# 4- Type 054 Frigates from China, Pakistan's next Goal



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

4 of these





Experts Agree that this ship will GREATLY enhance Pakistan's navy's capacity to provide Air defence for its fleet with these babies -

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## Kompromat

I have heard about it but what do you say if there is any authentic news about any negotiation in place for procurement ?

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## Adios Amigo

AZADPAKISTAN2009 

You have spent quite sometime on this forum and now have become a senior member. When so ever you want to start a new thread etc please base your claim on some qualified source, give a link, a reference etc, so that your thread becomes worthy of healthy discussion, otherwise it will only help to make the forum a rumor-ville. 
I am suggesting this because its not the first time it happened, earlier today you started similar thread about further F-16 procurement, which is totally baseless. And from senior member which you are now, we expect a lot more maturity.

Other then that, thanks for sharing the awesome pictures.
Hope you can take the message in a positive way.








Adios

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

adeos amigo said:


> AZADPAKISTAN2009
> 
> You have spent quite sometime on this forum and now have become a senior member. When so ever you want to start a new thread etc please base your claim on some qualified source, give a link, a reference etc, so that your thread becomes worthy of healthy discussion, otherwise it will on help to make the forum a rumorville.
> I am suggesting this because its not the first time it happened, earlier today you started similar thread about further F-16 procurement, which is totally baseless. And from senior member which you are now, we expect a lot more maturity.
> 
> Other then that, thanks for sharing the awesome pictures.
> Hope you can take the message in a positive way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adios



REFERENCE: 36 Block C/D F16

Article: Pakistan Seeking 36 F-16 C/D Aircraft, Weapons, Upgrades, And... | AccessMyLibrary - Promoting library advocacy

Pakistan is seeking to purchase 36 Lockheed Martin [LMT] F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft along with associated equipment and services for a potential value of $3 billion if all options are exercised, according to the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA). 

Additionally, Pakistan is seeking $2.1 billion in sales of F-16 mid-life update modification kits, F-16 engine modifications and Falcon UP/STAR structural changes and weapons for the F-16 C/D Block 50/52 aircraft. 

In 2005, Pakistan planned to buy 55 Block 50/52 F-16s along with an optional buy of 20 more. However, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf cancelled the purchase following the October earthquake near the Kashmir border, a Lockheed Martin official said in November (Defense Daily, Dec. 1).


Reference #2

http://www.aviationweek.co.uk/aw/ge...Raises Questions About F-16 Sales To Pakistan

Michael Fabey 

A Congressional Research Service (CRS) report questions whether the Bush Administration's proposed $3 billion sale of 36 F-16 C/D Block 50/52 combat jets to Pakistan will help that country better battle terrorists or help solidify the American military aircraft manufacturing base as promised. 

"The Block 50/52 variant that is being proposed for export is the most advanced version of the F-16 flown by U.S. military forces," writes CRS aviation analyst Christopher Bolkcom in his July 6 report, "Combat Aircraft Sales to South Asia: Potential Implications." 

Bolkcom adds, "It incorporates advanced weapons and avionics for air-to-air combat that appear unnecessary for counterinsurgency operations. Less expensive and less sophisticated aircraft such as attack helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, and combat search and rescue aircraft would appear to have greater utility in combating insurgents and other non-state actors than supersonic fighter aircraft."


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## graphican

Are these in addition to 8 F-22P frigates or the next 4 F-22p has been converted to these better types? By the way where's the source of this news?


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## Adios Amigo

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> REFERENCE: 36 Block C/D F16
> 
> Article: Pakistan Seeking 36 F-16 C/D Aircraft, Weapons, Upgrades, And... | AccessMyLibrary - Promoting library advocacy
> 
> Pakistan is seeking to purchase 36 Lockheed Martin [LMT] F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft along with associated equipment and services for a potential value of $3 billion if all options are exercised, according to the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA).
> 
> Additionally, Pakistan is seeking $2.1 billion in sales of F-16 mid-life update modification kits, F-16 engine modifications and Falcon UP/STAR structural changes and weapons for the F-16 C/D Block 50/52 aircraft.
> 
> In 2005, Pakistan planned to buy 55 Block 50/52 F-16s along with an optional buy of 20 more. However, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf cancelled the purchase following the October earthquake near the Kashmir border, a Lockheed Martin official said in November (Defense Daily, Dec. 1).



The article is from 2006 and i am sure you haven't even checked the date before posting. Apart from that it has no where mentioned that Pakistan is going to exercise the right of buying optional 18 Block 52s. 



*Post Edit*
the second source is also from 2006 and suffers from the same fallacy.





adios

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Now here is something interesting 3 UK based destroyers
Reference:
Pakistan in the frame for Type 42 destroyers


Pakistan in the frame for Type 42 destroyers

By Richard Scott

27 May 2009




The UK and Pakistan are discussing a deal under which the Pakistan Navy (PN) could acquire up to three Type 42 Batch 3 destroyers following their retirement from the Royal Navy (RN), Jane's has learned.



Meanwhile, Pakistan is conducting a separate dialogue with the United States regarding the availability of additional FFG 7 frigates, as the PN looks to recapitalise a large part of its surface combatant force through second-hand acquisitions.

The PN frigate force currently comprises six ex-RN Type 21s constituting the 25th Destroyer Squadron. Transferred between 1993 and 1994, these ships &#8211; now known as the Tariq class &#8211; have undergone significant modernisation since transfer, but all are now over 30 years old and becoming increasingly difficult to support.

Pakistan also has four F22P frigates on order from China with the first, Zulfiquar, due to be accepted into service later this year.
145 of 409 words


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Frigates 054A source

Reference: 
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Naval Chief seeks more cooperation with China









Naval Chief seeks more cooperation with China PDF Print E-mail

BEIJING, Dec 22 (APP): The Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir has said that he looks forward to see more cooperation between China and Pakistan specially in the field of submarine construction.In addition to submarines, the admiral told China Daily that *he has talked to Chinese officials regarding buying of larger ships than the current F22P frigates.*The China Daily in an interview of the Naval Chief published on Tuesday said Pakistan ordered the F22P frigates from China in 2005. The first, of the four F22P frigates ordered by Pakistan, was delivered in July this year and is already in service.

&#8220;The F22P frigate is about 3,000 tons, and now we are talking of 4,000-ton ships. These are big projects and we think the cooperation is important for both the countries.&#8221;

Admiral Bashir highly praised the standard of Chinese military technology, saying that China is keeping pace with the changing world and efficiently adopted new technologies.

He said the warships are of the latest technology, and have the all-round capability to target surface ships, aircraft and submarines.

&#8220;The F22P frigate can be deployed to complete multi tasks. The ship is balanced for offense and defense, and can be used in both peace and war.&#8221;

The admiral said this was his third visit to China this year because Pakistan attaches great importance to its cooperation with China not only regarding naval matters but in other fields also.

He said the F22P and JF-17 Thunder fighter planes are the two major projects in addition to others including development of ammunition, design, equipment and weapons.

*The admiral said his country plans to buy more weapons from China in the future, such as bigger ships and missiles.*

Zhai Dequan, deputy director of China Arms Control and Disarmament Association said that Pakistan&#8217;s proposal for cooperation in the field of submarines is aimed at protecting its sea borders.

*Secondary Source (Indirect US Media)*
Another user on another defence forum heard the same news on US news source 
that the negotiations have been completed for 3-4 ships for Pakistan 

Reference: http://forum.********************/index.php?showtopic=86345&mode=threaded&pid=1198176

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## xuxu1457



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## TaimiKhan

Azad, what is the need to repeat same old news multiple another time ??

We have discussed in detail all the above things extensively in old threads, which are still present there. 

You opened up the F-16 Blk 52 thread, by saying just a rumor you have heard and then you paste here 2006 articles, which every Pakistani knows, that we had 36 F-16 Blk 52s options, which we did not exercise and bought just 18, leaving the other 18 aside. 

Give a 2010 link which says this new from any official source, or the thread gets closed or merged with old threads. 

Same with the 4 Type-054s, discussed multiple times, but no confirm news yet, just rumors from defence experts kind of people. 

And what about thhis British ships ??? Haven't you heard or what ?? Those ships have already been bought by someone else, after PN gave a very low biding price, and someone else with high bid price got the ships, so what is the reason for these old outdated news and making new threads ???

Give valid reasons or both threads are gone.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

taimikhan said:


> Azad, what is the need to repeat same old news multiple another time ??
> 
> We have discussed in detail all the above things extensively in old threads, which are still present there.
> 
> You opened up the F-16 Blk 52 thread, by saying just a rumor you have heard and then you paste here 2006 articles, which every Pakistani knows, that we had 36 F-16 Blk 52s options, which we did not exercise and bought just 18, leaving the other 18 aside.
> 
> Give a 2010 link which says this new from any official source, or the thread gets closed or merged with old threads.
> 
> Same with the 4 Type-054s, discussed multiple times, but no confirm news yet, just rumors from defence experts kind of people.
> 
> And what about thhis British ships ??? Haven't you heard or what ?? Those ships have already been bought by someone else, after PN gave a very low biding price, and someone else with high bid price got the ships, so what is the reason for these old outdated news and making new threads ???
> 
> Give valid reasons or both threads are gone.



np I was intriged by the new F22P & 054A deals , and alot of people are confused about the two platforms , there are actually two deals taking place based on above articles so its easier for ppl to track them both , F22P is TOT , while 054A is not a TOT ...

Yes the bristish news was something I was not aware off I just saw that on defence location - I never heard about it so I posted it to get feedback on if anyone knew about it


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Pak navy lost the british navy frigates due to a very low bid.

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## fatman17

the next surface ships to be inducted will be the Perry class frigates from the US. the first of three is due around August 2010 followed by one each in 2011 and 2012 after upgrades.


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## TOPGUN

This has been talked about before we need real proof or source for this deal ...


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> This has been talked about before we need real proof or source for this deal ...



its a done deal - the source is Jane's Navy International - I can post the extract as the subscription is a paid one!

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## Stealth

Sorry for off topic but what happened with 214 deal ????


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## fatman17

Stealth said:


> Sorry for off topic but what happened with 412 deal ????



u mean 214 - well AFAIK, its on the 'back-burner' due to reluctance shown by the germans.


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## Stealth

fatman17 said:


> u mean 214 - well AFAIK, its on the 'back-burner' due to reluctance shown by the germans.



awww sorry Fatman sir yes 214* well so any news about Navy "thinking" ? Chinees Subs ?


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> its a done deal - the source is Jane's Navy International - I can post the extract as the subscription is a paid one!



Fatman in all due respect sir i couldn't find the news on janes .. kindly if you will post the news thx much.


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## Super Falcon

i think yes pakistan is in need of destroyers than frigates stop wasting money on small ships we need huge ships to counter air and surface threats to pakistan and atlaset 8 huge ships we need

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## jawadqamar

fatman17 said:


> the next surface ships to be inducted will be the Perry class frigates from the US. the first of three is due around August 2010 followed by one each in 2011 and 2012 after upgrades.


*
What kind of upgrades?*

These ships are without SAM and antiship missile capability


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

jawadqamar said:


> *
> What kind of upgrades?*
> 
> These ships are without SAM and antiship missile capability




Perhaps the Pakistani Navy plans to retrofit them with appropriate missile defences, and missiles I am sure the harpoon could be equiped on these ships ? 

How does the navy planes to enhance the operational capacity of these ships ? in term of air defences and ship to ship warfare....

DCNS french company makes some really beautiful frigates and destroyer, I am sure we can fit some french systems on the ships


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## QADRI

it means that we are going for more F22p frigates, and more F-16 block 50/52 in near future. What about U-boats?


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## ice_man

fatman17 said:


> u mean 214 - well AFAIK, its on the 'back-burner' due to reluctance shown by the germans.



cancelled would be a better word SIR! & "reluctance" was shown by US! not them....


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## Tomahawk

If acquired, Type-054A frigates with its HQ-16 (32 cell VLS) medium range SAMs would be a considerable upgrade for PN. It would provide an Area-Air-Defense umbrella for its task force.

HQ-16 VLS:



Admiral Noman Bashir meeting with Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie.


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## nightrider_saulat

four F-22p and four TYPE 054
along with perry class frigates
Hmmmmm sounds good


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## jagjitnatt

These frigates sure look good. Does anybody know the specs and comparison to Indian Frigates?
Have these been purchased?


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## xuxu1457



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

xuxu1457 said:


>




Thats what I call , super air defence !!


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## zagahaga

i droped my jaw after i saw that


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## SSGPA1

FYI, third F-22P will be named Saif and insha-Allah it will be delivered by end of March or begining of April this year.

Some sources claim third quarter but I was advised by a relaible source taht it will be actually first or latest second quarter of this year.


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## Super Falcon

wellll we was talkin on type 054 destroyer not f 22 frigate sir


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## Super Falcon

wellll we was talkin on type 054 destroyer not f 22 frigate sir

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## Sanchez

"2008&#24180;&#26576;&#26376;&#65292;&#23450;&#22411;&#35797;&#39564;&#65292;7&#22825;&#25171;7&#21457;&#65292;&#20840;&#37096;&#21629;&#20013;&#12290;&#21019;&#36896;&#20102;&#20013;&#22269;&#28023;&#20891;&#33328;&#31354;&#23548;&#24377;&#31532;&#19968;&#27425;&#25104;&#21151;&#25318;&#25504;&#28023;&#39134;&#34892;&#23567;&#30446;&#26631;&#65292;&#31532;&#19968;&#27425;&#25104;&#21151;&#25318;&#25130;&#22810;&#30446;&#26631;&#65292;&#31532;&#19968;&#27425;&#25104;&#21151;&#25318;&#25130;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#28779;&#31661;&#38774;&#24377;&#30340;&#35760;&#24405;&#12290;"

It says in 2008 the HHQ16 on 054A was tested to intercept multiple targets, small sea-skimming target as well as *supersonic rocket* target.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

One thing is for sure the 054 Type is very Magestic Ship .. almost size of a destroyer !!! 4 of these and 8-12 frigates would make our fleet a reasonable defensive posture force


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## pakistantiger

what is maximum rang and ailtitude of naval HQ16? why not we go for offensive naval force instead of defencive force just consisting of some old frigates only one F22p here 
we should have 16 frigates
4 destroyers
4-8 corvets
more than enough fast attack crafts
and at least 10-12 subs with sublaunch cruise missiles and ballastic missile also ship launched nuclear tipd cruise and ballastic missiles. Also Fighter jets and more helicopters


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## DESERT FIGHTER

pakistantiger said:


> what is maximum rang and ailtitude of naval HQ16? why not we go for offensive naval force instead of defencive force just consisting of some old frigates only one F22p here
> we should have 16 frigates
> 4 destroyers
> 4-8 corvets
> more than enough fast attack crafts
> and at least 10-12 subs with sublaunch cruise missiles and ballastic missile also ship launched nuclear tipd cruise and ballastic missiles. Also Fighter jets and more helicopters


Dont worry dude ...our doctorine is offensive defence not just defence
and we have around 2 F22p frigs 3 -6 uss olive perry class ships will arrive this month...Not to forget 6-8 milgem corvettes,more fast attack missile boats and U214 subs are on the way not to forget we may buy these babies and we will....JF17 maybe handed over to the navy.............so will helis from augusta and herbin.........you got nothin to worry about......We are strictly on our modernisation plans.


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## Penguin

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Dont worry dude ...our doctorine is offensive defence not just defence
> and we have around 2 F22p frigs 3 -6 uss olive perry class ships will arrive this month...Not to forget 6-8 milgem corvettes,more fast attack missile boats and U214 subs are on the way not to forget we may buy these babies and we will....JF17 maybe handed over to the navy.............so will helis from augusta and herbin.........you got nothin to worry about......We are strictly on our modernisation plans.



You will see all 3 chinese produced F22P arrive this year in Pakistan.

There will be 1 Perry class coming available to Pakistan this year (in October IIRC). Any follow-ons will be 2013 and onwards (when they retire from active USN service)

Milgem for Pakistan is still a plan on paper only, as is U214 subs. > not any time soon, but in the next 5-10 years.


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## Penguin

pakistantiger said:


> what is maximum rang and ailtitude of naval HQ16? why not we go for offensive naval force instead of defencive force just consisting of some old frigates only one F22p here
> we should have 16 frigates
> 4 destroyers
> 4-8 corvets
> more than enough fast attack crafts
> and at least 10-12 subs with sublaunch cruise missiles and ballastic missile also ship launched nuclear tipd cruise and ballastic missiles. Also Fighter jets and more helicopters




And with what money will Pakistan pay all this? The money it spends on school and hospitals, perhaps?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Penguin said:


> You will see all 3 chinese produced F22P arrive this year in Pakistan.
> 
> There will be 1 Perry class coming available to Pakistan this year (in October IIRC). Any follow-ons will be 2013 and onwards (when they retire from active USN service)
> 
> *Milgem for Pakistan is still a plan on paper only, as is U214 subs*. > not any time soon, but in the next 5-10 years.



The matter of facts is that they will arrive no matter when.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Penguin said:


> And with what money will Pakistan pay all this? The money it spends on school and hospitals, perhaps?



We will ask india

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## Super Falcon

we need destroyers not frigates we have enough of frigate force


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## razgriz19

i was wondering.....is PN intrested in type 054 or type 54A?!


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## Quwa

Penguin said:


> And with what money will Pakistan pay all this? The money it spends on school and hospitals, perhaps?


You'd be surprised how much revenue can be generated through taxing the landed feudals, affluent agriculturalists, certain swiss-accounts. Pakistan just needs coherent political direction, drive and daring leadership...the economy, infrastructure and military can be modernized and expanded in parallel, as opposed to one after another. The potential is definately there.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

thnks mark.
Kindly can u tell us about any recent navy procurements or plans.
Reguards


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## Penguin

Mark Sien said:


> You'd be surprised how much revenue can be generated through taxing the landed feudals, affluent agriculturalists, certain swiss-accounts. Pakistan just needs coherent political direction, drive and daring leadership...the economy, infrastructure and military can be modernized and expanded in parallel, as opposed to one after another. The potential is definately there.



Clearly, the point was not that Pakistan can't raise the necessary cash. More that you can only spend it once and thus should spend it wisely. What are your greatest needs, as a country? Ships, or other things?


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## Hyde

finally i learned how to report posts 

Thanks Paksher for giving this pleasure to me

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## owais.usmani

Have to agree with Mr. Zaki over there. I normally do not report posts but this was just too good to be missed.

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## Quwa

Penguin said:


> Clearly, the point was not that Pakistan can't raise the necessary cash. More that you can only spend it once and thus should spend it wisely. What are your greatest needs, as a country? Ships, or other things?


I don't think any of the major powers neglected armaments in favour of education or health...but rather strived to develop their defense-secruity and human-security at the same time. Trust me, military expenditure is NOT the reason for the socio-economic problems in Pakistan: Corruption, monopolization, predatory elites, and lack of sincere and visionary leadership is the reason. If Pakistan can generate even $10bn/year from land/agri-taxes (which is nothing compared to the reality)...it can set aside $3bn for defense-acquisitions, and that would be enough in addition to the $4-5bn annual defense budget. The remaining $7bn can be invested into education, health care, infrastructure, energy etc...and that is a insane jump from what is being spent now. And remember, this $10bn figure is just from the agri/land-tax, not the revenues generated from exporting coal (through nationalized assets), wealth-taxes on the business elites, etc.

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## Penguin

Mark Sien said:


> I don't think any of the major powers neglected armaments in favour of education or health...but rather strived to develop their defense-secruity and human-security at the same time.


Uhm... soviet union?

Anyway, it doesn't do to make a huge and fantastics shopping list for PN.


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## Quwa

Penguin said:


> Uhm... soviet union?
> 
> Anyway, it doesn't do to make a huge and fantastics shopping list for PN.


Well I don't think mass education was a priority for Britain, Germany, France, etc, until quite recently in the 1950s. However, I am not saying that Pakistan should follow their model...very far from it. Pakistan should tax and break those who are monopolizing our resources, markets, real-estate, etc, and it will generate enough income to support military advancement and socio-economic human progression. Of course, it is also necessary that the political leadership is changed where austerity, merit and humility completely replace luxury and nepotism. 

As for the $3bn U.S./year figure for acquisitions, that's just the minimum from one aspect of national revenue. If we add them up, then I think $5bn U.S. can be secured - at the minimum. There is no way that Pakistan spends any where close to half of $5bn per year on funding new weapon acquisitions...it's just opening up credit lines and paying in installments.

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## Penguin

Mark Sien said:


> Well I don't think mass education was a priority for Britain, Germany, France, etc, until quite recently in the 1950s. However, I am not saying that Pakistan should follow their model...very far from it. Pakistan should tax and break those who are monopolizing our resources, markets, real-estate, etc, and it will generate enough income to support military advancement and socio-economic human progression. Of course, it is also necessary that the political leadership is changed where austerity, merit and humility completely replace luxury and nepotism.
> 
> As for the $3bn U.S./year figure for acquisitions, that's just the minimum from one aspect of national revenue. If we add them up, then I think $5bn U.S. can be secured - at the minimum. There is no way that Pakistan spends any where close to half of $5bn per year on funding new weapon acquisitions...it's just opening up credit lines and paying in installments.



The starting situation of 1950s Britain was quite different than that of Pakistan, I would think.

As for the US, well, their military spending does cut into other budget items, doesn't it.


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## bc040400065

Penguin said:


> The starting situation of 1950s Britain was quite different than that of Pakistan, I would think.
> 
> As for the US, well, their military spending does cut into other budget items, doesn't it.



The problem is that we have the resources, someone believe or not but pakistan can just change in 5 years interms of economy, and development but the only thing required is not american pupets but real pakistani nationalist leadership. not zardari or musharaf. and no corruption and ofcourse more taxation in different fields. pakistan can generate revenue equal to all its debts in a single year and thats not what im saying but Abdullah Yousaf the ex chairman of revenue board said this. One more thing Pakistan can go far ahead from where it is now if american interference is ended. Pakistan should be according to pakistan's national interest and requirements and not that of US. and in the end yes defence procurement is difficult but there is no choice, india does not miss any chance to take advantage of our weakness, so we have to be good at our defence to stop any indian aggression.


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## Penguin

bc040400065 said:


> The problem is that we have the resources, someone believe or not but pakistan can just change in 5 years interms of economy, and development but the only thing required is not american pupets but real pakistani nationalist leadership. not zardari or musharaf. and no corruption and ofcourse more taxation in different fields. pakistan can generate revenue equal to all its debts in a single year and thats not what im saying but Abdullah Yousaf the ex chairman of revenue board said this. One more thing Pakistan can go far ahead from where it is now if american interference is ended. Pakistan should be according to pakistan's national interest and requirements and not that of US. and in the end yes defence procurement is difficult but there is no choice, india does not miss any chance to take advantage of our weakness, so we have to be good at our defence to stop any indian aggression.



Ok, back to the initial point: anyone can think up an imaginary fleet disposition but how about thinking up one that is reasonably likely to occur within the short-medium term. We can all pipe dream (hey, not to many years ago, the Dutch had 6 SSK, 4 AAW frigates, and 14 GP frigates. Today, they have 4 SKK, 4 destroyers, 2 frigates and 2 LPDs. I'ld love for us to acquire a Cavour-like ship and a class of new frigates or even large corvettes. However, it isn't going to happen, so why bother pipe-dreaming about it: all we're getting is 4 gun armed ocean going OPVs ...)


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## araz

Mark Sien said:


> I don't think any of the major powers neglected armaments in favour of education or health...but rather strived to develop their defense-secruity and human-security at the same time. Trust me, military expenditure is NOT the reason for the socio-economic problems in Pakistan: Corruption, monopolization, predatory elites, and lack of sincere and visionary leadership is the reason. If Pakistan can generate even $10bn/year from land/agri-taxes (which is nothing compared to the reality)...it can set aside $3bn for defense-acquisitions, and that would be enough in addition to the $4-5bn annual defense budget. The remaining $7bn can be invested into education, health care, infrastructure, energy etc...and that is a insane jump from what is being spent now. And remember, this $10bn figure is just from the agri/land-tax, not the revenues generated from exporting coal (through nationalized assets), wealth-taxes on the business elites, etc.



mark
Do you actually have any reference to support these figures you are quoting. I dont mean to be argumentative but it would be nice to see what the actual expectations of revenues are from these fat cats who have been on the receiving end for the last 6 decades.
Araz


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## maverick1977

will pakistan be getting HQ9 with type 054 destroyers?


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## TaimiKhan

maverick1977 said:


> will pakistan be getting HQ9 with type 054 destroyers?



It has to otherwise no charm would be left in acquiring this ship as its SAM is its beauty. Otherwise the C-802s, 76mm gun turret etc are also available in the F-22P. So O54A has to be acquired with the HQ-9, and that is the weapon system which PN want and why it is looking at this frigate acquisition.

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## desiman

Tomahawk said:


> If acquired, Type-054A frigates with its HQ-16 (32 cell VLS) medium range SAMs would be a considerable upgrade for PN. It would provide an Area-Air-Defense umbrella for its task force.
> 
> HQ-16 VLS:
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Noman Bashir meeting with Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie.




The biggest factor in this deal would be the age of these frigates. On a normal time scale the metal used in ship rusts in around 20 years or so. It takes around $20 for every square inch to redo the metal and restore it to its prime condition. Pakistan will spend a lot of money on just maintaining these ships and the amount of refitting is also quite a lot. I would it is wiser for Pakistan to acquire new ships directly from China as in the longer run that would be cheaper and safer also. At best the life of these frigates even after refit would be a max of 10-15 years. Pakistan can easily get much better ships if they do some pulling around in the market which is quite desperate right now. Again this is my opinion. 

Here is an article talking about the rusting on ships as new as 3 months old just for reference sake. 

Forsvarets nye fregatt ruster - Hordaland - NRK Nyheter

Norway's new frigates rust after 3 months.. - Boat Design Forums


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

desiman said:


> The biggest factor in this deal would be the age of these frigates. On a normal time scale the metal used in ship rusts in around 20 years or so. It takes around $20 for every square inch to redo the metal and restore it to its prime condition. Pakistan will spend a lot of money on just maintaining these ships and the amount of refitting is also quite a lot. I would it is wiser for Pakistan to acquire new ships directly from China as in the longer run that would be cheaper and safer also. At best the life of these frigates even after refit would be a max of 10-15 years. Pakistan can easily get much better ships if they do some pulling around in the market which is quite desperate right now. Again this is my opinion.
> 
> Here is an article talking about the rusting on ships as new as 3 months old just for reference sake.
> 
> Forsvarets nye fregatt ruster - Hordaland - NRK Nyheter
> 
> Norway's new frigates rust after 3 months.. - Boat Design Forums




Pakistan Navy takes great care of their assets , and also we have shipping yard to maintain ships on regular basis


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## maverick1977

Lets suppose Pakistan does get HQ 9 or HQ 16 with type 054 destroyers, what class of indian destroyers will be at the same part with type 054 destroyers interms of Ship to Air warfare capability?


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## Aamir Hussain

In my humble opinion, PN is trying to form at least three hunter killer groups built around dedicated ASW platform with heavy frigates acting as Air Defense platforms. 

The hunter/killer group would be built around two multi-purpose patrol frigates with state of the art ASW capability (Typically ASW Platforms hunt in pairs). At present, none of the platforms have state of the art ASW capability. The Type 21's have a mix of various weapons system including some Swedish systems. The F22P's are also not that up to the mark in ASW capability.

Similarly, the fleet air defense frigate is just not there to give cover to the ASW units. This is where the need for a FM-90 armed frigate or a destroyer emerges (I am not in favor of buying destroyer as it costs too much to run over the platforms' mission life -- the newer frigates have taken over most of the dedicated destroyer roles with ever smaller weapon systems and electronics). 

All the above frigates would be armed with AshM -- this where PN has an edge with a combo of Harpoon, Exocet and C802 armed platforms. All of them are at the cutting edge of the technology and most of them, if not all, are battle tested weapon systems.

The need of the hour is to upgrade the ASW capability, ( including ASW Helo platforms-- I do not know why PN is reluctant to embark ASW/Anti ship helos on its Type 21 frigates -- they are decent ships and have some life left in them) and provide fleet SAM systems.

My above theory is based upon the current weapons suit on the type 21's. 

Furthermore, the submarine force will act as the main punch against the intrusion of major surface units into the exclusion zone if we end up going to war against India.

My spin on the discussion.

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## mughaljee

Please correct me, 
is this better then F-22?


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## Tomahawk

maverick1977 said:


> Lets suppose Pakistan does get HQ 9 or HQ 16 with type 054 destroyers, what class of indian destroyers will be at the same part with type 054 destroyers interms of Ship to Air warfare capability?



Currently Chinese Type 054A has HQ-16 SAM in 32-cell VLS system which is a Chinese copy of Russian 9M317 (NATO codename: SA-N-12) Shtil semi-active radar-homing medium-range SAM.

Now if we talk about India, the IN surface vessels already have good SAM capabilities, some of them are mentioned below:

*Talwar (Krivak III) Class:* It employs 9M317 (SA-N-11, navalised SA-17) missile and 24 such missiles are carried.

*Shivalik Class Frigates:* For medium range anti-air coverage, a single 3S-90 launcher mount for the Shtil SAM system with 24 missiles is employed. The Shtil SAM system fires the 9M38M1 missile or the improved 9M38M2 missile. The 9M38M1, which is also known as the SA-N-7 by NATO or Shtil in Russian Navy service, is a navalised SA-11. The 9M38M2, which is also known as the SA-N-12 by NATO, is a navalised SA-17. The 9M38M1 missile is reported to have a range of 3.5 to 25 km, while the 9M38M2 has a range of 32 km or more.

*Delhi Class Destroyers:* It employs 9M38M1 (SA-N-7, navalised SA-11) missile and 24 such missiles are carried.

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## raveolution

Tomahawk said:


> Currently Chinese Type 054A has HQ-16 SAM in 32-cell VLS system which is a Chinese copy of Russian 9M317 (NATO codename: SA-N-12) Shtil semi-active radar-homing medium-range SAM.
> 
> Now if we talk about India, the IN surface vessels already have good SAM capabilities, some of them are mentioned below:
> 
> *Talwar (Krivak III) Class:* It employs 9M317 (SA-N-11, navalised SA-17) missile and 24 such missiles are carried.
> 
> *Shivalik Class Frigates:* For medium range anti-air coverage, a single 3S-90 launcher mount for the Shtil SAM system with 24 missiles is employed. The Shtil SAM system fires the 9M38M1 missile or the improved 9M38M2 missile. The 9M38M1, which is also known as the SA-N-7 by NATO or Shtil in Russian Navy service, is a navalised SA-11. The 9M38M2, which is also known as the SA-N-12 by NATO, is a navalised SA-17. The 9M38M1 missile is reported to have a range of 3.5 to 25 km, while the 9M38M2 has a range of 32 km or more.
> 
> *Delhi Class Destroyers:* It employs 9M38M1 (SA-N-7, navalised SA-11) missile and 24 such missiles are carried.



The SAM systems on board comparable ships in the IN are as follows:

1) Delhi Class

32 x Barak SAM(4 x 8 cell VLS units)
2 x Shtil SAM systems

2) Kolkata Class (U/C)

2 x 32-cell Barak II SAM
2 x Kashtan or combinataion of AK-630 30mm guns and Barak SAM in CIWS role

3) Talwar (Krivak III) Class

1 3S-90 launcher for 9M317 (SA-N-12) SAMs
8 Igla-1E (SA-16) SAMs

4) Godavari Class

24 x Barak SAM (3 x 8 cell VLS units)

5) Shivalik Class (U/C)

32 x Barak SAM
9M317 (SA-N-12) SAM

6) Rajput Class

4 x 30 mm AK-230 guns or 4 x 30 mm AK-630M guns (replaced by Barak SAM in some vessels),
2 x S-125M (NATO: SA-N-1) SAM twin launchers

7) Brahamaputra Class

24 x Barak SAM (3 x 8 cell VLS units)


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## Penguin

error: double post


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## Penguin

Tomahawk said:


> *Talwar (Krivak III) Class:* It employs 9M317 (SA-N-11, navalised SA-17) missile and 24 such missiles are carried.



In addition to 1 single rail launcher for Shtil (24 missiles) , Talwar has 2 Kashtan firing units , each Kashtan unit carries 32 short range SAM. (8km range navalised variant of the 9M311 NATO: SA-N-11 / SA-19)



Tomahawk said:


> *Shivalik Class Frigates:* For medium range anti-air coverage, a single 3S-90 launcher mount for the Shtil SAM system with 24 missiles is employed. The Shtil SAM system fires the 9M38M1 missile or the improved 9M38M2 missile. The 9M38M1, which is also known as the SA-N-7 by NATO or Shtil in Russian Navy service, is a navalised SA-11. The 9M38M2, which is also known as the SA-N-12 by NATO, is a navalised SA-17. The 9M38M1 missile is reported to have a range of 3.5 to 25 km, while the 9M38M2 has a range of 32 km or more.


In addition to 1 single rail launcher for Shtil (24 missiles), Shavalik was initially slated to also received 2x Kashtan units with 32 SA-19 each, but apparently is now equipped with 2x2x8 10km VL Barak as a complement to the 24 round single rail Shtil launcher.



Tomahawk said:


> *Delhi Class Destroyers:* It employs 9M38M1 (SA-N-7, navalised SA-11) missile and 24 such missiles are carried.



2 single rail launchers per ship, each with 24 rounds, for a total of 48 rounds, plus 2x2x8 (32) 10km range Barak VL SAM.

In short, that adds some weight to the SAM load-out ....

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## iioal malik

Great is the contract is sign???


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## Tomahawk

iioal malik said:


> Great is the contract is sign???



No not yet, all Pakistani defense enthusiasts are desperately waiting for that moment. I hope and pray to hear this good news soon.
For the first time it will give an area air defense capability to our Naval Fleet.
It can also provide the air defense umbrella to our F-22P Frigates and they will be able to operate in deep sea along with Type 054A in time of need.


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## bc040400065

mughaljee said:


> Please correct me,
> is this better then F-22?



Yes this is better and much heavier class frigate.

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## Myth_buster_1

Aamir Hussain said:


> At present, none of the platforms have state of the art ASW capability. The Type 21's have a mix of various weapons system including some Swedish systems. The F22P's are also not that up to the mark in ASW capability.



Pakistan had acquired 2 Active Towed Array sonars from France to modernize amazon class frigates and this should be a decent ASW dedicated capability along with naval Lynx. 
PN also have one of the latest long range torpedoes DM2A4 for Agosta-90B package.


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## Penguin

Growler said:


> Pakistan had acquired 2 Active Towed Array sonars from France to modernize amazon class frigates and this should be a decent ASW dedicated capability along with naval Lynx.
> PN also have one of the latest long range torpedoes DM2A4 for Agosta-90B package.



I have no doubt that if some of the ASW equipment installed on the ex-UK Amazons during their modernization is better than the standard equipment on the F22P then this ASW equipment will be transferred from the ex-UK ships to the F22P if at all possible after the ex-UK ships are finally paid off (to not do so would be a waste of money).


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## Myth_buster_1

Penguin said:


> I have no doubt that if some of the ASW equipment installed on the ex-UK Amazons during their modernization is better than the standard equipment on the F22P then this ASW equipment will be transferred from the ex-UK ships to the F22P if at all possible after the ex-UK ships are finally paid off (to not do so would be a waste of money).



I dough the ATAS are advance enough to take place of current ASW systems in F-22P.

*MODERNISATION :* Exocet, torpedo tubes and Lynx helicopter facilities were all added in RN service, but torpedo tubes were subsequently removed in all but Badr and Shahjahan and all are to be retrofitted by Pakistan using Swedish equipment. Exocet was not transferred and the obsolete Seacat SAM system is being replaced by Chinese LY 60N which is a copy of Aspide. New EW equipment has been installed. ATAS sonar has been acquired (two sets only) but plans to update the hull sonars have been shelved. Other equipment upgrades are projected and include Harpoon (from the Gearings), a DA08 search radar, an optronic director, new 30 mm and 20 mm guns, SRBOC chaff launchers. An improved combat data system with a datalink to shore HQ is also being fitted. The first fully equipped ship is not expected to complete until late 1998, but some of the modifications are being done during routine maintenance periods.


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## pakistantiger

this will be great enhancement to our navel force but we should enlarge the navy and also increase the numbers from 4 to 6


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## pakistantiger

This will be great enhancement to our navel force but we should enlarge the navy and also increase the numbers from 4 to 6


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## Aamir Hussain

Growler said:


> Pakistan had acquired 2 Active Towed Array sonars from France to modernize amazon class frigates and this should be a decent ASW dedicated capability along with naval Lynx.
> PN also have one of the latest long range torpedoes DM2A4 for Agosta-90B package.




I will try to get some info. on the towed sonar but as far as I know there is some confusion as to the status of Lynx in PN. May be one the senior members can shed some light on the "Confusion."


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## Myth_buster_1

Aamir Hussain said:


> I will try to get some info. on the towed sonar but as far as I know there is some confusion as to the status of Lynx in PN. May be one the senior members can shed some light on the "Confusion."



What confusion? 3 Lynx have already been delivered and serving in PN.


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## Aamir Hussain

Growler said:


> What confusion? 3 Lynx have already been delivered and serving in PN.



Know that 3 Lynx have been delivered to PN but the confusion started when I saw on some of the posts/treads that the Navy is looking to sell off the helos due to some problem with spares.

I live in Karachi just about three kilometers from PNS Mehran and my offices are on the 7th floor of an office complex roughly 2 kilometers from the port complex. I have yet to see the Lynx flying on its way from Mehran or vice versa. I have seen lots of Orions and Atlantics flying on their first patrol of the morning due south east. I have also regularly seen the Sea-King going off on patrol and have seen it dunking its sonar in and around the entrance to main ship channel. I have seen the odd Allouette on communication duties on and off during the week but never a Lynx!!! 

Have you seen any snaps of it embarked on any of T-21 -- I mean embarked not just landing on the helipad? It is our first dedicated Shipboard Helo -- but as far as I know and based upon lack of sightings (I have been a number of times on port cruises but have yet to see the helo on the aft helipad of any of Type 21's) the helo is not operational otherwise it would add to the AS capabilities of our ships.

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## Tomahawk

Aamir Hussain said:


> Know that 3 Lynx have been delivered to PN but the confusion started when I saw on some of the posts/treads that the Navy is looking to sell off the helos due to some problem with spares.
> 
> I live in Karachi just about three kilometers from PNS Mehran and my offices are on the 7th floor of an office complex roughly 2 kilometers from the port complex. I have yet to see the Lynx flying on its way from Mehran or vice versa. I have seen lots of Orion&#8217;s and Atlantics flying on their first patrol of the morning due south east. I have also regularly seen the Sea-King going off on patrol and have seen it dunking its sonar in and around the entrance to main ship channel. I have seen the odd Allouette on communication duties on and off during the week but never a Lynx!!!
> 
> Have you seen any snaps of it embarked on any of T-21 -- I mean embarked not just landing on the helipad? It is our first dedicated Shipboard Helo -- but as far as I know and based upon lack of sightings (I have been a number of times on port cruises but have yet to see the helo on the aft helipad of any of Type 21's) the helo is not operational otherwise it would add to the AS capabilities of our ships.



Lynx helicopters were part of Pakistan Navy's 222 squadron; this squadron had to be deactivated in 2003 due to inadequate spares.
Read the bold part of below news for details.


KARACHI: In an attempt to boost its aviation wing, Chinese-built anti-submarine warfare helicopters Z9EC were inducted into the Pakistan Navy at a ceremony on Wednesday. A separate squadron (222) of the ASW helicopters has already been created.

This is the first batch of a series of six helicopters to be procured under a contract signed with M/s China National Aero Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC). 

The deal for these helicopters was signed with the contract for four F-22 P frigates, first one of which has already been inducted into the navy as PNS Zulfiquar.

Z9EC helicopters are capable of detecting and destroying submarines. The aircraft is configured to carry torpedoes and is fitted with pulse compression radar, low-frequency dipping sonar, radar warning receiver and doppler navigation system.

Z9EC helicopter is tailor-made to operate from F22P frigates at high seas and its on-board sensors/weapons enable it to support fleet operations under multi-threat environment.

*The need for acquiring ship-borne helicopters was felt with the induction of Type-21 frigates in the PN. Subsequently, three Lynx helicopters were acquired from the United Kingdom, and the 222 squadron was raised in 1996. But after playing an active role the squadron had to be deactivated in 2003 due to inadequate spares.*

However, the PN remained focused on this very important operational capability and the quest for new helicopter, dedicated for ship-borne operations. As such on April 4, 2005 a contract was signed for the acquisition of six Z9EC ASW ship-borne helicopters.

Squadron 222 was reactivated on April 5, 2009 and the aircraft was officially handed over to the PN, after trials, on Sept 18.

Talking to media men, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir, who was the chief guest at the induction held at Naval Aviation Base, said the Indian Ocean was experiencing intense activity and about 100 ships from different countries were operating to safeguard their interests. These extraordinary developments were an indicator of the importance of the trade routes in these waters. The PN was also continuously deploying ships and aircraft to guard the country&#8217;s maritime interests, he added.

Commenting on the regional stability, the naval chief denied being part of any arms race but expressed the resolve to maintain quality in naval platforms and enhancement of capabilities in consonance with the developments in the region.

He expressed his confidence in Chinese technology and termed it compatible with Western technology. 
'Pakistan-China relationship is time-tested and would further be strengthened with such defence collaborations as F-22 P frigates and Z9EC helicopters projects,' he said.

Earlier in his welcome address, Commander of the Pakistan Fleet Rear Admiral Asif Sandila highlighted the salient features of the Z9EC project. He said that apart from China, Pakistan was the first country that would operate these helicopters in an anti-submarine warfare role.

'The hub of all operational activities is the integrated processing system that is capable of planning and execution of various kinds of mission profiles,' he said. 

'A four-channel automatic flight control system (AFCS) provides a great degree of precision in ASW operating environment.'

Earlier, the PN had also used Sea King helicopters to track down submarines and other missions. Later, the Chinese-made helicopter made fly past and staged a demonstration of its characteristics and maneuverability.

The ceremony was attended by Chinese ambassador Luo Zhao Hui, representatives of M/s CATIC and a large number of senior PN officers and aviators.

DAWN.COM | Metropolitan | Pakistan Navy inducts anti-submarine helicopters

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## a1b2c145

*what are they doing?see the wire around the ship?*




*This is another 054 type ship with VLS that you don't know*

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## aimarraul

a1b2c145 said:


> what are them doing?see the wire around the ship?



degaussing


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## TOPGUN

I sure hope we get these 4 type 054 firgates from China soon as Pn really needs them furthermore, Lynx is no longer in use from wat i have heard from a friend of my dads based at PN Mehran the lynx are no longer in use thats all i know are they sitting in some hanger? on the base or trying to be sold of as whole or parts? this i don't know will try to find out more.

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## nightrider_saulat

a true beast of the ocean........


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## Penguin

a1b2c145 said:


> *This is another 054 type ship with VLS that you don't know*



These are, respectively, Type 051C and Type 052C destroyer. The 051C carries the russian RIF-M (S-300FM) SAM (6 launchers x 8 missiles) with associated Russian guidance radar atop the hangar. The 052C carries the indegenous Chinese HHQ-0 SAM (8 launchers x 6 missiles and is associated with a domestic S-band multifunction active phased array radar with four antenna arrays, developed by the Research Institute of Electronic Technology, called Type 348)

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## Tomahawk

Penguin said:


> The 052C carries the indegenous Chinese HHQ-0 SAM



Its *HHQ-9* SAM system.


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## scuthan

054 and 054A are two different classes
054A has VLS, 054 doesn;t
525, 526 are 054
the rest are 054A


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## Nutuk

aimarraul said:


> degaussing



? Are you for sure.

I have never seen this kind of degaussing. The Milgem corvette has degaussing too but you can't see anything from outside.


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## Speeder 2

Type 054A is like the Spine of PLA Navy, as important as "J-10A" to the Airforce, IMO, both being "multi-role" hardware and having been "mass" produced. To be precise, Type 054 is like "J-10A" without mass production, with Type 054A resembling more to "J-10B" in sophistication.


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## Speeder 2

Nutuk said:


> ? Are you for sure.
> 
> I have never seen this kind of degaussing. The Milgem corvette has degaussing too but you can't see anything from outside.



Are those "lines" the shadow of some features of the bridge in the background?


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## Penguin

Tomahawk said:


> Its *HHQ-9* SAM system.



The 9 and the 0 are side by side on my keyboard and I type quickly and inaccurately (obviously)


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## Penguin

Nutuk said:


> ? Are you for sure.
> 
> I have never seen this kind of degaussing. The Milgem corvette has degaussing too but you can't see anything from outside.



It's been observed like this for all major new surface combattants the PLAN has inducted over the last few years.

A ship doesn't have degaussing, it is degaussed (or, by this particular method, it is depermed). Degaussing is the process of decreasing or eliminating an unwanted magnetic field. 

Pic below (USN Osprey class MCMV) from: 62B-303

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## a1b2c145

http://hiphotos.baidu.com/angelroute/pic/item/37615d24e7a01a24c8955995.jpg
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/angelroute/pic/item/41e35855661d4dd3b745ae8b.jpg
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/angelroute/pic/item/3ada29f4ebd5a1cef2d3858b.jpg
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/angelroute/pic/item/bfd3f38b68d481689e2fb489.jpg
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/angelroute/pic/item/f6c9cf16e87b5547f2de320e.jpg


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## nightrider_saulat

by which time these frigates will be among us...........


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## SU-33

I think may be after 5~6 years
if Pakistan's economy can growth continued.


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## nightrider_saulat

SU-33 said:


> I think may be after 5~6 years
> if Pakistan's economy can growth continued.



*SO TILL 2015 WE WILL BE JUST RELYING JUST ON OUR 4 F-22P FRIGATES 
BECAUSE F-221 ARE VERY NEAR TO BE RETIRE FROM NAVAL FLEET*


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## pakistantiger

i think so and a us OHP ffg8 coming in agusut


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## nightrider_saulat

pakistantiger said:


> i think so and a us OHP ffg8 coming in agusut



*so far I have not been satisfied with OHP*


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## Penguin

pakistantiger said:


> i think so and a us OHP ffg8 coming in agusut



Probably more coming by 2013, when a string of OHPs will retire.


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## Penguin

nightrider_saulat said:


> *so far I have not been satisfied with OHP*



You own one?

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## pakistantiger

i think d best way is to go for larger ships and buy new ones instead of older ships typ054a tf2000 or Meko a200 from germany or some thing from france if they offer good not OHP they are good for stop gaps but not for long run


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## Penguin

pakistantiger said:


> i think d best way is to go for larger ships and buy new ones instead of older ships typ054a tf2000 or Meko a200 from germany or some thing from france if they offer good not OHP they are good for stop gaps but not for long run



The Turkish, Taiwanese, Australian (and some other) navies think differently. They certainly are not looking at (ex-USN or domestic) OHPs as stop-gap.


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## a1b2c145

Penguin said:


> It's been observed like this for all major new surface combattants the PLAN has inducted over the last few years.
> 
> A ship doesn't have degaussing, it is degaussed (or, by this particular method, it is depermed). Degaussing is the process of decreasing or eliminating an unwanted magnetic field.
> 
> Pic below (USN Osprey class MCMV) from: 62B-303




Yes!!!!!!!!!! i find another one


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## nightrider_saulat

2015 will be too late for us to get these monsters
as In has currently started inducted it's stealth shivalik and talwar class frigates


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## Penguin

a1b2c145 said:


> Yes!!!!!!!!!! i find another one



They even seem to be doing it with Varyag!



---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 AM ----------




nightrider_saulat said:


> 2015 will be too late for us to get these monsters
> as In has currently started inducted it's stealth shivalik and talwar class frigates



India has other worries besides Pakistan e.g. Chinese naval expansion.


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## nightrider_saulat

Penguin said:


> They even seem to be doing it with Varyag!
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> India has other worries besides Pakistan e.g. Chinese naval expansion.


*but we consider them as our biggest worry​*


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## Penguin

nightrider_saulat said:


> *but we consider them as our biggest worry​*



Still, it means they can't afford to focus all their attention, effort and (best) equipment onto a single potential enemy.

And, in attempting to mirror India's naval advances, which themselves are not solely directed at Pakistan, Pakistan would in effect (also) be attempting to deal with a potential enemy in the naval arena the size of China, while realistically the threat is smaller.


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## Donatello

Haha, good discussion. It is good to delay all naval and airforce procurements until the ghadari government is thrown out, which it seems Inshallah in a few months time. Then our Naval and Air chiefs don't have to worry about Kick Backs and deal stoppers.

Remember its not just the surface combatants that are need by the PN but also the new SSKs.

Everything is quiet in Pakistan's defense industry. It's like calm before the storm.

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## SU-33

news: HQ16 which for 054A, do the test of intercept attack supersonic speed target(missile) on 2008, and succeed.


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

The pictures showed on the first page were 054A+ (batch 2), not the basic 054 (batch 0), which were trial/transition platforms - apart from the displacements - are no better than the F-22P pakistan navy already received; nor they are 054As (batch 1) which had no inward-sloped upper portion of the bow. As many people mentioned before, there was no point of getting the basic version of 054, that would be waste of money. 

I do not see much political/military/copyright obstacles to get the series production version of 054A+ for pakistan navy. Only problems will be financial and workload related, as it is going to cost at least $250-300 Milllion per ship even with uttermost discount, pakistan navy just don't have that kind of budget located for decent numbers (4~6+?) of ships this class (4000 tonnes+), in order to form a capable air defense network on the open seas. 

Plus, all Chinese naval shipyards/factories capable of (which aren't many) producing 054A+ are fully geared to produce enough new FFGs to replace PLAN's aging 053H/053H1 (Jianghu-I & Jianghu-II) fleet, dated back in late 70s & early 80s, that task alone will be at least 15 frigates in the next 5~8 years, then if counting the support ships for the carrier groups, not to mention the carriers themselves. It will be very tight schedule/deadlines to meet for producing extra 054As. 

I wish China could have more shipyards along the coastlines, and to raise the technical/quality control standards for those shipyards based at inland waterways (now the quality standards are low when compared with Shanghai/Guangzhou shipyards), so that the modular construction of building future combat ships can be fully utilised (e.g. build different section/portions at different inland factories, then transport and assemble them at the shipyard on the coast to reduce turn-around time.)


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## Penguin

Ibr0kEmYrAz0r said:


> The pictures showed on the first page were 054A+ (batch 2), not the basic 054 (batch 0), which were trial/transition platforms - apart from the displacements - are no better than the F-22P pakistan navy already received; nor they are 054As (batch 1) which had no inward-sloped upper portion of the bow. As many people mentioned before, there was no point of getting the basic version of 054, that would be waste of money.



I think it is rediculous to distinguish 054A batch 1 and batch 2 solely on the basis of a slightly different bow arrangement at the level of the main deck. What counts are the main systems, and there doesn't apear to be any difference between the two batches in terms of those.


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## pakistantiger

wel if they get ordor 4-6 ships from pakistan then one ship yard could work for pakistan and even a transfer of technology could be occoured in such case if all shipyards r busy to complete the chinese need first which is thier right to do so n three ships can be built in china n three in pakistan and thier is no hurdle to transfer the technology to pakistan


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## Super Falcon

welll are you people sure that pakistan navy is interested in this frigate from china. if yes than why we are thinking why not just go and sign the deal.


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## gowthamraj

Super Falcon said:


> welll are you people sure that pakistan navy is interested in this frigate from china. if yes than why we are thinking why not just go and sign the deal.


maybe your navy thinking of stealth frigate


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## a1b2c145



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## Super Falcon

Azadpakistan yaar just cool down these type of thigs happen and we should support each other out anyway if navy is talking about the bigger ships than it must have to be Destroyer and desrtoyers are more deadly than Frigates our navy already short on surface ships and mainly on destroyers we need something like russian Sovremenny Class destroyer or chinese made Luyanh II Type 052C Destroyer


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## unicorn148

i dont think so that china will be ready to sell you Luyanh II Type 052C Destroyer because it will sell you when it can make a next generation destroyer and even pak cant afford it


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## Arsalan

unicorn148 said:


> i dont think so that china will be ready to sell you Luyanh II Type 052C Destroyer because it will sell you when it can make a next generation destroyer and even pak cant afford it



that wont be the case,
they have given us J-10 when it is there latest fighter plane,
the collaboration on Al-Khalid is another example.

Pakistan relationship with China is not effected by such things..
it getting stronger with passage of time..

 

and will continue to grow Inshallah...
J-XX, heavier frigats/destroyers, submarines SAM systems are still to come

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## ephone

Pakistan now is under severe natural disaster situation as well as economic hardship, I wonder how Pakistan affords to purchase all of those weapons, which are from not only China but also U.S., Germany, France and etc.


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## EagleEyes

ephone said:


> Pakistan now is under severe natural disaster situation as well as economic hardship, I wonder how Pakistan affords to purchase all of those weapons, which are from not only China but also U.S., Germany, France and etc.



The purchasing of Type 054 if planned is not so soon. Pakistan has already delayed several projects including the induction of the next generation subs.

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## PakSher

unicorn148 said:


> i dont think so that china will be ready to sell you Luyanh II Type 052C Destroyer because it will sell you when it can make a next generation destroyer and even pak cant afford it



Indians in general worry too much about Pakistan's finances. Geez man, knock it off. One thing for sure is that Indians think that a country with a bigger economy will win a war. North Koreans fought the US, Vietnam fought the US, Pakistan fought India and did capture 31% of Kashmir in 1948 and 1965 (it is known as Azad Kashmir), we fought the mighty USSR, Argentina fought the UK over Falkland Islands, Japan fought China, US, Germany fought the entire world. Economy is not everything. War are not won on economic power otherwise US spent a $ trillion plus dollars and the Iraqi insurgents did not have any economy at all.

Come out of the nau daulty attitide that Indians have otherwise according to your formula the Kuwati Dinar and Kuwait should the super power. It does not work that way.

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## khurasaan1

ephone said:


> Pakistan now is under severe natural disaster situation as well as economic hardship, I wonder how Pakistan affords to purchase all of those weapons, which are from not only China but also U.S., Germany, France and etc.



Alhamdolillah. Just grace of Allah (sub hanaho-wata-alah) bro


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## Arsalan

WebMaster said:


> The purchasing of Type 054 if planned is not so soon. Pakistan has already delayed several projects including the induction of the next generation subs.



exactly,
the Milgem project for PN is also reported to be delayed further. we have discussed this on the relavant thread in Naval section.

regards!


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## Tajdar adil

four Type 054A FFGs to Pakistan 
Rumors persist of a possible package of four Type 054A FFGs to Pakistan in addition to the current four F22P "sword class" FFG deal. An injection of four Type 054A frigates with medium-range HQ-16 VLS SAMs would be a considerable upgrade for the Pakistan navy -- for the first time, it could provide an Area-Air-Defense umbrella for its task force. Other than the Type 053H3 "Jiangwei" class, the Type 054A frigate is the only Chinese frigate in mass production. Its seaworthiness has been proven by deployments in the Gulf of Aden.

These rumors gain credibility this week since a senior Pakistani official told Janes Defense weekly that "Pakistan's navy was in informal negotiations with China for the purchase of another three to four frigates, that will be larger than the F22Ps." *

With courting from both China and US it is spring time for the Pakistan military.


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## unicorn148

No they will be bigger versions of F22P and not Type 054A because PN cant invest so much at a time first they may order F22p and after that may be Type 054A because PN is already in plans for new subs so it may be difficult ..........


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## Mani2020

unicorn148 said:


> No they will be bigger versions of F22P and not Type 054A because PN cant invest so much at a time first they may order F22p and after that may be Type 054A because PN is already in plans for new subs so it may be difficult ..........



We already have received 3 F-22P while the fourth one is under-construction at Karachi Shipyard .Pn is looking for another 4 frigates from China but it is not confirmed whether they will be another f-22P's or Type 54 with upgradation according to PN needs like in case of 
f-22ps


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## Areesh

Mani2020 said:


> We already have received 3 F-22P while the fourth one is under-construction at Karachi Shipyard .Pn is looking for another 4 frigates from China but it is not confirmed whether they will be another f-22P's or Type 54 with upgradation according to PN needs like in case of
> f-22ps



It would most probably be upgraded F22P with designation F23P. Anyways it would surely have a displacement of around 4000 tons.


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## Mani2020

You are right about the designation F-23P ,but this designation is not for upgraded F-22P rather this designation is for upgraded Type-054 according to PN needs, Atleast thats what i red


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## Manticore

We need to expand F22P, whether we do exactly the same as F22P or we make some upgrade, make it even better. Because of the technology is changing every year, in order to keep it up to date, you have to keep upgrading what you have.


F22P frigate is an improved version of Chinese Type 053H3 frigate, its full load displacement is 3000+ton but without any vertical launch system.

He said F22P can be modified to become closer to Type 054A, but not exactly like that. Pakistan Navy is discussing with Chinese counterparts about its future frigate upgrading program.


He not ruled out the possibility of naming the next generation frigate as F23P.

Pakistan needs more F-22Ps, not Type 054A


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## Penguin

1 of 4 initial F22Ps was built in Pakistan. Not ordering additional domestically built ships like the F22p would defeat the whole purpose of ToT in this case. Hence, I would consider it extremely unlikely that PN would get 4 Type 054(A) from China. Not to mention the fact that a single 054 probably cost double that of an F22P.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think you are just over analysing things

a) We have already paid for Frigates 4 ones that we got back in 2005
so these are already paid for

b) After that we achieved Transfer of technology to build F22P locally 
at Pakistani ports 

c) The Type 054 is on our radars becasue our Navy heads have 
stated they are interested in heavier ships in China , and that is 
is the Type 054 - they would also be open to Upgraded F22P 
class ships (Another 4 , with more Air defence)

Either way we view it we will get another 4 frigates from China and 6 from US


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## ANG

Hi, here are my 2 cents. The PN definitely needs the Type 054A class ships. Also there have been various articles saying they are looking at them. but time will tell. In terms of costs, Pakistan always gets soft loans from China, as that country never seems to be able to pay for these big ticket items on her own.

Lastly, I hope the PN coordinates with the PAF on the SAM systems they buy for these ships, as it has been stated the PAF is currently evaluating 4 long range SAM systems, including the HQ-18 from China. Take care.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Penguin said:


> 1 of 4 initial F22Ps was built in Pakistan. Not ordering additional domestically built ships like the F22p would defeat the whole purpose of ToT in this case. Hence, I would consider it extremely unlikely that PN would get 4 Type 054(A) from China. Not to mention the fact that a single 054 probably cost double that of an F22P.



And the statement of the PN official, suggesting ' making the F-22 P more like the Type 054', would also point towards the PN thinking about leveraging the infrastructure and technological know-how obtained from the F-22P program into developing frigates with more of the capabilities the PN would like to see in its surface fleet.

It would be a good opportunity to collaborate with Chinese engineers in naval design (in modifying the F-22P) - perhaps a good interim step towards R&D of a completely new frigate down the line.

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## unicorn148

penumbra said:


> Someone show this guy the door....



what door you want to show..
if you have a source claiming that PN will be ordering Type -054A then show it........
more than the cost of type 054 a will be double that of F22p and now the PN thinking of buying new subs it will far too difficult


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## MZUBAIR

unicorn148 said:


> what door you want to show..
> if you have a source claiming that PN will be ordering Type -054A then show it........
> more than the cost of type 054 a will be double that of F22p and now the PN thinking of buying new subs it will far too difficult



Ur not finance Manager of Pakistan Navy.
Few years ago ur brothers were saying that we r not capable to buy F16's.

Look we are going to hav 60+ F16 blck 52 n MLU(equal to blck 52).

Ur brothers were saying that we cant buy AWACS...But we are getting 4 Saab n 4 Chinees Made AWACS

Ur brothers were saying that we cant buy frigates...we bough F22, Michnary from USA.

Ur brothers were saying we cant test missiles...but we are doing.

Now Lets talk abt Type-54, its on discussion board....n we hav budget of abt 500 Million $ for new frigates.
Pakistan only have the prob for u is that Pakistan dont announce openly.

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## graphican

MZUBAIR said:


> Ur not finance Manager of Pakistan Navy.
> Few years ago ur brothers were saying that we r not capable to buy F16's.
> 
> Look we are going to hav 60+ F16 blck 52 n MLU(equal to blck 52).
> 
> Ur brothers were saying that we cant buy AWACS...But we are getting 4 Saab n 4 Chinees Made AWACS
> 
> Ur brothers were saying that we cant buy frigates...we bough F22, Michnary from USA.
> 
> Ur brothers were saying we cant test missiles...but we are doing.
> 
> Now Lets talk abt Type-54, its on discussion board....n we hav budget of abt 500 Million $ for new frigates.
> Pakistan only have the prob for u is that Pakistan dont announce openly.



Its only India who likes to shout for every bullet they make otherwise no other country likes to disclose what they are doing. We never knew about Ra'ad unless it was a realtiy, we never knew about JFT until it took its first flight and so was the case for AWACS. Sometimes when we do not hear news from Pakistan we feel as if we are passive but its a fact we more concerned about our defence than India because we face greater threat from India than India feels from us. 

Anyway, Pakistan has tons of natural reserves and every thinkable wealth a country may need to prosper.. No matter how up or down our economy went, we always got what we needed. For the larger frigates, I have no doubts that if we need them, we will have them.


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## truthseeker2010

which would be more suitable for PN 054 or 054A?

this might be off topic: I have seen that Indian Naval combatants have anti-submarine rocket launchers mostly RBU-6000, what is the allied equivalent of this, and are they really effective given a range of just 6 km, why would submarine come so close?


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## Areesh

unicorn148 said:


> what door you want to show..
> if you have a source claiming that PN will be ordering Type -054A then show it........
> more than the cost of type 054 a will be double that of F22p and now the PN thinking of buying new subs it will far too difficult



I think you need to read the whole discussion and the posts above this post of yours. Please read what AM, Penguin and other guys are talking about.


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## Penguin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think you are just over analysing things
> 
> a) We have already paid for Frigates 4 ones that we got back in 2005
> so these are already paid for
> 
> b) After that we achieved Transfer of technology to build F22P locally
> at Pakistani ports
> 
> c) The Type 054 is on our radars becasue our Navy heads have
> stated they are interested in heavier ships in China , and that is
> is the Type 054 - they would also be open to Upgraded F22P
> class ships (Another 4 , with more Air defence)
> 
> Either way we view it we will get another 4 frigates from China and 6 from US



Let's analyze this:

ad a) Exactly which four frigates did PN get in 2005? The only major ships added in this decade are the 3 chinese newbuilt F22P and the ex-USN McInerney. 

ad b) There is a fourth F22P currently building already in Pakistan.

ad c) So, where is the money coming from to pay for 4 additional domestically built modified F22P plus 4 Type 054(A) to be built by/in China, in addition to any acquisition of addditional OHP/FFG7 type ships and possibly Milgem? 

Come on, get real.


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## Penguin

MZUBAIR said:


> Now Lets talk abt Type-54, its on discussion board....n we hav budget of abt 500 Million $ for new frigates.



Well, consider this:

"Frigates In October 2007, Morocco confirmed that it had ordered a FREMM multirole frigate from French warship-builder DCNS, becoming the first export customer for the new 5,800-tonne vessel that France and Italy are building under a joint programme. The contract was finalised in April 2008. The vessel is laid down in the first half of 2010 with launch scheduled for 2011 and delivery and commissioning following in 2013. The contract value reflects the projected unit cost of a FREMM frigate at around EUR382 million, although the export package include ancillary equipment and other items is reported to be worth a total of EUR470 million (USD740 million). "
Morocco (Morocco) - Jane's Naval Construction and Retrofit Markets

Let's assume a Type 054A costs half what a FREMM costs. That amounts to a unit cost of EUR191 million and EUR235 million ($370 million) for a complete support, services and training package.

Your $500 million would buy about 1 and 1/3 ship ...

And there are other quotes for the Moroccan FREMM out that as high as EUR 500 million (about $710 million)! 
Morocco to Buy a French FREMM Frigate

Which doesn't sound unreasonable, considering:

"On February 6, 2008, Morocco signed a USD$1.2 billion contract with Schelde Naval Shipbuilding for two [2025 ton] SIGMA 9813 and one [2335 ton] SIGMA 10145 which are modified versions of the existing SIGMA Class design."
Sigma class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That amounts to about $400 per ship and these are considerably smaller and more lightly armed ships than FREMM.

Now some estimates for Type 054A go as low as $238 million (1.58 billion yuan renminbi). 
Type 054A frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even if this were the case, your $500 million would still buy just 2 and a bit (and no other frigates or corvettes whatsoever)

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## Penguin

truthseeker2010 said:


> which would be more suitable for PN 054 or 054A?
> 
> this might be off topic: I have seen that Indian Naval combatants have anti-submarine rocket launchers mostly RBU-6000, what is the allied equivalent of this, and are they really effective given a range of just 6 km, why would submarine come so close?



Traditionally, Russians employed large heavyweight torpedos (533mm) for ASW whereas Western navies used Lightweight ASW torpedoes (324mm). The RBU is a close-in backup to those heavies and usefull in shallow waters or - with a different rocket - as hard-kill anti-torpedo weapon (UDAV). Western navies have tended to employ a Nixie torpedo decoy instead. In contrast, PLAN uses lightweights for ASW in combination with bow mounted ASW rockets.

Most torpedoes used by subs don't have long range and are used close in. Below some maximum ranges.

Russia (max range at high speed)
SAET-60: 14,200 yards (13,000 m) / 42 knots 
SAET-60M: about 16,400 yards (15,000 m) / 40 knots
53-65: 18,000 metres (20,000 yd)
53-65K: 19,000 metres (21,000 yd)
53-65M: 22,000 metres (24,000 yd)
Test-71:
16,400 yards (15,000 m) / 40 knots 
27,300 yards (25,000 m) /35 knots
Russia / USSR Post-World War II Torpedoes

UK
Spearfish:
1981 version: About 23,000 yards (21,000 m) / 60+ knots 
1994 version: Range unknown / 80+ knots
Tigerfish:
23,000 yards (21,000 m) / 35 knots 
about 30,000 yards (27,400 m) / 24 knots
British Torpedoes after World War II

USA:
Mk48
38 km at 55 kt 
50 km at 40 kt 
USA Torpedoes since World War II

Germany
DM2
A-3: 22,000 yards (20,000 m) / 35 knots (lower speed setting for increased range) 
A-4: 55,000 yards (~50,000 m) max range / 50 knots max speed (different speed/range settings)
SST-3
24,000 yards (22,000 m) / 35 knots 
56,000 yards (51,200 m) / 23 knots
SST-4
12,000 yards (11,000 m) / 35 knots 
22,000 yards (20,000 m) / 28 knots 
40,000 yards (37,000 m) / 23 knots
SUT
13,100 yards (12,000 m) / 35 knots 
30,600 yards (28,000 m) / 23 knots
German Torpedoes Post World War II

At long ranges, ship tend to use helicopters with lightweight ASW torpedoes anyway.


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## IamINDIA

hmm.......i have to say the type 054 looks similar to the shivalik class frigates........i might be because they both are stealth ,but i dont kno ......


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## sunakaffck

currently Type 054 Frigate is the most advanced frigate in chinese navy and costs over 1.5 billion us dollers means 4 x 1.5=6 billion. sorry dude not yet


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## IamINDIA

sunakaffck said:


> currently Type 054 Frigate is the most advanced frigate in chinese navy and costs over 1.5 billion us dollers means 4 x 1.5=6 billion. sorry dude not yet



lol they cost 1.5bil yuan not dollars.........which is very low for a stealth frigate


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## ANG

Hi, the only way Pakistan can get these ships is via a long term soft loan (meaning low deferred interest) from China. No other country will provide Pakistan with this type of payment arrangement. 

Pakistan is in no shape to cough up $2B+ for ships and subs on its own, that is the sad truth. The country is pleading with the IMF for loans to pay its upcoming debt interest servicing, therefore such a large expenditure is not possible on its own. Take care.


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## Penguin

IamINDIA said:


> lol they cost 1.5bil yuan not dollars.........which is very low for a stealth frigate



$238 million (1.58 billion yuan renminbi). 

Still, on a $500 million budget fro frigates that means you can get only 2. Alternatively, a 4-ship class would set you back $952 million.


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## unicorn148

Penguin said:


> $238 million (1.58 billion yuan renminbi).
> 
> Still, on a $500 million budget fro frigates that means you can get only 2. Alternatively, a 4-ship class would set you back $952 million.



yes but the whole package along with missiles and all other will make it approx to 1.5 billion $ or more..... for the four ships.....


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## truthseeker2010

$500 mil, is it per year? if yes then the purchase might be possible if you distribute the cost over 4-5 years. 
But if is a total procurement budget of PN then it might not because there are others projects also in the pipeline like subs, milgem...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well since 2005 , we did recieve at least 20 billion dollars in aid , so I am sure that some of that will be used for proper funding of navy (please remember some of it is for forces)

Also lets not forget that we will also get transit fee for gas for the gas pipeline  from two pipelines (iran-pakistan gas pipeline) and (US sponsored Turkamanistan - Pakistan gas line)

Not to mention that we also have a positive surplus now and then , yes in 2010 we took a massive hit due to floods but still our naval orders were placed before 2010 in 2009 or 2007 I think so these have already been placed


I think we already paid for the 4 more more F22P with upgrading to 
F23P designations, and TyPE 054 will also arrive in block of 4 the question is will it be 2014 or 2016

I would not be suprised if in 2011 I learn we are getting 4 completed ships from China just like that - I mean china's production capacity is just un matched


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Deccan Herald: Latest News, Nation, World, Business, Technology, Karnataka News & Headlines

Pak to deepen cooperation with Chinese Navy, buy bigger ships 
Beijing, Jul 23 - 2010 (PTI): 

Pakistan plans to deepen military cooperation with China as it seeks to buy* bigger naval ships *with *more firepower in addition to several frigates it has already ordered* from its ''all weather'' ally. 


Pakistan hopes to buy bigger ships with more firepower from China, such as *4,000 ton class frigates*, Pakistan Naval Chief Admiral Noman Bashir said today.

He said Pakistan Navy is very satisfied with the performance of the F-22P frigate it bought from China. Two of the four F-22P frigates it ordered are already in service in Pakistan Navy, with the third one scheduled to be commissioned on September 15 this year.

It is also expected that all the four ships will be in service by 2013.

"We are very happy with the performance, and some technology is as good as in Western countries," Bashir was quoted as saying by the state run China Daily today.
Pakistan has proposed to develop strategic maritime cooperation with China in both military and commercial sects, such as in fishery, economic development zones, and cargo, he said.

"The friendship between China and Pakistan is greater than the Himalayas and deeper than the Ocean. We already made progress in air force and other areas, now we should further and expand the cooperation in Navy, a broadly-based relation," he said
He also said Pakistan&#8217;s strategic geographical location in the Arabian Sea and its long coastline could contribute to the missions of Chinese navy, particularly in the context of energy need from the Persian Gulf.

Pakistan also has rich experiences in countering illegal activities at sea in order to maintain maritime security, four ships participated in anti-piracy operations, and there has been no act of maritime terrorism in its region in the recent past.

"We can provide facilities, ports, logistics, maintenance among other things (to Chinese navy),&#8221; said a Pakistan Navy official.

*Pakistan hopes to buy more ships from China, UK and France according to its development plan, he said. *


....

k More Ships from China = 4 x F22P->F23P and the 4x 4,000 Ton frigate = Type 084B





k More ships from England = 3 x Type 42 Batch destroyers from UK





k More ships from US = 6 OHP class friagtes (on table)

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## Aamir Hussain

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well since 2005 , we did recieve at least 20 billion dollars in aid , so I am sure that some of that will be used for proper funding of navy (please remember some of it is for forces)
> 
> Also lets not forget that we will also get transit fee for gas for the gas pipeline  from two pipelines (iran-pakistan gas pipeline) and (US sponsored Turkamanistan - Pakistan gas line)
> 
> Not to mention that we also have a positive surplus now and then , yes in 2010 we took a massive hit due to floods but still our naval orders were placed before 2010 in 2009 or 2007 I think so these have already been placed
> 
> 
> I think we already paid for the 4 more more F22P with upgrading to
> F23P designations, and TyPE 054 will also arrive in block of 4 the question is will it be 2014 or 2016
> 
> I would not be suprised if in 2011 I learn we are getting 4 completed ships from China just like that - I mean china's production capacity is just un matched



Pal where are you coming up with this payment schedule or it is just AzadKhiyali???


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Aamir Hussain said:


> Pal where are you coming up with this payment schedule or it is just AzadKhiyali???



IMF gave us what 7 billion , and US gave us 3 billion then beefed up the aid by another 5 billion or so for civilian usage , that is close to 15 billion 

We also make 5 -8billion in remittance yearly - so its not impossible for us to purchase what we need -

Plus we have a economy which generates $$ income yearly in billions 

We have enough funds to purchase 

3 destroyers, 5 Type 053B and also get the 6 OHP frigates

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

BBC News - US to announce major military aid package for Pakistan

US to give Pakistan Military 2 Billion dollars 
21 October 2010 
$2,000,000,000

Since 2005, Pakistan has received more than $1bn (&#163;636.4m) of military aid a year from the US - and received close to $2bn for the last fiscal year.Comments taken out from the document lol

I realy doubt we need soft loans but friends offer softloans to friends as well

2005 , 1 billion 
2006 , 1 billion 
2007 , 1 billion 
2008 , 1 billion 
2009 , 1 billion 
2010 , 1 billion 

So who is buying the destroyer and frigates and more frigate 

This is on top of what we got from IMF , and other civilian packages 

_The new *five-year security assistance package*, expected to be announced on Friday, is meant to complement a $7.5bn package of civilian aid over five years that was approved by the US in 2009._

Meaning 

Clinton announced 2 billion dollar package and !!!! AND ... we get new aid package for 5 more years

2011 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
2012 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
2013 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
2014 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
2015 (Clinton Recommended a new package)









Lets not forget we have a 100-300 billion dollar economy too ... lets not count oursleves as no body if there was no war we would have got at least 100 billion from our economy and tourism


And in case you missed Chinese Leader also closed deals for up to *30 billion dollars* with Pakistan

So ... ehm cough cough money is not our concern

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

U.S. seeks $2 billion in military aid for Pakistan
U.S. seeks $2 billion in military aid for Pakistan | Reuters

By Andrew Quinn and David Alexander
WASHINGTON | Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:02am BST

(Reuters) - The United States announced $2 billion (1.3 billion pounds) in military aid for Pakistan on Friday as the two countries sought to dispel doubts about Islamabad's commitment to uprooting Islamist insurgents from safe havens on its soil.

"The United States has no stronger partner when it comes to counterterrorism efforts against the extremists who threaten us both than Pakistan," Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in announcing plans to ask Congress for *another five-year aid package*.
The military aid, which would help put Pakistan's war planning on a more stable footing, would complement a $7.5 billion multiyear package of civilian assistance already cleared by U.S. lawmakers.
Clinton said the administration would also ask for *$27 million to fund military education and training in Pakistan*, one of the largest recipients of U.S. foreign military aid after Israel and Egypt

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## Penguin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Deccan Herald: Latest News, Nation, World, Business, Technology, Karnataka News & Headlines
> 
> Pak to deepen cooperation with Chinese Navy, buy bigger ships
> Beijing, Jul 23 - 2010 (PTI):
> 
> *Pakistan hopes to buy more ships from China, UK and France according to its development plan, he said. *
> 
> k More Ships from China = 4 x F22P->F23P and the 4x 4,000 Ton frigate = Type 084B
> 
> k More ships from England = 3 x Type 42 Batch destroyers from UK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> k More ships from US = 6 OHP class friagtes (on table)



AFAIK, there is no Chinese ship designated Type 084B, the ship pictures is a Type 054A

The UK ship depicted is a Type 45 ( = new, latest ), not a Type 42 (used)

The article speaks of ships from China, UK and France (it mentions neither USA - OHP/FFG7 - nor Turkey - Milgem)


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## Penguin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> IMF gave us what 7 billion , and US gave us 3 billion then beefed up the aid by another 5 billion or so for civilian usage , that is close to 15 billion
> 
> We also make 5 -8billion in remittance yearly - so its not impossible for us to purchase what we need -
> 
> Plus we have a economy which generates $$ income yearly in billions
> 
> We have enough funds to purchase
> 
> 3 destroyers, 5 Type 053B and also get the 6 OHP frigates



There is no such chinese ship as a Type 053B and I'm not aware that UK has actually sold Pakistan decommissioned Type-42s or will do so in the the foreseeable future. 

Assuming the ships decommed this and last year would end up in PN service, they are - as all Type 42s in UK - without AShMs. There are no non-UK operators of Sea Dart, except for ARA (Argentine navy ;-)

While 6 were requested , it remains to be seen how many OHPs will end up in PN and when, as there are few currently decommissining (3, of which 1 will be a spares hulk) and there are other takers (Taiwan, seeking to replace its even older ex-US Knox frigates)


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## Penguin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> BBC News - US to announce major military aid package for Pakistan
> 
> US to give Pakistan Military 2 Billion dollars
> 21 October 2010
> $2,000,000,000
> 
> Since 2005, Pakistan has received more than $1bn (&#163;636.4m) of military aid a year from the US - and received close to $2bn for the last fiscal year.Comments taken out from the document lol
> 
> I realy doubt we need soft loans but friends offer softloans to friends as well
> 
> 2005 , 1 billion
> 2006 , 1 billion
> 2007 , 1 billion
> 2008 , 1 billion
> 2009 , 1 billion
> 2010 , 1 billion
> 
> So who is buying the destroyer and frigates and more frigate
> 
> This is on top of what we got from IMF , and other civilian packages
> 
> _The new *five-year security assistance package*, expected to be announced on Friday, is meant to complement a $7.5bn package of civilian aid over five years that was approved by the US in 2009._
> 
> Meaning
> 
> Clinton announced 2 billion dollar package and !!!! AND ... we get new aid package for 5 more years
> 
> 2011 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
> 2012 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
> 2013 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
> 2014 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
> 2015 (Clinton Recommended a new package)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets not forget we have a 100-300 billion dollar economy too ... lets not count oursleves as no body if there was no war we would have got at least 100 billion from our economy and tourism
> 
> 
> And in case you missed Chinese Leader also closed deals for up to *30 billion dollars* with Pakistan
> 
> So ... ehm cough cough money is not our concern



1. Why are you getting aid in the first place? Because you're so rich? Why has PN consistantly acquired used ships from foreign sources?
2. You suppose that aid money is not earmarked for certain things, and comes without any strings attached? You seriously think you can just use a few billion for buying ships and subs?

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## Penguin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> U.S. seeks $2 billion in military aid for Pakistan
> U.S. seeks $2 billion in military aid for Pakistan | Reuters
> 
> By Andrew Quinn and David Alexander
> WASHINGTON | Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:02am BST
> 
> (Reuters) - The United States announced $2 billion (1.3 billion pounds) in military aid for Pakistan on Friday as the two countries sought to dispel doubts about Islamabad's commitment to uprooting Islamist insurgents from safe havens on its soil.
> 
> "The United States has no stronger partner when it comes to counterterrorism efforts against the extremists who threaten us both than Pakistan," Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in announcing plans to ask Congress for *another five-year aid package*.
> The military aid, which would help put Pakistan's war planning on a more stable footing, would complement a $7.5 billion multiyear package of civilian assistance already cleared by U.S. lawmakers.
> Clinton said the administration would also ask for *$27 million to fund military education and training in Pakistan*, one of the largest recipients of U.S. foreign military aid after Israel and Egypt



If any of this money is spent on ships at all, it will be on inshore patrol vessels. Like the five fast patrol boats it received from the US in February 2010, for the use of Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency.

Besides, has it occurred to you that these announcement might (at least in part) refer to the aid package's worth rather than the transfer of a certain amount of funds? The fact that aid COSTS the US a certain amount doesn't necessarily mean that Pakistan receives that amount as funding.


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## ANG

Hi, what I find the saddest part is how it is mentioned Pakistan receives this amount of aid and it is actually factored into decision making. The current Pakistani government (and I stress government) is nothing but a bunch of beggars, and with their begging attitude, they will never be able to pay for any large purchase. I still believe the PN simply cannot pay for these ships whether Chinese or Western, as they do not have the funds. Take care.


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## Jigs

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> U.S. seeks $2 billion in military aid for Pakistan
> U.S. seeks $2 billion in military aid for Pakistan | Reuters
> 
> By Andrew Quinn and David Alexander
> WASHINGTON | Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:02am BST
> 
> (Reuters) - The United States announced $2 billion (1.3 billion pounds) in military aid for Pakistan on Friday as the two countries sought to dispel doubts about Islamabad's commitment to uprooting Islamist insurgents from safe havens on its soil.
> 
> "The United States has no stronger partner when it comes to counterterrorism efforts against the extremists who threaten us both than Pakistan," Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in announcing plans to ask Congress for *another five-year aid package*.
> The military aid, which would help put Pakistan's war planning on a more stable footing, would complement a $7.5 billion multiyear package of civilian assistance already cleared by U.S. lawmakers.
> Clinton said the administration would also ask for *$27 million to fund military education and training in Pakistan*, one of the largest recipients of U.S. foreign military aid after Israel and Egypt



If Pakistan like you say is getting billions in military aid why are they buying 30 year old OHPs from the U.S. ? Not to mention still operating type 21s that are almost 40 years old now. Let us be realistic in military procurements. People here speculate on way too much before stuff is even signed or deals are even mentioned. It leads to misinformation after a while.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well the (military) aid money is not for charity , the civilian aid is seperate

*The aid money is our DUES because we lost 100 billion dollar over the last 10 years *

*If there was no war in our backyard , we would make 100-150 billion dollars on our own *

So if our allies want to offer their condolences and make up for things they are trying to assit us 

Which is why US has offered us the OHP , frigates which is understandable as we share a past history with Americans countries always help each other out. So that is why we have understanding for 6 frigates with US to help develop cooperation in marinetime operations against piracy and terrorist using waters to smuggle weapons, Also that is reward for our participation in war on terror initiative.


The money for military is just a commitment from US that look we will not make same mistake as it was done in 1990's when Pakistan was left along so they are helping us , with Financial Aid package to help develop the armed units and apologize for 1990's 


The reason of post is not to undermine US , we appreciate the OHP greatly it will be a integral part of our operations but at same time our Navy has needs 

So we need

3 destroyers from UK 
4 Type 054 from China 
And US is giving us 6 OHP as part of our cooperation 


Remember guys , we lost 100 billion in war on terror so if we got back 
10-15 billion dollars its the least US can do to help us out for being there in time of need.

As for China they are our GREAT NEIGHBOUR and great FRIENDLY nation so obviously we and China are very close BROTHERS ....we are like Canada and China is like US two neighbouring countries with great ties 


The OHP is a capable ship it will be one of largest ships in Pakistan Navy and it gives us good learning ability to use and learn 

We really do need 15 ships and this is a start 

Thats all it is ... OHP meets our requirements , with refurbishment and we are also investing in newer stealthy Chinese ships so we cover both our bases - new and capable current models

We are getting OHP because its our due for investing great financial and human losses suffered by our nation. And its a good deal 75 million was it ? Its almost free which is great start

The articles state the figures very clearly since 2005 we were given 1 billion annually by US for our military !!! 

And recently we got another 2 billion and discussions for on going *5 year post war support guarentee 5 billion*

OHP is not a junk ship its a current model can serve a navy for 15 years specially with Genesis upgrading

Pakistan maintains its *military *and *civilian aid* projects different
so not to be confused 

And if some one asks so why we need aid simple ? we have a war in our back yard since 1970 , and actually we should get 3 billion / year for losses our econommy suffered due to these illegal wars but since we have a understanding we have not complained about 1 billion / year deal

So I think we are in good shape to get 

4 Type 054 , 4000 tones from china as mentioned in article May be 1.5 billion with discounts
3 UK destroyers when they retire in few years (May be 1 billion here for 3 ships)6 OHP which might just retire some of our ageing ships frist (come cheap 75 million only)

Plus the Submarine deals we have with China for 7 submarines (With soft loans)

So we still have about 12-15 billion in reserves in pipeline for our military aid

We still need 1-2 billion for J1OB 100 planes so that fund would come handy for it

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## muse

Please do make an attempt to make sense - no one owes Pakistan for the losses Pakistan has incurred.

Perhaps instead of focusing on what Pakistan's economy and infrastructure has suffered, we should focus on how Pakistani politicians have failed to grow the economy, but have succeeded in growing their personal fortunes.

A mentality which insists that the world owes Pakistan a living, is one which is fundamentally flawed and at odds with reality.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Its *moral obligation * and this is why US is funding the security package and its right thing to do ... THE MORAL right thing

US made a tactical mistake when in 90's they left and which left a vaccume , a political vaccume which got filled by extremist 

So now US is doing the correct thing funding Pakistan so we can upgrade our capabilities to tackle terror in all forms 

And to be honest I think its a the right direction 

The Turkamanistan - Pakistan deals are in the right direction its good for our economy , and we don't want terrorist in Afghanistan it hurts our economy 

It would be best if we can also get our 80 billion loans forgiven for losses to our economy , we have been a good friend in need 

I mean who would accept war on their borders if it was not for extraordinary close understanding between US and Pakistan.

I fully agree our politicians are currupt but , when terrorist are blowing bombs inside country then economy suffers 

The 6 OHP frigates are step in right direction and they also offered us a destroyer so we should accept these from US and help end terror in Afghanistan by setting up a permenent base in Afghanistan 

The Turkamanistan - Pakistan gas deal will help fuel economy and also the iran pakistan gas pipeline will help provide energy all the way to china 

Really what is needed is that Pakistan is fully supported in the time of need - and let the 90's never be repeated again

I know some would compare Pakistan - China closeness to Pakistan -US but the history is different China is a trade country , US is more of world police so its different relation between nations... boy oh boy I sound like a politicians any one need a diplomat up in washington I will get you F22 raptors


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## Aamir Hussain

This thinking that the World "Owes us" is turning us into beggars!!! This is serious stuff my friend. I like you but you need to seriously do a rethink on where you are coming with this "The World Owes Us" bit. 

Get it through your head -- we did this to ourselves -- no one pushed us to do what we have been doing since 1953. All our leaders have been peddling Pakistan as Army for hire since the very early years of Pakistan, till today.

On your accounting of the money sent by ex-pat Pakistani's - they are not sent to GoP -- in-fact GoP owes this money in Rupees to its citizens.

If you really want to have a logical and informed discussion then do read Shuja Nawaz's Crossed Swords to read about our early efforts to engage US and do pay attention to sometime self defeating rantings of General Hameed Gul-- he will tell you that we were the ones and not the US who put our foot squarely in Afghanistan turmoil first and dragged everyone else in. Do read books written by some of our brilliant ambassadors etc. Learn to understand that the Afghan victory was a defeat before the "Stinger" and the immense material and moral support of the rest of the world happened. We just organized the circus/party. Whatever we did afterwards was our own "Empire " building effort -- which we screwed up big time. 

Read and learn my friend --you have the fire and the passion to be fiercely Pakistani -- be an informed Pakistani -- we need a lot more of these than just Pakistanis'. Pakistan Zindabad!

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## truthseeker2010

good dreaming.... you forgot the other share of other two in this cake.


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## Mani2020

I think everyone here knows it that AzadPakistan is always been blinded by sheer optimism and blind patriotism ,his every post will speak for it .from day one till today he has just made a wishlist without being rational .so nobody can blame him or bash him as this is what he is doing from day1 till today and got a senior rank

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## IamINDIA

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well the (military) aid money is not for charity , the civilian aid is seperate
> 
> *The aid money is our DUES because we lost 100 billion dollar over the last 10 years *
> 
> *If there was no war in our backyard , we would make 100-150 billion dollars on our own *
> So if our allies want to offer their condolences and make up for things they are trying to assit us
> 
> Which is why US has offered us the OHP , frigates which is understandable as we share a past history with Americans countries always help each other out. So that is why we have understanding for 6 frigates with US to help develop cooperation in marinetime operations against piracy and terrorist using waters to smuggle weapons, Also that is reward for our participation in war on terror initiative.
> 
> 
> The money for military is just a commitment from US that look we will not make same mistake as it was done in 1990's when Pakistan was left along so they are helping us , with Financial Aid package to help develop the armed units and apologize for 1990's
> 
> 
> The reason of post is not to undermine US , we appreciate the OHP greatly it will be a integral part of our operations but at same time our Navy has needs
> 
> So we need
> 
> 3 destroyers from UK
> 4 Type 054 from China
> And US is giving us 6 OHP as part of our cooperation
> 
> 
> Remember guys , we lost 100 billion in war on terror so if we got back
> 10-15 billion dollars its the least US can do to help us out for being there in time of need.
> 
> As for China they are our GREAT NEIGHBOUR and great FRIENDLY nation so obviously we and China are very close BROTHERS ....we are like Canada and China is like US two neighbouring countries with great ties
> 
> 
> The OHP is a capable ship it will be one of largest ships in Pakistan Navy and it gives us good learning ability to use and learn
> 
> We really do need 15 ships and this is a start
> 
> Thats all it is ... OHP meets our requirements , with refurbishment and we are also investing in newer stealthy Chinese ships so we cover both our bases - new and capable current models
> 
> We are getting OHP because its our due for investing great financial and human losses suffered by our nation. And its a good deal 75 million was it ? Its almost free which is great start
> 
> The articles state the figures very clearly since 2005 we were given 1 billion annually by US for our military !!!
> 
> And recently we got another 2 billion and discussions for on going *5 year post war support guarentee 5 billion*
> 
> OHP is not a junk ship its a current model can serve a navy for 15 years specially with Genesis upgrading
> 
> Pakistan maintains its *military *and *civilian aid* projects different
> so not to be confused
> 
> And if some one asks so why we need aid simple ? we have a war in our back yard since 1970 , and actually we should get 3 billion / year for losses our econommy suffered due to these illegal wars but since we have a understanding we have not complained about 1 billion / year deal
> 
> So I think we are in good shape to get
> 
> 4 Type 054 , 4000 tones from china as mentioned in article May be 1.5 billion with discounts
> 3 UK destroyers when they retire in few years (May be 1 billion here for 3 ships)6 OHP which might just retire some of our ageing ships frist (come cheap 75 million only)
> 
> Plus the Submarine deals we have with China for 7 submarines (With soft loans)
> 
> So we still have about 12-15 billion in reserves in pipeline for our military aid
> 
> We still need 1-2 billion for J1OB 100 planes so that fund would come handy for it



lol dude i appreciate your optimism......but there is a serious flaw ,the loss of 100-150billion dollars was is in civilian,infratructure and other things.

there wasn't like a magic bunker with 100-150bilion dollars in hard cash that got blown up by the taliban


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

k no problemo , we will wait untill we get the announcement for 
Type 053 , and submarines  

Well I just don't understand why every one says we don't have cash

I just posted *two references *with money figures in them 

I mean really 1 billion annually from 2005-2010 , and then another 2 billion in 2010 , and then promise of package of another 5 billion 

I think is more then enough to purchase 

4 Type 053 ships , and some cheap items like OHP 6 of them and other items..

And the money is just because its for losses to our economy its not a donation , if it was not paid we would have gone to court and sued someone for losses in economy. 

Just like US sued BP for oil spill losses in economy war in afghanistan is our BP oil spill

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## khurasaan1

muse said:


> Please do make an attempt to make sense - no one owes Pakistan for the losses Pakistan has incurred.
> 
> Perhaps instead of focusing on what Pakistan's economy and infrastructure has suffered, we should focus on how Pakistani politicians have failed to grow the economy, but have succeeded in growing their personal fortunes.
> 
> A mentality which insists that the world owes Pakistan a living, is one which is fundamentally flawed and at odds with reality.



But Sir I have to add something here about what the world and especially US owe us. Pak saved the world from the curse of communism and made the US the only global super power in the world. If at this time US won't sincerely care about Pak then I guess they will loose their status very soon . Hence the world owe us big time. US is not doing any favor by helping us out, instead they are doing favor to themselves...
just my 2centz...bro's


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## khurasaan1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> k no problemo , we will wait untill we get the announcement for
> Type 053 , and submarines
> 
> Well I just don't understand why every one says we don't have cash
> 
> I just posted *two references *with money figures in them
> 
> I mean really 1 billion annually from 2005-2010 , and then another 2 billion in 2010 , and then promise of package of another 5 billion
> 
> I think is more then enough to purchase
> 
> 4 Type 053 ships , and some cheap items like OHP 6 of them and other items..
> 
> And the money is just because its for losses to our economy its not a donation , if it was not paid we would have gone to court and sued someone for losses in economy.
> 
> Just like US sued BP for oil spill losses in economy war in afghanistan is our BP oil spill



I guess the other pplz in the forum don't wanna agree to u ..cuz I guess they know that the aid money promised by the US or western/world is just for the cheap popularity in the newspapers and thats all. This aid will never be reimbursed to Pak....


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Business & Financial News, Breaking US & International News | Reuters.com is a very reputable world news outlet from which other news companies get their data from , and also the cash has already been given its not if it will be given 

In any case, I will not add more 

I just based my thoughts on the press releases and actual figures that I see reported in reputable media (not a tabloid) , if people like to state ok we have no funds , and we are poor and we are cash stripped its their own decision and respect to individual thought 

I just see too much evidence to assume that we don't have 9-14 billion with Army which will be used for both Airforce and Navy in upcoming years

In any case I am just excited for OHP to arrive in January , and will see how 2011 shapes up  and hope we continue to get the OHP as planned, and the F22P we have being build in Karachi should also be making good progress


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## mwaqas93

I've been on one of these....


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## Super Falcon

hope our navy wakes up and sign some real deals


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## Penguin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 4 Type 053 ships



Chuckles ..... 

Type 053 frigate: Designed in 1962 ...


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## Penguin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Business & Financial News, Breaking US & International News | Reuters.com is a very reputable world news outlet from which other news companies get their data from , and also the cash has already been given its not if it will be given
> 
> In any case, I will not add more
> 
> I just based my thoughts on the press releases and actual figures that I see reported in reputable media (not a tabloid) , if people like to state ok we have no funds , and we are poor and we are cash stripped its their own decision and respect to individual thought
> 
> I just see too much evidence to assume that we don't have 9-14 billion with Army which will be used for both Airforce and Navy in upcoming years
> 
> In any case I am just excited for OHP to arrive in January , and will see how 2011 shapes up  and hope we continue to get the OHP as planned, and the F22P we have being build in Karachi should also be making good progress



Again:
- aid packages WORTH a certain amount don't necessarily mean Pakistan is given MONEY (but rather material items e.g. equipment, supplies or training).
- even if money is disbursed, there are things Pakistan needs to do with that money, verifyable things. Either you DO things andthen get refunded the cost upon presentation of proof that you did. Or it is monitored whether you spend funds on 'ear marked' purposes. So, you can just simple use a portion (a couple of billion) of aid money for other purposes (like buying ships from China).


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## Desert Fox

monitor said:


> from pshamim
> Breaking News
> Pakdef exclusive
> 
> Pakistan &#8216;s official stance has not been to enter into an arms race with India but it is determined to not only maintain a favorable strategic parity but also maintain superiority in selected area like underwater warfare.
> 
> Latest news is that PN has been negotiating with CSTC in China to acquire up to 6 Yuan cklass diesel-electric submarines
> With fuel cell based AIP systems. Each double hulled SSK is expected to cost about $230 Million.
> 
> Another intriguing news is of a possible 10 years lease of a 5500 Tons 091 HAN class nuclear submarine (SSGN) Along with these submarine, Pakistan is also expected to* buy 4 Jiankai 054 class FFGs.* I had reported the news couple of years ago. Now it seems that the negotiation are at a final stage
> 
> Deal was discussed in length last year with Chinese Vice President when he visited Pakistan last year.
> Deals are in advanced stage with Zardari being very enthusiastic. Hopefully we may hear more in near future.
> 
> Type-091 have been retrofitted and modernized. Either Changzheng 3 (403) or Changzheng-4 (404) is expected to end up in Pakistan for 10 years.
> 
> 
> The details are not classified and many countries are already in the knowledge. I have been assured of that and cleared to break the news. More non-classified informations will be posted on the subject soon


 
*Besides the Nuclear powered sub and the six AIP subs, These Jiangai Missile Frigates are pretty good and we should really look forward to getting these!*



> The Type 054A (NATO codename: Jiangkai-II Class) is the new-generation multirole missile frigate developed from the Type 054 (Jiangkai Class), incorporated with improved weapon systems and sensors. The frigate is being built by the Shanghai-based Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard and Guangzhou-based Huangpu Shipyard, both part of the China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC).
> 
> The Type 054A was designed primarily for air defence role, featuring a medium-range air defence missile system with a 32-cell vertical launch system (VLS) on the bow deck. The frigate is also capable of anti-surface strike with its YJ-83 anti-ship missiles.
> 
> *Like the Type 054, the Type 054A incorporates a number of stealthy features in its hull design, including the sloped side to minimise radar cross section and the reduced profiles of external features. *The helicopter deck at the stern has a single landing spot for a medium size helicopter, such as the Russian Kamov Ka-28 Helix, or the indigenous Harbin Z-9C. The deck is fitted with the helicopter handling system. The vessel has a full displacement of 4,500 tonnes.
> 
> Link:http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type054a-jiangkai-ii.asp

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## Indus Falcon

Jiangkai II





PLAN Type 054A Jiangkai Class Missile Frigate
The Type 054 (NATO codename: Jiangkai Class) is the new-generation multirole missile frigate for the PLA Navy. The main contractors are the Shanghai-based Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard and Guangzhou-based Huangpu Shipyard, both under the China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC). The ship was built in the improved Type 054A (Jiangkai-II class) variant, featuring an 32-cell air-defence missile VLS and Russian Top Plate 3D air search radar. The Type 054&#8217;s primary surface strike weapon system is the YJ-83 sea-skimming anti-ship cruise missile. Two quadruple launchers are installed at the mid-ship position. The missile uses active radar-homing to deliver a 165kg warhead to a range in excess of 180km. The initial two hulls in the Type 054 variant are equipped with an 8-cell Chinese indigenous HQ-7 (French Thales Crotale copy) short-range SAM system, with a maximum range of 13km. On the improved Type 054A this was replaced by a 32-cell VLS developed by Luoyang Electro-Optics Technology Development Centre (EOTDC). The exact model of the air defence missile is unknown, but some reports have suggested that it may be the 38km-range Russian 9M317 (NATO codename: SA-N-12) Shtil semi-active radar-homing medium-range SAM, or its Chinese copy reportedly designated HQ-16. The Type 054A is equipped with two Chinese indigenous Type 730 seven-barrel 30mm CIWS to provide short-range air defence. The Type 730 CIWS has a maximum rate of fire of 4,600~5,800 rounds/min and a maximum range of 3,000m. The gun is controlled by the Chinese-made TR47C fire-control radar and an electro-optic director, both mounted on the roof of the gun turret. A single-barrel 76mm gun (possibly Russian AK-176 copy) is installed on the bow deck. The ship also has two Type 87 six-tube anti-submarine rocket launchers, with 36 rockets (240mm calibre, 34kg warhead). The maximum range is 1,200m. (*The range doesn't make sense - too short for an ASW weapon system)

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## Indus Falcon

Mods: Please feel free to move these posts to the appropriate thread. Thank You

Type 054A guided-missile Frigate, FFG-530 &#8220;Xuzhou&#8221; 





Type 054A guided-missile Frigate, FFG-529 &#8220;Zhoushan&#8221;

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## Indus Falcon

Just wondering if we are getting the Jiangkai A or B ? Can anyone confirm?


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## tanlixiang28776

Abu Nasar said:


> Just wondering if we are getting the Jiangkai A or B ? Can anyone confirm?


 
F 22P already has the capabilities of the Jiangkai I. No reason to get it again


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## SAUD-404

tanlixiang28776 said:


> F 22P already has the capabilities of the Jiangkai I. No reason to get it again


 May be it is bigger ship and will be used as Air defense ship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Indus Falcon

tanlixiang28776 said:


> F 22P already has the capabilities of the Jiangkai I. No reason to get it again


 
Hmm there seems to be some ambiguity here. I believe there are three types of Jiangkai Type 054, Type 054A and Type 054B.

On the Type 054B, I believe there is one in service. Could someone please provide some details?


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## tanlixiang28776

Abu Nasar said:


> Hmm there seems to be some ambiguity here. I believe there are three types of Jiangkai Type 054, Type 054A and Type 054B.
> 
> On the Type 054B, I believe there is one in service. Could someone please provide some details?


 
No idea pal. Maybe in a few years.


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## SAUD-404

Abu Nasar said:


> Just wondering if we are getting the Jiangkai A or B ? Can anyone confirm?


Jiangkai B is more likely because we don't buy any thing old from china, We are a Strategic partners and Best friends And by any chance if PN went for Jiangkai A then Chinese wont allow us to buy any thing Below standards they are very concerned about our Regional Security needs. what or what not to buy with soft loans. Buy now pay later, Thats how true Friends they are


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## Indus Falcon

SAUD-404 said:


> Jiangkai B is more likely because we don't buy any thing old from china, We are a Strategic partners and Best friends And by any chance if PN went for Jiangkai A then Chinese wont allow us to buy any thing Below standards they are very concerned about our Regional Security needs. what or what not to buy with soft loans. Buy now pay later, Thats how true Friends they are


 
Well my guess was Type 054B as well, but there isn't any confirmation either way i.e. A or B? Maybe someone could get in touch with Pervaiz Sahab and find out whats really going on?


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## aliaselin

SAUD-404 said:


> Jiangkai B is more likely because we don't buy any thing old from china, We are a Strategic partners and Best friends And by any chance if PN went for Jiangkai A then Chinese wont allow us to buy any thing Below standards they are very concerned about our Regional Security needs. what or what not to buy with soft loans. Buy now pay later, Thats how true Friends they are


 
I think 054B will not come out in a few years, because there is no trace for our second aircraft carrier


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## origin eagle

Even after these incidents Chinese will never give up on Pakistan
Pakistan and china zindabad


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## monitor



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## Penguin

Abu Nasar said:


> Hmm there seems to be some ambiguity here. I believe there are three types of Jiangkai Type 054, Type 054A and Type 054B.
> 
> On the Type 054B, I believe there is one in service. Could someone please provide some details?


 
There are only 2 basic variants:
- Type 054 (NATO codename Jiangkai I) a.k.a. Ma'anshan class (pennant numbers 525, 526) 
Type 054 frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- Type 054A (NATO codename Jiangkai II) a.k.a. Xuzhou class (pennant numbers include 529, 530, 538, 548, 549, 568-571) 
Type 054A frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From a logistics point of view, the Type 054A, possibly with CIWS-fit modified to match F22P, would give a better match to F22P than Type 054, which not only has a different CIWS (4x Type 630) but also carries a different main gun (100mm). And clearly, while HQ7 on Type 054 would match that on F22P, I would presume that PN would prefer the more powerful and longer ranged HQ16 on these larger ships. That plus the fact that Type 054 may be considered 'pre-production test vessels' while Type 054A is clearly the 'production' vessel, I think Type 054A is the most likely candidate (which would then become something like F54P since it's export and might have small differences to meet specific customer requirements).

Type 054 525 and 526 have a slightly different knuckle in the hull-shape, which the later Type 054A don't have. To the extent that one of the later ship also displays this knuckly, it may well be that the hull was started as 054 but finished as 054A when the initial 2 ships provided sufficient proof of concept. However, there are no visible differences between the so-called 054B and the 054A in as far as ship systems (weapons, sensors) are concerned.

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## zulfiqar74

we are getting all these equipments ships planes guns free, i wish ALLAH gives aqal an sharam an hia to these people so that, cultural bias/ racism, rishwet, lawless ness finishes from this country.


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## zulfiqar74

IamINDIA said:


> lol dude i appreciate your optimism......but there is a serious flaw ,the loss of 100-150billion dollars was is in civilian,infratructure and other things.
> 
> there wasn't like a magic bunker with 100-150bilion dollars in hard cash that got blown up by the taliban



if the ministers an govt officials dont take their cut, an the country runs under strict fair laws, we will make trillions a year, unfortunately all the money goes in to secret foreign bank accounts an lavish foreign trips...


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## zulfiqar74

Mark Sien said:


> You'd be surprised how much revenue can be generated through taxing the landed feudals, affluent agriculturalists, certain swiss-accounts. Pakistan just needs coherent political direction, drive and daring leadership...the economy, infrastructure and military can be modernized and expanded in parallel, as opposed to one after another. The potential is definately there.



very well said, if this could only happen


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## very

It will be nice to get more warships from China

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## Janubaba

Pakistan should get as many of these ships as it can 4 or 8 and also go for more submarines because India is growing its NAVY


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## very

I am thinking that Pakistan shold upgrade its abilities and be able to manufacture their own Type-054A frigates/ships here at home too.


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## Donatello

very said:


> I am thinking that Pakistan shold upgrade its abilities and be able to manufacture their own Type-054A frigates/ships here at home too.




Hey Very,


It seems like you are posting here everything you think of.....you don't need to post in every thread to up your post count....


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## monitor




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## Cool_Soldier

Previous report says, Pakistan to get 4-type54a ships, later on there are rumors tha 2-type54a will be received on lease.dont know what is real deal is going on there.Anyway, hope for the best


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## monitor

Cool_Soldier said:


> Previous report says, Pakistan to get 4-type54a ships, later on there are rumors tha 2-type54a will be received on lease.dont know what is real deal is going on there.Anyway, hope for the best



For emergency they can take few as lease but for buying they should go for the bests and latest one .

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## zulfiqar74

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Its *moral obligation * and this is why US is funding the security package and its right thing to do ... THE MORAL right thing
> 
> US made a tactical mistake when in 90's they left and which left a vaccume , a political vaccume which got filled by extremist
> 
> So now US is doing the correct thing funding Pakistan so we can upgrade our capabilities to tackle terror in all forms
> 
> And to be honest I think its a the right direction
> 
> The Turkamanistan - Pakistan deals are in the right direction its good for our economy , and we don't want terrorist in Afghanistan it hurts our economy
> 
> It would be best if we can also get our 80 billion loans forgiven for losses to our economy , we have been a good friend in need
> 
> I mean who would accept war on their borders if it was not for extraordinary close understanding between US and Pakistan.
> 
> I fully agree our politicians are currupt but , when terrorist are blowing bombs inside country then economy suffers
> 
> The 6 OHP frigates are step in right direction and they also offered us a destroyer so we should accept these from US and help end terror in Afghanistan by setting up a permenent base in Afghanistan
> 
> The Turkamanistan - Pakistan gas deal will help fuel economy and also the iran pakistan gas pipeline will help provide energy all the way to china
> 
> Really what is needed is that Pakistan is fully supported in the time of need - and let the 90's never be repeated again
> 
> I know some would compare Pakistan - China closeness to Pakistan -US but the history is different China is a trade country , US is more of world police so its different relation between nations... boy oh boy I sound like a politicians any one need a diplomat up in washington I will get you F22 raptors


i think you have been already bought by the US,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## zulfiqar74

penumbra said:


> Hey Very,
> 
> 
> It seems like you are posting here everything you think of.....you don't need to post in every thread to up your post count....


of course there is a counter post to your an my post as well, we should not be writing, this is pakistan yar everyone is smart an well educated and has an opinion like they have an asshole....


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## Cool_Soldier

Thats what I am guessing, Pakistan is taking two Type-54A on lease with an option to buy them at end of lease time.
But later on, Pakistan is also going to buy 4 these ships with TOT with at least one build in Pakistan.


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## Dr. Strangelove

i still beleive that we get one more ohp after its retirment from the usnavy and then upgrading them with chinese weapons is not so hard


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## aziqbal

i dont think China has 2 Type054 to spare as of now, HP and HD shipyards are busy making these frigates and i highly doubt they have any room to spare 2 for PN, even a new order for newly built frigates would be a long wait, PLAN is right in the middle of fielding a massive navy with new Type 054A, Type 052Cs and Type 071 LPDs to centre around a carrier battle group 

maybe after 2015 the 2 older Type 054s would be avaible but they dont fit the requirments for PN< they would need modification


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## ChineseTiger1986

aziqbal said:


> i dont think China has 2 Type054 to spare as of now, HP and HD shipyards are busy making these frigates and i highly doubt they have any room to spare 2 for PN, even a new order for newly built frigates would be a long wait, PLAN is right in the middle of fielding a massive navy with new Type 054A, Type 052Cs and Type 071 LPDs to centre around a carrier battle group
> 
> maybe after 2015 the 2 older Type 054s would be avaible but they dont fit the requirments for PN< they would need modification



Well, PLAN will soon have the new 5500+ tons Type 054B in its inventory, so the Type 054A might be sooner than you thought.

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## aziqbal

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, PLAN will soon have the new 5500+ tons Type 054B in its inventory, so the Type 054A might be sooner than you thought.



current production run for the first 18 Type054A will run until 2015, only after that will they start on Type054B, either way its going to be 5+ years before anything in that class becomes avaible


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## regular

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, PLAN will soon have the new 5500+ tons Type 054B in its inventory, so the Type 054A might be sooner than you thought.


That is great. If we get them as soon as possible...


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## Penguin

aziqbal said:


> i dont think China has 2 Type054 to spare as of now, HP and HD shipyards are busy making these frigates and i highly doubt they have any room to spare 2 for PN, even a new order for newly built frigates would be a long wait, PLAN is right in the middle of fielding a massive navy with new Type 054A, Type 052Cs and Type 071 LPDs to centre around a carrier battle group
> 
> maybe after 2015 the 2 older Type 054s would be avaible but they dont fit the requirments for PN< they would need modification



I'm inclined to agree with Aziqbal on this.


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## Penguin

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, PLAN will soon have the new 5500+ tons Type 054B in its inventory, so the Type 054A might be sooner than you thought.


THere is no such thing, afaik. Please enhance your post with credible sources support your claim.

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------




aziqbal said:


> current production run for the first 18 Type054A will run until 2015, only after that will they start on Type054B, either way its going to be 5+ years before anything in that class becomes avaible


First thin China will build parallel to / after 054A is additional 052Cs. We've not seen anything beyond these 2 types (054A and 052C).


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## aziqbal

Penguin said:


> THere is no such thing, afaik. Please enhance your post with credible sources support your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First thin China will build parallel to / after 054A is additional 052Cs. We've not seen anything beyond these 2 types (054A and 052C).



first and foremost there been nothing but rumours of Type 054B, so again as i said before this is mere specualtion which i will not engage in , we can sit and talk all day 

secondly PLAN has 4 Type 052C under construction at JN with another 4 in preparation, the 2nd batch of 4 are said to be either more Type052C or even the 052D versions which will be delivered by 2015, and with this ends the current production of Type054As and Type052C/D to with Varyag 

after this a new FFG and DDG will take place to go with new indigenous chinese carrier

people like to make baseless claims lets go on whats actually happening and confirmed with credible sources i.e pictures


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## oct605032048

Penguin said:


> THere is no such thing, afaik. Please enhance your post with credible sources support your claim.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------
> 
> 
> First thin China will build parallel to / after 054A is additional 052Cs. We've not seen anything beyond these 2 types (054A and 052C).



You'll see Type 056 coming out of shipyards one after another, which is a light frigate to replace old 037.

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## regular

oct605032048 said:


> You'll see Type 056 coming out of shipyards one after another, which is a light frigate to replace old 037.


Nice to hear that. I guess we need to induct some of them too if they are more handy....to take care of Indians as well as our white masters....


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## oct605032048

aziqbal said:


> current production run for the first 18 Type054A will run until 2015, only after that will they start on Type054B, either way its going to be 5+ years before anything in that class becomes avaible


 
I just can't believe how time flies. Right now it's 2012 and there are already 15 054A launched. I doubt it's gonna take 2015 to pump out the 18th.


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