# Research Papers: Pakistani Aerospace Technologies



## JamD

I felt I should make a new thread for these since there are many. These papers are by people closely affiliated with Pakistan's military R&D. Unfortunately, they are published in less-than-renowned places and therefore hard to get your hands on. I am posting them here for everyone's benefit. You can see many interesting things if you just scroll through them.

*Multi-frequency analysis of Gaussian Process modeling for aperiodic RCS responses of a parameterize aircraft model *
This attempts a ML based RCS estimator - uses JF17 for validation









Actual RCS numbers..yeah...








*Comparison of SBR and MLFMM techniques for the computation of RCS of a fighter aircraft*
Some RCS computation method comparison.








for JF17

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## JamD

*ISAR imaging using FFT with polar reformatting of measured RCS*

Some research into detecting stealth fighters...but uses designs from Azm






















*Guidance and control of standoff air-to-surface carrier vehicle*

GNC of IREK....you can even see a weird REK design which I guess was one of the initial designs:




desired range is 100-120 km

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

JamD said:


> Some research into detecting stealth fighters...


Ye howi na baat 👍

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## Riz

JamD said:


> *ISAR imaging using FFT with polar reformatting of measured RCS*
> 
> Some research into detecting stealth fighters...but uses designs from Azm
> View attachment 785992
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> View attachment 785989
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> View attachment 785991
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> *Guidance and control of standoff air-to-surface carrier vehicle*
> 
> GNC of IREK....you can even see a weird REK design which I guess was one of the initial designs:
> View attachment 785996
> 
> desired range is 100-120 km
> View attachment 785997


Seems project AZM team is die heart fan of F-23

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## Trango Towers

Well to all the people who say nothing is happening and there is no research in Pakistan...

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## Vapnope

@Pak Nationalist

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## Indos

I will send this data to KFX/IFX team in Indonesia....

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## firohot4321

Riz said:


> Seems project AZM team is die heart fan of F-23


F23 was said to be better design than f22

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## HRK

JamD said:


> *ISAR imaging using FFT with polar reformatting of measured RCS*
> 
> Some research into detecting stealth fighters...but uses designs from Azm
> View attachment 785992
> 
> View attachment 785989
> 
> View attachment 785991


is it possible for you to share this paper as well

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## Indos

firohot4321 said:


> F23 was said to be better design than f22



Better Stealth but less agile than F 22.

It is not just choosing the desired design but also on how our technology can actually develop it. Since 2011-Desember 2012 ADD Korea and Indonesian team (Indonesian Aerospace+ Institute Technology Bandung) make 2 design of KFX/IFX, one with canard and the other without canard. 

This phase is also known as Technology Development phase where the optimum designs are made, but later the one without canard that is picked ( C -100 ) to be developed further and refined. One of reasons the canard design is not picked is because of the fact that we dont have capability to make one with canard, look like related to its FBW system.

KAI and LM entered the program since 2015.




.

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## Sayfullah

In Sha Allah Pakistan will make its own indigenous 5th gen fighter and prove all the people who were saying we can’t make one wrong. Azm will be a reality In Sha Allah!

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## firohot4321

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> In Sha Allah Pakistan will make its own indigenous 5th gen fighter and prove all the people who were saying we can’t make one wrong. Azm will be a reality In Sha Allah!


We will make a final jet insha'Allah
But question is when and how many parts of it will be locally produced

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## Indos

JamD said:


> I felt I should make a new thread for these since there are many. These papers are by people closely affiliated with Pakistan's military R&D. Unfortunately, they are published in less-than-renowned places and therefore hard to get your hands on. I am posting them here for everyone's benefit. You can see many interesting things if you just scroll through them.
> 
> *Multi-frequency analysis of Gaussian Process modeling for aperiodic RCS responses of a parameterize aircraft model *
> This attempts a ML based RCS estimator - uses JF17 for validation
> View attachment 785979
> 
> View attachment 785980
> 
> Actual RCS numbers..yeah...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Comparison of SBR and MLFMM techniques for the computation of RCS of a fighter aircraft*
> Some RCS computation method comparison.
> View attachment 785983
> 
> View attachment 785982
> 
> for JF17



Brother, actually what is your specialty in Aerospace engineering ? And I would like to know whether you are involved in fighter project in USA since you have got Master and Phd degree in US and possibly currently working in US Aerospace industry as well.

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## S A L M A N.

*Design of Engine Gimbaling Mechanism for Thrust Vector Control of Liquid Propellent Rocket Engine*

A gimbaling mechanism for thrust vector control of a space launch vehicle’s first stage liquid propellent rocket engine

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

S A L M A N. said:


> *Design of Engine Gimbaling Mechanism for Thrust Vector Control of Liquid Propellent Rocket Engine*
> 
> A gimbaling mechanism for thrust vector control of a space launch vehicle’s first stage liquid propellent rocket engine
> 
> View attachment 786067
> View attachment 786068
> View attachment 786069


Is this usuall research paper or it means Pakistan is working on actual liquid propelled engine?
It will be great if they are working on SLV


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## S A L M A N.

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Is this usuall research paper or it means Pakistan is working on actual liquid propelled engine?
> It will be great if they are working on SLV



From what @JamD has shared earlier, I can say that this is actual R&D for a real liquid engine that is in the works for a future SLV. However, the design presented in the research paper is too simplistic and impractical to be of much use in said SLV. However, one of the authors of the paper is an individual known to have worked at KRL and is now working on the liquid engine project. We may never know for sure.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

S A L M A N. said:


> From what @JamD has shared earlier, I can say that this is actual R&D for a real liquid engine that is in the works for a future SLV. However, the design presented in the research paper is too simplistic and impractical to be of much use in said SLV. However, one of the authors of the paper is an individual known to have worked at KRL and is now working on the liquid engine project. We may never know for sure.


But they are aslo not going to release actual detailed engine design research papers online.this seems some initial research paper.

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## S A L M A N.

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> But they are aslo not going to release actual detailed engine design research papers online.this seems some initial research paper.



That is entirely possible. However, any technology related to liquid engines is not exactly ground breaking (unless you are sharing the dimensions of injector plates and injector holes, combustion chamber dimensions/pressures, etc). Engine gimballing systems are basically auxiliary/support systems. The other possibility for such a basic design may be the inexperience of Pakistani researchers/engineers in indigenous development of liquid engines and its supporting tech i.e. Pakistan has not worked on any liquid engines except those for the Ghauri (which were pretty basic Soviet-style engines with thrust vanes instead of gimballing)

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## JamD

HRK said:


> is it possible for you to share this paper as well


Sorry I had to wipe that pdf of some identifying information. It's attached here.


Indos said:


> Brother, actually what is your specialty in Aerospace engineering ?


Flight dynamics and control.



Indos said:


> And I would like to know whether you are involved in fighter project in USA since you have got Master and Phd degree in US and possibly currently working in US Aerospace industry as well.


We have a saying in Pakistan on when we don't want to answer a probing question: "Sab bata doon?", which translates to "Should I tell you everything?" lol. Sorry I don't feel comfortable talking about these things on a forum. I hope you understand. Besides isn't it cooler if I am all mysterious ooooo

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## LeGenD

One of the best threads in a while. Appreciated.

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## JamD

S A L M A N. said:


> *Design of Engine Gimbaling Mechanism for Thrust Vector Control of Liquid Propellent Rocket Engine*
> 
> A gimbaling mechanism for thrust vector control of a space launch vehicle’s first stage liquid propellent rocket engine
> 
> View attachment 786067
> View attachment 786068
> View attachment 786069



So this is awkward lol. I know all of the authors. Which means I know what this paper represents. Unfortunately, this is just a paper written due to a requirement by the university to "write a paper for practice". So really this is nothing real/serious.

However, this was a paper based on these students' FYP being advised by Dr.Ihtezaz Qamar, who I have mentioned on this forum before:


JamD said:


> Again maybe. Dr.Ihtezaz Qamar (ex KRL) has been working on building a liquid-fueled rocket engine at IST for the past 7-8 years. I know that sounds like a toy project but he was given an entire lab for his own, and is left to his own devices because of the clout that he has. So MAYBE there was a serious liquid program running somewhere, which was linked with this university-level program run by Dr.Qamar.


And this is from 2014 so a lot has probably happened since. I do expect Dr.Qamar to have done some actual work.

On a related note - all of the authors except Dr.Qamar have migrated out of Pakistan. Make what you will of that.











For completeness I am reposting these papers here:

*Computational Aerodynamics Study of Competing Conceptual Designs for Advance Tactical Fighter Aircraft



















*

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## JamD

*Sensitivity and Design Point Analysis of RD-93 Engine at Static Sea Level using Numerical Propulsion System Simulation



*

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## S A L M A N.

JamD said:


> So this is awkward lol. I know all of the authors. Which means I know what this paper represents. Unfortunately, this is just a paper written due to a requirement by the university to "write a paper for practice". So really this is nothing real/serious.
> 
> However, this was a paper based on these students' FYP being advised by Dr.Ihtezaz Qamar, who I have mentioned on this forum before:



I live to see my tiny hopes dashed. But I should probably know better.

This 'write a paper for practice' problem is exactly why I haven't posted a lot of papers that were written by people at NRDI.



JamD said:


> And this is from 2014 so a lot has probably happened since. I do expect Dr.Qamar to have done some actual work.
> 
> On a related note - all of the authors except Dr.Qamar have migrated out of Pakistan. Make what you will of that.


During my time at these 'university labs working on national-level projects', I have observed dozens of the best and brightest people spending 6-12 months working at the lab, getting a publication under their belt and then taking off for Germany, Canada or the US. The ones that remain are literally the worst of the lot (no offence meant) in that they do not have the intellectual vigor or mindset for this kind of work. In short, this frequent coming and going of people ensures zero practical progress on these projects. 
Example: All projects mentioned by Admiral Abbasi in 2020 are at a virtual freeze because of this reason

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## JamD

S A L M A N. said:


> I live to see my tiny hopes dashed. But I should probably know better.
> 
> This 'write a paper for practice' problem is exactly why I haven't posted a lot of papers that were written by people at NRDI.
> 
> 
> During my time at these 'university labs working on national-level projects', I have observed dozens of the best and brightest people spending 6-12 months working at the lab, getting a publication under their belt and then taking off for Germany, Canada or the US. The ones that remain are literally the worst of the lot (no offence meant) in that they do not have the intellectual vigor or mindset for this kind of work. In short, this frequent coming and going of people ensures zero practical progress on these projects.
> Example: All projects mentioned by Admiral Abbasi in 2020 are at a virtual freeze because of this reason


So you're taking revenge for me dashing your hopes?lol


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

S A L M A N. said:


> During my time at these 'university labs working on national-level projects', I have observed dozens of the best and brightest people spending 6-12 months working at the lab, getting a publication under their belt and then taking off for Germany, Canada or the US. The ones that remain are literally the worst of the lot (no offence meant) in that they do not have the intellectual vigor or mindset for this kind of work. In short, this frequent coming and going of people ensures zero practical progress on these projects.
> Example: All projects mentioned by Admiral Abbasi in 2020 are at a virtual freeze because of this reason



May be these bright people just come here to make their way to abroad.While people remaining in institutions just want to work for Pakistan.so this should not mean that they are not valuable people.

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## JamD

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> May be these bright people just come here to make their way to abroad.While people remaining in institutions just want to work for Pakistan.so this should not mean that they are not valuable people.


Yes, that is certainly a possibility. I have known many such people who's goal since day one has been to settle abroad.

However, there are also the other kind of people (I include myself in them). These people never even wanted to consider the possibility of settling abroad. They would actually get into arguments with people who would say to them "you'll never come back.". These people would argue with their own family who said stay abroad. That is how much they want to work for Pakistan. But the state of intellectual, economic, security, and legal affairs in the country is so bad (and getting worse) that these people are forced to do the cost-benefit analysis of what they'll suffer and what advantage their suffering will be to Pakistan.

A very good friend of mine who is in one of "those" places in Pakistan said and I quote:
"One one hand I feel brilliant minds like yours should work in Pakistan and bring latest research to aero industry. . . But on the other hand Pakistan industries are very resistant to change from their conventional practices. . . you will have to struggle at least for 3-5 years in order to bring some change. . . And these 3-5 years are not gonna be easy for guys like you. . . And after 5 years it could have gone both ways. . . Either you become sarkari noker or you can have a small group who is struggling to bring change. . . And Mostly what happen is people leave and go abroad. . .I am sorry its depressing but it is what it is.... There are very very few people in our setups who are welcoming to change and latest research work "

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## S A L M A N.

JamD said:


> So you're taking revenge for me dashing your hopes?lol


Lol, nothing of the sort. Just trading relatable examples. 



Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> May be these bright people just come here to make their way to abroad.While people remaining in institutions just want to work for Pakistan.so this should not mean that they are not valuable people.



All I'm saying is that Pakistan does not have the enabling environment in which anyone would want to work here. "Jo yahan ruka hua hai, wo wohi hai jisko bahar bhaagne ka mauqa nahe mila"
The ones who work on these projects/labs for some time and then go abroad are actually really smart - they are saving themselves instead of going down with the sinking ship.
And the people I called "the worst" are just those whom I knew from my experiences (I'm sure there are a lot of great people who work here out of sheer patriotism) - the ones I knew weren't good engineers/researchers and were just inducted because of poor hiring standards and because of an unavailability of qualified people since no sane person would want to work in that environment (i.e. low pay, unprofessional leadership, fauji mindset, etc).

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## Raider 21

JamD said:


> Yes, that is certainly a possibility. I have known many such people who's goal since day one has been to settle abroad.
> 
> However, there are also the other kind of people (I include myself in them). These people never even wanted to consider the possibility of settling abroad. They would actually get into arguments with people who would say to them "you'll never come back.". These people would argue with their own family who said stay abroad. That is how much they want to work for Pakistan. But the state of intellectual, economic, security, and legal affairs in the country is so bad (and getting worse) that these people are forced to do the cost-benefit analysis of what they'll suffer and what advantage their suffering will be to Pakistan.
> 
> A very good friend of mine who is in one of "those" places in Pakistan said and I quote:
> "One one hand I feel brilliant minds like yours should work in Pakistan and bring latest research to aero industry. . . But on the other hand Pakistan industries are very resistant to change from their conventional practices. . . you will have to struggle at least for 3-5 years in order to bring some change. . . And these 3-5 years are not gonna be easy for guys like you. . . And after 5 years it could have gone both ways. . . Either you become sarkari noker or you can have a small group who is struggling to bring change. . . And Mostly what happen is people leave and go abroad. . .I am sorry its depressing but it is what it is.... There are very very few people in our setups who are welcoming to change and latest research work "


One of the authors in these publications is a serving PAF officer. He had his fun by getting send abroad himself for post-grad studies and still in the service.

I interviewed under him for an aerodynamics role at PAC, and the interview quickly changed to an interrogation. I cut it short myself and he curtly said that he never had seen people reject working at PAC, I simply said with the attitude he was showing, I saw no progression in the department.........and unfortunately that cultural mentality is still there.

Got hired the same day for a position abroad (in line with my preferred flight test field), and I am more than happy to have not picked PAC Kamra, at least as a civilian it is no place to be there. With the current air chief, I am hearing things are slightly progressing there.....

Note: Thanks for posting these publications, other than the Azm one, they are very well written and have good content.

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## JamD

Raider 21 said:


> One of the authors in these publications is a serving PAF officer. He had his fun by getting send abroad himself for post-grad studies and still in the service.
> 
> I interviewed under him for an aerodynamics role at PAC, and the interview quickly changed to an interrogation. I cut it short myself and he curtly said that he never had seen people reject working at PAC, I simply said with the attitude he was showing, I saw no progression in the department.........and unfortunately that cultural mentality is still there.
> 
> Got hired the same day for a position abroad (in line with what my preferred flight test field), and I am more than happy to have not picked PAC Kamra, at least as a civilian it is no place to be there. With the current air chief, I am hearing things are slightly progressing there.....
> 
> Note: Thanks for posting these publications, other than the Azm one, they are very well written and have good content.


Yes there are more than one serving PAF folks in there. I have sort of interviewed for a possible position at PAC too. I was told to come to Pakistan immediately and also told that everything I know is basically wrong and useless - somehow the conversation was steered towards making that point. This was the director of the program, who's US educated and supposed to be different. I wonder if you and I are talking about the same person 

Someone I narrated this conversation to said to me that it's in our nature to put down people to show superiority. I guess I needed to be put down. Doesn't bode well for the environment he was asking me to join.

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## S A L M A N.

JamD said:


> Yes there are more than one serving PAF folks in there. I have sort of interviewed for a possible position at PAC too. I was told to come to Pakistan immediately and also told that everything I know is basically wrong and useless - somehow the conversation was steered towards making that point. This was the director of the program, who's US educated and supposed to be different. I wonder if you and I are talking about the same person
> 
> Someone I narrated this conversation to said to me that it's in our nature to put down people to show superiority. I guess I needed to be put down. Doesn't bode well for the environment he was asking me to join.



Why is it that anything remotely related to Pakistan's tech industry landscape eventually turns into a major rant against the fauji mindset? 
Have to give credit where it is due though: I have not seen an example of what you described in the PN. Not even in the senior (upto 1-star) ranks.

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## M.AsfandYar

JamD said:


> So this is awkward lol. I know all of the authors. Which means I know what this paper represents. Unfortunately, this is just a paper written due to a requirement by the university to "write a paper for practice". So really this is nothing real/serious.
> 
> However, this was a paper based on these students' FYP being advised by Dr.Ihtezaz Qamar, who I have mentioned on this forum before:
> 
> And this is from 2014 so a lot has probably happened since. I do expect Dr.Qamar to have done some actual work.
> 
> On a related note - all of the authors except Dr.Qamar have migrated out of Pakistan. Make what you will of that.


The last I heard Dr. IQ was retiring. Also, much of the old guard has gone or is in the process. He supervised some FYP related to this in the last years and then took on some of those students after graduation.

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## S.Y.A

S A L M A N. said:


> Have to give credit where it is due though: I have not seen an example of what you described in the PN. Not even in the senior (upto 1-star) ranks.


Really?! Well then, it looks like all the stories of navy being really forward thinking and sensible are true then.

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## JamD

S A L M A N. said:


> Why is it that anything remotely related to Pakistan's tech industry landscape eventually turns into a major rant against the fauji mindset?


I know that's a rhetorical question but I'll answer it anyway lol. It's simple:
1. All military tech industry in Pakistan is strictly controlled and micromanaged by the military so there are no alternatives.
2. The military often does a pretty bad job at it in many cases.
3. Our population thinks it's actually doing great because they have some successful programs and everything else is unquestionable behind scoorty. 
4. This disconnect between 2 and 3 pisses me off because 3 forces us into a rut where we don't improve.



S A L M A N. said:


> Have to give credit where it is due though: I have not seen an example of what you described in the PN. Not even in the senior (upto 1-star) ranks.


That is very very welcome. You should write about those things in detail. We need some positive feedback in all the negative feedback I provide. I want to feel happy lol.

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## Enigma SIG

JamD said:


> I know that's a rhetorical question but I'll answer it anyway lol. It's simple:
> 1. All military tech industry in Pakistan is strictly controlled and micromanaged by the military so there are no alternatives.
> 2. The military often does a pretty bad job at it in many cases.
> 3. Our population thinks it's actually doing great because they have some successful programs and everything else is unquestionable behind scoorty.
> 4. This disconnect between 2 and 3 pisses me off because 3 forces us into a rut where we don't improve.
> 
> 
> That is very very welcome. You should write about those things in detail. We need some positive feedback in all the negative feedback I provide. I want to feel happy lol.


I mean PA looks at the US MIC as its ideal military wise but doesn't like to work the way the US MIC does. At this point, it should be Monkey see, Monkey do.

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## sparten

And we have alternatives? The private sector is averse to spending money on innovation (outside the IT sector). Legacy of Bhutto's **stupid** nationalization. The Government is the only game in town in Pk and I hate to tell you this, but Government priorities change. Most programs will fail.
Until a few years ago, UAV research got a lot of rupees and then started getting cut as the big operations on the western border ended. That's the nature of the beast. 
The pandemic ensured that bio-tech research had lots of money available and I think that will continue, for while, though at reduced rates since our Government did not like having to scour the planet for medical supplies.

One of the things that i liked about Fawaad Ch's reign as S&T Minister is the beginnings of linking research institutes with private industry. At least if a Government project fails, the private sector might find use for it,

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## JamD

Enigma SIG said:


> I mean PA looks at the US MIC as its ideal military wise but doesn't like to work the way the US MIC does. At this point, it should be Monkey see, Monkey do.


I really don't think they do in terms of R&D. They are much closer to Russia or North Korea. Pakistan is a weird mix of extreme capitalist and extreme communist systems I've noticed. There is very little room for private enterprise in the military space. This is diametrically opposite to the US where the private military industrial complex is a thing (not something we should aspire to either).

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## JamD

sparten said:


> And we have alternatives? The private sector is averse to spending money on innovation (outside the IT sector). Legacy of Bhutto's **stupid** nationalization. The Government is the only game in town in Pk and I hate to tell you this, but Government priorities change. Most programs will fail.
> Until a few years ago, UAV research got a lot of rupees and then started getting cut as the big operations on the western border ended. That's the nature of the beast.
> The pandemic ensured that bio-tech research had lots of money available and I think that will continue, for while, though at reduced rates since our Government did not like having to scour the planet for medical supplies.
> 
> One of the things that i liked about Fawaad Ch's reign as S&T Minister is the beginnings of linking research institutes with private industry. At least if a Government project fails, the private sector might find use for it,


 
Couple of things.
1. For military projects I dont think the government decides any direction. I don't think a civilian government decided we needed Ra'ad or Shahpar or something. It was the military that decided it.
2. The military with its influence on all military production actively stifles private enterprise with the thinking being some combination of:
a. Private military stuff is considered a security threat
b. The military loses some money and influence it has with its monopoly over the industry.
c. Pakistan's non existent contract enforcement system in case a private company reneges on a contract.
d. It thinks it can do better and goes if the private sector can make it we can too so we should, why pay the private sector?
You can see why I said Pakistani military industry is very communist in nature.
3. Doing research for very specific system development and changing and dropping what you're doing when the winds blow a different direction is a terrible way to do research. Little successful research work happens that way. Research requires some persistence. I don't even think that happens in our system. It would be a very stupid stupid thing to do and would be another reason to leave research to researchers rather than soldiers.
4. I agree ZAB was the worst thing to happen to all kinds of private enterprise in Pakistan and who knows we might have had a vibrant private defense industry had ZAB not messed it all up.

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## Raider 21

JamD said:


> I know that's a rhetorical question but I'll answer it anyway lol. It's simple:
> 1. All military tech industry in Pakistan is strictly controlled and micromanaged by the military so there are no alternatives.
> 2. The military often does a pretty bad job at it in many cases.
> 3. Our population thinks it's actually doing great because they have some successful programs and everything else is unquestionable behind scoorty.
> 4. This disconnect between 2 and 3 pisses me off because 3 forces us into a rut where we don't improve.
> 
> 
> That is very very welcome. You should write about those things in detail. We need some positive feedback in all the negative feedback I provide. I want to feel happy lol.


I second that, and not only from feedback from back home as my dad flew in PAF, but having seen how PAC present their products to foreign customers, their marketing skills are very poor. There are more limitations than progressions, but the people are made to over praise the system. Criticism is taken as insult, rather than as a note for progression, it is an issue of the culture, not the potential.

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## Goenitz

@JamD
Do you work in a research group who secures funding for a project?
You can tailor your field and do research work for Pakistan. Such as this research group has mainly worked for some city council to monitor health of trees (drones + different cameras + algorithm). However, they have been contacted by several other groups like road surveyors to detect pothole.

Now this group is asking (I think to UKRI) for 10 Million RS to carry out project in Pakistan like to monitor Kinnu trees health (Depalpur) and collect data for it. In fact they had some problems to stabilise the camera on the dog robot (interested  ). Overall, I mean independent research and securing funds for it is very rewarding and you can channel your funds where you like.

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## sparten

JamD said:


> 1. For military projects I dont think the government decides any direction. I don't think a civilian government decided we needed Ra'ad or Shahpar or something. It was the military that decided it.


This is a common trope, but one which is false. The power of the purse is the ultimate control and that is and always has been parliaments perogative. Your shiny new drone is a non starter if the treasury isn’t willing fund it. You can have all the support needed but if they don’t sign the cheque, it ain’t Happening.
And rest assured the treasury asks detailed question as to why a certain platform is needed.


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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> I second that, and not only from feedback from back home as my dad flew in PAF, but having seen how PAC present their products to foreign customers, their marketing skills are very poor. There are more limitations than progressions, but the people are made to over praise the system. Criticism is taken as insult, rather than as a note for progression, it is an issue of the *culture*, not the potential.


Unfortunately the society and the institution itself tends to propagate it. Until that changes (beyond the Fintech startup) I expect nothing revolutionary or great from Pakistan or most Pakistanis . Just small incremental “two steps forward and one step back” routines.


JamD said:


> Yes there are more than one serving PAF folks in there. I have sort of interviewed for a possible position at PAC too. I was told to come to Pakistan immediately and also told that everything I know is basically wrong and useless - somehow the conversation was steered towards making that point. This was the director of the program, who's US educated and supposed to be different. I wonder if you and I are talking about the same person
> 
> Someone I narrated this conversation to said to me that it's in our nature to put down people to show superiority. I guess I needed to be put down. Doesn't bode well for the environment he was asking me to join.


Most Pakistanis get insecure very quickly if they feel a person they term as junior in age or perceived experience knows more than them.
Especially if they got their post through nepotism or false references.

Which is precisely why more often than not unless you have a particular knack for sycophancy and the patience to wait like in the military - Pakistan is no place for well educated and intelligent Pakistanis.

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## JamD

Goenitz said:


> @JamD
> Do you work in a research group who secures funding for a project?
> You can tailor your field and do research work for Pakistan. Such as this research group has mainly worked for some city council to monitor health of trees (drones + different cameras + algorithm). However, they have been contacted by several other groups like road surveyors to detect pothole.
> 
> Now this group is asking (I think to UKRI) for 10 Million RS to carry out project in Pakistan like to monitor Kinnu trees health (Depalpur) and collect data for it. In fact they had some problems to stabilise the camera on the dog robot (interested  ). Overall, I mean independent research and securing funds for it is very rewarding and you can channel your funds where you like.


I do work for a research group but the research is mostly for the USN and USAF so I don't think I can steer them to help Pakistan lol. However, I have tried getting Pakistani students into good PhD programs using my connections - however, the only people who got in touch were subpar students who weren't able to find other jobs in Pakistan so I couldn't, in good conscience, recommend them. It's a shame really. I could've helped someone but I couldn't find them and those slots got filled up by IIT grads from India instead.


sparten said:


> This is a common trope, but one which is false. The power of the purse is the ultimate control and that is and always has been parliaments perogative. Your shiny new drone is a non starter if the treasury isn’t willing fund it. You can have all the support needed but if they don’t sign the cheque, it ain’t Happening.
> And rest assured the treasury asks detailed question as to why a certain platform is needed.


Let's agree to disagree because we will disagree on how much power the civilian government has over military projects besides of course the power to shit the economy's pants and sink everything. Let's not even get started on whether or not the civilian decision makers are even competent to be making such decisions.
Anyway.... I wanted this thread to be about fun research papers from Pakistan. There's enough bad news elsewhere, let's make this a happy place lol.

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## JamD

*Adaptive Sliding Mode Roll Control of a Canard-Controlled Missile*
Some work on Nasr? Coauthored by current Chairman NESCOM













*Linearized Flight Dynamics of Vertical Lift-Off High Speed Vehicles*
More Nasr/Fatah work?

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## JamD

*Deep Sea Motion under higher sea states*
NESCOM's interest in UUV's?

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## JamD

*Autonomous terrain-following for unmanned air vehicles*
Work on Burraq UCAV




Flight envelope for Burraq WOW:


















*Runway Detection and Localization in Aerial Images Using Deep Learning *
and
*Automated Military Vehicle Detection from Low-Altitude Aerial_Images*

Some fun work done at National Center of Artificial Intelligence (NCAI)

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## HRK

JamD said:


> *Autonomous terrain-following for unmanned air vehicles*
> Work on Burraq UCAV
> View attachment 786506
> 
> Flight envelope for Burraq WOW:
> View attachment 786507
> 
> View attachment 786509


Ok I accept that I am illiterate in electronics and Computer hardware but 1 MB RAM ad 1 MB memory .... ???

I literally have no idea what & how could this thing could even start its operations ....

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## JamD

HRK said:


> Ok I accept that I am illiterate in electronics and Computer hardware but 1 MB RAM ad 1 MB memory .... ???
> 
> I literally have no idea what how could thing could even start its operations ....


1. Embedded systems don't need as much oomph as your cell phone.
2. This is probably just the flight computer.
3. These things need to be hardened against mechanical and EM disturbances so often are pretty old designs.







JamD said:


> *Autonomous terrain-following for unmanned air vehicles*
> Work on Burraq UCAV
> View attachment 786506
> 
> Flight envelope for Burraq WOW:
> View attachment 786507
> 
> View attachment 786509
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Runway Detection and Localization in Aerial Images Using Deep Learning *
> and
> *Automated Military Vehicle Detection from Low-Altitude Aerial_Images*
> 
> Some fun work done at National Center of Artificial Intelligence (NCAI)


Gotta love the obviously pasted background in the picture lol:

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## Blacklight

sparten said:


> This is a common trope, but one which is false. The power of the purse is the ultimate control and that is and always has been parliaments perogative. Your shiny new drone is a non starter if the treasury isn’t willing fund it. You can have all the support needed but if they don’t sign the cheque, it ain’t Happening.
> And rest assured the treasury asks detailed question as to why a certain platform is needed.



Not in Pakistan, and Definitely Not with this govt. Maybe in Pakistan on Kepler 425B

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## JamD

JamD said:


> *Autonomous terrain-following for unmanned air vehicles*
> Work on Burraq UCAV
> View attachment 786506
> 
> Flight envelope for Burraq WOW:
> View attachment 786507
> 
> View attachment 786509


As good as we're going to get on official data on Burraq:

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## S A L M A N.

JamD said:


> I know that's a rhetorical question but I'll answer it anyway lol. It's simple:
> 1. All military tech industry in Pakistan is strictly controlled and micromanaged by the military so there are no alternatives.
> 2. The military often does a pretty bad job at it in many cases.
> 3. Our population thinks it's actually doing great because they have some successful programs and everything else is unquestionable behind scoorty.
> 4. This disconnect between 2 and 3 pisses me off because 3 forces us into a rut where we don't improve.



Having seen the military up-close (by studying with them and being taught by them), I can only be amazed at the magnitude of the difference between the public (civilian) perception of the military and the reality. But those are stories for another day.

Any criticism of the military in civilian circles is unpopular and is responded by allegations of treason and a recount of how glorious the armed forces are. And obviously, any criticism of the military in military circles is equal to a black Vigo at your door. 



S.Y.A said:


> Really?! Well then, it looks like all the stories of navy being really forward thinking and sensible are true then.





JamD said:


> That is very very welcome. You should write about those things in detail. We need some positive feedback in all the negative feedback I provide. I want to feel happy lol.



I'll tread carefully here by narrating some anecdotes and examples. The black Vigo prevents me from being very specific.

As a lowly junior year student, my interview was conducted by one 1-star and two Captains - all US-educated PhDs. Not once did my lack of knowledge/experience/etc ever come up, no one gave me a dressing down. When I described my purpose of joining as getting practical research/project experience under a professor and my future plan of getting an MS from the US or Europe, the Commodore suggested to the Captains, "Maybe we can send him for an MS, fully paid and he can come back and join us". The Captains agreed. I don't think they were trying to humor me. Three of my friends and some other seniors had been shortlisted for this final interview and none of them reported any arrogant behavior or 'dressing down' incidents.
We were working in specific labs and it was regular practice to approach the lab director/PI (Captain rank) directly in his office. My PI even conducted some after-hours sessions to help us with our Electromagnetics course (since we had a terrible professor in class) at our request.
The PI and Co-PI (both PN) gave a full blown going-away dinner in honor of one of the (civilian) engineers who was accepted into a US university. Point being: there was no hint of the arrogance or bloody-civilian mindset around there
All of us 20-somethings were working on live projects and using equipment worth hundreds of thousands (sometimes millions) of rupees. We were given a free hand to find creative solutions to whatever problems that would come up.
There is a realization among the PN R&D people (the guys with PhDs) that we can not possibly develop everything in-house and so there is a combination of collaboration with local private industry and OTS procurements. Integration of systems from different OEMs was the main focus area.
However, everything is not all rosy, there's some bad news too:

Project management practices are non-existent: as such there is huge underutilization or even wastage of very valuable resources. There are no set procedures for agreeing upon deliverables, timelines.
The PN top brass (the guys at the very top) suffers from a deplorable lack of realization of the complexities of tech R&D and project delivery. They just think that by putting a bunch of PhDs, MS grads and UGs in a lab they have created the Pakistani equivalent of the Office of Naval Research, USN.
The pay and benefits are mediocre (specially for those with MS or BE degrees) and this does not attract the best talent. The initial group of young geniuses (from the top national universities) has all moved on, leaving behind a mediocre to poor group of fresh grads from the lowest tier universities of Pakistan (no offence meant to anyone)
There is zero cross-functional collaboration e.g. if LAB 1 requires a Vector Network Analyzer and LAB 2 (working on RF & comm projects) already has a VNA, LAB 1 will not ask LAB 2 for support. Instead, LAB 1 will go ahead and order a VNA for itself (price tag in crores of rupees)
Poor work ethic of the (civilian) staff - 80-90% of the R&D staff is civilian - people use office PCs (mostly high end machines) to play games. This is in addition to the typical Pakistani practices of hours long namaz, lunch and smoke breaks. As a result, almost no work gets done during the day.
Review presentations with the PI and other senior-level people is usually an exercise of falsifying test results and data, showing photoshopped pictures, etc
Wrong people for the wrong jobs and frequent recruitment and resignations (i.e. coming and going of people is a routine)



JamD said:


> I do work for a research group but the research is mostly for the USN and USAF so I don't think I can steer them to help Pakistan lol. However, I have tried getting Pakistani students into good PhD programs using my connections - however, the only people who got in touch were subpar students who weren't able to find other jobs in Pakistan so I couldn't, in good conscience, recommend them. It's a shame really. I could've helped someone but I couldn't find them and those slots got filled up by IIT grads from India instead.



Well, when my time comes, I will definitely seek your help with this. 
As a fresh grad, I am reeling with the realization of the true extent of what I DON'T know. If my BE degree taught me anything, it is the scale of how illiterate I am.



JamD said:


> *Deep Sea Motion under higher sea states*
> NESCOM's interest in UUV's?



I have seen some other public info which indicates this. The PN has also shown interest and has taken some practical steps in this area. 


Btw If I am procrastinating these days, then @JamD you are to blame for it lol
Will have to go through all these papers, no doubt about it

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## S.Y.A

S A L M A N. said:


> I'll tread carefully here by narrating some anecdotes and examples. The black Vigo prevents me from being very specific.
> 
> As a lowly junior year student, my interview was conducted by one 1-star and two Captains - all US-educated PhDs. Not once did my lack of knowledge/experience/etc ever come up, no one gave me a dressing down. When I described my purpose of joining as getting practical research/project experience under a professor and my future plan of getting an MS from the US or Europe, the Commodore suggested to the Captains, "Maybe we can send him for an MS, fully paid and he can come back and join us". The Captains agreed. I don't think they were trying to humor me. Three of my friends and some other seniors had been shortlisted for this final interview and none of them reported any arrogant behavior or 'dressing down' incidents.
> We were working in specific labs and it was regular practice to approach the lab director/PI (Captain rank) directly in his office. My PI even conducted some after-hours sessions to help us with our Electromagnetics course (since we had a terrible professor in class) at our request.
> The PI and Co-PI (both PN) gave a full blown going-away dinner in honor of one of the (civilian) engineers who was accepted into a US university. Point being: there was no hint of the arrogance or bloody-civilian mindset around there
> All of us 20-somethings were working on live projects and using equipment worth hundreds of thousands (sometimes millions) of rupees. We were given a free hand to find creative solutions to whatever problems that would come up.
> There is a realization among the PN R&D people (the guys with PhDs) that we can not possibly develop everything in-house and so there is a combination of collaboration with local private industry and OTS procurements. Integration of systems from different OEMs was the main focus area.
> However, everything is not all rosy, there's some bad news too:
> 
> Project management practices are non-existent: as such there is huge underutilization or even wastage of very valuable resources. There are no set procedures for agreeing upon deliverables, timelines.
> The PN top brass (the guys at the very top) suffers from a deplorable lack of realization of the complexities of tech R&D and project delivery. They just think that by putting a bunch of PhDs, MS grads and UGs in a lab they have created the Pakistani equivalent of the Office of Naval Research, USN.
> The pay and benefits are mediocre (specially for those with MS or BE degrees) and this does not attract the best talent. The initial group of young geniuses (from the top national universities) has all moved on, leaving behind a mediocre to poor group of fresh grads from the lowest tier universities of Pakistan (no offence meant to anyone)
> There is zero cross-functional collaboration e.g. if LAB 1 requires a Vector Network Analyzer and LAB 2 (working on RF & comm projects) already has a VNA, LAB 1 will not ask LAB 2 for support. Instead, LAB 1 will go ahead and order a VNA for itself (price tag in crores of rupees)
> Poor work ethic of the (civilian) staff - 80-90% of the R&D staff is civilian - people use office PCs (mostly high end machines) to play games. This is in addition to the typical Pakistani practices of hours long namaz, lunch and smoke breaks. As a result, almost no work gets done during the day.
> Review presentations with the PI and other senior-level people is usually an exercise of falsifying test results and data, showing photoshopped pictures, etc
> Wrong people for the wrong jobs and frequent recruitment and resignations (i.e. coming and going of people is a routine)


were you employed near the national stadium by any chance?
also, the second part is the story of every govt organization, even in nescom, but to a far lesser extent, nescom's project management is better than others.

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## M.AsfandYar

S A L M A N. said:


> As a fresh grad, I am reeling with the realization of the true extent of what I DON'T know. If my BE degree taught me anything, it is the scale of how illiterate I am.


Feeling Exactly the same. And its overwhelming.

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## Blacklight

S A L M A N. said:


> As a fresh grad, I am reeling with the realization of the true extent of what I DON'T know. If my BE degree taught me anything, it is the scale of how illiterate I am.





M.AsfandYar said:


> Feeling Exactly the same. And its overwhelming.


Don't let this realization die, use it. Don't aim for good, but the best.
Be sincere with everyone, and ask the Almighty to shower his blessings on you, it will come in torr.ents, and you will rise to heights you cannot possibly fathom.

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## JamD

S A L M A N. said:


> Having seen the military up-close (by studying with them and being taught by them), I can only be amazed at the magnitude of the difference between the public (civilian) perception of the military and the reality. But those are stories for another day.
> 
> Any criticism of the military in civilian circles is unpopular and is responded by allegations of treason and a recount of how glorious the armed forces are. And obviously, any criticism of the military in military circles is equal to a black Vigo at your door.


Huh..I keep trying to make this thread a happy place and failing lol.

Let me narrate a recent story. I met a NUST-CAE (Risalpur) civilian graduate recently. Extremely bright guy pursuing a PhD here. I met him for the first time and he had what I can only describe as PTSD from spending four years at CAE. As he narrates being a civilian in CAE was hell. He was constantly treated/roughed up like a cadet, especially so because he was top of his class. He was full of rage how barely passing cadets behaved like (and were treated by faculty like) superior in caliber to civilians. He said from day one the cadets were taught they were better than everyone and the cadets never made him forget it. There were different bathrooms for cadets and civilians. This didn't sound like a Pakistani in a Pakistani university in 2010s. This sounded like a brown person in the British Air Force Academy in 1930. The colonial hangover is strong with the military - that is obvious.

But then I think this isn't JUST the military. I look at SUPARCO and they had different bathrooms for officers and "others". All these civilians do exactly the same horrible things that we talk about the military. The colonial hangover is with everyone, not just with those few that end up in the military. I have very little doubt that if we had civilian supremacy in Pakistan we would be talking about the exact same things, just with different actors. It's just that the military is in control and is efficient in maintaining its control so it's the "gora sahb".

I just keep thinking how many good people we have pushed out of Pakistan forever like this. Not that we have a hundreds to replace them either.




S A L M A N. said:


> I'll tread carefully here by narrating some anecdotes and examples. The black Vigo prevents me from being very specific.
> 
> As a lowly junior year student, my interview was conducted by one 1-star and two Captains - all US-educated PhDs. Not once did my lack of knowledge/experience/etc ever come up, no one gave me a dressing down. When I described my purpose of joining as getting practical research/project experience under a professor and my future plan of getting an MS from the US or Europe, the Commodore suggested to the Captains, "Maybe we can send him for an MS, fully paid and he can come back and join us". The Captains agreed. I don't think they were trying to humor me. Three of my friends and some other seniors had been shortlisted for this final interview and none of them reported any arrogant behavior or 'dressing down' incidents.
> We were working in specific labs and it was regular practice to approach the lab director/PI (Captain rank) directly in his office. My PI even conducted some after-hours sessions to help us with our Electromagnetics course (since we had a terrible professor in class) at our request.
> The PI and Co-PI (both PN) gave a full blown going-away dinner in honor of one of the (civilian) engineers who was accepted into a US university. Point being: there was no hint of the arrogance or bloody-civilian mindset around there
> All of us 20-somethings were working on live projects and using equipment worth hundreds of thousands (sometimes millions) of rupees. We were given a free hand to find creative solutions to whatever problems that would come up.
> There is a realization among the PN R&D people (the guys with PhDs) that we can not possibly develop everything in-house and so there is a combination of collaboration with local private industry and OTS procurements. Integration of systems from different OEMs was the main focus area.
> However, everything is not all rosy, there's some bad news too:
> 
> Project management practices are non-existent: as such there is huge underutilization or even wastage of very valuable resources. There are no set procedures for agreeing upon deliverables, timelines.
> The PN top brass (the guys at the very top) suffers from a deplorable lack of realization of the complexities of tech R&D and project delivery. They just think that by putting a bunch of PhDs, MS grads and UGs in a lab they have created the Pakistani equivalent of the Office of Naval Research, USN.
> The pay and benefits are mediocre (specially for those with MS or BE degrees) and this does not attract the best talent. The initial group of young geniuses (from the top national universities) has all moved on, leaving behind a mediocre to poor group of fresh grads from the lowest tier universities of Pakistan (no offence meant to anyone)
> There is zero cross-functional collaboration e.g. if LAB 1 requires a Vector Network Analyzer and LAB 2 (working on RF & comm projects) already has a VNA, LAB 1 will not ask LAB 2 for support. Instead, LAB 1 will go ahead and order a VNA for itself (price tag in crores of rupees)
> Poor work ethic of the (civilian) staff - 80-90% of the R&D staff is civilian - people use office PCs (mostly high end machines) to play games. This is in addition to the typical Pakistani practices of hours long namaz, lunch and smoke breaks. As a result, almost no work gets done during the day.
> Review presentations with the PI and other senior-level people is usually an exercise of falsifying test results and data, showing photoshopped pictures, etc
> Wrong people for the wrong jobs and frequent recruitment and resignations (i.e. coming and going of people is a routine


Thank you! 









S A L M A N. said:


> Well, when my time comes, I will definitely seek your help with this.


Definitely. Just fair warning that I was talking about very specific positions that have been filled since. However, I can still put you in touch with the right people with the right recommendations. Funny story: I even tried advising an FYP for some Pakistani students - it didn't turn out well. But that's a story for another day.




S A L M A N. said:


> As a fresh grad, I am reeling with the realization of the true extent of what I DON'T know. If my BE degree taught me anything, it is the scale of how illiterate I am.





M.AsfandYar said:


> Feeling Exactly the same. And its overwhelming.


At the risk of sounding like a sasta motivational speaker, this is very very good. I wish more people had this realization when they graduated. You shouldn't be like the PAF flt lt with the 2.0 GPA that thinks they can now design Azm lol.

Not sure how scientifically verified this "Dunning-Kruger Effect" is but it sure is useful to talk about things. Most UG's are at the peak of mount stupid when they graduate. Our research group had one this month - an American that thought he was the top of the world because he knew how to run some software packages that we didn't know about, he quit because he didn't want to work unless he was the first author of a paper that had 30 percent chance of being accepted. So stupid arrogant people everywhere is the point.

You guys are lucky that you have passed the peak and are probably at A? That's the good news.

The bad news is that it gets worse. Point B will probably happen somewhere towards the very end of your PhD if you pursue one. And then the rest of your life is spent slowly climbing the slope of enlightenment and then you die before reaching any sort of plateau (that plateau is a fiction in my opinion).










S A L M A N. said:


> Btw If I am procrastinating these days, then @JamD you are to blame for it lol
> Will have to go through all these papers, no doubt about it


Please don't lol. These papers are fun as curiosities and to see what fun secret applications they are being applied to but they are not great scientific papers and you won't learn much of value. Many of these have been submitted to subpar journals and conferences, which means they will have lots of errors/typos and reading a paper with those is not a burden a researcher should take. It's the author's job to make their paper as perfect as possible if they want it to be read seriously.

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## M.AsfandYar

JamD said:


> Let me narrate a recent story. I met a NUST-CAE (Risalpur) civilian graduate recently. Extremely bright guy pursuing a PhD here. I met him for the first time and he had what I can only describe as PTSD from spending four years at CAE. As he narrates being a civilian in CAE was hell.


Is He by any chance Imran Hayat?


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## JamD

M.AsfandYar said:


> Is He by any chance Imran Hayat?


no


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## S A L M A N.

JamD said:


> Huh..I keep trying to make this thread a happy place and failing lol.
> 
> Let me narrate a recent story. I met a NUST-CAE (Risalpur) civilian graduate recently. Extremely bright guy pursuing a PhD here. I met him for the first time and he had what I can only describe as PTSD from spending four years at CAE. As he narrates being a civilian in CAE was hell. He was constantly treated/roughed up like a cadet, especially so because he was top of his class. He was full of rage how barely passing cadets behaved like (and were treated by faculty like) superior in caliber to civilians. He said from day one the cadets were taught they were better than everyone and the cadets never made him forget it. There were different bathrooms for cadets and civilians. This didn't sound like a Pakistani in a Pakistani university in 2010s. This sounded like a brown person in the British Air Force Academy in 1930. The colonial hangover is strong with the military - that is obvious.
> 
> But then I think this isn't JUST the military. I look at SUPARCO and they had different bathrooms for officers and "others". All these civilians do exactly the same horrible things that we talk about the military. The colonial hangover is with everyone, not just with those few that end up in the military. I have very little doubt that if we had civilian supremacy in Pakistan we would be talking about the exact same things, just with different actors. It's just that the military is in control and is efficient in maintaining its control so it's the "gora sahb".
> 
> I just keep thinking how many good people we have pushed out of Pakistan forever like this. Not that we have a hundreds to replace them either.



And I thought the Navy was bad. Compared to this guy, my 4 years were heaven.
Ragging of any sort (by civilians against civilians or cadets against civilians) was a cardinal sin and any offender was liable to be kicked out. A high-level PN board of inquiry had done this to a group of students in the past and no such incident even occurred again. We shared the same classrooms, bathrooms and cafeteria with the cadets and the cadets were very civil and respectful towards us. There was general consensus that they weren't exactly good in academics but this was welcomed since it ensured a lower overall class average and helped a lot of us get good grades with lesser effort. However, this does not change the fact that the military must remain in the barracks and not venture into education or R&D.

Of course, both the military and civilian bureaucracy are just two children of the apparatus that the white man set up to rule and plunder. Both children maintained the family legacy (the attitude towards the 'natives'), but only one (the military) remained good at what it was supposed to do.




JamD said:


> Definitely. Just fair warning that I was talking about very specific positions that have been filled since. However, I can still put you in touch with the right people with the right recommendations. Funny story: I even tried advising an FYP for some Pakistani students - it didn't turn out well. But that's a story for another day.



That's okay. Don't plan to return to school for a while 
But whenever I do, any help provided by anyone would be welcomed. A little push in the right direction can go a long way.
And ouch, would love to hear that story 




JamD said:


> At the risk of sounding like a sasta motivational speaker, this is very very good. I wish more people had this realization when they graduated. You shouldn't be like the PAF flt lt with the 2.0 GPA that thinks they can now design Azm lol.
> 
> Not sure how scientifically verified this "Dunning-Kruger Effect" is but it sure is useful to talk about things. Most UG's are at the peak of mount stupid when they graduate. Our research group had one this month - an American that thought he was the top of the world because he knew how to run some software packages that we didn't know about, he quit because he didn't want to work unless he was the first author of a paper that had 30 percent chance of being accepted. So stupid arrogant people everywhere is the point.
> 
> You guys are lucky that you have passed the peak and are probably at A? That's the good news.
> 
> The bad news is that it gets worse. Point B will probably happen somewhere towards the very end of your PhD if you pursue one. And then the rest of your life is spent slowly climbing the slope of enlightenment and then you die before reaching any sort of plateau (that plateau is a fiction in my opinion).
> View attachment 786646


You do love your graphs 
One of the best professors I had (again a PN Captain lol) said: "A PhD only shows how little a person really knows"
I wish I had lived in the age of Galileo or Newton, relatively simpler times when the overall body of knowledge was way smaller. If I never do a PhD, it will probably be because I chose to explore knowledge of a wider variety rather than being an expert in one extremely specific area. And also because I sometimes feel I am too dumb to literally create new knowledge - the true aim of a PhD. 




JamD said:


> Please don't lol. These papers are fun as curiosities and to see what fun secret applications they are being applied to but they are not great scientific papers and you won't learn much of value. Many of these have been submitted to subpar journals and conferences, which means they will have lots of errors/typos and reading a paper with those is not a burden a researcher should take. It's the author's job to make their paper as perfect as possible if they want it to be read seriously.



Lol I actually realized this once I looked a bit closely. The only paper worth reading imo is the Burraq one - it has some technical info that MIGHT add to my knowledge 🤷‍♂️ 

The quality of the other papers reminds me of some real horror stories. "Ganda hai par dhanda hai ye" sums up the 'business' of writing papers in Pakistan

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## Bratva

On a positive note, Civilians in Pentagon/American Military faces the same issues

Ex Pentagon Software Chief resignation note. He resigned due to the same fauji mindset being discussed here 
"
In his resignation announcement, too, he did not reveal his disappointment with the way Pentagon functions. "Please stop putting a Major or Lt Col. (despite their devotion, exceptional attitude, and culture) in charge of ICAM, Zero Trust or Cloud for 1 to 4 million users when they have no previous experience in that field – we are setting up critical infrastructure to fail. We would not put a pilot in the cockpit without extensive flight training; why would we expect someone with no IT experience to be close to successful? They do not know what to execute on or what to prioritize which leads to endless risk reduction efforts and diluted focus," he had written."









US has already lost to China in AI fight, says ex-Pentagon software chief


US has already lost to China in AI fight, says ex-Pentagon software chief “We have no competing fighting chance against China in 15 to 20 years. Right now, it’s already a done deal; it is already over in my opinion,” the 37-year-old first chief software office for the US Air Force said...



defence.pk

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## M.AsfandYar

JamD said:


> no


He taught us CFD and was also from CAE, basically recounted the same experiences, and told us how blessed we are to be NOT in CAE. And when discussing careers told us to run in opposite directions. Now in the US for Ph.D. To be honest we thought he was exaggerating and things couldn't be that screwed up.

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## Cookie Monster

JamD said:


> I really don't think they do in terms of R&D. They are much closer to Russia or North Korea. Pakistan is a weird mix of extreme capitalist and extreme communist systems I've noticed. There is very little room for private enterprise in the military space. This is diametrically opposite to the US where the private military industrial complex is a thing (not something we should aspire to either).


Based on what the members here are saying as per their experiences...I guess the only way out(somewhat) would be to start private companies(like for example Boeing or Hyundai but much much smaller)...
...where two things will be required
1) A few talented ppl who r willing to stay in the country and work for this company(despite income and perks being considerably less than some foreign opportunity). It would help immensely if they themselves held some stake in this company.
2) This company...whatever field it works in...must have some overlap between civilian R&D and products...and military R&D and products. So that it can continue to make profit...even if Pak military doesn't buy its products...and instead chooses some foreign option(or from the state owned enterprises like HIT, PAC, KSEW, etc). This is why I mentioned examples like Boeing or Hyundai...bcuz they research and develop products for civilian use...but some of that inevitably ends up benefitting them in developing products for use by the military. If the military does end up buying the products of this private company...well then even better as it will make them grow further.

...once these types of private ventures...make a foothold...they should be able to outcompete fauji minded inflexible state enterprises.

I know this discussion is going off topic from the main purpose of the thread...but I think it is a crucial discussion that we should have. Perhaps create a separate thread for it if necessary...
...while it's all good and fun when ppl make fun of Tejas, Arjun, etc.(products resulting from the same problems we r discussing...in their state owned entities), we ignore how fast India's private companies like Tata are making progress. They have vast amount of resources and talent...that they are gearing towards providing solutions to their military..added to that is the willingness of established defense companies(from all over the world) to make partnership with these Indian companies...in return for big orders or for JV type projects...
...this gives them a further jump start. If this continues...and Pakistan's private sector remains in the sorry state we r in...
...soon they will be laughing at our equivalents of Tejas, Arjun(or whatever our state owned entities can cook up)...all the while they will have their own equivalents of Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing, etc.

@JamD @SQ8 @S A L M A N. @Quwa @Raider 21 @Akh1112 @messiach
@Blacklight @HRK @Dazzler

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## Raider 21

M.AsfandYar said:


> He taught us CFD and was also from CAE, basically recounted the same experiences, and told us how blessed we are to be NOT in CAE. And when discussing careers told us to run in opposite directions. Now in the US for Ph.D. To be honest we thought he was exaggerating and things couldn't be that screwed up.


Just to be clear this CAE would be the College of Aeronautical Engineering correct?? 
As I worked for an aerospace firm also called CAE, based in Canada

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## HRK

Cookie Monster said:


> Based on what the members here are saying as per their experiences...I guess the only way out(somewhat) would be to start private companies(like for example Boeing or Hyundai but much much smaller)...
> ...where two things will be required
> 1) A few talented ppl who r willing to stay in the country and work for this company(despite income and perks being considerably less than some foreign opportunity). It would help immensely if they themselves held some stake in this company.
> 2) This company...whatever field it works in...must have some overlap between civilian R&D and products...and military R&D and products. So that it can continue to make profit...even if Pak military doesn't buy its products...and instead chooses some foreign option(or from the state owned enterprises like HIT, PAC, KSEW, etc). This is why I mentioned examples like Boeing or Hyundai...bcuz they research and develop products for civilian use...but some of that inevitably ends up benefitting them in developing products for use by the military. If the military does end up buying the products of this private company...well then even better as it will make them grow further.
> 
> ...once these types of private ventures...make a foothold...they should be able to outcompete fauji minded inflexible state enterprises.
> 
> I know this discussion is going off topic from the main purpose of the thread...but I think it is a crucial discussion that we should have. Perhaps create a separate thread for it if necessary...
> ...while it's all good and fun when ppl make fun of Tejas, Arjun, etc.(products resulting from the same problems we r discussing...in their state owned entities), we ignore how fast India's private companies like Tata are making progress. They have vast amount of resources and talent...that they are gearing towards providing solutions to their military..added to that is the willingness of established defense companies(from all over the world) to make partnership with these Indian companies...in return for big orders or for JV type projects...
> ...this gives them a further jump start. If this continues...and Pakistan's private sector remains in the sorry state we r in...
> ...soon they will be laughing at our equivalents of Tejas, Arjun(or whatever our state owned entities can cook up)...all the while they will have their own equivalents of Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing, etc.
> 
> @JamD @SQ8 @S A L M A N. @Quwa @Raider 21 @Akh1112 @messiach
> @Blacklight @HRK @Dazzler


creation of civilian companies and then successful products based on the R&D by those companies would take lots of fund and time, middle path is the introduction of Civilian Management from within the Industry with high security clearance.

If we could have civilian scientist and engineers in nuclear & missile fields then why not we could replicate the same model in other fields such as Aeronautics and other

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## Cookie Monster

HRK said:


> creation of civilian companies and then successful products based on the R&D by those companies would take lots of fund and time, middle path is the introduction of Civilian Management from within the Industry with high security clearance.
> 
> If we could have civilian scientist and engineers in nuclear & missile fields then why not we could replicate the same model in other fields such as Aeronautics and other


My opinion differs slightly...in that the funding and time wouldn't be a problem if the private company isn't solely producing defense products.

For the specific goal of producing defense products...u would be hard pressed to find investors...in a country like Pakistan. It would be a huge cost...bcuz there isn't much to draw from, requirements of Pak military are often stringent, and it's not easy to setup/do business in Pakistan. It would be very discouraging...if their defense products are passed over for a Chinese equivalent(which considering the Chinese massive R&D budget and mass production...is likely to happen)...and hence foreseeing this...many would not step forward.

However...the chance is higher for investors to be interested if it is a company like Hyundai.
...as in a company for civilian consumer products...that should be given priority(by the government) over imported equivalents. This company can then branch out into making other electronics, or engines, etc. for military use...
...kind of like what we see in case of India...established giants that didn't start off with making products for the military...but now have the capital and infrastructure in place to take steps towards it.

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## M.AsfandYar

Raider 21 said:


> Just to be clear this CAE would be the College of Aeronautical Engineering correct??
> As I worked for an aerospace firm also called CAE, based in Canada


yes


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## JamD

Cookie Monster said:


> Based on what the members here are saying as per their experiences...I guess the only way out(somewhat) would be to start private companies(like for example Boeing or Hyundai but much much smaller)...
> ...where two things will be required
> 1) A few talented ppl who r willing to stay in the country and work for this company(despite income and perks being considerably less than some foreign opportunity). It would help immensely if they themselves held some stake in this company.
> 2) This company...whatever field it works in...must have some overlap between civilian R&D and products...and military R&D and products. So that it can continue to make profit...even if Pak military doesn't buy its products...and instead chooses some foreign option(or from the state owned enterprises like HIT, PAC, KSEW, etc). This is why I mentioned examples like Boeing or Hyundai...bcuz they research and develop products for civilian use...but some of that inevitably ends up benefitting them in developing products for use by the military. If the military does end up buying the products of this private company...well then even better as it will make them grow further.
> 
> ...once these types of private ventures...make a foothold...they should be able to outcompete fauji minded inflexible state enterprises.
> 
> I know this discussion is going off topic from the main purpose of the thread...but I think it is a crucial discussion that we should have. Perhaps create a separate thread for it if necessary...
> ...while it's all good and fun when ppl make fun of Tejas, Arjun, etc.(products resulting from the same problems we r discussing...in their state owned entities), we ignore how fast India's private companies like Tata are making progress. They have vast amount of resources and talent...that they are gearing towards providing solutions to their military..added to that is the willingness of established defense companies(from all over the world) to make partnership with these Indian companies...in return for big orders or for JV type projects...
> ...this gives them a further jump start. If this continues...and Pakistan's private sector remains in the sorry state we r in...
> ...soon they will be laughing at our equivalents of Tejas, Arjun(or whatever our state owned entities can cook up)...all the while they will have their own equivalents of Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing, etc.
> 
> @JamD @SQ8 @S A L M A N. @Quwa @Raider 21 @Akh1112 @messiach
> @Blacklight @HRK @Dazzler


Thank you for trying to find a solution. Most of us like to point out the problem and give up.

What you have is suggested has been on the minds of at least 30 percent of all aerospace and aerospace-adjacent grads in Pakistan. Of course there are issues with even what you suggested:
1. People who stay back and work for the company for low pay: Having worked in private Pakistani companies as an engineer the pay is going to be 30k? 50k at max? And if it's your business probably -40k indefinitely. Outisde of motivational speaker stories and movies, usually it's rich people that can afford to do these things. If my father was well established and could afford to support me till I was 30 then I too would be able to take all of those risk. A relevant quote:





2. Pakistan's economy is in general pretty bad and getting much worse. Investors are taking money out not putting it in. So it will be next to impossible to get money in the AEROSPACE sector (not talking about IT).
3. Aerospace is in general a very investment heavy sector. Which is why it has almost always been state controlled or state subsidized (at least initially). So as unfortunate as it sounds, the government does really need to make policies to support this sector and not just keep supporting the sugar mills industry. This means carrot AND stick:
a. Carrot: government orders, government subsidies, government grants.
b. Stick: Discouraging investment in unproductive sectors like real estate - but of course Malik Riaz will have the government out of power before that ever happens.
4. There is NO contract enforcement in Pakistan. This is a pretty huge factor that people don't realize. In Pakistan, if my tomorrow my partner runs away with the company's money I have little recourse. Do I really want to fight an endless battle in court till I die? Because that's what will happen. Contract enforcement is huge for business to thrive. Only very large businesses who can buy their way through things or small business that have arrangements can survive. This is primarily the reason why almost all Pakistani businesses are family businesses. You tend to trust family because things run on trust here, not on contracts.


Cookie Monster said:


> My opinion differs slightly...in that the funding and time wouldn't be a problem if the private company isn't solely producing defense products.


You would think so, right? Here are the investor's options because of the environment in Pakistan:
1. Buy a plot get 10% rate of return forever
2. Invest in a business get 0% for 5 years after which maybe 10% or the business fails.
It's a no brainer what a Pakistani with money chooses.



Cookie Monster said:


> For the specific goal of producing defense products...u would be hard pressed to find investors...in a country like Pakistan. It would be a huge cost...bcuz there isn't much to draw from, requirements of Pak military are often stringent, and it's not easy to setup/do business in Pakistan. It would be very discouraging...if their defense products are passed over for a Chinese equivalent(which considering the Chinese massive R&D budget and mass production...is likely to happen)...and hence foreseeing this...many would not step forward.


A relevant post I think:


JamD said:


> Couple of things.
> 1. For military projects I dont think the government decides any direction. I don't think a civilian government decided we needed Ra'ad or Shahpar or something. It was the military that decided it.
> 2. The military with its influence on all military production actively stifles private enterprise with the thinking being some combination of:
> a. Private military stuff is considered a security threat
> b. The military loses some money and influence it has with its monopoly over the industry.
> c. Pakistan's non existent contract enforcement system in case a private company reneges on a contract.
> d. It thinks it can do better and goes if the private sector can make it we can too so we should, why pay the private sector?
> You can see why I said Pakistani military industry is very communist in nature.
> 3. Doing research for very specific system development and changing and dropping what you're doing when the winds blow a different direction is a terrible way to do research. Little successful research work happens that way. Research requires some persistence. I don't even think that happens in our system. It would be a very stupid stupid thing to do and would be another reason to leave research to researchers rather than soldiers.
> 4. I agree ZAB was the worst thing to happen to all kinds of private enterprise in Pakistan and who knows we might have had a vibrant private defense industry had ZAB not messed it all up.


I don't think it has to do with our requirements. The mindset is "we control this and we will continue to control it". The military ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES military research by private companies by stealing their IP and having made-up security restrictions on what you can and cannot do.




Cookie Monster said:


> However...the chance is higher for investors to be interested if it is a company like Hyundai.
> ...as in a company for civilian consumer products...that should be given priority(by the government) over imported equivalents. This company can then branch out into making other electronics, or engines, etc. for military use...
> ...kind of like what we see in case of India...established giants that didn't start off with making products for the military...but now have the capital and infrastructure in place to take steps towards it.


I've already written about why Pakistan cannot have a Hyundai under the current environment.

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## JamD

Raider 21 said:


> Just to be clear this CAE would be the College of Aeronautical Engineering correct??
> As I worked for an aerospace firm also called CAE, based in Canada


Yes NUST-CAE Risalpur.

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## Cookie Monster

JamD said:


> Thank you for trying to find a solution. Most of us like to point out the problem and give up.
> 
> What you have is suggested has been on the minds of at least 30 percent of all aerospace and aerospace-adjacent grads in Pakistan. Of course there are issues with even what you suggested:
> 1. People who stay back and work for the company for low pay: Having worked in private Pakistani companies as an engineer the pay is going to be 30k? 50k at max? And if it's your business probably -40k indefinitely. Outisde of motivational speaker stories and movies, usually it's rich people that can afford to do these things. If my father was well established and could afford to support me till I was 30 then I too would be able to take all of those risk. A relevant quote:
> View attachment 786920
> 
> 2. Pakistan's economy is in general pretty bad and getting much worse. Investors are taking money out not putting it in. So it will be next to impossible to get money in the AEROSPACE sector (not talking about IT).
> 3. Aerospace is in general a very investment heavy sector. Which is why it has almost always been state controlled or state subsidized (at least initially). So as unfortunate as it sounds, the government does really need to make policies to support this sector and not just keep supporting the sugar mills industry. This means carrot AND stick:
> a. Carrot: government orders, government subsidies, government grants.
> b. Stick: Discouraging investment in unproductive sectors like real estate - but of course Malik Riaz will have the government out of power before that ever happens.
> 4. There is NO contract enforcement in Pakistan. This is a pretty huge factor that people don't realize. In Pakistan, if my tomorrow my partner runs away with the company's money I have little recourse. Do I really want to fight an endless battle in court till I die? Because that's what will happen. Contract enforcement is huge for business to thrive. Only very large businesses who can buy their way through things or small business that have arrangements can survive. This is primarily the reason why almost all Pakistani businesses are family businesses. You tend to trust family because things run on trust here, not on contracts.
> 
> You would think so, right? Here are the investor's options because of the environment in Pakistan:
> 1. Buy a plot get 10% rate of return forever
> 2. Invest in a business get 0% for 5 years after which maybe 10% or the business fails.
> It's a no brainer what a Pakistani with money chooses.
> 
> 
> A relevant post I think:
> 
> I don't think it has to do with our requirements. The mindset is "we control this and we will continue to control it". The military ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES military research by private companies by stealing their IP and having made-up security restrictions on what you can and cannot do.
> 
> 
> 
> I've already written about why Pakistan cannot have a Hyundai under the current environment.


A well thought out response. Much appreciated bcuz I have no insights in this regard(I have been away from Pakistan for a long time...my family, extended family, etc. are all here in the US)...
...so while it's insightful to know how things are done...it's also depressing. Perhaps ignorance is bliss. In any case...whatever the solution(s) maybe...Pakistan needs the private sector to be working in tandem with the military...
...I fear in a few decades we will see India's private sector bloom(the companies that are just starting to venture into defense products)...and that is worrisome.

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## JamD

Cookie Monster said:


> ...I fear in a few decades we will see India's private sector bloom(the companies that are just starting to venture into defense products)...and that is worrisome.


Exactly! Something tells me even then the forum will remain in denial and call everything they do substandard/copy etc.

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## Pak Nationalist

JamD said:


> Thank you for trying to find a solution. Most of us like to point out the problem and give up.
> 
> What you have is suggested has been on the minds of at least 30 percent of all aerospace and aerospace-adjacent grads in Pakistan. Of course there are issues with even what you suggested:
> 1. People who stay back and work for the company for low pay: Having worked in private Pakistani companies as an engineer the pay is going to be 30k? 50k at max? And if it's your business probably -40k indefinitely. Outisde of motivational speaker stories and movies, usually it's rich people that can afford to do these things. If my father was well established and could afford to support me till I was 30 then I too would be able to take all of those risk. A relevant quote:
> View attachment 786920
> 
> 2. Pakistan's economy is in general pretty bad and getting much worse. Investors are taking money out not putting it in. So it will be next to impossible to get money in the AEROSPACE sector (not talking about IT).
> 3. Aerospace is in general a very investment heavy sector. Which is why it has almost always been state controlled or state subsidized (at least initially). So as unfortunate as it sounds, the government does really need to make policies to support this sector and not just keep supporting the sugar mills industry. This means carrot AND stick:
> a. Carrot: government orders, government subsidies, government grants.
> b. Stick: Discouraging investment in unproductive sectors like real estate - but of course Malik Riaz will have the government out of power before that ever happens.
> 4. There is NO contract enforcement in Pakistan. This is a pretty huge factor that people don't realize. In Pakistan, if my tomorrow my partner runs away with the company's money I have little recourse. Do I really want to fight an endless battle in court till I die? Because that's what will happen. Contract enforcement is huge for business to thrive. Only very large businesses who can buy their way through things or small business that have arrangements can survive. This is primarily the reason why almost all Pakistani businesses are family businesses. You tend to trust family because things run on trust here, not on contracts.
> 
> You would think so, right? Here are the investor's options because of the environment in Pakistan:
> 1. Buy a plot get 10% rate of return forever
> 2. Invest in a business get 0% for 5 years after which maybe 10% or the business fails.
> It's a no brainer what a Pakistani with money chooses.
> 
> 
> A relevant post I think:
> 
> I don't think it has to do with our requirements. The mindset is "we control this and we will continue to control it". The military ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES military research by private companies by stealing their IP and having made-up security restrictions on what you can and cannot do.
> 
> 
> 
> I've already written about why Pakistan cannot have a Hyundai under the current environment.


It all shrinks down to economics and always. Those afflicted by problems of hunger and familial murderous conflicts (civil-military tug of war in the country) do not have the luxury (resources or focus) to aspire for the stuff that actually matters. This country's redemption lies in economic growth backed by a sustainable political system where some ground rules are beyond being trampled over no matter how powerful any institution is. 

A side note, some of the people on this very thread have alluded to PAF working on some ground-shaking stuff and people would find about it one day. There appears to be some contradiction however when the same people specify deep troubles in the institutions that are responsible for developing solutions. I wonder if those comments are sarcastic in nature because, with the institutional cultures defined in the comments above, it is unrealistic to expect something of note like homegrown SSCMs, SAMs, BVRAAMs, EW/ECM suites, etc coming out of these organizations.

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## Adecypher

Well this the kind of thread which I was looking for a long time. I will definitely give a deep dive into the info presented in the OP and might ask few questions.


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## Metal 0-1

@JamD Can you provide me the SWOT(Strength Weakness Opportunities Threats) analysis of PAC or any other related organization.

For a college project.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pak Nationalist said:


> It all shrinks down to economics and always. Those afflicted by problems of hunger and familial murderous conflicts (civil-military tug of war in the country) do not have the luxury (resources or focus) to aspire for the stuff that actually matters. This country's redemption lies in economic growth backed by a sustainable political system where some ground rules are beyond being trampled over no matter how powerful any institution is.
> 
> A side note, some of the people on this very thread have alluded to PAF working on some ground-shaking stuff and people would find about it one day. There appears to be some contradiction however when the same people specify deep troubles in the institutions that are responsible for developing solutions. I wonder if those comments are sarcastic in nature because, with the institutional cultures defined in the comments above, it is unrealistic to expect something of note like homegrown SSCMs, SAMs, BVRAAMs, EW/ECM suites, etc coming out of these organizations.


I'd say the PAF, at an operational level, is trying to work on 'ground-breaking' stuff, but through imports from China. The domestic R&D base isn't doing much to support those aspirations.

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## JamD

Metal 0-1 said:


> @JamD Can you provide me the SWOT(Strength Weakness Opportunities Threats) analysis of PAC or any other related organization.
> 
> For a college project.


It would be an interesting excercise but unfortunately these are some very busy days for me. I'm sure all the information one would need is scattered around the forum in posts by members that you can trust. You will have to do the actual compilation yourself since I'm pretty swamped with work.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd say the PAF, at an operational level, is trying to work on 'ground-breaking' stuff, but through imports from China. The domestic R&D base isn't doing much to support those aspirations.


Just to add some context to this observation.

PAF used to have AWC to do R&D. However, with the establishment of NESCOM, AWC was put under it. This took away PAF's "R&D arm". PAF was left with PAC, which is a manufacturing/overhaul arm with limited R&D capacity. There was an R&D shaped hole in the PAF that AvRID hoped to fill. AvRID is struggling to do this for the following reasons:
1. AvRID has to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things and information/tech doesn't flow freely between the SPD AWC and PAF AvRID.
2. AvRID's future is uncertain in the eyes of the PAF high command and thus its civillian employees are on annual contracts. This isn't great for talent retention but this isn't such a huge deal, just an indicator.
3. "AvRID's ego is writing checks that it's R&D cannot cash"  It has aimed for the stars but it isn't nearly as funded or have enough across the board buy in.
4. There are opponents to AvRID inside of PAF itself.

However, I think AvRID is a break from the norm (in several important R&D aspects) that should survive at all costs, regardless of what (if anything) it produces. But I fear that it might be axed primarily because it is so different and there's a major mismatch in goals/capabilities, which will lead to terrible performance reviews for it.

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## Metal 0-1

JamD said:


> It would be an interesting excercise but unfortunately these are some very busy days for me. I'm sure all the information one would need is scattered around the forum in posts by members that you can trust. You will have to do the actual compilation yourself since I'm pretty swamped with work.


Just guide me in good direction


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Just to add some context to this observation.
> 
> PAF used to have AWC to do R&D. However, with the establishment of NESCOM, AWC was put under it. This took away PAF's "R&D arm". PAF was left with PAC, which is a manufacturing/overhaul arm with limited R&D capacity. There was an R&D shaped hole in the PAF that AvRID hoped to fill. AvRID is struggling to do this for the following reasons:
> 1. AvRID has to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things and information/tech doesn't flow freely between the SPD AWC and PAF AvRID.
> 2. AvRID's future is uncertain in the eyes of the PAF high command and thus its civillian employees are on annual contracts. This isn't great for talent retention but this isn't such a huge deal, just an indicator.
> 3. "AvRID's ego is writing checks that it's R&D cannot cash"  It has aimed for the stars but it isn't nearly as funded or have enough across the board buy in.
> 4. There are opponents to AvRID inside of PAF itself.
> 
> However, I think AvRID is a break from the norm (in several important R&D aspects) that should survive at all costs, regardless of what (if anything) it produces. But I fear that it might be axed primarily because it is so different and there's a major mismatch in goals/capabilities, which will lead to terrible performance reviews for it.


Ideally, they'd restructure AvRID into a skunkworks for feasible R&D goals. So, instead of going all-in on a NGFA, they'd focus on very specific inputs (e.g., materials science for airframe parts) or smaller projects, like munitions and drones.

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## JamD

Metal 0-1 said:


> Just guide me in good direction


Read from








Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.


What you truly need is a working economy and the private sector participating in developing such tech. No military does it's own R&D and produces the top line equipment as they are always under a budget. They rather pay advanced organizations who create jobs and have a talent pool, to come up...



defence.pk




to








Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.


The only consortium interested (Turkey) wants Pakistan for economies-of-scale (i.e., a healthy PAF order). In fact, they don't have a reason to let Pakistan in except that this is a high-risk project and that (for the time being) Turkey is okay with being nice. However, the accommodating...



defence.pk




for a lot of detail on Azm specific discussion.


Here for some general discussion on SPD R&D:








The Real Threat to Pakistan’s National Security – Part 1


Author Profile: Syed Aseem Ul Islam is PhD candidate at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, USA, specializing in adaptive and model-predictive flight control systems. He received his bachelor’s ...




quwa.org












The Real Threat to Pakistan’s National Security – Part 2


Author Profile: Syed Aseem Ul Islam is PhD candidate at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, USA, specializing in adaptive and model-predictive flight control systems. He received his bachelor’s ...




quwa.org












The Real Threat to Pakistan’s National Security – Part 3


In parts one and two we discussed the various policy and administrative measures that could be taken to rescue Pakistan’s R&D capability from a dangerous slump. Where part-two discussed manageme...




quwa.org

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## Warking

JamD said:


> *Autonomous terrain-following for unmanned air vehicles*
> Work on Burraq UCAV
> View attachment 786506
> 
> Flight envelope for Burraq WOW:
> View attachment 786507
> 
> View attachment 786509
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Runway Detection and Localization in Aerial Images Using Deep Learning *
> and
> *Automated Military Vehicle Detection from Low-Altitude Aerial_Images*
> 
> Some fun work done at National Center of Artificial Intelligence (NCAI)


Are these actual files if so shouldn't it be classified i dont want black vigo at my door.


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## JamD

Warking said:


> Are these actual files if so shouldn't it be classified i dont want black vigo at my door.


These are papers published on the internet in journals and conferences. I didn't find and post anything classified.


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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> He said from day one the cadets were taught they were better than everyone and the cadets never made him forget it. There were different bathrooms for cadets and civilians.


Norm everywhere. Specially for cadets. Motivation and confidence is part of military training and rightly so. Same happens in US military academies. These cadets most probably wake up at 5 am, get roughed up in PT. Chewed out by many, even before civilian woke up and start brushing his teeth.


Bratva said:


> On a positive note, Civilians in Pentagon/American Military faces the same issues
> 
> Ex Pentagon Software Chief resignation note. He resigned due to the same fauji mindset being discussed here
> "
> In his resignation announcement, too, he did not reveal his disappointment with the way Pentagon functions.* "Please stop putting a Major or Lt Col. (despite their devotion, exceptional attitude, and culture) in charge of ICAM, Zero Trust or Cloud for 1 to 4 million users when they have no previous experience in that field* – we are setting up critical infrastructure to fail. We would not put a pilot in the cockpit without extensive flight training; why would we expect someone with no IT experience to be close to successful? They do not know what to execute on or what to prioritize which leads to endless risk reduction efforts and diluted focus," he had written."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US has already lost to China in AI fight, says ex-Pentagon software chief
> 
> 
> US has already lost to China in AI fight, says ex-Pentagon software chief “We have no competing fighting chance against China in 15 to 20 years. Right now, it’s already a done deal; it is already over in my opinion,” the 37-year-old first chief software office for the US Air Force said...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Military brought in experts from civilian world to work for them. At no point in time they release their authority or responsibility to them. Most civilians don’t realize, they may not know the bigger picture for the project that the guy in uniform is aware off.

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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> I look at SUPARCO and they had different bathrooms for officers and "others".


That’s how it is in US military. Bathrooms are almost always divided by Office/enlisted ( or civilian grade equivalent). Sometimes maintain security level for projects of different classifications.

Similarly, mess hall will have 3 different marked areas for enlisted, non-commissioned and commissioned officers. As a matter of fact, I even noticed disparity in food service at the mess line.

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## Pak Nationalist

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd say the PAF, at an operational level, is trying to work on 'ground-breaking' stuff, but through imports from China. The domestic R&D base isn't doing much to support those aspirations.


So basically, procuring turnkey solutions, not developing them at home.


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## JamD

Genghis khan1 said:


> Norm everywhere. Specially for cadets. Motivation and confidence is part of military training and rightly so. Same happens in US military academies. These cadets most probably wake up at 5 am, get roughed up in PT. Chewed out by many, even before civilian woke up and start brushing his teeth.


Norm sure. Is it right to treat noncadets poorly regardless (and sometimes because of) of their *academic achievement in a university*? I don't think so.



Genghis khan1 said:


> Military brought in experts from civilian world to work for them. At no point in time they release their authority or responsibility to them. Most civilians don’t realize, they may not know the bigger picture for the project that the guy in uniform is aware off.


I don't agree with your assertions. How are Raytheon and Lockmart working on the most cutting edge of research then? Headed by the US military? No.




Genghis khan1 said:


> That’s how it is in US military. Bathrooms are almost always divided by Office/enlisted ( or civilian grade equivalent). Sometimes maintain security level for projects of different classifications.
> 
> Similarly, mess hall will have 3 different marked areas for enlisted, non-commissioned and commissioned officers. As a matter of fact, I even noticed disparity in food service at the mess line.


Yes in a military set up that is expected. My point is that you don't want to deal with gora sahb bloody civilian crap while you're trying to do R&D.

I understand that the theme of your posts is about how this is normal and ok by comparing to the US but I disagree with your theme because comparisons between US and Pakistan are very very problematic:
1. The US military isn't the gora sahb of the US. The Pakistani military is.
2. Majority of military R&D in the US happens in private sector. Little to no R&D happens in the private sector in Pakistan.
3. You won't step into Raytheon and suddenly civilians and US Army people have better bathrooms, mess lines etc.
4. Civillians also have morale and the kind of gora sahb afsar bloody civilian mentality that we see in Pakistan's almost exclusively military run R&D setups does terrible things for it.

So I think the problems that I was pointing out are real problems that affect our R&D capacity in meaningful ways.

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## TsAr

JamD said:


> Just to add some context to this observation.
> 
> PAF used to have AWC to do R&D. However, with the establishment of NESCOM, AWC was put under it. This took away PAF's "R&D arm". PAF was left with PAC, which is a manufacturing/overhaul arm with limited R&D capacity. There was an R&D shaped hole in the PAF that AvRID hoped to fill. AvRID is struggling to do this for the following reasons:
> 1. AvRID has to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things and information/tech doesn't flow freely between the SPD AWC and PAF AvRID.
> 2. AvRID's future is uncertain in the eyes of the PAF high command and thus its civillian employees are on annual contracts. This isn't great for talent retention but this isn't such a huge deal, just an indicator.
> 3. "AvRID's ego is writing checks that it's R&D cannot cash"  It has aimed for the stars but it isn't nearly as funded or have enough across the board buy in.
> 4. There are opponents to AvRID inside of PAF itself.
> 
> However, I think AvRID is a break from the norm (in several important R&D aspects) that should survive at all costs, regardless of what (if anything) it produces. But I fear that it might be axed primarily because it is so different and there's a major mismatch in goals/capabilities, which will lead to terrible performance reviews for it.


not sure if AWC is under Nescom, will have to check on it, but AWC projects are totally independent of Nescom.

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## JamD

TsAr said:


> not sure if AWC is under Nescom, will have to check on it, but AWC projects are totally independent of Nescom.


AWC is definitely a part of NESCOM but you are right that they sort of do their own thing.

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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> Norm sure. Is it right to treat noncadets poorly regardless (and sometimes because of) of their *academic achievement in a university*? I don't think so.


Something is not adding up. What is guy with a academic achievement doing between cadets. I think we are talking about civilian guy attending military run technical school or something. If Mr. Civilian is so eager to join the cadet, than he should show up to evening formation for a night of scrubbing bathroom corners with toothbrush. Be ready for white glove inspection the next morning.


JamD said:


> The US military isn't the gora sahb of the US. The Pakistani military is.


This issue isn’t limited to military. Judge sahib, AC sahib. MNA/MPA sahib, Bureaucrat sahib everyone is a sahib Gee in Pakistan. Only difference is, if you challenge any other Sahib, they will send their bodyguards thugs or police to your house and teach you a lesson. Fauji don’t do that.
On a side note, haqeeqt b kuch yhi hy, if you give someone a helping hand and pull them up, or lower your self to be friendly, wo app ky hi sar per char ker joota Mry ga.



JamD said:


> You won't step into Raytheon and suddenly civilians and US Army people have better bathrooms, mess lines etc.


These two are supposedly private corporations and public traded companies. Although in reality they are extension of US govt (military industries complex). I don’t think there are any cadet or uniform personnel in cooperations.




JamD said:


> Civillians also have morale and the kind of gora sahb afsar bloody civilian mentality that we see in Pakistan's almost exclusively military run R&D setups does terrible things for it.


I don’t know what is the reality behind this allegation. First time I heard this term was through TV by Hamid mir. Only other time I heard this was from newly immigrated brother, who turn out got in fight with some boys (military brats) outside bahria college for boys Islamabad. Now they can’t stop bad mouthing military. Btw the way, term like nasty, weak or disgusting civilian is wide use in US military academies to indoctrinate cadets/recruits into new transformed lifestyle of military.





Although this is a movie, but this part was not scripted. Lee Emry was Drill Instructor (retired) in real life, and was told to do what he did in Boot camp. 

Actually military is the driving factor behind all the cutting edge breakthroughs in US. For e.g: *DARPA. *Pakistan issue isn’t captain or colonel sahib, Pakistan high education system and universities failed to produce scientists and researchers. Those that are some what capable, would caught the first flight abroad as soon as opportunity arises. I know at least two engineers, one trained at PAF institution for PIA, other by Nescom. They did their mandatory 2-3 years after graduating, than off to Middle East. Now one is in Australia and other one is in UK.

Thanks to credential from military institutions, Both found a decent run ristha (doctors), and job offer abroad. Meanwhile their fellow cadet in Uniform most probably graduated and still serving their country with whatever pay they get.

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## Goritoes

After a long time, a thread that goes above my head  really that is what PDF should be

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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> However, I have tried getting Pakistani students into good PhD programs using my connections - however, the only people who got in touch were subpar students who weren't able to find other jobs in Pakistan so I couldn't, in good conscience, recommend them.


Btw, it’s not uncommon for students here in US to pursue Ms or PhD programs because they couldn’t find a job. Hardest part of college education is the first 4 years.


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## JamD

Genghis khan1 said:


> Something is not adding up. What is guy with a academic achievement doing between cadets. I think we are talking about civilian guy attending military run technical school or something. If Mr. Civilian is so eager to join the cadet, than he should show up to evening formation for a night of scrubbing bathroom corners with toothbrush. Be ready for white glove inspection the next morning.


I think you're missing some vital info here. We are discussing CAE Risalpur, which is a part of NUST. You can enroll at NUST CAE Risalpur as a civilian. In Pakistan, if you wanted to get a degree in aeronautical/aerospace there are only 2 places (of any repute) that you can go to - it used to be just 1 before 2002. So this "guy with academic achievement" like many other aspiring aerospace people in Pakistan have little choice but to end up at either IST or CAE. Rest assured, more and more people are ending up at IST exactly because of how civilians are treated at CAE. Just because you want a degree in aerspace does not mean you want to be treated like a cadet.





Genghis khan1 said:


> This issue isn’t limited to military. Judge sahib, AC sahib. MNA/MPA sahib, Bureaucrat sahib everyone is a sahib Gee in Pakistan. Only difference is, if you challenge any other Sahib, they will send their bodyguards thugs or police to your house and teach you a lesson. Fauji don’t do that.
> On a side note, haqeeqt b kuch yhi hy, if you give someone a helping hand and pull them up, or lower your self to be friendly, wo app ky hi sar per char ker joota Mry ga.


Yes, I agree and made that point already. However, this thread and this discussion is about military R&D that is exclusively managed by military gora sahb.



Genghis khan1 said:


> This issue isn’t limited to military. Judge sahib, AC sahib. MNA/MPA sahib, Bureaucrat sahib everyone is a sahib Gee in Pakistan. Only difference is, if you challenge any other Sahib, they will send their bodyguards thugs or police to your house and teach you a lesson. *Fauji don’t do that.*


Do you not even know about black vigos? It has literally become a joke lol.





Genghis khan1 said:


> These two are *supposedly *private corporations and public traded companies. Although in reality they are extension of US govt (military industries complex).


These are not "supposedly" private companies. They ARE private companies. They work closely with the US government in a way that is hard for us to imagine. The military industrial complex is a dangerous thing especially because it ends up controlling the government instead of being controlled by it. How is it such a dangerous thing if its an extension of the US govt?



Genghis khan1 said:


> I don’t think there are any cadet or uniform personnel in cooperations.


Yes, exactly. That was my point. You can work on military R&D in the US (and hundreds of thousands do) without being in a military set up where they have to be treated like "others".







Genghis khan1 said:


> I don’t know what is the reality behind this allegation. First time I heard this term was through TV by Hamid mir. Only other time I heard this was from newly immigrated brother, who turn out got in fight with some boys (military brats) outside bahria college for boys Islamabad. Now they can’t stop bad mouthing military.


Sure, I'm just a guy on a forum. Maybe talk to 5-10 AM-manager level engineers in SPD organizations of what I (and several others here) are saying. I'm not going to convince you, I'm just a guy on a forum. And this isn't about "can't stop bad mouthing military". This is about real problems that require solutions. Our military suffers from the same cultural issues as our entire society. In the sphere of military R&D the fingers naturally point to them because they are in charge.




Genghis khan1 said:


> Btw the way, term like nasty, weak or disgusting civilian is wide use in US military academies to indoctrinate cadets/recruits into new transformed lifestyle of military.


And this is relevant to this thread how? The story wasn't about someone who went to Kakul. This was just a guy that wanted to get an aerospace degree. I think I'm repeating myself now. We're not communicating well.





Genghis khan1 said:


> Actually military is the driving factor behind all the cutting edge breakthroughs in US. For e.g: *DARPA. *


Vehemently disagree. The money, sure. But the breakthroughs are made by private companies. Even DARPA FUNDS private companies.



Genghis khan1 said:


> *Pakistan issue isn’t captain or colonel sahib,* Pakistan high education system and universities failed to produce scientists and researchers.


It literally is. Officers treating R&D organizations like military units and all the good scientists and engineers leaving. 




Genghis khan1 said:


> Those that are some what capable, would caught the first flight abroad as soon as opportunity arises. I know at least two engineers, one trained at PAF institution for PIA, other by Nescom. They did their mandatory 2-3 years after graduating, than off to Middle East. Now one is in Australia and other one is in UK.


You're helping my point. Why did these capable people leave? Is leaving your home easy? Wouldn't most people choose to live at home if they had the some semblance of sanity?




Genghis khan1 said:


> Thanks to credential from military institutions, Both found a decent run ristha (doctors), and job offer abroad. Meanwhile their fellow cadet in Uniform most probably graduated and still serving their country with whatever pay they get.


What can I say to this. Not sure what the point is. Military is good rishta making machine so I shouldn't say they manage military R&D badly. What?


Genghis khan1 said:


> Btw, it’s not uncommon for students here in US to pursue Ms or PhD programs because they couldn’t find a job. Hardest part of college education is the first 4 years.


I didn't get good candidates. What does US students pursuing Ms and PhD programs have to do with that? Again you're comparing US and Pakistan, literally sitting on two extremes.

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## AeroEngineer

Reading some of the posts, just some thoughts. Part of the rationale given in the past about same treatment of civilians and cadets at CAE was that the grading system was based on bell curve. If civilians were day scholars and not subjected to the same “extra-curricular activities “ then military cadets would suffer in grading. I don’t agree with the rationale as underlying reason is different in my opinion. NUST civilian students may have a different experience recently, if the posts convey the story, since obviously they did not sign up for this harsh treatment and probably are not briefed for this. Civil-military divide in the society apart, most of the academies the world over are geared towards pumping up the egos of their cadets to fill them with pride on joining the ranks and serving the country. This obviously can make it a somewhat toxic environment in a place full of 16-18 year olds bursting with testosterone who are given authority over others. This hazing rightly or wrongly has become an institutional rite of passage. Thankfully due to regulations, and some societal norms this remains within some bounds (and not like the horror stories you hear in news sometimes from round the world even in civil institutions). 
Part of scraping through this supposed ordeal is also on part of individuals attitude, if they consider that if life gives you lemons you make lemonade. You have to have a thick skin to not let comments about being a civilian get to you. There was sustained period in the mid-90s where civilians were consistently getting the top coveted awards. In short yes it may not be ideal civilian learning environment but what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. The extra pressures help you figure out how to most efficiently use the available time. Many of the civilian graduates of CAE have gone on to prestigious universities abroad like MIT, Stanford, UT, Cranfield etc.

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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> I didn't get good candidates. What does US students pursuing Ms and PhD programs have to do with that? Again you're comparing US and Pakistan, literally sitting on two extremes.


Try rereading your comment and than my reply and see if you can figure out the contexts before adding “_have to do with that_” with every sentence. You set the benchmark/ the reasoning and made the statement _“*subpar* students who weren't able to find other in Pakistan” . _What does someone not find a job in market like Pakistan has to do with him continuing his education. I am literally working with students, pursing MS and Doctorate, because they couldn’t get a job.

You graduate from a Pakistani institution, was than worked and trained by a Pakistani institution. Be able to get a job abroad based on same credentials, still you think their undergraduate levels are on two different extremes. Guess what, I can find you two engineering college in same US State with two different level of college graduate.


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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> You're helping my point. Why did these capable people leave? Is leaving your home easy? Wouldn't most people choose to live at home if they had the some semblance of sanity?


Intent over here is not points scoring, you should be able to see the other side . Your premise that situation in SPD is so horrendous that engineers are leaving abroad to quench their thirst for scientific breakthroughs, is the biggest baloney I ever heard. They all left economic reasons, the two engineers I mentioned, one is working for airlines as fleet manger and other photography and stationery business with his brother in UK.

Ask Tahir Qadari or Hussain Haqqani about them moving abroad, and they will have 101 suggestions and complaints about how things are in Pakistan.


JamD said:


> What can I say to this. Not sure what the point is. Military is good rishta making machine so I shouldn't say they manage military R&D badly. What?


Again context.


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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> Norm sure. Is it right to treat noncadets poorly regardless (and sometimes because of) of their *academic achievement in a university*? I don't think so.


Not allowing them to piss in same bathroom is treating them bad? Do they make non cadets sleep on floor, reduce their rations, hang them upside down? What proof do you have that they treat other students disparately because of their academic achievements?


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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> Sure, I'm just a guy on a forum. Maybe talk to 5-10 AM-manager level engineers in SPD organizations of what I (and several others here) are saying. I'm not going to convince you, I'm just a guy on a forum. And this isn't about "can't stop bad mouthing military". This is about real problems that require solutions. Our military suffers from the same cultural issues as our entire society. In the sphere of military R&D the fingers naturally point to them because they are in charge.






JamD said:


> Do you not even know about black vigos? It has literally become a joke lol.



Actually I do know some of them. Also spend weekend on سونمیانی during my last visit. No I don’t know about black vigos, neither anyone ever mentioned them to me in Pakistan.

Every country take their national security seriously Recently FBI caught a Chinese-American researcher in MD Anderson cancer hospital. FBI litterly had a camera installed over his dining table at home (US citizen for 3 decades or so).

All I have to tell you, Welcome to America. Don’t get carried away, Abhi kafi kuch dekna hy.
Remember, soon you will hit a ceiling, beyond which you will not be allowed to proceed. Your foreign background and extended family abroad is a automatic disqualifier for any meaningful post in defense industry. Alteast you don’t have to worry about that in Pakistan.


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## Genghis khan1

JamD said:


> Vehemently disagree. The money, sure. But the breakthroughs are made by private companies. Even DARPA FUNDS private companies.





JamD said:


> It literally is. Officers treating R&D organizations like military units and all the good scientists and engineers leaving.


Read about DARPA history and evolution as a research organization, most of their stuff is classified and we may never know about it. These are military run and manned organizations, they bring in SME from different industries as needed. They give contracts to companies for specific task, because those companies are already industry leader in that technology. At no point on time a single person or outside company will know the true nature of the whole project or research.


Sure, Different military branches fund research projects in Universities to develop new technologies to fulfill certain requirements. Doesn’t mean they will outsource, research for stuff like Navy Nuclear propulsion. It’s a military project and school, similarly,Technologies developed by NSA to spy on the world. Every day 40,000 military and civilian drive to work under watch eye of a general.

Meet Admiral Hyman George Rickover, father of Navy Nuclear propulsion. He was tasked to deliver the impossible “Nuclear powered Subs”. While he was interviewing candidates for the mission at task, He order one candidate to go and stand in small closet in his office, and close the door. Candidate stayed there the whole day. This was his way to check how serious is the candidate for research project. one of many stories. Military has a different culture, because they have bigger picture in mind. Someone here mentioned he refused job offer because, PAF interviewer was asking questions or eyeballing him. If this hurts his feelings, than he should not have applied for a job or institution run by military. Tomorrow while working on a classified project, sometime else will hurt his feelings and he will caught a first flight to “Hurt feeling dept” inside US, Indian or British embassy.





__





Rickover, Hyman G.


Hyman G. Rickover was born in Poland on 27 January 1900, just a few months before the American submarine force came into existence. He graduated from the Naval Academy in 1922 and served on board USS LaVallette and USS Nevada until he returned to the Academy for postgraduate education in...




www.history.navy.mil


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## JamD

Genghis khan1 said:


> Try rereading your comment and than my reply and see if you can figure out the contexts before adding “_have to do with that_” with every sentence. You set the benchmark/ the reasoning and made the statement _“*subpar* students who weren't able to find other in Pakistan” . _What does someone not find a job in market like Pakistan has to do with him continuing his education. I am literally working with students, pursing MS and Doctorate, because they couldn’t get a job.
> 
> You graduate from a Pakistani institution, was than worked and trained by a Pakistani institution. Be able to get a job abroad based on same credentials, still you think their undergraduate levels are on two different extremes. Guess what, I can find you two engineering college in same US State with two different level of college graduate.





Genghis khan1 said:


> Intent over here is not points scoring, you should be able to see the other side . Your premise that situation in SPD is so horrendous that engineers are leaving abroad to quench their thirst for scientific breakthroughs, is the biggest baloney I ever heard. They all left economic reasons, the two engineers I mentioned, one is working for airlines as fleet manger and other photography and stationery business with his brother in UK.
> 
> Ask Tahir Qadari or Hussain Haqqani about them moving abroad, and they will have 101 suggestions and complaints about how things are in Pakistan.
> 
> Again context.





Genghis khan1 said:


> Not allowing them to piss in same bathroom is treating them bad? Do they make non cadets sleep on floor, reduce their rations, hang them upside down? What proof do you have that they treat other students disparately because of their academic achievements?





Genghis khan1 said:


> Actually I do know some of them. Also spend weekend on سونمیانی during my last visit. No I don’t know about black vigos, neither anyone ever mentioned them to me in Pakistan.
> 
> Every country take their national security seriously Recently FBI caught a Chinese-American researcher in MD Anderson cancer hospital. FBI litterly had a camera installed over his dining table at home (US citizen for 3 decades or so).
> 
> All I have to tell you, Welcome to America. Don’t get carried away, Abhi kafi kuch dekna hy.
> Remember, soon you will hit a ceiling, beyond which you will not be allowed to proceed. Your foreign background and extended family abroad is a automatic disqualifier for any meaningful post in defense industry. Alteast you don’t have to worry about that in Pakistan.





Genghis khan1 said:


> Read about DARPA history and evolution as a research organization, most of their stuff is classified and we may never know about it. These are military run and manned organizations, they bring in SME from different industries as needed. They give contracts to companies for specific task, because those companies are already industry leader in that technology. At no point on time a single person or outside company will know the true nature of the whole project or research.
> 
> 
> Sure, Different military branches fund research projects in Universities to develop new technologies to fulfill certain requirements. Doesn’t mean they will outsource, research for stuff like Navy Nuclear propulsion. It’s a military project and school, similarly,Technologies developed by NSA to spy on the world. Every day 40,000 military and civilian drive to work under watch eye of a general.
> 
> Meet Admiral Hyman George Rickover, father of Navy Nuclear propulsion. He was tasked to deliver the impossible “Nuclear powered Subs”. While he was interviewing candidates for the mission at task, He order one candidate to go and stand in small closet in his office, and close the door. Candidate stayed there the whole day. This was his way to check how serious is the candidate for research project. one of many stories. Military has a different culture, because they have bigger picture in mind. Someone here mentioned he refused job offer because, PAF interviewer was asking questions or eyeballing him. If this hurts his feelings, than he should not have applied for a job or institution run by military. Tomorrow while working on a classified project, sometime else will hurt his feelings and he will caught a first flight to “Hurt feeling dept” inside US, Indian or British embassy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rickover, Hyman G.
> 
> 
> Hyman G. Rickover was born in Poland on 27 January 1900, just a few months before the American submarine force came into existence. He graduated from the Naval Academy in 1922 and served on board USS LaVallette and USS Nevada until he returned to the Academy for postgraduate education in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.history.navy.mil


I could try replying to all that you have said but I will excuse myself. Sorry. I know it is unfair to you that you spent time. However, I think this debate has reached a point of diminishing returns. To me you are negating decades of my personal experience and that of my closest friends and colleagues (I am from aerospace in case you haven't guessed already). To you I'm just a guy on the internet. Fair enough. You are not going to convince me because that would require me to forget all of my experiences and that of my friends. Clearly, I am not convincing you. Readers can read both sides of the argument, do their own investigations, and decide what's right. This thread titled "Research Papers: Pakistan Aerospace Technologies," that I have spent a lot of time curating has been derailed enough by our debtate in my opinion. I appreciate your time and effort and would appreciate if you can contribute to this thread in its spirit with any research that you find. Thanks.

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## S.Y.A

Genghis khan1 said:


> Read about DARPA history and evolution as a research organization, most of their stuff is classified and we may never know about it. These are military run and manned organizations, they bring in SME from different industries as needed. They give contracts to companies for specific task, because those companies are already industry leader in that technology. At no point on time a single person or outside company will know the true nature of the whole project or research.
> 
> 
> Sure, Different military branches fund research projects in Universities to develop new technologies to fulfill certain requirements. Doesn’t mean they will outsource, research for stuff like Navy Nuclear propulsion. It’s a military project and school, similarly,Technologies developed by NSA to spy on the world. Every day 40,000 military and civilian drive to work under watch eye of a general.
> 
> Meet Admiral Hyman George Rickover, father of Navy Nuclear propulsion. He was tasked to deliver the impossible “Nuclear powered Subs”. While he was interviewing candidates for the mission at task, He order one candidate to go and stand in small closet in his office, and close the door. Candidate stayed there the whole day. This was his way to check how serious is the candidate for research project. one of many stories. Military has a different culture, because they have bigger picture in mind. Someone here mentioned he refused job offer because, PAF interviewer was asking questions or eyeballing him. If this hurts his feelings, than he should not have applied for a job or institution run by military. Tomorrow while working on a classified project, sometime else will hurt his feelings and he will caught a first flight to “Hurt feeling dept” inside US, Indian or British embassy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rickover, Hyman G.
> 
> 
> Hyman G. Rickover was born in Poland on 27 January 1900, just a few months before the American submarine force came into existence. He graduated from the Naval Academy in 1922 and served on board USS LaVallette and USS Nevada until he returned to the Academy for postgraduate education in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.history.navy.mil


your example of darpa or nuclear propulsion doesnt fit here. talking to to a couple of people here and there isnt going to change the reality. generals are not good at everything. no one is denying the importance of security. its the environment, that restricts research and innovation and promotes TC culture, that is under criticism here. outsourcing, if done to a local company, is okay, but importing parts from china, turkey or elsewhere and just slapping your name and logo on top of it is not the way to go.


JamD said:


> Just to add some context to this observation.
> 
> PAF used to have AWC to do R&D. However, with the establishment of NESCOM, AWC was put under it. This took away PAF's "R&D arm". PAF was left with PAC, which is a manufacturing/overhaul arm with limited R&D capacity. There was an R&D shaped hole in the PAF that AvRID hoped to fill. AvRID is struggling to do this for the following reasons:
> 1. AvRID has to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things and information/tech doesn't flow freely between the SPD AWC and PAF AvRID.
> 2. AvRID's future is uncertain in the eyes of the PAF high command and thus its civillian employees are on annual contracts. This isn't great for talent retention but this isn't such a huge deal, just an indicator.
> 3. "AvRID's ego is writing checks that it's R&D cannot cash"  It has aimed for the stars but it isn't nearly as funded or have enough across the board buy in.
> 4. There are opponents to AvRID inside of PAF itself.
> 
> However, I think AvRID is a break from the norm (in several important R&D aspects) that should survive at all costs, regardless of what (if anything) it produces. But I fear that it might be axed primarily because it is so different and there's a major mismatch in goals/capabilities, which will lead to terrible performance reviews for it.


there are murmurs of it being wrapped up. AWC should never have been cut off, and even if it was put under nescom, it should have collaborated and coordinated with PAC.

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## S.Y.A

also, on one hand people talk about how private industry's involvement in def production is the way to go, but at the same time forces look upon private companies with scorn and as something beneath them, and at the same time try to concentrate as much of the supply chain under own org/setups as possible. its killing the private industry.

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## JamD

S.Y.A said:


> there are murmurs of it being wrapped up. AWC should never have been cut off, and even if it was put under nescom, it should have collaborated and coordinated with PAC.


Yes I have heard those murmurs too. And agreed on your point.


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## S.Y.A

JamD said:


> Yes I have heard those murmurs too. And agreed on your point.


politics and inter-departmental rivalries eff up a lot of things.


Genghis khan1 said:


> Military brought in experts from civilian world to work for them. At no point in time they release their authority or responsibility to them. Most civilians don’t realize, they may not know the bigger picture for the project that the guy in uniform is aware off.


In Pakistan, it was civilians who brought in civilians to develop the nuclear program, it was civilians who setup suparco and spearheaded our rocket research, and it was the civilians at krl who were able to bring and improve the liquid fueled ballistic missile. all of that was done keeping in mind Pakistan's national security, but at no point, until mushi, was military so involved and controlling in military R&D.

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## S.Y.A

JamD said:


> *Runway Detection and Localization in Aerial Images Using Deep Learning *
> and
> *Automated Military Vehicle Detection from Low-Altitude Aerial_Images*
> 
> Some fun work done at National Center of Artificial Intelligence (NCAI)


looks like i am very late to the party, i was doing something similar. oh well...

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## JamD

So I know that @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has been going on about how the Navy is doing some really pragmatic and forward-thinking things. Well, I was going through papers and there is DEFINITELY something going on.

So places like NESCOM do publish sometimes. Sometimes directly, sometimes though proxies. However, they publish maybe 2% of their work as we have seen in this thread with hints of systems that we now know exist.

Well, the number of papers on underwater systems (sensor networks and UUVs) has been seeing an almost exponential growth. I will be posting many of them here. You can see for yourself. I am pretty sure we are going to see Pakistan do some pretty amazing things in this sphere.


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## JamD

____________________________________________________________________




@Imran Khan is that you? 




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This is NESCOM people fyi.




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## JamD

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## JamD

________________________________________________________________
Anyone want to guess what this is about? Vertically launching missile shaped objects from underwater platforms lol.








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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army Watches.
Air Force Talks.
Navy Shows.

@JamD in 3 weeks: "Conceptual design nuclear-powered AUUV with VL-LACM capability."

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## JamD

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

There's a lot of sensor-based stuff it seems. I wonder if NRDI et.al are going to closely work with Aselsan, Havelsan, etc on next-gen subsystems. Perhaps there's more to the 3 upgraded Agosta 90Bs than simply deploying more modern systems? Possible test-beds?

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## JamD

__________________________________________________________________




Platform Design House = Pakistan Navy




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One Pakistani guy in there is probably SPD
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_______________________________________
Ok now I will post all of the other fun stuff that I've found.
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## JamD

_______________________________________________________________________
Work by SUPARCO on SAR Satellite




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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> __________________________________________________________________
> View attachment 793637
> 
> Platform Design House = Pakistan Navy
> View attachment 793639
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> _________________________________________________________________________
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> 
> One Pakistani guy in there is probably SPD
> ______________________________________________________________
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> _______________________________________
> Ok now I will post all of the other fun stuff that I've found.
> ______________________________________________________________________________________
> View attachment 793645
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> View attachment 793646
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> View attachment 793647


1. Okay, that glider is dope. It's really cool that they're collaborating with researchers from China. I hope we get an XLUUV based on that concept.

2. The auto-tracking project may explain the PN's preference for AAG CIWS instead of PDMS on its new ships. 

I think EO-based auto-tracking could also spillover into Counter-UAS applications too as it'd make deploying a directed energy weapon system (DEWS) way, way easier. Imagine an auto-tracker that can visually pick-out UAS' from a long-distance and, in turn direct the DEWS automatically.

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## JamD

_____________________________________________________________________________________




Anyone else see a Babur?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> _____________________________________________________________________________________
> View attachment 793655
> 
> Anyone else see a Babur?
> View attachment 793656
> 
> View attachment 793657

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## JamD

___________________________________________________________________________
Hmmmm
















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Xband
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Is that you Azm MALE's landing gear?

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## JamD

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## JamD

JamD said:


> ______________________________________________________________
> View attachment 793670


There are way too many papers for me to post so I am just posting titles. Summary: PAF's biggest (based on research output) project seems to be an X-band fighter AESA radar.

This is mostly gibberish to me because I don't know this stuff. Perhaps @Signalian can comment on these papers if there's anything to comment on how serious this stuff actually looks.





















An X-Band Coupled Lined Based Channel Failure Detection Mechanism For Active Phased Arrays


Active phased arrays are mainly used in radars providing exceptional detection, targeting, tracking, and self-protection capabilities. In these radars, every element has its own Transmit/Receive (T/R) module, which makes the system more reliable. However, a detection mechanism is considered...



ieeexplore.ieee.org







___________________________________________________________








Design of High-Performance X-Band Monopulse Comparator for Active Phased Array Radar Applications


Monopulse Comparator is one of the core components in development of RF front-end of the tracking radars and therefore widely employed in active phased array radars. Thus, active phased array system are progressively becoming the norm for airborne radars imposing stringent requirement on...



ieeexplore.ieee.org









_______________________________________________________________










Design of 15W X-Band GaN Based Transmit / Receive Module for Airborne Active Phased Array Radar Applications


Transmit / Receive module (TRM) is the core component that addresses key requirements of next generation Active Electronically Scanned Array Radars i.e. multifarious functionality, modularity and scalability. Furthermore, ostensible requirements of miniaturization, wideband performance...



ieeexplore.ieee.org


















________________________________________________________










Target Parameter Estimation in Reduced Dimension STAP for Airborne Phased Array Radar


Space-Time Adaptive Processing (STAP) is an integral part of modern airborne phased array radars for slow-moving target detection. Conventional Pulse-Doppler radars estimate target parameters from the range-Doppler map. The estimated bearing of a target is limited by antenna beamwidth. STAP...



ieeexplore.ieee.org










______________________________________________________









Co-site Antenna Interference Analysis on Aerial Platform


Co-site antenna interference normally occurs when multiple transmitting and receiving RF systems are installed close to each other. This interference may be wideband or broadband or in the form of intermodulation, harmonics and noise. It is common to find various individual wireless systems...



ieeexplore.ieee.org





This is probably work for Azm MALE (not AESA radar) even though they've used an MQ-9 CAD model for some reason.










_________________________________________________________________








Miniaturized Grounded Co-planar Waveguide Based X-Band Equal Split Wilkinson Power Divider for AESA Application


Wilkinson Power Divider is extensively used in the development of RF-Front End of AESA Radar. Significant work has been done to design Wilkinson power dividers (WPD) to feed sub-arrays of radars for beam-forming application. Many topologies have already been proposed in the literature to reduce...



ieeexplore.ieee.org















__________________________________________________________________________


https://www.mdpi.com/2079-9292/9/11/1896/pdf








JamD said:


> There are way too many papers for me to post so I am just posting titles. Summary: PAF's biggest (based on research output) project seems to be an X-band fighter AESA radar.
> 
> This is mostly gibberish to me because I don't know this stuff. Perhaps @Signalian can comment on these papers if there's anything to comment on how serious this stuff actually looks.
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> Active phased arrays are mainly used in radars providing exceptional detection, targeting, tracking, and self-protection capabilities. In these radars, every element has its own Transmit/Receive (T/R) module, which makes the system more reliable. However, a detection mechanism is considered...
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> Design of High-Performance X-Band Monopulse Comparator for Active Phased Array Radar Applications
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> Design of 15W X-Band GaN Based Transmit / Receive Module for Airborne Active Phased Array Radar Applications
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> Target Parameter Estimation in Reduced Dimension STAP for Airborne Phased Array Radar
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> Space-Time Adaptive Processing (STAP) is an integral part of modern airborne phased array radars for slow-moving target detection. Conventional Pulse-Doppler radars estimate target parameters from the range-Doppler map. The estimated bearing of a target is limited by antenna beamwidth. STAP...
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> ieeexplore.ieee.org
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> This is probably work for Azm MALE (not AESA radar) even though they've used an MQ-9 CAD model for some reason.
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> Miniaturized Grounded Co-planar Waveguide Based X-Band Equal Split Wilkinson Power Divider for AESA Application
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> 
> Wilkinson Power Divider is extensively used in the development of RF-Front End of AESA Radar. Significant work has been done to design Wilkinson power dividers (WPD) to feed sub-arrays of radars for beam-forming application. Many topologies have already been proposed in the literature to reduce...
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> https://www.mdpi.com/2079-9292/9/11/1896/pdf


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) contrary to what many of us were thinking, this does not look like just a systems integration exercise. There seems to be work on the actual T/R modules too.

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## JamD

Just an observation:
This thread should serve as a display of all the untapped potential that exists in Pakistan's aerospace R&D. Just imagine the things that we can do if this is properly channeled. It makes me extremely happy that such talent exists. Most of these people are doing this work in conditions that don't encourage such type of work. They are doing it against the flow. And then it makes me extremely sad that we don't have the industries to absorb this talent. Rant over.

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## Raider 21

JamD said:


> Just an observation:
> This thread should serve as a display of all the untapped potential that exists in Pakistan's aerospace R&D. Just imagine the things that we can do if this is properly channeled. It makes me extremely happy that such talent exists. Most of these people are doing this work in conditions that don't encourage such type of work. They are doing it against the flow. And then it makes me extremely sad that we don't have the industries to absorb this talent. Rant over.


There is also a link here for non-Pak related engineering papers and researches related to defence. A good amount of reading for those who are interested.

And I largely agree, there is scope, but no solid direction........as we had a saying in one of the Viper squadrons that manpower itself is as good as STANEVAL (Standards & Evaluation).

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## Signalian

JamD said:


> There are way too many papers for me to post so I am just posting titles. Summary: PAF's biggest (based on research output) project seems to be an X-band fighter AESA radar.
> 
> This is mostly gibberish to me because I don't know this stuff. Perhaps @Signalian can comment on these papers if there's anything to comment on how serious this stuff actually looks.
> 
> View attachment 793674
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> An X-Band Coupled Lined Based Channel Failure Detection Mechanism For Active Phased Arrays
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> Active phased arrays are mainly used in radars providing exceptional detection, targeting, tracking, and self-protection capabilities. In these radars, every element has its own Transmit/Receive (T/R) module, which makes the system more reliable. However, a detection mechanism is considered...
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> Design of High-Performance X-Band Monopulse Comparator for Active Phased Array Radar Applications
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> Monopulse Comparator is one of the core components in development of RF front-end of the tracking radars and therefore widely employed in active phased array radars. Thus, active phased array system are progressively becoming the norm for airborne radars imposing stringent requirement on...
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> Design of 15W X-Band GaN Based Transmit / Receive Module for Airborne Active Phased Array Radar Applications
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> Target Parameter Estimation in Reduced Dimension STAP for Airborne Phased Array Radar
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> Space-Time Adaptive Processing (STAP) is an integral part of modern airborne phased array radars for slow-moving target detection. Conventional Pulse-Doppler radars estimate target parameters from the range-Doppler map. The estimated bearing of a target is limited by antenna beamwidth. STAP...
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> ieeexplore.ieee.org
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> This is probably work for Azm MALE (not AESA radar) even though they've used an MQ-9 CAD model for some reason.
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> Miniaturized Grounded Co-planar Waveguide Based X-Band Equal Split Wilkinson Power Divider for AESA Application
> 
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> Wilkinson Power Divider is extensively used in the development of RF-Front End of AESA Radar. Significant work has been done to design Wilkinson power dividers (WPD) to feed sub-arrays of radars for beam-forming application. Many topologies have already been proposed in the literature to reduce...
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> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) contrary to what many of us were thinking, this does not look like just a systems integration exercise. There seems to be work on the actual T/R modules too.


I read the first paper about design of AESA radar.

Frankly, PDF members would want a 1000 km looking radar tracking 100 targets and engaging 50 of those with BUR (Beyond Universe Range) Missiles. Same with S-400, that its capable of detecting anything at 400 km radius or even more, well radar doesn't work like this. Every radar has short comings, no matter how powerful it is. I still laugh at one Indian members comment about S-400," if it flies, it dies", sure mate, S-400 is God made system right.

Anyways, back to paper, radar requirements such as search, track, high target density, environment and system integration giving performance out as peak transmit power, antenna gain, and Noise Figure (NF) including processing (data) throughput, mission software, diagnostics software, and signal processing software. These are fundamentals. Any moving platform (a/c) requires additional air-to air and air-to-surface radar functions or modes. The main features to look in radar are Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR), minimum
detection rage, transmit and receive peak power, and antenna gain. All these are calculated theoretically first and then a hardware(antenna leading to radar) is built around them. As we move on further for designing a modern radar, more requirements come up like Terrain collision avoidance, Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR), and Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS).

Okay then they talk about fighter air to air mode and air to surface mode. They do analysis of trade offs using size, power, weight etc for selection of appropriate operating frequency, waveform, radar coverage, receiver operating characteristics, search design, tracking architectures, and target classifiers in the radar design. Jumping onto Radar Open Structure Architecture (ROSA) is based on modular Commercial-Off-the-Shelf (COTS) components. This ROSA is a basic system referenced from another article. They discuss T/R modules and other restrictions on radars which is again referenced from other papers and then jump from hardware to radar control computer (RCC), radar operating software (ROS), and radar task scheduler (RTS). Then talk about already existing AESA radars.

There is nothing PROPOSED in this paper. They are merely discussing what is already out there. Radar is a technical subject, at least, they should have proposed a new technical design of just one module of radar. No equations for calculations to back up that proposal. They talk about figure 11 (referenced form article 10) for a Multi- Function Phased Array Radar (MFAR) which they have already referenced from article 12. If they propose a design, they have to back it up with logic and technical analysis of calculations and why their proposal is feasible for modern systems or more importantly which short coming they are addressing. This is why literature review is conducted - to understand what is done and currently being done. Then find out what lacks where or which problem can be addressed to improve it further. Can you find anything like that in tis article ?

Have you read the conclusion ? Don't you find it childish. They are telling what needs to be done, fair enough, but what have these research students done themselves? Compiled information from 49 references and published it mixing them altogether. Its like summarizing all those 49 references. Are they sure this is research.

Do you know what is really disappointing ? This is a 2019 article. There just 4 references from 2016, 2 from 2017 and just 1 from 2018. This a disaster. It means there is no exposure of knowledge and information or recent advancements from 2016 onwards till 2019 which should have made the bulk of references. Out of 49, half of references should have been 2015 to 2019 at least.

There are no calculations here leading to a conclusion which is basic core of research. Well i mean, not just calculations, but ensuring that research is taken ahead even by 0.000001% overall to impact globally. If I would use this article as reference then it would just be referenced to tell readers that ROSA exists already and then moving ahead towards my newer proposed design or improved module based on calculations I conducted.

If i presented such a paper to my supervisor, he would throw it back at my face and tell me to get lost. Just 45-50 references would be for literature review of article and ending up around 150 references with at least 50 references used to support the proposed design.

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## S.Y.A

JamD said:


> Platform Design House = Pakistan Navy


nust karachi also = navy

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> There are way too many papers for me to post so I am just posting titles. Summary: PAF's biggest (based on research output) project seems to be an X-band fighter AESA radar.
> 
> This is mostly gibberish to me because I don't know this stuff. Perhaps @Signalian can comment on these papers if there's anything to comment on how serious this stuff actually looks.
> 
> View attachment 793674
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> An X-Band Coupled Lined Based Channel Failure Detection Mechanism For Active Phased Arrays
> 
> 
> Active phased arrays are mainly used in radars providing exceptional detection, targeting, tracking, and self-protection capabilities. In these radars, every element has its own Transmit/Receive (T/R) module, which makes the system more reliable. However, a detection mechanism is considered...
> 
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> ieeexplore.ieee.org
> 
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> ___________________________________________________________
> 
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> Design of High-Performance X-Band Monopulse Comparator for Active Phased Array Radar Applications
> 
> 
> Monopulse Comparator is one of the core components in development of RF front-end of the tracking radars and therefore widely employed in active phased array radars. Thus, active phased array system are progressively becoming the norm for airborne radars imposing stringent requirement on...
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> Design of 15W X-Band GaN Based Transmit / Receive Module for Airborne Active Phased Array Radar Applications
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> 
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> Target Parameter Estimation in Reduced Dimension STAP for Airborne Phased Array Radar
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> Space-Time Adaptive Processing (STAP) is an integral part of modern airborne phased array radars for slow-moving target detection. Conventional Pulse-Doppler radars estimate target parameters from the range-Doppler map. The estimated bearing of a target is limited by antenna beamwidth. STAP...
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> Co-site Antenna Interference Analysis on Aerial Platform
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> Co-site antenna interference normally occurs when multiple transmitting and receiving RF systems are installed close to each other. This interference may be wideband or broadband or in the form of intermodulation, harmonics and noise. It is common to find various individual wireless systems...
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> This is probably work for Azm MALE (not AESA radar) even though they've used an MQ-9 CAD model for some reason.
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> Miniaturized Grounded Co-planar Waveguide Based X-Band Equal Split Wilkinson Power Divider for AESA Application
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> Wilkinson Power Divider is extensively used in the development of RF-Front End of AESA Radar. Significant work has been done to design Wilkinson power dividers (WPD) to feed sub-arrays of radars for beam-forming application. Many topologies have already been proposed in the literature to reduce...
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> https://www.mdpi.com/2079-9292/9/11/1896/pdf
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> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) contrary to what many of us were thinking, this does not look like just a systems integration exercise. There seems to be work on the actual T/R modules too.


GaN based, 15W per module😍

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## JamD

Signalian said:


> I read the first paper about design of AESA radar.
> 
> Frankly, PDF members would want a 1000 km looking radar tracking 100 targets and engaging 50 of those with BUR (Beyond Universe Range) Missiles. Same with S-400, that its capable of detecting anything at 400 km radius or even more, well radar doesn't work like this. Every radar has short comings, no matter how powerful it is. I still laugh at one Indian members comment about S-400," if it flies, it dies", sure mate, S-400 is God made system right.
> 
> Anyways, back to paper, radar requirements such as search, track, high target density, environment and system integration giving performance out as peak transmit power, antenna gain, and Noise Figure (NF) including processing (data) throughput, mission software, diagnostics software, and signal processing software. These are fundamentals. Any moving platform (a/c) requires additional air-to air and air-to-surface radar functions or modes. The main features to look in radar are Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR), minimum
> detection rage, transmit and receive peak power, and antenna gain. All these are calculated theoretically first and then a hardware(antenna leading to radar) is built around them. As we move on further for designing a modern radar, more requirements come up like Terrain collision avoidance, Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR), and Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS).
> 
> Okay then they talk about fighter air to air mode and air to surface mode. They do analysis of trade offs using size, power, weight etc for selection of appropriate operating frequency, waveform, radar coverage, receiver operating characteristics, search design, tracking architectures, and target classifiers in the radar design. Jumping onto Radar Open Structure Architecture (ROSA) is based on modular Commercial-Off-the-Shelf (COTS) components. This ROSA is a basic system referenced from another article. They discuss T/R modules and other restrictions on radars which is again referenced from other papers and then jump from hardware to radar control computer (RCC), radar operating software (ROS), and radar task scheduler (RTS). Then talk about already existing AESA radars.
> 
> There is nothing PROPOSED in this paper. They are merely discussing what is already out there. Radar is a technical subject, at least, they should have proposed a new technical design of just one module of radar. No equations for calculations to back up that proposal. They talk about figure 11 (referenced form article 10) for a Multi- Function Phased Array Radar (MFAR) which they have already referenced from article 12. If they propose a design, they have to back it up with logic and technical analysis of calculations and why their proposal is feasible for modern systems or more importantly which short coming they are addressing. This is why literature review is conducted - to understand what is done and currently being done. Then find out what lacks where or which problem can be addressed to improve it further. Can you find anything like that in tis article ?
> 
> Have you read the conclusion ? Don't you find it childish. They are telling what needs to be done, fair enough, but what have these research students done themselves? Compiled information from 49 references and published it mixing them altogether. Its like summarizing all those 49 references. Are they sure this is research.
> 
> Do you know what is really disappointing ? This is a 2019 article. There just 4 references from 2016, 2 from 2017 and just 1 from 2018. This a disaster. It means there is no exposure of knowledge and information or recent advancements from 2016 onwards till 2019 which should have made the bulk of references. Out of 49, half of references should have been 2015 to 2019 at least.
> 
> There are no calculations here leading to a conclusion which is basic core of research. Well i mean, not just calculations, but ensuring that research is taken ahead even by 0.000001% overall to impact globally. If I would use this article as reference then it would just be referenced to tell readers that ROSA exists already and then moving ahead towards my newer proposed design or improved module based on calculations I conducted.
> 
> If i presented such a paper to my supervisor, he would throw it back at my face and tell me to get lost. Just 45-50 references would be for literature review of article and ending up around 150 references with at least 50 references used to support the proposed design.


First of all thank you for taking the time to read and explain the paper to us.

Agreed on all of your points on writing papers.

I am not surprised that the paper was substandard. Since I am looking at papers published in Pakistani conferences they seem to follow the following distribution:
10% are good papers that are published in Pakistan because the authors couldn't afford to go abroad for conferences
90% are bad papers that people could only get accepted at Pakistani conferences.

With this in mind I make an effort to sift some of the garbage out. However, since I am unable to understand the details in this field I think my brain just gave up and I posted the papers with the fanciest titles.

The question is were there any papers that had some value or demonstrated some actual work being done? Maybe the design of T/R module paper. See the thing is that I cant tell if it's an undergraduate FYP or a serious design meant for a serious thing after some iterations.

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## JamD

Paper of limited or no research value but full of data on the JF-17 - this is as official of data that we can hope for:




















RD-93 Data:












ROC: Rate of Climb









Some inconsistency here - Cmalpha is negative and yet the aircraft is stated as being unstable. I guess the word is being used "loosely". The aircraft is almost unstable at whatever condition this table is for.

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## JamD

Some interesting work. The application is interesting but I feel the methodolgy is not. ML has become the poor man's research tool. Anybody can run codes and get nice looking results eventually. A better work on this topic would have done some kind of intelligent optimization instead of viewing everything on the planet as a ML problem. In the author's defense, using ML for everything is in fashion these days. It doesn't hurt that its impossible to question ML results and thus extremely easy to publish results. This is why you have more ML papers than you can grasp your head around. Rant about ML over lol.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

JamD said:


> Some interesting work. The application is interesting but I feel the methodolgy is not. ML has become the poor man's research tool. Anybody can run codes and get nice looking results eventually. A better work on this topic would have done some kind of intelligent optimization instead of viewing everything on the planet as a ML problem. In the author's defense, using ML for everything is in fashion these days. It doesn't hurt that its impossible to question ML results and thus extremely easy to publish results. This is why you have more ML papers than you can grasp your head around. Rant about ML over lol.
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Do you think that after military started many projects ,more research papers are emerging.Quality of research papers will then surely improve with time if that's the case.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The day people like @JamD can crap on R&D work in Pakistan in an official capacity and force genuine change, that's the day countries will truly fear and respect Pakistan.

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## JamD

Structural analysis of JF-17 wing




Gives some info, also says g limit is 7g based on FEM. I bet this is block 1 or something.




















%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Work on high-speed-target drone:

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## JamD

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Do you think that after military started many projects ,more research papers are emerging.Quality of research papers will then surely improve with time if that's the case.


Definitely. R&D takes decades of consistent backing. However, we need to work on a sustainably growing and robust economy because we cannot expect our shrinking defense budget (in real terms) due to our shrinking economy to fund R&D.



JamD said:


> Work on high-speed-target drone:
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The above is probably just a generic design since PAC's HSTT looks different:

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