# 2020 is nearly over ... so what can we expect in 2021 for PLA watchers?



## Deino

Just as the title says I think we had some major developments and breakthroughs in 2020 and I'm sure China won't disappoint us in 2021: so what can we expect in 2021 for PLA watchers?

My wishes are most of all:

- the unveiling of the J-35 prototype
- conclusive answer on the Type 003's powerpack and general layout
- clear images of J-20A & WS-10C in PLAAF colours (from the second frontline unit)
- news on the WS-15
- clear images of the KJ-600 prototype
- Y-20U service entry and clear images of the Y-20B
- Z-20 naval variant service entry
- maybe news on the new attack helicopter (as @IblinI suggested)
- some UAV surprises

... and I'm not sure if to wish to get a glimpse of the H-20 is already too much to hope for.

And you?

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## vi-va

Man, you are greedy. 
I hope something like this below.

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## Beast

I think we will see railgun 055A in 2020.

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## Deino

vi-va said:


> Man, you are greedy.
> I hope something like this below.
> View attachment 698389




Indeed ... but this is the proposal for the E-2C successor for the USN and it was cancelled. So with the KJ-600 I don't expect another AEW type any time soon and especially - even if unfortunately - not such a unique configuration.

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## Beast

095 SSN and 096 SSBN might also debut

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Indeed ... but this is the proposal for the E-2C successor for the USN and it was cancelled. So with the KJ-600 I don't expect another AEW type any time soon and especially - even if unfortunately - not such a unique configuration.


Maybe they changed their mind. In x band era, they don't care much. but in VHF era, this design has some significant advantage.

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## Deino

vi-va said:


> Maybe they changed their mind. In x band era, they don't care much. but in VHF era, this design has some significant advantage.




Surely ... bu I don't think they abandon the KJ-600 just after its maiden flight only for a new design ... maybe as a successor to the Y-8/9-EW family members but we are going off-topic.

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## GiantPanda

News and photos on WS-15, WS-19 and CJ-1000A.

News on Y-30

KJ-600 launch video (from land)
Maybe more on WS-13(E/xx) for the JF-17 and as interim J-35 engine.

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Just as the title says I think we had some major developments and breakthroughs in 2020 and I'm sure China won't disappoint us in 2021: so what can we expect in 2021 for PLA watchers?
> 
> My wishes are most of all:
> 
> - the unveiling of the J-35 prototype
> - conclusive answer on the Type 003's powerpack and general layout
> - clear images of J-20A & WS-10C in PLAAF colours (from the second frontline unit)
> - news on the WS-15
> - clear images of the KJ-600 prototype
> - Y-20U service entry and clear images of the Y-20B
> - Z-20 naval variant service entry
> - maybe news on the new attack helicopter (as @IblinI suggested)
> - some UAV surprises
> 
> ... and I'm not sure if to wish to get a glimpse of the H-20 is already too much to hope for.
> 
> And you?


New tracked IFV, like VN17 to replace ZBD-04.
New wheeled armored vehicle family to replace ZBL-08 family. 30+ tons.
Anti Air Laser System, such as anti UAV, anti cruise missile

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## zhxy

Hopefully China can produce Tu-95, Tu-22M, Su-34, Mi-26


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## Deino

zhxy said:


> Hopefully China can produce Tu-95, Tu-22M, Su-34, Mi-26




Ähhm?? Why? ... if China can develop the H-20 is is truly no need for a Tu-95 or Tu-22 and even the Su-34.

The only one I would agree is the Mi-26 but not the Mi-26 itself but the new Z-XX / AHL helicopter.


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## zhxy

Deino said:


> Ähhm?? Why? ... if China can develop the H-20 is is truly no need for a Tu-95 or Tu-22 and even the Su-34.
> 
> The only one I would agree is the Mi-26 but not the Mi-26 itself but the new Z-XX / AHL helicopter.




How many countries in the world can build bombers similar to the Tu-16 (technology 70 years ago)?

The TU-16 is not an outdated platform , it is constantly improving and can meet the requirements of modern warfare. The Russians do not use the Tu-16, they underestimate it and so they never break the limit and exploit the true power of the Tu-16.

The British invented tanks, but now they are inferior to Russia in tank technology.
The Russians invented the Tu-16, but China is the only country in the world that brought the Tu-16 to its limits with the Xian H6K, H6N versions ...

Comparing the H-20 with the Tu-95 and Tu-22M, then concluding that the Tu-95 and TU-22M are too old and should not be produced is a mistake. I am sure 50 years later, Tu-95 and Tu-22M are still the dream technology of 99% countries in the world and can be used effectively. It is the same as in the JF-17, using the RD-33 engine invented 50 years ago

Xian H-20 is very modern and powerful. But Tu-95, Tu-22M, Su-34 have their own advantages. There is no conflict between them. It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white. H-20, H-6k, Tu-95, Tu-22M, Su-34 can support each other

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## casual

A royal wingman drone


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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Just as the title says I think we had some major developments and breakthroughs in 2020 and I'm sure China won't disappoint us in 2021: so what can we expect in 2021 for PLA watchers?
> 
> My wishes are most of all:
> 
> - the unveiling of the J-35 prototype
> - conclusive answer on the Type 003's powerpack and general layout
> - clear images of J-20A & WS-10C in PLAAF colours (from the second frontline unit)
> - news on the WS-15
> - clear images of the KJ-600 prototype
> - Y-20U service entry and clear images of the Y-20B
> - Z-20 naval variant service entry
> - maybe news on the new attack helicopter (as @IblinI suggested)
> - some UAV surprises
> 
> ... and I'm not sure if to wish to get a glimpse of the H-20 is already too much to hope for.
> 
> And you?


Do you think China will develop a variant of KJ-600 C-2 Greyhound for transportation and S-3 Viking for anti sub ? I personally believe so.

C2 is base on E-2, so I think there shouldn't be major issue to get Chinese version of C-2 base on KJ-600.

China has accumulate experience on Y-8FQ Cub/GX-6, so S-3 technology should be mature as well.

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## ZeEa5KPul

I'm calling it now: First test flight of the H-20 on 11/11/2021, just like the first test flight of the J-20 was on 11/11/2011.

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## Deino

ZeEa5KPul said:


> I'm calling it now: First test flight of the H-20 on 11/11/2021, just like the first test flight of the J-20 was on 11/11/2011.




Then I owe you a beer ... a bottle of beer or better a barrel!

Cheers. 🍻

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## Vapnope

- I would like to see loyal wingman concept in reality by plaaf
- J10C with Chinese engine
- J31 in mass production (If they are planning to continue this plane)


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## samsara

Beast said:


> 095 SSN and 096 SSBN might also debut


Plus some news on DF-51.

I wanna see more the *strategic* stuffs!

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## Deino

casual said:


> A royal wingman drone




Maybe this one:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341060164066095107

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## 52051

Deino said:


> Maybe this one:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341060164066095107



It is not, if my memory serves, the design is from a design contest among young engineers hold this year, has nothing to do with any real military project.


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## aliaselin

2021 should be an important year with lots of surpise due to CCP established for 100 years

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## Figaro

Vapnope said:


> - J10C with Chinese engine


Already seen earlier this year.


zhxy said:


> How many countries in the world can build bombers similar to the Tu-16 (technology 70 years ago)?
> 
> The TU-16 is not an outdated platform , it is constantly improving and can meet the requirements of modern warfare. The Russians do not use the Tu-16, they underestimate it and so they never break the limit and exploit the true power of the Tu-16.
> 
> The British invented tanks, but now they are inferior to Russia in tank technology.
> The Russians invented the Tu-16, but China is the only country in the world that brought the Tu-16 to its limits with the Xian H6K, H6N versions ...
> 
> Comparing the H-20 with the Tu-95 and Tu-22M, then concluding that the Tu-95 and TU-22M are too old and should not be produced is a mistake. I am sure 50 years later, Tu-95 and Tu-22M are still the dream technology of 99% countries in the world and can be used effectively. It is the same as in the JF-17, using the RD-33 engine invented 50 years ago
> 
> Xian H-20 is very modern and powerful. But Tu-95, Tu-22M, Su-34 have their own advantages. There is no conflict between them. It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white. H-20, H-6k, Tu-95, Tu-22M, Su-34 can support each other


I'm sorry but there is just no way the Tu-16 can perform anywhere near the range of tasks a H-20 can ... not to mention its need to have a bunch of fighter escorts and even then extremely poor survivability. The Tu-16/Tu-95 may look good pounding Syrian militants but how would it fare against the integrated air defenses of someone like the US? I doubt they would be effective at all. The only advantage I can think of for them are that they are extremely cheap and easy to produce.


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Already seen earlier this year.




But not yet in operational service


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## vi-va

Figaro said:


> Already seen earlier this year.
> 
> I'm sorry but there is just no way the Tu-16 can perform anywhere near the range of tasks a H-20 can ... not to mention its need to have a bunch of fighter escorts and even then extremely poor survivability. The Tu-16/Tu-95 may look good pounding Syrian militants but how would it fare against the integrated air defenses of someone like the US? I doubt they would be effective at all. The only advantage I can think of for them are that they are extremely cheap and easy to produce.


China produced a lot of H-6, which can carry 6 cruise missiles each against first island chain, or 2 missiles against Guam.
H-6 is also capable to carry a lot of load, such as anti-ship missiles, or ballistic missiles, much more load than J-16.

H-6 will carry hyper-sonic missiles as well, which kill enemies from 1000+ km away in less than 10 minutes.

Tu-16 is old, but H-6 is not. The avionic is quit new. B-52 is old, but still be in service for quite a few decades.

H-6 is indispensable for PLAAF, and will still be in service for around 2-3 decades even when H-20 is mass produced.

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## samsara

Just a reminder, a good read by Rick Joe about the H-6 family...

_*An overview of the H-6K family and its role in the PLA’s toolbox of strike options.*_
By Rick Joe | The Diplomat (2020-11-18)

...
The H-6K family provides the PLA with a flexible, relatively low cost, and reliable regional strike capability that has been – and is actively being – procured in large numbers. It is not an exaggeration to state that about a hundred of the aircraft type have been procured and commissioned within the space of a decade, and the associated boost in the PLA’s regional strike capacity is significant, further enhanced in context of the PLAAF’s greater number of strike capable tactical fighters, as well as the PLA Rocket Force’s growth of their own ground launched LACMs and conventionally tipped ballistic missiles.

The H-6K family will likely enjoy further enhancements in sensors, avionics, and integration with future payloads as they are developed, including but not limited to stealthy cruise missiles, hypersonic weapons, EW payloads, and swarming systems. Even with current avionics, the H-6K family could also likely operate in a supplementary information-surveillance-reconnaissance (ISR) role or EW role depending on mission demand, but future upgrades could make the aircraft even more multirole – enabled not least by the relatively low cost of the aircraft and its size, both providing good growth margin.

*As new build airframes, the H-6K family will likely be in service for many years, and will remain relevant even when the expected H-20 stealth bomber enters service. The H-20 will almost certainly be unable to carry the large ventral missile systems that the H-6N can, and the H-6K family’s pylons can carry outsize payloads impractical on tactical fighters, virtually ensuring they will remain relevant for years if not decades yet.*
...






PLAAF & PLANAF H-6 Long Range Bomber thread


I think that was pretty clear since the latest H-6N and J bombers are from a different production block, but maybe the K models were upgraded to H-6J? Poor PLAN... PLAAF can get anything that PLAN has, if PLAAF is interested in.



defence.pk

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## vi-va

samsara said:


> Just a reminder, a good read by Rick Joe about the H-6 family...
> 
> _*An overview of the H-6K family and its role in the PLA’s toolbox of strike options.*_
> By Rick Joe | The Diplomat (2020-11-18)
> 
> ...
> The H-6K family provides the PLA with a flexible, relatively low cost, and reliable regional strike capability that has been – and is actively being – procured in large numbers. It is not an exaggeration to state that about a hundred of the aircraft type have been procured and commissioned within the space of a decade, and the associated boost in the PLA’s regional strike capacity is significant, further enhanced in context of the PLAAF’s greater number of strike capable tactical fighters, as well as the PLA Rocket Force’s growth of their own ground launched LACMs and conventionally tipped ballistic missiles.
> 
> The H-6K family will likely enjoy further enhancements in sensors, avionics, and integration with future payloads as they are developed, including but not limited to stealthy cruise missiles, hypersonic weapons, EW payloads, and swarming systems. Even with current avionics, the H-6K family could also likely operate in a supplementary information-surveillance-reconnaissance (ISR) role or EW role depending on mission demand, but future upgrades could make the aircraft even more multirole – enabled not least by the relatively low cost of the aircraft and its size, both providing good growth margin.
> 
> *As new build airframes, the H-6K family will likely be in service for many years, and will remain relevant even when the expected H-20 stealth bomber enters service. The H-20 will almost certainly be unable to carry the large ventral missile systems that the H-6N can, and the H-6K family’s pylons can carry outsize payloads impractical on tactical fighters, virtually ensuring they will remain relevant for years if not decades yet.*
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PLAAF & PLANAF H-6 Long Range Bomber thread
> 
> 
> I think that was pretty clear since the latest H-6N and J bombers are from a different production block, but maybe the K models were upgraded to H-6J? Poor PLAN... PLAAF can get anything that PLAN has, if PLAAF is interested in.
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Some of H-6K job can be done on modified Y-20. Arsenal Plane








USAF Leaders Considering Arsenal Plane Options - Air Force Magazine


The Air Force is planning experiments and briefing senior leaders on progress toward its “arsenal plane” idea, looking at multiple aircraft options to fly with a large weapons cache to back up strike assets. An arsenal plane would be a multi-engine platform that accompanies remotely piloted...




www.airforcemag.com




.









US Air Force requests ideas for arsenal plane to launch long-range missiles ‘en masse’


The service is debating how effective such an aircraft would be against China or Russia, both which have sophisticated anti-aircraft defences that make it difficult to fly over their sovereign territory and drop bombs.




www.flightglobal.com

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## kungfugymnast

vi-va said:


> Do you think China will develop a variant of KJ-600 C-2 Greyhound for transportation and S-3 Viking for anti sub ? I personally believe so.
> 
> C2 is base on E-2, so I think there shouldn't be major issue to get Chinese version of C-2 base on KJ-600.
> 
> China has accumulate experience on Y-8FQ Cub/GX-6, so S-3 technology should be mature as well.



Most likely will since it could take off from Type 003. ASW and transport


vi-va said:


> Do you think China will develop a variant of KJ-600 C-2 Greyhound for transportation and S-3 Viking for anti sub ? I personally believe so.
> 
> C2 is base on E-2, so I think there shouldn't be major issue to get Chinese version of C-2 base on KJ-600.
> 
> China has accumulate experience on Y-8FQ Cub/GX-6, so S-3 technology should be mature as well.



It sure will for separate ASW and transport variants.


ZeEa5KPul said:


> I'm calling it now: First test flight of the H-20 on 11/11/2021, just like the first test flight of the J-20 was on 11/11/2011.



H-20 will it look like B-2 flying wing or more of large fighter-bomber since the designer evaluated the B-1R with AESA and air to air capable besides being bomber? Flying intercontinental is likely without fighter escort, better have own radar and air to air missiles for self defense.


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## waja2000

GiantPanda said:


> News and photos on WS-15, WS-19 and CJ-1000A.
> 
> News on Y-30
> 
> KJ-600 launch video (from land)
> Maybe more on WS-13(E/xx) for the JF-17 and as interim J-35 engine.



CJ-1000A already replace to enhance CJ-1000AX


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## luciferdd

HQ-19&HQ-26

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## White and Green with M/S

I wanted to see what is real progress of PLAAF Regional bomber project, at least its final mockup

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## Figaro

White and Green with M/S said:


> I wanted to see what is real progress of PLAAF Regional bomber project, at least its final mockup


The regional bomber? Like the famed JH-XX? Nobody is sure it is even in development ... all the bomber resources seems to have been diverted into the H-20.


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## PakPrinciples

GiantPanda said:


> KJ-600 launch video





Deino said:


> clear images of the KJ-600 prototype



Though not a launch video, and maybe you guys have already come across these, but apparently this site is purporting to show those images you're looking for:
Images of China’s Game Changing New Carrier Based Jets Revealed; KJ-600 AWACS and J-15B Fighters to Deploy from Future EMALS Equipped Warships

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## Figaro

PakPrinciples said:


> Apparently this site is purporting to show those images you're looking for:
> Images of China’s Game Changing New Carrier Based Jets Revealed; KJ-600 AWACS and J-15B Fighters to Deploy from Future EMALS Equipped Warships


Those are not prototypes ... those are just full scale mockups (i.e. they are not operational and cannot fly).


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## White and Green with M/S

Figaro said:


> The regional bomber? Like the famed JH-XX? Nobody is sure it is even in development ... all the bomber resources seems to have been diverted into the H-20.


Oh my bad sir, so JH-XX just a rumors sir???


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## Figaro

White and Green with M/S said:


> Oh my bad sir, so JH-XX just a rumors sir???


I don't think we have seen any concrete proof of its existence. It was rumored like crazy in the early 2010s but nothing concrete seems to have come out of it. The spotlight is basically all on the H-20 in terms of bombers.

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## White and Green with M/S

Figaro said:


> I don't think we have seen any concrete proof of its existence. It was rumored like crazy in the early 2010s but nothing concrete seems to have come out of it. The spotlight is basically all on the H-20 in terms of bombers.


So only H-20 replaces PLAAF regional bomber force of H-6???


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## Figaro

White and Green with M/S said:


> So only H-20 replaces PLAAF regional bomber force of H-6???


So far the only direct successor to the H-6 is the H-20 (besides newer H-6 variants). Besides that, unless the JH-XX project has concrete progress, I would surmise so.

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## White and Green with M/S

Figaro said:


> So far the only direct successor to the H-6 is the H-20 (besides newer H-6 variants). Besides that, unless the JH-XX project has concrete progress, I would surmise so.


But huitong blog says that project is progressing with extremely slow phase, and project name is JH-19


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## Figaro

White and Green with M/S said:


> extremely slow phase


Basically means it is dead, as it often is with anything that comes out from SAC.


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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> So far the only direct successor to the H-6 is the H-20 (besides newer H-6 variants). Besides that, unless the JH-XX project has concrete progress, I would surmise so.


H-20 can't replace H-6.

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> H-20 can't replace H-6.


I'm not saying H-6 production is going to cease ... but there is nothing on the horizon to indicate a new bomber besides the H-20. The H-6 will continue getting more advanced variants no doubt even when the H-20 is operational.


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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> I'm not saying H-6 production is going to cease ... but there is nothing on the horizon to indicate a new bomber besides the H-20.


H-6 is just like B-52. B-1B, B-2, and B-21 also can't replace B-52.

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> H-6 is just like B-52. B-1B, B-2, and B-21 also can't replace B-52.


Once again, I never said the H-20 will completely replace the H-6, just like the B-2 cannot with the B-52 in your analogy.

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## White and Green with M/S

LKJ86 said:


> H-6 is just like B-52. B-1B, B-2, and B-21 also can't replace B-52.


B-52 will replace by supersonic bomber (Mach-2/Mach-3) bomber in 2040


Figaro said:


> Once again, I never said the H-20 will completely replace the H-6, just like the B-2 cannot with the B-52 in your analogy.


But relying only one stealth subsonic bomber along with conventional H-6/Tu-16 doesn't guarantee that it can penetrate IADs of USN/USAF, China need supersonic regional medium bomber to replace its H-6


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## LKJ86

White and Green with M/S said:


> B-52 will replace by supersonic bomber (Mach-2/Mach-3) bomber in 2040


2040...


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## White and Green with M/S

LKJ86 said:


> 2040...


2037 Bomber - Wikipedia


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## Oldman1

Deino said:


> Maybe this one:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1341060164066095107


Doesn't look like a loyal wingman since it has a cockpit.


White and Green with M/S said:


> B-52 will replace by supersonic bomber (Mach-2/Mach-3) bomber in 2040



Definitely not, they will keep on flying 2050s and beyond in the future. They are looking for new engines for better range and maintenance.


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## Deino

Oldman1 said:


> Doesn't look like a loyal wingman since it has a cockpit.
> 
> 
> Definitely not, they will keep on flying 2050s and beyond in the future. They are looking for new engines for better range and maintenance.




Where do you see a cockpit?

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## White and Green with M/S

Oldman1 said:


> Definitely not, they will keep on flying 2050s and beyond in the future. They are looking for new engines for better range and maintenance.


2037 Bomber - Wikipedia


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## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> 2037 Bomber - Wikipedia




Can we stick to the topic and even more stop quoting Wiki!?

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## White and Green with M/S

Deino said:


> Can we stick to the topic and even more stop quoting Wiki!?


Yes sir but yo tell be there will be no replacement of B-52 till 2050 and beyond i provided there is a project going on to replace B-52 in 2035-2040 timeframe


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## redtom

The fifth-generation carrier-based aircraft

Hypersonic cruise missile with a range of more than 5000 kilometers

Test flight of a manned aircraft demonstrating aircraft flying above the atmosphere

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## 52051

I just hope H-20 can finally make its maiden flight next year, so is WS-15.

As for other stuff, none of them will impress me much.


Figaro said:


> I don't think we have seen any concrete proof of its existence. It was rumored like crazy in the early 2010s but nothing concrete seems to have come out of it. The spotlight is basically all on the H-20 in terms of bombers.



It is still a strong rumor, just now the rumor says the 601th has pass the project to other institutes for further development.

Multiple sources suggesting the military industry get much more funding this year, so I think the project will not dead, especially with more funding available to PLA.

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## IblinI

Let's come back to this thread next year, hopefully with good news.


White and Green with M/S said:


> I wanted to see what is real progress of PLAAF Regional bomber project, at least its final mockup


I'm with you on this one since the others are certainly existed known projects.


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## Beidou2020

Most excited about news regarding:

H-20
J-35
WS-15
Type 095
Type 096
HQ-19
HQ-26
HQ-29
Heavy attack helicopter

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## ChineseTiger1986

- The mass production of the WS-15

- The maiden flight of the H-20

- The launch of the Type 003

- The deterrent patrol of the Type 096 with the JL-3

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## bshifter

I'm more excited for the Type 096 equipped with JL-3 than the H-20, it's the sea version of the DF-41 which is truly a game changer.

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## 52051

bshifter said:


> I'm more excited for the Type 096 equipped with JL-3 than the H-20, it's the sea version of the DF-41 which is truly a game changer.



China's geo-position means 096 is nowhere as important as the next Chinese ICBM on land.

The sea area around China are too shallow, the average depth of Bohai is only 30 meter or so, impossible to accommodate large subarmines.

For east sea, not much better.

So the US will have a very easy job to spot China's large SSBNs there.

The only place which is deep enough for large SSBN is south China sea, but then the SLBM will require to have much larger range to cover the US than land-based ICBMs, kind of render SSBN pointless.

Unless we take Taiwan and use its as a base, SSBN will always come serve a secondary role in China's nuclear arsenal.

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## waja2000

Beidou2020 said:


> Heavy attack helicopter



possible china will buy Ka-52 or Mi-28nm...?


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## IblinI

waja2000 said:


> possible china will buy Ka-52 or Mi-28nm...?


Chinese heavy atk heli.


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## Figaro

waja2000 said:


> possible china will buy Ka-52 or Mi-28nm...?


No


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## ChineseTiger1986

52051 said:


> China's geo-position means 096 is nowhere as important as the next Chinese ICBM on land.
> 
> The sea area around China are too shallow, the average depth of Bohai is only 30 meter or so, impossible to accommodate large subarmines.
> 
> For east sea, not much better.
> 
> So the US will have a very easy job to spot China's large SSBNs there.
> 
> The only place which is deep enough for large SSBN is south China sea, but then the SLBM will require to have much larger range to cover the US than land-based ICBMs, kind of render SSBN pointless.
> 
> Unless we take Taiwan and use its as a base, SSBN will always come serve a secondary role in China's nuclear arsenal.



China's SSBN will be mainly based in the South China Sea, and the JL-3 with a longer range and larger payload than the Trident D5 will serve this purpose.

With China's increasing strength in the naval projection and ASBM, the USN will have troubles to threaten China's SSBN.

And no need to regard the USN as some sort of imperial army from star wars, and half of their navy already got crippled by the coronavirus. And they cannot hold a candle against China in the Asia-Pacific.

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## samsara

In Rick Joe's latest article on the PLA Navy (PLAN) plan, the part on the submarine things is of great unknown... while OTOH the huge expansion facility at Bohai is pretty real. Therefore one just needs to think it over what the PLAN will do in submarine things. By nature, these kinds of stuffs are having a high degree of secrecy, thus no much to see... but it is also impossible to think that such great investment will be wasted and sitting idly... he he he the MSM-version of "Ghost Cities" in military field,,, or the *CNN-version of the Ghost Metro Station in Chongqing*  I believe there will be plenty of PLAN's SSN & SSBN in years to come, it's just a matter of How and When they'll let the world know...







* * * * *

The aforementioned *nuclear submarine production line at Bohai* has largely reached completion, however recent high quality satellite photos irrefutably demonstrate that *another new submarine assembly hall is being constructed in the southern part of the site*. This *new southern hall* appears to be a similar length to the recently *finished eastern hall*, and will feature *four sets of rail tracks* of the 7.34m gauge – appropriate for *nuclear attack submarines* rather than ballistic missile submarines. Notably, the spacing between these four tracks is greater than the tracks at the eastern hall, lacking the secondary 13.55m gauge option, suggesting this new southern hall might be dedicated for more efficient *attack submarine production*. Nevertheless, in terms of new *assembly floor area*, this new southern hall represents an expansion of *at least two-thirds* compared to the existing eastern hall.

*The rationale for such an expansion in nuclear submarine assembly space at this new facility, before the first submarine has even been launched from their line, can only be interpreted in a few limited ways.*

_Whether the PLA Navy will see a similar large-scale procurement of *nuclear submarines* and *aircraft carriers* in future is *not known*, but the *newly finished (and still expanding) nuclear submarine facility at Bohai*, and the *demonstrated two carrier-capable shipyards* might be worth considering._

_








Chinese Navy (PLAN) News & Discussions


A Russian blogger posted following picture with some info, and iirc, previously some member already posted the pic here but without any info. Translated from Russian: Облик четвертого китайского авианосца: dambiev — LiveJournal The look of the fourth Chinese aircraft carrier The official...



defence.pk




_

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## zectech

On my twitter feed


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344277055928676354

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## Figaro

zectech said:


> On my twitter feed
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344277055928676354


*In a poll Global Times initiated on Friday, the most votes, more than 4,200 or about 14 percent, chose the Y-20 large transport aircraft as the top star weapon in the world in the year of 2020.*

I don't think we can deduce much from this article ...


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## zectech

Figaro said:


> *In a poll Global Times initiated on Friday, the most votes, more than 4,200 or about 14 percent, chose the Y-20 large transport aircraft as the top star weapon in the world in the year of 2020.*
> 
> I don't think we can deduce much from this article ...



No certainty about what, how many and when.

_The report also said that between 2021 to 2025, *China could procure more Type 054A frigates*, Type 052D destroyers, Type 055 large destroyers, Type 071 amphibious landing ships and Type 075 amphibious assault ships _

There is mention of 054B.

_Citing an anonymous insider, The Diplomat magazine reported on Friday that the Type 054B frigate, a newly developed warship reportedly equipped with an integrated electric propulsion system and more advanced than the Type 054A, *could "see movement" in 2021*. _

I am happy to hear of possibly more 054As.

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## Figaro

zectech said:


> No certainty about what, how many and when.
> 
> _The report also said that between 2021 to 2025, *China could procure more Type 054A frigates*, Type 052D destroyers, Type 055 large destroyers, Type 071 amphibious landing ships and Type 075 amphibious assault ships _
> 
> There is mention of 054B.
> 
> _Citing an anonymous insider, The Diplomat magazine reported on Friday that the Type 054B frigate, a newly developed warship reportedly equipped with an integrated electric propulsion system and more advanced than the Type 054A, *could "see movement" in 2021*. _
> 
> I am happy to hear of possibly more 054As.


The Global Times article is quoting Blitzo's report in the Diplomat ... I believe he was referring to Pop3.

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## kungfugymnast

Figaro said:


> Once again, I never said the H-20 will completely replace the H-6, just like the B-2 cannot with the B-52 in your analogy.



Whether H-20 will be flying wing or large stealth fighter bomber is still unconfirmed as they have yet to get past drawing boards. My guess is the H-20 will be large long range fighter bomber powered by 4x WS-15 engines capable of carrying 40,000lb internal payload with ferry range over 6,000nm. It won't be flying wing because it is too complex to build and only US has the technology at the moment. No point building slow cumbersome maneuverability bomber that can't defend itself.


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## White and Green with M/S

kungfugymnast said:


> Whether H-20 will be flying wing or large stealth fighter bomber is still unconfirmed as they have yet to get past drawing boards. My guess is the H-20 will be large long range fighter bomber powered by 4x WS-15 engines capable of carrying 40,000lb internal payload with ferry range over 6,000nm. It won't be flying wing because it is too complex to build and only US has the technology at the moment. No point building slow cumbersome maneuverability bomber that can't defend itself.



its already confirmed that H-20 is the flying wing design by various sources, and this not a fighter bomber but strategic bomber like Tu-160/Tu-22M3

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> H-6 is just like B-52. B-1B, B-2, and B-21 also can't replace B-52.



B-52 is still in service today because of its range and fuel efficiency. B-1B has all the capabilities except range to match the B-52G/H. That's because B-1B is smaller 136ft vs B-52G/H 160ft having smaller fuel tank as its concern was to overcome Soviets air defence systems. B-1B could replace all B-52 if US SAC don't mind paying for the fuel. B-2 and B-21 are stealth interdiction strategic bomber with different roles. 

H-6 is in fact obsolete bomber that it is still flying today mainly due to no ability to produce bomber yet. A bomber with maximum payload of 20,000 lb is considered poor looking at other active service bombers such as Tu-26, Tu-160, B-1B, B-2, B-52. Russia still flying the Tu-95/142 Bear mainly because of budget issue and cheap maintenance.

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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

kungfugymnast said:


> B-52 is still in service today because of its range and fuel efficiency. B-1B has all the capabilities except range to match the B-52G/H. That's because B-1B is smaller 136ft vs B-52G/H 160ft having smaller fuel tank as its concern was to overcome Soviets air defence systems. B-1B could replace all B-52 if US SAC don't mind paying for the fuel. B-2 and B-21 are stealth interdiction strategic bomber with different roles.
> 
> H-6 is in fact obsolete bomber that it is still flying today mainly due to no ability to produce bomber yet. A bomber with maximum payload of 20,000 lb is considered poor looking at other active service bombers such as Tu-26, Tu-160, B-1B, B-2, B-52. Russia still flying the Tu-95/142 Bear mainly because of budget issue and cheap maintenance.


Even with the H-20 in production, I still see the H-6 being produced or being upgraded ... the H-20s are simply too expensive and will be limited in quantity. As such, the H-6 is still necessary to fill the bomber gap.

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


>


亚洲特快：军工井喷十年后，咱们的念想还有啥？ (2020年12月31日)

2020年今天就要过去啦，新年之夜，咱们来看看2021年有些什么新玩意正在进行，但可能还没到能公布的节点吧。毕竟这是以后几年，咱们的念想

_GuanchaNews观察者网 (means The Observer)_






*ASIA EXPRESS: Ten years after the military boom, what else do China want?*

*The 2020 is going to be over. On the New Year's Eve, let's see what new things are going on in 2021, but it may not be the time yet to announce them. After all, this is merely our idea for the next few years*

_*Partially translated transcript (just a minor portion):*_

There's always a chain reaction all over the world. There are many seemingly unrelated events, but in fact, the combination of far reaching things.

• From a distant moment, in 1973 the fourth Middle East War triggered the oil crisis. It brought great changes to the Cold War.

• The impact of the 2008 economic crisis (or better known “Global Financial Crisis” aka. “Lehman Brothers Moment”) is even more profound

Now let's embrace the great development after 2010.

In this year of 2020, the impact on the world will be even more long-term. This scene was in the middle of this year's epidemic, the Western countries are at a loss. In front of the world, the weak side of the “Free World” has been widely opened for all to see.

There has been a feeling in the Western world for a long time that it is their system that is the beacon of mankind. However, in this epidemic crisis they have been showing a serious problem of the “systemic failure”. The logic of emphasizing the “check and balance” in facing the virus that ignores the political preaching. It seems so fragile.

China has successfully overcome the epidemic. The economic and social life is quickly returning to the right track. It shows the vitality of the Chinese society, and the advantages of the system. And, it's all pressing in the US, the achievements under the “New Cold War” policy. That makes more sense. The world is beginning to have realization against the US “dictates”. Doesn't seem to mean getting “kicked out of the league”, “isolated by the world”.

At the end of this year, the trade agreements between China-Japan and China-EU have been signed successfully. This means that the US will use either “hard power” or “soft power”. Or “smart power”? Nonetheless, either way can not interrupt China's continued development. Or exclude China from the global economy. The China-EU reached an agreement covering the comprehensive, balanced and high level investment. This is the most significant achievement in 2020.

*Military matters start at [01:52]* However, at the end of this year, the presenter wanna investigate along with you. It's something that we're doing right now. But at least in 2021, things that may not have had time to blossom and bear fruit. They are the areas of the Chinese military technologies. There is still a long way to go, China's military fans for years to come learn about the “mindfulness” of constant attention.

First, let's talk about the year of 2020. At the China's largest shipyard, the large segments are increasingly taking shape, this is a large warship built by the block building method. That's the Type 003 aircraft carrier that attracts people's attention. Of course, it is precisely because the total segment has been close to closure. There are a lot of speculation and analysis about this type of aircraft carrier. It's also getting denser... judging from the current construction of the carrier, it's a highly probable event that the total segment closure begins in 2021, it's just whether or not it can be tested in the water, it's hard to say at the moment. To be sure at least, the 003 can only be added to the Navy after the 2021. From what's known so far, the 003 main engine with the oil-fired steam turbine... (02:51)

_I don't think that I wanna continue this, but I leave it here just in case someone is willing to carry on the unfinished work... _

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## kungfugymnast

Figaro said:


> Even with the H-20 in production, I still see the H-6 being produced or being upgraded ... the H-20s are simply too expensive and will be limited in quantity. As such, the H-6 is still necessary to fill the bomber gap.



Bomber is always expensive and it depends how useful it is. It looks like H-20 development is waiting for WS-15 engines so most likely it will look more like 6000nm long range supersonic stealth large fighter bomber hopefully able to pull 5G better than B-1B maneuverability. Being a fighter bomber with powerful AESA radar with large ECM pod would make it more useful than B-1B and B-2 that are just pure bomber without much use, can't perform air patrol. Flying wing B-2 & B-21 with poor maneuverability, slow due to bad aerodynamic without air to air capability is useless against country with superior satellites, advanced defence system & stealth fighters such as China. China would have spotted B-2 that attempt to get into ALCM range on satellite and sent fighters to search and get into visual range to intercept. If the H-20 is large fighter bomber being the first in the world, it could intercept B-2 way further from ALCM launch range & destroy any ALCM launched from B-2.


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## White and Green with M/S

kungfugymnast said:


> Bomber is always expensive and it depends how useful it is. It looks like H-20 development is waiting for WS-15 engines so most likely it will look more like 6000nm long range supersonic stealth large fighter bomber hopefully able to pull 5G better than B-1B maneuverability. Being a fighter bomber with powerful AESA radar with large ECM pod would make it more useful than B-1B and B-2 that are just pure bomber without much use, can't perform air patrol. Flying wing B-2 & B-21 with poor maneuverability, slow due to bad aerodynamic without air to air capability is useless against country with superior satellites, advanced defence system & stealth fighters such as China. China would have spotted B-2 that attempt to get into ALCM range on satellite and sent fighters to search and get into visual range to intercept. If the H-20 is large fighter bomber being the first in the world, it could intercept B-2 way further from ALCM launch range & destroy any ALCM launched from B-2.


Bombers don't need to have agility and maneuverability to survive, in fact most air to air fights in past or present or in future does need a maneuverability for survival in air to air combat because of SRAAM and BVR have a maneuverability/agility that beyond the human tolerance, so basically first line of defense against SRAAMs and BVRAAMs is electronic warfare systems not maneuverability or agility of the bombers and fighter jets


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## kungfugymnast

White and Green with M/S said:


> Bombers don't need to have agility and maneuverability to survive, in fact most air to air fights in past or present or in future does need a maneuverability for survival in air to air combat because of SRAAM and BVR have a maneuverability/agility that beyond the human tolerance, so basically first line of defense against SRAAMs and BVRAAMs is electronic warfare systems not maneuverability or agility of the bombers and fighter jets



If the role is solely air to ground then maneuverability not a concern for bombers such as Tu-160 and B-2 that could barely reach 3G, turning these bombers around required real huge turning circle. The B-1R made for intercontinental air to air engagement has ability to pull 5G to change heading fast to track and launch dozens of AMRAAMs at multiple enemy fighters then quickly turn around and flee before getting into ECM failing range or enemy fighters effective missiles range.


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## White and Green with M/S

kungfugymnast said:


> If the role is solely air to ground then maneuverability not a concern for bombers such as Tu-160 and B-2 that could barely reach 3G, turning these bombers around required real huge turning circle. The B-1R made for intercontinental air to air engagement has ability to pull 5G to change heading fast to track and launch dozens of AMRAAMs at multiple enemy fighters then quickly turn around and flee before getting into ECM failing range or enemy fighters effective missiles range.


Its a old and obsolete concept, quite similar to USN 60s era concepts before the development of F-14, USN and USAF thinks that within visual range air to air fight was over and next era will be in BVR arena so there was a project called Missiler can't remember the project name. that on a subsonic plate form they had have to to put 6-10 BVRs to intercept soviet bombers attacking their battle groups from standoff ranges but this project was cancelled, same goes to B-1R project because after its was firing all of its BVRs its can't flee and defend itself because of limited speed and maneuverability


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## Deino

*Guys ... can we stick to the topic and leave out again long discussions on operational concepts, history and whatever! *

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347937669557350400

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347937669557350400


Any mention of the WS-19?


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## Deino

FuturePAF said:


> Any mention of the WS-19?




So far I saw only this tweet

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## Deino

Well ... this list goes even further ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348226814481747970


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## S10

I want to see a dedicated EW variant of J-15, like the EA-18G.

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## vi-va

52051 said:


> China's geo-position means 096 is nowhere as important as the next Chinese ICBM on land.
> 
> The sea area around China are too shallow, the average depth of Bohai is only 30 meter or so, impossible to accommodate large subarmines.
> 
> For east sea, not much better.
> 
> So the US will have a very easy job to spot China's large SSBNs there.
> 
> The only place which is deep enough for large SSBN is south China sea, but then the SLBM will require to have much larger range to cover the US than land-based ICBMs, kind of render SSBN pointless.
> 
> Unless we take Taiwan and use its as a base, SSBN will always come serve a secondary role in China's nuclear arsenal.


True. Land TEL ICBM, stored under the 1000+m granite is the safest and best ICBM suitable for China.
unless we drove Yankees off the first island chain, 096 is much less safer than TEL ICBM.


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## Oldman1

Deino said:


> Where do you see a cockpit?
> 
> View attachment 699449


In the first pic I looked at.






The one you posted is obviously different. Even the rear fuselage is different from the first pics. First one shows 2 engines probably 6th gen fighter maybe. The ones you posted shows 1 engine.

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## Deino

Oldman1 said:


> In the first pic I looked at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one you posted is obviously different. Even the rear fuselage is different from the first pics. First one shows 2 engines probably 6th gen fighter maybe. The ones you posted shows 1 engine.




The one in the first image is IMO the J-35!

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## 52051

Oldman1 said:


> In the first pic I looked at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The one you posted is obviously different. Even the rear fuselage is different from the first pics. First one shows 2 engines probably 6th gen fighter maybe. The ones you posted shows 1 engine.



The video is from a design competition, some are even designed by fans.

Even models in Zhuhai Airshow has more weight.

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## IblinI

Any thoughts guys? a drone, photoshops or???


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## Deino

IblinI said:


> Any thoughts guys? a drone, photoshops or???
> View attachment 708234
> 
> View attachment 708235




IMO a PS-fake ... since would it be real you would have seen it already all over in other media too.

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## Oldman1

52051 said:


> The video is from a design competition, some are even designed by fans.
> 
> Even models in Zhuhai Airshow has more weight.


Oh thanks for pointing that out. Thought it was official.


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## Inception-06

Deino said:


> Just as the title says I think we had some major developments and breakthroughs in 2020 and I'm sure China won't disappoint us in 2021: so what can we expect in 2021 for PLA watchers?
> 
> My wishes are most of all:
> 
> - the unveiling of the J-35 prototype
> - conclusive answer on the Type 003's powerpack and general layout
> - clear images of J-20A & WS-10C in PLAAF colours (from the second frontline unit)
> - news on the WS-15
> - clear images of the KJ-600 prototype
> - Y-20U service entry and clear images of the Y-20B
> - Z-20 naval variant service entry
> - maybe news on the new attack helicopter (as @IblinI suggested)
> - some UAV surprises
> 
> ... and I'm not sure if to wish to get a glimpse of the H-20 is already too much to hope for.
> 
> And you?



I bought this 3 today, you are the author right ? Is it also available in German ?


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## Deino

Inception-06 said:


> I bought this 3 today, you are the author right ? Is it also available in German ?
> View attachment 722983




Yes indeed, I'm the author - and I hope you like it! In case of any complaints, critics or ideas please contact me again.

And sorry NO, there is no German version available ... so let me ask: Are you a German?

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## Inception-06

Deino said:


> Yes indeed, I'm the author - and I hope you like it! In case of any complaints, critics or ideas please contact me again.
> 
> And sorry NO, there is no German version available ... so let me ask: Are you a German?


Ja ich lebe in Berlin und bin hier aufgewachsen ( habe auch den Grundwehrdienst geleistet) komme aber ursprünglich aus Pakistan, ich habe noch ein viertes Buch von dir bestellt, ich denke das sind alles neue Auflagen und müssten den aktuellen Stand der Chinesischen Luftwaffe beinhalten. Yes I am a Pakistani who lives and works in Germany, I Ordered a fourth one hopefully all are actuall and reflect the actual standard of the Chinese Air Force.
Ich habe ihnen in einem sozialen Netzwerk heute eine Einladung gesendet...

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## Deino

Inception-06 said:


> Ja ich lebe in Berlin und bin hier aufgewachsen ( habe auch den Grundwehrdienst geleistet) komme aber ursprünglich aus Pakistan, ich habe noch ein viertes Buch von dir bestellt, ich denke das sind alles neue Auflagen und müssten den aktuellen Stand der Chinesischen Luftwaffe beinhalten. Yes I am a Pakistani who lives and works in Germany, I Ordered a fourth one hopefully all are actuall and reflect the actual standard of the Chinese Air Force.
> Ich habe ihnen in einem sozialen Netzwerk heute eine Einladung gesendet...
> View attachment 722999
> View attachment 723000




Indeed, they are all recent - the two older ones are the original "Modern Chinese Warplanes", which was split into the three volumes you ordered first and "Flashpoint China", which is more a strategic booklet.

Hope you like them.

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