# Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ?



## Muradk

Who was the best fighter pilot ever? This is a question often debated, and never settled. Manfred von Richtoven (better known as the Red Baron of World War I) is one such contender. Another is Erich Hartmann, who is the all-time kills leader with 352 in World War II. Was it David McCampbell, who shot down nine aircraft in a single sortie on October 24, 1944? A case could be made for each of them, but the fact is, one cannot really determine who the best of all time was.

Over 5,400 pilots have become aces, and they have only one thing in common: Shooting down five or more enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat. Not much else exists. In the ninety-one years of air combat (from World War I to the present), the aircraft have advanced from the Sopwith Camel to the F-22. The skills needed to become an ace have changed, and so has the nature of air combat. In the days of Richtoven and Hartmann, many of the kills were with machine guns. This held through the Korean War, but the planes were getting faster through each war (from 190 kilometers per hour for the Sopwith Camel to 635 kilometers per hour for the Me-109 flown by Hartmann to 1,091 kilometers per hour for the F-86F that dominated the skies over Korea). Then, in Vietnam, missiles began to enter the fray, allowing kills to be done from as far as 18 kilometers away with the AIM-9 Sidewinder. Today, the AMRAAM and other missiles allow kills to be made without even seeing the opposing aircraft (from as far as 70 kilometers away in the case of the AMRAAM).

Even during a war, the circumstances faced by these aces were different. Hartmann was in constant combat from 1942 on &#226;&#8364;&#8220; most of it against Russian pilots. This was a contrast to the American practice of constantly sending experienced combat pilots, like John S. Thach (inventor of the &#226;&#8364;&#339;Thach weave&#226;&#8364;&#157, back to train new pilots. Thach had only seven kills, but the Thach weave still worked twenty years after the end of World War II, when propeller driven A-1 Skyraiders used it to shoot down a MiG-17 jets.

Other good pilots were shot down (like Thomas J. Lynch, who had 20 kills, Neel Kearby, with 22 kills, and Tommy McGuire, with 38 kills), and killed. Others had tours cut short for other reasons (Tom Lanphier, John W. Mitchell, and Rex Barber had their combat tours cut short after the mission when Lanphier shot down the airplane carrying Isoroku Yamamoto).
Also, very few of these top aces faced their contemporaries. Many of McCampbell&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s victims were downed in 1944, when most of Japan&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s best pilots had already been killed in battle, and the new ones had been barely trained. The only definitive instance of the top aces of two countries at war facing off in single combat was the dogfight between Randall &#226;&#8364;&#339;Duke&#226;&#8364;&#157; Cunningham (4 kills for the United States) and Nguyen ("Colonel Tomb") Toon (13 kills for North Vietnam) on May 10, 1972. Cunningham won that engagement, becoming the first American ace of the Vietnam War. The Cunningham-Toon dogfight was also exceptional in that both pilots saw each other and engaged in a dogfight.

United States Air Force studies in the wake of the Vietnam War (the most famous being the Red Baron study) indicated that 80 percent of the pilots killed never knew that they were a target until their killer opened fire. Hartmann estimated that a similar percentage of his victims never knew he was there until he opened fire. The results of Red Baron, which were in keeping with the observations of other American aces, led to the concept of maintaining situational awareness (knowing exactly where you are, and where everyone else is). Probably one of the most valuable tools for American pilots is JTIDS (Joint Tactical Information Data System) &#226;&#8364;&#8220; a datalink that gives the pilot a good situation report, telling him what other pilots (and planes like the E-3) are seeing. Pilots testing JTIDS on the F-15 reported drastic increases in their situational awareness &#226;&#8364;&#8220; in an exercise, they took on F-15s and E-3s without JTIDS, and achieved a 4-to-1 kill ratio in their favor, mostly because the pilots with JTIDS knew where the friendly planes &#226;&#8364;&#8220; and the adversaries &#226;&#8364;&#8220; were, and could sort out who was going to target which &#226;&#8364;&#339;bandit&#226;&#8364;&#157; a lot quicker than the ones without.

These variables (including the addition of tools like JTIDS) will explain why the best fighter pilot in history will never be determined definitively. One might be able to determine the best of an era or a war (in the case of Vietnam, Cunningham bested the best pilot on the other side), but even then, it will be the subject of debate for years &#226;&#8364;&#8220; as long as there are aviation enthusiasts.

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## JK!

Heres my choice



> His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of the Victoria Cross to Lieut, (actg. Capt.) Ferdinand Maurice Felix West, M.C., - Royal Air Force (formerly of the Special Reserve, Royal Munster Fusiliers), in recognition of his outstanding bravery in aerial combat.
> 
> Captain West, while engaging hostile troops at a low altitude far over the enemy lines, was attacked by seven aircraft. Early in the engagement one of his legs was partially severed by an explosive bullet, and fell powerless into the controls, rendering the machine for the time unmanageable. Lifting his disabled leg, he regained control of the machine, and, although wounded in the other leg, he, with surpassing bravery and devotion to duty, manoeuvred his machine so skilfully that his observer was enabled to get several good bursts into the enemy machines, which drove them away. Captain West then, with rare courage, and determination, desperately wounded as he was, brought his machine over our lines and landed safely. Exhausted by his exertions, he fainted, but on regaining consciousness insisted on writing his report.


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## x_man

Well, my vote goes for the *General Chuck Yeager *...he had bit of everything to offer...He was a great test pilot, he was also an ace (with only 5 or 6 kills I believe) and he was really famous for one thing, taking the X-1 (not X-15) past Mach 1 in 1947. Officially, he was the first man to cross the sound barrier.......He had broken several ribs (fell from the horse while chasing his wife) few days before he crossed Mach 1.0....... In December 1963, Yeager was testing a Lockheed Starfighter F-104 when it unexpectedly spun out of control at well over 100,000 feet. Although Yeager fought to regain control, he could not and had to eject at about 8,500 feet. While ejecting, his ejection seat smashed into his helmet, tore open his visor, and the flame from his seat's ejector rocket severely burned him. Although Yeager parachuted to safety, he required several skin grafts. The incident undoubtedly helped bolster his tough and determined reputation. He is a typical bad *** attitude pilot...

Yeager is almost 85 and still doesnt miss an opportunity to hop into a fast jet...... There have been many other pilots out there much better at their trade than Yeager was. But, Yeager just happened to be in the right place at the right time and got a lot of notoriety for his accomplishments.

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## Myth_buster_1

my vote for....
Saif-ul-Azam 
even though more capable pilots exists in PAF history and still today but i am just proud to say he is the only pilot with 3 Israeli kill... no other pilot has achieved this feat!

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## TexasJohn

Muradk,

This could be an interesting thread. We should first identify which skills in which pilot over the years were absolute baseline. Ex: The Red Baron HAD to be good with his machine gun AND being able to fly his plane.

What about modern pilots? What skills are an absolute for a Ace today? I'd be curious to know what you think.

Hope I teased your mind..

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## Muradk

TexasJohn said:


> Muradk,
> 
> This could be an interesting thread. We should first identify which skills in which pilot over the years were absolute baseline. Ex: The Red Baron HAD to be good with his machine gun AND being able to fly his plane.
> 
> What about modern pilots? What skills are an absolute for a Ace today? I'd be curious to know what you think.
> 
> Hope I teased your mind..



You did I am writing it give me a few hours. I want to Quote someone.


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## niaz

I have read many accounts of WW1 and WWII, Korean and Vietnam wars along with aviation books. IMO it is a toss between Chuck Yeager and Douglas Bader. They were both innovators and pilots with exceptional skills. Douglas Bader devised new fighter tactics even though he was using artificial legs during most of the Battle of Britain. 

For sheer courage I would go for Douglas Bader.

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## Muradk

niaz said:


> I have read many accounts of WW1 and WWII, Korean and Vietnam wars along with aviation books. IMO it is a toss between Chuck Yeager and Douglas Bader. They were both innovators and pilots with exceptional skills. Douglas Bader devised new fighter tactics even though he was using artificial legs during most of the Battle of Britain.
> 
> For sheer courage I would go for Douglas Bader.



Naiz Sahib :
Do you know that PAF holds one record which has not been broken till today, The record is the first fighter pilot to fly Supersonic Mach 2 with artificial leg or in other words first pilot to fly F-16, FT-6 and artificial leg.

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## Skywalker

Muradk said:


> Naiz Sahib :
> Do you know that PAF holds one record which has not been broken till today, The record is the first fighter pilot to fly Supersonic Mach 2 with artificial leg or in other words first pilot to fly F-16, FT-6 and artificial leg.



Murad sb,

I am anxiously waiting to know about this courageous pilot which is definitly a feather in PAF's thorn.

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## x_man

Muradk said:


> Naiz Sahib :
> Do you know that PAF holds one record which has not been broken till today, The record is the first fighter pilot to fly Supersonic Mach 2 with artificial leg or in other words first pilot to fly F-16, FT-6 and artificial leg.



Sir, not very sure, but are you referring to Air Cdr Dotani ?


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## Muradk

x_man said:


> Sir, not very sure, but are you referring to Air Cdr Dotani ?



Yes Air Cdre MHK Dotani. Do you know off him?


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## fatman17

TexasJohn said:


> Muradk,
> 
> This could be an interesting thread. We should first identify which skills in which pilot over the years were absolute baseline. Ex: The Red Baron HAD to be good with his machine gun AND being able to fly his plane.
> 
> What about modern pilots? What skills are an absolute for a Ace today? I'd be curious to know what you think.
> 
> Hope I teased your mind..



Dear Sir,

I am not an expert being a ground hugger (PA) but shouldnt we compare in terms of which pilot or his actions have had the greatest impact on his service and subsequently the psyche of his countrymen!

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## QADRI

i don't know why there is no vote for M.M Alam...o man he destoryed 5 IAF crafts in just 30 seconds which is still an unbreakable record.

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## shehbazi2001

The crown of the best fighter pilot ever shall remain with the Erich Hartmann. Perhaps till the top 20, there are only german pilots. There may be many legendary leaders, inspirers and courageous pilots but still the crown goes to one with maximum kills simply because the primary job of a fighter pilot is to destroy enemy aircraft, even leadership and motivation are secondary. Now there may be many capable pilots who never got the chance to prove their skills but unfortunately without proof nothing can be claimed. 

As some other memeber also pointed out, we can still talk of best jet fighter pilot or best pilots in specific wars. The top scorer in jet age is Goira Esptein of IDF/AF with 17 kills, more than being a triple ace.

Here I am presenting some of the few famous names in the categories of leaders, inspirers and shooters from Pakistan, as I think. Everyone is important in its place. Without the permission of leaders, potential shooters cant prove their skills. I have done a quick classification according to my limited knowledge and I may have missed many great names. There may be many unsung heroes who never came to the limelight.

*
Shooters*

M M Alam, Saif-ul-Azam, Fl Offr Shams of No.14 squadron who shot three IAF fighters (1971), Khalid Mahmood, Hamid Qadri (both kills by guns). There is no kill like a gun kill and among fighter pilots,a gun kill is highly respected.

*Leaders*

Masroor Hussain,M Z Masood,Fawad S Hussain,Hakimullah, Sarfarz Rafiqui 
*
Inspirers
*
Fl Lt Shams who flew wartime missions in B-57 with kidneys stones (1965), Pilot Offr Rashid Minhas, MHK Dotani, Alauddin Butch. Also a ground officer of No.14 Sqn who was not GDP but flew air combat mission and embraced shadat (I forgot his name).


Alam and Saif were not tall and thus could better tolerate gs than others having more height. Douglas Badder flew with artificial legs and even it was said that he could pull more gs (hence tight turns) because of absence of legs. Normally blood goes down from head towards the legs during pulling positive gs. 

Pilots are lucky as compared to submarine, ship or tank commanders because they take the credit of kills all alone. The risk levels are almost the same for everyone.

Despite all the stories of courage and valour, Pakistan is lacking aces with just one in the history. India seems to be worse than Pakistan by not having a single ace. At least I dont know any Indian ace and I would like to know if there is someone. During Vietnam war, the USAF was under immense pressure to produce ace as the US Navy had produced several aces already and there was a race towards maximum aces.

The word "ace" is also used for the tank commander if he has destroyed the required number of tanks but it has been never used (as I know) for submarine skipper or ship captain. Perhaps destroying five subs or five ships looks extremely difficult. But at the same time, there were many german U-boat commanders who destroyed too many ships during Atlantic convoy war.

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## Blackpearl

Yesterday, i saw a programe on History Channel, 'Dogfight'
It was based on Col Giora Epstein's action in 1973 Arab Israel war.
The programme explains how 4 Mirages of Israel fought against 22 Egypt Mig-21s. The whole aerial tactics was beautifully animated and explained. Epstein scored 4 kills in this classic battle.
I wish, History channel also make such programmes on PAF pilots, especially on Air Commodore MM Alam.

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## fatman17

shehbazi2001 said:


> The crown of the best fighter pilot ever shall remain with the Erich Hartmann. Perhaps till the top 20, there are only german pilots. There may be many legendary leaders, inspirers and courageous pilots but still the crown goes to one with maximum kills simply because the primary job of a fighter pilot is to destroy enemy aircraft, even leadership and motivation are secondary. Now there may be many capable pilots who never got the chance to prove their skills but unfortunately without proof nothing can be claimed.
> 
> As some other memeber also pointed out, we can still talk of best jet fighter pilot or best pilots in specific wars. The top scorer in jet age is Goira Esptein of IDF/AF with 17 kills, more than being a triple ace.
> 
> Here I am presenting some of the few famous names in the categories of leaders, inspirers and shooters from Pakistan, as I think. Everyone is important in its place. Without the permission of leaders, potential shooters cant prove their skills. I have done a quick classification according to my limited knowledge and I may have missed many great names. There may be many unsung heroes who never came to the limelight.
> 
> *
> Shooters*
> 
> M M Alam, Saif-ul-Azam, Fl Offr Shams of No.14 squadron who shot three IAF fighters (1971), Khalid Mahmood, Hamid Qadri (both kills by guns). There is no kill like a gun kill and among fighter pilots,a gun kill is highly respected.
> 
> *Leaders*
> 
> Masroor Hussain,M Z Masood,Fawad S Hussain,Hakimullah, Sarfarz Rafiqui
> *
> Inspirers
> *
> Fl Lt Shams who flew wartime missions in B-57 with kidneys stones (1965), Pilot Offr Rashid Minhas, MHK Dotani, Alauddin Butch. Also a ground officer of No.14 Sqn who was not GDP but flew air combat mission and embraced shadat (I forgot his name).
> 
> 
> Alam and Saif were not tall and thus could better tolerate gs than others having more height. Douglas Badder flew with artificial legs and even it was said that he could pull more gs (hence tight turns) because of absence of legs. Normally blood goes down from head towards the legs during pulling positive gs.
> 
> Pilots are lucky as compared to submarine, ship or tank commanders because they take the credit of kills all alone. The risk levels are almost the same for everyone.
> 
> Despite all the stories of courage and valour, Pakistan is lacking aces with just one in the history. *India seems to be worse than Pakistan by not having a single ace. At least I dont know any Indian ace and I would like to know if there is someone*. During Vietnam war, the USAF was under immense pressure to produce ace as the US Navy had produced several aces already and there was a race towards maximum aces.
> 
> The word "ace" is also used for the tank commander if he has destroyed the required number of tanks but it has been never used (as I know) for submarine skipper or ship captain. Perhaps destroying five subs or five ships looks extremely difficult. But at the same time, there were many german U-boat commanders who destroyed too many ships during Atlantic convoy war.




give them time they will make one up!


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## Muradk

Ouch Ouch that hurts

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## su-47

i think the greatest fighter pilot ever was Eric Hartmann. aside from shooting down 352 aircraft, he was also never shot out of the sky, which is remarkable considering he was fighting over a period of over 3 years against heavy odds. he also never lost a wingman. if that doesnt speak for itself, i dunno what does. and he was flying against russian Yaks which were considerably more advanced than his Messerschmitt Bf-109.

NB: I made a mistake. hartmann did lose a wingman. he once made a claim that he was proud of never losing a wingman, but later recounted an event where he lost one wingman.

But even then, losing only one wingman in over 3 years of intense fighting against heavy odds is still almost impossible.

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## timmy

Just stumbled across in what has to be, and has the potential to be one of the most captivating forums on the net. This discussion, debate of "Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever" can go on for eternity...of course there can be a list of "Top Ten" Top Guns of all times belonging to different jet ages, from different countries, having the most ferocious of dog fights from different eras. 

No doubt the Red Baron will top the listfollowed by a few handful of other German and British WWI and WWII aces!!! However since I am familiar with a name that has come up i.e. Air Comdr (R) Dotani...I would like to share some of my experiences when I came across one of his course-mates at a friends place, who flew with him during PAFs High-Mark 85/86 exercise. We were reading the book 14 Squadron: The Tail Choppers - Celebrating 50 Years of Excellence...my eyes popped-out when I read that he is the only Fighter Pilot in the world who flew an F-16 with one leg (he lost his other leg in an accident), thus making him the only Fighter Pilot in the world to not only fly a Supersonic jet but also become a member of the elite 9-G club. The only other pilot to have flown with artificial leg/legs was Douglas Bader from the RAF during WWII. He flew Spitfireswhereas Air Comdr Dotani flew the F-16! I was told that he flew more missions in the 1971 War than anyone elsesometimes flying almost 3/4 missions a day, and those too alonegoing on CAPventuring across the border for spy missions over Indian Air Fieldsetc...mixing up with old veterans and exchanging anecdotes is something I love...one gets that feeling of having a trip down the memory lane...and that film starts rolling in your mind of how the wars were fought and how Fighter Pilots learn and love to play with fire!!!

I hope someone else can shed some more light on the Red Barons personal diary (if he left any!) or even on Douglas Baders WWII featsor even Air Comdr Dotanis Fighting Falcon flight (who by the way also shot down a Gnat/Hunter or two!!!).

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## x_man

I happened to meet Air Cdre Dotani at Rawalpindi back in 1986/87....full of life and a legend....Just to put word into picture , he is standing on extreme right..



As far as the PAFs records are concerned , there are many..

First ever loop of four B-57s..

First formation loop of sixteen F-86s

First ever capture of an enemy fighter from another fighter ( IAF GNATs force landing by F-104s) 

Feat of MM Alam needs no explanation...

Saif ul Azams kills during Arab-Israel war..

First ever shooting down of a UAV from a fighter aircraft..

I can go on and on......With so limited resources and always pitched against heavy odds, it never let us down.....You guys should be proud of your Airforce...

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## fatman17

timmy said:


> Just stumbled across in what has to be, and has the potential to be one of the most captivating forums on the net. This discussion, debate of "Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever" can go on for eternity...of course there can be a list of "Top Ten" Top Guns of all times belonging to different jet ages, from different countries, having the most ferocious of dog fights from different eras.
> 
> No doubt the Red Baron will top the listfollowed by a few handful of other German and British WWI and WWII aces!!! However since I am familiar with a name that has come up i.e. Air Comdr (R) Dotani...I would like to share some of my experiences when I came across one of his course-mates at a friends place, who flew with him during PAFs High-Mark 85/86 exercise. We were reading the book 14 Squadron: The Tail Choppers - Celebrating 50 Years of Excellence...my eyes popped-out when I read that he is the only Fighter Pilot in the world who flew an F-16 with one leg (he lost his other leg in an accident), thus making him the only Fighter Pilot in the world to not only fly a Supersonic jet but also become a member of the elite 9-G club. The only other pilot to have flown with artificial leg/legs was Douglas Bader from the RAF during WWII. He flew Spitfireswhereas Air Comdr Dotani flew the F-16! I was told that he flew more missions in the 1971 War than anyone elsesometimes flying almost 3/4 missions a day, and those too alonegoing on CAPventuring across the border for spy missions over Indian Air Fieldsetc...mixing up with old veterans and exchanging anecdotes is something I love...one gets that feeling of having a trip down the memory lane...and that film starts rolling in your mind of how the wars were fought and how Fighter Pilots learn and love to play with fire!!!
> 
> I hope someone else can shed some more light on the Red Barons personal diary (if he left any!) or even on Douglas Baders WWII featsor even Air Comdr Dotanis Fighting Falcon flight (who by the way also shot down a Gnat/Hunter or two!!!).



who was *the Blue Max!* or was it a fictional figure in a movie starring George Peppard.


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## Muradk

Air Cdre MHK Dotani's Fighting falcon Fight.
In 1986 he went for High Mark and the the OC Flying at sargodha Challenged him 1 VS 1 in a dogfight who was his student who had 1000 hr on F-16s, So the bet was that who ever losses will get lunch for CCS, 9 and 11 Sqd and they both agreed to it. It took Dotani 48 sec to get the OC flying in his gun sights. I have that photo I will post it on this thread you can see a smile on Dotani's face and the OC flying you can see his face and tell he got his *** kicked.

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## blain2

Sir post the picture. Also do you know anything about Sqn Ldr Sameen Mazhar?
Interview with Squadron Leader Sameen Mazhar

Seems to be a very proficient fighter pilot as well (Last I heard he had left PAF for greener pastures).

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## blain2

x_man said:


> .You guys should be proud of your Airforce...



Sir, I think inside of Pakistan, there is not a service more admired and respected than the PAF...I say this even though I always have had a bias towards the PA for a multitude of reasons..

I guess this "against all odds" history and the "underdog" persona of PAF endear it to the masses.

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## Muradk

These photos have been given to me by Dotani as a gift to Defence PK , NEO Please do put your water mark .
The first was taken in 1986 when he flew the F-16 And broke the record sitting with the OC flying.





Second : Dotani being introduced to CAS of Bangladesh by ACM Hakimullah




about Mazhar: fighter flying is not a easy thing it takes a toll out of you and if you don't remain physically fit you start getting all kinds of medical problems specially heart problem. That is why a lot of good pilots have left PAF because they could not keep up with the physical.
Just look at the example above Dotani has one artificial leg and PAF said no flying but he stayed in PAF got him self back into shape , he used to run 15 miles every day and proved to PAF that he is physically fit to fly and people used to make fun of him the day he sat in the cockpit of F-16 and F-6 he shoot 12 CCS Instructors in one day, I wish you should have seen there faces I was present there, the same people who used to laugh came to him and said teach us this move teach us that move.

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## x_man

In the first pic, is Air Cdre Dotani sitting with Late AVM Razzaq?? Sir, why dont you also invite Air Cdre Dotani to join Pakistan Def.....if he can spare some time , it will be great to have him here...

*Blain*...Sqn Ldr Sameen left airforce probably in 1996/97 due to his medical condition...In past 10 years or so, too many pilots got permanent unfit due to heart problems, high blood pressure, high sugar levels, migraine etc etc....Systems getting complex and the pilot workload increasing....Also due to cable/internet , after long working hours people prefer staying indoors , instead of getting out and doing any physical activity....as Sir Murad K said, fighter flying looks and feels good, but it does take heavy toll on your body in a long run.....

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## Muradk

x_man said:


> In the first pic, is Air Cdre Dotani sitting with Late AVM Razzaq?? Sir, why dont you also invite Air Cdre Dotani to join Pakistan Def.....if he can spare some time , it will be great to have him here...
> 
> *Blain*...Sqn Ldr Sameen left airforce probably in 1996/97 due to his medical condition...In past 10 years or so, too many pilots got permanent unfit due to heart problems, high blood pressure, high sugar levels, migraine etc etc....Systems getting complex and the pilot workload increasing....Also due to cable/internet , after long working hours people prefer staying indoors , instead of getting out and doing any physical activity....as Sir Murad K said, fighter flying looks and feels good, but it does take heavy toll on your body in a long run.....



yes Its Late AVM Razzaq ( Died with Musaf ) his Student from Risalpure and 9 OCU.

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## BATMAN

Before the photos being posted, I was wondering if we have more pilots flying with artificial legs.
Sheer inspiration. I hope new pilots will not waste the opportunity of learning from the legend as and when possible.

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## Neo

Muradk said:


> Just look at the example above Dotani has one artificial leg and PAF said no flying but he stayed in PAF got him self back into shape , he used to run 15 miles every day and proved to PAF that he is physically fit to fly and people used to make fun of him the day he sat in the cockpit of F-16 and F-6 he shoot 12 CCS Instructors in one day, I wish you should have seen there faces I was present there, the same people who used to laugh came to him and said teach us this move teach us that move.



Well there's my vote/nomination for the best pilot the world's ever seen: Dotani!

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## araz

Neo and MuradK .
Whereas I am becoming increasingly inclined towards A Cdre Dhotani, I still believe that The Red Baron was perhaps the best and most famous. MuradK Sahib, you have not commented on MM Alam. What did you think about him. Although the public fora are full of praise for him, could I possibly request your technical input regarding his career and capability.
Thanks in advance
Araz

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## Muradk

araz said:


> Neo and MuradK .
> Whereas I am becoming increasingly inclined towards A Cdre Dhotani, I still believe that The Red Baron was perhaps the best and most famous. MuradK Sahib, you have not commented on MM Alam. What did you think about him. Although the public fora are full of praise for him, could I possibly request your technical input regarding his career and capability.
> Thanks in advance
> Araz



Have you noticed that all are heros and legends of PAF never made it 2 stars or 3star, well in our days back in the 80s becoming a Air Cdre was a very big thing now in PAF we have more AVM's them Air Cdre's.
After 65, 71 one word *Jealousy*, If you take out the list of the officers who fought with valour in 65, 71 they all retired before time and some never got promoted. Another word ( Hum Piyala hum Niwaly) they did not like politics they were from a very different breed. When they found out that they need to lick the other guys balls to get promoted they said go to hell.
I can give you countless examples just take MM Alam in the aviation community every one knows him, you only need to wisper MM and they will say Alam. Take Cecil Chaudhry a hero who doesn't know him but never got promoted. I think at times PAF has not been fair with its heros.
MM Alam was is a great man I know him since we were at the academy, strap him up in an F-86 and he will Chew your *** in seconds he was without fear and that makes a fighter pilot very dangerous. I remember he got Court Marshalled for doing a victory roll in front of Shah of Iran during the Demo but was excused, later on he proved to the world in 65 what he can do. Every one who has a name in PAF has been Court Marshalled one time or the other but excused later for there services, all of them were young and Hot shots.
Let me give you a live example look back that the photo where MHk Dotani is shaking hands with the CAS of Bangladesh and Hakim sahib pointed him finger at Dotani and telling the bangladesh CAS about his Record, while he was talking look at the 3rd person standing at his left side no names just look at his face the way he is looking at Dotani. That explains everything.

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## fatman17

Muradk said:


> Have you noticed that all are heros and legends of PAF never made it 2 stars or 3star, well in our days back in the 80s becoming a Air Cdre was a very big thing now in PAF we have more AVM's them Air Cdre's.
> After 65, 71 one word *Jealousy*, If you take out the list of the officers who fought with valour in 65, 71 they all retired before time and some never got promoted. Another word ( Hum Piyala hum Niwaly) they did not like politics they were from a very different breed. When they found out that they need to lick the other guys balls to get promoted they said go to hell.
> I can give you countless examples just take MM Alam in the aviation community every one knows him, you only need to wisper MM and they will say Alam. Take Cecil Chaudhry a hero who doesn't know him but never got promoted. I think at times PAF has not been fair with its heros.
> MM Alam was is a great man I know him since we were at the academy, strap him up in an F-86 and he will Chew your *** in seconds he was without fear and that makes a fighter pilot very dangerous. I remember he got Court Marshalled for doing a victory roll in front of Shah of Iran during the Demo but was excused, later on he proved to the world in 65 what he can do. Every one who has a name in PAF has been Court Marshalled one time or the other but excused later for there services, all of them were young and Hot shots.
> Let me give you a live example look back that the photo where MHk Dotani is shaking hands with the CAS of Bangladesh and Hakim sahib pointed him finger at Dotani and telling the bangladesh CAS about his Record, while he was talking look at the 3rd person standing at his left side no names just look at his face the way he is looking at Dotani. That explains everything.



Dear Sir,
You have hit the hammer on the nail! i couldnt agree more with your assessment! we as a nation dont know how to honour our heroes.

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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> Dear Sir,
> You have hit the hammer on the nail! i couldnt agree more with your assessment! we as a nation dont know how to honour our heroes.



Sir I would venture to say that we as a nation do not know how to honour anything! Many who should have been recognized were marginalized, and those who deserved to be side tracked made it to places that one could not imagine them in...as such we have faced debacles like the war in 1971.

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## araz

And yet we honour all the thieves who loot and pillage the country.What a shame. Avery dear friend and just like an elder brother was in the infantry . Retired as a lt Colonel. He told Aslam Beg that he wanted to retire because he wanted to feed his children and that was very difficult on his salary. Aslam Beg wanted him to go to Staff college for further courses prior to promotion. This is the plight of an honest man in Pakistan.Sad state of affairs
Araz

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## shehbazi2001

*Three Ace Brothers of Luftwaffe*

Whenever we talk of best ever fighter pilots, we should not forget Adolf Galland. He holds the distinction of being the youngest general of either side of the WW-II.

While most of us know Galland for his 104 kills and rapid promotions, I want to point out one more thing. Thats related to his brothers. His two out of three brothers were also ace pilots called Wilhelm and Paul, with 54 and 17 kills respectively. This way, they became the three ace brothers in the world of military aviation.


Interview with World War II Luftwaffe General and Ace Pilot Adolf Galland » HistoryNet - From the World&#039;s Largest History Magazine Publisher

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## Muradk

B]Jorma Sarvanto and six kills in five minutes.
Written by Ossi Juntunen .
Above - a photo of destroyed DB-3 M bomber from 45th DBAP, January of 1940. In the text there is a snap of this story hero, luutnantti (Lt.) Jorma Kalevie Sarvanto, in cokpit of his Fokker D-XXI "FR-97".[/B]

Jorma Sarvanto was born in Turku, 22nd Aug. 1912, when Finland still was an autonomous Grand Duchy of the Russian Imperium. His father was Kaarle Konstantin Sarvanto, a patriot, tailor by trade and his mother Amanda Gustafsson.
Growing up in independent Finland, the young Sarvanto was interested in aviation and the glorious Aces of the First WW. He read all that he could find about von Richthofen, Ball, Guynemer and others. Participation in voluntary Civil Guard duty strengthened the patriotism of the young man, taught him to shoot and prepared him for military career.
As a person, he was described by his fellow pilots as introverted, pensive and calm - he was an exception among the more extroverted fighter pilots. His nickname was "Zamba" due to his musical hobby: he played saxophone and could use a guitar, too.
His flight commander estimated him as follows: "Lt. Sarvanto is by character considerate yet not slow, conscientious and has a military bearing." He also was found fit to be a division leader.

The 'Winter War' was being fought and it was on 6 January 1940. At dawn (about 8:30) the weather in Southern Finland was fairly favourable to enemy bombers. The cloud cover at 300 to 400 m was patchy, providing enough visibility for orientation, but also protecting bombers from surveillance and interceptors, and then haze up to 4000m.
Four Fokker D-XXI fighters with ski undercarrige of the 4th flight of the 24th Squadron were located in the Utti Air Base. The reason that the Flight was there was that during the first days of the year Finnish intelligence had intercepted radio messages from Soviet weather recce a/c flying over JyvÃ¤skylÃ¤ and Kuopio. This indicated that the enemy had targeted these towns. Col.Lt Lorenz, the commander of the 2nd Wing, instructed Maj Magnusson to place his fighters accordingly.
At 9:30 the air surveillance reported enemy planes. The Fokkers were sent in pairs to intercept, but due to poor visibility the enemies could be encountered by chance only.
At the same time Lieutenant Pehr-Erik "Pelle" (his nickname is shortened from the original, as ï¿½Bobï¿½ from ï¿½Robertï¿½) Sovelius was ferrying FR-92 to Utti from Lappeenranta where the fighter had been undergoing periodic major maintenance in one of the few warm hangars of the FAF. As usual the machine guns of the Fokker were loaded even though it was to be a ferrying mission.
Sovelius was near the base as at 10.10 hrs he heard in his headphones: - 'Enemy planes north of Hamina at 3000m!'.
He saw eight DB-3 bombers flying in an abreast formation right in his direction.
Sovelusï¿½ battle report of the engagement:lace of the aerial battle: ï¿½Northern edge of the Utti airfield.ï¿½
Enemy a/c: ï¿½ DBï¿½
Fate of the enemy a/c: ï¿½Dived burning to the ground between Utti and Kaipiainen, North of the railway line.ï¿½
Course of the aerial battle: ï¿½On a ferrying flight Lappeenranta-Utti I was informed by radio about the movement of enemy a/c at the Southern fringe of the Haukkasuo swamp, eight a/c, on a course to North from Kotka, flying altitude 3000 m. I intercepted the formation on ï¿½collision courseï¿½. Having climbed above the enemy I half-rolled my Fokker at the left wing a/c. I shot the gunner at 300m and then approached to a distance of 100m. At that moment the third a/c from the left fired at me, so I gave her a brief burst and the gunner fell silent.
Then I fired brief bursts (at the bomber) and the a/c caught fire. The left engine and wing were burning. The a/c crashed.ï¿½
Ammunition consumption: ï¿½500 pcs.ï¿½
Eventual evidence: ï¿½A/c found between Utti and Kaipiainen near the railway line.ï¿½
Other obervations: ï¿½The enemy a/c supported each other by flanking fire. My fighter took 8 hits.ï¿½
Signed by : Lt. P.-E. Sovelius Aircraft: FR-92
The other seven bombers continued northwards, and being almost as fast as the Fokker D.XXI they escaped among the clouds and haze. The enemy must have had intelligence information about the Utti base, the ï¿½homeï¿½ of the Finnish fighter aviation, yet these bombers flew almost over it.
The enemy bombing target was Kuopio, population 22000, situated 400 km from the Southern coast at the railway line, which made the navigation easier.
Air raid alert was sounded in Kuopio at 10.52 hours. The town, totally lacking AA defence, was shrouded in frosty mist. The population hurried to take cover in hastily dug splinter shelters, cellars, holes in the ground or in the surrounding forest. Nine two-engined Soviet bombers flew over the town, failing to spot it. The enemy flew to the North, then turned and dropped 7 high explosive (HE) bombs and fired with machine guns. No actual damage was caused.
Immediately another enemy escadrille was spotted. It was recorded to comprise 6 twin-engined bombers. (This was the 6. DBAP intercepted by Sovelius.) They also at first flew over the town and turned back at SiilinjÃ¤rvi about 15 km to N. Now unfortunately wind had risen and scattered the mist. The enemy approached at an altitude of 1000 m, dropped 54 HE bombs and fired with machine guns. 35 houses were damaged, but only one person was killed ï¿½ by heart attack. ( Three ore lethal air raids followed later in January and February: 42 people were killed, hundreds wounded, 200 houses damaged or destroyed.) It was a terror raid, pure and simple.
The Fokker pilots at Utti kept their flying gear on and waited for the returning bombers. Lt. Sarvanto ordered his ground crew to keep his "FR-97", "white 2" warm (see profile in page bottom).
Message was received at 11:50 - '7 bombers flying south following the northern railway!'. The pilots of 4./LLv 24 climbed in their fighters, warmed up the engines and turned their radios on. Lieutenant Jorma Sarvanto listened to the radio traffic, soon he and his wingman (constituting one patrol) were ordered to take off. After take-off the wingman found that he had an engine problem (snow had clogged the engine air intake during take off) and he had to return. Lt. Sarvanto continued alone at the optimum rate of climb, direction N to meet the enemy.
The second pair (Lt. Sovelius and Sgt. Ikonen) took off after noticing that Lieutenant Sarvanto had to go alone, but Sarvanto had a good head start. Now the clouds had disappeared from the sky at Utti, and Sarvanto discovered the handsome formation of DB bomber bellies lit by dim sun shining through the haze. He counted seven silver coloured DB-3 bombers. To the left - a wedge of three, to the right - four abreast, all no farther than one plane length from each other. There was no fighter escort.
Sarvanto continued climbing, turning south by a right curve. For a moment he was within the range and sector of the bomber nose gunners, but remained unnoticed due to sun glare. When he was at the same altitude of 3000 m with the bombers, he was about 500m behind them. Sarvanto pursued the enemy at full power. He decided to attack the leftmost wing bomber, although the third from left was closest to him, to avoid getting into cross-fire from the rear gunners. At a distance of 300 m his plane vibrated unpleasantly - he had flown in a bomber gunner MG salvo.
The fighter pilot kept on approaching the bombers. At a distance of 20 (twenty) meters he aimed at the fuselage of his victim, the left wing bomber, and pressed the trigger briefly. The tracers hit the target. Next, he shifted his aim at the rear gunner of the tail bomber, and killed him. Lt. Sarvanto then carefully aimed at the right engine of the first bomber and fired a brief burst. The bomber's engine caught fire. He repeated the same maneouvre at the tail bomber with similar result. Two burning DB-3 bombers were leaving the formation.
Jorma Sarvanto cheered aloud and attacked the right wing of the formation while the bomber rear gunners blazed at his Fokker. He fired at each engine of the nearest bomber, making them smoke and forcing the bomber to leave the formation. Then he engaged the other bombers at a very close range. Each victim caught fire after two to three brief bursts of MG fire. Sarvanto glanced back - the latest smoking bomber was now in flames and diving to the ground.
Now Sarvanto decided to destroy every one of the DB-3 formation. Some burning bombers made a slow half-roll before diving down, another pulled up before diving down. All the time they were flying south, the sun shone red through the haze low in southern horizon unless dimmed by smoke from a burning enemy plane.
Bomber no.6 was much more resistant to his bullets. The Fokker wing guns were out of ammo by now, but finally the DB-3 caught fire, and Finnish pilot could engage the last bomber. He already had eliminated the rear gunner, so he could fly close to the target. He aimed at one engine and pressed the trigger. Not a single shot. Sarvanto pulled the loading lever and retried shooting, but again in vain. He had spent his ammunition. There was nothing to do but leave the bomber alone and return to the base.
Columns of black smoke hung in the air and burning bomber wrecks could be seen on the ground. Sarvanto checked his instruments, there was no damage to vital parts, but his radio was dead and the Fokker's wings resembled Swiss cheese When preparing for landing he found that the hydraulic pump for the landing flaps did not work, but he landed successfully despite that...
Luutnantti Sarvanto felt very satisified as he parked his Fokker, but he did not quite get out of the cockpit before his cheering ground crew grabbed him and threw him in the air. The flight lasted 25 minutes and the actual battle 5 minutes, during which he shot down 6 DB-3 bombers belonging to the 6th DBAP of the Soviet Air Force. Two Soviet airmen bailed out and were taken prisoners, but the sources do not mention their names. The mechanics counted 23 hits from the bomber rear gunners in FR-97, some of them near the cockpit, necessitating several weeks' repairs at the State Aircraft Factory.
The patrol that took off afterwards pursued the surviving bomber.

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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> Sir I would venture to say that we as a nation do not know how to honour anything! Many who should have been recognized were marginalized, and those who deserved to be side tracked made it to places that one could not imagine them in...as such we have faced debacles like the war in 1971.



_lean and mean soldiers but fat and lazy generals_ - quote by an israeli general on the state of the arab armies in 1967.

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## p2prada

TexasJohn said:


> Muradk,
> 
> This could be an interesting thread. We should first identify which skills in which pilot over the years were absolute baseline. Ex: The Red Baron HAD to be good with his machine gun AND being able to fly his plane.
> 
> *What about modern pilots? What skills are an absolute for a Ace today? I'd be curious to know what you think.*
> 
> Hope I teased your mind..




Modern pilots....it is no longer gun totting heroics like the hey days.
Today it is all about patience and team work.

During WW2, only human eyes were radars. Present day technology gives pilots time to come up with various strategies before engagements. Air war has become much more complex than before.


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## Blackpearl

p2prada said:


> Modern pilots....it is no longer gun totting heroics like the hey days.
> Today it is all about patience and team work.
> 
> During WW2, only human eyes were radars. Present day technology gives pilots time to come up with various strategies before engagements. Air war has become much more complex than before.



The basic requirement for a fighter pilot
*The Killer Instinct*......always, all the time.

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## Manticore

some ww1 aces 
View attachment 3658


the red barron was just 25! wow

View attachment 3659


View attachment 3660

age20?
View attachment 3661

View attachment 3667

age22


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## satishkumarcsc

Why isnt Oswald Bolcke mentioned here? C'mon he was one of the first persons to devise tactics for air combat. He needs to be mentioned here.

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## Manticore

Frenchman Ren&#233; Fonck, with 75 confirmed victories
View attachment 3663

British Empire fighter pilots were Mick Mannock with 50 confirmed kills
View attachment 3664

Canadian Billy Bishop credited with 72 victories
View attachment 3665

Oswald Boelcke, victor of 40 aerial engagements, was dead at age 25.
Boelcke is considered the father of the German fighter air force,as well as the "Father of Air Fighting Tactics"
View attachment 3666




a good link is this one
http://ingwer.blogbus.com/c2276140/

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/airwar.htm

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## spurdozer

I am not an expert here but I love reading about legendary pilots.
Although the Germans lost the war due to their stupid strategic mistakes, but Germans produced some of the best airmen.
*ManFred von Richthofen* aka Red Baron is one of the most famous fighting aces of World War 1, recorded nearly 80 aerial victories and died at a young age of 25 only.
*Erich Hartmann* aka The Black Devil is the best fighter pilot if the standard is taken to be number of air kills. He has been claimed the best fighter pilot by many military experts and officials.
*Gerhard Barkhorn* is the 2nd most successfull fighter pilot after Erich Hartmann with victories reported in the region of 300.
*Hans Joachim Marseille* aka Star of Africa was arguably one of the best pilots of WW II with nearly 158 kills to his name. He died due to a technical failure in his aircraft. Erich Hartmann regarded him 'THE BEST'.
*Adolf Galland* as already mentioned here by shehbazi sahab was the youngest General of either side of ww II. He scored 104 kills. 
*Heinrich Bar *one of the best airmen of Germany, scored nearly 200 kills.
*Walter Nowotny* born in Austria. He was the first person to reach the 250 kills milestone. He died following a crash after a reported engine failure.

n.b. One or Two figures of air kills taken from wikipedia, because I wasn't able to remember them. Thanks

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## Manticore

apart from the above ww1 aces

1]Karl Allmenroder (1896-1917) achieved 30 victories as an air ace with the German Air Service during the First World War.

2]Julius Arigi (1895-1981) was Austria-Hungary's second highest scoring air ace of the First World War (and its most highly decorated), with his 32 victories second only to Godwin Brumowski.

3]Captain Albert Ball (1896-1917) was Britain's highest scoring profile fighter pilot during World War One.44 victories

4]Francesco Baracca (1888-1918) was Italy's leading fighter pilot during World War One. Operating exclusively on the Italian Front Baracca notched up an impressive tally of 34 enemy aircraft, becoming his country's most successful airman of the war.*Having established himself as an accredited ace Baracca painted an image of a prancing horse upon his aircraft: it has been used since 1923 by Ferrari upon its racing cars.*


5]Paul B&#228;umer (1896-1927) was Germany's ninth-highest scoring fighter pilot of the First World War, achieving some 43 air successes in 1917 and 1918.

6]Andrew Frederick Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor (1894-1921) was South Africa's highest-scoring fighter pilot during World War One, with 54 victories.

7]Oliver Freiherr von Beaulieu-Marconnay (1898-1918) scored 25 victories as a leading German air ace of the First World War.

8]Fritz Otto Bernert (1893-1918) scored 27 victories as an air ace with the German Air Service between 1916-17, including five in the space of thirty minutes in April 1917


9]Rudolf Berthold (1891-1920), with 44 air victories, was one of Germany's highest-rated fighter pilots during World War One.


10]William Avery (Billy) Bishop (1884-1956) was Canada's highest-scoring fighter pilot of World War One, with 72 confirmed victories.


11]Leon Jean Pierre Bourjade (1889-1924) was a leading French air ace of the First World War, achieving some 28 aerial victories by the war's close.

12]Maurice Jean Paul Boyau (1888-1918) was a leading French so-called 'balloon buster' of the First World War.33kills

13]Godwin Brumowski (1889-1936) was Austria-Hungary's top-scoring fighter pilot of World War One.35kills

14]Lieutenant Franz Buchner (1898-1920) was a high-scoring German air ace of the First World War, achieving 40 'kills' during 1917 and 1918.

15]Albert Desbrisay Carter (1892-1919) was a leading Canadian air ace of the First World War with 29 'kills' to his credit between 1917-18.

16]William Gordon Claxton (1899-1967), a Canadian air ace, scored a remarkable 37 air victories in just 79 days during the war's final year.

17]Arthur Henry Cobby (1894-1955) served with the Australian Flying Corps (AFC) during the First World War, and achieved 29 victories as a fighter pilot.

18]Raymond Collishaw (1893-1975) was Canada's second-highest scoring fighter pilot during World War One, achieving 60 aircraft victories by the war's close, plus a further eight observation balloons.

19]Willy Coppens (1892-1986) was Belgium's highest-scoring fighter pilot during the First World War, scoring 37 victories by the war's close.

20]Roderic Dallas (1891-1918) was Australia's second-highest scoring air ace during World War One, with 32 victories to his credit.

21]Benno Fiala von Fernbrugg (1890-1964) was one of the Austro-Hungarian empire's highest-scoring air aces of the First World War with 28 victories to his credit.

22]Philip Fletcher Fullard (1897-1984) scored 40 victories (plus a further six probables) as a leading British air ace of the First World War.

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## Manticore

1]Captain Frederick Warrington Gillet (1895-1969) was America's second-highest scoring air ace of World War One, with his total of 26 victories bested only by Eddie Rickenbacker's 23.

2]Gabriel Fernand Charles Guerin (1892-1918) achieved 23 victories as a French air ace during the First World War.

3]Georges Marie Ludovic Jules Guynemer (1894-1917) was one of France's highest scoring fighter pilots during World War One, achieving 54 victories prior to his death on 11 September 1917.

4]Tom Falcon Hazell (1892-1946) scored 43 victories with the British Royal Flying Corps as an Irish airman between March 1917 and October 1918.

5]Lieutenant Josef Karl Peter Jacobs (1894-1978) was one of Germany's leading air aces of the First World War, with 48 enemy aircraft and observation balloon 'kills' to his credit.

6]Captain Elwyn Roy "Bo" King (1894-1941) achieved 26 aerial victories as an Australian fighter pilot during World War One.

7]Hans Kirschstein (1896-1918) scored some 27 victories as a German air ace during the First World War.

8]Frank Linke-Crawford (1893-1918) was a leading Austro-Hungarian fighter pilot during the First World War, amassing a total of 27 air victories prior to his death in action in July 1918.

9]Robert Alexander Little (1895-1918) was Australia's highest-scoring fighter pilot during World War One, with 47 confirmed victories.

10]Erich Lowenhardt (1897-1918) was one of the German Air Service&#8217;s highest-scoring fighter pilots of the First World War, with 54 victories prior to his death from an aerial collision in August 1918.

11] *Georges Felix Madon (1892-1924) remains surprisingly little-known for someone who clearly established himself as a leading French ace of the First World War, with a probable tall of over 100 'kills', of which some 41 were officially confirmed.*

12]Major Edward 'Mickey' Mannock (1887-1918) was Britain's highest scoring fighter pilot of World War One.73kills

13]Frederick Robert Gordon McCall (1896-1949) scored 35 confirmed victories as a Canadian air ace during 1918.

14James Thomas Byford McCudden (1895-1918) was a long-serving, high-scoring British fighter pilot during World War One.54kills

15]George Edward Henry "McIrish" McElroy (1893-1918) was one of Britain's top-scoring air aces (and Ireland's highest) of World War One, with 47 victories.

16]Lieutenant Colonel Andrew McKeever was one of Canada's highest-scoring air aces during the First World War, amassing some 31 victories 


17]Carl Menckhoff (1883-1948) was a noted German fighter pilot during the First World War, achieving a total of 39 victories during 1917 and 1918.

18]Charles Nungesser (1883-1927) was one of France's most successful fighter pilots of World War One.45kills

19]Armand Pinsard (1887-1953) was France's eighth highest-scoring air ace of the First World War, scoring 27 confirmed victories in total.

20]Francis Granger Quigley (1894-1918) scored 33 confirmed victories as a Canadian air ace during the First World War.

21]Arthur Percival Foley Rhys Davids DSO, MC With Bar (1897-1918) was a pilot on the Western Front during 1917.25kills

22]Lothar Siegfried Freiherr von Richthofen (1894-1922) scored 40 victories as a high-scoring German air ace during the First World War.

23]Eddie Rickenbacker (1890-1973) was America's top-scoring fighter pilot of World War One, with 26 victories

24]Lieutenant Fritz Rumey (1891-1918) was one of Germany's leading fighter pilots of the First World War, with 45 victories to his name.

25]Silvio Scaroni (1893-1977) was Italy's second-highest scoring air ace of the First World War, with his 26 confirmed victories bested only by Francesco Baracca's 34.

26]Ernst Udet (1896-1941) was a German fighter ace who achieved 62 victories during World War One.

27]Joseph Veltjens (1894-1943) scored 35 victories as a leading German air ace of the First World War.

28Werner Voss (1897-1917) was one of Manfred von Richthofen's closest rivals as an air ace during the 1916-17 period, with 48 victories to his credit.

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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> Have you noticed that all are heros and legends of PAF never made it 2 stars or 3star, well in our days back in the 80s becoming a Air Cdre was a very big thing now in PAF we have more AVM's them Air Cdre's.
> After 65, 71 one word *Jealousy*, If you take out the list of the officers who fought with valour in 65, 71 they all retired before time and some never got promoted. Another word ( Hum Piyala hum Niwaly) they did not like politics they were from a very different breed. When they found out that they need to lick the other guys balls to get promoted they said go to hell.
> I can give you countless examples just take MM Alam in the aviation community every one knows him, you only need to wisper MM and they will say Alam. Take Cecil Chaudhry a hero who doesn't know him but never got promoted. I think at times PAF has not been fair with its heros.
> MM Alam was is a great man I know him since we were at the academy, strap him up in an F-86 and he will Chew your *** in seconds he was without fear and that makes a fighter pilot very dangerous. I remember he got Court Marshalled for doing a victory roll in front of Shah of Iran during the Demo but was excused, later on he proved to the world in 65 what he can do. Every one who has a name in PAF has been Court Marshalled one time or the other but excused later for there services, all of them were young and Hot shots.
> Let me give you a live example look back that the photo where MHk Dotani is shaking hands with the CAS of Bangladesh and Hakim sahib pointed him finger at Dotani and telling the bangladesh CAS about his Record, while he was talking look at the 3rd person standing at his left side no names just look at his face the way he is looking at Dotani. That explains everything.



I have seen that picture on the DF, saved it to my computer then I watched it closely, That Particular person's eyes were really full of jealousy.

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## EyelessInGaza

timmy said:


> ........
> I hope someone else can shed some more light on the Red Baron&#8217;s personal diary (if he left any!) or even on Douglas Bader&#8217;s WWII feats&#8230;



Douglas Bader - read _Reach For The Sky_ by Paul Brickhill if you can get it.

Richthofen - go here to read his diary:

The Red Fighter Pilot




x_man said:


> .....
> As far as the PAFs records are concerned , there are many..
> 
> ...First ever capture of an enemy fighter from another fighter ( IAF GNATs force landing by F-104s)
> 
> ..........



There are many recorded stories of planes being forced down in WWI by Germans and the Allies. Don't have a link, but have read of a few incidents.



fatman17 said:


> who was *the Blue Max!* or was it a fictional figure in a movie starring George Peppard.



The Blue Max was a colloquial term given to the Pour Le Merite, the highest award for valour given by the German army until the end of WWI (after which Hitler instituted the Knights Cross series). There was also a pretty good movie by the same name.

On the subject of who was the best fighter pilot ever; it's a debate that will not end.

But for my money, WW I pilots had the most difficult challenges to surmount. Why? 

Because there only two types of WW I pilots - *flamers* and *jumpers*.


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## unstopabl3

Very informative post. Please keep the goodies coming!


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## Kamakazi 69

For me the greatest fighter pilot, or at least in my top 5 would have to include Egon Mayer.
He was a reasonably chivalrous fighter pilot too. Especially when you consider that this was a time when Russian pilots were ramming their planes into Luftwaffe fighters.


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## blain2

EyelessInGaza said:


> There are many recorded stories of planes being forced down in WWI by Germans and the Allies. Don't have a link, but have read of a few incidents.



I think the context is the jet age EIG.

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/29241-aviation-worldwar-movies.html


i didnt exactly know where to post it... however if you got any links please add them particularly of ww1 movies


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## unstopabl3

Nice addition "Antibody"

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## avmuneeb

Erich Hartmann


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## Muradk

adeshh said:


> Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
> 
> my best fighter pilot ever is here
> 
> please click here



Friend now a days its not how many kills you have but what flying skills do you have. You don't need to have a kill to be the best.

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## unstopabl3

Well said sir.


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## niaz

I am on annual vacation in London and having little else to do watch a lot of TV. I chanced to see a program about an Israeli fighter pilot called GIORA EPSTEIN. He has had 19 kills in various wars with the Arabs. The most interesting feat was a dog fight against a whole squadron of Syrian MIG 21&#8217;s with Epstein flying a Nesher ( Israeli built Mirage 5) in 1973 Yom Kuppur war. Epstein was flying alone thus had no wingman to watch his six. It was claimed that he took on 10 Migs simultaneously, shot down 4 and came out unscathed.

IMO a tail less delta such as Mirage-5 should theoritically be less manouverable than a Mig 21. If this actually happened, Giora Epstein must surely be the greatest fighter pilot ever!

Humbly request Hon. Murad to comment on the veracity of this extra ordinary claim.


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## Jabar 1

niaz said:


> I am on annual vacation in London and having little else to do watch a lot of TV. I chanced to see a program about an Israeli fighter pilot called GIORA EPSTEIN. He has had 19 kills in various wars with the Arabs. The most interesting feat was a dog fight against a whole squadron of Syrian MIG 21s with Epstein flying a Nesher ( Israeli built Mirage 5) in 1973 Yom Kuppur war. Epstein was flying alone thus had no wingman to watch his six. It was claimed that he took on 10 Migs simultaneously, shot down 4 and came out unscathed.
> 
> IMO a tail less delta such as Mirage-5 should theoritically be less manouverable than a Mig 21. If this actually happened, Giora Epstein must surely be the greatest fighter pilot ever!
> 
> 
> Naiz SB GIORA EPSTEIN is lying from his As- , I was there as a kid and
> Humbly request Hon. Murad to comment on the veracity of this extra ordinary claim.



Naiz Bahi GIORA EPSTEIN is lying his As- off I was there with my father he had 11 confirmed kills rest is all bullshit IAF at its best , He is the only pilot who had his claims without a witness, by is 11th kill the mirage was out of fuel and barley made it back.


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## Abasin Turi

sorry for posting my request here. for some weird resons am not allowed to make new posts.. anyway i need some help... is any one of you guys is a 65 or 71 war hero... am talking to pakistani war heros.. i need to conduct an interview for hilal.... please kindly hit me in my inbox... i wod be grateful... anyone please..??


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## stromtrooper

I think it depends upon circumstances. The jet pilot with most kills is a Israeli who retired in late 80s .He shot down 17 jets including mig 21 and Su7 from his mirageIII and IAI Nasher (copy of mirage IV) repectively with cannon fire and side windes


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## Wingman

Well Guys this discussion has taken a long time than expected, why dont we just stick Pakistani Pilots, firstly, then move to International Pilots...We figure out the performance of pakistani Pilots by the Wars they fought and by their skills other than war days...Some of writers in the forum have seen the real fights and some have not but surely they can judge each other's abilities, then we can make a final decision...


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## Wingman

A typing error occurred above........"why dont we just stick Pakistani Pilots"....Why don't we just stick to Pakistani Pilots.....means Discuss Pakistani Pilots First...

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## Wingman

Any one interested in talking about PAKISTANI PILOTS ONLY

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## Muradk

dreamer said:


> Any one interested in talking about PAKISTANI PILOTS ONLY



Any time you start I will follow.

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## duhastmish

I know this one called - muradk - good fighter - suppose to be one- sher ka bachha - from the stories i heard about him :Cheers:


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## gambit

I have been following this discussion and I think the discussion is seriously misguided. The word 'ever' is loaded. It imply for all time, past, present and future and it is inappropriate. No matter how good a pilot he is limited by his machine. The best machine of the current technology that is available to him. Saburo Sakai, one of Imperial Japan's best aces, admitted that if given a g-suit without training on what the device does, he would have crashed and burned. There is a serious science behind HUD symbology and this device would give Richard Bong, an American WW II ace, a serious case of information overload.

HUD basics

Technically speaking, it is 'Eyes Up Display' but 'HUD' is generally accepted by all.

Modern technology does not, as popularly believe, remove any pilot workload but shift them. Computerized flight control systems demand that the pilot shift his limited human resources to other areas such as precision ground attack as well as aerial combat. So called 'smart' weapons demand the pilot shift his limited human resources to devise ways to ingress heavily defended target areas. And so on.

The more appropriate discussion should be on who could be the best pilot of his era. For example...John Boyd...

John Boyd - USAF, The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of Air Warfare


> As an instructor at the Fighter Weapons School (FWS) at Nellis AFB, he fought students, cadre pilots, Marine and Navy pilots, and pilots from a dozen countries, who were attending the FWS as part of the Mutual Defense Assistance Pact.
> 
> He never lost.
> 
> Boyd was famous for a maneuver he called "flat-plating the bird." He would be in the defensive position with a challenger tight on his tail, both pulling heavy Gs, when he would suddenly pull the stick full aft, brace his elbows on either side of the cockpit, so the stick would not move laterally, and stomp the rudder. It was as if a manhole cover were sailing through the air and then suddenly flipped 90 degrees. The underside of the fuselage, wings, and horizontal stabilizer became a speed brake that slowed the Hun from 400 knots to 150 knots in seconds. The pursuing pilot was thrown forward and now Boyd was on his tail radioing "Guns. Guns. Guns."
> 
> The myth of "Forty-Second Boyd" still rankles AF fighter pilots. They say there is no "best" pilot; that everyone has a bad day. But if they went through Nellis in the late 1950s, they know Boyd had no bad days. And they cannot come up with the name of anyone who ever defeated him.


Is arguably the best pilot of his era. He routinely did the so called 'cobra maneuver' in a less capable design than what the Russians did with a superior design and stole the credit. US pilots flew more often than any other air forces and it is difficult to argue against a man who, for all we know, never lost a challenge. Boyd's thesis on energy management in an aerial engagement is the standard to this day. Lest anyone point out that these are simulated combat engagements, he should ask himself if he is willing to face an Olympic class fencer with no protection and a real saber, after all, this fencer won nothing but simulated combat engagements, no?

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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> Any time you start I will follow.



List of the pilots whom I am known, heard or read, given below.

1. MM Alam
2. Allaudin Ahmed Butch
3. Jamal A Khan
4. Hakim ullah
5. F S Hussain
6. Masroor Hussain
7. Sarfraz A Rafiqui
8. Middle Coat



1. MHK Dotani (above 6000 hrs flying served in PAF & abu dhabi AF)
2. Sattar Alvi (2 kills in 1973 yom kippur war)
3. Hasnat Ahmed 
4. Shams ul Haq (As F/O he shot 3 IAF aircrafts on 03.12.1971) 
5. Abdur Razzaq
6. Khalid Mehmood (3 kills in soviet afghan war)
7. Athar Bukhari
8. Kaiser Tufail

At least we can discuss them...some have experince of both wars, one war, we can discuss their records, performance in exercises, dogfights etc.


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## Engr786

MM. Aalm was the Best

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## Arsalan

go ahead with it dreamer and Sir. MuradK, something about there values and personality. i would even like to know how where they our of the planes!! i mean we have read a lot about there professional skills and acheivement but i think Sir.MuradK is the best one here to put some light on them in there normal personalities!!
pleas sir go ahead,
nice thoughts dreamer,,

regards!

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## wild peace

Happy Defence Day to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long,
Inshallah!

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## Grimrapier

I think Col Giora Epstein, watch the vedio on youtube


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## Muradk

Grimrapier said:


> I think Col Giora Epstein, watch the vedio on youtube



I think my son has already shed light on Giora kills he has 10 confirmed kills 1 unconfirmed, I was in the vicinity when this happed  Where I cant say he shot pilots how had 10 to 15 hours of flight time and no combat experience no wounder he got so many, Plus I am sorry to say that training the Arabs was so difficult because they just didn't get it, In the morning you spent 2 hours training him and in the evening he forgets all. I have students all over the world according to my log book I have a total of 144 students, I have never raised my voice on any one but when training Arabs they brought me to a point where I would just think put my ejection pin in and eject which will throw him out of the plane

The best pilot I have seen my self 
Nur khan no one could match his skills.
we have a lot of pilots in PAF who have broken world records of all kind .
In IAF Ratore was the best.

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## Muradk

dreamer said:


> List of the pilots whom I am known, heard or read, given below.
> 
> 1. MM Alam
> 2. Allaudin Ahmed Butch
> 3. Jamal A Khan
> 4. Hakim ullah
> 5. F S Hussain
> 6. Masroor Hussain
> 7. Sarfraz A Rafiqui
> 8. Middle Coat
> 
> :
> 1. MHK Dotani (above 6000 hrs flying served in PAF & abu dhabi AF)
> 2. Sattar Alvi (2 kills in 1973 yom kippur war)
> 3. Hasnat Ahmed
> 4. Shams ul Haq (As F/O he shot 3 IAF aircrafts on 03.12.1971)
> 5. Abdur Razzaq
> 6. Khalid Mehmood (3 kills in soviet afghan war)
> 7. Athar Bukhari
> 8. Kaiser Tufail
> 
> At least we can discuss them...some have experince of both wars, one war, we can discuss their records, performance in exercises, dogfights etc.




In this list there are 2 names who have broken world records which are still holding.

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## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> ...snip....
> 
> 
> 1. MHK Dotani (above 6000 hrs flying served in PAF & abu dhabi AF)
> 2. Sattar Alvi (2 kills in 1973 yom kippur war)
> 3. Hasnat Ahmed
> 4. Shams ul Haq (As F/O he shot 3 IAF aircrafts on 03.12.1971)
> 5. Abdur Razzaq
> 6. Khalid Mehmood (3 kills in soviet afghan war)
> 7. Athar Bukhari
> 8. Kaiser Tufail
> 
> At least we can discuss them...some have experince of both wars, one war, we can discuss their records, performance in exercises, dogfights etc.



I am just curious - being new on this forum - where and what are the above doing these days???

Also in reference to Mr. Muradk's comment earlier in this thread about none of them making the higher echelons of PAF command....sad. Let me, just for discussion sake, suggest an alternative explanation as to why they do not get to higher command: sometimes it is hard for trained "killers" to become good managers. Anyone who has ever achieved anything in "management" recognises that "***-kissing" is a necessary evil. For fighter pilots who HAVE killed their enemy, so to speak, it may be a difficult thing to do. Just my two cents.............


PS: as per this .pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/1971war/threedays.html

a Flight Lieutenant "Schames" shot down 3 in Dacca - there was another Shams who did the same??? ---- wow!!!! or is this the same guy?????


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## Muradk

shr_bwp said:


> I am just curious - being new on this forum - where and what are the above doing these days???
> 
> Also in reference to Mr. Muradk's comment earlier in this thread about none of them making the higher echelons of PAF command....sad. Let me, just for discussion sake, suggest an alternative explanation as to why they do not get to higher command: sometimes it is hard for trained "killers" to become good managers. Anyone who has ever achieved anything in "management" recognises that "***-kissing" is a necessary evil. For fighter pilots who HAVE killed their enemy, so to speak, it may be a difficult thing to do. Just my two cents.............
> 
> 
> PS: as per this .pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/1971war/threedays.html
> 
> a Flight Lieutenant "Schames" shot down 3 in Dacca - there was another Shams who did the same??? ---- wow!!!! or is this the same guy?????




Sorry friend your conclusions are wrong.
Everyone in the list were die hard fighters all of them got heart problems, Flying takes a toll out of you. You have to stay fit for as long you are in PAF as a fighter pilot. 
Our Killer Instinct used to go away when we landed all the above were excellent leaders and showed promise, Only thing wrong with them was most of them were crazy about flying they used to pull more hours than then there whole SQD.

Most of them are working on JF-17 project, Why not use the best of the best for our future.
Khalid Mahmood just became Grade 20 officer and Dotani retired at grade 22 back in the 90s, Rest of them some are retired and enjoying there lives and rest are working at the same scale they retired as civilians consultants with PAF.

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## muslim282

mm alam wins it for me.

Oh yeah and Maverick, the one from topgun


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## Muradk

dreamer said:


> List of the pilots whom I am known, heard or read, given below.
> 
> 1. MM Alam
> 2. Allaudin Ahmed Butch
> 3. Jamal A Khan
> 4. Hakim ullah
> 5. F S Hussain
> 6. Masroor Hussain
> 7. Sarfraz A Rafiqui
> 8. Middle Coat
> 1. MHK Dotani (above 6000 hrs flying served in PAF & abu dhabi AF)
> 2. Sattar Alvi (2 kills in 1973 yom kippur war)
> 3. Hasnat Ahmed
> 4. Shams ul Haq (As F/O he shot 3 IAF aircrafts on 03.12.1971)
> 5. Abdur Razzaq
> 6. Khalid Mehmood (3 kills in soviet afghan war)
> 7. Athar Bukhari
> 8. Kaiser Tufail
> 
> At least we can discuss them...some have experince of both wars, one war, we can discuss their records, performance in exercises, dogfights etc.



1 MM Alam Retired living a happy life.
2 Butch KIA 
2 Jamal made COAS
3 Hakim made COAS
4 Masroor Dead 
5 Sarfraz A Rafiqui KIA
6 Middle C KIA
7 Sattar Alvi retired at home ( He has 1 kill dreamer )
8 Hasnat Dead Fighter crashed.
9 Razzaq Deied with Musaf 
10 khalid M heart problem retired now consultant with PAC JF-17.
11Ather is seving AVM will become the DCAS OPS one day and might become the COAS one day
12 Kaiser retied Heart problem consultant PAF.

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## Patriot

My favorite PAF pilot is MHK Dotani..the coolest PAF Fighter Pilot
maybe other PAF pilots are cool too but I think Pervez Shamim and MHK Dotani both are very cool guys!!.MM ALAM is also very good fighter pilot and Sarfarz Rafiqiue a very patriotic pakistani who gave life for his country  MHK is the only PAF Pilot to fly F-16 supersonic with artificial leg!He kicked some serious *** when he flew F-16 and the people who used to say you cant fly anymore came to him and asked him to train them.

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## Muradk

Patriot said:


> My favorite PAF pilot is MHK Dotani..the coolest PAF Fighter Pilot
> maybe other PAF pilots are cool too but I think PShamim and MHK Dotani both are very cool guys!!.MM ALAM is also very good fighter pilot and Sarfarz Rafiqiue a very patriotic pakistani who gave life for his country  MHK is the only PAF Pilot to fly F-16 supersonic with artificial leg!He kicked some serious *** when he flew F-16 and the people who used to say you cant fly anymore came to him and asked him to train them.



Problem with Dotani was he rose to the ranks very fast because of his flying skills When people went to Pakistani staff college he went to USA when people went to Islamabad he went to UK in total he did 21 foreign courses he was a natural, In PAF you get the best if you are best in Air , Holds 2 kills in Indo pak war claimed by his Officer Commanding ( never contested ) He holds the highest numbers of kills in TOP GUN on Mirages and F-6, Only pilot to win Sher AFG 4 times in a row, Only pilot to fly F-16 or supersonics in the world with a Artificial leg ( world Record ). The first time he took of with his Artificial leg shot all CCS Instructors. Got his A1 CAT for flying flew F-6, F-7, Mirages. That was his down fall all the senior officers in AHQ didn't like that there problem was how can someone with 1 leg beat us. And the biggest problem he had he was to bloody disciplined , If you guys remember the 4 Turkish F-16 landed on 7th september in Chaklala he received them he was ASCA OPS now when the Vice chief Arshad came he turns around and tells him when you know we are meeting these pilot atleast wear proper uniform and pressed the whole PAF found out about it because Arshad Sb made such a big fuss about it. WTF you don't say that to the VCOAS learned his lesson alright.

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## jalip

Muradk said:


> Problem with Dotani was he rose to the ranks very fast because of his flying skills When people went to Pakistani staff college he went to USA when people went to Islamabad he went to UK in total he did 21 foreign courses he was a natural, In PAF you get the best if you are best in Air , Holds 2 kills in Indo pak war claimed by his Officer Commanding ( never contested ) He holds the highest numbers of kills in TOP GUN on Mirages and F-6, Only pilot to win Sher AFG 4 times in a row, Only pilot to fly F-16 or supersonics in the world with a Artificial leg ( world Record ). The first time he took of with his Artificial leg shot all CCS Instructors. Got his A1 CAT for flying flew F-6, F-7, Mirages. That was his down fall all the senior officers in AHQ didn't like that there problem was how can someone with 1 leg beat us. And the biggest problem he had he was to bloody disciplined , If you guys remember the 4 Turkish F-16 landed on 7th september in Chaklala he received them he was ASCA OPS now when the Vice chief Arshad came he turns around and tells him when you know we are meeting these pilot atleast wear proper uniform and pressed the whole PAF found out about it because Arshad Sb made such a big fuss about it. WTF you don't say that to the VCOAS learned his lesson alright.


Sir will u plz tell me what is MKH Dotni current status ? what he is up to now a days

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## Muradk

jalip said:


> Sir will u plz tell me what is MKH Dotni current status ? what he is up to now a days



Retired. I don't know what he is doing now a days.


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## nollvllad

* M.M ALAM FOREVER 8 shots(claimed by paf) 5 shots(according to IAF) * 


so if you don't agree with me  its alright

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## SeaGull

nollvllad said:


> * M.M ALAM FOREVER 8 shots(claimed by paf) 5 shots(according to IAF) *
> 
> 
> so if you don't agree with me  its alright



*RIGHTO - MM ALAM FOREVER
AND - SAIFUL AZAM*


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## SeaGull

*Can some one send me Alam Sir's mailing address/email.
PM me if you will.
Many thanks*


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## Abu Zolfiqar

off the top of my head....

Pilots:

S. Sajad Haider 
M.M. Alam
Saiful Azam
F.S. Hussain
Sarfaraz Raffiqi
Hussain Shabir Syed
Sattar Alvi
Arshad Sami

many others too, and it's sad that we have only limited space.


Air Marshals:

Asghar Khan
Nur Khan
Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed



I would also like to give credit to Squadrons 19 and 24 for their particularly *OUTSTANDING * roles in the wars of 1965 and 71

Furthermore, Squadron 10 (of former East Pakistan) performed incredibly as well --having secured many succesful bombing sorties and ground attack missions in 1965; despite the fact that they were only allotted 10 F-86 Sabres for the Air Defence of entire East Pakistan.




On a side note, here is a picture of former Leader of the Number 19 Squadron of Pakistan Air Force (and national icon) S. Sajjad "Nosy" Haider

He is the hero of 1965 and 71 wars. In 1965 he executed a text book strike which earned him much fame - against Pathankot airfield destroying all enemy indian hunters & MiG-21 aircrafts on the tarmac. 

He is also known for having downed several other indian aircrafts during his years in service with PAF.

My uncle and him go way way back. In the picture he is signing the book he recently had published. Truly one of the most inspirational days of my life.

Book is called _Flight of the Falcon_. A very gripping, well-written, and interesting book about his life in Pakistan Air Force. He's a true nationalist, Mashallah.

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## Muradk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> off the top of my head....
> 
> Pilots:
> 
> S. Sajad Haider
> M.M. Alam
> Saiful Azam
> F.S. Hussain
> Sarfaraz Raffiqi
> Hussain Shabir Syed
> Sattar Alvi
> Arshad Sami
> 
> many others too, and it's sad that we have only limited space.
> 
> 
> Air Marshals:
> 
> Asghar Khan
> Nur Khan
> Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed



I have flown with all of them MM Alam , Safaraz, Shabir SB, Nur khan were the best of the best and Tanvir's name he was an average pilot. Shahid Latif, Khalid Chaudhry could do circles around him with there eyes shut.

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## SeaGull

*M M Alam* is retired but *not happily retired.*

We get to hear he is dogged by intelligence agencies and in general his activities are restricted.

If he was so hugely right in Sept 1965 - what makes Pakistan think that he is wrong in his thinking, now?


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## Muradk

SeaGull said:


> *M M Alam* is retired but *not happily retired.*
> 
> We get to hear he is dogged by intelligence agencies and in general his activities are restricted.
> 
> If he was so hugely right in Sept 1965 - what makes Pakistan think that he is wrong in his thinking, now?



And where did you get this headline from .
Last year in JAN I met him in London from there we went to Dubai 
This year we met in Germany than came to London from there we both came to Houston.
By the way he retired a long time ago his info is of no use to any one.

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## Patriot

SeaGull said:


> *M M Alam* is retired but *not happily retired.*
> 
> We get to hear he is dogged by intelligence agencies and in general his activities are restricted.
> 
> If he was so hugely right in Sept 1965 - what makes Pakistan think that he is wrong in his thinking, now?


Your info is wrong..It was during Attock Consipiracy case that he along with several paf pilots such as Sajjad Haider (Picture above) were interrogated because a coup attempt from some low level pilots were unmasked...it was after 71 but once the case ended..most of the pilots got their duty back without any problem and he also appeared on a tv program on GEO..his son was a cricketer in Pakistan Team.In other words, he is a free Pakistani citizen with no restrictions.

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## SeaGull

Muradk said:


> And where did you get this headline from .
> Last year in JAN I met him in London from there we went to Dubai
> This year we met in Germany than came to London from there we both came to Houston.
> By the way he retired a long time ago his info is of no use to any one.


"He was an Air Cdre when he confronted his Air Chief, some say over an injustice done to his friend Sekandar Mahmud, some say over some corruption in the Air Force.
In 1982 he was slammed with a forced retirement and my hero uttered "Allahu Akbar" in response. He had lived his useful time in the Air Force and God wished him to move on"

This is a excerpt from an article titled, 'From Dogfight to Divinity"written by one of our intellectuals Mr Badrul Ahsan, who met him in Karachi a couple of years back. The article also alleges that Alam was under surveillance by the ISI for being critical of the leaders of Pakistan - which is OK with me.

And here is something from the Wikipedia:

Alam was the first commanding officer of the first squadron of Dassault Mirage III fighters procured by the PAF in 1967. However he was not very popular with the top management of the PAF and was shortly removed from command, on the excuse that he was not "literate enough"

You know now Muradk, why we Bengalis had it up to here with you Pakistanis.

M. M. Alam may have been forcibly retired a long time ago and his info may not of value or importance to you or to Pakistan. But he does matter to us and even though you are current with him and can, if you so wish send me his address to communicate - But you won't.
Al hamdullilah


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## Patriot

M. M. Alam is not Bengali..He is bihari hence he stayed with Pakistan after 71 and Muradk knows a lot more about MM ALAM Then you so please stop with your conspiracy theories.

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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> Sorry friend your conclusions are wrong.
> Everyone in the list were die hard fighters all of them got heart problems, Flying takes a toll out of you. You have to stay fit for as long you are in PAF as a fighter pilot.
> Our Killer Instinct used to go away when we landed all the above were excellent leaders and showed promise, Only thing wrong with them was most of them were crazy about flying they used to pull more hours than then there whole SQD.
> 
> Most of them are working on JF-17 project, Why not use the best of the best for our future.
> Khalid Mahmood just became Grade 20 officer and Dotani retired at grade 22 back in the 90s, Rest of them some are retired and enjoying there lives and rest are working at the same scale they retired as civilians consultants with PAF.




With respect - I was just suggesting an alternative as to why these pilots who had done so well in the air when their lives were on the line did not make it into "management". I accept your conclusion that it was mostly heart issues - so thank you for your reply.

I am still curious about the "Schames" vs. the "Shams" thing - the first is listed as a Flt. Lt. and the second is shown as a Fly. Off. - are these the same person who got three in one day out of Dacca on 3rd or 4th Dec. 1971???? is it just typos???

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## Canaan

Muradk said:


> I think my son has already shed light on Giora kills he has 10 confirmed kills 1 unconfirmed, I was in the vicinity when this happed  Where I cant say he shot pilots how had 10 to 15 hours of flight time and no combat experience no wounder he got so many, Plus I am sorry to say that training the Arabs was so difficult because they just didn't get it, In the morning you spent 2 hours training him and in the evening he forgets all. I have students all over the world according to my log book I have a total of 144 students, I have never raised my voice on any one but when training Arabs they brought me to a point where I would just think put my ejection pin in and eject which will throw him out of the plane
> 
> What would you say is the reason behind this? I'm dying to know...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

SeaGull said:


> *M M Alam* is retired but *not happily retired.*
> 
> We get to hear he is dogged by intelligence agencies and in general his activities are restricted.
> 
> If he was so hugely right in Sept 1965 - what makes Pakistan think that he is wrong in his thinking, now?



I have no idea where you got that info. M M Alam is a free man, and a national icon. In Lahore, there is an entire road/avenue named after him (with some good restaurants there, I might add.....damn the construction going on though!!)



S. Sajad Haider was briefly (and wrongfully/sinfully) detained over Attock Conspiracy

read his book, you'll learn about what happened. But I can tell you that he is extremely nationalistic about Pakistan, but very critical of Ayub Khan and the Generals/war planners of the 65 and 71 wars; and critical of dictators in general (rightfully so). 


There was Pilot Officer Mohammad Hanif who was detained at Peshawar Fort, by General Zia because the govt. accused him and several other officers of mutiny (this may be a myth, but this is what I have read)


other than that, most of our legend PAF figureheads are dead, or living private and well-deservedly happy lives.

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## Muradk

shr_bwp said:


> With respect - I was just suggesting an alternative as to why these pilots who had done so well in the air when their lives were on the line did not make it into "management". I accept your conclusion that it was mostly heart issues - so thank you for your reply.
> 
> I am still curious about the "Schames" vs. the "Shams" thing - the first is listed as a Flt. Lt. and the second is shown as a Fly. Off. - are these the same person who got three in one day out of Dacca on 3rd or 4th Dec. 1971???? is it just typos???



4th December 1971, Marked the beginning of the greatest air battle of the day, Led by *Flt LT Shams-ul-Haq* PAF nick name Skamish with a equally young spirited *Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed* on hid wing. 2 F-86s of NO14 SQD scrambled at 0845. Just as their wheels were locking-up the F-86s were fired upon by a flight of 4 Su-7s which were attacking the runway at that time. *Shams* shot down 1 Su-7 with a sidewinder, while being sheered by 14 SQD airmen watching from below. In the ensuing air battle, *Shams* downed another 2 more enemy Hunters while *Shamshad* bagged 1.

On that day 14 SQD pilots shot 9 enemy fighters for the loss of 3 F-86s.

*Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed *shot another hunter on the 6th of Dec.

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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> ...snip...... *Shams* shot down 1 Su-7 with a sidewinder, while being sheered by 14 SQD airmen watching from below. In the ensuing air battle, *Shams shot down two more* ...snip.





Hopefully he was rewarded - awarded - appropriately? 

Three "bad guys" in a couple of days is pretty good by anybody's shooting standard, eh?

My interest as the reader can tell is the East Pakistan theater in 1971 for no other reason than it has not received the same coverage as 
West Pakistan, IMHO, on this forum. I was 10 years old then and one of the things you learn as you grow up is that it is very hard to get facts around our country's history and that is a shame.

There have been good signs in the recent past (Mr. Shuja Nawaz's book, Mr. Tariq Ali's book) contain tidbits that I did not know and find fascinating......I hope our people who have "retired" from active lives (political, military, government et al) have the courage to write stone-cold accurate accounts of their experiences which imho, what our current and subsequent generations need - to paraphrase someone much smarter then me: how do you know where to go to, if you do not know where you came from???


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## Muradk

Here let me give you a few facts 

*1965 war 14 SQD in 3 days did this*.





[/IMG]


*1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.*




[/IMG]


*That is mind blowing 14 SQD at its best.*
plus 14 SQD in Afghan Conflict.

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## jalip

Muradk said:


> Here let me give you a few facts
> 
> *1965 war 14 SQD in 3 days did this*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> 
> *1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> 
> *That is mind blowing 14 SQD at its best.*
> plus 14 SQD in Afghan Conflict.



that is awesome Sir 
Sir Murk another question does Pakistan have sufficient air power to defend it self from indian air force or we need more air bases and fighter plan.
As in modern warfare army is relaying more and more on air force dont you think Sir that its the high time for pakistan to invest more in air force then army specially our air force never let us down in any war.
Thanks

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## Myth_buster_1

Muradk said:


> Here let me give you a few facts
> 
> *1965 war 14 SQD in 3 days did this*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> 
> *1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> 
> *That is mind blowing 14 SQD at its best.*
> plus 14 SQD in Afghan Conflict.



ohh my my... thats 18 destroyed 9 damaged IAF planes by just one sqd in the span of just 3 days?  thats more then the planes we lost in the entire 65 war!

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## Muradk

Right now we are not doing bad our fleet is 95% operational, And yes we are investing in new fighters. Our missile defence system and Air Defence system are way advanced when IAF crossed into LOC we were on then in Sec. Pakistan is very powerful in Air -to-Air and Air-to-Ground. Combined force of PAF and Army ground to Air is excellent during our days the Army had big problem to identify fighter now they go through a 2 1/2 years of training before they are given a Stinger or any other weapon.
486 wing of PAF Air defence is spread all around the border with deadly precision weapons, They can enter Pakistan by surprise but cannot leave without being surprised. It will be a 1 way trip I assure you that.
From Karachi to Kashmir we have a radar system setup in a way that one radars signature overlaps the other so anything 6 feet long and 1 feet high will pop in within a sec. And these radars are not only over lapping each other they are over lapping at different altitudes.

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## Myth_buster_1

Muradk said:


> Right now we are not doing bad our fleet is 95&#37; operational, And yes we are investing in new fighters. Our missile defence system and Air Defence system are way advanced when IAF crossed into LOC we were on then in Sec. Pakistan is very powerful in Air -to-Air and Air-to-Ground. Combined force of PAF and Army ground to Air is excellent during our days the Army had big problem to identify fighter now they go through a 2 1/2 years of training before they are given a Stinger or any other weapon.
> 486 wing of PAF Air defence is spread all around the border with deadly precision weapons, They can enter Pakistan by surprise but cannot leave without being surprised. It will be a 1 way trip I assure you that.
> From Karachi to Kashmir we have a radar system setup in a way that one radars signature overlaps the other so anything 6 feet long and 1 feet high will pop in within a sec. And these radars are not only over lapping each other they are over lapping at different altitudes.



admit. why was i arguing with the AD officer for!!! he kept on trying to tell me this but i kept on interrupting that pak has no BVR SAM... 
thanks sir once again... very informative..


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## Righteous_Fire

Growler said:


> admit. why was i arguing with the AD officer for!!! he kept on trying to tell me this but i kept on intercepting that pak has no BVR SAM...
> thanks sir once again... very informative..



A BVR SAM??  what are you guys talking about ??


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## Myth_buster_1

righteous_fire said:


> A BVR SAM??  what are you guys talking about ??



something like S-300


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## Righteous_Fire

Growler said:


> something like S-300



Yes, I understand but you said:



Growler said:


> admit. why was i arguing with the AD officer for!!! he kept on trying to tell me this but i kept on intercepting that pak has no BVR SAM...
> thanks sir once again... very informative..



So, where do we stand exactly?


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## Comet

An excellent thread with loads of knowledge about the Heroes. 

For some reason, I can thank the useful posts by many specially Sir. Muradk.

My Question: What should be the criteria for judging the Best Pilot in Modern Air War? Should it be 'doing things by the book' or should it be 'doing things right'?


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## Muradk

umairp said:


> An excellent thread with loads of knowledge about the Heroes.
> 
> For some reason, I can thank the useful posts by many specially Sir. Muradk.
> 
> My Question: What should be the criteria for judging the Best Pilot in Modern Air War? Should it be 'doing things by the book' or should it be 'doing things right'?



Just because you shoot down couple of fighters don't make you the best, What makes a fighter pilot best is when he is in the sky and you have a serious emergency. In that situation you get to know if he is good or not 
example
My student Traiq Shahab was at 32000ft in an F-6 the plane was a dead stick he land that beast just by using trimmer only in books that is not possible specially with a fighter which doesn't glide. Now thats makes you best of the best. In such situations books and SOP goes out if the window. He can either choose to eject or choose to land, Same thing happend to Qadari but right before his finals the F-7 went inverted and crashed.

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## Comet

I have heard about a PAF pilot(I don't remember hi name) who as instructor of MIRAGE landed it without the landing gear. That too from backseat as the trainee who was in front seat fainted due to immense pressure. 

I don't know if it is true.


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## Muradk

umairp said:


> I have heard about a PAF pilot(I don't remember hi name) who as instructor of MIRAGE landed it without the landing gear. That too from backseat as the trainee who was in front seat fainted due to immense pressure.
> 
> I don't know if it is true.



No this incident happend in 9 SQD OCU Shorkot Mirage, The gears were down but the student landed so hard that he blew up the tires. The students name was Shaquat we used to call him Shaquat Chibar because when he was young he got small pox.

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## Canaan

sir murad
as a flight instructor can you tell me why my fellow arab pilots suck? 
that said i am very impressed and have deep respect for pak pilots, they are amazing. And am especially proud of them shooting the Izzies out of the sky, damn good work!

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## SeaGull

Canaan said:


> sir murad
> as a flight instructor can you tell me why my fellow arab pilots suck?
> that said i am very impressed and have deep respect for pak pilots, they are amazing. And am especially proud of them shooting the Izzies out of the sky, damn good work!


Hi Canaan - A counter question here and no offence:
Has it ever occurred to you why the Arabs with all their wealth and nos and strength could not for a single time overcome the Izzies in all of these 60+ years?

I feel Muradk has quite adequately answered your question in his comments, if you will trek back a little.


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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> Here let me give you a few facts
> 
> *....snip....
> 1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Mr. MuradK: you are clearly THE MAN!
> 
> Firstly, thank you not only for posting this record but for indulging my probably unhealthy obsession for activity out of Dacca in 1971.
> 
> Secondly, with apologies - its seems that there WERE two Shams-ul-haq's in Dacca at the same time - both Flt. Lt.s - only difference is that one had an "odd" spelling of his name and both got kills....... In a previous post from ou that I may have misread, I interpreted your answer (where you mentioned the nickname "Skamish") to mean they were one and the same!!
> 
> I am, as you can see focusing on trivia, but wow this has to be some UNEARTHLY conincidence!!!!*

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## Arsalan

well there is no doubt that our pilots are one of the best in the world. i is just some financila problems that they are not able to get there hands on to some of the finest machines around. this problem will be solved to some extent by the new JF and FC20 comming in. in the mean while we have to go along with the old mirages, F7p and some experience on high tech equipment courtesy our friends in Arab nations!!

regards!


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## Canaan

SeaGull said:


> Hi Canaan - A counter question here and no offence:
> Has it ever occurred to you why the Arabs with all their wealth and nos and strength could not for a single time overcome the Izzies in all of these 60+ years?
> 
> I feel Muradk has quite adequately answered your question in his comments, if you will trek back a little.



I'm not offended, I'm a realistic person, and I'm sorry to say that arabs in general do suck. 

Arabs today would sell their mother for money.

They don't take responsibilty for their own failures, it's always someone elses fault.

We let everybody play us the way they want, even if it's totally obvious.

We don't plan for the future, because God will somehow sort it out for us. Inshallah! yet we are so far away from him these days. As if swithing off our brains will bring God's will.

We let corrupt dictators installed by the West control us with a fist of iron, like a herd of sheep, and instead of getting rid of these parasites we fight and kill eachother.



I think I pretty much covered our not so nice traits.

But I hope sir Murad will share with us his qualified guess why they were the way they were, and what kind of arab nationality we are talking about? Gulf arabs? Syrians?

---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------

do you guys think Pak pilots will have some airtime on Saudi Typhoons or UAE Rafales?

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## Patriot

I think he is talking about UAE Pilots as he has trained UAEAF Pilots in the past..If i am not wrong he has 2000 hours flying UAEAF Jets alone..and 4000 hours on Pakistani AF Jets!


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## SeaGull

Canaan said:


> I'm not offended, I'm a realistic person, and I'm sorry to say that arabs in general do suck.
> 
> Arabs today would sell their mother for money.
> 
> They don't take responsibilty for their own failures, it's always someone elses fault.
> 
> We let everybody play us the way they want, even if it's totally obvious.
> 
> We don't plan for the future, because God will somehow sort it out for us. Inshallah! yet we are so far away from him these days. As if swithing off our brains will bring God's will.
> 
> We let corrupt dictators installed by the West control us with a fist of iron, like a herd of sheep, and instead of getting rid of these parasites we fight and kill eachother.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I pretty much covered our not so nice traits.
> 
> But I hope sir Murad will share with us his qualified guess why they were the way they were, and what kind of arab nationality we are talking about? Gulf arabs? Syrians?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------
> 
> do you guys think Pak pilots will have some airtime on Saudi Typhoons or UAE Rafales?


Thank you Canaan for being so honest - I wish there were more Arabs like you.

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## Hyde

aftert visiting this thread for sometime i am thinking to create another thread "Who was the best Pakistani fighter pilot ever"

I don't know abc of our Armed forces since i don't belong to the military background but love to come here and read the comments made by seniors...... so should i create a new thread or you guyz going to name a few here now?


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## SeaGull

Canaan I shall tell you the story of my instructor Gp Capt Saiful Azam - who was deputed as flying instructor to Jordan from the PAF. 
He is the one who shot down three Israeli Air Force a/c during the 1967 Arab- Israeli War.
But all of it tomorrow.
Take care

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## Canaan

SeaGull said:


> Canaan I shall tell you the story of my instructor Gp Capt Saiful Azam - who was deputed as flying instructor to Jordan from the PAF.
> He is the one who shot down three Israeli Air Force a/c during the 1967 Arab- Israeli War.
> But all of it tomorrow.
> Take care



well I can't wait to hear about it .. good night


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## Arsalan

Mr X said:


> aftert visiting this thread for sometime i am thinking to create another thread "Who was the best Pakistani fighter pilot ever"
> 
> I don't know abc of our Armed forces since i don't belong to the military background but love to come here and read the comments made by seniors...... so should i create a new thread or you guyz going to name a few here now?




this is what we have been discussing dear. do not jump onto last page and analyze the situation, if you can bother to visit the thread from the start you will find the desired information!!

regards!

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## Muradk

Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.
Lets start with UAE My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF. I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is 8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great, Now 4pm Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.

Now Syrians taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.

Iraqis and Iranians man they had issues teach them something 1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot. Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw

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## SeaGull

Canaan said:


> well I can't wait to hear about it .. good night


Canaan - I did not know that there was an entire thread on this forum, devoted to this Living Legend - Gp Capt SAIF UL AZAM

This is the link: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/17600-bangladeshi-ace-pilots.html

For the moment you can go thru these, but there is more to these stories, that I have heard him relate himself plus my own experiences with him, which I shall be filling you in over the coming days and weeks.
Good wishes to you

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## Arsalan

so this show that they really do s***!! 

nothong to be excited about, it really is a dilema! 

regards!

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## Canaan

SeaGull said:


> Canaan - I did not know that there was an entire thread on this forum, devoted to this Living Legend - Gp Capt SAIF UL AZAM
> 
> This is the link: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/17600-bangladeshi-ace-pilots.html
> 
> For the moment you can go thru these, but there is more to these stories, that I have heard him relate himself plus my own experiences with him, which I shall be filling you in over the coming days and weeks.
> Good wishes to you


 thank you for the link, and God bless his likes, he makes us proud....

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## Muradk

Canaan said:


> thank you for the link, and God bless his likes, he makes us proud....



Saif Sb was a natural just like MM Alam or Nur khan, He was one of those pilot put him in anything and he will kick your As- in seconds. The way he used to execute his maneuver were just mind blowing as if he knew that the enemy will end up here right at that spot. He was one of those crazy pilots got nothing else to do just keep flying. Everyone going home only one fighter in the Air you never had to guess who that was. He was a bit cocky in his attitude and the Arabs didn't like that simple fact was the guy knew what he was talking and he knew how capable the Arabs are in the skies so senior or junior he did what he though was right and he was Always right.

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## jalip

Muradk said:


> Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
> ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.
> Lets start with UAE My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF. I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is 8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great, Now 4pm Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.
> 
> Now Syrians taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.
> 
> Iraqis and Iranians man they had issues teach them something 1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot. Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw



Sir I think only because of that reason US have no problem selling them the latest jets

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## Muradk

jalip said:


> Sir I think only because of that reason US have no problem selling them the latest jets



You are right that is why they sold them Desert Falcons and since than 6 of them crashed, few of my students are Instructors in UAE and they say that the Arabs have this complex and he is right we had the same problem with them that they had to prove by doing all kinds of aerobatics to tell that they are the best 4 falcons crashed because of that and the other 2 crashed because they landed in formation during a sand storm 40kt cross wind both collided with each other 6 F-16s in 2 years thats a record. Our pilots work so hard to teach them but somehow they just don't get it.

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## SeaGull

Muradk said:


> You are right that is why they sold them Desert Falcons and since than 6 of them crashed, few of my students are Instructors in UAE and they say that the Arabs have this complex and he is right we had the same problem with them that they had to prove by doing all kinds of aerobatics to tell that they are the best 4 falcons crashed because of that and the other 2 crashed because they landed in formation during a sand storm 40kt cross wind both collided with each other 6 F-16s in 2 years thats a record. Our pilots work so hard to teach them but somehow they just don't get it.


I think you should open another thread -'ARAB IDIOSYNCRACIES' - it should be the funniest thread in the entire site I guess.

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## Canaan

wow I'm speechless.....!


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## shr_bwp

Perhaps on a different note: what gallantry awards were awarded to pilots in 1971 and to whom? If there is another thread that contains this data, please let me know.

I know "gongs" sometimes do not matter, but I was just curious as to what was the "official" recognition of fighter pilot 1971 war activity..

Thank you.

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## SeaGull

Canaan said:


> wow I'm speechless.....!


No disrespect to Palestinians - We have always been pained at and, are one with the Palestinians and their cause. It is also because of the other Arabs that Palestinians have come to this stage now.

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## SeaGull

I see no reason in the restraint to call the crow a 'crow'. Just because they have plenty of money and provide employment for us - forget it. They buy our people as slaves to work for them. And by their own admission they are Arabs as if Arabs and Muslims are two distinct identity.
One of the most painful moments of my life came in the watching of Mohammad al Dura and his father shot by the Israelis. And how I wished I was there at the moment to be shot along with them, instead of having to endure this tormented memory in my mind.
My own blood brother, a step elder to me fought Sharon's Army in Lebanon in 1982. He was a Lt of the PLO. 
Deployed near Nabatiyeh he had a bunch of braves with him, who all ran away at the sight of advancing Israeli tank column. Alone, he waited for the column to advance within range then picked up the abandoned rocket launcher, stood up from behind the ridge, took aim shot and then dropped down to flee away to a safer place.
This picture of the burning tank was later published in Jane's Defence Review as perhaps the only loss Israelis faced in that war.
What happened to my brother later, is another story, of which he remains bitter to this day and perhaps I may yet tell it some day.
These are are our Arab brothers for whom we shed tears and fight whenever we get the chance.

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## Canaan

SeaGull said:


> No disrespect to Palestinians - We have always been pained at and, are one with the Palestinians and their cause. It is also because of the other Arabs that Palestinians have come to this stage now.



unfortunately you are spot on, ,my people have always been no more than a bargaining chip among arabs. Why we stupidly let us play that way is a mystery.

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## Canaan

SeaGull said:


> I see no reason in the restraint to call the crow a 'crow'. Just because they have plenty of money and provide employment for us - forget it. They buy our people as slaves to work for them. And by their own admission they are Arabs as if Arabs and Muslims are two distinct identity.
> One of the most painful moments of my life came in the watching of Mohammad al Dura and his father shot by the Israelis. And how I wished I was there at the moment to be shot along with them, instead of having to endure this tormented memory in my mind.
> My own blood brother, a step elder to me fought Sharon's Army in Lebanon in 1982. He was a Lt of the PLO.
> Deployed near Nabatiyeh he had a bunch of braves with him, who all ran away at the sight of advancing Israeli tank column. Alone, he waited for the column to advance within range then picked up the abandoned rocket launcher, stood up from behind the ridge, took aim shot and then dropped down to flee away to a safer place.
> This picture of the burning tank was later published in Jane's Defence Review as perhaps the only loss Israelis faced in that war.
> What happened to my brother later, is another story, of which he remains bitter to this day and perhaps I may yet tell it some day.
> These are are our Arab brothers for whom we shed tears and fight whenever we get the chance.



the reason for all of the above is bcoz they turned their backs on their faith and the ummah.
Bless your brother, inshallah he will be rewarded for fulfilling what God commanded us.
Unfortunately, the PLO, which began as a noble organization with lots of cadres who were willing to give up their lifes for God and nation ended up being an organization infested with corruption, ***** and conspiracy. I was told that the leadership used to drink with IDF commanders when they occupied Beirut. That plo fighters were given liquor, stolen goods and cars just to persuade them to stay in front line positions, and would often run like cowards when the IDF advanced, and some honestly wonder why we never win.
I have both heard stories of immense bravery and extreme cowardness.

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## SeaGull

Canaan said:


> unfortunately you are spot on, ,my people have always been no more than a bargaining chip among arabs. Why we stupidly let us play that way is a mystery.


SOLVE THE MYSTERY.......MAN!!

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## SeaGull

Muradk said:


> Saif Sb was a natural just like MM Alam or Nur khan, He was one of those pilot put him in anything and he will kick your As- in seconds. The way he used to execute his maneuver were just mind blowing as if he knew that the enemy will end up here right at that spot. He was one of those crazy pilots got nothing else to do just keep flying. Everyone going home only one fighter in the Air you never had to guess who that was. He was a bit cocky in his attitude and the Arabs didn't like that simple fact was the guy knew what he was talking and he knew how capable the Arabs are in the skies so senior or junior he did what he though was right and he was Always right.


I remember him telling of the Immelman he performed and as he was just coming out of the maneouvre..........there it was, the Israeli jet in front of him in his gunsights....BANG!!

Yes, here also, as Base Commander - he would first go up for the morning sortie, before he settled in to take care of the day's mundane work in the office.

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## Righteous_Fire

SeaGull said:


> Yes, here also, as Base Commander - he would first go up for the morning sortie, before he settled in to take care of the day's mundane work in the office.



I would say those are the signs of a true man of the skies, Azad from the crushing bounds of this limiting mortal earth!!

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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> 4th December 1971, Marked the beginning of the greatest air battle of the day, Led by *Flt LT Shams-ul-Haq* PAF nick name Skamish with a equally young spirited *Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed* on hid wing. 2 F-86s of NO14 SQD scrambled at 0845. Just as their wheels were locking-up the F-86s were fired upon by a flight of 4 Su-7s which were attacking the runway at that time. *Shams* shot down 1 Su-7 with a sidewinder, while being sheered by 14 SQD airmen watching from below. In the ensuing air battle, *Shams* downed another 2 more enemy Hunters while *Shamshad* bagged 1.
> 
> On that day 14 SQD pilots shot 9 enemy fighters for the loss of 3 F-86s.
> 
> *Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed *shot another hunter on the 6th of Dec.



Sir Murad!!
Love your research...

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## shr_bwp

dreamer said:


> Sir Murad!!
> Love your research...





shr_bwp said:


> Muradk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here let me give you a few facts
> 
> *....snip....
> 1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Mr. MuradK: you are clearly THE MAN!
> 
> Firstly, thank you not only for posting this record but for indulging my probably unhealthy obsession for activity out of Dacca in 1971.
> 
> Secondly, with apologies - its seems that there WERE two Shams-ul-haq's in Dacca at the same time - both Flt. Lt.s - only difference is that one had an "odd" spelling of his name and both got kills....... In a previous post from ou that I may have misread, I interpreted your answer (where you mentioned the nickname "Skamish") to mean they were one and the same!!
> ...snip
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> er.... Sorry - but as Sir Murad himself posted excerpts from what looks like the official 14 Sqn. record, there WERE two Shams-ul-Haqs and BOTH got kills - as you can see from above image. I still am amazed at such a coincidence - but Sir Murad seems to think that they were one and the same......
> 
> er..... not to be cynical or anything could it be that this official record is inaccurate? I would much rather think that than think that Sir Murad may have incorrectly recalled the events of 4th Dec. 1971.  If so perhaps he can shed more light on this apparent discrepancy. Or better yet - perhaps these two "Shams"s could shed some light on this.....I wonder where they are
> 
> *
Click to expand...


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## Muradk

This is where you are confusing me 
there were 2 yes but spelled differently and both are still alive not dead.

*F/L Schames-ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
F/O Shams -ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971*
the *Schames* retired as a Group Captain very much alive lives in Karachi
the *Shams* retired as a F/O in 1974 and he is alive as well lives in Pindi.

Shams and Shamshad were my students in FLS ON SABERS.

Both the hunters shot down by SQD LDR Javed Afzaal and F/L Schames-ul-Haq belonged to IAF NO 37 SQD Hunters. The pilots off these ill-fated Hunters were S/L AB Samanta and F/L SG Khonde, both pilots were killed in action.

later on I will tell you how we shot Butani saved his As- from BDs and talked to him and took his photo.

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## Canaan

SeaGull said:


> SOLVE THE MYSTERY.......MAN!!



I can't do it by myself I will need your help

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## SeaGull

Canaan said:


> I can't do it by myself I will need your help


Thank you once again for your candidness and honesty, Canaan.
Yes we do have solutions, if only you would listen, even though we are the Miskins and not your Muslim brothers.

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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> This is where you are confusing me
> there were 2 yes but spelled differently and both are still alive not dead.
> 
> *F/L Schames-ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
> F/O Shams -ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971*
> the *Schames* retired as a Group Captain very much alive lives in Karachi
> the *Shams* retired as a F/O in 1974 and he is alive as well lives in Pindi.
> 
> Shams and Shamshad were my students in FLS ON SABERS.
> 
> Both the hunters shot down by SQD LDR Javed Afzaal and F/L Schames-ul-Haq belonged to IAF NO 37 SQD Hunters. The pilots off these ill-fated Hunters were S/L AB Samanta and F/L SG Khonde, both pilots were killed in action.
> 
> later on I will tell you how we shot Butani saved his As- from BDs and talked to him and took his photo.



Questions:
1) Why F/O Shams retired as F/O having 3 enemy kills??
2) What about Shamshad is he alive?? I think He's???


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## shr_bwp

shr_bwp;482141[quote="Muradk said:


> 4th December 1971, Marked the beginning of the greatest air battle of the day, Led by *Flt LT Shams-ul-Haq* PAF nick name Skamish with a equally young spirited *Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed* on hid wing. 2 F-86s of NO14 SQD scrambled at 0845. Just as their wheels were locking-up the F-86s were fired upon by a flight of 4 Su-7s which were attacking the runway at that time. *Shams* shot down 1 Su-7 with a sidewinder, while being sheered by 14 SQD airmen watching from below. In the ensuing air battle, *Shams* downed another 2 more enemy Hunters while *Shamshad* bagged 1.
> 
> On that day 14 SQD pilots shot 9 enemy fighters for the loss of 3 F-86s.
> 
> *Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed *shot another hunter on the 6th of Dec.





Muradk said:


> Here let me give you a few facts
> 
> *1965 war 14 SQD in 3 days did this*.
> 
> [
> *1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> 
> *That is mind blowing 14 SQD at its best.*
> plus 14 SQD in Afghan Conflict.





Muradk said:


> This is where you are confusing me
> there were 2 yes but spelled differently and both are still alive not dead.
> 
> *F/L Schames-ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
> F/O Shams -ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971*
> the *Schames* retired as a Group Captain very much alive lives in Karachi
> the *Shams* retired as a F/O in 1974 and he is alive as well lives in Pindi.
> 
> Shams and Shamshad were my students in FLS ON SABERS.
> 
> Both the hunters shot down by SQD LDR Javed Afzaal and F/L Schames-ul-Haq belonged to IAF NO 37 SQD Hunters. The pilots off these ill-fated Hunters were S/L AB Samanta and F/L SG Khonde, both pilots were killed in action.
> 
> later on I will tell you how we shot Butani saved his As- from BDs and talked to him and took his photo.



First of all  for indulging me once again.

Secondly, maafi chahtaa hoo - I did not intend to confuse you. Here is where I am confused:

In your first post above it seems to me that the Shams who got three kills was a Flt. Lt. Shams ul haq nicknamed "Skamish", then
in your second post where you posted the Tail Choppers (what I presume) official record it shows that there were TWO Flt. Lt. (named Shamsul haq and Schames ul haq) the first got 3 the second got 1. The confusion here is that the Shams who got three as per your first post has a nickname that sounds eerily like the phonetic literal pronunciation of the SECOND "Shams" - I can see why the second Flt. Lt. can be nicknamed Skamish (as per your first post).


In your last post you are saying that there were two Shams' one a Flt. Lt. the other a F/O - which unfortunately adds more confusion because the official record shows both to be Flt. Lts. Does this mean that the F/O was the one who got the three? If so, the official record should be corrected, don't you think so, for the sake of accuracy?

The only thing seems certain (as per official records) is that the one named Flt. Lt. Schames ul haq only had one kill. The other 3 can be attributed to a F/O Shams or a Flt. Lt. Shams. PLEASE CONFIRM.

(Personally, I believe YOUR post that the pilot nicknamed "Skamish" -Schames ul haq got the three kills and not the other Shams - I can see why, based on this pilot's spelling, people would tease him by pronouncing his name as spelt. The official record which does not even get the rank of the other Shams right, is also probably incorrect here. Why do I believe so? because Schames' instructor MuradK , imho, describes the action on 4th December as so...there is, quite frankly, an element of appropriate pride in the way MuradK describes the action of one his students. Finally, the instructor pilot is NOT going to get the rank of the pilot who got three kills, wrong- no way. The official record can be wrong or misprint but not the memory of an instructor who taught someone to do something and that someone applied that knowledge and got three kills. NICE)

Another thing: while looking for some contacts in Edmund, Oklahoma I, conincidentally, came across this profile:

Shams Chohaan - Google Profile

Now, who IS this "Shams ul haq" who is also ex-PAF (bottom of the profile page)

All I can say is that people should stop naming their children Shams ul haq, or get the spelling right, or make sure only one ends up in the air force, or only one ends up in the same Squadron, for the love of God!!!!

PS: Can you post Bhutani's photo that was taken? Is he the same one for which you posted the news footage from 1971 (********.com)? If so, according to unofficial IAF records AA brought him down, is that correct?

PS: Shayed mujhey rozaa lug rahaa hai


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## Abu Zolfiqar

SeaGull said:


> Thank you once again for your candidness and honesty, Canaan.
> Yes we do have solutions, if only you would listen, even though we are the Miskins and not your Muslim brothers.



un-necessary comment, bro.

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## shr_bwp

Further confusion:

The following gives ALL four to someone named "Flt. Lt. Muhammad Shams-ul-Haq "Schames" " - note the use of the name Schames as this pilot's nickname - looks suspiciously like the other Schames ul haq in the official record above:

Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies </HEAD> Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies </HEAD>

http://jpgleize.club.fr/aces/indpak.htm

Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories


This painting by SM Hussaini, which is supposedly displayed at AHQ, Islamabad, is described as combat by F/O Shamsulhaq (scroll to "Battle of Tejgaon":

PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery



Someone named "Group Captain Sultan M. Hali " at:

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/hali1a.html

exact quotes:


"The next pair to scramble, *Flight Lieutenant Shams *and Flying Officer Gul intercepted 2 Su-7s about 3 miles north of Dhaka. The Su-7s were hit but managed to pull away. 

At 0940 hours, *Shams *and Gul scrambled *again*, this time to intercept two Hunters over Dhaka. *Schams *fired at the first Hunter and scored hits but since the aircraft did not go down, he went into a dogfight, entered into classic scissors manoeuvres till the IAF Hunter hit the ground , giving no time to the pilot to eject. Gul chased the other Hunter which managed to get away. 

The greatest air battle of the day was led *again *by *Flying Officer Shamsul Haq* - with the very young but spirited Flying Officer Shamshad on his wing - when they were scrambled around midday. Just as their wheels were locking up, 2, of a flight of 4, approaching Su-7s fired their rockets at the F-86s, which were hardly 200 feet above the trees. Shams broke into them and shot down one of the nearer pair of Sukhois with a Sidewinder, cheered by the squadron airmen watching from below. Shams and Shamshad were next"

Notice the interchangeable Shams with Schams and more importantly the switch from Flt. Lt. to Flying Officer, but using the term "again" to clearly state that all three actions were carried out by the SAME officer!!!!!

Either "daal mein kuch kalaa hai" or this is just one confused story that can only be resolved by both "Shams" who are alive today and can be verified Flying Officer Gul and Flying Officer Shamshad (who by the grace of God I hope are also alive) - they can categorically state which Shams it was......

Good God, I give up !!!!!

Mr. MuradK Sahib: kindly use your contacts with the air force to stipulate that no more similar named pilots in the air force - the rule should be :change your name or get out!!!

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## batmannow

Muradk said:


> This is where you are confusing me
> there were 2 yes but spelled differently and both are still alive not dead.
> 
> *F/L Schames-ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
> F/O Shams -ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971*
> the *Schames* retired as a Group Captain very much alive lives in Karachi
> the *Shams* retired as a F/O in 1974 and he is alive as well lives in Pindi.
> 
> Shams and Shamshad were my students in FLS ON SABERS.
> 
> Both the hunters shot down by SQD LDR Javed Afzaal and F/L Schames-ul-Haq belonged to IAF NO 37 SQD Hunters. The pilots off these ill-fated Hunters were S/L AB Samanta and F/L SG Khonde, both pilots were killed in action.
> 
> later on I will tell you how we shot Butani saved his As- from BDs and talked to him and took his photo.



hounrable, sir
just wana know the effectivness of star fighter 104 , in 71 war !
how was your experince , with those birds, what were the strong points & weak ponits of that bird, how many kills those birds got at that time.
thanks, & respects for you

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## Muradk

batmannow said:


> hounrable, sir
> just wana know the effectivness of star fighter 104 , in 71 war !
> how was your experince , with those birds, what were the strong points & weak ponits of that bird, how many kills those birds got at that time.
> thanks, & respects for you



Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran backBiggest problem I saw in it was it was to fast and the turn radius was as big as Pindi. In the heat of battle if your nose was pointing towards the enemy the guns were so powerful they would tear the fighter apart and sometimes due to speed you would pass the enemy by the time you turn around he is heading home. The phrase of the movie TOP GUN "you can run kid but you can't hide" was meant for 104s. In PAF Air Cdre (Retd) Amanullah was known as guru of Startfighter he got 3 kills if I am not wrong.

The confusion about the schames when they were awarded SJ they were both F/T at the time. He was due for his rank. And PAF is not like USAF you do something good and get promoted no, Your get your rank when the board decides and all of your course gets promoted at the same time. 
Why he left Air force in 1974 in the 60s just like now we had a pilots coming from very rich families they did there job and then decided to join what there fathers were doing.
Biggest example was my student F/L Mansoor khan and Tanveer , Mansoor was Nur Khans Son and was a brilliant pilot but he decided to go to USA and study he is CEO of Agricultural bank of Pakistan, Tanveer same thing rich kid became CEO Singapore Aerospace.

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## shr_bwp

Thank you - therefore the matter can be put rest:

- Shamsul haq - 3 kills
- Schamesul haq - 1 kill

Both were awarded Sitara-e-Jurat.

The first one was "rich kid" and left the Air force in 1974 and is in Pindi. The other is retired in Karachi.

I hope I got it right, Mr. Muradk - please confirm.


PS: - who is the Shamsul haq in Edmund, Oklahoma - pure curiosity.....


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## batmannow

Muradk said:


> Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran backBiggest problem I saw in it was it was to fast and the turn radius was as big as Pindi. In the heat of battle if your nose was pointing towards the enemy the guns were so powerful they would tear the fighter apart and sometimes due to speed you would pass the enemy by the time you turn around he is heading home. The phrase of the movie TOP GUN "you can run kid but you can't hide" was meant for 104s. In PAF Air Cdre (Retd) Amanullah was known as guru of Startfighter he got 3 kills if I am not wrong.
> 
> The confusion about the schames when they were awarded SJ they were both F/T at the time. He was due for his rank. And PAF is not like USAF you do something good and get promoted no, Your get your rank when the board decides and all of your course gets promoted at the same time.
> Why he left Air force in 1974 in the 60s just like now we had a pilots coming from very rich families they did there job and then decided to join what there fathers were doing.
> Biggest example was my student F/L Mansoor khan and Tanveer , Mansoor was Nur Khans Son and was a brilliant pilot but he decided to go to USA and study he is CEO of Agricultural bank of Pakistan, Tanveer same thing rich kid became CEO Singapore Aerospace.



*Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran back*

what a style
dear sir, i would like to thankyou, for your quick response.
i guss, if we had 50 STARFIGHTERs , in 71 war history could be very different today.
by the how about AM anwar shamim, how about him, wht rank you xan give him, as a combat polit.
thanks

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## Muradk

batmannow said:


> *Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran back*
> 
> what a style
> dear sir, i would like to thankyou, for your quick response.
> i guss, if we had 50 STARFIGHTERs , in 71 war history could be very different today.
> by the how about AM anwar shamim, how about him, wht rank you xan give him, as a combat polit.
> thanks



Yar to tell you the truth if we had F-16 in 71 we still have lost BD it was the movement which we had no control over it and India was acting as a fuel on fire. PAF did there best and we had more kills which is again a debate which I don't want to go into. 

Shamim Sahib
Most people don't like Ex-COAS Shamim but he was a fine officer and a good pilot, He has done a lot for PAF people don't see that people only see that he served more than others and that was not his decision it was Zia how said no you will not retire Shamim sb was a great man a hard task master but gracious on the other hand very rewarding when it came to it. There were people in his time who bitched about " we have served all our lives we should be COAS" well hard luck, I know a few people who as a Pilot officers deserved to be the COAS. These were officer who everybody used to say 1 day he will become the Chief but destiny has its own way and we are all puppets.

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## Muradk

shr_bwp said:


> Thank you - therefore the matter can be put rest:
> 
> - Shamsul haq - 3 kills
> - Schamesul haq - 1 kill
> 
> Both were awarded Sitara-e-Jurat.
> 
> The first one was "rich kid" and left the Air force in 1974 and is in Pindi. The other is retired in Karachi.
> 
> I hope I got it right, Mr. Muradk - please confirm.
> 
> 
> PS: - who is the Shamsul haq in Edmund, Oklahoma - pure curiosity.....



What if he is in Oklahoma please send me his info email, Tele on my PM.


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## Muradk

batmannow said:


> *Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran back*
> 
> No seriously I am not jocking Naeem was in Air and at Risalawala and we were over Kamra and we heard GCI saying Naeem 4 hunter 20 miles and he says I am ready and 10 sec later Naeem is laughing is butt off when the hunters saw him they split and went back. Naeem shot a fighter 1 day before that so they knew that this area has a nutcase who is flying a starfighter so run.

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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> What if he is in Oklahoma please send me his info email, Tele on my PM.



Actually this gentleman's profile is public so it would be okay to post it here as I did in one of my previous posts. Please click on this link:

Shams Chohaan - Google Profile

and also this:

Home

which conincidentally uses the PAF roundel as a header on the website!

By the way based on this website cotaining a list of all 1971 awards and their photos:

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

this Shamsul haq is the same one who got three kills and was awarded the SJ - as FLYING OFFICER. The Flt. Lt. Schames was NEVER AWARDED ANYTHING. Shamshad who also shot one down was awarded an SJ but I guess Schames' one was not shot down in a manner to deserve an SJ. Right?

I still think something is missing from this story.....

To me the Edmund, Oklahoma Shamsul haq looks like an aged Mohammad Shamsul haq in the SJ photo (there is 37 year difference, at least, in the taking of both photos etc.) - we MAY have a bonafide 1971 war hero in Oklahoma - and he is your student. But I will leave it you if this Oklahoma Haq is one and the same.

Please note that at some point Oklahoma Shams was suffering from cancer.

I am not sure why he uses the Chohaan name....

I would love to ask him about his SJ - if he is the same guy...

Please let us know.

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## Patriot

Yes, Shams Chohan is Mohammad Shamsul Haq.You can see he mentioned Mohammad Shamsul Haq in other names area.Also, i found his number from his website and pmed to Sir Muradk.Let's see if he is the real guy as Sir Muradk will call him...


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## Patriot

Also emailed him..lets see if i get any reply from him.


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## Patriot

Yep, he is the one.Got reply from him.


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## shr_bwp

Patriot said:


> Yep, he is the one.Got reply from him.



If you think it is appropriate - ask him about the Shams vs Schames issue - and what does he think of the SJ and why did Schames not get any medal for his shoot down...

I wonder if he is in touch with Gul and Shamshad with whom he flew on those 3 shootdowns....

Someone on this forum also had wondered why he left the air force after shooting down 3 ....

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## shr_bwp

Patriot said:


> Yep, he is the one.Got reply from him.



.....better yet INVITE HIM TO JOIN this forum!!!!!!

...please keep us posted on your progress to get another real live hero on this forum....

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## Muradk

shr_bwp said:


> If you think it is appropriate - ask him about the Shams vs Schames issue - and what does he think of the SJ and why did Schames not get any medal for his shoot down...
> 
> I wonder if he is in touch with Gul and Shamshad with whom he flew on those 3 shootdowns....
> 
> Someone on this forum also had wondered why he left the air force after shooting down 3 ....



You are Mohammad Shamsul Haq arent you.


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## shr_bwp

Patriot said:


> Yep, he is the one.Got reply from him.





Muradk said:


> You are Mohammad Shamsul Haq arent you.



???????????

What makes you say that???????


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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> You are Mohammad Shamsul Haq arent you.



plus... Patriot just emailed him....

why would I ask somebody to email me??????

Confused......


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## Righteous_Fire

Muradk said:


> You are Mohammad Shamsul Haq arent you.



WOW! come to think of it........ shr_ could mean.........

oops!! edited.......Sorry, cause he replied..........


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## shr_bwp

righteous_fire said:


> WOW! come to think of it........ shr_ could mean.........
> 
> oops!! edited.......Sorry, cause he replied..........



WHAT IS THIS?????? Why would I pretend to be someone else???? What is going on?

all I did was point out websites and stories that are readily available to everyone and saw a discrepancy that no one has been able to resolve and I am greeted with suspicion.....REALLY - is this the height of paranoia or what?????

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## shr_bwp

righteous_fire said:


> WOW! come to think of it........ shr_ could mean.........
> 
> oops!! edited.......Sorry, cause he replied..........



I challenge YOU and Mr. MuradK to explain why you think I am this Mohd. Shamsul haq......please give a reasoned explanation....

and I hope Patriot took up my suggestion and invited him and I hope he joins...that will quiten these thoughts..Good God...Rozaaa lug raha hai kya?????


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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> You are Mohammad Shamsul Haq arent you.



Really? Murad Sahib: you say that Shams ul haq was your student and he would pretend to be someone else and not contact you directly???? Why would he do that --- you have his phone number, Call him in Oklahoma right now and ask him why he would do this and insult his Ustaad

I do not understand this.......


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## Muradk

Dude just chillout it was nothing you are going to give your self a heart Attack just relax that was a jock and he followed.

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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> Dude just chillout it was nothing you are going to give your self a heart Attack just relax that was a jock and he followed.





you got me.....


Any idea how to get a hold of Group Captain S M Hali?? Thanks.

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## Patriot

Asked him about the kills..he said there was another pilot with name SCHAMES UL HAQ who got 1 kill ..He himself got 3 confirmed and one unconfirmed SU-7 kill as the Su-7 was giving out smoke but indians claimed he landed just like one of Muradk's unconfirmed kill.

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## Righteous_Fire

shr_bwp said:


> I challenge YOU



Wow dude! Chill man! and read below:



Muradk said:


> Dude just chillout it was nothing you are going to give your self a heart Attack just relax that was a jock








PS: Sorry for the late reply, I was posting elsewhere, I hope its cool!! Sorry for any hard feelings

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## Muradk

I will send you halis contact.

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## shr_bwp

Patriot said:


> Asked him about the kills..he said there was another pilot with name SCHAMES UL HAQ who got 1 kill ..He himself got 3 confirmed and one unconfirmed SU-7 kill as the Su-7 was giving out smoke but indians claimed he landed just like one of Muradk's unconfirmed kill.



Thank you!

Obviously these websites including Hali are all wrong - they all give the credit to Flt. Lt. Schames (this Shams was a F/O at the time of the action). With all four (Schames, Shams, wingmen Shamshad and Gul), and other 14 Sqd. pilots Dilawar Hussain, Afzaal alive, clearing this up would be a cinch (I would hate to think one is claiming the other's kills)


I wish he would join the forum - though be interesting to record his story for posterity... a F/O with 3 kills and an SJ....really cool.....shame he left though.

Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies </HEAD> Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies </HEAD>


http://jpgleize.club.fr/aces/indpak.htm


http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/hali1a.html

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## Patriot

Just want to clarify that SCHAMES UL HAQ DID Get 1 kill..Shams-ul-Huq on the other hand got 3 kills and one unconfirmed Su-7 kill which was not claimed by anyone except himself but it could not be confirmed.

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## Muradk

shr_bwp said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Obviously these websites including Hali are all wrong - they all give the credit to Flt. Lt. Schames (this Shams was a F/O at the time of the action). With all four (Schames, Shams, wingmen Shamshad and Gul), and other 14 Sqd. pilots Dilawar Hussain, Afzaal alive, clearing this up would be a cinch (I would hate to think one is claiming the other's kills)
> 
> 
> I wish he would join the forum - though be interesting to record his story for posterity... a F/O with 3 kills and an SJ....really cool.....shame he left though.
> 
> Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies </HEAD> Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies </HEAD>
> 
> 
> http://jpgleize.club.fr/aces/indpak.htm
> 
> 
> http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/hali1a.html



ok on a serious note what is with you and Shames who did what and who got what its over buddy they were both hero's, PAF had about 7 Shames with different last names, I am really worried about you this shames case will give you an ulcer and that not good for you. I am serious what kind of closure are you looking for.
1 PAF admits they were wrong 
2 The pilots were wrong.
in either case things can't change we all know they were hero's just think 1 SQD against 10 IAF SQD pounding them every day with all they got and these sher ka bachas kept on fighting. *Second Rourke's Drift *

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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> ok on a serious note what is with you and Shames who did what and who got what its over buddy they were both hero's, PAF had about 7 Shames with different last names, I am really worried about you this shames case will give you an ulcer and that not good for you. I am serious what kind of closure are you looking for.
> 1 PAF admits they were wrong
> 2 The pilots were wrong.
> in either case things can't change we all know they were hero's just think 1 SQD against 10 IAF SQD pounding them every day with all they got and these sher ka bachas kept on fighting. *Second Rourke's Drift *



Firstly, thank you for your response.

Secondly, what WILL give me an ulcer is the inability to record history ACCURATELY, specially in cases like this when everyone who was involved is alive and well (Two pilots, two wingmen, a squadron full of cheering mates). History, and specially my favorite Military History is full of acknowledged inaccuracies (e.g. I am currently reading a book on the "race" to be top scorer between McGuire and Bong in the Pacific and it acknowleges that there several kills for both that never got acknowleged for want of witnesses). Here we have a perfect situation to set the record straight for someone, say, 50 years from now would not have a problem believing the record. Sir, do not worry there are far bigger problems in the world today that would give me an ulcer quicker than this - just turn on the TV!!!

Would you not want that the proper "Sher kaa Bacha" is acknowledged in every record keeping venue??? Hali's story can be corrected and so can the PIADS web record as well as Jagan... 

To me it is big deal that we have one chap getting three kills, getting a SJ as a F/O (how many have done that?) and that these so called history records are showing some one else had those kills... THAT is the kind of closure I am looking for, okay sir, with respect.

Thirdly, what is this Second Rourke's Drift ?


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## Righteous_Fire

You said!



shr_bwp said:


> the inability *to record* history *ACCURATELY*,



would you like to elaborate?


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## Patriot

shr_bwp said:


> Firstly, thank you for your response.
> 
> Secondly, what WILL give me an ulcer is the inability to record history ACCURATELY, specially in cases like this when everyone who was involved is alive and well (Two pilots, two wingmen, a squadron full of cheering mates). History, and specially my favorite Military History is full of acknowledged inaccuracies (e.g. I am currently reading a book on the "race" to be top scorer between McGuire and Bong in the Pacific and it acknowleges that there several kills for both that never got acknowleged for want of witnesses). Here we have a perfect situation to set the record straight for someone, say, 50 years from now would not have a problem believing the record. Sir, do not worry there are far bigger problems in the world today that would give me an ulcer quicker than this - just turn on the TV!!!
> 
> Would you not want that the proper "Sher kaa Bacha" is acknowledged in every record keeping venue??? Hali's story can be corrected and so can the PIADS web record as well as Jagan...
> 
> To me it is big deal that we have one chap getting three kills, getting a SJ as a F/O (how many have done that?) and that these so called history records are showing some one else had those kills... THAT is the kind of closure I am looking for, okay sir, with respect.
> 
> Thirdly, what is this Second Rourke's Drift ?


What you talking about mate..The official records credits Shams-ul-huq with 3 kills and that is correct..so where is the problem..?Schames-ul-huq got only 1 kill.


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## shr_bwp

righteous_fire said:


> You said!
> 
> 
> 
> would you like to elaborate?



I am not sure what elaboration you wish.... I think that one pilot has a certain number of kills and whatever record there is seems to be giving them to someone else.....even Mr. MuradK in his first posting on this issue (Schames vs Shams), in this thread (check it out) described Shamsulhaq as Skamish - which to me sounded like it WAS Schames who got the three kills - the constant use of Flt. Lt. to designate the pilot is another confusion. Now we have confirmation that it was the Shams and not Skamish or Schames who was a F/O at the time who got the 3 kills.

Bottom line: all the chaps are alive - if someone doubts the record of this Shams (which Hali seems to have as well as the other links shown)- get a hold of the other , and more importantly the wingmen (Shamshad and Gul) who are confirmed as being part of the action on that day (as well as the other 14 Sqn. pilots who were there) and resolve it - NO BIG DEAL. THE FUTURE GENERATIONS ARE OWED an accurate record specially when it is so easy to correct.


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## shr_bwp

Patriot said:


> What you talking about mate..The official records credits Shams-ul-huq with 3 kills and that is correct..so where is the problem..?Schames-ul-huq got only 1 kill.



Look at posts # 143 and 145 in this thread and you will get the jist of it.....


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## Patriot

shr_bwp said:


> I am not sure what elaboration you wish.... I think that one pilot has a certain number of kills and whatever record there is seems to be giving them to someone else.....even Mr. MuradK in his first posting on this issue (Schames vs Shams), in this thread (check it out) described Shamsulhaq as Skamish - which to me sounded like it WAS Schames who got the three kills - the constant use of Flt. Lt. to designate the pilot is another confusion. Now we have confirmation that it was the Shams and not Skamish or Schames who was a F/O at the time who got the 3 kills.
> 
> Bottom line: all the chaps are alive - if someone doubts the record of this Shams (which Hali seems to have as well as the other links shown)- get a hold of the other , and more importantly the wingmen (Shamshad and Gul) who are confirmed as being part of the action on that day (as well as the other 14 Sqn. pilots who were there) and resolve it - NO BIG DEAL. THE FUTURE GENERATIONS ARE OWED an accurate record specially when it is so easy to correct.


Oh you should not worry what GC Hali thinks.The thing is PAF official record states that Shams-ul-huq got the kills and that is exactly what matters and Sir Muradk too also stated this in his post where he posted the images.


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## Muradk

Now I am going to get an Ulcer someone call 911.

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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> Now I am going to get an Ulcer someone call 911.



...no need to react this way, everybody. I am sure that there are things that bother each of that I will find acceptable and vice versa, as in this case. So, no worries!

Mr. MuradK:

what is this Second Rourke's Drift?

I disagree - what Hali thinks IS pertinent......and needs to be corrected.


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## Muradk

Check out *Rocks drift battle*, One of the greatest battles ever took place year 1879. We were in the same boat in 1971 in BD PAF vs IAF

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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> Oh my GOD don't tell me buddy *Rocks drift battle*, One of the greatest battles ever took place year 1879.



Okay...how is it connected to this thread - I miss the similarity....


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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> Check out *Rocks drift battle*, One of the greatest battles ever took place year 1879. We were in the same boat in 1971 in BD PAF vs IAF



Okay - thank you. I did it check it on Wikipedia and thanks for the reference.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Muradk said:


> batmannow said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran back*
> 
> No seriously I am not jocking Naeem was in Air and at Risalawala and we were over Kamra and we heard GCI saying Naeem 4 hunter 20 miles and he says I am ready and 10 sec later Naeem is laughing is butt off when the hunters saw him they split and went back. Naeem shot a fighter 1 day before that so they knew that this area has a nutcase who is flying a starfighter so run.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> especially during nighttime escort and sortie operations, F-104 was very feared by IAF.
> 
> Amritsar radar (Fish-oil) was taken out by F104 midway towards the end of 1965 hostilities
Click to expand...

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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> Now I am going to get an Ulcer someone call 911.




Hahaha, discussing on one name....

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## shr_bwp

Muradk said:


> I will send you halis contact.



Would appreciate the contact, sir.


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## Muradk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Muradk said:
> 
> 
> 
> especially during nighttime escort and sortie operations, F-104 was very feared by IAF.
> 
> Amritsar radar (Fish-oil) was taken out by F104 midway towards the end of 1965 hostilities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that.
Click to expand...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Muradk said:


> Abu Zolfiqar said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am quoting the official accounts of the 1965 war, including that of S. Sajad Haider.
> 
> As far as I know, a Starfighter used Hi-Low-Hi profile and took out Fish-oil.
> 
> On the same day if i am not mistaken was the Kalaikunda operation, where 5 F-86 (Sqn leader Shabbir Hussain Syed, Flt Lts Baseer, Tariq Habib, Haleem, and Flg Officer Afzal) -guns only - turned 2 canberras and 4 vampires (on the tarmac) into fireworks --despite poor visibility and 2-3 AA guns.
Click to expand...


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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> Yar to tell you the truth if we had F-16 in 71 we still have lost BD it was the movement which we had no control over it and India was acting as a fuel on fire. PAF did there best and we had more kills which is again a debate which I don't want to go into.
> 
> Shamim Sahib
> Most people don't like Ex-COAS Shamim but he was a fine officer and a good pilot, He has done a lot for PAF people don't see that people only see that he served more than others and that was not his decision it was Zia how said no you will not retire Shamim sb was a great man a hard task master but gracious on the other hand very rewarding when it came to it. There were people in his time who bitched about " we have served all our lives we should be COAS" well hard luck, I know a few people who as a Pilot officers deserved to be the COAS. These were officer who everybody used to say 1 day he will become the Chief but destiny has its own way and we are all puppets.



Yes F-104 was a terror to Indian Pilots.. On a TV programe I heard A/C Imtiaz Bhatti telling that in 1965 war upon seeing 104 a sikh pilot said " Phajj oyeee 104 eee..."

There may be one of following incidents when sihk pilot said:

1) Indian Strike over sargodha, When FLT LT Amjad fought with 7 indian jets shot two of them and remaining ran away.

2) When an Indian Knat was forced to land at Pasrur airfield and Hakim ullah sb kept circling over it.

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## Wingman

Every body please listen!!!

Every member of the this forum should list out 
*5 pilots from 1947 to 1970.* This period includes piston engine to jet conversion plus performances in 1965 war.

5 pilots from 1970 to 1990. This period will look 1971 war plus Afghan War etc.

Every one should give the names of the pilots who they think are the best..no discussion just their flying hours, planes shot downs, etc. Just give 5 names..


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## Muradk

dreamer said:


> Yes F-104 was a terror to Indian Pilots.. On a TV programe I heard A/C Imtiaz Bhatti telling that in 1965 war upon seeing 104 a sikh pilot said " Phajj oyeee 104 eee..."
> 
> You are right Sir Imtiaz would never lie.
> 
> Over Kamra Butt he is engaged with 2 hunters, We get a call he is out numbered so we drop our tanks and go for him now when we enter the fight the ATC say by the way you just had a baby boy he says what a boy and he goes and hits a high tension cable We saw the hunter split and run away I thought they saw 4 of us but no they ran away because he had a high tension cable stuck sideways in his nose appox 200 ft long, We come closer and Andarbi say run  he will kill us all and I looked carefully and the cable was there he had a hard time flying now the problem was how to land so we told AAGs men to run out of there nests he finally landed so did we , He get off get into the jeep goes into the ATC tower and punches the ATC officer knocks he front 2 teeth out " You SOB couldn't you wait for another sec before you told me I had a God dame son" we are all laughing and he goes and I say where are you going he says to see that SOB and I said who he says blody son of mine if its mine
> During war sometimes such things made us forget that we are in a war and can die any moment.

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## batmannow

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Muradk said:
> 
> 
> 
> especially during nighttime escort and sortie operations, F-104 was very feared by IAF.
> 
> Amritsar radar (Fish-oil) was taken out by F104 midway towards the end of 1965 hostilities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> back in 1985 or 86 at FASIL AIR BASE , i saw frist time, that bird & belive me, even it was out of commision , i simply fell in love with it.
> 
> i still love that bird more thn , IRON EAGAL!
> its unfortunate that , PAF cant play that bird longer!
Click to expand...

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## batmannow

Muradk said:


> Abu Zolfiqar said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sir, wht you think about (shaheed) rafiqee,s flying capabilities?
> btw , i think he SHOULD HAVE been givin (NI) INSTEAD (SJ)?
Click to expand...

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## Patriot

Rafique was an excellent pilot according to several PAF Pilots including Sir Muradk.Sir Murad is huge fan of Rafaique :p.If i am not wrong Sir Murad was very very young pilot when Rafique was KIA.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

even by today's standards, the thrust-weight ratio on those bad-boys is impressive.

I think that as technology for Aircrafts becomes more advanced, the art of flying (especially combat flying) is being lost.

Everything now is fly-by-wire, BVR, and ECM.


In those days, things were hydraulic. Pilots made calculations in their head when the compass/altimeter etc. were giving incorrect readings.....the operational range of aircrafts were limited to no more than 230-400 miles depending on whether aux tanks were jettisoned. A lot of the dog-fights were taking place at around 200 feet AGL to 2000 feet. Quick thinking and reflexes were most crucial (as they are, of course, today). 

Those were real combat. 


PAF is awake and aware to the changing realities, and the modernization program is commendable, as we have entered and familiarized ourself with the 4th and 4.5 gen. technology. For that, we salute them.


But learning more and more about the historic battles and the equipments and capabilities of those days, I can't help but feel nostalgic. 



And I'm only 25.

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## batmannow

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> even by today's standards, the thrust-weight ratio on those bad-boys is impressive.
> 
> I think that as technology for Aircrafts becomes more advanced, the art of flying (especially combat flying) is being lost.
> 
> Everything now is fly-by-wire, BVR, and ECM.
> 
> 
> In those days, things were hydraulic. Pilots made calculations in their head when the compass/altimeter etc. were giving incorrect readings.....the operational range of aircrafts were limited to no more than 230-400 miles depending on whether aux tanks were jettisoned. A lot of the dog-fights were taking place at around 200 feet AGL to 2000 feet. Quick thinking and reflexes were most crucial (as they are, of course, today).
> 
> Those were real combat.
> 
> 
> PAF is awake and aware to the changing realities, and the modernization program is commendable, as we have entered and familiarized ourself with the 4th and 4.5 gen. technology. For that, we salute them.
> 
> 
> But learning more and more about the historic battles and the equipments and capabilities of those days, I can't help but feel nostalgic.
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm only 25.


& i belive you , will be a shining star,soon in the future for pakistan!

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## Muradk

Patriot said:


> Rafique was an excellent pilot according to several PAF Pilots including Sir Muradk.Sir Murad is huge fan of Rafaique :p.If i am not wrong Sir Murad was very very young pilot when Rafique was KIA.



Like I said PAF has produced one of the best fighter pilots in the world , Rafique SB was such an example. Outstanding Officer and a TOP GUN what he did that day became an example, He took fire to save 
C Chaudhry and for him to get a kill without thinking twice. When he told Cecil to take over he knew he is going to die to save his friends life he gave his.
He should have been given a Nishan-e-Haider but it doesn't matter he is above that his name will live for ever and ever, Such men don't die.





[/IMG]
PAF scored its first victories when Squadron Leader Sarfraz Rafiqui and Flight Lieutenant Imtiaz Bhatti shot down two Vampires each who were attacking Pakistani troops in Chamb




[/IMG]

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## Abu Zolfiqar

what about F.S. Hussein ---who was known as a VERY daring and talented acrobatic and combat pilot.

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## sonicboom

dreamer said:


> Yes F-104 was a terror to Indian Pilots.. On a TV programe I heard A/C Imtiaz Bhatti telling that in 1965 war upon seeing 104 a sikh pilot said " Phajj oyeee 104 eee..."
> 
> There may be one of following incidents when sihk pilot said:
> 
> 1) Indian Strike over sargodha, When FLT LT Amjad fought with 7 indian jets shot two of them and remaining ran away.
> 
> 2) When an Indian Knat was forced to land at Pasrur airfield and Hakim ullah sb kept circling over it.



Dreamer, I have 2 questions if you please can answer for me as follows:

I know one of the pilot&#8217;s shot down by Flight Lt. Amjad Hussain khan in 1965 war was Squadron Leader A. B. Devayya of No.1 Squadron of IAF while flying a Mystere IVA and was killed. 

*1. Do you know who was the 2nd pilot and type of aircraft shot down by Flight Lt. Amjad Hussain Khan as I have not able to find anywhere?*

According to PAF version, debris from the exploding Mystere struck the Starfighter, and Amjad was forced to eject at low altitude. However Indian claim is different than the PAF version and Sq Leader Devayya was credited with shooting down Flt Lt Amjad Hussain&#8217;s F-104 and was awarded the highest Indian medal of bravery. I remember somewhere reading that PAF has also accepted the fact that Flt Lt Amjad&#8217;s plane was indeed shot down and not struck by the debris. 

*2. Has the PAF version changed since that?*



More victories and losses of F-104 both in 1965 and 19771 wars (PAF version):

*1965 War*

September 6, Flight Lt. Aftab Alam Khan, downed one Dassault Mystere IVA fighter-bomber with a Sidewinder at an altitude of 5,000 feet and damaged a second.

September 21, Flying Officer Jamal A. Khan, scored a solid Sidewinder hit on an Indian Canberra at 33,000 feet over Fazilka. The Indian navigator was killed, but the pilot, Flight Lt. M.M. Lowe, bailed out and was taken prisoner.

*1971War*

December 5, during an attack on a radar installation at Amritsar, Flight Lt. Amjad Hussain Khan was once again shot down this time by anti-aircraft fire and he ejected from his F-104 and was taken prisoner. He is the only pilot who had to bail out both in 1965 and 1971 wars.

December 10, Wing Commander Arif Iqbal scored a victory during a raid on Okha Harbor when he downed a land-based Breguet Alize turboprop anti-submarine patrol plane of the Indian Navy over the Gulf of Kutch.

December 12, a pair of F-104A s tried to strafe the Indian airfield at Jamnagar and themselves were attacked by two Mig-21FLs of No. 47 Squadron, IAF. Flight Lt. Bharat Bhushan Soni in pursuit. fired three bursts from his GSh-23 cannon and shot down one of the F-104&#8217;s. The Wing Comdr. Merven Middlecoat, a decorated veteran of the 1965 war, ejected in the Arabia Sea but was never found. 

December 17, when No. 9 Squadron's Starfighters clashed with Mig-21s of No. 29 Squadron, IAF over Umarkot. Flight Lt. A. Datta blew the tail of F-104 piloted by Flight Lt. Samad Ali Changezi and hence killing him.

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## Muradk

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what about F.S. Hussein ---who was known as a VERY daring and talented acrobatic and combat pilot.


You mean Retd Air Cdre F S Hussain not Hussein joined 1949 died April 7th 1969.


On 15th August 1950, an air display was held in aid of the RPAF benevolent fund. Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, after reviewing the squadrons, addressed the officers and men of the RPAF, telling them that he was glad to record that not only expansion of the forces but a very great advance in technical efficiency had also been made. About 150,000 people witnessed the air display (the first of its kind in the capital) described by experts as a demonstration of the highest order; precision bombing, rocketry and supply dropping were highly appreciated. The spectators were amazed to see Bristol Freighters disgorging their 28,000 lbs. of supplies, including 3 jeeps and 30 soldiers each, in less than three minutes. The best item on the programme was an aerobatics display in a Fury fighter Piloted by Flight Lieutenant F S Hussain. An unfortunate incident during the same display was a crash in which Pilot Officer Akther Hussain lost his life.

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## SeaGull

Deleted

How do you upload utube videos?


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## Jabar 1

Muradk said:


> You mean Retd Air Cdre F S Hussain not Hussein joined 1949 died April 7th 1969.
> 
> 
> On 15th August 1950, an air display was held in aid of the RPAF benevolent fund. Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, after reviewing the squadrons, addressed the officers and men of the RPAF, telling them that he was glad to record that not only expansion of the forces but a very great advance in technical efficiency had also been made. About 150,000 people witnessed the air display (the first of its kind in the capital) described by experts as a demonstration of the highest order; precision bombing, rocketry and supply dropping were highly appreciated. The spectators were amazed to see Bristol Freighters disgorging their 28,000 lbs. of supplies, including 3 jeeps and 30 soldiers each, in less than three minutes. The best item on the programme was an aerobatics display in a Fury fighter Piloted by Flight Lieutenant F S Hussain. An unfortunate incident during the same display was a crash in which Pilot Officer Akther Hussain lost his life.



The British take pride in breaking records but there are couple of records which PAF broke which they have tried and haven't broken.

FS Hussian record of Air to Ground still stands high.
32 Sabers doing a loop.
Fastest kill MM Alam.
Group Captain Douglas Bader in WWII his record was broken in 1986 by PAF.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Muradk said:


> You mean Retd Air Cdre F S Hussain not Hussein joined 1949 died April 7th 1969.
> 
> 
> On 15th August 1950, an air display was held in aid of the RPAF benevolent fund. Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, after reviewing the squadrons, addressed the officers and men of the RPAF, telling them that he was glad to record that not only expansion of the forces but a very great advance in technical efficiency had also been made. About 150,000 people witnessed the air display (the first of its kind in the capital) described by experts as a demonstration of the highest order; precision bombing, rocketry and supply dropping were highly appreciated. The spectators were amazed to see Bristol Freighters disgorging their 28,000 lbs. of supplies, including 3 jeeps and 30 soldiers each, in less than three minutes. The best item on the programme was an aerobatics display in a Fury fighter Piloted by Flight Lieutenant F S Hussain. An unfortunate incident during the same display was a crash in which Pilot Officer Akther Hussain lost his life.



Thank you dear sir. Yes I meant retired Air Cdre. 

I heard that he always used to steal the show and was highly highly respected as a pilot and as a human. 

As the first young Flying Officer, he created the Commonwealth Air-to-Air Gunnery record at the Royal Air Force Central Gunnery School in August 1948





> The British take pride in breaking records but there are couple of records which PAF broke which they have tried and haven't broken.
> 
> FS Hussian record of Air to Ground still stands high.
> 32 Sabers doing a loop.
> Fastest kill MM Alam.
> Group Captain Douglas Bader in WWII his record was broken in 1986 by PAF.




that's correct 

the first world aviation record we broke on February 1958 - was during an Air Power and acrobatics demonstration when King Zahir Shah visited Pakistan. I believe there were 16 Sabres (the 'Falcon-16' team) flying in perfect diamond formation and performing aerial stunts. 

I have a written piece on the actual maneuvers done. But basically our guys were dealing with consistent 5+ Gs while doing 360 degree loops and other maneuvers which impressed the crowd below. 

According to accounts I have heard, the Falcons made the cover of Flight and Aeroplane --british magazine.

the RAF (which laid foundations of PAF) was so shocked!!! They eventually performed loops with 21 aircrafts in order to break Pakistani record. I'm not sure which aircrafts they used to do this.

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## Muradk

[/IMG]

PAF was very stingy when it came to giving SJ or TJ a lot of pilots even with 2 kills never got medals. Specially in 71 war.

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## Najam Khan

Muradk said:


> You mean Retd Air Cdre F S Hussain not Hussein joined 1949 died April 7th 1969.



Here is a good collection of photos from Air Cdre FS Hussain's colelction, looks like he was a very good aviation photogrpher as well.

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## Wingman

Muradk said:


> dreamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes F-104 was a terror to Indian Pilots.. On a TV programe I heard A/C Imtiaz Bhatti telling that in 1965 war upon seeing 104 a sikh pilot said " Phajj oyeee 104 eee..."
> 
> You are right Sir Imtiaz would never lie.
> 
> Over Kamra Butt he is engaged with 2 hunters, We get a call he is out numbered so we drop our tanks and go for him now when we enter the fight the ATC say by the way you just had a baby boy he says what a boy and he goes and hits a high tension cable We saw the hunter split and run away I thought they saw 4 of us but no they ran away because he had a high tension cable stuck sideways in his nose appox 200 ft long, We come closer and Andarbi say run  he will kill us all and I looked carefully and the cable was there he had a hard time flying now the problem was how to land so we told AAGs men to run out of there nests he finally landed so did we , He get off get into the jeep goes into the ATC tower and punches the ATC officer knocks he front 2 teeth out " You SOB couldn't you wait for another sec before you told me I had a God dame son" we are all laughing and he goes and I say where are you going he says to see that SOB and I said who he says blody son of mine if its mine
> During war sometimes such things made us forget that we are in a war and can die any moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :
> Sir G september 6 issue (email me)
Click to expand...

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## Wingman

A/C F S Hussain was called King of Fury.

Post No. 206 by Sir MuradK!!! Great Post.
F/O Shamshad died at the age of 59 last year

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## Wingman

NAjAM Khan said:


> Here is a good collection of photos from Air Cdre FS Hussain's colelction, looks like he was a very good aviation photogrpher as well.



How did F S Hussain Sb died in 1969...


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## Zee-Gen

Even as a young Flying Officer, Fuad Shahid Hussain&#8217;s incredible mastery in low level aerobatics became legendary in the PAF. Manoeuvring just a few feet above the ground in a Hawker Fury, his propeller was kicking up dust on the runway, or just missing the tree tops in a graceful 8-point roll, it all look like child&#8217;s play. By the early 1950s he was a rapidly rising star &#8211; now known by thousands throughout Pakistan as just &#8220;F.S.&#8221; &#8211; and a role model of every fighter pilot in the air force. Tragically, &#8220;the prince of pilots&#8221; lost his life to diabetes at the young age of 40, when he was an Air Commodore.

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## Zee-Gen

THE PAYBILLS - PAF's FIRST JET AEROBATICS TEAM

In 1952, No 11 Squadron, Drigh Road (now Faisal) Air Base, formed an aerobatics team with the curious name "The Paybills," that happened to be the squadron's call sign. This was the PAF's first jet aerobatics team, flying the squadron's Attackers. The painting shows the formation flying over Manora. This team was led by F S Hussain, the renowned flyer and aerial acrobat of his time. 

The Team: Squadron Leader F S Hussain
Flight Lieutenant M Z Masud
Flying Officer A U Ahmed
Pilot Officer Jamal A Khan

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## Jabar 1

dreamer said:


> How did F S Hussain Sb died in 1969...



From what I know he died in a helicopter crash in UK


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## Wingman

I heard he died due to natural causes...i am not sure about it..


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## Desert Fox

Muradk said:


> Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
> ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.
> Lets start with UAE My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF. I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is 8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great, Now 4pm Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.
> 
> Now Syrians taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.
> 
> Iraqis and Iranians man they had issues teach them something 1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot. Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw



come on, the Arab's can't be that bad? I'm sure some of them got some kills!

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## Super Falcon

MM ALAM for me without a doubt he was best

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## Vassnti

The question depends totaly on who you ask. 

From a aircraft maintenance officer the one who doesnt f*** up the aircraft he just fixed.

Ask a pilot and he will say why me of course. 

From the british infantry any one who doesnt give him air support.

But the best has to be one that can learn on the job.







Military Jokes Military Humor

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## Gasht

> Originally Posted by Muradk
> Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
> ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.
> Lets start with UAE My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF. I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is 8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great, Now 4pm Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.
> 
> Now Syrians taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.
> 
> Iraqis and Iranians man they had issues teach them something 1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot. Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw
> com



dude the guy who flew straight into the wall of 3 to 4 story (pentagon) building was a Saudi pilot, i highly doubt even some americans wouldn't be able to pull off that Manoeuvre

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## zraver

[/quote]Who was the best fighter pilot ever? This is a question often debated, and never settled. Manfred von Richtoven (better known as the Red Baron of World War I) is one such contender. Another is Erich Hartmann, who is the all-time kills leader with 352 in World War II. Was it David McCampbell, who shot down nine aircraft in a single sortie on October 24, 1944? A case could be made for each of them, but the fact is, one cannot really determine who the best of all time was.[/quote]

From Sept 1941 onwards it can only be Hans-Joachim Marseille. What he did after that date is impossible to believe if not for the witnesses. 388 combat flights and a total of 158 kills

His attack method to break up formations, which he perfected, resulted in a high lethality ratio, and in rapid, multiple victories per attack. On 3 June 1942, Marseille attacked alone a formation of 16 Curtiss P-40 fighters and shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Douglas Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories). His wingman Rainer P&#246;ttgen, nicknamed Fliegendes Z&#228;hlwerk the ("Flying Counting Machine"),[43] said of this fight:

All the enemy were shot down by Marseille in a turning dogfight. As soon as he shot, he needed only to glance at the enemy plane. His pattern [of gunfire] began at the front, the engine's nose, and consistently ended in the cockpit. How he was able to do this not even he could explain. With every dogfight he would throttle back as far as possible; this enabled him to fly tighter turns. His expenditure of ammunition in this air battle was 360 rounds (60 per kill)

1 September 1942 had been Marseille's most successful day, destroying 17 enemy aircraft, and September would see him score 54 kills, his most productive month.[46] The 17 enemy aircraft shot down included eight in 10 minutes, as a result of this feat he was presented with a type 82 Volkswagen K&#252;belwagen by an Italian Regia Aeronautica squadron, on which his Italian comrades had painted "Otto" (Italian language: Otto = eight).[47] This was the most aircraft from Western Allied air forces shot down by a single pilot in one day.[48] Only one pilot, Emil "Bully" Lang on 4 November 1943, would better this score, against the Soviet Air Force on the Eastern Front.[49]

I know of no other pilot that could go 16:1 with some of the 16 be aces and win, and no other pilot ever did so well vs the RAF. Of his 158 kills, all but 2 were fighters not bombers or transports.


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## Karakoram8 Eagle

SeaGull said:


> *RIGHTO - MM ALAM FOREVER
> AND - SAIFUL AZAM*



BEST PILOT MM ALAM 5 SHOTS IN ONLY 1 MINUTE....!

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## Karakoram8 Eagle

Patriot said:


> M. M. Alam is not Bengali..He is bihari hence he stayed with Pakistan after 71 and Muradk knows a lot more about MM ALAM Then you so please stop with your conspiracy theories.



ANY CONFUSION HERE....?


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## Karakoram8 Eagle

I think You ArE RiGhT buddy...?


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## Karakoram8 Eagle

Vassnti said:


> The question depends totaly on who you ask.
> 
> From a aircraft maintenance officer the one who doesnt f*** up the aircraft he just fixed.
> 
> Ask a pilot and he will say why me of course.
> 
> From the british infantry any one who doesnt give him air support.
> 
> But the best has to be one that can learn on the job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Jokes Military Humor



What A pilot flying so low i think he is crazy...?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Karakoram8 Eagle said:


> BEST PILOT MM ALAM 5 SHOTS IN ONLY 1 MINUTE....!



Wow ... I have to agree that is a fantastic record


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## Muradk

Karakoram8 Eagle said:


> What A pilot flying so low i think he is crazy...?



He is not flying low can get grounded now a days. You can zoom in and out.


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## F86 Saber

Sir i just want to know if the record set by Mr. Aalam is "Claimed" or "Accepted" and "Confirmed" ???


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## keebler

John Boyd was the best fighter pilot in the world, and possibly ever. At least, John Boyd was the best fighter pilot in America. He returned from a combat tour in Korea to become an instructor at the Fighter Weapons School, the Air Force's premier dog-fighting academy at Nellis Air Force Base out in the desert 10 miles north of Las
Vegas. There he was known as "40-Second Boyd," the pilot who could defeat any
opponent in simulated air-to-air combat in less than 40 seconds. Like any gunslinger
with a nickname and a reputation, Boyd was challenged. Some of the best pilots
in the Air Force called him out at one time or another. So did the best pilots in the Navy
and the Marines. So did exchange pilots from a half-dozen countries. He took on the
best pilots in the free world. But no man could be found who was better in the air than
John Boyd. Boyd was more than a great stick and rudder man; he was that rarest of
creatures - a thinking fighter pilot. Anyone familiar with the Air Force can tell you two
things with confidence: One, fighter pilots are known for testosterone, not gray matter;
and, two, military doctrine is dictated by generals. But in 1960 when he was a young
captain, John Boyd developed and wrote "The Aerial Attack Study" which became
official Air Force doctrine, the bible of air combat; first in America, and then, when it
was declassified, for air forces around the world. Put another way, John Boyd, while still
a junior officer, changed the way every air force in the world flies and fights.

Look him up.

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## M8R

John Boyd i think was the best instructor you can say father of modern day dogfights where as the best combat pilot was Erich Hartmann.

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## keebler

It is true that Erich Hartmann was very good with his guns and leading enemy aircraft while he fired. However, he was fighting mostly Soviet aircraft accounting for 345 of his 352 kills, of those, 260 were fighter aircraft. The Soviet pilots flew inferior aircraft with painted on gun sites that were not very accurate. Hartmann flew most of his victories piloting the Messerschmitt BF 109 w/ the MG 151 cannon, which is a superior aircraft compared to Soviet aircraft of the time. Fighting the Soviets did give him extrememly valuable flight time and experience. So he was much more experienced than many of the pilots out there by the time he engaged the American's for the first time.

In his first engagement with the Americans who were flying the P-51, there were four P-51 aircraft against an unknown number of Luftwaffe, and he was able to shoot down two aircraft as his comrades shot down the other two. In a later engagement with an unknown number of American pilots flying the P-51 against an unknown number of Luftwaffe, it is reported he was able to shoot down four aircraft in a single engagement.
In his fifth engagement with American Pilots flying the P-51B (the first P-51 had some problems), he was reported to have been able to shoot down two more aircraft. In this engagement, however, in his effort to avoid allowing himself to be shot down he ran out of ammunition and fuel resulting in his having to bail out of the aircraft. One of the P-51Bs flown by Lt. Robert J. Goebel of the 308th Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, broke away and headed straight for him. Goebel was making a camera pass to record the bailout and banked away from him only at the last moment, waving at Hartmann as he went by.

So, if you consider these statistics against decent pilots with decent aircraft, he has 8 kills which is still nearly a double ace. I'm inclined to believe he had only 7 kills against American pilots in the P-51 or he had 344 Soviet kills, because the math doesn't add up. If he had 352 total kills and 345 were Soviet, that only leaves 7 kills. Either way... Hartmann was an amazing fighter pilot.

John Boyd, flew the American equivalent to the Soviet Mig in Korea, against the Mig, and many say the Mig was the superior aircraft. John Boyd had very few sorties over Korea toward the end of the war. John Boyd arrived late for the Korean War. He was transferred to Suwon Air Base in South Korea in March 1953. U.S. Air Force fighter tactics called for the use of the flight of four as the fighting element. The flight consisted of flight leader and his wingman, accompanied by an element leader and his wingman. The flight leader and the element leader were the shooters while the duty of the wingman was to cover his leaders six oclock position. A new pilot had to fly about thirty missions as a wingman before he could be an element leader and shooter. 

U.S. pilots could not cross the Yalu river under no circumstances. American pilots most often encountered enemy aircraft in MiG Alley, the thirty-mile wide stretch south of the Yalu river. Despite this very restrictive Rules of Engagement (ROE) some American pilots strayed into Manchuria and got their first aerial victories over there. Tactics used by experienced F-86 pilots were essentially the same used by P-51 Mustang pilots during World War II but at higher altitudes and greater speeds. 

John Boyd was credited with damaging a MiG-15 on 30 June 1953. There are no official details, but the story goes that Boyd and RAF exchange officer Jock Maitland flew north of Yalu river and encountered a formation of MiGs. By June 1953 Soviet pilots were no longer flying in North Korea, which is the reason the exchange ratios developed dramatically in favour of the Americans. Hostilities ceased before Boyd was promoted to element leader, so he never was a shooter. Boyd was the best F-86 Sabre pilot in his squadron for which he was made the assistant operations officer on 20 October 1953.

As I've already stated, John Boyd flew as instructor, but flew against identical aircraft, and could beat any pilot in a dog fight with him within 40 seconds.

In my opinion, it doesn't get any better than that.


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## aliyusuf

keebler said:


> It is true that Erich Hartmann was very good with his guns and leading enemy aircraft while he fired. However, he was fighting mostly Soviet aircraft accounting for 345 of his 352 kills, of those, 260 were fighter aircraft. The Soviet pilots flew inferior aircraft with painted on gun sites that were not very accurate. Hartmann flew most of his victories piloting the Messerschmitt BF 109 w/ the MG 151 cannon, which is a superior aircraft compared to Soviet aircraft of the time. Fighting the Soviets did give him extrememly valuable flight time and experience. So he was much more experienced than many of the pilots out there by the time he engaged the American's for the first time. ...



What is your opinion of the Yak-3 (4500+ built) and the Polikarpov I-16 (8500+ built). Do you consider them as inferior as well?


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## keebler

Absolutely not... the yak-3 was a nice handling aircraft and did very well against german fighters, but it was a prototype in 1941 and didn't come into service until late 1944, but by then, Hartmann had already had most of his kills under his belt. However, the wartime version of the fighter had problems that were unresolved during the war.

The Polikarpov I-16 was a sturdy aircraft, but couldn't stand up to the maneuverability of the Messerschmitt and literally had inaccurate, painted on sights, gun jamming issues, bullet penetration issues. The type 5 and 6 dominated the skys pre-Messerschmitt BF-109. They were more like the American first fighters of the war. Once the Messerschmitt BF-109 entered the war, the I-16 couldn't keep up. The Americans built the P-51 and the British had the Spitfire. The Spitfire did extremely well against Messerschmitts.

That's why the Soviets started to build a Soviet version of the British Spitfire in the Yak-3, but couldn't get it's issues fixed prior to the war end.


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## SHAMS SJ

I was , i am and hopefullf will always be
MY name was mohammad shamsul haq i live in oklahoma usa and i now go by the ethe


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## SHAMS SJ

I am sorry your site just stopped while I was writing.
I was & am the one and only SHAMS & the best fighter pilot ever, everyone is welcome to contact me at schohaan@yahoo.com
there are a lot of mistakes in ur records & i am alive and well in USA.
Yes, I shot 4 a/c in one combat.


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## Super Falcon

For me world record holder M.M ALAM destoryed 4 indian jets in less than minutes no one comes close at that time no missiles only gun man immpossible to do it again for anyone


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## SHAMS SJ

I am the real Shams, i now live in Oklahoma USA i changed my name to Shams a.chohaan ( from Mohammad Shamsul Haq ) 40 years and our records are still confusing. You are all invited to contact me either here or at schohaan@yahoo. Com to verify any misquotes in the blogs, which seem plenty. 
I was, I am and Inshallah will always remain the best fighter Pilot the PAF ever produced.
Thanks
shams (sj)

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## SBD-3

Sham.sj said:


> *I was, I am and Inshallah will always remain the best fighter Pilot the PAF ever produced.*


Pardon me sir, but isn't that a bit rude. If I were a Pilot,I would have rather wished my successors to be more capable than me so that the tradition of excellence lives on. Somethings are more important than records, I wish every coming pilot to be better than the best pilot like you.

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## SHAMS SJ

It is very heart breaking, when I see you the PAF jocks discuss the Ace Pilots of the world and forget about your own. Our PAF history is so distorted that some of you dont even know the names of Pilots, whoes deeds made PAF famous all over the world. I for one shot 4 (four) enemy aircraft in one combat sortie over Dacca with hundreds of ground witnesses, yet I see some of you looking for the right Shamsul Haq. That is me, now known as SHAMS CHOHAAN. Add the SJ. I now live in USA schohaan@yahoo.com. For once correct the History. And be proud of some of us that fought the forgotten war. On the other hand any pilot could have done what the now famous M.M.Alam did ( no big deal, peace of cake).

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sham.sj said:


> It is very heart breaking, when I see you the PAF jocks discuss the Ace Pilots of the world and forget about your own. Our PAF history is so distorted that some of you dont even know the names of Pilots, whoes deeds made PAF famous all over the world. I for one shot 4 (four) enemy aircraft in one combat sortie over Dacca with hundreds of ground witnesses, yet I see some of you looking for the right Shamsul Haq. That is me, now known as SHAMS CHOHAAN. Add the SJ. I now live in USA schohaan@yahoo.com. For once correct the History. And be proud of some of us that fought the forgotten war. On the other hand any pilot could have done what the now famous M.M.Alam did ( no big deal, peace of cake).



THANK U SIR FOR THE SERVICES U HAvE RENDERED FOR THE MOTHERLAND... WE SALUTE U AND OTHER HEROES LIKE U.......But saying tht wat MM Alam did was a piece of cake isnt exactly right either..... anyways welcome and enjoy ur stay.... we have PAF heroes frm 65 and 71 on PDF ...Like Sir Murad K and others....
God bless u and our other heroes...Ameen.

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## Zeluvaa

Sham.sj said:


> I was, I am and Inshallah will always remain the best fighter Pilot the PAF ever produced.
> Thanks
> shams (sj)



Someone certainly thinks too much of himself 
Even if you were/are the best, don't you think it is a bit narcissistic of yourself to publicly proclaim that? Tone down the self-love bro


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## MastanKhan

Sham.sj said:


> I am the real Shams, i now live in Oklahoma USA i changed my name to Shams a.chohaan ( from Mohammad Shamsul Haq ) 40 years and our records are still confusing. You are all invited to contact me either here or at schohaan@yahoo. Com to verify any misquotes in the blogs, which seem plenty.
> I was, I am and Inshallah will always remain the best fighter Pilot the PAF ever produced.
> Thanks
> shams (sj)



Hi,

If you are the one---then I am proud of you---great job----thankyou and God bless you for the services rendered to the nation.

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## SHAMS SJ

READ THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE HISTORY AND TRY TO GET AERIAL PHOTO REALS FROM THE LIABRARY OF CONGRESS, THEY HAVE A TRUNK FULL OF CINE AS WELL AS THE ONES SHOT BY MEDIA, I KNOW BECAUSE I FLEW THE TRUNK FULL OF FILMS TO AQYAB, BURMA IN A AGRO AVIATION AIRCRAFT AFTER THE WAR IN 1971.
SHAMS

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## AUSTERLITZ

Goes beteween richtofen,marseille and hartmann.
Manfred von Richthofen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


What goes against hartmann is that he scored most of his kills in the eastern front.Russian planes were outdated and their pilots very badly trained at that time due to purges and lack of organization in the red air force.
The same problem of more kills vs eastern also goes against gunther rall[third highest in history] Günther Rall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and gerhard barkhorn.[second highest]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Barkhorn

Best ever ground attack ace hans ulrich rudel.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Best ever tactician boelcke.Also galland is a contender,as is molders.
Oswald Boelcke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marseille was probably the best of ww2.he had only 160 odd kills but all of them against british or american aircraft and most over africa where the luftwaffe was heavily outnumbered.The raf was recognised by the luftwaffe as its greatest opponent.And alos unlike the others all but 4 of his victories came against fighter aircraft.
Most of the luftwaffe pilots recognized him as the greatest and probably only matched by richtofen.Though richtofen's style better matched that of hartmann.Both were hunters.Cautious and oppurtunistic.

Note that all of these were germans.That says something about them.

About marseille-

Hans-Joachim Marseille, By Major Robert Tate, USAF
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many of the other top Luftwaffe fighter aces like Adolf Galland and Erich Hartmann regarded him as "the best". Günther Rall said of Marseille, "an excellent pilot and brilliant marksman. I think he was the best shot in the Luftwaffe". [67]
[i took this para from german library archives on marseille]
So in my view richtofen or marseille.
ground attack rudel uncontested.
Organizers boelcke,then molders or galland.In this aspect u should take several british too.Dowding one of them.
But boelcke is the 'father of fighter tactics'.

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## Chogy

With the possible exception of Marseille, I don't believe the extreme high scoring German Aces were necessarily so vastly superior to allied pilots; it was their length of service and target-rich environment that allowed them to rack up those enormous tallies, along with their talent.

If you have thousands of pilots that start flying for years on end, some of them will survive the whole war, and of those, a few will rack up 200, 300 kills using a stalk and shoot methodology that says more about visual acuity, stealthy maneuvering, and delivering the hammer blow, rather than raw stick and rudder skills.

It really is an impossible question to answer. Would Boyd take Hartmann with both in F-100's? Probably. Train Richtofen in an F-16, would he be better than the many superb pilots in that platform?

I admire the WW1 pilots most of all, because they literally invented an art form, the aerial ballet that is BFM. Most died - those that survived took what they knew, added to it, and passed it on to new guys.

IMO, the very best pilots are those that can simultaneously fight their own opponent, and also continue to aid/control other members of his flight with his superior situational awareness - and get them all home again. I have seen superb pilots who never progressed much beyond wingman, because they lacked this multitasking ability. How can you quantify all of these intangibles? It is very difficult.

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## shr_bwp

SHAMS SJ said:


> READ THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE HISTORY AND TRY TO GET AERIAL PHOTO REALS FROM THE LIABRARY OF CONGRESS, THEY HAVE A TRUNK FULL OF CINE AS WELL AS THE ONES SHOT BY MEDIA, I KNOW BECAUSE I FLEW THE TRUNK FULL OF FILMS TO AQYAB, BURMA IN A AGRO AVIATION AIRCRAFT AFTER THE WAR IN 1971.
> SHAMS



Sir:

a) Thank you.

b) You have not stated so, but you seem to be suggesting that the United States somehow ended up with the trunk - is that correct?
If so, knowing a little bit of American law, would that material not be classified as secret? There are of course laws that make secret material available, but we need to be sure that the material is with the US Archives. How and what evidence can we have that the US has the material?

c) According to AM Dilawar Hussain, because of the hurried nature of the departure of the pilots, a trunk full of pilot logs etc. was left behind in Dacca. Does this mean that there were at least two - one with you and the other left behind?


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## emotionless_teenage

Turkey and Greek air force got some of the best pilot around

thanks to more than half a decade of standoff that is(and thus their F-16 clocked one of the longest flight hour ever)


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## IndianArmy

*Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon*, Under heavy fire, he was able to take off in his Gnat and engage the Sabres,In the ensuing air battle, Sekhon scored a direct hit on one Sabre,and set another ablaze,The four remaining Sabres pressed the attack, and after a lengthy dog-fight at tree-top level, Sekhon's aircraft was hit, and he was killed. The remaining Pakistani aircraft returned to Pakistan without pressing the attack.....His skill was later praised in an article by Salim Baig Mirza, the pilot who shot him down

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## AUSTERLITZ

I agree wholeheartedly with choggy,the germans themselves weren't very superior to the british or americans.
Another reason for their massive tallies was the difference in doctrine.Whereas allied squadrons functioned as a team mostly concentrating on mass,german squadrons and schwarms usually revolved around the 'experten' or the aces with the others supporting them.This lead to large kills for certain german pilots,also german pilots flew until they were killed,allied pilots were usually promoted and left field duties to share their experiences.
On the other hand luftwaffe kill confirmations were far more stringent than the allies.


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## toppys

Muradk said:


> Check out *Rocks drift battle*, One of the greatest battles ever took place year 1879. We were in the same boat in 1971 in BD PAF vs IAF



The British defenders withstood the assault, no thanks to their two incompetent officers. Following the withdrawal of the Zulus, the British defenders searched the battle field and butchered 500 wounded Zulus found lying there. A telling contrast to the humanitarian and respectful treatment of the British dead by the Zulus at the Battle of Isandhlwana. Back in England Parliament, under pressure from Queen Victoria reported the skirmish as a major British victory, and awarded eleven Victoria Cross medals, most inappropriately, to the defenders based upon their backgrounds, rather than their actions at the skirmish


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## SEAL

> I am the real Shams, i now live in Oklahoma USA i changed my name to Shams a.chohaan ( from Mohammad Shamsul Haq ) 40 years and our records are still confusing. You are all invited to contact me either here or at schohaan@yahoo. Com to verify any misquotes in the blogs, which seem plenty.
> I was, I am and Inshallah will always remain the best fighter Pilot the PAF ever produced.
> Thanks
> shams (sj)



Is this really you or someone else? anyway 3 kills in a single day is good record.


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## Irfan Baloch

QADRI said:


> i don't know why there is no vote for M.M Alam...o man he destoryed 5 IAF crafts in just 30 seconds which is still an unbreakable record.



is that claim confirmed by independent sources? where did the shot down planes fall? do the Indians acknowledge that? I am not questioning this achievement but I only see some sketchy Pakistani claims thats all

help me here

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## shr_bwp

IndianArmy said:


> *Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon*, Under heavy fire, he was able to take off in his Gnat and engage the Sabres,In the ensuing air battle, Sekhon scored a direct hit on one Sabre,and set another ablaze,The four remaining Sabres pressed the attack, and after a lengthy dog-fight at tree-top level, Sekhon's aircraft was hit, and he was killed. The remaining Pakistani aircraft returned to Pakistan without pressing the attack.....His skill was later praised in an article by Salim Baig Mirza, the pilot who shot him down



Direct hit and setting ablaze. Two kills by the fellow before being shot down.

Too bad that AC Kaiser Tufail is just outrightly wrong here:

Aeronaut: A Hard Nut to Crack

"Contrary to IAF&#8217;s citation for Sekhon&#8217;s award, none of the Sabres was hit during the dogfight. " - too bad, such 'outrageous' lies by the good AC.

Of course, do not forget to quote him when he is _right _about MM Alam's kills here:

Aeronaut: Speed Shooting Classic

Whatever suits you, right?

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## shr_bwp

Irfan Baloch said:


> ...
> 
> help me here



Aeronaut: Speed Shooting Classic


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## Irfan Baloch

hasnain0099 said:


> Pardon me sir, but isn't that a bit rude. If I were a Pilot,I would have rather wished my successors to be more capable than me so that the tradition of excellence lives on. Somethings are more important than records, I wish every coming pilot to be better than the best pilot like you.



dont feed the troll.. just report him


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## Irfan Baloch

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> THANK U SIR FOR THE SERVICES U HAvE RENDERED FOR THE MOTHERLAND... WE SALUTE U AND OTHER HEROES LIKE U.......But saying tht wat MM Alam did was a piece of cake isnt exactly right either..... anyways welcome and enjoy ur stay.... we have PAF heroes frm 65 and 71 on PDF ...Like Sir Murad K and others....
> God bless u and our other heroes...Ameen.



.. face plamn of the century

ahh you guilble little creature.. 
wake up he is a troll

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Srfraz rafiqui................................................................................................................................................................................................................. i have no words other than simply the best......

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## Areesh

shr_bwp said:


> Direct hit and setting ablaze. Two kills by the fellow before being shot down.
> 
> Too bad that AC Kaiser Tufail is just outrightly wrong here:
> 
> Aeronaut: A Hard Nut to Crack
> 
> "Contrary to IAFs citation for Sekhons award, none of the Sabres was hit during the dogfight. " - too bad, such 'outrageous' lies by the good AC.
> 
> Of course, do not forget to quote him when he is _right _about MM Alam's kills here:
> 
> Aeronaut: Speed Shooting Classic
> 
> Whatever suits you, right?



I was also about to say the same thing. I also read that all six AC's came home safely.

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## MastanKhan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> Srfraz rafiqui................................................................................................................................................................................................................. i have no words other than simply the best......



Sir,

Rafiqui was shot down by and average indian pilot---.

The indian pilot made the move to get behind Rafiqui and shot him----if Rafiqui was that great---it would not have happened.

It is stated that Rafiqui's guns got jammed---so instead of saving his plane and a million dollar pilot----he chose to hang around faking tail chases---.

He broke the cardinal rule----stayed in the battlefield when his aircraft was not battle worthy---.

You can't build a battleship in the middle of a short war---you cannot produce a superstar pilot in two weeks. 

I want to know what did he get out of it by hanging around----after his guns jammed---he was pretty much neutralized within 30 seconds maybe 45. So---what did he do?

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## Luftwaffe

*Rehan Niaz Falcon..Srfraz rafiqu i have no words other than simply the best. *

Rules of Engagement were not followed. Under no circumstances would you cease the rules of engagement as a professional pilot but will follow and apply the tactics taught during exercises/operations/peace time missions and so on..But tactics apply when you are Engaged.


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## niaz

SHAMS SJ said:


> READ THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE HISTORY AND TRY TO GET AERIAL PHOTO REALS FROM THE LIABRARY OF CONGRESS, THEY HAVE A TRUNK FULL OF CINE AS WELL AS THE ONES SHOT BY MEDIA, I KNOW BECAUSE I FLEW THE TRUNK FULL OF FILMS TO AQYAB, BURMA IN A AGRO AVIATION AIRCRAFT AFTER THE WAR IN 1971.
> SHAMS



Hon sir,

You fought for my motherland. In my book you have full right to claim being the best. Whether you were indeed the best is immaterial. 

You are a brave son of the soil with an SJ; you will be always be among the heros that I respect and admire to my dying day. 

I salute you.

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## fatman17

*Originally Posted by SHAMS SJ 
READ THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE HISTORY AND TRY TO GET AERIAL PHOTO REALS FROM THE LIABRARY OF CONGRESS, THEY HAVE A TRUNK FULL OF CINE AS WELL AS THE ONES SHOT BY MEDIA, I KNOW BECAUSE I FLEW THE TRUNK FULL OF FILMS TO AQYAB, BURMA IN A AGRO AVIATION AIRCRAFT AFTER THE WAR IN 1971.
SHAMS*

Sir, why isnt this cine film available with the PAF or the GoP - wasnt this the property of GoP?

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## shehbazi2001

SHAMS SJ said:


> It is very heart breaking, when I see you the PAF jocks discuss the Ace Pilots of the world and forget about your own. Our PAF history is so distorted that some of you dont even know the names of Pilots, whoes deeds made PAF famous all over the world. I for one shot 4 (four) enemy aircraft in one combat sortie over Dacca with hundreds of ground witnesses, yet I see some of you looking for the right Shamsul Haq. That is me, now known as SHAMS CHOHAAN. Add the SJ. I now live in USA schohaan@yahoo.com. For once correct the History. And be proud of some of us that fought the forgotten war. On the other hand any pilot could have done what the now famous M.M.Alam did ( no big deal, peace of cake).




if you are the real shams..........then we would like to hear from you the details of air operations done during Operation Searchlight in March-April-May 1971.............

Tell us HOW much of the runway was destroyed on 7th December because C-130s of RAF landed on Dacca after the destruction of runway...........C-130s had come to evacuate US and British citizens.......

Why PAF did not try any Dacca highway for take-off and landing purposes? 

Why were the F-86 Sabres not blown up with bombs etc instead of leaving them as victory souvenirs to the Indian Forces?

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Rafiqui was shot down by and average indian pilot---.
> 
> The indian pilot made the move to get behind Rafiqui and shot him----if Rafiqui was that great---it would not have happened.
> 
> It is stated that Rafiqui's guns got jammed---so instead of saving his plane and a million dollar pilot----he chose to hang around faking tail chases---.
> 
> He broke the cardinal rule----stayed in the battlefield when his aircraft was not battle worthy---.
> 
> You can't build a battleship in the middle of a short war---you cannot produce a superstar pilot in two weeks.
> 
> I want to know what did he get out of it by hanging around----after his guns jammed---he was pretty much neutralized within 30 seconds maybe 45. So---what did he do?



dear u need to listen story of C .Chaudhry once. He remained there in order to protect other two ... cos flt.younis.s aircrafts drop tanks were jammed too ... and he remained there for long time and during that that time two one indian air craft was shot down and chaudher survived ... he was brave and tactical.. in that encounter paf shot 3 at the cost of 2. and check the no of aircrafts that challended them.......

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## M8R

SHAMS SJ is as real as it gets.I have spoken to him with via email several times. SHAMS SJ = Flight Lieutenant Shams Chauhan Have 3 confirmed kills over Dhaka and one unconfirmed kill!

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## shr_bwp

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;1172074 said:


> SHAMS SJ is as real as it gets.I have spoken to him with via email several times. SHAMS SJ = Flight Lieutenant Shams Chauhan Have 3 confirmed kills over Dhaka and one unconfirmed kill!



3 Confirmed? That is great. How did the confirmations occur?


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## SHAMS SJ

MR SAIFUL AZAM GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BEFORE MAKING COMMENTS. I SHOT MORE THAN 3 IN 1971 IN DACCA, MOST OF THE YOUNG PILOTS ARE CONFUSED AND KEEP CHATTING ABOUT ME IN DIFFERENT FORUMS, MAYBE THE WHOLE LOT OF THE AIR FORCE CADRE SHOULD EITHER VISIT THE PAF MUSEUM IN KARACHI. AND OR READ THE ACTUAL FACTS ABOUT THE 1971 WAR.
REGARDS 
SHAMS A..CHOHAAN
MOHAMMAD SHAMSUL HAQ SJ

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## SHAMS SJ

WHO EVER ASKED FOR CONFORMATION, CALL ME OR ASK SOME RETIRED OFFICERS WHO MAY OPEN YOUR EYES OR BETTER YET GO VISIT THEMUSEUM IN KARACHI AND LEARN THE HISTORY.
MOHAMMAD SHAMSUL HAQ SJ
SHAMS CHOHAAN ( MY CURRENT NAME) AND YES I SHOT 4 A/C.

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## Manticore

ANTIBODY said:


> some ww1 aces
> View attachment 3658
> 
> 
> the red barron was just 25! wow
> 
> View attachment 3659
> 
> 
> View attachment 3660
> 
> age20?
> View attachment 3661
> 
> View attachment 3667
> 
> age22


 






















[images had disappeared over the 2 years since i posted them and there was no edit option]


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## madooxno9

off topic but this one is nice


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## Beast

Hans Joachim Marseille

Hans Joachim Marseille

Aggressive and flamboyant.. This is the characteristic of a true great fighter pilot.

-


> Marseille's self-training program
> Vision - Marseille decided to adapt his eyes to the powerful desert sun and the dry desert atmosphere and to adapt his body to the desert's conditions. He stopped wearing sun glasses, deliberately exposed his eyes to the desert sun, and shifted from alcohol to milk. He also noticed that in the intensely lit dry desert atmosphere, aircraft can be detected from greater distances than over Europe and deduced that hiding and surprise are less practical over the desert than in the cloudy sky over Europe.
> 
> -G-Force - Marseille worked endlessly to strengthen his abdominal and leg muscles in order to enhance his ability to sustain higher G-Force and for longer durations during dogfights better than the average fighter pilot. G-Force is the enormous centrifugal force experienced when a fighter aircraft makes sharp turns during dogfight. The modern G-suit that helps pilots sustain it was not yet invented in World War 2.
> 
> -Aerobatics - Marseille used every opportunity to perform breathtaking aerobatics. In addition to free entertainment to his friends on the ground, this also gave him an outstanding control and confidence in extremely maneuvering his Messerschmitt 109 aircraft.
> 
> -Marksmanship - Marseille spent his unused ammunition practicing firing at ground objects and trained a lot not just in plain strafing but also in high deflection shooting while in a sharp turn, which is much harder.
> 
> -Intelligence - he began to read every possible intelligence information he could find in order to maximize his knowledge and understanding of the enemy.
> 
> -Tactics - That's where Marseille marked himself as a great innovator of air warfare, and he kept improving. He claimed that in the perfect visual conditions over the desert, large formations are in a visual disadvantage against highly maneuvering single aircraft. He preferred to fight alone, with a single wingman providing warnings from a safe distance. He claimed that when fighting alone in a short range dogfight, he could quickly fire at anything he saw, while the attacked formation's pilots were confused, hesitated, and switched to a defensive position that further increased the lone attacker's chances. He also claimed that fighting alone eliminates the high risk of firing at or colliding with a wingman in such extreme maneuvering. Marseille said that in such conditions, there's a lower chance and too little time for the usual chase attack method, and preferred to use high angle deflection firing from short range while making a sharp turn. In doing so, he never used his gun sight and instead fired a very short burst at the passing target in the split second when its leading edge, its propeller, disappeared from his eyes behind his aircraft's nose. He calculated that when firing a short burst at this position, his gun rounds will hit the target's engine and cockpit, and he trained in this unorthodox aiming method on his friends (without firing) many times and perfected his ability to use it. He deduced that over the desert, a fighter pilot can become "invisible" only by extreme maneuvers at close range, and that the intensity of the maneuvering was more important than the speed of flying.


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## nitetrogen70

osama bin laden 
im going to get bashed now

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## ejaz007

nitetrogen70 said:


> osama bin laden
> im going to get bashed now


 
And which fighter he flew. Perhaps Donkey-16.

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## shr_bwp

Sir: Kindly stop using capital letters - it is considered shouting. That is, unless you were shouting, in which case why?. When you claim that you shot down 4 or 3 Indian Air Force fighters in combat over Dacca in December 1971, I think that asking how they happened and what was the confirmation process is a pertinent question. 

So please either answer the question or stop shouting. Just because someone CLAIMS a kill does not make it so. That you saw combat is of no doubt, that you shot down 3 or 4 is of considerable speculation because the record does NOT support it (PAF Official records notwithstanding), unfortunately, hence the question of confirmation.

Air Commodore (r) Kaiser Tufail has done remarkable work on analyzing the combat record and has done marvelous research and reporting both in Pakistan and in India. For example, he visited India and met up with Indian Air Force combat veterans, including the one who shot down Rafiqui and wrote a wonderful account of that meeting - do a web search on him and you will see what I mean.

Air Commodore (r) Sajad Haider has a written a marvelous best seller (it was in its 3rd publication last I recall) and his account of the Dacca pilots is quite different from yours. He has devoted several pages of his book to YOU and YOUR fellow pilots who were sent to Sargodha after repatriation from Burma. Do you remember that?

All of the above are available for you to discuss your record.

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## GameSparta500




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## Chogy

Col. Robin Olds was fairly worshipped by his men. He was a rare individual that combined superb airmanship with outstanding leadership. His men would have flown through hell with him. RIP sir.

To answer the question, the World's Greatest Fighter Pilot was.....


Me. 

Every fighter guy thinks he was or is the best. It comes with the territory. You've got to be superbly confident.

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## fd24

Eric Hartmann - best ever...


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## muslim282

MAVERICKs got be some where there or abouts.


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## RazPaK

My vote goes to RazPak.


Over 700 kills in Ace Combat 5.

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## Windjammer

Chogy said:


> Col. Robin Olds was fairly worshipped by his men. He was a rare individual that combined superb airmanship with outstanding leadership. His men would have flown through hell with him. RIP sir.
> *
> To answer the question, the World's Greatest Fighter Pilot was.....
> 
> 
> Me. *
> 
> Every fighter guy thinks he was or is the best. It comes with the territory. You've got to be superbly confident.



With that gun, i am not surprised sir !!........just out of interest, what's your take on Pakistan's M M Alam. and a Saiful Azam. He achieved a lot more than the top gun slot.

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## Dazzler

Mohammad Mehmood Alam. A.k.a M.M. Alam for me all the way... The real hotshot!

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> With that gun, i am not surprised sir !!........just out of interest, what's your take on Pakistan's M M Alam. and a Saiful Azam. He achieved a lot more than the top gun slot.





'....In the year of our *Lord*, nineteen hundred and sixty-one...'



lolz. America has come a long way since then, i suppose.


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## saiyan0321

mm alam a real gem talent and an ace pilot


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## Zabaniyah

Saiful Azam!

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## YouGotRouged

penumbra said:


> '....In the year of our *Lord*, nineteen hundred and sixty-one...'
> 
> 
> 
> lolz. *America has come a long way since then, i suppose*.



Hardly. You only need to watch a few youtube videos of the evangelical pastors to realize that the US has gone back not forward.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

M.M Alam off-course....


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## Abingdonboy

Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## amidamaru

the red baron


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## Chogy

I'm not familiar with pilot Azam. Not to take anything away from him, but the "top gun" certificate means he had the best strafing scores in class 61-G at Luke. There are 12 classes per year, and each class would have a strafe top gun guy. It is an award handed out to each graduating class.

Squadrons will typically rank their pilots in some form each month, so in a given month, Joe Bagadonuts would be top gun, then another guy would take it next month. It's simply a way to keep pilots fired up and competitive. 

As I mentioned before, I don't think there is a way to quantify this. Pilot Azam might be the Red Baron reincarnated... hard to say! I'm sure he was an extremely talented guy.

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## Safriz

It was me.....
I was the best pilot in the world........then i woke up....

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## epinephrine

i think air marshal nur khan was the best pilot and commander.we may never find a person of his caliber and vision ever again in our armed forces


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## Windjammer

Chogy said:


> I'm not familiar with pilot Azam. Not to take anything away from him, but the "top gun" certificate means he had the best strafing scores in class 61-G at Luke. There are 12 classes per year, and each class would have a strafe top gun guy. It is an award handed out to each graduating class.
> 
> Squadrons will typically rank their pilots in some form each month, so in a given month, Joe Bagadonuts would be top gun, then another guy would take it next month. It's simply a way to keep pilots fired up and competitive.
> 
> As I mentioned before, I don't think there is a way to quantify this. Pilot Azam might be the Red Baron reincarnated... hard to say! I'm sure he was an extremely talented guy.



Just for record, while on deputation, he was credited with shooting down three Israeli aircraft during the six day war including a Mirage-3, while flying in a Hunter.


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## 500

Windjammer said:


> Just for record, while on deputation, he was credited with shooting down three Israeli aircraft during the six day war including a Mirage-3, while flying in a Hunter.


That Mirage was on bombing mission in Iraq, overloaded with fuel and bombs.


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## scholseys

Tom Cruise

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## SQ8

500 said:


> That Mirage was on bombing mission in Iraq, overloaded with fuel and bombs.



He could jettison them and get out..
thats like saying a bigger and faster guy got beaten up because he decided to hold onto his duffel bag during the fight.
And if he did not jettison those in the engagement then he was a fool who was asking to be killed.

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## Truong Sa

I nominate for Pham Tuan, a Vietnamese. 
He was the first Fighter Pilot shot down B52 when he flew interceptor missions in a MiG-21 on December 27, 1972 in the sky of Yen Bai province, Vietnam...
He became the first Asian in space when he flew aboard the Soyuz 37 mission as an Intercosmos Research Cosmonaut...
He was awarded the title Hero of Vietnam and Hero of the Soviet Union...

He was luckier than the other pilots because they did not have any B52 to shot?

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## Windjammer

500 said:


> That Mirage was on bombing mission in Iraq, overloaded with fuel and bombs.



Actually the Mirages were escorting a formation of four Vautours bombers, one of which flown by Captain Golan also fell victim to the PAF pilot. After seeing his leader, Capt. Gideon Dror getting shot down, the pilot of the second Mirage disengaged and left the battle arena.


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## SQ8

Truong Sa said:


> I nominate for Pham Tuan, a Vietnamese.
> He was the first Fighter Pilot shot down B52 when he flew interceptor missions in a MiG-21 on December 27, 1972 in the sky of Yen Bai province, Vietnam...
> He became the first Asian in space when he flew aboard the Soyuz 37 mission as an Intercosmos Research Cosmonaut...
> He was awarded the title Hero of Vietnam and Hero of the Soviet Union...
> 
> He was luckier than the other pilots because they did not have any B52 to shot?



Shooting a lumbering bomber is not much of an achievement.
There are other Vietnamese aces who played havoc with F-105 flights.


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## fd24

WJ or Santro or anyone - any info on M.Mahmood Alam


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## SQ8

superkaif said:


> WJ or Santro or anyone - any info on M.Mahmood Alam



Any info is available all over.. just have to glean out what is fact and what is fiction.


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## fd24

Santro said:


> Any info is available all over.. just have to glean out what is fact and what is fiction.



Spoke to a family friend last night and all he kept saying was that this guy was a legend - but as you say its difficult to decipher fact from fiction


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## Truong Sa

Santro said:


> Shooting a lumbering bomber is not much of an achievement.
> There are other Vietnamese aces who played havoc with F-105 flights.



No friend, the B52 has a lot of F4 fighters fly to protect
It is very difficult to fly access B52
It is similar to an aircraft carrier is protected dense ...


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## Windjammer

Here is an article from John Fricker's, Battle for Pakistan.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/39642-thirty-seconds-sargodha.html

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## 500

Santro said:


> He could jettison them and get out..
> thats like saying a bigger and faster guy got beaten up because he decided to hold onto his duffel bag during the fight.
> And if he did not jettison those in the engagement then he was a fool who was asking to be killed.


Contrary to movies most of the dogfights are very short, hit and run, you simply dont have a time for jetissoning. And also they were loaded with fuel which cant be jetissoned. What basically happaned is that low flying loaded with fuel and bombs Israeli jets were ambushed from above by Iraqi fighters. But even in this situation Israelis managed to shoot Iragi fighter and most of the jets escaped.


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## SQ8

Truong Sa said:


> No friend, the B52 has a lot of F4 fighters fly to protect
> It is very difficult to fly access B52
> It is similar to an aircraft carrier is protected dense ...



Nope.. three Viet pilots shot down B-52's.. one did a kamikaze mission.
These were night engagements.


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## SQ8

500 said:


> Contrary to movies most of the dogfights are very short, hit and run, you simply dont have a time for jetissoning. And also they were loaded with fuel which cant be jetissoned. What basically happaned is that low flying loaded with fuel and bombs Israeli jets were ambushed from above by Iraqi fighters. But even in this situation Israelis managed to shoot Iragi fighter and most of the jets escaped.



You are dilly dallying here, especially since records show that the Mirages were on escort missions for vatours.
The Mirage could still outrun the hunter.. 



> The Israeli formation consisted of six aircraft. A section of four Vautours of No 110 Squadron was led by the Deputy Squadron Commander Capt Shlomo Keren in a two-seater, with Capt Alexander Meltzer as his navigator. The other members were Col Yehezkel Someh (Base Commander of Ramat David Air Base), Capt Yitzhak Golan and Lt Avshalom Friedman in single seaters[12]. Two Mirages of No 117 Squadron doubled up as armed escorts, each carrying two bombs; Maj Ezra Dotan led the pair, with Capt Gideon Dror as wingman.




This was an accomplished senior formation.
Yet they were bounded on by slower hunters and brought down



> As Saif manoeuvred to get behind the Vautours, Samir called out, &#8220;Two Mirages behind you.&#8221; Looking back, Saif saw the pair about 4,000 feet behind, turning for them. In an instant, Saif decided to split his formation, with himself and Ihsan (No 2) going for the Mirages while Samir and Ghalib (Nos 3 & 4) went for the Vautours. Turning hard to the right, Saif cramped the Mirages for manoeuvring space, forcing them to pull up for a &#8216;yo yo.&#8217; Reversing his turn, Saif noticed one of the Mirages still turning right, apparently having lost sight of the Hunters. Saif managed to turn inside the Mirage and started to catch up fast. At the extreme limits of range, the Mirage could not light up its fuel-guzzling afterburner, or else it could have easily out-run the subsonic Hunter.



So the mirages bounced the hunters and still did not jettison their bombs or fuel? Did they have a death wish?
If they did.. it was granted. I would be appalled to know that senior Israeli pilots were so inept as not to jettison bombs or fuel tanks when knowing the enemy is around and in this case sitting at the enemy's rear quarter..even if they could not light up their AB's they would have had the advantage of a faster and better climbing aircraft.



> The plethora of accomplishments by the Israeli Air Force did not prevent a scathing indictment of the conduct of operations over H-3, in the post-war debrief. Col Eleizer Cohen, in his book Israel&#8217;s Best Defense alludes to it by stating, &#8220;The damage to H-3 was peripheral, and the losses &#8211; a killed pilot and navigator, two pilots captured and three aircraft downed &#8211; were heavier than at any other base[15].&#8221; Maj Gen Mordechai Hod, the Commander of the Israeli Air Force is said to have remarked that the critique of H-3 fiasco made him feel almost as if he had lost the war. Whatever factors may have been discussed during the debrief, there is little doubt that the Israelis were aware of the H-3 rout being the handiwork of a determined team, under the able leadership of a first class PAF pilot. That Mossad was ignorant of this fact would be under-rating the capabilities of a notoriously efficient intelligence outfit

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## 500

Santro said:


> You are dilly dallying here, especially since records show that the Mirages were on escort missions for vatours.
> The Mirage could still outrun the hunter..


If light plane attacks you from above there is very little what u can do. Plus Mirages could not run away and leave Vatours for slaughter.





> So the mirages bounced the hunters and still did not jettison their bombs or fuel? Did they have a death wish?
> If they did.. it was granted. I would be appalled to know that senior Israeli pilots were so inept as not to jettison bombs or fuel tanks when knowing the enemy is around and in this case sitting at the enemy's rear quarter..even if they could not light up their AB's they would have had the advantage of a faster and better climbing aircraft.


You cant jetisson fuel which u need to return to base.

I really dont understand why shooting down *one* Mirage on deep bombing mission is considered as greatest achievement of all times 

Vietnamese shot down dosens of superrior US jets with their outdated MiG-17. So wut?


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## Windjammer

500 said:


> If light plane attacks you from above there is very little what u can do. Plus Mirages could not run away and leave Vatours for slaughter.


 The citation clearly indicates that while the Hunters were going for the Vatours, the Mirages were positioning themselves for an attack on the Hunters, hence no question of being pounced from above. And the second Mirage did leave the scenario for Vatours to fend for them self.





> You cant jetisson fuel which u need to return to base.
> 
> I really dont understand why shooting down *one* Mirage on deep bombing mission is considered as greatest achievement of all times
> 
> Vietnamese shot down dosens of superrior US jets with their outdated MiG-17. So wut?



The bigger picture is the shooting down of three aircraft, two of much superior performance, within a six day battle period.

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## 500

Windjammer said:


> The citation clearly indicates that while the Hunters were going for the Vatours, the Mirages were positioning themselves for an attack on the Hunters, hence no question of being pounced from above. And the second Mirage did leave the scenario for Vatours to fend for them self.


Both Vatours and Mirages were loaded wit bombs and fuel, but once they were ambushed, Mirages tried to protect Vatours. 



> The bigger picture is the shooting down of three aircraft, two of much superior performance, within a six day battle period.


The bigger picture is that Israeli jets on deep srtiking mission loaded with fuel and bombs were ambushed by Iraqi fighters. Nevertheless Israelis managed to shot down two Iraqi fighters losing *one* fighter and two bombers.

3-2 is not a great achievement for ambushing force.

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## Windjammer

^^^^^^^^^

By repeating the same mantra, you are digressing from the actual topic !!......"Who was the best fighter pilot". ??


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## SQ8

500 said:


> If light plane attacks you from above there is very little what u can do. Plus Mirages could not run away and leave Vatours for slaughter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cant jetisson fuel which u need to return to base.
> 
> I really dont understand why shooting down *one* Mirage on deep bombing mission is considered as greatest achievement of all times
> 
> *Vietnamese shot down dosens of superrior US jets with their outdated MiG-17. So wut?*



Who said that? 

*And try telling that Viet guy here that his aces arent worth crap.. *

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------




500 said:


> Both Vatours and Mirages were loaded wit bombs and fuel, but once they were ambushed, Mirages tried to protect Vatours.
> 
> 
> The bigger picture is that Israeli jets on deep srtiking mission loaded with fuel and bombs were ambushed by Iraqi fighters. Nevertheless Israelis managed to shot down two Iraqi fighters losing *one* fighter and two bombers.
> 
> *3-2 is not a great achievement for ambushing force*.



A win by a mile or a millimeter is still a win.

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## 500

Santro said:


> Who said that?



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/12694-who-best-fighter-pilot-ever.html#post173959



> A win by a mile or a millimeter is still a win.


Win, but given the the circumstances it could easily end 8:0 in favor of Iraqis, instead of 3:2.


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## Desert Fox

*Here is the Serial Number and Name of both the Pakistani Pilot and his Iraqi Hunter and the Israeli Pilot and his MirageIIICJ, below proves my point that it is confirmed PAF pilots shot down IDF/AF without losing one of their own (PAF)*

*Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam*
*Aircraft type:* *Iraqi Hawker Hunter*
*Aircraft Serial Number:* *S. No. 702*

*Israeli Pilot:* *Gideon Dror*
*Aircraft type:* *IDF/AF Mirage IIICJ*
*Aircraft Serial Number* *Serial No. 6660*






IDF / Air Force Aircraft Losses and Ejections by Aircraft Type-www.ejection-history.org.uk

*Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam*
*Aircraft type:* *Iraqi Hawker Hunter*
*Aircraft Serial Number:* *S. No. 702*

*Israeli Pilot:* *Itschak Glantz-Golan*
*Aircraft type:* *IDF/AF Vautour A*
*Unit/Serial No.* *no. 14*






Chronological Listing of Israel
*Pakistani Pilot:* *Flt Lt Sattar Alvi*
*Aircraft type:* *Syrian Air Force MiG-21F*
*Unit/Serial No.* *Serial No. 1863*

*Israeli Pilot:* *Captain M Lutz*
*Aircraft type:* *IDF/AF Mirage-IIICJ*
*Unit/Serial No.* *No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor*




IDF / Air Force Aircraft Losses and Ejections by Aircraft Type-www.ejection-history.org.uk


*Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam*
*Aircraft type:* *Jordanian (RJAF) Hawker Hunter*
*Aircraft Serial Number:* *No. 1 Sqn*

*Israeli Pilot:* *Capt Hanania Bula*
*Aircraft type:* *IDF/AF Mystère-IVA*
*Unit/Serial No.* *116 Sqn*





Chronological Listing of Israel




Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page




Chronological Listing of Israel





*Saiful Azam's Iraqi Hawker Hunter*










Read the full story about PAF pilots encounters with IDF/AF during the 1967 war


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## Desert Fox

*In my opinion the best Fighter Pilots of all time were the German Luftwaffe Aces of WW2, no one even comes close to the amount of aerial victories they scored, some Luftwaffe pilots even shot down up to 300+ allied aircraft:*


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## Desert Fox

*And of course with 80 scored aerial victories during the First World War, The Number One Ace of his time; *

*Manfred von Richthofen; The famous Red Baron of the skies*

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## 500

> Israeli Pilot: Captain M Lutz
> Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mirage-IIICJ
> Unit/Serial No. No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor


IAF didn not lose any plane on 26 april 1974 and captain Lutz never existed.


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## Desert Fox

500 said:


> IAF didn not lose any plane on 26 april 1974 and captain Lutz never existed.



I'm sure you can *prove* that

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## Truong Sa

Santro said:


> Nope.. three Viet pilots shot down B-52's.. one did a kamikaze mission.
> These were night engagements.



I can't confirm exactly because I was not there. I only rely on the recognition of Vietnam People's Army for him. Of course he was supported by his teammates.
He also recognized several shot down some fighters and captured a pilot with fighter...


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## razgriz19

Iraqi Hunter aircraft flown by Saif-ul-azam during Israel-Arab conflict.
you can see the two Israeli kills, one mirage and mystere i think...






*AND MM ALAM STANDING WITH HIS SABRE WHICH HAD 9 CONFIRM KILLS!!!!!!!!*

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## killerx

PAF all pilots are the best ever

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## Warrior.Lord.Pakistan

Could anyone explain how many confirm kills did PAF Sabres secure against IAF Hunters? What was their mutual ratio of downing each other (Sabre vs Hunter)? Moreover, could someone shed light on the myth ascribed to "Gnat" as "Sabre Slayer"?

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## Mr.Wick

Apart from Aerial warfare(Dog Fights), my personal favorite is Hans-Ulrich -Rudel,the Stuka ace.







Record 2530 sorties, has never been shot by any other pilot(much like Hartman himself).

Hans-Ulrich Rudel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## 500

/\/\/\/\/\/\

No doubt Rudel was the greatest combat pilot in history. But he was not a fighter pilot.

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## fatman17

Warrior.Lord.Pakistan said:


> Could anyone explain how many confirm kills did PAF Sabres secure against IAF Hunters? What was their mutual ratio of downing each other (Sabre vs Hunter)? Moreover, could someone shed light on the myth ascribed to "Gnat" as "Sabre Slayer"?



do some browsing, u will find the answers!

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## SBD-3

Swet said:


> Apart from Aerial warfare(Dog Fights), my personal favorite is Hans-Ulrich -Rudel,the Stuka ace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Record 2530 sorties, has never been shot by any other pilot(much like Hartman himself).
> 
> Hans-Ulrich Rudel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Stuka was a dive bomber dude......

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## forcetrip

500 said:


> /\/\/\/\/\/\
> 
> No doubt Rudel was the greatest combat pilot in history. But he was not a fighter pilot.



Fighter pilot? He was more of a commando than an airman .. You dont breed men like that anymore.


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## forcetrip

Doubled.......


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## The SC

Erich Alfred Hartmann - German WWII ace

This image shows the greatest ace pilot of all time, a legend who served in the Luftwaffe on the Eastern front in WWII. Nicknamed "The Black Devil", Erich Hartmann claimed 352 combat kills  the highest number ever recorded. He was forced to crash-land damaged aircraft 14 times, but he was never injured and was never shot down. Truly a giant among pilots of fighter planes.






It is truly amazing to think today of the trauma these pilots must have lived with every day. These were among the bravest men who ever lived, and they deserve our undying respect.
Read more at 10 Greatest Flying Aces in History


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## Farah Sohail

A great thread.. Very very informative... Salute to all great PAF heroes  Felt very proud, reading in this thread abt them

As some one else also asked in this thread erlier, but was not answered yet... Is M.M Alam's record of 5 kills in 30 secs independently acknowledged also, or only through Pakistani sources?

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## origin eagle

there are many pilots but especially the one i admire is
Air Commodore Sattar Alvi who fought during 1971 &1973 recieving two Sitar e Jurat
and in 1973 recieved highest decorations Wissam ul Shujaat &Wissam Faaris by the Syrian President Assad for Gallantry


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## 500

Some statistics:

*WW1*
Manfred von Richthofen - 80 - top WW1 ace (Germany)
Rene Fonck - 75 - top allied ace (France)
Edward Mannock - 73 top British ace (UK)
Adolphe Pegoud - 6 - first man to achieve ace status in history (France)

*WW2:*
Erich Hartmann - 352 - top ace of all time (Germany)
Ilmari Juutilainen - 94 - top non German ace (Finland)
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa - 87 - top Japanese ace (Japan)
Ivan Kozhedub - 64 - top allied ace (USSR)
Richard I. Bong - 40 - top US ace (USA)
Johnnie Johnson - 34 - top UK ace, top allied ace on Western front (UK)
Kurt Welter - 63 (25 on Me262) - top jet ace all time (Germany)
Lydia Litvyak - 12 - top female ace all time (USSR)

*Post WW2:*
Yevgeny Pepelyaev - 23 - top post WW2 ace, top jet vs jet all time (USSR)
Joseph C. McConnell - 16 - top US jet ace (USSR)
Giora Epstein - 17 - top Israeli ace and top supersonic ace all time (Israel)
Nguyen Van Coc - 9 (including 2 UAVs) - top Vietnam war ace (Vietnam)
M M Alam - 9 - top Indo-Pakistan wars ace (Pakistan)
Jalal Zandi - 9 - top Iran-Iraq war ace (Iran)

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## Eda Khan

Every Fighter Pilot belonged to Pakistan Air Force is Best Ever....

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## stuka-j87

> Stuka was a dive bomber dude......


And also a member here !



> No doubt Rudel was the greatest combat pilot in history. But he was not a fighter pilot.



did you see his records ? he almost destroyed an army !

"Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship, 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down."

He was a real terminator!

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## Desert Fox

stuka-j87 said:


> And also a member here !
> 
> 
> 
> did you see his records ? he almost destroyed an army !
> 
> "Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship, 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down."
> 
> He was a real terminator!



Not to mention there were German Luftwaffe pilots that scored up to 300 and more kills. No one ever beat that record since.

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## Azatavrear

This guy is my hero

*Nelson Stepanyan* born Shushi, Armenia







WWII Commander of 47th fighter division Soviet Union. 



> As of November 1942, Stepanyan was reported to having destroyed 78 German trucks, 67 tanks, 63 anti-aircraft guns, nineteen mortars, 36 railroad cars, twenty merchantmen and warships (including a destroyer), thirteen fuel tankers, twelve armored cars, seven long-range guns, five ammunition dumps, five bridges.
> 
> Stepanyan was also shot down over enemy lines, although friendly guerrilla fighters aided him to reach back Soviet lines. Stepanyan was awarded twice with the title of Hero of the Soviet Union (the second one was given posthumously).
> 
> On his final sortie in Liep&#257;ja, Latvia on December 14, 1944, his plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire and though wounded, he rammed his own plane into a German warship.

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## Backbencher

500 said:


> Some statistics:
> 
> *WW1*
> Manfred von Richthofen - 80 - top WW1 ace (Germany)
> Rene Fonck - 75 - top allied ace (France)
> Edward Mannock - 73 top British ace (UK)
> Adolphe Pegoud - 6 - first man to achieve ace status in history (France)
> 
> *WW2:*
> Erich Hartmann - 352 - top ace of all time (Germany)
> Ilmari Juutilainen - 94 - top non German ace (Finland)
> Hiroyoshi Nishizawa - 87 - top Japanese ace (Japan)
> Ivan Kozhedub - 64 - top allied ace (USSR)
> Richard I. Bong - 40 - top US ace (USA)
> Johnnie Johnson - 34 - top UK ace, top allied ace on Western front (UK)
> Kurt Welter - 63 (25 on Me262) - top jet ace all time (Germany)
> Lydia Litvyak - 12 - top female ace all time (USSR)
> 
> *Post WW2:*
> Yevgeny Pepelyaev - 23 - top post WW2 ace, top jet vs jet all time (USSR)
> Joseph C. McConnell - 16 - top US jet ace (USSR)
> Giora Epstein - 17 - top Israeli ace and top supersonic ace all time (Israel)
> Nguyen Van Coc - 9 (including 2 UAVs) - top Vietnam war ace (Vietnam)
> M M Alam - 9 - top Indo-Pakistan wars ace (Pakistan)
> Jalal Zandi - 9 - top Iran-Iraq war ace (Iran)


 
Now that would certainly help to judge .


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## Jazzbot

500 said:


> Some statistics:
> 
> *WW1*
> Manfred von Richthofen - 80 - top WW1 ace (Germany)
> Rene Fonck - 75 - top allied ace (France)
> Edward Mannock - 73 top British ace (UK)
> Adolphe Pegoud - 6 - first man to achieve ace status in history (France)
> 
> *WW2:*
> Erich Hartmann - 352 - top ace of all time (Germany)
> Ilmari Juutilainen - 94 - top non German ace (Finland)
> Hiroyoshi Nishizawa - 87 - top Japanese ace (Japan)
> Ivan Kozhedub - 64 - top allied ace (USSR)
> Richard I. Bong - 40 - top US ace (USA)
> Johnnie Johnson - 34 - top UK ace, top allied ace on Western front (UK)
> Kurt Welter - 63 (25 on Me262) - top jet ace all time (Germany)
> Lydia Litvyak - 12 - top female ace all time (USSR)
> 
> *Post WW2:*
> Yevgeny Pepelyaev - 23 - top post WW2 ace, top jet vs jet all time (USSR)
> Joseph C. McConnell - 16 - top US jet ace (USSR)
> Giora Epstein - 17 - top Israeli ace and top supersonic ace all time (Israel)
> Nguyen Van Coc - 9 (including 2 UAVs) - top Vietnam war ace (Vietnam)
> M M Alam - 9 - top Indo-Pakistan wars ace (Pakistan)
> Jalal Zandi - 9 - top Iran-Iraq war ace (Iran)




I found something similar in wiki:

Flying ace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## 500

This guy also worth mentioning:






*Hans-Joachim Marseille*

He is the highest scoring ace on West front with 158 kills. He could shoot down much more if he did not die in accident on 30 sept 1942.

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## Alexander Johnson

Yeah, that's very hard question to answer...

My first answer would be Manfred von Richtoffen, but I'm sure there were many other brave guys who fought for freedom, and gave their lives for it.


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## Babbar-Khalsa

Muradk said:


> I think my son has already shed light on Giora kills he has 10 confirmed kills 1 unconfirmed, I was in the vicinity when this happed  Where I cant say he shot pilots how had 10 to 15 hours of flight time and no combat experience no wounder he got so many, Plus I am sorry to say that training the Arabs was so difficult because they just didn't get it, In the morning you spent 2 hours training him and in the evening he forgets all. I have students all over the world according to my log book I have a total of 144 students, I have never raised my voice on any one but when training Arabs they brought me to a point where I would just think put my ejection pin in and eject which will throw him out of the plane
> 
> The best pilot I have seen my self
> Nur khan no one could match his skills.
> we have a lot of pilots in PAF who have broken world records of all kind .
> In IAF Ratore was the best.



MurdK sir....i think you were talking about Rathore of Indian Air Force.....if yes ..then thanks for mentioning the IAF here .

can you please shed some light on your encounters with IAF ....how did they perform and what do you think about them.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Hans-Joachim Marseille, By Major Robert Tate, USAF

This guy or richtofen.
Gunther wall[282 kills] third highest ace thought marseille was the best marksman in the luftwaffe.

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## assassin123

1.Erich Hartmann 352 kills (Germany) WW2
2.Rittmeister manfred albretch (germany) 80 kills WW1.


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## bigest

Erich Hartmann,s achievement is amazy in the aircraft area.


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## Azazel

IMO,Its The Red Baron,Manfred von Richthofen.80 air combat victories.One of the greatest aircombat tactician of his time.


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## dekho

The best fighters pilots also had the advantage technological superiority over their opponents. Without an equally good Fighter aircraft, even a skilled pilot cannot do much.


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## aghakhan

I think M.M.Alam is the best fighter ever in the history of war because he destroyed 5 air crafts of Indian less than 30 seconds than who can be better fighter from him.


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## Kompromat

aghakhan said:


> I think M.M.Alam is the best fighter ever in the history of war because he destroyed 5 air crafts of Indian less than 30 seconds than who can be better fighter from him.



That is just one parameter - MM Alam is surely one of the best but surely not the best either.



500 said:


> Some statistics:
> 
> *WW1*
> Manfred von Richthofen - 80 - top WW1 ace (Germany)
> Rene Fonck - 75 - top allied ace (France)
> Edward Mannock - 73 top British ace (UK)
> Adolphe Pegoud - 6 - first man to achieve ace status in history (France)
> 
> *WW2:*
> Erich Hartmann - 352 - top ace of all time (Germany)
> Ilmari Juutilainen - 94 - top non German ace (Finland)
> Hiroyoshi Nishizawa - 87 - top Japanese ace (Japan)
> Ivan Kozhedub - 64 - top allied ace (USSR)
> Richard I. Bong - 40 - top US ace (USA)
> Johnnie Johnson - 34 - top UK ace, top allied ace on Western front (UK)
> Kurt Welter - 63 (25 on Me262) - top jet ace all time (Germany)
> Lydia Litvyak - 12 - top female ace all time (USSR)
> 
> *Post WW2:*
> Yevgeny Pepelyaev - 23 - top post WW2 ace, top jet vs jet all time (USSR)
> Joseph C. McConnell - 16 - top US jet ace (USSR)
> Giora Epstein - 17 - top Israeli ace and top supersonic ace all time (Israel)
> Nguyen Van Coc - 9 (including 2 UAVs) - top Vietnam war ace (Vietnam)
> M M Alam - 9 - top Indo-Pakistan wars ace (Pakistan)
> Jalal Zandi - 9 - top Iran-Iraq war ace (Iran)



Joseph C. McConnell was an American.


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## niaz

Each battle is fought with different weapon systems and under different conditions. As I have said before, who is the best is very subjective and unless two great pilots fight each other using the same plane and the same armament, it is unfair to call one better than the rest. 

Only Tina Turner can sing:

Baby you are simply the best, better than all the rest. Better than anyone


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## IND151

In my opinion Captain Bill Shomo was best pilot ever; he downed seven japanese fighters and one bomber in single sortie

This record was not unbroken till gulf war


https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...iXRGpLqICcnPfpGRug1ckrA&bvm=bv.53537100,d.bmk


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## asad71

Don't forget Saiful Azam of BAF/PAF who has shot down both Israeli as well as Indian fighters in dog-fight. He is a product of PAF Public School,Sargodha which produces most air marshals, air chiefs and generals for Pakistan.

Saiful Azam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Jf Thunder

for me it is M M Alam, and till someone shoots down more planes that him in 30 seconds he will remain the best pilot ever in my view


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## Ganga

Contrary to popular opinion over here MM ALAM is not the first South Asian ace. The first South Asian ace was a Sardarji who shot down 5 Luftwaffe jets in the Battle of Britain. I am trying to find a link. I remember reading an article in the BBC a couple of years ago when he passed away. I personally do not believe the MM ALAM story. In my opinion it was concocted by the Pakistanis to support the ridiculous idea that one Pakistani is equal to many Indians.

The name of the pilot is Hardit Singh and he participated in the 1st ww. 9 Aerial victories

sikhchic.com | The Art and Culture of the Diaspora | Flying Ace & Pioneer

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## Ganga

I am not able to find the link to the ww2 pilot though.


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## Counter-Errorist

Ganga said:


> Contrary to popular opinion over here MM ALAM is not the first South Asian ace. The first South Asian ace was a Sardarji who shot down 5 Luftwaffe jets in the Battle of Britain. I am trying to find a link. I remember reading an article in the BBC a couple of years ago when he passed away. I personally do not believe the MM ALAM story. In my opinion it was concocted by the Pakistanis to support the ridiculous idea that one Pakistani is equal to many Indians.
> 
> The name of the pilot is Hardit Singh and he participated in the 1st ww. 9 Aerial victories
> 
> sikhchic.com | The Art and Culture of the Diaspora | Flying Ace & Pioneer



Sources are required if you wish to make such controversial statements


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## AUSTERLITZ

Best - Von richtofen or Hans joachim Marseille.


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## Rashid Mahmood

aghakhan said:


> I think M.M.Alam is the best fighter ever in the history of war because he destroyed 5 air crafts of Indian less than 30 seconds than who can be better fighter from him.




M.M. Alam downed five Indian aircraft in less than a minute — the first four within 30 seconds — establishing a world record. He also excelled in gunnery competition, a skill that without a doubt contributed greatly to his becoming the first and the only jet ace in one mission.

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## AUSTERLITZ

The action was swift. Squadron Leader Mohammed Mahmud Alam, commanding No.11 Sqn in the PAF, shot down five IAF Hunters over Sargodha in a matter of minutes - four of which he shot down in a mere thirty seconds! Or did he really? This suppositious feat by Squadron Leader M.M. Alam was - and still is - to stay as the jewel in the crown of Pakistan's fictitious glory over the skies in 1965. After all the PAF had to stick up with President Ayub Khan's claim of one Pakistani being equal to three Indians.

It all started on 07 September 1965, with the IAF's attack on Sargodha - the principle airbase of the PAF. Over 50% of the PAF combat strength was located at this base and thus it had to be taken out at all costs. The IAF planned and executed six strikes against Sargodha at different times of day, hoping to neutralise the PAF on the ground. The table below lists the strikes for September 07th, with the PAF and IAF's version of losses;

*Strike No. TOT (PST) TOT (PST) Squadron No. Aircraft Used Losses as per PAF Actual Losses*
1 0558 0538 1 7 Mysteres 2-4* / 6 1
2 0558 0538 8 8 Mysteres - -
3 0615 0547 27 5 Hunters 1 / 6 1
4 0633 0605 7 5 Hunters 5 / 6 2
5 1000 0945 1 4 Mysteres 0 / 4 -
6 1515 1540 1 2 Mysteres 1-2* / 4 1
*NOTE:* The initial versions of the PAF claimed four Mysteres downed in the first raid --> two to AA and two to the F-104 _Starfighter_. Later on this was revised to one each. The last raid was however upgraded from one combat kill to two kills. Either way the PAF claimed nothing less than ten kills on that day. Thus out of the six strikes and 26 sorties flown by the IAF as per the PAF records, the PAF claims the downing of ten IAF aircraft, reason enough to designate September 7th as Yaum-e-Fiza'ya (Day of the PAF), in the honour of the PAF giving the IAF a bloody nose.

Strikes No.1 and 2 occurred at 0538 hours and were appropriately logged by the IAF and the PAF. No.1 Squadron was assigned Sargodha (Main), while No.8 Squadron was assigned Bhagtanwala (East). However, since both attacked Sargodha simultaneously, but at two different complexes, the PAF thought Strike No.1 and No.2 to be a single strike. Thus there was confusion with the PAF's recounting of events at the very start.

Strike No.1, from No.1 Squadron and led by W/C O.P. Taneja, had three waves of four Mysteres each. However the third wave lost it's direction and two Mysteres from the second wave had engine trouble and had return to base. A reserve Mystere, piloted by S/L A.B. Devayya, was ordered to take off and join up with Strike No.1 bringing the total number of Mysteres to seven aircraft. In this strike, the IAF lost one Mystere while the PAF claims four Mysteres - two to anti-aircraft fire and two to a prowling F-104 _Starfighter_.

Strike No.2, from No.8 Squadron and led by S/L M.S. Jatar, consisted of two waves of four Mysteres each. This strike went smoothly and no Mysteres were lost to ground fire or enemy interceptors. The PAF however, claims the loss of no Hunters in Strike No.2 when in reality it was Mysteres which had participated! This confusion was caused because Strike No.3, which consisted of Hunters, was thought to be Strike No.2 by the PAF. Also eight Mysteres had attacked Sargodha in Strike No.2 and not six as shown in the PAF table.

Strike No.3, from No.27 Squadron, was at 0547 hours and was appropriately logged by the IAF. The PAF logs the same time, but as Strike No.2! This was the first Hunter formation of the day and it consisted of four aircraft, led by S/L D.S. Jog with S/L Onkar Nath Kacker, F/L T.K. Chaudhuri and F/L P.S. Parihar as his wingmen, and one Hunter escort, piloted by F/L D.N. Rathore. In this strike the IAF lost one Hunter, while the PAF claims no Hunters were lost.

Strike No.4, from No.7 Squadron, was at 0605 hours and was appropriately logged by the IAF. The PAF logs the same time, but as Strike No.3! This was the second and last Hunter formation of the day and had three strike aircraft, led by W/C A.T.R.H. Zachariah with S/L M.M. Sinha and S/L A.S. Lamba as his wingmen, and had two Hunter escorts, piloted by S/L S.B. Bhagwat and F/O J.S. Brar. In this strike, the IAF lost the two Hunter escorts, while the PAF claims five Hunters. According to the PAF, it was in this strike where S/L Alam shot down the five Hunters, killing four of the pilots. This will be disputed in detail later on, but now back to the last two strikes.

Strike No.5, from No.1 Squadron, was at 0945 hours and was appropriately logged by the IAF. The PAF logs the same time, but as Strike No.4! This was a four-ship Mystere formation and was led by S/L Sudharshan Handa with F/L D.S. Brar, F/L D.S. Khaki and F/L Philip Rajkumar as wingmen. This strike was the most successful of the day - it succeeded in both surprising the Pakistanis as well as in destroying worthwhile targets on the ground. The strike went smoothly and the IAF lost no Mysteres while the PAF too claims the loss of no IAF aircraft.

Strike No.6, again from No.1 Squadron, was at 1540 hrs and was appropriately logged by the IAF. The PAF logs the strike at the same time, but as Strike No.5! This was a two-ship Mystere formation and had S/L D.E. Satur with F/L U.B. Guha as his wingman. In this strike, the IAF lost one Mystere, while the PAF too claims the same loss. Later versions of the raid by the PAF claim a second Mystere to have been shot down by anti-aircraft fire. The PAF errs in again claiming that there were four Mysteres that were observed; Indian records mention only two Mysteres as having participated in this raid.

Thus ends the IAF strikes for September 7th. While the IAF states that six strikes occurred and five aircraft were lost, the PAF claims as many as ten aircraft to have been shot down. For the PAF this was reason enough to celebrate the day as PAF day. But the loss of five aircraft in six raids on a heavily defended airfield is hardly reason for celebration on the part of the PAF. The PAF did not deal a crippling blow to the IAF as the Israelis did to the Arab Air Forces in 1967. The damage was miniscule compared to the overall size of the IAF. Yet the PAF built up the image that it had completely mauled the IAF over its skies. The aircraft involved on both sides were pitifully small. But the total losses of IAF over Sargodha were magnified and distorted out of proportion to justify the claim that the PAF was saving Pakistan itself!

However before we move any further, we first have to hear S/L Alam's side of the story, which was published in Battle for Pakistan, a book written by John Fricker - an aviation journalist and an old & trustworthy friend of the PAF. He was appointed by the PAF to write their version of what happened in the skies in 1965 and he wrote what they had expected - a flattering account of the air war, in which the PAF won flaps down. Thus, here is S/L Alam's version, taken from Battle for Pakistan, of what happened on that fateful day*:*

_"As we were vectored back towards Sargodha, Akthar [his wingman] called, "Contact - four Hunters" and I saw the IAF aircraft diving to attack our airfield. I jettisoned my drops to dive through our own ack-ack after them. But in the meantime I saw two more Hunters about 1000 ft. to my rear, so I forgot the four in front and pulled up to go after the pair behind. The Hunters broke off their attempted attack on Sargodha, and the rear pair turned into me. I was flying much faster than they were at this stage - I must have been doing about 500 kts - so I pulled up to avoid overshooting them and then reversed to close in as they flew back towards India. I took the last man and dived behind him, getting very low in the process._

_The Hunter can out-run the Sabre, it's only about 50 knots faster, but has a much better acceleration, so it can pull away very rapidly. Since I was diving, I was going still faster, and as he was out of my gun range, I fired the first of my two GAR-8 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles at him. In this case, we were too low and I saw the missile hit the ground short of its target. This area east of Sargodha, however, has lots of high tension wires, some of them as high as 100-150 ft., and when I saw the two Hunters pull up to avoid one of these cables, I fired my second Sidewinder. The missile streaked ahead of me, but I didn't see it strike._

_The next thing I remember was that I was overshooting one of the Hunters and when I looked behind, the cockpit canopy was missing and there was no pilot in the aircraft. He had obviously pulled up and ejected and then I saw him coming down by parachute. This pilot [Sqn. Ldr. Onkar Nath Kakar, commander of an IAF squadron] was later taken prisoner. I lost sight of the other five Hunters, but I pressed on thinking maybe they would slow down. I had lots of fuel so I was prepared to fly 50 to 60 miles to catch up with them. We had just crossed the Chenab river when my wing man called out "Contact - Hunters 1 o'clock," and I picked them up at the same time - five Hunters in absolutely immaculate battle formation._

_They were flying at about 100 - 200 ft, at around 480 knots and when I was in gunfire range they saw me. They all broke in one direction, climbing and turning steeply to the left, which put them in loose line astern. This, of course, was their big mistake. If you are bounced, which means a close range approach by an enemy fighter to within less than about 3000 ft., the drill is to call a break. This is a panic maneuver to the limits of the aircraft's performance, which splits the formation and both gets you out of the way of an attack and frees you to position yourself behind your opponent. But in the absence of one of the IAF sections initiating a break in the other direction to sandwich our attack, they all simply stayed in front of us._

_It all happened very fast. We were all turning very tightly - in excess of 5g or just about on the limits of the Sabre's very accurate A-4 radar ranging gun-sight. And I think before we had completed more than about 270º of the turn, at around 12º per second, all four Hunters had been shot down. In each case, I got the pipper of my sight around the canopy of the Hunter for virtually a full deflection shot. Almost all our shooting throughout the war was at very high angles off - seldom less than about 30º. Unlike some of the Korean combat films I had seen, nobody in our war was shot down flying straight and level._

_My fifth victim of this sortie started spewing smoke and then rolled on to his back at about 1000 feet. I though he was going to do a barrel roll, which at low altitude is a very dangerous maneuver for the opponent if the man in front knows what he is doing. I went almost on my back and then I realised I might not be able to stay with him so I took off bank and pushed the nose down. The next time I fired was at very close range - about 600 ft. or so - and his aircraft virtually blew up in front of me. None of these four pilots ejected, and all of them were killed."_

According to Pushpinder Singh Chopra, Ravi Rikhye and Peter Steinemann in their book, Pakistan Fiza'ya: Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force, the PAF had released the names of the five pilots shot down by S/L Alam --> as S/L Kacker, S/L Devayya, S/L Bhagwat, F/L Guha and F/O Brar. But these names do not coincide with the names from Strike No.4, which PAF officials assume as Strike No.3, in which the PAF states that Alam shot down the five IAF Hunters. S/L Devayya was from Strike No.1, S/L Kacker from Strike No.3 and F/L Guha from Strike No.6. Only S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar were from Strike No.4 - the sortie in which S/L Alam was flying CAP over Sargodha. Then how is it possible that S/L Alam shot down five Hunters down in a matter of minutes when the IAF pilots, the PAF had stated, were all from different strikes at different times of the day?

S/L Kacker, one of the five pilots claimed by the PAF to be supposedly shot down by S/L Alam, was from Strike No.3 and not Strike No.4. Then how can S/L Kacker be added to S/L Alam's score of five IAF Hunters, since the difference in time between the two strikes is 18 minutes! The authors of Fiza'ya describe what actually happened to S/L Kacker and S/L Alam's first clash with the two Hunters*:*

_When Alam first went up, he encountered 2 Hunters. He specifically says he could not use his guns and so fired his Sidewinders. The first missed; the second he did not actually see striking, but on overshooting the victim saw a Hunter without canopy and pilot, and a pilot later identified as Kacker coming down by parachute. Kacker ejected near the border, which was 100km east of the main battle area, itself 50km east of Sargodha. So there is simply no manner in which Alam could have seen Kacker coming down. The first clash and its results are the product of Alam's imagination._

_Insofar as the two Hunters Alam first encountered were part of the five-plane third strike with whom Kacker was flying, Alam could have fired a missile at Kacker. But he did not strike him down, or anyone else on that first encounter. There is always the possibility that someone, say ground fire knicked Kacker causing him to eject many minutes later under the impression he had suffered a pure mechanical failure. Pilots usually have little idea of the damage they suffered and the hits they took till they return to base. Whatever maybe the reason, Kacker lost his Hunter, Alam had no part in it._

S/L Alam himself was not sure whether he shot down S/L Kacker, because the first Sidewinder he had fired missed the Hunter, while the second Sidewinder he fired did not see it strike. As Pushpinder Singh Chopra says, "T_he first clash and its results are a product of Alam's imagination._" After ejecting over Pakistan, S/L Kacker was subsequently captured and returned to India after the war. The four IAF pilots who flew with S/L Kacker also stated that he had ejected, due to a mechanical failure in his Hunter. In his book, My Years with the IAF, Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P.C. Lal interviewed these IAF pilots, who said*:*

"_Homeward bound, Rathore fought a defensive battle. Suddenly he noticed Kacker in front losing speed. Jog reduced speed for the formation to stay together. But Kacker had a fuel problem. His Bingo Lights, the fuel warning lights, came on and finally the engine flamed out. He had to eject_."

Though the cause of S/L Kacker's ejection may disputed, his wingmen testify to the absence of Sabres or Starfighters when he ejected.

S/L Devayya was one of the other pilots supposedly shot down by S/L Alam. However S/L Devayya was from Strike No.1 and flew a Mystere. The PAF again later corrected itself in saying that S/L Devayya was shot down by F/L Amjad Hussein, a F-104 pilot, just after the first strike had occurred. The claim of F/L Hussein itself is quite confusing as illustrated by the his report that he encountered a formation of two Mysteres, shot down one of them with cannon, shot down another but flew into the debris of the destroyed aircraft and had to eject.

To add to the confusion , Fricker has a different version to give. He said that F/L Hussein shot down one Mystere and was downed by another Mystere in air combat. Accordingly the PAF scaled down the claim to one Mystere downed by AA fire and another lost to the Starfighter. Fricker makes the claim of two Mysteres shot down again, and throws up more names to justify the claim. His account, after explaining how one Mystere was downed by AA fire and another shot down by F/L Hussein, goes on to say*:*

"_...The PAF later obtained the personal details of at least three IAF Mystere pilots who were killed in air combat over Pakistan on 7 September. From their ranks – two were Squadron Leaders (Jasbeer Singh and A.B. Devayya) and one a Flight Lieutenant (B Guha) – all were evidently officers of considerable experience….even if they had been junior personnel, a 50% mission loss rate could not be long endured by the IAF, or any other airforce for that matter._"

Either Fricker was trying to mislead the reader, or he was misled by the PAF himself. Fricker mentions S/L Jasbeer Singh, who was lost in an entirely unrelated raid on Rahwali, and F/L Guha, who was shot down later in the day to imply that the IAF lost more than 50% of the aircraft from the first raid over Sargodha. The composition of the pilots of the first raid was well discussed in the previous chapters with S/L Jasbeer Singh not belonging to any unit remotely associated with the Sargodha raids.

F/L Guha, piloted a Mystere and was from Strike No.6. He was shot down by F/L A.H. Malik who flew a F-86. The PAF later corrected its claim and now states that F/L Guha was indeed shot down by F/L Malik and not by S/L Alam.

The last two pilots - S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar - were from Strike No.4. They acted as Hunter escorts, for the three-ship Hunter formation they were accompanying. The strike was led by W/C Zachariah with S/L Lamba and S/L Sinha. Strike No.4 was at 0605 hrs, the same time S/L Alam was flying CAP over Sargodha. However Sargodha's defences were alerted from the previous strike and the Hunters from Strike No.4, laden with bombs and rockets, were sitting ducks for the PAF interceptors. Pushpinder Singh Chopra gives a more clearer picture of what happened to the second Hunter formation. The following is from his article in Vayu Aerospace Review, titled 'Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest'*:*

_Meanwhile, the second formation of Hunters, led by Wg. Cdr. Toric Zachariah, C.O. No.7 Squadron and comprising Sqn. Ldr. S.B. Bhagwat and Flg. Officer J.S. Brar as escorts, were heading towards Sargodha when they crossed the six Sabres, with two F-104s over-head, following the returning Hunters. According to strict operational instructions, which were to avoid air combat when weighed down by extra fuel tanks and rockets, the Hunters turned hard port to climb towards the Sabres which were some 3000 feet higher. Stores were jettisoned as the Sabres, diverted from the Hunters of No.27 Squadron, turned into the No.7 Squadron formation._

_With the element of surprise lost and the PAF operating Sidewinder-equipped Sabres and F-104s ranged against them, the formation leader instructed the Hunters to return to base. The aircraft exited individually at low level but the escort section consisting of Bhagwat and Brar got into a scrap and was overwhelmed by superior numbers and Sidewinders and from which they did not return. The remaining three Hunters; flown by Zachariah, Lamba and Sinha saw a number of other patrolling Sabres, particularly in the vicinity of Chak Jhumra airfield, but returned safely to Halwara._

It is not known as to which PAF pilot actually shot down S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar, but in the face of evidence S/L Alam is given the credit, since he was flying CAP over Sargodha at that time and he reached the area first . The latter was stated by Fricker himself in his book, Battle for Pakistan. Also no other PAF Sabre pilot claimed to have encountered air combat with Hunters that morning.

S/L Alam's eyewitnesses have proved to be quite damaging, rather than helpful. Their version of the events, from how they saw it, were different from S/L Alam's version. Take the example of W/C (retd.) M. Arif Iqbal - a F-104 pilot - who was providing CAP (Combat Air Patrol) on September 7th. In an article titled, "Eye-witness to M.M. Alam's encounter with the IAF" he states*:*

_"Like me, Alam had also spotted only four Hunters. He decided to engage the one on the extreme right first. It was then that he spotted a fifth Hunter further to the right. He changed his mind and switched his attack to this new find. Barely a couple of seconds must have lapsed before Alam six guns were spitting fire and fury at this Hunter and I saw a ball of fire hit the ground. Alam pulled his guns on to the next Hunter. A few seconds later, another ball of fire hit the ground. Then the Indians tried a half-hearted defensive manoeuvre. Alam was almost overshooting an enemy aircraft but by then he had destroyed it - a third ball of fire and the pilot of this Hunter managed to eject from his aircraft before it crashed. Alam was once again in a better position to tackle the two remaining Hunters. It was only a matter of moments before these two also turned into balls of fire and crashed into the ground."_

S/L Alam clearly states that he saw four Hunters attacking the airfield and another two 1000 feet to his rear. He then claims that he forgot about the other four and engaged the pair behind him. However Iqbal states that S/L Alam spotted only a fifth Hunter in addition to the earlier four. Or did Iqbal mistake two Hunters for one? In fact, Iqbal goes a step further and states the fifth Hunter S/L Alam spotted was to the right of the four-ship Hunter formation. Quite a contrast to S/L Alam's claim of seeing two Hunters a 1000 ft. to his rear!

S/L Alam also states that he used GAR-8 Sidewinders instead of his guns, when he attacked the two aircraft. According to Iqbal however, S/L Alam used only his guns and does not mention Alam using his Sidewinders. If Iqbal is referring to the second encounter, again discrepancies arise from his story. S/L Alam claims to have seen five IAF Hunters in immaculate battle formation and once he entered gunfire range, the IAF Hunters called a break. Iqbal however states that only after two Hunters were destroyed, did the remaining Hunters in the formation call the break. Obviously both versions are contradictory to each other, because it is very easy to determine three aircraft from five - especially when they are in the air.

The third Hunter in the formation, according to Iqbal, also became a victim of S/L Alam's guns but the pilot managed to eject before the aircraft crashed. S/L Alam states exactly the opposite of Iqbal and says, "None of these four pilots ejected, and all of them were killed." S/L Alam had in fact claimed the pilot who ejected as his first kill. Iqbal concludes the air battle by saying that S/L Alam destroyed the remaining two Hunters in the formation, thus bringing his total kill rate in that sortie to five aircraft. S/L Alam also concurs with that figure. It appears that that is the only thing S/L Alam and Iqbal agree on, because everything else in Iqbal's story is remarkably different from S/L Alam's version. Iqbal proudly claims to have been an eyewitness to the S/L Alam encounter. The impression left is that of a deliberate attempt by Iqbal to support S/L Alam's tally.

There are a few contradicting claims originating from Battle for Pakistan - a book which praised the PAF's role in 1965 and put S/L Alam on a pedestal - in which Fricker states the following*:*

_Many pilots have scored several air victories in one sortie, and have equalled or exceeded Alam's claims of shooting down up to five enemy aircraft of superior performance within a few minutes. But few are likely to be able to match his record of destroying at least 3 opponents - Hawker Hunters of the Indian Air Force - within the space of somewhere around 30 seconds. Admittedly, confirmation of Alam's claims has been difficult to obtain, despite close-range observation of his encounter by several PAF pilots, and some gun camera evidence. Nearest of these observers was his wingman, Fg. Off. Masood Akhtar, who, protecting his leader's tail, clung like a leech throughout the action._

_Another section of PAF Sabres, led by Flt. Lt. Bhatti, was attempting to engage the Hunters but Alam (at that time a Squadron Leader) got there first. Flying top cover in an F-104A Starfighter was Sqn. Ldr. Arif Iqbal who, with intense frustration, watched the brief combat with admiration. On this basis, Alam was originally credited with five IAF Hunters destroyed, although the wreckage of only two could be found in Pakistani territory, within 2 or 3 miles of Sangla Hill railway station. The bodies of the pilots - one Hindu and one Sikh - was burnt beyond recognition. The area of the main engagement, however, some 30 miles east of Sargodha airfield, was only about 55nm inside the Pakistani border - some seven or eight minutes at jet speed._

What is unusual about Fricker's story is that he states "_at least three Hunters in 30 seconds_" when S/L Alam clearly stated in his account above, which is also from the *same* book, that he shot down four Hunters in that *same* time period. This clearly illustrates the fact that even Fricker found the PAF's claims difficult to digest. Fricker also believes that evidence for Alam's claim was "_difficult to obtain_", even when eye witnesses and gun camera evidence were present. However the disparity in the story of M. Arif Iqbal and S/L Alam is very difficult to explain.

Arriving at the gun camera evidence, which is displayed every September 7th in Pakistan to commemorate PAF Day, it appears that a crucial factor is overlooked. Did the gun camera pictures come from that particular battle? There is enough evidence to suggest that all is not what it seems to be. As Pushpindar Singh Chopra in his Vayu Aerospace Review article, 'Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest' says*:*

_Amongst earlier examples of clumsy propaganda was a photograph purporting to depict an Indian Hunter on fire but later identified as cut from a training film showing a Pakistani Sabre firing rockets against practice ground targets._

This indicates, that the gun camera evidence must have been most likely tampered with, to prove that S/L Alam had indeed shot down five Hunters! After all, gun camera evidence along with the names, would have sealed any doubts about the validity of S/L Alam's claim. The PAF indeed go to great lengths to back their claims! Moreover, the legitimacy of gun camera shots becomes questionable when it is considered that it depends on the word of the claimant that the evidence was from that particular circumstance. There is no way to check the date, time or particulars of where those particular pictures were taken. One of the camera gunshots of a Hunter was captured at an almost impossible angle, something only achieved if the Sabre was flying sideways and downwards. Gun camera pictures become important in the absence of any other form of evidence, like wrecks and/or captured aircrew. As these kills were near Sargodha, the PAF should not have had any problem in producing evidence in terms of wreckage/pilots. But Pakistan had problems providing evidence in terms of wreckage and pilots recovered too.

Fricker also states "_...only two could be found in Pakistani territory..._" and if S/L Alam shot down five Hunters, then why is it that only two wreckages were found? Fricker said that the engagement took place "_...only 55nm inside the Pakistani border..._" and by that he suggested that the other aircraft might have crashed in Indian territory. However this is contradicted by S/L Alam's version*:* "_These aircraft virtually blew up in front of me. None of these four pilots ejected, and all of them were killed._" This meant that all aircraft either blew up or crashed in front of his eyes and therefore in Pakistani territory, for nowhere did Alam claim that the battle took him into India. How and when this version transformed into a story about the Hunters crashing in Indian territory is not known.




*This wreck of a Hunter that was shot down in Pakistan shows the serial number of the aircraft as BA-330. The pilot is not known.*
It should be mentioned that S/L Alam's story was first narrated to Fricker during 1967, and Fricker bought out an article on this 'Ace in a Day' in the Air Enthusiast magazine. The initial article did not have the names of the Indian pilots claimed shot down by S/L Alam. When Pushpindar Singh, a noted Indian aviation historian sent a letter to the magazine disputing S/L Alam's claim, Fricker issued a rejoinder that amounted to shooting himself in the foot. Fricker stated that he had interviewed, separately and independently, three PAF pilots who witnessed the event in addition to Alam and their stories coincided almost precisely. Later, Fricker gave the names of five Indian pilots provided by the Pakistani sources that he claimed were victims of S/L Alam. The names given were S/L Kacker, S/L Devayya, S/L Bhagwat, F/L Guha and F/O Brar. Fricker's sarcastic taunts were that the Indian government would disown their own personnel in order to prove him wrong! When the obvious was pointed out regarding the timings of the raids and the types flown by individual pilots, Fricker was chastised. Seven years later when Battle for Pakistan was published, a slightly reformed Fricker dispelled claims of S/L Devayya and F/L Guha being Hunter pilots, admitted that S/L Kacker was lost to engine failure and that only S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar were possible victims of S/L Alam.

Fricker tries to build some ground behind the claim of S/L Alam’s Hunter by referring to the IAF's list of casualties. Fricker states that the PAF has record of at least five IAF Hunter pilots who were killed on unspecified dates and circumstances. This was collated at the end of the war when the IAF released a list of officers killed in operations. The list contained the names of only those pilots who were killed over Indian territory. The IAF did not give any details on the dates and circumstances of how some of these officers were killed or from which unit they belonged to. The PAF identified certain names as those of Hunter pilots. The names of S/L A.K. Rawlley, F/O F.D. Bunsha, F/L T.K. Chaudhari and F/O G.S. Ahuja stood out prominently as they were known to be Hunter pilots. Though Fricker does not state this explicitly, he implies that among these five names are names of S/L Alam's victims as well as other victims of the air combat over Halwara in which the PAF claimed five Hunters shot down and destroyed. Fricker would hardly know, nor did many Indians for that matter, the circumstances of the deaths of the above pilots. Only in the 1990s did details of how some of the pilots who were killed emerged. None of them could be attributed to the kills of S/L Alam, either over Halwara (India) or over Sargodha (Pakistan).

Being carried away with extravagant claims does not stop with PAF pilots. It was extended through out the day, especially to the gunners of Sargodha who had a part in downing four aircraft, all Mysteres. Curiously the PAF, which was so enthusiastic in putting forward the five names of the pilots, is nowhere in the picture when questioned as to who the pilots were of the Mysteres claimed by F/L Hussain and F/L Malik, or by the gunners of Sargodha. A similar response is encountered with the Pakistani failure to show evidence in terms of wreckage of the six Mysteres supposed to have been shot down, where only evidence for two exists. However, even if the PAF got three of the five names wrong, then the pilots who participated in Strike No.4 - W/C Zachariah, F/L Lamba and F/L Sinha - should have all been dead, since S/L Alam himself stated none of the four pilots had ejected and they were all killed. However, F/L Lamba and F/L Sinha later became Air Marshals of the IAF and Zachariah is settled in the United Kingdom. Surely the IAF does not promote deceased personnel and neither does a person settle in the United Kingdom or any other foreign nation after he is dead! It is thus impossible that S/L Alam could have shot them down either. Then which were the five Hunter pilots, S/L Alam had shot? Or how many did he really shoot?

There is an amusing story, in Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P.C. Lal's book, My Years with the IAF, in which he states*:*

_The personal account of M.M. Sinha who took part in the 1965 War shows how misleading some of these claims and counterclaims can be. In 1969, both India And Pakistan had sent officers to the Joint Services Staff College at Latimer in England. One evening at the bar, a Pakistani officer attending the course was speaking to another Pakistani officer visiting him. Talking of old times with great satisfaction, he was recounting what happened at Sargodha in Pakistan on 7 September. He was talking of the raid, by Hunters and five of them were shot down by Sqn. Ldr. Alam alone as recounted in John Fricker's book. The Indian Officer on the course, M.M. Sinha, happened to overhear the statement. "It was as not so," he said "you got only two."_

_"Nonsense", retorted the Pakistani Officer, "How do you know exactly what happened?"_

_"I should know" said Sinha, "I took part in that raid. We lost only two - Fg. Off. Brar and Sqn. Ldr. Bhagwat. Sqn. Ldr. Kacker had to eject because his engine developed some trouble and it flamed out due to fuel starvation. He became a POW." There was an awkward silence. "The other members of that raid, or rather two raids, are all still alive. I can give you their addresses if you want to check. One of them Wg. Cdr. A.T.R.H. Zachariah, the former CO of No.7 Sqn has an English Wife and is right here in England."_

Lately, it seems that the list of the five pilots have been mysteriously changed from S/L Devayya to S/L Rawlley - popularly also known as Peter. S/L Devayya was a Mystere pilot, while S/L Rawlley was a Hunter pilot and it is understandable why the PAF changed the names to keep with the story of only Hunters being shot down by Alam on September 7th. However, in an attempt to keep this absurd claim alive, the PAF missed a very big point. Although S/L Rawlley did get into an air battle with S/L Alam, it occurred on September 6th, a day earlier, in Halwara - 200 miles away from Sargodha! Even Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P.C. Lal in his book - My Years in the IAF stated that S/L Rawlley was killed on September 6th. The most interesting source, however, comes from Pakistan itself. In a September 1998 issue of Defence Journal - a Pakistani defence magazine - an article titled, Sqn. Ldr. Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafiqui, stated the following*:*

_On the evening of 6th September 1965, an ill-fated formation of three aircraft took off from Sargodha for a raid on Halwara airfield, one of the three, that had been singled out for a pre-emptive strike. Led by Sqn. Ldr. Rafiqui, with Flt. Lt. Cecil Chaudhry as No.2 and Flt. Lt. Yunus Hussain as No.3, the formation hurtled across into enemy territory in fast fading light. Sqn. Ldr. M.M. Alam's formation, also of three aircraft, which had taken-off ten minutes earlier, was returning after an abortive raid on Adampur. They had been bounced by four Hunters, themselves proceeding on a mission against Pak Army formations. Rafiqui was warned by Alam's section to watch out for Hunters in the area. At Halwara, IAF's No.7 Squadron equipped with Hunters had flown four strikes during the day. These were armed reconnaissance missions, which had had little success in finding worthwhile targets. The fourth and last strike for the day was on its way to the precincts of Lahore, when it had encountered Alam's formation near Taran Taran. In that engagement Sqn. Ldr. Peter Rawlley's Hunter impacted the ground as he did a defensive break at very low level, with Alam firing at him from stern._

The authors of Fiza'ya further explain theSeptember 6th incident*:*

_Very oddly, though Alam is credited with two Hunters in the Adampur attack on September 6th, the previous day, he himself is exceptionally circumspect about the incident. He fired on one Hunter and saw him go into the ground in flames but says "*...I am not certain whether I hit him or not,*" indicating that one of his other pilots might be responsible. While exiting he took a long shot at a Hunter. "*...I think I registered hits - I only saw smoke coming out, but no flames.*" Here he is not even claiming certain damage, leave alone the aircraft._

While, the first Hunter, S/L Alam can claim to have destroyed, the second Hunter he *assumes* that he had shot it down. It is quite a mystery as to how the second kill on September 6th, could be added to S/L Alam's score. 

S/L Alam's last battle, according to the PAF, occurred on September 16th near Halwara AFB. In this air battle, S/L Alam claims to have shot down two Hunters and describes what happened. However, one of S/L Alam's claimed victims - then F/L P.S. Pingale - narrates his side of the story as well. Jon Guttman, in a 1998 Aviation History article titled, 'Pakistan's Sabre Ace' gives S/L Alam's and F/L Pingale's version of the events*:*

_"They were flying very fast," Alam reported afterward. "We were doing about Mach .8, but they must have been diving at around Mach .95 or more. They couldn't stay in our turn, so they zoomed up in a yo-yo manoeuvre. When I reversed back they both pulled through from there, and we dived behind them until at 13-14,000 feet they separated in a vertical break." Alam went after the climbing Hunter and engaged it at about 20,000 feet. His first burst of gunfire missed, but his second scored a hit. "At the third burst, he became a ball of flame," Alam said, "so I turned back and looked for my wingman....Then suddenly I lost all radio contact with him, although I could see him in the distance and I saw the Hunter break away from him. "The Hunter saw me," Alam continued, "and although he was close to his base, he didn't want to accept combat. He turned away from me and rapidly accelerated rapidly in a dive, although I followed as closely as possible behind him. I knew we were approaching close to the airfield of Halwara and suspected a trap, but then he did a loose sort of a roll to clear his tail, so he had obviously lost me. I had dived a good 5-6000 feet below him, at about Mach .94-.95, and when I felt that he was slowing down, I fired a Sidewinder at him. There was something wrong with this missile, however as it turned, through about 90 degrees soon after its release."_

_"I continued diving after him, however, and then released my second Sidewinder which scored a hit on his right wing root. As it began to smoke, I saw that we were just crossing the Halwara Canal and as I was well inside Indian territory and getting a bit short of fuel, I immediately half-rolled and dived down to treetop level. When I hit the border between India and Pakistan, I climbed up to conserve fuel, feeling very miserable at having lost my No.2."_

_Although Alam had not seen the second Hunter crash, the PAF credited him with both planes, for his eighth and ninth victories of the war. As in the earlier cases, one of Alam's victims survived to give his own description of the fight. When the PAF F-86s were reported, Flying Officers Prakash S. Pingale and F. Dara Bunsha of No.7 Squadron scrambled up from Halwara. Pingale reported that he got behind the first Sabre, which turned south, then spotted the second, "at about 4 o'clock at a range of 1,000 yards and about to fire on us." He then told Bunsha to "go for Sabre No.1," while he engaged the other. "Sabre No.2 attempted to shake me off by pulling up into the sun," Pingale said. "He also jettisoned his external loads and pulled up steeply as a last-ditch maneuver to make me overshoot him, perhaps by the use of leading edge slats....I was able to open fire at about 3000-4000 yards. The aircraft literally exploded in front of me." At that point, Pingale saw Bunsha engaging in scissors manoeuvres with Alam's F-86. He radioed a warning to Bunsha that the Sabre held the advantage in such a fight. But Bunsha was going down in flames by the time he intervened._

_"Seeing my coming towards him, Sabre No.1 left my No.2 and turned towards me," Pingale continued. "As we crossed head-in, he opened fire on me," Pingale continued. "As we crossed head-on, he opened fire on me....As I reversed to engage Sabre No.1 in 1-vs-1 combat, to my utter dismay I found that instead of fighting with me he had half-rolled and was speedily trying to get away in a vertical dive. I attempted to close in but lost contact with Sabre No.1 because I blacked out due to excessive g (around 8-10 as recorded by my g-meter)." As he returned to Halwara, Pingale could not recall seeing his Pakistani opponent ever fire a missile at him, but he later admitted that his perceptions were somewhat impaired by the pain of a slight back injury he had sustained after being hit by ground fire and bailing out a few days earlier, aggravated by the effects of his high-g turn._

Entirely two different stories arise from both men - S/L Alam and F/L Pingale. There is no doubt that F/O Farokh Dara Bunsha became a victim of S/L Alam's guns, But whether F/L Pingale himself became a victim of S/L Alam's guns is certainly debatable. S/L Alam claims that the first Sidewinder he fired malfunctioned, and the second hit F/L Pingale's Hunter on the wing root. S/L Alam however did not stay for long to confirm his second kill, as he realised he was deep in Indian territory. F/L Pingale on the other hand, had returned safely to Halwara which might suggest that he landed back at base. What is of greater significance is that the PAF adds F/L Pingale's kill to S/L Alam's list, when no evidence of any kind - eyewitness, gun camera, etc. - was ever present.

The PAF claimed a total of nine confirmed kills for S/L Alam in the 1965 air war. They were respectively, according to the PAF, two on September 6th, five on September 7th and two more on September 16th. However with the damning evidence presented above, his claims stand no ground. Given the modesty of his claims for September 6th and the extravagance of his claims for September 7th, S/L Alam is certainly a complex personality. Surprisingly, the most contradicting claim comes from the PAF. The authors in Fiza'ya say, "_Alam's citation for the Sitara-e-Jurat and Bar, cites him as shooting down four Hunters on September 7th and two on September 6th._" Thus, even the PAF in 1965, did not claim five Hunters over Sargodha on September 7th! When and why the number changed to five, is not known. Also there is no mention of the September 16th incident in the citation! This it appears, was added later on.

Jon Guttman, in an Aviation History article titled, 'Pakistan's Sabre Ace' states that Sqn. Ldr. Alam's professional relationship with the Pakistan Air Force suffered after the 1965 war due to certain reasons. The following are excerpts from that article;

_Alam commanded No.11 Squadron until April 1966. In November 1967, he was promoted to Wing Commander, given the command of No.5 Squadron and charged with overseeing the introduction of the newly imported Dassault Mirage IIIEP into that unit. At about that time, however, Alam began to have problems as a result of professional jealousies and personal resentments among fellow PAF officers. For one thing, there were some accusations that while Alam was a virtuoso pilot, his leadership qualities at the senior officer level left something much to be desired. As Pakistan's first ace, much was expected of him after the war, and his more limited administrative abilities may have suffered further under the pressure of such expectations._

_Alam was also reappraising his lifestyle, reaching the conclusion that the abandonment of traditional Islamic values by the PAF constituted a betrayal of the people it served. The most obvious symbol of that compromise of values was the consumption of alcohol. Alam not only quit drinking but also began trying to persuade his colleagues to banish alcohol from the officers' mess. Inevitably, Alam's growing zeal rubbed many PAF officers - a good many of whim were his superiors - the wrong way._

_In 1969, Alam attended the staff college, but he was removed from the course in 1970 under the absurd pretext that he could not read and write. In May, he was relieved of command of No.5 Squadron - which was given to Wing Commander Hakimullah Khan - and played no active role in the Indo-Pak War of December 1971. Alam was given command of No.26 Squadron in January 1972 but lost it just two months later._

It must have been surely insulting for S/L Alam to have been removed from staff college in 1970 on the basis that he could not read or write! Even more damaging was his non-active role in 1971, when just six years earlier in 1965, he was on the top of the PAF. To be then removed from command of No.26 Squadron just two months after he got it in 1972, must have surely hurt his ego deeply. Alam retired as an Air Commodore in March 1982 and lives a secluded lifestyle in Karachi. He has become a devout Muslim, being often described as a mullah who spends his time praying and forecasting condemnation to hell for the PAF Officers who are less devout!

Now why the Pakistan Air Force concocted this incredible story is not known. As Pushpinder Singh Chopra in his Vayu Aerospace Review article, 'Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest' states, "The people of Pakistan had to be re-assured that their Air Force's super image carefully cultivated over the years, was restored by examples of daring-do and glory." In Fiza'ya, the authors state that while the PAF's 1982 History accepts Alam's story as told by Fricker, the PAF's 1988 History is surprisingly silent about the names. In fact, the PAF 1988 History does not even list the names of the five IAF pilots. The truth lies with Senior Officers of the Pakistan Air Force and it would be really sorry if they believed their own myths.

The PAF and Pakistanis in general have led the world to believe that Alam did indeed shoot down five IAF Hunters on September 7th. However, if it wasn't for the efforts of Pushpinder Singh Chopra and others, Alam's nonsensical claim of being Pakistan's top air ace would have crawled its way as an unprecedented feat into the annals of jet warfare. However, it is nothing more than one of the PAF's numerous unsubstantiated claims!


An article that blasts alam's claims.​

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## Jf Thunder

Ganga said:


> Contrary to popular opinion over here MM ALAM is not the first South Asian ace. The first South Asian ace was a Sardarji who shot down 5 Luftwaffe jets in the Battle of Britain. I am trying to find a link. I remember reading an article in the BBC a couple of years ago when he passed away. I personally do not believe the MM ALAM story. In my opinion it was concocted by the Pakistanis to support the ridiculous idea that one Pakistani is equal to many Indians.
> 
> The name of the pilot is Hardit Singh and he participated in the 1st ww. 9 Aerial victories
> 
> sikhchic.com | The Art and Culture of the Diaspora | Flying Ace & Pioneer


sure whatever man believe in whatever you want, and i still believe in the MM Alam story, cuz i just love that story in which he shot down 4 planes in 30 seconds, and those also Hawker Hunters of the proud Indians, i hope someone does it again lol


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## Capt.Popeye

AUSTERLITZ said:


> The action was swift. Squadron Leader Mohammed Mahmud Alam, commanding No.11 Sqn in the PAF, shot down five IAF Hunters over Sargodha in a matter of minutes - four of which he shot down in a mere thirty seconds! Or did he really? This suppositious feat by Squadron Leader M.M. Alam was - and still is - to stay as the jewel in the crown of Pakistan's fictitious glory over the skies in 1965. After all the PAF had to stick up with President Ayub Khan's claim of one Pakistani being equal to three Indians.
> 
> It all started on 07 September 1965, with the IAF's attack on Sargodha - the principle airbase of the PAF. Over 50% of the PAF combat strength was located at this base and thus it had to be taken out at all costs. The IAF planned and executed six strikes against Sargodha at different times of day, hoping to neutralise the PAF on the ground. The table below lists the strikes for September 07th, with the PAF and IAF's version of losses;
> 
> *Strike No. TOT (PST) TOT (PST) Squadron No. Aircraft Used Losses as per PAF Actual Losses*
> 1 0558 0538 1 7 Mysteres 2-4* / 6 1
> 2 0558 0538 8 8 Mysteres - -
> 3 0615 0547 27 5 Hunters 1 / 6 1
> 4 0633 0605 7 5 Hunters 5 / 6 2
> 5 1000 0945 1 4 Mysteres 0 / 4 -
> 6 1515 1540 1 2 Mysteres 1-2* / 4 1
> *NOTE:* The initial versions of the PAF claimed four Mysteres downed in the first raid --> two to AA and two to the F-104 _Starfighter_. Later on this was revised to one each. The last raid was however upgraded from one combat kill to two kills. Either way the PAF claimed nothing less than ten kills on that day. Thus out of the six strikes and 26 sorties flown by the IAF as per the PAF records, the PAF claims the downing of ten IAF aircraft, reason enough to designate September 7th as Yaum-e-Fiza'ya (Day of the PAF), in the honour of the PAF giving the IAF a bloody nose.
> 
> Strikes No.1 and 2 occurred at 0538 hours and were appropriately logged by the IAF and the PAF. No.1 Squadron was assigned Sargodha (Main), while No.8 Squadron was assigned Bhagtanwala (East). However, since both attacked Sargodha simultaneously, but at two different complexes, the PAF thought Strike No.1 and No.2 to be a single strike. Thus there was confusion with the PAF's recounting of events at the very start.
> 
> Strike No.1, from No.1 Squadron and led by W/C O.P. Taneja, had three waves of four Mysteres each. However the third wave lost it's direction and two Mysteres from the second wave had engine trouble and had return to base. A reserve Mystere, piloted by S/L A.B. Devayya, was ordered to take off and join up with Strike No.1 bringing the total number of Mysteres to seven aircraft. In this strike, the IAF lost one Mystere while the PAF claims four Mysteres - two to anti-aircraft fire and two to a prowling F-104 _Starfighter_.
> 
> Strike No.2, from No.8 Squadron and led by S/L M.S. Jatar, consisted of two waves of four Mysteres each. This strike went smoothly and no Mysteres were lost to ground fire or enemy interceptors. The PAF however, claims the loss of no Hunters in Strike No.2 when in reality it was Mysteres which had participated! This confusion was caused because Strike No.3, which consisted of Hunters, was thought to be Strike No.2 by the PAF. Also eight Mysteres had attacked Sargodha in Strike No.2 and not six as shown in the PAF table.
> 
> Strike No.3, from No.27 Squadron, was at 0547 hours and was appropriately logged by the IAF. The PAF logs the same time, but as Strike No.2! This was the first Hunter formation of the day and it consisted of four aircraft, led by S/L D.S. Jog with S/L Onkar Nath Kacker, F/L T.K. Chaudhuri and F/L P.S. Parihar as his wingmen, and one Hunter escort, piloted by F/L D.N. Rathore. In this strike the IAF lost one Hunter, while the PAF claims no Hunters were lost.
> 
> Strike No.4, from No.7 Squadron, was at 0605 hours and was appropriately logged by the IAF. The PAF logs the same time, but as Strike No.3! This was the second and last Hunter formation of the day and had three strike aircraft, led by W/C A.T.R.H. Zachariah with S/L M.M. Sinha and S/L A.S. Lamba as his wingmen, and had two Hunter escorts, piloted by S/L S.B. Bhagwat and F/O J.S. Brar. In this strike, the IAF lost the two Hunter escorts, while the PAF claims five Hunters. According to the PAF, it was in this strike where S/L Alam shot down the five Hunters, killing four of the pilots. This will be disputed in detail later on, but now back to the last two strikes.
> 
> Strike No.5, from No.1 Squadron, was at 0945 hours and was appropriately logged by the IAF. The PAF logs the same time, but as Strike No.4! This was a four-ship Mystere formation and was led by S/L Sudharshan Handa with F/L D.S. Brar, F/L D.S. Khaki and F/L Philip Rajkumar as wingmen. This strike was the most successful of the day - it succeeded in both surprising the Pakistanis as well as in destroying worthwhile targets on the ground. The strike went smoothly and the IAF lost no Mysteres while the PAF too claims the loss of no IAF aircraft.
> 
> Strike No.6, again from No.1 Squadron, was at 1540 hrs and was appropriately logged by the IAF. The PAF logs the strike at the same time, but as Strike No.5! This was a two-ship Mystere formation and had S/L D.E. Satur with F/L U.B. Guha as his wingman. In this strike, the IAF lost one Mystere, while the PAF too claims the same loss. Later versions of the raid by the PAF claim a second Mystere to have been shot down by anti-aircraft fire. The PAF errs in again claiming that there were four Mysteres that were observed; Indian records mention only two Mysteres as having participated in this raid.
> 
> Thus ends the IAF strikes for September 7th. While the IAF states that six strikes occurred and five aircraft were lost, the PAF claims as many as ten aircraft to have been shot down. For the PAF this was reason enough to celebrate the day as PAF day. But the loss of five aircraft in six raids on a heavily defended airfield is hardly reason for celebration on the part of the PAF. The PAF did not deal a crippling blow to the IAF as the Israelis did to the Arab Air Forces in 1967. The damage was miniscule compared to the overall size of the IAF. Yet the PAF built up the image that it had completely mauled the IAF over its skies. The aircraft involved on both sides were pitifully small. But the total losses of IAF over Sargodha were magnified and distorted out of proportion to justify the claim that the PAF was saving Pakistan itself!
> 
> However before we move any further, we first have to hear S/L Alam's side of the story, which was published in Battle for Pakistan, a book written by John Fricker - an aviation journalist and an old & trustworthy friend of the PAF. He was appointed by the PAF to write their version of what happened in the skies in 1965 and he wrote what they had expected - a flattering account of the air war, in which the PAF won flaps down. Thus, here is S/L Alam's version, taken from Battle for Pakistan, of what happened on that fateful day*:*
> 
> _"As we were vectored back towards Sargodha, Akthar [his wingman] called, "Contact - four Hunters" and I saw the IAF aircraft diving to attack our airfield. I jettisoned my drops to dive through our own ack-ack after them. But in the meantime I saw two more Hunters about 1000 ft. to my rear, so I forgot the four in front and pulled up to go after the pair behind. The Hunters broke off their attempted attack on Sargodha, and the rear pair turned into me. I was flying much faster than they were at this stage - I must have been doing about 500 kts - so I pulled up to avoid overshooting them and then reversed to close in as they flew back towards India. I took the last man and dived behind him, getting very low in the process._
> 
> _The Hunter can out-run the Sabre, it's only about 50 knots faster, but has a much better acceleration, so it can pull away very rapidly. Since I was diving, I was going still faster, and as he was out of my gun range, I fired the first of my two GAR-8 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles at him. In this case, we were too low and I saw the missile hit the ground short of its target. This area east of Sargodha, however, has lots of high tension wires, some of them as high as 100-150 ft., and when I saw the two Hunters pull up to avoid one of these cables, I fired my second Sidewinder. The missile streaked ahead of me, but I didn't see it strike._
> 
> _The next thing I remember was that I was overshooting one of the Hunters and when I looked behind, the cockpit canopy was missing and there was no pilot in the aircraft. He had obviously pulled up and ejected and then I saw him coming down by parachute. This pilot [Sqn. Ldr. Onkar Nath Kakar, commander of an IAF squadron] was later taken prisoner. I lost sight of the other five Hunters, but I pressed on thinking maybe they would slow down. I had lots of fuel so I was prepared to fly 50 to 60 miles to catch up with them. We had just crossed the Chenab river when my wing man called out "Contact - Hunters 1 o'clock," and I picked them up at the same time - five Hunters in absolutely immaculate battle formation._
> 
> _They were flying at about 100 - 200 ft, at around 480 knots and when I was in gunfire range they saw me. They all broke in one direction, climbing and turning steeply to the left, which put them in loose line astern. This, of course, was their big mistake. If you are bounced, which means a close range approach by an enemy fighter to within less than about 3000 ft., the drill is to call a break. This is a panic maneuver to the limits of the aircraft's performance, which splits the formation and both gets you out of the way of an attack and frees you to position yourself behind your opponent. But in the absence of one of the IAF sections initiating a break in the other direction to sandwich our attack, they all simply stayed in front of us._
> 
> _It all happened very fast. We were all turning very tightly - in excess of 5g or just about on the limits of the Sabre's very accurate A-4 radar ranging gun-sight. And I think before we had completed more than about 270º of the turn, at around 12º per second, all four Hunters had been shot down. In each case, I got the pipper of my sight around the canopy of the Hunter for virtually a full deflection shot. Almost all our shooting throughout the war was at very high angles off - seldom less than about 30º. Unlike some of the Korean combat films I had seen, nobody in our war was shot down flying straight and level._
> 
> _My fifth victim of this sortie started spewing smoke and then rolled on to his back at about 1000 feet. I though he was going to do a barrel roll, which at low altitude is a very dangerous maneuver for the opponent if the man in front knows what he is doing. I went almost on my back and then I realised I might not be able to stay with him so I took off bank and pushed the nose down. The next time I fired was at very close range - about 600 ft. or so - and his aircraft virtually blew up in front of me. None of these four pilots ejected, and all of them were killed."_
> 
> According to Pushpinder Singh Chopra, Ravi Rikhye and Peter Steinemann in their book, Pakistan Fiza'ya: Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force, the PAF had released the names of the five pilots shot down by S/L Alam --> as S/L Kacker, S/L Devayya, S/L Bhagwat, F/L Guha and F/O Brar. But these names do not coincide with the names from Strike No.4, which PAF officials assume as Strike No.3, in which the PAF states that Alam shot down the five IAF Hunters. S/L Devayya was from Strike No.1, S/L Kacker from Strike No.3 and F/L Guha from Strike No.6. Only S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar were from Strike No.4 - the sortie in which S/L Alam was flying CAP over Sargodha. Then how is it possible that S/L Alam shot down five Hunters down in a matter of minutes when the IAF pilots, the PAF had stated, were all from different strikes at different times of the day?
> 
> S/L Kacker, one of the five pilots claimed by the PAF to be supposedly shot down by S/L Alam, was from Strike No.3 and not Strike No.4. Then how can S/L Kacker be added to S/L Alam's score of five IAF Hunters, since the difference in time between the two strikes is 18 minutes! The authors of Fiza'ya describe what actually happened to S/L Kacker and S/L Alam's first clash with the two Hunters*:*
> 
> _When Alam first went up, he encountered 2 Hunters. He specifically says he could not use his guns and so fired his Sidewinders. The first missed; the second he did not actually see striking, but on overshooting the victim saw a Hunter without canopy and pilot, and a pilot later identified as Kacker coming down by parachute. Kacker ejected near the border, which was 100km east of the main battle area, itself 50km east of Sargodha. So there is simply no manner in which Alam could have seen Kacker coming down. The first clash and its results are the product of Alam's imagination._
> 
> _Insofar as the two Hunters Alam first encountered were part of the five-plane third strike with whom Kacker was flying, Alam could have fired a missile at Kacker. But he did not strike him down, or anyone else on that first encounter. There is always the possibility that someone, say ground fire knicked Kacker causing him to eject many minutes later under the impression he had suffered a pure mechanical failure. Pilots usually have little idea of the damage they suffered and the hits they took till they return to base. Whatever maybe the reason, Kacker lost his Hunter, Alam had no part in it._
> 
> S/L Alam himself was not sure whether he shot down S/L Kacker, because the first Sidewinder he had fired missed the Hunter, while the second Sidewinder he fired did not see it strike. As Pushpinder Singh Chopra says, "T_he first clash and its results are a product of Alam's imagination._" After ejecting over Pakistan, S/L Kacker was subsequently captured and returned to India after the war. The four IAF pilots who flew with S/L Kacker also stated that he had ejected, due to a mechanical failure in his Hunter. In his book, My Years with the IAF, Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P.C. Lal interviewed these IAF pilots, who said*:*
> 
> "_Homeward bound, Rathore fought a defensive battle. Suddenly he noticed Kacker in front losing speed. Jog reduced speed for the formation to stay together. But Kacker had a fuel problem. His Bingo Lights, the fuel warning lights, came on and finally the engine flamed out. He had to eject_."
> 
> Though the cause of S/L Kacker's ejection may disputed, his wingmen testify to the absence of Sabres or Starfighters when he ejected.
> 
> S/L Devayya was one of the other pilots supposedly shot down by S/L Alam. However S/L Devayya was from Strike No.1 and flew a Mystere. The PAF again later corrected itself in saying that S/L Devayya was shot down by F/L Amjad Hussein, a F-104 pilot, just after the first strike had occurred. The claim of F/L Hussein itself is quite confusing as illustrated by the his report that he encountered a formation of two Mysteres, shot down one of them with cannon, shot down another but flew into the debris of the destroyed aircraft and had to eject.
> 
> To add to the confusion , Fricker has a different version to give. He said that F/L Hussein shot down one Mystere and was downed by another Mystere in air combat. Accordingly the PAF scaled down the claim to one Mystere downed by AA fire and another lost to the Starfighter. Fricker makes the claim of two Mysteres shot down again, and throws up more names to justify the claim. His account, after explaining how one Mystere was downed by AA fire and another shot down by F/L Hussein, goes on to say*:*
> 
> "_...The PAF later obtained the personal details of at least three IAF Mystere pilots who were killed in air combat over Pakistan on 7 September. From their ranks – two were Squadron Leaders (Jasbeer Singh and A.B. Devayya) and one a Flight Lieutenant (B Guha) – all were evidently officers of considerable experience….even if they had been junior personnel, a 50% mission loss rate could not be long endured by the IAF, or any other airforce for that matter._"
> 
> Either Fricker was trying to mislead the reader, or he was misled by the PAF himself. Fricker mentions S/L Jasbeer Singh, who was lost in an entirely unrelated raid on Rahwali, and F/L Guha, who was shot down later in the day to imply that the IAF lost more than 50% of the aircraft from the first raid over Sargodha. The composition of the pilots of the first raid was well discussed in the previous chapters with S/L Jasbeer Singh not belonging to any unit remotely associated with the Sargodha raids.
> 
> F/L Guha, piloted a Mystere and was from Strike No.6. He was shot down by F/L A.H. Malik who flew a F-86. The PAF later corrected its claim and now states that F/L Guha was indeed shot down by F/L Malik and not by S/L Alam.
> 
> The last two pilots - S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar - were from Strike No.4. They acted as Hunter escorts, for the three-ship Hunter formation they were accompanying. The strike was led by W/C Zachariah with S/L Lamba and S/L Sinha. Strike No.4 was at 0605 hrs, the same time S/L Alam was flying CAP over Sargodha. However Sargodha's defences were alerted from the previous strike and the Hunters from Strike No.4, laden with bombs and rockets, were sitting ducks for the PAF interceptors. Pushpinder Singh Chopra gives a more clearer picture of what happened to the second Hunter formation. The following is from his article in Vayu Aerospace Review, titled 'Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest'*:*
> 
> _Meanwhile, the second formation of Hunters, led by Wg. Cdr. Toric Zachariah, C.O. No.7 Squadron and comprising Sqn. Ldr. S.B. Bhagwat and Flg. Officer J.S. Brar as escorts, were heading towards Sargodha when they crossed the six Sabres, with two F-104s over-head, following the returning Hunters. According to strict operational instructions, which were to avoid air combat when weighed down by extra fuel tanks and rockets, the Hunters turned hard port to climb towards the Sabres which were some 3000 feet higher. Stores were jettisoned as the Sabres, diverted from the Hunters of No.27 Squadron, turned into the No.7 Squadron formation._
> 
> _With the element of surprise lost and the PAF operating Sidewinder-equipped Sabres and F-104s ranged against them, the formation leader instructed the Hunters to return to base. The aircraft exited individually at low level but the escort section consisting of Bhagwat and Brar got into a scrap and was overwhelmed by superior numbers and Sidewinders and from which they did not return. The remaining three Hunters; flown by Zachariah, Lamba and Sinha saw a number of other patrolling Sabres, particularly in the vicinity of Chak Jhumra airfield, but returned safely to Halwara._
> 
> It is not known as to which PAF pilot actually shot down S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar, but in the face of evidence S/L Alam is given the credit, since he was flying CAP over Sargodha at that time and he reached the area first . The latter was stated by Fricker himself in his book, Battle for Pakistan. Also no other PAF Sabre pilot claimed to have encountered air combat with Hunters that morning.
> 
> S/L Alam's eyewitnesses have proved to be quite damaging, rather than helpful. Their version of the events, from how they saw it, were different from S/L Alam's version. Take the example of W/C (retd.) M. Arif Iqbal - a F-104 pilot - who was providing CAP (Combat Air Patrol) on September 7th. In an article titled, "Eye-witness to M.M. Alam's encounter with the IAF" he states*:*
> 
> _"Like me, Alam had also spotted only four Hunters. He decided to engage the one on the extreme right first. It was then that he spotted a fifth Hunter further to the right. He changed his mind and switched his attack to this new find. Barely a couple of seconds must have lapsed before Alam six guns were spitting fire and fury at this Hunter and I saw a ball of fire hit the ground. Alam pulled his guns on to the next Hunter. A few seconds later, another ball of fire hit the ground. Then the Indians tried a half-hearted defensive manoeuvre. Alam was almost overshooting an enemy aircraft but by then he had destroyed it - a third ball of fire and the pilot of this Hunter managed to eject from his aircraft before it crashed. Alam was once again in a better position to tackle the two remaining Hunters. It was only a matter of moments before these two also turned into balls of fire and crashed into the ground."_
> 
> S/L Alam clearly states that he saw four Hunters attacking the airfield and another two 1000 feet to his rear. He then claims that he forgot about the other four and engaged the pair behind him. However Iqbal states that S/L Alam spotted only a fifth Hunter in addition to the earlier four. Or did Iqbal mistake two Hunters for one? In fact, Iqbal goes a step further and states the fifth Hunter S/L Alam spotted was to the right of the four-ship Hunter formation. Quite a contrast to S/L Alam's claim of seeing two Hunters a 1000 ft. to his rear!
> 
> S/L Alam also states that he used GAR-8 Sidewinders instead of his guns, when he attacked the two aircraft. According to Iqbal however, S/L Alam used only his guns and does not mention Alam using his Sidewinders. If Iqbal is referring to the second encounter, again discrepancies arise from his story. S/L Alam claims to have seen five IAF Hunters in immaculate battle formation and once he entered gunfire range, the IAF Hunters called a break. Iqbal however states that only after two Hunters were destroyed, did the remaining Hunters in the formation call the break. Obviously both versions are contradictory to each other, because it is very easy to determine three aircraft from five - especially when they are in the air.
> 
> The third Hunter in the formation, according to Iqbal, also became a victim of S/L Alam's guns but the pilot managed to eject before the aircraft crashed. S/L Alam states exactly the opposite of Iqbal and says, "None of these four pilots ejected, and all of them were killed." S/L Alam had in fact claimed the pilot who ejected as his first kill. Iqbal concludes the air battle by saying that S/L Alam destroyed the remaining two Hunters in the formation, thus bringing his total kill rate in that sortie to five aircraft. S/L Alam also concurs with that figure. It appears that that is the only thing S/L Alam and Iqbal agree on, because everything else in Iqbal's story is remarkably different from S/L Alam's version. Iqbal proudly claims to have been an eyewitness to the S/L Alam encounter. The impression left is that of a deliberate attempt by Iqbal to support S/L Alam's tally.
> 
> There are a few contradicting claims originating from Battle for Pakistan - a book which praised the PAF's role in 1965 and put S/L Alam on a pedestal - in which Fricker states the following*:*
> 
> _Many pilots have scored several air victories in one sortie, and have equalled or exceeded Alam's claims of shooting down up to five enemy aircraft of superior performance within a few minutes. But few are likely to be able to match his record of destroying at least 3 opponents - Hawker Hunters of the Indian Air Force - within the space of somewhere around 30 seconds. Admittedly, confirmation of Alam's claims has been difficult to obtain, despite close-range observation of his encounter by several PAF pilots, and some gun camera evidence. Nearest of these observers was his wingman, Fg. Off. Masood Akhtar, who, protecting his leader's tail, clung like a leech throughout the action._
> 
> _Another section of PAF Sabres, led by Flt. Lt. Bhatti, was attempting to engage the Hunters but Alam (at that time a Squadron Leader) got there first. Flying top cover in an F-104A Starfighter was Sqn. Ldr. Arif Iqbal who, with intense frustration, watched the brief combat with admiration. On this basis, Alam was originally credited with five IAF Hunters destroyed, although the wreckage of only two could be found in Pakistani territory, within 2 or 3 miles of Sangla Hill railway station. The bodies of the pilots - one Hindu and one Sikh - was burnt beyond recognition. The area of the main engagement, however, some 30 miles east of Sargodha airfield, was only about 55nm inside the Pakistani border - some seven or eight minutes at jet speed._
> 
> What is unusual about Fricker's story is that he states "_at least three Hunters in 30 seconds_" when S/L Alam clearly stated in his account above, which is also from the *same* book, that he shot down four Hunters in that *same* time period. This clearly illustrates the fact that even Fricker found the PAF's claims difficult to digest. Fricker also believes that evidence for Alam's claim was "_difficult to obtain_", even when eye witnesses and gun camera evidence were present. However the disparity in the story of M. Arif Iqbal and S/L Alam is very difficult to explain.
> 
> Arriving at the gun camera evidence, which is displayed every September 7th in Pakistan to commemorate PAF Day, it appears that a crucial factor is overlooked. Did the gun camera pictures come from that particular battle? There is enough evidence to suggest that all is not what it seems to be. As Pushpindar Singh Chopra in his Vayu Aerospace Review article, 'Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest' says*:*
> 
> _Amongst earlier examples of clumsy propaganda was a photograph purporting to depict an Indian Hunter on fire but later identified as cut from a training film showing a Pakistani Sabre firing rockets against practice ground targets._
> 
> This indicates, that the gun camera evidence must have been most likely tampered with, to prove that S/L Alam had indeed shot down five Hunters! After all, gun camera evidence along with the names, would have sealed any doubts about the validity of S/L Alam's claim. The PAF indeed go to great lengths to back their claims! Moreover, the legitimacy of gun camera shots becomes questionable when it is considered that it depends on the word of the claimant that the evidence was from that particular circumstance. There is no way to check the date, time or particulars of where those particular pictures were taken. One of the camera gunshots of a Hunter was captured at an almost impossible angle, something only achieved if the Sabre was flying sideways and downwards. Gun camera pictures become important in the absence of any other form of evidence, like wrecks and/or captured aircrew. As these kills were near Sargodha, the PAF should not have had any problem in producing evidence in terms of wreckage/pilots. But Pakistan had problems providing evidence in terms of wreckage and pilots recovered too.
> 
> Fricker also states "_...only two could be found in Pakistani territory..._" and if S/L Alam shot down five Hunters, then why is it that only two wreckages were found? Fricker said that the engagement took place "_...only 55nm inside the Pakistani border..._" and by that he suggested that the other aircraft might have crashed in Indian territory. However this is contradicted by S/L Alam's version*:* "_These aircraft virtually blew up in front of me. None of these four pilots ejected, and all of them were killed._" This meant that all aircraft either blew up or crashed in front of his eyes and therefore in Pakistani territory, for nowhere did Alam claim that the battle took him into India. How and when this version transformed into a story about the Hunters crashing in Indian territory is not known.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This wreck of a Hunter that was shot down in Pakistan shows the serial number of the aircraft as BA-330. The pilot is not known.*
> It should be mentioned that S/L Alam's story was first narrated to Fricker during 1967, and Fricker bought out an article on this 'Ace in a Day' in the Air Enthusiast magazine. The initial article did not have the names of the Indian pilots claimed shot down by S/L Alam. When Pushpindar Singh, a noted Indian aviation historian sent a letter to the magazine disputing S/L Alam's claim, Fricker issued a rejoinder that amounted to shooting himself in the foot. Fricker stated that he had interviewed, separately and independently, three PAF pilots who witnessed the event in addition to Alam and their stories coincided almost precisely. Later, Fricker gave the names of five Indian pilots provided by the Pakistani sources that he claimed were victims of S/L Alam. The names given were S/L Kacker, S/L Devayya, S/L Bhagwat, F/L Guha and F/O Brar. Fricker's sarcastic taunts were that the Indian government would disown their own personnel in order to prove him wrong! When the obvious was pointed out regarding the timings of the raids and the types flown by individual pilots, Fricker was chastised. Seven years later when Battle for Pakistan was published, a slightly reformed Fricker dispelled claims of S/L Devayya and F/L Guha being Hunter pilots, admitted that S/L Kacker was lost to engine failure and that only S/L Bhagwat and F/O Brar were possible victims of S/L Alam.
> 
> Fricker tries to build some ground behind the claim of S/L Alam’s Hunter by referring to the IAF's list of casualties. Fricker states that the PAF has record of at least five IAF Hunter pilots who were killed on unspecified dates and circumstances. This was collated at the end of the war when the IAF released a list of officers killed in operations. The list contained the names of only those pilots who were killed over Indian territory. The IAF did not give any details on the dates and circumstances of how some of these officers were killed or from which unit they belonged to. The PAF identified certain names as those of Hunter pilots. The names of S/L A.K. Rawlley, F/O F.D. Bunsha, F/L T.K. Chaudhari and F/O G.S. Ahuja stood out prominently as they were known to be Hunter pilots. Though Fricker does not state this explicitly, he implies that among these five names are names of S/L Alam's victims as well as other victims of the air combat over Halwara in which the PAF claimed five Hunters shot down and destroyed. Fricker would hardly know, nor did many Indians for that matter, the circumstances of the deaths of the above pilots. Only in the 1990s did details of how some of the pilots who were killed emerged. None of them could be attributed to the kills of S/L Alam, either over Halwara (India) or over Sargodha (Pakistan).
> 
> Being carried away with extravagant claims does not stop with PAF pilots. It was extended through out the day, especially to the gunners of Sargodha who had a part in downing four aircraft, all Mysteres. Curiously the PAF, which was so enthusiastic in putting forward the five names of the pilots, is nowhere in the picture when questioned as to who the pilots were of the Mysteres claimed by F/L Hussain and F/L Malik, or by the gunners of Sargodha. A similar response is encountered with the Pakistani failure to show evidence in terms of wreckage of the six Mysteres supposed to have been shot down, where only evidence for two exists. However, even if the PAF got three of the five names wrong, then the pilots who participated in Strike No.4 - W/C Zachariah, F/L Lamba and F/L Sinha - should have all been dead, since S/L Alam himself stated none of the four pilots had ejected and they were all killed. However, F/L Lamba and F/L Sinha later became Air Marshals of the IAF and Zachariah is settled in the United Kingdom. Surely the IAF does not promote deceased personnel and neither does a person settle in the United Kingdom or any other foreign nation after he is dead! It is thus impossible that S/L Alam could have shot them down either. Then which were the five Hunter pilots, S/L Alam had shot? Or how many did he really shoot?
> 
> There is an amusing story, in Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P.C. Lal's book, My Years with the IAF, in which he states*:*
> 
> _The personal account of M.M. Sinha who took part in the 1965 War shows how misleading some of these claims and counterclaims can be. In 1969, both India And Pakistan had sent officers to the Joint Services Staff College at Latimer in England. One evening at the bar, a Pakistani officer attending the course was speaking to another Pakistani officer visiting him. Talking of old times with great satisfaction, he was recounting what happened at Sargodha in Pakistan on 7 September. He was talking of the raid, by Hunters and five of them were shot down by Sqn. Ldr. Alam alone as recounted in John Fricker's book. The Indian Officer on the course, M.M. Sinha, happened to overhear the statement. "It was as not so," he said "you got only two."_
> 
> _"Nonsense", retorted the Pakistani Officer, "How do you know exactly what happened?"_
> 
> _"I should know" said Sinha, "I took part in that raid. We lost only two - Fg. Off. Brar and Sqn. Ldr. Bhagwat. Sqn. Ldr. Kacker had to eject because his engine developed some trouble and it flamed out due to fuel starvation. He became a POW." There was an awkward silence. "The other members of that raid, or rather two raids, are all still alive. I can give you their addresses if you want to check. One of them Wg. Cdr. A.T.R.H. Zachariah, the former CO of No.7 Sqn has an English Wife and is right here in England."_
> 
> Lately, it seems that the list of the five pilots have been mysteriously changed from S/L Devayya to S/L Rawlley - popularly also known as Peter. S/L Devayya was a Mystere pilot, while S/L Rawlley was a Hunter pilot and it is understandable why the PAF changed the names to keep with the story of only Hunters being shot down by Alam on September 7th. However, in an attempt to keep this absurd claim alive, the PAF missed a very big point. Although S/L Rawlley did get into an air battle with S/L Alam, it occurred on September 6th, a day earlier, in Halwara - 200 miles away from Sargodha! Even Air Chief Marshal (retd.) P.C. Lal in his book - My Years in the IAF stated that S/L Rawlley was killed on September 6th. The most interesting source, however, comes from Pakistan itself. In a September 1998 issue of Defence Journal - a Pakistani defence magazine - an article titled, Sqn. Ldr. Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafiqui, stated the following*:*
> 
> _On the evening of 6th September 1965, an ill-fated formation of three aircraft took off from Sargodha for a raid on Halwara airfield, one of the three, that had been singled out for a pre-emptive strike. Led by Sqn. Ldr. Rafiqui, with Flt. Lt. Cecil Chaudhry as No.2 and Flt. Lt. Yunus Hussain as No.3, the formation hurtled across into enemy territory in fast fading light. Sqn. Ldr. M.M. Alam's formation, also of three aircraft, which had taken-off ten minutes earlier, was returning after an abortive raid on Adampur. They had been bounced by four Hunters, themselves proceeding on a mission against Pak Army formations. Rafiqui was warned by Alam's section to watch out for Hunters in the area. At Halwara, IAF's No.7 Squadron equipped with Hunters had flown four strikes during the day. These were armed reconnaissance missions, which had had little success in finding worthwhile targets. The fourth and last strike for the day was on its way to the precincts of Lahore, when it had encountered Alam's formation near Taran Taran. In that engagement Sqn. Ldr. Peter Rawlley's Hunter impacted the ground as he did a defensive break at very low level, with Alam firing at him from stern._
> 
> The authors of Fiza'ya further explain theSeptember 6th incident*:*
> 
> _Very oddly, though Alam is credited with two Hunters in the Adampur attack on September 6th, the previous day, he himself is exceptionally circumspect about the incident. He fired on one Hunter and saw him go into the ground in flames but says "*...I am not certain whether I hit him or not,*" indicating that one of his other pilots might be responsible. While exiting he took a long shot at a Hunter. "*...I think I registered hits - I only saw smoke coming out, but no flames.*" Here he is not even claiming certain damage, leave alone the aircraft._
> 
> While, the first Hunter, S/L Alam can claim to have destroyed, the second Hunter he *assumes* that he had shot it down. It is quite a mystery as to how the second kill on September 6th, could be added to S/L Alam's score.
> 
> S/L Alam's last battle, according to the PAF, occurred on September 16th near Halwara AFB. In this air battle, S/L Alam claims to have shot down two Hunters and describes what happened. However, one of S/L Alam's claimed victims - then F/L P.S. Pingale - narrates his side of the story as well. Jon Guttman, in a 1998 Aviation History article titled, 'Pakistan's Sabre Ace' gives S/L Alam's and F/L Pingale's version of the events*:*
> 
> _"They were flying very fast," Alam reported afterward. "We were doing about Mach .8, but they must have been diving at around Mach .95 or more. They couldn't stay in our turn, so they zoomed up in a yo-yo manoeuvre. When I reversed back they both pulled through from there, and we dived behind them until at 13-14,000 feet they separated in a vertical break." Alam went after the climbing Hunter and engaged it at about 20,000 feet. His first burst of gunfire missed, but his second scored a hit. "At the third burst, he became a ball of flame," Alam said, "so I turned back and looked for my wingman....Then suddenly I lost all radio contact with him, although I could see him in the distance and I saw the Hunter break away from him. "The Hunter saw me," Alam continued, "and although he was close to his base, he didn't want to accept combat. He turned away from me and rapidly accelerated rapidly in a dive, although I followed as closely as possible behind him. I knew we were approaching close to the airfield of Halwara and suspected a trap, but then he did a loose sort of a roll to clear his tail, so he had obviously lost me. I had dived a good 5-6000 feet below him, at about Mach .94-.95, and when I felt that he was slowing down, I fired a Sidewinder at him. There was something wrong with this missile, however as it turned, through about 90 degrees soon after its release."_
> 
> _"I continued diving after him, however, and then released my second Sidewinder which scored a hit on his right wing root. As it began to smoke, I saw that we were just crossing the Halwara Canal and as I was well inside Indian territory and getting a bit short of fuel, I immediately half-rolled and dived down to treetop level. When I hit the border between India and Pakistan, I climbed up to conserve fuel, feeling very miserable at having lost my No.2."_
> 
> _Although Alam had not seen the second Hunter crash, the PAF credited him with both planes, for his eighth and ninth victories of the war. As in the earlier cases, one of Alam's victims survived to give his own description of the fight. When the PAF F-86s were reported, Flying Officers Prakash S. Pingale and F. Dara Bunsha of No.7 Squadron scrambled up from Halwara. Pingale reported that he got behind the first Sabre, which turned south, then spotted the second, "at about 4 o'clock at a range of 1,000 yards and about to fire on us." He then told Bunsha to "go for Sabre No.1," while he engaged the other. "Sabre No.2 attempted to shake me off by pulling up into the sun," Pingale said. "He also jettisoned his external loads and pulled up steeply as a last-ditch maneuver to make me overshoot him, perhaps by the use of leading edge slats....I was able to open fire at about 3000-4000 yards. The aircraft literally exploded in front of me." At that point, Pingale saw Bunsha engaging in scissors manoeuvres with Alam's F-86. He radioed a warning to Bunsha that the Sabre held the advantage in such a fight. But Bunsha was going down in flames by the time he intervened._
> 
> _"Seeing my coming towards him, Sabre No.1 left my No.2 and turned towards me," Pingale continued. "As we crossed head-in, he opened fire on me," Pingale continued. "As we crossed head-on, he opened fire on me....As I reversed to engage Sabre No.1 in 1-vs-1 combat, to my utter dismay I found that instead of fighting with me he had half-rolled and was speedily trying to get away in a vertical dive. I attempted to close in but lost contact with Sabre No.1 because I blacked out due to excessive g (around 8-10 as recorded by my g-meter)." As he returned to Halwara, Pingale could not recall seeing his Pakistani opponent ever fire a missile at him, but he later admitted that his perceptions were somewhat impaired by the pain of a slight back injury he had sustained after being hit by ground fire and bailing out a few days earlier, aggravated by the effects of his high-g turn._
> 
> Entirely two different stories arise from both men - S/L Alam and F/L Pingale. There is no doubt that F/O Farokh Dara Bunsha became a victim of S/L Alam's guns, But whether F/L Pingale himself became a victim of S/L Alam's guns is certainly debatable. S/L Alam claims that the first Sidewinder he fired malfunctioned, and the second hit F/L Pingale's Hunter on the wing root. S/L Alam however did not stay for long to confirm his second kill, as he realised he was deep in Indian territory. F/L Pingale on the other hand, had returned safely to Halwara which might suggest that he landed back at base. What is of greater significance is that the PAF adds F/L Pingale's kill to S/L Alam's list, when no evidence of any kind - eyewitness, gun camera, etc. - was ever present.
> 
> The PAF claimed a total of nine confirmed kills for S/L Alam in the 1965 air war. They were respectively, according to the PAF, two on September 6th, five on September 7th and two more on September 16th. However with the damning evidence presented above, his claims stand no ground. Given the modesty of his claims for September 6th and the extravagance of his claims for September 7th, S/L Alam is certainly a complex personality. Surprisingly, the most contradicting claim comes from the PAF. The authors in Fiza'ya say, "_Alam's citation for the Sitara-e-Jurat and Bar, cites him as shooting down four Hunters on September 7th and two on September 6th._" Thus, even the PAF in 1965, did not claim five Hunters over Sargodha on September 7th! When and why the number changed to five, is not known. Also there is no mention of the September 16th incident in the citation! This it appears, was added later on.
> 
> Jon Guttman, in an Aviation History article titled, 'Pakistan's Sabre Ace' states that Sqn. Ldr. Alam's professional relationship with the Pakistan Air Force suffered after the 1965 war due to certain reasons. The following are excerpts from that article;
> 
> _Alam commanded No.11 Squadron until April 1966. In November 1967, he was promoted to Wing Commander, given the command of No.5 Squadron and charged with overseeing the introduction of the newly imported Dassault Mirage IIIEP into that unit. At about that time, however, Alam began to have problems as a result of professional jealousies and personal resentments among fellow PAF officers. For one thing, there were some accusations that while Alam was a virtuoso pilot, his leadership qualities at the senior officer level left something much to be desired. As Pakistan's first ace, much was expected of him after the war, and his more limited administrative abilities may have suffered further under the pressure of such expectations._
> 
> _Alam was also reappraising his lifestyle, reaching the conclusion that the abandonment of traditional Islamic values by the PAF constituted a betrayal of the people it served. The most obvious symbol of that compromise of values was the consumption of alcohol. Alam not only quit drinking but also began trying to persuade his colleagues to banish alcohol from the officers' mess. Inevitably, Alam's growing zeal rubbed many PAF officers - a good many of whim were his superiors - the wrong way._
> 
> _In 1969, Alam attended the staff college, but he was removed from the course in 1970 under the absurd pretext that he could not read and write. In May, he was relieved of command of No.5 Squadron - which was given to Wing Commander Hakimullah Khan - and played no active role in the Indo-Pak War of December 1971. Alam was given command of No.26 Squadron in January 1972 but lost it just two months later._
> 
> It must have been surely insulting for S/L Alam to have been removed from staff college in 1970 on the basis that he could not read or write! Even more damaging was his non-active role in 1971, when just six years earlier in 1965, he was on the top of the PAF. To be then removed from command of No.26 Squadron just two months after he got it in 1972, must have surely hurt his ego deeply. Alam retired as an Air Commodore in March 1982 and lives a secluded lifestyle in Karachi. He has become a devout Muslim, being often described as a mullah who spends his time praying and forecasting condemnation to hell for the PAF Officers who are less devout!
> 
> Now why the Pakistan Air Force concocted this incredible story is not known. As Pushpinder Singh Chopra in his Vayu Aerospace Review article, 'Laying the Sargodha Ghost to Rest' states, "The people of Pakistan had to be re-assured that their Air Force's super image carefully cultivated over the years, was restored by examples of daring-do and glory." In Fiza'ya, the authors state that while the PAF's 1982 History accepts Alam's story as told by Fricker, the PAF's 1988 History is surprisingly silent about the names. In fact, the PAF 1988 History does not even list the names of the five IAF pilots. The truth lies with Senior Officers of the Pakistan Air Force and it would be really sorry if they believed their own myths.
> 
> The PAF and Pakistanis in general have led the world to believe that Alam did indeed shoot down five IAF Hunters on September 7th. However, if it wasn't for the efforts of Pushpinder Singh Chopra and others, Alam's nonsensical claim of being Pakistan's top air ace would have crawled its way as an unprecedented feat into the annals of jet warfare. However, it is nothing more than one of the PAF's numerous unsubstantiated claims!
> 
> 
> An article that blasts alam's claims.​


 

Air/Cdre. Sajjad _"Nosy"_ Haider and Air/Cdre. Kaiser _"Aeronaut"_ Tufail have also dealt with the _FABLE _of M.M.Alam and his "claimed" Kills. And found the "leaks" contained therein!


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## Jf Thunder

Capt.Popeye said:


> Air/Cdre. Sajjad _"Nosy"_ Haider and Air/Cdre. Kaiser _"Aeronaut"_ Tufail have also dealt with the _FABLE _of M.M.Alam and his "claimed" Kills. And found the "leaks" contained therein!


dude, instaed of trying to make our TRUE claims false why dont you bring forth your own achievements every one knows that we mopped the floor with your Air Force in 1965.


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## Alif

asad71 said:


> Don't forget Saiful Azam of BAF/PAF who has shot down both Israeli as well as Indian fighters in dog-fight. He is a product of PAF Public School,Sargodha which produces most air marshals, air chiefs and generals for Pakistan


TY! I was about to state that down if not mentioned already. He is also one of the 22 "living Eagles" in the world and the pilot who shot down the most IDAF kills.

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## theprofessor

M M Alam in my humble opinion is the best fighter pilot of all time, the ace of aces


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## NP-complete

For me the number of kills has to decide that who was the best fighter pilot. So my answer naturally comes from that titanic struggle called WW2.

This lad, *Erich Hartmann,* shot down *352 *enemy aircrafts.




Erich Hartmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His unit, *JG 52*, shot down more than *10,000* aircraft during ww2. 
Jagdgeschwader 52 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## najeeb ahmed

Saif-ul-Azam was the great pilot...


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## Desertfalcon

My vote would be for _Hans_-_Joachim Marseille_. There were other German aces with a higher kill count, but Marseille's was the highest against Western fighters; French, British, American. He scored *158* kills, all against western flown aircraft in an amazingly short period of time, before his untimely death. He was also a first class _bon vivant_, cut-up, ladies man, and one of the many Luftwaffe heroes who despised the Nazi's, (As did Galland, "Macky" Steinhoff, Molders, etc). A gallant warrior, news of his accidental death even elicited both relief but sadness among those he fought.

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## Aepsilons

*Lieutenant Hiroyoshi Nishizawa:*

*



*

*



*

It is possible that Nishizawa was the most successful Japanese fighter ace of the war; he personally claimed to have had *87 aerial victories* at the time of his death.

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## rana shamsher

i thought M.M Alam.. Legend.


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## Mehrdad1111

prä- jet time: Erich Hatrmann from Germany with 352 codfirmed kills.

jet-time: Giora Epstein from israel with 17 confirmed kills.


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## simple Brain

I believe Hans Ulrich Rudel was the greatest Pilot of all times, Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, 70 landing craft, nine aircraft, four armored trains, several bridges, a destroyer, two cruisers, and the Soviet battleship Marat. The most highly decorated German serviceman of the war, Rudel was one of only 27 military men to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, and the only person to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds Germany's highest military decoration at the time.

“Only he is lost who gives himself up for lost”
—Hans-Ulrich Rudel


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## osama zafar

*Muhammad Mahmood Alam* (Urdu: محمد محمود عالم‎) (known as "M.M. Alam"; born *Muhammad Mahmud Alam*; 6 July 1935 – 18 March 2013) was[2] a Pakistani fighter pilot, North American F-86 SabreFlying aceand one-star general who served with the Pakistan Air Force. Squadron Leader Muhammad Mahmud Alam, Commander of No 11 Squadron, was already a notable leader and highly experienced pilot in 1965, when he was awarded the Sitara-e-Jurat (_"The star of courage"_), a Pakistanimilitary decoration, for his actions during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. In earning his decorations, Alam downed five Indian aircraft in less than a minute – the first four within 30 seconds – establishing a world record. He also excelled in gunnery competition, a skill that without a doubt contributed greatly to his becoming the first and the only jet ace in one mission.


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## The Sandman

Erich Hartmann aka Bubi of course but after him there are many other best pilots too but *most of them *are Germans for example Red baron, Gunther Rall, Nowotny, Marseille, Boelcke
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html here is a complete list of his kills


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## A.P. Richelieu

Luke Skywalker, of course...
Nothing beats destroying a Death Star.
At least he wins the fictional class.

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## kellytailor

Well, I'm not good at history. So I don't know ;( But Custom-Essays-Online always offers originla essays on history


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## Desertfalcon

DesertFox97 said:


> Erich Hartmann aka Bubi of course


Hartmann was excellent, no doubt, but all his kills were against a Red Air Force that was of very poor quality until late in the war, having been savagely purged and their moral wrecked, by Stalin. Even Hartmann admitted that a large amount of his kills was in shooting down green Russian pilots with very little training. It's why I chose Marseille over him.


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## Maarkhoor

*Erich Alfred Hartmann* (19 April 1922 – 20 September 1993)


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## untitled

Desertfalcon said:


> Hartmann was excellent, no doubt, but all his kills were against a Red Air Force that was of very poor quality until late ....


 Sir he had shot down quite a few P-51 Mustangs flown by American pilots


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## Maarkhoor

*Manfred von Richthofen*


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## Desertfalcon

persona_non_grata said:


> Sir he had shot down quite a few P-51 Mustangs flown by American pilots


Seven, to be exact. As I said, he was excellent, but Marseille shot down 158 American, British, French fighters.


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## The Sandman

Desertfalcon said:


> Marseille


Well yes that's a completely different story but my fav is still Hartmann even if your enemies are noobs (only in early years of war btw) shooting down 350 aircraft is a marvelous achievement. Not only that but he never actually got captured or shot down.

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## A.P. Richelieu

One guy that deserves mentioning is George Beurling.
Canadian Pilot which perfected deflection shooting.
Some of his early kills were rejected initially,
because the gun cameras showed nothing.
He was pointing his nose elsewhere, and the cameras stopped
before the prey entered its view.

Shot down 27 Axis planes in just two weeks over Malta.
At this rate, it would be 700 in a Year.

He was known to detect planes at a much longer range than fellow pilots 
and the reason was that he learned to scan over the sky
instead of focusing. This is now standard practise.

His most important feat was when he shot down a fighter at 700 meters range,
which is believed to be the longest range kill of WW2.

George Beurling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Jamwal's

osama zafar said:


> *Muhammad Mahmood Alam* (Urdu: محمد محمود عالم‎) (known as "M.M. Alam"; born *Muhammad Mahmud Alam*; 6 July 1935 – 18 March 2013) was[2] a Pakistani fighter pilot, North American F-86 SabreFlying aceand one-star general who served with the Pakistan Air Force. Squadron Leader Muhammad Mahmud Alam, Commander of No 11 Squadron, was already a notable leader and highly experienced pilot in 1965, when he was awarded the Sitara-e-Jurat (_"The star of courage"_), a Pakistanimilitary decoration, for his actions during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. In earning his decorations, Alam downed five Indian aircraft in less than a minute – the first four within 30 seconds – establishing a world record. He also excelled in gunnery competition, a skill that without a doubt contributed greatly to his becoming the first and the only jet ace in one mission.


Can You tell me the names of the pilots shot down by M M Alam ?

Anything besides Wiki.


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## Georg

The best fighter pilot of all time was Hans Joachim Marseille..

Even Erich Hartmann claimed this...

Hans Joachim Marseille achived some astonishing records..
On 3. June 1942 he attacked allone 16 P-40, he shoot down 6... 5 of them in 6 Minutes, more amazing is that 3 of the 5 he downed in 6minutes were acess (Robin Pare, Cecil Golding and Andre Botha)
At his best day(1. September 1942) he shoot down 17 enemy aircraft ..8 of the 17 in 10minutes. British historyan did not belive this number and claimed that day no planes were shoot down ...latest research tell a different story, that day the brits lost way more than 17 fighter exactly in the area Marseilles claimed his victorys.

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## war&peace

MM Alam was the best from PAF....rest were normal... MM Alam is the ACE
and then look at this girl

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## The Sandman

Obv Erich Hartmann have the most kills ever was never shot down by enemy after him there are dozens or should i say hundreds of German pilots from both WW1 & WW2.


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## Mohammed Shamsul Haq

shr_bwp said:


> ???????????
> 
> What makes you say that???????


FOR ONCE GET YOUR HEADS & RECORDS STRAIGHT. I am the famous Shams . I shot 4 not 3 , I left in 1976 to fly in PIA for 10 years, moved to USA & flew Airlines, Corporate & Saudi Royals. 
Mohammad Shamsul Haq sj
changed my name to 
SHAMS A. CHOHAAN (still SJ)
Sept 1st. 2018
schohaan@gmail.com

Reactions: Like Like:
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## comrade uraa

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Rafiqui was shot down by and average indian pilot---.
> 
> The indian pilot made the move to get behind Rafiqui and shot him----if Rafiqui was that great---it would not have happened.
> 
> It is stated that Rafiqui's guns got jammed---so instead of saving his plane and a million dollar pilot----he chose to hang around faking tail chases---.
> 
> He broke the cardinal rule----stayed in the battlefield when his aircraft was not battle worthy---.
> 
> You can't build a battleship in the middle of a short war---you cannot produce a superstar pilot in two weeks.
> 
> I want to know what did he get out of it by hanging around----after his guns jammed---he was pretty much neutralized within 30 seconds maybe 45. So---what did he do?


he didnt run and away and stayed as a moral support for his fellows!


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## Maxpane

Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafiqui - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › Sarfar...

*Sqn Ldr Sarfaraz Ahmad Rafiqui*
*(Hilal-i-Jurat and Sitara-i-Jurat)*

On 6 September, 1965, Squadron Leader Sarfaraz Ahmad Rafiqui led a formation of 3 F-86 aircraft on a strike against Halwaraairfield. The formation was intercepted by about 10 Hunter aircraft out of which Squadron Leader Rafiqui accounted for one in the first few seconds. But then his guns jammed due to a defect and stopped firing. However, Rafiqui refused to leave the battle area which he would have been perfectly justified to do; instead he ordered his No. 2 to take over as leader and continue the engagement while he tried to give the formation as much protection as was possible with an unarmed aircraft. This called on the part of Squadron Leader Rafiqui. The end for him was never in doubt but he chose to disregard it and, in the process, his aircraft was shot down and he was killed but not before enabling his formation to shoot down 3 more Hunter aircraft. Rafiqui’s conduct was clearly beyond the call of duty and conformed to the highest traditions of leadership and bravery in battle against overwhelming odds. For this and his earlier exploits, he is awarded Hilal-i-Jurat and Sitara-i-Jurat.


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## PakSword

Maxpane said:


> Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafiqui - Wikipedia
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › Sarfar...
> 
> *Sqn Ldr Sarfaraz Ahmad Rafiqui
> (Hilal-i-Jurat and Sitara-i-Jurat)*
> 
> On 6 September, 1965, Squadron Leader Sarfaraz Ahmad Rafiqui led a formation of 3 F-86 aircraft on a strike against Halwaraairfield. The formation was intercepted by about 10 Hunter aircraft out of which Squadron Leader Rafiqui accounted for one in the first few seconds. But then his guns jammed due to a defect and stopped firing. However, Rafiqui refused to leave the battle area which he would have been perfectly justified to do; instead he ordered his No. 2 to take over as leader and continue the engagement while he tried to give the formation as much protection as was possible with an unarmed aircraft. This called on the part of Squadron Leader Rafiqui. The end for him was never in doubt but he chose to disregard it and, in the process, his aircraft was shot down and he was killed but not before enabling his formation to shoot down 3 more Hunter aircraft. Rafiqui’s conduct was clearly beyond the call of duty and conformed to the highest traditions of leadership and bravery in battle against overwhelming odds. For this and his earlier exploits, he is awarded Hilal-i-Jurat and Sitara-i-Jurat.


He is one, who I always believe should have been awarded with Nishaan e HAidar..


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## LuCiFeR_DeCoY




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## DejanSRB

From my POV, it is Hans Ulrich Rudel.


Rudel flew 500 missions on the Eastern Front between 1940 and 1942, which is god damned impressive, especially when you consider that U.S. bomber pilots were usually allowed to go home after completing 25 missions without dying (an incredibly rare achievement in its own right). The German hurricane of bombicide was awarded the Knight's Cross a couple times (including once when he was given the award by The Red Baron's cousin), and returned home with enough awards and honors to snap a camel in half. He was made an instructor at a German flight school, and asked to train new recruits in how to be awesome at flying Stukas, but Rudel got bored of that shit pretty quickly and requested to return to the battlefield. He was made squadron commander, flew 500 more missions between 1942 and '43, killed twelve T-34 tanks in one day during the Battle of Kursk, and made such a name for himself as a destroyer of Russian shit that Stalin himself put a huge bounty out on Rudel's head.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/rudel.html


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## A.P. Richelieu

Susanna Viljanen


Following 39 people. Asked 4 questions. Wrote 11170 answers.




www.quora.com





Sgt Maj Ilmari Juutilainen (1914–1999), Finnish Air Force. He scored a total of 94 victories on 437 missions 1939–1944. The reason why I selected him as the best was that a) he was never shot down himself b) he never received a single bullet hole in his aircraft in air combat and c) he never lost a wingman in combat.





Ilmari Juutilainen was born in Lieksa, Finland. He joined the Finnish Air Force as a conscript mechanic in 1932. After his tour of duty, he applied to aviator training, and gained his fighter pilot’s wings in 1935 as Sergeant, flying Gloster Gamecocks (GA). He was promoted as Senior Sergeant in 1937, now flying Fokker D.XXI (FR), his unit being Lentolaivue 24 (LeLv 24).





He began scoring in December 1939, Winter War, and he scored 2.1666 victories on FR. He remained in service during the Interim Peace, and when the hostilities erupted again in June 1941, he began to score again, this time on Brewster 239 (BW). He became an ace in late June 1941.





SSGT Juutilainen and BW-364 in winter 1941–1942. BW-364 is possibly the highest scoring airframe (41 victories) ever. The white bars on fin are “scalps”, victory markings.

He scored a total of 36 victories on BW. When the FinnAF began to receive Messerschmitt Bf 109G (MT) in 1943, Juutilainen was one of the aviators selected to a newly-founded “ace squadron”, LeLv 34.

Juutilainen quickly found MT as an able mount, and his scores increased rapidly. His initial personal mount was MT-222, on which he scored 16 victories.





In March 1944, the Bf 109 G-2 gear was transferred to Juutilainen’s old unit, LeLv 24, and LeLv 34 received new Bf 109G-6 equipment. He scored a total of 30 victories during the Soviet Summer Offensive May to July 1944, most on MT-457.





His great day was 30 July 1944, when he scored six victories on one single flight. He scored his last victory on 3 September 1944, a day before the armistice. It was also the last victory in the Continuation War.

He resigned the Air Force service after the war, but kept his pilot’s skills honed, and flew for the last time in 1997. He received the Mannerheim Cross, the highest Finnish military decoration, twice; in 1942 and 1944.

What were makings of the highest scoring non-German ace?

Juutilainen bore high intelligence and an uncanny ability on decision-making. It is said there are old fighter pilots and bold fighter pilots, but no old bold fighter pilots - but he was an exception. He was incredibly courageous - willing to take risks, but never reckless risks.

Having served as a mechanic, he had excellent knowledge of various aircraft, what they could do, and what they couldn’t do. He used this knowledge as his asset, and used this knowledge on fighting the Soviet aircraft. He was an excellent aerobatic, and would often do uncanny manoeuvres (skids, snap rolls, falling leaves and like) in the combat. He was also an excellent huntsman, and knew how to take lead with his gunsight.

But most of all, he was a leader of humans. He often tutored younger pilots, and he never lost a wingman.

I have had the honour to meet him in person. He was a true gentleman.


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