# A trilateral aimed at Pakistan



## pakistani342

Article here, excerpts below:

Afghanistan’s Ashraf Ghani government has come to recognize that Pakistan will not play ball in bringing stability to Afghanistan. The quadrilateral coordination group of Afghanistan, China, Pakistan and the US on Afghan peace and reconciliation failed to take the peace process further due to Pakistani intransigence. Now Kabul wants to fight it out with the backing of Washington and New Delhi. And the Narendra Modi government seems more than willing to lend a hand to a partner which is also facing hostility from Pakistan. This is in sync with its priorities at the moment to isolate Pakistan globally and regionally.

*The renewed trilateral engagement will work only if there is a sustained momentum towards deliverable outcomes. The Pakistani military-intelligence apparatus will do its best to scupper this initiative and will lash out in response to its growing marginalization. It will try to show its relevance by wreaking more havoc in Afghanistan and the region. The regional states should prepare for the worst even as they work towards a more coordinated response vis-à-vis Pakistan.*


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## wiseone2

pakistani342 said:


> Article here, excerpts below:
> 
> Afghanistan’s Ashraf Ghani government has come to recognize that Pakistan will not play ball in bringing stability to Afghanistan. The quadrilateral coordination group of Afghanistan, China, Pakistan and the US on Afghan peace and reconciliation failed to take the peace process further due to Pakistani intransigence. Now Kabul wants to fight it out with the backing of Washington and New Delhi. And the Narendra Modi government seems more than willing to lend a hand to a partner which is also facing hostility from Pakistan. This is in sync with its priorities at the moment to isolate Pakistan globally and regionally.
> 
> *The renewed trilateral engagement will work only if there is a sustained momentum towards deliverable outcomes. The Pakistani military-intelligence apparatus will do its best to scupper this initiative and will lash out in response to its growing marginalization. It will try to show its relevance by wreaking more havoc in Afghanistan and the region. The regional states should prepare for the worst even as they work towards a more coordinated response vis-à-vis Pakistan.*



Iran, Afghan and India initiative with respect to Chahbahar is more serious long term threat to Pakistan


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## pakistani342

wiseone2 said:


> Iran, Afghan and India initiative with respect to Chahbahar is more serious long term threat to Pakistan



mmm, Not so much I'd say, Chabahar:
1. is not a Natural deep sea port
2. to have any value for India it requires a stable Afghanistan
3. to have any value for Afghanistan it requires a stable Afghanistan
4. to have any value for Iran it requires Chabahar not to get lapped up in the India/Pak strategic competition
5. Iran will still need to use Dubai because it's not a natural deep sea port
6. The Delaram-Zaranj highway runs through the Taliban heartland 

There is a reason Iran sought China to help develop it first -- who wants to get caught in the vortex of petty Indian/Pakistani geopolitics.

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## wiseone2

pakistani342 said:


> mmm, Not so much I'd say, Chabahar:
> 1. is not a Natural deep sea port
> 2. to have any value for India it requires a stable Afghanistan
> 3. to have any value for Afghanistan it requires a stable Afghanistan
> 4. to have any value for Iran it requires Chabahar not to get lapped up in the India/Pak strategic competition
> 5. Iran will still need to use Dubai because it's not a natural deep sea port
> 6. The Delaram-Zaranj highway runs through the Taliban heartland
> 
> There is a reason Iran sought China to help develop it first -- who wants to get caught in the vortex of petty Indian/Pakistani geopolitics.



the purpose of Chahbahar is not massive amount of global trade. It is an alternate route to trade with Afghanistan.
Irrespective of India it is Iran's interest to have an independent Afghanistan free of Taliban and other pakistani proxies.


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## pakistani342

wiseone2 said:


> the purpose of Chahbahar is not massive amount of global trade. It is an alternate route to trade with Afghanistan.
> Irrespective of India it is Iran's interest to have an independent Afghanistan free of Taliban and other pakistani proxies.



Oh I forgot -- but I'm sure Iran (and Iranians are smart -- how the have Mollahs ruling them is a mystery) -- would not want to get wedged into the strategic competition between India and Pakistan -- further it still does not nullify the remaining points:

mmm, Not so much I'd say, Chabahar:
1. is not a Natural deep sea port
* -- OK you answered this -- the goals of Chabahar are rather limited -- ah well on this you win*
2. to have any value for India it requires a stable Afghanistan
 -- still open 
3. to have any value for Afghanistan it requires a stable Afghanistan
 -- still open 
4. to have any value for Iran it requires Chabahar not to get lapped up in the India/Pak strategic competition
 -- still open 
5. Iran will still need to use Dubai because it's not a natural deep sea port
* -- OK you answered this*
6. The Delaram-Zaranj highway runs through the Taliban heartland
 -- still open

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## wiseone2

pakistani342 said:


> Oh I forgot -- but I'm sure Iran (and Iranians are smart -- how the have Mollahs ruling them is a mystery) -- would not want to get wedged into the strategic competition between India and Pakistan -- further it still does not nullify the remaining points:
> 
> mmm, Not so much I'd say, Chabahar:
> 1. is not a Natural deep sea port
> * -- OK you answered this -- the goals of Chabahar are rather limited -- ah well on this you win*
> 2. to have any value for India it requires a stable Afghanistan
> -- still open
> 3. to have any value for Afghanistan it requires a stable Afghanistan
> -- still open
> 4. to have any value for Iran it requires Chabahar not to get lapped up in the India/Pak strategic competition
> -- still open
> 5. Iran will still need to use Dubai because it's not a natural deep sea port
> * -- OK you answered this*
> 6. The Delaram-Zaranj highway runs through the Taliban heartland
> -- still open


It is Iran's interest to have an Afghanistan independent of Pakistan control

No mention of india


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## coffee_cup

pakistani342 said:


> Article here, excerpts below:
> 
> Afghanistan’s Ashraf Ghani government has come to recognize that Pakistan will not play ball in bringing stability to Afghanistan. The quadrilateral coordination group of Afghanistan, China, Pakistan and the US on Afghan peace and reconciliation failed to take the peace process further due to Pakistani intransigence. Now Kabul wants to fight it out with the backing of Washington and New Delhi. And the Narendra Modi government seems more than willing to lend a hand to a partner which is also facing hostility from Pakistan. This is in sync with its priorities at the moment to isolate Pakistan globally and regionally.
> 
> *The renewed trilateral engagement will work only if there is a sustained momentum towards deliverable outcomes. The Pakistani military-intelligence apparatus will do its best to scupper this initiative and will lash out in response to its growing marginalization. It will try to show its relevance by wreaking more havoc in Afghanistan and the region. The regional states should prepare for the worst even as they work towards a more coordinated response vis-à-vis Pakistan.*



So are we expecting a Taliban office in New Delhi now?

Because the way Talibans are running amock, it doesn't seem like any durable peace is possible without first coming to terms with Taliban.


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## Max

wiseone2 said:


> Iran, Afghan and India initiative with respect to Chahbahar is more serious long term threat to Pakistan



who said its threat to Pakistan? Pakistan calculated every thing, it is principle founder of Chabahar saga, if Pakistan would have allowed Indian transit for Afghanistan there would be no chabahar today, but Pakistan despite knowing bharat and iran are in talks for chabahar since 90's rejected it anyways.


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## wiseone2

Max said:


> who said its threat to Pakistan? Pakistan calculated every thing, it is principle founder of Chabahar saga, if Pakistan would have allowed Indian transit for Afghanistan there would be no chabahar today, but Pakistan despite knowing bharat and iran are in talks for chabahar since 90's rejected it anyways.



Afghanistan independent of Pakistan is considered by Pakistani establishment to be a threat
Pakistani elite never expected the Chahbahar agreement


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## mdcp

There are too many divisions in Afghan govt. All mafias like Rasheed Dostam and their cheif executive nd other group will fight for their cruel agenda so why they blame on Pakistan.

Pkistan should block all borders with afghanistan cuz they are so ill thankful and traitors and let them rot amongst them. Taliban is the movement of Afghan people and they have deep support and it is not right to blame everything on Pakistan


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## Max

wiseone2 said:


> Afghanistan independent of Pakistan is considered by Pakistani establishment to be a threat
> Pakistani elite never expected the Chahbahar agreement



myth, it has nothing to do with reality, and yeah Pakistani officials are blind, they cant see Iran and bharat were in talks for chabahar.. only bharti trolls on PDF knows whats going on in Pakistani officials mind.


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## wiseone2

Max said:


> Myth..


there is rhetoric and there is actions

only interpretation of Pakistan actions is to keep Afghanistan embroiled in a civil war and to keep it weak


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## Max

wiseone2 said:


> only interpretation of Pakistan actions is to keep Afghanistan embroiled in a civil war and to keep it weak



It suits gangaland more, a destablize shithole is best playground against west Pakistan..


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## wiseone2

Max said:


> It suits gangaland more, a destablize shithole is best playground against west Pakistan..


someone in Rawalpindi came up with strategic depth


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## pakistani342

wiseone2 said:


> It is Iran's interest to have an Afghanistan independent of Pakistan control
> 
> No mention of india





wiseone2 said:


> It is Iran's interest to have an Afghanistan independent of Pakistan control
> 
> No mention of india



Very good point -- to answer the questions:

1. Imagine India did not exist -- where would that leave Iran and Pakistan: they not natural rivals, and actually have supported each other during crises.
2. Imagine would Iran want to get into hostility with its nuclear armed neighbor over far away India (?) -- the Mollahs are misogynistis but not stupid.

So again:

mmm, Not so much I'd say, Chabahar:
1. is not a Natural deep sea port
*-- OK you answered this -- the goals of Chabahar are rather limited *
2. to have any value for India it requires a stable Afghanistan
-- still open -- either Pakistan and Iran can keep Afghanistan unstable (Iran projects power all the way to Syria!!!)
3. to have any value for Afghanistan it requires a stable Afghanistan
-- still open -- either Pakistan and Iran can keep Afghanistan unstable (Iran projects power all the way to Syria!!!)
4. to have any value for Iran it requires Chabahar not to get lapped up in the India/Pak strategic competition
-- still open (the same way Pakistan chose not to participate in the Saudi vs Iran competition)
5. Iran will still need to use Dubai because it's not a natural deep sea port
*-- OK you answered this -- the goals of Chabahar are rather limited *
6. The Delaram-Zaranj highway runs through the Taliban heartland
-- still open -- either Pakistan and Iran can keep Afghanistan unstable (Iran projects power all the way to Syria!!!)

So where were we?


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## wiseone2

pakistani342 said:


> Very good point -- to answer the questions:
> 
> 1. Imagine India did not exist -- where would that leave Iran and Pakistan: they not natural rivals, and actually have supported each other during crises.
> 2. Imagine would Iran want to get into hostility with its nuclear armed neighbor over far away India (?) -- the Mollahs are misogynistis but not stupid.
> 
> So again:
> 
> mmm, Not so much I'd say, Chabahar:
> 1. is not a Natural deep sea port
> *-- OK you answered this -- the goals of Chabahar are rather limited *
> 2. to have any value for India it requires a stable Afghanistan
> -- still open -- either Pakistan and Iran can keep Afghanistan unstable (Iran projects power all the way to Syria!!!)
> 3. to have any value for Afghanistan it requires a stable Afghanistan
> -- still open -- either Pakistan and Iran can keep Afghanistan unstable (Iran projects power all the way to Syria!!!)
> 4. to have any value for Iran it requires Chabahar not to get lapped up in the India/Pak strategic competition
> -- still open (the same way Pakistan chose not to participate in the Saudi vs Iran competition)
> 5. Iran will still need to use Dubai because it's not a natural deep sea port
> *-- OK you answered this -- the goals of Chabahar are rather limited *
> 6. The Delaram-Zaranj highway runs through the Taliban heartland
> -- still open -- either Pakistan and Iran can keep Afghanistan unstable (Iran projects power all the way to Syria!!!)
> 
> So where were we?



What makes you think Iran and Pakistan are not rivals in Central Asia ? To the degree you do not see an active rivalry it is due to the fact both of them have bigger rivals to fight.


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## pakistani342

wiseone2 said:


> What makes you think Iran and Pakistan are not rivals in Central Asia ? To the degree you do not see an active rivalry it is due to the fact both of them have bigger rivals to fight.



True ... but not to the extent of say India/Pak or Indian/China

Remember Iran/Pakistan once considered a confederation (like structure) with Turkey.

Another way to think about it is: whether the boys sitting in GHQ would **feel** the same towards Iran as they do towards India. 

.

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## Leviza

When was the last time Afghanistan handed over any hiding TTP members to Pakistan ? never ...

Afghanistan always provoked firing on the international border and we had to shut it down

Afghanistan, wants Pakistan to help her in all possible ways but let indians have 17 or 18 consulates on its border which creates alot of problems in Pakistan ? did Afghan gov took any actions NO

Afghan people and gov need to understand, Pakistan can work with them but they have to deliver as well ...


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## wiseone2

pakistani342 said:


> True ... but not to the extent of say India/Pak or Indian/China
> 
> Remember Iran/Pakistan once considered a confederation (like structure) with Turkey.
> 
> Another way to think about it is: whether the boys sitting in GHQ would **feel** the same towards Iran as they do towards India.
> 
> .



it is not just pakistan. also iran is more interested in challenging saudi arabia


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## pakistani342

wiseone2 said:


> it is not just pakistan. also iran is more interested in challenging saudi arabia



Yes but that does not translate into a 1-on-1 rivalry with Pakistan as in India/Pakistan or even India/China. The boys in GHQ (like most Pakistanis, that includes Sunnis) view Iran through rose colored (and naive) glasses.

The Iran/Pakistan equation can be compared to Iran/Turkey -- competitors -- uneasy neighbors sometimes, but there is no civilizational issue between the two peoples.

Although the affinity that Pakistanis feel for Iran is not reciprocated by Iranians -- there is no visceral hostility amongst Iranians for Pakistanis and vice-a-versa.

If you want to compare symbols: There are no equivalents of: RSS, Indus river water treaty, partition riots, 1971, Kashmir, Modi, Gujrat Riots for the Pakistani people in Iran. And the reverse is also true.

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## The Accountant

wiseone2 said:


> the purpose of Chahbahar is not massive amount of global trade. It is an alternate route to trade with Afghanistan.
> Irrespective of India it is Iran's interest to have an independent Afghanistan free of Taliban and other pakistani proxies.


Reality check... Taliban are not pak's proxy ... They were gov before invasion.... Afghani taliban are local tribal leaders who control most of afghanistan ...


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## wiseone2

The Accountant said:


> Reality check... Taliban are not pak's proxy ... They were gov before invasion.... Afghani taliban are local tribal leaders who control most of afghanistan ...



yeah sure. what is next ? sun rises in the west.


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## The Accountant

wiseone2 said:


> yeah sure. what is next ? sun rises in the west.


Hahahaha ... So instead of presenting any argument ... Just this BS reply ... What part was wrong ? Afghan gov of taliban ? Tribal leaders ? Or contol of afghanistan ? All these are realities ... There are two political forces in afghanistan one is northern alliance other is taliban ...


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## wiseone2

The Accountant said:


> Hahahaha ... So instead of presenting any argument ... Just this BS reply ... What part was wrong ? Afghan gov of taliban ? Tribal leaders ? Or contol of afghanistan ? All these are realities ... There are two political forces in afghanistan one is northern alliance other is taliban ...


The taliban is pakistan's horse in the struggle to control afghanistan


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## The Accountant

wiseone2 said:


> The taliban is pakistan's horse in the struggle to control afghanistan


Kindlyy check history ... Afghan and afghani people were never been conquered or ruled by others ... Russians tried they failed misserably ... No bodyy could force taliban on afghanistan if original people of land do not accept ... Its a highlyy tribal society ... Only tribal leaders can rule its people .. Thats whyg current gov is incapable to holds its ground other than Kabul ... Deep inside local people want taliban rules ... Why ? Because of these well documented facts :

1 during taliban erra opmium production reduced near to zero .
2 Crime rates came to almost 0
3 unlike powerful belief spread by western media taliban government constitutes of various ethinic and religious factions which includes non.pakhtons and non wahabis 
4 taliban were implementing true islamic law which is demand of people of the land ...

These are documented facts you can do some research on these ...


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## wiseone2

The Accountant said:


> Kindlyy check history ... Afghan and afghani people were never been conquered or ruled by others ... Russians tried they failed misserably ... No bodyy could force taliban on afghanistan if original people of land do not accept ... Its a highlyy tribal society ... Only tribal leaders can rule its people .. Thats whyg current gov is incapable to holds its ground other than Kabul ... Deep inside local people want taliban rules ... Why ? Because of these well documented facts :
> 
> 1 during taliban erra opmium production reduced near to zero .
> 2 Crime rates came to almost 0
> 3 unlike powerful belief spread by western media taliban government constitutes of various ethinic and religious factions which includes non.pakhtons and non wahabis
> 4 taliban were implementing true islamic law which is demand of people of the land ...
> 
> These are documented facts you can do some research on these ...



1 and 2 are irrelevant. If you are trying to prove the Taliban is good no one is buying it. I will repeat Pakistan, UAE and Saudi Arabia were the only ones who recognized them.

Taliban was universally hated by non-Pusthun groups. If they were so popular how come USA destroyed them with air power and 500 soldiers

"true islamic law" - it is an oxymoron


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## The Accountant

wiseone2 said:


> 1 and 2 are irrelevant. If you are trying to prove the Taliban is good no one is buying it. I will repeat Pakistan, UAE and Saudi Arabia were the only ones who recognized them.
> 
> Taliban was universally hated by non-Pusthun groups. If they were so popular how come USA destroyed them with air power and 500 soldiers
> 
> "true islamic law" - it is an oxymoron


Sir if start giving reasons why western world on communists hate them you will say i am a conspiracy theorist ... Lets skip that part and we remain stuck to material argument ...

1. Nobody recognize them because there basis were of islamic governemnt and not based on western ideology ... However, its nkt about others... Its about whether people of afghanistan recognizes them ... People of afghan love them and evidence is point 1 and 2.

2 Sir are you sure taliban are destroyed ? Taliban control half of afhhanistan ...

3 can you please care to explain how a force without anyy airforce could survive against daisy cutters ?

4 for example in iraq baaz part of saddam hussain is no where in the scene ... They dont even retaliate despite of having powerful armyy ... Afghanistan did not had even a regular army ...

If for the sake of argument taliban dont have local support and are just paks proxy hiw the hell in the world they survive such humongous attacks for 15 years ... Galiban at best could be10k fighter ... Casualities in afghan taliban are much higher in numbers ... Still they survive

Take example of pakistani taliban ... They did not had support of locals on ground ... They Re bunch of drug lords who want power ... Just one operatio and they are out of Pakistan ... Reason being they were ochpiers ... Thats not the case of afghani taliban .. Local support them...

Do you even know how taliban gets created ? Why there name is taliban ? And how mullah omer became their chief ?

I would agai say being senior member its your responsibility to being imlartial as much as you can and try to find out realities by reading research not just blind follower of popular belief ...


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## wiseone2

The Accountant said:


> Sir if start giving reasons why western world on communists hate them you will say i am a conspiracy theorist ... Lets skip that part and we remain stuck to material argument ...
> 
> 1. Nobody recognize them because there basis were of islamic governemnt and not based on western ideology ... However, its nkt about others... Its about whether people of afghanistan recognizes them ... People of afghan love them and evidence is point 1 and 2.
> 
> 2 Sir are you sure taliban are destroyed ? Taliban control half of afhhanistan ...
> 
> 3 can you please care to explain how a force without anyy airforce could survive against daisy cutters ?
> 
> 4 for example in iraq baaz part of saddam hussain is no where in the scene ... They dont even retaliate despite of having powerful armyy ... Afghanistan did not had even a regular army ...
> 
> If for the sake of argument taliban dont have local support and are just paks proxy hiw the hell in the world they survive such humongous attacks for 15 years ... Galiban at best could be10k fighter ... Casualities in afghan taliban are much higher in numbers ... Still they survive
> 
> Take example of pakistani taliban ... They did not had support of locals on ground ... They Re bunch of drug lords who want power ... Just one operatio and they are out of Pakistan ... Reason being they were ochpiers ... Thats not the case of afghani taliban .. Local support them...
> 
> Do you even know how taliban gets created ? Why there name is taliban ? And how mullah omer became their chief ?
> 
> I would agai say being senior member its your responsibility to being imlartial as much as you can and try to find out realities by reading research not just blind follower of popular belief ...



There are 57 Muslim states. The 3 states that recognized them are Saudi Arabia, UAE and Pakistan. They had geo-political reasons for their decision to support the Taliban. Even countries you court - Russia, China, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh refused to deal with the Taliban

How do you lose to an army of less than 500 soldiers ??


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## The Accountant

wiseone2 said:


> There are 57 Muslim states. The 3 states that recognized them are Saudi Arabia, UAE and Pakistan. They had geo-political reasons for their decision to support the Taliban. Even countries you court - Russia, China, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh refused to deal with the Taliban
> 
> How do you lose to an army of less than 500 soldiers ??


Bro again ? Does it matter that whether external sources recognize them or not ?

Question whether people of afghanistan recognizes them and accept them as their leaders ? Just answere this question based on fact rather than opinion ...

Second how couil russia and its ally china coukd recgnize taliban when taliban were the reasons of destructio of soviet union ?

What 57 islamic countries are you talking about ? Is there a single country having balls to accept taliban against will of USA and Russia ? Government of muslim countries including pak are nothing but rubber stamp of either USA or Russia ...

How to loose ... Just remove your airforce from india and let pakistan bring daisy cutters which will suck the oxygen of several km area and let us do carpet bombing on cncentrated areas of indian army ... Can you please let me know how will indian army survive with such attack ?

I bet only Pakistan air force will be enough to destrog whole indian army within days 

Afghans were not even regular army ...

Plus if they had been defeated hiw the hell after 15 years if continous carpet bombing they still control half if afghan ?


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