# Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot District (1880- 1930)



## M. Sarmad

*Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot District (1880-1930)*
 (Huma Pervaiz & Tahir Mahmood)

*Abstract*
This article analyses the phenomenon of mass-conversion with reference to the Chuhra community of Sialkot district from 1880 to 1930. The focus is on two important aspects of mass-conversion movement in Sialkot District: first, the missionaries changed their pattern of interaction with the local community and focused on the lower segments of the society, second, the socio-economic marginality of Chuhra community pushed them towards mass conversion, and a new religious identity. It highlights the circumstances in which Chuhra mass-conversion movement materialised. Due to their marginalized status Chuhras always remained in search of a new identity.This pursuit for a new identity was based on their aspirations for socio-economic uplift. Consequently, most of the Chuhras came under the sway of Ad-Dharm movement of the 1920s.


*Introduction*
Rural Chuhra community embraced Christianity in large groups in the Sialkot District2. Their large scale conversion to Christianity, also known as massconversion in missionary literature3, started in the 1880s, and multitudes of Chuhras embraced Christianity. They nurtured aspiration to change their lowly socioeconomic status. Moreover, they wanted to join Christian religion due to the presence of upper caste converts and European Christians, and wished to become the part of ruling community by changing their religion. This aspiration for change can be noted in a conversation between a Chuhra and a British police officer; „now tell me‟ the chief (British Chief of Police) said, what good it has been for you [convert] to become a Christian?, Well I cannot tell you‟ said the man. For one thing, I am not afraid of you now, and I can go around among these villages with freedom, and people do not take me for a thief and rascal, as they used to do when we were heathen Chuhras. They take me for a man now.4

The existing literature on Christian community is mainly provincial and regional. The information on the mass-conversion in Sialkot district is patchy and based on survey research. Most of this literature was produced by the missionaries. Hardly any historical study has been undertaken to empirically study the Chuhra mass-conversion movement in the Sialkot district. This article aims to address this gap in the existing literature. This is the first micro-level study which looks at the Chuhra-conversion movement at grassroots level in the light of revealing new sources found in the missionary archives.

For socially suppressed segments of the society, the message of the gospel was a God sent boon. They considered the missions as God‟s agent of change. The lower castes started to convert with the spread of missionary activities not only in the Punjab but also throughout India during the twentieth century. The other lowercaste converts were Bhangi from U.P., Methars from Western India, Chamar from North India, and Madigas from central India.5 The Chuhras not only of Sialkot embraced Christianity, but their brethren elsewhere in Amritsar, Gurdaspur, Rawalpindi, Sheikhupura, and Gujranwala converted to the Christian religion. However, the conversion in other areas of Punjab wasn't on a large scale as compared to Sialkot.

Various Christian missions such as United Presbyterian (UP) mission, Church of Scotland, Church Missionary Society (CMS) and Roman Catholic mission played their role to convert the lower segments of society towards Christianity in Sialkot district.6 The process of mass-conversion was very rapid in this district.7 After only one decade (1881-1891) Christian population increased over 3,000.8 Among the overall converts, ninety-five percent came from Chuhra caste.9 Due to this reason, the primary focus of this study is to analyze two different aspects of Chuhra massmovement in district Sialkot. First it will shed light on the phenomenon of massconversion in the light fo missionary activities and second, it will analyse the process of conversion in the light of social, religious and economic factors.

*Meaning Of Mass-Movement*
The term „mass-movement‟ is frequently employed by scholars to define group conversion of Chuhras towards Christianity in Sialkot district. However, some authors termed it differently. For example, Thakur Das used „history of Christian movement‟ (1880-1930) 10, Margret Stock, Fredrick, John C.B. Webster, and John Rooney used the term „Chuhra Movement‟11 and James Messy used the words „Holy Spirit Movement‟ for Christian mass-movement among the lower castes of Punjab.12 Regardless of the differences in terminology, all the scholars unanimously agree that mass conversion in Punjab, especially in Sialkot, took place from 1880s to 1930s.13

Church Missionary Society (CMS) defined the meaning of mass-movement in its study of 'Mass-Movement Survey of India‟ among lower castes which was conducted in 1927. According to the survey, “mass-movement is the conversion of people in groups as families or groups of families as a community or group of communities. They may number thousands, or only hundreds, or possibly even less. However, if the movement is one of the people in groups, as distinguished from the conversion of isolated individuals, it is a mass-movement.”14

The Chuhra mass-movement to Christianity was not a new phenomenon. Before this, there had been different mass-movements among different lower castes in various parts of India. The oldest among them was the conversion of Paravars (fisherman by caste) in 1573 in the Southern tip of Peninsula under the influence of Roman Catholics. 15 After the first mass conversion movement, many other mass conversion movements were witnessed in India. For example, a few of the prominent mass conversions are noted below;

Nadras of Tamil Nadu under Protestant Church during 1840.
Krishngar (Bengal) in 1832 and Sikhs in Moradabad village (Utter Pradesh 1859) under Methodist mission.
Mass conversion movement from 1889 to 1905 in Gujrat.
Bhangis and Chamars in Western parts of India during the 1880s and 1890s. 16
Paraiyar and Madharis of Trichinopoly-Tanjore (Andhara Pradesh) from 1931 to 1947.17

During the colonial era, especially in Punjab, different Christian missions (United Presbyterian Mission, Church of Scotland and Church Missionary Society) promoted mass conversion. Nonetheless, in Sialkot, United Presbyterian and Church of Scotland baptized mass-movement converts. 18 Moreover, under their influence, the movement also spread to other areas e.g. Gujranwala, Gujrat, and Waziarabad. Initially, missionaries were only interested in the conversion of wealthy individuals of Punjabi society. The purpose behind this inclination towards them was to promote the right image of the Christian community. In the words of Stephen Neill„It is part of mythology of missions that missionaries turned naturally to the poor and degraded, among whom they would find less resistance to their message, and neglected the higher castes.‟ But history shows that the exact opposite was the case. Almost every mission started with the attempt to reach higher castes.The poor were viewed with anxiety and a measure of embarrassment by the missionaries who believed that their all efforts of conversion might be prejudiced by the influx of mass of ignorant and despised people.19 Regardless of this policy of missionaries, when individuals from the lower caste started converting to the Christianity, missionaries did not have any other option but to accept them in Christianity.

*Formation Of Chuhra Identity In Sialkot District
*
*Social conditions of Chuhras*
In Sialkot district, Chuhras houses were separated from other communities.20 Moreover, most of their population was residing in rural areas where they worked for Muslims and Hindus. They had their houses but were isolated from the other dwelt areas. They were allowed to construct and own houses by the landlords, and were provided with the material for the building. They can also collect fire wood with the permission of landlords. Their social contact with other communities was based on working ties. They were considered polluted and were not allowed to use wells of upper-castes and have their separate kachha (not constructed with backed bricks) wells. There was no notion of respect for them, and they were not even authorized to have decent names.21 Deep poverty and gross-ignorance ruled all the aspect of their social and cultural life. One of the missionaries described their social status in these words, "In the social scale they are as low and degraded as they can be, they are not only slave of the village in which they live but temporary slaves of the natives and European officers who may encamp in the village…People too depraved, too vicious, too immoral, and too ignorant‟. 22

The other village communities like Nai (barber), Mochi (cobblers), and Dhobi (washer man) used to serve Muslims and Hindus and remained away from Chuhras because of the fear of a boycott by the upper castes on the charge of having relation with untouchables. The only caste who served the Chuhras was barbers and they were considered Chuhras as well. In social life Chuhras had joint or extended family structure with patriarchal patterns. They used to live in Baradari (brother-hood) system23 on which their social status was based. Their Baradri system was further sub-divided in different gotras (clans) i.e. Gill, Bhatti, Mattu, Ladhar, Sahotra, Sindhu, Untawal, Boral, and Bahairwal.24 They used to settle their problems through the panchayat (council) that consisted of elders of their gotras. The situation of Chuhra woman was even worse than their counterpart men. Women were ignorant and believed in charms.25 However, their role in economic life was imperative. The Chuhra women helped men to support their families. Along with their husbands, they used to work at the house of landlords. For their services they received 1/3rd portion of the major crops.26

The seclusion of Chuhras from the society and the subsequent concept of pollution had many reasons. Most scholars believe that it was their eating habits that influenced other communities to consider them polluted. They lived the life of scavengers and used to eat dead animals. However, their eating habit was different in different areas.27 In Sialkot, Chuhras under the influence of Muhammadans avoided pork. However, they eat haram (unlawful in Isalm) flesh as well as halal without any distinction.28Along with eating habits, another reason because of which they were considered pollutants was betrothal ceremony. During the ceremony, father of bride used to ask for money in exchange of his daughter. Such selling of daughter was seen as a lowly dead by the general public.29 Moreover, inorder to incur expenses on marriage and related ceremonies, Chuhras used to borrow plenty of money from the landlords. Since most of the time they were unable to pay back the borrowed money, they remained under the subjugation of their landlords for gnerations. According to a Chuhra, “Though we are poor thus we marry our sons and daughters in a manner that would bring credit to us……after all izzat of biradari has some meaning… even if we cannot afford we must spend.‟30

*Economic Conditions of Chuhras*
The Chuhras‟ most common work was sweeping and removing the night soil. They also used to remove the carcass. The sweeping became a more permanent profession of those Chuhras who migrated to cities. However, the rural Chuhras were actively engaged in agricultural labour which provided them social and economic survival in the agricultural economy. The Chuhras population mostly resided in villages, and rural society was predominately agricultural. Under the agricultural settings, Chuhras were known as Athri or Sepi. Arthi Chuhras were those who were employed only for agriculture labour. In returns, they would get daily food. On the other hand, sepi Chuhra was scavenger of the landlord‟s house. He can serve more than one landord family. He could also be employed for agricultural work.31 The system is known as Jagmani system in which lower castes were tied in a hereditary relation with the landlord and provided services to them in return for livelihood.32 The relation of Chuhras and landlords was hereditary. This hereditary relation of Chuhras with the master was not very simple in nature. Landlords, verly often, engaged them in forced labour. To protect them from this coercion, missionaries even supported the Chuhras against the oppression of landlords 33

*Religious Conditions of Chuhras*
The common perception regarding Chuhras was that they were followers of the religion of dominant classes in their respective villages. In Muslim dominated areas they became Muslims and in the Hindu dominated areas they remained Hindus. In Hindu villages, they used to cremate their dead, but those living in the Muhammedan villages they followed burrial practice.34 However, regardless of this apparent following the practices of dominant religions, they always retained their distinct religious life. The Chuhras had their peculiar legends about their religious origin. Muslim Churahs used to call themselves as Bala Shahi or the followers of Lal Beg tradition and the Hindu Chuhras called themselves Balmiki. Although they claimed to be either Muslims and Hindus but they retained their peculiar regious practices. They had their separate shrines. Muslim Chuhras used to worship in the shrines of Bale-Shah, which usually stood in the center of Chuhra quarters.35 In Sialkot, where Muslim culture and religion was dominant, Chuhras claimed to be Bale-Shahis.36

In one of the tardition of the Chuhras the creation of the Lal Beg and their distinction from the Balmikis is described in the following manner, “when the Satan tempted Adam and Eve he was thrust down from heaven. Blood gushed from his nose and each drop became a pig. Allah-Talah brushed the sweat from his forehead and each drop became a dog. Then the Lord created sons of Balmik to be scavengers on earth and created Lal Beg to clean the steps of the throne of heaven”.37 H. A. Rose described different traditions which distinct Balmiki from Lal begs. About the origin of the Lal Beg he wrote that once Lord Shiva (Hindu God) rubbed his hand on the red stone and Lal Beg came out. Lal Beg was regarded as the Prophet of the sweepers.38

Chuhras, through these peculiar notions of origin and legend tried to create their own social space in the society. With the arrival of Islam, the Chuhra converted to Islam, linked their old traditions and legends with Islam in the form of Bala-e-Shah. Then under Sikhism, they started to propagate their relationship with the Sikhs Gurus especially with Guru Tegh Bahudar (1621-1675), who was the Ninth Sikh Guru and in this vein began to call themselves Rangetra (son of Guru).39 This certainly suggests that they struggled to find space not only in socio-economic terms but also in religious terms. In this way, their traditions and legends became a permanent source of their identity which defined their religiouis practices. Being despiesed by the upper caste followers of other major religions, they started to develop their own way of worship.

*Conversion In Sialkot: Some Discernible Trends*
The Christian missions of Sialkot, United Presbyterians and Church of Scotland, were not in favour of converting individuals from lower castes. These missions only focused on the upper castes of Sialkot and could only mange to get a few converts. However, they largely remained unsuccessful to convert affluent people in significant numbers. Andrew Gordon, a missionary from United Presbyterian mission who spent many years to convert people from a high caste, remarked that they listened to him with considerable attention but did not denounce their faith publicly. Even a very few of them who were baptized later on reconverted to their former religion.40 This detachment of upper class forced missionaries to look towards depressed segments of the society. On another occasion, Andrew Gordon
remarked that „I may say that I began my eyes upon the large towns and cities. However, have been led from them to the country villages. I began with educated classes and people of good social position and ended among the poor and lowly.‟41

Gordon‟s opinion regarding Chuhra conversion changed the mission‟s strategy and mission started working on the lower castes of Sialkot district. According to him, „If the honourable, the wise, and the great should be deterred from coming to Christ, the sin would lie in their pride, and not in our receiving the lowly.‟42 His opinion reverberated in the Mission which now cleary understood that only individual converts could not provide the podium for the formation of an allinclusive Christian community.

Like United Presbyterian mission most of the eminent missionaries of Scottish mission were also not favourably disposed towards lower caste converstion. William Harper (1874-1885)43 was the first Scottish missionary who showed dissatisfaction in lower caste converstion. Nevertheless, his successor Rev. John Taylor and Rev. Robert Paterson showed interest in the lower caste and established Barah Pather (an area close to the western side of Sialkot cantonment) as a headquarters of the mission and started converting individuals both from upper and lower tier of society.44

During Reverend Youngson‟s time, things changed dramatically. With the mass conversion of Chuhra community, especially in Sialkot, Gujrat, and Wazirabad,45 missions had to change their policies. After these mass conversions, missionaries started focusing on the convert from the lower segments of the society and tried to make them real Christians as well as economically independent citizens. Reverend Youngson opened a school for sweepers in 1885 at Daska with the aim to educate them for better economic life.

*Origin Of Mass Movement

The conversion of MEGS Tribe in Sialkot District*
The origin of the mass movement in Sialkot district can be traced to an event of conversion when a person from Meg46 community was baptized in 1866.47 He belonged to the village of Jhandran, a mile from Zafarwal in Sialkot district. Megs were Hindus by religion and were a depressed caste of Sialkot. In appearance, Megs used to have bodi, a tuft of hair on the head, cremate their dead and treated cow as a sacred animal.48 Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot District (1880-1930) 47

The people of the village came under the influence of Jahawar Mashi (who was a newly employed catechist) and started to lose interest in idol worship. Mr. G. W. Scott also accompanied Jawahar Mashi, a missionary of United Presbyterian Mission, and began to preach Megs in Jahandarn village. After their preaching of Christianity, Megs converted in groups. This happened during a marriage ceremony, a Meg chief (Pipo) showed his inclination towards Christianity, and all of his tribesmen followed suit. Moreover, Pipo‟s influence also forced his younger brother Bhajan and his friend Kanaya to convert to Christianity. 49 Similarly, after the wedding incident, other followed their examples, and 25 more families were converted in 1859. By the end of 1884, the total converts coming from Meg community was 59.

After 1884, Megs‟ mass conversion movement lost its momentum. The reason behind the slow growth of the Megs‟ conversion was the Arya Samaj‟s (Hindu reformist movement, 1875) movement of purification. This movement provided the Megs a second chance to embrace their old religion that too without falling back to their old caste system. Before the conversion, Megs were facing discrimination.They were not allowed to draw water from the wells of Hindus and were even not allowed to share the carpets with Hindus. The massive conversion of Megs to Christianity alerted Hindu reformist organization i.e. Arya Samaj. They not only declared the Megs cleaned but also started to establish some schools and Arya Nagr colony to uplift the socioeconomic position of the Megs in Sialkot.50 The Arya Samaj was so effective that in 1908, 22,115 out of 40,000 Megs joined Arya Samaj.51

*The Chuhra Mass Movement
*
The Chuhra mass movement started with the conversion of a thirty-year-old Chuhra, named Ditt, in 1873. He lived in Shahbdike, a village three miles South of Mirali in Sialkot district.52
At that time no Christian mission was working in his village. He met a Hindu Jat (Nathu Lal) of neighboring village who had converted to Christianity in 1872. During his interaction with Nathu Lal, he came to know about Christianity. After the meeting with Nathu, Ditt decided to embrace Christianity. In June 1873, Nathu accompanied him to Sialkot, where Rev. Samuel Martin baptized him under the United Presbyterian mission.

Ditt‟s request for conversion was sudden while missionaries used to check faith of converts by keeping them in mission compound for a few days before baptism. However, Rev.Samuel Martin found him sincere towards Christianity and baptized him. After baptism, Ditts got permission to go back to his village to preach his villagers and companions about the message of Christianity. Rev. Martin, although, reluctant to allow a Chuhra to preach Christianity, allowed him to do so. When he went back to his village, he had to face sharp reaction from his family. He was no more allowed to eat or drink with them. On his conversion, his sister in law expressed his feelings; “Alas my brother, you have changed your religion without asking our counsel: our relationship with you is over.”53 However, regardless of this bitter reaction he went from village to village and preached the message of Christianity to the Chuhra communities in Sialkot District.

After three months, he came back to Sialkot with his wife, daughter and two neighbors to Rev. Martin for baptism. Six months later Ditt came again with four other men one of them was his relative named Kaka, who joined him voluntarily for evangelical work.54 Consequently, after eleven years of Ditt‟s conversation, more than five hundred Chuhras approached church and half of them converted to Christianity.55 Similarly, Webster mentioned in his book that in 1886 there were 2,000 baptisms out of which 1,041 were reported in Zafarwal‟s area where the village of Ditt was located. 56 After the start of the mass movement, by 1900 half of people accepted Christianity and by 1915 all Chuhras in Sialkot district became Christian.57

Ditt‟s contribution changed the mindset of missionaries towards the use of native catechists. After his useful contributions, Missionaries used native converts to address other Chuhras to give them a message of Christ in an eloquent way. Christopher Harding used the expression of „Native Agency‟ for this.58 After changing the policy, rural catechist, teachers, and medical staff played a major role in evangelicalism and worked as mediators between missionaries and rural community. Subsequently, United Presbyterian missionaries and Scottish missionaries also adopted the same technique. Rev.Youngsons, especially in Gujrat, visited 100 villages in which he was assisted by one of his convert Didar Singh. Similarly, Rev.Willliam Harper used the services of his native converts (Kishan Chand and Nath Mall) to work in the villages of Daska and Sammbrial in 1874.59

Before the conversion of Chuhra class, as we have seen most of the missionaries were not set for converting lower classes. However, things changed after the mass conversion. Missionaries felt the need to educate converted persons to make them true Christians. Consequently, to impart religious education United Presbyterian mission started a Theological Seminary in 1877 at Sialkot. The seminary was an orphan education institution under the patronage of Sialkot United Presbyterian with Dr. J. S. Barr as principal. He was assisted by Andrew Gordon and G. L. Thakur Das. Under this initiative, one thousand two hundred and fifty-one children from lower class were admitted to the Church.

During the Chuhra mass-movement, converted community had to face two kinds of persecution. First, they had to face the persecution of the local landlords, who considered conversion to Christianity as heresy since most of the converts were not available for the minial work. This narrative was deliberately constructed to bring back the converts to their previous social and economic activities. Due to this persecution, some of Chuhra converts migrated to other parts of Punjab such as Julunder, Amritsar and Delhi. In these cities, especially in Delhi, Chuhras converts Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot Distric (1880-1930) 49 engaged themselves in sanitation department to fulfil their economic needs. They were regarded sweepers by the British, Hindus and Muslims. In 1921 almost eighty two percent of sweepers were from Chuhra community.60 However, the second kind of persecution was more severe. After conversion to Christianity family members and locals excommunicated them. This excommunication was backed by the activities of Arya Samaj in Sialkot district, especially in the areas of Megs. Arya Samaj unleashed a severe campaign against the conversion of first Megs and than Chuhras and increased the frequency of the ceremony of purification. However, to win back the converts, the Aryas worked for the socio-economic wellbeing of the Megs and Chuhras. For example, Lala Ganga Ram Vakil started a high school and ten vernacular education and carpentry schools in which children of Megs were admitted. Through this welfare work the Samajists succeeded in claiming back hundereds of Christian converts. As a result the depressed and marginalised communities became more resilient towards missionary activities.

*Culmination Of Mass Movement*
The Chuhra mass conversion to Christianity started to slow down during the 1920s. The primary reason for the decline in the mass conversion was the emergence of another socio-religious movement among lower castes in Punjab. This movement was called as Ad-Dharm movement and was founded by Mango Ram. The AdDharm movement brought about a significant awareness among the lower castes and raised their consciousness about forming a new identity. The movement was against labeling lower castes as Hindu, Muslim or Sikh and promoted the idea of a separatere identity for the lower castes of all religions.61 The founder of Ad-Dharn movement believed that the fundamental reason behind the division in the society was the faith and to change the social order and to free the lower castes from the shackles of religious oppressions, a new religious alignment for lower caste is essential.62 This movement was not only for the converted Christians; many other castes such as sweepers, Chamar and Chuhra who were looking for some religious identity for their survival became Ad-Dharm.

Before the census of 1931, instructions were issued that all Chuhras who were not Muslims or Christians and did not have any desire to associate with any other religion should mention themselves as Hindus in the census. However, Ad-Dharm leader responded to this new policy and demanded that „they are not Hindu and should not be included in the Hindu category. They wanted the British government to accept them as a distinct identity. Consequently, their organization The 'Punjab Ad-Dharm Mandal‟ petitioned to the government that depressed castes should be returned as Ad-Dharm and eventually their request was accepted. In response to this policy change, a significant number of Chuhras and Chamars claimed to be Ad-Dharm in the census of 193163 i.e. the 418,789 untouchables in Punjab recorded AdDharm as their religion.64

Along with the Ad-Dharm movement, political activism of untouchables also impaired the growth of Christian community. Ad-Dharm was not only a movement championing for social-mobility its leaders in Punjab also tried to create a separate political consciousness. This political movement provided the untouchables and converted Christians a political platform to change their social and economic status. In the chnaged circumstances, the lower segments of the Punjabi society opted for political activism65 and begin to resent conversion. Moreover, from the 1920s onward the process of conversion to Christianity had come to an halt, and those who had a desire for change joined the Ad-Dharm movement.

Besides the reformist movements, many prominent political figures also supported the lower castes of India. A leader like Karam Chand Gandhi (1869-1949), used the term Harijan (1933), which mean children of God for the depressed castes.66 Moreover, Mr. Gandhi went to live in sweeper colony in Delhi in March 1946 and he prayed for the day when he will live in the house of a Harijan’.67 Similarly, Dr. Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar (1891-1956) a Dalit leader, demanded the right of separate electorates for untouchables in 1932. However, on the issues of untouchables, Dr. Ambedkar and Mr. Gandhi showed diverse opinions. Dr. Ambedkar was for providing legal status to the untouchables in the form of separate identities like Muslims and Hindus. Moreover, he believed that this goal could only be achieved by imparting education to the untouchables.68

On the other hand, Mr. Gandhi being a Veishia of Bania caste expressed his feelings for untouchables in these words “I want to attain mokska. I do not want to be reborn. But if I have to be reborn, I should be born an untouchable so that I may share their sorrows, sufferings and the affronts leveled at them, so that I may endeavor to free myself and them from that miserable condition.” 69 He always maintained his support for the Dalit community, but he was strictly against providing them separate electorate. Consequently, during the communal awards of 1932,untouchables were being considered to be recognized as a distinct identity but because of the protest of Gandhi the untouchables had to withdraw from their demands.70

*Conclusion
*
Due to their marginalised status the Chuhra community of Sialkot district looked for a new identity in order to improve its social status. After the arrival of Christian missionaries in Sialkot, Chuhras with a little persuasion embraced the new faith. Initially, Christian missionaries were not inclined for the conversion of lower castes. However, with the multitudes of Chuhras converting to Christianity, missionaries were left with no other option but to accept them. The missionaries trained the native converts and used them as mediators between them and other Chuhras for further evangelization. The mass-conversion among Chuhras resulted in massive growth of native Christians in Sialkot district. However, they still remained marginalized and were unable to intermingle with the highcast educated native and European Christians. They achieved economic opportunities to some extent but their identity became more stigmatized. Due to the rapid growth of Christianity among the depressed classes, the image of Christian community in Punjab became stigmatized i.e. all the Christian came to be known as Chuhra, and all the Chuhras came to be known as Christians. Under these circumstances, when they remained unable to change their stigmatized social status, they started looking for another identity. Consequently, of the Arya Samaj and the Ad-Dharm movement ebbed the tide of mass conversion to Christianity. A number of converted Christian were calimed back and still many more joined the Ad Dharam.

*Notes and References*

1
Chuhras is the sweeper and scavenger caste of Punjab. In Lahore and Sialkot they also functioned as agricultural labourers, village messengers and in some areas of the province they collected the cow dung. Denzil Ibbetson, Punjab Castes (Lahore, Government Printing Press, 1986), p. 209. Different censuses enumerated their population in the Sialkot District as follows.
Year Population
1881 78980
1891 18419
1901 63811
1911 23895
1921 1231
1931 1688
See for detail, Punjab District Gazetteer, volume XV part B, Sialkot District Statistical Tables (Lahore: Printing press Punjab, 1936), Table. 15, p. iii.
2
Sialkot came into the fold of Imperial rule after the second battle of Anglo-Sikh war in 1849. During the colonial era, Sialkot district had four tehsils i.e. Sialkot, Zafarwal, Pasrur, and Daska. Captain J.R Dunlip Smith, Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894- 95, revised edition (Lahore: Civil and Military Gazette Press, 1895), p. 35. 
3
There are three important enquiries on rural Christian community especially on Chuhra Christians. These studies were related to the socio-economic conditions andresults of mass conversion among lower-caste converts in Sialkot District. First survey was conducted by Church Missionary Society named „Mass-Movement Survey of India‟ which was conducted in 1927 in seven region of India including Punjab. See for detail, „Report on The Mass Movement in Western India, A Survey and Statement of Need‟ (London: Church Missionary Society, 1926). Second study was conducted by Dr. J. Waskom Pickett „Director Mass Movement Study National Christian Council of India‟ (1929-1933). He conducted his research in ten different areas of India. In Punjab he focused on Christian Community of Pasrus, District Sialkot. See for detail J. Waskom Pickett, Christians Mass Movement in India: A study with Recommendation (New York: Abingdon Press, 1933). Third a survey was done among Chuhra Christian community by E.D Lucas and F. Thakur Das between1936- 1938 in eighteen villages in Sialkot and Narowal. See for detail E.D Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A study of social, economic, educational and religious conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district (Lahore: Forman Christian College, 1938). 
4 
Reverend G.E Philips, The Outcaste’ Hope or Work among the Depressed Classes in India (London: 1912), p. 83. Also see, Rowena Robinson and Sathianathan Clarke, Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot Distric (1880-1930) 53 Religious Conversion in India: Modes, Motivation, and Meanings (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2003), p. 363.
5
Chuhra was not the only community that accepted Christianity through mass conversion. Along with them many lower segments of the Punjabi society also witnessed mass-conversion i.e. Chamars an another scavenger caste, converted to Christianity in large number in Delhi, Amritsar and Gurdaspur. See Saurabh Mishra, “Of Poisoners: Tanners and British Raj: Redefining Chamar Identity in Colonial North India 1850-90”, The Indian Economic and Social History Review, July-September 2011, Vol XLVIII, No.3. pp. 318-19. See also John C.B. Webster, The Dalit Christians: A History (New Delhi: ISPCK, 2009), p. 35.
6
Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894-95), p. 65.see also Fr. Leo, The Capuchin Mission in the Punjab: With Notes on the History, Geography, Ethnology and Religion of the Country (Punjab: Catholic Mission Press, 1910), p. 131.
7
Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894-95), p. 65
8 
Kenneth W. Jones, Arya- Dharam; Hindu consciousness in 19th century Punjab (London: University of California, 1997), p. 12.
9
Punjab District Gazetteer, Sialkot District 1920, Volume XXIII (Lahore: Punjab Printing Press, 1921), p. 58.
10 
E.D Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A study of social, economic, educational and religious conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district (Lahore: Forman Christian College, 1938), p. 10.
11 
Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab: With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carry Library, 1975), p. 66. Also see John Rooney, Into Desert (Rawalpindi: Christian Study Centre, 1986), p. 21., John C. B. Webster, The Dalit Christians: A History, p.71.
12
James Massey, The Movement of Spirit (Switzerland: SCC Publication, 1996), p. 9.
13
Christopher Harding, Religious Transformation in South Asia: The meaning of Conversion in Colonial Punjab (London Oxford University Press,2008), p. 5. William B Anderson and Charles R. Watson, Far North in India: A Survey of the Mission Field and Work of the United Presbyterian Church in the Punjab (Philadelphia, United Presbyterian Church of North America, 1909), p. 227. E. D. Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A Study of Social, Economic, Educational and Religious Conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district. p.11. Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in the Punjab: With special reference to the United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carey Library, 1929), p. 68. The Call from the Land of Five Rivers: A survey of Work of Church Missionary Society in Central Punjab, on The Mass Movement in Western India, A survey and statement of Need, Church Missionary Society, 1926, p. 7. Kenneth W. 54 Pakistan Vision Vol. 19 No. 1 Jones, Arya- Dharam; Hindu consciousness in 19th century Punjab (London: University of California, 1997) p. 12.
14 
The first survey was published in 1917 then second in 1921, and the third survey was conducted in 1927. According to the first study of CMS, the term „Mass Movement‟ seems to be applicable only when there is a definite forward movementtowards Christianity.' The Mass Movement Survey was conducted in seven regions i.e. Auragnabad, United Provinces, Central Punjab Punjab (Jogra), Travancore,Western India, Telugu country and in Santalia. Report on The Mass Movement in Western India, A survey and statement of Need, Church Missionary Society, 1926, p. 1. W. C. Pickett also defined the group conversion movement towards Christianity as a reception of the outcastes or untouchables into Church. It can be defined as the transformation of the small groups or conversion of the whole populace. In simple word, the mass movement conversion is either a small or large group movement towards Christianity. See. J. Waskom Pickett, Christian Mass Movement in India (New York: Ablungdon Press, 1933), p. 22. W. C. Pickett also defined the group conversion movement towards Christianity as a reception of the outcastes or untouchables into Church. It can be defined as the transformation of the
small groups or conversion of the whole populace. In simple word, the mass movement conversion is either a small or large group movement towards Christianity.
15
Parvaras were the depressed castes and being exploited by the Arab pirates and Hindu upper castes. They requested from the Portuguese for protection and conversion. Then in 1537, the whole caste was converted to Christianity. Duncan.Forrester, “The Depressed Classes and Conversion to Christianity”1860-1960 cited in Religion in South Asia: Religious Conversion and Revival Movements in South Asia in Medieval and Modern times by G. A. Oddie (London: Cruzan, 1977).
16. 
Eleanor, Zelliot, „The Psychological Dimensions of the Buddhist Movement in India‟, p.123
17
John C.B. Webster, A History of Dalit Christians in India (San Francisco: Mellen Research University Press, 1992), pp. 38-39.
18
The United Presbyterian (UP) was a first mission that started its activities in Sialkot district in 1855 under the guidance of Reverend Andrew Gordan, and missions focused only in the areas of Pasrur, Zafarwal, and Raya. After United Presbyterian mission, Sialkot district came under the control of Church of Scotland and chose Adah in Sialkot district as their headquarter in 1856. Moreover, Church of Scotland selected Gujrat, Wazirabad, and Daska as their main mission stations. Along with Church of Scotland and United Presbyterian missions, Roman Catholics also started their mission activities in Sialkot under the guidance of Reverend Dr. Mourad, Bishop of Lahore, in 1893. Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894-95, p. p. 65. Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot Distric (1880-1930) 55
19 
R. K. Wilson, The Twice Alienated: Culture of Dalit Christians (Hyderabad: Bobolinks Publishers, 1982), p. 15. 
20
Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894-95), p. 48.
21
Restrictions were more rigid in other parts of India, especially in Kangra District(South India), where the majority of the population was Hindus. In some other areas in India, especially in U.P, some lower castes like Chamars and Dhobi (washer man) were treated better and were allowed to use the water of wells of upper castes. However, Chuhras were not allowed. See for detail Dr. Soran Singh, Scheduled Castes of India, dimensions of Social change (New Delhi: Gian Publishers, 1987), p. 10.
22
Allaud, Dean Asini, „Christian Minority in West Punjab‟, PhD Dissertation, School of Education, New York University, 1964, p. 83.
23 
Clement Ashley Waidyasekara, Brotherhood in Punjabi Culture and Gospel Message (Colombo: Rufiana Graphics, 2007), p. 54.
24
Linda S Walbridge, The Christians of Pakistan: The Passion of Bishop John Joseph (New York: Routledge, 2003), p. 15.
25 
William Crooke, Religion and Folklore of Northern India (Oxford University Press,1926), P. 326.
26 E. D. Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A study of social, economic, educational and religious conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district (Lahore: Forman Christian College, 1938), p. 15.
27 
In Gujrat Chuhra used to eat dead animals especially those which had died a natural death. These included lizard and wild cat but did not eat jackal, fox and tortoise. In Montgomery all Chuhras ate flesh of dead animals. H. A. Rose, A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province, volume II (Lahore: Aziz Publishers, 1978), p. 190.
28 
Ibid. 190.
29
D. J. Boyd, Customary Laws in Sialkot District (Lahore: Government Printing Press,1917), p. 5.
30
E. D. Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A study of social, economic, educational and religious conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district (Lahore: Forman Christian College, 1938), p. 36. 31 John C.B. Webster, A History of Dalit Christians inIndia (San Franco: Mellen Research University Press, 1992), P.14. See also Punjab District Gazetteers of Sialkot 1912, Religion Part A, statistical table (Lahore: Mufid-i-Am Press, 1913), p.110.
32
Louis E. Fenech, “Conversion and Sikh tradition” cited in Religious conversion in India, Modes, Motivations, and Meaning by Rowena Robinson and Sathianathan Clarke (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2003), p.296. 56 Pakistan Vision Vol. 19 No. 1
33
Jeffrey Cox, Imperial Fault Lines: Christianity and Colonial Power inIndia (1818-1940) (California: Stanford University Press, 2002), p.126.
34
Census of India 1911, volume XIV, Punjab, Part I, Report by Pandit Harikishan Kaul (Lahore: Civil and Military Gazette, 1921), p. 111.
36 
Jon. C.B. Webster, The Dalit Christians: A History (New Delhi: ISPCK, 2009), p.64.
37 
John O‟Brien, The Unconquered People: The Liberation Journey of Oppressed Caste (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012), p. 47.
38
H. A. Rose, A Glossary of Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province. p. 20
39 
The Chuhras founded more acceptance in Sikhism because it was believed that executed body of Guru Tegh Bahadur was carried out from Delhi and handed over to his son Guru Gobind Singh by Chuhras. Than the Chuhras were accepted in Sikhism as a reward of their service. See for detail B.W Srivastava, Manual Scavenging in India: A Disgrace to the Country (New Delhi: Concept Publishers, 1997),p. 27.
40 
Frederick and Margaret, Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab:With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William CarryLibrary, 1975), pp. 21-23.
41J
ames Massy, The Movement of Spirit (Switzerland: SCC Publication, 1996), p. 7.
42
Frederick and Margaret, Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab: With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carr Library, 1975), p.20.
43
He was born 1845, at Monquhitter in Buchan. He sailed for India with his wife Isabella. After William Hunter, he was given charge of Sialkot Mission. They had three children one of his daughter was buried in Sialkot. His area of influence was Sialkot, Sammbral, and Daska.
44
There were some important converts from Islam and Hinduism such as Karm Chand (1876), Imam-ud-din (1877), Gopal Chand (1878), Muhammad Hanif(1878),YisuRakh(1879), IllahiBaksh(1880), HidayatUllah(1882). Karam Chand baptized but remained under pressure from his family that forced him to come back to their religion. One day he was preaching in Sialkot and did not return to the mission again.Later on, it was discovered that he had become a Sikh. Similarly, Yasu Rakha father was Qanungo of Sialkot Tehsil, and one of his uncles was Diwan of Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir. After getting his education in a cityschool, he went to Kashmir. He became annoyed with the idol worship and under the influence of Maulivi he became Muslim. However, hewas not satisfied. He appeared in Hunter Memorial Church and declared his faith in Christ and changed Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot Distric (1880-1930) 57 his name from Ram Rakha to Yisu Rakha. In the same way, Hidayat Ullah, adopted son of wealthy man in Jammu, was a student of mission high school Sialkot. Heexpressed his desire to become a Christine. However, he left for Peshawar and then for Jullundur because he had to face persecution. Later on, he was baptized in Jullundur. William G. Young, Days of Small Things (Rawalpindi: Christian Study Center, 1991), pp. 23-24.
45
Native converts from Gujrat and Wazirabad under Rev. Youngson included Karam Bibi, Sadiq Masih, and Akbar Ali. Some other converts were Burhi (1881 Dec 18) a son of teachers, Samanda son of Murad Bakshzamindar, Jaimal son of domesticservant, CharanMashi son of the coolie ,Channu, son of a domestic servant and Rani a domestic servant. William G. Young, Days of Small things (Rawalpindi:Christian Study Center, 1991), pp. 116,-127.
46
Megs was known as „Meg, ‟ and „Meng‟ and majority of them were weavers, though some were field labourers, and grass cutters. They used to live in Sialkot, Gurdaspur and Gujrat district. Their social and economic position was not good, and they used to eat the leavings of Muslims and high caste Hindus. In 1879, the Megs under the influence of one of their guru or religious leaders decided to change their eating habits in the 1900s. In their meeting, they finally decided not to eat leaving of others. They had already started to lose interest in idol worship. The Megs were considered superior to Chuhras in the whole of the district. Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab: With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carry Library, 1975), p. 33.
47
William B. Anderson and Charles R. Watson, For North in India: A Survey of the Mission field and Work of the United Presbyterian Church in Punjab (USA: Board of Foreign Mission of Presbyterian Church of North America, 1909), p. 218.
48
Lala Ganga Ram, The Uplift Movement at Sialkot Punjab, The Brief report of the Arya MeghUddhar Sabha, Aryan Mission for the uplift of the Megs Untouchables (Sialkot: Punjab Press, 1925), p. 2.
49
Bhagan and Kanaya and their families were 13 members. They with other two families those of Fakira and Jesus made total 30 members. Thus 50 percent of communicant members were from those four families and located in four villages Jhandran, NayaPind, Scottgarh, SukhoChekh (10 miles away from the Zafarwal).William B. Anderson and Charles R. Watson, For North in India: A Survey of the Mission field and Work of the United Presbyterian Church in Punjab (USA: Board of Foreign Mission of Presbyterian Church of North America, 1909), pp. 219-221.
50
Ganga Ram, The Uplift Movement at Sialkot Punjab, The Brief report of the Arya MeghUddhar Sabha, Aryan Mission for the uplift of the Megs Untouchables (Sialkot: Punjab Press, 1925. p.13.
51
Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab: With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carry Library, 1975), p. 40. 58 Pakistan Vision Vol. 19 No. 1

52
John C. B. Webster, „Christian Conversion in Punjab: What has Change‟ cited in Religious Conversion in India, Modes, Motivations, and Meanings edited by Rowena Robinson and Sathiana Clarke, (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2003), pp. 355-56.
53
James Massy, The Movement of Spirit (Switzerland: SCC Publication, 1996), p. 11.
54 
John C. B. Webster, The History of Dalit Christians in India (USA, Mellen Research University Press, 1992), p. 45.
55 
J. Waskom Pickett, Christian Mass Movement in India A Study with Recommendation (New York: Abingdon Press, 1933), p.45.
56 
John C. B. Webster, The Dalit Christian: A History, p. 59-60.
57 
James Massy, The Movement of Spirit (Switzerland: SCC Publication, 1996), P. 1.On other hand due to conversion of Chuhras Christians population increased in Sialkot district. See for detail The Christian Population In The Sialkot District
Year Population
1881 1535
1891 11668
1901 11930
1911 48620
1921 62266
1931 66266
Census of India, 1931 volume XVII part I Subsidiary Table III, p. 321.
58
Christopher Harding, Religious Transformation in South Asia: The Meanings of Conversion in Colonial Punjab (New York: Oxford University Press, 2008), p. 16. 59 William G. Young, Days of Small Things (Rawalpindi: Christian Study Center, 1991), p.100.
60
Vijay Prasad, Untouchables Freedom: A Social History of Dalit (New York: Oxford University Press, 2000), pp. 43-44.
61
Ronki Ram, „Untouchability in India with a difference Ad Dharm, Dalit Assertion, and Caste conflicts in Punjab‟ University of California Press, volume 44, No,6, 2004 retrieved Http: www.jstore.org/stable. p. 7.
62 
Mark Juergensmeyer, Religion as a Social Vision: A Movement against untouchability 20th Century Punjab (California, University of California Press, 1982), p. 269.
63 
Mark Juergensmeyer, Religion as a Social Vision: A Movement against untouchability 20th Century Punjab (California, University of California Press, 1982), pp.74-75
64
Ronki Ram, “Untouchability in India with a difference Ad Dharm, Dalit Assertion, and Caste conflicts in Punjab “University of California Press, volume 44, No,6, 2004 retrieved Http: www.jstore.org/stable. p.8
65
Under the influence of new political agility, the Dalit agitation was started in India in which the Dalit Christians also participated actively. In 1925, converted Christians conducted a conference, Anti-Untouchability Conference, in Madras to condemn the discrimination in Chuhras against Dalit Christians. See John C. Webster, John C Webster, A Social History of Christianity: North-West India since 1800 (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2007), p. 107.
66
Vijay Prasad, Untouchables Freedom: A Social History of Dalit (New York: Oxford University Press, 2000), p. 112.
67
John O‟ Brien, The Unconquered People The Liberation Journey of an Oppressed Castes (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012), p. 199.
68
Dr.Soran Singh, Scheduled Castes of India: Dimensions of Social Change (New Delhi: Gian Publishers, 1987) p.4.
69 
John O‟Brien,The Unconquered People: The Liberation Journey of an Oppressed Cate (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012), p. 198.
70
JoshuFazal-ud-Din, Tragedy of Untouchables (Lahore: Punjabi Darbar, 1934), pp. 20-21.

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## Kambojaric

Thanks for the share. Interesting read!

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## Taimur Khurram

Flyin turtle said:


> native religions



The Dharmic religions came with the Indo-Europeans, they're not anymore native to the region than the Abrahamic religions. 



Flyin turtle said:


> Any such study on post medieval Islamic conversions?
> It would be interesting to see the motivations of different indigenous groups and the causes for it.



They mostly converted either because it was popular in their area, because Hinduism just didn't intellectually satisfy them, or because the caste system treated them terribly.

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## Taimur Khurram

Flyin turtle said:


> Dharmic seals and symbols have been found upto Ivc in the past



Those are just indigenous elements Hinduism incorporated into it, Sufism did the same when it entered the region. 



Flyin turtle said:


> Would be interesting to look at the caste or tribe wise breakdown of conversion like the op.



Most Muslims in Pakistan either claim foreign descent or come from groups you'd consider low. But there is a sizeable minority of higher caste folk (mainly Rajputs).

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Flyin turtle said:


> Dharmic seals and symbols have been found upto Ivc in the past, indo europeans came much later.


Mostly based off of speculation.

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## Crusher

Taimur Khurram said:


> *The Dharmic religions came with the Indo-Europeans, they're not anymore native to the region than the Abrahamic religions. *



That is the ultimate truth which BJP/RSS gangus don't want to accept that the so-called "dharmic religions" were brought by eurasian foreigners from north western Asia in the second millennium BC, their so-called "beloved Sanskrit speaking Aryans". Why don't they feel shame in speaking the language of ancient eurasians and following their religious philosophies in the name of "dharmic" religions.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> *Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot District (1880-1930)*
> (Huma Pervaiz & Tahir Mahmood)
> 
> *Abstract*
> This article analyses the phenomenon of mass-conversion with reference to the Chuhra community of Sialkot district from 1880 to 1930. The focus is on two important aspects of mass-conversion movement in Sialkot District: first, the missionaries changed their pattern of interaction with the local community and focused on the lower segments of the society, second, the socio-economic marginality of Chuhra community pushed them towards mass conversion, and a new religious identity. It highlights the circumstances in which Chuhra mass-conversion movement materialised. Due to their marginalized status Chuhras always remained in search of a new identity.This pursuit for a new identity was based on their aspirations for socio-economic uplift. Consequently, most of the Chuhras came under the sway of Ad-Dharm movement of the 1920s.
> 
> 
> *Introduction*
> Rural Chuhra community embraced Christianity in large groups in the Sialkot District2. Their large scale conversion to Christianity, also known as massconversion in missionary literature3, started in the 1880s, and multitudes of Chuhras embraced Christianity. They nurtured aspiration to change their lowly socioeconomic status. Moreover, they wanted to join Christian religion due to the presence of upper caste converts and European Christians, and wished to become the part of ruling community by changing their religion. This aspiration for change can be noted in a conversation between a Chuhra and a British police officer; „now tell me‟ the chief (British Chief of Police) said, what good it has been for you [convert] to become a Christian?, Well I cannot tell you‟ said the man. For one thing, I am not afraid of you now, and I can go around among these villages with freedom, and people do not take me for a thief and rascal, as they used to do when we were heathen Chuhras. They take me for a man now.4
> 
> The existing literature on Christian community is mainly provincial and regional. The information on the mass-conversion in Sialkot district is patchy and based on survey research. Most of this literature was produced by the missionaries. Hardly any historical study has been undertaken to empirically study the Chuhra mass-conversion movement in the Sialkot district. This article aims to address this gap in the existing literature. This is the first micro-level study which looks at the Chuhra-conversion movement at grassroots level in the light of revealing new sources found in the missionary archives.
> 
> For socially suppressed segments of the society, the message of the gospel was a God sent boon. They considered the missions as God‟s agent of change. The lower castes started to convert with the spread of missionary activities not only in the Punjab but also throughout India during the twentieth century. The other lowercaste converts were Bhangi from U.P., Methars from Western India, Chamar from North India, and Madigas from central India.5 The Chuhras not only of Sialkot embraced Christianity, but their brethren elsewhere in Amritsar, Gurdaspur, Rawalpindi, Sheikhupura, and Gujranwala converted to the Christian religion. However, the conversion in other areas of Punjab wasn't on a large scale as compared to Sialkot.
> 
> Various Christian missions such as United Presbyterian (UP) mission, Church of Scotland, Church Missionary Society (CMS) and Roman Catholic mission played their role to convert the lower segments of society towards Christianity in Sialkot district.6 The process of mass-conversion was very rapid in this district.7 After only one decade (1881-1891) Christian population increased over 3,000.8 Among the overall converts, ninety-five percent came from Chuhra caste.9 Due to this reason, the primary focus of this study is to analyze two different aspects of Chuhra massmovement in district Sialkot. First it will shed light on the phenomenon of massconversion in the light fo missionary activities and second, it will analyse the process of conversion in the light of social, religious and economic factors.
> 
> *Meaning Of Mass-Movement*
> The term „mass-movement‟ is frequently employed by scholars to define group conversion of Chuhras towards Christianity in Sialkot district. However, some authors termed it differently. For example, Thakur Das used „history of Christian movement‟ (1880-1930) 10, Margret Stock, Fredrick, John C.B. Webster, and John Rooney used the term „Chuhra Movement‟11 and James Messy used the words „Holy Spirit Movement‟ for Christian mass-movement among the lower castes of Punjab.12 Regardless of the differences in terminology, all the scholars unanimously agree that mass conversion in Punjab, especially in Sialkot, took place from 1880s to 1930s.13
> 
> Church Missionary Society (CMS) defined the meaning of mass-movement in its study of 'Mass-Movement Survey of India‟ among lower castes which was conducted in 1927. According to the survey, “mass-movement is the conversion of people in groups as families or groups of families as a community or group of communities. They may number thousands, or only hundreds, or possibly even less. However, if the movement is one of the people in groups, as distinguished from the conversion of isolated individuals, it is a mass-movement.”14
> 
> The Chuhra mass-movement to Christianity was not a new phenomenon. Before this, there had been different mass-movements among different lower castes in various parts of India. The oldest among them was the conversion of Paravars (fisherman by caste) in 1573 in the Southern tip of Peninsula under the influence of Roman Catholics. 15 After the first mass conversion movement, many other mass conversion movements were witnessed in India. For example, a few of the prominent mass conversions are noted below;
> 
> Nadras of Tamil Nadu under Protestant Church during 1840.
> Krishngar (Bengal) in 1832 and Sikhs in Moradabad village (Utter Pradesh 1859) under Methodist mission.
> Mass conversion movement from 1889 to 1905 in Gujrat.
> Bhangis and Chamars in Western parts of India during the 1880s and 1890s. 16
> Paraiyar and Madharis of Trichinopoly-Tanjore (Andhara Pradesh) from 1931 to 1947.17
> 
> During the colonial era, especially in Punjab, different Christian missions (United Presbyterian Mission, Church of Scotland and Church Missionary Society) promoted mass conversion. Nonetheless, in Sialkot, United Presbyterian and Church of Scotland baptized mass-movement converts. 18 Moreover, under their influence, the movement also spread to other areas e.g. Gujranwala, Gujrat, and Waziarabad. Initially, missionaries were only interested in the conversion of wealthy individuals of Punjabi society. The purpose behind this inclination towards them was to promote the right image of the Christian community. In the words of Stephen Neill„It is part of mythology of missions that missionaries turned naturally to the poor and degraded, among whom they would find less resistance to their message, and neglected the higher castes.‟ But history shows that the exact opposite was the case. Almost every mission started with the attempt to reach higher castes.The poor were viewed with anxiety and a measure of embarrassment by the missionaries who believed that their all efforts of conversion might be prejudiced by the influx of mass of ignorant and despised people.19 Regardless of this policy of missionaries, when individuals from the lower caste started converting to the Christianity, missionaries did not have any other option but to accept them in Christianity.
> 
> *Formation Of Chuhra Identity In Sialkot District
> *
> *Social conditions of Chuhras*
> In Sialkot district, Chuhras houses were separated from other communities.20 Moreover, most of their population was residing in rural areas where they worked for Muslims and Hindus. They had their houses but were isolated from the other dwelt areas. They were allowed to construct and own houses by the landlords, and were provided with the material for the building. They can also collect fire wood with the permission of landlords. Their social contact with other communities was based on working ties. They were considered polluted and were not allowed to use wells of upper-castes and have their separate kachha (not constructed with backed bricks) wells. There was no notion of respect for them, and they were not even authorized to have decent names.21 Deep poverty and gross-ignorance ruled all the aspect of their social and cultural life. One of the missionaries described their social status in these words, "In the social scale they are as low and degraded as they can be, they are not only slave of the village in which they live but temporary slaves of the natives and European officers who may encamp in the village…People too depraved, too vicious, too immoral, and too ignorant‟. 22
> 
> The other village communities like Nai (barber), Mochi (cobblers), and Dhobi (washer man) used to serve Muslims and Hindus and remained away from Chuhras because of the fear of a boycott by the upper castes on the charge of having relation with untouchables. The only caste who served the Chuhras was barbers and they were considered Chuhras as well. In social life Chuhras had joint or extended family structure with patriarchal patterns. They used to live in Baradari (brother-hood) system23 on which their social status was based. Their Baradri system was further sub-divided in different gotras (clans) i.e. Gill, Bhatti, Mattu, Ladhar, Sahotra, Sindhu, Untawal, Boral, and Bahairwal.24 They used to settle their problems through the panchayat (council) that consisted of elders of their gotras. The situation of Chuhra woman was even worse than their counterpart men. Women were ignorant and believed in charms.25 However, their role in economic life was imperative. The Chuhra women helped men to support their families. Along with their husbands, they used to work at the house of landlords. For their services they received 1/3rd portion of the major crops.26
> 
> The seclusion of Chuhras from the society and the subsequent concept of pollution had many reasons. Most scholars believe that it was their eating habits that influenced other communities to consider them polluted. They lived the life of scavengers and used to eat dead animals. However, their eating habit was different in different areas.27 In Sialkot, Chuhras under the influence of Muhammadans avoided pork. However, they eat haram (unlawful in Isalm) flesh as well as halal without any distinction.28Along with eating habits, another reason because of which they were considered pollutants was betrothal ceremony. During the ceremony, father of bride used to ask for money in exchange of his daughter. Such selling of daughter was seen as a lowly dead by the general public.29 Moreover, inorder to incur expenses on marriage and related ceremonies, Chuhras used to borrow plenty of money from the landlords. Since most of the time they were unable to pay back the borrowed money, they remained under the subjugation of their landlords for gnerations. According to a Chuhra, “Though we are poor thus we marry our sons and daughters in a manner that would bring credit to us……after all izzat of biradari has some meaning… even if we cannot afford we must spend.‟30
> 
> *Economic Conditions of Chuhras*
> The Chuhras‟ most common work was sweeping and removing the night soil. They also used to remove the carcass. The sweeping became a more permanent profession of those Chuhras who migrated to cities. However, the rural Chuhras were actively engaged in agricultural labour which provided them social and economic survival in the agricultural economy. The Chuhras population mostly resided in villages, and rural society was predominately agricultural. Under the agricultural settings, Chuhras were known as Athri or Sepi. Arthi Chuhras were those who were employed only for agriculture labour. In returns, they would get daily food. On the other hand, sepi Chuhra was scavenger of the landlord‟s house. He can serve more than one landord family. He could also be employed for agricultural work.31 The system is known as Jagmani system in which lower castes were tied in a hereditary relation with the landlord and provided services to them in return for livelihood.32 The relation of Chuhras and landlords was hereditary. This hereditary relation of Chuhras with the master was not very simple in nature. Landlords, verly often, engaged them in forced labour. To protect them from this coercion, missionaries even supported the Chuhras against the oppression of landlords 33
> 
> *Religious Conditions of Chuhras*
> The common perception regarding Chuhras was that they were followers of the religion of dominant classes in their respective villages. In Muslim dominated areas they became Muslims and in the Hindu dominated areas they remained Hindus. In Hindu villages, they used to cremate their dead, but those living in the Muhammedan villages they followed burrial practice.34 However, regardless of this apparent following the practices of dominant religions, they always retained their distinct religious life. The Chuhras had their peculiar legends about their religious origin. Muslim Churahs used to call themselves as Bala Shahi or the followers of Lal Beg tradition and the Hindu Chuhras called themselves Balmiki. Although they claimed to be either Muslims and Hindus but they retained their peculiar regious practices. They had their separate shrines. Muslim Chuhras used to worship in the shrines of Bale-Shah, which usually stood in the center of Chuhra quarters.35 In Sialkot, where Muslim culture and religion was dominant, Chuhras claimed to be Bale-Shahis.36
> 
> In one of the tardition of the Chuhras the creation of the Lal Beg and their distinction from the Balmikis is described in the following manner, “when the Satan tempted Adam and Eve he was thrust down from heaven. Blood gushed from his nose and each drop became a pig. Allah-Talah brushed the sweat from his forehead and each drop became a dog. Then the Lord created sons of Balmik to be scavengers on earth and created Lal Beg to clean the steps of the throne of heaven”.37 H. A. Rose described different traditions which distinct Balmiki from Lal begs. About the origin of the Lal Beg he wrote that once Lord Shiva (Hindu God) rubbed his hand on the red stone and Lal Beg came out. Lal Beg was regarded as the Prophet of the sweepers.38
> 
> Chuhras, through these peculiar notions of origin and legend tried to create their own social space in the society. With the arrival of Islam, the Chuhra converted to Islam, linked their old traditions and legends with Islam in the form of Bala-e-Shah. Then under Sikhism, they started to propagate their relationship with the Sikhs Gurus especially with Guru Tegh Bahudar (1621-1675), who was the Ninth Sikh Guru and in this vein began to call themselves Rangetra (son of Guru).39 This certainly suggests that they struggled to find space not only in socio-economic terms but also in religious terms. In this way, their traditions and legends became a permanent source of their identity which defined their religiouis practices. Being despiesed by the upper caste followers of other major religions, they started to develop their own way of worship.
> 
> *Conversion In Sialkot: Some Discernible Trends*
> The Christian missions of Sialkot, United Presbyterians and Church of Scotland, were not in favour of converting individuals from lower castes. These missions only focused on the upper castes of Sialkot and could only mange to get a few converts. However, they largely remained unsuccessful to convert affluent people in significant numbers. Andrew Gordon, a missionary from United Presbyterian mission who spent many years to convert people from a high caste, remarked that they listened to him with considerable attention but did not denounce their faith publicly. Even a very few of them who were baptized later on reconverted to their former religion.40 This detachment of upper class forced missionaries to look towards depressed segments of the society. On another occasion, Andrew Gordon
> remarked that „I may say that I began my eyes upon the large towns and cities. However, have been led from them to the country villages. I began with educated classes and people of good social position and ended among the poor and lowly.‟41
> 
> Gordon‟s opinion regarding Chuhra conversion changed the mission‟s strategy and mission started working on the lower castes of Sialkot district. According to him, „If the honourable, the wise, and the great should be deterred from coming to Christ, the sin would lie in their pride, and not in our receiving the lowly.‟42 His opinion reverberated in the Mission which now cleary understood that only individual converts could not provide the podium for the formation of an allinclusive Christian community.
> 
> Like United Presbyterian mission most of the eminent missionaries of Scottish mission were also not favourably disposed towards lower caste converstion. William Harper (1874-1885)43 was the first Scottish missionary who showed dissatisfaction in lower caste converstion. Nevertheless, his successor Rev. John Taylor and Rev. Robert Paterson showed interest in the lower caste and established Barah Pather (an area close to the western side of Sialkot cantonment) as a headquarters of the mission and started converting individuals both from upper and lower tier of society.44
> 
> During Reverend Youngson‟s time, things changed dramatically. With the mass conversion of Chuhra community, especially in Sialkot, Gujrat, and Wazirabad,45 missions had to change their policies. After these mass conversions, missionaries started focusing on the convert from the lower segments of the society and tried to make them real Christians as well as economically independent citizens. Reverend Youngson opened a school for sweepers in 1885 at Daska with the aim to educate them for better economic life.
> 
> *Origin Of Mass Movement
> 
> The conversion of MEGS Tribe in Sialkot District*
> The origin of the mass movement in Sialkot district can be traced to an event of conversion when a person from Meg46 community was baptized in 1866.47 He belonged to the village of Jhandran, a mile from Zafarwal in Sialkot district. Megs were Hindus by religion and were a depressed caste of Sialkot. In appearance, Megs used to have bodi, a tuft of hair on the head, cremate their dead and treated cow as a sacred animal.48 Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot District (1880-1930) 47
> 
> The people of the village came under the influence of Jahawar Mashi (who was a newly employed catechist) and started to lose interest in idol worship. Mr. G. W. Scott also accompanied Jawahar Mashi, a missionary of United Presbyterian Mission, and began to preach Megs in Jahandarn village. After their preaching of Christianity, Megs converted in groups. This happened during a marriage ceremony, a Meg chief (Pipo) showed his inclination towards Christianity, and all of his tribesmen followed suit. Moreover, Pipo‟s influence also forced his younger brother Bhajan and his friend Kanaya to convert to Christianity. 49 Similarly, after the wedding incident, other followed their examples, and 25 more families were converted in 1859. By the end of 1884, the total converts coming from Meg community was 59.
> 
> After 1884, Megs‟ mass conversion movement lost its momentum. The reason behind the slow growth of the Megs‟ conversion was the Arya Samaj‟s (Hindu reformist movement, 1875) movement of purification. This movement provided the Megs a second chance to embrace their old religion that too without falling back to their old caste system. Before the conversion, Megs were facing discrimination.They were not allowed to draw water from the wells of Hindus and were even not allowed to share the carpets with Hindus. The massive conversion of Megs to Christianity alerted Hindu reformist organization i.e. Arya Samaj. They not only declared the Megs cleaned but also started to establish some schools and Arya Nagr colony to uplift the socioeconomic position of the Megs in Sialkot.50 The Arya Samaj was so effective that in 1908, 22,115 out of 40,000 Megs joined Arya Samaj.51
> 
> *The Chuhra Mass Movement
> *
> The Chuhra mass movement started with the conversion of a thirty-year-old Chuhra, named Ditt, in 1873. He lived in Shahbdike, a village three miles South of Mirali in Sialkot district.52
> At that time no Christian mission was working in his village. He met a Hindu Jat (Nathu Lal) of neighboring village who had converted to Christianity in 1872. During his interaction with Nathu Lal, he came to know about Christianity. After the meeting with Nathu, Ditt decided to embrace Christianity. In June 1873, Nathu accompanied him to Sialkot, where Rev. Samuel Martin baptized him under the United Presbyterian mission.
> 
> Ditt‟s request for conversion was sudden while missionaries used to check faith of converts by keeping them in mission compound for a few days before baptism. However, Rev.Samuel Martin found him sincere towards Christianity and baptized him. After baptism, Ditts got permission to go back to his village to preach his villagers and companions about the message of Christianity. Rev. Martin, although, reluctant to allow a Chuhra to preach Christianity, allowed him to do so. When he went back to his village, he had to face sharp reaction from his family. He was no more allowed to eat or drink with them. On his conversion, his sister in law expressed his feelings; “Alas my brother, you have changed your religion without asking our counsel: our relationship with you is over.”53 However, regardless of this bitter reaction he went from village to village and preached the message of Christianity to the Chuhra communities in Sialkot District.
> 
> After three months, he came back to Sialkot with his wife, daughter and two neighbors to Rev. Martin for baptism. Six months later Ditt came again with four other men one of them was his relative named Kaka, who joined him voluntarily for evangelical work.54 Consequently, after eleven years of Ditt‟s conversation, more than five hundred Chuhras approached church and half of them converted to Christianity.55 Similarly, Webster mentioned in his book that in 1886 there were 2,000 baptisms out of which 1,041 were reported in Zafarwal‟s area where the village of Ditt was located. 56 After the start of the mass movement, by 1900 half of people accepted Christianity and by 1915 all Chuhras in Sialkot district became Christian.57
> 
> Ditt‟s contribution changed the mindset of missionaries towards the use of native catechists. After his useful contributions, Missionaries used native converts to address other Chuhras to give them a message of Christ in an eloquent way. Christopher Harding used the expression of „Native Agency‟ for this.58 After changing the policy, rural catechist, teachers, and medical staff played a major role in evangelicalism and worked as mediators between missionaries and rural community. Subsequently, United Presbyterian missionaries and Scottish missionaries also adopted the same technique. Rev.Youngsons, especially in Gujrat, visited 100 villages in which he was assisted by one of his convert Didar Singh. Similarly, Rev.Willliam Harper used the services of his native converts (Kishan Chand and Nath Mall) to work in the villages of Daska and Sammbrial in 1874.59
> 
> Before the conversion of Chuhra class, as we have seen most of the missionaries were not set for converting lower classes. However, things changed after the mass conversion. Missionaries felt the need to educate converted persons to make them true Christians. Consequently, to impart religious education United Presbyterian mission started a Theological Seminary in 1877 at Sialkot. The seminary was an orphan education institution under the patronage of Sialkot United Presbyterian with Dr. J. S. Barr as principal. He was assisted by Andrew Gordon and G. L. Thakur Das. Under this initiative, one thousand two hundred and fifty-one children from lower class were admitted to the Church.
> 
> During the Chuhra mass-movement, converted community had to face two kinds of persecution. First, they had to face the persecution of the local landlords, who considered conversion to Christianity as heresy since most of the converts were not available for the minial work. This narrative was deliberately constructed to bring back the converts to their previous social and economic activities. Due to this persecution, some of Chuhra converts migrated to other parts of Punjab such as Julunder, Amritsar and Delhi. In these cities, especially in Delhi, Chuhras converts Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot Distric (1880-1930) 49 engaged themselves in sanitation department to fulfil their economic needs. They were regarded sweepers by the British, Hindus and Muslims. In 1921 almost eighty two percent of sweepers were from Chuhra community.60 However, the second kind of persecution was more severe. After conversion to Christianity family members and locals excommunicated them. This excommunication was backed by the activities of Arya Samaj in Sialkot district, especially in the areas of Megs. Arya Samaj unleashed a severe campaign against the conversion of first Megs and than Chuhras and increased the frequency of the ceremony of purification. However, to win back the converts, the Aryas worked for the socio-economic wellbeing of the Megs and Chuhras. For example, Lala Ganga Ram Vakil started a high school and ten vernacular education and carpentry schools in which children of Megs were admitted. Through this welfare work the Samajists succeeded in claiming back hundereds of Christian converts. As a result the depressed and marginalised communities became more resilient towards missionary activities.
> 
> *Culmination Of Mass Movement*
> The Chuhra mass conversion to Christianity started to slow down during the 1920s. The primary reason for the decline in the mass conversion was the emergence of another socio-religious movement among lower castes in Punjab. This movement was called as Ad-Dharm movement and was founded by Mango Ram. The AdDharm movement brought about a significant awareness among the lower castes and raised their consciousness about forming a new identity. The movement was against labeling lower castes as Hindu, Muslim or Sikh and promoted the idea of a separatere identity for the lower castes of all religions.61 The founder of Ad-Dharn movement believed that the fundamental reason behind the division in the society was the faith and to change the social order and to free the lower castes from the shackles of religious oppressions, a new religious alignment for lower caste is essential.62 This movement was not only for the converted Christians; many other castes such as sweepers, Chamar and Chuhra who were looking for some religious identity for their survival became Ad-Dharm.
> 
> Before the census of 1931, instructions were issued that all Chuhras who were not Muslims or Christians and did not have any desire to associate with any other religion should mention themselves as Hindus in the census. However, Ad-Dharm leader responded to this new policy and demanded that „they are not Hindu and should not be included in the Hindu category. They wanted the British government to accept them as a distinct identity. Consequently, their organization The 'Punjab Ad-Dharm Mandal‟ petitioned to the government that depressed castes should be returned as Ad-Dharm and eventually their request was accepted. In response to this policy change, a significant number of Chuhras and Chamars claimed to be Ad-Dharm in the census of 193163 i.e. the 418,789 untouchables in Punjab recorded AdDharm as their religion.64
> 
> Along with the Ad-Dharm movement, political activism of untouchables also impaired the growth of Christian community. Ad-Dharm was not only a movement championing for social-mobility its leaders in Punjab also tried to create a separate political consciousness. This political movement provided the untouchables and converted Christians a political platform to change their social and economic status. In the chnaged circumstances, the lower segments of the Punjabi society opted for political activism65 and begin to resent conversion. Moreover, from the 1920s onward the process of conversion to Christianity had come to an halt, and those who had a desire for change joined the Ad-Dharm movement.
> 
> Besides the reformist movements, many prominent political figures also supported the lower castes of India. A leader like Karam Chand Gandhi (1869-1949), used the term Harijan (1933), which mean children of God for the depressed castes.66 Moreover, Mr. Gandhi went to live in sweeper colony in Delhi in March 1946 and he prayed for the day when he will live in the house of a Harijan’.67 Similarly, Dr. Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar (1891-1956) a Dalit leader, demanded the right of separate electorates for untouchables in 1932. However, on the issues of untouchables, Dr. Ambedkar and Mr. Gandhi showed diverse opinions. Dr. Ambedkar was for providing legal status to the untouchables in the form of separate identities like Muslims and Hindus. Moreover, he believed that this goal could only be achieved by imparting education to the untouchables.68
> 
> On the other hand, Mr. Gandhi being a Veishia of Bania caste expressed his feelings for untouchables in these words “I want to attain mokska. I do not want to be reborn. But if I have to be reborn, I should be born an untouchable so that I may share their sorrows, sufferings and the affronts leveled at them, so that I may endeavor to free myself and them from that miserable condition.” 69 He always maintained his support for the Dalit community, but he was strictly against providing them separate electorate. Consequently, during the communal awards of 1932,untouchables were being considered to be recognized as a distinct identity but because of the protest of Gandhi the untouchables had to withdraw from their demands.70
> 
> *Conclusion
> *
> Due to their marginalised status the Chuhra community of Sialkot district looked for a new identity in order to improve its social status. After the arrival of Christian missionaries in Sialkot, Chuhras with a little persuasion embraced the new faith. Initially, Christian missionaries were not inclined for the conversion of lower castes. However, with the multitudes of Chuhras converting to Christianity, missionaries were left with no other option but to accept them. The missionaries trained the native converts and used them as mediators between them and other Chuhras for further evangelization. The mass-conversion among Chuhras resulted in massive growth of native Christians in Sialkot district. However, they still remained marginalized and were unable to intermingle with the highcast educated native and European Christians. They achieved economic opportunities to some extent but their identity became more stigmatized. Due to the rapid growth of Christianity among the depressed classes, the image of Christian community in Punjab became stigmatized i.e. all the Christian came to be known as Chuhra, and all the Chuhras came to be known as Christians. Under these circumstances, when they remained unable to change their stigmatized social status, they started looking for another identity. Consequently, of the Arya Samaj and the Ad-Dharm movement ebbed the tide of mass conversion to Christianity. A number of converted Christian were calimed back and still many more joined the Ad Dharam.
> 
> *Notes and References*
> 
> 1
> Chuhras is the sweeper and scavenger caste of Punjab. In Lahore and Sialkot they also functioned as agricultural labourers, village messengers and in some areas of the province they collected the cow dung. Denzil Ibbetson, Punjab Castes (Lahore, Government Printing Press, 1986), p. 209. Different censuses enumerated their population in the Sialkot District as follows.
> Year Population
> 1881 78980
> 1891 18419
> 1901 63811
> 1911 23895
> 1921 1231
> 1931 1688
> See for detail, Punjab District Gazetteer, volume XV part B, Sialkot District Statistical Tables (Lahore: Printing press Punjab, 1936), Table. 15, p. iii.
> 2
> Sialkot came into the fold of Imperial rule after the second battle of Anglo-Sikh war in 1849. During the colonial era, Sialkot district had four tehsils i.e. Sialkot, Zafarwal, Pasrur, and Daska. Captain J.R Dunlip Smith, Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894- 95, revised edition (Lahore: Civil and Military Gazette Press, 1895), p. 35.
> 3
> There are three important enquiries on rural Christian community especially on Chuhra Christians. These studies were related to the socio-economic conditions andresults of mass conversion among lower-caste converts in Sialkot District. First survey was conducted by Church Missionary Society named „Mass-Movement Survey of India‟ which was conducted in 1927 in seven region of India including Punjab. See for detail, „Report on The Mass Movement in Western India, A Survey and Statement of Need‟ (London: Church Missionary Society, 1926). Second study was conducted by Dr. J. Waskom Pickett „Director Mass Movement Study National Christian Council of India‟ (1929-1933). He conducted his research in ten different areas of India. In Punjab he focused on Christian Community of Pasrus, District Sialkot. See for detail J. Waskom Pickett, Christians Mass Movement in India: A study with Recommendation (New York: Abingdon Press, 1933). Third a survey was done among Chuhra Christian community by E.D Lucas and F. Thakur Das between1936- 1938 in eighteen villages in Sialkot and Narowal. See for detail E.D Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A study of social, economic, educational and religious conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district (Lahore: Forman Christian College, 1938).
> 4
> Reverend G.E Philips, The Outcaste’ Hope or Work among the Depressed Classes in India (London: 1912), p. 83. Also see, Rowena Robinson and Sathianathan Clarke, Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot Distric (1880-1930) 53 Religious Conversion in India: Modes, Motivation, and Meanings (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2003), p. 363.
> 5
> Chuhra was not the only community that accepted Christianity through mass conversion. Along with them many lower segments of the Punjabi society also witnessed mass-conversion i.e. Chamars an another scavenger caste, converted to Christianity in large number in Delhi, Amritsar and Gurdaspur. See Saurabh Mishra, “Of Poisoners: Tanners and British Raj: Redefining Chamar Identity in Colonial North India 1850-90”, The Indian Economic and Social History Review, July-September 2011, Vol XLVIII, No.3. pp. 318-19. See also John C.B. Webster, The Dalit Christians: A History (New Delhi: ISPCK, 2009), p. 35.
> 6
> Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894-95), p. 65.see also Fr. Leo, The Capuchin Mission in the Punjab: With Notes on the History, Geography, Ethnology and Religion of the Country (Punjab: Catholic Mission Press, 1910), p. 131.
> 7
> Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894-95), p. 65
> 8
> Kenneth W. Jones, Arya- Dharam; Hindu consciousness in 19th century Punjab (London: University of California, 1997), p. 12.
> 9
> Punjab District Gazetteer, Sialkot District 1920, Volume XXIII (Lahore: Punjab Printing Press, 1921), p. 58.
> 10
> E.D Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A study of social, economic, educational and religious conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district (Lahore: Forman Christian College, 1938), p. 10.
> 11
> Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab: With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carry Library, 1975), p. 66. Also see John Rooney, Into Desert (Rawalpindi: Christian Study Centre, 1986), p. 21., John C. B. Webster, The Dalit Christians: A History, p.71.
> 12
> James Massey, The Movement of Spirit (Switzerland: SCC Publication, 1996), p. 9.
> 13
> Christopher Harding, Religious Transformation in South Asia: The meaning of Conversion in Colonial Punjab (London Oxford University Press,2008), p. 5. William B Anderson and Charles R. Watson, Far North in India: A Survey of the Mission Field and Work of the United Presbyterian Church in the Punjab (Philadelphia, United Presbyterian Church of North America, 1909), p. 227. E. D. Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A Study of Social, Economic, Educational and Religious Conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district. p.11. Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in the Punjab: With special reference to the United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carey Library, 1929), p. 68. The Call from the Land of Five Rivers: A survey of Work of Church Missionary Society in Central Punjab, on The Mass Movement in Western India, A survey and statement of Need, Church Missionary Society, 1926, p. 7. Kenneth W. 54 Pakistan Vision Vol. 19 No. 1 Jones, Arya- Dharam; Hindu consciousness in 19th century Punjab (London: University of California, 1997) p. 12.
> 14
> The first survey was published in 1917 then second in 1921, and the third survey was conducted in 1927. According to the first study of CMS, the term „Mass Movement‟ seems to be applicable only when there is a definite forward movementtowards Christianity.' The Mass Movement Survey was conducted in seven regions i.e. Auragnabad, United Provinces, Central Punjab Punjab (Jogra), Travancore,Western India, Telugu country and in Santalia. Report on The Mass Movement in Western India, A survey and statement of Need, Church Missionary Society, 1926, p. 1. W. C. Pickett also defined the group conversion movement towards Christianity as a reception of the outcastes or untouchables into Church. It can be defined as the transformation of the small groups or conversion of the whole populace. In simple word, the mass movement conversion is either a small or large group movement towards Christianity. See. J. Waskom Pickett, Christian Mass Movement in India (New York: Ablungdon Press, 1933), p. 22. W. C. Pickett also defined the group conversion movement towards Christianity as a reception of the outcastes or untouchables into Church. It can be defined as the transformation of the
> small groups or conversion of the whole populace. In simple word, the mass movement conversion is either a small or large group movement towards Christianity.
> 15
> Parvaras were the depressed castes and being exploited by the Arab pirates and Hindu upper castes. They requested from the Portuguese for protection and conversion. Then in 1537, the whole caste was converted to Christianity. Duncan.Forrester, “The Depressed Classes and Conversion to Christianity”1860-1960 cited in Religion in South Asia: Religious Conversion and Revival Movements in South Asia in Medieval and Modern times by G. A. Oddie (London: Cruzan, 1977).
> 16.
> Eleanor, Zelliot, „The Psychological Dimensions of the Buddhist Movement in India‟, p.123
> 17
> John C.B. Webster, A History of Dalit Christians in India (San Francisco: Mellen Research University Press, 1992), pp. 38-39.
> 18
> The United Presbyterian (UP) was a first mission that started its activities in Sialkot district in 1855 under the guidance of Reverend Andrew Gordan, and missions focused only in the areas of Pasrur, Zafarwal, and Raya. After United Presbyterian mission, Sialkot district came under the control of Church of Scotland and chose Adah in Sialkot district as their headquarter in 1856. Moreover, Church of Scotland selected Gujrat, Wazirabad, and Daska as their main mission stations. Along with Church of Scotland and United Presbyterian missions, Roman Catholics also started their mission activities in Sialkot under the guidance of Reverend Dr. Mourad, Bishop of Lahore, in 1893. Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894-95, p. p. 65. Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot Distric (1880-1930) 55
> 19
> R. K. Wilson, The Twice Alienated: Culture of Dalit Christians (Hyderabad: Bobolinks Publishers, 1982), p. 15.
> 20
> Gazetteer of the Sialkot 1894-95), p. 48.
> 21
> Restrictions were more rigid in other parts of India, especially in Kangra District(South India), where the majority of the population was Hindus. In some other areas in India, especially in U.P, some lower castes like Chamars and Dhobi (washer man) were treated better and were allowed to use the water of wells of upper castes. However, Chuhras were not allowed. See for detail Dr. Soran Singh, Scheduled Castes of India, dimensions of Social change (New Delhi: Gian Publishers, 1987), p. 10.
> 22
> Allaud, Dean Asini, „Christian Minority in West Punjab‟, PhD Dissertation, School of Education, New York University, 1964, p. 83.
> 23
> Clement Ashley Waidyasekara, Brotherhood in Punjabi Culture and Gospel Message (Colombo: Rufiana Graphics, 2007), p. 54.
> 24
> Linda S Walbridge, The Christians of Pakistan: The Passion of Bishop John Joseph (New York: Routledge, 2003), p. 15.
> 25
> William Crooke, Religion and Folklore of Northern India (Oxford University Press,1926), P. 326.
> 26 E. D. Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A study of social, economic, educational and religious conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district (Lahore: Forman Christian College, 1938), p. 15.
> 27
> In Gujrat Chuhra used to eat dead animals especially those which had died a natural death. These included lizard and wild cat but did not eat jackal, fox and tortoise. In Montgomery all Chuhras ate flesh of dead animals. H. A. Rose, A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province, volume II (Lahore: Aziz Publishers, 1978), p. 190.
> 28
> Ibid. 190.
> 29
> D. J. Boyd, Customary Laws in Sialkot District (Lahore: Government Printing Press,1917), p. 5.
> 30
> E. D. Lucas and F. Thakur Das, The Rural Church in Punjab: A study of social, economic, educational and religious conditions prevailing amongst certain village Christian communities in Sialkot district (Lahore: Forman Christian College, 1938), p. 36. 31 John C.B. Webster, A History of Dalit Christians inIndia (San Franco: Mellen Research University Press, 1992), P.14. See also Punjab District Gazetteers of Sialkot 1912, Religion Part A, statistical table (Lahore: Mufid-i-Am Press, 1913), p.110.
> 32
> Louis E. Fenech, “Conversion and Sikh tradition” cited in Religious conversion in India, Modes, Motivations, and Meaning by Rowena Robinson and Sathianathan Clarke (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2003), p.296. 56 Pakistan Vision Vol. 19 No. 1
> 33
> Jeffrey Cox, Imperial Fault Lines: Christianity and Colonial Power inIndia (1818-1940) (California: Stanford University Press, 2002), p.126.
> 34
> Census of India 1911, volume XIV, Punjab, Part I, Report by Pandit Harikishan Kaul (Lahore: Civil and Military Gazette, 1921), p. 111.
> 36
> Jon. C.B. Webster, The Dalit Christians: A History (New Delhi: ISPCK, 2009), p.64.
> 37
> John O‟Brien, The Unconquered People: The Liberation Journey of Oppressed Caste (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012), p. 47.
> 38
> H. A. Rose, A Glossary of Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province. p. 20
> 39
> The Chuhras founded more acceptance in Sikhism because it was believed that executed body of Guru Tegh Bahadur was carried out from Delhi and handed over to his son Guru Gobind Singh by Chuhras. Than the Chuhras were accepted in Sikhism as a reward of their service. See for detail B.W Srivastava, Manual Scavenging in India: A Disgrace to the Country (New Delhi: Concept Publishers, 1997),p. 27.
> 40
> Frederick and Margaret, Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab:With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William CarryLibrary, 1975), pp. 21-23.
> 41J
> ames Massy, The Movement of Spirit (Switzerland: SCC Publication, 1996), p. 7.
> 42
> Frederick and Margaret, Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab: With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carr Library, 1975), p.20.
> 43
> He was born 1845, at Monquhitter in Buchan. He sailed for India with his wife Isabella. After William Hunter, he was given charge of Sialkot Mission. They had three children one of his daughter was buried in Sialkot. His area of influence was Sialkot, Sammbral, and Daska.
> 44
> There were some important converts from Islam and Hinduism such as Karm Chand (1876), Imam-ud-din (1877), Gopal Chand (1878), Muhammad Hanif(1878),YisuRakh(1879), IllahiBaksh(1880), HidayatUllah(1882). Karam Chand baptized but remained under pressure from his family that forced him to come back to their religion. One day he was preaching in Sialkot and did not return to the mission again.Later on, it was discovered that he had become a Sikh. Similarly, Yasu Rakha father was Qanungo of Sialkot Tehsil, and one of his uncles was Diwan of Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir. After getting his education in a cityschool, he went to Kashmir. He became annoyed with the idol worship and under the influence of Maulivi he became Muslim. However, hewas not satisfied. He appeared in Hunter Memorial Church and declared his faith in Christ and changed Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot Distric (1880-1930) 57 his name from Ram Rakha to Yisu Rakha. In the same way, Hidayat Ullah, adopted son of wealthy man in Jammu, was a student of mission high school Sialkot. Heexpressed his desire to become a Christine. However, he left for Peshawar and then for Jullundur because he had to face persecution. Later on, he was baptized in Jullundur. William G. Young, Days of Small Things (Rawalpindi: Christian Study Center, 1991), pp. 23-24.
> 45
> Native converts from Gujrat and Wazirabad under Rev. Youngson included Karam Bibi, Sadiq Masih, and Akbar Ali. Some other converts were Burhi (1881 Dec 18) a son of teachers, Samanda son of Murad Bakshzamindar, Jaimal son of domesticservant, CharanMashi son of the coolie ,Channu, son of a domestic servant and Rani a domestic servant. William G. Young, Days of Small things (Rawalpindi:Christian Study Center, 1991), pp. 116,-127.
> 46
> Megs was known as „Meg, ‟ and „Meng‟ and majority of them were weavers, though some were field labourers, and grass cutters. They used to live in Sialkot, Gurdaspur and Gujrat district. Their social and economic position was not good, and they used to eat the leavings of Muslims and high caste Hindus. In 1879, the Megs under the influence of one of their guru or religious leaders decided to change their eating habits in the 1900s. In their meeting, they finally decided not to eat leaving of others. They had already started to lose interest in idol worship. The Megs were considered superior to Chuhras in the whole of the district. Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab: With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carry Library, 1975), p. 33.
> 47
> William B. Anderson and Charles R. Watson, For North in India: A Survey of the Mission field and Work of the United Presbyterian Church in Punjab (USA: Board of Foreign Mission of Presbyterian Church of North America, 1909), p. 218.
> 48
> Lala Ganga Ram, The Uplift Movement at Sialkot Punjab, The Brief report of the Arya MeghUddhar Sabha, Aryan Mission for the uplift of the Megs Untouchables (Sialkot: Punjab Press, 1925), p. 2.
> 49
> Bhagan and Kanaya and their families were 13 members. They with other two families those of Fakira and Jesus made total 30 members. Thus 50 percent of communicant members were from those four families and located in four villages Jhandran, NayaPind, Scottgarh, SukhoChekh (10 miles away from the Zafarwal).William B. Anderson and Charles R. Watson, For North in India: A Survey of the Mission field and Work of the United Presbyterian Church in Punjab (USA: Board of Foreign Mission of Presbyterian Church of North America, 1909), pp. 219-221.
> 50
> Ganga Ram, The Uplift Movement at Sialkot Punjab, The Brief report of the Arya MeghUddhar Sabha, Aryan Mission for the uplift of the Megs Untouchables (Sialkot: Punjab Press, 1925. p.13.
> 51
> Frederick and Margaret Stock, People Movement in Punjab: With Special Reference to United Presbyterian Church (United States: William Carry Library, 1975), p. 40. 58 Pakistan Vision Vol. 19 No. 1
> 
> 52
> John C. B. Webster, „Christian Conversion in Punjab: What has Change‟ cited in Religious Conversion in India, Modes, Motivations, and Meanings edited by Rowena Robinson and Sathiana Clarke, (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2003), pp. 355-56.
> 53
> James Massy, The Movement of Spirit (Switzerland: SCC Publication, 1996), p. 11.
> 54
> John C. B. Webster, The History of Dalit Christians in India (USA, Mellen Research University Press, 1992), p. 45.
> 55
> J. Waskom Pickett, Christian Mass Movement in India A Study with Recommendation (New York: Abingdon Press, 1933), p.45.
> 56
> John C. B. Webster, The Dalit Christian: A History, p. 59-60.
> 57
> James Massy, The Movement of Spirit (Switzerland: SCC Publication, 1996), P. 1.On other hand due to conversion of Chuhras Christians population increased in Sialkot district. See for detail The Christian Population In The Sialkot District
> Year Population
> 1881 1535
> 1891 11668
> 1901 11930
> 1911 48620
> 1921 62266
> 1931 66266
> Census of India, 1931 volume XVII part I Subsidiary Table III, p. 321.
> 58
> Christopher Harding, Religious Transformation in South Asia: The Meanings of Conversion in Colonial Punjab (New York: Oxford University Press, 2008), p. 16. 59 William G. Young, Days of Small Things (Rawalpindi: Christian Study Center, 1991), p.100.
> 60
> Vijay Prasad, Untouchables Freedom: A Social History of Dalit (New York: Oxford University Press, 2000), pp. 43-44.
> 61
> Ronki Ram, „Untouchability in India with a difference Ad Dharm, Dalit Assertion, and Caste conflicts in Punjab‟ University of California Press, volume 44, No,6, 2004 retrieved Http: www.jstore.org/stable. p. 7.
> 62
> Mark Juergensmeyer, Religion as a Social Vision: A Movement against untouchability 20th Century Punjab (California, University of California Press, 1982), p. 269.
> 63
> Mark Juergensmeyer, Religion as a Social Vision: A Movement against untouchability 20th Century Punjab (California, University of California Press, 1982), pp.74-75
> 64
> Ronki Ram, “Untouchability in India with a difference Ad Dharm, Dalit Assertion, and Caste conflicts in Punjab “University of California Press, volume 44, No,6, 2004 retrieved Http: www.jstore.org/stable. p.8
> 65
> Under the influence of new political agility, the Dalit agitation was started in India in which the Dalit Christians also participated actively. In 1925, converted Christians conducted a conference, Anti-Untouchability Conference, in Madras to condemn the discrimination in Chuhras against Dalit Christians. See John C. Webster, John C Webster, A Social History of Christianity: North-West India since 1800 (New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2007), p. 107.
> 66
> Vijay Prasad, Untouchables Freedom: A Social History of Dalit (New York: Oxford University Press, 2000), p. 112.
> 67
> John O‟ Brien, The Unconquered People The Liberation Journey of an Oppressed Castes (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012), p. 199.
> 68
> Dr.Soran Singh, Scheduled Castes of India: Dimensions of Social Change (New Delhi: Gian Publishers, 1987) p.4.
> 69
> John O‟Brien,The Unconquered People: The Liberation Journey of an Oppressed Cate (Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2012), p. 198.
> 70
> JoshuFazal-ud-Din, Tragedy of Untouchables (Lahore: Punjabi Darbar, 1934), pp. 20-21.


Most Chuhras claim descent from South India where they were brought as laborers or servants to Punjab by the British. 

This similarly happened in the West Indies and other regions throughout the world that were under British Rule.

Pakistani Chuhras:











Guyanese Indians

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## M. Sarmad

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Most Chuhras claim descent from South India where they were brought as laborers or servants to Punjab by British.



Source please

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## Vikki

Churas are aboriginal people of pakistan...these light skinned people came later and displaced and oppressed them..chooras are the true bhoomi putras of pakistan


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## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> Source please


Try speaking to one, I lived in Sialkot and was interested in learning their origin since they are small in population and look foreign. In their Mohallas they sometimes have a meeting between elders on their Charpais under the shade of trees where they discuss business, marriages, problems and etc...

One day, I straight up went and just asked. They were very supportive of my curiosity and were anxious to share their family histories. Though some of them had a persecution complex, they were very proud of their Christian heritage. 



Flyin turtle said:


> Existence of ivc is speculation or its age being older than invaders?
> 
> Both are well documented to be 4000 years old at least, or is it nit acceptable that dharmic religions are roots of Ivc and pakistan too?


Hinduism had little to no links to the Indus Valley Civilization; despite some people trying to connect vague seals/symbols to that of Hinduism, there is no solid evidence.

Hinduism formed from the post-Vedic religions of the Ganges Region derived from the merging of Middle Vedic and indigenous Gangetic cultures/traditions/religions; hence why Vedism is profoundly different and even contradicting to Hinduism.

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## M. Sarmad

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Try speaking to one, I lived in Sialkot and was interested in learning their origin since they are small in population and look foreign. In their Mohallas they sometimes have a meeting between elders on their Charpais under the shade of trees where they discuss business, marriages, problems and etc...
> 
> One day, I straight up went and just asked. They were very supportive of my curiosity and were anxious to share their family histories. Though some of them had a persecution complex, they were very proud of their Christian heritage.



Bro, I asked for a reliable academic source. I myself belong to the Sialkot/Narowal area and I have never seen a local _Christian/Chuhra_ claim _South Indian _origins.

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## Taimur Khurram

Flyin turtle said:


> or is it nit acceptable that dharmic religions are roots of Ivc and pakistan too?



It's not acceptable because it's factually incorrect.

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## Canuck786

Vikki said:


> Churas are aboriginal people of pakistan...these light skinned people came later and displaced and oppressed them..chooras are the true bhoomi putras of pakistan



*Here be surprised by the truth..*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sialkot


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## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> Bro, I asked for a reliable academic source. I myself belong to the Sialkot/Narowal area and I have never seen a local _Christian/Chuhra_ claim _South Indian _origins.


There is no academic source on my personal experience, sorry to disappoint you. As I said, since you 'belong' to the Sialkot/Narowal area, then you can speak to them. There is a very large Christian mohalla right next to Jamia Masjid by the Net Cafe in Sialkot Cantt. That is the community I spoke to.

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## Vikki

Canuck786 said:


> *Here be surprised by the truth..*
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sialkot


No prehistory info on tht page


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## Canuck786

Vikki said:


> No prehistory info on tht page


I guess you didn't read these parts:

*Greek*
The first record of Sialkot dates from the invasion of Alexander the Great, who conquered upper Punjab in 326 BCE.[15] The _Anabasis of Alexander_, written by the Roman-Greek historian Arrian, recorded that Alexander captured ancient Sialkot, recorded as *Sagala,* from the _Cathaeans,_ who had entrenched themselves there.[17][18] The city had been home to 80,000 residents on the eve of Alexander's invasion,[18] but was razed as a warning against any other nearby cities that might resist his invasion.[18]

*Indo-Greek*
The ancient city was rebuilt, and made capital by the Indo-Greek king Menander I, of the Euthydemid dynasty,[19] who ruled between 135 and 160 BCE.[16] The rebuilt city was shifted slightly from the older city, as rebuilding on exactly the same spot was considered an ill-omen.[20]

Under Menander's rule, the city greatly prospered as a major trading centre renowned for its silk.[9][15] Menander embraced Buddhism, in a process recorded in the Buddhist text _Milinda Panha_.[16] The text offers an early description of the city's cityscape and status as a prosperous trade centre with numerous green spaces.[21] Following his conversion, Sialkot developed as a major centre for Buddhist though.[22]

Ancient Sialkot was recorded by Ptolemy in his 1st century CE work, _Geography,_[23][19] in which he refers to the city as Euthymedeia (_Εύθυμέδεια_).[24]

*White Huns*
Around 460 CE, the Hephthalites, also known as the White Huns, invaded the region from Central Asia,[25] forcing the ruling family of nearby Taxila to seek refuge in Sialkot.[26] Sialkot itself was soon captured, and the city was made capital of the Hephthalite Empire around 515,[27] during the reign of Toramana.[28] During the reign of his son, Mihirakula, the Hephthalite Empire reached its zenith.[29] The Hepthalites were defeated in 528 by a coalition of princes led by Prince _Yasodhara._[28]

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## SIPRA

M. Sarmad said:


> Bro, I asked for a reliable academic source. I myself belong to the Sialkot/Narowal area and I have never seen a local _Christian/Chuhra_ claim _South Indian _origins.



I haven't read the OP article, which specifically talks about Sialkot. Generally, I think, that there is a whole lot of these unfortunate people, who originally belonged to the lowest cast cadres of Hinduism. At various times, a part of them converted to Islam, Christianity or Sikhism, primarily to get out of their persistent social degradation. In Punjab, they are variously called "Churha", "Cheyur", "Musalli", "Chammar", and some other names, perhaps, which I don't recall; though all of these names carry extreme derogatory connotations. Many of them are landless and live in temporary and movable shelters/shacks. I believe that most of them belong to the land.

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## Crusher

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> There is no academic source on my personal experience, sorry to disappoint you. *As I said, since you 'belong' to the Sialkot/Narowal area, then you can speak to them.* There is a very large Christian mohalla right next to Jamia Masjid by the Net Cafe in Sialkot Cantt. That is the community I spoke to.



Exactly that is what I want to encourage people in pakistan that we should stop blindly believing what is wriiten by "angraiz" during his colonial rule in this part of the world. We have access to every community on the ground and in most cases most of their elders can tell you far more legitimate first hand information about themselves than what we will get from some book in the library written by some "gora sahab", we need to come out of this slave mentality that what is written by "angraiz" is some kind of "divine" truth and we must believe it. We want to know about the origin of "chura" people, we should just talk to them they are everywhere in Sialkot, Gujranwala, Lahore and other areas of punjab, we don't really need to know about them from some sh1tty book written by some foreigner gora sahab some 100 years ago.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> The Dharmic religions came with the Indo-Europeans, they're not anymore native to the region than the Abrahamic religions.


haha what now, did you find edicts of Vedas and Upanishads in Greece? Or is it that, Buddha was born in Venice and Mahavira in Rome, Guru Nanak in Russia.
Puns aside, Dharmic religions are not of Indo-European origin, even if it followed Aryan migration theory there is no evidence to suggest that they are foreign to this land. Dharmic religions originated and flourished in the Subcontinent.


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## Vikki

Canuck786 said:


> I guess you didn't read these parts:
> 
> *Greek*
> The first record of Sialkot dates from the invasion of Alexander the Great, who conquered upper Punjab in 326 BCE.[15] The _Anabasis of Alexander_, written by the Roman-Greek historian Arrian, recorded that Alexander captured ancient Sialkot, recorded as *Sagala,* from the _Cathaeans,_ who had entrenched themselves there.[17][18] The city had been home to 80,000 residents on the eve of Alexander's invasion,[18] but was razed as a warning against any other nearby cities that might resist his invasion.[18]
> 
> *Indo-Greek*
> The ancient city was rebuilt, and made capital by the Indo-Greek king Menander I, of the Euthydemid dynasty,[19] who ruled between 135 and 160 BCE.[16] The rebuilt city was shifted slightly from the older city, as rebuilding on exactly the same spot was considered an ill-omen.[20]
> 
> Under Menander's rule, the city greatly prospered as a major trading centre renowned for its silk.[9][15] Menander embraced Buddhism, in a process recorded in the Buddhist text _Milinda Panha_.[16] The text offers an early description of the city's cityscape and status as a prosperous trade centre with numerous green spaces.[21] Following his conversion, Sialkot developed as a major centre for Buddhist though.[22]
> 
> Ancient Sialkot was recorded by Ptolemy in his 1st century CE work, _Geography,_[23][19] in which he refers to the city as Euthymedeia (_Εύθυμέδεια_).[24]
> 
> *White Huns*
> Around 460 CE, the Hephthalites, also known as the White Huns, invaded the region from Central Asia,[25] forcing the ruling family of nearby Taxila to seek refuge in Sialkot.[26] Sialkot itself was soon captured, and the city was made capital of the Hephthalite Empire around 515,[27] during the reign of Toramana.[28] During the reign of his son, Mihirakula, the Hephthalite Empire reached its zenith.[29] The Hepthalites were defeated in 528 by a coalition of princes led by Prince _Yasodhara._[28]


Is that prehistory? Thats almost 2000 years after aryans came to india...
Do you know the definition of prehistory?
The period of time before written records. The writing was very much there by 326bc..who were the people in pakistan before aryans came?


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## takeiteasy

That's why Pakistanis & North Indians see Christians as low castes. Christianity is essentially a missionary religion in most of India. FYI, Syrian Christians, Goan, Mangalorean Konkani Christians are considered FC.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> Dharmic religions are not of Indo-European origin,



Yes they are. Literally everyone other than Indian nationalists accept this, the evidence is overwhelming.

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## M. Sarmad

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> There is no academic source on my personal experience, sorry to disappoint you. As I said, since you 'belong' to the Sialkot/Narowal area, then you can speak to them. There is a very large Christian mohalla right next to Jamia Masjid by the Net Cafe in Sialkot Cantt. That is the community I spoke to.





Simurgh said:


> Exactly that is what I want to encourage people in pakistan that we should stop blindly believing what is wriiten by "angraiz" during his colonial rule in this part of the world. We have access to every community on the ground and in most cases most of their elders can tell you far more legitimate first hand information about themselves than what we will get from some book in the library written by some "gora sahab", we need to come out of this slave mentality that what is written by "angraiz" is some kind of "divine" truth and we must believe it. We want to know about the origin of "chura" people, we should just talk to them they are everywhere in Sialkot, Gujranwala, Lahore and other areas of punjab, we don't really need to know about them from some sh1tty book written by some foreigner gora sahab some 100 years ago.




Do you guys know that before their mass conversion to Christianity began in 1880, The _Chuhras_ of Punjab were the fourth largest caste of Punjab after Jats, Rajputs, and Brahmans?


There were 1,078,739 _Chuhras_ in Punjab as per the 1881 Census. Now add 1,072,699 _Chamars_, 349,272 _Mochis_ (Muslim Chamars) and 5,028 _Chamrangs_ and we are talking about almost 15% of the total population of Punjab here.

You seriously believe they are South Indian immigrants in Punjab?? It is probable that they are essentially of aboriginal origin. They refused to give up their aboriginal beliefs and dietary habits, and that's why they had become 'outcasts' in the first place. Leave aside your bias and try to think rationally.



RIWWIR said:


> In Punjab, they are variously called "Churha", "Cheyur", "Musalli", "Chammar", and some other names, perhaps, which I don't recall; though all of these names carry extreme derogatory connotations. Many of them are landless and live in temporary and movable shelters/shacks. I believe that most of them belong to the land.



_Chuhras_ are not the same as _Chamars_. Both of them, however, have been classified as 'Scavanger castes'...

_Musallis_ and _Kutanas_ are Muslim Churahs, _Mazhabi Sikhs_ and _Rangreta_ are Sikh Chuhras

Yes, they belong to the land of Punjab

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## Canuck786

Vikki said:


> Is that prehistory? Thats almost 2000 years after aryans came to india...
> Do you know the definition of prehistory?
> The period of time before written records. The writing was very much there by 326bc..who were the people in pakistan before aryans came?


What part of the old city of 'Sagala' being razed by Alexander (erasing old history) and later rebuilt and inhabited at a new location with fresh start by Menander (who was an Indo-Greek King) and his forces wasn't clear to you.


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## Crusher

M. Sarmad said:


> *Chuhras are not the same as Chamars.* Both of them, however, have been classified as 'Scavanger castes'...
> 
> _Musallis_ and _Kutanas_ are Muslim Churahs, _Mazhabi Sikhs_ and _Rangreta_ are Sikh Chuhras
> 
> Yes, they belong to the land of Punjab



That is exactly the case most people tend to group churas and chammar together eventhough they are NOT the same people. Muslim Chammars are indeed called "Mochi" in pakistani punjab, essentially leather workers and shoe makers and they always lived within the village. The bias against them originates from the old tradition of hindu's brahminical disgust towards people working with animal leather. "Chura" on the other hand were the clear "outcasts" who were only involved in sweeping or bonded labor work in the past.

Most Chammars tend to be from the indigenous nomadic communities of punjab but I still believe that "Churas" have a predominantly a non-local eastern origins, they just came here from time to time for bonded labor and sweeper works. Chammars/Mochis on the other hand most probably are the remnants of the oldest inhabitants of Punjab. Also Chammars/Mochis look like local "punjabis" with harsh features but mostly darker skin but lighter skinned mochi/chammar individuals are also not "uncommon", whereas the "churas" have non-punjabi soft features and very dark skin tones that are only seen deep in india.

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## M. Sarmad

Simurgh said:


> Most Chammars tend to be from the indigenous nomadic communities of punjab *but I still believe that "Churas" have a predominantly a non-local eastern origins*, *they just came here from time to time* for bonded labor and sweeper works. Chammars/Mochis on the other hand most probably are the remnants of the oldest inhabitants of Punjab. Also Chammars/Mochis look like local "punjabis" with harsh features but mostly darker skin, whereas the "churas" have non-punjabi soft features and very dark skin tones that are only seen deep in india.



The fact that they were the fourth largest caste in British Punjab undermines the migration theory. Also, there is nothing _'Southern'_ about the names of their gotras: Sahotra, Gill, Bhatti, Khokhar, Mattu, Kharu, Kaliyana, Ladhar, Sindhu, Chhapriband, Unthwal, Hansi, Dhariwal etc.


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## Crusher

M. Sarmad said:


> The fact that they were the fourth largest caste in British Punjab undermines the migration theory. Also, there is nothing _'Southern'_ about the names of their gotras: Sahotra, Gill, Bhatti, Khokhar, Mattu, Kharu, Kaliyana, Ladhar, Sindhu, Chhapriband, Unthwal, Hansi, Dhariwal etc.



I believe they just adopted the clan names of their landlords so that is not a big indicator of their indigenous origins. Instead of South india, I believe most of the churas came to punjab from gangetic plains from time to time throughout the history of punjab whenever the agriculture flourished here and there were increased needs for more labor and sweeper workforce, it is always about economy, economy is what drives the migration/settlements of people from one area to the other. Churas definitely look out of place in Gujranwala/Sialkot areas.

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## M. Sarmad

Simurgh said:


> I believe they just adopted the clan names of their landlords so that is not a big indicator of their indigenous origins. Instead of South india, I believe most of the churas came to punjab from gangetic plains from time to time throughout the history of punjab whenever the agriculture flourished here and there were increased needs for more labor and sweeper workforce, it is always about economy, economy is what drives the migration/settlements of people from one area to the other. Churas definitely look out of place in Gujranwala/Sialkot areas.



It's mere speculation.... There should be at least some evidence to support this migration theory to even discuss it.

And Chuhras may look out of place in Gujranwala/Sialkot areas, but at the time of partition, they (excluding Musallis) made up 9.56% of the total population of Gujranwala Tehsil, 8.67% of Daska Tehsil, 9.12% of Sheikhupura Tehsil, 8.09% of Shahdara Tehsil, 7.23% of Narowal Tehsil, 6.20% of Sialkot Tehsil, and 6.84% of Gurdaspur Tehsil. These numbers are simply too large to ignore.


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## Sine Nomine

M. Sarmad said:


> The fact that they were the fourth largest caste in British Punjab undermines the migration theory. Also, there is nothing _'Southern'_ about the names of their gotras: Sahotra, Gill, Bhatti, Khokhar, Mattu, Kharu, Kaliyana, Ladhar, Sindhu, Chhapriband, Unthwal, Hansi, Dhariwal etc.


Most of them have taken these names from a known predominant caste of their area, e.g Khokhar/Bhattis are Rajputs and Sindhu/Gill are Jat.

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## Nilu Pule

M. Sarmad said:


> It's mere speculation.... There should be at least some evidence to support this migration theory to even discuss it.
> 
> And Chuhras may look out of place in Gujranwala/Sialkot areas, but at the time of partition, they (excluding Musallis) made up 9.56% of the total population of Gujranwala Tehsil, 8.67% of Daska Tehsil, 9.12% of Sheikhupura Tehsil, 8.09% of Shahdara Tehsil, 7.23% of Narowal Tehsil, 6.20% of Sialkot Tehsil, and 6.84% of Gurdaspur Tehsil. These numbers are simply too large to ignore.


There are so similarities between upper caste Pakistani Punjabis and Indian Punjabis.

The former claims lower caste Punjabis are migrants from South India while the later calls them migrants from UP/Bihar.

Just wow!! These aboriginals of the land are being called "outsider' by descendants of outsiders.

@RIWWIR @SorryNotSorry @Vikki @Levina @jamahir


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## M. Sarmad

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Most of them have taken these names from a known predominant caste of their area, e.g Khokhar/Bhattis are Rajputs and Sindhu/Gill are Jat.



That's quite possible.

But the point is that as the overlapping of gotras among the Punjabi Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, Ahirs etc. is quite common, the overlapping of gotras of Chuhras with the gotras of other Punjabi castes _indicates_ that they too are indigenous to this land and they have been living in the same area along with other castes of the area for a _long_ time.


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## Taimur Khurram

M. Sarmad said:


> Punjabi Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, Ahirs



Ahirs have overlapping gotras with those three?


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## SIPRA

Nilu Pule said:


> There are so similarities between upper caste Pakistani Punjabis and Indian Punjabis.
> 
> The former claims lower caste Punjabis are migrants from South India while the later calls them migrants from UP/Bihar.
> 
> Just wow!! These aboriginals of the land are being called "outsider' by descendants of outsiders.
> 
> @RIWWIR @SorryNotSorry @Vikki @Levina @jamahir



My dear sir: I don't enter into useless and futile historical and sociological discussions, as far as the fundamental rights of a person are concerned. To me, all the human beings are fundamentally equal; a person belongs to the land/state, where he is born or naturalized, irrespective of his ancestry and genealogy; and discrimination and bigotry, on any account, is crime against humanity. These social evils should be confronted and resisted. Period.

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## Nilu Pule

RIWWIR said:


> My dear sir: I don't enter into useless and futile historical and sociological discussions, as far as the fundamental rights of a person are concerned. To me, all the human beings are fundamentally equal; a person belongs to the land/state, where he is born or naturalized, irrespective of his ancestry and genealogy; and discrimination and bigotry, on any account, is crime against humanity. These social evils should be confronted and resisted. Period.


Noted.
Don't call me Sir. I am no knight. And much younger than you.

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## SIPRA

Nilu Pule said:


> Noted.
> Don't call me Sir. I am no knight. And much younger than you.



Noted.


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## Sine Nomine

M. Sarmad said:


> That's quite possible.
> 
> But the point is that as the overlapping of gotras among the Punjabi Jats, Gujjars, Rajputs, Ahirs etc. is quite common, the overlapping of gotras of Chuhras with the gotras of other Punjabi castes _indicates_ that they too are indigenous to this land and they have been living in the same area along with other castes of the area for a _long_ time.


Over lapping is between Rajputs and Jats,over time many stand alone tribes like Khokhars and Kamboh have been started to be identified with these Clans.

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## M. Sarmad

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Over lapping is between Rajputs and Jats,over time many stand alone tribes like Khokhars and Kamboh have been started to be identified with these Clans.



Rajputs, Awans, Jats, and Arains, have all 'Khokhar' branch. Kambohs claim Rajput descent but they are very closely related to Arains. Bhatti, Chauhan, Tomar, Panwar, Solanki etc. are common clan names among Gujjars, Rajputs and Jats etc.


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## Sine Nomine

M. Sarmad said:


> Rajputs, Awans, Jats, and Arains, have all 'Khokhar' branch. Kambohs claim Rajput descent but they are very closely related to Arains. Bhatti, Chauhan, Tomar, Panwar, Solanki etc. are common clan names among Gujjars, Rajputs and Jats etc.


Lot of things on Pakistani sides have been mixed with each other.Titles of past have taken shape of casts.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> Yes they are. Literally everyone other than Indian nationalists accept this, the evidence is overwhelming.


Maybe in your dreams. There are no 'overwhelming' evidence. But a lot of abrasions. People haven't even figured out completely how IVC began or ended. So many theories, no conclusive proof. Overwhelming evidence are edicts, like I said, bring me one. Not some unilateral dream of Prof. XYZ.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> Maybe in your dreams. There are no 'overwhelming' evidence.



Lmao, you've literally just ignored over 100 years of scholarly consensus.

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## B.K.N

Vikki said:


> these light skinned people came later



From where did they came from

Ancestors of these people most likely belonged to lowest Hindu caste called shodar 
Some of them converted to Islam and some became Christians 
those who converted to Islam are called mussali and some deendar
The word chura which members here are using for them is considered a derrogatory term for them

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> Lmao, you've literally just ignored over 100 years of scholarly consensus.


haha you bring only guns no bullets. You couldn't even make sense when you said, Dharmic religions. In your mind it's only Hinduism, but totally ignoring Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism. Nope they are not Indo Aryans. Rather there are no Indo-Aryans, from the beginning. By the time the IVC expired, the mix already happened between the people of the land and the people who migrated (Because there is no evidence anywhere for an invasion that happened). 

Do you even know the Kambojas, Gandharis etc... were not the so called Aryan despite being the so called Indo-Aryans? They were called Yavanas. Why? Because first they don't follow vedic traditions. This whole Aryan thing was not at all based on race, because race, it is Black, White, Brown, yellow where white dominate, was a British theory. It holds no water in the vedic tradition. 

All they do are compare relatively sounding names say, Indra a vedic deity with antra a Germanic deity, totally ignoring the fact that Indra was also called Satpati, Avasyu and many more. Why would one have many names, because it depends on the forms he took. Not divulging further into all that. 

The Aryan which first finds it mention in Vedas, are a term used for Vedic group of people, this extended upto South India. By the way, these happened nearly 3000 years ago and the only evidence of it's existence are hymns. In short, the archaeological evidence of Indo Aryans is corroborated by an Oral tradition.

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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> but totally ignoring Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism.



They all derive from Hinduism, which came with the Aryans.



Chhatrapati said:


> there is no evidence anywhere for an invasion that happened







Chhatrapati said:


> All they do are compare relatively sounding names



It's not just that, the stories are remarkably similar to that of other Indo-European religions. The stories themselves were also originally in Sanskrit poetry. Sanskrit is an Indo-European language. Higher caste Hindus also have a larger portion of ancestry from Europe, and best of all, Hinduism itself literally emerges after the Indo-Aryans came about. There's no getting around this.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> They all derive from Hinduism, which came with the Aryans.


Still making claims. You failed to answer who are Aryans, I guess such things are difficult to comprehend for simpletons. 



Taimur Khurram said:


> It's not just that, the stories are remarkably similar to that of other Indo-European religions.


How do you expect the god of rain or Sun to have different stories.

Here's a story of Indra, his weapon called Vajra, it's made from the bones of a sage Dhadichi, inorder to kill Vritra who cannot be killed by any known weapon. I like to hear a similar story somewhere, given how important it is.

Or the trio gods, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. I'm looking for equivalent gods, find me one. 



Taimur Khurram said:


> Sanskrit is an Indo-European language. Higher caste Hindus also have a larger portion of ancestry from Europe, and best of all, Hinduism itself literally emerges after the Indo-Aryans came about. There's no getting around this.


Maybe it is, then again these are simply assumption, Sanskrit was a spoken language and it wasn't spoken outside this subcontinent. Only that there are similar sounding words that exist outside, which is like similar terracotta or swastika symbols from IVC that doesn't mean the High Germanic and IVC was same.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> Still making claims.



I'm only saying what is factual. If you knew anything about the topic we're discussing, you wouldn't be spouting such garbage. I strongly urge you to do more research. 























Chhatrapati said:


> You failed to answer who are Aryans



Indo-European migrants who came to the region. 



Chhatrapati said:


> I guess such things are difficult to comprehend



You're the one denying basic facts. 



Chhatrapati said:


> How do you expect the god of rain or Sun to have different stories



Oh it's much deeper than that lol. The fact that you think the similarities end here shows how little you know.



Chhatrapati said:


> Maybe it is



Not maybe, this is a fact. Sanskrit is an Indo-European language.

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## B.K.N

Chhatrapati said:


> who are Aryans,



Nomads from central Asia who came to South Asia for survival because there weren't enough resources to support there population in central Asia and were forced to migrate to South Asia

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## jamahir

Nilu Pule said:


> There are so similarities between upper caste Pakistani Punjabis and Indian Punjabis.
> 
> The former claims lower caste Punjabis are migrants from South India while the later calls them migrants from UP/Bihar.
> 
> Just wow!! These aboriginals of the land are being called "outsider' by descendants of outsiders.
> 
> @RIWWIR @SorryNotSorry @Vikki @Levina @jamahir



And there is the thing about northern tribal communities like Gonds.

But I don't see the point of this thread. ( @M. Sarmad ). We should be forward looking and not too much looking to the past.

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## B.K.N

jamahir said:


> But I don't see the point of this thread



My guess is 
By this thread he wants to show there are some people inferior to him and he belongs to upper caste

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> I'm only saying what is factual. If you knew anything about the topic we're discussing, you wouldn't be spouting such garbage. I strongly urge you to do more research.


I urge you to do the same. First figure out what Aryan actually mean, then come back to discuss the bullshit you spout here. I know very well what I'm talking about that's why you failed to even counter one argument I made with facts. Rather you stick to third party who says something and you take it as the only truth. 



Taimur Khurram said:


> Indo-European migrants who came to the region.


Not according to Vedas. As explained before when talking about Gandharis, or Kambojis who were not Aryan despite being from the same region. 



Taimur Khurram said:


> You're the one denying basic facts.


Try again to come with facts to discuss.



Taimur Khurram said:


> *Oh it's much deeper than that lol*. The fact that you think the similarities end here shows how little you know.


But you don't know what they are LOL! All you do is tell, not why and how.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> irst figure out what Aryan actually mean



Noble, but it is commonly used to refer to the Indo-Europeans who came to the part of the world that we regard as Indo-Iranian. 



Chhatrapati said:


> I know very well what I'm talking about that's why you failed to even counter one argument I made



You didn't make any argument, you just lied lol. I gave evidence, you have none. 



Chhatrapati said:


> But you don't know what they are



I gave sources discussing them you idiot.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> Noble, but it is commonly used to refer to the Indo-Europeans who came to the part of the world that we regard as Indo-Iranian.


Yeah, that's nice. But again predictable as many thinks it's Indo-European (hence white), contrary to what it really is. Usual white supremacy BS.



Taimur Khurram said:


> You didn't make any argument, you just lied lol. I gave evidence, you have none.


Even you couldn't prove that. 



Taimur Khurram said:


> I gave sources discussing them you idiot.


Like Sikhism and Buddhism are Indo European religion?  Cognitive disability shouldn't be mocked around, so I refrain from mocking you.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> white supremacy BS.



If you're going to just reject evidence as racism, then don't expect me to take you seriously. 



Chhatrapati said:


> Like Sikhism and Buddhism are Indo Aryan religion?



Of course they are. What else would they be? Iranic? Dravidian?

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> Noble


So, where is the race in it?



Taimur Khurram said:


> Of course they are. What else would they be? Iranic? Dravidian?


Indian.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> So, where is the race in it?



The fact that Indo-Europeans from the Iranian plateau and Indian sub-continent used it to refer to themselves. 



Chhatrapati said:


> Indian.





"Indian" only came to denote a nationality in recent times. Prior to that, it was a term used for Indo-Aryans.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> If you're going to just reject evidence as racism, then don't expect me to take you seriously.


The word used in Vedas have no race meaning to it. Any evidence you can provide to prove Arya in fact is a race according to Vedas?


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> The word used in Vedas have no race meaning to it. Any evidence you can provide to prove Arya in fact is a race according to Vedas?



You've rejected all evidence as racism, so no point in arguing further.


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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> "Indian" only came to denote a nationality in recent times. Prior to that, it was a term used for Indo-Aryans.


I said that in the Modern sense, Neither Sikhism or Buddhism have the concept of race. Neither did Vedas.



Taimur Khurram said:


> You've rejected any evidence as racism, so no point arguing further.


Clearly, you don't have any idea what you are talking about. I asked for specific verse that says Aryan as a race according to vedas. 

But you keep replying on how I feel about it. Bring me the evidence according to Vedas which called people Aryan because they are from a particular racial background. Given skin colour is the base of it all, prove that, a black guy wasn't called Aryan. While a swetha varna (white coloured) is called Aryan. 

Simple questions.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> I asked for specific verse that says Aryan as a race according to vedas.



That's not what I'm arguing about. You're shifting the topic to something else.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> The fact that Indo-Europeans from the Iranian plateau and Indian sub-continent used it to refer to themselves.


Vedas called them for people who followed Vedic traditions. Don't know about iranians.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> Vedas called them for people who followed Vedic traditions. Don't know about iranians.



That's the main problem, you don't know a lot about this topic. You don't know that Sansrkit is conclusively an Indo-European language, you don't know that Hinduism doesn't predate the Indo-European migrations, you don't know that Indo-European mythology is remarkably similar to Hindu mythology, etc.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

takeiteasy said:


> That's why *Pakistanis* & North Indians see Christians as low castes. Christianity is essentially a missionary religion in most of India. FYI, Syrian Christians, Goan, Mangalorean Konkani Christians are considered FC.



We don’t believe in Caste.

They tend to be on the lower economic ladder though as many of them are migrants from India. This is why they have dark skin color and foreign/Austronesian features like Indians.

Hindus and Sikhs regard them as lowly based on Caste. Although, honestly many look similar to them.

Muslims, although we detest pork and alcohol consumption of theirs, generally respect them and help them. There are many Islamic charity programs in Pakistan to uplift Christians.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> That's not what I'm arguing about. You're shifting the topic to something else.


I'm specifically on point, you said Aryans are Indo-European and they created Hinduism. Why can't you back it up with facts from Hinduism?


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> I'm specifically on point, you said Aryans are Indo-European and they created Hinduism. Why can't you back it up with facts from Hinduism?



I did, and you rejected it as racism.


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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> That's the main problem, you don't know a lot about this topic.


LOL! Picking on words now are you? 



Taimur Khurram said:


> You don't know that Sansrkit is conclusively an Indo-European language, you don't know that Hinduism doesn't predate the Indo-European migrations, you don't know that Indo-European mythology is remarkably similar to Hindu mythology, etc.


Neither did you came forward to prove that Sanskrit is in fact not originated in this land. Was it spoken outside this subcontinent? Where is the evidence for that? Did Iranians actually speak Sanskrit? Bring the evidence for that. 
Central Asians spoke Sanskrit? No evidence, nada. But as usual similar sounding words are the best bet. Are they any conclusive evidence? Nope. 

Does Hinduism predates Indo-European migration? maybe, maybe not. Because the evidence is based on an oral tradition and nobody has figured out the exact age of Rig Veda, some archeologists say it is 2800 BC to 3000 BCE. None of your arguments are conclusive, but assumptions.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> Neither did you came forward to prove that Sanskrit is in fact not originated in this land.



I did, but you rejected it as racism.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> I did, and you rejected it as racism.


No, I didn't. I simply said there is no concept of that in Vedas. Because this whole Aryan thing is based on Rig Veda which mentions Aryan as Noble and that is interpreted as Indo-European. Which Vedas doesn't specifically say. But such a condition was drawn based on assumptions. Which is why you can't explain a Big hole in that argument, it is Kambojas and Yavanas.

I know and moderately speak/understand Sanskrit. You can quote me any texts, I'll translate it for you if you wanna know.



Taimur Khurram said:


> I did, but you rejected it as racism.


Back to square one. "I did, I said".... No evidence.

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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> No, I didn't



Yes you did lol, do I need to remind you of quotes you made minutes ago?


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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> Yes you did lol, do I need to remind you of quotes you made minutes ago?


Go ahead.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> Go ahead.



Here it is



Chhatrapati said:


> Usual white supremacy BS.



With such a mindset, I don't see how you expect me to take you seriously.

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> With such a mindset, I don't see how you expect me to take you seriously.


You failed to prove me otherwise. Even failed at simple questions on who are Kambjoas and Gandharis. Whom according to you are Indo-European but according to Vedas are not Aryans.


Failed to produce any counter claims or arguments and revolves around Indo-European and Aryan invasion postulated by the Brits in 18th century.

Rather you ignore facts just pick words out and say "You are wrong" one liners. LOL!


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> You failed to prove me otherwise.



No, I gave you evidence, and you dismissed it. You've made yourself very clear, you don't want to accept the Indo-European migrations because it makes you feel racially insecure.


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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> No, I gave you evidence, and you dismissed it. You've made yourself very clear, you don't want to accept the Indo-European migrations because it makes you feel racially insecure.


Are Kambojas, Gandharis, or yavanas Aryans and Indo-European?


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> Are Kambojas, Gandharis, or yavanas Aryans and Indo-European?



First prove to me that you are willing to have a proper discussion by viewing the videos I sent you, and not dismiss them as just part of a white supremacist conspiracy.


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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> First prove to me that you are willing to have a proper discussion by viewing the videos I sent you, and not dismiss them as just part of a white supremacist conspiracy.


LOL! Why evade this simple question?  It is simply a yes or no question.


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## M. Sarmad

jamahir said:


> And there is the thing about northern tribal communities like Gonds.
> 
> But I don't see the point of this thread. ( @M. Sarmad ). We should be forward looking and not too much looking to the past.



An academic exercise meant to set readers think about how and why an already marginalised community became further alienated in Pakistan. Did you bother to read the OP and my subsequent posts?




Brass Knuckles said:


> My guess is
> By this thread he wants to show there are some people inferior to him and he belongs to upper caste



Nah bro, I am not an Arab to believe that people belonging to other religions or communities are inferior. I, for one, believe that a patriotic Pakistani Christian is much better and superior to a Pakistani Muslim whose allegiance and loyalties lie outside Pakistan. Go figure


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## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> Jats



Jat is used in meaning of kisan or peasant
no big land owner would call himself jat
but those who work in his lands would be called jat


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## M. Sarmad

Brass Knuckles said:


> Jat is used in meaning of kisan or peasant
> no big land owner would call himself jat
> but those who work in his lands would be called jat



May be in your country. But in Pakistani Punjab Jats are proud land owners


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## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> May be in your country. But in Pakistani Punjab Jats are proud land owners



People use there qoum like sial bhatti etc 
There are different titles of these qoums or tribes like
Mahr M.Sarmad Sial or Rai M.Sarmad Bhatti
No one calls himself rajput or jat etc don't know what is rajput but jat means kisan
And I am from Pakistan

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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> LOL! Why evade this simple question?  It is simply a yes or no question.



Because you're not listening to what I'm saying. Prove that you will by listening to what has already been written. Otherwise, this conversation is over.


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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> Because you're not listening to what I'm saying. Prove that you will by listening to what has already been written. Otherwise, this conversation is over.


I did listen to what you said, but should I not ask questions to you? You said you are well versed in the topic about Aryans, I watched the videos you mentioned and asked few questions. But you keep telling me they are Indo-Aryans, where is the discussion in this? lol is it that, I should accept whatever you blabber?

Neither of those videos explained anything about Gandhara, or Kashmira etc... that is why I asked you, are they Aryans and Indo-European? You keep evading that question. Even now, you don't have an answer.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Chhatrapati said:


> I did listen to what you said, but should I not ask questions to you? You said you are well versed in the topic about Aryans, I watched the videos you mentioned and asked few questions. But you keep telling me they are Indo-Aryans, where is the discussion in this? lol is it that, I should accept whatever you blabber?
> 
> Neither of those videos explained anything about Gandhara, or Kashmira etc... that is why I asked you, are they Aryans and Indo-European? You keep evading that question. Even now, you don't have an answer.


Why does ur airforce hid behind commercial airline?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Chhatrapati said:


> Why did you surrender half of your country to an Indian General?


So that's ur excuse?


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## Chhatrapati

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So that's ur excuse?


No, that's an irrelevant question I asked back at you.


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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> I watched the videos



Then why are you not convinced? I don't see how your premises (assuming they're true) disprove the theory. The Indo-Europeans came in waves, and there would have been infighting between them. Many say that the Dasyu were another branch of Indo-Europeans.



Chhatrapati said:


> Why did you surrender half of your country to an Indian General?



Why did Muslims rule over you for one thousand years?

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> Then why are you not convinced? I don't see how your premises (assuming they're true) disprove the theory. The Indo-Europeans came in waves, and there would have been infighting between them. Many say that the Dasyu were another branch of Indo-Europeans.


I have read far better theories than those videos which always go zig-zag over identifying Aryans. This one is no different. I'm not interested in explaining the videos word by word. But you get gist.

If Indo-Aryan came in by waves, why there are no historical accounts of it? At least not in the Vedas which is the only reliable source at that time.

You are also wrong when calling Dasyu as a branch in Indo Aryans, Dasyu or Dasa were used to describe great people as well as barbarians. Dasa just means servant in general sense.



Taimur Khurram said:


> Why did Muslims rule over you for one thousand years?


Did they? Nope, never have a Muslim ruler set foot in where I live. But let's not expand scope of discussion, I answered to an irrelevant question asked to bait. I replied it in the same manner.

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## jamahir

M. Sarmad said:


> An academic exercise meant to set readers think about how and why an already marginalised community became further alienated in Pakistan. Did you bother to read the OP and my subsequent posts?



You are correct, I didn't read the entire OP or your subsequent posts.

Tell me, am I correct to presume that the Chuhras are still a marginalised community ??


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## M. Sarmad

jamahir said:


> Tell me, am I correct to presume that the Chuhras are still a marginalised community ??



Unfortunately, they are ...


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## niaz

Brass Knuckles said:


> From where did they came from
> 
> Ancestors of these people most likely belonged to lowest Hindu caste called shodar
> Some of them converted to Islam and some became Christians
> those who converted to Islam are called mussali and some deendar
> The word chura which members here are using for them is considered a derrogatory term for them



You are correct Sir,

I was very young at the time of partition but I understand that a lot of low caste Hindus & Sikhs also converted at the time of partition to save their lives and avoid the looting of what little property they had. The converted Muslims were called Massali and those who converted to Christianity were called Chuhra or Karanta.

Even though Islam was meant to eliminate the caste system; prejudice against the poor (kammi) & the low caste is so much ingrained among the people of the sub-continent that these people; at least up to the 1970s when I was residing in Pakistan; were looked down upon. Sad but true.

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## jamahir

M. Sarmad said:


> Unfortunately, they are ...



Then they require a state-sponsored positive discrimination system to give them better opportunities in life.

In recent decades in India the Mandal Commission was able to achieve some good things for the Dalits by a system called here as Reservation. But the social structure in India is still regressive and there still are incidents like Dalit school students being punished for touching the plates "reserved" for upper caste students during the mid-day meals.

And if you can, please study the tragic case of Rohith Vemula.

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## SIPRA

M. Sarmad said:


> Unfortunately, they are ...



Don't you think that it is far beyond that and it is not limited only to the "Churhas" and like. A large part of our society still considers "Kammi" (Worker), a "Kameen" (Low Life), and this compound phrase " Kammi Kameen" is very commonly used, to represent these unfortunate people.


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## M. Sarmad

niaz said:


> I understand that a lot of low caste Hindus & Sikhs also *converted at the time of partition* to save their lives and avoid the looting of what little property they had. The converted Muslims were called Massali and those who converted to Christianity were called Chuhra or Karanta.



With all due respect, sir, what you are stating is incorrect. The _Chuhras_ had converted to Christianity long before partition. And '_Deendars'_ were not the low caste _Chuhra_ converts only . Please read through this thread
Regards



RIWWIR said:


> Don't you think that it is far beyond that and it is not limited only to the "Churhas" and like. A large part of our society still considers "Kammi" (Worker), a "Kameen" (Low Life), and this compound phrase " Kammi Kameen" is very commonly used, to represent these unfortunate people.



You are right.. This discrimination is not limited to _Chuhras_ only, but the scale and magnitude of the suffering of _Chuhras_ in Punjab is not comparable to that of others ..


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## SIPRA

M. Sarmad said:


> You are right.. This discrimination is not limited to _Chuhras_ only, but the scale and magnitude of the suffering of _Chuhras_ in Punjab is not comparable to that of others (i.e Non Muslim _Kammis_)



Agree.


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## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> You are right.. This discrimination is not limited to _Chuhras_ only, but the scale and magnitude of the suffering of _Chuhras_ in Punjab is not comparable to that of others ..



Sir ji I think this descrimination has more to do with their profession than ancestry
as a lot of them work as sweepers and this profession is considered low
the word chuhra which you are using I think it's a derogatry term 
If you call chuhra to a mussali he would not like it



niaz said:


> I was very young at the time of partition



Sir how old are you


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## niaz

Brass Knuckles said:


> Sir ji I think this descrimination has more to do with their profession than ancestry
> as a lot of them work as sweepers and this profession is considered low
> the word chuhra which you are using I think it's a derogatry term
> If you call chuhra to a mussali he would not like it
> 
> 
> 
> Sir how old are you



I was born in 1943

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## B.K.N

niaz said:


> I was born in 1943



76 years old 
I was born in 1997


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## M. Sarmad

Brass Knuckles said:


> the word chuhra which you are using I think it's a derogatry term
> If you call chuhra to a mussali he would not like it



_Chuhra_ is a caste name that has been recorded as such in the official documents of British India. The first regular census of British India was carried out in 1881 and Denzil Ibbetson has recorded that _Chuhras_ prefer to be called 'Chuhras' as they consider other names for their castes such as 'Bhangi' to be derogatory.

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## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> _Chuhra_ is a caste name that has been recorded as such in the official documents of British India. The first regular census of British India carried out in 1881 and Denzil Ibbetson has recorded that Chuhras prefer to be called Chuhras as they consider other names for their castes such as 'Bhangi' to be derogatory.



But here if I call a mussali a chuhra he would feel offended
In childhood days in fight with a mussali boy he said to me 
Apni aukat main raho ham musali Hain chohray nhi

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## SIPRA

Brass Knuckles said:


> Sir ji I think this descrimination has more to do with their profession than ancestry
> as a lot of them work as sweepers and this profession is considered low
> the word chuhra which you are using I think it's a derogatry term
> If you call chuhra to a mussali he would not like it



In an iconic book, entitled "Dabastan e Mazahib", which was written by an Indian Parsi, in about 1650, and which documents all the religions of India, in an impartial manner, "Churha" is mentioned as one of lowest castes of Hinduism, who are associated with the janitorial profession. Their dietary norms include killing and eating virtually all types of animals.

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## M. Sarmad

Brass Knuckles said:


> But here if I call a mussali a chuhra he would feel offended
> In childhood days in fight with a mussali boy he said to me
> Apni aukat main raho ham musali Hain chohray nhi





_Almost all the Chuhras west of Lahore are Musalmans, and they are very commonly called Musalli or Kutana, the two terms being apparently- almost synonymous, but Kutana being chiefly used in the south- west and Musalli in the north-west. In Sirsa the converted Chuhra Is called Dindar or faithful as a term of respect, or Khojab, a euimch, in satirical allusion to his circumcision, or, as sometimes interpreted, Khoja, one who has found salvation. But it appears that in many parts *The Musalman Chuhra continues to be called Chuhra so long as he eats carrion or removes night-soil, and is only promoted to the title of Musalli on his relinquishing those habits, the Musalli being considered distinctly a higher class than the Chuhra.* On the other hand the Musalli of the frontier towns does remove night-soil. On the Peshawar frontier the Musalli Is the grave-digger as well as the sweeper, and is said to be some times called Shahi Khel, though this latter title would seem to be more generally used for Chuhras who have settled on the upper Indus and taken to working in grass and reeds ....
_
(p. 319, _Panjab Census Report_, 17 Feb 1881 by Denzil Ibbetson, published 1883)

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## Crusher

Brass Knuckles said:


> People use there qoum like sial bhatti etc
> There are different titles of these qoums or tribes like
> Mahr M.Sarmad Sial or Rai M.Sarmad Bhatti
> No one calls himself rajput or jat etc don't know what is rajput but jat means kisan
> And I am from Pakistan



Both jat and rajput were originally non-punjabi titles which got associated with the local farmer and small ruling clans over the time due to non-punjabi non-local influences. The word "jat" was first mentioned in arab chronicles of Sindh invasions in 8th century, the word "rajput" originated in what is now Rajasthan of india. How these two non-punjabi titles landed in modern punjab and got integrated with various local castes/clans in punjab is really a mystery. But I have noticed that these Jat/Rajput titles have more of an eastern punjab origin rather than a western punjab origin in historical sense. Historical discourse is a funny phenomenon where various titles of non-local origins get associated with the local clans over the time, for example "khan" is originally a mongolian/turkic title but it is also freely used by many clans as a symbol of respect, same applies to "malik" which is originally an "arabic" title for landlords/military commanders/noble men etc but in punjab it got associated with big landlords of south punjab for example or in erstwhile FATA with the clan head chiefs who were all called "Malik".



RIWWIR said:


> Don't you think that it is far beyond that and it is not limited only to the "Churhas" and like. A large part of our society still considers "Kammi" (Worker), a "Kameen" (Low Life), and this compound phrase " Kammi Kameen" is very commonly used, to represent these unfortunate people.



There has indeed been a bias towards people who actually worked with hands in punjab society, for example useful craftsment like carpenters, lohars, potters, weavers, water carriers, peasants etc. were all called "kammi" because they had to work really hard to make their ends meet. But a landlord chaudhry sahab or malik sahab who only used to sit on his charpai with huqqa and had peasants working on his fields was the noble man.

This mindset still persists among pakistanis that is why we are "unfit" to run a modern economy where everyone is supposed to "work" and not "sit" on his bed or chair with a sense of entitlement while smoking cigarettes day in and day out. All the successful economies in the world like USA, Germany, Japan etc. are economically strong because they "honor" the dignity of work and the worker, work is kind of "god" for them so one who works is the noble man for them and not the one who sits on his bed or chair all day along with the sense of "entitlement" because he owns a big chunk of land.

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## SIPRA

Simurgh said:


> There has indeed been a bias towards people who actually worked with hands in punjab society, for example useful craftsment like carpenters, lohars, potters, weavers, water carriers, peasants etc. were all called "kammi" because they had to work really hard to make there ends meet. But a landlord chaudhry sahab or malik sahab who only used to sit on his charpai with huqqa and had peasants working on his fields was the noble man.
> 
> This mindset still persists among pakistanis that is why we are "unfit" to run a modern economy where everyone is supposed to "work" and not "sit" on his bed or chair while smoking cigarettes day in and day out. All the successful economies in the world like USA, Germany, Japan etc. are economically strong because they "honor" the dignity of work and the worker, work is kind of "god" for them so one who works is the noble man for them and not the one who sits on his bed or chair all day along because he owns a big chunk of land.



Well said.

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## Rusty

@Taimur Khurram 
You sir are amazing. I have never seen such a beautiful take down of a science denying hindutva scum as you just showed. 

Hindutva hateful ideology is based on "Hinduism is indigenous" 
The whole world knows that Hinduism came from the Indo-European invaders and so destroys Hindutva hateful ideology. 

These Hindutva scum don't believe in science, remember how they brought up "vedic science" at an actual science conference?

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## B.K.N

Simurgh said:


> titles



Every qaum or tribe uses there own title
like here in my area sials and braches of sial like bharwana sargana chuchkana and a lot of other tribes use mahr as title bhattis use Rai as title this title thing is similar to balochs like bugtis and marris use Mir as title



Simurgh said:


> weavers



People usually make fun of Weavers they are called pawli 
and there are a lot of punjabi jokes on them but don't know why

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## M. Sarmad

Simurgh said:


> There has indeed been a bias towards people who actually worked with hands in punjab society, for example useful craftsment like carpenters, lohars, potters, weavers, water carriers, peasants etc. were all called "kammi" because they had to work really hard to make their ends meet. But a landlord chaudhry sahab or malik sahab who only used to sit on his charpai with huqqa and had peasants working on his fields was the noble man.
> 
> This mindset still persists among pakistanis that is why we are "unfit" to run a modern economy where everyone is supposed to "work" and not "sit" on his bed or chair with a sense of entitlement while smoking cigarettes day in and day out. All the successful economies in the world like USA, Germany, Japan etc. are economically strong because they "honor" the dignity of work and the worker, work is kind of "god" for them so one who works is the noble man for them and not the one who sits on his bed or chair all day along with the sense of "entitlement" because he owns a big chunk of land.



This _bias_ in Punjab society has more to do with the 3500 years long influence of the Vedic Varna (class/caste) System that categorized certain professions and people as 'impure' and 'polluted'. 'Working with one's hands' or 'hard work' itself was not looked down upon as the _Jats_ of Punjab (with their women and children alike) had been historically engaged in _manual_ agriculture; a very challenging task physically. Only the big landlords (they were far and few between) who were too proud to cultivate with their own hands used to employ Barwalas, Chamars, Chuhras etc. as ploughmen and field laborers.

The laborers (or Shudras) were not included in the _Varna_ System originally and after a millennia-long segregation they were finally allowed into the folds of Hindu society (partly because of the mixing of Foreigner 'higher' class with the local 'lower' class over centuries) as the Fourth Varna, at the foot of the social ladder which they of course were not allowed to 'climb'. But the pure aboriginal communities were never accepted in the society, they remained 'outcasts' and eventually became the Fifth class; the Dalits or untouchables.

The landless and poverty-stricken vagrant, menial and artisan castes fell within the 4th and 5th classes. In the Muslim dominated western parts of the Punjab, the discrimination against _Shudras_ was significantly less compared to the eastern parts (and the rest of Hindu dominated India). However, the lowest of the low, i.e. Dalits, were not accepted into the folds of the society even in the Muslim dominated areas. They were caused to be segregated and will continue to be caused to remain segregated by us until and unless we completely remove the unwholesome influence of the Vedic Varna System from our society.

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## Crusher

Brass Knuckles said:


> *People usually make fun of Weavers they are called pawli
> and there are a lot of punjabi jokes on them but don't know why*



There is a reason behind it, many people in pakistani punjab don't know but both "mochi" (shoe maker) and "julaha" (weaver) were the relatively "clean professions" adopted mainly by people who were originally leather workers "chammars". The bias against "julaha" weavers in punjab is due to their predominantly "chammar" origins just like mochis.

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## M. Sarmad

Simurgh said:


> There is a reason behind it, many people in pakistani punjab don't know but both "mochi" (shoe maker) and "julaha" (weaver) were the relatively "clean professions" adopted mainly by people who were originally leather workers "chammars". The bias against "julaha" weavers in punjab is due to their predominantly "chammar" origins just like mochis.



The theory that _Chamars_ and _Julahas_ are probably the same by origin was first propounded by James Wilson, the Secretary to the Board of Control (the chief official in London responsible for Indian affairs) from 1848-1852. However, the 1881 Panjab Census report, while endorsing Wilson's theory, does concede that _Julahas_ were recognized by both Hindus and Muslims as fellow believers and admitted to religious equality. Hindus treating _Julahas_ as equals in religion (in a Varna-based society) does raise serious doubts about the _Chamar/Scavanger_ origins of _Julahas_.

Denzil Ibbetson further writes: "_we find Koli-Julahas, Chamar-Julahas, Mochi-Julahas, Ramdasi-Julahas, and so forth ; and it is probable that after a few generations these men drop the prefix which denotes their low origin, and become Julahas pure and simple." _(he has completely ignored the possibility that some among those mentioned castes might have adopted _weaving_ as their profession)... The Brirish accounts seem to be a little biased against _Julahas_. ... The British had described _Julahas_ as _'one of the most turbulent classes of the community'_. And it was quite common for the Britishers to show in a bad light those castes they deemed 'unfriendly'. Interestingly, Denzil Ibbetson claimed that the rulers of Bahawalpur were purely an indigenous tribe whose founder Daud Khan was a _Julaha_ or weaver by profession. (This view is endorsed by other orientalists like J D Cunningham and James Tod as well). 

From the late 19th century onward (ever since they were _officially_ identified as a low caste), _Julahas _had been struggling to gain social and political recognition. As the first step, they rejected the nomenclature of _Julaha_ altogether and started identifying themselves as 'Ansari' and 'Momin'. They founded a political party (All India Momin Conference) in 1911 to articulate the interests of the _Ansari_ community. The All India Momin Conference became a platform for lower-caste Muslims (particularly Julahas) and mounted a serious challenge to the Muslim League’s attempt to speak on behalf of the high-class Indian Muslims. In 1940, they went as far as passing a resolution in Patna that opposed the partition of India.

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## Crusher

M. Sarmad said:


> *Denzil Ibbetson further writes: we find Koli-Julahas, Chamar-Julahas, Mochi-Julahas, Ramdasi-Julahas, and so forth ; and it is probable that after a few generations these men drop the prefix which denotes their low origin, and become Julahas pure and simple. *The Brirish accounts seem to be a little biased against_......................................._




There is nothing wrong if a signficant number of julahas of punjab are descended from chammar communities of punjab. Even the Ranjeet Singh the sikh maharaja of punjab in 19th century also belonged to "Sansi" community which was also a branch of chammars. That is another thing that Ranjeet Singh Sansi family marrried heavily among jatts and made alliances with them and their later descendants identified more with jatts than their oiriginal sansi community.


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## M. Sarmad

Simurgh said:


> There is nothing wrong if a signficant number of julahas of punjab are descended from chammar communities of punjab. Even the Ranjeet Singh's the king of punjab in 19th century also belonged to "Sansi" community which was also a branch of chammars. That is another thing that Ranjeet Singh Sansi family marrried heavily among jatts and made alliances with them and their later descendants identified more with jatts than their oiriginal sansi community.



Of course, there is nothing wrong with being Julaha or Chamar or Chuhra. My point is, the British accounts regarding the origins of _Julaha_ caste are not entirely trustworthy. 

As for Ranjit Singh being Chamar, that is debatable. But that's not the topic here. 
However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with him being Sansi. (_Sansis_ are not _Chamar_ b/w)


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## Jaanbaz

Kind of sad they converted to Christianity thinking they would become equal to the white man instead end up getting all Christians in Pakistan being labelled as churas. Mind you Karachi's Christian population is far more educated and generally wealthier then Christians in Punjab. The caste system is alive and well in Punjab despite what people may claim, is it not true even now in rural Punjab Jatts vote for jatts, Rajputs for rajputs?

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## takeiteasy

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Hindus and Sikhs regard them as lowly based on Caste. Although, honestly many look similar to them.


Yes. Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs of northern India look around and see that the low castes are the converts to Christianity. Thus, in their minds they occupy Christianity to low castes. This was a new knowledge for me, when I lived with northern Indians during my Engg days. They know only either elite Anglo-Protestants or Goan Catholics and most of the "others" are native tribals converted to Christianity. That's why, I remember a Pakistani member here few years back tried to call Christians as Choor-Chamars, since his exposure to Christians in South Asia is limited to low caste/tribal converts. I did not understood this then, since I'm from Kerala.


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## Kabira

They came from gangetic plains for sure. They are found all over. In KP apparently they go by name of shah khel or something and speak pashto.

Their ancestors went from village to village looking to do jobs no one else would do.

My guess for their origin? They came from gangetic plains and are mostly found in northen indus region from Kashmir to punjab. Much more in punjab plains then in mountains. Hardly any in Sindh and Balochistan, not counting recent migrants. This mean they are not south indian in origin but from north indian gangetic plains. Though sindh and balochistan not so ideal agricultural economy in older days was likely main reason not many went there.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> lso, there is nothing _'Southern'_ about the names of their gotras: Sahotra, Gill, Bhatti, Khokhar, Mattu, Kharu, Kaliyana, Ladhar, Sindhu, Chhapriband, Unthwal, Hansi, Dhariwal etc.


They are known for adopting the surnames of their Zamindars or their ancestral area (none of which are in Pakistan).

Dhariwal were originally migrants from Dhari in Gujarat
Sindhu is most common in South India
Chapriband is a Rajasthani surname
Unthwal were camel traders from Rajasthan
Hansi gotra are from Hansi in Central India
Kaliyana were sandstone miners caste from Bhiwani in Central India

*Adopted from Zamindars:*
Sahotra is a Central Punjabi Jatt clan
Bhatti is a Jatt-Rajput clan
Khokhar is a Potohari clan
Mattu is a Kashmiri clan
Ladhar is a mostly Sikh clan of East Punjab
Kharu is a Kashmiri clan

*----------------
*
I am very surprised that a Punjabi as you, who seems to be very defensive about the Punjabi identity and is sometimes sensitive on Punjab-related topics do not know basic things like these...

These people today are Pakistani and I will never consider them lower. Being native or not, does not make you any less Pakistani. However, as someone who is well-learned in our heritage, I will always resist perversions of history; claiming that these people were the original inhabitants of Punjab is misleading and grossly inaccurate. 

Also, I do not wish to come off as confrontational, I believe that we are both brothers and have much to learn from each other.



Taimur Khurram said:


> Most Muslims in Pakistan either claim foreign descent or come from groups you'd consider low. But there is a sizeable minority of higher caste folk (mainly Rajputs).


Please do tell me what groups is it that most Pakistanis come from that would be considered "low" by Indians. 
The largest tribes of Punjab are Jatts, Rajputs, Sheikhs, Arains and Awans; which of these tribes would be considered 'low'. They are mostly non-existent (except for Rajputs) in India out of Greater Punjab and were designated as Martial Races by the British.

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## M. Sarmad

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> *----------------
> 
> I am very surprised* that a Punjabi as you, who seems to be very defensive about the Punjabi identity and is sometimes sensitive on Punjab-related topics do not know basic things like these...



But I am not at all surprised ... Someone who believes that _Chuhras_ are South Indians can claim anything of course.. Re-check your facts (or you want me to do that for you?).. and then post here ...

Also read through the previous posts to learn a few things about Punjab's lower castes


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## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> (Muslim Chamars) and 5,028 _Chamrangs_ and we are talking about almost 15% of the total population of Punjab here.
> 
> You seriously believe they are South Indian immigrants in Punjab?? It is probable that they are essentially of aboriginal origin.





M. Sarmad said:


> And Chuhras may look out of place in Gujranwala/Sialkot areas, but at the time of partition, they (excluding Musallis) made up 9.56% of the total population of Gujranwala Tehsil, 8.67% of Daska Tehsil, 9.12% of Sheikhupura Tehsil, 8.09% of Shahdara Tehsil, 7.23% of Narowal Tehsil, 6.20% of Sialkot Tehsil, and 6.84% of Gurdaspur Tehsil. These numbers are simply too large to ignore.


The same people make up 45% of Trinidad, 40% of Guyana, 30% of Suriname, etc... does that make them native to any of these nations?



M. Sarmad said:


> They refused to give up their aboriginal beliefs and dietary habits, and that's why they had become 'outcasts' in the first place. Leave aside your bias and try to think rationally.


Could you kindly elaborate on the dietary habits and aboriginal beliefs?



M. Sarmad said:


> The fact that they were the fourth largest caste in British Punjab undermines the migration theory.


British Punjab was massive. Majority of the Chuhras are found in India, which further supports a Westward migration. 









jamahir said:


> Tell me, am I correct to presume that the Chuhras are still a marginalised community ??


Unfortunately yes, but I have seen a trend where many are breaking out of that bubble. One of my teachers was a Chuhra Christian, great guy.

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## M. Sarmad

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> They are known for adopting the surnames of their Zamindars or their ancestral area (none of which are in Pakistan).
> 
> Dhariwal were originally migrants from Dhari in Gujarat
> Sindhu is most common in South India
> Chapriband is a Rajasthani surname
> Unthwal were camel traders from Rajasthan
> Hansi gotra are from Hansi in Central India
> Kaliyana were sandstone miners caste from Bhiwani in Central India



*Dhariwal *is a Punjabi Jat clan (or Rajput as per some sources) found chiefly in Ludhiana, Firozpur, and Patiala
*Sindhu* is the second largest Punjabi Jat clan whose origin probably is Satrah, Sialkot
*Unthwal* simply are camel-men and a lot of them live in and around Thal, Punjab also
*Hansi* is a city in Hisar, Punjab (now Haryana)
*Mattu* is a sub-clan of Jats



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> British Punjab was massive. Majority of the Chuhras are found in India, which further supports a Westward migration.



The Majority of _Chuhras/Christians_ were NOT found on the Indian side of Punjab. Indian Punjab's Christian population was not even one-fourth of the Pakistani Punjab's Christian population at the time of partition .

Even as per the 1881 Census, when no _Chuhra _had converted to Christianity, almost two-thirds of the total population of _Chuhras_ lived in the parts of Punjab that are now in Pakistan. 

Do not make up your own facts and figures, bro


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## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> This _bias_ in Punjab society has more to do with the 3500 years long influence of the Vedic Varna (class/caste) System that categorized certain professions and people as 'impure' and 'polluted'. 'Working with one's hands' or 'hard work' itself was not looked down upon as the _Jats_ of Punjab (with their women and children alike) had been historically engaged in _manual_ agriculture; a very challenging task physically. Only the big landlords (they were far and few between) who were too proud to cultivate with their own hands used to employ Barwalas, Chamars, Chuhras etc. as ploughmen and field laborers.
> 
> The laborers (or Shudras) were not included in the _Varna_ System originally and after a millennia-long segregation they were finally allowed into the folds of Hindu society (partly because of the mixing of Foreigner 'higher' class with the local 'lower' class over centuries) as the Fourth Varna, at the foot of the social ladder which they of course were not allowed to 'climb'. But the pure aboriginal communities were never accepted in the society, they remained 'outcasts' and eventually became the Fifth class; the Dalits or untouchables.
> 
> The landless and poverty-stricken vagrant, menial and artisan castes fell within the 4th and 5th classes. In the Muslim dominated western parts of the Punjab, the discrimination against _Shudras_ was significantly less compared to the eastern parts (and the rest of Hindu dominated India). However, the lowest of the low, i.e. Dalits, were not accepted into the folds of the society even in the Muslim dominated areas. They were caused to be segregated and will continue to be caused to remain segregated by us until and unless we completely remove the unwholesome influence of the Vedic Varna System from our society.


This is quite inaccurate; the original (excludes Mandalas 1 & 10) Rigveda composed in Sapta Sindhu (Punjab) never mentioned a caste system. They were culturally and religiously were very contrasting and even contradicting to the post-Vedic religions that sprouted in the Gangetic Plains and later became Hinduism.

Our social structure is still very much parallel to the Vedic tribal system which is now known as the Biradari system; which has no clear hierarchy. The concept of the caste system is foreign and has only been relevantly introduced to us recently under the Mughals and British. Even the word 'caste' which we mistakenly use to refer to our tribes was introduced to us by the British.

Our pre-Islamic ancestors ate meat, buried their dead, elected their chiefs, rejected the caste system and followed other practices/traditions that were seen as taboo by Gangetic Indians.

This is clearly seen in the Mahabharata (composed in the Gangetic Plains) which refer to our ancestors as Bahlika/Vahika (meaning outsider), followers of Nastadharam (meaning destroyed religion) and berates our ancestors for not following the Caste system and other Gangetic traditions.

_“Where these five rivers, Shatadru, Vipasha, the third Iravati, Chandrabhaga and Vitasta flow and where there are Pilu-forests and (where) Sindhu is the sixth to flow out, this country is called Aratta…”_

_“that (region) where these five rivers, emerging from the mountains flow, this Aratta (country) is called Balhika where the Arya should not stay even for two days”._

_"The regions are called by the name of Arattas. The people residing there are called the Vahikas. (VIII.30.47) The lowest of brahmanas also are residing there from very remote times. They are without the Veda and without knowledge, without sacrifice and without the power to assist at other's sacrifices. They are all fallen and many amongst them have been begotten by Shudras upon other peoples' girls. The gods never accept any gifts from them. The Prasthalas, the Madras, the Gandharas, the Arattas, those called Khasas, the Vasatis, the Sindhus and the Sauviras are almost as blamable in their practices.'" (VIII.30.74)"_

^ This verse names all of the major ethnic groups/tribes of the Indus region at that time. Madras were people of North Punjab, Gandharas were a people of (modern-day) KPK, parts of Afghanistan and parts of West Punjab, Arattas was an umbrella term for all of them, Sindhus were a people that inhabited Sindh and South Punjab, Sauviras were a people that lived to the East of Sindh, most likely Thar region of Sindh and parts of Rajasthan, Khasas were in modern-day Kashmir, and we don't know much about the Vasatis.

A Brahmin that visited the people of the five rivers (Vahikas) describes their social structure.

_"Travelling through various countries following various religions, I at last, O king, came among the Vahikas. There I heard one at first becomes a Brahmana and then he comes a Kshatriya. Indeed, a Vahika would, after that become a Vaisya, and then a Sudra, and then a barber. Having become a barber, he would then again become a Brahmana. Returning to the status of a Brahmana, he would again become a slave. One person in a family becomes a Brahmana: all the others, falling off from virtue, act as they like. The Gandharas, the Madrakas, and the Vahiks of little understanding are even such."_

The Brahmin further goes on to describe their "lack of religion".

_"The sisters' sons of the Arattas, and not their own sons, become their heirs. The Kauravas with the Panchalas, the Salwas, the Matsyas, the Naimishas, the Koshalas, the Kasapaundras, the Kalingas, the Magadhas, and the Chedis who are all highly blassed, know what the eternal religion is. The wicked even of these various countries know what religion is. The Vahikas, however, live without righteousness. Begging with the Matsyas, the residents of the Kuru and the Panchala countries, the Naimishas as well and the other respectable peoples, the pious among all races are conversant with the eternal truths of religion. This cannot be said of the Madrakas and the *crooked-hearted race that resides in the country of the five rivers*. "
_
(Madrakas were a people of North Punjab, by modern-day Sialkot)

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## M. Sarmad

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> This is quite inaccurate; the original (excludes Mandalas 1 & 10) Rigveda composed in Sapta Sindhu (Punjab) never mentioned a caste system. They were culturally and religiously were very contrasting and even contradicting to the post-Vedic religions that sprouted in the Gangetic Plains and later became Hinduism.
> 
> Our social structure is still very much parallel to the Vedic tribal system which is now known as the Biradari system; which has no clear hierarchy. The concept of the caste system is foreign and has only been relevantly introduced to us recently under the Mughals and British. Even the word 'caste' which we mistakenly use to refer to our tribes was introduced to us by the British.
> 
> Our pre-Islamic ancestors ate meat, buried their dead, elected their chiefs, rejected the caste system and followed other practices/traditions that were seen as taboo by Gangetic Indians.
> 
> This is clearly seen in the Mahabharata (composed in the Gangetic Plains) which refer to our ancestors as Bahlika/Vahika (meaning outsider), followers of Nastadharam (meaning destroyed religion) and berates our ancestors for not following the Caste system and other Gangetic traditions.
> 
> _“Where these five rivers, Shatadru, Vipasha, the third Iravati, Chandrabhaga and Vitasta flow and where there are Pilu-forests and (where) Sindhu is the sixth to flow out, this country is called Aratta…”_
> 
> _“that (region) where these five rivers, emerging from the mountains flow, this Aratta (country) is called Balhika where the Arya should not stay even for two days”._
> 
> _"The regions are called by the name of Arattas. The people residing there are called the Vahikas. (VIII.30.47) The lowest of brahmanas also are residing there from very remote times. They are without the Veda and without knowledge, without sacrifice and without the power to assist at other's sacrifices. They are all fallen and many amongst them have been begotten by Shudras upon other peoples' girls. The gods never accept any gifts from them. The Prasthalas, the Madras, the Gandharas, the Arattas, those called Khasas, the Vasatis, the Sindhus and the Sauviras are almost as blamable in their practices.'" (VIII.30.74)"_
> 
> ^ This verse names all of the major ethnic groups/tribes of the Indus region at that time. Madras were people of North Punjab, Gandharas were a people of (modern-day) KPK, parts of Afghanistan and parts of West Punjab, Arattas was an umbrella term for all of them, Sindhus were a people that inhabited Sindh and South Punjab, Sauviras were a people that lived to the East of Sindh, most likely Thar region of Sindh and parts of Rajasthan, Khasas were in modern-day Kashmir, and we don't know much about the Vasatis.
> 
> A Brahmin that visited the people of the five rivers (Vahikas) describes their social structure.
> 
> _"Travelling through various countries following various religions, I at last, O king, came among the Vahikas. There I heard one at first becomes a Brahmana and then he comes a Kshatriya. Indeed, a Vahika would, after that become a Vaisya, and then a Sudra, and then a barber. Having become a barber, he would then again become a Brahmana. Returning to the status of a Brahmana, he would again become a slave. One person in a family becomes a Brahmana: all the others, falling off from virtue, act as they like. The Gandharas, the Madrakas, and the Vahiks of little understanding are even such."_
> 
> The Brahmin further goes on to describe their "lack of religion".
> 
> _"The sisters' sons of the Arattas, and not their own sons, become their heirs. The Kauravas with the Panchalas, the Salwas, the Matsyas, the Naimishas, the Koshalas, the Kasapaundras, the Kalingas, the Magadhas, and the Chedis who are all highly blassed, know what the eternal religion is. The wicked even of these various countries know what religion is. The Vahikas, however, live without righteousness. Begging with the Matsyas, the residents of the Kuru and the Panchala countries, the Naimishas as well and the other respectable peoples, the pious among all races are conversant with the eternal truths of religion. This cannot be said of the Madrakas and the *crooked-hearted race that resides in the country of the five rivers*. "
> _
> (Madrakas were a people of North Punjab, by modern-day Sialkot)




Did you even bother to read my post before declaring it 'quite inaccurate'?? 
I am seriously disappointed
And copy/pasting loads of irrelevant stuff from _Rigveda_ won't prove you right...


----------



## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> *Dhariwal *is a Punjabi Jat clan (or Rajput as per some sources) found chiefly in Ludhiana, Firozpur, and Patiala


Thank you, for further proving my point; I wonder how Chuhras serving East Punjabi Sikh Zamindars got to West Punjab in large numbers.



M. Sarmad said:


> *Sindhu* is the second largest Punjabi Jat clan whose origin probably is Satrah, Sialkot


You are mistaken with Sandhu. 



M. Sarmad said:


> *Unthwal* simply are camel-men and a lot of them live in and around Thal, Punjab also


Unthwal are generally associated with Bhil camel-traders, especially in the context of Chuhras. 



M. Sarmad said:


> *Hansi* is a city in Hisar, Punjab (now Haryana)


Thank you, for further proving my point.



M. Sarmad said:


> *Mattu* is a sub-clan of Jats


You are correct, Mattu is also a Kashmiri clan; I mixed up the two.



M. Sarmad said:


> Did you even bother to read my post before declaring it 'quite inaccurate'??


Oh I definitely did; have you read my reply? 



M. Sarmad said:


> And copy/pasting loads of irrelevant stuff from _Rigveda_ won't prove you right...


The fact that you think this was from the Rigveda, show how much you really know.


----------



## M. Sarmad

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Thank you, for further proving my point; I wonder how Chuhras serving East Punjabi Sikh Zamindars got to West Punjab in large numbers.
> 
> 
> You are mistaken with Sandhu.
> 
> 
> Unthwal are generally associated with Bhil camel-traders, especially in the context of Chuhras.
> 
> 
> Thank you, for further proving my point.
> 
> 
> You are correct, Mattu is also a Kashmiri clan; I mixed up the two.




You don't even know who _Sindhus _are ... Are you even Punjabi? 
And who said that Dhariwal Churahs are in large numbers in West Punjab?? 
How old are you? seriously



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Thank you, for further proving my point; I wonder how Chuhras serving East Punjabi Sikh Zamindars got to West Punjab in large numbers.
> 
> 
> You are mistaken with Sandhu.
> 
> 
> Unthwal are generally associated with Bhil camel-traders, especially in the context of Chuhras.
> 
> 
> Thank you, for further proving my point.
> 
> 
> You are correct, Mattu is also a Kashmiri clan; I mixed up the two.
> 
> 
> Oh I definitely did; have you read my reply?
> 
> 
> The fact that you think this was from the Rigveda, show how much you really know.




Stop quoting me ...
I am not interested in your childish nonsense.
This is a serious thread ...


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## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> You don't even know who _Sindhus _are



Than educate him about them who they are what they do where they do live
BTW who you are

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## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> You don't even know who _Sindhus _are ... Are you even Punjabi?


I definitely do know who the ancient Sindhus were; I plan on writing an academic essay on them soon. I do not see how that fits into the equation where you randomly claimed Sindhus were the second largest Jatt clan (which is not true) and most likely mixed them up with Jatt Sandhus.



M. Sarmad said:


> And who said that Dhariwal Churahs are in large numbers in West Punjab??



Are you sure that you live around the Sialkot area?

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## M. Sarmad

Brass Knuckles said:


> Than educate him about them who they are what they do where they do live
> BTW who you are



I can't educate someone who _pretends_ to know everything already.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I definitely do know who the ancient Sindhus were;



This statement alone is enough to show how much you really know ....



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Are you sure that you live around the Sialkot area?



As I said, I am not interested in your childish nonsense,
This is a serious thread, 
And if you have nothing to contribute, 
then don't spoil it


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## Talwar e Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> Stop quoting me ...
> I am not interested in your childish nonsense.
> This is a serious thread ...


That is sad my friend, I had hoped that you would learn for the benefit of both of us and abandon this odd narrative, if not, at least had given a reasonable argument. Unfortunately you have failed both. In the face of evidence and refutation you have been using evasion tactics through immature comments like these. If you cannot handle a simple academic discussion, then this may not be your forte.



M. Sarmad said:


> This statement alone is enough to show how much you really know ....


There are many references to Sindhus, please do elaborate instead of hiding behind a cloud of vagueness and ambiguity.


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## M. Sarmad

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> That is sad my friend, I had hoped that you would learn for the benefit of both of us and abandon this odd narrative, if not, at least had given a reasonable argument. Unfortunately you have failed both. In the face of evidence and refutation you have been using evasion tactics through immature comments like these. If you cannot handle a simple academic discussion, then this may not be your forte.



Go troll the Indians, bro... The only thing you are good at
This is a serious discussion meant for mature and knowledgeable posters only
Have a nice day...


----------



## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

takeiteasy said:


> Yes. Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs of northern India look around and see that the low castes are the converts to Christianity. Thus, in their minds they occupy Christianity to low castes. This was a new knowledge for me, when I lived with northern Indians during my Engg days. They know only either elite Anglo-Protestants or Goan Catholics and most of the "others" are native tribals converted to Christianity. That's why, I remember a Pakistani member here few years back tried to call Christians as Choor-Chamars, since his exposure to Christians in South Asia is limited to low caste/tribal converts. I did not understood this then, since I'm from Kerala.



You are wrong about Pakistan, we don’t have castes. Even our ancient ancestors which @Talwar e Pakistan pointed out did not follow the caste system but Rig Vedic/Ancient Iranic religion.

Christians are low economic classes, whom mostly were Hindu. They are looked down on by certain people, not all or even majority, for eating pork and drinking alcohol. Attitudes are changing now, Alhamdulilah.

Many of them are not native to our region (Punjab.) simply look at their complexion and facial features. They look like Indians.



M. Sarmad said:


> You don't even know who _Sindhus _are ... Are you even Punjabi?



You are the only Punjabi here it seems.

We must all be fake.

@Talwar e Pakistan @Taimur Khurram

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## Taimur Khurram

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Please do tell me what groups is it that most Pakistanis come from that would be considered "low" by Indians.



Jatts and Gujjars are the primary ones I was thinking of. Indians generally view these groups as low.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> The largest tribes of Punjab are Jatts, Rajputs, Sheikhs, Arains and Awans



Sheikhs, Awans and Arains all claim foreign origin. We've already covered Jatts, and I agree that Indians have a high view of Rajputs. You're not giving me any compelling reason to change my view.

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## Crusher

Kabira said:


> ................................ *Though sindh and balochistan not so ideal agricultural economy in older days was likely main reason not many went there*.



It has always been like this, people move to places where there is wealth/money or resources. The migrations of the churas from gangetic plains to westerards in punjab, kashmir, kpk in the past was no different than the current migrations of south asians to Gulf GCC, Europe or America, economics has always been the driving factor for people to "move" from one place to another.
Also they cannot be "old" inhabitants of punjab since most villages in punjab are hardly less than 500 years old because before 500 years there was no "persian wheel" introduced in punjab agriculture so agriculture was limited and only few villages exited at that time in comparison to the number that we have today which all depend on water irrigation from british built canals or persian wheels before that. I think before 500 years in punjab when agriculture was only limited to areas near river/stream banks or areas with good natural rain falls, most of the people must have lived a pastoral life that we see among "Gujjars/Bakarwal" people living in Kashmir and northern pakistan who move from season to season to different areas for greener pastures for their cattle/sheep/goats etc., milk/dairy products must have been a major food source in those days.

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## Taimur Khurram

Chhatrapati said:


> I'm not interested in explaining the videos word by word.



Then why on Earth are you still bothering to converse? You literally won't accept anything. Why even bother to challenge what I'm saying if you will just ignore whatever evidence I bring and reject any points I make? 



Chhatrapati said:


> Did they? Nope, never have a Muslim ruler set foot in where I live.



You're south Indian. All of south India has been under Muslim rule, one way or another. 



Chhatrapati said:


> If Indo-Aryan came in by waves, why there are no historical accounts of it?



There ARE. That's the thing, you don't know what you're talking about, and when I prove you wrong, you ask for evidence but don't use it.



Chhatrapati said:


> You are also wrong when calling Dasyu as a branch in Indo Aryans



No I'm not, it's a well established theory among academia that those people in the Vedas called the Dasyu are in fact another branch of Indo-Europeans.

Since you've proven you don't want a proper discussion by rejecting whatever evidence is thrown at you without giving any valid reason why, I'm not entertaining this discussion any further.

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## B.K.N

Simurgh said:


> I think before 500 years in punjab when agriculture was only limited to areas near river/stream banks



Not 500 years but until few decades ago
even near Rivers only a limited area was cultivated

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## Chhatrapati

Taimur Khurram said:


> Then why on Earth are you still bothering to converse? You literally won't accept anything. Why even bother to challenge what I'm saying if you will just ignore whatever evidence I bring and reject any points I make?


Like I already asked, why should I agree with whatever the video said? Is it the absolute and only truth? According to you I should have a conversation where I'm not allowed to disagree with points raised? lol Too fragile.



Taimur Khurram said:


> You're south Indian. All of south India has been under Muslim rule, one way or another.


Not really. My point still stands as no Islamic ruler has ever set foot in the place I live. Maybe they made a deal, doesn't matter. But you can look any Islamic empire maps and see a strip in south India that is not conquered.



Taimur Khurram said:


> There ARE. That's the thing, you don't know what you're talking about, and when I prove you wrong, you ask for evidence but don't use it.


Then bring me any links that supports your claim. You are saying there are evidence for an invasion, then quote history channel kinda theory clips. Did they publish any papers on the invasion? I expect a straight answer not some "Of course there are evidence, what are you saying, you don't know anything" kind of comments. It holds no water.



Taimur Khurram said:


> No I'm not, it's a well established theory among academia that those people in the Vedas called the Dasyu are in fact another branch of Indo-Europeans.


Is the name of theorist Taimur Khurram?  Sorry sunshine, there are no such branch anywhere in history.

Dasyu clan


----------



## M. Sarmad

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> You are the only Punjabi here it seems.



Looking at your posts........... seems like you guys are more Arab, Turk, Mughal and Persian (or even Aryan) than Punjabi.
You guys need to know your roots and take pride in your own identity. (If you really are _Punjabis_)


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## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> Looking at your posts, seems like you guys are more Arab, Turk, Mughal and Persian (or even Aryan) than Punjabi.
> You guys need to know your roots and take pride in your own identity. (If you really are _Punjabis_)



And you are here distributing certificates who is Punjabi who is arab

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## M. Sarmad

Brass Knuckles said:


> And you are here distributing certificates who is Punjabi



No, but I am really surprised at the ignorance of those about Punjab and its history/society (and their love for foreign races) who are trying to pass themselves off as _Punjabis_ here.



Simurgh said:


> The migrations of the churas from gangetic plains to westerards in punjab, kashmir, kpk ...



Again, any evidence to support this migration theory?


----------



## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> No, but I am really surprised at the ignorance of those about Punjab and its history/society (and their love for foreign races) who are trying to pass themselves off as _Punjabis_ here.



Actually they are trying to distance themselves from India and want to be associated with Western asians members like Indus Pakistan and some other

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## M. Sarmad

Brass Knuckles said:


> Actually they are trying to distance themselves from India and want to be associated with Western asians members like Indus Pakistan and some other



We are proud Pakistanis and this is enough to distance ourselves from Indians (who themselves are a highly diverse group/nation anyway). We really don't have to re-invent history as a distancing tool..

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## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> We are proud Pakistanis and this is enough to distance ourselves from Indians (who themselves are a highly diverse nation anyway). We really don't have to re-invent history as a distancing tool..



I am not saying we should do or not
I said what they are doing


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## Taimur Khurram

M. Sarmad said:


> Looking at your posts........... seems like you guys are more Arab, Turk, Mughal and Persian (or even Aryan) than Punjabi.
> You guys need to know your roots and take pride in your own identity. (If you really are _Punjabis_)



In your eyes, anyone who doesn't act like a Kafir isn't a real Punjabi. That's ultimately what you're dog-whistling.

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## M. Sarmad

Taimur Khurram said:


> In your eyes, anyone who doesn't act like a Kafir isn't a real Punjabi. That's ultimately what you're dog-whistling.



Rejecting your pseudo-historical revisionism doesn't make someone _'Kafir'... _
Get a life 'Mufti' sahib


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Brass Knuckles said:


> Actually they are trying to distance themselves from India and want to be associated with Western asians members like Indus Pakistan and some other


No need to create fake identity to distance yourself with Indians. Pakistani just like Indians don't belong to one race or ethnic group. Indus Pakistani is Pashtun so he can associate with afghans and Persian.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

I’m Rajput Punjabi before anything, but I’m not going to reject my commonality with Afghans, Arabs, Persians, and Turks to make you happy.

Significant populations of Punjab have foreign origins like Arains, Niyazis, and Sayyids.

Our time under Turco-Persian dynasties caused our reawakening as a nation and our Islamization. It was the seminal event in our history.



Taimur Khurram said:


> In your eyes, anyone who doesn't act like a Kafir isn't a real Punjabi. That's ultimately what you're dog-whistling.



You don’t have to love and idolize Ranjit Singh to be classified as a true Punjabi...

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> I’m Rajput Punjabi before anything, but I’m not going to reject my commonality with Afghans, Arabs, Persians, and Turks to make you happy.
> 
> Significant populations of Punjab have foreign origins like Arains, Niyazis, and Sayyids.
> 
> Our time under Turco-Persian dynasties caused our reawakening as a nation and our Islamization. It was the seminal event in our history.
> 
> 
> 
> You don’t have to love and idolize Ranjit Singh to be classified as a true Punjabi...


What Rajput clan you belong?
I am Janjua Rajput and i think Pakistani Rajputs share nothing with Afghans, Turks, Persian, Arabs except religious beliefs and sure we can only speak for ourselves and people are free to claim foreign origin if it make them feel superior but truth is this love and affiliation with arabs/Persian/central asians is one sided because others side don't associate with us in any way ..They even make fun of us that why we are naming our missiles abadli, gauri etc

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> No need to create fake identity to distance yourself with Indians. Pakistani just like Indians don't belong to one race or ethnic group. Indus Pakistani is Pashtun so he can associate with afghans and Persian.


With Pashtuns in Afghanistan, yes; he can. But how did Persians come into the equation?

Genetic studies have shown that all the native ethnic groups of Pakistan cluster together and are very similar.

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## Taimur Khurram

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> You don’t have to love and idolize Ranjit Singh to be classified as a true Punjabi...



As per this retard you do.



M. Sarmad said:


> pseudo-historical revisionism



The only one revising history is you lol, Mr "Khokhar dynasty wasn't Muslim".

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Taimur Khurram said:


> The only one revising history is you lol, Mr "Khokhar dynasty wasn't Muslim".


Did he actually say that?

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## M. Sarmad

Taimur Khurram said:


> As per this retard you do.
> 
> 
> 
> The only one revising history is you lol, Mr "Khokhar dynasty wasn't Muslim".



Calling others _Kafir_ and _retards_ won't prove you right, my Arab wannabe desi friend

As for Jasrath Khokhar, he was mentioned as 'infidel' by Yahya Sirhindi in his _Tarikh-i-Mubarak Shahi_
As per Bada'uni, Jasrath Khokhar was son of Shaikha Khokhar. But as per Ferishta, Jusrut was brother of Shaikha Gakhar ....

Go read _Tarikh-i-Mubarak Shahi , _then google what 'revisionism' means, and then come back here to discuss that




Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Did he actually say that?



Not me, bro .... The famous 15th century Indian chronicler Yahya bin Ahmad Sirhindi said that about Jasrath Khokhar. .... Declare your "Jihad" against him, not me


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> With Pashtuns in Afghanistan, yes; he can. But how did Persians come into the equation?
> 
> Genetic studies have shown that all the native ethnic groups of Pakistan cluster together and are very similar.


Non Pashtun of Afghanistan claim to be afghan thats why i wrote afghan/Persian. Pashtu is also an eastern Iranian language. Afghanistan has been part of Persian empire . Countries like Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan share national heroes, poets, and folklore. Modern Persian language evolved around north eastern Iran (Khorasan) close to Afghanistan and Irans most famous poets and writers are actually from northern Afghanistan, Tajikistan or the tajik region of Uzbekistan

Persia









Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Genetic studies have shown that all the native ethnic groups of Pakistan cluster together and are very similar.


We are talking about origin
off course if people from different ethnic groups live together for centuries then they will share similarities

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## Taimur Khurram

M. Sarmad said:


> Calling others _Kafir_ and _retards_ won't prove you right



Neither will you randomly calling people wannabe Arabs.



M. Sarmad said:


> As for Jasrath Khokhar, he was mentioned as 'infidel' by Yahya Sirhindi in his _Tarikh-i-Mubarak Shahi_



Almost every source calls him a Muslim. The only reason he's called a Kafir in that book is because he fought against the Delhi Sultanate. So of course, a book from the Delhi Sultanate would call him a Kafir.

Your methodology is completely autistic, but that's to be expected since you reject ahadith.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Did he actually say that?



Yes lol.

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## M. Sarmad

Taimur Khurram said:


> Neither will you randomly calling people wannabe Arabs.
> 
> 
> 
> Almost every source calls him a Muslim. The only reason he's called a Kafir in that book is because he fought against the Delhi Sultanate. So of course, a book from the Delhi Sultanate would call him a Kafir.
> 
> Your methodology is completely autistic, but that's to be expected since you reject ahadith.



You are an Arab wannabe Takfiri sectarian who loves to issue 'Kufr' fatwas against those who disagree with him on anything, from history to politics or religion.... And you are doing that on every thread now

As for the reason behind labeling of Jasrat Khokhar as infidel by _Yahya_, we can speculate as much as we want. That may or may not have been the 'reason' ... but the fact remains that Jasrath has been mentioned as an 'infidel' in the chronicles of the Delhi Sultanate. And I have just pointed out what those chronicles state...


----------



## Taimur Khurram

M. Sarmad said:


> You are an Arab wannabe Takfiri sectarian who loves to issue 'Kufr' fatwas against those who disagree with him on anything, from history to politics or religion.... And you are doing that on every thread now



No, I've issued takfir upon you because you're a Kafir and it's very apparent. All you do is label people as Arab wannabes when it suits you.



M. Sarmad said:


> we can speculate as much as we want.



It's not "speculation", you've got 1 source to contradict literally every other. The view that Jasrath is a Kafir is simply untenable, and your source can easily be explained away.

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## M. Sarmad

Taimur Khurram said:


> I've issued takfir upon you because you're a Kafir and it's very apparent.



Then apnay is fatway ki batti bana and shove it up your rear end. 



Taimur Khurram said:


> It's not "speculation", you've got 1 source to contradict literally every other. The view that Jasrath is a Kafir is simply untenable, and your source can easily be explained away.



Open a new thread. Post your sources... And if multiple reliable sources (the primary ones) say that Jasrath Khokhar was a Muslim, then (and only then) can your explanation be accepted.


----------



## Taimur Khurram

M. Sarmad said:


> Open a new thread. Post your sources



Maybe later, insha'Allah.


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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> What Rajput clan you belong?
> I am Janjua Rajput and i think Pakistani Rajputs share nothing with Afghans, Turks, Persian, Arabs except religious beliefs and sure we can only speak for ourselves and people are free to claim foreign origin if it make them feel superior but truth is this love and affiliation with arabs/Persian/central asians is one sided because others side don't associate with us in any way ..They even make fun of us that why we are naming our missiles abadli, gauri etc



Rajputs of Hoshiarpur. I don’t want to go any deeper brother.

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## Yankee-stani

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> I’m Rajput Punjabi before anything, but I’m not going to reject my commonality with Afghans, Arabs, Persians, and Turks to make you happy.
> 
> Significant populations of Punjab have foreign origins like Arains, Niyazis, and Sayyids.
> 
> Our time under Turco-Persian dynasties caused our reawakening as a nation and our Islamization. It was the seminal event in our history.
> 
> 
> 
> You don’t have to love and idolize Ranjit Singh to be classified as a true Punjabi...



I am going go with @Proudpakistaniguy we got nothing in common with these Central Asians,Turks or etc Iran sort of we just have the same religion besides those regions went through demographic changes over the centuries their look our look change

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Taimur Khurram said:


> No, I've issued takfir upon you because you're a Kafir and it's very apparent. All you do is label people as Arab wannabes when it suits you.



Let’s keep this out of PDF for now, brother.

The consensus of the ulema on Quranists is well known.

Fact is that significant populations of Pakistanis are descended from Muslim populations from beyond our borders.

Even my Rajput clan intermarried with Turkics (Mughals, etc.) and Tajiks/Persians (Ghauris.)

How can we deny our heritage?


----------



## Yankee-stani

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Let’s be keep this out of PDF for now, brother.
> 
> The consensus of the ulema on Quranists is well known.
> 
> Fact is that significant populations of Pakistanis are descended from Muslim populations from beyond our borders.
> 
> Even my Rajput clan intermarried with Turkics (Mughals, etc.) and Tajiks/Persians (Ghauris.)
> 
> How can we deny our heritage?



Centuries ago yeah but we developed into our own identity enough we wuz this its Pakistan in 2019

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

OsmanAli98 said:


> I am going go with @Proudpakistaniguy we got nothing in common with these Central Asians,Turks or etc Iran sort of we just have the same religion besides those regions went through demographic changes over the centuries their look our look change



Do you deny your own blood composition? Your cultural origins? Nomadic blood and warrior spirit runs deep within us.

We are mostly descended from invaders on this land, as the previous inhabitants have been diluted to almost nonexistence by Aryan/Iranic and subsequent settlement.

The Iranic migrations which led to our current zat and biradri system.

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## Yankee-stani

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Do you deny your own blood composition? Your cultural origins? Nomadic blood and warrior spirit runs deep within us.
> 
> We are mostly descended from invaders on this land, as the previous inhabitants have been diluted to almost nonexistence by Aryan/Iranic and subsequent settlement.
> 
> The Iranic migrations which led to our current zat and biradri system.



Who says I am denying that no I say we are Iranic people but geography and geo politics combined gave us this identity I want us to racially identify as Pakistanis that's what's I am implying

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

OsmanAli98 said:


> Who says I am denying that no I say we are Iranic people but geography and geo politics combined gave us this identity I want us to racially identify as Pakistanis that's what's I am implying



Today, we are Pakistanis, yes.

Racially we have been sons of this soil for the last 2000 years atleast, we settled this land and made it our own.

We grew up here and we buried our dead here. For us, it is our Holy Earth (Arz e Pak) as Allama Iqbal referred to this land even before Pakistan.

Pakistan though is not merely a racial or ethnic identity, but rather it is a spiritual and philosophical mindset as well.

It is a dream and a destiny. It is a wish of our ancestors, keeping this land sanctified with Allah swt’s name.

In this way, we share commonality in mindset with Turks. Both of us believe in the same idea of qadr of our nation, the will and confidence to propagate Islam in the heartland of Kufr.

It is a shame that Arab, Persian, and Afghans have lost their paths and embraced this hollow and self-defeating concept of secular nationalism.

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## Yankee-stani

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Today, we are Pakistanis, yes.
> 
> Racially we have been sons of this soil for the last 2000 years atleast, we settled this land and made it our own.
> 
> We grew up here and we buried our dead here. For us, it is our Holy Earth (Arz e Pak) as Allama Iqbal referred to this land even before Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan though is not merely a racial or ethnic identity, but rather it is a spiritual and philosophical mindset as well.
> 
> It is a dream and a destiny. It is a wish of our ancestors, keeping this land sanctified with Allah swt’s name.
> 
> In this way, we share commonality in mindset with Turks. Both of us believe in the same idea of qadr of our nation, the will and confidence to propagate Islam in the heartland of Kufr.
> 
> It is a shame that Arab, Persian, and Afghans have lost their paths and embraced this hollow and self-defeating concept of secular nationalism.



Slight disagreement this my issue with Pakistanis stop this infatutuation with Foreigners besides the Turks dont share the same view like us they are secular nationalists and Ataturk was a secularist Erdogan is a phase once he is gone which is good they will be more nationalistic

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## M. Sarmad

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan
So, you are just another sectarian Takfiri .....
Not surprising though



Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Let’s be keep this out of PDF *for now*, brother.
> 
> The consensus of the ulema .... is well known.

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## B.K.N

M. Sarmad said:


> @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan
> So, you just are another sectarian Takfiri .....
> Not surprised though



Sectarian takfiri?


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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Brass Knuckles said:


> Sectarian takfiri?



Add it to list of other complaints...



OsmanAli98 said:


> Slight disagreement this my issue with Pakistanis stop this infatutuation with Foreigners besides the Turks dont share the same view like us they are secular nationalists and Ataturk was a secularist Erdogan is a phase once he is gone which is good they will be more nationalistic



Maybe I’m not reading the same material or acquainted with the same people you are.

I would hardly consider Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi, Yunus Emre, Said Nursi, Mehmet Asif Ersoy as seculars.

Pakistan has its fair share of secular liberals too.

However Allama Iqbal, Maulana Maududi, Mufti Taqi Usmani, and Dr. Israr Ahmad were/are hardly secular.

Seculars have not had a large influence on our society and remain fringe at best.


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## SIPRA

I think that it's one's own choice and will, how he/she prioritizes and ranks his religious, national, ethnic and caste associations and identities, but than this ranking leads to making certain judgements on historical incidences and persons. Often, this process is subconscious, in nature.

For example, if a Muslim Punjabi gives a precedence to being Muslim, over his ethnic identity; than to him Ahmad Shah Abdali would most probably be a hero. In a converse situation, may be, Ranjeet Singh would assume this position.

Calling people Kafir, on such positionings, is unfortunate and unwarranted.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

RIWWIR said:


> Calling people Kafir, on such positionings, is unfortunate and unwarranted.



That's not the contention brother.

If someone knows he has some heterodox ideas about religion, it would be wise not to pass judgements on others nor pass his/her ideas as normative.

Simply put, when you point one finger at someone, then four fingers point back at you.

Just wait and you will understand.

Saying that, let’s get back on topic.

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## M. Sarmad

RIWWIR said:


> I think that it's one's own choice and will, how he/she prioritizes and ranks his religious, national, ethnic and caste associations and identities, but than this ranking leads to making certain judgements on historical incidences and persons. Often, this process is subconscious, in nature.
> 
> For example, if a Muslim Punjabi gives a precedence to being Muslim, over his ethnic identity; than to him Ahmad Shah Abdali would most probably be a hero. In a converse situation, may be, Ranjeet Singh would assume this position.



Those _Punjabis_ who consider Ahmad Shah a hero, they do so more because of their hatred towards India than anything else. For them anyone and everyone who attacks (or has attacked) and ransacks India is a hero regardless of his religion. They are completely oblivious to the fact that Abdali's invasions of India/Punjab were purely plundering campaigns with absolutely no religious overtones or undertones as they were directed against other Muslims most of the time. And I won't blame them as it's the state-sponsored indoctrination via distortion that, while trying to 'resolve' the Pakistani identity crisis (esp. post 1971, when 'Mutalia Pakistan' was introduced), has instilled irrational admiration and love of foreign invaders in them through school textbooks and other materials. 

As for _Ranjeet Singh_, he may not be a hero for Pakistani _Punjabis_, but the emergence of the sovereign state of Punjab in 1799 under Ranjit Singh was a moment of crowning glory in the evolution of a distinctive Punjabi identity. And it was the Sikhs who rolled back the Afghans to the current border that was later formalized as Durand Line by the British. Ranjit Singh's rule, as per neutral accounts, was impartial, humanitarian and lenient towards all societies. 




RIWWIR said:


> Calling people Kafir, on such positionings, is unfortunate and unwarranted.



Being declared _Kafir_ by these clueless wannabes when they run out of arguments in a historical/political debate should be taken as a 'compliment' instead. By doing so, these bigots not only expose their bigotry, but ignorance and lack of knowledge also.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

RIWWIR said:


> I think that it's one's own choice and will, how he/she prioritizes and ranks his religious, national, ethnic and caste associations and identities, but than this ranking leads to making certain judgements on historical incidences and persons. Often, this process is subconscious, in nature.
> 
> For example, if a Muslim Punjabi gives a precedence to being Muslim, over his ethnic identity; than to him Ahmad Shah Abdali would most probably be a hero. In a converse situation, may be, Ranjeet Singh would assume this position.
> 
> Calling people Kafir, on such positionings, is unfortunate and unwarranted.


Actually true muslim is someone who is fair and take side of truth and justice even if he has to go against his own brother if he is on wrong side or if he is aggressor. Slogan of Islam was often used in the past for political power and for plundering others. You are assuming that all past Muslim rulers were just saints whose only motive was to serve just Islam and they had never violated any Islamic rules and principles which is always based on fairness without any material motive in mind.

Its not as simple as Muslim vs Non Muslim thing otherwise why Pakistani army would be fighting a war against talibans when boht claim claim to be Muslims... taliban considered themselves true Muslim before Pakistani/Afghani and according to their logic Pakistan army was playing in the hand of western kufr army so right to do jihad against them. Whom side you will pick if you consider yourself Muslim before Pakistani or Punjabi ? funny that our Pakistani Punjabi Muslims blindly praise Muslim, arab, afghan rulers by suppressing their ethnic Identity yet People in these countries are more proud of their identity of being arab, afghan and persian and consider others races as inferior lol look all these Afghan Iran and arab countries who have got better relationship with kufr countries (including our enemy India) than taking side of poor Muslim countries so political interests was more dear to them than their brothers



RIWWIR said:


> Calling people Kafir, on such positionings, is unfortunate and unwarranted.


Completely agree. Calling someone kufr will not make you a better Muslims. We should care about ourselves that how much Islam we have in our lives instead of labelling others and to worry about them

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Completely agree. Calling someone kufr will not make you a better Muslims. We should care about ourselves that how much Islam we have in our lives instead of labelling others and to worry about them



Good advice for _all_.

Posters should think this through before calling people fake anything.



M. Sarmad said:


> Being declared _Kafir_ by these *clueless wannabes* when they run out of arguments in a historical/political debate should be taken as a 'compliment' instead. By doing so, these *bigots* not only expose their bigotry, but *ignorance* and *lack of knowledge* also.



Yet you still can’t stop attacking people who disagree with you about nuances, which led him to point out your ideology (Quranist) and yet you continue judging people as true/false Muslim or Punjabi.

You are the biggest takfiri here. Just let things roll off and move on.



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> taliban considered themselves true Muslim before Pakistani/Afghani



Since when are Afghan Taliban and TTP the same?

There are dozens of Taliban groups, not all have the same goals, and many are enemies to each other.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Since when are Afghan Taliban and TTP the same?
> 
> There are dozens of Taliban groups, not all have the same goals, and many are enemies to each other.


I was just trying to make a point . You can differentiate between good and bad Taliban's but truth is Pakistan army opposed boht because they challenged the writ of the state and wanted to implement their extreme illiterate version of Islam in throat of others by force. Secondly my point was that war is not always between Islam and kufr and there are different motives behind wars. Past wars was not all about Islam vs Hinduvs sikh but Muslims also fought against others Muslims i.e Afghan fought wars with Mughals, Muslims Rajputs fought wars with boht Mughals and Afghans inavders and some even fought among themselves for power i.e Gakkhar and Janjua Rajputs have been fighting among each others over control of salt region of PHOTOHAR. Some were allies of Mughal others showed resistance against them so history is not this simple

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## M. Sarmad

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> Yet you still can’t stop attacking people who disagree with you about nuances, which led him to point out your ideology (Quranist) and yet you continue judging people as true/false Muslim or Punjabi.
> 
> You are the biggest takfiri here. Just let things roll off and move on.



lol at _biggest Takfiri
_
I have never declared _Takfir_ upon anyone in my entire life. I, unlike you lot, believe that it's for Allah alone to judge/decide that who is a Muslim (or who is not)...

And no, I did not attack anyone for disagreeing with me, I only pointed out the bigotry of those (including you) who declared _Takfir_ on me when unable to bring forward any counter arguments/facts in a discussion that was not even about religion but history.

Now **** off and don't quote me again .... I have zero regards for Takfiris and sectarian bigots like you...



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I was just trying to make a point . You can differentiate between good and bad Taliban's but truth is Pakistan army opposed boht because they challenged the writ of the state and wanted to implement their extreme illiterate version of Islam in throat of others by force. Secondly my point was that war is not always between Islam and kufr and there are different motives behind wars. Past wars was not all about Islam vs Hinduvs sikh but Muslims also fought against others Muslims i.e Afghan fought wars with Mughals, Muslims Rajputs fought wars with boht Mughals and Afghans inavders and some even fought among themselves for power i.e Gakkhar and Janjua Rajputs have been fighting among each others over control of salt region of PHOTOHAR. Some were allies of Mughal others showed resistance against them so history is not this simple



You are just wasting your time ... This lot is too bigoted to tolerate any difference of opinions and they will soon resort to Takfir and name calling.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I was just trying to make a point . You can differentiate between good and bad Taliban's



Oh ok. Maybe Daesh or TTP is a more apt example as they have been fighting Pakistan and Taliban.

Afghan Kabul government is a host of all sorts of terrorist outfits. Alhamdulilah their time is over.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

M. Sarmad said:


> You are just wasting your time ... This lot is too bigoted to tolerate any difference of opinions and they will soon resort to Takfir and name calling.


Mate I also disagree with your views about Hadiths and I can debate about it but I will never distribute certificate of Muslim or non Muslim, patriot or traitors to others. Its easier for us to find flaws in others and to judge them but hard to do some introspection..any way we should debate about topics without discussing individuals and without personal attacks .we cannot change the mind of others by name calling and we are all adults so should behave like ones

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## M. Sarmad

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Mate I also disagree with your views about Hadiths and I can debate about it but I will never distribute certificate of Muslim or non Muslim, patriot or traitors to others. Its easier for us to find flaws in others and to judge them but hard to do some introspection..any way we should debate about topics without discussing individuals and without personal attacks .we cannot change the mind of others by name calling and we are all adults so should behave like ones



You have every right to disagree with my views on anything .... Everyone is entitled to his opinions... And it's really good that you are mature enough to avoid issuing _Takfir _.. But the moment one resorts to Takfir during a debate, he loses the right to complain about being called out on his bigotry (or being replied in kind, less the Takfir of course)...

Anyway, let's get back to the topic.

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## Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

M. Sarmad said:


> Now **** off and don't quote me again .... I have zero regards for Takfiris and sectarian bigots like you...



That’s fine by me.

By the way for all others reading, I didn’t make takfir on this poster personally, just stated opinions of ulema on Quranists (rejection of Hadith.)

It is the same for other deviant sects like Ahmadiyyas, Khawarij/Daesh, and others.

I would not be bothered otherwise, except when someone passes themselves off as an authority of deen.

May Allah swt guide us all to His way.

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## M. Sarmad

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said:


> By the way for all others reading, I didn’t make takfir on this poster personally, just stated opinions of ulema on Quranists (rejection of Hadith.)
> 
> It is the same for other deviant sects like Ahmadiyyas, Khawarij/Daesh, and others.



And ironically, I do not believe in wholesale rejection of '_Hadith'_ ... I just believe in greater scrutiny and refuse to be a blind follower of Mullahs... 

Anyways, Let's get back to the topic:


Excerpts from: The Panjab Census, 1881, by Denzil Ibbetson, published 1883 (Ch: VI, pp. 317-320):

*The Scavenger Castes*

The class is numerically and economically one of the most important in the Province, for the Chuhras are only exceeded in number by the Jat, Rajput, and Brahman, while they occupy a very prominent position among the agricultural labourers of the Panjab. But socially they are the lowest of the low, even lower perhaps than the vagrant Sansi and The gypsy Nat, and as a rule can hardly be said to stand even at the foot of the social ladder, though some sections of the clan have mounted the first one or two steps. Their hereditary occupation is scavenging, sweeping the houses and streets, working up, carrying to the fields, and distributing manure, and in cities and in village houses where the women are strictly secluded, removing night soil. They alone of all classes keep those impure animals, pigs and fowls ; and they and the leather-workers alone eat the flesh of animals that have died of disease or by natural death. Together with the vagrants and gypsies they are the here dietary workers in grass and reeds, from which they make winnowing pans and other articles used in agriculture ; and like them they eat jackals, lizards, tortoises, and pigs. Many of them have abandoned scavenging and taken to leather-work and even to weaving and by doing so have mounted one or even two steps in the social grades, as in the latter ease they pass over the leather-workers. But to secure the full benefit of this change of occupation they must relinquish the habit of eating carrion. Their agricultural functions will be presently described. *It is probable that they are essentially of aboriginal origin ; but there is little doubt that the aboriginal nucleus has received additions from other sources*, of those who have gradually sunk in the scale of occupations or have in any way been degraded to the lowest level. The distribution of the class will be noticed as each of the three castes is dis cussed. In the hills they are replaced by menials who will be described in the separate section on the menials of those parts.

__ 1 Mr. Clanning suggests that these men may be the faqirs of the shrine of Shah Chokha a saint much venerated by The Meos ; in so much that the abduction of a married woman from the fair of the saint is held to be allowable, Shah Chokha being said to have given the woman to the abductor. _

*The Chuhra*
(Caste No. 4)

The Chuhra or Bhangi of Hindustan is the sweeper and scavenger par excellence of the Panjab, is found throughout the Province except in the hills, where he is replaced by other castes presently to be described. He is comparatively rare on the frontier, where he is, I believe, chiefly confined to the towns ; and most numerous in the Lahore and Amritsar divisions and Faridkot where much of the agricultural labour is performed by him, as he here fills the position with respect to field-work which is held in the east of the Province by the Chamar. For the frontier, however, the figures of Abstract No. 72 must be added, which shows the Chuhras and Kutanas who have returned themselves as Jats. He is one of the village menials proper, who receive a customary share of the produce and perform certain duties. In the east of the Province he sweeps the houses and village, collects the cowdung, pats it into cakes and stacks it, works up the manure, helps with the cattle, and takes them from village to village. News of a death sent to friends is invariably carried by him, and he is the general village messenger [Lehhar, Baldi, Baidhar, Daura) . He also makes the child} or winnowing pan, and the sirki or grass thatch used to cover carts and the like. In the centre of the Province he adds to these functions actual hard work at the plough and in the field. He claims the flesh of such dead animals as do not divide the hoof, the cloven-footed belonging to the Chamar. But his occupations change somewhat with his religion ; and here it will be well to show exactly what other entries of our schedules I have included under the head of Chuhra : —





They prefer to call themselves Chuhra, looking upon the term Bhangi as opprobrious, These various names denote nothing more than a change of religion sometimes accompanied by a change of occupation. Table VIII shows that the Hindu Chuhra, that is to say the Chuhra who follows the original religion of the caste and has been classed by us as Hindu, is found in all the eastern half of the Panjab plains : but that west of Lahore he hardly exists save in the great cities of Rawalpindi, Multan and Peshawar. His religion is sketched in Pari VIII of the Chapter on Religion. I may add that since writing that chapter, I have received traditions from distant parts of the Province which leave little doubt that Bala Shah, one of the Chuhra Gurus, is another name for Bal Mik; a hunter of the Karnal district, who was converted by a holy Rishi, and eventually wrote the Ramayana. The Rishi wished to prescribe penance, but reflected that so vile a man would not be able to say RAM RAM. So he set him to say MRA iMRA which, if you say it fast enough, comes to much the same thing. Their other guru is Fill Beg ; and they still call their priests Lal gurus. They generally marry by phera and bur y their dead face downwards, though they not unseldom follow in these respects the custom of the villagers whom they serve.

*The Sikh Chuhra -Mazbi and Rangreta*
The second and third entries in the table of the last paragraph, viz., Mazbi and Rangreta, denote Chuhras who have become Sikhs. Of course a Mazbi will often have been returned as Chuhra by caste and Sikh by religion ; and the figures of Table VIIIA are the ones to be followed, those given above being intended merely to show how many men returned to me under each of the heads shown I have classed as Chuhras. Sikh Churas are almost confined to the district and states immediately east and south-east of Lahore^ which form the centre of Sikhism.

Mazbi means nothing more than a member of the scavenger class converted to Sikhism. {see further paf/e 154). The Mazbis take the pahul, wear their hair long, and abstain from tobacco, and they apparently refuse to touch night-soil, though performing all the other otfices hereditary to the Chuhra caste. Their great Gunt is Teg Bahadur, whose mutilated body was brought back from Dehli by Chuhras who were then and there admitted to the faith as a reward for their devotion. But though good Sikhs so far as religious observance is concerned, the taint of hereditary pollution is upon them ; and Sikhs of other castes refuse to associate with them even in religious ceremonies. They often intermarry with the Lai Begi or Hindu Chuhra. They make capital soldiers and some of our regiments are wholly composed of Mazbis. The Rangreta are a class of Mazbi apparently found only in Ambala, Ludhiana and the neighbourhood, who consider themselves socially superior to the rest. The origin of their superiority, I am informed, lies in the fact that they were once notorious as highway robbers ! But it appears that the Rangretas have very generally abandoned scavengering for leather work, and this would at once account for their rise in the social scale. In the hills Rangreta is often used as synonymous with . Rangrez, or Chhimba or Lilari to denote the cotton dyer and stamper ; and in Sirsa the Sikhs will often call any Chuhra whom they wish to please Rangreta, and a rhyme is current Rangreta, Guru kd beta, or the Rangreta is the son of the Guru.^^

*The Musalman Chuhra— Musalli, Kutana, &c*
Almost all the Chuhras west of Lahore are Musalmans, and they are very commonly called Musalli or Kutana, the two terms being apparently- almost synonymous, but Kutana being chiefly used in the south- west and Musalli in the north-west. In Sirsa the converted Chuhra Is called Dindar or faithful '■' as a term of respect, or Khojab, a euimch, in satirical allusion to his circumcision, or, as sometimes interpreted, Khoja, one who has found salvation. But it appears that in many parts The Musalman Chuhra continues to be called Chuhra so long as he eats carrion or removes night-soil, and is only promoted to the title of Musalli on his relinquishing those habits, the Musalli being considered distinctly a lugher class than the Chuhra. On the other hand the Musalli of the frontier towns does remove night-soil. On the Peshawar frontier the Musalli Is the grave-digger as well as the sweeper, and is said to be some times called Shahi Khel, though this latter title would seem to be more generally used for Chuhras who have settled on the upper Indus and taken to working in grass and reeds like the Kutanas presently to be described,

Kutana, or as it Is more commonly called in The villages KurtanaS is the name usually given to a class of Musalman sweepers who have settled on the bank of the lower Indus, have given up scavengering and eating carrion, and taken to making ropes and working in grass and reeds ; though the word is also applied to any Mahomedan sweeper. Some of the Kurtanas even cultivate land on their own account. So long as they do no scavenger ing the Kurtanas are admitted to religious equality by The other Mahomedans. I think It Is not impossible that the Kurtanas of the Indus banks are a distinct caste from the Bhangi and Chuhra of the Eastern Panjab. The detailed table of clans will doubtless throw light on the point.

*Divisions of The Chuhras*
The Chuhra divisions are very numerous, but the larger sections returned in our schedules only include about half the total number. Some of the largest are shown in the margin. The greater number of them are evidently named after the dominant tribe whom they or their ancestors served. The Sahotra Is far the most widely distributed, and this and the Bhatti and Khokhar are the principal tribes in the Multan and Rawalpindi divisions. The others seem to be most largely returned from the Lahore and Amritsar divisions. Those who returned themselves as Chuhras and Musallis respectively showed some large tribes, and the above figures Include both. The Kutanas returned no large tribes.





*The Dhanak*
(Caste No. 43)

The Dhanak is found only in the Dehli and Hissar divisions and the eastern portion of the Phulklan States. He is essentially a caste of Hindustan and not of the Panjab proper. Sir H. Elliott says that they are most numerous in Behar, and that they are fowlers, archers, and watchmen, besides performing other menial service. He says that the Aheri tribe of hunters is an offshoot from the Dhanaks, and Wilson derives the name from the Sanskrit clhanushka, a bowman. The Panjab Dhanaks, however, are not Inmters, and the only difference between their avocations and those of the Chuhras would appear to be that the Dhanaks, while they will do general scavenging, will not remove night-soil

' There i^ said to be a respectable agricultural caste of this name in Derah Ismail Khan, who must be distinguished from The sweeper Kurtana. soil^ and that a great deal of weaving is done by them in the villages. Like the chuhras, they are generally village menials proper^ having customary rights and duties. The Chuhras are said to look down upon the Dhunaks ; but they are apparently on an equality^ as neither will eat the leavings of the other, though each will eat the leavings of all other tribes except Sansis, not excluding Khatiks. There are practically speaking no Sikh or Muslim Dhanaks, and their religion would appear to be that of the Chuhras, as the only considerable tribe the Dhanaks have returned is Lul Guru, another name for Lai Beg the sweeper Guru. But they are said to burn their dead. They marry by phera and no Brahman will officiate.

*The Khatik*
(Caste No. 87)

This also is a caste of Hindustan, and is found in any numbers only in the Jamna zone, Patiala, and Sirsa. But it has apparently followed our troops into the Panjab, and is found in most of the large cantonments or in their neighbourhood. Many of these latter have adopted the Musalman religion. They appear to be closely allied to the Pasis, and indeed are sometimes classed as a tribe of that caste. They form a connecting link between the scavengers and the leather-workers, though they occupy a social position distinctly inferior to that of the latter. They are great keepers of pigs and poultry, which a Chamar would not keep. At the same time many of them tan and dye leather, and indeed are not seldom confused Avith the Chamrang. The Khatik, however, tans only sheep and goat skins (so at least I am informed by some Lahore Khatiks and Cham rangs) using salt and the juice of the Madar {Calotropis proocra), but no lime ; while the Chamrang tans buffalo and ox hides with lime, and does not dye leather. It is probable, however, that Chamrang is more the name of an occupation than of a caste.

The Khatik is said sometimes to keep sheep and goats and twist their hair into waistbands for sale ; and even occasionally to act as butcher, but this last seems improbable from his low position, unless indeed it be as a pork-butcher. At the same time the information that 1 have received is very conflicting, and it may be that I have put the Khatik too low, and that he would have better been classed with the leather-workers. So far as I can make out, the fact is that the Khatik of the east is a pig-keeper and the Khatik of the west a tanner, the latter occupying a higher position than the former (see further under Chamrang, section 6 09). Mr. Christie tells me that the Hindu Khatik pig-keeper is a Purbi immigrant ; while the Musalman Khatik tanner of the Panjab proper is nothing more than a Chamar who has adopted Islam and given up working in cowhide.

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## Taimur Khurram

RIWWIR said:


> Calling people Kafir, on such positionings, is unfortunate and unwarranted.



If you're not Muslim first then I'm sorry but that's what you are.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Taimur Khurram said:


> If you're not Muslim first then I'm sorry but that's what you are.


There should not be this debate about who come first or second or third . National/ethnic identity can exist along with religious identity and why you are making clash between them. Secondly you are only responsible for yourselves . If someone believe in Allah then we should be careful before passing judgement of kufr on them in our personal capacity because they say Allah can forgive anything except shirk . You are living in kufr land along with kafirs and I bet you are not having tough time there so avoid being so judgemental about others because they will judge you in same manners which you would not like

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## Taimur Khurram

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> . You are living in kufr land along with kafirs and I bet you are not having tough time there so avoid being so judgemental about others because they will judge you in same manners which you would not like



When did I say anything bad about Kafirs?

Also, I'm not living here in accordance to my will. Circumstances have forced me to live here. The plan is to go to Pakistan ASAP and work there.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Taimur Khurram said:


> When did I say anything bad about Kafirs?
> 
> Also, I'm not living here in accordance to my will. Circumstances have forced me to live here. The plan is to go to Pakistan ASAP and work there.


Good for you mate...be at peace with others no matter where you live . People can respect and love each other in spite of their cultural, religious, and political differences.

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## SIPRA

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Slogan of Islam was often used in the past for political power and for plundering others. You are assuming that all past Muslim rulers were just saints whose only motive was to serve just Islam and they had never violated any Islamic rules and principles which is always based on fairness without any material motive in mind.



Brother. Apparently, you are responding to my post, but you appear to have totally misread my post, since you are ascribing to me a claim, which I haven't made, at all, in my post. Kindly reread my post.



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Whom side you will pick if you consider yourself Muslim before Pakistani or Punjabi ? funny that our Pakistani Punjabi Muslims blindly praise Muslim, arab, afghan rulers by suppressing their ethnic Identity yet People in these countries are more proud of their identity of being arab, afghan and persian and consider others races as inferior lol look all these Afghan Iran and arab countries who have got better relationship with kufr countries (including our enemy India) than taking side of poor Muslim countries so political interests was more dear to them than their brothers



This current issue, you are talking about, has nothing to do with the reverence of Pakistani Muslims regarding certain historical Muslim conquerors and rulers, in which ethnicity has no role, whatsoever, and that deference is based solely upon a religious association. You are unnecessarily exporting the present sensitivities to the past.


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## takeiteasy

Taimur Khurram said:


> All of south India has been under Muslim rule, one way or another.


No way. Kerala for example. Tipu tried and failed.


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## Taimur Khurram

takeiteasy said:


> No way. Kerala for example. Tipu tried and failed.



Yes way


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## cringe master

there is only one way pakistan can progress. rewrite/ban pakistan studies and islamic studies till metric in syllabus and focus on character development and guidance of new students for integration in modern world instead of delusional propaganda and hateful content currently being taught in our schools. You won't have these type of discussions and next generation will be educated ,civilised ,sure of themself, prideful and not self haters and pakistan will progress by "leaps and bounds"

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## TheSeeker

Rusty said:


> @Taimur Khurram
> You sir are amazing. I have never seen such a beautiful take down of a science denying hindutva scum as you just showed.
> 
> Hindutva hateful ideology is based on "Hinduism is indigenous"
> The whole world knows that Hinduism came from the Indo-European invaders and so destroys Hindutva hateful ideology.
> 
> These Hindutva scum don't believe in science, remember how they brought up "vedic science" at an actual science conference?


Tell me a religion which is based on science.Those fairy tails(God,Heaven,Hell,Angel) BS crap that all believe are very childish.This just exposes the hypocrisy.


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## M. Sarmad

Muslimrenaissance said:


> there is only one way pakistan can progress. rewrite/ban pakistan studies and islamic studies till metric in syllabus and focus on character development and guidance of new students for integration in modern world instead of delusional propaganda and hateful content currently being taught in our schools. You won't have these type of discussions and next generation will be educated ,civilised ,sure of themself, prideful and not self haters and pakistan will progress by "leaps and bounds"



Agreed.... 
It's about time we abandoned state-sponsored, religious-chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion and moved along.

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## Rusty

TheSeeker said:


> Tell me a religion which is based on science.Those fairy tails(God,Heaven,Hell,Angel) BS crap that all believe are very childish.This just exposes the hypocrisy.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

No one commented on the validity of any religion. That is against the rules. 
commenting on it's origins however is a matter of facts. 
Christianity originated in Palestine by Jews, Islam Originated in Arabia by Arabs, and Hinduism originated in Paksitan by Aryan invaders. 

Those are just facts.

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## TheSeeker

Rusty said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
> 
> No one commented on the validity of any religion. That is against the rules.
> commenting on it's origins however is a matter of facts.
> Christianity originated in Palestine by Jews, Islam Originated in Arabia by Arabs, and Hinduism originated in Paksitan by Aryan invaders.
> 
> Those are just facts.


Though i dont associate myself to Hindu religion,All religions are just man made.It does not matter whether it Christian,Hindu ,Islam or Jews.someone claiming to me avatar of god or messiah or messenger and inventing the religion.That is the fact buddy.Those people(avatar of god or messiah or messenger) should be condemned and cursed and declared greatest frauds.

Peace.


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## Rusty

TheSeeker said:


> Though i dont associate myself to Hindu religion,All religions are just man made.It does not matter whether it Christian,Hindu ,Islam or Jews.someone claiming to me avatar of god or messiah or messenger and inventing the religion.That is the fact buddy.Those people(avatar of god or messiah or messenger) should be condemned and cursed and declared greatest frauds.
> 
> Peace.


you are clearly not smart enough to understand what is being said. 
India does not have a reputation for low IQ for no reason.


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## TheSeeker

Rusty said:


> you are clearly not smart enough to understand what is being said.
> India does not have a reputation for low IQ for no reason.


you are clearly not getting the point.i know the blind ideology has made you dumb.One has to be dumb enough to believe in fairy tails.I can understand.
Between Check out the CEO of Google,Microsoft,Adobe etc.only CEO that you have given are CEO of Haqqani,Jash-e Mohammaed,Laskar-e-Toiba etc.LMAO.We reached Mars and Moon and you dumbs are still trying to reach Kashmir and failed.


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## Rusty

TheSeeker said:


> you are clearly not getting the point.i know the blind ideology has made you dumb.One has to be dumb enough to believe in fairy tails.I can understand.
> Between Check out the CEO of Google,Microsoft,Adobe etc.only CEO that you have given are CEO of Haqqani,Jash-e Mohammaed,Laskar-e-Toiba etc.LMAO.We reached Mars and Moon and you dumbs are still trying to reach Kashmir and failed.


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## TheSeeker

Rusty said:


>


Got pissed off with the facts?LOL.


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