# Pakistan-Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector - Press Release



## Sulman Badshah

*Pakistan-Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector - Press Release*

* MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION*

*OFFICE OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR (MEDIA)*

*PRESS RELEASE*

*Pakistan –Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector*



Pakistan and Turkey are having three important deals in defence production sector. Both countries are going to finalize deal for Super Mushshak .*This deal is in last stages of finalization and is going to be signed very soon. *It is a great development on part of Ministry Of Defence Production. *Turkey is going to buy quite big number of Super Mushshak from Pakistan*. This deal will strengthen ties between two brotherly countries and will result in huge foreign exchange for Pakistan. The deal is a great achievement for PAC Kamra. Prime Minister Muhammad Sharif took keen interest in the deal and the success is the result of excellent team work of MoDP , under its Federal Minister Rana Tanveer Hussain, PAF and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.


Apart from sale of Super Mashshak, development of Fleet Tanker by KSEW, in collaboration with Turkey, is another example of close relationship in the field of defence production between the two countries. In August 2016 inauguration ceremony for handing over of Fleet Tanker from KSEW to Pakistan Navy is being planned. Highest dignitaries from both countries are expected to attend the inauguration ceremony.


MoDP Pakistan had already signed a contract for Mid Life Up-gradation of existing Agosta class submarine with a Turkish firm STM Savunma Teknoljileri Muhendislik ve Ticaret. It is an important defence project that will go a long way in enhancing the operational capabilities of existing submarine of Pakistan Navy besides further strengthening the defence ties among two brotherly countries.

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## Areesh

Nothing about ADA class corvettes


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## Windjammer

Number of super Mushshak is quoted by other sources as 52 aircraft.

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## GoldenRatio1618

Good for both Muslims Brotherly countries to concentrate on each expertise so that both gain and grow towards self reliance by taking big steps and enhancing defense cooperation and sharing weapons technologies.

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## RAMPAGE

Mashallah!

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Pakistan-Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector - Press Release*
> 
> * MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION*
> 
> *OFFICE OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR (MEDIA)*
> 
> *PRESS RELEASE*
> 
> *Pakistan –Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector*
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan and Turkey are having three important deals in defence production sector. Both countries are going to finalize deal for Super Mushshak .*This deal is in last stages of finalization and is going to be signed very soon. *It is a great development on part of Ministry Of Defence Production. *Turkey is going to buy quite big number of Super Mushshak from Pakistan*. This deal will strengthen ties between two brotherly countries and will result in huge foreign exchange for Pakistan. The deal is a great achievement for PAC Kamra. Prime Minister Muhammad Sharif took keen interest in the deal and the success is the result of excellent team work of MoDP , under its Federal Minister Rana Tanveer Hussain, PAF and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.
> 
> 
> Apart from sale of Super Mashshak, development of Fleet Tanker by KSEW, in collaboration with Turkey, is another example of close relationship in the field of defence production between the two countries. In August 2016 inauguration ceremony for handing over of Fleet Tanker from KSEW to Pakistan Navy is being planned. Highest dignitaries from both countries are expected to attend the inauguration ceremony.
> 
> 
> MoDP Pakistan had already signed a contract for Mid Life Up-gradation of existing Agosta class submarine with a Turkish firm STM Savunma Teknoljileri Muhendislik ve Ticaret. It is an important defence project that will go a long way in enhancing the operational capabilities of existing submarine of Pakistan Navy besides further strengthening the defence ties among two brotherly countries.




Mashallah, may this always continue. Turkey 
and Pakistan are brothers and sisters.

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## RAMPAGE

Areesh said:


> Nothing about ADA class corvettes


That would be the third deal and possibly linked with the Mushak deal.

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Pakistan-Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector - Press Release*
> 
> * MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION*
> 
> *OFFICE OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR (MEDIA)*
> 
> *PRESS RELEASE*
> 
> *Pakistan –Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector*
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan and Turkey are having three important deals in defence production sector. Both countries are going to finalize deal for Super Mushshak .*This deal is in last stages of finalization and is going to be signed very soon. *It is a great development on part of Ministry Of Defence Production. *Turkey is going to buy quite big number of Super Mushshak from Pakistan*. This deal will strengthen ties between two brotherly countries and will result in huge foreign exchange for Pakistan. The deal is a great achievement for PAC Kamra. Prime Minister Muhammad Sharif took keen interest in the deal and the success is the result of excellent team work of MoDP , under its Federal Minister Rana Tanveer Hussain, PAF and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.
> 
> 
> Apart from sale of Super Mashshak, development of Fleet Tanker by KSEW, in collaboration with Turkey, is another example of close relationship in the field of defence production between the two countries. In August 2016 inauguration ceremony for handing over of Fleet Tanker from KSEW to Pakistan Navy is being planned. Highest dignitaries from both countries are expected to attend the inauguration ceremony.
> 
> 
> MoDP Pakistan had already signed a contract for Mid Life Up-gradation of existing Agosta class submarine with a Turkish firm STM Savunma Teknoljileri Muhendislik ve Ticaret. It is an important defence project that will go a long way in enhancing the operational capabilities of existing submarine of Pakistan Navy besides further strengthening the defence ties among two brotherly countries.


This is 5th thread on exactly same news. On deals mentioned only Super Musak is new others signed already

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## WaLeEdK2

Air defence and navy should acquire some Turkish weaponry. All the best.

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## jamal18

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Mashallah, may this always continue. Turkey
> and Pakistan are brothers and sisters.



Which one is the sister?


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## muhammadali233

jamal18 said:


> Which one is the sister?


is that a bad thing?You people sickin me.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

FETO terrorists attacks were conducted to exactly prevent any such news. _KADER_ has put Turkey and Pak in the same boiling pot with_ hulu-hulu_ dances by the savages around it. Who are you to talk about ATAK or ADA or ALTAY?? You're supposed to be skinny beggars with a bowl looking with shock and awe to the majestic Royals. If they give you some alms you're supposed to feel it divine...

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## Ghazwa e Hind

The only brother we have in Muslim World! Hail Ottomans

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## Paksanity

This is just the start.

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## Muhammad Omar

T-129 For sure 
any chances of Altay and Hisar missiles

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## Green Angel

*Congratulations to ... PAKISTAN & TURKEY.*.

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## Taimoor Khan

This all could have come to nothing had the rebels succeed in their designs with that Gulen chap sitting in uncle Sam pulling strings on the orders of America. The main reasons Indians were rejoicing this coup.

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## Thorough Pro

a news before the event is a rumor, such statements look good after the deals have actually been signed.


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## Super Falcon

Hope PN get better chunk of deals from Turkey

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## anatolia

i hope we can make something together in the future..i hope Pakistan and Turkey brains stay in their country...we say there isno chance to creat good place for our people if every good person leave the place.we have to stay in oour country to improve it for our future

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## X-2.

Sulman Badshah said:


> *Pakistan-Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector - Press Release*
> 
> * MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION*
> 
> *OFFICE OF ASSISTANT DIRECTOR (MEDIA)*
> 
> *PRESS RELEASE*
> 
> *Pakistan –Turkey Going To Have Massive Deals In Defence Production Sector*
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan and Turkey are having three important deals in defence production sector. Both countries are going to finalize deal for Super Mushshak .*This deal is in last stages of finalization and is going to be signed very soon. *It is a great development on part of Ministry Of Defence Production. *Turkey is going to buy quite big number of Super Mushshak from Pakistan*. This deal will strengthen ties between two brotherly countries and will result in huge foreign exchange for Pakistan. The deal is a great achievement for PAC Kamra. Prime Minister Muhammad Sharif took keen interest in the deal and the success is the result of excellent team work of MoDP , under its Federal Minister Rana Tanveer Hussain, PAF and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.
> 
> 
> Apart from sale of Super Mashshak, development of Fleet Tanker by KSEW, in collaboration with Turkey, is another example of close relationship in the field of defence production between the two countries. In August 2016 inauguration ceremony for handing over of Fleet Tanker from KSEW to Pakistan Navy is being planned. Highest dignitaries from both countries are expected to attend the inauguration ceremony.
> 
> 
> MoDP Pakistan had already signed a contract for Mid Life Up-gradation of existing Agosta class submarine with a Turkish firm STM Savunma Teknoljileri Muhendislik ve Ticaret. It is an important defence project that will go a long way in enhancing the operational capabilities of existing submarine of Pakistan Navy besides further strengthening the defence ties among two brotherly countries.


Great ..even aseloods as wl as looking fwd to other stuff


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## Imtiaz_Sarwar

Pakistan and Turkey are natural potential strategic partners with a lot of mutual interests. so we should take our friendship to strategic level.


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## Suff Shikan

I hope these deals will materialize and will more strengthen Pak turk relations


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Still good news


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> This is 5th thread on exactly same news. On deals mentioned only Super Musak is new others signed already


This one is a official press release from Ministry of defence purchase


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> This one is a official press release from Ministry of defence purchase


And they have done a disastrous job. The Tanker they are talking about are completed and will be soon launched in a ceremony and deal for submarine up gradation was signed a month ago the only deal which is not signed in Super Mushak. Although I am hoping they are referring to T-129 and also ADA class corvettes deal but this press release is not making me very optimistic.


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## shah1398

Anxiously waiting for a joint project in field of tactical communication/radio and cryptography. Turkey has quite good experience in these fields esp Cryptography.

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## Arsalan

Windjammer said:


> Number of super Mushshak is quoted by other sources as 52 aircraft.


yup, the news reports on the day it was made public was giving the number at 30 but otherwise if one study the original Turkish requirement and news about it then the number stood at 52 and i hope we did managed to secure the complete order. I am not sure if Turkey will opt for 30 Mushaq's and then but 20-24 other platform. Lets wait and see,

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## Syed_Adeel

jamal18 said:


> Which one is the sister?


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## graphican

I always cherish Pakistan-Turkey relationship. Even our flags resemble a lot.

On a side note, look at this statement from Niamat Allah Shah Wali when he predicted "GhazwatulHind".

"Pakistan, Iran and Turkey will be on one side."

The equation of supporters and allies of Pakistan is almost linear. Turkey has came many steps forward and has embrace Pakistan as one of its military allies. Iran is otherwise neutral but in both battles, Iran has supported Pakistan on both wars against India more than we expected.

5 years ago, I used to wander why Arabs and Bangladeshis are never mentioned in foretelling as allies of Pakistan against India but in 2016, this is very clear why.

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## Quwa

Areesh said:


> Nothing about ADA class corvettes


That's dependent on Turkey releasing a $400m loan - not sure if that is going to happen soon considering recent events in the country (e.g. short-term economic volatility).


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## I S I

Great.


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## fatman17

turkey will get ToT for the mushshaks and build them at TAI

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## OrionHunter

What are these three deals with Turkey worth in dollars?


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## graphican

fatman17 said:


> turkey will get ToT for the mushshaks and build them at TAI



And what are we getting with TOT from Turkey?  T-129?


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## tarrar

Because of recent & on going problems in Turkey, Pakistan should now evaluate the new MI28 NM & keep their options open. I am sure the new Russian MI28 NM has a lot to offer & Pakistan should run a trial on them to.

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## cabatli_53

Quwa said:


> That's dependent on Turkey releasing a $400m loan - not sure if that is going to happen soon considering recent events in the country (e.g. short-term economic volatility).




According to official info received by a member:

-Turkey will give 350 million Euro for 4 Milgem corvette.
-20 more MPT-76 assault rifle will be sent to Pakistan for summer trials. Winter trials (with 10 MPT-76) have passed successfully.

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## Path-Finder

cabatli_53 said:


> According to official info received by a member:
> 
> -Turkey will give 350 million Euro for 4 Milgem corvette.
> -20 more MPT-76 assault rifle will be sent to Pakistan for summer trials. Winter trials (with 10 MPT-76) have passed successfully.


@Zarvan something that might give you indigestion


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> @Zarvan something that might give you indigestion


The picture I shared included MPT-76. The Gun on extreme right was MPT-76 now as for ADA class corvettes that is good news but I am hoping that Pakistan also becomes partner in Istanbul class Frigates and TF-2000 Class Frigates. MPT-76 is good Gun but doesn't match performance of SCAR no Gun is coming close to SCAR in performance that is the issue

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## nadeemkhan110

Jul 25, 2016 Bilal Khan -
*PAKISTAN & TURKEY HAVE MAJOR DEFENCE PROGRAMS IN THE PIPELINE*
According to a recent press release by Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP), Turkey and Pakistan have three “massive” defence deals in the pipeline.

Upon inking a deal to buy an unspecified number of Super Mushshak basic flight trainers from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Pakistan’s MoDP announced that Turkey will in fact acquire a relatively large number of Super Mushshak aircraft.

In addition, the MoDP also noted the contract it had awarded to Turkey’s STM for upgrading the Pakistan Navy’s three Agosta 90B submarines, which presently form the core of the Navy’s submarine fleet. STM was selected over France’s DCNS on the basis of a “technically and commercially superior” package, even though it was originally DCNS that had designed and built the Agosta 90B submarines.

The two sides will also celebrate the handing over of the Fleet Tanker to the Pakistan Navy. Designed by STM and produced at Karachi Shipyards and Engineering Works (with kits from Turkey), the Fleet Tanker displaces 15,600 tons and is capable of travelling at 20 knots.

*Comment and Analysis*

Turkey is a major supplier of defence hardware to Pakistan. In fact, with the exception of China, Turkey may emerge as the biggest supplier and source of advanced military technology. Besides armament sales (see background section below), the space for potential collaboration in technology development and commercial work could be a worthwhile avenue for both parties.

While Turkey’s Anadolu Agency reported that Pakistan was interested in the Turkish TFX next-generation fighter program (see: _Is Pakistan interested in the Turkish TFX?_), this idea is far from being a real prospect. However, there are two Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) programs immediately available to Pakistan and worth considering – the TAI Anka unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and Hürkuş turboprop trainer.

TAI has been comfortable with the idea of engaging with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). For example, TAI had contracted some work for the Anka unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) to PAC, even though the Anka has not been inducted by Pakistan. Although Pakistan may be more inclined towards Chinese UAV designs (see: _Crashed UAV in Pakistan was undergoing flight tests__)_, there may be room for interesting work in the area of the Hürkuş.

Above all, the feasibility of such an avenue would depend on the PAF’s requirements, namely if it accepts the value of adopting a turboprop design such as the Hürkuş to replace the T-37 Tweet, which forms the backbone of its basic fighter trainer fleet. While this is a discussion of its own, the main rationale behind using new turboprop designs in lieu of legacy jets for training is that the performance of the turboprops is not far behind from older jets. However, by virtue of their low-powered engines, turboprops are much cheaper to fly and maintain.

Should the PAF embrace this model, it would acquire a large number of Hürkuş to replace its T-37s, and in turn, locally manufacture the aircraft under license. However, the program could grow in scope should TAI and PAC decide to co-market and co-manufacture the Hürkuş for the wider market. Irrespective of the value of the turboprop training model, there is no doubt at this stage that turboprop platforms are being adopted by major and minor air forces alike across Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Asia.

If TAI completes the development of the armed Hürkuş-C, which could be used as a counterinsurgency (COIN) close air support (CAS) platform akin to the Embraer A-29 Super Tucano, then the potential market for the Hürkuş is large. Granted, it could cut into the sales of JF-17, which also aims for the low-end fighter market, but in either scenario, PAC would be a beneficiary (as opposed to Embraer or another company). If the Hürkuş succeeds, then PAC could be involved in parts manufacturing and long-term support work.

This is a hypothetical example (albeit one TAI might be interested in seeing through in reality), but there are scarcely few prospective partners for commercial collaboration available to Pakistan. Collaboration of this nature need be restricted to the Hürkuş, it could happen in other applications instead, e.g. armoured vehicles, artillery, communications, electronic warfare and electronic countermeasures, etc.

It will be worth seeing if Turkey actively and passive imparts industry and technology development lessons onto Pakistan, which could have a strong impact on the latter, especially since it is exploring its options for growth (see:_Indigenization will be critical to Pakistan’s next-generation fighter_).

_Background_

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) was responsible for implementing the Mid-Life Update onto the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)’s F-16A/B Block-15 aircraft in the late 2000s and early 2010s. The PAF will also procure 16 Aselsan ASELPOD advanced targeting pods, which will be integrated to the JF-17 Thunder. The PAF is currently in touch with TAI over the prospect of upgrading another batch of F-16A/Bs, likely the used units acquired from Jordan.

The Pakistan Navy is also interested in acquiring four MILGEM corvettes, though this purchase will depend on Turkey releasing a $400 million U.S. loan, which may be unlikely at this time given recent events (i.e. the coup attempt and Turkey’s short-term volatility). That said, with the Agosta 90B upgrade, STM Fleet Tanker and MRTP-15/33 fast attack crafts in mind, there is little doubt that the prospect for naval and maritime cooperation is immense between the Pakistan Navy and the Turkish defence industry.

Meanwhile, upon the completion of the TAI T-129’s trials in Pakistan, it appears that the Pakistan Army is interested in pursuing the dedicated attack helicopter. At this year’s Farnborough Air Show in the U.K., a Pakistan Army delegation met with TAI officials to discuss how the T-129 could be tailored for the Army’s needs. In the coming months, a Pakistani delegation will also observe the qualification tests of the Roketsan Mizrak-U anti-tank guided missile from the T-129.

source; http://quwa.org/2016/07/25/pakistan-turkey-major-defence-programs-pipeline/

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## cabatli_53

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Jul 25, 2016 Bilal Khan -
> *PAKISTAN & TURKEY HAVE MAJOR DEFENCE PROGRAMS IN THE PIPELINE*
> According to a recent press release by Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP), Turkey and Pakistan have three “massive” defence deals in the pipeline.
> 
> Upon inking a deal to buy an unspecified number of Super Mushshak basic flight trainers from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Pakistan’s MoDP announced that Turkey will in fact acquire a relatively large number of Super Mushshak aircraft.
> 
> In addition, the MoDP also noted the contract it had awarded to Turkey’s STM for upgrading the Pakistan Navy’s three Agosta 90B submarines, which presently form the core of the Navy’s submarine fleet. STM was selected over France’s DCNS on the basis of a “technically and commercially superior” package, even though it was originally DCNS that had designed and built the Agosta 90B submarines.
> 
> The two sides will also celebrate the handing over of the Fleet Tanker to the Pakistan Navy. Designed by STM and produced at Karachi Shipyards and Engineering Works (with kits from Turkey), the Fleet Tanker displaces 15,600 tons and is capable of travelling at 20 knots.
> 
> *Comment and Analysis*
> 
> Turkey is a major supplier of defence hardware to Pakistan. In fact, with the exception of China, Turkey may emerge as the biggest supplier and source of advanced military technology. Besides armament sales (see background section below), the space for potential collaboration in technology development and commercial work could be a worthwhile avenue for both parties.
> 
> While Turkey’s Anadolu Agency reported that Pakistan was interested in the Turkish TFX next-generation fighter program (see: _Is Pakistan interested in the Turkish TFX?_), this idea is far from being a real prospect. However, there are two Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) programs immediately available to Pakistan and worth considering – the TAI Anka unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and Hürkuş turboprop trainer.
> 
> TAI has been comfortable with the idea of engaging with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). For example, TAI had contracted some work for the Anka unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) to PAC, even though the Anka has not been inducted by Pakistan. Although Pakistan may be more inclined towards Chinese UAV designs (see: _Crashed UAV in Pakistan was undergoing flight tests__)_, there may be room for interesting work in the area of the Hürkuş.
> 
> Above all, the feasibility of such an avenue would depend on the PAF’s requirements, namely if it accepts the value of adopting a turboprop design such as the Hürkuş to replace the T-37 Tweet, which forms the backbone of its basic fighter trainer fleet. While this is a discussion of its own, the main rationale behind using new turboprop designs in lieu of legacy jets for training is that the performance of the turboprops is not far behind from older jets. However, by virtue of their low-powered engines, turboprops are much cheaper to fly and maintain.
> 
> Should the PAF embrace this model, it would acquire a large number of Hürkuş to replace its T-37s, and in turn, locally manufacture the aircraft under license. However, the program could grow in scope should TAI and PAC decide to co-market and co-manufacture the Hürkuş for the wider market. Irrespective of the value of the turboprop training model, there is no doubt at this stage that turboprop platforms are being adopted by major and minor air forces alike across Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Asia.
> 
> If TAI completes the development of the armed Hürkuş-C, which could be used as a counterinsurgency (COIN) close air support (CAS) platform akin to the Embraer A-29 Super Tucano, then the potential market for the Hürkuş is large. Granted, it could cut into the sales of JF-17, which also aims for the low-end fighter market, but in either scenario, PAC would be a beneficiary (as opposed to Embraer or another company). If the Hürkuş succeeds, then PAC could be involved in parts manufacturing and long-term support work.
> 
> This is a hypothetical example (albeit one TAI might be interested in seeing through in reality), but there are scarcely few prospective partners for commercial collaboration available to Pakistan. Collaboration of this nature need be restricted to the Hürkuş, it could happen in other applications instead, e.g. armoured vehicles, artillery, communications, electronic warfare and electronic countermeasures, etc.
> 
> It will be worth seeing if Turkey actively and passive imparts industry and technology development lessons onto Pakistan, which could have a strong impact on the latter, especially since it is exploring its options for growth (see:_Indigenization will be critical to Pakistan’s next-generation fighter_).
> 
> _Background_
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) was responsible for implementing the Mid-Life Update onto the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)’s F-16A/B Block-15 aircraft in the late 2000s and early 2010s. The PAF will also procure 16 Aselsan ASELPOD advanced targeting pods, which will be integrated to the JF-17 Thunder. The PAF is currently in touch with TAI over the prospect of upgrading another batch of F-16A/Bs, likely the used units acquired from Jordan.
> 
> The Pakistan Navy is also interested in acquiring four MILGEM corvettes, though this purchase will depend on Turkey releasing a $400 million U.S. loan, which may be unlikely at this time given recent events (i.e. the coup attempt and Turkey’s short-term volatility). That said, with the Agosta 90B upgrade, STM Fleet Tanker and MRTP-15/33 fast attack crafts in mind, there is little doubt that the prospect for naval and maritime cooperation is immense between the Pakistan Navy and the Turkish defence industry.
> 
> Meanwhile, upon the completion of the TAI T-129’s trials in Pakistan, it appears that the Pakistan Army is interested in pursuing the dedicated attack helicopter. At this year’s Farnborough Air Show in the U.K., a Pakistan Army delegation met with TAI officials to discuss how the T-129 could be tailored for the Army’s needs. In the coming months, a Pakistani delegation will also observe the qualification tests of the Roketsan Mizrak-U anti-tank guided missile from the T-129.
> 
> source; http://quwa.org/2016/07/25/pakistan-turkey-major-defence-programs-pipeline/




The countries having strong SAM batteries are the one enemy air forces can't even dare to enter into territories that is protected by them. Strong methods and tactics are being generated to eliminate related SAM batteries' effectiveness. The advanced countries are pouring money for high cost electronic warfare sensors and jammers but No tech can guarantee the %100 survival against those things If they are advanced enough so The critical core technologies of SAM system that was charged to protect own Republic, must be inside of your engineers' hands to apply state of art new technologies to counter the latest posed threats. Otherwise, We don't have much chance to protect own lands with foreign SAM missiles that was developed by foreign hands & brains whose critical components are solely belong to them. They know the deficiency of their own system so continuously upgrading them, While exporting downgraded variants to other countries. When you required new upgrades, They want hundreds of million $.

so It is a must for the states like Turkey, Pakistan to develop own SAM missile family. We SHOULD cooperate on such critical defensive systems to establish a networked missile umbrella whose keys/switches are solely belong to us. Otherwise, If you go to a war with systems that was developed by the states supporting illegal terrorist establishments inside of Turkish army firing own parliament/buildings/people, and expressing their sadness for failed coup attempt of those terrorists, discussing the put Turkey out of NATO, Then It is clear for me that The day when We sign a deal to purchase such critical systems developed by those states, is the day when we signed the agreement of our own collapse. We should benefit from them as much as we can but It is proved again that Trusting those dogs must be the last thing We should do If You are out of their religious camp but Such activities just serve to increase our ambitious more and more. They will learn that They can't control the rise of Turkish industry from outside. They can't pose an open embargo but trying to hit below belt. We will tell the consequences of banning to hold the Turkish flag in some European countries after failed coup attempt, While PKK terrorist supporters are beating Turks, raising illegal terrorist flags. When they understood that PKK in S. East can't divide Turkey into pieces and lost around 7000 militants within 1 year, They activated their plan B inside of Turkish Army to open the way for PKK. We just need time&hard working !

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Path-Finder said:


> @Zarvan something that might give you indigestion

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## cabatli_53

Here is a big official family of domestic SAM system named Hisar:

-Hisar MANPADS VSHORAD: 4km altitude, 6km range (replacement for stinger)

-Hisar-A low altitude, 10 Km altitude 16 Km+ range, IIR guidance

-Hisar-O Medium altitude, 15 Km altitude 30 Km range, IIR guidance

-Hisar-O (Nokta) High altitude medium range, 20km altitude 50 Km range, IIR-RF guidance (PAC-3 equivalent)

-Hisar-U High altitude long range, 20 Km+ altitude 100-150 Km range, IIR-RF guidance (PAC-2 equivalent)


Hope all those projects get success in field.

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## Path-Finder

cabatli_53 said:


> Here is a big official family of domestic SAM system named Hisar:
> 
> -Hisar MANPADS VSHORAD: 4km altitude, 6km range (replacement for stinger)
> 
> -Hisar-A low altitude, 10 Km altitude 16 Km+ range, IIR guidance
> 
> -Hisar-O Medium altitude, 15 Km altitude 30 Km range, IIR guidance
> 
> -Hisar-O (Nokta) High altitude medium range, 20km altitude 50 Km range, IIR-RF guidance (PAC-3 equivalent)
> 
> -Hisar-U High altitude long range, 20 Km+ altitude 100-150 Km range, IIR-RF guidance (PAC-2 equivalent)
> 
> 
> Hope all those projects get success in field.


any pics of Hisar MANPAD?


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## Zarvan

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


>


It should be selected if it performs better than all the other Guns in trials but if FN SCAR is performing better than we should go for FN SCAR. From Turkey we can get corvettes and Frigates and Anti Tank Missiles along with IFV and APC and also Air Defence Systems

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> It should be selected if it performs better than all the other Guns in trials but if FN SCAR is performing better than we should go for FN SCAR. From Turkey we can get corvettes and Frigates and Anti Tank Missiles along with IFV and APC and also Air Defence Systems





Zarvan said:


> The picture I shared included MPT-76. The Gun on extreme right was MPT-76 now as for ADA class corvettes that is good news but I am hoping that Pakistan also becomes partner in Istanbul class Frigates and TF-2000 Class Frigates. MPT-76 is good Gun but doesn't match performance of SCAR no Gun is coming close to SCAR in performance that is the issue


right now there appears to be only one thing that is keeping you up right and that is SCAR. do you dream SCAR?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> right now there appears to be only one thing that is keeping you up right and that is SCAR. do you dream SCAR?


SCAR H by far is best Gun and it has proved it self in trials. If Pakistan is hell bent on selecting 2nd best or 3rd best Gun than personally I consider it dishonesty towards the soldier who puts his life at risk and doesn't have best weapons with him

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> SCAR H by far is best Gun and it has proved it self in trials. If Pakistan is hell bent on selecting 2nd best or 3rd best Gun than personally I consider it dishonesty towards the soldier who puts his life at risk and doesn't have best weapons with him


 if i ask you to back up your claim then things will get out of hand so ill leave it at that.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> if i ask you to back up your claim then things will get out of hand so ill leave it at that.


Mr you can ask balixd and I have also talked to people inside Army Mr SCAR is leading the trials so your denial won't change anything


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> Mr you can ask balixd and I have also talked to people inside Army Mr SCAR is leading the trials so your denial won't change anything


Zarvan I am after *official confirmation*!


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## weqi

I MA LOOKING COPY OF F-16


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## Super Falcon

Muhammad Omar said:


> T-129 For sure
> any chances of Altay and Hisar missiles


I totally agree with you Just missile is needed to boost our air defence strength

If you take out spada 2000 and FM 90 our airdefence is not only weak but what ever we have are similar ranges no difference 

Hisar missile is needed with naval destroyers too



Zarvan said:


> SCAR H by far is best Gun and it has proved it self in trials. If Pakistan is hell bent on selecting 2nd best or 3rd best Gun than personally I consider it dishonesty towards the soldier who puts his life at risk and doesn't have best weapons with him


Fully agree with you we choose best rather than thinking useless things that we buy from Turkey just they are our friends 

We consider best available option for armed forces than the sense of increasing defence budget has no means other than pampering soldiers child


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## cabatli_53

Turkish defence industry officials and Pakistani delegation met in Turkey...

https://m.facebook.com/savunmasanay...5278376216/1066908863401516/?type=3&source=48

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## HRK

cabatli_53 said:


> Turkish defence industry officials and Pakistani delegation met in Turkey...
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/savunmasanay...5278376216/1066908863401516/?type=3&source=48



any news about T-129 .... further can you comment about the effects of recent unsuccessful coup on the Turkish defence Industry in general and on T-129 in particular .... ??

thnx in advance ...


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

HRK said:


> any news about T-129 .... further can you comment about the effects of recent unsuccessful coup on the Turkish defence Industry in general and on T-129 in particular .... ??
> 
> thnx in advance ...


As FETO proxy terrorists, the best of the best in this business, are being painstakingly cleared, the defense sector will get even more boosts. FETO bugs were creating roadblocks, staging sabotages and leaking sensitive data. For example, key officers involved in indegenous warships and fighter projects were put into jail under false allegations. They are now out. 150k hardcore zombies have been found to be in the network. 58k have been identified so far..

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## MadDog

cabatli_53 said:


> Turkish defence industry officials and Pakistani delegation met in Turkey...
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/savunmasanay...5278376216/1066908863401516/?type=3&source=48



I believe within the next few years, Turkish weapons systems and equipment alongside Chinese systems will form the backbone of Pakistan's military. This is what I wanted to see, MashAllah, Pak Turk relationship is rising than ever before, it sure is a nightmare for our Indian neighbors in the east, who have wet dreams of regionally isolating Pakistan !!!

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## shhh

graphican said:


> I always cherish Pakistan-Turkey relationship. Even our flags resemble a lot.
> 
> On a side note, look at this statement from Niamat Allah Shah Wali when he predicted "GhazwatulHind".
> 
> "Pakistan, Iran and Turkey will be on one side."
> 
> The equation of supporters and allies of Pakistan is almost linear. Turkey has came many steps forward and has embrace Pakistan as one of its military allies. Iran is otherwise neutral but in both battles, Iran has supported Pakistan on both wars against India more than we expected.
> 
> 5 years ago, I used to wander why Arabs and Bangladeshis are never mentioned in foretelling as allies of Pakistan against India but in 2016, this is very clear why.



Iran aint gonna be on our side, neither will Turkey.


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## Indus Pakistan

MadDog said:


> Turkish weapons systems


You are aware that most Turkish weapon systems are partly to significantly American copyrights. Very few countries other than Russia produce weapons entirely dependant on suppliers within their borders. Turkish defence industry fits into the wider Western defence architecture. This means they potentially carry the same restrictions that a weapon bought from UK, Germany, France, Israel, Japan, South Korea etc do. That is something to bear in mind. You are not free from USA, not by any stretch of imagination.



Shaheer ul haq said:


> Iran aint gonna be on our side, neither will Turkey.


10/10. Common sense invested in a single sentance.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Kaptaan said:


> You are aware that most Turkish weapon systems are partly to significantly American copyrights. Very few countries other than Russia produce weapons entirely dependant on suppliers within their borders. Turkish defence industry fits into the wider Western defence architecture. This means they potentially carry the same restrictions that a weapon bought from UK, Germany, France, Israel, Japan, South Korea etc do. That is something to bear in mind. You are not free from USA, not by any stretch of imagination.
> 
> 
> 10/10. Common sense invested in a single sentance.


That's the exactly the reason Turkey wants to build something that can be declared as really her own. Can't ask a _Na-baleg_ kid to marry and start a family. It takes time. July 15th attempt to occupy Turkey internally was done to permanently dwarf the growth...

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## Indus Pakistan

HAKIKAT said:


> build something that can be declared as really her own


Very true.


HAKIKAT said:


> _Na-baleg_


Urdu is not my strength but is the word not "Na-balek"?

And if you don't mind me asking which area of Turkey are you from?


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## MadDog

Kaptaan said:


> Very true.
> 
> Urdu is not my strength but is the word not "Na-balek"?
> 
> And if you don't mind me asking which area of Turkey are you from?



It is Naa-Balegh in urdu, with a Ghain at the end !!!

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Kaptaan said:


> Very true.
> 
> Urdu is not my strength but is the word not "Na-balek"?
> 
> And if you don't mind me asking which area of Turkey are you from?


Yes. I think both are coming from Persian. Central Anatolia..

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## Indus Pakistan

HAKIKAT said:


> Central Anatolia..


Heartland of Turkey. I once read a book about the Ottomans (English book) and the writer described the high plateaux of Central Anatolia as the land which provided the Ottoman Empire it's real power base.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Kaptaan said:


> Heartland of Turkey. I once read a book about the Ottomans (English book) and the writer described the high plateaux of Central Anatolia as the land which provided the Ottoman Empire it's real power base.


Thanks for your comments. Few traits of the folks from the Central Anatolia:

Moderately conservative and traditionalist, but definitely not extremist.
Mildly nationalist, but definitely not racist.
Give importance to education.
Love to serve in the government and be loyal to the State.
Show lots of interest in business. They have excelled in large, medium and small scale industrial, construction, trade, retails etc. enterprises. They are getting increasingly good at exports and setting up business entities in other countries like former Soviet block countries. So, looking at CPEC, my gut feeling is that it exactly matches with their business models. I hope that lots of the Central Anatolian entrepreneurs fully leverage CPEC.

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## Indus Pakistan

HAKIKAT said:


> Thanks for your comments. Few traits of the folks from the Central Anatolia:
> 
> Moderately conservative and traditionalist, but definitely not extremist.
> Mildly nationalist, but definitely not racist.
> Give importance to education.
> Love to serve in the government and be loyal to the State.
> Show lots of interest in business. They have excelled in large, medium and small scale industrial, construction, trade, retails etc. enterprises. They are getting increasingly good at exports and setting up business entities in other countries like former Soviet block countries. So, looking at CPEC, my gut feeling is that it exactly matches with their business models. I hope that lots of the Central Anatolian entrepreneurs fully leverage CPEC.


Thanks for that excellent summary. If I remember correctly that book I read on Turkey said that the Anatolian central highlands had bred a stock of hardy people, loyal to the state and that formed the backbone of the Ottoman Empire. What you say sort of fits in that.

Hakikat What I find fascinating about Turks and the Islam practiced there is how well it sits with Turkish nationalism. Islam in Turkey seems to reinforce the Turkish state. Whereas in Pakistan Islam weakens the state. It creates citizens who end up investing citizenship in the ummah and will go against the interest of the state in pursuit of that. This is not the case in Turkey. Zulkarneyn gave me some insight into this but I need to look at this more.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Pakistan was created on the basis of Islam, Muslims etc. So, Islam should also reinforce Pak state..

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## shhh

Kaptaan said:


> Thanks for that excellent summary. If I remember correctly that book I read on Turkey said that the Anatolian central highlands had bred a stock of hardy people, loyal to the state and that formed the backbone of the Ottoman Empire. What you say sort of fits in that.
> 
> Hakikat What I find fascinating about Turks and the Islam practiced there is how well it sits with Turkish nationalism. Islam in Turkey seems to reinforce the Turkish state. Whereas in Pakistan Islam weakens the state. It creates citizens who end up investing citizenship in the ummah and will go against the interest of the state in pursuit of that. This is not the case in Turkey. Zulkarneyn gave me some insight into this but I need to look at this more.



What do you think people are gonna do if you are going to bow down to non muslims to kill muslims?


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## RAMPAGE

HAKIKAT said:


> Pakistan was created on the basis of Islam, Muslims etc. So, Islam should also reinforce Pak state..


Pakistan was created to get Muslims the political representation that would've been denied to them in a pseudo-secular Indian union. It was not created to to enforce shariah on the Muslims of Subcontinent.

The state of Pakistan should be reinforced by ideals such as liberty, equality and justice. These ideals cannot be implemented in a non-secular state.

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## T-123456

Kaptaan said:


> Hakikat What I find fascinating about Turks and the Islam practiced there is how well it sits with Turkish nationalism. Islam in Turkey seems to reinforce the Turkish state. Whereas in Pakistan Islam weakens the state. It creates citizens who end up investing citizenship in the ummah and will go against the interest of the state in pursuit of that. This is not the case in Turkey. Zulkarneyn gave me some insight into this but I need to look at this more.


It has nothing to do with religion,it never used to be the important factor.
Nationalism is the key factor here,Turkish nationalism is not comparable to what we know as nationalism.
As know you know 98% of Turks are ''Muslims'',Sunni,Alevi,Shia,Suleymani,Nur etc,so we dont have the need to emphasize religion.
The nation comes first.



RAMPAGE said:


> Pakistan was created to get Muslims the political representation that would've been denied to them in a pseudo-secular Indian union.* It was not created to to enforce shariah on the Muslims of Subcontinent.*
> 
> The state of Pakistan should be reinforced by ideals such as* liberty, equality and justice.* These ideals cannot be implemented in a non-secular state.


If only.



HAKIKAT said:


> Pakistan was created on the basis of Islam, Muslims etc. So, Islam should also reinforce Pak state..


Read the history of Pakistan,you might be surprized.
Btw,try to find out what the white stripe on the Pakistani flag means.

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## RAMPAGE

T-123456 said:


> If only.


Inshallah! Humans are by default a very progressive species. Sooner or later, the progress will come. One way or the other.

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## Indus Pakistan

T-123456 said:


> As know you know 98% of Turks are ''Muslims'',Sunni,Alevi,Shia,Suleymani,Nur etc,so we dont have the need to emphasize religion.
> The *nation comes first*.


This is what fascinates me. This is the Gordion Knot that I can't quite disentangle. 98% of Pakistan is also Muslim of various denomonations. However the *nation does* not come first. *Islam does*.

This is a recipe for disaster that opens up the state being held hostage to every one penny bit crook that invokes the *sanction* of Allah and to enforce their Islamic prescription and *political goals*. This works at differant levels. We end up with* myriad* of groups with one extreme on the spectrum being the TTP although there are others not quite as virulent but still pose a threat. Also we even have individuals like the policeman who murdered Governor Taseer who similary invoked himself as agent of Allah's sanction. This leades to mass of warring groups in state of conflict with each other and ultimately weakening the state as it becomes hostage to whatever interpretation is cited as Islamic. You can see the murderous rampage inside Pakistan as the result of this.

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## Zarvan

Kaptaan said:


> Thanks for that excellent summary. If I remember correctly that book I read on Turkey said that the Anatolian central highlands had bred a stock of hardy people, loyal to the state and that formed the backbone of the Ottoman Empire. What you say sort of fits in that.
> 
> Hakikat What I find fascinating about Turks and the Islam practiced there is how well it sits with Turkish nationalism. Islam in Turkey seems to reinforce the Turkish state. Whereas in Pakistan Islam weakens the state. It creates citizens who end up investing citizenship in the ummah and will go against the interest of the state in pursuit of that. This is not the case in Turkey. Zulkarneyn gave me some insight into this but I need to look at this more.


You Sir really need to study Islam. Turkey is not following Islam as state and in most cases Pakistan isn't also. As for endorsing state !!!! Well we got one major problem with that despite my immense love for Pakistan I have to admit Islam doesn't accept nation state concept. Denying that is amusing but not reality. @T-123456 @RAMPAGE

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## RAMPAGE

Zarvan said:


> You Sir really need to study Islam. Turkey is not following Islam as state and in most cases Pakistan isn't also. As for endorsing state !!!! Well we got one major problem with that despite my immense love for Pakistan I have to admit Islam doesn't accept nation state concept. Denying that is amusing but not reality. @T-123456 @RAMPAGE


You should move to Mars. They don't have states there.

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## Indus Pakistan

Zarvan said:


> You Sir really need to study Islam.


This may surprise you but I have studied it. I have also read Sir Allama Iqbals works foremost being "Reconstruction of Religious thought in Islam".

Link > http://islamicblessings.com/upload/The Reconstruction Of Religious Thought In Islam.pdf



Zarvan said:


> I have to admit Islam doesn't accept nation state concept


Well there you have it. Thanks for being honest. The nation state as defined by Westphalian principles as on contours of which Pakistan exists is anathema to traditional Islamists. So in a sense Pakistan is not a vessel that can contain the Islamists vewrsion of Ummah concept because it is transnational rather than national. It in fact invalidates the very foundations of Pakistan including even it's military.

In ideal Islam conceptual level the military would be serving the interests of the ummah rather than the nation state of Pakistan. which is why TTP and other radical Islamists call Pak Army "Na-Pak" army. This of course goes back to what I said about inheritant tensions within the very Dna of Pakistan which needs resolving.



RAMPAGE said:


> You should move to Mars. They don't have states there.


I can't help but chuckle at that.

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## T-123456

Kaptaan said:


> This is what fascinates me. This is the Gordion Knot that I can't quite disentangle. 98% of Pakistan is also Muslim of various denomonations. However the *nation does* not come first. *Islam does*.
> 
> This is a recipe for disaster that opens up the state being held hostage to every one penny bit crook that invokes the *sanction* of Allah and to enforce their Islamic prescription and *political goals*. This works at differant levels. We end up with* myriad* of groups with one extreme on the spectrum being the TTP although there are others not quite as virulent but still pose a threat. Also we even have individuals like the policeman who murdered Governor Taseer who similary invoked himself as agent of Allah's sanction. this is creates mas of warring groups in state of conflict with each other and ultimately weakening the state as it becomes hostage to whatever interpretation is cited as Islamic. You can see the murderous rampage inside Pakistan as the result of this.



It all started after Jinnah's death,the Muslim extremists took power and it all changed,you became the ''*Islamic* Republic of Pakistan'',every Muslim extremist group opened madrassas in Pakistan and slowly changed the mindset of the people.
Even the military has been infiltrated.

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## 50cent

Hope we get g3 replacement with some lightweight 7.62 newest thing Turkish defence has to offer


cabatli_53 said:


> The countries having strong SAM batteries are the one enemy air forces can't even dare to enter into territories that is protected by them. Strong methods and tactics are being generated to eliminate related SAM batteries' effectiveness. The advanced countries are pouring money for high cost electronic warfare sensors and jammers but No tech can guarantee the %100 survival against those things If they are advanced enough so The critical core technologies of SAM system that was charged to protect own Republic, must be inside of your engineers' hands to apply state of art new technologies to counter the latest posed threats. Otherwise, We don't have much chance to protect own lands with foreign SAM missiles that was developed by foreign hands & brains whose critical components are solely belong to them. They know the deficiency of their own system so continuously upgrading them, While exporting downgraded variants to other countries. When you required new upgrades, They want hundreds of million $.
> 
> so It is a must for the states like Turkey, Pakistan to develop own SAM missile family. We SHOULD cooperate on such critical defensive systems to establish a networked missile umbrella whose keys/switches are solely belong to us. Otherwise, If you go to a war with systems that was developed by the states supporting illegal terrorist establishments inside of Turkish army firing own parliament/buildings/people, and expressing their sadness for failed coup attempt of those terrorists, discussing the put Turkey out of NATO, Then It is clear for me that The day when We sign a deal to purchase such critical systems developed by those states, is the day when we signed the agreement of our own collapse. We should benefit from them as much as we can but It is proved again that Trusting those dogs must be the last thing We should do If You are out of their religious camp but Such activities just serve to increase our ambitious more and more. They will learn that They can't control the rise of Turkish industry from outside. They can't pose an open embargo but trying to hit below belt. We will tell the consequences of banning to hold the Turkish flag in some European countries after failed coup attempt, While PKK terrorist supporters are beating Turks, raising illegal terrorist flags. When they understood that PKK in S. East can't divide Turkey into pieces and lost around 7000 militants within 1 year, They activated their plan B inside of Turkish Army to open the way for PKK. We just need time&hard working !


 can Pak Turk joint emf weapons knock out enemy electronic radar aircraft avonics power station computers


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## T-123456

Zarvan said:


> Islam doesn't accept nation state concept


What instead?


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## RAMPAGE

T-123456 said:


> It all started after Jinnah's death,the Muslim extremists took power and it all changed,you became the ''*Islamic* Republic of Pakistan'',every Muslim extremist group opened madrassas in Pakistan and slowly changed the mindset of the people.
> Even the military has been infiltrated.


http://www.dawn.com/news/1259568/the-pakistan-jinnah-would-have-wanted


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## Indus Pakistan

Quote from Sir Allama Iqbal the idealogue of the idea of Pakistan.

_"Personally, I find the Turkish view is *perfectly sound*.”_

_"He went on to defend the separation of religion and state, writing, “The* republican form of government* is not only thoroughly *consistent* with the spirit of Islam, but has also become a *necessity* in view of the new forces that were set free in the world of Islam.”


Iqbal further cited two examples of how in early Islam the caliphate had adapted to political realities. First was the abolition of a condition thatthe caliph had to descend from the Meccan Arab tribe of Quraysh. Iqbal cited the ruling of an 11th-century jurist that, since the Quraysh tribe had experienced a political debacle, ruling the world of Islam no longer required belonging to the Quraysh tribe. The second example involved the historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun, who in the 15th century declared that since the power of the Quraysh had vanished, the only alternative was to accept the country’s most powerful man as the country’s imam or caliph. Iqbal concluded from all this that there was no difference between the position of Khaldun, who had realized the hard logic of facts, and the *attitude of modern Turks*, who were also inspired by the realities of their time rather than by medieval laws written under different conditions of life._

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## T-123456

RAMPAGE said:


> http://www.dawn.com/news/1259568/the-pakistan-jinnah-would-have-wanted


You should let @HAKIKAT read this.



Kaptaan said:


> Quote from Sir Allama Iqbal the idealogue of the idea of Pakistan.
> 
> _"Personally, I find the Turkish view is *perfectly sound*.”_
> 
> _"He went on to defend the separation of religion and state, writing, “The* republican form of government* is not only thoroughly *consistent* with the spirit of Islam, but has also become a *necessity* in view of the new forces that were set free in the world of Islam.”
> 
> 
> Iqbal further cited two examples of how in early Islam the caliphate had adapted to political realities. First was the abolition of a condition thatthe caliph had to descend from the Meccan Arab tribe of Quraysh. Iqbal cited the ruling of an 11th-century jurist that, since the Quraysh tribe had experienced a political debacle, ruling the world of Islam no longer required belonging to the Quraysh tribe. The second example involved the historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun, who in the 15th century declared that since the power of the Quraysh had vanished, the only alternative was to accept the country’s most powerful man as the country’s imam or caliph. Iqbal concluded from all this that there was no difference between the position of Khaldun, who had realized the hard logic of facts, and the *attitude of modern Turks*, who were also inspired by the realities of their time rather than by medieval laws written under different conditions of life._


And also,Jinnah was called ''Grey Wolf'' for a reason by his daughter when she was young(12),he admired Ataturk(modern Turk).
Both examples tell us enough about what Pakistan should have become.

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## RAMPAGE

T-123456 said:


> You should let @HAKIKAT read this.


Unlikely that it would matter. I suspect he's past the age in which Human mind is vulnerable to change. He's looking for something in Pakistan that's just not there. Something that you'll often see conservative Bangladeshi members on PDF and other conservative Muslims from weaker states and sometimes even from countries such as yours, expecting from Pakistan.

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## Zarvan

RAMPAGE said:


> You should move to Mars. They don't have states there.


Islam orders remain same and won't change to please you. Even Iqbal called nation state as biggest false GOD of modern times.



Kaptaan said:


> This may surprise you but I have studied it. I have also read Sir Allama Iqbals works foremost being "Reconstruction of Religious thought in Islam".
> 
> Link > http://islamicblessings.com/upload/The Reconstruction Of Religious Thought In Islam.pdf
> 
> Well there you have it. Thanks for being honest. The nation state as defined by Westphalian principles as on contours of which Pakistan exists is anathema to traditional Islamists. So in a sense Pakistan is not a vessel that can contain the Islamists vewrsion of Ummah concept because it is transnational rather than national. It in fact invalidates the very foundations of Pakistan including even it's military.
> 
> In ideal Islam conceptual level the military would be serving the interests of the ummah rather than the nation state of Pakistan. which is why TTP and other radical Islamists call Pak Army "Na-Pak" army. This of course goes back to what I said about inheritant tensions within the very Dna of Pakistan which needs resolving.
> 
> I can't help but chuckle at that.


Iqbal is not final authority on Islam. I love Iqbal but he himself has contradicted himself on several occasions. And Atatürk actions sorry but are not only against Islam but even worse.


----------



## MadDog

Kaptaan said:


> This is what fascinates me. This is the Gordion Knot that I can't quite disentangle. 98% of Pakistan is also Muslim of various denomonations. However the *nation does* not come first. *Islam does*.
> 
> This is a recipe for disaster that opens up the state being held hostage to every one penny bit crook that invokes the *sanction* of Allah and to enforce their Islamic prescription and *political goals*. This works at differant levels. We end up with* myriad* of groups with one extreme on the spectrum being the TTP although there are others not quite as virulent but still pose a threat. Also we even have individuals like the policeman who murdered Governor Taseer who similary invoked himself as agent of Allah's sanction. This leades to mass of warring groups in state of conflict with each other and ultimately weakening the state as it becomes hostage to whatever interpretation is cited as Islamic. You can see the murderous rampage inside Pakistan as the result of this.



That has changed considerably, this type of intolerance in society could be observed from 2008-13, but with Zarb-e-Azb and NAP, especially after APS incident society has changed radically. Lemme give u a few examples. Easter, Christmas, Diwali have been declared national holidays, imams have been arrested in numerous cases for spreading hate speech, people (such as some shopkeepers) posting hate speech posters regarding a sect or religion including Anti Ahmedi posters have been arrested, there are openly talks happening on tv channels that why a non muslim cant be PM of the country, etc, so society is changing and it has changed considerably for good !!!

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## -blitzkrieg-

RAMPAGE said:


> Pakistan was created to get Muslims the political representation that would've been denied to them in a pseudo-secular Indian union. It was not created to to enforce shariah on the Muslims of Subcontinent.
> 
> The state of Pakistan should be reinforced by ideals such as liberty, equality and justice. These ideals cannot be implemented in a non-secular state.



There you go again.You had to bring this up? secular or not? We all here are pretty determined that Pakistan was not formed a secular state nor as a theocracy.Please dont confuse the people any further by quoting articles of that heroinchi Nadeem dumb parcacha.
Some quick rebuttals, a few of jinnahs speeches
















*We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind. *










T-123456 said:


> It has nothing to do with religion,it never used to be the important factor.
> Nationalism is the key factor here,Turkish nationalism is not comparable to what we know as nationalism.
> As know you know 98% of Turks are ''Muslims'',Sunni,Alevi,Shia,Suleymani,Nur etc,so we dont have the need to emphasize religion.
> The nation comes first.
> 
> 
> If only.
> 
> 
> Read the history of Pakistan,you might be surprized.
> Btw,try to find out what the white stripe on the Pakistani flag means.


Our flag is the same green flag you see on the Ottoman coat of Arms banner in my DP. Do a bit research what this green flag stands for. Yes we added the white strip to signify the rights of minorities are protected on this land.
Just to let you know the madarsa extremism is not the result of country being an Islamic republic but the poor political discussions made over time.esp. the uncontrollable conflict that poured in from our western border.Things were pretty peaceful before that.




RAMPAGE said:


> Unlikely that it would matter. I suspect he's past the age in which Human mind is vulnerable to change. He's looking for something in Pakistan that's just not there. Something that you'll often see conservative Bangladeshi members on PDF and other conservative Muslims from weaker states and sometimes even from countries such as yours, expecting from Pakistan.


-


@HAKIKAT I would say just ignore such lads.they are young and inexperienced in communication.

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## Mohammad ahsen

T-123456 said:


> It all started after Jinnah's death,the Muslim extremists took power and it all changed,you became the ''*Islamic* Republic of Pakistan'',every Muslim extremist group opened madrassas in Pakistan and slowly changed the mindset of the people.
> Even the military has been infiltrated.


extremism religious unions not right but the country is not secular india was distribute of two nation the main deference is religion this why pakistan was not secular it is islamic state but all thing are not happen in pakistan of sharia


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

-blitzkrieg- said:


> There you go again.You had to bring this up? secular or not? We all here are pretty determined that Pakistan was not formed a secular state nor as a theocracy.Please dont confuse the people any further by quoting articles of that heroinchi Nadeem dumb parcacha.
> Some quick rebuttals, a few of jinnahs speeches
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> *We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind. *
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> Our flag is the same green flag you see on the Ottoman coat of Arms banner in my DP. Do a bit research what this green flag stands for. Yes we added the white strip to signify the rights of minorities are protected on this land.
> Just to let you know the madarsa extremism is not the result of country being an Islamic republic but the poor political discussions made over time.esp. the uncontrollable conflict that poured in from our western border.Things were pretty peaceful before that.
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> @HAKIKAT I would say just ignore such lads.they are young and inexperienced in communication.



“_İnsanı yaşat ki devlet yaşasın_ (Let people live so that the State lives)” - Sheyh Edebali's advice to his son-in-law, Osman Gazi, the founder of the Ottoman Empire

"There is no such thing as the State
And no one exists alone;
Hunger allows no choice
To the citizen or the police;
We must love one another or die." - W. H. Auden

In other times, I might have got engaged in vehement polemics, but not after July 15th experience. Everybody has the right to believe in whatever he/she likes. The most important thing is to be able to live in peace with our own selves and the surrounding folks - the rest are all details...

The "new normal" in Turkey - an "islamist" carrying the poster of Ataturk on his shoulder, and a "secularist" embossing the picture of Erdo'an on her T-shirt...

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## This Man

will this help pak military or turkey


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## The Eagle

@Oscar @waz @Manticore @mods

Can you please merge the undermentioned thread here that contains the details w.r.t to subjected news and is much relevant/in sequence so the information may not be missed.


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## fatman17

NewsTurkey

Turkey, Pakistan stress need for further defence cooperation

Turkish Undersecretary for Defence Industries Ismail Demir, says Turkey and Pakistan need to show more solidarity and cooperation as both nations face common challenges, such as terrorism.

Aug 20, 2016



Turkish Undersecretary for Defence Industries Ismail Demir, has underscored the need for enhancing further defence cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan in view of terror threats faced by both nations.

"Turkey and Pakistan need to show more solidarity and cooperation as both of them face [common] challenges such as terrorism," Demir said while speaking at the launching ceremony of a 17,000-ton fleet tanker in south-eastern Pakistani city of Karachi on Friday.

Demir acknowledged that Pakistan was among the first countries to support the Turkish people and its security forces against the defeated military coup attempt in Turkey on July 15.

"We are very grateful for their support."

About the warship fleet tanker, Demir said it was estimated the tanker would be able to serve for three or four decades.

"It is a symbol of close ties between the two countries."

"I am pleased to state that defence industry cooperation between the two countries is a significant example of our win-win approach, in cost saving technology transfer, capability sharing, joint production."

Turkey is said to be evaluating proposals from Pakistan for the purchase of its training aircraft for the Turkish Air Force.

A final decision on Pakistan’s Super Mushshak trainer aircraft is expected soon.

Demir said the Super Mushshak trainer aircraft will be the next training aircraft for the Turkish Air Force.

The 17,000-ton navy warship fleet tanker, which is capable of independently operating at sea for up to three months at a time, has been built and designed in collaboration with the Turkish firm STM and Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Production.

Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif said his country wants to have an “enhanced” defence sector collaboration with Turkey, particularly in the maritime field.

Sharif said the induction of the fleet tanker would play an important role in catering to the logistic needs of Pakistan’s navy.

“This is another testimony to increasing cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey. It will be remembered as a symbol of the time-tested Pakistan-Turkey friendship,” he said.

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## LeGenD

Good development. Turkey is one of the few markets where Pakistan have access to NATO-standards goods. 



Taimoor Khan said:


> This all could have come to nothing had the rebels succeed in their designs with that Gulen chap sitting in uncle Sam pulling strings on the orders of America. The main reasons Indians were rejoicing this coup.


Here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/16/fethullah-gulen-turkey-coup-erdogan



HAKIKAT said:


> Pakistan was created on the basis of Islam, Muslims etc. So, Islam should also reinforce Pak state..


Islam cannot reinforce Pak state until the nation itself is enlightened. At present the nation is dealing with the menace of extremism, terrorism, corruption and lack of vision. You don't see much Islam here.



Zarvan said:


> Islam orders remain same and won't change to please you. Even Iqbal called nation state as biggest false GOD of modern times.


The concept of statehood emerged as a response to address the earlier custom of an Empire not recognizing the sanctity of the other and swallowing it without repercussions or declaring it its colony.

Today states have internationally recognized borders. And you should be glad about it.

In modern times, if a state is occupied by the other, the occupied state still remains on the map. And occupation has to end.



Zarvan said:


> Iqbal is not final authority on Islam. I love Iqbal but he himself has contradicted himself on several occasions. And Atatürk actions sorry but are not only against Islam but even worse.


Kemal Ataturk had no choice but to save Turkey (his place of birth) from the wrath of allied forces after WW-I. He could not save the entire Ottoman Empire.


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## Taimoor Khan

LeGenD said:


> Here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/16/fethullah-gulen-turkey-coup-erdogan



There are many articles which are saying the opposite, I am sure you can google it. Bottom line is, its a great game to squeeze Russia. Russia effectively, from trade and economy point of view is a land locked country. Hardly any trade happen with Russia from its frozen north sea, or eastern hinterlands which I am sure most of the world is not even aware of. Black sea is their life line. They tried to shut them out when west played the Ukraine card, that didnt go well. Then they tried to shut the other side of black sea, the Bosporus, by creating tension between Russia and Turkey and that backfired quite spectacularly. The pilot who shotdown Russia plane was a gulenist. Connect the dots and things become clear. This coup was a desperate attempt to keep things on track as planed by west.


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## LeGenD

Taimoor Khan said:


> There are many articles which are saying the opposite, I am sure you can google it. Bottom line is, its a great game to squeeze Russia. Russia effectively, from trade and economy point of view is a land locked country. Hardly any trade happen with Russia from its frozen north sea, or eastern hinterlands which I am sure most of the world is not even aware of. Black sea is their life line. They tried to shut them out when west played the Ukraine card, that didnt go well. Then they tried to shut the other side of black sea, the Bosporus, by creating tension between Russia and Turkey and that backfired quite spectacularly. The pilot who shotdown Russia plane was a gulenist. Connect the dots and things become clear. This coup was a desperate attempt to keep things on track as planed by west.


Why would US want to destabilize a NATO member state? Doesn't makes sense to me.

It is true that Tayyip Erdoğan have enemies within Turkey and abroad but he wants to strengthen his grip to power. He actually benefited from the recent coup effort. He now have the justification to commence crackdown on his enemies and rivals in various circles.

Remember: politicians are politicians for a reason. So who was helping who is anyone's guess.


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