# Pakistan FUTURE soldier Program Ambitions



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Future Soldier

Soldier Modernisation | ACR Lethality Focus (CZECHOSLOVAKIA)







While near term capability enhancements are the current priority, *thinking has moved over to what Pakistan's soldier modernisation programme might look like with planning for Pakistan's SMP being in its initial phases.*

Improvement to lethality figures strongly in Pakistan's thinking which will see the replacement of the 7.62mm H&K G3 with *light caliber assault rifle with various attachments and add-on features such as under barrel grenade launcher, holographic sights and multi-function laser pointer/target designator*. To this will be added Non Lethal Weapons to better cater for the requirement of Operations Other Than War, Gen. Hussain stated that NLWs are currently being evaluated from the international market. Modern portable Anti tank weapon systems are being assessed.

Unusually on the requirements side, *Pakistan is seeking a new flamethrower.* Pakistan's current equipment is seen as being of an &#8220;old vintage&#8221; and the military is currently &#8220;evaluating latest standards of Flame Throwers with enhanced capacity of fuel and range.&#8221; Battle field Identification Friend or Foe for vehicles and dismounted infantry soldier systems available on the international market are now being examined.

In communications terms a *&#8220;Personal Net Digital Radio&#8221; is required with integrated GPS and with the, &#8220;capability to be linked with a PDA (Personal Data Assistant) at second in command level*.&#8221; A low level Multi-band inter/intra team radio with ground to air transmission facility is also required.

*This will be supplemented by an Individual Soldier's Computer Communication. Which is described as being smart enough to display information and provide position/navigation data. Soldiers will be able to view information through a hand held colour display or through an integrated head gear subsystem display.*

Pakistan has a requirement for an *Infantry Battle Field Command and Information System*. This will integrate infantry soldiers' communication with other arms especially with air assets and permit unit command posts to exchange data from *battalion level down to infantry platoon and section levels as well as to higher Headquarters.*

In term of personal protective equipment, a Light weight helmet compatible with NBC masks and *night vision is being pursued with integrated headgear for a ballistic protective helmet shell*, light weight garments, lightweight anti-mine combat shoes and body armour with integrated elbow and knee protection being some of them.

Gen. Hussain stated that Pakistan is currently evaluating modern lightly armoured and air transportable vehicles from the international market which can perform the role of &#8220;Mother Ship&#8221; for Infantry sections or teams by enhancing the Infantry man's mobility under armour protection.

In terms of Night Vision Gen. Hussain stated, &#8220;Our area of focus is on Image intensification sights and thermal sights for Small Arms and Light Anti Tank weapons, Hand held image intensification scopes and Night Vision Goggles for commanders and operators of crew served weapons/drivers and Light weight observation kit for mortar fire controllers.&#8221;

He continued that there is a *&#8220;dire need&#8221; *for Night Vision Devices which is being felt during cordon and search operations suggesting this is the near term priority.

In terms of night vision requirements Pakistan sees these as; light in weight, water proof, small in size, user friendly and having functional controls like polarity, brightness, gain, recital movement and focusing. The systems should also have auxiliary Infra Red illumination facility for map reading and multi-functions like night driving, patrols, combat action and security duties should be able to fix an array of weapon systems manufactured by the Pakistan Ordnance Factory. n

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## notorious_eagle

LOVETOALL said:


> But where is the money ??



In the defence budget

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## A1Kaid

I suppose in limited numbers Pakistan can maintain "future soldiers", soldiers equipped with state of the art technology and training.

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## TaimiKhan

*2 got the bans, anymore willing for a ban ?? Do troll then. *

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## Windjammer

*
Pakistan Army does keep abreast of developments, even it's modern day soldiers are well equipped for today's warfare and other challenges.*

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## JAT BALWAN

Windjammer said:


> *
> Pakistan Army does keep abreast of developments, even it's modern day soldiers are well equipped for today's warfare and other challenges.*




Cool pic windy...

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## Abingdonboy

Windjammer said:


> *
> Pakistan Army does keep abreast of developments, even it's modern day soldiers are well equipped for today's warfare and other challenges.*



These are the SFs. The issue is with the general infantry.

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## Tehmasib

I sure that some our Infantry units already been equipped with NV, M-16/M-4, AR-10 ( sniper rifle) ....trained in CQB, etc

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## Leader

Im not comfortable with the helmet, rest the demo suits look just perfect !!


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> *
> Pakistan Army does keep abreast of developments, even it's modern day soldiers are well equipped for today's warfare and other challenges.*



The camel pack, weapon, side arm, comm sets, helmet and tactical vest is pretty much standard issue with the officers and a good chunk of the infantry in SW area, the one that I have observed.

The add ons with the weapons are then bought by officers and other folks off the market (RDS, Grip etc) or scavenged from dead Taliban. Boots are a personal choice as well with majority officers.

The common soldier (majority) in SW has fair enough accessories on him, but getting this stuff across the board might be a challenge with the current funds.

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## Windjammer

Abingdonboy said:


> These are the SFs. The issue is with the general infantry.



Who said there was any issue in the first place. ??

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## Irfan Baloch

there will be marked change eventually in all world armies in terms of their formation and structure. where money and technology is not an issue we already see such changes with empahsis on spacial forces, small but rapid deployment highly mobile forces with the equal fire power to a much larger but conventional force.


the biggest change in modernisation has to come in the thinking and philosophy of war, not just the latest bag of gadgets and gizmos. if the military planners and leadership lacks the vision of the future then its soldiers will be just targets and cannon fodder.

situational awareness, battle filed overview, stealth, communication, enemy positions, surprise, out flanking , speed and the like will work when the fighting forces are adapted and trained to take advantage of that. only then these spcial body armors, sensors and secure comm links and ultra lethal weapons will show their real potential

looking at the Pakistani military, specially its army formations, it is a long long way to go. it seems that the planners are locked in the past just like the generals of the first world war with the mindset of the trench warfare mentality which not only resulted in unimaginable body count but also a stalemate and then utter defeat when it was rubbished by the oppsing side by the use of armour and mobility.

to be specific, I would suggest that the educational gap and IQ (bunch of all mental goodness) between commissioned officers and JCO/ NCOs and the Jawans must narrow down this is far easier to achieve than getting a dragon skin body armour or a shoulder mounted plasma cannon.

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## Tehmasib

A little bit hint for senior members....now u think what I said above

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## XYON

Oh Bhai ...........WHAT future soldier are we talking about here!! 

Your average Infantry Man is currently a low paid grunt belonging to some Kot or Chak No.42 in Punjab or a Pathan from some remote rock part of KPK!!! Army gives him employment & benefits to shoot in the direction ordered & he does that without question before retiring and then getting in line as an old man for his pension or being hired by some security company as a guard on Rs.6000-Rs.7000 per month!!! During his service he looks like a starved Ethopian holding a G-3 that is as tall as he is!!! He is fed Daal and ordinary roti on permanent basis while pullao is an occasional Eid for the entire company!! He works like a dog during peace time generally doing orderly duties for the Col Sb or Major Sb from polishing shoes to fetching rotis from the local tandoor!!! 

Whatever remains goes into the SSG and pose for the cameras to get photos above!!!!

So I ask again, WHAT FUTURE SOLDIER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

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## Don Jaguar

XYON said:


> Oh Bhai ...........WHAT future soldier are we talking about here!!
> 
> Your average Infantry Man is currently a low paid grunt belonging to some Kot or Chak No.42 in Punjab or a Pathan from some remote rock part of KPK!!! Army gives him employment & benefits to shoot in the direction ordered & he does that without question before retiring and then getting in line as an old man for his pension or being hired by some security company as a guard on Rs.6000-Rs.7000 per month!!! During his service he looks like a starved Ethopian holding a G-3 that is as tall as he is!!! He is fed Daal and ordinary roti on permanent basis while pullao is an occasional Eid for the entire company!! He works like a dog during peace time generally doing orderly duties for the Col Sb or Major Sb from polishing shoes to fetching rotis from the local tandoor!!!
> 
> Whatever remains goes into the SSG and pose for the cameras to get photos above!!!!
> 
> So I ask again, WHAT FUTURE SOLDIER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?



What is the salary of a jawan?

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## Abingdonboy

Windjammer said:


> Who said there was any issue in the first place. ??



If you want to be pedantic- "the issue at hand" then.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

From my prespective , Pakistan forces are planning a major upgrade on soliders equipment and the article demonstrates what is expected 

a) Enhanced weapons 
b) Better Vision , information systems (Solider`s data) 
c) Secured communications
d) Ability to communicate with Air units 
e) Seriousness in aquiring the knowlege

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## Mech

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> e) Seriousness in aquiring the knowlege





Why so serious ?

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## gangsta_rap

Mech said:


> Why so serious ?



Wow,your pretty original....not

Regardless did anyone read about the part where it says that flamethrowers are being considered? That would be pretty badass when you think about it.


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## Irfan Baloch

GIANTsasquatch said:


> Wow,your pretty original....not
> 
> Regardless did anyone read about the part where it says that flamethrowers are being considered? That would be pretty badass when you think about it.



thats when I decided to take this "article" as fan based wish list.
flame throwers are thing of the past. a well "placed" phosphorus grenade thrown by hand or a launcher can do the job in a second from distance and without the risk of carrying a very volatile and heavy system itself,

this concept is meant for clearing pill boxes , bunkers and the like. on an open battle field flame thrower will be made a torch himself by the enemy from range and he will also take out rest of his platoon with him.

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## Irfan Baloch

Mech said:


> Why so serious ?



its a serious business you see, once you have enhanced vision and weapons you have to stop joking because even the air units will hear what you are talking about and they might take offence

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## BordoEnes

I dont see this happening for atleast a decade why? Future Soldier modernization ussually are being ordered by Nations (Mainly Western) which have small proffesional army, Consisting mainly of contracted soldiers. Since Pakistan has a huge number of Constripts this will be a waste of money equiping it to soldiers with little expierence. Thats the Reason why the TEK-ER of the Turkish Army is still not ordered yet, Turkey first aims to have a more proffesional army...


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## gangsta_rap

BordoEnes said:


> Since Pakistan has a huge number of *Constripts* this will be a waste of money equiping it to soldiers with* little expierence*.




It's an all volunteer force,serving in the military is basically a tradition for some families

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## gangsta_rap

BordoEnes said:


> Since Pakistan has a huge number of *Constripts* this will be a waste of money equiping it to soldiers with* little expierence*.




It's an all volunteer force,serving in the military is basically a tradition for some families


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## BordoEnes

GIANTsasquatch said:


> It's an all volunteer force,serving in the military is basically a tradition for some families



Hmmm I read somehwhere that Pakistan had Consription, Must have misread... Still though you have a huge army.


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## SEAL

Don Jaguar said:


> What is the salary of a jawan?



Basic 7k-8k....


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## notorious_eagle

Irfan Baloch said:


> the biggest change in modernisation has to come in the thinking and philosophy of war, not just the latest bag of gadgets and gizmos. if the military planners and leadership lacks the vision of the future then its soldiers will be just targets and cannon fodder.



You have hit the bulls eye with that Sir



Irfan Baloch said:


> situational awareness, battle filed overview, stealth, communication, enemy positions, surprise, out flanking , speed and the like will work when the fighting forces are adapted and trained to take advantage of that. only then these spcial body armors, sensors and secure comm links and ultra lethal weapons will show their real potential



Indeed. This is why you can see that PA has made it a priority to focus on mobility, speed and mechanization. PA right now is a fully network centric oriented organization. Every unit of PA is now fully connected through the headquarters. It has already been revealed that PA possess TS-504 Mobile Troposcatter Communications System, this has seriously added a major punch to PA's communication command and control. PA in my opinion is on the right path, they just need to shed some



Irfan Baloch said:


> looking at the Pakistani military, specially its army formations, it is a long long way to go. it seems that the planners are locked in the past just like the generals of the first world war with the mindset of the trench warfare mentality which not only resulted in unimaginable body count but also a stalemate and then utter defeat when it was rubbished by the oppsing side by the use of armour and mobility.



IA is still training to fight PA on Corps Level, this is why PA still relies heavily on numbers. The Cold Start Doctrine is still on paper, IA has not changed its command and structure to fight PA on division level. PA is taking the right steps by adding more mechanized and armoured forces to add teeth to its Strike Formations. This has been nicely accompanied by addition of new artillery and MBRLS systems. PA cannot afford to reduce numbers because we are facing an enemy that can field more than a million soldiers, we need numbers. We are not NATO that requires highly trained mobile expeditionary forces that need to be deployed half way around the world. We need to protect the Mother Land, thus for that numbers are necessary. 



Irfan Baloch said:


> to be specific, I would suggest that the educational gap and IQ (bunch of all mental goodness) between commissioned officers and JCO/ NCOs and the Jawans must narrow down this is far easier to achieve than getting a dragon skin body armour or a shoulder mounted plasma cannon.



Sir for that to happen, we would need to raise up the level of education all around the country.

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## Backbencher

Except the American soldiers the modernization of literally every soldier will take place in the same time because nowadays money is not a problem unless you are Spanish or Greek .


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## tarrar

I am pretty sure Pak Army is working on modernization of the Army. SSG is going to be the first to get modernized before the regular troops. Pak Army needs to get modernized fast, especially they need to get modern weapons for the army.


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## hackerharis

we shouldn't discuss salary of anyone here


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## Tehmasib




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## Tehmasib

@nuclearpak NO dear this counter terror unit bro


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## Abingdonboy

Tehmasib said:


> @nuclearpak NO dear this counter terror unit bro



Police of army sir.


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## Tehmasib

Police .....qualified in CRT (crises response team)

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I feel real improvement will be with `small COM devices`to relay battle data to command center 
Soliders having ability to talk to Airforce airsupport from ground. 
Soldiers having GPS like devices to pin point friendly forces locations protected 
Night vision and laser sight wepons , for better output in night
Better Armor for knees and joints
Technology has to become visible more prominently

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We can get the helmets from China

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## AUSTERLITZ

What would you replace the g3 with?


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## BordoEnes

AUSTERLITZ said:


> What would you replace the g3 with?



G-3 will probably remain in service, Its a very good rifle, Cost effective and above all has the right calibre round. What i see is pakistani army equiping these with more attachements and scopes, Increasing the weapons effectivnes.

--------------------------------

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## AUSTERLITZ

But its a 1950s design.How can it be a future soldier platform?I'm not talking about totally replacing it as that would be prohibitively expensive.But for a part of the forces that will be slowly upgrading to Future soldier programme i think a new rifle is necessary.How about g36?The german army's succesor to the g3.I see turkey uses it,any programme on a future soldier with a new rifle?


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## SQ8

AUSTERLITZ said:


> But its a 1950s design.How can it be a future soldier platform?I'm not talking about totally replacing it as that would be prohibitively expensive.But for a part of the forces that will be slowly upgrading to Future soldier programme i think a new rifle is necessary.How about g36?The german army's succesor to the g3.I see turkey uses it,any programme on a future soldier with a new rifle?



The last time a rifle was licenced(HK MP-5).. there were massive stories and allegations of rigging between the commands left and right.
And probably true.

Moreover, the amount paid for the HK-5 licence.. its production machinery.. was laced with icing for a certain brass element.

So there is a lot of hesitance to go all out for another complete Weapon induction and not end up with vested interests(which control their own power lobbies) to end up handing the PA with a rifle equivalent of a fish.

The AK-74M is actually the better option as it is manufacture-able.. and maintainable on existing facilities.


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## MilSpec

Apart from the firearm discussion, the content of MOLLE that the soldiers carry is pertenint to this discussion. Few items that com to my mind are, C4, charge fuse (detntr), Hand held coms package, laser rangefinder, optical scope/red *** to switch on primary weapon, mre's, hand held UAV for every squad, etc.... Would like to know what are the other systems member here think should be included in the system?

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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> Apart from the firearm discussion, the content of MOLLE that the soldiers carry is pertenint to this discussion. Few items that com to my mind are, C4, charge fuse (detntr), Hand held coms package, laser rangefinder, optical scope/red *** to switch on primary weapon, mre's, hand held UAV for every squad, etc.... Would like to know what are the other systems member here think should be included in the system?



C4 would be irrelevant to all the soldiers except perhaps the Demo teams...which in this case are the RPG-7/9 folks.
Hand held comms exist with all squad leaders in WoT ops already..and as more units are rotated.. will end up with most of the other units too. Optical scope's are now being retrofitted by the team and in some case soldiers themselves(from the stolen US stock that ends up in Pakistani Bazaars). 
Rangefingers that also link up to Arty in the rear may be a good thing. 
UAV Rover terminals were demonstrated to the PA but deemed to expensive to be sent out into the field.
instead.. UAV feeds are beamed to commanders only at this stage who are in direct contact with Squad leaders.

What is needed are quick med packs, that stop bleeding and keep troops alive.
Also, Thermal vision equipment for designated marksmen and breach(not omni directional) charges for the demo team are what is needed.

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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> C4 would be irrelevant to all the soldiers except perhaps the Demo teams...which in this case are the RPG-7/9 folks.
> Hand held comms exist with all squad leaders in WoT ops already..and as more units are rotated.. will end up with most of the other units too. Optical scope's are now being retrofitted by the team and in some case soldiers themselves(from the stolen US stock that ends up in Pakistani Bazaars).
> Rangefingers that also link up to Arty in the rear may be a good thing.
> UAV Rover terminals were demonstrated to the PA but deemed to expensive to be sent out into the field.
> instead.. UAV feeds are beamed to commanders only at this stage who are in direct contact with Squad leaders.
> 
> What is needed are quick med packs, that stop bleeding and keep troops alive.
> Also, Thermal vision equipment for designated marksmen and breach(not omni directional) charges for the demo team are what is needed.



I thought 1staid kits were standard with soldiers. thermal visions are a good addition, small c4's charges can come in handy during urban fire fights. The in helmet mounted eye piece that relays most of operational data to the soldiers, i am not sure what it is called can be supremely useful.


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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> I thought 1staid kits were standard with soldiers. thermal visions are a good addition, small c4's charges can come in handy during urban fire fights. The in helmet mounted eye piece that relays most of operational data to the soldiers, i am not sure what it is called can be supremely useful.



Not the sort of Kits that would work instantly.
The first aid kit in use today is not with all troops(designated ones only) ..and is still the good old gauze,alcohol, Swab,Scissor and tape variety.
A better one would ready made "packs" of Alcohol Dabbed stick on Gauze Packs.. pain killer injections.. etc
Somewhat like what the US Soldier has.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well , looking the current counter Insurgency efforts the friend vs foe signitures would identify fake (soldiers) easily as these would be picked up easily. 

Also any night time operations could be easily dealt with specially if we had proper units 100,000-200,000 with Night Vision visors 

But GPS and Navigation in todays wars is a must its just a great advantage to know your location your friendly units location 
and also share the information with command center 

The individul Medical Packs are great addition but the problem I think with infantary units is that you alway try to minimize weight carried by soldiers 


Soldiers carry 

Weapons 
Ammo 
Food Packs (if that is available) 
Water 
Rifiles
Shot Gun 
Shoulder held weapons (missiles)

Not to mention Soldier`s shoes that are quite heavy 
So anything extra adds to weight 

One solution is that you use a Robot (Companion) which can carry the load for you 






For Pakistan`s forces I think we cannot yet go beyond , Visors + Night Vision and perhaps a GPS + Helmet 
The small (UAV could be carried by special soldiers) 

Again it depends on Soldier`s fitness levels

However , usage of technology has to start appearing in our infantary units as part of modernization


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## Irfan Baloch

our future war will be with the insurgents, pirates and terrorists
this phenomenon of Somali pirates, Al Qaeda & much less known western counter parts 
technology & training will be the key to adapt to that kind of the war.

a future soldier will have to be smarter and more resourceful than our average grunt.


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## monitor

Irfan Baloch said:


> our future war will be with the insurgents, pirates and terrorists
> this phenomenon of Somali pirates, Al Qaeda & much less known western counter parts
> technology & training will be the key to adapt to that kind of the war.
> 
> a future soldier will have to be smarter and more resourceful than our average grunt.



So you give up India as your enemy ? no war with India


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## Dr. Strangelove

monitor said:


> So you give up India as your enemy ? no war with India



heared about something called complete mutual distruction

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The question is not that the future war will be with Terrorist or Pirates or Aliens the bottom line is that all line of defence needs upgrading. 

Footsoldiers , troops play an important role and they do need modernized weapons , and better ratio of success vs opponents 

If 1 Pakistani soldier is equiped to bring down 30 insurgents then yes the modernization efforts have improved our soldiers capacity

I strongly feel that if Pakistan had

a) Night vision 
b) Friend and foe signitures 
c) Better Tactical awareness 
d) Tactical communication and special units equipped with special weapons

Things such as Insurgent attacks could have been handled more swiftly 

And in any case the Army has to be on level with rest of world 
we can`t just update uniform and call our selves 21st century army the modernization has to be reflected in technology we use on battle field

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## HAIDER

Pakistan army can equip soldier with every gadgets but it need two most important factor need to bring in the army .
First soldier should be educated enough to know the the significance of this gadgets.
Second, every soldier need to be picked up by satellite, which communicate with air wing to avoid any casualty in friendly fire. So, Pakistan army should built a small communication satellite network. Because these UAV also need satellite system. Otherwise army have limitation during any operation. Now war is game of communication.

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## jaunty

monitor said:


> So you give up India as your enemy ? no war with India



You sound terribly disappointed


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## zulfiqar74

XYON said:


> Oh Bhai ...........WHAT future soldier are we talking about here!!
> 
> Your average Infantry Man is currently a low paid grunt belonging to some Kot or Chak No.42 in Punjab or a Pathan from some remote rock part of KPK!!! Army gives him employment & benefits to shoot in the direction ordered & he does that without question before retiring and then getting in line as an old man for his pension or being hired by some security company as a guard on Rs.6000-Rs.7000 per month!!! During his service he looks like a starved Ethopian holding a G-3 that is as tall as he is!!! He is fed Daal and ordinary roti on permanent basis while pullao is an occasional Eid for the entire company!! He works like a dog during peace time generally doing orderly duties for the Col Sb or Major Sb from polishing shoes to fetching rotis from the local tandoor!!!
> 
> Whatever remains goes into the SSG and pose for the cameras to get photos above!!!!
> 
> So I ask again, WHAT FUTURE SOLDIER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?




Very true. I totally agree with you... 
soldiers are not well taken care off....



XYON said:


> Oh Bhai ...........WHAT future soldier are we talking about here!!
> 
> Your average Infantry Man is currently a low paid grunt belonging to some Kot or Chak No.42 in Punjab or a Pathan from some remote rock part of KPK!!! Army gives him employment & benefits to shoot in the direction ordered & he does that without question before retiring and then getting in line as an old man for his pension or being hired by some security company as a guard on Rs.6000-Rs.7000 per month!!! During his service he looks like a starved Ethopian holding a G-3 that is as tall as he is!!! He is fed Daal and ordinary roti on permanent basis while pullao is an occasional Eid for the entire company!! He works like a dog during peace time generally doing orderly duties for the Col Sb or Major Sb from polishing shoes to fetching rotis from the local tandoor!!!
> 
> Whatever remains goes into the SSG and pose for the cameras to get photos above!!!!
> 
> So I ask again, WHAT FUTURE SOLDIER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?




Very true. I totally agree with you... 
soldiers are not well taken care off....

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## RangerPK

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Future Soldier
> 
> 
> .[/*Pakistan is seeking a new flamethrower.* . n




Isn't It harm to kill someone with fire?


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## Reddawn

RangerPK said:


> Isn't It harm to kill someone with fire?



Really?!

The original report is old and lack of funds have slowed down the PA's plans to modernise infantry gear. The only thing I can see actually materialising apart from new comms, infantry body armour etc for deployed units is the 'mothership' - i.e. the Chinese MRAP being acquired for COIN ops.

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## blain2

zulfiqar74 said:


> Very true. I totally agree with you...
> soldiers are not well taken care off....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very true. I totally agree with you...
> soldiers are not well taken care off....




Says who? Lets speak factually. Silly generalizations don't help.


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## Genesis

that looks sick, almost something from a movie. Somebody's been playing too much ghost recon 4


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## A1Kaid

blain2 said:


> Says who? Lets speak factually. Silly generalizations don't help.



Look at the suzuki pick up truck vehicles many of the soldiers are dispatched on. Look at the FC given inadequate equipment, lack of radios, etc.

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## blain2

XYON said:


> Oh Bhai ...........WHAT future soldier are we talking about here!!
> 
> Your average Infantry Man is currently a low paid grunt belonging to some Kot or Chak No.42 in Punjab or a Pathan from some remote rock part of KPK!!! Army gives him employment & benefits to shoot in the direction ordered & he does that without question before retiring and then getting in line as an old man for his pension or being hired by some security company as a guard on Rs.6000-Rs.7000 per month!!! During his service he looks like a starved Ethopian holding a G-3 that is as tall as he is!!! He is fed Daal and ordinary roti on permanent basis while pullao is an occasional Eid for the entire company!! He works like a dog during peace time generally doing orderly duties for the Col Sb or Major Sb from polishing shoes to fetching rotis from the local tandoor!!!
> 
> Whatever remains goes into the SSG and pose for the cameras to get photos above!!!!
> 
> So I ask again, WHAT FUTURE SOLDIER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?



Our jawan is no different than what you see on the horizon across South Asia. As far as what he eats and looks like is concerned, its his staple that he gets and its his genetic makeup that makes him look like an Ethiopian to those who are taken in by the Rambo muscularity that one gets inundated with in the movies. Regardless of his Ethiopian looks, he is as tough as they come. He follows orders to the letter which is better than having troops that take matters into their own hands. He is fed what he would eat in his normal life, which is daal, roti and bhaaji so why is this being mentioned derogatorily?

He certainly does not get involved in orderly duties any more in the way it used to be and the ones who used to "opt" for orderly duties did it out of their own accord as life was much easier being an orderly than when on duty in the unit. 

I know your post is old but I can apply the very same reductionist approach to anything and make it look very crude and basic, but the reality here is that like all progressive armies, despite the funding crunch, there is a modernization program in place and it will take its due course.

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## RangerPK

I hope our government does not compromise the education budget for the sake of upgrading the army.

I want my children to have better education than me. Inshallah.


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## blain2

A1Kaid said:


> Look at the suzuki pick up truck vehicles many of the soldiers are dispatched on. Look at the FC given inadequate equipment, lack of radios, etc.




This thread is about the Army and not the FC. Lets stick to one issue at a time. FC is a paramilitary outfit, different budget (MoI), different priorities etc. etc.

There is no shortage of radios in the regular Army. The communications capability down to section level is well defined in terms of equipment to be allocated which includes radios.



RangerPK said:


> I hope our government does not compromise the education budget for the sake of upgrading the army.
> 
> I want my children to have better education than me. Inshallah.



RangerPK, Pakistan's education budget is not eaten up by defence allocation. The single biggest outlay is the debt servicing. Its double the % of budget that gets consumed by national defence.


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## A1Kaid

blain2 said:


> This thread is about the Army and not the FC. Lets stick to one issue at a time. FC is a paramilitary, different budget, different priorities etc. etc.



That's fine, but even many Army soldiers are dispatched in open pick up trucks used by Army, they provide inadequate protection to the soldiers so that when they come under fire or hit by explosion casualty rates are higher than had they been in a protected armored vehicle.


















Soldiers should always be in armored protected vehicles when conducting patrol especially in hostile territory.

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## blain2

Well there you have to think about the problem. Pakistan has significant armoured personnel carrier capability but it is all tracked. What is needed in that terrain is a wheeled platform. Which means that you need to either up armour the existing wheeled vehicles (Toyota Hilux etc.) or introduce a fully mission built platform which means even greater capital outlay than what the 22% of the defence budget allows for. New MRAPs are being introduced, but its a costly proposition. So that expense aside, the idea is you modernize what is possible so as a result, a stop gap measure was introduced putting protective plates on the sides of the vehicles. Providing more firepower to the infantry is another area under works currently. So what is possible is being done. If we want all of the gear that you see the Western Armies deploying then more of us Pakistanis need to pay taxes. It quite simple.

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## A1Kaid

blain2 said:


> Well there you have to think about the problem. Pakistan has significant armoured/protected capability but it is all tracked. *What is needed in that terrain is a wheeled platform. * Which means that you need to either up armour the existing wheeled vehicles (Toyota Hilux etc.) or introduce a fully mission built platform which means even greater capital outlay than what the 22% of the defence budget allows for. New MRAPs are being introduced, but its a costly proposition.




So what is your recommendation what specific type of vehicle should PA be using in the terrain.


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## blain2

A1Kaid said:


> So what is your recommendation what specific type of vehicle should PA be using in the terrain.



A1, I don't have a specific recommendation as I am not in the business of looking at pictures and information on the Web and making suggestions. Its the responsibility of the MVRDE to come up with a response and if they cannot, then it will be the Army who would be recommending a solution from overseas to the MoD. What I know is that a platform developed by the MVRDE is being introduced. We will have to see how their survivability is compared to the Toyota trucks being used. I am pretty sure its better but by how much and what the overall cost is, is all unknown to me.


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## A1Kaid

blain2 said:


> A1, I don't have a specific recommendation as I am not in the business of looking at pictures and information on the Web and making suggestions. Its the responsibility of the MVRDE to come up with a response and if they cannot, then it will be the Army who would be recommending a solution from overseas to the MoD. What I know is that a platform developed by the MVRDE is being introduced. We will have to see how their survivability is compared to the Toyota trucks being used. I am pretty sure its better but by how much and what the overall cost is, is all unknown to me.



Great can't wait to see what MVRDE has engineered, certainly has to be better than the current fleet of Toyota trucks.


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## Rajput_Pakistani

My cousin who is a Captain has just returned from "Hard Area" in KPK, he was saying that 80% of casualties PA suffered are due to IED's and ambushes of convoys. He said, that the standard PA transport vehicles Toyata Hilux and Shehzore mini truck are both extremely unsafe. Those vehicles for sundry duties in peace time may have been fine, but in hostile territory, these are responsible for huge casualties. He said that whenever one is ambushed, the SoP is to drive as fast as possible to flee the incoming fire. The loaded Shehzore truck in such situations at high-speeds tends to turn-turtle, after which the soldiers within becomes an easy prey for militants.
Its the sad situation to say the least.

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## blain2

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> My cousin who is a Captain has just returned from "Hard Area" in KPK, he was saying that 80% of casualties PA suffered are due to IED's and ambushes of convoys. He said, that the standard PA transport vehicles Toyata Hilux and Shehzore mini truck are both extremely unsafe. Those vehicles for sundry duties in peace time may have been fine, but in hostile territory, these are responsible for huge casualties. He said that whenever one is ambushed, the SoP is to drive as fast as possible to flee the incoming fire. The loaded Shehzore truck in such situations at high-speeds tends to turn-turtle, after which the soldiers within becomes an easy prey for militants.
> Its the sad situation to say the least.



Well this is my point to those who complain about the defence budget. Wars are expensive and its a clear cut decision that the protection for the troops needs to be first priority. But I know funding for MRAPs of foreign origin has not been approved due to continued funding problems. This is a sad story given that the military gets flak while fighting a war and yet does not get sufficient funding to protect its troops.

By the way, the SOP is the same across the border for ISAF. This is one of the shared practices. The difference in their case is that they travel in relatively safer vehicles.

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## Jango

A1Kaid said:


> So what is your recommendation what specific type of vehicle should PA be using in the terrain.



PA was looking at Casspir MRAP and also a Chinese one.

The HIT made BUrraq is also in development.


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## Reddawn

Blain2 when you mentioned that MVRDE are introducing a new vehicle are you talking about the Burraq MRAP?


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## qamar1990

XYON said:


> Oh Bhai ...........WHAT future soldier are we talking about here!!
> *
> Your average Infantry Man is currently a low paid grunt belonging to some Kot or Chak No.42 in Punjab or a Pathan f*rom some remote rock part of KPK!!! Army gives him employment & benefits to shoot in the direction ordered & he does that without question before retiring and then getting in line as an old man for his pension or being hired by some security company as a guard on Rs.6000-Rs.7000 per month!!! During his service he looks like a starved Ethopian holding a G-3 that is as tall as he is!!! He is fed Daal and ordinary roti on permanent basis while pullao is an occasional Eid for the entire company!! He works like a dog during peace time generally doing orderly duties for the Col Sb or Major Sb from polishing shoes to fetching rotis from the local tandoor!!!
> 
> Whatever remains goes into the SSG and pose for the cameras to get photos above!!!!
> 
> So I ask again, WHAT FUTURE SOLDIER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?




ok so what does the soldier belonging to chak no 42 or being a pathan have to do with anything?

the things you talking about ar about right but no need to bring up where they from, that doesnt make them any less capable, that they actually more brave since most our soldiers are from places like this and they still fighting, instead of running.

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## blain2

Reddawn said:


> Blain2 when you mentioned that MVRDE are introducing a new vehicle are you talking about the Burraq MRAP?



Yes. based on the funding availability, it seems this is the only option available. As to how quickly they get them out to the units is an unknown. It has been undergoing testing for about 1.5-2 years now.


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## Reddawn

Thanks Blain2. It would be interesting to find out why HIT chose the IMI Wildcat design over others.....

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## blain2

Yes it would be although I am not privy to the design origin.


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## farhan_9909

nuclearpak said:


> PA was looking at Casspir MRAP and also a Chinese one.
> 
> The HIT made BUrraq is also in development.



Burraq is ready,it depends whether army orders burraq or not

Casspir imported in very less quantity(from gulf state or SA?) and is already being stripped down in HIT for a possible rip off

Chinese MRAP already ordered in unknown quantity as a stop gap measure


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## Jango

farhan_9909 said:


> Burraq is ready,it depends whether army orders burraq or not



I read somewhere that HIT has recently declared the Burraq almost combat ready with a few more trials left.


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## farhan_9909

nuclearpak said:


> I read somewhere that HIT has recently declared the Burraq almost combat ready with a few more trials left.



probably we read the same than

but burraq isnt ideal against the IED's our armed forces face.
we need something like the casspir to be manufactured in pakistan for mass number manufacturing


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## XYON

Reddawn said:


> Thanks Blain2. It would be interesting to find out why HIT chose the IMI Wildcat design over others.....



Because we do not have formal relations with Israel and hence they cannot complaint or hold us responsible for any design infringement rights!!!

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## blain2

farhan_9909 said:


> probably we read the same than
> 
> but burraq isnt ideal against the IED's our armed forces face.
> we need something like the casspir to be manufactured in pakistan for mass number manufacturing



Start off with the local design. I think even in its current form, the local MRAP is a better option that the Trucks being used now.

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## farhan_9909

blain2 said:


> Start off with the local design. I think even in its current form, the local MRAP is a better option that the Trucks being used now.



Even in the present form the burraq is much better than those toyota hilux.they dont even have b5 level protection


The HIT officially claim b7 level protection for Burraq as well as can withstand upto 10kg of tnt blast


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## notorious_eagle

nuclearpak said:


> I read somewhere that HIT has recently declared the Burraq almost combat ready with a few more trials left.



The platform is ready, it is rumoured to have conducted strikes in FATA too. The only problem that was arising was the precision of the munition, this was almost a year ago, don't know the current status of it.


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## Jango

notorious_eagle said:


> The platform is ready, it is rumoured to have conducted strikes in FATA too. The only problem that was arising was the precision of the munition, this was almost a year ago, don't know the current status of it.





> A spokesperson for Pakistan&#8217;s state-owned vehicle manufacturer, Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), has confirmed that its Burraq mine-resistant, ambush-protected (MRAP) vehicle is *nearing the end of its prototype phase and will be unveiled in &#8220;three to four months.&#8221;* The announcement comes after years of development and failed efforts to acquire such a vehicle from other sources.
> 
> Pakistan To Unveil MRAP Vehicle | Defense News | defensenews.com



This article is of March 19. The writer is Usman ANsari (isn't he the PAKDEF guy?)


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## Gentelman

farhan_9909 said:


> Even in the present form the burraq is much better than those toyota hilux.they dont even have b5 level protection
> 
> 
> The HIT officially claim b7 level protection for Burraq as well as can withstand upto 10kg of tnt blast



It looks great but it would be very beautiful vehicle if they redesign its tires
the tires really looks funny

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## rohailmalhi

I think the most important thing our soldiers need is Electronic equipment support.

Give them small UAV , remote controlled Vehicles e.t.c save the live .

May a times i have heard that xyz post is attacked and few of our soldier got killed in the action.Y aren't they given small UAVs equipped with irfrared sensors to see the movement in night.Atleast they can be ready before hand and they element of surprise will no more be the cause of soldier's death.


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## notorious_eagle

nuclearpak said:


> This article is of March 19. The writer is Usman ANsari (isn't he the PAKDEF guy?)



Apologies

I should have been more clear. I was talking about the UCAV, not the MRAP.

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## Zarvan

Abingdonboy said:


> These are the SFs. The issue is with the general infantry.


I am going to steal their weapons and run away but on topic we need hell of money to give this kind of equipment to our Army Soldiers we need lot of money and technology to do this


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## sms

Everyone here talking about better gun, ammo, situation awareness,protection and logistics. Those are very important part of the future soldier programs. Is there any progress about battle field medi-kits? Something that gives assurance to soldiers that even if they got hit will survive to see another day.


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## Bhai Zakir

XYON said:


> Oh Bhai ...........WHAT future soldier are we talking about here!!
> 
> Your average Infantry Man is currently a low paid grunt belonging to some Kot or Chak No.42 in Punjab or a Pathan from some remote rock part of KPK!!! Army gives him employment & benefits to shoot in the direction ordered & he does that without question before retiring and then getting in line as an old man for his pension or being hired by some security company as a guard on Rs.6000-Rs.7000 per month!!! During his service he looks like a starved Ethopian holding a G-3 that is as tall as he is!!! He is fed Daal and ordinary roti on permanent basis while pullao is an occasional Eid for the entire company!! He works like a dog during peace time generally doing orderly duties for the Col Sb or Major Sb from polishing shoes to fetching rotis from the local tandoor!!!
> 
> Whatever remains goes into the SSG and pose for the cameras to get photos above!!!!
> 
> So I ask again, WHAT FUTURE SOLDIER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?



Thanks for the info.

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## Reddawn

XYON said:


> Because we do not have formal relations with Israel and hence they cannot complaint or hold us responsible for any design infringement rights!!!



I can understand it to avoid R&D costs but we can forget about ever wanting to export the Burraq.


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## blain2

notorious_eagle said:


> The platform is ready, it is rumoured to have conducted strikes in FATA too. The only problem that was arising was the precision of the munition, this was almost a year ago, don't know the current status of it.



NE, its supposed to have an optional 12.7mm MG as its only weapon which is widely used in many other platforms in use by us in service.


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## SpArK

Market Research Reports, The Pakistani Defense Industry - Competitive Landscape and Strategic Insights to 2017: Market Profile

Could be an interesting read.


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## notorious_eagle

blain2 said:


> NE, its supposed to have an optional 12.7mm MG as its only weapon which is widely used in many other platforms in use by us in service.



Sir

As i clarified later, i was referring to our UCAV program. It is really confusing why PA decided to name this MRAP 'Burraq', when in fact PAF called it dibs by naming its UCAV project 'Burraq' first.

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## Jango

notorious_eagle said:


> Sir
> 
> As i clarified later, i was referring to our UCAV program. It is really confusing why PA decided to name this MRAP 'Burraq', when in fact PAF called it dibs by naming its UCAV project 'Burraq' first.



Got confused earlier on myself!

The the aerial platform's name is always accompanied with UCAV in writing, in use, both are with separate forces...it is kind of confusing though.


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## kbd-raaf

SpArK said:


> Market Research Reports, The Pakistani Defense Industry - Competitive Landscape and Strategic Insights to 2017: Market Profile
> 
> Could be an interesting read.



Mate, no individual is going to pay $500 for a report. If somebody does buy it, they will not be able to share it over here.

I have a subscription to Janes etc on base but once again, will not be able to share any articles/reports.


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## Ombiaz

farhan_9909 said:


> Even in the present form the burraq is much better than those toyota hilux.they dont even have b5 level protection
> 
> 
> The HIT officially claim b7 level protection for Burraq as well as can withstand upto 10kg of tnt blast



Reminds me of Pikachu from Pokemon.

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## Reddawn

farhan_9909 said:


> Burraq is ready,it depends whether army orders burraq or not
> 
> Casspir imported in very less quantity(from gulf state or SA?) and is already being stripped down in HIT for a possible rip off
> 
> Chinese MRAP already ordered in unknown quantity as a stop gap measure



The CS/VP3 is the Casspir MRAP. PolyTechnic of China signed a deal with MLS to share design and production know how. The Casspir's that were acquired were for trial purposes in FATA and are not a part of the PAs orbat. The PA acquired a number of Puma MRAP and Fenneks (not confirmed re the Fenneks) for trial purposes as well.


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## Super Falcon

yaaar i want every general soldier is equiped with best weapons and safety systems and specially helmets and guns they should have chance to save their life with having best equipment available in the market


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## sturmgewehr99

Pretty much anything below 7.62 Nato is crappy and I am not alone....many an infantry officer agrees with me [in the real world]...this forum has been trying to push the redundant 5.56 Nato for about 3-4 years now......with the Nato pull out and possibility of buying up stressed out M16 variants cheaply is probably looking to be a lucrative hoarding option for the few bigwig arms dealers Farhan sahib being one of them, who are in with govt. import contracts......wanna kill body armor get the 7.62 wanna kill Talibs get the 7.62 don't believe the crappy theory of wounded guys cost more from NAM then pick 7.62.

Get the MRAP's though they are awesome.


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## sturmgewehr99

everyone disappeared. Where did they go Batman.


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## amanwas

From the taxes of the people


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## jhonjames

Future Soldier mentally, physically, and emotionally for the rigors of Initial Entry Training


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## zubi421

BordoEnes said:


> G-3 will probably remain in service, Its a very good rifle, Cost effective and above all has the right calibre round. What i see is pakistani army equiping these with more attachements and scopes, Increasing the weapons effectivnes.
> 
> --------------------------------


the G-3 is an outdated design with an overpowered cartridge. Granted it was a good rifle for its time. 

I think the best option for the Pakistan Army standard service rifle is the Ak-74m. Modern armies have shifted towards high velocity, low impulse and recoil, and lightweight military service cartridges.

The latest 5.45 variants have decent penetration capabilities, increased range(625m), high accuracy, and light weight (which allows more ammunition to be carried). Its low bolt thrust and recoil allows for better automatic fire accuracy. It is comparable to the 5.56 ammunition of NATO. In fact it was engineered as a response to it. 

the Ak74m assault rifle is in almost identical in maintenance and training to the type 56 AKM variant currently used. It can be fitted with a host of modern russian optics, or even western optics with a weaver rail attatchment. It can be attatched with a gp25/30 underbarrel grenade launcher.

the Ak74m is currently the service rifle of the Russian army, arguably one of the most or possibly the most powerful land armies in the world. All ak-100 variants are based off the ak-74m with the only difference being cartridge caliber and/or barrel length. the Ak-105 is the carbine version of the ak74m in 5.45 caliber and is being introduced alongside for rear echelon, paratrooper, and for some special operations units in the Russian army.

Compared to the 5.56 nato, it's better. It's cheaper, more reliable, has a lighter weight, and better for automatic fire because of less recoil. "Tests indicate the free recoil energy delivered by the 5.45×39 mm AK-74 assault rifle is 3.39 J (2.50 ft·lb), compared to 6.44 J (4.75 ft·lb) delivered by the 5.56×45mm NATO in the M16 assault rifle and 7.19 J (5.30 ft·lb) delivered by the 7.62×39mm in the AKM assault rifle." type 56 is the chinese copy of the AKM.

After all, it was built to improve on the 5.56. However the cartridges are very similar. Most 5.56 assault rifles are expensive, difficult to maintain and train with, and unreliable and not durable, especially the m16/m4 series of rifles.

The 7.62x51 nato (current cartridge of the G-3) is unnecessarily overpowered and uncontrollable in rapid fire. Its also heavier which means less ammunition to be carried. This cartridge should only be used in a designated marksman or sniper role, like the similar 7.62x54R in the SVD dragunov.
The 7.62x39 of the type56/AKM/Ak103 is not very accurate, heavy in weight, heavy in recoil, not very controllable in automatic fire, and its range is relatively short. The only advantage is somewhat increased penetration of hard targets. However with modern variants of 5.45 and 5.56 such as the 7n10, 7n22 5.45 and m855, m855a1 5.56, the distinction is nearly gone. They are almost equal in penetrating hard targets and cover.

Besides most body armor plates can block 7.62 caliber rounds. to penetrate heavy armor you would need multiple hits(easier with accurate automatic fire) or a higher caliber (338 lapua magnum sniper or 12.7mm sniper or heavy machine gun). An increase in the amount of designated marksmen (7.62 possibly SVD, PSG1 or modified G-3) as well as snipers (.338 and 12.7mm) per unit is preferred to extend squad and platoon range and penetration against important targets.

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## Kompromat

@zubi421 

Welcome aboard, please introduce yourself in Member's introduction section.


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## Gentelman

Ombiaz said:


> Reminds me of Pikachu from Pokemon.



how you dare to insult my favourite pokemon character??
btw pikachu is far more cute than this MRAP


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## Ombiaz

Gentelman said:


> how you dare to insult my favourite pokemon character??
> btw pikachu is far more cute than this MRAP&#8230;



It's a compliment! This MRAP is going to Awwwww.... our enemies to death!


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## fahad196

wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i like it nice pics 

i wants of my army is very very strong and indias kill


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## TheNoob

lmfao that MRAP is totally hilarious.
please..
That'd humiliate us.


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## Viking 63

Ara mera Bhai !!! these are Universal solider from some sci-fic movies !!! Man are u guys joking !!! I can only see Pakistani Future Soldier as one person only !! Starring ==== Shiekh rasheed as " Commader Bond , Thats Black Bond 001" Buddy num num my friends !!! I got a feeling !


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## Super Falcon

Please change outdated G 3 and MP 5 first plz


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## Syed Hussain

XYON said:


> Oh Bhai ...........WHAT future soldier are we talking about here!!
> 
> Your average Infantry Man is currently a low paid grunt belonging to some Kot or Chak No.42 in Punjab or a Pathan from some remote rock part of KPK!!! Army gives him employment & benefits to shoot in the direction ordered & he does that without question before retiring and then getting in line as an old man for his pension or being hired by some security company as a guard on Rs.6000-Rs.7000 per month!!! During his service he looks like a starved Ethopian holding a G-3 that is as tall as he is!!! He is fed Daal and ordinary roti on permanent basis while pullao is an occasional Eid for the entire company!! He works like a dog during peace time generally doing orderly duties for the Col Sb or Major Sb from polishing shoes to fetching rotis from the local tandoor!!!
> 
> Whatever remains goes into the SSG and pose for the cameras to get photos above!!!!
> 
> So I ask again, WHAT FUTURE SOLDIER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?


Interesting analysis,  but give some time to an analysis on the "commissioned officers class" as well who are enjoying a 180 degree different condition.

We can at least Change the G3 for this future soldier???? can't We??? anybody???


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## xyxmt

TaimiKhan said:


> *2 got the bans, anymore willing for a ban ?? Do troll then. *



who made you moderator


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## nomi007

*PAK ARMY SSG IN 2050*

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## Rahil khan

nomi007 said:


> *PAK ARMY SSG IN 2050*
> View attachment 178466


Feels like Aliens of War of the Worlds to me.....!!


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## dr_jawwad71

This sounds absolutely funny to me ... because Pakistan army is not willing to even provide the better assault rifle.

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## Sulman Badshah

considering new armour for future soldier program

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## Wolfhound

any new info?


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## Muqeet Sabir

Pakistan Army simply the best


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## SSGcommandoPAK

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Future Soldier
> 
> Soldier Modernisation | ACR Lethality Focus (CZECHOSLOVAKIA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While near term capability enhancements are the current priority, *thinking has moved over to what Pakistan's soldier modernisation programme might look like with planning for Pakistan's SMP being in its initial phases.*
> 
> Improvement to lethality figures strongly in Pakistan's thinking which will see the replacement of the 7.62mm H&K G3 with *light caliber assault rifle with various attachments and add-on features such as under barrel grenade launcher, holographic sights and multi-function laser pointer/target designator*. To this will be added Non Lethal Weapons to better cater for the requirement of Operations Other Than War, Gen. Hussain stated that NLWs are currently being evaluated from the international market. Modern portable Anti tank weapon systems are being assessed.
> 
> Unusually on the requirements side, *Pakistan is seeking a new flamethrower.* Pakistan's current equipment is seen as being of an &#8220;old vintage&#8221; and the military is currently &#8220;evaluating latest standards of Flame Throwers with enhanced capacity of fuel and range.&#8221; Battle field Identification Friend or Foe for vehicles and dismounted infantry soldier systems available on the international market are now being examined.
> 
> In communications terms a *&#8220;Personal Net Digital Radio&#8221; is required with integrated GPS and with the, &#8220;capability to be linked with a PDA (Personal Data Assistant) at second in command level*.&#8221; A low level Multi-band inter/intra team radio with ground to air transmission facility is also required.
> 
> *This will be supplemented by an Individual Soldier's Computer Communication. Which is described as being smart enough to display information and provide position/navigation data. Soldiers will be able to view information through a hand held colour display or through an integrated head gear subsystem display.*
> 
> Pakistan has a requirement for an *Infantry Battle Field Command and Information System*. This will integrate infantry soldiers' communication with other arms especially with air assets and permit unit command posts to exchange data from *battalion level down to infantry platoon and section levels as well as to higher Headquarters.*
> 
> In term of personal protective equipment, a Light weight helmet compatible with NBC masks and *night vision is being pursued with integrated headgear for a ballistic protective helmet shell*, light weight garments, lightweight anti-mine combat shoes and body armour with integrated elbow and knee protection being some of them.
> 
> Gen. Hussain stated that Pakistan is currently evaluating modern lightly armoured and air transportable vehicles from the international market which can perform the role of &#8220;Mother Ship&#8221; for Infantry sections or teams by enhancing the Infantry man's mobility under armour protection.
> 
> In terms of Night Vision Gen. Hussain stated, &#8220;Our area of focus is on Image intensification sights and thermal sights for Small Arms and Light Anti Tank weapons, Hand held image intensification scopes and Night Vision Goggles for commanders and operators of crew served weapons/drivers and Light weight observation kit for mortar fire controllers.&#8221;
> 
> He continued that there is a *&#8220;dire need&#8221; *for Night Vision Devices which is being felt during cordon and search operations suggesting this is the near term priority.
> 
> In terms of night vision requirements Pakistan sees these as; light in weight, water proof, small in size, user friendly and having functional controls like polarity, brightness, gain, recital movement and focusing. The systems should also have auxiliary Infra Red illumination facility for map reading and multi-functions like night driving, patrols, combat action and security duties should be able to fix an array of weapon systems manufactured by the Pakistan Ordnance Factory. n



This program will be implemented by 2030 by that time Modern armies will use robots to fight there wars , they would deploy Robots and remote control cars with a cannon or mini gun on them


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## Quwa

The "future soldier" idea isn't going to be some fixed goalpost, things will keep changing every couple of years. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the body armour we see presented by Lyra and other firms at IDEAS copy the Scalable Plate Carrier (SPC), which has become quite popular these days.

The key for a "future soldier" in Pakistan will be education. Imagine a two year training program for the youngest recruits as a means to impart both basic training but also some education, especially in terms of critical thinking, using advanced gear, etc. A trained and educated soldier is the basic building block of a soldier who will adeptly operate in a network-driven environment full of advanced gear.

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## pzfz

Quwa said:


> For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the body armour we see presented by Lyra and other firms at IDEAS copy the Scalable Plate Carrier (SPC), which has become quite popular these days.



I don't have any hope of domestic companies/army innovating or presenting it as a future solution. The only thing they've done is use the old 80s/90s era style vests and added PALS webbing to it. Even the SF mostly use old plate insert vests with a tacvest/bandoleer adding weight and complexity to what should be a simple and purposeful setup.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Just throwing in the idea out there


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## Signalian

Urgent Problems are *Communications* and *Transport* :

1.Need more wireless communications systems at Section level and below, best if possible for every soldier. In majority cases ,Wireless sets are distributed at platoon level which binds 30 soldiers together for orders and reduces tactical efficiency of operating in smaller teams of 4-5 men. 

2. A 4- 5 Seater General purpose bullet proof/ IED proof transport vehicle instead of Toyota Hilux or Mitsubishi L-200 or Defender 90/110 series of vehicles. PA makes 8-10 soldiers sit in one vehicle instead of 4-5 like HUMVEE and when ambush hits disable the vehicle, these 8-10 soldiers become vulnerable straightaway. 

Secondly, this vehicle should have atleast 250 HP engine so if armor is added onto it or weapon is mounted, its speed is not affected. Currently, none of PA used above mentioned vehicles has 150+ Hp engine . 
The Toyota Land Cruiser 3-door and 5 door are exceptions. 5-Door is rare though and seen in VIP convoys. The 3-door or RKR has petrol engine with 155 hp and newer 200+ hp and the diesel RMR has older 107 hp engine and newer 200+ hp engine. 

Thirdly, PA Army trucks should only be used to carry cargo like weapons/ammo/logistical equipment etc not personnel as they are slow and bigger targets unless its made it *GUN TRUCK* with crew served weapons.

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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Just throwing in the idea out there


It would be something similar soon


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## muhammadali233

Just Heard Ratnik Kit is coming for testing,hope for the best.
Ak-103 deal might be closely related.
Ratnik is tho designed for Ak-12.


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## Zarvan

muhammadali233 said:


> Just Heard Ratnik Kit is coming for testing,hope for the best.
> Ak-103 deal might be closely related.
> Ratnik is tho designed for Ak-12.


Gun is not part of this gear. The things placed on Gun are like optics and other things by the way who told you about kit coming for testing ? I mean source ??


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## muhammadali233

Zarvan said:


> Gun is not part of this gear. The things placed on Gun are like optics and other things by the way who told you about kit coming for testing ? I mean source ??


Ratnik is a system,gun being a part of this.
I heard of pak being interested a year ago now however with the recent visit of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Rashad Mahmood things are for sure stirring up.
Can't say further.
System is quite expensive chances are dim.


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## Army research

muhammadali233 said:


> Ratnik is a system,gun being a part of this.
> I heard of pak being interested a year ago now however with the recent visit of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Rashad Mahmood things are for sure stirring up.
> Can't say further.
> System is quite expensive chances are dim.


In quwa report it said rantik in system of 16 or something different items which can be bought seperatly

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## Zarvan

muhammadali233 said:


> Ratnik is a system,gun being a part of this.
> I heard of pak being interested a year ago now however with the recent visit of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Rashad Mahmood things are for sure stirring up.
> Can't say further.
> System is quite expensive chances are dim.


Italian system is also good and after years of testing they have simplified it and now in production. With few changes we should test it. One change I suggest is better bullet proof jacket in Italian system current one only provides protection against 9mm and stabbing


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## Aqsa Mateen

fEELING SO PROUD


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## Zarvan

Pakistan should test RATNIK system and if it passes tests should adopt and by the way the camouflage is best for our Marines.


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## My-Analogous

TaimiKhan said:


> *2 got the bans, anymore willing for a ban ?? Do troll then. *


 Master stroke. Keep the good work going


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## Signalian

@Ulla 

(Fiction)Drone with gun remotely controlled. Views on its viability and usage for a night attack on LOC by PA?
This is a screen shot below. After that is the video.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> @Ulla
> 
> (Fiction)Drone with gun remotely controlled. Views on its viability and usage for a night attack on LOC by PA?
> This is a screen shot below. After that is the video.
> 
> View attachment 381360




Could we buy/produce really such a high number of war drones into the battlefield to make a significant impact? Secondly, we need a study or research of cost and effective compared to the training/cost/kill efficiency of a human Soldier. I would like to read some innovative Ideas for AIR DEFENCE SHIELDS ON SEA AND AIR against the Quality and Quantity!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Still need to see a proper Technogly / Visor + Electrical Com system

Good old visor View

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## pzfz

Don't know if these guys actually manufacture their stuff or import but the first time someone in Pakistan actually has a Plate Carrier not the crap from LYRA or POF: 

1938.COM.PK 

Alibaba 1938.com.pk

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## Incog_nito

Why not for new soldiers. The clothing should be made out of something like Kevlar with Nano tech that can help in overcoming any issue with dirt and even holes to get repaired on it's own.


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## BERKEKHAN2

Why am I not able to see pictures ?? Please can any one help


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## Reichsmarschall

Zarvan said:


> It would be something similar *soon*


15 months have passed when will they arrive?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

pzfz said:


> Don't know if these guys actually manufacture their stuff or import but the first time someone in Pakistan actually has a Plate Carrier not the crap from LYRA or POF:
> 
> 1938.COM.PK
> 
> Alibaba 1938.com.pk

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## niaz

To fight a modern war size alone is not enough. Pakistan Army is rather large as it is. We need to increase ‘lethality’ of an average private in combat. In other words we need to make Pak army jawan, lean & mean. This requires improvement in three areas:

First is the physical aspect, which means that the soldier should be physical strong and fit thus able to withstand long marches in extreme weather conditions fully loaded with his kit.

Secondly, weapons available to the ordinary soldier must be deadly and reliable. Such weapons may not necessarily be state of the art, but each soldier should be trained to the extent that he is able to use his weapons with his eyes shut.

Last and IMO the most important quality is courage & mental capability. We need Pakistani ‘private’ to be moderately well educated; be able to respond quickly to changing environment and have the initiative to take necessary action in critical situations without having to wait for the orders. Ideally I would like all the army jawans to have training & fighting ability of the Royal Marines or close to it.

While Pak army planners appear to be doing all they can to improve the first two aspects, are they doing enough to improve mental capability?

In a fast changing world, technology is of paramount important. Most Pak army Jawans come from uneducated rural background and would probably find it difficult to keep pace with technical advancements in the art of war. IMHO couple of hours, 2 or 3 times a week in a class room to improve their education & technical skills will go a long way towards improving their combat effectiveness.

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## Bossman

niaz said:


> To fight a modern war size alone is not enough. Pakistan Army is rather large as it is. We need to increase ‘lethality’ of an average private in combat. In other words we need to make Pak army jawan, lean & mean. This requires improvement in three areas:
> 
> First is the physical aspect, which means that the soldier should be physical strong and fit thus able to withstand long marches in extreme weather conditions fully loaded with his kit.
> 
> Secondly, weapons available to the ordinary soldier must be deadly and reliable. Such weapons may not necessarily be state of the art, but each soldier should be trained to the extent that he is able to use his weapons with his eyes shut.
> 
> Last and IMO the most important quality is courage & mental capability. We need Pakistani ‘private’ to be moderately well educated; be able to respond quickly to changing environment and have the initiative to take necessary action in critical situations without having to wait for the orders. Ideally I would like all the army jawans to have training & fighting ability of the Royal Marines or close to it.
> 
> While Pak army planners appear to be doing all they can to improve the first two aspects, are they doing enough to improve mental capability?
> 
> In a fast changing world, technology is of paramount important. Most Pak army Jawans come from uneducated rural background and would probably find it difficult to keep pace with technical advancements in the art of war. IMHO couple of hours, 2 or 3 times a week in a class room to improve their education & technical skills will go a long way towards improving their combat effectiveness.



What is your experience in military matters which makes you such an expert? The so called modern technologically superior militaries have lost wars to under equipped, uneducated militias in Vietnam, Afghanistan and even Iraq including the venerated Royal Marines.


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## niaz

Bossman said:


> What is your experience in military matters which makes you such an expert? The so called modern technologically superior militaries have lost wars to under equipped, uneducated militias in Vietnam, Afghanistan and even Iraq including the venerated Royal Marines.




Hon Sir,

Your objections are valid and require an answer. 

Pakistan has no plans to invade a faraway country like Afghanistan, Iraq or Vietnam where, in addition to the opposing military; the soldier has to face a hostile population as well. Pakistan’s perceived enemy is our erstwhile neighbour India. Any Indo –Pak war would not be a guerrilla war but a conventional war with thousands of troops facing each other. Therefore examples quoted by you are not applicable in the Indo Pak conflict scenario.

Indian military enjoys vast superiority in numbers as well as in available financial resources. Hence Indian military hardware is more modern and of the quality equal to if not better than what Pakistan has. Unless you would like to press the nuclear button from the word go; how do you propose we can even the odds if not through the quality of the ordinary soldier. Many acknowledge Royal Marines as one of the foremost Light Infantry in world. Hence I gave their example. However you are welcome to consider them rubbish if it pleases you.






You can’t have forgotten the OBL affair, where US employed stealth technology to blind Pakistani Radar and / or that F-117 destroyed Iraq communication network without any losses in the first Gulf war?

How can a fighter without BVR successfully challenge a hostile jet which can destroy 6 targets simultaneously beyond the visual range and / or a stealth fighter that you cannot see? Regrettably, modern wars are technology based and even to operate & maintain modern convention weapons, a minimum level of educational & technical skills are required. Majority of the Pakistani army recruits originate from the Potahar, KPK and central Punjab region and possess only rudimentary education. You don’t think that it would be beneficial to improve their level of education?

This is a defence forum but not many of the members are military professionals. Admittedly, I do not have a military background either. However, being retired for a few years I read a lot to pass the time and this includes articles of military, air force and the navy. I joined this forum because of my interest in the defence matters and therefore reserve the right to post my opinion.

If you are a military professional, I would respect any criticism that you have with open arms. Even if you are not, you are free to disagree with my views. However, there is no need to be rude and disagreeable as well.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bossman said:


> What is your experience in military matters which makes you such an expert? The so called modern technologically superior militaries have lost wars to under equipped, uneducated militias in Vietnam, Afghanistan and even Iraq including the venerated Royal Marines.



@niaz has a point the major fighting component of any army is made of nco's and jco's they need to be on top of their game to achieve mission success. The qualified the will be the more efficiently they can be used by their officer.

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## RescueRanger

Bakshi tufail said:


> Why am I not able to see pictures ?? Please can any one help


Clear cache and cookies!


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Since 2012, small tiny steps we have taken

a)Assault Rifle evaluations are under way Polish , Russian , Turkish all have gone thru evaluation
b) Possible small arms enhancements
c) Some rifle improvements
d) We got our own APC , Hamza APC

Still behind a bit on technology integration on ground units











Always good to have a bird eye view of situation

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## RescueRanger

pzfz said:


> Don't know if these guys actually manufacture their stuff or import but the first time someone in Pakistan actually has a Plate Carrier not the crap from LYRA or POF:
> 
> 1938.COM.PK
> 
> Alibaba 1938.com.pk



Whats wrong with the ballistic armor from Lyra?

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## Ahsen Tariq

SEAL said:


> Basic 7k-8k....


22K is basic and normally they got 38K with allowances, Utility bills and other things like schools fesses are Cheaper then normal citizens. much other things if you want to know



AUSTERLITZ said:


> What would you replace the g3 with?


i think G-36 is better


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## Army research

Ahsen Tariq said:


> 22K is basic and normally they got 38K with allowances, Utility bills and other things like schools fesses are Cheaper then normal citizens. much other things if you want to know
> 
> 
> i think G-36 is better


G36 has so many issues and the you wish to replace a 7.62 with a 5.56 ? Looks and video game stats don't determine guns in real life

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## pzfz

not future soldier stuff but personal protection equipment. facebook of pakdefense but not posted on this site. much better bpv/plate carrier designs:
looks like a full bpj setup. same from different angle. more.




a more plate carrierish vest - THAT'S NOT BLACK.




a better bpj setup than the first one but don't know if it can handle hard armor plates.




an another different design, seems for heavy stuff.

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## pzfz

more from ideas 2018.

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## Armchair

ACOGs could significantly enhance combat effectiveness. Would cost PA $10 to $20 per unit. If you bought 100,000 to arm PA, it would cost about 1 million USD. 





The US marines puts one of these on every single assault rifle. 

This is how effective they are: 





Apparently US soldiers who can use these effectively completely blew away the enemy in combat. 

Its little things like these that I will never understand why the professionals in PA never think about. 

@Signalian

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## python-000




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## Black Tornado

python-000 said:


>


Yaar its CGI


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## Mr.JoJI

This thread is quite useless, border forces aren't even able to deflect Ttp goons, can't see them being more lethal in more attachments and equipment. What we need are modernized training, localisation of equipment/attachment production and advances combat simulations. All of these cost shit ton of money, time and experience of its own. Training process needs to integrate psychological, physical process/techniques

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## Bahaadur Shaah

Is the future soldier program going to address issues of combined arms, joint operations and mechanization of infantry as well multi training for different environments?


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## Thorough Pro

Pakistan's Future soldier program bore results and produced "Bajwa" an enemy within


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## Goritoes

In 2100 Pakistan Army acquire their First batch of 100 robots, later found out those Robots were building new homes for Generals in the Democratic Republic of Housing Society.

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## Signalian

Boston Dynamics has done a commendable work on robots for military transport.


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