# The Pothohar Plateau



## GreenFalcon

The *Potohar Plateau* (Urdu: *سطح مُرتفع پوٹھوہار*‎), (also spelled *Pothwar/Panjistan region*, *Potowar* or*Pothohar/northern panjab*) is a plateau in north-eastern Pakistan, forming the northern part of Punjab. It borders the western parts of Azad Kashmir and the southern parts of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. The area was the home of the SoanianCulture, which is evidenced by the discovery of fossils, tools, coins, and remains of ancient archaeological sites.

The Potohari or modern Panjistani language is a major language, while Hindko, Punjabi is also spoken by much of the population. Dhani diaelect, Shahpuri and Chacchi are major dialects in Potohar region. The dialects of Potohar are generally classified as belonging to the Hindko language (Chacchi or Southern Hindko) or Potohari-Pahari dialects.

Potohar is known for its warrior clans including Awans, Janjuas, Abbasis, Kayani clans, Minhas and many others. These same clans constitute the name Gakhars in the past who were famous for defending the region of Potohar. Potohar was known as Paurava in the past and the king of this region was King Porus and he is known for the famous battle withAlexander between the regions of Jhelum river and Indus river.

*Geography*
Potohar Plateau is bounded on the east by the Jhelum River, on the west by the Indus River, on the north by the Kala Chitta Range and the Margalla Hills, and on the south by the Salt Range.[1] The Kāla Chitta Range thrusts eastward across the plateau toward Rawalpindi; the valleys of the Haro and Soan rivers cross the plateau from the eastern foothills to the Indus. The ramparts of the Salt Range stretching from east to west in the south separate Potohar from the Punjab Plain. The Pothohar Plateau includes the current four districts of Jhelum, Chakwal, Rawalpindi, Attock.[2] The terrain is undulating. The Kala Chitta Range rises to an average height of 450-900 metres (3,000 ft) and extends for about 72 kilometres (45 mi). The Swaan River starts from nearby Murree and ends near Kalabagh in the Indus river. Sakesar is the highest mountain of this region.

Most of the hills and rivers are bordered by dissected ravine belts. The streams, due to constant rejuvenation, are deep set and of little use for irrigation. Agriculture is dependent largely on rainfall, which averages 15 to 20 in. (380 to 510 mm) annually; rainfall is greatest in the northwest and declines to arid conditions in the southwest. The chief crops are wheat, barley, sorghum, and legumes; onions, melons, and tobacco are grown in the more fertile areas near the Indus.

The diverse wildlife includes urial, chinkara, chukar, hare, mongoose, wild boar, and Yellow-throated Marten. Due to low rain fall, extensive deforestation, coal mining, oiland gas exploration, the area is becoming devoid of vegetation. The under water areas of lakes (Uchali, Khabeki, Jhallar and Kallar Kahar) have been reduced to much smaller areas than in the past.

The plateau is the location of major Pakistani oil fields, the first of which were discovered at Khaur (1915) and Dhuliān (1935); the Tut field was discovered in 1968, and exploration continued in the area in the 1970s. The oil fields are connected by pipeline to the Attock Refinery in Rawalpindi.[3]

The major cities of Islamabad and Rawalpindi, and the smaller cities of Chakwal, Jhelum and Attock are situated on the plateau.

*History*




Pothohar Plateau scene




Ling Stream




Tilla Jogian, 2nd highest peak in Pothohar.




Rohtas Fort gate




Centuries old banyan tree insidePharwala Fort, Potohar.




Mankiala Stupa
Existence of the Soanian culture finds its home on the plateau. The Indus Valley civilization is known to have flourished in the same region between the 23rd and 18th centuries BC. Some of the earliest Stone Age artifacts in the world have been found on the plateau, dating from 500,000 to 100,000 years. The crude stone recovered from the terraces of the Soan carry the account of human grind and endeavors in this part of the world from the inter-glacial period.

The Stone Age people produced their equipment in a sufficiently homogenous way to justify their grouping. Around 3000 BC, small village communities developed in the area, which led to the early roots of civilization.

Rawalpindi Gazetteer 1894 (see also Baburnama). This clan now live all over the region and famous villages are Samote, Sagri, Manyanda, Sakrana, Bishandoot, etc.

The ruins of the Shahi destroyed by Mahmud of Ghazni in 11th Century and of ancientGandhara destroyed in the 6th Century by the Hunas (Indo-Hephthalites) litter the countyside.

Taxila is an ancient UNESCO World Heritage Site located on the plateau. Taxila (then called taksh-shila) was Hindu and Buddhist seat of learning, connected across the Khunjerab pass to the Silk Road, attracting students from all over the world. Ancient Takshashila was renowned all over the world as home to a great university. It came under the control of the first Persian known then as the Achaemenid Empire followed by Alexander the Great and then the Sassanians (seeIndo-Sassanian). As a city in Gandhara it flourished during the first-fifth centuries AD. It was finally destroyed in c.450-c.565 by the Hunas.

The material remains found on the site of the city of Rawalpindi prove the existence of a Gandhara Buddhist establishment contemporary to Taxila but less celebrated than its neighbor. It appears that the ancient city also went into oblivion as a result of the same Hunas devastation. The Gakhar chief Jhanda Khan restored it and gave it the name of Rawalpindi after the village Rawal in 1493 AD. Today it is the twin city of the capital of Pakistan, Islamabad which was built next to it.

Rohtas Fort located in the Potwar is another UNESCO World Heritage site, built by Sher Shah Suri in 1541 to control the Gakhars who remained loyal to the deposed Mughal EmperorHumayun.[4][5]

Rawat Fort is located 17 kilometres (11 mi) east of Rawalpindi, on the Grand Trunk Road leading to Lahore. The grave of a Gakhar Chief, Sultan Sarang Khan is located inside the fort. He died in 1546 AD fighting against the forces of Sher Shah Suri. If one dares to climb the broken steps inside the tomb, one may get a panoramic view of the plateau and the Mankiala Stupa. The remains of this Buddhist Stupa lie about 32 km south east of Rawalpindi in Mankiala village. Apparently, this Gandhara stupa was built in the reign ofKanishka (128-151 AD). According to legend, Buddha had sacrificed parts of his body here, to feed seven hungry tiger-cubs. In 1930, several gold, silver and copper coins (660 - 730 AD) and a bronze casket having Kharoṣṭhī inscriptions, were discovered from this stupa.

Pharwala Fort is about 40 kilometres (25 mi) from Rawalpindi beyond Lehtrar road. The Gakhar ruler, Sultan Kai Gohar built it in 15th century on the ruins of a 10th-century Hindu Shahi Fort. Emperor Babur attacked the fort in 1519 AD before Hati Khan had acknowledged him.

The Salt Range is dotted with Hindu temples, of which the most notable is the Katasraj temple. Located 25 kilometres (16 mi) from Chakwal, Katasraj is notable in many ways. The temple was not abandoned by local Hindu's when they migrated to East Punjab in 1947. Many legends sacred to the Hindu's are associated with it, some of them involving Shiva himself. It has always been the site of holy pilgrimage. Even nowadays, through an agreement between India and Pakistan, Hindu worshippers perform a pilgrimage to the temple every year and bathe in the sacred pool around which Katasraj is built. Legend says that the five Pandava brothers, heroes of the Sanskrit epic Mahābhārata, stayed here for four out of the 14 years that they spent in exile. While Katas Raj has not received much publicity, the two semi-ruined temples of the Hindu Shahi period (650-950 AD) have been frequently photographed by newspapers and history journals.

A joint project with Professors Abdur Rehman, past Chairman of the Department of Archaeology, University of Peshawar, and Farid Khan, founder of the Pakistan Heritage Society, has begun to analyse and document these important monuments in the history of South Asian temple architecture with funding from the University of Pennsylvania. Two seasons of excavation have been carried out at the site of North Kafirkot.
@Aeronaut @Jungibaaz @dexter @Zarvan @Informant @Luftwaffe @waz @Abu Nasar @Akheilos @Aether @nForce @Reviewer21 @AUSTERLITZ @balixd @Abu Zolfiqar @niaz @hinduguy @Hazzy997 @Muhammad Omar

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## Falcon29

I like that Stupa, interesting thread.

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## waz

Great thread bro. 

I might do one about Azad Kashmir.

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## GreenFalcon

waz said:


> Great thread bro.
> 
> I might do one about Azad Kashmir.


Thank you and yeap, We should promote our Geography

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## Kataria

Are Potoharis just paharis? Or Punjabis? Or Dogris?


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## waz

Kataria said:


> Are Potoharis just paharis? Or Punjabis? Or Dogris?



Similar to each other. They are not Punjabis.

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## GreenFalcon

Kataria said:


> Are Potoharis just paharis? Or Punjabis? Or Dogris?


Paharis yes, Dogris and Punjabis no but the difference between Punjabis and Potoharis is almost close to none

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## bantusoldier

GreenFalcon said:


> Paharis yes, Dogris and Punjabis no but the difference between Punjabis and Potoharis is almost close to none



There are some dogris in Pakistan like the Jaswal brothers . In general they often have oriental mongoloid looking eyes like Uzair Jaswal which Potoharis don't have

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## dexter

Nice share brother
Keep up the good work

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## GreenFalcon

dexter said:


> Nice share brother
> Keep up the good work


Thank you Sir!

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## Shabaz Sharif

bantusoldier said:


> There are some dogris in Pakistan like the Jaswal brothers . In general they often have oriental mongoloid looking eyes like Uzair Jaswal which Potoharis don't have



You are confusing something, Potoharis have nothing to do with Dogri nasal. And Jaswal are either jats or rajputs and not dogris, where the **** do you see mongloid in them? dogris who are manly mongoid bhaiyas who migrated from Ganga land UP/Bihar to IoK.

Don't confuse Pakistani potoharis with Indian dogris, two different people.






lol mongloid



GreenFalcon said:


> Paharis yes, Dogris and Punjabis no but the difference between Punjabis and Potoharis is almost close to none



Azad Kashmiris are paharis or potoharis?

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## bantusoldier

bulbula said:


> You are confusing something, Potoharis have nothing to do with Dogri nasal. And Jaswal are either jats or rajputs and not dogris, where the **** do you see mongloid in them? dogris who are manly mongoid bhaiyas who migrated from Ganga land UP/Bihar to IoK.
> 
> Don't confuse Pakistani potoharis with Indian dogris, two different people.
> 
> 
> lol mongloid
> 
> 
> 
> Azad Kashmiris are paharis or potoharis?



On wikipedia it says that Jaswal are a Rajput Katoch clan from Himachal Pradesh Kangra region which I assumed to be a dogri region. His eyes look very odd with that kind of a slant

Wikipedia:
The Jaswal Rajputs are a branch of the Katoch clan of Kangra. Their ancestor Raja Purab Chand was a brother of the then Raja of Kangra who carved out an independent kingdom in the Swaan valley, which came to be known as Jaswan. His descendants were hence known as Jaswal Rajputs. The Jaswal gotra is also very predominant in the Jatt clan.


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## Shabaz Sharif

bantusoldier said:


> On wikipedia it says that Jaswal are a Rajput Katoch clan from Himachal Pradesh Kangra region which I assumed to be a dogri region. His eyes look very odd with that kind of a slant
> 
> Wikipedia:
> The Jaswal Rajputs are a branch of the Katoch clan of Kangra. Their ancestor Raja Purab Chand was a brother of the then Raja of Kangra who carved out an independent kingdom in the Swaan valley, which came to be known as Jaswan. His descendants were hence known as Jaswal Rajputs. *The Jaswal gotra is also very predominant in the Jatt clan*.



Uzair brothers are most likely rajputs, but there exist some jat clans as well with Jaswal as you can read what you posted. His eyes are not odd and don't look mongloid unlike dogri nasal.

Jaswal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These people have nothing to do with dogri nasal a part from sharing clan name.

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## ghoul

Dhani dialect of Chakwal. It starts from 1:45 onward, and ends at 4:30.






I don't remember the name of the linguistic study, but it was done by a British linguist, and he classified Dhani as a dialect of Hindko rather than standard Potohari-Pahari. With that said, people of Chakwal and south western Jhelum still identify themselves as Potohari, even though they speak a dhani dialect, which sounds different in my opinion. Standard Potohari type dialects are also spoken in some regions of Punjab.

If you're a native Punjabi speaker, can you easily understand it or does it sound too accented and "different"? What about Potohari speakers, can you understand this dialect easily?

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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> Dhani dialect of Chakwal. It starts from 1:45 onward, and ends at 4:30.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the name of the linguistic study, but it was done by a British linguist, and he classified Dhani as a dialect of Hindko rather than standard Potohari-Pahari. With that said, people of Chakwal and south western Jhelum still identify themselves as Potohari, even though they speak a dhani dialect, which sounds different in my opinion. Standard Potohari type dialects are also spoken in some regions of Punjab.
> 
> If you're a native Punjabi speaker, can you easily understand it or does it sound too accented and "different"? What about Potohari speakers, can you understand this dialect easily?



Sound different then potohari but still understandable. Also from what i have noticed people identify with places where they live instead of dialect/languages. Azad Kashmiris identify as kashmiris and hindko people as pathans (even if they are not) etc Same is the case here even if Dhani is closer to Hindko then potohari.


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## ghoul

save_ghenda said:


> Sound different then potohari but still understandable. Also from what i have noticed people identify with places where they live instead of dialect/languages. Azad Kashmiris identify as kashmiris and hindko people as pathans (even if they are not) etc Same is the case here even if Dhani is closer to Hindko then potohari.



It sounds pretty similar to Hindko. Some Hindko nationalists even include Chakwal in their potential province. I bet general people from central like regions will have trouble understanding his accent and vocabulary. Does it sound easier or difficult than Potohari?

And Azad Kashmiris are a confused lot. I always laugh when they describe themselves as "Kashmiri jatt:, "Kashmiri rajput" etc. I guess they took on this "Kashmiri" identity to disown any association with Punjab, as do the hindko people, who even deny that their language sounds quite similar to Punjabi and is a dialect rather than a language. Potohari/Pahari can be considered a different language though considering it has its own literature. Literature is the main criteria that sets languages apart. Hence Italian, Portuguese and Spanish are considered separate languages even though they are mutually understandable. Similarly Swedish and Norwegian languages are considered separate.

PS: Dhanni speakers might speak a hindko like dialect, but they are ethnically Potoharis. They are mostly malik awans and rajas, who are the quintessential Potohari tribes.


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## Sulman Badshah

Potohar is the one of the most educated area in Pakistan ... people have culture to be in armed forces ...

Most of the officers and soldiers in Pakistan armed forces are from Potohar .... 
in education Jehlum , Chakwal , rawalpindi and ISB come in top six district as literate

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## ghoul

Potohar might also be the most crime free region in Pakistan. The traditional dress of Potohar; shalwar kameez, white turban and a woolen waist coast:






The typical Potohari turban:





Tent pegging, known as "neza bazi" in local dialects, is the national sport of the region;

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## ghoul

Some historical places:

Rawat fort:





Tomb of Sultan Sarang Shaheed, the brave Gakkhar warrior chief who resisted Sher Shah Suri:





Paharwala fort:





Kusak fort:





Nandana temple:





Kitasraj temples and ruins, an ancient mohyal brahmin colony:

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## ghoul

Some hindu shahi temples:

Sassi da kallara; a mysterious temple:





Malot temple/fort:





Amb temples:





















Mysterious building in Tharchak, Chakwal:

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## Sugarcane

ghoul said:


> I bet general people from central like regions will have trouble understanding his accent and vocabulary.



I don't think native Punjabi will have problem to understand his accent and vocabulary,.


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## Sulman Badshah

ghoul said:


> The typical Potohari turban:


Prince Malik Atta looking Cool in this pic

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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> It sounds pretty similar to Hindko. Some Hindko nationalists even include Chakwal in their potential province. I bet general people from central like regions will have trouble understanding his accent and vocabulary. Does it sound easier or difficult than Potohari?
> 
> And Azad Kashmiris are a confused lot. I always laugh when they describe themselves as "Kashmiri jatt:, "Kashmiri rajput" etc. I guess they took on this "Kashmiri" identity to disown any association with Punjab, as do the hindko people, who even deny that their language sounds quite similar to Punjabi and is a dialect rather than a language. Potohari/Pahari can be considered a different language though considering it has its own literature. Literature is the main criteria that sets languages apart. Hence Italian, Portuguese and Spanish are considered separate languages even though they are mutually understandable. Similarly Swedish and Norwegian languages are considered separate.
> 
> PS: Dhanni speakers might speak a hindko like dialect, but they are ethnically Potoharis. They are mostly malik awans and rajas, who are the quintessential Potohari tribes.



I have noticed same thing, lots of Kashmiri jats, kashmiri rajput, kashmiri gujjar on facebook. If tomorrow Azad Kashmir name is changed they will identify with new identity. Can't blame them because "Punjabi" itself is new identity. These tribes mostly used to identity with their own biraderis. 

Any native punjabi will understand Dhani/hindko. But overall potohari is easy to understand for central punjabis compared to hindko. 

In Kharian we also malik awans village, they are spread out all over Punjab.

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## ghoul

@save_ghenda 
Well northern Kharian and Sarai Alamgir region is ethno-culturally potohari any way. The Janjua, Gakkhar, Awans, Jodhras, Abbasis etc are very "Potohari", even though you see people using their names in Punjab. I have seen Tarkhans of Lahore and Multan using "Janjua" surname. Sounds weird. The northern half of Khushab(Soon valley) is ethno-culturally Potohari too. I saw a facebook page of "sooba potohar tehreek" some time ago, and it was dominated by malik awans and abbasis.

What do you think of the Hindu Shahi architecture of Potohar? Paharwala fortress and most temples I shared are ex-Hindu Shahi.

Here's some more Dhanni:





And another thing to add; there was a south Asian famous breed of horse called "Dhanni breed". The breed is unfortunately extinct now. It was said to be Ranjit Singh's favourite breed. The mair Minhas of Maloki Dhan were the famous breeders of the mentioned breed. The Mair Manhas claim that they came from Jammu to Chakwal at the behest of some Delhi Sultan. They were a notorious subject for the Gakkhars, who were entrusted by the mughals to raise taxes. The Mairs are said to have repeatedly killed Gakkhar kardars, but escaped into hills and caves whenever a Gakkhar lashkar was sent against them.

The local tribes are no doubt quite martial.

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## ghoul

Sulman Badshah said:


> Prince Malik Atta looking Cool in this pic



Malik Saab's family has got quite a history. I will share some other time.

@Jaggu 
I think you might find this thread interesting. I shared a few videos of the "Dhanni dialect". What do you think of it?


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> @save_ghenda
> Well northern Kharian and Sarai Alamgir region is ethno-culturally potohari any way. The Janjua, Gakkhar, Awans, Jodhras, Abbasis etc are very "Potohari", even though you see people using their names in Punjab. I have seen Tarkhans of Lahore and Multan using "Janjua" surname. Sounds weird. The northern half of Khushab(Soon valley) is ethno-culturally Potohari too. I saw a facebook page of "sooba potohar tehreek" some time ago, and it was dominated by malik awans and abbasis.
> 
> What do you think of the Hindu Shahi architecture of Potohar? Paharwala fortress and most temples I shared are ex-Hindu Shahi.
> 
> Here's some more Dhanni:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And another thing to add; there was a south Asian famous breed of horse called "Dhanni breed". The breed is unfortunately extinct now. It was said to be Ranjit Singh's favourite breed. The mair Minhas of Maloki Dhan were the famous breeders of the mentioned breed. The Mair Manhas claim that they came from Jammu to Chakwal at the behest of some Delhi Sultan. They were a notorious subject for the Gakkhars, who were entrusted by the mughals to raise taxes. The Mairs are said to have repeatedly killed Gakkhar kardars, but escaped into hills and caves whenever a Gakkhar lashkar was sent against them.
> 
> The local tribes are no doubt quite martial.



Even Northen Kharian is standard punjabi. Only chibs speak potohari to the point that its known as ''rajea di boli'' to differentiate. Malik awans in kharian are proper awans even though they speak majhi punjabi. Awans are spread all over punjab, remember potohar is very small region of 4 districts in Punjab out of 32.

Abbasis are also spread all over including South Punjab, but they claim arab ancestry like awans.

Janjuas and Ghkkhars (no idea of jodhras) are indeed potoharis mostly, but few can be found in central punjab. My friend was Kayani who now i know are Ghakkars.



ghoul said:


> Malik Saab's family has got quite a history. I will share some other time.
> 
> @Jaggu
> I think you might find this thread interesting. I shared a few videos of the "Dhanni dialect". What do you think of it?



So Malik Atta is awan?

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## ghoul

save_ghenda said:


> Even Northen Kharian is standard punjabi. Only chibs speak potohari to the point that its known as ''rajea di boli'' to differentiate. Malik awans in kharian are proper awans even though they speak majhi punjabi. Awans are spread all over punjab, remember potohar is very small region of 4 districts in Punjab out of 32.
> 
> Abbasis are also spread all over including South Punjab, but they claim arab ancestry like awans.
> 
> Janjuas and Ghkkhars (no idea of jodhras) are indeed potoharis mostly, but few can be found in central punjab. My friend was Kayani who now i know are Ghakkars.
> 
> 
> 
> So Malik Atta is awan?



Chibs are not the only "rajas" in Kharian I believe. Raja Aziz Bhatti was also from the same region. The Gujjars in Jhelum speak Majhi punjabi, interestingly. Jodhras are the "maliks" of Pindi Gheb. Malik Atta is a Gheba. Malik is just a title, which many clans use.


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> Chibs are not the only "rajas" in Kharian I believe. Raja Aziz Bhatti was also from the same region. The Gujjars in Jhelum speak Majhi punjabi, interestingly. Jodhras are the "maliks" of Pindi Gheb. Malik Atta is a Gheba. Malik is just a title, which many clans use.



Bhatti rajputs in Kharian speak majhi punjabi like other central punjabis. Only chibs somehow speak potohari which was very surprising. Gujjars of Jhelum case is similar to Chibs in that case. Yes Malik is just a title, also used by Khokhars in Kharian. Town named Kurre Sharif in Kharian tehsil is famous for mazar of Jasrath Khokhar.


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## ghoul

save_ghenda said:


> Bhatti rajputs in Kharian speak majhi punjabi like other central punjabis. Only chibs somehow speak potohari which was very surprising. Gujjars of Jhelum case is similar to Chibs in that case. Yes Malik is just a title, also used by Khokhars in Kharian. Town named Kurre Sharif in Kharian tehsil is famous for mazar of Jasrath Khokhar.



Oh really? That's interesting. Is that just a legend or his real tomb? Do you have a picture? What are khokhars considered in Kharian? Rajput or something else? The funny thing is that the "khokhars" using malik as a title claim descent from Qutb-Shah(like the awans)... Yet the Khokhars of Pind Dadan Khan(who are rajas) claim descent from Jasrath Khokhar. The awans of Attock are called "Khokhar awan"...


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## krash

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 137602



That is Princess of Hope in Balochistan.


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> Oh really? That's interesting. Is that just a legend or his real tomb? Do you have a picture? What are khokhars considered in Kharian? Rajput or something else? The funny thing is that the "khokhars" using malik as a title claim descent from Qutb-Shah(like the awans)... Yet the Khokhars of Pind Dadan Khan(who are rajas) claim descent from Jasrath Khokhar. The awans of Attock are called "Khokhar awan"...



I don't have photo of mazar. These khokhars are jats in Kharian. In case of khokhars i don't know if they claim outside ancestry in real life, i doubt it. They either say they are jat or rajputs khokhars. Because most of these claims are traced back to one book written by H. A. Rose century ago. But my malik awan friend used to claim he had arab ancestry. I have noticed even on forums etc awans claim arab/afghan ancestry.


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## Samandri

ghoul said:


> Chibs are not the only "rajas" in Kharian I believe. Raja Aziz Bhatti was also from the same region. The Gujjars in Jhelum speak Majhi punjabi, interestingly. Jodhras are the "maliks" of Pindi Gheb. Malik Atta is a Gheba. Malik is just a title, which many clans use.


I wonder if there is any link between malik/malak of pashtuns and awans?...Chief of clan is called malik/malak among pashtuns while in case of awans, it seems, is a general title like khan.


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## ghoul

Samandri said:


> I wonder if there is any link between malik/malak of pashtuns and awans?...Chief of clan is called malik/malak among pashtuns while in case of awans, it seems, is a general title like khan.



Malik is a title used by many different Potohari and Punjabi tribes. Almost every awan uses malik. Apart from awans, Ghebas, Jodhras and Tiwanas are also always use malik. The last 3 tribes I mentioned are rajputs. In Pashtuns I think malik is just a word for "chieftain". Almost every land owner tribe of Potohar has its own title. The rajputs and Gakkhars almost always use the tile "raja". The Khattars and some Awans of Talagang almost always use "sardar". The Kakezai of Potohar also use the title of malik. I think Malik Riaz and Shoaib Malik are both Kakezai.

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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> Malik is a title used by many different Potohari and Punjabi tribes. Almost every awan uses malik. Apart from awans, Ghebas, Jodhras and Tiwanas are also always use malik. The last 3 tribes I mentioned are rajputs. In Pashtuns I think malik is just a word for "chieftain". Almost every land owner tribe of Potohar has its own title. The rajputs and Gakkhars almost always use the tile "raja". The Khattars and some Awans of Talagang almost always use "sardar". The Kakezai of Potohar also use the title of malik. I think Malik Riaz and Shoaib Malik are both Kakezai.



Malik riaz and shoaib malik are awans from Sialkot.


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## ghoul

save_ghenda said:


> Malik riaz and shoaib malik are awans from Sialkot.



I read somewhere that they are both kakezai from Sialkot. This malik raiz might be a nai though, using the name malik only to gain respect of the Potoharis, whose lands he stole. He became rich by grabbing the lands of the poor and less influential Potoharis of Pindi region. This is what a lack of nationalism gets you... Though, a local Potohari, Malik Bari served him right, but unfortunately he died early. Malik Bari is said to have killed 2 retired army colonels affiliated with Bahria town. He also fired upon Malik Riaz's vehicle once.


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> I read somewhere that they are both kakezai from Sialkot. This malik raiz might be a nai though, using the name malik only to gain respect of the Potoharis, whose lands he stole. He became rich by grabbing the lands of the poor and less influential Potoharis of Pindi region. This is what a lack of nationalism gets you... Though, a local Potohari, Malik Bari served him right, but unfortunately he died early. Malik Bari is said to have killed 2 retired army colonels affiliated with Bahria town. He also fired upon Malik Riaz's vehicle once.



Shoaib and Riaz are awans, will post link when i found it. Telis use malik surname and nai use rajas. Its hard to verify anything once you are in city anyway.


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## ghoul

Luddi, the traditional dance of Potohar. Bhangra type dancing is virtually unknown in Potohar plateau. I think the flute music behind is also very typical of Potohar. The typical Punjabi type music is practically unheard similarly.


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## jatt+gutts

ghoul said:


> Luddi, the traditional dance of Potohar. Bhangra type dancing is virtually unknown in Potohar plateau. I think the flute music behind is also very typical of Potohar. The typical Punjabi type music is practically unheard similarly.



what is this dancing called.. are these people Punjabis..doest look Punjabi people to me.


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## ghazi52

*Chakwal*...............


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## ghazi52

*RANI TAJ - Live with The Dons of Dhol *


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## ghoul

jatt+gutts said:


> what is this dancing called.. are these people Punjabis..doest look Punjabi people to me.



It's called "luddi". It's the staple Potohari wedding dance. And we're not exactly "Punjabi". Have you seen those mirpuri people in UK? They are ethnic Potoharis, but from Azad Kashmir(messed up borders in Pakistan). And yes we do look different, but some people deny the differences. Too much politic involved. 

This is what your common Potoharis look like, and the flute music is very Potohari:


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> what is this dancing called.. are these people Punjabis..doest look Punjabi people to me.



Jatt please watch these punjabis from Gujrat, start from 8:00. Do they look like punjabis to you? To me they do, at least Pakistani punjabis from where i come from. Also post exemple of how punjabis are supposed to look since its a diverse ethnic group. Don't expect sikh pags in our punjab.

_




@Shahmir i have no idea what they are doing in this video. I guess this is what deobandis and wahabis hate? Lol_


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## jatt+gutts

ghoul said:


> It's called "luddi". It's the staple Potohari wedding dance. And we're not exactly "Punjabi". Have you seen those mirpuri people in UK? They are ethnic Potoharis, but from Azad Kashmir(messed up borders in Pakistan). And yes we do look different, but some people deny the differences. Too much politic involved.
> 
> This is what your common Potoharis look like, and the flute music is very Potohari:


flute music is beutifill but very pahari type.. beautiful people but I woudnt count them as Punjabi.. they look like himachalis to me


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## ghoul

jatt+gutts said:


> flute music is beutifill but very pahari type.. beautiful people but I woudnt count them as Punjabi.. they look like himachalis to me



I would be lying if I said we don't look different from Punjabis in general. Pakistani central punjabis look just like Sikh punjabis. We Potoharis look a bit different. Sanjay Dutt for example has a very Potohari look. I don't think he looks Punjabi. As for Himachal and Jammu, we do have distant links to them. The Chibs of Mirpur and Jhelum region came from Kangra, Himachal. The Mair Minhas of Chakwal, and Minhas Rajas from Pindi are descendants of Jammu Manhas clan. Raja Pervez Ashraf from Gujar Khan is a Minhas.

And Potohari language sounds a bit like Dogri(I saw some video). In Potohar Hindko like dialects are often spoken too, but this is the standard Potohari:





What does it sound like?


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Jatt please watch these punjabis from Gujrat, start from 8:00. Do they look like punjabis to you? To me they do, at least Pakistani punjabis from where i come from. Also post exemple of how punjabis are supposed to look since its a diverse ethnic group. Don't expect sikh pags in our punjab.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Shahmir i have no idea what they are doing in this video. I guess this is what deobandis and wahabis hate? Lol_



only a couple look like Punjabis which I am used to as people... forget pagg Punjabi people which I am used to look like these.


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> only a couple look like Punjabis which I am used to as people... forget pagg Punjabi people which I am used to look like these.



Couple? They all look punjabis to me. What they look like? Watch another video from Gujrat, you will also get to know accent/dialect central punjabis speak which is little different then sikh punjabi and potohari.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=713476558728595


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## jatt+gutts

ghoul said:


> I would be lying if I said we don't look different from Punjabis in general. Pakistani central punjabis look just like Sikh punjabis. We Potoharis look a bit different. Sanjay Dutt for example has a very Potohari look. I don't think he looks Punjabi. As for Himachal and Jammu, we do have distant links to them. The Chibs of Mirpur and Jhelum region came from Kangra, Himachal. The Mair Minhas of Chakwal, and Minhas Rajas from Pindi are descendants of Jammu Manhas clan. Raja Pervez Ashraf from Gujar Khan is a Minhas.
> 
> And Potohari language sounds a bit like Dogri(I saw some video). In Potohar Hindko like dialects are often spoken too, but this is the standard Potohari:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does it sound like?


it sound a bit different from standard Punjabi but is Punjabi for sure. sounds beutifull and seems like influenced fom dogri


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## ghoul

jatt+gutts said:


> it sound a bit different from standard Punjabi but is Punjabi for sure. sounds beutifull and seems like influenced fom dogri



Check my previous posts on this thread about the Dhanni dialect of Chakwal. It is a hindko influenced dialect. Please watch those videos and tell me what they sound like.


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Couple? They all look punjabis to me. What they look like? Watch another video from Gujrat, you will also get to know accent/dialect central punjabis speak which is little different then sikh punjabi and potohari.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=713476558728595


dude who is singing look like Sikh Punjabi and some other dudes look like hindu Punjabi.. yep I would say majority in this video look familier although the language sound a bit different ... bit like mirassi.. take no offence just coincidence


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## ghoul

And Potohari and Hindko influenced dialects of Potohar are said to be very "sweet sounding". There's a stereotype associated with Potoharis in Punjab that we are "khushaamdi" or "a*** lickers" as our language sounds way too sweet. I have heard this from many people, including a person from my village. He said people of central Punjab thought he was being a khushamdi when he tried talking to them. And here is another video of Dhanni dialect of Chakwal:





PS: I love this song. Sounds very sweet. I'm a standard Potohari speaker btw.


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## jatt+gutts

@ghoul 
that dhanni sounds just another Punjabi dialect to me... I can understand it well


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> dude who is singing look like Sikh Punjabi and some other dudes look like hindu Punjabi.. yep I would say majority in this video look familier although the language look a bit different ... bit like mirassi.. take no offence just coincidence



The guy singing is jatt and have taken mirasi profession. I also see many jat sikhs being in kanjar profession now days. Anyway central punjabi is known as ''standard punjabi'', like for exemple heer warish shah was in standard punjabi and its different then sikhi punjabi. Previous video i posted were also punjabis. If you say anyother place i may break your nose through virtual screen.....



J/k


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## ghoul

jatt+gutts said:


> @ghoul
> that dhanni sounds just another Punjabi dialect to me... I can understand it well



It sounds quite similar to Hindko. You'd like to hear hindko too. And did Dhanni sound like Potohari?



save_ghenda said:


> Couple? They all look punjabis to me. What they look like? Watch another video from Gujrat, you will also get to know accent/dialect central punjabis speak which is little different then sikh punjabi and potohari.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=713476558728595



The type of music that those guys are playing is very stereotypical "Punjabi". This music type would be very alien as soon as you cross river Jhelum.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> The guy singing is jatt and have taken mirasi profession. I also see many jat sikhs being in kanjar profession now days. Anyway central punjabi is known as ''standard punjabi'', like for exemple heer warish shah was in standard punjabi and its different then sikhi punjabi. Previous video i posted were also punjabis. If you say anyother place i may break your nose through virtual screen.....
> 
> 
> 
> J/k


are all singers in Pakistan mirassis. by the way there are lot of singers who are actually mirassis in indian Punjab... example kuldeep manak, Punjabi raj gayak hans raj hans and many others.. they sing about jatts doest mean they are jatts


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## ghoul

The group singing, like Chakwal group in coke studio, is a very common pan-Potohari style. This song "nai aya" is a very common Potohari folk song sung all over. Start at 2:39 for group singing:





Here's another singer singing that:


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## jatt+gutts

ghoul said:


> It sounds quite similar to Hindko. You'd like to hear hindko too. And did Dhanni sound like Potohari?
> 
> 
> 
> The type of music that those guys are playing is very stereotypical "Punjabi". This music type would be very alien as soon as you cross river Jhelum.


sounds bit similar to patohari to me..but I can decipher what they were singings.. they sound ok not alien


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> And Potohari and Hindko influenced dialects of Potohar are said to be very "sweet sounding". There's a stereotype associated with Potoharis in Punjab that we are "khushaamdi" or "a*** lickers" as our language sounds way too sweet. I have heard this from many people, including a person from my village. He said people of central Punjab thought he was being a khushamdi when he tried talking to them. And here is another video of Dhanni dialect of Chakwal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I love this song. Sounds very sweet. I'm a standard Potohari speaker btw.



You are 100% right about stereotype about Potohari language. Its indeed sweet language compared to somewhat rude punjabi spoken in our villages. My father friend is from Jhelum and he is indeed famous for talking sweet or khushaamdi (a** licker?) among us lol


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## ghoul

save_ghenda said:


> You are 100% right about stereotype about Potohari language. Its indeed sweet language compared to somewhat rude punjabi spoken in our villages. My father friend is from Jhelum and he is indeed famous for talking sweet or khushaamdi (a** licker?) among us lol



Some Potoharis really mind it. I find it rather amusing. But in general, Potoharis are the exact opposite of khushamdi types. It's only our accent haha. 

And btw Potohar has a pashtun like concept of revenge. Talagang, Fateh Jhang, Pindi Gheb and Chakwal are very notorious for murders, mostly caused by revenge and land disputes. The problem was much more widespread in colonial era, and Britishers wrote about it too.


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> are all singers in Pakistan mirassis. by the way there are lot of singers who are actually mirassis in indian Punjab... example kuldeep manak, Punjabi raj gayak hans raj hans and many others.. they sing about jatts doest mean they are jatts



Most of singers in Indian punjab have jatt surnames.


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> Some Potoharis really mind it. I find it rather amusing. But in general, Potoharis are the exact opposite of khushamdi types. It's only our accent haha.
> 
> And btw Potohar has a pashtun like concept of revenge. Talagang, Fateh Jhang, Pindi Gheb and Chakwal are very notorious for murders, mostly caused by revenge and land disputes. The problem was much more widespread in colonial era, and Britishers wrote about it too.



Killing over land disputes used to be normal in Gujrawala division. But after industrilization of Gujrat, Sialkot and Gujrawala otherwise known as golden export triangle of Pakistan plus huge remitances from abroad have reduced importances of land somewhat and with it killings also. Also people over the years have become more civilized.


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Most of singers in Indian punjab have jatt surnames.


 
majority are non jatts.. doest mean singing is only mirassi profession. there are Khatri singers, mirassi singers and jatt singers.


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> It's called "luddi". It's the staple Potohari wedding dance. And we're not exactly "Punjabi". Have you seen those mirpuri people in UK? They are ethnic Potoharis, but from Azad Kashmir(messed up borders in Pakistan). And yes we do look different, but some people deny the differences. Too much politic involved.
> 
> This is what your common Potoharis look like, and the flute music is very Potohari:



You are right, uk mirpuris may get offended even though they speak potohari and not even pahari? Because Mirpur like Bhimber is basically plains compared to other Azad Kashmir areas. Anyway i don't think Mirpuris in UK who are majority jats look different then other jats in Punjab.

But Azad Kashmir is very diverse, there is huge Sudhan (pashtuns), gujjars etc population. Plus pretty big comunity of ethnic kashmiris/dards in Neelum and Muzzafarabad districts. Overall very diverse area and UK mirpuris jats who look more like plain punjabis are not really representive of overall Azad Kashmir.


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## xyxmt

ghoul said:


> Dhani dialect of Chakwal. It starts from 1:45 onward, and ends at 4:30.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the name of the linguistic study, but it was done by a British linguist, and he classified Dhani as a dialect of Hindko rather than standard Potohari-Pahari. With that said, people of Chakwal and south western Jhelum still identify themselves as Potohari, even though they speak a dhani dialect, which sounds different in my opinion. Standard Potohari type dialects are also spoken in some regions of Punjab.
> 
> If you're a native Punjabi speaker, can you easily understand it or does it sound too accented and "different"? What about Potohari speakers, can you understand this dialect easily?



its not potohari its hindko, from fateh jang and around that area potohari slowly changes into Hindko


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## xyxmt

ghoul said:


> It sounds pretty similar to Hindko. Some Hindko nationalists even include Chakwal in their potential province. I bet general people from central like regions will have trouble understanding his accent and vocabulary. Does it sound easier or difficult than Potohari?
> 
> And Azad Kashmiris are a confused lot. I always laugh when they describe themselves as "Kashmiri jatt:, "Kashmiri rajput" etc. I guess they took on this "Kashmiri" identity to disown any association with Punjab, as do the hindko people, who even deny that their language sounds quite similar to Punjabi and is a dialect rather than a language. Potohari/Pahari can be considered a different language though considering it has its own literature. Literature is the main criteria that sets languages apart. Hence Italian, Portuguese and Spanish are considered separate languages even though they are mutually understandable. Similarly Swedish and Norwegian languages are considered separate.
> 
> PS: Dhanni speakers might speak a hindko like dialect, but they are ethnically Potoharis. They are mostly malik awans and rajas, who are the quintessential Potohari tribes.



Chakwal is hindko speaking, as far as hindko and punjabi similarities, how about consider the border areas of sind and punjab, do they speak punjabi or sindi, when does punjabi become sindi or sindi becomes sariaki. You cannot label any language a name then compare another language because Hindko spoken in chakwal will be a bit different than hindko spoken 50 miles north of chakwal or the one spoken in Pishawar. Hindko spoken where I am from includes some pure Persian words examples Shireen is used commonly for sweet but you cant label it persian dialect. My wife who is potohari can undestand maybe 50% of Hindko when I speak fluently with my mom but sometime she asks me what is that you were talking about means she didnt have a clue



ghoul said:


> *Potohar might also be the most crime free region in Pakistan*. The traditional dress of Potohar; shalwar kameez, white turban and a woolen waist coast:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The typical Potohari turban:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tent pegging, known as "neza bazi" in local dialects, is the national sport of the region;



Reason being too many retired soldier with guns in their lockers.


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## xyxmt

Samandri said:


> I wonder if there is any link between malik/malak of pashtuns and awans?...Chief of clan is called malik/malak among pashtuns while in case of awans, it seems, is a general title like khan.



It is pronounced as Malak even by Awans, but I think when they started writing in Urdu it became malik


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## Roybot

Is it safe to say that the Potohori culture and people seem more Indic than Iranic? Even more than the "regular" Pakistani Punjabis to an extent.

I wonder if there if relation between the Potohori people and the Hindu Kabul Shahi kingdoms.


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## Kabira

Roybot said:


> Is it safe to say that the Potohori culture and people seem more Indic than Iranic? Even more than the "regular" Pakistani Punjabis to an extent.
> 
> I wonder if there if relation between the Potohori people and the Hindu Kabul Shahi kingdoms.



In wiki there are three tribes mentioned. Kamboh, Janjuas and Moyals.

Kamboh nows days mostly are in central punjab in Pakistan and hindu, sikhs kamboh in Indian punjab. Moyals mostly in Indian punjab, because converted ones go by some other names now days. Vast majority of Janjuas live in Potohar and Azad Kashmir with very few in central punjab, also some non-muslims Janjuas in Indian punjab.


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## Kabira

xyxmt said:


> Chakwal is hindko speaking, as far as hindko and punjabi similarities, how about consider the border areas of sind and punjab, do they speak punjabi or sindi, when does punjabi become sindi or sindi becomes sariaki. You cannot label any language a name then compare another language because Hindko spoken in chakwal will be a bit different than hindko spoken 50 miles north of chakwal or the one spoken in Pishawar. Hindko spoken where I am from includes some pure Persian words examples Shireen is used commonly for sweet but you cant label it persian dialect. My wife who is potohari can undestand maybe 50% of Hindko when I speak fluently with my mom but sometime she asks me what is that you were talking about means she didnt have a clue
> .



So this map is pretty accurate? Jhelum & Rawalpindi pothohari areas while Chakwal and Attock are Hindko/Dhani speaking? A part from that little green dot which is Islamabad, make sense because Islamabad is pretty diverse city with majority being from Central Punjab.






Also Darhab right along Dogri in Narowal district border area seem to be pretty similar to Dogri. I think Dogri/Darhab are like Pothohari/Pahari. At least Pahari spoken by Mirpuris is almost like Pothohari spoken by people of Jhelum in my experience.


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> majority are non jatts.. doest mean singing is only mirassi profession. there are Khatri singers, mirassi singers and jatt singers.



I know, i was just joking. Anyway the video you posted of Indian punjabis didn't look like punjabis to me. I have seen khalistani sikhs videos and they do resemble Pakistani punjabis somewhat but not the one you posted.


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## ghoul

Roybot said:


> Is it safe to say that the Potohori culture and people seem more Indic than Iranic? Even more than the "regular" Pakistani Punjabis to an extent.
> 
> I wonder if there if relation between the Potohori people and the Hindu Kabul Shahi kingdoms.



Yes Hindu Shahis were Potoharis. Most of their buildings are found in Potohar(Nandana, Paharwala etc). Mohyals were said to be the generals of Hindu Shahis, and most Mohyals are found in Potohar. Sanjay Dutt is a Potohari Mohyal for example. Katas Raj in Chakwal was a Mohyal colony. The Hindu Shahi rulers were said to be Kshatriya, hence they most likely belonged to some local Rajput tribe.

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## ghoul

xyxmt said:


> Chakwal is hindko speaking, as far as hindko and punjabi similarities, how about consider the border areas of sind and punjab, do they speak punjabi or sindi, when does punjabi become sindi or sindi becomes sariaki. You cannot label any language a name then compare another language because Hindko spoken in chakwal will be a bit different than hindko spoken 50 miles north of chakwal or the one spoken in Pishawar. Hindko spoken where I am from includes some pure Persian words examples Shireen is used commonly for sweet but you cant label it persian dialect. My wife who is potohari can undestand maybe 50% of Hindko when I speak fluently with my mom but sometime she asks me what is that you were talking about means she didnt have a clue
> 
> 
> 
> Reason being too many retired soldier with guns in their lockers.



Chakwal and Fatehjhang areas speak Hindko like dialects, but they are not hindkowans. Almost in all the salt range, including south western Jhelum, these Hindko like dialects are spoken. The people, interestingly, call these dialects punjabi. Proper hindko language starts from Chaach ilaqa of Attock and northern Margalla hills.

But all over Potohar, the local people identify with a Potohari ethnic identity(maybe except chaach), and the folk songs and music are same. Chakwal to Murree, same folk poetry is recited, and same music type is played.

Also 50% is an exaggeration. Yes vocabulary is a bit different, but the languages still sound very similar. Peshawari hindko almost sounds like Punjabi and urdu hybrid.


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## xyxmt

ghoul said:


> Chakwal and Fatehjhang areas speak Hindko like dialects, but they are not hindkowans. Almost in all the salt range, including south western Jhelum, these Hindko like dialects are spoken. The people, interestingly, call these dialects punjabi. Proper hindko language starts from Chaach ilaqa of Attock and northern Margalla hills.
> 
> But all over Potohar, the local people identify with a Potohari ethnic identity(maybe except chaach), and the folk songs and music are same. Chakwal to Murree, same folk poetry is recited, and same music type is played.
> 
> Also 50% is an exaggeration. Yes vocabulary is a bit different, but the languages still sound very similar. Peshawari hindko almost sounds like Punjabi and urdu hybrid.



dialect changes for every language after 50 miles and you dont call it a "like" language. New york dialect is different than new england which is different than texan with different than Newfoundland but they are all english and you dont call them english like languages.

All dialects of Hindko sound like Urdu if you hear is from an distance, hence you cant identify a native Hindko speaker when he is speaks Urdu.


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## ghoul

xyxmt said:


> dialect changes for every language after 50 miles and you dont call it a "like" language. New york dialect is different than new england which is different than texan with different than Newfoundland but they are all english and you dont call them english like languages.
> 
> All dialects of Hindko sound like Urdu if you hear is from an distance, hence you cant identify a native Hindko speaker when he is speaks Urdu.



The local people don't call their language hindko, that's what I'm saying. Most call their language either punjabi or "chakwali" or something. They also identify with a Potohari identity rather than hindko or punjabi. And Hindko itself is a dialect of punjabi and not a separate language considering it has no literature.


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## xyxmt

ghoul said:


> The local people don't call their language hindko, that's what I'm saying. Most call their language either punjabi or "chakwali" or something. They also identify with a Potohari identity rather than hindko or punjabi. And Hindko itself is a dialect of punjabi and not a separate language considering it has no literature.



no one calls their language hindko in my family we call it punjabi mostly because its all part of punjab, just like potohari dont sy they are speaking potohari they would rather say they are speaking punjabi, same with sariaki people. reason being they are known as punjabi. but if you think its a dialect of punjabi then lets meet somewhere and have some conversation 

by the way there are so many common sindhi words in Hindko that growing up in Karachi we had to take sindhi courses and I would ace it while other fail or barely pass it

examples, 
if you have to say sit here
punjabi will say "bay ja"
hindko will say "Ajh po or ajho cha"
sindhi would say "Ajho baba"

so is hinkdo a dialect of Sindhi or Punjabi


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## Samandri

xyxmt said:


> no one calls their language hindko in my family we call it punjabi mostly because its all part of punjab, just like potohari dont sy they are speaking potohari they would rather say they are speaking punjabi, same with sariaki people. reason being they are known as punjabi. but if you think its a dialect of punjabi then lets meet somewhere and have some conversation
> 
> by the way there are so many common sindhi words in Hindko that growing up in Karachi we had to take sindhi courses and I would ace it while other fail or barely pass it
> 
> examples,
> if you have to say sit here
> punjabi will say "bay ja"
> hindko will say "Ajh po or ajho cha"
> sindhi would say "Ajho baba"
> 
> so is hinkdo a dialect of Sindhi or Punjabi


Strange to hear that hindko is dialect of sindhi, wouldnt that be seraiki?. On interesting note seraiki of mianwali is called hindko in our areas (lakki marwat). In lakki city there is community of multanis, who speak seraiki in their homes but is called hindko by us.


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## xyxmt

Samandri said:


> Strange to hear that hindko is dialect of sindhi, wouldnt that be seraiki?. On interesting note seraiki of mianwali is called hindko in our areas (lakki marwat). In lakki city there is community of multanis, who speak seraiki in their homes but is called hindko by us.



Sariaki and Hinko are 95% similar, I am from talagang area which is about 60 miles from Mianwali, you can even can call Sariaki and hinko the same language. What makes them similar to each other in my opinion is that a river runs thru that whole belt call Indus, that was the Indus civilization before people started moving further towards central punjab.


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## Samandri

xyxmt said:


> Sariaki and Hinko are 95% similar, I am from talagang area which is about 60 miles from Mianwali, you can even can call Sariaki and hinko the same language. What makes them similar to each other in my opinion is that a river runs thru that whole belt call Indus, that was the Indus civilization before people started moving further towards central punjab.


Thats interesting. And how much Hindko, seraiki are different from standard Punjabi ?


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## Kabira

Samandri said:


> Strange to hear that hindko is dialect of sindhi, wouldnt that be seraiki?. On interesting note seraiki of mianwali is called hindko in our areas (lakki marwat). In lakki city there is community of multanis, who speak seraiki in their homes but is called hindko by us.



I think in Mianwali they probably speak hindko. Seraiki is also umbrella term like ''punjabi'' basically if i am not wrong. Anyway he gave exemple of similarity between sindhi and hindko. Not that hindko is dialect of sindhi.

Edit: seem like xymt already explained before me.


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## xyxmt

Samandri said:


> Thats interesting. And how much Hindko, seraiki are different from standard Punjabi ?





Samandri said:


> Thats interesting. And how much Hindko, seraiki are different from standard Punjabi ?



if you just count the word I would say 50 to 70% but a language is not the the words its the attitude, the way of communication, commonly use phrases which are totally different. Punjabi is very aggressive language in fact sometime seems so rude but Sariaki and hinko are much softer there are no ups and downs (jhutkey) like in Punjabi, its much softer to your ears, much closer to urdu in tone.

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## KingMamba

xyxmt said:


> if you just count the word I would say 50 to 70% but a language is not the the words its the attitude, the way of communication, commonly use phrases which are totally different. Punjabi is very aggressive language in fact sometime seems so rude but Sariaki and hinko are much softer there are no ups and downs (jhutkey) like in Punjabi, its much softer to your ears, much closer to urdu in tone.



I concur that Punjabi is a very rude language.

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## ghoul

xyxmt said:


> Sariaki and Hinko are 95% similar, I am from talagang area which is about 60 miles from Mianwali, you can even can call Sariaki and hinko the same language. What makes them similar to each other in my opinion is that a river runs thru that whole belt call Indus, that was the Indus civilization before people started moving further towards central punjab.



The "chakwal group" from coke studio are from Talagang. Talagang people never use the word "hindko" ever. Real hindko is spoken from the chaach ilaqa. Talagang dialect is called Dhanni and Awankari most of the time. From south western Jhelum to Attock, the dialects sound highly similar, but people never call their language "hindko" as such. 

And Saraiki sound highly different from both Hindko and Potohari. The Chakwali languages show very distinct Potohari words too btw. Nonetheless, the Attock Chakwal people almost always associate with a Potohari identity, and prefer to intermarry with other Potoharis rather than hindkowans etc. The culture of the whole region is distinctly Potohari. After that Seraiki province politics by the ex-pm of Pakistan, I read a few letters to newspapers by the local awans saying that they considered themselves Potohari rather than Seraiki. 

Also, native Potohari speakers would barely have any trouble communicating with Talagang, Fateh Jhang people. 



xyxmt said:


> if you just count the word I would say 50 to 70% but a language is not the the words its the attitude, the way of communication, commonly use phrases which are totally different. Punjabi is very aggressive language in fact sometime seems so rude but Sariaki and hinko are much softer there are no ups and downs (jhutkey) like in Punjabi, its much softer to your ears, much closer to urdu in tone.



Yeah I talked about that with save gehnda too. Jhelum people are considered very khushaamdi and "sweet talkers" in Gujrat region, but only because of our language and accent haha. And about Potohari; it has striking similarities with Dogri. Some trademark Potohari words are "jaso", "khaso", "gachna" etc.


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## Butchcassidy

ghoul said:


> Yes Hindu Shahis were Potoharis. Most of their buildings are found in Potohar(Nandana, Paharwala etc). Mohyals were said to be the generals of Hindu Shahis, and most Mohyals are found in Potohar. Sanjay Dutt is a Potohari Mohyal for example. Katas Raj in Chakwal was a Mohyal colony. The Hindu Shahi rulers were said to be Kshatriya, hence they most likely belonged to some local Rajput tribe.


My maternal side is from there, they are mohyal dutt.

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## xyxmt

ghoul said:


> The "chakwal group" from coke studio are from Talagang. Talagang people never use the word "hindko" ever. Real hindko is spoken from the chaach ilaqa. Talagang dialect is called Dhanni and Awankari most of the time. From south western Jhelum to Attock, the dialects sound highly similar, but people never call their language "hindko" as such.
> 
> And Saraiki sound highly different from both Hindko and Potohari. The Chakwali languages show very distinct Potohari words too btw. Nonetheless, the Attock Chakwal people almost always associate with a Potohari identity, and prefer to intermarry with other Potoharis rather than hindkowans etc. The culture of the whole region is distinctly Potohari. After that Seraiki province politics by the ex-pm of Pakistan, I read a few letters to newspapers by the local awans saying that they considered themselves Potohari rather than Seraiki.
> 
> Also, native Potohari speakers would barely have any trouble communicating with Talagang, Fateh Jhang people.



I respect your expert linguistic opinion. But I, who was born in Talagang Lived all my life in Karachi with spending full 2.5 summer months every year traveling and staying with my Grand parents in the village, and who is married into a potohari family would know a little bit about these languages.

my wife always argued with me that she used to watch peshawari hindko daramy, she insists its not the same language we speak. mind you she never understood when I spoke with my mom.This is the same thinking some urdu speaker have who think Punjabi is whats spoken in the punjabi movies and they understand it all. Seems like you are that kind of hindko expert too. what is your native language or dialect ?

Hindko is only known as hindko in KPK, in punjab its referred to as Punjabi same as sariaki goto multan and ask any multani what language are you speaking they will say punjabi, its all in punjab. If its not Punjabi then get us out of Punjab, and who to say your language is Punjabi and mine isnt.


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## ghoul

xyxmt said:


> I respect your expert linguistic opinion. But I, who was born in Talagang Lived all my life in Karachi with spending full 2.5 summer months every year traveling and staying with my Grand parents in the village, and who is married into a potohari family would know a little bit about these languages.
> 
> my wife always argued with me that she used to watch peshawari hindko daramy, she insists its not the same language we speak. mind you she never understood when I spoke with my mom.This is the same thinking some urdu speaker have who think Punjabi is whats spoken in the punjabi movies and they understand it all. Seems like you are that kind of hindko expert too. what is your native language or dialect ?
> 
> Hindko is only known as hindko in KPK, in punjab its referred to as Punjabi same as sariaki goto multan and ask any multani what language are you speaking they will say punjabi, its all in punjab. If its not Punjabi then get us out of Punjab, and who to say your language is Punjabi and mine isnt.



Of course man those dialects are different than Potohari, that's why I shared them. They're like hindko, but distinct nonetheless. I find the Dhanni dialect really interesting that's why I shared the video. And I'm a Potohari speaker(jhelumi-mirpuri dialect). Potohari dialects are called pahari in AJK.

I just doubted if local people called their language hindko.


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## FaujHistorian

KingMamba said:


> I concur that Punjabi is a very rude language.



Rude Punjabis use rude language. So many PTIans are an example of that. 

Civilized Punjabis use softer language. So many nice Punjabis are examples of that. 

Same thing can be said for us Karachi folks, the Arab folks and every one around the world.


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## Kabira

Butchcassidy said:


> My maternal side is from there, they are mohyal dutt.



Muslims janjuas and kamboh still exist but never heard of any Mohyal muslim. Maybe their numbers were very low to begin with compared to janjuas and kamboh. There is theory sudhans are mohyals.

MOHIYAL BRAHMINS : THE ANCIENT RULERS OF PUNJAB & AFGHANISAN - Punjab Monitor

And from what i have read Mohyals brahmins were similar to other punjabi tribes in a sense that they mostly married with in tribe instead of any brahmin before partition, this is true? There used to be big Mohyal comunity in Sialkot, maybe converted ones go by other names now days.


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## xyxmt

ghoul said:


> Of course man those dialects are different than Potohari, that's why I shared them. They're like hindko, but distinct nonetheless. I find the Dhanni dialect really interesting that's why I shared the video. And I'm a Potohari speaker(jhelumi-mirpuri dialect). Potohari dialects are called pahari in AJK.
> 
> *I just doubted if local people called their language hindko*.



no they dont, those areas where hinko is spoken were so isolated untill 60s that they didnt know about anything some 100 miles away from them. My father told me they used to walk 2 days to get a bus for Pindi, I know people in my father's village would refer to their language as punjabi but when they met someone they didnt know and who spoke hindko they will refer to him as "addi boli bolna" meaning he spoke our language, so they considered it different than punjabi but didnt know what to call it.

One thing that I found common among Hinko speakers is they all eat black halwa (some call it sabooni halwa) and drink daal with it, they eat halwa till they cant eat anymore then they drink a bowl of daal to make more appetite for halwa. they f'ing eat it so much that some people died from over eating.


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## jatt+gutts

KingMamba said:


> I concur that Punjabi is a very rude language.


it depends how you perceive a particular language.. urduish Punjabi we in indian Punjab consider it bhapa language...Urdu itself is considerd bhaiya language. Pakistani are different mentality people so they think always ulta opposite to the norm.



save_ghenda said:


> I know, i was just joking. Anyway the video you posted of Indian punjabis didn't look like punjabis to me. I have seen khalistani sikhs videos and they do resemble Pakistani punjabis somewhat but not the one you posted.


Dunno what has happened to Punjabis in your side.. probably difference in diet and religion as islam considers it haram to show too much happiness could have changed your side looks since 1947. your side people seem to have less refined features and thiner bones and small body frame. what could be the reason. n u know what khalistan Lehar was mostly in the Amritsar district of Punjab and I posted the video from khalsa college amritsar


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> it depends how you perceive a particular language.. urduish Punjabi we in indian Punjab consider it bhapa language...Urdu itself is considerd bhaiya language. Pakistani are different mentality people so they think always ulta opposite to the norm.
> 
> 
> Dunno what has happened to Punjabis in your side.. probably difference in diet and religion as islam considers it haram to show too much happiness could have changed your side looks since 1947. your side people seem to have less refined features and thiner bones and small body frame. what could be the reason. n u know what khalistan Lehar was mostly in the Amritsar district of Punjab and I posted the video from khalsa college amritsar



You are blind men, only sikh jatts with Pakistan roots have good looks among you IMO. Its proven fact.  Anyway bhaiyas are taking over East Punjab not west punjab

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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> You are blind men, only sikh jatts with Pakistan roots have good looks among you IMO. Its proven fact.  Anyway bhaiyas are taking over East Punjab not west punjab


are you for real dude.. your side Punjabi are shorter darker and with less refined features with wide noses .. as you yourself showed in your video. maybe that is definition of good looks in your Pakistan.. lol  anyways what could be the reason you guys look so different.. is it because you mingled with bhaiyas.






they don't look Pakistani at all


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> are you for real dude.. your side Punjabi are shorter darker and with less refined features with wide noses .. as you yourself showed in your video. maybe that is definition of good looks in your Pakistan.. lol  anyways what could be the reason you guys look so different.. is it because you mingled with bhaiyas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they don't look Pakistani at all



Just 20 years before all of you turn bhaiyas , process is already started from what i see when looking at sikhs now days. Then you will only have 50 years old videos to show how once sikhs used to look.


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Just 20 years before all of you turn bhaiyas , process is already started from what i see when looking at sikhs now days. Then you will only have 50 years old videos to show how once sikhs used to look.


o comeone dude.. your people you showed me the video of looked like central Indians to be honest. we are Sikhs .. there were many who tried to turn us to something else before but failed n they will fail agains cause


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## Kataria

^


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> o comeone dude.. your people you showed me the video of looked like central Indians to be honest. we are Sikhs .. there were many who tried to turn us to something else before but failed n they will fail agains cause



Bhaiya is not religion but state of mind and face. Proof is you posted 30 years old video, seem like bhaiyas are already taking over.

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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Bhaiya is not religion but state of mind and face. Proof is you posted 30 years old video, seem like bhaiyas are already taking over.


yep that's true .. n now tell me who is whole heartedly accepting Urdu language in their state. bhaiya muslims have taken over Pakistan already and are ruling over you.. have some shame yara. you seem to be the only Pakistani Punjabi who have some self respect left seriously. r u jatt


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> yep that's true .. n now tell me who is whole heartedly accepting Urdu language in their state. bhaiya muslims have taken over Pakistan already and are ruling over you.. have some shame yara. you seem to be the only Pakistani Punjabi who have some self respect left seriously. r u jatt



Urdu is Pakistani language. Bhaiya is state of mind and face and sikhs are properly becoming bhaiyazed. I can't blame you, you guys make tiny tiny % of Indian population. Should have accepted Jinnah offer. Being muslims its our duty to protect and speak urdu.

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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Urdu is Pakistani language. Bhaiya is state of mind and face and sikhs are properly becoming bhaiyazed. I can't blame you, you guys make tiny tiny % of Indian population. Should have accepted Jinnah offer. Being muslims its our duty to protect and speak urdu.


Urdu is bhaiya language dude. it was developed in lucnow. I cant blame you either. you guys were alredy neutralized genetically by invasions and intermarriage. you can yet show some courage and accept reality and salvage those little Punjabi genes left in you. you probably think being slim, wide nosed and round faced is being Punjabi as majority are like that in your Punjab..no thanks our standards of beuty are different...my advise.. stop intermarriage and marry only in jatts.. real ones not fake ones..

lieing around in net is not gonna help either..


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> Urdu is bhaiya language dude. it was developed in lucnow. I cant blame you either. you guys were alredy neutralized genetically by invasions and intermarriage. you can yet show some courage and accept reality and salvage those little Punjabi genes left in you. you probably think being slim, wide nosed and round faced is being Punjabi as majority are like that in your Punjab..no thanks our standards of beuty are different...my advise.. stop intermarriage and marry only in jatts.. real ones not fake ones..
> 
> lieing around in net is not gonna help either..



I think you are projecting your own bhaiya frustration on us. I only knew one person who was jatt in that video because of name. In any case they all looked better then your kin some how. Round, soft faces are sikh speciallty. You guys are getting it from bhaiyas genes, i see lots of sikhs everyday.

Seriously even our chuhras have more sharp feutures compared to Indians.


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## Butchcassidy

save_ghenda said:


> Muslims janjuas and kamboh still exist but never heard of any Mohyal muslim. Maybe their numbers were very low to begin with compared to janjuas and kamboh. There is theory sudhans are mohyals.
> 
> MOHIYAL BRAHMINS : THE ANCIENT RULERS OF PUNJAB & AFGHANISAN - Punjab Monitor
> 
> And from what i have read Mohyals brahmins were similar to other punjabi tribes in a sense that they mostly married with in tribe instead of any brahmin before partition, this is true? There used to be big Mohyal comunity in Sialkot, maybe converted ones go by other names now days.


Sudhans are most probably mohyals bro, we have hindu sudhans also. 
Mohyals tend to marry amongst themselves specially hindu mohyals however sikh mohyals marry amongst the jatts and khatri.
Mohyals are essentially entirely from potohar plateau, before partition there were no mohyals on the eastern side of the border

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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> I think you are projecting your own bhaiya frustration on us. I only knew one person who was jatt in that video because of name. In any case they all looked better then your kin some how. Round, soft faces are sikh speciallty. You guys are getting it from bhaiyas genes, i see lots of sikhs everyday.
> 
> Seriously even our chuhras have more sharp feutures compared to Indians.


man you are saying just for the sake of countering my arguments in the thread.. inside your heart you know who looks like who. there not much of a difference between chura or jatt in your side of border.. both look similar. as I said its because of your intermixing with others or bad diet. it is very rare to find a Sikh with round face. Sikhs have a unique look which is not find anywhere else. people admire Sikhs and despise Pakistani Punjabi even your countrymen hate to associate themselves with your people.. dunno why you keep on spreading lies here.. just say it dude your people have lost it.


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> man you are saying just for the sake of countering my arguments in the thread.. inside your heart you know who looks like who. there not much of a difference between chura or jatt in your side of border.. both look similar. as I said its because of your intermixing with others or bad diet. it is very rare to find a Sikh with round face. Sikhs have a unique look which is not find anywhere else. people admire Sikhs and despise Pakistani Punjabi even your countrymen hate to associate themselves with your people.. dunno why you keep on spreading lies here.. just say it dude your people have lost it.



Ok what ever make you happy. But remember 20 years, i bet less

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## Dubious

ghoul said:


> If you're a native Punjabi speaker, can you easily understand it or does it sound too accented and "different"? What about Potohari speakers, can you understand this dialect easily?


Not too bad then again my family speaks kitchri  though i dont understand some words (thats coz I have bad vocabulary )


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Ok what ever make you happy. But remember 20 years, i bet less


as I said we Sikhs especially jatts are very endogamous.. nothing gonna change dude. you rather worry about few pure Punjabis left in your country.



Akheilos said:


> Not too bad then again my family speaks kitchri  though i dont understand some words (thats coz I have bad vocabulary )


@save_ghenda chk knock knock there are few who speak Punjabi in its pure form left in your country.. in less than 10 years your Punjabis gonna be done and dusted. and urdujabis will be everywhere


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## Kabira

Butchcassidy said:


> Sudhans are most probably mohyals bro, we have hindu sudhans also.
> Mohyals tend to marry amongst themselves specially hindu mohyals however sikh mohyals marry amongst the jatts and khatri.
> Mohyals are essentially entirely from potohar plateau, before partition there were no mohyals on the eastern side of the border



Yes there is a theory that Sudhans are Mohyals, in that case their population is pretty big. They are 2nd biggest tribe of Azad Kashmir after Gujjars with around 8 lakh population. I have stopped doubting anyone claim because anything is possible. Anyway now days Sudhans marrry freerly with pashtuns from what i heard.

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## Dubious

jatt+gutts said:


> few who speak Punjabi in its pure form left in your country.. in less than 10 years your Punjabis gonna be done and dusted. and urdujabis will be everywhere


Well I cant be taken as an example as I never studied in Pakistan...Pick someone @qamar1990


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## Butchcassidy

save_ghenda said:


> Yes there is a theory that Sudhans are Mohyals, in that case their population is pretty big. They are 2nd biggest tribe of Azad Kashmir after Gujjars with around 8 lakh population. I have stopped doubting anyone claim because anything is possible. Anyway now days Sudhans marrry freerly with pashtuns from what i heard.


How big is the jatt population there?


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> as I said we Sikhs especially jatts are very endogamous.. nothing gonna change dude. you rather worry about few pure Punjabis left in your country.
> 
> 
> @save_ghenda chk knock knock there are few who speak Punjabi in its pure form left in your country.. in less than 10 years your Punjabis gonna be done and dusted. and urdujabis will be everywhere



Punjabi is linguistic group, no such a thing as pure punjabi. Yaar you can't deny 30% of sikh jatts buy wives from Bihar because of obvious reasons. Thats why i am giving you 20 years. Save all the pictures and videos of gabru jatts you love to post in forums. After that i will keep providing you with west punjabi jatts photos because eastern ones will become bhaiyas.

Seriously you was my fav member in anthro forum when i used to troll insecure Indians. hilarious


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## jatt+gutts

Akheilos said:


> Well I cant be taken as an example as I never studied in Pakistan...Pick someone @qamar1990


there are many indian Punjabis who never studied in india n yet they are fluent in Punjabi. you are fluent in Urdu though right.. I always see Pakistani Punjabis who only teach their kids Urdu.



save_ghenda said:


> Punjabi is linguistic group, no such a thing as pure punjabi. *Yaar you can't deny 30% of sikh jatts buy wives from Bihar* because of obvious reasons. Thats why i am giving you 20 years. Save all the pictures and videos of gabru jatts you love to post in forums. After that i will keep providing you with west punjabi jatts photos because eastern ones will become bhaiyas.
> 
> Seriously you was my fav member in anthro forum when i used to troll insecure Indians. hilarious



where did you got those stats from.. jatts are endogamous. what you are saying is impossible. buying wives from Bihar.. lol lol lol lol lol lol  you are funny


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## Kataria

Why not talk about Haryanvis?


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## jatt+gutts

Kataria said:


> Why not talk about Haryanvis?


yara this is Punjabi gup shup going on..anyways you are welcome to add your views on the matter

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## Dubious

jatt+gutts said:


> there are many* indian Punjabis who never studied in india* n yet they are fluent in Punjabi. you are fluent in Urdu though right.. I always see Pakistani Punjabis who only teach their kids Urdu.


Well I am not even fluent with Urdu....

There are also many Pakistani Punjabis who never studied much in Pakistan and yet speak fluent Punjabi @qamar1990 and @RazPaK are good examples...


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## Butchcassidy

Akheilos said:


> Well I am not even fluent with Urdu....
> 
> There are also many Pakistani Punjabis who never studied much in Pakistan and yet speak fluent Punjabi @qamar1990 and @RazPaK are good examples...


haan ji how is ur phd going, did u publish anything?

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## jatt+gutts

Akheilos said:


> Well I am not even fluent with Urdu....
> 
> There are also many Pakistani Punjabis who never studied much in Pakistan and yet speak fluent Punjabi @qamar1990 and @RazPaK are good examples...


they are exceptions not the norm... majority speak Urdu.. no point in denying, I aint saying this just for the sake of making a point. this is a fact


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## Dubious

Butchcassidy said:


> haan ji how is ur phd going, did u publish anything?


 publishing has become a joke on me 

you are free to talk on the whatever thread...rules are a little more strict now 



jatt+gutts said:


> *they are exceptions not the norm*... majority speak Urdu.. no point in denying, I aint saying this just for the sake of making a point. this is a fact


 Nope not a fact at all.....How many Pakistani Punjabis residing out of Pakistan have you interviewed and taken your sample from?

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## Kataria

jatt+gutts said:


> yara this is Punjabi gup shup going on..anyways you are welcome to add your views on the matter



What do you think of Haryanvi Jats?


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## jatt+gutts

Akheilos said:


> publishing has become a joke on me
> 
> you are free to talk on the whatever thread...rules are a little more strict now
> 
> Nope not a fact at all.....How many Pakistani Punjabis residing out of Pakistan have you interviewed and taken your sample from?


almost every Pakistani I met were of the same mindset. I see them every now and then speaking in Urdu with their kids


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## Dubious

jatt+gutts said:


> almost every Pakistani I met


Maybe you need to meet from a bigger diverse circle


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## jatt+gutts

Kataria said:


> What do you think of Haryanvi Jats?


I think you guys are very strict regarding your culture and women and good simple minded person in general



Akheilos said:


> Maybe you need to meet from a bigger diverse circle


maybe.. prolly I will meet one some day if such Punjabis exist in Pakistan.. in my neck of the wood they are all urduwadis

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## Kataria

jatt+gutts said:


> I think you guys are very strict regarding your culture and women and good simple minded person in general



Yes. On the net, I have seen some Sikh Jatts talking shit about us lol. That's why I was asking. On this site this save_ghenda person calls Haryanvi Jats Chamars.


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## Dubious

jatt+gutts said:


> in my neck of the wood they are all urduwadis


then continue in your small world


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## Kabira

Butchcassidy said:


> How big is the jatt population there?



Jatts are only in large numbers in Kotli, Mirpur and Bhimbher districts of Azad Kashmir. Bhimbher border Gujrat, infact its only few km away from where our home is. No idea about current population but in 1901 census Azad Kashmir jats pop was 148.000, 83% of them being muslims.

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## jatt+gutts

Kataria said:


> Yes. On the net, I have seen some Sikh Jatts talking shit about us lol. That's why I was asking. On this site this save_ghenda person calls Haryanvi Jats Chamars.


yara to be honest people never really mean whtever shit they say in net.... save ghenda call me names too but he is some kid in teens I think


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## Kabira

Kataria said:


> Yes. On the net, I have seen some Sikh Jatts talking shit about us lol. That's why I was asking. On this site this save_ghenda person calls Haryanvi Jats Chamars.



I don't know why sikhs talk bad about you, hard to believe because lots of hindu jaats of Rajasthan and Haryana converted to Sikhsm and now days are known as sikh jatts.

Sikh jatt from East Punjab and hindu jaat from Haryana and Rajasthan sams thing. Right @jatt+gutts?



jatt+gutts said:


> yara to be honest people never really mean whtever shit they say in net.... save ghenda call me names too but he is some kid in teens I think



I never called you any names?


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> I never called you any names?



you called Sikh jatts as mirassis...scroll up same thread


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> where did you got those stats from.. jatts are endogamous. what you are saying is impossible. buying wives from Bihar.. lol lol lol lol lol lol  you are funny



Come on don't lie, i can post dozens of articles. Remember in 20 years when all bhaiya jatts become adult.



jatt+gutts said:


> you called Sikh jatts as mirassis...scroll up same thread



Kanjar khana is mirasi profession in real punjab villages, i though you knew pretty well this fact? So east punjabi jats are indeed in to kanjar khana, its not that there is anything wrong with it. But its what it is. I never called ''you'' any names?


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Come on don't lie, i can post dozens of articles. Remember in 20 years when all bhaiya jatts become adult.


I have never seen anyone married to bhaiya rani yet.. dunno where you getting those articles from. we usually marry other Punjabis if we have to marry outside the cast. either you believe me or you can believe in whatever bullcrp articles you read


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## Kataria

save_ghenda said:


> I don't know why sikhs talk bad about you, hard to believe because lots of hindu jaats of Rajasthan and Haryana converted to Sikhsm and now days are known as sikh jatts.
> 
> Sikh jatt from East Punjab and hindu jaat from Haryana and Rajasthan sams thing. Right @jatt+gutts?
> 
> 
> 
> I never called you any names?



Is there any genetic difference between Sikh Jatts and Hindu Jats?


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Kanjar khana is mirasi profession in real punjab villages, i though you knew pretty well this fact? So east punjabi jats are indeed in to kanjar khana, its not that there is anything wrong with it. But its what it is. I never called ''you'' any names?



do u even know what kanjar means... it means pimp and are you saying jatts are into pimping. now you getting on my nerves. stop it dude.


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## Kataria

Hindu Jats of Rajasthan, Haryana and West UP freely intermarry with each other.


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## jatt+gutts

Kataria said:


> Hindu Jats of Rajasthan, Haryana and West UP freely intermarry with each other.


that's prolly cause of same religion


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## Kabira

Kataria said:


> Is there any genetic difference between Sikh Jatts and Hindu Jats?



sikh jatts and hindu jaats look same so no difference there, @jatt+gutts knows better.


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> sikh jatts and hindu jaats look same so no difference there, @jatt+gutts knows better.


I know what you are trying to do.. kiddo


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> I know what you are trying to do.. kiddo



I am not doing anything, but you are not providing any input?



Kataria said:


> Hindu Jats of Rajasthan, Haryana and West UP freely intermarry with each other.



Yes and also UP, Haryana and Rajasthan hindu jaats used to marry freerly with east punjabi jatt sikhs.


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## jatt+gutts

ciao have a good night...gotta go now...never forget to spread Punjabi culture in your people.


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## KingMamba

jatt+gutts said:


> are you for real dude.. your side Punjabi are shorter darker and with less refined features with wide noses .. as you yourself showed in your video. maybe that is definition of good looks in your Pakistan.. lol  anyways what could be the reason you guys look so different.. is it because you mingled with bhaiyas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they don't look Pakistani at all



Last I checked you are the ones who kill your daughters and then import wives from Behar like I said to arya desa you guys are bhaiya hybrids.

I just came back from uni and there is a sikh in my class at first I thought he was a chura because he was so dark and his first name is John but then today he was wearing that churi you guys wear, imagine my shock to discover he was an Indian Sikh.


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## ghoul

xyxmt said:


> no they dont, those areas where hinko is spoken were so isolated untill 60s that they didnt know about anything some 100 miles away from them. My father told me they used to walk 2 days to get a bus for Pindi, I know people in my father's village would refer to their language as punjabi but when they met someone they didnt know and who spoke hindko they will refer to him as "addi boli bolna" meaning he spoke our language, so they considered it different than punjabi but didnt know what to call it.
> 
> One thing that I found common among Hinko speakers is they all eat black halwa (some call it sabooni halwa) and drink daal with it, they eat halwa till they cant eat anymore then they drink a bowl of daal to make more appetite for halwa. they f'ing eat it so much that some people died from over eating.



Lol. And never heard of the word "addi" before. You mean "saadi"? And I think you might speak a distinct dialect called "awankari" which associated with awans in mianwali and talagang. It is said to be highly hindko sounding. In Mianwali, I heard they call awans and awankari dialect "uttradi", which means "hill language" and "hill people". Are you an awan?



Akheilos said:


> Not too bad then again my family speaks kitchri  though i dont understand some words (thats coz I have bad vocabulary )



Never heard of that word before. Is it a dialect? I find all the hindko, seraiki dialects so intersting.


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## xyxmt

ghoul said:


> Lol. *And never heard of the word "addi*" before. You mean "saadi"? And I think you might speak a distinct dialect called "awankari" which associated with awans in mianwali and talagang. It is said to be highly hindko sounding. In Mianwali, I heard they call awans and awankari dialect "uttradi", which means "hill language" and "hill people". Are you an awan?
> 
> 
> 
> Never heard of that word before. Is it a dialect? I find all the hindko, seraiki dialects so intersting.



I thoughts you said it same as punjabi lol yes in punjabi it would be saddi
and yes I am an Awan form Awan land

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## Erhabi

xyxmt said:


> I thoughts you said it same as punjabi lol yes in punjabi it would be saddi
> and yes I am an Awan form Awan land



What's Awan land? I am an Awan too but never been to Pakistan so i m just really curious to know about them..btw are they nice people or what? one friend told me that there is a place called Awan pati too


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## Kabira

xyxmt said:


> I thoughts you said it same as punjabi lol yes in punjabi it would be saddi
> and yes I am an Awan form Awan land



Seem like in Kharian tehsil awan biraderi is 2nd biggest after after jatts. More villages then even gujjars. I didn't knew they were awans before because people call them just "Maliks". Villages names are Malki, Malka, Malik Pur, Pindi Awan, Bangial etc are awan majority villages.


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## Kambojaric

KingMamba said:


> Last I checked you are the ones who kill your daughters and then import wives from Behar like I said to arya desa you guys are bhaiya hybrids.
> 
> I just came back from uni and there is a sikh in my class at first I thought he was a chura because he was so dark and his first name is John but then today he was wearing that churi you guys wear, imagine my shock to discover he was an Indian Sikh.



"Pegged at more than 10 lakh in a city of about 50 lakh people, there is one migrant from UP or Bihar for every five Punjabi. ...

Like Ranjit Kumar, who calls himself Ranjit Singh these days, nearly 11% of people from Bihar and UP use Punjabi surnames. The 25-year-old, who came from Bihar to Sainian Bahurian village in Gurdaspur district to work in the farm of Mann Singh, is as much Punjabi as anybody around him.

Sukhram, too, is no exception. He came to Sunam in Sangrur from Purnea in Bihar, some 15 years ago to work for Mohinderpal Singh Dhindsa.

Now, with a beard and kara on his wrist, he is indistinguishable from the people around him in this nondescript town."

Punjab now a land of Bihari 'sardars' - The Times of India

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## Kabira

Bamxa said:


> "Pegged at more than 10 lakh in a city of about 50 lakh people, there is one migrant from UP or Bihar for every five Punjabi. ...
> 
> *Like Ranjit Kumar, who calls himself Ranjit Singh these days, nearly 11% of people from Bihar and UP use Punjabi surnames. The 25-year-old, who came from Bihar to Sainian Bahurian village in Gurdaspur district to work in the farm of Mann Singh, is as much Punjabi as anybody around him.*




Remember that article is 7 years old, things are lot worse right now. Thats why i advice @jatt+gutts to save all the videos of jatts with Pakistani roots in India.

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## xyxmt

save_ghenda said:


> Seem like in Kharian tehsil awan biraderi is 2nd biggest after after jatts. More villages then even gujjars. I didn't knew they were awans before because people call them just "Maliks". Villages names are Malki, Malka, Malik Pur, Pindi Awan, Bangial etc are awan majority villages.



as per Wiki:
It is asserted that Qutb Shah and six of his sons accompanied and assisted Mahmud in his early eleventh century conquests of what today forms parts of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Northern India. It is claimed that in recognition of their services and valour, Mahmud bestowed upon Qutb Shah Awan and his sons (who, according to tribal traditions, settled primarily in the Salt Range) the title of _Awan_, meaning "helper".[_citation needed_]

Tribal history holds that Qutb Shah and his sons married local women who converted to Islam from Hinduism. Qutb Shah’s sons are said to have settled in different regions of the Punjab and to a lesser extent, what now constitutes parts of Khyber Pukhtunkhwa; Gauhar Shah or Gorrara, settled near Sakesar, Kalan Shah or Kalgan, settled in Kalabagh, Muzammil Shah colonized the hills close to the Indus, Mohammad Shah (Elder son of Qutab Shah) or Khokhar,[4] settled by the Chenab, and Turi Shah ‏and Jhajh Shah settled in Tirah the descendants of Turi or Tori and Jhajh are also known as Syeds of Tirah.[_citation needed_] Their descendants not only came to heavily populate these regions, but a number of Awan sub-clans that trace their origins to these six individuals, give their names to various localities such as Golera in Rawalpindi,Malpur in Islamabad, Khewra in Jhelum, Bajara in Sialkot, Jand in Attock, and Dhudial in Chakwal.

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed_

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## xyxmt

Malik Abdullah said:


> What's Awan land? I am an Awan too but never been to Pakistan so i m just really curious to know about them..btw are they nice people or what? one friend told me that there is a place called Awan pati too



Kalabagh, attock, talagang, sakesar is where almost everyone is Awan. They are like any Pakistani good and bad but by profession they are farmer or soldiers, open minded and woman education is very common. I know in my father's village near Talagang there were more school going girls than boys. In our area Awan is also synonym with land owner. Big land owners usually use the Sir name Malak commonly known as malik. Malik will usually lease his land to harris who will cultivate different corps on it and every corp is divided as 1/3rd to Malik and 2/3 to Harri so its a very just system no abuse of harris like other places. Low crime areas because chances are every home have one of more in service or retired soldiers and the woman are beautiful

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## Kabira

Samandri said:


> I wonder if there is any link between malik/malak of pashtuns and awans?...Chief of clan is called malik/malak among pashtuns while in case of awans, it seems, is a general title like khan.



I know Malik pashtuns from KPK, native speakers of Hindko. I though they were awans and fake pathans. But now its clear many pashtuns also have malik title. Anyway their hindko is nothing like hindko songs or dramas. The reason is hindko dramas/songs use lots of urdu/persian/arabic words like standard Majhi punjabi of central punjab.

Otherwise proper hindko is lot more harder to understand for someone like me at first.

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## PakhtunGuy

jatt+gutts said:


> are you for real dude.. your side Punjabi are shorter darker and with less refined features with wide noses .. as you yourself showed in your video. maybe that is definition of good looks in your Pakistan.. lol  anyways what could be the reason you guys look so different.. is it because you mingled with bhaiyas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they don't look Pakistani at all



I don't understand.

These people in your video look like casual black Indians.


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## jatt+gutts

Tuchtoon boi u high on naswar or what.



save_ghenda said:


> Remember that article is 7 years old, things are lot worse right now. Thats why i advice @jatt+gutts to save all the videos of jatts with Pakistani roots in India.


There been people coming to Punjab for work. They go back in off season.


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## PakhtunGuy

jatt+gutts said:


> *Tuchtoon* boi u high on *naswar* or what.



Being racist again? Go drink your cow piss.

Seriously these people in your video look like casual Indians/Bangalis/Sri Lankans.


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> There been people coming to Punjab for work. They go back in off season.



lol

They are punjabis now, read the article. Bihari converted from ranjeet kumar to Ranjeet Singh.  Sikh jatts are mixed with biharis and hindu jaats of Haryana, Up and Rajasthan who look like bhaiayas. Even sikh jatts are not pure jats anymore. You also know sikh jats who live around Pakistan punjab border looks different then other sikh jats.


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## jatt+gutts

PakhtunGuy said:


> Being racist again? Go drink your cow piss.
> 
> Seriously these people in your video look like casual Indians/Bangalis/Sri Lankans.[/


 alright now run along learn punjabi first



save_ghenda said:


> lol
> 
> They are punjabis now, read the article. Bihari converted from ranjeet kumar to Ranjeet Singh.  Sikh jatts are mixed with biharis and hindu jaats of Haryana, Up and Rajasthan who look like bhaiayas. Even sikh jatts are not pure jats anymore. You also know sikh jats who live around Pakistan punjab border looks different then other sikh jats.


 buddy you guys look either half or full vedodids Why would u cAre abt Sikh jatt looks


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> alright now run along learn punjabi first
> 
> buddy you guys look either half or full vedodids Why would u cAre abt Sikh jatt looks



Keep telling your self lies


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Keep telling your self lies


Bro your people are beautiful specimen of beautiful mixed vedodids and pahari races. U seem to b proud of that. Yep vedodids have beautiful nostrils n air is too polluted in pak


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> Bro your people are beautiful specimen of beautiful mixed vedodids and pahari races. U seem to b proud of that. Yep vedodids have beautiful nostrils n air is too polluted in pak



I don't know why are you insulting people which are only found in India? Vedodids and paharis


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## jatt+gutts

Oxygen level is low in Pakistan or what


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## PakhtunGuy

jatt+gutts said:


> alright now run along learn punjabi first



Lol. Why should I learn Punjabi?


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## ghoul

xyxmt said:


> Kalabagh, attock, talagang, sakesar is where almost everyone is Awan. They are like any Pakistani good and bad but by profession they are farmer or soldiers, open minded and woman education is very common. I know in my father's village near Talagang there were more school going girls than boys. In our area Awan is also synonym with land owner. Big land owners usually use the Sir name Malak commonly known as malik. Malik will usually lease his land to harris who will cultivate different corps on it and every corp is divided as 1/3rd to Malik and 2/3 to Harri so its a very just system no abuse of harris like other places. Low crime areas because chances are every home have one of more in service or retired soldiers and the woman are beautiful



I think awans form the majority in Potohar. They are also found in significant numbers in Rawalpindi and Jhelum districts. Golra in Islamabad is an Awan village for example. In general they are respected people.

As for your "punjabi comment". When did I imply that the chakwali dialects were punjabi? :S And in the dhanni dialect(spoken near chakwal), "saada" and "saadi" are very common words. Talagang dialect sounds different.

And as much as I find this whole race trolling light hearted and funny, please do not derail the thread folk.



Malik Abdullah said:


> What's Awan land? I am an Awan too but never been to Pakistan so i m just really curious to know about them..btw are they nice people or what? one friend told me that there is a place called Awan pati too



There's no such thing as "awan land". Awans form the majority in Talagang and Attock, but not in the absolute terms. As for how they are as people; they are very highly represented in the army and are mostly zamindar. They have a martial character generally, like many other tribes of the Potohar region.


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## Kataria

Don't troll Hindu Jats @save_ghenda. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to do what you don't want me to do

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## ghoul

Kataria said:


> Don't troll Hindu Jats @save_ghenda. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to do what you don't want me to do



Do Sikh jatts intermarry with the haryana, up jatts, or do you guys consider each other different?


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## Kataria

ghoul said:


> Do Sikh jatts intermarry with the haryana, up jatts, or do you guys consider each other different?


No. We don't intermarry with Sikh Jatts. I think because of the religion but we intermarry with other Hindu Jats. The largest Hindu Jat gotra is Dahiya, followed by Malik.


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> Do Sikh jatts intermarry with the haryana, up jatts, or do you guys consider each other different?



Lots of sikh jatt actually have absorbed lots of Hindu jaats of Haryana, UP and Rajasthan because of east punjab border with Rahasthan and Haryana. But now days ofcourse they do not marry each other. I have no idea why @jatt+gutts is denying this.


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## KingMamba

Bamxa said:


> "Pegged at more than 10 lakh in a city of about 50 lakh people, there is one migrant from UP or Bihar for every five Punjabi. ...
> 
> Like Ranjit Kumar, who calls himself Ranjit Singh these days, nearly 11% of people from Bihar and UP use Punjabi surnames. The 25-year-old, who came from Bihar to Sainian Bahurian village in Gurdaspur district to work in the farm of Mann Singh, is as much Punjabi as anybody around him.
> 
> Sukhram, too, is no exception. He came to Sunam in Sangrur from Purnea in Bihar, some 15 years ago to work for Mohinderpal Singh Dhindsa.
> 
> Now, with a beard and kara on his wrist, he is indistinguishable from the people around him in this nondescript town."
> 
> Punjab now a land of Bihari 'sardars' - The Times of India



Bihari sardars.   

@jatt+gutts probably has a bit of bihari in him and he doesn't even know.

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## Dubious

ghoul said:


> Never heard of that word before. Is it a dialect? I find all the hindko, seraiki dialects so intersting.


Kichri is just slang for mixture...we dont speak a pure language

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## 45'22'

Akheilos said:


> Kichri is just slang for mixture...we dont speak a pure language


khichri

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## Dubious

45'22' said:


> khichri
> 
> View attachment 138795


yuck that looks too soggy


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## 45'22'

Akheilos said:


> yuck that looks too soggy


U haven't tasted the delicacy it seems


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## Dubious

45'22' said:


> U haven't tasted the delicacy it seems


I prefer Nihari

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## 45'22'

Akheilos said:


> I prefer Nihari


Nihari se yaad aaya....how is nawaz


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## Dubious

45'22' said:


> Nihari se yaad aaya....how is nawaz


Mujhay kiya pata....talk on whatever


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## jatt+gutts

Nihari khatay hai bihari. Bhaiya Muslim culture is mainstream in Pakistan.


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## RazPaK

jatt+gutts said:


> Nihari khatay hai bihari. Bhaiya Muslim culture is mainstream in Pakistan.






Your not a real punjabi. 

You probably don't even know what paya is.


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> Nihari khatay hai bihari. Bhaiya Muslim culture is mainstream in Pakistan.



Why you hate bhaiyas when they taking over east punjab is inevitable? It does not make any sense to me. I bet you have some bhaiya in you already and you don't even know it.


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## RazPaK

save_ghenda said:


> Why you hate bhaiyas when they taking over east punjab is inevitable? It does not make any sense to me. I bet you have some bhaiya in you already and you don't even know it.



I seen this dude take a shot at Pakistani Punjabis looks. Like 

Sikhs are dark and look like bhaiyas with beards. Only some of their older bazurgs look even close to Pakistanis. 

I've probably said this 100 times, but even my jat nokars are brown haired and green eyed, but this jatt gut is delusional.


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## Kabira

RazPaK said:


> I seen this dude take a shot at Pakistani Punjabis looks. Like
> 
> Sikhs are dark and look like bhaiyas with beards. Only some of their older bazurgs look even close to Pakistanis.
> 
> I've probably said this 100 times, but even my jat nokars are brown haired and green eyed, but this jatt gut is delusional.



Its interesting old sikhs especially closer to Pak border with Pak roots look like Pakistani punjabi in villages. But new generation seem to be bhiayzed to great extent. New gen sikh jats have lost rugged look associated with punjabi jatts. They will soon start looking like bhappa sikhs and after that proper bhaiyas.


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## RazPaK

save_ghenda said:


> Its interesting old sikhs especially closer to Pak border with Pak roots look like Pakistani punjabi in villages. But new generation seem to be bhiayzed to great extent. New gen sikh jats have lost rugged look associated with punjabi jatts. They will soon start looking like bhappa sikhs and after that proper bhaiyas.







sharp features mera L.

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## Kabira

RazPaK said:


> sharp features mera L.



Typical sikh look now days, as i said before those proper ghairatmand sikh jatts died in 84 in the hands of hindu baniya. After that long list of hijras were born like @jatt+gutts.

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## jatt+gutts

RazPaK said:


> Your not a real punjabi.
> 
> You probably don't even know what paya is.


Paya is Urdu word. Punjabi word is kharoray. Yep I have had kharoray soup many times. Big deal. We don't eat rice like you though. Maybe that's why you side punjabis are uglu


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## RazPaK

jatt+gutts said:


> Paya is Urdu word. Punjabi word is kharoray. Yep I have had kharoray soup many times. Big deal. We don't eat rice like you though. Maybe that's why you side punjabis are uglu



Put up your photo or gtfo.


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## jatt+gutts

R u into men or what


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## RazPaK

jatt+gutts said:


> R u into men or what



You are calling Pakistanis ugly. Put up your photo.

Or do you not have gutts?


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## KingMamba

jatt+gutts said:


> Nihari khatay hai bihari. Bhaiya Muslim culture is mainstream in Pakistan.



Nihari tastes great, you should try it but you might have to eat your ghao mata. Nothing wrong with adopting some culture from other people, we are even talking in English right now that is an adoption of gora culture as well. However you shouldn't insult the culture of Biharis because like I said you are probably one yourself.

Bara bolya asi jatta par asal vich bhaiya. Eh twadi halat.

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## jatt+gutts

Imagine the blue eyed kid in my profile pic will grow up n look like me



KingMamba said:


> Nihari tastes great, you should try it but you might have to eat your ghao mata. Nothing wrong with adopting some culture from other people, we are even talking in English right now that is an adoption of gora culture as well. However you shouldn't insult the culture of Biharis because like I said you are probably one yourself.
> 
> Bara bolya asi jatta par asal vich bhaiya. Eh twadi halat.


So u eat rice as staple food Lol. Dude right now I m eating out don't make me puke talking abt nihari shihari.


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## KingMamba

jatt+gutts said:


> Imagine the blue eyed kid in my profile pic will grow up n look like me
> 
> 
> So u eat rice as staple food Lol. Dude right now I m eating out don't make me puke talking abt nihari shihari.



Why would I imagine that? For all I know you took that shit off google or he is not even related to you. 

Nihari is not rice, is it 12 o clock over there right now?

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## RazPaK

KingMamba said:


> Why would I imagine that? For all I know you took that shit off google or he is not even related to you.
> 
> Nihari is not rice, is it 12 o clock over there right now?


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## jatt+gutts

KingMamba said:


> Why would I imagine that? For all I know you took that shit off google or he is not even related to you.
> 
> Nihari is not rice, is it 12 o clock over there right now?


As I said I don't care nihari shihari is not punjabi food n we don't like non punjabi stuff here. That kaka is my brothers son by the way


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> As I said I don't care nihari shihari is not punjabi food n we don't like non punjabi stuff here. That kaka is my brothers son by the way



, you guys like bhaiyas enough to marry their woman and let them take over punjab

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## jatt+gutts

Yea both of you try harder


RazPaK said:


>


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## KingMamba

RazPaK said:


>



This bhaiya is bashing nihari without knowing what it is.... 



jatt+gutts said:


> As I said I don't care nihari shihari is not punjabi food n we don't like non punjabi stuff here. That kaka is my brothers son by the way



I don't think you Punjabis even have a say as to what happens in Indian Punjab anymore. The land now belongs to the Biharis.

Punjab now a land of Bihari 'sardars' - The Times of India


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## jatt+gutts

KingMamba said:


> This bhaiya is bashing nihari without knowing what it is....


. I know Ek bakwas jehee meat curry hundi


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## RazPaK

KingMamba said:


> This bhaiya is bashing nihari without knowing what it is....
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you Punjabis even have a say as to what happens in Indian Punjab anymore. The land now belongs to the Biharis.
> 
> Punjab now a land of Bihari 'sardars' - The Times of India



baas jaan de oy. Maaf karde innu.

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## Judge

KingMamba said:


> This bhaiya is bashing nihari without knowing what it is....


Whatever be said whether nihari is good or bad, it is certainly not a Punjabi dish.


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## KingMamba

Judge said:


> Whatever be said whether nihari is good or bad, it is certainly not a Punjabi dish.



Pakistanis Punjabis eat some Bihari food

Indian Punjabis have some Bihari genes

Go figure


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## jatt+gutts

Judge said:


> Whatever be said whether nihari is good or bad, it is certainly not a Punjabi dish.


 I m eating out otherwise I would have told what it look like. Eww Can't type much wit phone


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## Rafi

My Sister in Law is indian Punjabi Sikh lass, all her relatives think that indian Punjab is totally fcked up.

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## Kabira

KingMamba said:


> Pakistanis Punjabis eat some Bihari food
> 
> Indian Punjabis have some Bihari genes
> 
> Go figure



Thats why his hate for bhaiyas is puzzling to say the least.

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## Judge

jatt+gutts said:


> I m eating out otherwise I would have told what it look like. Eww Can't type much wit phone





KingMamba said:


> Pakistanis Punjabis eat some Bihari food
> 
> Indian Punjabis have some Bihari genes
> 
> Go figure


First of all, Nihari is not Bihari food, it is from UP if i recall correctly.

Secondly, intermarriage from different regions is becoming very common in India with the rising economy and the resulting financial independence and social independence of the youth. You would also find Punjabis with South Indian genes as well as Punjabis with Caucasian genes in them. I also have the pleasure of knowing a Punjabi with North East Indian genes as well.

I find it quite admirable that this mixture is now happening in India and something that should have happened a generation back.

Unfortunately lack of good infrastructure everywhere in India(that eases life in a new city when one has to change cities for jobs, or ease of transportation) and a staid economy which generated few jobs...meant that back then youth were dependent on their parents to get jobs or 'sifarish' and to get 'settled'. This prevented the natural admixture of people from different regions of India on the scale it should have.

Today, a very high number of jobs like IT, Finance, Managerial, Operational sectors coupled with increasingly better infrastructure and ease of life in all major cites across India has changed that old situation rapidly.


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## Samandri

Malik Abdullah said:


> What's Awan land? I am an Awan too but never been to Pakistan so i m just really curious to know about them..btw are they nice people or what? one friend told me that there is a place called Awan pati too


You have very poor idea about your own awan people , never have been to pakistan yet you were talking against Pashtuns on behalf of awans on that kashmir thread. ?.When i told you that you are obsessed with pashtuns due to your past unhealthy obsessesion with pashtun girl, you denied it, but here is screenshot of your post.






@save_ghenda memory is good but it seems he wanted to kidnap kashmiri girl and was trying to hire killers to kill her brother. This psychopath must be arrested


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## RazPaK

Samandri said:


> You have very poor idea about your own awan people , never have been to pakistan yet you were talking against Pashtuns on behalf of awans on that kashmir thread. ?.When i told you that you are obsessed with pashtuns due to your past unhealthy obsessesion with pashtun girl, you denied it, but here is screenshot of your post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @save_ghenda memory is good but it seems he wanted to kidnap kashmiri girl and was trying to hire killers to kill her brother. This psychopath must be arrested




Luffy, pir se agaya beghairat.

How about you? You were saying on the Afghan forum how you and your Afghan friends would have sex with Punjabi women in fields. Gtfo khassi beghairat.

Smarty, dub ke marja sharam mein.

@farhan_9909 knows about you too, you Afkuni muhajar.

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## ghoul

Some well known Potoharis:

Khudadad Khan, the first victoria cross from south asia:





General(R) Kayani, ex-COAS of Pakistan:





General Zaheer-ul-Islam, ex-ISI chief:





Amir Khan, british Pakistani boxer:





Sir Sikandar Hayat, chairman of the unionists, a Punjabi nationalist party:





Rohail Hyatt, ex-vital signs member and former director of coke studio. He is Sir Sikandar's grandson:

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## ghoul

Shamad Khan, another victoria cross:





Sawar Muhammad Hussain Shaheed, nishan-e-haider of Pakistan army:





Muhammad Mahfuz Shaheed, another nishan-e-haider:





Raja Muhammad Akram Shaheed, nishan-e-haider:





Captain Raja Najam Riaz Shaheed, won hearts of millions of Pakistan in the swat operation. Taliban had decided to behead him along with his 3 colleagues after capturing him, but he along with his 4 colleagues sent 8 taliban soldiers to hell without any weapons.

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## ghoul

Babur Awan, politician:





Raja Pervez Ashraf, ex-PM of Pakistan:





Raja Zafar ul Haq, a high ranking member of PML-N:





Chaudhary Nisar Khan, current interior minister of Pakistan:





:Late Pir Syed Naseer-ud-Din of Golra Sharif:





Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan, a comrade of Muhammad Ali Jinnah:

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## ghoul

Sultan Raja Erij Zaman Khan, the spiritual head of the powerful Gakkhar tribe of Potohar:





Malik Atta Muhammad Khan, famous tent pegger and landlord of Kot Fateh Khan, Attock:





Sanjay Dutt, a bollywood actor from India, originally from Jhelum, Potohar:





Shoaib Akhtar, a cricketer:

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## Erhabi

Samandri said:


> You have very poor idea about your own awan people , never have been to pakistan yet you were talking against Pashtuns on behalf of awans on that kashmir thread. ?.When i told you that you are obsessed with pashtuns due to your past unhealthy obsessesion with pashtun girl, you denied it, but here is screenshot of your post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @save_ghenda memory is good but it seems he wanted to kidnap kashmiri girl and was trying to hire killers to kill her brother. This psychopath must be arrested



But i am very proud of being one..and that's why i want to know more about them. No doubt about that..my father is a great person and my grandfather was even better and there is nothing in our history to be ashamed of. if i go thru your Afghani history i see alot of blunders, foreign invasions,homosexuals, bachon k mujre rapes and its been going on since hundreds of years resulted in the birth of you and Afghanistan is atleast a century behind the world. and if you are so itching to get me in trouble. which is not gonna happen anyway. why dont you do something on your own?



Samandri said:


> You have very poor idea about your own awan people , never have been to pakistan yet you were talking against Pashtuns on behalf of awans on that kashmir thread. ?.When i told you that you are obsessed with pashtuns due to your past unhealthy obsessesion with pashtun girl, you denied it, but here is screenshot of your post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @save_ghenda memory is good but it seems he wanted to kidnap kashmiri girl and was trying to hire killers to kill her brother. This psychopath must be arrested



and now replying to your cheapness.. i dont talk to anyone's behalf. I speak for myself If i ll **** you doesnt mean an Awan fucked you..it will be ME who will be fucking you..meet me and that is exactly gonna happen and i am not obsessed with anyone. i was young thn..even thn i wudve fukd you. begairat nasal


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## Kabira

^^

Calm down guys


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> Babur Awan, politician:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nah:


Does anyone else see any resemblance?


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## ghoul

save_ghenda said:


> Does anyone else see any resemblance?



I don't see any resemblance at all. Who is he? And lol at his picture.


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## Kabira

ghoul said:


> I don't see any resemblance at all. Who is he? And lol at his picture.



Random awan.


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## Kataria

@ghoul none o those people will stand out in Haryana. Actually Haryanvis are known for being more robust. This @save_ghenda person hates on hindu jats and hindu north indians because he studied in a madrassa taliban school. In reality, he looks like a scrawny guy.


Vijender Singh - Boxer






Sushil Kumar






Sumit Sangwan






Dilbag Singh


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## Kabira

Kataria said:


> @ghoul none o those people will stand out in Haryana. Actually Haryanvis are known for being more robust. This @save_ghenda person hates on hindu jats and hindu north indians because he studied in a madrassa taliban school. In reality, he looks like a scrawny guy.
> 
> 
> Vijender Singh - Boxer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sushil Kumar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sumit Sangwan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dilbag Singh



Beta tag @jatt+gutts because he do not think jatt sikhs are similar to hindu jaats, at least the ones near Pak border while those near Haryana/Rajasthan border have mixed with hindu jaats. Anyway these photos are getting old (same hindu jaats posted in every anthro forum) and i can see why Hindu jaats do not look like punjabi jatts. Two completly different ethnic groups, only thing similar is similar sounding biraderi.

And lol at known for being more robust, by who? I bet its all in your head.


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## Kataria

save_ghenda said:


> Beta tag @jatt+gutts because he do not think jatt sikhs are similar to hindu jaats, at least the ones near Pak border while those near Haryana/Rajasthan border have mixed with hindu jaats. Anyway these photos are getting old (same hindu jaats posted in every anthro forum) and i can see why Hindu jaats do not look like punjabi jatts. Two completly different ethnic groups, only thing similar is similar sounding biraderi.
> 
> And lol at known for being more robust, by who? I bet its all in your head.



Those Potoharis that @ghoul posted look VERY robust? WHat are you trying to brag about? Most of them look scrawny and slenderly built.


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## Kabira

Kataria said:


> Those Potoharis that @ghoul posted look VERY robust? WHat are you trying to brag about? Most of them look scrawny and slenderly built.



I don't know what is your idea of robustness but haryanvis you posted look kind of ugly, see Amir Khan boxer who is also robust but not good looking. If Babur Awan is not robust (according to haryanvi difination of robustness) it does not matter because he looks cool and handsome with good features.


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## Kataria

save_ghenda said:


> I don't know what is your idea of robustness but haryanvis you posted look kind of ugly, see Amir Khan boxer who is also robust but not good looking. If Babur Awan is not robust (according to haryanvi difination of robustness) it does not matter because he looks cool and handsome with good features.



Babur Awan is the only one who kinda stands out in that group. But they will easily pass in Haryana. @jatt+gutts is also a misguided person. Talk real sense instead of prejudiced anti Hindu BS for once beta.


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## ghoul

Kataria said:


> @ghoul none o those people will stand out in Haryana. Actually Haryanvis are known for being more robust. This @save_ghenda person hates on hindu jats and hindu north indians because he studied in a madrassa taliban school. In reality, he looks like a scrawny guy.
> 
> 
> Vijender Singh - Boxer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sushil Kumar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sumit Sangwan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dilbag Singh



What the hell are you getting at? Most of these Haryanvis do not look remotely Potohari. And the people I posted are just famous people, I wasn't trying to prove a point or something. In terms of looks, the people I posted are very typical for the region.


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## jatt+gutts

save_ghenda said:


> Beta tag @jatt+gutts because he do not think jatt sikhs are similar to hindu jaats, at least the ones near Pak border while those near Haryana/Rajasthan border have mixed with hindu jaats. Anyway these photos are getting old (same hindu jaats posted in every anthro forum) and i can see why Hindu jaats do not look like punjabi jatts. Two completly different ethnic groups, only thing similar is similar sounding biraderi.
> 
> And lol at known for being more robust, by who? I bet its all in your head.


I wil b honest wit u. Sikh jatts are similar all over Punjab n have a unique look. Neither do we look Pakistani nor Hindu jats. Nope not even close to any borders. Don't make up shit on ur own. Leave us alone. Both of u r fine in ur own way


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## Sugarcane

jatt+gutts said:


> I wil b honest wit u. Sikh jatts are similar all over Punjab n have a unique look. Neither do we look Pakistani nor Hindu jats. Nope not even close to any borders. Don't make up shit on ur own. Leave us alone. Both of u r fine in ur own way



Except the fact that your forefathers used to be Hindu Jatts.


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## Kataria

ghoul said:


> What the hell are you getting at? Most of these Haryanvis do not look remotely Potohari. And the people I posted are just famous people, I wasn't trying to prove a point or something. In terms of looks, the people I posted are very typical for the region.



Ok.


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## jatt+gutts

Do


LoveIcon said:


> Except the fact that your forefathers used to be Hindu Jatts.


who knows what's the truth. We were once hindus. But today's Sikh. Jatt are different. As I say it doesn't mean we are BettR than anyone. We r different


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## terry5

45'22' said:


> khichri
> 
> View attachment 138795



mmm yummy

Gujar Khan in the house

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## Sugarcane

jatt+gutts said:


> who knows what's the truth. We were once hindus. But today's Sikh. Jatt are different. As I say it doesn't mean we are BettR than anyone. We r different



I am also not talking about of who is better and who is not but the fact is that your claim is idiotic unless you can prove that there was some special species of Jatts in Punjab who looked different from others and all of them suddenly converted into Sikhs.


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> I wil b honest wit u. Sikh jatts are similar all over Punjab n have a unique look. Neither do we look Pakistani nor Hindu jats. Nope not even close to any borders. Don't make up shit on ur own. Leave us alone. Both of u r fine in ur own way



See kataria even your sikh jatt buddy deny this, and sikhs jatts actually have absorbed lots of hindu jaats of UP, Rajasthan and Haryana. Genetic tests do not lie. Pure punjabi sikh jatts are only those with Pakistan roots.


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## RazPaK

These doabis must be out of their minds.


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## Kabira

jatt+gutts said:


> Do
> 
> who knows what's the truth. We were once hindus. But today's Sikh. Jatt are different. As I say it doesn't mean we are BettR than anyone. We r different



Beta you guys have lots of haryanvi, rajasthan and up jaats blood. Mixed punjabi jatt and hindu jaat is what gives jatt sikh unique look, thats why you guys look more and more like hindu jaats everyday instead of punjabi jatts.


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## ghoul

RazPaK said:


> Luffy, pir se agaya beghairat.
> 
> How about you? You were saying on the Afghan forum how you and your Afghan friends would have sex with Punjabi women in fields. Gtfo khassi beghairat.
> 
> Smarty, dub ke marja sharam mein.
> 
> @farhan_9909 knows about you too, you Afkuni muhajar.



Why do you even go to that forum? That forum has more hate speech than even stormfront.com. You shouldn't take those messages seriously. Trust me most of the guys have issues there. Like I mean where do you think the child victims of bacha bazi go when they grow up? I bet most of them go to the internet and start blaming punjabis, tajiks etc for the abuse that they had to go through when they were kids. 

And I thought this guy was a normal person. He makes highly bipolar statements on this forum.


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## Kataria

save_ghenda said:


> Beta you guys have lots of haryanvi, rajasthan and up jaats blood. Mixed punjabi jatt and hindu jaat is what gives jatt sikh unique look, thats why you guys look more and more like hindu jaats everyday instead of punjabi jatts.



you are converted hindu jaat if you are jat at all, which i doubt.


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## Kabira

Kataria said:


> you are converted hindu jaat.



Actually west punjabi jatts were pagans. I do not believe we have anything to do hindu jaats. This jatt shat are just labels. Because the type of very commonly found looks i have seen among our area jatts is not really found in hindu jaats or sikh jatts. West punjab sikh jatts were same before they moved there after partition and now are quickly being absorbed in to hindu jaats and sikh jaats.

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## Kataria

save_ghenda said:


> Actually west punjabi jatts were pagans. I do not believe we have anything to do hindu jaats. This jatt shat are just labels. Because the type of very commonly found looks i have seen among our area jatts is not really found in hindu jaats or sikh jatts. West punjab sikh jatts were same before they moved there after partition and now are quickly being absorbed in to hindu jaats and sikh jaats.



Hmmm. Jats are all of same stock but got mixed up with different people depending on where they settled down I think. Brahmins are a similar case. Rajasthani Brahmins are obviously different from say Punjabi Brahmins but they were of same stock originally.


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## Kataria

@save_ghenda I noticed that Brahmins are lighter than Jats in Haryana and Punjab. Brahmin girls are considered more beautiful because they are lighter and have softer cute features. Is it because Brahmins didn't work outside like us?


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## Kabira

Kataria said:


> @save_ghenda I noticed that Brahmins are lighter than Jats in Haryana and Punjab. Brahmin girls are considered more beautiful because they are lighter and have softer cute features. Is it because Brahmins didn't work outside like us?



I don't know about Indian brahmins that much, 99% of them look like typical Indians even if lighter because facial features are same. Like this common look among fair skin Indian sikh is not common at all among lighter skin Pakistani punjabis of our area. 







Pakistani punajbis with light skin give **** vibes like this jatt from sialkot


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## Kataria

save_ghenda said:


> I don't know about Indian brahmins that much, 99% of them look like typical Indians even if lighter because facial features are same. Like this common look among fair skin Indian sikh is not common at all among lighter skin Pakistani punjabis of our area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani punajbis with light skin give **** vibes like this jatt from sialkot



The first guy is decent looking.
What do you mean? This **** looks emaciated. Is this look considered attractive in Pakistan?  Explains a lot.


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## jatt+gutts

Kataria said:


> @save_ghenda I noticed that Brahmins are lighter than Jats in Haryana and Punjab. Brahmin girls are considered more beautiful because they are lighter and have softer cute features. Is it because Brahmins didn't work outside like us?


bro unlike rest of india Brahmins aint so big deal in Punjab.. actually all hindus are called bahmans in Punjabi meaning Brahmins..


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## Kataria

jatt+gutts said:


> bro unlike rest of india Brahmins aint so big deal in Punjab.. actually all hindus are called bahmans in Punjabi meaning Brahmins..



It's a stereotype in Punjab that Brahmins and Khatris are lighter.


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## jatt+gutts

Kataria said:


> It's a stereotype in Punjab that Brahmins and Khatris are lighter.


probably true because they aint land holders but mom n pop store holders mostly. but they are also stereotyped to be having larger faces.


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## Kataria

jatt+gutts said:


> probably true because they aint land holders but mom n pop store holders mostly. but they are also stereotyped to be having larger faces.



lol. Their girls have softer features.


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## jatt+gutts

Kataria said:


> lol. Their girls have softer features.


I prefer jatti looks though..


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## Marwari

I guess it depends where you are really. Rajputs in northern Rajasthan are taller and darker compared to Jats. Brahmins are always more fairer and almost always have sharper features compared to the other castes, mostly in areas like Rajasthan, Haryana, Jammu & Kashmir, Punjab and Gujarat


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## jatt+gutts

Marwari said:


> I guess it depends where you are really. Rajputs in northern Rajasthan are taller and darker compared to Jats. Brahmins are always more fairer and almost always have sharper features compared to the other castes, mostly in areas like Rajasthan, Haryana, Jammu & Kashmir, *Punjab* and Gujarat



rest I don't know but in Punjab they certainly don't have sharper features.. as I said all hindus are called Brahmin here. whatever cast doest matter.. Brahmin doest means hindu preists like south india.


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## Marwari

jatt+gutts said:


> rest I don't know but in Punjab they certainly don't have sharper features.. as I said all hindus are called Brahmin here. whatever cast doest matter.. Brahmin doest means hindu preists like south india.



The Brahmins where I'm from have sharper features than other castes, from what I witnessed. Also true, Brahmins from North India are different from the South. I guess in Northern India, they took up arms, especially in Rajasthan, Haryana and UP


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## Kabira

Kataria said:


> The first guy is decent looking.
> What do you mean? This **** looks emaciated. Is this look considered attractive in Pakistan?  Explains a lot.



Its not about attractive or not, i am sure you consider those haryanvis you posted better looking then the ones Ghoul posted. No need to be insecure . I am just talking about subtle differences i see between Indian punjabis and Pakistani punjabis on average in real life on daily basis here. And jatt+gutt is right about **** punjabis but he is to proud to admit the obvious truth, we indeed look different on average. He say we look like these NW Indian paharis who do not grow over 5.2 feet most of the times and have weak body types. He likes to think we look like groups which he hates the most like paharis and biharis.

typical Himachal pahari





These types cannot be compared to jatts. Even i am skinny but still 5'11 and 73kg.


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## Kabira

Marwari said:


> The Brahmins where I'm from have sharper features than other castes, from what I witnessed. Also true, Brahmins from North India are different from the South. I guess in Northern India, they took up arms, especially in Rajasthan, Haryana and UP



Indian Punjabi brahmins mostly have indo-brachid types and shorter body, they look different then sikh jatts with Pakistani roots.


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## Marwari

save_ghenda said:


> Indian Punjabi brahmins mostly have indo-brachid types and shorter body, they look different then sikh jatts with Pakistani roots.



Brahmins from Punjab (our side) vary from Indo-Brachid to Norindid and everything in the middle, the same goes for those living in Rajasthan, Gujarat and mainly UP/Haryana.


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## Kabira

Marwari said:


> Brahmins from Punjab (our side) vary from Indo-Brachid to Norindid and everything in the middle, the same goes for those living in Rajasthan, Gujarat and mainly UP/Haryana.



This is what jatt+gutt told me and he is expert on Indian punjabis. Because nord-indid is supposed to look like pashtun type with indic vibe. And no Indian look like that.


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## Marwari

save_ghenda said:


> This is what jatt+gutt told me and he is expert on Indian punjabis. Because nord-indid is supposed to look like pashtun type with indic vibe. And no Indian look like that.



You've obviously never been to India then. We've got a wide spectrum of races, ethnicities, languages etc.


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## Kabira

Marwari said:


> You've obviously never been to India then. We've got a wide spectrum of races, ethnicities, languages etc.



I know enough about Indian ethnic groups, if one can't find nord-indid in Indian punjabis then what hope is left for rest of India? Remember when i say Indian punjabis i am ignoring punjabis who migrared there from Pakistan who may still have some nord-indids from time to time.


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## Marwari

save_ghenda said:


> I know enough about Indian ethnic groups, if one can't find nord-indid in Indian punjabis then what hope is left for rest of India? Remember when i say Indian punjabis i am ignoring punjabis who migrared there from Pakistan who may still have some nord-indids from time to time.



You can find Nord-Indids among Punjabis, Himachalis, Haryanvis, Rajasthanis, UP, Gujaratis as well as Indo-Brachids including everything in between


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## Kabira

Marwari said:


> You can find Nord-Indids among Punjabis, Himachalis, Haryanvis, Rajasthanis, UP, Gujaratis as well as Indo-Brachids including everything in between



Seem like we do not agree on this nord-indid thing. True nord-indids do not exist in India because they look too much Indian everywhere. We need new classification word for Pakistanis.


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## Marwari

save_ghenda said:


> Seem like we do not agree on this nord-indid thing. True nord-indids do not exist in India because they look too much Indian everywhere. We need new classification word for Pakistanis.



It'd be stupid to say that most pakistanis are Nord-Indid as well. I would think only Pashtuns would be the closest thing to "true Nord-Indids". And you're wrong. There are no "true Nord-Indids" 

There are mixtures of mostly Indo-Brachids, Iranids as well as Dravidians. Mountain-Indids are also a branch related to Nord-Indids, which are found throughout scattered areas of Central Asia, Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, Nepal and areas of Afghanistan and northern pakistan


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## Kabira

Marwari said:


> It'd be stupid to say that most pakistanis are Nord-Indid as well. I would think only Pashtuns would be the closest thing to "true Nord-Indids". And you're wrong. There are no "true Nord-Indids"
> 
> There are mixtures of mostly Indo-Brachids, Iranids as well as Dravidians. Mountain-Indids are also a branch related to Nord-Indids.



Pashtuns are Irano-Afghans (actually we need new word here also because pashtuns don't look like Iranis but more closer to non-mongloid Tajiks). True nord-indid only exist in west punjab, i didnt say all of them are nord-indids. We need new classifications for Pakistani punjabi types if all these people you mentioned can also have nord-indid. Its clear nord-indids from different areas look different, thats why we need to invent new word.


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## cloud_9

Genetics in a Tourism thread,only on pdf.


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## Kabira

Marwari said:


> You've obviously never been to India then. We've got a wide spectrum of races, ethnicities, languages etc.



Btw i was trolling. There is not that much of difference between both set of punjabis, the reason? Both punjabs saw migrations in each other of different tribes, people. So usual punjabi tribes like khatris, jatts, rajputs, gujjars are similar. The big difference start when we talk about Indians who are not punjabis or now have mixed with other Indians in cities like Delhi, Mumbai etc

Also since west punjab is bigger, more people and different tribes. Plus closer to western part of asia, so there will be few differences.

Edit: Also you guys have abused this nord-indid word to much, proper nord-indid only exist in Pakistan punjab or some portion in Indian punjabis. And not in majority of populatio either.

Nord-indid one condition is proper fair skin which is not met by 99.99% Indians. Then we move on to other parts of nord-indid requirements.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

*The havelis of Potohar: Pakistan's opportunity to promote heritage tourism*

In the year 2000, I was invited by a fellow anthropologist to see the Katas Raj. The visit left me so mesmerised that I decided to explore the entire Potohar region. So over the past decade-and-a-half, I have kept travelling back to the region, documenting historic buildings and indigenous tribes, and returning from every visit even more amazed at the specimens of the architectural beauty in this region.

Every time I had a break from studies or official work, I rushed to Gujar Khan, Kallar Syedan, Sagri, Daultala, Sukho, Dora Badhal, Beval, Doberan Kallan, Hazro, Kot Fateh Khan, Qutbal, Harnal or Haryal to visit the wondrous temples, gurdwaras and havelis.






Haveli of Bakhshi Ram Singh at Kontrilla.




Havelis in Narali village.




A View of Atam Singh haveli at Daultala.
The distinctive features of Potohar's havelis have always attracted me.

These havelis belonged to Muslim, Hindu and Sikh notables. The word 'haveli' is of Persian origin, meaning a great mansion associated with wealth, status and size. In architectural terms, the haveli was merely a very grand version of the modern urban house.

A small list of the havelis in the small and big towns of Potohar include the Khem Singh Bedi haveli in Kallar Syedan, Atam Singh Gujral and Jeevan Singh havelis in Daultana town, Sikh and Hindu havelis in Narali, a haveli of Bakhshi Ram in Kontrilla, a haveli of Ratan Singh in Sagri, and several others in Gulyana and Dora Badhal villages.





Inscription in haveli of Bakhshi Ram Singh, Kontrilla.




Front facade of Jeevan Singh haveli in Daultala.




Children looking out from a window in Jeevan Singh haveli.




Haveli of Bakhshi Ram singh at Kontrilla.
Some of the common elements which stood out in all havelis were the 'jharokas', carved wooden doors and wall paintings, reflecting the taste and aesthetics of the builder. One such ornately carved door can be seen in the haveli of Dr Zaman in Basali village, Rawalpindi district.





An old man of Kontrilla who narrated the story of the Bakhshi Ram Singh family.
The jharoka held an important place with both the artist and the owner. These small, enclosed balconies were generally built on the upper floors, and used by both males and females.

Locals, including the present occupant of the havelis told me that the central jharoka was always occupied by male members of the family, while the flanking jharoka was used by the women. Chaudhry Sajjad Hussian, an oral historian in Gujar Khan, explained that the number of windows and jharokas indicated the affluence of the owner.





A window in Atam Singh Gujral haveli in Daultala.




Jharoka in Jeevan Singh haveli in Daultala.




Jharoka in the haveli of Bakhshi Ram Singh.
Then, there are the towers; splendid towers surmounting the top of the havelis. The most beautiful ones I have seen are found in the havelis of Bakhshi Ram at Kontrilla and in a haveli in Wah town. They were designed to offer a panoramic view of the town or village.

_Also read: Footprints: Soojhan Singh Haveli in ruins_

Passing through the narrow alleys of Kallar Syedan, one gets to the imposing Khem Singh Bedi haveli, which was turned into a school after Partition. I appreciate that the school staff or students have taken care not to defaced any of the figures decorating the haveli's interior. Most of the haveli's rooms are adorned with paintings depicting the Sikh Gurus, saints, Baba Sri Chand (the eldest son of Guru Nanak and founder of Udasi Panth) and Hindu deities.





View of Khem Singh Bedi Haveli at Kallar Syedan.




A painting inside the Khem Singh Bedi Haveli.




Another painting.




A depiction of the Golden Temple of Amritsar in Khem Singh Bedi Haveli.




Depiction of a Sikh woman.




A Sikh woman looks herself up in the mirror.




Another painting of a Sikh woman.
I often wonder why the government of Punjab is not making serious efforts to promote tourism in the Potohar region; the only known tourist destination in Potohar is Katas Raj.

Like in Rajasthan, where the havelis have been turned into hotels to promote heritage tourism, the Punjab government too should follow the same model and declare all the havelis here as heritage sites. Not only will that promote heritage tourism, it will also create more job opportunities for the wonderful locals of Potohar.


----------



## starbucks

Wow, very interesting thread overall and last post by proud. My father went to high school at Khem Singh Bedi's Haveli in Kallar Syedan. 

I am very interested in knowing how the Potohar was populated. There are a lot of different landowning tribes/clans in the area, and the history of how each came into possession of their land is wrapped in mystery to me. Is there anyone out there that is knowledagable about this?

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## Flash_Ninja

starbucks said:


> Wow, very interesting thread overall and last post by proud. My father went to high school at Khem Singh Bedi's Haveli in Kallar Syedan.
> 
> I am very interested in knowing how the Potohar was populated. There are a lot of different landowning tribes/clans in the area, and the history of how each came into possession of their land is wrapped in mystery to me. Is there anyone out there that is knowledagable about this?



Our clan (wont say which) has origins from Kashmir and my mothers side claims Rajput ancestry. There are many clans with roots out of Potohar (KPK, Kashmir, Punjab) but also many of those typical ones like Kiyanis, Gujjars, Janjuas, etc.

It is a melting pot so if anyone has figured out who owns what then I'd also like to know.

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