# History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?



## Viet

*History of Vietnam or 
What do you want to know about Vietnam?*



Thread has been opened as there are increasing complaints by other members due to off-topic comments in numerous non-Vietnam related threads. Hope on fruitful discussions and contributions. All comments except insult are welcome.

@djsjs, I believe you wanted to see this thread a year ago.

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## INDIC

I want to know the similarity and differences between Vietnamese with Southern Hans and the Northern Hans people.


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## Viet

INDIC said:


> I want to know the similarity and differences between Vietnamese with Southern Hans and the Northern Hans people.


We are a family. 

The Viets and Southern Han´s are much closer in terms of look than to the Northern Han´s. Nevertherless we all share the same cultures and custom. Many Viets consider the Southern Hans (Cantonese) as their true brothers and sisters as we both lived a country called NamViet in ancient times.

One of the major differences between the Viets and the Han´s lies the position of women in the society. Traditionally Viets women have more say and right than their sisters in China.


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## Viet

Actually the modern Vietnam history began with the battle of bach dang river in 938 AD. In that year the Vietnamese general Ngo Quyen defeated the invading forces of the Southern Han and put an end to centuries of Chinese imperial domination in Vietnam.


_Battle of B_

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## Tanja

As far as I know, the battle of Ngo Qyuen had a very good tactics that he used the bamboo sticks, placed them under the river and used the tides to hide it. When Southern Han came, they did not notice the bamboo sticks under the river because it was tide time. When tide time ended, the bamboo sticks appeared, destroyed their ships. 
Something like that  I was told by a vietnamese tour guide.

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## Viet

Tanja said:


> As far as I know, the battle of Ngo Qyuen had a very good tactics that he used the bamboo sticks, placed them under the river and used the tides to hide it. When Southern Han came, they did not notice the bamboo sticks under the river because it was tide time.
> 
> When tide time ended, the bamboo sticks appeared, destroyed their ships.
> Something like that  I was told by a vietnamese tour guide.


Not bamboo sticks, but Ngo Quyen let implanting wooden poles with iron tips in the river. 






_Several weapons used in Bach Dang battle of 938 (VN army museum)_







_Spikes used to prevent the enemy from sailing away in Bach Dang at low tide (VN army museum)_

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## beijingwalker

INDIC said:


> I want to know the similarity and differences between Vietnamese with Southern Hans and the Northern Hans people.


We look different
Vietnamese:





Chinese:

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## DESERT FIGHTER

I like how viets screwed the french n the spirit to fight against the americans... n hate the "love you long time GI" bs dialogue from vietnam war movies...


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## Snomannen

The sound of Vietnamese language is so bad, it always hurt my head when I am listening Vietnamese people speaking. It is even as bad as Cantonese.

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## beijingwalker

> Nam Viet, (Vietnamese), Chinese (Wade-Giles romanization) Nan Yüeh or (Pinyin) Nan Yue, ancient kingdom occupying much of what is now northern Vietnam and the southern Chinese provinces of Kwangtung and Kwangsi.
> 
> The kingdom was formed in 207 bce, during the breakup of the Ch&#8217;in dynasty (221&#8211;206 bce), when the Ch&#8217;in governor of Yüeh (now Kwangtung and Kwangsi provinces) declared his territory independent. His son Chao T&#8217;o (Trieu Da) expanded the new kingdom southward, incorporating the Red River delta and the area as far south as Da Nang.

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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> We look different


you are right...Hanoier and Shanghai for example






_Viet girl_






_Chinese girl_

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> The sound of *Vietnamese language *is so bad, it always hurt my head when I am listening Vietnamese people speaking. It is even as bad as Cantonese.


You should listen to French instead, one of most beautiful languages of the world.

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## EastSea

> The Kingdom of Nanyue originally comprised the Qin commanderies of Nanhai, Guilin, and Xiang. After 179 BC, Zhao Tuo persuaded Minyue, Yelang, Tongshi, and other areas to submit to Nanyue rule, but they were not strictly under Nanyue control. After the Western Han Dynasty defeated Nanyue, its territory was divided into the seven commanderies of Nanhai, Cangwu, Yulin, Hepu, Jiaoche, Jiuzhen, and Rinan. It was traditionally believed that the Qin conquest of the southern regions included the northern half of Vietnam, and that this area was also under Nanyue control. However, scholars have recently stated that the Qin likely never conquered territory in what is now Vietnam, and that Chinese domination there was first accomplished by the Nanyue themselves.[18]


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> You should listen to French instead, one of most beautiful languages of the world.



If French and English inflected the pronunciation of HK Cantonese and Vietnamese back in those days, that will be so good.

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## EastSea

INDIC said:


> I want to know the similarity and differences between Vietnamese with Southern Hans and the Northern Hans people.





beijingwalker said:


> We look different



It's correct.



> The Vietnamese people or the Kinh people are an *Austroasiatic ethnic group* originating from present-day northern Vietnam and southern China. They are the majority ethnic group of Vietnam, comprising 86% of the population as of the 1999 census, and are officially known as Kinh to distinguish them from other ethnic groups in Vietnam. The earliest recorded name for the ancient Vietnamese people appears as "L&#7841;c".


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## Krueger

beijingwalker said:


> We look different
> Vietnamese:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese:


Vietnamese don't have to do this to maintain good posture to their armies


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## beijingwalker

No pain,no gain.

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## walle990

that's why Viet military parades cant be compared to the the chinese parades. 

The chicks in the chinese parades are much hotter.

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## Fattyacids

INDIC said:


> I want to know the similarity and differences between Vietnamese with Southern Hans and the Northern Hans people.



Only Northern Vietnamese share similarities with Southern Chinese. The Southern Chinese are themselves from the North. 
Zhao Tuo, a Han Chinese general from Qin dynasty was sent to govern Southern China. He later created the kingdom of NanYue spanning from the southern most part of Guangzhou to North Vietnam. Vietnamese historians considered him to be the first emperor of Vietnam, but NanYue is a Chinese kingdom.

South Vietnam is completely different. The people are more khmer like.

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## djsjs

vietnam was developing fast in the past decades.we can predict that in several decades vietnam would be a regional power of southeast asia ,both in econemy and military. so my question is when will Vietnamese invade Laos Kampuchea Thailand,what's the detail plan do you guys think is the best? 
i wish vietnamese answer my questions honestly. no need to cover your real thought,as we Chinese know your embitions too well.

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## Developereo

Tanja said:


> As far as I know, the battle of Ngo Qyuen had a very good tactics that he used the bamboo sticks, placed them under the river and used the tides to hide it. When Southern Han came, they did not notice the bamboo sticks under the river because it was tide time. When tide time ended, the bamboo sticks appeared, destroyed their ships.
> Something like that  I was told by a vietnamese tour guide.



A early naval version of the Cu Chi tunnels in the Tet Offensive!

Smart move.

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## beijingwalker

walle990 said:


> that's why Viet military parades cant be compared to the the chinese parades.
> 
> The chicks in the chinese parades are much hotter.



from group photos,not individual model photos ,you can see the clear difference in people's facial features and complexion.

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## Viet

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I like how viets screwed the french n the spirit to fight against the americans... n hate the "love you long time GI" bs dialogue from vietnam war movies...


discover your enemy´s strength and weakness, be smart and disciplined on battlefields...actually there is no secrets.



Fattyacids said:


> Only *Northern Vietnamese* share similarities with Southern Chinese. The Southern Chinese are themselves from the North.
> Zhao Tuo, a Han Chinese general from Qin dynasty was sent to govern Southern China. He later created the kingdom of NanYue spanning from the southern most part of Guangzhou to North Vietnam. Vietnamese historians considered him to be the first emperor of Vietnam, but NanYue is a Chinese kingdom.
> 
> *South Vietnam* is completely different. The people are more khmer like.


you are right. Some southern Vietnamese are mixed with Chams and Khmers, no surprise giving the neighborhood, while Northern Vietnamese are mixed with Southern Chinese.

Again NanYue was not a Chinese kingdom.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> discover your enemy´s strength and weakness, be smart and disciplined on battlefields...actually there is no secrets.
> 
> 
> you are right. Some southern Vietnamese are mixed with Chams and Khmers, no surprise giving the neighborhood, while Northern Vietnamese are mixed with Southern Chinese.
> 
> Again NanYue was not a Chinese kingdom.



But hoooooow?

Why noooooot.


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## beijingwalker

Viet said:


> discover your enemy´s strength and weakness, be smart and disciplined on battlefields...actually there is no secrets.
> 
> 
> you are right. Some southern Vietnamese are mixed with Chams and Khmers, no surprise giving the neighborhood, while Northern Vietnamese are mixed with Southern Chinese.
> 
> Again NanYue was not a Chinese kingdom.



It was founded by a Chinese,how come it was not a Chinese Kingdom?

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## Viet

djsjs said:


> vietnam was developing fast in the past decades.we can predict that in several decades vietnam would be a* regional power* of southeast asia ,both in econemy and military.
> so my question is when will Vietnamese invade Laos Kampuchea Thailand,what's the detail plan do you guys think is the best?
> i wish vietnamese answer my questions honestly. no need to cover your real thought,as we Chinese know your embitions too well.


LOL...Do you know why Vietnam was the most powerful country in SE Asia, feared by neighbors? because we learned a lot from China, including gunpowder weapons. Without the constant threats and invasions from China, Vietnam would be much larger than today, that is for sure.

But that is history. Today, we all want to live in peace, if any just to conquer the markets for our products.

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## Viet

walle990 said:


> that's why Viet military parades cant be compared to the the chinese parades.
> The chicks in the chinese parades are much hotter.


The difference is while Viets women fight on battlefields, their sisters in China fight how to look beautiful.


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## EastSea

Fattyacids said:


> Only Northern Vietnamese share similarities with Southern Chinese. The Southern Chinese are themselves from the North.
> Zhao Tuo, a Han Chinese general from Qin dynasty was sent to govern Southern China. He later created the kingdom of NanYue spanning from the southern most part of Guangzhou to North Vietnam. Vietnamese historians considered him to be the first emperor of Vietnam, but NanYue is a Chinese kingdom.
> 
> South Vietnam is completely different. The people are more khmer like.



Kinh D&#432;&#417;ng V&#432;&#417;ng (Hán t&#7921;: &#28039;&#38525;&#29579;; "King of Kinh D&#432;&#417;ng") is a legendary ancient Vietnamese figure who was the first Hùng V&#432;&#417;ng (King Hùng), mentioned in the 15th century work &#272;&#7841;i Vi&#7879;t s&#7917; ký toàn th&#432; with having grouped all the vassal states within his territory into a unified nation, and as the founder of the H&#7891;ng Bàng Dynasty. *He is considered the first king of the Vietnamese people, and was the father of L&#7841;c Long Quân.*

Kinh D

Our last Emperor was An D&#432;&#417;ng V&#432;&#417;ng from (257 to 207 BCE) before invasion of Nan Yue in to Vietnam. 

An D


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## beijingwalker

Viet said:


> The difference is while Viets women fight on battlefields, their sisters in China fight how to look beautiful.



I guess they want to know the differenc in looks ,not the way they fight.the two peoples look very different.China doesnt have combat units for girls.

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## djsjs

@Viet

do you feel it's a lose that vietnamese give up learning Chinese characters? as the vietnam historical records, cultural relics are all writen in chinese&#65311; maybe latin Latin alphabets help you reduce the illiteracy rate much ,but simuteniously it feels like you cut yourself from your history.
do you have a feeling that you are in a foreign country when you visit an ancient house on which words writen are all chinese characters you cannot read?

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## beijingwalker

Viet said:


> The difference is while Viets women fight on battlefields, their sisters in China fight how to look beautiful.




Our PLA girls do fight,they fight in sports and they train really hard and are among the best in the world.some of them got Olympic gold medals.

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## EastSea

beijingwalker said:


> It was founded by a Chinese,how come it was not a Chinese Kingdom?



Nan Yue Guo was conquered by Han Dynasty. United States founded by English men but became Independence State.

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## Fattyacids

EastSea said:


> Kinh D&#432;&#417;ng V&#432;&#417;ng (Hán t&#7921;: &#28039;&#38525;&#29579;; "King of Kinh D&#432;&#417;ng") is a legendary ancient Vietnamese figure who was the first Hùng V&#432;&#417;ng (King Hùng), mentioned in the 15th century work &#272;&#7841;i Vi&#7879;t s&#7917; ký toàn th&#432; with having grouped all the vassal states within his territory into a unified nation, and as the founder of the H&#7891;ng Bàng Dynasty. *He is considered the first king of the Vietnamese people, and was the father of L&#7841;c Long Quân.*
> 
> Kinh D
> 
> Our last Emperor was An D&#432;&#417;ng V&#432;&#417;ng from (257 to 207 BCE) before invasion of Nan Yue in to Vietnam.
> 
> An D




That was mythology. If you are talking about real history, he did not exist.

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## Fattyacids

Viet said:


> you are right. Some southern Vietnamese are mixed with Chams and Khmers, no surprise giving the neighborhood, while Northern Vietnamese are mixed with Southern Chinese.
> 
> Again NanYue was not a Chinese kingdom.



There was no Vietnam then, Zhao Tuo who was a CHinese general created NanYue that covers Guangzhou China. His capital is Panyue Guangzhou. It is Chinese kingdom.

I'm curious about Northern Vietnam, how much chinese culture and tradition are retained?

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Nan Yue Guo was conquered by Han Dynasty. United States founded by English men but became Independence State.


Nan-Tue and Han were both ancient Chinese nations.
Wales and England were/are British nations.
Sachen and Prussia were German nations.
Mughal and the other Indians nations it had conquered were all Indian nations.

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## Fattyacids

beijingwalker said:


> Our PLA girls do fight,they fight in sports and they train really hard and are among the best in the world.some of them got Olympic gold medals.



Are you sure she is a not movie star, but PLA girls? She is hot.

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## beijingwalker

Fattyacids said:


> Are you sure she is a not movie star, but PLA girls? She is hot.



She is just a soldier

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## EastSea

Fattyacids said:


> That was mythology. If you are talking about real history, he did not exist.




Its like Hua Xia












Garrison stronghold of An Duong Vuong, Co Loa Citadel.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Co_loa_Citadel.jpg














relics.

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## Fattyacids

EastSea said:


> Its like Hua Xia



He is sort of semi mythical? Most history books put Zhao Tuo the first founder of NanYue, as the one who sinizied north vietnam.

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## BoXilai

Most of Vietnamese now are not pure Viet people. A small amount of them can be find in Northern provinces. They're called Giao Ch&#7881; (Jiaozhi) people. 

Look at geographical location you can know why some Vietnamese looks like Chinese while some other ones looks like Thai, Lao,...

Vietnamese now = [Pure Viet mixed with Han(a big amount of them living in the North Vietnam and north of Central Vietnam, even if Vietnamese government did not mass expelled Chinese Vietnamese in 1979, this number can be larger) + Pure Viet mixed with Khmer, Cham,...(Most of people in the South Vietnam and south of Central Vietnam) + Pure Viet(a small amount, they can be found in Phu Tho, Bac Giang, Ha Nam, Hai Duong, Hung Yen, Thai Binh,Nam Dinh,...)] + 55 other nations(3% of population)

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## Fattyacids

BoXilai said:


> Most of Vietnamese now are not pure Viet people. A small amount of them can be find in Northern provinces. They're called Giao Ch&#7881; (Jiaozhi) people.
> 
> Look at geographical location you can know why some Vietnamese looks like Chinese while some other ones looks like Thai, Lao,...
> 
> Vietnamese now = [Pure Viet mixed with Han(a big amount of them living in the North Vietnam and north of Central Vietnam, even if Vietnamese government did not mass expelled Chinese Vietnamese in 1979, this number can be larger) + Pure Viet mixed with Khmer, Cham,...(Most of people in the South Vietnam and south of Central Vietnam) + Pure Viet(a small amount, they can be found in Phu Tho, Bac Giang, Ha Nam, Hai Duong, Hung Yen, Thai Binh,Nam Dinh,...)] + 55 other nations(3% of population)



Original viet are Austroasiatic, how do they look like? closer to Chinese or Khmer? any pics?

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## BoXilai

Fattyacids said:


> Original viet are Austroasiatic, how do they look like? closer to Chinese or Khmer? any pics?



A have read many ancient stories. I think they looked like people in destroyed countries in South China but they had different customs. For example, they usually dyed their teeth to black, made special cakes in Tet Holiday,... 

P/s: Chinese, it's not a nation, it's assemblage of many nations. Many countries were destroyed in geographical history of China. In Vietnam, there is a nation is called Mong, they are descendants of nation of &#26970;(S&#7903, a destroyed country in Chinese history.


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## Fattyacids

BoXilai said:


> A have read many ancient stories. I think they looked like people in destroyed countries in South China but they had different customs. For example, they usually dyed their teeth to black, made special cakes in Tet Holiday,...
> 
> P/s: Chinese, it's not a nation, it's assemblage of many nations. Many countries were destroyed in geographical history of China. In Vietnam, there is a nation is called Mong, they are descendants of nation of &#26970;(S&#7903, a destroyed country in Chinese history.



LOL, Mong are minority tai people. Nothing to do Chu &#26970;.


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## Wholegrain

INDIC said:


> I want to know the similarity and differences between Vietnamese with Southern Hans and the Northern Hans people.





Viet said:


> We are a family.
> 
> The Viets and Southern Han´s are much closer in terms of look than to the Northern Han´s. Nevertherless we all share the same cultures and custom. Many Viets consider the Southern Hans (Cantonese) as their true brothers and sisters as we both lived a country called NamViet in ancient times.
> 
> One of the major differences between the Viets and the Han´s lies the position of women in the society. Traditionally Viets women have more say and right than their sisters in China.



The difference is that southern Han hate Vietnamese while northern Han don't. 

Sputhern Han are descended from northern Han who moved south and married the native Baiyue women, this is why the southern Han y Chromosome (inherited from the father) is extremely close to northern Han Y chromosome, but the mtdna (inherited from the mother) and autosomal DNA is different.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html



> Abstract
> The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion. The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.



European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages



> Abstract
> Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of northsouth division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River.* On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed*.








*The Y chromosome haplogroup and subclade among different groups of East Asians.*

Cantonese still call themselves people of Tang after the Tang dynasty because alot of their ancestors were northerners who fled to Guangdong during the Tang dynasty.

Many northern Chinese fled to southern China in ancient times 

Their is a saying in Taiwan, "mainland grandfather no mainland grandmother" &#26377;&#21776;&#23665;&#20844;&#28961;&#21776;&#23665;&#23229; because Han men from mainland would marry Aboriginal Taiwanese women.

During the first Jin dynasty and the Tang dynasty alot of northern Han fled to southern China.

Portrait of a Community

Portrait of a Community

In the Shadow of the Han

A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google knygos

Northern Han moved to southern China, married native women and their descendants became southern Hans. Many of these southern Han founded Kingdoms like Nanyue and Southern Han. Both of these Southern Han (Cantonese) Kingdoms were enemies of the Vietnamese and fought against them. Nanyue crushed Au Lac and Southern Han fought to retain control of Vietnam. Most armies from China which fought against Vietnam were made out of southern Han and not northerners.

However, many Vietnamese are under strange delusions - they think that Cantonese and other Southern Han have no Han blood and are entirely sinicized Baiyue, that they must be long lost brothers and were brainwashed by the evil northern Han. @EastSea @Rechoice

Southern Han look down on Vietnamese and Cantonese do not want to be associated with them at all. They are angry that Vietnam keeps claiming they are their brothers and claiming Nanyue is Vietnamese. But northern Han don't know any of these things. They don't know what Baiyue is and aren't interested in this stupid stuff which is why they don't hate Vietnamese as much as southern Han.

We have pureblooded Baiyue descendants who were not mixed. They are the natives of southern China.

Tanka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fuzhou Tanka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## djsjs

Vietnam has similar per capita GDP with India,but we all know that vietnamnese living in a much better level on average.Vietnam ,from big cities to small villages,looks much reacher clearer.whats the secret? why don't share some with your so called dear friend Indians?we hope you don't just use them as a tool


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## Wholegrain

I am southern Chinese and I view our culture as similar to northern Chinese and we prefer to associate with them, not with Vietnamese. Most of us trace our paternal ancestors to northern China. Some of us trace them to Persia and Arabia. Almost none of us share paternal ancestors with Vietnamese.

CHINESE-IRANIAN RELATIONS vii. SE. China ? Encyclopaedia Iranica

But according to Rechoice and EastSea, all of these people are lying and brainwashed. They will say these Arabs and Persians are actually Baiyue and claimed they were Arab and Persian because the evil northern Han told them to. Since they live in southern China, according to them, they MUST be brainwashed baiyue.

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## Viet

djsjs said:


> @Viet
> 
> do you feel it's a lose that vietnamese give up learning Chinese characters? as the vietnam historical records, cultural relics are all writen in chinese&#65311; maybe latin Latin alphabets help you reduce the illiteracy rate much ,but simuteniously it feels like you cut yourself from your history.
> 
> do you have a feeling that you are in a foreign country when you visit an ancient house on which words writen are all chinese characters you cannot read?


well, I have mixed feelings...there are two sides of the coin. Depending on how the relationship develops, good or bad, Mandarin may come back as the first foreign language in Vietnam replacing English in school.

Chinese language gains growing popularity among Vietnamese students - Xinhua | English.news.cn


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## EastSea

Fattyacids said:


> He is sort of semi mythical? Most history books put Zhao Tuo the first founder of NanYue, as the one who sinizied north vietnam.




You can read our history book &#22823;&#36234;&#21490;&#35352;&#20840;&#26360; online.

The period of Vietnam's history, controlled by Zhao Tuo is stated in &#22823;&#36234;&#21490;&#35352;&#20840;&#26360; in separate paragraph as "Ngo&#7841;i K&#7927;" or "foreigner's period", 

(I don't know Han characters as I typed " &#22806; &#24049; ' is correct or not).


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## Wholegrain

In ancient tines, when Chinese moved into Vietnam, they merged with the people there and did not form their own communities. The Tran and Ho dynasties were founded by Chinese whose ancestors moved to Vietnam in the Medieval times.

After the Ming dynasty, distinctive communities of Chinese began to form.

There are two groups of Chinese in Vietnam. 

The Minh Huong are descended from Chinese Ming refugees who fled China after the Ming dynasty fell. They married Vietnamese wives and settled in villages in southern Vietnam. The Nguyen rulers in Vietnam moved alot of those Chinese refugees and their wives to southern Vietnam and the Mekong Delta, on former Cham and Khmer land to make sure it stayed in their hands and didn't go back to the Cham or Cambodia. They mostly speak Vietnamese now. Alot of them served in the Nguyen court 

Vietnam and the Chinese Model

The other group of Chinese are merchants who moved to Vietnam during the Qing and Republic of China era. They brought their wives with them from China so their descendants are pure Chinese. They were all merchants and alot of them were expelled from Vietnam in 1979, including jhungary's mother. jhungary claimed his mother was pure Chinese so I can only assume she belonged to this group.

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## Viet

djsjs said:


> Vietnam has similar per capita GDP with India,but we all know that vietnamnese living in a much better level on average.Vietnam ,from big cities to small villages,looks much reacher clearer.*whats the secret?* why don't share some with your so called dear friend Indians?we hope you don't just use them as a tool


You know India is our friend. China, too.

As per recent statistic of the government, there are about 125,000 people in Vietnam suffering food shortage (I will look again for the source and post later). Those poor households receive cheap or free foods from the government. Considering Vietnam population of 91 millions, that is not much. 

The secret? Vietnam produces foods in huge amount, that we can feed half of SE Asia.


http://www.vir.com.vn/news/en/property/syrena-vietnam-launches-coral-bay-townhouse-block-2929a.html


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## Fattyacids

EastSea said:


> You can read our history book &#22823;&#36234;&#21490;&#35352;&#20840;&#26360; online.
> 
> The period of Vietnam's history, controlled by Zhao Tuo is stated in &#22823;&#36234;&#21490;&#35352;&#20840;&#26360; in separate paragraph as "Ngo&#7841;i K&#7927;" or "foreigner's period",
> 
> (I don't know Han characters as I typed " &#22806; &#24049; ' is correct or not).



I read some of your historians considered NanYue as Vietnam's. 

The second character is wrong. 

So Vietnamese completely ditch Han Character?

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## djsjs

Viet said:


> You know India is our friend. China, too.
> As per recent statistic of the government, there are about 125,000 people in Vietnam suffering food shortage (I will look again for the source and post later). Those poor households receive cheap or free foods from the government. Considering Vietnam population of 91 millions, that is not much.
> The secret? Vietnam produces foods in huge amount, that we can feed half of SE Asia.
> Syrena Vietnam launches Coral Bay Townhouse Block 29,29A | Read the Latest Real Estate and Property News including Vietnam


both Vietnam and India have super fertile land,but Vietnam solved food problem well,India doesnt.
and more than food,vietnamnese living in better houses,vietnam cities are much better planned and clearer.everything is better,,,there must be some secret,haha......tell us please


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## Wholegrain

Fattyacids said:


> I read some of your historians considered NanYue as Vietnam's.
> 
> The second character is wrong.
> 
> So Vietnamese completely ditch Han Character?



There are two different character systems in Vietnam.

Classical Chinese (wenyan) was the official language of Vietnam, like it was in China and Korea. Official documents were written in it.

Chu Nom is different. Its using characters to write the Vietnamese language instead of Classical Chinese. Entirely new characters were created by the Vietnamese to write native Vietnamese words. (Like how Japanese use Kana to write native Japanese words) Quoc Ngu replaced Chu Num for writing the Vietnamese language.

Koreans had a similar system called Idu, which had unique characters used to express native Korean words. They replaced it with Hangul.

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## Fattyacids

Wholegrain said:


> There are two different character systems in Vietnam.
> 
> Classical Chinese (wenyan) was the official language of Vietnam, like it was in China and Korea. Official documents were written in it.
> 
> Chu Nom is different. Its using characters to write the Vietnamese language instead of Classical Chinese. Entirely new characters were created by the Vietnamese to write native Vietnamese words. (Like how Japanese use Kana to write native Japanese words) Quoc Ngu replaced Chu Num for writing the Vietnamese language.
> 
> Koreans had a similar system called Idu, which had unique characters used to express native Korean words. They replaced it with Hangul.



Are you an academic of some sort at graduate level? You are very well versed in historical matters

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## Wholegrain

Fattyacids said:


> Are you an academic of some sort at graduate level? You are very well versed in historical matters



I don't specialize in East Asian history, its just something I know well. And you know because Vietnamese has to invent their own characters that their language is not related to Cantonese. Cantonese and Mandarin are both Sinitic languages and share more grammar and vocabulary than with Vietnamese. In a simple sentence in Cantonese and Mandarin, maybe two characters will look different and adjective-noun word order is the same, in Vietnamese half the characters will be different and the noun-adjective word order is reversed. The different characters in Mandarin and Cantonese will often just stem from different root words in Old Chinese or Classical Chinese but in Vietnamese the new characters are made out of thin air.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> The difference is that southern Han hate Vietnamese while northern Han don't.
> 
> Sputhern Han are descended from northern Han who moved south and married the native Baiyue women, this is why the southern Han y Chromosome (inherited from the father) is extremely close to northern Han Y chromosome, but the mtdna (inherited from the mother) and autosomal DNA is different.
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf
> 
> Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html
> 
> 
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Y chromosome haplogroup and subclade among different groups of East Asians.*
> 
> Cantonese still call themselves people of Tang after the Tang dynasty because alot of their ancestors were northerners who fled to Guangdong during the Tang dynasty.
> 
> Many northern Chinese fled to southern China in ancient times
> 
> Their is a saying in Taiwan, "mainland grandfather no mainland grandmother" &#26377;&#21776;&#23665;&#20844;&#28961;&#21776;&#23665;&#23229; because Han men from mainland would marry Aboriginal Taiwanese women.
> 
> During the first Jin dynasty and the Tang dynasty alot of northern Han fled to southern China.
> 
> Portrait of a Community
> 
> Portrait of a Community
> 
> In the Shadow of the Han
> 
> A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google knygos
> 
> Northern Han moved to southern China, married native women and their descendants became southern Hans. Many of these southern Han founded Kingdoms like Nanyue and Southern Han. Both of these Southern Han (Cantonese) Kingdoms were enemies of the Vietnamese and fought against them. Nanyue crushed Au Lac and Southern Han fought to retain control of Vietnam. Most armies from China which fought against Vietnam were made out of southern Han and not northerners.
> 
> However, many Vietnamese are under strange delusions - they think that Cantonese and other Southern Han have no Han blood and are entirely sinicized Baiyue, that they must be long lost brothers and were brainwashed by the evil northern Han. @EastSea @Rechoice
> 
> Southern Han look down on Vietnamese and Cantonese do not want to be associated with them at all. They are angry that Vietnam keeps claiming they are their brothers and claiming Nanyue is Vietnamese. But northern Han don't know any of these things. They don't know what Baiyue is and aren't interested in this stupid stuff which is why they don't hate Vietnamese as much as southern Han.
> 
> We have pureblooded Baiyue descendants who were not mixed. They are the natives of southern China.
> 
> Tanka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Fuzhou Tanka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I (myself) never say that a Vietnamese and southern Chinese people (or Yue people, Cantonese, Min yue, wo yue ...etc) are brothers, they are No-Hans from Yangtze only. We don't shared same bloodline with them, we are Jingzu. You, southern Hans (?) look down at us, we look down at you in same way. Southern Han is not shared 100 % bloodline with true Han in Yangtze river area.

In the past we fought against our enemy, they should be Hans, southern Hans or any...if they invaded in to Vietnam.

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## Fattyacids

Wholegrain said:


> I don't specialize in East Asian history, its just something I know well. And you know because Vietnamese has to invent their own characters that their language is not related to Cantonese. Cantonese and Mandarin are both Sinitic languages and share more grammar and vocabulary than with Vietnamese. In a simple sentence in Cantonese and Mandarin, maybe two characters will look different and adjective-noun word order is the same, in Vietnamese half the characters will be different and the noun-adjective word order is reversed. The different characters in Mandarin and Cantonese will often just stem from different root words in Old Chinese or Classical Chinese but in Vietnamese the new characters are made out of thin air.



Can you point me to some article regarding about Classical Chinese and how is it different from Mandarin, Wu, Min-nan or Cantonese? I'm a poor student of my history.


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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> well, I have mixed feelings...there are two sides of the coin. Depending on how the relationship develops, good or bad, Mandarin may come back as the first foreign language in Vietnam replacing English in school.
> 
> Chinese language gains growing popularity among Vietnamese students - Xinhua | English.news.cn



Yesterday I went to a Vietnamese restaurant, but the menu is written in Chinese, English and Vietnamese. I almost talk to waitress with Chinese when I suddenly remember they are Vietnamese.


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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> you are right...Hanoier and Shanghai for example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Viet girl_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Chinese girl_



They look like each other to some extent.

But you are wrong, Zhang Hanyun is from Sichuan, not Shanghai.



Viet said:


> You should listen to French instead, one of most beautiful languages of the world.



Really? You really think so? French sounds terrible. Spanish sounds good.

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## ephone

women in vietnam are in such an lower position than women in China. 

I think you need correct that lie.



Viet said:


> We are a family.
> 
> The Viets and Southern Han´s are much closer in terms of look than to the Northern Han´s. Nevertherless we all share the same cultures and custom. Many Viets consider the Southern Hans (Cantonese) as their true brothers and sisters as we both lived a country called NamViet in ancient times.
> 
> One of the major differences between the Viets and the Han´s lies the position of women in the society. Traditionally Viets women have more say and right than their sisters in China.



You forgot to mentioned vietnam was later still part of China protectorate until the late 19th Century's french invasion. 



Viet said:


> Actually the modern Vietnam history began with the battle of bach dang river in 938 AD. In that year the Vietnamese general Ngo Quyen defeated the invading forces of the Southern Han and put an end to centuries of Chinese imperial domination in Vietnam.
> 
> 
> _Battle of B_

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## ephone

China will not allow vietnam to do so. As soon as vietnam tries to invade Laos or other southeastern Asia countries, our Army will initiate the attack for sure.



djsjs said:


> vietnam was developing fast in the past decades.we can predict that in several decades vietnam would be a regional power of southeast asia ,both in econemy and military. so my question is when will Vietnamese invade Laos Kampuchea Thailand,what's the detail plan do you guys think is the best?
> i wish vietnamese answer my questions honestly. no need to cover your real thought,as we Chinese know your embitions too well.


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## Wholegrain

ephone said:


> China will not allow vietnam to do so. As soon as vietnam tries to invade Laos or other southeastern Asia countries, our Army will initiate the attack for sure.



Wrong. China backed the Hmong rebels against the Vietnamese army and Laos in the 1990s. It will arm Hmong or Tai proxy militias in Laos in Vietnam invades, it will not use the PLA.


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> I (myself) never say that a Vietnamese and southern Chinese people (or Yue people, Cantonese, Min yue, wo yue ...etc) are brothers, they are No-Hans from Yangtze only. We don't shared same bloodline with them, we are Jingzu. You, southern Hans (?) look down at us, we look down at you in same way. Southern Han is not shared 100 % bloodline with true Han in Yangtze river area.
> 
> In the past we fought against our enemy, they should be Hans, southern Hans or any...if they invaded in to Vietnam.



Southern Vietnamese are No-Kinhs from southern Vietam only. Southern Kinh is not shared 100% bloodline with true Kinh in southern Vietnam area.

I'm going to apply your stupidity in claiming southern Han are all baiyue to other countries. All southern Vietnamese are fake Kinh and they were Khmer and Cham were were tricked into becoming Kinh. Chinese in Singapore must be Malays who were brainwashed into becoming Chinese. White Americans in the United States are native americans who were brainwashed into thinking they are white.  

A Han is a person whose native language is a Chinese language and whose ancestors come from northern China. Southern Han are descended paternally from northern Han. Southern Han speak languages descended from Old Chinese which is from northern China, and not baiyue languages.

Yue (Cantonese), Wu, and Min dialects are all Sinitic (Chinese) languages descended from Old Chinese.

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## Soryu

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Really? You really think so? French sounds terrible. Spanish sounds good.



same with me  (well, maybe French is not that bad), an*d Viet* just want to joke with his "friends"

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## INDIC

Wholegrain said:


> Southern Vietnamese are No-Kinhs from southern Vietam only. Southern Kinh is not shared 100% bloodline with true Kinh in southern Vietnam area.
> 
> I'm going to apply your stupidity in claiming southern Han are all baiyue to other countries. All southern Vietnamese are fake Kinh and they were Khmer and Cham were were tricked into becoming Kinh. Chinese in Singapore must be Malays who were brainwashed into becoming Chinese. White Americans in the United States are native americans who were brainwashed into thinking they are white.
> 
> A Han is a person whose native language is a Chinese language and whose ancestors come from northern China. Southern Han are descended paternally from northern Han. Southern Han speak languages descended from Old Chinese which is from northern China, and not baiyue languages.
> 
> Yue (Cantonese), Wu, and Min dialects are all Sinitic (Chinese) languages descended from Old Chinese.



Is this hui(Anhai) the language of Hui people.


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## Wholegrain

INDIC said:


> Is this hui(Anhai) the language of Hui people.



No, ithe language is Hu&#299; &#24509; 

Huí is written as &#22238;.

Hui people just speak the dialect of the province they live in.

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## Zero_wing

Man you really love to pick fights typical imperialist picking fights with smaller countries to make it feels strong wow some has a small hahahahahaha

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## ephone

So why did China use PLA in 1979???



Wholegrain said:


> Wrong. China backed the Hmong rebels against the Vietnamese army and Laos in the 1990s. It will arm Hmong or Tai proxy militias in Laos in Vietnam invades, it will not use the PLA.

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## Rechoice

ephone said:


> So why did China use PLA in 1979???



and so why did China use PLA in 1989, initiated on June 3&#8211;4 became known as the Tiananmen Square Massacre.

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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> and so why did China use PLA in 1989, initiated on June 3&#8211;4 became known as the Tiananmen Square Massacre.



There was no Massacre in Tiananmen Square.

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## Rechoice

KirovAirship said:


> There was no Massacre in Tiananmen Square.





Party authorities declared that PLA mobilized as many as 300,000 troops to Beijing.


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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> Party authorities declared that PLA mobilized as many as 300,000 troops to Beijing.



Really?
Anyway, if the PLA did such thing in the beginning (the first week), then that was really a massacre. 
but what they did at 6.4 is good for everyone.

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## beijingwalker

KirovAirship said:


> Really?
> Anyway, if the PLA did such thing in the beginning (the first week), then that was really a massacre.
> but what they did at 6.4 is good for everyone.



the government moblised many troops from different military regions and sent them to Beijing,it's not because the government needed those many troops to quell the riot,it's because the government was afraid of military coup within the army,troops from different units under different commanders can monitor and check each other's coup attempts. the chief commander of the Army No.38th was soon removed from his post after his troops sent to Beijing.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Southern Vietnamese are No-Kinhs from southern Vietam only. Southern Kinh is not shared 100% bloodline with true Kinh in southern Vietnam area.
> 
> I'm going to apply your stupidity in claiming southern Han are all baiyue to other countries. All southern Vietnamese are fake Kinh and they were Khmer and Cham were were tricked into becoming Kinh. Chinese in Singapore must be Malays who were brainwashed into becoming Chinese. White Americans in the United States are native americans who were brainwashed into thinking they are white.
> 
> A Han is a person whose native language is a Chinese language and whose ancestors come from northern China. Southern Han are descended paternally from northern Han. Southern Han speak languages descended from Old Chinese which is from northern China, and not baiyue languages.
> 
> Yue (Cantonese), Wu, and Min dialects are all Sinitic (Chinese) languages descended from Old Chinese.



Vietnamese Kinh people from early ancient time, the earliest gradually moved from the Indonesian archipelago through the Malay Peninsula and Thailand until they settled on the edges of the Red River in the Tonkin Delta up to southern area of China. Our language, It is part of the Austroasiatic language family of which it has,

Among these languages, only Khmer, Vietnamese, and Mon have a long-established recorded history, and Vietnamese and Khmer have the status is that in daily speaking we share most of words are in original from the same roots. 

If it should be that small portion of Kinh people has a marriage a relation with Khmer people, it's no thing related to true bloodline of Kinh, they were brother and neighbors in early time. The Historians believe that from the Late Pleistocene Age (600,000-12,000 BC), that why Vietnam is joined to ESAN.
For the Cham people they are most moved away from Vietnam to Acer and other Islands of Indonesia. 

For you Cantonese, NanYue_ren, it's nothing as shameful for you that your identity related to bloodline is not the same as Han Chinese in Northern China. It has been changed, more or less.
It's truth.

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## Fsjal

I think Vietnam has an interesting history, Their rich culture roots from China. I think China and Vietnam are friends. 
Anyway, how do Vietnamese people feel about Chinese people?


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## Snomannen

I suggest that loser go tell the nonsense of how shameful that how people of Wales lost their "identity" from 'British' and how most Indian lost their identity from Mughal in reality, rather than polluting the internet.

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## Soryu

Fsjal said:


> I think Vietnam has an interesting history, Their rich culture roots from China. I think China and Vietnam are friends.
> Anyway, how do Vietnamese people feel about Chinese people?



you should know it, 
It's mix feeling of many thing about China ...

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## Sedqal

How much truth is in rumors that America used chemical weapons in Vietnam? If yes - have you approached international bodies to make a case?


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## EastSea

Sedqal said:


> How much truth is in rumors that America used chemical weapons in Vietnam? If yes - have you approached international bodies to make a case?




Agent Orange was used material mixed with jet fuel in Vietnam, eastern Laos and parts of Cambodia, also was only used between 1965 and 1970. 

And other herbicides were used by the US military from the late 1940s through the 1970s in US. 


On January 31, 2004, a victim's rights group, the Vietnam Association for Victims of Agent Orange/dioxin (VAVA), filed a lawsuit in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York in Brooklyn, against several U.S. companies for liability in causing personal injury in Vietnam war. 

The case was appealed and heard by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals on June 18, 2007. The Court of Appeals upheld the dismissal of the case, stating the herbicides used during the war were not intended to be used to poison humans and therefore did not violate international law. The US Supreme Court declined to consider the case.

U.S.&#8211;Vietnamese government is followed negotiations on Help for those whos are affected in Vietnam and to assist to cleaning all area where were effected.

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## Viet

ephone said:


> *China will not allow vietnam to do so*. As soon as vietnam tries to invade Laos or other southeastern Asia countries, our Army will initiate the attack for sure.


I wonder why China is always keen to contain Vietnam and threatens with force (invasion, etc...) if we seek to expand our influence in the region. Can´t you just keep your eyes shut for a while? We assure You can do business everywhere in Asia as you please.

As far as I know China´s key foreign policy is not to interfere other countries.

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## Fsjal

Hey Viet, when was the last time you went to Vietnam. Also, what places did you visit in Vietnam?


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## Viet

Fsjal said:


> Hey Viet, when was the last time you went to Vietnam. Also, what places did you visit in Vietnam?


I went there last Christmas. I visited Saigon, Hue, Nha Trang, Da Nang, and some others in central and south Vietnam.

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## Fsjal

Viet said:


> I went there last Christmas. I visited *Saigon*, Hue, Nha Trang, Da Nang, and some others in central and south Vietnam.



Isn't it Ho Cho Minh City?


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## EastSea

off topic, self deleted.


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## djsjs

vietnamnese.how many chinese festivals do you keep now?


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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> I wonder why China is always keen to contain Vietnam and threatens with force (invasion, etc...) if we seek to expand our influence in the region. Can´t you just keep your eyes shut for a while? We assure You can do business everywhere in Asia as you please.



Two reason and just a few facts.

First, that's your illusion, maybe. China has more global strategies, we have more concerns other than SCS. While Vietnam regard SCS as total national interests.



Viet said:


> As far as I know China´s key foreign policy is not to interfere other countries.




Second, as far as I know, Vietnam occupied most islands in SCS, 3.5 times China's. 28 Versus 8. 

You are right, China's policy has always been _"shelve disputes and carry out joint development"_, but in fact, this is only part of the original policy, which is "_first insist China's sovereignty, and then shelve disputes and carry out joint development_". We have already "keep our eyes shut for a while". Very few Chinese leaders mentioned to insist our sovereignty. None of our CPC media mentioned "insist our sovereignty" together with joint development. Merely nobody knows the whole sentence until recently one of our media made such disclosure.

Just a few facts. Hope mutual understanding.

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## Fattyacids

Wholegrain said:


>



Yue dialect came from Ba Shu? I didn't know that.

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## Viet

Fsjal said:


> Isn't it Ho Cho Minh City?


Yes, it is another name for Saigon. Just some few of Southern Vietnamese want to use this name HCM. By the way, Saigon officialy is a part of HCM city.

The traffic in the city is crazy. It is an adventure to cross the street. You must wait for several years until the subway is complete.

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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> It was founded by a Chinese,how come it was not a Chinese Kingdom?


provocative question? what do Zhao Tuo, Napoleon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler have in common?

Zhao Tuo was Chinese and founded NamViet, while Napoleon Bonaparte born in Corsica founded the French Empire and the last one came from Austria founded the German Third Reich. 

How many Non-Han´s (foreigners) ruled China throughout history and you call all of them Chinese?

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## beijingwalker

Viet said:


> provocative question? what do Zhao Tuo, Napoleon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler have in common?
> 
> Zhao Tuo was Chinese and founded NamViet, while Napoleon Bonaparte born in Corsica founded the French Empire and the last one came from Austria founded the German Third Reich.
> 
> How many Non-Han´s (foreigners) ruled China throughout history and you call all of them Chinese?



He was Chinese and most part of his Kingdom was in today's China.it was a Chinese local Kingdom.

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## MooshMoosh

What I know about Veitnam?

- 100% experience in Guerilla warfares (Jungles)
- Showed double humiliation to American army
- Claiming this is my property while others say no
- Murder crimes covered up
- troubles in school, securities often bolstered
- Loves hairstyles 
- High knowledge in Maths
- Loves to play Pool Billiard
- Loves drinking
- Girls love wearing skirts
- Kind to people in the West
- Dau Ma = f**k you

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## beijingwalker

Nam Viet was a Chinese local Kingdom


> Nanyue (Chinese: &#21335;&#36234;; pinyin: Nányuè; Cantonese Yale: -Nàahmyuht; Vietnamese: Nam Vi&#7879;t[1]) was an ancient kingdom that consisted of parts of the *modern Chinese provinces of Guangdong, Guangxi, and Yunnan* and northern Vietnam.
> 
> *The kingdom was founded by leaders originally from the Chinese heartland, *and was responsible for bringing Chinese bureaucracy and more advanced agriculture and handicraft techniques to the inhabitants of the southern regions, as well as knowledge of the Chinese language and writing system. Nanyue leaders promoted a policy of "Harmonizing and Gathering the Hundred Yue Tribes" (Chinese: &#21644;&#38598;&#30334;&#36234, and* encouraged fellow Han Chinese to immigrate from their Yellow River homeland to the south. They supported mutual assimilation of the two cultures and peoples, and promulgated Han culture and the Chinese language throughout the region.*

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## ephone

Well, China will not allow others to interfere or invade border countries that China has close connection with. 

For example, Korea war, China against the so-called U.S. led U.N. force, helping the n.k.
Early vn war, China against the France, helping the n. vn
Later vn war, China against U.S., helping the n. vn
Border conflict with vn during the 80s, helping cambodia.





Viet said:


> I wonder why China is always keen to contain Vietnam and threatens with force (invasion, etc...) if we seek to expand our influence in the region. Can´t you just keep your eyes shut for a while? We assure You can do business everywhere in Asia as you please.
> 
> As far as I know China´s key foreign policy is not to interfere other countries.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Vietnamese Kinh people from early ancient time, the earliest gradually moved from the Indonesian archipelago through the Malay Peninsula and Thailand until they settled on the edges of the Red River in the Tonkin Delta up to southern area of China. Our language, It is part of the Austroasiatic language family of which it has,
> 
> Among these languages, only Khmer, Vietnamese, and Mon have a long-established recorded history, and Vietnamese and Khmer have the status is that in daily speaking we share most of words are in original from the same roots.
> 
> If it should be that small portion of Kinh people has a marriage a relation with Khmer people, it's no thing related to true bloodline of Kinh, they were brother and neighbors in early time. The Historians believe that from the Late Pleistocene Age (600,000-12,000 BC), that why Vietnam is joined to ESAN.
> For the Cham people they are most moved away from Vietnam to Acer and other Islands of Indonesia.
> 
> For you Cantonese, NanYue_ren, it's nothing as shameful for you that your identity related to bloodline is not the same as Han Chinese in Northern China. It has been changed, more or less.
> It's truth.



The majority of Cantonese, Fujianese and residents of Zhejiang and other southern provinces are descended from northern Han who moved to Guangdong after the fall of the Han dynasty. During the Eastern Jin dynasty and during the Tang dynasty, millions of northern Han fled to southern China. You are a massive liar. 

Portrait of a Community

Portrait of a Community

In the Shadow of the Han

A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google knygos

Southern Han are descended from northern Han who moved south and married the native Baiyue women, this is why the southern Han y Chromosome (inherited from the father) is extremely close to northern Han Y chromosome, but the mtdna (inherited from the mother) and autosomal DNA is different.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html



European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages








*The Y chromosome haplogroup and subclade among different groups of East Asians.*

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## Wholegrain

ephone said:


> Well, China will not allow others to interfere or invade border countries that China has close connection with.
> 
> For example, Korea war, China against the so-called U.S. led U.N. force, helping the n.k.
> Early vn war, China against the France, helping the n. vn
> Later vn war, China against U.S., helping the n. vn
> Border conflict with vn during the 80s, helping cambodia.



And in the 1520s, China fought and defeated the Portuguese and executed an entire Portuguese delegation in revenge after Portugal conquered the Malacca Sultanate.

But if you were in power back then, you would have called the Malacca Sultanate "Islam Fanatics" and wouldn't have lifted a finger against the Portuguese.

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## ephone

What an idiot. 

Islam terrorists/fundamentalists/extremists are more or less a modern concepts for the past 100 years. 

idiot like you keeps dumping unrelated garbage here.

Let me tell you again: stop following my comments and fxxk off.



Wholegrain said:


> And in the 1520s, China fought and defeated the Portuguese and executed an entire Portuguese delegation in revenge after Portugal conquered the Malacca Sultanate.
> 
> But if you were in power back then, you would have called the Malacca Sultanate "Islam Fanatics" and wouldn't have lifted a finger against the Portuguese.

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## Rechoice

self deleted


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## walle

du ma song - YouTube

Sterotypical viet in Sydney, Australia, songs from 2004/05.


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## Rechoice

walle said:


> du ma song - YouTube
> 
> Sterotypical viet in Sydney, Australia, songs from 2004/05.



Don't bring sh**ts here, you are stink first.

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## walle

Rechoice said:


> Don't bring sh**ts here, you are stink first.



Go to Cabramatta, Sydney Australia. You will be at home, its a shitty suburb in western sydney where alot of Viets live.

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## Viet

ephone said:


> women in vietnam are in such an lower position than women in China.
> I think you need correct that lie.


Let me re-post this historic event of the rebellion of Trung sisters. As daughters of a noble Vietnamese family, the Trung sisters were in line to inherit their father&#8217;s land and titles. According to Chinese law, they could not. 


*The Tr&#432;ng sisters*
Tr&#432;ng Tr&#7855;c (&#24501; &#20596 and Tr&#432;ng Nh&#7883; (&#24501; &#36019 | (ca. 12 - AD 43) 







&#8220;All the male heroes bowed their heads in submission; &#8232;Only the two sisters proudly stood up to avenge the country.&#8221; &#8232; - 15th century poem

For over a thousand years, the Chinese Han Dynasty ruled over Vietnam as a colonial power. Vietnam had resources, people, and most importantly, the Red River Delta. The Red River Delta is an area in the north of the country that was cultivated for wet rice production, was an important international trading port, and was the land from where the Vietnamese traced their origins. The Han Dynasty had been encroaching on the Lac Lords of Vietnam, the heads of the feudal system that was the foundation of Vietnamese culture. These were the landed aristocrats that had been the ruling noble class for over two millennia.

At first working together in trade and negotiations, the relationship grew authoritarian, and the Chinese began to tax, subjugate, and forcibly assimilate the Vietnamese into the Chinese Empire. By 111 BC, the Han Dynasty had complete control over Vietnam and had divided the kingdom into territories that were ruled by Chinese appointed governors. 

Fast-forward 150 years to 39 AD and we meet one such Chinese governor, To Dinh, who ruled over the Me Linh prefecture. The Vietnamese Lord of this prefecture was General Lac, who had two daughters, Trung Trac and Trung Nhi. The two daughters grew up in a military household and were trained in the art of warfare, weaponry, and martial arts. When it came time for a marriage for the eldest daughter Trac, she married the son of the neighboring prefecture who also hailed from a military noble family. Together these two noble families created a powerful military alliance.

China&#8217;s repressive regime, taxation of goods, imprisonment of &#8220;uncooperative&#8221; Vietnamese, and confiscation of lands was causing open hostility among the aristocracy and peasant populations. Most importantly for our heroines, the Chinese replaced the Vietnamese matriarchal family-system with its strict patriarchal system with rigid social control. This is the kiss of death for any society with any form of equality between the sexes. Just ask our friends Cleopatra and her daughter Selene.

As daughters of a noble Vietnamese family, the Trung sisters were in line to inherit their father&#8217;s land and titles. According to Chinese law, they could not. Then, the unthinkable happened. Trac&#8217;s husband was executed for protesting a new tax imposed by To Dinh. Trac and Nhi&#8217;s inheritance, livelihood, and way of life were in jeopardy. Trac refused to go into mourning and instead she and her sister put all their military training to work and began mobilizing the remaining noblemen and peasants to their cause. Their goal was to oust Governor To Dinh and return Vietnam to an independent kingdom. They organized an army of 30,000 soldiers and led them into battle.






In literature and art the Trung sisters charge into battle atop elephants with swords drawn. Surrounding them are the armies raised by the lords from their individual prefectures. At the head of these armies were the generals the Trung sisters chose to be commanders. Temples dedicated to the Trung sisters that remain today list the leaders and generals of their army. The majority of them are women, including their own mother. One of the generals was a woman named Phing Thi Chinh, who according to legend, gave birth during the revolution and would fight in battle with her newborn strapped to her back.

But why would so many follow two women? Trung Trac and Trung Nhi were also descendants of Lac Long Quân, the original Dragon Lord, the founder of the Vietnamese people. According to their creation myth, The Dragon Lord&#8217;s wife laid 100 eggs that would go on to become the 100 noble families of Vietnam. Trac and Nhi&#8217;s family were one of those elite. As a matriarchal society were women could hold equal ranking as men, following two women who claimed to be descendents of the Dragon Lord seemed like a no brainer.

Within several months, the Trung sisters had liberated 65 northern citadels in Vietnam and ousted the repressive governor. Trac now commanded an army of 80,000 soldiers. She proclaimed herself Queen of an independent Vietnam and established her capital in her hometown at Me Linh. Some records indicate Nhi was the better warrior. If this is true, it would seem that the Trung sisters followed the typical royal family model of the eldest child being crowned monarch and the younger child named commander of the nation&#8217;s army. Other accounts tell us that the two sisters ruled as co-regents of the newly independent Vietnam.

Trac&#8217;s reign was dedicated to restoring Vietnam back to its traditional ways. She immediately ended all tributary taxes to China, distributed the treasury of the governor back to the Lac Lords, and attempted to return to a feudal political system. For almost three years, the Trung sisters successfully fought and held off the Chinese, who were not going to give up the Red River Delta so easily. 

In 43 AD, the Chinese sent a new General Marshal Ma Yuan to deal with the Trung Sisters. This time, the Han Emperor put all his resources into the army and taking back Vietnam. Many of the original lords and supporters of the Trung Sisters had returned to their land, taking their armies with them. What was left was no match for the invading Chinese army and they defeated the Trung sisters and put Vietnam back under colonial control. According to Chinese history, the Trung sisters were executed. According to Vietnamese history, they committed suicide by drowning in a river to maintain their honor.







Centuries later, the Trung sisters became heroes and the first Vietnamese nationalists. A seventh-century retelling imagines Trac&#8217;s declaration to her army as putting her duty to country first over her duty to family:

&#8220;Foremost, I will avenge my country,
Second, I will restore the Hung lineage,
Third, I will avenge the death of my husband,
Lastly, I vow that these goals will be accomplished&#8221;

As with all national heroes, the Trung sisters&#8217; exploits have become epic over time. In one account, they kill a tiger that no one had been able to capture and then write their manifesto on its skin. Every February, there is a celebration held in their honor commemorating their martyrdoms. They remain unifying national heroes to the Vietnamese identify and their association with rebellion against invasion is still evoked today. This poignant video compares the Trung sister&#8217;s rebellion against China almost two thousand years ago with the struggles of Vietnam in the twentieth century to regain independence from foreign occupiers.

Chick History: The Trung Sisters: Vietnam&#8217;s First Nationalists

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> We are a family.
> 
> The Viets and Southern Han´s are much closer in terms of look than to the Northern Han´s. Nevertherless we all share the same cultures and custom. Many Viets consider the Southern Hans (Cantonese) as their true brothers and sisters as we both lived a country called NamViet in ancient times.
> 
> One of the major differences between the Viets and the Han´s lies the position of women in the society. Traditionally Viets women have more say and right than their sisters in China.



I am a Southern Han, and i don't feel close to the Viets at all.

The only group of Southern Han who shares the similar female lineage with the Viets are Cantonese, but their father line is still Han. Therefore, they are not entirely same as the Viets.

Overall Chinese are East Asians, while Viets are Southeast Asians.

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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> Nam Viet was a Chinese local Kingdom


Do you as Chinese call other Chinese as foreigner?


*In 196 BC, Zhao Tuo made tributary obeisance to the Emperor Gaozu of Han and Nanyue was referred to by Han leaders as a "foreign servant" (Chinese: &#22806;&#33251, synecdoche for a vassal state.*

Nanyue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Viet

djsjs said:


> Vietnam has similar per capita GDP with India,but we all know that vietnamnese living in a much better level on average.Vietnam ,from big cities to small villages,looks much reacher clearer.whats the *secret*?
> 
> why don't share some with your so called dear friend Indians?we hope you don't just use them as a tool


one more reply to your question. I can reveal you a "secret". 

One of our national characters is understatement. It is not necessarily bad to bluff your enemy and opponent. History shows when our enemies realized what happened then it was too late.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I am a Southern Han, and *i don't feel close to the Viets at all.*
> 
> The only group of Southern Han who shares the similar female lineage with the Viets are Cantonese, but their father line is still Han. Therefore, they are not entirely same as the Viets.
> 
> Overall Chinese are East Asians, while Viets are Southeast Asians.


dude, I say we share the same culture and custom, a family of. Sure, we look different and less greedy. The Viets are not Han´s. 

Yes, we don´t want to antagonise you Chinese too much, otherwise we would have built a great wall along China-Vietnam border to separate the countries.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> dude, I say we share the same culture and custom, a family of. Sure, we look different and less greedy. The Viets are not Han´s.



The only group of Viet that i do feel with some similarity is Hoa.

Although Hoas have already mixed with the Viets, but many of them still remaining East Asians by appearance.

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## ChineseTiger1986

More propaganda bullsh1t, the ancient Chinese didn't dress like that, this is the dress of the much later Qing Dynasty.

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## Sedqal

Is racial purity a big issue in Vietnam? Does it effect politics?


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## beijingwalker

Viet said:


> Do you as Chinese call other Chinese as foreigner?
> 
> 
> *In 196 BC, Zhao Tuo made tributary obeisance to the Emperor Gaozu of Han and Nanyue was referred to by Han leaders as a "foreign servant" (Chinese: &#22806;&#33251, synecdoche for a vassal state.*
> 
> Nanyue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



They called each other foreigners in the past,even provice used to be a kingdom in China,but later on they all came into a single country.

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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> Do you as Chinese call other Chinese as foreigner?
> 
> 
> *In 196 BC, Zhao Tuo made tributary obeisance to the Emperor Gaozu of Han and Nanyue was referred to by Han leaders as a "foreign servant" (Chinese: &#22806;&#33251, synecdoche for a vassal state.*
> 
> Nanyue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So? During the dynasties of Spring and Autumn, the Three Kingdoms and the others, every Chinese nations are foreigners to the others.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> So? During the dynasties of Spring and Autumn, the Three Kingdoms and the others, every Chinese nations are foreigners to the others.


okay, Chinese seem to have a different concept of nationalism. The Viet never called other Viet as foreigner, even in times when there were two Viet Kingdoms, the Nguyen (North) and the Trinh (South).


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## beijingwalker

Viet said:


> okay, Chinese seem to have a different concept of nationalism. The Viet never called other Viet as foreigner, even in times when there were two Viet Kingdoms, the Nguyen (North) and the Trinh (South).



In some part of the history,they did.every country did,even a country as small as Britain did.but it wont stop them from becoming one country today.

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## sahaliyan

Wholegrain said:


> The majority of Cantonese, Fujianese and residents of Zhejiang and other southern provinces are descended from northern Han who moved to Guangdong after the fall of the Han dynasty. During the Eastern Jin dynasty and during the Tang dynasty, millions of northern Han fled to southern China. You are a massive liar.
> 
> Portrait of a Community
> 
> Portrait of a Community
> 
> In the Shadow of the Han
> 
> A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google knygos
> 
> Southern Han are descended from northern Han who moved south and married the native Baiyue women, this is why the southern Han y Chromosome (inherited from the father) is extremely close to northern Han Y chromosome, but the mtdna (inherited from the mother) and autosomal DNA is different.
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf
> 
> Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html
> 
> 
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Y chromosome haplogroup and subclade among different groups of East Asians.*


No,most Southern Chinese are natives,for example in Guangdong,at least 40% of their paternal lineage and 80% maternal line are netive.O1-M119 make up 30% of Zhejiang males,while less than 4% of northern Chinese





·Ö×ÓÈËÀàÑ§ÂÛÌ³ - Powered by Discuz!

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## Viet

walle said:


> Go to Cabramatta, Sydney Australia. You will be at home, its a shitty suburb in western sydney where alot of Viets live.


you dumb@ss. I visited Cabramatta recently. We are doing fine there. Go and tell me how and where Chinese communities live in Australia?


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## EastSea

ephone said:


> Well, China will not allow others to interfere or invade border countries that China has close connection with.
> 
> For example, Korea war, China against the so-called U.S. led U.N. force, helping the n.k.
> Early vn war, China against the France, helping the n. vn
> Later vn war, China against U.S., helping the n. vn
> Border conflict with vn during the 80s, helping cambodia.



Early vn war, China against the France, *helping the n. vn* to shake hands with France to divide Vietnam in Geneva conference for Vietnam 1954. so France was first country in the west recognized Communist China of Mao.
Later vn war, China against U.S., helping the n. vn only to 1968 to make his position to discuss with Nixon 1972 and normalization diplomacy relation with US, enemy of Vietnam in Vietnam war.
Border conflict with vn during the 80s, is consequency of that China was backed Khmer Rouge in cambodia to attack Vietnam from 1976-1978. When Khmer Rouge was wiped out by Cambodia people with help of Vietnam. China droped his mask and himself attacke on Vietnam 1979.



Sedqal said:


> Is racial purity a big issue in Vietnam? Does it effect politics?



Read my answer above, You can understand that why Vietnamese people look bad at Chinese CPC leaders (Mao, Dang Xiaoping ...) and such extremists in China.


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## ephone

What kind of garbage are you posting???

Are you talking about women thousand of years ago or women today???

The consensus is that women status today in China is way higher than that in vietnam. 



Viet said:


> Let me re-post this historic event of the rebellion of Trung sisters. As daughters of a noble Vietnamese family, the Trung sisters were in line to inherit their fathers land and titles. According to Chinese law, they could not.
> 
> 
> *The Tr&#432;ng sisters*
> Tr&#432;ng Tr&#7855;c (&#24501; &#20596 and Tr&#432;ng Nh&#7883; (&#24501; &#36019 | (ca. 12 - AD 43)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the male heroes bowed their heads in submission; &#8232;Only the two sisters proudly stood up to avenge the country. &#8232; - 15th century poem
> 
> For over a thousand years, the Chinese Han Dynasty ruled over Vietnam as a colonial power. Vietnam had resources, people, and most importantly, the Red River Delta. The Red River Delta is an area in the north of the country that was cultivated for wet rice production, was an important international trading port, and was the land from where the Vietnamese traced their origins. The Han Dynasty had been encroaching on the Lac Lords of Vietnam, the heads of the feudal system that was the foundation of Vietnamese culture. These were the landed aristocrats that had been the ruling noble class for over two millennia.
> 
> At first working together in trade and negotiations, the relationship grew authoritarian, and the Chinese began to tax, subjugate, and forcibly assimilate the Vietnamese into the Chinese Empire. By 111 BC, the Han Dynasty had complete control over Vietnam and had divided the kingdom into territories that were ruled by Chinese appointed governors.
> 
> Fast-forward 150 years to 39 AD and we meet one such Chinese governor, To Dinh, who ruled over the Me Linh prefecture. The Vietnamese Lord of this prefecture was General Lac, who had two daughters, Trung Trac and Trung Nhi. The two daughters grew up in a military household and were trained in the art of warfare, weaponry, and martial arts. When it came time for a marriage for the eldest daughter Trac, she married the son of the neighboring prefecture who also hailed from a military noble family. Together these two noble families created a powerful military alliance.
> 
> Chinas repressive regime, taxation of goods, imprisonment of uncooperative Vietnamese, and confiscation of lands was causing open hostility among the aristocracy and peasant populations. Most importantly for our heroines, the Chinese replaced the Vietnamese matriarchal family-system with its strict patriarchal system with rigid social control. This is the kiss of death for any society with any form of equality between the sexes. Just ask our friends Cleopatra and her daughter Selene.
> 
> As daughters of a noble Vietnamese family, the Trung sisters were in line to inherit their fathers land and titles. According to Chinese law, they could not. Then, the unthinkable happened. Tracs husband was executed for protesting a new tax imposed by To Dinh. Trac and Nhis inheritance, livelihood, and way of life were in jeopardy. Trac refused to go into mourning and instead she and her sister put all their military training to work and began mobilizing the remaining noblemen and peasants to their cause. Their goal was to oust Governor To Dinh and return Vietnam to an independent kingdom. They organized an army of 30,000 soldiers and led them into battle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In literature and art the Trung sisters charge into battle atop elephants with swords drawn. Surrounding them are the armies raised by the lords from their individual prefectures. At the head of these armies were the generals the Trung sisters chose to be commanders. Temples dedicated to the Trung sisters that remain today list the leaders and generals of their army. The majority of them are women, including their own mother. One of the generals was a woman named Phing Thi Chinh, who according to legend, gave birth during the revolution and would fight in battle with her newborn strapped to her back.
> 
> But why would so many follow two women? Trung Trac and Trung Nhi were also descendants of Lac Long Quân, the original Dragon Lord, the founder of the Vietnamese people. According to their creation myth, The Dragon Lords wife laid 100 eggs that would go on to become the 100 noble families of Vietnam. Trac and Nhis family were one of those elite. As a matriarchal society were women could hold equal ranking as men, following two women who claimed to be descendents of the Dragon Lord seemed like a no brainer.
> 
> Within several months, the Trung sisters had liberated 65 northern citadels in Vietnam and ousted the repressive governor. Trac now commanded an army of 80,000 soldiers. She proclaimed herself Queen of an independent Vietnam and established her capital in her hometown at Me Linh. Some records indicate Nhi was the better warrior. If this is true, it would seem that the Trung sisters followed the typical royal family model of the eldest child being crowned monarch and the younger child named commander of the nations army. Other accounts tell us that the two sisters ruled as co-regents of the newly independent Vietnam.
> 
> Tracs reign was dedicated to restoring Vietnam back to its traditional ways. She immediately ended all tributary taxes to China, distributed the treasury of the governor back to the Lac Lords, and attempted to return to a feudal political system. For almost three years, the Trung sisters successfully fought and held off the Chinese, who were not going to give up the Red River Delta so easily.
> 
> In 43 AD, the Chinese sent a new General Marshal Ma Yuan to deal with the Trung Sisters. This time, the Han Emperor put all his resources into the army and taking back Vietnam. Many of the original lords and supporters of the Trung Sisters had returned to their land, taking their armies with them. What was left was no match for the invading Chinese army and they defeated the Trung sisters and put Vietnam back under colonial control. According to Chinese history, the Trung sisters were executed. According to Vietnamese history, they committed suicide by drowning in a river to maintain their honor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Centuries later, the Trung sisters became heroes and the first Vietnamese nationalists. A seventh-century retelling imagines Tracs declaration to her army as putting her duty to country first over her duty to family:
> 
> Foremost, I will avenge my country,
> Second, I will restore the Hung lineage,
> Third, I will avenge the death of my husband,
> Lastly, I vow that these goals will be accomplished
> 
> As with all national heroes, the Trung sisters exploits have become epic over time. In one account, they kill a tiger that no one had been able to capture and then write their manifesto on its skin. Every February, there is a celebration held in their honor commemorating their martyrdoms. They remain unifying national heroes to the Vietnamese identify and their association with rebellion against invasion is still evoked today. This poignant video compares the Trung sisters rebellion against China almost two thousand years ago with the struggles of Vietnam in the twentieth century to regain independence from foreign occupiers.
> 
> Chick History: The Trung Sisters: Vietnams First Nationalists


----------



## ephone

That is why I have to say that vietnamese like you are just ignorant p.o.s..

China has donated tons of weapons, food, logistic support, trained your armies, sent army volunteers, a.k.a, regular armies, into vn to fight both French and U.S., while our own people were starved to death. 

Without China's protection and threat to direct mass intervention, U.S. would have direction gotten into northern vn and bombed the shxt out of those northern viet gong. 

you ungrateful bastards really deserved those bombs on your head. 




EastSea said:


> Early vn war, China against the France, *helping the n. vn* to shake hands with France to divide Vietnam in Geneva conference for Vietnam 1954. so France was first country in the west recognized Communist China of Mao.
> Later vn war, China against U.S., helping the n. vn only to 1968 to make his position to discuss with Nixon 1972 and normalization diplomacy relation with US, enemy of Vietnam in Vietnam war.
> Border conflict with vn during the 80s, is consequency of that China was backed Khmer Rouge in cambodia to attack Vietnam from 1976-1978. When Khmer Rouge was wiped out by Cambodia people with help of Vietnam. China droped his mask and himself attacke on Vietnam 1979.
> 
> 
> 
> Read my answer above, You can understand that why Vietnamese people look bad at Chinese CPC leaders (Mao, Dang Xiaoping ...) and such extremists in China.


----------



## Wholegrain

Vietnamese society is patrilineal and patriarchal. Surnames and property are inherited from the father and the man controls the house. The Le dynasty especially adopted Confucianism heavily after Ming rule in Vietnam. Dai Viet then invaded Champa, which was the real matrilineal society. In Champa, inheritence is passed through the female line and their society is matrilineal. Their women had more rights than Vietnamese women. When the Le dynasty invaded Vietnam in 1471, it used Confucian language like "spreading righteousness" to the "uncivilized" and "barbarian" Cham people. The Patriarchal and Patrilineal Vietnamese considered the Cham and their matrilineal practices and the freedom that they gave their women as barbaric.

Blood and Soil

Blood and Soil

The Flaming Womb

Societies, Networks, and Transitions: Volume I: A Global History

Encyclopaedia of the South-east Asian ethnography - Google knygos

Champa and the Archaeology of M&#7929; S¡n (Vietnam) - Google knygos

Law and the Chinese in Southeast Asia - Google knygos

The Nguyen lords dumped thousands of Chinese refugees from the Ming dynasty (Minh Huong) and their Vietnamese wives on Cham and Khmer land in southern Vietnam because they were afraid they would loose it to the "barbarian" Cham and khmer. 

And neither the Nguyen, Trinh, nor Mac lords declared themselves Emperor, they recognized the Le dynasty as their rulers so they considered themselves one country. When China was divided, all the rival rulers declared themselves Emperor and didn't recognize one dynasty as their ruler.



Viet said:


> okay, Chinese seem to have a different concept of nationalism. The Viet never called other Viet as foreigner, even in times when there were two Viet Kingdoms, the Nguyen (North) and the Trinh (South).





Viet said:


> Let me re-post this historic event of the rebellion of Trung sisters. As daughters of a noble Vietnamese family, the Trung sisters were in line to inherit their fathers land and titles. According to Chinese law, they could not.
> 
> 
> *The Tr&#432;ng sisters*
> Tr&#432;ng Tr&#7855;c (&#24501; &#20596 and Tr&#432;ng Nh&#7883; (&#24501; &#36019 | (ca. 12 - AD 43)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the male heroes bowed their heads in submission; &#8232;Only the two sisters proudly stood up to avenge the country. &#8232; - 15th century poem
> 
> For over a thousand years, the Chinese Han Dynasty ruled over Vietnam as a colonial power. Vietnam had resources, people, and most importantly, the Red River Delta. The Red River Delta is an area in the north of the country that was cultivated for wet rice production, was an important international trading port, and was the land from where the Vietnamese traced their origins. The Han Dynasty had been encroaching on the Lac Lords of Vietnam, the heads of the feudal system that was the foundation of Vietnamese culture. These were the landed aristocrats that had been the ruling noble class for over two millennia.
> 
> At first working together in trade and negotiations, the relationship grew authoritarian, and the Chinese began to tax, subjugate, and forcibly assimilate the Vietnamese into the Chinese Empire. By 111 BC, the Han Dynasty had complete control over Vietnam and had divided the kingdom into territories that were ruled by Chinese appointed governors.
> 
> Fast-forward 150 years to 39 AD and we meet one such Chinese governor, To Dinh, who ruled over the Me Linh prefecture. The Vietnamese Lord of this prefecture was General Lac, who had two daughters, Trung Trac and Trung Nhi. The two daughters grew up in a military household and were trained in the art of warfare, weaponry, and martial arts. When it came time for a marriage for the eldest daughter Trac, she married the son of the neighboring prefecture who also hailed from a military noble family. Together these two noble families created a powerful military alliance.
> 
> Chinas repressive regime, taxation of goods, imprisonment of uncooperative Vietnamese, and confiscation of lands was causing open hostility among the aristocracy and peasant populations. Most importantly for our heroines, the Chinese replaced the Vietnamese matriarchal family-system with its strict patriarchal system with rigid social control. This is the kiss of death for any society with any form of equality between the sexes. Just ask our friends Cleopatra and her daughter Selene.
> 
> As daughters of a noble Vietnamese family, the Trung sisters were in line to inherit their fathers land and titles. According to Chinese law, they could not. Then, the unthinkable happened. Tracs husband was executed for protesting a new tax imposed by To Dinh. Trac and Nhis inheritance, livelihood, and way of life were in jeopardy. Trac refused to go into mourning and instead she and her sister put all their military training to work and began mobilizing the remaining noblemen and peasants to their cause. Their goal was to oust Governor To Dinh and return Vietnam to an independent kingdom. They organized an army of 30,000 soldiers and led them into battle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In literature and art the Trung sisters charge into battle atop elephants with swords drawn. Surrounding them are the armies raised by the lords from their individual prefectures. At the head of these armies were the generals the Trung sisters chose to be commanders. Temples dedicated to the Trung sisters that remain today list the leaders and generals of their army. The majority of them are women, including their own mother. One of the generals was a woman named Phing Thi Chinh, who according to legend, gave birth during the revolution and would fight in battle with her newborn strapped to her back.
> 
> But why would so many follow two women? Trung Trac and Trung Nhi were also descendants of Lac Long Quân, the original Dragon Lord, the founder of the Vietnamese people. According to their creation myth, The Dragon Lords wife laid 100 eggs that would go on to become the 100 noble families of Vietnam. Trac and Nhis family were one of those elite. As a matriarchal society were women could hold equal ranking as men, following two women who claimed to be descendents of the Dragon Lord seemed like a no brainer.
> 
> Within several months, the Trung sisters had liberated 65 northern citadels in Vietnam and ousted the repressive governor. Trac now commanded an army of 80,000 soldiers. She proclaimed herself Queen of an independent Vietnam and established her capital in her hometown at Me Linh. Some records indicate Nhi was the better warrior. If this is true, it would seem that the Trung sisters followed the typical royal family model of the eldest child being crowned monarch and the younger child named commander of the nations army. Other accounts tell us that the two sisters ruled as co-regents of the newly independent Vietnam.
> 
> Tracs reign was dedicated to restoring Vietnam back to its traditional ways. She immediately ended all tributary taxes to China, distributed the treasury of the governor back to the Lac Lords, and attempted to return to a feudal political system. For almost three years, the Trung sisters successfully fought and held off the Chinese, who were not going to give up the Red River Delta so easily.
> 
> In 43 AD, the Chinese sent a new General Marshal Ma Yuan to deal with the Trung Sisters. This time, the Han Emperor put all his resources into the army and taking back Vietnam. Many of the original lords and supporters of the Trung Sisters had returned to their land, taking their armies with them. What was left was no match for the invading Chinese army and they defeated the Trung sisters and put Vietnam back under colonial control. According to Chinese history, the Trung sisters were executed. According to Vietnamese history, they committed suicide by drowning in a river to maintain their honor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Centuries later, the Trung sisters became heroes and the first Vietnamese nationalists. A seventh-century retelling imagines Tracs declaration to her army as putting her duty to country first over her duty to family:
> 
> Foremost, I will avenge my country,
> Second, I will restore the Hung lineage,
> Third, I will avenge the death of my husband,
> Lastly, I vow that these goals will be accomplished
> 
> As with all national heroes, the Trung sisters exploits have become epic over time. In one account, they kill a tiger that no one had been able to capture and then write their manifesto on its skin. Every February, there is a celebration held in their honor commemorating their martyrdoms. They remain unifying national heroes to the Vietnamese identify and their association with rebellion against invasion is still evoked today. This poignant video compares the Trung sisters rebellion against China almost two thousand years ago with the struggles of Vietnam in the twentieth century to regain independence from foreign occupiers.
> 
> Chick History: The Trung Sisters: Vietnams First Nationalists

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## Wholegrain

sahaliyan said:


> No,most Southern Chinese are natives,for example in Guangdong,at least 40% of their paternal lineage and 80% maternal line are netive.O1-M119 make up 30% of Zhejiang males,while less than 4% of northern Chinese
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·Ö×ÓÈËÀàÑ§ÂÛÌ³ - Powered by Discuz!


 @EastSea

Do you know how to do math?

40% of Guangdong (Cantonese) paternal lineage being native, means that 60% of their paternal lineage is from northern Han people. 

30% of Zhejiang paternal lineage being native, means that 70% of their paternal lineage is from northern Han.

That means in both cases, the majority of their paternal ancestry (from their father's side) is from northern Han people.

That's exactly what it said in the links I posted.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google knygos

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google knygos

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## sahaliyan

Wholegrain said:


> @EastSea
> 
> Do you know how to do math?
> 
> 40% of Guangdong (Cantonese) paternal lineage being native, means that 60% of their paternal lineage is from northern Han people.
> 
> 30% of Zhejiang paternal lineage being native, means that 70% of their paternal lineage is from northern Han.
> 
> That means in both cases, the majority of their paternal ancestry (from their father's side) is from northern Han people.
> 
> That's exactly what it said in the links I posted.
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google knygos
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google knygos


Autosomal DNA is more important to a person(because this will influence your look),one person has both father and mother
Of a Chinese went to Africa and mixed with Africans generations,Do you consider his descendants Chinese?


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## EastSea

ephone said:


> That is why I have to say that vietnamese like you are just ignorant p.o.s..
> 
> China has donated tons of weapons, food, logistic support, trained your armies, sent army volunteers, a.k.a, regular armies, into vn to fight both French and U.S., while our own people were starved to death.
> 
> Without China's protection and threat to direct mass intervention, U.S. would have direction gotten into northern vn and bombed the shxt out of those northern viet gong.
> 
> you ungrateful bastards really deserved those bombs on your head.



there was cold war, Taiwan was protected by US, member of UN, China used Vietnam war to figting against US to last Vietnamese. To kiss @ of US China attacked Soviet 1969 and stopped help to Vietnam to send signals to US to shake hands with US in back of Vietnam 1972 when war was going on brutally. 

North VN was not puppet of China, Communists Vietnam won US and re-unified Vietnam, because the Help of Soviets and socialist countries until end of war 1975. Its was much more, bigger than China. But they didn't calculated like idiot Chinese, policy smuggler.

Chinese traitor with her betrayal policy don't have moral-right to talk about morality of humankind.

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## Wholegrain

sahaliyan said:


> Autosomal DNA is more important to a person(because this will influence your look),one person has both father and mother
> Of a Chinese went to Africa and mixed with Africans generations,Do you consider his descendants Chinese?



This is the way we trace our ancestry, both Manchu and Han bannermen during Qing times inherited their status from their father.

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## EastSea

sahaliyan said:


> Autosomal DNA is more important to a person(because this will influence your look),one person has both father and mother
> Of a Chinese went to Africa and mixed with Africans generations,Do you consider his descendants Chinese?



I think your comment posted in your last post above is reasonable. As human being, Without mixing humankind doesn't exist on earth up to now, should been disappeared like Neanderthals or Neandertals people in the past.

You have an interesting question, chinese man are engaged marriage with Africans, I think, the children's characters or DNA (look like) should be dominated to African.


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> I think your comment posted in your last post above is reasonable. As human being, Without mixing humankind doesn't exist on earth up to now, should been disappeared like Neanderthals or Neandertals people in the past.
> 
> You have an interesting question, chinese man are engaged marriage with Africans, I think, the children's characters or DNA (look like) should be dominated to African.



Then all the Minh Huong Chinese in Vietnam should look like Vietnamese, since their ancestors married Vietnamese women.


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## Zero_wing

Man your really good on making enemies well typical chinese racist to the core like it matters? 

In the world were character is basically the reference to judge people you people simply belongs to the stone age.


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## BoXilai

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> More propaganda bullsh1t, the ancient Chinese didn't dress like that, this is the dress of the much later Qing Dynasty.



You must be kidding. It's a picture you got from the Internet, it's not a picture in history book. Young artist can draws anything they want.

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## ephone

To pos like you, I have only pity.

After losing your "dear daddy" ussr, your leaders keep kowtowing to Beijing and kissing CCP's axx. Such kissing is just non-stopping. 

Well, we have already known what a bunch of ungrateful bastards you are. Now the relationship can only be purely based on interest. We will keep this vn dog at bay at all times.




EastSea said:


> there was cold war, Taiwan was protected by US, member of UN, China used Vietnam war to figting against US to last Vietnamese. To kiss @ of US China attacked Soviet 1969 and stopped help to Vietnam to send signals to US to shake hands with US in back of Vietnam 1972 when war was going on brutally.
> 
> North VN was not puppet of China, Communists Vietnam won US and re-unified Vietnam, because the Help of Soviets and socialist countries until end of war 1975. Its was much more, bigger than China. But they didn't calculated like idiot Chinese, policy smuggler.
> 
> Chinese traitor with her betrayal policy don't have moral-right to talk about morality of humankind.


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## EastSea

ephone said:


> To pos like you, I have only pity.
> 
> After losing your "dear daddy" ussr, your leaders keep kowtowing to Beijing and kissing CCP's axx. Such kissing is just non-stopping.
> 
> Well, we have already known what a bunch of ungrateful bastards you are. Now the relationship can only be purely based on interest. We will keep this vn dog at bay at all times.



Us control and use you like stupid mad dog, let you non-stopping barking, bite India 1963, Soviet 1969, Vietnam 1979 and non-stopping bark against Japan, Philippine, Vietnam recently.we have already known what kind of bastard dog you are, 

talking about interests, US fisher will get a fish when water is got waves in Asia. Stupid dog can not understand what he do.

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## Viet

djsjs said:


> vietnamnese.how many chinese festivals do you keep now?


I don´t know the exact number. The most famous one is Lunar New Year, we call Tet.




































T

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## ephone

What an idiot. If you try to write in English, learn the proper way at first.

As for U.S. controlled China in 1963, 1969 or 1979, good imagination. 

To teach mad dog like you a lesson, don't you see we have tighten the rope already in SCS???



EastSea said:


> Us control and use you like stupid mad dog, let you non-stopping barking, bite India 1963, Soviet 1969, Vietnam 1979 and non-stopping bark against Japan, Philippine, Vietnam recently.we have already known what kind of bastard dog you are,
> 
> talking about interests, US fisher will get a fish when water is got waves in Asia. Stupid dog can not understand what he do.


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## Viet

can any Chinese tell me in what year and country this painting below shows?


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## Wholegrain

Vietnamese viewed themselves as superior to the Indianized civilizations surrounding them, like the Cham, Khmer (Cambodians), Laotians, Thai, Javanese, and Malaysia.

You will find in Vietnamese historical records claiming that Java (in indonesia), Malacca (Malaysia), Ayutthaya (Thailand), Chiangmai (Thailand), Lan Xang (Laos), Cambodia, and Champa were all vassals and tributary states to Vietnam.

All other southeast asian civlizations except Vietnam were Indic influenced. The Burmese, Thai, Laotians, Cambodians, Cham, Malays, and Javanese use or used to use Indic scripts and they followed Hinduism and Buddhism. Some of them like the Malays and Javanese converted to Islam and switched to Arabic script but they still retained elements of Indic culture like Sanskrit words and divine kingship. Some Cham also converted to Islam. In Java some of the "Muslim" Sultans still practice animism mixed with Islam and believe in Goddesses like the Yogyakarta Sultan.

Vietnam was Sinitic (Chinese) influenced. It adopted Classical Chinese as its official language and used Chinese derived characters called Chu Nom to write Vietnamese language. It also adopted many loanwords from ancient Chinese and Confucianism. They called themselves Dai (Great) Viet and claimed their King was an Emperor. It looked down on the other Indic influenced southeast asians as barbarians and viewed their customs, like the Cham's matrilineal and matriarchal culture as barbaric.

Vietnam's foreign policy towards other southeast asian countries is influenced by this historical view. It views Laos as a puppet state. 

@gambit

Many Vietnamese internet warriors insult other southeast asians, calling them lazy and claiming that ethnic Chinese run their economies because they are inferior. They view Vietnamese as a superior race and think Vietnam should lord over other southeast asians. We see this behavior playing out in real life by the way Vietnam treats Laos.

You keep citing several internet trolls as evidence that China sees other asians as inferior, we see how Vietnam behaves in real life.

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## Pakchina

About Vietnam. History is US bombing of the North using chemical agents killing thousand of innocent women and children. Massacre and gratuitous killings of villagers by the US GI Joes. Chemical agents still affecting the population with newly born getting handicapped and cancer.

What I know now about Vietnam today from a recent trip to Ho Chi Minh in June 2013-Dynamic and resilient population. Dynamic Ho Chi Minh city with skyscrapers like Bitexco Tower and International Hotels. Vietnamese youth have good personality and nice appearance. Vietnamese in Ho Chi Minh are charming, welcoming, easy going, courteous and sociable people with many of them being of Chinese descent. Vietnamese in Ho Chi Minh look exactly like Mainland and Overseas Chinese. In Disctrict 7, there are genuine massage parlours with the most beautiful girls in the World. Vietnamese are indeed very gentle and modest people with good character.

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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> can any Chinese tell me in what year and country this painting below shows?



I only know the characters on the right, &#26481;&#20140; Tokyo 

Where do you get it?

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## gambit

Wholegrain said:


> Vietnamese viewed themselves as superior to the Indianized civilizations surrounding them, like the Cham, Khmer (Cambodians), Laotians, Thai, Javanese, and Malaysia.
> 
> You will find in Vietnamese historical records claiming that Java (in indonesia), Malacca (Malaysia), Ayutthaya (Thailand), Chiangmai (Thailand), Lan Xang (Laos) and Cambodia were all vassals and tributary states to Vietnam.
> 
> All other southeast asian civlizations except Vietnam were Indic influenced. The Burmese, Thai, Laotians, Cambodians, Cham, Malays, and Javanese use or used to use Indic scripts and they followed Hinduism and Buddhism. Some of them like the Malays and Javanese converted to Islam and switched to Arabic script but they still retained elements of Indic culture like Sanskrit words and divine kingship.
> 
> Vietnam was Sinitic (Chinese) influenced. It adopted Classical Chinese as its official language and used Chinese derived characters called Chu Nom to write Vietnamese language. It also adopted many loanwords from ancient Chinese and Confucianism. They called themselves Dai (Great) Viet and claimed their King was an Emperor. It looked down on the other Indic influenced southeast asians as barbarians and viewed their customs, like the Cham's matrilineal and matriarchal culture as barbaric.
> 
> Vietnam's foreign policy towards other southeast asian countries is influenced by this historical view. It views Laos as a puppet state.
> 
> @gambit
> 
> Many Vietnamese internet warriors insult other southeast asians, calling them lazy and claiming that ethnic Chinese run their economies because they are inferior. They view Vietnamese as a superior race and think Vietnam should lord over other southeast asians. We see this behavior playing out in real life by the way Vietnam treats Laos.
> 
> You keep citing several internet trolls as evidence that China sees other asians as inferior, we see how Vietnam behaves in real life.


Please...So now you are telling me that only Chinese Internet trolls are racists while the entirety of the Viets are? 

My physical appearance is that I am often mistaken for Mexican. Believe it.

See these MT China associates...???

China - Micron Technology, Inc.

When I was in Shanghai helping to set the place up, I experienced a little bit of Chinese racism against other Asians because enough of the locals thought I was Mexican and they felt a little more relaxed to express their opinions. The racism among many of the Chinese engineers I met is one of seriousness, as in they genuinely believes, just like the more sophisticated American Klansmen like David Duke or closeted Klansman like Pat Buchanan believes, that there are inherent racial intelligence and character differences among the world's peoples and that these differences are not reconcilable. The best those that are superior (supposedly) could do is to be kind to the inferior people, not hostile or even personally mean to them. Discipline them once in a while just like a parent would to a child so the inferior should know their place in the 'natural' order of life.

I left Shanghai without letting a single one of them know what I am -- a member of the 'inferior' Asiatic. And who just trained them on DRAM assembly line processes to boot. That was many years ago and am no longer with MT. Sometimes I wonder if any of them changed, but I really do not care if any of them do, although I do remember that at least one of our escorts, an older Chinese lady with a nice personality enough, did looked a bit embarrassed when one of these Chinese racist engineers, over a few drinks after duty hours, spilled what he thought of other Asiatics. I always suspect she knew what I was.

My white American co-workers, some of them are actually friends, if not close friends, wondered why I said nothing about myself. I told them I wanted them to know how the Chinese sees other Asiatics and that there is not racial solidarity and peace among Asians. A lot of people do view life through *FIRST* a racial/racist prism before they judge anyone else through any other filters. Asians are no different.

It is not enough that one group sees itself as superior to another and all others. It is equally important that what can and will that group do with whatever capabilities at its disposal. This is where politics comes in. There is nothing we can do against private racism other than education and persuasion. But in public politics and policies, this is where we must act and act other than persuasions should that method fail. International affairs are no different in this regard.

Under the pretense of territorial disputes, China as dominant power in Asia will start the next racial/racist based regional war. The Viets, the Laos, and the Cambodians will be the first to pay.

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## Wholegrain

gambit said:


> Please...So now you are telling me that only Chinese Internet trolls are racists while the entirety of the Viets are?
> 
> My physical appearance is that I am often mistaken for Mexican. Believe it.
> 
> See these MT China associates...???
> 
> China - Micron Technology, Inc.
> 
> When I was in Shanghai helping to set the place up, I experienced a little bit of Chinese racism against other Asians because enough of the locals thought I was Mexican and they felt a little more relaxed to express their opinions. The racism among many of the Chinese engineers I met is one of seriousness, as in they genuinely believes, just like the more sophisticated American Klansmen like David Duke or closeted Klansman like Pat Buchanan believes, that there are inherent racial intelligence and character differences among the world's peoples and that these differences are not reconcilable. The best those that are superior (supposedly) could do is to be kind to the inferior people, not hostile or even personally mean to them. Discipline them once in a while just like a parent would to a child so the inferior should know their place in the 'natural' order of life.
> 
> I left Shanghai without letting a single one of them know what I am -- a member of the 'inferior' Asiatic. And who just trained them on DRAM assembly line processes to boot. That was many years ago and am no longer with MT. Sometimes I wonder if any of them changed, but I really do not care if any of them do, although I do remember that at least one of our escorts, an older Chinese lady with a nice personality enough, did looked a bit embarrassed when one of these Chinese racist engineers, over a few drinks after duty hours, spilled what he thought of other Asiatics. I always suspect she knew what I was.
> 
> My white American co-workers, some of them are actually friends, if not close friends, wondered why I said nothing about myself. I told them I wanted them to know how the Chinese sees other Asiatics and that there is not racial solidarity and peace among Asians. A lot of people do view life through *FIRST* a racial/racist prism before they judge anyone else through any other filters. Asians are no different.
> 
> It is not enough that one group sees itself as superior to another and all others. It is equally important that what can and will that group do with whatever capabilities at its disposal. This is where politics comes in. There is nothing we can do against private racism other than education and persuasion. But in public politics and policies, this is where we must act and act other than persuasions should that method fail. International affairs are no different in this regard.
> 
> Under the pretense of territorial disputes, China as dominant power in Asia will start the next racial/racist based regional war. The Viets, the Laos, and the Cambodians will be the first to pay.



You look like a Mexican? And you are a refugee from the Vietnam war? You must be South Vietnamese. Your own Northern Vietnamese look down on Southern Vietnamese as inferior. 

On the lowest wrung in Vietnam, the ethnic minorities like the mountain and central highlands people are treated as slaves by ethnic Vietnamese Kinh. The Montagnards are still attacked and abused by Kinh settlers on their land.The Montagnards, Khmer, and Cham fought together in FULRO against both South and North Vietnam, both of them treated them like dirt. Southern Vietnamese Dictator Ngo Dinh Diem dumped tons of Vietnamese onto Montagnard land and its still being continued by the Vietnamese Communist Party. Vietnam also treated the Hmong like crap too.

Next, Vietnamese from the Mekong delta are looked down upon, they are seen as poor, dark skinned and the official Vietnamese media even fingers them out for exporting women to marry to foreigners (calling them "southwestern girls"), even though poor girls from all over Vietnam including the north, not just the Mekong delta marry foreigners.

All other Southern Vietnamese are on the next rung higher up. They are still viewed as darker skinned and having undesirable qualities in their manners and behavior by Northern Vietnamese.

And finally Northern Kinh Vietnamese are on the top, lording over the others in a hirearchy. They think their pale skin and manner of behavior is superior to everyone else. 

Lets not even start on how Vietnamese view other southeast asians outside their country. Many of them think other asians are scum.

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## gambit

Wholegrain said:


> You look like a Mexican? And you are a refugee from the Vietnam war? You must be South Vietnamese. Your own Northern Vietnamese look down on Southern Vietnamese as inferior.


My family is from the North. My grandfather took the clan south when the communists were busy with their slaughter in the North.

But really...This is nothing but a feeble distraction from the uncomfortable truth that China is a racist country no matter how racist other Asians may be and that China have the military means to start the next racial/racist war in Asia, just like Imperial Japan once did.


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## Wholegrain

gambit said:


> My family is from the North. My grandfather took the clan south when the communists were busy with their slaughter in the North.
> 
> But really...This is nothing but a feeble distraction from the uncomfortable truth that China is a racist country no matter how racist other Asians may be and that China have the military means to start the next racial/racist war in Asia, just like Imperial Japan once did.



The warmongerers are countries which are making arbitrary claims to already occupied and claimed islands like the Philippines. Vietnam is much more racist than China and you know it, even the Vietnamese Americans here all hate darker skinned people. They think Laotians, Cambodians, and Chams are inferior, we have all of those people livinig in America and in return they also have negative views of Vietnamese.

Its not just the Vietnamese people having negative attitudes towards other southeast asians, Vietnam's policy treats Laos like a vassal state.

China has not claimed one inch beyond the borders it set in the 1940s. It even gave up claims like Kachin state in Myanmar and Mongolia.

The Chinese media hardly mentions Vietnam.

On the other side, the Vietnamese media is obsessed with demonizing China and Chinese people. As if China is doing something that's pissing them off really badly, but they can't do anything about it so they lash out in their media. Whenever something bad happens its because of China according to the Vietnamese media.

Obsessed 'hell' of southwestern girls - News VietNamNet

Rural girls marry foreign men for filial duty - News VietNamNet

Analyzing Vietnam-China trade relations - News VietNamNet

Chinese merchants flock to Vietnam to collect farm produce - News VietNamNet

And that's just the English version of Vietnamese media.

And speaking of refugees from Northern Vietnam to Southern Vietnam, South Vietnamese dictator Ngo Dinh Diem dumped tons of people like your grandfather onto Montagnard land and dispossed them of their land. Seeing as both the Montagnards and the northern Vietnamese refugees were Catholic, it could only have been racially motivated. The Vietnamese Communist Party continues to disposess the Montagnards of their land.

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## armchairPrivate

There is nothing I want to know about Vietnam except how much for a pop.

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## EastSea

ephone said:


> What an idiot. If you try to write in English, learn the proper way at first.
> 
> As for U.S. controlled China in 1963, 1969 or 1979, good imagination.
> 
> To teach mad dog like you a lesson, don't you see we have tighten the rope already in SCS???



The mad has his imaginations when he bite his master Soviets 1969 and others peoples 1962, 1979, mad is soon ready to change his master, it's lesion in the cold war.

You can now run around in SCS, but other peoples in region ( included your new máster in cold w&#7843;r, USA) don't let you break a international fence.

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## ephone

ussr was your dear daddy. you forget that?

As for your other nonsense, it is not worth refuting even here.




EastSea said:


> The mad has his imaginations when he bite his master Soviets 1969 and others peoples 1962, 1979, mad is soon ready to change his master, it's lesion in the cold war.
> 
> You can now run around in SCS, but other peoples in region ( included your new máster in cold w&#7843;r, USA) don't let you break a international fence.


----------



## thesolar65

Viet said:


> *History of Vietnam or
> What do you want to know about Vietnam?*
> 
> 
> 
> Thread has been opened as there are increasing complaints by other members due to off-topic comments in numerous non-Vietnam related threads. Hope on fruitful discussions and contributions. All comments except insult are welcome.
> 
> @djsjs, I believe you wanted to see this thread a year ago.



To day only I read the entire discussion. But no where no body has asked to know the difference between food habits between you and Chinese or are they are similar. Our people loves a lot of Chinese foods (indianised in some parts). Do you have something special that Chinese do not have? What is the typical breakfast/lunch/dinner in a normal/middle class Vietnamese family?


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## ViXuyen

BoXilai said:


> You must be kidding. It's a picture you got from the Internet, it's not a picture in history book. Young artist can draws anything they want.


I like this pic. Viet Nam is the only battlefield that the Mongols ever lost a General. To up the ante a bit, the Mongols lost around 10 Generals during their campaigns in Viet Nam


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## EastSea

ephone said:


> ussr was your dear daddy. you forget that?
> 
> As for your other nonsense, it is not worth refuting even here.



USSR was our friend, same as Russia now. Forgotten that you learnt very hardly from ussr ?

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## Viet

StarCraft_ZT said:


> I only know the characters on the right, &#26481;&#20140; Tokyo
> 
> Where do you get it?


Tokyo?

The picture is one shown in an exhibit featuring precious paintings on Vietnamese traditional costumes and headdresses which were used by the royal members and commoners from Ly dynasty (1009-1225) to Nguyen dynasty (1802 -1945).

http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/12402/exhibit-features-paintings-on-ancient-costumes-headdresses



armchairPrivate said:


> There is nothing I want to know about Vietnam except how much for a pop.


you sound like a pyschopath.


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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> Tokyo?
> 
> The picture is one shown in an exhibit featuring precious paintings on Vietnamese traditional costumes and headdresses which were used by the royal members and commoners from Ly dynasty (1009-1225) to Nguyen dynasty (1802 -1945).
> 
> http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/12402/exhibit-features-paintings-on-ancient-costumes-headdresses
> 
> 
> you sound like a pyschopath.



Yes, I'm sure the two characters are &#26481;&#20140;, which means Tokyo, unless &#26481;&#20140; has other meanings only in Vietnam. I'm not a scholar, you had better refer to other Chinese member's opinion.

Oh...wait, I just googled, it's an old name of Hanoi. It also means north Vietnam. I found that &#26481;&#20140; in Vietnamese are written in &#272;ông Kinh. The pronunciation is similar to Chinese. 

Here is the link.

æ±äº¬ (è¶å) - ç»´åºç¾ç§ï¼èªç±çç¾ç§å¨ä¹¦

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## Viet

thesolar65 said:


> To day only I read the entire discussion. But no where no body has asked to know the difference between food habits between you and Chinese or are they are similar.
> 
> Our people loves a lot of Chinese foods (indianised in some parts). Do you have something special that Chinese do not have? What is the typical breakfast/lunch/dinner in a normal/middle class Vietnamese family?


Chinese and Vietnamese dishes are similar, we all eat with chopsticks. LOL
Seriouly speaking, Vietnamese food is much better than of from the northern neighbor as we adopted many from the southeastern countries Laos, Cambodia or Thailand.

Our national dish is Pho, that can be eaten all day.

Pho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






street food

























there are more goodies, pls check the list below






List of Vietnamese dishes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Viet

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Yes, I'm sure the two characters are &#26481;&#20140;, which means Tokyo, unless &#26481;&#20140; has other meanings only in Vietnam. I'm not a scholar, you had better refer to other Chinese member's opinion.
> 
> Oh...wait, I just googled, it's an old name of *Hanoi*. It also means north Vietnam. I found that &#26481;&#20140; in Vietnamese are written in &#272;ông Kinh. The pronunciation is similar to Chinese.
> 
> Here is the link.
> 
> æ±äº¬ (è¶&#352;å&#8212 - ç»´å&#376;ºç&#8482;¾ç§&#8216;ï¼&#338;è&#8225;ªç&#8221;±ç&#353;&#8222;ç&#8482;¾ç§&#8216;å&#8230;¨ä¹¦


Yes, it means Hanoi.
*
Thang Long ('Ascending Dragon') (former C&#7893; Loa, present Hà N&#7897;i) was also called &#272;ông Kinh (&#26481;&#20140, meaning 'Eastern Capital'. (&#26481;&#20140; is identical in meaning and written form in Chinese characters to that of Tokyo).[1][2]*

Tonkin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## thesolar65

Viet said:


> Chinese and Vietnamese dishes are similar, we all eat with chopsticks. LOL
> Seriouly speaking, Vietnamese food is much better than of from the northern neighbor as we adopted many from the southeastern countries Laos, Cambodia or Thailand.
> 
> Our national dish is Pho, that can be eaten all day.
> 
> Pho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> street food
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there are more goodies, pls check the list below
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of Vietnamese dishes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Kept some money to visit Singapore/Malaysia with family. But due to Rupee depreciation, postponed it. Now thinking again after the appreciation will go to Vietnam(Most of my friend have gone to those countries but not to Vietnam. But food must be only chicken related or Veg....is it plentifully available

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## Viet

thesolar65 said:


> Kept some money to visit Singapore/Malaysia with family. But due to Rupee depreciation, postponed it. Now thinking again after the appreciation will go to Vietnam(Most of my friend have gone to those countries but not to Vietnam.
> *But food must be only chicken related or Veg.*...is it plentifully available


no any problems. just tell the vendors that you want chicken or vegetable foods. how about this: Vietnamese Caramel Ginger Chicken (Ga Kho)

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> I (myself) never say that a Vietnamese and southern Chinese people (or Yue people, Cantonese, Min yue, wo yue ...etc) are brothers, they are No-Hans from Yangtze only. We don't shared same bloodline with them, we are Jingzu. You, southern Hans (?) look down at us, we look down at you in same way. Southern Han is not shared 100 % bloodline with true Han in Yangtze river area.
> 
> In the past we fought against our enemy, they should be Hans, southern Hans or any...if they invaded in to Vietnam.



You are right, the ancient Baiyue people look like these girls in the pics, they were indeed very different from the modern Viets, but many Fujianese and Cantonese are indeed closely related to them.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You are right, the ancient Baiyue people look like these girls in the pics, they were indeed very different from the modern Viets, but many Fujianese and Cantonese are indeed closely related to them.


ok, we all can stop discussion how similar we look and behave, and talk of how different we are. Actually Vietnam as nation started at the Red River delta, home of the L&#7841;c Vi&#7879;t (2524&#8211;258 BC), and slowly spead into other regions. 







Red River Delta


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> ok, we all can stop discussion how similar we look and behave, and talk of how different we are. Actually Vietnam as nation started at the Red River delta, home of the L&#7841;c Vi&#7879;t (2524&#8211;258 BC), and slowly spead into other regions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red River Delta



Baiyue was born within the modern Chinese territory, while the ancient Vietnamese was born outside of the boundary.

So everything is now crystal clear to me; Baiyue = Chinese, ancient Vietnamese = modern Vietnamese.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The famous HK actress Athena Chu also belongs to the Baiyue phenotype, but she does look nowhere close to a Viet girl.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The famous HK actress Athena Chu also belongs to the Baiyue phenotype, but she does look nowhere close to a Viet girl.


You are right. We look different like day and night.





Viet girl

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> You are right. We look different like day and night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viet girl



Not in contrast like day and night, but it is clearly that modern Chinese (including Baiyue) are East Asians, while Viets are Southeast Asians from a genetic perspective.

Why so many Viet members feel so ashamed with their SE Asian background? Nothing wrong being a SE Asian, just being proud who you are.

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## Fattyacids

Viet said:


> You are right. We look different like day and night.
> l



For non-East Asians, they can't tell. But we can tell the difference.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Fattyacids said:


> For non-East Asians, they can't tell. But we can tell the difference.



Over 80% of the Viets will look exotic in China.

I have already showed the southern phenotype of Chinese, but they still look quite different from the Viets.

So their dogmatic propaganda insisting that Viets originated in South China and having their lands getting annexed by Han Chinese was clearly wrong.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Baiyue was born within the modern Chinese territory, while the ancient Vietnamese was born outside of the boundary.
> 
> So everything is now crystal clear to me; Baiyue = Chinese, ancient Vietnamese = modern Vietnamese.


you are too fast. I now tell you the period before 2524 bc, the H&#7891;ng Bàng Dynasties.

*
The H&#7891;ng Bàng period (Vietnamese: th&#7901;i k&#7923; H&#7891;ng Bàng),[2] also called the H&#7891;ng Bàng Dynasty,[3] was a period in Vietnamese history spanning from the political union in 2879 BC of many tribes of the northern Red River Valley to the conquest by An D&#432;&#417;ng V&#432;&#417;ng in 258 BC.[4]

The Vietnamese name is the reading of Chinese characters "&#40251;&#40848;" assigned to this dynasty in early Vietnamese-written histories in Chinese. The meaning is a mythical giant bird.[7]

The dynasty, and its dating, is considered by Western academics as an example of "nationalist fictions".[8] According to some Vietnamese historians, although the dynasty could not be verified by historical evidence,[9] "a reasonable estimate of the time length for the Hong Bang period", is "about 250-300 years" before An D&#432;&#417;ng V&#432;&#417;ng.[9]
*
H

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> you are too fast. I now tell you the period before 2524 bc, the H&#7891;ng Bàng Dynasties.
> 
> *
> The H&#7891;ng Bàng period (Vietnamese: th&#7901;i k&#7923; H&#7891;ng Bàng),[2] also called the H&#7891;ng Bàng Dynasty,[3] was a period in Vietnamese history spanning from the political union in 2879 BC of many tribes of the northern Red River Valley to the conquest by An D&#432;&#417;ng V&#432;&#417;ng in 258 BC.[4]
> 
> The Vietnamese name is the reading of Chinese characters "&#40251;&#40848;" assigned to this dynasty in early Vietnamese-written histories in Chinese. The meaning is a mythical giant bird.[7]
> 
> The dynasty, and its dating, is considered by Western academics as an example of "nationalist fictions".[8] According to some Vietnamese historians, although the dynasty could not be verified by historical evidence,[9] "a reasonable estimate of the time length for the Hong Bang period", is "about 250-300 years" before An D&#432;&#417;ng V&#432;&#417;ng.[9]
> *
> H



The ancient Vietnamese was born on the border between the modern China and the northern part of the modern Vietnam, we respect your culture, but we still don't think that you have anything to do with the Baiyue from China.

We welcome you if you truly wanna embrace our culture, but you shouldn't keep denying your SE Asian background.

We even welcome whites to embrace our culture, but does it mean that they should deny their white/european root?

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## Fattyacids

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Over 80% of the Viets will look exotic in China.
> 
> I have already showed the southern phenotype of Chinese, but they still look quite different from the Viets.
> 
> So their dogmatic propaganda insisting that Viets originated in South China and having their lands getting annexed by Han Chinese was clearly wrong.



I'm here in Singapore, there are vietnamese here too. They look completely different from the Singaporean chinese who are mainly from Fujian and Guangzhou.

Chinese general Zhao Tuo's Nan Yue kingdom covers northern Vietnam before there was Vietnam. Northern vietnam should be chinese land in fact.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Fattyacids said:


> I'm here in Singapore, there are vietnamese here too. They look completely different from the Singaporean chinese who are mainly from Fujian and Guangzhou.
> 
> Chinese general Zhao Tuo's Nan Yue kingdom covers northern Vietnam before there was Vietnam. Northern vietnam should be chinese land in fact.



Baiyue culture was in fact one of the cultural heritages from China, i hope that we could maintain its rightful legacy and don't let it getting stolen by the Vietnamese Ultranationalists.

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## StarCraft_ZT

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You are right, the ancient Baiyue people look like these girls in the pics, they were indeed very different from the modern Viets, but many Fujianese and Cantonese are indeed closely related to them.



Have to say her hands are very evil

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## Fattyacids

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Baiyue culture was in fact one of the cultural heritages from China, i hope that we could maintain its rightful legacy and don't let it getting stolen by the Vietnamese Ultranationalists.



Baiyue refers to many tribes. "Bai" in chinese means hundred. If they were all vietnamese, it wouldn't be called Bai(hundred) yue

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You are right, the ancient Baiyue people look like these girls in the pics, they were indeed very different from the modern Viets, but many Fujianese and Cantonese are indeed closely related to them.



I agree with you. 


Another post of Chinese bro in this thread, I think his opinion is reasonable.



sahaliyan said:


> No,most Southern Chinese are natives,for example in Guangdong,at least 40% of their paternal lineage and 80% maternal line are netive.O1-M119 make up 30% of Zhejiang males,while less than 4% of northern Chinese
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ·Ö×ÓÈËÀàÑ§ÂÛÌ³ - Powered by Discuz!




and my early comment.



EastSea said:


> Vietnamese Kinh people from early ancient time, the earliest gradually moved from the Indonesian archipelago through the Malay Peninsula and Thailand until they settled on the edges of the Red River in the Tonkin Delta up to southern area of China... The Historians believe that from the Late Pleistocene Age (600,000-12,000 BC), ...




photos of typical Vietnamese girls. (if I don't have any mistake).


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## StarCraft_ZT

Stop posting women pictures, EastSea, this is not an appearance war.....

If you would like to continue, posting men's picture, we are all men. Then you upload your personal photo first. Haha, just kidding....

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Baiyue was born within the modern Chinese territory, while the ancient Vietnamese was born outside of the boundary.
> 
> So everything is now crystal clear to me; Baiyue = Chinese, ancient Vietnamese = modern Vietnamese.



Our history book, Original title	&#22823;&#36234;&#21490;&#35352;&#20840;&#26360; is stated that: our people is outside of Bai Yue, our land north point reached to Dong Ding Lake in China. 



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Not in contrast like day and night, but it is clearly that modern Chinese (including Baiyue) are East Asians, while Viets are Southeast Asians from a genetic perspective.
> 
> Why so many Viet members feel so ashamed with their SE Asian background? Nothing wrong being a SE Asian, just being proud who you are.



Vietnamese is belong to South East Asia people. We proud for that. Don't lie.

In Vietnam is printed the book, " The Malayo Original roots of Vietnamese Nation" ( Ngu&#7891;n g&#7889;c Mã Lai c&#7911;a dân t&#7897;c Viet Nam".



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Over 80% of the Viets will look exotic in China.
> 
> I have already showed the southern phenotype of Chinese, but they still look quite different from the Viets.
> 
> So their dogmatic propaganda insisting that Viets originated in South China and having their lands getting annexed by Han Chinese was clearly wrong.



You are Wo Yue_ren as I know. Your ancient country founded by Cou Jian. You are Sinezed.



Fattyacids said:


> I'm here in Singapore, there are vietnamese here too. They look completely different from the Singaporean chinese who are mainly from Fujian and Guangzhou.
> 
> Chinese general Zhao Tuo's Nan Yue kingdom covers northern Vietnam before there was Vietnam. Northern vietnam should be chinese land in fact.



Southern Chinese and Vietnamese are two different race or ethnic.

Zhao Tuo created Nan Yue Guo, and then he attacked on Âu L&#7841;c, annexed our land to Nan Yue Guo.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Baiyue culture was in fact one of the cultural heritages from China, i hope that we could maintain its rightful legacy and don't let it getting stolen by the Vietnamese Ultranationalists.



Baiyue culture ís going to dísappear if you, Yue people cant regain your independence from rule of Hans.

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## EastSea

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Stop posting women pictures, EastSea, this is not an appearance war.....
> 
> If you would like to continue, posting men's picture, we are all men. Then you upload your personal photo first. Haha, just kidding....



Ok man. Here is for you.


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## Viet

Pakchina said:


> About Vietnam. History is US bombing of the North using chemical agents killing thousand of innocent women and children. Massacre and gratuitous killings of villagers by the US GI Joes. Chemical agents still affecting the population with newly born getting handicapped and cancer.
> 
> What I know now about Vietnam today from a recent trip to Ho Chi Minh in June 2013-Dynamic and resilient population. Dynamic Ho Chi Minh city with skyscrapers like *Bitexco *Tower and International Hotels. Vietnamese youth have good personality and nice appearance. Vietnamese in Ho Chi Minh are charming, welcoming, easy going, courteous and sociable people with many of them being of Chinese descent.
> 
> Vietnamese in Ho Chi Minh look exactly like Mainland and Overseas Chinese. In Disctrict 7, there are genuine massage parlours with the most beautiful girls in the World. Vietnamese are indeed very gentle and modest people with good character.


thank you for the post (except the part of with massage parlours... LOL). Actually we don´t have bad feelings towards our previous enemies... old days, luckily long gone, opponents yesterday, friends today.

Despite Vietnam still face many challenges, I am pretty sure, we can manage that. As for Bitexco Financial Tower, it is really beautiful, especially at night.

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## Wholegrain

ViXuyen said:


> I like this pic. Viet Nam is the only battlefield that the Mongols ever lost a General. To up the ante a bit, the Mongols lost around 10 Generals during their campaigns in Viet Nam



The Mongols lost the war to the Chinese Tran dynasty.  The Tran Prince who defeated the Mongols even knew how to speak Chinese and could perfectly imitate a Chinese monk

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

The Tran dynasty paid tribute to the Ming and behaved like a loyal vassal state.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Another post of Chinese bro in this thread, I think his opinion is reasonable.



His own data shows that the majority of southern Han paternal lineage (from the father's side) is from northern Han, while their maternal lineage (from their mother) is native Baiyue. 



EastSea said:


> Our history book, Original title	&#22823;&#36234;&#21490;&#35352;&#20840;&#26360; is stated that: our people is outside of Bai Yue, our land north point reached to Dong Ding Lake in China.
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnamese is belong to South East Asia people. We proud for that. Don't lie.
> 
> In Vietnam is printed the book, " The Malayo Original roots of Vietnamese Nation" ( Ngu&#7891;n g&#7889;c Mã Lai c&#7911;a dân t&#7897;c Viet Nam".
> 
> 
> 
> You are Wo Yue_ren as I know. Your ancient country founded by Cou Jian. You are Sinezed.
> 
> 
> 
> Southern Chinese and Vietnamese are two different race or ethnic.
> 
> Zhao Tuo created Nan Yue Guo, and then he attacked on Âu L&#7841;c, annexed our land to Nan Yue Guo.
> 
> 
> 
> Baiyue culture ís going to dísappear if you, Yue people cant regain your independence from rule of Hans.



The majority of Cantonese, Fujianese and residents of Zhejiang and other southern provinces are descended from northern Han who moved to Guangdong after the fall of the Han dynasty. During the Eastern Jin dynasty and during the Tang dynasty, millions of northern Han fled to southern China. You are a massive liar. 

Portrait of a Community

Portrait of a Community

In the Shadow of the Han

A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google knygos

Southern Han are descended from northern Han who moved south and married the native Baiyue women, this is why the southern Han y Chromosome (inherited from the father) is extremely close to northern Han Y chromosome, but the mtdna (inherited from the mother) and autosomal DNA is different.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html



European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages








*The Y chromosome haplogroup and subclade among different groups of East Asians.*

We have pureblooded Baiyue descendants who were not mixed. They are the natives of southern China.

Tanka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fuzhou Tanka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## ephone

When stalin showed his tendency to control China, Chairman told him to fxxk off. 

both vn and nk are double-faced ignorant fxxk. they licked the axx of ussr while it was powerful and can sent them support.

while ussr collapsed, both p.o.s. came back to kowtow to Beijing for food, money and support. 

Both are worse than dogs. Even dogs have their loyalty. 



EastSea said:


> USSR was our friend, same as Russia now. Forgotten that you learnt very hardly from ussr ?

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> 
> Another post of Chinese bro in this thread, I think his opinion is reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and my early comment.
> 
> 
> 
> photos of typical Vietnamese girls. (if I don't have any mistake).



Vietnamese girl looks Malay, not Baiyue, but don't get me wrong, Malay girls can be very beautiful looking.


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## ViXuyen

Wholegrain said:


> The Mongols lost the war to the Chinese Tran dynasty.  The Tran Prince who defeated the Mongols even knew how to speak Chinese and could perfectly imitate a Chinese monk
> 
> A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
> 
> Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books
> 
> The Tran dynasty paid tribute to the Ming and behaved like a loyal vassal state.


Which Tran Prince who defeated the Mongols could speak Chinese? Spare me your secondary sources crap. Stop giving me secondary amateur sources will ya? If having 0.0000001% Chinese blood is considered as the "Chinese" Tran dynasty then I guess I have to call myself as "Cham" since highly likely I have Cham blood  Let me remind you that the Chinese with 100% Chinese blood lost badly to the Mongols

The Chinese Tang dynasty on the other hand is 75% Turkic blood especially Taizong LOL; that's the real deal The Tang dynasty is mostly a Turkic dynasty

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## TruthSeeker

Why do the Vietnamese still tolerate Communist rule? I would have thought that, by now, the inherent Vietnamese values of family, personal self-reliance and entrepreneurial excellence would have won out!??


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## ViXuyen

Regarding Vietnamese phenotypes, I would say we're very diverse looking ranging from East Asian, Mainland Southeast Asian, maritime SE Asian, Hispanic, to mixed with Caucasian. Not just Vietnamese but I would say most SE Asian are very diverse looking. The only Asian that have the "yo all look the same" is the East Asian groups.

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## Wholegrain

ViXuyen said:


> Which Tran Prince who defeated the Mongols could speak Chinese? Spare me your secondary sources crap. Stop giving me secondary amateur sources will ya? If having 0.0000001% Chinese blood is considered as the "Chinese" Tran dynasty then I guess I have to call myself as "Cham" since highly likely I have Cham blood  Let me remind you that the Chinese with 100% Chinese blood lost badly to the Mongols
> 
> The Chinese Tang dynasty on the other hand is 75% Turkic blood especially Taizong LOL; that's the real deal The Tang dynasty is mostly a Turkic dynasty



In China and Vietnam, descent is traced through the father. Both China and Vietnam are patriarchal and patrilineal. The Tang Emperor's paternal line (through their father) is Chinese, their mothers were Xianbei (who were either Turkic or Mongolic). The Tang Emperors claimed direct paternal desent from Laozi. 

You have a massive population of ethnic Chinese (Minh Huong) who are descended from Chinese only in the male line through their father, their mother's lineage is Vietnamese and they've been breeding in Vietnam for over 400 years, so they should be 0.000000000000001% Chinese. And you still regard them as Chinese and EastSea even said that they are registered by their father's lineage today.

The Tran Emperors were descended from Chinese in their paternal line through their fathers. Their clan origin is from Fujian in China and not Vietnam.

The Ottoman Sultans had Serbian, Greek, Romanian, and Ruthenian wives. They didn't marry Turkish wives. Since they married these non-Turkish women for over 500 years and their heirs were born through those women, the Sultans were 0.0000000001% Turkish blood only in the paternal line. And they were still called Turkish.

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## ViXuyen

Wholegrain said:


> In China and Vietnam, descent is traced through the father. Both China and Vietnam are patriarchal and patrilineal. The Tang Emperor's paternal line (through their father) is Chinese, their mothers were Xianbei (who were either Turkic or Mongolic). The Tang Emperors claimed direct paternal desent from Laozi.
> 
> You have a massive population of ethnic Chinese (Minh Huong) who are descended from Chinese only in the male line through their father, their mother's lineage is Vietnamese and they've been breeding in Vietnam for over 400 years, so they should be 0.000000000000001% Chinese. And you still regard them as Chinese and EastSea even said that they are registered by their father's lineage today.
> 
> The Tran Emperors were descended from Chinese in their paternal line through their fathers. Their clan origin is from Fujian in China and not Vietnam.
> 
> The Ottoman Sultans had Serbian, Greek, Romanian, and Ruthenian wives. They didn't marry Turkish wives. Since they married these non-Turkish women for over 500 years and their heirs were born through those women, the Sultans were 0.0000000001% Turkish blood only in the paternal line. And they were still called Turkish.


Nobody cares if you claim from your paternal or maternal from your culture, what defines your ethnicity is the % of your blood. The Tran dynasty had 0.000001% Chinese blood in them while 99.99999% is Vietnamese blood so no nutcase would make a claim that a person who is 99.09999% Vietnamese by blood is a chinaman. Your Tang dynasty is 75% Turkic blood so it is nothing but a bunch of Turks who ruled China. On the other hand, you won't even find one Vietnamese dynasty or leader who has more than 5% Chinese blood in them. 

What defines you as a Chinese in Viet Nam is both your parents must be Chinese and that is the ethnic Hoa. The Minh Huong is a term that refers to a group of Vietnamese who once had a Chinese ancestor in them some hundreds of years ago so they would be again 99.999% blood by Vietnamese with a drop of Chinese in them. You Chinese sure have a wonderful way of defining ethnicity, as long as person has 0.00000001% Chinese blood in them then that person is a chinaman. WTF

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## StarCraft_ZT

EastSea said:


> Ok man. Here is for you.



Happy family? The people left side pretend to be elder, actually they are young, I'm sure...


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> His own data shows that the majority of southern Han paternal lineage (from the father's side) is from northern Han, while their maternal lineage (from their mother) is native Baiyue.
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of Cantonese, Fujianese and residents of Zhejiang and other southern provinces are descended from northern Han who moved to Guangdong after the fall of the Han dynasty. During the Eastern Jin dynasty and during the Tang dynasty, millions of northern Han fled to southern China. You are a massive liar.
> 
> Portrait of a Community
> 
> Portrait of a Community
> 
> In the Shadow of the Han
> 
> A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google knygos
> 
> Southern Han are descended from northern Han who moved south and married the native Baiyue women, this is why the southern Han y Chromosome (inherited from the father) is extremely close to northern Han Y chromosome, but the mtdna (inherited from the mother) and autosomal DNA is different.
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf
> 
> Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html
> 
> 
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Y chromosome haplogroup and subclade among different groups of East Asians.*
> 
> We have pureblooded Baiyue descendants who were not mixed. They are the natives of southern China.
> 
> Tanka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Fuzhou Tanka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Read again the post of your countryman, he stated:

"No, most Southern Chinese are natives, for example in Guangdong, at least 40% of their paternal lineage and 80% maternal line are netive.O1-M119 make up 30% of Zhejiang males,while less than 4% of northern Chinese."

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...want-know-about-vietnam-11.html#ixzz2cqmCg214

I think he is objectively understand this matter. The testing for DNA is base on servey to random assess to samples, it was not collected DNA from all Cantonese. When Y chromosome haplogroup of Hans is existed in 60 % of collected samples, the rest of samples 40 % were their paternal lineage from native (Nan Yue) man. With other words 40 % of Cantonese are native Nan Yue_ren or 40 Millions native Nan Yue_ren living to day in Guang Dong province of China. 

Your are stupid, that why another your countryman said to yo "f***k of from his comment". Do you remember ?

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## ViXuyen

EastSea said:


> Read again the post of your countryman, he stated:
> 
> "No, most Southern Chinese are natives, for example in Guangdong, at least 40% of their paternal lineage and 80% maternal line are netive.O1-M119 make up 30% of Zhejiang males,while less than 4% of northern Chinese."
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...want-know-about-vietnam-11.html#ixzz2cqmCg214
> 
> I think he is objectively understand this matter. The testing for DNA is base on servey to random assess to samples, it was not collected DNA from all Cantonese. When Y chromosome haplogroup of Hans is existed in 60 % of collected samples, the rest of samples 40 % were their paternal lineage from native (Nan Yue) man. With other words 40 % of Cantonese are native Nan Yue_ren or 40 Millions native Nan Yue_ren living to day in Guang Dong province of China.
> 
> Your are stupid, that why another your countryman said to yo "f***k of from his comment". Do you remember ?


These Chinese will deny their own DNA/their own ancestors

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## EastSea

ephone said:


> When stalin showed his tendency to control China, Chairman told him to fxxk off.
> 
> both vn and nk are double-faced ignorant fxxk. they licked the axx of ussr while it was powerful and can sent them support.
> 
> while ussr collapsed, both p.o.s. came back to kowtow to Beijing for food, money and support.
> 
> Both are worse than dogs. Even dogs have their loyalty.



China is typical double face ignorant, betrayal in policy, you kiss @ of Stalin and Soviet, socialist countries to help you win on civil war in China. You betrayed all of your allies in cold war. China used NK and Vietnam like black chess to bargain with USA to open fence to mad dog run out to relax. But I reminder you that don't run out too far.

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## peaceful

Every year, tens of thousands of vietnamese risk their lives to illegally cross the Chinese border to work in China and earn the Chinese minimum wage. Source here:

China's Immigration Problem - Forbes

At first, I didn't realize the rationale behind this, I mean why vietnamese would rather move to an enemy state and work there. The I saw this, a small small city called Nan Ning on the border, it answers all my questions. 

Nan Ning Cityscapes &#21335;&#23425;, Guangxi Province - Page 7 - SkyscraperCity

You have to question the regime why they failed vietnam so badly.

History of Vietnam? Sure, let's go back to the morning of 1984-07-12 when over 3700 vietnamese troops were eliminated by the PLA with almost zero PLA casualty. 

You have to question the regime in Vietnam why this incident is still regarded as a national secret. 3700 vietnamese died for its nation, yet as of today their deaths are still considered as a secret!


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## peaceful

EastSea said:


> China is typical double face ignorant, betrayal in policy, you kiss @ of Stalin and Soviet, socialist countries to help you win on civil war in China. You betrayed all of your allies in cold war. China used NK and Vietnam like black chess to bargain with USA to open fence to mad dog run out to relax. But I reminder you that don't run out too far.



You forgot one very very important aspect: for the vast majority of the human history, we lead the world.

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## ViXuyen

peaceful said:


> Every year, tens of thousands of vietnamese risk their lives to illegally cross the Chinese border to work in China and earn the Chinese minimum wage. Source here:
> 
> China's Immigration Problem - Forbes
> 
> At first, I didn't realize the rationale behind this, I mean why vietnamese would rather move to an enemy state and work there. The I saw this, a small small city called Nan Ning on the border, it answers all my questions.
> 
> Nan Ning Cityscapes &#21335;&#23425;, Guangxi Province - Page 7 - SkyscraperCity
> 
> You have to question the regime why they failed vietnam so badly.


There are Vietnamese workers in china because chinese businesses lowball the wages, not because chinese workers don't want to earn their minimum wages. For a country that its citizens sell organs to get an Iphone, for sure there ain't jobs to spare even if it is a minimum wage job



peaceful said:


> Every year, tens of thousands of vietnamese risk their lives to illegally cross the Chinese border to work in China and earn the Chinese minimum wage. Source here:
> 
> China's Immigration Problem - Forbes
> 
> At first, I didn't realize the rationale behind this, I mean why vietnamese would rather move to an enemy state and work there. The I saw this, a small small city called Nan Ning on the border, it answers all my questions.
> 
> Nan Ning Cityscapes &#21335;&#23425;, Guangxi Province - Page 7 - SkyscraperCity
> 
> You have to question the regime why they failed vietnam so badly.
> 
> History of Vietnam? Sure, let's go back to the morning of 1984-07-12 when over 3700 vietnamese troops were eliminated by the PLA with almost zero PLA casualty.
> 
> You have to question the regime in Vietnam why this incident is still regarded as a national secret. 3700 vietnamese died for its nation, yet as of today their deaths are still considered as a secret!


3700 Vietnamese troops died in one battle? Sure, it is a "secret" to this day because there is no secret to begin with when no Viet believe in this b.s

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## ViXuyen

For the entire second Sino-Viet war, Viet Nam lost 1700 troops and now you claim that 3700 Viet troops died in one battle; you can't expect us to buy this kind of crap.

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## vK_man

ViXuyen said:


> For the entire second Sino-Viet war, Viet Nam lost 1700 troops and now you claim that 3700 Viet troops died in one battle; you can't expect us to buy this kind of crap.



That's why we call them 50 cent army..

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## Viet

ephone said:


> When stalin showed his tendency to control China, Chairman told him to fxxk off.
> both vn and nk are *double-faced *ignorant fxxk. they licked the axx of ussr while it was powerful and can sent them support.
> while ussr collapsed, both p.o.s. came back to kowtow to Beijing for food, money and support.
> 
> Both are worse than dogs. Even dogs have their loyalty.


amazing...look yourself at a mirror, double-faced suits more to your character during the war. China´s goal was to keep Vietnam weak and divided (Korean model), while Vietnam wanted to expell the Americans and seek re-unification. Only the Soviets delivered what North Vietnam needed to win the war.

Ho Chi Minh knew that.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> *Vietnamese girl looks Malay,* not Baiyue, but don't get me wrong, Malay girls can be very beautiful looking.


Viet girls look like Malaysian ones? really? I just wonder why horde of Chinese seek brides in Vietnam and not in Malaysia?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> Viet girls look like Malaysian ones? really? I just wonder why horde of Chinese seek brides in Vietnam and not in Malaysia?



Only the poor Chinese peasants who can't get a wife go after the Vietnamese brides.

So it is easier to marry a Vietnamese bride than a Malaysian one.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Only the poor *Chinese peasants* who can't get a wife go after the Vietnamese brides.
> So it is easier to marry a Vietnamese bride than a Malaysian one.


poor Chinese seem to be in million if not even in tens of millions, because Chinese girls expect future husbands to have job, house and a lot of money. by the way, have you ever been in Vietnam and Malaysia? what is the difference of Viet and Malay school girls?


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## EastSea

peaceful said:


> Every year, tens of thousands of vietnamese risk their lives to illegally cross the Chinese border to work in China and earn the Chinese minimum wage. Source here:
> 
> China's Immigration Problem - Forbes
> 
> At first, I didn't realize the rationale behind this, I mean why vietnamese would rather move to an enemy state and work there. The I saw this, a small small city called Nan Ning on the border, it answers all my questions.
> 
> Nan Ning Cityscapes &#21335;&#23425;, Guangxi Province - Page 7 - SkyscraperCity
> 
> You have to question the regime why they failed vietnam so badly.
> 
> History of Vietnam? Sure, let's go back to the morning of 1984-07-12 when over 3700 vietnamese troops were eliminated by the PLA with almost zero PLA casualty.
> 
> You have to question the regime in Vietnam why this incident is still regarded as a national secret. 3700 vietnamese died for its nation, yet as of today their deaths are still considered as a secret!



Don't troll idiot gays, 
Chinese in Africa: Chinese Men Marry African Wife


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## EastSea

Viet said:


> poor Chinese seem to be in million if not even in tens of millions, because Chinese girls expect future husbands to have job, house and a lot of money. by the way, have you ever been in Vietnam and Malaysia? what is the difference of Viet and Malay school girls?


 @Viet+; no need to say like that. Let chinese go to Malaisia and to Africa to do their job as Human trafficker, let our rural area girls in peace.


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## Apothecary

I got a question. 

What's the oldest surviving literary work in vietnam and what does it say?


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## EastSea

peaceful said:


> You forgot one very very important aspect: for the vast majority of the human history, we lead the world.



What kind of brainwashed boy you are.

Chinese were ruled by Mongolian and Manchus, Japanese etc... recently.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

ViXuyen said:


> 3700 Vietnamese troops died in one battle? Sure, it is a "secret" to this day because there is no secret to begin with when no Viet believe in this b.s



Vietnam only claimed more than 600 deaths on the first night and didn't say the total at the end, but 3700 casualties was not impossible since China fired nearly 1.9 million mortar shells into Vietnam, often at the rate of more than 61,000 a day, you can imagine the probability of hit with this devastating quantities. Interestingly I didn't aware of this battle beside 1979

Vietnam remembers martyrs of 1984 China war

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> What kind of brainwashed boy you are.
> 
> Chinese were ruled by Mongolian and Manchus, Japanese etc... recently.


1. Mongolian (Golden Family)and Manchrrian were/are Chinese.
2. Japanese never rule the Whole China like they did to Vietnam.
3. Stop repeat the same nonsenses.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> 1. Mongolian (Golden Family)and Manchrrian were/are Chinese.
> 2. Japanese never rule the Whole China like they did to Vietnam.
> 3. Stop repeat the same nonsenses.


actually whoever ruled China, foreigners or not, they became Chinese as soon as the rulers including their territories became annexed and sinized. correct?


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## EastSea

peaceful said:


> You forgot one very very important aspect: for the vast majority of the human history, we lead the world.





KirovAirship said:


> 1. Mongolian (Golden Family)and Manchrrian were/are Chinese.
> 2. Japanese never rule the Whole China like they did to Vietnam.
> 3. Stop repeat the same nonsenses.



You both share the fate with your flags:

1. Manchus sold you Hongkong NanYue_ren to Britan , you were slaves of UK.
2. Japan won on First Sino-Japan war and Taiwan was part of Japan Empere. You were humiliated again by Japan in WW II.
3. Stop tell such joke like " vast majority of the human history, we lead the world ", its wet dream.

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## Wholegrain

ViXuyen said:


> Nobody cares if you claim from your paternal or maternal from your culture, what defines your ethnicity is the % of your blood. The Tran dynasty had 0.000001% Chinese blood in them while 99.99999% is Vietnamese blood so no nutcase would make a claim that a person who is 99.09999% Vietnamese by blood is a chinaman. Your Tang dynasty is 75% Turkic blood so it is nothing but a bunch of Turks who ruled China. On the other hand, you won't even find one Vietnamese dynasty or leader who has more than 5% Chinese blood in them.
> 
> What defines you as a Chinese in Viet Nam is both your parents must be Chinese and that is the ethnic Hoa. The Minh Huong is a term that refers to a group of Vietnamese who once had a Chinese ancestor in them some hundreds of years ago so they would be again 99.999% blood by Vietnamese with a drop of Chinese in them. You Chinese sure have a wonderful way of defining ethnicity, as long as person has 0.00000001% Chinese blood in them then that person is a chinaman. WTF



It's really hard to find Chinese women in Vietnam. Those Ming Chinese refugees who became Minh Huong were fleeing from a war and couldn't bring any women with them so they were forced to marry Vietnamese women.

The Tang Emperors made it a point to emphasize that their paternal lineage was Chinese. Family trees and geneaologies in China and Vietnam are only traced through the paternal line. No amount of PC crap will change this fact.



EastSea said:


> Read again the post of your countryman, he stated:
> 
> "No, most Southern Chinese are natives, for example in Guangdong, at least 40% of their paternal lineage and 80% maternal line are netive.O1-M119 make up 30% of Zhejiang males,while less than 4% of northern Chinese."
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...want-know-about-vietnam-11.html#ixzz2cqmCg214
> 
> I think he is objectively understand this matter. The testing for DNA is base on servey to random assess to samples, it was not collected DNA from all Cantonese. When Y chromosome haplogroup of Hans is existed in 60 % of collected samples, the rest of samples 40 % were their paternal lineage from native (Nan Yue) man. With other words 40 % of Cantonese are native Nan Yue_ren or 40 Millions native Nan Yue_ren living to day in Guang Dong province of China.
> 
> Your are stupid, that why another your countryman said to yo "f***k of from his comment". Do you remember ?



How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google knygos



> According to Y chromosome data, northern Chinese Han and southern Chinese Han have very similar paternal lineages. The Y-SNP 03-M122 is prevalent in both northern (54%) and southern Chinese Han (54%), while the prevalent lineages



How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google knygos



> *Y chromosome data show that on average southern Chinese Han have a large paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han (82%). *But mtDNA data show that southern Chinese Han have equal maternal contributions from northern Chinese Han (56%) and southern Chinese natives ( 44%) (Table 4A). *The high paternal but lower maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han indicate strong sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han over the past two millennia (Wen et al. 2004). A more recent comparison of paternal and maternal data confirmed the sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han (Xue et al. 2008).*
> 
> *When we consider the admixture proportions of Fujian Han and Guangdong Han, the ancestors of Taiwanese Han, sex-biased admixture is even more evident than in the southern Chinese Han averages. Fujian Han are estimated to have a 100 percent paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han but only a 34 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. Guangdong Han are estimated to have 68 percent paternal but only 1 5 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. The maternal contributions from southern Chinese natives to Fujian and Guangdong Han were estimated as 66 percent and 85 percent (Table 3A), respectively. The extreme sex-biased contributions in Fujian Han and Guangdong Han indicate that the male ancestors of Taiwanese Han frequently intermarried with the female ancestors of southern Chinese natives before they migrated to Taiwan.*
> 
> *This sex-bias illustrates a significant feature of the Han expansion: many male migrants from northern China married women from local non-Han populations in the south*. Therefore, the Han-grandfathers-Indigenous-grandmothers folk saying seems to apply generally to southern China over the past two millenia.




European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages



> Abstract
> Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of northsouth division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages.* A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed*.



http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html



> Abstract
> The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, *and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion. * The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> You both share the fate with your flags:
> 
> 1. Manchus sold you Hongkong NanYue_ren to Britan , you were slaves of UK.
> 2. Japan won on First Sino-Japan war and Taiwan was part of Japan Empere. You were humiliated again by Japan in WW II.
> 3. Stop tell such joke like " vast majority of the human history, we lead the world ", its wet dream.



1. 
(A) Germany lost a lot of territories from Belgium, France, Poland, Russia; Turkey lost lots of its land from Russia, Greece, etc.; Japan lost its islands from Russia; Spain lost its important port from Britian... yet China has already taken back Hong Kong and Macau, who is the winner. 
(B) That was "lost", not "sold".

2.
(A) Said the one who lost its WHOLE land from its neighbors China, France and Japan.
(B) Japan lost the war in WW2.
(C) At least Taiwan no longer belongs to Japan.

3.
I'm criticizing your unbelievable stupid nonsenses, not his.



Viet said:


> actually whoever ruled China, foreigners or not, they became Chinese as soon as the rulers including their territories became annexed and sinized. correct?



Nope, it is not a matter of "becoming Chinese".

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## ephone

We kept korea divided???

We have donated tens of thousand of lives in korea and you, the same like those n.k. bastards, say we China kept it divided???

Without China, n.k. has already been obliterated already.

Without China, if not France, U.S. would have already burnt your axx hundred of times already.

What a bunch of idiots.



Viet said:


> amazing...look yourself at a mirror, double-faced suits more to your character during the war. China´s goal was to keep Vietnam weak and divided (Korean model), while Vietnam wanted to expell the Americans and seek re-unification. Only the Soviets delivered what North Vietnam needed to win the war.
> 
> Ho Chi Minh knew that.



stalin sent most of its support to kmt, you are such an ignorant fxxk. 

stalin stole outer mongolia from China, who the hell betrayed who???

It shows China policy towards vn is very correct: pounding this sob if it dares to do anything harmful to any surrounding countries. China will keep you in a leash. Unfortunately, that is your destiny for thousand of years and it will be like that in the future. 



EastSea said:


> China is typical double face ignorant, betrayal in policy, you kiss @ of Stalin and Soviet, socialist countries to help you win on civil war in China. You betrayed all of your allies in cold war. China used NK and Vietnam like black chess to bargain with USA to open fence to mad dog run out to relax. But I reminder you that don't run out too far.



stalin sent most of its support to kmt, you are such an ignorant fxxk. 

stalin stole outer mongolia from China, who the hell betrayed who???

It shows China policy towards vn is very correct: pounding this sob if it dares to do anything harmful to any surrounding countries. China will keep you in a leash. Unfortunately, that is your destiny for thousand of years and it will be like that in the future. 



EastSea said:


> China is typical double face ignorant, betrayal in policy, you kiss @ of Stalin and Soviet, socialist countries to help you win on civil war in China. You betrayed all of your allies in cold war. China used NK and Vietnam like black chess to bargain with USA to open fence to mad dog run out to relax. But I reminder you that don't run out too far.

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## armchairPrivate

I don't care too much about ancient history. Here are the recent history of Vietnam and is still happening. The after effect of Agent Orange sprayed the US which the Vietnamese are now kissing up to.

Agent Orange: Vietnamese children suffering effects of herbicide sprayed by US Army 40 years ago | Mail Online

Generation Orange: Heartbreaking portraits of Vietnamese children suffering from devastating effects of toxic herbicide sprayed by US Army 40 years ago

They were born decades after American forces had sprayed the herbicide dioxin Agent Orange in South Vietnam, but some children living in the region today continue to suffer from the horrifying effects of the chemical.
New York City-based photographer Brian Dricscoll traveled to Vietnam to document the everyday struggles of third generation Agent Orange victims battling dozens of serious ailments, physical deformities and mental disorders.
Driscoll was inspired to take up this difficult topic by his uncle, a Vietnam War veteran who may have been one of estimated 2.6 million U.S. soldiers believed to have been exposed to Agent Orange in the 1960s.





*Deformed: Nguyen and Hung Vuong Pham, 14, and 15, await their daily bathing in the Kim Dong district of Hai Phong, Vietnam. Their days are occupied watching people pass by the front area of their home*

The American photographer traveled to Hanoi and tracked down a group of young Vietnamese whose health has been ravaged by the chemical, the site Feature Shoot reported.
For three weeks, Mr Driscoll made his way south through remote villages, ending his journey in Nha Trang about 640 miles from the capital.
During his travels, Driscoll got to meet and take pictures of teenagers and children as young as 5 suffering from debilitating conditions, among them Nguyen Pham, 11, who is deaf, blind and mute. The boy has been bed-ridden for most of his life.
Agent Orange is the combination of the code names for Herbicide Orange and Agent LNX, one of the herbicides and defoliants used by the U.S. military as part of its chemical warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971.
In the course of 10 years, American forces sprayed nearly 20million gallons of the chemical in Vietnam, Laos and parts of Cambodia in an effort to deprive guerrilla fighters of cover by destroying plants and trees where they could find refuge. 









*The forgotten: Suffering from a distorted reality, Nguyen Tran Ho, 11, gazes out from his bed (top); Thom Le Pham (bottom) gives a look of despair at home in the Benh Vien district, Danang Vietnam*





*Heart-wrenching sight: Phirum Ung, 5, third generation Agent Orange victim, naps in a hammock at home in Beng Melea Province, Cambodia. Most days are spent with his mother pan-handling at the Angkor Wat Temples*

The chemical was manufactured for the U.S. Department of Defense by Monsanto Corporation and Dow Chemical. It got its name from the color of the orange-striped 55-gallon barrels in which it was shipped to Asia.
Jeanne Stellman, of the Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health, estimated that up to 4.5 million Vietnamese were living in the 3,181 villages that were directly in the spray paths and were potentially exposed to the herbicide.
According to the Vietnam Red Cross, about 1 million Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange, including 150,000 children suffering from birth defects, CNN reported. 









*Shocking figures: The Vietnam Red Cross estimated that about 1 million Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange, including 150,000 children suffering from birth defects *

The U.S. government, however, has dismissed these figures as unreliable and inflated.
Among the illnesses contracted by people exposed to the dioxin are non-Hodgkins lymphoma, several varieties of cancer, type 2 diabetes, soft tissue sarcoma, birth defects in children, spina bifida and reproductive abnormalities, to name a few.
Earlier this month, the Association for Victims of Agent Orange in Ho Chi Minh City has filed its fourth lawsuit against American chemical companies that produced Agent Orange.


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## Genesis

Vietnam still communist or chinese communist as in only communist in name.

Also, was vietnam communism as crazy as china's ever in its history?

How open is vietnam right now?


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## Wholegrain

ephone said:


> We kept korea divided???
> 
> We have donated tens of thousand of lives in korea and you, the same like those n.k. bastards, say we China kept it divided???
> 
> Without China, n.k. has already been obliterated already.
> 
> Without China, if not France, U.S. would have already burnt your axx hundred of times already.
> 
> What a bunch of idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> stalin sent most of its support to kmt, you are such an ignorant fxxk.
> 
> stalin stole outer mongolia from China, who the hell betrayed who???
> 
> It shows China policy towards vn is very correct: pounding this sob if it dares to do anything harmful to any surrounding countries. China will keep you in a leash. Unfortunately, that is your destiny for thousand of years and it will be like that in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> stalin sent most of its support to kmt, you are such an ignorant fxxk.
> 
> stalin stole outer mongolia from China, who the hell betrayed who???
> 
> It shows China policy towards vn is very correct: pounding this sob if it dares to do anything harmful to any surrounding countries. China will keep you in a leash. Unfortunately, that is your destiny for thousand of years and it will be like that in the future.



Stalin supported the Second East Turkestan Republic and the Communist *Secular* Uyghur Separatist Ehmetjan Qasim against the KMT in the Ili rebellion.

In fact, the Soviets supported secular Uyghur intellectuals to forment separatism against China since the 1920s. The Governor of Xinjiang, Yang Zengxin was supported by the conservative, religious Uyghur mullahs and clerics who promoted traditional Islamic education against separatist Uyghur jadidists and pro Soviet Uyghurs, who wanted to replace religious education with secular subjects.

And you were screaming about how evil religious schools were.


----------



## EastSea

armchairPrivate said:


> I don't care too much about ancient history. Here are the recent history of Vietnam and is still happening. The after effect of Agent Orange sprayed the US which the Vietnamese are now kissing up to.
> 
> Agent Orange: Vietnamese children suffering effects of herbicide sprayed by US Army 40 years ago | Mail Online
> 
> Generation Orange: Heartbreaking portraits of Vietnamese children suffering from devastating effects of toxic herbicide sprayed by US Army 40 years ago
> 
> They were born decades after American forces had sprayed the herbicide dioxin Agent Orange in South Vietnam, but some children living in the region today continue to suffer from the horrifying effects of the chemical.
> New York City-based photographer Brian Dricscoll traveled to Vietnam to document the everyday struggles of third generation Agent Orange victims battling dozens of serious ailments, physical deformities and mental disorders.
> Driscoll was inspired to take up this difficult topic by his uncle, a Vietnam War veteran who may have been one of estimated 2.6 million U.S. soldiers believed to have been exposed to Agent Orange in the 1960s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Deformed: Nguyen and Hung Vuong Pham, 14, and 15, await their daily bathing in the Kim Dong district of Hai Phong, Vietnam. Their days are occupied watching people pass by the front area of their home*
> 
> The American photographer traveled to Hanoi and tracked down a group of young Vietnamese whose health has been ravaged by the chemical, the site Feature Shoot reported.
> For three weeks, Mr Driscoll made his way south through remote villages, ending his journey in Nha Trang about 640 miles from the capital.
> During his travels, Driscoll got to meet and take pictures of teenagers and children as young as 5 suffering from debilitating conditions, among them Nguyen Pham, 11, who is deaf, blind and mute. The boy has been bed-ridden for most of his life.
> Agent Orange is the combination of the code names for Herbicide Orange and Agent LNX, one of the herbicides and defoliants used by the U.S. military as part of its chemical warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971.
> In the course of 10 years, American forces sprayed nearly 20million gallons of the chemical in Vietnam, Laos and parts of Cambodia in an effort to deprive guerrilla fighters of cover by destroying plants and trees where they could find refuge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The forgotten: Suffering from a distorted reality, Nguyen Tran Ho, 11, gazes out from his bed (top); Thom Le Pham (bottom) gives a look of despair at home in the Benh Vien district, Danang Vietnam*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Heart-wrenching sight: Phirum Ung, 5, third generation Agent Orange victim, naps in a hammock at home in Beng Melea Province, Cambodia. Most days are spent with his mother pan-handling at the Angkor Wat Temples*
> 
> The chemical was manufactured for the U.S. Department of Defense by Monsanto Corporation and Dow Chemical. It got its name from the color of the orange-striped 55-gallon barrels in which it was shipped to Asia.
> Jeanne Stellman, of the Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health, estimated that up to 4.5 million Vietnamese were living in the 3,181 villages that were directly in the spray paths and were potentially exposed to the herbicide.
> According to the Vietnam Red Cross, about 1 million Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange, including 150,000 children suffering from birth defects, CNN reported.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Shocking figures: The Vietnam Red Cross estimated that about 1 million Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange, including 150,000 children suffering from birth defects *
> 
> The U.S. government, however, has dismissed these figures as unreliable and inflated.
> Among the illnesses contracted by people exposed to the dioxin are non-Hodgkin&#8217;s lymphoma, several varieties of cancer, type 2 diabetes, soft tissue sarcoma, birth defects in children, spina bifida and reproductive abnormalities, to name a few.
> Earlier this month, the Association for Victims of Agent Orange in Ho Chi Minh City has filed its fourth lawsuit against American chemical companies that produced Agent Orange.



Agent Orange was used material mixed with jet fuel in Vietnam, eastern Laos and parts of Cambodia, also was only used between 1965 and 1970. 

And other herbicides were used by the US military from the late 1940s through the 1970s in US. 


On January 31, 2004, a victim's rights group, the Vietnam Association for Victims of Agent Orange/dioxin (VAVA), filed a lawsuit in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York in Brooklyn, against several U.S. companies for liability in causing personal injury in Vietnam war. 

The case was appealed and heard by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals on June 18, 2007. The Court of Appeals upheld the dismissal of the case, stating the herbicides used during the war were not intended to be used to poison humans and therefore did not violate international law. The US Supreme Court declined to consider the case.

U.S.&#8211;Vietnamese government is followed negotiations on Help for those whos are affected in Vietnam and to assist to cleaning all area where were effected.

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## armchairPrivate

^^^

That's too bad that the US didn't accept the responsibility in causing so much suffering to the Vietnamese people, as stated by you and in the article.
It just amazes that that Vietnamese could cozy up to the US so quickly (50 years is not a long time) after all they had done, and basically told you to get lost.
Forgiveness is one thing. Embracing someone who did these to you is another. I couldn't wrap my head around it.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

armchairPrivate said:


> ^^^
> 
> That's too bad that the US didn't accept the responsibility in causing so much suffering to the Vietnamese people, as stated by you and in the article.
> *It just amazes that that Vietnamese could cozy up to the US so quickly (50 years is not a long time) after all they had done, and basically told you to get lost.
> Forgiveness is one thing. Embracing someone who did these to you is another. I couldn't wrap my head around it*.



Well you can't really Vietnam to cozy U.S if you look at how Japanese suck up with U.S even they got nuked, I guess it's part of human nature.

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## armchairPrivate

^^^

Is it? Really? What part of human nature is that? Would you do that?

I am surprised that it came from you, from the Chinese who were up in arm about the Japanese when they refused to apologize property of what they had done to you 65 years ago.
But it is human nature for the Vietnamese to not only forgive and forget, but to embrace the US who poisoned their countrymen and refused to compensate and apologize.

The double standard is glaring.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

armchairPrivate said:


> ^^^
> 
> Is it? Really? What part of human nature is that? Would you do that?



Looking for short term interest is part of hunan nature, Vietnam need U.S as counter-weight to China, so it is willing to swallow historical humiliation and desasters, same go for Japan: Sometime you just hate to do something you don't like but you just don't have better choice or alternative...I guess I won't do better than other human in this planet.


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## armchairPrivate

^^^

Fair enough. I did add some more to what I posted earlier. I guess you didn't catch it. Sorry about that.


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## EastSea

KirovAirship said:


> 1.
> (A) Germany lost a lot of territories from Belgium, France, Poland, Russia; Turkey lost lots of its land from Russia, Greece, etc.; Japan lost its islands from Russia; Spain lost its important port from Britian... yet China has already taken back Hong Kong and Macau, who is the winner.
> (B) That was "lost", not "sold".
> 
> 2.
> (A) Said the one who lost its WHOLE land from its neighbors China, France and Japan.
> (B) Japan lost the war in WW2.
> (C) At least Taiwan no longer belongs to Japan.
> 
> 3.
> I'm criticizing your unbelievable stupid nonsenses, not his.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, it is not a matter of "becoming Chinese".



the Treaty of Nanking&#8212;the what the Chinese later called the unequal treaties&#8212;granted an indemnity to Britain, to "indemnity" I said that your were "Sold" by way to paid compensation by China to Britain. 

China was loser. I's truth.


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> the Treaty of Nankingthe what the Chinese later called the unequal treatiesgranted an indemnity to Britain, to "indemnity" I said that your were "Sold" by way to paid compensation by China to Britain.
> 
> China was loser. I's truth.



Vietnam was the ultimate looser then since France colonized the entire country, and apparenlty Vietnam is still a looser today since we control Taiping island and Vietnam claims it as its own territory.

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## EastSea

ephone said:


> We kept korea divided???
> 
> We have donated tens of thousand of lives in korea and you, the same like those n.k. bastards, say we China kept it divided???
> 
> Without China, n.k. has already been obliterated already.
> 
> Without China, if not France, U.S. would have already burnt your axx hundred of times already.
> 
> What a bunch of idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> stalin sent most of its support to kmt, you are such an ignorant fxxk.
> 
> stalin stole outer mongolia from China, who the hell betrayed who???
> 
> It shows China policy towards vn is very correct: pounding this sob if it dares to do anything harmful to any surrounding countries. China will keep you in a leash. Unfortunately, that is your destiny for thousand of years and it will be like that in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> stalin sent most of its support to kmt, you are such an ignorant fxxk.
> 
> stalin stole outer mongolia from China, who the hell betrayed who???
> 
> It shows China policy towards vn is very correct: pounding this sob if it dares to do anything harmful to any surrounding countries. China will keep you in a leash. Unfortunately, that is your destiny for thousand of years and it will be like that in the future.



CPC was in Alliance with the Kuomintang: 1935&#8211;1940. When Japan invaded China, Soviet Union could supported to both side. But CPC and Mao has taken his relax in Dian An, applied his trick "sitting on mountain, watching tigers in fighting". 

After the end of World War II, the Soviet Union gave quasi-covert support to Mao by their occupation of north east China, which allowed the PLA to move in en masse and took large supplies of arms left by the Japanese's Kwantung Army.

To counter chinese dirty policy against Vietnam, we will do every thing if it to be necessary to defend our country sovereignty, dependence and freedom.



Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam was the ultimate looser then since France colonized the entire country, and apparenlty Vietnam is still a looser today since we control Taiping island and Vietnam claims it as its own territory.



Taiwan stolen our Island Itu Aba 1956. We will take it back, kid.


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## yue10

Viet said:


> thank you for the post (except the part of with massage parlours... LOL). Actually we don´t have bad feelings towards our previous enemies... old days, luckily long gone, opponents yesterday, friends today.
> 
> Despite Vietnam still face many challenges, I am pretty sure, we can manage that. As for Bitexco Financial Tower, it is really beautiful, especially at night.





Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Looking for short term interest is part of hunan nature, Vietnam need U.S as counter-weight to China, so it is willing to swallow historical humiliation and desasters, same go for Japan: Sometime you just hate to do something you don't like but you just don't have better choice or alternative...I guess I won't do better than other human in this planet.



the Vietnamese people surely do like to spit in the faces of their ancestors by ignoring modern history and going this far, they have been shafted this way that way by the US yet here they are soliciting big daddy, time and again they stupidly blame the economic and social problems of the country on communism yet say nothing about the lack of reparations or economic sanctions that crippled the rebuilding of the nation, it's like a dog who can't help but welcome it's master no matter how badly they are treated 



EastSea said:


> CPC was in Alliance with the Kuomintang: 1935&#8211;1940. When Japan invaded China, Soviet Union could supported to both side. But CPC and Mao has taken his relax in Dian An, applied his trick "sitting on mountain, watching tigers in fighting".
> 
> After the end of World War II, the Soviet Union gave quasi-covert support to Mao by their occupation of north east China, which allowed the PLA to move in en masse and took large supplies of arms left by the Japanese's Kwantung Army.
> 
> To counter chinese dirty policy against Vietnam, we will do every thing if it to be necessary to defend our country sovereignty, dependence and freedom.
> 
> Taiwan stolen our Island Itu Aba 1956. We will take it back, kid.



CCP were in alliance with KMT on the bidding of the Soviets but it's opinions like these that make outsiders such as myself really resent the backstabbing nature of the current Vietnamese populace, when in need they cosy up to the Chinese like no tomorrow, it is known that in the 50s and early 60s after the CCP took power that there was a close relationship between the Chinese and Vietnamese leadership, whether this was a relationship based only on mutual interests or more than that then I don't know but on a personal level Zhou Enlai and Mr Ho Chi Minh were quite close, had there been no Chinese intervention then who knows how history would have panned out for these hooligans in the first Indochina war, makes me think they should actually be paying tribute of some sort as token of appreciation but no, in true Vietnamese fashion they now have the audacity to stir the pot ignoring the admissions in 1958, there is no sense of honour at all with these people

as for ancient Vietnamese history I don't really think it would be wise for these guys to be claiming Baiyue, Au Lac or the Trung sisters as your history since An Duong Vuong was an ethnic Tay and the Trung sisters are not conclusively proven as having Vietnamese origin so who really knows where the Vietnamese history actually begins since the Ly emperor was a Chinese

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## xunzi

Is Vietnam our friend or enemy? I cannot get a good understanding of this country?


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## yue10

being friendly but not friends would be nice then Vietnam doesn't have to play friends and enemies with anyone, just stay neutral with everyone, go back to the policies of the honourable Nguyen


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## BoXilai

xunzi said:


> Is Vietnam our friend or enemy? I cannot get a good understanding of this country?



It depends on your actions and attitude with them. 

P/s: &#26481;&#20140;(The Eastern Capital) not only was the name of Tokyo, it also was:

- The name of Hanoi under Le Dynasty(&#40654;&#26397. Westerners called it Tonkin.

- The name of Kaifeng(&#24320;&#23553 under Northern Song Dynasty(&#21271;&#23435.

- ...

In Vietnamese literature, Hanoi was also called Tràng An(&#38271;&#23433.

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> the Vietnamese people surely do like to spit in the faces of their ancestors by ignoring modern history and going this far, they have been shafted this way that way by the US yet here they are soliciting big daddy, time and again they stupidly blame the economic and social problems of the country on communism yet say nothing about the lack of reparations or economic sanctions that crippled the rebuilding of the nation, it's like a dog who can't help but welcome it's master no matter how badly they are treated
> 
> 
> 
> CCP were in alliance with KMT on the bidding of the Soviets but it's opinions like these that make outsiders such as myself really resent the backstabbing nature of the current Vietnamese populace, when in need they cosy up to the Chinese like no tomorrow, it is known that in the 50s and early 60s after the CCP took power that there was a close relationship between the Chinese and Vietnamese leadership, whether this was a relationship based only on mutual interests or more than that then I don't know but on a personal level Zhou Enlai and Mr Ho Chi Minh were quite close, had there been no Chinese intervention then who knows how history would have panned out for these hooligans in the first Indochina war, makes me think they should actually be paying tribute of some sort as token of appreciation but no, in true Vietnamese fashion they now have the audacity to stir the pot ignoring the admissions in 1958, there is no sense of honour at all with these people
> 
> as for ancient Vietnamese history I don't really think it would be wise for these guys to be claiming Baiyue, Au Lac or the Trung sisters as your history since An Duong Vuong was an ethnic Tay and the Trung sisters are not conclusively proven as having Vietnamese origin so who really knows where the Vietnamese history actually begins since the Ly emperor was a Chinese



I think you are chinese, not korean.


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## yue10

^
would you believe me if I said I was overseas born Vietnamese?


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> ^
> would you believe me if I said I was overseas born Vietnamese?



No, your comments should disclosed who are you.


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## yue10

all I know is my surname is Nguyen and I'm not Hoa so it's up to you


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> all I know is my surname is Nguyen and I'm not Hoa so it's up to you



then you could more fluently in English than what you trolled above.


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## Viet

xunzi said:


> Is Vietnam our friend or enemy? I cannot get a good understanding of this country?


I wish Vietnam would be an island like Japan, protected by a vast ocean.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> the Treaty of Nanking&#8212;the what the Chinese later called the unequal treaties&#8212;granted an indemnity to Britain, to "indemnity" I said that your were "Sold" by way to paid compensation by China to Britain.
> 
> China was loser. I's truth.



You sign an unequal treaties if you lose a war, just like what Germany, Turkey and the rest of the world do. This is a freaking common "rule". It is not a business of freaking "selling" nor buying. 

Everybody knows that China was poor and undeveloped, and Vietnam was/is worse. no one can deny that.

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## Viet

Apothecary said:


> I got a question.
> What's *the oldest surviving literary work* in vietnam and what does it say?


I don´t know, my bad. But if any then that were written in Viet ancient characters in times of Hùng V&#432;&#417;ng period (2879 bc-258 bc) before Vietnam adopted Chinese. 

Hùng V






_The modern Vietnamese scripts (left) and the ancient Vietnamese scripts_







Ancient Vietnamese writing decoded - News VietNamNet

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## Viet

ChinaToday said:


> how many time china colonised Vietnam and how long each time


Vietnam was not a colony but a province of China called Annam (&#23433;&#21335;; pinyin: &#256;nnán) or Giao Ch&#7881; (&#20132;&#36286;; pinyin: Ji&#257;ozh&#464.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annam_(Chinese_province)






_China under the Tang Dynasty, c. 660 AD (bright yellow)._



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_domination_of_Vietnam


The Chinese domination of Vietnam (Vietnamese: b&#7855;c thu&#7897;c, "belonging to the North"[1][2][3]) began in 111 BC, and is usually considered to have ended in 938 AD. A fourth, relatively brief, 20-year punitive invasion by the Ming dynasty, 400 years later, is usually excluded by historians in discussion of the main, almost continuous, period of Chinese colonization from 111 BC to 938 AD.

First Chinese domination of Vietnam (111 BC&#8211;39 AD) Chinese incursions, followed by Chinese victory in the Han-Nanyue War (111 BC), established Chinese rule in Vietnam. This was briefly interrupted by the revolt of the Tr&#432;ng Sisters (40&#8211;43 AD).

Second Chinese domination of Vietnam (43&#8211;544) ended by the revolt of Lý Nam &#272;&#7871; who lead a rebellion taking advantage of internal disorder in China and the weakness of the waning Southern Liang dynasty. This secured 60 years of independence for Vietnam, but following regime change and consolidation of power in China, the new Sui dynasty sent an overwhelmingly large army south to reestablish control over northern Vietnam in 602.

Third Chinese domination of Vietnam (602&#8211;938) starting with the peaceful abdication by Lý's successor in the face of overwhelming Chinese numbers, and marked by entrenchment of mandarin administration. The period concluded with the internal collapse of China's Tang dynasty and Ngô Quy&#7873;n's destruction of the Southern Han armada at the naval Battle of Bach Dang River (938).

Fourth Chinese domination of Vietnam (1407&#8211;1427) a 20-year occupation by the Ming dynasty army, from Vietnamese defeat in the Ming&#8211;H&#7891; War (1406&#8211;1407) to Vietnamese rebellion and Lê L&#7907;i's defeat of the Chinese at the Battle of T&#7889;t &#272;&#7897;ng &#8211; Chúc &#272;&#7897;ng (1427).


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## xunzi

Viet said:


> I wish Vietnam would be an island like Japan, protected by a vast ocean.


That true for ancient strategy. It's a strategic advantage of the past. In modern warfare, with modern technology such as missile and nuclear weapon, the existence of an island is in fact a negativity because an island state is forced to defend all corners of the sea. The US was able to overcome this by attacking on different front, North and South. Additionally in a nuclear fallout, people cannot be evacuated to neighboring's border.

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## EastSea

ChinaToday said:


> how many time china colonised Vietnam and how long each time



USA went out from Vietnam 1975, Britain give back Hongkong 1997, Macau 1999, too late . Taiwan is under protectoriate of USA now. China is half-independence state.

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## yue10

EastSea said:


> then you could more fluently in English than what you trolled above.


ok, let's say I am an overseas born Asian, what's so bad about my English except for not using full stops and capitalisation? also where did I troll? I will admit that maybe I used aggressive language but did I make anything up for you to say I am trolling?



> Quote Originally Posted by Apothecary
> I got a question.
> What's the oldest surviving literary work in vietnam and what does it say?



not sure but might be &#272;&#7841;i Vi&#7879;t s&#7917; l&#432;&#7907;c which marks the beginning of Vietnamese history with Zhao Tuo's rule not the Hung Kings, that came later, also notice how it says the Ming looted all of Vietnamese historical records yet conveniently this 3 volume account still survives having been held by the Ming and Qing and then later returned, why didn't they just destroy it along with everything else? doesn't sound right to me, though it is Wikipedia so I don't know if it's trustworthy or not (I can't post links)




Viet said:


> I don´t know, my bad. But if any then that were written in Viet ancient characters in times of Hùng V&#432;&#417;ng period (2879 bc-258 bc) before Vietnam adopted Chinese.



the Hung Kings aren't real unless you believe in fairy tales and these scripts are not from the Vietnamese


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> USA went out from Vietnam 1975, Britain give back Hongkong 1997, Macau 1999, too late . Taiwan is under protectorate of USA now. China is half-independence state.



Hong Kong and Macau are two tiny CITIES of China, yet your WHOLE land were ruled by your neighbors for more than 1000 years. Tell me how thick your face could be. 

'Protectorate' you say, how about "poor" S.Korea and Japan. Daheck is 'half-independence' state, didn't you people claim that your big bad bully "stole" your islands~ are you the 'half-independence' state~? The 4 lands Macau, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Mainland you have mentioned are all more developed than your country. You mad~?

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## Viet

yue10 said:


> ok, let's say I am an overseas born Asian, what's so bad about my English except for not using full stops and capitalisation? also where did I troll? I will admit that maybe I used aggressive language but did I make anything up for you to say I am trolling?


I guess you are Asian, born in America, live in Africa but work in Australia. At the end of the day, after realizing you are just a 5 cent troller loving uncle Kim from North Korea, that is the reason why your both flags show North Korea.


yue10 said:


> the Hung Kings aren't real unless you believe in fairy tales and these scripts are not from the Vietnamese


The world-body organisation UNESCO believes in fairy tales, too.
http://news.gov.vn/Home/Hung-Kings-...CO-certificate-festival-opens/20134/17586.vgp





_Worship of Hùng kings in Phú Th&#7885;
© Vietnam Institute of Culture and Arts Studies 2011_


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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> I wish Vietnam would be an island like Japan, protected by a vast ocean.



You won't like it. Besides Japan and UK, Philippines is another example.

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> ok, let's say I am an overseas born Asian, what's so bad about my English except for not using full stops and capitalisation? also where did I troll? I will admit that maybe I used aggressive language but did I make anything up for you to say I am trolling?
> 
> 
> 
> not sure but might be &#272;&#7841;i Vi&#7879;t s&#7917; l&#432;&#7907;c which marks the beginning of Vietnamese history with Zhao Tuo's rule not the Hung Kings, that came later, also notice how it says the Ming looted all of Vietnamese historical records yet conveniently this 3 volume account still survives having been held by the Ming and Qing and then later returned, why didn't they just destroy it along with everything else? doesn't sound right to me, though it is Wikipedia so I don't know if it's trustworthy or not (I can't post links)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the Hung Kings aren't real unless you believe in fairy tales and these scripts are not from the Vietnamese



You are Cantonese with your nick "yue" , you are not Vietnamese. When you show in your ID North Korean flags, you show of your smuggler mentality, try to cheat other members here.

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## walle990

On topic, what contribution has Vietnam made to the world? Both in modern and ancient history, apart from being the place where political ideologies were fought?

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## Viet

Genesis said:


> Vietnam still communist or chinese communist as in only communist in name.


yes, a combination of both worlds, communism and capitalism


Genesis said:


> Also, was vietnam communism as crazy as china's ever in its history?


not as crazy as China with cultural revolution, but similar in economic failures at the beginning


Genesis said:


> How open is vietnam right now?


a bit more than China. For instance Vietnam adopts vote of confidence. The National Assembly has the power to remove any incompent and corrupt leaders from their posts, including State President, Prime Minister and members of central as well as local government.

Vietnam latest news - Thanh Nien Daily | Vietnam leaders pass first, historic confidence vote

Vietnam PM takes a hit in first-ever confidence vote | Reuters


Vietnam even considers allowing Same-sex marriage.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/society/80315/same-sex-marriage-in-vn-still-long-way-off.html

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## yue10

Viet said:


> I guess you are Asian, born in America, live in Africa but work in Australia. At the end of the day, after realizing you are just a 5 cent troller loving uncle Kim from North Korea, that is the reason why your both flags show North Korea.
> The world-body organisation UNESCO believes in fairy tales, too.



maybe UNESCO also believes that the beauty of Ha Long Bay is the result of dragons 'spitting out jade and jewels' unfortunately for Vietnam this scholar does not believe in fairy tales



> However, I argue that the discussion of the &#8220;Biography of the H&#7891;ng Bàng Clan&#8221; in this essay demonstrates that the Hùng kings did not exist. *Instead, they were invented in the medieval era *as part of a process in which the Sinicized elite in the Red River Delta first created and then articulated a distinct identity in terms of China&#8217;s cultural heritage.


www_academia.edu/3554295/The_Biography_of_the_H_ng_Bang_Clan_as_a_Medieval_Vietnamese_Invented_Tradition



EastSea said:


> You are Cantonese with your nick "yue" , you are not Vietnamese. When you show in your ID North Korean flags, you show of your smuggler mentality, try to cheat other members here.



I'm not trying to cheat anyone, I don't want to pick any sides so I put the DPRK flag up, like I said my surname is Nguyen and I'm not Hoa 



EastSea said:


> You are liar.
> 
> Nguyen Dynasty is founded by Gialong Emperor, he is South Vietnamese Kinh. General secretary of VCP Le Duan, he is South Vietnamese Kinh. They both have been re-united Vietnam after civil wars. They could be considered as delegates of superior Kinh ethnic.
> 
> Nguyen Dynasty was loser when fought against France colonials because our country was small, weak; with limited population and backwards in technology of weapons. So that both Cochinchina (south Vietnam) and Tonkin (North Vietnam) were occupied by France with force. We regained our independence 1945, beating all our enemies from our soil: 1954 France, 1975 USA and 1979 China.
> 
> media in Vietnam talks trash about Southern Vietnamese girls from the Mekong Delta and blames them for marrying foreigners. They are mostly Minh Huong girls and their relatives. They are victims of Chinese human traffickers came from Taiwan and mainland China.
> 
> That why the Numbers of Hua people in Vietnam is reduced to around 850,000 people now.
> 
> In contrast, Man Qing sold you to Britain to compensation of war.



just be honest and say that it was your own people who sold out their country, you should actually blame greedy Gia Long for allowing the French exclusive rights in Vietnam in the first place then next would be the traitorous Catholics who saw religion as more important than their own country, how many countries have you people pleaded with for help only to turn around and stiff them later on, do people in Vietnam understand the meaning of honour or gratitude? by 'we' I assume you mean China + Soviets and also the voluntary US withdrawal because I don't know who the Vietnamese beat with their massive domestic arms supply

the Hoa were kicked out simply because you guys felt threatened by their presence, when you can't compete with those who are more naturally gifted in commerce the only thing you can do is drive them off under the pretences of communism and then extort them on their out, there is no shame with these guys really 


> However, the Vietnamese government by now not only encouraged the exodus,* but took the opportunity to profit from it by extorting a price of five to ten taels of gold or an equivalent of US $1,500 to $3,000 per person wishing to leave the country.*[126][127][128][129][130] The Vietnamese military also forcibly drove the thousands of border refugees across the China-Vietnam land border, causing numerous border incidents and armed clashes, while blaming these movements on China by accusing them of using saboteurs to force Vietnamese citizens into China.[


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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> After Vietnam received a massive beating from France and Spain, it gave up and sold Cochinchina (mekong delta and Saigon) to the French.
> 
> In China and Taiwan our media doesn't seek to falsely blame the people of a particular region to cover up national shame or *humiliation *unlike Vietnam.


Actually Vietnam´s greatest weakness is the close relationship to China. The humiliation Vietnam suffered in the last 150 years won´t happen if Vietnam chose the Japan model instead: opening and modernisation of the country.

Yes, Vietnam did the historic mistake, despite independence from the northern neighbor, followed the Chinese model. That was dumb. That model is surely superior to her Southeastern Asian neighbors, but let Vietnam weak and helpless when Western Powers arrived in the 18 century.

It is time for Vietnam to scale down the relationship to China and increase with Japan.


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## djsjs

^^the best way is Vietnam being our Special Administrative Region,like HK.then no territory dispute,no fishmen caught.Vietnam can focus on economy development and get support from central government,you may keep your army if needed.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> Actually Vietnam´s greatest weakness is the close relationship to China. The humiliation Vietnam suffered in the last 150 years won´t happen if Vietnam chose the Japan model instead: opening and modernisation of the country.
> 
> Yes, Vietnam did the historic mistake, despite independence from the northern neighbor, followed the Chinese model. That was dumb. That model is surely superior to her Southeastern Asian neighbors, but let Vietnam weak and helpless when Western Powers arrived in the 18 century.
> 
> It is time for Vietnam to scale down the relationship to China and increase with Japan.



Japanese model doesn't work on every countries. Ottoman Turkey and Mughal India did the same thing - "opening and modernisation", look what happened to them.

Actually I think Thailand was a better model for Vietnam to learn.

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> I'm not trying to cheat anyone, I don't want to pick any sides so I put the DPRK flag up, like I said my surname is Nguyen and I'm not Hoa
> 
> 
> 
> just be honest and say that it was your own people who sold out their country, you should actually blame greedy Gia Long for allowing the French exclusive rights in Vietnam in the first place then next would be the traitorous Catholics who saw religion as more important than their own country, how many countries have you people pleaded with for help only to turn around and stiff them later on, do people in Vietnam understand the meaning of honour or gratitude? by 'we' I assume you mean China + Soviets and also the voluntary US withdrawal because I don't know who the Vietnamese beat with their massive domestic arms supply
> 
> the Hoa were kicked out simply because you guys felt threatened by their presence, when you can't compete with those who are more naturally gifted in commerce the only thing you can do is drive them off under the pretences of communism and then extort them on their out, there is no shame with these guys really



Emperor Gia Long was the first Emperor of the Nguy&#7877;n Dynasty of Vietnam. There is now modern Vietnam in the world map. It is big deal.

Gia Long's rule was noted for its Confucian orthodoxy first, and he tolerated the activities of Roman Catholic missionaries. It' was smart policy in his time. if he could open our country for business with Wests, like Minji Emperor did in Japan's ...Vietnam could have another way to development. 

Vietnam's Govt today is following discussion with Vatican to prevent any misunderstanding, or outbreak of violence base on religious conflicts or any reasons could happen.

The Hoa people came to Vietnam from many reasons, we let them chance to live here like our brothers. They were highly over represented in business and commerce sector before 1975. 

Why Hua people ran out from Vietnam 1977, 1978 ? when China backed Khmer Rouge to attack Vietnam in Viet-Cambot border. China believed that, without Hua chinese, Vietnam will collapse. China played Hua people carte, as known "nan Jiao" to against Vietnam.

You came to Vietnam it was your willing, you go out is base on your willing. We let you go.

When you "chung chi" to take place on boat with benzil, foods... and other fee to human traffickers help you go out, you blamed that govt of Vietnam collect its. 

When you went to border in north 1978, but China don't let you turn back your homeland. It's problem of Chinese. But we don't let you make noisy and violation there.

Chinese are traitors.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> *Japanese model* doesn't work on every countries. Ottoman Turkey and Mughal India did the same thing - "opening and modernisation", look what happened to them.


Everything can happen, even failure. But why shouldn´t Vietnam stay on Chinese model forever as Japanese system is proved as superior. Just look at the success and strength of Japan´s economy and military (excluded their war crimes).

Surely, it would be for Vietnam as the next major step, comparable to dropping Chinese writing characters and adopting latin 100 years ago, to alienate further from China. But I dopt Chinese would shed tears.


KirovAirship said:


> Actually I think *Thailand *was a better model for Vietnam to learn.


The Thai´s? do you want to insult us? If any, Vietnam looks at Eastern Asian countries for model.


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## EastSea

djsjs said:


> ^^the best way is Vietnam being our Special Administrative Region,like HK.then no territory dispute,no fishmen caught.Vietnam can focus on economy development and get support from central government,you may keep your army if needed.



Wet dream.

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## newlander

lair and coward.
You let Hoa return, return after you steal all their property and murder them if they do not ?
Who gave away all their property, their house, their money, even their life which their earn themself because they want to return ? simply as that, lair !

Only a stupid fool trust a viet, the lair voice.
Kill all Chinese living in Thai, claim all the sea, dare kill Chinese citizen to set foot on it ? kill them , do your words !

Hoa people help to create your southern land, and then give it to your king , do a viet know its own history ? "Mac Cuu" , yet they treat like trash, their life mean nothing, even now.
Go to any viet forum and you understand that, all viet want is to kill them of, drive them away from their house and steal that.
The genocie mind set run deep in viet blood, you kill of Cham people, all Khmer people in your land, not only Hoa, HMong killed too.

How many Hoa killed because you want to purify your race ?
Do you want me to quote viet voice in viet forums that ask other to kill/deport Hoa ? even they do nothing to you, even now ?
And you said they went back willingly ? yes, Germany Jew die too, willingly.

Do you so stupid that you do not know your own history, do you read the book "Nguoi Thang Cuoc" ?
Wonderfull book, even Japan translating it now, it mark viet as the most correct form: murderer.

viet are Murderer and street robbery.
Lair
Coward because you do not have a gut to talk what you did: ethic cleansing.

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## ephone

Am I talking about east turkestan???

Why cannot you get the fxxk off my comments???

What a retard.



Wholegrain said:


> Stalin supported the Second East Turkestan Republic and the Communist *Secular* Uyghur Separatist Ehmetjan Qasim against the KMT in the Ili rebellion.
> 
> In fact, the Soviets supported secular Uyghur intellectuals to forment separatism against China since the 1920s. The Governor of Xinjiang, Yang Zengxin was supported by the conservative, religious Uyghur mullahs and clerics who promoted traditional Islamic education against separatist Uyghur jadidists and pro Soviet Uyghurs, who wanted to replace religious education with secular subjects.
> 
> And you were screaming about how evil religious schools were.


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## ephone

idiots like you know nothing about history.

Since KMT was the official government, most of international support, including the ones from ussr went to KMT. After WWII, CPC indeed got a lot of weapons from the japs after its surrender, as well as a lot left by soviet in Northeast. However, that is after WWII, not during WWII. 

KMT was the main force to defend against the japs well CPC was not. However, KMT was so corrupted, except a few, most battles were disastrous. 

As for China's policy, well, we have tried our best to support both nk and vn then.

For nk, we have driven the u.s.-led u.n. forces back to the 38th line. However, by China national ability then with her GDP, production level, China could not push U.S. out of korea. U.S. production powers were hundreds of times over What China was then. A stalemate was the best China could achieve then.

As for vn, we have already tried our best to protect the north vn by threatening mass intervention if U.S. invaded north vn. So throughout the vn war, U.S. did not dare to do so. In addition, between the borders of the two, China sent all types of support to vn without interruption. China even trained most cadets in vn army. However, after U.S. withdrawal, what vn asked China was already beyond China's ability: China was near the end of 10-year culture revolution and her economy was in such a bad shape and there was no way for China to get involved into another war. So your indication that China intentionally wanted to divide korea, and vn was way off. 

Anyway, there is not much to tell you. China will keep you at a leash. Just like what happened in the past thousands of years, China will teach you a hard lesson when you do not behave. 



EastSea said:


> CPC was in Alliance with the Kuomintang: 19351940. When Japan invaded China, Soviet Union could supported to both side. But CPC and Mao has taken his relax in Dian An, applied his trick "sitting on mountain, watching tigers in fighting".
> 
> After the end of World War II, the Soviet Union gave quasi-covert support to Mao by their occupation of north east China, which allowed the PLA to move in en masse and took large supplies of arms left by the Japanese's Kwantung Army.
> 
> To counter chinese dirty policy against Vietnam, we will do every thing if it to be necessary to defend our country sovereignty, dependence and freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> Taiwan stolen our Island Itu Aba 1956. We will take it back, kid.


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## Genesis

Viet said:


> Actually Vietnam´s greatest weakness is the close relationship to China. The humiliation Vietnam suffered in the last 150 years won´t happen if Vietnam chose the Japan model instead: opening and modernisation of the country.
> 
> Yes, Vietnam did the historic mistake, despite independence from the northern neighbor, followed the Chinese model. That was dumb. That model is surely superior to her Southeastern Asian neighbors, but let Vietnam weak and helpless when Western Powers arrived in the 18 century.
> 
> It is time for Vietnam to scale down the relationship to China and increase with Japan.



Yu do know japan was even more closed off under the shogun right? It was perry that forced japan to trade with cannons.

Japan wasn't colonized for a variety of reasons, and being able to defend itself was not one of them.

The japanese model is close to china before meiji revolution, and even after. China was the first east asian nation to modernize, people forget, but before the defeat at the first sino japanese war, china was considered the better westernized country with a stronger military. All went down hill after that but here we are. 

It is the inability of our leaders that resulted in the humiliation. You guys defeated kublai khan at his height, and yongle emporer after 20 yearsof war. You think the french are stronger than that? Hell no, but the will and ability is gone. 

If talking now, you can only follow chinese model, cause you don't have the society that japan has or the conditions. Japan was not self made but made by the states. Also, japan was a world power before the american take over, so it's transition is much more possible due to it. Hence one side is japan, world power, the other iraq, world joke.

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## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> Actually Vietnam´s greatest weakness is the close relationship to China. The humiliation Vietnam suffered in the last 150 years won´t happen if Vietnam chose the Japan model instead: opening and modernisation of the country.
> 
> Yes, Vietnam did the historic mistake, despite independence from the northern neighbor, followed the Chinese model. That was dumb. That model is surely superior to her Southeastern Asian neighbors, but let Vietnam weak and helpless when Western Powers arrived in the 18 century.
> 
> It is time for Vietnam to scale down the relationship to China and increase with Japan.





In the Sino French War, after China defeated France in the Keelung campaign in Taiwan, and defeated the French army at Bang bo and forced them into the retreat from Lang Son. China captured Lang Son and the war ended with the French army in retreat. The Jules Ferry government in France collapsed and France was forced to enter into negotiations.

China forced France to drop both their demand for an indemnity and their claims to the Pescadores and forced them to evacuate from Taiwan. But when it came to Vietnam, Japan threatened to help France to attack and invade China, if China did not allow France to take over Vietnam as a protectorate. The Treaty of Tianjin was signed because of the Japanese. The reason is because China and Japan were have a dispute over Korea's status during the Sino French War. As usual Japan wanted to force Korea to become pro Japan. The Japanese did not give a damn about whether other asians would be victimized by the west.

Its thanks to Japan that Vietnam was a colony of France.

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## Sergi

@Viet or anybody from Vietnam : 
I need some information about Vietnam and i would be glad if you can support it with some source 

- from where the Vietcong ( hope its not offensive ) pick up gorilla warfare ??? And any particular idol for that warfare technique ??? 
- which of the state heads of VN visited India ??? Anyone of them visited any particular place in "India - Maharashtra" ???


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## EastSea

newlander said:


> lair and coward.
> You let Hoa return, return after you steal all their property and murder them if they do not ?
> Who gave away all their property, their house, their money, even their life which their earn themself because they want to return ? simply as that, lair !
> 
> Only a stupid fool trust a viet, the lair voice.
> Kill all Chinese living in Thai, claim all the sea, dare kill Chinese citizen to set foot on it ? kill them , do your words !
> 
> Hoa people help to create your southern land, and then give it to your king , do a viet know its own history ? "Mac Cuu" , yet they treat like trash, their life mean nothing, even now.
> Go to any viet forum and you understand that, all viet want is to kill them of, drive them away from their house and steal that.
> The genocie mind set run deep in viet blood, you kill of Cham people, all Khmer people in your land, not only Hoa, HMong killed too.
> 
> How many Hoa killed because you want to purify your race ?
> Do you want me to quote viet voice in viet forums that ask other to kill/deport Hoa ? even they do nothing to you, even now ?
> And you said they went back willingly ? yes, Germany Jew die too, willingly.
> 
> Do you so stupid that you do not know your own history, do you read the book "Nguoi Thang Cuoc" ?
> Wonderfull book, even Japan translating it now, it mark viet as the most correct form: murderer.
> 
> viet are Murderer and street robbery.
> Lair
> Coward because you do not have a gut to talk what you did: ethic cleansing.



you just showed your true color.

we let your ancestors to live in Vietnam when they were poor and hunger, escaped from violation and famine in China. Ás human being we take care about you like our brothers. 

But China govt used you as "&#272;&#7897;i quân th&#7913; 5" (number 5 army) to interfere and take hegemony in Vietnam. You can read mere posts of Chinese guys on forum, they stated that Chinese hua control 70% our economy. In any case we don' let it happen.

Vietnamese are murderers ? if it should be, no Hua can exist to day in Vietnam. 

Hua people like go to west or turn back home for better live, we don't care. When Minh H&#432;&#417;ng and his relatives like to get marriage with foreigners, we let they do base on law and regulation when our police don't find any evident for such cases are human trafficking business.

You are liar, if you are Minh Huong were a time in Vietnam you are traitor.

One more, who written such book "Bên th&#7855;ng cuôc" he ís also man to kiss @ of Wests to make money, like Tzen Guangsheng or Wei Wei in China, it's trash.

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## EastSea

Sergi said:


> @Viet or anybody from Vietnam :
> I need some information about Vietnam and i would be glad if you can support it with some source
> 
> - from where the Vietcong ( hope its not offensive ) pick up gorilla warfare ??? And any particular idol for that warfare technique ???
> - which of the state heads of VN visited India ??? Anyone of them visited any particular place in "India - Maharashtra" ???



We used same weapons like Saigon Regim. It got a advantage that we could have supply locally (from our men in Saigon army)


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> you just showed your true color.
> 
> we let your ancestors to live in Vietnam when they were poor and hunger, escaped from violation and famine in China. Ás human being we take care about you like our brothers.
> 
> But China govt used you as "&#272;&#7897;i quân th&#7913; 5" (number 5 army) to interfere and take hegemony in Vietnam. You can read mere posts of Chinese guys on forum, they stated that Chinese hua control 70% our economy. In any case we don' let it happen.
> 
> Vietnamese are murderers ? if it should be, no Hua can exist to day in Vietnam.
> 
> Hua people like go to west or turn back home for better live, we don't care. When Minh H&#432;&#417;ng and his relatives like to get marriage with foreigners, we let they do base on law and regulation when our police don't find any evident for such cases are human trafficking business.
> 
> You are liar, if you are Minh Huong were a time in Vietnam you are traitor.
> 
> One more, who written such book "Bên th&#7855;ng cuôc" he ís also man to kiss @ of Wests to make money, like Tzen Guangsheng or Wei Wei in China, it's trash.



The trash shows his true feelings about southern Han in this post. All Hoa and Minh Huong in Vietnam are southern Han, Cantonese from Guangdong or people from Fujian. Not a single northerner or Mandarin native speaker. And his fellows like Battle of Bach Dang River claim Cantonese are Vietnamese brothers. 

No Chinese fled to Vietnam because of famine or hunger. The ancestors of Minh Huong were refugees from the collapse of the Ming dynasty, and the Nguyen lords settled them and their Vietnamese wives on Cham and Khmer land in southern Vietnam and the Mekong Delta to keep Cham and Khmer under their control, so Champa and Cambodia could not take back southern Vietnam. The Nguyen also used Minh Huong to spy on China.

Vietnam and the Chinese Model

The Thanh Nhan are Chinese who came as merchants to Vietnam to trade during the Qing, and all the rest of the Hoa are Chinese merchants who came during French rule in Vietnam. There were no famine refugees or poor people. Those merchants controlled 70% of South Vietnam's economy before North Vietnam's invasion.



ephone said:


> I simply tell you straightly to get the fxxk off my comments. Do you understand that???
> 
> What a p.o.s.



Too bad, you can't make me "fxxk off".


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## EastSea

ephone said:


> idiots like you know nothing about history.
> 
> Since KMT was the official government, most of international support, including the ones from ussr went to KMT. After WWII, CPC indeed got a lot of weapons from the japs after its surrender, as well as a lot left by soviet in Northeast. However, that is after WWII, not during WWII.
> 
> KMT was the main force to defend against the japs well CPC was not. However, KMT was so corrupted, except a few, most battles were disastrous.
> 
> As for China's policy, well, we have tried our best to support both nk and vn then.
> 
> For nk, we have driven the u.s.-led u.n. forces back to the 38th line. However, by China national ability then with her GDP, production level, China could not push U.S. out of korea. U.S. production powers were hundreds of times over What China was then. A stalemate was the best China could achieve then.
> 
> As for vn, we have already tried our best to protect the north vn by threatening mass intervention if U.S. invaded north vn. So throughout the vn war, U.S. did not dare to do so. In addition, between the borders of the two, China sent all types of support to vn without interruption. China even trained most cadets in vn army. However, after U.S. withdrawal, what vn asked China was already beyond China's ability: China was near the end of 10-year culture revolution and her economy was in such a bad shape and there was no way for China to get involved into another war. So your indication that China intentionally wanted to divide korea, and vn was way off.
> 
> Anyway, there is not much to tell you. China will keep you at a leash. Just like what happened in the past thousands of years, China will teach you a hard lesson when you do not behave.



At the end of your post, you admitted what china did in the past and what you will do in future to against Vietnam, no need more comment. It's dirty policy.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> The trash shows his true feelings about southern Han in this post. All Hoa and Minh Huong in Vietnam are southern Han, Cantonese from Guangdong or people from Fujian. Not a single northerner or Mandarin native speaker. And his fellows like Battle of Bach Dang River claim Cantonese are Vietnamese brothers.
> 
> No Chinese fled to Vietnam because of famine or hunger. The ancestors of Minh Huong were refugees from the collapse of the Ming dynasty, and the Nguyen lords settled them and their Vietnamese wives on Cham and Khmer land in southern Vietnam and the Mekong Delta to keep Cham and Khmer under their control, so Champa and Cambodia could not take back southern Vietnam. The Nguyen also used Minh Huong to spy on China.
> 
> Vietnam and the Chinese Model
> 
> The Thanh Nhan are Chinese who came as merchants to Vietnam to trade during the Qing, and all the rest of the Hoa are Chinese merchants who came during French rule in Vietnam. There were no famine refugees or poor people. Those merchants controlled 70% of South Vietnam's economy before North Vietnam's invasion.
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad, you can't make me "fxxk off".



Cantonese or Nan Yue considered as "brother' by Mr. Battle is understood that there is "friendship" of two neighbors people shared in near by common border, it doesn't mean we shared same bloodline with you. Like what I said in my post above that in the past we have taken care about Cantonese refugees &#8220;like brothers&#8221; in the past. 

Cantonese refugees were allocated first in Bien Hoa, Dong Nai, it is near of Saigon today. Same way was handled by Nguyen Lord to other newcomers from North Vietnam &#7887;r other North Vietnamese were moved to south after many army operation attacking in to North land . 

Don't forgotten the war when Ming Dynasty army invaded in to Vietnam, there was bloody fighting in 10 years. our hero Le Loi regained our independence and founded Le Dynasty in Vietnam. Other than Cantonese refugees were organized elite troops of Ming Dynasty. Nguyen Lord could has his own reason to do that.

Cantonese came to Vietnam time to time, in small group or individual was not reported by media or not recorded by any document. it was 1,1 mill before 1975. Hua people did business to supply US army and ruled on retail market, when Vietnamese from both side were focused on fighting. then they got a big profit from Vietnam war.

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## yue10

EastSea said:


> Emperor Gia Long was the first Emperor of the Nguy&#7877;n Dynasty of Vietnam. There is now modern Vietnam in the world map. It is big deal.
> Gia Long's rule was noted for its Confucian orthodoxy first, and he tolerated the activities of Roman Catholic missionaries. It' was smart policy in his time. if he could open our country for business with Wests, like Minji Emperor did in Japan's ...Vietnam could have another way to development.
> Vietnam's Govt today is following discussion with Vatican to prevent any misunderstanding, or outbreak of violence base on religious conflicts or any reasons could happen.
> The Hoa people came to Vietnam from many reasons, we let them chance to live here like our brothers. They were highly over represented in business and commerce sector before 1975.
> Why Hua people ran out from Vietnam 1977, 1978 ? when China backed Khmer Rouge to attack Vietnam in Viet-Cambot border. China believed that, without Hua chinese, Vietnam will collapse. China played Hua people carte, as known "nan Jiao" to against Vietnam.
> You came to Vietnam it was your willing, you go out is base on your willing. We let you go.
> When you "chung chi" to take place on boat with benzil, foods... and other fee to human traffickers help you go out, you blamed that govt of Vietnam collect its.
> When you went to border in north 1978, but China don't let you turn back your homeland. It's problem of Chinese. But we don't let you make noisy and violation there.
> Chinese are traitors.


why do you keep using we? for the first wave of Ming loyalists you were too busy fighting amongst yourselves so you should be building altars and worshipping them or something because if it wasn't for them and Mac Cuu you people wouldn't have possession of the bustling region now, we all know the economic heart of Vietnam lies in the South not the sh1tty North with people who can't even speak properly, z z z everything so show a little gratitude and bow to your masters, as for the second wave they were solicited by the ruling French to act as the middle men so I don't know where 'we allowed' comes from



Viet said:


> Everything can happen, even failure. But why shouldn´t Vietnam stay on Chinese model forever as Japanese system is proved as superior. Just look at the success and strength of Japan´s economy and military (excluded their war crimes).
> Surely, it would be for Vietnam as the next major step, comparable to dropping Chinese writing characters and adopting latin 100 years ago, to alienate further from China. But I dopt Chinese would shed tears.
> The Thai´s? do you want to insult us? If any, Vietnam looks at Eastern Asian countries for model.


the 'isolationist' model was one of the best periods Japan has ever experienced culturally, socially and economically but the only problem is that it was obviously not technologically forward, as for their success it wasn't because of any strength in strategy or policy that they weren't colonised but because they were 'lucky' enough to be inhabitants of a country that was so laughably scarce of any natural resources or exploitable factor endowments that there was no point in subjugating them in the traditional way, why else would they then try to 'liberate' Eastern Asia? I really don't know why these naive Vietnamese worship the Japanese so much when they were ready to sell you guys down the river in WWII, if the Americans weren't so determined to enter the war and decided to suspend the oil embargo and allow Japan to hold it's assets in China then you guys would have been sold like how your women are sold off today

the Thai model is a good model if you want to be dictated to by internationalist financiers, look closer and you will see the policies of the IMF and World Bank is reflected in not only their general economic policies but more specifically the targeting of the tourism industry, the 97 Asian financial crisis was all because of these imperialist who appeared under the guise of heroic financiers and forcing the capital controls to be eased then everything just went to sh!t 



EastSea said:


> Cantonese considered as "brother' by Mr. Battle is understood that there is "friendship" of two neighbors people shared common border, it doesn't mean we shared same bloodline with you. Like what I said in my post above that in the past we have taken care about Cantonese refugees like brothers in the past.
> 
> Cantonese refugees were allocated first in Bien Hoa, Dong Nai, it is near of Saigon today. Same way was handled by Nguyen Lord to other newcomers from North Vietnam &#7887;r other North Vietnamese were moved to south after many army operation attacking in to North land .
> 
> Don't forgotten the war when Ming Dynasty army invaded in to Vietnam, there was bloody fighting in 10 years. our hero Le Loi regained our independence and founded Le Dynasty in Vietnam. Other than Cantonese refugees were organized elite troops of Ming Dynasty. Nguyen Lord could has his own reason to do that.
> 
> Cantonese came to Vietnam time to time, in small group or individual was not reported by media or not recorded by any document. it was 1,1 mill before 1975. Hua people did business to supply US army and ruled on retail market, when Vietnamese from both side were focused on fighting. then they got a big profit from Vietnam war.



why do you like to lie so much? I don't know who Mr Battle is but it's clear that from my interactions with the Vietnamese on other forums that whenever they claim they are brothers of the Cantonese it's based on a supposed genetic relationship not friendship, it all goes back to Vietnamese believing that they are part of Baiyue when in reality you guys were simply subordinates to the Zhuang at the time, like I said, in Dai Viet su luoc which was before the Ming occupation Vietnamese history begins with Zhao Tuo's reign later when the Le took power it was in Dai Viet su ky toan thu that history begins with the Hung Kings

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

^^man. I don't know who you're, sound like you're from southern Vietnamese to me. your knowleg of Eastern Asia impress me.

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## yue10

I don't know anything really, I just know enough to troll Viets LOL

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

yue10 said:


> I don't know anything really, I just know enough to troll Viets LOL



they're just bunch of clowns that like to bad mouth China and Chinese people and try to stir up trouble by playing Japan, US and India against us. Each time there is bad news about China, they're jump in the thread like flies buzzing around and cheerleading the other side. No matter how they dream and want to curse us at daily basis, at the end they're condamned to be losers at their ancestors...and GOD has blessing China with the total command and control of the Red river, their fates are in our hands.

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## Viet

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> ^^man. I don't know who you're, sound like you're from southern Vietnamese to me. your knowleg of Eastern Asia impress me.


dude, yue10 is not a Viet, he is a troller at best.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Viet said:


> dude, yue10 is not a Viet, he is a troller at best.



I think he's southern vietnamese...probably Cham people .

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## Viet

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> they're just bunch of clowns that like to bad mouth China and Chinese people and try to stir up trouble by playing Japan, US and India against us. Each time there is bad news about China, they're jump in the thread like flies buzzing around and cheerleading the other side.
> 
> No matter how they dream and want to curse us at daily basis, at the end they're condamned to be losers at their ancestors...and *GOD has blessing China with the total command and control of the Red river,* their fates are in our hands.


you sound like a terrorist. China is x times larger than Vietnam, and you think to need to resort to such thing?


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Viet said:


> you sound like a terrorist. China is x times larger than Vietnam, and you think to need to resort to such thing?



We don't need to do anything and resort such thing, and we haven't done it yet, it's just a way we thank GOD for this geographic blessing...basically what I tried to get at is that you Vietnameses like to curse Chineses when yourself are living in the cursed land.

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## Viet

Sergi said:


> @Viet or anybody from Vietnam :
> I need some information about Vietnam and i would be glad if you can support it with some source
> 
> - from where the Vietcong ( hope its not offensive ) pick up gorilla warfare ??? And any particular idol for that warfare technique ???


I am not sure, when was the first time Vietnam adopted guerilla warfare but we needed another strategy after our army suffered high casualties in the battle with the British (1945-1946). 

War in Vietnam (1945






_A Japanese naval officer surrenders his sword to a British Lieutenant in Saigon on 13th September 1945.
_



Sergi said:


> [MENTION=140273]
> - which of the state heads of VN visited India ??? Anyone of them visited any particular place in "India - Maharashtra" ???


The current Vietnamese President Truong Tan Sang visited your country on Oct. 11, 2011. He arrived at Bangalore city of Karnataka state.






http://news.chaobuoisang.net/vietnam-president-starts-india-visit-183045.htm

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## Viet

walle990 said:


> On topic, what contribution has *Vietnam *made to the world? Both in modern and ancient history, apart from being the place where political ideologies were fought?


I only know one thing: one of the Chief Architects for the Forbidden City was Nguyen An.






Nguyen An - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

History of the Forbidden City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> why do you keep using we? for the first wave of Ming loyalists you were too busy fighting amongst yourselves so you should be building altars and worshipping them or something because if it wasn't for them and Mac Cuu you people wouldn't have possession of the bustling region now, we all know the economic heart of Vietnam lies in the South not the sh1tty North with people who can't even speak properly, z z z everything so show a little gratitude and bow to your masters, as for the second wave they were solicited by the ruling French to act as the middle men so I don't know where 'we allowed' comes from



Nguyen warlord didn't liked to using you, but as human being, Nguyen lord given your ancestors chance to live in his land . if he deported your ancestors back to the sea, your ancestors should disapeared in the sea because the storms or captured back by Manchus,you coudn'nt insule him now. your are ungretful Min Yue.

Mac Cuu accepted ruling of Southern Nguyen Lord was smart decision, he could controll his land in Ha Tien for his descendants. 

Vietnam economy is based on both Red River delta and Mekong delta. Tonkin is native land of Vietnamese Nation.





> why do you like to lie so much? I don't know who Mr Battle is but it's clear that from my interactions with the Vietnamese on other forums that whenever they claim they are brothers of the Cantonese it's based on a supposed genetic relationship not friendship, it all goes back to Vietnamese believing that they are part of Baiyue when in reality you guys were simply subordinates to the Zhuang at the time, like I said, in Dai Viet su luoc which was before the Ming occupation Vietnamese history begins with Zhao Tuo's reign later when the Le took power it was in Dai Viet su ky toan thu that history begins with the Hung Kings



You mentioned about our history book "&#272;ai Vietj S&#7917; l&#432;&#417;c". The first sentance òf book stated:

_" X&#432;a hoàng &#272;&#7871; d&#7921;ng muôn n&#432;&#417;c, th&#7845;y Giao Ch&#7881; xa xôi &#7903; ngoaid cõi Bách Viêt..." _

translated in to English: 

_"Long time ago, when God created many coutnries in the world, looked at Vietnam-Jiaozhi is out of Bai Yue..."._

It mean: Vietnam (Kinh People) is not belong to Bai Yue.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Cantonese or Nan Yue considered as "brother' by Mr. Battle is understood that there is "friendship" of two neighbors people shared in near by common border, it doesn't mean we shared same bloodline with you. Like what I said in my post above that in the past we have taken care about Cantonese refugees like brothers in the past.
> 
> Cantonese refugees were allocated first in Bien Hoa, Dong Nai, it is near of Saigon today. Same way was handled by Nguyen Lord to other newcomers from North Vietnam &#7887;r other North Vietnamese were moved to south after many army operation attacking in to North land .
> 
> Don't forgotten the war when Ming Dynasty army invaded in to Vietnam, there was bloody fighting in 10 years. our hero Le Loi regained our independence and founded Le Dynasty in Vietnam. Other than Cantonese refugees were organized elite troops of Ming Dynasty. Nguyen Lord could has his own reason to do that.
> 
> Cantonese came to Vietnam time to time, in small group or individual was not reported by media or not recorded by any document. it was 1,1 mill before 1975. Hua people did business to supply US army and ruled on retail market, when Vietnamese from both side were focused on fighting. then they got a big profit from Vietnam war.



The Ming dynasty came to Vietnam to liberate you from your Chinese master, Ho Quy Ly. You should build a memorial to the Ming. If they didn't invade, you might have been under Chinese rule for several hundred more years.

Saigon and the surrounding Mekong Delta area were Khmer land, and north of Saigon was Cham land. 



Viet said:


> I only know one thing: one of the Chief Architects for the Forbidden City was Nguyen An.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nguyen An - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> History of the Forbidden City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Where are his descendants?

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> The Ming dynasty came to Vietnam to liberate you from your Chinese master, Ho Quy Ly. You should build a memorial to the Ming. If they didn't invade, you might have been under Chinese rule for several hundred more years.
> 
> Saigon and the surrounding Mekong Delta area were Khmer land, and north of Saigon was Cham land.
> 
> 
> 
> Where are his descendants?



Ho is Vietnamized, but he claimed that He is chinese when he taken power from Tran Dynasty. it was suicide politic decision, Vietnamese people didn't supported him. Hi was captured by Minh and died in China. Ho Dynasty is not considered as official Dynasty of Vietnam.

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## NiceGuy

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> they're just bunch of clowns that like to bad mouth China and Chinese people and try to stir up trouble by playing Japan, US and India against us. Each time there is bad news about China, they're jump in the thread like flies buzzing around and cheerleading the other side. No matter how they dream and want to curse us at daily basis, at the end they're condamned to be losers at their ancestors...and *GOD has blessing China with the total command and control of the Red river*, their fates are in our hands.


And GOD has blessing VietNam with the control of biggest part of SCS(east sea) where ur oil tanker must pass by 

Sorry, unlike coward China that dare not fight against US to take back Taiwan bcz their PLA suck, GOD dont bless us, we had to fight hard to defeat mighty US to gain that control

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## Wholegrain

NiceGuy said:


> And GOD has blessing VietNam with the control of biggest part of SCS(east sea) where ur oil tanker must pass by
> 
> Sorry, unlike coward China that dare not fight against US to take back Taiwan bcz their PLA suck, GOD dont bless us, we had to fight hard to defeat mighty US to gain that control



You also had to defeat the mighty Montagnards- takes alot of balls for the majority Kinh to beat up on a defenseless minority.

And before that, you had to invade Champa and perform mass genocide.....

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## EastSea

ephone said:


> Well, I know it is hard to get you, this p.o.s. to fxxk off.
> 
> 
> 
> Why China has to do is quite simple: because vn is full of just a double-faced ignorant ungrateful bastards.




Why China has a betrayal mentality ? It was quite simple: China kicked @ of Soviet 1969 to kiss @ of USA to let you join to UN. now your master USA don't let China to touch @ of Japan and Taiwan, you have to turn back to kiss @ of Russia recently. 

because China is full of just a double-faced ignorant ungrateful bastards.

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## Viet

ephone said:


> Why China has to do is quite simple: because vn is full of just a double-faced ignorant *ungrateful *bastards.


ungrateful? 

okay I now say *many thanks* for the millions of granates, you fired on us, in your last aggression against Vietnam, your clown.





_Lang Son in 1979, destroyed in the Chinese invasion (Photo: Vtn archive)
_

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## yue10

Viet said:


> dude, yue10 is not a Viet, he is a troller at best.


we do you reject your fellow Viet?



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I think he's southern vietnamese...probably Cham people .


not Cham, 100% Viet blood with superior Southern accent



Viet said:


> I only know one thing: one of the Chief Architects for the Forbidden City was Nguyen An.


yes and he was taken as tribute when he was a boy so whatever skills and knowledge he acquired he acquired them from the Chinese in China



EastSea said:


> Nguyen warlord didn't liked to using you, but as human being, Nguyen lord given your ancestors chance to live in his land . if he deported your ancestors back to the sea, your ancestors should disapeared in the sea because the storms or captured back by Manchus,you coudn'nt insule him now. your are ungretful Min Yue.
> 
> Mac Cuu accepted ruling of Southern Nguyen Lord was smart decision, he could controll his land in Ha Tien for his descendants.
> 
> Vietnam economy is based on both Red River delta and Mekong delta. Tonkin is native land of Vietnamese Nation. You mentioned about
> our history book "&#272;ai Vietj S&#7917; l&#432;&#417;c". The first sentance òf book stated:
> 
> *"X&#432;a hoàng &#272;&#7871; d&#7921;ng muôn n&#432;&#417;c, th&#7845;y Giao Ch&#7881; xa xôi &#7903; ngoaid cõi Bách Viêt..."
> 
> translated in to English:
> 
> "Long time ago, when God created many coutnries in the world, looked at Vietnam-Jiaozhi is out of Bai Yue..."
> 
> It mean: Vietnam (Kinh People) is not belong to Bai Yue*.


is this true? because I am going to use this on different forum
isn't hoang de=emperor

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## NiceGuy

Wholegrain said:


> You also had to defeat the mighty Montagnards- takes alot of balls for the majority Kinh to beat up on a defenseless minority.
> 
> And before that, you had to invade Champa and perform mass genocide.....


That's history, now Champa,Montagnards, Kinh live peacefully together

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## Soryu

yue10 said:


> we do you reject your fellow Viet?
> 
> 
> not Cham, 100% Viet blood with superior Southern accent
> 
> 
> yes and he was taken as tribute when he was a boy so whatever skills and knowledge he acquired he acquired them from the Chinese in China
> 
> 
> is this true? because I am going to use this on different forum
> isn't hoang de=emperor



Viet !? But why did you using "yue" but not Viet !?

seem like we have one more coward dog in here ...

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## BoXilai

yue10 said:


> not Cham, 100% Viet blood with superior Southern accent



You're one of 4 Vietnamese who living in NK??? No, you're just a Chinese troll. 

Ng

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## zxmint

Viet said:


> We are a family.
> 
> The Viets and Southern Han´s are much closer in terms of look than to the Northern Han´s. Nevertherless we all share the same cultures and custom. Many Viets consider the Southern Hans (Cantonese) as their true brothers and sisters as we both lived a country called NamViet in ancient times.
> 
> One of the major differences between the Viets and the Han´s lies the position of women in the society. Traditionally Viets women have more say and right than their sisters in China.



For the last point, I heard that it is your tradition that Viet men live on their women? I mean no offense cuz there are also some places in China where women go out to work while men stay at home


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## ephone

China has donated ten of thousand people's lives in your two wars against france, and U.S., trained almost all of your elite cadets, protected you during both wars from being invaded, donated tons of equipment, weapons, foods and etc while her own people suffered greatly due to famine and other shortage of basic stuff...

While you accused China right back and started your invasion into others, called the territories in China was yours and even considered quite a big area in our Yunnan, Guangxi are yours???

If I do not call that ungrateful, what should I call that???




Viet said:


> ungrateful?
> 
> okay I now say *many thanks* for the millions of granates, you fired on us, in your last aggression against Vietnam, your clown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Lang Son in 1979, destroyed in the Chinese invasion (Photo: Vtn archive)
> _

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## ephone

It seems that you lack the basic understanding of knowledge.

The fact that China joined the U.N. has nothing to do with U.S. but the great support from 3rd world countries, a lot of them from Africa. 

China's reclamation of its territories is right on schedule. We have got back HK, Macao. Taiwan will be on the short schedule as well. In addition, we have reclaimed several islands in SCS already. We will get all of them back. 

You can watch and jump up and down. 

At the end of day, to teach you, a bunch of ungrateful bastards from vn, a good lesson is the only way that works.




EastSea said:


> Why China has a betrayal mentality ? It was quite simple: China kicked @ of Soviet 1969 to kiss @ of USA to let you join to UN. now your master USA don't let China to touch @ of Japan and Taiwan, you have to turn back to kiss @ of Russia recently.
> 
> because China is full of just a double-faced ignorant ungrateful bastards.


----------



## Wholegrain

NiceGuy said:


> That's history, now Champa,Montagnards, Kinh live peacefully together



Mission to Vietnam Advocacy Day (Vietnamese-American Meet up 2013) in the U.S. Capitol. A UPR report By IOC-Campa.



> Mission to Vietnam Advocacy Day (Vietnamese-American Meet up 2013) in the U.S. Capitol. A UPR report By IOC-Campa.
> Written by Khaleelah Porome
> 
> Khaleelah Porome
> The IOC, is an organization that promotes the preservation of the Kingdom of Champas history and culture. The Champa people are an indigenous group of people that have existed in Vietnam since the 7th century. It remained in its glory days until its fall in the 10th century to its northern neighbor, Dai Viet (present day Vietnam). In 1653, Champa became a vassal state of the Nguyen until, in 1832,
> 
> Emperor Minh Menh annexed its remaining territories. This caused the erasure of the Kingdom of Champa from the map. Today all that remains of the Kingdom of Champa are its archaeological sites and the survivors of Emperor Minh Menhs ethnic cleansing policies. After 1975, when Saigon fell to the communist government of North Vietnam, the Cham lost their farms, land and properties, because they were confiscated by the government. They have been prohibited to worship and practice their religions. Practicing Hindu Cham had several ancient temples that were used for worship, confiscated and converted into tourist destinations by the Vietnamese government for their own financial benefit, violating the Cham Hindu beliefs.
> 
> About 130,000 Cham people in Vietnam currently exist in Binh Thuan and Ninh Thuan provinces (central Vietnam); Chau Doc, Ho Chi Minh City, and Tay Ninh (Southern Vietnam). The rest have fled seeking refuge in the U.S., Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia, and across Europe.
> 
> The Cham people are currently recognized by the Vietnamese government as minority group, even though they are indeed and in fact, indigenous. They meet all requirements by the UN standards and criteria, to be considered indigenous, however the Vietnamese government refuses to acknowledge this.
> 
> Recent human rights violations by the Vietnamese government against the Cham people:
> 
> In 2012, the local police used their power to bust into a local Mosque and took away a generator that provided electricity to over 40 families in the village of Chau Giang, and not long after that they came and kidnapped young village girls at their discretion to rape and sexually abuse them, eventually releasing them.
> 
> On 2009, a farm land owned by 13 Cham families From Vân Lâm villages was confiscated, when they tried to stand up for their ownership, they were apprehended by the police and discarded in an undisclosed remote location in the jungle.
> 
> In 2010, two young Cham college students from Thành Tín village are on vacation took a walk from their village to the city being stop and beat up to death.
> 
> In March 2013, a poor Cham college student Thành Xuân Th&#7883;nh from Ph&#432;&#417;c Nh&#417;n village took out a loan for school, upon graduation he was unable to get a job and sought the help of staffing agency to place him in a position, so he could pay back his student loans. The agency had promised to staff him within weeks. After a few months, he was still unemployed, and when he approached the agency about a refund, they set him on fire, and he burned to death.
> 
> Cham people who have escaped Vietnam and have become U.S. citizens, have tried to return to their native land, of Vietnam to visit family and friends. Each time they return to Vietnam they are discriminated against, harassed, and even imprisoned. Mr. Nguyen V. Xung, an exchange student to Saudi Arabia in 1973 went back to Vietnam to visit his aging mother, was kept in the hotel overnight then was eventually deported out a day after that. Mr. Musa Porome, went to Vietnam in 1989 was kept at a hotel for 5 days while being interrogated by police agents and was eventually deported out of the country. Mr. Qasim Tu went to Vietnam in 2004, and was harassed and subjected to intimidation by Vietnamese secret agent over several days, and unable to visit his family. When Mrs. Man Jone tried to visit she was arrested and imprisoned under the accusations that she was trying to introduce a new religion to the community.
> 
> The Vietnamese government is currently building a nuclear power plant in a Cham village, with old and used technology from old North Korean power plants. Many people have fought against it, including Vietnamese politicians and scientists, citing the long term adverse affects it would have on the local villages and eventually extended further into the major cities of Vietnam. People that have spoken out publicly or post anything on social media sites, are immediately approached by and harassed by the Vietnam government. A prime example is when Mr. Musa Porome wrote a letter questioning the reasoning for the development of the nuclear power plant in a currently populated area, and speaking out about it. The government immediately fired back by threatening and intimidating him and his remaining family that still resides in Vietnam. They later tried to retract the statement, when he did not back down. But, he was unable to go back to Vietnam back in November 2012, for fear that they would do something to him if he went to visit.
> 
> There are ancient Cham towers that still remain in these indigenous areas. These towers are currently being funded by UNESCO for up keep and maintenance to benefit the tourism industry. These towers are highly visited by tourist all over the world. The profit received does not benefit any of the Cham people, nor the villages in which the towers exist. It is a direct violation of the terms of agreement for the UNESCO funding.
> 
> These are just a few of the incidences against the Cham people, that have recently been relayed and documented. Many go undocumented because most people are in fear of their lives and their families lives if they speak out and protest the wrongful actions of the government.



From the F.L.M to Fulro (1955-1975)

Post-FULRO Events (1975-2004)

The Uprising of the Central Highlanders in February 2001

DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC | The True Voice of Degar People!

UN Committee Highlights Pattern of Racial Discrimination in Vietnam | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC

Degar Man Was Hung By Vietnamese Civilians | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC

VN authorities beat and torment Montagnard men | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC

VN Uses Dogs To Attack Degar Christian | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC

Save the Montagnard People, Inc. | The New Central Highlands - Asheboro, NC

The Montagnards - North Carolina Digital History

Persecution of Degar Montagnards Continues | Worthy Christian News

Vietnam religious minorities face persecution says activist < Swiss news | Expatica Switzerland



> 20/02/2012Vietnam religious minorities face persecution says activist
> 
> Authorities in Vietnam deliberately persecute and discriminate against religious minorities, a Vietnamese human rights campaigner told the UN on Monday.
> "The indigenous Montagnards and the Hmongs are among the ethnic groups who have borne the brunt of the Vietnamese governments discriminatory policies," Vo Van Ai, president of the Vietnam Committee on Human Rights said.
> He cited the cases of members of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam (UBCV), the Hoa Hao -- a Chinese minority --, the Cao Dai and Buddhist Khmer Krom who face persecution.
> Ai told the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination in Geneva that these minorities "are subject to imprisonment, torture, house arrest, police surveillance, intimidation and harassment in their daily lives."
> The head of the UBCV, Thich Quang Go, is "still under house arrest at Thanh Minhh Zen monastery after nearly 30 years in various forms of detention for the peaceful advocacy of religious freedom".
> "Ethnic and religious minorities in Vietnam suffer serious violations of their political and economic rights, such as expropriation from ancestral lands, population displacement," said Ai.
> He cited also "state-sponsored migration of Kinh people into minority regions, religious persecution, arbitrary arrest and disappearances."
> 
> © 2012 AFP



http://montagnard-foundation.org/wp/2011/07/08/1458



> Luke Simpkins sheds light on the discriminatory practices of the Vietnamese government against the Montagnards and asks that the Hanoi return land to the indigenous people and free Montagnard political prisoners.
> Below is a speech published by Montagnard Foundation:
> Today [6 July 2011] I speak of the oppression and the persecution of the Montagnard people who live in the Central Highlands of Vietnam. Prior to the Vietnam War, the Montagnards lived in hill tribe societies existing primarily through agriculture, hunting and gathering. Today, however, the Montagnards have found themselves marginalised minorities and in the words of Human Rights Watch 'have been repressed for decades'. This is due to an increasing program of ethnic relocations, beginning in the mid-1950s after the withdrawal of the French with groups being moved from the north as the Communist government in North Vietnam began to assert control over the region. The current government of Vietnam continues with this land confiscation and forced relocations as well as targeting Christian Montagnards with religious persecution.
> There is a long history of issues between the Vietnamese and the Montagnard people because, while the Vietnamese are racially diverse themselves, they do share language and culture but the Montagnard do not share that commonality. The Montagnards have for several decades sensed that their language and culture were under threat, including land ownership, education, resources and political domination. Formal opposition to the domination by the Vietnamese began in 1958 as the tribes united and even formed a military force, known as the United Front for the Liberation of Oppressed Races.
> []
> I am fortunate to have as a constituent a leading Western human rights activist, the Australian lawyer and writer Scott Johnson. Scott has been to the Central Highlands and he has seen the terrible conditions of poverty under which the Montagnards live. Scott has told me that there is no evidence whatsoever of Montagnard resistance movements that advocates armed opposition and violence. Yet there is paranoia from the Vietnamese government who choose to see the refusal of Montagnards to worship in the state controlled churches as a cover for an independence movement.
> 
> A report from Human Rights Watch released in March this year reported that since 2001 more than 350 Montagnards have been sentenced to long prison sentences, all based on vague national security charges, because of their involvement in public protests and in unregistered house churches, the only way to worship if you refuse to be in a state controlled church. I find it incredible that such nebulous charges as undermining national solidarity or disrupting security can result in a person being jailed, but that is the reality in Vietnam. I also note that Human Rights Watch report that some 25 Montagnard prisoners have died while in custody or shortly after release.
> I really do wonder how the government of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam think on these matters. They confiscate land and give it to non-Montagnard people. They oppress those who wish to worship freely and then, when there is resentment and protest, the Communist officials actually wonder why. It seems that this is a case of delusional paranoia. If the Vietnamese government left the Montagnards alone, they would not have such problems.
> 
> I thank Scott Johnson for his assistance to me and of course I thank him for his great work toward achieving justice for the Montagnards. I conclude by calling upon the government of Vietnam to restore the ancestral lands they have taken from the Montagnards, to release the hundreds of Montagnard religious and political prisoners currently held in Vietnam and to allow religious freedom across Vietnam. At the moment, that does not exist.



UNPO: Report on the 20th session of the Working Group on Indigenous Populations (Second day - Afternoon)



> Chang Yang, Hmong International Human Rights Watch
> This is our fifth time to testify at WGIP. We ask for two things
> 
> 1) Stop ethnic cleansing of Hmong in Laos.
> 2) Give access to refugees in Laos and Thailand.
> 
> The Hmong capitol has disappeared. When the Laos and Vietnamese community captured the Hmong, they would cut off the penis off and place in the mouth. For the women captured, they are raped and killed. All have sharp object shoved from the vagina to the chest cavity. For children captured, they have toes cut off and also head bashed on trees. Mr. Chair, this is a new century.
> 
> Vietnam is a member of the family of nations. We have picture of top Vietnamese General and his officers killed in 1998. They came to kill the Hmong people. I have pictures of the innocent people slaughtered by Vietnamese government. The people are coming to kill the Hmong people. The Hmong refugee that live in Laos and Thailand should be granted refugee status

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## Rechoice

Wholegrain said:


> Mission to Vietnam Advocacy Day (Vietnamese-American Meet up 2013) in the U.S. Capitol. A UPR report By IOC-Campa.
> 
> 
> 
> From the F.L.M to Fulro (1955-1975)
> 
> Post-FULRO Events (1975-2004)
> 
> The Uprising of the Central Highlanders in February 2001
> 
> DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC | The True Voice of Degar People!
> 
> UN Committee Highlights Pattern of Racial Discrimination in Vietnam | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC
> 
> Degar Man Was Hung By Vietnamese Civilians | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC
> 
> VN authorities beat and torment Montagnard men | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC
> 
> VN Uses Dogs To Attack Degar Christian | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC
> 
> Save the Montagnard People, Inc. | The New Central Highlands - Asheboro, NC
> 
> The Montagnards - North Carolina Digital History
> 
> Persecution of Degar Montagnards Continues | Worthy Christian News
> 
> Vietnam religious minorities face persecution says activist < Swiss news | Expatica Switzerland
> 
> 
> 
> http://montagnard-foundation.org/wp/2011/07/08/1458
> 
> 
> 
> UNPO: Report on the 20th session of the Working Group on Indigenous Populations (Second day - Afternoon)



your countryman f***k of on your face when you support all kind of terrorists backed by Jihad or whites man. At the end Xin Jiang terorrists could attack in Tian An Men if they want. stupid boy.


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## ChengDao

I see many daydreamer posts here about how much of southern China belongs to Vietnam and I'd like to remind all fellow readers about the official statistics for these provinces of China. Lets end this fake history of Vietnam here and now.

The ancient Chinese kingdom of &#21335;&#36234; was founded by Zhao Tuo &#36213;&#20311; (who hailed from Hebei province) and consisted of modern Yunnan, Guangdong, and Guangxi provinces respectively. Without more ado let us see where Vietnamese are the majority in these provinces! 

*Yunnan*:
Han &#8211; 67%
Yi &#8211; 11%
Bai &#8211; 3.6%
Hani &#8211; 3.4%
Zhuang &#8211; 2.7%
Dai &#8211; 2.7%
Miao &#8211; 2.5%
Hui &#8211; 1.5%
Zang &#8211; 0.3%
De'ang -0.19%

*Guangdong*:
Han - 99%
Zhuang - 0.7%
Yao - 0.2%

*Guangxi*: 
Han - 62%
Zhuang - 32%
Yao - 3%
Miao - 1%
Dong - 0.7%
_Vietnamese - 0.6%_
Gelao - 0.4% 

_As a tribute to Zhao Tuo, I will also throw in his home province of Hebei!_

*Hebei*:
Han: 96%
Man: 3%
Hui: 0.8%
Menggu: 0.3%

Be very careful not to miss the _Vietnamese_ in the statistics! These provinces were never apart of Vietnam and have never had any sizable Vietnamese presence. Kids, it is far more likely that Vietnam is a part of China! Now, lets stay on the topic of real Vietnamese history instead of baloney crap please! Case closed

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## NiceGuy

Wholegrain said:


> Mission to Vietnam Advocacy Day (Vietnamese-American Meet up 2013) in the U.S. Capitol. A UPR report By IOC-Campa.
> 
> 
> 
> From the F.L.M to Fulro (1955-1975)
> 
> Post-FULRO Events (1975-2004)
> 
> The Uprising of the Central Highlanders in February 2001
> 
> DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC | The True Voice of Degar People!
> 
> UN Committee Highlights Pattern of Racial Discrimination in Vietnam | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC
> 
> Degar Man Was Hung By Vietnamese Civilians | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC
> 
> VN authorities beat and torment Montagnard men | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC
> 
> VN Uses Dogs To Attack Degar Christian | DEGAR FOUNDATION, INC
> 
> Save the Montagnard People, Inc. | The New Central Highlands - Asheboro, NC
> 
> The Montagnards - North Carolina Digital History
> 
> Persecution of Degar Montagnards Continues | Worthy Christian News
> 
> Vietnam religious minorities face persecution says activist < Swiss news | Expatica Switzerland
> 
> 
> 
> http://montagnard-foundation.org/wp/2011/07/08/1458
> 
> 
> 
> UNPO: Report on the 20th session of the Working Group on Indigenous Populations (Second day - Afternoon)


Then, come to VN and find out the Truth, dont just take some trash on internet and post them here.


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## Wholegrain

NiceGuy said:


> Then, come to VN and find out the Truth, dont just take some trash on internet and post them here.



Isn't posting trash on the internet (including this forum) your daily job? Such as claiming Vietnam can dominate the entire ASEAN, drive "US dogs" out and bully its neighbors into submission, claiming Vietnam can destroy Indonesia with scud missles (in real life the soviet crap will fall into the ocean), claiming Vietnam can defeat Taiwan and take Taiping island, threatening to genocide Hoa people, and saying Vietnam will even dare think of attacking oil tankers in the south china sea or take over Thailand and build the Kra acanal?

Your just another loud mouth nationalist spewing crap and you almost never post any sources to support your claims.

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## Wholegrain

@NiceGuy

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...am-their-current-situation-9.html#post4551652



Viet said:


> I wonder about your good knowledge of history of Vietnam.
> 
> Indeed, to be frankly the Viets (ethnic called as *Kinh*) consider the ethnic minorities as slaves (traditionally we call them *moi *(nigger). And we are happy to be free from Han´s slavery, unlike the Tibetians, Mongols, etc...
> 
> Come on, China should thank Vietnam, even you don´t like us. Vietnam not only eliminated a hostile nation, but stopped a further expansion of Islam in SE Asia. Without our invasion, the region would look different today.



Even Cham, Khmers, Hmong and Laos and even Vietnamese in America confirm that Vietnamese Kinh are racists, Vietnamese say so themselves that they view other asians and minorities as inferior.


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## NiceGuy

Wholegrain said:


> Isn't posting trash on the internet (including this forum) your daily job? Such as claiming Vietnam can *dominate the entire ASEAN*, drive "US dogs" out and bully its neighbors into submission, claiming Vietnam can destroy Indonesia with scud missles (in real life the soviet crap will fall into the ocean), claiming Vietnam can defeat Taiwan and take Taiping island, threatening to genocide Hoa people, and saying Vietnam will even dare think of attacking oil tankers in the south china sea or take over Thailand and build the Kra acanal?
> 
> Your just another loud mouth nationalist spewing crap and you almost never post any sources to support your claims.


All what I said is the Truth, we r strongest force in ASEAN, we can defeat any other ASEAN nations in few weeks like what we did to Pol Pot in Cambodia. Without China traitor attacked us in the North from 1979 to 1988, then Thailand would fall into our hands and those US's dog like Thai King would live in exile in US now.

TW is too small to compete wt us, they even dare not fight against Phil. Taking Kra cannal is on good progress, Chinese-Thai King just learned a hard lesson from Thai-Camb's border conflict and Thai should understand that submit to VN is the Best choice , US is just too far and China is too weak to help her


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## NiceGuy

Wholegrain said:


> @NiceGuy
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...am-their-current-situation-9.html#post4551652
> 
> 
> 
> Even Cham, Khmers, Hmong and Laos and even Vietnamese in America confirm that Vietnamese Kinh are racists, Vietnamese say so themselves that they view other asians and minorities as inferior.


They r liars, that's why we kicked those liars out and they have to live in exile in US now


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## newlander

oh, any by the way, your leader bow down their head for China Government in 1991 "We are wrong " ? 
wonderful those traitor were, huh ? should they continue to fight is much better.
Those traitor even ******* change the constitution !

viet and their history , and they come to international forum with attitude to show that.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Well said @newlander, New Chinese leaders today are not the ones of previous generation, new chineses don't see these viets as Nanyue brothers...but enemies, we have squeeze them out of Influencing South East Asean such Laos and Cambodia...on top of that if we want to revenge, the most easy way is just shut the Red River off without fire a single shot , 1/3 or 30 millions of nord vietnames will be in trouble: not only water, rice farming, industry...you name it. China has encounter water shortage, it's about time to think of diverting this river.

ãTravelogue 720HDã Honghe / çº¢æ²³ä¹æ / ä¸*å½ææ¸¸æå 1/2 - YouTube

ãTravelogue 720HDã Honghe / çº¢æ²³ä¹æ / ä¸*å½ææ¸¸æå 2/2 - YouTube

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## Wholegrain

The ultimate Ah Qs scream on how they are going to defeat China and Taiwan when they can't set a single toe on the paracel islands and Taiping island and while they are exporting mail order brides.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

NiceGuy said:


> Oh man, Ah Q again ??? wt thousands VN secret agents in Laos-Camb, we can kill any Chinese there if we want and u cant do Nothing to stop us coz u r powerless and coward. Squeezing us in Laos-Camb ??poor wet dream. Come back and talk to me when China can send thousand under cover troops there like us .Idiot Ah Q.



Sorry your secret agent in Laos-Camb were just sushi, most them have been eliminated without trace when the mighty dragon has undo Vietnam influence in these two countries, your secret agents were just turkey shoot for Laos and Cambodian intelligence service that Vietnam gorvernment is speachless and helpless for their cause. 

Vietnam

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## kankan326

Rechoice said:


> We have been beating USA run away.
> 
> Your Cantonese cant regain your dependence of Nan Yue, are slaves of Hans now, they f**ck on you face no.



That's your theory. not ours. Funny thing is Vietnamese like to teach Chinese lessons on Chinese history. Fact is Cantonese are Hans. 

In 1894, it was a group of Cantonese who was the first one claiming "Expel Manchu from China and establish a Han China". This political group later became China Nationalist Party(KMT). The founding father of KMT, Sun Yetsen, was one member the group. Of course he is 100% Cantonese.

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## EastSea

kankan326 said:


> That's your theory. not ours. Funny thing is Vietnamese like to teach Chinese lessons on Chinese history. Fact is Cantonese are Hans.
> 
> In 1894, it was a group of Cantonese who was the first one claiming "Expel Manchu from China and establish a Han China". This political group later became China Nationalist Party(KMT). The founding father of KMT, Sun Yetsen, was one number the group. Of course he is 100% Cantonese.



Sun Yetsen is Hakka, no cantonese and no Han, his ancestor was Kiang or Xionu.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Sun Yetsen is Hakka, no cantonese and no Han, his ancestor was Kiang or Xionu.


Sun is Hakka, Cantonese AND Han you freaking idiot.

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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> You are Cantonese, nan Yue in native, you are slaves of Hans now. Hans look down at you, they fuc*k of on your face. Slaves don't have rights as normal human to troll here.
> 
> 200 mill chinese were killed by Japanese, KMT in civil war in China.



Why dont you idiot fly to Germany and tell those people of Sachen are "salves of German", fly to Britain and tell Wales pele can't regain their independence and Southeners of Souh Korea (whos ancestors are &#30334;&#28639; and &#26032;&#32645;&#20154 are slaves of Korean as well. To see how stupid you are.
And seems like someone forgot his own mass of people killed by Japanese and their own civil war~

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## EastSea

KirovAirship said:


> Sun is Hakka, Cantonese AND Han you freaking idiot.



It's very stranger kid, 

you are "Yue" (&#31908, not "Han" (&#28450. This is two different word in Han Ji.

Your homeland is here.


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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> @NiceGuy
> Even Cham, Khmers, Hmong and Laos and even Vietnamese in America confirm that Vietnamese Kinh are racists, Vietnamese say so themselves that they view other asians and minorities as inferior.


nice, you take my reply and post here again and again. I think I should begin to ask you for a fee.



newlander said:


> lair and coward.
> You let Hoa return, return after you steal all their property and murder them if they do not ?
> Who gave away all their property, their house, their money, even their life which their earn themself because they want to return ? simply as that, lair !
> ...
> Coward because you do not have a gut to talk what you did: ethic cleansing.


I must say your second post is full of rubbish. BTW welcome to the forum!


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> It's very stranger kid,
> 
> you are "Yue" (&#31908, not "Han" (&#28450. This is two different word in Han Ji.
> 
> Your homeland is here.


Idiot, there's nothing strange, but stupid guy like you are. Yue and Hakka are both part of modern Han. 
Also Cantonese is not a concept about bloodline, but culture.
You know nothing, NOTHING.

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## eddieInUK

Do vietnam parents in poor village consider China as a better place for living ? Do they like to marry their daughter to China for better life ?
Do Vietnamese women really long to marry Chinese men? | CNN Travel


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## yue10

eddieInUK said:


> Do vietnam parents in poor village consider China as a better place for living ? Do they like to marry their daughter to China for better life ?


like I said many times Viets have no shame, the Viet parents treat their daughters like expendables to be married off to the highest bidder because of a highly patriarchal society, it is a really sickening country, at odds might I add to Baiyue people who were much less strict on gender roles, the Zhuang, in ancient times were known for having the husband going to live with the wife and descent traced according to matriline, this is also one reason why the Trung sisters should not be considered as Vietnamese, the Vietnamese they are just stealers of history



Wholegrain said:


> Chemical Warfare in the Vietnam War: Effects of Agent Orange - Noam Chomsky (2011) - YouTube


the dude AshSharqi or is there 2 people using this account is an animal, no shame


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## Viet

Can we all stop insulting for a while? Let me post some images of Hanoi. Credits go to those who own the pics.

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## EastSea

eddieInUK said:


> Do vietnam parents in poor village consider China as a better place for living ? Do they like to marry their daughter to China for better life ?
> Do Vietnamese women really long to marry Chinese men? | CNN Travel



China is country of Human traffickers, there is the destination and is also the departure. 

Human Trafficking Ring Busted In Spain And France, Gang Smuggled Chinese Nationals Into U.S. And Europe

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## TheShaheen

Tell us about authentic Pho soup and Banh Mi... Yum yum... Some pictures of street sellers would be nice..

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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> Can we all stop insulting for a while? Let me post some images of Hanoi. Credits go to those who own the pics.



Though cannot beat Nanning, it's beautiful anyway.

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## peaceful

Vietnamese people should seriously consider the option of forcefully removing the regime in hanoi by an uprising. Look at the photos above, it is not a capital city for a nation with such a long history, it is more and more and more like a small village in China. 

Here I have a photo of our biggest city in China:
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9020/96sm.jpg


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## EastSea

peaceful said:


> Vietnamese people should seriously consider the option of forcefully removing the regime in hanoi by an uprising. Look at the photos above, it is not a capital city for a nation with such a long history, it is more and more and more like a small village in China.
> 
> Here I have a photo of our biggest city in China:
> http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9020/96sm.jpg



like a small village in China ? don't lie.

Shanghai is more bountiful than Peking, I think so.


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## Viet

peaceful said:


> Vietnamese people should seriously consider the option of forcefully removing the regime in hanoi by an uprising. Look at the photos above, it is not a capital city for a nation with such a long history, it is more and more and more like a small village in China.
> 
> Here I have a photo of our biggest city in China:
> http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9020/96sm.jpg


I wonder of your humor. It will take a while until Hanoi becomes a modern city. Though many real estates are under construction in Hanoi, such as this $2bn project Manor Central Park:






or the proposed $3 billion urban project in Binh Quoi-Thanh Da peninsula in Saigon







Bitexco assigned giant urban project | Read the Latest Real Estate and Property News including Vietnam

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## Viet

TheShaheen said:


> Tell us about authentic Pho soup and Banh Mi... Yum yum... Some pictures of street sellers would be nice..


Do you like streetfood? in Vietnam it is the best way to discover the country and her people.

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## Viet



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## NiceGuy

TheShaheen said:


> Tell us about authentic Pho soup and Banh Mi... Yum yum... Some pictures of street sellers would be nice..



If u visit Ho Chi Minh city, u should go to Ben Thanh night food market, it's on the left of Ben Thanh market in District 1, u will find lots of VN traditional foods 






> Have you ever wondered how fast a 100m-long street can become an outdoor night market? If so, head down to Phan Boi Chau or Phan Chu Trinh at around 18:00 to watch the literal mad dash of vendors setting up their stalls for the Ben Thanh night market. Starting at 19:00, the night market is popular with locals and one of my favourite places to spend an evening in Saigon.
> The street transforms into a market at a rapid pace.
> And they're off!
> 
> As soon as shopkeepers are finished setting up their tents and plastic stool-filled restaurants, it&#8217;s time to check out the well-lit booths. While not as much variety may be displayed compared to what you can find elsewhere, I like this shopping experience because you get so much more elbow room than you do inside Ben Thanh, or any other local market for that matter, to search for souvenirs or new clothes.
> Be warned that although the road is closed to car traffic, you should be prepared to dodge the occasional motorbike.
> Shirt stall at the night market
> Get your designer shirts even at night.
> After I&#8217;ve shaken my shopping bug, it&#8217;s time to grab some food and that&#8217;s where it gets hard to choose. Luckily, most of the restaurants have menus on display, some of them with large pictures. Unless I&#8217;m craving a particular Vietnamese dish, I usually cruise the street until something catches my eye.
> 
> Every local favourite is available here, from pho through to delicious seafood and barbecued pork. The food is reasonably priced, as are the drinks, and the market is open until midnight or sometimes later, for those who want to drink the night away.
> With great food and a good atmosphere, the night market is a must-see, even if you&#8217;ve been to the market during the day. Join the crowd, grab a drink, grab a stool, and enjoy a unique slice of life in the city.
> Ben Thanh night market | The Vietnam blog



This is Pho 2000 ,next to Ben Thanh night food market where Mr President Clinton visited

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## Viet

peaceful said:


> Do you seriously believe we Chinese will allow you to develop into a qualified enemy state? Sorry but a poor and underdeveloped vietnam is what we need.
> 
> As a neighbor in your north, and also a neighbor with huge foregin reserve (>30000,0000,0000 USD), we can easily manipluate your ecomony.


your greedy business people only care of making profits and more profits, not paying attention to trollers like you. So Chinese capital investment has increased 162 percent during the first four months of this year, after sitting long on the sideline. You should change your nickname to stupid hater.

Chinese investment in Vietnam rises steeply | VOV Online Newspaper


peaceful said:


>


more weapons pls, that is nice.

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## eddieInUK

EastSea said:


> China is country of Human traffickers, there is the destination and is also the departure.
> 
> Human Trafficking Ring Busted In Spain And France, Gang Smuggled Chinese Nationals Into U.S. And Europe


Sorry for that, I have seen some women from Viet in my home village, when they leave Viet, their marriage was registered with Viet embassy in China, they are all from mountain village rather than major cities like Hanoi. 

The people from Chinese village can get about from 500 dollars to 1200 dollars in the city, depending on skills. I am wondering is it really a better life than vietnam rural area ? If the women would like to go to Viet government to register their marriage, I would say they have intension to do so. People seek for better life, I am not accusing it.


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## TheShaheen

Thank you for those pictures of Street Food sellers guys...

I love Vietnamese street food.. We have a really nice Vietnamese community here near Old St. area in London and lots of Pho restaurants.. My favourite is one called Song Que (Google it) and see the menu, they do 28 or something kind of Pho soup..

Also recently someone opened a Banh Mi Cafe and it really caught on, many more are opening almost every day..

I rather talk about food then get get involved in a political argument between Vietnam and China...

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## walle

Banh mi, a sandwich in a French loaf. Speaks for the viets.


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## friendly_troll96

Lol would someone please tell me why this Pakistani girl has become kind of an internet celebrity in Vietnam? There's loads of websites writing about her but I don't know the language.




Aisyah Qolby Najmatunnisaa pakistan - Google Search

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## NiceGuy

friendly_troll96 said:


> Lol would someone please tell me why this Pakistani girl has become kind of an internet celebrity in Vietnam? There's loads of websites writing about her but I don't know the language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aisyah Qolby Najmatunnisaa pakistan - Google Search


They admire her beauty,bro

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## friendly_troll96

Soryu said:


> So, you mean: Human traffickers vs innocent girls = "better life", right !? LOL
> No wonder there is so many negative view on China
> 
> *Chinese men can not get Chinese brides, so they use money to "get" a poor Vietnamese bride who was tricked by human traffickers with sweet promise.
> 
> And now, seem like this Kid still don't know why Chinese girls and women don't care about some Chinese men. So he still crying: "pathetic, pathetic ..."*
> Kid, your fate is not better ...
> 
> Nice bro, have good taste with them and enjoy the life.
> 
> what's point of your post !?
> She is beautiful. Is it enough to make some sense !?


Lol even someone as blind as a bat can see her beauty. And, no, you don't make much sense. The point is why Vietnamese are after a Pakistani girl when there are lots of beautiful chicks on the internet from other countries. Is it some sort of a fetish or something towards a certain ethnicity? What exactly are those websites writing about her? Just curious.


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## EastSea

eddieInUK said:


> Sorry for that, I have seen some women from Viet in my home village, when they leave Viet, their marriage was registered with Viet embassy in China, they are all from mountain village rather than major cities like Hanoi.
> 
> The people from Chinese village can get about from 500 dollars to 1200 dollars in the city, depending on skills. I am wondering is it really a better life than vietnam rural area ? If the women would like to go to Viet government to register their marriage, I would say they have intension to do so. People seek for better life, I am not accusing it.



Chinese human traffickers do their job, with promises that can have work in Hanoi and Saigon, but they are brought directly to China as far away from border as they could. The victims can not escape.

Same story for China women in China:

*



"Madrid: Spanish police on Monday busted two rival Chinese prostitution rings that operated in Madrid and kept 25 women. 

In the operation, 26 people were arrested in Spain - 25 of them Chinese - as well as another 25 people who were collaborating with one of the networks in France, Spanish National Police Director Jose Ignacio Cosido said. 

The women were brought from China to Spain after paying 14,000 euros ($18,288) and being promised that they were going to work in hair styling salons with a monthly salary of 4,000 euros ($5,225), but once they were in Madrid they were kept locked up in rooms 6 meters square with no windows and forced to engage in prostitution 24 hours a day, Cosido said...."

Click to expand...

*
Spain takes down Chinese sex-trafficking rings

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## EastSea

friendly_troll96 said:


> Lol would someone please tell me why this Pakistani girl has become kind of an internet celebrity in Vietnam? There's loads of websites writing about her but I don't know the language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aisyah Qolby Najmatunnisaa pakistan - Google Search



It's very simple, Vietnamese netizens are very exited for the Pakistani girl, she is very beautiful. They shared her photo on internet.

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## EastSea

TheShaheen said:


> Thank you for those pictures of Street Food sellers guys...
> 
> I love Vietnamese street food.. We have a really nice Vietnamese community here near Old St. area in London and lots of Pho restaurants.. My favourite is one called Song Que (Google it) and see the menu, they do 28 or something kind of Pho soup..
> 
> Also recently someone opened a Banh Mi Cafe and it really caught on, many more are opening almost every day..
> 
> I rather talk about food then get get involved in a political argument between Vietnam and China...



*Banh My &#8211; Vietnamese Doner Kebab Sandwich on the Streets of Hanoi.*

Doner kebab ; Turkish: döner or döner kebap, is a Turkish dish made of meat cooked on a vertical spit, normally veal or beef but also a mixture of these with lamb; or sometimes chicken. This specialitat is available in Vietnam.



















read more here. Banh My &#8211; Vietnamese Doner Kebab Sandwich on the Streets of Hanoi

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## Viet

walle said:


> *Banh mi*, a sandwich in a French loaf. Speaks for the viets.


It tastes much better than a Chinese dish, I saw on a German television recently: 

chicken eggs cooked in children´s urine for 24 hours (!). After watching this report about China´s unique delicious cuisine, I had to puke.

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## Viet

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Well said @newlander, New Chinese leaders today are not the ones of previous generation, new chineses don't see these viets as Nanyue brothers...but *enemies*, we have squeeze them out of Influencing South East Asean such Laos and Cambodia...on top of that if we want to revenge, the most easy way is just shut the Red River off without fire a single shot , 1/3 or 30 millions of nord vietnames will be in trouble: not only water, rice farming, industry...you name it.
> China has encounter water shortage, it's about time to think of diverting this river.


WOW... isn´t a dream of a terrorist? You sound like the son of Osama Bin Laden. I wonder of how many Chinese think like you. You were one of reasonable members on defence.pk. Now your language has hardened a lot. 

What happened?

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## yue10

eddieInUK said:


> Sorry for that, I have seen some women from Viet in my home village, when they leave Viet, their marriage was registered with Viet embassy in China, they are all from mountain village rather than major cities like Hanoi.
> The people from Chinese village can get about from 500 dollars to 1200 dollars in the city, depending on skills. I am wondering is it really a better life than vietnam rural area ? If the women would like to go to Viet government to register their marriage, I would say they have intension to do so. People seek for better life, I am not accusing it.


do you know the 2 border provinces of Lao Cai and Yunnan, I read that many Chinese men like to make day trips across the border to experience the 'sights' and 'services' Vietnam has to offer, what a shame the Chinese only know Vietnam for one thing...
I read about this in a book in case anyone thinks I make things up



Viet said:


> your greedy business people only care of making profits and more profits, not paying attention to trollers like you. So Chinese capital investment has increased 162 percent during the first four months of this year, after sitting long on the sideline. You should change your nickname to stupid hater.
> more weapons pls, that is nice.


good job Chinese, do not have to worry about military intervention with this Cuba of the East just to do it passively through economic imperialism, because of ASEAN-China ACFTA Vietnam have until 2015 to lower tariffs and then the real game begins, bilateral trade between Vietnam and China already favours northerner with the idiotic Viets already struggling with $13b and $16b deficit in last 2years and now they think it's great idea to sign TPP with strict member nation only rules of origin, either Viets ruling elite do not know about economic management or they are being dictated to by the IMF and World Bank, hopefully I am missing something otherwise these Viets are in for their own century of humiliation, 




EastSea said:


> *Banh My  Vietnamese Doner Kebab Sandwich on the Streets of Hanoi.*
> 
> Doner kebab ; Turkish: döner or döner kebap, is a Turkish dish made of meat cooked on a vertical spit, normally veal or beef but also a mixture of these with lamb; or sometimes chicken. This specialitat is available in Vietnam.
> [Banh My  Vietnamese Doner Kebab Sandwich on the Streets of Hanoi[/URL]


I was going to post this, what a shame Vietnamese like Turkish food and the Turkish like Vietnamese food, this is what is wrong with globalisation, too much cultural exchange destroying the Vietnamese culture


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## Snomannen

yue10 said:


> I was going to post this, what a *shame *Vietnamese like Turkish food and the Turkish like Vietnamese food, this is what is wrong with globalisation, too much cultural exchange destroying the Vietnamese culture



My brain hurt so freaking much after reading your post.

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## yue10

^
why? bad English?


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> It tastes much better than a Chinese dish, I saw on a German television recently:
> 
> chicken eggs cooked in children´s urine for 24 hours (!). After watching this report about China´s unique delicious cuisine, I had to puke.



I read similar report too. Actually Kid's urine will not kill you and it doesn't have any bad infect (maybe?), but it is indeed horrible and @#$%. 
But you do know that 99.9999% of people would not be pleased to suck such thing in their mouths right~


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## Soryu

yue10 said:


> ^
> why? bad English?



your bullshjt, maybe !?

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## friendly_troll96

EastSea said:


> It's very simple, Vietnamese netizens are very exited for the Pakistani girl, she is very beautiful. They shared her photo on internet.



<3She's drop-dead cute, can you get me her fb? P.S. Someone tell those Vietnamese netizens to back the hell off. *angry*


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> I was going to post this, what a shame Vietnamese like Turkish food and the Turkish like Vietnamese food, this is what is wrong with globalisation, too much cultural exchange destroying the Vietnamese culture



I think you studied around Kim Il-sung's Juche ideology too much.





friendly_troll96 said:


> <3She's drop-dead cute, can you get me her fb? P.S. Someone tell those Vietnamese netizens to back the hell off. *angry*



I don't think it was some thing unreasonable comments have been made by Vietnamese netizen. The photos were shared by Aisyah Qolby Najmatunnisaa on her own Face Book page.

Here is comment of Vietnamese netizen:

*"Her beauty was perfect from the face to the detailed eyes, smile, and nose. Although Facebook is not many girl that the content is often posted personal photos, but each photo of her more than 70 thousand like. The amount of Facebook followers her close to 40,000 thousand.

By sharing information from Facebook, this girl's name is Aisyah Qolby Najmatunnisaa Pakistan, currently living in Doha. In addition, the information stated on her Facebook that she was working in Qatar Airways. This information led many netizens to guess that she is a most beautiful hostess of the airline.

There is rare pictures of this beautiful girl!"
*

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## Viet

yue10 said:


> do you know the 2 border provinces of Lao Cai and Yunnan, I read that many Chinese men like to make day trips across the border to experience the 'sights' and 'services' Vietnam has to offer, what a shame the Chinese only know Vietnam for one thing...
> I read about this in a book in case anyone thinks I make things up


Let me guess: also Chinese men go to Thailand because of one certain thing: adult entertainment 


yue10 said:


> good job Chinese, do not have to worry about military intervention with this Cuba of the East just to do it passively through economic imperialism, because of ASEAN-China ACFTA Vietnam have until 2015 to lower tariffs and then the real game begins,
> 
> bilateral trade between Vietnam and China already favours northerner with the idiotic Viets already struggling with $13b and *$16b deficit *in last 2years and now they think it's great idea to sign TPP with strict member nation only rules of origin, either Viets ruling elite do not know about economic management or they are being dictated to by the IMF and World Bank,
> hopefully I am missing something otherwise these Viets are in for their own century of humiliation,


how about increase import of farm produces from Vietnam, help us to narrow the trade deficit? You can increase your image in Vietnam a lot by doing so. Instead you buy extremly expensive products from countries like Germany. Such as baby milk for a triple price. Crazy!

Babynahrung - Chinas Durst auf Milch - Wirtschaft - Hamburger Abendblatt


yue10 said:


> I was going to post this, what a shame Vietnamese like Turkish food and the Turkish like Vietnamese food, this is what is wrong with globalisation, too much cultural exchange destroying the Vietnamese culture


I don´t see anything wrong in this. That is your own perception.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> I read similar report too. Actually Kid's urine will not kill you and it doesn't have any bad infect (maybe?), but it is indeed horrible and @#$%.
> But you do know that 99.9999% of people would not be pleased to suck such thing in their mouths right~


how´s about this dish for rich Chinese: edible bird nests? once reserved for emperors and their courts in Vietnam and China. Sell for $1,500 per kilogram wholesale and about $2,500 per kilogram retail...

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## TheShaheen

I admire Vietnamese people for their honesty, hard work, tunnel-digging and the way they defeated a much superiour enemy by ingenuity... Now it's an up-and-coming country and deservedly so...

Some people in these threads should stop being insulting..

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## yue10

Soryu said:


> your bullshjt, maybe !?


what BS? everything I post is true, if you want source just ask and I will give them to you, it's not my fault I have to wait to 30 posts to put in links



EastSea said:


> I think you studied around Kim Il-sung's Juche ideology too much.





Viet said:


> I don´t see anything wrong in this. That is your own perception


and what is wrong with Juche? in case you hadn't noticed I have the DPRK's flag up, Vietnam needs import substitution policies in place so the dream of an autarkic state can be achieved otherwise Vietnam is just a slave nation, I have said this before that an adapted version of Edo Japan is what Vietnam should become

it is because of guys like you 2 is why I troll Viets, your country is no longer under foreign rule but your mindset is: 
as the Party resolution states, we are trying to preserve the national culture but, actually, we have not suceeded - for example, our language is affected, everyday life is influenced by foreign tastes, and we dont respect our identity - we just do it to show outsiders 
it is difficult for older people, who have experienced two wars against the French and Americans, to lose their spirit of national independence, unity and national identity - but the young are exposed to various cultures, which easily affect Vietnamese tradition, if this situation continues, our national culture will disappear 



Viet said:


> Let me guess: also Chinese men go to Thailand because of one certain thing: adult entertainment
> how about increase import of farm produces from Vietnam, help us to narrow the trade deficit? You can increase your image in Vietnam a lot by doing so. Instead you buy extremly expensive products from countries like Germany. Such as baby milk for a triple price. Crazy!.


this is wrong reaction, if you are true to mother country then you should be mad that the Chinaman dare to step foot into VN and doing this kind of business but instead you compare to the degenerate paradise of Thailand

the honourable Chairman Mao dreamed of agricultural self sufficiency but unfortunately because of the Chinese people's natural inability to cultivate rice they actually import rice from Vietnam, Chinese is currently suffering from cadmium laced rice yield originating in Hunan province, shocking Chinese people endangering even their own people
by the way TPP is going to destroy your agricultural sector so don't worry too much about it



TheShaheen said:


> I admire Vietnamese people for their honesty, hard work, tunnel-digging and the way they defeated a much superiour enemy by ingenuity... Now it's an up-and-coming country and deservedly so...
> Some people in these threads should stop being insulting..


lies! if you are talking about the Mongols, then yes, the Vietnamese defeated a much superior enemy by 'ingenuity' aka dirty tactics but if you are talking about Frenchy or US then you should actually talk about Soviet and Red China intervention


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## yue10

Vietnamese members! let me ask you some questions about your country, is there any areas in Vietnam that have all year round cool weather, I have heard about Da Lat but is there anywhere else? also is Da Lat developed or still very much rural, is there many tourist or foreigner devils there?


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> Vietnamese members! let me ask you some questions about your country, is there any areas in Vietnam that have all year round *cool weather*, I have heard about Da Lat but is there anywhere else? also is Da Lat developed or still very much rural, is there many tourist or foreigner devils there?


Da Lat is one of the most beautiful cities in Vietnam: nice, cool weather and beautiful landscape. Sure, all wannabe rich want to live in Da Lat.

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## Viet

I heard of Sapa. The city shall be cool. Personally I haven´t not been there yet.

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## NiceGuy

Viet said:


> I heard of Sapa. The city shall be cool. Personally I haven´t not been there.


Its cool , but it have snow somtime in the winter

snow in sapa

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## EastSea

@yue10: You can visit Vietnam first then you can troll.
(I have been to the Korean Restaurant last year when I have my business in Hanoi)

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## ViXuyen

friendly_troll96 said:


> Lol even someone as blind as a bat can see her beauty. And, no, you don't make much sense. The point is why Vietnamese are after a Pakistani girl when there are lots of beautiful chicks on the internet from other countries. Is it some sort of a fetish or something towards a certain ethnicity? What exactly are those websites writing about her? Just curious.


The main points of the Vietnamese articles are:

There is a girl name xx, she is very pretty and from Pakistan, ever since she posted her pics she got 39k likes, she might have photoshoped her pics, etc....

Basically, one Vietnamese internet news write about her, the rest copy. It's not a thing for any particular ethnicity. Vietnamese online news/teenage news have written many articles about random/famous beautiful girls from the countries.

I'm pretty sure all Vietnamese including myself are very baffled to know that she's from Pakistan? Are you guys sure she is from Pakistan and not Malaysia, Indonesia, or Phillipines?

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## friendly_troll96

ViXuyen said:


> The main points of the Vietnamese articles are:
> 
> There is a girl name xx, she is very pretty and from Pakistan, ever since she posted her pics she got 39k likes, she might have photoshoped her pics, etc....
> 
> Basically, one Vietnamese internet news write about her, the rest copy. It's not a thing for any particular ethnicity. Vietnamese online news/teenage news have written many articles about random/famous beautiful girls from the countries.
> 
> I'm pretty sure all Vietnamese including myself are very baffled to know that she's from Pakistan? Are you guys sure she is from Pakistan and not Malaysia, Indonesia, or Phillipines?



She's a pakhtoon girl and it's not uncommon for pakhtoons, especially girls, to have that 'asian look'...kind of chinky eyes, pale skin and a roundish face. Even a male pakistani member 'pakhtoon' looks somewhat like her. My friends say I look half middle eastern half 'asian', mongolian and whatnot and I'm not even a pakhtoon.


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## Wholegrain

friendly_troll96 said:


> She's a pakhtoon girl and it's not uncommon for pakhtoons, especially girls, to have that 'asian look'...kind of chinky eyes, pale skin and a roundish face. Even a male pakistani member 'pakhtoon' looks somewhat like her. My friends say I look half middle eastern half 'asian', mongolian and whatnot and I'm not even a pakhtoon.



Only Pashtuns in Pakistan have that look or Afghanistan too? Don't Hazaras stand out in Afghanistan since they look Mongolian?


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## friendly_troll96

Wholegrain said:


> Only Pashtuns in Pakistan have that look or Afghanistan too? Don't Hazaras stand out in Afghanistan since they look Mongolian?



You're right, Hazaras do look Mongolian. I've seen at least one afghan family with that look but I'm not sure if they are pakhtoon.


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## Viet

TheShaheen said:


> I admire Vietnamese people for their honesty, hard work, *tunnel-digging *and the way they defeated a much superiour enemy by ingenuity... Now it's an up-and-coming country and deservedly so...
> 
> Some people in these threads should stop being insulting..


In the 13th century, Vietnam under command of Tran Hung Dao defeated the mighty Mongole horde and stopped their further expansion in South East Asia. We remember, the Mongole Empire at their height expanded their power over China, vast part of Asia and Eastern Europe, but suffered one of their bitter defeats in Vietnam. They launched three major invasions into Vietnam in the 13th century and failed badly.

Some history reports say the Mongols sent in the first campaign about 55.000 soldiers (1257), in the second campaign 200,000 soldiers (1285), and finally 500,000 soldiers into the battles (1287). The numbers may be not accurate.

The Vietnamese victories were not due to tunnel-digging...LOL








Tran Hung Dao - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Vietnam





_Map depicting Mongol campaign in &#272;&#7841;i Vi&#7879;t in the north and Champa in the south_

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## EastSea

friendly_troll96 said:


> She's a pakhtoon girl and it's not uncommon for pakhtoons, especially girls, to have that 'asian look'...kind of chinky eyes, pale skin and a roundish face. Even a male pakistani member 'pakhtoon' looks somewhat like her. My friends say I look half middle eastern half 'asian', mongolian and whatnot and I'm not even a pakhtoon.



Following Wiki: Pashtun people comprise over 15% of Pakistan's population 29, million. I can not distinguish between the Pakistan people and Afghanistan people by looking. Sorry.


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## yue10

Viet said:


> Da Lat is one of the most beautiful cities in Vietnam: nice, cool weather and beautiful landscape. Sure, all wannabe rich want to live in Da Lat.


what do you mean all the wannabe rich want to live there, is it only for rich people? in the future I am looking to live there so can I ask what is the average house price there? 

I know of the Sapa too but it is in the North so I don't want to go there and also I read that it is tourist hotspot so too much foreigner for me




EastSea said:


> @yue10: You can visit Vietnam first then you can troll.
> (I have been to the Korean Restaurant last year when I have my business in Hanoi)


i will try to stop trolling Viets since you seem like ok people, at least more reasonable than Viets on other forums but already I have visited VN last year, first in HCMC and then Quy Nhon, I was also supposed to go see Mr HCM's mausoleum but I had to leave VN early


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## yue10

friendly_troll96 said:


> She's a pakhtoon girl and it's not uncommon for pakhtoons, especially girls, to have that 'asian look'...kind of chinky eyes, pale skin and a roundish face. Even a male pakistani member 'pakhtoon' looks somewhat like her. My friends say I look half middle eastern half 'asian', mongolian and whatnot and I'm not even a pakhtoon.



I heard of the Pashtun and their 'death by golden shower', the saying "revenge is a dish best served cold" came from these people, they are barbaric race of people


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## TheShaheen

EastSea said:


> Following Wiki: Pashtun people comprise over 15% of Pakistan's population 29, million. I can not distinguish between the Pakistan people and Afghanistan people by looking. Sorry.



There are lots of different tribes in Afghanistan.. Hazeris, Pashtuns etc,,, Most of them look like Pakistanis. but Pashtuns do look like Mongols... The guy who owns the booze shop in my area in London is a Pashtun and his nickname amongst his customers is 'Mr Chinaman'

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## Viet

@NiceGuy, @EastSea, @Rechoice and @Soryu and others

I read that VN government imposes new regulations on Internet, e.i. personal views are allowed, but forbidden is the redistribution of political information. 

Does it affect your contribution on defence.pk or any other web sites?

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## Viet

yue10 said:


> what do you mean all the wannabe rich want to live there, is it only for rich people? in the future I am looking to live there so can I ask what is the average *house price t*here?


I don´t live in Vietnam, so may other Vietnamese members answer how much a house or apartment costs in Da Lat. But it is for sure, it is not cheap as nearly everyone wants to live or spend their holidays there.

The city is also home of the Summer Palace of the last Emperor of Vietnam: Bao Dai

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## EastSea

Viet said:


> @NiceGuy, @EastSea, @Rechoice and @Soryu and others
> 
> I read that VN government imposes new regulations on Internet, e.i. personal views are allowed, but forbidden is the redistribution of political information.
> 
> Does it affect your contribution on defence.pk or any other web sites?



1. It's related to Website registered in Vietnam only.
2. Ngh&#7883; &#273;&#7883;nh 72 &#273;ã quy &#273;&#7883;nh r&#7845;t rõ vi&#7879;c c&#7845;m Gi&#7843; m&#7841;o t&#7893; ch&#7913;c, cá nhân và phát tán thông tin gi&#7843; m&#7841;o, thông tin sai s&#7921; th&#7853;t xâm h&#7841;i &#273;&#7871;n quy&#7873;n và l&#7907;i ích h&#7907;p pháp c&#7911;a t&#7893; ch&#7913;c, cá nhân. 
When I say something, it's is my idea, I will be personally responsible for that. If I quote, redistribute the information from some one else or others agencies or refer to other source, I have to provide the link.

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## TheShaheen

TheShaheen said:


> There are lots of different tribes in Afghanistan.. Hazeris, Pashtuns etc,,, Most of them look like Pakistanis. but Pashtuns do look like Mongols... The guy who owns the booze shop in my area in London is a Pashtun and his nickname amongst his customers is 'Mr Chinaman'



I am going to correct myself here, he told me he is a Hazeri, it's them that look like Mongols..

I believe Mr Karzai the president is a PAshtun and they look like Pakistanis...

Most of the people from Asia are related to Genghis Khan (real name Timucin), including Turks who ran away from them towards Europe and still trying to get in..

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

TheShaheen said:


> There are lots of different tribes in Afghanistan.. Hazeris, Pashtuns etc,,, Most of them look like Pakistanis. but Pashtuns do look like Mongols... The guy who owns the booze shop in my area in London is a Pashtun and his nickname amongst his customers is 'Mr Chinaman'



Its turkic people who look like "chinaman"


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## DESERT FIGHTER

friendly_troll96 said:


> She's a pakhtoon girl and it's not uncommon for pakhtoons, especially girls, to have that 'asian look'...kind of chinky eyes, pale skin and a roundish face. Even a male pakistani member 'pakhtoon' looks somewhat like her. My friends say I look half middle eastern half 'asian', mongolian and whatnot and I'm not even a pakhtoon.



Could be from any ethnicity... probably hazara.


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## Soryu

Viet said:


> @NiceGuy, @EastSea, @Rechoice and @Soryu and others
> 
> I read that VN government imposes new regulations on Internet, e.i. personal views are allowed, but forbidden is the redistribution of political information.
> 
> Does it affect your contribution on defence.pk or any other web sites?



Not at all, some info were twisted by somebody at outside Vietnam.
You can go to many political site by Vietnamese in blogpot or Facebook, nothing to worry.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

yue10 said:


> I heard of the Pashtun and their 'death by golden shower', the saying "revenge is a dish best served cold" came from these people, they are barbaric race of people



They are our people and one of the best people on the planet....enmity n frndship are valued traits of pashtuns......

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## TheShaheen

I was serious about 'The Tunnels' in Vietnam... I have just seen a 1 hr documentary about it..

While coming back with supplies on The Ho Chi Minh trail, the tunnels acted as meeting, hiding, storing places.. They also stopped fighters being killed from US bombing from above.. That's why the Americans used 'Agent Orange' made by yours truly, Monsanto.. In face Monsanto made other 'Agents' too , red, Blue so on to defoliate the forests of Vietnam.. The chemicals are still in the ground to this day, poisoning people..

The Americans were so worried about the success of the tunnels, they created a special platoon called 'The Tunnel Rats', whose job it was to go in there and flush out Viet Kong fighters.. Hell of a horrible job if you ask me, as these tunnels were more than often booby-trapped.. A lot of them got killed in there..

As far as i know the tunnels are a tourist attraction now.. (Pictures please, i am not allowed to paste them yet)


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## Viet

TheShaheen, the most famous tunnels are located in the city of Cu Chi, a part of Saigon. When the GI´s discovered the existence of the secret tunnels, the so-called tunnel rats were deployed searching and killing the Vietcongs. Many of the rats never came back.

If you need more info, You can google yourself by typing Cu Chi tunnel. There are a lot of pictures. 














Cu Chi tunnels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







today as tourist attraction

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## Viet

zxmint said:


> For the last point, I heard that it is your tradition that Viet men live on their women? I mean no offense cuz there are also some places in China where women go out to work while men stay at home


where did you get this info? taken from a Chinese history book? LOL

if true, then you must see lot of Viet men lazing around at home or on the street, right? No. Let me post more images of Vietnam, the southern part of Saigon today.

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## Viet



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## Sun Piwa

Death to the corrupted north vietnamese, they were vietcongs

Look the country they've done: nasty, poor and corrupted/racist. Not like the capitalist South Korea


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## jaibi

I would recommend all PDF members to read on the exploits of the Vietnamese air force it gave one of the toughest challenges to the USAF something which has not been replicated ever since (an Eastern air force dominating a Western air force).


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## Sun Piwa

Viet is the typicall nv vietcong who think he's a genius of the War, when he was backed up by Russia and China

If you are genius, why the vietnamese Army has not evolved since the 70's? You are just uncompetent corrupted arrogant people

Why don't you say that China has taken a huge part of North Vietnam if you are genius of the War?


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## Sun Piwa

NiceGuy said:


> All what I said is the Truth, we r strongest force in ASEAN, we can defeat any other ASEAN nations in few weeks like what we did to Pol Pot in Cambodia. Without China traitor attacked us in the North from 1979 to 1988, then Thailand would fall into our hands and those US's dog like Thai King would live in exile in US now.
> 
> TW is too small to compete wt us, they even dare not fight against Phil. Taking Kra cannal is on good progress, Chinese-Thai King just learned a hard lesson from Thai-Camb's border conflict and Thai should understand that submit to VN is the Best choice , US is just too far and China is too weak to help her



Wahahahahaha Why don't you mention that North Vietnam was over armed during the Vietnam war, contrary to the red kmers?

Why don't you say that Vietnam ruled by the NV have a rusting army, who would be crushed in days by China?


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## Sun Piwa

Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam was the ultimate looser then since France colonized the entire country, and apparenlty Vietnam is still a looser today since we control Taiping island and Vietnam claims it as its own territory.



Vietnam ruled by the corrupted NV please!

If you can see the films made by the NV regime, you would see the level of uncompetence of those people

They are here just to rule and take the money, they don't care of the people hate them.


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## Sun Piwa

xunzi said:


> Is Vietnam our friend or enemy? I cannot get a good understanding of this country?



Just one thing: if you need to make war against Vietnam, don't hesitate.
It will liberate Vietnam from the domination of the ridiculous NV

I prefer a Vietnam totally anihilated than the domination of the corrupted uncompetent NV


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## cnleio

My question, is there conflict between North Vietnam and South Vietnam still existing ? What about those oversea South Vietnamese, can they return curret Vietnam homeland ?


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## Viet

Sun Piwa said:


> Viet is the typicall nv vietcong who think he's a genius of the War, when he was backed up by Russia and China
> If you are genius, why the vietnamese Army has not evolved since the 70's? You are just uncompetent corrupted arrogant people
> 
> Why don't you say that China has taken a huge part of North Vietnam if you are genius of the War?


where are you from really? your comments are annoying and full of rubbish. Post reported, dumbass.

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## Soryu

Sun Piwa said:


> Just one thing: if you need to make war against Vietnam, don't hesitate.
> It will liberate Vietnam from the domination of the ridiculous NV
> 
> I prefer a Vietnam totally anihilated than the domination of the corrupted uncompetent NV


You said like a traitor dogs, that why Republic of Vietnam was defeated by Nothern and Southern Vietnam liberation forces.
You can stay whole life at oversea and enjoy your freedom and wealth.
And we will living, building, and protec our homeland.


cnleio said:


> My question, is there conflict between North Vietnam and South Vietnam still existing ? What about those oversea South Vietnamese, can they return curret Vietnam homeland ?


South Vietnam was incorrect term that's used by USA in Vietnam War. What's mean of "South Vietnam" !? If you want to mention government and regime of Southern of Vietnam "Republic of Vietnam", then they weren't exist anymore.

Today, some people inside Vietnam and oversea (many of them run out Vietnam at the end of Vietnam War) don't satisfies and hate Communist Regime, so they wanted to overthrow current Government.

oversea's Vietnamese can return Vietnam if they want and don't have intention like above.

In personal, I don't like many things from current Government, but I don't believe in opposition side, it's smell so bad way.

I think we can progress to better society, day by day. There's many way to building up our Country, better than become other Cambodia or even worst like Syria.

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## cnleio

Soryu said:


> South Vietnam was incorrect term that's used by USA in Vietnam War. What's mean of "South Vietnam" !? If you want to mention government and regime of Southern of Vietnam "Republic of Vietnam", then they weren't exist anymore.
> 
> Today, some people inside Vietnam and oversea (many of them run out Vietnam at the end of Vietnam War) don't satisfies and hate Communist Regime, so they wanted to overthrow current Government.
> 
> oversea's Vietnamese can return Vietnam if they want and don't have intention like above.
> 
> In personal, I don't like many things from current Government, but I don't believe in opposition side, it's smell so bad way.
> 
> I think we can progress to better society, day by day. There's many way to building up our Country, better than become other Cambodia or even worst like Syria.


Okay, this's the best answer i read. Ths !
BTW i mean the Vietnamese come from origianl "Republic of Vietnam"


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## NiceGuy

Sun Piwa said:


> Vietnam ruled by the corrupted NV please!
> 
> If you can see the films made by the NV regime, you would see the level of uncompetence of those people
> 
> They are here just to rule and take the money, they don't care of the people hate them.


Angry and envy wt the Govt ??haha.. who cares "chó c&#7913; s&#7917;a,&#273;oàn ng c&#7913; &#273;i". can u translate it into E ?


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## Viet

cnleio said:


> My question, is there conflict between North Vietnam and South Vietnam still existing ? What about those oversea South Vietnamese, can they return curret Vietnam homeland ?


In real life, the South Vietnamese dislike the North Vietnamese and vice versa. There are some historial reasons. One aspect is they are slighty different in terms of custom and culture. The other reason lies in when Vietnam was divided, both sides developed in different directions. They don´t like each other. 

To understand this one must go back in 16 centuries when Vietnam was ruled by two competing Viet´s dynasties: the Trinh in the North and the Nguyen in the South. Both claimed to be the true successor of the Le dynasty. The last civil war drives them more apart.

Tr

As for the Overseas Viets (many are South Vietnamese fleeing the country after the collapse of Saigon regime), they can enter Vietnam at any time, no visa is required.

Correction: visa is required for overseas Viets, but once granted (and that is easy!), the visa is valid for 5 years. Anyway the Vietnamese government sees any Vietnamese as her citizen regardless of the color of passport.

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## Viet

jaibi said:


> I would recommend all PDF members to read on the exploits of the* Vietnamese air force* it gave one of the toughest challenges to the USAF something which has not been replicated ever since (an Eastern air force dominating a Western air force).


the battle over Vietnam sky told by Americans:

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## Minjitta

Viet said:


> discover your enemy´s strength and weakness, be smart and disciplined on battlefields...actually there is no secrets.
> 
> 
> you are right. Some southern Vietnamese are mixed with Chams and Khmers, no surprise giving the neighborhood, while Northern Vietnamese are mixed with Southern Chinese.
> 
> Again NanYue was not a Chinese kingdom.


The south mostly from the north and migrated to the south. The mix between the Chams and Khmers are very rare, if any it the male Viets doing the mixing, cause it very rare to see Chams are Khmers last name. Now if you go to the Khmers area in southern parts their are groups of Khmers still have their last name in Khmers but translated to Viet.



Viet said:


> you are right...Hanoier and Shanghai for example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Viet girl_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Chinese girl_


Most of the time you can tell the different in the eyes lids


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## ChineseTiger1986

Minjitta said:


> The south mostly from the north and migrated to the south. The mix between the Chams and Khmers are very rare, if any it the male Viets doing the mixing, cause it very rare to see Chams are Khmers last name. Now if you go to the Khmers area in southern parts their are groups of Khmers still have their last name in Khmers but translated to Viet.



Most of modern Viets got the blood from Chams and Khmers in their vein, so stop being ashamed of it.


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## Minjitta

djsjs said:


> vietnam was developing fast in the past decades.*we* can predict that in several decades vietnam would be a regional power of southeast asia ,both in econemy and military. so my question is when will Vietnamese invade Laos Kampuchea Thailand,what's the detail plan do you guys think is the best?
> i wish vietnamese answer my questions honestly. no need to cover your real thought,as we Chinese know your embitions too well.


We is from China view, which China wanted Vietnam neighbors to feel uncomfortable and against Vietnam, in return to favorite with China against Vietnam.
Viet know how it feel and to resist foreign occupied, so why would Viet do the same like China, French and USA by invading other countries.


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## Minjitta

djsjs said:


> @Viet
> 
> do you feel it's a lose that vietnamese give up learning Chinese characters? as the vietnam historical records, cultural relics are all writen in chinese&#65311; maybe latin Latin alphabets help you reduce the illiteracy rate much ,but simuteniously it feels like you cut yourself from your history.
> do you have a feeling that you are in a foreign country when you visit an ancient house on which words writen are all chinese characters you cannot read?



LOL it feel more like we got rid of Chinese off our back, I would love to get rid of all those Chinese characters and translate to modern Vietnamese, and band all Chinese Characters in Vietnam period, but it would not happen unless Chinese and Vietnamese go to war again the young generation will get rid of those Chinese character just because they don't understand and hate Chinese.

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## Minjitta

Fattyacids said:


> That was mythology. If you are talking about real history, he did not exist.



Depend who wrote the histories, and which histories you in favor of. To Chinese it mythology because that's how Chinese historian wanted the readers the read.

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## Minjitta

BoXilai said:


> Most of Vietnamese now are not pure Viet people. A small amount of them can be find in Northern provinces. They're called Giao Ch&#7881; (Jiaozhi) people.
> 
> Look at geographical location you can know why some Vietnamese looks like Chinese while some other ones looks like Thai, Lao,...
> 
> Vietnamese now = [Pure Viet mixed with Han(a big amount of them living in the North Vietnam and north of Central Vietnam, even if Vietnamese government did not mass expelled Chinese Vietnamese in 1979, this number can be larger) + Pure Viet mixed with Khmer, Cham,...(Most of people in the South Vietnam and south of Central Vietnam) + Pure Viet(a small amount, they can be found in Phu Tho, Bac Giang, Ha Nam, Hai Duong, Hung Yen, Thai Binh,Nam Dinh,...)] + 55 other nations(3% of population)


If you said are true, which I think it a mystical then why 90% of Vietnamese still have our last name?


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## Fattyacids

Minjitta said:


> Depend who wrote the histories, and which histories you in favor of. To Chinese it mythology because that's how Chinese historian wanted the readers the read.



Mythology and history are mutually exclusive.


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## Minjitta

djsjs said:


> vietnamnese.how many chinese festivals do you keep now?



Those festivals we celebrates are before China, and Vietnam born.


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## Minjitta

Viet said:


> Yes, it is another name for Saigon. Just some few of Southern Vietnamese want to use this name HCM. By the way, Saigon officialy is a part of HCM city.
> 
> The traffic in the city is crazy. It is an adventure to cross the street. You must wait for several years until the subway is complete.


Before 1975 it call Saigon after 1975 or so Saigon change to HCM but all southerners still call it Saigon, only foreigner call HCM

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## Minjitta

Wholegrain said:


> The warmongerers are countries which are making arbitrary claims to already occupied and claimed islands like the Philippines. Vietnam is much more racist than China and you know it, even the Vietnamese Americans here all hate darker skinned people. They think Laotians, Cambodians, and Chams are inferior, we have all of those people livinig in America and in return they also have negative views of Vietnamese.
> 
> Its not just the Vietnamese people having negative attitudes towards other southeast asians, Vietnam's policy treats Laos like a vassal state.
> 
> China has not claimed one inch beyond the borders it set in the 1940s. It even gave up claims like Kachin state in Myanmar and Mongolia.
> 
> The Chinese media hardly mentions Vietnam.
> 
> On the other side, the Vietnamese media is obsessed with demonizing China and Chinese people. As if China is doing something that's pissing them off really badly, but they can't do anything about it so they lash out in their media. Whenever something bad happens its because of China according to the Vietnamese media.
> 
> Obsessed 'hell' of southwestern girls - News VietNamNet
> 
> Rural girls marry foreign men for filial duty - News VietNamNet
> 
> Analyzing Vietnam-China trade relations - News VietNamNet
> 
> Chinese merchants flock to Vietnam to collect farm produce - News VietNamNet
> 
> And that's just the English version of Vietnamese media.
> 
> And speaking of refugees from Northern Vietnam to Southern Vietnam, South Vietnamese dictator Ngo Dinh Diem dumped tons of people like your grandfather onto Montagnard land and dispossed them of their land. Seeing as both the Montagnards and the northern Vietnamese refugees were Catholic, it could only have been racially motivated. The Vietnamese Communist Party continues to disposess the Montagnards of their land.


You are born in Vietnam, and Your parents did not become Vietnam citizen and got kick out of Vietnam in 1979. Did you ever said thanks to Vietnam your birth place? Vietnam still is your place of birth where ever you live, it must a hurt you that your bird place is Vietnam. 

Now you tried to connect your self with Twain and China in general. Did you ever attempt to move to China and claim that you are Chinese with the local Chinese. Why don't try that and come back to this forum and tell us your true story, instead posting all your bs .

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## Minjitta

Viet said:


> You are right. We look different like day and night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viet girl


You guys are blind the only different are how they dress, both girl eyes are look like Vietnamese, both girls eyes are not slant. Both have double eyes lid

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## Minjitta

KirovAirship said:


> Hong Kong and Macau are two tiny CITIES of China, yet your WHOLE land were ruled by your neighbors for more than 1000 years. Tell me how thick your face could be.
> 
> 'Protectorate' you say, how about "poor" S.Korea and Japan. Daheck is 'half-independence' state, didn't you people claim that your big bad bully "stole" your islands~ are you the 'half-independence' state~? The 4 lands Macau, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Mainland you have mentioned are all more developed than your country. You mad~?


Why can't Mighty China protect the two little cities?

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## Minjitta

ephone said:


> Am I talking about east turkestan???
> 
> Why cannot you get the fxxk off my comments???
> 
> What a retard.


Wholegrain wanted to be whole Chinese why don't you take him in like Chinese brother? Even those his parent and him was born in Vietnam.


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## Minjitta

NiceGuy said:


> Then, come to VN and find out the Truth, dont just take some trash on internet and post them here.



I don't think wholegrian wanted to go back to Vietnam when his family got kick out of Vietnam . He is here to take down Vietnam in ever possible ways, that's his only purpose in life. He have to hide behind Twain flag to hide his pass sorrow, so please don't get to hard on him. We also needed all Chinese members here to except wholegrain as wholeChinese brotherly hood.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Minjitta said:


> You guys are blind the only different are how they dress, both girl eyes are look like Vietnamese, both girls eyes are not slant. Both have double eyes lid



What is the 'Viet look'?

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## Minjitta

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> What is the 'Viet look'?


None mix Viet male or female got double eye lids, very rare you see Viet with slant one lid eye. I wanted to said 100% of Vietnamese have double eye lib and not slant as Chinese eye, but there are no such thing 100%.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Minjitta said:


> None mix Viet male or female got double eye lids, very rare you see Viet with slant one lid eye. I wanted to said 100% of Vietnamese have double eye lib and not slant as Chinese eye, but there are no such thing 100%.



Many Chinese got double eye lid as well, including the North Chinese.

There is no such thing that - double eye lid = Viet and single eye lid = Chinese.

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## peaceful

Minjitta said:


> You just being stupid with your hatred inner self. You needed to get out of your cave more often.



you simply can't face all these undisputed facts listed above. challenge me on those assertions, tell me which one is incorrect.


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## Wholegrain

Minjitta said:


> The south mostly from the north and migrated to the south. The mix between the Chams and Khmers are very rare, if any it the male Viets doing the mixing, cause it very rare to see Chams are Khmers last name. Now if you go to the Khmers area in southern parts their are groups of Khmers still have their last name in Khmers but translated to Viet.
> 
> 
> Most of the time you can tell the different in the eyes lids



Dai Viet issued laws forbidding Vietnamese men from marrying Cham women in 1499, and right after that it began large scale massacres and genocide against the Cham people.

Blood and Soil

Law and the Chinese in Southeast Asia - Google knygos

The Flaming Womb



Minjitta said:


> We is from China view, which China wanted Vietnam neighbors to feel uncomfortable and against Vietnam, in return to favorite with China against Vietnam.
> Viet know how it feel and to resist foreign occupied, so why would Viet do the same like China, French and USA by invading other countries.



Do you come from some parallel universe where Vietnam never invaded Champa? We know how Vietnam feels towards the Indianized southeast asians, you view them (the Thai, Cham, Cambodians, Laotians, Malaysians, Indonesians) as inferior and lazy, because they adopted Indic civilization.

But we don't judge people by their culture or civilization. We know that Confucian Dai Viet was the enemy of China but the states like the Sulu Sultanate where we share almost no culture in common were our ally.



Minjitta said:


> Why can't Mighty China protect the two little cities?



Macau was not taken in a war. China beat the Portuguese and executed their entire delegation when they invaded the Malacca Sultanate. Macau was leased as a trading depot.

Vietnam got beaten by France and Spain in the cochinchina war and gave up cochinchina to France.



Minjitta said:


> You are born in Vietnam, and Your parents did not become Vietnam citizen and got kick out of Vietnam in 1979. Did you ever said thanks to Vietnam your birth place? Vietnam still is your place of birth where ever you live, it must a hurt you that your bird place is Vietnam.
> 
> Now you tried to connect your self with Twain and China in general. Did you ever attempt to move to China and claim that you are Chinese with the local Chinese. Why don't try that and come back to this forum and tell us your true story, instead posting all your bs .



Oh dear, the brain dead idiot thinks I am one of them. You may be confusing me with jhungary, whose mother was expelled from Vietnam for being ethnic Chinese. I have no connections with Vietnam. I know Chinese people from Vietnam, in my opinion they love Vietnam too much and have some kind of stockholm syndrome and want to connect China with Vietnam.



Minjitta said:


> If you said are true, which I think it a mystical then why 90% of Vietnamese still have our last name?



Vietnam got last names from China. The Vietnamese last names like "nguyen" are pronounciations of Chinese character last names, in Mandarin "Nguyen" is "Ruan", "tran" is "Chen".

The ancestors of the Tran dynasty were Chinese from Fujian. Their last name in Hokkien dialect was Tan (in mandarin Chen). They then moved to Vietnam and used the same character but pronounced it by the Vietnamese pronounciation, Tran.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Yes, 400 million Chinese don't speak madarine, they don't know what is this.
> 
> Beijing says 400 million Chinese cannot speak Mandarin



Less than 100 million Chinese who cannot speak Mandarin, cheap BBC propaganda.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Less than 100 million Chinese who cannot speak Mandarin, cheap BBC propaganda.



*China's Education Ministry says *that about 400 million people - or 30% of the population - cannot speak the country's national language.

Of the 70% of the population who can speak Mandarin, many do not do it well enough, a ministry spokeswoman told Xinhua news agency on Thursday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-23975037


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> *China's Education Ministry says *that about 400 million people - or 30% of the population - cannot speak the country's national language.
> 
> Of the 70% of the population who can speak Mandarin, many do not do it well enough, a ministry spokeswoman told Xinhua news agency on Thursday.
> 
> BBC News - Beijing says 400 million Chinese cannot speak Mandarin



About 400 million people who cannot speak Mandarin fluently.

Guangdong has 100 million population, most Cantonese can understand and speak Mandarin, just not fluently.

In Shanghai, the young generation can speak Mandarin without any accent, and i am one of them.


----------



## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> About 400 million people who cannot speak Mandarin fluently.
> 
> Guangdong has 100 million population, most Cantonese can understand and speak Mandarin, just not fluently.
> 
> In Shanghai, the young generation can speak Mandarin without any accent, and i am one of them.




I have been to Shanghai, there is most developed City in China. It's special case.

but Shanghai_ren have their own language group which is mostly unintelligible to other Chinese. Shanghai people use this as a way of identifying each other but also to exclude other Chinese in the conversation. They hatred Peking_ren who speak "Guan Hua" the "language of rulers".

WuYue can be independence state.


----------



## Snomannen

Minjitta said:


> Why can't Mighty China protect the two little cities?



Why can't mighty Turkey take back all its land conquered by mighty Ottoman, 
why can't mighty Spain take back little lovely Gibraltar,
why can't mighty Argentina protected its beautiful islands,
why can't mighty India protected its whole mighty land from western foreigners,
why can't mighty Germany take back East Prussia,
why can't mighty glorious Vietnam protected its whole beautiful land from outsiders for more than 1000 years,
why can't people like you stop being stupid.


----------



## Snomannen

Viet said:


> how´s about this dish for rich Chinese: edible bird nests? once reserved for emperors and their courts in Vietnam and China. Sell for $1,500 per kilogram wholesale and about $2,500 per kilogram retail...



Tastes like liangfen to me.


----------



## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> I have been to Shanghai, there is most developed City in China. It's special case.
> 
> but Shanghai_ren have their own language group which is mostly unintelligible to other Chinese. Shanghai people use this as a way of identifying each other but also to exclude other Chinese in the conversation. They hatred Peking_ren who speak "Guan Hua" the "language of rulers".
> 
> WuYue can be independence state.



Just because there are cultural conflicts doesn't mean you want to separate with each others and build a new nation.
Tell you what, why don't you find a lil' island from the SCS for yourself therefore you can be independence from the rest of the normal mankind, since you love independence and islands so much.



EastSea said:


> Yes, 400 million Chinese don't speak Mandarin, they don't know what is this.
> 
> Beijing says 400 million Chinese cannot speak Mandarin



Even though if you can't speak Mandarin, people can still read it. The writing systems are mostly same you silly.


----------



## Sun Piwa

Soryu said:


> You said like a traitor dogs, that why Republic of Vietnam was defeated by Nothern and Southern Vietnam liberation forces.
> You can stay whole life at oversea and enjoy your freedom and wealth.
> And we will living, building, and protec our homeland.



Your propaganda doesn't affect me much. I've seen movies made by the nv and it's very uncompetent

People making so lame things can be only bad. The corrupted NV are very well known for their cupidity & their uncompetence

Even a corrupted country can build things, but it would be much better without you the corrupted leaders.

Don't forget you won because of the cold war, so Russia & China was behind you. And as they were closer no wonder much why you won

You are very arrogant people and we will see if the old army that you rule can now face China

You rule the country and instead of unificating and reconciliate the people, you make discrimination. And now the country is deeply divided between north & south, so the country is weakened


----------



## jaibi

Viet said:


> the battle over Vietnam sky told by Americans:



I wish I could view the video it's banned here sadly. 

However, I would like to share an experience with you: my nana (maternal grandfather) was a WWII RAF veteran who came to PAF after independence, he used to say that the Vietnamese Air Force and tactics should be adopted and studied by the Eastern post-colonial nations rather than following the West. He went on a foregin trip in late 1969 I think or maybe '70 to Malaysia where he met a Vietnamese retired pilot who had been considering to work on a history of the Vietnamese air force. My grandfather was extremely impressed by the tactics and ferocity of the Vietnamese fighters and how well the air force was organised. 

Apparently during this time there was a tussle amongst the Pakistan Army and the PAF about allocation of sufficient funds for air defence; the army wanted ground-to-air defence under its control and the PAF argued that primarily the PAF should handle the air defence as air raids mostly focus on air bases. My nana was surprised to know that the VAF had no such problem and the Vietnamese armed forces went perspective to perspective rather than ground/air/water division. He told me that the VAF retired pilot was surprised to hear about the PAF and PA argument and his solution was simple: the air space control and execution whether by air or land is the air force's job the army should have mobile anti-air units. My nana said that he was then convinced that the East would rise and we should develop our own perspectives rather than adopt western ones and he was not an easy guy to impress!

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## EastSea

KirovAirship said:


> Just because there are cultural conflicts doesn't mean you want to separate with each others and build a new nation.
> Tell you what, why don't you find a lil' island from the SCS for yourself therefore you can be independence from the rest of the normal mankind, since you love independence and islands so much.
> 
> 
> 
> Even though if you can't speak Mandarin, people can still read it. The writing systems are mostly same you silly.



I ignored your many time because you're brainwashed boy by Hans, just repeated what they pushed in your head. Both of you WuYue and NanYue were conquered by Hans and you can not regain your independence from ruling of them.


Northern Chinese Versus Southern Chinese:



> People from northern and southern China are physically and genetically different from one another. Head shape, body size and susceptibility to disease vary greatly between the north and south.
> 
> People from Beijing and northern China are often heavier and taller and have broader shoulders, lighter skin, smaller eyes and more pointed noses than Southerners. They favor noodles over rice, have the blood of horsemen from Manchuria and Mongolia, and are regarded as "imperious, quarrelsome, rather aloof, political, proud, and less ostentatious and flashy with their money than Southerners.&#8221;
> 
> People from Shanghai, Canton and southern China are generally smaller, thinner, browner, and have rounder eyes and more rounded noses than Northerners. They favor rice over noodles, look more like Vietnamese, Filipinos and Southeast Asians and are regarded as "talkative, friendly, complacent, sloppy, commercial-minded and materialistic."
> 
> The dividing line between Northerners and Southerners is the Yangtze River. In the 19th century one man from northern China wrote: "The Cantonese...are a course set of people...Before the times of Han and Tang, this country was quite wild and wasted, and these people have sprung forth unconnected, unsettled vagabonds that wandered here from the north."



BEIJING VERSUS SHANGHAI AND REGIONAL DIFFERENCES IN CHINA - China | Facts and Details

With huge population and territory, you both WuYue and NanYue can be two big nations, member of UN.


----------



## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> I ignored your many time because you're brainwashed boy by Hans, just repeated what they pushed in your head. Both of you WuYue and NanYue were conquered by Hans and you can not regain your independence from ruling of them.
> 
> 
> Northern Chinese Versus Southern Chinese:
> 
> 
> 
> BEIJING VERSUS SHANGHAI AND REGIONAL DIFFERENCES IN CHINA - China | Facts and Details
> 
> With huge population and territory, you both WuYue and NanYue can be two big nations, member of UN.


You ignored me because you have nothing but bs, just like this one you just did. 
You are just a shameless ignorant dude trying to incite and spread hatred between Chinese people. People of WuYue and NanYue are Hans, I told you many times that the term of ancient Han people doesn't share the same meaning with Modern Hans. Today we are one and we share the same ancestors, we are one, we are now the same people of a country, that is the only thing matters. And yes we had wars, uncountable wars, but who bloody freaking cares. 
Natives of Hawaii enjoy killing each others before they are united as one,
Japanese murdered their own people in their tiny island before they are united,
not to mention British, German, French, Russian, Turkish, and you Vietnamese. 
Every ethnics was formed with blood, they all have their own bloody history. If everyone really care shxt like you do, there will be millions of new nations in the UN. Besides, since you like to independence here independence there, why don't you free your poor "slaves" from the South first.

Anyway, as I have mentioned this is what truly in your mind - trying to incite and spread hatred between Chinese people. Your country is so small compare with the others therefore you want the others to become as small as you are. That's your true stupid purpose. That's why you always support those so-called stupid "independence warriors" from the internet without doubting and judging.

Moreover, there are 130000000 of Chinese in the world, this is really NORMAL that there are various races and cultures within this big party. Clean up your dirty racism mind would you, that is so nazi and ignorant.

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## Sun Piwa

jaibi said:


> I wish I could view the video it's banned here sadly.
> 
> However, I would like to share an experience with you: my nana (maternal grandfather) was a WWII RAF veteran who came to PAF after independence, he used to say that the Vietnamese Air Force and tactics should be adopted and studied by the Eastern post-colonial nations rather than following the West. He went on a foregin trip in late 1969 I think or maybe '70 to Malaysia where he met a Vietnamese retired pilot who had been considering to work on a history of the Vietnamese air force. My grandfather was extremely impressed by the tactics and ferocity of the Vietnamese fighters and how well the air force was organised.
> 
> Apparently during this time there was a tussle amongst the Pakistan Army and the PAF about allocation of sufficient funds for air defence; the army wanted ground-to-air defence under its control and the PAF argued that primarily the PAF should handle the air defence as air raids mostly focus on air bases. My nana was surprised to know that the VAF had no such problem and the Vietnamese armed forces went perspective to perspective rather than ground/air/water division. He told me that the VAF retired pilot was surprised to hear about the PAF and PA argument and his solution was simple: the air space control and execution whether by air or land is the air force's job the army should have mobile anti-air units. My nana said that he was then convinced that the East would rise and we should develop our own perspectives rather than adopt western ones and he was not an easy guy to impress!



Blablabla All i see are the statistics which shows that NV were humiliated by the americans

I wonder if you're not a nv troll


----------



## jaibi

Sun Piwa said:


> Blablabla All i see are the statistics which shows that NV were humiliated by the americans
> 
> I wonder if you're not a nv troll



I'm sorry, sir, I don't speak idiocracy.

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## EastSea

Sun Piwa said:


> Your propaganda doesn't affect me much. I've seen movies made by the nv and it's very uncompetent
> 
> People making so lame things can be only bad. The corrupted NV are very well known for their cupidity & their uncompetence
> 
> Even a corrupted country can build things, but it would be much better without you the corrupted leaders.
> 
> Don't forget you won because of the cold war, so Russia & China was behind you. And as they were closer no wonder much why you won
> 
> You are very arrogant people and we will see if the old army that you rule can now face China
> 
> You rule the country and instead of unificating and reconciliate the people, you make discrimination. And now the country is deeply divided between north & south, so the country is weakened



You are hunting dog of France colonials.



jaibi said:


> I'm sorry, sir, I don't speak idiocracy.



Ignore him, he is servant of France colonials in Vietnam war 1945-1954, Vietnam against France Imperialists.

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## Sun Piwa

EastSea said:


> You are hunting dog of France colonials.



Says a north vietnamese who is equipped with israeli guns. I think when a country is parasited by the JEWS, it means that the leader are not very good, because with the JEWS we can be only slaves

I'am not surprised at all that Vietnam led by the north vietnamese open their doors to the JEWS, it's a sign of uncompetence for me.

Vietnam ruled by corruption can only be go straight down


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## EastSea

Sun Piwa said:


> Says a north vietnamese who is equipped with israeli guns. I think when a country is parasited by the JEWS, it means that the leader are not very good, because with the JEWS we can be only slaves
> 
> I'am not surprised at all that Vietnam led by the north vietnamese open their doors to the JEWS, it's a sign of uncompetence for me.
> 
> Vietnam ruled by corruption can only be go straight down



You just troll idiot thing. You are living in France, do you know who is Mr.Nicolas Sarkozy come from ? He is Jew with bloodline from Hungary. Jew ruled you but you don't know about it.


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## Sun Piwa

EastSea said:


> You just troll idiot thing. You are living in France, do you know who is Mr.Nicolas Sarkozy come from ? He is Jew with bloodline from Hungary. Jew ruled you but you don't know about it.



JEWS rule Europa & USA since centuries way before i'am born & the south vietnamese are not ruling France, so what can i do?

Not like Vietnam ruled by the north vietnamese who let them enter


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## EastSea

Sun Piwa said:


> JEWS rule Europa & USA since centuries way before i'am born & the south vietnamese are not ruling France, so what can i do?
> 
> Not like Vietnam ruled by the north vietnamese who let them enter



Try to read as following: The primer Minister of Vietnam is Mr. Nguyen Tan Dzung.

Nguy&#7877;n T&#7845;n D&#361;ng (sinh ngày 17 tháng 11 n&#259;m 1949 *t&#7841;i Cà Mau)* là Th&#7911; t&#432;&#7899;ng &#273;&#432;&#417;ng nhi&#7879;m c&#7911;a Vi&#7879;t Nam. T&#7915; n&#259;m 1997, ông c&#361;ng là &#273;&#7841;i bi&#7875;u Qu&#7889;c h&#7897;i Vi&#7879;t Nam các khóa X, XI, XII, XIII .

Nguy&#7877;n T&#7845;n D&#361;ng có quê quán t&#7841;i Thành ph&#7889; Cà Mau, thu&#7897;c t&#7881;nh Cà Mau. Cha ông là Nguy&#7877;n T&#7845;n Th&#7917; chính tr&#7883; viên phó T&#7881;nh &#273;&#7897;i R&#7841;ch Giá, ch&#7871;t ngày 16-4-1969, khi m&#7897;t trái bom M&#7929; &#273;ã ném trúng h&#7847;m trú &#7849;n c&#7911;a T&#7881;nh &#273;&#7897;i R&#7841;ch Giá[3]. Là con th&#7913; hai trong gia &#273;ình, Nguy&#7877;n T&#7845;n D&#361;ng còn &#273;&#432;&#7907;c g&#7885;i v&#7899;i cái tên Ba D&#361;ng. N&#259;m 1961, ông tham gia Quân &#273;&#7897;i Nhân dân Vi&#7879;t Nam,

Do you know where is Provice Ca Mau in Vietnam.


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## Sun Piwa

EastSea said:


> Try to read as following: The primer Minister of Vietnam is Mr. Nguyen Tan Dzung.
> 
> Nguy&#7877;n T&#7845;n D&#361;ng (sinh ngày 17 tháng 11 n&#259;m 1949 *t&#7841;i Cà Mau)* là Th&#7911; t&#432;&#7899;ng &#273;&#432;&#417;ng nhi&#7879;m c&#7911;a Vi&#7879;t Nam. T&#7915; n&#259;m 1997, ông c&#361;ng là &#273;&#7841;i bi&#7875;u Qu&#7889;c h&#7897;i Vi&#7879;t Nam các khóa X, XI, XII, XIII .
> 
> Nguy&#7877;n T&#7845;n D&#361;ng có quê quán t&#7841;i Thành ph&#7889; Cà Mau, thu&#7897;c t&#7881;nh Cà Mau. Cha ông là Nguy&#7877;n T&#7845;n Th&#7917; chính tr&#7883; viên phó T&#7881;nh &#273;&#7897;i R&#7841;ch Giá, ch&#7871;t ngày 16-4-1969, khi m&#7897;t trái bom M&#7929; &#273;ã ném trúng h&#7847;m trú &#7849;n c&#7911;a T&#7881;nh &#273;&#7897;i R&#7841;ch Giá[3]. Là con th&#7913; hai trong gia &#273;ình, Nguy&#7877;n T&#7845;n D&#361;ng còn &#273;&#432;&#7907;c g&#7885;i v&#7899;i cái tên Ba D&#361;ng. N&#259;m 1961, ông tham gia Quân &#273;&#7897;i Nhân dân Vi&#7879;t Nam,
> 
> Do you know where is Provice Ca Mau in Vietnam.



As i explained, the fact that the president is south vietnamese doesn't mean much things.

He can be an exception used for the propaganda of a country. It's the ruling cast that is important.

For example some people say that the war in Libya, Syria is made by an african muslim, just because Obama is the president of the USA.

But the reality that everybody knows is that it's the neo conservators, who are mostly JEWS and caucasians (dogs of the JEWS) who really rule the USA


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## EastSea

Sun Piwa said:


> As i explained, the fact that the president is south vietnamese doesn't mean much things.
> 
> He can be an exception used for the propaganda of a country. It's the ruling cast that is important.
> 
> For example some people say that the war in Libya, Syria is made by an african muslim, just because Obama is the president of the USA.
> 
> But the reality that everybody knows is that it's the neo conservators, who are mostly JEWS and caucasians (dogs of the JEWS) who really rule the USA



You have mistake, Obama is jew from martial, his mother was jew, not muslim. That why Obama's skin is black but he can take a highest power position in US.


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## Sun Piwa

EastSea said:


> You have mistake, Obama is jew from martial, his mother was jew, not muslim. That why Obama's skin is black but he can take a highest power position in US.



But for some people, fortunately not so much, he's a muslim, because of his name Barack Obama Hussein


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## EastSea

Sun Piwa said:


> But for some people, fortunately not so much, he's a muslim, because of his name Barack Obama Hussein



You are living in France, but you are low educated then you don't know nothing. For jew people is existed the prinzip that: If your mother is jew, you are jew. if your father is jew, you shoud be not jew ! Do you know why ?

So that the name: Nikolas Szarkozy or Barack Obama Hussein don't say nothing in this matter related to jew.

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## Sun Piwa

EastSea said:


> You are living in France, but you are low educated then you don't know nothing. For jew people is existed the prinzip that: If your mother is jew, you are jew. if your father is jew, you shoud be not jew ! Do you know why ?
> 
> So that the name: Nikolas Szarkozy or Barack Obama Hussein don't say nothing in this matter related to jew.



I didn't know that the vietnamese know about the juice. 

I said for the majority of the people he's an african muslim but of course i knew it

And what you actually doing in France, USA, Nha Trang? Aren't you a corrupted rich north vietnamese?


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## EastSea

Sun Piwa said:


> I didn't know that the vietnamese know about the juice.
> 
> I said for the majority of the people he's an african muslim but of course i knew it
> 
> And what you actually doing in France, USA, Nha Trang? Aren't you a corrupted rich north vietnamese?



Hey, you are no south Vietnamese, when you don't know that Nha Trang is big city in South Vietnam, my hometown. Look at my ID kid.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> I have been to Shanghai, there is most developed City in China. It's special case.
> 
> but Shanghai_ren have their own language group which is mostly unintelligible to other Chinese. Shanghai people use this as a way of identifying each other but also to exclude other Chinese in the conversation. They hatred Peking_ren who speak "Guan Hua" the "language of rulers".
> 
> WuYue can be independence state.



Tell me, are the Shanghai_ren any different from the Beijing_ren?

I saw that we are tremendously different from the Vietnamese, that's why we belong to a different country.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Tell me, are the Shanghai_ren any different from the Beijing_ren?
> 
> I saw that we are tremendously different from the Vietnamese, that's why we belong to a different country.




People from northern and southern China are physically and genetically different from one another. Head shape, body size and susceptibility to disease vary greatly between the north and south.

People from Beijing and northern China are often heavier and taller and have broader shoulders, lighter skin, smaller eyes and more pointed noses than Southerners. They favor noodles over rice, have the blood of horsemen from Manchuria and Mongolia, and are regarded as "imperious, quarrelsome, rather aloof, political, proud, and less ostentatious and flashy with their money than Southerners.&#8221; 

People from Shanghai, Canton and southern China are generally smaller, thinner, browner, and have rounder eyes and more rounded noses than Northerners. They favor rice over noodles, ... are regarded as "talkative, friendly, complacent, sloppy, commercial-minded and materialistic."

The dividing line between Northerners and Southerners is the Yangtze River.

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## Snomannen

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Tell me, are the Shanghai_ren any different from the Beijing_ren?
> 
> I saw that we are tremendously different from the Vietnamese, that's why we belong to a different country.



Who cares about the difference between each others, diversification is a gift to anyone and it is a factor of founding a great, multi-ethnic society with cultural diversity. Only uneducated racist love inbreeding.

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## StarCraft_ZT

EastSea said:


> People from northern and southern China are physically and genetically different from one another. Head shape, body size and susceptibility to disease vary greatly between the north and south.
> 
> People from Beijing and northern China are often heavier and taller and have broader shoulders, lighter skin, smaller eyes and more pointed noses than Southerners. They favor noodles over rice, have the blood of horsemen from Manchuria and Mongolia, and are regarded as "imperious, quarrelsome, rather aloof, political, proud, and less ostentatious and flashy with their money than Southerners.&#8221;
> 
> People from Shanghai, Canton and southern China are generally smaller, thinner, browner, and have rounder eyes and more rounded noses than Northerners. They favor rice over noodles, ... are regarded as "talkative, friendly, complacent, sloppy, commercial-minded and materialistic."
> 
> The dividing line between Northerners and Southerners is the Yangtze River.



google liu xiang, yao ming.

Simply judging by look, including facial appearance, height and skin, you can't distinguish north Chinese from south Chinese. Trust me, old sport, this is a bad idea. I've been to almost everywhere in China, so I made such comment. The only difference is eating habit and accent.

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## ChineseTiger1986

StarCraft_ZT said:


> google liu xiang, yao ming.
> 
> Simply judging by look, including facial appearance, height and skin, you can't distinguish north Chinese from south Chinese. Trust me, old sport, this is a bad idea. I've been to almost everywhere in China, so I made such comment. The only difference is eating habit and accent.



North Chinese does not look exotic to South Chinese, while the Viets do look foreign to us.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> People from northern and southern China are physically and genetically different from one another. Head shape, body size and susceptibility to disease vary greatly between the north and south.
> 
> People from Beijing and northern China are often heavier and taller and have broader shoulders, lighter skin, smaller eyes and more pointed noses than Southerners. They favor noodles over rice, have the blood of horsemen from Manchuria and Mongolia, and are regarded as "imperious, quarrelsome, rather aloof, political, proud, and less ostentatious and flashy with their money than Southerners.
> 
> People from Shanghai, Canton and southern China are generally smaller, thinner, browner, and have rounder eyes and more rounded noses than Northerners. They favor rice over noodles, ... are regarded as "talkative, friendly, complacent, sloppy, commercial-minded and materialistic."
> 
> The dividing line between Northerners and Southerners is the Yangtze River.



Copy and paste eh?



Wholegrain said:


> The difference is that southern Han hate Vietnamese while northern Han don't.
> 
> Southern Han are descended from northern Han who moved south and married the native Baiyue women, this is why the southern Han y Chromosome (inherited from the father) is extremely close to northern Han Y chromosome, but the mtdna (inherited from the mother) and autosomal DNA is different.
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf
> 
> Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abstract
> The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion. The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abstract
> Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of northsouth division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Y chromosome haplogroup and subclade among different groups of East Asians.*
> 
> Cantonese still call themselves people of Tang after the Tang dynasty because alot of their ancestors were northerners who fled to Guangdong during the Tang dynasty.
> 
> Many northern Chinese fled to southern China in ancient times
> 
> Their is a saying in Taiwan, "mainland grandfather no mainland grandmother" &#26377;&#21776;&#23665;&#20844;&#28961;&#21776;&#23665;&#23229; because Han men from mainland would marry Aboriginal Taiwanese women.
> 
> During the first Jin dynasty and the Tang dynasty alot of northern Han fled to southern China.
> 
> Portrait of a Community
> 
> Portrait of a Community
> 
> In the Shadow of the Han
> 
> A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google knygos
> 
> Northern Han moved to southern China, married native women and their descendants became southern Hans. Many of these southern Han founded Kingdoms like Nanyue and Southern Han. Both of these Southern Han (Cantonese) Kingdoms were enemies of the Vietnamese and fought against them. Nanyue crushed Au Lac and Southern Han fought to retain control of Vietnam. Most armies from China which fought against Vietnam were made out of southern Han and not northerners.
> 
> However, many Vietnamese are under strange delusions - they think that Cantonese and other Southern Han have no Han blood and are entirely sinicized Baiyue, that they must be long lost brothers and were brainwashed by the evil northern Han. @EastSea @Rechoice
> 
> Southern Han look down on Vietnamese and Cantonese do not want to be associated with them at all. They are angry that Vietnam keeps claiming they are their brothers and claiming Nanyue is Vietnamese. But northern Han don't know any of these things. They don't know what Baiyue is and aren't interested in this stupid stuff which is why they don't hate Vietnamese as much as southern Han.
> 
> We have pureblooded Baiyue descendants who were not mixed. They are the natives of southern China.
> 
> Tanka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Fuzhou Tanka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

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## yue10

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They are our people and one of the best people on the planet....enmity n frndship are valued traits of pashtuns......





> This method of execution was used by the Pathans (also known as ethnic Afghans and Pashtuns). The women of this group, particularly in the Afridi tribe of the Pashtuns (who today primarily reside in present-day Pakistan and Afghanistan), would occasionally execute people this way, as mentioned by the British John Masters who was stationed in British India when he was 18 in 1933.
> 
> 
> if they [Pathans] captured any soldiers other than Muslims, and especially if the soldiers were Sikhs or British, they would usually castrate and behead them. Both these operations were frequently done by the women. Sometimes they would torture prisoners with the death of a thousand cuts, pushing grass and thorns into each wound as it was made.
> 
> Sometimes they would peg the prisoner out and, with a stick, force his jaws so wide open that he could not swallow, and then the women would urinate in his open mouth (taking turns) till he drowned.
> 
> This kind of cruelty was not confined to war, but was as much a part of the Pathans normal lives as were their sturdy independence If a man suspected his wife of the most minor infidelity, he would cut her nose off The Pathans punished an adulterer by forcing a thick and knobbly thorn twig down his penis. They rewarded infringements of lesser laws by tearing a mans tongue out by the roots.
> 
> If that all werent cringe-worthy enough:
> 
> It is still customary among some tribes in Assam (northeastern region in India) to punish an unfaithful woman by tying her to a post with her legs apart over a quick-growing kind of bamboo, and leaving her there until the bamboo grows up into her womb and stomach and she dies.
> 
> Bizarrely, particularly given their stance on women and adultery, there are also a few reports of these death by golden shower executions being preceded by the women first gang raping the condemned man before drowning him in their urine.
> 
> Lest you go away thinking that it was just the Pashtuns who instituted various cruel punishments, during these various skirmishes that Masters was involved, he gives an account of a lot of cruelty on both sides. For instance, in one case a wounded tribesman (both his legs broken) was captured. Contrary to an order given by the commanding officer of this battalion (no prisoners), his soldiers brought him in as a prisoner. The officer was furious and then ordered the prisoner to be pegged out, face up, in front of the quarter-guard. There was no shade and the sun temperature was probably about 130. The further order was that every man who passed should kick the prisoner in the testicles. The prisoner died later that evening and his body was placed in a location where a British soldier had previously been flayed alive by the Pashtuns.


like I said...barbaric


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> Vietnamese people is simply a bastardised ethnic with their Mon-Khmer roots lying in Giao Chi and nothing more, the fertile Red River delta region must have been an agricultural or labour centre of some sort with the Vietnamese being subordinates to the Tai in the region, Au Lac is a Yue Kingdom as is Nanyue with the most rightful claim belonging to the Zhuang


you are a bastard posting endless bullshit and hatred. Disgusting. Did you just escape the labor camp in N. Korea or are you still in it?

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## Viet

Sun Piwa said:


> JEWS rule Europa & USA since centuries way before i'am born & the south vietnamese are not ruling France, so what can i do?
> 
> Not like Vietnam ruled by the north vietnamese who let them enter


prove that you came from Vietnam! Don´t try to google!

Tell me the differences of the people in Vietnam: North, Central and South. Or what do common Southerner think of Northerner and vice versa. What do they think about their brothers and sisters in Central part of Vietnam? What I want to know is stereotype.

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## yue10

Viet said:


> you are a bastard posting endless bullshit and hatred. Disgusting. Did you just escape the labor camp in N. Korea or are you still in it?


yes, I was born out of wedlock so what you say is not untrue, what is untrue is your accusation of my endless BS, was it not your countryman who posted this?


> X&#432;a hoàng &#272;&#7871; d&#7921;ng muôn n&#432;&#417;c, th&#7845;y Giao Ch&#7881; xa xôi &#7903; ngoaid cõi Bách Viêt..."
> translated in to English:
> "Long time ago, when God created many coutnries in the world, looked at Vietnam-Jiaozhi is out of Bai Yue..."
> It mean: Vietnam (Kinh People) is not belong to Bai Yue.



*&#8220;Biography of the H&#7891;ng Bàng Clan&#8221;in this essay demonstrates that the Hùng kings did not exist. Instead, they were invented in the medieval era*as part of a process in which the Sinicized elite in the Red River Delta first created and then articulated a distinct identity in terms of China&#8217;s cultural heritage. *This is not to say that there were no polities in the Red River Delta in the first millennium BCE. The bronze drums and other artifacts that twentieth-century archeologists have unearthed demonstrate that there likely were. However, there is no evidence to suggest that medieval Vietnamese scholars knew of the bronze drums or the people who had used them. That is a twentieth-century invented tradition.* What the medieval Sinicized elite did know about, however, was ancient texts, and they relied on old texts for material and inspiration to create a history as well as a local identity for themselves.

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## Rechoice

Wholegrain said:


> Copy and paste eh?



You are Cantonese, Fujian or hokkien, this people is not looked like Han Chinese in Northern China.

Hiere is typical Hokkien man.







(Tan Choon Hoe)

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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> You are hokkien, hokkien people is not looked like Han Chinese in Northen China.
> 
> Hiere is typical hookein man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Tan Choon Hoe)



A prefect word for you -stereotype, which always comes with ignorance, racism and uneducated. 

Here is an stupid image, an example shows stupid people being stereotyped:

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## Rechoice

Tan Choon Hoe, who is of one the country&#8217;s foremost experts on his mother tongue, Hokkien, has come up with a new book on how to speak the dialect.







Archives | The Star Online.

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## Sun Piwa

EastSea said:


> Hey, you are no south Vietnamese, when you don't know that Nha Trang is big city in South Vietnam, my hometown. Look at my ID kid.



You are very good at saying that i don't know things, how you can say it? Did i told you that?
My answer said the contrary for your information.



Viet said:


> prove that you came from Vietnam! Don´t try to google!
> 
> Tell me the differences of the people in Vietnam: North, Central and South. Or what do common Southerner think of Northerner and vice versa. What do they think about their brothers and sisters in Central part of Vietnam? What I want to know is stereotype.



Are you crazy all here or something? Didn't what i said prove that i'am vietnamese?


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> Vietnamese people is simply a bastardised ethnic with their Mon-Khmer roots lying in Giao Chi and nothing more, the fertile Red River delta region must have been an agricultural or labour centre of some sort with the Vietnamese being subordinates to the Tai in the region, Au Lac is a Yue Kingdom as is Nanyue with the most rightful claim belonging to the Zhuang



You lie. Nanyue kingdom was not included Zhuang people in ancient time, today Zhoang people they are still living in GuangXi.

Don't forgotten that our land's north point reached to DongDing Lake in China and JiaoZhi people (Kinh) was not considered themselves as Baiyue.








Sun Piwa said:


> You are very good at saying that i don't know things, how you can say it? Did i told you that?
> My answer said the contrary for your information.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you crazy all here or something? Didn't what i said prove that i'am vietnamese?



You don't know where is NhaTrang in Vietnam, you are false flag, you troll and troll idiot things here.


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## Viet

some pics of Danang (central Vietnam). I visited the city last Christmas. The whole city seems to be under construction. Lots of projects are being carried out. I like it as in contrast to other cities in central region, Danang is very well developed.

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## Snomannen

Viet said:


>



What a cute lil' bowl, I would like to go fishing with this cutie.

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## yue10

EastSea said:


> You lie. Nanyue kingdom was not included Zhuang people in ancient time, today Zhoang people they are still living in GuangXi.
> Don't forgotten that our land's north point reached to DongDing Lake in China and JiaoZhi people (Kinh) was not considered themselves as Baiyue.


Vietnamese should stop believing in lies because your history from Lac Long Quan myth to Trung sisters does not belong to you, you only think this is your history because of historical glory hunting, Vietnamese territory in the ancient times included only Giao Chi and nothing else, this is why the Tai people's name for Vietnamese is Giao people, the Zhuang inhabitated the Lingnan region of Southern China which includes Guangdong, Nanyue was their kingdom not yours because you are their sub ordinate at the time, no one says black slave people were pioneers or founders of the US so how can Vietnamese claim Nanyue, you are the one who told me Kinh is not belong to Baiyue



> While Chinese scholarship continues to place the "Zhuang&#8211;Dong languages" among the Sino-Tibetan family, other linguists treat the Tai languages as a separate family. Another family with which they have been linked is the Austronesian languages, which dispersed from Taiwan after a migration from the mainland. However the Austro-Thai hypothesis uniting these families is now supported by few scholars.[5] However genetic evidence also points out Zhuang possesses a very high frequency of Haplogroup O2 with most of them being subclade O2a making it the most dominant marker, a marker which they share with Austro-Asiatic, the other portion of O2 belongs to subclade O2a1. Zhuangs also have prevalent frequencies of O1 which links them with Austronesian, but O1 is at much lower rate compared to O2a and only slightly higher than O2a1. Haplogroup O2 in Taiwan aborigines is almost completely non-existent, but they exhibit very high frequencies of O1. *This suggests that after the separation of Tai and Austronesian, Tai-Kadai speakers assimilated mostly Austro-Asiatic people into their population.[*6]





> At the fall of the Qin Dynasty a decade later, Zhao Tuo, using his position as the commander of the Nanhai Commandery, formed a state centered on Panyu called Southern Yue (Nanyue). Alternatively submissive to and independent of Han control, this Kingdom expanded colonization and Sinification under its policy of "Harmonizing and Gathering the Hundred Yue" (&#21644;&#38598;&#30334;&#36234 but was *supported by the Zhuang*[citation needed] until its collapse in 111 BC.


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> Vietnamese should stop believing in lies because your history from *Lac Long Quan *myth to Trung sisters does not belong to you, you only think this is your history because of historical glory hunting, Vietnamese territory in the ancient times included only Giao Chi and nothing else, this is why the Tai people's name for Vietnamese is Giao people, the Zhuang inhabitated the Lingnan region of Southern China which includes Guangdong, Nanyue was their kingdom not yours because you are their sub ordinate at the time, no one says black slave people were pioneers or founders of the US so how can Vietnamese claim Nanyue, you are the one who told me Kinh is not belong to Baiyue


whatever you think is irrelevant. I know you like to make up histories without quoting official sources.
I myself can make up history too by saying China is a fake country founded by an Indian.

Show me Chinese official books about Trung Sisters, etc...

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## Viet

Sun Piwa said:


> Are you crazy all here or something? Didn't what i said prove that i'am vietnamese?


no, that just proved you are an idiot.

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## Apothecary

*Question:*
What's the oldest surviving literary text in Vietnam and what does it say?


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## kankan326

Apothecary said:


> *Question:*
> What's the oldest surviving literary text in Vietnam and what does it say?


You asked a real question. So real that Vietnamese guys can not answer.


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## DoTell

Don't have time to read the whole thread. Has anyone asked the "real" Vietnamese how they feel about their country falling to the communist? The country could've been another "tiger" of Asia. But the Soviet Union and proximity to China sealed their fate. Now that the Soviet is no more, and China has changed course. Is Vietnam still hardcore communist at the top? I don't know much about Vietnam, but I know they are no North Korea or Cuba, luckily.


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## EastSea

Apothecary said:


> *Question:*
> What's the oldest surviving literary text in Vietnam and what does it say?



Chinese aggressors invaded in to Vietnam time to time, our texts or all books were written with our ancient characters were burn.

I like the poet of our hero Ly Thuong Kiet, was written with Han Ji:


Original Chinese:

&#21335;&#22283;&#23665;&#27827;&#21335;&#24093;&#23621;
&#25130;&#28982;&#23450;&#20998;&#22312;&#22825;&#26360;
&#22914;&#20309;&#36870;&#34396;&#20358;&#20405;&#29359;
&#27741;&#31561;&#34892;&#30475;&#21462;&#25943;&#34395;


Nam qu&#7889;c s&#417;n hà nam &#273;&#7871; c&#432;
Ti&#7879;t nhiên &#273;&#7883;nh ph&#7853;n t&#7841;i thiên th&#432;
Nh&#432; hà ngh&#7883;ch l&#7895; lai xâm ph&#7841;m
Nh&#7919; &#273;&#7859;ng hành khan th&#7911; b&#7841;i h&#432;.	


translated in to English:

Over Mountains and Rivers of the South, reigns the Emperor of the South
As it stands written forever in the Book of Heaven
How dare those barbarians invade our land?
Your armies, without pity, will be annihilated.

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## EastSea

DoTell said:


> Don't have time to read the whole thread. Has anyone asked the "real" Vietnamese how they feel about their country falling to the communist? The country could've been another "tiger" of Asia. But the Soviet Union and proximity to China sealed their fate. Now that the Soviet is no more, and China has changed course. Is Vietnam still hardcore communist at the top? I don't know much about Vietnam, but I know they are no North Korea or Cuba, luckily.




It was mistake of history, i think , in both China and Vietnam.

Ho Chi Minh was at first a patriot, nationalist, not communist. So he was criticized by Stalin. He escaped from Moscow and went to China and Thailand before he turned back to Vietnam 1941.

Ho Chi Minh declared independence to Vietnam 2/9/1945 and he has been released Indo-China Communist party and established Democracy Party and Socialist Party in Vietnam hereof. He has been ready to build the country's future policy base on democracy principles. But regretfully, idiot France colonials turned back after 1945 and liked to rule Vietnam again. And first Vietnam war began.

There was reason why we have our bitter resistance wars against France until 1954, USA until 1973 and China 1979 to protect our independence.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Chinese aggressors invaded in to Vietnam time to time, our texts or all books were written with our *ancient* characters were burn.
> 
> I like the poet of our hero Ly Thuong Kiet, was written with Han Ji:



More Vietnamese ultranationalist revisionism- the Vietnamese never had their own indigenous script before they adopted Chinese characters. Funny how all those claims of indigenous Vietnamese scripts are never recognized by anyone other than Vietnamese themselves, LOL. No foreign historians, western, chinese, or martian, believes in these BS claims.



EastSea said:


> It was mistake of history, i think , in both China and Vietnam.
> 
> Ho Chi Minh was at first a patriot, nationalist, not communist. So he was criticized by Stalin. He escaped from Moscow and went to China and Thailand before he turned back to Vietnam 1941.
> 
> Ho Chi Minh declared independence to Vietnam 2/9/1945 and he has been released Indo-China Communist party and established Democracy Party and Socialist Party in Vietnam hereof. He has been ready to build the country's future policy base on democracy principles. But regretfully, idiot France colonials turned back after 1945 and liked to rule Vietnam again. And first Vietnam war began.
> 
> There was reason why we have our bitter resistance wars against France until 1954, USA until 1973 and China 1979 to protect our independence.



More lies, Ho Chi Minh's "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" declared in 1945 was a Communist state, Ho joined the French Communist Party in 1920 and joined the Soviet Union's COMINTERN in Moscow in 1923, and led Communist Viet Minh forces in Vietnam in 1941

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## Rechoice

Wholegrain said:


> More Vietnamese ultranationalist revisionism- the Vietnamese never had their own indigenous script before they adopted Chinese characters. Funny how all those claims of indigenous Vietnamese scripts are never recognized by anyone other than Vietnamese themselves, LOL. No foreign historians, western, chinese, or martian, believes in these BS claims.
> 
> 
> 
> More lies, Ho Chi Minh's "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" declared in 1945 was a Communist state, Ho joined the French Communist Party in 1920 and joined the Soviet Union's COMINTERN in Moscow in 1923, and led Communist Viet Minh forces in Vietnam in 1941




You are idiot, bla and bala.







read more, kid.

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## Wholegrain

Rechoice said:


> You are idiot, bla and bala.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> read more, kid.



This is a freaking hilarious joke. Only Vietnamese websites reported this alleged "writing". They can't show us translations of any inscriptions left and no western historian has even bothered to look at this forgery.

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## NiceGuy

Wholegrain said:


> More lies, Ho Chi Minh's "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" declared in 1945 was a Communist state, Ho joined the French Communist Party in 1920 and joined the Soviet Union's COMINTERN in Moscow in 1923, and led Communist Viet Minh forces in Vietnam in 1941



HCM dismissed Communist party in 1945 


> When the Viet Minh declared Vietnam's independence in September 1945, Truong was by Ho's side in Hanoi. The Indochinese Communist party was dissolved as a political maneuver in November 1945
> Truong Chinh - Definition of Truong Chinh


and 


> Major Thomas, who died in 2005 after a long career as an attorney in Lansing, Michigan, radioed his O.S.S. superiors based in Kunming, in southwestern China, that they neednt worry about Hos political leanings.
> 
> Forget the Communist Bogy, he wrote. *Viet Minh League is not Communist*. Stands for freedom and reforms from French harshness.
> 
> Mr. Logevalls appraisal, in his book, said Major Thomas got it wrong, or at least incomplete.
> 
> If the Viet Minh stood for independence and against French repression, its core leadership that summer also remained staunchly Communist. But Ho in particular among top strategists wore the ideology lightly, so much so that even Soviet officials questioned his Communist credentials. In Mao Zedongs Chinese Communist Party, too, analysts wondered where the Viet Minh, should it win the right to rule a free Vietnam, would take the country.
> http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/28/did-the-u-s-lose-ho-chi-minh-to-communism/?_r=0

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## yue10

EastSea said:


> It was mistake of history, i think , in both China and Vietnam.
> Ho Chi Minh was at first a patriot, nationalist, not communist. So he was criticized by Stalin. He escaped from Moscow and went to China and Thailand before he turned back to Vietnam 1941.
> Ho Chi Minh declared independence to Vietnam 2/9/1945 and he has been released Indo-China Communist party and established Democracy Party and Socialist Party in Vietnam hereof. He has been ready to build the country's future policy base on democracy principles. But regretfully, idiot France colonials turned back after 1945 and liked to rule Vietnam again. And first Vietnam war began.
> There was reason why we have our bitter resistance wars against France until 1954, USA until 1973 and China 1979 to protect our independence.


not complete lies but still lies, Mr Ho Chi Minh was always a nationalist first but I think the Vietnamese should stop making it out as if Mr Ho Chi Minh turned to communism by choice, choice suggest he had free will to choose whatever ideology he saw fit but this was never the case



DoTell said:


> Don't have time to read the whole thread. Has anyone asked the "real" Vietnamese how they feel about their country falling to the communist? The country could've been another "tiger" of Asia. But the Soviet Union and proximity to China sealed their fate. Now that the Soviet is no more, and China has changed course. Is Vietnam still hardcore communist at the top? I don't know much about Vietnam, but I know they are no North Korea or Cuba, luckily.


just another modern day Chinese who likes to spit in the face of their revolutionary ancestors, so sad


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## yue10

how do you post pictures?

http://alif-shinobi.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/basic-tai-dam-phrases.html
look familiar to me

can Vietnamese explain about the Black emperor-Mai Thúc Loan


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## Sun Piwa

The vietnamese wrote like the chinese. The modern vietnamese language was invented by a french

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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> how do you post pictures?
> 
> Tai Languages with Alif Silpachai: Basic Tai Dam Phrases
> look familiar to me
> 
> can Vietnamese explain about the Black emperor-Mai Thúc Loan



His skin should be not white, like our peasants who is daily working under sunshine, but didn't looked like Obama.



> Mai H&#7855;c &#272;&#7871; (ch&#7919; Hán: &#26757;&#40657;&#24093;; ?&#8211;722), tên th&#7853;t là Mai Thúc Loan (&#26757;&#21460;&#40478 ho&#7863;c Mai Huy&#7873;n Thành (&#26757;&#29572;&#25104 là vua n&#432;&#7899;c Vi&#7879;t Nam, anh hùng dân t&#7897;c, ng&#432;&#7901;i lãnh &#273;&#7841;o cu&#7897;c kh&#7903;i ngh&#297;a nông dân ch&#7889;ng s&#7921; chi&#7871;m &#273;óng c&#7911;a nhà &#272;&#432;&#7901;ng &#7903; Vi&#7879;t Nam vào &#273;&#7847;u th&#7871; k&#7881; th&#7913; 8. Ông quê &#7903; Mai Ph&#7909; (L&#7897;c Hà, Hà T&#297;nh)[1] nh&#432;ng sinh ra &#7903; Nam &#272;àn, Ngh&#7879; An, Vi&#7879;t Nam.
> 
> Mai Thúc Loan sinh vào kho&#7843;ng cu&#7889;i th&#7871; k&#7927; 7, t&#7841;i thôn Ng&#7885;c Tr&#7915;ng, Hoan Châu, nay thu&#7897;c huy&#7879;n Nam &#272;àn, Ngh&#7879; An. Theo "Vi&#7879;t &#273;i&#7879;n u linh", B&#7889; Mai Thúc Loan là Mai Hoàn, m&#7865; là Mai An Hòa nguyên g&#7889;c L&#7897;c Hà - Hà T&#297;nh, l&#432;u l&#7841;c sang vùng Nam &#272;àn - Ngh&#7879; An.[2]



Mai H

You can ask Mr. Google: how to post picture on forum.

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## Viet

DoTell said:


> Don't have time to read the whole thread. Has anyone asked the "real" Vietnamese how they feel about their country falling to the communist? The country could've been another "tiger" of Asia. But the *Soviet Union* and proximity to *China *sealed their fate. Now that the Soviet is no more, and China has changed course. Is Vietnam still hardcore communist at the top? I don't know much about Vietnam, but I know they are no North Korea or Cuba, luckily.


Communism sucks. China sucks, too. The Soviets helped Vietnam more than China ever did. Throughout history, China regardless of Imperial or Communist, did more harms to Vietnam more it helped. Surely, Vietnam is one of few countries in the world holding the communist banner, along with China, Cuba and N. Korea. That is due to history. 

But don´t make the mistake by assuming Vietnam is a communist country. First and foremost, Vietnamese are sinicized, embrace confucian and worship ancestries. These 3 are the pillar of the Vietnamese society.

No surprise, the basic laws of Vietnam clearly state the communist party is the dominant power of the country, but determines *the family *builds the core of the society.


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## DoTell

> Communism sucks. China sucks, too.


I feel your pain. Us human's relationship between countries is no different than animals in a jungle. The big eat the small, the strong beat up the weak. China itself was bullied plenty by the "devils" from our east (you know, that country made up of short people), north (namely the northern bears), and west. 



> The Soviets helped Vietnam more than China ever did.



I just lied. We humans sometimes are actually smarter than animals. Instead of fighting my enemy directly, I'll lure and create an enemy for my enemy. It's called enemy's enemy. The Soviets "helped" Vietnam in order to contain China and fend off the U.S. Vietnam was like a little kid caught between the big bullies. The 1979 Sino Vietnam war was the latest collateral damage as a result of the games played between China, The Soviet and the U.S. Deng Xiaoping called The Soviet bluff and attacked Vietnam. The Soviet, as predicted by Deng, never dared to make a move. The result? Although China suffered a big casualty in the battle itself, it won a huge strategic war with The Soviet. Most importantly, the war allowed China to cozy up with America. Soon after the war China and the U.S. established formal relationship which triggered the spectacular economic growth for 30+ years. Vietnam was never in the conversation afterwards. 

Now Vietnam is back on the world stage. You know why? Because India, Japan and uncle Sam want to play with China again  I wouldn't get too close to any of them if I were you. So far, every indication shows the Vietnamese leaders understand that very well. They have always been saying the right things, unlike the other small country in the region.



> But don´t make the mistake by assuming Vietnam is a communist country. First and foremost, Vietnamese are sinicized, embrace confucian and worship ancestries. These 3 are the pillar of the Vietnamese society..



That sounds like what we are as well.

[/QUOTE]No surprise, the basic laws of Vietnam clearly state the communist party is the dominant power of the country, but determines *the family *builds the core of the society.[/QUOTE]

We believe the same thing too. Every spring festival the largest human migration takes place in China because all Chinese want to get back with their families. We are all human beings after all 

Cheers!

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## EastSea

> DoTell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel your pain. Us human's relationship between countries is no different than animals in a jungle. The big eat the small, the strong beat up the weak. China itself was bullied plenty by the "devils" from our east (you know, that country made up of short people), north (namely the northern bears), and west.
> 
> 
> 
> I just lied. We humans sometimes are actually smarter than animals. Instead of fighting my enemy directly, I'll lure and create an enemy for my enemy. It's called enemy's enemy. The Soviets "helped" Vietnam in order to contain China and fend off the U.S. Vietnam was like a little kid caught between the big bullies. The 1979 Sino Vietnam war was the latest collateral damage as a result of the games played between China, The Soviet and the U.S. Deng Xiaoping called The Soviet bluff and attacked Vietnam. The Soviet, as predicted by Deng, never dared to make a move. The result? Although China suffered a big casualty in the battle itself, it won a huge strategic war with The Soviet. Most importantly, the war allowed China to cozy up with America. Soon after the war China and the U.S. established formal relationship which triggered the spectacular economic growth for 30+ years. Vietnam was never in the conversation afterwards.
> 
> Now Vietnam is back on the world stage. You know why? Because India, Japan and uncle Sam want to play with China again  I wouldn't get too close to any of them if I were you. So far, every indication shows the Vietnamese leaders understand that very well. They have always been saying the right things, unlike the other small country in the region.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like what we are as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, at least you admitted the truth. China attacked Soviets 1969 to show of his face then USA let China join to UN. China stopped help to Vietnam from 1968 to shake hands with USA 1972 and China backed Khmer Rouge to attacked Vietnam's borders 1975-1978. At last, China attacked Vietnam 1979 to show her true face, by side with USA in cold war.
> 
> However, Russian is more trusted partner than China.
Click to expand...

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## Viet

Sun Piwa said:


> The vietnamese wrote like the chinese. The modern vietnamese language was invented by a *french*


partly correct. The modern Vietnamese alphabet was firstly invented by Portuguese.




> As early as 1527, *Portuguese Christian missionaries* in Vietnam began using Latin script to transcribe the Vietnamese language for teaching and evangelization purposes. These informal efforts led eventually to the development of the present Vietnamese alphabet, largely by the work of French Jesuit Alexandre de Rhodes, who worked in the country between 1624 and 1644. Building on previous Portuguese&#8211;Vietnamese dictionaries by Gaspar d'Amaral and Duarte da Costa, Rhodes wrote the Dictionarium Annamiticum Lusitanum et Latinum, a Vietnamese&#8211;Portuguese&#8211;Latin dictionary, which was printed in Rome in 1651, using his spelling system.[2]
> 
> Vietnamese alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Viet

Do you want to see how Vietnam looked like 400 years ago? Visit Hoi An, an ancient town in central Vietnam, recognised as World Cultural Heritage Site. No one can overlook Chinese influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoi_An

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## Fsjal

Viet said:


> Communism sucks. China sucks, too. The Soviets helped Vietnam more than China ever did. Throughout history, China regardless of Imperial or Communist, did more harms to Vietnam more it helped. Surely, Vietnam is one of few countries in the world holding the communist banner, along with China, Cuba and N. Korea. That is due to history.
> 
> But don´t make the mistake by assuming Vietnam is a communist country. First and foremost, Vietnamese are sinicized, embrace confucian and worship ancestries. These 3 are the pillar of the Vietnamese society.
> 
> No surprise, the basic laws of Vietnam clearly state the communist party is the dominant power of the country, but determines *the family *builds the core of the society.



Since you said communism sucks, does this mean the same to your government, since Vietnam is controlled by the Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV)?

Also, what do you mean China suck? The government or the people?


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## peaceful

Viet said:


> Do you want to see how Vietnam looked like 400 years ago? Visit Hoi An, an ancient town in central Vietnam, recognised as World Cultural Heritage Site. No one can overlook Chinese influence.
> 
> Hoi An - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



please show me some self respect and stop using our language on any vietnmaese buildings. you guys are also encouraged to stop celebrating our festivals.

to all vietnamese members:

please stop using ANY Chinese products, or you are bashing your countries economy. 
please stop celebrating Chinese festivals, including the spring festival. 
please remove all Chinese signs from your traditional buildings.

it is really offensive to see those Chinese signs on those dirty vietnamese buildings.


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## Viet

Fsjal said:


> Since you said communism sucks, does this mean the same to your government, since Vietnam is controlled by the Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV)?


I said I dislike Communism.

Anyway, luckily VN communists have learnt from their mistakes. And in contrast to China, N Korea and Cuba, Vietnam has adopted some sorts of Democracy: division of power and control of excecutives. So the power is in the country is divided between the State President and Prime Minister. The communist Party chief ranks #1, but does not have executive power. 

Most importantly, the National Parliament has the power to remove all incompetent and corrupt senior leaders from their posts, including the State President and Prime Minister (through confident vote).



Fsjal said:


> Also, what do you mean China suck? The government or the people?


yes, both, Chinese government and her people. They are arrogant and aggressive.

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## Sun Piwa

peaceful said:


> please show me some self respect and stop using our language on any vietnmaese buildings. you guys are also encouraged to stop celebrating our festivals.
> 
> to all vietnamese members:
> 
> please stop using ANY Chinese products, or you are bashing your countries economy.
> please stop celebrating Chinese festivals, including the spring festival.
> please remove all Chinese signs from your traditional buildings.
> 
> it is really offensive to see those Chinese signs on those dirty vietnamese buildings.



Hahahahaha



Viet said:


> I said I dislike Communism.
> 
> Anyway, luckily VN communists have learnt from their mistakes. And in contrast to China, N Korea and Cuba, Vietnam has adopted some sorts of Democracy: division of power and control of excecutives. So the power is in the country is divided between the State President and Prime Minister. The communist Party chief ranks #1, but does not have executive power.
> 
> Most importantly, the National Parliament has the power to remove all incompetent and corrupt senior leaders from their posts, including the State President and Prime Minister (through confident vote).
> 
> 
> yes, both, Chinese government and her people. They are arrogant and aggressive.



I think Vietnam have been filled up with anti-chinese propaganda lately, because when i left Vietnam it was not like this.


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## EastSea

peaceful said:


> please show me some self respect and stop using our language on any vietnmaese buildings. you guys are also encouraged to stop celebrating our festivals.
> 
> to all vietnamese members:
> 
> please stop using ANY Chinese products, or you are bashing your countries economy.
> please stop celebrating Chinese festivals, including the spring festival.
> please remove all Chinese signs from your traditional buildings.
> 
> it is really offensive to see those Chinese signs on those dirty vietnamese buildings.



You have a good idea, such signs made our buildings dirty.

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## Viet

peaceful said:


> please show me some self respect and stop using our language on any vietnmaese buildings. you guys are also encouraged to stop celebrating our festivals.
> 
> *to all vietnamese members:*
> 
> please stop using ANY Chinese products, or you are bashing your countries economy.
> please stop celebrating Chinese festivals, including the spring festival.
> please remove all Chinese signs from your traditional buildings.


to all Chinese members! pls remove and stop using all western products and technologies and return to old ancient China. 


peaceful said:


> it is really offensive to see those Chinese signs on those *dirty vietnamese buildings*.


you are a fool: the old buildings are UNESCO World Cultural Heritage Site. The houses haven´t changed much since 400 years. Tourists want to see how it was in ancient Vietnam. Is there any town in China simaliar as Hoi An?

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## Fsjal

Viet said:


> to all Chinese members! pls remove and stop using all *western products and technologies and return to old ancient China*.
> 
> you are a fool: the old buildings are UNESCO World Cultural Heritage Site. The houses haven´t changed much since 400 years. Tourists want to see how it was in ancient Vietnam. Is there any town in China simaliar as Hoi An?



What do you mean? Use 19th Century tech?


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## Soryu

peaceful said:


> "Please stop using any technology from western, use China own.
> Please stop copy other country's product.
> Please stop try to get investment from western and Japan into China.
> Please stop imported Japanese and western's culture into China"
> And please stop see JAV and jerk off ....
> bla bla bla bla ...... "


......................................................

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## Viet

Fsjal said:


> What do you mean? Use 19th Century tech?


Yes, but pls go back further to 1800, where China was a backward and desperate country, helpless when Western Powers arrived. And since Chinese hate Japan so much, they should begin to expel all Japanese companies out of China. 

Pls tell the Japanese that they are welcome in Vietnam.

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## Viet

Apothecary said:


> *Question:*
> What's the oldest surviving literary text in Vietnam and what does it say?


difficult to answer...if any I guess it tells the story of the creation of Vietnam. It is a mythology that any Vietnamese kid learns at school. L&#7841;c Long Quân and his wife, an immortal mountain fairy named Âu C&#417;, were considered as father and mother of Vietnamese people.






L


*Au Co* Temple Festival (Ha Hoa)

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## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> Yes, but pls go back further to 1800, where China was a backward and desperate country, helpless when Western Powers arrived. And since Chinese hate Japan so much, they should begin to expel all Japanese companies out of China.
> 
> Pls tell the Japanese that they are welcome in Vietnam.



I remember in the 19th century, Vietnam could bully smaller peoples like Champa and genocide them in 1832, but got gang banged by Spain and France in the Cochin China war and it got banged again by France so hard, that Vietnam begged China for help in the Sino-French War.


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## Soryu

Wholegrain said:


> I remember in the 19th century, Vietnam could bully smaller peoples like Champa and genocide them in 1832, but got gang banged by Spain and France in the Cochin China war and it got banged again by France so hard, that Vietnam begged China for help in the Sino-French War.



And you forget this: China got bang so many time by smaller country like Britain, France, Japan ... until Chinese got big party given them by Japanese in 1937 at Nanking.

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## Snomannen

Soryu said:


> And you forget this: China got bang so many time by smaller country like Britain, France, Japan ... until Chinese got big party given them by Japanese in 1937 at Nanking.


You compare lil' Champa to those global Empires like Britian and France? They were not even _small _back to those days. 

Yet unlike the other giant nations like Turkish Ottoman and Indian Mughal, China survived from the western invasion and maintained most of its large territory and independence.

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## Snomannen

KirovAirship said:


> You compare lil' Champa to those global Empires like Britian and France? They were not even _small _back to those days.
> 
> Yet unlike the other giant nations like Turkish Ottoman and Indian Mughal, China survived from the western invasion and maintained most of its large territory and independence.



Besides before the Opium War China gained more benefit from the volume of trade between Qing and Britain, while most of the other countries were either conquered or their business were controlled by westerners.

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## Wholegrain

Vietnam was screwed by France from 1884-1954, lots of Frenchmen had fun with Annamite "Con gai" and sired many bastards, Japan starved over 2 million Vietnamese to death in the famine of 1945, and American soldiers sired another generation of bastards with the local women and their children are known as "Bui Doi" today. Vietnam was slave of China in the time period depicted by that cartoon. 



Soryu said:


> And you forget this: China got bang so many time by smaller country like Britain, France, Japan ... until Chinese got big party given them by Japanese in 1937 at Nanking.

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## NiceGuy

Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam was screwed by France from 1884-1954, lots of Frenchmen had fun with Annamite "Con gai" and sired many bastards, Japan starved over 2 million Vietnamese to death in the famine of 1945, and American soldiers sired another generation of bastards with the local women and their children are known as "Bui Doi" today. Vietnam was slave of China in the time period depicted by that cartoon.


At least , we still survive and stand firmly on our own foot. We dare to challenge all enemies and defeat them all one by one. We r different wt coward China who always bow down to stronger enemy, thats why, we liberated the South for long time already when China still cant take back its TW from US's occupation.

We r getting better and stronger when China's mental problem still the same like before WW2,coward and paranoid, poor u ! sick men of East Asia

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## Wholegrain

NiceGuy said:


> At least , we still survive and stand firmly on our own foot. We dare to challenge all enemies and defeat them all one by one. We r different wt coward China who always bow down to stronger enemy, thats why, we liberated the South for long time already when China still cant take back its TW from US's occupation.
> 
> We r getting better and stronger when China's mental problem still the same like before WW2,coward and paranoid, poor u ! sick men of East Asia



Vietnam was occupied by Chinese Tran and Ho dynasties from 1225-1407 until the Ming dynasty came down to liberate you from their control.

Vietnam got banged by France from 1884-1941, then Japan occupied your country and starved 2 million to death, then the Republic of China occupied north Vietnam and spratly islands, and Britain occupied south Vietnam, and the Viet Minh could not lift a finger against them. China forced France to give up all of their concessions and extraterritorial priveliges in exchange for China withdrawing from North Vietnam. Your country received massive amounts of aid from Communist bloc countries in the war against France and America and your country was also the slave of the Soviet Union for the rest of the Cold War.

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## Soryu

KirovAirship said:


> You compare lil' Champa to those global Empires like Britian and France? They were not even _small _back to those days.
> 
> Yet unlike the other giant nations like Turkish Ottoman and Indian Mughal, China survived from the western invasion and maintained most of its large territory and independence.





KirovAirship said:


> Besides before the Opium War China gained more benefit from the volume of trade between Qing and Britain, while most of the other countries were either conquered or their business were controlled by westerners.


LOL, again, you slap in your buddy face, a idiot troll.

We "get" Champa, and you were invaded by Britain and France. _*The France, Japan and Britian is very small when you compare them with China, but they were very strong to China in that time*_, so China got bang and gang bang like torn bag, OK!
You said China were not controlled by Westerners!?
So What's about HongKong, Macau, and many Treaty China signed!?

China survived and Vietnam survived, too. But your buddy keep barking like a mental dog about "Vietnam issues".



Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam was screwed by France from 1884-1954, lots of Frenchmen had fun with Annamite "Con gai" and sired many bastards, Japan starved over 2 million Vietnamese to death in the famine of 1945, and American soldiers sired another generation of bastards with the local women and their children are known as "Bui Doi" today. Vietnam was slave of China in the time period depicted by that cartoon.



Well, Are you sure about what you said, kid !? 
But the true is Japanese kill many millions China in 1937 to 1945, until Soviet and USA defeat Japan, that thing some Chinese till feeling so proud and threaten to nuke Tokyo, 
And to respond, China killed billions Japanese in Television and movies today, and yet, you feel so proud when you said in here. 
Ah-Q's spirit is the best for you, sickmen of East Asia, I guess.

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## Wholegrain

Soryu said:


> LOL, again, you slap in your buddy face, a idiot troll.
> 
> We "get" Champa, and you were invaded by Britain and France. _*The France, Japan and Britian is very small when you compare them with China, but they were very strong to China in that time*_, so China got bang and gang bang like torn bag, OK!
> You said China were not controlled by Westerners!?
> So What's about HongKong, Macau, and many Treaty China signed!?
> 
> China survived and Vietnam survived, too. But your buddy keep barking like a mental dog about "Vietnam issues".
> 
> 
> 
> Well, Are you sure about what you said, kid !?
> But the true is Japanese kill many millions China in 1937 to 1945, until Soviet and USA defeat Japan, that thing some Chinese till feeling so proud and threaten to nuke Tokyo,
> And to respond, China killed billions Japanese in Television and movies today, and yet, you feel so proud when you said in here.
> Ah-Q's spirit is the best for you, sickmen of East Asia, I guess.



The true sickman of asia -

Agent Orange - Vietnam - YouTube

[226] Adding Insult to Torture, Vietnam Still Suffering from Agent Orange, BTS Best of Season One - YouTube

Vietnam 35 Years Later: Agent Orange - YouTube

"Agent Orange" Vietnam - YouTube

Chemical Warfare in the Vietnam War: Effects of Agent Orange - Noam Chomsky (2011) - YouTube

Vietnam War&#39;s Legacy: Agent Orange Victims - YouTube


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## NiceGuy

Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam was occupied by Chinese Tran and Ho dynasties from 1225-1407 until the Ming dynasty came down to liberate you from their control.
> 
> Vietnam got banged by France from 1884-1941, then Japan occupied your country and starved 2 million to death, .


And its history when from WW1 untill now, China still cant take back TW and dont know when they can take it back coz they r mentally sick and coward 


> then the Republic of China occupied north Vietnam and spratly islands,


We also cant prove that all islands of Spratly belong to us

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## Snomannen

Soryu said:


> LOL, again, you slap in your buddy face, a idiot troll.
> 
> We "get" Champa, and you were invaded by Britain and France. _*The France, Japan and Britian is very small when you compare them with China, but they were very strong to China in that time*_, so China got bang and gang bang like torn bag, OK!
> You said China were not controlled by Westerners!?
> So What's about HongKong, Macau, and many Treaty China signed!?
> 
> China survived and Vietnam survived, too. But your buddy keep barking like a mental dog about "Vietnam issues".



HA! Where did you think the whole Junggar, Mongolia and Tibet have gone~? Small you say, why don't you go check the territory and national power of the UK and France back in those days~? Also I told you already, compare with those nations like Mughal, Ottoman and the others, China can still maintained and took back most of its territory and most of its independence. Oh and yes Japan did humiliated China, but how about those countries like "big buddy" India and lil' Vietnam which were not even existed? Even Thailand can maintain its independence but Vietnam can't~ Survived? Vietnam? You are trying to make me laugh to death aren't you. 

When did I even say that China was not controlled by Westerners, punching scarecrow is pretty fun to you, right? 

You people always try to put Chinese history on the table but forget yours _wonderful _history. The broken lil pot calls the kettle black.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> The true sickman of asia -



Chinese poisoned their country children for money.

The 2008 Chinese milk scandal was a food safety incident in the People's Republic of China, involving milk and infant formula, and other food materials and components, adulterated with melamine.
By November 2008, China reported an estimated 300,000 victims,[1] with six infants dying from kidney stones and other kidney damage, and an estimated 54,000 babies being hospitalised.[2][3] The chemical appeared to have been added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content. In a separate incident four years before, watered-down milk had resulted in 13 infant deaths from malnutrition.[4]

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam was occupied by Chinese Tran and Ho dynasties from 1225-1407 until the Ming dynasty came down to liberate you from their control.
> 
> Vietnam got banged by France from 1884-1941, then Japan occupied your country and starved 2 million to death, then the Republic of China occupied north Vietnam and spratly islands, and Britain occupied south Vietnam, and the Viet Minh could not lift a finger against them. China forced France to give up all of their concessions and extraterritorial priveliges in exchange for China withdrawing from North Vietnam. Your country received massive amounts of aid from Communist bloc countries in the war against France and America and your country was also the slave of the Soviet Union for the rest of the Cold War.



Tran, Ho fought against China, but Mongolian and Manchus, Japanese ruled you. Taiwanese are slaves of Japanese (1895-1945) and USA now.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> HA! Where did you think the whole Junggar, Mongolia and Tibet have gone~? Small you say, why don't you go check the territory and national power of the UK and France back in those days~? Also I told you already, compare with those nations like Mughal, Ottoman and the others, China can still maintained and took back most of its territory and most of its independence. Oh and yes Japan did humiliated China, but how about those countries like "big buddy" India and lil' Vietnam which were not even existed? Even Thailand can maintain its independence but Vietnam can't~ Survived? Vietnam? You are trying to make me laugh to death aren't you.
> 
> When did I even say that China was not controlled by Westerners, punching scarecrow is pretty fun to you, right?
> 
> You people always try to put Chinese history on the table but forget yours _wonderful _history. The broken lil pot calls the kettle black.


You are right. Actually China and Vietnam were humiliated by foreign powers for more a century. Laughing at other because they had similar fate is not nice at all. How about a cease fire here on defence.pk?


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## ChinaToday

why Vietnam only had very tiny amount of fx reserves


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## Viet

Pics of Nha Trang, my hometown, where I grew up. The face of the city has changed a lot in recent years.

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## Viet

ChinaToday said:


> why Vietnam only had very tiny amount of fx reserves


Well, until recently, Vietnam economy suffered more 20 years under huge trade deficit, mostly in trade with China ($16bn alone in 2012), which eliminated most of FX. That is due to the weakness of VN economy which relies huge on import of oil products, machinery and equipments. China economy is probably 15 years ahead of Vietnam and can offer very competitive machines and equipments for manufacturing all sorts of products, at reasonable prices.

I wrote many times on defence.pk, why Vietnam is far behind China in economics.

Last year 2012, Vietnam economy achieved for the first time since 2 decades trade surplus, a historic moment. Vietnam not only achieves surplus in trade, but in current account as well, about 7.40 percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product in 2012. At the beginning of 2013, VN has $30bn FX, the number is expected to increase rapidly over years.

Sure, compare to China´s FX, that´s nothing.

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## sweetouch

Does Vietnam still consider Cambodia and Laos as close allies considering their pro-China stance?


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## Soryu

sweetouch said:


> Does Vietnam still consider Cambodia and Laos as close allies considering their pro-China stance?



Pro-China !? Cambodia and Laos !? No.

Cambodian welcome anyone invest to their country, China give them big money in recent, so they reponsd with sweet words to get PRC's aid. 
Hunsen's party or Sam Rainsy's Party are same intention with China, but Hunsen know Cambodia can't screw with Vietnam.

Laos is Vietnamese's ally, for sure. They also want to get investment to economy, so they welcome China, done.

Vietnam consider any country is friend if they come with friendly attitude.

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## Soryu

KirovAirship said:


> HA! Where did you think the whole Junggar, Mongolia and Tibet have gone~? Small you say, why don't you go check the territory and national power of the UK and France back in those days~? Also I told you already, compare with those nations like Mughal, Ottoman and the others, China can still maintained and took back most of its territory and most of its independence. Oh and yes Japan did humiliated China, but how about those countries like "big buddy" India and lil' Vietnam which were not even existed? Even Thailand can maintain its independence but Vietnam can't~ Survived? Vietnam? You are trying to make me laugh to death aren't you.
> 
> When did I even say that China was not controlled by Westerners, punching scarecrow is pretty fun to you, right?
> 
> You people always try to put Chinese history on the table but forget yours _wonderful _history. The broken lil pot calls the kettle black.



I saw some post of you, and I think you smarter than your buddy, but look like I wrong.

What point for you step in my reply to your buddy (Wholegrain) with his bullshjt !?

*Asian countries was invaded by many Western countries in 19th and 20th Century. It's true, and after times, we stand up and gain independence, what's wrong with that for him barking bullshjt and you come to smell it !?*

*Vietnam invaded Champa, ok. If that's sin, so what's about China do with other countries, land and ethnic !? *

*Wholegrain** said (he want it) Vietnamese was slave of China, but he keep show off his pitiful to Champa people. His hypocrisy and shameless are amazing. Same with you.*

*You Chinese keep said you are good, peaceful, righteousness ... but when you can't prove those thing, your mouth bring up weapon and money ...etc to show off and try to insult others.* LOL

You can laugh and die with your arrogant, nobody care about your death, in here.


If you want to show, I will help you:


_Even Thailand and many small Asia countries wasn't get bang and humiliated like mighty, most wealth China, central of the world, that thing claimed by you guys.

France and Britian or Japan have many colony, but their entity, their real territory is very small when compare with China. They have to control their colony with their power to get benefites.

Thailand and Japan avoided other Asia countries's fate, but the other like Vietnam, Philippine, Indonesia was stand up and regain our freedom by tear and blood.
So what's shame with that !?_

*Only one need to shame is your buddy and anyone try to insult victims of War.*

*They was suffer result and sin of war, but Wholegrain bring up them to cover his shamless face when he can't illuminate and protect his hypocrisy.*

_He show no respect and sympathy to victim of war and colonialism, so how can he has respect and sympathy with Chinese victim of Japanese Imperial Army, but he keep saying about bully and shame. His hypocrisy and shameless are amazing. Same with you._

Now, I can understand how could a Chinese man was hit to near death by his Chinese fellow because he drove a Toyota's car.

Oh, I forget, your pointless crap:



KirovAirship said:


> Yet unlike the other giant nations like Turkish Ottoman and Indian Mughal, *China survived from the western invasion and maintained most of its large territory and independence.*
> *before the Opium War* China gained more benefit from the volume of trade between Qing and Britain, *while most of the other countries were either conquered or their business were controlled by westerners.*



Done with you

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## Snomannen

Soryu said:


> Oh, I forget, your pointless crap:
> 
> Done with you



You really wanna make me laugh to death with your jokes, luckily I have already got use to facing with such situation because of your stupid buddy @EastSea 

[China survived from the western invasion and maintained most of its large territory and independence.]
Find me a mistake here.

[while most of the other countries were either conquered or their business were controlled by westerners.]
1. Since when did the *whole *China become a colony of other country~? 
2. IF you read it carefully I was talking about the volume of trade between Qing and Britain, and this is a fact that the Qing Dynasty was in a dominant position in the business between the two nations before the war, while the economy of Mughal and Ottoman were controlled by the Westerners before they were eliminated or beaten~ 
3. "the other countries were (fully) controlled by the Westerners" = "China was not controlled by Westerners"? What were you even thinking. Who is the one throwing crap here~

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## animelive

beijingwalker said:


> Our PLA girls do fight,they fight in sports and they train really hard and are among the best in the world.some of them got Olympic gold medals.


 i need to visit China asap


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## Soryu

KirovAirship said:


> You really wanna make me laugh to death with your jokes, luckily I have already got use to facing with such situation because of your stupid buddy @EastSea
> 
> [China survived from the western invasion and maintained most of its large territory and independence.]
> Find me a mistake here.
> 
> [while most of the other countries were either conquered or their business were controlled by westerners.]
> 1. Since when did the *whole *China become a colony of other country~?
> 2. IF you read it carefully I was talking about the volume of trade between Qing and Britain, and this is a fact that the Qing Dynasty was in a dominant position in the business between the two nations before the war, while the economy of Mughal and Ottoman were controlled by the Westerners before they were eliminated or beaten~
> 3. "the other countries were (fully) controlled by the Westerners" = "China was not controlled by Westerners"? What were you even thinking. Who is the one throwing crap here~



You are such hopeless:

What's point of you when you step in my reply to your shameless buddy.

You try hard to bla bla bla ... and analysis every sentence and words that can prove some part in your post is right , ignore the other fact when you step in my post. For what!? LOL

Can you answer me!?

Mr. Ah-Q, eventually you can maintain your independence in name, everyone know history, it's hurt, but it's true. 
Your buddy can't accept that fact and failed when he try to bring up victim of war to cover his shameless face.

P/S: I bet you still don't understand why did I call your point is crap, until now. Sure, because you want you are right, and superior. LOL

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## Snomannen

Soryu said:


> I saw some post of you, and I think you smarter than your buddy, but look like I wrong.



Don't be sad, you have made a lot of mistakes in many ways anyway~ 
The only thing matters is I am smarter than you, that is for sure~


> What point for you step in my reply to your buddy (Wholegrain) with his bullshjt !?



Oh I'm so sorry Master owner-of-the-PDF-forum, I didn't know that I can't decide to talk with anyone I please in this forum. 



> *Asian countries was invaded by many Western countries in 19th and 20th Century. It's true, and after times, we stand up and gain independence, what's wrong with that for him barking bullshjt and you come to smell it !?*
> 
> 
> *Vietnam invaded Champa, ok. If that's sin, so what's about China do with other countries, land and ethnic !? *
> 
> *Wholegrain** said (he want it) Vietnamese was slave of China, but he keep show off his pitiful to Champa people. His hypocrisy and shameless are amazing. Same with you.*


Did I say anything about "sin" and "wrong"? 
Funny because I didn't even read most of her posts in this thread but you keep mentioning her name and YOUR argument with her in front of me and consider I must share the same opinion with her. What the heck you are thinking . 



> *You Chinese keep said you are good, peaceful, righteousness ... but when you can't prove those thing, your mouth bring up weapon and money ...etc to show off and try to insult others.* LOL



I never say such thing like Chinese people are good peaceful blah blah blah, or did I~? Find me a post in this forum that I have said such thing otherwise you should really stop punching Mr.Scarecrow~



> You can laugh and die with your arrogant, nobody care about your death, in here.



Who the heck care if YOU say nobody care then~? How childish you are~



> If you want to show, I will help you:
> 
> 
> _Even Thailand and many small Asia countries wasn't get bang and humiliated like mighty, most wealth China, central of the world, that thing claimed by you guys.
> 
> 
> France and Britian or Japan have many colony, but their entity, their real territory is very small when compare with China. They have to control their colony with their power to get benefites.
> 
> 
> Thailand and Japan avoided other Asia countries's fate, but the other like Vietnam, Philippine, Indonesia was stand up and regain our freedom by tear and blood.
> So what's shame with that !?_



Thailand was always a luck/ smart nation to survive from other bullies~ unlike its neighbors such as PH and Vietnam which have been humiliated and"banging to death" by foreigners for uncountable centuries~ They were not even existed back in those days~ 
Oh and by the way, China was one of the few Asian countries which had the power to stand against the invasion from westerners, while most of the other like India Vietnam and PH were swallowed up by them with out using that much bullets~ 

What the hell is this "real territory", Qing Dynasty owned a large scale of territories like Mongolia and Tibet which were not even fully, directly controlled by the central government, does it make them not a "real territory". And you just said that they gained benefit and resources from colonies, which means that they DID gained power from their large "not real territory". Do you even know what you were talking about. 



> *Only one need to shame is your buddy and anyone try to insult victims of War.*
> *They was suffer result and sin of war, but Wholegrain bring up them to cover his shamless face when he can't illuminate and protect his hypocrisy.*
> 
> _He show no respect and sympathy to victim of war and colonialism, so how can he has respect and sympathy with Chinese victim of Japanese Imperial Army, but he keep saying about bully and shame. His hypocrisy and shameless are amazing. Same with you._



Blah blah blah Wholegrain here and Wholegrain there blah blah blah, sorry but am I representing her~? You are really out of your mind  


> Now, I can understand how could a Chinese man was hit to near death by his Chinese fellow because he drove a Toyota's car.



I can only see a picture of how a silly Vietnamese guy telling nonsense and punching a scarecrow


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## Snomannen

Soryu said:


> You are such hopeless:
> 
> What's point of you when you step in my reply to your shameless buddy.
> 
> You try hard to bla bla bla ... and analysis every sentence and words that can prove some part in your post is right , ignore the other fact when you step in my post. For what!? LOL
> 
> Can you answer me!?
> 
> Mr. Ah-Q, eventually you can maintain your independence in name, everyone know history, it's hurt, but it's true.
> Your buddy can't accept that fact and failed when he try to bring up victim of war to cover his shameless face.
> 
> P/S: I bet you still don't understand why did I call your point is crap, until now. Sure, because you want you are right, and superior. LOL



Who do you think you really are, the holy freaking baby lord Jesus? If you don't wanna be replied then why don't you leave this place, this is a forum of free speech. 
I can choose who I want to spend time with and which topic I wanna discuss about and you can't shxt lalala~ 

Answer what~?
I has been telling that the modern Chinese history and its sad ending was not that bad as some people describe by comparing China with other nations such as India and Turkey, also pointing out China's dominant position of trade and business back in those days to show that China was not that pity and poor. Therefore this is pretty ridiculous that people especially from Vietnam and Korea dare to laugh at Chinese history~ (but of course, just like what @Viet has just said, Chinese shouldn't make fun of Vietnamese history [for no good reason] as well~) 

But that doesn't mean that I am trying to "ignore" and avoid to accept any poor, shame history in China and its tragedy, nor covering anything negatives 
Some people in this forum is just too sentimental and doesn't even have any ability of logical thinking~ They are those who really "want themselves are right and superior" and always make slanders.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> You are right. Actually China and Vietnam were humiliated by foreign powers for more a century. Laughing at other because they had similar fate is not nice at all. How about a cease fire here on defence.pk?



I would love to enjoy watching your beautiful pictures instead but some of your buddies here are just too sentimental and aggressive to understand my simple point of "Vietnam has no right to laugh at China's history" and accuse me a lot of "crimes" such as " (I) calling ourselves (Chinese) good and peaceful", "trying to ignore the part of shameful history in China", "disrespect those victims of wars" etc . 
Also some Chinese members here are too noisy.

Ok ok I will try to be cool with that "lady in menopause".

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## Snomannen

Soryu said:


> If you are person like you said, you should talk to your buddy shut his mouth before you say anything, but you agreed with his troll and thank him. So you are same with his .
> 
> 
> My reponsd show the true to your hypocrisy buddy, so if you don't read, don't want to know what's I talking about, just shut your mouth.
> If you don't know what's he post, so why did you thank to him !? Want to smell his sh!t !?
> So follow you, Chinese wasn&#8217;t not get bang by many Western countries like I said !?



Why should I~  I can thank anyone I want and nothing relate to you, you mad idiot~?
There are many reasons people giving 'thanks'~ to appreciate ones information and refs, to agree ones opinion (all or part of), to thank ones good English or even just simply mark down a mark for recording important posts~ 
The most important thing is giving a thank to other member doesn't mean that you have to accept and follow all of his opinion, doesn't mean that you know any of his former posts nor you want to "on behalf of" someone~ simple as that~
Maybe I should just give you a thank to thank you for showing your stupidity to make me happy~ 

Why should I care who you were talking to~ Your nonsense wouldn't become a page from the bible depends on who you are arguing with~ You want me to shut up? Can you~? Ha~


What you said is nonsense, I for sure didn't say anything like what you say~ 




> And find for me when did I speaking about you, Ah-Q kid !???



Oh I am sorry I didn't know that you are just _playing _with yourself even you brought up the words "you Chinese" for no reason at all and always mention and emphasis other member here all the time 



> You think you can screw my emotion with your troll words and make some fun !? LOL, Sorry, I'm not your Mother to get angry and punish your insolent &#8230;
> 
> I remember you said you go to here to troll, and enjoy that, right !? (maybe I can mistake, because I don't care about you).
> But now, you want serious about "Chinese History" !? your words when you discuss is serious !?


Oh~ talking about other people's mother as usual, how sweet~
My mother will be pleased to see me cleaning up some trash like you~ 

Oh did I~? maybe I did~ even if I really did then so what~? I always have fun telling jokes here, especially with Viet, we had some happy times with each other in these forum~  Does that mean that I can't be serious with something I care~ how rude and impolite you are~ 

You are just looking for an excuse to avoid facing with reasons, I should have know that, such a bad boy~




> Last gift for your troll:


Lovely story and pictures~ 
but how does this news related to any topics here 
Stop divert attention from your stupidity would you~ 



> P/S: I don&#8217;t know that your mother in this period and take you so hard, how pitiful for you, Mr.Ah-Q.



Feel sad to a shameful loser who insults other people's mother.
But I will forgive you, since you are like a woman in her menopause with mood disorders~


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## Rechoice

peaceful said:


> please show me some self respect and stop using our language on any vietnmaese buildings. you guys are also encouraged to stop celebrating our festivals.
> 
> to all vietnamese members:
> 
> please stop using ANY Chinese products, or you are bashing your countries economy.
> please stop celebrating Chinese festivals, including the spring festival.
> please remove all Chinese signs from your traditional buildings.
> 
> it is really offensive to see those Chinese signs on those dirty vietnamese buildings.



all festival in Vietnam is base on our tradition, except Autumn festival and new year holidays following Lunar calendar's. I think VN govt can give up or ban it.

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## Viet

sweetouch said:


> Does Vietnam still consider Cambodia and Laos as close allies considering their pro-China stance?







_map of Indochina_

Historically Vietnam considers Laos and Cambodia as her backyard. Both countries are of immense strategic importance for Vietnam, not only because of land and resources, they protect Vietnam from the western flank. To keep Laos and Cambodia under control is one of our primary goals. So Vietnam invests a lot of time, money and human resources to limit China and Thailands influence in the direct neighborhood.

Luckily Laos is a close ally of Vietnam. In the 1979 Sino-Vietnam war, they sided with Vietnam and turned against China. In contrast, Cambodia is an unreliable partner. They dislike Vietnam and Thailand due to history (we both defeated Cambodia and shared the booty after the wars.). If Cambodia can choose, it would side with China, but fears possible Vietnamese reaction. Anyway, the current Prime Minister Hun Sen was installed as VN´s puppet after we overthrew the Red Khmers after 1978 invasion. 

And he is still in power.

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## yue10

1111111111111111111111111


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## Viet

Vietnam-Japan Spring Fest in Hanoi: "costume play" (2013)

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## Viet

Vietnam-Japan Spring Festival in in Tokyo (2013)














_Japanese youths in Vietnamese traditional costumes_










































_Japanese girls in shirts with Vietnam&#8217;s national flag.
_

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## yue10

seriously, this site is retarded, I wrote post and then it says I can't post then auto log off

only joking Viets!


is there any Viet here who is expert knowledge in ancient Vietnam history because I was reading some stuff and it seem like Viets weren't in the delta until much later, the original Dong Son people and Baiyue is something to do with Austronesian and Tai-Kadai, all the cultural markers depicted on the drums or recorded later all match up with Austronesian

Taizong appealed to Le Hoan 


> "Although your seas have pearls, we will throw them into the rivers, and though your mountains produce gold, we will throw it into the dust. We do not covet your valuables. You fly and leap like savages, we have horse-drawn carriages. *You drink through your noses, we have rice and wine. Let us change your customs. You cut your hair, we wear hats; *when you talk, you sound like birds. We have examinations and books. *Let us teach you the knowledge of the proper laws ... Do you not want to escape from the savagery of the outer islands and gaze upon the house of civilization? Do you want to discard your garments of leaves and grass and wear flowered robes embroidered with mountains and dragons? Have you understood?" *



Taizong of Song was in 10th century so if Viets ancestors were always in the delta aren't they already supposed to have been heavily Sinicised by then, from this quote Viets was still so primitive so it must be that Viets were only recently came from Nghe Tinh in the mountains starting from around the Black emperor time

does any Viets know about Viet Thuong/yueshang? Viets was not Baiyue but different Yue of Viet Thuong clans, yue just mean beyond, i.e from Zhou etc realm right?


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## yue10

Soryu said:


> Pro-China !? Cambodia and Laos !? No.
> 
> Cambodian welcome anyone invest to their country, China give them big money in recent, so they reponsd with sweet words to get PRC's aid.
> *Hunsen's party or Sam Rainsy's Party are same intention with China, but Hunsen know Cambodia can't screw with Vietnam.*Laos is Vietnamese's ally, for sure. They also want to get investment to economy, so they welcome China, done.
> 
> Vietnam consider any country is friend if they come with friendly attitude.



showcasing the evil Vietnamese race, they are a barbaric and vicious warmonger people enslaving others but having a massive cry with their Northern brothers!








> During the period 1813  1815, Vietnamese perpetrated the infamous massacre, known to every Khmer as Prayat Kompup Te Ong. It was the most barbarous torture style in which the Khmer were buried alive up to their neck. Their heads were used as the stands for a wood stove to boil water for the Vietnamese masters. As they were burned and suffered, the victims shook their heads. At that moment, the Vietnamese torturers jokingly said Be careful, not to spill the masters tea.
> 
> During his dynasty (1802-19), King Gia Long started an irrigation project in the Province of Mot Chrouk (Chaudoc). Thousands of the Khmer Krom were forced to dig a canal named Chum Nik Prek Teng (Vinh Te), 53 kilometers long and 25 meters wide, from Bassac River to the Gulf of Siam. During this forced labor project from 1813-1820, many thousands of the Khmer Krom were killed. In one particular instance the Khmer workers were buried alive so that the Vietnamese soldiers could use their heads as stove stands to boil water for tea for their Vietnamese masters. The phrase Be careful not to spill the masters Tea is still well reminded to their Children by all Khmer Krom parents or grandparents.
> 
> Before the Canal Project well done, Annamite soldiers held Khmer laborers into Pillories, each pillory contained about 20-40 people (they said to prevent Khmer laborers run away from mobilization), at least from 2-5 thousand were locked in pillories located in the canal; the dam was opened, water filled the canal, all Khmer laborers were drowned, no one was survive.


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> seriously, this site is retarded, I wrote post and then it says I can't post then auto log off
> 
> only joking Viets!
> 
> 
> is there any Viet here who is expert knowledge in ancient Vietnam history because I was reading some stuff and it seem like Viets weren't in the delta until much later, the original *Dong Son people and Baiyue* is something to do with Austronesian and Tai-Kadai, all the cultural markers depicted on the drums or recorded later all match up with Austronesian
> 
> Taizong appealed to Le Hoan
> 
> 
> Taizong of Song was in 10th century so if Viets ancestors were always in the delta aren't they already supposed to have been heavily Sinicised by then, from this quote Viets was still so primitive so it must be that Viets were only recently came from Nghe Tinh in the mountains starting from around the Black emperor time
> 
> does any Viets know about Viet Thuong/yueshang? Viets was not Baiyue but different Yue of Viet Thuong clans, yue just mean beyond, i.e from Zhou etc realm right?


you mixed too many things with different periods of time together: Dong Son people and Baiyue, Austronesian and Tai-Kadai (what?), Taizong and Le Hoan, Viets and Black emperor (what?), Viet Thuong/yueshang. But what is your conclusion?

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## rott

EastSea said:


> Chinese poisoned their country children for money.
> 
> The 2008 Chinese milk scandal was a food safety incident in the People's Republic of China, involving milk and infant formula, and other food materials and components, adulterated with melamine.
> By November 2008, China reported an estimated 300,000 victims,[1] with six infants dying from kidney stones and other kidney damage, and an estimated 54,000 babies being hospitalised.[2][3] The chemical appeared to have been added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content. In a separate incident four years before, watered-down milk had resulted in 13 infant deaths from malnutrition.[4]



If you didn't know the person responsible was prosecuted and executed. What have you done about the 73000 liters of Agent Orange sprayed in your country? Did you try suing the USA or just tucked tail and pretend it didn't happen?

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## Rechoice

rott said:


> If you didn't know the person responsible were prosecuted and executed. What have you done about the 73000 liters of Agent Orange sprayed in your country? Did you try suing the USA or just tucked tail and pretend it didn't happen?



idiot chinese. How many innocent Vietnamese were killed by Chinese PLA murders 1979 ?


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## Wholegrain

Rechoice said:


> idiot chinese. How many innocent Vietnamese were killed by Chinese PLA murders 1979 ?



How many Montagnards were killed by Vietnam?

The Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War: A Political, Social, and Military ... - Google knygos

Repression of Montagnards

Battle for the Central Highlands


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## EastSea

Rechoice said:


> idiot chinese. How many innocent Vietnamese were killed by Chinese PLA murders 1979 ?





Wholegrain said:


> How many Montagnards were killed by Vietnam?
> 
> The Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War: A Political, Social, and Military ... - Google knygos
> 
> Repression of Montagnards
> 
> Battle for the Central Highlands



there were bandits created by imperialism.

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## rott

Rechoice said:


> idiot chinese. How many innocent Vietnamese were killed by Chinese PLA murders 1979 ?



So according to your logic, your so called Vietnamese lives are expendable to your white masters but not in the hands of the Chinese?

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## EastSea

rott said:


> So according to your logic, your so called Vietnamese lives are expendable to your white masters but not in the hands of the Chinese?



PLA were murders. Dirty hands of traitors. China Deng kissed @ of USA 1972, 1979; your white master in cold war.

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## Fsjal

EastSea said:


> PLA were murders. Dirty hands of traitors. China Deng kissed @ of USA 1972, 1979; your white master in cold war.



As for VPA, they kill their own people. Vietnam has poor human rights. This doesn't make Vietnam any better than China.

_"The Vietnam government systematically suppresses freedom of expression, association, and peaceful assembly, and persecutes those who question government policies, expose official corruption, or call for democratic alternatives to one-party rule. Police harass and intimidate activists and their family members. Authorities arbitrarily arrest activists, hold them incommunicado for long periods without access to legal counsel or family visits, subject them to torture, and prosecute them in politically pliant courts that mete out long prison sentences for violating vaguely worded national security laws.

In 2012, police used excessive force in response to public protests over evictions, confiscation of land, and police brutality.

Land confiscation continues to be a flashpoint issue, with local farmers and villagers facing unjust confiscation of their lands by government officials and private sector projects. Those who resist face abuses from local authorities."_

*Source*
World Report 2013: Vietnam | Human Rights Watch

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## Sun Piwa

It's time to end the ill north vietnamese regime


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## cnleio

EastSea said:


> PLA were murders. Dirty hands of traitors. China Deng kissed @ of USA 1972, 1979; your white master in cold war.


I have no idea why ur Vietnamese like to talk China Deng welcomed U.S, i think that's not about Vietnam business it's only China foreign policy in that time.

I must say, during the Cold War China made a good choice for this country. And what ? In 21century Russia and China become the military allies, they set up the ShangHai Cooperation Organization and both sides had a joint military drill each year. 

Vietnamese call us as traitors again and again. I didn't hear China and Vietnam ever signed any agreement to show our allies, in Cold War China not Vietnam's backer we stayed in different sides and Vietnam violated China interests in Indo-china areas.

BTW 1960s Chinese fought with Soviets at North of China, 1980s we worked together with American and Pakistan to support weapons to Taliban against Soviets, 1990s-2000s Chinese worked together with new Russian to defend American threat. 1950s Chinese fought with U.N at Korean peninsula, 1970s-1980s we worked together with the West and American in Afghanistan and punished Vietnam in Indo-china, 1990s-2000s Russian and Chinese set up new allies. *<=== This is the POLITICAL GAME, only the weak need 'FOREIGN FRIEND'. A smart country have to know how playing the BALANCE in this world.*

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## yue10

rott said:


> If you didn't know the person responsible was prosecuted and executed. What have you done about the 73000 liters of Agent Orange sprayed in your country? Did you try suing the USA or just tucked tail and pretend it didn't happen?


let's all be honest and call these Vietnamese what they are...dogs, it's just too easy for someone like me to hate them so much, always complaining about communism or something else when they don't even understand reality but when it comes to papa America these apologists will get on their knees quicker than you can blink, also I think it was a lot more than 73000ltr more like 43 million



> THE U.S. attempt to starve Vietnam out, through a political and economic embargo, is senseless. Most Americans are not even aware that such a campaign is under way. After all, within the past year the U.S. government has re-approved most-favored-nation trade status for China, prepared to donate food to the Soviet Union, found a way to coexist with the brutal new SLORC regime in Burma, and applied a forgive-and-forget economic policy to most nations other than Iraq. *But in Vietnam the U.S. embargo remains the central fact of economic life. It makes existence undeservedly miserable for many millions of people, while doing no visible good for anyone -- except, perhaps, for businessmen in Taiwan, Singapore, Australia, and Japan.*
> 
> *The second part of the embargo policy consists of U.S. pressure on the World Bank, the Asian Development Bank, and the International Monetary Fund to keep them, too, from dealing normally with Vietnam. Although the United States is the single biggest force in each of these organizations, on its own it cannot dictate their policies. But the Japanese representatives, who make up the second-largest voting bloc, have lined up behind the United States on this issue, and together the two countries have stonily kept most international organizations out of Vietnam. *The United Nations operates a few small development-aid programs and an extensive refugee-processing system within Vietnam, but in general Vietnam must exist outside the network of loans, international credits, financial restructuring plans, and so forth that countries from Ghana to Peru to Bangladesh can participate in. (Technically, the IMF excludes Vietnam not because of the embargo but because Vietnam hasn't paid off some $140 million in old debts. Vietnam is hardly the only Third World country in arrears. Its problem could be cleared up with bridge loans, as has been done in many other countries, if Japanese and American banks could get involved.) Apart from the Soviet Union -- which has for the past decade subsidized Vietnam's economy, received tens of thousands of Vietnamese guest workers, and provided cut-rate shipments of fertilizer and oil -- Sweden and Finland are the only nations that have given Vietnam substantial amounts of foreign aid.
> 
> *Of the two components of the embargo, the pressure on international organizations is the more important. Vietnam has what is politely referred to as an "infrastructure problem." The roads, the telephones, the electrical-power network, and the water and sewage systems are terrible or nonexistent. I asked Vo Dai Luoc, of the Institute for World Economy, in Hanoi, "which problem is most urgent? Transportation? Communications? Power?" He answered, "yes" -- and not because he misunderstood me. The amount of money needed to create a telephone system for 6 million people, rebuild roads not maintained for twenty years, and renovate antique seaports and airports is more than any private investor will put up. Since the end of the Second World War mammoth infrastructure projects in many parts of the world have typically been sponsored by the World Bank or other international lending organizations; this is how Japan built its Bullet Train system in the 1960s. Other countries throughout Asia draw constantly on World Bank and Asian Development Bank advice and loans. Vietnam cannot, because the United States says no. *Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam are inching toward cooperation on several Mekong River projects, to cope with the environmental ruin of the Southeast Asian forests. The Mekong committee's office in Hanoi has a thick folder of requests for funding: so much to monitor water quality, so much to restock fish, so much to offset the intrusion of salt water into the Mekong Delta region. None of this can go anywhere so long as Vietnam is classified as a pariah.



Shut Out - 91.03



EastSea said:


> there were bandits created by imperialism.


again with the lies! Vietnamese are so pathetic that they copied everything from the Chinese even to the point of terming the indigenous non Kinh populations as 'Moi' and the Chinese word 'Man' for savages/barbarians and pushing them up to the mountains


----------



## yue10

Viet said:


> you mixed too many things with different periods of time together: Dong Son people and Baiyue, Austronesian and Tai-Kadai (what?), Taizong and Le Hoan, Viets and Black emperor (what?), Viet Thuong/yueshang. But what is your conclusion?



I don't have conclusion, I have to read more stuff that's why I asked the Viets here if they know about Viet Thuong, what is the reason people say Vietnamese were in the Hong plains during Dong Son period, An Duong Vuong, Nanyue etc?


----------



## EastSea

Sun Piwa said:


> It's time to end the ill north vietnamese government



The end was in 1976.



cnleio said:


> I have no idea why ur Vietnamese like to talk China Deng welcomed U.S, i think that's not about Vietnam business it's only China foreign policy in that time.
> 
> I must say, during the Cold War China made a good choice for this country. And what ? In 21century Russia and China become the military allies, they set up the ShangHai Cooperation Organization and both sides had a joint military drill each year.
> 
> Vietnamese call us as traitors again and again. I didn't hear China and Vietnam ever signed any agreement to show our allies, in Cold War China not Vietnam's backer we stayed in different sides and Vietnam violated China interests in Indo-china areas.
> 
> BTW 1960s Chinese fought with Soviets at North of China, 1980s we worked together with American and Pakistan
> to support weapons to Taliban against Soviets, 1990s-2000s Chinese worked together with new Russian to defend American thread. 1950s Chinese fought with U.N at Korean peninsula, 1970s-1980s we worked together with the West and American in Afghanistan and punished Vietnam in Indo-china, 1990s-2000s Russian and Chinese set up new allies. <=== This is the POLITICAL GAME, only the weak need 'FOREIGN FRIEND'.



1969, china attacked on Soviets to kiss @ of USA, to let China joined to UN. 1972 China kissed @ of USA in Peking, 1974 China robbed Islands of Vietnam. 1979 China kissed @ of USA in Washington and attacked Vietnam to show of her trust to new master.

and now, China turned back to russia. It's wrong something in mentality of China. You are black chess in hand of USA, not game pleyer.



yue10 said:


> let's all be honest and call these Vietnamese what they are...dogs, it's just too easy for someone like me to hate them so much, always complaining about communism or something else when they don't even understand reality but when it comes to papa America these apologists will get on their knees quicker than you can blink, also I think it was a lot more than 73000ltr more like 43 million
> 
> 
> 
> Shut Out - 91.03
> 
> 
> again with the lies! Vietnamese are so pathetic that they copied everything from the Chinese even to the point of terming the indigenous non Kinh populations as 'Moi' and the Chinese word 'Man' for savages/barbarians and pushing them up to the mountains



What are you barking here ?

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## cnleio

EastSea said:


> 1969, china attacked on Soviets to kiss @ of USA, to let China joined to UN. 1972 China kissed @ of USA in Peking, 1974 China robbed Islands of Vietnam. 1979 China kissed @ of USA in Washington and attacked Vietnam to show of her trust to new master.
> 
> and now, China turned back to russia. It's wrong something in mentality of China.


LOL, ur statment lacked historical datas
1. When 1972 PRC return U.N, U.S voted against it. Pls wiki: Voting records of the United Nations General Assembly Resolutions 505 and 2758, UNITED STATES voted No.

2. Islands from South Vietnam government , not today Vietnam.

3. American fought Vietnam War in 1960s, Chinese fought another version of Vietnam War in 1970s~1980s. Anyway China were not allies with S.U and Vietnam in Cold War.

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## yue10

EastSea said:


> The end was in 1976.
> 1969, china attacked on Soviets to kiss @ of USA, to let China joined to UN. 1972 China kissed @ of USA in Peking, 1974 China robbed Islands of Vietnam. 1979 China kissed @ of USA in Washington and attacked Vietnam to show of her trust to new master.
> 
> and now, China turned back to russia. It's wrong something in mentality of China. You are black chess in hand of USA, not game pleyer.
> What are you barking here ?




you are just another Viet worshipping big papa America never speaking against their crimes but always complaining about the Chinese


> But in Vietnam the U.S. embargo remains the central fact of economic life. It makes existence undeservedly miserable for many millions of people, while doing no visible good for anyone -- except, perhaps, for businessmen in Taiwan, Singapore, Australia, and Japan
> 
> *Of the two components of the embargo, the pressure on international organizations is the more important, Vietnam has what is politely referred to as an "infrastructure problem."* The roads, the telephones, the electrical-power network, and the water and sewage systems are terrible or nonexistent. I asked Vo Dai Luoc, of the Institute for World Economy, in Hanoi, "which problem is most urgent? Transportation? Communications? Power?" He answered, "yes" -- and not because he misunderstood me. The amount of money needed to create a telephone system for 6 million people, rebuild roads not maintained for twenty years, and renovate antique seaports and airports is more than any private investor will put up. Since the end of the Second World War mammoth infrastructure projects in many parts of the world have typically been sponsored by the World Bank or other international lending organizations; this is how Japan built its Bullet Train system in the 1960s. *Other countries throughout Asia draw constantly on World Bank and Asian Development Bank advice and loans. Vietnam cannot, because the United States says no.* Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam are inching toward cooperation on several Mekong River projects, to cope with the environmental ruin of the Southeast Asian forests. The Mekong committee's office in Hanoi has a thick folder of requests for funding: so much to monitor water quality, so much to restock fish, so much to offset the intrusion of salt water into the Mekong Delta region. None of this can go anywhere so long as Vietnam is classified as a pariah.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...want-know-about-vietnam-34.html#ixzz2f9Eo2yN5


.



> Vietnam agreed Monday to repay more than $145 million in debts to the United States *incurred by the defeated South Vietnamese regime*, eliminating a major roadblock to the eventual normalization of economic and trade relations between Washington and Hanoi.


wtf is this?
Vietnam to Repay $145 Million for U.S. Loans to South Vietnam - The Tech



> Throughout the Paris negotiations, the North Vietnamese tied the prisoner issue tightly to the issue of reparations. They were adamant in refusing to deal with them separately. Finally, in a Feb. 2, 1973 formal letter to Hanoi&#8217;s premier, Pham Van Dong, *Nixon pledged $3.25 billion in &#8220;postwar reconstruction&#8221; aid &#8220;without any political conditions.&#8221; *But he also attached to the letter a codicil that said the aid would be implemented by each party &#8220;in accordance with its own constitutional provisions.&#8221; *That meant Congress would have to approve the appropriation, and Nixon and Kissinger knew well that Congress was in no mood to do so. The North Vietnamese, whether or not they immediately understood the double-talk in the letter, remained skeptical about the reparations promise being honored&#8212;and it never was.* Hanoi thus appears to have held back prisoners&#8212;just as it had done when the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and withdrew their forces from Vietnam. In that case, France paid ransoms for prisoners and brought them home.


McCain and the POW Cover-Up | The American Conservative


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> wtf is this?
> Vietnam to Repay $145 Million for U.S. Loans to South Vietnam - The Tech


I think that is correct as per international law. North Vietnam is the successor of South Vietnam, so the united Vietnam is committed to pay back all debts owned by South Vietnam. 

But you are right, the Americans, former soldiers and politicians, those commited war crimes in Vietnam deserve a place in the hell. I hope they enjoy purgatory.

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## Viet

Sun Piwa said:


> It's time to end the ill north vietnamese government


and what comes after, you retard?



yue10 said:


> I don't have conclusion, I have to read more stuff that's why I asked the Viets here if they know about Viet Thuong, what is the reason people say Vietnamese were in the Hong plains during Dong Son period, An Duong Vuong, Nanyue etc?


how about to google or search on Internet? As I said previously, they happened at different periods of time, don´t mix up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Son_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyue
http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi%E1%BB%87t_Th%C6%B0%E1%BB%9Dng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_D%C6%B0%C6%A1ng_V%C6%B0%C6%A1ng

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## EastSea

cnleio said:


> LOL, ur statment lacked historical datas
> 1. When 1972 PRC return U.N, U.S voted against it. Pls wiki: Voting records of the United Nations General Assembly Resolutions 505 and 2758, UNITED STATES voted No.
> 
> 2. Islands from South Vietnam government , not today Vietnam.
> 
> 3. American fought Vietnam War in 1960s, Chinese fought another version of Vietnam War in 1970s~1980s. Anyway China were not allies with S.U and Vietnam in Cold War.



1. USA played his game, he could stop this general voting in advance.
2. Islands were in control of South Vietnam following Geneva accord 1954. In any case, Islands are part of United Vietnam's territory after reunification. It's stated in Geneva accord 1954 its was signed by China and North Vietnam.
3 China joined to socialist pack 1950 when Mao dropped in Moscow and signed related documents with Stalin. China fought another version of Vietnam War in 1970s~1980s because China changed her master from Soviets to USA.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> 1. USA played his game, he could stop this general voting in advance.
> 2. Islands were in control of South Vietnam following Geneva accord 1954. In any case, Islands are part of United Vietnam's territory after reunification. It's stated in Geneva accord 1954 its was signed by China and North Vietnam.
> 3 China joined to socialist pack 1950 when Mao dropped in Moscow and signed related documents with Stalin. China fought another version of Vietnam War in 1970s~1980s because China changed her master from Soviets to USA.



Vietnam Joins the World - Google Books

Vietnam Joins the World - Google Books



> *In fact during this period, when Hanoi was relying heavily on the Chinese for support, the Hanoi authorities seem to have recognized the Spratlys and the Paracels as Chinese territories.* Three bits of evidence for this are often cited by China.33 *The first is a statement by Vietnamese Deputy Foreign Minister Ung Van Khien to Chinese Deputy Foreign Minister Li Zhimin in which the former indicated that Vietnam had recognized the Paracels and the Spratlys as Chinese territory since the days of the Song dynasty. The second is Pham Van Dong's letter dated September 14, 1958. It supported China's statement, extending its territorial waters twelve nautical miles. The statement clearly mentioned the Paracels and Spratlys by name as belonging to China. Third, in May 1965, the (North) Vietnamese Foreign Ministry criticized the United States for defining "part of China's Paracels" as a "fighting operation area."34
> When victory was finally attained over the South, however, Hanoi was anxious to pick up all the pieces and claims left by the fallen regime. It acknowledged later that it had indeed previously acquiesced in China's claims to the islands but argued that times since then had changed.
> 
> At that time, Vietnam had to struggle against American intervention and aggression. . . . During this period, China regarded American imperialism as its main enemy and firmly supported the anti-American war of the Vietnamese people and was the "Vietnamese people's great rear base." China was one of the biggest aid donors to Vietnam. In the anti-American struggle, China and Vietnam became real friends. Relations between the two were "as close as lips and teeth." . . . During this period of opposing a much stronger enemy, the more Vietnam could let China fight hand in hand with Vietnam, the more advantageous for Vietnam to prevent America from using these two archipelagoes, and avoid attacks from the South China Sea [the East Sea in Vietnamese]. We have to understand the above statements in this spirit.36
> 
> With this rationale, in 1975 Vietnam asserted its claims to both the Paracels and the Spratlys and physically took possession of the six Spratly islands that the former South Vietnamese regime had occupied. In later years other islands were added.*


*

This is what happened to Vietnam for its duplicity.

Johnson South Reef Skirmish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


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## cnleio

EastSea said:


> 1. USA played his game, he could stop this general voting in advance.
> 2. Islands were in control of South Vietnam following Geneva accord 1954. In any case, Islands are part of United Vietnam's territory after reunification. It's stated in Geneva accord 1954 its was signed by China and North Vietnam.
> 3 China joined to socialist pack 1950 when Mao dropped in Moscow and signed related documents with Stalin. China fought another version of Vietnam War in 1970s~1980s because China changed her master from Soviets to USA.


It's unpolite when a Vietnamese called China as traitor, specially u didn't understand China foreign politics. 

One thing all we can know China and Vietnam didn't signed any allies agreement (China signed military allies with North Korea in 1950s and now still work, but 1960s not with North Vietnam) , in Cold War started from 1960s China stayed out off S.U allies that's why United State seek the normal relationships with China not Vietnam. And Chinese got our interests from the West, u think today economic and development gaps between China and Vietnam started from 2000s ? No the result during whole of Cold War time.

Today ur Vietnamese Company sell many goods to China market and import many goods from China dealers, Vietnam seek business and investment from China, did it mean Chinese become ur master again ? If ur guys hate China so much, why need to trade with us ?

BTW after Cold War ur ever little socialist partners like Hungary, Czech, Poland, these East-Europe countries who ever supported ur Vietnam now all become the West. When Vietnam will join ur partners to follow ur guys called "traitor way" ? ABANDONED !

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam Joins the World - Google Books
> 
> Vietnam Joins the World - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> This is what happened to Vietnam for its duplicity.
> 
> Johnson South Reef Skirmish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



It's trash !

Following terms and conditions of Geneva Accord 1954 was signed by China and North Vietnam, Vietnam was temporally divided in to States. Islands of Vietnam are allocated below the 17th Parallel then there were under control of South Vietnam. Then North Vietnam Govt didn't have right over Islands of South Vietnam.

Can North Korea agree that Dokdo belong to Japan ?

nghiencuubiendong.vn/.../132-white-paper-on-the-hoang-sa-paracel-and...&#8206;
Republic of Vietnam. Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Saigon, 1975.


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> It's trash !
> 
> Following terms and conditions of Geneva Accord 1954 was signed by China and North Vietnam, Vietnam was temporally divided in to States. Islands of Vietnam are allocated below the 17th Parallel then there were under control of South Vietnam. Then North Vietnam Govt didn't have right over Islands of South Vietnam.
> 
> nghiencuubiendong.vn/.../132-white-paper-on-the-hoang-sa-paracel-and...&#8206;
> Republic of Vietnam. Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Saigon, 1975.



The North Vienam government is currently ruling Vietnam today, not South Vietnam. And thats right, it doesn't have right over those islands and you admit it, so stop claiming them.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> The North Vienam government is currently ruling Vietnam today, not South Vietnam. And thats right, it doesn't have right over those islands and you admit it, so stop claiming them.



The National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam (NLF), and his government has been taken power in Saigon 1975, they have right to all Islands and territory of South Vietnam. The united Vietnam has been reestablished in 1976 including North and South Vietnam. Islands is part of Trritory of Vietnam.

I reminder you that North Vietnam never said what Chinese is lying now about Islands of Vietnam.


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## EastSea

double post


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## EastSea

cnleio said:


> It's unpolite when a Vietnamese called China as traitor, specially u didn't understand China foreign politics.
> 
> One thing all we can know China and Vietnam didn't signed any allies agreement (China signed military allies with North Korea in 1950s and now still work, but 1960s not with North Vietnam) , in Cold War started from 1960s China stayed out off S.U allies that's why United State seek the normal relationships with China not Vietnam. And Chinese got our interests from the West, u think today economic and development gaps between China and Vietnam started from 2000s ? No the result during whole of Cold War time.
> 
> Today ur Vietnamese Company sell many goods to China market and import many goods from China dealers, Vietnam seek business and investment from China, did it mean Chinese become ur master again ? If ur guys hate China so much, why need to trade with us ?
> 
> BTW after Cold War ur ever little socialist partners like Hungary, Czech, Poland, these East-Europe countries who ever supported ur Vietnam now all become the West. When Vietnam will join ur partners to follow ur guys called "traitor way" ? ABANDONED !



I can say politely that China changed his friends in cold war.

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## Fsjal

EastSea said:


> I can say politely that China changed his friends in cold war.



China did not abandon the Soviets first. It was the Soviet Union who abandoned China. Khrushchev denounced Stalin (who he succeeded) and Mao. Khrushchev was a revisionist. 


Troll, why don't you learn some history first before you type garbage.


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## Viet

cnleio said:


> It's unpolite when a Vietnamese called China as *traitor*, specially u didn't understand China foreign politics.
> 
> One thing all we can know China and Vietnam didn't signed any allies agreement (China signed military allies with North Korea in 1950s and now still work, but 1960s not with North Vietnam) , in Cold War started from 1960s China stayed out off S.U allies that's why United State seek the normal relationships with China not Vietnam. And Chinese got our interests from the West, u think today economic and development gaps between China and Vietnam started from 2000s ? No the result during whole of Cold War time.


I think you shouldn´t generalize things, not all Viets call you "traitor". For instance, as South Vietnamese, I don´t call you in such way. South Vietnam was a Republic and ally of America. Moreover, traditionally the people in the South have a love and hate relationship with China, and is more or less balanced. We South Vietnamese are more pragmatic. The North Vietnamese are different. As comreades they saw China as partner and ally in the wars against France and America, and were shocked when China supported the Red Khmer and raged war against Vietnam in 1979. Without this sad event, the Sino-Vietnam relationship would look quite differently today.

Though, I suggest we all may stop talking of the past for a while and rather speak of the future as this century belongs to Asia. The last 40 years, since Deng Xiaoping started the economic reform, have been seen as one of the greatest periods of Chinse history. No doubt. I know some of my Viet fellows hate this guy. 

Vietnam must live under the shadow of giant China. That is depressing.


cnleio said:


> I
> Today ur Vietnamese Company sell many goods to China market and import many goods from China dealers, Vietnam seek business and investment from China, did it mean Chinese become ur master again ? *If ur guys hate China so much*, why need to trade with us ?
> 
> BTW after Cold War ur ever little socialist partners like Hungary, Czech, Poland, these East-Europe countries who ever supported ur Vietnam now all become the West. When Vietnam will join ur partners to follow ur guys called "traitor way" ? ABANDONED !


You know what? we hate you because of bloody history and like you because of cultures and custom. Most importantly, as long as China does not bully Vietnam, all is fine. It is politics, and involves nationalist sentiment on both sides. As for Sino-VN trade, it is not affected by the current dispute at all. The bilateral trade grows at averaged rate of 20-30% per year. Last year figure stood at $41bn, this year may be 50, next year $60bn. That is not too bad!

As China achieves huge trade surplus in trading with us, I would appreciate if you make real efforts and import more products from Vietnam. That would support a healthy relationship.


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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> The *North Vienam government* is currently ruling Vietnam today, not South Vietnam.


wrong, there is a Vietnamese government and its members come from North as well as South Vietnam.


Wholegrain said:


> And thats right, it doesn't have right over those islands and you admit it, so stop *claiming *them.


wrong again, after unification North and South have become one entity with all commitments and claims of former parts of Vietnam. Sure, North Vietnam as the victor decides rule of the game.


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## Viet

this thread is running well. Maybe I ask the mod to make it sticky if possible. @Hu Songshan, what do you think?


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## Viet

Vung Tau, a seaport and beach for the Saigoners

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## EastSea

Fsjal said:


> China did not abandon the Soviets first. It was the Soviet Union who abandoned China. Khrushchev denounced Stalin (who he succeeded) and Mao. Khrushchev was a revisionist.
> 
> 
> Troll, why don't you learn some history first before you type garbage.



China opened fire on back of Soviet Union 1969. It was good signal for USA in cold war, for that China was ready to change his friends not only verbal discussions.

Khrushchev was called a revisionist by Chinese. But China did the same footsteps when Deng Xiaoping given away Mao's Ideas and applied the policy of mouses.

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## yue10

Viet said:


> I think that is correct as per international law. North Vietnam is the successor of South Vietnam, so the united Vietnam is committed to pay back all debts owned by South Vietnam.
> 
> But you are right, the Americans, former soldiers and politicians, those commited war crimes in Vietnam deserve a place in the hell. I hope they enjoy purgatory.


yes but...



> Progressive rhetoric in the debt ceiling debate holds that if the US doesnt raise the ceiling it will automatically be in default. This is an intentional lie told for political reasons. It has nothing to do with economic or budgetary soundness. Any default will arise from US actions after we fail to raise the debt ceiling, not simply because we fail to raise it.
> But what if it were true? It might not be the apocalyptic event everyone claims. It depends on international response. After all, China has intentionally defaulted on trillions of dollars of debt and the PRC is doing just fine. So much for default being disastrous to a nation.
> From 1900 to 1939, China issued bonds purchased worldwide and even recommended by the US government as a sound investment. These were long term bonds of the sort issued by governments around the world; the same sort of US bonds held by China today and which the US is said to be in danger of defaulting on.
> *Following the Communist takeover, the new government repudiated that debt and refused to pay it. It continues to do so. The American Bondholders Foundation values the defaulted bonds at over $750 billion to American citizens who are holding full faith and credit sovereign bonds sold to them by the Republic of China. Worldwide, the debt China owes to all bondholders is estimated to be several trillion dollars.*
> Despite being issued by a previous Chinese government, the current government of China owes this money under accepted and recognized international law. *That law holds that an  established and widely recognized government of a nation is liable under international law for the full faith and credit obligations of the established and widely recognized predecessor government of the same nation.
> China has practically acknowledged and accepted responsibility for the debt. *In the late 1980s it settled some of these bonds issued in Great Britain to regain access to British financial markets. In the late 1970s China settled American claims for property nationalized by it in 1949. Jonna Bianco at American Bondholders Foundation reports that China has insisted the current Iraqi government be responsible for Iraqi debt accrued under Saddam Hussein. Of course, the PRC had no problem with accepting Hong Kongs transfer to it despite not existing when the lease was drafted. Even the Left leaning Huffington Post and PBS acknowledge that such debt is not easily repudiated. Where there are questions, it is usually how much to repay and how to repay it. But the matter of whether the debt is valid or not is settled.
> The US government has made any number of symbolic and meaningless protests in favor of the Chinese honoring their obligations. Other actions by members of Congress are more substantial. To date nothing has been done. Not by the US, anyway. China, on the other hand, has downgraded its US credit rating based on the USs deteriorating debt repayment capability and drastic decline of the US governments intention of debt repayment. One assumes the news was delivered with a straight face.
> China has intentionally defaulted on its obligations and has no plan to remedy the matter. The PRC enjoys international credit, investment and trade all while thumbing its nose at law and morality. Each time the issue comes up, it boldly restates its intentions not to pay. It simply continues to do business, ignores the protests and expects the world to follow its lead in refusing to address the issue.
> Given that, why is anyone in the US worked up about a default that has not yet happened and will not happen even if the debt ceiling isnt raised on Tuesday?
> Speaking of the debt ceiling debate, heres an idea. Since the Chinese owe US citizens billions of dollars and since they also hold billions in US debt, why dont we just reduce our debt by the amount the Chinese owe us and pay the principle and interest to American citizens?
> That injects billions into the economy without raising taxes, eliminates the need to raise the debt ceiling, reduces US debt, and avoids talk of a dubious default. Its TARP, Qualitative Easing and Keynesian nonsense rolled up in a plan that puts American interests first, reduces taxes, increases savings and investment and stimulates economic growth all while keeping governmental ideas on how to do all that at bay.
> By happy coincidence, the American Bondholders Foundation has a plan to do something quite similar to exactly that.
> All it will take is an American government more willing to squeeze the Chinese government than it is to squeeze the American people. Comments are open  what say you


?

China Owes US $1 Trillion - Make Them Pay
Why Worry About a US Default? China Defaulted and Nothing Bad Happened to the PRC. Â« Blue Collar Muse
It&#39;s Time for China to Pay Its Debts to the United States | Fox News
China owes America billions | The Daily Caller
I think it's time the US on behalf of their citizens either call in this debt or unilaterally proceed with a mutual debt cancellation for the amount outstanding, although it is privately held debt 



Fsjal said:


> China did not abandon the Soviets first. It was the Soviet Union who abandoned China. Khrushchev denounced Stalin (who he succeeded) and Mao. Khrushchev was a revisionist.
> Troll, why don't you learn some history first before you type garbage.


Khrushchev was a pragmatist dummy, please, as a Phillipines person who's country was abandoned when the US imperialist found new pets to keep on a leash, who were royally screwed by Bell Trade Act you should not be telling Viets to do anything, what a country to produce people of such low quality, on other forums there are even Flips that seemingly have an affinity to having their country be the ***** house of the US asking for the return of the Subic Naval Base



Viet said:


> I think that is correct as per international law. North Vietnam is the successor of South Vietnam, so the united Vietnam is committed to pay back all debts owned by South Vietnam.
> 
> But you are right, the Americans, former soldiers and politicians, those commited war crimes in Vietnam deserve a place in the hell. I hope they enjoy purgatory.


yes but...



> Progressive rhetoric in the debt ceiling debate holds that if the US doesnt raise the ceiling it will automatically be in default. This is an intentional lie told for political reasons. It has nothing to do with economic or budgetary soundness. Any default will arise from US actions after we fail to raise the debt ceiling, not simply because we fail to raise it.
> But what if it were true? It might not be the apocalyptic event everyone claims. It depends on international response. After all, China has intentionally defaulted on trillions of dollars of debt and the PRC is doing just fine. So much for default being disastrous to a nation.
> From 1900 to 1939, China issued bonds purchased worldwide and even recommended by the US government as a sound investment. These were long term bonds of the sort issued by governments around the world; the same sort of US bonds held by China today and which the US is said to be in danger of defaulting on.
> *Following the Communist takeover, the new government repudiated that debt and refused to pay it. It continues to do so. The American Bondholders Foundation values the defaulted bonds at over $750 billion to American citizens who are holding full faith and credit sovereign bonds sold to them by the Republic of China. Worldwide, the debt China owes to all bondholders is estimated to be several trillion dollars.*
> Despite being issued by a previous Chinese government, the current government of China owes this money under accepted and recognized international law. *That law holds that an  established and widely recognized government of a nation is liable under international law for the full faith and credit obligations of the established and widely recognized predecessor government of the same nation.
> China has practically acknowledged and accepted responsibility for the debt. *In the late 1980s it settled some of these bonds issued in Great Britain to regain access to British financial markets. In the late 1970s China settled American claims for property nationalized by it in 1949. Jonna Bianco at American Bondholders Foundation reports that China has insisted the current Iraqi government be responsible for Iraqi debt accrued under Saddam Hussein. Of course, the PRC had no problem with accepting Hong Kongs transfer to it despite not existing when the lease was drafted. Even the Left leaning Huffington Post and PBS acknowledge that such debt is not easily repudiated. Where there are questions, it is usually how much to repay and how to repay it. But the matter of whether the debt is valid or not is settled.
> The US government has made any number of symbolic and meaningless protests in favor of the Chinese honoring their obligations. Other actions by members of Congress are more substantial. To date nothing has been done. Not by the US, anyway. China, on the other hand, has downgraded its US credit rating based on the USs deteriorating debt repayment capability and drastic decline of the US governments intention of debt repayment. One assumes the news was delivered with a straight face.
> China has intentionally defaulted on its obligations and has no plan to remedy the matter. The PRC enjoys international credit, investment and trade all while thumbing its nose at law and morality. Each time the issue comes up, it boldly restates its intentions not to pay. It simply continues to do business, ignores the protests and expects the world to follow its lead in refusing to address the issue.
> Given that, why is anyone in the US worked up about a default that has not yet happened and will not happen even if the debt ceiling isnt raised on Tuesday?
> Speaking of the debt ceiling debate, heres an idea. Since the Chinese owe US citizens billions of dollars and since they also hold billions in US debt, why dont we just reduce our debt by the amount the Chinese owe us and pay the principle and interest to American citizens?
> That injects billions into the economy without raising taxes, eliminates the need to raise the debt ceiling, reduces US debt, and avoids talk of a dubious default. Its TARP, Qualitative Easing and Keynesian nonsense rolled up in a plan that puts American interests first, reduces taxes, increases savings and investment and stimulates economic growth all while keeping governmental ideas on how to do all that at bay.
> By happy coincidence, the American Bondholders Foundation has a plan to do something quite similar to exactly that.
> All it will take is an American government more willing to squeeze the Chinese government than it is to squeeze the American people. Comments are open  what say you


?

http://www.americanbondholdersfoundation.com/action_alert.html
http://bluecollarmuse.com/2011/07/31/why-worry-about-a-us-default-china-defaulted-and-nothing-bad-happened-to-the-prc/
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/08/26/its-time-for-china-to-pay-its-debts-to-united-states/
http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/13/china-owes-america-billions/
I think it's time the US on behalf of their citizens either call in this debt or unilaterally proceed with a mutual debt cancellation for the amount outstanding, although it is privately held debt 



Fsjal said:


> China did not abandon the Soviets first. It was the Soviet Union who abandoned China. Khrushchev denounced Stalin (who he succeeded) and Mao. Khrushchev was a revisionist.
> Troll, why don't you learn some history first before you type garbage.


Khrushchev was a pragmatist dummy, please, as a Phillipines person who's country was abandoned when the US imperialist found new pets to keep on a leash, who were royally screwed by Bell Trade Act you should not be telling Viets to do anything, what a country to produce people of such low quality, on other forums there are even Flips that seemingly have an affinity to having their country be the ***** house of the US asking for the return of the Subic Naval Base


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## yue10

again with this site now I can't edit the last post


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## Fsjal

Being called a dog, says the North Korean, who got their assed kick by the UN, and needing Uncle China to bail them out.

Show your face, false flagger.


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## yue10

Fsjal said:


> Being called a dog, says the North Korean, who got their assed kick by the UN, and needing Uncle China to bail them out.


it's not the honourable North Korean's fault that Mother Russia never vetoed and let's not talk about getting bailed out or getting your azz kicked because the Philippines knows all too well about that, even after the war was over Mr Onoda surviving in the jungles was still terrorising your people



> Show your face, false flagger.


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## Viet

Fsjal said:


> *Show your face*, false flagger.


I wonder who you are?
Assuming you are a Pinoy. I wonder why you keep critizing other Pinoys and worship the Chinese?



yue10 said:


> again with this *site *now I can't edit the last post


there war a problem with the site, issue seems to be fixed now. try again.


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> *Taizong *appealed to Le Hoan
> 
> Taizong of Song was in 10th century so if Viets ancestors were always in the delta aren't they already supposed to have been heavily Sinicised by then, from this quote Viets was still so primitive so it must be that Viets were only recently came from Nghe Tinh in the mountains starting from around the Black emperor time...


As Korean troll I assume you should be aware of the world view of the Chinese.

They call their country as Zhongguo, as land in the middle, located in the center of the world. In ancient China, they viewed others as *barbarians*, as uncivilized people living in the jungle. In 18 century, when others more developed nations like Imperial Japan and Colonial Powers like England and France, sought trades with China, Chinese emperors were not interested. 

So similar to the case of Vietnam, Taizong didn´t know much about the Viets and our country in the South. I guess he never left China and made overseas trips. He mistakenly thought we lived like primitive people in the jungle. Well, that is not our fault.



> Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news - Why Vietnam loves and hates China
> 
> Like a stern headmaster, Taizong appealed to Le Hoan to see reason and return to the Chinese fold:
> 
> "Although your seas have pearls, we will throw them into the rivers, and though your mountains produce gold, we will throw it into the dust. We do not covet your valuables. You fly and leap like savages, we have horse-drawn carriages. You drink through your noses, we have rice and wine. Let us change your customs. You cut your hair, we wear hats; when you talk, you sound like birds.
> 
> We have examinations and books. Let us teach you the knowledge of the proper laws ... Do you not want to escape from the savagery of the outer islands and gaze upon the house of civilization? Do you want to discard your garments of leaves and grass and wear flowered robes embroidered with mountains and dragons? Have you understood?"
> 
> In fact Le Hoan understood Taizong very well and, like his modern successors, knew exactly what he wanted from China - access to its culture and civilization without coming under its political control or jeopardizing Vietnamese freedom in any way. This attitude infuriated Taizong, as it would generations of Chinese to come.


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## eddieInUK

What is the Major ideology ruling or dominating Vietnam today ? Buddism, Confucianism or others ? Please give some details.


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## Viet

eddieInUK said:


> What is the Major ideology ruling or dominating Vietnam today ? Buddism, Confucianism or others ? Please give some details.


The majority practices ancestor worship and indigenous religions regardless of they are communist, capitalist, atheist or whatever. So nearly all homes have altar.




















Besides, many Vietnamese are followers of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism (called the three teachings or tam giáo). The two latter were due to Chinese heritage. Around 8% of the Vietnamese are Christians (mostly Catholics).










































Religion in Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Sun Piwa

@Viet

*Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news - Why Vietnam loves and hates China*

It's simple: vietnamese love chinese when they make them proud & hate them the rest of the time


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## EastSea

> In AD 248, the Vietnamese heroine Lady Trieu, who led a popular uprising against the Chinese occupation, proclaimed: *"I want to ride the great winds, strike the sharks on the high seas, drive out the invaders, reconquer the nation, burst the bonds of slavery and never bow to become anyone's concubine." *



Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news and business from Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam

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## eddieInUK

Viet said:


> The majority practices ancestor worship and indigenous religions regardless of they are communist, capitalist, atheist or whatever. So nearly all homes have altar.
> 
> Besides, many Vietnamese are followers of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism (called the three teachings or tam giáo). The two latter were due to Chinese heritage. Around 8% of the Vietnamese are Christians (mostly Catholics).


The religions believed in Vietnam are almost the same as China !



Sun Piwa said:


> @Viet
> 
> *Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news - Why Vietnam loves and hates China*
> 
> It's simple: vietnamese love chinese when they make them proud & hate them the rest of the time


Not many people in China talk about Vietnam, currently, not many opportunities provided by Viet can benefit China, moreover, 
there is competition between China and Viet among low-level manufacturing sector. If a win-win situation can be built, the future would be brilliant.


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## NiceGuy

Lets have some fun

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## Viet

eddieInUK said:


> ...
> *Not many people in China talk about Vietnam*, currently, not many opportunities provided by Viet can benefit China, moreover,
> there is competition between China and Viet among low-level manufacturing sector. If a win-win situation can be built, the future would be brilliant.


I hope you continue this policy and keep distance of Vietnam. Not all of us want to talk on China. We see ASEAN and in some extent the world as the play field. China sucks.

President Truong Tan Sang begins a state visit to Denmark

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## Sun Piwa

eddieInUK said:


> The religions believed in Vietnam are almost the same as China !
> 
> 
> Not many people in China talk about Vietnam, currently, not many opportunities provided by Viet can benefit China, moreover,
> there is competition between China and Viet among low-level manufacturing sector. If a win-win situation can be built, the future would be brilliant.



I think that unfortunately the tensions for the oil islands are too strong & a total peace would be difficult.
And China is becoming very big, so it's difficult for them not having expansionist ideas, and for Vietnam it's difficult not to be scared.

BTW i don't hate the chinese, i was talking for other people who do.



NiceGuy said:


> Lets have some fun



A tree is very heavy, if it's photoshopped it's well done, especially the vietnamese woman picture.

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## Snomannen

Sun Piwa said:


> I think that unfortunately the tensions for the oil islands are too strong & a total peace would be difficult.
> And China is becoming very big, so it's difficult for them not having expansionist ideas, and for Vietnam it's difficult not to be scared.
> 
> BTW i don't hate the chinese, i was talking for other people who do.
> 
> 
> 
> A tree is very heavy, if it's photoshopped it's well done, especially the vietnamese woman picture.



Different kind of tree has different weight.

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## yue10

Viet said:


> As Korean troll I assume you should be aware of the world view of the Chinese. *They call their country as Zhongguo, as land in the middle, located in the center of the world.* In ancient China, they viewed others as barbarians, as uncivilized people living in the jungle. In 18 century, when others more developed nations like Imperial Japan and Colonial Powers like England and France, sought trades with China, Chinese emperors were not interested.
> So similar to the case of Vietnam, Taizong didn´t know much about the Viets and our country in the South. I guess he never left China and made overseas trips. He mistakenly thought we lived like primitive people in the jungle. Well, that is not our fault.


your Viets is truly pathetic...


> In adopting Chinese customs, the Vietnamese court also adopted the Chinese world view. In 1805, the Emperor Gia Long referred to Vietnam as trung qu&#7889;c, the "middle kingdom".[9] In 1811, Gia Long proposed a law Hán di h&#7919;u h&#7841;n (&#28450;&#22839;&#26377;&#38480, which means "making clear the border between the Vietnamese and barbarians", referring to the Vietnamese as Han people.





NiceGuy said:


> Lets have some fun


this is not the 'Kinh' ethnic, stop lying to everyone



EastSea said:


> Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news and business from Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam
> 
> 
> 
> In AD 248, the Vietnamese heroine Lady Trieu, who led a popular uprising against the Chinese occupation, proclaimed: "I want to ride the great winds, strike the sharks on the high seas, drive out the invaders, reconquer the nation, burst the bonds of slavery and never bow to become anyone's concubine."
Click to expand...

again lying, I did not have much time for trolling recently but when I do I will go back to looking at your history and prove that all these people have nothing to do with the Vietnamese, your Viets did not even settle in the delta until much later in the AD period around Black Emperor time, I remember reading some BS about the Viet-Muong split being the Muongs running away into the mountains but it is the other way around, your uncivilised Viets with no culture came down and copied everything from the Chinese, this is why later the Nung Tri Cao, a Tai, was not happy with your Mon-Khmer Viets because the delta was Tai and probably Austronesian homelands



Viet said:


> The majority practices ancestor worship and indigenous religions regardless of they are communist, capitalist, atheist or whatever. So nearly all homes have altar.
> Besides, many Vietnamese are followers of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism (called the three teachings or tam giáo). The two latter were due to Chinese heritage. Around 8% of the Vietnamese are Christians (*mostly Catholics*).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Religion in Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


these people is what is commonly known as double agent traitors


> In the case of Vietnam, the role played by the Catholic Church has been paramount. Not only during the conflict, but also during the agonizing period of its termination. It was then that the Vatican struck a deal with the Communists of the North, while the USA went on fighting. The Pope externalized the secret Vatican-North Vietnam deal by consecrating the WHOLE of Vietnam&#8212;that is the North and the South to the Virgin Mary. This was years before the war had even ended. Details of the secretive Vatican-Communist operations can be assessed in the work of the present author Vietnam, Why Did We Go?





Sun Piwa said:


> @Viet
> *Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news - Why Vietnam loves and hates China*
> It's simple: vietnamese love chinese when they make them proud & hate them the rest of the time


I don't think you are the Vietnamese but anyways if you are your people is just a cheap $2 knockoff of the Chinese ethnic, remember ethnic identity is based on culture not this ridiculous 'blood' idea, it is that simple


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## Sun Piwa

yue10 said:


> I don't think you are the Vietnamese but anyways if you are your people is just a cheap $2 knockoff of the Chinese ethnic, remember ethnic identity is based on culture not this ridiculous 'blood' idea, it is that simple



Why am i not vietnamese?

ethnic identity is based on both culture and "blood"


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> ..
> again lying, *I did not have much time for trolling* recently but when I do I will go back to looking at your history and prove that all these people have nothing to do with the Vietnamese, your Viets did not even settle in the delta until much later in the AD period around Black Emperor time,
> 
> I remember reading some BS about the Viet-Muong split being the Muongs running away into the mountains but it is the other way around, your uncivilised Viets with no culture came down and copied everything from the Chinese, this is why later the Nung Tri Cao, a Tai, was not happy with your Mon-Khmer Viets because the delta was Tai and probably Austronesian homelands


yeah...just keep trolling you troll. Don´t forget, if you make a statement concerning our history, to quote the source! Otherwise I´ll ignore you.


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## NiceGuy

VNese in Ukraine


> CPV: Overseas Vietnamese community in Kharkov is a solid and stable block and Ukraine to be regarded as their second homeland.
> There are 8,000 overseas Vietnamese are living in Ukraine in general and about 5,000 in Kharkov city in particular, according to Vietnamese Ambassador to Ukraine, Associate Professor, Doctor Vu Duong Huan.
> They are the creators of some standard Vietnamese villages in Ukraine which show the standard models in financial and social contribution to the local authority.
> 
> Village of Age built in a large-scale ground, about tens of hectares, with lots of high buildings and luxurious complex apartments. In these buildings, there are luxurious hundreds meters rooms for the rich person beside mid-small rooms for the less rich ones.
> Currently, the village is running a project on building an entertainment complex include swimming pools, recreation parks, sports places, games in side and outside door areas.	'
> 
> In the middle of the village is the Thanh Giong statue.
> 
> The most impressive thing in the village are the Vietnamese cultural characteristics in the decoration of its buildings.
> The high-grade and luxurious restaurants in the city with Asian eating-drinking centers are redecorated by the two beautiful Ly Dynasty dragons on the top of its roofs.
> The Sun supermarket is one of the modernest buying and selling centers in the city with nice and supple Vietnamese architectural decorations.
> 
> This village has contributed to the success of the TECHNOCOM group in Ukraine by high quality products which are awarded some international prizes namely &#8220; The gold quality product&#8221;, &#8220; The Europe quality product&#8221;, &#8220; The best seller product in Ukraine&#8221; and &#8220; The choice of the year&#8221;.
> www.cpv.org.vn - Village of Age- A Vietnamese village in Europe.







In the middle of the village is the Thanh Giong statue





Truc Lam pagoda in Kharkov, Ucraine

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> again lying, I did not have much time for trolling recently but when I do I will go back to looking at your history and prove that all these people have nothing to do with the Vietnamese, your Viets did not even settle in the delta until much later in the AD period around Black Emperor time, I remember reading some BS about the Viet-Muong split being the Muongs running away into the mountains but it is the other way around, your uncivilised Viets with no culture came down and copied everything from the Chinese, this is why later the Nung Tri Cao, a Tai, was not happy with your Mon-Khmer Viets because the delta was Tai and probably Austronesian homelands




Do you know who was Tri&#7879;u Th&#7883; Trinh ?



> In AD 248, the Vietnamese heroine Lady Trieu, who led a popular uprising against the Chinese occupation, proclaimed: "I want to ride the great winds, strike the sharks on the high seas, drive out the invaders, reconquer the nation, burst the bonds of slavery and never bow to become anyone's concubine."



Read more kid. Tri&#7879;u Th&#7883; Trinh (&#7844;t T&#7883; 225-Bính D&#7847;n 246) N&#7919; anh hùng dân t&#7897;c,

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## Viet

more pics from Hanoi


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## sms

NiceGuy said:


> Lets have some fun



ha ha ha

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## yue10

Sun Piwa said:


> Why am i not vietnamese?
> ethnic identity is based on both culture and "blood"


I just insulted your Viets and you did not say anything



EastSea said:


> Do you know who was Tri&#7879;u Th&#7883; Trinh ?
> Read more kid. Tri&#7879;u Th&#7883; Trinh (&#7844;t T&#7883; 225-Bính D&#7847;n 246) N&#7919; anh hùng dân t&#7897;c,


it is unfortunate for you that Ba Trieu did not actually exist, there is recurring theme that many of your historical figures either did not exist or were some other ethnic but Viets claim as their own, desperate is all I can say...

are you the Negrito dude?


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> I just insulted your Viets and you did not say anything
> 
> 
> it is unfortunate for you that Ba Trieu did not actually exist, there is recurring theme that many of your historical figures either did not exist or were some other ethnic but Viets claim as their own, desperate is all I can say...
> 
> are you the Negrito dude?



idiot trolls.


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## yue10

EastSea said:


> idiot trolls.


am I lying?


> Historical Controversy
> There is some controversy concerning the existence of Trieu Thi Trinh. *She is not mentioned in any Vietnamese historical records written before the late Lê Dynasty and she does not appear in any Chinese historical records. *One example is the famous recorded speech Nguy&#7877;n Hu&#7879; (Emperor Quang Trung) gave to his troops when the Manchu tried to invade Vietnam in 1788. It makes no mention of Trieu Thi Trinh:
> 
> &#8220;The Qing have invaded our country and occupied the capital city, Thang Long. In our history, the Tr&#432;ng sisters fought against the Han, &#272;inh Tien Hoàng against the Song, Tr&#7847;n H&#432;ng &#272;&#7841;o against the Yuan (Mongols), and Lê L&#7907;i against the Ming. These heroes did not resign themselves to standing by and seeing the invaders plunder our country; they inspired the people to fight for a just cause and drive out the aggressors&#8230;The Qing, forgetting what happened to the Song, Mongols and Ming, have invaded our country. We are going to drive them out of our territory.&#8221;[cite this quote]
> 
> The Sanguozhi (Records of the Three Kingdoms) however does mention of a rebellion in the commanderies of Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen in AD 248, *but there is no mention of Trieu Thi Trinh*. Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen were two commanderies set up in North Vietnam. The revolt was put down by Lu Yin (, a minor Wu officer and junior relative of Lu Xun . Here is an excerpt from Lu Yin's Sanguozhi biography concerning about the revolt in 248 AD:
> 
> &#8220;In the 11th year of Chiwu 248 in Jiaozhi , Jiuzhen rebels attacked walled cities which caused a great uproar. Lu Yin of Hengyang was given rank of the Inspector of Jiaozhou by the Sovereign of Wu. He took his troops and entered the southern border and sent word to the rebels. He used his craftiness to convince them to accept his terms. Gao Liang , the commander Huang Wu with 3,000 households came out to surrender. Lu Yin now led the army south to that region. He announced his sincerity [to the aborigines] and distributed gifts. The [remaining] 100 rebel leaders and 50,000 households, who had been unruly and unapproachable, kowtowed [to Lu Yin]. Thus the territory was handed over peacefully. At once Lu Yin was given the rank of General who Tranquilizes the South. Again he was sent on a punitive expedition against the rebels in Cang Wu . He defeated them quickly. From start to finish Lu Yin's military troops totaled 8,000. (Later commentaries also cited that Lu Yin then helped to plant crops and kept the people fed.)&#8221;
> 
> *Some historians believe that she is an obscure character that was not recorded in earlier history because her revolt was relatively short lived and was quickly put down by the equally obscure Lu Yin, or that her exploits were originally not as successful as they were later made out to be.* Others also point to the striking similarities between Trieu Thi Trinh and the traditional Vietnamese account of the Tr&#432;ng Sisters which has also been alleged by many to be a highly fictionalized account created during the same period. Nevertheless, most Vietnamese consider her to be a real historical figure and revere her as a heroine of Vietnam. She appears in many modern Vietnamese history books.


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## Sun Piwa

yue10 said:


> I just insulted your Viets and you did not say anything
> 
> 
> it is unfortunate for you that Ba Trieu did not actually exist, there is recurring theme that many of your historical figures either did not exist or were some other ethnic but Viets claim as their own, desperate is all I can say...
> 
> are you the Negrito dude?



The hatred has beautiful days here. 

I'am not fan of unjustified wars, so i let you alone.
Everybody has a hatred, the anti-asian hatred is not for me.

I prefer cooperative people like chinesetiger1986

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## Viet

yue10 said:


> I just insulted your Viets and you did not say anything
> 
> it is unfortunate for you that *Ba Trieu* did not actually exist, there is recurring theme that many of your historical figures either did not exist or were some other ethnic but Viets claim as their own, desperate is all I can say...


Tri&#7879;u Th&#7883; Trinh (Ch&#7919; nôm: &#36249;&#27663;&#35998 existed (225&#8211;248), regardless of you troll believe or not. 










_Bà Tri&#7879;u Temple_

source wiki:
Lady Trieu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## yue10

Viet said:


> Tri&#7879;u Th&#7883; Trinh (Ch&#7919; nôm: &#36249;&#27663;&#35998 existed (225248), regardless of you troll believe or not.
> _Bà Tri&#7879;u Temple_
> source wiki:
> Lady Trieu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I am the troll but it is better to trust me than your Viets with much lies, everything I said has truth in it but it just sounds rude the way I am writing that's all, anyone can easily tell your Viet's history is full of lies simply from all the Viets that always desperate to claim about Baiyue and history that they have civilisation before Chinese influence but the truth is that Vietnamese people was uncivilised Mon-Khmer tribes until they receive blessings and become poor man's knock off of Chinese people, what a shame

did you even that? you should not trust the Keith Taylor for that part he also said Hungs existed


> Historical differences[edit source]
> 
> There are some historical differences between the Chinese and Vietnamese accounts, however. *Chinese records makes no mention of Trieu Thi Trinh.* All available information in regards to Trieu Thi Trinh come from solely from Vietnamese sources that were written during or after the late Ming Dynasty.[8] For example the Sanguozhi (Records of the Three Kingdoms), a classical Chinese historical account, does mention about a rebellion at this time in the commanderies of Jiaozhi (&#20132;&#36286;; Vietnamese: Giao Ch&#7881 and Jiuzhen (&#20061;&#30495;, Vietnamese: C&#7917;u Chân) as following:
> In the 11th year of Chiwu (&#36196;&#28879 [248] in Jiaozhi (&#20132;&#36286, Jiuzhen (&#20061;&#30495 rebels attacked walled cities which caused a great uproar. Lu Yin (&#38520;&#32996 [of Hengyang (&#34913;&#38525 ] was given rank of the Inspector of Jiaozhou by the Sovereign of Wu. He took his troops and entered the southern border and sent word to the rebels. He used his craftiness to convince them to accept his terms. [In] Gao Liang (&#39640;&#28092, the commander Huang Wu (&#40644;&#21555 with 3,000 households came out to surrender. Lu Yin now led the army south to that region. He announced his sincerity [to the aborigines] and distributed gifts. The [remaining] 100 rebel leaders and 50,000 households, who had been unruly and unapproachable, kowtowed [to Lu Yin]. Thus the territory was handed over peacefully. At once Lu Yin was given the rank of General who Tranquilizes the South. Again he was sent on a punitive expedition against the rebels in Cang Wu (&#33980;&#26791. He defeated them quickly. From start to finish Lu Yin's military troops totaled 8,000. (Later commentaries also cited that Lu Yin then helped to plant crops and kept the people fed.) [9]
> Keith W. Taylor, an American professor, explained these differences as following:
> Chinese records do not mention Lady Trieu; our knowledge of her comes only from Vietnamese sources. From this it is evident that the events of 248 were remembered differently by the two sides. The Chinese only recorded their success in buying off certain rebel leaders with bribes and promises. The resistance led by Lady Trieu was for them simply a kind of stubborn barbarism that was wiped out as a matter of course and was of no historical interest. On the other hand, the Vietnamese remembered Lady Trieu's uprising as the most important event of the time. Her leadership appealed to strong popular instincts. The traditional image of her as a remarkable yet human leader, throwing her yard-long breasts over her shoulders when going into battle astride an elephant, has been handed down from generation to generation. After Lady Trieu's death, her spirit was worshipped by the Vietnamese. We owe our knowledge of her to the fact that she was remembered by the people.[8]

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> I am the troll but it is better to trust me than your Viets with much lies, everything I said has truth in it but it just sounds rude the way I am writing that's all, anyone can easily tell your Viet's history is full of lies simply from all the Viets that always desperate to claim about Baiyue and history that they have civilisation before Chinese influence but the truth is that Vietnamese people was uncivilised Mon-Khmer tribes until they receive blessings and become poor man's knock off of Chinese people, what a shame
> 
> did you even that? you should not trust the Keith Taylor for that part he also said Hungs existed



Chinese invaders were beating and ran way. It's truth and enough said.


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## ChineseTiger1986

yue10 said:


> I am the troll but it is better to trust me than your Viets with much lies, everything I said has truth in it but it just sounds rude the way I am writing that's all, anyone can easily tell your Viet's history is full of lies simply from all the Viets that always desperate to claim about Baiyue and history that they have civilisation before Chinese influence but the truth is that Vietnamese people was uncivilised Mon-Khmer tribes until they receive blessings and become poor man's knock off of Chinese people, what a shame
> 
> did you even that? you should not trust the Keith Taylor for that part he also said Hungs existed



Agree, Vietnam did look like a mini China in the ancient time.

This mimics the dress of the Ming Dynasty.

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## Yeti

What is the Viet view on Hinduism? and Hindu people in general being Buddhist and under the dharmic tree I would consider all of us as one brotherhood yet my experiences in Thailand has proved otherwise not all but some people I encountered were very 'white' wannabe and seemed to think the west is like some kinda dream place full of gold. Do people judge on colour like I have seen in some parts of SE Asia? it often goes on in Burma too still to this day they use the word kala to describe Indians


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## NiceGuy

Yeti said:


> What is the Viet view on Hinduism? and Hindu people in general being Buddhist and under the dharmic tree I would consider all of us as one brotherhood yet my experiences in Thailand has proved otherwise not all but some people I encountered were very 'white' wannabe and seemed to think the west is like some kinda dream place full of gold. Do people judge on colour like I have seen in some parts of SE Asia? it often goes on in Burma too still to this day they use the word kala to describe Indians


We have a Hindu temple in Ho Chi Minh city, I have no religious, but sometimes I come there wt my friends(non religious) and pray to find peace in mind too 










Many VNese also r 'white' wannabe too, but its not a big problem, we dont have racist view to the other nations.

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## EastSea

Yeti said:


> What is the Viet view on Hinduism? and Hindu people in general being Buddhist and under the dharmic tree I would consider all of us as one brotherhood yet my experiences in Thailand has proved otherwise not all but some people I encountered were very 'white' wannabe and seemed to think the west is like some kinda dream place full of gold. Do people judge on colour like I have seen in some parts of SE Asia? it often goes on in Burma too still to this day they use the word kala to describe Indians



Muslim Temple in Hanoi. It's reported that only 55 Vietnamese are living in Hanoi are Muslim.






Chuy

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## Viet

Yeti said:


> *What is the Viet view on Hinduism? *and Hindu people in general being Buddhist and under the dharmic tree I would consider all of us as one brotherhood yet my experiences in Thailand has proved otherwise not all but some people I encountered were very 'white' wannabe and seemed to think the west is like some kinda dream place full of gold.
> 
> Do people judge on colour like I have seen in some parts of SE Asia? it often goes on in Burma too still to this day they use the word kala to describe Indians


People in Vietnam know little or nothing about India and Hinduism. Sure, India plays an important role in Vietnamese foreign policy (as containment policy against China). However, the majority Viets rarely have personal contacts with India as there is virtually a vast ocean between the two nations in terms of cultures and custom. Honestly speaking, India still has a long way to go, improving your image in overseas.

Racism exists everywhere in the world, Vietnam is not an exeption, but it only plays a minor role in daily´s life. I predict you won´t take a notice of Racism if you travel to Vietnam.

In HCMC University of Social Sciences and Humanities, there are Vietnamese students majoring in Indian Studies at the Faculty of Oriental Studies. Some images recently:


*Indian Consulate celebrates Hindi Day in Ho Chi Minh City
*





_The Consul General of India, Dr Deepak Mittal, is seen smiling during the celebration._






_Lecturers and students are pictured watching short videos on India.
_





_Vietnamese Indian Studies students at the HCMC University of Social Sciences and Humanities perform an Indian dance at the beginning of the celebration of Hindi Day in Ho Chi Minh City. Picture taken September 24, 2013.
_

Indian Consulate celebrates Hindi Day in Ho Chi Minh City | Tu

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## djsjs

Viet said:


> more pics from Hanoi


very nice city

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## Sun Piwa

NiceGuy said:


> We have a Hindu temple in Ho Chi Minh city, I have no religious, but sometimes I come there wt my friends(non religious) and pray to find peace in mind too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many VNese also r 'white' wannabe too, but its not a big problem, we dont have racist view to the other nations.



So you're a south vietnamese or a north vietnamese living in the south?


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## NiceGuy

Sun Piwa said:


> So you're a south vietnamese or a north vietnamese living in the south?


Im north vietnamese living in the south, now Im back to the North

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## EastSea

self deleted


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## yue10

Yeti said:


> What is the Viet view on Hinduism? and Hindu people in general being Buddhist and under the dharmic tree I would consider all of us as one brotherhood yet my experiences in Thailand has proved otherwise not all but some people I encountered were very 'white' wannabe and seemed to think the west is like some kinda dream place full of gold. Do people judge on colour like I have seen in some parts of SE Asia? it often goes on in Burma too still to this day they use the word kala to describe Indians


sorry, but the Viet will never be the brother of a Indian your people is brown, it is ridiculous to see other Viets engage your people for the sake of Chinese 'containment'



NiceGuy said:


> We have a Hindu temple in Ho Chi Minh city, I have no religious, but sometimes I come there wt my friends(non religious) and pray to find peace in mind too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many VNese also r 'white' wannabe too, *but its not a big problem*, we dont have racist view to the other nations.


this is how I know the Vietnamese can never achieve anything close to what the Japanese or Korean have been able to achieve, their mentality is just sick never have one ounce of rationality only idiotic 'patriotism' fuelled by an inferiority complex with China



EastSea said:


> Muslim Temple in Hanoi. It's reported that only 55 Vietnamese are living in Hanoi are Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chuy


this place should be demolish along with the one in HCMC and Dong Nai, it does not belong in your country 



Viet said:


> People in Vietnam know little or nothing about India and Hinduism. Sure, India plays an important role in Vietnamese foreign policy (as containment policy against China). However, the majority Viets rarely have personal contacts with India as there is virtually a vast ocean between the two nations in terms of cultures and custom. Honestly speaking, India still has a long way to go, improving your image in overseas.
> Racism exists everywhere in the world, Vietnam is not an exeption, but it only plays a minor role in daily´s life. I predict you won´t take a notice of Racism if you travel to Vietnam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Vietnamese Indian Studies students at the HCMC University of Social Sciences and Humanities perform an Indian dance at the beginning of the celebration of Hindi Day in Ho Chi Minh City. Picture taken September 24, 2013.
> _


what is wrong with your country? why do they study about Indian and not the Vietnamese

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## Namin

Vietnamese also mixed with French's DNA in nearly 100 years, especially in the south Vietnam. That's why most of South Vietnamese have bigger eyes than Chinese. Actually, the biggest difference in appearance of Vietnamese and Chinese is that Vietnamese have big eyes while Chinese have small eyes.


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> sorry, but the Viet will never be the brother of a Indian your people is brown, it is ridiculous to see other Viets engage your people for the sake of Chinese 'containment'
> 
> 
> this is how I know the Vietnamese can never achieve anything close to what the Japanese or Korean have been able to achieve, their mentality is just sick never have one ounce of rationality only idiotic 'patriotism' fuelled by an inferiority complex with China
> 
> 
> this place should be demolish along with the one in HCMC and Dong Nai, it does not belong in your country
> 
> 
> what is wrong with your country? why do they study about Indian and not the Vietnamese





Namin said:


> Vietnamese also mixed with French's DNA in nearly 100 years, especially in the south Vietnam. That's why most of South Vietnamese have bigger eyes than Chinese. Actually, the biggest difference in appearance of Vietnamese and Chinese is that Vietnamese have big eyes while Chinese have small eyes.



you're both can be Sino-Khmer Rouge.


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## Namin

EastSea said:


> you're both can be Sino-Khmer Rouge.



I am 100% South Vietnamese. My paternal grand-grand-father is a jiaozhi (he has special foot of jiaozhi people) but one of my maternal grand-grand-mother is French. Many old people in my family can speak French fluently but none of them can recognize Chinese character or English. Many of my French friends told me that their ancestors are from Vietnam although they looked no difference with other white men.


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## elis

Namin said:


> Vietnamese also mixed with French's DNA in nearly 100 years, especially in the south Vietnam. That's why most of South Vietnamese have bigger eyes than Chinese. Actually, the biggest difference in appearance of Vietnamese and Chinese is that Vietnamese have big eyes while Chinese have small eyes.






Where did you hear this BS?
People in SV are usually more brown skinned than the NV.

I've seen more NV who look like french because the french have been more in the north than in the south
A lot of NV look also like the chinese

I've seen 2 NV girl who look very beautiful, you know long legs, beautiful face, a bit like the westerners.

But not all of them are actually beautiful

Having big eyes has nothing to see with race mixing with the westerners: the fillippinos, the thailandese, the combodians don't have slanty eyes


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## Namin

> Where did you hear this BS?
> People in SV are usually more brown skinned than the NV.
> 
> I've seen more NV who look like french because the french have been more in the north than in the south
> A lot of NV look also like the chinese
> 
> I've seen 2 NV girl who look very beautiful, you know long legs, beautiful face, a bit like the westerners.
> 
> But not all of them are actually beautiful
> 
> Having big eyes has nothing to see with race mixing with the westerners: the fillippinos, the thailandese, the combodians don't have slanty eyes


This guy, Elis, lived in Paris but he behaves impolitely. French captured South Vietnam ( actually Cuu Long delta) before they gained control of the whole Vietnam. You never met any girl from Can Tho or Vinh Long, Ben Tre. Tell you one point, there's even one area in Ben Tre, where girls are extremely beautiful because of their special western white skin (some said it's because they drink too much coconut juice, but the fact is French Catholic preachers have arrived that location hundred years ago in the Nguyen Dynasty times, and most of people there have Catholics religion). People in the South have brown-skinned because it's hotter in the south. and maybe you just met SV people in Saigon, which many of them migrate from the Central and North Vietnam but not people in Cuu Long delta river. 
The first Western secondary school, which French established in Vn was in My Tho. There is still a skeleton of a French female teacher, who devoted her body for teaching Biology, there. You just didn't know anything about South Vietnam. Anyway, Sv girls and NV girls are equally beautiful ( I had Ha Noi girlfriend and Sai Gon Ex-girllfriend)
Do you know "Cong tu Bac Lieu", He had French wife and French servant. Many members of rich families in Cuu Long delta river get married with French.


----------



## elis

Namin said:


> This guy, Elis, lived in Paris but he behaves impolitely. French captured South Vietnam ( actually Cuu Long delta) before they gained control of the whole Vietnam. You never met any girl from Can Tho or Vinh Long, Ben Tre. Tell you one point, there's even one area in Ben Tre, where girls are extremely beautiful because of their special western white skin (some said it's because they drink too much coconut juice, but the fact is French Catholic preachers have arrived that location hundred years ago in the Nguyen Dynasty times, and most of people there have Catholics religion). People in the South have brown-skinned because it's hotter in the south. and maybe you just met SV people in Saigon, which many of them migrate from the Central and North Vietnam but not people in Cuu Long delta river.
> The first Western secondary school, which French established in Vn was in My Tho. There is still a skeleton of a French female teacher, who devoted her body for teaching Biology, there. You just didn't know anything about South Vietnam. Anyway, Sv girls and NV girls are equally beautiful ( I had Ha Noi girlfriend and Sai Gon Ex-girllfriend)
> Do you know "Cong tu Bac Lieu", He had French wife and French servant. Many members of rich families in Cuu Long delta river get married with French.



Maybe as i've never known anything else than Saigon, and in Saigon girls are not especially white skinned or race mixed with westerners.

There are some who are born from american soldiers but it's not super often

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## Viet

elis said:


> Maybe as i've never known anything else than Saigon, and in Saigon girls are not especially white skinned or race mixed with westerners.
> 
> There are some who are born from american soldiers but it's not super often


either you want to troll or you simply are just a retard.


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## Viet

elis said:


> Where did you hear this BS?
> *People in SV are usually more brown skinned than the NV.
> *
> I've seen more NV who look like french because the french have been more in the north than in the south
> A lot of NV look also like the chinese
> 
> I've seen 2 NV girl who look very beautiful, you know long legs, beautiful face, a bit like the westerners.
> 
> But not all of them are actually beautiful
> 
> Having big eyes has nothing to see with race mixing with the westerners: the fillippinos, the thailandese, the combodians don't have slanty eyes


The sun shines more in the South than in the North. Both regions have totally different climate.
In France or Germany you will never know if a Viet girl comes from the North or the South Vietnam. 

There is no difference in skin color.


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## elis

Fortunately the accent can help me.

But i've seen some very beautiful nv girls, long legs, nice ***, beautiful face, and feminine

But not all are like that, i've seen a lot of not very pretty girls too and quite dark skinned

I think there's a little difference between north and south, the north people look a bit more like chinese
There are also a type of people looking a bit like Hochiminh that we don't find much in the south










It's like in France where we find in the south more people with brown hair than in the north, where people often have blond hair & blue eyes


----------



## Wholegrain

The original founders of the first civilization and state in Vietnam were Daic (Tai-Kadai) peoples, not Austro Asiatics (the ancetors of the ethnic Kinh Vietnamese). The Hung Kings, and Van Lang state were Daic.

The Baiyue (hundred yue) label used by China, described a variety of ethnic groups speaking many different language families like tai-kadai, hmong-mien, and austro-asiatic. They were unrelated to each other.

There were Tai speakers all over Yunnan, Guangxi, Guangdong, and in northern Vietnam's border provinces like Lao Cai and Cao Bang. Tai speaking Tay and Nung people live in northern Vietnam's border provinces with China, in fact the King Vietnamese in those provinces like Lao Cai and Cao Bang are immigrants, the Tai peoples are the natives. Zhuang and Nung are the Chinese and Vietnamese names for the same Tai speaking peoples in Guangxi and northern Vietnam.

There were Tai speakers all over Yunnan, Guangxi, Guangdong, and in northern Vietnam's border provinces. Tai speaking Tay and Nung people live in northern Vietnam's border provinces with China, in fact the King Vietnamese in those provinces like Lao Cai and Cao Bang are immigrants, the Tai peoples are the natives. Zhuang and Nung are the Chinese and Vietnamese names for the same Tai speaking peoples in Guangxi and northern Vietnam.

The Van Lang and Au Lac states were Tai speaking Baiyue dominating over the Austroasiatic speaking Baiyue (Vietnamese Kinh ancestors), and then the Vietnamese appropiated the legends, myths and culture of their Tai overlords and turned it into their own mythology. Lac Long Quan could also be Tai.

The ancestors of the ethnic Vietnamese Kinh were restricted to the Red River delta in northern Vietnam while the Tai peoples dominated Guangdong, Guangxi, Lao Cai, Cao Bang and other areas.

The Tay and Nung also do teeth blackening. The Trung sisters could also have been Tai Baiyue, and the ancestors of the Kinh Vietnamese hijacked their legend and made it their own.

The Nanyue state consisted of a Chinese King (Zhao Tuo) and a Chinese upper class with the common people being Tai speaking Baiyue.

The history of the Yue people in Guangdong and Guangxi belongs to the Zhuang Tai speaking people. They are the ones who made up most of Van Lang, Au Lac and Nanyue's population, while ancestors of Kinh Vietnamese were in the Red River Delta only. And Au Lac was founded by a Chinese prince from the State of Shu named An Duong and Nanyue was founded by a Chinese General, Zhao Tuo. The Lingnan area of China (Guangdong and Guangxi) is a mix of Chinese and Tai and has nothing to do with ethnic Vietnamese Kinh.

Page 88

Arts of Asia - Google Books



> Among the early Daic states were those of Van Lang, located northwest of Hanoi where the Red, Black, and Clear rivers merge in Vinh Phu province



Page 5

Textiles of the Daic Peoples of Vietnam - Michael C. Howard, Kim Be Howard - Google Books



> This early date is highly doubtful, but it is clear that the Hung kings were Daic speakers (and not Viet). In this regard, Chamberlain (1998: 38-39) points out that an important Chinese source, Jao Tsung-i, uses a character to designate the Hung



Textiles of the Daic Peoples of Vietnam - Michael C. Howard, Kim Be Howard - Google Books



> One of the earliest Daic states in northern Vietnam was named Van Lang. Van Lang was located to the northwest of Hanoi around where the Red, Black, and Clear rivers merge in Vinh Phu province. The region was called Mi Linh.



The Dongson culture was Daic (Tai) and not Austroasiatic Mon-Khmer Vietnamese.

Page 139

Arts of Asia - Google Books



> As an aside, at the time I found it interesting that the journal Alun- Uimer Studies used the Dongson bird motif on its cover, even though it should have been apparent that the motif is associated with Tai or Daic peoples and not with Mon-Khmer speaking peoples.



The Chinese Shu Prince Thuc Phan (An Duong Vuong) was the one who united the Daic Au Lac Kingdom with the Red River Valley by conquering the Red River valley, subjugating the ancestors of the ethnic Vietnamese Kinh to Chinese-Daic rule.

Arts of Asia - Google Books



> He conquered Van Lang and extended his territory into the lowlands of the Red River delta. His enlarged kingdom was known as Ou Lo and its founding is usually dated 258 BC:. Thuc Phan built a new capital (which Vietnamese refer to as Co ...



An Duong was a Chinese Prince from the State of Shu in Sichuan.

The Birth of Vietnam - Keith Weller Taylor - Google Books

Page 36

Asian Perspectives - Google Books



> In 257 B.C. An Duong Vuong dethroned the last Hung king, and the kingdom of Van Lang ceased to exist. Traditional Vietnamese historiography relates that An Duong Vuong came from Pa Shu (usually thought to be in modern Sichuan).



The Phung-Nguyen culture was composed of ethnic Kadai, Tai, and Cham, not Vietnamese Kinh.

Arts of Asia - Google Books



> Prior lo the arrival of the Tai, the population may well have been composed of Kadai speaking peoples associated with the Phung-Nguycn culture. Later the area was inhabited by Tai and Cham as well.42 To understand the importance of the



This is a paper on Tai peoples in southern China and northern Vietnam.

http://www.uta.edu/faculty/jerry/pol.pdf

This is the homeland of Kinh Vietnamese, the Red River Delta.






This is the modern distribution of Daic (Tai Kadai) peoples.






The Baiyue that the Cantonese mixed with were Tai speaking Baiyue. Who were not related to austro asiatic Vietnamese. The Tai Baiyue were displaced by Han migrants from northern China who became ancestors of the Cantonese.

The Power of Words: Literacy and Revolution in South China, 1949-95 - Glen Peterson - Google Books

Cantonese and Tai languages like Zhuang have influenced each other.

Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books

The Languages of China - S. Robert Ramsey - Google Books

Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages - Christopher Moseley - Google Books

The Baiyue who inhabited Guangdong and Guangxi were Tai speakers like the Zhuang, and not ancestors of Kinh Vietnamese.

"Vietnamese" dynasties (dynasties ruling Dai Viet) before the last Le dynasty considered themselves to be Chinese. Chinese was regarded as a socio political class, meaning anyone who follows Chinese civilization can be called Chinese.

The Trieu dynasty, the anterior Ly dynasty, the Tran Dynasty and the Ho dynasty were established by ethnic Chinese.

Trieu Dynasty

The Birth of Vietnam - Keith Weller Taylor - Google Books

Ly Dynasty

The Birth of Vietnam - Keith Weller Taylor - Google Books

Tran Dynasty

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

Ho Dynasty

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

The Ho tried to make big changes like changing &#272;&#7841;i Vi&#7879;t to &#272;&#7841;i Ngu &#22823;&#34398;, and abolishing Classical Chinese as the official language and using vernacular Vietnamese written with Chu Nom. Both of their initiatives failed. All other dynasties used Classical Chinese as the official language.

The Vietnamese were against these un-Chinese practices like writing in vernacular Vietnamese, and forced the rulers to change back to Classical Chinese, which was regarded as civilized, and many of the Vietnamese supported the Ming against the Ho.

When the Ming dynasty China occupied Vietnam, many of the Vietnamese (ancestors of the Kinh) from the Red River delta in Vietnam supported China and regarded themselves as Chinese. The "Vietnamese" rebel Le Loi was from Thanh Hoa, a border province where the "barbarian" Trai people live. The Vietnamese regarded the Trai as barbarians and uncivilized. Le Loi was part Trai and he relied on Trai soldiers in his support in rebelling against the Ming while the Vietnamese supported the Ming,

After Le Loi's victory, he founded the Le Dynasty. The Le dynasty created the concept of ethnic "Kinh" Vietnamese, the people of the vapital, to distinguish themselves from Chinese and ordered historians like Ngo Si Lien to write fake histories claiming that the Vietnamese nation was 4,000 years old to separate themselves from China. 

Trai people, means people of the camps, due to their "barbarian" status and lifestyle, while Kinh people meant people of the capital, and they were sinicized culturally.

Ngo Si Lien was the Le dynasty historian who invented the 4,000 years of history with the Hung Kings and claim of descent from Emperor Shennong.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Blood and Soil: A World History of Genocide and Extermination from Sparta to ... - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

The Le dynasty invented the claim that Vietnam existed for 4,000 years to make themselves appear seperate and equal to Chinese civilization and codified the stories of the Hung Kings. The Temples and Mausoleok of the Hung Kings was buillt in 1802. That is approximately 3,800 years out of date.

Some of the sources say that the Muong people are descended from the Trai. The Trai and Kinh were of the same austro asiatic origin, the difference is that the sinicized "civilized" Kinh Vietnamese regarded the Trai as "barbarians".

Strange Parallels: Southeast Asia in Global Context, C. 800 - 1830 - Victor B. Lieberman - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

The Kinh trace their roots to the Red River Delta. The Le dynasty created the Kinh ethnicity to designate ethnic Vietnamese and classify them seperately from ethnic minorities and foreigners. Kinh means capital, and Kinh people means people of the capital.

Goddess on the Rise: Pilgrimage and Popular Religion in Vietnam - Philip Taylor - Google Books

Human Rights in Asia: A Comparative Legal Study of Twelve Asian ... - Google Books

Historical Dictionary of the Peoples of the Southeast Asian Massif - Jean Michaud - Google Books

Postwar Vietnam: Dynamics of a Transforming Society - Google Books

Culture and Customs of Vietnam - Mark W. McLeod, Thi Dieu Nguyen - Google Books

The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia - James C. Scott - Google Books

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## Wholegrain

Delete repeated post


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## Wholegrain

Vietnam held a supremacist, racist, and condescending view of foreigners, Vietnam viewed all of its neighbors as barbarians, and the Nguyen dynasty Emperors even referred to Vietnamese people as "Han" (Chinese), and Vietnam as "Zhong guo" (trung quoc, aka Middle Kingdom). The Nguyen insinusted that while Vietnamese were "civilized" (Han people), Cambodians and others were barbarians because they didn't follow confucianism and didn't follow Chinese customs.

The Le dynasty even claimed Vietnamese were descended from Emperor Shennong and quoted Confucian texts to justify extermination of the "barbarian" Cham people and attacking Lan Xang.

The Le and Nguyen dynasties claimed Champa, Ayutthata (Thailand), Java (Indonesia), Lan Xang (Laos), Cambodia, Champa, Malacca (Malaysia), Chiang Mai (thailand), Java (indonesia), ayutthaya (thailand) and Ava (Burma), were "tributary" and "vassal" states to Vietnam. Vietnam attacked many neighboring southeast asian nations, like Melaka (Malaysia), Lan Xang (Laos), Ava, Chiang Mai (Thailand) and Sipsong Banna, and raided Ryukyu (Okinawan) shipping.

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000 - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

The system and language used by the Vietnamese in dealing with foreigners was one of self superiority. Vietnam considered other southeast asians as uncivilized barbarians, that Vietnam was superior and the center of the world because Vietnam used Confucian culture and Vietnam even called itself the "Middle Kingdom" and "Han" people. It viewed its civilizing mission as subduing the barbarians and forcing them to adopt Confucianism and Han (Chinese) culture. Emperor Minh Mang explicitly stated he wanted to "infect" the "barbarians" with Han customs.

Le Loi used the minority Trai people from Thanh Hoa in his army to rebel against the Ming while many of the people who later became "Kinh" from the Red River delta region supported Ming dynasty rule.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

The Le dynasty created the Kinh ethnicity to designate ethnic Vietnamese and classify them seperately from ethnic minorities and foreigners. Kinh means capital, and Kinh people means people of the capital.

Goddess on the Rise: Pilgrimage and Popular Religion in Vietnam - Philip Taylor - Google Books

Human Rights in Asia: A Comparative Legal Study of Twelve Asian ... - Google Books

Historical Dictionary of the Peoples of the Southeast Asian Massif - Jean Michaud - Google Books

Postwar Vietnam: Dynamics of a Transforming Society - Google Books

Culture and Customs of Vietnam - Mark W. McLeod, Thi Dieu Nguyen - Google Books

The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia - James C. Scott - Google Books

The Le dynasty historian Ngo Si Lien claimed that the Vietnamese people were descended from Emperor Shennong.

Blood and Soil: A World History of Genocide and Extermination from Sparta to ... - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

Emperor Minh Mang of the Nguyen Dynasty even considered the Vietnamese to be "Han" people and force the "barbarians" to adopt Han culture.

The Emergence Of Modern Southeast Asia: A New History - Google Books

Empire, Colony, Genocide: Conquest, Occupation, and Subaltern Resistance in ... - Google Books

Water Frontier: Commerce and the Chinese in the Lower Mekong Region, 1750-1880 - Google Books

The Nguyen Emperor Gia Long even referred to Vietnam as "Zhong Guo" (China), inside Vietnam itself, but he did not dare to call Vietnam as Zhong Guo when corresponding to the Qing Emperor.

H-Net Discussion Networks - FW: H-ASIA: Vietnam as "Zhongguo" (2 REPLIES)

Sinocentrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> In adopting Chinese customs, the Vietnamese court also adopted the Chinese world view. In 1805, the Emperor Gia Long referred to Vietnam as trung qu&#7889;c, the "middle kingdom".[9] In 1811, Gia Long proposed a law Hán di h&#7919;u h&#7841;n (&#28450;&#22839;&#26377;&#38480, which means "making clear the border between the Vietnamese and barbarians", referring to the Vietnamese as Han people.[10] Cambodia was regularly called Cao Man Qu&#7889;c (&#39640;&#34875;&#22283, the country of "upper barbarians". In 1815, Gia Long claimed 13 countries as Vietnamese vassals, including Luang Prabang, Vientane, Burma, Tran Ninh Plateau in eastern Laos, and two countries called "Th&#7911;y Xá Qu&#7889;c" and "H&#7887;a Xá Qu&#7889;c", which were actually Malayo-Polynesian Jarai tribes living between Vietnam and Thailand. Mirroring the Chinese model, the Vietnamese court attempted to regulate the presentation of tribute to the Vietnamese court, participation in New Year and emperor's birthday ceremonies, as well as the travel routes and size of tributary missions.[11]
> 
> Vietnam and the Chinese Model, Alexander Barton Woodside, Council on East Asian Studies Harvard, Cambridge (Massachusetts) and London 1988: P18
> 
> Southern Vietnam Under the Reign of Minh Mang (1820-1841): Central Policies and Local Response, Choi Byung Wook , Cornell University Southeast Asia Program Publications 2004: P136
> 
> Vietnam and the Chinese Model, Alexander Barton Woodside, Council on East Asian Studies Harvard, Cambridge (Massachusetts) and London 1988: P236-237



Vietnam's education system brainwashes its children into believing ultranationalist fiction. "Kinh" people did not exist before the Le dynasty.

Le Loi used the "barbarian" minority Trai people from Thanh Hoa in his army to rebel against the Ming while many of the people who later became "Kinh" from the Red River delta region supported Ming dynasty rule and considered themselves Chinese.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

The Le dynasty created the Kinh ethnicity to designate ethnic Vietnamese and classify them seperately from ethnic minorities and foreigners. Kinh means capital, and Kinh people means people of the capital.

Goddess on the Rise: Pilgrimage and Popular Religion in Vietnam - Philip Taylor - Google Books

Human Rights in Asia: A Comparative Legal Study of Twelve Asian ... - Google Books

Historical Dictionary of the Peoples of the Southeast Asian Massif - Jean Michaud - Google Books

Postwar Vietnam: Dynamics of a Transforming Society - Google Books

Culture and Customs of Vietnam - Mark W. McLeod, Thi Dieu Nguyen - Google Books

The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia - James C. Scott - Google Books

The ancient Van Lang and Au Lac Kingdoms which Vietnamese nationalists (and the Vietnamese ultranationalist education system) claim as Vietnamese, were in fact Daic (Tai). The Hung Kings were Tai and not Vietnamese (austroasiatic)

Arts of Asia - Google Books

Textiles of the Daic Peoples of Vietnam - Michael C. Howard, Kim Be Howard - Google Books

Textiles of the Daic Peoples of Vietnam - Michael C. Howard, Kim Be Howard - Google Books

Textiles of the Daic Peoples of Vietnam - Michael C. Howard, Kim Be Howard - Google Books

Arts of Asia - Google Books

The ancestors of Vietnamese originate from the Red River Delta, and the Daic (Tai) rulers of Au Lac conquered the Red River Delta and ruled over the Vietnamese as their masters.

Arts of Asia - Google Books

Vietnam wanted to force all other southeast asians into tributary status and attacked Lan Xang, Ava, Champa, etc. and claimed they were all "tributary" to Vietnam. 

Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000 - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000 - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

Vietnam even claimed Ryukyu Kingdom as a tributary. Anyone who knows where Ryukyu is in a map, knows that this is flat out ridiculous

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Anything which contradicting Confucianism, like the matrilineal culture of the Cham people, was denounced by the Vietnamese as "barbarian", savage, uncivilized.

Law and the Chinese in Southeast Asia - Google Books

The Le forced the entire state to abide by Confucianism

Confucianism and Democratization in East Asia - Doh Chull Shin, To-ch»Ol Sin - Google Books

Religions of the World, Second Edition: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of ... - Google Books

Vietnamese traditional culture also believes male is dominant over the female, contrary to the claims that Vietnamese women are "liberated", the Le Emperor wrote a poem saying women are inferior.

The Flaming Womb: Repositioning Women in Early Modern Southeast Asia - Barbara Watson Andaya - Google Books

Vietnam, which was patriarchial and patrilineal, was disgusted by Champa's matrilineal culture in which women were granted more rights.

Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000 - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

Law and the Chinese in Southeast Asia - Google Books

Champa and the Archaeology of M&#7929; S¡n (Vietnam) - Google Books

Encyclopaedia of the South East Asian Ethnography - Google Books

Societies, Networks, and Transitions: Volume I: A Global History: A Global ... - Craig A. Lockard - Google Books

Vietnam does not even have a consistent name for itself. It called itself Dai Viet, Ho dynasty wanted to change it to Dai Ngu, then the Nguyen dynasty called itself Trung Quoc and referred to its people as Han, then Nguyen wanted to change the name to Nam Viet but the Qing Eperor forced them to change it to Vietnam, and then they called themselves Dai Nam. The concept of "Kinh" ethnicity was invented late, by the Le dynasty, which itself was mainly supported by the "barbarian" Trai people.

Vietnam and the Chinese Model: A Comparative Study of Vietnamese and Chinese ... - Alexander Woodside - Google Books

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## EastSea

*Vietnam History.*

*The early days*
Recent archaeological finds suggest that the earliest human habitation of northern Vietnam was about 500, 000 years ago. Neolithic cultures were romping around the same area just 10, 000 years ago and engaged in primitive agriculture as early as 7000 BC. The sophisticated Bronze Age Dong Son culture, which is famous for its drums, emerged sometime around the 3rd century BC.
From the 1st to 6th centuries AD, southern Vietnam was part of the Indianised Cambodian kingdom of Funan &#8211; famous for its refined art and architecture. Known as Nokor Phnom to the Khmers, this kingdom was centred on the walled city of Angkor Borei, near modern-day Takeo. The Funanese constructed an elaborate system of canals both for transportation and the irrigation of rice. The principal port city of Funan was Oc-Eo in the Mekong Delta and archaeological excavations here tell us of contact between Funan and China, Indonesia, Persia and even the Mediterranean.
The Hindu kingdom of Champa emerged around present-day Danang in the late 2nd century AD. Like Funan, it adopted Sanskrit as a sacred language and borrowed heavily from Indian art and culture. By the 8th century Champa had expanded southward to include what is now Nha Trang and Phan Rang. The Cham were a feisty bunch who conducted raids along the entire coast of Indochina, and thus found themselves in a perpetual state of war with the Vietnamese to the north and the Khmers to the south. Ultimately this cost them their kingdom, as they found themselves squeezed between two great powers. Check out some brilliant sculptures in the Museum of Cham Sculpture in Danang.
1000 Years Of Chinese Domination
The Chinese conquered the Red River Delta in the 2nd century BC. In the following centuries, large numbers of Chinese settlers, officials and scholars moved south to impose a centralised state system on the Vietnamese.
Needless to say, local rulers weren&#8217;t very happy about this and in the most famous act of resistance, in AD 40, the Trung Sisters (Hai Ba Trung) rallied the people, raised an army and led a revolt that sent the Chinese governor fleeing. The sisters proclaimed themselves queens of an independent Vietnam. In AD 43 the Chinese counterattacked and, rather than suffer the ignominy of surrender, the Trung Sisters threw themselves into the Hat Giang River. There were numerous small-scale rebellions against Chinese rule &#8211; which was characterised by tyranny, forced labour and insatiable demands for tribute &#8211; from the 3rd to 6th centuries, but all were crushed.
During this era, Vietnam was a key port of call on the sea route between China and India. The Chinese introduced Confucianism, Taoism and Mahayana Buddhism to Vietnam, while the Indians brought Theravada Buddhism. Monks carried with them the scientific and medical knowledge of these two great civilisations and Vietnam was soon producing its own great doctors, botanists and scholars.
The early Vietnamese learned much from the Chinese, including the construction of dikes and irrigation works. These innovations helped make rice the &#8216;staff of life&#8217;, and paddy agriculture remains the foundation of the Vietnamese way of life to this day. As food became more plentiful the population expanded, forcing the Vietnamese to seek new lands. The ominous Truong Son Mountains prevented westward expansion, so the Vietnamese headed south.
^ Back to top


Read more: History of Vietnam - Lonely Planet Travel Information

*Liberation from China*

In the early 10th century the Tang dynasty in China collapsed. The Vietnamese seized the initiative and launched a long overdue revolt against Chinese rule in Vietnam. In 938 AD popular patriot Ngo Quyen finally vanquished the Chinese armies at a battle on the Bach Dang River, ending 1000 years of Chinese rule. However, it was not the last time the Vietnamese would tussle with their mighty northern neighbour.
From the 11th to 13th centuries, Vietnamese independence was consolidated under the enlightened emperors of the Ly dynasty, founded by Ly Thai To. During the Ly dynasty, many enemies launched attacks on Vietnam, among them the Chinese, the Khmer and the Cham but all were repelled. Meanwhile, the Vietnamese continued their expansion southwards and slowly but surely began to consolidate control of the Cham kingdom.
Mongol warrior Kublai Khan completed his conquest of China in the mid-13th century. For his next trick, he planned to attack Champa and demanded the right to cross Vietnamese territory. The Vietnamese refused, but the Mongol hordes &#8211; all 500, 000 of them &#8211; pushed ahead, seemingly invulnerable. However, they met their match in the legendary general Tran Hung Dao; he defeated them in the battle of Bach Dang River, one of the most celebrated scalps among many the Vietnamese have taken.


Read more: http://www.lonelyplanet.com/vietnam/history#ixzz2iamYPRbT

*China bites back*

The Chinese seized control of Vietnam again in the early 15th century, carting off the national archives and some of the country&#8217;s intellectuals to China &#8211; an irreparable loss to Vietnamese civilisation. The Chinese controlled much of the country from 1407, imposing a regime of heavy taxation and slave labour. The poet Nguyen Trai (1380&#8211;1442) wrote of this period:
Were the water of the Eastern Sea to be exhausted, the stain of their ignominy could not be washed away; all the bamboo of the Southern Mountains would not suffice to provide the paper for recording all their crimes.


Read more: http://www.lonelyplanet.com/vietnam/history#ixzz2iamq0fTM

*Le Loi enters the scene*

In 1418 wealthy philanthropist Le Loi sparked the Lam Son Uprising, travelling the countryside to rally the people against the Chinese. Upon victory in 1428, Le Loi declared himself Emperor Le Thai To, the first in the long line of the Le dynasty. To this day, Le Loi is riding high in the Top Ten of the country&#8217;s all-time national heroes.
Following Le Loi&#8217;s victory over the Chinese, Nguyen Trai, a scholar and Le Loi&#8217;s companion in arms, wrote his infamous Great Proclamation (Binh Ngo Dai Cao). Guaranteed to fan the flames of nationalism almost six centuries later, it articulated Vietnam&#8217;s fierce spirit of independence:
Our people long ago established Vietnam as an independent nation with its own civilisation. We have our own mountains and our own rivers, our own customs and traditions, and these are different from those of the foreign country to the north&#8230;We have sometimes been weak and sometimes powerful, but at no time have we suffered from a lack of heroes.
Le Loi and his successors launched a campaign to take over Cham lands to the south, wiping the kingdom of Champa from the map, and parts of eastern Laos were forced to kowtow to the might of the Vietnamese.


Read more: http://www.lonelyplanet.com/vietnam/history#ixzz2ianAFdq4


----------



## EastSea

*The coming of the Europeans*

The first Portuguese sailors came ashore at Danang in 1516 and were soon followed by a proselytising party of Dominican missionaries. During the following decades the Portuguese began to trade with Vietnam, setting up a commercial colony alongside those of the Japanese and Chinese at Faifo (present-day Hoi An). The Catholic Church eventually had a greater impact on Vietnam than on any country in Asia except the Philippines (which was ruled by the Spanish for 400 years).


Read more: History of Vietnam - Lonely Planet Travel Information


----------



## Wholegrain

It turns out Vietnamese Kinh are not even native to northern Vietnam. The native people of northern Vietnam were originally Daic (Tai), like the Lac Viet and Au Viet. Kinh people are descended from Mon-Khmer migrants from the center of southeast asia.

Southern China and Northern Vietnam were inhabited by Daic (Tai) peoples like the Zhuang, not Vietnamese Kinh.

http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/B09.pdf

Dermatoglyph Groups Kinh Vietnamese to Mon-Khmer
Hui Lĭ & Shangling Pan & Michael Donnelly & Dinhbinh Tran & Zhendong Qin & Yifan Zhang & Xu Cheng & Ruixing Yin & Weixiong Lin & Vantung Hoang & Vanlinh Pham & Ji Qian & Li Jin
Received: 19 April 2007 / Accepted: 15 June 2007 / Published online: 7 August 2007
# Springer Science + Business Media B.V. 2007



> According to the related historical records, the population history of the Kinh, which we extrapolated also, conforms to the pattern of demic diffusion. In North Vietnam, the early inhabitant is the Luo-Yue of Daic family. In the Han dynasty, there was a war between the Chinese central government and the Southern Yue government, which resulted in heavy political pressure on the Yue (Daic) population, which lasted into Wu dynasty of the Three States Period. A large number of Daic populations including the Luo-Yue moved westwards to Guizhou, west Guangxi, Laos, and as far as north Thailand. It was nearly empty along Tonkin Bay, including North Vietnam and east Guangxi. In the following, the Jing dynasty and the Southern-Northern States Period, as the northern nomads invaded central China, the Chinese government ignored Tonkin Bay and left it for the growing Kinh population. Since then, the Kinh appeared in the records of north Vietnam. After a long time of development in the Sui and Tang dynasties, a country of Kinh people was founded during the China’s civil strife in the late Tang dynasty.

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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam held a supremacist, racist, and condescending view of foreigners, Vietnam viewed all of its neighbors as barbarians, and the Nguyen dynasty Emperors even referred to Vietnamese people as "Han" (Chinese), and Vietnam as "Zhong guo" (trung quoc, aka Middle Kingdom). The Nguyen insinusted that while Vietnamese were "civilized" (Han people), Cambodians and others were barbarians because they didn't follow confucianism and didn't follow Chinese customs.
> 
> The Le dynasty even claimed Vietnamese were descended from Emperor Shennong and quoted Confucian texts to justify extermination of the "barbarian" Cham people and attacking Lan Xang.
> 
> The Le and Nguyen dynasties claimed Champa, Ayutthata (Thailand), Java (Indonesia), Lan Xang (Laos), Cambodia, Champa, Malacca (Malaysia), Chiang Mai (thailand), Java (indonesia), ayutthaya (thailand) and Ava (Burma), were "tributary" and "vassal" states to Vietnam. Vietnam attacked many neighboring southeast asian nations, like Melaka (Malaysia), Lan Xang (Laos), Ava, Chiang Mai (Thailand) and Sipsong Banna, and raided Ryukyu (Okinawan) shipping.
> 
> Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books
> 
> Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books
> 
> Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000 - Ben Kiernan - Google Books
> 
> The system and language used by the Vietnamese in dealing with foreigners was one of self superiority. Vietnam considered other southeast asians as uncivilized barbarians, that Vietnam was superior and the center of the world because Vietnam used Confucian culture and Vietnam even called itself the "Middle Kingdom" and "Han" people. It viewed its civilizing mission as subduing the barbarians and forcing them to adopt Confucianism and Han (Chinese) culture. Emperor Minh Mang explicitly stated he wanted to "infect" the "barbarians" with Han customs.
> 
> Le Loi used the minority Trai people from Thanh Hoa in his army to rebel against the Ming while many of the people who later became "Kinh" from the Red River delta region supported Ming dynasty rule.
> 
> The Nguyen Emperor Gia Long even referred to Vietnam as "Zhong Guo" (China), inside Vietnam itself, but he did not dare to call Vietnam as Zhong Guo when corresponding to the Qing Emperor.
> Arts of Asia - Google Books
> 
> Vietnam wanted to force all other southeast asians into tributary status and attacked Lan Xang, Ava, Champa, etc. and claimed they were all "tributary" to Vietnam.
> 
> Vietnam even claimed Ryukyu Kingdom as a tributary. Anyone who knows where Ryukyu is in a map, knows that this is flat out ridiculous
> 
> Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books
> Vietnam and the Chinese Model: A Comparative Study of Vietnamese and Chinese ... - Alexander Woodside - Google Books


You are funny, keep repeating the same posts, over and over again. Pls listen: don´t blame Vietnam for what it did. Blame rather China because we just copied from you.  


Wholegrain said:


> It turns out Vietnamese Kinh are not even native to northern Vietnam. The native people of northern Vietnam were originally Daic (Tai), like the Lac Viet and Au Viet. Kinh people are descended from Mon-Khmer migrants from the center of southeast asia.
> 
> Southern China and Northern Vietnam were inhabited by Daic (Tai) peoples like the Zhuang, not Vietnamese Kinh.
> 
> http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/B09.pdf
> 
> Dermatoglyph Groups Kinh Vietnamese to Mon-Khmer
> Hui Lĭ & Shangling Pan & Michael Donnelly & Dinhbinh Tran & Zhendong Qin & Yifan Zhang & Xu Cheng & Ruixing Yin & Weixiong Lin & Vantung Hoang & Vanlinh Pham & Ji Qian & Li Jin
> Received: 19 April 2007 / Accepted: 15 June 2007 / Published online: 7 August 2007
> # Springer Science + Business Media B.V. 2007


and ancestors of Chinese came from India. 

_http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-12-12/india/28065921_1_asians-dravidian-ancestors_
_BANGALORE: The ancestors of most Asian populations, including the Chinese and southeast Asians, came from India, a new genetic study across 10 countries has revealed. The study found that humans first migrated to the Indian subcontinent from Africa some 100,000 years ago and then spread to other parts of Asia._


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> It turns out Vietnamese Kinh are not even native to northern Vietnam. The native people of northern Vietnam were originally Daic (Tai), like the Lac Viet and Au Viet. Kinh people are descended from Mon-Khmer migrants from the center of southeast asia.
> 
> Southern China and Northern Vietnam were inhabited by Daic (Tai) peoples like the Zhuang, not Vietnamese Kinh.
> 
> http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/B09.pdf
> 
> Dermatoglyph Groups Kinh Vietnamese to Mon-Khmer
> Hui Lĭ & Shangling Pan & Michael Donnelly & Dinhbinh Tran & Zhendong Qin & Yifan Zhang & Xu Cheng & Ruixing Yin & Weixiong Lin & Vantung Hoang & Vanlinh Pham & Ji Qian & Li Jin
> Received: 19 April 2007 / Accepted: 15 June 2007 / Published online: 7 August 2007
> # Springer Science + Business Media B.V. 2007



You copied and pst too much.

Vietnamese, Kinh people were native people in South East Asia, descended from Mon-Khmer migrants from the center of southeast asia to South China and and to North Vietnam in ancient time, when Thai people and laotiens were also living in South China.

The ancient Vietnamese kings of the Hồng Bàng period, collectively known as the Hùng Vương, ruled the country until 258 BC and consisted of 18 lines of kings. 

Văn Lang is country first thought to have been a matriarchal society, similar to many other matriarchal societies common in Southeast Asia and in the Pacific Islands at the time.

Following our history book, written in Han Ji, North point of Van Lang state reached to Dongding lake in China now. 

"Au Lac" was name of our country before invasion of Zhao Tuo in to Vietnam. Au Lac is country of Kinh people, because the ancient word "Lac" or "Nac" is got the meaning "Water" or "Country". The word "Nac" is still speak in Thanh-Nhe-Tinh provices in Middle area Vietnam now.

Ancient name of country Vietnam was "Jiao Zhi" (交趾) ís recorded by Historian used Han Ji . The name drives from our ancient word of Kinh people: "Kẻ Chợ". This word has a meaning a "Human" living nearby "Market". 

Đông Sơn have yielded metal weapons and tools from this age. Most famous of these artifacts are large bronze drums, probably made for ceremonial purposes, with sophisticated engravings on the surface, depicting life scenes with warriors, boats, houses, birds and animals in concentric circles around a radiating sun at the center. Many legends from this period offer a glimpse into the life of the people. The Legend of the Rice Cakes is about a prince who won a culinary contest; he then wins the throne because his creations, the rice cakes, reflect his deep understanding of the land's vital economy: rice farming.

Daic (Tai) peoples (including Tay, Nung, Dao, Laotian ...) immigrated in to South East Asia too late. In fact South East Asia mainland is belong to native land of Mon, Khmer, Champa and Kinh people until 1431AC.


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> You copied and pst too much.
> 
> Vietnamese, Kinh people were native people in South East Asia, descended from Mon-Khmer migrants from the center of southeast asia to South China and and to North Vietnam in ancient time, when Thai people and laotiens were also living in South China.
> 
> The ancient Vietnamese kings of the Hồng Bàng period, collectively known as the Hùng Vương, ruled the country until 258 BC and consisted of 18 lines of kings.
> 
> Văn Lang is country first thought to have been a matriarchal society, similar to many other matriarchal societies common in Southeast Asia and in the Pacific Islands at the time.
> 
> Following our history book, written in Han Ji, North point of Van Lang state reached to Dongding lake in China now.
> 
> "Au Lac" was name of our country before invasion of Zhao Tuo in to Vietnam. Au Lac is country of Kinh people, because the ancient word "Lac" or "Nac" is got the meaning "Water" or "Country". The word "Nac" is still speak in Thanh-Nhe-Tinh provices in Middle area Vietnam now.
> 
> Ancient name of country Vietnam was "Jiao Zhi" (交趾) ís recorded by Historian used Han Ji . The name drives from our ancient word of Kinh people: "Kẻ Chợ". This word has a meaning a "Human" living nearby "Market".
> 
> Đông Sơn have yielded metal weapons and tools from this age. Most famous of these artifacts are large bronze drums, probably made for ceremonial purposes, with sophisticated engravings on the surface, depicting life scenes with warriors, boats, houses, birds and animals in concentric circles around a radiating sun at the center. Many legends from this period offer a glimpse into the life of the people. The Legend of the Rice Cakes is about a prince who won a culinary contest; he then wins the throne because his creations, the rice cakes, reflect his deep understanding of the land's vital economy: rice farming.
> 
> Daic (Tai) peoples (including Tay, Nung, Dao, Laotian ...) immigrated in to South East Asia too late. In fact South East Asia mainland is belong to native land of Mon, Khmer, Champa and Kinh people until 1431AC.



Van Lang, Hung Kings, Au Lac and Dong Son were all Daic (Tai) and not Kinh. Sources are in my earlier post here.

History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

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## Rye

Vietnamese people have been claiming themselves to be descendants of the Lạc Việt people since ancient time, before archeological discovery of bronze drums, before the rise of modern nationalism and disputes over cultural artifacts. There was no glory attached to the Lạc Việt people in the past, yet Vietnamese still call themselves the descendants of these people.

In the past few decades, with the discovery of bronze drums and the cultural dispute ensued, several non-Viet nationalists have started claiming that Vietnamese are not descendants of the Lạc Việt/Luoyue. Tai people were. Well I am not aware of any Zhuang tradition of claiming to be descendants of Luoyue people, much lest other Tai(s). Rather, this identity has been attached to the Zhuang in the recent cultural dispute of the region.

But the Lạc Việt people mostly occupied the Red River delta region of Northern Vietnam, which is traditionally a Viet/Kinh area, not a Tai area. So how could these non-Viet nationalists explain that the Lạc Việt were Tai?

Well, they did this by claiming that the Red River delta was Tai territory in the ancient time. Vietnamese were invaders from the south who displaced the Tai indigenous of the red river delta.

Sounds intriguing. But let's set aside the fact there is absolutely no record of such invasion, either in historical annals or in legends of the Tai minorities, there is one evidence that renders this speculated invasion bullshit.

The Zhuang call Vietnamese "Gao/Gaew people". So do many other Tai ethnicities. Where does the word Gaew come from? Every historian knows it comes from the word Giao Chỉ (Jiaozhi), which was the name of Northern Vietnam under the Han dynasty.

What does this tell you? The Zhuang themselves knew Vietnamese were the inhabitants of Giao Chỉ (Northern Vietnam), and the fact that they used this word to refer to Vietnamese but not themselves mean that they were not part of Jiaozhi.

Giao chỉ/Jiaozhi was where Lạc Việt people primarily dwelled, where bronze drums were found in high concentration. Vietnamese are descendants of Jiaozhi people --> Vietnamese are descendants of the Lạc Việt people and also owner of Dongson culture.

The attempt of non-Viet nationalists to steal Vietnamese identity and culture is really pathetic.

Speaking of vocabularies. Mẹ means mother in Vietnamese. Nàng means a young girl, a lady in Vietnamese. Kun refers to a leader in Muong language. Lang means a man in Vietnamese. Kun lang refers to a prince or the eldest son of a leader in Muong language. All these vocabularies can sound similar to Tai but they also sound similar to Vietnamese.

Further more, the word Lạc surely has its origin within Vietnamese. Lạc Việt people were known as lowland dwellers whose habitats had many water bodies. The word lạc has etymology from Vietnamese nác, which means water. In modern day, Vietnamese still use the word "water" to refer to their nation and country. Water Viet would mean the country of Viet in Vietnamese language today. It makes perfect sense that they are descendants of the Lạc Việt people.

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## Rye

Austro-asiatic speakers originated from southern Sichuan and they spread to Southeast Asia through major riverways. In Southeast Asia, they intermixed with the local Melanesian people and gave birth to the Mon and Cambodian today. As proof of this, both Mon and Cambodian people have been found to have a percentage of genes similar to Dravidians of India.

As proof of their once presence in Southern China, Austro-asiatic vocabularies have been found in 24% of Old Chinese. The old name of Yangtze river, 江, which has now become a common word for rivers in Southern China, has Austro-asiatic origin. It's theorized that the Chinese met some Austro-asiatic speaking group in the Middle Yangtze and borrowed this word from them. Many many more cognates between proto-Austro-asiatic and proto-Sino-Tibetan and proto-Altaic have been found, suggesting that the ancient speakers of Austro-asiatic were in contact with Altaic speakers and Sino-Tibetan speakers. This contact couldn't have been in Southeast Asia but somewhere in Central and Southern China. I can provide documents for these if requested.

In ancient China, there were a collective of tribes called the Pu tribes who dwelled along the Yangtze. Chinese scholars consider these tribes to be Austro-asiatic speakers, though probably not all of them spoke Austro-asiatic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blang_people

The Blang [Bulang] language belongs to the Palaung-Wa branch of the Mon–Khmer family of languages.

Chinese ethnographers identify the Blang as descendants of an ancient tribe known as the "Pu" (濮), who lived in the Lancang river valley during ancient times. It is believed that these people were one branch of a number of peoples that were collectively known to the ancient Chinese as the Bǎipú (百濮, literally "Hundred Pu").

http://nomad-sally.blogspot.com/2011/11/bulang-people-of-sw-china.html

There are 36,500 Bulang living in Xishuangbanna. They live principally in Bulangshan, Xiding, Mengman, Daluo, Jinghong, Menghai and Mengla.

Their ancestors are the Ancient Pu people. They are idigenous people of Hunan. After a long term national movement of tribal fusion, one part of the Pu people settled in Xishuangbanna, Simao and Lincang areas and developed into today's Bulang.

http://www.a3guo.com/en/china/History/Altera/south.html
Pu 濮
“A term referring to Non-Chinese tribes settling along the course of the Yangtse River during the Zhou period 周. When the feudal state of Chu 楚 gradually won power and enlarged its territory, the Pu withdrew to the mountainous areas in the south. The Pu are thought to have contributed to the indigenous culture of the Chu state that is somewhat different the proper Chinese culture in the Yellow River plain."

In Tan Qixiang's Historical Atlas of China the Pu lived in the middle valley of the Yangzi (at the border of Hubei and Sichuan) in Shang and Western Zhou times. Then the Spring and Autumn map shows a Baipu region in modern Hunan (south west of Chu), and then there is an indication of a Pu tribe in the Warring States map in south Sichuan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_people

The "Pu" may be relevant to an ancient ethnic group Pu (Chinese: 濮). In the legends of the northern Yi, the Yi people conquered Pu and its territory in the northeastern part of the modern Liangshan (Southern Sichuan).

Most Yi believe they have the same ancestor, ꀉꁌꅋꃅ or ꀉꁌꐧꃅ (Axpu Ddutmu or Axpu Jjutmu). It is said that Apu Dumu married three wives and had six sons: each of the wives bore two sons. In the legend, the oldest two sons leading their tribes conquered other aborigines of Yunnan and began to reside in most territory of Yunnan. The youngest two sons led their tribes eastwards and were defeated by Han, before finally making western Guizhou their home and creating the largest quantity of Yi script documents. *The other two sons led their tribes across the Jinsha River and dwelled in Liangshan. This group had close intermarriage with the local ꁍ* (Pup) [Pu?].

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-GZNY200701018.htm

"The author of this paper opines that the Mon-Khmer-speaking groups originates from southern,especially southwestern China.These groups were closely related with the Pu recorded in ancient Chinese chronicles.It should be emphasized,however,that *most of these groups had emigrated into mainland Southeast Asia before the Pu was recorded in Chinese chronicles*.Of today's Mon-Khmer-speaking groups *only those stretching in northern Mainland Southeast Asia and southwestern China,e.g.the northern sub-groups of Mon-Khmer-speaking groups are the lineal descendants of the Pu mentioned in ancient Chinese chronicles*."

http://www.sealang.net/archives/mks/pdf/35:183-187.pdf





Changjiang (Trường Giang), literally "long river", is another name of the Yangtze river.

The Chinese record that Pu lived in the Yangtze valley is consistent with the linguistic theory that Austro-asiatic people originated from an area near the Middle Yangtze.

Perhaps it's relevant to mention here that Vietnamese have a legend about a war with the Shang invaders. When scholars assumed that ancestors of the Vietnamese located in present-day Northern Vietnam, this legend made no sense because the Shang couldn't have reached all the way to Northern Vietnam. But since some ancient Austro-asiatic-speaking tribes did have contact with the Shang, this legend makes sense. After the conflicts with the Shang, one branch of AA-speakers might have migrated down to Northern Vietnam and became _one _of the ancestors of Vietnamese. Another legend of Vietnamese also mentions that their forefather came from Dongting lake of Hunan, which also in the same area we're speaking of.

Independent sources all point to similar story. Linguistics. Chinese records of Pu people in the Shang period. Northern Yi legend about intermarrying with the Pu in southern Sichuan. Vietnamese legend about Shang invaders.

All these suggested that original AA-speakers inhabited an area in Southwest China, probably in Sichuan. From here one branch followed the Brahmaputra river and migrated into Northeast India and became ancestor of the Mundari-speakers after intermarrying with Indian locals. Another branch followed the Irrawaddy and Mekong river to migrate into Southeast Asia and became ancestor of the Mon and Khmer. Another followed the Yangtze river eastward to Hunan and this group later came into contact with the Shang and became known as the Pu in ancient China.






Looking at the map, the Northern Yi legend about conquering and intermarrying with the Pu people in southern Sichuan make total sense because southern Sichuan is where all these rivers meet and would have been the hub of many AA-speaking tribes.


But Vietnamese were not known as Pu. They were known as Yue.

This could be explained as followed:

The Pu came into contact with the Chinese (Shang) earlier than the Yue did. By Spring and Autumn period, most Pu had already been conquered and absorbed into the Chinese state, the few Pu tribes left withdrew to mountainous area.

At the same time the Pu tribes were disappearing, the Chinese came into increasing contact with the Yue. By the Han dynasty, the Yue were the only major barbarian type left. It was easier to just clump Vietnamese with the Yue who still existed than with the Pu who had already disappeared (most of them).

The Vietnamese themselves were not entirely Pu. Pu were just one of their ancestors. Several tribes from Southern China probably met in Northern Vietnam, intermarried and created the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese legend itself also indicated that Vietnamese descended from the union of two types of people, one from the highland (represented by the fairy) and one from the coast (represented by the dragon).

Since the Pu came into contact with Chinese earlier and were more absorbed into Chinese, it explains why more Austro-asiatic vocabularies and reflexes were found in Old Chinese. It also explains why there are so few AA-speakers left in Southern China today. They were absorbed.

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## Rye

Austro-asiatic/Mon-Khmer influence on Old Chinese

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp202_old_sinitic_roots.pdf







http://books.google.com/books?id=nI...ScreenShot2013-11-04at93936PM_zps46c3c1f7.png









































Just a few examples. There are much more in that book alone and in the works of other linguists.


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## Rye

Should they have a record of how, when and where Viets replaced Tais in Northern Vietnam if Viets weren't there in the first place? 
I doubt that the Chinese totally ignored what happened in Giao Chi



. Such a damn large population who took over the area should have prompted more detailed descriptions of who they were, where they were from, and their movements



or some kinds of recorded history involving them in Khmer, Champa, Tai and Chinese history



"Kinh" means city or town, a word to distinguish them from the people who live in the mountains as "Thượng". If it had been Tai who interacted with Chinese in the Tonkin area many centuries before Viets "took over", remember after Han Chinese conquered the area, they attempted to destroy the local culture and "Han-ized" the area, then the Tai should have been already strongly influenced by Sino culture as the result, but they weren't! and Viets wouldn't have absorbed that much Han-Viet vocabulary in such a short time.

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp017_yue.pdf
"However, as argued above, *raised dwellings appear to be a response to specific 
environmental conditions and are constructed by many different ethnic groups 
living in southwestern China, Southeast Asia, and Polynesia today*. As a trait, they 
serve better to distinguish northern Han Chinese houses from Southeast Asian. It 
is well known that in traditional Southeast Asian villages today, Chinese merchants 
usually live in ground level houses, often made of poured concrete, whereas the 
local people prefer raised houses constructed from wood and bamboo."

Another cultural trait frequently cited as diagnostic of both Yue and Tai culture is 
skill in metallurgy, especially illustrated in the production of bronze, mushroom- 
shaped drums.* Ethnographically, however, these drums are associated today with 
not only Tai speakers, but Miao (Miao-Yao, a branch of Sino-Tibetan), Karens (a 
branch of Sino-Tibetan) and others. The distribution of these drums is very wide - 
they are found in Yunnan, Guizhou, Guangxi, Guangdong, Vietnam, northern 
Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and even out into the Malayo-Ponesian 
archipelago* (Smith and Watson 1979, Appendix: 495-507). *Historically, the drums 
span the mid-first millennium B.C. up to the 14th century A.D. As a marker of Tai 
ethnicity, they are, at best, problematic. *

Finally, Jiang and Li suggest characteristics such as wet rice agriculture and a 
highly developed water technology (a common saying among Chinese is that Tai 
love water and build their villages along river banks). *This statement is so 
generalized as to be practically meaningless. *

In the end, when we review the nature of the suggested Tai cultural 
characteristics which are supposed to link them with the Hundred Yue, it would 
appear that they serve more as markers distinguishing Southeast Asian cultures
from Han Chinese, and more specifically,* lowland Southeast Asian cultures -- 
cultures which would include not only Tai speaking groups, but Mon and 
Austronesian speakers as well."*


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## Rye

On top of that there are still Austro-asiatic speaking tribes dwelling in Southern China today. 

Austro-asiatic speakers in China.



















































There are very few or no bronze drum at all found in Guangdong and Fujian of China even though 2500 years ago, Guangdong and Fujian were still uninvaded by the Han. Most bronze drums are found in Southwest China - Yunnan, Guangxi, Guizhou...not Southeast in China. 

The association of bronze drums to all Yue people are therefore problematic because many Yue tribes lived in Fujian, Guangdong - the coastal area of China and bronze drums have not been found here.

Only some Yue groups produced bronze drums. There were the Luoyue of Northern Vietnam and the Dianyue of Yunnan. Nanyue and Minyue did not produce bronze drums.

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## Viet

Rye, are you a Viet? I wonder about your good historic knowlegde.


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## Wholegrain

Poor dumb monkey @EastSea

China calls on Japan to respect historical facts

Tokyo is a PLACE NAME. All place names in Vietnam, China, Korea, and Japan are writen with the same characters, they have nothing to do with grammatical structure of the language like whether adjectives or nouns go first, or whether the language uses the same verbs, pronouns and regular nouns. Vietnamese Chu Nom will write place names like Guangdong 廣東 the same way, but the pronouns, word order and verbs are all different.

I can add Japanese to the list

mandarin: ni hao, wo shi guangdong ren 你好、我是廣東人
cantonese: nei ho, ngoh si gwong dung yan. 你好、我是廣東人
Minnan: lí hó, góa sī Kńg-tang lâng 你好、我是廣東人
hakka: ngi ho, ngai si Kóng tûng ngìn 你好、我是廣東人

vietnamese:Xin chào, Tôi là Người Quảng Đông. 嗔嘲, 晬罗



廣東

Japanese: Konnichiwa, watashi ha kanton jin desu こんにちは, 私は広東人です


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Poor dumb monkey @EastSea
> 
> China calls on Japan to respect historical facts
> 
> Tokyo is a PLACE NAME. All place names in Vietnam, China, Korea, and Japan are writen with the same characters, they have nothing to do with grammatical structure of the language like whether adjectives or nouns go first, or whether the language uses the same verbs, pronouns and regular nouns. Vietnamese Chu Nom will write place names like Guangdong 廣東 the same way, but the pronouns, word order and verbs are all different.
> 
> I can add Japanese to the list
> 
> mandarin: ni hao, wo shi guangdong ren 你好、我是廣東人
> cantonese: nei ho, ngoh si gwong dung yan. 你好、我是廣東人
> Minnan: lí hó, góa sī Kńg-tang lâng 你好、我是廣東人
> hakka: ngi ho, ngai si Kóng tûng ngìn 你好、我是廣東人
> 
> vietnamese:Xin chào, Tôi là Người Quảng Đông. 嗔嘲, 晬罗
> 
> 
> 
> 廣東
> 
> Japanese: Konnichiwa, watashi ha kanton jin desu こんにちは, 私は広東人です



*Language at first* is the human capacity for talking with mouth and tongue and using the sounds in complex systems to communication in his social community, in one tribe or in one ethnic group.

When peoples don't understand what other people is just spoken, he can say : are you foreigner ? if he could speak English !

cantonese say: *nei ho, ngoh si yan.*

Minnan say: *lí hó, góa sī lâng.*

hakka say: *ngi ho, ngai si ngìn.*

Han Chinese are living in North China, don't understand what such people are just talking about. Same as Kinh people say: Xin chào, Tôi là Người; Japanese say: Konnichiwa, watashi ha jin desu.

Understand ? poor chinese monkey.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> *Language at first* is the human capacity for talking with mouth and tongue and using the sounds in complex systems to communication in his social community, in one tribe or in one ethnic group.
> 
> When peoples don't understand what other people is just spoken, he can say : are you foreigner ? if he could speak English !
> 
> cantonese say: *nei ho, ngoh si yan.*
> 
> Minnan say: *lí hó, góa sī lâng.*
> 
> hakka say: *ngi ho, ngai si ngìn.*
> 
> Han Chinese are living in North China, don't understand what such people are just talking about. Same as Kinh people say: Xin chào, Tôi là Người; Japanese say: Konnichiwa, watashi ha jin desu.
> 
> Understand ? poor chinese monkey.



Who told you that everyone in the world must follow this standard to define "language".

There are huge differences between different Japanese dialects and people are hardly understand each others:

私は方言を研究してはいるが、実際農村や漁村で使われている言葉は、聞いてもわからないものが多い。

but they still consider different Japanese dialects are "dialects 方言", not "languages"

日 本では、共通語と方言の違いが相当激しい。これがヨーロッパあたりへ行くと、スペイン語とポルトガル語の違いは、青森県の言葉と福島県の言葉ぐらいの違い しかない。それでもれっきとした二つの国語である。ちょっと聞くとスペイン語とポルトガル語が話せるなんていうのは、何か非常に偉いような気がする。しか し本当は、青森県の言葉と共通語が話せるということは、もっと違った言葉を使い分けることができることなのである。よく日本人は語学が下手だと言われる が、これは大間違いで、日本人のほうが語学の天才かもしれない。
-- 金田一春彦 (Japanese Linguist)

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## INDIC

@Fattyacids this thread is very informative.


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## elis

Austro asiatic are you joking? They all look like the asians


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## Fattyacids

INDIC said:


> @Fattyacids this thread is very informative.



I know 90% what all these are about. The pariah of Han trying to discredit Han by rewriting history, LOL. What's new? Everyone in China knows that, they have big chip on their shoulders. Even Koreans claim Confucius was korean and they invented chinese script, 
They may be able to fool people like Indians and others, but all East Asians know the historical truth. And there's no better person to rebut them than our graduate researcher @Wholegrain.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> *Language at first* is the human capacity for talking with mouth and tongue and using the sounds in complex systems to communication in his social community, in one tribe or in one ethnic group.
> 
> When peoples don't understand what other people is just spoken, he can say : are you foreigner ? if he could speak English !
> 
> cantonese say: *nei ho, ngoh si yan.*
> 
> Minnan say: *lí hó, góa sī lâng.*
> 
> hakka say: *ngi ho, ngai si ngìn.*
> 
> Han Chinese are living in North China, don't understand what such people are just talking about. Same as Kinh people say: Xin chào, Tôi là Người; Japanese say: Konnichiwa, watashi ha jin desu.
> 
> Understand ? poor chinese monkey.



Poor dumb baboon, Cantonese people are not the nanyue natives. Cantonese people call themselves "men of Tang" 唐人 because many of their ancestors were Han from northern China who migrated south during the Tang dynasty. Cantonese language is descended from Old Chinese like Mandarin.

The native Nanyue people were Tai speaking people like Zhuang and not Cantonese.

Cantonese is even closer phonologically to Old and Middle Chinese than Mandarin. Cantonese preserves Old and Middle Chinese finals like k, t, and initials like Ng.

Chinese History: A Manual - Endymion Porter Wilkinson - Google Books

The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books

From Middle Chinese to Modern Cantonese (Part 2).

ERIC - From Middle Chinese to Modern Cantonese (Part 2)., Journal of Chinese Linguistics, 1984

ONLY the Pinghua speakers of Guangxi are more closely related to the Nanyue (Daic Tai peoples) than they are to Han. Everyone else, inclulding Cantonese, are paternally descended from Han.

Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: Pinghua population as an exception of Han Chinese's coherent genetic structure

Pinghua - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tanka are descended from natives

Cooley's anaemia among the tanka of South China

In Taiwan, most Minnan Taiwanese are descended from Han men who moved from mainland and married aborigibal women. The saying is "有唐山公，無唐山媽" (mainland grandfather, no mainland grandmother). The mainland is referred to as "Tang mountain", since Minnan people are descended from Han who moved to Fujian during the Tang dynasty.

We have records of Han families fleeing from northern China to Fujian.

Portrait of a Community: Society, Culture, and the Structures of Kinship in ... - Hugh R. Clark - Google Books

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books



> Y chromosome data show that on average southern Chinese Han have a large paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han (82%). But mtDNA data show that southern Chinese Han have equal maternal contributions from northern Chinese Han (56%) and southern Chinese natives ( 44%) (Table 4A). The high paternal but lower maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han indicate strong sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han over the past two millennia (Wen et al. 2004). A more recent comparison of paternal and maternal data confirmed the sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han (Xue et al. 2008).
> 
> When we consider the admixture proportions of Fujian Han and Guangdong Han, the ancestors of Taiwanese Han, sex-biased admixture is even more evident than in the southern Chinese Han averages. Fujian Han are estimated to have a 100 percent paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han but only a 34 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. Guangdong Han are estimated to have 68 percent paternal but only 1 5 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. The maternal contributions from southern Chinese natives to Fujian and Guangdong Han were estimated as 66 percent and 85 percent (Table 3A), respectively. The extreme sex-biased contributions in Fujian Han and Guangdong Han indicate that the male ancestors of Taiwanese Han frequently intermarried with the female ancestors of southern Chinese natives before they migrated to Taiwan.
> 
> This sex-bias illustrates a significant feature of the Han expansion: many male migrants from northern China married women from local non-Han populations in the south. Therefore, the Han-grandfathers-Indigenous-grandmothers folk saying seems to apply generally to southern China over the past two millenia.



European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages



> Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.



http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI



> The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion. The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.



Only Cantonese and Hakka mtdna (maternal dna inherited from the mother) is native to nanyue. Their parernal DNA (from the father) is Han.

Analysis of matrilineal genetic background differences between Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka--《Journal of Xi'an Jiaotong University(Medical Sciences)》2010年06期

In Han, Vietnamese, Manchu, Mongol, Miao (Hmong), Yao (Mien), and Korean culture, ethnicity is determined by the father. You are your father's ethnic group, not your mother, because all of them are patrilineal and patriarchial cultures. In Vietnam, the Minh Huong are traced through their father's ancestry from China and not their ancestry through their mother's ancestry, which is from Vietnamese women.

Water Frontier: Commerce and the Chinese in the Lower Mekong Region, 1750-1880 - Google Books

Vietnam and the Chinese Model: A Comparative Study of Vietnamese and Chinese ... - Alexander Woodside - Google Books

History Without Borders: The Making of an Asian World Region, 1000-1800 - Geoffrey C. Gunn - Google Books

Nguyá»n Cochinchina: Southern Vietnam in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries - Tana Li - Google Books

Appetites and Aspirations in Vietnam: Food and Drink in the Long Nineteenth ... - Erica J. Peters - Google Books

The Flaming Womb: Repositioning Women in Early Modern Southeast Asia - Barbara Watson Andaya - Google Books

Ethnic Chinese as Southeast Asians - Google Books

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## ChineseTiger1986

I know how Cantonese look, 20% of them look North Chinese, while 10% of them could pass as a Viet, but most of them are a mix between North China and the native people in South China.

Even Germans from South Germany are not pure Germanic, they are a mix of Germanic and Celtic, while those from East Germany might even have a lot of Slavic blood.

Then according to our Viet friends here, the South and East of Germany should declare the independence. This makes no sense at all.

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## eazzy

Question to Vietnamese : What do you thing about that first dynasty, the one which lasted for one or two thousands years I don't remember : Is it just a myth or are you really believing it ?


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## Viet

eazzy said:


> Question to Vietnamese : What do you thing about that *first dynasty*, the one which lasted for one or two thousands years I don't remember : Is it just a myth or are you really believing it ?


Do you mean Hung Kings, period of 2879-258 before Christ?

It is a mix of myth, legend, superstition and hearsay. The problem is it lacks of historical records. Anyway any kid learns that Hung Kings existed in school, and the government declares the 10th day of the 3rd lunar month as public holiday, Hung King Commemoriations (Giỗ tổ Hùng Vương). Interesting, UNESCO granted a certificate recognizing the worship of Hung Kings in Phu Tho as an intangible culture heritage of humanity.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Poor dumb baboon, Cantonese people are not the nanyue natives. Cantonese people call themselves "men of Tang" 唐人 because many of their ancestors were Han from northern China who migrated south during the Tang dynasty. Cantonese language is descended from Old Chinese like Mandarin.



Native NanYue people (cantonese) are call by Kinh people as "Ngô" people, because they said: "我" with sound: "ngộ" similier to sound "Ngô" in Vietnamese.

When Tang Dynasty ís collapsed in China, people escaped from North China to South, they called themselves as Tang_ren, such people were related to other minorities No_Hans, like Turks or Xiongnu descendant, they were Hakka or Hokkien peoples.
T


> he military of the Tang Dynasty was staffed with a large population of *Turkic soldiers*, referred to as *Tujue* in Chinese sources. Tang elites in northern China were familiar with Turkic culture, a factor that contributed to the Tang acceptance of Turkic recruits. The Tang emperor Taizong adopted the title of "Heavenly Kaghan" and promoted a cosmopolitan empire.


*military.Turks in the Tang military - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*




> Cantonese is even closer phonologically to Old and Middle Chinese than Mandarin. Cantonese preserves Old and Middle Chinese finals like k, t, and initials like Ng.



Yoke. Cantonese speak Old and Middle Chinese Mandarin, but Han Chinese whose were creators of original Mandarin language can not understand. What kind is funny story you're telling here ?




> In Taiwan, most Minnan Taiwanese are descended from Han men who moved from mainland and married aborigibal women. The saying is "有唐山公，無唐山媽" (mainland grandfather, no mainland grandmother). The mainland is referred to as "Tang mountain", since Minnan people are descended from Han who moved to Fujian during the Tang dynasty.



Taiwan is another story. From ancient time to around 1700 years AC, Taiwan was independent state.



> We have records of Han families fleeing from northern China to Fujian.



Immigrants to Fujian were first from WuYue.




> Only Cantonese and Hakka mtdna (maternal dna inherited from the mother) is native to nanyue. Their parernal DNA (from the father) is Han.



The paternal DNA of some cantonese (from fathers) is should be a same as North Hans because in ancient time, about 100,000 years ago, some of those humans began to leave Africa, with some people moving to China via South and Southeast Asia. There were Cantonese, MinYue, WuYue and Han people.

read more here. trinicenter.com - Ancient Chinese

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Native NanYue people (cantonese) are call by Kinh people as "Ngô" people, because they said: "我" with sound: "ngộ" similier to sound "Ngô" in Vietnamese.
> 
> When Tang Dynasty ís collapsed in China, people escaped from North China to South, they called themselves as Tang_ren, such people were related to other minorities No_Hans, like Turks or Xiongnu descendant, they were Hakka or Hokkien peoples.
> T
> 
> *military.Turks in the Tang military - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yoke. Cantonese speak Old and Middle Chinese Mandarin, but Han Chinese whose were creators of original Mandarin language can not understand. What kind is funny story you're telling here ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taiwan is another story. From ancient time to around 1700 years AC, Taiwan was independent state.
> 
> 
> 
> Immigrants to Fujian were first from WuYue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The paternal DNA of some cantonese (from fathers) is should be a same as North Hans because in ancient time, about 100,000 years ago, some of those humans began to leave Africa, with some people moving to China via South and Southeast Asia. There were Cantonese, MinYue, WuYue and Han people.
> 
> read more here. trinicenter.com - Ancient Chinese




You ignorant fool don't even know that there were several periods (such as during Qin Dynasty and the event of 衣冠南渡 after the period of the Three Kingdoms was over) of northern Han immigrated to the South of China extensively. Native people of NanYue are not Cantonese, they were the ancestors of Zhuang people and no body cares how you called/named them.

You idiot don't even know the ancestors of Northern Han and Southern Han were not all the same. Northern Han people are the posterity of Shatuo, Khitan, Xianbei, Huaxia (posterity of Han Dynasty [natives]) and other ancient Chinese ethnicity, yet Southern Han are the posterity of Baiyue and Northerners (Huaxia/ people immigrated to the south from time to time).

You people see how freaking ridiculous this guy's "True Han Theory" is. If ignorant people like him only considered the people of the Warrior States were "true Han", then I'm telling you, Han ethnicity is NOT even existed in this time and space; there is NO Han people in the world. Since the posterity of the Warrior States were either immigrated to the south or mixed with countless "non-natives" like Shatuo, Khitan and Xianbei. This "history creator" keep spreading nonsense like Cantonese should reclaim their "true identity" and only Northern Han is real Han. But the fact is only I, as a southern Han with Hakka background, have the right to claim myself a freaking "True Han". But I would never say something like that because it is freaking racist and stupid. Have you ever seen a English people claim that he is a "true English" and a German claim he is a "pure Aryan" nowadays?

Cantonese don't speak Old and Middle Chinese you illiteracy, go and read again what shea said. Nobody understand fully every single sound of Old and Middle Chinese nowadays, yet Cantonese language still keep more vocabularies and sound from them than Mandarin does you silly.
Once again you are acting like a monkey who knows nothing but dares to laugh at human's knowledge. Now who is a freaking joke.



> *保留較多古漢語用詞*
> 粵語保留相當多的古詞古義，而且現代粵語仍然有較高使用單音詞的傾向。一些被粵語使用者視為通俗的字辭可在古籍中找到來源，而在官話中已經消失不再使用。
> 
> 第一及第二人稱用「我」、「你」，與官話相同，但粵音「我」（ngo5）更保留了中古漢語唐音（*ngɑ̌ ）之疑母（ng-）。第三人稱不用「他」，而是繼承了東晉南朝的用法，跟吳語一樣使用「渠」，現代粵語寫作「佢」。複數人稱不用「們」，而是上溯至端係的 同源形式 [taʔ] 或 [ti]（現代粵語寫作「哋」，本字為「等」）。
> 
> 粵語用「係」而不用「是」來代表正面答覆，「係」是明清小說中常用字，其粵音（hai）與日本人正面答覆時的單字發音（はい）基本相近。
> 
> 在《詩經》、《尚書》等古經典作品中，不少用詞亦在現代粵語中慣常使用。例如，句未助詞「忌」（現代粵語寫為「嘅」字），在《詩經·國風·鄭風·大叔於 田》有「叔善射忌，又良禦忌」的表述； 陰騭（常被寫為陰質）語出《尚書》:「惟天陰騭下民」，指埋沒良心。在文言文和現代粵語中，「卒之、畀」都等同「終於、給予」的意義。古代常用的「文 錢」，粵語也保存了「文」的用法，但常被寫為「蚊」字。「尋日」（昨日）的「尋」可追溯至東晉陶淵明的《歸去來辭》「 尋程氏妹喪於武昌」中的「尋」，解作「不久前」。「幾時」（何時）、「幾多」（多少）可追溯至蘇軾的宋詞《水調歌頭》中的「明月幾時有？把酒問青天。」。 而在李煜的《虞美人》中有「問君能有幾多愁，恰似一江春水向東流。」。
> 
> 粵語亦會借用古語作引伸，演化成新的意義。「牙煙」（正寫「崖廣」）原意為「懸崖邊的廣」（「廣」即是小屋，與簡化字無關)，後引伸為危險。
> 
> 「走」字的本意為「奔跑」（兩腳交互向前迅速躍進），但在官話中已轉義為「步行」。粵語中，「行」就是步行，而「走」則保留了古漢語中「奔跑」的意思。又 如官話用「吃(喫)/喝」，粵語用更古老的「食/飲」（粵北也有用「喫」，或寫成「吔」），用法與《論語．學而》中「君子食無求飽」一致。動詞「來」，粵 語會用「蒞」（常寫作「嚟」），即「歡迎蒞臨」的「蒞臨」。
> 
> 再如「打甂爐」（吃火鍋，常寫作「打邊爐」），「甂爐」為一種古炊具；日常炒菜用的半圓型炊器，古代稱為「釜」，粵語和客家話用「鑊」，官話用「鍋」，閩語用「鼎」。
> 
> 粵語用「謦欬」代表聊天、閒談，是古漢語的用法，在《列子》《莊子》等古書都可找到例句。（「謦欬」因常被寫作「傾偈」，也有人認為是來自僧侶說教「講佛偈」。）



Cantonese "ngo5" (我/ I, me) is even closer than old Chinese "ngɑ̌" than Mandarin "Wǒ".

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## Viet

Fattyacids said:


> I know 90% what all these are about. The pariah of Han trying to discredit Han by rewriting history, LOL. What's new? Everyone in China knows that, they have big chip on their shoulders. Even Koreans claim Confucius was korean and they invented chinese script,
> They may be able to fool people like Indians and others, but all East Asians know the historical truth. And there's no better person to rebut them than our graduate researcher @Wholegrain.


there is a problem with your comrade Wholegrain: he sees through a muslim-colored glass.

For example, he repeately condemns Vietnamese anihilation of ancient Champa. But he always
forgets to say the root cause: Champa had emerged as a terrorist state attacking not only Vietnam but Khmer land (Cambodia). Their radical ideology of Islam threatened the whole region, which was populated with people embracing Budhism and Confucism in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Siam and Burma.

Ancient Vietnam had no choice.


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Native NanYue people (cantonese) are call by Kinh people as "Ngô" people, because they said: "我" with sound: "ngộ" similier to sound "Ngô" in Vietnamese.
> 
> When Tang Dynasty ís collapsed in China, people escaped from North China to South, they called themselves as Tang_ren, such people were related to other minorities No_Hans, like Turks or Xiongnu descendant, they were Hakka or Hokkien peoples.
> T
> 
> *military.Turks in the Tang military - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*



No moron, turkic peoples stayed in northern China after the Tang dynasty collapsed..

Shatuo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Yoke. Cantonese speak Old and Middle Chinese Mandarin, but Han Chinese whose were creators of original Mandarin language can not understand. What kind is funny story you're telling here ?



Mandarin is a new dialect of Chinese that was created around the Song dynasty, from Middle Chinese, with major changes in sound and phonology. Cantonese is closer to Middle and Old Chinese than Mandarin.



> Taiwan is another story. From ancient time to around 1700 years AC, Taiwan was independent state.
> 
> 
> 
> Immigrants to Fujian were first from WuYue.



Nope, they came from Henan in northern China, like Wang Shenzhi, who founded the Min Kingdom.

Wang Shenzhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The paternal DNA of some cantonese (from fathers) is should be a same as North Hans because in ancient time, about 100,000 years ago, some of those humans began to leave Africa, with some people moving to China via South and Southeast Asia. There were Cantonese, MinYue, WuYue and Han people.
> 
> read more here. trinicenter.com - Ancient Chinese



Dumb4ss, when the first Y haplogroup O originated in southeast asia, it wasn't divided into subclades. Y chromosome O people moved from southeast asia to northern China in *prehistoric times*, there was no difference between different people with Y chromosome O, it was the same. Then when ethnicity formed in historic times, Han chinese in northern China developed a subclade of Y chromosome O3 as their own unique marker, while Baiyue developed a subclade of Y chromosome O2 and O1 as their unique marker. 

Then Han men carrying Y chromosome O3 moved to southern China in historic times (the migrations are recorded) and married the native baiyue women in southern China. This is why southern Han are O3 majority like northern Han, unlike Vietnamese who have large amount of O2.

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## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> there is a problem with your comrade Wholegrain: he sees through a muslim-colored glass.
> 
> For example, he repeately condemns Vietnamese anihilation of ancient Champa. But he always
> forgets to say the root cause: Champa had emerged as a terrorist state attacking not only Vietnam but Khmer land (Cambodia). Their radical ideology of Islam threatened the whole region, which was populated with people embracing Budhism and Confucism in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Siam and Burma.
> 
> Ancient Vietnam had no choice.



Vietnam attacked the Sultanate of Malacca/Melaka (the Malays), and besides attacking Malacca and Champa, Vietnam also attacked Lan Xang, Ava, Ryukyu, the Tais etc. Malacca and Champa were Muslim, Ava, Lan Xang and Tai were Buddhist, Ryukyu were Confucian, the only consistent thing I see was Vietnam attacking everyone.

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Miscellaneous Papers Relating to Indo-China: Reprinted for the Straits ... - Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Straits Branch, Reinhold Rost - Google Books

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000 - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000 - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

Blood and Soil: Modern Genocide 1500-2000 - Ben Kiernan - Google Books


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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> Vietnam attacked the Sultanate of Malacca/Melaka (the Malays), and besides attacking Malacca and Champa, Vietnam also attacked Lan Xang, Ava, *Ryukyu*, the Tais etc. Malacca and Champa were Muslim, Ava, Lan Xang and Tai were Buddhist, Ryukyu were Confucian, the only consistent thing I see was Vietnam attacking everyone.


We attacked Ryukyu? Any source? Don´t invent history, dude.


----------



## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> We attacked Ryukyu? Any source? Don´t invent history, dude.



Dai Viet boasted that it "defeated" Ryukyu, after attacking a Ryukyuan ship. 

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books

Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> No moron, turkic peoples stayed in northern China after the Tang dynasty collapsed..
> 
> Shatuo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Mandarin is a new dialect of Chinese that was created around the Song dynasty, from Middle Chinese, with major changes in sound and phonology. Cantonese is closer to Middle and Old Chinese than Mandarin.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, they came from Henan in northern China, like Wang Shenzhi, who founded the Min Kingdom.
> 
> Wang Shenzhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Dumb4ss, when the first Y haplogroup O originated in southeast asia, it wasn't divided into subclades. Y chromosome O people moved from southeast asia to northern China in *prehistoric times*, there was no difference between different people with Y chromosome O, it was the same. Then when ethnicity formed in historic times, Han chinese in northern China developed a subclade of Y chromosome O3 as their own unique marker, while Baiyue developed a subclade of Y chromosome O2 and O1 as their unique marker.
> 
> Then Han men carrying Y chromosome O3 moved to southern China in historic times (the migrations are recorded) and married the native baiyue women in southern China. This is why southern Han are O3 majority like northern Han, unlike Vietnamese who have large amount of O2.





> *Mandarin is a new dialect of Chinese** that was created around the Song dynasty*, from Middle Chinese, with major changes in sound and phonology. Cantonese is closer to Middle and Old Chinese than Mandarin.



Non stop telling a yoke ? Is was Madarin language newly created ? Its stranger ! then now Han Chinese in North don't understand what Cantonese are talking about.

When you don't understand each to other, You don't shared same language. Both of Mandarin language and Cantonese language (NanYue Language) in one family only.



> The languages that are most spoken in the world today belong to the:
> 
> Indo-European family, which includes languages such asEnglish, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, and Hindi;
> 
> the Sino-Tibetan family, which includes Mandarin Chinese,Cantonese, and many others;



Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Han Chinese and Cantonese could shared DNA from paternal line or any, its should happen in early time when Han tribes and NanYue tribes was in going from East Africa, South Asia on road to reach to mainland of China.

Look again your photo here below, there is two types of Han Chinese grouped in two diagrams: Northern Han and Southern Han whose don't shared same DNA. (not overlapped).

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## BeyondHeretic

I know what doesn't kill you makes you stronger

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## Skyline

I have a little question, why Vietnam script is different from its neighboring countries?


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Non stop telling a yoke ? Is was Madarin language newly created ? Its stranger ! then now Han Chinese in North don't understand what Cantonese are talking about.
> 
> When you don't understand each to other, You don't shared same language. Both of Mandarin language and Cantonese language (NanYue Language) in one family only.



Your ignorance makes every normal thing strange you stupid fool. Can English speaking people nowadays understand Old English? Can German speaking people understand old German? Mandarin as a "one-time northern Han Chinese dialect" was more infected by many ancient northern ethnctics, yet Cantonese keep more influence from old Han Chinese. Go read again #601.

and #592 as well.



KirovAirship said:


> Who told you that everyone in the world must follow this standard to define "language".
> 
> There are huge differences between different Japanese dialects and people are hardly understand each others:
> 
> 私は方言を研究してはいるが、実際農村や漁村で使われている言葉は、聞いてもわからないものが多い。
> 
> but they still consider different Japanese dialects are "dialects 方言", not "languages"
> 
> 日 本では、共通語と方言の違いが相当激しい。これがヨーロッパあたりへ行くと、スペイン語とポルトガル 語の違いは、青森県の言葉と福島県の言葉ぐらいの違い しかない。それでもれっきとした二つの国語である。ちょっと聞くとスペイン語とポルトガル語が話せ るなんていうのは、何か非常に偉いような気がする。しか し本当は、青森県の言葉と共通語が話せるということは、もっと違った言葉を使い分けることができ ることなのである。よく日本人は語学が下手だと言われる が、これは大間違いで、日本人のほうが語学の天才かもしれない。
> -- 金田一春彦 (Japanese Linguist)



MR. 金田一 one of the most famous Japanese linguist seems don't wanna give a flying F to your S.


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## EastSea

Skyline said:


> I have a little question, why Vietnam script is different from its neighboring countries?



In ancient time, our script was similar to Sanskrit, I think so. but in time of domination of China Han Ji (Chinese writing Characters) was used until 19th century.






Around 1500 AC, Portugal Christian missionaries came to Vietnam, they applied Latin alphabet to writing our language Vietnamese. "Viet- Portugal- Latin Dictionary" was first Dictionary printed in Roma (Italy) 1651. From beginning of 20th century we changed our script to Latin Alphabet.




 


BeyondHeretic said:


> I know what doesn't kill you makes you stronger



I think, it's harmless, no kill, no make someone to be stronger.

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## Snomannen

Skyline said:


> I have a little question, why Vietnam script is different from its neighboring countries?



I think I can answer this one.

It is actually quite simple -they latinized their own language.

For me Vietnamese script is just like Chinese Pinyin, but they difference is, China used Pinyin as an aid for people to learn Chinese, yet Vietnam used Vietnamese alphabet as an official writing system.

Off topic:
Some people in the CCP was trying to latinized Mandarin as well, but luckily they have finally realized how wrong it could be if they really have done it.

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## rott

KirovAirship said:


> Your ignorance makes every normal thing strange you stupid fool. Can English speaking people nowadays understand Old English? Can German speaking people understand old German? Mandarin as a "one-time northern Han Chinese dialect" was more infected by many ancient northern ethnctics, yet Cantonese keep more influence from old Han Chinese.



I have a question. If Mandarin is a dialect and not a language then what is the Language? do we call "Chinese" as a language and Mandarin as a dialect?


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## Snomannen

rott said:


> I have a question. If Mandarin is a dialect and not a language then what is the Language? do we call "Chinese" as a language and Mandarin as a dialect?


I'm quite confused about this actually, since the English terms "language" and "dialect" are not completely suited to Chinese terms 語言 and 方言. Many people consider that the way to distinguish a different language is base on if people can communicate with each other by speaking with each other. However, base on this standard, most of the Chinese dialects will be considered as various different "languages". Nevertheless, as I have mentioned above, Chinese and Japanese still consider their "different languages" as "different dialects" even though people are sometimes hardy to understand each other.

I heard that there is a new better term to define "Chinese dialects 方言", but I can't remember what that is.

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## nalan

rott said:


> I have a question. If Mandarin is a dialect and not a language then what is the Language? do we call "Chinese" as a language and Mandarin as a dialect?


Mandarin is official standard language,else a dialect.its proved by history.you should know what han is.when you talk about chinese "language",it does not mean to be heard by ear.


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## BeyondHeretic

Skyline said:


> I have a little question, why Vietnam script is different from its neighboring countries?


it's like Armenian


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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> Dai Viet boasted that it "defeated" Ryukyu, after attacking a Ryukyuan ship.
> Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books
> Viet Nam: Borderless Histories - Google Books


well, there are many things I never learn in school. Anyway it sounds to me that Ryukyuan pirates paid a visit to Dai Viet in 1480, and we spanked them, that´s all. 


nalan said:


> Mandarin is official standard language,else a dialect.its proved by history.you should know what han is.when you talk about chinese "language",it does not mean to be heard by ear.


simply put, in the Vietnamese point of view, Mandarin is the language of Emperors and highcast people like public servants and Northerner, while dialects such as Cantonese are languages of lowcast people like merchants and peasants.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> well, there are many things I never learn in school. Anyway it sounds to me that Ryukyuan pirates paid a visit to Dai Viet in 1480, and we spanked them, that´s all.
> simply put, in the Vietnamese point of view, Mandarin is the language of Emperors and highcast people like public servants and Northerner, while dialects such as Cantonese are languages of lowcast people like merchants and peasants.



"Mandarin" (Standard Han Chinese) is not always the same, it has been changing for several times in thousands year. For example, in Ming Dynasty, Mandarin was 南京官話 "Nanjing Mandarin", 雅音 in Zhou Dynasty and 北京官話/ 普通話 "Beijing Mandarin/ Modern Mandarin" from the middle period of Qing Dynasty to nowadays.
Cantonese inherits more influence from old Chinese than Mandarin does. When we are reading ancient poems, reading in Cantonese is always sound more accurate than in Mandarin.
Goddamnit you people's point of view is freaking weird. I really wonder what they teach you people at school.

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## INDIC

KirovAirship said:


> "Mandarin" (Standard Han Chinese) is not always the same, it has been changing for several times in thousands year. For example, in Ming Dynasty, Mandarin was 南京官話 "Nanjing Mandarin", 雅音 in Zhou Dynasty and 北京官話/ 普通話 "Beijing Mandarin/ Modern Mandarin" from the middle period of Qing Dynasty to nowadays.
> Cantonese inherits more influence from old Chinese than Mandarin does.* When we are reading ancient poems, reading in Cantonese is always sound more accurate than in Mandarin.*
> Goddamnit you people's point of view is freaking weird. I really wonder what they teach you people at school.



how such old poem sounds rhythmic when you don't pronounce the original ancient words while reading it.


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## Snomannen

Like this one: 

*登鸛雀樓 * (王之渙) 

白日依山盡，
黃河入海流。
欲窮千裡目，
更上一層樓。 *Up the Stork Tower* (Wang Zhi-Huan, 688-742 AD) 

By the hills the sun loses its glows. 
Into the sea the Yellow River flows. 
To gain a three-hundred-mile view, 
Keep climbing up a floor or few.

流：Cantonese (lau); Mandarin (liu)
樓：Cnatonese (lau); Mandarin (lou)

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Non stop telling a yoke ? Is was Madarin language newly created ? Its stranger ! then now Han Chinese in North don't understand what Cantonese are talking about.
> 
> When you don't understand each to other, You don't shared same language. Both of Mandarin language and Cantonese language (NanYue Language) in one family only.



The Nanyue language was a Tai language like Zhuang and the Li people in Hainan.

Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia - James B. Minahan - Google Books

Antiquarianism and Intellectual Life in Europe and China, 1500-1800 - Google Books

The Pan-Pearl River Delta: An Emerging Regional Economy in a Globalizing China - Google Books

Cantonese are not Nanyue, they are descended from northern Han and Cantonese language is among the closest to Middle Chinese. Vietnamese 

Mandarin is a new dialect of Chinese which emerged in medieval times during the Song dynasty. 

Mandarin Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Old Mandarin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> 
> Han Chinese and Cantonese could shared DNA from paternal line or any, its should happen in early time when Han tribes and NanYue tribes was in going from East Africa, South Asia on road to reach to mainland of China.
> 
> Look again your photo here below, there is two types of Han Chinese grouped in two diagrams: Northern Han and Southern Han whose don't shared same DNA. (not overlapped).



Moron, the studies I posted explicitly attributed the shared paternal DNA to Han migration from northern to southern China, the geneticists can tell at what historical time the geneflow occured through analyizing mutations etc. Northern and Southern Han share more Y chromosomnal DNA with each other than any other people and both have a subclade of Y chromosome O3 as their majority marker which is the signature marker for Han ethnicity.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> The Nanyue language was a Tai language like Zhuang and the Li people in Hainan.
> 
> Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia - James B. Minahan - Google Books
> 
> Antiquarianism and Intellectual Life in Europe and China, 1500-1800 - Google Books
> 
> The Pan-Pearl River Delta: An Emerging Regional Economy in a Globalizing China - Google Books
> 
> Cantonese are not Nanyue, they are descended from northern Han and Cantonese language is among the closest to Middle Chinese. Vietnamese
> 
> Mandarin is a new dialect of Chinese which emerged in medieval times during the Song dynasty.
> 
> Mandarin Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Old Mandarin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Moron, the studies I posted explicitly attributed the shared paternal DNA to Han migration from northern to southern China, the geneticists can tell at what historical time the geneflow occured through analyizing mutations etc. Northern and Southern Han share more Y chromosomnal DNA with each other than any other people and both have a subclade of Y chromosome O3 as their majority marker which is the signature marker for Han ethnicity.



Moron, I copy and past here for you, study more, kid:



> "A group of languages that descend from a common ancestor is known as a *language family*.
> The languages that are most spoken in the world today belong to the Indo-European family, which includes languages such as English, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, and Hindi;
> *the Sino-Tibetan family*, *which includes Mandarin Chinese, Cantonese, and many others;*
> the Afro-Asiatic family, which includes Arabic, Amharic, Somali, and Hebrew; and the Bantu languages, which include Swahili, Zulu, Shona, and hundreds of other languages spoken throughout Africa. "



Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;Wiki stated that Mandarin and Cantonese in one family of language only.




> "*The Cantonese language* is also viewed as part of the cultural identity for the native speakers across large swathes of southern China, Hong Kong and Macau.
> Although *Cantonese *shares much vocabulary with *Mandarin* Chinese, *the two languages are not mutually intelligible because of pronunciation, grammatical, and also lexical differences*.
> Sentence structure, in particular the placement of verbs, sometimes differs between *the two languages*."



Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Wiki stated that there are two languages.




> " No,most Southern Chinese are natives, for example in Guangdong, *at least 40% of their paternal lineage* and 80% maternal line are netive.O1-M119 make up 30% of Zhejiang males,while less than 4% of northern Chinese"


*History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam? | Page 8*

Population of Cantonese in Quangdong province is around 100 millions.

40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 40 Million native people NanYue in according to your theory that paternal lineage should decide the identity of each ethnic group. It should be 40 million Zhuang people in Canton.

I reminder you that Zhoang people in Quangdong is 0.7 %, less than 1 million only.

In case of 80 % Cantonese shared native maternal bloodline, understood that they are included above mentioned 40 % posses-ed paternal blood lineage, it mean 40 million Cantonese are native people, 20 million are mixed people, the rest amount to be a Han immigrants, to be 20 %, or in other wording 20 million Cantonese are mixed and 20 million pure Han people living today in Quangdong.

In case of 100 % of Cantonese are mixed, you don't shared same bloodline with Han Chinese.

Any case, there is confirmed by Chinese experts that: in China is existed two group of Han people: *Southern Han and Northern Han.*

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Moron, I copy and past here for you, study more, kid:
> 
> 
> 
> Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;Wiki stated that Mandarin and Cantonese in one family of language only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Wiki stated that there are two languages.



Wiki also states that Cantonese is among the closest Chinese language to Middle Chinese.

Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> History[edit]
> 
> The area of China south of the Nanling Mountains, known as the Lingnan (roughly modern Guangxi and Guangdong), was originally home to peoples known to the Chinese as the Hundred Yue. *Large-scale Chinese migration to the area began after the Qin conquest of the region in 214 BC.[7] Successive waves followed at times of upheaval in North China, such as the falls of the Han, Tang and Song dynasties.[7] The most popular route was via the Xiang River, which the Qin had connected to the Li River by the Lingqu Canal, and thence into the valley of the Xi Jiang (West River).[8] A secondary route followed the Gan River and then the Bei Jiang (North River) into eastern Guangdong.[9] Yue speakers were later joined by Hakka speakers following the North River route, and Min speakers arriving by sea.[10]*
> After the fall of Qin, the Lingnan area was part of the independent state of Nanyue for about a century, before being incorporated in the Han empire.[9] Following the collapse of the Tang dynasty, much of the Yue area became part of the Southern Han, one of the longest-lived states of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, between 917 and 971.[9]
> The waves of Chinese migration also assimilated huge numbers of aborigines, with the result that today's Yue-speaking population is descended from both groups.[11] The colloquial layers of Yue dialects have a number of elements influenced by the Tai languages formerly spoken widely in the area and still spoken by people such as the Zhuang.[12]



*Cantonese language is closer to Middle Chinese than Mandarin.*

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books

The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books



> *History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam? | Page 8*
> 
> Population of Cantonese in Quangdong province is around 100 millions.
> 
> 40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 40 Million native people NanYue in according to your theory that paternal lineage should decide the identity of each ethnic group. It should be 40 million Zhuang people in Canton.
> 
> I reminder you that Zhoang people in Quangdong is 0.7 %, less than 1 million only.
> 
> In case of 80 % Cantonese shared native maternal bloodline, understood that they are included above mentioned 40 % posses-ed paternal blood lineage, it mean 40 million Cantonese are native people, 20 million are mixed people, the rest amount to be a Han immigrants, to be 20 %, or in other wording 20 million Cantonese are mixed and 20 million pure Han people living today in Quangdong.
> 
> In case of 100 % of Cantonese are mixed, you don't shared same bloodline with Han Chinese.
> 
> Any case, there is confirmed by Chinese experts that: in China is existed two group of Han people: *Southern Han and Northern Han.*



*Over 60-68% of Cantonese have paternal descent from northern Han. Ethnicity in Vietnam and China is traced through the father. Kinh, Han, Miao, Yao, Manchu, Mongol, and Koreans all trace ancestry through the father and ethnicity is inherited from the father. They are called patrilineal and patriarchial societies for a reason. Even today, the Minh Huong and Hoa in Vietnam trace their ancestry through their father. 60% is majority, do you know how to do math?*

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books



> *Y chromosome data show that on average southern Chinese Han have a large paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han (82%)*. But mtDNA data show that southern Chinese Han have equal maternal contributions from northern Chinese Han (56%) and southern Chinese natives ( 44%) (Table 4A). The high paternal but lower maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han indicate strong sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han over the past two millennia (Wen et al. 2004). A more recent comparison of paternal and maternal data confirmed the sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han (Xue et al. 2008).
> 
> When we consider the admixture proportions of Fujian Han and Guangdong Han, the ancestors of Taiwanese Han, sex-biased admixture is even more evident than in the southern Chinese Han averages. Fujian Han are estimated to have a 100 percent paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han but only a 34 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. *Guangdong Han are estimated to have 68 percent paternal* but only 1 5 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. The maternal contributions from southern Chinese natives to Fujian and Guangdong Han were estimated as 66 percent and 85 percent (Table 3A), respectively. The extreme sex-biased contributions in Fujian Han and Guangdong Han indicate that the male ancestors of Taiwanese Han frequently intermarried with the female ancestors of southern Chinese natives before they migrated to Taiwan.
> 
> *This sex-bias illustrates a significant feature of the Han expansion: many male migrants from northern China married women from local non-Han populations in the south*. Therefore, the Han-grandfathers-Indigenous-grandmothers folk saying seems to apply generally to southern China over the past two millenia.



Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf



> The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. *Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion*. The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.



European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages



> Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River.* On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed*.



Cantonese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】



> According to a DNA Chinese study for all Han ethnic group. The average Cantonese paternal Y-DNA is 60% Han and 40% Baiyue while maternal mtDNA is 20% Han and 80% Baiyue. Of the Han paternal Y-DNA ancestry 10% is estimated to have came from during the Qin dynasty and 50% came from the Tang/Song dynasty 《人口研究》 - 中国各地DNA数据 [34]



We know full well that Cantonese and Hakka mtDNA (inherited from the mother) is from the natives, nobody tried to hide it because ethnicity isn't traced through the mother.

Analysis of matrilineal genetic background differences between Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka--《Journal of Xi'an Jiaotong University(Medical Sciences)》2010年06期



> Analysis of matrilineal genetic background differences between Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka
> 
> LI Xiao-yun1,SU Min1,HUANG Hai-hua1,LI Hui2,TIAN Dong-ping1,GAO Yu-xia1(1.Department of Pathology,Key Immunopathology Laboratory of Guangdong Province,Medical College of Shantou University,Shantou 515031;2.State Key Laboratory ofGenetic Engineering and Center for Anthropological Studies,School of Life Sciences,Fudan University,Shanghai 200433,China)
> Objective Three ethnic populations of Han inhabitants in Guangdong Province,namely,Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka,descended from north-central China Han immigrants.Here we analyzed their genetic background differences based on mitochondrial DNA(mtDNA) evidences reflecting matrilineal genetics.Methods Based on mtDNA variations,we inferred mtDNA haplogroups of 48 and 89 subjects from the Taihang and Chaoshan areas,respectively.mtDNA data of Cantonese and Hakka populations were quoted from published literature.We compared haplogroup distribution in the 3 ethnic populations with that in the Taihang Mountain population and the southern natives.Results The northern Han-dominating haplogroups were predominant in the Taihang Mountain population,while Cantonese and Hakka populations had southern natives-dominating haplogroups as their major haplogroups,and Chaoshan population possessed slightly higher frequency of northern haplogroups than southern haplogroups.The principal component analysis based on frequencies of mtDNA haplogroups showed that the Taihang Mountain population and Chaoshan population clustered together,and that Cantonese,Hakka and the southern natives clustered together.Conclusion Of the 3 ethnic populations,Chaoshan population alone possesses the purest lineage of north-central China Hans,and shows the closest genetic affinity to the Taihang Mountain population,which might be one of the reasons why Chaoshan population alone has become esophageal cancer high-risk population in the coast of southern China.Both Cantonese and Hakka populations show more gene flow from the southern natives in the maternal lineage.

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## Wholegrain

The majority of Northern and Southern Han Y chromosomes are the same, subclades of Y haplogroup O3.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Moron, I copy and past here for you, study more, kid:
> 
> Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;Wiki stated that Mandarin and Cantonese in one family of language only.
> 
> Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Wiki stated that there are two languages.



How about you go read some tangible books and articles before playing with Wikipedia.

[Due to mutual unintelligibility and based on linguistic features, Western linguists tend to regard the fangyan (方言) as separate languages united under a cover term ‘Chinese’ (e.g. Barnes 1982, DeFrancis 1984, who also quotes Leonard Bloomfield). However, they usually defer to the views of Chinese linguists who consider them as dialects.]

[...the Chinese term fangyan (方言) defies exact translation into English (dialect)... fangyan (方言) and dialect represent radically different concepts.]

--What Is a Chinese ‘Dialect/Topolect’?

[Hence every dialect is a language, but not every language is a dialect.]

-- Dialect, Language, Nation


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## INDIC

EastSea said:


> I*n ancient time, our script was similar to Sanskrit*, I think so. but in time of domination of China Han Ji (Chinese writing Characters) was used until 19th century.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Around 1500 AC, Portugal Christian missionaries came to Vietnam, they applied Latin alphabet to writing our language Vietnamese. "Viet- Portugal- Latin Dictionary" was first Dictionary printed in Roma (Italy) 1651. From beginning of 20th century we changed our script to Latin Alphabet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think, it's harmless, no kill, no make someone to be stronger.





BeyondHeretic said:


> it's like Armenian



Are you referring to champa script or Viets too had an Indian derived script.


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## yue10

INDIC said:


> Are you referring to champa script or Viets too had an Indian derived script.


the Viet have their own script? 

they will try to tell you they have fire script, tadpole script, existing rich culture before Chinese came but somehow the Chinese banned all this and forced them to adopt Chinese culture, Zhuang people still under suzerain of Chinese living in Chinese lands is less Sinicised then these Annam pigs but for some reason they lost all culture and not Zhuang, an alien come down to earth would easily see they are massive copy cat of Chinese culture but they try to deny everything, it all come down to big chip on the shoulder


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I know how *Cantonese *look, 20% of them look North Chinese, while 10% of them could pass as a *Viet*, but most of them are a mix between North China and the native people in South China.


VN school girls





HK school girls


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> the Viet have their own script?
> 
> they will try to tell you they have fire script, tadpole script, existing rich culture before Chinese came but somehow the Chinese banned all this and forced them to adopt Chinese culture, Zhuang people still under suzerain of Chinese living in Chinese lands is less Sinicised then these Annam pigs but for some reason they lost all culture and not Zhuang, an alien come down to earth would easily see they are massive *copy cat *of Chinese culture but they try to deny everything, it all come down to big chip on the shoulder


Don´t resort to insulting, you clown! we are more than just a copy cat, we have adopted what fit best to our cultures and custom. So we have our own indigenous stuffs (for example a strong role of women in the society and relatively independent villages before Emperor) and then we add some ingredients of Chinese, French, Indic Champa as well as American.

Do Chinese have similar clothes as seen below?


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## yue10

let us look the Viet history and mentality to understand how much pathetic they are try to rewrite and teach the Chinese their own history 



> The earliest event recorded as historical in a Vietnamese source comes from the Viet su luoc and is dated in the reign of a Chinese king, Chuang of Chou, who reigned from 696 to 682 B.C. Eighteen generations separated Chuang of Chou from the end of his dynasty. Vietnamese historians seem to have inherited a tradition of eighteen generations of Hung kings, coming to an end simultaneously with the Chinese house of Chou


here supposedly 18 generation of Hung Kings is directly copied off Chinese 


> Ly Ong Trong was a Vietnamese giant supposedly sent as tribute from King An Duong to Ch’in Shih Huang Ti; after a distinguished career fighting the Hsiung-nu on the empire’s northern frontier, he returned to his native village and died there. However, Ly Ong Trong’s cult was established by a ninth-century Chinese governor in Vietnam, so it probably had little to do with events in the time of King An Duong


here trying to claim Ly Ong Trong has something to do with them when it was established by Chinese in 9th century 


> In the fifteenth century, when Confucian thought first dominated the Vietnamese court, historians seeking to extend the genealogy of Confucian practice as far as possible into the past recorded the 1070 shrine as a Temple of Literature (Van Mieu), which indeed it became in the fifteenth century, a type of temple that in Ming China was dedicated to Confucius. However, the first Van Mieu in China was built in 1410, so an eleventh-century Van Mieu in Vietnam is implausible. After years of dereliction during the twentieth-century wars, the Van Mieu in Hanoi has been rebuilt and is now a major tourist site, claimed as the first university in Vietnam.


here the pathetic Viets so desperate to claim a part of Confucianism got their dates all mixed up 

from these lies already we can see that their history is all BS and does not belong to them, the Annam pigs were never civilised before contact with Chinese so they wrote their history by reading the Chinese history books and picking out certain things and claiming it as theirs 


Viet said:


> Don´t resort to insulting, you clown! we are more than just a copy cat, we have adopted what fit best to our cultures and custom. So we have our own indigenous stuffs (for example a strong role of women in the society and relatively independent villages before Emperor) and then we add some ingredients of Chinese, French, Indic Champa as well as American.
> 
> Do Chinese have similar clothes as seen below?


qipao..... , sorry qipao is the Manchu lolz, I am too eager to troll sometimes


 Dong Son – Bronze drum
In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.”
However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record information about themselves until the present – a time period roughly equivalent to the thousand years of the second millennium AD – *bronze drums were never part of the cultural lives of the Việt.* Instead, it is people whom the Việt perceived to be different from themselves, and whom the Việt looked down upon, who employed bronze drums in their cultural lives.
In any case, none of the details that Lê Tắc provided were his own. Instead, they can be found in earlier “Chinese” sources. Some people will argue that Lê Tắc probably wrote this way because he wrote this book when he was in “China,” but the nineteenth-century geographical text, the _Đại Nam nhất thống chí_ 大南一統志, *likewise cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were.
So prior to the twentieth century, bronze drums, which are now the symbol of “the antiquity of the Việt nation,” were basically unknown to the Việt.*

lolz 'cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were' but in the modern day they claim bronze drum was proof of Viet civilisation of the Lac Viet

again we are seeing the stealing of other peoples culture when it have nothing to do with them, I will guess if there were no records of Chams, these Annam pigs will probably try to steal their relics as well why the hell everything go in one post?


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## yue10

the Lac Viet was Tai people Xi Ou was Tai tribe led by An Duong Vuong, it make more sense for 2 Tai tribes to form coexisting group then a Tai and Mon-Khmer somehow come together as brothers

Lac = prefix for Tai clans 

the pure AA Annam pigs was centred in Laos and later occupied the delta during AD period, Nan Yue, Trung sisters have nothing to do with these people they are claiming the wrong ancestors. the Red River delta was belonging to Tai people and the Viet stole their homelands but somehow they come out with ridiculous idea of claiming back lost lands in Southern China 

I am calling on Chinese on behalf of ethnic Daic minorities and also Lao, Thai, Shan to mobilise forces and take back lost Tai homelands from these Annam pigs 











According to the related historical records, the population history of the Kinh, which we extrapolated also, conforms to the pattern of demic diffusion. In North Vietnam, the early inhabitant is the Luo-Yue of Daic family. In the Han dynasty, there was a war between the Chinese central government and the Southern Yue government, which resulted in heavy political pressure on the Yue (Daic) population, which lasted into Wu dynasty of the Three States Period. A large number of Daic populations including the Luo-Yue moved westwards to Guizhou, west Guangxi, Laos, and as far as north Thailand. It was nearly empty along Tonkin Bay, including North Vietnam and east Guangxi. In the following, the Jing dynasty and the Southern-Northern States Period, as the northern nomads invaded central China, the Chinese government ignored Tonkin Bay and left it for the growing Kinh population. Since then, the Kinh appeared in the records of north Vietnam. After a long time of development in the Sui and Tang dynasties, a country of Kinh people was founded during the China’s civil strife in the late Tang dynasty.

The geographic origin and time of dispersal of Austroasiatic (AA) speakers, presently settled in south and southeast Asia, remains disputed. Two rival hypotheses, both assuming a demic component to the language dispersal, have been proposed. *The first of these places the origin of Austroasiatic speakers in southeast Asia with a later dispersal to south Asia during the Neolithic, whereas the second hypothesis advocates pre-Neolithic origins and dispersal of this language family from south Asia.* To test the two alternative models, this study combines the analysis of uniparentally inherited markers with 610,000 common single nucleotide polymorphism loci from the nuclear genome. Indian AA speakers have high frequencies of Y chromosome haplogroup O2a; *our results show that this haplogroup has significantly higher diversity and coalescent time (17-28 thousand years ago) in southeast Asia, strongly supporting the first of the two hypotheses.* Nevertheless, the results of principal component and "structure-like" analyses on autosomal loci also show that the population history of AA speakers in India is more complex, being characterized by two ancestral components-one represented in the pattern of Y chromosomal and EDAR results and the other by mitochondrial DNA diversity and genomic structure. *We propose that AA speakers in India today are derived from dispersal from southeast Asia,* followed by extensive sex-specific admixture with local Indian populations

Rather, their peculiar genetic profile is better explained by a decrease in genetic diversity through genetic drift from an ancestral population having a genetic profile similar to present-day Austroasiatic populations from Southeast Asia (*thus suggesting a possible southeastern origin*), followed by intensive gene flow with neighboring Indian populations. This conclusion is in agreement with archaeological and linguistic information.


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## Snomannen

@yue10
Qipao 旗袍 is not Manchrian, 旗裝 is. Qipao is invented by Han.
And I don't really think those dresses are Qipao. 


Viet said:


> VN school girls
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HK school girls



For me half of Vietnamese I have met are no different with Southern Chinese. Half of the rest remind me Filipino and Indonesian.


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## yue10

I thought this is qipao, it is invented by Han?





and this is ao dai


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## INDIC

yue10 said:


> the Viet have their own script?
> 
> they will try to tell you they have fire script, tadpole script, existing rich culture before Chinese came but somehow the Chinese banned all this and forced them to adopt Chinese culture, Zhuang people still under suzerain of Chinese living in Chinese lands is less Sinicised then these Annam pigs but for some reason they lost all culture and not Zhuang, an alien come down to earth would easily see they are massive copy cat of Chinese culture but they try to deny everything, it all come down to big chip on the shoulder



Even Japanese and Koreans adopted Chinese script, they surely aren't Chinese.

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## Viet

INDIC said:


> Even Japanese and Koreans adopted Chinese script, they surely aren't Chinese.


yue10 is a troller and idiot. He forgets to tell one of the most important facts:
- we Viets were Chinese or Han Viet for almost 1,000 years (111 bc-938 ad) and that means China/Vietnam shared a common history for 1,000 years. We both were the same citizen in the same country.
- conclusion: how can he blame we dare to copy from the Han if we are Han ourselves?

You can ignore the rest what he says because it is just shit. As usual. Every idiot can write and make history up.

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## INDIC

Viet said:


> yue10 is a troller and idiot. He forgets to tell one of the most important facts:
> - we Viets were Chinese or Han Viet for almost 1,000 years (111 bc-938 ad) and that means China/Vietnam shared a common history for 1,000 years. We both were the same citizen in the same country.
> - conclusion: how can he blame we dare to copy from the Han if we are Han ourselves?
> 
> You can ignore the rest what he says because it is just shit. As usual. Every idiot can write and make history up.



Tibetans too use Indian derived script instead of a Chinese writing system, many of the letters are extremely identical to Hindi's Devanagari script. What will a Chinese say about it.

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## Snomannen

INDIC said:


> Tibetans too use Indian derived script instead of a Chinese writing system, many of the letters are extremely identical to Hindi's Devanagari script. What will a Chinese say about it.



Who cares?
You don't even really need to learn Han Chinese to be a Chinese.

--------------

Oh now I know why you were so "happy" with it after I have read #648 .
You so silly, so is that stupid guy who likes your post.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Who cares?
> You don't even really need to learn Han Chinese to be a Chinese.


Indeed you have an unique definition of what China or Chinese is, that stands in contrast to Vietnam. I remember you said once China/Chinese is a concept.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> Indeed you have an unique definition of what China or Chinese is, that stands in contrast to Vietnam. I remember you said once China/Chinese is a concept.


That is not freaking unique at all, I am just following what the freaking glorious CCP/ Central Government has taught us.
The CCP never tell you learning Mandarin (a language of Han Chinese) is a must to be a Chinese and always emphasize Han Chinese (the so-called "main ethnic of China" - which such title is never admitted by anyone) is only a part of Chinese ethnics group in order to stand against Han chauvinism.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> That is not freaking unique at all, I am just following what the freaking glorious CCP/ Central Government has taught us.
> The CCP never tell you learning Mandarin (a language of Han Chinese) is a must to be a Chinese and always emphasize Han Chinese (the so-called "main ethnic of China" - which such title is never admitted by anyone) is only a part of Chinese ethnics group in order to stand against Han chauvinism.


 poor you! I mistakenly thought as a citizen of Macau you are freed of such education.

Now I have 2 simple questions: where China begins and where it ends (as one knows China border is fluid)? Any plan to invade Vietnam? You know I don´t want to be surprised when I visit my glorious country.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> poor you! I mistakenly thought as a citizen of Macau you are freed of such education.
> 
> Now I have 2 simple questions: where China begins and where it ends (as one knows China border is fluid)? Any plan to invade Vietnam? You know I don´t want to be surprised when I visit my glorious country.



It is not only the CCP but also the idea from the Republic and even from the earlier Empires~ A strong, united China is always better than a separated, weak China.
Besides I have no better choice~ The GMD from Taiwan is such a pitiful loser and the local SAR government can't live without those $$ from Mainlanders~

This song can answer your first question~





As for the second question, I do really hope so~ I always think it is a shame that Vietnam became independent from China many years ago. Vietnam should always be a part of Greater China and together we shall make the whole world bow before us~

By the way, do you know that the Qing Dynasty of China was about to make Korea a province from a Vassal State?


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> I thought this is qipao, it is invented by Han?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this is ao dai


you got the point, man. Oook, next try, what is Chinese in the clothings below (as you are so certain we copy everything from the mother China)?
A tip: the woman standing in the first line is not Vietnamese. LOL



_Pres. Park attending a fashion show in Vietnam._


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> By the way, do you know that the Qing Dynasty of China was about to make Korea a province from a Vassal State?


 hmmm...I guess it is the same reason similar to why China wanted to annex Vietnam.


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## Genesis

IS there any plans to abandon the communist party? 

IS the Vietnam China situation much like the China Soviet situation of the past?

But from what I can see due to size and population we have not only matched by outperformed the Russians in terms of economy, and it is only a matter of time before we do so on other fronts.

How does Vietnam see itself? How will Vietnam react, because unless something crazy happens and we go back to cultural revolution China and Vietnam becomes Meiji or post war Japan, there is no way Vietnam will ever surpass China, it's a simple matter of we got 10 times the population and a bunch more land. 

So what is Vietnam's role and future relationship with China? Are we going to be a UK, US relationship?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Genesis said:


> IS there any plans to abandon the communist party?
> 
> IS the Vietnam China situation much like the China Soviet situation of the past?
> 
> But from what I can see due to size and population we have not only matched by outperformed the Russians in terms of economy, and it is only a matter of time before we do so on other fronts.
> 
> How does Vietnam see itself? How will Vietnam react, because unless something crazy happens and we go back to cultural revolution China and Vietnam becomes Meiji or post war Japan, there is no way Vietnam will ever surpass China, it's a simple matter of we got 10 times the population and a bunch more land.
> 
> So what is Vietnam's role and future relationship with China? Are we going to be a UK, US relationship?


 
Nope, both countries are better under the rule of the communist party. 


Viet said:


> VN school girls
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HK school girls


 
Both have Southeast Asian influence, but Viets have stronger one.


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## nalan

INDIC said:


> Even Japanese and Koreans adopted Chinese script, they surely aren't Chinese.


if there are tens million koreans living in china or tens million chinese living in kr...it does naturely,right?



INDIC said:


> Tibetans too use Indian derived script instead of a Chinese writing system, many of the letters are extremely identical to Hindi's Devanagari script. What will a Chinese say about it.


it is easier to "copy" these than chinese,and consider their custom,so no surprise they turned to learn these.but we closer them than anyone,we need time to enhance our influence.

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## nalan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Both have Southeast Asian influence, but Viets have stronger one.


Some Cantonese retained some local characteristics in appearance,and some not.Guangdong is the province of immigrants.


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## Wholegrain

INDIC said:


> Even Japanese and Koreans adopted Chinese script, they surely aren't Chinese.



It seems you suffer from terminal dyslexia, because yue10 never said anything about using Chinese script making people Chinese. He is referring to claims by Vietnamese historians that they had their own script before they were ruled by China and used Chinese characters, but no one except the Vietnamese believes in their fantasy claims. Western historians do not recognize this fictional "Vietnamese script" that pre-dated Chinese rule.

Ancient Vietnamese writing decoded - News VietNamNet

Funny how reports of this script only appear in Vietnam, and no western or asian historian (except the Vietnamese themselves) believes this "script" is real. 


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Nope, both countries are better under the rule of the communist party.
> 
> Both have Southeast Asian influence, but Viets have stronger one.



The Baiyue who lived in Guangdong were Tai people like the Zhuang and Li people, they were not austro asiatic like Vietnamese Kinh. You should compare Zhuang and Li people.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Wiki also states that Cantonese is among the closest Chinese language to Middle Chinese.
> 
> Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> *Cantonese language is closer to Middle Chinese than Mandarin.*
> 
> Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books
> 
> The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books
> 
> China - Michael Cannings - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> *Over 60-68% of Cantonese have paternal descent from northern Han. Ethnicity in Vietnam and China is traced through the father. Kinh, Han, Miao, Yao, Manchu, Mongol, and Koreans all trace ancestry through the father and ethnicity is inherited from the father. They are called patrilineal and patriarchial societies for a reason. Even today, the Minh Huong and Hoa in Vietnam trace their ancestry through their father. 60% is majority, do you know how to do math?*
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html
> 
> http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf
> 
> 
> 
> European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages
> 
> 
> 
> Cantonese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】
> 
> 
> 
> We know full well that Cantonese and Hakka mtDNA (inherited from the mother) is from the natives, nobody tried to hide it because ethnicity isn't traced through the mother.
> 
> Analysis of matrilineal genetic background differences between Chaoshan population,Cantonese and Hakka--《Journal of Xi'an Jiaotong University(Medical Sciences)》2010年06期



*40 million Cantonese have their paternal blood lineage from native people, no Han. 

Who are they ?*

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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> the Lac Viet was Tai people Xi Ou was Tai tribe led by An Duong Vuong, it make more sense for 2 Tai tribes to form coexisting group then a Tai and Mon-Khmer somehow come together as brothers
> 
> Lac = prefix for Tai clans
> 
> the pure AA Annam pigs was centred in Laos and later occupied the delta during AD period, Nan Yue, Trung sisters have nothing to do with these people they are claiming the wrong ancestors. the Red River delta was belonging to Tai people and the Viet stole their homelands but somehow they come out with ridiculous idea of claiming back lost lands in Southern China
> 
> *I* am calling on Chinese on behalf of *ethnic Daic minorities and also Lao, Thai, Shan to mobilise forces and take back lost Tai homelands from these Annam pigs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to the related historical records, the population history of the Kinh, which we extrapolated also, conforms to the pattern of demic diffusion. In North Vietnam, the early inhabitant is the Luo-Yue of Daic family. In the Han dynasty, there was a war between the Chinese central government and the Southern Yue government, which resulted in heavy political pressure on the Yue (Daic) population, which lasted into Wu dynasty of the Three States Period. A large number of Daic populations including the Luo-Yue moved westwards to Guizhou, west Guangxi, Laos, and as far as north Thailand. It was nearly empty along Tonkin Bay, including North Vietnam and east Guangxi. In the following, the Jing dynasty and the Southern-Northern States Period, as the northern nomads invaded central China, the Chinese government ignored Tonkin Bay and left it for the growing Kinh population. Since then, the Kinh appeared in the records of north Vietnam. After a long time of development in the Sui and Tang dynasties, a country of Kinh people was founded during the China’s civil strife in the late Tang dynasty.
> 
> The geographic origin and time of dispersal of Austroasiatic (AA) speakers, presently settled in south and southeast Asia, remains disputed. Two rival hypotheses, both assuming a demic component to the language dispersal, have been proposed. *The first of these places the origin of Austroasiatic speakers in southeast Asia with a later dispersal to south Asia during the Neolithic, whereas the second hypothesis advocates pre-Neolithic origins and dispersal of this language family from south Asia.* To test the two alternative models, this study combines the analysis of uniparentally inherited markers with 610,000 common single nucleotide polymorphism loci from the nuclear genome. Indian AA speakers have high frequencies of Y chromosome haplogroup O2a; *our results show that this haplogroup has significantly higher diversity and coalescent time (17-28 thousand years ago) in southeast Asia, strongly supporting the first of the two hypotheses.* Nevertheless, the results of principal component and "structure-like" analyses on autosomal loci also show that the population history of AA speakers in India is more complex, being characterized by two ancestral components-one represented in the pattern of Y chromosomal and EDAR results and the other by mitochondrial DNA diversity and genomic structure. *We propose that AA speakers in India today are derived from dispersal from southeast Asia,* followed by extensive sex-specific admixture with local Indian populations
> 
> Rather, their peculiar genetic profile is better explained by a decrease in genetic diversity through genetic drift from an ancestral population having a genetic profile similar to present-day Austroasiatic populations from Southeast Asia (*thus suggesting a possible southeastern origin*), followed by intensive gene flow with neighboring Indian populations. This conclusion is in agreement with archaeological and linguistic information.



Don't make same mistake what Champa did in the past when they tried annex Jiaozhi land to them.

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## INDIC

nalan said:


> if there are tens million koreans living in china or tens million chinese living in kr...it does naturely,right?
> 
> 
> it is easier to "copy" these than chinese,and consider their custom,so no surprise they turned to learn these.but we closer them than anyone,we need time to enhance our influence.



Koreans are non Hans but an ethnic minority in China while Tibetans share very little common culture with Hans, there is hardly any influence of Taoism and Confucianism in Tibet.

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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> The Baiyue who lived in Guangdong were *Tai *people like the Zhuang and Li people, they were not *austro asiatic *like Vietnamese Kinh. You should compare Zhuang and Li people.


Who is Tai people? You are right, they are not Viets, but do they look Cantonese or Southern Han? For me, they look more Thai than Chinese.

Tai women in China





and Mr cleverness, can you tell me
what is austro-asiatic?
who are the people that speak austro-asiatic languages?

I found some sources and articles, so I post them here:
_Austro-Asiatic Language Family






*Overview
*
Austro- means "south" in Greek, hence the name Austro-Asiatic. Most of the languages that belong to this family are spoken in Southeast Asia, in countries located between China and Indonesia. A few are spoken to the west of this area in theNicobar Islands and in India.
The Austro-Asiatic family includes 168 languages. Ethnologue subdivides it into two branches: Mon-Khmer with 147 languages, and Munda with 21 languages. Below is a listing of the various groups, their membership size, and areas where they are spoken: 

Mon-Khmer (147 Languages)_
_Aslian_
_19 languages
Malay peninsula_
_Eastern Mon-Khmer_
_67 languages
Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam_
_Monic_
_2 languages
Myanmar, Thailand_
_Nicobar_
_6 languages
Nicobar Islands, parts of India_
_Northern Mon-Khmer_
_38 languages
India, Myanmar, Laos, Southern China, Thailand_
_Palyu_
_1 language
Southern China_
_Viet-Muong_
_10 languages (including Vietnamese)
Vietnam and Laos_
_Unclassified_
_4 languages
China
Munda (21 languages)_
_North Munda_
_12 languages
India_
_South Munda_
_9 languages
India

Over two-thirds of these languages are seriously endangered, on the brink of extinction, or are already extinct. As you can see from the table below, only 24 (14%) of the 168 languages have populations over 50,000, and only three have populations of over 1 million.

It is not known where the Austro-Asiatic people who speak these languages came from or when they migrated to this part of the world. *It is probable that they came from southern or southeastern China some time between 2,000-2,500 BC*, and migrated south into the Indo-Chinese peninsula and west into India. Invasions by speakers of other languages split the Austro-Asiatic languages into several groups. As a result of these invasions, few national states ever developed in the areas where these languages were spoken. The only exceptions were Khmer, Mon, and Vietnamese. The rest of the speakers of Austro-Asiatic languages continue to live in small tribal groups even today.

Because of their separation from each other and because these languages were surrounded by other languages that influenced them, they exhibit great diversity. For instance, The Munda branch has been influenced by synthetic, non-tonal Ind0-Aryan languages, the Mon-Khmer branch, on the other hand, was influenced by analytic, tonal languages of China. As a result, the two branches have evolved in different directions which makes the reconstruction of their common ancestor extremely difficult.

*Vietnamese Language *

Official language of Vietnam, spoken in the early 21st century by more than 70 million people. It belongs to the Viet-Muong subbranch of the Vietic branch of the Mon-Khmer family, which is itself a part of the Austroasiatic stock. Except for a group of divergent rural dialects spoken between Hue and Vinh, most of the dialects of Vietnamese differ from each other to about the same degree as do the dialects of English in the United States. The standard language is based on the speech of educated people living in and around Hanoi. A large proportion of the vocabulary of Vietnamese has been borrowed from Chinese, and the influence of Tai languages is also evident.

Characteristics of Vietnamese include the use of tones to distinguish words with identical consonant and vowel sequences, the use of word order to express the syntactic relations of words to each other, and the use of modifiers rather than affixes to express the tense and voice of verb forms.

-

Britannica Encyclopedia
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/...amese-language#

*Muong people in Vietnam *_(they look similar to Viet/Kinh people):
_




Muong girls





*Names of VN:*

Van Lang - from about 500 B.C. to 257 B.C.
Au Lac - from 257 B.C. to 207 B.C.
Nam Viet - from 207 B.C. to 111 B.C.
Giao Chi - from 111 B.C. to A.D. 203
Giao Chau - from 203 to 544
Van Xuan - from 544 to 603
An Nam - meaning the "Pacified South," during China's occupation from 603 to 939
Dai Viet - during the Ngo Dynasty 939 to 967
Dai Co Viet - from 968 to 1054, during the Dinh, early Le and early Ly dynasties
Dai Viet - from 1054 to 1400 the Ngo Dynasty name returned during the later Ly and Tran dynasties
Dai Ngu - during the Ho Dynasty, 1400-1407
An Nam - again, under the Chinese from 1407 to 1428
Dai Viet - returned for a third time from 1428 to 1802 under the later Le, Mac and Tay Son dynasties

Viet Nam - made its first appearance in 1802
Dai Nam - starting in 1832
Cochin China, Annam and Tonkin - under the French, for the southern, central and northern regions respectively

Viet Nam - chosen again in 1945 _

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## Viet

yue10 said:


> the Lac Viet was Tai people Xi Ou was Tai tribe led by An Duong Vuong, it make more sense for 2 Tai tribes to form coexisting group then a Tai and Mon-Khmer somehow come together as brothers
> 
> *Lac *= prefix for Tai clans
> 
> the pure AA* Annam pigs* was centred in Laos and later occupied the delta during AD period, Nan Yue, Trung sisters have nothing to do with these people they are claiming the wrong ancestors. the Red River delta was belonging to Tai people and the Viet stole their homelands but somehow they come out with ridiculous idea of claiming back lost lands in Southern China
> 
> I am calling on Chinese on behalf of ethnic Daic minorities and also Lao, Thai, Shan to *mobilise forces* and take back lost Tai homelands from these Annam pigs


Care of your language, you fcking retard! You are pathetic, just good at faking history.
*Lạc Việt* (雒越), *Âu Lạc* (甌雒/甌駱) are ancient Vietnam. Lac means water, referring to the Red River delta where the Viets live.

So now you can run amok.


----------



## yue10

Viet said:


> yue10 is a troller and idiot. He forgets to tell one of the most important facts:
> - we Viets were Chinese or Han Viet for almost 1,000 years (111 bc-938 ad) and that means China/Vietnam shared a common history for 1,000 years. We both were the same citizen in the same country.
> - conclusion: how can he blame we dare to copy from the Han if we are Han ourselves?
> You can ignore the rest what he says because it is just shit. As usual. Every idiot can write and make history up.
> 
> Care of your language, you fcking retard! You are pathetic, just good at faking history.
> *Lạc Việt* (雒越), *Âu Lạc* (甌雒/甌駱) are ancient Vietnam. Lac means water, referring to the Red River delta where the Viets lives .



So now you can run amok.
there you go again with your swearing, the Viet race is uncivilised as usual, can expect nothing more 
anyways no I did not make up history, I just copied pasted what the professor people opinions, it is not fact ‘Kinh’ was ruled by Chinese for 1000yrs, your main book for ancient history is written in 15th century amigo so how can you know what happened all the way back in 2879BC, look here your own Viet professor wrote this



> the Vietnamese historians belonging either to the old Chinese school or to the socialist school, had explained the formation of the Vietnamese people in terms of a radical difference in origin with the Chinese people,* any similitude that could be found between Vietnamese and the Chinese was constituted as imposed by the governing nation – China to the governed one – Vietnam*
> But if it were so, one of the strangest phenomena had happened. Why other ethnic groups of Vietnam, such as the Muong, the Man, the Lolo, the Nung, the Thai, the Meo, etc…could keep their customs, their language, their religions, in one word, their way of life, and only the Vietnamese lost theirs? Were they not the majority of the population? Why, globally speaking, the Vietnamese culture was Chinese? the Vietnamese language was Chinese? the Vietnamese religions were Chinese? the Vietnamese education was Chinese?


can understand the bold sentence? your modern historian try to make it sound like everything that is similar to Chinese was forced upon you during domination period but they seem to forgot that you desperately tried to copy AFTER independence



> *In the fifteenth century, when Confucian thought first dominated the Vietnamese court, historians seeking to extend the genealogy of Confucian practice as far as possible* into the past recorded the 1070 shrine as a Temple of Literature (Van Mieu), which indeed it became in the fifteenth century, a type of temple that in Ming China was dedicated to Confucius. However, the first Van Mieu in China was built in 1410, so an eleventh-century Van Mieu in Vietnam is implausible. After years of dereliction during the twentieth-century wars, the Van Mieu in Hanoi has been rebuilt and is now a major tourist site, claimed as the first university in Vietnam.





> The Sino-Vietnamese term Hán, normally used in reference to Chinese people, appears frequently in early Nguyễn records, Choi and Tana suggest that Hán actually refers to ethnic Vietnamese, who decided by the early 19th century to adopt that term for to distinguish themselves from the other ethnic groups they encountered in their migration to the Water Frontier.





Genesis said:


> IS there any plans to abandon the communist party?
> IS the Vietnam China situation much like the China Soviet situation of the past?
> But from what I can see due to size and population we have not only matched by outperformed the Russians in terms of economy, and it is only a matter of time before we do so on other fronts.
> How does Vietnam see itself? How will Vietnam react, because unless something crazy happens and we go back to cultural revolution China and Vietnam becomes Meiji or post war Japan, there is no way Vietnam will ever surpass China, it's a simple matter of we got 10 times the population and a bunch more land.
> So what is Vietnam's role and future relationship with China? Are we going to be a UK, US relationship?


no, my Chinese friend, it seemed the Viet think they can invite bloodsucker foreign devil people into VN and then one day miraculously the Viet will form their own national companies and somehow out compete already established and entrenched multinationals, they will click their fingers and suddenly produce and dominate in electronics, heavy/light industry, services and everything is fine and dandy 



Rechoice said:


> Don't make same mistake what Champa did in the past when they tried annex Jiaozhi land to them.


I am sure they can work something out with the Chinese my Annam friend
[video]



[/video] 


Viet said:


> Care of your language, you fcking retard! You are pathetic, just good at faking history.
> *Lạc Việt* (雒越), *Âu Lạc* (甌雒/甌駱) are ancient Vietnam. Lac means water, referring to the Red River delta where the Viets lives .
> So now you can run amok.


look here my Annam friend 
The early Chinese sources where this information appears, such as Sima Qian’s Historical Records and Li Daoyuan’s Annotated Classic of Waterways, also contain many names for people who inhabited the area of what is today southern China and northern Vietnam. For instance, they mention such names as Đông Việt/
Dongyue (東甌), Lạc Việt/Luoyue (駱越), Âu Việt/Ouyue (甌越), Tây Âu/Xi’ou (西甌),* Âu Lạc/Ouluo (甌駱)*, and Tây Âu Lạc/Xi Ouluo (西甌駱). In their passages on King An Dương, however, these sources merely mentioned that the people he defeated before coming to power were called the Lạc. Centuries after this information was recorded in Chinese texts, the Vietnamese Complete Book provided more details about King An Dương. It notes that after he conquered the last Hùng king, *he established a kingdom called Âu Hạc.39 This term, Âu Hạc/Ouhao (甌貉), does not appear in any Chinese sources. Indeed, Chinese sources do not provide a name for King An Dương’s kingdom. *Vietnamese today transliterate this name as Âu Lạc rather than Âu Hạc, and argue that the Vietnamese wrote the character, lạc, differently. However, it is still only in Ngô Sĩ Liên’s 15th century Complete Book that this name fi rst appeared. Therefore, there is a great
deal of confusion surrounding this supposed name of King An Dương’s kingdom, as it only appears in a Vietnamese source over 1,500 years after it had supposedly existed, and contains a character which does not accord with any previous historical information.40


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> So now you can run amok.
> there you go again with your swearing, the Viet race is uncivilised as usual, can expect nothing more
> anyways no I did not make up history, I just copied pasted what the professor people opinions, it is not fact ‘Kinh’ was ruled by Chinese for 1000yrs, your main book for ancient history is written in 15th century amigo so how can you know what happened all the way back in 2879BC, look here your own Viet professor wrote this
> 
> 
> can understand the bold sentence? your modern historian try to make it sound like everything that is similar to Chinese was forced upon you during domination period but they seem to forgot that you desperately tried to copy AFTER independence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no, my Chinese friend, it seemed the Viet think they can invite bloodsucker foreign devil people into VN and then one day miraculously the Viet will form their own national companies and somehow out compete already established and entrenched multinationals, they will click their fingers and suddenly produce and dominate in electronics, heavy/light industry, services and everything is fine and dandy
> 
> 
> I am sure they can work something out with the Chinese my Annam friend
> [video]
> 
> 
> 
> [/video]



Idiot Chinese aggressors were beaten and ran away with bloody heads, time to time, Its enough, kid.

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## yue10

it 


EastSea said:


> Idiot Chinese aggressors were beaten and ran away with bloody heads, time to time, Its enough, kid.


it is different times my friend, Hanoi can be demolished without one Chinese step foot over the border


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> S
> 
> I am sure they can work something out with the Chinese my Annam friend
> [video]
> 
> 
> 
> [/video]
> look here my Annam friend


ha ha ha...so now you are running out of arguments and show your stick? what a retard!
will you take yourself a ride on a missile? yeah blow up yourself, that is fun. come on, do it  

this is the official version of Van Mieu (yours is fake, otherwise why don´t you publize your version on Internet?)

Temple of Literature, Hanoi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_The *Temple of Literature* (Văn Miếu, 文廟) is a temple of Confucius in Hanoi, northern Vietnam. The temple hosts the "Imperial Academy" (Quốc Tử Giám, 國子監), Vietnam's first national university. The temple was built in 1070 at the time of King Lý Nhân Tông. It is one of several temples in Vietnam which are dedicated to Confucius, sages and scholars._


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## yue10

Viet said:


> ha ha ha...so now you are running out of arguments and show your stick? what a retard!
> will you take yourself a ride on a missile? yeah blow up yourself, that is fun. come on, do it
> 
> this is the official version of Van Mieu (yours is fake, otherwise why don´t you publize your version on Internet?)
> 
> Temple of Literature, Hanoi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> _The *Temple of Literature* (Văn Miếu, 文廟) is a temple of Confucius in Hanoi, northern Vietnam. The temple hosts the "Imperial Academy" (Quốc Tử Giám, 國子監), Vietnam's first national university. The temple was built in 1070 at the time of King Lý Nhân Tông. It is one of several temples in Vietnam which are dedicated to Confucius, sages and scholars._


my Annam friend, it seemed you are quite angry, speaking the vicious words as usual, I was just showing the video to your comrade what are you speaking about showing stick, read again the quote my Annam friend, it is all from the professors not me, I just copy pasted
I troll properly when get back on computer


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> my Annam friend, it seemed *you are quite angry*, speaking the vicious words as usual, I was just showing the video to your comrade what are you speaking about showing stick, read again the quote my Annam friend, it is all from the *professors *not me, I just copy pasted
> I troll properly when get back on computer


you are the one who resorted to racial slur (Annam pig). Read your own posts! Can you tell me more about your professors (subject in CCP or what)? Not everyone is free to say nonsense. You cannot copy and paste of what one tells and say that is the truth. Use your brain!

by the way, I find it funny to debate with someone who makes fun about our cultures (and some derived from Sinic), when he comes from a country being famous for destroying cultural heritage in the so-called cultural revolution (actually the term *cultural destruction* fits better).


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## anilindia

Which god viet workship ???


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## EastSea

anilindia said:


> Which god viet workship ???




According to Pew Forum figures, most of the Vietnamese practice indigenous religions, worshiping local spirits, gods and mother goddesses (45.3%), as these religions have experienced a revival since the 1980s.

Buddhism is the second-largest religion with 16.4% of the population adhering,

around 8% of the Vietnamese are Christians (mostly Catholics),

and around 30% are religiously unaffiliated. Roman Catholicism, Caodaism, and Hoa Hao are the largest religions after Buddhism.

Smaller minorities of adherents to Hinduism, Islam and Protestantism exist.

Religion in Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think Au Co Mother Godness is played most importance role, base on legendary, she was mother of all Vietnamese.

Statue of Mother Au Co in Camau province.







VHStories: Đền thờ Quốc mẫu Âu Cơ - Cà Mau

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> it
> 
> it is different times my friend, Hanoi can be demolished without one Chinese step foot over the border



Suicidal re-attacks shall be done in China, like Three Georges Dam, nuke power plants, ...etc to be targets for revenge actions.


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## Viet

Genesis said:


> IS there any plans to abandon the communist party?


No, unless such a scenario occurs (I hope not): At a sudden greedy China invades and successfully subjugates Vietnam. A non-communist hero arrives at the scene and expells the dirty Chinese out of the country. He or She will become Emperor of Great Vietnam. So or similar had happened in the past. No joke. Bitter history.


Genesis said:


> IS the Vietnam China situation much like the China Soviet situation of the past?


No, the situation is different. The Soviet Unions collapsed becaused its economy collapsed. There is no real threat that China and Vietnam would share the same fate. Both economies are flourishing.


Genesis said:


> But from what I can see due to size and population we have not only matched by outperformed the Russians in terms of economy, and it is only a matter of time before we do so on other fronts.


If all continues to progress with the pace what you achieved in the last 3 decades, then your rise is unstoppable (and that is not necessary a good sign for Vietnam). Putin wants to revive his empire. He has the tools to achieve: giant landmass, huge natural resources, modern army and smart people. Don´t underestimate the Russians!


Genesis said:


> How does Vietnam see itself?


we are small and live under the shadow of China. That is depressing. Although we have successfully expanded our territory since we started the South March, but it is still too little. 


Genesis said:


> How will Vietnam react, because unless something crazy happens and we go back to cultural revolution China and Vietnam becomes Meiji or post war Japan, there is no way Vietnam will ever surpass China, it's a simple matter of we got 10 times the population and a bunch more land.


In the last 100 years Vietnam suffered a lot under the boots of foreigners. All we wish is peace and prosperity. I hope we both can manage the sea dispute (actually we always had and have all of some sorts of disputes with you in the last 1,000 years, since we became independent).

As for Japan, it was a strategic mistake of Vietnam to follow Chinese model until 19 century (closed doors). If we had adopted Japan model (Meiji), the history would take another road.


Genesis said:


> So what is Vietnam's role and future relationship with China? Are we going to be a UK, US relationship?


If history is a guide, I guess, then Vietnam will behalve to China like we had done under the Ming and Qing dynasties. With a bit modification this time. Vietnam would accept Chinese supremacy in Asia, formally. Instead of paying tributes, we would establish free trades and non-aggression pact. China would honor Vietnam by accepting our dominance in Indochina. You dominate economics, we can play in our backyard. Win-win situation.

I assume a US-UK like relationship is unlikely, but we should never say No.

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## INDIC

@Viet @EastSea who are Tai people.


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## Snomannen

@Viet
There wasn't such thing of Chinese model of "closed doors". It is a unreasonable concept created by westerners especially British who failed to earn $$ from China (the Qing government even earned more from the UK than the UK from Qing before the Opium War).

If China was "closed doors", then the whole Europe was as well. Since every European countries had policy to stand against with each others' influences on international trade.

Japan was really a special case because its political model was smiliar to western countries. Ottoman Turkey and Mughal India were very "open doors" back in that days. You know what their consequences were.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> *40 million Cantonese have their paternal blood lineage from native people, no Han.
> 
> Who are they ?*



Human, mankind, Han people, Cantonese, Chinese.
You are not one of these above for sure. 


Viet said:


> hmmm...I guess it is the same reason similar to why China wanted to annex Vietnam.



All Vassal States of China were considered as part of China, such concept is pretty different with western/ modern concept about "border".
Korea and Vietnam were different. Korea was poor, weak, useless and stupid to the central government, while Vietnam was (much) better.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> @Viet
> There wasn't such thing of Chinese model of "closed doors". It is a unreasonable concept created by westerners especially British who failed to earn $$ from China (the Qing government even earned more from the UK than the UK from Qing before the Opium War).
> 
> If China was "closed doors", then the whole Europe was as well. Since every European countries had policy to stand against with each others' influences on international trade..


Really? I was told after the Qing refused to open haven for trades, the British used cannons.


KirovAirship said:


> Japan was really a special case because its political model was smiliar to western countries. Ottoman Turkey and Mughal India were very "open doors" back in that days. You know what their consequences were.


The British forced Japan to open haven for trades, and they did it. Japan quickly adopted western techniques and became a modernised country at the beginning of 20 century.


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## Viet

INDIC said:


> @Viet @EastSea who are Tai people.


to put it simple, Tai people are those who speak Tai language. And what the hell are they?
Well, they are mostly Thai people today.





_Siamese Tai Dancer_ 


KirovAirship said:


> All Vassal States of China were considered as part of China, such concept is pretty different with western/ modern concept about "border"..


you are too greedy.


KirovAirship said:


> Korea and Vietnam were different. *Korea was poor, weak, useless and stupid* to the central government, while Vietnam was (much) better.


 that is new to me.

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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> Really? I was told after the Qing refused to open haven for trades, the British used cannons.
> 
> The British forced Japan to open haven for trades, and they did it. Japan quickly adopted western techniques and became a modernised country at the beginning of 20 century.



They never refused to open their gate, but they did set for some restrictions as the way we modern countries do nowadays.(You don't easily let outsiders to know and control your country right? Besides the Qing government knew what those westerners did to India and other African, East South Asia people)

"Refusing to open the doors" is a lie/ unfair concept given by the British to Chinese people, and Chinese people adopted/ believed it. That is why they told you so.

You know China was trying to do what Japan did right (洋務運動)? The difference is, China failed.

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## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> Who is Tai people? You are right, they are not Viets, but do they look Cantonese or Southern Han? For me, they look more Thai than Chinese.
> 
> Tai women in China



Those are Dai women from Yunnan. They are a southwestern Tai people, related to other southwestern Tai like Laotians and Thai people.

Dai people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang and Bouyei people are central Tai and Li people are in their own category of Tai people. These people are descendants of the Tai who lived in Nanyue. 

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bouyei people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tai languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






Austro asiatic people came from somewhere in Yunnan, not Guangdong.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> you are too greedy.
> 
> that is new to me.



Being greedy is the way to become the masters of the world, but of course being greedy is not enough, you have to be greedly WISELY. And people wonder why US, China and Russia are so freaking big.



Korea during Ming and Qing Dynasty was really nothing but a useless nation.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Those are Dai women from Yunnan. They are a southwestern Tai people, related to other southwestern Tai like Laotians and Thai people.
> 
> Dai people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang and Bouyei people are central Tai and Li people are in their own category of Tai people. These people are descendants of the Tai who lived in Nanyue.
> 
> Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Bouyei people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Tai languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Austro asiatic people came from somewhere in Yunnan, not Guangdong.



You didn't answer my question:

40 million Cantonese shared paternal blood lineage from Native males, no_Han. What kind of ethnic group they belong to ?

Don't lie that they are Zhuang. because Zhuang people in Canton is less than 1 million.

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> You didn't answer my question:
> 
> 40 million Cantonese shared paternal blood lineage from Native males, no_Han. What kind of ethnic group they belong to ?
> 
> Don't lie that they are Zhuang. because Zhuang people in Canton is less than 1 million.



You should know that people are really tried of your sh!t.



Wholegrain said:


> Do you know how to do math?
> 40% of Guangdong (Cantonese) paternal lineage being native, means that 60% of their paternal lineage is from northern Han people.
> 30% of Zhejiang paternal lineage being native, means that 70% of their paternal lineage is from northern Han.
> That means in both cases, the majority of their paternal ancestry (from their father's side) is from northern Han people.
> That's exactly what it said in the links I posted.
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google knygos
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google knygos






Wholegrain said:


> Over 60-68% of Cantonese have paternal descent from northern Han. Ethnicity in Vietnam and China is traced through the father. Kinh, Han, Miao, Yao, Manchu, Mongol, and Koreans all trace ancestry through the father and ethnicity is inherited from the father. They are called patrilineal and patriarchial societies for a reason. Even today, the Minh Huong and Hoa in Vietnam trace their ancestry through their father. 60% is majority, do you know how to do math?
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books






KirovAirship said:


> You idiot don't even know the ancestors of Northern Han and Southern Han were not all the same. Northern Han people are the posterity of Shatuo, Khitan, Xianbei, Huaxia (posterity of Han Dynasty [natives]) and other ancient Chinese ethnicity, yet Southern Han are the posterity of Baiyue and Northerners (Huaxia/ people immigrated to the south from time to time).


 


> 4. Today, the term Han means not only about a particluar ethnicity, but a synthesis of a variety of nationalities living together within the geographical environment in China. It is a cultural community created in cultural exchange & combination. (translated by KA)
> 
> -- [Hakkan and Taiwan] 江運貴



=================



EastSea said:


> Suicidal re-attacks shall be done in China, like Three Georges Dam, nuke power plants, ...etc to be targets for revenge actions.



So cute.


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## Rechoice

INDIC said:


> @Viet @EastSea who are Tai people.




Thai minority people are living today in North-West mountain area of Vietnam, they immigrated to Vietnam from South China around 1076 AC, then they registered to TonKin Court and to be the legal people of Kingdom.

Người Thái (Việt Nam) – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

Traditional Costume òf Thai People.

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## anilindia

How nomal viet see China and Japan. As fiend or enemy ...


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## yue10

Viet said:


> we are small and live under the shadow of China. That is depressing. Although we have successfully expanded our territory since we started the South March, but it is still too little.


it is incorrect for you to say as 'we' my Annam friend, unless you are the overseas student will return to serve your country you cannot say as we live under the shadow of China, you have ran away from your homelands into the arms of the Germany my friend 



Viet said:


> you are the one who resorted to racial slur (Annam pig). Read your own posts! Can you tell me more about your professors (subject in CCP or what)? Not everyone is free to say nonsense. You cannot copy and paste of what one tells and say that is the truth. Use your brain!
> by the way, I find it funny to debate with someone who makes fun about our cultures (and some derived from Sinic), when he comes from a country being famous for destroying cultural heritage in the so-called cultural revolution (actually the term *cultural destruction* fits better).



you should be the one to use the brain since you are the one to blindly believe in lies, learn your history again my Annam friend 

the people of Red River delta for this time period is Tai, you are Austro Asiatic, a dark skin pure aboriginal of SEA, must be something to do with minority in Cuu Chan


> Based upon degree of diversity, linguistic evidence therefore places *the homeland of Proto Vietic in the interior regions of what is now Borikhamxay and Khammouane Provinces,* with some overflow to the opposite side of the Sai Phou Louang (Annamite) chain, to the north in Nghe An and to the east in Quang Binh, that is, far south of the H6ng plain.
> 
> Furthermore, it is clear from the ethnolinguistic evidence summarized above that the modem *Vietnamese were recent arrivals in the Delta*, and that the movement of Viet-Meuang peoples generally has been from south to north, not the reverse as most histories would have us believe.



this is based on fingerprints or something so we cannot really trusting this but the conclusion sounds usable


> *According to the related historical records, the population history of the Kinh, which we extrapolated also, conforms to the pattern of demic diffusion. In North Vietnam, the early inhabitant is the Luo-Yue of Daic family.* In the Han dynasty, there was a war between the Chinese central government and the Southern Yue government, which resulted in heavy political pressure on the Yue (Daic) population, which lasted into Wu dynasty of the Three States Period. A large number of Daic populations including the Luo-Yue moved westwards to Guizhou, west Guangxi, Laos, and as far as north Thailand. It was nearly empty along Tonkin Bay, including North Vietnam and east Guangxi. In the following, the Jing dynasty and the Southern-Northern States Period, as the northern nomads invaded central China, *the Chinese government ignored Tonkin Bay and left it for the growing Kinh population. Since then, the Kinh appeared in the records of north Vietnam. After a long time of development in the Sui and Tang dynasties, a country of Kinh people was founded during the China’s civil strife in the late Tang dynasty.*




see here the cultural connection between Tai and ancient Chinese


> Maspero also saw certain Tai peoples as representatives of what we might label East Asian antiquity. In an essay entitled “The Society and Religion of the Ancient Chinese and of the Modern Tai”, *Maspero compared the lives, festivals, religion, myths and funeral customs of the Black Tai and White Tai who lived in the mountains between Vietnam and Laos in the early 20th century with the same elements in ancient China. Ultimately, Maspero argued that the world which we can see in ancient Chinese texts like the Classic of Poetry (Shijing) closely resembles the world of the Black Tai and White Tai, and that these two peoples therefore represent a common world of antiquity which subsequently was largely lost to various cultural and social developments.*7 In other words, to Maspero the Tai were an important people, but that importance lay somewhere in the distant past. The parallels which he saw between the life of the Black Tai and White Tai in the mountains of the Indochinese Peninsula and the lifestyle of the ancient Chinese as revealed in the Classic of Poetry were a clear sign of their antiquity.



here more proof Tai was settled in Northern VN according to toponym


> Xu Songshi contributed to this understanding in a 1946 work entitled Research on the Dai, Zhuang and Yue (“Yue” here refers to the Cantonese). *In this study, Xu Songshi points out that there were various place names in southern China and extending into northern Vietnam which came from Zhuang, a Tai language. For instance, he states that there were many place names which began with the character “gu” (古), or “cổ” in Vietnamese, a term which he argues came from Zhuang* and has been interpreted in many ways, from meaning “I,” to a classifi er, to meaning a mountain with no vegetation on it. He also mentions that such place names could be found in the past from Anhui Province, in what is today central China, to Guangxi Province in the southwest, an area which he argues Tai speakers historically inhabited.9 Xu Songshi also cites a work which was published in 1877, Xu Yanxu’s Brief Compilation on Vietnam, which reportedly contains a map of the districts in Vietnam when it was under Chinese control in the early 15th century.10 This map apparently lists place names in what is today northern Vietnam such as the following: Cổ Bàng (古榜), Cổ Lão (古老), Cổ Lễ (古禮), Cổ Dũng (古勇), Cổ Long (古龍), Cổ Phí (古費), Cổ Đằng (古藤), Cổ Hồng (古宏), Cổ Lôi (古雷), Cổ Bình (古平), Cổ Đặng (古鄧), Cổ Xã (古社), and Cổ Nông (古農). Additionally, Xu Songshi states that characters such as tư/si (思), đô/du (都), đa/duo (多), na/na (那), bố/bu (布), and điều/diao (調) also represent Zhuang words, and that in Vietnam during the 15th century there were also place names with these characters, such as the following: Na Ngạn (那岸), Lục Na (陸那), Đa Cẩm (多錦), Đa Dực (多翌), Tư Dung (思容), Điều An (調安), and Bố Chân (布真).11 Unfortunately, Xu Songshi did not state what these other terms might have meant in Zhuang, although anyone familiar with a Tai language can tell that “na/na” is the term for a field. *While Xu Songshi therefore indicated that there was historically a strong Tai presence in the Red River Delta,* he did not provide a clear historical explanation for how this happened.



Lac Viet is the expert in wet rice, Giao Chi was centre for rice production export to other province like Hepu, here it said your Viet learn wet rice cultivation from Tai


> In particular, *he notes that many words in Vietnamese dealing with wet rice agriculture all come from Tày Thái.* For instance, both share a common word for rice = gạo/khẩu [BT, khảu], and they also make the same distinction between two main types of rice: glutinous rice, gạo nếp = khẩu dếp (Tày)/khẩu niêu (Thái) [BT, khảu ón], and regular white rice, gạo tẻ = khẩu te (Tày)/khẩu xẻ (Thái) [BT, khảo sẻ].44 In order to grow wet rice, one needs to be able to control the necessary water. Phạm Đức Dương fi nds that Việt Mường words pertaining to this topic, such as mương phai (“irrigation canal”) [BT, mương = irrigation ditch, phai = dam] and guồng (“waterwheel”) [BT, cuống], come from Tày Thái . *Based on this information, he argues that the Việt Mường must have learned about wet rice agriculture and water control from the Tày Thái.*




the legends of VN to do with Hung Kings and Lac society all derive from Tai words


> Phạm Đức Dương adds that the head of this new super muang was called phò khun in Tai. Here he agrees with Trần Quốc Vượng that the term, “hùng,” in the title *“Hùng king” comes from this Tai term.*
> To quote again, the Complete Book recorded that under the Hùng kings, “the princes were called quan lang, and princesses were called mỵ nương. Offi cials were called bồ chính. From one generation to the next fathers passed [positions] on to their sons. This is called the way of the father [phụ đạo].” *All of these terms are Tai Journal of terms, or more accurately, they are mostly “Sinicized Tai” terms as they combine Tai and Chinese elements.* As for mỵ nương, the first term, “mỵ,” is “mae” (แม่) in Tai and literally means “mother,” whereas the second term, “nang,” means “maiden” and is a Chinese term, “niang” (娘). Similarly, “quan lang” consists of a Chinese term for “offi cial” (官, guan) and another term which means “man” and which was used in offi cial titles in medieval China, but was also used in titles for certain aboriginal peoples in the area of Guangxi. Fan Chengda, for instance, noted that some “savage” headmen were called “langhuo” (郎火).80 Quan lang was used at least from the time of the Tang to refer to low-level offi cials who ruled over aboriginal peoples on behalf of the Chinese in the area of the Red River delta. For instance, a Tang-era text records that for generations members of a family surnamed Phùng served as “barbarian rulers” (夷長, Di trưởng/Yizhang) on the edge of the delta and were called “quan lang.”81 As for “bồ chính,” this term likewise appears to be a hybrid term. The word “bồ” could be the equivalent of either “phu” (ผู้, person) or “pho” (พ่อ, father) in Tai. “Chính,” meanwhile could be “chieng” in Tai, which means “citadel” and comes from the Chinese “cheng” (城). The “phu chieng” or “pho chieng” could therefore
> signify something like the “master of the citadel.” Finally, what the text refers to as the passing of rulership from one generation to the other, or the “way of the father” (phụ đạo), could be a reference to an “elder” or “phu thaw” (ผู้เฒ่า), or to a term which the Black Tai used to refer to their rulers, “phu thaw” (ผู้ท้าว).



movement of Viets and gain help from your Mon-Khmer brothers Chenla and Linyi, 400000 is maybe 40000 or something


> Many questions remain unanswered. The precise dates when the ethnic Vie1namese actually replaced the Tai in the Delta are uncertain, but this must have occurred sometime between the seventh and the ninth centuries.
> In 722 a man named Mai Thuc Loan from a salt-producing village on the Hoan coast southeast ofHa Tinh (southern Nghe An) brought together people from thirty-two provinces, *including Lin-i, Chen-la*, and a hitherto unknown kingdom called Chin-lin ('gold neighbor'), altogether totaling four hundred thousand, and styling himself'the Black Emperor' he marched northward and 'seized all of Annam.'





> *Some historical events appear with such little context that it is impossible to evaluate what exactly happened or what significance they might be imagined to have had*. One such event is the great spasm of violence that broke into the southern Tang frontier in 722 under the leadership of a man remembered in Tang records as the Black Emperor, presumably because he was black. He came from a coastal village at the extreme southern frontier of the Tang Empire, in modern Ha Tinh Province, near Ngang Pass at the Hoanh Son massif. This was not only on the border of Tang with peoples on the southern coast; it was also near the terminus of the main route from the middle part of the Mekong over the mountains through Mu Gia Pass to the coast. According to Tang records, the Black Emperor assembled a host of four hundred thousand, comprised of a multitude of peoples from the mountains, the coasts, and the seas beyond the Tang frontier. What led to this breakdown of Tang frontier vigilance is as mysterious as what may have elicited and enabled the Black Emperor’s leadership. The Black Emperor and his followers marched north and, surprising the fleeing Tang authorities, soon had the entire Protectorate of An Nam under their plundering regime, Tang forces in the north immediately mobilized, marched back into the Protectorate, and slaughtered the Black Emperor and his horde. Forty-five years later, in 767, a somewhat similar episode occurred when people identified in Tang records with terms generally applied to the islands of what is now Indonesia invaded from the sea and briefly overran the Protectorate of An Nam until armies mobilized in the north arrived to expel them.





> *Ai and seven other provinces were established in the basin of the Ma. Taylor regards this territory as a backwater in the center of the protectorate that was least affected by Chinese rule, and therefore 'emerged in the tenth century as the original and most persistent center of the politics of independence'* (p. 173). In ethnolinguistic terms, I would rephrase this to say that Ai, especially the hinterlands, was a vacuum filled eventually by Muimg speakers, the language closest to Vietnamese, whose language and culture exhibit Tai influence as opposed to Chinese.





> At the end of 862, Nan-chao which had been threatening Annam for some time, invaded with a force of fifty thousand men and Giao fell at the beginning of 863. Records state that one hundred and fifty thousand Tang soldiers were killed or captured by Nan-chao and an unknown number fled to the north. *Probably the highest portion was local recruits and it may be assumed that the victory of Nan-chao led to a severe reduction in population in the Delta.* Nan-chao was driven out by Kao P'ien in 866 (Taylor: 239ft). Of interest, in the wake of the Nan-chao war and the weakened condition of Giao, are Taylor's remarks (p. 248) to the effect that the existence of *'two cultural currents' became clear: *( 1) the Tang-Viet Buddhist culture of Giao, militarily dependent upon Tang, and (2) the anti-Tang elements, many of whom had sided with Nanchao and fled into the mountains with the attack of Kao P'ien.2




here the Viet historian said during domination period you are already civilised as should be expected


> When Viet scholars eventually pieced together a history of their kingdom, they argued that the period when Shi Xie governed over Jiaozhi Commandery was the time when the texts and practices which enabled people to develop moral virtue were first taught. Hence, Ngo Si Lien commented that, “Our kingdom became well-versed in the _Classic of Poetry _and _Venerated Documents_, started to practice [Confucian] rites and music, and became a domain of manifest civility starting in the time of King Shi [i.e. Shi Xie].”


but here Song emperor speaking as if you are barbaric savages was never civilised


> Like a stern headmaster, Taizong appealed to Le Hoan to see reason and return to the Chinese fold: "Although your seas have pearls, we will throw them into the rivers, and though your mountains produce gold, we will throw it into the dust. We do not covet your valuables. You fly and leap like savages, we have horse-drawn carriages. You drink through your noses, we have rice and wine.* Let us change your customs. You cut your hair, we wear hats; when you talk, you sound like birds. We have examinations and books. Let us teach you the knowledge of the proper laws ... Do you not want to escape from the savagery of the outer islands and gaze upon the house of civilization? Do you want to discard your garments of leaves and grass *and wear flowered robes embroidered with mountains and dragons? Have you understood?"



"Narrating an Unequal Relationship: How Premodern Viet Literati Explained their Kingdom's Relationship with 'the North'" | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
Tai Words and the Place of the Tai in the Vietnamese Past | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1998origin.pdf
http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1992black.pdf


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## Snomannen

I still can't understand how they define the so-called "Chinese domination of Vietnam", also how could some of them consider Chinese Nanyue Kingdom was the first dynasty of Vietnam.
For me there is no such thing of "Chinese domination of Vietnam", but "Vietnamese mutiny from China". And today is clearly the day of " The X times Vietnamese mutiny from China".


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## yue10

KirovAirship said:


> I still can't understand how they define the so-called "Chinese domination of Vietnam", also how could some of them consider Chinese Nanyue Kingdom was the first dynasty of Vietnam.
> For me there is no such thing of "Chinese domination of Vietnam", but "Vietnamese mutiny from China". And today is clearly the day of " The X times Vietnamese mutiny from China".


they said Chinese domination period because they have the inferiority complex, try to explain everything that was borrowed from Chinese was because of that period, it is simple logic that Viet try to claim Chinese culture is forced on them to hide from the fact they willingly adopt Chinese, ask any of the Viets member here about their history and they will tell you they already were civilised have their own writing script and society before Chinese move in but somehow they lost all of it

Nanyue as belonging to Viet is depending who you are speaking to, some denied it as Viet and others said it as Viet since Zhao Tuo is ruling for the people against Chinese not over them but it is incorrext both ways since it should be considered the Tai Kingdom

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> it is incorrect for you to say as 'we' my Annam friend, unless you are the overseas student will return to serve your country you cannot say as we live under the shadow of China, you have ran away from your homelands into the arms of the Germany my friend
> 
> 
> 
> you should be the one to use the brain since you are the one to blindly believe in lies, learn your history again my Annam friend
> 
> the people of Red River delta for this time period is Tai, you are Austro Asiatic, a dark skin pure aboriginal of SEA, must be something to do with minority in Cuu Chan
> 
> 
> this is based on fingerprints or something so we cannot really trusting this but the conclusion sounds usable
> 
> 
> 
> see here the cultural connection between Tai and ancient Chinese
> 
> 
> here more proof Tai was settled in Northern VN according to toponym
> 
> 
> Lac Viet is the expert in wet rice, Giao Chi was centre for rice production export to other province like Hepu, here it said your Viet learn wet rice cultivation from Tai
> 
> 
> 
> the legends of VN to do with Hung Kings and Lac society all derive from Tai words
> 
> 
> movement of Viets and gain help from your Mon-Khmer brothers Chenla and Linyi, 400000 is maybe 40000 or something
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here the Viet historian said during domination period you are already civilised as should be expected
> 
> but here Song emperor speaking as if you are barbaric savages was never civilised
> 
> 
> "Narrating an Unequal Relationship: How Premodern Viet Literati Explained their Kingdom's Relationship with 'the North'" | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
> Tai Words and the Place of the Tai in the Vietnamese Past | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
> A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
> http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1998origin.pdf
> http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1992black.pdf



In North Vietnam, people say: "Lúa Chiêm".

Champa people can claim that Kinh People learnt from them the *about wet rice agriculture and water control from the Champa peope.* 


yue10 said:


> they said Chinese domination period because they have the inferiority complex, try to explain everything that was borrowed from Chinese was because of that period, it is simple logic that Viet try to claim Chinese culture is forced on them to hide from the fact they willingly adopt Chinese, ask any of the Viets member here about their history and they will tell you they already were civilised have their own writing script and society before Chinese move in but somehow they lost all of it
> 
> Nanyue as belonging to Viet is depending who you are speaking to, some denied it as Viet and others said it as Viet since Zhao Tuo is ruling for the people against Chinese not over them but it is incorrext both ways since it should be considered the Tai Kingdom



Chinese are considered as foreign invaders, aggressors. Enough said. 


anilindia said:


> How nomal viet see China and Japan. As fiend or enemy ...



In this time, China is enemy. Japan is economy counterpart.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Being greedy is the way to become the masters of the world, but of course being greedy is not enough, you have to be greedly WISELY. And people wonder why US, China and Russia are so freaking big..


agreed. But why does China do everything to contain Vietnam (if we try to step out of border)? That is not fair.


KirovAirship said:


> Korea during Ming and Qing Dynasty was really nothing but a *useless nation*.


that is harsh.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> I still can't understand how they define the so-called "Chinese domination of Vietnam", also how could some of them consider Chinese *Nanyue *Kingdom was the first dynasty of Vietnam.
> 
> For me there is no such thing of "Chinese domination of Vietnam", but "Vietnamese mutiny from China". And today is clearly the day of " The X times Vietnamese *mutiny from China*".


well, we consider Nanyue as Vietnamese Kingdom (Triệu Dynasty). The country was part of modern Vietnam today and gained independent from the Han (China) for a long period of time.
Triệu Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LOL...mutiny from China? do you consider us as one of yours? Many of your comrades reject this idea (such as the trollers yue10 or wholegrain try hard to defame us).


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> well, we consider Nanyue as Vietnamese Kingdom (Triệu Dynasty). The country was part of modern Vietnam today and gained independent from the Han (China) for a long period of time.
> Triệu Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> LOL...mutiny from China? do you consider us as one of yours? Many of your comrades reject this idea (such as the trollers yue10 or wholegrain try hard to defame us).



Well the country was part of modern China as well, not to mention its culture was more Chinese, the founder was Chinese and its capital was in China. Also the Han Dynasty didn't represent the 'whole' ancient China. 

Do they~? 
Oh yes for me Vietnam is just another Outer Mongolia~ both of you people were 'independent from China'. You may be independent countries and enjoy having your "freedom", but that doesn't mean that you can have OUR history~


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> agreed. But why does China do everything to contain Vietnam (if we try to step out of border)? That is not fair.
> 
> that is harsh.



Because ancient China always consider Vietnam as a "traditional Chinese territory"? 
Because they have seen what Vietnam have done to the people of Guangdong and Guangxi in Song Dynasty?

Facts are sometimes harsh.


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## Viet

anilindia said:


> How nomal viet see *China* and *Japan*. As fiend or enemy ...


here is my 2cent opinion:

Who is friend and who is foe? yes, both are friend... and enemy.

To start with *Japan*: most Vietnamese admire the Japanese people. We consider them as hard-working and smart people, it is a powerful and rich country. We see them cultural close to ours (sinic influenced). We understand them well and see Japan as a friend.

There is a dark shadow in the past between our countries, when Imperial Japan invaded Vietnam (French-controlled Indochina at that time). Despite many of us died admit hunger caused by famine during occupation, some gave them a plus as Japan supported the re-unification of Vietnam (The French cut Vietnam into three parts: Cokinchina, Annam and Tonking, principle of divide and conquer). But that is luckily long ago, as a young generation born after 1975, most of us have forgotten and forgiven. Japan has helped us very much in the last 20 years to recover from the wars and poverty (they provided most of ODA inflows). Personally I like Japan, too.

*China* is a different story. We have an ambivalent relationship with the Chinese. On one side, we hate them to the bone as they are aggressive and arrogant. Aggressive because they attacked us multiple times, arrogant because they look down on us (for example they boast of the money they possess, although nobody of us is impressed). Chinese are seen as rude, uncivilized and greedy people.

On the other side, we admire Chinese much. They are seen (similar to Japanese people) as smart and hard-working. They are very successful in economics. Their cultures and custom are great, so that we want to copy all. As enemy we fear them most (more than any others). Chinese are huge in numbers. Many see Chinese as close relative. A fight with Chinese is like a confrontation within the family. That hurts all. I like ancient Chinese films (with beautiful girls and mighty hero carrying swords). LOL

Simply put. Sometimes, I wish Vietnam could be an island nation like Japan or the Philippines, protected by a vast Ocean. Or we would build a Vietnamese version of Chinese wall, 20m in height along our common border, like the Berlin Wall during the cold war in Germany. But mostly I wish China and Vietnam could settle all disputes and live in peace and prosperity side by side.

Okay...that is.

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## Snomannen

But Vietnam did invaded and despise other countries (adopted the worldview from China), there is not really a good excuse to call China aggressive and arrogant.

If Vietnam has conquered the whole Indochina after gaining independence from China, that would have been a different story. _Unfortunately_ Vietnam doesn't have the guts and national power like Qin Kingdom and Manchurian had.

In other words, Vietnam has already lost at the starting point.

Anyway, if Vietnam was really being protected by the ocean, are you sure that Vietnam would have become "another Japan", but not "another Philippines"? Or even "worse" - China would have owned three big islands: Taiwan, Hainan and something called 'Vietwan'~


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> But Vietnam did invaded and despise other countries (adopted the worldview from China), there is not really a good excuse to call China aggressive and arrogant.~


you are right, if you see in that way how we acted against our neighbors, then we are aggressive and arrogant, too. LOL


KirovAirship said:


> If Vietnam has conquered the whole Indochina after gaining independence from China, that would have been a different story. _Unfortunately_ *Vietnam doesn't have the guts and national power* like Qin Kingdom and Manchurian had.
> 
> In other words, Vietnam has already lost at the starting point.~


well, we have expanded the territory a bit through our march to the south (nam tien, our motif) as a bid to escape the shadow of China. That alone proves you wrong. When Vietnam was to annex Cambodia, the French came in. Then it was too late. You mention the Qin and Manchu, did you forget we defeated the Mongols (the Yuan)? If we don´t have guts and internal strengh, how can we defeat such an enemy?











Here is a good article about March to the South. That explains a bit.

March to the South - Independence Restored - History - Vietnam - Asia
*Independence Restored, March to the South*

_Under the Ly dynasty Vietnam gradually became a dynamic force in Southeast Asia, and this power increased under the succeeding Tran dynasty. The Tran took power from the Ly in 1225, when the eight-year-old Ly empress transferred power to her new Tran husband. During the remainder of the 13th century, the Tran were preoccupied with the growing power of the Mongols, pastoral warriors from northern Asia. The Mongols completed their conquest of China in 1279 and established a new empire there known as the Yuan dynasty. A few years later, Mongol armies invaded Vietnam in an effort to reincorporate the Red River Valley into China. Under the leadership of General Tran Hung Dao, the Vietnamese vigorously resisted; after several bitter battles they defeated the invading forces and drove them back across the border._

_While the Vietnamese maintained their guard to the north, an area of equal and growing interest lay to the south. For centuries, the Vietnamese state had been restricted to its heartland in the Red River Valley and the mountainous perimeter. Determined to obtain an outlet for their growing population, in the 10th century Vietnamese rulers began turning their attention south to the kingdom of Champa, a seafaring state inhabited by Malay-speaking peoples. The two states competed bitterly for advantage. On several occasions, Cham armies broke through Vietnamese defenses and occupied the Vietnamese capital. More frequently, Vietnamese troops were victorious, and they gradually drove the kingdom of Champa to the south. In the 15th century Vietnamese forces captured the Cham capital, south of present-day Da Nang, and virtually destroyed the kingdom. _

_For the next several generations, Vietnam continued its historic “march to the south,” wiping up the remnants of the Cham kingdom and gradually penetrating the marshy flatlands of the Mekong Delta. There it confronted a new foe, the Khmer kingdom of Angkor, which had once been the most powerful state in mainland Southeast Asia. By the late 16th century, however, it was in a state of decline and unable to offer sustained resistance to Vietnamese encroachment. A hundred years later, Vietnam occupied the lower Mekong Delta and began advancing westward, threatening to transform the disintegrating Khmer state into a mere protectorate._



KirovAirship said:


> Anyway, if Vietnam was really being protected by the ocean, are you sure that Vietnam would have become "another Japan", but not "another Philippines"? Or even "worse" - China would have owned three big islands: Taiwan, Hainan and something called 'Vietwan'~


ha ha ha...do you know it is very much difficult to invade an island, or launch an invasion from the sea? Take the invasion of Normandy in WWII. The allied invasion fleet consisted of 6,939 vessels: 1,213 warships, 4,126 transport vessels and 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels (source wiki). Besides the Allies had air superiority over the landing zone.

Under the rule of Nguyen dynasty at the beginning of 19 century, Vietnam had a great naval fleet.


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> You didn't answer my question:
> 
> 40 million Cantonese shared paternal blood lineage from Native males, no_Han. What kind of ethnic group they belong to ?
> 
> Don't lie that they are Zhuang. because Zhuang people in Canton is less than 1 million.



Their ancestors were Zhuang people who adopted Cantonese language and Han culture after millions of Han migrants moved to Guangdong from northern China. They gave up their own Zhuang Tai language and culture.

Over 60 million Cantonese are have Han paternal lineage (O3a) and they were the majority, so they absorbed the Zhuang minority into their culture and language.

The "native male" lineage in Guangdong is O1 and O2a which is shared with Zhuang people. O1 is also an austronesian haplogroup (related to Taiwan aboriginals), who may have lived in southern China before the Han expansion south. O3a is northern Han, which most Cantonese have.

大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】

Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structu... [Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF



> Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006 Dec;33(12):1060-72.
> Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structure of Zhuang populations.
> Chen J, Li H, Qin ZD, Liu WH, Lin WX, Yin RX, Jin L, Pan SL.
> Source
> Department of Pathophysiology, Guangxi Medical University, Nanning 530021, China.
> Abstract
> *Zhuang, the largest ethnic minority population in China, is one of the descendant groups of the ancient Bai-Yue. *Linguistically, Zhuang languages are grouped into northern and southern dialects. To characterize its genetic structure, 13 East Asian-specific Y-chromosome biallelic markers and 7 Y-chromosome short tandem repeat (STR) markers were used to infer the haplogroups of Zhuang populations. *Our results showed that O*, O2a, and O1 are the predominant haplogroups in Zhuang. Frequency distribution and principal component analysis showed that Zhuang was closely related to groups of Bai-Yue origin and therefore was likely to be the descendant of Bai-Yue. *The results of principal component analysis and hierarchical clustering analysis contradicted the linguistically derived north-south division. Interestingly, a west-east clinal trend of haplotype frequency changes was observed, which was supported by AMOVA analysis that showed that between-population variance of east-west division was larger than that of north-south division. O* network suggested that the Hongshuihe branch was the center of Zhuang. Our study suggests that there are three major components in Zhuang. The O* and O2a constituted the original component; later, O1 was brought into Zhuang, especially eastern Zhuang; and finally, northern Han population brought O3 into the Zhuang populations.



Tai peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> While Chinese scholarship continues to place the "Zhuang–Dong languages" among the Sino-Tibetan family, other linguists treat the Tai languages as a separate family. Another family with which they have been linked is the Austronesian languages, which dispersed from Taiwan after a migration from the mainland. However the Austro-Thai hypothesis uniting these families is now supported by few scholars.[11] However genetic evidence also points out Zhuang possesses a very high frequency of Haplogroup O2 with most of them being subclade O2a making it the most dominant marker, a marker which they share with Austro-Asiatic, the other portion of O2 belongs to subclade O2a1. Zhuangs also have prevalent frequencies of O1 which links them with Austronesian, but O1 is at much lower rate compared to O2a and only slightly higher than O2a1. Haplogroup O2 in Taiwan aborigines is almost completely non-existent, but they exhibit very high frequencies of O1. This suggests that after the separation of Tai and Austronesian, Tai-Kadai speakers assimilated mostly Austro-Asiatic people into their population.[12]



Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The area of China south of the Nanling Mountains, known as the Lingnan (roughly modern Guangxi and Guangdong), was originally home to peoples known to the Chinese as the Hundred Yue. Large-scale Chinese migration to the area began after the Qin conquest of the region in 214 BC.[7] Successive waves followed at times of upheaval in North China, such as the falls of the Han, Tang and Song dynasties.[7] The most popular route was via the Xiang River, which the Qin had connected to the Li River by the Lingqu Canal, and thence into the valley of the Xi Jiang (West River).[8] A secondary route followed the Gan River and then the Bei Jiang (North River) into eastern Guangdong.[9] Yue speakers were later joined by Hakka speakers following the North River route, and Min speakers arriving by sea.[10]
> 
> After the fall of Qin, the Lingnan area was part of the independent state of Nanyue for about a century, before being incorporated in the Han empire.[9] Following the collapse of the Tang dynasty, much of the Yue area became part of the Southern Han, one of the longest-lived states of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, between 917 and 971.[9]
> 
> *The waves of Chinese migration also assimilated huge numbers of aborigines, with the result that today's Yue-speaking population is descended from both groups.[11] The colloquial layers of Yue dialects have a number of elements influenced by the Tai languages formerly spoken widely in the area and still spoken by people such as the Zhuang.[12]*



If the 40 million people adopt Zhuang Baiyue language and culture, they are still outnumbered by over 60 million Cantonese, and Zhuang people already have an autonomous region in Guangxi.

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## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> well, we consider Nanyue as Vietnamese Kingdom (Triệu Dynasty). The country was part of modern Vietnam today and gained independent from the Han (China) for a long period of time.
> Triệu Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> LOL...mutiny from China? do you consider us as one of yours? Many of your comrades reject this idea (such as the trollers yue10 or wholegrain try hard to defame us).



Nanyue was not a Vietnamese Kingdom. Nanyue was a Chinese ruled, majority Tai Kingdom, with the Vietnamese as a conquered minority in the Red River delta. 

Au Lac and Van Lang were Tai Kingdoms, with Tai overlords ruling over conquered Vietnamese after the Tai invaded the Red River Delta from Guangdong.

The descendants of those Tai people are the Zhuang. Most of Nanyue was in Tai land in Guangdong and Guangxi.

This is a map of where Tai people lived.






This is where Nanyue started off






This is how nanyue enlarged after the Chinese and Tai conquered the Vietnamese






This was the homeland of Vietnamese.






Even today, Vietnamese speaking areas and native Tai speaking areas show who was there first.

Vietnamese-






Tai-








Viet said:


> you are right, if you see in that way how we acted against our neighbors, then we are aggressive and arrogant, too. LOL
> 
> well, we have expanded the territory a bit through our march to the south (nam tien, our motif) as a bid to escape the shadow of China. That alone proves you wrong. When Vietnam was to annex Cambodia, the French came in. Then it was too late. You mention the Qin and Manchu, did you forget we defeated the Mongols (the Yuan)? If we don´t have guts and internal strengh, how can we defeat such an enemy?



Tran dynasty is Chinese.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

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## Fattyacids

Viet said:


> *China* is a different story. We have an ambivalent relationship with the Chinese. On one side, we hate them to the bone as they are aggressive and arrogant. Aggressive because they attacked us multiple times, arrogant because they look down on us (for example they boast of the money they possess, although nobody of us is impressed).* Chinese are seen as rude, uncivilized and greedy people.*
> 
> On the other side, we admire Chinese much. They are seen (similar to Japanese people) as smart and hard-working. They are very successful in economics. *Their cultures and custom are great, so that we want to copy all.* As enemy we fear them most (more than any others). Chinese are huge in numbers. Many see Chinese as close relative. A fight with Chinese is like a confrontation within the family. That hurts all. I like ancient Chinese films (with beautiful girls and mighty hero carrying swords). LOL
> 
> Simply put. Sometimes, I wish Vietnam could be an island nation like Japan or the Philippines, protected by a vast Ocean. Or we would build a Vietnamese version of Chinese wall, 20m in height along our common border, like the Berlin Wall during the cold war in Germany. But mostly I wish China and Vietnam could settle all disputes and live in peace and prosperity side by side.
> 
> Okay...that is.



So are Vietnamese rude, uncivilized and greedy too, since you copied our culture and custom?


----------



## Snomannen

Viet said:


> you are right, if you see in that way how we acted against our neighbors, then we are aggressive and arrogant, too. LOL
> 
> well, we have expanded the territory a bit through our march to the south (nam tien, our motif) as a bid to escape the shadow of China. That alone proves you wrong. When Vietnam was to annex Cambodia, the French came in. Then it was too late. You mention the Qin and Manchu, did you forget we defeated the Mongols (the Yuan)? If we don´t have guts and internal strengh, how can we defeat such an enemy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a good article about March to the South. That explains a bit.
> 
> March to the South - Independence Restored - History - Vietnam - Asia
> *Independence Restored, March to the South*
> 
> _Under the Ly dynasty Vietnam gradually became a dynamic force in Southeast Asia, and this power increased under the succeeding Tran dynasty. The Tran took power from the Ly in 1225, when the eight-year-old Ly empress transferred power to her new Tran husband. During the remainder of the 13th century, the Tran were preoccupied with the growing power of the Mongols, pastoral warriors from northern Asia. The Mongols completed their conquest of China in 1279 and established a new empire there known as the Yuan dynasty. A few years later, Mongol armies invaded Vietnam in an effort to reincorporate the Red River Valley into China. Under the leadership of General Tran Hung Dao, the Vietnamese vigorously resisted; after several bitter battles they defeated the invading forces and drove them back across the border._
> 
> _While the Vietnamese maintained their guard to the north, an area of equal and growing interest lay to the south. For centuries, the Vietnamese state had been restricted to its heartland in the Red River Valley and the mountainous perimeter. Determined to obtain an outlet for their growing population, in the 10th century Vietnamese rulers began turning their attention south to the kingdom of Champa, a seafaring state inhabited by Malay-speaking peoples. The two states competed bitterly for advantage. On several occasions, Cham armies broke through Vietnamese defenses and occupied the Vietnamese capital. More frequently, Vietnamese troops were victorious, and they gradually drove the kingdom of Champa to the south. In the 15th century Vietnamese forces captured the Cham capital, south of present-day Da Nang, and virtually destroyed the kingdom. _
> 
> _For the next several generations, Vietnam continued its historic “march to the south,” wiping up the remnants of the Cham kingdom and gradually penetrating the marshy flatlands of the Mekong Delta. There it confronted a new foe, the Khmer kingdom of Angkor, which had once been the most powerful state in mainland Southeast Asia. By the late 16th century, however, it was in a state of decline and unable to offer sustained resistance to Vietnamese encroachment. A hundred years later, Vietnam occupied the lower Mekong Delta and began advancing westward, threatening to transform the disintegrating Khmer state into a mere protectorate._
> ha ha ha...do you know it is very much difficult to invade an island, or launch an invasion from the sea? Take the invasion of Normandy in WWII. The allied invasion fleet consisted of 6,939 vessels: 1,213 warships, 4,126 transport vessels and 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels (source wiki). Besides the Allies had air superiority over the landing zone.
> 
> Under the rule of Nguyen dynasty at the beginning of 19 century, Vietnam had a great naval fleet.



Indeed I am right, every single nation in the world are aggressive and arrogant. There isn't such thing of "peaceful nation" nor "Victims in bloody millions generations". There are only weak and strong nations. Even the so-called peaceful Tibetan had been invading the Chinese mainland for several times for no good reason, until they have castrated themselves by adopting some sort of stupid religion.

Every time I hear about people (no matter if they are Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese...) claiming themselves as "peaceful people", I just want to slap them in the faces and throw them out of the window from 50th floor.

I was actually not talking about defending, but expanding.
The Qin Kingdom have conquered several Kingdoms, made its land several times bigger and founded the first Empire in China. The Qing dynasty with only a few of population early have conquered the whole 12 Han provinces, the whole Mongolian territory, Tibet, Taiwan and defeated one of the most dangerous enemy Junggar.
I know that Vietnam is bigger than it was, but has it ever made such achievement like Chinese did. Like, conquer Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar. Just like what Qin people did?

Nah~ Lets not take it to modern that fast. I mean, if Vietnam was really being protected by the ocean, will Vietnam become a "civilized Japan", or an "uncivilized Philippines (not part of China)/ Taiwan (part of China)"~?

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Their ancestors were Zhuang people who adopted Cantonese language and Han culture after millions of Han migrants moved to Guangdong from northern China. They gave up their own Zhuang Tai language and culture.
> 
> Over 60 million Cantonese are have Han paternal lineage (O3a) and they were the majority, so they absorbed the Zhuang minority into their culture and language.
> 
> The "native male" lineage in Guangdong is O1 and O2a which is shared with Zhuang people. O1 is also an austronesian haplogroup (related to Taiwan aboriginals), who may have lived in southern China before the Han expansion south. O3a is northern Han, which most Cantonese have.
> 
> 大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】
> 
> Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structu... [Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF
> 
> 
> 
> Tai peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> If the 40 million people adopt Zhuang Baiyue language and culture, they are still outnumbered by over 60 million Cantonese, and Zhuang people already have an autonomous region in Guangxi.



Don't lie. kid.

Guangdong population: 104,3 million people, where servey has been made.
40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 41.72 million people (no Hans).
Zhuang people 0.7 % X 104.3 = 0.731 million.

Guangdong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people in Guangxi is 32% X 46 million = 14,72 million only. Note that Guangxi is not included in to servey.

if its any case, Chinese tried lie, look at here: 41.72 million -14, 72 = 23 million.
*Which ethnic group is 26 million native Cantonese, kid* ?

Guangxi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as human being. Its nothing inferior if you are native Cantonese or mixed people. PLS claim your true identity.

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## StarCraft_ZT

Wholegrain said:


> 大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】



Nice article! How about people from Henan Province? It's my hometown. Belong to中原官话区东部父系?

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## EastSea

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Nice article! How about people from Henan Province? It's my hometown. Belong to中原官话区东部父系?



Sorry for jump in.

You are true Han 中原 汉人 .

It's very funny, some mixed boy NanMan on forum tried show of themselves as Han_ren.


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## Rechoice

Wholegrain said:


> Nanyue was not a Vietnamese Kingdom. Nanyue was a Chinese ruled, majority Tai Kingdom, with the Vietnamese as a conquered minority in the Red River delta.
> 
> Au Lac and Van Lang were Tai Kingdoms, with Tai overlords ruling over conquered Vietnamese after the Tai invaded the Red River Delta from Guangdong.
> 
> The descendants of those Tai people are the Zhuang. Most of Nanyue was in Tai land in Guangdong and Guangxi.
> 
> This is a map of where Tai people lived.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where Nanyue started off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is how nanyue enlarged after the Chinese and Tai conquered the Vietnamese*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was the homeland of Vietnamese.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even today, Vietnamese speaking areas and native Tai speaking areas show who was there first.
> 
> Vietnamese-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tai-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tran dynasty is Chinese.
> 
> A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
> 
> Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books



You are enslaving by Hans up to now.

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Don't lie. kid.
> 
> Guangdong population: 104,3 million people, where servey has been made.
> 40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 41.72 million people (no Hans).
> Zhuang people 0.7 % X 104.3 = 0.731 million.
> 
> Guangdong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang people in Guangxi is 32% X 46 million = 14,72 million only. Note that Guangxi is not included in to servey.
> 
> if its any case, Chinese tried lie, look at here: 41.72 million -14, 72 = 23 million.
> *Which ethnic group is 26 million native Cantonese, kid* ?
> 
> Guangxi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> as human being. Its nothing inferior if you are native Cantonese or mixed people. PLS claim your true identity.



I wonder how could a "person" being so amazingly stupid and can't even understand simple language. A low-IQ, uneducated loser can't even get the main point and keep doing his pitiful pointless little math, punching a scarecrow and blaming people are "lying". 



Wholegrain said:


> *Their ancestors were Zhuang people who adopted Cantonese language and Han culture after millions of Han migrants moved to Guangdong from northern China. They gave up their own Zhuang Tai language and culture. *
> 
> Over 60 million Cantonese are have Han paternal lineage (O3a) and they were the majority, so they absorbed the Zhuang minority into their culture and language.
> 
> The "native male" lineage in Guangdong is O1 and O2a which is shared with Zhuang people. O1 is also an austronesian haplogroup (related to Taiwan aboriginals), who may have lived in southern China before the Han expansion south. O3a is northern Han, which most Cantonese have.





KirovAirship said:


> KirovAirship said: ↑
> You idiot don't even know the ancestors of Northern Han and Southern Han were not all the same. *Northern Han people are the posterity of Shatuo, Khitan, Xianbei, Huaxia (posterity of Han Dynasty [natives]) and other ancient Chinese ethnicity, yet Southern Han are the posterity of Baiyue and Northerners (Huaxia/ people immigrated to the south from time to time)*.
> 
> 4. Today,* the term Han means not only about a particluar ethnicity, but a synthesis of a variety of nationalities living together within the geographical environment in China.* It is a cultural community created in cultural exchange & combination. (translated by KA)
> -- [Hakkan and Taiwan] 江運貴



Really, just go kill yourself and claim your true identity - an uncivilized monkey. 


Rechoice said:


> You are enslaving by Hans up to now.


And you too, go jump over the window with your relatives Eatsh!t.

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Sorry for jump in.
> 
> You are true Han 中原 汉人 .
> 
> It's very funny, some mixed boy NanMan on forum tried show of themselves as Han_ren.



I have been telling you many times, send you "True Han" or "Mixed people" theory to the UNESCO and have them to accept your trash from your stupid brain, your own imagination land. Until then what you are "talking" about are all *bullshit*, I repeat, *all . bull. shit.* 



StarCraft_ZT said:


> Nice article! How about people from Henan Province? It's my hometown. Belong to中原官话区东部父系?



Now you can see how these stupid Nanmam monkeys tried everything to sow discord on the internet~

"Oh I don't want to hurt Nanyue people blah blah blah..."
"Nanyue people are poor they can't have their true identity blah blah blah..."
"Nanyue people are enslaving by evil Han people blah blah blah..."
"Han people are evil and bad blah blah blah..."
then suddenly...
"Oh great you are a "true Han" blah blah blah..."
"Hey hey my "true Han" friend, you see that? those Nanman are funny they call themselves Han blah blah..."

Ladies and Gentlemen, applause to our glorious EatShxt, the greatest clown and the most prefect eunuch in human history (and he even defamed Chinese people are two-faces, how cute) . 



China calls on Japan to respect historical facts | Page 11

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## EastSea

KirovAirship said:


> I have been telling you many times, send you "True Han" or "Mixed people" theory to the UNESCO and have them to accept your trash from your stupid brain, your own imagination land. Until then what you are "talking" about are all *bullshit*, I repeat, *all . bull. shit.*
> 
> 
> 
> Now you can see how these stupid Nanmam monkeys tried everything to sow discord on the internet~
> 
> "Oh I don't want to hurt Nanyue people blah blah blah..."
> "Nanyue people are poor they can't have their true identity blah blah blah..."
> "Nanyue people are enslaving by evil Han people blah blah blah..."
> "Han people are evil and bad blah blah blah..."
> then suddenly...
> "Oh great you are a "true Han" blah blah blah..."
> "Hey hey my "true Han" friend, you see that? those Nanman are funny they call themselves Han blah blah..."
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen, applause to our glorious EatShxt, the greatest clown and the most prefect eunuch in human history (and he even defamed Chinese people are two-faces, how cute) .
> 
> 
> 
> China calls on Japan to respect historical facts | Page 11



don't follow my comments, dirty kid.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> don't follow my comments, dirty kid.



I never _follow _your retarded comments since they are all bullsh!t, stupid Nanman~ 
Who do you think you are to tell me what I should do, hrr? Silent and bow down to us human you pitiful fake Kinh Nanman monkey.


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## Viet

...you forget to mention that there are humans living on Mars, and perhaps Taiwanese and Tai settlers, too. Oh maybe they are muslims 



Wholegrain said:


> Nanyue was not a Vietnamese Kingdom. Nanyue was a Chinese ruled, *majority Tai *Kingdom, with the Vietnamese as a conquered minority in the Red River delta.


 source?


Wholegrain said:


> Au Lac and Van Lang were *Tai *Kingdoms, with Tai overlords ruling over conquered Vietnamese after the Tai invaded the Red River Delta from Guangdong.


 source?


Wholegrain said:


> Tran dynasty is *Chinese*.


 source?


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## INDIC

EastSea said:


> Don't lie. kid.
> 
> Guangdong population: 104,3 million people, where servey has been made.
> 40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 41.72 million people (no Hans).
> Zhuang people 0.7 % X 104.3 = 0.731 million.
> 
> Guangdong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang people in Guangxi is 32% X 46 million = 14,72 million only. Note that Guangxi is not included in to servey.
> 
> if its any case, Chinese tried lie, look at here: 41.72 million -14, 72 = 23 million.
> *Which ethnic group is 26 million native Cantonese, kid* ?
> 
> Guangxi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> as human being. Its nothing inferior if you are native Cantonese or mixed people. PLS claim your true identity.



Why is China trying to ban Cantonese language. 

Southern Chinese oppose ban on Cantonese TV

Anger Over Anti-Cantonese Moves in China

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## Viet

Fattyacids said:


> So are Vietnamese rude, uncivilized and greedy too, since you copied our culture and custom?


You are wrong, mate. We just imitate the good side of China. We are less rude, less aggressive and less uncivilized. That is the reason why Viets are seen in more favorable light than Chinese. 

In short, Vietnam is the good side of China.


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## Snomannen

INDIC said:


> Why is China trying to ban Cantonese language.
> 
> Southern Chinese oppose ban on Cantonese TV
> 
> Anger Over Anti-Cantonese Moves in China



There is no such thing of "banning" Cantonese, they may sometimes make it too far but they are not "banning" it for no good reason. But people do think that the CCP does wish to make the next generation have less Cantonese influence. Just like what the first emperor of Qin Dynasty did - linguistic unification, but in slow motion.


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## rott

Viet said:


> You are wrong, mate. We just imitate the good side of China. We are less rude, less aggressive and less uncivilized. That is the reason why Viets are seen in more favorable light than Chinese.
> 
> In short, Vietnam is the good side of China.



Question: Why do some Ethnic Vietnamese pretend to be white living in the USA?
One prime example is = Gambit. 
Also claim he would kill his own kind if a war breaks out between USA and Vietnam.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> You are wrong, mate. We just imitate the good side of China. We are less rude, less aggressive and less uncivilized. That is the reason why Viets are seen in more favorable light than Chinese.
> 
> In short, Vietnam is the good side of China.



I don't really think that things like eunuch and 華夷之分 are good side of China~
Nah, just admit that Vietnam is a mini China~ Just like how the old Vietnamese called themselves 小中華/中國 lil'China and even 漢 Han~ And lil'China is still a part of evil China~


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## yue10

EastSea said:


> *In North Vietnam, people say: "Lúa Chiêm".
> Champa people can claim that Kinh People* learnt from them the about wet rice agriculture and water control from the Champa peope.**
> 
> Chinese are considered as foreign invaders, aggressors. Enough said.
> 
> In this time, China is enemy. Japan is economy counterpart.


now what is your terrorist mentality speaking about



Viet said:


> well, we consider Nanyue as Vietnamese Kingdom (Triệu Dynasty). The country was part of modern Vietnam today and gained independent from the Han (China) for a long period of time.
> Triệu Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> LOL...mutiny from China? do you consider us as one of yours? Many of your comrades reject this idea (such as the trollers yue10 or wholegrain try hard to defame us).


look here my Annam friend, just stop your nonsense claims of any history before 8th century ok, Nanyue have nothing to do with your Annam fiends, you are AA was never settled in the delta during that period, you are late comer from Cuu Chan or something like that, the delta people in Giao Chi are Tai, stop your criminality Annam history thiefs



> Based upon degree of diversity, linguistic evidence therefore places *the homeland of Proto Vietic in the interior regions of what is now Borikhamxay and Khammouane Provinces,* with some overflow to the opposite side of the Sai Phou Louang (Annamite) chain, to the north in Nghe An and to the east in Quang Binh, that is, far south of the H6ng plain.
> 
> Furthermore, it is clear from the ethnolinguistic evidence summarized above that the modem *Vietnamese were recent arrivals in the Delta*, and that the movement of Viet-Meuang peoples generally has been from south to north, not the reverse as most histories would have us believe.





> *Ai and seven other provinces were established in the basin of the Ma. Taylor regards this territory as a backwater in the center of the protectorate that was least affected by Chinese rule, and therefore 'emerged in the tenth century as the original and most persistent center of the politics of independence'* (p. 173). In ethnolinguistic terms, I would rephrase this to say that Ai, especially the hinterlands, was a vacuum filled eventually by Muimg speakers, the language closest to Vietnamese, whose language and culture exhibit Tai influence as opposed to Chinese.





KirovAirship said:


> Indeed I am right, every single nation in the world are aggressive and arrogant. There isn't such thing of "peaceful nation" nor "Victims in bloody millions generations". There are only weak and strong nations. Even the so-called peaceful Tibetan had been invading the Chinese mainland for several times for no good reason, until they have castrated themselves by adopting some sort of stupid religion.
> *Every time I hear about people (no matter if they are Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese...) claiming themselves as "peaceful people", I just want to slap them in the faces and throw them out of the window from 50th floor.*
> I was actually not talking about defending, but expanding.
> The Qin Kingdom have conquered several Kingdoms, made its land several times bigger and founded the first Empire in China. The Qing dynasty with only a few of population early have conquered the whole 12 Han provinces, the whole Mongolian territory, Tibet, Taiwan and defeated one of the most dangerous enemy Junggar.
> I know that Vietnam is bigger than it was, but has it ever made such achievement like Chinese did. Like, conquer Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar. Just like what Qin people did?
> Nah~ Lets not take it to modern that fast. I mean, if Vietnam was really being protected by the ocean, will Vietnam become a "civilized Japan", or an "uncivilized Philippines (not part of China)/ Taiwan (part of China)"~?


usually I did not like to agree with people but yes you are the speaking the truth especially about these Yuon crocodiles
here murderous Yuon crimes against humanity
[video]


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## Wholegrain

INDIC said:


> Why is China trying to ban Cantonese language.
> 
> Southern Chinese oppose ban on Cantonese TV
> 
> Anger Over Anti-Cantonese Moves in China



Cantonese language is not banned, their tv broadcasts got replaced by Mandarin, for the same reason France marginalized and drove Occitan language to near extinction.

Occitan language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Occitan Language

Occitan and French are both Romance languages descended from Latin, but although Occitan is even closer to Latin than French, but France decided to make French the official language since its spoken around the capital of Paris. 

Occitan is closer to latin so it was called Langue d'oc while French was influenced by Germanic languages so it was called "Langues d'oïl"

Cantonese is closer phonetically and grammatically to ancient Chinese (middle Chinese) than Mandarin, but Mandarin was chosen as the official language since it is spoken around the capital. Both Cantonese and Mandarin are Sinitic (Chinese) languages and are descended from Middle Chinese and Old Chinese.

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books

The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books

It explicitly says here Cantonese is the closest to ancient Chinese and that Cantonese are descended from Chinese migration from northern China.

Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books












 


StarCraft_ZT said:


> Nice article! How about people from Henan Province? It's my hometown. Belong to中原官话区东部父系?



Yes, Henan looks like its on the eastern part of the plains, the western part is Shaanxi and Gansu.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Don't lie. kid.
> 
> Guangdong population: 104,3 million people, where servey has been made.
> 40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 41.72 million people (no Hans).
> Zhuang people 0.7 % X 104.3 = 0.731 million.
> 
> Guangdong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang people in Guangxi is 32% X 46 million = 14,72 million only. Note that Guangxi is not included in to servey.
> 
> if its any case, Chinese tried lie, look at here: 41.72 million -14, 72 = 23 million.
> *Which ethnic group is 26 million native Cantonese, kid* ?
> 
> Guangxi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> as human being. Its nothing inferior if you are native Cantonese or mixed people. PLS claim your true identity.



Over 60 million Cantonese have Han paternal lineage, Y chromosome haplogroup Oa3. 

40 million Cantonese with native lineage like Haplogroup O1, share the same haplogroup with the Zhuang people, because their ancestors were Zhuang people who gave up their own Tai language, and adopted Cantonese Han language and culture.

Malays has absorbed many ethnic groups, such as Bugis people who adopted Malay language and culture and became Malay people.

You are the liar, I said *their ancestors* were Zhuang, not that they identify as Zhuang today.



Wholegrain said:


> Their ancestors were Zhuang people who adopted Cantonese language and Han culture after millions of Han migrants moved to Guangdong from northern China. They gave up their own Zhuang Tai language and culture.
> 
> Over 60 million Cantonese are have Han paternal lineage (O3a) and they were the majority, so they absorbed the Zhuang minority into their culture and language.
> 
> The "native male" lineage in Guangdong is O1 and O2a which is shared with Zhuang people. O1 is also an austronesian haplogroup (related to Taiwan aboriginals), who may have lived in southern China before the Han expansion south. O3a is northern Han, which most Cantonese have.
> 
> 大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】
> 
> Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structu... [Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2006 Dec;33(12):1060-72.
> Y-chromosome genotyping and genetic structure of Zhuang populations.
> Chen J, Li H, Qin ZD, Liu WH, Lin WX, Yin RX, Jin L, Pan SL.
> Source
> Department of Pathophysiology, Guangxi Medical University, Nanning 530021, China.
> Abstract
> Zhuang, the largest ethnic minority population in China, is one of the descendant groups of the ancient Bai-Yue. Linguistically, Zhuang languages are grouped into northern and southern dialects. To characterize its genetic structure, 13 East Asian-specific Y-chromosome biallelic markers and 7 Y-chromosome short tandem repeat (STR) markers were used to infer the haplogroups of Zhuang populations. Our results showed that O*, O2a, and O1 are the predominant haplogroups in Zhuang. Frequency distribution and principal component analysis showed that Zhuang was closely related to groups of Bai-Yue origin and therefore was likely to be the descendant of Bai-Yue. The results of principal component analysis and hierarchical clustering analysis contradicted the linguistically derived north-south division. Interestingly, a west-east clinal trend of haplotype frequency changes was observed, which was supported by AMOVA analysis that showed that between-population variance of east-west division was larger than that of north-south division. O* network suggested that the Hongshuihe branch was the center of Zhuang. Our study suggests that there are three major components in Zhuang. The O* and O2a constituted the original component; later, O1 was brought into Zhuang, especially eastern Zhuang; and finally, northern Han population brought O3 into the Zhuang populations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tai peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While Chinese scholarship continues to place the "Zhuang–Dong languages" among the Sino-Tibetan family, other linguists treat the Tai languages as a separate family. Another family with which they have been linked is the Austronesian languages, which dispersed from Taiwan after a migration from the mainland. However the Austro-Thai hypothesis uniting these families is now supported by few scholars.[11] However genetic evidence also points out Zhuang possesses a very high frequency of Haplogroup O2 with most of them being subclade O2a making it the most dominant marker, a marker which they share with Austro-Asiatic, the other portion of O2 belongs to subclade O2a1. Zhuangs also have prevalent frequencies of O1 which links them with Austronesian, but O1 is at much lower rate compared to O2a and only slightly higher than O2a1. Haplogroup O2 in Taiwan aborigines is almost completely non-existent, but they exhibit very high frequencies of O1. This suggests that after the separation of Tai and Austronesian, Tai-Kadai speakers assimilated mostly Austro-Asiatic people into their population.[12]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The area of China south of the Nanling Mountains, known as the Lingnan (roughly modern Guangxi and Guangdong), was originally home to peoples known to the Chinese as the Hundred Yue. Large-scale Chinese migration to the area began after the Qin conquest of the region in 214 BC.[7] Successive waves followed at times of upheaval in North China, such as the falls of the Han, Tang and Song dynasties.[7] The most popular route was via the Xiang River, which the Qin had connected to the Li River by the Lingqu Canal, and thence into the valley of the Xi Jiang (West River).[8] A secondary route followed the Gan River and then the Bei Jiang (North River) into eastern Guangdong.[9] Yue speakers were later joined by Hakka speakers following the North River route, and Min speakers arriving by sea.[10]
> 
> After the fall of Qin, the Lingnan area was part of the independent state of Nanyue for about a century, before being incorporated in the Han empire.[9] Following the collapse of the Tang dynasty, much of the Yue area became part of the Southern Han, one of the longest-lived states of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, between 917 and 971.[9]
> 
> The waves of Chinese migration also assimilated huge numbers of aborigines, with the result that today's Yue-speaking population is descended from both groups.[11] The colloquial layers of Yue dialects have a number of elements influenced by the Tai languages formerly spoken widely in the area and still spoken by people such as the Zhuang.[12]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If the 40 million people adopt Zhuang Baiyue language and culture, they are still outnumbered by over 60 million Cantonese, and Zhuang people already have an autonomous region in Guangxi.
Click to expand...




Viet said:


> ...you forget to mention that there are humans living on Mars, and perhaps Taiwanese and Tai settlers, too. Oh maybe they are muslims
> 
> source?
> source?
> source?



History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia - James B. Minahan - Google Books

Cantonese has been influenced by Tai and not Vietnamese, the former inhabitants of Guangdong were Tai speakers.

China calls on Japan to respect historical facts

Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books

The Power of Words: Literacy and Revolution in South China, 1949-95 - Glen Peterson - Google Books

Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books

The Languages of China - S. Robert Ramsey - Google Books

Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages - Christopher Moseley - Google Books






These are the sources for the Tran dynasty.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> now what is your terrorist mentality speaking about
> 
> 
> look here my Annam friend, just stop your nonsense claims of any history before 8th century ok, Nanyue have nothing to do with your Annam fiends, you are AA was never settled in the delta during that period, *you are late comer from Cuu Chan or something like that, the delta people in Giao Chi are Tai,* stop your criminality Annam history thiefs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usually I did not like to agree with people but yes you are the speaking the truth especially about these Yuon crocodiles
> here murderous Yuon crimes against humanity
> [video]



you troll.

" Jiao Zhi" or 交趾 is word original from Vietnamese words, "kẻ" it mean "People" and "tao" for " I'm". Kinh people were called by Muong people as " Keo" people. Viet - Muong is a sub-group in Mon-Khmer ethic group. It was recorded in Chinese Han Ji as 交趾 or 交阯. It's got a meaning "Location of Keo People". "趾" is a meaning of "foundation or base".

This word 交趾 hoặc 交阯 existed from time of Zhao Tuo and Nan Yue Guo 207 BC.


----------



## Viet

rott said:


> Question: Why do some Ethnic Vietnamese pretend to be white living in the USA?
> One prime example is = *Gambit*.
> Also claim he would kill his own kind if a war breaks out between USA and Vietnam.


there is no such thing, a Viet claiming to be a Caucasian. Gambit is no exemption. I don´t believe he says he is white or has white mentality. Gambit is a Southerner. He hates communist and perhaps Northerner, too. But many Southerner dislike Northerner and vice versa. That is nothing spectacular. In the US-VN war, there was no single known event that a father killed his son, just because the father belonged to the other side. I don´t know if Gambit is serious about of what he says.

Vietnam has a sad historical record, where both sides killed each other. One famous example: the civil war between the Nguyen (South) and Trinh (North). Both families fought each other over a century, both claimed to be the real successor of the Le dynasty. The war ended with the victory of the Trinh.

a bit of history:

One of the keys leading to the victory of the Trinh was they were more successful to get weapons and adopted modern technologies from the western countries, especially the Dutch. Plus the Trinh were more assertive. Although the Nguyen got support from the Portuguese and hold the front for a long time, but at the end of day they lost the war as they were weakened by another mighty Viet enemy in the Western front (Tay Son).






_Upper:Goa style arquebuses- probably were widespread in Vietnam during the 17th century (wiki)_


Trịnh–Nguyễn War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## rott

Viet said:


> there is no such thing, a Viet claiming to be a Caucasian. Gambit is no exemption. I don´t believe he says he is white or has white mentality. Gambit is a Southerner. He hates communist and perhaps Northerner, too. But many Southerner dislike Northerner and vice versa. That is nothing spectacular. In the US-VN war, there was no single known event that a father killed his son, just because the father belonged to the other side. I don´t know if Gambit is serious about of what he says.
> 
> Vietnam has a sad historical record, where both sides killed each other. One famous example: the civil war between the Nguyen (South) and Trinh (North). Both families fought each other over a century, both claimed to be the real successor of the Le dynasty. The war ended with the victory of the Trinh.
> 
> One of the keys leading to the victory of the Trinh was they were more successful to get weapons and adopted modern technologies from the western countries, especially the Dutch. Plus the Trinh were more assertive. Although the Nguyen got support from the Portuguese and hold the front for a long time, but at the end of day they lost the war as they were weakened by another mighty Viet enemy in the Western front (Tay Son).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Upper:Goa style arquebuses- probably were widespread in Vietnam during the 17th century (wiki)_
> 
> 
> Trịnh–Nguyễn War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Err, I suppose you misunderstood my question. 

China and Chinese fought each other too in the civil war. But my question was, would any Viet attack against his own "Native" country while pledging allegiance with another?


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## Viet

rott said:


> Err, I suppose you misunderstood my question.
> 
> China and Chinese fought each other too in the civil war. But my question was, would any Viet attack against his own "Native" country while pledging allegiance with another?


well, for example there were Viets serving in the French army fighting the Vietminh (first Indochina war).


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## rott

Viet said:


> well, for example there were Viets serving in the French army fighting the Vietminh (first Indochina war).


I am not trying to be rude here. But just trying to understand something. 
Would you?


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## Viet

rott said:


> I am not trying to be rude here. But just trying to understand something.
> Would you?


be rude and ask your question...be more specific


----------



## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> I don't really think that things like eunuch and 華夷之分 are good side of China~
> Nah, just admit that Vietnam is a mini China~ Just like how the old Vietnamese called themselves 小中華/中國 lil'China and even 漢 Han~ And lil'China is still a part of evil China~


eunuch was a terrible invention. What is the meaning of 華夷之分?

ha ha ha ...Little China 小中國  

The Vietnamese author Nguyen Huy Thiep once writes, _"The most significant characteristics of this country (Vietnam) are its smallness and weakness. She is like a virgin girl raped by Chinese civilization. The girl concurrently enjoys, despises and is humiliated by the rape." _


----------



## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Over 60 million Cantonese have Han paternal lineage, Y chromosome haplogroup Oa3.
> 
> *40 million Cantonese with native lineage like Haplogroup O1, share the same haplogroup with the Zhuang people, because their ancestors were Zhuang people who gave up their own Tai language, and adopted Cantonese Han language and culture.*
> 
> Malays has absorbed many ethnic groups, such as Bugis people who adopted Malay language and culture and became Malay people.
> 
> You are the liar, I said *their ancestors* were Zhuang, not that they identify as Zhuang today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?
> 
> Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia - James B. Minahan - Google Books
> 
> Cantonese has been influenced by Tai and not Vietnamese, the former inhabitants of Guangdong were Tai speakers.
> 
> China calls on Japan to respect historical facts
> 
> Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books
> 
> The Power of Words: Literacy and Revolution in South China, 1949-95 - Glen Peterson - Google Books
> 
> Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books
> 
> The Languages of China - S. Robert Ramsey - Google Books
> 
> Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages - Christopher Moseley - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the sources for the Tran dynasty.
> 
> A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
> 
> Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books



I copy and past what you admitted:

*"40 million Cantonese with native lineage like Haplogroup O1, share the same haplogroup with the Zhuang people, because their ancestors were Zhuang people who gave up their own Tai language, and adopted Cantonese Han language and culture."*

What is evil ancestor worshiping culture in China today ? when 40 % people in Canton and 37% people in Zhe Jiang denied their true ancestors. The rest is mixed.

So why I said that Cantonese is fake Hans, its truth.


----------



## Snomannen

Viet said:


> eunuch was a terrible invention. What is the meaning of 華夷之分?
> 
> ha ha ha ...Little China 小中國
> 
> The Vietnamese author Nguyen Huy Thiep once writes, _"The most significant characteristics of this country (Vietnam) are its smallness and weakness. She is like a virgin girl raped by Chinese civilization. The girl concurrently enjoys, despises and is humiliated by the rape." _



華夷之分 = Distinguishing the so-called "barbarians and civilized mainlander"

More like a lil' girl ran away from the house called China. In this House everybody sometimes united, sometimes raping each others, sometimes partly united and partly raped other groups. However, no matter how far that lil' girl ran away, people of the house still want to grab her back and rape her.


----------



## yue10

Rechoice said:


> you troll.
> " Jiao Zhi" or 交趾 is word original from Vietnamese words, "kẻ" it mean "People" and "tao" for " I'm". Kinh people were called by Muong people as " Keo" people. Viet - Muong is a sub-group in Mon-Khmer ethic group. It was recorded in Chinese Han Ji as 交趾 or 交阯. It's got a meaning "Location of Keo People". "趾" is a meaning of "foundation or base".
> This word 交趾 hoặc 交阯 existed from time of Zhao Tuo and Nan Yue Guo 207 BC.


my Annam friend, I think you are mistaken, where this Jiaozhi = "Location of Keo People" come from? if it is the Viet professors then it could not be trusted
if Jiao = ke, tao what is the meaning Jiaozhou 交州? province of Kinh people?




according the Viet Jiaozhi was already existed before Zhao Tuo in the Van Lang


> Giao Chỉ was the name of one _bộ_, an administrative level equivalent to a district, of the former nation Văn Lang during the Hùng Vương era. Its territory included present-day Hà Nội and the land on the right bank of the Red River.


ke is also the word in the Tai meaning people too my Amman friend


> White Tai: Ke (adult, for peoples around 25-40 — and for this he cites Georges Minot, “Dictionnaire Tay-blanc Francaise,” BEFEO 40 (1940), 92.) [This is not very convincing because they also have the word kun for person/people (p. 102).]
> Red Tai: Po ke (male person) and Me ke (female person) — R. Robert, _Notes sur les Tay Deng de Lang Chang, Thanh-hoa, Annam_ (Hanoi: Impr. d’Extrême-Orient, 1941), 128. I checked this and saw that there is also the term ke mo, “sorcerer” (p. 129).


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## Viet

The Germans translate Jiaozhi (交趾 _Giao Chỉ) as "Das Land der Barfüssiger" the country of barefoot people._


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> my Annam friend, I think you are mistaken, where this Jiaozhi = "Location of Keo People" come from? if it is the Viet professors then it could not be trusted
> if Jiao = ke, tao what is the meaning Jiaozhou 交州? province of Kinh people?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> according the Viet Jiaozhi was already existed before Zhao Tuo in the Van Lang
> 
> ke is also the word in the Tai meaning people too my Amman friend



I copy and past the post of Rye (page 39 in this thread)

"The author of this paper opines that the Mon-Khmer-speaking groups originates from southern,especially southwestern China.These groups were closely related with the Pu recorded in ancient Chinese chronicles.It should be emphasized,however,that *most of these groups had emigrated into mainland Southeast Asia before the Pu was recorded in Chinese chronicles*.Of today's Mon-Khmer-speaking groups *only those stretching in northern Mainland Southeast Asia and southwestern China,e.g.the northern sub-groups of Mon-Khmer-speaking groups are the lineal descendants of the Pu mentioned in ancient Chinese chronicles*."

http://www.sealang.net/archives/mks/pdf/35:183-187.pdf







and more:



> Bộ Giao Chỉ là một cấp hành chính của nhà Tây Hán là lãnh thổ cũ của nước Nam Việt, được đặt chính thức vào năm 106 TCN, gồm 9 quận là Giao Chỉ, Cửu Chân, Nhật Nam (Nhật Nam được thành lập sau khi nhà Tây Hán chiếm được thêm vùng đất phía nam quận Cửu Chân), *Đạm Nhĩ, Châu Nhai (Đạm Nhĩ và Châu Nhai nay thuộc đảo Hải Nam), Nam Hải, Hợp Phố, Uất Lâm, Thương Ngô (nay thuộc Quảng Tây và Quảng Đông)*[1].
> 
> Năm 203 nhà Đông Hán đổi *bộ Giao Chỉ* thành Giao Châu trên cơ sở đề nghị của thứ sử Trương Tân và Sĩ Nhiếp, thái thú quận Giao Chỉ. Tên gọi của Bộ Giao Chỉ tồn tại được 300 năm (106 TCN - 203).



Giao Chỉ – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

It's stated that Jiao Zhi from 106 BC, of Xi Han Dynasty covered most of territory of North Vietnam and NanYue Guo of Zhao Tuo included: Guangdong, Guangxi and Hainan.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> 華夷之分 = Distinguishing the so-called "barbarians and civilized mainlander"


are mainlanders civilized? not when they travel abroad. It is like when the French occupied Vietnam, they were rude and aggressive. But at home, they were civilized and handsome.


KirovAirship said:


> More like a lil' girl ran away from the house called China. In this House everybody sometimes united, sometimes raping each others, sometimes partly united and partly raped other groups. However, no matter how far that lil' girl ran away, people of the house still want to grab her back and rape her.


you are hilarious. Nguyen Huy Thiep wrote in prose, the word "rape" should describe Vietnam´s complicate relationship with China.


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## yue10

EastSea said:


> I copy and past the post of Rye (page 39 in this thread)
> "The author of this paper opines that the Mon-Khmer-speaking groups originates from southern,especially southwestern China.These groups were closely related with the Pu recorded in ancient Chinese chronicles.It should be emphasized,however,that *most of these groups had emigrated into mainland Southeast Asia before the Pu was recorded in Chinese chronicles*.Of today's Mon-Khmer-speaking groups *only those stretching in northern Mainland Southeast Asia and southwestern China,e.g.the northern sub-groups of Mon-Khmer-speaking groups are the lineal descendants of the Pu mentioned in ancient Chinese chronicles*."
> http://www.sealang.net/archives/mks/pdf/35:183-187.pdf


 
I already seen this Rye, they have copied pasted from the nerd burger girl off different site but who is said this?


EastSea said:


> You copied and pst too much.
> *Vietnamese, Kinh people were native people in South East Asia, descended from Mon-Khmer migrants from the center of southeast asia to South China and and to North Vietnam in ancient time,* when Thai people and laotiens were also living in South China.


 
I did not trusting these genetic stuff but this said 02a native of SEA ok, another said it was originate in SEA then disperse from there but both did not say anything about Southern China, keep your fantasies for another day my Annam friend


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> are mainlanders civilized? not when they travel abroad. It is like when the French occupied Vietnam, they were rude and aggressive. But at home, they were civilized and handsome.
> 
> you are hilarious. Nguyen Huy Thiep wrote in prose, the word "rape" should describe Vietnam´s complicate relationship with China.




I mean Vietnam did adopt Chinese concept (even Japanese had) of distinguishing people of the world into so-called "barbarians and civilized mainlander" 華夷之別.

And the word "rape" can also describe the countless wars in China as well, don't you think?


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> I already seen this Rye, they have copied pasted from the nerd burger girl off different site but who is said this?
> 
> 
> I did not trusting these genetic stuff but this said 02a native of SEA ok, another said it was originate in SEA then disperse from there but both did not say anything about Southern China, keep your fantasies for another day my Annam friend



Our old history book stated that north point of Van Lang reached to Dongding Lake in Mainland China.


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## yue10

EastSea said:


> Our old history book stated that north point of Van Lang reached to Dongding Lake in Mainland China.


 
then why it lost so much territory?


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## Viet

yue10, choose your country flags!


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Our old history book stated that north point of Van Lang reached to Dongding Lake in Mainland China.



And none of those people living in southern China were Kinh.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> And none of those people living in southern China were Kinh.



read more hereunder, the story that north point of Van Lang ( of Kinh people) reached to Dongding lake in China is truth.








> "Genetic Links of Mon-Khmer and Hmong-Mien Peoples Confirmed by Chinese researchers, confirms that close genetic ties of Mon-Khmer (a.k.a. Austro-Asiatic when the Munda of India are also included) and Hmong-Mien peoples, at least in the patriline,...
> 
> *There are 147 Mon-Khmer languages* are spoken by more than 90 million people, mostly in Southeast Asia, of *which the dominant languages of Vietnam,* Laos and Cambodia are the best known (there are isolated pockets elsewhere).
> 
> There are 38 Hmong-Mien languages spoken by about 13 million people, of whom 12 million are in Southern China and the rest are in Southeast Asia, in separated linguistic islands across that region.
> 
> *A genetically based conclusion that the Hmong-Mien peoples are an offshoot of the Mon-Khmer peoples,*



Dispatches From Turtle Island: Genetic Links of Mon-Khmer and Hmong-Mien Peoples Confirmed
 
and more


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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> Over 60 million Cantonese have Han paternal lineage, Y chromosome haplogroup Oa3.
> 
> 40 million Cantonese with native lineage like Haplogroup O1, share the same haplogroup with the Zhuang people, because their ancestors were Zhuang people who gave up their own Tai language, and adopted Cantonese Han language and culture.
> 
> Malays has absorbed many ethnic groups, such as Bugis people who adopted Malay language and culture and became Malay people.
> 
> You are the liar, I said *their ancestors* were Zhuang, not that they identify as Zhuang today.
> 
> 
> History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?
> 
> Ethnic Groups of South Asia and the Pacific: An Encyclopedia - James B. Minahan - Google Books
> 
> Cantonese has been influenced by Tai and not Vietnamese, the former inhabitants of Guangdong were Tai speakers.
> 
> China calls on Japan to respect historical facts
> 
> Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books
> 
> The Power of Words: Literacy and Revolution in South China, 1949-95 - Glen Peterson - Google Books
> 
> Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books
> 
> The Languages of China - S. Robert Ramsey - Google Books
> 
> Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages - Christopher Moseley - Google Books
> 
> These are the sources for the Tran dynasty.
> 
> A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
> 
> Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books


You are just a *clown*! I wonder why you don´t go to a circus and entertain the people there.

I asked you why you argued the world (Vietnam included) was overcrowded by Tai people in ancient times and what you do: you posted endless web links. Did you read the contents at least? You talked of Tai Kingdom. Where did it locate?

*Tai*wan?


----------



## ManUNITEDglory

EastSea said:


> Moron, I copy and past here for you, study more, kid:
> 
> 
> 
> Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ;Wiki stated that Mandarin and Cantonese in one family of language only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Wiki stated that there are two languages.
> 
> 
> *History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam? | Page 8*
> 
> Population of Cantonese in Quangdong province is around 100 millions.
> 
> 40 % Cantonese shared native paternal bloodline = 40 Million native people NanYue in according to your theory that paternal lineage should decide the identity of each ethnic group. It should be 40 million Zhuang people in Canton.
> 
> I reminder you that Zhoang people in Quangdong is 0.7 %, less than 1 million only.
> 
> In case of 80 % Cantonese shared native maternal bloodline, understood that they are included above mentioned 40 % posses-ed paternal blood lineage, it mean 40 million Cantonese are native people, 20 million are mixed people, the rest amount to be a Han immigrants, to be 20 %, or in other wording 20 million Cantonese are mixed and 20 million pure Han people living today in Quangdong.
> 
> In case of 100 % of Cantonese are mixed, you don't shared same bloodline with Han Chinese.
> 
> Any case, there is confirmed by Chinese experts that: in China is existed two group of Han people: *Southern Han and Northern Han.*




*NO NO NO

It means all Cantonese are mixture of East Asian and Southeast Asian, and the average Cantonese are 48% Han + 52% baiyue

The study shows there is no pure blood Baiyue or Han Chinese





* What matters is the bottom part in the study. The yellow represents East Asian/Siberian mongoloid admixture and brown southern ethnic minority Mongoloid. As you can see Cantonese are 27 - 35% East Asian on average but are 46-49% Han Chinese. Some of the yellow could come from Siberians such as the Mongolian/Jin dynasty invasion so it's not entirely east Asian.

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## Wholegrain

Viet said:


> You are just a *clown*! I wonder why you don´t go to a circus and entertain the people there.
> 
> I asked you why you argued the world (Vietnam included) was overcrowded by Tai people in ancient times and what you do: you posted endless web links. Did you read the contents at least? You talked of Tai Kingdom. Where did it locate?
> 
> *Tai*wan?



All the sources make it clear that Guangdong was inhabited by Tai people. They say nothing about Vietnamese people. Nanyue was inhabited by Tai people related to the Zhuang. Is that too hard to comprehend?



ManUNITEDglory said:


> *NO NO NO
> 
> It means all Cantonese are mixture of East Asian and Southeast Asian, and the average Cantonese are 48% Han + 52% baiyue
> 
> The study shows there is no pure blood Baiyue or Han Chinese
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * What matters is the bottom part in the study. The yellow represents East Asian/Siberian mongoloid admixture and brown southern ethnic minority Mongoloid. As you can see Cantonese are 27 - 35% East Asian on average but are 46-49% Han Chinese. Some of the yellow could come from Siberians such as the Mongolian/Jin dynasty invasion so it's not entirely east Asian.



1. siberians and Mongols have different autosomnal DNA from east asians like Han Chinese, so they would NOT be the same color

2. That image is from the study on "Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation" and it says nothing about Siberians and northeast asians.

http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/journals/0002-9297/PIIS0002929709004716.mmc1.pdf

Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation



> Figure 3.
> 
> Estimated Population Structure by STRUCTURE for K = 2 and K = 3
> 
> Each individual is represented by a thin vertical line, and each province is demarcated by a thick vertical black line. The provinces are arranged from north to south, with JPT on the extreme left, representing the northernmost locality, to Liaoning, the northernmost province of China investigated in this study. The Guangdong individuals were grouped into the three dialect groups of Teochew, Hakka and Cantonese. These were then followed by the samples from the two metropolitan cities of Beijing (represented by CHB) and Shanghai, as well as the overseas Chinese community in Singapore. In K = 2, the northern provinces are clearly anchored by the JPT, with a huge membership of northern samples (represented by the yellow segment). The northern membership decreases gradually down to the southern provinces, which show a strong membership of southern samples (represented by the brown segment). At K = 3, JPT is clearly separated from the Han Chinese samples. The analysis revealed a demarcation of north-central-south similar to that shown by Figure 2. The Beijing, Shanghai and Singapore samples showed a clear mixture of southern (long brown lines) and northern (shorter brown lines) individuals, as compared to the provincial samples. The three dialect samples from the Guangdong province were also different from each other, with Teochew being more similar to individuals from the provinces of Hunan and Cantonese being the most southern representative.

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## ManUNITEDglory

Wholegrain said:


> All the sources make it clear that Guangdong was inhabited by Tai people. They say nothing about Vietnamese people. Nanyue was inhabited by Tai people related to the Zhuang. Is that too hard to comprehend?
> 
> 
> 
> 1. siberians and Mongols have different autosomnal DNA from east asians like Han Chinese, so they would NOT be the same color
> 
> 2. That image is from the study on "Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation" and it says nothing about Siberians and northeast asians.
> 
> http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/journals/0002-9297/PIIS0002929709004716.mmc1.pdf
> 
> Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation
> 
> Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation





You know what I find funny is that even your own Chinese wiki editted that Cantonese are malaysians or baiyue not han

*------> **廣府民系 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书*

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## ChineseTiger1986

The non-Han admixture from Cantonese is not just Baiyue.


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## Wholegrain

ManUNITEDglory said:


> You know what I find funny is that even your own Chinese wiki editted that Cantonese are malaysians or baiyue not han
> 
> *------> **廣府民系 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书*



I find it even more funny that someone was editing the article a few hours ago to add that information without any sources, AKA your troll account.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=廣府民系&diff=29235298&oldid=29235049

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## ManUNITEDglory

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The non-Han admixture from Cantonese is not just Baiyue.



South Chinese are mixture of North Han and Southern ethnic minorities. Cantonese are basically no different to Southern Chinese in the same way Southern Indians from India all have heavy North Indian admixture from paternal lines ( aside from the low caste )

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Our old history book stated that north point of Van Lang reached to Dongding Lake in Mainland China.



How many times you need to pull out this crappy map? 


ManUNITEDglory said:


> South Chinese are mixture of North Han and Southern ethnic minorities. Cantonese are basically no different to Southern Chinese in the same way Southern Indians from India all have heavy North Indian admixture from paternal lines ( aside from the low caste )



Not all South Chinese are same, some South Chinese are only "South Chinese" by culture, yet they are genetically North Chinese.

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## ManUNITEDglory

Wholegrain said:


> I find it even more funny that someone was editing the article a few hours ago to add that information without any sources, AKA your troll account.
> 
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=廣府民系&diff=29235298&oldid=29235049




I didn't edit shit, there was a argument between Hong Kong people and Chinese on another forum so I went to check it out. Than there was this argument between Cantonese vs Mandarin, both of them talk of themselves as if they were distinct races. So I went to check it and found out it says Cantonese people are malays hahaha. 


Although it really surprised me to know that China is similar to India in terms of historical, geography, genetics aside from some differences

North Chinese and North Indians basically have the same history: countless invasions and conquered and with some DNA from foreign invaders.

South Chinese and South Indians were both called barbarians, but only few times conquered by foreign invaders and both have heavy Northern admixture through paternal lines with some southern.

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## Fattyacids

ManUNITEDglory said:


> You know what I find funny is that even your own Chinese wiki editted that Cantonese are malaysians or baiyue not han
> 
> *------> **廣府民系 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书*




Cantonese are malaysians? 

You, along with some dimwitted vietnamese and indian trolls have no idea about @Wholegrain qualification. Your half baked knowledge from wiki is not going to cut it, don't embarrass yourself further.

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## ManUNITEDglory

Fattyacids said:


> Cantonese are malaysians?
> 
> You, along with some dimwitted vietnamese and indian trolls have no idea about @Wholegrain qualification. Don't embarrassing yourself further.




That is what it says when I used google translator to edit the wikipedia in English.

Although Malaysians are genetically are genetically Southeast Asian race they also have 10-20% Indian/South Asian blood from both maternal and paternal.


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## Fattyacids

ManUNITEDglory said:


> That is what it says when I used google translator to edit the wikipedia in English.
> 
> Although Malaysians are genetically are genetically Southeast Asian race they also have 10-20% Indian/South Asian blood from both maternal and paternal.




So you admitted it, you use wiki and google translate, LOL!

10% of Malaysia population are Indians, but very few Malays have south asian blood.

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## ManUNITEDglory

Fattyacids said:


> So you admitted it, you use wiki and google translate, LOL!
> 
> 10% of Malaysia population are Indians, but very few Malays have south asian blood.



Yes I did, how else would I know what the heck was written? it's very easy to do.

And no, every Malaysian have Indian blood but from 5-20%


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## ManUNITEDglory

EastSea said:


> What kind of job has he qualified ? 5 cent commentator ?
> 
> He said 40 million Cantonese with patriline bloodlinedge are Zhuang, but Zhuang people are registered by China Govt is only 0.7 million in Guangdong province.
> 
> Who is liar here ? Dr. Wholegain or China Goverment ?



100 million Cantonese. 60% are Han Chinese from paternal while maternal is 20%


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> What kind of job has he qualified ? 5 cent commentator ?
> 
> He said 40 million Cantonese with patriline bloodlinedge are Zhuang, but Zhuang people are registered by China Govt is only 0.7 million in Guangdong province.
> 
> Who is liar here ? Dr. Wholegain or China Goverment ?



Poor dumb Viet baboon, I said those 40 million Cantonese with O1, who are outnumbered by over *60 MILLION Cantonese carrying northern Han O3a*, were Tai people like the Zhuang who were ASSIMILATED by the northern Han migrants who outnumbered them by tens of millions.

Dumb ape

Perspectives on the Yi of Southwest China - Google Books



> nority spoken languages with varieties of Chinese. There is evidence that substantial populations of Zhuang-Dong- (Thai-) language speakers were thus assimilated into the Yue (Cantonese) over several millennia, and in the last millennium ...



Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books



> The early Han settlers came into contact with the indigenous tribes of the region and gradually assimilated many of them. ... That many colloquial words in the Yue dialects (as well as in other groups of Chinese dialects) do not have standard ...In searching for the sources of colloquial words in the Yue dialects, a number of scholars have identified phonosemantically similar words in Tai languages of the region and have proposed that some of the colloquial words in Yue form an ancient Rai substratum..



Daic is another name for Tai

Handbuch Der Orientalistik - George van Driem - Google Books



> Yet beginning with the Qfn dynasty in the third century BC, incursive Chinese elites increasingly imposed their language and culture on the indigenous Daic populations of the south. Now the Cantonese are referred to as the Yue, though 'Yue' was originally the designation of the Daic peoples already resident in southern China whom the Chinese assimilated during their colonisation of the south. Precisely the opposite ...[/quore]
> 
> Phonology of Cantonese - Oi-kan Yue Hashimoto - Google Books

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## Wholegrain

ManUNITEDglory said:


> I didn't edit shit, there was a argument between Hong Kong people and Chinese on another forum so I went to check it out. Than there was this argument between Cantonese vs Mandarin, both of them talk of themselves as if they were distinct races. So I went to check it and found out it says Cantonese people are malays hahaha.
> 
> 
> Although it really surprised me to know that China is similar to India in terms of historical, geography, genetics aside from some differences
> 
> North Chinese and North Indians basically have the same history: countless invasions and conquered and with some DNA from foreign invaders.
> 
> South Chinese and South Indians were both called barbarians, but only few times conquered by foreign invaders and both have heavy Northern admixture through paternal lines with some southern.



Says the dumbass who claims 6% of C3 in all of northern China means "heavy siberian admixture". I think your mathematics work in revese, so 94% is less than 6% in your brain.

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## ManUNITEDglory

Wholegrain said:


> Says the dumbass who claims 6% of C3 in all of northern China means "heavy siberian admixture". I think your mathematics work in revese, so 94% is less than 6% in your brain.




You don't have the brains to understand

6-12% on male side C3 and in some freaking cities and provinces of Han Chinese on the north is 18 - 23% and this is not including maternal line which is 5 - 10%
There is Manchus O2b in north Chinese 3-6%


Add them all So a total of 15-28% with some going as 32-39%. How is that not heavy?


----------



## Wholegrain

ManUNITEDglory said:


> You don't have the brains to understand
> 
> 6-12% on male side C3 and in some freaking cities and provinces of Han Chinese on the north is 18 - 23% and this is not including maternal line which is 7 - 10%
> There is Manchus O2b in north Chinese 3-6%
> 
> 
> So a total of 20-30%. How is that not heavy?



Wrong. In certain cities there were high concentrations of foreigners living there. The Tang Emperors deported captive princes from the Gokturk Khanate to Xi'an, and hundreds of thousands of central asians moved to Xi'an and millions to Gansu, Ningxia, and Qinghai, where they became ancestors of the Hui, Salar, and Dongxiang. There is a big Hui communict in Xi'an.

The entire north part of the original city of Beijing was populated by Manchu bannermen (aka the "Tartar City"), and Liaoning was also full of Manchu bannermen. After the fall of the Qing, the bannermen suddenly lost all of their stipends and many did not even speak Manchu anymore, they worshiped Chinese religion so they just started identifying as Han. They already assimilated and couldn't speak Manchu in the 19th century before the Qing fell, only their stipends and separeat living quarters stopped them from assimilating before that.

This is like saying the eastern United States is heavily Arab by looking at the state of Michigan.........

When looking at the entire northern Han population together, C3 and O2b don't even appear to register.


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## ManUNITEDglory

Wholegrain said:


> Wrong. In certain cities there were high concentrations of foreigners living there. The Tang Emperors deported captive princes from the Gokturk Khanate to Xi'an, and hundreds of thousands of central asians moved to Xi'an and millions to Gansu, Ningxia, and Qinghai, where they became ancestors of the Hui, Salar, and Dongxiang. There is a big Hui communict in Xi'an.
> 
> The entire north part of the original city of Beijing was populated by Manchu bannermen (aka the "Tartar City"), and Liaoning was also full of Manchu bannermen. After the fall of the Qing, the bannermen suddenly lost all of their stipends and many did not even speak Manchu anymore, they worshiped Chinese religion so they just started identifying as Han. They already assimilated and couldn't speak Manchu in the 19th century before the Qing fell, only their stipends and separeat living quarters stopped them from assimilating before that.
> 
> This is like saying the eastern United States is heavily Arab by looking at the state of Michigan.........
> 
> When looking at the entire northern Han population together, C3 doesn't appear and and O2 barely registers on the chart.




Why the hell do you still keep posting that same genetic graph? what the difference does it make if they were recently assimilated or not? all North chinese samples have heavy admixture that are similar to modern Mongolians/Manchus


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## Wholegrain

ManUNITEDglory said:


> Why the hell do you still keep posting that same genetic graph? what the difference does it make if they were recently assimilated or not? The point is all North Han samples have heavy admixture that are similar to modern Mongolians/Manchus



Wrong. You just pulled examples of genetic tests done on a few dozen people from Xi'an, Beijing, Liaoning.


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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> All the sources make it clear that *Guangdong was inhabited by Tai people. *They say nothing about Vietnamese people. Nanyue was inhabited by Tai people related to the Zhuang. Is that too hard to comprehend?


You listed 8 books and 2 threads to make the point "Guangdong was inhabited by Tai people"? oh sorry I forgot to read all of them. Give me 1 year, ok?

Anyway good to know, that Cantonese are Tai people.

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## ManUNITEDglory

Wholegrain said:


> Wrong. You just pulled examples of genetic tests done on a few dozen people from Xi'an, Beijing, Liaoning.



You can talk about how C3 is few samples but this isn't just about C3 and O2b

Siberian admixture includes Q which is prevelant in Turkic invaders and some mongolic groups.

Yet again in north Chinese from 2- 10%







Both north and south but higher on the north.




 


Viet said:


> You listed 8 books and 2 threads to make the point "Guangdong was inhabited by Tai people"? oh sorry I forgot to read all of them. Give me 1 year, ok?
> 
> Anyway good to know, that Cantonese are Tai people.



Cantonese are like a mixture of Northern an Tai people ( Yue )

The groups related with Tai are Laos and Thais however though Thais have signficant 10-25% non-Asian admixture


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## Wholegrain

ManUNITEDglory said:


> You can talk about how C3 is few samples but this isn't just about C3 and O2b
> 
> Siberian admixture includes Q which is prevelant in Turkic invaders and some mongolic groups.
> 
> Yet again in north Chinese from 2- 10%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both north and south but higher on the north.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cantonese are like a mixture of Northern an Tai people ( Yue )
> 
> The groups related with Tai are Laos and Thais however though Thais have signficant 10-25% non-Asian admixture



According to the map, Vietnam has been invaded by siberians since Q and N shows up there, have you even checked the specific subclade?


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## ManUNITEDglory

Wholegrain said:


> According to the map, Vietnam has been invaded by siberians since Q and N shows up there, have you even checked the specific subclade?




The N and Q in Vietnam could have came from Chinese migrants from the north who also migrated there but it is also unlikely they have anything to do with them because south Chinese lack Q while north Chinese was invaded and conquered by Turkic groups


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## Wholegrain

ManUNITEDglory said:


> The N and Q in Vietnam could have came from Chinese migrants from the north who also migrated there but it is also unlikely they have anything to do with them because south Chinese lack Q while north Chinese was invaded and conquered by Turkic groups


 
Check the specific subclades, east asia (china, japan, and korea) is different from turkic peoples Q subclase.

Haplogroup Q-M242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Different subclades of N are found in a ton of different peoples, even the bouyei tai minority in southern China, fiji in the pacific and borneo and indonesia.

Haplogroup N-M231 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have no genetic studies which back your claims that these are from invasions. The genetic studies I posted earlier explicitly say that O3a came from northern china to southern china through Han migration.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Poor dumb Viet baboon, I said those 40 million Cantonese with O1, who are outnumbered by over *60 MILLION Cantonese carrying northern Han O3a*, were Tai people like the Zhuang who were ASSIMILATED by the northern Han migrants who outnumbered them by tens of millions.
> 
> Dumb ape
> 
> Perspectives on the Yi of Southwest China - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Daic is another name for Tai
> 
> Handbuch Der Orientalistik - George van Driem - Google Books



$0 million Cantonese were Tai, like Zhuang ?

They are no Zhuang, and Tai with their own blood lineage from father. They are NanYue people and they had also their own Kingdom in the past. 

You are idiot liar.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> $0 million Cantonese were Tai, like Zhuang ?
> 
> They are no Zhuang, and Tai with their own blood lineage from father. They are NanYue people. You are idiot liar.




The Power of Words: Literacy and Revolution in South China, 1949-95 - Glen Peterson - Google Books



> *Populated originally by a branch of non-Sinitic Tai people, whom Chinese rulers called Yue ('beyond the frontier'), Guangdong was incorporated into the Chinese empire in the first century BCE. Successive waves of Han migration from the north, starting in the fifth century BCE, resulted in the gradual absorption of the Yue people or their displacement into the hilly and remote northern and western parts of Guangdong*.



Perspectives on the Yi of Southwest China - Google Books



> spoken languages with varieties of Chinese. *There is evidence that substantial populations of Zhuang-Dong- (Thai-) language speakers were thus assimilated into the Yue (Cantonese) over several millennia*, and in the last millennium ...



Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books



> The early Han settlers came into contact with the indigenous tribes of the region and gradually assimilated many of them. ... That many colloquial words in the Yue dialects (as well as in other groups of Chinese dialects) do not have standard ...In searching for the sources of colloquial words in the Yue dialects, *a number of scholars have identified phonosemantically similar words in Tai languages of the region and have proposed that some of the colloquial words in Yue form an ancient Tai substratum*..



Daic is another name for Tai

Handbuch Der Orientalistik - George van Driem - Google Books



> *Yet beginning with the Qin dynasty in the third century BC, incursive Chinese elites increasingly imposed their language and culture on the indigenous Daic populations of the south*. Now the Cantonese are referred to as the Yue, though 'Yue' was originally the designation of the *Daic peoples already resident in southern China whom the Chinese assimilated during their colonisation of the south. *Precisely the opposite ...



Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books



> *Yuan (1983:179) noted that the same phenomenon exists in Zhuang, a Tai language spoken in Guangxi Province, and he concluded from this that Zhuang and Cantonese have been influencing each other's development* and that some of these colloquial Cantonese words very likely have a Tai origin..



Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages - Christopher Moseley - Google Books



> *Over several millennia, the Chinese majority group has been expanding southwards intoallareas ofwhat is now China, assimilating or displacing other groups. This hasled togreater orlesserdegrees of structural influence of the larger of these languages on regional varieties of Chinese. For example, it is widely recognised that Cantonese shows both lexicaland structural influencefrom a Tai substratum*.



The Languages of China - S. Robert Ramsey - Google Books

Phonology of Cantonese - Oi-kan Yue Hashimoto - Google Books

You are the idiot and moron. The Nanyue people WERE TAI. The Cantonese were northern Han migrants who moved to Guangdong and they outnumbered the native Nanyue Tai people by the millions, so the reminaing Tai people gave up their language and culture. Cantonese language is closest to middle Chinese language. All of the sources indicate this.

Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books



> Cantonese is ancient as well as modern
> 
> *As spoken today, Cantonese features certain phonological characteristics that are quite close to some pronunciations in Middle Chinese. In fact, some classic Chinese literary pieces, especially poetry, sound close to the original when read in Cantonese because Cantonese phonology is similar in many aspects to the pronunciations used in Middle Chinese.
> 
> In contrast, the pronunciation of Mandarin is very different from Middle Chinese; thus, poetry in Middle Chinese can sound quite discordant when read in Mandarin. Using Mandarin phonology in poetry and other rhyme-based writings originally composed in Middle Chinese may sometimes make the lines of the poem sound quite incoherent as Mandarin differs so markedly from Middle Chinese phonology*.



The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books



> *Cantonese is probably the closest living dialect to the Middle Chinese of the Tang dynasty (618-907 CE), and the Cantonese often refer to themselves as 唐人 tong yan, "people of the Tang*."



Non Han people would refer to Han people from the central plains (Zhongyuan) as "people of the Tang". The Cantonese would use this same term to refer to themselves.

Chinese History: A Manual - Endymion Porter Wilkinson - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books

Nanyue people were Tai and not Cantonese.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> The Power of Words: Literacy and Revolution in South China, 1949-95 - Glen Peterson - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Perspectives on the Yi of Southwest China - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Daic is another name for Tai
> 
> Handbuch Der Orientalistik - George van Driem - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Cantonese Phonology - Robert S. Bauer, Paul K. Benedict - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages - Christopher Moseley - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> The Languages of China - S. Robert Ramsey - Google Books
> 
> Phonology of Cantonese - Oi-kan Yue Hashimoto - Google Books
> 
> You are the idiot and moron. The Nanyue people WERE TAI. The Cantonese were northern Han migrants who moved to Guangdong and they outnumbered the native Nanyue Tai people by the millions, so the reminaing Tai people gave up their language and culture. Cantonese language is closest to middle Chinese language. All of the sources indicate this.
> 
> Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books
> 
> Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> Non Han people would refer to Han people from the central plains (Zhongyuan) as "people of the Tang". The Cantonese would use this same term to refer to themselves.
> 
> Chinese History: A Manual - Endymion Porter Wilkinson - Google Books
> 
> China - Michael Cannings - Google Books
> 
> Nanyue people were Tai and not Cantonese.



There is trash.

40 million native Cantonese are true NanYue, belong to Bai Yue.

Han Dynasty conquered Nan Yue, the census has been made, its reported that there was around 400.000 NanYue and 900.000 Viet Kinh people.

Today, Vietnamese population is 90 million (86 % Kinh people). Native NanYue is around 40 million in Canton is reliable number.

Using han Ji is a big disadvantage for Nan Yue people to preserve his own language.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> There is trash.
> 
> 40 million native Cantonese are true NanYue, belong to Bai Yue.
> 
> Han Dynasty conquered Nan Yue, the census has been made, its reported that there was around 400.000 NanYue and 900.000 Viet Kinh people.
> 
> Today, Vietnamese population is 90 million (86 % Kinh people). Native NanYue is around 40 million in Canton is reliable number.
> 
> Using han Ji is a big disadvantage for Nan Yue people to preserve his own language.



Too bad moron, the native Nanyue language is Tai, not Cantonese. Cantonese is a Sinitic (Chinese) language). Millions of Cantonese northern Han migrated south and outnumbered the Tai nanyue.

These are the Tai languages descended from Nanyue.

Hlai language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bouyei language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Standard Zhuang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the Zhuang script.

Sawndip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Cantonese is an Old/Middle Sinic language got influenced by the Tai language.

Just like English got heavily influenced by Celtic and Latin, but its root is still Germanic.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Too bad moron, the native Nanyue language is Tai, not Cantonese. Cantonese is a Sinitic (Chinese) language). Millions of Cantonese northern Han migrated south and outnumbered the Tai nanyue.
> 
> These are the Tai languages descended from Nanyue.
> 
> Hlai language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Bouyei language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Standard Zhuang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This is the Zhuang script.
> 
> Sawndip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



40 million native NanYue people living in canton today, they don't shared bloodline with Hán people. 60 million Cantonese were mixed bloodline with Northerners who immigrated to Canton and so they were assimilated by NanYue people after many generations.

Cantonese language is native Tai/katai language, it should been effected by using Han Ji with borrowed words and so became the one separat language in Sino-Tibetan language family only. In result of this process Han people and Cantonese could not communicate each to other directly.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Cantonese is an Old/Middle Sinic language got influenced by the Tai language.
> 
> Just like English got heavily influenced by Celtic and Latin, but its root is still Germanic.



don't forget that English people and Deutsch Volk can not understand each to others by speaking same as Han and Cantonese, even thought two languages have similar grammar using complex expression systems with the verbs "to have" and "to be", it's corresponding to "haben" and "sein" in Duetsch, and there are in two different ethnic group, other than they are in two Nations and Citizenships.

(I finished meine beruft ausbuildung in German, kid)

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> 40 million native NanYue people living in canton today, they don't shared bloodline with Hán people. 60 million Cantonese were mixed bloodline with Northerners who immigrated to Canton and so they were assimilated by NanYue people after many generations.
> 
> Cantonese language is native Tai/katai language, it should been effected by using Han Ji with borrowed words and so became the one separat language in Sino-Tibetan language family only. In result of this process Han people and Cantonese could not communicate each to other directly.



No dumbass, Korean and Japanese and Vietnamese have used Chinese characters and their languages have not changed lanugage families.

Hanja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kanji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chữ nôm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These are the true Tai languages descended from the Nanyue natives.

Hlai language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bouyei language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Standard Zhuang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Zhuang have even used a script based on Chinese characters called Sawndip, like Chu Nom in Vietnam. It didn't change their language family to Sinitic.

Sawndip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sawndip writing

















The grammar and vocabulary of Cantonese is Sinitic and Cantonese is closest dialect to Middle Chinese.

Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books



> Cantonese is ancient as well as modern
> 
> As spoken today, Cantonese features certain phonological characteristics that are quite close to some pronunciations in Middle Chinese. In fact, some classic Chinese literary pieces, especially poetry, sound close to the original when read in Cantonese because Cantonese phonology is similar in many aspects to the pronunciations used in Middle Chinese.
> 
> In contrast, the pronunciation of Mandarin is very different from Middle Chinese; thus, poetry in Middle Chinese can sound quite discordant when read in Mandarin. Using Mandarin phonology in poetry and other rhyme-based writings originally composed in Middle Chinese may sometimes make the lines of the poem sound quite incoherent as Mandarin differs so markedly from Middle Chinese phonology.



The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books



> Cantonese is probably the closest living dialect to the Middle Chinese of the Tang dynasty (618-907 CE), and the Cantonese often refer to themselves as 唐人 tong yan, "people of the Tang."



The name "people of the Tang" was used by non-Han foreigners to refer to Han people from the central plains (Zhongyuan). This term was never used for non Han.

Chinese History: A Manual - Endymion Porter Wilkinson - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books

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## CorporateAffairs

All I know about Vietnam is, that they made the US and Chinese piss and shit in their pants

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## Wholegrain

CorporateAffairs said:


> All I know about Vietnam is, that they made the US and Chinese piss and shit in their pants



Oh so scary....

Johnson South Reef Skirmish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Battle of the Paracel Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now the traditional border pass between China and Vietnam is inside of China's territory...

Friendship Pass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Using han Ji is a big disadvantage for Nan Yue people to preserve his own language.



Big disadvantage hrr? Hmm, let's see, how about I:

詛咒你隻死馬騮祖宗十八代,
冚家鏟快尐仆街跳樓死, 無喺度浪費我哋人類嘅寶貴資源,
頂你個肺咁多人死唔見你條食屎南蠻狗死

Well, not so 'disadvantage'.


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## elis

CorporateAffairs said:


> All I know about Vietnam is, that they made the US and Chinese piss and shit in their pants


You probably don't know that Russia & China were behind for the most famous cold war

You may not know that France & Iran made better with them beeing attacked by several big nations and winning ALONE at the end


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## Rechoice

elis said:


> You probably don't know that Russia & China were behind for the most famous cold war
> 
> You may not know that France & Iran made better with them beeing attacked by several big nations and winning ALONE at the end




China changed his side from 1968. Only Russian was by with us to end of Vietnam war 1945-1975.

Without victory of Russian on Nazi in WWII, France is part of Third Reich until now.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> No dumbass, Korean and Japanese and Vietnamese have used Chinese characters and their languages have not changed lanugage families.
> 
> Hanja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Kanji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Chữ nôm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> These are the true Tai languages descended from the Nanyue natives.
> 
> Hlai language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Bouyei language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Standard Zhuang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Zhuang languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Zhuang have even used a script based on Chinese characters called Sawndip, like Chu Nom in Vietnam. It didn't change their language family to Sinitic.
> 
> Sawndip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Sawndip writing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The grammar and vocabulary of Cantonese is Sinitic and Cantonese is closest dialect to Middle Chinese.
> 
> Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books
> 
> Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> The name "people of the Tang" was used by non-Han foreigners to refer to Han people from the central plains (Zhongyuan). This term was never used for non Han.
> 
> Chinese History: A Manual - Endymion Porter Wilkinson - Google Books
> 
> China - Michael Cannings - Google Books



Korean and Japanese have their languages Altaic, Viet Kinh language is Mon Khmer, so our languages do not close to Han language, Sino-Tibetan language.

Zhuang people are living in mountainous area in GuangXi, the contacts with Hans is limited, so they could preserved their own language as one separate language belong to one ethnic group of Bai Yue people. It's not in the same case of Cantonese. 

Native Cantonese or NanYue people who were living in region of plain of Zhou Jiang river, were controlled strictly by Han rulers.

native NanYue language is tonal language belong also to Bai Yue Languages, was effected by Madarin when Han Ji writing system applied. Cantonese is a language that originated in the vicinity of _Canton, regarded as the prestige dialect of Yue. _they speak with their own sound and Han Chinese don't understand. There is two different languages when its not to be use to direct communicate of such people concerned Hans and Cantonese. Madarin and Cantonese is not not mutually intelligible because of pronunciation, grammatical, and also lexical differences.

Today, inner Mongolian or Uighur people go to oversea as tourists, they can say they are Zhongguo_ren. It doesn't mean they are Hans, just reported that they come from China. Same was the story in the past, When Hakka or Hokkien people escaped from China to Vietnam, they said: they are "Thoong danh", people of Tang Dynasty. But Cantonese, called by Viet Kinh as "Ngộ" people.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Korean and Japanese have their languages Altaic, Viet Kinh language is Mon Khmer, so our languages do not close to Han language, Sino-Tibetan language.
> 
> Zhuang people are living in mountainous area in GuangXi, the contacts with Hans is limited, so they could preserved their own language as one separate language belong to one ethnic group of Bai Yue people. It's not in the same case of Cantonese.
> 
> Native Cantonese or NanYue people who were living in region of plain of Zhou Jiang river, were controlled strictly by Han rulers.
> 
> native NanYue language is tonal language belong also to Bai Yue Languages, was effected by Madarin when Han Ji writing system applied. Cantonese is a language that originated in the vicinity of _Canton, regarded as the prestige dialect of Yue. _they speak with their own sound and Han Chinese don't understand. There is two different languages when its not to be use to direct communicate of such people concerned Hans and Cantonese. Madarin and Cantonese is not not mutually intelligible because of pronunciation, grammatical, and also lexical differences.
> 
> Today, inner Mongolian or Uighur people go to oversea as tourists, they can say they are Zhongguo_ren. It doesn't mean they are Hans, just reported that they come from China. Same was the story in the past, When Hakka or Hokkien people escaped from China to Vietnam, they said: they are "Thoong danh", people of Tang Dynasty. But Cantonese, called by Viet Kinh as "Ngộ" people.



Poor dumbass, you only quote from the Cantonese article and never the Yue article LOL.

Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Yue or Yueh (English pronunciation: /ˈjuːeɪ/ or /juːˈeɪ/[2]) is a primary branch of Chinese spoken in southern China, particularly the provinces of Guangdong and Guangxi. The name Cantonese is often used, but linguists prefer to reserve that name for the Yue dialect of Guangzhou (Canton) and Hong Kong, which is the prestige dialect. The Cantonese and Taishanese dialects of Yue are spoken by substantial overseas populations in Southeast Asia, Canada, Australia, and the United States.
> 
> History[edit]
> 
> The area of China south of the Nanling Mountains, known as the Lingnan (roughly modern Guangxi and Guangdong), was originally home to peoples known to the Chinese as the Hundred Yue. Large-scale Chinese migration to the area began after the Qin conquest of the region in 214 BC.[7] Successive waves followed at times of upheaval in North China, such as the falls of the Han, Tang and Song dynasties.[7] The most popular route was via the Xiang River, which the Qin had connected to the Li River by the Lingqu Canal, and thence into the valley of the Xi Jiang (West River).[8] A secondary route followed the Gan River and then the Bei Jiang (North River) into eastern Guangdong.[9] Yue speakers were later joined by Hakka speakers following the North River route, and Min speakers arriving by sea.[10]
> After the fall of Qin, the Lingnan area was part of the independent state of Nanyue for about a century, before being incorporated in the Han empire.[9] Following the collapse of the Tang dynasty, much of the Yue area became part of the Southern Han, one of the longest-lived states of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, between 917 and 971.[9]
> The waves of Chinese migration also assimilated huge numbers of aborigines, with the result that today's Yue-speaking population is descended from both groups.[11] The colloquial layers of Yue dialects have a number of elements influenced by the Tai languages formerly spoken widely in the area and still spoken by people such as the Zhuang.[12]



You are going to keep getting busted.


Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books



> *Cantonese is ancient as well as modern
> 
> As spoken today, Cantonese features certain phonological characteristics that are quite close to some pronunciations in Middle Chinese. In fact, some classic Chinese literary pieces, especially poetry, sound close to the original when read in Cantonese because Cantonese phonology is similar in many aspects to the pronunciations used in Middle Chinese.
> 
> In contrast, the pronunciation of Mandarin is very different from Middle Chinese; thus, poetry in Middle Chinese can sound quite discordant when read in Mandarin. Using Mandarin phonology in poetry and other rhyme-based writings originally composed in Middle Chinese may sometimes make the lines of the poem sound quite incoherent as Mandarin differs so markedly from Middle Chinese phonology.*



The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books



> *Cantonese is probably the closest living dialect to the Middle Chinese of the Tang dynasty (618-907 CE), and the Cantonese often refer to themselves as 唐人 tong yan, "people of the Tang."*



The Hokkien Cantonese and Hakka called themselves people of Tang long after the Tang dynasty fell, they continued using it up to now. It has nothing to do with the country they came from, but their ethnicity, since they were descended from Han migrants from the central plains during the Tang dynaty.

By the way you are lying big time, Vietnamese called all Chinese people "Ngô" 吳 since the Ming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bình_Ngô_đại_cáo

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Poor dumbass, you only quote from the Cantonese article and never the Yue article LOL.
> 
> Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> You are going to keep getting busted.
> 
> 
> Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books
> 
> Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> The Hokkien Cantonese and Hakka called themselves people of Tang long after the Tang dynasty fell, they continued using it up to now. It has nothing to do with the country they came from, but their ethnicity, since they were descended from Han migrants from the central plains during the Tang dynaty.
> 
> By the way you are lying big time, Vietnamese called all Chinese people "Ngô" 吳 since the Ming.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bình_Ngô_đại_cáo



Cantonese is NanYue people, one Yue ethnic group belong to Bai Yue (Hundred Type of Yue).

You quoted all such trash what is propaganda to brainwash Chinese people with idiot illusions that they are in one ethnic group for unification the nation. But it is big lie.

Cantonese were called "Ngo" in the past because Cantonese said " I'm ..." or 我 with sound '"Ngo".

You lie that


> "all Chinese people "Ngô" 吳 since the Ming"



From Time òf Ming Dynasty, Chinese immigrated to Vietnam, they were called ás "Minh people" ỏr "Minh Huong".

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## elis

Rechoice said:


> China changed his side from 1968. Only Russian was by with us to end of Vietnam war 1945-1975.
> 
> Without victory of Russian on Nazi in WWII, France is part of Third Reich until now.


Without China you would still be a french colony

I said that France & Iran are better because they made their weapons during the invasion of the coalition after the french revolution and push them back.

France managed to win even they were invaded during the civilian war in Vendée

English, prussians, russians, austrians, italians, swedish and much more were against France 

Iran defeated the zionist USA terrorist arming Iraq, along with Kuwait, Saudi Arabia.


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## EastSea

elis said:


> Without China you would still be a french colony
> 
> I said that France & Iran are better because they made their weapons during the invasion of the coalition after the french revolution and push them back.
> 
> France managed to win even they were invaded during the civilian war in Vendée
> 
> English, prussians, russians, austrians, italians, swedish and much more were against France
> 
> Iran defeated the zionist USA terrorist arming Iraq, along with Kuwait, Saudi Arabia.



France is stupid, didn't given back independence to Vietnam after WW II, when Ho Chi minh had been dismissed Communists party, and France colonial lost the war in Vietnam and Algeria.

With out China Vietnam was not divided in two state in Geneva 1954. In cold war china tried to get his benefit in back of Vietnam.

You parents should been "lính khố đỏ" or "lính khố xanh" in France colonial army.

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## elis

EastSea said:


> With out China Vietnam was not divided in two state in Geneva 1954. In cold war china tried to get his benefit in back of Vietnam.


I thought it was the UN?

Don't be ungrateful, if you didn't want their weapons they wouldn't be able to give you that.


EastSea said:


> You parents should been "lính khố đỏ" or "lính khố xanh" in France colonial army.


My father was a young recruit for the SV Rangers, he later fought during the war against Combodia as a saper (*thanh nien xung phong*)

The war for independance against the french is good, too bad that the communists maintain the difference between South and North after the reunification

I can't support the communist regime because they reject the South vietnamese even they fight for them


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> Cantonese is NanYue people, one Yue ethnic group belong to Bai Yue (Hundred Type of Yue).
> 
> You quoted all such trash what is propaganda to brainwash Chinese people with idiot illusions that they are in one ethnic group for unification the nation. But it is big lie.
> 
> Cantonese were called "Ngo" in the past because Cantonese said " I'm ..." or 我 with sound '"Ngo".
> 
> You lie that
> 
> From Time òf Ming Dynasty, Chinese immigrated to Vietnam, they were called ás "Minh people" ỏr "Minh Huong".



Sure, every historians, scholars, experts are all speaking trash and they are brainwashing people for absolutely no reason at well, while every single word came from our great and holy big ugly mouth Eatsh!t must be truth. All hail Eatsh!t the history inventor.



> 平*吳*大誥 Bình Ngô đại cáo





KirovAirship said:


> Cantonese "ngo5" (*我* / I, me) is even closer than old Chinese "ngɑ̌" than Mandarin "Wǒ".



Let's see this another similar great words from Eatsh!t:


> The word "Kinh" came from our first Emperor "Kinh Duong Vuong".



Yet the fact is:
[If "Kinh" was really refer to Kinh Duong Vuong, then Kinh ethnicity should be 涇族, not 京族, besides the decision of using the name 京族 was decided before Vietnamese language was latinized. Also there is nothing wrong with the beautiful Hanji 涇~

The Kinh of Kinh people is for "Capital 京", it is to 'distinguish themselves (Kinh) from other ethnic groups (barbarians outside the 京畿 [capital] such as people in Thanh Hoa and Nghe An) in Vietnam'. It's nothing related to that Kinh 涇 Duong Vuong.]

But no matter how stupid his retarded words are, he is still on the right side since he has the biggest mouth in the world. All hail the greatest EatSh!t.

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## EastSea

elis said:


> I thought it was the UN?
> 
> Don't be ungrateful, if you didn't want their weapons they wouldn't be able to give you that.
> 
> My father was a young recruit for the SV Rangers, he later fought during the war against Combodia as a saper (*thanh nien xung phong*)
> 
> The war for independance against the french is good, too bad that the communists maintain the difference between South and North after the reunification
> 
> I can't support the communist regime because they reject the South vietnamese even they fight for them



The first Vietnam war, china given away such weapon made in Soviet Union were provided to them in civil war and Korean war.

The second Vietnam war against USA, mostly Tanks, Missiles, artillery ... were made in Soviet Union. After 1972, china made rifles, ammunition were not been used.

Your parents is traitor, like Nguyen Van Thieu, Nguyen Cao Ky ... they joined first to Viet Minh, then ran out from VPA to Army of France Colonial.

In case of No Dinh Diem accepted proposal of Ho Chi Minh for general election in 1956 following terms of Geneva Accord 1954, there was not Second Vietnam war.

What is the difference between North and South after 1975 ? when USA applied economy embargo against Vietnam and China backed Khmer Rouge began follow provocative attacks on border with support of China, Hua people in Saigon demonstrated claimed back their Tzong Hua ren as Taiwan-citizenship. There was dirty policy of China-USA allies counter Vietnam.

Today, oversea Vietnamese turn back home then they can do business as well, included my relateves. 

I think you are Hua, not true Vietnamese.

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Cantonese is NanYue people, one Yue ethnic group belong to Bai Yue (Hundred Type of Yue).
> 
> You quoted all such trash what is propaganda to brainwash Chinese people with idiot illusions that they are in one ethnic group for unification the nation. But it is big lie.
> 
> Cantonese were called "Ngo" in the past because Cantonese said " I'm ..." or 我 with sound '"Ngo".
> 
> You lie that
> 
> From Time òf Ming Dynasty, Chinese immigrated to Vietnam, they were called ás "Minh people" ỏr "Minh Huong".



Then White Americans are native Americans, one ethnic group belonging to the many Native american tribes.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Then White Americans are native Americans, one ethnic group belonging to the many Native american tribes.



Americans who joined for fighting and created United States in 17th century, they are native American, but they should been in different ethnic groupes based on Bloodlines and Languages. 

New comer to America; like Arabish, Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese ..., this people with new bloodline and language or in different ethnic groups do not considered as native American.

NanYue people joined for creation NanYue Guo in time BC, and fighting against invasion of Han Empere, they are native NanYue people, if they shared common bloodline and language, NanYue people is independence ethnic group.

New comers to NanYue Guo; like Hokkien, Hakka, Hans etc with new bloodlines and languages, they are not considered as native NanYue Guo people or with another wording: Hans, Hakka, Hokkien, etc are not considered as native ethnic group.


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## INDIC

Wholegrain said:


> Then *White Americans are native Americans*, one ethnic group belonging to the many Native american tribes.



That sounds bizarre.



EastSea said:


> Americans who joined for fighting and created United States in 17th century, they are native American, but they should been in different ethnic groupes based on Bloodlines and Languages.
> 
> New comer to America; like Arabish, Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese ..., this people with new bloodline and language or in different ethnic groups do not considered as native American.
> 
> NanYue people joined for creation NanYue Guo in time BC, and fighting against invasion of Han Empere, they are native NanYue people, if they shared common bloodline and language, NanYue people is independence ethnic group.
> 
> New comers to NanYue Guo; like Hokkien, Hakka, Hans etc with new bloodlines and languages, they are not considered as native NanYue Guo people or with another wording: Hans, Hakka, Hokkien, etc are not considered as native ethnic group.



He has many times told me contradictory statement at number of times. While this guy Fattyacids always lie about Chinese history.

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## elis

EastSea said:


> The first Vietnam war, china given away such weapon made in Soviet Union were provided to them in civil war and Korean war.
> 
> The second Vietnam war against USA, mostly Tanks, Missiles, artillery ... were made in Soviet Union. After 1972, china made rifles, ammunition were not been used.
> 
> Your parents is traitor, like Nguyen Van Thieu, Nguyen Cao Ky ... they joined first to Viet Minh, then ran out from VPA to Army of France Colonial.
> 
> In case of No Dinh Diem accepted proposal of Ho Chi Minh for general election in 1956 following terms of Geneva Accord 1954, there was not Second Vietnam war.
> 
> What is the difference between North and South after 1975 ? when USA applied economy embargo against Vietnam and China backed Khmer Rouge began follow provocative attacks on border with support of China, Hua people in Saigon demonstrated lback their Tzong Hua ren as Taiwan-citizenship. There was dirty policy of China-USA allies counter Vietnam.
> 
> Today, oversea Vietnamese turn back home then they can do business as well, included my relateves.
> 
> I think you are Hua, not true Vietnamese.


He fought with the NV army in 1979 but the discriminations against the south vietnamese never stopped even now

The vietnamese who go back home to make business are stolen and forbidden to do so



> In 1950, China extended diplomatic recognition to the Viet Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam and sent weapons, as well as military advisors led by Luo Guibo to assist the Viet Minh in its war with the French. The first draft of the 1954 Geneva Accords was negotiated by French prime minister Pierre Mendès France and Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai who, fearing U.S. intervention, urged the Viet Minh to accept a partition at the 17th parallel.[249]
> 
> In the summer of 1962, Mao Zedong agreed to supply Hanoi with 90,000 rifles and guns free of charge. Starting in 1965, China sent anti-aircraft units and engineering battalions to North Vietnam to repair the damage caused by American bombing, rebuild roads and railroads, and to perform other engineering works. This freed North Vietnamese army units for combat in the South. China sent 320,000 troops and annual arms shipments worth $180 million.[250]
> 
> Sino-Soviet relations soured after the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia in August 1968. In October, the Chinese demanded North Vietnam cut relations with Moscow, but Hanoi refused.[251] The Chinese began to withdraw in November 1968 in preparation for a clash with the Soviets, which occurred at Zhenbao Island in March 1969. The Chinese also began financing the Khmer Rouge as a counterweight to the Vietnamese communists at this time.
> 
> China "armed and trained" the Khmer Rouge during the civil war and continued to aid them for years afterward.[252] The Khmer Rouge launched ferocious raids into Vietnam in 1975–1978. When Vietnam responded with an invasion that toppled the Khmer Rouge, China launched a brief, punitive invasion of Vietnam in 1979.
> 
> Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## EastSea

INDIC said:


> That sounds bizarre.
> 
> 
> 
> He has many times told me contradictory statement at number of times. While this guy Fattyacids always lie about Chinese history.



They claim that they are in the same ethnic group, homogeneous ethnic group. Big joke.




elis said:


> He fought with the NV army in 1979 but the discriminations against the south vietnamese never stopped even now
> 
> The vietnamese who go back home to make business are stolen and forbidden to do so



He lie to you. He can go to oversea if he like it.

Le Duan, Pham Van Dong, Ton Duc Thang, Vo Van Kiet, Pham Hung, ... are SV communists and they were in top leaders of Govt and Party.

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## INDIC

EastSea said:


> They claim that they are in the same ethnic group, homogeneous ethnic group. Big joke.



I too thought the same thing once until I started to get deeper into Chinese, had Chinese not insulted Indians, I wouldn't have known their true history. 

Also, the history and personalities of Qin Shi Huang who founded the Qin Empire is very interesting.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Yet the fact is:
> [If "Kinh" was really refer to Kinh Duong Vuong, then Kinh ethnicity should be 涇族, not 京族, besides the decision of using the name 京族 was decided before Vietnamese language was latinized. Also there is nothing wrong with the beautiful Hanji 涇~
> 
> The Kinh of *Kinh people is for "Capital 京"*, it is to 'distinguish themselves (Kinh) from other ethnic groups (barbarians outside the 京畿 [capital] such as people in Thanh Hoa and Nghe An) in Vietnam'. It's nothing related to that Kinh 涇 Duong Vuong.]


Also Chinese refer to Viet people in China as the Jīng (京族). 京 itself stands for Peking?
Gin people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



elis said:


> I thought it was the UN?
> 
> Don't be ungrateful, if you didn't want their weapons they wouldn't be able to give you that.
> 
> My father was a young recruit for the SV Rangers, he later fought during the war against Combodia as a saper (*thanh nien xung phong*)
> 
> The war for independance against the french is good, too bad that the communists maintain the difference between South and North after the reunification
> 
> I can't support the communist regime because they reject the South vietnamese even they fight for them


salut elis, tu parles anglais, vietnamien et français?


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> Also Chinese refer to Viet people in China as the Jīng (京族). 京 itself stands for Peking?
> Gin people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




I have read some articles, which mention the 京 of Vietnamese Chinese refers to both Vietnamese people (Kinh 京) and the capital of their mother land (Beijing 北京).


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> I have read some articles, which mention the *京* of Vietnamese Chinese refers to both Vietnamese people (Kinh 京) and the capital of their mother land (Beijing 北*京*).


weird coincidence...


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Americans who joined for fighting and created United States in 17th century, they are native American, but they should been in different ethnic groupes based on Bloodlines and Languages.
> 
> New comer to America; like Arabish, Indian, Chinese or Vietnamese ..., this people with new bloodline and language or in different ethnic groups do not considered as native American.
> 
> NanYue people joined for creation NanYue Guo in time BC, and fighting against invasion of Han Empere, they are native NanYue people, if they shared common bloodline and language, NanYue people is independence ethnic group.
> 
> New comers to NanYue Guo; like Hokkien, Hakka, Hans etc with new bloodlines and languages, they are not considered as native NanYue Guo people or with another wording: Hans, Hakka, Hokkien, etc are not considered as native ethnic group.



Poor dumb Viet baboon, Cantonese ARE the Han newcomers, the native nanyue people were Tai speaking people like the Zhuang. The majority of Cantonese have Y chromosome haplogroup Oa3 from northern China, Cantonese dialect is even closer to Middle Chinese than Mandarin and it is Sinitic (Chinese)

Cantonese culture is Han culture, the native Nanyue people practiced tattooing and teeth blackening and while this is forbidden in Han culture. Cantonese do not tattoo like the native nanyue peoples.

During the early Qing, a Cantonese named Qu Dajun wrote an "The Real Yue People", an essay which explained that Cantonese are descended from northern Han migrants moved south as colonists to Guangdong by the Qin and other dynasties, and he wrote that the descendants of the Yue (Baiyue) were the small remnants of ethnic minorities who practiced tattooing.

Public Spheres and Collective Identities - Google Books

Public Spheres and Collective Identities - Google Books



EastSea said:


> They claim that they are in the same ethnic group, homogeneous ethnic group. Big joke.





INDIC said:


> I too thought the same thing once until I started to get deeper into Chinese, had Chinese not insulted Indians, I wouldn't have known their true history.
> 
> Also, the history and personalities of Qin Shi Huang who founded the Qin Empire is very interesting.



Northern and southern Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Everyone outside of northern Vietnam is fake Kinh.

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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> weird coincidence...


It's not coincidence, but giving a new meaning to a term. 
Vietnamese Chinese was called Viet before around 1955.


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## INDIC

Wholegrain said:


> Northern and southern Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Everyone outside of northern Vietnam is fake Kinh.



The difference may exist but the European powers and not the Vietnamese divided Vietnam into Northern and Southern Vietnam trying to reduce its status like Koreas.


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## Wholegrain

INDIC said:


> The difference may exist but the European powers and not the Vietnamese divided Vietnam into Northern and Southern Vietnam trying to reduce its status like Koreas.



No, they divided it themselves first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyễn_lords

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mạc_dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trịnh_lords

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## INDIC

Wholegrain said:


> No, they divided it themselves first.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyễn_lords
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mạc_dynasty
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trịnh_lords



I don't know about the past but they fought for keeping their country Vietnam united preventing ending up like North and South Korea.

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## elis

Viet said:


> salut elis, tu parles anglais, vietnamien et français?


Tu parles français?



EastSea said:


> They claim that they are in the same ethnic group, homogeneous ethnic group. Big joke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He lie to you. He can go to oversea if he like it.
> 
> Le Duan, Pham Van Dong, Ton Duc Thang, Vo Van Kiet, Pham Hung, ... are SV communists and they were in top leaders of Govt and Party.


My mother tells me also that the Vietminh/vietcong looted sv and make disappear people

She tells me that the viet kieu going in Vietnam to make business, but the officials say it lacks a paper and take all their investissment money

And what i'am sure about is that the vietnamese people coming in France for the studies are all nv


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## Viet

elis said:


> Tu parles français?


un peu 


elis said:


> My mother tells me also that the Vietminh/vietcong looted sv and make disappear people


ta mère es vietnamienne?
(my french isn´t good at all, I stop here).


elis said:


> She tells me that the viet kieu going in Vietnam to make business, but the officials say it lacks a paper and take all their investissment money
> 
> And what i'am sure about is that the vietnamese people coming in France for the studies are all nv


I suggest you make a trip to Vietnam and speak to the people there. I´m Viet kieu, too, and I can tell you that Vietnam has improved a lot in terms of infrastructures and everything. Corruption still exists but it is no longer endemic if compared to a decade ago.

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## Viet

Wholegrain said:


> No, they divided it themselves first.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyễn_lords
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mạc_dynasty
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trịnh_lords


not exactly correct. First, The conflict escalated when two contesting Viet family clans (the Nguyen and the Trinh) claimed to be the real ascessor of the Le dynasty. Second, during the civil war, the Nguyen continued the southern march conquering Champa kingdom and Khmer Empire.


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## Rechoice

Wholegrain said:


> Poor dumb Viet baboon, Cantonese ARE the Han newcomers, the native nanyue people were Tai speaking people like the Zhuang. The majority of Cantonese have Y chromosome haplogroup Oa3 from northern China, Cantonese dialect is even closer to Middle Chinese than Mandarin and it is Sinitic (Chinese)
> 
> Cantonese culture is Han culture, the native Nanyue people practiced tattooing and teeth blackening and while this is forbidden in Han culture. Cantonese do not tattoo like the native nanyue peoples.
> 
> During the early Qing, a Cantonese named Qu Dajun wrote an "The Real Yue People", an essay which explained that Cantonese are descended from northern Han migrants moved south as colonists to Guangdong by the Qin and other dynasties, and he wrote that the descendants of the Yue (Baiyue) were the small remnants of ethnic minorities who practiced tattooing.
> 
> Public Spheres and Collective Identities - Google Books
> 
> Public Spheres and Collective Identities - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northern and southern Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Everyone outside of northern Vietnam is fake Kinh.



You have to learn more before you can troll idiot thing. Here is famous poem of South Vietnamese poet Huỳnh Văn Nghệ:

A_i về xứ Bắc ta đi với
Thăm lại non sông giống Lạc Hồng
Từ độ mang gươm đi mở cõi
Trời Nam thương nhớ đất Thăng Long.

Ai đi về Bắc xin thăm hỏi
Hồn cũ anh hùng đất Cổ Loa
Hoàn Kiếm hồ xưa Linh Quy hỡi
Bao giờ mang trả kiếm dân ta.

Huỳnh Văn Nghệ – Wikipedia tiếng Việt
_
I translated to English:

Who turn to North, let me go therewith,
Visit the mountains, rivers, native land of Lac Hong people.
From time with sword go to protect our homeland.
The South sky reminder me to the Thang Long old capital.

Who would go to visit North let me should ask
How about old souls of our heroes were fallen at land Co Loa citadel ?
Hoan Kiem Lake and The old Spirit of legendary Gold Turle
When bring back the divine sword to our people ?

(sorry for my poor English)



Viet said:


> no exactly correct. First, The conflict escalated when two contesting Viet family clans (the Nguyen and the Trinh) claimed to be the real ascessor of the Le dynasty. Second, during the civil war, the Nguyen continued the southern march conquering Champa kingdom and Khmer Empire.



Trịnh Warlord was son-in-law of Nguyễn Warlord. They are descendants of one family.

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## yue10

Viet said:


> no exactly correct. First, The conflict escalated when two contesting Viet family clans (the Nguyen and the Trinh) claimed to be the real ascessor of the Le dynasty. Second, during the civil war, the Nguyen continued the southern march conquering Champa kingdom and Khmer Empire.


stop your lies about nam tien my Annam friend


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## elis

Viet said:


> un peu
> 
> ta mère es vietnamienne?


Oui elle l'est

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Poor dumb Viet baboon, Cantonese ARE the Han newcomers, the native nanyue people were Tai speaking people like the Zhuang. The majority of Cantonese have Y chromosome haplogroup Oa3 from northern China, Cantonese dialect is even closer to Middle Chinese than Mandarin and it is Sinitic (Chinese)
> 
> Cantonese culture is Han culture, the native Nanyue people practiced tattooing and teeth blackening and while this is forbidden in Han culture. Cantonese do not tattoo like the native nanyue peoples.
> 
> During the early Qing, a Cantonese named Qu Dajun wrote an "The Real Yue People", an essay which explained that Cantonese are descended from northern Han migrants moved south as colonists to Guangdong by the Qin and other dynasties, and he wrote that the descendants of the Yue (Baiyue) were the small remnants of ethnic minorities who practiced tattooing.
> 
> Public Spheres and Collective Identities - Google Books
> 
> Public Spheres and Collective Identities - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northern and southern Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Everyone outside of northern Vietnam is fake Kinh.




You troll and troll. You are Cantonese, no Hans.

It is a shameful when Northerner Han Chinese look down at you, Cantonese.

*Northerner Chinese claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese*

Northerner claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese - AsianFanatics Forum

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> You troll and troll. You are Cantonese, no Hans.
> 
> It is a shameful when Northerner Han Chinese look down at you, Cantonese.
> 
> *Northerner Chinese claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese*
> 
> Northerner claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese - AsianFanatics Forum



You are so bloody pathetic that you even take posts written by someone who *DOESN'T HAVE A FREAKING TRUE IDENTITY* from a *FREAKING FORUM *as a goddamn reference

Oh my baby Jesus, seriously, just open the window and jump. 

Here, take this as another reference before you become tomato sause youbloody loser:

{ EatSh!t is a bloody loser, he is so ugly and stupid. His family is so freaking _pure _that he has a mother who is also his grandmother}

History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam? | Page 40

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> You troll and troll. You are Cantonese, no Hans.
> 
> It is a shameful when Northerner Han Chinese look down at you, Cantonese.
> 
> *Northerner Chinese claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese*
> 
> Northerner claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese - AsianFanatics Forum



Congragulations dumbass. You found a post on an english language online FORUM, by someone providing no sources and claiming to be southern Chinese. Cool story, I can create an account on that forum, pretend to be Vietnamese, and post threads about how Vietnamese are all descendants of Chimpanzees mating with baboons.


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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Congragulations dumbass. You found a post on an english language online FORUM, by someone providing no sources and claiming to be southern Chinese. Cool story, I can create an account on that forum, pretend to be Vietnamese, and post threads about how Vietnamese are all descendants of Chimpanzees mating with baboons.



Why you are crying to much when some one say you are no Han ?

Its very funny, You are not considered as Han by Nortnern Han chinese.

Your bloodline in human chromosomes ís differed from Bloodline human in chromosomes of Han people in North China, same as it's differed from Bloodline òf Kinh Viet.

We (Mon-Khmer) Kinh don't have nothing to do with (Tai-Katay) native Cantonese and (Tai/Katay) native Cantonese don't have nothing to do with (Sino-Tibetan) Han people.


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## Viet

elis said:


> Oui elle l'est


Ça alors, tu es vietnamien. J'aime la France


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## elis

Viet said:


> Ça alors, tu es vietnamien. J'aime la France


L'Allemagne est pas mal aussi, mais je connais pas bien


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Why you are crying to much when some one say you are no Han ?
> 
> Its very funny, You are not considered as Han by Nortnern Han chinese.
> 
> Your bloodline in human chromosomes ís differed from Bloodline human in chromosomes of Han people in North China, same as it's differed from Bloodline òf Kinh Viet.
> 
> We (Mon-Khmer) Kinh don't have nothing to do with (Tai-Katay) native Cantonese and (Tai/Katay) native Cantonese don't have nothing to do with (Sino-Tibetan) Han people.



Congragulations again for showing us that most *northern and southern Han share the same Y chromosome Oa3 haplogroup.* Cantonese are Han people are their dialect is part of the Sinitic family of Sino-Tibetan, and not part of Tai-Kadai. The ZHUANG are Tai Kadai

Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Language family
> Sino-Tibetan
> Sinitic
> Chinese
> Yue*



Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Language family
> Sino-Tibetan
> Chinese
> Yue
> Yuehai
> Cantonese*













Zhuang languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Language family
> Tai–Kadai
> Tai
> Zhuang*



Tai-Kadai






Cantonese






And here it is again, you baboon, most northern and southern Han share the same O3 Y chromosome haplogroup.

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> Congragulations again for showing us that most *northern and southern Han share the same Y chromosome Oa3 haplogroup.* Cantonese are Han people are their dialect is part of the Sinitic family of Sino-Tibetan, and not part of Tai-Kadai. The ZHUANG are Tai Kadai
> 
> Yue Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zhuang languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Tai-Kadai
> 
> 
> 
> Cantonese
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is again, you baboon, most northern and southern Han share the same O3 Y chromosome haplogroup.



Congratulation to 40 million True Native Cantonese. There is great when you can preserved your original Nan Yue paternal blood lineage and your Tai/Katay language with 8
tonal.

Cantonese native people don't let such fake Hans cheating you, immigrated in time of collapsing of Tang Dynasty. Hakka are not Han, they are Xiongnu (Xi Rong). Hokkien are mixed with nomads (Bei Di), they preserved many Altaic words, which they shared with Korean and Japanese in ancient time.

Native pure Nan YUE people speak Yue langguange.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> It's not coincidence, but giving a new meaning to a term.
> Vietnamese Chinese was called Viet before around *1955*.


what happened in 1955?


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> what happened in 1955?


People got high or something.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> People got high or something.


hm...do you mean something like this? (that is found when google "China 1955").


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> hm...do you mean something like this? (that is found when google "China 1955").



Actually they changed the name in 1958, and I don't really sure why. 
The picture is unrelated.


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## Viet

EastSea said:


> Why you are crying to much when some one say you are no Han ?
> 
> Its very funny, You are not considered as Han by Nortnern Han chinese.
> 
> Your bloodline in human chromosomes ís differed from Bloodline human in chromosomes of Han people in North China, same as it's differed from Bloodline òf Kinh Viet.
> 
> We (Mon-Khmer) Kinh don't have nothing to do with (Tai-Katay) native Cantonese and (Tai/Katay) native Cantonese don't have nothing to do with (Sino-Tibetan) Han people.


when will all of you stop discussing such nonsense? that includes you Wholegrain.



KirovAirship said:


> Actually they changed the name in 1958, and I don't really sure why.
> The picture is unrelated.


1955 belongs to a peaceful period, isn´t it? It was between the end of the Korea war 1953 and the start of the Great leap forward 1958.


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## EastSea

Viet said:


> when will all of you stop discussing such nonsense? that includes you Wholegrain.
> 
> 
> 1955 belongs to a peaceful period, isn´t it? It was between the end of the Korea war 1953 and the start of the Great leap forward 1958.



He provocatived first. Don't let him copy, past and troll such nonsense without responses. Read all my posts related to my argument, bro.


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## Viet

EastSea, ok...but don´t fall into the traps of trollers. I found some new images of Saigon.


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## Viet



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## KAL-EL

@Viet Nice pics!

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## Viet

KAL-EL said:


> @Viet Nice pics!


small but beautiful, isn´t it? But I´m a bit disappointed of our slow pace of economic development.


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## Snomannen

@Viet

Let me tell you who is the really troll -it is that freaking Nanman monkey who created the hilarious retarded "true Han" theory, keep telling/ repeating the same nonsenses and incite Chinese people living in different regions to claim freaking independence. 

China calls on Japan to respect historical facts

Last year this monkey even claim that Manchurian wants to be independent based on a freaking stupid so-called "Manchugor government" website which asks for stupid people to donate and buy their stupid "currency" and "passport".

Please don't defend this bloody bastard just because he speaks the same language as you do.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> @Viet
> 
> Let me tell you who is the really troll -it is that freaking Nanman monkey who created the hilarious retarded "true Han" theory, keep telling/ repeating the same nonsenses and incite Chinese people living in different regions to claim freaking independence.
> 
> China calls on Japan to respect historical facts
> 
> Last year this *monkey *even claim that Manchurian wants to be independent based on a freaking stupid so-called "Manchugor government" website which asks for stupid people to donate and buy their stupid "currency" and "passport".
> 
> Please don't defend this bloody bastard just because he speaks the same language as you do.


I have pointed out several times that you are right, @EastSea is not right. Though I did not address him directly. Now I do: *There is NO NO NO such "true" or "untrue" Han. *That does not exist! Unfortunately such nonsense exists in Vietnam, I don´t know why.

The same goes to theory of "blood line": my reply post #806. I want to appeal to all, that we stop discussing such disgusted matter. As for "monkey", you may avoid this next time.

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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> I have pointed out several times that you are right, @EastSea is not right. Though I did not address him directly. Now I do: *There is NO NO NO such "true" or "untrue" Han. *That does not exist! Unfortunately such nonsense exists in Vietnam, I don´t know why.
> 
> The same goes to theory of "blood line": my reply post #806. I want to appeal to all, that we stop discussing such disgusted matter. As for "monkey", you may avoid this next time.


Then you shouldn't have call that guy a troll since she is defending our people from that creature's nonsense. 

I know, that's why I respect you and thank you for your open mind and understanding, but show no 'mercy' to that two-faces, shameless, uneducated idiot.

The term "monkey" I used is to _describe _a single object, not a whole group.


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## EastSea

Viet said:


> I have pointed out several times that you are right, @EastSea is not right. Though I did not address him directly. Now I do: *There is NO NO NO such "true" or "untrue" Han. *That does not exist! Unfortunately such nonsense exists in Vietnam, I don´t know why.
> 
> The same goes to theory of "blood line": my reply post #806. I want to appeal to all, that we stop discussing such disgusted matter. As for "monkey", you may avoid this next time.



You are not right bro.

Most of aggressive Chinese members here on forum are not true Han Chinese, they are Manchus, Hakka, Hokkien etc. or should come from area there was Nan Yue, Wu Yue, Min Yue land in the past.

I wandered when I dropped first in to PDF that: why they are very aggressive ? When this guys their ancestors in the past were conquered by Han Chinese ?

My answer is very simple, such boys try to show of themselves as best as possible that they are more Han than Han Chinese who living now in Middle land of China, to compensate or hidden their inferior mentality. 

In fact I ignore the guy who open his mouth with full of bullshixt.

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> You are not right bro.
> 
> Most of aggressive Chinese members here on forum are not true Han Chinese, they are Manchus, Hakka, Hokkien etc. or should come from area there was Nan Yue, Wu Yue, Min Yue land in the past.
> 
> I wandered when I dropped first in to PDF that: why they are very aggressive ? When this guys their ancestors in the past were conquered by Han Chinese ?
> 
> My answer is very simple, such boys try to show of themselves as best as possible that they are more Han than Han Chinese who living now in Middle land of China, to compensate or hidden their inferior mentality.
> 
> In fact I ignore the guy who open his mouth with full of bullshixt.



He is right and you are wrong, retard, totally wrong. Even your useless life is a terrible mistake.

Oh my~ now you are calling Manchurian, Hakka and the so-called "not ture Han" (Another "true Han" nonsense, you idiot just really enjoy showing people how stupid and helpless you are~) are aggressive~ I remember not really long time ago you bastard were pretending yourself as a "friend" to Manchurian and those "slaves of Han people", and now you are showing your ugly true face because your stupid plan of inciting Chinese people never works and these "slaves of Han" never buy your hilarious bullshxi. What a bloody two-faces loser. 

Ancient Chinese people didn't even share the same concept of "ethnicity" as Western did~ They never distinguished people's identity based on bloodline, but culture and the sense of identity. Yet you idiot keep saying the freaking stupid theory made from your useless brain to make people sick. 

Even in Macau we care less about other people's ethnicity, unlike you, retard, you are a goddamn racist. You talk as a racist, you think as a racist. That's why your so-called "simple answer" doesn't make any sense and so freaking stupid~



> EastSea said: ↑
> base on your stupid logic, some Yue women were f**ked by foreign Han invaders, then all next generation of Yue peoples become Hans (?)
> 
> The Macau peoples was ruled by Portugal rulers, some Macau women were F**ked by them, in result of that you are dirty mulate Portugal and Cantonese can say to you " tiu na ma mixed kid".





> KirovAirship said: ↑
> What freaking logic~? I always prefer the 'generalized concept' of describing what Han ethnicity is, which means that everyone who adopts Han culture and considered/ admit themselves as a part of the Han community, they are Han no matter what so-called bloodline they share~ Just like who ever adopt Canadian culture, they are no doubt Canadians. I would never give a damn to bloodline since I'm not a racist bastard like you.
> 
> What's wrong with having several ancestries. This is totally normal in the reality which you never belong to. 宋玉生博士, 高 天賜, 歐安利... these native-born Portuguese people are all talents who has contributed a lot to Macau. Macau people (including every ethnics) respect them especially to 何鴻燊, "the King of Gambling in Macau", who has Chinese, Dutch and Jewish lineages. He even declared that he and his family only follow their matriarchal and claimed that their ancestral hometown was Baoan, Guangdong~
> 
> We don't say tiu na ma to anyone who has different lineages, we say tiu na ma to racist retarded Nanman loser~ Hey EatShxt, guess what? I "tiu" your "ma"~ Oh wait, I forgot that your mom is also your grandma, disgusting as hell.





> KirovAirship said: ↑
> Unfortunately to Nanman dog, in the reality, I have never seen a single case of cultural conflict like this~
> We are living in a civilized society peacefully, we the normal people don't give a flying FXXK to which background you are from. Even Macaunes people (native-born Portuguese) are not considered as foreigners and they can even speak perfectly Cantonese~
> Who freaking cares if there were conflicts between different people~ There are uncountable wars and conflicts since the first human was born in this world~ Northern German (Prussian) conquered Souhern German. Northern Italy united South Italy (Sicily and etc) by force. India have been invaded by several invaders (Aryan, Mongolian Mughal..) and they were all the roots of India. So why don't you sell your harsh(TM) to every ethnicity and every nations in the freaking world~ Anyway you are the one who will be killed by poor minorities in Vietnam, even though you are a fake freaking Kinh.



Oh and by the way, retard, posting your response (bullshxts) or not doesn't change the fact that you are a bloody, uneducated, shameless, racist failure~ Keep hiding around you lil dirty rat~


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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> Congratulation to 40 million True Native Cantonese. There is great when you can preserved your original Nan Yue paternal blood lineage and your Tai/Katay language with 8
> tonal.
> 
> Cantonese native people don't let such fake Hans cheating you, immigrated in time of collapsing of Tang Dynasty. Hakka are not Han, they are Xiongnu (Xi Rong). Hokkien are mixed with nomads (Bei Di), they preserved many Altaic words, which they shared with Korean and Japanese in ancient time.
> 
> Native pure Nan YUE people speak Yue langguange.



The YUE, in Nanyue, and the Yue for Cantonese are entirely different characters.

*粵*語Yuèyǔ= Cantonese

南*越* Nányuè



As for your lies about Hokkien, who are Fujian Han, they have 100% northern Han y chromosomes.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books



> Y chromosome data show that on average southern Chinese Han have a large paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han (82%). But mtDNA data show that southern Chinese Han have equal maternal contributions from northern Chinese Han (56%) and southern Chinese natives ( 44%) (Table 4A). The high paternal but lower maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han indicate strong sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han over the past two millennia (Wen et al. 2004). A more recent comparison of paternal and maternal data confirmed the sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han (Xue et al. 2008).
> 
> *When we consider the admixture proportions of Fujian Han and Guangdong Han, the ancestors of Taiwanese Han, sex-biased admixture is even more evident than in the southern Chinese Han averages. Fujian Han are estimated to have a 100 percent paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han but only a 34 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. Guangdong Han are estimated to have 68 percent paternal but only 1 5 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. The maternal contributions from southern Chinese natives to Fujian and Guangdong Han were estimated as 66 percent and 85 percent (Table 3A), respectively. The extreme sex-biased contributions in Fujian Han and Guangdong Han indicate that the male ancestors of Taiwanese Han frequently intermarried with the female ancestors of southern Chinese natives before they migrated to Taiwan.
> 
> This sex-bias illustrates a significant feature of the Han expansion: many male migrants from northern China married women from local non-Han populations in the south. Therefore, the Han-grandfathers-Indigenous-grandmothers folk saying seems to apply generally to southern China over the past two millenia.*



As for your lies about the Hakka- 80% of their y chromosomes is Han, the rest are from native southerners like the hmong mien She people and tai kadai like the Kam people. The Hakka mtdna (from the mother) is native.

Fujianese (Hokkien) Teochew, and Hakka Y chromosomes are indistinguishible from each other, they do NOT form seperate groups.

ScholarBank@NUS: Terms of Use



> Using subject-declared dialect group affiliations, it was confirmed that Fujianese, Teochew, & Hakka Zhang Y Chromosomes do not form genetically distinguishable groups (STR & SNP Exact Test p = 1.0000 +/- 0 & 0.0673 +/- 0.0059, respectively).



[Origin of Hakka and Hakkanese: a genet - PubMed Mobile



> [Origin of Hakka and Hakkanese: a genetics analysis].
> 
> AuthorsLi H, et al. Show all Journal
> Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2003 Sep;30(9):873-80. Article in Chinese.
> 
> Affiliation
> Center for Anthropological Studies at Fudan University, Shanghai 200433, China. LH@cableplus.com.cn
> 
> Abstract
> Hakka is a distinctive Han Chinese population in Southern China speaking Hakkanese. The origin of Hakka has been controversial. In this report, we analyzed Y chromosomal markers in 148 Hakka males. *Principle component analysis of Y-SNP haplotype distribution shows Hakka is clusteed strongly with the Han in Northern China,* and is also close to She, a Hmong-Mien-speaking population, while the general Southern Han is fairly close to Daic populations. *Admixture analysis revealed that the relative genetic contribution 80.2% (Han), *13% (She) and 6.8% (Kam) in Hakka. The network of Y-STR haplotype of M7 individuals in all concerned populations suggested two possible origins of Hmong-Mien contribution in Hakka: One is from Hubei and the other is from Canton. The Kam contribution in Hakka is likely from Kan-Yue, the ancient aborigine of Kiangsi (Jiangxi). The frequency of 9bp-deletion in Region V of mitochondrial DNA of Hakka is 19.7%, which is quite close to She but far from Han. *We therefore concluded that genetically the majority of Hakka gene pool shall come from North Han *with She contributing the most among all non-Han groups.
> 
> PMID 14577381 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Hakka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Origins, migrations and group identification[edit]
> 
> Hakka distribution in China, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan
> *It is commonly held that the Hakka are a subgroup of the Han Chinese that originated in northern China.[8][9] To trace their origins, three accepted theories so far have been brought forth among anthropologists, linguists, and historians:[10] firstly, the Hakka are Han Chinese originating solely from the Central Plain in China containing today's Shanxi and Henan provinces;[10] secondly, the Hakka are Han Chinese from the Central Plain, with some inflow of those already in the south;[10] or thirdly, the majority of the Hakka are Han Chinese from the south, with portions coming from those in the north.[10] The latter two are the most likely and are together supported by multiple scientific studies.[9][10][11]* Clyde Kiang stated that the Hakka's origins may also be linked with the Han's ancient neighbors, the Dongyi and Xiongnu people.[12] *This is disputed, however, by many scholars and Kiang's theories are considered controversial.[13] [/bWIt is known that the earliest major waves of Hakka migration began due to the attacks of the two afore-mentioned tribes during the Jin Dynasty (265–420).[14]*

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## EastSea

Wholegrain said:


> The YUE, in Nanyue, and the Yue for Cantonese are entirely different characters.
> 
> *粵*語Yuèyǔ= Cantonese
> 
> 南*越* Nányuè
> 
> 
> 
> As for your lies about Hokkien, who are Fujian Han, they have 100% northern Han y chromosomes.
> 
> How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books
> 
> 
> 
> As for your lies about the Hakka- 80% of their y chromosomes is Han, the rest are from native southerners like the hmong mien She people and tai kadai like the Kam people. The Hakka mtdna (from the mother) is native.
> 
> Fujianese (Hokkien) Teochew, and Hakka Y chromosomes are indistinguishible from each other, they do NOT form seperate groups.
> 
> ScholarBank@NUS: Terms of Use
> 
> 
> 
> [Origin of Hakka and Hakkanese: a genet - PubMed Mobile
> 
> 
> 
> Hakka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I stated in my early post that:



> Hakka are not Han, they are Xiongnu (Xi Rong). Hokkien are mixed with nomads (Bei Di), they preserved many Altaic words, which they shared with Korean and Japanese in ancient time.
> 
> Native pure Nan YUE people speak Yue langguange.



and read here, Wiki is also stated that Mandarin and Cantonese (Yue) are two languages is in Sino-Tibetan language family only, not one language.



> The languages that are most spoken in the world today belong to the:
> 
> Indo-European family, which includes languages such as English,Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, and Hindi; the
> 
> Sino-Tibetan family, which includes Mandarin Chinese, Cantonese, and many others; the
> 
> Afro-Asiatic family, which includes Arabic, Amharic, Somali, and Hebrew; and the Bantu languages, which include Swahili, Zulu, Shona, and hundreds of other languages spoken throughout Africa.




Look at again the graphic here-under.

1/ Cantonese (Nan Yue people), Hakka, Hokkien peoples don't shared same bloodline with Northern Han (in *He Nan province*, there is native land of Han Chinese).

2/ Hakka, Hokkien peoples's Bloodline is differed from Native Cantonese, because they migrated late on from North to South around thousand years. They speak their own language at home, like Wu Yue people do in Sahanghai and Zhejiang. Many Celtic words are still speaking in Hokkien communities.

3/ When you prefer to say about paternal Y DNA, don't forget that 40 % of Cantonese and 37 % of Zhejiang WuYue people are preserved their original blood from their father.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> I stated in my early post that:
> 
> 
> 
> and read here, Wiki is also stated that Mandarin and Cantonese (Yue) are two languages is in Sino-Tibetan language family only, not one language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at again the graphic here-under.
> 
> 1/ Cantonese (Nan Yue people), Hakka, Hokkien peoples don't shared same bloodline with Northern Han (in *He Nan province*, there is native land of Han Chinese).
> 
> 2/ Hakka, Hokkien peoples's Bloodline is differed from Native Cantonese, because they migrated late on from North to South around thousand years. They speak their own language at home, like Wu Yue people do in Sahanghai and Zhejiang. Many Celtic words are still speaking in Hokkien communities.
> 
> 3/ When you prefer to say about paternal Y DNA, don't forget that 40 % of Cantonese and 37 % of Zhejiang WuYue people are preserved their original blood from their father.



lol, this graph is bullsh1t, we don't carry that much of O1, and i don't look like a Viet at all.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> lol, this graph is bullsh1t, we don't carry that much of O1, and i don't look like a Viet at all.



Yes,

KinhViet and NgoViet (Wu Yue) people don't have nothing to do each to other; we are ASEAN people and we speak Mon-Khmer languages, you are EAST ASIA people and you speak native Wu Yue language, which language in speech to Han people and Cantonese people they can not understand what you are just talking about. You know it as well because you are Zhejiang-ren, so that Shanghai-ren could exclude Peking-ren from ongoing conversation very easy.

This bullshxt graphic made by Chinese experts,


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## Viet

EastSea said:


> You are not right bro.
> 
> Most of aggressive Chinese members here on forum are not true Han Chinese, they are Manchus, *Hakka*, Hokkien etc. or should come from area there was Nan Yue, Wu Yue, Min Yue land in the past.
> 
> I wandered when I dropped first in to PDF that: why they are very aggressive ? When this guys their ancestors in the past were conquered by Han Chinese ?
> 
> My answer is very simple, such boys try to show of themselves as best as possible that they are more Han than Han Chinese who living now in Middle land of China, to compensate or hidden their inferior mentality.
> 
> In fact I ignore the guy who open his mouth with full of bullshixt.


I´m tired of such discussion. Will this ever end?

Look, actually we should answer two basic questions: Who are the Chinese and who are the Han people?

Well, the first question is easily answered: all citizens within China border are Chinese. Agreed?
So Chinese people consist of the Han (92%) as majority and 55 other ethnic groups (8%).

Who are the ethnic groups:

The major minority ethnic groups are Zhuang (16.9 million), Hui (10.5 million), Manchu (10.3 million), Uyghur (10 million), Miao (9.4 million),Yi (8.7 million), Tujia (8.3 million), Tibetan (6.2 million), Mongol (5.9 million), Dong (2.8 million), Buyei (2.8 million), Yao (2.7 million), Bai(1.9 million), Korean (1.8 million), Hani (1.6 million), Li (1.4 million),Kazakh (1.4 million), and Dai (1.2 million).

And who are the Han?

First, Han Chinese trace their ancestry back to the Huaxia people, who lived along the _Huang He_ or Yellow River in northern China. But more than that. Han people are those who embrace common Han´s cultures and custom. They are NOT defined by blood line, e.i. they are mixed, consisting of different ethnic groups. Hakka is Han.

Second, and what are Han´s cultures and custom?

Basically, three components make up the Han: Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. Han Chinese speak Mandarin and some dozen dialects. KirovAirship says he is Han, so he is. End of discussion. Imagine: you are an alien coming from Mars planet, if you adopt Han´s cultures and custom, you become Han. Clear?

We the Viets are the Han, too, as per this definition because most of us practice Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. You can say we are Han Viet, and they are Han Chinese. At the beginning of the 19 century, even our Emperor Gia Long declared explicitly Vietnam as Middle Kingdom and his people as the Han.

I hope that is clear now we all can stop here. Last but not least, pls stop discussing on "blood line". Only NAZI cares of a such thing.

Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of ethnic groups in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> lol, this graph is bullsh1t, we don't carry that much of O1, and* i don't look like a Viet at all.*


agreed, indeed the Viets look more SE Asians than Northern Chinese.


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## meis

Go **** yourself Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists or whatever you call yourself. I am Han Chinese Cantonese and I have more Chinese blood than you all Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists all combined, you Kinh/Khmer/etc. There is about 1 million Chinese out of 90+ million in Vietnam, and they will be Kinh-nized/Viet-nized real soon.

Go read a book about EVOLUTION.

Debunked since 2005.
Why are southern Han considered "Hanized" natives? - Chinese Ethnic Groups and Peoples - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum

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## Viet

meis said:


> Go **** yourself Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists or whatever you call yourself. I am Han Chinese Cantonese and I have more Chinese blood than you all Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists all combined, you Kinh/Khmer/etc. There is about 1 million Chinese out of 90+ million in Vietnam, and they will be Kinh-nized/Viet-nized real soon.
> 
> Go read a book about EVOLUTION.
> 
> Debunked since 2005.
> Why are southern Han considered "Hanized" natives? - Chinese Ethnic Groups and Peoples - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum


Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists? are you mad?


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## meis

Viet said:


> Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists? are you mad?


I feel bad that the likes of you're mentally ill.



> Vietnamese people are sinophobic racists, which is part of the core culture. Its not ''some'' vietnamese who make these claims, its the majority. A widespread problem indeed.
> 
> Step 1) They take a map of china during the zhou, qin, and han dynasties
> 
> Step2) They look at a 2012 map of china
> 
> Step3) They claim the warring states, zhou dynasty, qin dynasty, and han dynasty as ''northern'' empires that spoke ''mandarin'' (I don't think anybody knew mandarin at the time). Its because these dynasties and states were rooted in the central plains in north china, another example of vietnamese location logic with complete disregard of historical contexts.
> 
> Step4) They point to guangdong on the 2012 map and claim every cantonese to be tai-kadai (Baiyue), fujianese as minyue (austronesian), etc. Minyue and Nanyue existed in guangdong and fujian 2200 years ago and the modern day inhabitants in these regions must be their pure descendents. Vietnamese logic dictates that location determines who people are. Too bad the migrants just disappeared into thin air, if vietnamese nationalists can explain this houdini trick.
> 
> Step5) Since Mandarin speakers occupy northern china in large numbers, then they must be the same as the zhou, qin, han, and early huaxia. Its only a matter of convenience for the vietnamese. Same location = same people. China's civilization started in the north so the northerners must have conquered the southerners. Too bad the vietnamese forgot about steppe invasions in northern china and migrations south after the han dynasty. Its also sad that the vietnamese forgot about the old chinese language spoken by the zhou, qin, and han dynasties. They must have thought old chinese = proto mandarin, lol.
> 
> step6) Overall, Vietnamese people use a couple maps and draw erroneous conclusions based on faulty evidence and logic. This is what they mean when they say their claims are ''supported'' by history, because its not.
> 
> Step7) By making the yue claim, the vietnamese are in effect saying that Cantonese are tai-kadai zhuang people, fujianese are austronesian people, jiangnanese are hmong-mien people, and sichuanese are ba-shu people (an extension of their logic was used as an example on sichuan). Baiyue is a diverse group, just because a tribe is yue doesn't mean its automatically vietnamese. Vietnam = Lac viet (Long lac quan) + au viet (Au co).
> 
> Step8) They always talk about Han vs Yue. Funny....Han chinese is a modern ethnic concept. Baiyue is not a race, its a generic term for a diverse group of people. If Baiyue was one race, then zhuang, dai, miao, yao, li, maonan, vietnamese, etc....would go under a single panethnic label or a general umbrella. Han vs yue = comparing apples and bananas
> 
> Basically, the vietnamese jump to conclusions and make silly remarks based on ancient locations. Liu Bang wasn't a northerner. In fact, he came from chu, the southermost warring state. The zhou dynasty was a collection of tribes. Vietnamese don't know what han chinese is and generally, they are wrong about china. This type of historiography is unacceptable. There is nothing wrong with cantonese, fujianese, having yue blood. It doesn't make them less chinese as northerners have steppe and altaic genes too.
> 
> BTW, I've seen them using the term northern huaxia, lol. Huaxia were a confederation of tribes, but I don't think they spoke mandarin.


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## elis

Viet said:


> I´m tired of such discussion. Will this ever end?


Please relax, nobody cares anyway
Since the beginning i don't understand one word of your debate about ethnicity

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## Wholegrain

EastSea said:


> I stated in my early post that:
> 
> 
> 
> and read here, Wiki is also stated that Mandarin and Cantonese (Yue) are two languages is in Sino-Tibetan language family only, not one language.



Nope you liar, you claimed Cantonese was a Tai Kadai language



EastSea said:


> Congratulation to 40 million True Native Cantonese. There is great when you can preserved your original Nan Yue paternal blood lineage and your Tai/Katay language with 8
> tonal.



Cantonese is in the Sinitic (Chinese) family of languages, Mandarin, Yue (Cantonese), Wu, Hokkien and Hakka are all part of the Sinitic (Chinese) branch of Sino-Tibetan and descended from Old Chinese and Middle Chinese. They are seperate from the Tibeto-Burman branch.

Varieties of Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Chinese (hànyǔ 汉语/漢語 or zhōngguóhuà 中国话/中國話) comprises many regional language varieties sometimes grouped together as the Chinese dialects, the primary ones being Mandarin, Wu, Yue, and Min.*



Sinitic languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia












Old Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Middle Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



EastSea said:


> Look at again the graphic here-under.
> 
> 1/ Cantonese (Nan Yue people), Hakka, Hokkien peoples don't shared same bloodline with Northern Han (in *He Nan province*, there is native land of Han Chinese).
> 
> 2/ Hakka, Hokkien peoples's Bloodline is differed from Native Cantonese, because they migrated late on from North to South around thousand years. They speak their own language at home, like Wu Yue people do in Sahanghai and Zhejiang. Many Celtic words are still speaking in Hokkien communities.
> 
> 3/ When you prefer to say about paternal Y DNA, don't forget that 40 % of Cantonese and 37 % of Zhejiang WuYue people are preserved their original blood from their father.



Congragulations liar, again, for showing us that the majority of Northern Han, and Southern Han (Cantonese, Hakka, and Hokkien) share the same Y chromosome haplogroup O3.

40% and 37% are minorities. Most Cantonese (over 60%) and Wu speaking people (again over 60%) share the same Y haplogroup O3 with northern Han from Henan.

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## jhungary

elis said:


> Austro asiatic are you joking? They all look like the asians



You do know Austro-Asiatic mean East Asianic right? Austro mean "East" and not just Austria


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## elis

jhungary said:


> You do know Austro-Asiatic mean East Asianic right? Austro mean "East" and not just Austria


This is better. 

I thought he spoke about the indonesians. Some indonesians women have big boobs like westerners but not all


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## Rechoice

Viet said:


> I´m tired of such discussion. Will this ever end?
> 
> Look, actually we should answer two basic questions: Who are the Chinese and who are the Han people?
> 
> Well, the first question is easily answered: all citizens within China border are Chinese. Agreed?
> So Chinese people consist of the Han (92%) as majority and 55 other ethnic groups (8%).
> 
> Who are the ethnic groups:
> 
> The major minority ethnic groups are Zhuang (16.9 million), Hui (10.5 million), Manchu (10.3 million), Uyghur (10 million), Miao (9.4 million),Yi (8.7 million), Tujia (8.3 million), Tibetan (6.2 million), Mongol (5.9 million), Dong (2.8 million), Buyei (2.8 million), Yao (2.7 million), Bai(1.9 million), Korean (1.8 million), Hani (1.6 million), Li (1.4 million),Kazakh (1.4 million), and Dai (1.2 million).
> 
> And who are the Han?
> 
> First, Han Chinese trace their ancestry back to the Huaxia people, who lived along the _Huang He_ or Yellow River in northern China. But more than that. Han people are those who embrace common Han´s cultures and custom. They are NOT defined by blood line, e.i. they are mixed, consisting of different ethnic groups. Hakka is Han.
> 
> Second, and what are Han´s cultures and custom?
> 
> Basically, three components make up the Han: Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. Han Chinese speak Mandarin and some dozen dialects. KirovAirship says he is Han, so he is. End of discussion. Imagine: you are an alien coming from Mars planet, if you adopt Han´s cultures and custom, you become Han. Clear?
> 
> We the Viets are the Han, too, as per this definition because most of us practice Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. You can say we are Han Viet, and they are Han Chinese. At the beginning of the 19 century, even our Emperor Gia Long declared explicitly Vietnam as Middle Kingdom and his people as the Han.
> 
> I hope that is clear now we all can stop here. Last but not least, pls stop discussing on "blood line". Only NAZI cares of a such thing.
> 
> Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> List of ethnic groups in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You have big mistake.

Kinh people is no Han, its clear. Your idea is very funny.

In the past, under influences of Confucius, Emperor Gia Long could say "Hán di hữu hạn" he could referred to the idea or "concept" of *Khổng Tử* (chữ Hán: 孔子) to make clear differences between majority people (Kinh) and minority people (Thượng) only.

It doesn't mean he claimed that Vietnamese Kinh people are Han people. people in Vietnam say "Kinh - Thương" with the same idea "civilized people - barbarian people".

This is trash made by white-man historian is accepted by part of oversea Vietnamese. There is problem when we used Han Ji to writing in the past, it can lead to misunderstanding.

Same story could related to Ho Chi Minh, when he said about "Communism proletariat" it doesn't mean he is muscle worker or Jew (Karl Max is jew), it is just an idea of him under Marxism - Leninism about the fighting or struggle between Capitalist and Worker class in history (period of Capitalism) .

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## Viet

Rechoice said:


> You have big mistake.
> 
> Kinh people is no Han, its clear. Your idea is very funny.
> 
> In the past, under influences of Confucius, Emperor Gia Long could say "Hán di hữu hạn" he could referred to the idea or "concept" of *Khổng Tử* (chữ Hán: 孔子) to make clear differences between majority people (Kinh) and minority people (Thượng) only.
> 
> It doesn't mean he claimed that Vietnamese Kinh people are Han people. people in Vietnam say "Kinh - Thương" with the same idea "civilized people - barbarian people".
> 
> This is trash made by white-man historian is accepted by part of oversea Vietnamese. There is problem when we used Han Ji to writing in the past, it can lead to misunderstanding.
> 
> Same story could related to Ho Chi Minh, when he said about "Communism proletariat" it doesn't mean he is muscle worker or Jew (Karl Max is jew), it is just an idea of him under Marxism - Leninism about the fighting or struggle between Capitalist and Worker class in history (period of Capitalism) .


Relax, first we should not pay too much attention to a world (in this case "Han") and exaggerate the meaning. Chinese say "Han" is a cultural umbrella. It does not refer to ethnics, races, countries or political view. As we know three key elements of Han cultures and custom are Ancestor worship, Confucism and Taoism. We can discuss the topic to death.

For example, who am I?

For the Germans, I am a German because I live in the country, work for German company, have a German passport and am familiar with their cultures and custom. For most of the people I am seen as German. I accept this without problem. Besides, I am seen as Viet because my parents are Vietnamese, and I was born in Vietnam. I accept this, too. So I am free to decide which group I belong to: I take both views. For others it may be different.

Second, We are ethnic Kinh, the ethnic minorities are generally seen as moi (barbarians). I understand that is not a nice view. You mentioned Gia Long and Ho Chi Minh. Below again I post the link of the article in wiki telling about Emperor Gia Long. Ho Chi Minh did not say anything about Han.


Sinocentrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_However, Vietnam was also heavily Sinicized, using Classical Chinese as its official literary language and adopting most aspects of Chinese culture, including the administrative system, architecture, philosophy, religion, literature of China, and even a general cultural outlook. Vietnam persistently identified itself in relation to China, regarding itself as the kingdom of the south as against China in the north, as seen in this line from a poem (in Classical Chinese) by General Lý Thường Kiệt (李常傑) (1019–1105): Nam Quốc sơn hà Nam Đế cư. (南國山河南帝居), which means "Over mountains and rivers of the South reigns the Emperor of the South"

In adopting Chinese customs, the Vietnamese court also adopted Sinocentric world view as it became increasingly Confucianist during the expanding Le and Nguyen dynasties. In 1805, the Emperor Gia Long referred to Vietnam as trung quốc, the "middle kingdom".[9] In 1811, Gia Long proposed a law Hán di hữu hạn (漢夷有限), which means "making clear the border between the Vietnamese and barbarians", referring to the Vietnamese as Han people.[10] Cambodia was regularly called Cao Man Quốc (高蠻國), the country of "upper barbarians". In 1815, Gia Long claimed 13 countries as Vietnamese vassals, including Luang Prabang, Vientane, Burma, Tran Ninh Plateau in eastern Laos, and two countries called "Thủy Xá Quốc" and "Hỏa Xá Quốc", which were actually Malayo-Polynesian Jarai tribes living between Vietnam and Thailand. Mirroring the Chinese model, the Vietnamese court attempted to regulate the presentation of tribute to the Vietnamese court, participation in New Year and emperor's birthday ceremonies, as well as the travel routes and size of tributary missions.[11]_

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Then you shouldn't have call that guy a *troll *since she is defending our people from that creature's nonsense.


I was referring to the post #688 of wholegrain. I asked him for providing sources, and he replied by posting 8 books and 2 web links. Very funny. Besides, he intentionally provoked me by posting a link of Chinese massacre on Vietnamese sailors in 1988.

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## EastSea

Viet said:


> I´m tired of such discussion. Will this ever end?
> 
> Look, actually we should answer two basic questions: Who are the Chinese and who are the Han people?
> 
> Well, the first question is easily answered: all citizens within China border are Chinese. Agreed?
> So Chinese people consist of the Han (92%) as majority and 55 other ethnic groups (8%).
> 
> Who are the ethnic groups:
> 
> The major minority ethnic groups are Zhuang (16.9 million), Hui (10.5 million), Manchu (10.3 million), Uyghur (10 million), Miao (9.4 million),Yi (8.7 million), Tujia (8.3 million), Tibetan (6.2 million), Mongol (5.9 million), Dong (2.8 million), Buyei (2.8 million), Yao (2.7 million), Bai(1.9 million), Korean (1.8 million), Hani (1.6 million), Li (1.4 million),Kazakh (1.4 million), and Dai (1.2 million).
> 
> And who are the Han?
> 
> First, Han Chinese trace their ancestry back to the Huaxia people, who lived along the _Huang He_ or Yellow River in northern China. But more than that. Han people are those who embrace common Han´s cultures and custom. They are NOT defined by blood line, e.i. they are mixed, consisting of different ethnic groups. Hakka is Han.
> 
> Second, and what are Han´s cultures and custom?
> 
> Basically, three components make up the Han: Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. Han Chinese speak Mandarin and some dozen dialects. KirovAirship says he is Han, so he is. End of discussion. Imagine: you are an alien coming from Mars planet, if you adopt Han´s cultures and custom, you become Han. Clear?
> 
> We the Viets are the Han, too, as per this definition because most of us practice Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. You can say we are Han Viet, and they are Han Chinese. At the beginning of the 19 century, even our Emperor Gia Long declared explicitly Vietnam as Middle Kingdom and his people as the Han.
> 
> I hope that is clear now we all can stop here. Last but not least, pls stop discussing on "blood line". Only NAZI cares of a such thing.
> 
> Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> List of ethnic groups in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I think you have misunderstanding the base definition of concept "ethnicity" or "ethnic group" and do not understand concepts of "Nation" and concept of "Citizenship".

Ethnic group shall defined base on 4 ethnic identity criteria:

shared descent ("of the same blood")
shared language ("speaking the same language")
shared sanctuaries and sacrifices
shared customs
Ethnic group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In case of a group of people could satisfy only one of four criteria mentioned above, it should not make this group people to be recognize automatically as one ethnic group.

For example using chopsticks by meals. China, Korean and Japan people use chopsticks, but they don't shared same ethnicity.

You said that Kinh people are Han, or Han Viet, íts wrong. You forgotten that Jingzu ỏr Gin people is one separate ethnic group in China (CPC) is recognized by law.

any case, I stop for the matter of Bloodline. But I will response reasonably for any troll if it could be here.


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## yue10

meis said:


> *Go **** yourself* Pro-Yue *Viet Kinh* Nationalists or whatever you call yourself. I am Han Chinese Cantonese and I have more Chinese blood than you all Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists all combined, you Kinh/Khmer/etc. There is about 1 million Chinese out of 90+ million in Vietnam, and they will be Kinh-nized/Viet-nized real soon.
> 
> Go read a book about EVOLUTION.
> 
> Debunked since 2005.
> Why are southern Han considered "Hanized" natives? - Chinese Ethnic Groups and Peoples - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum




could someone tell me if the dude here is true Kinh? since he most likely carried o2a and 'preserved original Kinh paternal blood lineage'  





also could someone said why the first capital was in Hoa Lu and not Hanoi as it should be


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> could someone tell me if the dude here is true Kinh? since he most likely carried o2a and 'preserved original Kinh paternal blood lineage'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also could someone said why the first capital was in Hoa Lu and not Hanoi as it should be



He don't look like Vietnamese, bro.

Hoa Lu is hometown of our Emperor Dinh Tien Hoang, who is founder of Dinh Dynasty of Vietnam. There was first capital of us.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> I think you have misunderstanding the base definition of concept "ethnicity" or "ethnic group" and do not understand concepts of "Nation" and concept of "Citizenship".
> 
> Ethnic group shall defined base on 4 ethnic identity criteria:
> 
> shared descent ("of the same blood")
> shared language ("speaking the same language")
> shared sanctuaries and sacrifices
> shared customs
> Ethnic group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> In case of a group of people could satisfy only one of four criteria mentioned above, it should not make this group people to be recognize automatically as one ethnic group.
> 
> For example using chopsticks by meals. China, Korean and Japan people use chopsticks, but they don't shared same ethnicity.
> 
> You said that Kinh people are Han, or Han Viet, íts wrong. You forgotten that Jingzu ỏr Gin people is one separate ethnic group in China (CPC) is recognized by law.
> 
> any case, I stop for the matter of Bloodline. But I will response reasonably for any troll if it could be here.



Next time when you try to be stupid and copy & paste from your Mr.Wikipedia, try to ACTUALLY read it:



> *Herodotus (8.144.2) gave a famous account of what defined Greek (Hellenic) ethnic identity in his day, enumerating *
> 
> shared descent (ὅμαιμον - _homaimon_, "of the same blood"[14])
> shared language (ὁμόγλωσσον - _homoglōsson_, "speaking the same language"[15])
> shared sanctuaries and sacrifices (Greek: θεῶν ἱδρύματά τε κοινὰ καὶ θυσίαι - _theōn hidrumata te koina kai thusiai_)[16]
> shared customs (Greek: ἤθεα ὁμότροπα - _ēthea homotropa_, "customs of like fashion")



No wonder there are such old, outdated concept of Shared Customs and even Shared Descent. People who has a normal brain would have found that these definitions are abnormal and inappropriate NOWADAYS.


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## yue10

EastSea said:


> He don't look like Vietnamese, bro.
> 
> Hoa Lu is hometown of our Emperor Dinh Tien Hoang, who is founder of Dinh Dynasty of Vietnam. There was first capital of us.


stop your calling me as 'bro' ok my Annam friend, look here your quote 



EastSea said:


> *Congratulation to 40 million True Native Cantonese. There is great when you can preserved your original Nan Yue paternal blood lineage* and your Tai/Katay language with 8
> tonal.
> Cantonese native people don't let such fake Hans cheating you, immigrated in time of collapsing of Tang Dynasty. Hakka are not Han, they are Xiongnu (Xi Rong). Hokkien are mixed with nomads (Bei Di), they preserved many Altaic words, which they shared with Korean and Japanese in ancient time.
> Native pure Nan YUE people speak Yue langguange.


idiot Annams should not trusting this genetic stuff
the dude in pic is paternally descended from Kinh, his grandfather, a '100%' Kinh passed down probably o2a to his father, his father passed o2a to him, according your Annam logic he is 'preserved original Kinh paternal blood lineage' so he true Kinh no? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Trinh-Duc

the question is why is the capital in Hoa Lu and not Hanoi, isn't Kinh is supposed to be Jiaozhi commandery people so what the capital doing all the way in the south at Ninh Binh


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## Viet

EastSea said:


> I think you have misunderstanding the base definition of concept "ethnicity" or "ethnic group" and do not understand concepts of "Nation" and concept of "Citizenship".
> 
> Ethnic group shall defined base on 4 ethnic identity criteria:
> 
> shared descent ("of the same blood")
> shared language ("speaking the same language")
> shared sanctuaries and sacrifices
> shared customs
> Ethnic group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> In case of a group of people could satisfy only one of four criteria mentioned above, it should not make this group people to be recognize automatically as one ethnic group.
> 
> For example using chopsticks by meals. China, Korean and Japan people use chopsticks, but they don't shared same ethnicity.
> 
> You said that Kinh people are Han, or Han Viet, íts wrong. You forgotten that Jingzu ỏr Gin people is one separate ethnic group in China (CPC) is recognized by law.
> 
> any case, I stop for the matter of Bloodline. But I will response reasonably for any troll if it could be here.


Again, we are talking of who are Han people and what are Han´s cultures and custom.

As KirovAirship says, (and correct me if I´m wrong) Han people share a common cultures and custom, you can say a single cultural umbrella. Besides Ancester worship, Confucism and Taoism, Buddhism is another character of the Han. The Han people are heterogeneous, they belong to different ethnics and speak different Chinese dialects with mandarin as preferred languague. But first and foremost Han is not about DNA, nations, languages, ethnics or races. It is not about citizenship, either. At least no directly related. Well, China is the home of the Han, and most of the Han have a common DNA trait. No doubt about it.

How about the Jing people in China? why this ethnic minority, which immigrated from Vietnam hundreds of years ago is seen as minority and not Han? I can´t tell you, but I assume it is a matter of politics. Perhaps KirovAirship can tell us why? In this point, we see Han concept is a bit cloudy.

The concept of Han is reminds me to that of Western countries, called "Christian traditions". It is somewhat similar. As you know the *European Union* (*EU*) is an economic and political union of 28 independent states, and all of them share Christian traditions. Germany is a part of it. France, too.

What are Christian traditions of these western countries? well, they are a set of similar traditions, religions (most Christians), cultures and custom which are developed and evolved with the times. For instance the French, the Germans and the Greeks think they belong to a family.

Here is a graph showing different christian traditions, but one common root:







 Since decades (50 years), Turkey is trying to become a member of this family, they fail. Why? Because_* the Turks are Muslims. They have different cultures and custom. *_Others don´t want them.


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## Snomannen

The concept of ethnic in China and other East Asian nations didn't follow the western/ modern definition. Yet no matter which definition you refer to, there is always a common -Han people is not defined by bloodline.

There were countless ethnics form Northern China are not "existed" anymore, since they were all sinicized and mixed with Huaxia 華夏族 (descendant of the people of Xia Shang and Zhou):

鮮卑 Xianbei, encouraged themselves to be sinicized and copied everything from Han culture;

女 真 Jurchen, founder of Jing Dynasty, had themselves to learn Han culture. The princess of Jing was even being called "Han Princess 漢公主". Many of them became Han during the Yuan Dynasty and the rest who didn't being sinicized much (lived outside the middle land) became the ancestor of Manchurian;

契丹Khitan, most of them either became part of Mongolian or part of Han.

In my opinion, Gin (Kinh) people is not included as Han because of both political and cultural reasons. Based on what I have learned from the government website, Gin people can speak Mandarin, Cantonese and Vietnamese and own both Han and Kinh cultures. They are considered as a monitory because they can present as a bridge of maintaining the relationship between Chinese and Vietnamese and the matter of protecting various cultures in China.

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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> stop your calling me as 'bro' ok my Annam friend, look here your quote
> 
> 
> idiot Annams should not trusting this genetic stuff
> the dude in pic is paternally descended from Kinh, his grandfather, a '100%' Kinh passed down probably o2a to his father, his father passed o2a to him, according your Annam logic he is 'preserved original Kinh paternal blood lineage' so he true Kinh no?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> 
> the question is why is the capital in Hoa Lu and not Hanoi, isn't Kinh is supposed to be Jiaozhi commandery people so what the capital doing all the way in the south at Ninh Binh



OK, I stop call you as "bro", I will call you "kid".

Read again my comment above, I said "he doesn't look like Vietnamese" I didn't said that "he is not Vietnamese". Its' different.

when I have been to in Europa, my class mate is Jew, he told me "If your mother is Jew, you are Jew. If your father is Jew, you should be not Jew". So that Obama is Jew. 

for the case of François Trinh-Duc, we have to make a DNA testing, the result should tell us who is he, is he Vietnamese or not. Do you understand, kid ? 

For the Capital City of Vietnam, it was changed time to time. There was Phong Chau, Melinh, Co Loa, Hoa Lu, Thang long, Hue, Saigon ... It's depended on own willing of our Kings, where is good position for defense counter our enemies.


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## elis

EastSea said:


> He don't look like Vietnamese, bro.
> 
> Hoa Lu is hometown of our Emperor Dinh Tien Hoang, who is founder of Dinh Dynasty of Vietnam. There was first capital of us.


His name is François Trinh-Duc, a captain of the french rugby team

Another race mixed vietnamese that doesn't look like an asian


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## ChineseTiger1986

elis said:


> His name is François Trinh-Duc, a captain of the french rugby team
> 
> Another race mixed vietnamese that doesn't look like an asian



Yeah, i've seen many Viet/White mix person, many of them can pass as a South European or Middle Easterner.


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## elis

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yeah, i've seen many Viet/White mix person, many of them can pass as a South European or Middle Easterner.


Actually it depends, some looks indeed like south european, some still have slanty eyes
But they are usually white skinned, some have quite clear hair, some dark hair


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## Rechoice

Viet said:


> Relax, first we should not pay too much attention to a world (in this case "Han") and exaggerate the meaning. Chinese say "Han" is a cultural umbrella. It does not refer to ethnics, races, countries or political view. As we know three key elements of Han cultures and custom are Ancestor worship, Confucism and Taoism. We can discuss the topic to death.
> 
> For example, who am I?
> 
> For the Germans, I am a German because I live in the country, work for German company, have a German passport and am familiar with their cultures and custom. For most of the people I am seen as German. I accept this without problem. Besides, I am seen as Viet because my parents are Vietnamese, and I was born in Vietnam. I accept this, too. So I am free to decide which group I belong to: I take both views. For others it may be different.
> 
> Second, We are ethnic Kinh, the ethnic minorities are generally seen as moi (barbarians). I understand that is not a nice view. You mentioned Gia Long and Ho Chi Minh. Below again I post the link of the article in wiki telling about Emperor Gia Long. Ho Chi Minh did not say anything about Han.
> 
> 
> Sinocentrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> _However, Vietnam was also heavily Sinicized, using Classical Chinese as its official literary language and adopting most aspects of Chinese culture, including the administrative system, architecture, philosophy, religion, literature of China, and even a general cultural outlook. Vietnam persistently identified itself in relation to China, regarding itself as the kingdom of the south as against China in the north, as seen in this line from a poem (in Classical Chinese) by General Lý Thường Kiệt (李常傑) (1019–1105): Nam Quốc sơn hà Nam Đế cư. (南國山河南帝居), which means "Over mountains and rivers of the South reigns the Emperor of the South"
> 
> In adopting Chinese customs, the Vietnamese court also adopted Sinocentric world view as it became increasingly Confucianist during the expanding Le and Nguyen dynasties. In 1805, the Emperor Gia Long referred to Vietnam as trung quốc, the "middle kingdom".[9] In 1811, Gia Long proposed a law Hán di hữu hạn (漢夷有限), which means "making clear the border between the Vietnamese and barbarians", referring to the Vietnamese as Han people.[10] Cambodia was regularly called Cao Man Quốc (高蠻國), the country of "upper barbarians". In 1815, Gia Long claimed 13 countries as Vietnamese vassals, including Luang Prabang, Vientane, Burma, Tran Ninh Plateau in eastern Laos, and two countries called "Thủy Xá Quốc" and "Hỏa Xá Quốc", which were actually Malayo-Polynesian Jarai tribes living between Vietnam and Thailand. Mirroring the Chinese model, the Vietnamese court attempted to regulate the presentation of tribute to the Vietnamese court, participation in New Year and emperor's birthday ceremonies, as well as the travel routes and size of tributary missions.[11]_



You said: "Chinese say "Han" is a cultural umbrella. It does not refer to ethnics, ..."

No, Han ethnic group is a biggest ethnic group is recognized in China and in the world 



> The *Han Chinese* are an ethnic group native to East Asia. They constitute approximately 92% of the population of China, 98% of the population of Taiwan, 74% of the population of Singapore, 24.5% of the population of Malaysia, and about 20% of the entire global human population, making them the largest ethnic group in the world.



Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your parents are Vietnamese and your appearance looks 100 % Vietnamese (or bloodline). if you decide to claim that you belong to a Germanic ethnic group native (white man) in BRD. People could laugh or smile on you, even though it is may be permitted in German. White man German people can think that it's not correct and should look down at you.

Same story here and in other History forum, Northern Han China don't think Southern people are true Han.

*Northerner claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese - AsianFanatics Forum*


----------



## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> You said: "Chinese say "Han" is a cultural umbrella. It does not refer to ethnics, ..."
> 
> No, Han ethnic group is a biggest ethnic group is recognized in China and in the world
> 
> 
> 
> Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Your parents are Vietnamese and your appearance looks 100 % Vietnamese (or bloodline). if you decide to claim that you belong to a Germanic ethnic group native (white man) in BRD. People could laugh or smile on you, even though it is may be permitted in German. White man German people can think that it's not correct and should look down at you.
> 
> Same story here and in other History forum, Northern Han China don't think Southern people are true Han.
> 
> *Northerner claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese - AsianFanatics Forum*



As I have said, the concept of ethnic in China and other East Asian nations DIDN'T follow the definition from the western/ modern. Of course Han has a meaning referring to the largest ethnic group in the world since we adopted the western concept of nations/ ethnicity after the Empire was gone.
Do you even know that, when Mainland China was still ruled by the Republic (KMT), there were only 5 ethnics were recognized and some of the minorities such as Zhuang and Hmong nowadays were considered as Han.
Think about it, why didn't 鮮卑 Xianbei and 契丹 Khitan are considered as "minitories" in the PRC, why the princess of Jing (女 真 Jurchen) was being called "Han Princess 漢公主", why the Vietnamese King would have said something like "漢(Han)夷有限" but not "京(Kinh)夷有限". Why some stupid people keep saying Northern Han are "True Han" while they are the descendant of Hun, Jurchen, Xianbei and many others ancient ethnics which are no longer existed.

There was a saying in ancient China: 華入夷為夷 夷入華为華, which simply translated as : You are who your heart belongs to.


And why did you post that stupid link again.


Wholegrain said:


> Congragulations dumbass. You found a post on an english language online FORUM, by someone providing no sources and claiming to be southern Chinese. Cool story, I can create an account on that forum, pretend to be Vietnamese, and post threads about how Vietnamese are all descendants of Chimpanzees mating with baboons.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> You said: "Chinese say "Han" is a cultural umbrella. It does not refer to ethnics, ..."
> 
> No, Han ethnic group is a biggest ethnic group is recognized in China and in the world
> 
> 
> 
> Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Your parents are Vietnamese and your appearance looks 100 % Vietnamese (or bloodline). if you decide to claim that you belong to a Germanic ethnic group native (white man) in BRD. People could laugh or smile on you, even though it is may be permitted in German. White man German people can think that it's not correct and should look down at you.
> 
> Same story here and in other History forum, Northern Han China don't think Southern people are true Han.
> 
> *Northerner claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese - AsianFanatics Forum*



Bad example, both North Han and South Han are Sino-Tibetan Mongoloid people, while Germans belong to another race. This is apple to orange.

North Han and South Han is like North German to South German. And i also heard that some North German nationalists claimed that South Germans are the germanicized Celts, not pure Germanic people like the North Germans. This comparison should be similar to North Han and South Han.


----------



## yue10

Viet said:


> Again, we are talking of who are Han people and what are Han´s cultures and custom.
> As KirovAirship says, (and correct me if I´m wrong) Han people share a common cultures and custom, you can say a single cultural umbrella. Besides Ancester worship, Confucism and Taoism, Buddhism is another character of the Han. The Han people are heterogeneous, they belong to different ethnics and speak different Chinese dialects with mandarin as preferred languague. But first and foremost Han is not about DNA, nations, languages, ethnics or races. It is not about citizenship, either. At least no directly related. Well, China is the home of the Han, and most of the Han have a common DNA trait. No doubt about it.
> How about the Jing people in China? why this ethnic minority, which immigrated from Vietnam hundreds of years ago is seen as minority and not Han? I can´t tell you, but I assume it is a matter of politics. Perhaps KirovAirship can tell us why? In this point, we see Han concept is a bit cloudy.
> The concept of Han is reminds me to that of Western countries, called "Christian traditions". It is somewhat similar. As you know the *European Union* (*EU*) is an economic and political union of 28 independent states, and all of them share Christian traditions. Germany is a part of it. France, too.
> What are Christian traditions of these western countries? well, they are a set of similar traditions, religions (most Christians), cultures and custom which are developed and evolved with the times. For instance the French, the Germans and the Greeks think they belong to a family.
> Here is a graph showing different christian traditions, but one common root:
> Since decades (50 years), Turkey is trying to become a member of this family, they fail. Why? Because_* the Turks are Muslims. They have different cultures and custom. *_Others don´t want them.


the evil European are teaching you wrong concept of ethnic my Annam friend, there is both blood component and cultural component, if use your idea the dude Phillip Rosler is the German ethnic but it doesn’t work like that  bloodline matter but only where you are born as same race as your fellow ethnic, look here the girl born and raised in China but is she Han?
in future new ethnic minority of Guangzhou 






it could not also just be based on cultural alone since I read the Shanghai ren man is like a puzzy or the Yangdi and New Culture did not understand the concept of Confucianism so use your idea they are not Han, also today the Chinese is loving the Western culture like some Wenzhou ren worship in secret meeting for the Jidu, many also have Western name like their movie star and singer so they could not be Han, we could easily see what the Western style economic and consumerism will bring to them in the future, make me laugh when see them speaking about their hatred of whites but worship the Western culture so much


EastSea said:


> OK, I stop call you as "bro", I will call you "kid".
> Read again my comment above, I said "he doesn't look like Vietnamese" I didn't said that "he is not Vietnamese". Its' different.
> when I have been to in Europa, my class mate is Jew, he told me "If your mother is Jew, you are Jew. If your father is Jew, you should be not Jew". So that Obama is Jew.
> for the case of François Trinh-Duc, we have to make a DNA testing, the result should tell us who is he, is he Vietnamese or not. Do you understand, kid ?
> For the Capital City of Vietnam, it was changed time to time. There was Phong Chau, Melinh, Co Loa, Hoa Lu, Thang long, Hue, Saigon ... It's depended on own willing of our Kings, where is good position for defense counter our enemies.


just stop tried to weaselling your way out ok, your first reaction said he did not look as Viet then already it meant you did not consider him to be true Viet, what for need to test his DNA? his surname is Viet name, already that is enough to know paternally he is descended from Viet but more from Google his grandfather Viet, his father mix Viet, so according to your 'preserved original paternal blood lineage, he true Viet or not? 
for Jews there is also the Reform school my Annam friend, look here the Tiger Mother





this Annam claim Phong Chau and Me Linh is a joke


----------



## Snomannen

yue10 said:


> the evil European are teaching you wrong concept of ethnic my Annam friend, there is both blood component and cultural component, if use your idea the dude Phillip Rosler is the German ethnic but it doesn’t work like that  bloodline matter but only where you are born as same race as your fellow ethnic, look here the girl born and raised in China but is she Han?
> in future new ethnic minority of Guangzhou
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it could not also just be based on cultural alone since I read the Shanghai ren man is like a puzzy or the Yangdi and New Culture did not understand the concept of Confucianism so use your idea they are not Han, also today the Chinese is loving the Western culture like some Wenzhou ren worship in secret meeting for the Jidu, many also have Western name like their movie star and singer so they could not be Han, we could easily see what the Western style economic and consumerism will bring to them in the future, make me laugh when see them speaking about their hatred of whites but worship the Western culture so much



Do you know that Jewish people has been living in China for more than hundreds year.
Jewish people never give up their tradition and religion easily, even though their lives were harsh under the pressure from other ethnics during the past. But Jewish people in China is an exception, they were all localized and have already become part of Han.
I don't see why this African Chinese can't be a Han just because of her bloodline. Defining an ethnicity according to bloodline is what really the western/ modern defination of the concept about ethnics.
Indeed western culture is assimilating everyone nowadays, but using computer and speaking English don't make you an American. It is all the matter of your own sense of identity.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## BeyondHeretic

Why do the Vietnamese people want to learn german en masse? do they see themselves as the potential next Nazi Germany ?


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> just stop tried to weaselling your way out ok, your first reaction said he did not look as Viet then already it meant you did not consider him to be true Viet, what for need to test his DNA? his surname is Viet name, already that is enough to know paternally he is descended from Viet but more from Google his grandfather Viet, his father mix Viet, so according to your 'preserved original paternal blood lineage, he true Viet or not?
> for Jews there is also the Reform school my Annam friend, look here the Tiger Mother
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this Annam claim Phong Chau and Me Linh is a joke



You are low IQ kid.

I said that:

_"when I have been to in Europa, my class mate is Jew, he told me "If your mother is Jew, you are Jew. If your father is Jew, you should be not Jew". So that Obama is Jew.
for the case of François Trinh-Duc, we have to make a DNA testing, the result should tell us who is he, is he Vietnamese or not. Do you understand, kid ? "._

I can tell you directly my idea: Surname does not say nothing when we talking about Bloodline, he could be the product of his mother secret relation or love adventure when the man is far away from family on business.

That why, Jew people are smart.

Phong Châu (kinh đô) – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

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## Viet

BeyondHeretic said:


> Why do the Vietnamese people want to learn german* en masse*? do they see themselves as the potential next Nazi Germany ?


en masse? where do you get this info? Nazi? are you mad? I guess the number of Vietnamese learning German is equal (or lower) to those learning French.

Vietnamese-German University
Home

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Viet

yue10 said:


> the evil European are teaching you wrong concept of ethnic my Annam friend, there is both blood component and cultural component, if use your idea the dude *Phillip Rosler* is the German ethnic but it doesn’t work like that  bloodline matter but only where you are born as same race as your fellow ethnic, look here the girl born and raised in China but is she Han?
> in future new ethnic minority of Guangzhou
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it could not also just be based on cultural alone since I read the Shanghai ren man is like a puzzy or the Yangdi and New Culture did not understand the concept of Confucianism so use your idea they are not Han, also today the Chinese is loving the Western culture like some Wenzhou ren worship in secret meeting for the Jidu, many also have Western name like their movie star and singer so they could not be Han, we could easily see what the Western style economic and consumerism will bring to them in the future, make me laugh when see them speaking about their hatred of whites but worship the Western culture so much
> 
> just stop tried to weaselling your way out ok, your first reaction said he did not look as Viet then already it meant you did not consider him to be true Viet, what for need to test his DNA? his surname is Viet name, already that is enough to know paternally he is descended from Viet but more from Google his grandfather Viet, his father mix Viet, so according to your 'preserved original paternal blood lineage, he true Viet or not?
> for Jews there is also the Reform school my Annam friend, look here the Tiger Mother
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this Annam claim Phong Chau and Me Linh is a joke


Philipp Rösler is ethnic Vietnamese as his parents are Vietnamese. Actually if either mother or father is Vietnamese, their offspring is Vietnamese. So see the basic law of Vietnam, too.

Also, he is German citizen, due to the fact he has a German passport (naturalized).


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## EastSea

BeyondHeretic said:


> Why do the Vietnamese people want to learn german en masse? do they see themselves as the potential next Nazi Germany ?



It's nothing related to Nazism. Its simply, German people are smart, work hard, keep cool and discipline and also to save a money. We can learn from them at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## yue10

KirovAirship said:


> Do you know that Jewish people has been living in China for more than hundreds year.
> Jewish people never give up their tradition and religion easily, even though their lives were harsh under the pressure from other ethnics during the past. But Jewish people in China is an exception, they were all localized and have already become part of Han.
> I don't see why this African Chinese can't be a Han just because of her bloodline. Defining an ethnicity according to bloodline is what really the western/ modern defination of the concept about ethnics.
> Indeed western culture is assimilating everyone nowadays, but using computer and speaking English don't make you an American. It is all the matter of your own sense of identity.


holy shizz your mentality and modern people mentality is down fall of society, it is a shame the social engineer bury the name of Hitler now brainwashed everybody, either that or Chinese is scared of getting balkanised tried to make people think anyone could be considered as Han, it is not according to bloodline but race, as long as the person indistinguishable from other Asian then they could be Han if they believe so from upbringing, if she is Han why you need to say African Chinese, in the future if her children is mix so much they become as Mongoloid then her children and ancestor could be Han but not her
following what the Jew people said it is either they are Jewish or non-Jewish, how could a Jew be Han



EastSea said:


> You are low IQ kid.
> 
> I said that:
> 
> _"when I have been to in Europa, my class mate is Jew, he told me "If your mother is Jew, you are Jew. If your father is Jew, you should be not Jew". So that Obama is Jew.
> for the case of François Trinh-Duc, we have to make a DNA testing, the result should tell us who is he, is he Vietnamese or not. Do you understand, kid ? "._
> 
> I can tell you directly my idea: Surname does not say nothing when we talking about Bloodline, he could be the product of his mother secret relation or love adventure when the man is far away from family on business.
> 
> That why, Jew people are smart.
> 
> Phong Châu (kinh đô) – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


hahaha look this Annam now speaking some nonsense about secret relation, did I said I was high IQ?



> *In 1983, the Reform movement adopted the principal of patrilineal descent.* This is a bit of a misnomer. Reform Judaism considers a child of an interfaith couple to be Jewish if one parent is Jewish and the child is raised as a Jew and receives a Jewish education and celebrates appropriate life cycle events, such as receiving a Hebrew name and becoming bar or bat mitzvah. This also assumes that the child is being raised exclusively as a Jew and not practicing another religion.


 


> MS. CHUA: It was complicated. My children speak Chinese but *they’re raised Jewish.*


 


> Trinh-Duc was noted as one of the first ever rugby players of Vietnamese origin to play for the French national side.[6][7] *His paternal grandfather, Trịnh Đức Nhiên, was born in *Vietnam,[8] migrated to France during the First Indochina War, and settled near Agen in Lot-et-Garonne. Nhien later married an Italian woman, and Trinh-Duc's father, Philippe was born


 


Viet said:


> Philipp Rösler is ethnic Vietnamese as his parents are Vietnamese. Actually if either mother or father is Vietnamese, their offspring is Vietnamese. So see the basic law of Vietnam, too.
> 
> Also, he is German citizen, due to the fact he has a German passport (naturalized).


my Annam friend according to you ethnic is only by culture so why the dude Rosler is considered as Viet, he himself did not even like your race 
the offspring is not true Viet otherwise no need to call them as lai and be discriminated against, will you accept mix black or white as leader of VN


----------



## Wholegrain

Rechoice said:


> You said: "Chinese say "Han" is a cultural umbrella. It does not refer to ethnics, ..."
> 
> No, Han ethnic group is a biggest ethnic group is recognized in China and in the world
> 
> 
> 
> Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Your parents are Vietnamese and your appearance looks 100 % Vietnamese (or bloodline). if you decide to claim that you belong to a Germanic ethnic group native (white man) in BRD. People could laugh or smile on you, even though it is may be permitted in German. White man German people can think that it's not correct and should look down at you.
> 
> Same story here and in other History forum, Northern Han China don't think Southern people are true Han.
> 
> *Northerner claims Cantonese are not Han Chinese - AsianFanatics Forum*



Idiot, on internet forums, northern Vietnamese say southern Vietnamese are unpure Kinh, and have mixed with Cham, Montagnard, and Chinese.

Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Northern Viet, Central Viet, and Southern Viet

And then Southern Vietnamese ***** and claim northern Vietnamese are mixed with Chibese.

Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Vietnamese with Northern mongoloid features

MO4R

Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Northern and Southern Vietnamese

Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Difference between Northern and Southern Viet Girls?

Northern and southern Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linguistic differences between Northern and Southern Vietnamese


----------



## elis

EastSea said:


> That why, Jew people are smart.
> 
> Phong Châu (kinh đô) – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


If they are smart why they practically never invent their weapons: Mirage, F15, F16, sniper rifles


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## Rechoice

Wholegrain said:


> Idiot, on internet forums, northern Vietnamese say southern Vietnamese are unpure Kinh, and have mixed with Cham, Montagnard, and Chinese.
> 
> Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Northern Viet, Central Viet, and Southern Viet
> 
> And then Southern Vietnamese ***** and claim northern Vietnamese are mixed with Chibese.
> 
> Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Vietnamese with Northern mongoloid features
> 
> MO4R
> 
> Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Northern and Southern Vietnamese
> 
> Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Difference between Northern and Southern Viet Girls?
> 
> Northern and southern Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Linguistic differences between Northern and Southern Vietnamese



Who is purer Kinh (Viet) ? 

The debate ís came from politic reason, between RVN and DRVN (quốc gia và Cộng Sản).

The debate of Chinese on Forum is going in different way: North Han Chinese claims that Cantonese is not Han.


----------



## EastSea

yue10 said:


> hahaha look this Annam now speaking some nonsense about secret relation, did I said I was high IQ?



What you commented on my post, it disclosed that you are low IQ.



elis said:


> If they are smart why they practically never invent their weapons: Mirage, F15, F16, sniper rifles



With limited population, living scattered in the world, but how many Nobel prizes are awarded to them ?

List of Jewish Nobel laureates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Invention or production such killing toys, let idiot do. Jew people make politic (with lobby groups) and money.


----------



## Viet

yue10 said:


> my Annam friend according to you ethnic is only by culture so why the dude *Rosler* is considered as Viet, he himself did not even like your race
> the offspring is not true Viet otherwise no need to call them as lai and be discriminated against, will you accept mix black or white as leader of VN


who tells you all such idiotic things? you should know ethnics and cultures are two different things. Go check out the definition and meaning! There are ethnic Viet and naturalized Viet.

Philipp Rösler is a Viet, as he was born in Vietnam, his parents are Vietnamese. There is no doubt about it. He lost his parents (orphan) and was affiliated by a German pair when he was a boy.
Again if either mother or father is Vietnamese, their offspring is Vietnamese. So sees the basic law of Vietnam, too. Why shouldn´t a mixed Viet become a leader of Vietnam? Yes, there are some sentiments and discrimination against Nguoi Lai but that takes times to overcome, I am sure.

He visited Vietnam twice as far as I know, once a private man, the other as politician (he is German economics Minister).


----------



## elis

EastSea said:


> With limited population, living scattered in the world, but how many Nobel prizes are awarded to them ?
> 
> List of Jewish Nobel laureates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Invention or production such killing toys, let idiot do. Jew people make politic (with lobby groups) and money.


It's fake Nobel Prizes, they have never invented the nuclear bomb as they try to make us believe it with the Einstein myth E=MC2

The team who made the Enola gay bomb didn't knew him and he had never attended the explosion of the bomb

Their nuclear bomb was made by the french in 1968. They are strong at politics, medias, finance and so make everybody work for them and also deceiving people

It's strange that Israel produces nothing and are still rich: Asus, Acer, Toshiba, Lg, Nokia... None of the greatest trademarks is made by the jews

Actually they are rich with the public debt that their banks make everybody pay in Europa & USA


----------



## Viet

EastSea said:


> It's nothing related to Nazism. Its simply, German people are smart, work hard, keep cool and discipline and also to save a money. We can learn from them at all.


Yes, Germany is the most powerful countries in Western Europe. No wonder, their work ethic is legendary being comparable to those of Chinese and Vietnamese.


----------



## yue10

EastSea said:


> What you commented on my post, it disclosed that you are low IQ.
> 
> 
> 
> I am low IQ, I did not deny it but I am wondering if you understand the genetic so well could you explain what the graph here mean under the Viet one, what does those % represent? also could you tell me how they could conclusively determine your ethnic by DNA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viet said:
> 
> 
> 
> who tells you all such idiotic things? you should know ethnics and cultures are two different things. Go check out the definition and meaning! There are ethnic Viet and naturalized Viet.
> 
> Philipp Rösler is a Viet, as he was born in Vietnam, his parents are Vietnamese. There is no doubt about it. He lost his parents (orphan) and was affiliated by a German pair when he was a boy.
> Again if either mother or father is Vietnamese, their offspring is Vietnamese. So sees the basic law of Vietnam, too. Why shouldn´t a mixed Viet become a leader of Vietnam? Yes, there are some sentiments and discrimination against Nguoi Lai but that takes times to overcome, I am sure.
> 
> He visited Vietnam twice as far as I know, once a private man, the other as politician (he is German economics Minister).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if the law allow it but if it change do you allow a naturalise white or black as leader of VN?
> he is just the German national my Annam friend, trust me your race could not out logic me
> *SPIEGEL:* Have you ever tried to learn Vietnamese?
> *Rösler:* No, I've never had reason to do so.
> *SPIEGEL:* Did you ever wish to look like a German?
> *Rösler:* No, because I am a German and I have always felt like a German. I went to a Catholic elementary school in the Harburg district of Hamburg, where there were a lot of Spanish and Italian students. After my first day of school, I went to my father and said, "Dad, there are lots of foreigners in my class." He laughed out loud.
> *SPIEGEL ONLINE:* Have you considered taking a side trip from your current schedule?
> *Rösler:* I am visiting Vietnam as the economic minister, as a representative of German business. I'm not on a personal search for traces of my past.
> *SPIEGEL ONLINE:* Do you plan to see the place at some point?
> *Rösler: *No, we don't have plans for that. It simply has no deeper meaning for me.
> 
> my Annam friend if you could help me
> this guy is Korean or Japanese ethnic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Viet

yue10, if I ask my children (they are born in Germany) who they are, they answer with German. That is not unusual, like all the children will reply so who are born overseas. Rösler grew up in Germany, only speaks German and is married with a German women. No wonder that he says he is German. But there is no doubt he is Viet, like my kids. One thing is ethnic, the other is naturalized.


----------



## yue10

Viet said:


> yue10, if I ask my children (they are born in Germany) who they are, they answer with German. That is not unusual, like all the children will reply so who are born overseas. Rösler grew up in Germany, only speaks German and is married with a German women. No wonder that he says he is German. But there is no doubt he is Viet, like my kids. One thing is ethnic, the other is naturalized.


my Annam friend, I was born in Australia, not once in my lifetime I considered myself as Australian, you can not say he is Viet like I did not claim as Viet, he cannot speak Viet, he does not affinity with VN seem more like he dislike it, how you know he born to Viet parent? unlike your funny comrade there is no such thing as Viet blood 'preserved original paternal blood lineage', ethnic is by your race and culture but he did not share your culture so how could he be Viet

the dude here Japanese or Korean?


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## Snomannen

Jewish Chinese have become Han long time ago, so can African Chinese.
Who said that only Asian can join the Han family?


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## EastSea

yue10 said:


> ....



you made wrongly your post, so I sticked on to "reply" and it's emply. It's like your head, empty. You didn't finished any minimum study in School, then you don't understand what does this graph mean, then your question is fully hilarious.

It's disclosed again that you are low IQ kid.

[FEATURE] Pop Culture: Comparing Traditional Male Handsomeness Versus Korean “Flower Boy” | JayneStars.com






I don't like to waste my time for low IQ kid, I will ignore you.
(I read some your post in other forum with the nick "nanyue").


----------



## elis

People who convert to judaism risk to be exterminated for the israelites to take all the glory
Like the khazars converted to judaism who were exterminated by the nazis

Nazism was created in direct relation with the creation of communism by the zionists

Hitler's first obsession was the judeo-bolchevism


----------



## Viet

yue10 said:


> my Annam friend, I was born in Australia, not once in my lifetime I considered myself as Australian, you can not say he is Viet like I did not claim as Viet, he cannot speak Viet, he does not affinity with VN seem more like he dislike it, how you know he born to Viet parent? unlike your funny comrade there is no such thing as Viet blood 'preserved original paternal blood lineage', ethnic is by your race and culture but he did not share your culture so how could he be Viet


I´m tired of your stupidity. A Viet is defined by a common ethnic/blood line/race (mother or father or grandparents has Vietnamese root). He/she can be of different cultures and custom, speaks different languages (even non-vietnamese speaker), or likes/dislikes Vietnam. Clear now?

Tell me who you are? you say you are born in Australia and speak a little Vietnamese, but who are your parents?


yue10 said:


> the dude here Japanese or Korean?


should I know this guy? No, I don´t know him. Is it your picture?


----------



## Viet

weird, while China sets up 'defence zone' around Senkakus provoking Japan and sends the Liaoning battle group with four escorting warships into the South China Sea provoking Vietnam, we celeberate the friendship between the Youths of two countries.

2nd China-Vietnam Youth Gala in Nanning, Nov. 26, 2013. Images taken from Xinhua. Blue dress: Vietnamese, red: Chinese.

,000 young Vietnamese visit China's Guangxi - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Performers perform at 2nd China-Vietnam Youth Gala in Nanning - Xinhua | English.news.cn


----------



## yue10

KirovAirship said:


> Jewish Chinese have become Han long time ago, so can African Chinese.
> Who said that only Asian can join the Han family?


I said that's who but more importantly your Chinese people said although maybe not everyone, if she is Han born and raised in China why anyone need compliment her speaking Chinese

a Jew is either Jewish or not, if they are Han say the are Han, there is no such thing as Jewish Han



> Lou Jing is like any other girl in Shanghai. A college junior, she’s a student of theater, focusing on classical opera songs. After classes, she browses the malls for the latest fashions. At home, her mother babies her.
> And yet on the street, she is still a foreigner. When she opens her mouth and speaks fluent Shanghainese, she’s complemented for her ability to speak her native tongue.


 


EastSea said:


> you made wrongly your post, so I sticked on to "reply" and it's emply. It's like your head, empty. You didn't finished any minimum study in School, then you don't understand what does this graph mean, then your question is fully hilarious.
> It's disclosed again that you are low IQ kid.
> I don't like to waste my time for low IQ kid, I will ignore you.
> (I read some your post in other forum with the nick "nanyue").


 
hahaha I knew this guy is that Negrito dude or at least sound exactly like that guy

which forum? show me, I never use this Nanyue as a username before, just explain the graph and paternal blood lineage or is it you can’t, go, waste your time and prove yourself as smart, some of black people in America carry European haplogroup marker must considered as European according to preserved original paternal blood lineage

I didn’t ask you about that guy so don’t answer it


Viet said:


> I´m tired of your stupidity. A Viet is defined by a common ethnic/blood line/race (mother or father or grandparents has Vietnamese root). He/she can be of different cultures and custom, speaks different languages (even non-vietnamese speaker), or likes/dislikes Vietnam. Clear now?
> 
> Tell me who you are? you say you are born in Australia and speak a little Vietnamese, but who are your parents?
> 
> should I know this guy? No, I don´t know him. Is it your picture?


just tell me that guy ethnic, that's all

I am just Asian live in Australia, I don't have ethnic
that is funny theory my friend, could you show me what is common Viet bloodline what happen if he was adopted by Chinese raised as Chinese and no one knew he was born in VN, how would you know he is Viet
look here is this person Viet?


----------



## Rechoice

*






Yohan Cabaye*

Yohan Cabaye mang trong mình dòng máu Việt khi có bà nội là người Việt Nam. Thông tin trên được chính Cabaye công bố trong buổi trả lời phỏng vấn trang Hourrafoot. Theo anh phát biểu: “J_e pourrais jouer pour le Viêt-Nam, ma grand-mère est vietnamienne! Mais ça fait un peu loin_” (tạm dịch: _Tôi có thể chơi cho đội tuyển Việt Nam, bà tôi là người Việt Nam. Tuy nhiên như thế thì hơi xa._).

*Yohan Cabaye – Wikipedia tiếng Việt*






He can play for Vietnam national Team, but he have to register at related authority Vietnam to get Vietnam's citizenship and Passport. The Law is applicable in Vietnam is permit oversea Vietnamese should have double citizenship as I know.



EastSea said:


> you made wrongly your post, so I sticked on to "reply" and it's emply. It's like your head, empty. You didn't finished any minimum study in School, then you don't understand what does this graph mean, then your question is fully hilarious.
> 
> It's disclosed again that you are low IQ kid.
> 
> [FEATURE] Pop Culture: Comparing Traditional Male Handsomeness Versus Korean “Flower Boy” | JayneStars.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't like to waste my time for low IQ kid, I will ignore you.
> (I read some your post in other forum with the nick "nanyue").


The photo is missing. I try to help you.

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## yue10

look here Annam race when I did not speak to you do not play as smart azz tried to show the real people ok


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> just tell me that guy ethnic, that's all
> 
> I am just Asian live in Australia, I don't have ethnic
> that is funny theory my friend, could you show me what is common Viet bloodline what happen if he was adopted by Chinese raised as Chinese and no one knew he was born in VN, how would you know he is Viet
> look here is this person Viet?


do you have problem with reading? did you read my reply to you previously at all?

Here again, you troller: Vietnamese is defined by a common ethnic/blood line/race. That means if either mother or father (or grandparents) has Vietnamese root, then their offspring is Vietnamese.

He/she can be of different cultures and custom, speaks different languages (even non-vietnamese speaker), or likes/dislikes Vietnam. That doesn´t matter. That incluces half Vietnamese or adopted orphan (in your example Chinese parents). I don´t know the guy you posted, but if his mother or father is Vietnamese, then he is ethnic Vietnamese. The one´s appearance doesn´t matter, either.

Clear now?


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## EastSea

Rechoice said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yohan Cabaye*
> 
> Yohan Cabaye mang trong mình dòng máu Việt khi có bà nội là người Việt Nam. Thông tin trên được chính Cabaye công bố trong buổi trả lời phỏng vấn trang Hourrafoot. Theo anh phát biểu: “J_e pourrais jouer pour le Viêt-Nam, ma grand-mère est vietnamienne! Mais ça fait un peu loin_” (tạm dịch: _Tôi có thể chơi cho đội tuyển Việt Nam, bà tôi là người Việt Nam. Tuy nhiên như thế thì hơi xa._).
> 
> *Yohan Cabaye – Wikipedia tiếng Việt*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He can play for Vietnam national Team, but he have to register at related authority Vietnam to get Vietnam's citizenship and Passport. The Law is applicable in Vietnam is permit oversea Vietnamese should have double citizenship as I know.
> 
> 
> The photo is missing. I try to help you.



You have a good idea. We can do like Phillipine Football Team did in the past (oversea Pynos were called to join National Team).





Philippines team pause for a minute of silence offered to victims of Typhoon Pablo in southern Philippines before the start of their semi-finals match against Singapore at the Asean Football Federation Suzuki Cup 2012 at the Rizal Memorial Stadium in Manila. 

@Rechoice: parle vous la lange France ?


----------



## yue10

since the Annam race like to edit, it doesn't work like that in soccer, he already played competitive matches for France, you can't suddenly switch allegiance ok 


Viet said:


> do you have problem with reading? did you read my reply to you previously at all?
> 
> Here again, you troller: Vietnamese is defined by a common ethnic/blood line/race. That means if either mother or father (or grandparents) has Vietnamese root, then their offspring is Vietnamese.
> 
> He/she can be of different cultures and custom, speaks different languages (even non-vietnamese speaker), or likes/dislikes Vietnam. That doesn´t matter. That incluces half Vietnamese or adopted orphan (in your example Chinese parents). I don´t know the guy you posted, but if his mother or father is Vietnamese, then he is ethnic Vietnamese. The one´s appearance doesn´t matter, either.
> 
> Clear now?


I am low IQ, it is still not clear to me

why they are considered as Viet ethnic and you ignore the other side, what happened if I have grandparent from 4 different ethnic and only one is Viet?


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## Rechoice

EastSea said:


> You have a good idea. We can do like Phillipine Football Team did in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philippines team pause for a minute of silence offered to victims of Typhoon Pablo in southern Philippines before the start of their semi-finals match against Singapore at the Asean Football Federation Suzuki Cup 2012 at the Rizal Memorial Stadium in Manila.
> 
> @Rechoice: parle vous la lange France ?



J'ai etudie le français quand j'étais plus en peti garcon, maintenant et j'ai suis oublie par tout. In the my post above, I copied the translation from Wiki only and forgotten to put in qoute. Sorry for my typing mistaken.

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## Wholegrain

Rechoice said:


> Who is purer Kinh (Viet) ?
> 
> The debate ís came from politic reason, between RVN and DRVN (quốc gia và Cộng Sản).
> 
> The debate of Chinese on Forum is going in different way: North Han Chinese claims that Cantonese is not Han.



Again, no source for the claim on the forum, no proof that the thread starter is even Cantonese or from southern China, instead of a Viet monkey pretending to be Cantonese.


----------



## Rechoice

Wholegrain said:


> Again, no source for the claim on the forum, no proof that the thread starter is even Cantonese or from southern China, instead of a Viet monkey pretending to be Cantonese.




Here is forum, there is forum. Not all Cantonese are braiwashed like you.


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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> Here is forum, there is forum. Not all Cantonese are braiwashed like you.


How about you reference everything from the internet with no real source, no related data, with unidentified author and without related academic research in your report or dissertation and tell your professor to give you a freaking A+.


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## yue10

> Ngo Si Lien, when his turn came, he took the version of Ban Co. *Again word by word he copied the Chinese text.* He added, however, another omission, small in appearance, but loaded with historical meaning. He left out three characters that are translated into ‘gradually he used lawful disguises’. To take the Vietnamese historian’s text, the sentence should be; ‘At that, he eliminated the officials appointed by the Tan…’. Thus, Trieu Da appears to be cruel and no politician at all





> These tales involved far-away peoples and immemorial times concerning the nation, why not use them to make Dai Viet great and Le Thanh tong glorious? A great nation bespeaks a great king, and a great nation is great when its area is immense and its past distant. With all that in mind, Ngo Si Lien compiled his Complete History, *in which fairies and ghosts were as real as human beings.* He was very successful.


LNCQ 




> The_*Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư*_(_Complete Annals of Đại Việt_) is the official historical text of theLê Dynasty, that was originally compiled by the royal historian Ngô Sĩ Liên under the order of the EmperorLê Thánh Tôngand was finished in 1479. *The 15-volume book* covered the period fromHồng Bàng Dynastyto the coronation ofLê Thái Tổ, the first emperor of the Lê Dynasty in 1428.


 


> The _*Đại Việt sử ký*_(literally_Annals of Đại Việt_) is the official historical text of theTrần Dynasty, that was compiled by the royal historianLê Văn Hưuand was finished in 1272. Considered the first comprehensive account of thehistory of Vietnam, *the 30-volume* book covered the period fromTriệu Đà, the first king of theTriệu Dynasty, to Lý Chiêu Hoàngwhich was the empress regnant and the last ruler of theLý Dynasty. Although it was lost during theFourth Chinese dominationin Vietnam,


how did it got conveniently lost and new history somehow edited down to 15 volumes when you are adding information 




> In the official record of the Qing Dynasty, there was one mentioning that the King of Annan asked for the title of "Nan Yue King"（南越国王） from the Central Empire. While the official reply from the Central Empire is that "You are not the people of the Yue people, but the people at the south of the Yue people, so it is unsuitable to grant you the name "Nan Yue". Instead "Yue Nan" will be more suitable". So Yue-Nan(Vietnam) became the official name of the country of Kinh from that day. The Chinese have not always been calling the Kinh people Viet. As the frontier of the Sinitic culture pushed farther south and assimilated Daic populations , the word yue was applied to the territory we now consider Vietnam. NamViet is expressed by the two same ideographs used for 南越（Nan-Yue or Nam-Viet）, but in reverse order. *When translated Vietnam means "SOUTH TO YUE*


."
could someone tell me if this is true
Hunan – Yuenan, Nanjing – Nanyue


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> since the* Annam race *like to edit, it doesn't work like that in soccer, he already played competitive matches for France, you can't suddenly switch allegiance ok


can´t you stop such idiotic remark, you retard!


yue10 said:


> *I am low IQ*, it is still not clear to me
> 
> why they are considered as Viet ethnic and you ignore the other side, what happened if I have grandparent from 4 different ethnic and only one is Viet?


you are not only low on IQ but troll endless. Let me check:

- you say you are Vietnamese, your parents come from Southern Vietnam
- to prove that, in one post you replied to me even in Vietnamese. I believe you.
- you further say you hate Northern Vietnamese, because you came from a superior part of Vietnam, unlike the evil and disgusting Northerner.
- when I asked why don´t you feel ashamed to talk trash on Vietnam, you denied although your posts say otherwise.
- now you ask if your grandparents come from 4 different ethnics and only one is Viet, and who you are?

I recommend you to either shut up or see a doctor to check your mental condition.


----------



## EastSea

elis said:


> It's fake Nobel Prizes, they have never invented the nuclear bomb as they try to make us believe it with the Einstein myth E=MC2
> 
> The team who made the Enola gay bomb didn't knew him and he had never attended the explosion of the bomb
> 
> Their nuclear bomb was made by the french in 1968. They are strong at politics, medias, finance and so make everybody work for them and also deceiving people
> 
> It's strange that Israel produces nothing and are still rich: Asus, Acer, Toshiba, Lg, Nokia... None of the greatest trademarks is made by the jews
> 
> Actually they are rich with the public debt that their banks make everybody pay in Europa & USA



he received the 1921 Nobel Prize in Physics "for his services to theoretical physics, and especially for his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect". The latter was pivotal in establishing quantum theory. Its not direct related to researching or produce to Atom Bomb.

Related to Enole Guy bomb was it:



> He was visiting the United States when Adoft Hitler came to power in 1933 and did not go back to Germany, where he had been a professor at the Berlin Academy of Sciences. He settled in the U.S., becoming an American citizen in 1940. On the eve of World War II, he endorsed a letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt *alerting him to the potential development of "extremely powerful bombs of a new type" ( secretly develop in German by Hitler) and recommending that the U.S. begin similar research. *This eventually led to what would become the Manhattan Project. Einstein supported defending the Allied forces, but largely denounced using the new discovery of nuclear fission as a weapon. Later, with the British philosopher Bertrand Russell, Einstein signed the Russell–Einstein Manifesto, which highlighted the danger of nuclear weapons.



Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He didn't joined to project to produce Atom Bomb.



> *Manhattan Project* was a research and development project that produced the first atomic bombsduring World War II. It was led by the United States with the support of the United Kingdom and Canada. From 1942 to 1946,



Manhattan Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rest of your post, I agree with you.

With limited population, territory Israel can export agriculture product to the world.


----------



## elis

You know that his theory E=MC2 is not verified yet, so it can't have been used to make the nuclear bomb

*Black hole studies to verify Einstein's theory *
/virginia/HTML_files/accessV6N2/92.2.BlackHole.html

And i know Openheimer is the chief of the Manhattan project, but don't judge by the appearances it's very deceiving if we have in mind that they have the nuclear bomb in 1968 way after USA or Russia


----------



## Viet

elis said:


> You know that his theory E=MC2 is not verified yet, so it can't have been used to make the nuclear bomb
> 
> *Black hole studies to verify Einstein's theory *
> /virginia/HTML_files/accessV6N2/92.2.BlackHole.html
> 
> And i know Openheimer is the chief of the Manhattan project, but don't judge by the appearances it's very deceiving if we have in mind that they have the nuclear bomb in 1968 way after USA or Russia


Mass–energy equivalence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Einstein theorem _E_ = _mc_2 is proved. I believe you are against the Jews. why?


----------



## EastSea

elis said:


> You know that his theory E=MC2 is not verified yet, so it can't have been used to make the nuclear bomb
> 
> *Black hole studies to verify Einstein's theory *
> /virginia/HTML_files/accessV6N2/92.2.BlackHole.html
> 
> And i know Openheimer is the chief of the Manhattan project, but don't judge by the appearances it's very deceiving if we have in mind that they have the nuclear bomb in 1968 way after USA or Russia


.

Thís formula _E_ = _mc_2, energy and mass are equivalent and transmutable,when I studied it the University, its a part of theories by Albert Einstein: special relativity and general relativity.

When we talking about *relativity* it mean its not *absolutely. *There is dispute about his theory,Einstein's contemporaries did not all accept his new theories at once.

Theory of relativity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## EastSea

Read my post again I stated that he Albert Einstein didn't joined in to Manhattan project. So no one seen him.


----------



## elis

Viet said:


> Mass–energy equivalence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Einstein theorem _E_ = _mc_2 is proved. I believe you are against the Jews. why?


I think it's better that you discover them by yourselves. I really wish that the israelis invest in Vietnam.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

The original inhabitants in Southeast China from 5000-4500BC.


----------



## yue10

Viet said:


> can´t you stop such idiotic remark, you retard!
> you are not only low on IQ but troll endless. Let me check:
> - you say you are Vietnamese, your parents come from Southern Vietnam
> - to prove that, in one post you replied to me even in Vietnamese. I believe you.
> - you further say you hate Northern Vietnamese, because you came from a superior part of Vietnam, unlike the evil and disgusting Northerner.
> - when I asked why don´t you feel ashamed to talk trash on Vietnam, you denied although your posts say otherwise.
> - now you ask if your grandparents come from 4 different ethnics and only one is Viet, and who you are?
> I recommend you to either shut up or see a doctor to check your mental condition.


you are very angry person my Annam friend, I hope it could change because not everyone on internet have superior mentality like me ok? I trash your race because your mentality is all wrong, I said my PARENTS are Vietnamese not me, I do not claim ethnic



EastSea said:


> you made wrongly your post, so I sticked on to "reply" and it's emply. It's like your head, empty. You didn't finished any minimum study in School, then you don't understand what does this graph mean, then your question is fully hilarious.
> 
> It's disclosed again that you are low IQ kid.
> 
> I don't like to waste my time for low IQ kid, I will ignore you.
> (I read some your post in other forum with the nick "nanyue").


look at this funny guy edit his post, I would have left it but you play dirty tactic in economic thread so now I show how funny you really are, I ask you graph to see if you know what you are speaking about because the way you tried to explain show your dimwitness



> Your bloodline in human chromosomes ís differed from Bloodline human in chromosomes of Han people in North China, same as it's differed from Bloodline òf Kinh Viet.
> 
> We (Mon-Khmer) Kinh don't have nothing to do with (Tai-Katay) native Cantonese and (Tai/Katay) native Cantonese don't have nothing to do with (Sino-Tibetan) Han people.


 


> Southern Vietnamese Kinh people is shared same language and bloodline with North Kinh Vietnamese. We are in one ethnic group.


funny guy with no basic common sense thinks all Kinhs share a same bloodline, no Kinh in human history has sexed or been sexed up by a different ethnic, they magically got 80 million Kinh from a single bloodline brother must have sexed up sister or something, what is a Kinh bloodline anyway? what test can show an exclusive bloodline belong to this race? I give you hint if they do test it could be guaranteed that Northern Kinh it will ‘differed from Bloodline human in chromosomes’ of Southern Kinh so that by this funny idea it means Southerner are no Kinh


> To me and other Viet, we think simple "We do not claim whom does not want to associate with us, if they want to be us then they are us, we do not racist to where they came from and will make sure they do not face racism"
> let me ask you is the person "Hua" here is Vietnamese or Chinese (sorry to bring you in this topic Hua)? Who has the right to claim his parents relate to, you or him?
> 
> It is not you who to decide, it is him.


the best one, for Viet they can be Viet but for Cantonese go on and on about Nanyue ethnic this true Han that, they themself want to associate as Han ethnic but for this amazing IQ he said no! somehow it got turned into they are brainwash, this IQ cannot understand such a simple concept that the Cantonese are the result of the Han that came down and assimilated Yue, the Yue who did not like assimilation kept their identity which are the Daic ethnic minority populations, Zhuang, Dong, Shui, Bouyei whatever else, it is such a simple thing to understand but every time Cantonese is not same blood, language is not mutually intelligible, it got loan word argh argh


> In China, Madarin ís language òf Han People, Cantonese is language of Yue people.


ask question shi bu shi and hai m hai is enough to know they are related languages, it is too much weird for different language to borrow this x negative x

funny Annam race think Cantonese is completely different language must be professor thought it is ‘Tai-Katay’ family but actually the Southern languages are the one that more closely resemble Old and Middle Chinese, that’s why Vietnamese loans sound closer to the Southern languages because they took the loans from that time period, so if anything Southern languages are true representative of Han language
nhat, nhi, tam……yat, yi, sam…..yi, er, san
trung quoc, jong gwok, zhong guo
I just leave example of high IQ


> 1. OUR VIETNAMESE PROUD TO BE BAI YUE PEOPLE, SO WE ARE NOT HAN CHINESE
> 2. VIETNAMESE PROUD TO INHERIT CIVILIZATION OF BAI YUE PEOPLE- GREATEST CIVILIZATION IN ASIA WHICH INSPIRED TO ARCHITECTURE, PHILOSOPHY, AGRICULTURE,...OF EAST ASIA IN GENERAL AND CHINA IN PARTICULAR
> 3. BAI YUE POPULATION >= HAN CHINESE 2000 YEARS AGO.
> SO THE THEORY OF 1000 YEARS OCCUPATION OF HAN CHINESE IS SIMPLY ASSIMILATION OF PART OF BAI YUE TO HAN CHINESE, SOME MIX WITH HAN CHINESE, AND SOME FORGOT THEIR BAI YUE ROOT.
> THE REST CONTINUE FIGHT TO GAIN INDEPENDENCE AND FOUND THE OWN KINGDOM FOR YUE PEOPLE. IT'S VIETNAMESE ! ( YUE NAN, YUE PEOPLE IN SOUTH)
> WE HAVE VERY LITTLE BLOOD OF HAN CHINESE, BECAUSE WE HAVE BIG EYES AS BAI YUE ANCESTOR, NOT SMALL EYES AS HAN CHINESE (HUA XIA)


 
funny funny Annam got humiliated wherever he went
dau oc te qua te khong co kha nang de hieu gi ve van de don gian vay ma cung nghi minh la biet het, toi chi can nhin vo mot chuc la biet cai gi la dung cai gi la sai cai gi la that cai gi la chuyen khong co, cha nay suoc cuoc doi dam dau vo sach ma khong co biet con cac gi het


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## EastSea

self deleted.


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## Viet

elis said:


> I think it's better that you discover them by yourselves. I really wish that the israelis invest in Vietnam.


I had once a Jew as coworker. He was a nice guy. He strickly followed his belief and instead of taking foods from the company cantine, he cooked foods at home and brought into the company. I can tell you, his foods smelt terrible.

Everybody complained.


----------



## elis

Viet said:


> I had once a Jew as coworker. He was a nice guy. He strickly followed his belief and instead of taking foods from the company cantine, he cooked foods at home and brought into the company. I can tell you, his foods smelt terrible.
> 
> Everybody complained.


Nice story, thanks



yue10 said:


> you are very angry person my Annam friend, I hope it could change because not everyone on internet have superior mentality like me ok? I trash your race because your mentality is all wrong, I said my PARENTS are Vietnamese not me, I do not claim ethnic


I don't know where you learn multiculturalism but you're an hardcore one
I think that there "race" and culture are both important


----------



## Rechoice

elis said:


> I think it's better that you discover them by yourselves. I really wish that the israelis invest in Vietnam.



*IWI To Produce Weapons In Vietnam.*

Nguoiduatin.vn reports that Israeli Weapons Industry is looking to open a factory in Vietnam to produce weapons for the Far East market. They could invest up to $100 million int he plant. The Vietnamese military have adopted a wide range of Israeli small arms including the Tavor, Negev LMG, Galil SAR rifle and Galil Sniper rifle.













IWI Tavor, IWI Negev and MATADOR (Anti-Tank / Breaching Rocket)

IWI To Produce Weapons In Vietnam - The Firearm Blog

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## elis

Very good

Don't forget that Colombia is also supported by Israel and have a lot of Galil, they still have a war against the narcos because of the strange ties of Zionist USA with the narcos

I wait to see Vietnam becoming one more battle horse for the zionists wars


----------



## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The original inhabitants in Southeast China from 5000-4500BC.



Peking Man.

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## Viet

let change the topic, otherwise things slowly get too ugly. On the recent WSJ "House of the Day", it is advertised for massive 
$800,000, a modern, three-story villa in the Montgomerie Links golf resort on the central coast of Vietnam. That house is nice, but I wonder how big is the property market for the rich?

Asia House of the Day: Leisure Living in Vietnam—Photos - WSJ.com

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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> Who is purer Kinh (Viet) ?
> 
> The debate ís came from politic reason, between RVN and DRVN (quốc gia và Cộng Sản).
> 
> The debate of Chinese on Forum is going in different way: North Han Chinese claims that Cantonese is not Han.



Cantonese are heavily mixed between North Chinese and the local tribes.

Yingluck Shinawatra is a prime example, and now she looks very South Chinese with some Southeast Asian tendency.







But when she was young, she looked very Central-North Chinese, exactly like a Mainland Chinese woman. This is the trait of the mixed people, who can have different appearance during their youth and aged days.

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## halupridol

any chinese from yunnan region......???
can u plz give some info on *mong mao*???


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## yue10

holy fudge, could mod edit my above posting, I said too much sometimes but just one last thing

*A language is a dialect with an army and navy*






*Saigon’s Chinese–going, going, gone*



> When the Vietnam War finally ended in 1975, roughly 4 percent of Vietnam’s population was of Chinese extraction. Perhaps 1.5 million were citizens of the defeated southern regime, of whom more than half lived in Cholon, Saigon’s Chinese quarter. Only around 300,000 lived in the victorious northern half of the country.
> Vietnam's Chinese community had prospered over the years. Merchants of Chinese origin monopolized wholesale trade in the south and dominated manufacturing and retail trade. The descendants of refugees from the collapsing Ming dynasty, who settled in Vietnam in the mid-17th century, were substantially assimilated. Yet the majority, offspring of much more recent migrants, maintained their regional Chinese cultures. As in many other parts of Southeast Asia, their outsider status and economic success created resentment among locals.
> 
> Greed, ideology and paranoia made the largely bourgeois Chinese community a natural target for the victorious northerners. Within a year of Saigon's fall, *the Communists singled out Chinese immigrants* as a principal obstacle to Vietnam's construction of a Soviet-socialist economy. As Hanoi's relations with Beijing deteriorated, it began to regard Vietnam's Chinese as a potential fifth column. Although there was little to no evidence of their guilt in either respect, *the Chinese community's relative wealth was an irresistible target for the cash-strapped victors in the civil war. *
> 
> Late in 1976, the regime closed all Chinese language schools and newspapers. In 1978, private enterprise in the south was nationalized. Members of the Chinese community who could afford to flee the tightening noose did so, abetted by officials who *extorted their dollars, gold and jewels*. First a trickle, then a flood of "boat people" washed up on the beaches of neighboring countries. Up to 1982, two-thirds of the half-million refugees who survived storms and pirate attacks were Chinese.
> 
> The anti-Chinese contagion spread to the north. Exasperated by Beijing's support of the stridently anti-Vietnamese Pol Pot regime in Cambodia and perhaps anticipating an attack by China's People's Liberation Army,* Hanoi pushed Chinese families across the border into Guangxi.* Others left voluntarily. Ironically, many had fought for the Viet Minh against the French and for the Hanoi government against the Americans.
> 
> By the 1989 census, the number of Chinese in Vietnam had halved to 900,000; today they make up less than 1 percent of the population. A handful of Chinese temples and clan houses in Cholon and the restored 17th century trading port of Hoi An now welcome tourists. And since 2007, the Ho Chi Minh City government has sponsored an annual Chinese Cultural Festival.
> 
> But these are exceptions: for the most part, Chinese cultural life has gone indoors. Southern Vietnam's gold dealers and wholesale traders are still overwhelmingly of Chinese extraction, but they have assimilated. Their children are rarely literate in Mandarin; often they do not speak their ancestors' dialect. Many have married out of minority status, taking on their spouse's Vietnamese ethnicity.
> 
> In important respects, Vietnam's Chinese have become indistinguishable from their neighbors—so successfully that, although crowds may form to protest against Chinese behavior in the South China Sea, no one thinks of taking revenge on the Chinese merchant family next door.


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## Viet

those are unfortunate events of the past. Hopefully they will never repeat.






Is this China? No, it is Hue, central Vietnam, inside the emperor's palace.











Chinese dance group before Binh Tay Market, Saigon

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## elis

EastSea said:


> Peking Man.


Sun Wukong


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## Viet

Chinese premier Li arrives in Hanoi for Vietnam visit, Hanoi, Oct. 13, 2013.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Cantonese are heavily mixed between North Chinese and the local tribes.
> 
> Yingluck Shinawatra is a prime example, and now she looks very South Chinese with some Southeast Asian tendency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But when she was young, she looked very Central-North Chinese, exactly like a Mainland Chinese woman. This is the trait of the mixed people, who can have different appearance during their youth and aged days.





> Thaksin's great-grandfather, Seng Sae Khu, was an immigrant from Meizhou, Guangdong, China, who arrived in Siam in the 1860s and settled in Chiang Mai in 1908.
> 
> Thaksin married Potjaman Damapong in 1980. They have one son, Panthongtae and two daughters, Pintongtha and Peathongtarn. They divorced in 2008.[6] Thaksin's youngest sister, Yingluck Shinawatra, entered politics in 2011 at her brother's request as leader of the pro-Thaksin Pheu Thai Party and was elected prime minister on 3 July 2011.



Thaksin Shinawatra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Same story for her politic rival, *Abhisit Vejjajiva, he is Chinese descendant.
*



> Abhisit's ancestors surnamed Yuan (袁), who moved from Vietnam to Thailand. The family name Vejjajiva was granted by King Rama VI to Abhisit's great-grandfather Dr. Long (หลง), together with Long's father Nai Jinsang (นายจิ๊นแสง), grandfather Nai Peng (นายเป๋ง) and great-grandfather Nai Go (นายก่อ)



Abhisit Vejjajiva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



elis said:


> Sun Wukong





> Based on DNA analyses of 100,000 samples gathered from around the world, a number of human families evolved in East Africa some 150,000 years ago, said Li Hui, a member of Jins team.
> 
> *About 100,000 years ago, some of those humans began to leave Africa, with some people moving to China via South and Southeast Asia,* Li said.
> 
> According to the newspaper article, it has been proven that the 65 branches of the Chinese race share similar DNA mutations with the peoples of East and Southeast Asia.



UNTOLD BLACK HISTORY: Chinese descendants of Africa: DNA test Professor Jin Li


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## ChineseTiger1986

At least most Cantonese during their youth can look very North Chinese, until they got aged, their appearance starts to become more Southeast Asian.

But not many Viets during their youth can look North Chinese.


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> At least most Cantonese during their youth can look very North Chinese, until they got aged, their appearance starts to become more Southeast Asian.
> 
> But not many Viets during their youth can look North Chinese.



Viet/Kinh and North Chinese/Han looks different, because they are people in two different ethnic group.

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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> holy fudge, could mod edit my above posting, I said too much sometimes but just one last thing
> 
> *A language is a dialect with an army and navy*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Saigon’s Chinese–going, going, gone*


 
what is problem with you ? are you Hua people ?

Chinese are foreigners, they came to Vietnam in the past and they can go out if they want.

Today, Hua people are living in Australia, Canada or USA ... Its better for them.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> Viet/Kinh and North Chinese/Han looks different, because they are people in two different ethnic group.



Because Cantonese are closer to North Chinese than to Viet/Kinh.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Because Cantonese are closer to North Chinese than to Viet/Kinh.



Cantonese (native) is not looks like Northerner Han. North Hans are taller and same as height of European.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Cantonese (native) is not looks like Northerner Han. North Hans are taller and same as height of European.



The modern Cantonese are mixed, they share many common ancestry with the North Han as well.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The modern Cantonese are mixed, they share many common ancestry with the North Han as well.


I read, according to some latest scientific findings, the Viets most probably came from the Sea and mixed with locals when they settled down in the Red river delta. Some Viet people look like those from China, Philippines or Thailand.

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## yue10

Rechoice said:


> what is problem with you ? are you Hua people ?
> *Chinese are foreigners, they came to Vietnam in the past* and they can go out if they want.
> Today, Hua people are living in Australia, Canada or USA ... Its better for them.


 


> Based upon degree of diversity, linguistic evidence therefore places the homeland of Proto Vietic in the interior regions of what is now Borikhamxay and Khammouane Provinces, with some overflow to the opposite side of the Sai Phou Louang (Annamite) chain, to the north in Nghe An and to the east in Quang Binh, that is, far south of the H6ng plain.
> Furthermore, it is clear from the ethnolinguistic evidence summarized above that the modem *Vietnamese were recent arrivals in the Delta,* and that the movement of Viet-Meuang peoples generally has been from south to north, not the reverse as most histories would have us believe.
> *Thus the 'Vietnamese,' who at this point in time in Giao-chi we must still regard as ethnically Tai,* are described as belonging to the northern empire while descending from a southern culture, a characterization that is indeed well-suited to both the Tais in the north of NamViet as well as to the ethnic Vietnamese in the south.
> Many questions remain unanswered. *The precise dates when the ethnic Vietnamese actually replaced the Tai in the Delta **are uncertain, but this must have occurred sometime between the seventh and the ninth centuries.*


 

everyone take a look at their racism
[video]



[/video]


> *Definitions*
> *adjective *
> 
> not grateful or thankful
> unrewarding or unpleasant; thankless
> (of land) failing to increase fertility in response to cultivation
> *Translations for 'ungrateful'*
> 
> British English: ungrateful
> 
> 
> 
> If you describe someone as _ungrateful_, you are criticizing them for not showing thanks or for being cruel to someone who has helped them.I thought she was rather ungrateful.ʌnˈɡreɪtfʊlADJECTIVE


 


> The anti-Chinese contagion spread to the north. Exasperated by Beijing's support of the stridently anti-Vietnamese Pol Pot regime in Cambodia and perhaps anticipating an attack by China's People's Liberation Army,* Hanoi pushed Chinese families across the border into Guangxi.* Others left voluntarily. *Ironically, many had fought for the Viet Minh against the French and for the Hanoi government against the Americans.*


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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> everyone take a look at their racism
> [video]
> 
> 
> 
> [/video]



You are lơw educated boy and troll and troll nonsense with such hilarious trashes.

Don't forget that our ancient Capital was in Cổ Loa citadel of Thục Dynasty *(257 – 207 BC).* "Cổ Loa" ís ancient Vietnamese (Kinh) word "Kẻ Loa".

Today in Vietnam is available many villages or locations with the name beginning with word "Cổ...", like "Cổ Đô", "Cổ Lễ" ...

Its better when you state that Vietnamese (King people) came to Red river delta from East Africa around 600,000 years.

History of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We don't care what Hua "boat people" think about us. In the past they escaped from famine, viotions, riots, civil war ... in China and came to Vietnam. We have been taken care about them like our brothers, let them had chance to live in Vietnam, have our rice to eat. It was extended through many generation up to now.

Its reported that more than 800,000 Hua people are still living in Vietnam.

When you ran out from Vietnam, you paid for besil, boat, foods... to human traffickers, etc to go to West, then you changed your face, you insulted Vietnamese in Western propaganda to have mercy of white men.

Who is ungrateful here ? such stupid Hua "boat people".

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## elis

EastSea said:


> UNTOLD BLACK HISTORY: Chinese descendants of Africa: DNA test Professor Jin Li


We're supposed to be all descendants of africans. I don't believe that an african and an asian have so much in common physically and mentally

Even i really enjoy the diversity


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## ChineseTiger1986

These three can all pass as Chinese from anywhere.






2-4 from the left and 2-3 from the right can be passed as the Chinese.


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> everyone take a look at their racism


what a retard! you cited randomly postings of some unknown authors to counter historial facts?


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> These three can all pass as Chinese from anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2-4 from the left and 2-3 from the right can be passed as the Chinese.


how about this (China-Vietnam Youth Gala, held in Nanning City. 25th Nov 2013)?
red: Chinese, blue: Vietnamese

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## ChineseTiger1986

The two Chinese girls sit at the front belong to the most southern phenotype for Chinese, since they are from the Zhuang Autonomous Region of Guangxi, they might have a lot of more mixture with Zhuang.


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## DaiViet

Cantonese are native local mixed with Han Chinese. Look at the map of Qin empire, at its peak of empire large area of South China isn't covered by Qin. The Han Chinese dont originate from Southern China. Therefore the Local there must be conquered and enslaved later on by the Han. Similar to how Manchu conquered and enslaved Han, and then later became what it is now China. Does not make genius to figure out. Dont you notice Cantonese is not = Mandarin.






Let me teach you Vietnamese here, according to Vietnamese ancients instruct their descendants.

1. do not trust the Chinese
2. do not trust the Chinese
3. do not trust the Chinese

You think I hate the Chinese that much. No I don't. You can be friend with them as two normal people when come to politic and diplomacy, they are no friends. It was the Vietnamese ancestors wrote in their history. Dont believe me, go read the Vietnamese history.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Han is still the rightful owner of South China, you Viet ultranationalists should stop dreaming about our Chinese territory.


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## EastSea

40 % Cantonese in Canton and 37 % Wu Yue, Zhe Jiang- Shanghai are native people, no Han.


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## ChineseTiger1986

I am Han, Cantonese are Han, you are not Han.


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## Snomannen

DaiViet said:


> Cantonese are native local mixed with Han Chinese. Look at the map of Qin empire, at its peak of empire large area of South China isn't covered by Qin. The Han Chinese dont originate from Southern China. Therefore the Local there must be conquered and enslaved later on by the Han. Similar to how Manchu conquered and enslaved Han, and then later became what it is now China. Does not make genius to figure out. Dont you notice Cantonese is not = Mandarin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me teach you Vietnamese here, according to Vietnamese ancients instruct their descendants.
> 
> 1. do not trust the Chinese
> 2. do not trust the Chinese
> 3. do not trust the Chinese
> 
> You think I hate the Chinese that much. No I don't. You can be friend with them as two normal people when come to politic and diplomacy, they are no friends. It was the Vietnamese ancestors wrote in their history. Dont believe me, go read the Vietnamese history.



1. What if I told you there was no such people called "Han" in Qin Dynasty.
2. The first ancestor of Han people was Huaxia and modern Han is an ethnic mixed with countless ancient ethnics. The _specific _place of Han's origin is not existed.
3. Bad example. Cantonese speaks Han Chinese which is the same as Northern Han who speaks Mandarin, yet Manchurian former mother language Manchurian is not even part of Sino-Tibetan language.
4. Baekje and Silla were both ancient countries of Korea, they shared different cultures and languages. Their descendants are all Korean.
5. Everyone is enslaved by their rulers (Emperors/ Kings) in the past no matter who they are.
6. Cantonese is even closer to ancient Han Chinese than Mandarin is.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I am Han, Cantonese are Han, you are not Han.



That EatShxt is not even a human being, he is just a shameless bug always making nonsense and trying to incite Chinese people.


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## Soryu

I like this picture and expression of everyone in the pic ...  


Viet said:


> Chinese premier Li arrives in Hanoi for Vietnam visit, Hanoi, Oct. 13, 2013.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Han is still the rightful owner of South China, you *Viet ultranationalists *should stop dreaming about our Chinese territory.


Nobody in VN claims South China! who does so, is mad. However, it is legitimate to debate on history, don´t you think so?


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## yue10

Rechoice said:


> You are lơw educated boy and troll and troll nonsense with such hilarious trashes.
> Don't forget that *our ancient Capital* was in Cổ Loa citadel of Thục Dynasty *(257 – 207 BC).* "Cổ Loa" ís ancient Vietnamese (Kinh) word "Kẻ Loa".
> Today in Vietnam is available many villages or locations with the name beginning with word "Cổ...", like "Cổ Đô", "Cổ Lễ" ...
> Its better when you state that Vietnamese (King people) came to Red river delta from East Africa around 600,000 years.
> History of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


it seemed I must highlight and make big for you to read because I already posted this quote before


> In this study, Xu Songshi points out that there were various place names in southern China and extending into northern Vietnam which came from Zhuang, a Tai language. *For instance, he states that there were many place names which began with the character “gu” (古), or “cổ” in Vietnamese, a term which he argues came from Zhuang and has been interpreted in many ways, from meaning “I,” to a classifier, to meaning a mountain with no vegetation on it.* He also mentions that such place names could be found in the past from Anhui Province, in what is today central China, to Guangxi Province in the southwest, an area which he argues Tai speakers historically inhabited.9 Xu Songshi also cites a work which was published in 1877, Xu Yanxu’s _Brief Compilation on Vietnam_, which reportedly contains a map of the districts in Vietnam when it was under Chinese control in the early 15th century.10 This map apparently lists place names in what is today northern Vietnam such as the following: Cổ Bàng (古榜), Cổ Lão (古老), Cổ Lễ (古禮), Cổ Dũng (古勇), Cổ Long (古龍), Cổ Phí (古費), Cổ Đằng (古藤), Cổ Hồng (古宏), Cổ Lôi (古雷), Cổ Bình (古平), Cổ Đặng (古鄧), Cổ Xã (古社), and Cổ Nông (古農). Additionally, Xu Songshi states that characters such as tư/si (思), đô/du (都), đa/duo (多), na/na (那), bố/bu (布), and điều/diao (調) also represent Zhuang words, and that in Vietnam during the 15th century there were also place names with these characters, such as the following: Na Ngạn (那岸), Lục Na (陸那), Đa Cẩm (多錦), Đa Dực (多翌), Tư Dung (思容), Điều An (調安), and Bố Chân (布真).11 Unfortunately, Xu Songshi did not state what these other terms might have meant in Zhuang, although anyone familiar with a Tai language can tell that “_na_/_na_” is the term for a fi eld. While Xu Songshi therefore indicated that there was historically a strong Tai presence in the Red River Delta, he did not provide a clear historical explanation for how this happened.


 



> Qua những tư liệu thư lịch và tư liệu truyền thuyết trên, chúng ta có thể khẳng định: Thục Phán không thể là con Vua nước Ba Thục ở Tứ Xuyên (Trung Quốc). *Mà có thể khẳng định ông là người Tày cổ,* thủ lĩnh liên minh Bộ lạc Tây Âu mà Trung tâm là Cao Bằng. Điều đó còn được minh chứng rõ hơn là trong truyền thuyết cổ "Cẩu chủa cheng Vùa" có chứa đựng nhiều yếu tố hợp lý, chứa đựng những hạt nhân lịch sử của nó, vì vậy cần phải khai thác và nghiên cứu kỹ hơn, sâu hơn. Đến nay những tập tục, truyền thuyết dân gian tại Cổ loa và cùng xung quanh cũng phù hợp với cách lý giải về nguồn gốc Thục Phán - *An Dương Vương là người Tày cổ giống như truyền thuyết "Chín chúa tranh Vua". *"Trong tâm thức dân gian vùng Cổ Loa luôn ghi nhớ nguồn gốc "người thượng du" một tù trưởng miền núi" của Vua Thục. Thậm chí truyền thuyết cần nó rõ quê gốc của Thục Phán - An Dương Vương là Cao Bằng" 2.
> Như vậy là từ thành Bản Phủ - Thục Phán đã tổ chức cuộc thi và giành thắng lợi trước các chúa. Nay các địa danh, các câu truyện gắn liền với cuộc thi vẫn còn in sâu đậm trong ký ức nhân dân. Đồng thời trong tâm thức dân gian vẫn còn nhiều tập tục - Có thể gọi là một loại hình văn hoá tộc người lưu lại và liên quan đến Thục Phán - An Dương Vương và thành Cổ Loa. Đó là các biểu tượng Rùa vàng, Gà trắng, trong đó gà trắng phá hoại việc xây thành Cổ Loa, Rùa vàng giúp xây thành. Gà trắng và Rùa vàng có thể gọi là những linh vật có ý nghĩa biểu tượng trong dân tộc Tày. Hiện nay nhân dân vẫn coi Rùa vàng là thần rùa giúp sức, phù trợ nhân dân làm những việc tốt đẹp, ân nghĩa, chống lại ma quỷ, kẻ thù...Trong dân tộc Tày, con Rùa được nhân dân quý trọng tôn thờ. Con gà thì lại khác, biểu tượng gà là "vật kí thác linh hồn", gà gắn liền với bóng đêm và sự chết tróc; hiện nay trong đồng bào Tày vẫn coi "Ma gà" (Phi Cáy) là hiện tượng đáng sợ, vì nó gây tai hoạ cho con người khi bị "Ma gà" nhập, hiện nay người Tày vẫn coi gà trắng là "Cáy khoăn" tức là gà gọi hồn khi làm lễ "Dòn lầu" cho trẻ em, thường sách theo con gà và thường dùng gà trắng để phục vụ trong lễ này1 như vậy là gà trắng đã thành tinh nó bị coi là con vật mang tai hoạ đến con người. Vì vậy đồng bào Tày kiêng nuôi gà trắng, kiêng thịt gà trắng trong những dịp lễ vui mừng... từ những quan niệm đó đến những phong tục, tập quán của người Tày về Rùa vàng và Gà trắng, có thể thấy rõ "Sự tương đồng với những chi tiết trong truyền thuyết An Dương Vương xây thành Cổ Loa" những nét tương đồng ấy phải chăng có cội nguồn từ nguồn gốc Tày cổ của Thục phán - An Dương Vương. Vì nhà vua là Tày cổ nên những quan niệm, phong tục cổ của người Tày đã được đưa đến vùng đất Cổ Loa"2.


 


> We don't care what Hua "boat people" think about us. In the past they escaped from famine, viotions, riots, civil war ... in China and came to Vietnam. *We have been taken care about them like our brothers,* let them had chance to live in Vietnam, have our rice to eat. It was extended through many generation up to now.
> Its reported that more than 800,000 Hua people are still living in Vietnam.
> When you ran out from Vietnam, you paid for besil, boat, foods... to human traffickers, etc to go to West, then you changed your face, you insulted Vietnamese in Western propaganda to have mercy of white men.
> Who is ungrateful here ? such stupid Hua "boat people".





> More than 20,000 inhabitants were killed in revenge for their support of the Nguyen. The massacre, which also included 10,000 Chinese from Cho Lon. was thought by some to he aimed at destroying the Chinese monopoly on commerce This was one of the objectives of the Qui Nhon merchants who had been the main backers of the Tãy Son rebels from the beginning. Tây Son forces pillaged and burned shops and vessels belonging to Chinese merchants and proceeded to kill them systematically. They then threw the corpses into the Saigon River, and for one month, no one dared to eat shrimp or to drink water taken from the river. All the mercantile goods—muslin. silk. tea. perfumes. paper—were removed from Chinese homes and thrown out into the streets, and no one dared to pick them up.”


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> Nobody in VN claims South China! who does so, is mad. However, it is legitimate to debate on history, don´t you think so?



Well some Korean does make such claim:











韩国宣称拥有中国东北部分领土，要上告国际法庭。_中华论坛_中华网论坛--网友影响中国--全国最大社区媒体


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## yue10

Viet said:


> Nobody in VN claims South China! who does so, is mad. However, it is legitimate to debate on history, don´t you think so?


 









massive joke

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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> it seemed I must highlight and make big for you to read because I already posted this quote before



The ancient vietnamese/kinh word " *kẻ *" written with Han Ji "*(古)". *This word mean: "*People" *in Viet/kinh language.

Today we say:
*Người hay kẻ dở* , it mean *" its good people. there is bad people"
Kẻ Chợ* mean: "people do business in market" or *businessman. *Today, with rumors, Hanoi people called as "Kẻ Chợ", it mean Hanoian are mostly "selfish people".

In the past, Vietnamese/Kinh people were living in separate villages where in close small village community. Each people in one village were called by others by the mane of village. My home town in Viettri city in northern Hanoi 80 km, was called in the past as *Kẻ Sửi *, people of village Sửi. Late on it cecame the mane of village *Kẻ Sủi, *or* Cổ Sủ *written in Han Ji*. *Same as * Cổ Đô, *the name of homevillage of my friend, is in Sơn Tây province (today is annexed to Hanoi).

In fact all the manes*: 

Cổ Bàng (古榜), Cổ Lão (古老), Cổ Lễ (古禮), Cổ Dũng (古勇), Cổ Long (古龍), Cổ Phí (古費), Cổ Đằng (古藤), Cổ Hồng (古宏), Cổ Lôi (古雷), Cổ Bình (古平), Cổ Đặng (古鄧), Cổ Xã (古社), and Cổ Nông (古農)...
*
There were the names of villages in Viet/kinh language, not related to Zhuang language.

*



An Dương Vương là người Tày cổ giống như truyền thuyết "Chín chúa tranh Vua".

Click to expand...

*
if an* An Dương Vương là người Tày cổ, *why he did not move the Capital of Dynasty in to Guangxi, there is his home land ?

He was defeated by Zhao Tuo, an Duong Vuong was dead in his home town in Nghe An Province.











Đền Cuông | Diễn Châu | Nghệ An | Việt nam




> *More than 20,000 inhabitants were killed in revenge for their support of the Nguyen. The massacre, which also included 10,000 Chinese from Cho Lon.* was thought by some to he aimed at destroying the Chinese monopoly on commerce This was one of the objectives of the Qui Nhon merchants who had been the main backers of the Tãy Son rebels from the beginning. Tây Son forces pillaged and burned shops and vessels belonging to Chinese merchants and proceeded to kill them systematically. They then threw the corpses into the Saigon River, and for one month, no one dared to eat shrimp or to drink water taken from the river. All the mercantile goods—muslin. silk. tea. perfumes. paper—were removed from Chinese homes and thrown out into the streets, and no one dared to pick them up.”



There was civil war between Nguyen Warlord and Tay Son rebels. Not only Hua people were killed, huge amount of Vietnamese (who were by side with Nguyen Warlord) were victims.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Well some Korean does make such claim:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 韩国宣称拥有中国东北部分领土，要上告国际法庭。_中华论坛_中华网论坛--网友影响中国--全国最大社区媒体


and this is the German Empire from 1919–1937. They lost more than 1/3 of their territories including overseas occupations after the defeats of two world wars. Some Germans still dream of returning of old land. Too late. You know surely the song of Abba "The winner takes it all".


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## yue10

Rechoice said:


> The ancient vietnamese/kinh word " *kẻ *" written with Han Ji "*(古)". *This word mean: "*People" *in Viet/kinh language.
> 
> Today we say:
> *Người hay kẻ dở* , it mean *" its good people. there is bad people"
> Kẻ Chợ* mean: "people do business in market" or *businessman. *Today, with rumors, Hanoi people called as "Kẻ Chợ", it mean Hanoian are mostly "selfish people".
> 
> In the past, Vietnamese/Kinh people were living in separate villages where in close small village community. Each people in one village were called by others by the mane of village. My home town in Viettri city in northern Hanoi 80 km, was called in the past as *Kẻ Sửi *, people of village Sửi. Late on it cecame the mane of village *Kẻ Sủi, *or* Cổ Sủ *written in Han Ji*. *Same as * Cổ Đô, *the name of homevillage of my friend, is in Sơn Tây province (today is annexed to Hanoi).
> 
> In fact all the manes*:
> 
> Cổ Bàng (古榜), Cổ Lão (古老), Cổ Lễ (古禮), Cổ Dũng (古勇), Cổ Long (古龍), Cổ Phí (古費), Cổ Đằng (古藤), Cổ Hồng (古宏), Cổ Lôi (古雷), Cổ Bình (古平), Cổ Đặng (古鄧), Cổ Xã (古社), and Cổ Nông (古農)...
> *
> There were the names of villages in Viet/kinh language, not related to Zhuang language.
> 
> if an An Dương Vương là người Tày cổ,* why he did not move the Capital of Dynasty in to Guangxi, there is his home land ?*
> 
> He was defeated by Zhao Tuo, an Duong Vuong was dead in his home town in Nghe An Province.
> 
> Đền Cuông | Diễn Châu | Nghệ An | Việt nam
> 
> There was civil war between Nguyen Warlord and Tay Son rebels. Not only Hua people were killed, huge amount of Vietnamese (who were by side with Nguyen Warlord) were victims.


I already post this 'Ke' quote before also


> Based on this connection with Tai-speaking peoples that Xu Songshi made, *Chen Jinghe then argued that cổ/gu 古 was related to the Tai word for person, “khon.” He argued further that kẻ and khon came from a common source, and that cổ/gu 古 was one of the ways that it was transcribed in Chinese.*
> He then lists the word for person in several languages. In addition to the various cases of kon, kun, can, he also has the following:
> White Tai: Ke (adult, for peoples around 25-40 — and for this he cites Georges Minot, “Dictionnaire Tay-blanc Francaise,” BEFEO 40 (1940), 92.) [This is not very convincing because they also have the word kun for person/people (p. 102).]
> Red Tai: Po ke (male person) and Me ke (female person) — R. Robert, _Notes sur lesTay Deng de Lang Chang, Thanh-hoa, Annam_ (Hanoi: Impr. d’Extrême-Orient, 1941), 128. I checked this and saw that there is also the term ke mo, “sorcerer” (p. 129).






> Năm 1963 khi các nhà nghiên cứu dân tộc học phát hiện truyền thuyết "Cẩu chủa cheng Vùa", "Chín chúa tranh vua" là câu truyện cổ rất phổ biến trong vùng đồng bào Tày, Cao Bằng. Nội dung câu chuyện là: Khoảng cuối thời Hùng Vương, ở Phía Nam Trung Quốc có một nước tên là Nam Cương, bao gồm miền Tây tỉnh Quảng Tây (Trung Quốc) cả vùng Cao Bằng ngày nay, Nam Cương có 10 xứ Mường, *trong đó một xứ mường trung tâm là nơi Vua ở, đó là kinh đô Nam Bình (nay là Cao Bình, Hưng Đạo, Hoà An, Cao Bằng) *còn 9 xứ mường xung quanh do chín chúa mường cai quản. Thục Phán tuy còn nhỏ tuổi nhưng tỏ ra là người thông minh tài cán.





Viet said:


> and this is the German Empire from 1919–1937. They lost more than 1/3 of their territories including overseas occupations after the defeats of two world wars. Some Germans still dream of returning of old land. Too late. You know surely the song of Abba "The winner takes it all".








World War II Never Ended for Germany – It remains occupied to this day (Part 2) | Justice for Germans


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> and this is the German Empire from 1919–1937. They lost more than 1/3 of their territories including overseas occupations after the defeats of two world wars. Some Germans still dream of returning of old land. Too late. You know surely the song of Abba "The winner takes it all".


At least they used to own those lands, yet Korean NEVER rule those land of China and Russia they claim. They even claim that Korean people is the real creator of Hanzi just bacuse they share the same ancestor of Shang people -Dongyi.


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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> I already post this 'Ke' quote before also
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> World War II Never Ended for Germany – It remains occupied to this day (Part 2) | Justice for Germans






> *Chen Jinghe then argued that cổ/gu 古 was related to the Tai word for person, “khon.” He argued further that kẻ and khon came from a common source, and that cổ/gu 古 was one of the ways that it was transcribed in Chinese.*
> He then lists the word for person in several languages. In addition to the various cases of kon, kun, can, he also has the following:
> White Tai: Ke (adult, for peoples around 25-40 — and for this he cites Georges Minot, “Dictionnaire Tay-blanc Francaise,” BEFEO 40 (1940), 92.) [This is not very convincing because they also have the word kun for person/people (p. 102).]
> Red Tai: Po ke (male person) and Me ke (female person) — R. Robert, _Notes sur lesTay Deng de Lang Chang, Thanh-hoa, Annam_ (Hanoi: Impr. d’Extrême-Orient, 1941), 128. I checked this and saw that there is also the term ke mo, “sorcerer” (p. 129).



we don't care what such historian spam about us, thought that King people is one group of Tai/katay ?  It was mistake.

In fact Kinh people is belong to Austroasian and we speak Mon-Khmer language. today in our language the word *"Kẻ" i*s still in use in our daily speaking with meaning for the "*people"*.

In Tay language, the word " Ké " mean "old ", it should be similar in sound, but it get different meaning.

You are Hua in ethnic in Cambodia, you know that Southern Kinh people say: *Ông Kẹ* ". Do you know what dóes thís word mean ? 




> Năm 1963 khi các nhà nghiên cứu dân tộc học phát hiện truyền thuyết "Cẩu chủa cheng Vùa", "Chín chúa tranh vua" là câu truyện cổ rất phổ biến trong vùng đồng bào Tày, Cao Bằng. Nội dung câu chuyện là: Khoảng cuối thời Hùng Vương, ở Phía Nam Trung Quốc có một nước tên là Nam Cương, bao gồm miền Tây tỉnh Quảng Tây (Trung Quốc) cả vùng Cao Bằng ngày nay, Nam Cương có 10 xứ Mường, *trong đó một xứ mường trung tâm là nơi Vua ở, đó là kinh đô Nam Bình (nay là Cao Bình, Hưng Đạo, Hoà An, Cao Bằng) *còn 9 xứ mường xung quanh do chín chúa mường cai quản. Thục Phán tuy còn nhỏ tuổi nhưng tỏ ra là người thông minh tài cán



Thí ís funny story made by some fake historian in Hanoi, no history evidences should proof for such hilarious joke. Its politic intention for *"Đoàn Kết dân tộc".*


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## yue10

Rechoice said:


> we don't care what such historian spam about us, thought that King people is one group of Tai/katay ?  It was mistake.
> 
> In fact Kinh people is belong to Austroasian and we speak Mon-Khmer language. today in our language the word *"Kẻ" i*s still in use in our daily speaking with meaning for the "*people"*.
> 
> In Tay language, the word " Ké " mean "old ", it should be similar in sound, but it get different meaning.
> 
> You are Hua in ethnic in Cambodia, you know that Southern Kinh people say: *Ông Kẹ* ". Do you know what dóes thís word mean ?
> 
> Thí ís funny story made by some fake historian in Hanoi, no history evidences should proof for such hilarious joke. Its politic intention for *"Đoàn Kết dân tộc".*


 no one is said Kinh is Daic, they are saying that before Kinh arrive in Giao Chi is Tai people, you are not original people of Giao Chi, An Duong Vuong, Hai Ba Trung is Tai, later around Black emperor time is when your true Mon-Khmer root begin move in to conquer Red River delta from the South
it is folk story of Tay ethnic said he is their leader, if he is not Tay what is he? a prince from Shu state?
before it was you said Nguyen is Viet surname could not be as Chinese because it did not sound the same as Ruan so who could believe what the super nationalist Viet said about the origin of Ke, I give you evidence you denied it rather believe in fairytales
Ancient History: the first Sino-Vietnam War 40-43
hilarious joke is the Viet history, look this thread they ask how Viet history was recorded, let me tell you how it was, first it was Chinese who recorded these historical event, later when the Viet actually have their own country they look at the Chinese records and they copy this copy that, change this change that and make it look like everything is belong to Kinh history, you know who is write that below? it was Viet professor does not believe in fairytales



> Ngo Si Lien, when his turn came, he took the version of Ban Co. *Again word by word he copied the Chinese text.* He added, however, another omission, small in appearance, but loaded with historical meaning. He left out three characters that are translated into ‘gradually he used lawful disguises’. To take the Vietnamese historian’s text, the sentence should be; ‘At that, he eliminated the officials appointed by the Tan…’. Thus, Trieu Da appears to be cruel and no politician at all
> *These tales involved far-away peoples and immemorial times concerning the nation, why not use them to make Dai Viet great and Le Thanh tong glorious? *A great nation bespeaks a great king, and a great nation is great when its area is immense and its past distant. With all that in mind, Ngo Si Lien compiled his Complete History, in which fairies and ghosts were as real as human beings. He was very successful.


I am 100% Viet, you could not denied this, I went to Quy Nhon for holiday last year and was at the cafe and the server girl saw me as super handsome start to speak with me and said all the local man is so dark skin and ugly you cannot be as Kinh, i said to her don't be look down at your people yes it is true Kinh race is inferior look similar to gorilla although body is like stick but sometimes people could get lucky, troi thuong, like me and born as superior so let me take you into the beach and you could know what is the meaning of 100% Viet, after it is finish she give me her phone number but I did not ring, maybe she is pregnant I am not sure but at least for one time in her life she knew what is a true Viet ok


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## sincity

100 % Viet are dark skin, most Viet are mix blood with Chinese.

Viet Nam used Chinese language before the French came and colonized Viet Nam. That all you need to know.


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> no one is said Kinh is Daic, they are saying that before Kinh arrive in Giao Chi is Tai people, you are not original people of Giao Chi, An Duong Vuong, Hai Ba Trung is Tai, later around Black emperor time is when your true Mon-Khmer root begin move in to conquer Red River delta from the South
> it is folk story of Tay ethnic said he is their leader, if he is not Tay what is he? a prince from Shu state?
> before it was you said Nguyen is Viet surname could not be as Chinese because it did not sound the same as Ruan so who could believe what the super nationalist Viet said about the origin of Ke, I give you evidence you denied it rather believe in fairytales
> Ancient History: the first Sino-Vietnam War 40-43
> hilarious joke is the Viet history, look this thread they ask how Viet history was recorded, let me tell you how it was, first it was Chinese who recorded these historical event, later when the Viet actually have their own country they look at the Chinese records and they copy this copy that, change this change that and make it look like everything is belong to Kinh history, you know who is write that below? it was Viet professor does not believe in fairytales
> 
> I am 100% Viet, you could not denied this, I went to Quy Nhon for holiday last year and was at the cafe and the server girl saw me as super handsome start to speak with me and said all the local man is so dark skin and ugly you cannot be as Kinh, i said to her don't be look down at your people yes it is true Kinh race is inferior look similar to gorilla although body is like stick but sometimes people could get lucky, troi thuong, like me and born as superior so let me take you into the beach and you could know what is the meaning of 100% Viet, after it is finish she give me her phone number but I did not ring, maybe she is pregnant I am not sure but at least for one time in her life she knew what is a true Viet ok


your head is full of shxt. Really shiiiiit. You have great talent, why don´t you go to a zoo and entertain the penguins there?

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> At least they used to own those lands, yet Korean NEVER rule those land of China and Russia they claim. They even claim that Korean people is the real creator of Hanzi just bacuse they share the same ancestor of Shang people -Dongyi.


I don´t know much about Korea and its people. Most I´m impressed by their astonishing economic success. You don´t like them much, I guess.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> I don´t know much about Korea and its people. Most I´m impressed by their astonishing economic success. You don´t like them much, I guess.



Some Korean always take every opportunity they have to belittle their neighbors. I have watched a part of a Korean movie about how the actors say Korean food is much better than Chinese food, also a Korean cartoon about an envoy from Ming Dynasty (Suzerain of Korea) bowed down to the Korean King and praised him (which is bloody impossible).
Korean people has achieved an outstanding economic success but they are still pretty much self-abased for their history. Therefore, they have to make up their _own _history like calming this and that. They even incite the Korean Chinese (most of them came to China in 20 Century) in North-East of China to gain their freaking independence.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> *Some Korean always take every opportunity they have to belittle their neighbors.* I have watched a part of a Korean movie about how the actors say Korean food is much better than Chinese food, also a Korean cartoon about an envoy from Ming Dynasty (Suzerain of Korea) bowed down to the Korean King and praised him (which is bloody impossible).
> Korean people has achieved an outstanding economic success but they are still pretty much self-abased for their history. Therefore, they have to make up their _own _history like calming this and that. They even incite the Korean Chinese (most of them came to China in 20 Century) in North-East of China to gain their freaking independence.


Is it the general view of Chinese people on Korea?
I found a good article summarizing the relationship. The main conclusion is:

_For more than two thousand years, successive Chinese dynasties have seen Korea as a tributary to be protected, a prize to be coveted, or as a dangerous land bridge which might convey “outer barbarians” into China._

Sure, the claim that a Ming´s envoy bowed down to a Korean King is utter BxSx.


*Korea in Chinese history*
*- Stuck in the middle - *

Apr 12th 2013, 16:32 by J.J. | BEIJING




Korea in Chinese history: Stuck in the middle | The Economist

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> Nobody in VN claims South China! who does so, is mad. However, it is legitimate to debate on history, don´t you think so?



What do you want to prove? Do you want to prove that we are closer to Viet than to North Chinese?


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> What do you want to prove? Do you want to prove that we are closer to Viet than to North Chinese?


You are the one, who constantly emphasizes Southeast Asia characters of the Viet people. I just posted some pics and asked some questions. That´s all.

You are free to think what you like.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> You are the one, who constantly emphasizes Southeast Asia characters of the Viet people. I just posted some pics and asked some questions. That´s all.
> 
> You are free to think what you like.



Viets have very strong Southeast Asian influence, i was just tellin the truth.


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## Speeder 2

KirovAirship said:


> Some Korean always take every opportunity they have to belittle their neighbors. I have watched a part of a Korean movie about how the actors say Korean food is much better than Chinese food, also a Korean cartoon about an envoy from Ming Dynasty (Suzerain of Korea) bowed down to the Korean King and praised him (which is bloody impossible).
> Korean people has achieved an outstanding economic success but they are still pretty much self-abased for their history. Therefore, they have to make up their _own _history like calming this and that. They even incite the Korean Chinese (most of them came to China in 20 Century) in North-East of China to gain their freaking independence.



the typical inferiority complex: for the entire history living in between an imperial China that has been at orders of magnitude more powerful and an occasionally deadly threat such as Japan makes Koreans defensive.


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## sincity

Vietnamese claim part of China to be Viet, what a delusional bunch.

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## EastSea

sincity said:


> 100 % Viet are dark skin, most Viet are mix blood with Chinese.
> 
> Viet Nam used Chinese language before the French came and colonized Viet Nam. That all you need to know.



Han chinese are aggressors, you invaded into Vietnam many time. We kicked your as@ many time and you ran away time to time. That all you need to know.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Han chinese are aggressors, you invaded into Vietnam many time. We kicked your as@ many time and you ran away time to time. That all you need to know.



Well, we don't really care about that little place called Annan.


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## EastSea

sincity said:


> Vietnamese claim part of China to be Viet, what a delusional bunch.



Where was Han chinese ?


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Where was Han chinese ?



Why you keep making those silly maps, come to take if you wanna China's territory.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, we don't really care about that little place called Annan.



You have to care about native land of Wu Yue people and Han people, you are ruled by Han up to now. forgotten you it ?


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> You have to care about native land of Wu Yue people and Han people, you are ruled by Han up to now. forgotten you it ?



I am Han, no such bullsh1t as Wuyue.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Why you keep making those silly maps, come to take if you wanna China's territory.



Let Yue people do that, Wu Yue, NanYue people included.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Let Yue people do that, Wu Yue, NanYue people included.



What they have to do with Vietnamese?

They are part of China, not Vietnam.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I am Han, no such bullsh1t as Wuyue.



You are fake Han, you speak Shanghai language which Han Chinese can not understand what you are talking about, like English and Dutch. You are foreigner to each others.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> You are fake Han, you speak Shanghai language which Han Chinese can not understand what you are talking about, like English and Dutch. You are foreigner to each others.



I speak Mandarin perfectly, and there is almost no major difference between English-American and Dutch-American, and you want to pit them to fight each other? Don't be silly.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> What they have to do with Vietnamese?
> 
> They are part of China, not Vietnam.



We are King people, Vietnam is country of Kinh, in Southener of such Yue people. Kinh people don't have nothing to do with such Bai Yue.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> We are King people, Vietnam is country of Kinh, in Southener of such Yue people. Kinh people don't have nothing to do with such Bai Yue.



And Baiyue people are always on the side of Han, they never like your kind.


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## StarCraft_ZT

EastSea said:


> You have to care about native land of Wu Yue people and Han people, you are ruled by Han up to now. forgotten you it ?



You should stop now. Shanghai is home to the Han people and 39 ethic minorities and a few unidentified ethnic groups. Minority ethnic population totals 53,000, accounting for *0.4* percent of the city's total population.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I speak Mandarin perfectly, and there is almost no major difference between English-American and Dutch-American, and you want to pit them to fight each other? Don't be silly.



You have to learn Mandarin in school to speak it, its not your own language what you hear first from your parents, its second language, like Deutsche people learn English in school to speak it.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> You have to learn Mandarin in school to speak it, its not your own language what you hear first from your parents, its second language, like Deutsche people learn English in school to speak it.



Mandarin is also like my first language, many Chinese expression is better to be articulate by Mandarin than by Shanghainese.

Your argument is boring, let's take another one.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> And Baiyue people are always on the side of Han, they never like your kind.



When you are Wu Yue, is smartest group of Bai Yue given up to claim your true identity, no one can help you. This matter is not related to unification of China if you want to be part of China.

OK, I stop here. But I will turn back if you troll on us. Note that I have been to Shang hai in five years ago. The first time I have known about this matter from my Shanghai counterpart: How is different between Sganghai people and other people like Peking_ren, Shichuan etc.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> When you are Wu Yue, is smartest group of Bai Yue given up to claim your true identity, no one can help you. This matter is not related to unification of China if you want to be part of China.



There is no such concept as making South China a different country from North China, i see you are making some fruitless effort to split China.

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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> You are fake Han, you speak Shanghai language which Han Chinese can not understand what you are talking about, like English and Dutch. You are foreigner to each others.


Shanghai language is a part of Han language you idiot.
And I have already told you the different between the concept of language between Easterner and Westerner. Seriously, go to the doctor and check your stupid brain, to see how could a "human" can be this stupid.
Even people of Macau can tell you there is different between HK and Macau people. Do you even know the meaning of cultural diversity. No, you are just a racist scumbag. Every single word from your stupid mouth is bs.
You are the troll here. Go find your true identity from those monkeys in Africa, fast.

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## sincity

EastSea said:


> You are fake Han, you speak Shanghai language which Han Chinese can not understand what you are talking about, like English and Dutch. You are foreigner to each others.[/quote
> 
> 
> stop your delusional nonsense.

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## ChineseTiger1986

KirovAirship said:


> Shanghai language is a part of Han language you idiot.
> And I have already told you the different between the concept of language between Easterner and Westerner. Seriously, go to the doctor and check your stupid brain, to see how could a "human" can be this stupid.
> Even people of Macau can tell you there is different between HK and Macau people. Do you even know the meaning of cultural diversity. No, you are just a racist scumbag. Every single word from your stupid mouth is bs.
> You are the troll here. Go find your true identity from those monkeys in Africa, fast.



Dunno why many Viets are so obsessed with South China being their former territory.

If you have ever watched those YouTube videos posted by them, you could clearly see that they are a group of people who take the fairy tale as the truth.

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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> no one is said Kinh is Daic, they are saying that before Kinh arrive in Giao Chi is Tai people, you are not original people of Giao Chi, An Duong Vuong, Hai Ba Trung is Tai, later around Black emperor time is when your true Mon-Khmer root begin move in to conquer Red River delta from the South
> it is folk story of Tay ethnic said he is their leader, if he is not Tay what is he? a prince from Shu state?
> before it was you said Nguyen is Viet surname could not be as Chinese because it did not sound the same as Ruan so who could believe what the super nationalist Viet said about the origin of Ke, I give you evidence you denied it rather believe in fairytales
> Ancient History: the first Sino-Vietnam War 40-43
> hilarious joke is the Viet history, look this thread they ask how Viet history was recorded, let me tell you how it was, first it was Chinese who recorded these historical event, later when the Viet actually have their own country they look at the Chinese records and they copy this copy that, change this change that and make it look like everything is belong to Kinh history, you know who is write that below? it was Viet professor does not believe in fairytales
> 
> I am 100% Viet, you could not denied this, I went to Quy Nhon for holiday last year and was at the cafe and the server girl saw me as super handsome start to speak with me and said all the local man is so dark skin and ugly you cannot be as Kinh, i said to her don't be look down at your people yes it is true Kinh race is inferior look similar to gorilla although body is like stick but sometimes people could get lucky, troi thuong, like me and born as superior so let me take you into the beach and you could know what is the meaning of 100% Viet, after it is finish she give me her phone number but I did not ring, maybe she is pregnant I am not sure but at least for one time in her life she knew what is a true Viet ok



You are low educated, amateur playboy, don't lie. You are looked down by others like psychiatric patients.



> Năm 1963 khi các nhà nghiên cứu dân tộc học phát hiện truyền thuyết "Cẩu chủa cheng Vùa", "Chín chúa tranh vua" là câu truyện cổ rất phổ biến trong vùng đồng bào Tày, Cao Bằng. Nội dung câu chuyện là: Khoảng cuối thời Hùng Vương, ở Phía Nam Trung Quốc có một nước tên là Nam Cương, bao gồm miền Tây tỉnh Quảng Tây (Trung Quốc) cả vùng Cao Bằng ngày nay, Nam Cương có 10 xứ Mường, *trong đó một xứ mường trung tâm là nơi Vua ở, đó là kinh đô Nam Bình (nay là Cao Bình, Hưng Đạo, Hoà An, Cao Bằng)*còn 9 xứ mường xung quanh do chín chúa mường cai quản. Thục Phán tuy còn nhỏ tuổi nhưng tỏ ra là người thông minh tài cán.



Such idiot historians did not making different the root of words "Mường" and "Zhuang" related to Tai/Katay, Tày, Nùng ... people who speak Tai/Katay language.

The "Mường" people and Kinh people, we are in one group of people who speaking Mon-Khmer language. the word "Mường" is original root from word Mon, this mean "People". Mường was found to be more closely related to Vietnamese than other Mon–Khmer languages, and a Việt-Mường sub-grouping was established.

If we can trust folk story about "*10 Xứ Mường*" in Guãngxi. It mean *there were native land of Mường people or of Việt-Mường people*, not Zhuang people. They came to Guangxi more late.

So that Hùng Vương, An Dương Vương, Hai Bà Trưng ... they are our ancestors of Việt/Mường ethnic group.

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## S10

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Dunno why many Viets are so obsessed with South China being their former territory.
> 
> If you have ever watched those YouTube videos posted by them, you could clearly see that they are a group of people who take the fairy tale as the truth.


There is a saying in China, 不作死就不会死. If their ambitions overshadows their capabilities, then they are asking for death.


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## sincity

Stop whitewash your own history dude.







Rechoice said:


> You are low educated, amateur playboy, don't lie. You are looked down by others like psychiatric patients.
> 
> 
> 
> Such idiot historians did not making different the root of words "Mường" and "Zhuang" related to Tai/Katay, Tày, Nùng ... people who speak Tai/Katay language.
> 
> The "Mường" people and Kinh people, we are in one group of people who speaking Mon-Khmer language. the word "Mường" is original root from word Mon, this mean "People". Mường was found to be more closely related to Vietnamese than other Mon–Khmer languages, and a Việt-Mường sub-grouping was established.
> 
> If we can trust folk story about "*10 Xứ Mường*" in Guãngxi. It mean *there were native land of Mường people or of Việt-Mường people*, not Zhuang people. They came to Guangxi more late.
> 
> So that Hùng Vương, An Dương Vương, Hai Bà Trưng ... they are our ancestors of Việt/Mường ethnic group.


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## EastSea

sincity said:


> Stop whitewash your own history dude.



History is history. Its stated that north point of Country Van Lang reached to Dong Ding Lake in China.



S10 said:


> There is a saying in China, 不作死就不会死. If their ambitions overshadows their capabilities, then they are asking for death.



Yes, Jin dynasty and or Manchu Guo is dead. People there don't have capacities to regain independence of the country.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> History is history. Its stated that north point of Country Van Lang reached to Dong Ding Lake in China.
> 
> Yes, Jin dynasty and or Manchu Guo is dead. People there don't have capacities to regain independence of the country.



Jing Dynasty is an ancient country of China and Manchuguo is just a Puppet state. You wanna ask German people to regain independence of the mighty Prussia and ask French people to go back to Vichy France? Go kill yourself immediately.


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## yue10

Viet said:


> I don´t know much about Korea and its people. Most I´m impressed by their astonishing economic success. You don´t like them much, I guess.


that success came from being dog of US and blood of Viets idiot, these Viet just know how to worship outsider nothing else 




Rechoice said:


> You are low educated, amateur playboy, don't lie. You are looked down by others like psychiatric patients.


you think so? then I will tell another story, this time I was in HCMC get the haircut, I am just a innocent dude does not know much about the ladies of VN, anyway I went in shop and thought to myself why the f#ck so many girls sit around dress like hooker do nothing, after a while getting haircut 3 girl came sat next to me and put their hand underneath cover, I said what the f#ck you think you are doing? one of them said, local Kinh man is so much dark skin and ugly it could be the same as look at orangutan mix with human so I could not resist myself when saw a more superior, taller, lighter skin and super handsome dude, I replied, why the Viet girl dislike the local Kinh man so much, it is just wrong you must stop, I am also 100% Viet so not all Viet is inferior let me take you into toilet and you could know what is the meaning of true Viet, one by one they found out what is that meaning, after it finish I secretly promise one girl we can get married and she could go live in Australia but obviously that was just a lie, I did not even have to pay for haircut hahahaha 



> Such idiot historians did not making different the root of words "Mường" and "Zhuang" related to Tai/Katay, Tày, Nùng ... people who speak Tai/Katay language.
> 
> The "Mường" people and Kinh people, we are in one group of people who speaking Mon-Khmer language. the word "Mường" is original root from word Mon, this mean "People". Mường was found to be more closely related to Vietnamese than other Mon–Khmer languages, and a Việt-Mường sub-grouping was established.
> 
> If we can trust folk story about "*10 Xứ Mường*" in Guãngxi. It mean *there were native land of Mường people or of Việt-Mường people*, not Zhuang people. They came to Guangxi more late.
> 
> So that Hùng Vương, An Dương Vương, Hai Bà Trưng ... they are our ancestors of Việt/Mường ethnic group.


the quote is in your own language but still you are speaking the nonsense, I give you link read for yourself 
Van hoa hoc - Đinh Ngọc Viện. Qua thành bản phủ trở lại vấn đề Thục Phán - An Dương Vương trong lịch sử Việt Nam

all the proof said Viet-Muong people came from south into Red River delta, your homeland somewhere in Thanh Nghe Tinh, it’s nothing to do with southern China

where you got Muong is from Mon language? Muong came from Tai language, Muang, it mean township/settlement, Muong people name came from Tai people live with them give them name Muong
Mueang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## S10

EastSea said:


> Yes, Jin dynasty and or Manchu Guo is dead. People there don't have capacities to regain independence of the country.


Maybe we'll carve a spot out of Hanoi as the new Manchuria.


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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> that success came from being dog of US and blood of Viets idiot, these Viet just know how to worship outsider nothing else
> 
> 
> 
> you think so? then I will tell another story, this time I was in HCMC get the haircut, I am just a innocent dude does not know much about the ladies of VN, anyway I went in shop and thought to myself why the f#ck so many girls sit around dress like hooker do nothing, after a while getting haircut 3 girl came sat next to me and put their hand underneath cover, I said what the f#ck you think you are doing? one of them said, local Kinh man is so much dark skin and ugly it could be the same as look at orangutan mix with human so I could not resist myself when saw a more superior, taller, lighter skin and super handsome dude, I replied, why the Viet girl dislike the local Kinh man so much, it is just wrong you must stop, I am also 100% Viet so not all Viet is inferior let me take you into toilet and you could know what is the meaning of true Viet, one by one they found out what is that meaning, after it finish I secretly promise one girl we can get married and she could go live in Australia but obviously that was just a lie, I did not even have to pay for haircut hahahaha
> 
> 
> the quote is in your own language but still you are speaking the nonsense, I give you link read for yourself
> Van hoa hoc - Đinh Ngọc Viện. Qua thành bản phủ trở lại vấn đề Thục Phán - An Dương Vương trong lịch sử Việt Nam
> 
> all the proof said Viet-Muong people came from south into Red River delta, your homeland somewhere in Thanh Nghe Tinh, it’s nothing to do with southern China
> 
> where you got Muong is from Mon language? Muong came from Tai language, Muang, it mean township/settlement, Muong people name came from Tai people live with them give them name Muong
> Mueang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You are uneducated boy.

You can read Vietnamese, read it.



> người Mường tự gọi mình là Mol, Monl. Mặc dù những từ này có biến âm hơi khác ở mỗi vùng, mỗi địa phương nhưng đều quan niệm giống nhau về mặt nghĩa. Tất cả những từ mà người Mường dùng để chỉ dân tộc mình có nghĩa là *người*. Vì lẽ đó mà người Mường thường tự xưng mình là con Mol hoặc là con monl: con người.



Người Mường – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

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## EastSea

S10 said:


> Maybe we'll carve a spot out of Hanoi as the new Manchuria.



Yes, Manchurian came to Hanoi in the past of the year 1789. At least 30,000 were killed
3,400 were captured.

Fuk'anggan and Sun Shiyi Man Qing generals were defeated by the Vietnamese at Thọ Xương's river in 1788.

Battle of Ngọc Hồi-Đống Đa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## S10

EastSea said:


> Yes, Manchurian came to Hanoi in the past of the year 1789. At least 30,000 were killed
> 3,400 were captured.
> 
> Fuk'anggan and Sun Shiyi Man Qing generals were defeated by the Vietnamese at Thọ Xương's river in 1788.
> 
> Battle of Ngọc Hồi-Đống Đa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


We will be there again, as you always need an overlord.


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## sincity

Vietnamese want to invade China and declared to retrieve their lost land?


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## yue10

Rechoice said:


> You are uneducated boy.
> You can read Vietnamese, read it.
> Người Mường – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


did you edit that part, why its bold on wikipedia



> In fact it seems fair to conclude that Vietic paddy cultivation is a comparatively recent development, and that the Tai term Meuang being applied to a branch of Vietic can only indicate a sedentized group
> in the eyes of the Tai.



that's 3 I counted for you, how many you need?



S10 said:


> We will be there again, as you always need an overlord.


the dude forgot to tell you it was the Viet emperor ran way to China and beg Qing to help him was the cause for that battle

good luck for Chinese demolish this race


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## sincity

Without China help Ho Chi Minh fought the French in Dien Bien Phu, Viet Nam still under French colony.


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## EastSea

S10 said:


> We will be there again, as you always need an overlord.


don't run back as quickly as you can.



sincity said:


> Without China help Ho Chi Minh fought the French in Dien Bien Phu, Viet Nam still under French colony.



Without victory of Soviet Army on Guan Dong army of Japan and two nukes of USA in Japan in WWII. You are slaves of Japanese until now and you can speak Japanese as fluently same like you speak mandarin now.



yue10 said:


> did you edit that part, why its bold on wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> that's 3 I counted for you, how many you need?
> 
> 
> the dude forgot to tell you it was the Viet emperor ran way to China and beg Qing to help him was the cause for that battle
> 
> good luck for Chinese demolish this race



You are chino-Khmer Rouge, you kiss @ your master here. Million innocent Khmer people were killed by you.


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## Viet

sincity said:


> Vietnamese want to invade China and declared to retrieve their lost land?


NO, don´t be silly, why should we do? We are not mad.

By the way, we Vietnamese only invaded China one time and that is long ago, I forgot how many times you Chinese invaded Vietnam.


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## cnleio

HeHe... Comrades & Brothers ?! 

1950.7.7 China Mao sent General Cheng (陈赓 大将) to help Vietnam Ho, at that time Ho and his VCP hided in Jungles of North Vietnam. 1950 Ho Chi Minh meet General Cheng at his 'office'.















Im COOL ! Pls help us, General Cheng.












Later, Ho Chi Minh even wrote a letter to General Cheng thanks his helps for Vietam revolution. (BTW Ho Chi Minh understand Chinese very well, but today VNese can't.)






"Thank You, General Cheng" --- Ho Chi Minh


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> don't run back as quickly as you can.
> 
> Without victory of Soviet Army on Guan Dong army of Japan and two nukes of USA in Japan in WWII. You are slaves of Japanese until now and you can speak Japanese as fluently same like you speak mandarin now.



Said the guy from the country which was fully conquered by Japan in WWII. Japan didn't even sweat to put you down~  If it wasn't the Soviet, US and China defeated Japan, YOU are now the stupid guy who can speak fluently Japanese.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Said the guy from the country which was fully conquered by Japan in WWII. Japan didn't even sweat to put you down~  If it wasn't the Soviet, US and China defeated Japan, YOU are now the stupid guy who can speak fluently Japanese.


Actually when Japan invaded Vietnam in September 1940, the French who ruled Indochina surrendered to the invasion Imperial Japanese forces without any serious resistance.







One of interesting aspects of this period is, when Japan noticed the end is near, the Japanese supported the re-unitification of Vietnam. One should know, in order to weaken the Vietnamese, the French splitted Vietnam into three pieces: Cocinchina, Annam and Tonkin.

So Japan supported the establishing Empire of Vietnam. The Japanese hoped Vietnam would join a Japan led alliance against the Americans and the British. Though a puppet state, the Vietnamese government conducted some political and other reforms, including adopting latinized vietnamese scripts replacing chinese. So you can say, the Japanese are partly to blame, why Vietnam abandoned chinese characters.

Empire of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> Actually when Japan invaded Vietnam in September 1940, the French who ruled Indochina surrendered to the invasion Imperial Japanese forces without any serious resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of interesting aspects of this period is, when Japan noticed the end is near, the Japanese supported the re-unitification of Vietnam. One should know, in order to weaken the Vietnamese, the French splitted Vietnam into three pieces: Cocinchina, Annam and Tonkin.
> 
> So Japan supported the establishing Empire of Vietnam. The Japanese hoped Vietnam would join a Japan led alliance against the Americans and the British. Though a puppet state, the Vietnamese government conducted some political and other reforms, including adopting latinized vietnamese scripts replacing chinese. So you can say, the Japanese are partly to blame, why Vietnam abandoned chinese characters.
> 
> Empire of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Speaking of that part of history, there are two Vietnamese I'm interested to, they are Chairman Hu and Bao Dai.



> In 1945 when the Japanese colonel in charge of the Hue garrison told Bảo Đại that he had (in line with the orders of the Allied commander) taken measures ensuring the security of the Imperial Palace and those within it against a possible Việt Minh coup, Bảo Đại dismissed the protection declaring "I do not wish a foreign army to spill the blood of my people."



Bao Dai is such a tragic figure, he had the heart, but lacked the strength.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Speaking of that part of history, there are two Vietnamese I'm interested to, they are Chairman Hu and Bao Dai.
> 
> *Bao Dai is such a tragic figure*, he had the heart, but lacked the strength.


Indeed he is. He served as the last emperor of the Nguyễn dynasty. He had no power at all as his country Vietnam was under the French rule. So what he left from this reign?

One is his summer palast in Da Lat, today as tourist attraction. His period belongs to one of the darkest moments in Vietnam history.







Emperor Bao Dai's Summer Palace- Dalat City- Lam Dong Province


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## EastSea

cnleio said:


> HeHe... Comrades & Brothers ?!
> 
> 1950.7.7 China Mao sent General Cheng (陈赓 大将) to help Vietnam Ho, at that time Ho and his VCP hided in Jungles of North Vietnam. 1950 Ho Chi Minh meet General Cheng at his 'office'. COOL ! Pls help us, General Cheng.
> 
> Later, Ho Chi Minh even wrote a letter to General Cheng thanks his helps for Vietam revolution. (BTW Ho Chi Minh understand Chinese very well, but today VNese can't.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Thank You, General Cheng" --- Ho Chi Minh



It was cold war.
Any case, its thankful for such Chinese who came to Vietnam in Vietnam war.

Without help of Soviet Union. You are ruled by Japanese until now.


















China joined to Socialist Pack heade by Soviet Union 1949. Under request of Soviet Union, China helped Vietnam with such weapons Soviet Union is handed to you.











and here is true face of China. 1972, Nixon dropped in Peking when Vietnam war is going on brutally.







and here is your avatar, who begged USA to attack Vietnam 1979.

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## cnleio

EastSea said:


> It was cold war.
> Any case, its thankful for such Chinese who came to Vietnam in Vietnam war.
> 
> Without help of Soviet Union. You are ruled by Japanese until now.


1945 WWII Japan supreme commander surrend to China government(ROC,NanKing), submit Japan's capitulation.



















EastSea said:


> and here is true face of China. 1972, Nixon dropped in Peking when Vietnam war is going on brutally.
> 
> and here is your avatar, who begged USA to attack Vietnam 1979.


Mao and Deng, they r Gread Leaders ! Do the best for the China. 

The Chinese r very pragmatic, political system is just a tool, the goal is to make China STRONG. If this way failed, Chinese never mind changing another way to achieve success.

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## ChineseTiger1986

S10 said:


> There is a saying in China, 不作死就不会死. If their ambitions overshadows their capabilities, then they are asking for death.



Same for those Korean ultranationalists who claim the Northeast part of China.

I don't know why there are so many idiots in this world.


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## EastSea

cnleio said:


> 1945 WWII Japan supreme commander surrend to China government(ROC,NanKing), submit Japan's capitulation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



This great supperpowers won on WW II, not China.






Japanese foreign affairs ministerMamoru Shigemitsu signs the Japanese Instrument of Surrender on board USS _Missouri_ as General Richard K. Sutherland watches, September 2, 1945






Communists China's considered that "KMT is puppet of USA Imperialism". KMT did what his master permitted him to do some where in China for surrender with low ranking Japanese officials only. 



> Mao and Deng, they r Gread Leaders ! Do the best for the China.
> 
> The Chinese r very pragmatic, political system is just a tool, the goal is to make China STRONG. *If this way failed, Chinese never mind changing another way* to achieve success.



China attacked on Soviet Union 1969 to welcome Nixon 1972 and attack Vietnam 1979 to kiss a@ USA. When USA committed to protect Japan, to counter threat of China to small his neighbors, the way to kiss a@ USA is failed, China turned back to Russia.

Problem here is mentality of Chinese leaders is unstable.

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## cnleio

EastSea said:


> This great supperpowers won on WW II, not China.


What did u learn history in Vietnam School ?

1943.11.25 Cairo Conference, U.S / China / Britain. *《Cairo Declaration》*


> The _Cairo Communiqué_ was broadcast through radio on December 1, 1943. The Cairo Declaration is cited in Clause Eight (8) of the Potsdam Declaration, which is referred to by the Japanese Instrument of Surrender.
> 
> The main points of the document were:
> 
> The Allies are not fighting Japan for their own territorial expansion.
> The Allies are resolved to bring unrelenting military pressure against Japan until it agrees to unconditional surrender.
> Japan shall be stripped of all islands she has seized or occupied in the Pacific since the beginning of World War I in 1914.
> All the territories Japan has taken from China such as Manchuria (Dongbei), Formosa (Taiwan), and the Pescadores (Penghu), shall be restored to the Republic of China.
> The Allies are determined that Korea shall become free and independent.
> Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed.



















EastSea said:


> China attacked on Soviet Union 1969 to welcome Nixon 1972 and attack Vietnam 1979 to kiss a@ USA. When USA committed to protect Japan, to counter threat of China to small his neighbors, the way to kiss a@ USA is failed, China turned back to Russia.


It seems the Russian cooperated further with China together, Russia and China setup a military & security orgination: SCO ( Shanghai Cooperation Organization )


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## Viet

cnleio said:


> What did u learn history in Vietnam School ?
> 
> 1943.11.25 Cairo Conference, U.S / China / Britain. *《Cairo Declaration》*


Who is the women on the right?
Other question: correct me if I am wrong, the *Cairo Declaration* explicitly does not include the Senkakus?



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Same for those Korean ultranationalists who claim the Northeast part of China.
> I don't know why there are so many idiots in this world.


That attitude most applies to you China. Your claim of the SCS bases on:
"we are the first who sailed and catched fish". Who is idiot?

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## cnleio

Viet said:


> Who is the women on the right?
> Other question: correct me if I am wrong, the *Cairo Declaration* explicitly does not include the Senkakus?


Soong May-ling, Chiang kai-shek's wife.

*《Cairo Declaration》*


> Japan shall be stripped of all islands she has seized or occupied in the Pacific since the beginning of World War I in 1914.
> All the territories Japan has taken from China such as Manchuria (Dongbei), Formosa (Taiwan), and the Pescadores (Penghu), shall be restored to the Republic of China.




Senkaku/DiaoYu Islands


> The People's Republic and Taiwan claim that the islands have been a part of Chinese territory since at least 1534. They acknowledge that Japan took control of the islands in 1894–1895 during the first Sino-Japanese War, through the signature of the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
> *
> They assert that the Potsdam Declaration (which Japan accepted as part of the San Francisco Peace Treaty) required that Japan relinquish control of all islands except for "the islands of Honshū, Hokkaidō, Kyūshū, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine", and they state that this means control of the islands should pass to China.*
> 
> Japan does not accept that there is a dispute, asserting that the islands are an integral part of Japan.Japan has rejected claims that the islands were under China's control prior to 1895, and that these islands were contemplated by the Potsdam Declaration or affected by the San Francisco Peace Treaty.


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## Viet

cnleio said:


> Soong May-ling, Chiang kai-shek's wife.
> 
> *《Cairo Declaration》*


That is the root of the present problem! The makers of *the *_Potsdam Declaration_ failed to determine what "minor islands" would be.
*"the islands of Honshū, Hokkaidō, Kyūshū, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine".*

Japan argues the Senkakus are not part of the deal.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> That attitude most applies to you China. Your claim of the SCS bases on:
> "we are the first who sailed and catched fish". Who is idiot?



We were the first who sailed in the SCS, this is the fact.

But the Korean has never ruled the northeast part of China, they have pulled out this from their ***.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> *We were the first* who sailed in the SCS, this is the fact.


LOL any picture taken when that happened?

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## EastSea

cnleio said:


> What did u learn history in Vietnam School ?
> 
> 1943.11.25 Cairo Conference, U.S / China / Britain. *《Cairo Declaration》*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems the Russian cooperated further with China together, Russia and China setup a military & security orgination: SCO ( Shanghai Cooperation Organization )



Problem is that without Soviet Union liberated Manchuria, destroyed Japan Imperial Guandong Army there and USA dropped two nukes on Japan, Japan is never given up.

and rest of China is ruled by Mao Zedong CPC and Chang Khaishek KMT until now like two Warlords.

If you like Cairo Declaration very much, you could accept that Taiwan is independence state.



> A declassified CIA report written in March 1949 claimed that Taiwan was not part of the Republic of China, and therefore there had been no internationally recognized transfer of Taiwan's territorial sovereignty to China as a result of the Cairo Declaration or the Potsdam Declaration



Cairo Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## cnleio

EastSea said:


> Problem is that Soviet Union liberated Manchuria, destroyed Japan Imperial Guandong Army there and USA dropped two nukes on Japan. Japan is never given up and rest of China is ruled by Mao Zedong CPC and Chang Khaishek KMT until now like two Warlords.


What a STUPID statement !!!
Do u wanna deny Chinese fight against Japan in WWII ?
Do u wanna deny the legitimacy of today U.N ??
Funny enough !





Read this ==> 《Declaration by United Nations》


> The *Declaration by United Nations* was a World War II document agreed on 1 January 1942 during the Arcadia Conference by 26 governments: *the Allied "Big Four" (the US, the UK, the USSR, and China)*, nine American allies in Central America and the Caribbean, the four British Dominions, British India, and eight Allied governments-in-exile, for a total of twenty-six nations.
> 
> *During December 1941, Roosevelt devised the name "United Nations" for the Allies of World War II*, and the _Declaration by United Nations_, on 1 January 1942, was the basis of the modern UN. The term United Nations became synonymous during the war with the Allies and was considered to be the formal name that they were fighting under. * The text of the declaration affirmed the signatories' perspective "that complete victory over their enemies is essential to defend life, liberty, independence and religious freedom, and to preserve human rights and justice in their own lands as well as in other lands, and that they are now engaged in a common struggle against savage and brutal forces seeking to subjugate the world". The principle of "complete victory" established an early precedent for the Allied policy of obtaining the Axis' powers' "unconditional surrender".*







EastSea said:


> And dr. S10 should speak fluently Japanese and troll that how is superious Japan Emperor in WW II.
> 
> If you like Cairo Declaration very much, you could accept that Taiwan is independence state.
> 
> Cairo Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Which country and their governments consider the TaiWan is not a part of China ? Ur VN try it ???

Do u read English in 《*Cairo Declaration*》


> The main points of the document were:
> 
> The Allies are not fighting Japan for their own territorial expansion.
> The Allies are resolved to bring unrelenting military pressure against Japan until it agrees to unconditional surrender.
> Japan shall be stripped of all islands she has seized or occupied in the Pacific since the beginning of World War I in 1914.
> *All the territories Japan has taken from China such as Manchuria (Dongbei), Formosa (Taiwan), and the Pescadores (Penghu), shall be restored to the Republic of China.*
> The Allies are determined that Korea shall become free and independent.
> Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed.


*List of World War II conferences*

@EastSea
Do u wanna deny the Anti-Fascist Allies declaration in WWII ?
Do u wanna deny the founding nation(China) of United Nation during WWII ??
Do u wanna deny Chinese fights in WWII ???

What u are ?  Vietnam ! Do u like the axis of evil Japan ?


----------



## Viet

cnleio said:


> HeHe... Comrades & Brothers ?!
> 
> 1950.7.7 China Mao sent General Cheng (陈赓 大将) to help Vietnam Ho, at that time Ho and his VCP hided in Jungles of North Vietnam. 1950 Ho Chi Minh meet General Cheng at his 'office'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im COOL ! Pls help us, General Cheng.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Later, Ho Chi Minh even wrote a letter to General Cheng thanks his helps for Vietam revolution. (BTW Ho Chi Minh understand Chinese very well, but today VNese can't.)


Sure, without Chinese weapons the Vietminh would have hard times to defeat the French in the battle of Dien Bien Phu, even impossible. However, Chinese and Vietnamese army Generals were divided in the questions of tactics and strategy.

When you China noticed the difference could not be overcome you withdrew from the battlefield before the decisive battle began. Anyway I would say China earns a credit.


----------



## EastSea

cnleio said:


> What a STUPID statement !!!
> Do u wanna deny Chinese fight against Japan in WWII ?
> Do u wanna deny the legitimacy of today U.N ??
> Funny enough !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read this ==> 《Declaration by United Nations》
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which country and their governments consider the TaiWan is not a part of China ? Ur VN try it ???
> 
> Do u read English in 《*Cairo Declaration*》
> 
> *List of World War II conferences*
> 
> @EastSea
> Do u wanna deny the Anti-Fascist Allies declaration in WWII ?
> Do u wanna deny the founding nation(China) of United Nation during WWII ??
> Do u wanna deny Chinese fights in WWII ???
> 
> What u are ?  Vietnam ! Do u like the axis of evil Japan ?



What is wrong with you ? Kid.

Who liberated Manchuriain WW II, 1,000,000 Japanese soldiers were killed and and captured by Soviet Red Army, and Manchuria was handed back to CCP ?
- Soviet Union.

Who destroyed Japan in WW II with two nukes, it forced Japan Emperor to accept instrument of surrender ?
- United states of America.

Its truth, no need more comment.

What did China in WW II ?
Mao said: "Sitting on mountain, Watching Tigris in fighting". He taken his relax.

What did Vietnam in WW II ?
- Ho Chi Minh and his troops have been taken power from Japanese, part of weapons of Japanese were taken in August Revolution 1945. Ho Chi Minh pro-declared Independence of Vietnam from France Colonial and Japanese Nazism on 2nd September 1945.

Its enough said.

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## BoQ77

At the time, Vietnam under rule of France. 
Vietnamese guerrilla is still weak, ... 
Imagine how's fool a weak force fight both Japan and France.

Wish you know that, at the end of war, Japanese expect to transfer the weapon and occupation to Viet Minh ... some Japanese soldiers even join the Viet Minh ...

Don't talk about CCP, it's KMT who have something so-called fighting to Japanese army.

But It's Soviet who fight Japan in Manchuria and USA who order the Japan surrender to KMT.

Why CCP ?

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## ChineseTiger1986

BoQ77 said:


> At the time, Vietnam under rule of France.
> Vietnamese guerrilla is still weak, ...
> Imagine how's fool a weak force fight both Japan and France.
> 
> Wish you know that, at the end of war, Japanese expect to transfer the weapon and occupation to Viet Minh ... some Japanese soldiers even join the Viet Minh ...
> 
> Don't talk about CCP, it's KMT who have something so-called fighting to Japanese army.
> 
> But It's Soviet who fight Japan in Manchuria and USA who order the Japan surrender to KMT.
> 
> Why CCP ?



CPC was not the government at the time, but they proposed to fight against the Japanese invasion first, while those KMT cowards first only wanted to kill the Chinese communists instead of the Japanese invaders.

It was a KMT general who forced their leader to cooperate with CPC to fight against Imperial Japan.

Xi'an Incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## BoQ77

It's very proud of a force who know fight against invaders is good.
No matter which country.

In Vietnam, Viet Minh is the one. But it's more complicated than China.

Viet Nam under rule of France before Invasion of Japan.
At that time they consider it as 1 neck 2 slipknots ... 

And Viet Minh ( communism ) still very weak, fight by sticks as I could describe

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## cnleio

I must say these Vietnamese members lack basic knowledge of WWII history.

All dreaming data from Vietnam.



EastSea said:


> What is wrong with you ? Kid.
> 
> Who liberated Manchuriain WW II, 1,000,000 Japanese soldiers were killed and and captured by Soviet Red Army, and Manchuria was handed back to CCP ?
> - Soviet Union.


Red Army soldiers kill 1,000,000 Japanese soldiers in Manchuria of WWII ?

Japan Kwantung Army in Manchuria


> Many of its personnel, such as Chiefs of StaffSeishirō Itagaki and Hideki Tōjō were promoted to high positions in both the military and civil government in the Empire of Japan and it was largely responsible for the creation of the Japanese-dominated Empire ofManchukuo.
> 
> *In August 1945, the army group, only around 600,000 (from total 1,320,000) men at the time, was defeated by and surrendered to Soviet troops* as a result of the Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation.



Nexttime, try to say Soviet Union defeat 1,000,000,000 Japanese soldiers.




EastSea said:


> Who destroyed Japan in WW II with two nukes, it forced Japan Emperor to accept instrument of surrender ?
> - United states of America.
> 
> Its truth, no need more comment.
> 
> What did China in WW II ?
> Mao said: "Sitting on mountain, Watching Tigris in fighting". He taken his relax.


Read 《Declaration by United Nations》again.

Let me show ur fantastic guys, what 1945 《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》said:





(1)* PROCLAMATION DEFINING TERMS FOR JAPANESE SURRENDER*


> (The Department of State Bulletin, Vol. XIII, No. 318, July 29, 1945)
> 
> (1) We - the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of *China*, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, *have conferred and agree that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war*.
> 
> (2) The prodigious land, sea and air forces of the United States, the British Empire and of *China*, many times reinforced by their armies and air fleets from the west, are poised to strike the final blows upon Japan. This military power is sustained and inspired by the determination of all the Allied Nations to prosecute the war against Japan until she ceases to resist.



*(2) OFFER OF SURRENDER FROM JAPANESE GOVERNMENT*


> (Department of State Bulletin, Vol. XIII, No. 320, Aug. 12, 1945)
> August 10, 1945
> 
> "*The Japanese Government are ready to accept the terms enumerated in the joint declaration which was issued at Potsdam on July 26th, 1945*, by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and *China*, and later subscribed to by the Soviet Government, with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler.
> 
> "The Japanese Government sincerely hope that this understanding is warranted and desire keenly that an explicit indication to that effect will be speedily forthcoming."
> 
> In transmitting the above message the Japanese Minister added that his Government begs the Government of the United States to forward its answer through the intermediary of Switzerland. Similar requests are being transmitted to the Governments of Great Britain and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics through the intermediary of Sweden, *as well as to the Government of China* through the intermediary of Switzerland. The Chinese Minister at Berne has already been informed of the foregoing through the channel of the Swiss Political Department.


*(3) JAPANESE ACCEPTANCE OF POTSDAM DECLARTION*


> General Douglas MacArthur has been appointed the Supreme Allied Commander to receive the Japanese surrender. Great Britain, Russia, and *China will be represented by high-ranking officers.*
> 
> August 14, 1945.
> Sir: With reference to your communication of today's date, transmitting the reply of the Japanese Government to the communication which I sent through you to the Japanese Government on August 11, on behalf of the Governments of the United States, *China*, the United Kingdom, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which I regard as full acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration and of my statement of August 11, 1945, I have the honor to inform you that the President of the United States has directed that the following message be sent to you for transmission to the Japanese Government:



*(6) INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER*


> We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, *China*, and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.
> 
> ====================================================
> 
> Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945
> 
> MAMORU SHIGMITSU
> By Command and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan and the Japanese Government
> 
> YOSHIJIRO UMEZU
> By Command and in behalf of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters
> 
> Accepted at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0903 on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945, for the United States, *Republic of China*, United Kingdom and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and in the interests of the other United Nations at war with Japan.
> 
> DOUGLAS MAC ARTHUR
> Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers
> 
> C.W. NIMITZ
> United States Representative
> 
> HSU YUNG-CH'ANG
> Republic of China Representative




*(7) Translation of Emperor Hirohito's Receipt of the Surrender documents*


> Accepting the terms set forth in the Declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and* China* on July 26th, 1945 at Potsdam and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, We have commanded the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to sign on Our behalf the Instrument of Surrender presented by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers and to issue General Orders to the Military and Naval Forces in accordance with the direction of the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers. We command all Our people forthwith to cease hostilities, to lay down their arms and faithfully to carry out all the provisions of Instrument of Surrender and the General Orders issued by the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters hereunder.




*(8) INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER of the Japanese and Japanese-Controlled Armed Forces in the Philippine Islands to the Commanding General United States Army Forces, Western Pacific*


> Pursuant to and in accordance with the proclamation of the Emperor of Japan accepting the terms set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and *China* on 26 July 1945; at Potsdam and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and to the formal instrument of surrender of the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters signed at Tokyo Bay at 0908 on 2 September 1945:



etc...

The loser of WWII signing the Instrument of Surrender on behalf of the Japanese Government, formally ending World War II. 《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》










> We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.
> 
> We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese control wherever situated.
> 
> We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which my be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.
> 
> We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their control.
> 
> We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, and orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to effectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.
> 
> We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever actions may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration.
> 
> We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed.
> 
> The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender.
> 
> 
> Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945
> 
> MAMORU SHIGMITSU
> By Command and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan and the Japanese Government
> 
> YOSHIJIRO UMEZU
> By Command and in behalf of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters
> 
> Accepted at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0903 on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945, for the United States, Republic of China, United Kingdom and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and in the interests of the other United Nations at war with Japan.
> 
> DOUGLAS MAC ARTHUR
> Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers
> 
> C.W. NIMITZ
> United States Representative
> 
> HSU YUNG-CH'ANG
> Republic of China Representative
> 
> BRUCE FRASER
> United Kingdom Representative
> 
> KUZMA DEREVYANKO
> Union of Soviet Socialist Republics Representative
> 
> THOMAS BLAMEY
> Commonwealth of Australia Representative
> 
> L. MOORE COSGRAVE
> Dominion of Canada Representative
> 
> JACQUES LE CLERC
> Provisional Government of the French Republic Representative
> 
> C.E.L. HELFRICH
> Kingdom of the Netherlands Representative
> 
> LEONARD M. ISITT
> Dominion of New Zealand Representative







EastSea said:


> What did Vietnam in WW II ?
> - Ho Chi Minh and his troops have been taken power from Japanese, part of weapons of Japanese were taken in August Revolution 1945. Ho Chi Minh pro-declared Independence of Vietnam from France Colonial and Japanese Nazism on 2nd September 1945.
> 
> Its enough said.



* China is the WINNER of WWII*, it's defined by International Laws came from 《Declaration by United Nations》,《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》, BIG FOUR of anti-fascist Allies, 1941-1945 WWII Allies Declarations.

*Compared with China did in WWII and defeat Japs, Vietnam is ZERO.







*


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## BoQ77

Pham Tuan flied to the space on the spaceship of CCCP doesn't mean Vietnam could explore the space.

To be frank, where are you Chinese, when Soviet Red Army force Japanese in Manchukuo surrender ?

And without the pushes of Soviet and USA, your weak forces could beat Japanese in China mainland ?

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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> Pham Tuan flied to the space on the spaceship of CCCP doesn't mean Vietnam could explore the space.
> 
> To be frank, where are you Chinese, when Soviet Red Army force Japanese in Manchukuo surrender ?
> 
> And without the pushes of Soviet and USA, your weak forces could beat Japanese in China mainland ?


China did much better than the slaver of Japs in WWII.  And the Emperor of Japan in 1945 surrended to Chinese. ↑ Japs wrote 《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS》and signed it.


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## BoQ77

China was occupied by Japan until USSR and USA come for help, ...
And it's KMT , that's why after that China ( now CPC ) continue to say bad about the helpers.

USA come for help Viet Minh too, and in 1945 Independent Day of Vietnam there's Americans together with President Ho Chi Minh.

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## ChineseTiger1986

BoQ77 said:


> Pham Tuan flied to the space on the spaceship of CCCP doesn't mean Vietnam could explore the space.
> 
> To be frank, where are you Chinese, when Soviet Red Army force Japanese in Manchukuo surrender ?
> 
> And without the pushes of Soviet and USA, your weak forces could beat Japanese in China mainland ?



Our "weak force" had resisted Imperial Japan for more than 4 years without the help from USA and USSR.

Imperial Japan invaded us in July 1937, and USA declared the war against Imperial Japan until December 1941.

USSR had to keep an eye on Nazi Germany in Europe, since she couldn't start a full war campaign against Imperial Japan until the defeat of the Nazi Germany.

Imperial Japan had occupied our eastern coast and northeast part, but she had never fully occupied China, unlike France being fully occupied by Nazi Germany.


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> China was occupied by Japan until USSR and USA come for help, ...
> And it's KMT , that's why after that China ( now CPC ) continue to say bad about the helpers.
> 
> USA come for help Viet Minh too, and in 1945 Independent Day of Vietnam there's Americans together with President Ho Chi Minh.


WOWwowWOWwooooooooooo ... Okay u have a BIG MOUTH, but China has the 《Declaration by United Nations》,《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》, BIG FOUR of anti-fascist Allies and 1941-1945 WWII Allies Declarations.

China winner confirmed by international laws during WWII (1941-1945).



> China was occupied by Japan until USSR and USA come for help, ...And it's KMT , that's why after that China ( now CPC ) continue to say bad about the helpers.


...... According to ur funny logic, France/Russia also occupied by Nazi Germany in WWII, so they'r also not winners of WWII not BIG FIVE in U.N ?


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## BoQ77

Yeah your mainland too large and a 100 million could not take care of 1 billion.

Look at the map, how small Japan is compare to China mainland.

Yeah Big = large area but failed to self-liberated your homeland.

We're small and we know that


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## ChineseTiger1986

BoQ77 said:


> Yeah your mainland too large and a 100 million could not take care of 1 billion.
> 
> Look at the map, how small Japan is compare to China mainland.



Japan can only bully China during her weakest time, and see who is the cry baby today in a territorial dispute.


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## DaiViet

No point to argue in this Chinese own forum. They will delete your post if it hurts Chinese pride. Some of my posts got deleted because point out the fact of Chinese weakness. You Viet should leave this forum at once. Guess what, they will delete this post as well.


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## cnleio

DaiViet said:


> No point to argue in this Chinese own forum. They will delete your post if it hurts Chinese pride. Some of my posts got deleted because point out the fact of Chinese weakness. You Viet should leave this forum at once. Guess what, they will delete this post as well.


The pompous fool go back to sleep, nice dream !  In the dream, I'm the best of best.


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## Rechoice

DaiViet said:


> No point to argue in this Chinese own forum. They will delete your post if it hurts Chinese pride. Some of my posts got deleted because point out the fact of Chinese weakness. You Viet should leave this forum at once. Guess what, they will delete this post as well.



we are still here, bro.

The matter is that we don't let such brainwashed idiot chinese lie here and troll about us without responses.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> we are still here, bro.
> 
> The matter is that we don't let such brainwashed idiot chinese lie here and troll about us without responses.



We just used to ignore Vietnam most of time, have you seen me ever opening a thread and trolling Vietnam?


----------



## BoQ77

We must admit that Japanese army is a good one. They could challenge the world security once.
Vietnam Army even better than China army in real combat. 

If I were you, China, I must be worried about the link between Japan, Korea, USA, Australia, Vietnam, Singapore, India ...

The latest news : 

HANOI, Vietnam (Dec. 9, 2013) - U.S. Pacific Commander, Admiral Samuel J. Locklear during his first visit to Vietnam. 

United States Pacific Command | USPACOM | Ensuring security and stability in the Asia-Pacific

Vietnamese military was trained more on using English. For what ?


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## cnleio

Rechoice said:


> we are still here, bro.
> 
> The matter is that we don't let such brainwashed idiot chinese lie here and troll about us without responses.


Okay. I didn't wanna hurt ur members' feeling, just correct ur ppl's mistake about China in WWII. 

Some craps like China did nothing in WWII or China didn't defeat Japs from Vietnamese mouth, i had provided the prove from past WWII official documents and Japanese surrender. China is the true WINNER.


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## BoQ77

USPACOM is one of six geographic Unified Combatant Commands of the United States Armed Forces. Commander, U.S. Pacific Command (CDRUSPACOM) is the senior U.S. military authority in the Pacific Command AOR. CDRUSPACOM reports to the President of the United States through the Secretary of Defense and is supported by four component commands: U.S. Pacific Fleet, U.S. Pacific Air Forces, U.S. Army Pacific, and U.S. Marine Forces, Pacific. These commands are headquartered in Hawai'i and have forces stationed and deployed throughout the region.

U.S. military and civilian personnel assigned to USPACOM number approximately 330,000, or about one-fifth of total U.S. military strength. U.S. Pacific Fleet consists of approximately 180 ships (to include five aircraft carrier strike groups), nearly 2,000 aircraft, and 140,000 Sailors and civilians all dedicated to protecting our mutual security interests. Marine Corps Forces, Pacific possesses about two-thirds of U.S. Marine Corps combat strength, includes two Marine Expeditionary Forces and about 85,000 personnel assigned. U.S. Pacific Air Forces is comprised of approximately 43,000 airmen and more than 435 aircraft. U.S. Army Pacific has more than 60,000 personnel assigned, including five Stryker brigades. Of note, component command personnel numbers include more than 1,200 Special Operations personnel. Department of Defense Civilians employees in the Pacific Command AOR number about 38,000. Additionally, the U.S. Coast Guard, which frequently supports U.S. military forces in the region, has approximately 27,000 personnel in its Pacific Area.


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We just used to ignore Vietnam most of time, have you seen me ever opening a thread and trolling Vietnam?



if you don't jump in and troll, I will ignore you.


----------



## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> We must admit that Japanese army is a good one. They could challenge the world security once.
> Vietnam Army even better than China army in real combat.
> 
> If I were you, China, I must be worried about the link between Japan, Korea, USA, Australia, Vietnam, Singapore, India ...
> 
> The latest news :
> 
> HANOI, Vietnam (Dec. 9, 2013) - U.S. Pacific Commander, Admiral Samuel J. Locklear during his first visit to Vietnam.
> 
> United States Pacific Command | USPACOM | Ensuring security and stability in the Asia-Pacific
> 
> Vietnamese military was trained more on using English. For what ?


 For what ? Search a new big brother for VN ?


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> if you don't jump in and troll, I will ignore you.



I always ignored Vietnam, never trolled once at all.


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## Rechoice

cnleio said:


> Okay. I didn't wanna hurt ur members' feeling, just correct ur ppl's mistake about China in WWII.
> 
> Some craps like China did nothing in WWII or China didn't defeat Japs from Vietnamese mouth, i had provided the prove from past WWII official documents and Japanese surrender. China is the true WINNER.



read again your post when you jumped to discuss with EastSea about WW II and cold war, let he do what he want to say.

Only one thing I could say for both EastSea and you, with the same manner : Without existence of Soviet Union in 20th Century there are no country ruled by Communists in the world.

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> For what ? Search a new big brother for VN ?



In your words, American find Vietnam as a trusty partner, even nuclear technology they could prove to Vietnam.

*provide


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## cnleio

Rechoice said:


> read again your post when you jumped to discuss with EastSea about WW II and cold war, let he do what he want to say.
> 
> Only one thing I could say for both EastSea and you, with the same manner : Without existence of Soviet Union in 20th Century there are no country ruled by Communists in the world.


Ur Soviet Union had gone, Russian had abandoned that Communist Political System, it means communist can not work very well like ppl originally desired. Soviet Union ever was a Super-Big and Super-Powerful communist country ever much stranger than China and Vietnam before, at last the history proved it failure.

Therefore both Vietnam and China need to search for their own development ways, it seems China did good and achieve some success in recent years. Whether Communists in the world can rule some country, it's not ur business our goal is to make homeland stronge enough by using appropriate political system. Communist or Capitalism all r tools, developed country is the achievement.

For China, Mr Deng is a Great Leader who has the capacity to change China once again. It's Chinese business, this guy did best for China.

*IN THIS WORLD, natural selection and survival of the fittest.*



BoQ77 said:


> In your words, American find Vietnam as a trusty partner, even nuclear technology they could prove to Vietnam.


Welcome Uncle SAM, then ur ppl will get FREEDOM.
After ur VN explode a N-bomb, then tell us that.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The Soviet Socialism failed, while the Chinese Socialism will be proved to be superior by the history.

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## EastSea

cnleio said:


> I must say these Vietnamese members lack basic knowledge of WWII history.
> 
> All dreaming data from Vietnam.
> 
> 
> Red Army soldiers kill 1,000,000 Japanese soldiers in Manchuria of WWII ?
> 
> Japan Kwantung Army in Manchuria
> 
> 
> Nexttime, try to say Soviet Union defeat 1,000,000,000 Japanese soldiers.
> 
> 
> 
> Read 《Declaration by United Nations》again.
> 
> Let me show ur fantastic guys, what 1945 《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1)* PROCLAMATION DEFINING TERMS FOR JAPANESE SURRENDER*
> 
> 
> *(2) OFFER OF SURRENDER FROM JAPANESE GOVERNMENT*
> 
> *(3) JAPANESE ACCEPTANCE OF POTSDAM DECLARTION*
> 
> 
> *(6) INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER*
> 
> 
> 
> *(7) Translation of Emperor Hirohito's Receipt of the Surrender documents*
> 
> 
> 
> *(8) INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER of the Japanese and Japanese-Controlled Armed Forces in the Philippine Islands to the Commanding General United States Army Forces, Western Pacific*
> 
> 
> etc...
> 
> The loser of WWII signing the Instrument of Surrender on behalf of the Japanese Government, formally ending World War II. 《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * China is the WINNER of WWII*, it's defined by International Laws came from 《Declaration by United Nations》,《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》, BIG FOUR of anti-fascist Allies, 1941-1945 WWII Allies Declarations.
> 
> *Compared with China did in WWII and defeat Japs, Vietnam is ZERO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



You troll and troll too much.

Japan was surrender because two nukes were dropped in Japan.






Atomic bomb mushroom clouds over Hiroshima _(left)_ and Nagasaki _(right)
_
and Soviet Union Army defeated Guandong Army of Japan in Manchuria.






Without intervention of USA and Soviet Union in WW II, what should happens to China ? New Japan Emperor should be ruler in North and East land of China, like Mongolian and Manchurian did in the past in China ?

The rest of land china's should shared between CPC and KMT.

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## yue10

Rechoice said:


> we are still here, bro.
> 
> The matter is that we don't let such brainwashed idiot chinese lie here and troll about us without responses.


why the you keep talking to yourself


cnleio said:


> Okay. I didn't wanna hurt ur members' feeling, just correct ur ppl's mistake about China in WWII.
> 
> Some craps like China did nothing in WWII or China didn't defeat Japs from Vietnamese mouth, i had provided the prove from past WWII official documents and Japanese surrender. China is the true WINNER.


be honest and just said Chinese are a massive joke  
1938 Yellow River flood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1938 Changsha Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as for the funny Annam race worship the Jap, i don't want to have to keep repeating myself but the Jap were just use your dumping ground of a country + Indochina as leverage for negotiation with US to allow them keep their Chinese holdings and continued oil supply, too bad the white man was hungry for war, refused and got Pearl Harbour


----------



## cnleio

EastSea said:


> You troll and troll too much.
> 
> Japan was surrender because two nukes were dropped in Japan.
> 
> and Soviet Union Army defeated Guandong Army of Japan in Manchuria.


Keep trolling China, kid.

World War II


> World War II altered the political alignment and social structure of the world. The United Nations (UN) was established to foster international co-operation and prevent future conflicts. The great powers that were the victors of the war—the United States, the Soviet Union, China, the United Kingdom, and France—became the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council.



China in World War II


> The Chinese were fighting the Japanese long before WWII began. They were split into the Kuomingtong led byChiang Kai Shek and the Communists under Mao who also fought each other as well.
> 
> NE China (Manchukuo) was a Japanese controlled puppet state and Japan invaded it around 1937. The Japanese also went south and fought for control much of China's coastal regions where most of its major cities were. Western China was mostly rural and deserts and mountains so Japan didn't have much need to invade inland.
> 
> China tied up millions of Japanese troops which helped the WWII effort in the Pacific and SE Asia. Though China's armies were dysfunctional with inept leadership and infighting, it helped win the war.













EastSea said:


> Without intervention of USA and Soviet Union in WW II, what should happens to China ? New Japan Emperor should be ruler in North and East land of China, like Mongolian and Manchurian did in the past in China ?
> 
> The rest of land china's should shared between CPC and KMT.


Without USA and Soviet Union's help Chinese still fight there to against Japan. The Japs lack enough power and time to occupy whole China, if they can Japs didn't attack South and occupy ur Vietnam and other South Asia countries.

Without USA and Soviet Union's helps, it would take a long time for Chinese to defeat Japs not just 1941-1945. In WWII China Battlefield, millions of Chinese soldiers using Allied weapons fight with Japs and China government even sent a Army into Burma to help British to against Japan Army.

We(Chinese) fought until the victory of WWII, not like other slaver country.


*Once again:*
* *China is the WINNER of WWII, it's defined by International Laws came from 《Declaration by United Nations》,《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》, BIG FOUR of anti-fascist Allies, 1941-1945 WWII Allies Declarations.



yue10 said:


> be honest and just said Chinese are a massive joke
> 1938 Yellow River flood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 1938 Changsha Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> as for the funny Annam race worship the Jap, i don't want to have to keep repeating myself but the Jap were just use your dumping ground of a country + Indochina as leverage for negotiation with US to allow them keep their Chinese holdings and continued oil supply, too bad the white man was hungry for war, refused and got Pearl Harbour


LOL, here got a Vietnamese Nazi. The loser of WWII like Japan, still a DOG country. Once the U.N existing, they never has a chance to turn over.

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## Viet

cnleio said:


> LOL, here got a Vietnamese Nazi. The loser of WWII like Japan, still a *DOG* country. Once the U.N existing, they never has a chance to turn over.


yue10 is not a Viet, he trolls, trolls and trolls....

as for your remark "a dog country", if VN becomes as rich and powerful as Japan, I don´t have any objection to be called a dog. but pls call us MIGHTY dog. LOL

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## Viet

_A Japanese naval officer surrenders his sword to a British Lieutenant in Saigon on 13th September 1945._


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## yue10

cnleio said:


> LOL, here got a Vietnamese Nazi. The loser of WWII like Japan, still a DOG country. Once the U.N existing, they never has a chance to turn over.


what wrong with Nazi?
a toast to our Japan...ese master, do you love them like me? 




Fuhrer, on Facebook I heard you arrr raised by Chinarrr foster parent, is it true? 




friends, the Chinaman race is very weak let me white man Nazi take care of them 





Mr White I am love you 





i could not disagree with your dog comment brother Chinese, that is perfect word for their race
'If we Indians could only spit in unison, we would form a puddle big enough to drown 300000 Englishmen', i don't if it's true quote but it is a weak mentality the Viet share with their India 'friends'







Viet said:


> yue10 is not a Viet, he trolls, trolls and trolls....
> 
> as for your remark "a dog country", if VN becomes as rich and powerful as Japan, I don´t have any objection to be called a dog. but pls call us MIGHTY dog. LOL


your country are too late to the party to become a rich country airhead brain, learn some common sense and economic for once

also I am 100% as Viets blood, do not say otherwise, wmy anti communist Annam friend it is good for you to change username as phan quoc not as 'Viet' ok


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## Fsjal

yue10 said:


> what wrong with Nazi?
> a toast to our Japan...ese master, do you love them like me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuhrer, on Facebook I heard you arrr raised by Chinarrr foster parent, is it true?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> friends, the Chinaman race is very weak let me white man Nazi take care of them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr White I am love you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i could not disagree with your dog comment brother Chinese, that is perfect word for their race
> 'If we Indians could only spit in unison, we would form a puddle big enough to drown 300000 Englishmen', i don't if it's true quote but it is a weak mentality the Viet share with their India 'friends'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> your country are too late to the party to become a rich country airhead brain, learn some common sense and economic for once
> 
> also I am 100% as Viets blood, do not say otherwise, wmy anti communist Annam friend it is good for you to change username as phan quoc not as 'Viet' ok



Right-wing fascists scums like you have a special place in hell, my "friend." ("friend" my ***)


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## yue10

Fsjal said:


> Right-wing fascists scums like you have a special place in hell, my "friend." ("friend" my ***)


what's wrong with fascism my Chinese amigo?





wherever brother China go little VN follow 






what a shame 
Blue Shirts Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## cnleio

@yue10 u talk like a Nazi.

Well i know u living in the West Europe, without our attention the white racists will treat u very "well".


Nazism and race



> The Nazis claimed to scientifically measure a strict hierarchy of human race; the "master race" was said to be the most pure stock of the Aryan race, which was narrowly defined by the Nazis as being identical with the Nordic race, followed by other sub-races of the Aryan race.
> 
> At the bottom of this hierarchy were "parasitic" races (of non-"Aryan" origin) or "_Untermenschen_" ("sub-humans"), which were perceived to be dangerous to society. In Nazi literature, the term 'Untermensch' was applied to the Slavs (even though the Slavs had been normally regarded by non-Nazis as one of the sub-races of the Aryan race), especially including Russians, Serbs and ethnic Poles.
> 
> At the bottom of the racial scale of non-Aryans were Jews, Romani, and blacks.


@yue10, it seems ur skin beyond the bottom of slave. I think the Nazi will throw u into the gass room, if there's WWII happen again.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Soviet Socialism failed, while the *Chinese Socialism* will be proved to be superior by the history.


can you reveal me the secrets of Chinese Socialism?
I know Chinese are hard core capitalists, more than the Americans or Germans.


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## terranMarine

What you Vietcongs don't seem to understand is no army can occupy the massive land called China. Even the Nazi couldn't handle Soviet Union. Millions of Russians died just like the sacrifices made by China. Even the Russians will not deny they got some help from mother nature when the unusual harsh winter arrived and the tide shifted to the Russian side making it much more difficult for the Nazi soldiers to push their advances further. 

Battle of Moscow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Luftwaffe was paralysed in the second half of December. The weather, recorded as −42 °C (–44 °F), was a meteorological record.[77] Logistical difficulties and freezing temperatures created technical difficulties until January 1942.

China still had plenty of troops and capable fighting the Japs, instead of waiting to be liberated such as Vietnam (hardly contributed anything against the Japs), Chinese kept on fighting the invaders, went to Burma aiding the Indians, send some troops to India for training as well. Yes if the Japs didn't attack the Americans they might or might not have conquered India, the war would have continued much longer. History books only mention how the Chinese, Indians, Russians, British, Americans and the rest of the allied forces fought and hardly mention anything about the Viets. Liberation is only for those countries who had surrendered, and China didn't surrender.

Go check what Viet's contribution was to the war
Japanese invasion of French Indochina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## EastSea

cnleio said:


> Keep trolling China, kid.
> 
> World War II
> 
> 
> China in World War II
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Without USA and Soviet Union's help Chinese still fight there to against Japan. The Japs lack enough power and time to occupy whole China, if they can Japs didn't attack South and occupy ur Vietnam and other South Asia countries.
> 
> Without USA and Soviet Union's helps, it would take a long time for Chinese to defeat Japs not just 1941-1945. In WWII China Battlefield, millions of Chinese soldiers using Allied weapons fight with Japs and China government even sent a Army into Burma to help British to against Japan Army.
> 
> We(Chinese) fought until the victory of WWII, not like other slaver country.
> 
> 
> *Once again:*
> * *China is the WINNER of WWII, it's defined by International Laws came from 《Declaration by United Nations》,《THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS - WWII》, BIG FOUR of anti-fascist Allies, 1941-1945 WWII Allies Declarations.
> 
> 
> LOL, here got a Vietnamese Nazi. The loser of WWII like Japan, still a DOG country. Once the U.N existing, they never has a chance to turn over.





> World War II altered the political alignment and social structure of the world. The United Nations(UN) was established to foster international co-operation and prevent future conflicts. The great powers that were the victors of the war—the United States, the Soviet Union, *China,* the United Kingdom, and *France—became the permanent members* of the United Nations Security Council.



North Land of China is liberated by Soviet Union.
France is liberated by USA, Britain ...

Its truth of WW II.



terranMarine said:


> What you Vietcongs don't seem to understand *is no army can occupy the massive land called China*. Even the Nazi couldn't handle Soviet Union. Millions of Russians died just like the sacrifices made by China. Even the Russians will not deny they got some help from mother nature when the unusual harsh winter arrived and the tide shifted to the Russian side making it much more difficult for the Nazi soldiers to push their advances further.
> 
> Battle of Moscow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> The Luftwaffe was paralysed in the second half of December. The weather, recorded as −42 °C (–44 °F), was a meteorological record.[77] Logistical difficulties and freezing temperatures created technical difficulties until January 1942.
> 
> China still had plenty of troops and capable fighting the Japs, instead of waiting to be liberated such as Vietnam (hardly contributed anything against the Japs), Chinese kept on fighting the invaders, went to Burma aiding the Indians, send some troops to India for training as well. Yes if the Japs didn't attack the Americans they might or might not have conquered India, the war would have continued much longer. History books only mention how the Chinese, Indians, Russians, British, Americans and the rest of the allied forces fought and hardly mention anything about the Viets. Liberation is only for those countries who had surrendered, and China didn't surrender.
> 
> Go check what Viet's contribution was to the war
> Japanese invasion of French Indochina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



China was ocoupied by Mongolian and Manchurian, and they ruled China in the past.

Ho Chi Minh decrared Independence of Vietnam on 2th September 1945 and he was elected as first President of modern Vietnam.


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## NiceGuy

terranMarine said:


> What you Vietcongs don't seem to understand is no army can occupy the massive land called China.


Bcz ur most of land is polluted,poor resources, small oil field with lots of desert , even Chinese also dont wanna live in China's mainland, so let alone the foreigners.


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## EastSea

self deleted


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## Fsjal

NiceGuy said:


> Bcz ur most of land is polluted,poor resources, small oil field with lots of desert , even Chinese also dont wanna live in China's mainland, so let alone the foreigners.


Poor resources?

You must be that stupid. China has much more resources than your filthy backwards nation.


----------



## yue10

cnleio said:


> @yue10 u talk like a Nazi.
> Well i know u living in the West Europe, without our attention the white racists will treat u very "well".


i talk like a Nazi? who said that below because it wasn't me


cnleio said:


> IN THIS WORLD, natural selection and survival of the fittest.


@yue10, it seems ur skin beyond the bottom of slave. I think the Nazi will throw u into the gass room, if there's WWII happen again. [/quote]
my skin the same as yours what's your problem? anyway you got all information wrong my Chinese friend, here is truth


> *Pride in one's own race -- and that does not imply contempt for other races -- is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or Japanese as being inferior to ourselves.* They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them.



your Chinese race is too simple does not have superior mentality to know what is truth, all you need to know is when the white man and his globalist mentality tried so hard to push a certain agenda you know something is not right, example is the dude just died in South Africa, there was so much worship of the man as hero you know something is wrong, same apply here, why the free society want to place censorship on Holocaust and the world push so hard against Nazi?
Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Viet said:


> can you reveal me the secrets of Chinese Socialism?
> I know Chinese are hard core capitalists, more than the Americans or Germans.


i don't think you know what is the meaning of capitalism


terranMarine said:


> What you Vietcongs don't seem to understand is no army can occupy the massive land called China. Even the Nazi couldn't handle Soviet Union. Millions of Russians died just like the sacrifices made by China. Even the Russians will not deny they got some help from mother nature when the unusual harsh winter arrived and the tide shifted to the Russian side making it much more difficult for the Nazi soldiers to push their advances further.
> Battle of Moscow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> The Luftwaffe was paralysed in the second half of December. The weather, recorded as −42 °C (–44 °F), was a meteorological record.[77] Logistical difficulties and freezing temperatures created technical difficulties until January 1942.
> China still had plenty of troops and capable fighting the Japs, instead of waiting to be liberated such as Vietnam (hardly contributed anything against the Japs), Chinese kept on fighting the invaders, went to Burma aiding the Indians, send some troops to India for training as well. Yes if the Japs didn't attack the Americans they might or might not have conquered India, the war would have continued much longer. History books only mention how the Chinese, Indians, Russians, British, Americans and the rest of the allied forces fought and hardly mention anything about the Viets. Liberation is only for those countries who had surrendered, and China didn't surrender.
> 
> Go check what Viet's contribution was to the war
> Japanese invasion of French Indochina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



the Vietcong sold their own country to French



> Ho declares himself president of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and pursues American recognition but is repeatedly ignored by President Harry Truman.
> 
> Before Japan surrendered to the USA, Ho Chi Minh worked with OSS (Office of Strategic Services), a US intelligence agency. He built up Viet-Minh forces. *After Japan surrendered, Japanese forces were still in control of Indochina. They could have crushed Viet Minh forces easily had Bao Dai and Tran Trong Kim requested them to do so.* However, King Bao-Dai agreed to transfer his power to Viet Minh because he thought that Ho Chi Minh was working with the USA, and could guarantee independence for Vietnam. On August 19, 1945, at a spontaneous non-communist meeting in Hanoi, Ho and his men stole the leading role to seize power and on September 2, he delivered his Declaration of Independence.
> 
> To show his welcome to the arrival of French Special Envoy Sainteny and French military units coming under the March 6 Agreement, Ho Chi Minh instructed people to display flags. Ho showed to the French that people appreciated their coming back..
> 
> Richard Nixon, in No More Vietnam, wrote: "While nationalist groups refused to cooperate with the French, *the communist Viet Minh chose to collaborate with the French. *Ho signed the so-called March 6 agreement that brought the French army back into Northern Vietnam. *His greetings were effused 'I love France and French solders. You are welcome. You are heroes.' *Some say Ho compromised with the French to force the Nationalist Chinese to withdraw. But one week earlier, China had pledged to remove its army in a separate agreement with France. As to the real motivation of the communists, Ho's right-hand man, Le Duan, later said it was to 'wipe out the reactionaries.' For the Viet Minh, this included all nationalists."
> 
> Ho and the French together massacred hundreds of leaders and thousands of rank-and-file members of various nationalist groups. The French gave the Viet Minh military equipment, troops and even artillery support to carry this out. In July 1946, Ho's forces stormed the headquarters of all the remaining nationalist groups while French armored personnel carriers cordoned off surrounding areas. Most of the few remaining opposition leaders were arrested and later killed. (No More Vietnam, Richard Nixon, page 34, 35)


----------



## Snomannen

terranMarine said:


> What you Vietcongs don't seem to understand is no army can occupy the massive land called China. Even the Nazi couldn't handle Soviet Union. Millions of Russians died just like the sacrifices made by China. Even the Russians will not deny they got some help from mother nature when the unusual harsh winter arrived and the tide shifted to the Russian side making it much more difficult for the Nazi soldiers to push their advances further.
> 
> Battle of Moscow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> The Luftwaffe was paralysed in the second half of December. The weather, recorded as −42 °C (–44 °F), was a meteorological record.[77] Logistical difficulties and freezing temperatures created technical difficulties until January 1942.
> 
> China still had plenty of troops and capable fighting the Japs, instead of waiting to be liberated such as Vietnam (hardly contributed anything against the Japs), Chinese kept on fighting the invaders, went to Burma aiding the Indians, send some troops to India for training as well. Yes if the Japs didn't attack the Americans they might or might not have conquered India, the war would have continued much longer. History books only mention how the Chinese, Indians, Russians, British, Americans and the rest of the allied forces fought and hardly mention anything about the Viets. Liberation is only for those countries who had surrendered, and China didn't surrender.
> 
> Go check what Viet's contribution was to the war
> Japanese invasion of French Indochina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I just can't understand how some people's brain work.
They dare to laugh at China -the winner and the freedom fighter of the WW2, which has contributed and sacrificed a lot to defeat the Axis, while some "country" was not even a independent region and has done nothing but bowed down to their new master as soon as possible during the WW2.

And they can never understand the fact of no matter which Chinese ethnics rule China, Han, Manchurian, Mongolian and even Tibetan, they are all Chinese ruling Chinese. Yet French never consider themselves as Vietnamese and their ancestor were Vietnamese as well.


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> i talk like a Nazi? who said that below because it wasn't me
> 
> i don't think you know what is the meaning of capitalism
> 
> the Vietcong sold their own country to French


hmmmm...I recommended you moron to go to a zoo and enterain the penguins, why don´t you listen to me? you are simply a retard.



Fsjal said:


> Poor resources?
> You must be that stupid. China has much more resources than your filthy backwards nation.


take care of your country as I don´t need to tell you that the Philippines is a mess. Here US$778,302 were raised in two donation concerts in Vietnam recently for the flood victims in the Philippines.

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## terranMarine

KirovAirship said:


> I just can't understand how some people's brain work.
> They dare to laugh at China -the winner and the freedom fighter of the WW2, which has contributed and sacrificed a lot to defeat the Axis, while some "country" was not even a independent region and has done nothing but bowed down to their new master as soon as possible during the WW2.
> 
> And they can never understand the fact of no matter which Chinese ethnics rule China, Han, Manchurian, Mongolian and even Tibetan, they are all Chinese ruling Chinese. Yet French never consider themselves as Vietnamese and their ancestor were Vietnamese as well.



Boasting how the Viets had defeated the Mongolians are what they do best here, when the French came these supa powa Viets let the French rule them. What happened to the mighty Viets that fought against the aggressive Mongolian Empire? Then the Japs came, the French surrendered and the Viets didn't do much against the Japs. In fact 1-2 million Viets starved to death because their food went to the Japs. So much for the super strong Viets that once defeated the Mongolians but couldn't do shit against the French and the Japs. To make things even funnier these Macacas are spreading lies of China being liberated. Excuse me but since when did China surrender to the Japs? The Viets should thank the Americans for liberating IndoChina instead. No country and no history books will claim the Viets contributed to the defeat of Imperial Japan. These guys are pissed Vietnam didn't do shit while Chinese literally fought as hard as the Russians during WW2.


----------



## Viet

terranMarine said:


> Boasting how the Viets had defeated the Mongolians are what they do best here, when the French came these supa powa Viets let the French rule them. *What happened to the mighty Viets that fought against the aggressive Mongolian Empire?*
> 
> Then the Japs came, the French surrendered and the Viets didn't do much against the Japs. In fact 1-2 million Viets starved to death because their food went to the Japs. So much for the super strong Viets that once defeated the Mongolians but couldn't do shit against the French and the Japs. To make things even funnier these Macacas are spreading lies of China being liberated. Excuse me but since when did China surrender to the Japs? The Viets should thank the Americans for liberating IndoChina instead. No country and no history books will claim the Viets contributed to the defeat of Imperial Japan. These guys are pissed Vietnam didn't do shit while Chinese literally fought as hard as the Russians during WW2.


Well, the French needed 8 years to conquer South Vietnam and another 16 years to take whole Vietnam under control. The Vietnamese resistance lasted for 24 years! Isn´t nothing?

Remember, thanks to Chinese model, Vietnam was a weak and backward country when France arrived. If Vietnam followed the Japanese model, the history would have taken another path.

As for contribution to the WWII, actually the main goal of Vietnam was to re-gain independence and got rid off from the French. After Vietnam sided with Japan, they returned to us the full sovereignty. Unfortunately for the Japanese, their defeat came quicker than Vietnam could have provided them support in fighting the Americans, the British and the Chinese. 

Vietnam had to choose between the devils.

Vietnam :: The conquest of Vietnam by France -- Encyclopedia Britannica

*The conquest of Vietnam by France*

_The decision to invade Vietnam was made by __Napoleon III__ in July 1857. It was the result not only of missionary propaganda but also, after 1850, of the upsurge of French capitalism, which generated the need for overseas markets and the desire for a larger French share of the Asian territories conquered by the West. The naval commander in East Asia, __Rigault de Genouilly__, long an advocate of French military action against Vietnam, was ordered to attack the harbour and city of Tourane (__Da Nang__) and to turn it into a French military base. Genouilly arrived at Tourane in August 1858 with 14 vessels and 2,500 men; the French stormed the harbour defenses on September 1 and occupied the town a day later. Genouilly soon recognized, however, that he could make no further progress around Tourane and decided to attack Saigon. Leaving a small garrison behind to hold Tourane, he sailed southward in February 1859 and seized Saigon two weeks later._

_Vietnamese resistance prevented the French from advancing beyond Saigon, and it took French troops, under new command, until 1861 to occupy the three adjacent provinces. The Vietnamese, unable to mount effective resistance to the invaders and their advanced weapons, concluded a peace treaty in June 1862, which ceded the conquered territories to France. Five years later additional territories in the south were placed under French rule. The entire colony was named __Cochinchina__._

_It had taken the French slightly more than eight years to make themselves masters of Cochinchina (a protectorate already had been imposed on __Cambodia__ in 1863). It took them 16 more years to extend their control over the rest of the country. They made a first attempt to enter the Red River delta in 1873, after a French naval officer and explorer named __Francis Garnier__ had shown, in a hazardous expedition, that the Mekong River could not serve as a trade route into southwestern China. Garnier had some support from the French governor of Cochinchina, but when he was killed in a battle with Chinese pirates near Hanoi, the attempt to conquer the north collapsed._

_Within a decade, France had returned to the challenge. In April 1882, with the blessing of Paris, the administration at Saigon sent a force of 250 men to Hanoi under Capt. __Red River delta__. In August 1883 the Vietnamese court signed a treaty that turned northern Vietnam (named __Tonkin__ by the French) and central Vietnam (named __Annam__, based on an early Chinese name for the region) into French protectorates. Ten years later the French annexed Laos and added it to the so-called __Tonkin__, Cambodia, and __Laos__._


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## yue10

Viet said:


> hmmmm...I recommended you moron to go to a zoo and enterain the penguins, why don´t you listen to me? you are simply a retard.
> 
> take care of your country as I don´t need to tell you that the Philippines is a mess. Here US$778,302 were raised in two donation concerts in Vietnam recently for the flood victims in the Philippines.


why should i listen to you? your race is a joke, in all my 1 year trolling career I only met one Viet was superior mentality, many was way more knowledgeable than me but their brain was worked quite unusually



> If we wanted to, we could destroy your dynasty root and branch and seize for ourselves the entire kingdom, as we have done in Cochinchina. You know very well that this would present no difficulty to our armies … You are completely at our mercy. We have the power to seize and destroy your capital and to starve you all to death. It is up to you to choose between war and peace. We do not wish to conquer you, but you must accept our protectorate. For your people it is a guarantee of peace and prosperity. For your government and your court, it is the only chance of survival. We give you 48 hours to accept or reject, in their entirety and without discussion, the terms which we are magnanimously offering you. We believe that there is nothing in them dishonourable to you, and if they are carried out with sincerity on both sides they will bring happiness to the people of Annam. But if you reject them, you can expect to suffer the most terrible of misfortunes … The empire of Annam, its royal dynasty and its princes and court will have voted for their own extinction. The very name of Vietnam will be erased from history.


......


----------



## Viet

@Fsjal 
...and before you continue licking Chinese boots and bashing Vietnam, you can say "Thank You" for the $400,000 donation from overseas Vietnamese.

Ex-Vietnam refugees pay 'debt' to PHL, donate $400k for Yolanda relief | News | GMA News Online


----------



## Snomannen

Viet said:


> Well, the French needed 8 years to conquer South Vietnam and another 16 years to take whole Vietnam under control. The Vietnamese resistance lasted for 24 years! Isn´t nothing?
> 
> Remember, thanks to Chinese model, Vietnam was a weak and backward country when France arrived. If Vietnam followed the Japanese model, the history would have taken another path.
> 
> As for contribution to the WWII, actually the main goal of Vietnam was to re-gain independence and got rid off from the French. After Vietnam sided with Japan, they returned to us the full sovereignty. Unfortunately for the Japanese, their defeat came quicker than Vietnam could have provided them support in fighting the Americans, the British and the Chinese.
> 
> Vietnam had to choose between the devils.
> 
> Vietnam :: The conquest of Vietnam by France -- Encyclopedia Britannica
> 
> *The conquest of Vietnam by France*
> 
> _The decision to invade Vietnam was made by __Napoleon III__ in July 1857. It was the result not only of missionary propaganda but also, after 1850, of the upsurge of French capitalism, which generated the need for overseas markets and the desire for a larger French share of the Asian territories conquered by the West. The naval commander in East Asia, __Rigault de Genouilly__, long an advocate of French military action against Vietnam, was ordered to attack the harbour and city of Tourane (__Da Nang__) and to turn it into a French military base. Genouilly arrived at Tourane in August 1858 with 14 vessels and 2,500 men; the French stormed the harbour defenses on September 1 and occupied the town a day later. Genouilly soon recognized, however, that he could make no further progress around Tourane and decided to attack Saigon. Leaving a small garrison behind to hold Tourane, he sailed southward in February 1859 and seized Saigon two weeks later._
> 
> _Vietnamese resistance prevented the French from advancing beyond Saigon, and it took French troops, under new command, until 1861 to occupy the three adjacent provinces. The Vietnamese, unable to mount effective resistance to the invaders and their advanced weapons, concluded a peace treaty in June 1862, which ceded the conquered territories to France. Five years later additional territories in the south were placed under French rule. The entire colony was named __Cochinchina__._
> 
> _It had taken the French slightly more than eight years to make themselves masters of Cochinchina (a protectorate already had been imposed on __Cambodia__ in 1863). It took them 16 more years to extend their control over the rest of the country. They made a first attempt to enter the Red River delta in 1873, after a French naval officer and explorer named __Francis Garnier__ had shown, in a hazardous expedition, that the Mekong River could not serve as a trade route into southwestern China. Garnier had some support from the French governor of Cochinchina, but when he was killed in a battle with Chinese pirates near Hanoi, the attempt to conquer the north collapsed._
> 
> _Within a decade, France had returned to the challenge. In April 1882, with the blessing of Paris, the administration at Saigon sent a force of 250 men to Hanoi under Capt. __Red River delta__. In August 1883 the Vietnamese court signed a treaty that turned northern Vietnam (named __Tonkin__ by the French) and central Vietnam (named __Annam__, based on an early Chinese name for the region) into French protectorates. Ten years later the French annexed Laos and added it to the so-called __Tonkin__, Cambodia, and __Laos__._



Well as I always say that Vietnam is no doubt a lil' chili in many times in the history, if you know what I mean~

and Hey~ don't "thank" the Chinese model, the Qing Dynasty didn't end up like other bug counties like Mughal and Ottoman. If Vietnam really adopted the true Chinese model, you would have at least ended up like Thailand. 
Besides Japanese society system (I can provide more detail if you wanna know) was different from most of the countries, this is one of the main factor that they can change their country smoothly, unlike China which was a huge country with a complex society system which has to take more time to change itself to meet the western style.


----------



## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Well as I always say that Vietnam is no doubt a lil' chili in many times in the history, if you know what I mean~
> 
> and Hey, don't "thank" the Chinese model, the Qing Dynasty didn't end up like other bug counties like Mughal and Ottoman. If Vietnam really adopted the true Chinese model, you would have at least ended up like Thailand.
> Besides Japanese society system (I can provide more detail if you wanna know) was different from most of the countries, this is one of the main factor that they can change their country smoothly, unlike China which was a huge country with a complex society system which has to take more time to change itself to meet the western style.


Vietnam navy was weak and less advanced than French warships, when it came to naval battles.
*VN warships *





*French warships*





As for Japanese model, at the beginning of the last century there was a Vietnamese movement serious thinking of adopting the Japanese. We took notice of Japanese victories over China and Russia. We said "WOW", an Asian nation here Japan defeated a much mightier enemies including a European nation here Russia.

What happened was Vietnamese resistance groups secretly sent a number of students to Japan to learn. When the French noticed, they tried to stop. The rest is history, when Japan surrendered, Ho Chi Minh turned to Mao Zedong, and Chinese model.


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## Rechoice

yue10 said:


> why should i listen to you? your race is a joke, in all my *1 year trolling career I only met one Viet was superior mentality,* many was way more knowledgeable than me but their brain was worked quite unusually
> 
> 
> ......



Who is that guy, can you disclose his nick ?.

I think, your nick is "yuenan" troll on other forum.


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## BoQ77

These events have the gap about 6 centuries. As you know, every country has some weak phase
we know we are weak, but we always try to liberate our country.

You accept Mongols as your Emperor, that's a back step.

The communism in China also weak at the beginning, so is the Vietnam communism.









terranMarine said:


> Boasting how the Viets had defeated the Mongolians are what they do best here, when the French came these supa powa Viets let the French rule them. What happened to the mighty Viets that fought against the aggressive Mongolian Empire? Then the Japs came, the French surrendered and the Viets didn't do much against the Japs. In fact 1-2 million Viets starved to death because their food went to the Japs. So much for the super strong Viets that once defeated the Mongolians but couldn't do shit against the French and the Japs. To make things even funnier these Macacas are spreading lies of China being liberated. Excuse me but since when did China surrender to the Japs? The Viets should thank the Americans for liberating IndoChina instead. No country and no history books will claim the Viets contributed to the defeat of Imperial Japan. These guys are pissed Vietnam didn't do shit while Chinese literally fought as hard as the Russians during WW2.


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## Snomannen

BoQ77 said:


> These events have the gap about 6 centuries. As you know, every country has some weak phase
> we know we are weak, but we always try to liberate our country.
> 
> You accept Mongols as your Emperor, that's a back step.
> 
> The communism in China also weak at the beginning, so is the Vietnam communism.


Indian accept Mughal is their dynasty, is this a "back step". 
British people accept William the Conqueror as their King, was that a "back step".
Some of you people consider CHINESE 南越國 Nam Tue (Viet) is a Vietnamese dynasty, now that is really a "back step".


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## BoQ77

We consider it as invasion of our land

That's land of Baiyue

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Snomannen

BoQ77 said:


> We consider it as invasion of our land
> 
> That's land of Baiyue


Baiyue is China.


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## yue10

> Ngo Si Lien, when his turn came, he took the version of Ban Co. *Again word by word he copied the Chinese text.* He added, however, another omission, small in appearance, but loaded with historical meaning. He left out three characters that are translated into ‘gradually he used lawful disguises’. To take the Vietnamese historian’s text, the sentence should be; ‘At that, he eliminated the officials appointed by the Tan…’. Thus, Trieu Da appears to be cruel and no politician at all
> 
> *These tales involved far-away peoples and immemorial times concerning the nation, why not use them to make Dai Viet great and Le Thanh tong glorious? *A great nation bespeaks a great king, and a great nation is great when its area is immense and its past distant. With all that in mind, Ngo Si Lien compiled his Complete History, in which fairies and ghosts were as real as human beings. He was very successful.



Viets history belong to different ethnic root



Rechoice said:


> Who is that guy, can you disclose his nick ?.
> 
> I think, your nick is "yuenan" troll on other forum.


I think, your nick is "RaiseoftheNegrito" troll on other forum.


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> why should i listen to you? *your race is a joke*, in all my 1 year trolling career I only met one Viet was superior mentality, many was way more knowledgeable than me but their brain was worked quite unusually
> 
> 
> ......


what race are you? You claim you are a Viet, aren´t you? so you are a joke, too? 
here is a famous film on Vietnam during the French occupation


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## BoQ77

Mr. Kerry says Hi to Vietnam


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## Grand Historian

After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.

I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.

1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.



1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).

If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?

Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.


2.This question is the definition of asinine.

From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.

There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.

So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?


3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.

Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.

They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.

Some reading for those interested.
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf


4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.

If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)

For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han

However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.

In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.

雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）

King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.

To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.

If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.

The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog


In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.


5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.

Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.

There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.


As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.

My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## ChineseTiger1986

Grand Historian said:


> After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.
> 
> I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.
> 
> 1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
> 2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
> 3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
> 4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
> 5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).
> 
> If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?
> 
> Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
> Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation
> 
> Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.
> 
> 
> 2.This question is the definition of asinine.
> 
> From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.
> 
> There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.
> 
> So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?
> 
> 
> 3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.
> 
> Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.
> 
> They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
> however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.
> 
> Some reading for those interested.
> http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
> http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf
> 
> 
> 4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.
> 
> If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)
> 
> For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han
> 
> However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.
> 
> In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.
> 
> 雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）
> 
> King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.
> 
> To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.
> 
> If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.
> 
> The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
> 
> 
> In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.
> 
> 
> 5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.
> 
> Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.
> 
> There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.
> 
> 
> As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.
> 
> My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam



You are welcomed, and thank you for making a fair comment for China's history.

You have to know that it is unfortunate for China being surrounded by a bunch of greedy monkeys.


----------



## BoQ77

You drove out of the subject

The history of Vietnam is history of fighting and defeating the invaders almost from Northern.
Stand tall at the last one.


----------



## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the* inferiority complex* of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.
> I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.
> 
> 1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
> 2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
> 3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
> 4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
> 5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).
> 
> If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?
> 
> Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
> Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation
> 
> Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.
> 
> 
> 2.This question is the definition of asinine.
> 
> From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.
> 
> There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.
> 
> So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?
> 
> 
> 3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.
> 
> Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.
> 
> They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
> however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.
> 
> Some reading for those interested.
> http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
> http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf
> 
> 
> 4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.
> 
> If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)
> 
> For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han
> 
> However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.
> 
> In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.
> 
> 雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）
> 
> King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.
> 
> To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.
> 
> If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.
> 
> The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
> 
> In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.
> 
> 5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.
> 
> Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.
> 
> There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.
> 
> 
> As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.
> 
> My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam


lol welcome to the forum, to your very first post

actually your questions, answers and statements are more or less well treated in the thread already. I just want to cover one point: Hung Kings.

Sure, the existence of Hung Kings is very disputed as it lacks of historical evidence. Every Viet school kid knows it is a sage, myth or fairy tale, rather than reality. Unless someone believes to the story of 100 eggs from Au Co, the immortal mountain fairy.







for someone, who is not aware of the story:

Hung King festivals | Vietnam Country
*Legend associated with the Hung Kings*

For a long time ago, Lac Long Quan (King Dragon of the land of Lac) had power strength; he wanted to live near water. He succeeded to the throne of his father, and governed the Lac-Viet tribe. One day, the King of the Northern tribe, De Lai with his daughter had a visit to the South.





De Lai married Au Co to Lac Long Quan as admiring Lac Long Quan’s talent. Au Co gave birth to a membranous sac. The sac became bigger and bigger, and burst on the seventh day. Surprisingly, there have one hundred eggs in the sac which hatched into one hundred cute babies. 

They are the ancestors of Vietnam, so the Vietnamese are regarded as the “Dragon and Fairy descendants” The eldest son of Lac Long Quan was the King Hung I. After establishing himself realm at Phong Chau, now the Southern part of Phu Tho Province whose realm was made up by 50 tribes, The 18 Hung kings then ruled the country from 2879 to 258BC.





According to history records, the Hung King’s regime was very healthy and stable, starting for setting up Viet Nam as a sovereign nation. The Hung King’s 18 generations saw development of a nation with the features as the sense of community, mutual affection, patriotism and unwillingness to yield to oppression. 

From this initial settlement, the Hong River (Red river) civilization and the pre-Dong Son cultures developed. To commemorate the anniversary of Vietnamese people ancestor death, they hold a festival nationwide on the 10th day of the third lunar month, founder of the Vietnamese nation – the first Hung King.

*Hung King Anniversary *




Annually from the 8th to the 11st of the third lunar month, Vietnamese people holds Hung King anniversary. On the 10th of the third lunar March, is the main festival day, on which Vietnamese working people have one more national holiday to mark the anniversary of the Hung King’s death. Every year, on this traditional occasion, Vietnamese people worldwide join their brothers and sisters in spirit to observe Vietnam National Day in commemoration of their ancestors. Hung temple on Nghia Linh Moutain in Phong Chau District, Phu Tho Province is the main place to hold the main ceremony.





*Let’s contemplate this historical vestige! *
The Hung Temple is located on the top of the 175 meter – high Nghia Linh mountain. It is an ancient and sacred architectural. The festival is one of the chances for Vietnamese to visit their land of origin. In the festival days, flags are to be hung across the road leading from Viet Tri to Hung Mountain. Besides, many huge balloons with various colors will be hung in surrounding areas. In the earnest the following morning, 10th day the main worship service is held, beginning with the flower ceremony. In Den Thuong (Upper Temple) where the Hung Kings used to worship deities with full rituals, the ceremony consists of a lavish five-fruit feast. 

Banh Chung (square cake) and Banh Giay (circle cake) are also served to remind people of the Lang Lieu Legend (the 18th Hung King who invented these cakes), and the merit of the Hung Kings who taught people to grow rice. Besides, some marches in the procession also are took place as the elephant march followed by the procession chair. Especially, a Xoan song performance (a classical type of song) in the Den Thuong, a “Ca Tru” (a kind of classical opera) in Den Ha (Lower Temple) are performed in the march, and other activities like cross-bow shooting, rice cooking, swinging contests, cock fighting, and dragon dancing are also took place.





Annually, on the 10th day of the third lunar March visitors from all over the country will come to Phu Tho province to take part in the festival. They believe that it is a way to show their love and pride of their ancestral land. The Hung King Temple Festival is one of the most important festivals of the Vietnamese people; it is deeply imbedded in the minds of all Vietnamese citizens, regardless of where they originated from.

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## yue10

Grand Historian said:


> After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.
> 
> I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.
> 
> 1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
> 2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
> 3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
> 4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
> 5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).
> 
> If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?
> 
> Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
> Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation
> 
> Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.
> 
> 
> 2.This question is the definition of asinine.
> 
> From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.
> 
> There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.
> 
> So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?
> 
> 
> 3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.
> 
> Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.
> 
> They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
> however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.
> 
> Some reading for those interested.
> http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
> http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf
> 
> 
> 4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.
> 
> If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)
> 
> For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han
> 
> However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.
> 
> In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.
> 
> 雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）
> 
> King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.
> 
> To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.
> 
> If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.
> 
> The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
> 
> 
> In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.
> 
> 
> 5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.
> 
> Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.
> 
> There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.
> 
> 
> As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.
> 
> My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam


the Annam race could be called as slave mentality and inferioty complex

Nanyue is Tai


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## NiceGuy

terranMarine said:


> Boasting how the Viets had defeated the Mongolians are what they do best here, when the French came these supa powa Viets let the French rule them. What happened to the mighty Viets that fought against the aggressive Mongolian Empire? Then the Japs came, the French surrendered and the Viets didn't do much against the Japs.


First : lots of VNese was Catholic and Christian during French colony's time. They support French against VN emperor, thats why, we were defeated quite easily.People can say: during French colony's time, its a VN civil war between pro-Catholic and nationalist VNEse

French could rule VN coz those pro-Catholic VNese begged for their support to take control of VN


> A power struggle then developed between Minh Mạng and pro-Catholic, pro-Western officials who wanted to maintain the power they had been given by Gia Long.[25][26][26][26] Eventually, 2,000 Vietnamese Catholic troops fought under the command of Father Nguyễn Văn Tâm in an attempt to depose Minh Mạng and install a Catholic emperor.[27]
> 
> The revolt was put down, and restrictions were placed on Catholicism. Persistent rebellions occurred throughout the Nguyễn Dynasty, many led by Catholic priests intent on installing a Christian monarch. During the French colonial campaign against Vietnam from 1858 to 1883, many Catholics joined with the French in helping to establish colonialism by fighting against the Vietnamese government. Once colonial rule was established the Catholics were rewarded with preferential treatment in government posts, education, and the church was given vast tracts of royal land that had been seized.
> 
> After the end of the French rule and Vietnam division in mid-1950s, Catholicism declined in the North, where the communists regarded it as a reactionary force opposed to national liberation and social progress. In the South, by contrast, Catholicism was expanded under the presidency of Ngo Dinh Diem, who promoted it as an important bulwark against North Vietnam. Diem, whose brother was Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc gave extra rights to the Catholic Church, dedicated the nation to the Virgin Mary and preferentially promoted Catholic military officers and public servants while restricting Buddhism and allowing Catholic paramilitaries to demolish temples and pagodas. In 1955 approximately 600,000 Catholics remained in the North after an estimated 650,000 had fled to the South in Operation Passage to Freedom.
> Christianity in Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


second: Champa and Khmer also got support from French and they weakened VN's power too


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> the Annam race could be called as slave mentality and inferioty complex
> 
> Nanyue is Tai


idiot. posting again and again same words. copy and paste.


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## yue10

Viet said:


> idiot. posting again and again same words. copy and paste.


what's problem now my Annam friend? your abusive mentality showed maybe something hurting a bit deeper inside, its could be massive inferiority complex ran through the vein of the Annams race


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> First : lots of VNese was Catholic and Christian during French colony's time. They support French against VN emperor, thats why, we were defeated quite easily.People can say: during French colony's time, its a VN civil war between pro-Catholic and nationalist VNEse
> 
> French could rule VN coz those pro-Catholic VNese begged for their support to take control of VN
> 
> second: Champa and Khmer also got support from French and they weakened VN's power too



You allowed those pro-Christian beggars to run your country which means you are quite weak by yourselves.


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## Grand Historian

Viet(the member),it doesn't matter if your people commemorate the Hung Kings,there are plenty of temples dedicated to Shennong or Huangdi yet no serious Sinologist claims the Three Sovereigns and Five Augusts were real.

In the 1900s the existence of the Shang dynasty was doubted and Shiji was treated as hogwash,however due to the discovery of oracle bones Shang was proven to exist.

However there lacks any evidence of oracle bones showing the Xia kings or archaeological remains thus the same scrutiny should be applied to Xich Quy,Van Lang and the Hung Kings.

I already stated Phong Chau didn't exist it terminology is from the Sui-Tang era.
http://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/the-problems-with-“chau”-and-phong-chau/


You have to realize identities back then weren't divided neatly into black and white.

Nguyen era texts refer to modern day Kinh people as Han,while even as late as the Qing Han Chinese showed loyalty with people from their own provinces or villages.

The Nguyen dynasty even worshiped Chinese deities/sages/kings.
http://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/the-nguyễn-dynasty’s-miếu-lịch-dại-dế-vương/
Several Vietnamese dynasties were founded by men with Chinese ancestry such as Early Ly dynasty,Tran and Ho dynasties if you consider Thuc Phan to be Chinese then that's another one.

Jiaozhi was also a prime location for Han migrants yet the only Vietnamese migration to China is the modern day Jing ethincity in Guangxi.

One prime example would be the constant feuds between Zhangzhou,Quanzhou and Hakka people in Taiwan even though they were considered Han.

Han as an ethnoym originated in the Northern Wei dynasty.

For further reading about Han Chinese ethnicity I would recommend reading

Becoming Zhongguo,Becoming Han: Tracing and Re-Conceptualizing Ethnicity in Ancient Northern China,770-AD581

Critical Han Studies: The History, Representation, and Identity of China's Majority


Since you nationalist Vietnamese are so obsessed with Southern Han Chinese being brainwashed Baiyue are Southern Vietnamese brainwashed Khmer,Chams and Han Chinese?


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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.
> 
> I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.
> 
> 1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
> 2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
> 3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
> 4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
> 5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).
> 
> If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?
> 
> Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
> Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation
> 
> Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.
> 
> 
> 2.This question is the definition of asinine.
> 
> From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.
> 
> There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.
> 
> So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?
> 
> 
> 3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.
> 
> Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.
> 
> They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
> however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.
> 
> Some reading for those interested.
> http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
> http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf
> 
> 
> 4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.
> 
> If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)
> 
> For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han
> 
> However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.
> 
> In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.
> 
> 雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）
> 
> King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.
> 
> To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.
> 
> If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.
> 
> The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
> 
> 
> In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.
> 
> 
> 5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.
> 
> Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.
> 
> There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.
> 
> 
> As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.
> 
> My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam



1. 
40 % Cantonese and 37 % Wuyue people don't shared partial bloodline with Han people Han in Northern China, they are native people called as Bai Yue in early history of China.

2. CouJian, Zhoa Tuo and his soldiers were Han, they created WuYue, NamYue, MinYue Dynasties in ancient time. Its similar to Spanol, Portugal, English men created countries today called Latin American states in America continent. Mixed people can not say they are pure Spanol, Portugal or white men.

3. Dongyi is called for WuYue people, or Jingshu (荆楚) not for Japanese nor Korean, because when the concept "DongYi" born, created by Northern Hans, they did not know where are Japanese are living in this time, they were in Islands as far in oversea, not in East area of mainland China.

4. At beginning statement of our History book, it stated that "when God created many countries, looked at Jiaozhi people who is out of BaiYue ..." its means from long time in the past, so that our ancestors dont considered themselves belong to Bai Yue (Tai/Kay) people. In fact Vietnames/Kinh people is belong Mon Khmer people

Our History book is also stated that: "Van Lang to the East it touched the Southern Sea, to the West Ba and Shu, to the North Lake Dongting, ...."

A genetically based conclusion that the Hmong-Mien peoples are an offshoot of the Mon-Khmer peoples, 

Dispatches From Turtle Island: Genetic Links of Mon-Khmer and Hmong-Mien Peoples Confirmed







So we can believe that in ancient time Hung King was ruler of our our land, today is Southern China, North point reached to DongDing Lake in China.

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## ChineseTiger1986

This is your history.

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You allowed those pro-Christian beggars to run your country which means you are quite weak by yourselves.


pro-Christian and Chinese helped VNese to expand to the South, so,in the return, we must share the power with them.

When both pro-Christian and Chinese became our problem, we simply kick them out all. pro-Christian out in 1975 and then Chinese out in 1979


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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> 1.
> 40 % Cantonese and 37 % Wuyue people don't shared partial bloodline with Han people Han in Northern China, they are native people called as Bai Yue in early history of China.
> 
> 2. CouJian, Zhoa Tuo and his soldiers were Han, they created WuYue, NamYue, MinYue Dynasties in ancient time. Its similar to Spanol, Portugal, English men created countries today called Latin American states in America continent. Mixed people can not say they are pure Spanol, Portugal or white men.
> 
> 3. Dongyi is called for WuYue people, or Jingshu (荆楚) not for Japanese nor Korean, because when the concept "DongYi" born, created by Northern Hans, they did not know where are Japanese are living in this time, they were in Islands as far in oversea, not in East area of mainland China.
> 
> 4. At beginning statement of our History book, it stated that "when God created many countries, looked at Jiaozhi people who is out of BaiYue ..." its means from long time in the past, so that our ancestors dont considered themselves belong to Bai Yue (Tai/Kay) people. In fact Vietnames/Kinh people is belong Mon Khmer people
> 
> Our History book is also stated that: "Van Lang to the East it touched the Southern Sea, to the West Ba and Shu, to the North Lake Dongting, ...."
> 
> A genetically based conclusion that the Hmong-Mien peoples are an offshoot of the Mon-Khmer peoples,
> 
> Dispatches From Turtle Island: Genetic Links of Mon-Khmer and Hmong-Mien Peoples Confirmed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we can believe that in ancient time Hung King was ruler of our our land, today is Southern China, North point reached to DongDing Lake in China.


1. Attaching a haplogroup to an ethnicity or language is ridiculous.

These haplogroups existed prior to the modern identities of Baiyue or Chinese.

O1a and is also found Koreans,Mongolians,Uighurs and Japanese that doesn't mean they're descended from Baiyue people.

If a Han Chinese has a Western Eurasian haplogroup that doesn't mean they're White...

You don't seem to realize none of these studies are conclusive,different areas of Guangdong received more immigration than others.

Where does O1 or O2 make up 40 and 37%?






2. Goujian ancestry is unknown his family claimed descent from Yu who is mythical in the end his family might just be sinicized people.

Zhao Tuo was from Zhending,Zhao so he was definitely considered "Chinese".

Regardless Han ethnicity did not exist then and you are inaccurately portraying them as Han.

I certainly don't champion a pure Han ethnicity,no ethnicity on the face of the earth is pure including Vietnamese. 

Why are you so obsessed with Southern Han Chinese Baiyue ancestry?


3. Neither the states of GouWu or YuYue were labeled Dongyi,it was Shang era barbarians that lived there. 

I already stated in my previous post that it was the term was reused to apply to Koreans and Japanese.

4.No your ancestors explicitly claimed descent from the Luoyue and Ouyue who were part of the Baiyue.

So all of sudden Hmong-Mien and Austro Asiatic speakers are "Vietnamese"?

What Ngo Si Lien claimed is false, there is no historical records of that era or archaeological artifacts.

There is no evidence of the Hung King either,please show a scholar source that agrees with you.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> 2. Goujian ancestry is unknown his family claimed descent from Yu who is mythical in the end his family might just be sinicized people.
> 
> *Zhao Tuo *was from Zhending,Zhao so he was definitely considered* "Chinese".*
> 
> Regardless Han ethnicity did not exist then and you are inaccurately portraying them as Han.
> 
> I certainly don't champion a pure Han ethnicity,no ethnicity on the face of the earth is pure including Vietnamese.
> 
> Why are you so obsessed with Southern Han Chinese Baiyue ancestry?


Who tells you that *Zhao Tuo *was Chinese, when China even did not exist back then?

Even if Zhao Tuo was Chinese, the country he ruled did not belong to his homeland where he was born. Remember NamViet (NanYue) was an independent nation. Learn history!

At all, If people followed your logic the German Third Reich under *Adolf Hitler* belongs to Austria because he was born there. The French Empire under *Napoleon Bonaparte *belongs to Corse, because he was born there. The Russian Empire under *Katharina die Große* belongs to Germany because she was born there, and so fort...

You should stop posting shit. Can you tell me how many Non-Han´s/ non-Chinese ruled China?

I don´t comment further on the last part. I just wonder who is more obsessed with Baiyue? Apparently you!

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This is your history.



Here is our true history land, Hung King was ruler of Northern group of Austro - Asiatic Mon/Khmer/Kinh people.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Here is our true history land, Hung King was ruler of Northern group of Austro - Asiatic Mon/Khmer/Kinh people.



Didn't you say that you Kinh people aren't related to the people from Shanghai to Guangdong, so why including our territory in this map?


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## INDIC

What ethnic group Tai people belongs to, anybody know their haplogroup.


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## sincity

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Didn't you say that you Kinh people aren't related to the people from Shanghai to Guangdong, so why including our territory in this map?





Just ignore the fool.


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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> Who tells you that *Zhao Tuo *was Chinese, when China even did not exist back then?
> 
> Even if Zhao Tuo was Chinese, the country he ruled did not belong to his homeland where he was born. Remember NamViet (NanYue) was an independent nation. Learn history!
> 
> At all, If people followed your logic the Third Reich
> 
> 
> 
> Viet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if Zhao Tuo was Chinese, the country he ruled did not belong to his homeland where he was born. Remember NamViet (NanYue) was an independent nation. Learn history!
> 
> 
> 
> Viet said:
> 
> 
> 
> o was Chinese, the country he ruled did not belong to his homeland where he was born. Remember NamViet (NanYue) was an independent nation. Learn history!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At all, If people followed your logic the Th
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> under Adolf Hitler belongs to Austria because he was born there. The French Empire under Napoleon Bonaparte belongs to Corse, because he was born there. The Russian Empire under _Katharina die Große _belongs to Germany because she was born there, and so fort...
> 
> You should stop posting shit.
> 
> I don´t comment further on the last part. I just wonder who is more obessed with Baiyue?
Click to expand...

I don't think it takes a genius to realize that the Warring States are Chinese,no one ever viewed Zhao as semi barbaric unlike GouWu,YuYue,Qin and Chu.

Yes Qin unified Northern China however to say China existed then is ridiculous,there was the previous Zhou and Shang which are recognized worldwide as Chinese.

Did Vietnam exist only after the conquest of Cham,of course not...

I never stated that Nanyue is Chinese stop putting words in my mouth,I stated Zhao Tuo is Chinese.

Vietnamese nationalists always harp on how China was under foreign rule yet several Vietnamese dynasties had Chinese ancestors so its the pot calling the kettle black.

You do realize that Zhao Tuo relented to being a vassal under the Han and apologized for his aggressiveness against Changsha.

Why Zhao Tuo sought to rival the Han is unknown it could be anything from avarice,revenge or a grand delusion.

Where are the primary sources that said he fought for the Yue identity which you nationalist Vietnamese wish to twist that he was fighting for Vietnamese.

More than likely Nanyue was a Sincized kingdom with a mixed population of Qin convicts/soldiers and various Baiyue tribes that later conquered Au Lac,true Zhao Tuo squatted like a Yue and adopted some clothing however from artifacts Chinese seals,jade suits and government were still used.

Keep in mind that Zhao Tuo's capital was in Panyu and that it is unknown what time of Baiyue his descendants married.

If you are at all interested in the subject why don't you read modern day research such as 古南越国史 or primary sources such as Shiji?

It seems quite common of you to resort to petty insults when you are backed into a corner.

Tell me,where is the historical and archaeological proof for the existence of Xich Quy,Van Lang or Hung Kings?

Strange how you mention I'm obsessed with Baiyue people,they are natives of Southern China I cannot deny that my ancestors mixed with them,however nationalistic Vietnamese always try to claim that Southern Han Chinese are brainwashed and are kin.

Is that not a sign of inferiority complex?



EastSea said:


> Here is our true history land, Hung King was ruler of Northern group of Austro - Asiatic Mon/Khmer/Kinh people.


Now you show your true colors,regardless there is no proof of kingdom of that size and is nothing more than mental masturbation

I find it absolutely hilarious how former vassals/tributaries of China try to piggy back off China's splendor and civilization.

Not only to nationalistic Vietnamese and Koreans distort history they even claim that Chinese are part Korean or Vietnamese!

Seems like the only thing that will satisfy these nationalists is the China splintering into smaller factions and recognizing their "lost" Baiyue/Nomadic roots.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> ...
> Not only to nationalistic Vietnamese and Koreans distort history they even claim that Chinese are part Korean or Vietnamese!
> 
> Seems like the only thing that will satisfy these nationalists is the China splintering into smaller factions and recognizing their "lost" Baiyue/Nomadic roots.


again a long post from you. Let me reply on one part.

I see you love those words "nationalist" and "inferiority complex" as you keep repeating. I don´t mind but just wonder if these attitudes fit better to someone else?

I don´t want to dabate with you on Korean history. I read some stuffs about it, but it is better when Korean members reply to your posts. To put it simple: your view is disputed.

Your claim reduces to this simple math: "China is everywhere, and so everything is Chinese", reminds me to your current claim: "The South China Sea is mine, because I was the first there who sailed through the waters and the first who catched the first fish." in your view the world is full of Chinese, no other people live in the region. Others don´t have own history. Simply rediculous!

First and foremost You should be clear about what defines a nation? What makes it standing out from others? What is China? Where it begins and where it ends?

Not influence in all sorts of such as cultures, custom, land of birth of the ruler or whether tributary state. It is *sovereignty *the ruler has over his nation and people.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Didn't you say that you Kinh people aren't related to the people from Shanghai to Guangdong, so why including our territory in this map?



In the ancient time, our Hung King ruled the country flexibly on majority people Mon/Khmer/H'mong mien/JiaoZhi/kinh etc ... only. He didn't cared to much about other minorities native people.


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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> again a long post from you. Let me reply on one part.
> 
> I see you love those words "nationalist" and "inferiority complex" as you keep repeating. I don´t mind but just wonder if these attitudes fit better to someone else?
> 
> I don´t want to dabate with you on Korean history. I read some stuffs about it, but it is better when Korean members reply to your posts. To put it simple: your view is disputed.
> 
> Your claim reduces to this simple math: "China is everywhere, and so everything is Chinese", reminds me to your current claim: "The South China Sea is mine, because I was the first there who sailed through the waters and the first who catched the first fish." in your view the world is full of Chinese, no other people live in the region. Others don´t have own history. Simply rediculous!
> 
> First and foremost You should be clear about what defines a nation? What makes it standing out from others? What is China? Where it begins and where it ends?
> 
> Not influence in all sorts of such as cultures, custom, land of birth of the ruler or whether tributary state. It is *sovereignty *the ruler has over his nation and people.


Vietnamese members on this forum have been claiming that Southern Han Chinese that we are brainwashed and Baiyue people how is this not a mark of nationalism.

Face it, after living in the shadow of Chinese civilization inventing a past that predates the Chinese is a source of pride.

It seems like you two lack academic integrity,all the questions I post are legitimate yet you copy and paste the same banal claims over and over again without any sort of proof whatsoever.

When have I claimed the whole world is Chinese I didn't even mention the South China Sea again you are putting words in my mouth.

Rather I claim the Spring Autumn/Warring States are Chinese and the peripheral states such as Chu,YuYue and GouWu already submitted themselves to the Chinese world order by cementing their kinship to Xia and Zhou kings.

There's a reason why these states are included in Chinese history.

If Zhao is not Chinese what is it then?

The same questions should be applied to you.

You claim that there was a Vietnam during the Hung king's reign yet you criticize me for claiming there was a China before the Qin dynasty this is another example of your blatant hypocrisy.

Zhao Tuo recognized Han Gaozu as his suzerain go look it up in the Shiji.



EastSea said:


> In the ancient time, our Hung King ruled the country flexibly on majority people Mon/Khmer/H'mong mien/JiaoZhi/kinh etc ... only. He didn't cared to much about other minorities native people.


I already posted why the existence of Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings are disputed yet you feel the need to spread your propaganda around...


To be frank,it is quite tiring seeing the same things over and over again,either you have academic sources or you don't.


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## Lux de Veritas

Hi Vietnamese friends here, I have something to verify. According to various sources, there is a pro-China, and this faction is gaining a slightly upper edge in Vietnam.

I believe Chairman Nong Duc Manh is slightly pro-China，so is Nguyễn Phú Trọng,..etc. 

Want to listen to your comment about this.


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## NiceGuy

Lux de Veritas said:


> Hi Vietnamese friends here, I have something to verify. According to various sources, there is a pro-China, and this faction is gaining a slightly upper edge in Vietnam.
> 
> I believe Chairman Nong Duc Manh is slightly pro-China，so is Nguyễn Phú Trọng,..etc.
> 
> Want to listen to your comment about this.


its just a rumor, Nguyễn Phú Trọng is old, hes good at delivering a speech and just like other members of VN politburo (16 member), his power is not strong enough to exert an influence to the whole VN communist party

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## MACKLEMORE

Viet said:


> Also Chinese refer to Viet people in China as the Jīng (京族). 京 itself stands for Peking?
> Gin people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> salut elis, tu parles anglais, vietnamien et français?



NO.

京 means capital city. 东京 means Bianjing, the capital of Song Dynasty, 南京 means Nanjing, the capital city of Republic of China.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> In the ancient time, our Hung King ruled the country flexibly on majority people Mon/Khmer/H'mong mien/JiaoZhi/kinh etc ... only. He didn't cared to much about other minorities native people.



That's why all you people came from North Vietnam.


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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> Hi Vietnamese friends here, I have something to verify. According to various sources, there is a pro-China, and this faction is gaining a slightly upper edge in Vietnam.
> 
> I believe Chairman Nong Duc Manh is slightly pro-China，so is Nguyễn Phú Trọng,..etc.
> 
> Want to listen to your comment about this.


I see the current Vietnamese government is (very) friendly towards China. So the pro-China faction is indeed in the upper hand. That explains why the government oppresses any protests and any negative reports on China. Moreover VN leadership seeks closer tie with the Chinese. That is unusual considering how rude and aggressive China acts towards Vietnam. Sure, China has softened her stance a bit in the dispute, but the issue is simmering under the carpet.

If this strategy does not pay out, I assume the contra-China faction will return.

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## Lux de Veritas

The above is the land lost by PRC with respect to Qing and it is a way underestimation of Qing territory. China has no intention to get it back. I see some Vietnamese nationalistic sentiment being over-hyped. Actually China has settled land border dispute with Vietnam -- and almost all her neighbors except India.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/world/asia/01iht-border.1.19027004.html?_r=0

China has given concessions to neighbors so much so that the PRC got whack by netizens. But in all cases, western/Russian medias attacked China's counter-party for being weak and accused the negotiators of being traitors. I think western/Russian medias are trying to fan everyone into hating China, using lies.

We do not know what is inside the China-Vietnam land deal, but this time, I bet Vietnamese can expect a lot of goodies from China. Your leaders must be laughing their ways. But beware of western/Russian media, any land settlement with China will be interpreted as a territory lost and betrayal.


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## Srinivas

Lux de Veritas said:


> The above is the land lost by PRC with respect to Qing and it is a way underestimation of Qing territory. China has no intention to get it back. I see some Vietnamese nationalistic sentiment being over-hyped. Actually China has settled land border dispute with Vietnam -- and almost all her neighbors except India.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/world/asia/01iht-border.1.19027004.html?_r=0
> 
> China has given concessions to neighbors so much so that the PRC got whack by netizens. But in all cases, western/Russian medias attacked China's counter-party for being weak and accused the negotiators of being traitors. I think western/Russian medias are trying to fan everyone into hating China, using lies.
> 
> We do not know what is inside the China-Vietnam land deal, but this time, I bet Vietnamese can expect a lot of goodies from China. Your leaders must be laughing their ways. But beware of western/Russian media, any land settlement with China will be interpreted as a territory lost and betrayal.




Britain can also claim entire world base on Colonial rule, not a good logic by CCP. 

CCP is been infiltrated by CIA and other western agencies and are making china aggressor, CCP must go or china must be subjugated.


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## Lux de Veritas

Srinivas said:


> Britain can also claim entire world base on Colonial rule, not a good logic by CCP.
> 
> CCP is been infiltrated by CIA and other western agencies and are making china aggressor, CCP must go or china must be subjugated.



Cannot reason with Indians. These people do not understand why everyone in the world hate them and they got into problem with all their neighbors. Indians talk a lot making people piss.


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## Srinivas

Lux de Veritas said:


> Cannot reason with Indians. These people do not understand whey everyone in the world hate them and they got into problem with all their neighbors. Indians talk a lot making people piss.



Are you a Singaporean chinese who are a wannabe White people???


----------



## eazzy

I think that China lost too much in the northeast, looks like Russia made Vladivostok so China can't try to get it back, China lost an access to the sea of Japan.


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## Lux de Veritas

There are formal territories lost to Russia, North korea, Kazakhstan, Kyrgistan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Mongolia and Myanmar, even without taking into account of how much territory was lost in Qing Dynasty. I am not even mentioning about the Qing territories where China has no intention at all to recover. I am talking about the more recent settlements with neighbors.

Two years ago, Tajikistan and China settle border dispute. BBC shouted,
*Tajikistan cedes land to China*

BBC News - Tajikistan cedes land to China

That is entirely bullshit. While the details of the deal is not made public, there are speculations online that China made a big concessions to Tajikistan that the bill even get through Parliament. Voted in by lawmakers.

I expect similar deals and goodies given to Vietnam. How about India? She is just a big lunatic and Nazi country and base on conduct of Hindutva in this forum, one can bypothesize how difficult it is to make a Hindu come to sense.


----------



## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> The above is the land lost by PRC with respect to Qing and it is a way underestimation of Qing territory. China has no intention to get it back. I see some Vietnamese nationalistic sentiment being over-hyped. Actually *China has settled land border dispute with Vietnam* -- and almost all her neighbors except India.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/world/asia/01iht-border.1.19027004.html?_r=0
> 
> China has given concessions to neighbors so much so that the PRC got whack by netizens. But in all cases, western/Russian medias attacked China's counter-party for being weak and accused the negotiators of being traitors. I think western/Russian medias are trying to fan everyone into hating China, using lies.
> 
> We do not know what is inside the China-Vietnam land deal, but this time, I bet Vietnamese can expect a lot of goodies from China. Your leaders must be laughing their ways. But beware of western/Russian media, any land settlement with China will be interpreted as a territory lost and betrayal.


Correct, China and Vietnam have finally settled the border demarcation since 2009. It should be allowed that we dabate on history. Nobody wants anything from China.


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## Lux de Veritas

Viet said:


> Correct, China and Vietnam have finally settled the border demarcation since 2009. It should be allowed that we dabate on history. Nobody wants anything from China.



I have not seen China short changing neighbors in territory dispute and China has shown a lot of flexibility. I think China should be willing to make a deal with Vietnam in South China Sea, and I am seeing that Vietnam has refused to toll the USA line unlike Philippines.

Who knows, Vietnamese and PRC leaders have strike some deals in S China Sea. Just like China has allowed Malaysia to quietly occupy Spratly.


----------



## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> I expect similar deals and goodies given to Vietnam. How about India? She is just a big lunatic and Nazi country and base on conduct of Hindutva in this forum, one can bypothesize how difficult it is to make a Hindu come to sense.


Actually the details were not made public, but some suspected Vietnamese government ceded some concessionto China. For instance, the friendship gate was tradionally the exact marker between China and Vietnam since the Ming Dynasty, and now it lies well within Chinese territory. 

Friendship Pass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Lux de Veritas

Viet said:


> Actually the details were not made public, but some suspected Vietnamese government ceded some lands to China. For instance, the friendship gate was tradionally the exact marker between China and Vietnam, and now it lies well within Chinese territory.
> 
> Friendship Pass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Nationalist on both side will sensationalize territory lost. I think its not likely China will short-changed Vietnam. Anyway, it is good that both people can make a deal.

Beware of all western media. They will cry territory lost whenever they see someone settling their dispute with China.



INDIC said:


> Land lost by Chinese?  Some foreign invaders(Manchus) comes from the other side of Great Wall against whom Chinese once built Great Wall of China, they added more territories in China and lost control on most of it during the end days of the Qing dynasty and now the same earlier part of Qing dynasty along with land of neighbouring countries became lost land of the Chinese people.




Before 1947, no India, and India got inheritance from British. See whether Indian can forgo Kashmir, Goa and Kalistan.

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## INDIC

Lux de Veritas said:


> Before 1947, no India, and India got inheritance from British. See whether Indian can forgo Kashmir, Goa and Kalistan.



Is that your crappy knowlege about Indian history.


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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> I have not seen China short changing neighbors in territory dispute and China has shown a lot of flexibility. I think *China should be willing to make a deal with Vietnam in South China Sea*, and I am seeing that Vietnam has refused to toll the USA line unlike Philippines.
> 
> Who knows, Vietnamese and PRC leaders have strike some deals in S China Sea. Just like China has allowed Malaysia to quietly occupy Spratly.


I hope so. The tension sucks.

An interesting note, at present a Chinese delegation led by Wang Jiarui, head of the Chinese Communist Party’s International Liaison Department visits Vietnam. He says to his Vietnamese host:

"The two countries should cooperate to strengthen solidarity, seizing mutual opportunities and presenting *a united front against hostile conspiracies*."


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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> I don't think it takes a genius to realize that the Warring States are Chinese,no one ever viewed Zhao as semi barbaric unlike GouWu,YuYue,Qin and Chu.
> 
> Yes Qin unified Northern China however to say China existed then is ridiculous,there was the previous Zhou and Shang which are recognized worldwide as Chinese.
> 
> Did Vietnam exist only after the conquest of Cham,of course not...
> 
> I never stated that Nanyue is Chinese stop putting words in my mouth,I stated Zhao Tuo is Chinese.
> 
> *Vietnamese nationalists always harp on how China was under foreign rule yet several Vietnamese dynasties had Chinese ancestors so its the pot calling the kettle black.*
> 
> You do realize that Zhao Tuo relented to being a vassal under the Han and apologized for his aggressiveness against Changsha.
> 
> Why Zhao Tuo sought to rival the Han is unknown it could be anything from avarice,revenge or a grand delusion.
> 
> Where are the primary sources that said he fought for the Yue identity which you nationalist Vietnamese wish to twist that he was fighting for Vietnamese.
> 
> More than likely Nanyue was a Sincized kingdom with a mixed population of Qin convicts/soldiers and various Baiyue tribes that later conquered Au Lac,true Zhao Tuo squatted like a Yue and adopted some clothing however from artifacts Chinese seals,jade suits and government were still used.
> 
> Keep in mind that Zhao Tuo's capital was in Panyu and that it is unknown what time of Baiyue his descendants married.
> 
> If you are at all interested in the subject why don't you read modern day research such as 古南越国史 or primary sources such as Shiji?
> 
> It seems quite common of you to resort to petty insults when you are backed into a corner.
> 
> Tell me,where is the historical and archaeological proof for the existence of Xich Quy,Van Lang or Hung Kings?
> 
> Strange how you mention I'm obsessed with Baiyue people,they are natives of Southern China I cannot deny that my ancestors mixed with them,however nationalistic Vietnamese always try to claim that Southern Han Chinese are brainwashed and are kin.
> 
> Is that not a sign of inferiority complex?
> 
> 
> Now you show your true colors,regardless there is no proof of kingdom of that size and is nothing more than mental masturbation
> 
> I find it absolutely hilarious how former vassals/tributaries of China try to piggy back off China's splendor and civilization.
> 
> Not only to nationalistic Vietnamese and Koreans distort history they even claim that Chinese are part Korean or Vietnamese!
> 
> Seems like the only thing that will satisfy these nationalists is the China splintering into smaller factions and recognizing their "lost" Baiyue/Nomadic roots.



You are stupid historian when you can not understand what is the different thing here.

Mongolian and Manchurian were foreigners, they invaded in to China and ruled Chinese.

Ly, Tran and Ho were Yue people came to Vietnam, they were Vietnamezed after many generations living in Vietnam. 

Most important thing for the matter is that they fought against domination or invasion of chinese aggressors in to Vietnam, Tang, Mongolian or Ming aggressors.

Its difference, you are fake little historian.



yue10 said:


> this is their history
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dark skin and uncivilised Annam race came from South and move up
> 
> good job my Chinaman friend, the Annam race got massive inferiority complex, they was humiliated by Ming so to make themself feel less of inferior race after when wrote the history just copy pasted from Chinese historical records and now they made ridiculous claims, all the ancient Viets histories belong to Tai



Skin color of Sino Khmer Rouge is darker than us. But color is not important, it is problem with your mentality when you go to dead for interest of your master sitting in Peking.

Polpot did not like living in Phnompen, he went to jungle to fight against Vietnamese, late on Vietnam and China shaked hands to normalization the relation. Camrades of Polpot go to jail to answer for his crime against Cambodian and Vietnamese people.

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> You are stupid historian when you can not understand what is the different thing here.
> Mongolian and Manchurian were foreigners, they invaded in to China and ruled Chinese.
> Ly, Tran and Ho were Yue people came to Vietnam, they were Vietnamezed after many generations living in Vietnam.





Rechoice said:


> You are stupid historian when you can not understand what is the different thing here.
> 
> Mongolian and Manchurian were foreigners, they invaded in to China and ruled Chinese.
> 
> Ly, Tran and Ho were Yue people came to Vietnam, they were Vietnamezed after many generations living in Vietnam.
> 
> Most important thing for the matter is that they fought against domination or invasion of chinese aggressors in to Vietnam, Tang, Mongolian or Ming aggressors.
> 
> Its difference, you are fake little historian.


Seems like I hit a nerve,petty insults won't do anything to help your credibility. 

"China" was split in to XiXia,Jin and Song on the eve of the Mongol conquests,Ming had already fallen into shambles before Wu Sangui allowed the Manchus to enter.

Neither one of these conquests would not have been possible without Han Chinese defectors.

Guess what,the Mongols and the Manchus did the exact same thing as the ancestors of the Ly,Tran and Ho they adopted local ways but never forgot their roots.

Ly ancestors came during the end of Western Han to escape the chaos Wang Mang started:

Found in the Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu
前李紀
Annals of Former Ly dynasty
帝姓李，諱賁，龍興太平人也。其先北人，
The emperor's surname was Ly his given name Bi from Longxi,Taiping. His ancestor came from the North.
西漢末苦於征伐，避居南土，七世遂爲南人。
At the fall of Western Han under the onus of warfare they sought refuge in the South,After 7 generations they became Southerners.

Tran ancestors came from Fujian and were able to speak Chinese
陳紀
Annals of the Tran dynasty
帝之先世閩人
The Tran emperor's ancestors were from Fujian
A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

Ho ancestors came from Zhejiang.
Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

Where is the evidence their ancestors are Yue not Han/Hua simply coming from Southern China doesn't make them Yue...

I'm not going to argue whether Yuan was Chinese or not I don't have sufficient information however Qing is viewed themselves as "Chinese" as sought to be sage emperors.

Here is the 1842 treaty of Nanking in Chinese and English notice how the treaty refers to Qing as China and that the Qing called themselves 中國.
南京條約 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆
Treaty of Nanking - Wikisource, the free online library

You do realize that the Manchus called Qing, Dulimbai gurun or Central Country(equivalent to中國) not Manchuria right?

Another definite proof is this Qing era passports.
Read post 27.
Nonexistent "Manchurian Empire" - Page 3 - Historum - History Forums

If you want to use bloodline as a proof that Qing was Manchu you also have to realize that Kangxi,Qianlong and Jiaqing all had "Han" mothers.
Kangxi's mother Tong clan
Qianlong's mother Qian clan
Jiaqing's mother Wei clan

Not to mention many ethnic Han were were bannerman and were free to intermarry between Mongol and Manchu bannerman.

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## Lux de Veritas

Grand Historian said:


> Seems like I hit a nerve,petty insults won't do anything to help your credibility.
> 
> "China" was split in to XiXia,Jin and Song on the eve of the Mongol conquests,Ming had already fallen into shambles before Wu Sangui allowed the Manchus to enter.
> 
> Neither one of these conquests would not have been possible without Han Chinese defectors.
> 
> Guess what,the Mongols and the Manchus did the exact same thing as the ancestors of the Ly,Tran and Ho they adopted local ways but never forgot their roots.
> 
> Ly ancestors came during the end of Western Han to escape the chaos Wang Mang started:
> 
> Found in the Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu
> 前李紀
> Annals of Former Ly dynasty
> 帝姓李，諱賁，龍興太平人也。其先北人，
> The emperor's surname was Ly his given name Bi from Longxi,Taiping. His ancestor came from the North.
> 西漢末苦於征伐，避居南土，七世遂爲南人。
> At the fall of Western Han under the onus of warfare they sought refuge in the South,After 7 generations they became Southerners.
> 
> Tran ancestors came from Fujian and were able to speak Chinese
> 陳紀
> Annals of the Tran dynasty
> 帝之先世閩人
> The Tran emperor's ancestors were from Fujian
> A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
> Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books
> 
> Ho ancestors came from Zhejiang.
> Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books
> 
> Where is the evidence their ancestors are Yue not Han/Hua simply coming from Southern China doesn't make them Yue...
> 
> I'm not going to argue whether Yuan was Chinese or not I don't have sufficient information however Qing is viewed themselves as "Chinese" as sought to be sage emperors.
> 
> Here is the 1842 treaty of Nanking in Chinese and English notice how the treaty refers to Qing as China and that the Qing called themselves 中國.
> 南京條約 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆
> Treaty of Nanking - Wikisource, the free online library
> 
> You do realize that the Manchus called Qing, Dulimbai gurun or Central Country(equivalent to中國) not Manchuria right?
> 
> Another definite proof is this Qing era passports.
> Read post 27.
> Nonexistent "Manchurian Empire" - Page 3 - Historum - History Forums
> 
> If you want to use bloodline as a proof that Qing was Manchu you also have to realize that Kangxi,Qianlong and Jiaqing all had "Han" mothers.
> Kangxi's mother Tong clan
> Qianlong's mother Qian clan
> Jiaqing's mother Wei clan
> 
> Not to mention many ethnic Han were were bannerman and were free to intermarry between Mongol and Manchu bannerman.



I have read from Chinese classical text that during the early days of Vietnamese secession from China, their elites and emperors were mostly Chinese. In contrary, after Korean break off, their rulers were native Korean.


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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Seems like I hit a nerve,petty insults won't do anything to help your credibility.
> 
> "China" was split in to XiXia,Jin and Song on the eve of the Mongol conquests,Ming had already fallen into shambles before Wu Sangui allowed the Manchus to enter.
> 
> Neither one of these conquests would not have been possible without Han Chinese defectors.
> 
> Guess what,the Mongols and the Manchus did the exact same thing as the ancestors of the Ly,Tran and Ho they adopted local ways but never forgot their roots.
> 
> Ly ancestors came during the end of Western Han to escape the chaos Wang Mang started:
> 
> Found in the Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu
> 前李紀
> Annals of Former Ly dynasty
> 帝姓李，諱賁，龍興太平人也。其先北人，
> The emperor's surname was Ly his given name Bi from Longxi,Taiping. His ancestor came from the North.
> 西漢末苦於征伐，避居南土，七世遂爲南人。
> At the fall of Western Han under the onus of warfare they sought refuge in the South,After 7 generations they became Southerners.
> 
> Tran ancestors came from Fujian and were able to speak Chinese
> 陳紀
> Annals of the Tran dynasty
> 帝之先世閩人
> The Tran emperor's ancestors were from Fujian
> A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
> Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books
> 
> Ho ancestors came from Zhejiang.
> Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books
> 
> Where is the evidence their ancestors are Yue not Han/Hua simply coming from Southern China doesn't make them Yue...
> 
> I'm not going to argue whether Yuan was Chinese or not I don't have sufficient information however Qing is viewed themselves as "Chinese" as sought to be sage emperors.
> 
> Here is the 1842 treaty of Nanking in Chinese and English notice how the treaty refers to Qing as China and that the Qing called themselves 中國.
> 南京條約 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆
> Treaty of Nanking - Wikisource, the free online library
> 
> You do realize that the Manchus called Qing, Dulimbai gurun or Central Country(equivalent to中國) not Manchuria right?
> 
> Another definite proof is this Qing era passports.
> Read post 27.
> Nonexistent "Manchurian Empire" - Page 3 - Historum - History Forums
> 
> If you want to use bloodline as a proof that Qing was Manchu you also have to realize that Kangxi,Qianlong and Jiaqing all had "Han" mothers.
> Kangxi's mother Tong clan
> Qianlong's mother Qian clan
> Jiaqing's mother Wei clan
> 
> Not to mention many ethnic Han were were bannerman and were free to intermarry between Mongol and Manchu bannerman.



you are stupid boy and have low IQ scores then you still do not understand what is the differences.

Mongolian and Manchurian were people of independence States outside òf Great Wall, with their own Emperor, their own Armies. They invaded in to China, defeated you and ruled you with force. *They were pure Mongolian and Manchurian when they defeated you and ruled you.*

Ly, Tran , Ho ancestors escaped from China following turmoils, *came to Vietnam from where was native land of Yue people, as refugee. After hundreds years following many generations assimilated by Vietnamese, they were Vietnamized,* they became Vietnamese citizens.

*They have been fought against invasions of Chinese to defended independence of Vietnam. Its the difference. *

Understand fake historian ?



Lux de Veritas said:


> I have read from Chinese classical text that during the early days of Vietnamese secession from China, their elites and emperors were mostly Chinese. In contrary, after Korean break off, their rulers were native Korean.



Chinese have an altitude to lie every thing if they can, like that: Ho Chi Minh is hakka.

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## yue10

Rechoice said:


> You are stupid historian when you can not understand what is the different thing here.
> 
> Mongolian and Manchurian were foreigners, they invaded in to China and ruled Chinese.
> 
> Ly, Tran and Ho were Yue people came to Vietnam, they were Vietnamezed after many generations living in Vietnam.
> 
> Most important thing for the matter is that they fought against domination or invasion of chinese aggressors in to Vietnam, Tang, Mongolian or Ming aggressors.
> 
> Its difference, you are fake little historian.
> 
> Skin color of Sino Khmer Rouge is darker than us. But color is not important, it is problem with your mentality when you go to dead for interest of your master sitting in Peking.
> 
> Polpot did not like living in Phnompen, he went to jungle to fight against Vietnamese, late on Vietnam and China shaked hands to normalization the relation. Camrades of Polpot go to jail to answer for his crime against Cambodian and Vietnamese people.


I am the 100% 'Viets blood' ok, I don't know why you kept accuse others as Khmer Rouge race

it seemed your Vietcong mentality forgot that if there are no support from the Annam race mean there was no Khmer Rouge came to power, who sent troop in to back Pol Pot against his amigo Lon Nol? the Annam race always like to played as victim when speak of China but denied their violent crimes against humanity against others like use chemical weapon against poor and innocent Khmer folks

Tran is Minyue not Viets, their clan use tattoo for mark as superiority same as Yue cultures but later stopped, just stop tried to claim everyone as the Viets ok


truth of Viets historian


> But it was different with Ngo Si Lien. He was determined to give to Dai Viet the longest past possible. The reason that prompted him to do so was more personal than patriotic, more political than scientific. In 1479, when Le Nhan Tonh was assassinated by his half brother Nghi Dan, and the throne of the Le was usurped by this man, Ngo Si Lien did not mind about his illegitimacy, instead took side with this cruel and lascivious man. Eight months later, Nghi Dan was overthrown. The new emperor, Le Thanh Tong, not only gave pardon to Ngo Si Lien, but also made him official historian. No wonder then that Ngo Si Lien filled with gratitude, tried to find a way to extoll to the utmost his royal benefactor


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> That's why all you people came from *North *Vietnam.


the Viets started from the North and moved slowly to the South. This "Southern March" took many centuries. When the Ming Dynasty collapsed, many Chinese fled and sought shelter in Vietnam. The emperor of Vietnam allowed them to settle in the new Southern part of the country.

One famous part of the Chinese community is Cho Lon or Great Market in Saigon.








yue10 said:


> I am the 100% 'Viets blood' ok, I don't know why you kept accuse others as Khmer Rouge race
> 
> it seemed your Vietcong mentality forgot that if there are no support from the Annam race mean there was no Khmer Rouge came to power, who sent troop in to back Pol Pot against his amigo Lon Nol? the Annam race always like to played as victim when speak of China but denied their violent crimes against humanity against others like use chemical weapon against poor and innocent Khmer folks
> 
> Tran is Minyue not Viets, their clan use tattoo for mark as superiority same as Yue cultures but later stopped, just stop tried to claim everyone as the Viets ok
> 
> 
> truth of Viets historian


*you are a low IQ idiot and retard!*


----------



## yue10

Viet said:


> the Viets started from the North and moved slowly to the South. This "Southern March" took many centuries.
> 
> *you are a low IQ idiot and retard!*


there you again with your abusive mentality, what a vicious race 

actually the Viets true Mon-Khmer root move North to take over from Tai in Jiaozhi then move South


----------



## Lux de Veritas

Rechoice said:


> you are stupid boy and have low IQ scores then you still do not understand what is the differences.
> 
> Mongolian and Manchurian were people of independence States outside òf Great Wall, with their own Emperor, their own Armies. They invaded in to China, defeated you and ruled you with force. *They were pure Mongolian and Manchurian when they defeated you and ruled you.*
> 
> Ly, Tran , Ho ancestors escaped from China following turmoils, *came to Vietnam as refeggee. After hundreds years following many generations assimilated by Vietnamese, they were Vietnamized,* they became Vietnamese citizens.
> 
> *They have been fought against invasions of Chinese to defended independence of Vietnam. Its the difference. *
> 
> Understand fake historian ?
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese have an altitude to lie every thing if they can, like that: Ho Chi Minh is hakka.


0

How much Vietnamese are really Vietnamese, I am not too sure. I believe many of you are fake. Its not so easy to catch a Chinese once he fake Vietnamese, but its far easier elsewhere in places like Thailand.

Thai kings are all mestizos and well documented, all have Chinese names.

Rama 1 郑华
Rama 2 郑佛
Rama 3 郑福
Rama 4 郑明
Rama 5 郑隆
Rama 6 郑宝
Rama 7 郑光
Rama 8 郑禧
Rama 9 郑固

The first king Rama 1 faked and lied that he was the son of King Taksin, whom he killed. King Taksin is Chinese, and his Chinese name is

郑信 (Tak sin)

郑 is surname.

A lot of Thai are very Chinese. May be there is 0% Chinese inside Vietnamese, who knows.

Remember "The Lover" by Marguerite Duras? 






The male protagonist is a Chinese Le Huynh Thuy who managed to fcuk one of the most famous French writer when she was a underage virgin girl at 15 years old.

Chinese make you Vietnamese proud.


----------



## INDIC

Lux de Veritas said:


> Thai kings are all mestizos and well documented, all have Chinese names.
> 
> Rama 1 郑华
> Rama 2 郑佛
> Rama 3 郑福
> Rama 4 郑明
> Rama 5 郑隆
> Rama 6 郑宝
> Rama 7 郑光
> Rama 8 郑禧
> Rama 9 郑固




All these names sound Indians, even the names of Thai Emperors and their queens sound mix of Sanskrit and Thai names, I can even recognize them.

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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> 0
> 
> How much Vietnamese are really Vietnamese, I am not too sure. I believe many of you are fake. Its not so easy to catch a Chinese once he fake Vietnamese, but its far easier elsewhere in places like Thailand.
> 
> Thai kings are all mestizos and well documented, all have Chinese names.
> 
> Rama 1 郑华
> Rama 2 郑佛
> Rama 3 郑福
> Rama 4 郑明
> Rama 5 郑隆
> Rama 6 郑宝
> Rama 7 郑光
> Rama 8 郑禧
> Rama 9 郑固
> 
> The first king Rama 1 faked and lied that he was the son of King Taksin, whom he killed. King Taksin is Chinese, and his Chinese name is
> 
> 郑信 (Tak sin)
> 
> 郑 is surname.
> 
> A lot of Thai are very Chinese. May be there is 0% Chinese inside Vietnamese, who knows.
> 
> Remember "The Lover" by Marguerite Duras?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The male protagonist is a Chinese Le Huynh Thuy who managed to fcuk one of the most famous French writer when she was a underage virgin girl at 15 years old.
> 
> Chinese make you Vietnamese proud.



Mao Zedong is Jew, not Han Chinese. Special Report: The Secret Role of Jews in China. 






Jewish Faces in the Chinese Government

What is idiot thing such chinese prostiuate did ? we don't care. How many Chinese women fucked by Mongolian, Manchus and Japanese ? You are proud for that ?


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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> you are stupid boy and have low IQ scores then you still do not understand what is the differences.
> 
> Mongolian and Manchurian were people of independence States outside òf Great Wall, with their own Emperor, their own Armies. They invaded in to China, defeated you and ruled you with force. *They were pure Mongolian and Manchurian when they defeated you and ruled you.*
> 
> Ly, Tran , Ho ancestors escaped from China following turmoils, *came to Vietnam from where was native land of Yue people, as refugee. After hundreds years following many generations assimilated by Vietnamese, they were Vietnamized,* they became Vietnamese citizens.
> 
> *They have been fought against invasions of Chinese to defended independence of Vietnam. Its the difference. *
> 
> Understand fake historian ?
> 
> Chinese have an altitude to lie every thing if they can, like that: Ho Chi Minh is hakka.



Mongolian and Manchurian are Chinese, the countries they found are obviously Chinese countries. Just like 魏蜀吳, 商&周 (both shared huge different cultures) and the ancient countries in Warriors States. The rulers of Qing and Yuan claimed that they are the successors of former Chinese dynasties like any creators of an Chinese dynasties did. Besides the old meaning of "China" means "the Middle Land", it doesn't refer to the modern meaning of [China] which is a term of a country. They did invaded "China", but they never invaded a country called China.

Vietnam was a country divided from Chinese dynasty, same as Pakistan which was divided from India and East Prussia (Kaliningrad) was taken away by Russia. You can never claim that Indian Mughal Empire is Pakistan and East Prussian were Russian nor Polish. 

That book is obvious an unofficial historical book, nobody in the world with a clear mind would even take serious to a story with a lot of doubts and consider it as a true history.

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## Lux de Veritas

Hey, I admit Chinese has nothing to do with Vietnamese, now everyone here happy? haha

Chinese has not contributed to any blood running in Vietnamese. Fortunately there are still Thais who admit that we are blood relatives like this cute girl below.










We dont want to have anything to do with Vietnamese also.


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## yue10

Lux de Veritas said:


> 0
> 
> How much Vietnamese are really Vietnamese, I am not too sure. I believe many of you are fake. Its not so easy to catch a Chinese once he fake Vietnamese, but its far easier elsewhere in places like Thailand.
> 
> Thai kings are all mestizos and well documented, all have Chinese names.
> 
> Rama 1 郑华
> Rama 2 郑佛
> Rama 3 郑福
> Rama 4 郑明
> Rama 5 郑隆
> Rama 6 郑宝
> Rama 7 郑光
> Rama 8 郑禧
> Rama 9 郑固
> 
> The first king Rama 1 faked and lied that he was the son of King Taksin, whom he killed. King Taksin is Chinese, and his Chinese name is
> 
> 郑信 (Tak sin)
> 
> 郑 is surname.
> 
> A lot of Thai are very Chinese. May be there is 0% Chinese inside Vietnamese, who knows.
> 
> Remember "The Lover" by Marguerite Duras?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The male protagonist is a Chinese Le Huynh Thuy who managed to fcuk one of the most famous French writer when she was a underage virgin girl at 15 years old.
> 
> Chinese make you Vietnamese proud.


and tongzhi Mao love underage girl too, shameful shameful


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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> Hey, I admit Chinese has nothing to do with Vietnamese, now everyone here happy? haha
> 
> Chinese has not contributed to any blood running in Vietnamese. Fortunately there are still Thais who admit that we are blood relatives like this cute girl below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We dont want to have anything to do with Vietnamese also.



I watched the news on TV, she is mostly crying and said on press conference that she and her family is Thai, stop to attack on her family.

Here is her rival, I think the man is pure Thai.






Thai protest leader vows final showdown with government, Thai protest leader Suthep Thuagsuban gestures as he addresses his supporters during an anti-government rally at the government complex in Bangkok,


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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> Remember "The Lover" by Marguerite Duras?
> 
> The male protagonist is a Chinese Le Huynh Thuy who managed to fcuk one of the most famous French writer when she was a underage virgin girl at 15 years old.
> 
> Chinese make you Vietnamese proud.


lol the roman is about a liaison between a French girl and a Chinese man in French Indochina. So it is not bad to take a Chinese playing a Chinese, don´t you think so?


yue10 said:


> there you again with your abusive mentality, what a vicious race
> 
> actually the Viets true Mon-Khmer root move North to take over from Tai in Jiaozhi then move South


*you are a low IQ idiot and retard!*

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## Lux de Veritas

This guy is a Chinese, his real name is *袁马克. *
Category:Thai politicians of Chinese descent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






Handsome boy above right is a mestizo. He do not have a "real" Chinese name per se. The old man on the left is another Chinese mestizo. He do not have a real Chinese name.

I think Vietnam is the only place in Indo-China that is 100% non-Chinese. haha...


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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> This guy is a Chinese, his real name is *袁马克. *
> Category:Thai politicians of Chinese descent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Handsome boy above right is a mestizo. He do not have a "real" Chinese name per se. The old man on the left is another Chinese mestizo. He do not have a real Chinese name.
> 
> I think Vietnam is the only place in Indo-China that is 100% non-Chinese. haha...


nope. As I noted somewhere in the thread, the recent scientific findings show the Viet people most likely came from the Sea. The first Viets settled down in the Red River delta and mixed with the locals (of course Chinese, too) over the times.

So actually we came from the seafarer.


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## Snomannen

EastSea said:


> I watched the news on TV, she is mostly crying and said on press conference that she and her family is Thai, stop to attack on her family.
> 
> Here is her rival, I think the man is pure Thai.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thai protest leader vows final showdown with government, Thai protest leader Suthep Thuagsuban gestures as he addresses his supporters during an anti-government rally at the government complex in Bangkok,



What the heck, she as a woman was being emotional because she was complaining how her rival pushing her too far that they even attacked her family. She didn't even emphasize herself a Thai. I watched the news too you idiot.

We can see that the terms "pure" and "mixed" always come to your mind first. Such a racist brainless nazi, tut tut tut.


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## INDIC

KirovAirship said:


> Vietnam was a country divided from Chinese dynasty, same as Pakistan which was divided from India and East Prussia (Kaliningrad) was taken away by Russia. You can never claim that Indian Mughal Empire is Pakistan and East Prussian were Russian nor Polish.



When Pakistan was created out of India, it was not about race or ethnicity but forming a Muslim homeland based on religion.


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## Snomannen

INDIC said:


> When Pakistan was created out of India, it was not about race or ethnicity but forming a Muslim homeland based on religion.


Indeed, but still can't claim Indian Mughal.


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## INDIC

KirovAirship said:


> Indeed, but still can't claim Indian Mughal.



I don't think Chinese or Vietnamese identity is even compared to Pakistanis. Pakistan believes Indian history is theirs if related to Muslims. So Mughal or Muslim rule in Mysore or Urdu language they believe it as theirs since it was related to Muslims.


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## Lux de Veritas

KirovAirship said:


> Indeed, but still can't claim Indian Mughal.



Ignore this Indic who is a big troll. Go elsewhere and see what he write especially on Indian female diplomat saga, Sino-India border dispute. He can talk cock, distract forever and you will need to dig out resources to refute him.

He basically is IQ82 and don know WTF he is talking about. 

Best way is to leave him alone and allow him to swim in his India shitt hole and sit back watch Indian diplomat get humiliated and watch Hindutva clown cheering for dark side.


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## Battle of Bach Dang River

Lux de Veritas said:


> This guy is a Chinese, his real name is *袁马克. *
> Category:Thai politicians of Chinese descent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Handsome boy above right is a mestizo. He do not have a "real" Chinese name per se. The old man on the left is another Chinese mestizo. He do not have a real Chinese name.
> 
> I think Vietnam is the only place in Indo-China that is 100% non-Chinese. haha...



In Vietnam, if you are a Hoa (Chinese VNese), I'm sure you can never participated in politics. Of course, still can do private business. That's difference compared to other southeast asian countries.

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## Lux de Veritas

I am just curious. How is Vietnamese able to identify Hoa? Is it because Hoa display Chinese-ness ostentatiously?

I can blend into Thai and Laos if I keep my mouth shut.


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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> you are stupid boy and have low IQ scores then you still do not understand what is the differences.
> 
> Mongolian and Manchurian were people of independence States outside òf Great Wall, with their own Emperor, their own Armies. They invaded in to China, defeated you and ruled you with force. *They were pure Mongolian and Manchurian when they defeated you and ruled you.*
> 
> Ly, Tran , Ho ancestors escaped from China following turmoils, *came to Vietnam from where was native land of Yue people, as refugee. After hundreds years following many generations assimilated by Vietnamese, they were Vietnamized,* they became Vietnamese citizens.
> 
> *They have been fought against invasions of Chinese to defended independence of Vietnam. Its the difference. *
> 
> Understand fake historian ?
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese have an altitude to lie every thing if they can, like that: Ho Chi Minh is hakka.


Sigh,really you should be more courteous obviously you are deeply troubled by what I wrote.

I have already told you Mongols used Jin soldiers in their campaigns in Baghdad and conquest of Southern Song even "Han" generals such as Guo Kan,Qing directly incorporated Han Chinese into their banner armies.

Every dynasty rules the populace with force you would be naive if you thought native "Han" dynasties didn't massacre or discriminate.

Ly ancestors was recorded to come from Northern China which was never until the dominion of the Baiyue states.

As for the other two they still came from China it is unknown if they are more Han or Baiyue,regardless the Baiyue were dwarfed by the Han population.

Even so many Baiyue states were mixed with either sinicized populations or Hua Chinese.

Yuan and Qing sinicized themselves what is so hard to understand?

Furthermore the Tran were able to speak some Chinese language so they still retained some Chineseness.

Qing campaigned against Zunghars,Russians,Burmese,Gurkhas etc trying to defend their borders or expand.

Who is Hu Hou Xiong what are his credentials?

There exists revisionist history in every country I don't think Vietnam is any different.


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## Grand Historian

I only have some simple questions for you Vietnamese nationalists,if you have some sources why don't you prove these questions?

1. Where is the textual and archaeological evidence for the existence of Xich Quy,Van Lang and the Hung Kings?

2.Where is the genetic evidence that Southern Han Chinese are solely composed of Baiyue stock?

3.Where is the evidence the Baiyue identified as one people or as Vietnamese?

4.How has Vietnam influenced China in culture,language,inventions etc?


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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> I am just curious. *How is Vietnamese able to identify Hoa?* Is it because Hoa display Chinese-ness ostentatiously?
> 
> I can blend into Thai and Laos if I keep my mouth shut.


Generally Chinese men and women are taller and have lighter skin. Besides, their face structure looks differently than the Vietnamese. Plus Chinese appearance is more those of East Asians than the Viets people that have some SE Asians gene.

I can guess with 99 per cent likelihood whether a person is Chinese or Vietnamese.

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## BoQ77

to Vietnam, Chinese race similar to Korea and Japan with the 1 lid eyes, ...
It's very easily to point out who is not Vietnamese race in the community.
Vietnamese in the North has skin brighter than the most of Southeast asia, and Vietnamese in the South. Mostly because of climate, sunny condition ... 
while the gene is same between Vietnamese ( Kinh race ) in North and South

to me, it's not important to point out the origin but most important to see 
TO WHICH country, the person recognize himself belong to ...

As you know, 90% Singapore population is Chinese race, but they are proud of being Singapore citizen, and disrespect people recently immigrated from China mainland. 
Same to Hongkong

Another case is USA and Great Britain.

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## Lux de Veritas

I think I should make myself clearer. What if Southern Chinese like Guangdong, Fujian, Singapore and Thai Chinese stay in Vietnam. Can you detect these people?

I cannot even tell Vietnamese in Singapore and local Chinese. I can tell Northern Chinese.


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## Rechoice

Lux de Veritas said:


> This guy is a Chinese, his real name is *袁马克. *
> Category:Thai politicians of Chinese descent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Handsome boy above right is a mestizo. He do not have a "real" Chinese name per se. The old man on the left is another Chinese mestizo. He do not have a real Chinese name.
> 
> I think Vietnam is the only place in Indo-China that is 100% non-Chinese. haha...



*袁马克 or*
Abhisit Vejjajiva is Chinese in origin, his grand father came to Thailand from Vietnam, his ancestor should be Minh Huong people. 

Can we say his grand grand father was mixed with Vietnamese before mixed again with Thai people ?

Abhisit Vejjajiva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






Have you any evident to proof that for both men in picture is Chinese mestizo ?

Our *Công nữ Ngọc Vạn* (公女玉萬), full name *Nguyễn Phúc Ngọc Vạn* (阮福玉萬) daughter of Warlord chúa Sãi Nguyễn Phúc Nguyên (ở ngôi: 1613-1635). She was married to Emperor of Cambodia Chey Chetta II.

Can we say the left man in picture is Vietnamese mestizo ?

Công nữ Ngọc Vạn – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

In Vietnam is around 850,000 Chinese in population of Vietnam 90 million people.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> I think I should make myself clearer. What if Southern Chinese like Guangdong, Fujian, Singapore and Thai Chinese stay in Vietnam. Can you detect these people?
> 
> I cannot even tell Vietnamese in Singapore and local Chinese. I can tell Northern Chinese.



I find out that even most South Chinese from Mainland are northernized, if you go to the urban area in the South China, it is definitely dominated by the northern phenotype.

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## Lux de Veritas

Distinctly upper-class, Mr Abhisit hails from a wealthy family of Thai-Chinese origin. Both his parents were medical professors.
BBC News - Profile: Abhisit Vejjajiva

*One Abhist clan member claim they are my tribe, Taiwanese speaker. *

Vejjajiva ancestry revealed

With reference to Leonie Vejjajiva's letter, I should like, as a member of that family, to clarify and set the record straight.

Our ancestors were Chinese belonging to the dialect group called "*Hokkien*", prevalent in the coastal province of Hokkien or Fujian, with the clan name (Sae) of Ouan (Hokkien pronunciation), or Yuan in Mandarin. They, however, did not come to Siam directly from the Chinese province, but had settled in Kampot, a seaport now in Cambodia but then under Annamese (Vietnamese) rule, from where they set foot on Thai soil in Chanthaburi in the year 1833 during the reign of King Rama III.

The Hokkiens were the first Chinese to arrive in Ayutthaya, in the 18th century, and spread all over the country, especially in the South and Southeast, on the trading sea route from China. The Na Songkla and the Na Ranong families as well as the Krairikshs are of Hokkien descent. This is not to be (but often) confused with another Chinese dialect group known in English as Hakkas but as "Khae" in the Thai language, to which many well-known figures and families belong, such as Mr Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore and the famous Lamsam family of Thailand. So if Leonie Vejjajiva's "theory" about the "tall" Hakkas and the inherited "syndromes of heart, psychiatric and blood diseases" is to be pursued, I would suggest that she turn to such Hakka descendants for verification.

Intermarriage seems to be blamed by Leonie Vejjajiva for the afflictions suffered by her family, presumably her children. At Chantaburi, where there has always been a closely-knit community of people sharing the Hokkien bloodline, marriage between members of community families have over the years been quite common, thus making the numerous descendants "relatives". Such intermarriages are not uncommon in other communities and indeed Thai society generally, without any implication or insinuation as to heath or inherited disease, a fact appreciated even by many foreigners, but incomprehensible perhaps to some who refuse to understand even after spending as many as 50 years in our midst. A more pertinent point to ponder in this case is whether rather than putting the blame on "intermarriage," one should not turn attention to miscegenation, defined as "the inter-breeding of people of different races", especially in light of the unknown or unaccounted for foreign gene.

Leonie Vejjajiva mentioned in her letter about her plan to write a book about my own family. I certainly feel a little flattered, and would wish her well, provided that the book, as written by an educated, well-informed and unprejudiced author, shall refrain from any precipitous judgement or indeed any venom.

*Hun Sen Chinese ancestry. 

"Some officials now mention that Hun Sen's grandfather was Chinese". 

Time - Briton Hadden, Henry Robinson Luce - Google Books*

*In Wiki, Hun Sen was born in Kampong Cham, and was the third child of six children to a peasant family. His father, Hun Neang, was a resident monk in a local Wat in Kampong Cham province before defrocking himself to join the French resistance and married *Hun Sen's mother, Dee Yon in the 1940s. Hun Neang's paternal grandparents were wealthy landowners of Teochew Chinese heritage.

*Hun Sen's wife has roots from Hainan of China.*

เกรียงไกร ปริญญาพล

*The Norodom and Sisowath are quite mestizo according some Chinese articles I have read. Can't cite URL with you at this moment.*



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I find out that even most South Chinese from Mainland are northernized, if you go to the urban area in the South China, it is definitely dominated by the northern phenotype.



That is only true to some extend in Shenzhen and Pearl River Delta. Places like Guangzhou, Guangdong province, Guangxi, HK, Fujian and Taiwan are very Southern Chinese.

Surprisingly Yunan Han Chinese are quite Northern Chinese phenotype. The minorities are overwhelmingly Southern Chinese phenotype.

I wonder if Vietnamese can really spot me out as a Chinese. I have been Vietnam and blend in like local if I do not speak. But Northern Chinese are really distinguishable.

I am from Fujian, just like Abhisit.

Just want to ask, if Thaksin, Yingluck, Abhisit walk in Saigon, can you tell the differences?


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> That is only true to some extend in Shenzhen and Pearl River Delta. Places like Guangzhou, Guangdong province, Guangxi, HK, Fujian and Taiwan are very Southern Chinese.
> 
> Surprisingly Yunan Han Chinese are quite Northern Chinese phenotype. The minorities are overwhelmingly Southern Chinese phenotype.
> 
> I wonder if Vietnamese can really spot me out as a Chinese. I have been Vietnam and blend in like local if I do not speak. But Northern Chinese are really distinguishable.
> 
> I am from Fujian, just like Abhisit.
> 
> Just want to ask, if Thaksin, Yingluck, Abhisit walk in Saigon, can you tell the differences?



People's phenotype will vary with age, Yingluck looked more central-northern Chinese when she was young.

Abhisit's father clearly looks more Southeast Asian, but he looks more Chinese than his father.

He also bears some similarity with a famous TV Drama actor from North China.

He probably got some northern phenotype from his Hakka ancestry.


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## Lux de Veritas

Abhisit face is common to Southern Chinese when they get fat. There are a lot of overlapped between Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese phenotype. Yingluck phenotype is common among Southern Chinese girls as well.

I think its not very easy to tell Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese merely by photo. Chinese ourselves can roughly, tell it by behavior, the Mandarin slang and looks when having face to face meeting.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> Abhisit face is common to Southern Chinese when they get fat. There are a lot of overlapped between Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese phenotype. Yingluck phenotype is common among Southern Chinese girls as well.
> 
> I think its not very easy to tell Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese merely by photo. Chinese ourselves can roughly, tell it by behavior and looks when having face to face meeting.



He looks North Chinese with some Southeast Asian input, hence this is the South Chinese look.

BTW, they are all mixed, they will look very different with age.

I think South Chinese got more Southeast Asian influence overall, but it is not always easy to tell them apart from a North Chinese.

Here is the Taiwanese actor Wallace Ho, but his ancestry is 100% North Chinese. Can you tell him apart?


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## BoQ77

Lux de Veritas said:


> I think I should make myself clearer. What if Southern Chinese like Guangdong, Fujian, Singapore and Thai Chinese stay in Vietnam. Can you detect these people?
> 
> I cannot even tell Vietnamese in Singapore and local Chinese. I can tell Northern Chinese.


*
Lý Long Tường* (李龍祥; 1174–?) was a prince of the Lý Dynasty of Đại Việt (in modern-day Vietnam) and later became Lee of Hwasan, a general of Korea. He is an ancestor of one branch of the Lee (or Rhee) family today in both South and North Korea.[1]

Tường was born in 1174, the seventh son of Emperor Lý Anh Tông (who reigned from 1138–75) and his consort Le My Nga. He was appointed the Great National Tutor.[2]

In 1225, Trần Thủ Độ overthrew the Lý Dynasty by introducing his nephew Trần Cảnh to the imperial court to serve the incumbent Empress Lý Chiêu Hoàng, he then orchestrated a political marriage between Trần Cảnh and Lý Chiêu Hoàng and thereafter forced Lý Chiêu Hoàng to abdicate in favour of her husband Trần Cảnh. This marked the end of the Lý Dynasty and the beginning of the Trần Dynasty. With the Trần family having just gained the throne, Trần Thủ Độ ordered the massacre of the Lý family members and forced all of its descendants to change their surname to Nguyen, and sent them to the northern mountainous areas.

*Contents*

1 Life in exile
2 Defeat of the Mongol invaders
3 Descendants in Korea
4 References
5 External links
*Life in exile*


 This section *does not cite any references or sources*. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. _(June 2011)_
In 1226, (Kien Trung's year of the Second Trần Dynasty of Thai Tong), in order to avoid further bloodshed by the Trần family, Lý Long Tường, together with 6000 mandarins and servants departed from the Than Phu (now Thanh Hóa Province) estuary and fled to the South China Sea in three large ships. They carried relics with them, including the imperial crown, imperial costumes, and the heaven imperial sword (Thượng phương bảo kiếm). After a month on the high seas, they were forced to land in Taiwan due to a typhoon. When Lý Long Tường decided to leave, his son Ly Long Hien was severely ill and had to stay in Taiwan together with 200 mandarins, followers and servants. Lý Long Tường continued northwards to Ongjin County and then on to Haeju, Hwanghae in the Yellow Sea. Legend has it that the Korean king Kojong of the Goryeo Dynasty (1192–1259) had dreamt of a grand phoenix flying from the south and landing in his nation. Therefore, he ordered the local government of Hae-ju to give the Vietnamese royal refugees a red-carpeted welcome and allow them to live in a manor in his country.

Tuong and his companions started their culture of fishing and breeding. He also opened a school for literature (poetry, rhythmical prose and worship rituals) and a school to teach martial arts - the art of war. Thousands of local students joined his two schools.

*Defeat of the Mongol invaders*
In 1232, an army of the Mongol Empire led by General Sartai launched an attack on Korea by both sea and land. The troops, using the waterways, attacked Hwang-hae but were defeated by the army and the local inhabitants led by Ly Long Tuong.[_citation needed_] Ly Long Tuong always rode a white horse and as a result, was dubbed the "White Horse General."[_citation needed_]

In 1253, the Mongol army led by the great Khan Mongca launched a second attack on Korea. The Yuan-Mongol army, led by Tang Ji, attacked Hwang-hae overland and by using the waterways. Lý Long Tường, although by then over 70 years old, led the army and the local inhabitants to victory after a five-month campaign.[_citation needed_] As a result of this important triumph, the Korean king renamed Chen-san (Hangul: ; Hanja: 鎭山) Hwa-san (花山) and appointed Ly Long Tuong Hwa-san a General. The location of the Mongol army surrender was called the Gate of Surrender Acceptance (受降門; _Su-hang-mun_). The Korean king also had a pillar erected here to honour Ly Long Tuong. (The pillar can still be seen today).[_citation needed_]

When Lý Long Tường died, he was buried at the foot of Mount Di A near Panmunjeom (板門店).[_citation needed_] The mountain peak (Kwang-dea) where Lý Long Tường always sat to look southwards and cried is now called the "Peak of Nostalgia" (望國壇).

*Descendants in Korea*
Today, there are some 1500 households in North Korea and 600 in South Korea with connections to Lý Long Tường.[3] A descendant of Lý Long Tường, Lee Chang Kun (Ly Xuong Can), the director of Golden Bridge Finance Group visits Lý's temple in Dinh Bang village in Bắc Ninh Province every year with his family living and sends money to help in the reconstruction of the temple. He has also invested in local projects and together with this family took up Vietnamese citizenship in 2010. His son born in 1997 was named Ly Viet Quoc.[4] At the end of 1995, a report on Lý Long Tường was broadcast by South Korean TV channel KBS.[_citation needed_]

*------------*
*Until now Lee Chang Kun said, there's less than 1/1000 % of Viet blood in their body after nearly 800 years stays in Korea, but they always look at southward and consider them as Vietnamese.*

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## ChineseTiger1986

North Vietnamese hate South Vietnamese and think they are ugly and annoying.

Check the comments in this video.


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## Lux de Veritas

You cannot even tell set Chinese apart from some Malay, deep deep South in Indonesia. But some Northern Chinese, especially male has a kind of Mongol/Korean look but that Southern Chinese has those looks as well, but not that prevalent.

Below are Malay






Borneo Dayak Kadazan






Borneo Dayak Iban







Borneo Dayak Penan






Borneo Dayak Penan





Borneo Dayak Penan


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## ChineseTiger1986

All the people above look Southeast Asian, except the girl in the last pic. But she is too young, i bet that she will look more Southeast Asian when she is getting older.

And no, North Chinese don't look like Mongolians and Koreans, they don't always have the small eyes and flat face. Most North Chinese have long and narrow nose, but the eyes can depend, some have large eyes, while some have small eyes.

The oversea Chinese in ASEAN are mixed, they don't represent the mainstream look in China.

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## Lux de Veritas

When I go Northern China, most people say I look like Yunnan minorities but I am 100% Fujian Quanzhou. All the above Malay pics are common in Southern Chinese.

Below is Athena Chu, a 100% Southern Chinese, from Guangdong. She can pass of as Vietnamese or Thai.





Does Athena Chu looks SE Asian, Pinoy, Vietnamese, Thai or Chinese minorities?


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## BoQ77

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> North Vietnamese hate South Vietnamese and think they are ugly and annoying.
> 
> Check the comments in this video.



The video not as you expressed, dont know what you want to express ... pal...
do you understand the language in the video ?

-------
Beside that, in 1 country, the fact that the different accent from different regions made the like or dislike is the common issue all over the world.

For your information, we dislike the Chinese voice utmost. 
A group of Chinese tourists aboard is a potential annoying source.

Lux / don't talk about the look anymore ...
We love Korean actresses althought know that's the plastic surgery product.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> When I go Northern China, most people say I look like Yunnan minorities but I am 100% Fujian Quanzhou. All the above Malay pics are common in Southern Chinese.
> 
> Below is Athena Chu, a 100% Southern Chinese, from Guangdong. She can pass of as Vietnamese or Thai.
> 
> View attachment 12055
> 
> Does Athena Chu looks SE Asian, Pinoy, Vietnamese, Thai or Chinese minorities?



She doesn't look Vietnamese, but she looks intermediate between Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian, just like many South Chinese.

Also, her phenotype was more northern when she was young, when time goes on, her phenotype started to shift more toward southern. This is also a common trait for many South Chinese.


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## Lux de Veritas

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> She doesn't look Vietnamese, but she looks intermediate between Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian, just like many South Chinese.
> 
> Also, her phenotype was more northern when she was young, when time goes on, her phenotype started to shift more toward southern. This is also a common trait for many South Chinese.



Its not age, its her skin color, hairstyle and her dressing. She can pass of as Vietnamese, Laotian and Thai just by tanning.

Have you been SE Asia? You will be surprise to find Laotian or Indonesian fairer and look more "Chinese" than many dark Northern Chinese girls.

Below General Suharto, got quite a Chinese look


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## ChineseTiger1986

Athena Chu's most recognizable role is Huang Rong, one of most popular female protagonists in Jin Yong's novels.

Huang Rong's origin is from northern Zhejiang near Shanghai, i'd say the phenotype of the young Athena can fit into the area around Shanghai, while right now she looks like a typical Cantonese woman.



Lux de Veritas said:


> Its not age, its her skin color, hairstyle and her dressing. She can pass of as Vietnamese, Laotian and Thai just by tanning.
> 
> *Have you been SE Asia? You will be surprise to find Laotian or Indonesian fairer and look more "Chinese" than many dark Northern Chinese girls.*
> 
> Below General Suharto, got quite a Chinese look



Sure, many Southeast Asians can have the fair complexion, but they don't have the high nose bridge of North Chinese.

Athena Chu's nose bridge is not very flat and low, that makes her not very Vietnamese, although she clearly got some Southeast Asian influence.


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## Lux de Veritas

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Athena Chu's most recognizable role is Huang Rong, one of most popular female protagonists in Jin Yong's novels.
> 
> Huang Rong's origin is from northern Zhejiang near Shanghai, i'd say the phenotype of the young Athena can fit into the area around Shanghai, while right now she looks like a typical Cantonese woman.



I think you may want to go really deep deep into SE Asia and see the phenotype.
Below is Vietnamese woman soldiers. Do they look northern Chinese?











There is so much overlapped between Southern Chinese, Vietnamese especially, that I think it would be quite a conceit to say that the groups are very distinguishable.

When I visited Vietnam, non of Vietnamese think I am foreigner. When I visited Beijing, they think I look minority.

I cannot recognize Vietnamese in Singapore unless they open their mouth. I am still able to figure out who is Northern Chinese.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> I think you may want to go really deep deep into SE Asia and see the phenotype.
> Below is Vietnamese woman soldiers. Do they look northern Chinese?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is so much overlapped between Southern Chinese, Vietnamese especially, that I think it would be quite a conceit to say that the groups are very distinguishable.
> 
> When I visited Vietnam, non of Vietnamese think I am foreigner. When I visited Beijing, they think I look minority.
> 
> I cannot recognize Vietnamese Singaporean unless they open their mouth. I am still able to figure out who is Northern Chinese.



Sometimes using celebrities as the phenotype is not a good idea.

BTW, these girls can pass as the Chinese minorities in the Southwest areas.

But the South Chinese from Mainland China are still closer to the northern phenotype, while those oversea Chinese lived in Southeast Asia are much more southern in there phenotype.

Also, not all South Chinese have southern phenotype, the South Chinese from Shanghai/Zhejiang/Jiangsu/Anhui/Hubei/Hunan/Jiangxi/Sichuan/Guizhou/Yunnan/Chongqing all have more dominant northern phenotype.

Only the South Chinese from Fujian and Guangdong/Guangxi/Hainan have stronger southern phenotype, but the modern Cantonese from Guangdong also love to marry North Chinese or other South Chinese with northern phenotype, so the phenotype in Guangdong is also rapidly switching toward northern.

You can only say that the oversea Chinese in Southeast Asia are closer to the local Southeast Asians, not the South Chinese from Mainland China.

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## Lux de Veritas

Below is Vietnamese girls. The have the more "Chinese type" and more "Champa type". Your claims that Cantonese love to marry Northern type is BS.


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## ChineseTiger1986

The beauty of the North Chinese girl right now is perceived as the standard beauty in China and East Asia.

Just go to some random forums in HK, most of them think that the Chinese girls with northern phenotype are physically more attractive. Although they still believe that North Chinese are poor and look down on them.


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## StarCraft_ZT

I've worked together with two Viet girls on my project, they are darker than average Chinese girls.


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## Lux de Veritas

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The beauty of the North Chinese girl right now perceives as the standard beauty in China and East Asia.
> 
> Just go to the random forum in HK, most of them think that the Chinese girls with northern phenotype are more physically attractive. Although they still believe that North Chinese are poor and look down on them.



The Northern and Southern Chinese perception of beautiful girl has quite a big overlapped. Most preferred chiseled feature, white complexion as good looking. The northern Chinese are fairer but Southern Chinese are more chiseled. 

You go forum and many will think Vietnamese girls, Thai girls, probably Jiangsu, Chongqing and Sichuan are good looking. Not too many praise the Hebei, Shannxi, Inner Mongolia, North East, which are the typical northern Chinese girls.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Cantonese are pretty aggressive when it comes to defend their local culture.

They will love to marry a beautiful North Chinese girl, but meanwhile they will also force them to learn and to speak Cantonese at home. Many Cantonese want to become physically more North Chinese, but only culturally they still want to retain Cantonese.

We Shanghainese are much more softer when it comes to defend our local culture, we marry a North Chinese girl who can only speak Mandarin, when we will pander her to only speak Mandarin at home.

That's why the local culture in Shanghai is more easy to be assimilated by the North Chinese culture.



Lux de Veritas said:


> The Northern and Southern Chinese perception of beautiful girl has quite a big overlapped. Most preferred chiseled feature, white complexion as good looking. The northern Chinese are fairer but Southern Chinese are more chiseled.
> 
> *You go forum and many will think Vietnamese girls, Thai girls, probably Jiangsu, Chongqing and Sichuan are good looking.* Not too many praise the Hebei, Shannxi, Inner Mongolia, North East, which are the typical northern Chinese girls.



Most of them still think North China will produce more attractive girls.

BTW, Jiangsu/Chongqing/Sichuan are South Chinese with northern phenotype.


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## Lux de Veritas

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Cantonese are pretty aggressive when it comes to defend their local culture.
> 
> They will love to marry a beautiful North Chinese girl, but meanwhile they will also force them to learn and to speak Cantonese at home. Many Cantonese want to become physically more North Chinese, but only culturally they still want to retain Cantonese.
> 
> We Shanghainese are much more softer when it comes to defend our local culture, we marry a North Chinese girl who can only speak Mandarin, when we will pander her to only speak Mandarin at home.
> 
> That's why the local culture in Shanghai is more easy to be assimilated by the North Chinese culture.



Myself lament the lost of Taiwanese language as well. I do not know about Shanghai-nese but I think Cantonese is more expressive than Mandarin. If Taiwan break off from China, they will enshrine Taiwanese and claim it got nothing to do with China.

The central China phenotype is mixed, you cannot say they are northern. They are mixed. And Northern and Southern Chinese are so overlapped that they are not mutually exclusive.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> Myself lament the lost of Taiwanese language as well. I do not know about Shanghai-nese but I think Cantonese is more expressive than Mandarin. If Taiwan break off from China, they will enshrine Taiwanese and claim it got nothing to do with China.
> 
> The central China phenotype is mixed, you cannot say they are northern. They are mixed. And Northern and Southern Chinese are so overlapped that they are not mutually exclusive.



Cantonese in fact admire the physical appearance of North Chinese, they only want to be Cantonese culturally.

Many Cantonese posters in Mainland China always use the attractive Cantonese people with northern phenotype to represent themselves.

Sometimes, when there is a flame war between North Chinese and Cantonese, Cantonese used to attack North Chinese such as flat face and small eyes as stereotype.

But this is not true, many North Chinese don't have flat face and small eyes.


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## Lux de Veritas

You think Southern Chinese admire places like Shanxi, Shannxi, Gansu, Hebei, you must dreaming. 他们是南方富裕省份扶贫的对象。每年高考，还要给他们优惠。

Below girls of Shanxi, Northern China






Girls of Jilin, Northern China






Girls of Jilin, Northern China


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> You think Southern Chinese admire places like Shanxi, Shannxi, Gansu, Hebei, you must dreaming.
> 
> Below girls of Shanxi, Northern China
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Girls of Jilin, Northern China
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Girls of Jilin, Northern China



Not all North Chinese are beautiful, but there are many of them.

The most beautiful girls in North China are in the cities like Harbin and Dalian.

I will soon post the pics of the average young girls in Harbin, just wait.


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## Lux de Veritas

As a Southern Chinese, honestly speaking I think there are a lot of pretty girls in Thailand, Vietnam, Laos and Taiwan. I wouldn't even say Singaporean girls are beautiful.


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> North Vietnamese hate South Vietnamese and think they are ugly and annoying.
> 
> Check the comments in this video.



don't lie kid.

What do Shanghai_ren think about Peking_ren and inverse ? just dont make propaganda of CPC here.

I have been worked for a time for State Own Campamny, there are two boss are South Vietnamese, they belong to the best whom I could worked therewith.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> As a Southern Chinese, honestly speaking I think there are a lot of pretty girls in Thailand, Vietnam, Laos and Taiwan. I wouldn't even say Singaporean girls are beautiful.
> View attachment 12059



Many Southeast Asian girls are indeed beautiful.

But if you ask a Cantonese man to choose between a Northeast Chinese girl and a Vietnamese girl to marry, i bet he will choose the Northeast Chinese girl 9 out of 10 times. But he will also indeed force her to learn Cantonese in order to preserve his local culture.

In Mainland China, the North Chinese beauty is more appreciated. This even applies to Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Here is the average street girls in Harbin.

美女之都——哈尔滨（转自天涯）_中华城市吧_百度贴吧


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## Rechoice

StarCraft_ZT said:


> I've worked together with two Viet girls on my project, they are darker than average Chinese girls.



Skin color can depend mostly on the sunshine. Any case, we proud for what belong to our ethnic identity.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> Skin color can depend mostly on the sunshine. Any case, we proud for what belong to our ethnic identity.



Yeah, but most Vietnamese prefer light skin color.

Even one of your members "Viet" also claimed that Vietnam is a Northeast Asian country.


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## Rechoice

Lux de Veritas said:


> As a Southern Chinese, honestly speaking I think there are a lot of pretty girls in Thailand, Vietnam, Laos and Taiwan. I wouldn't even say Singaporean girls are beautiful.
> View attachment 12059



I read some old book of China, it said that Qi Guo girls are most betiful girls in China. If I do not make my mistake, there is Shandong Province in China same Hometown of Jiang Jing, she is third wife of Mao Zedong.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> I read some old book of China, it said that Qi Guo girls are most betiful girls in China. If I do not make my mistake, there is Shandong Province in China same Hometown of Jiang Jing, she is third wife of Mao Zedong.



Jiang Qing is an average woman.

BTW, ever heard of Xi Shi? Her birthplace is from Zhejiang, very close to the place of my maternal ancestry.

I remember many Viet members believe she is Baiyue, if she was truly a Baiyue woman, then good for you.


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yeah, but most Vietnamese prefer light skin color.
> 
> Even one of your members "Viet" also claimed that Vietnam is a Northeast Asian country.



skin color is important item for talking about the bouty, its world wide acepted. Viet+ and EastSea prefer in to different idea how it looks like. I think its normal even both my countryman born in Nhatrang, the town is located in Middle Vietnam.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Jiang Qing is an average woman.
> 
> BTW, ever heard of Xi Shi? Her birthplace is from Zhejiang, very close to the place of my maternal ancestry.
> 
> I remember many Viet members believe she is Baiyue, if she was truly a Baiyue woman, then good for you.



Yes, she is Tây Thi with the name translated in to Vietnamese. Bravo, congratulation for you, correctly she is Wu Yue girl.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> skin color is important item for talking about the bouty, its world wide acepted. Viet+ and EastSea prefer in to different idea how it looks like. I think its normal even both my countryman born in Nhatrang, the town is located in Middle Vietnam.



All East Asian countries have a tradition of favoring the light skin color, but it mostly for women, men don't matter. The women with light skin are perceived to be more feminine.

But men with tanned skin could be considered as a sign of masculinity.


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> All East Asian countries have a tradition of favoring the light skin color, but it mostly for women, men don't matter. The women with light skin are perceived to be more feminine.
> 
> But men with tanned skin could be considered as a sign of masculinity.



One mỏre thing I can agree with you, if you are man looks at as beautiful, people think you are guy.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> *North Vietnamese* hate South Vietnamese and think they are ugly and annoying.
> 
> Check the comments in this video.


That is not new. In Vietnam, Northerner dislike Southerner and vice versa. That is due to the country history, when both parts were divided, ruled by different dynasty families or different political systems.



Lux de Veritas said:


> I think you may want to go really deep deep into SE Asia and see the phenotype.
> Below is Vietnamese woman soldiers. Do they look northern Chinese?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is so much overlapped between Southern Chinese, Vietnamese especially, that I think it would be quite a conceit to say that the groups are very distinguishable.
> 
> *When I visited Vietnam, non of Vietnamese think I am foreigner.* When I visited Beijing, they think I look minority.
> 
> *I cannot recognize Vietnamese in Singapore unless they open their mouth.* I am still able to figure out who is Northern Chinese.


lol that means you look more Viet than Chinese. welcome to the club. 
here is a pic: Viet girls in Singapore.







here Vietnamese students are seen looking for information on study in Singapore at an education fair in Can Tho City, Vietnam.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yeah, but most Vietnamese prefer *light skin color*.
> 
> Even one of your members "Viet" also claimed that Vietnam is a Northeast Asian country.


That only applies to Viet girls. They hate the sun. Because dark skin refers to poor people. So most when going out they wait until the sun goes down, or they cover their body with materials to protect the skin.


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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> As a Southern Chinese, honestly speaking I think there are a lot of pretty girls in Thailand, Vietnam, Laos and Taiwan. I wouldn't even say Singaporean girls are beautiful.
> View attachment 12059


the picture is a bit old, I believe. Today the law requires everyone has to carry helmet. So you can´t see how they look without mask.


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## elis

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> North Vietnamese hate South Vietnamese and think they are ugly and annoying.
> 
> Check the comments in this video.


Yes they are more beautiful and whiter. They have more boobs and ***

Probably because the french soldiers have stationned in the North for more time

But the problem is they are corrupted and uncompetent, or rather uncompetent because corrupted

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> I only have some simple questions for you *Vietnamese nationalists*,if you have some sources why don't you prove these questions?


can you tell me who in your eyes are Vietnamese nationalists? What are the criteria? I can see you love using this word.


Grand Historian said:


> 1. Where is the textual and archaeological evidence for the existence of Xich Quy,Van Lang and the *Hung Kings*?


this question was raised several times over and over again. And you are here again. Okay, actually the final evidence of the existence is still missing. Are you happy now?

Again we are talking over the period that might have existed 5,000 years ago. Long long ago. However, one thing is sure: people in Vietnam believe it, regardless of others do or not.
History of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







Grand Historian said:


> 2.Where is the genetic evidence that Southern Han Chinese are solely composed of Baiyue stock?


what?


Grand Historian said:


> 3.Where is the evidence the Baiyue identified as one people or as Vietnamese?


what the fck?


Grand Historian said:


> 4.How has Vietnam influenced China in culture,language,inventions etc?


you are a funny person. I like you. Here is my answer: for 1,000 years we had been Chinese citizens.

And now your turn. Can you tell me how Japan and Western nations have contributed in Chinese cultures, custom, history and inventions?


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## Lux de Veritas

Singapore most elite school girls. *RJC*. They are not very good looking I must admit. See their phenotype, its quite unique. Most of them are 100% Chinese yet they do not look very "Chinese". I believe its due to their anglicization that exude certain composure as well as their choice of hairstyle and dressing that give them a unique feel.

They are very acultural and they are shallow in Chinese culture.

Occasionally, there are good looking ones but the frequency is way lower than in Vietnam, Thailand or Laos.



















Singaporean most elite school boys. Most are 100% pure Chinese. They can pass of that in the Southern China, but in Northern China, some of them could be taken for minorities or people will just tell that they are Southern Chinese.







The Malaysian Chinese looks the same. The Indonesian Chinese is very mixed and many has a certain salient "Indonesian feature". The Thai Chinese girls look best. Thai Chinese girls exude a lot of feminine. The Vietnamese girls are extremely good looking. The Vietnamese girl good look fit exactly 100% the way Singaporean guys perceive to be beautiful.

In short, the "good looking girl" in Singaporean men's perception occur in high frequency in Thai and Vietnamese girl population.

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## Viet

*ha ha ha ...*it is also a personal taste. I would prefer Chinese over Viet girl.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> *ha ha ha ...*it is also a personal taste. I would prefer Chinese over Viet girl.



Which one you prefer? The beautiful petite type of the southern phenotype or the beautiful model type of the northern phenotype?

The North Chinese women with too many Mongol or Korean features are not considered to be attractive. Same for the South Chinese women, too many Southeast Asian features won't be considered attractive as well.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> *Which one you prefer?* The beautiful petite type of the southern phenotype or the beautiful model type of the northern phenotype?
> 
> The North Chinese women with too many Mongol or Korean features are not considered to be attractive. Same for the South Chinese women, too many Southeast Asian features won't be considered attractive as well.


There is an old saying in Vietnam: "the other mountain is always more beautiful than the one where I stand on." No matter where she comes from China, she should look beautiful and natural. 

Zheng Shuang





Li Qin

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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> There is an old saying in Vietnam: "the other mountain is always more beautiful than the one where I stand on." No matter where she comes from China, she should look beautiful and natural.
> 
> Zheng Shuang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Li Qin



I have two questions for you, and your sincere reply would be much appreciated.

Q1, Where or through what source you know Zheng Shuang and Li Qin? I never heard of Li Qin, a new actress?

Q2, Does your wife know that you post other women's photo online?


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## INDIC

Vietnamese names sound very different from Chinese names. How did you pronounce them when you used Chinese characters, did the pronunciation differs in different regions. @EastSea @Viet


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## StarCraft_ZT

INDIC said:


> Vietnamese names sound very different from Chinese names. How did you pronounce them when you used Chinese characters, did the pronunciation differs in different regions. @EastSea @Viet



Yes, same question here, especially the family name "Nguyễn".

Nguyễn is translated into "阮" in China, which pronounced "ruan", "阮" is one of Chinese family names. 阮瑀, a great litterateur living in second century A.D.


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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> can you tell me who in your eyes are Vietnamese nationalists? What are the criteria? I can see you love using this word.


Vietnamese that distort history to advance some agenda,defend Vietnam in every situation,believes there is a pure Kinh ethnicty.



Viet said:


> this question was raised several times over and over again. And you are here again. Okay, actually the final evidence of the existence is still missing. Are you happy now?
> 
> Again we are talking over the period that might have existed 5,000 years ago. Long long ago. However, one thing is sure: people in Vietnam believe it, regardless of others do or not.
> History of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That is a satisfactory answer.

However I still wonder why members such as EastSea spam a picture of Van Lang owning Southern China.



Viet said:


> what?


What I'm asking is how do Vietnamese members know that Southern Han Chinese are only descendants of Baiyue.



Viet said:


> what the fck?



Several Vietnamese members claimed that Baiyue are Vietnamese and that Southern China is lost "Viet" land.



Viet said:


> you are a funny person. I like you. Here is my answer: for 1,000 years we had been Chinese citizens.
> 
> And now your turn. Can you tell me how Japan and Western nations have contributed in Chinese cultures, custom, history and inventions?



Japan has mainly contributed in vocabulary such as ethnicity,television,electricity etc.

Historically Japan was defeated twice under the Tang and Ming and Qing and ROC didnt' do so well.

Otherwise the culture flow in ancient was pretty one sided to Japan except some Japanese swords were imported to China.

There is far too many Western influences on China especially during modern times.

Previously a Vietnamese member mentioned that a Chinese author was distorting Ho Chi Min's lineage however we see that a Vietnamese author distorts Chinese history.

The Contents of “Vietnam: The Springhead of Eastern Cultural Civilization” | Freedom For Vietnam[/quote]


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## Rechoice

INDIC said:


> Vietnamese names sound very different from Chinese names. How did you pronounce them when you used Chinese characters, did the pronunciation differs in different regions. @EastSea @Viet



Chinese is Sino-Tibetan language, Vietnamese is part of of the Austro-asiatic language.



> Vietnamese as part of the Mon–Khmer branch of the Austroasiatic language family (a family that also includes Khmer, spoken in Cambodia, as well as various tribal and regional languages, such as the Munda and Khasi languages spoken in eastern India, and others in southern China). Later, Mường was found to be more closely related to Vietnamese than other Mon–Khmer languages, and a Việt-Mường sub-grouping was established. As data on more Mon–Khmer languages were acquired, other minority languages (such as Thavưng, Chứt languages, Hung, etc.) were found to share Việt-Mường characteristics, and the _Việt-Mường_ term was renamed to _Vietic_. The older term _Việt-Mường_ now refers to a lower sub-grouping (within an eastern Vietic branch) consisting of Vietnamese dialects, Mường dialects, and Nguồn (of Quảng Bình Province).[9]



Vietnamese language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the past we have been used Chinese characters for writing, like Eastsea 東海 (donghai) Viet 越 (Yue).

In different region in Vietnam people can speak different accent (with limited words only), there is not dialect. Because we know that and can understand clearly. For example the word Viet Nam, Hanoian say Việt Nam, Southerner Vietnamese say: Djệt Nam but writing is correct Vietnam.

sorry for my jump in.


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## NiceGuy

Lux de Veritas said:


> The Malaysian Chinese looks the same. The Indonesian Chinese is very mixed and many has a certain salient "Indonesian feature". The Thai Chinese girls look best. Thai Chinese girls exude a lot of feminine. The Vietnamese girls are extremely good looking. The Vietnamese girl good look fit exactly 100% the way Singaporean guys perceive to be beautiful.
> 
> In short, the "good looking girl" in Singaporean men's perception occur in high frequency in Thai and Vietnamese girl population.


My wife is younger than me 10 years old,born in Thai Binh province(North VietNam), 1.59m, 45kg white skin, pretty, hard working, she's a nanny in a kindergarten and always listen to me even some time I get mad .(I'm not a rich man, I dont have car, only Wave alpha motorbike)

I dont think u can find a girl like that in Singapore

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## EastSea

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Yes, same question here, especially the family name "Nguyễn".
> 
> Nguyễn is translated into "阮" in China, which pronounced "ruan", "阮" is one of Chinese family names. 阮瑀, a great litterateur living in second century A.D.



family name "Nguyễn" is typical Vietnamese name. I don't know exactly but is around 38 % of population Vietnam has "Nguyễn" family name.

In Vietnam we have about 63 family names which got more than 0.1 % of 90 million

most of family name in Vietnam can translated in to Chinese with equivalent name from a time Han Ji was official writing system in Vietnam, like "Nguyễn" to be translated into Chinese "阮", which pronounced "ruan" in China.

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## BoQ77

Nguyễn is the last royal dynasty in Vietnam. That's why there's so many Nguyen surname.

Because they tend to hide the surname of previous dynasty, like the case, Lý dynasty


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Which one you prefer? The beautiful petite type of the southern phenotype or the beautiful model type of the northern phenotype?
> 
> The North Chinese women with too many Mongol or Korean features are not considered to be attractive. Same for the South Chinese women, too many Southeast Asian features won't be considered attractive as well.



her name is translated in to Vietnamese : Cận Diệp, could you know where does she come from ? I think she is northern Chinese girl.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Vietnamese that distort history to advance some agenda,defend Vietnam in every situation,believes there is a pure Kinh ethnicty.


there is NO such thing: "pure" Kinhs. As I said elsewhere, the newest scientific (genetics) findings say the first Viets most likely came from the Sea (perhaps islands in the Pacific) and mixed with Locals when they settled down in Red River delta. 


Grand Historian said:


> That is a satisfactory answer.
> However I still wonder why members such as EastSea spam a picture of Van Lang owning Southern China.


EastSea does not spam.
Allow me to make a comparison. Do you believe to God?

In Germany many people believe to God. If you ask them for historical evidence for the existence of God, you will get a lengthy answer that perhaps does not satisfy you.

Again we are talking over the period that "might" have happened 5,000 years ago. Understandably it is difficult to find historic evidence in tropical Vietnam, where regular monsoon rains wash everything away. Secondly the events occured in times where country borders were not clearly marked. Ancient Van Lang might have existed (maybe not), along with ancient China, where borders were overlapped. Last but not least, I don´t know, either whether any writing records were made for this period.

Only one thing is sure, people in Vietnam celebrate Hung Kings.

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## Viet

StarCraft_ZT said:


> I have two questions for you, and your sincere reply would be much appreciated.
> 
> Q1, Where or through what *source* you know Zheng Shuang and Li Qin? I never heard of *Li Qin*, a new actress?


Xinhua

Li Qin, a Sichuan girl, actress






StarCraft_ZT said:


> Q2, Does your wife know that you post other women's photo online?


you are a funny dude. of course not.

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## BoQ77

If you keep persuading everyone, Vietnamese people originated from China, how you think if those Chinese-origin people dislike Chinese origin ?
when they keep confirming they're Vietnamese race not Chinese race at all

So proud huh ??


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## Lux de Veritas

Lets assume Vietnamese did not came from China. Like Mr Viet has said, Vietnamese came from the sea. The seafarers around this region are Malay. So Vietnamese are related to Malay. That is plausible.

Then came a bunch of "Chinese" who conquered Vietnam. After 1000 years, Vietnamese fought back and regain independence. 

The Malaysian Malay also got some theory they put forward below. These Islamofacist tell everyone Chinese came from SE Asia. According to their map, seems that Malaysian Malay are the center of the world, and Malaysian Malay give birth to Vietnamese and Chinese. 

DNA suggests China Chinese originated from Southeast Asia | The Online Citizen


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## ChineseTiger1986

The ancestor of the Sino-Tibetan people came from Southeast Asia, but Sino-Tibetan itself was evolved in Central-West China around the Tibetan plateau.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> her name is translated in to Vietnamese : Cận Diệp, could you know where does she come from ? I think she is northern Chinese girl.



She is from Beijing, but most Chinese guys think she is too manly.


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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> there is NO such thing: "pure" Kinhs. As I said elsewhere, the newest scientific (genetics) findings say the first Viets most likely came from the Sea (perhaps islands in the Pacific) and mixed with Locals when they settled down in Red River delta.


If there is no such thing as pure Kinh then why do some Vietnamese members care so much that Han Chinese are mixed?

ie this lost Baiyue nonsense.

Can you show me some genetic sources I'm just curious that's all.



Viet said:


> EastSea does not spam.
> Allow me to make a comparison. Do you believe to God?
> 
> In Germany many people believe to God. If you ask them for historical evidence for the existence of God, you will get a lengthy answer that perhaps does not satisfy you.
> 
> Again we are talking over the period that "might" have happened 5,000 years ago. Understandably it is difficult to find historic evidence in tropical Vietnam, where regular monsoon rains wash everything away. Secondly the events occured in times where country borders were not clearly marked. Ancient Van Lang might have existed (maybe not), along with ancient China, where borders were overlapped. Last but not least, I don´t know, either whether any writing records were made for this period.
> 
> Only one thing is sure, people in Vietnam celebrate Hung Kings.


The image of Van Lang covering Southern China has been posted by EastSea in post 723 and 1070 while the user Rechoice has also shown it in previous threads.

Dai Viet su ky toan thu was written about 3000 years after the first Hung King tell me how is this reliable?

Without any archaeological proof this written passage is useless if there were archaeological artifacts of such importance (such as the oracle bones proved Shang exists then) then maybe there can be a claim.

In the Kham dinh Viet su Thong giam cuong muc

洞庭地夾兩湖實在百粵之北巴蜀猶隔雋滇(今屬雲南) 不相接壤舊史侈大其辭殆與後蜀王之事皆屬傳虛而未之
Dongting is in between the 2 Hu's(Hunan and Hubei),Dongting is north of where the Baiyue lived.
Ba and Shu were separated from Vietnam from Dian(in Yunnan),thus they did not border each other and previous texts overestimates Van Lang's land. The events of Shu Pan and Van Lang's land is thus untrustworthy and unproven.

考也況所分十五部皆交阯朱鳶以內全無一部在北可證其誣也
The 15 divisions of Van Lang are in the areas of Jiaozhi and Zhuyuan,there isn't a single division north of those areas.

Germany and God has nothing to do with this topic.

There was no such state recognized by scholars as Vietnam and China since the Shang did not exist in the earliest reign of Hung kings.

If Van Lang existed the various "Chinese" states would have written about it if Dai Viet su ky toan thu is correct.

In my opinion myth such as the Van Lang/Xia dynasty should be treated as myth and not be used to promote nationalistic agendas.

ie Southern Han Chinese are brainwashed Vietnamese or some nonsense like that.


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## BoQ77

Historian, 

You studied much on historian, I could not argue with you.
Even, right now ... there's always local minor ethnicity ... Vietnam has 55 ethnicity groups. 

The human being, originated from 1 or 2 origin, right?
then they earn more characteristics and turn to many races, right ?

we prefer the who they want to be ... that's Vietnamese, Chinese, African, Pinoy, ... even Singaporean

Another thing, 

You could point out how many Northern ( cannot say China ) occupied Vietnam, how they affect, but still the local residents always consider themselve is independent with Hung King as first kings of their kingdom ( Van Lang ). There's remain, proofs as you want in Hy Cuong hill, Phu Tho province, Vietnam ..

This is Defense forum , if you specialize in historian, I think another forum suitable to you
This topic is for answer to outsiders, as what the host think is true .

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## BoQ77

For you understand, all Vietnam Dynasties afterward consider Lac Long Quan as the root, and Hung Kings as first kings, also the root of the nation. 

That's why all Vietnamese all the time, consider themselve is the Dragon's children ( Lac Long Quan originated Dragon )

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## William Hung

Lux de Veritas said:


> Singapore most elite school girls. *RJC*. They are not very good looking I must admit. See their phenotype, its quite unique. Most of them are 100% Chinese yet they do not look very "Chinese".
> 
> 
> The Malaysian Chinese looks the same.



What about the air hostess from malaysia airline and singapore airline??

90% of them are super beautiful, especially in their tight uniform. They have nice buttss and boobies with big eyes but fair skins  . They don't look 100% chinese but also don't look 100% malay either. Can you tell me what ethnicity most those air hostess belongs to?


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## Indos

Black Flag said:


> What about the air hostess from malaysia airline and singapore airline??
> 
> 90% of them are super beautiful, especially in their tight uniform. They have nice buttss and boobies with big eyes but fair skins  . They don't look 100% chinese but also don't look 100% malay either. Can you tell me what ethnicity most those air hostess belongs to?



Singapore airline has so many stewardess from Indonesia.....especially Jakarta...Many vacancies from that airlines. Big eyes with fair skins is our ladies trait. Indonesian has variety of skin color too....Just go to Jakarta Design Center building...at the highest floor....that place often used by Singapore Airline to recruit our ladies, almost every week, especially Saturday/Sunday you will see the recruitment activities there...


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## Lux de Veritas

Below are the more prevalent view of how O y chromosone haplotype spreads. There are differences but most pointed to the fact that Africa, followed by middle-east, then central asia the the way human being gene move.

The view that gene flows from "SE Asia" could be partly right, but it probably does not give the full picture.

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## BoQ77

I love beautiful ladies, no matter which country they are from.


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## Indos

BoQ77 said:


> I love beautiful ladies, no matter which country they are from.



Same us Mine ...... No Competition feeling when it comes to girls for men like us....


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## William Hung

Indos said:


> Singapore airline has so many stewardess from Indonesia.....especially Jakarta...Many vacancies from that airlines. Big eyes with fair skins is our ladies trait. Indonesian has variety of skin color too....Just go to Jakarta Design Center building...at the highest floor....that place often used by Singapore Airline to recruit our ladies, almost every week, especially Saturday/Sunday you will see the recruitment activities there...



So Jakarta have this kind of women? are they chinese or malay or mix or?






This one not from malaysia airline but the 2 girls on the left side are .











The last picture, they don't have great face, but their bodies are 10/10:


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## Indos

Black Flag said:


> So Jakarta have this kind of women? are they chinese or malay or mix or?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one not from malaysia airline but the 2 girls on the left side are .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last picture, they don't have great face, but their bodies are 10/10:



Two girls that you like can be seen in Jakarta quite many...(Air Asia I believe....Air Asia CEO now resides in Jakarta) especially in the middle class places...like Campuses...Malls...Office buildings....they are native Indonesian just like Malay type of girls I believe...My previous girl friend has similar level with those two girls that you love ......... There are white....light brown...and brown kind of Indonesian girls.....if the face is pretty...the skin is not a problem 
.
In the bottom are Chinese typical type.......but not the pretty Chinese girls...just standard one


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## Lux de Veritas

The similarity of physical appearances, especially among the highly cultured tribe of Indonesia such as Sundanese, and Javanese with Chinese, is a big factor that Chinese can assimilate well in Indonesia today. Another reason being, Indonesians especially the educated one has the secular outlook, instead of espousing Islamofacism.

In comparison, the integration of Chinese with Malaysian Malay has little progress. Malaysian Malay are the "Aceh/Semai" phenotype that make them look not so similar to a lot fo Malay. Their leaders choose to poison them with radical Islam ideology, that today, Malaysian Malays are among the most fervent believre that one should be put to death for leaving Islam. During the late 1990s and early 2000s, the Indonesian Malay Dayak as well as Malay start attacking on Islamofascist the Madurese in Kalimantan, meanwhile protecting the Chinese.

Indonesia is the future of Malay races. Malaysian Malay are now trying very hard to make themselves believe in their own lies that Chinese try to genocide them and Chinese genocide a lot of Malay in the past.

See the followings.

The exciting Malay version
Konspirasi Nam Tien (Cina) Hapuskan Kuasa Melayu? | <? bloginfo('name'); ?>
The more censored English version in Yahoo.
Chinese influx in Malaysia part of ‘southbound invasion’, says historian - Yahoo News



> The increased in Chinese in Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam resulted in a Chinese mestizo call Dai Viet (Vietnamese), that caused Malay to be sidelined in their own countries. They (Chinese mestizo) then evolved into Khmer (Cambodian), Thai, Hmong, Mong, Miao... They strive to make Malay extinct from the face of the earth and they have manged to conquer the Malay world.
> 
> So Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam were former Malay land. Malay there got extinct because China and their hybrid conquered them. Then, she continued
> 
> Chinese are not the only one wanting to conquer the Malay world. Nations of Chinese mestizo are also continuing to destroy Malay.
> 
> "Malays are called lazy and not innovative, but it’s because the knowledge, the peoples who have the knowledge have gone extinct"
> 
> "Foreigners were jealous of us because of what Malays had, the expertise in mining gold and tin."
> 
> "When foreigners came to Tanah Melayu, they grabbed (our riches) and killed Malays, they took over our tin and gold "


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## Fsjal

Black Flag said:


> The last picture, they don't have great face, but their bodies are 10/10:


I think face is an important thing, apart from body.


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## BoQ77

It's not true for someone wear a burqa

I want turning to be Islamic, and get rich and marry to 4 wives


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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> If there is no such thing as pure Kinh then why do some Vietnamese members care so much that Han Chinese are mixed?
> 
> ie this lost Baiyue nonsense.
> 
> Can you show me some genetic sources I'm just curious that's all.
> 
> 
> The image of Van Lang covering Southern China has been posted by EastSea in post 723 and 1070 while the user Rechoice has also shown it in previous threads.
> 
> Dai Viet su ky toan thu was written about 3000 years after the first Hung King tell me how is this reliable?
> 
> Without any archaeological proof this written passage is useless if there were archaeological artifacts of such importance (such as the oracle bones proved Shang exists then) then maybe there can be a claim.
> 
> In the Kham dinh Viet su Thong giam cuong muc
> 
> 洞庭地夾兩湖實在百粵之北巴蜀猶隔雋滇(今屬雲南) 不相接壤舊史侈大其辭殆與後蜀王之事皆屬傳虛而未之
> Dongting is in between the 2 Hu's(Hunan and Hubei),Dongting is north of where the Baiyue lived.
> Ba and Shu were separated from Vietnam from Dian(in Yunnan),thus they did not border each other and previous texts overestimates Van Lang's land. The events of Shu Pan and Van Lang's land is thus untrustworthy and unproven.
> 
> 考也況所分十五部皆交阯朱鳶以內全無一部在北可證其誣也
> The 15 divisions of Van Lang are in the areas of Jiaozhi and Zhuyuan,there isn't a single division north of those areas.
> 
> Germany and God has nothing to do with this topic.
> 
> There was no such state recognized by scholars as Vietnam and China since the Shang did not exist in the earliest reign of Hung kings.
> 
> If Van Lang existed the various "Chinese" states would have written about it if Dai Viet su ky toan thu is correct.
> 
> In my opinion myth such as the Van Lang/Xia dynasty should be treated as myth and not be used to promote nationalistic agendas.
> 
> ie Southern Han Chinese are brainwashed Vietnamese or some nonsense like that.



same story Hua/Xia in China and Hồng Bàng ( :鸿 庞 or 鸿 庞) in Vietnam, there is a period of history at early ancient history, there is is myth.

The book "linh nam chich quai "(嶺南摭怪) "The wonderful tales of Lĩnh Nam" It is based on the folk-tales were collected in the past, the latest version is available printed in Vietnam in 1329, 14 century.

Such folk-tales have been transferred from generation to next generation that in the past land of us was big, but with small population and weak, we could not defend our land and reduced to "small Van Lang" in area of Red river delta and surrounding land.

*Linh nam 嶺南 *is area where folk-tales collected, is the region far more in north of Guangdong and Guangxi.







note that Linh Nan is area below Ngu Linh in the map here under.


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## BoQ77

Vietjet Air uniform





Happy time











Vietnam Airline crews

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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> Lets assume Vietnamese did not came from China. Like Mr Viet has said, Vietnamese came from the sea. The seafarers around this region are Malay. So Vietnamese are related to Malay. That is plausible.
> 
> Then came a bunch of "Chinese" who conquered Vietnam. After 1000 years, Vietnamese fought back and regain independence.
> 
> The Malaysian Malay also got some theory they put forward below. These Islamofacist tell everyone Chinese came from SE Asia. According to their map, seems that Malaysian Malay are the center of the world, and Malaysian Malay give birth to Vietnamese and Chinese.
> 
> DNA suggests China Chinese originated from Southeast Asia | The Online Citizen



People in Indonesia, 4 million people *Minangkabau are* living in West Sumatra Island, claimed that they are Vietnamese came to Indonesia by boat from ancient time.

They have traditional habitats like tooto, yoke stories ... are similar to the Vietnamese.







Phát hiện hậu duệ Hai Bà Trưng ở Indonesia? - Phóng sự - Khám phá - VTC News

’Hậu duệ Hai Bà Trưng’ trên đảo Sumatra - Báo Đồng Nai điện tử


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## Indos

EastSea said:


> People in Indonesia, 4 million people *Minangkabau are* living in West Sumatra Island, claimed that they are Vietnamese came to Indonesia by boat from ancient time.
> 
> They have traditional habitats like tooto, yoke stories ... are similar to the Vietnamese.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phát hiện hậu duệ Hai Bà Trưng ở Indonesia? - Phóng sự - Khám phá - VTC News
> 
> ’Hậu duệ Hai Bà Trưng’ trên đảo Sumatra - Báo Đồng Nai điện tử



4 million in their region...but 3 million are spreading...mostly in Indonesia big city. Singapore first President is also from Minangkabau.....many has higher position in Malaysia as well. It is a political and trader ethnic of native Indonesian....Clever people and respected.....None of you see this tribe go overseas for uneducated work....Most funding father of Indonesian are also from this tribe....including one of two of our Independence proclamers...which are Soekarno (Javanese ) and *Muhammad Hatta* is Minangkabau. First Prime Minister of Indonesia is also Minang Tribe. This tribe is also known as quite Islamic Tribe....Muhammadiyah which is the Wahhabi type of Islam is actually form by Minang (Sumatrans) and Yogya (Central Java) clerics. Sundanese is also very Islamic......Thats why in Minangkabau (West Sumatra) and Sundanese (West Java)...mostly Islamic parties won there. Today West Java (Sundanese) is lead by the governor coming from the most conservative Islamic Party (PKS)....

This tribe (Minang) has some Arabic link according to China voyager....Arab village are seen in West Sumatra since long time ago. Many Indonesian artist are also coming from this tribe. I doubt they come from Vietnam......because I have pure blood of Minangkabau.....and never heard such story.....but according to Minang old people...they believe they come from Alexandre The Great ... (I doubt this story....it just maybe Arab traders who are taller than SEA people) but any way Good luck to Vietnamese Friends for bringing this tribe to your thread

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## William Hung

BoQ77 said:


> I love beautiful ladies, no matter which country they are from.



Yes, very true.

When I was searching for malaysia airline hostess pics, I saw the boliva airline pic:







Now I think bolivia air has the best uniform.



BoQ77 said:


> Vietjet Air uniform
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam Airline crews



The first one is not bad. The bikini girls have good face but their bodies not too good. They need this kind of body:


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## BoQ77

I fly with Thai Airways very often...
So strange, fly forth with beautiful crews, but back without ... 

everytime


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## William Hung

BoQ77 said:


> I fly with Thai Airways very often...
> So strange, fly forth with beautiful crews, but back without ...
> 
> everytime



Because when you haven't eat and you're hungry, all food looks delicious. After you've eaten and you're full, you don't think the food looks good anymore.


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## BoQ77

I realized that Chinese attendants very stylist, some beautiful ... but I didnot see their femininity.

national airlines crews always elegant, but budget airlines has hotness


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## eazzy

What was the golden age of Vietnam ?


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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> same story Hua/Xia in China and Hồng Bàng ( :鸿 庞 or 鸿 庞) in Vietnam, there is a period of history at early ancient history, there is is myth.
> 
> The book "linh nam chich quai "(嶺南摭怪) "The wonderful tales of Lĩnh Nam" It is based on the folk-tales were collected in the past, the latest version is available printed in Vietnam in 1329, 14 century.
> 
> Such folk-tales have been transferred from generation to next generation that in the past land of us was big, but with small population and weak, we could not defend our land and reduced to "small Van Lang" in area of Red river delta and surrounding land.
> 
> *Linh nam 嶺南 *is area where folk-tales collected, is the region far more in north of Guangdong and Guangxi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> note that Linh Nan is area below Ngu Linh in the map here under.


Xia dynasty is as myth therefore Western sinolgoists don't recognize it.

Do realize that the author most likely was Vietnamese not Chinese.

Chinese such as Cantonese don't even have legends about the Hung Kings,Van Lang and Xich Quy.

Even the dating of the text is debated 1370 is the earliest and the authors are disputed.
The Birth of Vietnam - Keith Weller Taylor - Google Books

linh nam chich quai has the same stories as Dai Viet su ky toan thu.

The difference is that it mentions Xich Quy while later texts do not.

東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南至狐猻精國（今占城是也）。
To the East it bordered the Southern sea,the weest BaShu to the North Dong Ting Lake and to the South Hu Sun(Champa).

分國中為十五部（一作郡）：曰越裳、曰交趾、曰朱鳶、曰武寧、曰福祿、日寧海（今南寧處是也）、曰陽泉（一作海）、曰陸海、曰懷驩、曰九真、曰日南、曰真定、曰文郎、曰桂林、曰象郡等部，分歸弟治之。
Van Lang was divided into 15 commanderies:Yuechang,Jiaozhi,Zhuchuan,Wuning,Fulu,Ninghai,Yangquan,Luhai,Huaihuan,Jiuzhen,Rinan,Zhending,Wenlang,Guilin,Xiang,the Hung King's brothers ruled over these lands.

Even Kham dinh Viet su Thong giam cuong muc disagrees with the old texts.

Regardless you are trying to prove that Vietnamese somehow ruled Southern China which is ludicrous.


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## EastSea

Indos said:


> 4 million in their region...but 3 million are spreading...mostly in Indonesia big city. Singapore first President is also from Minangkabau.....many has higher position in Malaysia as well. It is a political and trading ethnic of native Indonesian....Clever people and respected.....None of you see this tribe go overseas for uneducated work....Most funding father of Indonesian are also from this tribe....including one of two of our Independence proclamers...which are Soekarno (Javanese ) and *Muhammad Hatta* is Minangkabau. First Prime Minister of Indonesia is also Minang Tribe. This tribe is also known as quite Islamic Tribe....Muhammadiyah which is the Wahhabi type of Islam is actually form by Minang (Sumatrans) and Yogya (Central Java) clerics. Sundanese is also very Islamic......Thats why in Minangkabau (West Sumatra) and Sundanese (West Java)...mostly Islamic parties won there. Today West Java (Sundanese) is lead by the governor coming from the most conservative Islamic Party (PKS)....
> 
> This tribe (Minang) has some Arabic link according to China voyager....Arab village are seen in West Sumatra since long time ago. Many Indonesian artist are also coming from this tribe. I doubt they come from Vietnam......because I have pure blood of Minangkabau.....and never heard such story.....but according to Minang old people...they believe they come from Alexandre The Great ... (I doubt this story....it just maybe Arab traders who are taller than SEA people) but any way Good luck to Vietnamese Friends for bringing this tribe to your thread



The news is reported by Indonesian elites first base on servey in West Sumatra. There is debated on forum in Vietnam, I wonder about this news and I doubt too.
.



eazzy said:


> What was the golden age of Vietnam ?



Nguen Dynasty, before Invasion of France Colonie. 
Nguyễn Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Vietnam in 1829 under the Nguyễn Dynasty.


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## eazzy

I wonder why we don't learn about French Indochina in school, I don't know much about it...


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## Indos

EastSea said:


> The news is reported by Indonesian elites first base on servey in West Sumatra. There is debated on forum in Vietnam, I wonder about this news and I doubt too.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Nguen Dynasty, before Invasion of France Colonie.
> Nguyễn Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam in 1829 under the Nguyễn Dynasty.



By the way....South East Asian People still has many similarities between each other.....and some of them has more mixed blood with Chinese particularly in Vietnam and Thailand since you have land border with them, not separated by sea like us. For the past 1000 years, I believe many migrate to one another as we are so closed in distance. Indonesian DNA is not really pure by the way.....and the term "Indo" it self suggest it comes from so many different races since Malaca strait is a trading route between Middle East, India, and China since long time ago. And you are actually Indo-China...it means your blood is quite mixed with Chinese. Chinese, Japanese, Germany...I think it has more identical DNA in their people.

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## EastSea

eazzy said:


> I wonder why we don't learn about French Indochina in school, I don't know much about it...



Why ?

After WW II, 1945 Ho Chi Minh proposed that IndoChina to be independent parts of France Federation to prevent any military conflict could happen again with France, but France Govt denied it and liked to apply direct controls on us. De Gaul was idiot.

Viet-France war let a chance to other superpowers intervened in to region. We have been fought against France, USA and China in short time 1945-1990.

It was bitter history period of us 1858 - 1990 after golden time under rule of *Nguen Gia Long* Emperor when Vietnamese people: Christian, Buddhism, Confucian, Caodai, ... were living peacefully.

One more map for golden time of us, made by Vietnamese with help of White man. In it indicated clearly that Spratly and Paracels Islands is part of our territory.


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## EastSea

Indos said:


> By the way....South East Asian People still has many similarities between each other.....and some of them has more mixed blood with Chinese particularly in Vietnam and Thailand since you have land border with them, not separated by sea like us. For the past 1000 years, I believe many migrate to one another as we are so closed in distance. Indonesian DNA is not really pure by the way.....and the term "Indo" it self suggest it comes from so many different races since Malaca strait is a trading route between Middle East, India, and China since long time ago. And you are actually Indo-China...it means your blood is quite mixed with Chinese. Chinese, Japanese, Germany...I think it has more identical DNA in their people.



I think Vietnamese came from Indonesia, not inverse.

Historians believe that the earliest Mon-Khmer speaking people included Vietnamese (Viet/Kinh we speak Mon/Khmer language) gradually moved from he Indonesian archipelago from the late Pleistocene Age (600,000-12,000 BC) through the Malay Peninsula and Thailand, and north to Burma (Mon people is living now, even in to india (Munda people) and also to Mailand China until they settled back to south on the edges of the Red River in the Tonkin Delta.

So we are South East Asia people, we can share many similarities, its normal.

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## yue10

the Annam race was descended from uncivilised and savages Mon-Khmer root originated somewhere around north central Laos-VN border, it's not joke, if we played as make believe and trusting the member Rye said the Annams was from Southern China but there is still problem because they said the AA was from south WESTERN China migrating down not eastern so how could be such thing as Van Lang


> Austro-asiatic speakers originated from southern Sichuan and they spread to Southeast Asia through major riverways
> 
> "The author of this paper opines that the Mon-Khmer-speaking groups originates from southern,especially southwestern China.



if listen to the Annam when Chinese was occupied VN its mean their race should become as civilised already teaching from their master Shi Xie but look the China emperor said they was uncivilised, why? because the true Annam got occupied was Tai, the true Annams Mon-Khmer root was different came later 


> Like a stern headmaster, Taizong appealed to Le Hoan to see reason and return to the Chinese fold: "Although your seas have pearls, we will throw them into the rivers, and though your mountains produce gold, we will throw it into the dust. We do not covet your valuables. You fly and leap like savages, we have horse-drawn carriages. You drink through your noses, we have rice and wine. Let us change your customs. You cut your hair, we wear hats; when you talk, you sound like birds. We have examinations and books. Let us teach you the knowledge of the proper laws ... Do you not want to escape from the savagery of the outer islands and gaze upon the house of civilization? Do you want to discard your garments of leaves and grass and wear flowered robes embroidered with mountains and dragons? Have you understood?"
> In fact Le Hoan understood Taizong very well and, like his modern successors, knew exactly what he wanted from China - access to its culture and civilization without coming under its political control or jeopardizing Vietnamese freedom in any way.



their history is massive lie and copy pasted, I don't know why mod was deleted my posting, just because the wording is provocative doesn't mean it's incorrect, if read the history just a little and only need to saw the Annams said there was 500 000 troop entered into the Nanyue is enough to know there was copy pasted, how could historian give such detail when he was written it over 1000 year after the event? either he was pulled 500 000 out of his @ss or he was copied that exact number from the dude Sima Guang who was first recorded that number and probably played as make believe too, it was Viets historian wrote that below, you can know it because he use Tan instead of Qin


> Ngo Si Lien, when his turn came, he took the version of Ban Co. *Again word by word he copied the Chinese text.* He added, however, another omission, small in appearance, but loaded with historical meaning. He left out three characters that are translated into ‘gradually he used lawful disguises’. To take the Vietnamese historian’s text, the sentence should be; ‘At that, he eliminated the officials appointed by the Tan…’. Thus, Trieu Da appears to be cruel and no politician at all
> 
> *These tales involved far-away peoples and immemorial times concerning the nation, why not use them to make Dai Viet great and Le Thanh tong glorious? *A great nation bespeaks a great king, and a great nation is great when its area is immense and its past distant. With all that in mind, Ngo Si Lien compiled his Complete History, in which fairies and ghosts were as real as human beings. He was very successful.



this why the Annams race was far far inferior to the average human, they got too much immoral behaviours, lied to world's face and did not blink


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## Snomannen

Wholegrain said:


> Congragulations on showing us how imcompetent and idiotic Vietnamese mapmakers were, since those islands on the map neither represent the location of the Spratly nor Paracel Islands. Also, drawing islands next to your country on a map does ot mean you own them. Hainan island is also marked on that map, and the map doesn't even show any national borders between countries like China, Vietnam Thailand. Etc.


駁斥謊言！越南的黃沙、長沙不是中國的西沙南沙--軍事頻道_中華網
Vietnamese 黃沙 & 長沙 are not Spratly & Paracels.

@*Grand Historian*

Is it okay for you to help me translate some of the main points from the article above?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> Below are the more prevalent view of how O y chromosone haplotype spreads. There are differences but most pointed to the fact that Africa, followed by middle-east, then central asia the the way human being gene move.
> 
> The view that gene flows from "SE Asia" could be partly right, but it probably does not give the full picture.



Only O3a is Proto-Sino-Tibetan, while O is too old to be Proto-Sino-Tibetan, it is Pre-Sino-Tibetan.


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## Rechoice

KirovAirship said:


> 駁斥謊言！越南的黃沙、長沙不是中國的西沙南沙--軍事頻道_中華網
> Vietnamese 黃沙 & 長沙 are not Spratly & Paracels.



Hoang Sa 黃沙 & Truong Sa 長沙 are Spratly, Paracels written with Chinese characters and called by Vietnamese in the past and up to now.

Technically, our ancestors drawn up Islands to be closer to the our coastal just to demonstration that Islands belong to us.


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Only O3a is Proto-Sino-Tibetan, while O is too old to be Proto-Sino-Tibetan, it is Pre-Sino-Tibetan.



Vietnamese, Japanese and Korean shared common O2b mtDNA. Its mean: in the past Vietnamese, Japanese and Korean tribes were living nearby each to others in mainland China, before the time when Japanese went to East China sea, Korean went to North East Asia to Korean peninsula.

Conclusion: legends about the Hung Kings, Van Lang and Xich Quy country 東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南至狐猻精國 in middle mainland òf China ís a truth.


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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> Vietnamese, Japanese and Korean shared common O2b mtDNA. Its mean: in the past Vietnamese, Japanese and Korean tribes were living nearby each to others in mainland China, before the time when Japanese went to East China sea, Korean went to North East Asia to Korean peninsula.
> 
> Conclusion: legends about the Hung Kings, Van Lang and Xich Quy country 東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南至狐猻精國 in middle mainland òf China ís a truth.


How many times I have to say this haplogroups predate the existence of some language families and ethnicities,it is pointless to determine if an haplogroup strictly comes from one ethnicity to another as population bottlenecks can occur.

The haplogroups O 002611,O M134 and O M117 are the most common O3 in Han Chinese,so are Vietnamese/Koreans/Japanese with these haplogroups actually Chinese?

No they weren't the Jomon from recently studies show they are an early Siberian population that moved to Japan while the Yayoi were mainly from Korea while some are from China. 

Later Korean kingdoms such as Baekje had kinship ties with the Yamato state there were plenty of immigrants that came from ancient Korea and China.

As for Koreans there was the indigenous Sam Han and migrant Ye Maek later on some Khitans and Jurchens assimlated into Korean society not to mention that Han dynasty established some commanderies there .

In my opinion the Vietnamese are the most mixed out of the 3,from what I read the original inhabitants of Vietnam were Australoids while incoming groups of Mongoloids(Austroasiatic and Tai Kadai speakers?) either exterminated or assimilated them.

Also the Chinese ruled Vietnam for quite some time and many Chinese refugees also went to Vietnam in times of turmoil such as the Ming loyalists.

With the southward expansion of Vietnam Khmers and Chams were absorbed.

Now you are claiming that Japanese and Koreans were part of Van Lang,Vietnamese nationalists are absolutely hilarious!

Why is O2b* and O2b1 found it negligible or nonexistent amounts in Han Chinese then?

Your own history book Kham dinh Viet su Thong giam cuong muc expresses doubt on the accuracy of Dai Viet su ky Toan Thu and linh nam chich quai.

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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> Hoang Sa 黃沙 & Truong Sa 長沙 are Spratly, Paracels written with Chinese characters and called by Vietnamese in the past and up to now.
> 
> Technically, our ancestors drawn up Islands to be closer to the our coastal just to demonstration that Islands belong to us.



Your "黃沙 & 長沙" is located in the central coast of Vietnam, it has nothing related to Spratly & Paracels, Their descriptions of the environments, latitude, terrain and the description in historic data are totally different.

I have never seen such a funny case that "one drawn up the islands to be closer to the their coastal just to demonstration that Islands belong to them" , by changing all the descriptions of the environments, latitude, terrain and the description in historic data so randomly.


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## Rechoice

KirovAirship said:


> Your "黃沙 & 長沙" is located in the central coast of Vietnam, it has nothing related to Spratly & Paracels, Their descriptions of the environments, latitude, terrain and the description in historic data are totally different.
> 
> I have never seen such a case that "one drawn up the islands to be closer to the their coastal just to demonstration that Islands belong to them" that randomly, by changing all the descriptions of the environments, latitude, terrain and the description in historic data.



You troll and troll.


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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> You troll and troll.


 {our ancestors drawn up Islands to be closer to the our coastal just to demonstration that Islands belong to us}

That guy who came up this joke is the real troll.


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## Lux de Veritas

Group-----------------IQ

Southern Chinese-----105 -
Northern Chinese----- 105 
Vietnamese-------------99.5 
Thai---------------------98.5 
Lao----------------------89 
Filipinos------------------86 

Actually, the above IQ chart is a lot of under estimation of of Southern Chinese IQ, which is way higher than Northern Chinese.

The below show the genetic distance chart. As you can see, Southern Chinese are quite far from Northern Chinese but group with Vietnamese and Thai.

Northern Chinese group with Japanese, Tibetan and Korean.

The History and Geography of Human Genes - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza - Google Books

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## NiceGuy

Lux de Veritas said:


> Group-----------------IQ
> 
> Southern Chinese-----105 -
> Northern Chinese----- 105
> Vietnamese-------------99.5
> Thai---------------------98.5
> Lao----------------------89
> Filipinos------------------86
> 
> Actually, the above IQ chart is a lot of under estimation of of Southern Chinese IQ, which is way higher than Northern Chinese.
> 
> The below show the genetic distance chart. As you can see, Southern Chinese are quite far from Northern Chinese but group with Vietnamese and Thai.
> 
> Northern Chinese group with Japanese, Tibetan and Korean.


Cant trust this survey. Chinese IQ must be lower . VN defeated US while an important part of China- TW still under US's occupation. VNese struggle to expand to the fertile land while Chinese have to live in desert and barren land. VN also have perfect spy Pham Xuan An with perfect cheating skill (that require a super smart brain) while Chinese spies are a bunch of idiot got caught easily .

The is No reason for Chinese to have a higher IQ than VN except IQ test is a stupid test


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## eazzy

You are the proof that Vietnamese have a lower QI.


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## NiceGuy

eazzy said:


> You are the proof that Vietnamese have a lower QI.


And u r the proof that false flagger is the disgarce on internet, only spam trash to every forum


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## Snomannen

NiceGuy said:


> Cant trust this survey. Chinese IQ must be lower . VN defeated US while an important part of China- TW still under US's occupation. VNese struggle to expand to the fertile land while Chinese have to live in desert and barren land. VN also have perfect spy Pham Xuan An with perfect cheating skill (that require a super smart brain) while Chinese spies are a bunch of idiot got caught easily .
> 
> The is No reason for Chinese to have a higher IQ than VN except IQ test is a stupid test



Yeah yeah yeah everyone knows that you have the super high IQ without a doubt, here is your RMB0.5... oh my mistake, here is your VND100.


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## NiceGuy

KirovAirship said:


> Yeah yeah yeah everyone knows that you have the super high IQ without a doubt, here is your RMB0.5... oh my mistake, here is your VND100.


U r the proof of low IQ Chinese too, many Chinese frozen to death in this winter, and u throw money to a VNese living in fertile land under cozy sunshine

Shame on u ,dude


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## Snomannen

NiceGuy said:


> U r the proof of low IQ Chinese too, many Chinese frozen to death in this winter, and u throw money to a VNese living in fertile land under cozy sunshine
> 
> Shame on u ,dude



Yeah yeah fertile land sure indeed cozy sunshine oh and shame on me blah blah blah.






Keep the change, you are welcome.

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## Lux de Veritas

Vietnam 2012 PISA. She is a disgrace to East Asian pride to South East Asian. Vietnamese want to be SE Asian and I think her IQ put her into the league of SE Asian.

Oops, am I Singaporean Chinese, East Asian or SE Asian? Anyway, I identify with East Asian, and our IQ are identical with East Asian.

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Yeah yeah fertile land sure indeed cozy sunshine oh and shame on me blah blah blah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep the change, you are welcome.


marry Christmas to all of you from snow free London! I see you got a great discussion lol



Lux de Veritas said:


> Group-----------------IQ
> 
> Southern Chinese-----105 -
> Northern Chinese----- 105
> Vietnamese-------------99.5
> Thai---------------------98.5
> Lao----------------------89
> Filipinos------------------86
> 
> Actually, the above IQ chart is a lot of under estimation of of Southern Chinese IQ, which is way higher than Northern Chinese.
> 
> The below show the genetic distance chart. As you can see, Southern Chinese are quite far from Northern Chinese but group with Vietnamese and Thai.
> 
> Northern Chinese group with Japanese, Tibetan and Korean.
> 
> The History and Geography of Human Genes - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza - Google Books
> 
> View attachment 12395


by all standards the Viet people belong to East Asia (cultures, custom and iq). Here is my personal rank iq list: Japan>China (Singapore and Taiwan)>Korea>Vietnam>South East Asia>South Asia



NiceGuy said:


> U r the proof of low IQ Chinese too, many Chinese frozen to death in this winter, and u throw money to a VNese living i0n fertile land under cozy sunshine
> 
> Shame on u ,dude


not quite sure if true, but London is full of Chinese tourists... lol
I visit Chinatown and must tell you the foods are okay, but very expensive. a rice bowl costs 6 pounds. Terrible.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> Group-----------------IQ
> 
> Southern Chinese-----105 -
> Northern Chinese----- 105
> Vietnamese-------------99.5
> Thai---------------------98.5
> Lao----------------------89
> Filipinos------------------86
> 
> Actually, the above IQ chart is a lot of under estimation of of Southern Chinese IQ, which is way higher than Northern Chinese.
> 
> The below show the genetic distance chart. As you can see, Southern Chinese are quite far from Northern Chinese but group with Vietnamese and Thai.
> 
> Northern Chinese group with Japanese, Tibetan and Korean.
> 
> The History and Geography of Human Genes - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza - Google Books
> 
> View attachment 12395



You are talking about the mtDNA, then yes.

But China is now dominated by the Northern Chinese group, Shanghai is also grouped with Northern Chinese, not with Southern Chinese.


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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> Group-----------------IQ
> 
> Southern Chinese-----105 -
> Northern Chinese----- 105
> Vietnamese-------------99.5
> Thai---------------------98.5
> Lao----------------------89
> Filipinos------------------86
> 
> Actually, the above IQ chart is a lot of under estimation of of Southern Chinese IQ, which is way higher than Northern Chinese.
> 
> The below show the genetic distance chart. As you can see, Southern Chinese are quite far from Northern Chinese but group with Vietnamese and Thai.
> 
> Northern Chinese group with Japanese, Tibetan and Korean.
> 
> The History and Geography of Human Genes - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza - Google Books
> 
> View attachment 12395



Thks for post, I'm right when I stated that Southern Hans are not Hans.

I think southern Chinese members don't agree that genetically Northern Han and Southern Han are far and not in one ethnic group following holograph.


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## Lux de Veritas

EastSea said:


> I think southern Chinese members don't agree that genetically Northern Han and Southern Han are far and not in one ethnic group following holograph.



I am not sure about others, but I am convince by evidence that Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese are far genetically. Southern Chinese cluster with Malay, Vietnamese and Thai.

The Northern Chinese cluster with Tibetan, Japs and Korean. There is a Shanghai guy who keep on ranting that Shanghai is Northern Chinese, but I believe they are mixed.

Northern Chinese are not so smart not just today, but as early as Song Dynasty. The lect of Southern Chinese is very different. Nevertheless, the centrifugal force of Han Chinese is extremely strong.

In Han Chinese we have this concept of 天下, which implies that we can only be rule by one emperor. During the ROC time of 1911-1949, no one declare independent even after much incitation by Japan. 

All warlords in China despite de facto independent and resented the central government will immediately hammer the clown who wanted to declare independent.

Even Chiang Kai Shek who went Taiwan do not declare independent. This is one of the reason why China can become strong.

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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> Vietnam 2012 PISA. She is a disgrace to East Asian pride to South East Asian. Vietnamese want to be SE Asian and I think her IQ put her into the league of SE Asian.
> 
> Oops, am I Singaporean Chinese, East Asian or SE Asian? Anyway, I identify with East Asian, and our IQ are identical with East Asian.
> 
> View attachment 12414



In case of the servey did in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh city, our scores could be higher.


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## Lux de Veritas

I think the survey should be done at major city in Vietnam, and I am a little cynical, but not serious about my claims that Vietnamese has low IQ. Just kidding.

The fact of high IQ China is because of massive urbanization and an improve in education and food, just like everywhere in East Asia. When Vietnam reach that level, the IQ will go up.

Another important factor is East Asians nowaday invested so much in their child that they got very low fertility rate. With that sort of investment, you get high cognitive ability.

While proud of our high IQ, there is a serious problem here in East Asians. Our society exploited us so much that we got sterilize. We invested too much in one child that we cannot afford more children.

We should have more socialism and less meritocracy, so that a family will have more kids instead of investing too much very little kids.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> I am not sure about others, but I am convince by evidence that Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese are far genetically. Southern Chinese cluster with Malay, Vietnamese and Thai.
> 
> *The Northern Chinese cluster with Tibetan, Japs and Korean. There is a Shanghai guy who keep on ranting that Shanghai is Northern Chinese, but I believe they are mixed.*
> 
> Northern Chinese are not so smart not just today, but as early as Song Dynasty. The lect of Southern Chinese is very different. Nevertheless, the centrifugal force of Han Chinese is extremely strong.
> 
> In Han Chinese we have this concept of 天下, which implies that we can only be rule by one emperor. During the ROC time of 1911-1949, no one declare independent even after much incitation by Japan.
> 
> All warlords in China despite de facto independent and resented the central government will immediately hammer the clown who wanted to declare independent.
> 
> Even Chiang Kai Shek who went Taiwan do not declare independent. This is one of the reason why China can become strong.



Shanghainese are genetically clustered with Northern Chinese, only Cantonese/Fujianese/Hainanese are genetically mixed.

*第一組（江蘇為代表）Y染色體的相同率很高（平均0.905，約九成相等），線粒體DNA的相同率也很高（平均0.785，接近0.80，約八成相等），與北方漢族差異無幾。從基因角度看，江蘇人、上海人、安徽人、浙江人算是北方人。

第二組（福建為代表）Y染色體的相同率較高（平均0.80），說明基本是北方漢族男性的後代。線粒體DNA的相同率很低（平均0.224），說明基本是南方少數民族女性的後代。綜合兩點，福建、雲南，廣東等省區的居民基本是北方漢族男性與南方少數民族女性婚配的後代。同時表明，遷徙到福建等地的北方漢族中很少有女性移民，以及當地少數民族男性很少傳下後代。

第三組（湖南為代表）情況比較正常，這組Y染色體的相同率高於0.5不是太多（平均0.74），說明少數民族男性較多地傳下了後代。線粒體DNA的數值達到0.5（平均0.488）。說明該地區（主要是湖南、湖北、江西、四川等省）居民的母系中，北方漢族女性的數量與南方少數民族女性的數量基本相等。說明北方漢族與當地少數民族均衡婚配，均勻融合。

南方漢族 - 維基百科，自由的百科全書*

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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> I am not sure about others, but I am convince by evidence that Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese are far genetically. Southern Chinese cluster with Malay, Vietnamese and Thai.
> 
> The Northern Chinese cluster with Tibetan, Japs and Korean. There is a Shanghai guy who keep on ranting that Shanghai is Northern Chinese, but I believe they are mixed.
> 
> Northern Chinese are not so smart not just today, but as early as Song Dynasty. The lect of Southern Chinese is very different. Nevertheless, the centrifugal force of Han Chinese is extremely strong.
> 
> In Han Chinese we have this concept of 天下, which implies that we can only be rule by one emperor. During the ROC time of 1911-1949, no one declare independent even after much incitation by Japan.
> 
> All warlords in China despite de facto independent and resented the central government will immediately hammer the clown who wanted to declare independent.
> 
> Even Chiang Kai Shek who went Taiwan do not declare independent. This is one of the reason why China can become strong.


One more thanks for fair, objective comment.

In case of Shanghai_ren (Wu Yue) are native people, no mixed with Northern Han, they could be Middle Chinese. As I know they do business as well as Southern Chinese do.

For the mtDNA, following early post of my countryman Rechoice, its very tranger when Vietnamese shared huge O2b with Korean and Japanse, what Northern and Southern Chinese don't have.

Northern Chinese are smart or not you are Chinese could know it as well. The concept of 天下, Thiên hạ is translated in to Vietnamese, its confucious idea could apply to Vietnam too. Vietnam was in turmoil like 12 warlords or Trinh, Mac, Nguyen warlords or South and North Vietnam recently. At the end we reunified our country, it should be not depend on Communists or Nationalists.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> One more thanks for fair, objective comment.
> 
> *In case of Shanghai_ren (Wu Yue) are native people, no mixed with Northern Han, they could be Middle Chinese. As I know they do business as well as Southern Chinese do.*
> 
> For the mtDNA, following early post of my countryman Rechoice, its very tranger when Vietnamese shared huge O2b with Korean and Japanse, what Northern and Southern Chinese don't have.
> 
> Northern Chinese are smart or not you are Chinese could know it as well. The concept of 天下, Thiên hạ is translated in to Vietnamese, its confucious idea could apply to Vietnam too. Vietnam was in turmoil like 12 warlords or Trinh, Mac, Nguyen warlords. At the end we reunified our country, it should be not depend on Communists or Nationalists.



Only South Chinese such as Cantonese are 100% business oriented and have nothing to do with politics.

We Middle Chinese are dominating in both politics and science in modern China, Xi Jinping is Northern Chinese, but his two predecessors Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao are both Middle Chinese near the area of Shanghai. Our Premier Li Keqiang is also Middle Chinese.

Sure, Middle Chinese are not same as Northern Chinese, but we aren't same as Southern Chinese as well.

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## Lux de Veritas

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Only South Chinese such as Cantonese are 100% business oriented and have nothing to do with politics.
> 
> We Middle Chinese are dominating in both politics and science in modern China, Xi Jinping is Northern Chinese, but his two predecessors Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao are both Middle Chinese near the area of Shanghai. Our Premier Li Keqiang is also Middle Chinese.
> 
> Sure, Middle Chinese are not same as Northern Chinese, but we aren't same as Southern Chinese as well.



Middle Chinese are the smartest Chinese, I have to admit. The Southern Chinese tribe of mine, Min used to be quite smart until we got quite a devastation by Manchus. The top imperial scholar in Ming Dynasty came from mostly Fujian, Zhejiang, Jiangxi and Jiangsu.

明朝状元列表 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

泉州 Quanzhou, my ancestral town, used to be the biggest port in China.

In China, there is a saying that the capital cannot be put in Middle China, and must go preferably in Beijing. Anyone who build capital in middle China see the empire destroy. Even though Northern China is poorer, the capital city must go to North. Its kind of strange that despite middle China is the economic power house, the capital city is in the north.

江南脂粉之地，六朝废都

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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> Middle Chinese are the smartest Chinese, I have to admit. The Southern Chinese tribe of mine, Min used to be quite smart until we got quite a devastation by Manchus. The top imperial scholar in Ming Dynasty came from mostly Fujian, Zhejiang, Jiangxi and Jiangsu.
> 
> 明朝状元列表 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书
> 
> 泉州 Quanzhou, my ancestral town, used to be the biggest port in China.
> 
> In China, there is a saying that the capital cannot be put in Middle China, and must go preferably in Beijing. Anyone who build capital in middle China see the empire destroy. Even though Northern China is poorer, the capital city must go to North. Its kind of strange that despite middle China is the economic power house, the capital city is in the north.
> 
> 江南脂粉之地，六朝废都



Dr. Sun also prefered Nanjing as the capital of China just as many Cantonese regime founders, but to put the capital in Northern China, it is not about superstition, but to balance the importance between Northern China and Southern China.

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## EastSea

Thks for you when you accepted my idea "Middle Chinese" for Wu Yue people. Its just for identification, is not for ethnic or race discrimination.

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## Lux de Veritas

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Dr. Sun also prefered Nanjing as the capital of China just as many Cantonese regime founders, but to put the capital in Northern China, it is not about superstition, but to balance the importance of Northern China and Southern China.



国民党建都南京20年完蛋。南京真的是皇朝大克星。The KMT got defeated after 20 years in Nanjing. In recent China history, putting capital in Beijing seems to result to a stronger country.

Anyway, its right that Beijing is a better choice to balance northern and southern China. Also when I visited my company office in Beijing and Shanghai, the atmosphere in Beijing seems to be more relax and less politicking. Or more directly "lazy". They are also very direct and can be violent.

上海人狡猾可恶。


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Thks for you when you accepted my idea "Middle Chinese" for Wu Yue people. Its just for identification, is not for ethnic or race discrimination.



Here is my rough estimation about the percentage bloodline for Southern Chinese groups.

*Shanghainese: 70% Han & 30% Baiyue in Male Lineage, 50% Han & 30% Bai Yue & 20% Hmong-Mien in Female Lineage

Cantonese: 70% Han & 30% Baiyue in Male Lineage, 20% Han & 60% Bai Yue & 20% Hmong-Mien in Female Lineage

Hunanese: 50% Han & 50% Hmong-Mien in Male Lineage, 50% Han & 30% Hmong-Mien & 20% Bai Yue in Female Lineage*

Northern Han Chinese love the areas around Shanghai, thus they brought their entire family along with them. Some Bai Yue men were marrying the women from Northern China.

While those Northern Han Chinese males in Guangdong are lone expatriates who married with the local Bai Yue women.


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## EastSea

Lux de Veritas said:


> Middle Chinese are the smartest Chinese, I have to admit. The Southern Chinese tribe of mine, Min used to be quite smart until we got quite a devastation by Manchus. The top imperial scholar in Ming Dynasty came from mostly Fujian, Zhejiang, Jiangxi and Jiangsu.
> 
> 明朝状元列表 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书
> 
> 泉州 Quanzhou, my ancestral town, used to be the biggest port in China.
> 
> In China, there is a saying that the capital cannot be put in Middle China, and must go preferably in Beijing. Anyone who build capital in middle China see the empire destroy. Even though Northern China is poorer, the capital city must go to North. Its kind of strange that despite middle China is the economic power house, the capital city is in the north.
> 
> 江南脂粉之地，六朝废都



泉州 Quanzhou is first city in China applied open policy in Man Qing Dynasty, if I'm right.

I read in the book, it stated the proverb in China, is that : Who rule Zhong Yuan of China, he is ruled China. Zhong Yuan is in North China.

So that all the rebels or revolution initiated from South, but Capital will be in the North after victory. like Long March of Mao Zedong, right ?


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## Lux de Veritas

EastSea said:


> 泉州 Quanzhou is first city in China applied open policy in Man Qing Dynasty, if I'm right.
> 
> I read in the book, it stated the prove in China, is that : Who rule Zhong Yuan of China, he is ruled China. Zhong Yuan is in North China.
> 
> So that all the rebels or revolution initiated from South, but Capital will be in the North after victory. like Long March of Mao Zedong, right ?



Quanzhou is open port long long time ago, and during Tang dynasty, it gain prominence. The Ming dynasty is reactionary and only allow certain open port, and Quanzhou is one of them.

All military fights must be settle in central plains, and the South usually surrender without much fighting. The South cities like Nanjing and Hangzhou used to be capitals but these dynasty are short or quickly taken over by Northern Chinese.

Also in China, there is a pattern that any dynasty who lost korea, soon got destroy. The Qing lost Korea in 1895, soon Qing also gone. Mao win the Korean war. The communist should stay for quite long.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> 国民党建都南京20年完蛋。南京真的是皇朝大克星。The KMT got defeated after 20 years in Nanjing. In recent China history, putting capital in Beijing seems to result to a stronger country.
> 
> Anyway, its right that Beijing is a better choice to balance northern and southern China. Also when I visited my company office in Beijing and Shanghai, the atmosphere in Beijing seems to be more relax and less politicking. Or more directly "lazy". They are also very direct and can be violent.
> 
> 上海人狡猾可恶。



Hong Xiuquan and Sun Yatsen were both Cantonese. For them, Beijing was too far away. Even the modern KMT from Taiwan still believe that Nanjing is more suitable as the Capital of China.

Of course, many Shanghainese are arrogant and snobbish, i am not going to deny it.


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## EastSea

So that, if Korea reunify it mean PRC is going to collapse.


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## Lux de Veritas

EastSea said:


> So that, if Korea reunified it mean PRC is going to collapse.



Unified Korea not under China influence is not a good sign for China. Always when Korea get out of China, she collapse in 20 years. Last time being Qing dynasty, 1895.

Manchus took Korea first and in around 10 years, she took China. The Mongol Yuan lost Korea to Red hat army of Liu Futong, soon she collapse. The Song never control Korea, she was weak. The Sui attack Korea without success, soon she collapse.

I have never seen a China that do not collapse after she lost Korea. A strong China must control Korea.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> So that, if Korea reunify it mean PRC is going to collapse.



Do you think that Kim Jong-Un doesn't want to rule over South Korea? Uncle Sam doesn't belong to Asia, once they retreat back to North America, their puppet regime South Korea will no longer exist.



Lux de Veritas said:


> Unified Korea not under China influence is not a good sign for China. Always when Korea get out of China, she collapse in 20 years. Last time being Qing dynasty, 1895.
> 
> Manchus took Korea first and in around 10 years, she took China. The Mongol Yuan lost Korea to Red hat army of Liu Futong, soon she collapse. The Song never control Korea, she was weak. *The Sui attack Korea without success, soon she collapse.*
> 
> I have never seen a China that do not collapse after she lost Korea. A strong China must control Korea.



Sui attacked Gaogouli, it was not Korea, they were more related with Jurchen, who was the ancestor of Manchus.


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## Lux de Veritas

Kokuryo control half of Korea peninsula then although they are not Korean. I see a strange pattern and I have the superstitious that losing Korea is bad for China, and may result to its downfall.


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## Fattyacids

EastSea said:


> Thks for post, I'm right when I stated that Southern Hans are not Hans.
> 
> I think southern Chinese members don't agree that genetically Northern Han and Southern Han are far and not in one ethnic group following holograph.



That's a load of crap that Taiwanese pan-green coalition love to spew, I'm not surprised Vietnamese pick that up too. Northern Han is as far from Southern Han as North Koreans are from South koreans.

Lux de Veritas, are you taiwanese singaporean/vietnamese singaporean? Or were you educated in Taiwan?


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## Lux de Veritas

I am Fujian Quanzhou ancestry 3rd generation Singaporean, Taiwanese/Min Nan speaker. You wont understand my lect. What is your lect Fattyacids


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## Fattyacids

Lux de Veritas said:


> I am not sure about others, but I am convince by evidence that Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese are far genetically. Southern Chinese cluster with Malay, Vietnamese and Thai.
> 
> The Northern Chinese cluster with Tibetan, Japs and Korean. There is a Shanghai guy who keep on ranting that Shanghai is Northern Chinese, but I believe they are mixed.
> 
> Northern Chinese are not so smart not just today, but as early as Song Dynasty. The lect of Southern Chinese is very different. Nevertheless, the centrifugal force of Han Chinese is extremely strong.
> 
> In Han Chinese we have this concept of 天下, which implies that we can only be rule by one emperor. During the ROC time of 1911-1949, no one declare independent even after much incitation by Japan.
> 
> All warlords in China despite de facto independent and resented the central government will immediately hammer the clown who wanted to declare independent.
> 
> Even Chiang Kai Shek who went Taiwan do not declare independent. This is one of the reason why China can become strong.




You gotta kidding? Southern CHinese clustered with Thai, Malay and vietnamese???
Are you taiwanese singaporean/vietnamese singaporean? Or were you educated in Taiwan?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> Kokuryo control half of Korea peninsula then although they are not Korean. I see a strange pattern and I have the superstitious that losing Korea is bad for China, and may result to its downfall.



Many North Koreans actually descended from Gaogouli, that's why they look closer to the Chinese minority groups from Dongbei than South Koreans.



Fattyacids said:


> You gotta kidding? Southern CHinese clustered with Thai, Malay and vietnamese???
> Are you taiwanese singaporean/vietnamese singaporean? Or were you educated in Taiwan?



Actually many Northern Chinese groups also got some prehistoric influence from Southeast Asia, that's why i still believe that Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese are still more closely related to each other.

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## Fattyacids

Lux de Veritas said:


> I am Fujian Quanzhou ancestry 3rd generation Singaporean, Taiwanese/Min Nan speaker. You wont understand my lect. What is your lect Fattyacids



You talked exactly like a pan-green taiwanese!!! There is no way southern Chinese clustered with thai and malay genetically.  Are you educated in taiwan?

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## Lux de Veritas

Fattyacids said:


> You gotta kidding? Southern CHinese clustered with Thai, Malay and vietnamese???
> Are you taiwanese singaporean/vietnamese singaporean? Or were you educated in Taiwan?



That is from Cavalli-Sforza, Stanford genetist and world best. You need to be aware who close we are to Malay. The Malaysian Malay are bastard and look different, and proto-Malay look quite Chinese. Example below.

Malay from Fujian theory.





*Dong Li Huo Che are Malay singers from Taiwan. They are yellow. They have interesting phenotype. They can be mistaken for Amerindian. They show strong signs of undomesticated-ness.*


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## Lux de Veritas

Look like my sisters.

*Chinese Thai 中国傣族*






laotian girl





The Thai and Myanmese admit they migrated from Southern China.

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## Fattyacids

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> M
> Actually many Northern Chinese groups also got some prehistoric influence from Southeast Asia, that's why i still believe that Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese are still more closely related to each other.



North Chinese has nothing to with Southeast Asia. LOL, is there even a doubt that North and Southern chinese are not the same? Where did southern chinese ancestor came from? Just look at Halo group 03. Only people who would argue otherwise are the pan-green Taiwanese, it's a popularly politicized ideology over there.


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## Fattyacids

Lux de Veritas said:


> That is from Cavalli-Sforza, Stanford genetist and world best. You need to be aware who close we are to Malay. The Malaysian Malay are bastard and look different, and proto-Malay look quite Chinese. Example below.
> 
> Malay from Fujian theory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dong Li Huo Che are Malay singers from Taiwan. They are yellow. They have interesting phenotype. They can be mistaken for Amerindian. They show strong signs of undomesticated-ness.*



By malays, I think you're referring to Austronesian. Yes, they are the aborgines of Taiwan, and there are minority of them in part of southern china too. But that is far from saying that southern chinese cluster closer to them. LOL.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Fattyacids said:


> North Chinese has nothing to with Southeast Asia. LOL, is there even a doubt that North and Southern chinese are not the same? Where did southern chinese ancestor came from? Just look at Halo group 03. Only people who would argue otherwise are the pan-green Taiwanese, it's a popularly politicized ideology over there.



North Chinese only got the prehistoric Southeast Asian influence (most likely Pre-Sino-Tibetan), they have no recent Southeast Asian influence at all.

South Chinese are also predominantly Sino-Tibetan, who got some minor Southeast Asian influence.

Yeah, many research also showed that South China as a stronghold of O3a.

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## Fattyacids

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> North Chinese only got the prehistoric Southeast Asian influence (most likely Pre-Sino-Tibetan), they have no recent Southeast Asian influence at all.
> 
> South Chinese are also predominantly Sino-Tibetan, who got some minor Southeast Asian influence.
> 
> Yeah, many research also showed that South China as a stronghold of O3a.



Exactly!! The only people who would argue otherwise are the pan-green taiwanese (not all taiwanese) and of course the Vietnamese who until this day argue Vietnam is Bai yue (but they didn't know Bai yue in Chinese refers to hundred of tribes, LOL)

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## Lux de Veritas

The Southern Chinese is mix blood and sinicize minorities. The Thai were from China and they look like one of us. They move South and mix with locals. They transit the locals Australoid to a more mongoloid phenotype.

The Southern Chinese are cluster far apart from the Northern Chinese for very good reason. There are some Turkic, Mongol and Manchu blood in Northern Chinese.

And canonical Chinese history text Zizhi Tongjian (资治通鉴) shows that Emperor Taizong of Tang, Li Shimn 唐太宗李世民 speak Turkic. To simplify, the text below states, Emperor "*Li Shimin asked his soldiers to stay behind and he went himself alone to speak to East Tu-Jue Illig Khan*" "上麾诸军使却而布陈，独留与颉利语" .

上自出玄武门，与高士廉、房玄龄等六骑径诣渭水上，与颉利隔水而语，责以负约。突厥大惊，皆下马罗拜。俄而诸军继至，旌甲蔽野，颉利见执失思力不返，而上挺身轻出，军容甚盛，有惧色。上麾诸军使却而布陈，独留与颉利语。萧瑀以上轻敌，叩马固谏，上曰：“吾筹之已熟，非卿所知。突厥所以敢倾国而来，直抵郊甸者，以我国内有难，朕新即位。谓我不能抗御故也。我若示之以弱，闭门拒守，虏必放兵大掠，不可复制。故朕轻骑独出，示若轻之；又震曜军容，使之必战；出虏不意，使之失图。虏入我地既深，必有惧心，故与战则克，与和则固矣。制服突厥，在此一举，卿第观之！”是日，颉利来请和，诏许之。上即日还宫。乙酉，又幸城西，斩白马，与颉利盟于便桥之上。突厥引兵退。

His first crown prince Li Cheng Gan 李承乾 not only like to speak Turkic, but also like to dress as a Turk, stay in Turkic tent, and relish Turkic culinary.

又使户奴数十百人习音声，学胡人椎髻，剪彩为舞衣，寻橦跳剑，鼓鞞声通昼夜不绝。造大铜炉、六熟鼎，招亡奴盗取人牛马，亲视烹燖，召所幸厮养共食之。又好突厥言及所服，选貌类胡者，被以羊裘，辫发，五人建一落，张毡舍，造五狼头纛，分戟为阵, ，系幡旗，设穹庐自居，使诸部敛羊以烹，抽佩刀割肉相啗。


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## Fattyacids

I don't have a whole load of information on hand, this is chart borrowed from @Wholegrain

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## BoQ77

Vietnam has been keeping the 2-child for several years. 
Below is the recommendation to couples not lower 2 child into 1 child 



> City tells couples to have 2 children amid declining birthrate
> 
> Updated : 07/29/2013 14:19 GMT + 7
> 
> *In face of an alarming decline in birth rate in Ho Chi Minh City, the General Department of Population and Family Planning has recommended that every couple should have two children. *
> 
> The recommendation was made on July 17 after the agency reviewed a reality that the birth rates in many provinces and cities in Vietnam have declined to an alarming level, in which most women have only one child, said Duong Quoc Trong, head of the Population and Family Planning General Department.
> 
> The family planning policy applied in the past 50 years has led to a sharp decline in the country’s birth rate. In 1961, a Vietnamese woman had 6.3 children on average. The figure dropped to 2.06 in 2006 and to 1.99 in 2011. Last year, the figure slightly increased to 2.05 but it is still lower the replacement rate, 2.1, Trong said.
> 
> The replacement rate is the degree to which a population is replacing itself, based on the ratio of the number of female babies to the number of women of childbearing, he explained.
> 
> Birth rates are different in different localities, of which HCMC has the lowest rate: 1.33 children per woman in the reproductive age. In other southern localities, such as Long An, Tien Giang, Hau Giang, Ca Mau, and Can Tho, the birth rates range between 1.5 and 1.6. Meanwhile, many northern and central provinces have much higher rates, 3-3.4.
> 
> “When the fertility rate declines to 1.3, then it is very hard to increase it to the replacement rate and as a result, the population will age rapidly and the society will lack people in working age. For that reason, I encourage couples in HCMC to have two children,” Trong said.
> 
> He emphasized, “We do not suggest that every couple has three children, but they should not stop after having their first child.”
> 
> For HCMC, the new slogan “each couple should have two children” should be used to replace the long-standing policy that “every family should have only one or two children,” as stipulated in the 2003 Ordinance on Population, he said.
> 
> After 10 years of implementing the Ordinance, To Thi Kim Hoa, head of the HCMC Sub-department of Population and Family Planning, said the birth rate in the city has continuously been on the decrease year after year.
> 
> Therefore, the city authorities should encourage each couple to have two children and advise women in the childbearing age to have babies as soon as they can after getting married, Hoa said.
> 
> On a nationwide scale, whether or not the population policy should be loosened to encourage people to have two children required comprehensive surveys and studies, Hoa said, adding that this issue should be discussed in the near future when the country reviews the 10-year implementation of the Ordinance.
> 
> *Aging, sex imbalance*
> 
> As a result of the policy that restrains birth rates over the past decades, Vietnam is entering the stage of aging population, which means the proportion of people in the working age is declining while that of old people is increasing, said Prof. Dr Nguyen Dinh Cu, former head of the Institute for Population and Social Issues.
> 
> According to the Statistics General Department, the proportion of people over 65 years old increased from 4.7 percent in 1979 to 7.1 percent in 2012 and will surge to 10.1 percent in 2029 and to 18 percent in 2049.
> 
> Currently Vietnam has about 9 million elderly people and it is expected that elderly people will account for 20 percent of the country’s population in 2035-2038. Therefore, proper policies should be devised to ensure the quality of life of the elderly and enable them to make contributions to society, Prof. Cu said.
> 
> Lowered birth rate also worsens the sex imbalance at birth, the scientist said. “When the birth rate is lower and when the traditional concept of favoring men over women is still prevailing, women are more likely to give birth to boys than to girls, causing the existing sex imbalance to become more serious.”
> 
> The sex ratio at birth (male to female) in Vietnam in 2009 is 110.6/100. Two years later the ratio increased to 112.2. Such a situation will make 2-4 million men in the marriage age unable to find wives by 2050.
> 
> Therefore, the country’s population policy should be adjusted to slow down the ageing of the population and ease the sex imbalance at birth, Cu said.
> 
> China has turned from the traditional “one-child” policy to the new “one-and-a-half child” policy, Trong said.
> The change was made after demographers forecast that nearly one out of every four people in the country will be older than 65 by the year 2050, he said.


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## BoQ77

Fattyacids said:


> Exactly!! The only people who would argue otherwise are the pan-green taiwanese (not all taiwanese) and of course the Vietnamese who until this day argue Vietnam is Bai yue (but they didn't know Bai yue in Chinese refers to hundred of tribes, LOL)



in Vietnamese, we call Baiyue as Bach Viet means 100 tribes of Viet


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## EastSea

Fattyacids said:


> Exactly!! The only people who would argue otherwise are the pan-green taiwanese (not all taiwanese) and of course the Vietnamese who until this day argue Vietnam is Bai yue (but they didn't know Bai yue in Chinese refers to hundred of tribes, LOL)





BoQ77 said:


> in Vietnamese, we call Baiyue as Bach Viet means 100 tribes of Viet



Bai Yue were people were living in Southern China, like Zhuang people, H'mong - Mien People, Bai Pu, Blang people, etc.

Interesting is that:

1/ The Blang (布朗族 : Bùlǎng Zú) (also spelled Bulong) people are an ethnic group. They form one of the 56 ethnic groups officially recognized by the PRC. The Blang language belongs to the Palaung-Wa branch of the Mon–Khmer family of languages, like Vietnamese/Kinh/Muong People in Vietnam.

Blang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2/ Bai Pu (百濮)) people speak *Mon-Khmer language* like Vietnamese/Kinh/Muong People in Vietnam.

http://www.sealang.net/archives/mks/pdf/35:183-187.pdf

3/ *Genetic Links of Mon-Khmer and Hmong-Mien Peoples* Confirmed.

There are 147 Mon-Khmer languages are spoken by more than 90 million people, mostly in Southeast Asia, of which the dominant languages of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are the best known (there are isolated pockets elsewhere). 

Dispatches From Turtle Island: Genetic Links of Mon-Khmer and Hmong-Mien Peoples Confirmed

We don't have nothing to do with Baiyue who speak Tai/Katay language, but we have relation with such Yue tribes who shared bloodline and language with us.




Fattyacids said:


> I don't have a whole load of information on hand, this is chart borrowed from @Wholegrain



4/ Vietnamese/Kinh people shared genetic cluster O2b with Japanese and Korean, so that in ancient time our ancestor tribes have been living in China nearby Altaic tribes, should been mixed with them before a time our ancestors (Van Lang people) settled from China back to North Vietnam. There was Van Lang State of us.

But part of our brothers/sistere like H'mong-Mien, Baipu, Blang ... are still living in China.

Thks for @Rye and @Rechoice for your posts


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## Grand Historian

There never was a Van Lang state and unless you have archaeological and textual proof that it existed it will be regarded as myth.

How many times do I have to post this the Baiyue didn't call themselves Yue/Viet it is unknown what they called themselves,neither were the Baiyue Vietnamese in any sense.

Repeating the same lies over and over again doesn't make it true.



KirovAirship said:


> 駁斥謊言！越南的黃沙、長沙不是中國的西沙南沙--軍事頻道_中華網
> Vietnamese 黃沙 & 長沙 are not Spratly & Paracels.
> 
> @*Grand Historian*
> 
> Is it okay for you to help me translate some of the main points from the article above?


Sure thing,just give me a few days my Chinese is still rusty.

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## Viet

eazzy said:


> I wonder why we don't learn about French Indochina in school, I don't know much about it...


perhaps @elis can answer the question. here is a video film about indochina.








Grand Historian said:


> There never was a *Van Lang* state and unless you have archaeological and textual proof that it existed it will be regarded as myth.
> 
> How many times do I have to post this the Baiyue didn't call themselves Yue/Viet it is unknown what they called themselves,neither were the Baiyue Vietnamese in any sense.
> 
> Repeating the same lies over and over again doesn't make it true.
> 
> 
> Sure thing,just give me a few days my Chinese is still rusty.


As I said elsewhere Van Lang and Hung Vuong are more a myth than reality...


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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> It tastes much better than a Chinese dish, I saw on a German television recently:
> 
> chicken eggs cooked in children´s urine for 24 hours (!). After watching this report about China´s unique delicious cuisine, I had to puke.



Damn , is that true ?

Can you tell me where is the report ?

I think Pho should be nice , because Vie rice has very nice quality 

And Viets eat french bread in the morning , is that right ?

BTW, do not make the mistake we china made during the modernization 

Keep the river clean ,Keep the mountain green!

Good luck!


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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> Damn , is that true ?
> Can you tell me where is the report ?


It was shown on Pro7, a private german television.


Kyle Sun said:


> I think *Pho* should be nice , because Vie rice has very nice quality


Pho can be eaten thoughout the day. Viet rice becomes increasing popular, overtaking Thai rice recently in terms of shipment to overseas.






Kyle Sun said:


> And Viets eat *french bread* in the morning , is that right ?


yes, it is a french heritage.






Kyle Sun said:


> BTW, do not make the mistake we china made during the modernization
> Keep the river clean ,Keep the mountain green!
> 
> Good luck!


Thks. I read the VN government is working on a plan to turn the largest island of VN, Phu Quoc, into a second Singapore. That would be great.
VGP News | Singapore invited to invest in Phu Quoc Island - Singapore invited to invest in Phu Quoc Island


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> How many times I have to say this haplogroups predate the existence of some language families and ethnicities,it is pointless to determine if an haplogroup strictly comes from one ethnicity to another as population bottlenecks can occur.
> 
> The haplogroups O 002611,O M134 and O M117 are the most common O3 in Han Chinese,so are Vietnamese/Koreans/Japanese with these haplogroups actually Chinese?
> 
> No they weren't the Jomon from recently studies show they are an early Siberian population that moved to Japan while the Yayoi were mainly from Korea while some are from China.
> 
> Later Korean kingdoms such as Baekje had kinship ties with the Yamato state there were plenty of immigrants that came from ancient Korea and China.
> 
> As for Koreans there was the indigenous Sam Han and migrant Ye Maek later on some Khitans and Jurchens assimlated into Korean society not to mention that Han dynasty established some commanderies there .
> 
> *In my opinion the Vietnamese are the most mixed out of the 3,from what I read the original inhabitants of Vietnam were Australoids while incoming groups of Mongoloids(Austroasiatic and Tai Kadai speakers?) either exterminated or assimilated them.*
> 
> Also the Chinese ruled Vietnam for quite some time and many Chinese refugees also went to Vietnam in times of turmoil such as the Ming loyalists.
> 
> With the southward expansion of Vietnam Khmers and Chams were absorbed.
> 
> Now you are claiming that Japanese and Koreans were part of Van Lang,Vietnamese nationalists are absolutely hilarious!
> 
> Why is O2b* and O2b1 found it negligible or nonexistent amounts in Han Chinese then?
> 
> Your own history book Kham dinh Viet su Thong giam cuong muc expresses doubt on the accuracy of Dai Viet su ky Toan Thu and linh nam chich quai.


Yes, the bold part is near to the truth. The Viets came from Austroindonesian islands. They settled down in the red river delta and mixed with mongolian settlers coming from the North.

This german travel guide tells a bit about the story.


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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> It was shown on Pro7, a private german television.
> 
> Pho can be eaten thoughout the day. Viet rice becomes increasing popular, overtaking Thai rice recently in terms of shipment to overseas.



Have you heard of Guilin Rice noodle? For me, it's better taste than pho. Pho is not spicy at all. But my friend loves pho VERY MUCH of a nearby Vietnamese Restaurant. Everyday he went there to eat pho.

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## EastSea

*Van Than noodle (mỳ vằn thắn) in Hang Chieu.*

Last time I have been to Hanoi, I tasted it. It is Cantonese noodle.






Van Than noodle (mỳ vằn thắn) in Hang Chieu | Hanoi street food | Hanoi Free Walking Tours - Espeed Club | Hanoi Free Walking Tours

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## Viet

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Have you heard of *Guilin Rice noodle*? For me, it's better taste than pho. Pho is not spicy at all. But my friend loves pho VERY MUCH of a nearby Vietnamese Restaurant. Everyday he went there to eat pho.


no, the dish looks a bit weird to me. I love Dim Sum. When I visited Chinatown in London recently, I discovered many restaurants offering Vietnamese spring rolls and Pho. It is a challenge to cook good Pho. It is a science itself.








Lux de Veritas said:


> Look like my sisters.
> 
> *Chinese Thai 中国傣族*
> View attachment 12438
> 
> 
> 
> laotian girl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Thai and Myanmese admit they migrated from Southern China.


this girl is HOT, but she does not look like a native laotian. She looks japanese.

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## kbd-raaf

So much to my half-Viet girlfriend's chagrin, my family and I are going to Vietnam for a 5 day visit in April next year. 

We're definitely going to Hanoi, do you guys have any recommendations for locations/places to visit etc?


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## Viet

kbd-raaf said:


> So much to my half-Viet girlfriend's chagrin, my family and I are going to Vietnam for a 5 day visit in April next year.
> 
> We're definitely going to *Hanoi*, do you guys have any recommendations for locations/places to visit etc?


depending on what you like. you can either do visiting popular places like any other tourist
Things to do in Hanoi: Check out 86 Hanoi Attractions - TripAdvisor
or ask your Viet girlfriend. I´m sure she knows the best places to go or her relatives will show you the citiy.


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## kbd-raaf

Viet said:


> depending on what you like. you can either do visiting popular places like any other tourist
> Things to do in Hanoi: Check out 86 Hanoi Attractions - TripAdvisor
> or ask your Viet girlfriend. I´m sure she knows the best places to go or her relatives will show you the citiy.



Lol that's just it, I can't tell her I'm going there, she would want to go with me.

My mother's worried about safety and such. Do people speak in English?

edit: I mean April THIS year.


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## Viet

kbd-raaf said:


> Lol *that's just it*, I can't tell her I'm going there, she would want to go with me.
> 
> My mother's worried about safety and such. Do people speak in *English*?
> 
> edit: I mean April THIS year.


I´m afraid that´s it.

If you think Vietnam offers too litle for your money, or the country poses uncalculated risk for your personal safety, then it is better to stay away. The Viet people speak Vietnamese.


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## NiceGuy

kbd-raaf said:


> Lol that's just it, I can't tell her I'm going there, she would want to go with me.
> 
> My mother's worried about safety and such. Do people speak in English?
> 
> edit: I mean April THIS year.


Beware of pick pocket on street. Dont use expensive smart phone, dont wear gold,diamon chain on street, gun is not allowed, so VN is quite safe. Try to bargain when buying anything on street. If u visit Ho Chi MInh city, u should come to Pham Ngu Lao st, district 1. There are a lot of foreigners there, its good for u to have some good information abt VN.


> Sleepless night on the “Street of Foreigners” in Saigon
> _VietNamNet Bridge – “Pho Tay” (street of foreigners) is a familiar address as well as the gathering place of foreign visitors in Ho Chi Minh City._
> 
> The “Pho Tay – Saigon” is the common name of the area covering the streets of Pham Ngu Lao, Bui Vien, De Tham, Do Quang Dau and the neighboring areas, in Pham Ngu Lao Ward, District 1, Ho Chi Minh City.
> 
> This area is the home to a lot of hotels, motels, restaurants, travel centers and travel services for foreign backpackers. "Pho Tay" has become a familiar address and the gathering place of foreign visitors to the city.
> 
> The living rhythm in “Pho Tay” is always fast and noisy, especially at night. During the daytime, foreign visitors can travel to other places but at night, they return to “Pho Tay” to relax, entertain and experience the pavement life of Saigon. The night in “Pho Tay” is colorful in lights and the colors of varied culture.
> 
> “Pho Tay” does not sleep at night, with a lot of fun, sadness and happiness in the life span of Saigon.
> 
> *Some pictures of "Pho Tay":*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Part of “Pho Tay” looking from above._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The junction of Do Quang Dau - Bui Vien with lots of restaurants and bars. There is also a group of xe om (motorbike taxi drivers) waiting for passengers.
> Sleepless night on the “Street of Foreigners” in Saigon - News VietNamNet_



And u can ask me abt VN on the forum when u come to VN, too


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## kbd-raaf

Viet said:


> I´m afraid that´s it.
> 
> If you think Vietnam offers too litle for your money, or the country poses uncalculated risk for your personal safety, then it is better to stay away. The Viet people speak Vietnamese.



Ah darn, I don't know more than a few phrases in Vietnamese. 

Oh I don't think it's a security risk. I just want to make sure everything goes well 



> Beware of pick pocket on street, gun is not allowed, so VN is quite safe. If u visit Ho Chi MInh city, u should come to Pham Ngu Lao st, district 1. There are a lot of foreigners there, its good for u to have some good information abt VN.



I don't really want to go where other foreigners are. I want to see the authentic Vietnam, the villages, the cultural centres that sort of thing.


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## NiceGuy

kbd-raaf said:


> I don't really want to go where other foreigners are. I want to see the authentic Vietnam, the villages, the cultural centres that sort of thing.


First, come to Pham Ngu Lao st, they will tell u where u can see the authentic Vietnam and how do u go there. (I normally use motorbike, so I dont know much abt Bus Travel )

In the South VN, I suggest u should visit My Tho, Ben Tre, Can Tho where u can see VN villages , in the North u can visit Phu Tho, Hai Phong, Quang Ninh, Thai Binh, Sa Pa . Remember : Dont wear anything look expensive( even expensive camera) for ur own safety.

A Co Loa citadel is good place to visit and its near Ha Noi


> *Cổ Loa Citadel*
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Map of Co Loa Citadel, red is the wall, blue is the water, green is the trees
> *Cổ Loa Citadel* (Vietnamese: _Thành Cổ Loa_) is a citadel built near Phong Khe, about 20 km to the North of today’s Hanoi, during the end of the Hồng Bàng Dynasty (about 257 BCE). The fortress is a spiral-shaped complex of the then new capital. Its name is derived from the Sino-Vietnamese 古螺, meaning "old spiral." The site has been the source of various relics of the Dong Son culture of the Bronze Age.[1]

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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> I am *Fujian *Quanzhou ancestry 3rd generation Singaporean, Taiwanese/Min Nan speaker. You wont understand my lect. What is your lect Fattyacids


in the 16 centuries, many Chinese merchants from Fujian, Kanton and Hainan came to Vietnam. They settled down in Hoi An (Faifo), a port city in central Vietnam. Not only merchants but also common Chinese citizen fled to VN after the collapse of the Ming Dynasty. Many overseas Chinese communities today living in Malacca, Penang, Jakarta or Singapore had their forefathers, who came to Faifo first.

Perhaps your forefather came from Vietnam, too. 

_Fujian meeting hall in Hoi An_


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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> It was shown on Pro7, a private german television.
> 
> 
> Pho can be eaten thoughout the day. Viet rice becomes increasing popular, overtaking Thai rice recently in terms of shipment to overseas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, it is a french heritage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thks. I read the VN government is working on a plan to turn the largest island of VN, Phu Quoc, into a second Singapore. That would be great.
> VGP News | Singapore invited to invest in Phu Quoc Island - Singapore invited to invest in Phu Quoc Island




About the egg, I doubt this report, cause I travel around China,and never heard about that.Did this TV report have a video or pic ?
BTW, if people want to know about China food, google "a bite of china", it is a very nice video which introduce kinds of food around china.

About the Pho.Just like the pic, when I was in US. I went to VN restaurant many times, every time I would like to order VN noodle with super boul, it was very tasty and the basil had very special smell.

About the bread .I have a friend work in Saigon as a swim coach, he tells me about that , and people can the bread fresh or not by pinch it , is it right ?


It depends on which kind of industry VN gov want to develop . If the environment protocol is very strict , small local company might be very hard to compete with foreign company, because it do cost a lot of money


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## Lux de Veritas

Viet said:


> in the 16 centuries, many Chinese merchants from Fujian, Kanton and Hainan came to Vietnam. They settled down in Hoi An (Faifo), a port city in central Vietnam. Not only merchants but also common Chinese citizen fled to VN after the collapse of the Ming Dynasty. Many overseas Chinese communities today living in Malacca, Penang, Jakarta or Singapore had their forefathers, who came to Faifo first.
> 
> Perhaps your forefather came from Vietnam, too.
> 
> _Fujian meeting hall in Hoi An_



My ancestor from Quanzhou 泉州, Fujian 福建。 Quanzhou was the biggest port in China for many years until the Qing Dynasty.

There are many Vietnamese in Singapore nowadays and you will be surprise how fast they pick up Mandarin. They speak like native speaker. The Vietnamese can pass off as Singaporean Chinese. The girls are extremely beautiful and a lot of us want to marry them. Vietnamese do not even need to integrate. There are already integrated. I cannot tell a Vietnamese and Singaporean Chinese apart.

Same as all other oversea Chinese.

But mainland Chinese is different. We can identify a northern Chinese easily. All mainland Chinese behave a little differently but their 2nd generation is just like us.

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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> About the egg, *I doubt this report*, cause I travel around China,and never heard about that.Did this TV report have a video or pic ?
> BTW, if people want to know about China food, google "a bite of china", it is a very nice video which introduce kinds of food around china.


I don´t lie. The report was shown in german tv. By google, find this report immediately
Urine-soaked eggs a spring taste treat in China city| Reuters


Kyle Sun said:


> About the Pho.Just like the pic, when I was in US. I went to VN restaurant many times, every time I would like to order VN noodle with super boul, it was very tasty and the basil had very special smell.


if you got a chance, go to San Jose (CA), where you can visit a Vietnamese city, "little Saigon". They serve best Pho´s in America. Order a giant bowl, you will be surprised.


Kyle Sun said:


> About the bread .I have a friend work in Saigon as a swim coach, he tells me about that , and people can the bread fresh or not by pinch it , is it right ?


depending on what you like. At breakfast many Vietnamese eat french bread like the French: pure fresh bread with milk coffee.







Kyle Sun said:


> It depends on which kind of industry VN gov want to develop . If the environment protocol is very strict , small local company might be very hard to compete with foreign company, because it do cost a lot of money


ideally Phu Quoc will become a clone to Singapore.

First steps are done. The island has been connected national power grid recently. Hopefully Singapore government and companies will support the plan with money and human resources. The VN government has decided recently:
- visa free to all tourists for 30 days
- island will come under direct control of the central government
- all investors will enjoy extremely low tax rate
- new north-south highway
- upgrade the exising airport and sea port to international level


Vietnam latest news - Thanh Nien Daily | 
No visas for visitors as Vietnam island woos investors

Singapore





but that is a long way to go. At present the island looks so:

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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> My ancestor from Quanzhou 泉州, Fujian 福建。 Quanzhou was the biggest port in China for many years until the Qing Dynasty.
> 
> There are many Vietnamese in Singapore nowadays and you will be surprise how fast they pick up Mandarin.* They speak like native speaker.* The Vietnamese can pass off as Singaporean Chinese. The girls are extremely beautiful and a lot of us want to marry them. Vietnamese do not even need to integrate. There are already integrated. I cannot tell a Vietnamese and Singaporean Chinese apart.
> 
> Same as all other oversea Chinese.
> 
> But mainland Chinese is different. We can identify a northern Chinese easily. All mainland Chinese behave a little differently but their 2nd generation is just like us.


he he he...you seem to be a fan of Vietnam.


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## EastSea

Prysmian Group, world leader in the energy and telecom cable systems industry, has been awarded a contract by the Vietnamese utility EVNSPC (Southern Power Corporation under Vietnam Electricity) worth a total of Euro 67 million for the design, supply, installation, and commissioning of a submarine power cable link to connect Phu Quoc Island to the national power grid in Vietnam.
*
Phu Quoc hooks up to national power grid.







*

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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> I don´t lie. The report was shown in german tv. By google, find this report immediately
> Urine-soaked eggs a spring taste treat in China city| Reuters
> 
> if you got a chance, go to San Jose (CA), where you can visit a Vietnamese city, "little Saigon". They serve best Pho´s in America. Order a giant bowl, you will be surprised.
> 
> depending on what you like. At breakfast many Vietnamese eat french bread like the French: pure fresh bread with milk coffee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ideally Phu Quoc will become a clone to Singapore.
> 
> First steps are done. The island has been connected national power grid recently. Hopefully Singapore government and companies will support the plan with money and human resources. The VN government has decided recently:
> - visa free to all tourists for 30 days
> - island will come under direct control of the central government
> - all investors will enjoy extremely low tax rate
> - new north-south highway
> - upgrade the exising airport and sea port to international level
> 
> 
> Vietnam latest news - Thanh Nien Daily |
> No visas for visitors as Vietnam island woos investors
> 
> Singapore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but that is a long way to go. At present the island looks so:



Holy crap! I check local news of Dongyang ,you are right !!!Unbelievable habit!

I have never been to San jose, I went to Phoniex /Tuson/LA/SD

Next time I will go to SJ!!

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## NiceGuy

Hj, its not related to history, but I think VNese here also love football, so I will post news abt U19-Nutifood Cup here. 


> (VOV) – The U19 Tottenham and U19 Japan teams arrived in Ho Chi Minh City on January 4 ahead of the upcoming Nutifood Cup (January 6-10).
> 
> 
> National U19 football tourney to open next month
> U19 Vietnam to play international friendlies
> U19 Japan to play in Vietnam
> U19 Tottenham consist of first and second year students from the Tottenham Football Education Academy.
> 
> Serbia’s midfielder Milos Veljkovic is otherwise occupied,selected to play in Tottenham’s third round FA Cup tie against Arsenal.
> 
> U19 Japan, coached by Suziki Masakazu, enjoy an impressive height advantage over their Vietnamese rivals.
> 
> U19 AS Roma have sent advanced scouts ahead of their arrival in HCM City on January 5.
> 
> The organising board will hold a press briefing to exchange information with participating teams.
> 
> Five teams will contest the Nutifood Cup: Vietnam’s two U19 football squads, U19 Japan, U19 AS Roma, and U19 Tottenham Hotspur.
> 
> Some images of U 19 Japan’s training on Military Zone 7′s stadium:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tottenham, Japan arrive for Nutifood Cup — Vietmaz



U19 Japan,Tottenham, AS Roma are strong team, but U 19 VietNam is not weak,too. We trounced U 19 Australia 5-1, hope we can do something amazing in this cup


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## yue10

I will destroy the tourism industry in VN, wherever their is tourist hotspot there is sexual predators, I cannot allow that country to be defiled like the rest of Asia
thank you and namaste, please stop killing my people with your greed for money >:{

[video]



[/video]
[video]



[/video]

In recent years, Putnam has been engaged in a comprehensive study of the relationship between trust within communities and their ethnic diversity. His conclusion based on over 40 cases and 30 000 people within the United States is that, other things being equal, *more diversity in a community is associated with less trust both between and within ethnic groups. *Although limited to American data, it puts into question both the contact hypothesis and conflict theory in inter-ethnic relations. According to conflict theory, distrust _between_ the ethnic groups will rise with diversity, but _not_ within a group. In contrast, contact theory proposes that distrust will decline as members of different ethnic groups get to know and interact with each other. Putnam describes people of all races, sex, socioeconomic statuses, and ages as "hunkering down," avoiding engagement with their local community—both among different ethnic groups and within their own ethnic group. Even when controlling for income inequality and crime rates, two factors which conflict theory states should be the prime causal factors in declining inter-ethnic group trust, more diversity is still associated with less communal trust.

Lowered trust in areas with high diversity is also associated with:

Lower confidence in local government, local leaders and the local news media.
Lower political efficacy – that is, confidence in one's own influence.
Lower frequency of registering to vote, but more interest and knowledge about politics and more participation in protest marches and social reform groups.
Higher political advocacy, but lower expectations that it will bring about a desirable result.
Less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action (e.g., voluntary conservation to ease a water or energy shortage).
Less likelihood of working on a community project.
Less likelihood of giving to charity or volunteering.
Fewer close friends and confidants.
Less happiness and lower perceived quality of life.
More time spent watching television and more agreement that "television is my most important form of entertainment".


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## EastSea




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## NiceGuy

Yesterday, AS Roma beat Vietnam 2-1 in U19 friendly, but Im satisfied with U 19 VN's pressing during the match 

Watch this link to see U -19 showing their skills
Xem video clip Những show trình diễn kỹ thuật của U19 Việt Nam - VnExpress


> AS Roma defeated Vietnam 2-1 in their first match of the International U19 FootballTournament in HCM City on January 6.
> 
> Valerio Trani scored a double for the visiting side while Le Van Son found the only goal for the hosts.
> 
> The Vietnamese boys started the game in high spirits after recent successes, egged on by fans who had turned up in droves.
> 
> They quickly set the pace of the match with consecutive attacks since the whistle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phuong missed scoring chances in U19 Vietnam's debut at thetournament (Photo: Tung Le)
> 
> Nguyen Cong Phuong and Hong Thanh Truong needed just eight minutes toproduce the first threat of a goal against the Italians, but Roma custodian Lorenzo Zonfrilli had the better of the ensuring exchange.
> 
> Phuong proved to be the sharpest player for the hosts, repeatedly testing Zonfrilli continuously. He had the spectators stand up with a 13th minute strike, but his shot found the left pole and bounced back.
> 
> Just a minute later, Zonfrilli was defeated for the second time, but Phuong’s tap in was stopped just in time by a defender.
> 
> The Vietnamese treats did not faze the AS Roma players, however. They found the opening goal from a rapid counter-attack.
> 
> Daniele Verde, receiving the ball from Jacopo Ferri’s pass in the box, heeled it back to Trani, who ran in from the outside to slot the ball into a goal.
> 
> The hosts were able to level proceedings with a penalty i the 34th minute that striker Son duly converted.
> 
> The equaliser motivated the hosts to dominate the proceedings and create a series of opportunities, but they were unable to find the net. Train scored te winning goal for the visitors with a rapid run that left the Vietnamese defenders napping.
> 
> Coach Guiilaume Graechen’s effected two changes in the line up, but they did not work. His side came close to conceding a third goal in the 85th minute, when the Republic of Korean referee awarded a penalty to the hosts. Truong successfully stopped a straight shot by Adamo Matteo.
> 
> In thelast minute, Phuong missed another scoring chance with a shot that went straight into Zonfrilli’s hands.
> 
> Their victory helped AS Roma share top position with English Premier League’s Tottenham Hotspurs, who had earlier come from behind to beat Japan- 2-1 in the opening match.
> 
> In the next round n January 8, Vietnam will play Japan, and AS Roma will faceTottenham Hotspur.
> 
> The winners of the tournament, which will be decided after the third round on January 10, will win a bonus of US$100,000, a prize-money record for the tournamentorganised by the Vietnam Football Federation.
> AS Roma beat Vietnam in U19 friendly — TalkVietnam


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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> Holy crap! I check local news of Dongyang ,you are right !!!Unbelievable habit!
> 
> I have never been to *San jose*, I went to Phoniex /Tuson/LA/SD
> 
> Next time I will go to SJ!!


San Jose and Westminster have the most Vietnamese population in America. Check out for "little Saigon". SJ is said to host the richest Vietnamese community in the States, thanks to the proximity to Silicon Valley. I was there.

Little Saigon in San Jose (CA)







Little Saigon in Westminster (CA)


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## yue10

foreigner animals and sexual predators please listen to me, Annam is a huge dump! please take your monies and go elsewhere, that's what Thailand and Phillipines exist for, don't listen to the Annams on PDF, they are no good capitalist pigs love money 

here is what expert said but it doesn't take genius to know these things
Tourism in many Third World countries is little more than whorism.
Visitor behavior can have a detrimental effect on the quality of life of the host community. For example, crowding and congestion, drugs and alcohol problems, prostitution and increased crime levels can occur. Tourism can even infringe on human rights, with locals being displaced from their land to make way for new hotels or barred from beaches. Interaction with tourists can also lead to an erosion of traditional cultures and values. >:{


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## Viet

yue10 said:


> foreigner animals and sexual predators please listen to me, Annam is a huge dump! please take your monies and go elsewhere, that's what Thailand and Phillipines exist for, don't listen to the Annams on PDF, they are no good capitalist pigs love money
> .. >:{


you are a *PSYCHOPATH*.


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## yue10

Viet said:


> you are a *PSYCHOPATH*.


verily, verily, I say unto you
thank you for your kind words and peace be upon you : )

the greedy Annams is true untermenschen race welcomed barbaric sexual predators onto their soils! -_-


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## EastSea




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## Mr Second

Viet said:


> We are a family.
> 
> The Viets and Southern Han´s are much closer in terms of look than to the Northern Han´s. Nevertherless we all share the same cultures and custom. Many Viets consider the Southern Hans (Cantonese) as their true brothers and sisters as we both lived a country called NamViet in ancient times.
> 
> One of the major differences between the Viets and the Han´s lies the position of women in the society. Traditionally Viets women have more say and right than their sisters in China.


Yep, quite agree with that^^ Ancient Girls in rich Chinese family even cannot meet unknown guys before wedding.

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## Mr Second

kbd-raaf said:


> Lol that's just it, I can't tell her I'm going there, she would want to go with me.
> 
> My mother's worried about safety and such. Do people speak in English?
> 
> edit: I mean April THIS year.


People in Hanoi can speak English quite good, so dont worry. About Vietnamese language, you dont and cannot learn it if not staying there forever, since Vietnamese has six different tone accents,(Chinese Mandarin has 4) and different accents can be made up with different meanings, which situation I'm afraid only can be found in East Asia. At last, dont forget buy some VND before you leave hometown. Using USD or changing money directly in local sometimes cannot have a good price. At last, no need to worry about safety, but as a same discipline: Dont go out in the midnight,


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## Mr Second

Viet said:


> I´m afraid that´s it.
> 
> If you think Vietnam offers too litle for your money, or the country poses uncalculated risk for your personal safety, then it is better to stay away. The Viet people speak Vietnamese.


Hey brother, dont be angry. Thinking to much is quite normal especially when people first time come a new place. Understand^^


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## ChineseTiger1986

Are you truy a "桑海宁"?

How come you have married a Vietnamese girl?


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## Mr Second

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Are you truy a "桑海宁"?
> 
> How come you have married a Vietnamese girl?


Yes, I'm from Shanghai and I met my wife when I studied in Norway.


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## Mr Second

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Are you truy a "桑海宁"?
> 
> How come you have married a Vietnamese girl?


胡班交侬上海闲话，特些筒伤班起则。88


----------



## kbd-raaf

Mr Second said:


> People in Hanoi can speak English quite good, so dont worry. About Vietnamese language, you dont and cannot learn it if not staying there forever, since Vietnamese has six different tone accents,(Chinese Mandarin has 4) and different accents can be made up with different meanings, which situation I'm afraid only can be found in East Asia. At last, dont forget buy some VND before you leave hometown. Using USD or changing money directly in local sometimes cannot have a good price. At last, no need to worry about safety, but as a same discipline: Dont go out in the midnight,



Mhm, my trips looking a bit iffy now. Might not be able to go because of work troubles


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## ChineseTiger1986

Mr Second said:


> 胡班交侬上海闲话，特些筒伤班起则。88



I am Shanghainese as well, you don't have to teach me this, but i just don't like to read Shanghainese in writing.

BTW, we have to keep our conversation in English in this forum, it is the rule.


----------



## Mr Second

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I am Shanghainese as well, you don't have to teach me this, but i just don't like to read Shanghainese in writing.
> 
> BTW, we have to keep our conversation in English in this forum, it is the rule.


ok, understand^^


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## Viet

Mr Second said:


> People in Hanoi can speak English quite good, so dont worry. About Vietnamese language, you dont and cannot learn it if not staying there forever, since Vietnamese has six different tone accents,(Chinese Mandarin has 4) and different accents can be made up with different meanings, which situation I'm afraid only can be found in East Asia. At last, dont forget buy some VND before you leave hometown. Using USD or changing money directly in local sometimes cannot have a good price.* At last, no need to worry about safety, but as a same discipline: Dont go out in the midnight*,


Vietnam is a safe place. You can feel as safe as in Europe. It is never a problem to go out midnight.

Heat map: Terrorism around the world (the U.S. is among the least affected)

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## Mr Second

Viet said:


> Vietnam is a safe place. You can feel as safe as in Europe. It is never a problem to go out midnight.
> 
> Heat map: Terrorism around the world (the U.S. is among the least affected)


Sitiuation is getting worse, haha. (joking)


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## SimonTagawa

Viet said:


> can any Chinese tell me in what year and country this painting below shows?


 
*Động Kinh *(Tonkin) is the name of Hanoi, Vietnam from 1430 to 1831. 
This painting show two monks (an old man with fan and a young boy to the left) with shaved head, which are common shave-style for monks during this era. The attires depicted are common during the 1400s to early 1600s in Vietnam.

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## NiceGuy

SimonTagawa said:


> *Động Kinh *(Tonkin) is the name of Hanoi, Vietnam from 1430 to 1831.
> This painting show two monks (an old man with fan and a young boy to the left) with shaved head, which are common shave-style for monks during this era. The attires depicted are common during the 1400s to early 1600s in Vietnam.


Đông Kinh (Kingdom in the East), not 'Động Kinh', bro. 'Động Kinh' is brain disease


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## EastSea

NiceGuy said:


> Đông Kinh (Kingdom in the East), not 'Động Kinh', bro. 'Động Kinh' is brain disease



It is typing mistake bro.

Here is pic of part of Citadel of Tây Đô relics ( Western Capital or Tây Kinh) of Vietnam, in Thanh Hóa Province.

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## Cyberian

From what period and for how long was Vietnam part of China?


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## Rechoice

SUPARCO said:


> From what period and for how long was Vietnam part of China?



are you chinese ?


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## Aepsilons

SimonTagawa said:


> *Động Kinh *(Tonkin) is the name of Hanoi, Vietnam from 1430 to 1831.
> This painting show two monks (an old man with fan and a young boy to the left) with shaved head, which are common shave-style for monks during this era. The attires depicted are common during the 1400s to early 1600s in Vietnam.



Interesting.


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## somsak

Any one can tell me Vietnamese version of Annam-Siam war?


----------



## Viet

somsak said:


> Any one can tell me Vietnamese version of Annam-Siam war?


first of all, Annam is the not correct name for this period, but Dai Viet. Annam (peaceful South) was the former name when Vietnam was under Chinese rule. the name was changed later to Dai Viet (Great Viet). the war became unavoidable as Siam Kingdom sought hegemony in Laos and Cambodia.

In short, 3 wars were fought between Vietnam and Siam.

1785: Vietnamese victory
1831-34: Vietnamese victory
1841-45: undecided. Peace treaty, Cambodia was placed under joint Siamese-Vietnamese protection.








Vietnam became later the dominant power over Laos and Cambodia.

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## Battle of Bach Dang River

SimonTagawa said:


> *Động Kinh *(Tonkin) is the name of Hanoi, Vietnam from 1430 to 1831.
> This painting show two monks (an old man with fan and a young boy to the left) with shaved head, which are common shave-style for monks during this era. The attires depicted are common during the 1400s to early 1600s in Vietnam.



"*Tonkin*" also named of *Northern Vietnam* in the past.
A sea gulf located next to North Vietnam that called "*Gulf of Tonkin*",

*Tonkin*, or "*Dong Kinh*", the same meaning with *Tokyo*, Japan.

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## Viet

SUPARCO said:


> From what period and for how long was Vietnam part of China?


I take the times from wiki:

111–40 *1st Chinese domination*
43–544 *2nd Chinese domination*
602–938 *3rd Chinese domination*
1407–1427 *4th Chinese domination*


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## Battle of Bach Dang River

somsak said:


> Any one can tell me Vietnamese version of Annam-Siam war?



*This is the international version:*
One of the renown victories in Vietnamese Naval history was the Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút in Tây Sơn Dynasty, during which Nguyễn Huệ (Emperor Quang Trung) defeated the Siamese (Thai) naval force. The battle occurred in present-day Tiền Giang Province on January 19, 1785. Nguyễn Huệ's forces completely destroyed over 50,000 Siamese sailors and 300 warships.

*This is Vietnamese version:*
*:: Lich su Viet Nam ::*






A Monument of Victory over Siam:

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## Cyberian

Viet said:


> I take the times from wiki:
> 
> 111–40 *1st Chinese domination*
> 43–544 *2nd Chinese domination*
> 602–938 *3rd Chinese domination*
> 1407–1427 *4th Chinese domination*



Wow, that was a very long time ago.


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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> I take the times from wiki:
> 
> 111–40 *1st Chinese domination*
> 43–544 *2nd Chinese domination*
> 602–938 *3rd Chinese domination*
> 1407–1427 *4th Chinese domination*



Good, Vietnam and China were once a country, we had close relation.


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## Kyle Sun

Edison Chen said:


> Good, Vietnam and China were once a country, we had close relation.






Viet said:


> I take the times from wiki:
> 
> 111–40 *1st Chinese domination*
> 43–544 *2nd Chinese domination*
> 602–938 *3rd Chinese domination*
> 1407–1427 *4th Chinese domination*


You forget the Qing Dynasty .


----------



## Edison Chen

Kyle Sun said:


> You forget the Qing Dynasty .



 joking


----------



## xesy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Interesting.


Hey I often see Chinese authors refer Tokyo as "Đông Kinh" in their works. Does the kanji character of Tokyo relate to East Center somehow?



Battle of Bach Dang River said:


> *This is the international version:*
> One of the renown victories in Vietnamese Naval history was the Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút in Tây Sơn Dynasty, during which Nguyễn Huệ (Emperor Quang Trung) defeated the Siamese (Thai) naval force. The battle occurred in present-day Tiền Giang Province on January 19, 1785. Nguyễn Huệ's forces completely destroyed over 50,000 Siamese sailors and 300 warships.
> 
> *This is Vietnamese version:
> :: Lich su Viet Nam ::*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Monument of Victory over Siam:


One of the greatest commander of VN history. There is legend saying that he was planning to march to the North after his victory again 220.000 Qing army, but there were dispute among his brothers and then the remaining of the former dynasty. He passed away too soon. There are people who says that if he had lived for like 30 more years, VN wouldn't have needed Uncle Ho Chi Minh.

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## Aepsilons

xesy said:


> Hey I often see Chinese authors refer Tokyo as "Đông Kinh" in their works. Does the kanji character of Tokyo relate to East Center somehow?



Very correct, my friend. Tō means "east" and Kyō means "capital," so together they mean "east(ern) capital."

In the past, Tokyo was known as 'EDO', but when EDO was made the Imperial Capital, it was renamed to TOKYO.



Viet said:


> first of all, Annam is the not correct name for this period, but Dai Viet. Annam (peaceful South) was the former name when Vietnam was under Chinese rule. the name was changed later to Dai Viet (Great Viet). the war became unavoidable as Siam Kingdom sought hegemony in Laos and Cambodia.
> 
> In short, 3 wars were fought between Vietnam and Siam.
> 
> 1785: Vietnamese victory
> 1831-34: Vietnamese victory
> 1841-45: undecided. Peace treaty, Cambodia was placed under joint Siamese-Vietnamese protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam became later the dominant power over Laos and Cambodia.




I am not surprised by Viet Nam's victories against native South East Asian civilizations (Cham, Mon-Khmer, Siamese). Annam / Dai Viet, as an entity that was influenced by Chinese civilization also learned Chinese art of war and the Confucian culture of collective effort for the 'state'. This proved effective against native south east asian civilizations , which had been of Hindu-buddhist in culture and in the art of war.

The Vietnamese Total War against the Cham Kingdom and ultimately eradicating the Cham civilization reminds me of the Qin State's policy to eradicate the Zhu State during the Warring States Period. Qin Shi Huang had ordered the extermination of the Zhu State, then the arch nemesis of the State of Qin. In this regard, the Vietnamese borrowed much from the Chinese in art of war.

Viet Nam is inherently an East Asian (Confucian) Civilization. It is of the same stock as Japan, Korea and the Chinese.

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## somsak

Battle of Bach Dang River said:


> *This is the international version:*
> One of the renown victories in Vietnamese Naval history was the Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút in Tây Sơn Dynasty, during which Nguyễn Huệ (Emperor Quang Trung) defeated the Siamese (Thai) naval force. The battle occurred in present-day Tiền Giang Province on January 19, 1785. Nguyễn Huệ's forces completely destroyed over 50,000 Siamese sailors and 300 warships.
> 
> *This is Vietnamese version:
> :: Lich su Viet Nam ::*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Monument of Victory over Siam:


The war plan of Siam looked so simple. From the image above.



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Very correct, my friend. Tō means "east" and Kyō means "capital," so together they mean "east(ern) capital."
> 
> In the past, Tokyo was known as 'EDO', but when EDO was made the Imperial Capital, it was renamed to TOKYO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not surprised by Viet Nam's victories against native South East Asian civilizations (Cham, Mon-Khmer, Siamese). Annam / Dai Viet, as an entity that was influenced by Chinese civilization also learned Chinese art of war and the Confucian culture of collective effort for the 'state'. This proved effective against native south east asian civilizations , which had been of Hindu-buddhist in culture and in the art of war.
> 
> The Vietnamese Total War against the Cham Kingdom and ultimately eradicating the Cham civilization reminds me of the Qin State's policy to eradicate the Zhu State during the Warring States Period. Qin Shi Huang had ordered the extermination of the Zhu State, then the arch nemesis of the State of Qin. In this regard, the Vietnamese borrowed much from the Chinese in art of war.
> 
> Viet Nam is inherently an East Asian (Confucian) Civilization. It is of the same stock as Japan, Korea and the Chinese.


Dis vietnam has access to Chinese historical war books? I know their scholar use classi cal chinese for writong.


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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> You forget the Qing Dynasty .


No, Dai Viet was an independent nation, like Vietnam today.

We only paid tribute to the Qing, like we did to other chinese dynasties. Generally paying tribute is a common form of diplomacy in ancient China. It is about of trade and foreign relations, how China saw other nations. And of course, by paying tribute we accepted China's dominance of the region, and last but not least we made you happy to have the feeling of being the center of the world


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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> No, Dai Viet was an independent nation, like Vietnam today.
> 
> We only paid tribute to the Qing, like we did to other chinese dynasties. Generally paying tribute is a common form of diplomacy in ancient China. It is about of trade and foreign relations, how China saw other nations. And of course, by paying tribute we accepted China's dominance of the region, and last but not least we made you happy to have the feeling of being the center of the world


So you are happy to tribute to us ?


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## xesy

Kyle Sun said:


> So you are happy to tribute to us ?


It's like the police take money from street vendors. Police get some for a night snack, street vendors save some from being forced to move to other area. Both side are happy. Of course ancient VNese were scared of China too, it was a giant and more developed civilization. Acient VN fought China not because we were a battle harden race like Sparta, but because there were little options left.


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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> So you are happy to tribute to us ?


of course we were very happy to pay tribute to the son of heaven and received peace in return.
but sometimes it is you that was not happy just receiving gift, but wanted Vietnam to become once again a province.

if necessary by force. I bet your dream still lives on even today.


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## Kyle Sun

xesy said:


> It's like the police take money from street vendors. Police get some for a night snack, street vendors save some from being forced to move to other area. Both side are happy. Of course ancient VNese were scared of China too, it was a giant and more developed civilization. Acient VN fought China not because we were a battle harden race like Sparta, but because there were little options left.


You are some kind of right .
China Central Gov did not care about the footy tribute but the political position of suzerain


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## Viet

somsak said:


> The war plan of Siam looked so simple. From the image above.


a classical ambush


somsak said:


> Dis vietnam has access to *Chinese historical war books*? I know their scholar use classi cal chinese for writong.


do you refer to the art of war of Sun Tzu? ha ha ha ...pretty sure. 
We were using classical chinese as standard until the system was replaced at the begining of 20 century.


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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> of course we were very happy to pay tribute to the son of heaven and received peace in return.
> but sometimes it is you that was not happy just receiving gift, but wanted Vietnam to become once again a province.
> 
> if necessary by force. I bet your dream still lives on even today.


Our central govs did not attack or annex Vietnam once Viet admitted to be vassal state .


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## EastSea

Kyle Sun said:


> Our central govs did not attack or annex Vietnam once Viet admitted to be vassal state .



No.

It stated in our history: "Chinese envoy using la langue of animal to insult the court. .."

in Vietnamese: << Uốn lưỡi cú diều mà sỉ mắng triều đình >>

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## Kyle Sun

EastSea said:


> No.
> 
> It stated in our history: "Chinese envoy using la langue of animal to insult the court. .."
> 
> in Vietnamese: << Uốn lưỡi cú diều mà sỉ mắng triều đình >>


To be specific please.


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## EastSea

Kyle Sun said:


> To be specific please.



I copy here another translation in English, it is better than what I did:

"We have seen the enemy ambassadors haughtily traveling over our roads and wagging their owlish tongues to insult the Court. Despicable as dogs and goats, they boldly humiliate our high officials."

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## mrfly911

EastSea said:


> No.
> 
> It stated in our history: "Chinese envoy using la langue of animal to insult the court. .."
> 
> in Vietnamese: << Uốn lưỡi cú diều mà sỉ mắng triều đình >>


C'mon bro! Please give the world some thing neutral.


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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> Our central govs did not attack or annex Vietnam once Viet admitted to be *vassal *state .


you know certainly being a vassal does not equal to being a *province *of China. It is somewhat superficial. it is a form of diplomacy in ancient times where China was viewed in the center and other nations as satellites or vassal states.

why did ancient China intervene when there were internal conflicts in Vietnam or when we had conflicts with our neighbors? the wars involving the Ming and Qing were two examples.


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## Grand Historian

Vietnamese logic:Raid Chinese provinces capturing land,people and resources,complains when Chinese send forces to invade Vietnam as a result of Vietnamese aggression.


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## EastSea

mrfly911 said:


> C'mon bro! Please give the world some thing neutral.



It is written in 諭諸裨將檄文; do you know it ?


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## mrfly911

EastSea said:


> It is written in 諭諸裨將檄文; do you know it ?


It said about Mongolian, not Chinese.


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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> you know certainly being a vassal does not equal to being a *province *of China. It is somewhat superficial. it is a form of diplomacy in ancient times where China was viewed in the center and other nations as satellites or vassal states.
> 
> why did ancient China intervene when there were internal conflicts in Vietnam or when we had conflicts with our neighbors? the wars involving the Ming and Qing were two examples.


Vassal state is not equal to province , you are right .

The reason why Ming and Qing intervened Viet is some guy pretended to coup the legal Gov which was recognized by our GOV 

Or the legal Gov wanted to be fully independent.



EastSea said:


> I copy here another translation in English, it is better than what I did:
> 
> "We have seen the enemy ambassadors haughtily traveling over our roads and wagging their owlish tongues to insult the Court. Despicable as dogs and goats, they boldly humiliate our high officials."


So it was just bad words not military invade ?


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## EastSea

mrfly911 said:


> It said about Mongolian, not Chinese.



when you have time to read posts of Chinese members on PDF here, Chinese claimed that Mongolian are Chinese in nationality and Yuan Dynasty is official Dynasty of China, Huang Di of China is considered as Chinese.

Mongolian Chinese and Han Chinese belong to two different ethnic group in China. What was the requirement of Ming Dynasty Huang Di after Lieu Thang was killed in fighting in Vietnam, ? huang di of Ming was Han Chinese .



Kyle Sun said:


> So it was just bad words not military invade ?



Yuan Dynasty army of China invaded in to Vietnam three time.

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## Kyle Sun

EastSea said:


> when you have time to read posts of Chinese members on PDF here, Chinese claimed that Mongolian are Chinese in nationality and Yuan Dynasty is official Dynasty of China, Huang Di of China is considered as Chinese.
> 
> Mongolian Chinese and Han Chinese belong to two different ethnic group in China. What was the requirement of Ming Dynasty Huang Di after Lieu Thang was killed in fighting in Vietnam, ? huang di of Ming was Han Chinese .
> 
> 
> 
> Yuan Dynasty army of China invaded in to Vietnam three time.



After Viet claimed as a vassal state of Yuan GOV , they stopped the invading .


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## EastSea

Kyle Sun said:


> After Viet claimed as a vassal state of Yuan GOV , they stopped the invading .



Viet paid some money for gifts to Yuan court for prevent more conflict with China, it was corruption money. Good business we did.

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## Kyle Sun

EastSea said:


> Viet paid some money for gifts to Yuan court for prevent more conflict with China, it was corruption money. Good business we did.


No matter what , after Viet claimed you are vassal state of Yuan , they stopped invading. 

That's why I said we did not attack Viet with no reason.


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## EastSea

Kyle Sun said:


> No matter what , after Viet claimed you are vassal state of Yuan , they stopped invading.
> 
> That's why I said we did not attack Viet with no reason.



our envoy dropped in China in the past to do policy business for peace with gift and briber money, he didn't said like that, only Chinese fabricated themselves for that.

*for vassal states existed in Ancient China only*. These ranged in size from small city states to vassals which controlled large swathes of territory such as the States of Zhou and Qi guo.

*One of these vassal states would go on to conquer China and unite the country under the first emperor Qin Shihuang*..

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## xesy

Grand Historian said:


> Vietnamese logic:Raid Chinese provinces capturing land,people and resources,complains when Chinese send forces to invade Vietnam as a result of Vietnamese aggression.


Even now with car and train, moving through the mountain area border between China and VN on land is still very troublesome. VN was also not known for having good calvary (elephant troops were well known). How came VN could raid China, then came back without a scratch? And why would we? VN was not like Mongolia. We had our own delta, our own coast. Why would we risk attacking a more advanced nation? Mongolians could do that because they had best calvary of all times. Japanese could do that because China could hardly cross the sea to attack them. What did VN have to do that? Nothing.


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## StarCraft_ZT

Vietnamese always complain about their miserable history of being "invaded".


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## dichoi

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Vietnamese always complain about their miserable history of being "invaded".



event though Champa, Thailand and Khmer Rouge they invaded in to our soil first.

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## mrfly911

StarCraft_ZT said:


> Vietnamese always complain about their miserable history of being "invaded".


Chinese don't complain about the Japanese, do they?


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## Grand Historian

xesy said:


> Even now with car and train, moving through the mountain area border between China and VN on land is still very troublesome. VN was also not known for having good calvary (elephant troops were well known). How came VN could raid China, then came back without a scratch? And why would we? VN was not like Mongolia. We had our own delta, our own coast. Why would we risk attacking a more advanced nation? Mongolians could do that because they had best calvary of all times. Japanese could do that because China could hardly cross the sea to attack them. What did VN have to do that? Nothing.


Its really not that hard when Guangxi and Yunnan are right next door,the other factor is that Chinese dynasties relied on Tusi chieftains who may or may not engage in banditry and shifted their allegiance's constantly.

Vietnamese didn't escape the wrath of the Chinese,why do you think there are so many Chinese invasions of Vietnam?

Vietnamese like any other civilization sought resources,slaves,land etc. it was out of greed not necessity.


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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> No matter what , after Viet claimed you are vassal state of Yuan , they stopped invading.
> 
> That's why I said we did not attack Viet with no reason.


No, we stopped the Mongol hordes. Declaring being a vassal of the Yuan came later as peace accord between the Yuan and Dai Viet. Paying tribute as price for peace and normalisation.

Actually the Mongols wanted to conquer Champa Kingdom because of its richness. the Champs controlled the sea trades (spicery) between SE Asia and India back then. the Mongol plan was first to subjugate Dai Viet, then used it as spring-board for the invasion of Champa. the plan failed.


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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Its really not that hard when Guangxi and Yunnan are right next door,the other factor is that Chinese dynasties relied on Tusi chieftains who may or may not engage in banditry and shifted their allegiance's constantly.
> 
> Vietnamese didn't escape the wrath of the Chinese,why do you think there are so many Chinese invasions of Vietnam?
> 
> Vietnamese like any other civilization sought resources,slaves,land etc. it was out of greed not necessity.



very boring with such arrogant troll , look at yourself Hokkien people. Min Nan people ran around in China under rule of Han Chinese. Taiwan Hokkien people was also ruled by Japanese after first Sino-Japan war, didn't escaped to where (part of you to south east asian) .

Pls focus on independence of Taiwan first.

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## xesy

Grand Historian said:


> Vietnamese didn't escape the wrath of the Chinese,why do you think there are so many Chinese invasions of Vietnam?
> 
> *Vietnamese like any other civilization sought resources,slaves,land etc. it was out of greed not necessity*.


Now you are saying nonsense. VN did not expand to the South until the 15th century. Why risk provoking a giant while there are weaker guy around to bully. We all know that VN and Cambodia goes ways back, since they were called Dai Viet and Cham. Cambodian now boast they used to be the largest empire in the area, but I doubt that when there was Dai Viet and Siam empire sandwiched them. So why would VN didn't choose to invade Cham, like many mems here said, but to raid a stronger neighbor. Sure there were bandits, but even if they were VNese, their actions cannot represent VN wills. Also they operated in Chinese land, raided Chinese villages, lived in Chinese mountains, so their kids, their grandkids were still VNese? Nah, without clear border line, no even with clear border line, you can't still tell which nationality one has if he is from a village around the border.


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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> very boring with such arrogant troll , look at yourself Hokkien people. Min Nan people ran around in China under rule of Han Chinese. Taiwan Hokkien people was also ruled by Japanese after first Sino-Japan war, didn't escaped to where (part of you to south east asian) .
> 
> Pls focus on independence of Taiwan first.


Not my fault you are too incompetent to realize that Vietnam provoked China multiple times instead of your nationalist narrative that Chinese wanted to invade Vietnam for no reason.

What do Minnan and Taiwanese Han have to do with Vietnam?

Every single time you run out of arguments you rely on flamebaiting others.



xesy said:


> Now you are saying nonsense. VN did not expand to the South until the 15th century. Why risk provoking a giant while there are weaker guy around to bully. We all know that VN and Cambodia goes ways back, since they were called Dai Viet and Cham. Cambodian now boast they used to be the largest empire in the area, but I doubt that when there was Dai Viet and Siam empire sandwiched them. So why would VN didn't choose to invade Cham, like many mems here said, but to raid a stronger neighbor. Sure there were bandits, but even if they were VNese, their actions cannot represent VN wills. Also they operated in Chinese land, raided Chinese villages, lived in Chinese mountains, so their kids, their grandkids were still VNese? Nah, without clear border line, no even with clear border line, you can't still tell which nationality one has if he is from a village around the border.


Read books instead of whining to me,why are Vietnamese so upset to find out the truth?

They didn't live in Chinese lands or had descendants that became Chinese the source of these raids were from Vietnam,while the minorities of Guangxi and Yunnan rarely allied invading Vietnamese forces and conducted their own rebellions/raids.

The Ho dynasty had no reason to raid Chinese provinces,as these events transpired before the Tran pretender reached the Ming court as well as Hongwu Emperor proclaiming that Vietnam was one the countries the Ming shouldn't invade.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Not my fault you are too incompetent to realize that Vietnam provoked China multiple times instead of your nationalist narrative that Chinese wanted to invade Vietnam for no reason.
> 
> What do Minnan and Taiwanese Han have to do with Vietnam?
> 
> Every single time you run out of arguments you rely on flamebaiting others.
> 
> 
> Read books instead of whining to me,why are Vietnamese so upset to find out the truth?
> 
> They didn't live in Chinese lands or had descendants that became Chinese the source of these raids were from Vietnam,while the minorities of Guangxi and Yunnan rarely allied invading Vietnamese forces and conducted their own rebellions/raids.
> 
> The Ho dynasty had no reason to raid Chinese provinces,as these events transpired before the Tran pretender reached the Ming court as well as Hongwu Emperor proclaiming that Vietnam was one the countries the Ming shouldn't invade.


so I guess as punishment the Ming annexed Dai Viet and integrated it into the Empire.


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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> so I guess as punishment the Ming annexed Dai Viet and integrated it into the Empire.


Originally Emperor Yongle only wanted to destroy the Ho usurpers and restore the Tran, however Zhang Fu was the one that convinced him to directly annex Vietnam.


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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Not my fault you are too incompetent to *realize that Vietnam provoked China multiple times* instead of your nationalist narrative that Chinese wanted to invade Vietnam for no reason.
> What do Minnan and Taiwanese Han have to do with Vietnam?
> Every single time you run out of arguments you rely on flamebaiting others.



stop lying, little historian bro.

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## terranMarine

Ming–Hồ War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Battle of Bach Dang River

somsak said:


> The war plan of Siam looked so simple. From the image above.




They (Siam) were tricked by Emperor Quang Trung before. Quang Trung had sent some his small naval forces to fight against Siam naval, then this forces had deliberately lost many small combats, that made the Siam army were overconfident, they moved blatantly forward without knowing that they were falling into a big trap...

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> stop lying, little historian bro.


Learn to read...


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## somsak

Battle of Bach Dang River said:


> They (Siam) were tricked by Emperor Quang Trung before. Quang Trung had sent some his small naval forces to fight against Siam naval, then this forces had deliberately lost many small combats, that made the Siam army were overconfident, they moved blatantly forward without knowing that they were falling into a big trap...



Common method in Chinese history. I read three-kingdoms and it was extensively used.


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## Battle of Bach Dang River

somsak said:


> Common method in Chinese history. I read three-kingdoms and it was extensively used.



Maybe. I also watched "three-kingdoms" film of the chinese.
But the chinese also had at least 3 times falling into the same traps of Vietnamese. That is the Battle(s) of Bach Dang River.


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## dichoi

somsak said:


> Common method in Chinese history. I read three-kingdoms and it was extensively used.



I think Three Kingdom is historic novel. The book is very interesting.


----------



## Multani

KirovAirship said:


> The sound of Vietnamese language is so bad, it always hurt my head when I am listening Vietnamese people speaking. It is even as bad as Cantonese.



much better than tagalog

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## somsak

dichoi said:


> I think Three Kingdom is historic novel. The book is very interesting.


Cartoon version is even better.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Its really not that hard when Guangxi and Yunnan are right next door,the other factor is that Chinese dynasties relied on Tusi chieftains who may or may not engage in banditry and shifted their allegiance's constantly.
> 
> Vietnamese didn't escape the wrath of the Chinese,why do you think there are so many Chinese invasions of Vietnam?
> 
> Vietnamese like any other civilization sought resources,*slaves*,land etc. it was out of greed not necessity.


I am aware that after victories over Champa and Khmer Kingdoms we made their people to slaves, but the Han?
Sure, I don´t deny Dai Viet wanted to expand territory to the North, too, but never heard that making the Han to slaves?
the thought originates from your wild imagination


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## NiceGuy

somsak said:


> Cartoon version is even better.


Do u like football bro ?? U 19 VN just defeated U-19 Thailand 1-0 yesterday. . This was a moment when we scored.

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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> I am aware that after victories over Champa and Khmer Kingdoms we made their people to slaves, but the Han?
> Sure, I don´t deny Dai Viet wanted to expand territory to the North, too, but never heard that making the Han to slaves?
> the thought originates from your wild imagination


Again all you PDF Vietnamese whine about the inconvenient truth,go read the actual records and see for yourself how greedy Vietnamese rulers were.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Again all you PDF Vietnamese whine about the inconvenient truth,go read the actual records and see for yourself how greedy Vietnamese rulers were.


again, as far as VN history books go, I neither read nor hear such a thing, making the Han to slaves. can you provide source?


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## xesy

Grand Historian said:


> Again all you PDF Vietnamese whine about the inconvenient truth,go read the actual records and see for yourself how greedy Vietnamese rulers were.


Your "actual records" are either Chinese one or anti-VN. And you always tell us to look at the book, if we disagree with you.


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## Grand Historian

xesy said:


> Your "actual records" are either Chinese one or anti-VN. And you always tell us to look at the book, if we disagree with you.


What's wrong with Chinese sources?

How laughable, are Western sources anti-Vietnam?



Viet said:


> again, as far as VN history books go, I neither read nor hear such a thing, making the Han to slaves. can you provide source?


Well the problem is you can't read Hanzi so how can you read your own history?

Vietnamese took captives during the Song-Ly War as well as other conflicts.


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> Well the problem is you can't read Hanzi so how can you read your own history?
> Vietnamese took captives during the Song-Ly War as well as other conflicts



our history books were written by our historian with Han Zi, has been transfered from Han characters to Quoc Ngu with latin characters (latin alphabets) bro.

In Song-Ly conflict, Đại Việt was being destroyed by Champa, hence it Song emperor would be seaan a good occasion to annex Đại Việt. 

Our General Ly Thuong Kiet who known this plan before then he carried out a pre-emptive attack against the Song Dynasty troops. In the ensuing 40-day battle near modern-day Nan Ning, the Đại Việt troops were victorious, capturing the generals of three Song armies.

There was self-defende attack.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> our history books were written by our historian with Han Zi, has been transfered from Han characters to Quoc Ngu with latin characters (latin alphabets) bro.


Which are notorious for flawed translations,ie Nguyen officials calling themselves Han are distorted.

The veracity of Vietnamese sources are sorely lacking.


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> Which are notorious for flawed translations,ie Nguyen officials calling themselves Han are distorted.
> 
> The veracity of Vietnamese sources are sorely lacking.



you have been misunderstood at all.

"Han - Man" is one "concept" in Han Zi. Generally, it got a meaning of Majority ethnic people and Minority ethnic people or " Kinh-Thượng " in Vietnamese. When officials of Nguyen Dynasty write in book that he is Han, it mean he is Kinh people in ethnic, not Han Chinese. Normaly Han chinese is called as Hua people by Vietnamese.

In our history books were transfered in to Latin Alphabets, It is noted clearly.

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## xesy

Grand Historian said:


> What's wrong with Chinese sources?
> 
> How laughable, are Western sources anti-Vietnam?
> 
> 
> Well the problem is you can't read Hanzi so how can you read your own history?
> 
> Vietnamese took captives during the Song-Ly War as well as other conflicts.


I don't get it why you would pick up Hanzi reading capability as a must to understand VNese history. It was not a writing that our ancestor developed, rather it was forced on them during the 1000 years Chinese ocuppation. Unlike ancient Japan which chose to adapt to Chinese culture, or ancient Korea which chose to submit, VN was forced to become part of Chinese culture. We are pround to be able to keep our mother tongue, despite all China effort to destroy our culture.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> you have been misunderstood at all.
> 
> "Han - Man" is one "concept" in Han Zi. Generally, it got a meaning of Majority ethnic people and Minority ethnic people or " Kinh-Thượng " in Vietnamese. When officials of Nguyen Dynasty write in book that he is Han, it mean he is Kinh people in ethnic, not Han Chinese. Normaly Han chinese is called as Hua people by Vietnamese.
> 
> In our history books were transfered in to Latin Alphabets, It is noted clearly.


You clearly haven't read the original texts,Qing era Chinese were called 清 while the supposed Kinh Vietnamese were labeled 漢.



dichoi said:


> In Song-Ly conflict, Đại Việt was being destroyed by Champa, hence it Song emperor would be seaan a good occasion to annex Đại Việt.
> 
> Our General Ly Thuong Kiet who known this plan before then he carried out a pre-emptive attack against the Song Dynasty troops. In the ensuing 40-day battle near modern-day Nan Ning, the Đại Việt troops were victorious, capturing the generals of three Song armies.
> 
> There was self-defende attack.


That's like saying Pearl Harbor was self defense and a preemptive attack against American aggression. 

If it was self defense than why did Yongzhou get razed and its inhabitants slain?



xesy said:


> I don't get it why you would pick up Hanzi reading capability as a must to understand VNese history. It was not a writing that our ancestor developed, rather it was forced on them during the 1000 years Chinese ocuppation. Unlike ancient Japan which chose to adapt to Chinese culture, or ancient Korea which chose to submit, VN was forced to become part of Chinese culture. We are pround to be able to keep our mother tongue, despite all China effort to destroy our culture.


Your translations are often faulty,ie the Han the Nguyen labeled are called Kinh instead.

Your mother tongue was the result of Le Loi conquering the more Sinicized Red River elite,otherwise you would still be speaking a variant of Chinese today.

Considering how Vietnamese culture is overwhelmingly derived from Sinitic influences and not indigenous ones,and the amount of historical distortions about Chinese history,there is an obsession with China that pervades the atmosphere.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> You clearly haven't read the original texts,Qing era Chinese were called 清 while the supposed Kinh Vietnamese were labeled 漢.



What happent with Chinese when Man Qing didn't ruled China ?


In generally chinese immigrant were called "北国之人". As I said before to you, when Vietnamese are stated as " 漢人" it must be undersatood that he is "not barbarian", he is Kinh in ethniccity. It doesn't mean that Vietnamese is Han Chinese.

In the past Kinh people is mostly dominated in Red River Delta. Nguyen Warloard is from Northern Kinh people too, who went to South Vietnam in acording to request of Le Emperor. Later Nguyen Gialong Empiror united Vietnam from South Vietnam, he didn't like to use the "DongKinh" (tonkin) or"kinh" word, because it remind people to Capital of Le Dynasty and Trinh warlords. It is politic threat to him and Nguen Dynasty,

In the same manner when communists Vietnam unified Vietnam 1975, Saigon is changed to Hochi Minh City. It daesn't mean all Ho Chi Ming city residents is related of Ho Chi Ming family.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> What happent with Chinese when Man Qing didn't ruled China ?
> 
> 
> In generally chinese immigrant were called "北国之人". As I said before to you, when Vietnamese are stated as " 漢人" it must be undersatood that he is "not barbarian", he is Kinh in ethniccity. It doesn't mean that Vietnamese is Han Chinese.
> 
> In the past Kinh people is mostly dominated in Red River Delta. Nguyen Warloard is from Northern Kinh people too, who went to South Vietnam in acording to request of Le Emperor. Later Nguyen Gialong Empiror united Vietnam from South Vietnam, he didn't like to use the "DongKinh" (tonkin) or"kinh" word, because it remind people to Capital of Le Dynasty and Trinh warlords. It is politic threat to him and Nguen Dynasty,
> 
> In the same manner when communists Vietnam unified Vietnam 1975, Saigon is changed to Hochi Minh City. It daesn't mean all Ho Chi Ming city residents is related of Ho Chi Ming family.


Man Qing only existed in the mind of the radical Chinese nationalists of the Republican period,the Qing called themselves Great Qing,Zhongguo etc.

Do realize 漢 was synonymous for Chinese culture ergo the Nguyen were trying to claim Chinese heritage,which is evident by their worship of Chinese sage kings.
The Nguyễn Dynasty’s Miếu Lịch Đại Đế Vương | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog

Clearly the Nguyen era Vietnamese were Sinophiles and thought themselves to be the successor of the Ming(similar to the Joseon dynasty of Korea).

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> Man Qing only existed in the mind of the radical Chinese nationalists of the Republican period,the Qing called themselves Great Qing,Zhongguo etc.
> 
> Do realize 漢 was synonymous for Chinese culture ergo the Nguyen were trying to claim Chinese heritage,which is evident by their worship of Chinese sage kings.
> The Nguyễn Dynasty’s Miếu Lịch Đại Đế Vương | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
> 
> Clearly the Nguyen era Vietnamese were Sinophiles and thought themselves to be the successor of the Ming(similar to the Joseon dynasty of Korea).



You lie, bro and who is Le Minh Khai, he is troller on internet and critized every things related to Vietnam now.

There is big problem when in the past, Vietnam was forced to use Han Zi chẩracters to writing system by Chinese invader. and Vietnam was influenced with Chinese culture: Confucius.

What is most important thing here in history of Vietnam ? Pls to read what our ancestors said in the past:

南 國 山 河 南 帝 居
截 然 定 分 在 天 書
如 何 逆 虜 來 侵 犯
汝 等 行 看 取 敗 虛

It is core item of Vietnam nationality.

Don't forget that in time of Nguyen Dynasty, our country is called "大南国" in opposite to " 中国 " or " 北国 ".

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> You lie, bro and who is Le Minh Khai, he is troller on internet and critized every things related to Vietnam now.
> 
> There is big problem when in the past, Vietnam was forced to use Han Zi chẩracters to writing system by Chinese invader. and Vietnam was influenced with Chinese culture: Confucius.
> 
> What is most important thing here in history of Vietnam ? Pls to read what our ancestors said in the past:
> 
> 南 國 山 河 南 帝 居
> 截 然 定 分 在 天 書
> 如 何 逆 虜 來 侵 犯
> 汝 等 行 看 取 敗 虛
> 
> It is core item of Vietnam nationality.
> 
> Don't forget that in time of Nguyen Dynasty, our country is called "大南国" in opposite to " 中国 " or " 北国 ".


He's a scholar named Liam C. Kelly,he's more credible than you or I yet you refuse to refute his points.

He criticizes the rampant nationalism in Vietnamese historiography .

Vietnam became independent then why don't they reject all the Chinese influences?

If you studied classical Chinese the meaning is different.
The Problems with the Bình Ngô đại cáo as a Declaration of Independence | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog

It doesn't matter what the Nguyen called their country their court dress was modeled after Chinese ones,documents were written in Classical Chinese,attempted to Sinicize minorities,worshiped Chinese sage kings/cultural herores and labeled themselves as Han.

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## Viet

dichoi said:


> You lie, bro and who is Le Minh Khai, he is troller on internet and critized every things related to Vietnam now.
> 
> There is big problem when in the past, Vietnam was forced to use Han Zi chẩracters to writing system by Chinese invader. and Vietnam was influenced with Chinese culture: Confucius.
> 
> What is most important thing here in history of Vietnam ? Pls to read what our ancestors said in the past:
> 
> 南 國 山 河 南 帝 居
> 截 然 定 分 在 天 書
> 如 何 逆 虜 來 侵 犯
> 汝 等 行 看 取 敗 虛
> 
> It is core item of Vietnam nationality.
> 
> Don't forget that in time of Nguyen Dynasty, our country is called "大南国" in opposite to " 中国 " or " 北国 ".


No, Le Minh Khai seems to be a good researcher of history of Vietnam and its interactions with China. I have read some of his blogs. Highly professional written, quotes provided, no trolling seen.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Not my fault you are too incompetent to realize that Vietnam provoked China multiple times instead of your nationalist narrative that Chinese wanted to invade Vietnam for no reason.
> 
> What do Minnan and Taiwanese Han have to do with Vietnam?
> 
> Every single time you run out of arguments you rely on flamebaiting others.
> 
> 
> Read books instead of whining to me,why are Vietnamese so upset to find out the truth?
> 
> They didn't live in Chinese lands or had descendants that became Chinese the source of these raids were from Vietnam,while the minorities of Guangxi and Yunnan rarely allied invading Vietnamese forces and conducted their own rebellions/raids.
> 
> The *Ho dynasty* had no reason to raid Chinese provinces,as these events transpired before the Tran pretender reached the Ming court as well as Hongwu Emperor proclaiming that Vietnam was one the countries the Ming shouldn't invade.


from the today perspective, one must admit that the Ho committed of major mistake by provoking the Ming. Having angered the Ming emperor to an unacceptable level, leaving him no other choice than to issue an order of the invasion of Vietnam. If Yongle hadn´t decided so, he would have lost face.

Worse, the Ho overestimated the strength of the own army and the defence capability in case of chinese invasion. the Vietnamese defence relied on strongholds without sufficient securing fresh troop replenishment and arms. When the Ming army (with overwhelming number and better firearms) conquered these fortifications and cut off the supplies, Vietnam was lost.

That is a lesson for future Vietnamese generations.


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## pher

Viet said:


> from the today perspective, one must admit that the Ho committed of major mistake by provoking the Ming. Having angered the Ming emperor to an unacceptable level, leaving him no other choice than to issue an order of the invasion of Vietnam. If Yongle hadn´t decided so, he would have lost face.
> 
> Worse, the Ho overestimated the strength of the own army and the defence capability in case of chinese invasion. the Vietnamese defence relied on strongholds without sufficient securing fresh troop replenishment and arms. When the Ming army (with overwhelming number and better firearms) conquered these fortifications and cut off the supplies, Vietnam was lost.
> 
> That is a lesson for future Vietnamese generations.


If you can learn the lesson, you are not stupid viets anymore

But you don't, so you repeat the same mistake again and again forever. It is in your DNA. That is why we pound you on a regular basis.


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## JonAsad

My question-
Where are the vietnamis who faught amrika?-
From where this submissive lot came from?-


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> He's a scholar named Liam C. Kelly,he's more credible than you or I yet you refuse to refute his points.
> 
> He criticizes the rampant nationalism in Vietnamese historiography .
> 
> Vietnam became independent then why don't they reject all the Chinese influences?
> 
> If you studied classical Chinese the meaning is different.
> The Problems with the Bình Ngô đại cáo as a Declaration of Independence | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
> 
> It doesn't matter what the Nguyen called their country their court dress was modeled after Chinese ones,documents were written in Classical Chinese,attempted to Sinicize minorities,worshiped Chinese sage kings/cultural herores and labeled themselves as Han.



your comment is funny.

why Holy Roma Empire is collapsed, many country is became independent state but culture heritage of Roma is not fully rejected ? 

and now countries in mainland of Europa are shared many common culture characters, bloodline and identities.

Turn to history blog of Le Minh Khue. He is very funny too, when he commented about word 吳 " Ngô " in 平吳大誥 "Binh Ngo Dai Cao". 

吳 or Đông Ngô 东吳 or 東吳 国 in 三国 era, when 漢 Dynasty of China ís going to collapsed. The word 吳 " Ngô " is referred to China from - 220 BCE.



JonAsad said:


> My question-
> Where are the vietnamis who faught amrika?-
> From where this submissive lot came from?-



Communists Vietnam's or VC fought against American. Socialist countries helped Vietnam. The biggest submission is from Soviet Union, second is China.

China is reduced to stop support from 1968 when china is tried to normalisation diplomacy with USA.

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## EastSea

@dichoi 

Pls to ignore this Chinese boy, he will cry to Mod to ban you soon.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> from the today perspective, one must admit that the Ho committed of major mistake by provoking the Ming. Having angered the Ming emperor to an unacceptable level, leaving him no other choice than to issue an order of the invasion of Vietnam. If Yongle hadn´t decided so, he would have lost face.
> 
> Worse, the Ho overestimated the strength of the own army and the defence capability in case of chinese invasion. the Vietnamese defence relied on strongholds without sufficient securing fresh troop replenishment and arms. When the Ming army (with overwhelming number and better firearms) conquered these fortifications and cut off the supplies, Vietnam was lost.
> 
> That is a lesson for future Vietnamese generations.



You guys don't need to learn the mistakes at all.

What I heard from you guys is 1979, then 1979, again 1979.

What's matter with 1979? The war happened on your soil, and your cities and villages were burning down. Who has suffered the biggest loss?


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## Rechoice

dichoi said:


> your comment is funny.
> why Holy Roma Empire is collapsed, many country is became independent state but culture heritage of Roma is not fully rejected ?
> and now countries in mainland of Europa are shared many common culture characters, bloodline and identities.
> Turn to history blog of Le Minh Khue. He is very funny too, when he commented about word 吳 " Ngô " in 平吳大誥 "Binh Ngo Dai Cao".
> 吳 or Đông Ngô 东吳 or 東吳 国 in 三国 era, when 漢 Dynasty of China ís going to collapsed. The word 吳 " Ngô " is referred to China from - 220 BCE.




_Người Bắc thì kêu là_ Ngô_, nghĩa là nước Ngô, có kẻ lại cắt nghĩa rằng vì bởi nó hay xưng mình là Ngô nghĩa là tôi. Từ này không còn còn phổ biến nữa._

Trans late in to English for other members:

Northern Vietnamese has been called Chinese as " Ngo " mean people of Ngo country. Someone else explained that becaouese Chinese (from Canton) said "ngo", it does mean " I am ". This word is not popular now.

_http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Người_Hoa_(Việt_Nam)_

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You guys don't need to learn the mistakes at all.
> 
> What I heard from you guys is 1979, then 1979, again 1979.
> 
> What's matter with 1979? The war happened on your soil, and your cities and villages were burning down. Who has suffered the biggest loss?


Both suffered the loss coz those cities were built by China's money, we dont need to pay back the debt to u after that , both had high casualties in war .

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## dichoi

Viet said:


> No, Le Minh Khai seems to be a good researcher of history of Vietnam and its interactions with China. I have read some of his blogs. Highly professional written, quotes provided, no trolling seen.



do you know who is Le Minh Khai, he is not Vietnamese, he is white man.

_Mấy năm qua, “tiếng tăm” của L.C Ken-li nổi lên không phải vì ông có đóng góp trong ngành Việt Nam học, mà chủ yếu là do một số công trình và bài viết có quan điểm gây tranh cãi. Biết tiếng Việt và tiếng Trung, say mê nghiên cứu Việt Nam, thậm chí lấy tên Việt là Lê Minh Khải,… L.C Ken-li được người đọc tin sẽ có cái nhìn khách quan, khoa học. Song qua các công trình, bài viết ông công bố, có thể thấy cùng với nhiều diễn giải lòng vòng về việc cần thay đổi hệ hình trong nghiên cứu lịch sử Việt Nam, L.C Ken-li ngày càng thể hiện rõ tham vọng muốn soi chiếu, xem xét lịch sử Việt Nam để đạt tới mục đích duy nhất là… đưa ra kết luận ngược với hầu hết các kết luận về lịch sử Việt Nam từng công bố!
_
*Nhà nghiên cứu lịch sử hay kẻ "đốt đền"*
_leminhkhaiviet | About Vietnamese Cultural History and Scholarship_

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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> Both suffered the loss coz those cities were built by China's money, we dont need to pay back the debt to u after that , both had high casualties in war .



Finally you have acknowledged China's contribution during the Vietnam war, yet you people were so ungrateful by turning the back on China.

Even your cities were built by China's money, and what else it can be?


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Finally you have acknowledged China's contribution during the Vietnam war, yet you people were so ungrateful by turning the back on China.
> 
> Even your cities were built by China's money, and what else it can be?



blood debt, I think so.


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## xesy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Finally you have acknowledged China's contribution during the Vietnam war, yet you people were so ungrateful by turning the back on China.
> 
> Even your cities were built by China's money, and what else it can be?


Factories, maybe. But there are a bunch of infrastructures built by the French, and China demolished them too. The bridge in my hometown was built by the French from the 1800s, made of steel frame and concrete. And China did try to demolished it with explosive. The concrete fell of, but the steel frame was hardly damaged and fell into the river. Later we pulled it up and used it to rebuilt the bridge. Still in good use now. There were other govt buildings and houses built by French, but they were gone now.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You guys don't need to learn the mistakes at all.
> 
> What I heard from you guys is 1979, then 1979, again 1979.
> 
> What's matter with 1979? The war happened on your soil, and your cities and villages were burning down. Who has suffered the biggest loss?


The problem is you guys call this war "Counter offensive war", while we call it "The border war 1979". China loved to play victim.



NiceGuy said:


> Both suffered the loss coz those cities were built by China's money, we dont need to pay back the debt to u after that , both had high casualties in war .


Before the war, VN did borrow Soviet money and rice to pay back China supply during the war. We even stamped on our rice bag "Rice borrowed from Soviet to pay China". Even though we all know that a large number of Soviet supply when transported through China by train was stripped off Soviet seals and stamped Chinese seals on.

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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> @dichoi
> 
> Pls to ignore this Chinese boy, he will cry to Mod to ban you soon.


Considering how your academic incompetence is your trademark as well as trolling all you do waste forum space.



dichoi said:


> your comment is funny.
> 
> why Holy Roma Empire is collapsed, many country is became independent state but culture heritage of Roma is not fully rejected ?
> 
> and now countries in mainland of Europa are shared many common culture characters, bloodline and identities.
> 
> Turn to history blog of Le Minh Khue. He is very funny too, when he commented about word 吳 " Ngô " in 平吳大誥 "Binh Ngo Dai Cao".
> 
> 吳 or Đông Ngô 东吳 or 東吳 国 in 三国 era, when 漢 Dynasty of China ís going to collapsed. The word 吳 " Ngô " is referred to China from - 220 BCE.


This just shows you failed to read the link,"Other than its appearned in the line which proceeds this document, I have not found Ngô in any other premodern Vietnamese text as a term which refers to the Chinese. " prove this.

Regardless his Classical Chinese is leaps and bounds ahead of both us,I'm able to translate some texts what are you capable of?



dichoi said:


> do you know who is Le Minh Khai, he is not Vietnamese, he is white man.
> 
> _Mấy năm qua, “tiếng tăm” của L.C Ken-li nổi lên không phải vì ông có đóng góp trong ngành Việt Nam học, mà chủ yếu là do một số công trình và bài viết có quan điểm gây tranh cãi. Biết tiếng Việt và tiếng Trung, say mê nghiên cứu Việt Nam, thậm chí lấy tên Việt là Lê Minh Khải,… L.C Ken-li được người đọc tin sẽ có cái nhìn khách quan, khoa học. Song qua các công trình, bài viết ông công bố, có thể thấy cùng với nhiều diễn giải lòng vòng về việc cần thay đổi hệ hình trong nghiên cứu lịch sử Việt Nam, L.C Ken-li ngày càng thể hiện rõ tham vọng muốn soi chiếu, xem xét lịch sử Việt Nam để đạt tới mục đích duy nhất là… đưa ra kết luận ngược với hầu hết các kết luận về lịch sử Việt Nam từng công bố!
> _
> *Nhà nghiên cứu lịch sử hay kẻ "đốt đền"*
> _leminhkhaiviet | About Vietnamese Cultural History and Scholarship_


So White people can't research and explain Vietnamese history?

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> This just shows you failed to read the link,"Other than its appearned in the line which proceeds this document, I have not found Ngô in any other premodern Vietnamese text as a term which refers to the Chinese. " prove this.
> Regardless his Classical Chinese is leaps and bounds ahead of both us,I'm able to translate some texts what are you capable of?



do you read full the text or not ?

and what is this ?

" 狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；..."

Who is this " 狂明 " ? It is " mad Ming " !* Mad Ming* is not Chinese ?

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> do you read full the text or not ?
> 
> and what is this ?
> 
> " 狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；..."
> 
> Who is this " 狂明 " ? It is " mad Ming " !* Mad Ming* is not Chinese ?


Address Le Minh Khai's points first.

Vietnamese are so blinded by anti Chinese nationalism they can't even comprehend their own texts.

Why don't you address the extreme Sinicization of the Nguyen dynasty?


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Address Le Minh Khai's points first.
> Vietnamese are so *blinded by anti Chinese nationalism* they can't even comprehend their own texts.


hmmm...judging his posts, Le Minh Khai holds pretty much a neutral view on Vietnam. I don´t see him critizing of what you say "blinded by anti-Chinese nationalism". Nationalism is not bad per se. Without nationalism there is no nation. Neither China nor Vietnam. Yes, nationalism is precondition for nation building. I don´t see we are blind. Surely, we are anti Chinese, but just because you don´t want our kind of thinking, our way of life and try to stop it by force. Vietnam wants respect and equality, but you have other different thing in mind.

or do I miss anything?


Grand Historian said:


> Why don't you address the *extreme Sinicization* of the Nguyen dynasty?


I don´t know, maybe you can tell us. I guess, firstly, the Nguyen wanted to restore the old law and order that went lost during the last civil war (Trinh vs. Nguyen vs. Tay Son). secondly, the emperor had reason to copy the greatness of the Qing as Vietnam controlled Laos and Cambodia. Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia all combined means reign supreme over the largest ever territorial expansion in the vietnamese history.

just google a bit and find these historial pics... comparing Chinese and Vietnamese mandarins. they were much different in terms of dress. extreme sinicization?

well, I read Vietnam tried to impose Vietnam´s law and order, sinicization and other things on barbarians in Laos and Cambodia, and punished hard those who failed to comply.

Qing officials






Nguyen officials





by the way, thank you for sharing the link of this author Le Minh Khai. Unbelieveable that he is a white man. He seems to be fluent in vietnamese as well as chinese language. I am not historian, thus I cannot judge whether what he says is right or wrong. other can do.


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> Address Le Minh Khai's points first.
> 
> Vietnamese are so blinded by anti Chinese nationalism they can't even comprehend their own texts.
> 
> Why don't you address the extreme Sinicization of the Nguyen dynasty?



You do not read a full text of 平吳大誥 Bình Ngô Đại Cáo is written in Hanzi, then L. C. Kelly ( Le Minh Khai ) does read it but, but he has been neglected what is important statement of this text.

仁 義之 舉, 要 在 安 民,
弔伐 之 師 莫 先 去 暴 。
惟 我 大 越 之 國,
實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
雖 強弱 時 有 不 同
而 豪 傑 世未 常 乏 。
......
狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；
惡 黨 懷 奸, 竟 以 賣我 國 。... Only one time, Viet Jian was critized as 惡 黨. (ngụy đảng).

The rest is stated:

陳 智 山 壽 聞風 而; 褫 魄，
李 安 方 政 假 息 以 偷生 。
乘 勝 長 驅, 西 京既 為 我 有；
選 兵 進 取， 東 都 盡 復 舊 疆 。
寧橋 之 血 成 川, 流 腥 萬里;
窣 洞 之 屍 積 野 ，遺 臭 千 年 。
陳 洽 賊 之腹 心, 既 梟 其 首;
李亮 賊 之 奸 蠹, 又 暴 厥屍 。
王 通 理 亂 而 焚 者益 焚,
馬 瑛 救 鬥 而 怒者 益 怒 。
彼 智 窮 而 力盡, 束 手 待 亡;
我 謀伐 而 心 攻, 不 戰 自 屈。
謂 彼 必 易 心 而 改 慮，
豈 意 復 作 孽 以 速 辜。
執 一 己 之 見 以 嫁 禍於 他 人,
貪 一 時 之 功以 貽 笑 於 天 下 。
遂 靈宣 德 之 狡 童, 黷 兵 無厭;
仍 命 晟 昇 之 懦 將， 以 油 救 焚 。
丁 未 九月 柳 昇 遂 引 兵 猶 邱 溫而 進,
本 年 十 月 木 晟又 分 途 自 雲 南 而 來 。
予 前 既 選 兵 塞 險 以 摧其 鋒,
予 後 再 調 兵 截路 以 斷 其 食 。
本 月 十八 日 柳 昇 為 我 軍 所 攻， 計 墜 於 支 稜 之 野 ；
本 月 二 十 日 柳 昇 又 為我 軍 所 敗, 身 死 於 馬鞍 之 山 。
二 十 五 日 保定 伯 梁 銘 陣 陷 而 喪 軀，
二 十 八 日 尚 書 李 慶計 窮 而 刎 首 。
....

You can calculate how many Ming Dynasty's general (Chinese) was loser in this Sino - Vietnam war ?

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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> hmmm...judging his posts, Le Minh Khai holds pretty much a neutral view on Vietnam. I don´t see him critizing of what you say "blinded by anti-Chinese nationalism". Nationalism is not bad per se. Without nationalism there is no nation. Neither China nor Vietnam. Yes, nationalism is precondition for nation building. I don´t see we are blind. Surely, we are anti Chinese, but just because you don´t want our kind of thinking, our way of life and try to stop it by force. Vietnam wants respect and equality, but you have other different thing in mind.
> 
> or do I miss anything?
> 
> I don´t know, maybe you can tell us. I guess, firstly, the Nguyen wanted to restore the old law and order that went lost during the last civil war (Trinh vs. Nguyen vs. Tay Son). secondly, the emperor had reason to copy the greatness of the Qing as Vietnam controlled Laos and Cambodia. Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia all combined means reign supreme over the largest ever territorial expansion in the vietnamese history.
> 
> just google a bit and find these historial pics... comparing Chinese and Vietnamese mandarins. they were much different in terms of dress. extreme sinicization?
> 
> well, I read Vietnam tried to impose Vietnam´s law and order, sinicization and other things on barbarians in Laos and Cambodia, and punished hard those who failed to comply.
> 
> Qing officials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nguyen officials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by the way, thank you for sharing the link of this author Le Minh Khai. Unbelieveable that he is a white man. He seems to be fluent in vietnamese as well as chinese language. I am not historian, thus I cannot judge whether what he says is right or wrong. other can do.



Those dresses from Vietnamese mandarins are Ming Dynasty's style.

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## Rechoice

KirovAirship said:


> Those dresses from Vietnamese mandarins are Ming Dynasty's style.



Ming Dynasty style is Yuan style of Mongolian. Qing style is Manchurian style.



dichoi said:


> You do not read a full text of 平吳大誥 Bình Ngô Đại Cáo is written in Hanzi, then L. C. Kelly ( Le Minh Khai ) does read it but, but he has been neglected what is important statement of this text.
> 
> 仁 義之 舉, 要 在 安 民,
> 弔伐 之 師 莫 先 去 暴 。
> 惟 我 大 越 之 國,
> 實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
> 山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
> 南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
> 自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
> 與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
> 雖 強弱 時 有 不 同
> 而 豪 傑 世未 常 乏 。
> ......
> 狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；
> 惡 黨 懷 奸, 竟 以 賣我 國 。... Only one time, Viet Jian was critized as 惡 黨. (ngụy đảng).
> 
> The rest is stated:
> 
> 陳 智 山 壽 聞風 而; 褫 魄，
> 李 安 方 政 假 息 以 偷生 。
> 乘 勝 長 驅, 西 京既 為 我 有；
> 選 兵 進 取， 東 都 盡 復 舊 疆 。
> 寧橋 之 血 成 川, 流 腥 萬里;
> 窣 洞 之 屍 積 野 ，遺 臭 千 年 。
> 陳 洽 賊 之腹 心, 既 梟 其 首;
> 李亮 賊 之 奸 蠹, 又 暴 厥屍 。
> 王 通 理 亂 而 焚 者益 焚,
> 馬 瑛 救 鬥 而 怒者 益 怒 。
> 彼 智 窮 而 力盡, 束 手 待 亡;
> 我 謀伐 而 心 攻, 不 戰 自 屈。
> 謂 彼 必 易 心 而 改 慮，
> 豈 意 復 作 孽 以 速 辜。
> 執 一 己 之 見 以 嫁 禍於 他 人,
> 貪 一 時 之 功以 貽 笑 於 天 下 。
> 遂 靈宣 德 之 狡 童, 黷 兵 無厭;
> 仍 命 晟 昇 之 懦 將， 以 油 救 焚 。
> 丁 未 九月 柳 昇 遂 引 兵 猶 邱 溫而 進,
> 本 年 十 月 木 晟又 分 途 自 雲 南 而 來 。
> 予 前 既 選 兵 塞 險 以 摧其 鋒,
> 予 後 再 調 兵 截路 以 斷 其 食 。
> 本 月 十八 日 柳 昇 為 我 軍 所 攻， 計 墜 於 支 稜 之 野 ；
> 本 月 二 十 日 柳 昇 又 為我 軍 所 敗, 身 死 於 馬鞍 之 山 。
> 二 十 五 日 保定 伯 梁 銘 陣 陷 而 喪 軀，
> 二 十 八 日 尚 書 李 慶計 窮 而 刎 首 。
> ....
> 
> You can calculate how many Ming Dynasty's general (Chinese) was loser in this Sino - Vietnam war ?



do you study Mandarin in University ?

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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Those dresses from Vietnamese mandarins are Ming Dynasty's style.


oh...you are right.







dichoi said:


> You do not read a full text of 平吳大誥 Bình Ngô Đại Cáo is written in Hanzi, then L. C. Kelly ( Le Minh Khai ) does read it but, but he has been neglected what is important statement of this text.
> 
> 仁 義之 舉, 要 在 安 民,
> 弔伐 之 師 莫 先 去 暴 。
> 惟 我 大 越 之 國,
> 實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
> 山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
> 南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
> 自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
> 與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
> 雖 強弱 時 有 不 同
> 而 豪 傑 世未 常 乏 。
> ......
> 狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；
> 惡 黨 懷 奸, 竟 以 賣我 國 。... Only one time, Viet Jian was critized as 惡 黨. (ngụy đảng).
> 
> The rest is stated:
> 
> 陳 智 山 壽 聞風 而; 褫 魄，
> 李 安 方 政 假 息 以 偷生 。
> 乘 勝 長 驅, 西 京既 為 我 有；
> 選 兵 進 取， 東 都 盡 復 舊 疆 。
> 寧橋 之 血 成 川, 流 腥 萬里;
> 窣 洞 之 屍 積 野 ，遺 臭 千 年 。
> 陳 洽 賊 之腹 心, 既 梟 其 首;
> 李亮 賊 之 奸 蠹, 又 暴 厥屍 。
> 王 通 理 亂 而 焚 者益 焚,
> 馬 瑛 救 鬥 而 怒者 益 怒 。
> 彼 智 窮 而 力盡, 束 手 待 亡;
> 我 謀伐 而 心 攻, 不 戰 自 屈。
> 謂 彼 必 易 心 而 改 慮，
> 豈 意 復 作 孽 以 速 辜。
> 執 一 己 之 見 以 嫁 禍於 他 人,
> 貪 一 時 之 功以 貽 笑 於 天 下 。
> 遂 靈宣 德 之 狡 童, 黷 兵 無厭;
> 仍 命 晟 昇 之 懦 將， 以 油 救 焚 。
> 丁 未 九月 柳 昇 遂 引 兵 猶 邱 溫而 進,
> 本 年 十 月 木 晟又 分 途 自 雲 南 而 來 。
> 予 前 既 選 兵 塞 險 以 摧其 鋒,
> 予 後 再 調 兵 截路 以 斷 其 食 。
> 本 月 十八 日 柳 昇 為 我 軍 所 攻， 計 墜 於 支 稜 之 野 ；
> 本 月 二 十 日 柳 昇 又 為我 軍 所 敗, 身 死 於 馬鞍 之 山 。
> 二 十 五 日 保定 伯 梁 銘 陣 陷 而 喪 軀，
> 二 十 八 日 尚 書 李 慶計 窮 而 刎 首 。
> ....
> 
> You can calculate how many Ming Dynasty's general (Chinese) was loser in this Sino - Vietnam war ?


cool...you can read, write and speak chinese?


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## dichoi

Rechoice said:


> do you study Mandarin in University ?





Viet said:


> cool...you can read, write and speak chinese?



I can copy only. tying is with Ha-Nom software. I speak a bit, not so much, I have been joined for the language training course for the tourist guide. But I don't do it now.


----------



## Viet

dichoi said:


> I speak a bit, not so much, I have been joined for the language training course for the tourist guide. But I don't do it now.


learning to speak chinese is enough a challenge, but to write/memorize the characters is a real nightmare. I am trying to learn the first 500 words 
being a tourist guide for chinese is not a piece of cake as the business suffers a lot due to the recent tension, isn´t it?


----------



## dichoi

Viet said:


> learning to speak chinese is enough a challenge, but to write/memorize the characters is a real nightmare. I am trying to learn the first 500 words
> being a tourist guide for chinese is not a piece of cake as the business suffers a lot due to the recent tension, isn´t it?



yes, the tour is cancelled a lot.


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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> You do not read a full text of 平吳大誥 Bình Ngô Đại Cáo is written in Hanzi, then L. C. Kelly ( Le Minh Khai ) does read it but, but he has been neglected what is important statement of this text.
> 
> 仁 義之 舉, 要 在 安 民,
> 弔伐 之 師 莫 先 去 暴 。
> 惟 我 大 越 之 國,
> 實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
> 山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
> 南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
> 自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
> 與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
> 雖 強弱 時 有 不 同
> 而 豪 傑 世未 常 乏 。
> ......
> 狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；
> 惡 黨 懷 奸, 竟 以 賣我 國 。... Only one time, Viet Jian was critized as 惡 黨. (ngụy đảng).
> 
> The rest is stated:
> 
> 陳 智 山 壽 聞風 而; 褫 魄，
> 李 安 方 政 假 息 以 偷生 。
> 乘 勝 長 驅, 西 京既 為 我 有；
> 選 兵 進 取， 東 都 盡 復 舊 疆 。
> 寧橋 之 血 成 川, 流 腥 萬里;
> 窣 洞 之 屍 積 野 ，遺 臭 千 年 。
> 陳 洽 賊 之腹 心, 既 梟 其 首;
> 李亮 賊 之 奸 蠹, 又 暴 厥屍 。
> 王 通 理 亂 而 焚 者益 焚,
> 馬 瑛 救 鬥 而 怒者 益 怒 。
> 彼 智 窮 而 力盡, 束 手 待 亡;
> 我 謀伐 而 心 攻, 不 戰 自 屈。
> 謂 彼 必 易 心 而 改 慮，
> 豈 意 復 作 孽 以 速 辜。
> 執 一 己 之 見 以 嫁 禍於 他 人,
> 貪 一 時 之 功以 貽 笑 於 天 下 。
> 遂 靈宣 德 之 狡 童, 黷 兵 無厭;
> 仍 命 晟 昇 之 懦 將， 以 油 救 焚 。
> 丁 未 九月 柳 昇 遂 引 兵 猶 邱 溫而 進,
> 本 年 十 月 木 晟又 分 途 自 雲 南 而 來 。
> 予 前 既 選 兵 塞 險 以 摧其 鋒,
> 予 後 再 調 兵 截路 以 斷 其 食 。
> 本 月 十八 日 柳 昇 為 我 軍 所 攻， 計 墜 於 支 稜 之 野 ；
> 本 月 二 十 日 柳 昇 又 為我 軍 所 敗, 身 死 於 馬鞍 之 山 。
> 二 十 五 日 保定 伯 梁 銘 陣 陷 而 喪 軀，
> 二 十 八 日 尚 書 李 慶計 窮 而 刎 首 。
> ....
> 
> You can calculate how many Ming Dynasty's general (Chinese) was loser in this Sino - Vietnam war ?


Why would I bother reading 平吳大誥,I'm busying translating 經略復國要編 for future use.

Why don't you address Le Minh Khai's points instead of ignoring them?



Rechoice said:


> Ming Dynasty style is Yuan style of Mongolian. Qing style is Manchurian style.


The habitual liar strikes again,the mandarin square originated in Ming, while the wushamao was an evolution of the Han/Xianbei scarf ie the putou,finally gongfu was an evolution of the pao which originated in during the Han dynasty later having some Xianbei influences.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> Why would I bother reading 平吳大誥,I'm busying translating 經略復國要編 for future use.
> Why don't you address Le Minh Khai's points instead of ignoring them?



I discussed here with you, not with Lam C. Kelly, 



Grand Historian said:


> ,Qing era Chinese were called 清 *while the supposed Kinh Vietnamese were labeled 漢*.



I state again here that: Vietnamese were labeled as *漢 *when Han Zi was official writing system in Vietnam*,* it got a meaning Majority ethnic people,* not related to 漢 Chinese in China.*



Grand Historian said:


> *Your mother tongue was the result of Le Loi conquering the more Sinicized Red River elite, otherwise you would still be speaking a variant of Chinese today*.



It is very funny, 

Le Loi, with 平吳大誥 he taken back our land and Tonkin/Hanoi from Ming invaders, not from "Sinicized Red River elite". 

It is my conclusion.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> I discussed here with you, not with Lam C. Kelly,


You criticized him for being White now you fail to reply how shameless are you?



dichoi said:


> I state again here that: Vietnamese were labeled as *漢 *when Han Zi was official writing system in Vietnam*,* it got a meaning Majority ethnic people,* not related to 漢 Chinese in China.*


漢 originated from China thus 漢 meant the Kinh were culturally Chinese.



dichoi said:


> It is very funny,
> 
> Le Loi, with 平吳大誥 he taken back our land and Tonkin/Hanoi from Ming invaders, not from "Sinicized Red River elite".
> 
> It is my conclusion.


Le Loi was of Trai stock,read works by Lieberman,Taylor and Li I'm not going to bother educating you.

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## Rechoice

*@dichoi*

you can speak Mandarin and typing Han Zi, like Pundi Cantonese and Hokklo people. You are Southern Han Chinese, not Vietnamese Kinh people. ...........

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## dichoi

Rechoice said:


> *@dichoi*
> 
> you can speak Mandarin and typing Han Zi, like Pundi Cantonese and Hokklo people. You are Southern Han Chinese, not Vietnamese Kinh people. ...........



Yes,

My family tree (gia phả) has been stated:
*鼻 祖 耳 孫 之 自 我 族 漢 前 先 祖 原 貫 于 本 社...*

dịch theo nghĩa Hán Việt là:

" Cố tổ thính tôn chi tự ngã tộc *Hán tiền tiên tổ* nguyên quán vu bản xã ..." được các cụ dich ra quốc ngữ là: " Cụ cố tổ nói cho con cháu nghe cụ tổ nhà ta vốn *người miền xuôi* đến ở xã này...". Chữ Hán *漢 *được các cụ dịch là "*người miền xuôi*" không phải là "*người miền ngược*" có nghĩa không phải là "*người thiểu số*". ở gần quê mình có bản làng của người Mường.

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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> Nguyen officials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .




Ming's dressing confirmed.

Koreans also wear Ming style clothes.

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> *@dichoi*
> 
> you can speak Mandarin and typing Han Zi, like Pundi Cantonese and Hokklo people. You are Southern Han Chinese, not Vietnamese Kinh people. ...........


Have anything new to contribute?

Really what happened to Ming dynasty Hanfu was stolen from Mongols,why don't you back up your absurd claims?

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## terranMarine

Grand Historian said:


> Have anything new to contribute?
> 
> Really what happened to Ming dynasty Hanfu was stolen from Mongols,why don't you back up your absurd claims?


 it's hopeless with these china expert macacas. Always stealing our history, even our Ming dynasty hanfu suddenly are traditional Vietnamese style.

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## Grand Historian

terranMarine said:


> it's hopeless with these china expert macacas. Always stealing our history, even our Ming dynasty hanfu suddenly are traditional Vietnamese style.


There are even claims that Ming only recovered Chinese culture because they invaded Vietnam

Whenever they are stuck in a rut they always say Southern Han Chinese are Baiyue,Man Qing,greedy Chinese invader,Chinese nazis etc.


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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Have anything new to contribute?
> 
> Really what happened to Ming dynasty Hanfu was stolen from Mongols,why don't you back up your absurd claims?



This is Yuan Dynasty dressing, 





Dragon Robe from the Yuan dynasty.

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## Rechoice

Mongolian type.






Here is Chinese costume, basically copied ideas from Mongolian.

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## Rechoice

terranMarine said:


> it's hopeless with these china expert macacas. Always stealing our history, even our Ming dynasty hanfu suddenly are traditional Vietnamese style.



Here is Vietnam traditional ao dai, do not looks like hanfu.

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## Edison Chen

Rechoice said:


> Here is Vietnam traditional ao dai, do not looks like hanfu.



Haha. Her costume is actually the most fashionable in ancient times, looks even similar to today's fashion. I mean the woman on the chair. I guess she is a dope fiend? Her flip flops also catches up with the newest trend.  Wait, why the girl on the left naked?


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## xesy

Strange, I thought Chinese traditional culture always focus on educating "yi"/man di /barbarian and make them become part of China. China did that by spreading their culture, their model around, on modern term it's "soft power". And now some Chinese claim that other stole their culture. Oh, such hypocrite.

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## Rechoice

Edison Chen said:


> Haha. Her costume is actually the most fashionable in ancient times, looks even similar to today's fashion. I mean the woman on the chair. I guess she is a dope fiend? Her flip flops also catches up with the newest trend.  Wait, why the girl on the left naked?



In Vietnam, tropical season is so hot, bro, it is nothing related to love. In modern day western fashion is copied from traditional costume of Vietnam. I do think so.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> 漢 originated from China thus 漢 meant the Kinh were culturally Chinese.



How many time I have to tell you that the word 漢 in Han-Viet, this word got also a meaning "Majority people" in "Han - Man" concept. It is equivalent to "Kinh-Thuong" or "Mien Xuoi- Mien Nguoc" in Vietnamese. 

In my Family Tree, it stated that my ancestor was 漢 too. 鼻祖耳孫之自我族*漢*前先祖原*貫*于本社.... Does it mean culturally I'm Han Chinese ?

Base on your stupid analogy German, English, France are using Latin words, are they culturally Italian ?



Grand Historian said:


> Le Loi was of Trai stock,read works by Lieberman,Taylor and Li I'm not going to bother educating you.


.

It is also very funny that Lieberman, Taylor and Li Tina copied idea of Tran Quoc Vuong, Vietnamese historian. when he did survey in home village of Le Loi, he found that in this region nearby is existed Muong/Trai people.

This is fantastic hypothesis. No history proofs confirmed such funny idea until now.

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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> Haha. Her costume is actually the most fashionable in ancient times, looks even similar to today's fashion. I mean the woman on the chair. I guess she is a dope fiend? Her flip flops also catches up with the newest trend.  Wait, why the girl on the left naked?


my friend, she smokes opium obviously 
she wears a piece of traditional dress called "áo tứ thân", centuries old 4-part dress. a dress before "áo dài" came into existence.









the girl on the left is just half naked. I guess she belongs to the service staff


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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> my friend, she smokes opium obviously
> she wears a piece of traditional dress called "áo tứ thân", centuries old 4-part dress. a dress before "áo dài" came into existence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the girl on the left is just half naked. I guess she belongs to the service staff



áo dài = 奥黛（ao4 dai4）

Do you like them?


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## dichoi

Viet said:


> my friend, she smokes opium obviously



No, she smokes Thuoc Lao.


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## xesy

dichoi said:


> No, she smokes Thuoc Lao.


I think it was opium. Or you are joking.

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## Rechoice

Vietnamese woman in 17 century.







Hanoi/Tonkin people in painting from 1714 of Japanese painter..

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## Rechoice

Vietnamese man from 17 century.

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> This is Yuan Dynasty dressing,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dragon Robe from the Yuan dynasty.


This proves that Mongolians copied the pao from the Chinese not the other way around.

How many more lies are you going to spew?

Are these emperors Mongolian?












dichoi said:


> How many time I have to tell you that the word 漢 in Han-Viet, this word got also a meaning "Majority people" in "Han - Man" concept. It is equivalent to "Kinh-Thuong" or "Mien Xuoi- Mien Nguoc" in Vietnamese.
> 
> In my Family Tree, it stated that my ancestor was 漢 too. 鼻祖耳孫之自我族*漢*前先祖原*貫*于本社.... Does it mean culturally I'm Han Chinese ?
> 
> Base on your stupid analogy German, English, France are using Latin words, are they culturally Italian ?


漢 was synonymous for being culturally/ethnically Chinese,originally 漢 was a toponym for Hanzhong,while Xianbei used it as an ethonym for Sinitic speakers under Northern Wei and reaching full maturity under the Ming.

Vietnamese is culturally Chinese this you can't deny.



dichoi said:


> It is also very funny that Lieberman, Taylor and Li Tina copied idea of Tran Quoc Vuong, Vietnamese historian. when he did survey in home village of Le Loi, he found that in this region nearby is existed Muong/Trai people.
> 
> This is fantastic hypothesis. No history proofs confirmed such funny idea until now.


Why don't you provide some facts or show your scholarly credentials before your blow of claims you don't like?



Rechoice said:


> Mongolian type.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Chinese costume, basically copied ideas from Mongolian.


Chinese never used the headgear in the first picture and the second one is Manchu.



xesy said:


> Strange, I thought Chinese traditional culture always focus on educating "yi"/man di /barbarian and make them become part of China. China did that by spreading their culture, their model around, on modern term it's "soft power". And now some Chinese claim that other stole their culture. Oh, such hypocrite.


Strange that Vietnamese insist that Ming stole Vietnamese culture because supposedly the Mongols wiped it all out during the Yuan.

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> Here is Vietnam traditional ao dai, do not looks like hanfu.


Throughout history Vietnamese women wore variants of Hanfu not Ao Dai.

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> .


who is he? I wonder why he wore white robe? a Ming emperor I guess (the hat).
emperors wore traditional yellow or gold dress.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> who is he? I wonder why he wore white robe?
> emperors wore traditional yellow or gold dress.



The first Emperor of the Song Dynasty.

Emperor Taizu of Song - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Throughout history Vietnamese women wore variants of Hanfu not Ao Dai.


I suggest Viet girls today should wear the ancient dress from Tran, Le and Ly dynasties. the robes are much more beautiful. the dress from Mac period looks best.


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## Viet

1,000 Years of Vietnamese Clothing by lilsuika on deviantART

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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> áo dài = 奥黛（ao4 dai4）
> 
> Do you like them?


the dress is "áo tứ thân" (4-part dress). áo dài (long dress) is different.
look at pic #23 and #24 of the image above.


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> 漢 was synonymous for being culturally/ethnically Chinese,originally 漢 was a toponym for Hanzhong,while Xianbei used it as an ethonym for Sinitic speakers under Northern Wei and reaching full maturity under the Ming.
> Vietnamese is culturally Chinese this you can't deny.



Chinese copied the word " 文化" from Kanji, does it mean culturally Chinese are Japanese ?



> Why don't you provide some facts or show your scholarly credentials before your blow of claims you don't like?



Sun Yatsen* 孫逸仙 *is came from Canton, there is native land of Zhuang 本地 people. Some one could tell a joke that Sun Yatsen belong to Zhuang stock too.

Ancestor of Lê Lợi has a name Lê Hối, his hometown from Thanh Hoa Province Vietnam. He visited Lam Sơn mountainous area, after that he moved his family to there. Le Loi is fourth generation descent of Le Hoi. In reality, Lam Son is not true home town of Le Loi.

Le Hoi married Nguyễn Thị Ngọc Duyên, the son is Lê Đinh.
Lê Đinh married Nguyễn Thị Quách, the sons are Lê Tòng and Lê Khoáng.
Lê Khoáng married Trịnh Thị Ngọc Thương, sons are Lê Học, Lê Trừ and Lê Lợi.
_
Tổ bốn đời của *Lê Lợi* là Lê Hối, người Thanh Hóa. Một hôm đến vùng núi Lam Sơn thấy cảnh đất lành chim đậu, ông dời nhà về đây. Lê Hối lấy bà Nguyễn Thị Ngọc Duyên, sinh ra Lê Đinh, tức là ông nội của Lê Lợi. Lê Đinh lấy bà Nguyễn Thị Quách sinh ra hai người con là Lê Tòng và Lê Khoáng. Lê Khoáng lấy bà Trịnh Thị Ngọc Thương sinh được ba người con: Lê Học, Lê Trừ và Lê Lợi_.

Lê Thái Tổ – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

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## xesy

@dichoi Kanji is actually ancient Hanzi, or "Chữ Hán phồn thể", similar to our "Nôm". Most East Asia nations were influenced by Chinese culture in some degree. What you just said can be used by that troll against you. Be prepared.


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## dichoi

xesy said:


> @dichoi Kanji is actually ancient Hanzi, or "Chữ Hán phồn thể", similar to our "Nôm". Most East Asia nations were influenced by Chinese culture in some degree. What you just said can be used by that troll against you. Be prepared.



The combination word of two word 文+化 = "文化", it got the meaning of " Culture " is created by Japanese first for new concept (khai niem) to " Culture", 文 and 化 is both origin Han Zi. I will find the source of this matter for you later.


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## Edison Chen

dichoi said:


> The combination word of two word 文+化 = 文化, it got the meaning of " Culture " is made by Japanese first. I will find the source for this matter you later.



China borrowed quite many Japanese words in late 19th and early 20th century. 文化 is one of them.

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## dichoi

Edison Chen said:


> China borrowed quite many Japanese words in late 19th and early 20th century. 文化 is one of them.



Thanks you very much, for your comment. You are 好漢, bro.

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## Snomannen

Edison Chen said:


> China borrowed quite many Japanese words in late 19th and early 20th century. 文化 is one of them.



Not really:

《說苑·指武》：「凡武之興，為不服也，*文化*不改，然後加誅。」

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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> This proves that Mongolians copied the pao from the Chinese not the other way around.
> How many more lies are you going to spew?
> Are these emperors Mongolian?



*The influence of the mongols of the Ming dynasty costumes*
*







The ancient portraits (The emperor of Ming dynasty and his guards with Mongolian type costumes ) 



*

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> *The influence of the mongols of the Ming dynasty costumes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ancient portraits (The emperor of Ming dynasty and his guards with Mongolian type costumes )
> 
> 
> 
> *


This isn't the dragon pao...


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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> This isn't the dragon pao...



Are you blind ?

Ming Dynasty Emperor is sitting in the middle. His Long Pao is in the same type with costume of guards.

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## Huaren

Edison Chen said:


> China borrowed quite many Japanese words in late 19th and early 20th century. 文化 is one of them.



Please, if you can read chinese you could find the origin for most common words easily on the net including the historical sources, do some research first:


“文化”是中国语言系统中古已有之的词汇。

“文”的本义，指各色交错的纹理。《易系辞下》载：“物相杂，故曰文。”《礼记乐记》称：“五色成文而不乱。”《说文解字》称：“文，错画也，象交叉”均指此义。在此基础上，“文”又有若干引申义。其一，为包括语言文字内的各种象征符号，进而具体化为文物典籍、礼乐制度。 《尚书 序》 所载伏曦画八卦，造书契，“由是文籍生焉”，《论语子罕》所载孔子说“文王既没，文不在兹乎”，是其实例。其二，由伦理之说导出彩画、装饰、人为修养之义，与“质”、“实”对称，所以《尚书·舜典》疏曰“经纬天地曰文”，《论语·雍也》称“质胜文则野，文胜质则史，文质彬彬，然后君子”。其三，在前两层意义之上，更导出美、善、德行之义，这便是《礼记·乐记》所谓“礼减两进，以进为文”，郑玄注“文犹美也，善也”，《尚书·大禹谟》所谓“文命敷于四海，祗承于帝”。

“化”，本义为改易、生成、造化，如《庄子·逍遥游》：“化而为鸟，其名曰鹏”。《易·系辞下》：“男女构精，万物化生”。《黄帝内经·素问》：“化不可代，时不可违”。《礼记·中庸》：“可以赞天地之化育”等等。归纳以上诸说，“化”指事物形态或性质的改变，同时“化”又引申为教行迁善之义。

“文”与“化”并联使用，较早见之于战国末年儒生编辑的《易·贲卦·象传》：（刚柔交错），天文也。文明以止，人文也。观乎天文，以察时变；观乎人文，以化成天下。这段话里的“文”，即从纹理之义演化而来。日月往来交错文饰于天，即“天文”，亦即天道自然规律。同样，
"人文”，指人伦社会规律，即社会生活中人与人之间纵横交织的关系，如君臣、父子、夫妇、兄弟、朋友，构成复杂网络，具有纹理表象。这段话说，治国者须观察天文，以明了时序之变化，又须观察人文，使天下之人均能遵从文明礼仪，行为止其所当止。在这里 “人文”与“化成天下”紧密联系，

“以文教化”的思想已十分明确。

*西汉以后，“文”与“化”方合成一个整词，如“文化不改，然后加诛”（《说苑·指武》），“文化内辑，武功外悠”*
（《文选·补之诗》）。这里的“文化”，或与天造地设的自然对举，或与无教化的“质朴”、“野蛮”对举。因此，在汉语系统中，"文化”的本义就是“以文教化”，它表示对人的性情的陶冶，品德的教养，本属精神领域之范畴。随着时间的流变和空间的差异，现在“文化”已成为一个内涵丰富、外延宽广的多维概念，成为众多学科探究、阐发、争鸣的对象，但基本形成了以下的共识：

文化作为人类社会的现实存在，具有与人类本身同样古老的历史。人类从“茹毛饮血，茫然于人道”（王夫之“《读通鉴论》卷二十）的“植立之兽”（《思问录·外篇》）演化而来，逐渐形成与“天道”既相联系又相区别的“人道”，这便是文化的创造过程。在文化的创造与发中，主体是人，客体是自然，而文化便是人与自然、主体与客体在实践中的对立统一物。这里的“自然”，不仅指存在于人身之外并与之对立的外在自然界，也指人类的本能、人的身体的各种生物属性等自然性。文化的出发点是从事改造自然、改造社会的活动，进而也改造自身即实践着的人。人创造了文化，同样文化也创造了人。举例言之：一块天然的岩石不具备文化意蕴，但经过人工打磨，便注入了人的价值观念和劳动技能，从而进入“文化”范畴。因此，文化的实质性含义是“人化”或“人类化”，是人类主体通过社会实践活动，适应、利用、改造自然界客体而逐步实现自身价值观念的过程。这一过程的成果体现，既反映在自然面貌、形态、功能的不断改观，更反映在人类个体与群体素质（生理与心理的、工艺与道德.

文化being together as a word can find its orgin in the han dynasty, and was being used repeatedly ever since then, dont give the viets any wrong ideas to make their obsession worse, lol.

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> Are you blind ?
> 
> Ming Dynasty Emperor is sitting in the middle. His Long Pao is in the same type with costume of guards.


That's not a pao

He's not even wearing gongfu,which you claimed was based off Mongolians.








dichoi said:


> Chinese copied the word " 文化" from Kanji, does it mean culturally Chinese are Japanese ?


KirovAirship already busted your lie on 文化.

Tell me where is 漢 used that doesn't mean Chinese other than certain toponyms?



dichoi said:


> Sun Yatsen* 孫逸仙 *is came from Canton, there is native land of Zhuang 本地 people. Some one could tell a joke that Sun Yatsen belong to Zhuang stock too.
> 
> Ancestor of Lê Lợi has a name Lê Hối, his hometown from Thanh Hoa Province Vietnam. He visited Lam Sơn mountainous area, after that he moved his family to there. Le Loi is fourth generation descent of Le Hoi. In reality, Lam Son is not true home town of Le Loi.
> 
> Le Hoi married Nguyễn Thị Ngọc Duyên, the son is Lê Đinh.
> Lê Đinh married Nguyễn Thị Quách, the sons are Lê Tòng and Lê Khoáng.
> Lê Khoáng married Trịnh Thị Ngọc Thương, sons are Lê Học, Lê Trừ and Lê Lợi.
> _Tổ bốn đời của *Lê Lợi* là Lê Hối, người Thanh Hóa. Một hôm đến vùng núi Lam Sơn thấy cảnh đất lành chim đậu, ông dời nhà về đây. Lê Hối lấy bà Nguyễn Thị Ngọc Duyên, sinh ra Lê Đinh, tức là ông nội của Lê Lợi. Lê Đinh lấy bà Nguyễn Thị Quách sinh ra hai người con là Lê Tòng và Lê Khoáng. Lê Khoáng lấy bà Trịnh Thị Ngọc Thương sinh được ba người con: Lê Học, Lê Trừ và Lê Lợi_.
> 
> Lê Thái Tổ – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


Look up the village where Sun Yixian was born in,the Zhuang never lived in the area while Le Loi was right next to the Muong.

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## BoQ77

Hi, could you post nowaday costumes in China and in Vietnam ? LOL
where they from ?


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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> That's not a pao
> He's not even wearing gongfu,which you claimed was based off Mongolians.



Ha ha, you are true little historian from Min Yue, bro.

you don't know about such pic, the first pic is from Mongolian type costume and second is pic from Ming Emperor and his guard. The idea to comparison is not my ... ha ha.

You can find it on INTERNET.

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## Etilla

How did Ho Chi Minh really die?


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## BoQ77

Ho Chi Minh gone at 79 years old by natural reason in 2/9/1969


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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> Ha ha, you are true little historian from Min Yue, bro.
> 
> you don't know about such pic, the first pic is from Mongolian type custom and second is pic from Ming Emperor and his guard. The idea to comparison is not my ... ha ha.
> 
> You can find it on INTERNET.


You're literally too stupid to comprehend the difference between the Emperor's yuanlingpao and the Mongol style one.

I already posted the Hongwu Emperor,that is a dragon robe.

"Ming Dynasty style is Yuan style of Mongolian. Qing style is Manchurian style."

While I showed you that he pao predate the Mongols,the Wushamao evolved from the putou and that the mandarin square wasn't used during the Yuan.

You made the claim now prove it


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## mrfly911

Grand Historian said:


> Tell me where is 漢 used that doesn't mean Chinese other than certain toponyms?


How about *漢城 Seoul?*

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> KirovAirship already busted your lie on 文化.
> Tell me where is 漢 used that doesn't mean Chinese other than certain toponyms?



read more here, I quote for you. Chinese borrowed from Japanese many combination words were created by Japanese first.

_Terms from Japanese, however, have been more readily accepted when the Japanese used their own borrowed Chinese characters when developing terminology for modern technology and for political and economic concepts. The Japanese pronounced the Chinese characters in their pronunciation of them, while the Chinese borrowed the written versions and pronounced them in the Chinese way. Some examples 
(Norman 1988) are: 

Japanese /Chinese Meaning

bunka /文化 wenhua / culture 
kakumei  /革命 geming / revolution 
kagaku /科学 kexue / science 
keito /系统 xitong / system 
shakai /社会 shehui / society _

Some of these compounds had existed in Chinese, but the Japanese used them to translate modern concepts. So such combination words 文化 ,社会 , 革命 , 科学 , 系统 were created by Japanese, not Chinese.

http://www.uri.edu/iaics/content/2005v14n2/05 Bates L. Hoffer.pdf


Grand Historian said:


> Look up the village where Sun Yixian was born in,the Zhuang never lived in the area while Le Loi was right next to the Muong.


.

Don't forget that Kwan dong, Kwan xi province was native land of Nan Yue people. Kwan xi , there is Zhuang Authonom.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> Tell me where is 漢 used that doesn't mean Chinese other than certain toponyms?



I would like to borrow comment of mrfly911 that: the people in *漢城 or Seoul* is culturally Han chinese, the rést òf Korean people are not.

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## BoQ77

You are good at Chinese, I just know latin-based .
The language and costumes, hairstyle derived from Western now.

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## EastSea

Mr. Ah Q in novel of Lu Sun, he is famous Chinese novelist, Ah Q said that: 革命 ( cách mệnh in Vietnamese) mean "to be cut a head".

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## mrfly911

dichoi said:


> How many time I have to tell you that the word 漢 in Han-Viet, this word got also a meaning "Majority people" in "Han - Man" concept. It is equivalent to "Kinh-Thuong" or "Mien Xuoi- Mien Nguoc" in Vietnamese.


So, is *漢城 or Seoul *means The city of Majorrity (Korean) people?


dichoi said:


> I would like to borrow comment of mrfly911 that: the people in *漢城 or Seoul* is culturally Han chinese, the rést òf Korean people are not.


Is *漢城 or Seoul *means The city of (Han) Chinese?


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## Grand Historian

mrfly911 said:


> How about *漢城 Seoul?*


Do you even know what toponym is?

You do realize that its based on the Han river.



dichoi said:


> read more here, I quote for you. Chinese borrowed from Japanese many combination words were created by Japanese first.
> 
> _Terms from Japanese, however, have been more readily accepted when the Japanese used their own borrowed Chinese characters when developing terminology for modern technology and for political and economic concepts. The Japanese pronounced the Chinese characters in their pronunciation of them, while the Chinese borrowed the written versions and pronounced them in the Chinese way. Some examples
> (Norman 1988) are:
> 
> Japanese /Chinese Meaning
> 
> bunka /文化 wenhua / culture
> kakumei /革命 geming / revolution
> kagaku /科学 kexue / science
> keito /系统 xitong / system
> shakai /社会 shehui / society _
> 
> Some of these compounds had existed in Chinese, but the Japanese used them to translate modern concepts. So such combination words 文化 ,社会 , 革命 , 科学 , 系统 were created by Japanese, not Chinese.
> 
> http://www.uri.edu/iaics/content/2005v14n2/05 Bates L. Hoffer.pdf


How shameless are you other posters have already shown you many of the supposed words that were borrowed from the Japanese already had a Chinese origin.

You do realize that these words are based on combining different Hanzi that have the same meaning in Chinese right?



dichoi said:


> Don't forget that Kwan dong, Kwan xi province was native land of Nan Yue people. Kwan xi , there is Zhuang Authonom.


If you're going to argue that Guangdong/Guangxi used to belong to Nanyue,then you have to realize the culture was highly Sinicized and followed a Qin model showing that they already considered themselves Chinese.

Furthermore the Zhuang that remained autonomous and tusi existed primarily in Western Guangxi while Sun Yixian's ancestral village were made up of Hans.

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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> You're literally too stupid to comprehend the difference between the Emperor's yuanlingpao and the Mongol style one.
> 
> I already posted the Hongwu Emperor,that is a dragon robe.
> 
> "Ming Dynasty style is Yuan style of Mongolian. Qing style is Manchurian style."
> 
> While I showed you that he pao predate the Mongols,the Wushamao evolved from the putou and that the mandarin square wasn't used during the Yuan.
> 
> You made the claim now prove it



you are funny historian bro, dragon robe or Huang Pao is for the festival, huang jia ceremony or court meetting session. Hongwu Emperor in everyday life is like this with dark color robe.

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> you are funny historian bro, dragon robe or Huang Pao is for the festival, huang jia ceremony or court meetting session. Hongwu Emperor in everyday life is like this with dark color robe.


Nice to see the liar hasn't changed at all.


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## SimonTagawa

NiceGuy said:


> Đông Kinh (Kingdom in the East), not 'Động Kinh', bro. 'Động Kinh' is brain disease



Yes, I see now. Thank you for the correction. I meant to write Đông Kinh (Eastern Capital) and not Động Kinh.

Tokyo, Japan was called Edo. The city's name was changed Tokyo (東京) in 1868.


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## SimonTagawa

Rechoice said:


> very boring with such arrogant troll , look at yourself Hokkien people. Min Nan people ran around in China under rule of Han Chinese. Taiwan Hokkien people was also ruled by Japanese after first Sino-Japan war, didn't escaped to where (part of you to south east asian) .
> 
> Pls focus on independence of Taiwan first.





Grand Historian said:


> Not my fault you are too incompetent to realize that Vietnam provoked China multiple times instead of your nationalist narrative that Chinese wanted to invade Vietnam for no reason.
> 
> What do Minnan and Taiwanese Han have to do with Vietnam?
> 
> Every single time you run out of arguments you rely on flamebaiting others.
> 
> 
> Read books instead of whining to me,why are Vietnamese so upset to find out the truth?
> 
> They didn't live in Chinese lands or had descendants that became Chinese the source of these raids were from Vietnam,while the minorities of Guangxi and Yunnan rarely allied invading Vietnamese forces and conducted their own rebellions/raids.
> 
> The Ho dynasty had no reason to raid Chinese provinces,as these events transpired before the Tran pretender reached the Ming court as well as Hongwu Emperor proclaiming that Vietnam was one the countries the Ming shouldn't invade.



Hi, sorry to butt into your conversations. Do you folks know the history of the Kingdom of Tungning which was once located in today's Taiwan? After the fall of Ming to the Manchus Qing, Teiseiko (郑成功) or Trịnh Thành Công in vietnamese, a military leader, led Hokkien people to what is now Taiwan to resist the Manchus. His clan is also know as nhà Trịnh (house of Trịnh) in vietnamese. This history is somewhat obscured through hundreds of years of politics and boundaries. Only little facts and lore remain of the existence of this short-live kingdom. 

Through thousands of years of intermarriages between people from different origin who seek employment in different kingdoms or nations, isn't it amazing that most people could trace their surnames to a common ancestry? History sure can unite and divide people. A very useful tool for politicians.

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## Viet

SimonTagawa said:


> Yes, I see now. Thank you for the correction. I meant to write Đông *Kinh *(Eastern Capital) and not Động Kinh.
> 
> Tokyo, Japan was called Edo. The city's name was changed Tokyo (東京) in 1868.


he he he...welcome to the forum. are you japanese? cool. we need more japanese members here.
yes, kinh is capital. the majority of Vietnamese is ethnic kinh, the people of capital.


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## Grand Historian

SimonTagawa said:


> Hi, sorry to butt into your conversations. Do you folks know the history of the Kingdom of Tungning which was once located in today's Taiwan? After the fall of Ming to the Manchus Qing, Teiseiko (郑成功) or Trịnh Thành Công in vietnamese, a military leader, led Hokkien people to what is now Taiwan to resist the Manchus. His clan is also know as nhà Trịnh (house of Trịnh) in vietnamese. This history is somewhat obscured through hundreds of years of politics and boundaries. Only little facts and lore remain of the existence of this short-live kingdom.
> 
> Through thousands of years of intermarriages between people from different origin who seek employment in different kingdoms or nations, isn't it amazing that most people could trace their surnames to a common ancestry? History sure can unite and divide people. A very useful tool for politicians.


Except Zheng Chengong/Koxinga or his descendants never viewed themselves as Japanese despite having Japanese ancestry.

Some Taiwanese Han do indeed trace their ancestry to the Ming loyalists of Zheng Chengong however a large portion of hist troops returned to the mainland after Shi Lang's victory and subsequent Qing annexation.

The only relationship between Southern Fujianese and Vietnamese is that Fujianese Han migrated to Vietnam.

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## Viet

@Grand Historian

that is perhaps of your interest. below is a record of the tribute-bearing mission in 1880 by the Vietnamese emperor Tu Duc to Imperial China. Tu Duc was the fourth of the twelve Nguyen dynasty emperors. I am a bit surprised that although the French had Vietnam under control by conquest and colonization, Vietnamese emperors continued to pay tributes to the Qing. The French had tried to disrupte the tribute missions.

well, the Nguyen Emperor Tu Duc reigned over a declining country Vietnam.










_This map shows the Vietnamese tribute mission traveling through Gong Xian County in Henan Province and crossing the Luo River.British Library_





















Arriving at Ansu Xian County in Hebei Province, north of the Yellow River, their route took them through temples and the White PagodaBritish Library





The manuscript names various towns and distances in between them.British Library


These ancient manuscripts show China dominated Vietnam in the 1800s, too – Quartz

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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Nice to see the liar hasn't changed at all.



I posted such pic of Ming Dynasty's Emperor in China, which painted by chinese, 

Are they liars ?


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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> I posted such pic of Ming Dynasty's Emperor in China, which painted by chinese,
> 
> Are they liars ?


Which has nothing to with the Emperor's yuanlingpao ie dragon robe which you claimed originated from the Mongols.

I never stated that the Ming didn't adopt any Mongol elements,rather you insisted that Ming dynasty gongfu was Mongolian which I proved wasn't.


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## Rechoice

Viet said:


> The manuscript names various towns and distances in between them.British Library
> These ancient manuscripts show China dominated Vietnam in the 1800s, too – Quartz



It is envoy to normal diplomacy relation in the past with Man Qing, when Manchurian ruled China.

Tu Duc has also sended Bui Vien to USA. from Hue he traveled by ship to Hongkong in 1873, to Yakohoma and arrived to Washington, he met US president Ulysses Grant (term 1868 1876).

http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bùi_Viện

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> It is envoy to normal diplomacy relation in the past with Man Qing, when Manchurian ruled China.
> 
> Tu Duc has also sended Bui Vien to USA.
> 
> http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bùi_Viện


How many lies are you going to state the Qing government never called themselves Man Qing and neither did the average Han.

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## Viet

Rechoice said:


> It is envoy to normal diplomacy relation in the past with Man Qing, when Manchurian ruled China.
> 
> Tu Duc has also sended Bui Vien to USA.
> 
> http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bùi_Viện


Manchurian ruler is the Qing, similar to the Mongolian as Yuan.

I guess Tu Duc sent envoy to pay tribute and to seek help from Qing in the fight against the French. I am trying to understand why the Qing failed to protect Vietnam despite the fact the Nguyen had formally recognised the Qing as suzerain. Yes, we paid tributes, but we received obviously no protection in return. When Chinese were willing to intervene, that was too late.


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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Which has nothing to with the Emperor's yuanlingpao ie dragon robe which you claimed originated from the Mongols.
> 
> I never stated that the Ming didn't adopt any Mongol elements,rather you insisted that Ming dynasty gongfu was Mongolian which I proved wasn't.



I copy for you, it said about Yuan pao:

* " Dragon Robe from the Yuan dynasty.*The earliest literary references to emperors donning dragon robes occur in an ancient text called Shujing(书经). In it, the mystical Emperor Shun describes an *ideal imperial costume as one which contained images of the sun, moon, stars, dragons and mountains*, as these are all emblems of the empire and the emperor's power."

It said; From the Yuan Dynasty,

Dressing Yuan Dynasty on Pinterest

I said about Ming Emperor and his guards's costume type only, I don't said a word "gongfu" .

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## Rechoice

Viet said:


> Manchurian ruler is the Qing, similar to the Mongolian as Yuan.
> 
> I guess Tu Duc sent envoy to pay tribute and to seek help from Qing in the fight against the French. I am trying to understand why the Qing failed to protect Vietnam despite the fact the Nguyen had formally recognised the Qing as suzerain. Yes, we paid tributes, but we received obviously no protection in return. When Chinese were willing to intervene, that was too late.



Bui Vien in 1876 did what you think. He asked USA for help to counter France. But envoy 1888 is meaning less, because agreement Quy Mui 1883 .Vietnam was already under control (protectorate) of France .

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> I copy for you, it said about Yuan pao:
> 
> * " Dragon Robe from the Yuan dynasty.*The earliest literary references to emperors donning dragon robes occur in an ancient text called Shujing(书经). In it, the mystical Emperor Shun describes an *ideal imperial costume as one which contained images of the sun, moon, stars, dragons and mountains*, as these are all emblems of the empire and the emperor's power."
> 
> It said; From the Yuan Dynasty,
> 
> Dressing Yuan Dynasty on Pinterest
> 
> I said about Ming Emperor and his guards's costume type only, I don't said a word "gongfu" .


Nope, you quoted KirovAirship in his reply about Ming era gongfu.

"Ming Dynasty style is Yuan style of Mongolian. Qing style is Manchurian style."

You made this ridiculous claim now why don't you back it up?

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## Jlaw

terranMarine said:


> it's hopeless with these china expert macacas. Always stealing our history, even our Ming dynasty hanfu suddenly are traditional Vietnamese style.



let's take a pic of yourself in jeans, post it here and say that the West copied your style of clothing. Viet logic at it's worse. It's not even funny anymore.

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## terranMarine

Jlaw said:


> let's take a pic of yourself in jeans, post it here and say that the West copied your style of clothing. Viet logic at it's worse. It's not even funny anymore.


the sad thing is they treat themselves as China expert, some Chinese cultural stuff were copied from Vietnam well they insist we did anyway.  Have they been brainwashed by their own ancestors/textbooks?

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## Huaren

terranMarine said:


> the sad thing is they treat themselves as China expert, some Chinese cultural stuff were copied from Vietnam well they insist we did anyway.  Have they been brainwashed by their own ancestors/textbooks?


They have been brainwashed by their delusions and obsessions.

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## terranMarine

Huaren said:


> They have been brainwashed by their delusions and obsessions.


obsessed with Chinese rich history and as the sole Asian #1 for thousands of years

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## Huaren

terranMarine said:


> obsessed with Chinese rich history and as the sole Asian #1 for thousands of years


They are not the only one with such obsession, remember the tales from Korea and propaganda from Japan? They are always eager to take any oppertunity to claim chinese heritages to call themselves the true "heir" or "origin". Especially when china had fallout with babarians and when some chinese citizens took refuge in their land, suddently the rest of chinese civilization were to be considered extinct, and voila we got some new heir(s). They have never realized the resilience of chinese civilization (where their own pride as nation is formed after), even if they did they would refuse to acknowledge it and continued to fool themselves.
However I see their obsession with China as compliment, although a bit annoying.

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## East Lake

dichoi said:


> read more here, I quote for you. Chinese borrowed from Japanese many combination words were created by Japanese first.
> 
> _Terms from Japanese, however, have been more readily accepted when the Japanese used their own borrowed Chinese characters when developing terminology for modern technology and for political and economic concepts. The Japanese pronounced the Chinese characters in their pronunciation of them, while the Chinese borrowed the written versions and pronounced them in the Chinese way. Some examples
> (Norman 1988) are:
> 
> Japanese /Chinese Meaning
> 
> bunka /文化 wenhua / culture
> kakumei /革命 geming / revolution
> kagaku /科学 kexue / science
> keito /系统 xitong / system
> shakai /社会 shehui / society _
> 
> Some of these compounds had existed in Chinese, but the Japanese used them to translate modern concepts. So such combination words 文化 ,社会 , 革命 , 科学 , 系统 were created by Japanese, not Chinese.
> 
> Don't forget that Kwan dong, Kwan xi province was native land of Nan Yue people. Kwan xi , there is Zhuang Authonom.



Although it is true that Chinese reborrowed a lot of Western ideas through the use of Japanese. I wouldn't call this borrowing from Japan in a traditional sense. These words were using Classical Chinese to translate Western ideas. The only difference is that a Japanese person created these words. I don't think China would have borrowed them if it weren't for convenience or if they were actually Japanese. There's only so many combinations you can use Chinese to translate modern words. I would think China would have came up with a similar combination or something different (like some other modern words).

I am fluent in Chinese and can't think of any actual Japanese words of the top of my head. I think I've heard Ichiban used before, but very rare.

As for 汉 it can mean manliness like 大男汉.


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## xesy

Huaren said:


> They have been brainwashed by their delusions and obsessions.


Excuse me, I used to pretty neutral towards China, even like it a little a few years back (my mom worked for a Chinese corp). I grew up near the VN-China border yet there was no "special education" applied to me during my times there. Most VNese didn't hate China as you might think. It all started with the 9 dash lines map in 2009. That was when anti-China movement started among VNese. Many didn't take it seriously at first, thinking that was just an act of anti-communist govt factions. But with China stepped up their actions: arresting fishing ships, even shooting them, destroying VNese national properties (Binh Minh cable ship incident) or even trespassing our EEZ, many VNese becomes angry. You are wrong about us being brainwashed. No China makes us hate itself.


terranMarine said:


> obsessed with Chinese rich history and as the sole Asian #1 for thousands of years


Nope, that's your obessesion.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> How shameless are you other posters have already shown you many of the supposed words that were borrowed from the Japanese already had a Chinese origin.
> You do realize that these words are based on combining different Hanzi that have the same meaning in Chinese right?



It is shamelessly for you, when such modern terms, developing terminology for modern technology and for political and economic concepts, chinese did not created by yourselves first. Japanese did it and Chinese borrowed back.

You can not deny this truth.



Grand Historian said:


> If you're going to argue that Guangdong/Guangxi used to belong to Nanyue,then you have to realize the culture was highly Sinicized and followed a Qin model showing that they already considered themselves Chinese.
> Furthermore the Zhuang that remained autonomous and tusi existed primarily in Western Guangxi while Sun Yixian's ancestral village were made up of Hans.



as I said before, It is should be a joke. In fact, Sun Yat Sen is hakka in ethnicity and Le Loi is Kinh Viet.

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## Aepsilons

I do have a question for the Vietnamese members here: @xesy , @Viet , @dichoi , @Battle of Bach Dang River , @BoQ77 --

During Annam / Dai Viet's expansion to the south, was there a policy by the Sovreigns in Annam / Dai Viet to conquer not just Champa (Southern Vietnam), but also what is now present day Cambodia, and Laos? I wonder what were the factors that prevented the Vietnamese from completely annexing the Kingdom of Lovek (Cambodia) and the Kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos). Do you attribute this to the Siamese / Ayudhaya ?


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## dichoi

East Lake said:


> Although it is true that Chinese reborrowed a lot of Western ideas through the use of Japanese. I wouldn't call this borrowing from Japan in a traditional sense. These words were using Classical Chinese to translate Western ideas. The only difference is that a Japanese person created these words. I don't think China would have borrowed them if it weren't for convenience or if they were actually Japanese. There's only so many combinations you can use Chinese to translate modern words. I would think China would have came up with a similar combination or something different (like some other modern words).
> 
> I am fluent in Chinese and can't think of any actual Japanese words of the top of my head. I think I've heard Ichiban used before, but very rare.
> 
> As for 汉 it can mean manliness like 大男汉.



It is nothing wrong bro, when we could borrow some word or many words from other people in the world. It is normal life as we are human being.

I just answered ( trolled ) on you guy when he said that in the past Han Zi is official used in Vietnam and in Nguyễn Dynasty era our historian labeled Kinh people is Han, it mean culturally Viets are Han Chinese.

You nick is Xi Hu in Jie Jiang, do you come from *浙江省 ?*


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## Brainsucker

dichoi said:


> It is shamelessly for you, when such modern terms, developing terminology for modern technology and for political and economic concepts, chinese did not created by yourselves first. Japanese did it and Chinese borrowed back.
> 
> You can not deny this truth.
> 
> as I said before, It is should be a joke. In fact, Sun Yat Sen is hakka in ethnicity and Le Loi is Kinh Viet.



I'm a Hakka myself. But Hakka is an ethnic? Nope. Hakka is a part of Han ethnicity.


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## BoQ77

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I do have a question for the Vietnamese members here: ] --
> 
> During Annam / Dai Viet's expansion to the south, was there a policy by the Sovreigns in Annam / Dai Viet to conquer not just Champa (Southern Vietnam), but also what is now present day Cambodia, and Laos? I wonder what were the factors that prevented the Vietnamese from completely annexing the Kingdom of Lovek (Cambodia) and the Kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos). Do you attribute this to the Siamese / Ayudhaya ?



Others could have different opinion, especially NiceGuy.

In my opinion, Dai Viet residents almost based on River Delta land for growing rice.
And until pre-Nguyen Dynasty during 18th century, the civil conflict between Tay Son vs Nguyen Phuc Anh still have intervene of Siam military as backup to Nguyen Phuc Anh in nowaday South Vietnam.

Nguyen Phuc Anh put his base in Mekong River Delta, when he defeated Tay Son dynasty, he unified Vietnam as One look like nowaday Vietnam. It's him not French merged South Vietnam into Greater Vietnam.

Under his rule, Vietnam strengthened its military dominance in Indochina, expelling Siamese forces from Cambodia and turning it into a vassal state.


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## dichoi

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I do have a question for the Vietnamese members here: @xesy , @Viet , @dichoi , @Battle of Bach Dang River , @BoQ77 --
> 
> During Annam / Dai Viet's expansion to the south, was there a policy by the Sovreigns in Annam / Dai Viet to conquer not just Champa (Southern Vietnam), but also what is now present day Cambodia, and Laos? I wonder what were the factors that prevented the Vietnamese from completely annexing the Kingdom of Lovek (Cambodia) and the Kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos). Do you attribute this to the Siamese / Ayudhaya ?



Here is map of Annam Empire mad by France before time Napoleon III took the first steps to establishing a French colonial influence in Indochina in 1858. In fact Laotien and Cambodian King is still existed and could ruled in their own land as stated in the map.

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## SimonTagawa

Viet said:


> he he he...welcome to the forum. are you japanese? cool. we need more japanese members here.
> yes, kinh is capital. the majority of Vietnamese is ethnic kinh, the people of capital.


Thank you for the information. 

About the name "Kinh" to describe yourself as of Vietnamese ethnicity, I heard of a story of the origin of the first use of this word to refer to northern Vietnamese in China but do not know how true it is since the use of the word "Kinh" (Gin/Jing;京) when referring to Vietnamese people in China dated back to the 1600s. Maybe someone here can confirm?

The story goes that during the 17th-19th century, in China, if you were to ask a non-Manchus where the king reside, they would say to the South, where the capital is at (perhaps as an act of defiance against the Qing monarchy or perhaps they felt that Viet monarchy was a much closer kin to their former Ming than the ruling Qing). Therefore, the name Kinh is still used to this day to refer to Vietnamese living in China. Nevertheless, this views may have changed as the influences of the Qing monarchy and power spread throughout China.

As I know today, traveling through Vietnam, southern Vietnamese refer to northern Vietnamese as "Bắc Kỳ" (Northern Flag) and Vietnamese people refer to themselves as "người Việt" to foreigners and use "người Kinh" to differ themselves from the ethnic minorities in Vietnam.

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## EastSea

Rechoice said:


> Bui Vien in 1876 did what you think. He asked USA for help to counter France. But envoy 1888 is meaning less, because agreement Quy Mui 1883 .Vietnam was already under control (protectorate) of France .



Bui Vien street in Ho Chi Minh city.

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## mrfly911

Brainsucker said:


> I'm a Hakka myself. But Hakka is an ethnic? Nope. Hakka is a part of Han ethnicity.


Hakka means guest


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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> It is shamelessly for you, when such modern terms, developing terminology for modern technology and for political and economic concepts, chinese did not created by yourselves first. Japanese did it and Chinese borrowed back.
> 
> You can not deny this truth.


You've been busted already on your claims on wenhua etc,the Japanese used Chinese Hanzi with the same meaning in Chinese languages and merely combined them.



dichoi said:


> as I said before, It is should be a joke. In fact, Sun Yat Sen is hakka in ethnicity and Le Loi is Kinh Viet.


You should read "A History of the Vietnamese" ,there were regionalism tensions amongst Sinicized Red River elites and the unsincized Thanh Hoa elites. While Sun Yixian's ancestors were not treated as Zhuang and had the same culture as their neighbors.

Tell me when did Kinh even apply to Le Loi,an analogy would be calling Qin Shihuang a Han.

The modern day meaning of Han already coalesced during the Ming while the first time it was used as an ethonym was during the Northern Wei while Kinh was abandoned during the Nguyen and revived during modern times.



mrfly911 said:


> Hakka means guest


They are still considered Han.


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## xesy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I do have a question for the Vietnamese members here: @xesy , @Viet , @dichoi , @Battle of Bach Dang River , @BoQ77 --
> 
> During Annam / Dai Viet's expansion to the south, was there a policy by the Sovreigns in Annam / Dai Viet to conquer not just Champa (Southern Vietnam), but also what is now present day Cambodia, and Laos? I wonder what were the factors that prevented the Vietnamese from completely annexing the Kingdom of Lovek (Cambodia) and the Kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos). Do you attribute this to the Siamese / Ayudhaya ?


Personally, I think there were both external and internal factors that prevented VN from expanding at that time. Internally, VN had a century long civil war, and neither sides could completely anihilate the other side. That was a time of chaos, if you ask me. Externally, Siam empire was a formidable rival, roughly equal in military power as VN. And there was China, who wouldn't want a new power rising from the South, especially our expansion started right after Ming dynasty collapsed and Qing dynasty established. Also after the civil war, the govt was a pro-China govt, and would listen to anything Chinese emperor wanted.

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## Viet

SimonTagawa said:


> Thank you for the information.
> 
> About the name "Kinh" to describe yourself as of Vietnamese ethnicity, I heard of a story of the origin of the first use of this word to refer to northern Vietnamese in China but do not know how true it is since the use of the word "*Kinh*" (Gin/Jing;京) when referring to Vietnamese people in China dated back to the 1600s. Maybe someone here can confirm?
> 
> The story goes that during the 17th-19th century, in China, if you were to ask a non-Manchus where the king reside, they would say to the South, where the capital is at (perhaps as an act of defiance against the Qing monarchy or perhaps they felt that Viet monarchy was a much closer kin to their former Ming than the ruling Qing). Therefore, the name Kinh is still used to this day to refer to Vietnamese living in China. Nevertheless, this views may have changed as the influences of the Qing monarchy and power spread throughout China.
> 
> As I know today, traveling through Vietnam, southern Vietnamese refer to northern Vietnamese as "Bắc Kỳ" (Northern Flag) and Vietnamese people refer to themselves as "người Việt" to foreigners and use "người Kinh" to differ themselves from the ethnic minorities in Vietnam.


I don´t have the info when the term "kinh" came into existence, and still have to search a bit more to find out. kinh is most likely derived by jing in chinese: Beijing (northern capigtal), Nanjing (southern capital).

basically the vietnamese people consist of 86% of ethnic kinh as majority and 14% of the ethnics as minority (54 groups such as Tay, Tai, Hmong, Hoa, Khmer, Nung, and many others).

who are the kinh people?

yes, Kinh means capital, here Hanoi city or more precise the Red river delta. the region is the place when the first Vietnamese settled down and cultivated the land. Unlike the Kinh, many other ethnics live in mountainous regions. So the kinh distinguish themselves from others by geographic locations. the Kinh live mainly in cities and coastal regions.






apart from that, the Kinh have different cultures and custom than other ethnics. so basically Kinh are sinized people. I understand, the recent genetic study of Harvard medical school shows the Kinh´s ancestors originated from Taiwan. our forefathers came to the present day Vietnam before 5,000 years ago. according to this study, the likelyhood is extremely high, the Taiwanese came as seafather and settled down in the red river delta. so Kinh people have chinese roots.
Austronesien: Südseebewohner: Aus Taiwan über Vietnam nach Polynesien? - Spektrum der Wissenschaft

Also, the DNA study of the hospital Saint-Louis in Paris confirmed the assumption that the Vietnamese population has evolved from the tai/Indonesian and the southern Chinese population.
Vietnamesen – Wikipedia

some studies show a different picture. the first Vietnamese originated from austronesians. they came from the western pacific. some genetic research show the Viet people have mixed with the mongolians, who came as settlers to Vietnam.

so, we don´t know for 100 per cent. Perhaps more future researches can bring more light into this.

Yes, the people of Gin/Jing;京 is Vietnamese migrants, who came to China hundreds of year ago. they belong to one of the recognised minorities in China.
China Wiki – The free encyclopedia on China, china.org.cn





yes, you are right at the last part. "Bắc Kỳ" is northerner.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> You've been busted already on your claims on wenhua etc,the Japanese used Chinese Hanzi with the same meaning in Chinese languages and merely combined them.
> 
> 
> You should read "A History of the Vietnamese" ,there were regionalism tensions amongst Sinicized Red River elites and the unsincized Thanh Hoa elites. While Sun Yixian's ancestors were not treated as Zhuang and had the same culture as their neighbors.
> 
> *Tell me when did Kinh even apply to Le Loi*,an analogy would be calling Qin Shihuang a Han.
> 
> The modern day meaning of Han already coalesced during the Ming while the first time it was used as an ethonym was during the Northern Wei while Kinh was abandoned during the Nguyen and revived during modern times.
> 
> 
> They are still considered Han.


I believe the term/concept kinh did not exist when Le Loi reigned Vietnam. and there is no doubt he is vietnamese.
or do you think he is chinese?


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## Snomannen

悠远小城岁月静好 风景独特的越南会安 -- Vietnam+ (VietnamPlus) --- 01/02/2014

Is Ao Dai really originally based on the design from Qipao?


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> 悠远小城岁月静好 风景独特的越南会安 -- Vietnam+ (VietnamPlus) --- 01/02/2014
> 
> Is Ao Dai really originally based on the design from Qipao?


on chinese Qipao





and vietnamese _Áo tứ thân (4-part dress)_

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## East Lake

dichoi said:


> It is nothing wrong bro, when we could borrow some word or many words from other people in the world. It is normal life as we are human being.
> 
> I just answered ( trolled ) on you guy when he said that in the past Han Zi is official used in Vietnam and in Nguyễn Dynasty era our historian labeled Kinh people is Han, it mean culturally Viets are Han Chinese.
> 
> You nick is Xi Hu in Jie Jiang, do you come from *浙江省 ?*



Trolled? Meaning? I don't know about that, sorry.
西湖 is Western Lake. 东湖 is East Lake. My family come from 山东. You know a little bit Chinese? It's very good!


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## Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I do have a question for the Vietnamese members here: @xesy , @Viet , @dichoi , @Battle of Bach Dang River , @BoQ77 --
> 
> During Annam / Dai Viet's expansion to the south, was there a policy by the Sovreigns in Annam / Dai Viet to conquer not just Champa (Southern Vietnam), but also what is now present day Cambodia, and Laos? I wonder what were the factors that prevented the Vietnamese from completely annexing the Kingdom of Lovek (Cambodia) and the Kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos). Do you attribute this to the Siamese / Ayudhaya ?


as far as I know we had no real plan to completely annex Laos and Cambodia.

from the strategic perspective, we need both Laos and Cambodia as buffer states against possible attacks/invasions from China and Thailand. our western flank. Besides, China would answer with a war if we attempted to annex these Kingdoms. After the 3rd Vietnam-Siam war, Cambodia was put under joint Vietnam-Thailand protection. I read there was indeed a plan to cut Cambodia into two pieces, one half goes to Vietnam and the other half to the Thai. 

the invasion of colonial power France into Vietnam sabotaged the annexation.



East Lake said:


> Trolled? Meaning? I don't know about that, sorry.
> 西湖 is Western Lake. 东湖 is East Lake. My family come from 山东. You know a little bit Chinese? It's very good!


oh...you come from Shandong. I wonder why you don´t pick country flags?
welcome to the forum, bro.


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## xesy

Viet said:


> as far as I know we had no real plan to completely annex Laos and Cambodia.
> 
> from the strategic perspective, we need both Laos and Cambodia as buffer states against possible attacks/invasions from China and Thailand. our western flank. Besides, China would answer with a war if we attempted to annex these Kingdoms. After the 3rd Vietnam-Siam war, Cambodia was put under joint Vietnam-Thailand protection. I read there was indeed a plan to cut Cambodia into two pieces, one half goes to Vietnam and the other half to the Thai.
> 
> the invasion of colonial power France into Vietnam sabotaged the annexation.


Yo, have you heard of Cambodian extremists burned VN flag in front of VNese embassy and demanded VN to return most of South Vietnam, which they called Khmer Khrom, icluding the Mekong River Delta and Saigon city? Now that's what I call ungrateful.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> on chinese Qipao
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and vietnamese _Áo tứ thân (4-part dress)_


Vietnamese official website (Chinese vision) said that Ao Dai is origionally from Qipao.


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## xesy

KirovAirship said:


> Vietnamese official website (Chinese vision) said that Ao Dai is origionally from Qipao.


Did you mean wikipedia? VNese version states "No one knows exactly when the ancient Ao Dai was created and how it looked like because of the lack of historical records and no one has really done in-dept researches".


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Vietnamese official website (Chinese vision) said that Ao Dai is origionally from Qipao.


the designer took the idea of qipao. the result is not the same dress. qipao is more sexy, while ao dai covers more the body. ao tu than is Vietnam centuries old tradional dress. I don´t know when qipao came into existence.

qipao



is

ao dai






ao thu than

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## Snomannen

xesy said:


> Did you mean wikipedia? VNese version states "No one knows exactly when the ancient Ao Dai was created and how it looked like because of the lack of historical records and no one has really done in-dept researches".


Nope, the link I posed is an official Vietnamese website.


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## East Lake

Viet said:


> the designer took the idea of qipao. the result is not the same dress. qipao is more sexy, while ao dai covers more the body. ao tu than is Vietnam centuries old tradional dress. I don´t know when qipao came into existence.



I thought the Vietnamese national dress was made earlier than the Qipao? 

The modern Qipao was created after the fall of the Qing Dynasty.


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## BoQ77

underwear

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## EastSea

Ao dai Vietnam from 19 century.

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## Aepsilons

Thank You @Viet and @xesy


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## Grand Historian

SimonTagawa said:


> The story goes that during the 17th-19th century, in China, if you were to ask a non-Manchus where the king reside, they would say to the South, where the capital is at (perhaps as an act of defiance against the Qing monarchy or perhaps they felt that Viet monarchy was a much closer kin to their former Ming than the ruling Qing). Therefore, the name Kinh is still used to this day to refer to Vietnamese living in China. Nevertheless, this views may have changed as the influences of the Qing monarchy and power spread throughout China.


Ming loyalists and the Han of China never recognized Vietnamese rulers as their suzerain or their representative.



Viet said:


> I believe the term/concept kinh did not exist when Le Loi reigned Vietnam. and there is no doubt he is vietnamese.
> or do you think he is chinese?


He's the farthest thing from being a Chinese,as the region and the men that followed him were largely unsinicized.

I don't see a problem with calling him Vietnamese,what I do have a problem with is anachronistically labeling him as Kinh.

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## Battle of Bach Dang River

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I do have a question for the Vietnamese members here: @xesy , @Viet , @dichoi , @Battle of Bach Dang River , @BoQ77 --
> 
> During Annam / Dai Viet's expansion to the south, was there a policy by the Sovreigns in Annam / Dai Viet to conquer not just Champa (Southern Vietnam), but also what is now present day Cambodia, and Laos? I wonder what were the factors that prevented the Vietnamese from completely annexing the Kingdom of Lovek (Cambodia) and the Kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos). Do you attribute this to the Siamese / Ayudhaya ?



1. Champa had allied with the chinese, it had attacked regularly Dai Viet. This made the determination of the Vietnamese to conquest of Champa. Annexing Champa that was the result of this conquest.

2. Vietnamese people had moved to the south *before* the Vietnamese feudal state set the control over the southern land today that is the South. During this event, without *any resistance* or *any war* with any nation. Or I missed understanding about this war?

Thank for your question @Nihonjin1051

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## Aepsilons

Battle of Bach Dang River said:


> 1. Champa had allied with the chinese, it had attacked regularly Dai Viet. This made the determination of the Vietnamese to conquest of Champa. Annexing Champa that was the result of this conquest.
> 
> 2. Vietnamese people had moved to the south *before* the Vietnamese feudal state set the control over the southern land today that is the South. During this event, without *any resistance* or *any war* with any nation. Or I missed understanding about this war?
> 
> Thank for your question @Nihonjin1051




Thanks for the explanation @Battle of Bach Dang River


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## SimonTagawa

Viet said:


> I don´t have the info when the term "kinh" came into existence, and still have to search a bit more to find out. kinh is most likely derived by jing in chinese: Beijing (northern capigtal), Nanjing (southern capital).
> 
> basically the vietnamese people consist of 86% of ethnic kinh as majority and 14% of the ethnics as minority (54 groups such as Tay, Tai, Hmong, Hoa, Khmer, Nung, and many others).
> 
> who are the kinh people?
> 
> yes, Kinh means capital, here Hanoi city or more precise the Red river delta. the region is the place when the first Vietnamese settled down and cultivated the land. Unlike the Kinh, many other ethnics live in mountainous regions. So the kinh distinguish themselves from others by geographic locations. the Kinh live mainly in cities and coastal regions.
> 
> apart from that, the Kinh have different cultures and custom than other ethnics. so basically Kinh are sinized people. I understand, the recent genetic study of Harvard medical school shows the Kinh´s ancestors originated from Taiwan. our forefathers came to the present day Vietnam before 5,000 years ago. according to this study, the likelyhood is extremely high, the Taiwanese came as seafather and settled down in the red river delta. so Kinh people have chinese roots.
> 
> Also, the DNA study of the hospital Saint-Louis in Paris confirmed the assumption that the Vietnamese population has evolved from the tai/Indonesian and the southern Chinese population.
> 
> some studies show a different picture. the first Vietnamese originated from austronesians. they came from the western pacific. some genetic research show the Viet people have mixed with the mongolians, who came as settlers to Vietnam.
> 
> so, we don´t know for 100 per cent. Perhaps more future researches can bring more light into this.
> 
> Yes, the people of Gin/Jing;京 is Vietnamese migrants, who came to China hundreds of year ago. they belong to one of the recognised minorities in China.
> 
> yes, you are right at the last part. "Bắc Kỳ" is northerner.


Thank you, Viet, for the in depth reply. Greatly appreciated.

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## Brainsucker

mrfly911 said:


> Hakka means guest



Well, yes. Hakka means guest.


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> You've been busted already on your claims on wenhua etc,the Japanese used Chinese Hanzi with the same meaning in Chinese languages and merely combined them.



Japanese did a combination, it has a new terminology which was not existed in Chinese.



Grand Historian said:


> You should read "A History of the Vietnamese" ,there were regionalism tensions amongst Sinicized Red River elites and the unsincized Thanh Hoa elites. While Sun Yixian's ancestors were not treated as Zhuang and had the same culture as their neighbors.
> Tell me when did Kinh even apply to Le Loi,an analogy would be calling Qin Shihuang a Han.
> The modern day meaning of Han already coalesced during the Ming while the first time it was used as an ethonym was during the Northern Wei while Kinh was abandoned during the Nguyen and revived during modern times.



What does a " sinized Red River " do you mean ?

I know that Peking peopele don't like Shanghai People. Does it mean that Peking or Hanzhong people is more Manchurized than Shanghai people ?

Qin Shihuang created and united China, It was civil war. Le Loi won on Ming Dynasty Invaders and regained Independence of Vietnam from China. It is two different story.




East Lake said:


> Trolled? Meaning? I don't know about that, sorry.
> 西湖 is Western Lake. 东湖 is East Lake. My family come from 山东. You know a little bit Chinese? It's very good!



Oh, it is my mistake, I think East Lake is in opposite meaning of West Lake. 西湖 is very famous place for tourism destination. To be honest I dont know about 东湖 in 山东

I can speak little bit Chinese, I would like to type some Chinese characters here, for that it is not be so fast forgotten.

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## SimonTagawa

Grand Historian said:


> Ming loyalists and the Han of China never recognized Vietnamese rulers as their suzerain or their representative.


Thank you for your reply. I apologize if I may have offended you or anyone in this forum with my previous post. I am only seeking for answers.

Initially, when I heard of this, I thought perhaps there were more heirs to the Ming's throne beside 朱由崧 of Southern Ming, which might have seek refuge under the Later Le monarch and Trinh Lord's protection_. _This is because most members of the Ming royal family fled south. 

Please correct me if I am wrong. If I remember correctly, there were several heroic resistance in southern China against the Qing after the fall of Ming in 1644 and after 朱由崧's execution in the Qing's court in 1646. 

Many Ming Prince held court in Fuzhou and Guangdong protected and supported by courageously loyal Ming's Generals as the Qing army moves further south to conquer. However, without further military supports, Ming imperial family members were written out of history shortly after, there would be no records of their royal ties or claim to the Ming dynasty lineage after this calamity. Nevertheless, 朱 remains as one of the most prominent family name in China to this day.

In Vietnamese history, 朱 family name rose to fame as a notable military family employed by the Nguyen Lord in the 1700s. Most notable was 朱文接 (Châu Văn Tiếp) whom aided his lord Nguyễn Phúc Ánh to the throne.

The 朱 family name is also found in Korea, mainly in the southern part and across the globe.

May I dare ask if there are any connections?

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> Japanese did a combination, it has a new terminology which was not existed in Chinese.


You claimed 文化 was of Japanese origin and subsequently you've been busted by 2 members,now you shift your goalposts that Japanese used a combination.



dichoi said:


> What does a " sinized Red River " do you mean ?
> 
> I know that Peking peopele don't like Shanghai People. Does it mean that Peking or Hanzhong people is more Manchurized than Shanghai people ?
> 
> Qin Shihuang created and united China, It was civil war. Le Loi won on Ming Dynasty Invaders and regained Independence of Vietnam from China. It is two different story.


Sinicized means following Chinese culture,while the Red River elites are the nobles/scholars of the Hanoi area.

Beijing and Shanghai people don't like each other but not to the point of civil war they more or less consider themselves Han (doesn't mean they consider each other kin but that's another story) and practice Chinese culture albeit a regional one.

You don't seem to understand my point,you don't just apply labels anachronistically, ie you don't label Buddha a Nepalese/Indian as those ethnicties didn't exist back then and neither do you call Qin Shihuang a Han or Le Loi a Kinh.


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## Grand Historian

SimonTagawa said:


> Thank you for your reply. I apologize if I may have offended you or anyone in this forum with my previous post. I am only seeking for answers.
> 
> Initially, when I heard of this, I thought perhaps there were more heirs to the Ming's throne beside 朱由崧 of Southern Ming, which might have seek refuge under the Later Le monarch and Trinh Lord's protection_. _This is because most members of the Ming royal family fled south.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong. If I remember correctly, there were several heroic resistance in southern China against the Qing after the fall of Ming in 1644 and after 朱由崧's execution in the Qing's court in 1646.
> 
> Many Ming Prince held court in Fuzhou and Guangdong protected and supported by courageously loyal Ming's Generals as the Qing army moves further south to conquer. However, without further military supports, Ming imperial family members were written out of history shortly after, there would be no records of their royal ties or claim to the Ming dynasty lineage after this calamity. Nevertheless, 朱 remains as one of the most prominent family name in China to this day.
> 
> In Vietnamese history, 朱 family name rose to fame as a notable military family employed by the Nguyen Lord in the 1700s. Most notable was 朱文接 (Châu Văn Tiếp) whom aided his lord Nguyễn Phúc Ánh to the throne.
> 
> The 朱 family name is also found in Korea, mainly in the southern part and across the globe.
> 
> May I dare ask if there are any connections?


It would be statistically impossible for the Qing to wipe out every direct male descendant of Zhu Yuanzhang(朱元璋) and neither did every living descendant claim the imperial throne.

There's a reason why they are called Ming pretenders they were nothing more than petty warlords who sought to use the Zhu name as a rallying point,ie Liu Bei did the same thing when Eastern Han fell its not exactly uncommon.

Even common peasants such as Zhu Yigui(朱一貴) were able to use the Zhu surname to initiate a rebellion.

Zhu isn't a rare surname and it existed prior to the Ming,the Qing wouldn't have anything to gain if they massacred everyone with the surname Zhu other than the enmity of the common people.

Zhu Guozi(朱國治) and many other men that had the imperial surname, loyally served the Qing until their death.

My mother's side claims descent from Liu Bang(劉邦) out of virtue of sharing the same surname is this true?

There's no way of proving or disproving it,however my point is people like to have a prestigious lineage and common surnames such as Liu,Li,Zhao,Zhu etc are able to embellish their genealogical records.

Whatever the case Nguyen rulers had the surname Ruan so why would Ming loyalists or average Han Chinese view them as their sovereign?

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## SimonTagawa

Huaren said:


> They are not the only one with such obsession, remember the tales from Korea and propaganda from Japan? They are always eager to take any oppertunity to claim chinese heritages to call themselves the true "heir" or "origin". Especially when china had fallout with babarians and when some chinese citizens took refuge in their land, suddently the rest of chinese civilization were to be considered extinct, and voila we got some new heir(s). They have never realized the resilience of chinese civilization (where their own pride as nation is formed after), even if they did they would refuse to acknowledge it and continued to fool themselves.
> However I see their obsession with China as compliment, although a bit annoying.


By saying "China" do you mean, an anglicized term for Cathay/Catai used by Portuguese explorers? Cathay or China is derived from the name Khitan (契丹), which was used at the time, and, was publicized by Marco Polo in his book to refer to the people of Liao Dynasty who ruled what is known today as Northern China, then, yes my friend, they are related to Go Joseon (Koreans). Both Khitan and Korean originated from Baekdu Mountain. People living south of Liao were referred by Marco Polo in his book as "Manji" (Barbarians). I am glad you are flattered by this.

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## Grand Historian

SimonTagawa said:


> By saying "China" do you mean, an anglicized term for Cathay/Catai used by Portuguese explorers? Cathay or China is derived from the name Khitan (契丹), which was used at the time, and, was publicized by Marco Polo in his book to refer to the people of Liao Dynasty who ruled what is known today as Northern China, then, yes my friend, they are related to Go Joseon (Koreans). Both Khitan and Korean originated from Baekdu Mountain. People living south of Liao were referred by Marco Polo in his book as "Manji" (Barbarians). I am glad you are flattered by this.


Chaoxian was originally a Zhou vassal state that was ruled by Jizi's descendants,which eventually reached Northern Korea due to pressures by Yan.

While the Gojoseon that nationalist Koreans picture today which supposedly incorporated Manchuria,the Shandong peninsula and all of Korea is nothing more than fantasy.

The Khitans,Jurchens,Xianbei,Xiongnu etc were never part of the non existent Gojoseon polity.

Baekdu mountian is holy to nomadic tribes not Koreans,as late as the Joseon dynasty it was labeled as a mountain revered by barbarians with minimal descriptions,it was only due the revisionism by Sin Chaeho that today's Koreans worship it.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> You claimed 文化 was of Japanese origin and subsequently you've been busted by 2 members,now you shift your goalposts that Japanese used a combination.



I think you have problem with your English to understand me. 文 and 化 is chinese word, but combination word 文化 is created by Japanese. Today chinese borrowed back 文化 from Japanese.



Grand Historian said:


> Sinicized means following Chinese culture,while the Red River elites are the nobles/scholars of the Hanoi area.



Do you think Thanh Hoa people were not "sinized" ?

I remind you that both our History Book 大越史略 and *大越史記全書 *is written by Thanh Hoa People. 大越史略 is written by Le Van Huu 黎文休, *大越史記全書 *is written by Ngo Si Lien 吳士連, both came from Thanh Hoa.

Đình, former Le, Nguyễn Dynasty founded by Thanh Hoa people. Thanh Hoa people is civilized like Hanoi/Red river delta people.



Grand Historian said:


> Beijing and Shanghai people don't like each other but not to the point of civil war they more or less consider themselves Han (doesn't mean they consider each other kin but that's another story) and practice Chinese culture albeit a regional one.



Both Thanglong/Hanoi and Thanh Hoa nobles/scholars were Viets too, shared same tradition culture, costom, language and studied Han Zi from childhood in home town and taken also on state exam in Tonkin too.



Grand Historian said:


> You don't seem to understand my point,you don't just apply labels anachronistically, ie you don't label Buddha a Nepalese/Indian as those ethnicties didn't exist back then and neither do you call Qin Shihuang a Han or Le Loi a Kinh.



What do you mean about Qin Shihuang ? he is son of La Puvi 吕不韦 from 趙國 , there is native land of Han people. It is clear that Qin Shihuang was Han Chinese.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> I think you have problem with your English to understand me. 文 and 化 is chinese word, but combination word 文化 is created by Japanese. Today chinese borrowed back 文化 from Japanese.


Read Kirov Airship or Huaren's post 文化 already was used by the Han dynasty it wasn't a Japanese invention as you claim.



dichoi said:


> Do you think Thanh Hoa people were not "sinized" ?
> 
> I remind you that both our History Book 大越史略 and *大越史記全書 *is written by Thanh Hoa People. 大越史略 is written by Le Van Huu 黎文休, *大越史記全書 *is written by Ngo Si Lien 吳士連, both came from Thanh Hoa.
> 
> Đình, former Le, Nguyễn Dynasty founded by Thanh Hoa people. Thanh Hoa people is civilized like Hanoi/Red river delta people.


They were clearly less Sinicized than the Red River elites(read the works of the scholars I mentioned),the Binh Ngo dai cao was applied to Red River delta elites.



dichoi said:


> Both Thanglong/Hanoi and Thanh Hoa nobles/scholars were Viets too, shared same tradition culture, costom, language and studied Han Zi from childhood in home town and taken also on state exam in Tonkin too.


Again regionalists tensions were boiling and there wasn't a united Vietnamese identity despite the propaganda nowadays.



dichoi said:


> What do you mean about Qin Shihuang ? he is son of La Puvi 吕不韦 from 趙國 , there is native land of Han people. It is clear that Qin Shihuang was Han Chinese.


How can Qin Shihuang be Han Chinese if Han Chinese was used as an ethnoym starting from Northern Wei?

There is no evidence he's the son of Lu Buwei.

You clearly don't understand what anachronism is,again is Buddha Nepalese/Indian when none of these concepts were in state at the time of his birth?

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## SimonTagawa

Grand Historian said:


> Chaoxian was originally a Zhou vassal state that was ruled by Jizi's descendants,which eventually reached Northern Korea due to pressures by Yan.
> 
> While the Gojoseon that nationalist Koreans picture today which supposedly incorporated Manchuria,the Shandong peninsula and all of Korea is nothing more than fantasy.
> 
> The Khitans,Jurchens,Xianbei,Xiongnu etc were never part of the non existent Gojoseon polity.
> 
> Baekdu mountian is holy to nomadic tribes not Koreans,as late as the Joseon dynasty it was labeled as a mountain revered by barbarians with minimal descriptions,it was only due the revisionism by Sin Chaeho that today's Koreans worship it.





Grand Historian said:


> Chaoxian was originally a Zhou vassal state that was ruled by Jizi's descendants,which eventually reached Northern Korea due to pressures by Yan.
> 
> While the Gojoseon that nationalist Koreans picture today which supposedly incorporated Manchuria,the Shandong peninsula and all of Korea is nothing more than fantasy.
> 
> The Khitans,Jurchens,Xianbei,Xiongnu etc were never part of the non existent Gojoseon polity.
> 
> Baekdu mountian is holy to nomadic tribes not Koreans,as late as the Joseon dynasty it was labeled as a mountain revered by barbarians with minimal descriptions,it was only due the revisionism by Sin Chaeho that today's Koreans worship it.



History has shown us that one ethnicity would often mislabel another as "barbarian" through lack of knowledge, understanding and appreciation for that culture, simply because the custom differ from their known norms. "Manji" is an example of this given by Marco Polo.

It is common for archeologist and historians to look at other sites beside their own country in search of lost ancient history. Greek for example, often look for Ancient Greek sites in Turkey. Are they claiming to be Turkish? Of course not.

Common people, like you and I, are interested and curious in such studies as well. This is why we are here in this forum to see others opinions and to share ours. Many Kakyō (華僑) look back to China in search of their lost heritage, this is normal. After so many generations living overseas, many Kakyō thinks and acts more like the people in their adopted country than they are as 華人. With that said, it is not surprising for Chaoxian-zu and Hánguó-rén to find their connections. 

We human don't know for certain where we all originated from. It is our quest, a long enduring curiosity to search for clues and answers. Many look through ancient text, some look to the stars, while few dig through ancient soils. Sometimes our speculations are wrong. However, by doing so, we open the door for other possibilities and understanding. 

By the way, I am actually Vietnamese, my wife is Han-Chinese, my adopted son is Japanese.

My time here was very educational. Thank you all for your posts and replies.

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## Grand Historian

SimonTagawa said:


> History has shown us that one ethnicity would often mislabel another as "barbarian" through lack of knowledge, understanding and appreciation for that culture, simply because the custom differ from their known norms. "Manji" is an example of this given by Marco Polo.


I agree contempt breeds ignorance,however my point was the Joseon era Koreans didn't view Jurchens as their own despite what what Korean nationalists today are desperately claiming Jin and Qing as Korean to boost their own ego.



SimonTagawa said:


> It is common for archeologist and historians to look at other sites beside their own country in search of lost ancient history. Greek for example, often look for Ancient Greek sites in Turkey. Are they claiming to be Turkish? Of course not.


The problem is that nationalistic Koreans make ridiculous claims that require a suspension of logic and distortion of historical sources to achieve their goal.

In the eyes of many Chinese the Koreans are trying to usurp the cultural/civilizational origin of East Asia from China to Korea.



SimonTagawa said:


> We human don't know for certain where we all originated from. It is our quest, a long enduring curiosity to search for clues and answers. Many look through ancient text, some look to the stars, while few dig through ancient soils. Sometimes our speculations are wrong. However, by doing so, we open the door for other possibilities and understanding.


Its proven that are ancestors originate from the continent of Africa,however what the Koreans are doing is like saying the Africans originated from the Chinese.

Likewise what nationalistic Koreans are doing today is shameless,they twist the Altaic hypothesis by claiming that all other Altaic speakers ie Mongols,Manchus etc originated from Gojoseon therefore they are Korean,cherrypick quotes out of Chinese books to show that they "owned" lands in today's China,stress a narrative that they are "pure" and that Koreaness already existed in prehistoric times,making claims that defy linguistics Jusen = Joseon,even to the insane ie insisting that Shang,Yan,Xianbei/Xiongnu states,Liao,Jin,Yuan,Qing etc are all Korean and that Chinese somehow rewrote history about their Korean conquerors.

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## SimonTagawa

Grand Historian said:


> I agree contempt breeds ignorance,however my point was the Joseon era Koreans didn't view Jurchens as their own despite what what Korean nationalists today are desperately claiming Jin and Qing as Korean to boost their own ego.
> 
> 
> The problem is that nationalistic Koreans make ridiculous claims that require a suspension of logic and distortion of historical sources to achieve their goal.
> 
> In the eyes of many Chinese the Koreans are trying to usurp the cultural/civilizational origin of East Asia from China to Korea.
> 
> 
> Its proven that are ancestors originate from the continent of Africa,however what the Koreans are doing is like saying the Africans originated from the Chinese.
> 
> Likewise what nationalistic Koreans are doing today is shameless,they twist the Altaic hypothesis by claiming that all other Altaic speakers ie Mongols,Manchus etc originated from Gojoseon therefore they are Korean,cherrypick quotes out of Chinese books to show that they "owned" lands in today's China,stress a narrative that they are "pure" and that Koreaness already existed in prehistoric times,making claims that defy linguistics Jusen = Joseon,even to the insane ie insisting that Shang,Yan,Xianbei/Xiongnu states,Liao,Jin,Yuan,Qing etc are all Korean and that Chinese somehow rewrote history about their Korean conquerors.



When reading History, one must keep in mind that ancient history was written in favor of members of the royal family he served. Historians write down facts with a knife across their neck (just a figure of speech). Modern history is written in favor of the majority of the land, based on facts gathered from different angles regarding the event. Yet, if the event(s) is too controversial for the public or too sensitivity to others ethnicity living within its borders, it will only be briefly mentioned in a few sentences or may not be included in the final draft. Although, the information may pop up in bookstores, sold only as a controversial or leisure reading book that either gets high ratings or be ignored entirely. Like a good modern news reporter, great Historians favors no boundaries. He tells it as it is and record as true to the events that occurred as humanly possible; with facts from different sides. But by doing so, they would risk their career and possible criticism from the public, ending up being just a writer under another pen name.

This is not a subject of discussion for this thread. Perhaps you should start another discussion topic regarding your concerns about Korea's propaganda and seek for facts, and views from the Korean and others.

Best wishes to your endeavor.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> Read Kirov Airship or Huaren's post 文化 already was used by the Han dynasty it wasn't a Japanese invention as you claim.



In Han dynasty, chinese didn't have a idea about "Culture", this is modern terminology came from western people. It focused on ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. Culture is like fashion is changed time to time to meet requirements of human kind in each society in process of development.

when in the past Chinese said '"文化不改", it is conflicted with modern idea of term "culture". the term in Han Zi "文化不改" could be translated in to English that " What is written, it can not change". It got nothing to do with "Culture" in modern concept.



> They were clearly less Sinicized than the Red River elites(read the works of the scholars I mentioned),the Binh Ngo dai cao was applied to Red River delta elites. Again regionalists tensions were boiling and there wasn't a united Vietnamese identity despite the propaganda nowadays..



In reality, Le Loi aproved such Annoucement "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" only. This document is written by Nguyễn Trãi (阮廌), (1380–1442). He was an illustrious Vietnamese Confucian scholar came from Red River Delta. Lê Lợi didn't cared about tension should be done by such Viet Jian, traitors, defectors. They should been escaped to China with Ming Dynasty' army.

The purpose of announce "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" to reaffirm the independence of Dai Viet.



> How can Qin Shihuang be Han Chinese if Han Chinese was used as an ethnoym starting from Northern Wei?
> There is no evidence he's the son of Lu Buwei.



Wei Guo territory is today part of He Bei province China's, there is native land òf Han Chinese.

You have to read Shiji 史記/史记, bro. Lu Buwei was very famous person in history of China when he did a policy bussiness, proposed his wife as gift to the Jin Emperor.



> You clearly don't understand what anachronism is,again is Buddha Nepalese/Indian when none of these concepts were in state at the time of his birth?



Buddha is Nepalese, he was a prince (traditionally dated 563–483 BCE), who later renounced his status to lead an ascetic life and came to be known as the Buddha. By 250 BCE, the southern regions came under the influence of the northern India Kingdoms, and Nepal later on became a nominal vassal state of India.

Today, in Vietnam people say that historically Buddha is came from Nepal, or India or correctly from India Continent. It is same story about Qin Xihuang, he was Chinese ( then word Jin or Qin is an origin root of word "China" is to be used popular in the world today) or more correctly: he was Han Chinese. Han Chinese is 92 % of population of China.

The different is that Nepal become independent state, Qin was vassal state of Zhou and reunited China under rule of Qin Emperor.

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## Grand Historian

SimonTagawa said:


> When reading History, one must keep in mind that ancient history was written in favor of members of the royal family he served. Historians write down facts with a knife across their neck (just a figure of speech). Modern history is written in favor of the majority of the land, based on facts gathered from different angles regarding the event. Yet, if the event(s) is too controversial for the public or too sensitivity to others ethnicity living within its borders, it will only be briefly mentioned in a few sentences or may not be included in the final draft. Although, the information may pop up in bookstores, sold only as a controversial or leisure reading book that either gets high ratings or be ignored entirely. Like a good modern news reporter, great Historians favors no boundaries. He tells it as it is and record as true to the events that occurred as humanly possible; with facts from different sides. But by doing so, they would risk their career and possible criticism from the public, ending up being just a writer under another pen name.
> 
> This is not a subject of discussion for this thread. Perhaps you should start another discussion topic regarding your concerns about Korea's propaganda and seek for facts, and views from the Korean and others.
> 
> Best wishes to your endeavor.


If you actually believe in Korean nationalist historiography then so be it.

Keep in mind it was you that brought up the Khitans "relationship" with the Koreans.

They typical excuse is that the Chinese of Japanese burnt the glorious history of the Koreans and trying to hide the fact that Korean were the rulers of East Asia.

No, great historians don't spend their times on pseudo history,why do you think works written on the "Black" Egyptians,Chinese discovering the Americas,or even Korean Gojoseon are scorned by the international community?

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> In Han dynasty, chinese didn't have a idea about "Culture", this is modern terminology came from western people. It focused on ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. Culture is like fashion is changed time to time to meet requirements of human kind in each society in process of development.
> 
> when in the past Chinese said '"文化不改", it is conflicted with modern idea of term "culture". the term in Han Zi "文化不改" could be translated in to English that " What is written, it can not change". It got nothing to do with "Culture" in modern concept.


You clearly haven't read KirovAirship or Huaren's posts your claim has already been debunked and you are just trying to shift goalposts.



dichoi said:


> In reality, Le Loi aproved such Annoucement "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" only. This document is written by Nguyễn Trãi (阮廌), (1380–1442). He was an illustrious Vietnamese Confucian scholar came from Red River Delta. Lê Lợi didn't cared about tension should be done by such Viet Jian, traitors, defectors. They should been escaped to China with Ming Dynasty' army.
> 
> The purpose of announce "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" to reaffirm the independence of Dai Viet.


No it didn't Le Minh Khai has clearly shown that it was addressed to the Vietnamese "traitors",a declaration of independence didn't even exist in Classical Chinese so all you are doing is twisting the original.



dichoi said:


> Wei Guo territory is today part of He Bei province China's, there is native land òf Han Chinese.
> 
> You have to read Shiji 史記/史记, bro. Lu Buwei was very famous person in history of China when he did a policy bussiness, proposed his wife as gift to the Jin Emperor.


Do you or do you not understand what anachronism is?

*1:* an error in chronology; _especially_ *:* a chronological misplacing of persons, events, objects, or customs in regard to each other

*2:* a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place;_especially_ *:* one from a former age that is incongruous in the present

*3:* the state or condition of being chronologically out of place
Anachronism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

The concept of Han Chinese couldn't have existed back then as Hanzhong was a foreign place to the natives of the central plains.

You don't seem to understand that sources about Qin Shihuang were highly unflattering and criticizing of his persona and his empire so including a line of his supposed illegitimacy was to validate that Tian punished his rule.

Unless you have DNA of King Zhuangxiang,Qin Shihuang and Lu Buwei your claim holds no merit.




dichoi said:


> Buddha is Nepalese, he was a prince (traditionally dated 563–483 BCE), who later renounced his status to lead an ascetic life and came to be known as the Buddha. By 250 BCE, the southern regions came under the influence of the northern India Kingdoms, and Nepal later on became a nominal vassal state of India.
> 
> Today, in Vietnam people say that historically Buddha is came from Nepal, or India or correctly from India Continent. It is same story about Qin Xihuang, he was Chinese ( then word Jin or Qin is an origin root of word "China" is to be used popular in the world today) or more correctly: he was Han Chinese. Han Chinese is 92 % of population of China.
> 
> The different is that Nepal become independent state, Qin was vassal state of Zhou and reunited China under rule of Qin Emperor.


Again anachronism,we don't call Confucius a resident of the People's Republic of China the same reason why Buddha isn't from the Republic of India or Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal.

If you cannot grasp this basic concept,then there's nothing left more me to say.

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## SimonTagawa

dichoi said:


> In Han dynasty, chinese didn't have a idea about "Culture", this is modern terminology came from western people. It focused on ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. Culture is like fashion is changed time to time to meet requirements of human kind in each society in process of development.
> 
> when in the past Chinese said '"文化不改",
> 
> Buddha is Nepalese, he was a prince (traditionally dated 563–483 BCE), who later renounced his status to lead an ascetic life and came to be known as the Buddha. By 250 BCE, the southern regions came under the influence of the northern India Kingdoms, and Nepal later on became a nominal vassal state of India.
> 
> Today, in Vietnam people say that historically Buddha is came from Nepal, or India or correctly from India Continent. It is same story about Qin Xihuang, he was Chinese ( then word Jin or Qin is an origin root of word "China" is to be used popular in the world today) or more correctly: he was Han Chinese. Han Chinese is 92 % of population of China.
> 
> The different is that Nepal become independent state, Qin was vassal state of Zhou and reunited China under rule of Qin Emperor.





dichoi said:


> In Han dynasty, chinese didn't have a idea about "Culture", this is modern terminology came from western people. It focused on ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. Culture is like fashion is changed time to time to meet requirements of human kind in each society in process of development.
> 
> when in the past Chinese said '"文化不改", it is conflicted with modern idea of term "culture". the term in Han Zi "文化不改" could be translated in to English that " What is written, it can not change". It got nothing to do with "Culture" in modern concept.
> 
> 
> 
> In reality, Le Loi aproved such Annoucement "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" only. This document is written by Nguyễn Trãi (阮廌), (1380–1442). He was an illustrious Vietnamese Confucian scholar came from Red River Delta. Lê Lợi didn't cared about tension should be done by such Viet Jian, traitors, defectors. They should been escaped to China with Ming Dynasty' army.
> 
> The purpose of announce "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" to reaffirm the independence of Dai Viet.
> 
> 
> 
> Wei Guo territory is today part of He Bei province China's, there is native land òf Han Chinese.
> 
> You have to read Shiji 史記/史记, bro. Lu Buwei was very famous person in history of China when he did a policy bussiness, proposed his wife as gift to the Jin Emperor.
> 
> 
> 
> Buddha is Nepalese, he was a prince (traditionally dated 563–483 BCE), who later renounced his status to lead an ascetic life and came to be known as the Buddha. By 250 BCE, the southern regions came under the influence of the northern India Kingdoms, and Nepal later on became a nominal vassal state of India.
> 
> Today, in Vietnam people say that historically Buddha is came from Nepal, or India or correctly from India Continent. It is same story about Qin Xihuang, he was Chinese ( then word Jin or Qin is an origin root of word "China" is to be used popular in the world today) or more correctly: he was Han Chinese. Han Chinese is 92 % of population of China.
> 
> The different is that Nepal become independent state, Qin was vassal state of Zhou and reunited China under rule of Qin Emperor.



Hi dichoi,

Siddhartha Guatama (The Buddha) was born in the republican state known at the time as _Sakya Gaṇa-rājya_a, which in now modern Napal. Napal did not exist during Buddha's time. Vietnamese refer to his birthplace as "Lâm Tỳ Ni" (Lumbini), In Sanskrit meaning "Lovely".

As for the origin of the word China, was derived from "Chin" a word the Persian merchants used to refer to Great Jin (大金), the Jurchens, a dynasty that follows shortly after Great Liao (大遼;Khitan). Marco Polo used as "Cathay". In Latin as "Sinae" This word was later used to by Portuguese explorers as "China".

Persians do not know the history or the existence of the Qin Dynasty (秦朝). It was before their time. Therefore, Qin is not the root word of China.

Respectfully.

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## fromdesert

StarCraft_ZT said:


> They look like each other to some extent.
> 
> But you are wrong, Zhang Hanyun is from Sichuan, not Shanghai.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? You really think so? French sounds terrible. Spanish sounds good.


Chinese sounds best


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> You clearly haven't read KirovAirship or Huaren's posts your claim has already been debunked and you are just trying to shift goalposts.



and what is "cách mạng văn hóa" "文化大革命" ? , this concept 革命 chinese borrowed back from Japanese too.
So in time of "文化大革命" in China, most of peasant in China didn't understood what does it mean, then Mao Zedong said : " rebel has right " or " tạo phản có lý" in Vietnamese.



Grand Historian said:


> No it didn't Le Minh Khai has clearly shown that it was addressed to the Vietnamese "traitors",a declaration of independence didn't even exist in Classical Chinese so all you are doing is twisting the original.



Le Minh Khai or Lam C. Kelly is trolled about 平吳 大誥, this document is written by Nguyen Trai, he is Red River Delta scholar, and 而 各 帝 一 方 existed in Classical Han Zi too. It got a meaning "Independence"

and what does it mean the following statement ?

惟 我 大 越 之 國,
實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。

Như nước Việt ta từ trước,
Vốn xưng văn-hiến đã lâu,
Sơn-hà cương-vực đã chia,
Phong-tục bắc nam cũng khác.
Từ Đinh, Lê, Lý, Trần, gây nền độc-lập,
Cùng Hán, Đường, Tống, Nguyên, hùng-cứ một phương,..

The nature of this statement is a declaration of independence of Vietnam from China.



Grand Historian said:


> Do you or do you not understand what anachronism is?
> 1: an error in chronology; especially : a chronological misplacing of persons, events, objects, or customs in regard to each other
> 2: a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place;especially : one from a former age that is incongruous in the present
> 3: the state or condition of being chronologically out of place
> Anachronism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> The concept of Han Chinese couldn't have existed back then as Hanzhong was a foreign place to the natives of the central plains.
> You don't seem to understand that sources about Qin Shihuang were highly unflattering and criticizing of his persona and his empire so including a line of his supposed illegitimacy was to validate that Tian punished his rule.
> Unless you have DNA of King Zhuangxiang,Qin Shihuang and Lu Buwei your claim holds no merit.



when you don trusted on Shiji or chronicle stories recorded about the story of Lu Buwei. Officially Qin Shihuang 秦始皇帝 is dencent of 五帝 - 顓頊. Qin Shihuang is the son of 秦庄襄王. So he is Han Chinese.

I believe on the history of 三皇五帝 of ancient China. it is myth, but created by Chinese. Like Hungking and Van Lang of Vietnamese.



Grand Historian said:


> Again anachronism,we don't call Confucius a resident of the People's Republic of China the same reason why Buddha isn't from the Republic of India or Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal.
> If you cannot grasp this basic concept,then there's nothing left more me to say.



Base on your logic, it does not existed such kind of "sinized red river elites" in Tonkin when Lê Lợi taken back Đại Việt from Ming Dynasty temporally occupation in 22 year.

After 1949, did Mao cared to much about such Han Jian traitors who were cooperated with Japanese in WW II ?

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> and what is "cách mạng văn hóa" "文化大革命" ? , this concept 革命 chinese borrowed back from Japanese too.
> So in time of "文化大革命" in China, most of peasant in China didn't understood what does it mean, then Mao Zedong said : " rebel has right " or " tạo phản có lý" in Vietnamese.


It originated from China,you don't seem to understand the Chinese already had the meaning in Hanzi while the Japanese merely combined them.

Which has nothing to do with 漢 being borrowed by Vietnamese as it was exclusively used to designate Chinese culture other than some toponyms.



dichoi said:


> Le Minh Khai or Lam C. Kelly is trolled about 平吳 大誥, this document is written by Nguyen Trai, he is Red River Delta scholar, and 而 各 帝 一 方 existed in Classical Han Zi too. It got a meaning "Independence"
> 
> and what does it mean the following statement ?
> 
> 惟 我 大 越 之 國,
> 實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
> 山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
> 南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
> 自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
> 與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
> 
> Như nước Việt ta từ trước,
> Vốn xưng văn-hiến đã lâu,
> Sơn-hà cương-vực đã chia,
> Phong-tục bắc nam cũng khác.
> Từ Đinh, Lê, Lý, Trần, gây nền độc-lập,
> Cùng Hán, Đường, Tống, Nguyên, hùng-cứ một phương,..
> 
> The nature of this statement is a declaration of independence of Vietnam from China.


Come back when you can actually read classical Chinese and refute his points.



dichoi said:


> when you don trusted on Shiji or chronicle stories recorded about the story of Lu Buwei. Officially Qin Shihuang 秦始皇帝 is dencent of 五帝 - 顓頊. Qin Shihuang is the son of 秦庄襄王. So he is Han Chinese.
> 
> I believe on the history of 三皇五帝 of ancient China. it is myth, but created by Chinese. Like Hungking and Van Lang of Vietnamese.


Again you can't prove he's descended from who unless you have the Y DNA of both parties you are trying to link.

All this demonstrates is you're incapable of understanding that ethnic groups are fluid and that concepts change,if you cannot grasp the concept of anachronism then I can't help you.

Let's say my great grandfather was a Manchu,despite me being a Han,it would be erroneous to label my great grandfather a Han.

The Qin never called themselves Han Chinese and had no reason to,as Hanzhong wasn't the traditional land of the Qin and didn't exhibit any special qualities.

The 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors as well as Vietnamese myths are grounded in fantasy except that Chinese don't go as far as Vietnamese and claim the entirety of Southern China as their homeland.



dichoi said:


> Base on your logic, it does not existed such kind of "sinized red river elites" in Tonkin when Lê Lợi taken back Đại Việt from Ming Dynasty temporally occupation in 22 year.
> 
> After 1949, did Mao cared to much about such Han Jian traitors who were cooperated with Japanese in WW II ?


Where's the flaw in my logic?

Sinicized means that they follow Chinese customs/laws etc. are you going to deny this?

I'm not Mao so how should I know?

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> I agree contempt breeds ignorance,however my point was the Joseon era Koreans didn't view Jurchens as their own despite what what Korean nationalists today are desperately claiming Jin and Qing as Korean to boost their own ego.
> 
> 
> The problem is that nationalistic Koreans make ridiculous claims that require a suspension of logic and distortion of historical sources to achieve their goal.
> 
> In the eyes of many Chinese the Koreans are trying to usurp the cultural/civilizational origin of East Asia from China to Korea.
> 
> 
> Its proven that are ancestors originate from the continent of Africa,however what the Koreans are doing is like saying the Africans originated from the Chinese.
> 
> Likewise what nationalistic Koreans are doing today is shameless,they twist the Altaic hypothesis by claiming that all other Altaic speakers ie Mongols,Manchus etc originated from Gojoseon therefore they are Korean,cherrypick quotes out of Chinese books to show that they "owned" lands in today's China,stress a narrative that they are "pure" and that Koreaness already existed in prehistoric times,making claims that defy linguistics Jusen = Joseon,even to the insane ie insisting that Shang,Yan,Xianbei/Xiongnu states,Liao,Jin,Yuan,Qing etc are all Korean and that Chinese somehow rewrote history about their Korean conquerors.


Can you tell me why the Ming, Qing placed Korea on the top of the ancient tributary system?


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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> Can you tell me why the Ming, Qing placed Korea on the top of the ancient tributary system?


The Joseon were close in proximity,did not seek to invade other tributaries or Ming itself,offered tribute regularly,derived authority from the Ming emperor,common enemies etc.

Keep in mind if wasn't for the subsequent unification of China by Zhu Yuanzhang,Yi Seonggye wouldn't have the chance to revolt and used the Ming as a keystone for imperial legitimacy.

To summarize the Goryeo-Joseon interregnum due to extensive marriage and Yuan hegemony there were many factions loyal to the Yuan suzerain,King Gongmin of Goryeo had to purge pro Yuan officials which undermined his legitimacy.

However King Gongmin was faced with the conundrum of facing a Ming or Yuan intervention so he tried to appease both sides,however due to miscalculation he tried to seize the Liaodong peninsula in 1370 greatly angering Emperor Hongwu though he died before Ming intervention.

Due to the death of a Ming envoy and doubt that King U was actually his son,Emperor Hongwu used this opportunity to threaten King U by not providing Chinese legitimacy

Hongwu seeing how King U was at least competent in surviving accepted tribute though there was a period of years with frosty relationships due to the Goryeo also giving tribute to the Mongol chieftain Naghachu.

However Naghachu surrendered to the Ming and the Ming proceeded to annex Northeastern Korea due to unclear borders.

King U then proceeded to send a token force to invade Liaodong in 1388,and the rest is history as Yi Seonggye used this chance to set up puppet rulers and eventually take over the Goryeo himself.

However this is not the start of rosy relationships despite granting Yi Seonggye the right to name his kingdom Joseon,Hongwu still used temporary titles.

The Ming believed that Yi Seonggye was still technically an usurper claiming he was the son of Yi In-Im(a Yuan loyalist),murderer of the Goryeo monarchs,supposed collaboration with Jurchens raids.

A Joseon-Ming conflict almost happened when Hongwu decided to close the Sino-Korean borders over a perceived insult while some factions wanted to invade Liaodong,though it ended due to Hongwu's death and Taejo's abdication.

Both Ming and Joseon went through mini civil wars over descendants of their founders with the Koreans granting resources as tribute which thawed the rift left behind by Hongwu.

So by Emperor Yongle the amicable relationship between Ming and Joseon with culminated with Ming aid during the Imjin War and Joseon support of the Ming over the Manchus.

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## Viet

Grand historian, thank for your explanation.

I like to add that the ranking or how importance of a nation within the tributes system caused some bad blood in Vietnam. The Ming placed Vietnam in the second place behind Korea, while the Qing put Vietnam far behind Korea and other countries.

During the reign of the Nguyen, in a tribute session the Qing placed the Nguyen below Laos, a country which was viewed as barbarian by Vietnam. emperor Ming Mang threatened to quit the tributes system and leave the chinese world order, because the chinese move was considered as insult, provocation to the vietnamese court.

Such a step of Vietnam, leaving the tributes system would result to dramatic consequences.

I just wonder if China ever considered to annex Korea?


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## SimonTagawa

Grand Historian said:


> If you actually believe in Korean nationalist historiography then so be it.
> 
> Keep in mind it was you that brought up the Khitans "relationship" with the Koreans.
> 
> They typical excuse is that the Chinese of Japanese burnt the glorious history of the Koreans and trying to hide the fact that Korean were the rulers of East Asia.
> 
> No, great historians don't spend their times on pseudo history,why do you think works written on the "Black" Egyptians,Chinese discovering the Americas,or even Korean Gojoseon are scorned by the international community?


Yes, I went off topic with that post because this thread is not on Korean's history.

To confess, my family is currently living and working in South Korea. I've studied, worked and lived in many different countries, including Russia, China to Malaysia. From Spain, Egypt to Japan. I can't say that I know a lot about history, but I do know a thing or two and would discuss more on the respective subject, but it will irritate you more than be helpful to your understanding. 

I do admire your strong will to defend in what you believe in. Don't let your pride turn into prejudice.

Initially, when I started this account with my son, living in today's diverse world, I was hoping that he may find/learn the cohesiveness among our Asian cultures. However, I fail to read all the post in this forum as well as in other forums regarding the similar subject when opening an account for him. This is my mistake.

I hope by the time my other kids grows older, the Vietnam/China sea dispute would be resolved. 

How do we opt out from receiving emails from this site?


----------



## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> It originated from China,you don't seem to understand the Chinese already had the meaning in Hanzi while the Japanese merely combined them.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with 漢 being borrowed by Vietnamese as it was exclusively used to designate Chinese culture other than some toponyms.
> 
> 
> Come back when you can actually read classical Chinese and refute his points.
> 
> 
> Again you can't prove he's descended from who unless you have the Y DNA of both parties you are trying to link.
> 
> All this demonstrates is you're incapable of understanding that ethnic groups are fluid and that concepts change,if you cannot grasp the concept of anachronism then I can't help you.
> 
> Let's say my great grandfather was a Manchu,despite me being a Han,it would be erroneous to label my great grandfather a Han.
> 
> The Qin never called themselves Han Chinese and had no reason to,as Hanzhong wasn't the traditional land of the Qin and didn't exhibit any special qualities.
> 
> The 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors as well as Vietnamese myths are grounded in fantasy except that Chinese don't go as far as Vietnamese and claim the entirety of Southern China as their homeland.
> 
> 
> Where's the flaw in my logic?
> 
> Sinicized means that they follow Chinese customs/laws etc. are you going to deny this?
> 
> I'm not Mao so how should I know?




Problem here is that Vietnamese used Han Zi in official writing system in the past. Han Nom words are created by Vietnamese elites, but were not permitted to be used in offical document or history chronicle text of Kingdom.

The word or name 漢 is existed from time of Han Dynasty ( 漢朝, 206 B.C.E. – 220 C.E.), not from northern Wei 北魏, this kingdom existed in China later on, 385 to 535. As I know it's Han Zhong, Han xui, two word is existed from ancient time in China. Han Dynasty created first idea about Han people from Zhongyuan. Chinese labelled his people following to the name of the dynasty Emperor who reigned the country. In case you dont believed that Qin Shihuang is Han Chinese in origin, Han Dynasty is first Dynasty of Han people. There is a reason why to day Chinese Majority people (92 % of Chinese nationality ) claimed himself as Han Chinese. Southern Chinese claimed their ancestor came to south from North China too.

So that the word Han 漢 is used in time of Nguyen Dynasty has a anonym to the majority people in idea to make different Han and Man, majority people and minority people in ethnicity.

Đại Nam thực lục (大南實錄) is the official chronicle History book of Nguyễn Dynasty, in the same stylish of Han van 漢文, Vietnamese Kinh people as was in majority ethnic, was called as Han people 漢 人 and Chinese immigrant was called Tang ren 唐 人, Khmer krom was called Chenla people and other people on Montagnag was called Man (moi in Vietnamese) people. Does it mean that Hua people in Vietnam in Nguyen Dynasty era is not sinized ?

when you like to talking about influence òf Chinese culture in Vietnam, I would like to quote here again What is "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" stated; 南 北 之 風 俗亦 異. The costoms of North (China) and South (Vietnam) is different (Phong tục bắc nam cũng khác).

using of term 漢 人 to the majority ethnic in Vietnam is not evident for that Vietnamese Kinh people culturally is sinized.

Chinese borrowed the word for example coca cola 可口可乐 has led to 可乐 becoming the common Chinese noun for all sodas. when coca cola and sodas is different.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> Problem here is that Vietnamese used Han Zi in official writing system in the past. Han Nom words are created by Vietnamese elites, but were not permitted to be used in offical document or history chronicle text of Kingdom.
> 
> The word or name 漢 is existed from time of Han Dynasty ( 漢朝, 206 B.C.E. – 220 C.E.), not from northern Wei 北魏, this kingdom existed in China later on, 385 to 535. As I know it's Han Zhong, Han xui, two word is existed from ancient time in China. Han Dynasty created first idea about Han people from Zhongyuan. Chinese labelled his people following to the name of the dynasty Emperor who reigned the country. In case you dont believed that Qin Shihuang is Han Chinese in origin, Han Dynasty is first Dynasty of Han people. There is a reason why to day Chinese Majority people (92 % of Chinese nationality ) claimed himself as Han Chinese. Southern Chinese claimed their ancestor came to south from North China too.
> 
> So that the word Han 漢 is used in time of Nguyen Dynasty has a anonym to the majority people in idea to make different Han and Man, majority people and minority people in ethnicity.
> 
> Đại Nam thực lục (大南實錄) is the official chronicle History book of Nguyễn Dynasty, in the same stylish of Han van 漢文, Vietnamese Kinh people as was in majority ethnic, was called as Han people 漢 人 and Chinese immigrant was called Tang ren 唐 人, Khmer krom was called Chenla people and other people on Montagnag was called Man (moi in Vietnamese) people. Does it mean that Hua people in Vietnam in Nguyen Dynasty era is not sinized ?
> 
> when you like to talking about influence òf Chinese culture in Vietnam, I would like to quote here again What is "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" stated; 南 北 之 風 俗亦 異. The costoms of North (China) and South (Vietnam) is different (Phong tục bắc nam cũng khác).
> 
> using of term 漢 人 to the majority ethnic in Vietnam is not evident for that Vietnamese Kinh people culturally is sinized.
> 
> Chinese borrowed the word for example coca cola 可口可乐 has led to 可乐 becoming the common Chinese noun for all sodas. when coca cola and sodas is different.


I advise you to read "BECOMING ZHONGGUO, BECOMING HAN: TRACING AND RE-CONCEPTUALIZING ETHNICITY IN ANCIENT NORTH CHINA, 770 BC - AD 581",Critical Han Studies The History, Representation, and Identity of China’s Majority 
8. Hushuo The Northern Other and the Naming of the Han Chinese" instead before further embarrassing yourself.

Do you or do you not understand what anachronism is?

If my descendants were ruled by Vietnamese and called themselves Kinh,that doesn't mean I thought of myself as Kinh Vietnamese,I would still be Han Chinese.

Han as an concept didn't exist in Qin Shihuang's mind of his contemporary,even the Jin called themselves 華 not 漢.

If it wasn't for nomads ruling China there would be no 漢,as the Xianbei literally thought the Han dynasty still existed therefore when they conquered Northern China the natives were labeled as 漢.

While the Xiongnu labeled their subjects 秦 after the dynasty.

The Xianbei never called themselves 漢 and tried to call themselves 華 even as going as far to call the Southern dynasties as 夷.

Which manifested in 3 ways
1.As an ethnic label for Sinitic speakers of Northern China
2.The fallen Han dynasty
3 A crude slang meaning the average man

While the Tang used 漢 as a nationality which applied to Xianbei/Han ie all the emperor's subjects while 華 was preferred.

Which manifested in 4 ways
1.The Tang as a political polity and its subjects
2.The fallen Han dynasty
3 A crude slang meaning the average man
4.The central plains as a toponym

The Khitans called themselves 契丹,the Tanguts used 番(Mi in their language).

This practice was revived by the Khitans and Tanguts who labeled the Northern/Southern Song as 漢 while Khitans referring to their own Chinese subjects as 漢 or 趙(due to the Song imperial household) and the Tanguts calling their own Chinese subjects Za which doesn't correspond with 漢.

While Northern Song had frontier soldiers referring to themselves as 漢 while literati and nobles disproved of this and Emperor Huizong even issued an edict banning referencing the Northern Song as 漢 or 唐.

While Southern Song no one retained the use of 漢, while 唐 was popular amongst the lower classes while the elite preferred 華.

While Jurchens also used 漢 for the native Sinitic speakers and for "Chinese" terms such as Chinese writing,language,customs,surnames,culture etc,while the Jurchens hated the term 番(unlike the Khitans,Tibetans and Tanguts)and flogged those who used it for them or their subjects/state.

So in reality 漢 was used as a substitute for Chinese dynasty,people and culture.

You are just a revisionist troll who seeks to underplay Chinese influence,漢 meant that the Vietnamese Sinicized,while your case of Chinese calling themselves 唐 doesn't work either as it was used exclusively for Chinese.

Why do you think terms 漢字,漢姓,漢方,漢語,漢風,漢地 all exist?

Are you seriously going to argue that 漢 isn't Chinese?

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## Viva_China

Hi,三泰虎


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## Turn-Coat

The problem here, as is with other forums is that people continues to bring up old history of rivalry which has come to past hundreds and thousand of years ago. Let them remain in the past. Vietnam has its own distinct history and culture and China has theirs. Let us not mix the two together. Surely there are some similarities through trades and commerce over centuries between neighboring countries. Rather, we should focus on the more modern, distinctively developed culture and history of the two nationality, without mentioning their past or present conflicts to keep things neutral.

As for "文化不改" (what is written can not be changed), this is simply because erasers were not invented yet at the time when the metaphor was in use. It is irrelevant to today's thinking. 

If this is about the China/Vietnam sea dispute like in many other forums I have encountered, let the two country resolve this amongst themselves. A few politicians' greed in making themselves richer by making their people do the fighting for them are known as cowards behind the desk if you asked me. If these debates are about your national prides, do you still consider these countries your nation of allegiance? If your parents and ancestors left either China or Vietnam's communist regime so that you may have a better life, then, why should you care what the leaders of these two nations are disputing about now. They didn't care for your love ones' life when they drove them out. Unless you are presently living in these communist countries trying to find your own ways out, then, best of luck to you.

To quote Napoleon Bonaparte, "We are either Kings or pawns of men". Let us not be pawns for these politicians. 

"In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us".
-Abbott Thích Nhất Hạnh 

With that said, let us overseas brethren, Courageous Viet (Hùng Việt) and Good Han (好漢), join as one to learn the mistake in both our histories so that we may respect each other's enduring cultures, and in the future, we may aid with liberating our people and the people of Tibetan from these tyrants and rewrite the last part of our history in unity, for the better good of humanity.

I only signed up here in order to express myself. No need to reply.

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## John2323

EastSea said:


> Nan Yue Guo was conquered by Han Dynasty. United States founded by English men but became Independence State.


 First, Han Dynasty did not conquered Nan Yue. Zhao Tuo, the founder and the king of Nan Yue, is a chinese, himself accepted to be ruled by Han Dynasty and also as part of Han Dynasty, without war. Because he is a chinese. 90 years later, a powerful minister, whose chinese name is Lv Jia, killed the King Zhao Xing and betrayed Han Dynasty. So, the emperor, Han Wu Di, revenged for his vassal Zhao Xing and eliminated Nan Yue usurped by Lv Jia.

Funny. Very hard to meet some thoughtful viet guys as you and Viet the poster . Most of viet guys are very angry but only angry. They do not know the history between China and Viet except what in their imagination of what the mouthpiece told them. My friend, China and Viet have natural kinship. And, publicizing the anti-China rhetoric is not a good choice for Vietnam. Because the heaven is to far for Vietnam while China is so close. If you have a powerful neighbor, you can only move out or accept the reality. Can Vietnam move out? So, learn Mexico and Canada. More hostile act only give Vietnam more hurt. Because as you know, even the Soviet Union swear to protect Viet, China still beated Vietnam in 1979, and tell me what the Soviet Union did for you? No even one country in the earth can and will fight with China for Viet. The war incited by Soviet Union made Vietnam lost the best chance to develop in 1980s. At the same time, South Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia accept the preliminary industrialization. My opinion is that, Vietnam willlingly act as a pathetic tool of Soviet Union to aim at China hurt yourself too much. Orelse, the industrious and clever Vietnamese could build a much better country like South Korea. And as you know, South Korea provoked China and also learned something in 1950s. Still, USA can not protect it. Again, no country can protect littile state if China want to beat them. Luckly, the last 30 years, China fucosed on economicconstruction. So, From Korean War, South Korea government learned to provoke China, just as they did in most time of the last 2000 years. You need to know, Korea is the best and welcome dependency in the eyes of many Chinese Emperors in a long history.
I understand my Viet friends and also feel pity for you. But as I say, Vietnam cannot move out. You only can accept it.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> I advise you to read "BECOMING ZHONGGUO, BECOMING HAN: TRACING AND RE-CONCEPTUALIZING ETHNICITY IN ANCIENT NORTH CHINA, 770 BC - AD 581",Critical Han Studies The History, Representation, and Identity of China’s Majority
> 8. Hushuo The Northern Other and the Naming of the Han Chinese" instead before further embarrassing yourself.
> Do you or do you not understand what* anachronism* is?



What do you mean about that ? this is Latin terminology. Dont try to playing with such big wording. I don't care how do you do to show of yourself. You can say simply that I have been made a mistake when I have been dating back Han Zi word from Northern Wei back to Qin Dynasty. There is my point of view, the word Han was existed like in Han Zhong in ancient time of China. There is the root of this word.

Here is forum for public discussion,not for elites.



Grand Historian said:


> If my descendants were ruled by Vietnamese and called themselves Kinh,that doesn't mean I thought of myself as Kinh Vietnamese,I would still be Han Chinese.
> Han as an concept didn't exist in Qin Shihuang's mind of his contemporary,even the Jin called themselves 華 not 漢.



when you was Jiao Zhi (Van Lang) ren or Lou Yue ren from China, your descents are immigrated to Vietnam and they are living in Vietnam now, you are also called both as Jiao Zi ren or Kinh ren , It is the same in ethnicity group, just a different a noun that Jiao Zhi ren is ancestor of Kinh ren in Vietnam, shared a same bloodline. Like 華 and 漢.




Grand Historian said:


> If it wasn't for nomads ruling China there would be no 漢,as the Xianbei literally thought the Han dynasty still existed therefore when they conquered Northern China the natives were labeled as 漢.
> While the Xiongnu labeled their subjects 秦 after the dynasty.
> The Xianbei never called themselves 漢 and tried to call themselves 華 even as going as far to call the Southern dynasties as 夷.
> Which manifested in 3 ways
> 1.As an ethnic label for Sinitic speakers of Northern China
> 2.The fallen Han dynasty
> 3 A crude slang meaning the average man
> While the Tang used 漢 as a nationality which applied to Xianbei/Han ie all the emperor's subjects while 華 was preferred.
> Which manifested in 4 ways
> 1.The Tang as a political polity and its subjects
> 2.The fallen Han dynasty
> 3 A crude slang meaning the average man
> 4.The central plains as a toponym
> The Khitans called themselves 契丹,the Tanguts used 番(Mi in their language).
> This practice was revived by the Khitans and Tanguts who labeled the Northern/Southern Song as 漢 while Khitans referring to their own Chinese subjects as 漢 or 趙(due to the Song imperial household) and the Tanguts calling their own Chinese subjects Za which doesn't correspond with 漢.
> While Northern Song had frontier soldiers referring to themselves as 漢 while literati and nobles disproved of this and Emperor Huizong even issued an edict banning referencing the Northern Song as 漢 or 唐.
> While Southern Song no one retained the use of 漢, while 唐 was popular amongst the lower classes while the elite preferred 華.
> While Jurchens also used 漢 for the native Sinitic speakers and for "Chinese" terms such as Chinese writing,language,customs,surnames,culture etc,while the Jurchens hated the term 番(unlike the Khitans,Tibetans and Tanguts)and flogged those who used it for them or their subjects/state.
> So in reality 漢 was used as a substitute for Chinese dynasty,people and culture.



What you said above is just approved my idea, this people you mentioned, they should been "Sinized" and became Han Chinese when they assimilated with Han Chinese and speak mandarin, including Sothern Han Chinese. Other than Tibetan, Hui, Uijgur, Zhuang... etc they are different ethnic group in China.




Grand Historian said:


> You are just a revisionist troll who seeks to underplay Chinese influence,漢 meant that the Vietnamese Sinicized,while your case of Chinese calling themselves 唐 doesn't work either as it was used exclusively for Chinese.
> Why do you think terms 漢字,漢姓,漢方,漢語,漢風,漢地 all exist?
> Are you seriously going to argue that 漢 isn't Chinese?




I would like to remind you that Confucius is living in Spring and Autumn(551–479 BC) before Qin Xihuang (260–210 BC). When you said that Han漢 Culture is Chinese culture. It was original from Spring and Autumn.There is core item or root of Chinese Culture.

I don't deny that Confucius, he was a Chinese teacher, editor, politician, and philosopher of Spring and Autumn period of Chinese history, was influenced in to Red River Delta elites from time domination of Han Dynasty 2,000 year ago, not from time of Nguyen Dynasty as western scholars said recently.

What you said about people in Northern Wei claimed themselves as Han Ren, in majority people to make distinct from Nomad rulers.it is just approved again my idea that Han Ren has another meaning to label a people were civilized, they are not barbarian. or the concept

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> What do you mean about that ? this is Latin terminology. Dont try to playing with such big wording. I don't care how do you do to show of yourself. You can say simply that I have been made a mistake when I have been dating back Han Zi word from Northern Wei back to Qin Dynasty. There is my point of view, the word Han was existed like in Han Zhong in ancient time of China. There is the root of this word.
> 
> Here is forum for public discussion,not for elites.


It doesn't matter what your opinion is, multiple papers have shown that Northern Wei was the first time 漢 was used an ethonym.

The word anachronism is used in basic schooling if you don't understand it then your English isn't sufficient.



dichoi said:


> when you was Jiao Zhi (Van Lang) ren or Lou Yue ren from China, your descents are immigrated to Vietnam and they are living in Vietnam now, you are also called both as Jiao Zi ren or Kinh ren , It is the same in ethnicity group, just a different a noun that Jiao Zhi ren is ancestor of Kinh ren in Vietnam, shared a same bloodline. Like 華 and 漢.


How does a basic analogy elude you?

If my descendants are Vietnamese it doesn't mean I'm Vietnamese.

Except Van Lang doesn't exist and Luo Yue has more than one descendant.



dichoi said:


> What you said above is just approved my idea, this people you mentioned, they should been "Sinized" and became Han Chinese when they assimilated with Han Chinese and speak mandarin, including Sothern Han Chinese. Other than Tibetan, Hui, Uijgur, Zhuang... etc they are different ethnic group in China.


You don't seem to consider that the nomadic invader never labeled themselves 漢 while labeling the indigenous Sinitic speakers 漢.

They didn't all assimilate the Xiongnu and Jie were massacred by Ran Min,Murong Xianbei met their end by the Tuoba,also the rivalry between Khitans/Jurchens/Mongols didn't help population growth either.

While Southern Han Chinese did absorb native populations a great majority of their paternal ancestry comes from the Central Plains,otherwise you can't discount the Y haplogroup proportions between Henan and Fujian Han.

Even so all Southern Han Chinese speak a Sinitic language not Austronesian/Austro Asiatic/Tai Kadai etc.



dichoi said:


> I would like to remind you that Confucius is living in Spring and Autumn(551–479 BC) before Qin Xihuang (260–210 BC). When you said that Han漢 Culture is Chinese culture. It was original from Spring and Autumn.There is core item or root of Chinese Culture.
> 
> I don't deny that Confucius, he was a Chinese teacher, editor, politician, and philosopher of Spring and Autumn period of Chinese history, was influenced in to Red River Delta elites from time domination of Han Dynasty 2,000 year ago, not from time of Nguyen Dynasty as western scholars said recently.
> 
> What you said about people in Northern Wei claimed themselves as Han Ren, in majority people to make distinct from Nomad rulers.it is just approved again my idea that Han Ren has another meaning to label a people were civilized, they are not barbarian. or the concept


Again how can 漢 exist during the Spring and Autumn/Warring States,its anachronistic to label Confucius a 漢.

Are you serious,after all the information I had typed out you still don't understand the concept of 漢?

The Han Chinese of the Northern Wei only started calling themselves 漢 because the Xianbei started calling them that,otherwise they used 趙,晉 or 華.

If 漢 meant being civilized then it wouldn't make sense for the Xianbei to not use the term.

Rather the Xianbei used 華 which applied to all citizens of Northern Wei,essentially diluting an ethnoym into a nationality/culture.

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## Viet

Hi @SimonTagawa,

as you live in Korea, can you tell me some about the people and the country? how are our Viet people in Korea?



John2323 said:


> First, Han Dynasty did not conquered Nan Yue. Zhao Tuo, the founder and the king of Nan Yue, is a chinese, himself accepted to be ruled by Han Dynasty and also as part of Han Dynasty, without war. Because he is a chinese. 90 years later, a powerful minister, whose chinese name is Lv Jia, killed the King Zhao Xing and betrayed Han Dynasty. So, the emperor, Han Wu Di, revenged for his vassal Zhao Xing and eliminated Nan Yue usurped by Lv Jia.
> 
> Funny. Very hard to meet some thoughtful viet guys as you and Viet the poster . Most of viet guys are very angry but only angry. They do not know the history between China and Viet except what in their imagination of what the mouthpiece told them. My friend, China and Viet have natural kinship. And, publicizing the anti-China rhetoric is not a good choice for Vietnam. Because the heaven is to far for Vietnam while China is so close. If you have a powerful neighbor, you can only move out or accept the reality. Can Vietnam move out? So, learn Mexico and Canada. More hostile act only give Vietnam more hurt. Because as you know, even the Soviet Union swear to protect Viet, China still beated Vietnam in 1979, and tell me what the Soviet Union did for you? No even one country in the earth can and will fight with China for Viet. The war incited by Soviet Union made Vietnam lost the best chance to develop in 1980s. At the same time, South Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia accept the preliminary industrialization. My opinion is that, Vietnam willlingly act as a pathetic tool of Soviet Union to aim at China hurt yourself too much. Orelse, the industrious and clever Vietnamese could build a much better country like South Korea. And as you know, South Korea provoked China and also learned something in 1950s. Still, USA can not protect it. Again, no country can protect littile state if China want to beat them. Luckly, the last 30 years, China fucosed on economicconstruction. So, From Korean War, South Korea government learned to provoke China, just as they did in most time of the last 2000 years. You need to know, Korea is the best and welcome dependency in the eyes of many Chinese Emperors in a long history.
> I understand my Viet friends and also feel pity for you. But as I say, Vietnam cannot move out. You only can accept it.


yes, that is an undeniable fact, that we are neighbors. the second undeniable fact we both have unfortunately different views.
anyway, welcome to the forum my friend.


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## Andrei

Vietnamese food is of course not better than chinese food, chinese food is much much better than vietnamese food, just go around in Europe, almost all chinese Restaurant run by Vietnamese.
But vietnamese made bad chinese food. and it makes us unhappy. I am in Germany, we paid in chinese restaurant but later found it was not real chinese food.


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## Rechoice

John2323 said:


> First, Han Dynasty did not conquered Nan Yue. Zhao Tuo, the founder and the king of Nan Yue, is a chinese, himself accepted to be ruled by Han Dynasty and also as part of Han Dynasty, without war. Because he is a chinese. 90 years later, a powerful minister, whose chinese name is Lv Jia, killed the King Zhao Xing and betrayed Han Dynasty. So, the emperor, Han Wu Di, revenged for his vassal Zhao Xing and eliminated Nan Yue usurped by Lv Jia.
> 
> Funny. Very hard to meet some thoughtful viet guys as you and Viet the poster . Most of viet guys are very angry but only angry. They do not know the history between China and Viet except what in their imagination of what the mouthpiece told them. My friend, China and Viet have natural kinship. And, publicizing the anti-China rhetoric is not a good choice for Vietnam. Because the heaven is to far for Vietnam while China is so close. If you have a powerful neighbor, you can only move out or accept the reality. Can Vietnam move out? So, learn Mexico and Canada. More hostile act only give Vietnam more hurt. Because as you know, even the Soviet Union swear to protect Viet, China still beated Vietnam in 1979, and tell me what the Soviet Union did for you? No even one country in the earth can and will fight with China for Viet. The war incited by Soviet Union made Vietnam lost the best chance to develop in 1980s. At the same time, South Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia accept the preliminary industrialization. My opinion is that, Vietnam willlingly act as a pathetic tool of Soviet Union to aim at China hurt yourself too much. Orelse, the industrious and clever Vietnamese could build a much better country like South Korea. And as you know, South Korea provoked China and also learned something in 1950s. Still, USA can not protect it. Again, no country can protect littile state if China want to beat them. Luckly, the last 30 years, China fucosed on economicconstruction. So, From Korean War, South Korea government learned to provoke China, just as they did in most time of the last 2000 years. You need to know, Korea is the best and welcome dependency in the eyes of many Chinese Emperors in a long history.
> I understand my Viet friends and also feel pity for you. But as I say, Vietnam cannot move out. You only can accept it.



idiot chinese.

we are small nation, but we stay here to watching how chinese were enslaving by Nomat, Mongolian, Manchus in the past and white man and Japanese recently. China will be collapsed like it was in the past.



Andrei said:


> Vietnamese food is of course not better than chinese food, chinese food is much much better than vietnamese food, just go around in Europe, almost all chinese Restaurant run by Vietnamese.
> But vietnamese made bad chinese food. and it makes us unhappy. I am in Germany, we paid in chinese restaurant but later found it was not real chinese food.



It is business.

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## Turn-Coat

John2323 said:


> Funny. Very hard to meet some thoughtful viet guys as you and Viet the poster . Most of viet guys are very angry but only angry. They do not know the history between China and Viet except what in their imagination of what the mouthpiece told them. My friend, China and Viet have natural kinship. And, publicizing the anti-China rhetoric is not a good choice for Vietnam. Because the heaven is to far for Vietnam while China is so close. If you have a powerful neighbor, you can only move out or accept the reality. Can Vietnam move out? So, learn Mexico and Canada. More hostile act only give Vietnam more hurt. Because as you know, even the Soviet Union swear to protect Viet, China still beated Vietnam in 1979, and tell me what the Soviet Union did for you? No even one country in the earth can and will fight with China for Viet. The war incited by Soviet Union made Vietnam lost the best chance to develop in 1980s. At the same time, South Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia accept the preliminary industrialization. My opinion is that, Vietnam willlingly act as a pathetic tool of Soviet Union to aim at China hurt yourself too much. Orelse, the industrious and clever Vietnamese could build a much better country like South Korea. And as you know, South Korea provoked China and also learned something in 1950s. Still, USA can not protect it. Again, no country can protect littile state if China want to beat them. Luckly, the last 30 years, China fucosed on economicconstruction. So, From Korean War, South Korea government learned to provoke China, just as they did in most time of the last 2000 years. You need to know, Korea is the best and welcome dependency in the eyes of many Chinese Emperors in a long history.
> I understand my Viet friends and also feel pity for you. But as I say, Vietnam cannot move out. You only can accept it.


Oh, hey.

I just wanted to clarify myself on my previous post. I am not telling anyone to make a martyr of themselves. Simply put it, in my own personal opinion (which is fine if you all don't agree with me), these corrupted politicians/dictators have utilized their cunning skills in speeches and in writing to manipulate the mass population in order to rise to the position they are currently in, and after doing so, they abuse the powers that is entrusted to them by their people.

As they have used their skills to rise to power, we shall use ours skills, in speech and writing, to spread their unkindly deeds to make them fall and let their people erase their names from their history, or create enough pressure on them so that they may curl their tails between their legs, in that sense. We shall force them to re-evaluate themselves to change their arrogant ways, and hopefully, reform their government to improve their citizen's welfare.

Sorry this might be a bit long.

Most of us have heard through news and other mediums or have witnessed the forceful relocation of families from their hereditary land and homes. Forcing many mainlanders into modern slavery; to compete for jobs in the city and live as low paying, low income city dwellers in under-developed housing systems or even worst, into these so-called 6'x3' "cage homes" without its own water supplying sources. There are more than 20 to 30 people sharing one restroom in these run-down buildings.

What was once a great nation with rich respectably proud history, such as China, have now succumb this insult!? Allowing ignorant tyrants to run/ruin the country? How can any of us turn a blind eye, sitting around here to discuss about great leaders and heroes of old, while this is currently go on? 

I do thank you, Sir, for your forewarning and concerns. You sound like a person who wags his tails. Please relay this message back to your master.


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## xesy

Andrei said:


> Vietnamese food is of course not better than chinese food, chinese food is much much better than vietnamese food, just go around in Europe, almost all chinese Restaurant run by Vietnamese.
> But vietnamese made bad chinese food. and it makes us unhappy. I am in Germany, we paid in chinese restaurant but later found it was not real chinese food.


Dude, it's hard to say which countries has better food. It's all based on taste. For example us Easterners think snails are grossed, but French think of it as a delicacy. Westerners then cannot understand why we eat things like cats, dog, monkey, horses, snakes, insects, etc.
I believe Chinese has a saying "Eat Chinese food, live in Western house, marry Japanese wife". I guess that is still true. China surely has an edge on cooking culture because it has such a large population to feed everyday and a rich and intact history line to record all the important cooking experience.


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> It doesn't matter what your opinion is, multiple papers have shown that Northern Wei was the first time 漢 was used an ethonym.
> The word anachronism is used in basic schooling if you don't understand it then your English isn't sufficient.



What is an anachronism is not secret terminology in English, bro. (_Noun, something or someone that is not in its correct historical or chronological time, esp. a thing or person that belongs to an earlier time. .., object, event, etc., is assigned a date or period other than the correct one)_

I copy here for you, again what I believed that this is correct: "people of Han" (漢人) is existed from time of Han Dynasty.

" As a result of the Han Dynasty's prominence, in inter-ethnic and inter-(premodern)-national matters,* many Chinese began identifying themselves as "people of Han" (漢人),* a name that has since been carried down"

Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the time of Northern Wei 北魏, (386–535) , Han people is still claimed themselves as "people of Han" (漢人) , discriminated majority people "are civilized" from minority people from Nomad tribes rulers considered "are barbarian" by Chinese scholars.



Grand Historian said:


> How does a basic analogy elude you?
> If my descendants are Vietnamese it doesn't mean I'm Vietnamese.
> Except Van Lang doesn't exist and Luo Yue has more than one descendant.



Its stranger when you did not understood my idea. Hanzu 漢 族 and Huaxia zu people 華夏族 are shared same bloodline and ethnic group.

You are Han, your descendant is ruled by Vietnamese, your descendant is Hua ren or Tang ren, or Minh Huong. Your descendanr does not shared bloodline with Vietnamese/Kinh people, so can not considered as Viet/king in ethnicity. He could have Vietnamese citizenship only.



Grand Historian said:


> You don't seem to consider that the nomadic invader never labeled themselves 漢 while labeling the indigenous Sinitic speakers 漢.
> They didn't all assimilate the Xiongnu and Jie were massacred by Ran Min,Murong Xianbei met their end by the Tuoba,also the rivalry between Khitans/Jurchens/Mongols didn't help population growth either.
> While Southern Han Chinese did absorb native populations a great majority of their paternal ancestry comes from the Central Plains,otherwise you can't discount the Y haplogroup proportions between Henan and Fujian Han.
> Even so all Southern Han Chinese speak a Sinitic language not Austronesian/Austro Asiatic/Tai Kadai etc.



北魏 (386-534) annihilated the empire of 北涼 (398-439) in the far west. Except four states ( 西涼, 北燕,   前涼 and the 魏冉), all other empires, kingdoms and polities in the north were founded by Non-Chinese 漢 persons.

They came from the "five barbarian" peoples (_wuhu_ 五胡) of the Xianbei 鮮卑, Jie 羯, Qiang 羌, Di 氐 and Xiongnu 匈奴 (including the Lushui 盧水 and Tiefu 鐵弗 tribes). They don't speak Mandarin Sino-Tibetan language. They are minority people of China.



Grand Historian said:


> Again how can 漢 exist during the Spring and Autumn/Warring States,its anachronistic to label Confucius a 漢.
> Are you serious,after all the information I had typed out you still don't understand the concept of 漢?
> The Han Chinese of the Northern Wei only started calling themselves 漢 because the Xianbei started calling them that,otherwise they used 趙,晉 or 華.
> If 漢 meant being civilized then it wouldn't make sense for the Xianbei to not use the term.
> Rather the Xianbei used 華 which applied to all citizens of Northern Wei,essentially diluting an ethnoym into a nationality/culture.



Xianbei people 鮮卑 is Nomad people, they speak Turk language, this people could not been Hanzu in ethnicity. The State was not considered as righteous Han dynasty though that they labelled themselves as 漢.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> What is an anachronism is not secret terminology in English, bro. (_Noun, something or someone that is not in its correct historical or chronological time, esp. a thing or person that belongs to an earlier time. .., object, event, etc., is assigned a date or period other than the correct one)_
> 
> I copy here for you, again what I believed that this is correct: "people of Han" (漢人) is existed from time of Han Dynasty.
> 
> " As a result of the Han Dynasty's prominence, in inter-ethnic and inter-(premodern)-national matters,* many Chinese began identifying themselves as "people of Han" (漢人),* a name that has since been carried down"
> 
> Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> In the time of Northern Wei 北魏, (386–535) , Han people is still claimed themselves as "people of Han" (漢人) , discriminated majority people "are civilized" from minority people from Nomad tribes rulers considered "are barbarian" by Chinese scholars.


The more interact with the you the more I'm convinced you haven't read my sources.

It doesn't matter what your believe in,Wikipedia as a source is laughable 

漢 was never used an ethonym during the Han dynasty it was a nationality,ie Chinese applies to all ethnic minorities and the majority in the PRC but Han only applies to the Han.

You can lie all you want repeating the same debunked information is ludicrous.

Han didn't call themselves 漢 the Xianbei did,otherwise they were used to using 趙,晉 or 華.

While the Xianbei used 華,so no it doesn't make sense for the Xianbei to insult their own culture by labeling the majority of their subjects as 漢.



dichoi said:


> Its stranger when you did not understood my idea. Hanzu 漢 族 and Huaxia zu people 華夏族 are shared same bloodline and ethnic group.
> 
> You are Han, your descendant is ruled by Vietnamese, your descendant is Hua ren or Tang ren, or Minh Huong. Your descendanr does not shared bloodline with Vietnamese/Kinh people, so can not considered as Viet/king in ethnicity. He could have Vietnamese citizenship only.


Again you fail to understand anachronism you can't equate two separate ethnoyms,the Shang are different from the Zhou,the Zhou different from the Qin,the Qin different from the Han etc,no culture or ethnicity is static.

Its the same reason why Confucius or Qin Shihuang can't be Han,why Xiongnu are neither Turks or Mongols,why Dong Son are not Kinh etc.



dichoi said:


> 北魏 (386-534) annihilated the empire of 北涼 (398-439) in the far west. Except four states ( 西涼, 北燕,   前涼 and the 魏冉), all other empires, kingdoms and polities in the north were founded by Non-Chinese 漢 persons.
> 
> They came from the "five barbarian" peoples (_wuhu_ 五胡) of the Xianbei 鮮卑, Jie 羯, Qiang 羌, Di 氐 and Xiongnu 匈奴 (including the Lushui 盧水 and Tiefu 鐵弗 tribes). They don't speak Mandarin Sino-Tibetan language. They are minority people of China.


So what if they're non-Han?

Vietnamese had multiple rulers that had ancestors from Chinese polities,does that invalidate the dynasty?

The Di and the Qiang were Tibeto Burman speakers.

The nomads never labeled themselves 漢 however some did call themselves 華.




dichoi said:


> Xianbei people 鮮卑 is Nomad people, they speak Turk language, this people could not been Hanzu in ethnicity. The State was not considered as righteous Han dynasty though that they labelled themselves as 漢.


Nobody is claiming that the Xianbei viewed themselves as Han or call themselves Han.

The questions is whether the Xianbei viewed themselves as Chinese,however that's another argument.

The Mandate of Heaven doesn't just apply to Han/Hua, they were as legitimate as the Southern dynasties.


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## hans

you are right.
good or bad food really depends on taste.
One thing good about Chinese food is that there are so many choice..
The food vary from different locations and you can try them all!
Other smaller country usually has limited choice



xesy said:


> Dude, it's hard to say which countries has better food. It's all based on taste. For example us Easterners think snails are grossed, but French think of it as a delicacy. Westerners then cannot understand why we eat things like cats, dog, monkey, horses, snakes, insects, etc.
> I believe Chinese has a saying "Eat Chinese food, live in Western house, marry Japanese wife". I guess that is still true. China surely has an edge on cooking culture because it has such a large population to feed everyday and a rich and intact history line to record all the important cooking experience.


----------



## Edison Chen

xesy said:


> Dude, it's hard to say which countries has better food. It's all based on taste. For example us Easterners think snails are grossed, but French think of it as a delicacy. Westerners then cannot understand why we eat things like cats, dog, monkey, horses, snakes, insects, etc.
> I believe Chinese has a saying "Eat Chinese food, live in Western house, marry Japanese wife". I guess that is still true. China surely has an edge on cooking culture because it has such a large population to feed everyday and a rich and intact history line to record all the important cooking experience.



Please....cats, dog, monkey? And what does "we" mean? Do you eat them? I never eat those in my life, neither do my families, friends. In my city, I can't find any restaurant serving these disgusting "food". 

I like eating snails. Szechuan food, spicy snails.


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## xesy

Edison Chen said:


> Please....cats, dog, monkey? And what does "we" mean? Do you eat them? I never eat those in my life, neither do my families, friends. In my city, I can't find any restaurant serving these disgusting "food".
> 
> I like eating snails. Szechuan food, spicy snails.
> 
> View attachment 46760


By "we" I mean East Asian. Don't we invent some weird dishes? For example VNese eat young bamboo, which basically is wood and has zero nutrition to us as human cannot digest it. China has a smelly tofu or Japan has sticky bean (natto? natou?). 

Honestly, sometimes I eat dog, as many VNese believe, to chase away bad lucks. Cats and monkeys, I have never tasted and don't intend to. But I know some VNese restaurants serving them. And I eat snails too, boiled snails, but not those big slippery fist-size European snails.


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## hans

young bamboo is good for taste, and can clean your Intestinal with a lot of fibers.
Dog meat is also common here in China, but cats and monkey are rarely eaten...
we need to understand each other`s diet, different location, weather can lead to different diet.



xesy said:


> By "we" I mean East Asian. Don't we invent some weird dishes? For example VNese eat young bamboo, which basically is wood and has zero nutrition to us as human cannot digest it. China has a smelly tofu or Japan has sticky bean (natto? natou?).
> 
> Honestly, sometimes I eat dog, as many VNese believe, to chase away bad lucks. Cats and monkeys, I have never tasted and don't intend to. But I know some VNese restaurants serving them. And I eat snails too, boiled snails, but not those big slippery fist-size European snails.


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## BoQ77

to atheist, everything which is non-poison could be eaten


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## hans

Food shortage is common for all countries.
One solution is war, eliminating the population.
Other solution is find more food, different food



BoQ77 said:


> to atheist, everything which is non-poison could be eaten


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## BoQ77

hans said:


> Food shortage is common for all countries.
> One solution is war, eliminating the population.
> Other solution is find more food, different food



Food shortage is not our issue.


----------



## hans

I think food shortage is only eliminated recent years.
In the past, people have limited food. So that is why they turn to other source of food like bamboo, dog, etc..




BoQ77 said:


> Food shortage is not our issue.


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## Edison Chen

xesy said:


> By "we" I mean East Asian. Don't we invent some weird dishes? For example VNese eat young bamboo, which basically is wood and has zero nutrition to us as human cannot digest it. China has a smelly tofu or Japan has sticky bean (natto? natou?).
> 
> Honestly, sometimes I eat dog, as many VNese believe, to chase away bad lucks. Cats and monkeys, I have never tasted and don't intend to. But I know some VNese restaurants serving them. And I eat snails too, boiled snails, but not those big slippery fist-size European snails.


Im glad that you don't eat cats and monkeys. You should stop eating dogs. I eat donkey.


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## hans

I don`t eat dogs personally. But my wife do..
You cannot force other to eat or not eat something...
Respect people..




Edison Chen said:


> Im glad that you don't eat cats and monkeys. You should stop eating dogs. I eat donkey.


----------



## Edison Chen

hans said:


> I don`t eat dogs personally. But my wife do..
> You cannot force other to eat or not eat something...
> Respect people..



BoQ is that you? STFU


----------



## WooMath

I would classify Chinese cooking as science, while most other cooking as culture.

What's the difference between science and culture? 

Science is something fallacy. Say Newtonian theory is science because it's a fallacy proved by Quantum mechanics and Relativity. But science is good, it can move forward, always self-correct itself.

Culture is something never admitting itself wrong. All the religions are culture because none of the religion claim they are wrong. But culture is evil, it's like delusion for specific group of people, it never be a mainstream of the world.

Chinese cooking is science because Chinese cooking never fix its servicing courses or materials or whatever. Chinese cooking can evolve automatically according to the latest development of nutrition science and cooking technologies. That's the reason Chinese food are world wide accepted.

While most other cookings are not science, but culture. Say Indian cooking will never consume beef, and western cooking are very religious on serving procedures and meat selections. They cannot evolve based on science, they are served for special group of people.

That's just my 2 cents.


----------



## Shishike

WooMath said:


> I would classify Chinese cooking as science, while most other cooking as culture.
> 
> What's the difference between science and culture?
> 
> Science is something fallacy. Say Newtonian theory is science because it's a fallacy proved by Quantum mechanics and Relativity. But science is good, it can move forward, always self-correct itself.
> 
> Culture is something never admitting itself wrong. All the religions are culture because none of the religion claim they are wrong. But culture is evil, it's like delusion for specific group of people, it never be a mainstream of the world.
> 
> Chinese cooking is science because Chinese cooking never fix its servicing courses or materials or whatever. Chinese cooking can evolve automatically according to the latest development of nutrition science and cooking technologies. That's the reason Chinese food are world wide accepted.
> 
> While most other cookings are not science, but culture. Say Indian cooking will never consume beef, and western cooking are very religious on serving procedures and meat selections. They cannot evolve based on science, they are served for special group of people.
> 
> That's just my 2 cents.



Hi, just have to tell, how can a culture be evil? not make sense, it's meaningless to judge something by human evil natural.


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## xesy

Edison Chen said:


> Im glad that you don't eat cats and monkeys. You should stop eating dogs. I eat donkey.


It's not like I eat dogs daily or weekly. Dog meat has a lot of protein and consuming them in large number can cause gout. So I often eat them every 2 months, and only when there is an event (family event, party, etc). This year I haven't eaten any dog yet.


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## Viet

Andrei said:


> Vietnamese food is of course not better than chinese food, chinese food is much much better than vietnamese food, just go around in Europe, almost all chinese Restaurant run by Vietnamese.
> But vietnamese made bad chinese food. and it makes us unhappy. I am in Germany, we paid in chinese restaurant but later found it was not real chinese food.


europe is a wrong place to seek authentic chinese, viet food. most dishes are watered down, westernized version, being customized for european customers, tastes. I think best chinese food can be found in london chinatown.

if you sell authentic chinese, viet food, you will be out of business sooner or later. basic 1*1: supply and demand.


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## xesy

WooMath said:


> I would classify Chinese cooking as science, while most other cooking as culture.
> 
> What's the difference between science and culture?
> 
> Science is something fallacy. Say Newtonian theory is science because it's a fallacy proved by Quantum mechanics and Relativity. But science is good, it can move forward, always self-correct itself.
> 
> Culture is something never admitting itself wrong. All the religions are culture because none of the religion claim they are wrong. But culture is evil, it's like delusion for specific group of people, it never be a mainstream of the world.
> 
> Chinese cooking is science because Chinese cooking never fix its servicing courses or materials or whatever. Chinese cooking can evolve automatically according to the latest development of nutrition science and cooking technologies. That's the reason Chinese food are world wide accepted.
> 
> While most other cookings are not science, but culture. Say Indian cooking will never consume beef, and western cooking are very religious on serving procedures and meat selections. They cannot evolve based on science, they are served for special group of people.
> 
> That's just my 2 cents.


I don't think China cooking is any different from others. It's still a culture, but a culture backed up by the largest group of people in the world. Cooking for 1 billion people has a benifit: the benifit of adaptation. If 1 billion people accept China cooking, then it's easier for the 6 billion rest of the world population to accept them. 

Of course you might say India also has 1 billion people to cook for. But unlike China, India has a smaller territory and was early affected by Western culture. Religion is also an issue making their food quite unique.


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## Viet

hans said:


> I don`t eat dogs personally. But *my wife* do..
> You cannot force other to eat or not eat something...
> Respect people..


you wife eats dog meat? cool.
actually only a small minority in VN eats dog, cat meats...


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## hans

I used to eat dog meat.
Yet after living in city, there isn`t much source of dog meat.
So I haven`t eat dog for long time..
Dog is common in China, Cats are rarely eaten..




Viet said:


> you wife eats dog meat? cool.
> actually only a small minority in VN eats dog, cat meats...


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## Viet

hans said:


> I used to eat dog meat.
> Yet after living in city, there isn`t much source of dog meat.
> So I haven`t eat dog for long time..
> Dog is common in China, Cats are rarely eaten..


I think it is very bad habit. some people eat such exotic meats just out of curiosity. VN has officially banned eating cat meat. I hope we will place a ban on dog meat as well. We are no longer at war, so no need to eat such house animals.

Cat-astrophe: Vietnam’s taste for kitty leaves pets in peril - Features | The Star Online


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## hans

You may don`t like it 
But why you try to ban people on eating such things?
we should understand and respect people.



Viet said:


> I think it is very bad habit. some people eat such exotic meats just out of curiosity. VN has officially banned eating cat meat. I hope we will place a ban on dog meat as well. We are no longer at war, so no need to eat such house animals.


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## Viet

hans said:


> You may don`t like it
> But why you try to ban people on eating such things?
> we should understand and respect people.


because it is not a normal thing of eating dog. it is not like eating fish. dog is intelligent animal and close friend of family. It is not canabalism, but close to it. besides, dogs can carry diseases. there is report, dog napping is a serious issue in VN. a ban could help.

Dog Napping in Vietnam | The Diplomat


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## hans

Dog is an ordinary animal...
animal and human are different



Viet said:


> because it is not a normal thing of eating dog. it is not like eating fish. dog is intelligent animal and close friend of family. It is not canabalism, but close to it. besides, dogs can carry diseases. there is report, dog napping is a serious issue in VN. a ban could help.


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## xesy

@Viet @hans With the rising living standard, people start giving up old habit. Before, you always see young VNese smoking everywhere. But the 9x - 10x generations now don't smoke as much, and surely the number of smokers will keep going down in the next decades. Eating dod is also one of the old habit in the process of being dismissed.

Dog meat is a tradional dish, a delicacy, a tourist attaction, banning them is out of question. But there are more and more people stop eating them. It's just a matter of time before people stop eating them and look for a new dish, but not soon though. So please don't argue too much about it.


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## hans

Right. 
Give it up yourself and ban it by force is something different.



xesy said:


> @Viet @hans With the rising living standard, people start giving up old habit. Before, you always see young VNese smoking everywhere. But the 9x - 10x generations now don't smoke as much, and surely the number of smokers will keep going down in the next decades. Eating dod is also one of the old habit in the process of being dismissed.
> 
> Dog meat is a tradional dish, a delicacy, a tourist attaction, banning them is out of question. But there are more and more people stop eating them. It's just a matter of time before people stop eating them and look for a new dish, but not soon though. So please don't argue too much about it.


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## mrfly911

A dog meat


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> The more interact with the you the more I'm convinced you haven't read my sources.
> It doesn't matter what your believe in,Wikipedia as a source is laughable
> 漢 was never used an ethonym during the Han dynasty it was a nationality,ie Chinese applies to all ethnic minorities and the majority in the PRC but Han only applies to the Han.
> You can lie all you want repeating the same debunked information is ludicrous.
> Han didn't call themselves 漢 the Xianbei did,otherwise they were used to using 趙,晉 or 華.
> While the Xianbei used 華,so no it doesn't make sense for the Xianbei to insult their own culture by labeling the majority of their subjects as 漢.



a wiki is more trusted sources, bro. 漢人 is applied to people of Han Dynasty.

Why people were ruled by Xianbei Tubobe clan still called themselves 漢人 ? because the number of Tubobe clan people is smaller in comparison with number Han ren.



Grand Historian said:


> Again you fail to understand anachronism you can't equate two separate ethnoyms,the Shang are different from the Zhou,the Zhou different from the Qin,the Qin different from the Han etc,no culture or ethnicity is static.
> Its the same reason why Confucius or Qin Shihuang can't be Han,why Xiongnu are neither Turks or Mongols,why Dong Son are not Kinh etc.



What is importance here to Han Chinese related to an anchorism in history of China ?,

The name of dynasties in China is changed time to time. It should been dated before or later on when Han chinese has still stayed in China from ancient time up to now.

Base on your logic I can say that Confucius and Qin Shihuang didn't shared bloodline with Han Chinese, they should been a Korean.



Grand Historian said:


> So what if they're non-Han?
> Vietnamese had multiple rulers that had ancestors from Chinese polities,does that invalidate the dynasty?
> The Di and the Qiang were Tibeto Burman speakers.
> The nomads never labeled themselves 漢 however some did call themselves 華.
> Nobody is claiming that the Xianbei viewed themselves as Han or call themselves Han.
> The questions is whether the Xianbei viewed themselves as Chinese,however that's another argument.
> The Mandate of Heaven doesn't just apply to Han/Hua, they were as legitimate as the Southern dynasties.



Trần and Hồ Dynasty is Vietnamese Dynasty, because they were 越化 vietnamized culturally after many hundred of years and fought against Chinese invaders to protect independence of Vietnam.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> a wiki is more trusted sources, bro. 漢人 is applied to people of Han Dynasty.
> 
> Why people were ruled by Xianbei Tubobe clan still called themselves 漢人 ? because the number of Tubobe clan people is smaller in comparison with number Han ren.


Spoken like a true Wiki scholar,I use dissertations and research papers while you rely on a flimsy source.

Show me that 漢人 was used as an ethonym during the Han dynasty.

The ethnic Chinese didn't use 漢人,it was the Xianbei who started to and so the Northern Han Chinese population followed suit.



dichoi said:


> What is importance here to Han Chinese related to an anchorism in history of China ?,
> 
> The name of dynasties in China is changed time to time. It should been dated before or later on when Han chinese has still stayed in China from ancient time up to now.
> 
> Base on your logic I can say that Confucius and Qin Shihuang didn't shared bloodline with Han Chinese, they should been a Korean.


Again you are literally too foolish to realize that you can't retroactively apply ethonyms to people who didn't even view each other as the same.

We don't have the DNA Qin Shihuang so you can't prove or disprove if he's related to modern day Han Chinese,while Confucius's descendants were enfeoffed as marquises/dukes.(Confucius's descendants also reached Korea.)

Zhou populations also clustered with Han dynasty in skeletal studies,showing that they were related.

While your premise of Confucius or Qin Shihuang as Korean is utterly ridiculous as neither the Lu or Qin states spoke Koreanic languages,and there's evidence of a Koreanic substratum in Sinitic languages etither.



dichoi said:


> Trần and Hồ Dynasty is Vietnamese Dynasty, because they were 越化 vietnamized culturally after many hundred year and fought against Chinese invaders to protect independence of Vietnam.


There's no such thing as 越化,otherwise show a primary source where it was used this way.

Vietnamese culture was a carbon copy of Chinese culture,the identity that there was a distinct Vietnamese identity is challenged by modern day scholars.

I'm just using your logic,that non Han/Hua ethnicity means that the dynasty in no longer Chinese.

There was never an ethnic component to the concept of the Mandate of Heaven.

Otherwise look at countries such as England using your logic England ceased to exist when its rulers were of Roman,Anglo Saxon,Dane,Norman,Scot,Germanic heritage.

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## Jlaw

Viet said:


> because it is not a normal thing of eating dog. it is not like eating fish. dog is intelligent animal and close friend of family. It is not canabalism, but close to it. besides, dogs can carry diseases. there is report, dog napping is a serious issue in VN. a ban could help.
> 
> Dog Napping in Vietnam | The Diplomat



Who determine what is normal what is not? Blue Cheese smell like diarrhea but westerners love it. To me and some other people it's disgusting and should be ban.


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## Viet

Jlaw said:


> Who determine what is normal what is not? Blue Cheese smell like diarrhea but westerners love it. To me and some other people it's disgusting and should be ban.


come on, you can´t compare vegetarian cheese with dog meat.


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## NiceGuy

Viet said:


> come on, you can´t compare vegetarian cheese with dog meat.


People kill people for oil, resources, land,money etc so killing dogs is normal.


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## vtnsx

Grand Historian said:


> Spoken like a true Wiki scholar,I use dissertations and research papers while you rely on a flimsy source.
> 
> Show me that 漢人 was used as an ethonym during the Han dynasty.
> 
> The ethnic Chinese didn't use 漢人,it was the Xianbei who started to and so the Northern Han Chinese population followed suit.
> 
> 
> Again you are literally too foolish to realize that you can't retroactively apply ethonyms to people who didn't even view each other as the same.
> 
> We don't have the DNA Qin Shihuang so you can't prove or disprove if he's related to modern day Han Chinese,while Confucius's descendants were enfeoffed as marquises/dukes.(Confucius's descendants also reached Korea.)
> 
> Zhou populations also clustered with Han dynasty in skeletal studies,showing that they were related.
> 
> While your premise of Confucius or Qin Shihuang as Korean is utterly ridiculous as neither the Lu or Qin states spoke Koreanic languages,and there's evidence of a Koreanic substratum in Sinitic languages etither.
> 
> 
> There's no such thing as 越化,otherwise show a primary source where it was used this way.
> 
> Vietnamese culture was a carbon copy of Chinese culture,the identity that there was a distinct Vietnamese identity is challenged by modern day scholars.
> 
> I'm just using your logic,that non Han/Hua ethnicity means that the dynasty in no longer Chinese.
> 
> There was never an ethnic component to the concept of the Mandate of Heaven.
> 
> Otherwise look at countries such as England using your logic England ceased to exist when its rulers were of Roman,Anglo Saxon,Dane,Norman,Scot,Germanic heritage.



Hey GUYS! Did you hear that? I hear a dog barking and his name is Grand Historian!!

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## WooMath

Good question! Let me tell you why culture is evil.

Culture, so called culture, is a local thing, limited to just a specific group of people. Why it's not accepted world wide, because culture are all bad things, like bad habit. No matter Chinese culture, Vietnamese Culture, American Culture, or French Culture, ..., they are just the bad habits from China, Vietnam, America and France, etc.

On the other hand, even though culture is evil, but they always claim they are correct, or sacred things. *So it's very stupid and useless to argue anything about culture*. I saw many people here doing this right now, to argue which culture is better or superior than the other, that's the exact reason people fighting everyday, from religion wars, ethnic conflicts to personal attacks on this forum. Even though everyone's culture are evil, but *you have to respect, or pretend to respect other's culture, including religion and beliefs, no matter how stupid it is from your personal view*.

the only thing leftover could be arguable is science. Science by its nature, are something, always fallacy, all science have to obey basic scientific laws, and verified by experiments.

You can love Chinese food, or Vietnamese food, that's all your culture. No body can dispute that, but others can have their own favorites. Indians don't eat beef, but has to respect westerners eating beef. Westerners have to learn the same, to respect others eating culture, including eating dog meat. There's no sense to argue or discriminate other people's culture, because all cultures are evil. The only thing can be discussed, is science stuff, for example, to analyze each meat/food nutritional statistics or popularity statistics. 



Shishike said:


> Hi, just have to tell, how can a culture be evil? not make sense, it's meaningless to judge something by human evil natural.





WooMath said:


> I would classify Chinese cooking as science, while most other cooking as culture.
> 
> What's the difference between science and culture?
> 
> Science is something fallacy. Say Newtonian theory is science because it's a fallacy proved by Quantum mechanics and Relativity. But science is good, it can move forward, always self-correct itself.
> 
> Culture is something never admitting itself wrong. All the religions are culture because none of the religion claim they are wrong. But culture is evil, it's like delusion for specific group of people, it never be a mainstream of the world.
> 
> Chinese cooking is science because Chinese cooking never fix its servicing courses or materials or whatever. Chinese cooking can evolve automatically according to the latest development of nutrition science and cooking technologies. That's the reason Chinese food are world wide accepted.
> 
> While most other cookings are not science, but culture. Say Indian cooking will never consume beef, and western cooking are very religious on serving procedures and meat selections. They cannot evolve based on science, they are served for special group of people.
> 
> That's just my 2 cents.

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## Edison Chen

xesy said:


> It's not like I eat dogs daily or weekly. Dog meat has a lot of protein and consuming them in large number can cause gout. So I often eat them every 2 months, and only when there is an event (family event, party, etc). This year I haven't eaten any dog yet.



You are correct. Dog meat may cause gout.


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## Snomannen

Tasting dog meat is on my to-do-list of "things I wanna do before I die". 
Since eating dogs is forbidden in Macau and HK.

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## William Hung

WooMath said:


> Good question! Let me tell you why culture is evil.
> 
> Culture, so called culture, is a local thing, limited to just a specific group of people. Why it's not accepted world wide, because culture are all bad things, like bad habit. No matter Chinese culture, Vietnamese Culture, American Culture, or French Culture, ..., they are just the bad habits from China, Vietnam, America and France, etc.



I think you are mistaken about what the concept of "culture" really mean. A quick Google search gives a pretty good definition:

"the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society."

I'm not an anthropologist but I'm pretty sure that definition describe what most of us have in mind here when we use the word "culture". 



> On the other hand, even though culture is evil, but they always claim they are correct, or sacred things. *So it's very stupid and useless to argue anything about culture*. I saw many people here doing this right now, to argue which culture is better or superior than the other, that's the exact reason people fighting everyday, from religion wars, ethnic conflicts to personal attacks on this forum. Even though everyone's culture are evil, but *you have to respect, or pretend to respect other's culture, including religion and beliefs, no matter how stupid it is from your personal view*.



No it's not stupid and useless to argue about culture. This is what anthropologists do. It is simply a study or analysis of human behaviours. When you are arguing that all culture are evil, that it's not worth talking about, you are fundamentally doing what they are doing. Your beliefs and ideas about "culture" is also part of your culture. As long as you interact in a society and have beliefs and ideas, you yourself are embedded in a culture. 



> the only thing leftover could be arguable is science. Science by its nature, are something, always fallacy, all science have to obey basic scientific laws, and verified by experiments.



The science community also have a "culture". All scientists have certain basic set of rules, law and beliefs that guide their behaviour in their academic community. 



> You can love Chinese food, or Vietnamese food, that's all your culture. No body can dispute that, but others can have their own favorites. Indians don't eat beef, but has to respect westerners eating beef. Westerners have to learn the same, to respect others eating culture, including eating dog meat. There's no sense to argue or discriminate other people's culture, because all cultures are evil. The only thing can be discussed, is science stuff, for example, to analyze each meat/food nutritional statistics or popularity statistics.



Your statements and claims in the above paragraph is also your ideas which is a part of your culture. So are they evil like all other culture? 

also...


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## Rechoice

Edison Chen said:


> You are correct. Dog meat may cause gout.



It is true, I have it then I'm not permitted by my doctor to eat dog meat..


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## terranMarine

KirovAirship said:


> Tasting dog meat is on my to-do-list of "things I wanna do before I die".
> Since eating dogs is forbidden in Macau and HK.


 out of curiosity?


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## Rechoice

dichoi said:


> Trần and Hồ Dynasty is Vietnamese Dynasty, because they were 越化 vietnamized culturally after many hundred of years and fought against Chinese invaders to protect independence of Vietnam.



Theo sách An Nam chí lược của Lê Tắc thì nguồn gốc Nhà Trần là người Giao Chỉ. Tôi thấy điều này là khá tin cậy vì lý do sau:
- Lê tắc từ nhỏ học giỏi được vào hầu cận Trần Thái Tông.
- Là quan chức phục vụ Trần Kiện, người họ Trần, theo Trần Kiện đầu hàng giặc Minh chạy sang TQ.
- Vợ sau của Lê Tắc là con gái Trần Ích tắc.

Như vậy Lê Tắc là người rất am hiểu gia thế của họ Trần và làm sách An Nam Chí Lược khi lưu vong ở TQ và Nhà Trần đang tại vị ở Việt nam. Thời gian làm sách sớm hơn rất nhiều so với Đại Viêt Sử ký Toàn Thư.

Hơn nữa, trong sách của mình Lê tắc rất quan tâm đến nguồn gốc của các nhân vật lịch sử. Như trường hộp nhà Lý, ông viết: "có kẻ bảo là người Phúc Kiến, không đúng ". Trong khi đó khi viết về Trần Thừa, ông viết: "Người giao Chỉ, ngoại thích của Nhà Lý".

http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thảo_luận:Nhà_Trần

so origin of Tran Dynasty is disputed, bro.

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## dichoi

Rechoice said:


> so origin of Tran Dynasty is disputed, bro.



Base on Family Tree of Trần clan in Vietnam, who are direct descent of Tran Dynasty Emperor, It stated that the ancestor of Tran clan was named Tran Minh he has been came to Vietnam from period of Qin invasion before time of Zhao Tuo founded Nan Yue Guo. 

In the same case of Barack Obama.


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> Tasting dog meat is on my to-do-list of "things I wanna do before I die".
> Since eating dogs is forbidden in Macau and HK.


are you nuts?
ok man then why not try trinking blood and eating a live heart of a cobra as well? as special and very expensive dish in VN


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## xesy

Viet said:


> are you nuts?
> ok man then why not try trinking blood and eating a live heart of a cobra as well? as special and very expensive dish in VN


Dude, there is a high chance that you will get allergy. I ate cobra liver and gut once and got rashes for the whole winter.


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## sino boy

KirovAirship said:


> Big disadvantage hrr? Hmm, let's see, how about I:
> 
> 詛咒你隻死馬騮祖宗十八代,
> 冚家鏟快尐仆街跳樓死, 無喺度浪費我哋人類嘅寶貴資源,
> 頂你個肺咁多人死唔見你條食屎南蠻狗死
> 
> Well, not so 'disadvantage'.



I can comprehend…… characters ……haha！！because I am Cantonese……hahaha！！！


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## Rechoice

dichoi said:


> In the same case of Barack Obama.



Father of Obama came to US recently, bro. It is only one generation.

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## Shishike

EastSea said:


> You both share the fate with your flags:
> 
> 1. Manchus sold you Hongkong NanYue_ren to Britan , you were slaves of UK.
> 2. Japan won on First Sino-Japan war and Taiwan was part of Japan Empere. You were humiliated again by Japan in WW II.
> 3. Stop tell such joke like " vast majority of the human history, we lead the world ", its wet dream.


interesting, in fact, lots of Vietnamese heroes are Chinese, not Vietnamese. It's easy to find from their family names, so I guess you should learn some correct history first.


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## Rent

Hello People,

I just wanted to pick someone's brain here. 

Beside looking at historical literatures and documentations, has anyone looked at the cardinal directions of what was perceived as North and South during these ancient kingdoms of Qin, Nam Viet and Han? 

2nd Century Han cartographers used South-up maps, where the directions we know of today as "South" was on top and right was West that pointed toward the Pacific Ocean. This may explain why the oriental compass needles points to cardinal South.

During Western Jin, around 267 AD, Jin's Minister/Cartographer flipped the cardinal directions.

Europe, during the Middle Ages used East orientation maps, where Asia is on top, left is Europe and right is Africa. There were no South because it was considered uninhabited.

If there was a Nam Viet Kingdom, was there a Bac Viet Kingdom? If there was a Bac Viet Kingdom or just Viet Kingdom, would it be located North or South of Nam Viet?


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## Viet

Shishike said:


> interesting, in fact, lots of Vietnamese heroes are Chinese, not Vietnamese. It's easy to find from their family names, so I guess you should learn some correct history first.


so if a vietnamese has a chinese surname, so the person is chinese?
are Vietnamese Chinese in reality or vice versa?
are all Americans in reality Germans, or of Irish ethnic or slaves from Africa? so there is no such a state as America?
Many Germans have surnames, which are derived from old ancient Kingdoms. who are they? Italian or Greek?

some studies suggest the first Chinese came from Africa. are you African?
congrat: you are NOT chinese. you are a fake chinese.

or are Vietnamese in reality Taiwanese as the lastest genetic study of Harvard medical school found out?

Reconstructing Austronesian population history in Island Southeast Asia : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group


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## hans

Viet is what the north China people call the south China people two thousands years ago
It covers vast land from Changjiang river to Vietnam, which newly joined the united China country.
These kind of newly joined land will separate and become independent if central government is collapsed
Nam Viet is once also independent but soon rejoin the China.
Vietnam get independent in around 1000 AD and no longer return.
Chinese emperor give the name Vietnam, meaning even south part of Nam Viet.



Rent said:


> Hello People,
> 
> I just wanted to pick someone's brain here.
> 
> Beside looking at historical literatures and documentations, has anyone looked at the cardinal directions of what was perceived as North and South during these ancient kingdoms of Qin, Nam Viet and Han?
> 
> 2nd Century Han cartographers used South-up maps, where the directions we know of today as "South" was on top and right was West that pointed toward the Pacific Ocean. This may explain why the oriental compass needles points to cardinal South.
> 
> During Western Jin, around 267 AD, Jin's Minister/Cartographer flipped the cardinal directions.
> 
> Europe, during the Middle Ages used East orientation maps, where Asia is on top, left is Europe and right is Africa. There were no South because it was considered uninhabited.
> 
> If there was a Nam Viet Kingdom, was there a Bac Viet Kingdom? If there was a Bac Viet Kingdom or just Viet Kingdom, would it be located North or South of Nam Viet?

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## xesy

hans said:


> Viet is what the north China people call the south China people two thousands years ago
> It covers vast land from Changjiang river to Vietnam, which newly joined the united China country.
> These kind of newly joined land will separate and become independent if central government is collapsed
> Nam Viet is once also independent but soon rejoin the China.
> Vietnam get independent in around 1000 AD and no longer return.
> Chinese emperor give the name Vietnam, meaning even south part of Nam Viet.


I will translate the wiki for you

"Vietnam first appeared in Nguyen Dyansty. Gia Long emperor requested the Qing govt to use the name "Nam Viet" but was denied because ancient China had a country with the same name so it was reversed to become Vietnam....
However, there are evidences that Vietnam might appear even before that. Scholar Ho Thong Toc wrote a book called Viet Nam The Chi at the end of 13th century. Nguyen Trai used the word VN many times in his Du Dia Chi during the early 15th century. There are numerous stone marks bearing the word VN around pagodas, temples in North VN, all of which were build around 15-16th centuries."

I want to correct you that Chinese emperor only agreed VN to use that name, not that he gave VN the name.

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## hans

As I said, this name is formerly used as country name for Vietnam since that.
Informal names make no sense...



xesy said:


> "Vietnam first appeared in Nguyen Dyansty. Gia Long emperor requested the Qing govt to use the name "Nam Viet" but was denied because ancient China had a country with the same name so it was reversed to become Vietnam....
> However, there are evidences that Vietnam might appear even before that. Scholar Ho Thong Toc wrote a book called Viet Nam The Chi at the end of 13th century. Nguyen Trai used the word VN many times in his Du Dia Chi during the early 15th century. There are numerous stone marks bearing the word VN around pagodas, temples in North VN, all of which were build around 15-16th centuries.


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## xesy

hans said:


> As I said, this name is formerly used as country name for Vietnam since that.
> Informal names make no sense...


Well, later Minh Mang emperor changed the name to Dai Nam. I guess that is that, huh?


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## hans

But the official name is still Vietnam, right?
All over the world use Vietnam. mean south(Nam) of Viet
Dai(Big) Nam(South) is a very typical name that a smaller country call itself in China.... 



xesy said:


> Well, later Minh Mang emperor changed the name to Dai Nam. I guess that is that, huh?


----------



## xesy

hans said:


> But the official name is still Vietnam, right?
> All over the world use Vietnam. mean south(Nam) of Viet
> Dai(Big) Nam(South) is a very typical name that a smaller country call itself in China....


You mean now or back then? With the Frence came in we all became Anamese FYI.
Of course Minh Mang was a pro-France, so he changed it without Qing govt agreement. He might want to use Dai Nam for the whole French Indochina colony. Too bad the French disagreed.


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## hans

Names are for history.
Even you change to Dai Nam, I think majority will call it Vietnam...
It is used for so many years



xesy said:


> You mean now or back then? With the Frence came in we all became Anamese FYI.
> Of course Minh Mang was a pro-France, so he changed it without Qing govt agreement. He might want to use Dai Nam for the whole French Indochina colony. Too bad the French disagreed.


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## xesy

hans said:


> Names are for history.
> Even you change to Dai Nam, I think majority will call it Vietnam...
> It is used for so many years


Time will change everything. Before people still call Saigon by the old name Gia Dinh, now I don't see anyone use that anymore.


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## hans

Internally yes it can change very fast..
In the world, people still call you Vietnam..



xesy said:


> Time will change everything. Before people still call Saigon by the old name Gia Dinh, now I don't see anyone use that anymore.


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## xesy

hans said:


> Internally yes it can change very fast..
> In the world, people still call you Vietnam..


I doubt it. Because to the West, we were known as Anamese (during the colonial period). When we kicked French ***, they changed to call us VNese. Guess that it always takes something for people to change, right?

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## hans

Not sure how others call you
In China it is not changed at all...



xesy said:


> I doubt it. Because to the West, we were known as Anamese (during the colonial period). When we kicked French ***, they changed to call us VNese. Guess that it always takes something for people to change, right?


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## Shishike

Chinese is based on the culture not the race, as a teacher, we teach Vietnamese so much things, whatever tradition or religion, but still when you guys needed us to protect you, we were/would be there.
Fine, you call it aggression, but in lots of history books in Chinese, even wrote by Vietnamese government at that moment, you guys asked us to be there for help you people.
Overall, you should know, the culture is not completed without Vietnam. You are a part of Chinese culture, not an independent one. 
We are family, back to us, back to using Chinese words.



Viet said:


> so if a vietnamese has a chinese surname, so the person is chinese?
> are Vietnamese Chinese in reality or vice versa?
> are all Americans in reality Germans, or of Irish ethnic or slaves from Africa? so there is no such a state as America?
> Many Germans have surnames, which are derived from old ancient Kingdoms. who are they? Italian or Greek?
> 
> some studies suggest the first Chinese came from Africa. are you African?
> congrat: you are NOT chinese. you are a fake chinese.
> 
> or are Vietnamese in reality Taiwanese as the lastest genetic study of Harvard medical school found out?


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## Rechoice

Shishike said:


> Chinese is based on the culture not the race, as a teacher, we teach Vietnamese so much things, whatever tradition or religion, but still when you guys needed us to protect you, we were/would be there.
> Fine, you call it aggression, but in lots of history books in Chinese, even wrote by Vietnamese government at that moment, you guys asked us to be there for help you people.
> Overall, you should know, the culture is not completed without Vietnam. You are a part of Chinese culture, not an independent one.
> We are family, back to us, back to using Chinese words.



It is wet dream, bro.

Problem is that Viet regained independence from China, But Nan Yue, Min Yue, Yelang , Dian guo, Nan Chao ...can not.

Culturally Confucius is influenced in Vietnam like Marxism, Buddhism etc. and now it is a westerner values.

We speak Mon/Khmer language not Sino-Tibetan language.



hans said:


> Not sure how others call you
> In China it is not changed at all...



what is funny here, An Nan Guo in the past and now Vietnam. Vietnamese was Jiao Zhi people in the past and become Kinh ren in ethnicity nowaday in Vietnam.

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## xesy

Shishike said:


> Chinese is based on the culture not the race, as a teacher, we teach Vietnamese so much things, whatever tradition or religion, but still when you guys needed us to protect you, we were/would be there.
> Fine, you call it aggression, but in lots of history books in Chinese, even wrote by Vietnamese government at that moment, you guys asked us to be there for help you people.
> Overall, you should know, the culture is not completed without Vietnam. You are a part of Chinese culture, not an independent one.
> We are family, back to us, back to using Chinese words.


There is a misunderstanding here. Even though we did use Chinese characters for writing for a long time, VN still has its own language. As a heavily-Chinese-influenced country, it was easier for us to pick up an already existing writing system instead of creating our own. VNese culture is proud to be the mix of all cultures which belongs to other countries. Nowadays, few people speak "pure VNese". A bit of Chinese, Japanese, English, French words can be heard here and there. You can't say VN is part of this country or that country because there are images of other cultures in ours.


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## dichoi

Rent said:


> Europe, during the Middle Ages used East orientation maps, where Asia is on top, left is Europe and right is Africa. There were no South because it was considered uninhabited.



In the past, ancient map of Vietnam orientation is that : on top is Laos (west) and in right is China (north) and in bottom is East sea (east) of Vietnam ( Pacific Ocean).

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## Edison Chen

Rechoice said:


> It is true, I have it then I'm not permitted by my doctor to eat dog meat..


It's also a kind of 'hot' meat, you can eat it in winter but never in summer.


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## Rechoice

Edison Chen said:


> It's also a kind of 'hot' meat, you can eat it in winter but never in summer.



Thanks for ur advice. I have been given up. In my business, I have some Guan xi with some VIP, I have to invite them to restaurant, there is not available dog meat.

You are living in Zhangsha, I think people in Hunan don't have habitat to eat dog meat.It is good for you.

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## Rent

dichoi said:


> In the past, ancient map of Vietnam orientation is that : on top is Laos (west) and in right is China (north) and in bottom is East sea (east) of Vietnam ( Pacific Ocean).



Nice. 

Below is another map dated 1834 of Vietnam showing the same orientation as you have mentioned, but both maps are of later dates. I am wondering about the cardinal directions used during 2nd Century.





Below is another map dated around 206BC to 9AD, excavated from the tomb site at Changsa, Hunan, China known as King Ma's Mound to which it was believed and recorded by historians and scholars for centuries to be the burial place of King Ma. But through excavation it was discovered to be actually the tomb of Marquis Li Cang. The name of the tomb site, however, remain to this day. 

It is hard to make out from the photo, but the map depict the boundary between Changsa Kingdom (Chu-Han or Western Han) and Nam Viet Kingdom. Nam Viet is orientated at the top of the map. Theoretically speaking, if there is a Southern Viet Kingdom, surely there must be a Northern Viet or just Viet Kingdom to start with, since this is a common naming convention for kingdoms. According to the orientation of the map below, it should be located on top of Nam Viet, if so, this is where Vietnam is today. Right?

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## Rent

hans said:


> Viet is what the north China people call the south China people two thousands years ago
> It covers vast land from Changjiang river to Vietnam, which newly joined the united China country.
> These kind of newly joined land will separate and become independent if central government is collapsed
> Nam Viet is once also independent but soon rejoin the China.
> Vietnam get independent in around 1000 AD and no longer return.
> Chinese emperor give the name Vietnam, meaning even south part of Nam Viet.



Thanks.


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## dichoi

Rent said:


> Nice.
> 
> Below is another map dated 1834 of Vietnam showing the same orientation as you have mentioned, but both maps are of later dates. I am wondering about the cardinal directions used during 2nd Century.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below is another map dated around 206BC to 9AD, excavated from the tomb site at Changsa, Hunan, China known as King Ma's Mound to which it was believed and recorded by historians and scholars for centuries to be the burial place of King Ma. But through excavation it was discovered to be actually the tomb of Marquis Li Cang. The name of the tomb site, however, remain to this day.
> 
> It is hard to make out from the photo, but the map depict the boundary between Changsa Kingdom (Chu-Han or Western Han) and Nam Viet Kingdom. Nam Viet is orientated at the top of the map. Theoretically speaking, if there is a Southern Viet Kingdom, surely there must be a Northern Viet or just Viet Kingdom to start with, since this is a common naming convention for kingdoms. According to the orientation of the map below, it should be located on top of Nam Viet, if so, this is where Vietnam is today. Right?



Yes. Original orientation of map Vietnam 1834 is looks like this.






I don't know about ancient map founded in China you posted above.

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## Rent

dichoi said:


> Yes. Original orientation of map Vietnam 1834 is looks like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about ancient map founded in China you posted above.



Here is the reconstruction drawing of the map.








You can use Google map to compare, but you will have flip this map upside in order to do so because the map is oriented with south to the top, 

It corresponds to parts of the modern provinces of Hunan, Guangdong and Guangxi with 桃陽 (modern Quanzhou 全州) in the bottom right (northwest corner), 舂陵 (modern Xintian 新田) in the bottom left (northeast corner), and 桂陽 (modern Lianzhou 連州) near the top left (southeast corner).


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## dichoi

Rent said:


> Here is the reconstruction drawing of the map.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can use Google map to compare, but you will have flip this map upside in order to do so because the map is oriented with south to the top,
> 
> It corresponds to parts of the modern provinces of Hunan, Guangdong and Guangxi with 桃陽 (modern Quanzhou 全州) in the bottom right (northwest corner), 舂陵 (modern Xintian 新田) in the bottom left (northeast corner), and 桂陽 (modern Lianzhou 連州) near the top left (southeast corner).



I found it Ma wang Dui in en.wiki 馬(马)王堆. In case of such Han Zi 桃陽, 舂陵, 桂陽 is existed, it is reliable.


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## hans

Right, as a mature writing system, Chinese character is used by many countries around China like Japan, Korea and Vietnam.
The problem is that writing and oral language cannot match.
Even in China, most people speak different language.
China only solve this problem by use Mandarin Chinese since last century..
And other country invent their own writing system to match their local language 



xesy said:


> There is a misunderstanding here. Even though we did use Chinese characters for writing for a long time, VN still has its own language. As a heavily-Chinese-influenced country, it was easier for us to pick up an already existing writing system instead of creating our own. VNese culture is proud to be the mix of all cultures which belongs to other countries. Nowadays, few people speak "pure VNese". A bit of Chinese, Japanese, English, French words can be heard here and there. You can't say VN is part of this country or that country because there are images of other cultures in ours.


----------



## xesy

hans said:


> Right, as a mature writing system, Chinese character is used by many countries around China like Japan, Korea and Vietnam.
> The problem is that writing and oral language cannot match.
> Even in China, most people speak different language.
> China only solve this problem by use Mandarin Chinese since last century..
> And other country invent their own writing system to match their local language


It is either inventing or adapting. Modern VN was influenced much more by French culture in the early 20th century so of course when choosing a new writing system, our leaders chose latins over mandarin.


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## hans

But it is a big of strange that Asia country using Latin letters for their language.
I am not sure if there is old Vietnam writing system before French 



xesy said:


> It is either inventing or adapting. Modern VN was influenced much more by French culture in the early 20th century so of course when choosing a new writing system, our leaders chose latins over mandarin.


----------



## xesy

hans said:


> But it is a big of strange that Asia country using Latin letters for their language.
> I am not sure if there is old Vietnam writing system before French


There were Nom, which is actually Chinese. Many minor VN ethics have their own languages, but no writing systems. Normally, they used to hire those knowing how to write and read to write documents for them, like receipts or family trees, of course in mandarin.


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## hans

Mandarin is the national speaking language, only oral language
For writing system, we have traditional and simplified Chinese character..
So it is traditional Chinese that are used by Vietnam, Korea, etc..
And China simplify it for ordinary people to learn.
So finally there is a match of writing and speaking language(simplified Chinese character with Mandarin).
Learning traditional Chinese characters are painful.. 



xesy said:


> There were Nom, which is actually Chinese. Many minor VN ethics have their own languages, but no writing systems. Normally, they used to hire those knowing how to write and read to write documents for them, like receipts or family trees, of course in mandarin.


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## xesy

hans said:


> Mandarin is the national speaking language, only oral language
> For writing system, we have traditional and simplified Chinese character..
> So it is traditional Chinese that are used by Vietnam, Korea, etc..
> And China simplify it for ordinary people to learn.
> So finally there is a match of writing and speaking language(simplified Chinese character with Mandarin).
> Learning traditional Chinese characters are painful..


Our ancestor writing was also the traditional Chinese character. My grandfather was a shaman so he could write a lot. Too bad none of my uncles and aunt can write though.


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## hans

It`s the change of history and language...
We young Chinese people can also hardly write traditional Chinese character..
But we can still read. Chinese is simplified in a certain manner that you can read it after short training.
If cannot read what your ancestor write, you will lose your history..




xesy said:


> Our ancestor writing was also the traditional Chinese character. My grandfather was a shaman so he could write a lot. Too bad none of my uncles and aunt can write though.



Also I think Vietnam is supposed to be another place for Chinese people to tour..
Traditional tour destination like Thailand is full of Chinese..
People are looking for new place like Vietnam..
Yet the tension between two countries ruin it...
I wish the relationship can return to normal and I have the chance to visit Vietnam..



xesy said:


> Our ancestor writing was also the traditional Chinese character. My grandfather was a shaman so he could write a lot. Too bad none of my uncles and aunt can write though.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> are you nuts?
> ok man then why not try trinking blood and eating a live heart of a cobra as well? as special and very expensive dish in VN



You know too much.

Yum~


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## xesy

hans said:


> It`s the change of history and language...
> We young Chinese people can also hardly write traditional Chinese character..
> But we can still read. Chinese is simplified in a certain manner that you can read it after short training.
> If cannot read what your ancestor write, you will lose your history..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I think Vietnam is supposed to be another place for Chinese people to tour..
> Traditional tour destination like Thailand is full of Chinese..
> People are looking for new place like Vietnam..
> Yet the tension between two countries ruin it...
> I wish the relationship can return to normal and I have the chance to visit Vietnam..


It's not that bad already. I have a cousin who works as a driver for VN-Chinese tourism agency. Even when the tension was at the peak, he was still busy driving groups after groups of Chinese tourists back and forth.


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## Rent

hans said:


> But it is a big of strange that Asia country using Latin letters for their language.
> I am not sure if there is old Vietnam writing system before French





xesy said:


> There were Nom, which is actually Chinese. Many minor VN ethics have their own languages, but no writing systems. Normally, they used to hire those knowing how to write and read to write documents for them, like receipts or family trees, of course in mandarin.



I would like to add that learning how to write or having a formal education was reserved only for the elites and scholars in feudal Asia. Some may only have a few years of education or may pick up a few commonly used scripts through their life, just enough for everyday use, but not enough to write a formal letter and document. 

While Nôm script was well developed by scholars, one must first learn the Confucian script in order to use Nôm script. This is because Nôm script is both phonetic and semantic at the same time. Most people did not have the luxury to learn and remember either script. 

Latin Alphabet, in the other hand, only have twenty something letters to remember and is based on phonetic rather than semantic. Most commoner can pick this up easily as the Jesuit missionaries provided free schooling for children.

Alexander the Rhodes was the French Jesuit who wrote the first Vietnamese Catechism. He spent 10 years in Vietnam from 1620 to 1630 and published the first Portuguese-Latin-Vietnamese dictionary while serving in the court of the Trịnh Lords.

I was told that there once was a monument to commemorate his achievements in Vietnam, however, it was unknowingly destroyed during the climax of the Vietnam war. The existence of a monument for him is now just a rumor.

Be that as it may, as quality of life and cost of living improves, we will definitely see more people gazing their interest in learning the old Nôm script and Confucian script on their free time as evidenced in this forum.



dichoi said:


> Base on Family Tree of Trần clan in Vietnam, who are direct descent of Tran Dynasty Emperor, It stated that the ancestor of Tran clan was named Tran Minh he has been came to Vietnam from period of Qin invasion before time of Zhao Tuo founded Nan Yue Guo.
> 
> In the same case of Barack Obama.



Very interesting.

Giao Chỉ is one of 15 province of Văn Lang nation of the Lạc Việt during the Hùng Vương era of Hồng Bàng Dynasty (2879 to 258 BC), which predate Qin. Although, I didn't know that the House of Trần could trace their ancestry to the time of Qin as you stated. I thought they could only trace their lineage back to Trần Lý, the head of the Trần clan in Lưu Gia village, of Giao Chỉ province, which is Hưng Hà District, Thái Bình, in Việt Nam today. 

Would you be able to share the source for this with me? I find it very hard to believe. With exposer to the open elements and handling, most pages in any record will suffer from abiotic and biotic decomposition.


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## hans

Haha..
I wish to visit the coast city in Vietnam..
Vietnam has a lot of coast city with beautiful view



xesy said:


> It's not that bad already. I have a cousin who works as a driver for VN-Chinese tourism agency. Even when the tension was at the peak, he was still busy driving groups after groups of Chinese tourists back and forth.


----------



## Viet

hans said:


> It`s the change of history and language...
> We young Chinese people can also hardly write traditional Chinese character..
> But we can still read. Chinese is simplified in a certain manner that you can read it after short training.
> If cannot read what your ancestor write, you will lose your history..
> 
> Also I think Vietnam is supposed to be another place for Chinese people to tour..
> Traditional tour destination like Thailand is full of Chinese..
> People are looking for new place like Vietnam..
> Yet the tension between two countries ruin it...
> I wish the relationship can return to normal and I have the chance to visit Vietnam..


my zhongguo friend, you are welcome to Vietnam. But I am afraid you are lonely.
if judging posts of your comrades here and on other forums, Vietnam is a jungle and our people are monkeys.

also, I am little tired of such things.


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## hans

Well, you also have friend like @NiceGuy that speak badly about each other...
And if we continue quarreling like this, this will surely become boring...
why not focus on something interesting like electronics, food, travel, girls than the boring nationalism quarrel...
This make both side happy..



Viet said:


> my zhongguo friend, you are welcome to Vietnam. But I am afraid you are lonely.
> if judging posts of your comrades here and on other forums, Vietnam is a jungle and our people are monkeys.
> 
> also, I am little tired of such things.

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## Viet

hans said:


> Well, you also have friend like @NiceGuy that speak badly about each other...
> And if we continue quarreling like this, this will surely become boring...
> why not focus on something interesting like electronics, food, travel, *girls *than the boring nationalism quarrel...
> This make both side happy..


no everything but girls, otherwise we will get tons of trollers and racistic posts here


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## xesy

hans said:


> Haha..
> I wish to visit the coast city in Vietnam..
> Vietnam has a lot of coast city with beautiful view


You are welcome. I suggest you spend your time in southern coastal cities. The food tastes better and the sea is more beautiful. The weather is also great for swimming.


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## dichoi

Rent said:


> Very interesting.
> Giao Chỉ is one of 15 province of Văn Lang nation of the Lạc Việt during the Hùng Vương era of Hồng Bàng Dynasty (2879 to 258 BC), which predate Qin. Although, I didn't know that the House of Trần could trace their ancestry to the time of Qin as you stated. I thought they could only trace their lineage back to Trần Lý, the head of the Trần clan in Lưu Gia village, of Giao Chỉ province, which is Hưng Hà District, Thái Bình, in Việt Nam today.
> Would you be able to share the source for this with me? I find it very hard to believe. With exposer to the open elements and handling, most pages in any record will suffer from abiotic and biotic decomposition.



I copy for you here, I think you could read Vietnamese.

*Nguồn gốc*
Căn cứ vào gia phả họ Trần ở Nhạc Dương do thống tôn đời thứ 27 Trần Định Nhân còn lưu giữ được thì gốc tích xa xưa từ đời Chiến quốc, họTrần thuộc nhóm tộc người Bách Việt sống ở đất Mân (Phúc Kiến - Trung Quốc). Năm 227 trước công lịch, Phương chính hầu Trần Tự Minh đang làm quan cho Triệu Đà, vì mâu thuẫn giữa người Hán và người Bách Việt ông đã theo dòng người Bách Việt di cư xuống phía Nam. Tự Minh được vua An Dương Vương thu nạp, trở thành vị tướng tài ba, cùng Cao Lỗ giúp vua chống lại Triệu Đà. Khi thành Cổ Loa thất thủ, Âu Lạc rơi vào tay Triệu Đà, Trần Tự Minh lui về sống ẩn dật ở đất Kinh Bắc. Dòng họ này qua 700 năm ở Kinh Bắc phân ra nhiều nhánh, nhưng dòng thống tôn đến đời Trần Tự Viễn (582 - 637) nổi lên như một nhân tài kiệt xuất của xứ Giao Châu.
....
You can read more here http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nhà_Trần

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Giao Chỉ is one of 15 province of Văn Lang nation of the Lạc Việt during the Hùng Vương era of Hồng Bàng Dynasty (2879 to 258 BC), which predate Qin. Although, I didn't know that the House of Trần could trace their ancestry to the time of Qin as you stated. I thought they could only trace their lineage back to Trần Lý, the head of the Trần clan in Lưu Gia village, of Giao Chỉ province, which is Hưng Hà District, Thái Bình, in Việt Nam today.
> 
> Would you be able to share the source for this with me? I find it very hard to believe. With exposer to the open elements and handling, most pages in any record will suffer from abiotic and biotic decomposition.


Its just another myth that contradicts mainstream archaeology and history.

It has as much value as Noah's ark or the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors period of China ie none whatsoever.


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## mrfly911

hans said:


> Haha..
> I wish to visit the coast city in Vietnam..
> Vietnam has a lot of coast city with beautiful view


I saw a lot of Chinese tourists in Nha Trang, Vietnam this month 
We visited some islands by boat and they joined with us. Everyone was so happy.


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## china-fujian

NiceGuy said:


> VNese in Ukraine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the middle of the village is the Thanh Giong statue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truc Lam pagoda in Kharkov, Ucraine


HI ，Viet.I am so sad when i see the Vietnamese character in the picture。


NiceGuy said:


> VNese in Ukraine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the middle of the village is the Thanh Giong statue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truc Lam pagoda in Kharkov, Ucraine


HI viet：
so sad when see the vienamese charactars in the picture. why not use the chinese charactars on antithetical couplet ，that may be goodlooking and 。Chinese characters is not only belong to China, also belongs to vietnam as well as Japan, Korea, , ,we are all Confucian culture country, Chinese characters are used in vienam for thousands of years. 
Although the mandarin and Vietnamese are not the same, but we can communicate with each other using Chinese characters 。for example I can't say japanese language, when I read the Japanese article and almosetly understand . what they say .Unfortunately, because of various reasons ,now Vietnam and Korea give up Chinese characters,Sincerely hoping recovery chinese characters education one day in your country. Confucian cultural is competitive cultural 。now Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hongkong are developed, only china,vietnam,north Koreawe are developing .China will become developed countries in next 10 year. the gdp will be more than USA， my wishes will soon come true,。 there are no war in Confucian cultural country （china ，japan ，korea，Vietnam）and resolve the disputes between each other peacefully 。


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## Rent

dichoi said:


> I copy for you here, I think you could read Vietnamese.
> 
> Nguồn gốc
> Căn cứ vào gia phả họ Trần ở Nhạc Dương do thống tôn đời thứ 27 Trần Định Nhân còn lưu giữ được thì gốc tích xa xưa từ đời Chiến quốc, họTrần thuộc nhóm tộc người Bách Việt sống ở đất Mân (Phúc Kiến - Trung Quốc). Năm 227 trước công lịch, Phương chính hầu Trần Tự Minh đang làm quan cho Triệu Đà, vì mâu thuẫn giữa người Hán và người Bách Việt ông đã theo dòng người Bách Việt di cư xuống phía Nam. Tự Minh được vua An Dương Vương thu nạp, trở thành vị tướng tài ba, cùng Cao Lỗ giúp vua chống lại Triệu Đà. Khi thành Cổ Loa thất thủ, Âu Lạc rơi vào tay Triệu Đà, Trần Tự Minh lui về sống ẩn dật ở đất Kinh Bắc. Dòng họ này qua 700 năm ở Kinh Bắc phân ra nhiều nhánh, nhưng dòng thống tôn đến đời Trần Tự Viễn (582 - 637) nổi lên như một nhân tài kiệt xuất của xứ Giao Châu.



I usually avoid Wikipedia because I am a bit doubtful of its reliability, and because it is open to the public, anyone can edit it's content. Anyhow, thank you for sharing. Learn something new everyday. Cheers!


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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> Its just another myth that contradicts mainstream archaeology and history.
> 
> It has as much value as Noah's ark or the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors period of China ie none whatsoever.



I agree and disagree at the same time. 

Ancient origin myths and oral histories and folklores, although do not have concrete evidences to back up the claims, help set the course and is the backbone of history for the particular culture and civilization. Sometime it's content may sound too mystical to be true in today's understanding. But, it does open up a partial view of the past and a glimpse through the consciousness of that particular race on how they perceive life.

There are, however, artifacts discovered showing a culture once thrived in this area dating back to the Hong Bang Dynasty. How this culture relates to Hong Bang Dynasty is debatable. The "burning of books and burying of scholars", in 213 - 210 BC edict given by Qin Shihuang, the first Emperor of China, resulted in some lost of History in Central Asia and human knowledge in general.

Furthermore, ancient history of one race may sometime contradict the ancient history, understanding and development of another race, this is because they are in parallel of each other. Cultural advancement and achievements in technologies varies from group to group. Forcing two parallel civilization's history together and expecting them to fit perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle would be ludicrous. Therefore, civilization that lived in parallel of each other can not share the same time line until the two collide and knowledges are exchanged. 

....As a senior member of this forum, this is the part where you would reply to welcome me as a new member. Cheers!!


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## xesy

china-fujian said:


> HI ，Viet.I am so sad when i see the Vietnamese character in the picture。
> 
> HI viet：
> so sad when see the vienamese charactars in the picture. why not use the chinese charactars on antithetical couplet ，that may be goodlooking and 。Chinese characters is not only belong to China, also belongs to vietnam as well as Japan, Korea, , ,we are all Confucian culture country, Chinese characters are used in vienam for thousands of years.
> Although the mandarin and Vietnamese are not the same, but we can communicate with each other using Chinese characters 。for example I can't say japanese language, when I read the Japanese article and almosetly understand . what they say .Unfortunately, because of various reasons ,now Vietnam and Korea give up Chinese characters,Sincerely hoping recovery chinese characters education one day in your country. Confucian cultural is competitive cultural 。now Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hongkong are developed, only china,vietnam,north Koreawe are developing .China will become developed countries in next 10 year. the gdp will be more than USA， my wishes will soon come true,。 there are no war in Confucian cultural country （china ，japan ，korea，Vietnam）and resolve the disputes between each other peacefully 。


I respect your wish. But do you know that Christians believe language is the punishment from God to make human never be able unify as one. I am no Christian but I believe something similar: language is the biggest obstacle against human advancement.

Even though VN and Korea and Japan did use Chinese writting system for a long time, our speaking languages are not Chinese. Using Chinese characters couldn't fully translated all the content of our speaking. Furthermore those used Chinese writting system in the past were mostly elites, and they were only in the small number. The majority of the people didn't know how to read or write. When China fought illiterate, China had to simplify the traditional Chinese. When VN fought illiterate, VN had to adapt to the latin. The main reason was that the dominant culture in VN at that time was French, not Chinese.

Still, I am glad to see some Chinese generous enough to share their culture with us. Sir, I wish you a good day.

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## dichoi

Rent said:


> I usually avoid Wikipedia because I am a bit doubtful of its reliability, and because it is open to the public, anyone can edit it's content. Anyhow, thank you for sharing. Learn something new everyday. Cheers!



I'm doubt too, but what is important for me ?
The Family tree of Trần clan is existed. It did not confirmed what Ngô Sỹ Liên has been written in his work.


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## dahuilang942

HI Vietnam comrade,I am from Guangxi Zhuang people. 
Do you have any questions？@Viet


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## Rent

dichoi said:


> I'm doubt too, but what is important for me ?
> The Family tree of Trần clan is existed. It did not confirmed what Ngô Sỹ Liên has been written in his work.


Again, very interesting. I would love to see the actual family record of the Trần clan.


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## Rent

Hi there dahuilang942,

Does your screen name mean Big Grey Wolf from a popular children book about a wolf and a sheep?

Zhuang people use Sawndip script which are very similar to Nôm script invented in the 12th Century by Vietnamese and was widely used in the 15th to the 19th Century.

Do you know if Zhuang people have an oral tradition of their origin, if so, please kindly share. I would love to hear it. 

Thank you in advance.



dahuilang942 said:


> HI Vietnam comrade,I am from Guangxi Zhuang people.
> Do you have any questions？@Viet


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## xesy

@Rent many Chinese - VNese in the Guangxi border area use neither Chinese or VNese to communicate orally. Instead they use languages of minor ethics who live there, the most common is " tiếng Thổ". I don't know what it called in Chinese or English. Maybe @dahuilang942 can help.

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## Rent

xesy said:


> @Rent many Chinese - VNese in the Guangxi border area use neither Chinese or VNese to communicate orally. Instead they use languages of minor ethics who live there, the most common is " tiếng Thổ". I don't know what it called in Chinese or English. Maybe @dahuilang942 can help.



Thank you for the information, xesy.

"Tiếng Thổ" may be translate as "native tongue" in English.

I was hoping that @dahuilang942 could share the oral history of the origin of his people. If he doesn't mind doing so.


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## dahuilang942

Rent said:


> Hi there dahuilang942,
> 
> Does your screen name mean Big Grey Wolf from a popular children book about a wolf and a sheep?
> 
> Zhuang people use Sawndip script which are very similar to Nôm script invented in the 12th Century by Vietnamese and was widely used in the 15th to the 19th Century.
> 
> Do you know if Zhuang people have an oral tradition of their origin, if so, please kindly share. I would love to hear it.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


--------
Binggo！my name is Da huilang(达 晖郎),same pronunciation as big grey wolf in Chinese，

------------------






this is a inscriptions in my hometown which mix Sawndip& Chinese characters，Dated to 697 AD, the inscription touted the beautiful scenery .


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## dahuilang942

xesy said:


> @Rent many Chinese - VNese in the Guangxi border area use neither Chinese or VNese to communicate orally. Instead they use languages of minor ethics who live there, the most common is " tiếng Thổ". I don't know what it called in Chinese or English. Maybe @dahuilang942 can help.


---------------

*GIn，người Kinh?*


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## xesy

dahuilang942 said:


> ---------------
> 
> *GIn，người Kinh?*


? What do you mean? I am not Kinh BTW. I am Tay. Here is what our traditional woman clothes look like. Maybe you recognize them.








To bad young people rarely wear them any more, and even don't know how to speak the native tongue.

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## dahuilang942

xesy said:


> @Rent many Chinese - VNese in the Guangxi border area use neither Chinese or VNese to communicate orally. Instead they use languages of minor ethics who live there, the most common is " tiếng Thổ". I don't know what it called in Chinese or English. Maybe @dahuilang942 can help.




i guess there are Gin people.

----------
_a food stands in Nanning,Guangxi.“Vietnamese Boy cooking Conch”,In fact there are Gin people.




_


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## William Hung

What do I want to know about VietNam? I would like to know the political and social views of the Vietnamese people here.

Why don't more of you guys take the short political test and copy-paste your results on this thread:

Hey PDF members: Are You Left Wing or Right Wing? Take the Test

There are already plenty of Chinese, Indians and Pakistani members posting their results.

Since VietNam and China have similar political history, I would like to see the comparisons with the new generations, well at least with PDF members.

@NiceGuy @Rechoice @Battle of Bach Dang River @Viet @dichoi @Rent @dahuilang942 @mrfly911 @Carlosa who else??


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## Viet

Black Flag said:


> What do I want to know about VietNam? I would like to know the political and social views of the Vietnamese people here.
> 
> Why don't more of you guys take the short political test and copy-paste your results on this thread:
> 
> Hey PDF members: Are You Left Wing or Right Wing? Take the Test
> 
> There are already plenty of Chinese, Indians and Pakistani members posting their results.
> 
> Since VietNam and China have similar political history, I would like to see the comparisons with the new generations, well at least with PDF members.
> 
> @NiceGuy @Rechoice @Battle of Bach Dang River @Viet @dichoi @Rent @dahuilang942 @mrfly911 @Carlosa who else??


ha ha ha...what is your intention? tell me where do you come first?



dahuilang942 said:


> ---------------
> 
> *GIn，người Kinh?*


basically yes, gin or jing or kinh people are sinized, unlike other barbarians...or ethnics.


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## dichoi

xesy said:


> ? What do you mean? I am not Kinh BTW. I am Tay. Here is what our traditional woman clothes look like. Maybe you recognize them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To bad young people rarely wear them any more, and even don't know how to speak the native tongue.



Are you Tay in native ethnic group ? very interesting.


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## Viet

xesy said:


> @Rent many Chinese - VNese in the Guangxi border area use neither *Chinese or VNese to communicate orally*. Instead they use languages of minor ethics who live there, the most common is " tiếng Thổ". I don't know what it called in Chinese or English. Maybe @dahuilang942 can help.


cool, I did not know it.

I just look up a bit, tiếng Thổ is language which has a root in Mongolia.
Người Thổ (Trung Quốc) – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


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## William Hung

Viet said:


> ha ha ha...what is your intention? tell me where do you come first?



What is my intention? like I said, I'm just interested to know your perspective. I've already posted my result there to let you know my views. 

Where do I came from? Leveragedbuyout would probably say that I'm sitting in a university campus in a western country smoking pot, slacking off, and dreaming about some leftist utopia. He would be half right.

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## Rechoice

Viet said:


> cool, I did not know it.
> 
> I just look up a bit, tiếng Thổ is language which has a root in Mongolia.
> Người Thổ (Trung Quốc) – Wikipedia tiếng Việt



I don't think so. Tay people in Vietnam speak Tai/Katay language. So my friend is Tay too, when we dropped in Bangkok he could also communicated with Thai people fluently.

http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Người_Tày


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## Viet

dahuilang942 said:


> HI Vietnam comrade,I am from Guangxi *Zhuang *people.
> Do you have any questions？@Viet


is Zhuang non-Han?


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## Aepsilons

Black Flag said:


> What is my intention? like I said, I'm just interested to know your perspective. I've already posted my result there to let you know my views.
> 
> Where do I came from? Leveragedbuyout would probably say that I'm sitting in a university campus in a western country smoking pot, slacking off, and dreaming about some leftist utopia. He would be half right.



So why would you need to criticize his interpretation in your last post in that thread ? When, considering the light of the situation and in your own admission, his posted view carried truth.

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## tonyget

What's Hmong's status in Vietnam ?


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## dahuilang942

I m Zhuang.my Cousin is Han,


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## William Hung

Nihonjin1051 said:


> So why would you need to criticize his interpretation in your last post in that thread ? When, considering the light of the situation and in your own admission, his posted view carried truth.



Because I said he would only be half right. For example, I don't smoke pot. And I'm not representative of the majority of young adults.


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## Aepsilons

dahuilang942 said:


> I m Zhuang.my Cousin is Han,



And what language do the Zhuang people speak? Does it have any variance in lexical composition to the Southern Chinese dialects (Cantonese, Hokien) ?


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## xesy

Viet said:


> cool, I did not know it.
> 
> I just look up a bit, tiếng Thổ is language which has a root in Mongolia.
> Người Thổ (Trung Quốc) – Wikipedia tiếng Việt


Even the wiki state that they have no relation with Tho ethic in VN. I don't think they are the same.



dichoi said:


> Are you Tay in native ethnic group ? very interesting.


Both my parent are Tay. Me and my brother are Tay too. We don't know how to speak our native tongue though. That's a shame. 2 major disadvantages when learning native tongue are that their is no writing to record it, and more and more people speak Kinh instead of Tay.


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## Aepsilons

Black Flag said:


> Because I said he would only be half right. For example, I don't smoke pot. And I'm not representative of the majority of young adults.



I actually found @LeveragedBuyout 's interpretation of results and examples to be quite accurate. Of course you're not representative of majority of young adults, there are too many independent variable to be measured in such a large population , and one


xesy said:


> ? What do you mean? I am not Kinh BTW. I am Tay. Here is what our traditional woman clothes look like. Maybe you recognize them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To bad young people rarely wear them any more, and even don't know how to speak the native tongue.



How interesting. So you are a Tay ethnic? Is this ethnic group related to the Tai ethnic group found in Yunnan province ? Do you speak a dialect (variant) of the Tai Kadai linguistic family? Can you understand Lao and Thai words ?

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## dahuilang942

Nihonjin1051 said:


> And what language do the Zhuang people speak? Does it have any variance in lexical composition to the Southern Chinese dialects (Cantonese, Hokien) ?



-------
Zhuang people speak national language,Guangxi is a region where many ethnic people live together, lot of Cantonese and han words mix in Zhuang language.like another local people,also Zhuang people can speak many dialect,i can speak in Cantonese,Zhuang,Southwest mandarin.


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## Aepsilons

dahuilang942 said:


> -------
> Zhuang people speak national language,Guangxi is a region where many ethnic people live together, lot of Cantonese and han words mix in Zhuang language.like another local people,also Zhuang people can speak many dialect,i can speak in Cantonese,Zhuang,Southwest mandarin.



Thank You, quite interesting.


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## Viet

dahuilang942 said:


> -------
> *Zhuang *people speak national language,Guangxi is a region where many ethnic people live together, lot of Cantonese and han words mix in Zhuang language.like another local people,also Zhuang people can speak many dialect,i can speak in Cantonese,Zhuang,Southwest mandarin.


I wonder why Zhuang poeple are considered as Non-Han?
are you non-sinized?


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## William Hung

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I actually found @LeveragedBuyout 's interpretation of results and examples to be quite accurate. Of course you're not representative of majority of young adults, there are too many independent variable to be measured in such a large population , and one



Maybe you found Leveragedbuyout's interpretation accurate because both of you have similar background. Living in a developed country and are relatively well off. 

A western developed country is not representative of the whole world. You guys are minority, the developing/third world is the majority. And even inside your developed nation, the Middle class is only one segment of your society. 

I'm originally from a developing country. To be honest, third world people like us posting so much on forums are probably only the minority of our countrymen. But even if I'm a minority, I still know what the majority is like. I've seen hard working family have to stop their 16-17yrs children from goin to school and send them to work because family financial hardship. Sometime, there are younger kids, going to school and help family work. I've seen very intelligent kids, hard working and do well in school, can't afford to go higher education or have to drop out. And I bet the developing countries in Africa and South America is probably worst. There are lots of people who work hard and are intelligent, but cannot rise up without assistance from government. And without government regulation, their situation can be exploited by outside people. 

This is the real situation of the majority world. The society that you and LeveragedBuyout live in, are only the minority. 

You ask earlier in that thread (sorry I didn't reply it earlier) why so many Indians, Pakistani, Viet and Chinese members are left wing? well maybe this is the reason, we grew up in a developing countries and see these situation and know what is needed. 

I think it wasn't a coincidence that only you, a Japanese, an American and a Filipino (along with a few other outliers) are right wing.

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## dahuilang942

Viet said:


> I wonder why Zhuang poeple are considered as Non-Han?
> are you non-sinized?


------------
Most time Zhuang no different between Han People.


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## Viet

Black Flag said:


> Maybe you found Leveragedbuyout's interpretation accurate because both of you have similar background. Living in a developed country and are relatively well off.
> 
> A western developed country is not representative of the whole world. You guys are minority, the developing/third world is the majority. And even inside your developed nation, the Middle class is only one segment of your society.
> 
> I'm originally from a developing country. To be honest, third world people like us posting so much on forums are probably only the minority of our countrymen. But even if I'm a minority, I still know what the majority is like. I've seen hard working family have to stop their 16-17yrs children from goin to school and send them to work because family financial hardship. Sometime, there are younger kids, going to school and help family work. I've seen very intelligent kids, hard working and do well in school, can't afford to go higher education or have to drop out. And I bet the developing countries in Africa and South America is probably worst. There are lots of people who work hard and are intelligent, but cannot rise up without assistance from government. And without government regulation, their situation can be exploited by outside people.
> 
> This is the real situation of the majority world. The society that you and LeveragedBuyout live in, are only the minority.
> 
> You ask earlier in that thread (sorry I didn't reply it earlier) why so many Indians, Pakistani, Viet and Chinese members are left wing? well maybe this is the reason, we grew up in a developing countries and see these situation and know what is needed.
> 
> I think it wasn't a coincidence that only you, a Japanese, an American and a Filipino (along with a few other outliers) are right wing.


care to explain why do you think most Viet members are left wing?
I consider myself liberal. I like the idea of liberalism. Your poll will never detect this.

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## William Hung

Viet said:


> care to explain why do you think most Viet members are left wing?
> I consider myself liberal. I like the idea of liberalism. Your poll will never detect this.





Viet said:


> care to explain why do you think most Viet members are left wing?
> I consider myself liberal. I like the idea of liberalism. Your poll will never detect this.



I was referring to that thread where Nihonjin and I were talking about the trend and how the majority, including Chinese and Viet members, we're leaning left with their results. Well, there were only two Viet members showing their results but both were leftist. 

Just do the test, it doesn't take long. It's actually not so accurate but it gives a good reference point for us to compare with each other. It's only for fun. 

Are you scared that your Viet buddies will reject you if your result turned out right leaning??

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## Viet

Black Flag said:


> I was referring to that thread where Nihonjin and I were talking about the trend and how the majority, including Chinese and Viet members, we're leaning left with their results. Well, there were only two Viet members showing their results but both were leftist.
> 
> Just do the test, it doesn't take long. It's actually not so accurate but it gives a good reference point for us to compare with each other. It's only for fun.
> 
> Are you scared that your Viet buddies will reject you if your result turned out right leaning??


I have no interest of such test. you have no idea how Vietnamese see themselves and the world. left/right-wing is not the category.


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## NiceGuy

Black Flag said:


> I was referring to that thread where Nihonjin and I were talking about the trend and how the majority, including Chinese and Viet members, we're leaning left with their results. Well, there were only two Viet members showing their results but both were leftist.
> 
> Just do the test, it doesn't take long. It's actually not so accurate but it gives a good reference point for us to compare with each other. It's only for fun.
> 
> Are you scared that your Viet buddies will reject you if your result turned out right leaning??


VN have only one party, many of us simply dont understand (or dont care) what is left wing or right wing . We will support any party that can defeat the enemy, thats it.


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## Aepsilons

NiceGuy said:


> VN have only one party, many of us simply dont understand (or dont care) what is left wing or right wing . We will support any party that can defeat the enemy, thats it.



Poignant. This is just the case in most socialist states; the personal choice in leadership is mitigated.


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## Schutz

What are people like generally in Vietnam, I have a friend in Laos and the locals all seem pretty cool from what she told me and shes even dating one..a white woman dating an Asian.

WHAT A WORLD WE LIVE IN


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## Aepsilons

Black Flag said:


> Maybe you found Leveragedbuyout's interpretation accurate because both of you have similar background. Living in a developed country and are relatively well off.
> 
> A western developed country is not representative of the whole world. You guys are minority, the developing/third world is the majority. And even inside your developed nation, the Middle class is only one segment of your society.
> 
> I'm originally from a developing country. To be honest, third world people like us posting so much on forums are probably only the minority of our countrymen. But even if I'm a minority, I still know what the majority is like. I've seen hard working family have to stop their 16-17yrs children from goin to school and send them to work because family financial hardship. Sometime, there are younger kids, going to school and help family work. I've seen very intelligent kids, hard working and do well in school, can't afford to go higher education or have to drop out. And I bet the developing countries in Africa and South America is probably worst. There are lots of people who work hard and are intelligent, but cannot rise up without assistance from government. And without government regulation, their situation can be exploited by outside people.
> 
> This is the real situation of the majority world. The society that you and LeveragedBuyout live in, are only the minority.
> 
> You ask earlier in that thread (sorry I didn't reply it earlier) why so many Indians, Pakistani, Viet and Chinese members are left wing? well maybe this is the reason, we grew up in a developing countries and see these situation and know what is needed.
> 
> I think it wasn't a coincidence that only you, a Japanese, an American and a Filipino (along with a few other outliers) are right wing.




I don't think that living in a fairly developed country could have any effect on overall perception because there were some members who live in the West yet still scored left leaning. In addition, there was another member, @Cossack25A1 who is Filipino and lives in a country that is not in the developmental level or even in HDI scale as that of Japan and the United States (or any other post-industrialized power at that), yet he still was right authoritarian. My view is that societal norms , governmental policy as well as filial dynamic are determining factors here. Given, my score, alone, is not generalizable to the entire Japanese population, unless we were to conduct the same test on say at least another 10 or so Japanese members. Or even more as the greater the sample pool leads to the greater the power. 

I find commonality with some economic principles espoused by Republicans and Libertarians. I adhere to market economics, and support limited government intervention in fiscal policy, whilst I also adhere to the traditional definition of marriage, the traditional definition of the family unit, which is based on the Judeo-Christian concept of moral and ethos, which is rather similar to the Japanese concept of social Confucianism and social Bushido constructs. Thus the score reflects my stance as being both fiscally and socially conservative.


----------



## Rechoice

北國之春 said:


> Vietnam now development is also good, but with China against only a dead end.



don't say idiot thing here. only China threat and bully Viet, kid.


----------



## Rent

Your name is [达] Đạt [晖] Huy [郎] Lang if written out in Vietnamese.

Sawndip Script looks very complex. Written during the early Tang Dynasty. 

Was there a reason to move from old Sawndip Script to Alphabetical Zhuang Script? Which script are more in use by Zhuang people? 



dahuilang942 said:


> --------
> Binggo！my name is Da huilang(达 晖郎),same pronunciation as big grey wolf in Chinese，
> 
> ------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is a inscriptions in my hometown which mix Sawndip& Chinese characters，Dated to 697 AD, the inscription touted the beautiful scenery .


----------



## Rent

Hi there, Bắc Quốc Chi Xuân.

So Vietnam is in good development and China is against a dead-end? Is this what you are trying to say? 

I don't understand your sentence. Can you elaborate more on it?



北國之春 said:


> Vietnam now development is also good, but with China against only a dead end.


----------



## Danny2014

I just got back from a two weeks trip in Beijing and Linye. The people over there are mostly cool and nice as heck. Not sure why they Chinese here on this website are bunch of assholes.


----------



## Rechoice

dahuilang942 said:


> I m Zhuang.my Cousin is Han,



Are you proud for that ?



Danny2014 said:


> I just got back from a two weeks trip in Beijing and Linye. The people over there are mostly cool and nice as heck. Not sure why they Chinese here on this website are bunch of assholes.



most of aggressive Chinese members here on DPF belong to southern Chinese or oversea Chinese, they tried portray themselves truer Han Chinese than Han Chinese in Zhong Yuan.


----------



## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I agree and disagree at the same time.
> 
> Ancient origin myths and oral histories and folklores, although do not have concrete evidences to back up the claims, help set the course and is the backbone of history for the particular culture and civilization. Sometime it's content may sound too mystical to be true in today's understanding. But, it does open up a partial view of the past and a glimpse through the consciousness of that particular race on how they perceive life.
> 
> There are, however, artifacts discovered showing a culture once thrived in this area dating back to the Hong Bang Dynasty. How this culture relates to Hong Bang Dynasty is debatable. The "burning of books and burying of scholars", in 213 - 210 BC edict given by Qin Shihuang, the first Emperor of China, resulted in some lost of History in Central Asia and human knowledge in general.
> 
> Furthermore, ancient history of one race may sometime contradict the ancient history, understanding and development of another race, this is because they are in parallel of each other. Cultural advancement and achievements in technologies varies from group to group. Forcing two parallel civilization's history together and expecting them to fit perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle would be ludicrous. Therefore, civilization that lived in parallel of each other can not share the same time line until the two collide and knowledges are exchanged.
> 
> ....As a senior member of this forum, this is the part where you would reply to welcome me as a new member. Cheers!!


Where are my manners,while this forum has its fair share of vitriolic nationalists/irredentists there's still some reasonable members,but welcome to this forum.

Uncorroborated sources/mythology don't fly in the academic community,therefore they shouldn't be used as a legitimate substitute for primary/secondary sources.

While it is possible that individuals rooted in mythology might represent a set of ideals or a tribe or that some sort of conflict emerged between several parties however they are heavily embellished and contain anachronistic terminology. 

That's the issue you can't attach prehistoric cultures to a later day fabrication,Chinese historians use the Erlitou culture as "proof" for the Xia dynasty however there's no evidence of writing therefore its not recognized by Western historians.

The same reason why the Shang dynasty was put under heavy scrutiny until oracle bones were found to record Shang era events and Shang imperial lineage.

Qin Shihuang's book burning have nothing to do with Van Lang/Hong Bang they were too distant to know of each other,neither did the Spring Autumn/Warring States maintain close contacts with Central Asians.

Hong Bang dynasty is a complete sham made by Vietnamese to prove that they are an older civilization and origin of Chinese culture.

1.Material culture is not indicative of suzerainty ie Dong Son bronze drums spread throughout parts of southern China as well as southeast Asia however there existed an independent tradition in Shizaishan. Many foreign cultures adopted Chinese culture and imported Chinese swords,mirrors as well as bells however this doesn't make them Chinese.

2.Chinese terminology as well as mimicry ie the terminology of Phong Chau is erroneous as it couldn't possibly have existed until the Sui-Tang era where 州 was redefined,as well as this famous passage:
東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南至狐猻精國（今占城是也）。
To the East it bordered the Southern sea,the west BaShu to the North Dong Ting Lake and to the South Hu Sun(Champa).

Is just ripping off the Huayang Guozhi.

3.The lack of Chinese sources indicating a powerful kingdom to the south or archaeological evidence of a bureaucracy that ruled southern China from Vietnam,writing etc.

4.Linguistics:Southern China had Austronesians,Tai Kadai,Austro Asiatics,Tibeto Burmans as well as Miao Yao speakers how can they all be Vietnamese?

5.No other ethnicity has myths of Hung Kings,a powerful country would surely leave behind descendants all over Southern China.

This is just the tip of the iceberg there are plenty of other evidence that contradicts the medieval Vietnamese narrative.

The issue is that Dong Son culture faded away after Chinese culture supplanted it and that it barely influenced other cultures,the bronze drums which the Vietnamese hold great pride over today were viewed as relics of barbarians by medieval Vietnamese.

Chinese legacy is widespread despite how Vietnamese want to deny it today ie historically Vietnamese surnames,architecture,bureaucracy,philosophy,linguistics,clothing,script were all heavily influenced by Chinese cultures.

Vietnamese claiming that they had a civilization that matched the Chinese in influence and territory is ridiculous,it would be like saying the Germanic tribes the Romans faced were the origins of the of the Romans.



Rechoice said:


> most of aggressive Chinese members here on DPF belong to southern Chinese or oversea Chinese, they tried portray themselves truer Han Chinese than Han Chinese in Zhong Yuan.


There's no such as true Han Chinese,tell me are Northern,Central or Southern Vietnamese more Kinh?

Considering how you and your countrymen spew so many lies its only natural that Chinese would feel offended.

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## Danny2014

Rechoice said:


> Are you proud for that ?
> 
> 
> 
> most of aggressive Chinese members here on DPF belong to southern Chinese or oversea Chinese, they tried portray themselves truer Han Chinese than Han Chinese in Zhong Yuan.



I can see the reasoning there. I was in Northern China Visiting relatives. They were nice hosts with great manners. They didn't really give a shit about political garbage.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> most of aggressive Chinese members here on DPF belong to southern Chinese or oversea Chinese, they tried portray themselves truer Han Chinese than Han Chinese in Zhong Yuan.



So South Chinese shouldn't be patriotic, your analogy is funny here.



Danny2014 said:


> I can see the reasoning there. I was in Northern China Visiting relatives. They were nice hosts with great manners. They didn't really give a shit about political garbage.



Which city your relatives live?

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## Danny2014

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So South Chinese shouldn't be patriotic, your analogy is funny here.
> 
> 
> 
> Which city your relatives live?



My relatives live in Beijing and Linye (about 1 hour flight trip from Beijing). I have to admit I was impressed by Beijing. The city is awesome except for the polluted air.

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## StarCraft_ZT

Danny2014 said:


> My relatives live in Beijing and Linye (about 1 hour flight trip from Beijing). I have to admit I was impressed by Beijing. The city is awesome except for the polluted air.



Welcome to Beijing.



Danny2014 said:


> I just got back from a two weeks trip in Beijing and Linye. The people over there are mostly cool and nice as heck. Not sure why they Chinese here on this website are bunch of assholes.



And where is Linye? Are you referring to Linyi?



Rechoice said:


> Are you proud for that ?
> 
> 
> 
> most of aggressive Chinese members here on DPF belong to southern Chinese or oversea Chinese, they tried portray themselves truer Han Chinese than Han Chinese in Zhong Yuan.



No. They are the most patriotic Chinese, most of the revolution in early 20th centuries were initiated by South Chinese, like our Chairman Mao and Sun Yat-sen. North and South Chinese are standing firmly together to defend our country.

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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> Where are my manners,while this forum has its fair share of vitriolic nationalists/irredentists there's still some reasonable members,but welcome to this forum.
> 
> Uncorroborated sources/mythology don't fly in the academic community,therefore they shouldn't be used as a legitimate substitute for primary/secondary sources.
> 
> While it is possible that individuals rooted in mythology might represent a set of ideals or a tribe or that some sort of conflict emerged between several parties however they are heavily embellished and contain anachronistic terminology.
> 
> That's the issue you can't attach prehistoric cultures to a later day fabrication,Chinese historians use the Erlitou culture as "proof" for the Xia dynasty however there's no evidence of writing therefore its not recognized by Western historians.
> 
> The same reason why the Shang dynasty was put under heavy scrutiny until oracle bones were found to record Shang era events and Shang imperial lineage.
> 
> Qin Shihuang's book burning have nothing to do with Van Lang/Hong Bang they were too distant to know of each other,neither did the Spring Autumn/Warring States maintain close contacts with Central Asians.
> 
> Hong Bang dynasty is a complete sham made by Vietnamese to prove that they are an older civilization and origin of Chinese culture.
> 
> 1.Material culture is not indicative of suzerainty ie Dong Son bronze drums spread throughout parts of southern China as well as southeast Asia however there existed an independent tradition in Shizaishan. Many foreign cultures adopted Chinese culture and imported Chinese swords,mirrors as well as bells however this doesn't make them Chinese.
> 
> 2.Chinese terminology as well as mimicry ie the terminology of Phong Chau is erroneous as it couldn't possibly have existed until the Sui-Tang era where 州 was redefined,as well as this famous passage:
> 東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南至狐猻精國（今占城是也）。
> To the East it bordered the Southern sea,the west BaShu to the North Dong Ting Lake and to the South Hu Sun(Champa).
> 
> Is just ripping off the Huayang Guozhi.
> 
> 3.The lack of Chinese sources indicating a powerful kingdom to the south or archaeological evidence of a bureaucracy that ruled southern China from Vietnam,writing etc.
> 
> 4.Linguistics:Southern China had Austronesians,Tai Kadai,Austro Asiatics,Tibeto Burmans as well as Miao Yao speakers how can they all be Vietnamese?
> 
> 5.No other ethnicity has myths of Hung Kings,a powerful country would surely leave behind descendants all over Southern China.
> 
> This is just the tip of the iceberg there are plenty of other evidence that contradicts the medieval Vietnamese narrative.
> 
> The issue is that Dong Son culture faded away after Chinese culture supplanted it and that it barely influenced other cultures,the bronze drums which the Vietnamese hold great pride over today were viewed as relics of barbarians by medieval Vietnamese.
> 
> Chinese legacy is widespread despite how Vietnamese want to deny it today ie historically Vietnamese surnames,architecture,bureaucracy,philosophy,linguistics,clothing,script were all heavily influenced by Chinese cultures.
> 
> Vietnamese claiming that they had a civilization that matched the Chinese in influence and territory is ridiculous,it would be like saying the Germanic tribes the Romans faced were the origins of the of the Romans.
> 
> 
> There's no such as true Han Chinese,tell me are Northern,Central or Southern Vietnamese more Kinh?
> 
> Considering how you and your countrymen spew so many lies its only natural that Chinese would feel offended.



I respect your opinion. The arguments you put forward are valid in a historical viewpoint. However, I have my own views.

Artifact discovered, such as the bronze drum does predate the Qin Dynasty. Medieval Vietnamese do not look at the bronze drum as "barbarian" as you have stated. In fact, a relic shard of the bronze drum have been safe guarded within my family and placed behind our ancestors' shrine, past down for thousands of years. When we relocate, it goes first.

Vietnamese are not claiming a greater and older history than China. This is your own misperception. It is common for people to use known history of a particular ethnicity as a reference for the purposes of dating a particular era being discussed, so that the person involve in the discussion may understand the timeline. Especially in a forum like this where we don't know which Asian group each person belongs to.

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## xesy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So South Chinese shouldn't be patriotic, your analogy is funny here.


I don't believe patriotism and hating enemies are the same. Because Southern Chinese live much closer to VN, they have more chance to meet up, understand and sympathize with VNese. Same goes to Northern VNese living near China-VN border. Those people do not completely fall under the govt propaganda.



Rent said:


> I respect your opinion. The arguments you put forward are valid in a historical viewpoint. However, I have my own views.
> 
> Artifact discovered, such as the bronze drum does predate the Qin Dynasty. Medieval Vietnamese do not look at the bronze drum as "barbarian" as you have stated. In fact, a relic shard of the bronze drum have been safe guarded within my family and placed behind our ancestors' shrine, past down for thousands of years. When we relocate, it goes first.
> 
> Vietnamese are not claiming a greater and older history than China. This is your own misperception. It is common for people use the known history of a particular ethnicity as a reference for the purposes of dating a particular era being discussed, so that the person involve in the discussion may understand the timeline. Especially in a forum like this where we don't know which Asian group each person belongs to.


Dude, nice talk. Some Chinese mems on PDF often bring up wild claims that VN said this VN did that which, as a VNese I have never seen or heard about. For example after the war with US, it was true that VN was overconfident in its military power, but to claim to be the third strongest country in the world, after Russia and China? It was ridiculous. VNese, especially politicans did not live in a small village with no education to make such statement. Even a middle schooler now understand that. But somehow some Chinese mems here believe that VN did say and act like that. Chinese govt propaganda are effective, too effective.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I respect your opinion. The arguments you put forward are valid in a historical viewpoint. However, I have my own views.
> 
> Artifact discovered, such as the bronze drum does predate the Qin Dynasty. Medieval Vietnamese do not look at the bronze drum as "barbarian" as you have stated. In fact, a relic shard of the bronze drum have been safe guarded within my family and placed behind our ancestors' shrine, past down for thousands of years. When we relocate, it goes first.
> 
> Vietnamese are not claiming a greater and older history than China. This is your own misperception. It is common for people to use known history of a particular ethnicity as a reference for the purposes of dating a particular era being discussed, so that the person involve in the discussion may understand the timeline. Especially in a forum like this where we don't know which Asian group each person belongs to.


Except that the bronze drum tradition arose at the exact same time in Yunnan,claiming all bronze drums as Vietnamese is ludicrous.

Bronze drums don't prove sovereignty or evidence of Hung Kings all they proved that indigenous peoples were had to tools to shape bronze. 

No, bronze drums were clearly a symbol of un Sinicized peoples.
The Unimportance of Bronze Drums in Việt History | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
Vịet, “Chinese,” Savages and Bronze Drums | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog

Its not a misconception if Vietnamese members on this forum have already expressed this view,there's no need for me to quote these members as they already posted their views plenty of times ie Rechoice,EastSea,ViXuyen,NiceGuy etc.

The underlying theme is that there is an immutable Vietnamese identity and that Southern Han Chinese should join them in some political union.

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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Conside





Grand Historian said:


> There's no such as true Han Chinese,tell me are Northern,Central or Southern Vietnamese more Kinh?
> Considering how you and your countrymen spew so many lies its only natural that Chinese would feel offended.



what I said in our discussion is truth, bro. I don't think that is offended. Problem is southern Chinese would like to be as superior like Han Chinese from North China who invented Chinese culture and chinese civilization.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So South Chinese shouldn't be patriotic, your analogy is funny here.



I don't said about patriotism, I said about aggressiveness..


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## Grand Historian

xesy said:


> Dude, nice talk. Some Chinese mems on PDF often bring up wild claims that VN said this VN did that which, as a VNese I have never seen or heard about. For example after the war with US, it was true that VN was overconfident in its military power, but to claim to be the third strongest country in the world, after Russia and China? It was ridiculous. VNese, especially politicans did not live in a small village with no education to make such statement. Even a middle schooler now understand that. But somehow some Chinese mems here believe that VN did say and act like that. Chinese govt propaganda are effective, too effective.


You are either feigning ignorance or blind,many Vietnamese members on this forum argue for Baiyue independence and brag how powerful the Hung Kings were and how Southern China was their land.


----------



## Rechoice

StarCraft_ZT said:


> No. They are the most patriotic Chinese, most of the revolution in early 20th centuries were initiated by South Chinese, like our Chairman Mao and Sun Yat-sen. North and South Chinese are standing firmly together to defend our country.



You said like what paper Number 1 of People Daily of CPC edited.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> what I said in our discussion is truth, bro. I don't think that is offended. Problem is southern Chinese would like to be as superior like Han Chinese from North China who invented Chinese culture and chinese civilization.



Are you kidding me? South Chinese and North Chinese are equivalent, and we both found our country called PRC.

- The father of China's space program was Shanghainese.
- The fathers of China's nuclear sub were Cantonese.
- The father of China's H-bomb was from Tianjin.

You see, no matter North Chinese or South Chinese, we have equally founded our country.

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> what I said in our discussion is truth, bro. I don't think that is offended. Problem is southern Chinese would like to be as superior like Han Chinese from North China who invented Chinese culture and chinese civilization.


Every Han Chinese subset thinks they're superior to others,Han Chinese are not a homogeneous entity they each exhibit regional variations in culture/architecture/genetics etc.

You're equating modern day Northern Han with ancient Northern Han which is ridiculous,some ancient Northern Han cluster with today's Southern Han Chinese doesn't mean that Southern Han Chinese can exclusively claim Chinese civilization as their own.

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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Except that the bronze drum tradition arose at the exact same time in Yunnan,claiming all bronze drums as Vietnamese is ludicrous.
> 
> Bronze drums don't prove sovereignty or evidence of Hung Kings all they proved that indigenous peoples were had to tools to shape bronze.
> 
> No, bronze drums were clearly a symbol of un Sinicized peoples.
> The Unimportance of Bronze Drums in Việt History | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
> Vịet, “Chinese,” Savages and Bronze Drums | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
> 
> Its not a misconception if Vietnamese members on this forum have already expressed this view,there's no need for me to quote these members as they already posted their views plenty of times ie Rechoice,EastSea,ViXuyen,NiceGuy etc.
> 
> The underlying theme is that there is an immutable Vietnamese identity and that Southern Han Chinese should join them in some political union.



Vietnam belong to Dong Son culture . bronze drums found also in south east asia (Indonesia, Cambodia etc and in southern China), not only in Vietnam.

There is root of us, so why we joined to ASEAN.


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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> Vietnam belong to Dong Son culture . bronze drums found also in south east asia (Indonesia, Cambodia etc and in southern China), not only in Vietnam.
> 
> There is root of us, so why we joined to ASEAN.


Doesn't matter if Vietnamese belonged to it,Vietnamese Sinicized and never got rid of it.


----------



## dahuilang942

Rent said:


> Your name is [达] Đạt [晖] Huy [郎] Lang if written out in Vietnamese.
> 
> Sawndip Script looks very complex. Written during the early Tang Dynasty.
> 
> Was there a reason to move from old Sawndip Script to Alphabetical Zhuang Script? Which script are more in use by Zhuang people?


----------------
Like another Chinese,Zhuang people use Chinese character,speak *mandarin *in public place,
there is 4 minority nationality characters in a 1yuan RMB.






in fact, most of Zhuang people cound't read and write Alphabetical Zhuang Script,this script use in the gov signs,files,only professor can understand the script, 

for thousands of years,Southern minority nationality region followed the central govenment's system, established a stable and sound social relations with the central dynasty.


----------



## Aepsilons

How very interesting. I've never heard of Zhuang ethnic group until now. @dahuilang942 , perchance you could start a threat about the Zhuang ethnic and illustrate some of their native regalia, festivities? Please and Thanks.


----------



## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Are you kidding me? South Chinese and North Chinese are equivalent, and we both found our country called PRC.
> 
> - The father of China's space program was Shanghainese.
> - The fathers of China's nuclear sub were Cantonese.
> - The father of China's H-bomb was from Tianjin.
> 
> You see, no matter North Chinese or South Chinese, we have equally founded our country.



I said about invention, not about copy ability. Hua Xia culture belong to Han Chinese in northern China, not belong to Bai Yue, they were barbarian in ancient time.

Apply your analogy I can say that father DKZ canon is Vietnamese, father of mini-sub marine in Vietnam is Vietnamese etc.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> Vietnam belong to Dong Son culture . bronze drums found also in south east asia (Indonesia, Cambodia etc and in *southern China*), not only in Vietnam.
> 
> There is root of us, so why we joined to ASEAN.



South China is not Southeast Asia, just like South Germany is not Southern Europe.



Rechoice said:


> I said about invention, not about copy ability. Hua Xia culture belong to Han Chinese in northern China, not belong to Bai Yue, they were barbarian in ancient time.
> 
> Apply your analogy I can say that father DKZ canon is Vietnamese, father of mini-sub marine in Vietnam is Vietnamese etc.



Who cares? Most South Chinese descended from Huaxia as well.

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## Shishike

Rent said:


> You should have visited during the Beijing Olympic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was posted on restaurant windows in Beijing. A mob broke out attacking tourist.


You may see something like "no chinks" on some restaurant window in Viet, Jap, Flip.
but only few, don't let the tiny part ruins your imagine of China. Honestly, people here are friendly and do not talk politics much.


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## Jlaw

Rechoice said:


> I said about invention, not about copy ability. Hua Xia culture belong to Han Chinese in northern China, not belong to Bai Yue, they were barbarian in ancient time.
> 
> Apply your analogy I can say that father DKZ canon is Vietnamese, father of mini-sub marine in Vietnam is Vietnamese etc.



You can, than people will think you're crazy or stupid. 

Or both.

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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> Except that the bronze drum tradition arose at the exact same time in Yunnan,claiming all bronze drums as Vietnamese is ludicrous.
> 
> Bronze drums don't prove sovereignty or evidence of Hung Kings all they proved that indigenous peoples were had to tools to shape bronze.
> 
> No, bronze drums were clearly a symbol of un Sinicized peoples.
> 
> Its not a misconception if Vietnamese members on this forum have already expressed this view,there's no need for me to quote these members as they already posted their views plenty of times ie Rechoice,EastSea,ViXuyen,NiceGuy etc.
> 
> The underlying theme is that there is an immutable Vietnamese identity and that Southern Han Chinese should join them in some political union.



Like I had said, people have their own views and rights to hold their opinions. This is after all a discussion forum. 

Many culture developed bronze drum of different size and of different style at different phases throughout human history. I have not heard of such claim that all bronze drums are made by Viet people, and yes, that would be ludicrous to do so. Bronze Drum casting technology was a shared knowledge to natives of this continent. 

With regards to the importance of Bronze Drums in Vietnam History and political views of others, I do not have the authoritative to comment. I don't expect others to understand the significant of the bronze drum shard to my family. However, within the eight clans of my family, it plays an important role during lễ hội đền Hùng (Hung Kings Ancestral Commemoration Day). Vietnamese in general have different ways of honoring their ancestors and not all Commemorate Hung Kings.


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> South China is not Southeast Asia, just like South Germany is not Southern Europe.



Guangdong Guangxi, Yunan ...or south china land was invaded and robbed by Han Chinese. There is not native land of Hua Xia.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Who cares? Most South Chinese descended from Huaxia as well.



Northern Han and southern Han don't shared same blood line.



Jlaw said:


> You can, than people will think you're crazy or stupid.
> Or both.



It is joker when southern chinese were conquered by Han Chinese from north China, you are slaves of Han Chinese.

It is inferior mentality when you labeled yourself that you are Han in ethnicity.


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## tonyget

Rechoice said:


> I said about invention, not about copy ability. Hua Xia culture belong to Han Chinese in northern China, not belong to Bai Yue, they were barbarian in ancient time.
> 
> Apply your analogy I can say that father DKZ canon is Vietnamese, father of mini-sub marine in Vietnam is Vietnamese etc.




Modern Europeans say they are the successor of Roman empire, while their ancestors were barbarians in Roman era


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## Rent

I have never seen anything like this before, except in Beijing and in the Bruce Lee movie "The Chinese Connection".

I understand this image do not represent the general population of Chinese.


Shishike said:


> You may see something like "no chinks" on some restaurant window in Viet, Jap, Flip.
> but only few, don't let the tiny part ruins your imagine of China. Honestly, people here are friendly and do not talk politics much.


----------



## Rechoice

tonyget said:


> Modern Europeans say they are the successor of Roman empire, while their ancestors were barbarians in Roman era



fail.

You did not understand, bro. If Holy Roman Empire does not collapsed like Zhongguo, in Europa is existed northern Italian and Southern Italian like people in china now ?


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## hans

Thanks for the advice



xesy said:


> You are welcome. I suggest you spend your time in southern coastal cities. The food tastes better and the sea is more beautiful. The weather is also great for swimming.


----------



## Rent

Thank you for your reply.

Much appreciation for sharing a piece of your history with us. It would be great to learn more about Zhuang.


dahuilang942 said:


> ----------------
> Like another Chinese,Zhuang people use Chinese character,speak *mandarin *in public place,
> there is 4 minority nationality characters in a 1yuan RMB.
> 
> View attachment 48543
> 
> in fact, most of Zhuang people cound't read and write Alphabetical Zhuang Script,this script use in the gov signs,files,only professor can understand the script,
> 
> for thousands of years,Southern minority nationality region followed the central govenment's system, established a stable and sound social relations with the central dynasty.


----------



## Shishike

Rechoice said:


> fail.
> 
> You did not understand, bro. If Holy Roman Empire does not collapsed like Zhongguo, in Europa is existed northern Italian and Southern Italian like people in china now ?


so we have China and Vietnam? hmmmm, why your leaders have a Chinese family name? because their forefathers are Chinese. 不肖子孙啊。


----------



## tonyget

This is 1300BC

Shang dynasty and Sinic were different people ?


----------



## kolinsky

tonyget said:


> This is 1300BC
> 
> Shang dynasty and Sinic were different people ?


Lets play civil5....... build a city, temple, warrior, library, .... then tank, tank, tank, booooooom you win.


----------



## Rechoice

Shishike said:


> so we have China and Vietnam? hmmmm, why your leaders have a Chinese family name? because their forefathers are Chinese. 不肖子孙啊。



It is big misunderstand bro. In the past Vietnamese used Han Zi to writing, so all clan name or surname has been interpreted in to Chinese to writing.Originally Le, Ly Lao ... were origin clan name of people who lived south china in ancient time, this people were *no-Hua.*

It doesn't mean that Vietnamese are southern Han Chinese in origin.

When I say that Van Lang ancient country of Vietnamese, territory is located in South China, Chinese member here on PDF don't agree with me.

Vietnamese speak Mon/Khmer language when Chinese speak Sino-Tibetan language.

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## xesy

Grand Historian said:


> You are either feigning ignorance or blind,many Vietnamese members on this forum argue for Baiyue independence and brag how powerful the Hung Kings were and how Southern China was their land.


I am talking about the recent more modern history. VNese ancient history was passed down orally, and details were lost or changed for the convinience. You are fine to argue with us about that. I don't think they hold much credibility either ways. But it was true that our ancestors once lived in Southern China, and started moving south after the Han civilization expanded.

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## dahuilang942

Danny2014 said:


> I just got back from a two weeks trip in Beijing and Linye. The people over there are mostly cool and nice as heck. Not sure why they Chinese here on this website are bunch of assholes.


---
including me？。i m a nice guy



Rent said:


> You should have visited during the Beijing Olympic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was posted on restaurant windows in Beijing. A mob broke out attacking tourist.



--------

But this is one case.China is a pluralistic society


----------



## Rent

With all respect, as I see you as a litterateur, we are all using English to communicate in this forum. That doesn't mean that we are all romanized. When conversing with other ethnicity, I try my best to speak to them in their native language, if possible. When speaking to a Filipino person, I will try to use some Tagalog. When speaking to a Hispanic person, I would use proper title like señor, señora or señorita to refer to the individual, depending on there age. For Chinese, I may try my best to use some Chinese as I see fit. This is Vietnamese manners to others and towards elders. However, if the person is rude, then I will respond with the same manner. 

As many people will do, we try to find common grounds among different ethnicities to better understand and connect as a group during social times. Do not misconceive this to be that we are the same (sinicized). Try living with a Vietnamese for a month and you will see how different our two cultures are. 


Grand Historian said:


> Doesn't matter if Vietnamese belonged to it,Vietnamese Sinicized and never got rid of it.

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## dahuilang942

Rechoice said:


> Guangdong Guangxi, Yunan ...or south china land was invaded and robbed by Han Chinese. There is not native land of Hua Xia.
> 
> 
> 
> Northern Han and southern Han don't shared same blood line.
> 
> 
> 
> It is joker when southern chinese were conquered by Han Chinese from north China, you are slaves of Han Chinese.
> 
> It is inferior mentality when you labeled yourself that you are Han in ethnicity.



-----------------------
You have a strong imagination
Maybe small country people don‘t understand what is ethnic integration,national unity ,today we are no doubt Chinese status,With the development of economy,it's more convenient to visit,job,my relative including many nation,one family Members don't mind where are you come from,what is you nation,it is “great power mentality”,VN comrade Cannot feel it,

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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Poignant. This is just the case in most socialist states; the personal choice in leadership is mitigated.


Wrong, we chose to support communist to defeat France- US, and we gain benefit from it. We also dont like multy-party system coz it only fit with US while it is a collar to put arround Japan's neck.


----------



## Aepsilons

NiceGuy said:


> Wrong, we chose to support communist to defeat France- US, and we gain benefit from it. We also dont like multy-party system coz it only fit with US while it is a collar to put arround Japan's neck.



Did I mention the historical reasons for selecting a Communist style of governance? I don't think I did. I merely stated the unfortunate consequences in a one party system.


----------



## Shishike

Rent said:


> I have never seen anything like this before, except in Beijing and in the Bruce Lee movie "The Chinese Connection".
> 
> I understand this image do not represent the general population of Chinese.


It's meaningless, but if you still curious, you may can google it.


Soryu said:


> And you forget this: China got bang so many time by smaller country like Britain, France, Japan ... until Chinese got big party given them by Japanese in 1937 at Nanking.


LOL, even that, you still begged our help to save your city.


----------



## Rent

I still don't understand...small role? Are you referring to a play?


北國之春 said:


> Yes, poor Vietnam
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, Vietnam is a small role


----------



## dahuilang942

Nihonjin1051 said:


> How very interesting. I've never heard of Zhuang ethnic group until now. @dahuilang942 , perchance you could start a threat about the Zhuang ethnic and illustrate some of their native regalia, festivities? Please and Thanks.


-------
Show something different！
5 colors glutinous rice





--------------




Boy and girl of Zhuang 

----------------

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## Rent

Googled with no results.


Shishike said:


> It's meaningless, but if you still curious, you may can google it.


----------



## Shishike

Rechoice said:


> It is big misunderstand bro. In the past Vietnamese used Han Zi to writing, so all clan name or surname has been interpreted in to Chinese to writing.Originally Le, Ly Lao ... were origin clan name of people who lived south china in ancient time, this people were *no-Hua.*
> 
> It doesn't mean that Vietnamese are southern Han Chinese in origin.
> 
> When I say that Van Lang ancient country of Vietnamese, territory is located in South China, Chinese member here on PDF don't agree with me.
> 
> Vietnamese speak Mon/Khmer language when Chinese speak Sino-Tibetan language.



that's a typical history misunderstanding, nowadays, Viet just like Philp in some way, difference is Philp failed to join U.S, Viet failed to be a part of China.

In accident years, some talented Chinese who cannot get spot light on them in China, they choose to move to far south of China, with many years and hard working. then we have a place now named 越南,交趾...etc. Even the names were gifts from Emperor in central country.

The relationship between Viet and China is twisted by media in both sides, these 2 countries acted like teacher and student, father and son, elder brother and youth in last thousands years, not even close to be enemies, but now, under powerful media and needs of politics, everything changes.


----------



## Aepsilons

dahuilang942 said:


> -------
> Show something different！
> 5 colors glutinous rice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy and girl of Zhuang
> 
> ----------------




How very interesting. In the University that I work at here in the United States, I've had Hmong students who wore their ethnic regalia during an International Culture Show. It looks somewhat similar to the Zhuang attire. I believe the Hmong refer to themselves as 'Miao'. I think they are also minorities in the People's Republic of China, Laos and Vietnam.

Permit me to say that the Zhuang ethnic regalia is very colorful and beautiful. The female's headdress is quite beautiful in form, too.


----------



## dahuilang942

Rechoice said:


> I said about invention, not about copy ability. Hua Xia culture belong to Han Chinese in northern China, not belong to Bai Yue, they were barbarian in ancient time.
> 
> Apply your analogy I can say that father DKZ canon is Vietnamese, father of mini-sub marine in Vietnam is Vietnamese etc.


-------
many many many many many years ago~



Rent said:


> Your name is [达] Đạt [晖] Huy [郎] Lang if written out in Vietnamese.
> 
> Sawndip Script looks very complex. Written during the early Tang Dynasty.
> 
> Was there a reason to move from old Sawndip Script to Alphabetical Zhuang Script? Which script are more in use by Zhuang people?


------
do you known Chinese character？


----------



## Shishike

dahuilang942 said:


> -------
> many many many many many years ago~
> 
> 
> ------
> do you known Chinese character？



=..= your name is a sentence, right? means "a big gray wolf you are".


----------



## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Did I mention the historical reasons for selecting a Communist style of governance? I don't think I did. I merely stated the unfortunate consequences in a one party system.


Bro, if the party always serve the people, then why do we need to waste Tax to have one more party ?? US have 2 major parties but they all serve for the benefit of the top Bosses in Wall st who can take Tax from poor people but in charge of Nothing and never be over-thrown


----------



## Rent

The world use to look at China as an ancient, benevolent grandparent country. A melting pot of cultures with respect for its literatures, arts, and enduring history. However, this view is changing.

Yes, Qing emperor blessed our country with a great name, our people with continuous trades, which boosted Vietnam's economy during the Nguyen Dynasty. He made our people rich. In the other hand, his blessed his people by making them take off their buns, shave their heads and force them to wear pig tails as servant of cheap labor to Manchurians Khanate. 萬歲, 萬歲, 萬萬歲! This is the reason we didn't join China. Vietnamese benefited more as neighbors than we would as citizen under the regime. Do you see our perspective here?

Shishike, let this bickering end here.


Shishike said:


> that's a typical history misunderstanding, nowadays, Viet just like Philp in some way, difference is Philp failed to join U.S, Viet failed to be a part of China.
> 
> In accident years, some talented Chinese who cannot get spot light on them in China, they choose to move to far south of China, with many years and hard working. then we have a place now named 越南,交趾...etc. Even the names were gifts from Emperor in central country.
> 
> The relationship between Viet and China is twisted by media in both sides, these 2 countries acted like teacher and student, father and son, elder brother and youth in last thousands years, not even close to be enemies, but now, under powerful media and needs of politics, everything changes.





dahuilang942 said:


> -------
> many many many many many years ago~
> 
> 
> ------
> do you known Chinese character？


I am still learning

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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> fail.
> 
> You did not understand, bro. If Holy Roman Empire does not collapsed like Zhongguo, in Europa is existed northern Italian and Southern Italian like people in china now ?



Wrong analogy, you compare North Chinese and South Chinese is like comparing North Germans and South Germans.

North Germans: pure Germanics
South Germans: Germanics/Celts mix

North Chinese: pure Huaxia
South Chinese: Huaxia/Baiyue mix

Can you say that South Germans are not Germans? LMAO

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## Danny2014

Yes, I am sorry I meant Linyi. This is the city of Confuscious.


----------



## Rechoice

dahuilang942 said:


> -----------------------
> You have a strong imagination
> Maybe small country people don‘t understand what is ethnic integration,national unity ,today we are no doubt Chinese status,With the development of economy,it's more convenient to visit,job,my relative including many nation,one family Members don't mind where are you come from,what is you nation,it is “great power mentality”,VN comrade Cannot feel it,



congrat, Zhuang bro. I read your comment it is similar to propaganda title of renmin zipao 人民日报.

I have a question : Do you know who is 儂智高 ?

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## Viet

北國之春 said:


> Vietnam now development is also good, but with China against only a dead end.


actually thing is very easy:

since ancient times back to the period of Nam Viet under Zhao Tuo (204 bc), what Vietnam wants is respect and equality from China. that aim has not changed much until today.

we are not against China just for fun.


----------



## dahuilang942

Rechoice said:


> congrat, Zhuang bro. I read your comment it is similar to propaganda title of renmin zipao 人民日报.
> 
> I have a question : Do you know who is 儂智高 ?


----
yes i known, a leader of zhuang,what do you think 儂智高？


----------



## Viet

Danny2014 said:


> Yes, I am sorry I meant Linyi. This is the city of Confuscious.


cool. can you speak chinese?


----------



## Danny2014

Viet said:


> cool. can you speak chinese?



I don't speak any Mandarin. My relatives actually speak English quite fluently. We communicated rather well.


----------



## Rechoice

Shishike said:


> that's a typical history misunderstanding, nowadays, Viet just like Philp in some way, difference is Philp failed to join U.S, Viet failed to be a part of China.
> 
> In accident years, some talented Chinese who cannot get spot light on them in China, they choose to move to far south of China, with many years and hard working. then we have a place now named 越南,交趾...etc. Even the names were gifts from Emperor in central country.
> 
> The relationship between Viet and China is twisted by media in both sides, these 2 countries acted like teacher and student, father and son, elder brother and youth in last thousands years, not even close to be enemies, but now, under powerful media and needs of politics, everything changes.



you are uneducated and brainwashed chinese boy. Your troll is just repeated what newbie chinese troll on PDF when you are just joined in.

Problem is that we kicked Han Chinese ran back to China. and we regained our independence from China. Other people in south Chine were enslaving by Han Chinese untill now.

What does it mean the word 越南,交趾 mean ? This characters is just Chinese recorded our sound from Vietnamese:

" 越南 " is first used by our fortune teller Nguyen Binh Khiem. 阮秉謙; 1491–1585.

"交趾" Giao Chi (cochine) came from Nguoi " Keo " and " Kẻ Chợ". It is origin our ancient words labeled to themselves by Vietnamese. Han Zi is just characters for writing.

One more exemple for you: the name of the girl "Nụ" in Vietnamese, it does mean a small " flower ". using Han Zi we can write "女" for record the sound, or we can use Han Zi word "华" for the meaning...

I dont like to waste my time more.



dahuilang942 said:


> ----
> yes i known, a leader of zhuang,what do you think 儂智高？



just for my test, are you really Zhuang ?

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## dahuilang942

Rechoice said:


> you are uneducated and brainwashed chinese boy. Your troll is just repeated what newbie chinese troll on PDF when you are just joined in.
> 
> Problem is that we kicked Han Chinese ran back to China. and we regained our independence from China. Other people in south Chine were enslaving by Han Chinese untill now.
> 
> What does it mean the word 越南,交趾 mean ? This characters is just Chinese recorded our sound from Vietnamese:
> 
> " 越南 " is first used by our fortune teller Nguyen Binh Khiem. 阮秉謙; 1491–1585.
> 
> "交趾" Giao Chi (cochine) came from Nguoi " Keo " and " Kẻ Chợ". It is origin our ancient words labeled to themselves by Vietnamese. Han Zi is just characters for writing.
> 
> One more exemple for you: the name of the girl "Nụ" in Vietnamese, it does mean a " flower ". using Han Zi we can write "女" for record the sound, or we can use Han Zi word "华" for the meaning...
> 
> I dont like to waste my time more.


-------------
“Other people in south Chine were enslaving by Han Chinese untill now.”
Who enslaved me？How ？why i don’t known？
i think VN bro have strange ideas.

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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Wrong analogy, you compare North Chinese and South Chinese is like comparing North Germans and South Germans.
> 
> North Germans: pure Germanics
> South Germans: Germanics/Celts mix
> 
> North Chinese: pure Huaxia
> South Chinese: Huaxia/Baiyue mix
> 
> Can you say that South Germans are not Germans? LMAO



when you like to speak about Germany people, there is English and Deutch. or more Deutsche Volk and Austria Volk.


----------



## dahuilang942

Rechoice said:


> when you like to speak about Germany people, there is English and Deutch. or more Deutsche Volk and Austria Volk.


----
S VN and N VN are also different.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> when you like to speak about Germany people, there is English and Deutch. or more Deutsche Volk and Austria Volk.



Germany got defeated, so they were forced to split with Austria.

Try to defeat China first before talking like you own South China.

And let me telling you, the difference between South Chinese and North Chinese is actually smaller than that between South Germans and North Germans.

So you can keep dreaming, no sane people from China will support South China being a different entity from China.


----------



## Rechoice

dahuilang942 said:


> -------------
> “Other people in south Chine were enslaving by Han Chinese untill now.”
> Who enslaved me？How ？why i don’t known？
> i think VN bro have strange ideas.



do you know 大曆国 ?


----------



## dahuilang942

Rechoice said:


> you are uneducated and brainwashed chinese boy. Your troll is just repeated what newbie chinese troll on PDF when you are just joined in.
> 
> Problem is that we kicked Han Chinese ran back to China. and we regained our independence from China. Other people in south Chine were enslaving by Han Chinese untill now.
> 
> What does it mean the word 越南,交趾 mean ? This characters is just Chinese recorded our sound from Vietnamese:
> 
> " 越南 " is first used by our fortune teller Nguyen Binh Khiem. 阮秉謙; 1491–1585.
> 
> "交趾" Giao Chi (cochine) came from Nguoi " Keo " and " Kẻ Chợ". It is origin our ancient words labeled to themselves by Vietnamese. Han Zi is just characters for writing.
> 
> One more exemple for you: the name of the girl "Nụ" in Vietnamese, it does mean a small " flower ". using Han Zi we can write "女" for record the sound, or we can use Han Zi word "华" for the meaning...
> 
> I dont like to waste my time more.
> 
> 
> 
> just for my test, are you really Zhuang ?


---------------
i m Zhuang,from Guangxi,what do you think 侬智高？


----------



## xesy

dahuilang942 said:


> -------
> Show something different！
> 5 colors glutinous rice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy and girl of Zhuang
> 
> ----------------


Interesting. I just watch a documents showing that an ethnic group in NorthWest VN also have the same type of rice, but with 7 colors. The clothe is different though.


----------



## Rechoice

dahuilang942 said:


> ----
> S VN and N VN are also different.



SVN and NVN is like west German and east German.


----------



## dahuilang942

Rechoice said:


> do you know 大曆国 ?



so what?


----------



## Rechoice

dahuilang942 said:


> ---------------
> i m Zhuang,from Guangxi,what do you think 侬智高？



侬智高 and 大曆国, It was part of your history.

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## dahuilang942

xesy said:


> Interesting. I just watch a documents showing that an ethnic group in NorthWest VN also have the same type of rice, but with 7 colors. The clothe is different though.


there some similar food between VN&Guangxi，like rice dumpling,rice noodles

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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Germany got defeated, so they were forced to split with Austria.
> 
> Try to defeat China first before talking like you own South China.
> 
> And let me telling you, the difference between South Chinese and North Chinese is actually smaller than that between South Germans and North Germans.
> 
> So you can keep dreaming, no sane people from China will support South China being a different entity from China.



every comparission is relative, bro. Today German, Austria and England is part of Euro zone. but identity is different.

I wander about Scotland, people there would like to split from UK.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> I wander about Scotland, people there would like to split from UK.



Most Scottish people think themselves as the Celtic folks, which is different from the English people as the Germanic folks.

However, most South Chinese think themselves as Han same as the North Chinese, so invalid comparison here.

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## dahuilang942

Rechoice said:


> 侬智高 and 大曆国, It was part of your history.



I thought you want to tell us nowadays VN happiness life and southern CN people miserable life through history.


----------



## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Most Scottish people think themselves as the Celtic folks, which is different from the English people as the Germanic folks.
> 
> However, most South Chinese think themselves as Han same as the North Chinese, so invalid comparison here.



problem is the thinking is different.



dahuilang942 said:


> I thought you want to tell us nowadays VN happiness life and southern CN people miserable life hrough history.



No, bro.


----------



## Rechoice

北國之春 said:


> But we must rule in Vietnam.



slave of Manchurian to 1911, of Japanese to 1945, UK and Portugal to 1999 has his wet dream.


----------



## Viet

dahuilang942 said:


> there some similar food between VN&Guangxi，like rice dumpling,rice noodles


is the avatar yourself? just curious, have you ever been to VN? we have more things in common than just rice noodles 



Rechoice said:


> slave of Manchurian to 1911, of Japanese to 1945, UK and Portugal to 1999 has his wet dream.


pls have mercy on the han chinese. their history was very ugly in the past 200 years, no, longer, since the fall of the ming.


----------



## Rechoice

北國之春 said:


> Chinese to Vietnam control since ancient times.



viets kicked chinese out from long time. china is ruled by invaders until recently.

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## Grand Historian

Rechoice said:


> Guangdong Guangxi, Yunan ...or south china land was invaded and robbed by Han Chinese. There is not native land of Hua Xia.


Southern China wasn't the native land of Huaxia neither was it Vietnamese,all civilizations expand if they have the military might Vietnam is no different.



Rechoice said:


> Northern Han and southern Han don't shared same blood line.


How many lies do I have to bust?

Explain why craniological studies show that modern day Southern Han cluster the closest to the Hua of Zhou-Western Jin as well as Y haplogroup proportions show that Fujianese Han cluster with Henan Han.



Rechoice said:


> It is joker when southern chinese were conquered by Han Chinese from north China, you are slaves of Han Chinese.
> 
> It is inferior mentality when you labeled yourself that you are Han in ethnicity.


Except southern Chinese are not the same as the Baiyue,they are descendants of Hua/Han males and native women.

Are central or southern Vietnamese slaves of northern Vietnamese because their lands used to be inhabited by Chams,Khmers and Chinese?



Rechoice said:


> It is big misunderstand bro. In the past Vietnamese used Han Zi to writing, so all clan name or surname has been interpreted in to Chinese to writing.Originally Le, Ly Lao ... were origin clan name of people who lived south china in ancient time, this people were *no-Hua.*
> 
> It doesn't mean that Vietnamese are southern Han Chinese in origin.
> 
> When I say that Van Lang ancient country of Vietnamese, territory is located in South China, Chinese member here on PDF don't agree with me.
> 
> Vietnamese speak Mon/Khmer language when Chinese speak Sino-Tibetan language.


Except that all your surnames originated in China,NiceGuy tried to claim otherwise and I showed him that there are Shang era bronzes referencing those names.

Except historically Northern Han as well as Southern Han have been migrating to Vietnam,while Han Chinese don't have Vietnamese blood.

You don't have any proof Van Lang existed or that it ruled southern China,we've been over this before you are academically dishonest.

Vietnamese spoke a variant of Chinese throughout history which explains why there are so many Chinese words in modern day Vietnamese languages.



xesy said:


> I am talking about the recent more modern history. VNese ancient history was passed down orally, and details were lost or changed for the convinience. You are fine to argue with us about that. I don't think they hold much credibility either ways. But it was true that our ancestors once lived in Southern China, and started moving south after the Han civilization expanded.


Except Vietnamese parade it as the truth and seek to claim southern China as their own ie Rechoice,if they were from southern China they wouldn't be called Vietnamese now would they.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Wrong analogy, you compare North Chinese and South Chinese is like comparing North Germans and South Germans.
> 
> North Germans: pure Germanics
> South Germans: Germanics/Celts mix
> 
> North Chinese: pure Huaxia
> South Chinese: Huaxia/Baiyue mix
> 
> Can you say that South Germans are not Germans? LMAO


Neither northern or southern Han are pure anymore,nor are Han Chinese pure in the first place.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Grand Historian said:


> Southern China wasn't the native land of Huaxia neither was it Vietnamese,all civilizations expand if they have the military might Vietnam is no different.
> 
> 
> How many lies do I have to bust?
> 
> Explain why craniological studies show that modern day Southern Han cluster the closest to the Hua of Zhou-Western Jin as well as Y haplogroup proportions show that Fujianese Han cluster with Henan Han.
> 
> 
> Except southern Chinese are not the same as the Baiyue,they are descendants of Hua/Han males and native women.
> 
> Are central or southern Vietnamese slaves of northern Vietnamese because their lands used to be inhabited by Chams,Khmers and Chinese?
> 
> 
> Except that all your surnames originated in China,NiceGuy tried to claim otherwise and I showed him that there are Shang era bronzes referencing those names.
> 
> Except historically Northern Han as well as Southern Han have been migrating to Vietnam,while Han Chinese don't have Vietnamese blood.
> 
> You don't have any proof Van Lang existed or that it ruled southern China,we've been over this before you are academically dishonest.
> 
> Vietnamese spoke a variant of Chinese throughout history which explains why there are so many Chinese words in modern day Vietnamese languages.
> 
> 
> Except Vietnamese parade it as the truth and seek to claim southern China as their own ie Rechoice,if they were from southern China they wouldn't be called Vietnamese now would they.
> 
> 
> Neither northern or southern Han are pure anymore,nor are Han Chinese pure in the first place.



North Chinese are slightly purer than South Chinese in term of the mother side, since they have more Han mother side than having that of the southern aborigines.

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## gpit

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Wrong analogy, you compare North Chinese and South Chinese is like comparing North Germans and South Germans.
> 
> North Germans: pure Germanics
> South Germans: Germanics/Celts mix
> 
> North Chinese: pure Huaxia
> South Chinese: Huaxia/Baiyue mix
> 
> Can you say that South Germans are not Germans? LMAO



I am not sure if northern Chinese are more Huaxia than the southern ones. In fact the reverse might be very true.

Around "16 kingdoms of the 5 Hus" period (五胡十六国, 309AD-439AD), huge amount of Hans, especially those of well educated and wealthy, fled northern China and moved to the south, due to the chaotic situation caused by 5 Hu (barbarians). Those migrants brought to the south not only the Han population, but also the advanced civilization (technologies, culture, tradition, etc.).

Whereas, in the north, those "Barbarians" ran amuck in killing and slaughtering. One of the Hu called Jie actually had the tradition of eating human flesh. Han population was greatly diluted in North. Historian Fan Wenlan in his <<Chinese General History>> (4 Volumes) depicted this period as "groups of beasts inter-fighting in madness". It was the south that had more "pure" Han people and more "standard" Chinese culture at that time.

Some smart Hu, such as 刘渊 of Zhao (前赵), who was a Xiongnu, realized that killing Han did not help protect their establishment. Rather, they needed to hire Han people and learn advanced Han cultures, many times following the examples of the Southern Dynasties. Ironically, some of the northern Hus started with an intention to assimilate Han in to their group of national, they instead were finally assimilated into Han. I think the reasons are many but vital ones are that their culture was backward, and they did not have their writing system/language so they had to adopt Chinese language in writing.

In a positive tone, as one Chinese scholar said, thanks to Han cultures, our ancestors were having the name/attributes with weeds, insects, and animals, now we have removed them. ( But, some of the unfortunate people in this forum haven't)

You can refer to various well established studies on this subject. See for instance Sixteen Kingdoms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia quote:"By 317 AD, Jin forces had been completely driven out of North China. An attempt to recover the Central China plain under general Zu Ti (祖逖) was initially successful in recovering all of Henan and Shandong but ended with Zu's death in 321 AD"


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## StarCraft_ZT

gpit said:


> I am not sure if northern Chinese are more Huaxia than the southern ones. In fact the reverse might be very true.
> 
> Around "16 kingdoms of the 5 Hus" period (五胡十六国, 309AD-439AD), huge amount of Hans, especially those of well educated and wealthy, fled northern China and moved to the south, due to the chaotic situation caused by 5 Hu (barbarians). Those migrants brought to the south not only the Han population, but also the advanced civilization (technologies, culture, tradition, etc.).
> 
> Whereas, in the north, those "Barbarians" ran amuck in killing and slaughtering. One of the Hu called Jie actually had the tradition of eating human flesh. Han population was greatly diluted in North. Historian Fan Wenlan in his <<Chinese General History>> (4 Volumes) depicted this period as "groups of beasts inter-fighting in madness". It was the south that had more "pure" Han people and more "standard" Chinese culture at that time.
> 
> Some smart Hu, such as 刘渊 of Zhao (前赵), who was a Xiongnu, realized that killing Han did not help protect their establishment. Rather, they needed to hire Han people and learn advanced Han cultures, many times following the examples of the Southern Dynasties. Ironically, some of the northern Hus started with an intention to assimilate Han in to their group of national, they instead were finally assimilated into Han. I think the reasons are many but vital ones are that their culture was backward, and they did not have their writing system/language so they had to adopt Chinese language.
> 
> In a positive tone, as one Chinese scholar said, thanks to Han cultures, our ancestors were having the name/attributes with weeds, insects, and animals, now we have removed them.
> 
> You can refer to various well established studies on this subject. See for instance Sixteen Kingdoms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia quote:"By 317 AD, Jin forces had been completely driven out of North China. An attempt to recover the Central China plain under general Zu Ti (祖逖) was initially successful in recovering all of Henan and Shandong but ended with Zu's death in 321 AD"



So, we are descendants of barbarians?

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## ChineseTiger1986

gpit said:


> I am not sure if northern Chinese are more Huaxia than the southern ones. In fact the reverse might be very true.
> 
> Around "16 kingdoms of the 5 Hus" period (五胡十六国, 309AD-439AD), huge amount of Hans, especially those of well educated and wealthy, fled northern China and moved to the south, due to the chaotic situation caused by 5 Hu (barbarians). Those migrants brought to the south not only the Han population, but also the advanced civilization (technologies, culture, tradition, etc.).
> 
> Whereas, in the north, those "Barbarians" ran amuck in killing and slaughtering. One of the Hu called Jie actually had the tradition of eating human flesh. Han population was greatly diluted in North. Historian Fan Wenlan in his <<Chinese General History>> (4 Volumes) depicted this period as "groups of beasts inter-fighting in madness". It was the south that had more "pure" Han people and more "standard" Chinese culture at that time.
> 
> Some smart Hu, such as 刘渊 of Zhao (前赵), who was a Xiongnu, realized that killing Han did not help protect their establishment. Rather, they needed to hire Han people and learn advanced Han cultures, many times following the examples of the Southern Dynasties. Ironically, some of the northern Hus started with an intention to assimilate Han in to their group of national, they instead were finally assimilated into Han. I think the reasons are many but vital ones are that their culture was backward, and they did not have their writing system/language so they had to adopt Chinese language in writing.
> 
> In a positive tone, as one Chinese scholar said, thanks to Han cultures, our ancestors were having the name/attributes with weeds, insects, and animals, now we have removed them. ( But, some of the unfortunate people in this forum haven't)
> 
> You can refer to various well established studies on this subject. See for instance Sixteen Kingdoms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia quote:"By 317 AD, Jin forces had been completely driven out of North China. An attempt to recover the Central China plain under general Zu Ti (祖逖) was initially successful in recovering all of Henan and Shandong but ended with Zu's death in 321 AD"



From the genetic perspective, they are slightly closer to the original Huaxia.

And there are also many back emigration. Take Xi Jinping for example, his ancestors during the Song Dynasty has fled to Jiangxi from North China, but started from the Ming Dynasty, his ancestors moved back to Henan again.

Many modern North Chinese also descended from this back emigration wave, that's why they also carry the mtDNA of the southern aborigines, albeit less than the modern South Chinese.

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## Rent

tonyget said:


> What's Hmong's status in Vietnam ?


Hi There,

I don't know the status of Hmong in Vietnam. But I can tell you about the Hmong where I am at, there are two tribes of Hmong, the White and Green tribes/community. I was told that they do not get along well with one another. Nevertheless, they are very generous people and has an organized community. They appear very carefree about current events.

Even in today's modern society, they still elect a tribal leader within their community. The community held a magnificently, grand festival and comes together every year during the Hmong New Year. It is one of the most spectacular site. The girls will dress up in there traditional attires, decorated with shimmering silver jewelries. The sounds of fun, filled with songs, dances and laughters at every turn. 

I have been very honored to attend several of their New Year Festivals as well as being invited into their homes to eat Hmong's version of phở noodle soup. It is much sweeter than Vietnamese phở with a lot more sugar added, but it is delicious all the same.

In several occasions, I was invited to their past time chicken fight matches, where imported giant Cornish Game Cocks dual it out on a drawn out dirt arena. There are many, many more positive things to say about their culture.

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## Aepsilons

Rent said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I don't know the status of Hmong in Vietnam. But I can tell you about the Hmong where I am at, there are two tribes of Hmong, the White and Green tribes/community. I was told that they do not get along well with one another. Nevertheless, they are very generous people and has an organized community. They appear very carefree about current events.
> 
> Even in today's modern society, they still elect a tribal leader within their community. The community held a magnificently, grand festival and comes together every year during the Hmong New Year. It is one of the most spectacular site. The girls will dress up in there traditional attires, decorated with shimmering silver jewelries. The sounds of fun, filled with songs, dances and laughters at every turn.
> 
> I have been very honored to attend several of their New Year Festivals as well as being invited into their homes to eat Hmong's version of phở noodle soup. It is much sweeter than Vietnamese phở with a lot more sugar added, but it is delicious all the same.
> 
> In several occasions, I was invited to their past time chicken fight matches, where imported giant Cornish Game Cocks dual it out on a drawn out dirt arena. There are many, many more positive things to say about their culture.



I've worked with the Hmong community before -- for research; the objective was to examine their oral folklore traditions' , and the effects of Hmong culture's influence in marriage, higher education, language. They (Hmong) are quite an interesting group because of the resistance to assimilate in some instances, many of whom prefer starting families early on and marrying within tribes. They are a strong, cohesive minority group, i admit.

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## Rent

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I've worked with the Hmong community before -- for research; the objective was to examine their oral folklore traditions' , and the effects of Hmong culture's influence in marriage, higher education, language. They (Hmong) are quite an interesting group because of the resistance to assimilate in some instances, many of whom prefer starting families early on and marrying within tribes. They are a strong, cohesive minority group, i admit.


I agree, they do have an distinctive culture to some extent. Especially their views toward marriage as you have stated.

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## Rent

@Nihonjin1051-san,

You have been quietly observing every comments in this forum, what is your current stand on this topic? If you don't mind me asking. I would like hear your opinions.

Much advance appreciation on your input(s).

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> You lie, Hokkien people or Min Nan don't shared same blood line with Han Chinese in He Nan. Your apperance does not looks like northern Han Chinese in He Nam and He Bei.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You speak Hokkien language, in which is still reserved many word from Altaic language, today speak by Korean and Japanese, example of Hokkiens word compare it with current korean and japanese word:
> 
> FLAG ~ Hokkien : Ki ..Korean : Ki .. Japanese : Ki
> THANKS/GRATITUDE ~ Hokkien : Kam sia ..Korean : Kam Sa.. Japanese : Kansha
> SUCCESS ~ Hokkien : Seng Kong.. Korea : Song Kong.. Japanese : Seikoo
> PROGRESS ~ Hokkien : Chin Por.. Korean : Chin Bo ..Japanese : Shinpo
> NEWS ~ Hokkien : Sin Boon ..Korean : Sin Mun ..Japanese : Shin Bun
> SIMPLE ~ Hokkien : Kan Tan ..Korean : Gand Dan ..Japanese : Kan Tan
> TIME ~ Hokkien : Si Kan .. Korean : Si Kan .. Japanese : Ji Kan
> PREPARE ~ Hokkien : Choon Pi ..Korean : Joon Pi .. Japanese : Jun Bi
> 
> So Min Nan (Hokkien) people should been mixed from Min Yue and Dong Yi.



Do you see the yellow portion? All Han sub-groups are predominantly O3a carriers.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Do you see the yellow portion? All Han sub-groups are predominantly O3a carriers.



he he, you quoted very fast, I forget that I ignored him.

O3a is common cluster shared by Mongolid race people in Asia, including Chinese in general, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Manchurian, Vietnamese and even though Kazakhstan people.

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## Aepsilons

Rent said:


> @Nihonjin1051-san,
> 
> You have been quietly observing every comments in this forum, what is your current stand on this topic between Viet and Han? Has your analysis come into a conclusion? If you don't mind me asking. I would like hear your opinions.
> 
> Much advance appreciation on your input(s).



Greetings @Rent , 

I didn't know someone was observing me observing.  

The history of Vietnam is, indeed, very interesting. The proto-Vietnamese identity can be traced back to the rule of the Hung kings during the Early Hong Bang Dynasty. I believe the Vietnamese refer to this era as the period of Hung Vuong. The arrival of Chinese influence into Vietnam started as a cultural wave, through trade, through language, through writing systems, as well as through philosophical exchange. This eventually culminated into military intervention as seen when the Han Army invaded Nam Viet in 111 BC. This domination continued throughout history and despite Chinese dynastic changes. We see this from the Han dynasty, to the Liang dynasty, the Tang dynasty. Interspersed throughout period were instances of popular civil revolt such as the ones led by the Trung sisters, and those by Ly Bon, Phung Hung and Thuc Loan. Tho these rebellions ended in failure, these are examples of Vietnamese people’s wish to be free from foreign domination.

Their history (Vietnam’s) is filled with foreign intervention. They range from the Champ, the Khmers, the Chinese, the Mongols (Yuan), the Qing, the French, the Japanese, the French again, the Americans, and recently the Chinese. Its natural that Vietnamese become sensitive when being invoked into a psychological abuse by referring to their history of domination. What national would respond sans emotion ? I personally don’t think its constructive for the Chinese and Vietnamese members to hurl invectives on each other; but, rather, should understand that history has bound them to each other and that there should be an appreciation on both parties – for each other’s historical commonality, cultural similarity, yet diverging national development. 

The Chinese endured a very cruel 19th and early 20th century, being subject to the whim of the Imperial powers, the forced implementation of the Spheres of Influence, the loss of land and territory, the opiate trade that debilitated many a generation of Chinese. The Vietnamese, too, were subject to imperial domination in the form of the French; who colonized not only Dai Viet, but Laos and Cambodia. So in that respect, both China and Vietnam have a history of being perturbed and dominated by foreign colonial powers. 

There should be a mutual respect and appreciation for each others’ common sufferings during this time. Rather than debasing each other through non-productive insults, should discourse on issues that would better Vietnam and China. In regards to territory, that shouldn’t be used to hurl racist comments on each other. Chinese side shouldn’t refer to Vietnamese as “monkeys”, or “macaca nigra” as some are prone to saying. Its rather hurtful because members from around the world visit this forum and many from Africa, or many who are African-American. Thus, I emphasize that posts here should be considerate of their substance. The same goes for the Vietnamese posters ; to respond with grace and sobriety. 

*Sincerely,

I remain,

@Nihonjin1051*

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> he he, you quoted very fast, I forget that I ignored him.
> 
> O3a is common cluster shared by Mongolid race people in Asia, including Chinese in general, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Manchurian, Vietnamese and even though Kazakhstan people.



But only the Han Chinese are predominantly O3a, so this means this is our unique gene marker.

Other people acquiring O3a by intermarrying with us.


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## xesy

Grand Historian said:


> Vietnamese spoke a variant of Chinese throughout history which explains why there are so many Chinese words in modern day Vietnamese languages.
> 
> 
> Except Vietnamese parade it as the truth and seek to claim southern China as their own ie Rechoice,if they were from southern China they wouldn't be called Vietnamese now would they.


There are also French words and English words too. Yet as I know the mojority of VNese during the colonial period and VN war did not speak those two like a mother tongue.

There are extrimists around, they can claim what they want. Us the majority VNese don't really follow them. We are fine with our territory now, don't plan on "taking anything back" or "reclaiming our lost territories" like China.

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## xesy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Greetings @Rent ,
> 
> I didn't know someone was observing me observing.
> 
> The history of Vietnam is, indeed, very interesting. The proto-Vietnamese identity can be traced back to the rule of the Hung kings during the Early Hong Bang Dynasty. I believe the Vietnamese refer to this era as the period of Hung Vuong. The arrival of Chinese influence into Vietnam started as a cultural wave, through trade, through language, through writing systems, as well as through philosophical exchange. This eventually culminated into military intervention as seen when the Han Army invaded Nam Viet in 111 BC. This domination continued throughout history and despite Chinese dynastic changes. We see this from the Han dynasty, to the Liang dynasty, the Tang dynasty. Interspersed throughout period were instances of popular civil revolt such as the ones led by the Trung sisters, and those by Ly Bon, Phung Hung and Thuc Loan. Tho these rebellions ended in failure, these are examples of Vietnamese people’s wish to be free from foreign domination.
> 
> Their history (Vietnam’s) is filled with foreign intervention. They range from the Champ, the Khmers, the Chinese, the Mongols (Yuan), the Qing, the French, the Japanese, the French again, the Americans, and recently the Chinese. Its natural that Vietnamese become sensitive when being invoked into a psychological abuse by referring to their history of domination. What national would respond sans emotion ? I personally don’t think its constructive for the Chinese and Vietnamese members to hurl invectives on each other; but, rather, should understand that history has bound them to each other and that there should be an appreciation on both parties – for each other’s historical commonality, cultural similarity, yet diverging national development.
> 
> The Chinese endured a very cruel 19th and early 20th century, being subject to the whim of the Imperial powers, the forced implementation of the Spheres of Influence, the loss of land and territory, the opiate trade that debilitated many a generation of Chinese. The Vietnamese, too, were subject to imperial domination in the form of the French; who colonized not only Dai Viet, but Laos and Cambodia. So in that respect, both China and Vietnam have a history of being perturbed and dominated by foreign colonial powers.
> 
> There should be a mutual respect and appreciation for each others’ common sufferings during this time. Rather than debasing each other through non-productive insults, should discourse on issues that would better Vietnam and China. In regards to territory, that shouldn’t be used to hurl racist comments on each other. Chinese side shouldn’t refer to Vietnamese as “monkeys”, or “macaca nigra” as some are prone to saying. Its rather hurtful because members from around the world visit this forum and many from Africa, or many who are African-American. Thus, I emphasize that posts here should be considerate of their substance. The same goes for the Vietnamese posters ; to respond with grace and sobriety.
> 
> *Sincerely,
> 
> I remain,
> 
> @Nihonjin1051*


Well said, my friend.

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## Grand Historian

xesy said:


> There are also French words and English words too. Yet as I know the mojority of VNese during the colonial period and VN war did not speak those two like a mother tongue.
> 
> There are extrimists around, they can claim what they want. Us the majority VNese don't really follow them. We are fine with our territory now, don't plan on "taking anything back" or "reclaiming our lost territories" like China.


You don't seem to realize that Vietnamese elites literally spoke a Sinitic language,and shifted to a Muong language after Le Loi won.



EastSea said:


> he he, you quoted very fast, I forget that I ignored him.
> 
> O3a is common cluster shared by Mongolid race people in Asia, including Chinese in general, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Manchurian, Vietnamese and even though Kazakhstan people.


Some O3a subclades originated in Sino Tibetans ie JST002611,M134,M117.

Even so how can you explain the Y haplogroup similarities of Henan and Fujian Han?


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## xesy

Grand Historian said:


> You don't seem to realize that Vietnamese elites literally spoke a Sinitic language,and shifted to a Muong language after Le Loi won.


There were much more Chinese world in VNese dictionary a few years back ( maybe 5%, I am not sure). Some scholars even feared that we needed to "purify" VNese before it got mixed up with Chinese, for cultural preservation of course. But with the internet rapid expansion in VN, VNese got even more messed up and now no one ever care about the purity of our language anymore. If it can be used to communicate between Vnese, it is VNese. Almost all minor ethics in VN has their own languages, but slowly they changed to Kinh as that is the dominant culture in VN right now.

I am no historian or language expert to argue with you about our langue, sorry about that.

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## Aepsilons

xesy said:


> Well said, my friend.



Keep calm, brother. Stay classy


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## Rent

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Greetings @Rent ,
> 
> I didn't know someone was observing me observing.
> 
> The history of Vietnam is, indeed, very interesting. The proto-Vietnamese identity can be traced back to the rule of the Hung kings during the Early Hong Bang Dynasty. I believe the Vietnamese refer to this era as the period of Hung Vuong. The arrival of Chinese influence into Vietnam started as a cultural wave, through trade, through language, through writing systems, as well as through philosophical exchange. This eventually culminated into military intervention as seen when the Han Army invaded Nam Viet in 111 BC. This domination continued throughout history and despite Chinese dynastic changes. We see this from the Han dynasty, to the Liang dynasty, the Tang dynasty. Interspersed throughout period were instances of popular civil revolt such as the ones led by the Trung sisters, and those by Ly Bon, Phung Hung and Thuc Loan. Tho these rebellions ended in failure, these are examples of Vietnamese people’s wish to be free from foreign domination.
> 
> Their history (Vietnam’s) is filled with foreign intervention. They range from the Champ, the Khmers, the Chinese, the Mongols (Yuan), the Qing, the French, the Japanese, the French again, the Americans, and recently the Chinese. Its natural that Vietnamese become sensitive when being invoked into a psychological abuse by referring to their history of domination. What national would respond sans emotion ? I personally don’t think its constructive for the Chinese and Vietnamese members to hurl invectives on each other; but, rather, should understand that history has bound them to each other and that there should be an appreciation on both parties – for each other’s historical commonality, cultural similarity, yet diverging national development.
> 
> The Chinese endured a very cruel 19th and early 20th century, being subject to the whim of the Imperial powers, the forced implementation of the Spheres of Influence, the loss of land and territory, the opiate trade that debilitated many a generation of Chinese. The Vietnamese, too, were subject to imperial domination in the form of the French; who colonized not only Dai Viet, but Laos and Cambodia. So in that respect, both China and Vietnam have a history of being perturbed and dominated by foreign colonial powers.
> 
> There should be a mutual respect and appreciation for each others’ common sufferings during this time. Rather than debasing each other through non-productive insults, should discourse on issues that would better Vietnam and China. In regards to territory, that shouldn’t be used to hurl racist comments on each other. Chinese side shouldn’t refer to Vietnamese as “monkeys”, or “macaca nigra” as some are prone to saying. Its rather hurtful because members from around the world visit this forum and many from Africa, or many who are African-American. Thus, I emphasize that posts here should be considerate of their substance. The same goes for the Vietnamese posters ; to respond with grace and sobriety.
> 
> *Sincerely,
> 
> I remain,
> 
> @Nihonjin1051*


Wow. Very impressive observations. Arigatou gozaimasu for the enlighten advices, Nihonjin1050-san.


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## William Hung

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Greetings @Rent ,
> 
> I didn't know someone was observing me observing.



I was observing them observing him observing you observing them.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> But only the Han Chinese are predominantly O3a, so this means this is our unique gene marker.
> 
> Other people acquiring O3a by intermarrying with us.



O3a is common monochrome of Mongoloid race, who came from Afrca and scattered in Asia, it is not Han chinese own cluster.

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## Aepsilons

Rent said:


> Wow. Very impressive observations. Arigatou gozaimasu for the enlighten advices, Nihonjin1050-san.



I wish I knew your nationality so I could respond in your native tongue. 

Douitashimashite
Kam sa ham nida
Bu Yong Xie
Khong co chi 
Walang Anuman
De Nada
Terima Kasih
Mai Pben Rai Krahp
Bao Pben Nyang
chee ooh-ah lee chya





Black Flag said:


> I was observing them observing him observing you observing them.



Turn around, @Black Flag , I'm breathing down your neck. 

Joke!

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## Aepsilons

Rent said:


> In several occasions, I was invited to their past time chicken fight matches, where imported giant Cornish Game Cocks dual it out on a drawn out dirt arena. There are many, many more positive things to say about their culture.



This is very interesting , i think this is a South East Asian culture affinity ? When i was in Cebu , Philippines for the first time many years ago -- my female friend took me to a town called Daan Bantayan in the north of the island and in the center of the town, there is a cock fight stadium where men from all over the town come , converge and bet on who's going to win. Its rather pleasant to watch, the lively action of them betting. Sad to see the cocks die tho. i also know that in Thailand and Cambodia -- they are also fond of these. I didn't know Hmong were also into it. Interesting.

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## xesy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> This is very interesting , i think this is a South East Asian culture affinity ? When i was in Cebu , Philippines for the first time many years ago -- my female friend took me to a town called Daan Bantayan in the north of the island and in the center of the town, there is a cock fight stadium where men from all over the town come , converge and bet on who's going to win. Its rather pleasant to watch, the lively action of them betting. Sad to see the cocks die tho. i also know that in Thailand and Cambodia -- they are also fond of these. I didn't know Hmong were also into it. Interesting.


Have you seen dog races? Pretty interesting, I must say.

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## Rechoice

Grand Historian said:


> Southern China wasn't the native land of Huaxia neither was it Vietnamese,all civilizations expand if they have the military might Vietnam is no different.
> 
> 
> How many lies do I have to bust?
> 
> Explain why craniological studies show that modern day Southern Han cluster the closest to the Hua of Zhou-Western Jin as well as Y haplogroup proportions show that Fujianese Han cluster with Henan Han.
> 
> 
> Except southern Chinese are not the same as the Baiyue,they are descendants of Hua/Han males and native women.
> 
> Are central or southern Vietnamese slaves of northern Vietnamese because their lands used to be inhabited by Chams,Khmers and Chinese?
> 
> 
> Except that all your surnames originated in China,NiceGuy tried to claim otherwise and I showed him that there are Shang era bronzes referencing those names.
> 
> Except historically Northern Han as well as Southern Han have been migrating to Vietnam,while Han Chinese don't have Vietnamese blood.
> 
> You don't have any proof Van Lang existed or that it ruled southern China,we've been over this before you are academically dishonest.
> 
> Vietnamese spoke a variant of Chinese throughout history which explains why there are so many Chinese words in modern day Vietnamese languages.
> 
> 
> Except Vietnamese parade it as the truth and seek to claim southern China as their own ie Rechoice,if they were from southern China they wouldn't be called Vietnamese now would they.
> 
> 
> Neither northern or southern Han are pure anymore,nor are Han Chinese pure in the first place.



Vietnamese speak Mon/Khmer language, Chinese Han people speak Sino-Tibetan language. Such loan words don't say nothing other than in the past Han Zi used for writing in Vietnam.\

There is good move when we changed or writing system from Han Zi to Latin Alphabet. So we could reserve our origin verbal talking.

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## Rent

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I wish I knew your nationality so I could respond in your native tongue.
> 
> Douitashimashite
> Kam sa ham nida
> Bu Yong Xie
> Khong co chi
> Walang Anuman
> De Nada
> Terima Kasih
> Mai Pben Rai Krahp
> Bao Pben Nyang
> chee ooh-ah lee chya


The fourth one down will do.

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## Aepsilons

xesy said:


> Have you seen dog races? Pretty interesting, I must say.



Wow, interesting ! 

The only form of competition where I actually bet considerable amount of capital would be Sumo.

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## xesy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Wow, interesting !
> 
> The only form of competition where I actually bet considerable amount of capital would be Sumo.


I have been always wondering if there is actually some kind of weight system for sumo warriors, you know like boxing? Cause I see sometimes competitors are about the same weight, sometimes competitors are totally different. Like this








I know it's just for fun but are there actually any kinds of match that smaller competitor goes against bigger one?

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## Aepsilons

@dahuilang942 , @Rent 

Do you think there's some semblance to the ethnic regalia of the Hmong (Miao) and the Zhuang ? I mean, both are ethnic minorities of China. 

The Zhuang,









This Zhuang man with an instrument, which looks like the Kaen (commonly used in Thailand and Laos)








-------------

The Hmong (Miao),


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## William Hung

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Turn around, @Black Flag , I'm breathing down your neck.
> 
> Joke!



Everyone is breathing down each others neck here, even though 80% posts in this section are only trolling posts. Alot of them are taking it too seriously. 



xesy said:


> Have you seen dog races? Pretty interesting, I must say.


Nah dog racing is from the west, it's not very interesting. 

Sumo racing would be much more interesting.

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## xesy

Black Flag said:


> Sumo racing would be much more interesting.


Takashi catsle, have you watched it? Sumo football (American football) is hilarious.

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> You don't seem to realize that *Vietnamese elites literally spoke a Sinitic language,and shifted to a Muong language after Le Loi won.*
> 
> 
> Some O3a subclades originated in Sino Tibetans ie JST002611,M134,M117.
> 
> Even so how can you explain the Y haplogroup similarities of Henan and Fujian Han?


really? I did not know it. Le Loi came from Thanh Hoa province, the place you considered as less-sinicized. So he was the man who enforced a new spoken language?


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## Viet

not sure if this is historically correct. battle formation under the Ly dynasty:


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## EastSea

北國之春 said:


> Vietnam, don't be afraid, we protect you.



You don't. 

Mongolian and Manchurian, white man ruled you. You can't protect Viet, just bully us.



北國之春 said:


> learn China.



What does "Northern Countrty's Spring" mean ? Will be Color revolution in China soon ? When ? 

We can wait what happen in China then we can learn from it.

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## sicsheep

EastSea said:


> What does "Northern Countrty's Spring" mean ? Will be Color revolution in China soon ? When ?



of course you wouldn't know, back then you did have Text yet. 

When did smart viet people invent their text? please let us know, this is after all a thread about Vietnam


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## EastSea

北國之春 said:


> Don't be afraid, Vietnam is our fifty-seventh peoples.
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam bride and their children asked Vietnam joined Chinese, this is the future of the color revolution in Vietnam



Ha ha,

This chinese black kid could ask China to join to Nigeria too.

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## EastSea

北國之春 said:


> Vietnam is also has a lot of girls as prostitutes, what does it matter?



The mother of mix kid is chinese woman living in shanghai and she is not prostitute. she was fallen in love with an African even she is married with Chinese man.

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## EastSea

北國之春 said:


> Yes, love, your country is not a hooker?



I advice you, stop troll on woman when you have nothing related to the thread to discus here.


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## EastSea

北國之春 said:


> I like the Vietnamese girl is wrong?



You troll, uneducated boy.

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## EastSea

北國之春 said:


> Your heart is too narrow, I worked in Vietnam, Hu Zhiming work for three years, many Vietnamese girl like me, I also love them.



don't lie again,

You can not type correctly the name of City where you worked in 3 year. Is lying a Chinese character ?


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## EastSea

北國之春 said:


> We call it like Xigong, don't worry, we'll be friends.



It is Saigon not Xigong. Chinese are untrusted people. "Look at what chinese do, don't hear what chinese say"

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## EastSea

北國之春 said:


> This is our Chinese Pinyin name, I like Vietnam, like Xigong.



It mean you never been to Saigon.


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## FairAndUnbiased

EastSea said:


> It mean you never been to Saigon.



Its showing you maximum disrespect by refusing to call your country by your own name, but by the name we chose for you. Why is he showing you disrespect? Well, you have to think about that for yourself. Have you done something to earn his disrespect? Ask yourself that, and you will have your answer.


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## EastSea

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Its showing you maximum disrespect by refusing to call your country by your own name, but by the name we chose for you. Why is he showing you disrespect? Well, you have to think about that for yourself. Have you done something to earn his disrespect? Ask yourself that, and you will have your answer.



what do you talking about ? the name of Vietnam ?

Dont forget that our Nguyen Dynasty Gia Long Emperor should got back the name NamViet, the name of Kingdom created by Zhioa Tuo in ancient time. But Man Qing Emperor was afraid that we could claimed back our ancient land in Guangxi and Guangdong, so he requested to change the NamViet to Vietnam. But our Emperor didn't agreed so he has been changed the name of our country to Dai Nam (Great Nam).

In the year 1945, Ho Chi Ming decided to change from An Nam back to Vietnam, it was based on idea of our fortune teller Nguyen Binh Khiem,阮秉謙; in 15th century,
*This is the Vietnamese equivalent of the Nostradamus quatrains. It is suggestive, believed to predict future events, and very mysterious. This poem includes the line, "Vietnam is being created" (Vietnamese: Việt Nam khởi tổ xây nền), an early use of the word "Vietnam".
*

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## Viet

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Its showing you maximum disrespect by refusing to call your country by your own name, but by the name we chose for you. Why is he showing you disrespect? Well, you have to think about that for yourself. Have you done something to earn his disrespect? Ask yourself that, and you will have your answer.


I don't understand why you are barking. Do you want to claim copyright? and should we pay a fee for using the name vietnam?

We wanted the name nam viet, but you refused by a reason. You suggested viet nam, and we agreed. That is a story. Both neither china nor vietnam wanted a confrontation just because of a name. A compromise.


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## Rent

EastSea said:


> it was based on idea of our fortune teller Nguyen Binh Khiem,阮秉謙; in 15th century,


I have seen a portrait hung in Vietnam honoring the sage Nguyễn Bỉnh Khiêm. The portrait depict Nguyễn Bỉnh Khiêm in heaven with Victor Hugo and Sun Yat Sen signing a peace accord.

I found it. Here it is.

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## Aepsilons

Rent said:


> I have seen a portrait hung in Vietnam honoring the sage Nguyễn Bỉnh Khiêm. The portrait depict Nguyễn Bỉnh Khiêm in heaven with Victor Hugo and Sun Yat Sen signing a peace accord.
> 
> I found it. Here it is.



What an impressive find ! Thank you @Rent -San.

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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> There should be a mutual respect and appreciation for each others’ common sufferings during this time. Rather than debasing each other through non-productive insults, should discourse on issues that would better Vietnam and China. In regards to territory, that shouldn’t be used to hurl racist comments on each other. Chinese side shouldn’t refer to Vietnamese as “monkeys”, or “macaca nigra” as some are prone to saying. Its rather hurtful because members from around the world visit this forum and many from Africa, or many who are African-American. Thus, I emphasize that posts here should be considerate of their substance. The same goes for the Vietnamese posters ; to respond with grace and sobriety.
> 
> *Sincerely,
> 
> I remain,
> 
> @Nihonjin1051*


Have u ever read The True Story of Ah Q ?? "spiritual victories" is Chinese national character. Can not hope those Chinese here change their character even when in real life many poor Chinese end up their lives in Trash bin (even worse than a life of a monkey in the zoo ) like Ah Q.


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## Aepsilons

NiceGuy said:


> Have u ever read The True Story of Ah Q ?? "spiritual victories" is Chinese national character. Can not hope those Chinese here change their character even when in real life many poor Chinese end up their lives in Trash bin (even worse than a life of a monkey in the zoo ) like Ah Q.



I read of this book, yes. Its a poignant example for all of us to be wary of our manners, the way we treat each other.

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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I read of this book, yes. Its a poignant example for all of us to be wary of our manners, the way we treat each other.


Yeah, thats the good lesson for not only Chinese but for all of us. If u r weak - poor and have no freedom, then just admit it and try to find out the solution. Think we r "superior" to our oppressors to gain "spiritual victories" only lead us to the miserable death (for example : die in Trash bin like Chinese kids)

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## Aepsilons

NiceGuy said:


> Yeah, thats the good lesson for not only Chinese but for all of us. If u r weak - poor and have no freedom, then just admit it and try to find out the solution. Think we r "superior" to our oppressors to gain "spiritual victories" only lead us to the miserable death (for example : die in Trash bin like Chinese kids)



All of us may learn of the poignant message in the analects regarding Ah Q, as well as the message of the Master Sage Kong Xi (Confucius) who once said, "Humility is the solid foundation of all the virtues; he who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Let's apply this wisdom in our lives.

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## Rent

It is a nice portrait. I wonder who drew this and when? I hope to find out the name and see other works of this artist someday.


Nihonjin1051 said:


> What an impressive find ! Thank you @Rent -San.


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## FairAndUnbiased

Viet said:


> I don't understand why you are barking. Do you want to claim copyright? and should we pay a fee for using the name vietnam?
> 
> We wanted the name nam viet, but you refused by a reason. You suggested viet nam, and we agreed. That is a story. Both neither china nor vietnam wanted a confrontation just because of a name. A compromise.



I'm not barking, I'm saying he's showing you maximum disrespect, and it is true. I didn't say anything about you, it's all about him.


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## dichoi

EastSea said:


> what do you talking about ? the name of Vietnam ?
> 
> Dont forget that our Nguyen Dynasty Gia Long Emperor should got back the name NamViet, the name of Kingdom created by Zhioa Tuo in ancient time. But Man Qing Emperor was afraid that we could claimed back our ancient land in Guangxi and Guangdong, so he requested to change the NamViet to Vietnam. But our Emperor didn't agreed so he has been changed the name of our country to Dai Nam (Great Nam).
> 
> In the year 1945, Ho Chi Ming decided to change from An Nam back to Vietnam, it was based on idea of our fortune teller Nguyen Binh Khiem,阮秉謙; in 15th century,
> *This is the Vietnamese equivalent of the Nostradamus quatrains. It is suggestive, believed to predict future events, and very mysterious. This poem includes the line, "Vietnam is being created" (Vietnamese: Việt Nam khởi tổ xây nền), an early use of the word "Vietnam".*



when you could read The Đại Nam thực lục (大南實錄), Chronicle of Greater Nam Empire, (The true record of the Great South) are annual records of the Nguyễn Dynasty, the dynasty of Nguyen clan from Thanh Hoa, who (officially) ruled Vietnam until 1945.

In the first paragraph of this history book, it stated that Nguyen Kim warlord went to south Vietnam (around 1600 year) because he has been followed the advice of Ngyen Binh Khiem: " Hoành Sơn nhất đái, vạn đại dung thân" (The long mountain of highlands , to be exist for ever).

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## EastSea

dichoi said:


> when you could read The Đại Nam thực lục (大南實錄), Chronicle of Greater Nam Empire, (The true record of the Great South) are annual records of the Nguyễn Dynasty, the dynasty of Nguyen clan from Thanh Hoa, who (officially) ruled Vietnam until 1945.
> 
> In the first paragraph of this history book, it stated that Nguyen Kim warlord went to south Vietnam (around 1600 year) because he has been followed the advice of Ngyen Binh Khiem: " Hoành Sơn nhất đái, vạn đại dung thân" (The long mountain of highlands , to be exist for ever).



I know this story, bro. Pls to read my signature.

Are you came from Thanh Hoa ?


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## EastSea

FairAndUnbiased said:


> I'm not barking, I'm saying he's showing you maximum disrespect, and it is true. I didn't say anything about you, it's all about him.



what kind of disrespect here is, don't forget that Han Chinese invaded in to Vietnam, Ma Yuan 馬援 general of Han Dynasty has destroyed our country, all books were burnt and and our bronze drums were robbed and brought to China. we were forced to use Han Zi for writing, our tonge is effected with Han-Viet loan word... 

This is crime of Han Chinese. Do you understand ?


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> what kind of disrespect here is, don't forget that Han Chinese invaded in to Vietnam, Ma Yuan 馬援 general of Han Dynasty has destroyed our country, all books were burnt and and our bronze drums were robbed and brought to China. we were forced to use Han Zi for writing, our tonge is effected with Han-Viet loan word...
> 
> This is crime of Han Chinese. Do you understand ?



The Trung sisters were the aggressors, so they should get curbed down.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Trung sisters were the aggressors, so they should get curbed down.



Trung sister has been rebelling to kick out Han Chinese invaders from our soil. She is our hero.

Your leader Mao Zedong said : rebel has a right. Learn it !

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## dichoi

EastSea said:


> I know this story, bro. Pls to read my signature.
> 
> Are you came from Thanh Hoa ?



don't say about Hoa Thanh Que here, bro.


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## EastSea

dichoi said:


> don't say about Hoa Thanh Que here, bro.



Not to be so sensible bro, My ancestor came to south Vietnam from Thanh Hoa quan ngoai too, but more early than Nguyen Hoang. 

Do you know where is Thanh Hoa quan ngoai in history of Vietnam ?


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Trung sister has been rebelling to kick out Han Chinese invaders from our soil. She is our hero.
> 
> Your leader Mao Zedong said : rebel has a right. Learn it !



You stay in your jungle, while we have in our Great China, fair for everyone.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You stay in your jungle, while we have in our Great China, fair for everyone.



Chinese aggressor has big population and invaded in to Vietnam. God punished you when you were slaves of Mongolian, Manchurian , Japanese and white man. Its fair for you too.


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## Rent

Thank you FairAndUnbiased for being fair and unbiased. It seems like 北國之春's perverted comments have been cleaned out by Webmaster over night. We don't need to waste our time over him no longer.



FairAndUnbiased said:


> I'm not barking, I'm saying he's showing you maximum disrespect, and it is true. I didn't say anything about you, it's all about him.


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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> Chinese aggressor has big population and invaded in to Vietnam. God punished you when you were slaves of Mongolian, Manchurian , Japanese and white man. Its fair for you too.


Not this nonsense again,all you do is repeat the same lies over and over again.

China invaded Vietnam because Vietnamese raided Chinese provinces or killed Chinese embassies.

Considering how Kinh Vietnamese have Chinese blood in them you would be insulting your own ancestors.

Then again you ignored me because you can never provide a proper rebuttal

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## Rent

We will certainty enjoy our Eden. I hope PRC see the same way you do.
Let us focus on the topic of discussion in this forum.


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You stay in your jungle, while we have in our Great China, fair for everyone.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> Chinese aggressor has big population and invaded in to Vietnam. God punished you when you were slaves of Mongolian, Manchurian , Japanese and white man. Its fair for you too.



For us, the hell started since 1840.

However, now we still make the greatest comeback in the history of the mankind.

Our life is full of vitality, and we are the true comeback kid. We will re-build our great civilization again, but think about yourself, do you ever create your own civilization? LMAO


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## dichoi

EastSea said:


> Not to be so sensible bro, My ancestor came to south Vietnam from Thanh Hoa quan ngoai too, but more early than Nguyen Hoang.
> 
> Do you know where is Thanh Hoa quan ngoai in history of Vietnam ?



don't challenge me, Thanh Hoa quan Ngoại is Ninh Bình province today.

Ninh Bình – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

When did your ancestor wen to south ?


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## Rent

EastSea said:


> Not to be so sensible bro, My ancestor came to south Vietnam from Thanh Hoa quan ngoai too, but more early than Nguyen Hoang.
> 
> Do you know where is Thanh Hoa quan ngoai in history of Vietnam ?


Xin chào EastSea,

You say you are from Thanh Hoa? Is that where the statue of Tran Hung Dao is located at? I would like to hear about the history of Thanh Hoa quan ngoai.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> For us, the hell started since 1840.
> 
> However, now we still make the greatest come back in the history of the mankind.
> 
> Our life is full of vitality, and we are the true comeback kid. We will re-build our great civilization again, but think about yourself, do you ever create your own civilization? LMAO



you say about jungle people, but you forgot Nomad people. The hell started from 1271 when Kubai Khan leader of the Borjigin clan conqured and ruled China .

What is Vietnam civilization ? It is Vietnamese culture and his own history, even though it wwas bittery history. Vietnam is still existed in the world, did not disappeared in the map of world today like you, Wu Yue people. It is Vietnam civilization.


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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> What is Vietnam civilization ? It is Vietnamese culture and his own history, even though it ứa bittery. Vietnam is still existed in the world, did not disappeared in the map of world today like you, Wu Yue people.



We are Chinese, our spirit is Chinese.

Wu Yue is just a subgroup of China, so it is Min Yue and Nan Yue.

You keep getting butthurt about China's rise, but we will keep moving forward.

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## Rent

I understand and knows the history of the first Opium War too well. I am very sorry that you feel this way. I see your reasons, but don't push this blame on us. We Southeast Asian would rather enjoy living freely in our beautiful Garden of Eden. 

Please let me know how I may help you. If everyone in this forum allows, we may talk more about your feelings if you wish.


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> For us, the hell started since 1840.
> 
> However, now we still make the greatest comeback in the history of the mankind.
> 
> Our life is full of vitality, and we are the true comeback kid. We will re-build our great civilization again, but think about yourself, do you ever create your own civilization? LMAO

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## EastSea

Rent said:


> Xin chào EastSea,
> 
> You say you are from Thanh Hoa? Is that where the statue of Tran Hung Dao is located at? I would like to hear about the history of Thanh Hoa quan ngoai.



Tran Hung Dao is not came from Thanh Hoa quan ngoai, Tran clan first came from Luu Xa (in Thai Binh Province today) and moved later on to Thien Truong perfectue of Sơn Nam Hạ province (old name of Nam Định province today) in Vietnam history. 

I guess that your family name is Trần, right ?


----------



## FairAndUnbiased

Rent said:


> I understand and knows the history of the first Opium War too well. I am very sorry that you feel this way. I see your reasons, but don't push this blame on us. We Southeast Asian would rather enjoy living freely in our beautiful Garden of Eden.



Don't blame you, just don't get in the way. Remember this though - no science in the Garden of Eden, only listening to orders.


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## Rent

We will listen to heaven's will. For heaven is on our side. It is the Mandate of Heaven for us to vanquish evil. Remember that.


FairAndUnbiased said:


> Don't blame you, just don't get in the way. Remember this though - no science in the Garden of Eden, only listening to orders.





EastSea said:


> Tran Hung Dao is not came from Thanh Hoa quan ngoai, Tran clan first came from Luu Xa (in Thai Binh Province today) and moved later on to Thien Truong perfectue of Sơn Nam Hạ province (old name of Nam Định province today) in Vietnam history.
> 
> I guess that your family name is Trần, right ?


No bro, I googled Thanh Hoa and the statue of Tran Hung Dao pop up in the city. That is why I asked.

Thank you for the information by the way.

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## FairAndUnbiased

Rent said:


> We will listen to heaven's will. For heaven is on our side. It is the Mandate of Heaven for us to vanquish evil. Remember that.



No evil here. Chinese have not invaded any other country for 65 years, and even if we have, it was nothing compared to the vast crimes of some certain other countries. Meanwhile, your former country has persecuted its Chinese population. Before wishing for the smiting of all evil, think about who has done worse, and who will be the smiting hammer.


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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We are Chinese, our spirit is Chinese.
> 
> Wu Yue is just a subgroup of China, so it is Min Yue and Nan Yue.
> 
> You keep getting butthurt about China's rise, but we will keep moving forward.



when you troll on Trung sister, it is bluthurt to Vietnamese, She is the symbol of our struggle to regain our independence from China, and France.. So to réspond it in the same manner I should tell you about GouJian (姒句踐) and Wu Yue people.

China rise is good, but go ahead in right way and correct direction.


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## Rent

That is good. Keep an evil free China. Keep it that way from now on and rebuilt China to its former glory. Remember to think about the welfare of its citizen, despite their inherited genealogy. Remember, you guys are the next generation of a healthy China. Do not let the citizens suffer from constant warfares. 

My best wishes.


FairAndUnbiased said:


> No evil here. Chinese have not invaded any other country for 65 years, and even if we have, it was nothing compared to the vast crimes of some certain other countries. Meanwhile, your former country has persecuted its Chinese population. Before wishing for the smiting of all evil, think about who has done worse, and who will be the smiting hammer.

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## EastSea

Rent said:


> No bro, I googled Thanh Hoa and the statue of Tran Hung Dao pop up in the city. That is why I asked.
> Thank you for the information by the way.



I googled too, but it found that in Khanh Hòa - Nha Trang set up statue of Tran Hung Dao, not Thanh Hoa.

Đúc tượng Trần Hưng Đạo nặng 10 tấn bên bờ biển Nha Trang | Văn hóa | VOV - ĐÀI TIẾNG NÓI VIỆT NAM


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## Rent

EastSea said:


> I googled too, but it found that in Khanh Hòa - Nha Trang set up statue of Tran Hung Dao, not Thanh Hoa.
> 
> Đúc tượng Trần Hưng Đạo nặng 10 tấn bên bờ biển Nha Trang | Văn hóa | VOV - ĐÀI TIẾNG NÓI VIỆT NAM


I saw a picture of the statue in Wikipedia when I search Thanh Hoa. I guess you can't trust Wikipedia. I don't get to travel much with my Dad.

What was the history in Thanh Hoa that you were referring to?


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## EastSea

Rent said:


> I saw a picture of the statue in Wikipedia when I search Thanh Hoa. I guess you can't trust Wikipedia. I don't get to travel much with my Dad.
> 
> What was the history in Thanh Hoa that you were referring to?



I think I did the same, with the tag "tuong tran hung dao o thanh hoa" and chocked in *web* first, and I checked one by one, ... then *images* and last to the *news. *in the same manner but I didn't found it.

I'm not living Than Hoa now, but I think Thanh Hoa province (đất quận Cửu Chân in the past) is very important area of Vietnam, it was called " Đất Thang mộc ". Some one is my friend from North Vietnam, he said that Thanh Hoa is native land (home town ) of five Dynasty of Vietnam and Nine generation of war lords who have been reigned our country until recently . Nguyen Dynasty from Nguyen Hoang is came from Ha Trung, Thanh Hoa.


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## Rent

EastSea said:


> I think I did the same, with the tag "tuong tran hung dao o thanh hoa" and chocked in *web* first, and I checked one by one, ... then *images* and last to the *news. *in the same manner but I didn't found it.
> 
> I'm not living Than Hoa now, but I think Thanh Hoa province (đất quận Cửu Chân in the past) is very important area of Vietnam, it was called " Đất Thang mộc ". Some one is my friend from North Vietnam, he said that Thanh Hoa is native land (home town ) of five Dynasty of Vietnam and Nine generation of war lords who have been reigned our country until recently . Nguyen Dynasty from Nguyen Hoang is came from Ha Trung, Thanh Hoa.


That is very interesting. Now I really want to hear you and @dichoi debate on this subject.


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## Rent

We are not ignoring on purpose. We see that you are a talented and a knowledgable person and do not want to spoil our relationship with you. I see that you wield Guan Yu as your avatar. You believe in righteousness. You my join us, because we would all love to hear your friendly opinions on the subject matter. However, no more insults of ancestors and disrespect for others history. No put downs! Agree?


Grand Historian said:


> Not this nonsense again,all you do is repeat the same lies over and over again.
> 
> China invaded Vietnam because Vietnamese raided Chinese provinces or killed Chinese embassies.
> 
> Considering how Kinh Vietnamese have Chinese blood in them you would be insulting your own ancestors.
> 
> Then again you ignored me because you can never provide a proper rebuttal

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> We are not ignoring on purpose. We see that you are a talented and a knowledgable person and do not want to spoil our relationship with you. I see that you wield Guan Yu as your avatar. You believe in righteousness. You my join us, because we would all love to hear your friendly opinions on the subject matter. However, no more insults of ancestors and disrespect for others history. No put downs! Agree?


I insult those who rely on nationalistic reinterpretations of history,relying on myths and legends as proof how mighty their kingdom/state/ethnicity was(this also includes Chinese).

If you're going to prove that the Hung Kings existed then provide some sources other than texts written thousands of years later.

Really the disrespect is mainly from the Vietnamese side go read EastSea or Rechoice's posts always clamoring how Chinese stole Vietnamese lands,how Southern Han Chinese should reclaim independence,how Chinese stole Vietnaemse culture etc.

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## Rent

I would like to address a neutral word of my opinion to all. We all know both of our history too well, the greatest to the shamed, as well as history of others cultures. Let us learn from it so that we do not make the same mistake as before. Let us focus our energy together as intellects in rebuilding our country so that we may be proud of it, for the better good of our people and humanity while maintaining mutual respect for each other's countries.

When we lose hope or become frustrated on our current and future endeavors, remember this: The Forbidden Palace was built without using a single nail to sustain its structure, therefore, one do not need to rely on aggressive force to maintain a strong governance structure.

My best wishes to all and thank you for taking your time out to read this.

@Grand Historian[/USER, @[USER=162108]FairAndUnbiased[/USER, @[USER=162108]ChineseTiger1986[/USER,
@[USER=162108]viet[/USER, @[USER=162108]dichoi[/USER, @[USER=162108]EastSea[/USER, @[USER=162108]xesy[/USER, @[USER=162108]Black Flag[/USER,
@[USER=162108]NiceGuy[/USER, @[USER=162108]starcraft_ZT[/USER[/USER][/USER][/USER][/USER][/USER][/USER][/USER][/USER][/USER]

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## dichoi

Rent said:


> That is very interesting. Now I really want to hear you and @dichoi debate on this subject.



"5 Vua, 9 chúa" , is regionalism, but 5 Vua is debated.

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## Aepsilons

Rent said:


> When we lose hope or become frustrated on our current and future endeavors, remember this: The Forbidden Palace was built without using a single nail to sustain its structure, therefore, one do not need to rely on aggressive force to maintain a strong governance structure.



I'm impressed with your humility, respect and grace , @Rent - Senpai. I wish that many of us would behave with the same decorum that you have shown to all of us here, in fact, i will say that your interaction with all the users so far have been respectable and agreeable. Wishing for more continued interaction with you, and long may you always grace us with your membership and activity.

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## tonyget

I feel sorry for Vietnam.

Vietnam culture had been changed a lot during French colonial era. The French forced Vietnam abolish her traditional language and adopt French designed alphabet language.Viets were culturally conquered and totally brainwashed by white men.

Why does Vietnam continue to use this language left by former master, even after you get independent from France ? This language is a symbol of shame and humiliation. Why can't Vietnam grow some self-esteem and do what Algeria did, reinstate traditional language's official status(in Algeria's case is Arabic) as soon as you become your own men ?


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## NiceGuy

tonyget said:


> I feel sorry for Vietnam.
> 
> Vietnam culture had been changed a lot during French colonial era. The French forced Vietnam abolish her traditional language and adopt French designed alphabet language.Viets were culturally conquered and totally brainwashed by white men.
> 
> Why does Vietnam continue to use this language left by former master, even after you get independent from France ? This language is a symbol of shame and humiliation. Why can't Vietnam grow some self-esteem and do what Algeria did, reinstate traditional language's official status(in Algeria's case is Arabic) as soon as you become your own men ?


Bcz its easier to learn that Chinese writing, thats why most of VNese can read and write while millions Chinese can not write Chinese characters properly.


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## sicsheep

NiceGuy said:


> Chinese characters properly





NiceGuy said:


> Bcz its easier to learn that Chinese writing, thats why most of VNese can read and write while millions Chinese can not write Chinese characters properly.



Vietnam literacy rate 2002 est 94%
China Literacy rate 2002 est 95.1%
am I missing something here? 
We must be smart to learn such difficult language then lol


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## Aepsilons

So what's the final conclusion?

Both China and Vietnam have high literacy rates.


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## sicsheep

Nihonjin1051 said:


> So what's the final conclusion?
> 
> Both China and Vietnam have high literacy rates.



I don't draw any conclusions, but his statement more people in Vietnam can read than China is simply not true. 

we also have many tens of millions minority that does not speak in Chinese (or any local tone), therefore does not read or write chinese (like Tibetans, Mongolians, Hui, and uyghur and Koreans ethnics).

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## NiceGuy

sicsheep said:


> Vietnam literacy rate 2002 est 94%
> China Literacy rate 2002 est 95.1%
> am I missing something here?
> We must be smart to learn such difficult language then lol


Im saying that Chinese character is hard to memorize and *write properly,* not abt literacy.

Every VNese can write VNese easily when lots of Chinese worry that they cant write their character property now.


> *Chinese*
> *COLUMN ONE*
> *China worries about losing its character(s)*
> *More and more Chinese are realizing they can't remember exactly how to write a given character.*
> July 12, 2010|By Barbara Demick, Los Angeles Times
> 
> 
> Reporting from Beijing — Texting and typing are replacing the elaborate strokes that make up written Chinese. And when it comes time to jot down a few words, more Chinese are realizing they can't remember exactly how.
> 
> For Ma Silang, the long descent into forgetfulness began after he graduated from high school, went off to London for three years to study photography and bought his first computer.
> 
> Now the 30-year-old fashion photographer, a native Beijinger, has such difficulty writing in his mother tongue that the other day when he was scribbling a shopping list for himself he suddenly realized that he had forgotten one of two characters that make up the Chinese word for "shampoo."
> 
> "It is inevitable that we forget our Chinese characters unless we make a special effort to practice writing a few hours each week, and who has time for that?" said Ma, looking up from an iPhone on which he was tapping a message while waiting for his MacBook to be repaired at Beijing's Apple store.
> 
> 
> 
> China worries about losing its character(s) - Los Angeles Times

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## Aepsilons

sicsheep said:


> I don't draw any conclusions, but his statement more people in Vietnam can read than China is simply not true.
> 
> we also have many tens of millions minority that does not speak in Chinese (or any local tone), therefore does not read or write chinese (like Tibetans, Mongolians, Hui, and uyghur and Koreans ethnics).



Chinese written language is one of the hardest to master. Unlike Latin alphabet where there's only 26 letters , there are thousands of Hanzi characters. Mastery of Chinese written language takes years to accomplish.

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## Edison Chen

NiceGuy said:


> Bcz its easier to learn that Chinese writing, thats why most of VNese can read and write while millions Chinese can not write Chinese characters properly.



Chinese character is pictograph, it's more complicated to write. English or other alphabetic writing are alphabetical.

This is two different system of language. Alphabetical is easy to write and speak out, pictograph language like cuneiform in old Egypt and Hanzi in China is hard to write, but a single character could carry more meanings than alphabetical language.

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## Aepsilons

Edison Chen said:


> Chinese character is pictograph, it's more complicated to write. English or other alphabetic writing are alphabetical.
> 
> This is two different system of language. Alphabetical is easy to write and speak out, pictograph language like cuneiform in old Egypt and Hanzi in China is hard to write, but a single character could carry more meanings than alphabetical language.




Reminds me when I was younger, every time I did not know the meaning of a Kanji character, my elementary teacher would hit our fingers with a ruler. Talk about forced memorization eh? Lol.

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## Edison Chen

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Chinese written language is one of the hardest to master. Unlike Latin alphabet where there's only 26 letters , there are thousands of Hanzi characters. Mastery of Chinese written language takes years to accomplish.



There is thousands of common used Hanzi, you can combine them to form new words, and those words are easy to understand the meaning and speak out, only if you master the several thousand Hanzi. If you know each Hanzi's meaning, you will know the combination's meaning. While English is different, in each professional field with natural science, every letter can form a totally new words, you can read it, but you will never know its meaning. So this is Hanzi's advantage. With only limited number of characters, you will know more words. Hanzi is more conclusive and broad.

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## sicsheep

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Chinese written language is one of the hardest to master. Unlike Latin alphabet where there's only 26 letters , there are thousands of Hanzi characters. Mastery of Chinese written language takes years to accomplish.



thousands of Hanzi characters are not alphabets, they are words made up by the same type of strokes, as 26 alphabets make up millions of words, which some are also hard to spell out some times? the English dictionary is just as big as the Chinese one right? 

I think Japanese should understand this better than any, the difference between Kanji, Hiragana and Katakana, just as we have Pinyin needed to interface with computers which were invented by the west, if so difficult, why is Kanji still being used in Japan?

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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Chinese written language is one of the hardest to master. Unlike Latin alphabet where there's only 26 letters , there are thousands of Hanzi characters. Mastery of Chinese written language takes years to accomplish.


Chinese abandoned their clothing style, housing style, hair style etc and adopt many kinds of Western style,its time for Chinese to abandon their character, too coz many of them can not write it property now

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## tonyget

NiceGuy said:


> Im saying that Chinese character is hard to memorize and *write properly,* not abt literacy.
> 
> Every VNese can write VNese easily when lots of Chinese worry that they cant write their character property now.





You don't need to memorize all of it, nowadays most of word processing are being done on computer, even people who don't know how to write Chinese character by hand can type it using PinYin input


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## Edison Chen

sicsheep said:


> thousands of Hanzi characters are not alphabets, they are words made up by the same type of strokes, as 26 alphabets make up millions of words, which some are also hard to spell out some times? the English dictionary is just as big as the Chinese one right?
> 
> I think Japanese should understand this better than any, the difference between Kanji, Hiragana and Katakana, just as we have Pinyin needed to interface with computers which were invented by the west, if so difficult, why is Kanji still being used in Japan?



This is exactly my point. 汉字说到底就是那么几千个常用字，可以组成很多语言和词语，你只要明白每个字的意思，大概就懂得这个词的意思。英语完全不一样，不同字母组成的新词层出不穷，根本不好记忆的，虽然词根有迹可循，但是词义还是无法明了。


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## xesy

tonyget said:


> I feel sorry for Vietnam.
> 
> Vietnam culture had been changed a lot during French colonial era. The French forced Vietnam abolish her traditional language and adopt French designed alphabet language.Viets were culturally conquered and totally brainwashed by white men.
> 
> Why does Vietnam continue to use this language left by former master, even after you get independent from France ? This language is a symbol of shame and humiliation. Why can't Vietnam grow some self-esteem and do what Algeria did, reinstate traditional language's official status(in Algeria's case is Arabic) as soon as you become your own men ?


Because Chinese was also the language of another master, who failed to protect VN from the West. It was never the traditional language of our ancestor, as it was only used by the few elite and governers. Also like I said the leaders at that time (1940s) needed a new writing system for their people (for better education), and latin alphabet was the best candinate.

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## Shishike

Edison Chen said:


> This is exactly my point. 汉字说到底就是那么几千个常用字，可以组成很多语言和词语，你只要明白每个字的意思，大概就懂得这个词的意思。英语完全不一样，不同字母组成的新词层出不穷，根本不好记忆的，虽然词根有迹可循，但是词义还是无法明了。


and grammar of Chinese is the easiest, whatever the way you combine words, Chinese speaker can understand you immediately, maybe some weird sense, but DOES NO MATTER.

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## dichoi

Shishike said:


> and grammar of Chinese is the easiest, whatever the way you combine words, Chinese speaker can understand you immediately, maybe some weird sense, but DOES NO MATTER.



Using Han Zi (chinese characters) to writing is like learning one foreign language. Our language belong to Mon/Khmer language, Chinese belong to Sino-Tibetan. Only elite people studied Han Zi can understand. I post here one text quoted from my Family Tree:

遵 奉
如 來 遺 教 臣 弟子字 法 道 謹 誠 隍 誠 恐 稽 首 叩 首 百 拜
上 言 伏 以

I translated in to Han Viet sound what elite read and say in voices:

_tuân phụng
như lai di giáo thần đệ tử pháp đạo cẩn thành hoàng thành khủng khể thủ khấu thủ bách bái
Thượng ngôn phục dĩ_.

I think all my country man who did not studied Han Zi, could not understand correctly what is this. This is very stranger sound for ordinary Vietnamese people to hear it.

So, using Latin alphabet for writing Vietnamese is best solution for us.

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## tonyget

xesy said:


> Because Chinese was also the language of another master, who failed to protect VN from the West. It was never the traditional language of our ancestor, as it was only used by the few elite and governers. Also like I said the leaders at that time (1940s) needed a new writing system for their people (for better education), and latin alphabet was the best candinate.




What about Chữ Nôm ?


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## dichoi

tonyget said:


> What about Chữ Nôm ?



who can write and read Chữ Nôm, he have to fluently in Han Zi first,

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## tonyget

dichoi said:


> who can write and read Chữ Nôm, he have to fluently in Han Zi first,



Then what exactly is Vietnam traditional language, aside from Chinese and Chữ Nôm ?


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## mrfly911

dichoi said:


> Using Han Zi (chinese characters) to writing is like learning one foreign language. Our language belong to Mon/Khmer language, Chinese belong to Sino-Tibetan. Only elite people studied Han Zi can understand. I post here one text quoted from my Family Tree:
> 
> 遵 奉
> 如 來 遺 教 臣 弟子字 法 道 謹 誠 隍 誠 恐 稽 首 叩 首 百 拜
> 上 言 伏 以
> 
> I translated in to Han Viet sound what elite read and say in voices:
> 
> _tuân phụng
> như lai di giáo thần đệ tử pháp đạo cẩn thành hoàng thành khủng khể thủ khấu thủ bách bái
> Thượng ngôn phục dĩ_.
> 
> I think all my country man who did not studied Han Zi, could not understand correctly what is this. This is very stranger sound for ordinary Vietnamese people to hear it.
> 
> So, using Latin alphabet for writing Vietnamese is best solution for us.


Sound is great but I don't understand the meaning

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## EastSea

mrfly911 said:


> Sound is great but I don't understand the meaning



he he, I think chinese member can understand what does this text mean in Han Zi . but vietnamese member does not understand it even thought it translated in to Han Viet text.

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## somsak

dichoi said:


> Using Han Zi (chinese characters) to writing is like learning one foreign language. Our language belong to Mon/Khmer language, Chinese belong to Sino-Tibetan. Only elite people studied Han Zi can understand. I post here one text quoted from my Family Tree:
> 
> 遵 奉
> 如 來 遺 教 臣 弟子字 法 道 謹 誠 隍 誠 恐 稽 首 叩 首 百 拜
> 上 言 伏 以
> 
> I translated in to Han Viet sound what elite read and say in voices:
> 
> _tuân phụng
> như lai di giáo thần đệ tử pháp đạo cẩn thành hoàng thành khủng khể thủ khấu thủ bách bái
> Thượng ngôn phục dĩ_.
> 
> I think all my country man who did not studied Han Zi, could not understand correctly what is this. This is very stranger sound for ordinary Vietnamese people to hear it.
> 
> So, using Latin alphabet for writing Vietnamese is best solution for us.


Khmer language is non tonal with "rrrr" sound. Thai and Viet are tonal without "rrrr" sound. I bet we are in the same family as Chinese. Thai and Chinese Manddarin share a lot similar words. pa - lips, sai- sand

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## Andy Lan

somsak said:


> Khmer language is non tonal with "rrrr" sound. Thai and Viet are tonal without "rrrr" sound. I bet we are in the same family as Chinese. Thai and Chinese Manddarin share a lot similar words. pa - lips, sai- sand


emmmmmmmmmmmmm>_<
I'm afraid not
Let me tell you the truth:
lips-zui chun 嘴唇，sand-sha 沙(砂)


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## dichoi

tonyget said:


> Then what exactly is Vietnam traditional language, aside from Chinese and Chữ Nôm ?



Vietnamese language was identified as part of the Mon-Khmer branch of the Austroasiatic language family , a family that includes Khmer people spoken in Cambodia, as Mon people spoken in Myanma, Khmu people spoken in Laos.

Vietnamese language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## tonyget

dichoi said:


> Vietnamese language was identified as part of the Mon-Khmer branch of the Austroasiatic language family , a family that includes Khmer people spoken in Cambodia, as Mon people spoken in Myanma, Khmu people spoken in Laos.
> 
> Vietnamese language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




I'm talking about written language


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## mrfly911

tonyget said:


> Then what exactly is Vietnam traditional language, aside from Chinese and Chữ Nôm ?


When talking, we use Vietnamese (grammar + pronunciation).
When writing,Vietnamese used Chinese characters with Chinese grammar. But we pronounce it by Vietnamese voice. Everyone can heard it but only elite can read and understand the meaning

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## dichoi

somsak said:


> Khmer language is non tonal with "rrrr" sound. Thai and Viet are tonal without "rrrr" sound. I bet we are in the same family as Chinese. Thai and Chinese Manddarin share a lot similar words. pa - lips, sai- sand



at begining, vietnamese language was no tonal and multy-silable, it is developed later on and becoming tonal and mono-silable.

For exemple, in the past we say "B'lơi" (God or Heaven in English), today we say "Trời" (Hán Việt : Thiên or Tian in Chinese).

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## tonyget

People in China/Taiwan/HK/Japan etc can learn Chinese character, why can't Viets ? It's not like Viets are dumber.


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## dichoi

tonyget said:


> I'm talking about written language



since 2000 year ago, I think only Han Zi and Chữ Nôm existed in Vietnam. I'm doubt about this characters were found by same mighty document preserved by Muong people in Vietnam.

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## mrfly911

tonyget said:


> People in China/Taiwan/HK/Japan etc can learn Chinese character, why can't Viets ? It's not like Viets are dumber.


Calm down my Chinese dude!
Everyone on the world can learn Chinese character, not only smart people.
But we see Chinese character is difficult to learn and remember. And Latin writing system is easy.
We Vietnamese have the right to choose what writing system we like

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## dichoi

tonyget said:


> People in China/Taiwan/HK/Japan etc can learn Chinese character, why can't Viets ? It's not like Viets are dumber.



don't troll kid.

we don't like idiot chinese say that we copy Han zi from you. It ís better to stop it.

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## EastSea

tonyget said:


> People in China/Taiwan/HK/Japan etc can learn Chinese character, why can't Viets ? It's not like Viets are dumber.





dichoi said:


> don't troll kid.
> 
> we don't like idiot chinese say that we copy Han zi from you. It ís better to stop it.



ha , ha, @dichoi you can know true face of chinese member here.


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## tonyget

dichoi said:


> don't troll kid.
> 
> we don't like idiot chinese say that we copy Han zi from you. It ís better to stop it.




Does it even matter ? Japanese never mind that Kanji was from China, People never thought about England when they speak English.

Don't be paranoid, we're not going to charge you royalty fees for using Chinese character.



mrfly911 said:


> Calm down my Chinese dude!
> Everyone on the world can learn Chinese character, not only smart people.
> But we see Chinese character is difficult to learn and remember. And Latin writing system is easy.
> We Vietnamese have the right to choose what writing system we like




Latin writing doesn't have any historical root in Vietnam, it's not the language your ancestor use.

You claim that you are proud of your long history but refuse your historical language, this makes your claim very unpersuasive.


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## EastSea

tonyget said:


> Does it even matter ? Japanese never mind that Kanji was from China, People never thought about England when they speak English.
> 
> Don't be paranoid, we're not going to charge you royalty fees for using Chinese character.



Read more here and shut a mouth up.

Can China legally prevent Japan of using Kanji in their culture?


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## mrfly911

tonyget said:


> Latin writing doesn't have any historical root in Vietnam, it's not the language your ancestor use.
> You claim that you are proud of your long history but refuse your historical language, this makes your claim very unpersuasive.


Friend, we proud of our long history but we choose the best thing for our future. It's just the writing system, not the speaking and grammar.
You Chinese has changed the Chinese traditional character to simple character. It's same as us.

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## tonyget

mrfly911 said:


> Friend, we proud of our long history but we choose the best thing for our future. It's just the writing system, not the speaking and grammar.
> You Chinese has changed the Chinese traditional character to simple character. It's same as us.




I am all for traditional character, I hate simplified character, but I don't make rules.

I insist that Han Zi is not difficult for Vietnam public to learn, while our Viets friends insist that it is too difficult for them to learn. So who is the one insulting Vietnamese intelligence and capability now ?


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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> don't troll kid.
> 
> we don't like idiot chinese say that we copy Han zi from you. It ís better to stop it.


Except that Vietnamese did copy Hanzi,just like most of your culture is derived from China.

Then again you're trying to deny that 漢 means Chinese,so its not surprising you'll try to deny Hanzi as well.


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## NiceGuy

tonyget said:


> I am all for traditional character, I hate simplified character, but I don't make rules.
> 
> I insist that Han Zi is not difficult for Vietnam public to learn, while our Viets friends insist that it is too difficult for them to learn. So who is the one insulting Vietnamese intelligence and capability now ?


Okay, Han Zi is not difficult for us to learn, but it waste our time to learn when learning Latin is much faster and Han Zi is quite useless in VN.

So we dont wanna waste our time for some unimportant things, thats all, bro

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## mrfly911

tonyget said:


> I am all for traditional character, I hate simplified character, but I don't make rules.
> 
> I insist that Han Zi is not difficult for Vietnam public to learn, while our Viets friends insist that it is too difficult for them to learn. So who is the one insulting Vietnamese intelligence and capability now ?


Well, I said that Chinese character are more difficultly to write and remember than Latin.
IMHO, smart people choose the easiest way to do

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## tonyget

NiceGuy said:


> Okay, Han Zi is not difficult for us to learn, but it waste our time to learn when learning Latin is much faster and Han Zi is quite useless in VN.
> 
> So we dont wanna waste our time for some unimportant things, thats all, bro




Primary education duration is the same in China and Vietnam, you're not saving any time by learning Latin .


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## NiceGuy

tonyget said:


> Primary education duration is the same in China and Vietnam, you're not saving any time by learning Latin .


After the Primary education , VN kids can read and write VN character well when Chinese even after high school graduated still forget some characters


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## Rent

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
-Albert Einstein

Quốc ngữ was chosen and widely used by the people in Vietnam as their own system of writing starting around the early 1700s. This was before French Indochina in 1887. At that time, the ruling monarch was still using Confucian Script as the official writing system. It wasn't until 1918-1921 when Confucian Script was completely abolished by the ruling monarch in favor of the majority.

Other writing systems did not work for the people of this land as a whole. There is no one perfect system for all. For now, Quốc ngữ appears to be working for many of the inhabitants out of the 54 ethnic groups in Vietnam. Although, this is just the beginning. A fully educated country is a strong, wealthy and prosperous country.

The issue is not on which writing system is better than the other, nor is it about influences of one culture to another. The above history may be conceived as dangerous for many ruling classes because it demonstrates how the voices of the majority can topple and change status quo. Even so, an elastic government that can check and sustain the balance of powers between itself and the people will not fall. This is what our generation should focus our energy towards building.


tonyget said:


> I feel sorry for Vietnam.
> 
> Vietnam culture had been changed a lot during French colonial era. The French forced Vietnam abolish her traditional language and adopt French designed alphabet language.Viets were culturally conquered and totally brainwashed by white men.
> 
> Why does Vietnam continue to use this language left by former master, even after you get independent from France ? This language is a symbol of shame and humiliation. Why can't Vietnam grow some self-esteem and do what Algeria did, reinstate traditional language's official status(in Algeria's case is Arabic) as soon as you become your own men ?

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## sicsheep

mrfly911 said:


> Well, I said that Chinese character are more difficultly to write and remember than Latin.
> IMHO, smart people choose the easiest way to do



If we write in Pinyin, we'd also spell 100%,
but this is where we are different? our written language is more than just a tool for us, it is what defines our culture(i think Indians, Koreans, Japanese would all agree) , If you had your own, you'd understand


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## Rent

I would like to add that, even though Confucian Script was abolished, Confucian's teaching still remain and preserved as the base of Vietnamese culture and way of thinking.

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## Rent

I would like to think that Vietnam, is a fusion (a melting pot) of many cultures, which, in itself is unique. Like many soups, it is composed of many different ingredients, but the name of the soup defines itself.

India is a country full of mystics and great sages (Guru) throughout its history. Please specify which scripts are used to define its culture. Please correct me if I am wrong. Currently it is officially Devanagari script, Hindu and English. Other Brahmic scripts within the family include, but not limited to Aramaic script, Gupta script (5th century), Siddhaṃ alphabet (6th century), Grantha alphabet (6th century), Vatteluttu alphabet (8th century), Śāradā script (9th century), Devanagari (10th century), modern Telugu script, undeciphered Indus script, and Tamil (Damili). There is also Vedic sanskrit plus many more.


sicsheep said:


> If we write in Pinyin, we'd also spell 100%,
> but this is where we are different? our written language is more than just a tool for us, it is what defines our culture(i think Indians, Koreans, Japanese would all agree) , If you had your own, you'd understand

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## xesy

tonyget said:


> Primary education duration is the same in China and Vietnam, you're not saving any time by learning Latin .


"Quốc ngữ", or VNese latin writing was created by a French Christian priest to match the oral language of VNese people. It focuses on recording the vocal of the language, rather than the meaning of words (while both Chinese and English focus more on the meaning of words, less on the vocal). Also VNese has a loose grammar structure, and the speaking grammar is a nightmare to any foreigners want to learn VNese.

Choosing Latin over Hanzi was a historical choice, and 3-4 generation has passed since then. VNese get used to using latin writing system which has become part of VNese culture, and will resist any changes to that. Also I am learning Japanese and their kanji so I know how hard it is to switch from latin to other type of writing system. Even simple hiragana letters take me hours of practice to write without feeling awkward.

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## EastSea

dichoi said:


> since 2000 year ago, I think only Han Zi and Chữ Nôm existed in Vietnam. I'm doubt about this characters were found by same mighty document preserved by Muong people in Vietnam.
> 
> View attachment 50648



I think we have writing characters more early, from 2,500 year.







Bàn về việc sử dụng chữ Hán và nguy cơ nô dịch văn hóa - Góc nhìn - Giaoduc.net.vn

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## sicsheep

EastSea said:


> I think we have writing characters more early, from 2,500 year.
> 
> View attachment 51664
> 
> 
> Bàn về việc sử dụng chữ Hán và nguy cơ nô dịch văn hóa - Góc nhìn - Giaoduc.net.vn



earlier than who? the Filipinos? btw if you say it is Vietnamese, care to translate whats on the writing?


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## EastSea

sicsheep said:


> earlier than who? the Filipinos? btw if you say it is Vietnamese, care to translate whats on the writing?



2,500 year is early than 2,000 year what dichoi said.

Han chinese Ma Yuan 馬援 was criminal when he invaded in our country, he burnt our book an stolen our bronze drums to china.

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## hans

By that time of Ma Yuan, VN was still far from a normal country or a culture...
It is until the VN get independent from China that concept of a country and culture was formed



EastSea said:


> 2,500 year is early than 2,000 year what dichoi said.
> 
> Han chinese Ma Yuan 馬援 was criminal when he invaded in our country, he burnt our book an stolen our bronze drums to china.

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## hans

Chinese characters is more difficult to learn than latins.
That is why many country use language like latins that represent the speaking language, rather than meaning
Yet Chinese the most efficient language in the world.
Also help to keep China united even people speak different language.



xesy said:


> "Quốc ngữ", or VNese latin writing was created by a French Christian priest to match the oral language of VNese people. It focuses on recording the vocal of the language, rather than the meaning of words (while both Chinese and English focus more on the meaning of words, less on the vocal). Also VNese has a loose grammar structure, and the speaking grammar is a nightmare to any foreigners want to learn VNese.
> 
> Choosing Latin over Hanzi was a historical choice, and 3-4 generation has passed since then. VNese get used to using latin writing system which has become part of VNese culture, and will resist any changes to that. Also I am learning Japanese and their kanji so I know how hard it is to switch from latin to other type of writing system. Even simple hiragana letters take me hours of practice to write without feeling awkward.


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## xesy

hans said:


> Chinese characters is more difficult to learn than latins.
> That is why many country use language like latins that represent the speaking language, rather than meaning
> Yet Chinese the most efficient language in the world.
> Also help to keep China united even people speak different language.


Dude, the sole purpose of any writing system is recording, whether it is dialogues, stories or histories. Don't twist it for any propaganda purpose, like unity or political purpose.
I believe each language and writing system has its own strong points. That's why people keep using them. Those that don't simply cease to exist.

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## hans

Right, simply the language is to record and communicate..Any language can work
Yet the advantage of Chinese is much significant compare with Latin language..
In modern education, Chinese is not difficult to learn.



xesy said:


> Dude, the sole purpose of any writing system is recording, whether it is dialogues, stories or histories. Don't twist it for any propaganda purpose, like unity or political purpose.
> I believe each language and writing system has its own strong points. That's why people keep using them. Those that don't simply cease to exist.


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## EastSea

hans said:


> By that time of Ma Yuan, VN was still far from a normal country or a culture...
> It is until the VN get independent from China that concept of a country and culture was formed



Trung sister kicked Han chinese To Dinh 蘇定 Su Ding ran back to China. She claimed herself as King (like Queen in UK) of us. 

It was enough.

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## FairAndUnbiased

Chinese isn't that hard. I don't know why ppl think it is hard. The writing system is relatively intuitive and the grammar is extremely easy with few exceptions. Japanese grammar is extremely difficult, with different phrases and tenses used for different relative social positions, and to top it off they have 3 writing systems, multiple pronounciations for the same character and different suffixes/prefixes to those characters.

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## xesy

hans said:


> Right, simply the language is to record and communicate..Any language can work
> Yet the advantage of Chinese is much significant compare with Latin language..
> In modern education, Chinese is not difficult to learn.


That's for you a Chinese, grew up and studied decades in a Chinese speaking community to say. Still, there is nothing wrong to be proud of your mother tongue. I respect that.

Chinese writing focuses more on the meaning, but latin is more versatile. Many languages use latin for writing, yet they are totally different languages. A same character can be used in many ways to form new words, and certainly be spoken differently. Chinese characters are more fixed, each character has a specificed meaning and is spoken only slightly different among regions and nations using them.


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## hans

So they are killed with heads send back to China....
There are too many kinds of self-claimed king in China...
Actually the Vietnam started from independence from China.
And south part of Vietnam was invaded by north Vietnam.
And then the modern Vietnam start to form



EastSea said:


> Trung sister kicked Han chinese To Dinh 蘇定 Su Ding ran back to China. She claimed herself as King (like Queen in UK) of us.
> 
> It was enough.



You are right.
That is why I have no difficulty in Japan to read names..
Yet other countries with different languages need to learn another language 



xesy said:


> That's for you a Chinese, grew up and studied decades in a Chinese speaking community to say. Still, there is nothing wrong to be proud of your mother tongue. I respect that.
> 
> Chinese writing focuses more on the meaning, but latin is more versatile. Many languages use latin for writing, yet they are totally different languages. A same character can be used in many ways to form new words, and certainly be spoken differently. Chinese characters are more fixed, each character has a specificed meaning and is spoken only slightly different among regions and nations using them.


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## xesy

hans said:


> So they are killed with heads send back to China....
> There are too many kinds of self-claimed king in China...
> Actually the Vietnam started from independence from China.
> And south part of Vietnam was invaded by north Vietnam.
> And then the modern Vietnam start to form


According to our legend, Trung sisters and their royal guards committed suicide by jumping into Hat river. And your last part is kind of messed up I can't understand it.


hans said:


> You are right.
> That is why I have no difficulty in Japan to read names..
> Yet other countries with different languages need to learn another language


Too bad the British then the American took the chance to spread English all around the world first. Chinese is more of an internal language, while English is more external.

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## EastSea

hans said:


> So they are killed with heads send back to China....
> There are too many kinds of self-claimed king in China...
> Actually the Vietnam started from independence from China.
> And south part of Vietnam was invaded by north Vietnam.
> And then the modern Vietnam start to form



It is lie. She jumped in to the river and died.

How many patriot Chinese were cutting head by Japanese WW II ?

Vietnam is dependence state from China in 938 ACE,

What was a fighting between CPC and KMT, China is independence state again from 1949 with PRC. but not fully, Taiwan is under control of USA.

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## hans

According to Chinese history record, the Trung sisters are killed and send their head to the king in China..
And I think the Chinese history record is more reliable than legend...
What I mean is modern Vietnam only forms a few hundreds years ago..
These people in Vietnam history 2000 years ago have no relationship with modern Vietnam..



xesy said:


> According to our legend, Trung sisters and their royal guards committed suicide by jumping into Hat river. And your last part is kind of messed up I can't understand it.
> 
> Too bad the British then the American took the chance to spread English all around the world first. Chinese is more of an internal language, while English is more external.



According to Chinese history record, the Trung sisters are killed and heads sent to the king of China..
I think Chinese history is more reliable..

Actually if Japan successfully control China, The Japan will also be a part of China..
Taiwan is still part of China, not independent...




EastSea said:


> It is lie. She jumped in to the river and died.
> 
> How many patriot Chinese were cutting head by Japanese WW II ?
> 
> Vietnam is dependence state from China in 938 ACE,
> 
> What was a fighting between CPC and KMT, China is independence state again from 1949 with PRC. but not fully, Taiwan is under control of USA.

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## Andy Lan

hans said:


> Right, simply the language is to record and communicate..Any language can work
> Yet the advantage of Chinese is much significant compare with Latin language..
> In modern education, Chinese is not difficult to learn.


....All the way to learn the language is the same--use it.
what's the meaning of modern education...
Chinese language has many advantages--but too difficult to learn.
I pround of it.I think our language is unique.


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## EastSea

hans said:


> According to Chinese history record, the Trung sisters are killed and heads sent to the king of China..
> I think Chinese history is more reliable..



It is boring with lying mentality of Chinese. can you quote here the evidence from 後漢書/后汉书 ? do you read this history book ?

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## hans

Yes the 后汉书 says Mayuan killed the Trung sisters and send the heads to Luoyang to the emperor..



EastSea said:


> It is boring with lying mentality of Chinese. can you quote here the evidence from 後漢書/后汉书 ? do you read this history book ?


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## xesy

hans said:


> According to Chinese history record, the Trung sisters are killed and send their head to the king in China..
> And I think the Chinese history record is more reliable than legend...
> What I mean is modern Vietnam only forms a few hundreds years ago..
> These people in Vietnam history 2000 years ago have no relationship with modern Vietnam..
> 
> 
> 
> According to Chinese history record, the Trung sisters are killed and heads sent to the king of China..
> I think Chinese history is more reliable..
> 
> Actually if Japan successfully control China, The Japan will also be a part of China..
> Taiwan is still part of China, not independent...


History is written by the victor. History is written for the victor. As I am on the side of the defeated, I don't and can't believe in Chinese record. Sorry.

Too bad VNese don't share the same belief as you do. If you ask a random VNese who they think is their most ancient ancestor, they will answer Hung Kings. You see, it's not bloodline that connect old and modern VNese. It's the spirit, the culture that connect us.

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## hans

Why do you think you have anything to do with the ancient Viet...
It different culture, different bloodline, Ancient Viet has nothing to do with modern Vietnam..
And you are in south Vietnam, which has even less connection...

Also my ancestor also defeated and merged into China family...
This kind of defeat and merge is something good...
People merged some many different race and place and finally form the China



xesy said:


> History is written by the victor. History is written for the victor. As I am on the side of the defeated, I don't and can't believe in Chinese record. Sorry.
> 
> Too bad VNese don't share the same belief as you do. If you ask a random VNese who they think is their most ancient ancestor, they will answer Hung Kings. You see, it's not bloodline that connect old and modern VNese. It's the spirit, the culture that connect us.


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## Aepsilons

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Chinese isn't that hard. I don't know why ppl think it is hard. The writing system is relatively intuitive and the grammar is extremely easy with few exceptions. Japanese grammar is extremely difficult, with different phrases and tenses used for different relative social positions, and to top it off they have 3 writing systems, multiple pronounciations for the same character and different suffixes/prefixes to those characters.


Correct.

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## EastSea

hans said:


> Yes the 后汉书 says Mayuan killed the Trung sisters and send the heads to Luoyang to the emperor..



You lie and lie again, uneducated Chinese boy.

What is in 后汉书 ? I quote here for you"

" Emperor Guangwu therefore ordered the Changsha, Hepu, and Jiaozhi Commanderies to prepare wagons and boats, to repair the roads and bridges, to open the mountain passes, and to save food supplies. In the 18th year 42, he sent Ma Yuan the General Fubo and Duan Zhi (段志) the General Lochuan to lead ten odd thousands of men from Changsha, Guiyang, Linling, and Cangwu Commanderies against them. In the summer of the next year 43, Ma recaptured Jiaozhi *and killed Zhēng Cè, Zhēng Èr, and others in battle*, and the rest scattered. He also attacked Du Yang (都陽), a rebel of the Jiuzhen Commandery, and Du surrendered and was moved, along with some 300 of his followers to Lingling Commandery. The border regions were thus pacified."

It said that she was killed in battle, didn't said that the heads were brought in to China. 

Trưng Sisters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## hans

明年正月，斩征侧、征贰，传首洛阳
From 后汉书 ..
the two are killed with heads sent to Luoyang, capital of China ..



EastSea said:


> You lie and lie again, uneducated Chinese boy.
> 
> What is in 后汉书 ? I quote here for you"
> 
> " Emperor Guangwu therefore ordered the Changsha, Hepu, and Jiaozhi Commanderies to prepare wagons and boats, to repair the roads and bridges, to open the mountain passes, and to save food supplies. In the 18th year 42, he sent Ma Yuan the General Fubo and Duan Zhi (段志) the General Lochuan to lead ten odd thousands of men from Changsha, Guiyang, Linling, and Cangwu Commanderies against them. In the summer of the next year 43, Ma recaptured Jiaozhi *and killed Zhēng Cè, Zhēng Èr, and others in battle*, and the rest scattered. He also attacked Du Yang (都陽), a rebel of the Jiuzhen Commandery, and Du surrendered and was moved, along with some 300 of his followers to Lingling Commandery. The border regions were thus pacified."
> 
> It said that she was killed in battle, didn't said that the heads were brought in China.
> 
> Trưng Sisters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## xesy

hans said:


> Why do you think you have anything to do with the ancient Viet...
> It different culture, different bloodline, Ancient Viet has nothing to do with modern Vietnam..
> And you are in south Vietnam, which has even less connection...
> 
> Also my ancestor also defeated and merged into China family...
> This kind of defeat and merge is something good...
> People merged some many different race and place and finally form the China


My ancestors were Chinese (the family tree has the name 韓信 on it, just really really far away), defeated and fled to VN a really long time ago. Even my family name is Chinese-like. I am a Northerner, BTW. 

Just the same as your ancestors, mine merged into VN and my standing is VN.

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## EastSea

hans said:


> 明年正月，斩征侧、征贰，传首洛阳
> From 后汉书 ..
> the two are killed with heads sent to Luoyang, capital of China ..



You are liar, you typed it, uneducated Chinese boy.


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## Viet

somsak said:


> Khmer language is non tonal with "rrrr" sound. Thai and Viet are tonal without "*rrrr*" sound. I bet we are in the same family as Chinese. Thai and Chinese Manddarin share a lot similar words. pa - lips, sai- sand


vietnamese language contains "r", for instance trang, trung, rung, etc...


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## hans

I pity you, guys...
fulfilled with fear to China yet so eager to challenge China.
Afraid of being invaded by China, yet so eager to invade laos and Comb...
This kind of strange behavior is something ridiculous....
That is why VN people suffer so much...



EastSea said:


> You are liar, you typed it, uneducated Chinese boy.


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## xesy

hans said:


> I pity you, guys...
> fulfilled with fear to China yet so eager to challenge China.
> Afraid of being invaded by China, yet so eager to invade laos and Comb...
> This kind of strange behavior is something ridiculous....
> That is why VN people suffer so much...


Don't know where you get that impression, but I can assure you you are wrong. I know @NiceGuy makes some ridiculous statements sometimes but he couldn't have gave you that impression. As a netizen you shouldn't listen too much govt propaganda.


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## Viet

hans said:


> There are too many kinds of self-claimed king in China...
> Actually the Vietnam started from independence from China.
> And south part of Vietnam was invaded by north Vietnam.
> And then the *modern Vietnam start to form*


pls don´t bullshit too much zhongguo ren
following your logic, modern china starts with the cultural revolution


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## hans

There is another guy @EastSea ....




xesy said:


> That is why VN people suffer so much...
> Don't know where you get that impression, but I can assure you you are wrong. I know @NiceGuy makes some ridiculous statements sometimes but he couldn't have gave you that impression. As a netizen you shouldn't listen too much govt propaganda.



I think modern China start from Republic of China, right after Qing.
Yet the connection between ancient China and modern China is so close.
And Vietnam has little connection with ancient Viet...



Viet said:


> pls don´t bullshit too much zhongguo ren
> following your logic, modern china starts with the cultural revolution


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## xesy

hans said:


> There is another guy @EastSea ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think modern China start from Republic of China, right after Qing.
> Yet the connection between ancient China and modern China is so close.
> And Vietnam has little connection with ancient Viet...


I believe NiceGuy and EastSea are both right wing VNese, maybe have some police/ military/ VCP backgrounds. They might be extreme sometimes, but most of us aren't. There is dichoi who is pretty normal. Rechoice is also a bit extreme.


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## Viet

hans said:


> I think modern China start from Republic of China, right after Qing.
> Yet the connection between ancient China and modern China is so close.
> And Vietnam has little connection with ancient Viet...


that is your view, not mine.

and yes, ancient china ended with the downfall of the ming dysnasty. and of course there was no a country called china between the collapse of the ming and qing. congrat to your new view on history.

china has little link with ancient china.

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## EastSea

hans said:


> I pity you, guys...
> fulfilled with fear to China yet so eager to challenge China.
> Afraid of being invaded by China, yet so eager to invade laos and Comb...
> This kind of strange behavior is something ridiculous....
> That is why VN people suffer so much...



uneducated chinese boy, you didn't read chinese history books. stop trolling here, shut up.


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## Andy Lan

EastSea said:


> You are liar, you typed it, uneducated Chinese boy.


Could you post some photo?
I want to know more about Hai Bà Trưng.


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## Viet

Andy Lan said:


> Could you post some photo?
> I want to know more about *Hai Bà Trưng*.


*Chồng của bà Trưng Trắc: Thi [Sách] *(husband of the elder trung sister)
from: Lê Minh Khải







“Năm thứ 16, người con gái Giao Chỉ là Trưng Trắc và em gái Trưng Nhị làm phản, tấn công [đầu não của] quận. Trưng Trắc là con gái của một Lạc tướng ở huyện Mê Linh (Mê đọc là Mê, Linh đọc là Linh). Thị lấy Thi Sách ở Chu Diên làm vợ, rất khỏe mạnh và can đảm. Thái thú Giao Chỉ là Tô Định dùng luật để trừng phạt thị. Trắc phẫn nộ vì vậy nổi dậy. Sau đó, các tộc Man ở Cửu Chân, Nhật Nam, Hợp Bố đều hưởng ứng [lời kêu gọi của chúng] và chiếm 65 thành. Trắc tự xưng là vua”

至十六年，交阯女子徵側及其妹徵貳反，攻郡。徵側者，麊泠縣雒將之女也。(麊音莫支反，泠音零。) 嫁為朱䳒人詩索妻，甚雄勇。交阯太守蘇定以法繩之，側忿，故反。於是九眞、日南、合浦蠻里皆應之，凡略六十五城，自立為王.






Phiên bản thứ hai xuất hiện sau đó gần một thế kỉ (~515-524) trong cuốn _Thủy kinh chú _ (_Shuijing zhu_ 水經注)của Li Daoyuan (Lịch Đạo Nguyên), như sau:

“Sau con trai của một Lạc tướng ở Chu Diên có tên Thi lấy con gái Lạc tướng Mê Linh là Trưng Trắc làm vợ. Trắc rất can đảm. Thị lôi kéo Thi khởi loạn (chú: gần đây khắc sai “Thi” thành “thê”), tấn công [đầu não của] châu quận và chinh phục các Lạc tướng khác, họ đều tôn Trắc làm vua, đóng đô ở Mê Linh”

後朱䳒雒將子名詩索麊冷雒將女名徵側為妻。側為人有膽勇，將詩起賊 (案近刻訛為妻)，攻破州郡，服諸雒將，皆屬徵側為王，治麊泠縣.






Sự khác biệt đầu tiên mà chúng ta thấy ở đây là trong _Thủy kinh chú, _tên của chồng Trưng Trắc là Thi chứ không phải Thi Sách. Điều này thực sự hữu lí hơn.

Ở thế kỉ XVIII có một học giả có tên là Zhao Yiqing đã chỉ ra vấn đề này trong một bản chú thích cuốn _Thủy kinh chú _do ông thực hiện – cuốn _Thủy kinh chú thích _(_Shuijing zhu shi_ 水經注釋).

Vấn đề liên quan đến chữ mà Phạm Việp hiểu là bộ phận của một cái tên, và Lịch Đạo Nguyên hiểu là một động từ có nghĩa là “tìm lấy”. Zhao Yiqing chú như sau:

“sách thê” (索妻) cũng giống như “thú phụ” (娶婦). Đoạn văn trong _Nam Man Tây Nam Di truyện _nói “giá vi Chu Diên nhân thi sách thê” hoàn toàn nhầm lẫn” 一清按索妻猶言娶婦。範史南蠻西南夷傳云，嫁為朱鳶人詩索妻，亦謬之甚矣。嫁為朱䳒人詩索妻，甚雄勇。







Điều này là có lí, bởi câu văn trong _Hậu Hán thư _là rối rắm (“Thị lấy Thi Sách ở Chu Diên làm vợ mình, rất khỏe mạnh và can đảm” – 嫁為朱䳒人詩索妻，甚雄勇), đặc biệt là câu “lấy … làm vợ mình” 嫁為. . . 妻 và sự chuyển mạch giữa “thê” và từ tiếp theo “thậm” 甚 (rất).

Mặc khác, câu văn trong _Thủy kinh chú _rất thuận “Sau con trai của một Lạc tướng ở Chu Diên có tên Thi lấy con gái Lạc tướng Mê Linh là Trưng Trắc làm vợ. Trắc rất can đảm” 後朱䳒雒將子名詩索麊冷雒將女名徵側為妻。側為人有膽勇.







Rồi ở đầu thế kỉ XX, Yang Shoujing và Xiong Huizhen đã làm một bản chú thích khác về cuốn _Thủy kinh chú – _tức _Thủy kinh chú sớ _ (Shuijing zhu shu 水經注疏) _- _trong đó họ chỉ ra rằng có một đoạn văn trong một cuốn loại thư thế kỉ X có tên _Thái Bình hoàn vũ kí _(_Taiping huanyu ji_ 太平寰宇記) trong đó chứng minh rằng từ được dùng ở khu vực đồng bằng sông hồng (tức Giao Chỉ hoặc Giao Châu) với nghĩa là “tìm lấy (vợ).

Có một đoạn văn nói về phong tục ở Giao Châu, trong đó khẳng định rằng về người đàn ông tìm lấy vợ, trước khi anh ta lấy vợ, anh ta gửi đến một mâm cau. Khi cô gái ăn hết mâm cau đó thì họ trở thành vợ chồng” 索婦之人，未婚前，先送檳榔一盤，女食盡則成親.







Vậy là có vẻ như đối với tôi đã rõ ràng rằng đoạn văn nói về hai bà Trưng trong _Thủy kinh chú _chính xác hơn ở điểm này. Tuy nhiên, thông tin được người Việt Nam ghi chép rốt cuộc lại theo _Hậu Hán thư _của Phạm Việp. Các nguồn tư liệu của người Việt cũng theo _Hậu Hán thư _theo những cách thức khác.

Tôi băn khoăn tại sao lại có chuyện đó? Có phải người ta không nhớ tên chồng bà Trưng Trắc?

Tôi đính kèm bài báo của Nguyễn Phương ở đây (Nguyen Phuong on Trung sisters).

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## hans

Also another guy @Viet , but not that bad as @NiceGuy and @EastSea 
I can understand them.
China used to have a lot of this kind of extreme guys too.
Also still some of them these days, even in this website...
Yet I think majority Chinese are not extreme.
also with the growth of China economy and military, people are more confident, normal and more treasure their life. Not like the guys listed above to threaten using military for suicide conflict..
I think with growth of VN`s economy, people will also more confident and normal..



xesy said:


> I believe NiceGuy and EastSea are both right wing VNese, maybe have some police/ military/ VCP backgrounds. They might be extreme sometimes, but most of us aren't. There is dichoi who is pretty normal. Rechoice is also a bit extreme.


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## Andy Lan

hans said:


> Also another guy @Viet , but not that bad as @NiceGuy and @EastSea
> I can understand them.
> China used to have a lot of this kind of extreme guys too.
> Also still some of them these days, even in this website...
> Yet I think majority Chinese are not extreme.
> also with the growth of China economy and military, people are more confident, normal and more treasure their life. Not like the guys listed above to threaten using military for suicide conflict..
> I think with growth of VN`s economy, people will also more confident and normal..



No,the extreme guys of us do not know how to speak English.So,they can't talk in foreign BBS.
But,that's true :with the growth of China economy and military, people are more confident, normal and more treasure their life.
I was the extreme guys in the past 
I would like to see more about foreigner's view.
It is interesting.


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## Viet

Andy Lan said:


> No,the extreme guys of us do not know how to speak English.So,they can't talk in foreign BBS.
> But,that's true :with the growth of China economy and military, people are more confident, normal and more treasure their life.
> *I was the extreme guys in the past *
> I would like to see more about foreigner's view.
> It is interesting.


just curious: how extreme? and what thing changed your opinion? are you now liberal or what?


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## Andy Lan

It looks like from Taiping Huanyuji （太平寰宇记）
the begining looks like the same,but the end is different from our books.
Can you post the end from your books?
后汉书‧马援列传 --明年正月,斩征侧、征贰,传首洛阳 write on the paper.


Viet said:


> just curious: how extreme? and what thing changed your opinion? are you now liberal or what?



liberal...NO.
《The Crowd》(Gustave Le Bon) 
It said that the crowd is mad no matter consist of science or farmer.There are many reasons in it.You can read it I think it is interesting.
I want everybody know I know everything,I am the best debater.like a baby want to tell adult I'm grow up not a bb any more.
Now I prefer to talk not to win.That's my extreme.
As hans said:
with the growth of China economy and military, people are more confident, normal and more treasure their life.the more you know,the more I consider my ignorance.
I'm a Chinese face to expensive house.But I will get it if I work hard--No pain no gain.


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## EastSea

hans said:


> I pity you, guys...
> fulfilled with fear to China yet so eager to challenge China.
> Afraid of being invaded by China, yet so eager to invade laos and Comb...
> This kind of strange behavior is something ridiculous....
> That is why VN people suffer so much...



Don't bully us, uneducated boy.

dirty chinese aggressors invaded in to Viet land in the past and recently and killed vietnamese.

why to day chinese is crying that Japanese massacred chinese in Nan Jing like animal ?


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## Grand Historian

Yawn,more Vietnamese who can't read classical Chinese and claim they understand it better than Chinese.

They cry "dirty Chinese aggressor" when Vietnamese were the ones raiding Chinese provinces therefore provoking a invasion.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> that is your view, not mine.
> 
> and yes, ancient china ended with the downfall of the ming dysnasty. and of course there was no a country called china between the collapse of the ming and qing. congrat to your new view on history.
> 
> china has little link with ancient china.



The reality is that Vietnam has little to do with the Baiyue group, while the modern China is still a descendant of the ancient China.

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## dichoi

The Trưng Sisters are highly revered in Vietnam, as they led the first resistance movement against the occupying Chinese after 247 years of domination. Many temples are dedicated to them, and a yearly holiday, occurring in February, to commemorate their deaths is observed by many Vietnamese. A district in Hanoi called the Hai Ba Trung Distric is named after them. In addition, numerous large streets in major cities and many schools are named after them.

Even though the Trưng Sisters' revolt against the Chinese was almost 2,000 years ago, its legacy in Vietnam remains. The two sisters are considered to be a national symbol in Vietnam. They represent Vietnam's independence. They are often depicted as two women riding two giant war elephants. Many a times, they are seen leading their followers into battle against the Chinese. The Trưng sisters were more than two sisters that gave their life up for their country, they are powerful symbols of Vietnamese resistance and freedom.

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## Huaren

It would be respectable if viet struggle against china was all about "resistance and freedom", unfortunately that was not always the case, In the early age viets were seen as traitor because they have repeatedly sworn fealty to china and yet they would break their word at the next oppertunity.

viets have always seen themselves as victims but beside the early revolts most of the conflicts in later era with china were in fact result of regional political balance and aggressions of viets against its neighbours (sometimes even against China), for millenia China has followed the foreign policy of balancing neigbouring powers to maintain border stability and security (kinda like britisch policy for european continent during the middle age). And China has used the same tactic on both in the northern and southern side of border, which was meant to prevent balance shifting, for example if certain mongolian tribe tried to attack a neigbouring tribe China would support the victim and / or punish the aggressor directly, and in the south from chinese perspective is was almost always viets who would make trouble for its neighbours, and China was forced to intervent and punish viets repeatedly.

This tactic of China has failed from time to time in the north mainly because of huge empty steppe region, the great mobility and strong riders of nomadic people, but in the south the balance was more or less maintained. However viets never learnt their "lessons" and were never content with their position, as it appear they are dreaming of Mekong expansion and beyond even up to this day. Who knows if it werent for the China viets might have been able to create a big empire out of Indochina and beyond long time ago.


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## xesy

Huaren said:


> It would be respectable if viet struggle against china was all about "resistance and freedom", unfortunately that was not always the case, In the early age viets were seen as traitor because they have repeatedly sworn fealty to china and yet they would break their word at the next oppertunity.
> 
> viets have always seen themselves as victims but beside the early revolts most of the conflicts in later era with china were in fact result of regional political balance and aggressions of viets against its neighbours (sometimes even against China), for millenia China has followed the foreign policy of balancing neigbouring powers to maintain border stability and security (kinda like britisch policy for european continent during the middle age). And China has used the same tactic on both in the northern and southern side of border, which was meant to prevent balance shifting, for example if certain mongolian tribe tried to attack a neigbouring tribe China would support the victim and / or punish the aggressor directly, and in the south from chinese perspective is was almost always viets who would make trouble for its neighbours, and China was forced to intervent and punish viets repeatedly.
> 
> This tactic of China has failed from time to time in the north mainly because of huge empty steppe region, the great mobility and strong riders of nomadic people, but in the south the balance was more or less maintained. However viets never learnt their "lessons" and were never content with their position, as it appear they are dreaming of Mekong expansion and beyond even up to this day. Who knows if it werent for the China viets might have been able to create a big empire out of Indochina and beyond long time ago.


Nah, it was never about resistance and freedom, but rather about independence. Promises and agreement was made by VNese kings and officals, who often got executed or fled first when the fight started. Those who led the resistance forces was often nobles or even peasants who got fed up with Chinese oppression. 

From VN perspective, China was always the invader, for 1 simple reason: its geography. Being in the center, North of China is the vast grassland and iceland with little agriculture value (ancient China was an agriculture civilization) as well as fierce warrior races which were never conquered; East of China is the endless ocean, and an island nation which China was constantly harrassed by; West of China is a desert. That led to the final and absolute conclusion that the only way for ancient China to expand is the South. And I have watch enough Chinese movies to know that most ancient Chinese emperors were obsessed with the idea of him being able to expand the map of the empire.

VN might have been a vassal state of ancient China, have paid annual tributes for China, but if Chinese army came, we would stand up and fight.


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## Huaren

xesy said:


> Nah, it was never about resistance and freedom, but rather about independence. Promises and agreement was made by VNese kings and officals, who often got executed or fled first when the fight started. Those who led the resistance forces was often nobles or even peasants who got fed up with Chinese oppression.
> 
> From VN perspective, China was always the invader, for 1 simple reason: its geography. Being in the center, North of China is the vast grassland and iceland with little agriculture value (ancient China was an agriculture civilization) as well as fierce warrior races which were never conquered; East of China is the endless ocean, and an island nation which China was constantly harrassed by; West of China is a desert. That led to the final and absolute conclusion that the only way for ancient China to expand is the South. And I have watch enough Chinese movies to know that most ancient Chinese emperors were obsessed with the idea of him being able to expand the map of the empire.
> 
> VN might have been a vassal state of ancient China, have paid annual tributes for China, but if Chinese army came, we would stand up and fight.



This might from viet perspective but the south was rarely the center of chinese focus, ever since the Han dynasty Chinese expansion has already reached the southern sea, right from the jungles up to the southwestern mountain regions close to todays borders, it have stayed mostly the same ever since then, and that was two millienium ago, and ever since then chinese always focused attension to the north and to lesser extend the west, and expansions were being made in those direction thoughout the ages, if the northern nomadic people were seen as threat, the southern viets would have been considered as annoyance and distraction


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## xesy

Huaren said:


> This might from viet perspective but the south was rarely the center of chinese focus, ever since the Han dynasty Chinese expansion has already reached the southern sea, right from the jungles up to the southwestern mountain regions close to todays borders, it have stayed mostly the same ever since then, and that was two millienium ago, and ever since then chinese always focused attension to the north and to lesser extend the west, and expansions were being made in those direction thoughout the ages, if the northern nomadic people were seen as threat, the southern viets would have been considered as annoyance and distraction


You missed "a potential threat". Otherwise China would have let VN had its way with the whole Indochina region.


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## Huaren

xesy said:


> You missed "a potential threat". Otherwise China would have let VN had its way with the whole Indochina region.



Not quite "a potential threat" for China but for its neighbours, for China there is a sense of obligation to maintain order for tributary states in the region, and viets were quite the trouble maker according to the people like those of Cham or Malacca, also there were internal uprising within viets where the rightful ruler got deposed without the acknowledgement of China, in such cases China would have the obligation to step in, but its still far from being "a potential threat", maybe "a real annoyance" would be more accurate.


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## terranMarine

VN could never be a threat to China, not in a million years.

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## 楚鮑玉

As translated:

We are fighting along side of our Queen for the rights of the people of Southern Han, for our honor, and independent. The decisions and actions we undertake is for the cause at hand, in which we believe to be righteous. What others may write of us, good or bad, let history be the judge of it. Thus, will only come to light after 100 years of our death. Renyin Spring 18th year of Jianwu.

Zheng Ce and Zheng Er and their army all died honorably. God bless their souls. Don't blame Ma Yuan. He was only following orders.


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## bolo

terranMarine said:


> VN could never be a threat to China, not in a million years.



Vietnam threat.
Gay pride parades in Vietnam | Society | Thanh Nien Daily

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP_1Zz8gcAA


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## NiceGuy

Andy Lan said:


> As hans said:
> with the growth of China economy and military, people are more confident, normal and more treasure their life.the more you know,the more I consider my ignorance.
> I'm a Chinese face to expensive house.But I will get it if I work hard--No pain no gain.


Your growth depend on US-EU who buy a lot of ur products, if they stop buying, then ur economy will collapse.


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## terranMarine

But are they stop buying it? 
Just as Sino-Japanese trade that keeps on growing, these apes are such a simpleton


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## Rechoice

terranMarine said:


> VN could never be a threat to China, not in a million years.



Only chinese could threat China, Rising and falling is fate of all nation, China is not except case.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> Only chinese could threat China, Rising and falling is fate of all nation, China is not except case.



China has declined several times in the history, and why didn't you claim the South China?

The answer is because your are always too weak.


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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China has declined several times in the history, and why didn't you claim the South China?
> 
> The answer is because your are always too weak.



Viet didn't clamed back, becouse Wo Yue, Min Yue, Nan Yue were fully sinezed. We have nothing t do with them now.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> Viet didn't clamed back, becouse Wo Yue, Min Yue, Nan Yue were fully sinezed. We have nothing t do with them now.



You have ambition, we never trust you.

Even Thailand is more pro-West, but we still don't have as much of conflict with them, unlike with your country.

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## NiceGuy

Rent said:


> There are many partitions out there already in place to boycott china's imports. Below is one. I could not post links so you would have to cut and paste.
> 
> Boycott imports Made in China | Petition2Congress
> 
> Other sites boycotting chinese goods. You may read here.
> 
> Boycott Made-in-China — Students for a Free Tibet
> 
> The petition below is closed and submitted worldwide to boycott stuff made in china. But if you google it, there are thousand more partitions.
> 
> Petition | BOYCOTT PRODUCTS MADE IN CHINA | Change.org


Only the boss in Wall st can decide to Boycott China product in EU-US or not. U should know who control EU-US now.

And bcz China still dare not cross the red line (taking back TW like Russia take Crime), so, they still consider China as a good slave, no need to punish now.

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## sicsheep

sicsheep said:


> All u can do now is just keep licking US-EU hard to get some cheap $$, so your kids can avoid starving to death in trash bin again in this winter
> Vietnam infant mortality rate 19.61/1000.
> China infant mortality rate 15.20/1000
> looks like your trash bin already full of dead kids. , shit maybe one day you will wipe yourself out and save us the trouble lol





NiceGuy said:


> Sorry, in fact, no VN starving to death in trash bin like in China coz we have enough rice, fish, warm shelter for them even we dont lick US-EU so hard like China.



LOL damn Vietnamese feed their infant rice and fish, no wonder they all end up in da trash bin. 
Please don't lick japan , Russia so hard. offering your military base even when Russia didn't ask, that is some world stage action right there.


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## NiceGuy

sicsheep said:


> LOL damn Vietnamese feed their infant rice and fish, no wonder they all end up in da trash bin.
> Please don't lick japan , Russia so hard. offering your military base even when Russia didn't ask, that is some world stage action right there.


Russia is our big bro, its no shame for small VN to offer Russia a military base in Cam Ranh. And we dont lick JP, we collaborate to gain a mutual benefit, JP dont take or control any piece of our Land like US control TW from Okinawa.

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## tonyget

NiceGuy said:


> Russia is our big bro, its no shame for small VN to offer Russia a military base in Cam Ranh.




The Soviet didn't transfer any military tech to you, they did gave China though.


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## sicsheep

NiceGuy said:


> Russia is our big bro, its no shame for small VN to offer Russia a military base in Cam Ranh. And we dont lick JP, we collaborate to gain a mutual benefit, JP dont take or control any piece of our Land like US control TW from Okinawa.



licking your big bro is even more wrong, look, why dont you just vote to be next part of Russia, like Crimea, solve your problem that way, of course that is if Russia wants you. 

US dont control TW like we control Hochiminh City from Kunming military region.


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## EastSea

sicsheep said:


> licking your big bro is even more wrong, look, why dont you just vote to be next part of Russia, like Crimea, solve your problem that way, of course that is if Russia wants you.
> 
> US dont control TW like we control Hochiminh City from Kunming military region.





an incident in April 2001, US Navy EP-3 spy plane is around off Hainan to control you.


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## Viet

Andy Lan said:


> liberal...NO.
> 《The Crowd》(Gustave Le Bon)
> It said that the crowd is mad no matter consist of science or farmer.There are many reasons in it.You can read it I think it is interesting.
> I want everybody know I know everything,*I am the best debater*.like a baby want to tell adult I'm grow up not a bb any more.
> Now I prefer to talk not to win.That's my extreme.
> As hans said:
> with the growth of China economy and military, people are more confident, normal and more treasure their life.the more you know,the more I consider my ignorance.
> I'm a Chinese face to expensive house.But I will get it if I work hard--No pain no gain.


you want to debate seriously? ok, a couple of questions:

- what do you think of the 9-line line?
- do you think China needs to enforce the claims by violence or even war?
- will your country become democratic in the future?
- which 3 countries you like and dislike most?
- which countries you like to visit for holidays?
- what do you think about the vietnamese people?
- do you think it is necessary going to war against Vietnam, Japan and Philippines to recover the "lost" islands?


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## Andy Lan

Viet said:


> you want to debate seriously? ok, a couple of questions:
> 
> - what do you think of the 9-line line?
> - do you think China needs to enforce the claims by violence or even war?
> - will your country become democratic in the future?
> - which 3 countries you like and dislike most?
> - which countries you like to visit for holidays?
> - what do you think about the vietnamese people?
> - do you think it is necessary going to war against Vietnam, Japan and Philippines to recover the "lost" islands?


hahahaha,sorry for my poor English.It's a mistake.But I am not a *debater* any more.
I said I was extremely guy(debater) in the past ,now?I would like to talk,and be a listener.
Nowadays,no one wants war.maybe development will against peace.I'm not sure.
And we are rabbit,we are afraid of war...
*Premier Zhou Enlai* said:Lagging behindleavesone vulnerable to attacks.
The economic base determines superstructure(democracy is the top of it,I think.)
VN and CN have a long way to go.
Sorry for my poor English again.


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## NiceGuy

tonyget said:


> The Soviet didn't transfer any military tech to you, they did gave China though.


So who gave VN Shaddock missile tech ?? Who sell Kilos-Su 30 on Credit to VN ??



sicsheep said:


> licking your big bro is even more wrong, look, why dont you just vote to be next part of Russia, like Crimea, solve your problem that way, of course that is if Russia wants you.
> 
> US dont control TW like we control Hochiminh City from Kunming military region.


Try to control your trash bin to make sure no more Chinese kids will starve to death inside this winter first


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## tonyget

NiceGuy said:


> So who gave VN Shaddock missile tech ?? Who sell Kilos-Su 30 on Credit to VN ??



Can you make Shaddock missile/Kilos/Su 30 ?


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## Solomon2

*Dispatches*
*Michael J. Totten*

*The Ghosts of Communism in Asia*
15 September 2014






I awoke from a fitful jet-lagged sleep in Hanoi to the sound of communist propaganda being broadcast outside on a city-wide sound system. It began with patriotic Vietnamese music, which I first thought an annoying neighbor must be playing on a boom box or car stereo, but then the Ant Queen came onto the air.

She obviously worked for the government. Nobody needed to tell me that. She sounded too official to be anything but the spokesperson for the ruler of an ant hill barking orders at worker drones. This was no radio station DJ, and anyway, no radio station on earth blasts an entire city at full volume from a public address system.

I stayed in a small boutique hotel the size of a large bed-and-breakfast tucked between businesses on a main street in the Old Quarter. The sidewalk was just outside and only one story down. Judging by its volume, I could swear one of the speakers was right outside my window.

I rose, bleary-eyed, and when I yanked back the curtain, sure enough, a megaphone wired into a rat’s nest of electrical wires was indeed less than three feet from the glass and pointing at the street and sidewalk below.






Grumbling, I returned to bed. But the Ant Queen wouldn’t shut up. When I emerged from the shower, she was still haranguing the city. When I finished my breakfast downstairs she was _still_ at it.

“What on earth is going on outside?” I said to the woman at the front desk.

“It’s the morning news from the government,” she said. She looked a little embarrassed. “I know it’s loud. Sorry.” She actually cringed when she said the word _sorry_. She must have to explain this to foreign visitors constantly.

“Oh, that’s just propaganda,” another Vietnamese person said dismissively when I later asked for a second opinion. I’m keeping his name out of this so he won’t get in trouble.

“Does anyone listen to it?” I said.

“It’s impossible not to,” he said and laughed, “because it’s so loud.”

I found the whole thing amusing initially. What an anachronism! I encountered what I would have expected in a place like Moscow circa 1956, and I found it in tropical Southeast Asia in the year 2014.

Somebody recorded one of these state public addresses on a video camera and uploaded it to YouTube. The clip is eight years old, but the phenomenon he recorded is still going strong.

Obviously it’s a leftover from the totalitarian era. I flew to Hanoi from Seattle via Taipei, and I know without even checking that nothing remotely like this exists in Taiwan even though I never made it out of the airport. Nor does anything like it exist in the Philippines. Or South Korea. Or Thailand. Certainly not in Japan.

But a touch of North Korea remains behind in Hanoi.

Vietnam is emphatically not regulated or regimented like its unspeakable neighbor far to the north. For the most part, it looks and feels like a freewheeling place, a country I could live in without much stress at all as long as I stayed out of politics. But its totalitarian past hasn’t entirely faded. No democratic state in the world would inflict noise pollution like this on its citizens. Only an unelected regime that lords it over everyone else from on high would even think of behaving this way in the 21st century.

Vietnam’s one-party state, despite being much more relaxed than it used to be, still spends hours each day broadcasting bullshit into everyone’s ears whether they like it or not. I couldn’t help laughing at the absurdity.

Then it hit me: _This is going to wake me up in the morning every single day that I’m here_.

“What exactly,” I said to the lady at the hotel’s front desk, “is the woman on that loudspeaker talking about?”

She paused and listened. “She’s telling us about a Communist Party meeting in the ward yesterday.”

The last vestiges of economic communism appear to have been vaporized. Hanoi looks and feels more like a capitalist Wild West than the actual West does these days. But some habits die harder than others.

I never asked anyone the name of the woman who reads “the news” at seven o’clock in the morning to a city that’s spectacularly uninterested in listening to it. Her name doesn’t matter. To me she is and always will be the Ant Queen.

_Rice production is up 200 percent!_

She isn’t saying anything quite that ludicrous now, but I’ll bet she was back in 1973 when ragged civilians waited in lines on those very same streets to exchange government coupons for meager handfuls of food. Vietnam suffered terrible shortages when its economy was still Marxist-Leninist, but once that system was scrapped and producers were “allowed” to profit from their work on the market, Vietnam became one of the world’s largest exporters of rice.

I only asked a handful of people if they enjoyed getting “news” from the state every morning and then again at the end of the work day, but surveying a handful was enough. Everyone hates it. Is there any conceivable reason why they would not?

Even some government officials think it’s ridiculous.

“For people who live near the speakers, it’s a disaster,” Pham Van Hien said to the _LA Times_ five years ago. “It hurts their ears.” Hien at the time was the chairman of one of Hanoi’s so-called government “communes,” and he tried to convince the party to shut off its public address system and put its broadcasts on the Internet where residents could listen to them voluntarily, but his initiative obviously didn’t work out.

Vietnam’s nationwide English-language newspaper is, for the most part, a written version of the Ant Queen for foreigners. The vast majority of its articles are tedious descriptions in crushing detail of things government officials did and said the previous day.

Here’s an example. “President Truong Tan Sang wrapped up a two-day tour of the central province of Quang Tri yesterday, visiting Con Co island district and inspecting the new-style rural area building programme in Vinh Linh District's Vinh Thach Commune… Sang hailed the locality's efforts to implement the new-style rural area building programme. The commune fulfilled 15 of the 19 criteria and aims to achieve the rest by the end of this year.”

Almost the _entire_ paper is like that. You’ll learn as much about the country reading “news” of that sort as you would if you stayed in your hotel room and napped.

I brought with me the electronic version of Theodore Dalrymple’s book _The Wilder Shores of Marx_. He visited Vietnam just after the Berlin Wall fell when the country was only beginning to reform its way out of communist economics, and he had a similar experience in one of Saigon’s bookstores.

I picked up a little volume of the recent speeches of Nguyen Van Linh, General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Part of Vietnam (ie, the Pope). It was called _Vietnam: Urgent Problems_. Following the title page was a photograph of the General Secretary: I knew at once I was not in for an exciting read. The first paragraph was unencouraging.

“After several days of diligent and active work with a high sense of responsibility to the Party and people, today the 6th Congress of the Communist Party of Vietnam has come to fruition.”

Although the book was only 147 pages long, I could not help but recall Lord MaCauley’s review of a two-volume biography of Lord Burghley:

“Compared with the labor of reading these volumes, all other labour, the labour of thieves on the treadmill, the labour of children in the mines, the labour of slaves on the plantation, is but a pleasant recreation.”

*

Vietnam is no longer totalitarian. It’s merely authoritarian now.

The difference may seem strictly semantic, but it’s huge. Jeanne Kirkpatrick explained it in a landmark essay in _Commentary_ in 1979.

“Traditional autocrats,” she wrote, “leave in place existing allocations of wealth, power, status, and other resources which in most traditional societies favor an affluent few and maintain masses in poverty. But they worship traditional gods and observe traditional taboos. They do not disturb the habitual rhythms of work and leisure, habitual places of residence, habitual patterns of family and personal relations. Because the miseries of traditional life are familiar, they are bearable to ordinary people who, growing up in the society, learn to cope, as children born to untouchables in India acquire the skills and attitudes necessary for survival in the miserable roles they are destined to fill. Such societies create no refugees.

“Precisely the opposite is true of revolutionary Communist regimes. They create refugees by the million because they claim jurisdiction over the whole life of the society and make demands for change that so violate internalized values and habits that inhabitants flee by the tens of thousands in the remarkable expectation that their attitudes, values, and goals will ‘fit’ better in a foreign country than in their native land.”

Most Vietnamese-Americans originate in the south. They and their families moved here after the communist north overran Saigon and annexed the republic of South Vietnam in 1975.

The communists didn’t instigate the widely feared bloodbath, but they did send hundreds of thousands to re-education camps. French historian Jean-Louis Margolin published a letter about the ghastly conditions from prisoners that several dozen orally “signed.” It concluded this way:

“If it really is the case that humanity at present is recoiling from the spread of Communism, and rejecting at last the claims of the North Vietnamese Communists that their defeat of American imperialism is proof of their invincibility, then we, the prisoners of Vietnam, ask the International Red Cross, humanitarian organizations throughout the world, and all men of goodwill to send us cyanide capsules as soon as possible so that we can put an end to our suffering ourselves.”

Hundreds of thousands of south Vietnamese fled the country by boat. They didn’t care where they might end up or that they might not make it at all. All they wanted was _out_. They’d rather hurl themselves into the ocean and hope for the best than stick around and be ruled by the revolutionary new government. Cuban exiles in Florida can perhaps relate to them better than anyone else.

“Without firing a shot,” journalist David Lamb wrote in his book, _Vietnam Now_, “the communist leadership managed to achieve what a generation of war had not: the flight of discontents; more than a million Vietnamese left their homeland in three waves between 1975 and 1989. Never before in any country had so many people fled peace.”

The north had been terrorized too, as far back as 1931.

“The Party threw itself into the creation of rural ‘soviets’ in Nge Tinh and started liquidating landlords by the hundreds,” Margolin wrote in _The Black Book of Communism_, translated and published by Harvard University Press. “An article in the Viet Minh press in Hanoi on 29 August recommended that the people set up ‘traitor elimination committees; in every neighborhood and village…Vietnamese women who had married Frenchmen were also systematically slaughtered, although these actions were blamed on people who were not really members of the Viet Minh. In August and September alone the Viet Minh carried out thousands of assassinations and tens of thousands of kidnappings…These fanatics showed not only their unpitying dogmatism, but also the will toward a totalitarian classification of society that was a driving force inside the Vietnamese Communist Party.”

He estimates that 50,000 people were executed and that as many as 100,000 imprisoned. Not only did fellow communists get the axe—the _majority_ of them got the axe. “86 percent of the members of Party cells in the countryside were purged,” he wrote, “as were 95 percent of the cadres in the anti-French resistance.”

Ho Chi Minh is dead now, as are his economic ideas. Despite scrapping his system, however, the party still lionizes him for being the founding father of modern, sovereign, unified Vietnam.

They embalmed his corpse and keep it preserved under glass. Actually, the Russians did the embalming because they know how. They’re experienced. They did the same to Vladimir Lenin. Ho’s body is periodically returned to Russia for a bit of a touch-up. Former US President Bill Clinton was relieved that Ho’s remains were in Moscow for routine maintenance when he visited in 2000 so he wouldn’t have to face the awkward choice of either paying his respects at Ho’s mausoleum or offending his hosts by refusing.

That worked out for everybody, not just Bill Clinton. A visit to Ho wouldn’t have played well in the US. Scabs on old wounds would have torn open again. Refusing to visit Ho would have cheesed off the Vietnamese government, which is as friendly to the United States now as its people. Clinton was treated like a rock star in Hanoi, and, if anything, the US is even more popular today than it was fourteen years ago.

Washington and Hanoi will never forget that they were enemies once, but there’s no point in making a big public show of it now. The Vietnamese got it over a long time ago, and the country is now arguably richer and freer than Saigon was under the South Vietnamese government that Americans fought to defend from the north.

Few Americans would be offended if I visited Ho Chi Minh’s mausoleum, so I put it on my schedule, but the line was three kilometers long in the blazing tropical sunshine. His mausoleum is only open for a few hours in the morning and it’s closed on Mondays and Fridays. I have little doubt that it’s because the government _wants_ a long line. It makes Ho Chi Minh appear more popular than he actually is.

So I didn’t even try going inside. Outside was interesting enough anyway. A man named Nguyen showed me around.

In front of Ho’s mausoleum is a gigantic square that makes mere mortals like me and Nguyen appear gnat-sized. Spread out over much of that area are 360 squares of grass. “Each square represents a group of people in Vietnam,” Nguyen said.






Carrying the analogy forward, I imagined each blade of grass as an individual person. And it gave me the creeps. The entire country is represented as a blocklike structure flat on the ground at the feet of a single dear leader.

I slightly doubt today’s Vietnamese government would design a public space and monument this way. The country is still a one-party state, but it is no longer militarized, regimented, or blocklike. Like the Ant Queen, the mausoleum and its grounds are anachronistic fragments from the past.

A few hundred yards from Ho’s mausoleum is his old house, a simple wooden structure on stilts next to a pond. Across the pond is a museum, an architectural delight that seems a perfect fusion of French and Vietnamese.

Inside, below photographs of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin, Ho’s plain wooden dining room table is covered on only one end with a small bit of cloth. “Ho Chi Minh didn’t need to cover the entire table,” Nguyen said, “so he cut the tablecloth and donated the rest so a poor person could use it.”






I thought of the story in America about George Washington and the cherry tree. “I cannot tell a lie,” young George said when his father asked if he felled the tree with an axe. Maybe that story is true, but it’s probably not. It’s a cute little story for kids.

Nguyen showed me the pond behind Ho’s old house.

“Ho Chi Minh came out here every morning and fed the fish,” he said. “He clapped his hands and the fish came. If we clap our hands the fish will still come because they think Ho Chi Minh is still alive.”

He did not attempt to prove that hypothesis by clapping his hands.

The road leading up to Ho’s house is shaded by giant trees—and thank goodness for that. I was dying out there in the heat. “These trees,” Nguyen said, “don’t produce any fruit. Do you know why?”






“Because it’s too cold this far north?” I said.

Nguyen didn’t laugh. I’m not sure he realized that I was joking.

“When Ho Chi Minh planted them,” he said, “the country was only half independent. The south wasn’t yet free. So the trees survived but didn’t produce any fruit.”

These are stories for six year-olds. I doubt Nguyen believes them, but I didn’t ask. He’s an official guide. The government tells him what to say. I can at least attest to the fact that he doesn’t believe every fantastical story because at one point, when telling me about a wooden dragon at one of the local pagodas, he informed me that “dragon is not a real animal.”

*

Hoa Lo Prison, known to Americans as the Hanoi Hilton, was built by French imperialists in the 19thcentury for the warehousing of Vietnamese political prisoners. After the French finally left what they called Indochina, the communist government used it to warehouse American prisoners of war, including John McCain, who later became a US Senator and presidential candidate, and Pete Peterson, who later became a US Congressman and the first US Ambassador to Vietnam after the war.

The Vietnamese demolished most of the prison but left a piece of it intact and turned it into a museum. An office complex now rises over the rest of the site which includes one of Hanoi’s finest Western-style coffee houses.

Most of the museum is devoted to French mistreatment of Vietnamese prisoners, which makes sense since that’s what the prison was used for during most of its life. It includes statues of men with shackled ankles and men forced into slave labor.






Grim murals depict the torture of prisoners. A narrow cell block leads to an execution room complete with a guillotine. Joseph-Ignace Guillotin invented the head-chopping device in 1789 supposedly as a “humanitarian” method for killing. I suppose it was when compared with medieval era devices such as the Catherine Wheel still in use at the time which were arguably more savage even than crucifixion.






I do not believe in ghosts, detectable remnants of bad emotional energy, or anything else supernatural or paranormal, but I nevertheless felt some seriously bad juju inside Hoa Lo. Standing and walking in the very places where people were so mistreated is not a pleasant experience. These kinds of museums are important, but I nevertheless felt like it wouldn’t be entirely wrong if the Vietnamese one day decide to raze the rest of Hoa Lo and build just about anything in its place.

For the Vietnamese the museum is all about France, but I was more interested in the American experience there. The official depiction of the “Hanoi Hilton” era of that building’s history is not, shall we say, unflinchingly accurate. I saw no photographs of Americans in prison cells or any mention that they were abused in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, I saw photographs of American prisoners of war decorating a Christmas tree and playing basketball.






There’s a picture of a young John McCain being treated by a doctor. His flight suit hangs on a wall behind glass.

McCain says he was tortured in there. So does Pete Peterson, our former ambassador. Surely others were too. Yet there’s no mention of it anywhere in that building.

We don’t have to hold it against Vietnam that this happened. McCain and Peterson don’t. They appear to have forgiven their former captors and torturers as much as human beings can forgive such a thing, and they both consider themselves friends of Vietnam now. The Vietnamese, for their part, seek a formal alliance with the United States, and for whatever it’s worth I think they should get it. The Vietnamese won’t torture an American captive ever again, nor will Washington ever again bomb Hanoi.

But the American section of that museum, I have to say, is a farce. Perhaps an understandable one—admitting to and publicly displaying one’s past bad behavior can be uncomfortable—but it’s a farce all the same.

So is Vietnam’s Museum of Revolution, though it’s nowhere near as bad as it could have been.

Of course it’s one-sided, and its descriptions use standard-issue communist boilerplate. Still, its biases cast a revealing light onto the communist north’s view of the world, if not today then at least during the 1960s and 70s.

The southern Vietnamese at that time are dismissed entirely as “puppets,” as if they had no will of their own, as if the only reason they were anti-communist is because the United States persuaded or forced them to be.

Since the United States and Vietnam are at least on friendly terms if not quite allies just yet, since our people and governments both get along without any hiccups, and since the north and the south are unified and more or less at peace with each other, maybe it’s time to jettison that kind of language.






That language is not even accurate. An honest museum might feature on its walls a poem by Trinh Cong Son, which includes the following all-too-true lines. “Open your eyes and turn over the enemy corpses. There are Vietnamese faces upon them.”

The majority of human beings everywhere in the world who found themselves under communist rule ended up, to one extent or another, as anti-communists. Otherwise, communism would still be a viable force. Communist parties would win elections. Communists would never have needed to round up so many political prisoners and send to them to gulags or re-education camps. Communist regimes would never have created so many millions of refugees or felt the need to murder a combined total of 100 million people.

But the word _communist_ means different things in the United States and in Hanoi. The Communist Party is still in power yet Vietnam is a hypercapitalist wonderland. While most of us equate communism with totalitarian economics and government, in Vietnam it also has a nationalist dimension.

They’ll tell you that if you ask them about it, and their definition made a little more sense when I saw an old ration book from the 1970s behind glass. That book, the description said, was from “the subsidy period.” I think of the 1970s as the _communist_ period, but the Communist Party defines it as the_subsidy_ period.

“Vietnam was never all that ideologically communist,” said Pete Peterson, our former ambassador and Hanoi Hilton survivor when I called him at his home in Melbourne, Australia. “It was always more socialist and nationalist. I told them they should stop calling themselves the Communist Party, but I didn’t get anywhere with it. Everybody pays for everything over there, including health care. The government hardly provides anything. Sweden is more socialist than Vietnam.”

That sounds about right. Whether or not he was right about Vietnam’s communists in the past, I know he is right about them today. Back during the “subsidy period,” people used to queue up for handfuls of rice on the same streets where they can now buy smart phones and iPads. Communism, Marxist economics, subsidies, or whatever we want to call it only lasted from north to south from 1975 to 1989 before if was junked.






The totalitarian system of political control has likewise eased up. Facebook and Twitter used to be banned, but they’re not anymore. Vietnamese were once prohibited from even _speaking_ to foreigners, but that hasn’t been the case for a long time. _The Lives of Others_, one of the best anti-communist films ever made, played in movie theaters in Hanoi while I was there. I could hardly believe it, and yet there it was.

The phrase “regime-change” has been bandied about in the West for some time now and generally refers to the overthrow of a government by external forces, such as the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq in 2003. It can also, of course, refer to the kind of revolution from below that we saw in Tunisia in 2011 and in Eastern Europe when the Berlin Wall fell.

But there really is a third type of regime-change, and we’ve seen it in Vietnam (as well as in China). The same party, the Communist Party, has been in power for decades, but the party, the regime, has dramatically _changed_. That change came not from outside the country or from inside and below but from within the regime and the party itself.

The Ant Queen still wakes everyone up in the morning and one could argue that the museums themselves belong in a museum, but these relics of a bygone era stand out so starkly because they’re at odds with everyone and everything else.

Voluntary regime-change isn’t common in history, but it would be wrong to say it’s unheard of.

*Post-script: *If you enjoyed reading this dispatch, please consider contributing with a donation. Many thanks in advance!

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## sicsheep

NiceGuy said:


> So who gave VN Shaddock missile tech ?? Who sell Kilos-Su 30 on Credit to VN ??
> 
> 
> Try to control your trash bin to make sure no more Chinese kids will starve to death inside this winter first



as long as you have more dead kids in your trash bin with fish stink, we have no need to worry.


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## NiceGuy

tonyget said:


> Can you make Shaddock missile/Kilos/Su 30 ?


Russia stop producing Shaddock for long time , we can make all part of it (maybe except the engine) now. 

Kilos, Su 30 buy on credit, and we can exchange with rice, fish, shoes, clothes, thats so good already.


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## NiceGuy

Solomon2 said:


> *Dispatches*
> *Michael J. Totten*
> 
> *The Ghosts of Communism in Asia*
> 15 September 2014
> View attachment 56381
> 
> 
> I awoke from a fitful jet-lagged sleep in Hanoi to the sound of communist propaganda being broadcast outside on a city-wide sound system. It began with patriotic Vietnamese music, which I first thought an annoying neighbor must be playing on a boom box or car stereo, but then the Ant Queen came onto the air.
> !


One rule in VN: when u defeat the enemy, then u will be the King. The communist defeated France-US-China, and continue to kick a huge China forces out of the conflict zone in the last conflict, then the communist will continue to be the King. Thats it


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## Solomon2

NiceGuy said:


> One rule in VN: when u defeat the enemy, then u will be the King. The communist defeated France-US-China, and continue to kick a huge China forces out of the conflict zone in the last conflict, then the communist will continue to be the King. Thats it


You forgot to mention Vietnam's key role in defeating the Khmer Rouges. Thats it.

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## Grand Historian

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China has declined several times in the history, and why didn't you claim the South China?
> 
> The answer is because your are always too weak.


The Ly dynasty took 42 days to siege one city ie Yongzhou showing how terrible they are at sieges ie 80,000 Vietnamese vs 2,800 Chinese

They love to blame Chinese for invading Vietnam when Vietnamese were the ones provoking the invasions.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Grand Historian said:


> The Ly dynasty took 42 days to siege one city ie Yongzhou showing how terrible they are at sieges ie 80,000 Vietnamese vs 2,800 Chinese
> 
> They love to blame Chinese for invading Vietnam when Vietnamese were the ones provoking the invasions.



Their appetite is absolutely insatiable, the first step is annex Indochina, then they will start to think to invade China.

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## Rent

I would like to hear more detail on this siege. Can you direct me to the source? Much appreciated .


Grand Historian said:


> The Ly dynasty took 42 days to siege one city ie Yongzhou showing how terrible they are at sieges ie 80,000 Vietnamese vs 2,800 Chinese
> 
> They love to blame Chinese for invading Vietnam when Vietnamese were the ones provoking the invasions.


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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I would like to hear more detail on this siege. Can you direct me to the source? Much appreciated .


宋史/卷446/列傳第205/忠義一/蘇緘

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> The Ly dynasty took 42 days to siege one city ie Yongzhou showing how terrible they are at sieges ie 80,000 Vietnamese vs 2,800 Chinese
> 
> They love to blame Chinese for invading Vietnam when Vietnamese were the ones provoking the invasions.



In 1075 Wang Anshi, the prime minister, told the Song Dynasty emperor that Đại Việt was being destroyed by Champa, with less than ten thousand soldiers surviving, hence it would be a good occasion to annex Đại Việt. The Song emperor mobilized troops and passed decrees to forbid all the provinces to trade with Đại Việt. 

was there the mobilization only 2,800 chinese ? 

There was defend action, like we did against Khmer Rouge puppet of China recently.

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## Rent

May you provide the actual source please. I would like to take a look at it.


楚鮑玉 said:


> As translated:
> 
> We are fighting along side of our Queen for the rights of the people of Southern Han, for our honor, and independent. The decisions and actions we undertake is for the cause at hand, in which we believe to be righteous. What others may write of us, good or bad, let history be the judge of it. Thus, will only come to light after 100 years of our death. Renyin Spring 18th year of Jianwu.
> 
> Zheng Ce and Zheng Er and their army all died honorably. God bless their souls. Don't blame Ma Yuan. He was only following orders.


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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> In 1075 Wang Anshi, the prime minister, told the Song Dynasty emperor that Đại Việt was being destroyed by Champa, with less than ten thousand soldiers surviving, hence it would be a good occasion to annex Đại Việt. The Song emperor mobilized troops and passed decrees to forbid all the provinces to trade with Đại Việt.
> 
> was there the mobilization only 2,800 chinese ?
> 
> There was defend action, like we did against Khmer Rouge puppet of China recently.


You do realize that Wang Anshi only advocated for a Song invasion when the Ly dynasty forcibly took control of Qinzhou and Lianzhou which breached Song borders as well making excuses that the Ly were apprehending a criminal.

Before this Wang Anshi didn't want the Nong Zhigao rebellion to play out again so he negotiated with the Zhuang so they became Song militia,while Than Thieu Thai constantly raided Guangnan which understandably the Song reinforced the area.

There was only a 2,800 garrison force in Yongzhou yet it took the Vietnamese force 42 days to conquer it,you also fail to mention the Vietnamese cruelty ie the massacre of its inhabitants.

The Japanese attempted to launch a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor yet no one today argues for its legitimacy,the Ly dynasty attempted to provoke the Song and that resulted in an Song invasion in which half of the troops died of disease not Vietnamese military superiority and which resulted in a Song victory.

Vietnamese sure love to lie that China's always the aggressor however multiple Chinese invasions have shown that Vietnamese states attempted to seize Chinese territory,resources and manpower.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Grand Historian said:


> You do realize that Wang Anshi only advocated for a Song invasion when the Ly dynasty forcibly took control of Qinzhou and Lianzhou which breached Song borders as well making excuses that the Ly were apprehending a criminal.
> 
> Before this Wang Anshi didn't want the Nong Zhigao rebellion to play out again so he negotiated with the Zhuang so they became Song militia,while Than Thieu Thai constantly raided Guangnan which understandably the Song reinforced the area.
> 
> There was only a 2,800 garrison force in Yongzhou yet it took the Vietnamese force 42 days to conquer it,you also fail to mention the Vietnamese cruelty ie the massacre of its inhabitants.
> 
> The Japanese attempted to launch a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor yet no one today argues for its legitimacy,the Ly dynasty attempted to provoke the Song and that resulted in an Song invasion in which half of the troops died of disease not Vietnamese military superiority and which resulted in a Song victory.
> 
> Vietnamese sure love to lie that China's always the aggressor however multiple Chinese invasions have shown that Vietnamese states attempted to seize Chinese territory,resources and manpower.



It is quite normal since the Viet ultranationalists always consider the South China as their lost land.

They may keep denying it verbally, but their behavior speaks otherwise.

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## Grand Historian

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is quite normal since the Viet ultranationalists always consider the South China as their lost land.
> 
> They may keep denying its verbally, but their behavior speaks otherwise.


Vietnamese logic: Vietnamese invasions of Cham,Tai,Khmer,Chinese etcs are legitimate,whenever someone else invades Vietnam they go ballistic. 

It doesn't matter that Vietnamese covet southern China, they never have and never will have the power to hold onto it.

Ly Nhan Tong,Ho Quy Ly and Nguyen Hue all tried and failed none of them had the military strength to successfully invade the Song,Ming or Qing.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Grand Historian said:


> Vietnamese logic: Vietnamese invasions of Cham,Tai,Khmer,Chinese etcs are legitimate,whenever someone else invades Vietnam they go ballistic.
> 
> It doesn't matter that Vietnamese covet southern China, they never have and never will have the power to hold onto it.
> 
> Ly Nhan Tong,Ho Quy Ly and Nguyen Hue all tried and failed none of them had the military strength to successfully invade the Song,Ming or Qing.



But they can keep dreaming, and we should let them to keep the dream.

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## Rent

It is good to see the views of both sides.


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is quite normal since the Viet ultranationalists always consider the South China as their lost land.
> 
> They may keep denying it verbally, but their behavior speaks otherwise.


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## Rent

It seems like Vietnamese History Forum is moving on smoothly. We have covered some main events here from the creation myths to Hung King, to The Trung Sisters and now Ly Dynasty. 

Arguments are healthy as it creates a better understanding for both sides.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> It seems like Vietnamese History Forum is moving on smoothly. We have covered some main events here from the creation myths to Hung King, to The Trung Sisters and now Ly Dynasty.
> 
> Arguments are healthy as it creates a better understanding for both sides.


Except the Hung Kings never existed its rooted in myth not history.

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## Rent

With all due respect, ancient histories are filled with myths. I am just being polite by not pointing them all out. Chinese imperial historical documents and philosophical canons such as 禮記, 太史公書, 書經 and 呂氏春秋 all contain myths.

You of all people should know better.

Please respect ours as we have respected yours. Debate but please don't smear.


Grand Historian said:


> Except the Hung Kings never existed its rooted in myth not history.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> With all due respect, ancient histories are filled with myths. I am just being polite by not pointing them all out. Chinese imperial historical documents and philosophical canons such as 禮記, 太史公書, 書經 and 呂氏春秋 all contain myths.
> 
> You of all people should know better.
> 
> Please respect ours as we have respected yours. Debate but please don't smear.


I already stated that Chinese myths don't exist,how can I take Vietnamese member seriously if they insist on using mythology to back up their statements.

How is asking for proof smearing?


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## xesy

Solomon2 said:


> *Dispatches*
> *Michael J. Totten*
> 
> *The Ghosts of Communism in Asia*
> 15 September 2014
> View attachment 56381
> 
> 
> I awoke from a fitful jet-lagged sleep in Hanoi to the sound of communist propaganda being broadcast outside on a city-wide sound system. It began with patriotic Vietnamese music, which I first thought an annoying neighbor must be playing on a boom box or car stereo, but then the Ant Queen came onto the air.
> 
> She obviously worked for the government. Nobody needed to tell me that. She sounded too official to be anything but the spokesperson for the ruler of an ant hill barking orders at worker drones. This was no radio station DJ, and anyway, no radio station on earth blasts an entire city at full volume from a public address system.
> 
> I stayed in a small boutique hotel the size of a large bed-and-breakfast tucked between businesses on a main street in the Old Quarter. The sidewalk was just outside and only one story down. Judging by its volume, I could swear one of the speakers was right outside my window.
> 
> I rose, bleary-eyed, and when I yanked back the curtain, sure enough, a megaphone wired into a rat’s nest of electrical wires was indeed less than three feet from the glass and pointing at the street and sidewalk below.
> 
> View attachment 56382
> 
> 
> Grumbling, I returned to bed. But the Ant Queen wouldn’t shut up. When I emerged from the shower, she was still haranguing the city. When I finished my breakfast downstairs she was _still_ at it.
> 
> “What on earth is going on outside?” I said to the woman at the front desk.
> 
> “It’s the morning news from the government,” she said. She looked a little embarrassed. “I know it’s loud. Sorry.” She actually cringed when she said the word _sorry_. She must have to explain this to foreign visitors constantly.
> 
> “Oh, that’s just propaganda,” another Vietnamese person said dismissively when I later asked for a second opinion. I’m keeping his name out of this so he won’t get in trouble.
> 
> “Does anyone listen to it?” I said.
> 
> “It’s impossible not to,” he said and laughed, “because it’s so loud.”
> 
> I found the whole thing amusing initially. What an anachronism! I encountered what I would have expected in a place like Moscow circa 1956, and I found it in tropical Southeast Asia in the year 2014.
> 
> Somebody recorded one of these state public addresses on a video camera and uploaded it to YouTube. The clip is eight years old, but the phenomenon he recorded is still going strong.
> 
> Obviously it’s a leftover from the totalitarian era. I flew to Hanoi from Seattle via Taipei, and I know without even checking that nothing remotely like this exists in Taiwan even though I never made it out of the airport. Nor does anything like it exist in the Philippines. Or South Korea. Or Thailand. Certainly not in Japan.
> 
> But a touch of North Korea remains behind in Hanoi.
> 
> Vietnam is emphatically not regulated or regimented like its unspeakable neighbor far to the north. For the most part, it looks and feels like a freewheeling place, a country I could live in without much stress at all as long as I stayed out of politics. But its totalitarian past hasn’t entirely faded. No democratic state in the world would inflict noise pollution like this on its citizens. Only an unelected regime that lords it over everyone else from on high would even think of behaving this way in the 21st century.
> 
> Vietnam’s one-party state, despite being much more relaxed than it used to be, still spends hours each day broadcasting bullshit into everyone’s ears whether they like it or not. I couldn’t help laughing at the absurdity.
> 
> Then it hit me: _This is going to wake me up in the morning every single day that I’m here_.
> 
> “What exactly,” I said to the lady at the hotel’s front desk, “is the woman on that loudspeaker talking about?”
> 
> She paused and listened. “She’s telling us about a Communist Party meeting in the ward yesterday.”
> 
> The last vestiges of economic communism appear to have been vaporized. Hanoi looks and feels more like a capitalist Wild West than the actual West does these days. But some habits die harder than others.
> 
> I never asked anyone the name of the woman who reads “the news” at seven o’clock in the morning to a city that’s spectacularly uninterested in listening to it. Her name doesn’t matter. To me she is and always will be the Ant Queen.
> 
> _Rice production is up 200 percent!_
> She isn’t saying anything quite that ludicrous now, but I’ll bet she was back in 1973 when ragged civilians waited in lines on those very same streets to exchange government coupons for meager handfuls of food. Vietnam suffered terrible shortages when its economy was still Marxist-Leninist, but once that system was scrapped and producers were “allowed” to profit from their work on the market, Vietnam became one of the world’s largest exporters of rice.
> 
> I only asked a handful of people if they enjoyed getting “news” from the state every morning and then again at the end of the work day, but surveying a handful was enough. Everyone hates it. Is there any conceivable reason why they would not?
> 
> Even some government officials think it’s ridiculous.
> 
> “For people who live near the speakers, it’s a disaster,” Pham Van Hien said to the _LA Times_ five years ago. “It hurts their ears.” Hien at the time was the chairman of one of Hanoi’s so-called government “communes,” and he tried to convince the party to shut off its public address system and put its broadcasts on the Internet where residents could listen to them voluntarily, but his initiative obviously didn’t work out.
> 
> Vietnam’s nationwide English-language newspaper is, for the most part, a written version of the Ant Queen for foreigners. The vast majority of its articles are tedious descriptions in crushing detail of things government officials did and said the previous day.
> 
> Here’s an example. “President Truong Tan Sang wrapped up a two-day tour of the central province of Quang Tri yesterday, visiting Con Co island district and inspecting the new-style rural area building programme in Vinh Linh District's Vinh Thach Commune… Sang hailed the locality's efforts to implement the new-style rural area building programme. The commune fulfilled 15 of the 19 criteria and aims to achieve the rest by the end of this year.”
> 
> Almost the _entire_ paper is like that. You’ll learn as much about the country reading “news” of that sort as you would if you stayed in your hotel room and napped.
> 
> I brought with me the electronic version of Theodore Dalrymple’s book _The Wilder Shores of Marx_. He visited Vietnam just after the Berlin Wall fell when the country was only beginning to reform its way out of communist economics, and he had a similar experience in one of Saigon’s bookstores.
> 
> I picked up a little volume of the recent speeches of Nguyen Van Linh, General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Part of Vietnam (ie, the Pope). It was called _Vietnam: Urgent Problems_. Following the title page was a photograph of the General Secretary: I knew at once I was not in for an exciting read. The first paragraph was unencouraging.
> 
> “After several days of diligent and active work with a high sense of responsibility to the Party and people, today the 6th Congress of the Communist Party of Vietnam has come to fruition.”
> 
> Although the book was only 147 pages long, I could not help but recall Lord MaCauley’s review of a two-volume biography of Lord Burghley:
> 
> “Compared with the labor of reading these volumes, all other labour, the labour of thieves on the treadmill, the labour of children in the mines, the labour of slaves on the plantation, is but a pleasant recreation.”
> 
> *
> 
> Vietnam is no longer totalitarian. It’s merely authoritarian now.
> 
> The difference may seem strictly semantic, but it’s huge. Jeanne Kirkpatrick explained it in a landmark essay in _Commentary_ in 1979.
> 
> “Traditional autocrats,” she wrote, “leave in place existing allocations of wealth, power, status, and other resources which in most traditional societies favor an affluent few and maintain masses in poverty. But they worship traditional gods and observe traditional taboos. They do not disturb the habitual rhythms of work and leisure, habitual places of residence, habitual patterns of family and personal relations. Because the miseries of traditional life are familiar, they are bearable to ordinary people who, growing up in the society, learn to cope, as children born to untouchables in India acquire the skills and attitudes necessary for survival in the miserable roles they are destined to fill. Such societies create no refugees.
> 
> “Precisely the opposite is true of revolutionary Communist regimes. They create refugees by the million because they claim jurisdiction over the whole life of the society and make demands for change that so violate internalized values and habits that inhabitants flee by the tens of thousands in the remarkable expectation that their attitudes, values, and goals will ‘fit’ better in a foreign country than in their native land.”
> 
> Most Vietnamese-Americans originate in the south. They and their families moved here after the communist north overran Saigon and annexed the republic of South Vietnam in 1975.
> 
> The communists didn’t instigate the widely feared bloodbath, but they did send hundreds of thousands to re-education camps. French historian Jean-Louis Margolin published a letter about the ghastly conditions from prisoners that several dozen orally “signed.” It concluded this way:
> 
> “If it really is the case that humanity at present is recoiling from the spread of Communism, and rejecting at last the claims of the North Vietnamese Communists that their defeat of American imperialism is proof of their invincibility, then we, the prisoners of Vietnam, ask the International Red Cross, humanitarian organizations throughout the world, and all men of goodwill to send us cyanide capsules as soon as possible so that we can put an end to our suffering ourselves.”
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of south Vietnamese fled the country by boat. They didn’t care where they might end up or that they might not make it at all. All they wanted was _out_. They’d rather hurl themselves into the ocean and hope for the best than stick around and be ruled by the revolutionary new government. Cuban exiles in Florida can perhaps relate to them better than anyone else.
> 
> “Without firing a shot,” journalist David Lamb wrote in his book, _Vietnam Now_, “the communist leadership managed to achieve what a generation of war had not: the flight of discontents; more than a million Vietnamese left their homeland in three waves between 1975 and 1989. Never before in any country had so many people fled peace.”
> 
> The north had been terrorized too, as far back as 1931.
> 
> “The Party threw itself into the creation of rural ‘soviets’ in Nge Tinh and started liquidating landlords by the hundreds,” Margolin wrote in _The Black Book of Communism_, translated and published by Harvard University Press. “An article in the Viet Minh press in Hanoi on 29 August recommended that the people set up ‘traitor elimination committees; in every neighborhood and village…Vietnamese women who had married Frenchmen were also systematically slaughtered, although these actions were blamed on people who were not really members of the Viet Minh. In August and September alone the Viet Minh carried out thousands of assassinations and tens of thousands of kidnappings…These fanatics showed not only their unpitying dogmatism, but also the will toward a totalitarian classification of society that was a driving force inside the Vietnamese Communist Party.”
> 
> He estimates that 50,000 people were executed and that as many as 100,000 imprisoned. Not only did fellow communists get the axe—the _majority_ of them got the axe. “86 percent of the members of Party cells in the countryside were purged,” he wrote, “as were 95 percent of the cadres in the anti-French resistance.”
> 
> Ho Chi Minh is dead now, as are his economic ideas. Despite scrapping his system, however, the party still lionizes him for being the founding father of modern, sovereign, unified Vietnam.
> 
> They embalmed his corpse and keep it preserved under glass. Actually, the Russians did the embalming because they know how. They’re experienced. They did the same to Vladimir Lenin. Ho’s body is periodically returned to Russia for a bit of a touch-up. Former US President Bill Clinton was relieved that Ho’s remains were in Moscow for routine maintenance when he visited in 2000 so he wouldn’t have to face the awkward choice of either paying his respects at Ho’s mausoleum or offending his hosts by refusing.
> 
> That worked out for everybody, not just Bill Clinton. A visit to Ho wouldn’t have played well in the US. Scabs on old wounds would have torn open again. Refusing to visit Ho would have cheesed off the Vietnamese government, which is as friendly to the United States now as its people. Clinton was treated like a rock star in Hanoi, and, if anything, the US is even more popular today than it was fourteen years ago.
> 
> Washington and Hanoi will never forget that they were enemies once, but there’s no point in making a big public show of it now. The Vietnamese got it over a long time ago, and the country is now arguably richer and freer than Saigon was under the South Vietnamese government that Americans fought to defend from the north.
> 
> Few Americans would be offended if I visited Ho Chi Minh’s mausoleum, so I put it on my schedule, but the line was three kilometers long in the blazing tropical sunshine. His mausoleum is only open for a few hours in the morning and it’s closed on Mondays and Fridays. I have little doubt that it’s because the government _wants_ a long line. It makes Ho Chi Minh appear more popular than he actually is.
> 
> So I didn’t even try going inside. Outside was interesting enough anyway. A man named Nguyen showed me around.
> 
> In front of Ho’s mausoleum is a gigantic square that makes mere mortals like me and Nguyen appear gnat-sized. Spread out over much of that area are 360 squares of grass. “Each square represents a group of people in Vietnam,” Nguyen said.
> 
> View attachment 56383
> 
> 
> Carrying the analogy forward, I imagined each blade of grass as an individual person. And it gave me the creeps. The entire country is represented as a blocklike structure flat on the ground at the feet of a single dear leader.
> 
> I slightly doubt today’s Vietnamese government would design a public space and monument this way. The country is still a one-party state, but it is no longer militarized, regimented, or blocklike. Like the Ant Queen, the mausoleum and its grounds are anachronistic fragments from the past.
> 
> A few hundred yards from Ho’s mausoleum is his old house, a simple wooden structure on stilts next to a pond. Across the pond is a museum, an architectural delight that seems a perfect fusion of French and Vietnamese.
> 
> Inside, below photographs of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin, Ho’s plain wooden dining room table is covered on only one end with a small bit of cloth. “Ho Chi Minh didn’t need to cover the entire table,” Nguyen said, “so he cut the tablecloth and donated the rest so a poor person could use it.”
> 
> View attachment 56384
> 
> 
> I thought of the story in America about George Washington and the cherry tree. “I cannot tell a lie,” young George said when his father asked if he felled the tree with an axe. Maybe that story is true, but it’s probably not. It’s a cute little story for kids.
> 
> Nguyen showed me the pond behind Ho’s old house.
> 
> “Ho Chi Minh came out here every morning and fed the fish,” he said. “He clapped his hands and the fish came. If we clap our hands the fish will still come because they think Ho Chi Minh is still alive.”
> 
> He did not attempt to prove that hypothesis by clapping his hands.
> 
> The road leading up to Ho’s house is shaded by giant trees—and thank goodness for that. I was dying out there in the heat. “These trees,” Nguyen said, “don’t produce any fruit. Do you know why?”
> 
> View attachment 56385
> 
> 
> “Because it’s too cold this far north?” I said.
> 
> Nguyen didn’t laugh. I’m not sure he realized that I was joking.
> 
> “When Ho Chi Minh planted them,” he said, “the country was only half independent. The south wasn’t yet free. So the trees survived but didn’t produce any fruit.”
> 
> These are stories for six year-olds. I doubt Nguyen believes them, but I didn’t ask. He’s an official guide. The government tells him what to say. I can at least attest to the fact that he doesn’t believe every fantastical story because at one point, when telling me about a wooden dragon at one of the local pagodas, he informed me that “dragon is not a real animal.”
> 
> *
> 
> Hoa Lo Prison, known to Americans as the Hanoi Hilton, was built by French imperialists in the 19thcentury for the warehousing of Vietnamese political prisoners. After the French finally left what they called Indochina, the communist government used it to warehouse American prisoners of war, including John McCain, who later became a US Senator and presidential candidate, and Pete Peterson, who later became a US Congressman and the first US Ambassador to Vietnam after the war.
> 
> The Vietnamese demolished most of the prison but left a piece of it intact and turned it into a museum. An office complex now rises over the rest of the site which includes one of Hanoi’s finest Western-style coffee houses.
> 
> Most of the museum is devoted to French mistreatment of Vietnamese prisoners, which makes sense since that’s what the prison was used for during most of its life. It includes statues of men with shackled ankles and men forced into slave labor.
> 
> View attachment 56386
> 
> 
> Grim murals depict the torture of prisoners. A narrow cell block leads to an execution room complete with a guillotine. Joseph-Ignace Guillotin invented the head-chopping device in 1789 supposedly as a “humanitarian” method for killing. I suppose it was when compared with medieval era devices such as the Catherine Wheel still in use at the time which were arguably more savage even than crucifixion.
> 
> View attachment 56387
> 
> 
> I do not believe in ghosts, detectable remnants of bad emotional energy, or anything else supernatural or paranormal, but I nevertheless felt some seriously bad juju inside Hoa Lo. Standing and walking in the very places where people were so mistreated is not a pleasant experience. These kinds of museums are important, but I nevertheless felt like it wouldn’t be entirely wrong if the Vietnamese one day decide to raze the rest of Hoa Lo and build just about anything in its place.
> 
> For the Vietnamese the museum is all about France, but I was more interested in the American experience there. The official depiction of the “Hanoi Hilton” era of that building’s history is not, shall we say, unflinchingly accurate. I saw no photographs of Americans in prison cells or any mention that they were abused in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, I saw photographs of American prisoners of war decorating a Christmas tree and playing basketball.
> 
> View attachment 56388
> 
> 
> There’s a picture of a young John McCain being treated by a doctor. His flight suit hangs on a wall behind glass.
> 
> McCain says he was tortured in there. So does Pete Peterson, our former ambassador. Surely others were too. Yet there’s no mention of it anywhere in that building.
> 
> We don’t have to hold it against Vietnam that this happened. McCain and Peterson don’t. They appear to have forgiven their former captors and torturers as much as human beings can forgive such a thing, and they both consider themselves friends of Vietnam now. The Vietnamese, for their part, seek a formal alliance with the United States, and for whatever it’s worth I think they should get it. The Vietnamese won’t torture an American captive ever again, nor will Washington ever again bomb Hanoi.
> 
> But the American section of that museum, I have to say, is a farce. Perhaps an understandable one—admitting to and publicly displaying one’s past bad behavior can be uncomfortable—but it’s a farce all the same.
> 
> So is Vietnam’s Museum of Revolution, though it’s nowhere near as bad as it could have been.
> 
> Of course it’s one-sided, and its descriptions use standard-issue communist boilerplate. Still, its biases cast a revealing light onto the communist north’s view of the world, if not today then at least during the 1960s and 70s.
> 
> The southern Vietnamese at that time are dismissed entirely as “puppets,” as if they had no will of their own, as if the only reason they were anti-communist is because the United States persuaded or forced them to be.
> 
> Since the United States and Vietnam are at least on friendly terms if not quite allies just yet, since our people and governments both get along without any hiccups, and since the north and the south are unified and more or less at peace with each other, maybe it’s time to jettison that kind of language.
> 
> View attachment 56389
> 
> 
> That language is not even accurate. An honest museum might feature on its walls a poem by Trinh Cong Son, which includes the following all-too-true lines. “Open your eyes and turn over the enemy corpses. There are Vietnamese faces upon them.”
> 
> The majority of human beings everywhere in the world who found themselves under communist rule ended up, to one extent or another, as anti-communists. Otherwise, communism would still be a viable force. Communist parties would win elections. Communists would never have needed to round up so many political prisoners and send to them to gulags or re-education camps. Communist regimes would never have created so many millions of refugees or felt the need to murder a combined total of 100 million people.
> 
> But the word _communist_ means different things in the United States and in Hanoi. The Communist Party is still in power yet Vietnam is a hypercapitalist wonderland. While most of us equate communism with totalitarian economics and government, in Vietnam it also has a nationalist dimension.
> 
> They’ll tell you that if you ask them about it, and their definition made a little more sense when I saw an old ration book from the 1970s behind glass. That book, the description said, was from “the subsidy period.” I think of the 1970s as the _communist_ period, but the Communist Party defines it as the_subsidy_ period.
> 
> “Vietnam was never all that ideologically communist,” said Pete Peterson, our former ambassador and Hanoi Hilton survivor when I called him at his home in Melbourne, Australia. “It was always more socialist and nationalist. I told them they should stop calling themselves the Communist Party, but I didn’t get anywhere with it. Everybody pays for everything over there, including health care. The government hardly provides anything. Sweden is more socialist than Vietnam.”
> 
> That sounds about right. Whether or not he was right about Vietnam’s communists in the past, I know he is right about them today. Back during the “subsidy period,” people used to queue up for handfuls of rice on the same streets where they can now buy smart phones and iPads. Communism, Marxist economics, subsidies, or whatever we want to call it only lasted from north to south from 1975 to 1989 before if was junked.
> 
> View attachment 56390
> 
> 
> The totalitarian system of political control has likewise eased up. Facebook and Twitter used to be banned, but they’re not anymore. Vietnamese were once prohibited from even _speaking_ to foreigners, but that hasn’t been the case for a long time. _The Lives of Others_, one of the best anti-communist films ever made, played in movie theaters in Hanoi while I was there. I could hardly believe it, and yet there it was.
> 
> The phrase “regime-change” has been bandied about in the West for some time now and generally refers to the overthrow of a government by external forces, such as the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq in 2003. It can also, of course, refer to the kind of revolution from below that we saw in Tunisia in 2011 and in Eastern Europe when the Berlin Wall fell.
> 
> But there really is a third type of regime-change, and we’ve seen it in Vietnam (as well as in China). The same party, the Communist Party, has been in power for decades, but the party, the regime, has dramatically _changed_. That change came not from outside the country or from inside and below but from within the regime and the party itself.
> 
> The Ant Queen still wakes everyone up in the morning and one could argue that the museums themselves belong in a museum, but these relics of a bygone era stand out so starkly because they’re at odds with everyone and everything else.
> 
> Voluntary regime-change isn’t common in history, but it would be wrong to say it’s unheard of.
> 
> *Post-script: *If you enjoyed reading this dispatch, please consider contributing with a donation. Many thanks in advance!


It's a nice article you got there. The tone is a bit anti-communist but it's true to most parts.

The morning news is annoying at first, and there is also the afternoon news. But once you get used to it, you don't even notice it's playing. It took me 2 months to totally ignore the news broadcasting.

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## Rent

I think I may have commented on this in my previous post.

Below is a good article that may give you a better explanation to why there are myths in History.

The Use of Myth in History : The Colonial Williamsburg Official History & Citizenship Site



Grand Historian said:


> I already stated that Chinese myths don't exist,how can I take Vietnamese member seriously if they insist on using mythology to back up their statements.
> 
> How is asking for proof smearing?


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> You do realize that Wang Anshi only advocated for a Song invasion when the Ly dynasty forcibly took control of Qinzhou and Lianzhou which breached Song borders as well making excuses that the Ly were apprehending a criminal.
> 
> Before this Wang Anshi didn't want the Nong Zhigao rebellion to play out again so he negotiated with the Zhuang so they became Song militia,while Than Thieu Thai constantly raided Guangnan which understandably the Song reinforced the area.
> 
> There was only a 2,800 garrison force in Yongzhou yet it took the Vietnamese force 42 days to conquer it,you also fail to mention the Vietnamese cruelty ie the massacre of its inhabitants.
> 
> The Japanese attempted to launch a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor yet no one today argues for its legitimacy,the Ly dynasty attempted to provoke the Song and that resulted in an Song invasion in which half of the troops died of disease not Vietnamese military superiority and which resulted in a Song victory.
> 
> Vietnamese sure love to lie that China's always the aggressor however multiple Chinese invasions have shown that Vietnamese states attempted to seize Chinese territory,resources and manpower.



You lie.

Nungz Cigaoh was killed long time ago, from year 1055. 

In 1075 Wang Anshi told the Song emperor that Đại Việt was being destroyed by Champa, with less than ten thousand soldiers surviving, hence it would be a good occasion to annex Đại Việt. 

The Song emperor mobilized troops and passed decrees to forbid all the provinces to trade with Đại Việt. Upon hearing the news, the Lý ruler sent Lý Thường Kiệt and Nùng Tôn Đản to carry primitive action on Yongzhou.

You can say that in Yongzhou was empty.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I think I may have commented on this in my previous post.
> 
> Below is a good article that may give you a better explanation to why there are myths in History.
> 
> The Use of Myth in History : The Colonial Williamsburg Official History & Citizenship Site


Are tall tales of one individual equivalent to the myth that Vietnamese ruled southern China?

I deny your myths not because they're Vietnamese but because they defy archaeology and historical sources same reason why I don't believe in Chinese mythology.



dichoi said:


> You lie.
> 
> Nungz Cigaoh was killed long time ago, from year 1055.
> 
> In 1075 Wang Anshi told the Song emperor that Đại Việt was being destroyed by Champa, with less than ten thousand soldiers surviving, hence it would be a good occasion to annex Đại Việt.
> 
> The Song emperor mobilized troops and passed decrees to forbid all the provinces to trade with Đại Việt. Upon hearing the news, the Lý ruler sent Lý Thường Kiệt and Nùng Tôn Đản to carry primitive action on Yongzhou.
> 
> You can say that in Yongzhou was empty.


You must have trouble comprehending English,the Song did not want a second Nong Zhigao therefore they tried to cement an alliance with the Zhuang chieftains. 

Give me the exact quote from a Chinese source that Wang Anshi told Song Shengzong this,The Cambridge History of China has already shown that the Ly were intruding onto Song lands and smearing Wang Anshi therefore provoking him.

You don't seem to realize that after Song Shenzong's death Wang Anshi was forced to resign therefore the invasion of Dai Viet was not Wang Anshi's doing.

While Wang Anshi's biography in the Song Shi doesn't even mention this.

Why don't your history books teach you about the Ly forces massacring the Chinese,instead they gnash their teeth and whine about Chinese atrocities.


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## Rent

Solomon2 said:


> *Dispatches*
> *Michael J. Totten*
> 
> *The Ghosts of Communism in Asia*
> 15 September 2014
> View attachment 56381
> 
> 
> I awoke from a fitful jet-lagged sleep in Hanoi to the sound of communist propaganda being broadcast outside on a city-wide sound system. It began with patriotic Vietnamese music, which I first thought an annoying neighbor must be playing on a boom box or car stereo, but then the Ant Queen came onto the air.
> 
> She obviously worked for the government. Nobody needed to tell me that. She sounded too official to be anything but the spokesperson for the ruler of an ant hill barking orders at worker drones. This was no radio station DJ, and anyway, no radio station on earth blasts an entire city at full volume from a public address system.
> 
> I stayed in a small boutique hotel the size of a large bed-and-breakfast tucked between businesses on a main street in the Old Quarter. The sidewalk was just outside and only one story down. Judging by its volume, I could swear one of the speakers was right outside my window.
> 
> I rose, bleary-eyed, and when I yanked back the curtain, sure enough, a megaphone wired into a rat’s nest of electrical wires was indeed less than three feet from the glass and pointing at the street and sidewalk below.
> 
> View attachment 56382
> 
> 
> Grumbling, I returned to bed. But the Ant Queen wouldn’t shut up. When I emerged from the shower, she was still haranguing the city. When I finished my breakfast downstairs she was _still_ at it.
> 
> “What on earth is going on outside?” I said to the woman at the front desk.
> 
> “It’s the morning news from the government,” she said. She looked a little embarrassed. “I know it’s loud. Sorry.” She actually cringed when she said the word _sorry_. She must have to explain this to foreign visitors constantly.
> 
> “Oh, that’s just propaganda,” another Vietnamese person said dismissively when I later asked for a second opinion. I’m keeping his name out of this so he won’t get in trouble.
> 
> “Does anyone listen to it?” I said.
> 
> “It’s impossible not to,” he said and laughed, “because it’s so loud.”
> 
> I found the whole thing amusing initially. What an anachronism! I encountered what I would have expected in a place like Moscow circa 1956, and I found it in tropical Southeast Asia in the year 2014.
> 
> Somebody recorded one of these state public addresses on a video camera and uploaded it to YouTube. The clip is eight years old, but the phenomenon he recorded is still going strong.
> 
> Obviously it’s a leftover from the totalitarian era. I flew to Hanoi from Seattle via Taipei, and I know without even checking that nothing remotely like this exists in Taiwan even though I never made it out of the airport. Nor does anything like it exist in the Philippines. Or South Korea. Or Thailand. Certainly not in Japan.
> 
> But a touch of North Korea remains behind in Hanoi.
> 
> Vietnam is emphatically not regulated or regimented like its unspeakable neighbor far to the north. For the most part, it looks and feels like a freewheeling place, a country I could live in without much stress at all as long as I stayed out of politics. But its totalitarian past hasn’t entirely faded. No democratic state in the world would inflict noise pollution like this on its citizens. Only an unelected regime that lords it over everyone else from on high would even think of behaving this way in the 21st century.
> 
> Vietnam’s one-party state, despite being much more relaxed than it used to be, still spends hours each day broadcasting bullshit into everyone’s ears whether they like it or not. I couldn’t help laughing at the absurdity.
> 
> Then it hit me: _This is going to wake me up in the morning every single day that I’m here_.
> 
> “What exactly,” I said to the lady at the hotel’s front desk, “is the woman on that loudspeaker talking about?”
> 
> She paused and listened. “She’s telling us about a Communist Party meeting in the ward yesterday.”
> 
> The last vestiges of economic communism appear to have been vaporized. Hanoi looks and feels more like a capitalist Wild West than the actual West does these days. But some habits die harder than others.
> 
> I never asked anyone the name of the woman who reads “the news” at seven o’clock in the morning to a city that’s spectacularly uninterested in listening to it. Her name doesn’t matter. To me she is and always will be the Ant Queen.
> 
> _Rice production is up 200 percent!_
> She isn’t saying anything quite that ludicrous now, but I’ll bet she was back in 1973 when ragged civilians waited in lines on those very same streets to exchange government coupons for meager handfuls of food. Vietnam suffered terrible shortages when its economy was still Marxist-Leninist, but once that system was scrapped and producers were “allowed” to profit from their work on the market, Vietnam became one of the world’s largest exporters of rice.
> 
> I only asked a handful of people if they enjoyed getting “news” from the state every morning and then again at the end of the work day, but surveying a handful was enough. Everyone hates it. Is there any conceivable reason why they would not?
> 
> Even some government officials think it’s ridiculous.
> 
> “For people who live near the speakers, it’s a disaster,” Pham Van Hien said to the _LA Times_ five years ago. “It hurts their ears.” Hien at the time was the chairman of one of Hanoi’s so-called government “communes,” and he tried to convince the party to shut off its public address system and put its broadcasts on the Internet where residents could listen to them voluntarily, but his initiative obviously didn’t work out.
> 
> Vietnam’s nationwide English-language newspaper is, for the most part, a written version of the Ant Queen for foreigners. The vast majority of its articles are tedious descriptions in crushing detail of things government officials did and said the previous day.
> 
> Here’s an example. “President Truong Tan Sang wrapped up a two-day tour of the central province of Quang Tri yesterday, visiting Con Co island district and inspecting the new-style rural area building programme in Vinh Linh District's Vinh Thach Commune… Sang hailed the locality's efforts to implement the new-style rural area building programme. The commune fulfilled 15 of the 19 criteria and aims to achieve the rest by the end of this year.”
> 
> Almost the _entire_ paper is like that. You’ll learn as much about the country reading “news” of that sort as you would if you stayed in your hotel room and napped.
> 
> I brought with me the electronic version of Theodore Dalrymple’s book _The Wilder Shores of Marx_. He visited Vietnam just after the Berlin Wall fell when the country was only beginning to reform its way out of communist economics, and he had a similar experience in one of Saigon’s bookstores.
> 
> I picked up a little volume of the recent speeches of Nguyen Van Linh, General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Part of Vietnam (ie, the Pope). It was called _Vietnam: Urgent Problems_. Following the title page was a photograph of the General Secretary: I knew at once I was not in for an exciting read. The first paragraph was unencouraging.
> 
> “After several days of diligent and active work with a high sense of responsibility to the Party and people, today the 6th Congress of the Communist Party of Vietnam has come to fruition.”
> 
> Although the book was only 147 pages long, I could not help but recall Lord MaCauley’s review of a two-volume biography of Lord Burghley:
> 
> “Compared with the labor of reading these volumes, all other labour, the labour of thieves on the treadmill, the labour of children in the mines, the labour of slaves on the plantation, is but a pleasant recreation.”
> 
> *
> 
> Vietnam is no longer totalitarian. It’s merely authoritarian now.
> 
> The difference may seem strictly semantic, but it’s huge. Jeanne Kirkpatrick explained it in a landmark essay in _Commentary_ in 1979.
> 
> “Traditional autocrats,” she wrote, “leave in place existing allocations of wealth, power, status, and other resources which in most traditional societies favor an affluent few and maintain masses in poverty. But they worship traditional gods and observe traditional taboos. They do not disturb the habitual rhythms of work and leisure, habitual places of residence, habitual patterns of family and personal relations. Because the miseries of traditional life are familiar, they are bearable to ordinary people who, growing up in the society, learn to cope, as children born to untouchables in India acquire the skills and attitudes necessary for survival in the miserable roles they are destined to fill. Such societies create no refugees.
> 
> “Precisely the opposite is true of revolutionary Communist regimes. They create refugees by the million because they claim jurisdiction over the whole life of the society and make demands for change that so violate internalized values and habits that inhabitants flee by the tens of thousands in the remarkable expectation that their attitudes, values, and goals will ‘fit’ better in a foreign country than in their native land.”
> 
> Most Vietnamese-Americans originate in the south. They and their families moved here after the communist north overran Saigon and annexed the republic of South Vietnam in 1975.
> 
> The communists didn’t instigate the widely feared bloodbath, but they did send hundreds of thousands to re-education camps. French historian Jean-Louis Margolin published a letter about the ghastly conditions from prisoners that several dozen orally “signed.” It concluded this way:
> 
> “If it really is the case that humanity at present is recoiling from the spread of Communism, and rejecting at last the claims of the North Vietnamese Communists that their defeat of American imperialism is proof of their invincibility, then we, the prisoners of Vietnam, ask the International Red Cross, humanitarian organizations throughout the world, and all men of goodwill to send us cyanide capsules as soon as possible so that we can put an end to our suffering ourselves.”
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of south Vietnamese fled the country by boat. They didn’t care where they might end up or that they might not make it at all. All they wanted was _out_. They’d rather hurl themselves into the ocean and hope for the best than stick around and be ruled by the revolutionary new government. Cuban exiles in Florida can perhaps relate to them better than anyone else.
> 
> “Without firing a shot,” journalist David Lamb wrote in his book, _Vietnam Now_, “the communist leadership managed to achieve what a generation of war had not: the flight of discontents; more than a million Vietnamese left their homeland in three waves between 1975 and 1989. Never before in any country had so many people fled peace.”
> 
> The north had been terrorized too, as far back as 1931.
> 
> “The Party threw itself into the creation of rural ‘soviets’ in Nge Tinh and started liquidating landlords by the hundreds,” Margolin wrote in _The Black Book of Communism_, translated and published by Harvard University Press. “An article in the Viet Minh press in Hanoi on 29 August recommended that the people set up ‘traitor elimination committees; in every neighborhood and village…Vietnamese women who had married Frenchmen were also systematically slaughtered, although these actions were blamed on people who were not really members of the Viet Minh. In August and September alone the Viet Minh carried out thousands of assassinations and tens of thousands of kidnappings…These fanatics showed not only their unpitying dogmatism, but also the will toward a totalitarian classification of society that was a driving force inside the Vietnamese Communist Party.”
> 
> He estimates that 50,000 people were executed and that as many as 100,000 imprisoned. Not only did fellow communists get the axe—the _majority_ of them got the axe. “86 percent of the members of Party cells in the countryside were purged,” he wrote, “as were 95 percent of the cadres in the anti-French resistance.”
> 
> Ho Chi Minh is dead now, as are his economic ideas. Despite scrapping his system, however, the party still lionizes him for being the founding father of modern, sovereign, unified Vietnam.
> 
> They embalmed his corpse and keep it preserved under glass. Actually, the Russians did the embalming because they know how. They’re experienced. They did the same to Vladimir Lenin. Ho’s body is periodically returned to Russia for a bit of a touch-up. Former US President Bill Clinton was relieved that Ho’s remains were in Moscow for routine maintenance when he visited in 2000 so he wouldn’t have to face the awkward choice of either paying his respects at Ho’s mausoleum or offending his hosts by refusing.
> 
> That worked out for everybody, not just Bill Clinton. A visit to Ho wouldn’t have played well in the US. Scabs on old wounds would have torn open again. Refusing to visit Ho would have cheesed off the Vietnamese government, which is as friendly to the United States now as its people. Clinton was treated like a rock star in Hanoi, and, if anything, the US is even more popular today than it was fourteen years ago.
> 
> Washington and Hanoi will never forget that they were enemies once, but there’s no point in making a big public show of it now. The Vietnamese got it over a long time ago, and the country is now arguably richer and freer than Saigon was under the South Vietnamese government that Americans fought to defend from the north.
> 
> Few Americans would be offended if I visited Ho Chi Minh’s mausoleum, so I put it on my schedule, but the line was three kilometers long in the blazing tropical sunshine. His mausoleum is only open for a few hours in the morning and it’s closed on Mondays and Fridays. I have little doubt that it’s because the government _wants_ a long line. It makes Ho Chi Minh appear more popular than he actually is.
> 
> So I didn’t even try going inside. Outside was interesting enough anyway. A man named Nguyen showed me around.
> 
> In front of Ho’s mausoleum is a gigantic square that makes mere mortals like me and Nguyen appear gnat-sized. Spread out over much of that area are 360 squares of grass. “Each square represents a group of people in Vietnam,” Nguyen said.
> 
> View attachment 56383
> 
> 
> Carrying the analogy forward, I imagined each blade of grass as an individual person. And it gave me the creeps. The entire country is represented as a blocklike structure flat on the ground at the feet of a single dear leader.
> 
> I slightly doubt today’s Vietnamese government would design a public space and monument this way. The country is still a one-party state, but it is no longer militarized, regimented, or blocklike. Like the Ant Queen, the mausoleum and its grounds are anachronistic fragments from the past.
> 
> A few hundred yards from Ho’s mausoleum is his old house, a simple wooden structure on stilts next to a pond. Across the pond is a museum, an architectural delight that seems a perfect fusion of French and Vietnamese.
> 
> Inside, below photographs of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin, Ho’s plain wooden dining room table is covered on only one end with a small bit of cloth. “Ho Chi Minh didn’t need to cover the entire table,” Nguyen said, “so he cut the tablecloth and donated the rest so a poor person could use it.”
> 
> View attachment 56384
> 
> 
> I thought of the story in America about George Washington and the cherry tree. “I cannot tell a lie,” young George said when his father asked if he felled the tree with an axe. Maybe that story is true, but it’s probably not. It’s a cute little story for kids.
> 
> Nguyen showed me the pond behind Ho’s old house.
> 
> “Ho Chi Minh came out here every morning and fed the fish,” he said. “He clapped his hands and the fish came. If we clap our hands the fish will still come because they think Ho Chi Minh is still alive.”
> 
> He did not attempt to prove that hypothesis by clapping his hands.
> 
> The road leading up to Ho’s house is shaded by giant trees—and thank goodness for that. I was dying out there in the heat. “These trees,” Nguyen said, “don’t produce any fruit. Do you know why?”
> 
> View attachment 56385
> 
> 
> “Because it’s too cold this far north?” I said.
> 
> Nguyen didn’t laugh. I’m not sure he realized that I was joking.
> 
> “When Ho Chi Minh planted them,” he said, “the country was only half independent. The south wasn’t yet free. So the trees survived but didn’t produce any fruit.”
> 
> These are stories for six year-olds. I doubt Nguyen believes them, but I didn’t ask. He’s an official guide. The government tells him what to say. I can at least attest to the fact that he doesn’t believe every fantastical story because at one point, when telling me about a wooden dragon at one of the local pagodas, he informed me that “dragon is not a real animal.”
> 
> *
> 
> Hoa Lo Prison, known to Americans as the Hanoi Hilton, was built by French imperialists in the 19thcentury for the warehousing of Vietnamese political prisoners. After the French finally left what they called Indochina, the communist government used it to warehouse American prisoners of war, including John McCain, who later became a US Senator and presidential candidate, and Pete Peterson, who later became a US Congressman and the first US Ambassador to Vietnam after the war.
> 
> The Vietnamese demolished most of the prison but left a piece of it intact and turned it into a museum. An office complex now rises over the rest of the site which includes one of Hanoi’s finest Western-style coffee houses.
> 
> Most of the museum is devoted to French mistreatment of Vietnamese prisoners, which makes sense since that’s what the prison was used for during most of its life. It includes statues of men with shackled ankles and men forced into slave labor.
> 
> View attachment 56386
> 
> 
> Grim murals depict the torture of prisoners. A narrow cell block leads to an execution room complete with a guillotine. Joseph-Ignace Guillotin invented the head-chopping device in 1789 supposedly as a “humanitarian” method for killing. I suppose it was when compared with medieval era devices such as the Catherine Wheel still in use at the time which were arguably more savage even than crucifixion.
> 
> View attachment 56387
> 
> 
> I do not believe in ghosts, detectable remnants of bad emotional energy, or anything else supernatural or paranormal, but I nevertheless felt some seriously bad juju inside Hoa Lo. Standing and walking in the very places where people were so mistreated is not a pleasant experience. These kinds of museums are important, but I nevertheless felt like it wouldn’t be entirely wrong if the Vietnamese one day decide to raze the rest of Hoa Lo and build just about anything in its place.
> 
> For the Vietnamese the museum is all about France, but I was more interested in the American experience there. The official depiction of the “Hanoi Hilton” era of that building’s history is not, shall we say, unflinchingly accurate. I saw no photographs of Americans in prison cells or any mention that they were abused in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, I saw photographs of American prisoners of war decorating a Christmas tree and playing basketball.
> 
> View attachment 56388
> 
> 
> There’s a picture of a young John McCain being treated by a doctor. His flight suit hangs on a wall behind glass.
> 
> McCain says he was tortured in there. So does Pete Peterson, our former ambassador. Surely others were too. Yet there’s no mention of it anywhere in that building.
> 
> We don’t have to hold it against Vietnam that this happened. McCain and Peterson don’t. They appear to have forgiven their former captors and torturers as much as human beings can forgive such a thing, and they both consider themselves friends of Vietnam now. The Vietnamese, for their part, seek a formal alliance with the United States, and for whatever it’s worth I think they should get it. The Vietnamese won’t torture an American captive ever again, nor will Washington ever again bomb Hanoi.
> 
> But the American section of that museum, I have to say, is a farce. Perhaps an understandable one—admitting to and publicly displaying one’s past bad behavior can be uncomfortable—but it’s a farce all the same.
> 
> So is Vietnam’s Museum of Revolution, though it’s nowhere near as bad as it could have been.
> 
> Of course it’s one-sided, and its descriptions use standard-issue communist boilerplate. Still, its biases cast a revealing light onto the communist north’s view of the world, if not today then at least during the 1960s and 70s.
> 
> The southern Vietnamese at that time are dismissed entirely as “puppets,” as if they had no will of their own, as if the only reason they were anti-communist is because the United States persuaded or forced them to be.
> 
> Since the United States and Vietnam are at least on friendly terms if not quite allies just yet, since our people and governments both get along without any hiccups, and since the north and the south are unified and more or less at peace with each other, maybe it’s time to jettison that kind of language.
> 
> View attachment 56389
> 
> 
> That language is not even accurate. An honest museum might feature on its walls a poem by Trinh Cong Son, which includes the following all-too-true lines. “Open your eyes and turn over the enemy corpses. There are Vietnamese faces upon them.”
> 
> The majority of human beings everywhere in the world who found themselves under communist rule ended up, to one extent or another, as anti-communists. Otherwise, communism would still be a viable force. Communist parties would win elections. Communists would never have needed to round up so many political prisoners and send to them to gulags or re-education camps. Communist regimes would never have created so many millions of refugees or felt the need to murder a combined total of 100 million people.
> 
> But the word _communist_ means different things in the United States and in Hanoi. The Communist Party is still in power yet Vietnam is a hypercapitalist wonderland. While most of us equate communism with totalitarian economics and government, in Vietnam it also has a nationalist dimension.
> 
> They’ll tell you that if you ask them about it, and their definition made a little more sense when I saw an old ration book from the 1970s behind glass. That book, the description said, was from “the subsidy period.” I think of the 1970s as the _communist_ period, but the Communist Party defines it as the_subsidy_ period.
> 
> “Vietnam was never all that ideologically communist,” said Pete Peterson, our former ambassador and Hanoi Hilton survivor when I called him at his home in Melbourne, Australia. “It was always more socialist and nationalist. I told them they should stop calling themselves the Communist Party, but I didn’t get anywhere with it. Everybody pays for everything over there, including health care. The government hardly provides anything. Sweden is more socialist than Vietnam.”
> 
> That sounds about right. Whether or not he was right about Vietnam’s communists in the past, I know he is right about them today. Back during the “subsidy period,” people used to queue up for handfuls of rice on the same streets where they can now buy smart phones and iPads. Communism, Marxist economics, subsidies, or whatever we want to call it only lasted from north to south from 1975 to 1989 before if was junked.
> 
> View attachment 56390
> 
> 
> The totalitarian system of political control has likewise eased up. Facebook and Twitter used to be banned, but they’re not anymore. Vietnamese were once prohibited from even _speaking_ to foreigners, but that hasn’t been the case for a long time. _The Lives of Others_, one of the best anti-communist films ever made, played in movie theaters in Hanoi while I was there. I could hardly believe it, and yet there it was.
> 
> The phrase “regime-change” has been bandied about in the West for some time now and generally refers to the overthrow of a government by external forces, such as the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq in 2003. It can also, of course, refer to the kind of revolution from below that we saw in Tunisia in 2011 and in Eastern Europe when the Berlin Wall fell.
> 
> But there really is a third type of regime-change, and we’ve seen it in Vietnam (as well as in China). The same party, the Communist Party, has been in power for decades, but the party, the regime, has dramatically _changed_. That change came not from outside the country or from inside and below but from within the regime and the party itself.
> 
> The Ant Queen still wakes everyone up in the morning and one could argue that the museums themselves belong in a museum, but these relics of a bygone era stand out so starkly because they’re at odds with everyone and everything else.
> 
> Voluntary regime-change isn’t common in history, but it would be wrong to say it’s unheard of.
> 
> *Post-script: *If you enjoyed reading this dispatch, please consider contributing with a donation. Many thanks in advance!


This article of a first person account was very informative since this was before my time or I wasn't there to witness it, although, I did hear of this from my parents. I hope to have your views once we get through the ancient wars with China to the history of the Vietnam War.

Thank you for the post.


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## Rent

There are ugly sides of war that may not be appropriate for the conservative way of thinking of the era to be taught to children in school. However, there may be other documents for military and government use that may go into greater details of the event.

You sound bitter. Please keep an open mind as we are talking about "history", an official written recollection of accounts by an individual and not the notes or diaries of the actual person who lived through the event.



Grand Historian said:


> Are tall tales of one individual equivalent to the myth that Vietnamese ruled southern China?
> 
> I deny your myths not because they're Vietnamese but because they defy archaeology and historical sources same reason why I don't believe in Chinese mythology.
> 
> 
> You must have trouble comprehending English,the Song did not want a second Nong Zhigao therefore they tried to cement an alliance with the Zhuang chieftains.
> 
> Give me the exact quote from a Chinese source that Wang Anshi told Song Shengzong this,The Cambridge History of China has already shown that the Ly were intruding onto Song lands and smearing Wang Anshi therefore provoking him.
> 
> You don't seem to realize that after Song Shenzong's death Wang Anshi was forced to resign therefore the invasion of Dai Viet was not Wang Anshi's doing.
> 
> While Wang Anshi's biography in the Song Shi doesn't even mention this.
> 
> Why don't your history books teach you about the Ly forces massacring the Chinese,instead they gnash their teeth and whine about Chinese atrocities.

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## Rent

_


dichoi said:



You lie.

Nungz Cigaoh was killed long time ago, from year 1055.

In 1075 Wang Anshi told the Song emperor that Đại Việt was being destroyed by Champa, with less than ten thousand soldiers surviving, hence it would be a good occasion to annex Đại Việt. 

The Song emperor mobilized troops and passed decrees to forbid all the provinces to trade with Đại Việt. Upon hearing the news, the Lý ruler sent Lý Thường Kiệt and Nùng Tôn Đản to carry primitive action on Yongzhou.

You can say that in Yongzhou was empty.

Click to expand...

Lý Thường Kiệt is regarded as a great military strategist by Vietnamese who fought off the invading Song army in the year 1075. Could you tell me how many troops were sent by the evading side and what was the poem that he wrote?
_


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> You do realize that Wang Anshi only advocated for a Song invasion when the Ly dynasty forcibly took control of Qinzhou and Lianzhou which breached Song borders as well making excuses that the Ly were apprehending a criminal.
> 
> Before this Wang Anshi didn't want the Nong Zhigao rebellion to play out again so he negotiated with the Zhuang so they became Song militia,while Than Thieu Thai constantly raided Guangnan which understandably the Song reinforced the area.
> 
> There was only a 2,800 garrison force in Yongzhou yet it took the Vietnamese force 42 days to conquer it,you also fail to mention the Vietnamese cruelty ie the massacre of its inhabitants.
> 
> The Japanese attempted to launch a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor yet no one today argues for its legitimacy,the Ly dynasty attempted to provoke the Song and that resulted in an Song invasion in which half of the troops died of disease not Vietnamese military superiority and which resulted in a Song victory.
> 
> Vietnamese sure love to lie that China's always the aggressor however multiple Chinese invasions have shown that Vietnamese states attempted to seize Chinese territory,resources and manpower.


well, I am not sure, but you can correct me if wrong. I say the Vietnamese incursions into Chinese territories are not comparable to the Japanese strike on Pearl Harbor.

as far as I know, ancient China had no concept of sovereignty, neither on land nor at sea. China had not exiplicity drawn the border of China on any maps. you never mentioned in records the seas (east or south east china sea) belong to China. All ancient maps of China contain no clear marked border between China and Vietnam. so Vietnamese incursions into China, or Chinese invasions into Vietnam are not really comparable to what we see as violence of borders or aggressions as today?

Perhaps it is because you claimed "everything under the sky belongs to the son of heaven". Chinese emperors saw no need to say "this and that are mine, and this is yours".

as for history, Ly thuong kiet was the man who called for a clear demarcation between Vietnam and China in the northern front. Or the Kingdom of Champa called for clear demarcation between Dai Viet and Champa in the southern front.

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> You must have trouble comprehending English,the Song did not want a second Nong Zhigao therefore they tried to cement an alliance with the Zhuang chieftains.
> Give me the exact quote from a Chinese source that Wang Anshi told Song Shengzong this,The Cambridge History of China has already shown that the Ly were intruding onto Song lands and smearing Wang Anshi therefore provoking him.
> You don't seem to realize that after Song Shenzong's death Wang Anshi was forced to resign therefore the invasion of Dai Viet was not Wang Anshi's doing.
> While Wang Anshi's biography in the Song Shi doesn't even mention this.
> Why don't your history books teach you about the Ly forces massacring the Chinese,instead they gnash their teeth and whine about Chinese atrocities.



Wang Anshi was invited by Song Shenzong to be Primer Minster of Song court from year 1070 . So without approval of Wang Anshi, no proposal or plant to annex Dai Viet to Song Dynasty should been approved.

Two Song guan Shen Ki (Thẩm Khởi) and Liu Ji (Lưu Di) were ordered to mobilize inhabitants (punti people), produce weapons, build many boats and warships, training soldiers...etc to conquer Dai Viet.



Rent said:


> _Lý Thường Kiệt is regarded as a great military strategist by Vietnamese who fought off the invading Song army in the year 1075. Could you tell me how many troops were sent by the evading side and what was the poem that he wrote?_



Yes, Lý Thường Kiêt (李常傑; 1019–1105) was a Vietnamese general during the Lý Dynasty.. and he is regarded as a Vietnamese National hero.

He penned what is considered the first Vietnamese declaration of independence with his poem. It said:

* 南國山河*
南 國 山 河 南 帝 居
截 然 定 分 在 天 書
如 何 逆 虜 來 侵 犯
汝 等 行 看 取 敗 虛

Dịch thơ:
*Sông núi nước Nam*
Sông núi nước Nam, vua Nam ở
Rành rành định phận tại sách trời
Cớ sao lũ giặc sang xâm phạm?
Chúng bay sẽ bị đánh tơi bời.

sorry, I can't translate into English,

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## bolo

dichoi said:


> Wang Anshi was invited by Song Shenzong to be Primer Minster of Song court from year 1070 . So without approval of Wang Anshi, no proposal or plant to annex Dai Viet to Song Dynasty should been approved.
> 
> Two Song guan Shen Ki (Thẩm Khởi) and Liu Ji (Lưu Di) were ordered to mobilize inhabitants (punti people), produce weapons, build many boats and warships, training soldiers...etc to conquer Dai Viet.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Lý Thường Kiêt (李常傑; 1019–1105) was a Vietnamese general during the Lý Dynasty.. and he is regarded as a Vietnamese National hero.
> 
> He penned what is considered the first Vietnamese declaration of independence with his poem. It said:
> 
> * 南國山河*
> 南 國 山 河 南 帝 居
> 截 然 定 分 在 天 書
> 如 何 逆 虜 來 侵 犯
> 汝 等 行 看 取 敗 虛
> 
> Dịch thơ:
> *Sông núi nước Nam*
> Sông núi nước Nam, vua Nam ở
> Rành rành định phận tại sách trời
> Cớ sao lũ giặc sang xâm phạm?
> Chúng bay sẽ bị đánh tơi bời.
> 
> sorry, I can't translate into English,



Viet dogs do not have your own writing system.


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## Viet

I suggest we all stop insulting, shouting and change the topics?

beautiful Viet girl in America 
Mayor of the City of Newark Alan Nagy honours Jennifer Chung for her charitable activities to help the poor, old and homeless in the US

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> There are ugly sides of war that may not be appropriate for the conservative way of thinking of the era to be taught to children in school. However, there may be other documents for military and government use that may go into greater details of the event.
> 
> You sound bitter. Please keep an open mind as we are talking about "history", an official written recollection of accounts by an individual and not the notes or diaries of the actual person who lived through the event.


No,I'm just tired of the fairy tales that Vietnamese try to pass off as history,but I suppose thieves will be thieves.

ie Chinese stole Vietnamese land in southern China,Chinese stole surnames from Vietnamese,Chinese stole architecture from Vietnamese,Chinese stole Shennong from Vietnamese,the list goes on and on.



Viet said:


> well, I am not sure, but you can correct me if wrong. I say the Vietnamese incursions into Chinese territories are not comparable to the Japanese strike on Pearl Harbor.
> 
> as far as I know, ancient China had no concept of sovereignty, neither on land nor at sea. China had not exiplicity drawn the border of China on any maps. you never mentioned in records the seas (east or south east china sea) belong to China. All ancient maps of China contain no clear marked border between China and Vietnam. so Vietnamese incursions into China, or Chinese invasions into Vietnam are not really comparable to what we see as violence of borders or aggressions as today?
> 
> Perhaps it is because you claimed "everything under the sky belongs to the son of heaven". Chinese emperors saw no need to say "this and that are mine, and this is yours".
> 
> as for history, Ly thuong kiet was the man who called for a clear demarcation between Vietnam and China in the northern front. Or the Kingdom of Champa called for clear demarcation between Dai Viet and Champa in the southern front.


Except that Yongzhou wasn't on the border regions and neither was it ruled by Tusi such as the Zhuang.

You would have a better argument if it was some city where the Zhuang held nominal sovereignty however Yongzhou was already under direct Song jurisdiction.



dichoi said:


> Wang Anshi was invited by Song Shenzong to be Primer Minster of Song court from year 1070 . So without approval of Wang Anshi, no proposal or plant to annex Dai Viet to Song Dynasty should been approved.
> 
> Two Song guan Shen Ki (Thẩm Khởi) and Liu Ji (Lưu Di) were ordered to mobilize inhabitants (punti people), produce weapons, build many boats and warships, training soldiers...etc to conquer Dai Viet.


Wang Anshi was expelled before Guo Kui began his counter invasion,quote the Chinese texts where Wang Anshi ordered the invasion of Dai Viet prior to the Vietnamese raids.


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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> Except that Yongzhou wasn't on the *border regions *and neither was it ruled by Tusi such as the Zhuang.
> 
> You would have a better argument if it was some city where the Zhuang held nominal sovereignty however Yongzhou was already under direct Song jurisdiction.
> 
> Wang Anshi was expelled before Guo Kui began his counter invasion,quote the Chinese texts where Wang Anshi ordered the invasion of Dai Viet prior to the Vietnamese raids.


can you show me any ancient maps of China with clear demarcation between China and other countries such as Vietnam?



bolo said:


> Viet dogs do not have your own writing system.


the ancestors of Vietnamese came from Taiwan. So why developing another writing system? you insult yourself by calling us dog. the native people in Vietnam back then came from the western Pacific, they had their own language but no script, writing system.


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## Grand Historian

Viet said:


> can you show me any ancient maps of China with clear demarcation between China and other countries such as Vietnam?


I don't have access to Song era maps,Yongzhou is today's Nanning which doesn't even border Vietnam.







Neither the Song or the Ly directly ruled western Guangxi they were instead controlled by Zhuang chieftains that held allegiance to whoever was stronger.

You don't seem to understand that the Ly dynasty never held power over Yongzhou,Qinzhou or Lianzhou prior to their invasion of the area.

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## Viet

Grand Historian said:


> I don't have access to Song era maps,Yongzhou is today's Nanning which doesn't even border Vietnam.
> 
> View attachment 62617
> 
> 
> Neither the Song or the Ly directly ruled western Guangxi they were instead controlled by Zhuang chieftains that held allegiance *to whoever was stronger*.
> 
> You don't seem to understand that the Ly dynasty never held power over Yongzhou,Qinzhou or Lianzhou prior to their invasion of the area.


that is it what I assume. Until the modern times (in the late of the Qing dynasty), China had no clear border demarcation. Whoever had the strength controlled the areas. the Ly might have wanted a bit of China, which was understandable, similar to the Song intention of expanding the territory at the expense of other Kingdoms.


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> Wang Anshi was expelled before Guo Kui began his counter invasion,quote the Chinese texts where Wang Anshi ordered the invasion of Dai Viet prior to the Vietnamese raids.



Check it yourselves. 

If you like to read in chinese you can read 大越史略 and *大越史記全書, *this our history books are written in Chinese. 

Wang Anshi is ambitious person who was reformer and premier minister in history of China. He was not innocent when plan to annex Dai Viet to China approved by Song Dynasty Emperor and big mobilization in military activities has been made by Chinese. It was not secret.

When he shouldn't involved directly in to this plan, Chinese Emperor Dynasty is responsible for that.

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## Rent

Map carved onto stone dated 1137. Each block represent 100 li.


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## Rent

dichoi said:


> Yes, Lý Thường Kiêt (李常傑; 1019–1105) was a Vietnamese general during the Lý Dynasty.. and he is regarded as a Vietnamese National hero.
> 
> He penned what is considered the first Vietnamese declaration of independence with his poem. It said:
> 
> * 南國山河*
> 南 國 山 河 南 帝 居
> 截 然 定 分 在 天 書
> 如 何 逆 虜 來 侵 犯
> 汝 等 行 看 取 敗 虛
> 
> Dịch thơ:
> *Sông núi nước Nam*
> Sông núi nước Nam, vua Nam ở
> Rành rành định phận tại sách trời
> Cớ sao lũ giặc sang xâm phạm?
> Chúng bay sẽ bị đánh tơi bời.
> 
> sorry, I can't translate into English,


@Viet got me reading up on Jennifer Chung.

Lý Thường Kiêt also wrote the below in the year 1075.

*伐宋露布文*

天生蒸民，君德則睦. 君民之道，務在養民. 今聞，宋主昏庸，不循聖范. 聽安石貪邪之計，作青苗助役之科. 使百姓膏脂涂地，而資其肥己之謀.

蓋萬民資賦於天，忽落那要离之毒. 在上固宜可憫，從前切莫須言.

本職奉國王命，指道北行. 欲清妖孽之波淘，有分土無分民之意. 要掃腥穢之污濁，歌堯天享舜日之佳期.

我今出兵，固將拯濟. 檄文到日，用廣聞知. 切自思量，莫懷震怖.

*Phạt Tống lộ bố văn*

Thiên sinh chưng dân, quân đức tắc mục. Quân dân chi đạo, vụ tại dưỡng dân. Kim văn, Tống chủ hôn dung, bất tuần thánh phạm. Thính An Thạch tham tà chi kế, tác "thanh miêu", "trợ dịch" chi khoa. Sử bách tính cao chi đồ địa, nhi tư kỳ phì kỷ chi mưu.

Cái vạn dân tư phú ư thiên, hốt lạc na yếu li chi độc. Tại thượng cố nghi khả mẫn, tòng tiền thiết mạc tu ngôn.

Bản chức phụng quốc vương mệnh, chỉ đạo Bắc hành. Dục thanh yêu nghiệt chi ba đào, hữu phân thổ vô phân dân chi ý; yếu tảo tinh uế chi ô trọc, ca Nghiêu thiên hưởng Thuấn nguyệt chi giai kỳ.

Ngã kim xuất binh, cố tương chủng tế. Hịch văn đáo nhật, dụng quảng văn tri. Thiết tự tư lường, mạc hoài chấn bố.

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## dichoi

Rent said:


> @Viet got me reading up on Jennifer Chung.
> 
> Lý Thường Kiêt also wrote the below in the year 1075.
> 
> *伐宋露布文*
> 
> 天生蒸民，君德則睦. 君民之道，務在養民. 今聞，宋主昏庸，不循聖范. 聽安石貪邪之計，作青苗助役之科. 使百姓膏脂涂地，而資其肥己之謀.
> 
> 蓋萬民資賦於天，忽落那要离之毒. 在上固宜可憫，從前切莫須言.
> 
> 本職奉國王命，指道北行. 欲清妖孽之波淘，有分土無分民之意. 要掃腥穢之污濁，歌堯天享舜日之佳期.
> 
> 我今出兵，固將拯濟. 檄文到日，用廣聞知. 切自思量，莫懷震怖.
> 
> *Phạt Tống lộ bố văn*
> 
> Thiên sinh chưng dân, quân đức tắc mục. Quân dân chi đạo, vụ tại dưỡng dân. Kim văn, Tống chủ hôn dung, bất tuần thánh phạm. Thính An Thạch tham tà chi kế, tác "thanh miêu", "trợ dịch" chi khoa. Sử bách tính cao chi đồ địa, nhi tư kỳ phì kỷ chi mưu.
> 
> Cái vạn dân tư phú ư thiên, hốt lạc na yếu li chi độc. Tại thượng cố nghi khả mẫn, tòng tiền thiết mạc tu ngôn.
> 
> Bản chức phụng quốc vương mệnh, chỉ đạo Bắc hành. Dục thanh yêu nghiệt chi ba đào, hữu phân thổ vô phân dân chi ý; yếu tảo tinh uế chi ô trọc, ca Nghiêu thiên hưởng Thuấn nguyệt chi giai kỳ.
> 
> Ngã kim xuất binh, cố tương chủng tế. Hịch văn đáo nhật, dụng quảng văn tri. Thiết tự tư lường, mạc hoài chấn bố.



Thanks bro, Its clear that : 

聽安石貪邪之計，作青苗助役之科. 使百姓膏脂涂地，而資其肥己之謀.

Thính An Thạch tham tà chi kế, tác "thanh miêu", "trợ dịch" chi khoa. Sử bách tính cao chi đồ địa, nhi tư kỳ phì kỷ chi mưu.

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## NiceGuy

Dont know its funny or not when applying our eating culture in Germany 

*'What's wrong with eating a cat?': Vietnamese man in Germany admits killing and barbecuing his neighbour's pet - but doesn't understand what's wrong with it *

*Tran Qui used a bunsen burner to roast the cat belonging to pensioner*
*Said he missed 'tastes of home' so cooked cat and ate it with fish sauce dip*
*Police are investigating him for breaching animal cruelty and hygiene laws*
*Locals have put cat curfew on pets due to fears Qui has scoffed 30 animals*
By ANNABEL GROSSMAN FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 09:07 GMT, 19 September 2014 | UPDATED: 13:48 GMT, 19 September 2014






Tran Qui used a bunsen burner to roast the cat called Mungo who belonged to a local pensioner

A Vietnamese man living in Germany has admitted killing and barbecuing his neighbour's cat - and was then bemused to find himself at the wrath of animal lovers.

'What's wrong with eating a cat?' said Tran Qui who used a bunsen burner to roast the cat called Mungo who belonged to a local pensioner.

*Now local pet owners have put a cat curfew on their furry friends leaving home in the Rhineland town of Andernach as it is feared Qui may have scoffed 30 cats which have gone missing in recent months.*

Police said they are investigating him for breaching both animal cruelty laws and hygiene regulations.

These specifically forbid consuming pets for food. If charged he could face up to three years behind bars.

A police spokesman said: 'He grilled the animal using a Bunsen burner in the courtyard of his block of flats. It is not uncommon in Asian cultures to eat cat meat. But it is not acceptable in Germany.'

*Outraged neighbour Christina Sarwatka, cuddling her moggy Billy, said: 'Thirty cats have gone missing recently around here. I cannot let Billy out anymore. I am scared to death he will be eaten.'*

Qui, a father of five, has lived in the town for two years and said he missed the 'tastes of home' - so he cooked the cat and ate it with a dip made of fish sauce, lime juice, coriander and garlic.

Despite an official ban on eating cats, restaurants in the Vietnam still offer the forbidden meat on their menus.


*More...*

Shocking moment teenagers throw a cat into a tumble dryer and film themselves laughing as the helpless creature is spun around at high speed
'They are like babies and need constant attention': Adoring pet owners pucker up to snog ferrets in a bizarre kissing competition in Russia
In fact, even in the Southeast Asian nation cat owners fear for their animals’ safety as the consumption of feline meat appears to be on the rise.

A snack of cat meat - colloquially known as 'little tiger' - is typically served with beer and eaten at the beginning of the lunar month.

Cats being sold for meat typically fetch from $50 to $70, depending on the size, which is a hefty sum for many in the impoverished nation.

While cat traders claim to breed the animals legitimately, there are hardly any regulations in place to verify this, so pet owners feat that their beloved moggies will be snatched to keep up with demand.





Feline meat is a delicacy in Vietnam. This picture shows a cook preparing a dish with cat meat at a restaurant in the country's capital Hanoi. The enduring popularity of 'little tiger' as a snack to accompany a beer in Vietnam means that cat owners live in constant fear of animal snatchers, despite an official ban
Vietnamese man in Germany admits killing and eating his neighbour's pet | Daily Mail Online


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## kolinsky

NiceGuy said:


> Dont know its funny or not when applying our eating culture in Germany
> 
> *'What's wrong with eating a cat?': Vietnamese man in Germany admits killing and barbecuing his neighbour's pet - but doesn't understand what's wrong with it *
> 
> *Tran Qui used a bunsen burner to roast the cat belonging to pensioner*
> *Said he missed 'tastes of home' so cooked cat and ate it with fish sauce dip*
> *Police are investigating him for breaching animal cruelty and hygiene laws*
> *Locals have put cat curfew on pets due to fears Qui has scoffed 30 animals*
> By ANNABEL GROSSMAN FOR MAILONLINE
> 
> PUBLISHED: 09:07 GMT, 19 September 2014 | UPDATED: 13:48 GMT, 19 September 2014
> 
> 
> View attachment 66231
> 
> Tran Qui used a bunsen burner to roast the cat called Mungo who belonged to a local pensioner
> 
> A Vietnamese man living in Germany has admitted killing and barbecuing his neighbour's cat - and was then bemused to find himself at the wrath of animal lovers.
> 
> 'What's wrong with eating a cat?' said Tran Qui who used a bunsen burner to roast the cat called Mungo who belonged to a local pensioner.
> 
> *Now local pet owners have put a cat curfew on their furry friends leaving home in the Rhineland town of Andernach as it is feared Qui may have scoffed 30 cats which have gone missing in recent months.*
> 
> Police said they are investigating him for breaching both animal cruelty laws and hygiene regulations.
> 
> These specifically forbid consuming pets for food. If charged he could face up to three years behind bars.
> 
> A police spokesman said: 'He grilled the animal using a Bunsen burner in the courtyard of his block of flats. It is not uncommon in Asian cultures to eat cat meat. But it is not acceptable in Germany.'
> 
> *Outraged neighbour Christina Sarwatka, cuddling her moggy Billy, said: 'Thirty cats have gone missing recently around here. I cannot let Billy out anymore. I am scared to death he will be eaten.'*
> 
> Qui, a father of five, has lived in the town for two years and said he missed the 'tastes of home' - so he cooked the cat and ate it with a dip made of fish sauce, lime juice, coriander and garlic.
> 
> Despite an official ban on eating cats, restaurants in the Vietnam still offer the forbidden meat on their menus.
> 
> 
> *More...*
> 
> Shocking moment teenagers throw a cat into a tumble dryer and film themselves laughing as the helpless creature is spun around at high speed
> 'They are like babies and need constant attention': Adoring pet owners pucker up to snog ferrets in a bizarre kissing competition in Russia
> In fact, even in the Southeast Asian nation cat owners fear for their animals’ safety as the consumption of feline meat appears to be on the rise.
> 
> A snack of cat meat - colloquially known as 'little tiger' - is typically served with beer and eaten at the beginning of the lunar month.
> 
> Cats being sold for meat typically fetch from $50 to $70, depending on the size, which is a hefty sum for many in the impoverished nation.
> 
> While cat traders claim to breed the animals legitimately, there are hardly any regulations in place to verify this, so pet owners feat that their beloved moggies will be snatched to keep up with demand.
> 
> View attachment 66232
> 
> Feline meat is a delicacy in Vietnam. This picture shows a cook preparing a dish with cat meat at a restaurant in the country's capital Hanoi. The enduring popularity of 'little tiger' as a snack to accompany a beer in Vietnam means that cat owners live in constant fear of animal snatchers, despite an official ban
> Vietnamese man in Germany admits killing and eating his neighbour's pet | Daily Mail Online


Why vietnamese alway cook on the ground?


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## NiceGuy

kolinsky said:


> Why vietnamese alway cook on the ground?


Coz we like grilling meat, fish with hay. its so tasty.

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## kolinsky

NiceGuy said:


> Coz we like grilling meat, fish with hay. its so tasty.
> 
> View attachment 66332
> 
> 
> View attachment 66333


but....you guys still can cook on the table....


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## NiceGuy

kolinsky said:


> but....you guys still can cook on the table....


Yeah, but lots of VNese love grilling meat, fish wt hay coz it has a special taste, and it only can grill on the ground.


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## kolinsky

NiceGuy said:


> Yeah, but lots of VNese love grilling meat, fish wt hay coz it has a special taste, and it only can grill on the ground.


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## xesy

kolinsky said:


> Why vietnamese alway cook on the ground?


Not always. You see, before water taps and stuff got popular in VN, each family had its own well. Also VNese did not have the high fire place to cook (like Chinese mud fire place) so we prepared food on the ground, cooked it on the ground and eat it on the ground. Only families with better condition could afford eating on the table (we don't eat on the bed). Even now with water taps and high kitchen, some VNese still prefer preparing food on the ground.

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## NiceGuy

kolinsky said:


>


Sit and Eating on the ground could be our culture, too

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## Rechoice

I like Cá Kho Tộ.

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## Rent

Rechoice said:


> I like Cá Kho Tộ.
> 
> View attachment 67077
> 
> 
> View attachment 67078
> 
> 
> View attachment 67102
> 
> 
> View attachment 67092



Cá kho tộ eaten with canh chua is the best !!! Là tuyệt vời !!!

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## Viet

NiceGuy said:


> Sit and Eating on the ground could be our culture, too
> View attachment 67017


I like it

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

My family used to eat together on the dining table. That ended nearly 2 decades ago, now most people eat in front of computer or t.v screens.

Eating on the floor without a small table isnt reccomended, its just too close to the ground and peoples feet/shoes.


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## NiceGuy

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> My family used to eat together on the dining table. That ended nearly 2 decades ago, now most people eat in front of computer or t.v screens.
> 
> Eating on the floor without a small table isnt reccomended, its just too close to the ground and peoples feet/shoes.


Right, its not so clean, but its convenient when u need to eat fast, or having party wt a large group when u dont prepare enough table for all/

U can use some mats to sit on instead of big & heavy table 






Nice old pic abt eating on the ground of VNese, they also used mat to sit on.

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## Viet

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> My family used to eat together on the dining table. That ended nearly 2 decades ago, now most people eat in front of computer or t.v screens.
> 
> Eating on the floor without a small table isnt reccomended, its just too close to the ground and peoples feet/shoes.


eating on the floor is still very common in vietnam. it is a part of our tradition. the people like it. though, I admit, it is very uncomfortable, and after some 30 min, your legs are nearly blood empty

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## Aepsilons

Viet said:


> eating on the floor is still very common in vietnam. it is a part of our tradition. the people like it. though, I admit, it is very uncomfortable, and after some 30 min, your legs are nearly blood empty
> 
> View attachment 67601
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 67602
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 67603




It's very interesting trait! I notice that Thai people also do this especially in the rural areas. Do Vietnamese eat with chopsticks or do they use their fingers to eat?

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> Check it yourselves.
> 
> If you like to read in chinese you can read 大越史略 and *大越史記全書, *this our history books are written in Chinese.
> 
> Wang Anshi is ambitious person who was reformer and premier minister in history of China. He was not innocent when plan to annex Dai Viet to China approved by Song Dynasty Emperor and big mobilization in military activities has been made by Chinese. It was not secret.
> 
> When he shouldn't involved directly in to this plan, Chinese Emperor Dynasty is responsible for that.


I asked for sources written by the Chinese not Vietnamese ones.

Show me the the petitions he sent to the Song emperor to invade Dai Viet.


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## Rent

Hi Nihonjin-San,

I think this is an Asian trait. Not just in Southeast Asia. We eat using chopsticks, except for finger food.

Picture of Japanese family eating on floor.





It's spreading towards the West.








Nihonjin1051 said:


> It's very interesting trait! I notice that Thai people also do this especially in the rural areas. Do Vietnamese eat with chopsticks or do they use their fingers to eat?

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## StarCraft_ZT

Viet said:


> eating on the floor is still very common in vietnam. it is a part of our tradition. the people like it. though, I admit, it is very uncomfortable, and after some 30 min, your legs are nearly blood empty
> 
> View attachment 67601
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 67602
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 67603


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## EastSea

in the past.











and now.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> in the past.
> 
> View attachment 68561
> 
> 
> View attachment 68562
> 
> 
> and now.
> 
> View attachment 68563



Because China is your role model.


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## Rechoice

how our kids look at.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Because China is your role model.



It is disputed between Han and Viet, Wu Yue has nothing to do here, bro.

Vietnamese.





Chinese.





Han and Viet, we are different from ancient time and up to now, bro.

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## ChineseTiger1986

EastSea said:


> It is disputed between Han and Viet, Wu Yue has nothing to do here, bro.



Han is your teacher, and you have to show some respect to your teacher anyway.

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## EastSea

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Han is your teacher, and you have to show some respect to your teacher anyway.



Han chinese has been copied every thing from her neighbors from ancient time, after that claimed that its invented by herself.

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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> Han chinese has been copied every thing from her neighbors from ancient time, after that claimed that its invented by herself.






ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Han is your teacher, and you have to show some respect to your teacher anyway.


The incorrigible EastSea is just another culture/history thief.

But I suppose that's what happens to jealous people who make up a glorious past in an attempt to whitewash the truth.

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## terranMarine

Grand Historian said:


> The incorrigible EastSea is just another culture/history thief.
> 
> But I suppose that's what happens to jealous people who make up a glorious past in an attempt to whitewash the truth.



I wonder how many people would buy that crap anyway, chopsticks, traditional clothes, writing system, architecture and other inventions originated from jungle living creatures. All Chinese had to do was steal it from them

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## Rent

To find the answer to your question. I propose we analyze this all together.

Wang Anahi was relieved of his duty in 1074 and move to Jiangning, modern day Nanjing as a governor. He returned in 1075 for a second term as prime minister of Song and stepped down again in 1076.

His reforms fall into three categories. Education, Economics, and most famous is his Military reform.

Let's analyze Baojia, his military reforms. Wang Anshi proposed to the Song Emperor to train farmers into soldiers and provide them with weapons, necessary equipments including uniforms. One male from each household that have two males bodies in their household must enlist. Five hundred household would form a regimental unit of 500 men. These farmers would act as police during peaceful times and as soldier during time of war. This reform continues until the fall of Qing.

With his new reforms, Song military increased in size. Combined with his other unfavorable reforms as well as government loans to poor farmers, which a lot of farmers took advantage of, eventually bankrupted the Song's government and force them into war with their neighbors to make up lost revenue.

Like any modern employer, Song Emperor can't afford to pay the salaries of his large employment force without putting them to work.

@dichoi , @Grand Historian and @Viet. Please let me know your thoughts on this.



Grand Historian said:


> I asked for sources written by the Chinese not Vietnamese ones.
> 
> Show me the the petitions he sent to the Song emperor to invade Dai Viet.

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## EastSea

terranMarine said:


> I wonder how many people would buy that crap anyway, chopsticks, traditional clothes, writing system, architecture and other inventions originated from jungle living creatures. All Chinese had to do was steal it from them



I said to you many time that Han Chinese is originally living first in Zhongyuan in ancient time, they lived in cave house, cared livestock, they eat dumpling with hands. 

Han Chinese invaded to south, so they learnt wet rice planting technic form Bai Yue and eating rice from then. Chopsticks invented by Bai Yue, where is bamboo tree available.

writing characters of Lou Yue people is found recently in Guangxi, which dated back 4,000 year, more early than Han Zi. Architecture of Forbiden City in Peking is made by Vietnamese architect Nguen An, base on tradition floor house of Bai Yue people in southern.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> To find the answer to your question. I propose we analyze this all together.
> 
> Wang Anahi was relieved of his duty in 1074 and move to Jiangning, modern day Nanjing as a governor. He returned in 1075 for a second term as prime minister of Song and stepped down again in 1076.
> 
> His reforms fall into three categories. Education, Economics, and most famous is his Military reform.
> 
> Let's analyze Baojia, his military reforms. Wang Anshi proposed to the Song Emperor to train farmers into soldiers and provide them with weapons, necessary equipments including uniforms. One male from each household that have two males bodies in their household must enlist. Five hundred household would form a regimental unit of 500 men. These farmers would act as police during peaceful times and as soldier during time of war. This reform continues until the fall of Qing.
> 
> With his new reforms, Song military increased in size. Combined with his other unfavorable reforms as well as government loans to poor farmers, which a lot of farmers took advantage of, eventually bankrupted the Song's government and force them into war with their neighbors to make up lost revenue.
> 
> Like any modern employer, Song Emperor can't afford to pay the salaries of his large employment force without putting them to work.
> 
> @dichoi , @Grand Historian and @Viet. Please let me know your thoughts on this.


There are multiple issues with his reforms neither of which bankrupted the Song dynasty.

The supply master conscription which was intended to force the wealthy landed gentry to pay back their share only ended up in decrease in productivity due to poorer families not willing reach the wealth necessary to be counted amongst the wealthiest(who were the only eligible ones for this position).

Which ended up with land owners needing less peasants therefore they became bandits or vagrants.

The service exemption policy was widely despised as the fee was taken by those families that were eligible as well as taxing households who don't have males available for draft therefore Buddhists,Taoists as well as ranked governmental officials became enemies of the reformist faction.

Mercantile reform attempted to break up monopolies as well as lower the power of mercantile guilds which also resulted in abuse by government officials,rise in the prices of basic goods as well as earning another enemy.

Baojia was formed to suppress banditry,criminals as well as anti Song religious cults,their formation wasn't intended for foreign invasions or invasions of other territories,the only exception being Northern provinces. Wang Anshi intended for the Baojia system to completely replace the Song mercenary army. The Baojia system was also intended to save money not spend it as peasants were cheaper than mercenaries by Wang Anshi's estimate the Song government would save 80-90%.

Basically the Baojia system was a carrot and stick approach as Baojia supervisors were paid quite handsomely.

The rural credit system failed because the reformers couldn't figure out whether to maximize social mobility or government revenue therefore theoretically anyone who can pay back the loan(divided into different grades of families) can receive them.

This resulted in abuse such as targeting the rich for maximum profits therefore diminishing the reformers arguments that they are to help the peasantry,and emergency granaries were abused by corrupt officials to generate more loans.

Under Wang Anshi's tenure the the government profited immensely from the rural credit,service exemptions as well as state monopolization ie in 1076 there was a surplus of 27.7 million taels of cash and another 22.2 million stock of silk bolts and other miscellaneous items.

This surplus was the lifeblood of the disastrous Song invasions of the Tanguts.

Vietnamese claims that Wang Anshi is war mongering are also untrue,Song Shenzong wanted to use Song armies to attack the Tanguts and the Khitans and Wang Anshi was the one to stop him,and Song Shenzong proceeded to invade the Tanguts to no avail.

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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> I said to you many time that Han Chinese is originally living first in Zhongyuan in ancient time, they lived in cave house, cared livestock, they eat dumpling with hands.
> 
> Han Chinese invaded to south, so they learnt wet rice planting technic form Bai Yue and eating rice from then. Chopsticks invented by Bai Yue, where is bamboo tree available.
> 
> writing characters of Lou Yue people is found recently in Guangxi, which dated back 4,000 year, more early than Han Zi. Architecture of Forbiden City in Peking is made by Vietnamese architect Nguen An, base on tradition floor house of Bai Yue people in southern.


Yawn,repeating the same debunked lies,do you have no shame?

1.You don't seem to realize the inhabitants of southern China(who domesticated rice) 8,200-13,500 years ago were Australoids/Negroids which neither the Baiyue or Han are descended from.

2.The earliest discovered chopsticks were from the Shang while you can't prove that the Baiyue even used them.

3.Oracle bone script didn't arrive out of nowhere neolithic China already had lexicons resembling scripts,furthermore the oracle bone script also are written in Sinitic not Austro Asiatic or Tai Kadai further diminishing your claim.

Even if there's a gap from neolithic China to Shang,the Shang were of northeastern and central Chinese stock not Baiyue.

Notice how the tadpole script was also discovered in the vicinity which was used by Tai Kadai speakers.

4.Forbidden City was built by more than Nguyen An,you must be brain dead if you think the archaeological style resembled Baiyue architecture,I suppose stilt houses with thatch roofs comprise the Forbidden City?

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## EastSea

Grand Historian said:


> Yawn,repeating the same debunked lies,do you have no shame?
> 
> 1.You don't seem to realize the inhabitants of southern China(who domesticated rice) 8,200-13,500 years ago were Australoids/Negroids which neither the Baiyue or Han are descended from.
> 
> 2.The earliest discovered chopsticks were from the Shang while you can't prove that the Baiyue even used them.
> 
> 3.Oracle bone script didn't arrive out of nowhere neolithic China already had lexicons resembling scripts,furthermore the oracle bone script also are written in Sinitic not Austro Asiatic or Tai Kadai further diminishing your claim.
> 
> Even if there's a gap from neolithic China to Shang,the Shang were of northeastern and central Chinese stock not Baiyue.
> 
> Notice how the tadpole script was also discovered in the vicinity which was used by Tai Kadai speakers.
> 
> 4.Forbidden City was built by more than Nguyen An,you must be brain dead if you think the archaeological style resembled Baiyue architecture,I suppose stilt houses with thatch roofs comprise the Forbidden City?



I said I ignore you. Don't jump in my debate with other Chinese member. Don't cry to mod to ban me gain.


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## Grand Historian

EastSea said:


> I said I ignore you. Don't jump in my debate with other Chinese member. Don't cry to mod to ban me gain.


You can't debate all you do is spew the same lies over and over again.


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## Rent

Don't be so arrogant and naive Cherry Picker.

I would say that Qin standardized the characters of writing used by Viet and Han at the period, since both were under its rule.

Base on current archeological findings, Son Vi Culture and Bac Son Culture are the originator of working tools, while Phung Nguyen Culture kick started the Bronze Age in Asia. Dong Son Culture is credited with originating the process of rice cultivation, turning the Ma River and Red River delta area into a massive rice-growing region and they were the first to domesticate animals such as buffaloes, pigs and dogs.

Currently, these cultures are considered as the basis of the general civilization of the region that spread there knowledge throughout Asia.

Recent study published in 2012 by Nature show genetic evidences of domesticated rice originating from a single sources in the middle area of Pearl River valley of what is now Southern China. Although, this do not match archeological finding in Yangtze valley in China. Both findings are subjective.

A map of rice genome variation reveals the origin of cultivated rice : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

Without invention of working tools, how can you make your chopsticks? Without the invention of bronze smelting and casting of metal ores by Phung Nguyen Culture of Vietnam, the Shang would not know how to smelt and cast metals ores into bronze to make their bronze chopsticks.

Everyone should wait for more recent studies and archeological findings before we pass our judgements.


terranMarine said:


> I wonder how many people would buy that crap anyway, chopsticks, traditional clothes, writing system, architecture and other inventions originated from jungle living creatures. All Chinese had to do was steal it from them

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> Don't be so arrogant and naive Cherry Picker.
> 
> I would say that Qin standardized the characters of writing used by Viet and Han at the period, since both were under its rule.
> 
> Base on current archeological findings, Son Vi Culture and Bac Son Culture are the originator of working tools, while Phung Nguyen Culture kick started the Bronze Age in Asia. Dong Son Culture is credited with originating the process of rice cultivation, turning the Ma River and Red River delta area into a massive rice-growing region and they were the first to domesticate animals such as buffaloes, pigs and dogs.
> 
> Currently, these cultures are considered as the basis of the general civilization of the region that spread there knowledge throughout Asia.
> 
> Recent study published in 2012 by Nature show genetic evidences of domesticated rice originating from a single sources in the middle area of Pearl River valley of what is now Southern China. Although, this do not match archeological finding in Yangtze valley in China. Both findings are subjective.
> 
> A map of rice genome variation reveals the origin of cultivated rice : Nature : Nature Publishing Group
> 
> Without invention of working tools, how can you make your chopsticks? Without the invention of bronze smelting and casting of metal ores by Phung Nguyen Culture of Vietnam, the Shang would not know how to smelt and cast metals ores into bronze to make their bronze chopsticks.
> 
> Everyone should wait for more recent studies and archeological findings before we pass our judgements.


If you want to include non Chinese/Vietnamese than Homo Erectus already had crude tools neither Son Vi or Bac Son is Mongoloid,Majiayao had bronze smelting predating Phung Nguyen,the Dong Son wasn't the first to cultivate rice other sites such as Hemudu predate it.

Either way you have nothing to show that Vietnamese bronzes or tools reached Northern China.


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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> There are multiple issues with his reforms neither of which bankrupted the Song dynasty.
> 
> The supply master conscription which was intended to force the wealthy landed gentry to pay back their share only ended up in decrease in productivity due to poorer families not willing reach the wealth necessary to be counted amongst the wealthiest(who were the only eligible ones for this position).
> 
> Which ended up with land owners needing less peasants therefore they became bandits or vagrants.
> 
> The service exemption policy was widely despised as the fee was taken by those families that were eligible as well as taxing households who don't have males available for draft therefore Buddhists,Taoists as well as ranked governmental officials became enemies of the reformist faction.
> 
> Mercantile reform attempted to break up monopolies as well as lower the power of mercantile guilds which also resulted in abuse by government officials,rise in the prices of basic goods as well as earning another enemy.
> 
> Baojia was formed to suppress banditry,criminals as well as anti Song religious cults,their formation wasn't intended for foreign invasions or invasions of other territories,the only exception being Northern provinces. Wang Anshi intended for the Baojia system to completely replace the Song mercenary army. The Baojia system was also intended to save money not spend it as peasants were cheaper than mercenaries by Wang Anshi's estimate the Song government would save 80-90%.
> 
> Basically the Baojia system was a carrot and stick approach as Baojia supervisors were paid quite handsomely.
> 
> The rural credit system failed because the reformers couldn't figure out whether to maximize social mobility or government revenue therefore theoretically anyone who can pay back the loan(divided into different grades of families) can receive them.
> 
> This resulted in abuse such as targeting the rich for maximum profits therefore diminishing the reformers arguments that they are to help the peasantry,and emergency granaries were abused by corrupt officials to generate more loans.
> 
> Under Wang Anshi's tenure the the government profited immensely from the rural credit,service exemptions as well as state monopolization ie in 1076 there was a surplus of 27.7 million taels of cash and another 22.2 million stock of silk bolts and other miscellaneous items.
> 
> This surplus was the lifeblood of the disastrous Song invasions of the Tanguts.
> 
> Vietnamese claims that Wang Anshi is war mongering are also untrue,Song Shenzong wanted to use Song armies to attack the Tanguts and the Khitans and Wang Anshi was the one to stop him,and Song Shenzong proceeded to invade the Tanguts to no avail.



From 伐宋露布文, we can see the name Anshi. This was written in 1075 by Lý Thường Kiệt.

天生蒸民, 君德則睦. 君民之道，務在養民. 今聞, 宋主昏庸, 不循聖范. 聽*安石*貪邪之計, 作青苗助役之科. 使百姓膏脂涂地, 而資其肥己之謀.

I still believe that Wang Anshi's impulsive political reforms caused the Northern Song to collapse. Spending so much money within a short period of time.

Song did not attack Tangut until 1081. Wang Anshi stepped down from his second term after 1075.

It is a pity that Tangut historical and written records were all destroyed after Genghis Khan took over.


Grand Historian said:


> If you want to include non Chinese/Vietnamese than Homo Erectus already had crude tools neither Son Vi or Bac Son is Mongoloid,Majiayao had bronze smelting predating Phung Nguyen,the Dong Son wasn't the first to cultivate rice other sites such as Hemudu predate it.
> 
> Either way you have nothing to show that Vietnamese bronzes or tools reached Northern China.



Hemudu Culture is what I have mentioned as the archeological finding in Yangtze Valley. However, genetic evidence of domesticated rice do not agree. It points to Pearl River Valley.

There are a lot of painted potteries discovered in Majiayao sites (in Eastern Qinghai). Only one small incomplete tin-bronze knife was ever found in Jiangjiaping, suggesting it was a traded item.

Qijia Culture (in Qinghai) found 22 small copper objects and 4 bronze objects scattered from 8 locations. This also suggested they were traded items.

Siwa Culture (Gansu) found only 33 small copper items and 4 bronze tools from 6 locations. This also suggested trades.

There is the Gobi desert to the northwest of the central plain and Takla Makan desert to the far West of the central plain.

There are no copper and bronze objects discovered from neolithic cultures sites north of the central plain. However, as archeologist digs further and further south, copper and bronze working tools, jewelries, utensils, axes, and knives were found in abundance. This is evidence that the source of trade is from Southeast Asia.

China Bronze Age started with the Shang.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> From 伐宋露布文, we can see the name Anshi. This was written in 1075 by Lý Thường Kiệt.
> 
> 天生蒸民, 君德則睦. 君民之道，務在養民. 今聞, 宋主昏庸, 不循聖范. 聽*安石*貪邪之計, 作青苗助役之科. 使百姓膏脂涂地, 而資其肥己之謀.
> 
> I still believe that Wang Anshi's impulsive political reforms caused the Northern Song to collapse. Spending so much money within a short period of time.
> 
> Song did not attack Tangut until 1081. Wang Anshi stepped down from his second term after 1075.
> 
> It is a pity that Tangut historical and written records were all destroyed after Genghis Khan took over.


Where are the Song sources that Wang Anshi wanted to invade Dai Viet prior to a Vietnamese incursion in 1075?

It doesn't matter what you believe in,Wang Anshi's political reforms caused a surplus in cash and other goods so conflating his reforms with the collapse of Northern Song is ludicrous. 

You still haven't addressed he was anti war and Shenzong didn't die until 1085.

Your pet theory that the Baojia system or any other reform caused the Song to go bankrupt has already been debunked.



Rent said:


> Hemudu Culture is what I have mentioned as the archeological finding in Yangtze Valley. However, genetic evidence of domesticated rice do not agree. It points to Pearl River Valley.
> 
> There are a lot of painted potteries discovered in Majiayao sites (in Eastern Qinghai). Only one small incomplete tin-bronze knife was ever found in Jiangjiaping, suggesting it was a traded item.
> 
> Qijia Culture (in Qinghai) found 22 small copper objects and 4 bronze objects scattered from 8 locations. This also suggested they were traded items.
> 
> Siwa Culture (Gansu) found only 33 small copper items and 4 bronze tools from 6 locations. This also suggested trades.
> 
> There is the Gobi desert to the northwest of the central plain and Takla Makan desert to the far West of the central plain.
> 
> There are no copper and bronze objects discovered from neolithic cultures sites north of the central plain. However, as archeologist digs further and further south, copper and bronze working tools, jewelries, utensils, axes, and knives were found in abundance. This is evidence that the source of trade is from Southeast Asia.
> 
> China Bronze Age started with the Shang.


How is the Pearl River Valley equivalent to the Dong Son culture,the earliest domestication date would indicate that the population would be composed of Australoids/Negroids therefore predating Han or Baiyue.

Some claim that the Afanasievo culture made contact with neolithic China however most Sinologists claim that bronze working is indigenous. 

The Erlitou culture already manufactured taotie motifs.wine vessels and cauldrons which indicates that bronze working predates the Shang.

Show me papers or books that indicate bronze work isn't indigenous to Norhtern China.

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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> Where are the Song sources that Wang Anshi wanted to invade Dai Viet prior to a Vietnamese incursion in 1075?
> 
> It doesn't matter what you believe in,Wang Anshi's political reforms caused a surplus in cash and other goods so conflating his reforms with the collapse of Northern Song is ludicrous.
> 
> You still haven't addressed he was anti war and Shenzong didn't die until 1085.
> 
> Your pet theory that the Baojia system or any other reform caused the Song to go bankrupt has already been debunked.



Wang Anshi's reforms may have saved a lot of money to allow Song to build a large army, bigger than its predecessor. However, Song's large bureaucracy was unable to adjust to its new policies. With constant, unnecessary campaign to annex Dai Viet in 1075 which lasted until 1077, follow by the invasion of Tangut, it destroyed much of their regular well trained army force. The cost of war was more than what Song Shenzong have to spend. This nearly bankrupted Northern Song causing it to grow weaker.

The military reforms allowed low ranking civilians of the scholar-gentry to run the army made up of ill-trained militias, plus training of military horses were left in the care and responsibility of farmers. By 1126, Song army was weakened to extent. This left the dynasty vulnerable to nomadic invasion on the frontiers. Subsequently forcing Song Prince to flee south across the Yangtze River to Hongzhou to established Southern Song.



Grand Historian said:


> How is the Pearl River Valley equivalent to the Dong Son culture,the earliest domestication date would indicate that the population would be composed of Australoids/Negroids therefore predating Han or Baiyue.
> 
> Some claim that the Afanasievo culture made contact with neolithic China however most Sinologists claim that bronze working is indigenous.
> 
> The Erlitou culture already manufactured taotie motifs.wine vessels and cauldrons which indicates that bronze working predates the Shang.
> 
> Show me papers or books that indicate bronze work isn't indigenous to Norhtern China.


Gobi desert and Takla Makan desert prevented Afanasievo culture from crossing to the central plain.

Camels were introduce to China during Tang Dynasty.

Erlitou culture is Shang and Zhou Dynasty.

There are many published articles and books regarding Neolithic Bronze Age. Below are two sources. You may Google them for yourself.

The Archaeology of Ancient China (4th edition), by K.C. Chang (Yale, 1987).

NEOLITHIC CHINA: BEFORE THE SHANG DYNASTY; Indiana university


To prove who invited what first does not matter much to most people. We are all living in the same age with the same technology readily available. The only difference between households, are cost of living, family, friends, liberty, and job security. These are what matters to all people. One can only achieve this living conditions in a free government with the ability to check and sustain the balance of power between the people and itself.

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## Edison Chen

EastSea said:


> I said to you many time that Han Chinese is originally living first in Zhongyuan in ancient time, they lived in cave house, cared livestock, they eat dumpling with hands.
> 
> Han Chinese invaded to south, so they learnt wet rice planting technic form Bai Yue and eating rice from then. Chopsticks invented by Bai Yue, where is bamboo tree available.
> 
> writing characters of Lou Yue people is found recently in Guangxi, which dated back 4,000 year, more early than Han Zi. Architecture of Forbiden City in Peking is made by Vietnamese architect Nguen An, base on tradition floor house of Bai Yue people in southern.



who said chopsticks were only made of bamboo and invented by bai yue? any evidence? you are mad!!


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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> I asked for sources written by the Chinese not Vietnamese ones.
> 
> Show me the the petitions he sent to the Song emperor to invade Dai Viet.



your request is funny.

In history of Chine, historian were killed when he did not modified the statement following favor of Emperor.

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## Grand Historian

dichoi said:


> your request is funny.
> 
> In history of Chine, historian were killed when he did not modified the statement following favor of Emperor.


What a joke,if you can't find it just say so instead of making excuses.


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## Jlaw

Edison Chen said:


> who said chopsticks were only made of bamboo and invented by bai yue? any evidence? you are mad!!


Vietnamese created the world you know? The viet god Dai Bin (大便) created all. The chosen people, dai Viet, were made with his first stool.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> Wang Anshi's reforms may have saved a lot of money to allow Song to build a large army, bigger than its predecessor. However, Song's large bureaucracy was unable to adjust to its new policies. With constant, unnecessary campaign to annex Dai Viet in 1075 which lasted until 1077, follow by the invasion of Tangut, it destroyed much of their regular well trained army force. The cost of war was more than what Song Shenzong have to spend. This nearly bankrupted Northern Song causing it to grow weaker.
> 
> The military reforms allowed low ranking civilians of the scholar-gentry to run the army made up of ill-trained militias, plus training of military horses were left in the care and responsibility of farmers. By 1126, Song army was weakened to extent. This left the dynasty vulnerable to nomadic invasion on the frontiers. Subsequently forcing Song Prince to flee south across the Yangtze River to Hongzhou to established Southern Song.


You don't seem top realize you contradict yourself the reforms themselves are not the problems its the emperor in charge who ordered the invasion of Dai Viet and XiXia.

You argued that the Song was bankrupt from the Baojia system when in fact the policies resulted in a surplus,which emboldened Song Shenzong to preform military actions against his enemies.

Northern Song didn't fall because of the Baojia system it fell because a combination of factors including:

1. Factional strife ie Cai Qing purging officials that didn't agree with him as well as monopolizing power,

3.Reckless interpretation of the new reforms ie Cai Qing went farther than any of the previous reformers effectively turning the system into extortion and strangling merchants. However this cash was mainly diverted into the lining the pockets of the corrupt government officials as well as the Imperial family. However social welfare and training the extended Zhao clan also sapped the treasury.

4.Song Huizong was too steeped in superstition and proceeded to build expensive projects to rectify the balance of the universe therefore causing rebellions as well as wasting troops to guard his treasure fleets. Song Huizong was also a megalomaniac in an effort to show his superiority he gave state cash to Taoist temples further diluting the funds.

5.The Baojia troops were busy fighting internal wars ie Fang La rebellions as well as the Khitans and Jurchens,the issue isn't about troops quality but the councilors and generals who commanded them.

Even thought the invasions against XiXia costed astronomical amounts of money,the troops succeeded in repelling and for a while held XiXia by its throat. The issue was that the generals had no goal just throwing resources and men away while a incompetent eunuch resulted in 200,000 imperial Song troops dying.

Even though Fang La and Song Jiang's rebellions were crushed the court did the exact same thing they were doing before extracting resources and overtaxing peasants.

The issue with the Jurchens is that the Song army veterans were squandered in pacifying rebellions as well as the fruitless invasion of XiXia.



Rent said:


> Gobi desert and Takla Makan desert prevented Afanasievo culture from crossing to the central plain.
> 
> Camels were introduce to China during Tang Dynasty.
> 
> Erlitou culture is Shang and Zhou Dynasty.
> 
> There are many published articles and books regarding Neolithic Bronze Age. Below are two sources. You may Google them for yourself.
> 
> The Archaeology of Ancient China (4th edition), by K.C. Chang (Yale, 1987).
> 
> NEOLITHIC CHINA: BEFORE THE SHANG DYNASTY; Indiana university
> 
> 
> To prove who invited what first does not matter much to most people. We are all living in the same age with the same technology readily available. The only difference between households, are cost of living, family, friends, liberty, and job security. These are what matters to all people. One can only achieve this living conditions in a free government with the ability to check and sustain the balance of power between the people and itself.


No ,the Shang definitely had contact with the Afanasievo cultures,sacrificial victims included Caucasoid skulls as well as the introduction of chariots and horses.

Erlitou =/= Shang or the Zhou,neither Erlitou or Erligang left behind traces of writing so how can they be equivalent to the Shang or the Zhou?

NEOLITHIC CHINA: BEFORE THE SHANG DYNASTY doesn't say where the bronze originates.

The Shang colonized Wancheng as well as Panlongcheng therefore the bronzes there resemble Shang ones,however other sites such as Sanxingdui exhibit a completely different tradition because the Shang did not interact with them.

If you're going to argue that Shang bronzes originated from the south than you have to explain why Shang didn't have southern bronzes such as bells.

Wucheng and Shang:A New History of a Bronze Age Civilization in Southern China by Zhang Liangren

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## dichoi

Grand Historian said:


> What a joke,if you can't find it just say so instead of making excuses.



you didn't read your history books.



Jlaw said:


> Vietnamese created the world you know? The viet god Dai Bin (大便) created all. The chosen people, dai Viet, were made with his first stool.



in your head is fully with 粪便.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Chinese soldiers wow what great Discipline , just look at the straight line and formation, Vietnamese soldiers don't even have their caps on their head worn right







Chinese girl vs Viet girl ... Chinese girl is way more cuter








I have seen many Vietnamese ladies and they don't look like the girl you posted, I think that girl was also a model of some sort, normally girls from Vietnam don't look like that


Chinese language , and the way its spoken appears very polite specially the songs very distinct way to communicate , I have heard some Hong Kong folks speak and their way of talking is quite different then Chinese speakers on TV


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## NiceGuy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Chinese soldiers wow what great Discipline , just look at the straight line and formation, Vietnamese soldiers don't even have their caps on their head worn right
> 
> View attachment 73126
> 
> 
> Chinese girl vs Viet girl ... Chinese girl is way more cuter
> 
> 
> View attachment 73127
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen many Vietnamese ladies and they don't look like the girl you posted, I think that girl was also a model of some sort, normally girls from Vietnam don't look like that
> 
> 
> Chinese language , and the way its spoken appears very polite specially the songs very distinct way to communicate , I have heard some Hong Kong folks speak and their way of talking is quite different then Chinese speakers on TV


Okay, then keep hugging China when they r making better relationship wt India now. Dont ask for help from ASEAN and VN if China turn their back on u coz we dont have 'good' Discipline and 'good looking' like Chinese


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## dichoi

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Chinese soldiers wow what great Discipline , just look at the straight line and formation, Vietnamese soldiers don't even have their caps on their head worn right
> 
> View attachment 73126
> 
> 
> Chinese girl vs Viet girl ... Chinese girl is way more cuter
> 
> 
> View attachment 73127
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen many Vietnamese ladies and they don't look like the girl you posted, I think that girl was also a model of some sort



but chinese can not counter Japan, Russia and US, For parade is beautiful.

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## terranMarine

dichoi said:


> but chinese can not counter Japan, Russia and US, For parade is beautiful.


And why would China counter Russia when the Americans with their stooges want to contain both of us? As for Japan you must be taking drugs, that panties obsessed nation is no match for China.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Vietnam is a wonderful nation , I think if it found peace with China , it can achieve more due to stability and trade and economy.
China and Russia are certainly the future

Also same with Japan , if Japan joined SCO and heck even Viet Name that would be the best thing for whole region

I do not know the , grudge between Vietnam vs China , because I am not familiar with that side of story

However I do know that not until recently China / Vietnam never had a problem before they both lived side by side

I do not fully understand the recent misunderstanding between China vs Vietnam

Pakistan is 100% with China , and China is 100% with Russia , so indirectly we are also with Russia

Vietnam appears to be in a wonderful area close to china / Japan and other nations


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## NiceGuy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Vietnam is a wonderful nation , I think if it found peace with China , it can achieve more due to stability and trade and economy.
> China and Russia are certainly the future
> 
> Also same with Japan , if Japan joined SCO and heck even Viet Name that would be the best thing for whole region
> 
> I do not know the , grudge between Vietnam vs China , because I am not familiar with that side of story
> 
> However I do know that not until recently China / Vietnam never had a problem before they both lived side by side
> 
> I do not fully understand the recent misunderstanding between China vs Vietnam
> 
> Pakistan is 100% with China , and China is 100% with Russia , so indirectly we are also with Russia


Problem is: Vn control the most important part of SCS(east sea) where China merchant ship from Middle, Africa , other ASEAN nations to China must pass through. And China dont want VN or any other countries to control their crucial shipping route , so we have trouble.

SCS(east sea) can be considered as China's throat, and unluckily , VN is controlling this 'throat'. So, the conflict will remain for many more years.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Thank you for a very direct explanation , certainly the small Island & presence of Navy in the waters might create unnecessary tension.

Since all the countries are so close in that zone it may mislead folks to assume one nation is trying to exert more influence over then other.

But seems like something that can easily be sorted out with a bilateral agreement of Allowing passage of Merchant ships , I was under impression under international rules , no merchant ship can be stopped illegally etc at least that is how the law works when the ships cross the Egypt Sanai crossing into Europe.


Hopefully China can offer trade with Vietnam , in return for cooperation for merchant ships seems like a very simple issue blown out of proportion

I don't recall that either Pakistan or Iran or Saudia collect tax from ships taking oil from Gulf to various regions of world , and they allow the ships to pass peacefully etc


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## xesy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Vietnam is a wonderful nation , I think if it found peace with China , it can achieve more due to stability and trade and economy.
> China and Russia are certainly the future
> 
> Also same with Japan , if Japan joined SCO and heck even Viet Name that would be the best thing for whole region
> 
> I do not know the , grudge between Vietnam vs China , because I am not familiar with that side of story
> 
> However I do know that not until recently China / Vietnam never had a problem before they both lived side by side
> 
> I do not fully understand the recent misunderstanding between China vs Vietnam
> 
> Pakistan is 100% with China , and China is 100% with Russia , so indirectly we are also with Russia
> 
> Vietnam appears to be in a wonderful area close to china / Japan and other nations
> 
> View attachment 73156


There have always been problems, but both govts keep it from the public. I still remember about 10 years ago the weather ladies reported news and weather reports about Paracel like nothing happened there, like we were controling it not China.

Still the situation is not that bad. Goods still crosses the border daily, and the people as well. Until one side closes the border, then sh!t just get real.

BTW, the chinese girl you just post a picture of looks exactly like a cousin of mine. VNese and Chinese are not so different after all. We mixed with each other for a long time.


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## NiceGuy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Thank you for a very direct explanation , certainly the small Island & presence of Navy in the waters might create unnecessary tension.
> 
> Since all the countries are so close in that zone it may mislead folks to assume one nation is trying to exert more influence over then other.
> 
> But seems like something that can easily be sorted out with a bilateral agreement of Allowing passage of Merchant ships , I was under impression under international rules , no merchant ship can be stopped illegally etc at least that is how the law works when the ships cross the Egypt Sanai crossing into Europe.
> 
> 
> Hopefully China can offer trade with Vietnam , in return for cooperation for merchant ships seems like a very simple issue blown out of proportion
> 
> I don't recall that either Pakistan or Iran or Saudia collect tax from ships taking oil from Gulf to various regions of world , and they allow the ships to pass peacefully etc


The agreement only happen when China stop saying that the islands under our control belong to them, and they have to return all islands they robbed from us in 1974, 1988. We have clear evidences to prove that those islands belong to VN for centuries.

And bcz they dont accept to return our islands, so, the conflict will never end. VN got support from Russia-USA-India-JP to contain China , so China is on disadvantage side now.

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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> You don't seem top realize you contradict yourself the reforms themselves are not the problems its the emperor in charge who ordered the invasion of Dai Viet and XiXia.
> 
> You argued that the Song was bankrupt from the Baojia system when in fact the policies resulted in a surplus,which emboldened Song Shenzong to preform military actions against his enemies.
> 
> Northern Song didn't fall because of the Baojia system it fell because a combination of factors including:
> 
> 1. Factional strife ie Cai Qing purging officials that didn't agree with him as well as monopolizing power,
> 
> 3.Reckless interpretation of the new reforms ie Cai Qing went farther than any of the previous reformers effectively turning the system into extortion and strangling merchants. However this cash was mainly diverted into the lining the pockets of the corrupt government officials as well as the Imperial family. However social welfare and training the extended Zhao clan also sapped the treasury.
> 
> 4.Song Huizong was too steeped in superstition and proceeded to build expensive projects to rectify the balance of the universe therefore causing rebellions as well as wasting troops to guard his treasure fleets. Song Huizong was also a megalomaniac in an effort to show his superiority he gave state cash to Taoist temples further diluting the funds.
> 
> 5.The Baojia troops were busy fighting internal wars ie Fang La rebellions as well as the Khitans and Jurchens,the issue isn't about troops quality but the councilors and generals who commanded them.
> 
> Even thought the invasions against XiXia costed astronomical amounts of money,the troops succeeded in repelling and for a while held XiXia by its throat. The issue was that the generals had no goal just throwing resources and men away while a incompetent eunuch resulted in 200,000 imperial Song troops dying.
> 
> Even though Fang La and Song Jiang's rebellions were crushed the court did the exact same thing they were doing before extracting resources and overtaxing peasants.
> 
> The issue with the Jurchens is that the Song army veterans were squandered in pacifying rebellions as well as the fruitless invasion of XiXia.


It seems you really like to argue. Perhaps you should reread the first two sentences of my post regarding this reforms again. I suggested that we analyze Wang Anshi's reforms together, in order to find how his reforms may have lead to the collapse of the North Song. Base on your replies, it appeared that you have already found the answer to your question.



Grand Historian said:


> No ,the Shang definitely had contact with the Afanasievo cultures,sacrificial victims included Caucasoid skulls as well as the introduction of chariots and horses.
> 
> 
> Erlitou =/= Shang or the Zhou,neither Erlitou or Erligang left behind traces of writing so how can they be equivalent to the Shang or the Zhou?
> 
> NEOLITHIC CHINA: BEFORE THE SHANG DYNASTY doesn't say where the bronze originates.
> 
> The Shang colonized Wancheng as well as Panlongcheng therefore the bronzes there resemble Shang ones,however other sites such as Sanxingdui exhibit a completely different tradition because the Shang did not interact with them.
> 
> If you're going to argue that Shang bronzes originated from the south than you have to explain why Shang didn't have southern bronzes such as bells.
> 
> Wucheng and Shang:A New History of a Bronze Age Civilization in Southern China by Zhang Liangren



The Tarim Basin mummies never crossed the desert to get even near to contact with ancient Chinese Culture of the Yantze River valley. The mummies remained in the desert for 3800 years. They never even got close to the central plain. The technology possessed by this culture was far less advanced than those artifacts found in Majiayao culture. However, they may be connected with present day Uyghur.

With the discovery of the Eriltou culture, Chinese archeologist depended on the traditional chronology of the Shang and Zhou to identify the site, connecting it with legendary Xia Dynasty (2100-1700 BC). This project of radiocarbon dating is called 夏商周断代工程 (The Xia–Shang–Zhou Chronology Project). The technology is believed to originated from the southern region.

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## tonyget

NiceGuy said:


> The agreement only happen when China stop saying that the islands under our control belong to them, and they have to return all islands they robbed from us in 1974, 1988. We have clear evidences to prove that those islands belong to VN for centuries.



You don't wanna tell me there were Vietnamese resident on those uninhabited rocks hundreds years ago, do you ?




NiceGuy said:


> VN got support from Russia-USA-India-JP to contain China , so China is on disadvantage side now.



And what's the exact "support" are you getting from those countries ?


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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> It seems you really like to argue. Perhaps you should reread the first two sentences of my post regarding this reforms again. I suggested that we analyze Wang Anshi's reforms together, in order to find how his reforms may have lead to the collapse of the North Song. Base on your replies, it appeared that you have already found the answer to your question.


No,I've debunked your spurious assertions multiple times while all you do is change the goal post.

Your claim "Combined with his other unfavorable reforms as well as government loans to poor farmers, which a lot of farmers took advantage of, eventually bankrupted the Song's government and force them into war with their neighbors to make up lost revenue.

Like any modern employer, Song Emperor can't afford to pay the salaries of his large employment force without putting them to work."

While I showed you the reforms never bankrupted the state in fact it generated tremendous amounts of wealth.

The Song didn't wage war to recover lost revenue they wanted to reclaim lost lands.

Your claim "I still believe that Wang Anshi's impulsive political reforms caused the Northern Song to collapse. Spending so much money within a short period of time."

His policies generated money,the government loaned money out for interest returns.

The issue was that Cai Qing took the policies to the next level ie towards extortion rates therefore surpassing Wang Anshi's wildest dreams.

You keep on claiming his reforms bankrupted the dynasty while the Song kept on gaining more money.



Rent said:


> The Tarim Basin mummies never crossed the desert to get even near to contact with ancient Chinese Culture of the Yantze River valley. The mummies remained in the desert for 3800 years. They never even got close to the central plain. The technology possessed by this culture was far less advanced than those artifacts found in Majiayao culture. However, they may be connected with present day Uyghur.
> 
> With the discovery of the Eriltou culture, Chinese archeologist depended on the traditional chronology of the Shang and Zhou to identify the site, connecting it with legendary Xia Dynasty (2100-1700 BC). This project of radiocarbon dating is called 夏商周断代工程 (The Xia–Shang–Zhou Chronology Project). The technology is believed to originated from the southern region.


Yangtze river valley wasn't remotely Chinese,genetics and anthropology has shown they aren't related to present day Han Chinese rather its been speculated they were Austronesian.

While the Liangzhu culture and its successors culturally influenced the cultures in central China they didn't leave behind a genetic imprint in central China.

Some sort of culture was passed from Afaensievo to central China,domestication of horses and chariots were not indigenous developments.

Read Wucheng and Shang:A New History of a Bronze Age Civilization in Southern China by Zhang Liangren to see there was a separate Northern and Southern tradition in bronze smelting that manifested itself in Wucheng.

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## Viet

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Chinese soldiers wow what great Discipline , just look at the straight line and formation, *Vietnamese soldiers don't even have their caps on their head worn right*
> 
> View attachment 73126
> 
> 
> Chinese girl vs Viet girl ... Chinese girl is way more cuter
> 
> 
> View attachment 73127
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen many Vietnamese ladies and they don't look like the girl you posted, I think that girl was also a model of some sort, normally girls from Vietnam don't look like that
> 
> 
> Chinese language , and the way its spoken appears very polite specially the songs very distinct way to communicate , I have heard some Hong Kong folks speak and their way of talking is quite different then Chinese speakers on TV


parade of Vietnamese army (Victory of Dien bien phu battle of 1954)


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## NiceGuy

tonyget said:


> You don't wanna tell me there were Vietnamese resident on those uninhabited rocks hundreds years ago, do you ?
> 
> ?


We only had people live in Paracel during French colonization time, but at least we lived there earlier than u.


tonyge said:


> And what's the exact "support" are you getting from those countries


They support weapon on Credit, money, training etc lonely China will be get a hard lesson from us soon. Remember that in history, when China was weak, Vn always made some plans to invade the South of China like Guangdong and Guangxi??


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> We only had people live in Paracel during French colonization time, but at least we lived there earlier than u.
> 
> They support weapon on Credit, money, training etc lonely China will be get a hard lesson from us soon. Remember that in history, *when China was weak, Vn always made some plans to invade the South of China like Guangdong and Guangxi??*



Cantonese always despise the Viets, and now you wanna invade their homeland? Give me a break.

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Cantonese always despise the Viets, and now you wanna invade their homeland? Give me a break.


They will run aways for their lives, like many times we attacked them in history .

When China going down, even a small ethnic like Manchus also can invade the whole China


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> They will run aways for their lives, like many times we attacked them in history .
> 
> When China going down, even a small ethnic like Manchus also can invade the whole China



When China was weak, Viets never manage grab a piece from it.

This only shows how weak and incompetent you were.

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> When China was weak, Viets never manage grab a piece from it.
> 
> This only shows how weak and incompetent you were.


Yeah, coz we were so busy to grab lands of Champa-Khmer when China was weak.

But we may think abt ur Guangxi , Guangdong this time


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> Yeah, coz we were so busy to grab lands of Champa-Khmer when China was weak.
> 
> But we may think abt ur Guangxi , Guangdong this time



When China was weak, you got colonized by France.


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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> When China was weak, you got colonized by France.


in fact, its a civil war btween Christian VNese and nationalist VNese. Christian VNese called for support from France and they defeated the King of Nguyen dynasty.

And we kicked those Christian VNese out after 1975.


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> in fact, its a civil war btween Christian VNese and nationalist VNese. Christian VNese called for support from France and they defeated the King of Nguyen dynasty.
> 
> And we kicked those Christian VNese out after 1975.



Here is the dream of you crazy Viet ultranationalists.

But a dream always remains as a dream.

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Here is the dream of you crazy Viet ultranationalists.
> 
> But a dream always remains as a dream.
> 
> View attachment 75019


At least we got some successful attack to China lands and your army , your people ran away like ducks 


> In 1075, Wang Anshi, the prime minister, told the Song emperor that Đại Việt was being destroyed by Champa, with less than ten thousand soldiers surviving, hence it would be a good occasion to annex Đại Việt. The Song emperor mobilized troops and passed a decree to forbid all the provinces to trade with Đại Việt. Upon hearing the news, the Lý ruler sent Lý Thường Kiệt and Tôn Đản with more than 100,000 troops to China to carry out a pre-emptive attack against the Song troops. In the ensuing 40-day battle near modern-day Nanning, the Đại Việt troops were victorious, capturing the generals of three Song armies.
> Lý dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> At least we got some successful attack to China lands and your army , your people ran away like ducks



Is Nanning under China or Vietnam?

How you didn't succeed to grab our land?


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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> No,I've debunked your spurious assertions multiple times while all you do is change the goal post.
> 
> Your claim "Combined with his other unfavorable reforms as well as government loans to poor farmers, which a lot of farmers took advantage of, eventually bankrupted the Song's government and force them into war with their neighbors to make up lost revenue.
> 
> Like any modern employer, Song Emperor can't afford to pay the salaries of his large employment force without putting them to work."
> 
> While I showed you the reforms never bankrupted the state in fact it generated tremendous amounts of wealth.
> 
> The Song didn't wage war to recover lost revenue they wanted to reclaim lost lands.
> 
> Your claim "I still believe that Wang Anshi's impulsive political reforms caused the Northern Song to collapse. Spending so much money within a short period of time."
> 
> His policies generated money,the government loaned money out for interest returns.
> 
> The issue was that Cai Qing took the policies to the next level ie towards extortion rates therefore surpassing Wang Anshi's wildest dreams.
> 
> You keep on claiming his reforms bankrupted the dynasty while the Song kept on gaining more money.
> 
> 
> Yangtze river valley wasn't remotely Chinese,genetics and anthropology has shown they aren't related to present day Han Chinese rather its been speculated they were Austronesian.
> 
> While the Liangzhu culture and its successors culturally influenced the cultures in central China they didn't leave behind a genetic imprint in central China.
> 
> Some sort of culture was passed from Afaensievo to central China,domestication of horses and chariots were not indigenous developments.
> 
> Read Wucheng and Shang:A New History of a Bronze Age Civilization in Southern China by Zhang Liangren to see there was a separate Northern and Southern tradition in bronze smelting that manifested itself in Wucheng.


The more you type, the more you show others in this forum how little you really understand about your own history. I recommend that you re-visit the Song History from the year 1065-1127 before claiming that you have "debunked" your own history book.

For a different perspective of this era, I also suggest you research poetries written during Song Dynasty by famous poets such Li Qingzhao and many others, whom grieve a lot about homeless and poor conditions of life in their poetries and then compare those poems to the poems written by poets during the Tang Dynasty.

Below is a complete summary of Song Dynasty. You may skip down to the part in Bold.


Song Dynasty
The Northern Song Dynasty (960 – 1127 A.D.)

The Northern Song was a regime of the Han people founded by Zhao Kuangyin who was known as Emperor Taizu. The Song capital was located at Kaifeng in Henan Province.

In 959, Emperor Shizong of Later Zhou kingdom died of illness, so Emperor Gong, a seven years old boy, succeeded to the throne. In 960, Zhao Kuangyin, Satrap and Commander of the imperial army, started a mutiny in Chenqiaoyi (southeast of present-day Fengqiu in Henan) and led an army into Kaifeng to force Emperor Gong to abdicate his throne to him. The name of the dynasty was changed to Song, which historically known as the Northern Song. And the capital remained in Kaifeng in north China. During the early period of Northern Song Dynasty (960-997), the great efforts to end separatism were made. After fighting for over ten years across the country, Zhao eliminated the resistant forces of the Later Zhou and cleared away the separatist regimes of the Jingnan, the Later Shu, the Southern Han and the Southern Tang. Later, Emperor Taizong summoned Qian Chu of the Wuyue to surrender, which meant the end of the Northern Han. By this time, the state of warlord warfare that had lasted over 200 years from the time of the An Lushan and Shi Siming Revolts. The Tang Dynasty basically ended. The Northern Song's territories extended to the eastern and southern coastlines. In the north, it bordered on the Liao, along the present-day Jin River, Baxian in Hebei and Yanmenguan in Shanxi. In the northwest, it reached as far as the Baiyü Mountain in Shaanxi, the eastern Gansu and the northeastern Qinghai, contiguous to the Western Xia and the Turfan. In the southwest it bordered on Dai Viet (Vietnam).

They also introduced political, military and economic reforms in order to ensure peace and stability. Militarily, they plotted to deprive the militarily power of generals, set up a Military Council to take charge of troop-deployment arrangement, but without any power to command troops. The Marshals and the Military Council had their own duties but held each other in check. They were both under direct control of the emperor. In the army, a shifting defence system was implemented - troops and their commander were regularly transferred to different regions for military service to prevent them from forming cliques. Administrative reforms included the three central departments, the Secretariat, the Military Council, and the Chancellor of the Treasury, which were placed under the Prime Minister to share administrative, military and financial power. In this way, the Prime Minister would not have too much power. The power of local despotic satraps was taken to drain. These satraps were given sinecures in the capital, while their former domains were to be governed by civil prefects appointed by the emperor and under the direct control of the royal house. The local surplus revenues, after deduction for expenditures, were subjected to the central government. These reforms greatly strengthened the power of the central government, created political stability and spurred economic development. But the increase in centralized power also produced negative effects such as the weakening of local governments and the military strength.

The middle period of the Northern Song (998-1099), was an important period in the history of the Northern Song. The new economic policies such as the "two-taxes" system and the tenancy system greatly motivated the peasants to work. As a result, population increased, more land was cultivated, more advanced iron tools were made, more effective farming techniques appeared and farming products became more diversified as well as doubled in output. Statistics show there were 4.13 million families on the household register in 997. The number of families increased to 12.46 million in 1063. Farming land increased from 300 million in 996) to 520 million mu in1063. This fast agricultural growth promoted the development of handicrafts and commerce. The Northern Song industries of shipbuilding, metallurgy, textiles, dyeing, paper-making and china-making all experienced greater progress than any previous dynasties either in scale of production or techniques. Paper money appeared and soon was in widespread use. This period also saw a boom in science and culture as a result of the invention and application of the compass, printing techniques and gunpowder. *However, social conflicts became increasingly common. Both military and political expansion together with quick land annexation pace increasingly depleted the government treasury. Under these circumstances, the Northern Song tried several reforms to improve the situation. Well-known examples are the "Qingli Reform" during Emperor Renzong's reign and the "Wang Anshi Reform" during Emperor Shenzong's reign. But these reforms brought about few results, and the Northern Song went into decline. 

In the last stage of the Northern Song (1100-1127), many peasants, impoverished and homeless rose to rebel against the government. The uprisings led by Fang La and Song Jiang were among the biggest of the period. Moreover, external aggression aggravated the situation. For a long time, the Northern Song kept fighting against the Liao, the Xia and the Jin. Soon after the truce with the Western Xia, a powerful Jin force launched a large-scale attack on the Northern Song. In 1126, the Jin army conquered Kaifeng, the capital of the Northern Song. In 1127, the Northern Song emperor was deposed and the dynasty came to the end.*


The Southern Song Dynasty (A.D. 1127 - A.D. 1279)

The Southern Song was a Han regime founded by Zhao Gou (known as Emperor Gaozong), with its capital in Lin'an (present-day Hangzhou, Zhejiang).

In 1126, the capital of Northern Song Kaifeng was conquered by the army of Jin. In 1127, Emperor Qinzong was deposed, ending the Northern Song. One month later, Zhao Gou, the Prince of Kang the ninth son of Emperor Huizong of Northern Song and former marshal in Hebei, was supported by former ministers of the Northern Song and thus was designated as emperor in Nanjin (south of present-day Shangqiu in Henan), reestablished the Song Dynasty, known as the Southern Song Dynasty. Emperor Gaozong did not adopt the suggestion of active resistance of his prime minister but passive defense. Consequently, discouraged, the Song fled to Hangzhou, and then southern of China, abandoning the Huai River valley and the Yangtze River under the pressure of the Jin forces. Not until the Jin troop were satisfied with the war booty they had required and withdrew to the north did Emperor Gao Zong come back to Hangzhou where he established the capital. Then, Hangzhou was renamed Lin'an.
Its territorial boundaries in the north extended from the Huaishui, through Jingtang (present-day Tanghe in Henan), Deng (east of present-day Deng County in Henan) to Dasanguan (southwest of Baoji, Shaanxi) in the Qinling Mountain, bordering the Jin and in the southeast and southwest remained the same as those of the Northern Song. Jin controlled northern part of China, moved its capital to Yan, then, it was renamed Dadu, in order to control the Yellow River Valley easily.

The political system in the Southern Song generally followed its Northern Song counterparts. But the administrative organisations were streamlined and re-structured to accommodate the new practice of autocratic centralisation of power. The three secretariats and six departments of the former Northern Song Dynasty were merged in order to reduce the number of official posts and administrative organisations. But changes were not so drastic with respect to regional governments. Reforms were also introduced into the military system. Early in the Southern Song, the former Northern Song's Military Council was replaced with various bodies. But in 1131, the Military Council was restored to its position as the highest military body. At the same time, more military and paramilitary organisations were set up in regional areas to maintain order and to resist the Jin forces.

After the Southern Song became more politically stable, the social economy began to develop. Two-fifths smaller than Northern Song, the Southern Song's advanced agricultural techniques saw it reap rich harvests. To meet its military needs, the Southern Song paid great attention to weapon manufacturing, mining, metallurgy, and shipbuilding. As a result, the Southern Song surpassed the Northern Song in technique and scale of these industries.
One noticeable cultural development during the Southern Song was the flourishing of moral science, especially the Neo-Confucianism which came to be the official ideology of the day.
The Southern Song took some strategic defense measures which were quite successful. It strengthened its defensive forces in Shaanxi andSichuan. A complete system of defensive works was built to link the Yangtze River and the eastern bank of the Huai River midstream. It pursued a strategy of attacking the Central Plains with Jingxiang as its base to link up with Hesu. It also attached great importance to developing military hardware, reforming the military system and increasing the army's manpower. As a result, the situation became more favorable. However, the Southern Song pursued a policy of suing for peace and had no plan to recover the Central Plains. Moreover, its policy of appointing civil officials to control and restrain military officers greatly discouraged its generals and hindered the development of military strength. The measures taken in 1114 to deprive three great generals of their commanding power, to kill the outstanding anti-Jin general Yue Fei and to reduce the number of the soldiers led to its self-destruction. Consequently, the Southern Song went into decline.

After the emergence of the Mongols, the three powers in the north - the Mongols, the Western Xia and the Jin - constantly fought against each other. This should have been the best opportunity for the Southern Song to expand. But, its rulers, having adopted a self-defence strategy, took no action at all. It was not until the Western Xia vanished and the Jin, having lost most of its northern territories, turned to attack the Southern Song that the Southern Song was forced to fight. Although the Southern Song troops held the southward marching Jin army at bay, they also suffered heavy losses. Meanwhile the Mongolian forces entered the northern bank of the Yellow River, while the Southern Song no longer had any strength left to march north. Worse still, when the Jin was doomed, the Southern Song even made a decision to unite with the Mongols to resist the Jin, not knowing that it would soon follow the Jin's fate. 

After the Yuan army captured Lin'an in 1276, the Southern Song Dynasty ended. Some of its ministers went south to Fujian and Guangdong to reestablish the mini-Song court which was short-lived, ending in 1279 at Yashan.


Economy of the Song Dynasty

During the Song period, agriculture, handicrafts and commerce flourished. New cities sprang up. In agriculture, growing areas continuously increased. Tools of production were also improved. Tali, a laborsaving plough that could replace form cattle appeared, other farm implements, such as Yangma by which people could transplant thousands of beds of rice seedlings each day, water-powered and cattle-driven waterwheels started to be widely used. Improved rice, named Zhancheng Rice, was popularized and thus its output was greatly increased. In Northern Song period, there were nearly two ofr three hundred mines in whole country. With division of labor like panning, mining, boiling and refining, each miner had his own responsibility. The amount of iron then produced increased by a big margin. The smelting of copper, iron, lead and tin was very popular. The amount coal produced was considerable and excavating techniques were much improved. Great technological progress was also made in the mining of well salt in southwest China, resulting in the increasing of output.

The silk weaving was very flourishing in the northern Song Dynasty. The fine silk was as light as a mist. Overseas trade began to develop. Achievements in porcelain manufacture outshone all previous records and sold overseas.Among the famous kilns were Guanyao in Kaifeng, Ruyao in Ruzhou (now Linru County, Henan), Junyao in Yuzhou (now Henan), Dingyao in Dingzhou (now Hebei)and yueyao in Yuezhou (now Shaoxing, Zhejiang), which were jointly known as Five Famous Kilns. And shipbuilding, papermaking, sugar refining and tea processing had all made evident progress compared with those before. Flourishing commerce centers were found every where in the south as well as in the north, there were row upon row of shops and markets in the capital city and other big cities. With the collercial prosperity, the earliest paper currency called Jiaozi, started to be issued. Overseas trading in the Song was extraordinarily prosperous. A harbor administration, with its agency called Shibosi, took charge of foreign trade in such foreign trading ports as Guangzhoum Hangzhou, Mingzhou (now Ningbo, Zhejiang) and so forth. Thus the mumber of Korean, Japanese, Arabs and Persians who came to China to trade increased day after day. Gunpowder was widely used for military purposes.

Culture and Science of the Song Dynasty

During the Song period, science and technology made impressive strides. A host of thinkers, scholars and men of letters came to the fore. There was a boom in calligraphy, painting, sculpture and weaving art. Especially noteworthy are the inventions of the compass and movable type printing which have greatly contributed to human progress.
In the area of Chinese literature, Ci poetry of the Song Dynasty enjoyed a high prestige. It originated from the Tang Dyansty and matured in the Five Dynasties, creation reached its summit in the Song Dynasty. Su Shi, Lu You, and Xin Qiji were famous Ci poets. Writing about a wide range of subjects and expressing bold and unrestrained feelings. Vernacular tales of the Song Dynasty, know as Hua Ben, originated from the master copies of those who engaged in storytelling and ballad singing, It dealt with such topics as classic, history and town life and thus exerted great influence on the novels of the Ming and Qing Dynasties.
First imperial art academy in China was established during the Five Dynasty. But, during the Song Dynasty, art academy came to a time of great prosperity. There were different genre paintings appeared. The famous painters all had their own distinctive achievements, some of them famous for landscape, some of them famous for flowers and birds.

Famous calligraphers emerged in large numbers in the Song Dynasty. Su Shi, HuangTingjian, Mi Fu and Cai Xiang enjoyed a high prestige in the history of Chinese calligraphy.

Li Xue appeared in the Song Dynasty. Li Xue, also known as Dao Xue, was a Confucian school formed by Buddhism and Taoism. Compared with taditional Confucianism, it was a great change. Neo- Confucianism, one group of LiXue enjoyed high prestige during the later period of Song. In the following hundreds of years, its explanation and analysis on Confucian classics was set up as an official one and thus became an orthodox learning.

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Is Nanning under China or Vietnam?
> 
> How you didn't succeed to grab our land?


Coz we r busy to grab Champa's lands and the next was Khmer's lands

When u r weak, we may not need your land (if we need more lands , we will head to the South and West ), but we will teach u a hard lesson again to remind u guys that dont do the bad things to VN.

We r getting stronger wt Russia-US-India-JP's help now, and that sad history to your Guangdong-Guangxi will happen again

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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> *Coz we r busy to grab Champa's lands and the next was Khmer's lands*
> 
> When u r weak, we may not need your land (if we need more lands , we will head to the South and West ), but we we will teach u a hard lesson again.
> 
> We r getting stronger wt Russia-US-India-JP's help now, and that sad history to your Guangdong-Guangxi will happen again



You have done this during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644).

But the fight in Nanning occurred during the period of the Song Dynasty (960-1279), so next time just doing some homework about the history before trolling.


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## NiceGuy

Rent said:


> Song Dynasty
> The Northern Song Dynasty (960 – 1127 A.D.)
> 
> The Northern Song was a regime of the Han people founded by Zhao Kuangyin who was known as Emperor Taizu. The Song capital was located at Kaifeng in Henan Province.
> 
> In 959, Emperor Shizong of Later Zhou kingdom died of illness, so Emperor Gong, a seven years old boy, succeeded to the throne. In 960, Zhao Kuangyin, Satrap and Commander of the imperial army, started a mutiny in Chenqiaoyi (southeast of present-day Fengqiu in Henan) and led an army into Kaifeng to force Emperor Gong to abdicate his throne to him. The name of the dynasty was changed to Song, which historically known as the Northern Song. And the capital remained in Kaifeng in north China. During the early period of Northern Song Dynasty (960-997), the great efforts to end separatism were made. After fighting for over ten years across the country, Zhao eliminated the resistant forces of the Later Zhou and cleared away the separatist regimes of the Jingnan, the Later Shu, the Southern Han and the Southern Tang. Later, Emperor Taizong summoned Qian Chu of the Wuyue to surrender, which meant the end of the Northern Han. By this time, the state of warlord warfare that had lasted over 200 years from the time of the An Lushan and Shi Siming Revolts. The Tang Dynasty basically ended. The Northern Song's territories extended to the eastern and southern coastlines. In the north, it bordered on the Liao, along the present-day Jin River, Baxian in Hebei and Yanmenguan in Shanxi. In the northwest, it reached as far as the Baiyü Mountain in Shaanxi, the eastern Gansu and the northeastern Qinghai, contiguous to the Western Xia and the Turfan. In the southwest it bordered on Dai Viet (Vietnam).
> 
> They also introduced political, military and economic reforms in order to ensure peace and stability. Militarily, they plotted to deprive the militarily power of generals, set up a Military Council to take charge of troop-deployment arrangement, but without any power to command troops. The Marshals and the Military Council had their own duties but held each other in check. They were both under direct control of the emperor. In the army, a shifting defence system was implemented - troops and their commander were regularly transferred to different regions for military service to prevent them from forming cliques. Administrative reforms included the three central departments, the Secretariat, the Military Council, and the Chancellor of the Treasury, which were placed under the Prime Minister to share administrative, military and financial power. In this way, the Prime Minister would not have too much power. The power of local despotic satraps was taken to drain. These satraps were given sinecures in the capital, while their former domains were to be governed by civil prefects appointed by the emperor and under the direct control of the royal house. The local surplus revenues, after deduction for expenditures, were subjected to the central government. These reforms greatly strengthened the power of the central government, created political stability and spurred economic development. But the increase in centralized power also produced negative effects such as the weakening of local governments and the military strength.
> 
> The middle period of the Northern Song (998-1099), was an important period in the history of the Northern Song. The new economic policies such as the "two-taxes" system and the tenancy system greatly motivated the peasants to work. As a result, population increased, more land was cultivated, more advanced iron tools were made, more effective farming techniques appeared and farming products became more diversified as well as doubled in output. Statistics show there were 4.13 million families on the household register in 997. The number of families increased to 12.46 million in 1063. Farming land increased from 300 million in 996) to 520 million mu in1063. This fast agricultural growth promoted the development of handicrafts and commerce. The Northern Song industries of shipbuilding, metallurgy, textiles, dyeing, paper-making and china-making all experienced greater progress than any previous dynasties either in scale of production or techniques. Paper money appeared and soon was in widespread use. This period also saw a boom in science and culture as a result of the invention and application of the compass, printing techniques and gunpowder. *However, social conflicts became increasingly common. Both military and political expansion together with quick land annexation pace increasingly depleted the government treasury. Under these circumstances, the Northern Song tried several reforms to improve the situation. Well-known examples are the "Qingli Reform" during Emperor Renzong's reign and the "Wang Anshi Reform" during Emperor Shenzong's reign. But these reforms brought about few results, and the Northern Song went into decline.
> 
> In the last stage of the Northern Song (1100-1127), many peasants, impoverished and homeless rose to rebel against the government. The uprisings led by Fang La and Song Jiang were among the biggest of the period. Moreover, external aggression aggravated the situation. For a long time, the Northern Song kept fighting against the Liao, the Xia and the Jin. Soon after the truce with the Western Xia, a powerful Jin force launched a large-scale attack on the Northern Song. In 1126, the Jin army conquered Kaifeng, the capital of the Northern Song. In 1127, the Northern Song emperor was deposed and the dynasty came to the end.*
> 
> 
> The Southern Song Dynasty (A.D. 1127 - A.D. 1279)
> 
> The Southern Song was a Han regime founded by Zhao Gou (known as Emperor Gaozong), with its capital in Lin'an (present-day Hangzhou, Zhejiang).
> 
> In 1126, the capital of Northern Song Kaifeng was conquered by the army of Jin. In 1127, Emperor Qinzong was deposed, ending the Northern Song. One month later, Zhao Gou, the Prince of Kang the ninth son of Emperor Huizong of Northern Song and former marshal in Hebei, was supported by former ministers of the Northern Song and thus was designated as emperor in Nanjin (south of present-day Shangqiu in Henan), reestablished the Song Dynasty, known as the Southern Song Dynasty. Emperor Gaozong did not adopt the suggestion of active resistance of his prime minister but passive defense. Consequently, discouraged, the Song fled to Hangzhou, and then southern of China, abandoning the Huai River valley and the Yangtze River under the pressure of the Jin forces. Not until the Jin troop were satisfied with the war booty they had required and withdrew to the north did Emperor Gao Zong come back to Hangzhou where he established the capital. Then, Hangzhou was renamed Lin'an.
> Its territorial boundaries in the north extended from the Huaishui, through Jingtang (present-day Tanghe in Henan), Deng (east of present-day Deng County in Henan) to Dasanguan (southwest of Baoji, Shaanxi) in the Qinling Mountain, bordering the Jin and in the southeast and southwest remained the same as those of the Northern Song. Jin controlled northern part of China, moved its capital to Yan, then, it was renamed Dadu, in order to control the Yellow River Valley easily.
> 
> The political system in the Southern Song generally followed its Northern Song counterparts. But the administrative organisations were streamlined and re-structured to accommodate the new practice of autocratic centralisation of power. The three secretariats and six departments of the former Northern Song Dynasty were merged in order to reduce the number of official posts and administrative organisations. But changes were not so drastic with respect to regional governments. Reforms were also introduced into the military system. Early in the Southern Song, the former Northern Song's Military Council was replaced with various bodies. But in 1131, the Military Council was restored to its position as the highest military body. At the same time, more military and paramilitary organisations were set up in regional areas to maintain order and to resist the Jin forces.
> 
> After the Southern Song became more politically stable, the social economy began to develop. Two-fifths smaller than Northern Song, the Southern Song's advanced agricultural techniques saw it reap rich harvests. To meet its military needs, the Southern Song paid great attention to weapon manufacturing, mining, metallurgy, and shipbuilding. As a result, the Southern Song surpassed the Northern Song in technique and scale of these industries.
> One noticeable cultural development during the Southern Song was the flourishing of moral science, especially the Neo-Confucianism which came to be the official ideology of the day.
> The Southern Song took some strategic defense measures which were quite successful. It strengthened its defensive forces in Shaanxi andSichuan. A complete system of defensive works was built to link the Yangtze River and the eastern bank of the Huai River midstream. It pursued a strategy of attacking the Central Plains with Jingxiang as its base to link up with Hesu. It also attached great importance to developing military hardware, reforming the military system and increasing the army's manpower. As a result, the situation became more favorable. However, the Southern Song pursued a policy of suing for peace and had no plan to recover the Central Plains. Moreover, its policy of appointing civil officials to control and restrain military officers greatly discouraged its generals and hindered the development of military strength. The measures taken in 1114 to deprive three great generals of their commanding power, to kill the outstanding anti-Jin general Yue Fei and to reduce the number of the soldiers led to its self-destruction. Consequently, the Southern Song went into decline.
> 
> After the emergence of the Mongols, the three powers in the north - the Mongols, the Western Xia and the Jin - constantly fought against each other. This should have been the best opportunity for the Southern Song to expand. But, its rulers, having adopted a self-defence strategy, took no action at all. It was not until the Western Xia vanished and the Jin, having lost most of its northern territories, turned to attack the Southern Song that the Southern Song was forced to fight. Although the Southern Song troops held the southward marching Jin army at bay, they also suffered heavy losses. Meanwhile the Mongolian forces entered the northern bank of the Yellow River, while the Southern Song no longer had any strength left to march north. Worse still, when the Jin was doomed, the Southern Song even made a decision to unite with the Mongols to resist the Jin, not knowing that it would soon follow the Jin's fate.
> 
> After the Yuan army captured Lin'an in 1276, the Southern Song Dynasty ended. Some of its ministers went south to Fujian and Guangdong to reestablish the mini-Song court which was short-lived, ending in 1279 at Yashan.
> 
> .


Can I ask u a question
VN history wrote that our Gen. Ly Thuong Kiet started a pre-emptive attack to Guangxi (the attacked locations r marked wt Red) wt 100,000 Dai Viet troops and we successfully capture those lands , but retreated after that due to the threat from Champa.










Is this correct ??



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You have done this during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644).
> 
> But the fight in Nanning occurred during the period of the Song Dynasty (960-1279), so next time just doing some homework about the history before trolling.


We started our land grabbing from Champa during your Song dynasty (equal wt our Ly dynasty).


> During the Lý dynasty, the Vietnamese began their long march to the south (_Nam tiến_) at the expense of the Chams and the Khmer. Lê Đại Hành of the Early Lê dynasty had sacked the Cham capital of Indrapura in 982, whereupon the Chams established a new capital at Vijaya. *This was captured twice by the Lý army, however, and in 1079 the Chams were forced to cede to the Lý rulers their three northern provinces*. Soon afterwards, Vietnamese peasants began moving into the untilled former Cham lands, turning them into rice fields and moving relentlessly southward, delta by delta, along the narrow coastal plain.
> Lý dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> Can I ask u a question
> VN history wrote that our Gen. Ly Thuong Kiet started a pre-emptive attack to Guangxi (the attacked locations r marked wt Red) wt 100,000 Dai Viet troops and we successfully capture those lands , but retreated after that due to the threat from Champa.
> View attachment 75127
> 
> View attachment 75128
> 
> 
> Is this correct ??
> 
> 
> We started our land grabbing from Champa during your Song dynasty (equal wt our Ly dynasty).



That's why South Vietnamese should gain independence from you Viet colonizer and regain their true identity.


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## East Lake

You guys really need to stop arguing...

I have a question. Who is the most revered ancient Vietnamese figure? I know there are Ho Chi Minh, but he is very recent.


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## ChineseTiger1986

East Lake said:


> You guys really need to stop arguing...
> 
> I have a question. Who is the most revered ancient Vietnamese figure? I know there are Ho Chi Minh, but he is very recent.



Is the girl in your avatar Vietnamese?

She looks very Chinese though.


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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> The more you type, the more you show others in this forum how little you really understand about your own history. I recommend that you re-visit the Song History from the year 1065-1127 before claiming that you have "debunked" your own history book.
> 
> For a different perspective of this era, I also suggest you research poetries written during Song Dynasty by famous poets such Li Qingzhao and many others, whom grieve a lot about homeless and poor conditions of life in their poetries and then compare those poems to the poems written by poets during the Tang Dynasty.
> 
> Below is a complete summary of Song Dynasty. You may skip down to the part in Bold.
> 
> 
> Song Dynasty
> The Northern Song Dynasty (960 – 1127 A.D.)
> 
> The Northern Song was a regime of the Han people founded by Zhao Kuangyin who was known as Emperor Taizu. The Song capital was located at Kaifeng in Henan Province.
> 
> In 959, Emperor Shizong of Later Zhou kingdom died of illness, so Emperor Gong, a seven years old boy, succeeded to the throne. In 960, Zhao Kuangyin, Satrap and Commander of the imperial army, started a mutiny in Chenqiaoyi (southeast of present-day Fengqiu in Henan) and led an army into Kaifeng to force Emperor Gong to abdicate his throne to him. The name of the dynasty was changed to Song, which historically known as the Northern Song. And the capital remained in Kaifeng in north China. During the early period of Northern Song Dynasty (960-997), the great efforts to end separatism were made. After fighting for over ten years across the country, Zhao eliminated the resistant forces of the Later Zhou and cleared away the separatist regimes of the Jingnan, the Later Shu, the Southern Han and the Southern Tang. Later, Emperor Taizong summoned Qian Chu of the Wuyue to surrender, which meant the end of the Northern Han. By this time, the state of warlord warfare that had lasted over 200 years from the time of the An Lushan and Shi Siming Revolts. The Tang Dynasty basically ended. The Northern Song's territories extended to the eastern and southern coastlines. In the north, it bordered on the Liao, along the present-day Jin River, Baxian in Hebei and Yanmenguan in Shanxi. In the northwest, it reached as far as the Baiyü Mountain in Shaanxi, the eastern Gansu and the northeastern Qinghai, contiguous to the Western Xia and the Turfan. In the southwest it bordered on Dai Viet (Vietnam).
> 
> They also introduced political, military and economic reforms in order to ensure peace and stability. Militarily, they plotted to deprive the militarily power of generals, set up a Military Council to take charge of troop-deployment arrangement, but without any power to command troops. The Marshals and the Military Council had their own duties but held each other in check. They were both under direct control of the emperor. In the army, a shifting defence system was implemented - troops and their commander were regularly transferred to different regions for military service to prevent them from forming cliques. Administrative reforms included the three central departments, the Secretariat, the Military Council, and the Chancellor of the Treasury, which were placed under the Prime Minister to share administrative, military and financial power. In this way, the Prime Minister would not have too much power. The power of local despotic satraps was taken to drain. These satraps were given sinecures in the capital, while their former domains were to be governed by civil prefects appointed by the emperor and under the direct control of the royal house. The local surplus revenues, after deduction for expenditures, were subjected to the central government. These reforms greatly strengthened the power of the central government, created political stability and spurred economic development. But the increase in centralized power also produced negative effects such as the weakening of local governments and the military strength.
> 
> The middle period of the Northern Song (998-1099), was an important period in the history of the Northern Song. The new economic policies such as the "two-taxes" system and the tenancy system greatly motivated the peasants to work. As a result, population increased, more land was cultivated, more advanced iron tools were made, more effective farming techniques appeared and farming products became more diversified as well as doubled in output. Statistics show there were 4.13 million families on the household register in 997. The number of families increased to 12.46 million in 1063. Farming land increased from 300 million in 996) to 520 million mu in1063. This fast agricultural growth promoted the development of handicrafts and commerce. The Northern Song industries of shipbuilding, metallurgy, textiles, dyeing, paper-making and china-making all experienced greater progress than any previous dynasties either in scale of production or techniques. Paper money appeared and soon was in widespread use. This period also saw a boom in science and culture as a result of the invention and application of the compass, printing techniques and gunpowder. *However, social conflicts became increasingly common. Both military and political expansion together with quick land annexation pace increasingly depleted the government treasury. Under these circumstances, the Northern Song tried several reforms to improve the situation. Well-known examples are the "Qingli Reform" during Emperor Renzong's reign and the "Wang Anshi Reform" during Emperor Shenzong's reign. But these reforms brought about few results, and the Northern Song went into decline.
> 
> In the last stage of the Northern Song (1100-1127), many peasants, impoverished and homeless rose to rebel against the government. The uprisings led by Fang La and Song Jiang were among the biggest of the period. Moreover, external aggression aggravated the situation. For a long time, the Northern Song kept fighting against the Liao, the Xia and the Jin. Soon after the truce with the Western Xia, a powerful Jin force launched a large-scale attack on the Northern Song. In 1126, the Jin army conquered Kaifeng, the capital of the Northern Song. In 1127, the Northern Song emperor was deposed and the dynasty came to the end.*
> 
> 
> The Southern Song Dynasty (A.D. 1127 - A.D. 1279)
> 
> The Southern Song was a Han regime founded by Zhao Gou (known as Emperor Gaozong), with its capital in Lin'an (present-day Hangzhou, Zhejiang).
> 
> In 1126, the capital of Northern Song Kaifeng was conquered by the army of Jin. In 1127, Emperor Qinzong was deposed, ending the Northern Song. One month later, Zhao Gou, the Prince of Kang the ninth son of Emperor Huizong of Northern Song and former marshal in Hebei, was supported by former ministers of the Northern Song and thus was designated as emperor in Nanjin (south of present-day Shangqiu in Henan), reestablished the Song Dynasty, known as the Southern Song Dynasty. Emperor Gaozong did not adopt the suggestion of active resistance of his prime minister but passive defense. Consequently, discouraged, the Song fled to Hangzhou, and then southern of China, abandoning the Huai River valley and the Yangtze River under the pressure of the Jin forces. Not until the Jin troop were satisfied with the war booty they had required and withdrew to the north did Emperor Gao Zong come back to Hangzhou where he established the capital. Then, Hangzhou was renamed Lin'an.
> Its territorial boundaries in the north extended from the Huaishui, through Jingtang (present-day Tanghe in Henan), Deng (east of present-day Deng County in Henan) to Dasanguan (southwest of Baoji, Shaanxi) in the Qinling Mountain, bordering the Jin and in the southeast and southwest remained the same as those of the Northern Song. Jin controlled northern part of China, moved its capital to Yan, then, it was renamed Dadu, in order to control the Yellow River Valley easily.
> 
> The political system in the Southern Song generally followed its Northern Song counterparts. But the administrative organisations were streamlined and re-structured to accommodate the new practice of autocratic centralisation of power. The three secretariats and six departments of the former Northern Song Dynasty were merged in order to reduce the number of official posts and administrative organisations. But changes were not so drastic with respect to regional governments. Reforms were also introduced into the military system. Early in the Southern Song, the former Northern Song's Military Council was replaced with various bodies. But in 1131, the Military Council was restored to its position as the highest military body. At the same time, more military and paramilitary organisations were set up in regional areas to maintain order and to resist the Jin forces.
> 
> After the Southern Song became more politically stable, the social economy began to develop. Two-fifths smaller than Northern Song, the Southern Song's advanced agricultural techniques saw it reap rich harvests. To meet its military needs, the Southern Song paid great attention to weapon manufacturing, mining, metallurgy, and shipbuilding. As a result, the Southern Song surpassed the Northern Song in technique and scale of these industries.
> One noticeable cultural development during the Southern Song was the flourishing of moral science, especially the Neo-Confucianism which came to be the official ideology of the day.
> The Southern Song took some strategic defense measures which were quite successful. It strengthened its defensive forces in Shaanxi andSichuan. A complete system of defensive works was built to link the Yangtze River and the eastern bank of the Huai River midstream. It pursued a strategy of attacking the Central Plains with Jingxiang as its base to link up with Hesu. It also attached great importance to developing military hardware, reforming the military system and increasing the army's manpower. As a result, the situation became more favorable. However, the Southern Song pursued a policy of suing for peace and had no plan to recover the Central Plains. Moreover, its policy of appointing civil officials to control and restrain military officers greatly discouraged its generals and hindered the development of military strength. The measures taken in 1114 to deprive three great generals of their commanding power, to kill the outstanding anti-Jin general Yue Fei and to reduce the number of the soldiers led to its self-destruction. Consequently, the Southern Song went into decline.
> 
> After the emergence of the Mongols, the three powers in the north - the Mongols, the Western Xia and the Jin - constantly fought against each other. This should have been the best opportunity for the Southern Song to expand. But, its rulers, having adopted a self-defence strategy, took no action at all. It was not until the Western Xia vanished and the Jin, having lost most of its northern territories, turned to attack the Southern Song that the Southern Song was forced to fight. Although the Southern Song troops held the southward marching Jin army at bay, they also suffered heavy losses. Meanwhile the Mongolian forces entered the northern bank of the Yellow River, while the Southern Song no longer had any strength left to march north. Worse still, when the Jin was doomed, the Southern Song even made a decision to unite with the Mongols to resist the Jin, not knowing that it would soon follow the Jin's fate.
> 
> After the Yuan army captured Lin'an in 1276, the Southern Song Dynasty ended. Some of its ministers went south to Fujian and Guangdong to reestablish the mini-Song court which was short-lived, ending in 1279 at Yashan.
> 
> 
> Economy of the Song Dynasty
> 
> During the Song period, agriculture, handicrafts and commerce flourished. New cities sprang up. In agriculture, growing areas continuously increased. Tools of production were also improved. Tali, a laborsaving plough that could replace form cattle appeared, other farm implements, such as Yangma by which people could transplant thousands of beds of rice seedlings each day, water-powered and cattle-driven waterwheels started to be widely used. Improved rice, named Zhancheng Rice, was popularized and thus its output was greatly increased. In Northern Song period, there were nearly two ofr three hundred mines in whole country. With division of labor like panning, mining, boiling and refining, each miner had his own responsibility. The amount of iron then produced increased by a big margin. The smelting of copper, iron, lead and tin was very popular. The amount coal produced was considerable and excavating techniques were much improved. Great technological progress was also made in the mining of well salt in southwest China, resulting in the increasing of output.
> 
> The silk weaving was very flourishing in the northern Song Dynasty. The fine silk was as light as a mist. Overseas trade began to develop. Achievements in porcelain manufacture outshone all previous records and sold overseas.Among the famous kilns were Guanyao in Kaifeng, Ruyao in Ruzhou (now Linru County, Henan), Junyao in Yuzhou (now Henan), Dingyao in Dingzhou (now Hebei)and yueyao in Yuezhou (now Shaoxing, Zhejiang), which were jointly known as Five Famous Kilns. And shipbuilding, papermaking, sugar refining and tea processing had all made evident progress compared with those before. Flourishing commerce centers were found every where in the south as well as in the north, there were row upon row of shops and markets in the capital city and other big cities. With the collercial prosperity, the earliest paper currency called Jiaozi, started to be issued. Overseas trading in the Song was extraordinarily prosperous. A harbor administration, with its agency called Shibosi, took charge of foreign trade in such foreign trading ports as Guangzhoum Hangzhou, Mingzhou (now Ningbo, Zhejiang) and so forth. Thus the mumber of Korean, Japanese, Arabs and Persians who came to China to trade increased day after day. Gunpowder was widely used for military purposes.
> 
> Culture and Science of the Song Dynasty
> 
> During the Song period, science and technology made impressive strides. A host of thinkers, scholars and men of letters came to the fore. There was a boom in calligraphy, painting, sculpture and weaving art. Especially noteworthy are the inventions of the compass and movable type printing which have greatly contributed to human progress.
> In the area of Chinese literature, Ci poetry of the Song Dynasty enjoyed a high prestige. It originated from the Tang Dyansty and matured in the Five Dynasties, creation reached its summit in the Song Dynasty. Su Shi, Lu You, and Xin Qiji were famous Ci poets. Writing about a wide range of subjects and expressing bold and unrestrained feelings. Vernacular tales of the Song Dynasty, know as Hua Ben, originated from the master copies of those who engaged in storytelling and ballad singing, It dealt with such topics as classic, history and town life and thus exerted great influence on the novels of the Ming and Qing Dynasties.
> First imperial art academy in China was established during the Five Dynasty. But, during the Song Dynasty, art academy came to a time of great prosperity. There were different genre paintings appeared. The famous painters all had their own distinctive achievements, some of them famous for landscape, some of them famous for flowers and birds.
> 
> Famous calligraphers emerged in large numbers in the Song Dynasty. Su Shi, HuangTingjian, Mi Fu and Cai Xiang enjoyed a high prestige in the history of Chinese calligraphy.
> 
> Li Xue appeared in the Song Dynasty. Li Xue, also known as Dao Xue, was a Confucian school formed by Buddhism and Taoism. Compared with taditional Confucianism, it was a great change. Neo- Confucianism, one group of LiXue enjoyed high prestige during the later period of Song. In the following hundreds of years, its explanation and analysis on Confucian classics was set up as an official one and thus became an orthodox learning.


Read some books instead of relying on some random internet tourist site. 

Yea,no big results when there were yearly surpluses of money and extra supplies

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## Rent

I wanted you to see the perspective from a Chinese person, rather than coming from a Vietnamese person to see if you still continue to provoke an argument. 

It seems that you don't have that much faith in your history.


Grand Historian said:


> Read some books instead of relying on some random internet tourist site.
> 
> Yea,no big results when there were yearly surpluses of money and extra supplies

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I wanted you to see the perspective from a Chinese person, rather than coming from a Vietnamese person to see if you still continue to provoke an argument. I can show you more Chinese source or, if it helps,
> 
> It seems that you don't have that much faith in your history.


Internet tourist articles are not equivalent to works written by Sinologists.

My source quotes from the Song Shi as well as other Southern Song sources what does yours quote from?

You claimed the Song went bankrupt,now prove your assertion.

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## Rent

Then we both have the same sources with different interpretation on the collapse of Song.

From your understanding of reading Song Shi, do you see Song Dynasty being as strong as the other Han Dynasty? Don't you see Wang Anshi's reforms as being the turning point for the collapse of Song?

I recommend you read and compare poems of Song and Tang. Read Xu Xiang's poems from Song era.


Grand Historian said:


> Internet tourist articles are not equivalent to works written by Sinologists.
> 
> My source quotes from the Song Shi as well as other Southern Song sources what does yours quote from?
> 
> You claimed the Song went bankrupt,now prove your assertion.

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## StarCraft_ZT

Rent said:


> Then we both have the same sources with different interpretation on the collapse of Song.
> 
> From your understanding of reading Song Shi, do you see Song Dynasty being as strong as the other Han Dynasty? Don't you see Wang Anshi's reforms as being the turning point for the collapse of Song?
> 
> I recommend you read and compare poems of Song and Tang. Read Xu Xiang's poems from Song era.



What exactly is about Wang Anshi Reform? Why this reform turn to the collapse of Song? You just read a few Wikipedia, then you claim to know all of Chinese history? What a “genius”!

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> Then we both have the same sources with different interpretation on the collapse of Song.
> 
> From your understanding of reading Song Shi, do you see Song Dynasty being as strong as the other Han Dynasty? Don't you see Wang Anshi's reforms as being the turning point for the collapse of Song?
> 
> I recommend you read and compare poems of Song and Tang. Read Xu Xiang's poems from Song era.


You don't have the same source as me you use some random tourist website to "prove" your claims.

It was the emperor's policies that lead to the downfall of Northern Song not Wang Anshi.

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## Rent

Are you trying to debunk this history because Song Shi was compiled during the Yuan Dynasty? 

I would agree that the Song Emperor is to blame as much as Wang Anshi's reforms. What chapter are you on? Have you read the whole thing?


Grand Historian said:


> You don't have the same source as me you use some random tourist website to "prove" your claims.
> 
> It was the emperor's policies that lead to the downfall of Northern Song not Wang Anshi.


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## Rent

No StarCraft_ZT. You need to read Song Shi and see the different views from documents written in this era to understand what events caused the fall of Song.

For me, the main cause was Wang Anshi's reforms. However, Grand Historian believe it is the fault of the Song Emperor.


StarCraft_ZT said:


> What exactly is about Wang Anshi Reform? Why this reform turn to the collapse of Song? You just read a few Wikipedia, then you claim to know all of Chinese history? What a “genius”!

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> Are you trying to debunk this history because Song Shi was compiled during the Yuan Dynasty?
> 
> I would agree that the Song Emperor is to blame as much as Wang Anshi's reforms. What chapter are you on? Have you read the whole thing?


You're not even quoting from the Songshi,you're quoting from some random tourist website.

Wang Anshi's death and the humiliation of Jingkang are separated by span of 41 years,you don't seem to realize that Wang Anshi policies were distorted by his successors and misuse of funds.

You claim that the Song was bankrupted by Wang Anshi's policies which shows you clearly have no grasp on his reforms.

It was the emperor who decided to go to war not Wang Anshi.

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## Rent

@Grand Historian 
Here is a good article from the perspective of your fellow Chinese on why China's reforms all fail.
Why Do China’s Reforms All Fail? | The Diplomat

@StarCraft_ZT 
Here is a link if you wanted to learn of Wang Anshi's reforms. However, I recommend that you so read Song Shi to fully understand the events we are taking about. 
http://www.paulrittman.com/WangAnshiReformer.pdf

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> @Grand Historian
> Here is a good article from the perspective of your fellow Chinese on why China's reforms all fail.
> Why Do China’s Reforms All Fail? | The Diplomat
> 
> @StarCraft_ZT
> Here is a link if you wanted to learn of Wang Anshi's reforms. However, I recommend that you so read Song Shi to fully understand the events we are taking about.
> http://www.paulrittman.com/WangAnshiReformer.pdf


Your paper doesn't even back up your claim that the Baojia system crippled Song bureaucracy.

I already stated that Wang Anshi intended the Baojia system to save money not spend it.

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## Rent

With Baojia reform, the military size increased. This gave the emperor ambition to seek advices to go to war. The constant warfares depleted Song's treasury, which eventually weakened the government. 

Have you even read Song Shi? Do I need to do your homework for you?


Grand Historian said:


> Your paper doesn't even back up your claim that the Baojia system crippled Song bureaucracy.
> 
> I already stated that Wang Anshi intended the Baojia system to save money not spend it.

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## Rent

@Grand Historian,

I quote here two phrases below used during Northern Song that shows why their military can not protect them from invasions on the frontier.

“Emphasize the civil, de‐emphasize the military” (重文輕武).

“Removing military command over a cup of wine” (杯酒 釋兵權).

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> With Baojia reform, the military size increased. This gave the emperor ambition to seek advices to go to war. The constant warfares depleted Song's treasury, which eventually weakened the government.
> 
> Have you even read Song Shi? Do I need to do your homework for you?


Are you daft?

The main intention of the Baojia reforms was intended to safeguard against rebels as well as provide as a defense against external enemies,the second was to gradually replace the Song mercenary army.

Shenzong decided to go to war after Wang Anshi retired,Wang Anshi didn't want to squander the troops against external enemies he wanted to build up money to rejuvenate the Song military and economy. 

You claimed the Baojia system bankrupted the Song, and that the Song used that excuse to invade others.

Baojia system =/= military campaigns.

Even with the constant wars the Song never went bankrupt.



Rent said:


> @Grand Historian,
> 
> I quote here two phrases below used during Northern Song that shows why their military can not protect them from invasions on the frontier.
> 
> “Emphasize the civil, de‐emphasize the military” (重文輕武).
> 
> “Removing military command over a cup of wine” (杯酒 釋兵權).


While having horrible leaders does ruin wars this doesn't make the troops weak,the loss of elite troop during campaigns against XiXia was one issue.

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## Jlaw

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Is Nanning under China or Vietnam?
> 
> How you didn't succeed to grab our land?


Vietnamese kick Chinese *** in 1044 b.c.--viet logic for debate.


Grand Historian said:


> You're not even quoting from the Songshi,you're quoting from some random tourist website.
> 
> Wang Anshi's death and the humiliation of Jingkang are separated by span of 41 years,you don't seem to realize that Wang Anshi policies were distorted by his successors and misuse of funds.
> 
> You claim that the Song was bankrupted by Wang Anshi's policies which shows you clearly have no grasp on his reforms.
> 
> It was the emperor who decided to go to war not Wang Anshi.


Bro, these viet monkeys should pay you for history lessons, it's informative. How can they even try and debate Chinese history without ability to read Chinese.

Pinoy appear smarter than Viets.


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## Grand Historian

Jlaw said:


> Bro, these viet monkeys should pay you for history lessons, it's informative. How can they even try and debate Chinese history without ability to read Chinese.
> 
> Pinoy appear smarter than Viets.


The issue isn't that they can't read Classical Chinese,the issue is that they don't source their claims or they cherry pick the texts.


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## xesy

East Lake said:


> You guys really need to stop arguing...
> 
> I have a question. Who is the most revered ancient Vietnamese figure? I know there are Ho Chi Minh, but he is very recent.


I guess there are Hung Dao King Tran Quoc Tuan (or commonly known as Tran Hung Dao) and Quang Trung King Nguyen Hue. The first was the hero leading VNese fought against Mongolian/ Yuan invasions at their prime, while the later lead VN to victory against both Siam and Qing one after another (his legendary march from South VN to North VN is often talked about today). There are also other heroes like Ly Thuong Kiet, Le Loi, Ngo Quyen etc.

BTW is this your new account? I remember there is another East Lake mem around PDF a while ago.

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## Rent

It is apparent that you can not comprehend well. Baojia system failed to do what it was set up to do. It did not work. 

Constant warfare depleted the Song treasury. How many times do I have to repeat this?

Again, I advise you to read Song Shi again. 




Grand Historian said:


> Are you daft?
> 
> The main intention of the Baojia reforms was intended to safeguard against rebels as well as provide as a defense against external enemies,the second was to gradually replace the Song mercenary army.
> 
> Shenzong decided to go to war after Wang Anshi retired,Wang Anshi didn't want to squander the troops against external enemies he wanted to build up money to rejuvenate the Song military and economy.
> 
> You claimed the Baojia system bankrupted the Song, and that the Song used that excuse to invade others.
> 
> Baojia system =/= military campaigns.
> 
> Even with the constant wars the Song never went bankrupt.
> 
> 
> While having horrible leaders does ruin wars this doesn't make the troops weak,the loss of elite troop during campaigns against XiXia was one issue.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> It is apparent that you can not comprehend well. Baojia system failed to do what it was set up to do. It did not work.
> 
> Constant warfare depleted the Song treasury. How many times do I have to repeat this?
> 
> Again, I advise you to read Song Shi again.


You conflate two entirely different concepts,the Baojia system is not equivalent to waging wars.

How does depleting the treasury turn into bankruptcy,you're not even consistent with your wild claims.

You claimed the Song waged war to recover money from the Baojia system now when I confront you all you is say read the Song Shi.

There are many other Song era sources the Cambridge History of China quotes from,you haven't shown me a single quote from the Song Shi instead you use Vietnamese sources to prove that Wang Anshi instigated the Song Ly war.


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## NiceGuy

East Lake said:


> You guys really need to stop arguing...
> 
> I have a question. Who is the most revered ancient Vietnamese figure? I know there are Ho Chi Minh, but he is very recent.


Its Gen. Tran Hung Dao in Tran dynasty, he helped Great Viet (Dai Viet) defeat mighty Mongol 3 times.


> Trần Hưng Đạo (1228–1300) was the Supreme Commander of Vietnam during the Trần Dynasty.[1][2] Born Prince Trần Quốc Tuấn (陳國峻), he commanded the Đại Việt armies that repelled three major Mongol invasions in the 13th century.[3] His triple victories over the mighty Mongol Yuan Dynasty under Kublai Khan are considered among the greatest military feats in world history. General Trần Hưng Đạo’s military brilliance and prowess are reflected in many warfare treatises that he authored. Trần Hưng Đạo is regarded as one of the most accomplished military tacticians in history.
> Trần Hưng Đạo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> You conflate two entirely different concepts,the Baojia system is not equivalent to waging wars.
> 
> How does depleting the treasury turn into bankruptcy,you're not even consistent with your wild claims.
> 
> You claimed the Song waged war to recover money from the Baojia system now when I confront you all you is say read the Song Shi.
> 
> There are many other Song era sources the Cambridge History of China quotes from,you haven't shown me a single quote from the Song Shi instead you use Vietnamese sources to prove that Wang Anshi instigated the Song Ly war.



I don't believe I am doing your home work for you. 

Do you have the Song History written by Li Tao? If so read volume 275.


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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I don't believe I am doing your home work for you.
> 
> Do you have the Song History written by Li Tao? If so read volume 275.


How pathetic just like your other claims you don't back it up when I ask for the quote.


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## Rent

Grand Historian said:


> How pathetic just like your other claims you don't back it up when I ask for the quote.


I see you don't have Song Shi. If you do, you would know.

@Grand Historian,

Do you need me to get you a copy?


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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I see you don't have Song Shi. If you do, you would know.
> 
> @Grand Historian,
> 
> Do you need me to get you a copy?


The burden of proof is on you,you made the claims and somehow I have to do your research for you.

The 24 histories are quite accessible,you're just being lazy.


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## Rent

If you recall, that was the argument between you and dichoi.

I only offered to help you analyze the Wang Anshi's reforms, which I did already, however, you only wanted to provoke an argument with me.

I spent several hours searching through it already. All you need to do is read it. 



Grand Historian said:


> The burden of proof is on you,you made the claims and somehow I have to do your research for you.
> 
> The 24 histories are quite accessible,you're just being lazy.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> If you recall, that was the argument between you and dichoi.
> 
> I only offered to help you analyze the Wang Anshi's reforms, which I did already, however, you only wanted to provoke an argument with me.
> 
> I spent several hours searching through it already. All you need to do is read it.


dichoi never quotes anything substantial a trait that you seem to have as well.

You made the claims,its that simple you either have the proof to back up your assertions or you if you can't just say so.

You gave me a tourist website and a paper by some random person named Paul Rittman none of which quotes any sources.

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## Rent

That article isn't from a Chinese guy? No wonder you continued to argue.

I am not going sit here and write your essay for you. If you would have copied that article for your work, your professor will know where you got it from. Also, I wanted you to see from another person that share the same view regarding The fall of Song. It is as good as any article out there.

If you don't have the History of the Song, just say so. I won't blame you. We (@dichoi and I) know and that good enough for us. We don't have to proof anything. If you want to know, research it for yourself.

Do you need me to send you a copy?


Grand Historian said:


> dichoi never quotes anything substantial a trait that you seem to have as well.
> 
> You made the claims,its that simple you either have the proof to back up your assertions or you if you can't just say so.
> 
> You gave me a tourist website and a paper by some random person named Paul Rittman none of which quotes any sources.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> That article isn't from a Chinese guy? No wonder you continued to argue.
> 
> I am not going sit here and write your essay for you. If you would have copied that article for your work, your professor will know where you got it from. Also, I wanted you to see from another person that share the same view regarding The fall of Song. It is as good as any article out there.
> 
> If you don't have the History of the Song, just say so. I won't blame you. We (@dichoi and I) know and that good enough for us. We don't have to proof anything. If you want to know, research it for yourself.
> 
> Do you need me to send you a copy?


Yawn,another Vietnamese who cries I'm racist against non Chinese works when I use Western sources to supplement Chinese ones,really if you weren't so academically incompetent we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

Why are you even trying to defend you sources,The Fall of the Song doesn't even have an author and is written for tourists.

What are the credentials of Paul Rittman?

If I don't have have access to the Song Shi then why did I bother using it as a source for the siege of Yongzhou?

Do you or do you not understand what burden of proof is?


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## Rent

I already gave you the volume number and the Historian's name. If you've read the history, then you would have known what we claim is true. If you possess a copy of it, then it would be easy for you to find it. That is my burden of proof. 

I suggest that you read the whole history rather than cherry pick from internet sources.

Although I don't know who Paul is, I can vouch for the content of his work.


Grand Historian said:


> Yawn,another Vietnamese who cries I'm racist against non Chinese works when I use Western sources to supplement Chinese ones,really if you weren't so academically incompetent we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> Why are you even trying to defend you sources,The Fall of the Song doesn't even have an author and is written for tourists.
> 
> What are the credentials of Paul Rittman?
> 
> If I don't have have access to the Song Shi then why did I bother using it as a source for the siege of Yongzhou?
> 
> Do you or do you not understand what burden of proof is?

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## Aepsilons

Rent said:


> I already gave you the volume number and the Historian's name. If you've read the history, then you would have known what we claim is true. If you possess a copy of it, then it would be easy for you to find it. That is my burden of proof.
> 
> I suggest that you read the whole history rather than cherry pick from internet sources.
> 
> Although I don't know who Paul is, I can vouch for the content of his work.



I think he's purposely going around the subject, @Rent - San.

He's arguing for sake of argument , without even reading the content. 

A shame.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I already gave you the volume number and the Historian's name. If you've read the history, then you would have known what we claim is true. If you possess a copy of it, then it would be easy for you to find it. That is my burden of proof.
> 
> I suggest that you read the whole history rather than cherry pick from internet sources.
> 
> Although I don't know who Paul is, I can vouch for the content of his work.


That isn't proving anything,quote the passage in the Song Shi.

Quiet rich coming from you,you use 2 random internet sources to back up your assertions while I have used the Cambridge History of China.

How can you vouch for Paul when you don't even know his credentials?



Nihonjin1051 said:


> I think he's purposely going around the subject, @Rent - San.


Seems like you don't understand what burden of proof is,if you make the claim then you need a solid foundation to back it up otherwise its just hearsay.

Considering how you make unfounded claims all the time I'm not surprised by your attitude.


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## Aepsilons

Too much accusations. Empty talk. Some people's posts are bereft of any content worthy of note.

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## Grand Historian

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Too much accusations. Empty talk.


Not my fault that neither you or Rent can comprehend what burden of proof means.


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## Rent

So you only have the Cambridge version. You know that the translation is not to its exact meaning. No wonder you don't have a clue as to what you were arguing about. And there I thought you were having difficulty reading formal script as I try to help you understand. 
In that case, you need to get the Li Tao's History of the Song before provoking an argument with others in this forum.


Grand Historian said:


> That isn't proving anything,quote the passage in the Song Shi.
> 
> Quiet rich coming from you,you use 2 random internet sources to back up your assertions while I have used the Cambridge History of China.
> 
> 
> Seems like you don't understand what burden of proof is,if you make the claim then you need a solid foundation to back it up otherwise its just hearsay.

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## Aepsilons

Hi @Rent,


One area of interest I had in my undergraduate years was the the discourse on Fengjian system of Chinese antiquity. Its interesting that after the rebellion of An Lushan , there were political theorists during the Northern Song period that touted that the concept of Fengjian was rather anachronistic. These said political theorists influenced the statesmen and literati of the Northern Song Epoch and this led to the support of the Imperial Vision of centralization and interventionist policies that would define succeeding Imperial Dynasties. The Yuan implemented the same concept in their foreign policies as seen during their punitive expedition to the Kingdom of Singhasari in present day Java. The 2 failed invasions in Japan was also an example of the political lit that the Yuan Ruling Elite borrowed from the Song literati. 





Your view?


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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> So you only have the Cambridge version. You know that the translation is not to its exact meaning. No wonder you don't have a clue as to what you were arguing about. And there I thought you were having difficulty reading formal script as I try to help you understand.
> In that case, you need to get the Li Tao's History of the Song before provoking an argument with others in this forum.


Your views on the Cambridge History of China clearly show you have never even read it,its far from being a translation.

I have already shown the ability to comprehend and translate Classical Chinese numerous times on this forum you on the other hand have shown nothing.

I suppose you have the credentials to best Paul Jakov Smith and Ari Daniel Levine?

I already showed you the biography of Su Jian in the Song Shi if I didn't have access to it why would I bother referencing it?

My arguments are based off the Cambridge History of China as well as the Song Shi while you rely on random internet articles and your refusal to source your claims.


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## Rent

I have read a few chapters but did not buy a copy for myself because it is not the same as Li Tao's work, which was compiled during this Dynasty in 1114

Now, I shall ask you for your burden of proof to prove our claim otherwise.

Did the Cambridge version forget to translate this part?


Grand Historian said:


> Your views on the Cambridge History of China clearly show you have never even read it,its far from being a translation.
> 
> I have already shown the ability to comprehend and translate Classical Chinese numerous times on this forum you on the other hand have shown nothing.
> 
> I suppose you have the credentials to best Paul Jakov Smith and Ari Daniel Levine?
> 
> I already showed you the biography of Su Jian in the Song Shi if I didn't have access to it why would I bother referencing it?
> 
> My arguments are based off the Cambridge History of China as well as the Song Shi while you rely on random internet articles and your refusal to source your claims.

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## Grand Historian

Rent said:


> I have read a few chapters but did not buy a copy for myself because it is not the same as Li Tao's work, which was compiled during this Dynasty in 1114
> 
> Now, I shall ask you for your burden of proof to prove our claim otherwise.
> 
> Did the Cambridge version forget to translate this part?


So I'm supposed to provide burden of proof for you inability to source quality sources what kind of logic is this?

On the wealth the reforms generated.

In 1076 the government spent only 6.4 million strings of the 10.4 million strings it collected in service exemption fees, for a surplus of 4 million strings. At the same time, the fund contained 8.5 million strings of unused “current funds” (hsientsai)
– in some circuits equal to an entire year’s income – built up through underspending and the accumulation of surplus emergency fees (k’uan-sheng chien) up to 1076. The winery and ferry account was equally well capitalized, with an income of 2.1 million units (primarily cash) over expenditures(1.7 million units). pg 426

In 1084 the government collected or held 18,729,300 million strings in service exemption fees, and 5,050,090 strings in wine and ferry fees. The transformation of the hired service policy into a mechanism of revenue extraction was complete. pg 426

Like all monopolies, however, the state trade agency was extremely profitable. For the single year of the tenth month of 1076 to the tenth month of 1077, the state trade agency reported net returns (hsi-ch’ien) of 1.41 million strings of cash, a return of 28 percent on its basic capitalization of 5 million strings at that time.By 1085 the basic capitalization had more than doubled,
to 12.26 million strings, which at the same rate of return should have yielded 3.45 million strings in interest. pg 433

We can be more precise about the profitability of the New Policies as a whole, which very significantly enriched government coffers. One historian estimates that in 1077 the major revenue measures – state trade, green sprouts,
and hired service – added an extra 18 million strings, or 33 percent, to the 54 million strings of cash obtained through traditional currency sources. Other than state trade, this new currency stream was collected almost entirely from the agricultural sector of the economy. pg 433

By the end of 1076,the Court of Agricultural Supervision (Ssu-nung ssu) had built up a surplus of
unspent reserves (hsien-tsai ch’ien) from the rural credit, service exemption, and winery and ferry franchise funds totaling 49.9 million mixed units, including 27.7 million strings of cash. pg 434


Debunking your accusation that the Song-XiXia wars made the Song go bankrupt:

For Shen-tsung these hoards were to be the life’s blood of his campaign against the Tanguts. And though the Tangut war of 1081–3 exacted an enormous toll in money and men, New Policies revenues were so robust that imperial treasuries remained full into the next reign period. pg 434


Debunking your claims that Wang Anshi was to blame for Tangut wars when Shenzong was at the helm:

As a young man Shen-tsung was fixated on recovering the northern territories occupied by the Tanguts and the Khitan, and he ascended the throne in 1067 eager to wage offensive wars. In Shen-tsung’s mind, recovering the northlands
was the raison d’ˆetre of the New Policies, and so it is ironic that only Wang An-shih, the architect of the New Policies, was able to restrain the emperor’s irredentist ambitions. pg 464-465

Wang put this prudent view to effect in a series of border issues that embroiled the two empires between
1072 and 1076, when he consistently sought to preserve peace, even where peace meant adopting a compliant attitude toward the Liao. pg 465

But in practice Wang preached a cautious approach to the Tanguts as well. Wang’s real views were revealed in 1070, after Sung incursions into Tangut territory had provoked retaliatory attacks in Ching-y¨uan circuit:
"What if we show a strong front to the [Tanguts] and they decline to obey; how will the court then deal with them? We are not now strong enough to match troops (chiao-ping) with them; and if we do not match troops, then what else can we do? It would be most inappropriate if we first put up a show of strength and are then forced to humble ourselves. Under the current circumstances, we should make a point of being accommodating (jou) toward [the Hsia]; by being accommodating we are least likely to miscalculate." pg 466


Wang Anshi wanted to annex Tibetan territories instead and some northwestern territories:

What then did Wang offer an emperor whose motivating ambition was to recover the lost territories of the north? In brief, he offered Shen-tsung a policy of expansion, colonization, and economic exploitation in the frontier regions of Hunan and Szechwan, and in the Tibetan tribal lands of the Tsinghai and Kansu region. pg 466


Wang Anshi advocated war when the Ly dynasty overstepped its boundaries:

In late 1075, Annamese troops attacked walled towns across the border in Kuang-nan West, searching for rebels harbored
by the Chinese. In addition, the Annamese claimed they were on a mission of mercy, “to save the people from the green sprouts and service exemption policies of the Middle Kingdom.” Taking this as a personal affront, Wang An-shih persuaded the emperor to launch a punitive expedition, for which he personally wrote the proclamation.pg 468


The blame on the fall of the Song dynasty in traditional works is mainly Cai Jing and his cronies as well as Huizong's emphasis on Taoism:

Judgments of the Hui-tsung era have tended toward high levels of generalization,for the documentary record of his reign poses a minefield of historiographic problems. Foremost of these issues is the moralistic praise-and-blame
bias of traditional Chinese historiography. In the standard dynastic histories of the Sung, and in privately compiled works of historiography, Hui-tsung and his long-serving chief councilor Ts’ai Ching (1046–1127) have been held responsible for a litany of crimes against the moral and territorial integrity of the state. Ts’ai and his fellow state councilors, pejoratively referred to as the “Six Felons” (liu tsei), were blamed for prosecuting the most sweeping factional
purge in Sung history, allowing governmental corruption to run rampant, and pushing the subjects of the empire toward impoverishment and rebellion. In the judgment of posterity, the greatest crime of these so-called felonious ministers
was their bungling of border diplomacy and military strategy, which precipitated the Jurchen Chin invasion, the sack of K’ai-feng, and the fall of the north. pg 557

In traditional historiography, the extravagance of Hui-tsung’s court and his promotion of religious Taoism are interpreted as harbingers of dynastic collapse. Hui-tsung is portrayed as a Neronic figure who frolicked in his sumptuous
pleasure gardens while the empire was impoverished, eventually succumbing to rebellion from within and conquest from without. And by declaring the Divine Empyrean sect of Taoism to be the state religion, the emperor invited
the moralistic scorn of later historians. pg 602

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## Rent

I must say the Cambridge version seems to be very decent. I will get myself a copy of this as well. Thank you.

Stay in school and don't do drugs.


Grand Historian said:


> So I'm supposed to provide burden of proof for you inability to source quality sources what kind of logic is this?
> 
> On the wealth the reforms generated.
> 
> In 1076 the government spent only 6.4 million strings of the 10.4 million strings it collected in service exemption fees, for a surplus of 4 million strings. At the same time, the fund contained 8.5 million strings of unused “current funds” (hsientsai)
> – in some circuits equal to an entire year’s income – built up through underspending and the accumulation of surplus emergency fees (k’uan-sheng chien) up to 1076. The winery and ferry account was equally well capitalized, with an income of 2.1 million units (primarily cash) over expenditures(1.7 million units). pg 426
> 
> In 1084 the government collected or held 18,729,300 million strings in service exemption fees, and 5,050,090 strings in wine and ferry fees. The transformation of the hired service policy into a mechanism of revenue extraction was complete. pg 426
> 
> Like all monopolies, however, the state trade agency was extremely profitable. For the single year of the tenth month of 1076 to the tenth month of 1077, the state trade agency reported net returns (hsi-ch’ien) of 1.41 million strings of cash, a return of 28 percent on its basic capitalization of 5 million strings at that time.By 1085 the basic capitalization had more than doubled,
> to 12.26 million strings, which at the same rate of return should have yielded 3.45 million strings in interest. pg 433
> 
> We can be more precise about the profitability of the New Policies as a whole, which very significantly enriched government coffers. One historian estimates that in 1077 the major revenue measures – state trade, green sprouts,
> and hired service – added an extra 18 million strings, or 33 percent, to the 54 million strings of cash obtained through traditional currency sources. Other than state trade, this new currency stream was collected almost entirely from the agricultural sector of the economy. pg 433
> 
> By the end of 1076,the Court of Agricultural Supervision (Ssu-nung ssu) had built up a surplus of
> unspent reserves (hsien-tsai ch’ien) from the rural credit, service exemption, and winery and ferry franchise funds totaling 49.9 million mixed units, including 27.7 million strings of cash. pg 434
> 
> 
> Debunking your accusation that the Song-XiXia wars made the Song go bankrupt:
> 
> For Shen-tsung these hoards were to be the life’s blood of his campaign against the Tanguts. And though the Tangut war of 1081–3 exacted an enormous toll in money and men, New Policies revenues were so robust that imperial treasuries remained full into the next reign period. pg 434
> 
> 
> Debunking your claims that Wang Anshi was to blame for Tangut wars when Shenzong was at the helm:
> 
> As a young man Shen-tsung was fixated on recovering the northern territories occupied by the Tanguts and the Khitan, and he ascended the throne in 1067 eager to wage offensive wars. In Shen-tsung’s mind, recovering the northlands
> was the raison d’ˆetre of the New Policies, and so it is ironic that only Wang An-shih, the architect of the New Policies, was able to restrain the emperor’s irredentist ambitions. pg 464-465
> 
> Wang put this prudent view to effect in a series of border issues that embroiled the two empires between
> 1072 and 1076, when he consistently sought to preserve peace, even where peace meant adopting a compliant attitude toward the Liao. pg 465
> 
> But in practice Wang preached a cautious approach to the Tanguts as well. Wang’s real views were revealed in 1070, after Sung incursions into Tangut territory had provoked retaliatory attacks in Ching-y¨uan circuit:
> "What if we show a strong front to the [Tanguts] and they decline to obey; how will the court then deal with them? We are not now strong enough to match troops (chiao-ping) with them; and if we do not match troops, then what else can we do? It would be most inappropriate if we first put up a show of strength and are then forced to humble ourselves. Under the current circumstances, we should make a point of being accommodating (jou) toward [the Hsia]; by being accommodating we are least likely to miscalculate." pg 466
> 
> 
> Wang Anshi wanted to annex Tibetan territories instead and some northwestern territories:
> 
> What then did Wang offer an emperor whose motivating ambition was to recover the lost territories of the north? In brief, he offered Shen-tsung a policy of expansion, colonization, and economic exploitation in the frontier regions of Hunan and Szechwan, and in the Tibetan tribal lands of the Tsinghai and Kansu region. pg 466
> 
> 
> Wang Anshi advocated war when the Ly dynasty overstepped its boundaries:
> 
> In late 1075, Annamese troops attacked walled towns across the border in Kuang-nan West, searching for rebels harbored
> by the Chinese. In addition, the Annamese claimed they were on a mission of mercy, “to save the people from the green sprouts and service exemption policies of the Middle Kingdom.” Taking this as a personal affront, Wang An-shih persuaded the emperor to launch a punitive expedition, for which he personally wrote the proclamation.pg 468
> 
> 
> The blame on the fall of the Song dynasty in traditional works is mainly Cai Jing and his cronies as well as Huizong's emphasis on Taoism:
> 
> Judgments of the Hui-tsung era have tended toward high levels of generalization,for the documentary record of his reign poses a minefield of historiographic problems. Foremost of these issues is the moralistic praise-and-blame
> bias of traditional Chinese historiography. In the standard dynastic histories of the Sung, and in privately compiled works of historiography, Hui-tsung and his long-serving chief councilor Ts’ai Ching (1046–1127) have been held responsible for a litany of crimes against the moral and territorial integrity of the state. Ts’ai and his fellow state councilors, pejoratively referred to as the “Six Felons” (liu tsei), were blamed for prosecuting the most sweeping factional
> purge in Sung history, allowing governmental corruption to run rampant, and pushing the subjects of the empire toward impoverishment and rebellion. In the judgment of posterity, the greatest crime of these so-called felonious ministers
> was their bungling of border diplomacy and military strategy, which precipitated the Jurchen Chin invasion, the sack of K’ai-feng, and the fall of the north. pg 557
> 
> In traditional historiography, the extravagance of Hui-tsung’s court and his promotion of religious Taoism are interpreted as harbingers of dynastic collapse. Hui-tsung is portrayed as a Neronic figure who frolicked in his sumptuous
> pleasure gardens while the empire was impoverished, eventually succumbing to rebellion from within and conquest from without. And by declaring the Divine Empyrean sect of Taoism to be the state religion, the emperor invited
> the moralistic scorn of later historians. pg 602


----------



## Rent

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Hi @Rent,
> 
> One area of interest I had in my undergraduate years was the the discourse on Fengjian system of Chinese antiquity. Its interesting that after the rebellion of An Lushan , there were political theorists during the Northern Song period that touted that the concept of Fengjian was rather anachronistic. These said political theorists influenced the statesmen and literati of the Northern Song Epoch and this led to the support of the Imperial Vision of centralization and interventionist policies that would define succeeding Imperial Dynasties. The Yuan implemented the same concept in their foreign policies as seen during their punitive expedition to the Kingdom of Singhasari in present day Java. The 2 failed invasions in Japan was also an example of the political lit that the Yuan Ruling Elite borrowed from the Song literati.
> 
> 
> Your view?



Dear Nihonjin1051-San,

The way I see it is that Yuan adopted the Confucians way of thinking but failed to put it to practice before conquering China. They borrowed the system of the Han but failed to implement it correctly after conquering China. In my view, by placing people knowledgable of the system at the bottom of the ladder prevented this system to function as it should. Mongols were skilled at land warfares on horseback, but lacked naval warfare knowledge and diplomatic skills. There were also no check system in place to audit corrupted officials.

Mongols traditions and habits were hard to break. They would have been better off keeping their exiting Mongol system and allow their newly acquired citizen to slowly adapt to them. This government, then, can slowly change and shift as necessary to meet its needs, slowly absorbing Han's philosophies into the Mongolian's system of governance, allowing few capable scholars to rise into suitable positions within its regime. This government should focus on economic growth, its citizens and defense to strengthen itself rather than impulsive invasions into unfamiliar warfares.

After Kublai and his son's reign, the next generations of Yuan Emperors were consider to Mongols to be the illegitimate ruler of the vast Mongolian Empire. This left a huge gap in common understanding and shared ideologies, a break in the chain of orders between the ruling class and the Han class since the Mongolian and Semuren class were never fully sinicized to adapt to the Han system. With this lost of connection, there were no cohesiveness among officials. The new generation of Yuan Emperors were powerless in maintaining orders within their court. Yuan's government subsequently became unstable, which is evidenced to their vulnerability to corruptions and rebellions.

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## Rent

xesy said:


> I guess there are Hung Dao King Tran Quoc Tuan (or commonly known as Tran Hung Dao) and Quang Trung King Nguyen Hue. The first was the hero leading VNese fought against Mongolian/ Yuan invasions at their prime, while the later lead VN to victory against both Siam and Qing one after another (his legendary march from South VN to North VN is often talked about today). There are also other heroes like Ly Thuong Kiet, Le Loi, Ngo Quyen etc.
> 
> BTW is this your new account? I remember there is another East Lake mem around PDF a while ago.


It is quite amusing for a person to use a book written 830 years later to claim they have "debunked" a history encyclopedia compiled during the dynasty.

Anyhow, my favorite is Lê Lợi. I like the legend behind it, with the Thuan Thien sword and the Lake of Returned Sword.

@dichoi, who is your favorite?


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## East Lake

xesy said:


> I guess there are Hung Dao King Tran Quoc Tuan (or commonly known as Tran Hung Dao) and Quang Trung King Nguyen Hue. The first was the hero leading VNese fought against Mongolian/ Yuan invasions at their prime, while the later lead VN to victory against both Siam and Qing one after another (his legendary march from South VN to North VN is often talked about today). There are also other heroes like Ly Thuong Kiet, Le Loi, Ngo Quyen etc.
> 
> BTW is this your new account? I remember there is another East Lake mem around PDF a while ago.



I've had this account for a little time. I was recommended by a friend to talk to other Indians like him about Asia. I left because this website is mainly for boys and too many arguments, which is very sad.

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## Rent

East Lake said:


> I've had this account for a little time. I was recommended by a friend to talk to other Indians like him about Asia. I left because this website is mainly for boys and too many arguments, which is very sad.


I am sorry you feel this way.

I agree, there are too many people intentionally trying to provoke arguments with others.


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## Viet

East Lake said:


> Trolled? Meaning? I don't know about that, sorry.
> 西湖 is Western Lake. 东湖 is East Lake. My family come from* 山东*. You know a little bit Chinese? It's very good!


are you a girl from shandong? cool.


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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> are you a girl from shandong? cool.



Does your wife know you usually strike up a conversation with different girls without her consent?


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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> Does your wife know you usually strike up a conversation with different girls without her consent?


no, and you? does your girlfriend know what you do on this forum?


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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> no, and you? does your girlfriend know what you do on this forum?



She doesn't know either.

Can you post a photo of your wife, is she beautiful? I'm curious.


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## dichoi

Rent said:


> It is quite amusing for a person to use a book written 830 years later to claim they have "debunked" a history encyclopedia compiled during the dynasty.
> 
> Anyhow, my favorite is Lê Lợi. I like the legend behind it, with the Thuan Thien sword and the Lake of Returned Sword.
> 
> @dichoi, who is your favorite?



Of course, I'm with a little bit regionalism.

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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> She doesn't know either.
> 
> *Can you post a photo of your wife*, is she beautiful? I'm curious.


are you nuts?
okay, I can tell you she has some similarities to this beauty

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## dichoi

Viet said:


> are you a girl from shandong? cool.



Shandong girl (Qi Guo woman) beauty is very famous in China's history. " Đẹp như con gái nước Tề" --- " as beautiful as Qi Guo girls". It is the proverb in ancient China.

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## Rechoice

dichoi said:


> Shandong girl (Qi Guo woman) beauty is very famous in China's history. " Đẹp như con gái nước Tề" --- " as beautiful as Qi Guo girls". It is the proverb in ancient China.



your avatar girl is beautifully too.


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## Viet

Jlaw said:


> Vietnamese kick Chinese *** in 1044 b.c.--viet logic for debate.
> 
> Bro, these viet *monkeys *should pay you for history lessons, it's informative. How can they even try and debate Chinese history without ability to read Chinese.
> 
> Pinoy appear smarter than Viets.


I wonder why you moron love to resort to insulting. this thread is about VN, not CN. the topic of discussion is slipped to your country by reasons. we can change the discussion.

Grand Historian, I don´t have access to original vietnamese sources, why we decided to strike pre-emptively on the Song army in South China. My best guess is we had reasons to do so, considering China supported the hostilities of the Kingdoms of Champa and Khmer against Vietnam. the likelyhood was high we faced the possibility of a three-front war. Look at the map: we were surrounded by China in the north, and Champa/Khmer in the south. What would you do if you were in our place?

Champa was our nemesis. the army of Champa launched 10 invasions into Dai Viet. Did China do anything to help Vietnam? No.

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## 风之南国

Rechoice said:


> your avatar girl is beautifully too.



May I ask how many people in Vietnam's army?


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## Rent

dichoi said:


> Of course, I'm a little bit regionalism.


I see. Any hero from the old past?
@Viet ,@Rechoice? Yours?


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## Viet

风之南国 said:


> May I ask how many people in Vietnam's army?


nobody knows for sure. I guess 500,000 men/women standing army, and 3,000,000 reserves.


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## 风之南国

Viet said:


> nobody knows for sure. I guess 500,000 men/women standing army, and 3,000,000 reserves.


You guerrilla tactics are still very powerful, in 79 years, when Chinese forces attacked very difficult


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## Viet

Rent said:


> I see. Any hero from the old past?
> @Viet ,@Rechoice? Yours?


Trần Hưng Đạo, the man who crushed the Mongol invasion fleet in year 1284 at the red river.


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## 风之南国

Viet said:


> Trần Hưng Đạo, the man who crushed the Mongol invasion fleet in year 1284 at the red river.
> View attachment 81513


Mongolians do not understand naval.


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## Rechoice

Rent said:


> I see. Any hero from the old past?
> @Viet ,@Rechoice? Yours?




Trung sister.


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## mrfly911

风之南国 said:


> Mongolians do not understand naval.


Yes, but the Yuan dynasty have the Chinese in their navy. They also attacked Champa, Java, Japan by navy.


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## 风之南国

mrfly911 said:


> Yes, but the Yuan dynasty have the Chinese in their navy. They also attacked Champa, Java, Japan by navy.


Mongolian decline now, they do not have the military strength. I appreciate the Vietnamese army, you are not want to attack the Republic of China Taiping Island?


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## mrfly911

风之南国 said:


> Mongolian decline now, they do not have the military strength. I appreciate the Vietnamese army, you are not want to attack the Republic of China Taiping Island?







IMHO, VN don't want to conflict with ROC Taiwan at this time.


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## 风之南国

mrfly911 said:


> View attachment 81622
> 
> IMHO, VN don't want to conflict with ROC Taiwan at this time.


Vietnam will go to war with China and do you personal thoughts?



Rechoice said:


> Trung sister.
> 
> View attachment 81581


Please tell us the story of this picture it


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## Rechoice

风之南国 said:


> Vietnam will go to war with China and do you personal thoughts?
> 
> 
> Please tell us the story of this picture it



Pls to read more here. Trưng Sisters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Rent

Thank for all your responses. Hay dung vat ao cho nguoi xem lung.

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## mrfly911

风之南国 said:


> Vietnam will go to war with China and do you personal thoughts


Hehe, I don't like war 
But I think if the war comes, China will be the attacker and VN will be the defender.


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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> are you nuts?
> okay, I can tell you she has some similarities to this beauty



I can also say, my girl friend looks like some movie stars. Why do you call me nuts? I am just curious!


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## xesy

Viet said:


> nobody knows for sure. I guess 500,000 men/women standing army, and 3,000,000 reserves.


Officially, the number is around 300,000 regular troops, with 8 millions in reserve. Airforce is the lowest, with only around 30,000. Second is the navy with around 80,000 men and the biggest group is ground forces. Also there are around 250,000 - 300,000 men and women serve in the half-armed forces (police, customer and border guards)


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## Rent

xesy said:


> Officially, the number is around 300,000 regular troops, with 8 millions in reserve. Airforce is the lowest, with only around 30,000. Second is the navy with around 80,000 men and the biggest group is ground forces. Also there are around 250,000 - 300,000 men and women serve in the half-armed forces (police, customer and border guards)


I heard Vietnam have submarines built by Russian to deter China in dispute sea.


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## Rent

Where is our Zhuang friend? @dahuilang942 you still around?


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## xesy

Rent said:


> I heard Vietnam have submarines built by Russian to deter China in dispute sea.


2 in training and 1 still on transfering paper from Russia to VN. 3 more are waiting for money to be built. I heard they are testing the third sub it in Russia and will transport it to VN at the end of 2014, while the first two are running practice patrols around the coast. It will take sometimes before those subs can become an effective assess though.


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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> I can also say, my girl friend looks like some movie stars. Why do you call me nuts? I am just curious!


Edison, I know you are a nice guy on this forum. But who knows who you are in reality. Who guarantees me that you don´t send out a kidnapping gang to snatch my wife and ask me for ransom or contract killer to end my life?


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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> Edison, I know you are a nice guy on this forum. But who knows who you are in reality. Who guarantees me that you don´t send out a kidnapping gang to snatch my wife and ask me for ransom or contract killer to end my life?



You really disappoint me, Viet. I never violated the law, nor did I hurt anyone. Your mind is too dark, you've watched too much gang movies, I suspect that you tend to enjoy abuse from your wife. Is that true? What am I in real life, can you guess?


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## mrfly911

Rent said:


> Thank for all your responses. Hay dung vat ao cho nguoi xem lung.


Well, you changed your avatar to the flag of RVN. Are you a American-VNese?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rent said:


> I heard Vietnam have submarines built by Russian to deter China in dispute sea.



Russia is just making some bucks from you, if you believe that 6 Kilo diesel subs can deter the PLAN, then by this logic, China's 70 subs (including nuclear subs and AIP subs) can deter the whole US navy.


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## Rent

mrfly911 said:


> Well, you changed your avatar to the flag of RVN. Are you a American-VNese?


Yes, I am.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia is just making some bucks from you, if you believe that 6 Kilo diesel subs can deter the PLAN, then by this logic, China's 70 subs (including nuclear subs and AIP subs) can deter the whole US navy.


Dream on. Focus on building a homeless free China.

*HOMELESS IN BEIJING*

Hundreds of homeless people can be found in Beijing south of Tiananmen Square in Qianmen, where mazelike neighborhoods are being bulldozed and grand shopping promenades erected. Jonathan Ansfield wrote in the New York Times, most of them are---migrants from the countryside, whose chances of escaping their predicament have dimmed with the faltering economy. Many of the migrants are elderly or disabled people who came here after their relatives left their villages in search of jobs along the coast. Others are petitioning for redress for a host of alleged wrongs, including the seizure of land for development. [Source: Jonathan Ansfield, New York Times] HOMELESS PEOPLE AND SUICIDES IN CHINA | Facts and Details


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## Soryu

Shishike said:


> It's meaningless, but if you still curious, you may can google it.
> 
> LOL, even that, you still begged our help to save your city.


What's help !? Remind me !?

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## Mare

Viet said:


> can any Chinese tell me in what year and country this painting below shows?



“東京”chinese characters or kanji，"トフキン"katakana.


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## EastSea

Mare said:


> “東京”chinese characters or kanji，"トフキン"katakana.



“東京” is old name of Hanoi, from 1430 to 1831.

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## Jeffreyvnlk

sincity said:


> Without China help Ho Chi Minh fought the French in Dien Bien Phu, Viet Nam still under French colony.



Not really. Look at Indonesia. The situation almost the same. Holland colonists retook Indonesia from Japanese with the help of British navy and then put Sukarno into jail but the striking difference btw Vietnam and Indo was about GOING WITH COMMIES OR NOT. Sukarno killed a lot commies and made CIA impressed. Then Uncle Sam forced Queen of Netherlands to give Indonesia an independence status in 1947. Sukarno released from prison and to be Indonesia President later on. His resistance against Holland just 2 years

======================================

Hello guys, found this topic interesting. Im from Vietnam and want to FIND THE TRUTH. I love to seek knowledge , what really happened in South East Asia, what is gong on right now and what will be in the future. I value all your contributions for the sake of knowledge and understanding.

On other hand I see so much hostility btw people here. I don't be worry. You know what ? I so "proud" of you Asian guys.

*For us Asians, KILLING EACH OTHER is OUR ONLY BEST TALENT !*

Asia killing made that of Hitler dwarfed. Holocaust just like a breakfast comparing to Mao experiments ,NanKing massacre or Suharto killing commies. In order to be harmonious later on like EU, Asians must first kill each other well, surpassing all killing in WWI and WWII of western counterpart. Karma , isn't it ?

So are you ready for peace, prosperity and reconciliation or ALL- OUT WARS in the foreseeable future ? let me know

Thank for reading


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## jammersat

Why does Vietnam produce the haswell chipset? and not china? is it true that intel has given LGA 1150 to Vietnam and the rest to china?


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## Jeffreyvnlk

I would like to give you some of mine fisrt. Then hope you can jump in as well

Yes, for Chinese guys, as a Vietnamese I acknowledged that your China a very powerful country not only in term of military might but also culture, art, cuisine, chopsticks.....which impact all surrounding neighbors. However please understanding that all problems from your nation as well. Look at UK and USA. You know that Irish or Scottish hated English at their core and once Scotland sought to be independence right ? Canadians worried about USA invasion sooner or later. So the differences about attitude of a big guy. If a big guy showing rationale, reasonability and dual respect, Im sure Vietnam, Japan, India and all the rest of adjacent countries happy to have mutual benefit relationships with your China

If not, I hope China not follows that path, you will force all other nations to seek alliance to be against you. You have a long long border with 19 countries. Yes among those neighbor Vietnam always a TOUGH PROBLEM for you in the past. Consequently,
- Vietnam to reconcile with USA to be against you. Yes, China used Vietnamese soldiers to fight with USA in the past but now the tide turns. Uncle Sam will give Vietnam all weapon free to fight against you in case
- India to seek alliance with Japan and Vietnam as well to be a trio to contain you
- Japan to give their best submarine-hunting teams to help Taiwan to protect their strait
- SEAs nations allowed Vietnam to be their members just for being against you in case, you need to know that
- For other 16 neighbor countries with you, I have no idea but your long border easily to get through by special forces or flanked by an army

All in all, for the sake of stability of Asia , it depends much on Chia and Vietnam . If China going wild, Vietnam to be the only hope, to be a beacon to fight against China. With all support of all ASEAN, Japan, India and USA, Im sure Vietnamese glad to figth against PLA and the casualty of both side will be so high. Of course smart China not to be a siting duck and will push Cambodia to attack Vietnam for example

May I repeat: FOR US ASIANS, KILLING EACH OTHER IS OUR ONLY BEST TALENT !

Unfortunately ,Vietnam currently has her own problem. It is commies. I knew that your Mao Tse Tung was a truly founder of SRV not Ho Chi Minh.Without the help of Mao, SRV no way to exist. If one day, Vietnamese commies gone, you should be worry. Right now, Vietnam Color Revolution not yet into being, you should enjoy your ride for a while but the history about to change


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## EastSea




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## Jeffreyvnlk

OMG why this topic began with the similarity between Chinese and Vietnamese, it doesn't matter. All Anglo Saxon killing each other for years in the past. English killed Scottish, Irish fought with English and even Canadians fear of American invasion someday

To be corrective, The Mongolian Army actually not full of Mongolians and not the elite, they comprised of many Chinese as well

About Lao and Cambodia, kindly remind you that all Lao, Cambodia and Vietnam had been under a single entity called Indochina

Still digging this long topic to find any thing more interesting


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## Aepsilons

* Thai-Vietnamese War of 1833 *

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## EastSea

Nihonjin1051 said:


> * Thai-Vietnamese War of 1833 *



Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút
January 20, 1785. was fought between Tây-Sơn (Vietnamese) and Siamese forces. It is considered one of the greatest victories in Vietnamese history.

Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Aepsilons

EastSea said:


> Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút
> January 20, 1785. was fought between Tây-Sơn (Vietnamese) and Siamese forces. It is considered one of the greatest victories in Vietnamese history.
> 
> Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



It wasn't really a fair military victory since Nguyen Hue lured the Siamese in a trap by telling them to come under banner of truce, but really planning to attack the Siamese when they were unprepared and thinking the time was a formal parlay. I don't consider Battle of Rach Gam Xoai Mut as the thesis of a great military victory. 

According to Bushido, that was dishonorable tactic by Nguyen Hue. Any Japanese Warlord during the Sengoku Jidai would prefer to commit Hara Kiri than do something as dishonorable and duplicitous as that.


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## EastSea

Nihonjin1051 said:


> It wasn't really a fair military victory since Nguyen Hue lured the Siamese in a trap by telling them to come under banner of truce, but really planning to attack the Siamese when they were unprepared and thinking the time was a formal parlay. I don't consider Battle of Rach Gam Xoai Mut as the thesis of a great military victory.
> 
> According to Bushido, that was dishonorable tactic by Nguyen Hue. Any Japanese Warlord during the Sengoku Jidai would prefer to commit Hara Kiri than do something as dishonorable and duplicitous as that.



I think you you have mixed Nguyễn Huệ (Tay Son Dynasty) and Nguyễn Ánh (Nguyen Dynasty).

Nguyễn Anh has been used Siem army to attack Nguyễn Huệ *in 1785.* There is nothing related to dishonorable tactic here. Nguyễn Huệ has reattacked on Siem and defended himself.

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## Aepsilons

EastSea said:


> I think you you have mixed Nguyễn Huệ (Tay Son Dynasty) and Nguyễn Ánh (Nguyen Dynasty).
> 
> Nguyễn Anh has been used Siem army to attack Nguyễn Huệ *in 1785.* There is nothing related to dishonorable tactic here. Nguyễn Huệ has reattacked on Siem and defended himself.



No it was Nguyen Hue who lured the forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese Army to a supposed peace deal, the allied forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese accepted and lowered their defenses thinking that it was an honorable official parlay. Unbeknownst to them, the forces of Nguyen Hue immediately blocked all exits for the Siamese Navy and had their artillery fire on Siamese ships and killing the Siamese general , decimating the forces of Anh and the Siamese (estimated about 40,000). This was an unfair battle and the duplicitiousness of Nguyen Hue does not warrant foreign military strategists to see this as 'Great' Battle at all. Now, say, had the Vietnamese forces of Nguyen Hue defeated the forces of Anh and the Siamese in open battle , then I would give my respect.

But in regards to the actual historical events, nay, there is no honor in it.


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## Soryu

Nihonjin1051 said:


> No it was Nguyen Hue who lured the forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese Army to a supposed peace deal, the allied forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese accepted and lowered their defenses thinking that it was an honorable official parlay. Unbeknownst to them, the forces of Nguyen Hue immediately blocked all exits for the Siamese Navy and had their artillery fire on Siamese ships and killing the Siamese general , decimating the forces of Anh and the Siamese (estimated about 40,000). This was an unfair battle and the duplicitiousness of Nguyen Hue does not warrant foreign military strategists to see this as 'Great' Battle at all. Now, say, had the Vietnamese forces of Nguyen Hue defeated the forces of Anh and the Siamese in open battle , then I would give my respect.
> 
> But in regards to the actual historical events, nay, there is no honor in it.


well, there's difference in english wiki and Vietnamese document, so I'm not sure about the truth, but Nguyen Anh was not stupid leader to deceived ...

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## Aepsilons

Soryu said:


> well, there's difference in english wiki and Vietnamese document, so I'm not sure about the truth, but Nguyen Anh was not stupid leader to deceived ...



It is interesting that in 1785 the Siamese had the capacity to send an army of over 40,000 to assist Anh. It was just some 10 years prior that Siam had just repelled the Burmese from their lands. Talk about an immediate military rise. I am intrigued to know why Anh courted Siam's help, why didn't he court the Qing Dynasty.


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## EastSea

Nihonjin1051 said:


> No it was Nguyen Hue who lured the forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese Army to a supposed peace deal, the allied forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese accepted and lowered their defenses thinking that it was an honorable official parlay. Unbeknownst to them, the forces of Nguyen Hue immediately blocked all exits for the Siamese Navy and had their artillery fire on Siamese ships and killing the Siamese general , decimating the forces of Anh and the Siamese (estimated about 40,000). This was an unfair battle and the duplicitiousness of Nguyen Hue does not warrant foreign military strategists to see this as 'Great' Battle at all. Now, say, had the Vietnamese forces of Nguyen Hue defeated the forces of Anh and the Siamese in open battle , then I would give my respect.
> 
> But in regards to the actual historical events, nay, there is no honor in it.



what you said about honority here is very funny. I quoted here for you from e.wiki:

_Background
In 1783 Tây-Sơn rebel forces recaptured Saigon and forced Nguyễn Ánh to flee across the river to Siam. 
While in exile Nguyễn Ánh wished to retake Gia Định and push the Tây-Sơn rebels out. *One of Anh's generals, Chau Van Tiep, convinced the peaceful King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke of Siam to provide Nguyen Anh with support troops and a small invasion force.*

In mid-1784 Nguyen Anh, with 20,000–50,000 Siamese troops and 300 warships, moved through Cambodia, then east of Tonle Sap (Toh Lay Sap in Thai) and penetrated the recently annexed provinces of Annam. 20,000 Siamese troops reached Kiên Giang and another 30,000 landed in Chap Lap.

Battle
The Tây Sơn reinforcements led by Nguyễn Huệ marched south from Quy Nhơn and arrived in Cochin China territory soon after. Hue avoided a direct attack on a strong Siamese force at Sadec and tried to set up a trap. Nguyễn Huệ, anticipating a move from the Siamese, had secretly positioned his infantry and artillery along the Mekong River (Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút area of present day Tiền Giang province), and on some islands in the middle, facing other troops on the northern banks with naval reinforcements on both sides of the infantry positions.

On the morning of January 20, 1785 *Nguyễn Huệ sent a small naval force, under a banner of truce, to lure the Siamese into his trap. After so many victories, the Siamese army and naval forces were overconfident*. So, they went to the parley, unaware of the trap. Nguyễn Huệ's ships dashed into the unprepared Siamese troops, preventing their advance or retreat. In the meanwhile, Tay Son artillery opened fire. The battle ended with a near annihilation of the Siamese force, at least according to Vietnamese sources reporting that all the ships of the Siamese navy were destroyed and only 2,000–3,000 of the original expedition survived to escape back across the river into Siam. Nguyen Anh and his family members escaped and later went to Siam._

There was no peace talk between Nguyen Hue and Siamese before.

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## Aepsilons

EastSea said:


> There was no peace talk between Nguyen Hue and Siamese before.



Did you read your own quote? It said that Nguyen Hue sent a naval force under a banner of truce to lure them into a trap. Do you know what Banner of Truce means?

Banner of Truce:

1. a white flag displayed as an invitation to the enemy to confer, or carried as a sign of peaceful intention by one sent to deal with the enemy.

Clearly, the intentions of Hue was not peaceful at all. Don't you agree? The mistake of the Siamese and Anh was in lowering their guards during this Formal parlay.

He should have remembered the lessons of Sun Tzu, _"Never lower your eyes to your enemy..."_


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## EastSea

Nihonjin1051 said:


> It is interesting that in 1785 the Siamese had the capacity to send an army of over 40,000 to assist Anh. It was just some 10 years prior that Siam had just repelled the Burmese from their lands. Talk about an immediate military rise. I am intrigued to know why Anh courted Siam's help, why didn't he court the Qing Dynasty.



North Vietnam (tonkin) was under rule of Trinh Warlord, enemy of Nguyen Warlord in South Vietnam (cochin-China).

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## Aepsilons

EastSea said:


> North Vietnam (tonkin) was under rule of Trinh Warlord, enemy of Nguyen Warlord in South Vietnam (cochin-China).



Yes, i know that. But i am just curious to know why Anh asked for military arbitration from Siam and not from the Qing Dynasty of China.


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## EastSea

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Did you read your own quote? It said that Nguyen Hue sent a naval force under a banner of truce to lure them into a trap. Do you know what Banner of Truce means?
> 
> Banner of Truce:
> 
> 1. a white flag displayed as an invitation to the enemy to confer, or carried as a sign of peaceful intention by one sent to deal with the enemy.
> 
> Clearly, the intentions of Hue was not peaceful at all. Don't you agree? The mistake of the Siamese and Anh was in lowering their guards during this Formal parlay.
> 
> He should have remembered the lessons of Sun Tzu, _"Never lower your eyes to your enemy..."_



There is ordenary maneuvers in the battle field in every where in the world. 

Same story recently, when our General Vo Nguyen Giap, he lured France Colonial army that Vietming army is very weak, he lured France dropped his troops in to Dien Bien Phu.

Sun Tzu also said that :_ ""The military affair is a cheating maneuvers.""_

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## Soryu

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Yes, i know that. But i am just curious to know why Anh asked for military arbitration from Siam and not from the Qing Dynasty of China.


Vietnamese noble and people will not accept that action, and will united to against Nguyen Anh. The Viet know Chinese is dangerous enemy and didn't welcome them.
And Nguyen Anh know Chinese so well, if he want help from Chinese, he will must pay big price, even may be cost his nation after he had it.

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## EastSea

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Yes, i know that. But i am just curious to know why Anh asked for military arbitration from Siam and not from the Qing Dynasty of China.



officially, Qing Dynasty China recognized Le Dynasty in Vietnam (in fact Le Dynasty is puppet of Trinh warlord). In reality the conflict in Vietnam between Tring Warlord with, Nguyen warlord or Nguyen Hue rebels is internal affair of Vietnam. Qing Dynasty didnt cared about this incidents.

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## Aepsilons

Soryu said:


> Vietnamese noble and people will not accept that action, and will united to against Nguyen Anh. The Viet know Chinese is dangerous enemy and didn't welcome them.
> And Nguyen Anh know Chinese so well, if he want help from Chinese, he will must pay big price, even may be cost his nation after he had it.



That's understandable. I wonder what concessions Anh was willing to concede to the Siamese in return for their help. Do you happen to know ?



EastSea said:


> officially, Qing Dynasty China recognized Le Dynasty in Vietnam (in fact Le Dynasty is puppet of Trinh warlord). In reality the conflict in Vietnam between Tring Warlord with, Nguyen warlord or Nguyen Hue rebels is internal affair of Vietnam. Qing Dynasty didnt cared about this incidents.



I doubt that the Qing didn't care, they cared enough to intervene in Burma in the 1760s. Perhaps there was an internal issue in the Chinese Empire that prevented the Qing Dynasty from interfering in Indochina during the 1780s. 

I'm curious to know now tho.


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## EastSea

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I doubt that the Qing didn't care, they cared enough to intervene in Burma in the 1760s. Perhaps there was an internal issue in the Chinese Empire that prevented the Qing Dynasty from interfering in Indochina during the 1780s.
> 
> I'm curious to know now tho.



Qing intervented in 1789 when Le Dynasty asked for help to counter Nguyễn Huệ.


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## Aepsilons

EastSea said:


> Qing intervented in 1789 when Le Dynasty asked for help to counter Nguyễn Huệ.



And may I ask what was the outcome of that conflict? Did the Le win? Nguyen Hue?


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## Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> And may I ask what was the outcome of that conflict? Did the Le win? Nguyen Hue?


back then VN was going through a period of chaos, where many war lords fought for supremacy in the country: the Trinh, Nguyen, Le and Tay Son. as for conflict with China, it is the war between Vietnam (Tay Son dynasty) vs China (Qing dynasty) 1788-1789. the vietnamese military campaign under Nguyễn Huệ against the Qing army was considered as one of the greatest victories in our military history.

The First Tet Offensive of 1789










Battle of Ngọc Hồi-Đống Đa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





although Vietnam won the war, Nguyen Hue sought peace and normalization. he sent envoy (his nephew, Nguyễn Quang) to China and agreed to pay tribubes to the Qing court.

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## Nguzengon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Clearly, the intentions of Hue was not peaceful at all. Don't you agree? The mistake of the Siamese and Anh was in lowering their guards during this Formal parlay. "



Yes, no peaceful intention, but Siam and Anh were very too flattered, too confident of winning, but not necessarily lowering their guards, too silly just to march their troops there to hold peace talks.

The Wikipedia translation glossed over too much details. The Viet page has a fuller version of the ante battle scenes and intrigues.

The so called truce was only a discussion to buy time, played psychological games, during which Hue probed enemy lines with minor skirmishes. Neither side were fooled with the truce discussion, they were using the time to choose and set up their own battle ground.

[vi wikipedia org wiki Trận_Rạch_Gầm_–_Xoài_Mút]
"
Biết quân Xiêm tham tàn, Nguyễn Huệ cho người đưa tiền của sang mua chuộc, bàn việc giảng hòa, cốt làm cho tướng Xiêm chủ quan và làm tăng thêm mối hoài nghi của chúa Nguyễn đối với quân Xiêm.
"


Rough Translation -
Knowing Siam's eager for destruction, Nguyen Hue sent people over with money and treasure to bribe, hold talks for peace, the gist is to make Siam's generals overly self-confident, and to make Nguyen Anh suspicious of the intention of Siam.

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## somsak

Vietnam population reaches over 90 million | VOV Online Newspaper

Congratulation! Vietnam 90 million population.

Why 110:100 boy:girl at birth but 100:100 in total population? VN Men dies much younger?


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## Viet

somsak said:


> Vietnam population reaches over 90 million | VOV Online Newspaper
> 
> Congratulation! Vietnam 90 million population.



well, that is just an estimation. the koreans assume VN population is higher: 93.42 million. if you add 5 million overseas vietnamese, then VN has about 98 millions.
The Chosun Ilbo (English Edition): Daily News from Korea - Korea, Vietnam Conclude FTA


somsak said:


> Why 110:100 boy:girl at birth but 100:100 in total population? VN Men dies much younger?


like China, VN suffers gender imbalance, too. there are more boys than girls, because many viet parents still favor boy over girl. sons are obliged to continue ancestry worshipping and so on. that is very bad.
and of course, like most of countries in the world, live expectancy of men is shorter (70.44 years) than women (75.65 years). women tend to take of themselves more than men.


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## didius

Indos said:


> 4 million in their region...but 3 million are spreading...mostly in Indonesia big city. Singapore first President is also from Minangkabau.....many has higher position in Malaysia as well. It is a political and trader ethnic of native Indonesian....Clever people and respected.....None of you see this tribe go overseas for uneducated work....Most funding father of Indonesian are also from this tribe....including one of two of our Independence proclamers...which are Soekarno (Javanese ) and *Muhammad Hatta* is Minangkabau. First Prime Minister of Indonesia is also Minang Tribe. This tribe is also known as quite Islamic Tribe....Muhammadiyah which is the Wahhabi type of Islam is actually form by Minang (Sumatrans) and Yogya (Central Java) clerics. Sundanese is also very Islamic......Thats why in Minangkabau (West Sumatra) and Sundanese (West Java)...mostly Islamic parties won there. Today West Java (Sundanese) is lead by the governor coming from the most conservative Islamic Party (PKS)....
> 
> This tribe (Minang) has some Arabic link according to China voyager....Arab village are seen in West Sumatra since long time ago. Many Indonesian artist are also coming from this tribe. I doubt they come from Vietnam......because I have pure blood of Minangkabau.....and never heard such story.....but according to Minang old people...they believe they come from Alexandre The Great ... (I doubt this story....it just maybe Arab traders who are taller than SEA people) but any way Good luck to Vietnamese Friends for bringing this tribe to your thread



you might want to check on Champa my friend....

The Muslim Acehnese people of Aceh, Sumatra, Indonesia, are the descendants of Cham refugees who fled after defeat by the Vietnamese polity in the 15th century. *wikipedia : Chams*
Folklore traces this to five masters, namely Ninik Datuak Suri Dirajo from Padang Panjang, Kambiang Utan ("forest goat") from Cambodia, Harimau Campo ("tiger of Champa") from Vietnam, Kuciang Siam ("Siamese cat") from Thailand and Anjiang Mualim ("teacher dog") from Gujarat. *wikipedia : Pencak Silat*

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## didius

*Depiction of fighting Cham naval soldier against the Khmer, stone relief at the Bayon*
(Cham people are surely Austronesian just like Reglai, Jarai, Rede, etc)




some of them somehow ended up in Malaysia and Indonesia bringing with them the haplogroup O2a1 (M95) wich is more prevelant in Austroasiatic (Mon-Khmer) population in mainland SEA.....that's why most Indonesian DNA marker are belong to this haplogroup type *(National Pies - Ancestral Genography Atlas)*

why we cannot put some site links over here ?



Viet said:


> *History of Vietnam or *
> *What do you want to know about Vietnam?*
> 
> 
> 
> Thread has been opened as there are increasing complaints by other members due to off-topic comments in numerous non-Vietnam related threads. Hope on fruitful discussions and contributions. All comments except insult are welcome.
> 
> @djsjs, I believe you wanted to see this thread a year ago.



tell me about the history of Luo Yue 雒越 name ?



Viet said:


> You should listen to French instead, one of most beautiful languages of the world.



how about Indonesian ? the easiest language in the world and sound a bit like Japanese or something...

how can we posting another post instead of adding something in the same post ?


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## Rechoice

didius said:


> tell me about the history of Luo Yue 雒越 name ?



The *Lạc Việt* (雒越; pinyin: _Luòyuè_) were an ancient people of what is today the lowland plains of northern Vietnam, particularly the marshy, agriculturally rich area of the Red River Delta.[1] They are particularly associated with the Bronze AgeĐông Sơn culture of mainland Southeast Asia.[2]






The Lạc Việt are believed to have founded a state called Văn Lang in 2879 BC.[3][4] The people of Văn Lang traded with the upland-based Âu Việt people, who lived in the mountainous regions of what are today northernmost Vietnam, western Guangdong, and northern Guangxi, China, to their north, until 258 BC or 257 BC, when Thục Phán, the leader of the alliance of Âu Việt tribes, invaded Văn Lang and defeated the last Hùng king. He united the two kingdoms, naming the new nation Âu Lạc and taking aSino-Vietnamese title, "peaceful virile king" (traditional Chinese: 安陽王; ; Vietnamese: _An Dương Vương_).[5]

Lạc Việt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Jlaw

Viet said:


> back then VN was going through a period of chaos, where many war lords fought for supremacy in the country: the Trinh, Nguyen, Le and Tay Son. as for conflict with China, it is the war between Vietnam (Tay Son dynasty) vs China (Qing dynasty) 1788-1789. the vietnamese military campaign under Nguyễn Huệ against the Qing army was considered as one of the greatest victories in our military history.
> 
> The First Tet Offensive of 1789
> 
> View attachment 162217
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Battle of Ngọc Hồi-Đống Đa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> View attachment 162212
> 
> 
> although Vietnam won the war, Nguyen Hue sought peace and normalization. he sent envoy (his nephew, Nguyễn Quang) to China and agreed to pay tribubes to the Qing court.
> View attachment 162230



Vietnamese are either strange or not telling the truth. So they claim to won the war but continued paid tribute to Qing?


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## Viva_Viet

Jlaw said:


> Vietnamese are either strange or not telling the truth. So they claim to won the war but continued paid tribute to Qing?


You called its a 'tribute' but every one know its just a donation to millions hungry poor Cnese peasants and frozen kids in winter.

Cnese now still have to crawl around the lake just for keeping low paid job

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## Jlaw

Viva_Viet said:


> You called its a 'tribute' but every one know its just a donation to millions hungry poor Cnese peasants and frozen kids in winter.
> 
> Cnese now still have to crawl around the lake just for keeping low paid job


OK NiceGuy

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## Viet

Jlaw said:


> Vietnamese are either strange or not telling the truth. So they claim to won the war but continued paid tribute to Qing?


who wakes up this 2 year thread to life? 

anyway, Vietnam paying tributes was a form of establishing diplomacy, normalization of relationship or accepting chinese supremacy. that is not unsual in ancient times. it is all about face. with some interruptions (wars, conflicts with China or civil war in Vietnam when there wasn´t a dedicated ruler), VN paid tributes once a year. sometimes in every 2 or 3 years. special gifts from Vietnam to special occasions like wedding of the chinese emperor or his birthday. all negotiated and signed in a vassal treaty.

I can tell you we didn´t cry a tear when the Qing collapsed, ending formally the tribute system.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Yorozuya said:


> Wow wow who said this in the first page?
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986 , please adopt him into your family.
> 
> 
> 
> Yue is a loose term for non-han people. Luo referred specifically to the people living in northern VN.



I don't look like a Viet, period.

The Indian guy does know jacksh1t about China's history.


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## William Hung

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I don't look like a Viet, period.
> 
> The Indian guy does know jacksh1t about China's history.



That Indian guy didn’t say anything. He only asked a question. Another member gave him that answer.

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