# CPEC a double edged sword???



## Al-Taïr

For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.

1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.

2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.

3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.

So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing. 

by MECH

(+ve,-ve, neutral) reviews & views are welcomed

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## Lurch Adams

Al-Taïr said:


> For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.
> 
> 1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.
> 
> 2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.
> 
> 3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.
> 
> So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.
> 
> by MECH
> 
> (+ve,-ve, neutral) reviews & views are welcomed



Reported to Mods for writing sensibly about the CPEC....
Just kidding!!!

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## kamrananvaar

Cpec is just a road . Pakistan needs more infrastructure like super highways. Goods from china already floiding the world including pakistan . Not even the mighty usa is immune. 
You want self reliance go ahead nobodys stopping you . Stop blaming others. This is a multi polar world . Usa has done jack sh.. For you . Hes supporting india for crying out load and you do all the heavy lifting like fight against terrorism . Still no mfn status for you . What has america done for you . 
On the contrary point three , pakistan should use its unique position and help itself in the long run


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## Indus Pakistan

Al-Taïr said:


> For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.
> 
> 1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.
> 
> 2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.
> 
> 3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.
> 
> So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.
> 
> by MECH
> 
> (+ve,-ve, neutral) reviews & views are welcomed



Yes, your right. It's just a road. Just strip of tarmac. Just a ribbon. What will it do? Well it will flood the Pakistani market. It will destroy our industry. So what is good about it?

Everything. The problem with Pakistan is we have stuck our heads up our backsides. This has allowed the world to move on while we are still sat there in our villages swatting flies. Have you ever thought why a country of 200 million people has exports less than 3 million Ireland?

Where is our so called industry? Well we don't have industry like most of the world. We have parasites going as industry. Now this is how "parasite industry" works. The elite make the poor go abroad to slave away in Saudia Arabia or other countries. The billions that comes to Pakistan then is spent on cars, motorbikes, houses, food, fridges, electrical products etc.

Then the elite create a import restriction that either stops anything being imported or attracts high taxes. That means when you want to buy a car, fridge etc you can't buy it from abroad. Then the ruling elite give a licence to one of their favourites to make friidges. The factory that makes fridges can be utterly inefficent and the fridge could be rubbish but it still sells because onsumers have no choice. So these lame duck industries that really are just parasites and survive because of regulated market keep making money for the elite.

Comes alonng CPEC. destroys these industries. Consumer get choice. If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese? If our industry shuts it is because it was incompetant parasite. As industry shuts down that effects the market. The Chinese companies will soon start moving their prodiction units along the CPEC to supply local market as well as abroad. This then over time introduces nerw ideas, new ways of running things and introdices competion. Over time some of our people start comepting and the best go on to then compete with the world. This is why CPEC is good for us in the long run.

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## marbella

chinese railway engines didn't work.
chinese powerplant dongfeng is the latest example


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## Indus Pakistan

And the biggest thing CPEC will do in the long run is intangible. It will bring in ideas of modernity into our country. It will introduce *fresh ways of thinking*. Ways of thinking and doing things that have catapulted China from poverty to near superpower.

From this:-







This remarkable change has come about because of certain way of thinking, certain way of *doing things*. We need to *learn* some of this. Over two thousand years ago a profound idea - Buddhism moved from Taxila near what is now Islamabad, Pakistan along the the very route of the CPEC north into China. It had profound effect on China.

I might be hoping for too much but today even if small amount of Chinese thinking move south along the very same route rubs off on us we will make giant progress.

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## Tiger Genie

@Al-Tair - well written; it is indeed a much needed but dual edged thing. It is certainly nowhere near the nirvana that many Pakistanis make it out to be even if you discount all the cautions and risks your are pointing to.

From my read, the biggest risk that CPEC poses to Pakistan is actually if it succeeds too well !! in that scenario if it manages to divert other egresses to/from China, it ends up becoming way to vital for the Chinese. When something becomes THAT vital to China, Chinese being long yard players, I cannot envisage any scenario (of agreements and amity with Pakistan) that will make them (China) sleep with ease if such a vital interest remains an external dependency.

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## Indus Pakistan

Tiger Genie said:


> @Al-Tair - well written; it is indeed a much needed but dual edged thing. It is *certainly nowhere near the nirvana* that many Pakistanis make it out to be even if you discount all the cautions and risks your are pointing to.
> 
> From my read, the biggest risk that CPEC poses to Pakistan is actually if it succeeds too well !! in that scenario if it manages to divert other egresses to/from China, it ends up becoming way to vital for the Chinese. When something becomes THAT vital to China, Chinese being long yard players, I cannot envisage any scenario (of agreements and amity with Pakistan) that will make them (China) sleep with ease if such a vital interest remains an external dependency.



Debateable but it sure ain't nirvana for you Indian's. More like CPEC equates to* purgatory.*

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## Metanoia

I consider CPEC to be a catalyst...a window of opportunity.

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## Whazzup

Atanz said:


> Debateable but it sure ain't nirvana for you Indian's. More like CPEC equates to* purgatory.*



Well but the OP is right about capturing the market nonetheless. I understand it will raise the bar for industry in Pakistan but still will Pakistan's industry will grow?....No



> One of the mainstays of the Chinese strategy of following a mass-production and mass-consumption formula is to keep the profit margins low and cover the gap by the subsequent boost in sales. As its motto, the huge scale of operations of the Chinese industry is geared towards supplying not only the large domestic market, but also exporting extensively to global market at cheap rates.





> The cheap labour in China leads to cheaper availability of goods. However, that is only partially true; labour is only one part of the total cost of a product, and in many cases it is as low as 20 percent of the total cost. There are about 1000 protest demonstrations occurring every week in China at the risk of beatings, demotions, dismissal and even torture. As a result, wages have finally been rising by about 15 percent every year over the past four years. It took suicides by workers in the summer of 2010 to achieve additional improvement in wages and working conditions at plants which were more like prison camps with dormitories for workers to live in. Fences were constructed around the buildings so workers couldn’t leave the premises.





> China has a national strategy of what is called “dumping.” Dumping is defined as the act of a manufacturer in one country exporting a product to another country at a price that is either below the price it charges in its home market or is below its cost of production. The goal of dumping is to capture the market or destroy the competition for a particular product or commodity so that the price to the end user or consumer is lowered way below the competition, sometimes even below the cost of production.



Cheap Chinese Products: Destroying Indian Producers

How will Pakistan's industry gonna progress when they will gonna loose the demand for their products?

P.S Sir plz reply to me and not my flag

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## touela

Atanz said:


> Yes, your right. It's just a road. Just strip of tarmac. Just a ribbon. What will it do? Well it will flood the Pakistani market. It will destroy our industry. So what is good about it?
> 
> Everything. The problem with Pakistan is we have stuck our heads up our backsides. This has allowed the world to move on while we are still sat there in our villages swatting flies. Have you ever thought why a country of 200 million people has exports less than 3 million Ireland?
> 
> Where is our so called industry? Well we don't have industry like most of the world. We have parasites going as industry. Now this is how "parasite industry" works. The elite make the poor go abroad to slave away in Saudia Arabia or other countries. The billions that comes to Pakistan then is spent on cars, motorbikes, houses, food, fridges, electrical products etc.
> 
> Then the elite create a import restriction that either stops anything being imported or attracts high taxes. That means when you want to buy a car, fridge etc you can't buy it from abroad. Then the ruling elite give a licence to one of their favourites to make friidges. The factory that makes fridges can be utterly inefficent and the fridge could be rubbish but it still sells because onsumers have no choice. So these lame duck industries that really are just parasites and survive because of regulated market keep making money for the elite.
> 
> Comes alonng CPEC. destroys these industries. Consumer get choice. If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese? If our industry shuts it is because it was incompetant parasite. As industry shuts down that effects the market. The Chinese companies will soon start moving their prodiction units along the CPEC to supply local market as well as abroad. This then over time introduces nerw ideas, new ways of running things and introdices competion. Over time some of our people start comepting and the best go on to then compete with the world. This is why CPEC is good for us in the long run.



Very very well replied


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## dadeechi

Al-Taïr said:


> For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.
> 
> 1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.
> 
> 2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.
> 
> 3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.
> 
> So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.
> 
> by MECH
> 
> (+ve,-ve, neutral) reviews & views are welcomed




*Good thoughtful* *critique.

On the 3rd point, if CPEC is deemed potentially successful then there is potential risk that Pakistan could become a play ground between West on one side and Russia/China on the other side.

Pakistan could become another Ukraine or Syria.

*

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## Maravan

Yes sometimes it happens and the local industries got crushed, once a small town in tamil nadu contributed to 90% of fireworks production of entire India. After chinese fireworks entered, now even well renowned local industries informed their workers they are going to shut the factory for 3months. Our local manufacturers made fireworks from aluminium powder which is less inflammable and costly, chinese fireworks are made of potassium powder which is highly inflammable and cheap.

The same town was flourishing in printing as well due to the fireworks production and contributed more than 60% of India's entire printing works, now everything got a big hit.

Ensure that you don't allow products which are well available in the local market to save your local industrial base.

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## Donatello

Lurch Adams said:


> In 1971, America made sure that India didn't cause the disintegration of Western Pakistan. The only thing that stood between Pakistan and becoming history was the US.



How many stray dogs bit you?

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## Lurch Adams

Donatello said:


> How many stray dogs bit you?



Yes, I know. The surrender was just a ruse. Afterwards the defeated (not) Punjabi army was going to rip us to shreds. America saved us, not you (yawn).


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## dadeechi

Maravan said:


> Yes sometimes it happens and the local industries got crushed, once a small town in tamil nadu contributed to 90% of fireworks production of entire India. After chinese fireworks entered, now even well renowned local industries informed their workers they are going to shut the factory for 3months. Our local manufacturers made fireworks from aluminium powder which is less inflammable and costly, chinese fireworks are made of potassium powder which is highly inflammable and cheap.
> 
> The same town was flourishing in printing as well due to the fireworks production and contributed more than 60% of India's entire printing works, now everything got a big hit.
> 
> Ensure that you don't allow products which are well available in the local market to save your local industrial base.



Sivakasi

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## Maravan

dadeechi said:


> Sivakasi


Exactly.


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## dadeechi

Maravan said:


> Exactly.



I loved Sivakasi fireworks. This is really a tragedy...


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## Viper0011.

Al-Taïr said:


> For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.



Any infrastructure development that can connect a poor country of 200 million people, without electricity, businesses or a strong economy, to a market of over 1.6+ billion people (China, Russia, some Central Russian States, Europe, etc), can NEVER be bad. I can write a book on the benefits of such a trade route. Be a critic, you are entitled to your opinion, but form your opinion based on actual, hard facts. Unless we are talking about a Movie, or Music or if you like Toyota better than a Mercedez, those are all personal feelings. This topic right here, requires serious facts as someone decided to invest $ 46 billion into Pakistan and Pakistan, decided to provide a full port to the investors. There are a LOT of complexities involved here beyond simple comprehension, so facts are required. 




> 1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.



The good from Chin are ALREADY flooding the Pakistani market, the American, the French, the Dubai and every other market. Small needles, to writing Pen's, to now Jets are build in China. So this route won't pour anything more into Pakistani markets than there already is. You can't supply more stuff to a city or a country that's beyond people's buying power or reach. In fact, this road will make Chinese products cheaper as the shipping and flying routes are being cut much shorter and replaced with ordinary trucks. 

This entire corridor is the future manufacturing hub, manufacturing facilities will be moving from China to Pakistan around this corridor. The Chinese labor is aging and they need someone to help them keep manufacturing. Plus, such a massive system of highways, railroads, etc will allow Pakistani products and services to go elsewhere too, like Russia, Central Asian states, Eastern Europe, and even to Europe...




> 2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West.



There is no excess of anything on here. Pakistan has good relationships with China, Russia, the ME, Korea, the US, the UK and the French. Not sure where did you think that Pakistan was all Chinese focused and nothing else. If your electric system was working right, you'd be sending billions of Textile products to the EU, due to their GSP Plus designation for Pakistan. Now that's not China. Similarly, with the US, Pakistan enjoys a MNNA status. That's how a lot of times, Pakistan get very capable stuff for like 30-40% of the actual market price!!

Once the electric issues are restored and businesses start to function, this mess of terrorism is eliminated and stability comes in, you'll also see many billions of investments coming in from the US, UK, etc (the West). Just because a country decided to do a large investment, doesn't mean they are giving Pakistan a favor. They've calculated over a 30% ROI on these projects after breaking even, every year for the next 15-20 years (when Pakistan reaches a level of maturity in her Economic growth).




> 3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and Pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the British came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.



I have NO idea how to respond to the above comment. You think if a country's economy grows and they have say $ 100 or $ 200 billion sitting in their savings account, you don't think they'll increase their defense budget accordingly??? May be I should remind you, you are a country with the fastest growing numbers of Flash lights per year at this time !!! 

By 2018-2019, they are estimating Pakistan's defense budget to be that of Turkey's. And that's ALSO why LM had put Pakistan into its list of "potential customers" starting 2022, for the -35!!! 

Starting around or after 2020, the PAF's size will increase significantly with all 4++ gen fighters (new orders), expect a serious 30%+ growth in numbers. This has nothing to do with what you acquire between now and then. Similarly, the PN's size will easily increase well over 50%. The PN not only has to project force to protect thousands of trade vessels coming to and leaving from Pakistan for trade for China, Russia, etc. 

She also needs to protect over 350 miles wide EEZ, one on side, getting close to Dawarka and Bombay, and on the other side, getting close to the Strait of Homez and Gulf of Oman. This is VERY strategic. Now if the PN had more vessels, it can literally place them within a 100 miles of Dawarka and put a serious watch on one of the much larger Naval bases there. Similarly, the distance allows the PN to avoid any blockade. If the PN had the numbers, it can ALSO block any inbound ships to India from the Gulf of Oman / Strait of Homez too as you won't be too far from it. 

Also, the next obvious step should be to build a big Naval station by Jivani, which is on the border of Iran and Pakistan. And if I remember correctly, its like 20-30 miles from Chahabar. I hope someone from the PN's high command is reading this post as I've outlined a SERIOUS future Naval strategy for the PN  , it offers both a serous deterrence and a serious offensive capability as needed 




> So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.



I agree with the last paragraph, there should be careful negotiations. And as the economy grows, so will the defense power too. There is no potential here to blow up in your face. That's a crazy thought!!! I am not even sure where it is coming from. Out of the 6 countries with Flash lights, three are DIRECTLY involved here (China, Russia and Pakistan), so unless someone wants to start WWIII, no one's going to have issues with it. And if the WWIII starts, even if the CPEC didn't exist, everyone should naturally say good bye to their families anyway. Because shiit is going to hit the fan, and a LOT of shiit on a very big, fast running fan

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## Sipahi

Viper0011. said:


> Any infrastructure development that can connect a poor country of 200 million people, without electricity, businesses or a strong economy, to a market of over 1.6+ billion people (China, Russia, some Central Russian States, Europe, etc), can NEVER be bad. I can write a book on the benefits of such a trade route. Be a critic, you are entitled to your opinion, but form your opinion based on actual, hard facts. Unless we are talking about a Movie, or Music or if you like Toyota better than a Mercedez, those are all personal feelings. This topic right here, requires serious facts as someone decided to invest $ 46 billion into Pakistan and Pakistan, decided to provide a full port to the investors. There are a LOT of complexities involved here beyond simple comprehension, so facts are required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The good from Chin are ALREADY flooding the Pakistani market, the American, the French, the Dubai and every other market. Small needles, to writing Pen's, to now Jets are build in China. So this route won't pour anything more into Pakistani markets than there already is. You can't supply more stuff to a city or a country that's beyond people's buying power or reach. In fact, this road will make Chinese products cheaper as the shipping and flying routes are being cut much shorter and replaced with ordinary trucks.
> 
> This entire corridor is the future manufacturing hub, manufacturing facilities will be moving from China to Pakistan around this corridor. The Chinese labor is aging and they need someone to help them keep manufacturing. Plus, such a massive system of highways, railroads, etc will allow Pakistani products and services to go elsewhere too, like Russia, Central Asian states, Eastern Europe, and even to Europe...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no excess of anything on here. Pakistan has good relationships with China, Russia, the ME, Korea, the US, the UK and the French. Not sure where did you think that Pakistan was all Chinese focused and nothing else. If your electric system was working right, you'd be sending billions of Textile products to the EU, due to their GSP Plus designation for Pakistan. Now that's not China. Similarly, with the US, Pakistan enjoys a MNNA status. That's how a lot of times, Pakistan get very capable stuff for like 30-40% of the actual market price!!
> 
> Once the electric issues are restored and businesses start to function, this mess of terrorism is eliminated and stability comes in, you'll also see many billions of investments coming in from the US, UK, etc (the West). Just because a country decided to do a large investment, doesn't mean they are giving Pakistan a favor. They've calculated over a 30% ROI on these projects after breaking even, every year for the next 15-20 years (when Pakistan reaches a level of maturity in her Economic growth).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have NO idea how to respond to the above comment. You think if a country's economy grows and they have say $ 100 or $ 200 billion sitting in their savings account, you don't think they'll increase their defense budget accordingly??? May be I should remind you, you are a country with the fastest growing numbers of Flash lights per year at this time !!!
> 
> By 2018-2019, they are estimating Pakistan's defense budget to be that of Turkey's. And that's ALSO why LM had put Pakistan into its list of "potential customers" starting 2022, for the -35!!!
> 
> Starting around or after 2020, the PAF's size will increase significantly with all 4++ gen fighters (new orders), expect a serious 30%+ growth in numbers. This has nothing to do with what you acquire between now and then. Similarly, the PN's size will easily increase well over 50%. The PN not only has to project force to protect thousands of trade vessels coming to and leaving from Pakistan for trade for China, Russia, etc.
> 
> She also needs to protect over 350 miles wide EEZ, one on side, getting close to Dawarka and Bombay, and on the other side, getting close to the Strait of Homez and Gulf of Oman. This is VERY strategic. Now if the PN had more vessels, it can literally place them within a 100 miles of Dawarka and put a serious watch on one of the much larger Naval bases there. Similarly, the distance allows the PN to avoid any blockade. If the PN had the numbers, it can ALSO block any inbound ships to India from the Gulf of Oman / Strait of Homez too as you won't be too far from it.
> 
> Also, the next obvious step should be to build a big Naval station by Jivani, which is on the border of Iran and Pakistan. And if I remember correctly, its like 20-30 miles from Chahabar. I hope someone from the PN's high command is reading this post as I've outlined a SERIOUS future Naval strategy for the PN  , it offers both a serous deterrence and a serious offensive capability as needed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the last paragraph, there should be careful negotiations. And as the economy grows, so will the defense power too. There is no potential here to blow up in your face. That's a crazy thought!!! I am not even sure where it is coming from. Out of the 6 countries with Flash lights, three are DIRECTLY involved here (China, Russia and Pakistan), so unless someone wants to start WWIII, no one's going to have issues with it. And if the WWIII starts, even if the CPEC didn't exist, everyone should naturally say good bye to their families anyway. Because shiit is going to hit the fan, and a LOT of shiit on a very big, fast running fan



I like the idea of Jiwani base, can you please enlighten us little more on that.


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## Viper0011.

mshahid said:


> I like the idea of Jiwani base, can you please enlighten us little more on that.



If you were to walk on the coastline of Pakistan, from Gawader to Chahabar, its about 80 miles away I think (its been a while I read those analysis so I am not sure if it was 80 or more, but its below 100), so as you walk towards Iran, the last part of the Pakistani coastline is on the border, a town or area called Jiwani. Then you cross into Iran within 20+ miles and in about 40 miles or so, is the port of Chahabar.

Now to monitor and keep in check, any activity from the IN or even activity around the Indian trade, you could build a naval station there and a FOB with a squadron of modern jets. You can keep both Iran and India in check big times. Now in a war if you attacked on Indian ships through long range missiles WITHIN Pakistani airspace....nothing happens in the world. Its a war. 

Second, if you use this base, you could provide backup air and naval defense to Gawader (YET posing a super heavy punch to nearby Chahabar based IN ships or even cargo ships). If you have a squadrons of heavies there, you can even go as far as to the Strait of Homez or Gulf of Oman near Maskit, and pose a no fly zone for any Indian planes and take out ships. Its the end of Pakistan's new EEZ, ending at 350 NM's from the coastline of Pakistan..!!! All good things have started to happen to Pakistan it seems like . This EEZ extension killed the entire "IN blockade" concept. Now PN just need more ships and a separate branch of Coast Guard for Coastal Protection, while the PN gets more ships and extends out its range to 350 NM, from the coastline of Pakistan.

Remember, the Lion in a jungle doesn't have to show up everywhere, majority of the times, its roar makes pretty much all animal get anxious and run away from wherever they were at, thinking the Lion's close by

@Oscar @MastanKhan @Windjammer : what are your thoughts on the above scenario? Heavies are a must have or something like FC-20 would do the trick I am explaining above?

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## Lavrentiy

I definitely agree with POINT No. 1 in the OP. Chinese companies will over take our industry. Our poor industrial base can never hope to compete with the Chinese. Eventually our companies will become toxic and then the Chinese could acquire them at relatively low prices.

The textile sector is extremely vulnerable. Chinese have already started to acquire stakes in a few of our textile units e.g. Masood Textile. As our companies continue to become toxic due to financial distress, the Chinese will easily acquire them at low prices and then rejuvenate these industrial units.

These acquisitions will not be all bad news. Their will be certain advantages like new technology, increased efficiency, increased taxes and may be cheaper goods for customers but the profits will go to mainland China after all.
-----------------------------------------------------------
POINTS No. 2 and 3:
Well these points are the usual expressions of paranoia about NATIONAL SECURITY which has occluded our thought process since this country came into existence. They are not worth any serious comment. (apologizing to the OP)


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## Spectre

Wonder if people are clear on what EEZ Means

In the exclusive economic zone, the coastal State has sovereign rights for the *purpose of* *exploring and exploiting*, *conserving and managing the natural resources*, whether living or non-living, of the waters superjacent to the seabed and of the seabed and its subsoil, and with regard to other activities for the economic exploitation and exploration of the zone, such as the production of energy from the water, currents and winds;

_Article58

Rights and duties of other States in the exclusive economic zone
_
In the exclusive economic zone, *all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy,* subject to the relevant provisions of this Convention, the *freedoms of navigation and overflight* and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, and compatible with the other provisions of this Convention.

PREAMBLE TO THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

*Territorial Sea*

Each coastal State may claim a territorial sea that extends seaward up to 12 nautical miles (nm) from its baselines. The coastal State exercises* sovereignty over its territorial sea, the air space above it, and the seabed and subsoil beneath it.* Foreign flag ships enjoy the right of innocent passage while transiting the territorial sea subject to laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State that are in conformity with the Law of the Sea Convention and other rules of international law relating to such passage.

*EEZ is not the same as Territorial Sea and EEZ does not restrict freedom of navigation and flight. *

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## Sipahi

@Viper0011. It will be a very good scenario for us and it will almost finish the naval benefits of chahbahar port.

Good Idea mate.

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## somebozo

For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.

1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.

CPEC is not an economic corridor between Pakistan and China but it is rather a route which which give China shorter access to Persian Gulf and in return Chinese investments help Pakistan build rail and road infrastructure connecting China, Russia, Central Asia far up to Europe. Cost of manufacturing in China is rising steadily and it must rise for the economic to grow and improve local living standards. Pakistan still has many competitive edges and unlike China & India, Pakistan does not market itself as a cheap pool of labor for global manufacturing. Chinese industrial units operating from Gawader free zone will be more competitive in exports to Middle East than those from mainland China and at the same time create jobs for locals..Chinese Industrial expertise will go long way to develop our own industrial base.

2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.

China is the nearest and cheapest source for many and therefore reliance is bound to happen...just like India has certain reliance on Russia....

3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.

The British and Russians cannot be compared to Chinese because despite British came for trade they still came as aggressor..

So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.

CPEC in the long run will be multinational affair and we will need to beef up defenses and close co op with China and Russia to secure major chunk of world trade moving through our waters and land..

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## Menace2Society

Pakistan must start producing more than donkeys and textiles to take advantage of CPEC routes. Otherwise growth will remain under 5%.


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## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> Wonder if people are clear on what EEZ Means
> 
> In the exclusive economic zone, the coastal State has sovereign rights for the *purpose of* *exploring and exploiting*, *conserving and managing the natural resources*, whether living or non-living, of the waters superjacent to the seabed and of the seabed and its subsoil, and with regard to other activities for the economic exploitation and exploration of the zone, such as the production of energy from the water, currents and winds;
> 
> *EEZ is not the same as Territorial Sea and EEZ does not restrict freedom of navigation and flight. *



Awww, cup cake, couldn't counter my posts (as always) with strategic defense related wisdom, so you brought me these "definitions"??? Every country with an extended coastline, doing any fishing, exploration or ANY activities has a right to protect its citizens. So when Pakistani fishermen and Oil and Gas exploration companies are putting people, machinery and equipment so far out, they need protection and their country of origin provides that protection. That a basic human right by the UN charter.

The US, to provide protection to her ONE citizen, can go to war with another country. That's UN's human rights further modified to apply under the US constitution and add a lot more protection. Similarly, Pakistani citizens doing any work or exploration will be protected by the PN. Now in a war, even more need to protect their citizens so whether you like it or not, the PN will be out there, right on the edge of the 350 mile EEZ as it "wants to ensure the safety of her citizens from anyone meaning harm". I hope you can understand the meaning of what I just quoted 



Menace2Society said:


> Pakistan must start producing more than donkeys and textiles to take advantage of CPEC routes. Otherwise growth will remain under 5%.



Do you have the SLITHEST clue on what's going on in Pakistan? Where the hell did you get Donkeys from, lol  its so stupid!! and not wise at all. Textiles are your country's core products if you can sell them right. The GSP Plus, alone can add many billions to the FOREX.

How old are you? 12? Posts like these put bad image and name for Pakistan out there and people like you don't think before they open their mouth, and in that moment of stupidity, you put a black mark on the entire country!!! I see a British flag in your signatures. I think you should forget about Pakistan and JUST focus on UK, her politics,growth and all. There are plenty of people to worry about Pakistan's growth and it is going in the right direction!!

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## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> Awww, cup cake, couldn't counter my posts (as always) with strategic defense related wisdom, so you brought me these "definitions"??? Every country with an extended coastline, doing any fishing, exploration or ANY activities has a right to protect its citizens. So when Pakistani fishermen and Oil and Gas exploration companies are putting people, machinery and equipment so far out, they need protection and their country of origin provides that protection. That a basic human right by the UN charter.
> 
> The US, to provide protection to her ONE citizen, can go to war with another country. That's UN's human rights further modified to apply under the US constitution and add a lot more protection. Similarly, Pakistani citizens doing any work or exploration will be protected by the PN. Now in a war, even more need to protect their citizens so whether you like it or not, the PN will be out there, right on the edge of the 350 mile EEZ as it "wants to ensure the safety of her citizens from anyone meaning harm". I hope you can understand the meaning of what I just quoted



Sure protect your citizens as much as you want. Indian ships will be just sailing by peacefully. The important part is you can't enforce a no fly zone or deny freedom of movement of Indian warships.

Right till the war is declared Indian ships will be lurking in your EEZ and right outside your territorial boundaries which is 12 nautical miles or just 22.4 Kms. Once the war is declared then well BOOM!!!

Rest is all just gravy.

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## somebozo

Viper0011. said:


> Any infrastructure development that can connect a poor country of 200 million people, without electricity, businesses or a strong economy, to a market of over 1.6+ billion people (China, Russia, some Central Russian States, Europe, etc), can NEVER be bad. I can write a book on the benefits of such a trade route. Be a critic, you are entitled to your opinion, but form your opinion based on actual, hard facts. Unless we are talking about a Movie, or Music or if you like Toyota better than a Mercedez, those are all personal feelings. This topic right here, requires serious facts as someone decided to invest $ 46 billion into Pakistan and Pakistan, decided to provide a full port to the investors. There are a LOT of complexities involved here beyond simple comprehension, so facts are required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The good from Chin are ALREADY flooding the Pakistani market, the American, the French, the Dubai and every other market. Small needles, to writing Pen's, to now Jets are build in China. So this route won't pour anything more into Pakistani markets than there already is. You can't supply more stuff to a city or a country that's beyond people's buying power or reach. In fact, this road will make Chinese products cheaper as the shipping and flying routes are being cut much shorter and replaced with ordinary trucks.
> 
> This entire corridor is the future manufacturing hub, manufacturing facilities will be moving from China to Pakistan around this corridor. The Chinese labor is aging and they need someone to help them keep manufacturing. Plus, such a massive system of highways, railroads, etc will allow Pakistani products and services to go elsewhere too, like Russia, Central Asian states, Eastern Europe, and even to Europe...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no excess of anything on here. Pakistan has good relationships with China, Russia, the ME, Korea, the US, the UK and the French. Not sure where did you think that Pakistan was all Chinese focused and nothing else. If your electric system was working right, you'd be sending billions of Textile products to the EU, due to their GSP Plus designation for Pakistan. Now that's not China. Similarly, with the US, Pakistan enjoys a MNNA status. That's how a lot of times, Pakistan get very capable stuff for like 30-40% of the actual market price!!
> 
> Once the electric issues are restored and businesses start to function, this mess of terrorism is eliminated and stability comes in, you'll also see many billions of investments coming in from the US, UK, etc (the West). Just because a country decided to do a large investment, doesn't mean they are giving Pakistan a favor. They've calculated over a 30% ROI on these projects after breaking even, every year for the next 15-20 years (when Pakistan reaches a level of maturity in her Economic growth).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have NO idea how to respond to the above comment. You think if a country's economy grows and they have say $ 100 or $ 200 billion sitting in their savings account, you don't think they'll increase their defense budget accordingly??? May be I should remind you, you are a country with the fastest growing numbers of Flash lights per year at this time !!!
> 
> By 2018-2019, they are estimating Pakistan's defense budget to be that of Turkey's. And that's ALSO why LM had put Pakistan into its list of "potential customers" starting 2022, for the -35!!!
> 
> Starting around or after 2020, the PAF's size will increase significantly with all 4++ gen fighters (new orders), expect a serious 30%+ growth in numbers. This has nothing to do with what you acquire between now and then. Similarly, the PN's size will easily increase well over 50%. The PN not only has to project force to protect thousands of trade vessels coming to and leaving from Pakistan for trade for China, Russia, etc.
> 
> She also needs to protect over 350 miles wide EEZ, one on side, getting close to Dawarka and Bombay, and on the other side, getting close to the Strait of Homez and Gulf of Oman. This is VERY strategic. Now if the PN had more vessels, it can literally place them within a 100 miles of Dawarka and put a serious watch on one of the much larger Naval bases there. Similarly, the distance allows the PN to avoid any blockade. If the PN had the numbers, it can ALSO block any inbound ships to India from the Gulf of Oman / Strait of Homez too as you won't be too far from it.
> 
> Also, the next obvious step should be to build a big Naval station by Jivani, which is on the border of Iran and Pakistan. And if I remember correctly, its like 20-30 miles from Chahabar. I hope someone from the PN's high command is reading this post as I've outlined a SERIOUS future Naval strategy for the PN  , it offers both a serous deterrence and a serious offensive capability as needed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the last paragraph, there should be careful negotiations. And as the economy grows, so will the defense power too. There is no potential here to blow up in your face. That's a crazy thought!!! I am not even sure where it is coming from. Out of the 6 countries with Flash lights, three are DIRECTLY involved here (China, Russia and Pakistan), so unless someone wants to start WWIII, no one's going to have issues with it. And if the WWIII starts, even if the CPEC didn't exist, everyone should naturally say good bye to their families anyway. Because shiit is going to hit the fan, and a LOT of shiit on a very big, fast running fan



I have always said that PN needs a massive force build up it need to see regional security with international power projection capabilities..pakistan has a narrow and highly strategic coast line and PN needs capabilities to enforce sea denial on its adversary India...in even to war..


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## Menace2Society

Viper0011. said:


> Do you have the SLITHEST clue on what's going on in Pakistan? Where the hell did you get Donkeys from, lol  its so stupid!! and not wise at all. Textiles are your country's core products if you can sell them right. The GSP Plus, alone can add many billions to the FOREX.
> 
> How old are you? 12? Posts like these put bad image and name for Pakistan out there and people like you don't think before they open their mouth, and in that moment of stupidity, you put a black mark on the entire country!!! I see a British flag in your signatures. I think you should forget about Pakistan and JUST focus on UK, her politics,growth and all. There are plenty of people to worry about Pakistan's growth and it is going in the right direction!!



If we look at countries like Vietnam, Brazil and South Africa they all have strong exports and are making stuff.

Consider Brazil, minus their oil and mineral exports it is roughly $75bn. Pakistan is $30bn. 

Brazil has the same population as Pakistan but are on the move.

This is isn't putting things in a bad light, its reality. What we should be discussing is how to improve exports.

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## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> Sure protect your citizens as much as you want. Indian ships will be just sailing by peacefully. The important part is you can't enforce a no fly zone or deny freedom of movement of Indian warships. Rest is all just gravy.



The proof is ALWAYS in the Pudding i.e., the Gravy!!!! And yes, ANYONE with a few dozen modern jets, over their own EEZ, in a WAR, with about 50 mid-sized advanced Naval ships and submarines, can successfully implement a no fly zone. Now add the Jiwani port where you'd have long range SAM tier also, you can pose an ADF zone, which in a way enforces a no fly zone, and shoots down as needed. 

Try crossing towards Alaska from the Russian Gulf of Anadyr, your jet may be blown into shrapnels before you could ever see "Bering Strait" or "Alaska Waters" on your GPS. That's the beauty of an air-force, navy and land defense assets working in a Net-Centric warfare environment.


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## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> The proof is ALWAYS in the Pudding i.e., the Gravy!!!! And yes, ANYONE with a few dozen modern jets, over their own EEZ, in a WAR, with about 50 mid-sized advanced Naval ships and submarines, can successfully implement a no fly zone. Now add the Jiwani port where you'd have long range SAM tier also, you can pose an ADF zone, which in a way enforces a no fly zone, and shoots down as needed.
> 
> Try crossing towards Alaska from the Russian Gulf of Anadyr, your jet may be blown into shrapnels before you could ever see "Bering Strait" or "Alaska Waters" on your GPS. That's the beauty of an air-force, navy and land defense assets working in a Net-Centric warfare environment.



Blah Blah Blah.

You can't enforce a No fly zone or deny Indian Ships freedom of movement in your EEZ under UNCLOS. Indian ships can get as close as 24 Kms and there is nothing you can do unless you want to be in violation of UN Treaty which you have ratified.

Fact of that matter is your ports are toast if their is war if you look at IN assets. There is no way you can prevent them for coming as close 24 Kms in peace time due to UNCLOS and in times of war well good luck with IN ships 24 kms from your shores.

Now shoo!

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## Viper0011.

Menace2Society said:


> If we look at countries like Vietnam, Brazil and South Africa they all have strong exports and are making stuff.
> 
> Consider Brazil, minus their oil and mineral exports it is roughly $75bn. Pakistan is $30bn.
> 
> Brazil has the same population as Pakistan but are on the move.
> 
> This is isn't putting things in a bad light, its reality. What we should be discussing is how to improve exports.



The argument makes NO sense. The top economy, the US for one example, is a SERVICES based economy. We don't make anything besides the military stuff. And if we do make something like Beef, etc, we export majority of it. Everything comes from China, India, Pakistan, Holland, Bangladesh, Norway, Denmark, France, Mexico and all. 

If you have educated labor, use that and your location which will get you the revenue and growth you need. Why would you want to grow a cow when you are three years away from getting Milk???  

Pakistan has agriculture and other things like the Textile and all but you can't be everything. How did India grow? Through their labor services. Pakistan has 110-120 MEN ages between 16-23 ages, meaning they have 30 years of work life left in them by the time they get to retire. 

Your government knows that very well. In fact, and they want to make Pakistan a services economy. And you have more benefits in doing so. For example, the US is a services economy. But since China, Europe, India, Pakistan are too far, stuff gets here a bit expensive due to the cost. But in Pakistan's case, if you got your 20-40 million people employed in Technology, Healthcare and Engineering sectors supporting the globe (like India is doing), you can get everything else (like products, etc) from the Chinese, for MUCH cheaper than the US as you are next door and connected through the road!!!

Today, Pakistan's checking account OFFICIALLY crossed $ 20 billion in savings, in addition to your Foreign reserves in Gold, Dollars and Euros. So the people who took it to $ 20 BILLION from a near bankrupt $ 11 MILLION ONLY....have a really good strategy and it is working. 

Instead of pissing the Chinese, the US and others off with stupid remarks that I've seen on here, do your hard work. From this point on, Failure or Success lies SOLELY on the Pakistani nation and people. You be lazy and don't do the hard work and just talk, no one can help you change your destiny. If you get up for once and do the hard work needed, your country's services will be used in the US, the UK, Australia, Europe, the ME, etc. Making you third largest destination for IT, Medical, BPO and Engineering work. But you got to trust the people and your system who are delivering and do the hard work!!!



Spectre said:


> *You can't enforce a No fly zone or deny Indian Ships freedom of movement in your EEZ under UNCLOS*!



The ONLY way to find out is to try it 

Where does the UN charter says to threat and use the Flash lights against each other or attack each other? You think anyone will care for the UN's charter  . You are smarter than that. The UN comes in to broker the deal when both the parties are exhausted and a threshold is about to be crossed!!!!

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## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> The ONLY way to find out is to try it
> 
> Where does the UN charter says to threat and use the Flash lights against each other or attack each other? You think anyone will care for the UN's charter  . You are smarter than that. The UN comes in to broker the deal when both the parties are exhausted and a threshold is about to be crossed!!!!



Yeah then why harp about the benefits of EEZ in *defense/military* terms continuously like a broken record when infact there are none????? On one hand you are relying on EEZ which is defined by UNCLOS to make your point when rebutted you then call the said treaty irrelevant.

Grow Up Man!!



Viper0011. said:


> This EEZ extension killed the entire "IN blockade" concept. Now PN just need more ships and a separate branch of Coast Guard for Coastal Protection, while the PN gets more ships and extends out its range to 350 NM, from the coastline of Pakistan.

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## Sipahi

Spectre said:


> Wonder if people are clear on what EEZ Means
> 
> In the exclusive economic zone, the coastal State has sovereign rights for the *purpose of* *exploring and exploiting*, *conserving and managing the natural resources*, whether living or non-living, of the waters superjacent to the seabed and of the seabed and its subsoil, and with regard to other activities for the economic exploitation and exploration of the zone, such as the production of energy from the water, currents and winds;
> 
> _Article58
> 
> Rights and duties of other States in the exclusive economic zone
> _
> In the exclusive economic zone, *all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy,* subject to the relevant provisions of this Convention, the *freedoms of navigation and overflight* and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, and compatible with the other provisions of this Convention.
> 
> PREAMBLE TO THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA
> 
> *Territorial Sea*
> 
> Each coastal State may claim a territorial sea that extends seaward up to 12 nautical miles (nm) from its baselines. The coastal State exercises* sovereignty over its territorial sea, the air space above it, and the seabed and subsoil beneath it.* Foreign flag ships enjoy the right of innocent passage while transiting the territorial sea subject to laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State that are in conformity with the Law of the Sea Convention and other rules of international law relating to such passage.
> 
> *EEZ is not the same as Territorial Sea and EEZ does not restrict freedom of navigation and flight. *



Will UN allow us to build a nawal station at Jiwani which is on our own land and our own sea ?? 

And Will UN allow us to park a frigates or subs in our EEZ waters ??


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## Spectre

mshahid said:


> Will UN allow us to build a nawal station at Jiwani which is on our own land and our own sea ??
> 
> And Will UN allow us to park a frigates or subs in our EEZ waters ??



Yes. Your point being? I was informing the uniformed gentry out here that EEZ is useless for defense/military/naval purposes.


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## Viper0011.

Spectre said:


> Yeah then why harp about the benefits of EEZ in *defense/military* terms continuously like a broken record when infact there are none????? On one hand you are relying on EEZ which is defined by UNCLOS to make your point when rebutted you then call the said treaty irrelevant.
> 
> Grow Up Man!!



That's all you can come up with? Allow me to REMIND you, the SAME UN you are gloriously using here to your benefit, you've abused their declarations on Kashmir since 1950's!!! As of today, you have such a large number of Army vs. local Civilian ratio that no where in the entire world it can be found. A staggering 7 Indian Army men to 1 Civilian!!!! And you call Kashmir "a part of India"???? I don't think you need to appoint 7 Army men to control "1" Civilian if it REALLY was a part of your country and people had allegiance to the Indian flag. 

Why is it that I can see you youtube, any political rally in Kashmir has PLENTY of Pakistani flags. But I've YET to see a rally in Baluchistan or Pakistani Kashmir, showing a rally with Indian flags???? People use flags to show allegiance right???? So the Kashmir you guys vehemently call "a part of our India" has Pakistani flags getting waved in it during any or every public protest....WHILE you have 7 Indian Army soldiers vs. 1 Kashmiri Civilian>>????   . What's wrong with the picture? This isn't a part of your country or everyone would be loyal to India, like its in Bombay, Delhi, Chinai, and everywhere else!!!

So ONE maharaja, for his religious affiliation with Indian Hindus, put 91% of the Kashmiri population under the Indian rule WHEN, 91% of the people, in an open and fair election told the world they wanted to remain an independence state. That wasn't blowing off all UN charters and demands? And when the UN told you to allow the majority of the people their electoral voting rights.....what did you guys do?? You didn't act on ANY UN declarations and a few years ago, through influence, you finally forced them to become a much lower level title than UN declarations!!! 

Is supporting mass terrorism inside Pakistan a UN mandate???? Is financially and weapons wise supporting Taliban and other terrorist extremists, who have killed thousands in Pakistan, including hundreds of CHILDREN....was a UN mandate??? NO!!! 

YOU grow up man!

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## Spectre

Viper0011. said:


> That's all you can come up with? Allow me to REMIND you, the SAME UN you are gloriously using here to your benefit, you've abused their declarations on Kashmir since 1950's!!! As of today, you have such a large number of Army vs. local Civilian ratio that no where in the entire world it can be found. A staggering 7 Indian Army men to 1 Civilian!!!! And you call Kashmir "a part of India"???? I don't think you need to appoint 7 Army men to control "1" Civilian if it REALLY was a part of your country and people had allegiance to the Indian flag.
> 
> Why is it that I can see you youtube, any political rally in Kashmir has PLENTY of Pakistani flags. But I've YET to see a rally in Baluchistan or Pakistani Kashmir, showing a rally with Indian flags???? People use flags to show allegiance right???? So the Kashmir you guys vehemently call "a part of our India" has Pakistani flags getting waved in it during any or every public protest....WHILE you have 7 Indian Army soldiers vs. 1 Kashmiri Civilian>>????   . What's wrong with the picture? This isn't a part of your country or everyone would be loyal to India, like its in Bombay, Delhi, Chinai, and everywhere else!!!
> 
> So ONE maharaja, for his religious affiliation with Indian Hindus, put 91% of the Kashmiri population under the Indian rule WHEN, 91% of the people, in an open and fair election told the world they wanted to remain an independence state. That wasn't blowing off all UN charters and demands? And when the UN told you to allow the majority of the people their electoral voting rights.....what did you guys do?? You didn't act on ANY UN declarations and a few years ago, through influence, you finally forced them to become a much lower level title than UN declarations!!!
> 
> Is supporting mass terrorism inside Pakistan a UN mandate???? Is financially and weapons wise supporting Taliban and other terrorist extremists, who have killed thousands in Pakistan, including hundreds of CHILDREN....was a UN mandate??? NO!!!
> 
> YOU grow up man!



Try again this time restrict yourself to relevance or lack there of EEZ for purposes of Naval Warfare/Defense and Military.

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## Shamain

Al-Taïr said:


> For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.
> 
> 1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.
> 
> 2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.
> 
> 3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.
> 
> So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.
> 
> by MECH
> 
> (+ve,-ve, neutral) reviews & views are welcomed




So much awkwardly writtn bullsh1t.



Spectre said:


> Blah Blah Blah.
> 
> You can't enforce a No fly zone or deny Indian Ships freedom of movement in your EEZ under UNCLOS. Indian ships can get as close as 24 Kms and there is nothing you can do unless you want to be in violation of UN Treaty which you have ratified.
> 
> Fact of that matter is your ports are toast if their is war if you look at IN assets. There is no way you can prevent them for coming as close 24 Kms in peace time due to UNCLOS and in times of war well good luck with IN ships 24 kms from your shores.
> 
> Now shoo!


And the true warmngering face of pretentious Spectre is showing.

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## Sipahi

Spectre said:


> Yes. Your point being? I was informing the uniformed gentry out here that EEZ is useless for defense/military/naval purposes.



If we can built a naval station at Jiwani and we can park some 2 subs and 2,3 frigates at the gate of dwarka ... What more a Pakistan can ask 

Good Luck Mumbai


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## VelocuR

What did Pakistan achieve last 50+ years? They managed our economy terribly and very slow but we now always prefer China's way of thinking, capabilities, and economy master.


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## Spectre

mshahid said:


> If we can built a naval station at Jiwani and we can park some 2 subs and 2,3 frigates at the gate of dwarka ... What more a Pakistan can ask
> 
> Good Luck Mumbai



Just for my benefit can you quote the actual distance b/w Mumbai/Dwarka and Jiwani.

Edit: From Dwarka it is 700 or so Kms and from Mumbai it is 1300 kms - hardly at the gates. 



Shamain said:


> And the true warmngering face of pretentious Spectre is showing.



Ok, where did I advocate war?


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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> If you were to walk on the coastline of Pakistan, from Gawader to Chahabar, its about 80 miles away I think (its been a while I read those analysis so I am not sure if it was 80 or more, but its below 100), so as you walk towards Iran, the last part of the Pakistani coastline is on the border, a town or area called Jiwani. Then you cross into Iran within 20+ miles and in about 40 miles or so, is the port of Chahabar.
> 
> Now to monitor and keep in check, any activity from the IN or even activity around the Indian trade, you could build a naval station there and a FOB with a squadron of modern jets. You can keep both Iran and India in check big times. Now in a war if you attacked on Indian ships through long range missiles WITHIN Pakistani airspace....nothing happens in the world. Its a war.
> 
> Second, if you use this base, you could provide backup air and naval defense to Gawader (YET posing a super heavy punch to nearby Chahabar based IN ships or even cargo ships). If you have a squadrons of heavies there, you can even go as far as to the Strait of Homez or Gulf of Oman near Maskit, and pose a no fly zone for any Indian planes and take out ships. Its the end of Pakistan's new EEZ, ending at 350 NM's from the coastline of Pakistan..!!! All good things have started to happen to Pakistan it seems like . This EEZ extension killed the entire "IN blockade" concept. Now PN just need more ships and a separate branch of Coast Guard for Coastal Protection, while the PN gets more ships and extends out its range to 350 NM, from the coastline of Pakistan.
> 
> Remember, the Lion in a jungle doesn't have to show up everywhere, majority of the times, its roar makes pretty much all animal get anxious and run away from wherever they were at, thinking the Lion's close by
> 
> @Oscar @MastanKhan @Windjammer : what are your thoughts on the above scenario? Heavies are a must have or something like FC-20 would do the trick I am explaining above?



Hi,

Thanks for the tag-----. Air Commodore Haider in his interview stated that the IAF with its long ranged aircraft can and will strike Pakistan entering from the border of iran.

And long before his statement---I been saying on this board---that if commitment is made for Gwadar-----then there is no reason for PAF not to have long range strike aircraft.

These aircraft to be based in Pasni---a new air port at Gwadar---@Dalbandin---and even @Shamsi air base----. This covers the crucial Pakistani flank and it also gives it the opportunity to strike at the indian flank----.

Pakistan will have to have a Garison at Gwadar with at least 2 division strength----light and heavy combined----and at least 2 sqdrns of aircraft in that area.

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## Donald Trump

Pakistan has been refusing to give MFN status to India for the reason that cheap and better quality Indian goods will flood Pakistan's markets destroying local industry. *That's exactly what is going to happen when Chinese goods start flooding Pakistan's markets when the CPEC opens for business.* 

*The fact is that the Chinese are making this 'economic corridor' for their own strategic and national interests*. Their strategic aim is to establish a PLAAN base at Gwadar to try and dominate the Strait of Hormuz from where a large proportion of the world’s oil flows. Not only the Strait of Hormuz but also to try and dominate the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean.* The CPEC is the only viable option for providing logistics support to their future naval base at Gwadar. *

*Pakistan is just a side show in this project.* The sooner this is realized by the Pakistanis, the better. All this talk of them achieving super power status due to the CPEC is a lot of bull and hot air - unfortunately!


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## Sipahi

Spectre said:


> Just for my benefit can you quote the actual distance b/w Mumbai/Dwarka and Jiwani.
> 
> Edit: From Dwarka it is 700 or so Kms and from Mumbai it is 1300 kms - hardly at the gates.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, where did I advocate war?



Jewani to Chahbahar it is below 100 KM.






Mumbai and Dwarka are on the eastern side, and after enhanced EEZ waters our navy can sail very near to the cities



Donald Trump said:


> Pakistan has been refusing to give MFN status to India for the reason that cheap and better quality Indian goods will flood Pakistan's markets destroying local industry. *That's exactly what is going to happen when Chinese goods start flooding Pakistan's markets when the CPEC opens for business.*
> 
> *The fact is that the Chinese are making this 'economic corridor' for their own strategic and national interests*. Their strategic aim is to establish a PLAAN base at Gwadar to try and dominate the Strait of Hormuz from where a large proportion of the world’s oil flows. Not only the Strait of Hormuz but also to try and dominate the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean.* The CPEC is the only viable option for providing logistics support to their future naval base at Gwadar. *
> 
> *Pakistan is just a side show in this project.* The sooner this is realized by the Pakistanis, the better. All this talk of them achieving super power status due to the CPEC is a lot of bull and hot air - unfortunately!



*Accept it* that we like China more then you and we will not ever, I repeat ever be like Bangladesh or Nepal.

and you can't bully us baby


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## Spectre

mshahid said:


> Jewani to Chahbahar it is below 100 KM.
> 
> Mumbai and Dwarka are on the eastern side, and after enhanced EEZ waters our navy can sail very near to the cities



How is Chabahar pertinent here? Chabahar is not connected to IN or IAF in anyway. It is an Iranian port which India is funding i.e. all. Iran will never let IN or IAF set up a base.

You don't need enhanced EEZ for military purposes - your navy can sail close by to Indian cities - atleast as close as 12 nm or 24 kms with EEZ or without EEZ. This is the point I have been at pains to explain repeatedly in this thread.


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## Sipahi

Spectre said:


> How is Chabahar pertinent here? Chabahar is not connected to IN or IAF in anyway. It is an Iranian port which India is funding i.e. all. Iran will never let IN or IAF set up a base.
> 
> You don't need enhanced EEZ for military purposes - your navy can sail close by to Indian cities - atleast as close as 12 nm or 24 kms with EEZ or without EEZ. This is the point I have been at pains to explain repeatedly in this thread.



What I realize from the starting of the chahbahar port most of the Indian are screaming that it will be used by IN for encircling Pakistan.

@Viper0011. was also making the point that if Indian army setting up a naval base out there the minimum we can do is to setup a naval base at Jewani


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## Spectre

mshahid said:


> What I realize from the starting of the chahbahar port most of the Indian are screaming that it will be used by IN for encircling Pakistan.



Most of those Indians are just trolling or daydreaming.

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## Sipahi

Spectre said:


> Most of those Indians are just trolling or daydreaming.



I hope they are,


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## SrNair

Maravan said:


> Exactly.



Shit .Forget the morons in centre, what is this TN govt is doing ?
Stop all those Chinese cheap items from our soil.


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## Echo_419

Atanz said:


> Yes, your right. It's just a road. Just strip of tarmac. Just a ribbon. What will it do? Well it will flood the Pakistani market. It will destroy our industry. So what is good about it?
> 
> Everything. The problem with Pakistan is we have stuck our heads up our backsides. This has allowed the world to move on while we are still sat there in our villages swatting flies. Have you ever thought why a country of 200 million people has exports less than 3 million Ireland?
> 
> Where is our so called industry? Well we don't have industry like most of the world. We have parasites going as industry. Now this is how "parasite industry" works. The elite make the poor go abroad to slave away in Saudia Arabia or other countries. The billions that comes to Pakistan then is spent on cars, motorbikes, houses, food, fridges, electrical products etc.
> 
> Then the elite create a import restriction that either stops anything being imported or attracts high taxes. That means when you want to buy a car, fridge etc you can't buy it from abroad. Then the ruling elite give a licence to one of their favourites to make friidges. The factory that makes fridges can be utterly inefficent and the fridge could be rubbish but it still sells because onsumers have no choice. So these lame duck industries that really are just parasites and survive because of regulated market keep making money for the elite.
> 
> Comes alonng CPEC. destroys these industries. Consumer get choice. If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese? If our industry shuts it is because it was incompetant parasite. As industry shuts down that effects the market. The Chinese companies will soon start moving their prodiction units along the CPEC to supply local market as well as abroad. This then over time introduces nerw ideas, new ways of running things and introdices competion. Over time some of our people start comepting and the best go on to then compete with the world. This is why CPEC is good for us in the long run.



Agreed but there is 1 little problem,before opening up your market you(Pakistan) must have some kind of Industrial capacity,like some products where you are good (textiles I think is your strong point)



dadeechi said:


> *Good thoughtful* *critique.
> 
> On the 3rd point, if CPEC is deemed potentially successful then there is potential risk that Pakistan could become a play ground between West on one side and Russia/China on the other side.
> 
> Pakistan could become another Ukraine or Syria.
> *



That's for Pakistan to decide, if you become a strong power than the possibility of that happening is less


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## NIA

Maravan said:


> Yes sometimes it happens and the local industries got crushed, once a small town in tamil nadu contributed to 90% of fireworks production of entire India. After chinese fireworks entered, now even well renowned local industries informed their workers they are going to shut the factory for 3months. Our local manufacturers made fireworks from aluminium powder which is less inflammable and costly, chinese fireworks are made of potassium powder which is highly inflammable and cheap.
> 
> The same town was flourishing in printing as well due to the fireworks production and contributed more than 60% of India's entire printing works, now everything got a big hit.
> 
> Ensure that you don't allow products which are well available in the local market to save your local industrial base.


OFF TOPIC: AP govt is looking to BAN chinese fireworks because ....patassium fumes are *dangerous* ( if inhaled)and causes pollution.


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## black-hawk_101

Al-Taïr said:


> For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.
> 
> 1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.
> 
> 2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.
> 
> 3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.
> 
> So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.
> 
> by MECH
> 
> (+ve,-ve, neutral) reviews & views are welcomed


Does CPEC include making of:
Industries
Business Centers
Real Estate Buildings like they way Hong Kong/Singapore is?

I am sure giving a house to everyone there is not possible at all. Rather, it's better to build building of 30+ stories there in.


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## Viper0011.

Donald Trump said:


> Pakistan has been refusing to give MFN status to India for the reason that cheap and better quality Indian goods will flood Pakistan's markets destroying local industry. *That's exactly what is going to happen when Chinese goods start flooding Pakistan's markets when the CPEC opens for business.*
> 
> *The fact is that the Chinese are making this 'economic corridor' for their own strategic and national interests*. Their strategic aim is to establish a PLAAN base at Gwadar to try and dominate the Strait of Hormuz from where a large proportion of the world’s oil flows. Not only the Strait of Hormuz but also to try and dominate the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean.* The CPEC is the only viable option for providing logistics support to their future naval base at Gwadar. *
> 
> *Pakistan is just a side show in this project.* The sooner this is realized by the Pakistanis, the better. All this talk of them achieving super power status due to the CPEC is a lot of bull and hot air - unfortunately!



 the more progress is being made on CPEC, the more and more interesting posts are being written by the Indian members on here and through the Indian media.

This isn't the FIRST trade corridor that the China has built. There are others too. And based on the economic data and research, I've yet to see the local markets getting destroyed with the Chinese products. So What you and other members say about CPEC, we call it "Red Lining". Meaning, scaring people off due to something or someone's actions opposite to the actual reality!!!

Not giving MFN status to India makes perfect sense. Who would want to do that when the other country is DYING to involve you in a "limited warfare" so that they can destroy the country economic progress and push it back by 20 years? And the country looking for the MFN status is too busy spreading terror in the other country, including killing young children who have NO conflict with anyone!!!! and  logic!!!


The CPEC will take Pakistan's goods and services, and Chinese goods to across the globe. Chinese have a language issue. India doesn't and that's why her economy has grown so much. Today, Indian IT, Medical and Engineering labor works in almost every modern country. Well, Pakistan has over 110-120 million male population between 16 and 23, and just like India, there is English in Pakistan too. Specially the younger generation speaks it very well. 

20-30 million of these men and women, working in Engineering, Medical and IT professions across the globe, through the Chinese influence initially will change Pakistan's entire landscape in the next 10-15 years, just like how India's been transformed since 1995 with the US's help. So the Chinese are doing the same for Pakistan. No need to panic, but do get ready for a head on, tooth to nail labor competition with the Pakistanis in terms of IT, Medical, Research, Engineering and all . The SAME Pakistan you want to have a limited war with, you won't be able to look them straight in their eyes, due to their power projection in 2025. I can stamp on this and wait for ten years to see how right I was!



black-hawk_101 said:


> Does CPEC include making of:
> Industries
> Business Centers
> Real Estate Buildings like they way Hong Kong/Singapore is?
> 
> I am sure giving a house to everyone there is not possible at all. Rather, it's better to build building of 30+ stories there in.



ALL the above!!!! If you have over 2 million trucks and plus, Pakistan's own, regular traffic going through a highway, common sense will tell you, you'll need gas stations to get oil and diesel for these vehicles, you'll need mechanic shops, restaurants so people can stop and have lunch or dinners, truck stops, hotels, and obviously, people owning or running these businesses will stay close in instead of driving every day from a near city 4 hours away, so that means housing will be needed, hospitals and schools come automatically. 

The US's economy's growth was solely dependent upon her highway system Al-Gore's father conceptualize in late 1950's. The land becomes super expensive around a high announced to be built as people know their agriculture land will now host the above, homes, commercial and master planned communities. So you want to make money in real estate, go follow the highway. You'll never lose money!!!In Lahore, around the Ring Road, some of the remote areas were cheaper just a few years ago. Now, the prices have gone WAY up. I was looking at a Real Estate report about Pakistan and India. Similarly, in Bangalore, even a 1000 SQFT apartment has become very expensive inside the city limits. So when there is infrastructure put in and jobs exist, the Real Estate jumps up!!!


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## Al-Taïr

Atanz said:


> Yes, your right. It's just a road. Just strip of tarmac. Just a ribbon. What will it do? Well it will flood the Pakistani market. It will destroy our industry. So what is good about it?
> 
> Everything. The problem with Pakistan is we have stuck our heads up our backsides. This has allowed the world to move on while we are still sat there in our villages swatting flies. Have you ever thought why a country of 200 million people has exports less than 3 million Ireland?
> 
> Where is our so called industry? Well we don't have industry like most of the world. We have parasites going as industry. Now this is how "parasite industry" works. The elite make the poor go abroad to slave away in Saudia Arabia or other countries. The billions that comes to Pakistan then is spent on cars, motorbikes, houses, food, fridges, electrical products etc.
> 
> Then the elite create a import restriction that either stops anything being imported or attracts high taxes. That means when you want to buy a car, fridge etc you can't buy it from abroad. Then the ruling elite give a licence to one of their favourites to make friidges. The factory that makes fridges can be utterly inefficent and the fridge could be rubbish but it still sells because onsumers have no choice. So these lame duck industries that really are just parasites and survive because of regulated market keep making money for the elite.
> 
> Comes alonng CPEC. destroys these industries. Consumer get choice. If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese? If our industry shuts it is because it was incompetant parasite. As industry shuts down that effects the market. The Chinese companies will soon start moving their prodiction units along the CPEC to supply local market as well as abroad. This then over time introduces nerw ideas, new ways of running things and introdices competion. Over time some of our people start comepting and the best go on to then compete with the world. This is why CPEC is good for us in the long run.


. 


Comes alonng CPEC. destroys these industries. Consumer get choice. If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese? If our industry shuts it is because it was incompetant parasite. As industry shuts down that effects the market. The Chinese companies will soon start moving their prodiction units along the CPEC to supply local market as well as abroad. This then over time introduces nerw ideas, new ways of running things and introdices competion. Over time some of our people start com. epting and the best go on to then compete with the world. This is why CPEC is good for us in the long run.[/QUOTE]

Problem with your argument here is that you think too high of our industries, do u really think our products can compete with chinese' .... If their products comming all they way via south china sea, are hitting our industries .. what do u think would happen to our local industries Then... 
so, what would be the point in exports if they give a slight portion of profits as tax and keep the rest, & in resturn we shut our local industries for them

And if we let them or any other forigners set up their industries with 100% forign shared/stakes. & let them keep the money in forign banks, and import forign technical,professional work force, we will be forign slaves in our own country..


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## 大汉奸柳传志

Maravan said:


> Yes sometimes it happens and the local industries got crushed, once a small town in tamil nadu contributed to 90% of fireworks production of entire India. After chinese fireworks entered, now even well renowned local industries informed their workers they are going to shut the factory for 3months. Our local manufacturers made fireworks from aluminium powder which is less inflammable and costly, chinese fireworks are made of potassium powder which is highly inflammable and cheap.
> 
> The same town was flourishing in printing as well due to the fireworks production and contributed more than 60% of India's entire printing works, now everything got a big hit.
> 
> Ensure that you don't allow products which are well available in the local market to save your local industrial base.



Sounds like 19th century all over again when machine made textiles from Britain flooding Indian market！！ 

But seriously，the local industries should change their ways in order to stay competitive，India will never grow if the govt keeps this trade protectionism mindset.


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## cirr

Whazzup said:


> Well but the OP is right about capturing the market nonetheless. I understand it will raise the bar for industry in Pakistan but still will Pakistan's industry will grow?....No
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheap Chinese Products: Destroying Indian Producers
> 
> How will Pakistan's industry gonna progress when they will gonna loose the demand for their products?
> 
> P.S Sir plz reply to me and not my flag



Buying expensive American weapons with your extremely limited hard currency reserve is destroying your extremely limited defence industry。

Stop buying foreign weapons and start making your own，starting from bloody rifles。

By the way，India should also stop all manners of Chinese investments in India which are absolutely destroying your local industries as I write these words。


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## Capt_ghalib

Does China require Pakistan's Scientific technology, expert labour or funds? Answer is big NO! All they need is an alternative/shortest route to middle east and it is the smartness of Chinese government that they have projected themselves as if they are doing it out of love and friendship to prop up Pakistan's economy and gullible people are eagerly lapping it up. 
To those who are dreaming that China (even few) will shift its industries to the corridor my advice is wake up and smell the coffee. With the general slowdown in world economy that would be the last thing any nation with surplus labor and huge population would do, getting employment for Chinese people would be their first priority. All they want is your natural resources and a route to dump their products in middle east in a cost effective way. 
Purane bazaar ka halwai agar Mc donalds ko apni dukaan ke aage thela lagane ki jagah dega to kuch dino mein uske samoso par makhia hi bhinkegi. Sooner or later McD will take over halwai and employ him for waiting on tables.


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## indushek

Atanz said:


> Yes, your right. It's just a road. Just strip of tarmac. Just a ribbon. What will it do? Well it will flood the Pakistani market. It will destroy our industry. So what is good about it?
> 
> Everything. The problem with Pakistan is we have stuck our heads up our backsides. This has allowed the world to move on while we are still sat there in our villages swatting flies. Have you ever thought why a country of 200 million people has exports less than 3 million Ireland?
> 
> Where is our so called industry? Well we don't have industry like most of the world. We have parasites going as industry. Now this is how "parasite industry" works. The elite make the poor go abroad to slave away in Saudia Arabia or other countries. The billions that comes to Pakistan then is spent on cars, motorbikes, houses, food, fridges, electrical products etc.
> 
> Then the elite create a import restriction that either stops anything being imported or attracts high taxes. That means when you want to buy a car, fridge etc you can't buy it from abroad. Then the ruling elite give a licence to one of their favourites to make friidges. The factory that makes fridges can be utterly inefficent and the fridge could be rubbish but it still sells because onsumers have no choice. So these lame duck industries that really are just parasites and survive because of regulated market keep making money for the elite.
> 
> Comes alonng CPEC. destroys these industries. Consumer get choice. If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese? If our industry shuts it is because it was incompetant parasite. As industry shuts down that effects the market. The Chinese companies will soon start moving their prodiction units along the CPEC to supply local market as well as abroad. This then over time introduces nerw ideas, new ways of running things and introdices competion. Over time some of our people start comepting and the best go on to then compete with the world. This is why CPEC is good for us in the long run.



I have a genuine question, if you could answer please. 

How will CPEC change this exploitative attitude of these elites? Sorry but will add one more short question

With Chinese setting up manufacturing bases in Pakistan how can competition happen when local units unable to compete with Chinese technology, money power will either wind down or get absorbed?

Thanks for your reply in advance.


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## Whazzup

cirr said:


> Buying expensive American weapons with your extremely limited hard currency reserve is destroying your extremely limited defence industry。
> 
> Stop buying foreign weapons and start making your own，starting from bloody rifles。
> 
> By the way，India should also stop all manners of Chinese investments in India which are absolutely destroying your local industries as I write these words。



Stop being such a fool I asked a genuine question without any intent of trolling you have an answer please share it with me and spare me you insecurities.


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## somebozo

CPEC will link up to part of China which is far more under-development and improvised than Pakistan...this of this as an opportunity for Pakistan exports to China more than Chinese exports to Pakistan...


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## Lin Jim

We should know that it is difficult to benefit from infrastructure investment. Usually the country that you live in should do this hard work. It is just like _*Marshall Plan*_. The biggest beneficiary is Pakistan.

Pakistani Industry only can be developed by enough Power, Capacity, Energy which is the purpose of CPEC. Chinese Labor intensive industry will be transferred to Pakistan, not India, so it is a chance for pakistan. Premise is a stable situation in Pakistan.

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## Medical Technologist

*Comment by Kaptaan*
(Yes, your right. It's just a road. Just strip of tarmac. Just a ribbon. What will it do? Well it will flood the Pakistani market. It will destroy our industry. So what is good about it?

Everything. The problem with Pakistan is we have stuck our heads up our backsides. This has allowed the world to move on while we are still sat there in our villages swatting flies. Have you ever thought why a country of 200 million people has exports less than 3 million Ireland?

Where is our so called industry? Well we don't have industry like most of the world. We have parasites going as industry. Now this is how "parasite industry" works. The elite make the poor go abroad to slave away in Saudia Arabia or other countries. The billions that comes to Pakistan then is spent on cars, motorbikes, houses, food, fridges, electrical products etc.

Then the elite create a import restriction that either stops anything being imported or attracts high taxes. That means when you want to buy a car, fridge etc you can't buy it from abroad. Then the ruling elite give a licence to one of their favourites to make friidges. The factory that makes fridges can be utterly inefficent and the fridge could be rubbish but it still sells because onsumers have no choice. So these lame duck industries that really are just parasites and survive because of regulated market keep making money for the elite.

Comes alonng CPEC. destroys these industries. Consumer get choice. If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese? If our industry shuts it is because it was incompetant parasite. As industry shuts down that effects the market. The Chinese companies will soon start moving their prodiction units along the CPEC to supply local market as well as abroad. This then over time introduces nerw ideas, new ways of running things and introdices competion. Over time some of our people start comepting and the best go on to then compete with the world. This is why CPEC is good for us in the long run.)
.
.
. *Reply*
So that is what you think?
Let me explain to you your thought and its consequences....
First,
You said everything is good about cPEC....Totally wrong.That is what you think, just a dream.Why would china help us.Chinese govt knows situation and level of corruption in pakistan.why would china help.why would any other country in the world help an other country without any concern.let's say china is a deeeep friend of pak .does it make any sense?do we have any kind of example in which a country helps an other country to such an extent?lets accept it for a minute that china really cares about us.but Why we always need a shoulder for support.did china asked for any help when it was striving and fighting for its existence?well! The thing that makes cPEC good for Pak is sincereity of China.After cPEC completion it depends on china that either it wants to make this project useful or harmful for Pak . And the truth is that Some kind of little financial help and cheap goods that china is giving us and that shahra e resham is not a proof that China is actually thinking about Pakistan's progress. Everything that china has done in past was only for its own good.Give me a single example of chinese help which is actually making pakistan developing.....except those aids which worth nothing...and those useless engines.
.
second "stuck our heads up our backsides. "Whatever u call it.
Those nations which learn nothing from the past can never ever make progress.they just keep falling because they did not stick their heads up their backsides.so sticking the head up our backsides is necessary.so that is an unvalid explaination.
.
Third we are still sat there in our villages swatting flies. 
It is up to us that either we want to do something or just want to wait for a miracle.it is our chioce.why are we following such dumb politicians?Who has choosen them as our leaders? Is'nt it you?isn't it me? They were not born as our leaders,we have choosen them.Then why are we claiming that these politicians are ruining us.We are destroying ourself.than why blaming leaders?
Why we are sitting in villages swating flies?because we have accepted it.We dont want to make any change ourself but are crying for a change.Changes dont come that are brought by nation by people by youth.If we wish and work for making a change we will no more swatt flies sitting in our villages.
Every nation had a time when he was just swatting flies but they did not wait for cPEC to come and change their condition.They worked and hard worked for their progress and even china changed his condition from worst to best.Point to be noted"without anybody's help"

Forth elite make the poor go abroad to slave away in Saudia Arabia or other countries. 
Why we are going abroad for slaving?why dont we make our country worth earning a living?because we are getting adopted to slavery.We think slavery is easy than making a way in our own country.Accept it or not we are all biased.We think of ourself only.to go abroad and earn a living is only for you while if u make a change it will give benefit to each person of your country but who cares.
And please explain elite.Doesnt elite consist of all the leaders plus all those rich pakistanis who are not giving a chance to poors.who want that all the treasure should be theirs.they are not happy if a poor gets rich or comes to their level.what cPEC will do in this regard.

Fifth If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese?
Better thing is always costly...so is pakistani.
And every body wants to buy a thing that is cheap.chinease products are cheap.majority of peole are poor in pakistan and they cant afford a costly and a better thing...that is one reason why chinese products will rule even if they are worst because majority is going to buy it due to cheap price.Than pkaistan industry will automatically destroy because a little no. of rich buyers can not make it stand.
So either pakistan makes excelent products,poor will only buy cheap worthless chinese products,as it is happening now a days.Than again our engineers,youth and all that talented people will have to become slaves of other countries for a living,again,as it is happening now a days.
.
.
Sixth Over time some of our people start comepting and the best go on to then compete with the world. 
Competition ?what kind of competition ?the competition of an already developed country with a country who is fighting for existence?do you expect that an economicaly weak country will ba able to stand that competition? No way... we will surely loose balance.we need to strengthen our roots first and it is posaible only when we develope our industry.And cPEC is not going to help us anyway to make progress.china will not wait for us to get developed.our leaders are going to stop bringing chinese products in pakistan.we need to be sincere with our country we should buy only pakistani products and only then and only then we will make progress....
Result
We need a leader wo does not want to rule,who wants to lead a nation.
We need a nation,a united nation,The pakistani Nation.
We need to bring a change in ourself,a positive change.
We need to be ready for any kind of sacrifice of ease,time,energy etc.
We need to learn how to live independently .
We need to learn to live with unity and need to learn to work as a team,and as a developer not as a slave.


Kaptaan said:


> Yes, your right. It's just a road. Just strip of tarmac. Just a ribbon. What will it do? Well it will flood the Pakistani market. It will destroy our industry. So what is good about it?
> 
> Everything. The problem with Pakistan is we have stuck our heads up our backsides. This has allowed the world to move on while we are still sat there in our villages swatting flies. Have you ever thought why a country of 200 million people has exports less than 3 million Ireland?
> 
> Where is our so called industry? Well we don't have industry like most of the world. We have parasites going as industry. Now this is how "parasite industry" works. The elite make the poor go abroad to slave away in Saudia Arabia or other countries. The billions that comes to Pakistan then is spent on cars, motorbikes, houses, food, fridges, electrical products etc.
> 
> Then the elite create a import restriction that either stops anything being imported or attracts high taxes. That means when you want to buy a car, fridge etc you can't buy it from abroad. Then the ruling elite give a licence to one of their favourites to make friidges. The factory that makes fridges can be utterly inefficent and the fridge could be rubbish but it still sells because onsumers have no choice. So these lame duck industries that really are just parasites and survive because of regulated market keep making money for the elite.
> 
> Comes alonng CPEC. destroys these industries. Consumer get choice. If our fridge is better why would we buy Chinese? If our shoes are better why would we buy Chinese? If our industry shuts it is because it was incompetant parasite. As industry shuts down that effects the market. The Chinese companies will soon start moving their prodiction units along the CPEC to supply local market as well as abroad. This then over time introduces nerw ideas, new ways of running things and introdices competion. Over time some of our people start comepting and the best go on to then compete with the world. This is why CPEC is good for us in the long run.

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## Maxpane

I dnt think its double edge sword . i think we should concentrate on.positivity which ch8nese investment brings in.country and encourage other countries to invest pakistan . unlike usa china always support us in difficult time and never say do more


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## Skywalker

Lurch Adams said:


> Yes, I know. The surrender was just a ruse. Afterwards the defeated (not) Punjabi army was going to rip us to shreds. America saved us, not you (yawn).


Arey Bhai bhonknay kay alllawa aur Kia kertay ho


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## maximuswarrior

Al-Taïr said:


> For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.
> 
> 1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.
> 
> 2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.
> 
> 3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.
> 
> So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.
> 
> by MECH
> 
> (+ve,-ve, neutral) reviews & views are welcomed



There are no conspiracy theories here. We should stop being cynical and looking for excuses.

From a Pakistani perspective, CPEC is meant to improve the economic situation of Pakistan. Plain and simple. Nothing more nothing less.

Whilst our so-called "allies" have done nothing for us apart from blaming us, China stood up and invested billions of dollars. China isn't Britain who is going to step in and rob us. Neither is China the US/West. Surely, China didn't invest billions due to charity or love. Of course, China has something to gain from CPEC, but so has Pakistan. *We need to start appreciating our mutual benefits. CPEC is mutually beneficial and it contains no malicious secrets.
*
Pakistan can never have good and cordial relations with the US/West as it does with China. We can be rest assured that the US/West is never going to come into Pakistan and invest tens of billions of dollars. Anyone believing otherwise needs a serious reality check.

There is only one double edged sword in this whole story and that is the cynics who oppose any form of investment and development in Pakistan.

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## Nike

at least get some little research and facts in hand before spouting comments....


Xinjiang, Kashgar and other western China area provinces had a lot more GDP and much more industrialized than Pakistan and had better parameter states in HDI and other economic and socio parameter.....

for example Xinjiang autonomous Region with just 21 million or so population got 150 billion US dollar Regional GDP and around 6000 US dollar percapita income. And most of their workforce is literate and well educated the rate is over 96 % of workorce population had achieved secondary level education

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## LeGenD

Maxpane said:


> I dnt think its double edge sword . i think we should concentrate on.positivity which ch8nese investment brings in.country and encourage other countries to invest pakistan . unlike usa china always support us in difficult time and never say do more


American support in the form of IMF has bailed Pakistani economy from crash time-and-again.

I agree with the point-of-view that CPEC can be leveraged as an avenue of foreign investment.

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## Maxpane

LeGenD said:


> American support in the form of IMF has bailed Pakistani economy from crash time-and-again.
> 
> I agree with the point-of-view that CPEC can be leveraged as an avenue of foreign investment.


Imf is not support i believe if they think pakisttan an aaly then they should invest their money to help economy not provide bail . Can america invest 5 billion$$ in pakistan . I belive nooooooo . They cant


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## LeGenD

maximuswarrior said:


> There are no conspiracy theories here. We should stop being cynical and looking for excuses.
> 
> From a Pakistani perspective, CPEC is meant to improve the economic situation of Pakistan. Plain and simple. Nothing more nothing less.
> 
> Whilst our so-called "allies" have done nothing for us apart from blaming us, China stood up and invested billions of dollars. China isn't Britain who is going to step in and rob us. Neither is China the US/West. Surely, China didn't invest billions due to charity or love. Of course, China has something to gain from CPEC, but so has Pakistan. *We need to start appreciating our mutual benefits. CPEC is mutually beneficial and it contains no malicious secrets.
> *
> Pakistan can never have good and cordial relation with the West/US as it does with China. We can be rest assured that the US/West is never going to come into Pakistan and invest tens of billions of dollars. Anyone believing otherwise needs a serious reality check.
> 
> There is only one double edged sword in this whole story and that is the cynics who oppose any form of investment in Pakistan.


Actually, Americans have invested over 25 billion USD in Pakistan since 9/11. Not to forget the role of IMF in stabilizing our economy. American investment have been invaluable for our economy and military capability. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

I agree with the rest.


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## Maxpane

LeGenD said:


> Actually, Americans have invested over 25 billion USD in Pakistan since 9/11. This is in-addition to role of IMF in stabilizing our economy. American investment have been invaluable for our economy and military capability. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
> 
> I agree with the rest.


25 Billion on which projects ? Can you enlighten me please . I shall be thankful if you share some knowledge


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## LeGenD

Maxpane said:


> Imf is not support i believe if they think pakisttan an aaly then they should invest their money to help economy not provide bail . Can america invest 5 billion$$ in pakistan . I belive nooooooo . They cant


Economics is not your forte I suppose?

Pakistan's economy was on the brink of collapse during the tenure of PPP-led government. When PML(N)-led government took over, it approached IMF to prevent this collapse, and IMF delivered. Try to understand how invaluable this kind of support is.

Americans have invested huge sums of money in Pakistan in different sectors (over 25 billion USD since 2001). Problem is that War on Terror and Politics have overshadowed such support, and people mostly remember negative stuff.


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## Logicaldude

https://defence.pk/threads/sri-lanka-to-sell-loss-making-port-to-china.466688/

China is only trying to help Pakistan.


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## LeGenD

Maxpane said:


> 25 Billion on which projects ? Can you enlighten me please . I shall be thankful if you share some knowledge


There you go: http://www.cgdev.org/page/aid-pakistan-numbers


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## Maxpane

LeGenD said:


> There you go: http://www.cgdev.org/page/aid-pakistan-numbers


Bro is there no difference between aid and investment ?


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## Mamluk

I wonder why almost all the anti-CPEC "supposedly Pakistani" guys are *NEW* members!



Lin Jim said:


> Pakistani Industry only can be developed by enough Power, Capacity, Energy which is the purpose of CPEC. *Chinese Labor intensive industry will be transferred to Pakistan, not India, so it is a chance for pakistan. *Premise is a stable situation in Pakistan.



Exactly!

Funny thing (when you look at the last few pages), I've never seen Indians so worried about future of Pakistan's economy!

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## maximuswarrior

madokafc said:


> at least get some little research and facts in hand before spouting comments....
> 
> 
> Xinjiang, Kashgar and other western China area provinces had a lot more GDP and much more industrialized than Pakistan and had better parameter states in HDI and other economic and socio parameter.....
> 
> for example Xinjiang autonomous Region with just 21 million or so population got 150 billion US dollar Regional GDP and around 6000 US dollar percapita income. And most of their workforce is literate and well educated the rate is over 96 % of workorce population had achieved secondary level education



Exactly and that is very telling. If anything, as Pakistanis we appreciate China's help and it is a win-win for both China and Pakistan. *Pakistan is the ultimate winner.*

Those few members that are worried about CPEC cannot answer one simple question. Who will come into Pakistan and make billions worth of investment in infrastructure, energy and other vital projects? The US/West who blame Pakistan for all the ills in the universe? I don't think so.


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