# Writings of Ben Gurion on Pakistan



## roadrunner

It's funny what sort of information can be gleaned off a white nationalist. But here's some, I'd like to see your comments about - anything, even regarding whether you think it's genuine or not. 

&#8220;_The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. &#8220;This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;_

-David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967: 

Do we have any Israelis here by any chance?

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## T-Rex

roadrunner said:


> It's funny what sort of information can be gleaned off a white nationalist. But here's some, I'd like to see your comments about - anything, even regarding whether you think it's genuine or not.
> 
> &#8220;_The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. &#8220;This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;_
> 
> -David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967:
> 
> Do we have any Israelis here by any chance?



You won't have any comment on this from the so-called peace-loving people of the west or the Indian subcontinent for it clearly shows who are the real terrorists. It is impossible for them to deny this news as you have mentioned the date of publication and the name of the newspaper. So, it is safe for the champions of human rights and democracy to remain silent on this thread.

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## roadrunner

It's an amazing letter. Difficult to believe it's true. Feel free to add more comments. I find it extraordinary actually.

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## Flintlock

Its quite a polar worldview.


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## Neo

> &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;



A natural alliance by common enemy? It hardly surprises me that they became allies as soon as the Cold War was over.


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## roadrunner

Flintlock said:


> Its quite a polar worldview.



Care to elaborate?


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## Flintlock

roadrunner said:


> Care to elaborate?



Well, he sees the world as "allies" or "enemies", nothing in between. 

He cannot see the various shades of gray. 

Or perhaps his job description doesn't require him to see shades of gray.


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## T-Rex

Neo said:


> &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;





> A natural alliance by common enemy? It hardly surprises me that they became allies as soon as the Cold War was over.



It should not surprise those who have their eyes and ears open, but your current President says India is not a threat to Pakistan, what are you going to tell him ?


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## roadrunner

Neo said:


> {quote]
> A natural alliance by common enemy? It hardly surprises me that they became allies as soon as the Cold War was over.



It makes one wonder whether Mujib was influenced by such Zionist schemes. Remember in 1967 that Pakistan included Bangladesh, only 4 years later there was the revolt that led to it's split. It could explain a lot about Balochistan also given that the BLA leaders' locations. So many people seem to be interested in the split of Pakistan - dismantling it into the 4 units - from the Indians, who succeeded in a way but made it more powerful, the Soviets who failed, and the BLA who are funded from multiple outside sources, who have as yet failed. It seems the Chinese are the only good guys in this.

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## T-Rex

Flintlock said:


> Well, he sees the world as "allies" or "enemies", nothing in between.
> 
> He cannot see the various shades of gray.
> 
> Or perhaps his job description doesn't require him to see shades of gray.



He sees the world as Ben Gurion made him see it, that's more appropriate. Are youn not going say how peace-loving Mr. Ben Gurion was, after all, his disciples live on and they are implementing his grand vision?


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## roadrunner

Flintlock said:


> Well, he sees the world as "allies" or "enemies", nothing in between.
> 
> He cannot see the various shades of gray.
> 
> Or perhaps his job description doesn't require him to see shades of gray.



I'd agree to that. But Zionism was more of a conspiracy, yet here we have alleged letters from Ben Gurion not only admitting to it, but instigating the dismantling of soverign countries thousands of miles away - through the use of the "penisular Indians" even.


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## Neo

*Indo-Israeli-US nexus ​*
Sultan M Hali

The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. This lover of Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, the enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans. ----David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister Jewish Chronicle, 09 August 1967

David Ben Gurion's words are still milk and honey to the Indians. *India had been courting the Arabs but colluding with Israel for many years.* Finally in 1992, under BJP pressure, the then Congress government in India established formal diplomatic relations with Israel. *It may be recalled that in 1992, cash-starved India desperately needed $3 billion in aid from the World Bank and the IMF that operate under strict US control. It was decided to mobilize the support of the Jewish lobby in the USA to secure the loans.* That is how Prime Minister Narasimha Rao became the first Indian head of Government to dump the PLO and openly court Israel according diplomatic recognition to Israel. Former US Congressman Stephen Solarz, who works closely with the Israeli lobby in the US and American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPC) has been guiding Indian lobby in the US. In June 1988, Mr. Solarz headed a delegation of Jewish leaders to India that met Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi. He handed over a memorandum to Mr. Rajiv Gandhi that called for India's recognition of Israel and the establishment of diplomatic ties. *Recognition of Israel was accelerated by the collapse of the USSR and halt in Soviet arms supply to India. But the tilt had already started when India voted with the US for rescinding a UN resolution that equated Zionism with racism.*

Vajpayee government shifted its focus from the Arab nations to Israel. The Asian Age commented that following the Israeli President's state visit to India in 1996 (the first ever), Israel had signed lucrative agreements with the Indian armed forces, including upgradation of India's MiG-21 aircraft and the ageing Jaguars, modernizing the electronic system of its aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, and replacement of Indian Army's 130mm gun barrels with those of 155mm caliber.* In 1996, the architect of India's missile programme, and later the Indian President, A.P.J. Abdul Kalam made his first visit to Israel.* *It is ominous that in May 1998, India exploded five nuclear devices, out of which, it is believed that at least one if not two were Israeli. *The Indo-Israeli nexus did not stop there but went a step further and tried to take out Pakistan's nuclear programme like the Israeli aircraft had successfully destroyed Iraqi atomic reactors in 1981.

In June 2000, Shimon Peres' on his visit to India was warmly welcomed by the Indians, especially after the Israeli foreign minister publicly extended his full support for India's bid for a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council. The Palestinian President Yasser Arafat was extended a cold shoulder on his visit to India a week earlier. *This is a far cry from Indian Independence Movement leader Mohandas K. Gandhi's declaration that: "Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code or conduct."*

Since 1992, the trade between the two countries has grown from $ 200 million to $ 1 billion and there are more than 150 joint ventures.* According to information gleaned from published sources, Israeli satellite Ofek-5 provide images of Pakistan's atomic and military installations. *Israel has delivered the highly advanced Green Pine radar system for Israel's Arrow anti-missile missile, three electronic tracking and command centers and the Rafael version of the Popeye cruise missile.

Jane's Information Group, the world's premier intelligence information source, ominously reported in July 2001 that* "The Indian spy agency RAW and the Israeli spy agency Mossad have created four new agencies to infiltrate Pakistan to target important religious and military personalities, journalists, judges, lawyers and bureaucrats. In addition, bombs would be exploded in trains, railway stations, bridges, bus stations, cinemas, hotels and mosques of rival Islamic sects to incite sectarianism."*

With Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's September 7-10, 2003 visit to India, a new chapter of Indo-Israeli collusion opened. Having failed to develop its own AWAC system, India decided to acquire the Phalcon Radars and install them on the Russian IL-76 aircraft. Thus a tripartite agreement was signed on October 10th at the Indian Defence Ministry involving Israeli and Russian defense representatives. In 2006 Indian Army Chief JJ Singh visited Israel and reviewed ongoing projects with Israel, ranging from mounting of Israeli TISAS (thermal-imaging stand alone systems) on 500 BMP-2 infantry combat vehicles and the massive upgrade of 300 T-72M1 tanks to the production of hand-held thermal imagers and LORROS (long-range reconnaissance and observation systems).

*Israelis supplied weapons from their operating units when India sought equipment at the height of the Kargil war in 1999. **The Indian Army has been using the Israeli manufactured infantry rifles for the past few years in Kashmir and the 750-km long anti-infiltration fence along the Line of Control is fitted with Israeli anti-personnel devices like thermal imagers.* The volume of defense business between the two countries can be gauged from the fact that Israel has already supplied Barak missiles to the navy, night fighting devices to the army and the air force, improving the radar network of the IAF supplying, besides hi-tech electronic warfare and information technology.

*US-Israel relations are deep rooted; after 9/11 India reoriented its foreign policy to accommodate the changing realities of international milieu and find a position in USA -Israeli camp.* The most striking commonality is their perception of Islam as their common enemy and *their common target is illegal acquisition of wealth and resources of the Muslim World.* US-India defense engagement has reached to new limits usually reserved for close US allies and friends, ranging from joint exercises in Alaska to sales of military hardware and sharing nuclear reactors, fuel and expertise. The ongoing acts of terrorism in Pakistan's tribal belt are being attributed to this nexus, which portends ominous results, and Pakistan needs to be wary of it as Afghanistan is being used to forward the nefarious aims of the nexus.

The writer is a retired Group Captain of the Pakistan Air Force

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## TOPGUN

This bastard is a simple example of hatered ! although we have nothing to do with Jews or there state nor have said anything against them or done anything as well .Furthermore, if anything the jewish state was planing to asset India to bomb and take out our nuclear faclities anyhow this is the hatered that this bastard and there state have against Pak our kind our religon and people this bastard should be shot dead he has got no right nor knowledge to state such things let them bring it we shall show them if they dont want peace then we shall show them in another way!!

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## Neo

roadrunner said:


> It makes one wonder whether Mujib was influenced by such Zionist schemes. Remember in 1967 that Pakistan included Bangladesh, only 4 years later there was the revolt that led to it's split. It could explain a lot about Balochistan also given that the BLA leaders' locations. So many people seem to be interested in the split of Pakistan - dismantling it into the 4 units - from the Indians, who succeeded in a way but made it more powerful, the Soviets who failed, and the BLA who are funded from multiple outside sources, who have as yet failed. It seems the Chinese are the only good guys in this.



Pakistan was weak in 1971 poorly equipped after the weapons embargo of 1965/66 and couldn't defend her left wing across 1600km of hostile territory but no one will succeed in taking Balochistan from us, not even Americans.


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## roadrunner

TOPGUN said:


> This bastard is a simple example of hatered ! although we have nothing to do with Jews or there state nor have said anything against them or done anything as well .Furthermore, if anything the jewish state was planing to asset India to bomb and take out our nuclear faclities anyhow this is the hatered that this bastard and there state have against Pak our kind our religon and people this bastard should be shot dead he has got no right nor knowledge to state such things let them bring it we shall show them if they dont want peace then we shall show them in another way!!



lol, calm down. Isn't it extraordinary for a head of state to be writing this? 

It's not that the Indians are/were allying with the Zion. It's the fact Ben Gurion found Pakistan to be such a danger to the Zionist movement - even more so than the Arabs! (Plus that he admitted to the zionist movement in the first place). BTW, shooting him won't do any good, he died in 1973, an ex prime minister.


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## roadrunner

Neo said:


> Pakistan was weak in 1971 poorly equipped after the weapons embargo of 1965/66 and couldn't defend her left wing across 1600km of hostile territory but no one will succeed in taking Balochistan from us, not even Americans.



The American adventure won't last with the financial difficulties. The average Balochi is pretty patriotic anyway, unlike the Sardar. Good people the average Baloch are, very loyal.

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## Neo

roadrunner said:


> The American adventure won't last with the financial difficulties. The average Balochi is pretty patriotic anyway, unlike the Sardar. Good people the average Baloch are, very loyal.



I've seen almost all districs in Balochistan, spent a lot of time with locals and never did I sense any anti-Pakistanism in them. Most people mind their own business, talked about little problems they face in daily life and asked me a lot of question about my city life and life in the west. Most of them...except for the students didn't know the history of Balochistan or how and why she joined Pakistan. They consider themselves Pakistani, most of them are born as Pakistani...indeed very patriot!

Anti-Pakistan Balochi community however lives abroad and I'm glad they've left Pakistan because they don't deserve to breathe "Pak" air.

So I'm confident that no matter what some seperatist leaders or landlords say, the Baloch will always support a united Pakistan. Its their "muluk" as they often reffer to Pakistan.

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## hasang20

we should invite Turkey.Iran.Russia and China to unite forces with us so as Saudi,Kuwait,Abu Dhabi,Syria because they know they are next and help us finanically to fight the "ISLAM WAR"


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## asaad-ul-islam

Neo said:


> I've seen almost all districs in Balochistan, spent a lot of time with locals and never did I sense any anti-Pakistanism in them. Most people mind their own business, talked about little problems they face in daily life and asked me a lot of question about my city life and life in the west. Most of them...except for the students didn't know the history of Balochistan or how and why she joined Pakistan. They consider themselves Pakistani, most of them are born as Pakistani...indeed very patriot!
> 
> Anti-Pakistan Balochi community however lives abroad and I'm glad they've left Pakistan because they don't deserve to breathe "Pak" air.
> 
> So I'm confident that no matter what some seperatist leaders or landlords say, the Baloch will always support a united Pakistan. Its their "muluk" as they often reffer to Pakistan.


yes! you will find that a lot in people who have left the country! your account should also ease all this tension in our minds of Pakistan splitting up, that will definitely not happen. Talk to any military personnel and they will tell you it's not as bad as you think it is. 

The whole entire situation is just being exacerbated by the media, politicians looking for another term and feel that they are the ultimate saviours of Pakistan, and of course, the west and india. india is in a more dangerous state, just look at how much territory naxalites control? the only difference is that the govt. and indian army don't give a damn.

*RoadRunner*
it's good to have you back sir!


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## Solomon2

Sorry, gang, but the London Jewish Chronicle wasn't even published on that date, but on 8/4 and 8/11. An archive search for 1967 doesn't turn up this quote, either. Maybe it's from some other "Jewish Chronicle", but I'd need more details to accept that.

In any case, the surest indication of the seriousness of such a statement is how, if true, it was acted upon over the last forty years. And in that time Israel has taken no action against Pakistan that I know of, save for Peres' statement a few years back that he prayed for the health of Musharraf.


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## roadrunner

Solomon2 said:


> Sorry, gang, but the London Jewish Chronicle wasn't even published on that date, but on 8/4 and 8/11. An archive search for 1967 doesn't turn up this quote, either. Maybe it's from some other "Jewish Chronicle", but I'd need more details to accept that.
> 
> In any case, the surest indication of the seriousness of such a statement is how, if true, it was acted upon over the last forty years. And in that time Israel has taken no action against Pakistan that I know of, save for Peres' statement a few years back that he prayed for the health of Musharraf.



Don't you think it was coincidental that Pakistan divided in 1971, following this alleged statement 4 years prior?

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## pkpatriotic

I found this artical/interview of historian Karen Armstrong is eye opening and related to the topic:

*INTERVIEW-Fate of Pakistan pivotal - historian Karen Armstrong* | Reuters
*By Simon Cameron-Moore*

ISLAMABAD, Feb 3 (Reuters) - The future of Pakistan, and how it balances the need for Muslim symbols with the secularism needed to run a modern state, will be important for the future of the world, according to historian and theologian Karen Armstrong.

Nuclear-armed and reaping the grim harvest of "extremism" resulting from the West's support for a religious war to drive the Soviet Union out of neighbouring Afghanistan, Pakistan has a big question to answer, says Armstrong.

"How do you become a secular Muslim state?"

Last Thursday, Armstrong, whose writings have highlighted the tolerant and pluralistic nature of Islam, met President Pervez Musharraf, who hoped to change Pakistan into a state where "enlightened moderation" prevailed.

Musharraf, who came to power as a general in 1999, has made little headway, according to critics, and his popularity has plummetted, while support for the United States has provoked Islamist militants into waging war in tribal areas of the northwest where al Qaeda leaders are believed to be hiding.

"Pakistan is on the frontier of this present struggle," Armstrong told Reuters during a visit to Islamabad to celebrate the golden jubilee of the Aga Khan, the spiritual leader of the Ismaili Muslim sect.

*"I think it is not so much important for the future of Islam as important for the future of the world," said the 63-year-old Briton, whose book "The Battle for God: Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam"* was released a year before al Qaeda's 2001 attacks on the United States.

*"What happens here will be very decisive in how the so-called war against terrorism proceeds in other regions."*

Pakistan, the world's second largest Muslim nation, has been locked in a struggle between liberal progressives and religious conservatives since it was carved out of the bloody partition of India in 1947 as a homeland for the Subcontinent's Muslims.

*Both sides try to interpret the words of Pakistan's founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah to suit their ends. Jinnah died a year after Pakistan, which then included modern day Bangladesh, was formed.*

*"The kind of conversations I have about this topic remind me very much of conversations I had in Israel, another secular state born out of displacement and tragedy."*

*Armstrong said Israelis faced a similar struggle between secularists in tune with the vision of their country's founder, David Ben-Gurion, and ultra-orthodox Jews, some of them militant.*

Even Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, realised the need to have a degree of secularism in order to run a modern state, she said.

Khomeini, just before he died in 1989, told mullahs not to meddle in defence and economic policies, she said.

*CORNERED BY SECULARISM*

The separation of religion in the state represents a modern, major change in societies where religion is a way of life.

When it happens too quickly, people feel threatened and if attacked through the media or by force, they become aggressive, said Armstrong, a former nun who describes herself as a "freelance monotheist".

*"Most of these extreme movements are rooted in profound fear, a fear of annihilation," she said, stressing that the same dynamics play out in Christianity, Judaism and Islam.*

"In small-town America there are Christians who believe they are going to be wiped out by a so-called liberal establishment."

During the interview, Armstrong cited the example of Sayyid Qutb, whose writings from an Egyptian jail in the 1950s and 60s helped craft a strain of Sunni Muslim fundamentalism that spawned the global jihad of al Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri.

People should study Qutb's texts rather than the Koran if they wanted to understand al Qaeda, she said. But they had to be read in the context of the torture Qutb suffered and his reaction to efforts to secularise Egypt, she said.

Attempts to introduce secularism, which took centuries in the West, has been done too quickly in the Middle East, according to Armstrong, resulting in religious movements that tend to become lethal if they occur in regions where violence is endemic.

Despite his fundamentalism, Qutb probably wouldn't have approved of bin Laden, according to Armstrong, who views the al Qaeda leader as "a criminal" rather than a thinker or ideologue.

Armstrong didn't see militancy in Pakistan's tribal lands, or Hamas or Hizbollah movements, or even bin Laden's al Qaeda, as being motivated principally by religion.

"They're a form of religiously articulated nationalism, religiously articulated identity politics", she said.

(Editing by Sanjeev Miglani)


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## A1Kaid

roadrunner said:


> It's funny what sort of information can be gleaned off a white nationalist. But here's some, I'd like to see your comments about - anything, even regarding whether you think it's genuine or not.
> 
> &#8220;_The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. &#8220;This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;_
> 
> -David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967:
> 
> Do we have any Israelis here by any chance?



I have produced a video called "The Day Pakistan and Israel Came Close to War" and I include the same quote you have in your post. I think my video would go well in the thread. If I may have the permission of the mods or admins may I please post it here. I really do think it will contribute to the discussion. My Documentary also contains footage of Israel's first Prime Minister David Ben Gurion...

*I would like to include this interesting article about how the MOSSAD and RAW are joining to Target Pakistan!*



"MOSSAD and India Spy Agency Team Up, Target Pakistan"


By Tariq Saeedi
Globe-Intel
5-19-2

"It is essential that we...*strike and crush Pakistanis*, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans." -- David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.

Janes information group, the world's foremost source on intelligence information, reported in July 2001 that "*The Indian spy agency RAW and the Israeli spy agency Mossad have created four new agencies to infiltrate Pakistan to target important religious and military personalities, journalists, judges, lawyers and bureaucrats. In addition, bombs would be exploded in trains, railway stations, bridges, bus stations, cinemas, hotels and mosques of rival Islamic sects to incite sectarianism*."

*Pakistani intelligence agencies also said that RAW *had constituted a plan *to lure Pakistani men between 20 and 30 years of age* to visit India so that they could be entrapped "in cases of fake currency and subversion and then be coerced to spy for India."

This was the high point of cementing an unholy alliance which began much earlier and which continues to tighten its noose around the neck of Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan and Central Asia.

It appears that RAW and Mossad -- either singly or jointly, either covertly or overtly -- have been making efforts to *penetrate sensitive circles of top echelon in Pakistan*.

It cannot be said with certainty but there are some reasons to assume that *Benazir Bhutto, the former prime minister of Pakistan, wittingly or unwittingly, played in the hands of RAW-Mossad masterminds*. She appointed *Rehman Malik as chief of the Federal Investigation Agency which then launched a secret war against the Islamists*; amounting to a *direct attack on the ISI*.

War against religious extremists could have been a laudable goal but it seemed to target only those elements which could have brought a semblance of moderation to the religious swatch cutting across Pakistan society.

Thus, leaving the field wide open for extremists.

It seems that the Pakistani military was equally dismayed by reports of FIA contacts with the Israeli secret service, the MOSSAD, to investigate Islamist terrorists.

One of the first acts of President Leghari after dismissing Benazir Bhutto on November 5, 1996 was to imprison the Ghulam Asghar, head of FIA, suspended on non-specified corruption charges. Rehman Malik, Addl. Director General FIA, was also arrested.

Whether these actions were triggered as a consequence of plotting by RAW-Mossad planners or whether it was an entirely internal matter, it is difficult to say.

Bhutto s visit to India last year at a time when Pakistan was going through one of the worst crises in its history, and her statements there which aimed to undermine the whole foundation of Pakistan, generate more than a flicker of doubt in analytic minds.

*The basic question arises: Who is Benazir Bhutto?*

Leaving BB to her own fate, let's return to RAW-Mossad connection.

*What is clear right now is that Indian RAW and Israeli Mossad are collaborating extensively to curb the freedom movement of Kashmir and destabilize Pakistan.*

The Indian newspaper The Pioneer wrote on March 3, 2001: Fencing of the Indo-Pak border is not enough. To check Pakistan-sponsored cross-border terrorism, top security experts of *Israel have suggested that hi-tech gadgets ranging from an electronic barrier system of radars to thermal imaging devices should be immediately installed on India's sensitive international border in J[ammu] & K[ashmir] and Punjab sectors.*

The team of experts, including officials of the Mossad, the Israeli Army and the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), also found shocking loopholes in the security arrangements relating to the much-talked about Samjhauta Express. They advised that instead of Lahore, the train should terminate on the Attari border. Sources in the Ministry of Home Affairs said the Israeli experts surveyed the 198 km international border in Jammu and Punjab and reviewed the route of the Samjhauta Express with top officials of the Border Security Force.

Subsequently, former DG of the Border Security Force, E.N. Ram Mohan was appointed as the consultant on border management. Mr. Ram Mohan has recommended that besides radars, aerostate balloons and FLIR equipment be used.

*India is keen to purchase surveillance aircraft (UAVs) from Israel to gain intelligence teeth*. The UAVs could also help the state police in keeping an eye in naxalite-affected areas of Andhra Pradesh.

For several years, Mossad and Israel's internal intelligence agency, Shinbhet, have utilised unmanned air vehicles to patrol the hypersensitive Gaza border.

Qutbuddin Aziz, former minister in Pakistan embassy in London, wrote an excellent article, titled 'Dangerous Nexus between Israel & India.' It was published by a prominent Pakistani newspaper on April 1, 2001.

Aziz writes: "Top secret details of Indian Home Minister LK Advani's visit to Israel in June 2000, show that the deals he has struck with the Israelis would make India and Israel partners in threatening the Muslim world with diabolic conspiracies to fragment and cripple it as a political force in the world. The details of his meetings with Israel's rulers, particularly the heads of the Israeli Home Ministry and its intelligence agencies, Mossad and Sabak, reveal that the arrangements he has made for joint Indo-Israel espionage operations in key areas of the Muslim world would make the Indian embassies in these Muslim countries the eyes and ears of the worldwide cloak-and-dagger Israeli spy network.

"Under the euphemism of 'counter-terrorism,' India is allowing Israel to establish a huge spy establishment in India which will, inter alia, unearth and monitor 'Islamic fundamentalist' individuals and groups for elimination by extra judicial process or by cold-blooded murder and kidnapping.

"The most important meeting Indian Home Minister Advani had during his three-day Israeli tour on June 13-16 was with the top brass of Israel's intelligence agencies in Tel Aviv. Heading the Israeli team was the powerful chief of Israeli police, Yehuda Wilk, with the heads of the Israeli intelligence agencies, Mossad and Sabak, and military officials dealing with Israel's punitive and espionage operations against Arabs in Israel, Palestine and neighbouring states such as Lebanon and Syria. Senior officials from the Israeli Foreign Office and the defence and home ministries attended this meeting. Israeli experts in bomb detection were also present.

"Mr. Advani's large team included India's highest-level spymasters such as the Director of the Intelligence Bureau, Mr. Shayamal Dutta, the Director of the Central Bureau of Investigation, Mr. R. K. Raghvan, the head of the Indian Border Security Force, Mr. E. M. Ram Mohan, Indian Home Ministry's powerful Secretary K. Pande who oversees the work of the infamous Indian spy agency, RAW, and liaises with the Indian Foreign Office in respect of undercover RAW agents working in Indian embassies abroad, and a senior officer of India's military intelligence agency (equivalent of Pakistan's ISI).

"In this top-level meeting in Tel Aviv on June 14, Advani reportedly thanked the Israeli government for its immense help to India in security matters and spoke of the dangers India and Israel face from their common enemies, i.e., Muslim neighbours.

"Advani, it is reported, highly praised the help provided by Mossad and army commando personnel to the Indian army in the war on 'Muslim militants' in Kashmir and against 'Muslim terrorists' such as the 'Memon brothers' of Mumbai in Dubai. Advani said he had, throughout his political career, advocated India's recognition and friendship with Israel and that his party had played a key role in forcing Congress government to have full diplomatic relations with Israel in 1992.

"He lauded the Indo-Israeli cooperation in the military, economic and other fields. Advani recalled that India had voted in favour of a US-sponsored motion in the UN for rescinding a UN resolution that equated Zionism with racism. Mr. Advani explained at length India's security problems in which the danger from Pakistan and Indian Muslims getting Arab money loomed large. Advani gave a long list of the special services in spying and the anti-insurgency devices and spy equipment India urgently needs from Israel to combat 'Muslim terrorism.'

"In the June 14 Tel Aviv meeting, the Israeli Police Chief, Yehuda Wilk, profusely praised India for its friendship with Israel and pledged help to the Indian government in combating 'Muslim terrorism' that poses new threats to Israel and India. The heads of India's intelligence agencies then briefed the Israeli side in the meeting on the ground situation in India in respect of 'Muslim terrorists,' especially in Jammu and Kashmir, and the new dangers coming up for India and Israel because of the Pakistani bomb and the fear that Pakistan may give its nuclear weapons to the anti-Israel Arabs.

"The Indian side showed a keen interest in learning from Israeli security experts how they had run the slice of Lebanon which Israel ruled for 18 years and gave up recently. Some information about the Israeli torture and investigation methods was gathered by the Indian side from the Israelis with regard to dealing with Arab dissidents within Israel and in the Palestinian Authority region.

"The Indians gave the Israelis a long shopping list of spying, torture and surveillance equipment such as electronic fencing of sensitive sites, laser systems, short-range rockets, eagle-eyed long distance snipers, observation blimps, giant shields, night vision device, unmanned aircraft of the MALAT wing of the Israeli Aircraft Industries Limited, special protective dress and gear for security personnel, cross border snopping devices and gadgets, training and deployment of spies and the special gear for them, use of computers and Internet for espionage and disinformation, code-breaking, tailing of enemy agents and their elimination, nuclear espionage, purloining state secrets of hostile countries and pooling them for the good of India and Israel and their mutual friends.

"The Israelis were interested in having access to the secret reports of Indian undercover RAW diplomats from certain Muslim countries of special interest to Israel (especially Pakistan, Libya and Iran). India is apparently willing to grant access to Israeli agents to the Indian Home Ministry's Central Intelligence Processing Unit (CIPU) in New Delhi. This was recently set up under Advani's direction with Israeli and US help. A handpicked RAW officer, trusted by Advani, heads this unit. Israel wants full access to its information data. The Indian government has already allowed access to it by American intelligence agencies now working with the Indian government on so-called anti-terrorist assignments.

Federation of American Scientists website comments on RAW in these words: "RAW has engaged in disinformation campaigns, espionage and sabotage against Pakistan and other neighboring countries. RAW has enjoyed the backing of successive Indian governments in these efforts. Working directly under the Prime Minister, the structure, rank, pay and perks of the Research & Analysis Wing are kept secret from Parliament."

Tarek Fatah, a Turkish scholar settled in Canada, wrote: "Britain's authoritative and respected defense publication, Jane's Terrorism & Security Monitor, reports that Israel and India have formed a military relationship and that Israeli intelligence is active in Occupied Kashmir.


"It says: Israeli intelligence agencies have been intensifying their relations with India's security apparatus and are now understood to be heavily involved in helping New Delhi combat Islamic militants in the disputed province of Kashmir...

Ed Blanche writes in Janes' Security on 14 August 2001: "Israeli intelligence agencies have been intensifying their relations with India's security apparatus and are now understood to be heavily involved in helping New Delhi combat Islamic militants in the disputed province of Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state which lies at the core of the conflict with neighbouring Pakistan.

"Israel has several teams now in Kashmir training Indian counter-insurgency forces to fight the dozen separatist guerrilla groups operating in the Indian-controlled sector of the disputed state.

"The exact extent of the involvement in Kashmir by Israel s intelligence agencies is far from clear, but it fits into Israel's increasing focus on events in Central Asia, and as far afield as Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim state, to counteract Islamic fundamentalism, which it perceives as a major threat.

"Shimon Peres, currently Israel's foreign minister, said during a visit to New Delhi in January 2001 (shortly before he took his current post in Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's coalition government) that Israel was prepared to co-operate with India to fight terrorism. Weeks earlier, an Israeli counterterrorism team, including military intelligence specialists and senior police commanders, paid a visit to Indian-administered Kashmir and other regions of the country that are grappling with anti-government militants to assess India's security needs.


If there is still any doubt as to the real intentions of Israel, then please see this statement issued by David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister. His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle, 9 August 1967, leave nothing to imagination:

"The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs.

"This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan.

"Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work therefrom against Pakistan.

"It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans. ____

We are grateful to Tariq Saeedi for permission to reprint excerpts from his special report that appeared first in The Balochistan Post, www.balochistanpost.com."

Source:Mossad And India Spy Agency Team Up, Target Pakistan


*I hope you guys will seriously take the time to read this shocking article.*


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## Vinod2070

India's relations with Israel are no different from many Arab/Muslim states including Turkey and Egypt.

There may be a relationship for defense purchases and it is no different than any other place where we can buy hardware from.

It has nothing to do with an alleged remark of a former Israeli prime minister dead for more than 3 decades.

India did not even recognize the Israeli state for decades and was the biggest champion of Palestinians. Even now we support nationhood for the Palestinians.

Even Pakistan wants to have relations with the Israelis! Musharraf tried to do that and could not proceed because of domestic opposition.

This is nothing but the Pakistani need to see conspiracies all around themselves to explain away all the failures and to be able to claim that mere survival is a great feat in the face of the conspiracies of the world.

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## Energon

Solomon2 said:


> Sorry, gang, but the London Jewish Chronicle wasn't even published on that date, but on 8/4 and 8/11. An archive search for 1967 doesn't turn up this quote, either. Maybe it's from some other "Jewish Chronicle", but I'd need more details to accept that.
> 
> In any case, the surest indication of the seriousness of such a statement is how, if true, it was acted upon over the last forty years. And in that time Israel has taken no action against Pakistan that I know of, save for Peres' statement a few years back that he prayed for the health of Musharraf.


I too would like to see the original source of this claim. My searches have turned up nothing so far. The only hits with references to this quote are fringe Pakistani blurbs heavy on propaganda and abysmally low on credibility. I think in order to actually initiate a meaningful discussion the source has to be validated and the article from where this quote was pulled has to be presented in its entirety.


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## solid snake

The world has changed much since 1967. Pakistan now has secret relations with Israel. Not relations per se, but dialog and assurances are exchanged, at the very least.


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## solid snake

roadrunner said:


> Don't you think it was coincidental that Pakistan divided in 1971, following this alleged statement 4 years prior?



The division of Pakistan was as a result of policies and treatment of West Pakistanis towards East Pakistani's, no other country of the world can be blamed for the creation of Bangladesh, except Pakistan itself.

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## Kharian_Beast

solid snake said:


> The division of Pakistan was as a result of policies and treatment of West Pakistanis towards East Pakistani's, no other country of the world can be blamed for the creation of Bangladesh, except Pakistan itself.



This is preposterous and furthermore, it is none of India's concern what is going on in the internal affairs of a foreign nation. A backwards 3rd world nation playing super cop with it's neighbors? Please. 

With the same reasoning, Pakistan can invade Indian occupied Kashmir, Gujrat and other areas of tension due to bad treatment by Indian forces and forced isolation by Indian government on Muslims and other minorities. Inshallah that day will come soon when we split India like Pakistan was split wrongfully in 71. The seeds of repression have already sprouted into rebellious foliage across India, a fire that can not be swept under the carpet is gaining momentum. 

India will have no one to blame, not this time.


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## solid snake

Kharian_Beast said:


> This is preposterous and furthermore, it is none of India's concern what is going on in the internal affairs of a foreign nation. A backwards 3rd world nation playing super cop with it's neighbors? Please.
> 
> With the same reasoning, Pakistan can invade Indian occupied Kashmir, Gujrat and other areas of tension due to bad treatment by Indian forces and forced isolation by Indian government on Muslims and other minorities. Inshallah that day will come soon when we split India like Pakistan was split wrongfully in 71. The seeds of repression have already sprouted into rebellious foliage across India, a fire that can not be swept under the carpet is gaining momentum.
> 
> India will have no one to blame, not this time.



India was our enemy and it took advantage of a situation we (Mohajirs/Punjabis/Pathans) had created in our Eastern wing. We are to blame for putting ourselves in that vulnerable situation, and if you do that, I can assure you that your enemy will take advantage of it. This is like repeatedly beating up your brother, and after he teams up with another bully to beat you back, you cry about it and say its unfair.

We ignored two very reasonable demands by our Bengali fellow countrymen, that of recognition of the Bengali language and due representation in the democratic process as their party had won the election. It was our racist attitude that cost us East Pakistan, and unless we learn to take the blame for our mistakes like a mature nation, we are in danger of further similar calamities happening to us.

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## Kharian_Beast

The last thing a mature nation does is place blame on itself. Yes West Pakistani leadership was to blame to an extent no doubts here, but to remove all the burden from India just makes one look like an apologist traitor, knowing that India has manipulated history and geography to their favour does not help your stance.


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## Patriot

Hes Former Prime Minster of Israel ?Head of state must have a head as a minimum..


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## solid snake

Kharian_Beast said:


> The last thing a mature nation does is place blame on itself. Yes West Pakistani leadership was to blame to an extent no doubts here, but to remove all the burden from India just makes one look like an apologist traitor, knowing that India has manipulated history and geography to their favour does not help your stance.



No offense dude, but you look like the product of a public school in Punjab using a history textbook from the 80s. 

Read DAWN and other papers, all political and social analysts of Pakistan agree with me. Like I said before, if you take your gloves off in a boxing ring, you will get socked on the chin, you can't blame your opponent for taking advantage of your own stupidity. 

If India withdraws its hundreds of thousands of troops in Kashmir tomorrow and leaves only 10,000 in place, and Pakistan invades and captures it, then they can't blame us, because they know we want it and therefore, they should ensure it doesn't happen.

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## Kharian_Beast

When will you understand that Kashmir and LOC is disputed, while East Pakistan was A GLOBALLY RECOGNIZED SOVEREIGN STATE DEMARCATED CLEARLY BY AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDER.

No offense either, but you look like a product of Bajrang Daal All-Girl's College.


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## solid snake

So? If we expected everyone to respect internationally recognized borders at all time, there would be little need for a military.


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## fatman17

Flintlock said:


> Well, he sees the world as "allies" or "enemies", nothing in between.
> 
> He cannot see the various shades of gray.
> 
> Or perhaps his job description doesn't require him to see shades of gray.



if you remember the history, pakistan sent some of its top pilots to syria and jordan to fight on their behalf v. the israeli air force with notable success, considering the pounding the arab airforces took at the hands of the israelis. what then do you expect the president of israel to say viz-a-vie pakistan. he aint gonna send us roses!!!

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## Flintlock

fatman17 said:


> if you remember the history, pakistan sent some of its top pilots to syria and jordan to fight on their behalf v. the israeli air force with notable success, considering the pounding the arab airforces took at the hands of the israelis. what then do you expect the president of israel to say viz-a-vie pakistan. he aint gonna send us roses!!!



I didn't know that Pakistani pilots were involved in attacking Israel. Was that the 6-day war?


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## fatman17

Flintlock said:


> I didn't know that Pakistani pilots were involved in attacking Israel. Was that the 6-day war?



both 67 and 73 yom-kippur war!
if i have the time i will post the history!


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## Flintlock

fatman17 said:


> both 67 and 73 yom-kippur war!
> if i have the time i will post the history!



Well then I guess that sealed the fate of Pakistan-Israel relations. 

Israel was anathema to the entire Islamic world! Its not surprising that they consider Pakistan an existential threat.

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## Vinod2070

Flintlock said:


> Well then I guess that sealed the fate of Pakistan-Israel relations.
> 
> Israel was anathema to the entire Islamic world! Its not surprising that they consider Pakistan an existential threat.



The attitude of many Pakistani members towards Israel is fascinating.

Many of the progressive members would like Pakistan to have relations with Israel (mainly to counter India) but see any Indian relations with them as some sort of conspiracy!

Strange but not unusual, given the fascination of the Pakistani psyche with myths and conspiracy theories.


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## niaz

T-Rex said:


> You won't have any comment on this from the so-called peace-loving people of the west or the Indian subcontinent for it clearly shows who are the real terrorists. It is impossible for them to deny this news as you have mentioned the date of publication and the name of the newspaper. So, it is safe for the champions of human rights and democracy to remain silent on this thread.




There is little doubt that Jewish State of Israels' foundation was based upon 1917 Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate of Palestine and terror tactics by Haganah.

Haganah was a quasi terrorist organization which engineered illegal Jewish immigration to Israel. One of its offshoots, the Lehi, assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister for the Middle East in1944. David Ben Gurian was the political leader of Haganah. 

I am not surprised at these remarks by a very shrewd and far sighted terrorist. Trouble is that in many cases Freedom Fighter and Terrorist are just different sides of the same coin. If you win as Israelis did, you are called a Freedom Fighter, if you lose; you remain branded as a terrorist.

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## fatman17

Solomon2 said:


> The Pakistani pilots who fought Israel in those wars fought as volunteers for Syria - that is, in support of the Assad tyranny. *They did not fight on behalf of the Pakistani state - not officially - but they did use Pakistan's aircraft in their battles*.



friend your statement is full of contradiction. pls check the official PAF history book for details.

in jordan they used jordan's hunters and in syria the syrians MiG-21's!


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## fatman17

Vinod2070 said:


> The attitude of many Pakistani members towards Israel is fascinating.
> 
> Many of the progressive members would like Pakistan to have relations with Israel (mainly to counter India) but see any Indian relations with them as some sort of conspiracy!
> 
> *Strange but not unusual, given the fascination of the Pakistani psyche with myths and conspiracy theories.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> i am not a international-relations expert but relations between countries take place for each-others-mutual gain.
> 
> i would assume the same for the indian psyche!


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## fatman17

Flintlock said:


> Well then I guess that sealed the fate of Pakistan-Israel relations.
> 
> Israel was anathema to the entire Islamic world! Its not surprising that they consider Pakistan an existential threat.



u reap what you sow so to speak!


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## roadrunner

solid snake said:


> The division of Pakistan was as a result of policies and treatment of West Pakistanis towards East Pakistani's, no other country of the world can be blamed for the creation of Bangladesh, except Pakistan itself.



You're welcome to this opinion. But it's not correct, and has been discussed on another thread. If you'd like to discuss it further, post on that thread. West Pakistan in actual fact made Bengali one of the official languages prior to 1970, money allocation on education was spent more on West Pakistan, but then West Pakistan had less schools to begin with. Bengal was more developed under British rule. This alone justified more Pakistani government investment. If you include private investment, it's impossible to stand by the claim of a bias against the East Pakistanis in any way. 

Which comes to what provoked East pakistan to split up. It was the propaganda blitz launched by Mujib that Bengalis were discrminated against, this in turn was given further impetus by external forces, presumably the Indians, and who knows who else.

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## roadrunner

Kharian_Beast said:


> The last thing a mature nation does is place blame on itself. Yes West Pakistani leadership was to blame to an extent no doubts here, but to remove all the burden from India just makes one look like an apologist traitor, knowing that India has manipulated history and geography to their favour does not help your stance.



I would disagree. I do not feel the West Pakistani leadership did anything wrong. Most of the leaders of the "West Pakistani" leadership, were East Pakistanis. 

It was all brainwashing and mind games by Muijb that Bengalis believe they were discriminated against.


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## roadrunner

Vinod2070 said:


> Many of the progressive members would like Pakistan to have relations with Israel (mainly to counter India) but see any Indian relations with them as some sort of conspiracy!
> 
> Strange but not unusual, given the fascination of the Pakistani psyche with myths and conspiracy theories.



That's simply your own conspiracy. Relations with Israel to counter India? What a joke. Israel won't counter anything for Pakistan. That is an Indian conspiracy. 

And the only conspiracy I'm seeing is Mumbai. There's good evidence for it.

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## roadrunner

Energon said:


> I too would like to see the original source of this claim. My searches have turned up nothing so far. The only hits with references to this quote are fringe Pakistani blurbs heavy on propaganda and abysmally low on credibility. I think in order to actually initiate a meaningful discussion the source has to be validated and the article from where this quote was pulled has to be presented in its entirety.



Nonsense. It's not on any Pakistani "blurbs". It's reported in many non Pakistani websites. Are they all wrong?


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## Vinod2070

roadrunner said:


> That's simply your own conspiracy. Relations with Israel to counter India? What a joke. Israel won't counter anything for Pakistan. That is an Indian conspiracy.
> 
> *And the only conspiracy I'm seeing is Mumbai. *There's good evidence for it.



Not really, you are seeing conspiracies all around you. From 9/11 to Obama's elections to Mumbai, the strange silence of the world media on the brilliant kalava theory, the international media and Kasab's father accepting the truth, UN banning the terror organizations, Pakistan arresting their leaders and freezing their accounts, everything is a conspiracy!

And your post doesn't make any sense. Try again.


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## Kasrkin

roadrunner said:


> You're welcome to this opinion. But it's not correct, and has been discussed on another thread. If you'd like to discuss it further, post on that thread. West Pakistan in actual fact made Bengali one of the official languages prior to 1970, money allocation on education was spent more on West Pakistan, but then West Pakistan had less schools to begin with. Bengal was more developed under British rule. This alone justified more Pakistani government investment. If you include private investment, it's impossible to stand by the claim of a bias against the East Pakistanis in any way.
> 
> Which comes to what provoked East pakistan to split up. It was the propaganda blitz launched by Mujib that Bengalis were discrminated against, this in turn was given further impetus by external forces, presumably the Indians, and who knows who else.



Other than that lets not forget that the Pakistani Army had essentially cleared the rebels from the country-side and the cities. It was the Indian Army that used PAs altered disposition to invade the weakened East-Pakistan, so technically the Bengalis didn't win the civil war, if it wasn't for Indian ARMY (and I'm not even counting their decades long propaganda campaigns or the train loads of rebels they pumped into our country before the invasion) there would still have been a 2 wing-Pakistan. We were to blame ofcourse, but that doesnt mean that Indian ambitions were not the primary reason it happened.

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## roadrunner

Vinod2070 said:


> Not really, you are seeing conspiracies all around you. From 9/11 to Obama's elections to Mumbai, the strange silence of the world media on the brilliant kalava theory, the international media and Kasab's father accepting the truth, UN banning the terror organizations, Pakistan arresting their leaders and freezing their accounts, everything is a conspiracy!
> 
> And your post doesn't make any sense. Try again.



Let's stick to Ben Gurion. And mainstream Chinese and Pakistani media have picked up on the Kalava, as have many of the blogspots (which tend to provide more neutral information than the mainstream). The story of "Kasab's" father is just a story. And I don't know if 911 is a conspiracy or not. I have seen a lot of things about Mumbai that point to one though. From the Kalava to the Hindi speaking, to the lack of evidence sharing.


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## Solomon2

> It's reported in many non Pakistani websites. Are they all wrong?



I traced it back six years to a rense.com post that referred to an article in the "Baluchistan Post", link now non-existent. 

And yes, thousands of people and articles can be wrong where one person is right. At one point, Copernicus was the only European who dared say the Earth went around the Sun, rather than the other way 'round...


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## GunMan

roadrunner said:


> Let's stick to Ben Gurion. And mainstream Chinese and Pakistani media have picked up on the Kalava, as have many of the blogspots (which tend to provide more neutral information than the mainstream). The story of "Kasab's" father is just a story. And I don't know if 911 is a conspiracy or not. I have seen a lot of things about Mumbai that point to one though. From the Kalava to the Hindi speaking, to the lack of evidence sharing.



Its sad that Chinese and Pakistani media have picked up on the Kalava,but missed the "Tilak" story.Only if u had gone through few indian news site ,u would have known about these SOB had drawn Tilaks on their foreheads to look like hindus.Its no coincidence or misperception that Kasab had kalava on his wrist ,but factually also correct and purely intentional in its sense.

According to Mumbai police, these terrorist had worn hindu symbols such as Kalava & Tilak to come across as hindus to avoid unwanted suspicion.In that way our pakistani and chinese friends are absolutely right.

But Sadly Kalava story ends there.With Kasab in custody feeling home sick and numerous other circumstacial evidence which are being probed with the active participation of FBI,sooner than later pakistani Govt will have to accept,pursue and arrest all possible pakistani leads with the terror attck.We have already seen some step taken by GOP in this regard.

You and other bloggers can always come around whenever its suitable for them.


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## Captain03

roadrunner said:


> It's funny what sort of information can be gleaned off a white nationalist. But here's some, I'd like to see your comments about - anything, even regarding whether you think it's genuine or not.
> 
> _The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans._
> 
> -David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967:
> 
> Do we have any Israelis here by any chance?



amazing post


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## Solomon2

London Jewish Chronicle Archive: link

Just type in "Pakistan" and choose "1967" and you'll see nothing like the quote turns up - and you'll see that the JC wasn't published on the alleged date. I think all other "Jewish Chronicle" newspapers are local ones devoted mostly to advertising, not politics. 

This "quote" appears to be an outright fraud. Why keep repeating it?

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## Vinod2070

fatman17 said:


> i am not a international-relations expert but relations between countries take place for each-others-mutual gain.
> 
> i would assume the same for the indian psyche!



That is true. I agree completely.

Indians don't claim Pakistan's relations with any country as a conspiracy. You do it for mutual gains and so do we.

The basic premise of this thread is that Indian relations with Israel are a conspiracy against Pakistan. I countered that by pointing out the relations of Muslim/Arab countries with Israel and also the fact that some people in Pakistan would themselves want to have relations with Israel.

Pakistan does not have to come in every single diplomatic calculus in the world. Those who assume so are deluding themselves and seeing ghosts where none exist.

It is simple really. India has no enmity with Israel. We support Palestinian nationhood and kept away from Israel for that for decades. It did not help the Palestinians one bit (as did the keeping away of most Muslim countries). There is no reason to permanently shun all relations on a single issue which you can't influence anyway by shunning them.

On the other hand both countries gain by establishing relations and India can play a more meaningful role as it can gain the trust of both parties.


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## Vinod2070

Solomon2 said:


> London Jewish Chronicle Archive: link
> 
> Just type in "Pakistan" and choose "1967" and you'll see nothing like the quote turns up - and you'll see that the JC wasn't published on the alleged date. I think all other "Jewish Chronicle" newspapers are local ones devoted mostly to advertising, not politics.
> 
> *This "quote" appears to be an outright fraud. Why keep repeating it?*



Since when have such niceties as the truth prevented some from repeating something that they would like to believe!


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## roadrunner

Solomon2 said:


> London Jewish Chronicle Archive: link
> 
> Just type in "Pakistan" and choose "1967" and you'll see nothing like the quote turns up - and you'll see that the JC wasn't published on the alleged date. I think all other "Jewish Chronicle" newspapers are local ones devoted mostly to advertising, not politics.
> 
> This "quote" appears to be an outright fraud. Why keep repeating it?



What makes you think it's the London Jewish Chronicle? 

I don't know if the quote is true anyhow. I'm seeing why so many websites are reporting it. It might have been pulled, or it might have been entirely made up.


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## Solomon2

"What makes you think it's the London Jewish Chronicle?"

It is the only "Jewish Chronicle" of note. The others are just local U.S. advertising rags. Even if Ben-Gurion spoke to them, his words could have no impact in Israel.

"I don't know if the quote is true anyhow. I'm seeing why so many websites are reporting it. It might have been pulled -"

Interesting, you confess you don't know if it's true, then proceed as if it is. There was no article to be pulled if the JC wasn't published on the alleged date! Yet you may have hit something: what is the thinking behind quoting something, then alleging it was concealed afterward?

In Muslim cultures it seems to be important to portray crime or aggression against non-Muslims as a justifiable defensive response. I suppose a little fib like faking a quote would certainly help . The earliest versions of the "quote" always contain this preface:



> If there is still any doubt as to the real intentions of Israel, then please see this statement issued by David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister. His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle, 9 August 1967, leave nothing to imagination:



So the avowed purpose of "citing" the "quote" is to establish _beyond any doubt_ that Israel is Pakistan's enemy. 

Think back, if you will, to those heady days of May, 2002 - the furthest back I've been able to trace the story, supposedly in the Baluchistan Post. Iraq had not yet been invaded, the Taliban and Al Qaeda had been tossed out of Afghanistan to hide in the NWFP, and it was Yassir Arafat who was stealing the Islamists' thunder by bombing Israeli civilians almost every day. What could be more natural for an Al-Qaeda seeking a new direction and renewed prominence than to attempt to compete with Arafat by shifting the struggle to Palestine and renewing its strength by drawing local Pakistani recruits into its ranks? The faked quote would thus be a necessary preliminary to recruitment, and if somebody happened to point out that there was no evidence of it, it could always be said that it was "concealed afterward".

After 2002, it seems the "quote" slept for quite a while, until July or September of this year. Perhaps it was revived then to provide justification for the upcoming attack upon Nachiman House? Certainly the "quote" was quick to appear afterward. I'm disappointed by how quickly it was seized upon by Pakistanis, and how nobody bothered to try to verify it until now. When one considers the gullibility of so many Pakistanis, don't you think it makes us ignorant Westerners look almost wise by comparison?


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## Solomon2

I am bhangee in disguise

****

I didn't post this. I just discovered today that A. Rahman is using my name to fake posts under my name. I do not know if he is the culprit this time.


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## Energon

roadrunner said:


> Nonsense. It's not on any Pakistani "blurbs". It's reported in many non Pakistani websites. Are they all wrong?


 Looks like it so far. It's usually not a very good sign when one has to scour bs websites to refer to quotes made by high profile heads of state.


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## Usama86

The Following is an excerpt from the interview given to Out Look India by Mark Sofer the Israeli ambassador.

Moving to defence issues, the Israeli and Indian armies have kept their interactions to a minimum but do you foresee the relationship growing to a point where the two sides would conduct joint exercises? If so you, do you have a timeline in mind?

Certain issues between countries do need to remain under wraps for whatever reason. I don't think the Indian authorities would be happy if we were to discuss in public. We have a burgeoning relationship and the defence relationship got a major boost during Kargil, when Israel came to India's assistance when India was in great need and brought about the turnaround in the situation on the ground. I think we proved then to Indian government that you can rely on us that we have the wherewithal. A friend in need is a friend indeed. I have been in India for four months and I hear a great deal of respect for Israel also on non-defence issues--agriculture, drip irrigation, high-tech. There is a groundswell of goodwill towards Israel among the Indian people.

Defence relationships between countries are generally secret and they should be. Certain facts are on the table but we don't make a noise about things.

www.outlookindia.com | 'The Secret Part Of Indo-Israel Defence Ties Will Remain A Secret'


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## k_arura

You may want to view this Section 1. Part 1 (Conspiracy Theories and their Rebuttals) « AA@Counter Terrorism, Imperialism, Extremism and Bigotry

> Rebuttal:

The independence speech of Israels first prime minster can be found on http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace Pro...claration of Establishment of State of Israel : Israeli Foreign Ministry.

The Original Recording: Proclamation of Independence :

Israels Legislative Body

THE JERUSALEM POST DAILY INTERNET EDITION : The Jerusalem Post (Leading Israeli Newspaper)

After reading the text of all these speeches and after carrying out a comprehensive research on all other speeches by all successive Israeli leaders since its illegal Palestinian occupation, it is hard to believe that David Ben Gurion or any other Israeli leader has ever made any such statement against Pakistan. There is no evidence of such statement even by any influential Israeli Analyst or think tank such as International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism.

The quote above or any such statement even remotely related to Pakistan cannot be verified by any Israeli supported (newspaper archives, editorials or articles) or by any Israeli military, government and civil society websites. It is not even mentioned or ever used against Israel even by the media networks of Arabs and the Palestinians such as Al Manar TV and Al Aqsa TV.

From my own independent research, I found out that Jacob Wallace, an expert on Israeli affairs and senior fellow at the Council on foreign Relations (A well known American think-tank), has never heard any such statement. Moreover, Pakistani analyst on Terrorism, Imtiaz Gul also doubts the validity of this statement. Some scholars I spoke with at the Quaid e Azam University Islamabad found it unusual why no one has ever heard of this highly offensive, public address.

If I closely examine the above quote then I notice a mysterious reference at the end that goes like this Jewish Chronicle, 9 August 1967

Now Jewish Chronicle is a London based newspaper that was founded in 1841 and is the oldest continuously published Jewish newspaper in the world.

Here is the website: The Jewish Chronicle - Jewish news, Israel news and social networking

Now lets verify the above quote from its 167 years archives: The Jewish Chronicle Archives

The above quote does not exist in the archives, which shows that it is a propaganda tactic of Pakistani establishment, Some Army elements, Nationalists, Religious scholars, Politicians etc.

The most unusual thing here is the published date of the newspaper: 9 August 1967. Whoever invented this quote had miserably failed to realize that this Jewish chronicle magazine was not even published on this date. In fact, this magazine has always been published on Fridays throughout its history and according to the Gregorian calendar, 9 August 1967 happens to be on Wednesday.


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## pkd

*David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister famously said; "It is essential that we...strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans". In the memory of David Ben Gurion Israel threatened to destroy the Kahuta Research Labs during the Zia-ul-Haq regime in June, 1981.

THE FIRST ‘ISRAELI PSYOP’ AGAINST PAKISTAN*
https://www.geopolitica.ru/en/article/first-israeli-psyop-against-pakistan


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## El Sidd

roadrunner said:


> It's funny what sort of information can be gleaned off a white nationalist. But here's some, I'd like to see your comments about - anything, even regarding whether you think it's genuine or not.
> 
> &#8220;_The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. &#8220;This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;_
> 
> -David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967:
> 
> Do we have any Israelis here by any chance?



Well Israel has certainly succeeded as Arab hate and Persian love is propagated in Pakistan

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## maximuswarrior

TOPGUN said:


> This bastard is a simple example of hatered ! although we have nothing to do with Jews or there state nor have said anything against them or done anything as well .Furthermore, if anything the jewish state was planing to asset India to bomb and take out our nuclear faclities anyhow this is the hatered that this bastard and there state have against Pak our kind our religon and people this bastard should be shot dead he has got no right nor knowledge to state such things let them bring it we shall show them if they dont want peace then we shall show them in another way!!



The Zionist is very sensitive and feels threatened by remote possibilities. The Zionist loves wild conspiracy theories.

Pakistan and Israel have nothing much in common. It is like Armenia and Nigeria. Yet the Israelis have an obsession with Pakistan. Just because Pakistan has good relations with KSA doesn't mean that Pakistanis love Arabs. We have a few people that feel drawn by a certain ideology within Islam i.e. Wahabbi sect. They are bound to show affection to the Arabs because many Arabs follow this particular branch of Islam. That doesn't mean that Pakistanis love Arabs.

This Ben Gurion got it all wrong. Something was not right in his brain.



Energon said:


> I too would like to see the original source of this claim. My searches have turned up nothing so far. The only hits with references to this quote are fringe Pakistani blurbs heavy on propaganda and abysmally low on credibility. I think in order to actually initiate a meaningful discussion the source has to be validated and the article from where this quote was pulled has to be presented in its entirety.



You need to get your head our of your rear. This is a well documented fact. Now show us your flags.



Flintlock said:


> I didn't know that Pakistani pilots were involved in attacking Israel. Was that the 6-day war?



This guy doesn't even grasp basic facts and is arguing in this thread LOL I am amazed at these foreigners polluting PDF and pretending to be historians.



Flintlock said:


> Well then I guess that sealed the fate of Pakistan-Israel relations.
> 
> Israel was anathema to the entire Islamic world! Its not surprising that they consider Pakistan an existential threat.



What are they going to do about it apart from sucking up to India? I assume the nasty rape nation that you belong to.



k_arura said:


> You may want to view this Section 1. Part 1 (Conspiracy Theories and their Rebuttals) « AA@Counter Terrorism, Imperialism, Extremism and Bigotry
> 
> > Rebuttal:
> 
> The independence speech of Israels first prime minster can be found on http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace Process/Guide to the Peace Process/Declaration of Establishment of State of Israel : Israeli Foreign Ministry.
> 
> The Original Recording: Proclamation of Independence :
> 
> Israels Legislative Body
> 
> THE JERUSALEM POST DAILY INTERNET EDITION : The Jerusalem Post (Leading Israeli Newspaper)
> 
> After reading the text of all these speeches and after carrying out a comprehensive research on all other speeches by all successive Israeli leaders since its illegal Palestinian occupation, it is hard to believe that David Ben Gurion or any other Israeli leader has ever made any such statement against Pakistan. There is no evidence of such statement even by any influential Israeli Analyst or think tank such as International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism.
> 
> The quote above or any such statement even remotely related to Pakistan cannot be verified by any Israeli supported (newspaper archives, editorials or articles) or by any Israeli military, government and civil society websites. It is not even mentioned or ever used against Israel even by the media networks of Arabs and the Palestinians such as Al Manar TV and Al Aqsa TV.
> 
> From my own independent research, I found out that Jacob Wallace, an expert on Israeli affairs and senior fellow at the Council on foreign Relations (A well known American think-tank), has never heard any such statement. Moreover, Pakistani analyst on Terrorism, Imtiaz Gul also doubts the validity of this statement. Some scholars I spoke with at the Quaid e Azam University Islamabad found it unusual why no one has ever heard of this highly offensive, public address.
> 
> If I closely examine the above quote then I notice a mysterious reference at the end that goes like this Jewish Chronicle, 9 August 1967
> 
> Now Jewish Chronicle is a London based newspaper that was founded in 1841 and is the oldest continuously published Jewish newspaper in the world.
> 
> Here is the website: The Jewish Chronicle - Jewish news, Israel news and social networking
> 
> Now lets verify the above quote from its 167 years archives: The Jewish Chronicle Archives
> 
> The above quote does not exist in the archives, which shows that it is a propaganda tactic of Pakistani establishment, Some Army elements, Nationalists, Religious scholars, Politicians etc.
> 
> The most unusual thing here is the published date of the newspaper: 9 August 1967. Whoever invented this quote had miserably failed to realize that this Jewish chronicle magazine was not even published on this date. In fact, this magazine has always been published on Fridays throughout its history and according to the Gregorian calendar, 9 August 1967 happens to be on Wednesday.



There is nothing secret about these remarks made by the Zionist and they are well documented.

It is a given that Zionist Israel feels insecure and threatened by the very existence of Pakistan. There is a reason why Israel is aiding India against Pakistan. This hatred against Pakistan stems from Zionist conspiracy theories. Just like the promised land conspiracy is supposed to give land to European settlers in a desert.

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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> Well Israel has certainly succeeded as Arab hate and Persian love is propagated in Pakistan


Do you have documented evidence for this?


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## Mentee

I believe if our paf volunteers of Arab Israeli wars had a bit of an idea about the future happenstances. They might have called it a day - - - - - - -.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> Do you have documented evidence for this?



This is Documented. Ask around, observe and deduce


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## W.11

roadrunner said:


> It's funny what sort of information can be gleaned off a white nationalist. But here's some, I'd like to see your comments about - anything, even regarding whether you think it's genuine or not.
> 
> &#8220;_The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. &#8220;This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;_
> 
> -David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967:
> 
> Do we have any Israelis here by any chance?



if you ask most of the israelis now, they are atheists who dont want to remain in the hell hole israel has become, a security state in perpetual state of war in the region. Pakistan since immy is cozin up to the very same jews who faced ''existential crises'' due to ideological pakistan and wanted to exploit the hindu nationalists or the hindutva. the same arabs have now allied with israel to counter iran. seem the words of ben gurion was spoken in light on pakistani PAF help to jordan etc but since then that country has also accepted israel. Dont see much foresight into his statements. The guy seems extremely confused, at first highlights religion i-e muslims, hindus and then propagates arabs which is an ethnicity not religious group etc.

The hindu jew love affair can be felt from this video alone, also read comment section to get some extra entertainment






regards


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

A picture says a thousand words....


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> This is Documented. Ask around, observe and deduce


Got it. No evidence.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> Got it. No evidence.



look around its there


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## Trango Towers

roadrunner said:


> It's funny what sort of information can be gleaned off a white nationalist. But here's some, I'd like to see your comments about - anything, even regarding whether you think it's genuine or not.
> 
> &#8220;_The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. &#8220;This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;_
> 
> -David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967:
> 
> Do we have any Israelis here by any chance?



Alhumdulillah...Pakistan is free and strong and still hates the Zionist terrorists. State of israel created out of terror and even today is rampant in its efforts of institutional racism and genocide of the local arab population. As for the indians.....would u like a cup of tea?

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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> look around its there



Understood. No documented evidence presented.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> Understood. No documented evidence presented.



observation is documented


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> observation is documented



Understood. It's is not documented anywhere.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> Understood. It's is not documented anywhere.



history is documented in the future not in the present


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> history is documented in the future not in the present



Understood. You have no documented evidence for your assertions.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> You have no documented evidence for your assertions



none whatsoever.

You can degrade it to postulation


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## dani92

Fairytales


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> none whatsoever.
> 
> You can degrade it to postulation



Understood. You have nothing to present as documented evidence.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> Understood. You have nothing to present as documented evidence.



absolutely nothing as evidence can be presented by me


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> absolutely nothing as evidence can be presented by me



that has been established. you have nothing to provide for evidence therefore your assertions are false.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> that has been established. you have nothing to provide for evidence therefore your assertions are false.



that is your opinion. do you have any documented evidence that what i postulate is false?


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> that is your opinion. do you have any documented evidence that what i postulate is false?



The one who makes the assertion has to provide evidence first. 

For example, I could say that your mother is a filthy disease ridden whore without any evidence. You can then ask, do I have evidence if Retired Troll's mother is a filthy disease ridden whore? 

Would it then be appropriate if I asked if you have evidence that your mother is NOT a filthy disease ridden whore? That would not be appropriate.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> The one who makes the assertion has to provide evidence first.



This is not a legally binding assertion. 

It can best be described as a theory based on observations which will be documented as history in the future.


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> This is not a legally binding assertion.
> 
> It can best be described as a theory based on observations which will be documented as history in the future.



It's not legally binding, I never said it was. Usually one presents evidence if making an assertion, which you have yet to do. But you claim you do not, therefore your assertions are thus far, false.

However, your mythical observations are not even presented.


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> It's not legally binding, I never said it was. Usually one presents evidence if making an assertion, which you have yet to do. But you claim you do not, therefore your assertions are thus far, false.
> 
> However, your mythical observations are not even presented.



Most right wing media in Pakistan blames the Arabs and cites end of times prophecy for destruction of Arabs.

It also propagates some prophecies of Persians helping conquer Hind.

Meanwhile it is also propagated that Arabs have forsaken religion adding in the religious card in the mix.

You can counter these claims academically while keeping your mother out of it.


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> Most right wing media in Pakistan blames the Arabs and cites end of times prophecy for destruction of Arabs.
> 
> It also propagates some prophecies of Persians helping conquer Hind.
> 
> Meanwhile it is also propagated that Arabs have forsaken religion adding in the religious card in the mix.
> 
> You can counter these claims academically while keeping your mother out of it.



Finally! It only took 50 posts (including one of your mother) to get here 

Do you have links? Video clips?

I'm not really interested to debunk religious fairy tales as I don't take religion seriously. But I am interested in right wing mullah media and what they are saying. Do you have any names of these right wing media personalities?

Ok so Persians will help conquer India in the future? Did Prophet Muhammad assert this? I have never heard this from any Pakistani. And also, maybe Prophet is referring to Pakistanis here, but since there was no Pakistan at that time, maybe Prophet said Persians instead. 

Arabs forsaking religion? That's very vague statement. What does that even mean? Sure maybe some Arabs have, but not all certainly. Most Arabs are not atheist and still pray, fast, etc.

Let's assume that the destruction of the Arabs is a central part of Islamic prophecy (it's probably not) and that all Pakistanis will eventually believe in it (they probably will never). Is that really a bad thing to believe in if it's part of your belief system?


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> Finally! It only took 50 posts (including one of your mother) to get here
> 
> Do you have links? Video clips?
> 
> I'm not really interested to debunk religious fairy tales as I don't take religion seriously. But I am interested in right wing mullah media and what they are saying. Do you have any names of these right wing media personalities?
> 
> Ok so Persians will help conquer India in the future? Did Prophet Muhammad assert this? I have never heard this from any Pakistani. And also, maybe Prophet is referring to Pakistanis here, but since there was no Pakistan at that time, maybe Prophet said Persians instead.
> 
> Arabs forsaking religion? That's very vague statement. What does that even mean? Sure maybe some Arabs have, but not all certainly. Most Arabs are not atheist and still pray, fast, etc.
> 
> Let's assume that the destruction of the Arabs is a central part of Islamic prophecy (it's probably not) and that all Pakistanis will eventually believe in it (they probably will never). Is that really a bad thing to believe in if it's part of your belief system?



If i feed you will I have to digest it for you as well?

If you are so disconnected with Pakistan then why come to the country's defence forum?


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> If i feed you will I have to digest it for you as well?
> 
> If you are so disconnected with Pakistan then why come to the country's defence forum?



How else am I supposed to reconnect? This is one way. 

But if you don't want to help with links/video clips that is fine. 

You can still address this part:

Ok so Persians will help conquer India in the future? Did Prophet Muhammad assert this? I have never heard this from any Pakistani. And also, maybe Prophet is referring to Pakistanis here, but since there was no Pakistan at that time, maybe Prophet said Persians instead.

Arabs forsaking religion? That's very vague statement. What does that even mean? Sure maybe some Arabs have, but not all certainly. Most Arabs are not atheist and still pray, fast, etc.

Let's assume that the destruction of the Arabs is a central part of Islamic prophecy (it's probably not) and that all Pakistanis will eventually believe in it (they probably will never). Is that really a bad thing to believe in if it's part of your belief system?


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## El Sidd

dalvash said:


> Finally! It only took 50 posts (including one of your mother) to get here



You do know honor killing is very much cultural in Pakistan. 

Know your country and countrymen. 

I am putting you on ignore like every other men here with mommy issues.

Enjoy your stay on the forum.


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## dalvash

Retired Troll said:


> You do know honor killing is very much cultural in Pakistan.
> 
> Know your country and countrymen.
> 
> I am putting you on ignore like every other men here with mommy issues.
> 
> Enjoy your stay on the forum.



Someone got their panties twisted. You love playing the victim, don't you? LMAO

Not sure what your mother has to do with honor killings, but I really enjoyed this. LOL LOL LOL


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

roadrunner said:


> It's funny what sort of information can be gleaned off a white nationalist. But here's some, I'd like to see your comments about - anything, even regarding whether you think it's genuine or not.
> 
> &#8220;_The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. &#8220;This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;_
> 
> -David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister.His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967:
> 
> Do we have any Israelis here by any chance?







WRONG!!!!!!..........The above is a forgery and is not linked or proven by ANY credible evidence or sources. 

Another thing, Pakistanis DO NOT hate Jews. We JUST hate indians.........

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## dalvash

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> WRONG!!!!!!..........The above is a forgery and is not linked or proven by ANY credible evidence or sources.
> 
> Another thing, Pakistanis DO NOT hate Jews. We JUST hate indians.........



True. Not all Jews are Zionists either. And you don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist. Plenty of Christian Zionists and a few Muslim Zionists as well.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

dalvash said:


> True. Not all Jews are Zionists either. And you don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist. Plenty of Christian Zionists and a few Muslim Zionists as well.





The Saudi royal family are "Muslim" Zionists.

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