# China’s Submarine Fleet, Evolution & news



## Manticore

*A short chronological introduction* 



To trace the developments of China’s submarines fleet we first have to trace the history of Russian submarines. This is another area where Russia has been so ideologically bound up with ‘socialism’ in the past that it has compromised its present day security by blindly sharing/selling its technology.

Pictured above is a _Whiskey_ class Soviet submarine, designed in the mid 1940s and built between 1940 and 1958. This particular vessel (Sub P112) was sold recently (2011) for US $ 550,000. This article covers only conventional diesel-electric boats.

*Early Years*

Pre-war Russian submarines spanned vessels varying in displacement from those of a little over 200 tons to over 1,000 tons. Evidence exists to suggest that the Soviet Union and Germany were as early as the Weimar Republic (banned under the Versailles Treaty) co-operating on submarine design and construction.

Between 1929 and 1945 Russia had approx. 270 submarines, most were designed for the Baltic and coastal waters (see Table below).



Thus China’s submarine fleet only began in 1954 with the gift of Soviet vessels. However, before then Russiawas to enjoy a technological boost in 1945 with the surrender of Germanyand the articles in the _Potsdam Agreement_ that gave it access to German technology on land, sea and air.





A single Type XXIII _U-Boat_ was allocated to the Soviet Union under the terms of the Agreement but Russia was well placed to salvage other _U-Boats_from Baltic and Eastern Europe countries overrun by the _Red Army_.

*Left:* Type XXI U-boat (U-2540) sometime after 1945.

Of particular interest to Britain and America and therefore to Russia were the Walter designed U-boats – the Type XXIII and Type XXI known as the _Elektroboot_ _U-boats_ – with their streamlining, higher underwater speeds and long range. Type XXIII and Type XXI were futuristic and even today it would not be unresonable to believe that these craft could have been built 10 or 15 years ago. By enlarging this image (_click on picture_) it is fascinating to think that these clean and attractive lines were first propounded over 70 years ago.

The latter, Type XXI, could travel submerged for two or three days before recharging batteries (a 5 hours process using a Snorkel). There are more details of U-boat variants can be found at Appendix A below.

*Post 1945*

At the end of World War II, the Soviets obtained several Type XXIs, from which they were able to obtain certain key technologies. These technologies assisted in the design of the _Zulu_class and _Whiskey_ class (NATO codes). Further improvements on the design led to the _Romeo_ class.

The Type XXI and XXIII U-boats revolutionised Russian post-war submarine design. The Type XXI _U-boat _was almost as fast submerged (13 knots) as it was on the surface (15 knots) and some_U-boats _designs using the Walther _hydrogen peroxide_ system (an unstable gas), were actually faster submerged than on the surface (15 knots vs 17 knots).



The _Romeo_ class of Soviet diesel-electric submarine (Project 633) can trace its origins and streamlining to the World War II _Elektroboot_ and to the Walter designs (as indeed, can the streamlined _USS Nautilus_, SSN-571).

*Right:* _Romeo_ class Soviet Sub and Chinese Type 033

Russia produced 133 _Romeo _class conventional _attack_ submarines – 29 are still in use but not operationally. ‘Attack submarines’ are designed and deployed to sink other submarines and not merely to target surface ships (_eavesdropping_ is another of their other roles).

Nations that also took delivery of this 1,800 ton class were former Warsaw Pact members and several Middle Eastern countries, e.g. Iran, Syria, Egypt, and Algeria. Approx. 75 of these 1,830 ton Soviet-built subs have been scrapped.

The bulbous nose (bow) seen on the _Romeo _class pictured above housed the Soviet built _Hercules_ or _Tamir-5_ high-frequency sonar for active / passive search and attack. Later variants are also fitted with _Sintra DUUX 5,_ a low frequency sonar for passive ranging and intercept. Yet later variants were reported to have had weapon systems removed to accommodate surveillance and electronic intelligence (ELINT) equipment for special reconnaissance missions. [1]

*Nuclear Option*

Following the 1954 gifts from Russia, Chairman Mao visited Jiangnan shipyard (i.e. Shanghai) in Jan 1956 where the PRC’s very first submarine was being built from a Soviet kit. China would eventually go on to build 21 of these Soviet _“Whiskey” _class boats which were the predecessors of the _Romeo_ class.

*

Left:* Soviet_“Whiskey” _class

Soviet _“Whiskey”_class submarine displaced 1,350 tons submerged, had a range 13,500 nautical miles and so were ideal for the vast distances of the Pacifice. Between 1949 and 1958 a total of 236 _Whiskey_class submarine were built incorporating many variants, e.g. Mark 1 to Mark V. It was succeeded by the _Romeo_ class with a similar range, i.e. 13,500 naut. miles.

The _Whiskey_ class and _Romeo_ class must be seen as the transitional designs – the stop gaps – from World War II technology to the demands made by the Cold War of a nuclear missile strike capability.

It is remarkable to read, in Chinese sourced military and political journals in the late 1950s (and from US / CIA sources), of the apparent interest in nuclear powered ships especially submarines atthis early stage. This can only be a reflection of the progress made by the US Navy (_USS Nautilus_, SSN-571), and the ambitions of theUSSR.

The suspicion is thatthe first fully submerged circumnavigation of the globe by the atomic powered submarine _USS Triton,_ in May 1960, made have riveted attention to the potential that nuclear propulsion held. (_USS Triton_ maintained a steady submerged speed of 21 knots for nearly three months).

The _party line_ in China appears to be that nuclear propulsion for submarines was adopted as a national priority by Mao himself. This may be true but Mao as a visionary and still a strategist in all things at the age of 63 is stretching credibility (Mao was born in 1893). Two years later, in 1958, an ailing Mao announced the “_Great Leap Forward_”, anattempt to increase agricultural and industrial production by Stalinist ‘_collectives_’ but which failed hopelessly and resulted in famines.

Shortly afterwards Mao retired from the post of _Chairman_ of the People’s Republic of China and was replaced as head of state by Liu Shaoqi – though Mao continued to wield political influence e.g. sponsoring the _Cultural Revolution_.

*Ego clash*

China’s long march towards naval self-sufficiency and her longer term aim of greater parity with the navies of the West halted when Mao metaphorically burnt China’s bridges with Russiain the _Sino-Soviet split_. Mao became openly critical of Nikita Khrushchev’s interpretation of the direction of world communism and how socialism should develop in theUSSR.

Personality and the _cult of personality_ was the Achilles heel of China. From the 1960s to the late 1970s China was held back first by the nihilistic behaviour of the _Red Guard_ and then the destruction influence of the ‘_Gang of Four’_ (circa 1973). Only with the death of Mao (1976) did China gradually return to some semblance of a normal state. [2]

While all this was going on Chinabegan producing Soviet-designed_Romeo_ class submarines in significant quantities between 1965 and the early 1980s. Eventually the PLAN had more than 60 of these boats in service. It has been estimated that more than 100 the Type 033 were built by the PLAN and some exported.

NATO’s codename of _Romeo_ class diesel-electronic submarine was known to the Russia’s as Project 633. They were armed with conventional torpedoes and the transfer of technology to China began in Feb 1959.

Project 629 submarines, known to NATO as _Golf _class were diesel-electric powered submarine but carried missiles. [3] The illustration below shows the missiles were housed in the conning towr (referred to in american literatire as the ‘sail’), part of the boat

The two submarine types were to be built in Chinaas _Type 6633_(later known as 

Type 033) and Type 6631 (later known as Type 031) respectively.

*Left:* Golf class

To clarify – Type 033 is the Chinese designation and carried torpedoes and Type 031 carried both torpedoes and missiles (Type 6622 / Chinese 033 = _Romeo_ class and 6631 = _Golf _class, respectively).

Note too how submariens of this era still retained the bow indicating much of their operatinal time could be expected to be spent on the surface. With the advent of nuclear power the beed for a surface ship bow disappears.

Defence source point to Chinese 033 as enhanced _Romeo_ class insofar as the 033 had better sonar and a longer range. Both the 033 and 031 projects 

suffered from the _Sino-Soviet split_ in as much that although China managed to launch its fist_Romeo_ type sub in 1965 it was not serviceable until 1970.

*Left:* Artist impression of a _Golf_ class firing a missile

In terms of an offensive platform it is regarded as a ‘noisy’ vessel, of an ageing design, incapable of operating safely in deep water, e.g. Pacific and suitable only for coastal defence and patrol duties. By the end of the 1990s chain has decommissioned all the craft although 4 were sold to North Korea.

The original plan was for the production yards to use Soviet-supplied kits initially, and then gradually increase the indigenous elements untilChinacould build the submarines independently.

*Developments in the 1970s*
In the 1970s, approximately 20% of China’s defence budget was allocated to naval forces resulting in a dramatic growth in the Navy. The conventional submarine force increased from 35 to 100 boats, but the longer term ambition was still one of a submarine powered by nuclear technology.

The true extent of how daunting this challenge represented only became fully clear to the Chinese when Moscow refused Peking’s specific request to share nuclear propulsion technology. The rejection was made on the grounds that it would be ‘premature’ for the PLAN. A valid point consideringChina’s lack of experience with underwater craft and the deadly accidents caused by bad luck and casualness.​

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
7


----------



## Manticore

Notwithstanding this, the rejection was taken as an affront and foreshadowed the imminent souring of Sino-Soviet relations. [4] The 20th century should be remembered (among other things) for the homicidal, sociopathic political leaders it managed to produce. Mao was no different to many others and he “reacted indignantly” to Russia’s refusal saying:


“We will have to build nuclear submarines even if it takes us 10,000 years.”
Mao got his way, and a famine-ridden, near-bankrupt country – forced to import grain from Canada and the West – embarked in July 1958 on a voyage into the unknown and the unknowable. Mao got the _Politbur_o to approve an ambitious plan to develop not only SSN submarines, i.e. nuclear-poweredattack submarines, but simultaneously an SLBM system (submarine-launched ballistic missile).

Of the two developments the SLBM is the most threatening because of its capacity to deliver a ‘stand-off’ nuclear warhead launched from a submarine hidden in the oceans.

That said, the danger is less acute today then in Mao’s day. Comparatively speaking, he was a _lose cannon_ (in the same way as the behaviour of North Korea’s leader is today viewed as dangerous). He was quite prepared to kill hundred of millions of his own citizens in an ideological ‘nuclear exchange’ (war) with the US and Russia. If it meant the end of the US and capitalism the price of self-destruction was , in his mind, worth it.

*Era of Growth*

The 1970s and 1980s saw China build up its _Romeo_ and _Ming_ class submarine fleet. The _Ming_ class (or Type 035), was first commissioned in 1974, and was based on the _Romeo _class _(_akaType 033_)._

To illustrate how one class has superseded another, the Table below traces operational types since 1990. The _Ming_ and _Romeo_class, once the most numerous had by 2009 been overtaken by the_Song_ class at 19 boats. 



At least 17 _Ming_ classhulls (2,113 tons) are still in service, with the latest versions

adopting modern sonar systems purchased from the French (see DUUX-5). The latest _Ming_ class hulls are also thought to have tested out AIP (Air Independent Propulsion).

AIP is a generic tem for closed loop engines. It is a term that encompasses technologies such as oxygen substitution or _Stirling Engine_, which allows a submarine to operate without the need to surface or use a snorkel to accessatmospheric oxygen. These technologies significantly reduce the noise 

level of the submarine and thus their rate of detection.

*Right:* _Ming _Class (Type 035 B)

_Ming _class submarines have reportedly been exercising more frequently and making recent incursions into Japanese waters. 

There are at least four known variants of the Type 035 built between 1969 and 1979. The early variants were said to be trouble-prone and were retired in the 1980s. However, production resumed in 1987 with the improved Type 035G and a total of 12 boats built between 1988 and 1995.

The production line used for the Type 035 was re-opened due to the delay in the development of the new-generation Type 039 (to be known as the _Song _class). An additional 6 boats were built between 1997 and 2001.

On one occasion a _Ming_ surfaced briefly within Japanese waters before submerging again and another – an enhanced _Ming_ class, designed_ Song_ class – surfaced briefly near the _USS_ _Kitty Hawk_when she was on manoeuvres.

In 2003, a _Ming_ class (No. 361) was lost with all hands. It was speculated that 361 was testing an AIP system, and that a failure caused the near-instantaneous death of the all crewmembers (as they were found dead in their quarters with the submarine intact). But it is one theory among several.

_Ming _class submarines have an ‘_acoustic signature’_ in the higher reaches which makes them an easy target for modern antisubmarine warfare (ASW) systems. Today (2011) it is better suited to coastal defence, regional patrolling and surveillance duties. Combat missions and deep ocean patrols are better suited to the more capable Type 039 (_Song_ class) and _Kilo _class.

Notwithstanding these grave shortcomings the advances made in weapons systems, as we shall see below, have breath new life in whatwould be obsolete craft.

*Modern Age*

The _Kilo_ class represented a huge leap forward in the PLAN submarine fleet. In the 1980s the _Kilo_ was acknowledged to be one of the world’s quietest class of submarines and NATO’s rating reflected this. China’s first _Kilo_ class was operational in 1982.

In 2002, a $2 billion deal was signed for eight more _Kilo_ 636 submarines these were fitted with the capability of launching the Russian made _Novator_ 3M-54E Klub S (a cruise-type missile) capable of engaging land and sea targets at 220 km. By 2006 China had 12 _Kilos_ operational.

Despite the purchase of the _Kilos_, the PLAN has continued to develop indigenous designs. The_ Song_ class (_Type 039)_ is another conventional diesel-electric submarine which was first launched in 1994 with sea trials in 1995 and operational in 1999.

It is the first Chinese submarine to use the modern teardrop hull shape – a design said by some to have first been used byBritainin the R-class hunter-

killer submarines designed in 1917.

*Left:* _Song_ class (039)

The _Song_ class, at 2,500 tons, is said to represent a major milestone to indigenous submarine designs, being comparable in its capabilities to contemporary Western built submarines. Note the loss of any bow profile on this generation of boat.

First commissioned in 1998 it featured Western influences with a German propulsion system, in the shape of a seven bladed ‘skewed’ propeller and noise-reduction rubber tiles. _Song_submarines are armed with torpedoes and a sub-launched variant of the YJ-8 anti-ship missile. Earlier Russian and Chinese submarines had to surface in order to launch missiles.

Visually the _Song_ class looks very much like a _Kilo_ class submarine which also features the _water-drop_ (teardrop) shape, a double hull with a T-shape stern rudder and a single large shaft.

_Kilo_ class submarines have a pair of bow planes located close to the midship on the upper hull in front of the sail. With a reserve buoyancy of 32%, the submarines consists of six watertight compartments separated by transverse bulkhead in a pressured double hull, which increases the survivability of the 

submarine, even with one compartment and adjacent ballast tanks flooded.

*Left:* _Kilo_ class (3,950 tons submerged)

The command and control and fire-control systems are located in the main control room which is sealed off from other compartments.

The rational is forChinato build a modernised underwater force thatis capable of supporting its military actions againstTaiwanand to deter any unwelcomed intervention, i.e. by the U.S. Navy.

Of the 49 _Kilo_ class subs ever built over 40 are still in service. and 17 of the approx. 3,000 ton vessel are thought still to be operated by Russia. _Kilo_ class have “Pump Jet Propulsion” to help overcome_cavitation _(a problem first faced by high-speed propeller aircraft like the _Typhoon_ in WWII).

The _Kilo _class is being succeeded by the _Lada_ class (2,700 t) submerged; which began sea trials in 2005. This latest diesel electric offering small size and low noise with powerful torpedo and missile armament and the use of hydrogen-oxygen fuel cells generating electricity. The hull, as have other Soviet designed craft, is covered with rubber anti-sonar protection tiles to reduced the risk of detection.

The _Kilo_ class can be fitted with a launcher for eight Strela-3 (NATO codename: SA-N-8 _Gremlin_) surface-to-air missiles, but those in service with the PLA Navy are not equipped with this system.

The eight newer _Project 636M_ submarines are equipped with the_Klub-S_ missile complex, which can fire the Novator 3M-54E anti-ship cruise missile. The missile has a maximum range of 220 km and a 450 kg high-explosive warhead.

Type 041, known by the NATO code as the _Yuan_ class is expected to adapt an AIP system to achieve maximum quietness in operational mode.

The _Yuan_ could be armed with advanced Russian and/or Chinese made torpedoes and cruise missiles.

This class of SSK (hunter killer sub) is an improved _Song _class and is expected 

to have capabilities which surpass the _Kilo_ and_Song _class SSK currently being operated by the PLAN.

*Right:* _Yuan_ class

Series production of the _Yuan_ class began late in 2007, with at least two boats identified so far. The _Yuan _came as a surprise to US military intelligence, as the submarine’s existence was entirely unknown until internet images emerged.

The last of the conventionally powered boatto be mentioned before moving on to submarines using nuclear propulsion is the new Russian _Lada_ class.​

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
3


----------



## Manticore

*​Left:* _Lada_ class in dry dock
To date China has not asked or taken delivery of this new type. Only one is thought to be operational and so new is it thatnone have been exported although an export model is available. The ‘export’ model is known to the Russians as the_ Amur_class submarine. It comes in a variety of displacements from 700 tons to 2,600 tons.
Essentially the _Lada_ class is a highly improved version of the earlier _Kilo_ class and externally looks very similar. In comparison to double-hulled _Kilo_ class, surface displacement has been reduced by 1.3 times – from 2,300 down to 1,765 tons. The submerged speed has been increased from 19 to 21 knots.
​Submarines of Russia’s Project 677 (NATO code _Lada_) appear to be a series of Russian diesel electric subs developed in 1997.
*Right:* Lada class​Launched in Oct 2004, sea trials began in Nov 2005 and by April 2010 the submarine was reported to have finished its testing. Another three _Lada_ class submarines are believed to be under construction.
There are plans to launch between four and six of them by 2015 and ultimately the Russian Navy plans to have a total of eight _Lada_class submarines in the near future.
The _Lada_ class boat is designed for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare, defense of naval bases, seashore and sea lanes, as well as for conducting reconnaissance. It boasts the latest generation of Russian missile, torpedoes and sonar systems.

_*Political Intrigue ?*_​Russia sells warships and exports military hardware as regularly and as casually as Germany exports Mercedes Benz and BMW cars. The _Amur_ class submarine is a case in point. There is a size and price to suit every pocket. Third world countries – as they used to be known – can now indulge in a little _sabre rattling _with their neighbours (Pakistan) or even with the accepted _muscle on the block, _i.e. the US.
For all its moral protesting at the role of NATO in Libya, it is Russan made AK47s, RPG s, rocket launchers, artillery pieces and tanks that are being used in large numbers by the rebels against the former corrrupt government of Kaddafi.
India is a case in point. India “leased” a Russia _Charlie_ class nuclear powered missile armed submarine in 1988 for 3 years (fee undisclosed). India paid US$ 2 billion for the completion of two 12,000 ton _Akula_ class submarines which ​were 40 – 60% completed.
*Left:*_ Akula_ class nuclear powered
But whereas Russia’s _Akula_class could be equipped with 28 nuclear-capable cruise missiles with a strike range of 1,620 naut. miles, the Indian version was reportedly armed with the 162 naut mile range _3M-65 Klub_nuclear-capable missiles.
In parallel with China’s path to increased military might Indiahas cultivated a home grown design and builds capability for nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines. The product of this, the 6,000 ton _Arihan_t class is expected to be commissioned starting in 2012 (_INS Arihant_ was launched in July 2009).
All around the Indian Ocean and stretching into the Pacific from Iran to Malaysia and on to Haiwai, nations are acquiring lethal technology from the USA, China or Russia. Of itself this can be said to be normal but whereas prior to 1945 one could assume that the barrels of most country’s guns would point in unison the same cannot be said today.
At another level the intrigue gets more interesting. Russian and Italy has signed a partnership agreement to build the _S1000_ class submarine. Externally ​this looks similar to the _Lada_ and_Amur_ class submarines. In the last few weeksItaly has surprisingly negotiated with China for the financing of its billion Euro national debt. Will Russia or will Italy supply China with is next generation submarine ?
*Righr:* _S1000_ class​One would expect the sale to be made by Russia but could the Italians be seduced by an overture and perhaps include some Western sonar technology ?
The existing illustrations of the _S1000 _class appear to give it a conventional north south crucifix rudder assembly but on others it is shown turned 45 degrees to give an ‘X’ configuration.
_*Submarines China did not get*_​​_Zulu_ class submarines (left) were the Soviet Union’s first post-war attack submarines. At 2,387 tons they were a contempaory of _Whiskey_ class andUS ‘GUPPY’. They were as capable as the American GUPPY fleet-boat conversions (see feature below).
_Zulu_ class boats had a ‘step’ at the top leading edge of the conning tower. Later Romeo tyoes had an inward step at the foot of the leading edge of the conning tower (see _Romeo_ above). _Zulu_ class boats shared a similar sonar arrangement as the _Whiskey_ class and both were heavily influenced by the German _Type XXI_ U-boat of the World War II era. In all 26 boats were built overall entering service from 1952 to 1957
Unfortunately, _Zulu_ class vessels suffered from structural weaknesses and ​harmonic vibration problems that limited their operational depth and submerged speed. It was replaced by the _Foxtrot_ class (2,475 long tons )
*Right:* Foxtrot class​This was designed to the earlier built between 1957 and 1983 and thought its hul was better its three propellor design made it ‘noisier’ than other designs.​The _Foxtrot_ class was one of the last conventional designs before the adoption of the teardrop shaped hull.
Characteristic of almost all Soviet boats built since 1945 are the windows in the conning outlined in white paint thatappear half way up the conning tower (US = sail).
*Left:* _Foxtrot _class at sea
The next Soviet submarine, chronologically, was the _Tango_ class (3,800 tons submerged) of which 18 were operational from 1972 (the last one was retired in 2010).
_​Tango_ class had far more battery capacity, far higher than previous conventional Russian submarine classes.
*Right:* _Tango_ class​Designed to ambush and attack Western nuclear powered submarines at shipping ‘choke points’, e.g _Gibraltar, Suez_,_Skagerrak_ and _Kattegat_, it has suitable sonar equipment and because all of its hull was rubber coated it was nicknamed “rezinka” (rubber).
_*China lacks sincerity*_​Peking always insists its military modernisation poses no threat to anyone. Yet it denies and prevents Taiwan the right to modernise and enlarge its naval and air forces.
If Peking were sincere in it friendship to its nairghbours it should raise no objection – in the same way that Britain does not object to France building submairnes and aircraft carriers. Taiwan and China are separated by 90 miles of water yet Britain and France are separated by only 22 miles of water.
The US defence budget has been – and remains – the biggest in the world at around $700 billion pa, but in the current economic climate for how much longer ?
China’s defence budget is the second largest and the rate of increase may well go up this year. China and Russia appear, so far, to be insulated from the global monetary upheavals and banking turmoil.
There have been three major modern wars in other parts of the world which have have hardened the resolve of China’s armed service leaders to catch up militarily.
The Taiwanese Navy currently operates four submarines; two are the _Hai Lung_ class submarine – the _Hai Lung_ (Sea Dragon) 793 and _Hai Hu_ (Sea Tiger) 794. They were acquired from Holland and commissioned in 1987 and 1988 respectively. Two former U.S. Navy Guppy II-class vessels which were delivered in 1973 – the_Hai Shih_ and _Hai Bao_ – are also still in service, but only for training purposes. All 4 of Taiwan’s submarines operate out of Tsoying Naval Base in Kaohsiung. Taiwan is interested in acquiring additional vessels but has been unsuccessful as a result of the political pressure (black listing, orders cancelled, etc) put on potential exporters by mainland China.[5]
Taiwan’s submarines are aimed at providing a capability to deter Chinese naval blockades and to ensure that its sea lanes remain open, thus protecting the trade on which the island depends. In addition, Taiwan’s submarines could be used to block Chinese ports but are unlikely to be capable of countering Beijing’s superior submarine fleet.
Since the acquisition of the two Dutch made “_Hai Lung_” vessels commissioned in 1987, Taiwan’s Ministry of National Defense has been unsuccessfully exploring ways to procure new diesel submarines. [6] 
In April 2001, the George W. Bush administration offered Taiwana substantial arms package which included eight diesel-electric submarines. However, the United Stateshas not produced diesel versions since the 1950s. [7]
_*‘Special requirements’*_​In an article recently published in a Chinese Communist Party publication, General Jiang Luming, head of the military economics unit at China’s National Defence University, called for “_maximising national interest_” by doubling China’s military funding to 2.8% of GDP, which he said was the average of 132 countries since the end of the Cold War.
He said this was needed to meet “*special security requirements*” – an apparent reference to preparing for eventual re-unification with Taiwan, safeguarding key interests overseas and off-shore, and China’s position as a post-socialist country flirting with capiltalsim but without any military allies in the region.
That deficit is presently being actively addressed. Since May 2008 a series of visits between the Russian and Chinese heads of state and senior ministers have taken place. In the West this might be seen as just a necessary courtesy but the Chinese mindset places greater store on the meaning of words, sentience and overt act of “friendship”, e.g. state visits.
Russia’s President Medvedev flew to China in Sept 2010 for a ceremony marking the completion of an oil pipeline thatwill transport Russian oil directly intoChina.
China’s realises that its economic growth will make it dependant on Russian oil should its sea-lane supplies be put under threat. Chinese leaders are therefore expected to focus heavily on energy, including a potential gas-supply deal and a $5 billion joint-venture oil refinery in China’s eastern city of Tianjin.
Russia’s Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin (and President designate), visited Peking (Beijing) in Oct 2011 signing trade agreements and coming understandings about the future balance in economic matters.
*Red Shift Eastwards*
A “Red Shift” is unmistakable as global military and political power moves ever Eastwards. For the present day and into the future Russia and China are the new “heavyweights” in currency markets, sovereign debt, trade, and political dominance. They represent an Eastern axis in which might be difficult to counter. Russia’s only lament is that its ‘normal’ trade with China, excluding military contracts, is 2% compared with China’s trade with the US.
A sign of this increasing political dominance came in August this year (2011) when the reclusive North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong Il, travelled not to the Kremlin but to Siberia (Russia’s Far East) to meet with President Dmitry Medvedev. It was Kim’s first trip to Russia in 9 years and a further sign of Pyongyang’s increasing efforts to reach out for economic assistance and diplomatic support.
With North Korea’s economy in dire straits North Korea is seeking to improve its trade relations with its neighbours, i.e. China and Russia. North Korea will probably want to talk about a _Gazprom_pipeline through its territory into South Korea (Gazprom has the monopoly of all Russian gas). North Korea could earn between $500 million and a $1 billon in transit fees if it allowed the pipeline to go ahead. A pipeline that would bring in both revenue and fuel to North Korea’s gutted economy is a 20 year old dream for Pyongyang.
However, Russia is not overly eager given Pyongyang’s history of aberrant and _brinkmanship_ behaviour which could sour relations between Russia and South Korea, its ultimate customer. Russia will also want to know the true intentions of Pyongyang’s nuclear programme and might use energy and food shortages in North Koreaas a bargaining lever.
In the alternative – though this option is doubtful -Russia might consider, should North Korea behave in a dependable way, to lease a port or port facilities in waters free of ice (a newPort Arthur).
How this will go down with the Chinese in what they see as their exclusive territorial waters is problematical. As always, North Koreawill be forced to balance its foreign relationships and avoid causing offence to either Russia or China or both.
*END*
*Appendix A*
*U-Boat developments (1939- 1945)*
*See http://rwhiston.wordpress.com/2011/10/17/11/*​It is difficult to believe at this point in history that German navy, under Karl Donitz, began World War II with only 5 operational U-boats in the Atlantic. In part this is due to the more overwhelming fact that during the war the _Kreigmarine_ took delivery of over 1,500 boats – mostly in the early and middle war years.
In tandem with the know-how of building U-boats at an ever-increasing rate, the _Third Reich_ engineers pioneered radical concepts in engines and hull design. For instance, by 1944 it was possible despite air raids for U-3017, a Type XXI, to have its keel laid down on Sept 2nd 1944 and to be completed and launched a few months later on Nov 5th 1944. By 1942 German engineers had devised ways of doubling the underwater speed of a U-boat to over 10 knots.
U-3017 was ccommissioned on Jan 5th 1945 and used as a training vessel in Norway. She was handed over to the Royal Navy in full working order in May 1945.
Fortunately for the outcome of the _Battle of the Atlantic_, many of these designs did not come to fruition for a variety reasons; some proved impractical; some fell victim to internal squabbles; and some for external reasons, e.g. limited funding / materials by 1943. Towards the end of the war some German shipyards in both the East and West had to be abandoned to the approaching Allied forces.
The following list is a Table of U-boats projects that were designed and sometimes tested but never completed or put into production. 
​
*Appendix B*​
*Cloak and dagger*​The noble cause of defending democracy anmd saving the world from tyranny was quickly forgotten after May 1945 and the utterly abandoned as the squabble for the spoils began. The scene must have been reminiscent of the Carpet Baggers pillaging the Southern States after the American civil war.
“_The Cuningham Papers_” give us an insight into the brutal duplicity required and the newly emergent fear of having to deal with “_the_ _Russkies.” _Admiralty Directive dated 13 August 1945 to Vice Admiral Geoffrey Miles and Rear Admiral William Parry, the British Representatives on the Tripartite Naval Commission, made it very clear that the Russians were to be denied access to the Walterwerke in Kiel – the very factory where Dr Helmut Walter researched and developed a whole series of new and advanced technologies related to the use of _gas turbines_ for military purposes.
Both the British and American authorities were determined that such technology should not fall into Russian hands. The _Postdam Agreement_ had been signed but sincerity and trust is obviously absent even in this short quote: [8]

 “ . . . In particular, the Russians are not in any circumstances to be allowed access to the research laboratory, establishments or equipment of the Walterwerke.”
_ “ . . . . The disposal of the latest types of U-Boat, fitted with hydrogen peroxide propulsion units, presents a problem of special importance and some difficulty. The most valuable boats are U-1406 and U-1407, which are fitted with the unit type 18X, and are capable of being completed within a reasonably short time. In addition, there are four badly damaged boats fitted with a smaller unit, type 17, namely U-792, U-793, U-794 and U-795.” _
 ” . . . It is desired to exclude the Russians from acquiring any of these special types of U-Boat. The Russians are, however, almost certainly aware of the existence of one or both types, and have a right under the [Potsdam] Protocol to inspect the boats. The exercise of this right, if a request is made, should be permitted, but inspection should be confined to the boats themselves and restricted to the minimum. You should report immediately any enquiries made by the Russians concerning these types [of U-Boat], and pending further instructions your case should be:

to maintain that U-1406 and U-1407 are the only boats of this type available for disposal within [the] Protocol.
to insist in concert with your USA colleague, that U-1406 and U-1407 are to be allocated to the USA and UK respectively.
The refusal of any of the U-792 to U-795 class to the Russians may be a delicate matter, but has great importance, since the acquisition of one of these boats might lead the Russians to put forward a claim under . . . . the Protocol to examine and take equipment in the Walterwerke establishments for the purpose of providing spares for the U-Boats to be delivered to them. Further consideration is being given to the question of the disposal of these special types of U-Boat and establishments in relation to the Russians. Meanwhile, you should, if possible, avoid discussing the subject with the Russians.”
There is no doubt that the Americans and British were determined to deny the latest German submarine technology to the Russians if at all possible – while exploiting it for themsleves.
In practical terms the Russians had captured a considerable number of unfinished Type XXI U-Boats in the shipyards in Danzig, and because they had also gained access to the plans for, and a full-scale model of, the HTP-powered _Type XXVI_ U-Boat _[U-4501 through to U-4600], _which would have been a larger and longer-range version of the Type XVIIB U-Boat.
*Post Script*
Three intact Type XVIIB U-Boats (_U-1405 to U-1407_) fell within the British Sector after May 1945 with 2 or 3 more, U-1408 to U-1410 partially fininished. _These U-boats were powered by the fabled HTP [high test peroxide] system. ​_ Unfortunately,_ U-1405 to U-1407 _had been scuttled by their crew following the German collapse at the end of the Second World War.
*Right:* U-boat, _U-1406_, a Type XVIIB allocated to US being dismantled after World War II​_ U-1407,_which was allocated to Britain, was raised and salvaged in June 1945 and together with its inventor Prof. Hellmuth Walter, transported to Barrow-in-Furness. There Vickers under the supervision of Prof. Walter, fitted her with a new and complete set of machinery (also captured in Germany). She was re-commissioned in the Royal Navy as _HMS Meteorite._
Later_HMS Explorer and HMS Excalibur _entered RN service as experimantal HTP powered craft

China’s Submarine Fleet | Robert Whiston's Weblog

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
5


----------



## Manticore

Chinese Shipbuilder CSOC unveiled new Frigate, LHD and Submarine designs at IDEX 2013

Beijing based China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co. (CSOC) unveiled several new designs during IDEX 2013, the international defense exhibition held in the United Arab Emirates. Navyrecognition took the opportunity to get some details about these new designs during the event, including a new LHD design, the S20 submarine and a new stealth frigate design.
Chinese Shipbuilder CSOC unveiled new Frigate, LHD and Submarine designs at IDEX 2013







*
CSOC New LHD*

The sign next to the model might have said "LPD", the model showcased on CSOC's stand at IDEX really was an LHD (Landing Helicopter Dock).

Reported specifications (length of 198 meters, displacement of 22,000 tons, breadth of 21.80 meters, and maximum speed of 22 Knots) appear to be close to those of a Mistral class LHD for example.

A CSOC representative at the show insisted the design was for the export market exclusively. After inquiring about the design's projection capabilities the same representative told us the LHD had 4 helicopter spots and could carry 8 more internally inside the hangar. Regarding troops accommodations, we were told the design could accommodate in excess of 700 soldiers and over 50 armored vehicles. The CSOC representative confirmed the presence of a well-deck for amphibious operations but declined to comment on it capacities or specifications.

Looking at the model's details, we can guess that CSOC's LHD design is fitted with two naval gun mounts at the bow (each carrying their own Optical Fire Control), two FL-3000N (with 18 cells/missiles each) missile systems at the stern and two Type 730 (or the newer Type 1130) 30mm Gatling type CIWS located forward and aft on the island of the LHD.


*
CSOC S20 SSK Submarine*

CSOC was also showcasing a new submarine on its stand at IDEX: The S20. 

The CSOC representative gave us the following specifications for this new submarine:
Length: 66 meters
Breadth: 8 meters
Maximum Draft: 8 meters
Displacement (submerged): 2,200 tons
Maximum speed: about 20 Knots
Crew: 40

The person declined to disclose the maximum depth and endurance of the S20. We were told the weapons fit may varry according to customer requirements but the S20 may accommodate heavy torpedoes and anti-ship missiles from six torpedo tubes and deploy mines and special forces. It may also be fitted with AIP (air-independent propulsion) system if a customer requires.

Finally the CSOC representative declined to comment any similarities of the S20 with the existing Type 041 (Yuan class) submarine currently in service with the Chinese Navy.






*
CSOC Stealth Frigate*

The new "High Performance Frigate" (we were told there was currently no existing project name or designation for this type of frigate) showcased next to the LHD and S20 submarine at IDEX featured a relatively stealthy designed we have never seen before. 

Reported specifications of the Frigate are as follow:
Length: 135 meters
Breadth: 15.3 meters
Displacement: 3,500 tons
Maximum speed: 28 Knots

We were told crew complement would be around 110 sailors. The type is fitted with 32 VLS cells at the stern, a H/PJ-26 main gun (Chinese version of the Russian AK-176 76.2mm naval gun), two H/PJ-13 CIWS (Chinese version of the Russian AK-630), two manned machine gun mounts on top of the main bridge, eight anti-ship missile launchers and one FL-3000N missile system on top of the helicopter hangar. 

We could not get any information regarding anti-submarine capabilities or the sensor suite fitted on this Frigate. We were just told that "it depends on the customer needs".



Chinese Shipbuilder CSOC unveiled new Frigate, LHD and Submarine designs

QING class

















Jin class (Type 094)







Type-095 and Type-096 
China Arsenal

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
7


----------



## Manticore

improved Yuan class Type 039B?







Manticore said:


> Type 094-II
> 
> 
> 
> 
> improved Yuan class (Type 039B?) / "Qing" class?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S&#333;ry&#363; class



Modern Submarine Designs


----------



## Manticore

PLA Type 092 





PLA Type 091





PLA Type 039A






PLA Type 039G 'Song Class'






PLA 039G





PLA Kilo-class Submarine





PRC Type 039





This undated picture shows a nuclear-powered submarine of the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s North Sea Fleet preparing to dive into the sea.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Manticore

*China’s Nuclear Submarines Are Less Than Advertised*
By Joshua Philipp, Epoch Times | November 20, 2013
Last Updated: November 20, 2013 12:03 am
Feedback



A Chinese Navy submarine on April 23, 2009, off Qingdao in China's Shandong Province. Recently, the Chinese state-run media have boasted of the ability of China's submarine fleet to target the United States with ballistic missiles. (Guang Niu/AFP/Getty Images)

Nuclear submarines have been a favorite tool of the Chinese regime’s state-run media recently when trumpeting China’s military strength or threatening the West. Yet, despite the noise China makes about its nuclear submarines, they’re not all they’re cracked up to be.

The U.S. Navy’s top admiral, Jonathan Greenert, was asked about a recent article in China’s state-run Global Times, which claimed China’s submarines could kill 5 million to 12 million Americans with nuclear missiles. Greenert pointed out several key flaws in China’s submarines.

“For a submarine-launched ballistic missile to be effective it has to be accurate, and you have to be stealthy, and survivable and I’ll leave it at that,” Greenert said, during the Nov. 16 Reagan National Defense Forum, The Washington Free Beacon reported.

The Global Times report included a map of the United States complete with targets for nuclear attacks on major cities including Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. The report followed a segment from China’s state-run CCTV News Network in late October that showed off China’s submarine fleet, in light of China’s territorial disputes in the South China Sea and East China Sea.

*Stealth*
Yet, Greenert’s comments are well grounded. China’s nuclear submarines have several technical flaws, limits caused by geography, and the deployment of its next-generation fleet has faced several setbacks. This is in addition to the fact that the United States has complex systems capable of monitoring submarines much more advanced than what China can produce.

China’s main nuclear-powered ballistic missile (SSBN) submarine is the Jin-class (Type 094). Three of them are currently operational, and China may have five more in service over the next decade, according to thePentagon’s 2013 annual report, “Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China.”

Despite being China’s most advanced submarines, the Jin-class subs are louder than Soviet submarines from 30 years ago, according to an August 2009 reportfrom U.S. Navy’s Office of Naval Intelligence.

Anti-submarine warfare is based heavily on a nation’s ability to detect and track submarines. The main system the United States uses to track submarines is the Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS), which is part of the Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (IUSS).

SOSUS consists of a large network of undersea sensors installed at choke points in the ocean. It allows the United States to detect submarines and track them based on their noise signatures. It was used during the Cold War to track Soviet SSBNs.

Stealth is one of the key benefits of a submarine force, and controlling noise level is key for achieving stealth. Reducing the level of noise is among the key reasons why submarines are moving from diesel power to nuclear power, and why modern fleets have other advanced technologies for noise dampening.

The majority of China’s submarine fleet is still diesel powered, most of the submarines were purchased from Russia in the 1990s and 2000s, according to the Pentagon report. It is estimated to have 49 diesel submarines and 5 nuclear submarines.

*Range*
The other problem with the Jin-class submarines is attack range—and this is affected both by technology and geography.

The Jin-class submarines will eventually be armed with China’s JL-2 submarine launched ballistic missile, according to the Pentagon report. The nuclear missiles have an estimated range of 4,600 miles, and are expected to reach operational capability this year.

If a Chinese Jin-class submarine were to target Seattle, it would have to sail deep into Japanese waters, according to a report by Hans Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists.

The report states, “Due to the apparent noise level of Chinese missile submarines and the extensive anti-submarine capabilities of the United States that would indeed be risky sailing in a war.”

The other option for the Chinese nuclear submarines would be to fire their missiles over Russia. The report notes, “All China’s ICBMs [inter-continental ballistic missiles] launched at the United States from their current deployment areas would overfly Russia.”

China’s nuclear submarines are confined to a small area around China, and the range of its nuclear missiles is limited. According to the report, if they were to even target Hawaii, the submarines would need to enter the Sea of Japan or the Philippine Sea.

It does state, however, that China’s nuclear-armed subs pose a threat to U.S. territories outside the continental United States, including Alaska and Guam. They are also a threat to U.S. warships in the region.

Keeping Chinese nuclear-submarines out of range from the continental United States relies on keeping them within China’s waters.
China’s Nuclear Submarines Are Less Than Advertised » The Epoch Times
China is also developing its next-generation SSBN, the Type-096, which according to a forthcoming report from the U.S.–China Economic and Security Review Commission is expected to “improve the range, mobility, stealth, and lethality” of China’s nuclear subs,Defense News reported.





by Dr. Lyle Goldstein and Bill Murray
The maritime balance of power in the East Asian littoral is undergoing slow, but steady change in Beijing’s favor. Numerous indicators, including the imminent sea-trials of the first of China’s 2nd-generation nuclear submarines, the first serial production of its indigenous _Song_-class diesel boats, and the ongoing purchase from Russia of eight “Kilo”-class diesel submarines, all confirm PRC progress in undersea warfare across a broad front.

Because of a centuries-long history of neglect, incompetence, and defeat at sea, there is a strong tendency in Washington to rate the Chinese as poor mariners. The recent accident and loss of all hands onboard a _Ming_-class submarine in April 2003 only serves to reinforce these stereotypes. However, besides obvious safety lapses, the incident also shows that the submarine force of the Peoples Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) is engaged in a vigorous program of realistic at-sea training, under battle-like conditions. Moreover, despite this recent mishap, the appointment of Admiral Zhang Dingfa – a nuclear-trained submariner – to head the PLAN suggests growing momentum in undersea warfare.

Indeed, it was the emerging “ASW problem that we have out there in the Western Pacific,” that moved Pacific Fleet Commander ADM Walter Doran to call on the U.S. Navy to “rededicate ourselves to getting back into [the ASW] business.” With undersea operations a key element of China’s emerging maritime strategy, the U.S. submarine community must learn more about this prospective competitor. Since the origins and development of any large and complex institution over time will have a strong influence on its future evolution, this article reviews the known history of the PLAN submarine force.

_*200 Submarines for Imperial China*_

Following the humiliating Opium War of the mid-19th century, China faced continual encroachment from Western nations, and total defeat at the hands of the “upstart” Japanese in 1895. The occupation of Beijing by an alliance of powers in 1900 only added insult to injury. China’s profound maritime weakness, however, encouraged surprisingly bold thinking about emerging technologies for undersea warfare. Over the last decades of the 19th century, Chinese leaders attempted vainly to gain the support of foreign powers, particularly Britain and France, for constructing a modern navy. In 1915, a former U.S. naval attaché, CDR Irvin Gillis, arranged for the visit of Vice-Admiral Wei Han and 30 Chinese student officers to Groton, Connecticut to observe submarine building and operations. According to one account, Wei Han “delighted [Electric Boat] officials by announcing that China needed a fleet of 200 submarines.” An initial purchase of 12 vessels was inked, and plans for training Chinese crews were put into place. Unfortunately for China’s navy – and for Electric Boat – these agreements collapsed as the imperial regime gradually gave way to the so-called warlord era.

Years of desultory internecine warfare among the warlords were followed by a period of growing consolidation during the late 1920s and early 1930s under the leadership of the Chinese nationalist, Chiang Kai-shek. Submarines continued to be of significant interest. Chiang attempted to purchase German submarines in 1934 and hired a German naval advisor. Although nothing materialized, Chiang did succeed in sending a number of young naval officers to Germany for training on submarine technology. Some of these officers would later rise to prominence in the PLAN. After these false starts, China finally received its first two submarines from the British after World War II, but following the Communist civil war victory in 1949, China would look to Russia for submarine assistance.








Soviet-designed “Romeo”-class conventional attack submarines were produced in significant quantities by China between 1965 and the early 1980s, and the PLAN eventually had more than 60 of these boats in service. The “Romeo”s displaced 1,319 tons surfaced and 1,712 tons submerged on a length of 252 feet. China continues to produce the _Ming_class, which originally was simply a wider “Romeo”, but has been continuously upgraded with advanced quieting and weaponry.The PLAN’s first nuclear-powered attack submarine – of the _Han_ class – was laid down in the mid-1960s but did not enter service until 1974. The first two of these five ships were troubled with serious propulsion defects, lacked basic weaponry and electronics, and were never entirely reliable. The latter members of the class displaced 5,550 tons submerged on a length of 295 feet, and in 1985, one of them made a submerged voyage of 84 days.
_*Little Brother*_

In fact, close cooperation with Soviet submariners predated the Communist victory in China. Stalin’s Red Army had entered northern China during the final weeks of the war against Japan in mid-1945. By 1948, a significant force of 14 Soviet submarines patrolled the Yellow Sea, operating out of Lushun at the tip of the Liaodong Peninsula. In the fall of 1948, Chiang 
Kai-Shek’s Kuo-Min Tang (KMT) faction, fielding a number of surface combatants, attempted to blockade Manchuria and insulate central China from Communist infiltration. This effort failed, probably because of intelligence on the KMT patrols from Soviet submarines, and when the Peolples Iberation Army (PLA) also succeeded in landing large contingents of Communist organizers on the nearby Shandong Peninsula, Chiang’s armies were soon defeated in central China.

The Communist Party approved the preliminary formation of a Chinese submarine force in June 1949, four months before the official founding of the PRC.

Mao Zedong’s focus on submarines reflected both his determination to end the “Chinese nation’s total failure to create maritime defenses” and the strong influence of the Soviet “New School” approach to maritime strategy. The doctrine was encapsulated in a three-character phrase to guide the PRC’s new navy: “Qian, Kong, Kuai” – “Submarines, [Land-Based] Aircraft, and Fast [Attack Patrol Boats].” In 1951, several hundred officers were selected from the ground forces to form the nucleus of the new submarine corps. Many were sent to study with the Soviet Pacific Fleet and trained aboard Soviet submarines. However, a year later, the submarine force suffered its first major institutional setback when the extraordinary demands of the stalemated Korean conflict forced the PLA to divert funds from shipbuilding to aircraft production.

Nonetheless, step-by-step progress under Soviet tutelage continued during the 1950s. Over the course of the decade, 275 Chinese students traveled to the USSR to study submarine building and operations. In 1953, the PLAN received its first submarines, (one M-class, and three S 1-class) from the USSR and founded the submarine academy at Qingdao. The following June, the PLAN declared its first, four-ship submarine squadron operational, although some authorities believe that submarines operating in the Yellow Sea before 1954 may well have had joint Sino-Soviet crews. On the whole, China’s initial submarine efforts were concentrated in the North Sea Fleet, probably to counter U.S. forces based in Japan. Mao’s recognition of the importance of the developing submarine force was underscored by his January 1956 visit to the Jiangnan shipyard in Shanghai, where the PRC’s very first submarine was being built from a Soviet kit. China would eventually build 21 of these Soviet “Whiskey”-class boats.

As early as 1956, even before China had produced its first diesel boat, nuclear propulsion for submarines was adopted as a national priority by Mao himself. The daunting challenge that this entailed only became fully clear after Moscow refused Beijing’s explicit request to share nuclear propulsion technology, on the grounds that it would be premature for the PLAN. Foreshadowing the imminent souring of Sino-Soviet relations, Mao reacted indignantly: “We will have to build nuclear submarines even if it takes us 10,000 years.” In July 1958, the Politburo approved an ambitious plan to develop nuclear propulsion and an SLBM simultaneously.

*Problematic Adolescence*

By 1957, the year that culminated a “golden age” of relatively rational governance and steady development under the Communists, the Chinese had established a strong foundation for their submarine force. However, this period was followed by the gravely-destructive Great Leap Forward (GLF) in 1958 and later by the Great Cultural Revolution (GCR) of 1966-69. These periods of tumult had lasting, deleterious effects on the PLAN submarine force.

Mao’s GLF was an attempt to accelerate China’s modernization process by turning away from the Soviet model of development in favor of an effort to harness the ideological will of the Chinese people. Accordingly, Mao rejected Khrushchev’s offer to create a joint Sino-Soviet fleet in exchange for a renewed Soviet naval presence in Chinese waters. As a result, Russia was prevented from locating submarine broadcast transmitters on the Liaodong peninsula, and China lost a unique opportunity to augment the strength and operational capabilities of the PLAN undersea force.








Beijing was actively supporting North Vietnam in its escalating war. Just before the great rift opened between China and the USSR, the PLAN had received a kit and associated plans for a “Golf”-class ballistic missile submarine from the Soviets, and it was launched at Dalian in 1964. Washington was so perturbed by this development that a serious proposal was made – but subsequently rejected – to execute a preemptive attack against this vessel on its maiden voyage.

The Cultural Revolution of the late 1960s dealt another major shock to the Chinese submarine force during its troubled adolescence. Due to its reliance on technically skilled personnel and foreign assistance, the Navy was much more vulnerable to this crusade against intellectuals and foreign influence than the dominant army. Beginning in 1966, approximately 3,800 naval officers were investigated and purged, including at least 11 senior admirals. The troubled nuclear propulsion program was also affected by the resulting chaos. In 1966, the lead designer for the PLAN’s prospective nuclear submarines, Huang Xuhua, was tried and retried by mobs of Red Guards, who accused him of being an enemy agent; only the intervention of Premier Zhou Enlai saved him from serving a sentence raising pigs. Additionally, factional violence broke out during January 1967 at the nuclear fuel plant in Baotou, interrupting research on fuel rods for submarine reactors. Given that China’s first-generation nuclear submarines were developed against this backdrop, it is hardly surprising that their operational performance was considerably inferior to that of contemporary American or Russian vessels.

There were, however, significant areas of progress, perhaps the result of increasing defense expenditures during the period. In 1968, China broke ground on massive, hardened shelters for its nuclear submarine fleet not far from Qingdao and completed the installation in the mid-1970s. Of the 16 major combatants constructed during the Cultural Revolution, 12 were submarines, including the new “Romeo” class, which appeared in 1968. That same year the Chinese laid the keel for their first SSN.

But overall, the Cultural Revolution had a devastating impact on the development of China’s submarine force. In a broad assault against military education, the Qingdao submarine academy, which had 2,000 students at the time, was closed down in 1969 and did not reopen until 1973. Training and maintenance also suffered during this tumultuous period and exacted a long-lasting toll from the PLAN submarine force. As elsewhere in Chinese society, the submarine force inherited a “lost generation” that had been poorly educated and trained. Perhaps even more debilitating, the Navy was forced to commission ideologically acceptable “left-leaning” officer recruits whose incompetence would impede technical and organizational progress in the force well into the 1980s. The disaster of the Cultural Revolution for Chinese maritime power has long been recognized in PLAN publications.

*Back from the Brink*

China’s submarine force benefited significantly when the chaos of the Cultural Revolution was replaced by the rigid and total militarization of Chinese society in the early 1970s. This change was due partly to a growing perception of threats from the Soviet Union. Production rates of the PLAN’s “Romeo”-class submarines trebled, to approximately six per year by 1974, and by 1978, China had more than 60 of these ships. China’s first indigenous anti-ship torpedoes, the Yu-1 and Yu-2, also entered serial production at this time, to be followed a decade later by an ASW homing torpedo, the Yu-3. During the mid-1970s, Chinese submarines began to venture further afield, penetrating the first island chain (the line from the Philippine Islands, through Taiwan to the Ryukus), and even the second island chain (formed by Indonesia, the Marianas Archipelago, and the main islands of Japan) for the first time. Most significantly, the first, long-delayed _Han_-class SSN became operational in 1974, although its propulsion system was highly susceptible to steam and primary leaks and reportedly exposed the crew to significant radiation dangers. The ship also lacked weaponry and basic electronic systems.

Deng Xiaoping’s ascendance in the late 1970s signaled a welcome turn to more pragmatic policies in all aspects of Chinese governance. Even so, the submarine force could well have suffered from both significant reductions in China’s defense budget and a new emphasis on China’s ground forces after Vietnam successfully fought China to a bloody draw in 1979. Indeed, the nuclear propulsion program did suffer serious budget cuts during the early 1980s, but since decommissioning the oldest diesel boats increased overall efficiency, the PLAN submarine force made incremental progress. First, there was the successful submerged launch of the JL-1, China’s first SLBM from the “Golf”-class SSB in 1982. In 1985, a _Han_-class SSN stayed under for 20,000 nautical miles and 84 days. Taking advantage of China’s new openness to foreign technology, the PLAN bought French DUUX-5 sonars for its submarines, while initiating a major program to decrease the acoustic signatures of its existing submarine fleet. As the Soviet threat receded under Gorbachev, the PLAN’s SSBN project apparently faced the threat of termination, but the successful submerged launch of a JL-1 from the new_Xia_-class SSBN in 1988 kept it alive. Concurrently, major geopolitical shifts were underway that would provide new impetus to Chinese seapower as it neared the 21st century.

China’s only SSBN, the _Xia_, was laid down 
in 1971 but only entered service in 1988. Displacing approximately 7,000 tons submerged on a length of 394 feet, she carries 12 Ju Lang-1 strategic missiles. The first of a new SSBN class, which will carry 16 JL-2 missiles, is already under construction and may be at sea as early as next year.




The first of the indigenously designed and produced _Song_-class conventionally-powered attack submarines was launched in 1994, and the ships have entered series production. They displace 1,700 tons surfaced and 2,250 tons submerged on a length of 246 feet and can launch anti-ship cruise missiles while underwater.





The PLAN ordered four “Kilo”-class diesel submarines from Russian in 1993, and all were delivered by 1998. In 2002, Beijing agreed to purchase eight more “Kilos”, with delivery scheduled for 2005-07. These very capable ships displace 2,350 tons surfaced and 3,126 tons submerged on a length of 242 feet, and they may be capable of firing the Russian SS-N-X-27 supersonic anti-ship cruise missile.



*Today and Tomorrow*

Pivotal events at that time were the Tiananmen Square Massacre in June 1989, the Persian Gulf War, and the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. These developments both eliminated the perception of a Russian threat and raised the specter of ideological and even military conflict with the increasingly powerful United States. Moreover, the ongoing Chinese economic miracle that started in 1978 created plentiful resources that could now be devoted safely to maritime defense, at a time when the poverty-stricken Russians were eager to oblige with aerospace and maritime technology at cut-rate prices.

Under the direction of submariner Admiral Zhang Lianzhong, the PLAN placed orders for four diesel submarines from the Russians in 1993: two export-version type 877 “Kilos” and two improved type 636 “Kilos,” all delivered by 1998. In 2002, Beijing agreed to purchase eight more type 636 “Kilos” with delivery to occur in 2005-07. As part of this deal, the Chinese reportedly will also acquire Russia’s lethal SS-N-X-27 supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles with a range of over 100 nautical miles. Moscow is also selling its advanced Test-71 and 53-56KE wake homing 
torpedoes to Beijing, and China may have acquired Skval super-cavitating torpedoes.

These efforts are complemented by domestic production. In addition to retaining approximately 30 aging “Romeos” and continuing to build the derivative _Ming_ class – with 20 now in the force – China has begun series production of its indigenously designed and manufactured _Song_ class, the first of which was launched in 1991. The _Songs_ – probably at least five, with eight or more under construction – incorporate advanced foreign technology and can launch anti-ship cruise missiles while submerged. China is also building the Type 093 SSN, with the first already nearing sea trials. Beijing boasts that this submarine will have performance equal to a _Los Angeles_-class SSN. Also on the ways is the Type 094 SSBN, which analysts expect at sea as early as 2005 with 16 8,000-kilometer nuclear-armed missiles.

PLAN leaders are ambitiously developing the human dimension of their underwater force as well by elevating the status of their professional non-commissioned officers in an effort to enhance and retain their skills. China’s admirals have also acknowledged that they have to compete for skilled labor by increasing the pay of some ranks by 100 percent in 1999-2000 – and the PLAN is aggressively increasing the number of officers holding advanced degrees. Training in the PLAN submarine force is strongly influenced by U.S. capabilities and operations. There is significant emphasis on mine 
warfare, anti-surface warfare, and anti-submarine warfare – the latter a new mission for China’s undersea force. By as-signing two separate crews to train on one submarine, the PLAN is potentially laying the groundwork for a major future expansion.

*Conclusion*

A group of PLAN strategists summarized their analysis of the mid-1990s revolution in military affairs (RMA) as follows: “We can conclude that during the First World War, the dominant vessel was the battleship, and in World War Two, it was the aircraft carrier. In future global 
wars, the most powerful weapon will be the submarine… [because] submarines will experience less impact from reconnaissance technology than other platforms.” Current developments suggest that this view reflects the dominant thinking of the PLA high command.

Even while suffering from slavish imitation, bizarre happenings, and tragic loss, the PLAN submarine force has embodied some of China’s most impressive technical achievements. Indeed, last April’s submarine accident was not the PLAN’s first nor will it be the last. However, the borrowed genesis and troubled adolescence of PLAN submarines should not obscure the fact that China has created a viable foundation for building a potent undersea fleet. Moreover, this newly-wealthy nation is well into a thorough modernization of its infrastructure for basic and applied research and its educational and management practices. China is well-positioned for rapid progress.

Since the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. and China have entered an unexpected period of bilateral cooperation. But even as Washington is clearly focused on more immediate problems in Iraq and elsewhere, Beijing’s military modernization continues at a rapid pace. War between the United States and a rising China is hardly inev-itable, particularly if our diplomats find a creative solution to the Taiwan issue, but if hostilities do break out, the American submarine force will undoubtedly be in the thick of the fight.




From Humble Origins China's Submarine Force Comes of Age

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Manticore




----------



## Manticore

Developments in China are especially interesting. That country certainly added a new dimension to IDEX’2013 and LIMA’2013 by participating in those shows with stands. The wares on display included a scaled model of the S20 diesel-electric submarine, the first-ever submersible vessel from China specially developed for export. With this, the People Republic of China has filed an application (figuratively speaking) to join the very narrow club of nations exporting conventional submarines. China comes in after two other recent applicants, South Korea and Spain. The latter country has split from France and is now returned to the field of submarine design and production in its own right, while South Korea is benefiting from German technology transfer.


LIMA’2013 was the first air and maritime show on the Malaysian holiday island of Langkawi to have a Chinese exhibitor with a stand. During conferences and press briefings at LIMA’2013, the Malaysian defense minister Ahmad Zahid Hamidi touched on China several times. Answering a question whether Malaysian government and the military are concerned with growing Chinese naval might, and expanding presence, he answered: “They have been here for ever! We have lived with them by our side for centuries. We do not have issues with China”.

This explains the fact that China Shipbuilding & Offshore Co. Ltd. (CSOC, 欢迎来到中国船贸 actually received an invitation from the Malaysian side to take part in LIMA’2013. In other words, Chinese industry is now a welcomed partner for Malaysia, so that collaboration programs between the two countries shall be considered a future possibility. CSOC is a subsidiary of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC), one of the two largest shipbuilding conglomerates in PRC with nearly a thousand enterprises and a workforce of 300,000.

A CSOC spokesman told media members that “LIMA is very impressive and interesting” and that his company “enjoys the opportunity to exchange information”. CSOC will certainly take part on the next show on Langkawi in 2015, he added. A number of countries in the region already operate ships built by CSOC. The spokesman said that the company is offering to its traditional overseas customers and potential clients landing platform docks (LPDs), frigates, fast craft and submarines, adding that exportable versions are similar to the baseline designs already in service with the People’s Liberation Army’s Navy (PLAN).

Information available on the S20 remains scarce: the Chinese manning their stands briefed spoke only to invited guests. Graphics indicated that the S20 can attack surface targets using “anti-ship missile”, lay “mines”, launch “torpedoes” (with no indication of intended targets) and release “frogman”. Nothing indicated the ability to launch the long-range CH-SS-NX-13 ASCM or any other sort of land-strike missiles (which might be of interest to some potential customers, knowing that PLAN’s diesel-electric boats are land-strike capable). The scaled model itself was relatively schematic, with no cutaways. It indicated presence of six torpedo tubes in the nose section and seven-blade propeller in the tail with highly curved blades.

In appearance, the S20 bears resemblance to the Yuan class or Type 041. The latter is believed to have an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, most likely employing Stirling type of engines (which, again, might be of interest to potential customers). By US estimates, the Yuan class possesses a lower relative detectability than the Song. By noise characteristics, the Yang is placed in between the Project 636 and the Type 039, according to Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI).

Making an exportable version of the series produced Yang does make sense, as this promises reduced costs, parts commonality and interoperability with PLAN assets. Currently, China is known to have in series production only one diesel-electric boat, with 11 Type 041 vessels completed in 2009-2012 timeframe.

The potential of the local industry has allowed PLAN to keep a steady-state force of conventional submarine force at roughly 50 units throughout this century. Construction rate has been about 2.2 per year in 1995-2012 timeframe, with PLAN intake rising to 2.8 with Russian-built Kilo class included. Ever-growing potential of the local industry leaves little doubt about PRC’s ability to deliver obligations before foreign customers if there will be some making decision in favor of Chinese submarines.

Today, China is one of the established submarines operators, along with India, Pakistan, Iran, Japan, Taiwan, Australia and both Koreas. All of them continue building up their submarine fleets. Countries that recently added submarines to their assets or have placed orders include Malaysia, Vietnam and Indonesia. Naturally, this fact motivates other countries in the region to consider submersible assets for the navies of their own. "These facts give a clear indication of ongoing arms race in the region. We see a number of new nations coming to possess underwater capabilities and many more considering such a move", says Andrei Baranov who leads the exportable diesel electric submarine operations at Russia’s Rubin submarine designer. There are quite a few of disputed islands in the Asia-Pacific waters. Submarines are seen as the right argument in defending a smaller nation’s claims to these islands in the case when these are disputed by a larger nation with far bigger naval forces. "Submarines are the sort of weapons that can be successfully employed in the region", Baranov insists. "There are indications that many nations of the region are going to buy submarines… and buy them in worthwhile quantities", he continues. For example, Bangladesh indicated its intent to follow the trend as well as Thailand. The Philippines may also join in – though all these countries face budget constraints and competing demands on expenditure.

South East Asia is becoming a very lucrative market for shipbuilding companies. Traditional suppliers of such equipment in Germany, Russia and France hope for a big portion of orders. But they are to meet growing competition from within the region, notably from the Korean and Chinese manufacturers. Viewed from this perspective, the presence of those at IDEX and LIMA with their wares on display makes no surprise.

The sensitivity of the situation is that, while offering the S20 for export, China continues to import Russian submarines. In addition to 12 Kilos - the last batch of which was accepted in 2006 - PRC has recently ordered from Russia four submarines of the Amur 1650 design – which is similar to the S20. This fact might give a third country seeking to procure submarines a base to believe that the Russian design is somewhat more advanced. This, however, will hardly produce a worthwhile affect on the S20 target market. Its core is likely to be made of traditional clients for Chinese military equipment, the countries that receive help from China or in other ways dependant on PRC and motivated/inclined to buy “made in China” products.
Conventional submarine centre of gravity moves East | Asian Defence News Articles | Defence Review Asia






*Yuan Type 039A / Type 041*
The YUAN-class SSP is armed similarly to the SONG-class SS, but also includes an air-independent power system. The Yuan Type 039A [by 2007 some sources designated this class as the Type 041] is a non-nuclear powered attack submarine. As early as 1994 there were indications that China appeared to be attempting to build the Kilo in its own ship-yards [Richard Sharpe, Jane's Fighting Ships, 1994-1995 (Coulsdon, Surrey, Eng.: Jane's Information Group, 1994), p. 541]. The 2002 edition of Chinese Military Power noted that " the KILO provides Beijing with access to previously unavailable quieting and weapons technology. China most likely will try to incorporate aspects of this submarine into its domestic programs, although it will take several years before these technologies could be used effectively ..... China will continue using Russian technology to improve quieting, propulsion, and submarine design; it also is incorporating foreign technology into its existing submarines. China also will benefit from the maturation of its domestic submarine research and development (R&D) infrastructure to achieve a capability to design and manufacture modern submarines domestically."

*Type 039A / Type 041 Yuan-class Design*
The Yuan incorporates lessons from the PLAN's experience with the Kilo. The Yuan incorporates some of the best features of the Song and the Kilo. The Yuan class has a tail with diving planes similar to those of the Type 039G, and a Kilo-style teardrop shaped hull with a raised hump on top. The Yuan has the raised decking/casing of the Kilo, the high freeboard and reserve bouyancy, a similarly-shaped bow (and torpedo tube disposition), but with the sail, propeller layout and stern section of the Song. It has also been suggested that the new submarine may be comparable to the improved variant of the Russian Kilo class (Project 636) in terms of size and general performance.

Precise specifications for the Yuan are unclear, though it is evidently about as large as the 242 foot long Kilo and the 246 foot long Song, that is about 75 meters. Considereing the fact that this class is nearly a decade old, the new 2013 edition of Combat Fleets had surprsingly sparse information.

According to The Washington Times (July 16, 2004), American officials initially believed the submarine was diesel-powered. In March 2007 Jane's Navy International reported that the Yuan class was fitted with an AIP system developed by the No.711 Research Institute. Yuan is using an AIP engine of 100 kw in power, and is probably equipped with 2 such AIP engine. The Gotland submarines use 2 V4-275R stirling AIP units (each rated 75 kw). The larger Yuan obviously needs more powerful AIP units.

Study of a special engine, stare at the Institute of the China shipbuilding industry Corporation 711 developers for decades to build. In 1975, China ship Research Institute No. 711 Research Institute set up a special laboratory of engines, in June 1996, the establishment of specialized engine Engineering Research Center. After the "85", "95" studies have exceeded 12 key technologies. 1 years who owns full independent intellectual property rights was successfully developed China's first specialty engines after the prototype, they successfully developed a project prototype, the overall level has reached the international advanced level, some technology is an international leader.

Special engine research process, 711 Research Institute this as an opportunity to train a large number of technical backbone. From presiding at the beginning of the project, the team only if more than 10 people, which grew to more than 100 people. Emerging model of Shanghai, Shanghai Youth Science and technology and other advanced character of excellence, and that's what this team, was recognized as the people's Liberation Army General armament Department "researching advanced group", has twice been awarded the "Shanghai model workers collective".

Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked. Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile, the Yuan class may also be capable of launching the latest Russian weapons (or their Chinese copies) such as the TEST-71MKE wire-guided torpedo, the 53-65KE wave-hoyuan torpedo, and even 3M-54E Club supersonic submarine-launched anti-ship missile.

The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system.

*Type 039A / Type 041 Yuan-class Program*
The new Yuan Class attack submarine is part of a more general Chinese naval buildup. With the risk of armed conflict over Taiwan always present, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) has invested heavily in submarines, with the goal of converting them into a first-line of attack vis-a-vis carriers.

It's existence was first noted in mid-2004 when a photograph of the completed submarine at China's*Wuhan Shipyard* was posted on a Chinese website. The Wuhan Shipyard had also built the Type 039/G (Song class), Type 035 (Yuan class), Type 033G (Wuhan-A class) and Type 033 (Romeo class) diesel-electric submarines for the PLA Navy. The first 039A completed sea trials in 2005. The second Yuan was said to have been launched in December 2004. While this second boat was rumored to be under construction, as of 2007 this was not confirmed. The delay in the construction of the second 039A suggests that the design might have suffered certain technical problems.

The precise role the Yuan will play in the future of the PLAN remained obscure as of 2007. With the earlier Song class remaining in production at a rate of two per year, it was unclear whether the Yuan design would remain an experimental side show, or form the prototypes for serial production after the year 2010.

By 2013 it had become clear that production of the Song had ceased with 3 units, with the Yuan taking up the slack, with at least 8 [Combart Fleets says 9] units in service by 2013. China may plan to construct up to 20 YUAN-class SSPs. Vice Admiral Albert H. Konetzni, Jr. USN (Retired), former Deputy Commander and Chief of Fleet Forces Command. Konetzni predicted that China might have 75 modern submarines by 2020 [Statement of Before the Projection Forces Subcommittee of the House Armed Services Committee 28 March 2006].



*S-20 Export Variant*
Beijing based China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co. (CSOC) unveiled several new designs during IDEX 2013, the international defense exhibition held in the United Arab Emirates. At the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition in Malaysia from March 26 to 30, China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation again displayed its S-20 diesel-engine submarine. A model of that submarine was displayed at NAVDEX at Abu Dhabi in February 2013 for the first time ever. The Chinese staff participating in the exhibition said that S-20 was developed not merely for domestic demand but also for export on international market.

While there are clear difference between the S-20 and the Type 041, the former would appear to be the export variant of the later. S-20’s length is 66 meters [versus 73-75 meters for the Yuan], beam is 8 meters, draft is 8.2 meters, surface displacement is 1,850 tons and submerged displacement is 2,300 tons [both a bit less than the Yuan], maximum speed is 18 knots [a bit slower than the Yuan], cruise speed is 16 knots [the same as the Yuan], range is 8,000 nautical miles at 16 knots, endurance is 60 days and crew, 38 versus 58 for the Yuan. It is double hulled with maximum submerging depth of 300 meters. Different from the Type 041 exclusively for Chinese navy, the ship is not equipped with air-independent propulsion (but it may also be fitted with AIP (air-independent propulsion) system if a customer requests).

S-20 submarine is equipped with variable frequency hydrophonic detection device and towed sonar. The weapons fit may varry according to customer requirements but the S20 may accommodate heavy torpedoes and anti-ship missiles from six torpedo tubes and deploy mines and special forces. China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation gives no details about the types of weapon to be installed on S-20 submarine, but it declares that it may provide torpedoes, rocket-propelled torpedoes, anti-torpedo torpedoes, etc.



*Type 039A / Type 041 Yuan-class Nomenclature*
Khubilai Khan (1215-94) was a grandson of Genghis Khan (1167?-1227) and the supreme leader of all Mongol tribes. After the Song Dynasty had been destroyed in 1279, Khubilai Khan declared himself emperor of a united China with its capital at Dadu, and he established the Yuan ("first," "beginning") Dynasty (1279-1368). A rich cultural diversity evolved in China during the Yuan Dynasty, as it had in other periods of foreign dynastic rule. Major achievements included the development of drama and the novel and the increased use of the written vernacular. The introduction of foreign musical instruments enriched the Chinese performing arts. The conversion to Islam of growing numbers of people in northwestern and southwestern China dates from this period. The Mongols undertook extensive public works. Land and water communications were reorganized and improved. In time, Khubilai's successors became sinicized, and they then lost all influence on other Mongol lands across Asia. Rivalry among the Mongol imperial heirs, natural disasters, and numerous peasant uprisings led to the collapse of the Yuan dynasty. The last of the nine successors of Khubilai was expelled from Dadu in 1368 by Zhu Yuanzhang, the founder of the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644).

Yuan Type 039A Type 041

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

*Future Chinese 3000 ton class standard submarine with AIP*

Displacement: 3,400 tons (submerged)
Length: 80 m
Beam: 10 m
Tubes: 533mm x 6
Weapons: 21 Torpedoes
Speed 13 knots surface, 21 knots submerged, 10 knots AIP mode
Depth: 450M
Duration: 60 days
Crew: 50






As there is increasing interest of pakistan in chinese subs, I decided to post some collective info on where the chinese subs stand

Chinese members are free to post related info

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Akasa

Rumors are that the Type 095 and Type 096 will soon be revealed. According to a test submarine configurations, the new technologies might include a VLS, new special forces hatch, new high speed torpedo, a new heat powered weapon, surface to air missiles, new ballistic missile, and underwater unmanned vehicle.

There is already an upgraded Type 093 at a naval base, dubbed by Internet observers the Type 093B, and there seems to be a new upgraded Type 094 as well.


----------



## Manticore

*China Launched a New Submarine Never Seen Before*
*Posted:* December 15, 2013 Yuan-class | Tiananmen's Tremendous Achievements










China’s recently launched newest conventional submarine

Some photos with the caption “China’s most advanced conventional submarine was launched in the Yangtze River” have been posted and reblogged on the Internet in China. Western military media have recently shown great interest in them. It is a Chinese submarine never seen before. Western media believe that according to its appearance, it is China’s newest Yuan class submarine with much improvement in reducing noise and better underwater navigation performance for operation in deep water.

When the photos began to be reblogged on the Internet in early September, Western experts regarded them as Chinese web users’ pranks. However, when clearer photos have been posted, they do believe that it is a new Yuan class submarine. On September 23, globalstrategygroup.com of the United States gave the submarine the codename of 041C on its own, regarding it as an upgraded version of the Types 041A and 041B China previously built.

However, the previous Type 041A and 041B submarines look similar to Russian Kilo grade submarine, but the new one is similar to Russian Lada class instead of Kilo class.

Kilo class submarines are so wonderfully quiet as to be regarded “black holes” in the ocean, but Lada class is 8 times quieter.

Jane’s Defence Weekly also believes that the submarine is similar to Russian Lada class. It says that the submarine’s thick and strong hull and relatively short stern reduce drag when cruising under water. The curve of its sail hull is smoother and the sail is lower than that of previous Yuan class submarine. The curved casing of the sail hull that covers the connection between the sail hull and the main hull conforms better to fluid mechanics principles.

Source: qianzhan.com “PLA suddenly launched a new type of submarine never seen by foreign media” (summary by Chan Kai Yee based on the report in Chinese)

Related posts:


China Developing Super Quiet and Fast Strategic Nuclear Submarines dated July 26
Official on Successful Development of 4th-generation Nuclear Submarine in past decade dated August 20
Crew of New-type Nuclear Submarine Rewarded by Xi Jinping dated September 7
China’s Nuclear Submarines Able to Ambush Near the US for Sudden Second Strike dated November 6
Chinese Nuclear Submarine Not as Noisy as Described by the US dated November 7
Official Exposure of China’s Mystic 095 Attack Nuclear Submarine dated December 1

*China Suddenly Launched New Submarine Similar to Russian Super Quiet Lada-class*
*Posted:* October 24, 2013 |






China, advanced submarine, Yuan-class, Lada-class, quiet submarine

The submarine must be the newest Yuan-class one. The previous type of Yuan-class is similar to Russian Kilo-class one, but Jane’s Defense Weekly says that judging by the photos posted on the Internet, this one is similar to Russian Lada-class in shape.

A Lada-class submarine is covered with silencing tiles and equipped with quieter engine eight times more silent than Kilo-class. It is in addition better maneuverable.

Source: qianzhan.com “PLA’s sudden launch a submarine of the newest type amazed foreign media” (summary by Chan Kai Yee based on the report in Chinese)

Related posts:


Secret Photos of Various Types of Chinese Navy’s Core of Submarines Made Public dated October 7
China: Crew of New-type Nuclear Submarine Rewarded by Xi Jinping dated September 7
China: Official on Successful Development of 4th-generation Nuclear Submarine in past decade dated August 20
China Developing Super Quiet and Fast Strategic Nuclear Submarines dated July 26

*Lots of China’s New Submarines with European and Russian Technology*
*Posted:* April 19, 2013 | 



According to a report at Russian Military Messenger Net, Nekolai Novichkov, chief editor of the military column of ITAR-TASS, and a commentator of the column have published an article on Military Messenger Weekly that gives an analysis of the consequence of Russian export of Amur-class conventional submarines to China. They point out that the new S-20 submarine that China recently displays is able to carry anti-ship missiles. Its first batch of potential buyers perhaps includes Pakistan and Bangladesh. The article also says that judging by satellite photos, China has built seven or eight Yuan-class diesel-engine submarines since September 2004 and had commissioned four Type 041 submarines by early 2012.

The following is the full text of the article at Russian Military Messenger Net:

The two writers point out: China is now striving to become an exporter of modern conventional submarines. For that purpose, China is thirsty of the newest submarine technology. As soon as China emerges as a producer on global submarine market, it will not only affect French and Swedish market shares, but also deal a blow at the two leaders in conventional submarine market: Germany and Russia.

At the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition in Malaysia from March 26 to 30, China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation again displayed its S-20 diesel-engine submarine. A model of that submarine was displayed at NAVDEX at Abu Dhabi in February this year for the first time ever. The Chinese staff participating in the exhibition said that S-20 was developed not merely for domestic demand but also for export on international market.

S-20 submarine has 6 torpedo launching tubes at its bow. The structure of its driving cabin and stern looks more similar to a diminished copy of Yuan-class conventional submarine. It is necessary to point out that the submarine has been developed on the basis of the Russian and European technology obtained specially for Type 041 to be used by Chinese navy. Naval experts believe that S-20’s first batch of potential buyers may probably be Pakistan and Bangladesh.

China’s Type 041 conventional submarine was first found in 2004. On February 27 that year a US reconnoiter satellite found a submarine of that type at a shipyard in Wuhan Shipbuilding Plant. Since then, Chinese navy has commissioned one by one 7 to 8 Type 041 submarines. US Defense Ministry forecast in 2010 that China will build 15 submarines of that new type.

US reconnoiter satellite did not find any trace of Yuan-class submarine in the period from 2005 to 2006. That is understandable: According to China’s strategy of submarine construction. The first submarine shall undergo a series of tests for a relatively long duration of time. It was not until September 21, 2007 that a Yuan-class submarine was found again. Experts believe that the submarine found then was the second Type 041 submarine (the first built by mass production). On November 27 the same year two more such submarines appeared at Wuhan Shipbuilding Plant, which experts believe were the second and third Type 041 submarines.

Later, the two submarines both sailed out to undergo tests for a long time because according to satellite photos taken in 2009, no Type 041 was found at Wuhan Shipbuilding Plant. It was not until December 7, 2010, a reconnoiter satellite found three submarines of that type at Wuhan Shipbuilding Plant. On April 26, 2011 photos taken by satellites revealed that construction of one Type 041 submarine had completed and the ship was sailing to Shanghai.

That means that judging by satellite photos, since September 2004, China has built 7 or 8 Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines, of which the first one (no. 330) was commissioned in 2006. In early 2012, four Type 041 submarines (nos. 330-333) were in service, one more, being built and three more, to be built.

As for S-20 submarines for export, there are clear difference between it and Type 041. S-20’s length is 66 meters, beam, 8 meters, draft, 8.2 meters, surface displacement, 1850 tons, submerged displacement, 2,300 tons, maximum speed, 18 knots, cruise speed, 16 knots, range, 8,000 nautical miles at 16 knots, endurance, 60 days and crew, 38. It is double hulled with maximum submerging depth of 300 meters. Different from the Type 041 exclusively for Chinese navy, the ship is not equipped with air-independent propulsion (but can be installed on demand).

S-20 submarine is equipped with variable frequency hydrophonic detection device and towed sonar. Its major weapons include torpedoes, naval mines, anti-ship missiles, etc. China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation gives no details about the types of weapon to be installed on S-20 submarine, but it declares that it may provide torpedoes, rocket-propelled torpedoes, anti-torpedo torpedoes, etc.

Source: mil.huanqiu.com “Russian media: quite a few China’s new submarines found by satellite; their technology originated from Russia and Europe”

Related posts:
China to build 15 more Yuan-class submarines with German engines
China to Buy Super Quiet Russian Submarines to Counter US Aircraft Carrier


*China to build 15 more Yuan-class submarines with German engines*
*Posted:* April 11, 2013 |






Chinese submarine in Indian Ocean

[China’s Shocking Submarine Manufacture Technology]

Hindustan Times said in its report on April 9: China is scaling up its underwater capabilities, the Indian Navy’s submarine force levels will be the lowest in its history by 2015, a confidential defense ministry report has revealed.

In comparison, “China may plan to construct 15 additional Yuan-class attack submarines, based on German diesel engine purchases.” “It is said the Yuan-class submarines could be equipped with air-independent propulsion systems to recharge their batteries without having to surface for more than three weeks, a capability currently unavailable with the Indian Navy,” said the newspaper.

In addition, China is purchasing advanced submarines from abroad. It has ordered 4 Russian Lada-class submarines, which are believed to be 8 times less noisy than Kilo-class ones.

China will purchase German engines to build 15 more Yuan-class submarines
The [confidential’ report said: By the end of 2015, Indian “navy will be left with merely six to seven submarines, including India’s first and only nuclear-armed ballistic missile submarine INS Arihant, as it begans phasing out the Russian Kilo-class submarines and German HDW Type 209 submarines.”

“The report warned India had ‘never before been poised in such a vulnerable situation’ and the undersea force levels were ‘at a highly precarious state’.

“The size of India's submarine fleet will roughly be the same as that of the Pakistani Navy in two years. ‘As this critical (undersea) capability is eroded, there is an inverse increase in both capability and strength of the Chinese and Pakistani navies,’ the [confidential] report stated.”

The newspaper says, “Six Scorpene submarines are currently being built at the Mazagon Dock Ltd in Mumbai with technology from French firm DCNS under a Rs. 23,562-crore project codenamed P-75.

“But the first of these boats will not be ready before 2016-17, though it should have been commissioned into the navy last year. The report said the delay had set off a capability gap that will widen in the coming years.”

In comparison, China now has 13 Song-class, 12 Kilo-class, 7 Yuan-class and 18 Ming-class submarines. China only has 3 Han-class nuclear attack nuclear submarines as regarding nuclear submarines, China still faces lots of challenges. Nevertheless, Han-class attack nuclear submarines have been launched, that type of submarine is very noisy and easy to be discovered by Western sensors. From 1974 to 1991, China built 5 Han-class submarines, two of which have been decommissioned.

China has also commissioned 4 relatively new Shuang-class nuclear submarines, but they are similarly noisy. At the same time, Chinese navy have designed and built Type 039 Song-class submarine, which was designed and manufactured with stress on silencing effect. That class of submarines have been developed very quickly and the newest 4 Song-class submarines have been designated as Yuan-class (type 039A or 041) submarines. According to the Indian report, in consideration of China’s purchase of German diesel engines, China perhaps plans to build 15 additional Yuan-class submarines. It is said the Yuan-class submarines could be equipped with air-independent propulsion systems to recharge their batteries without having to surface for more than three weeks, a capability currently unavailable with the Indian Navy,” said the newspaper.

Type 039 submarine emerged for the first time in 2001. China has built 13 of them, but in 2008, an obviously different Type 039 submarine emerged. That type of submarine is referred to as Type 039A or 041 submarine. Having built two Type 039A submarines, China built two submarines of a type derived from Type 039 with the code name of 039B. That evolution is going on. At present, China has already had 6 or 7 Type 041 Yuan-class submarines (including at least three different types). The newest version of that type of submarines is obviously equipped with air-independent propulsion system and new type of electronic equipment and is undergoing internal improvement.

The quick evolution of Type 039 submarine is perhaps an example of the incorporation of Russian submarine technology in the design ideas and new technology in that type of submarine. Since China began to build submarines in the 1960s, China has always been doing so. However, the design of the newest Type 41 indicates that Chinese navy’s engineers have already had more creative ideas.

It is believed that two or even more Yuan-class submarines are equipped with the air-independent propulsion system that enables them to stay for as long as two weeks under water. Western countries’ air-independent propulsion systems enable submarines to stay under water for two weeks or longer, but the functions and reliability of Chinese ones are a little inferior to similar Russian or Western ones. China will keep on improving its air-independent propulsion system just as it is doing in other areas of military technology.

Song-class submarine is very similar to Russian Kilo-class submarine in appearance. Both Types 039 and 041 are 1800-ton grade, carry a crew of 60 and are installed with 6 tornado tubes. That is also very similar to Kilo-class submarine, which is only a little larger. In late 1990s, China began to purchase Russian Kilo-class submarines. At that time, it was the most advanced submarine available to China. The first two Type 041 submarines are obviously copies of the early type (Type 877) of Kilo-class submarine, but the next two seem to be copies of the relatively new Type 636 submarine.

The newest Yuan-class submarines still look very similar to Kilo-class submarine, but there may be evolution to make them similar to Lada-class submarine. Type 039 is the first Chinese submarine with teardrop hull. Type 041 submarine is regarded as an improved version of Song-class submarine, but upon careful observation especially in Russian perspective, that type of submarine looks like a copy of Kilo-class submarine. Russian people believe the entire project of Song/Yuan-class submarine is China’s long-term plan to successfully copy Kilo-class submarines. If that is the case, Chinese efforts seem quite successful.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

The *Type 032 submarine* (NATO code name _Qing_class) is a class of diesel-electric submarine currently undergoing testing in China's People's Liberation Army Navy. It is said to be the world's largest conventional submarine, at a submerged displacement of 6628 tons and is able to submerge for a maximum of 30 days. The Type 032 has a similar ventral "bay" to the Golf class submarinethat protrudes downward.
It's a test bed for Chinese domestic sub-launched cruise missile, new escape cabin and new sub-launced ICBM.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

great work monticore

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cirr

Type 039C submarine according to Pinkov the ”Bald-headed“：






Kanwa Information Center

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cirr




----------



## Akasa

cirr said:


>



095, 093B, 096?


----------



## cirr



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Oldman1

cirr said:


>



Do Chinese submarines usually have numbers on the sail? First time I've seen something like that.


----------



## qwerrty

Oldman1 said:


> Do Chinese submarines usually have numbers on the sail? First time I've seen something like that.



091




092


----------



## Oldman1

qwerrty said:


> 091
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 092



Man those are really old photos. Are you mocking me? How about posting newer submarine photos.


----------



## qwerrty

just showing that it's not new


----------



## lcloo

Oldman1 said:


> Man those are really old photos. Are you mocking me? How about posting newer submarine photos.



He posted these old picture because you said "First time I've seen something like that. ". LOL,


----------



## Oldman1

lcloo said:


> He posted these old picture because you said "First time I've seen something like that. ". LOL,



How about now? Can you post any pics with sail numbers on modern subs? If not I'm not surprised and that pic he posted is a fake.


----------



## lcloo

Oldman1 said:


> How about now? Can you post any pics with sail numbers on modern subs? If not I'm not surprised and that pic he posted is a fake.



He posted the picture with-out any narrative, so the nationality of the sub was not identified and no implication that is is a Chinese sub. As I know current Japanese submarines have numbers painted on their sails, so it is likely a Japanese sub, Posters who responded to the picture simply thought that this is a Chinese sub. Take another hint - the back ground do not look like typical Chinese shore around PLAN sub base.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## cnleio

Oldman1 said:


> Do Chinese submarines usually have numbers on the sail? First time I've seen something like that.


Old subs ever paint numbers on the sail, recently new subs like 039/039B,093,094 etc not again.

That pic is PSed, not real.


----------



## cirr

*039C*？


----------



## hk299792458

New variant of *Type 039B* SSK
















Henri K.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hk299792458

Still B...


----------



## Beast

It becoming more and more like U212 sub. With pump jet coming up on Type 094. Chinese submarine design is getting very advanced.


----------



## hk299792458

Project 636M from East sea fleet






Henri K.


----------



## hk299792458

Amateur video on the transport of the 9th Type 039B SSK






Henri K.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Oldman1

lcloo said:


> He posted the picture with-out any narrative, so the nationality of the sub was not identified and no implication that is is a Chinese sub. As I know current Japanese submarines have numbers painted on their sails, so it is likely a Japanese sub, Posters who responded to the picture simply thought that this is a Chinese sub. Take another hint - the back ground do not look like typical Chinese shore around PLAN sub base.



Oh so he posted something on a Chinese submarine thread and puts out similies with the pic like its not one of China's then? And I knew that it couldn't be China's because it has numbers on the sail. Something we haven't seen on modern Chinese subs.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Inside China's nuclear sub, but not sure it is Type 094 or Type 093.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Black Eagle 90

xhw1986 said:


> *Future Chinese 3000 ton class standard submarine with AIP*
> 
> Displacement: 3,400 tons (submerged)
> Length: 80 m
> Beam: 10 m
> Tubes: 533mm x 6
> Weapons: 21 Torpedoes
> Speed 13 knots surface, 21 knots submerged, 10 knots AIP mode
> Depth: 450M
> Duration: 60 days
> Crew: 50



Is BN and PN looking to buy these ones under license, with 6++ for PN and 3+ for BN.


----------



## Pangu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Inside China's nuclear sub, but not sure it is Type 094 or Type 093.



Nice! Peng Shilu would have been proud with the progress made so far. But we must work harder to close the gap with the west.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

cnleio said:


> Type41 ?? I think China official not that name yet, in PLAN only 039 and 039A/B
> 
> 
> Type 039 / Song class: 1,700ton underwater, 2,250ton fully submerged
> Type 039 sub pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 039A/B / Yuan class: 2,300ton underwater, 3,600 ton fully submerged
> Type 039A sub pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 039B sub pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ===> latest 039C, it's said the mono-shell AIP sub


039



cnleio said:


> 3000ton AIP sub


----------



## cirr

A new submarine built at JNS began sea trials:

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## cirr

**

*Potential Indicators of China‘s Next Generation Nuclear Submarines*

by Richard Fisher, Jr.

Published on June 30th, 2014

While China抯 People抯 Liberation Army (PLA) has gradually embraced transparency in many spheres of its military endeavors, there are a large number of issues and programs that remain closely guarded and one of these is its future nuclear submarines. However, one popular tool the PLA uses to convey limited information about some military programs is to use models. A large outdoor model of a next generation nuclear attack submarine (SSN) has appeared at the People抯 Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) Submarine Academy in Qingdao, China. The role of this model may simply be to inspire the Academy抯 students, but it may signify a larger personnel investment by the PLAN to prepare for its next generation submarines, as it may also offer some indications about a new class of SSN.

Read the



full report here.

http://www.strategycenter.net/docLib/20140630_Fisher_ChinaSubs_063014.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cirr

039B v2.0






Coming up next：039C

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## BuddhaPalm

cirr said:


> A new submarine built at JNS began sea trials:
> 
> View attachment 34443


Our answer to JMSDF Oyashio.


----------



## xuxu1457

093 SSN Subs:

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

xuxu1457 said:


> 093 SSN Subs:



The Type 093 could sail faster than the Type 054A.


----------



## Beast

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 093 could sail faster than the Type 054A.


30 knots probably or more.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Beast said:


> 30 knots probably or more.



That's why it could be a bit noisy when it sails over 30 knots, it is common for every other SSNs.

BTW, the Type 095 could sail silently at 20 knots.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## William Hung

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> That's why it could be a bit noisy when it sails over 30 knots, it is common for every other SSNs.
> 
> BTW, the Type 095 could sail silently at 20 knots.



That is true. Going over 20 knots is noisy and is only used for transitions, e.g. going from base to the patrol area or going from one patrol area to another patrol area. 

Even if they managed to make a totally silent propulsion system, making noise is unavoidable when going over 20 knots because of hydrodynamic noise (noise produced from water flowing pass the hull). So when an enemy sub is sitting still waiting for ambush, your sonar will pick up more noise from your own sub than the enemy sub. 

From what I've read, patrolling speed during peace time is restricted to 10-20knots. Patrolling during state of war or when an unwelcome guest is suspected, speed is restricted to 8-10knots. When in hostile environment or in hunting-killing mode, it's under 6knots.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RISING SUN

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 093 could sail faster than the Type 054A.


 Not could but it does. SSN is always faster than surface fleet in top speed everywhere. But with speed its accuracy is diminished significantly. Although speed is still on its side.



Black Flag said:


> That is true. Going over 20 knots is noisy and is only used for transitions, e.g. going from base to the patrol area or going from one patrol area to another patrol area.
> 
> Even if they managed to make a totally silent propulsion system, making noise is unavoidable when going over 20 knots because of hydrodynamic noise (noise produced from water flowing pass the hull). So when an enemy sub is sitting still waiting for ambush, your sonar will pick up more noise from your own sub than the enemy sub.
> 
> From what I've read, patrolling speed during peace time is restricted to 10-20knots. Patrolling during state of war or when an unwelcome guest is suspected, speed is restricted to 8-10knots. When in hostile environment or in hunting-killing mode, it's under 6knots.


 A nuke sub doesn't go that slow as it will get trapped in ambush if it slows down to that lecel. SSN is way different than a ssk. If a SSK is lurking in deep water, SSN best advantage is its constant high speed. If it slows down Ssk will hunt it down. As a SSN is always noisy compare to modern SSKs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## William Hung

RISING SUN said:


> A nuke sub doesn't go that slow as it will get trapped in ambush if it slows down to that lecel. SSN is way different than a ssk. If a SSK is lurking in deep water, SSN best advantage is its constant high speed. If it slows down Ssk will hunt it down. As a SSN is always noisy compare to modern SSKs.



Oh yes they do my friend, they do go slow (same speed range as a SSK, I. e. below 20knots) when on patrol. SSN rarely go over 20knots (or full speed) except for when transitioning to the patrol zone. Another situation when they go over 20knots is when escorting a surface fleet, where the surface vessels are going over 20knots for example.

I don't know what advantage you have in mind when saying that SSN is faster than SSK. Especially in patrolling or escorting scenario. Did you mean that a SSN can constantly go fast so the slower SSK can never hope to catch up to attack it? or that a SSN can go full speed and outrun a SSK when detected?

That's not the purpose of a patrol. If an enemy sub is detected, the SSN need to hunt it down, identify it and destroy it, not running away. If an enemy sub coordinate an ambush well and positioned itself right, it will be hard for a SSN running at over 20knots to detect it especially when the SSK is loitering slowly on batteries or AIP. That's why a Chinese sub managed to sneak within close range of a US carrier fleet years ago. Like you said, the SSK in slow speed would be more silent than the SSN. And once in torpedo range of the SSK, the SSN can never outrun the torpedo even if the SSN can go over 35knots. So I'm not sure what you mean by saying that SSN has its advantage in its speed.

Modern SSK are capable of going over 20knots.The max 20knots speed is self-imposed by the manufacturer because there's no much point for SSK to go over 20Knots. Transitioning to far away patrol zone or escorting a surface fleet is the two scenario where going over 20knots is needed but SSK don't have the endurance to patrol far from Base like SSN or to escorts surface fleets.


----------



## RISING SUN

Black Flag said:


> Oh yes they do my friend, they do go slow (same speed range as a SSK, I. e. below 20knots) when on patrol. SSN rarely go over 20knots (or full speed) except for when transitioning to the patrol zone. Another situation when they go over 20knots is when escorting a surface fleet, where the surface vessels are going over 20knots for example.
> 
> I don't know what advantage you have in mind when saying that SSN is faster than SSK. Especially in patrolling or escorting scenario. Did you mean that a SSN can constantly go fast so the slower SSK can never hope to catch up to attack it? or that a SSN can go full speed and outrun a SSK when detected?
> 
> That's not the purpose of a patrol. If an enemy sub is detected, the SSN need to hunt it down, identify it and destroy it, not running away. If an enemy sub coordinate an ambush well and positioned itself right, it will be hard for a SSN running at over 20knots to detect it especially when the SSK is loitering slowly on batiteries or AIP. That's why a Chinese sub managed to sneak within close range of a US carrier fleet years ago. Like you said, the SSK in slow speed would be more silent than the SSN. And once in torpedo range of the SSK, the SSN can never outrun the torpedo even if the SSN can go over 35knots. So I'm not sure what you mean by saying that SSN has its advantage in its speed.
> 
> Modern SSK are capable of going over 20knots.The max 20knots speed is self-imposed by the manufacturer because there's no much point for SSK to go over 20Knots. Transitioning to far away patrol zone or escorting a surface fleet is the two scenario where going over 20knots is needed but SSK don't have the endurance to patrol far from Base like SSN or to escorts surface fleets.


 Friend you do need to update your knowledge a bit. 2nd and 3rd generation SSNs had to run around 6 knots because they were pretty noisy back then. After pumpjet propulsion system 4th gen nuke boat doesn't need to care much about a SSk as was the situation against them some time back. And when you are claiming the 20 knots speed for SSK, it will be suicidal run for it as they don't have the required resources for it. And what do you mean by rarely operating over 20 knots. I don't get it. Regarding ssn vs ssk fight, when I say higher speed, i mean survivability and outmaneuvering. A SSN biggest advantage is high speed because due to this only even if a ssk detects it first it can get behind the ssk much easily. And don't forget that even though Ssn is noisy than a ssk but its SoNAr and intelligence gathering is also pretty strong backed by abundent nuke power. And why not to run away at faster speed if your position has been compromised. If you stay longer more suicidal it will become. And mind it that was not only Chinese ssk which penetrated surface force screen, there have been multiple encounters and exercises where ssks have scored hit against a carrier. Surface fleet is always at disadvantage against a sub surface fleet. Period. When on patrols nuke subs are always on high level attention which means even if a ssk detects a ssn, they don't have much chance against it. If those ssks try to coordinate they will give away their position easily. They will lose their most important weapon, their stealth.


----------



## William Hung

RISING SUN said:


> Friend you do need to update your knowledge a bit. 2nd and 3rd generation SSNs had to run around 6 knots because they were pretty noisy back then. After pumpjet propulsion system 4th gen nuke boat doesn't need to care much about a SSk as was the situation against them some time back.



Friend, now you're changing the subject matter from a SSN to a "pump-jet propulsion SSN." Not all SSNs currently operated by every navy have pump-jet propulsion. Does your recently leased Akula use pump-jet? am I correct that your Akula 's quiet mode/tactical speed is still only around 6 knots (even with the OK-300s)??

Yasen class SSN does not have pump-jet, and I thought they are fourth generation nuke sub? If I remember correctly, Yasen tactical speed is well below 15knots. So they definitely patrol or hunt below 15knots.

If you think pumpjet SSN doesn't need to care much about SSK anymore, then you should write to the US naval war college and tell them to revoke their article:

Diesel-Electric Submarines, the U.S. Navy’s Latest Annoyance

https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment...RIGHT-SUBMARINE-FOR-LURKING-IN-THE-LITTO.aspx

But even if we are only talking about pump-jet SSNs, I still don't believe that they would hunt for SSKs at over 20knots. I know that some US official claim that their Seawolf's tactical speed is 25knots, and then some BAE pr guy said their Astute can atleast match the tactical speed of the best US SSN. But when we're talking about these SSN vs modern SSKs, they won't operate at these kind of speed. (and I think comparing SSN vs SSK is relevant here, since the opponents of Chinese SSNs most likely SSKs from Japan, Vietnam, Taiwan and most likely opponent of Indian SSNs are Pak's SSK).

The reason I said they won't go over 20knots when hunting suspected enemy SSKs is because of the flow/hydrodynamic noise from the hull or the sonar array. Yes, pump-jet decreases cavitational noise and flow noise over traditional propellars dramatically but it can't help much in reducing the flow noise going across the hull and sonar array. This mean the passive sonar from enemy sub has a chance to detect this noise. But more importantly, the noise from water flowing over the array sonar can interfere or reduce its sensitivity. The flow noise from the hull can likewise compromise its hull mounted passive sonar.



> Self-noise [SN] comes from the noise from the platform the sonar is on or from the flow of water across the receiving array itself. This self-noise has a minimum value which is present regardless of the speed that the array is traveling through the water, and the self noise will increase due to flow noise and the increase in noise from the platform which carries it. *Self noise has a frequency and speed dependence.*



Now since the flow noise increases in proportionate to speed, the SSN would need to slow down in order to increase the sensitivity of its sonars. Now, you may be right in saying that american SSNs has powerful sonars, but I highly doubt it can detect modern SSKs when going over 20knots. When modern SSKs are loittering around at under 4knots on batteries/AIP or sitting still in ambush position, they are almost silent. They pratically won't produce any flow noise or any other self-noise. The only sonar can detect them is the active sonar and the SSN would need to slow down to make the most out of it. (I have an article somewhere on my PC which explain how the current sonars that the US have in operation have difficulties in detecting modern SSK and now they are developing UUVs to solve this problem, I can link it when I have time to find it).

And if we consider the environment where enemy SSKs are most likely to operate in (near coast or littoral area), it is extremely hard for SSN to detect them. That article from naval war college explains it well.

So yes, top SSNs with pumpjet propulsion may have tactical speed over 20knots, but this speed only mean the top speed that the SSN can go undetected (supposedly). But to detect enemy SSK, this speed will need to be reduced in order to make the most out of its sonars. So when when enemy sub are suspected to be in the patrol zone or when hunting for them, its speed is decreased. This is what I mean.



RISING SUN said:


> And when you are claiming the 20 knots speed for SSK, it will be suicidal run for it as they don't have the required resources for it.



Most modern SSKs like the U214/212 or Scorpene can sustain a speed of 20knots for a few hours if I remember correctly. These are burst speed used in rarely situation only (maybe in a sub on sub fight or manouvre like you mentioned?).



RISING SUN said:


> And what do you mean by rarely operating over 20 knots. I don't get it. Regarding ssn vs ssk fight, when I say higher speed, i mean survivability and outmaneuvering.



Meaning its for certain maneuvering in certain situation only, or for transitioning when encounter with enemy subs are not expected. Like I mentioned before, they have different speed for different situation like patrolling during peace time, patrolling in hostile environment or hunting mode, etc (btw, the speeds I gave previously are for PLAN subs that I've read). Different navy may use different speed to due their different SSNs characteristic or doctrine. I suspect the Russian navy will have similar figures but I may be wrong.



RISING SUN said:


> A SSN biggest advantage is high speed because due to this only even if a ssk detects it first it can get behind the ssk much easily. And don't forget that even though Ssn is noisy than a ssk but its SoNAr and intelligence gathering is also pretty strong backed by abundent nuke power.



Yes this is true. But I don't agree this is going to be the case when going up against a SSK sitting still in ambush position in a littoral environment (and this is the most likely scenario that a PLAN or Indian SSN can face). But in these cases, PLAN and Indian's SSKs will be deployed to patrol these littoral area, not SSNs. If the SSNs were deployed, they will still be at a disadvantaged like what the article say:



> Because of the short distances, high
> sustained speed for a submarine is
> not as critical a factor as it is in the
> open ocean. In shallow water, a fast-
> moving sub would have little time to
> take corrective action should anything
> go wrong. The proximity of the seabed
> creates an area of reduced pressure,
> called the squat (suction), under the
> keel.This can lead to handling difficulties and even grounding.



And I seriously doubt PLAN and Indian's SSN will be challenged in the open ocean (blue water). Maybe the Japanese Soryu SSK with its relatively long endurance.



RISING SUN said:


> And why not to run away at faster speed if your position has been compromised. If you stay longer more suicidal it will become.



If you're on a solo patrol, then yes. But a SSN on an escort mission would not just simply run away, especially if the SSK is only targetting the surface fleet and not the SSN itself.



RISING SUN said:


> And mind it that was not only Chinese ssk which penetrated surface force screen, there have been multiple encounters and exercises where ssks have scored hit against a carrier. Surface fleet is always at disadvantage against a sub surface fleet. Period.



True.



RISING SUN said:


> When on patrols nuke subs are always on high level attention which means even if a ssk detects a ssn, they don't have much chance against it. If those ssks try to coordinate they will give away their position easily. They will lose their most important weapon, their stealth.



What I meant by coordinate was that a SSK would predict the coordinate that a SSN/surface fleet would pass by (with coordination and assistance from airpatrol craft, surface ships, satelite, etc.) and sit still in ambush position or loittering slowing on batteries/AIP. In this situation, the SSN is at an disadvantage in detecting the SSK. And if the SSN/surface fleet enter within the SSK torpedo range, they are in trouble.

But we are getting off topic in this thread. So I'll try say something relevant instead:

A little bird once told me that the PLAN will phase out all of their SSKs in the future. They will only be for the export market. To deal with the littoral/coastal area and where SSKs has an advantage, they're developing UUVs that works in coordination with the SSN. The silent and fast UUVs equiped with sonar will go out and scan for enemy subs or mines. The SSN would play a role of cammand and control center. The US is also developing this. They've already managed to developed battery operated UUV with endurace of over 1 month. The future is UUVs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

Chinese Type 035G submarine.


----------



## Martian2

*Type 041 Yuan SSK with AIP*





Chinese Type 041 Yuan diesel-electric submarine with AIP (ie. air independent propulsion)






There are currently about 13 Yuan-class conventional attack submarines.[1] The Yuan SSK has many improved features.[2]

a. advanced high-frequency sonar
b. upgraded weapons systems
c. noise reduction[3][4]
d. air independent propulsion (AIP) allows a submarine to stay submerged for about three weeks
e. "This new sail design may incorporate an additional high-frequency sonar at the base of the sail, as do some other submarines with similar designs."
----------

Citations.

1. China Submarine Capabilities | NTI
"The PLAN also possesses around 13 Type 039 Song and twelve Type 041 Yuan-class submarines, which are similar in many ways, including their weapons systems, which include the domestic YJ-82 anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM)."

2. Towards stealth and sea denial - submarine arms race in East Asia - The Nation
"This new sail design may incorporate an additional high-frequency sonar at the base of the sail, as do some other submarines with similar designs.
...
Since 2004, China is believed to have launched 12 Type 041 Yuan-class conventional submarines, which have been progressively modified to carry more advanced high-frequency sonar, upgraded weapons systems, noise reduction and air independent propulsion (AIP) technologies."

3. China's new Yuan-class sub seen preparing for sea trials - IHS Jane's 360
"The new submarine features a new rubber anti-sonar coating which could provide outstanding reduction of acoustic signature.
...
Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report on China's military to Congress that production could reach 20 ships."

4. Yuan Type 039A Type 041 | GlobalSecurity
"Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked. Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile....

The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system."

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
5


----------



## Zarvan

Martian2 said:


> *Type 041 Yuan SSK with AIP*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Type 041 Yuan diesel-electric submarine with AIP (ie. air independent propulsion)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are currently about 13 Yuan-class conventional attack submarines.[1] The Yuan SSK has many improved features.[2]
> 
> a. advanced high-frequency sonar
> b. upgraded weapons systems
> c. noise reduction[3][4]
> d. air independent propulsion (AIP) allows a submarine to stay submerged for about three weeks
> e. "This new sail design may incorporate an additional high-frequency sonar at the base of the sail, as do some other submarines with similar designs."
> ----------
> 
> Citations.
> 
> 1. China Submarine Capabilities | NTI
> "The PLAN also possesses around 13 Type 039 Song and twelve Type 041 Yuan-class submarines, which are similar in many ways, including their weapons systems, which include the domestic YJ-82 anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM)."
> 
> 2. Towards stealth and sea denial - submarine arms race in East Asia - The Nation
> "This new sail design may incorporate an additional high-frequency sonar at the base of the sail, as do some other submarines with similar designs.
> ...
> Since 2004, China is believed to have launched 12 Type 041 Yuan-class conventional submarines, which have been progressively modified to carry more advanced high-frequency sonar, upgraded weapons systems, noise reduction and air independent propulsion (AIP) technologies."
> 
> 3. China's new Yuan-class sub seen preparing for sea trials - IHS Jane's 360
> "The new submarine features a new rubber anti-sonar coating which could provide outstanding reduction of acoustic signature.
> ...
> Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report on China's military to Congress that production could reach 20 ships."
> 
> 4. Yuan Type 039A Type 041 | GlobalSecurity
> "Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked. Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile....
> 
> The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system."


We are also looking to buy these hope we buy 6 of these soon

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Martian2

*Type 041 Yuan SSK can carry Yu-4, Yu-3, and Yu-6 torpedoes*





_"PLA Navy crew loads a Yu-3 ASuW torpedo into the tube of a Type 039 submarine. (Source: Chinese Internet)"_

The Type 041 Yuan SSK can carry the following weapons.[1]

a. YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles
b. Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive-homing torpedoes
c. Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes
d. Yu-6 wake-homing torpedoes. Yu-6 can also be wire-guided.[2]
e. mines [2]

----------
Citations.

1. China's new Yuan-class sub seen preparing for sea trials - IHS Jane's 360
"Uncorroborated Chinese sources have suggested that the new variant displaces about 3,500 tons compared to about 3,000 tons for earlier Type 041s. This could indicate that the new variant has more weapons - IHS Jane's Fighting Ships states that the existing variants are armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes. Yu-6 wake-homing torpedoes may also be carried."

2. Type 041 | Deagel
"The 4,000-ton Type 041 is equipped with six 533mm torpedo tubes at the bow which can launch Yu-6 wire-guided torpedoes, YJ-82 anti-ship missiles and mines."

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Martian2

*China's Yu-6 wake-homing torpedo*





_China's Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo is equivalent to the US Mark 48 Mod 4 torpedo. A single Yu-6/Mark 48 can break a destroyer into two halves. The Yu-6 can be wire-guided or wake-homing._





_A naval capital ship will leave a wake as it traverses the ocean._






*History of the Wake-homing Torpedo*[1]

The Soviets/Russians developed the wake-homing torpedo in the 1960s.

"'The usual countermeasures are noisemakers intended to decoy an approaching homing torpedo. Unfortunately the Russians use wake-following torpedoes that do not respond to the usual countermeasures at all.'

The Russian Type-53 torpedo includes sensors that detect the churn made by ships underway. Once the torpedo senses the chopped water it will follow a ship in a S-pattern between the wakes until it finds its targets.

'Anyone who buys Russian Kilo-class submarines — almost anyone the U.S. would come into conflict with — uses torpedoes which do not respond to U.S. torpedo countermeasures,' Friedman said."

*China's Yu-6 Wake-homing Torpedo*

China received its first of 12 Kilo submarines from Russia in 1995.[2]

"The Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy fields 12 Kilos with Soviet-era Type 53-65 wake homing torpedoes with a range of 11.8 miles, according to the soon to be released 16th edition of the Naval Institute Guide to Combat Fleets of the World."

*This means China had 20 years to improve upon the original Russian wake-homing technology.*

The United States recognizes the threat of wake-homing torpedoes like the Yu-6 and is trying to develop an anti-torpedo torpedo. However, it is experimental and no defensive weapon system is 100% effective in a real battle.

Citations.

1. Navy Develops Torpedo Killing Torpedo - USNI News
2. Kilo-class submarine - People's Liberation Army Navy
----------

Navy Develops Torpedo Killing Torpedo - USNI News

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Martian2

*"Casic CM-708UNA is China’s first known submarine-launched cruise missile"*

Photo Gallery: China Defense Close-Up | Aviation Week

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zarvan

Martian2 said:


> *Type 041 Yuan SSK can carry Yu-4, Yu-3, and Yu-6 torpedoes*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"PLA Navy crew loads a Yu-3 ASuW torpedo into the tube of a Type 039 submarine. (Source: Chinese Internet)"_
> 
> The Type 041 Yuan SSK can carry the following weapons.[1]
> 
> a. YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles
> b. Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive-homing torpedoes
> c. Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes
> d. Yu-6 wake-homing torpedoes. Yu-6 can also be wire-guided.[2]
> e. mines [2]
> 
> ----------
> Citations.
> 
> 1. China's new Yuan-class sub seen preparing for sea trials - IHS Jane's 360
> "Uncorroborated Chinese sources have suggested that the new variant displaces about 3,500 tons compared to about 3,000 tons for earlier Type 041s. This could indicate that the new variant has more weapons - IHS Jane's Fighting Ships states that the existing variants are armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes. Yu-6 wake-homing torpedoes may also be carried."
> 
> 2. Type 041 | Deagel
> "The 4,000-ton Type 041 is equipped with six 533mm torpedo tubes at the bow which can launch Yu-6 wire-guided torpedoes, YJ-82 anti-ship missiles and mines."


We need to sign contract of supply of these soon

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## IND151

Interesting thread...............


----------



## cnleio

U knew what i mean here ... 
















Compared with U.S sub's Non-hull penetrating electro-optic mast

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

A Chinese submarine in the South China Sea in August last year. (File photo/CNS)

Beijing has revealed a version of the Type 093 midget submarine, known as the 093T, suggesting that more vessels in this class may be produced, reports news website Cankao Xiaoxi.

The 093B midget submarine reportedly has a vertical launch system that can launch 16 missiles, including the supersonic anti-ship YJ-18 and the DH-10 cruise missile.

Such a submarine can carry up to nine special ops members and is ideal for covert transportation and surprise attack. It can also launch laser-guided missiles or sneak combat divers into military ports to perform recon or destroy high-value targets such as aircraft carriers or nuclear submarines.

The United States was developing a midget version of its Ohio-class submarines but reportedly stopped development after a fire in 2008. The submarines used a dry-deck shelter system which allows the midget submarine to dock completely inside of its larger cousin. The 093T submarine adapts a wet-deck shelter system, which means only two thirds of the submarine are secured to the mother submarine and the rest is exposed to water.

PLA expands its Type 093 midget submarine line｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com


----------



## masud

i think this class of submarin is good for bangladesh navy. hope bd will buy some advance pla submarin.........


----------



## slng

Midget, another downplay by stupid article.

Hopefully one day the time 'they' realize, it would be a hell dragon flying on top their streets

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Cheetah786

A computer-generated image of a Chinese nuclear-powered submarine (SSN) has recently appeared on both news and social media websites. It illustrates a variant of the Type 093/Shang-class SSN carrying a docking hangar for a special forces swimmer delivery vehicle (SDV).

The accompanying text indicates the hangar can accommodate only about 2/3 of the length of the SDV (which it compares with the US Mk VIII SDV) and so remains flooded when the vehicle is docked. Consequently, as transfer of personnel to the SDV cannot easily be achieved with the submarine dived, the graphic shows SF personnel being transferred to the submarine by helicopter. The article refers to this as a wet-deck system and the SSN variant as a Type 093T.

The illustration also shows four panels on the side of the submarine that appear to represent sonar flank arrays and also a deployment tube above the upper rudder that would be used for streaming a towed array, as in Russian submarines.

The accompanying text also highlights that a six-bladed conventional propeller is illustrated rather than one with seven blades, which it states is fitted to the Type 093 and 093A, or the shrouded propulsor, which it claims is fitted to the Type 093B.

The explanation given is that the Type 093T is designed to operate in coastal waters where there is likely to be a high level of fishing vessel activity, and ingested trawl wires are easier to clear from a conventional propeller than a propulsor. It also states that the seven-bladed propellers were too thin and susceptible to damage.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore

*Although not nearly as "shocking" as the recent photo release of the PLAAF's J-20 stealth fighter, the first definitive photos of the latest Type 041 (NATO designation: Yuan) class diesel-powered submarines (SSK) nevertheless shed light on another critical asset of the PLA's modernization efforts.




While the exact new features of these 2 SSKs remain predictably shrouded in secrecy, some PLA enthusiasts have speculated that the new SSKs will include new sonar and surveillance systems, some have even speculated that the newest models will be capable of vertically launching cruise missiles from their lengthened sails - the most noticeable new feature of the latest 2 Yuan Class SSKs being constructed in Wuhan. It is also widely believed that the Yuan Class SSKs include air-independent propulsion systems on board (as subtly implied by a PLA Daily article dated 23 Oct 2009), allowing for quieter patrols of longer endurance.
Chinese PLAN Latest Type 041Class Yuan Diesel-Electric Submarines SSK - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS*


----------



## Kompromat

Manticore said:


> *Although not nearly as "shocking" as the recent photo release of the PLAAF's J-20 stealth fighter, the first definitive photos of the latest Type 041 (NATO designation: Yuan) class diesel-powered submarines (SSK) nevertheless shed light on another critical asset of the PLA's modernization efforts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the exact new features of these 2 SSKs remain predictably shrouded in secrecy, some PLA enthusiasts have speculated that the new SSKs will include new sonar and surveillance systems, some have even speculated that the newest models will be capable of vertically launching cruise missiles from their lengthened sails - the most noticeable new feature of the latest 2 Yuan Class SSKs being constructed in Wuhan. It is also widely believed that the Yuan Class SSKs include air-independent propulsion systems on board (as subtly implied by a PLA Daily article dated 23 Oct 2009), allowing for quieter patrols of longer endurance.*



Isn't this Type-95?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shotgunner51

Horus said:


> Isn't this Type-95?



I think that's 092 SSBN, not latest sub that's why clear photo is available on internet.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AsianLion

interesting..

what are the best chinese submarine in conventional attack?

what are the best in nuclear and ballistic missile attack ?


----------



## xuxu1457

AsianUnion said:


> interesting..
> 
> what are the best chinese submarine in conventional attack?
> 
> what are the best in nuclear and ballistic missile attack ?


The best chinese submarine in conventional attack will be 039C or 041AIP submarine




the best in nuclear attack in Service is 093(6 in service), all 6 old 091 are all retired, and next generation is 095,2 in construction
093




the best in nuclear ballistic missile in Service is 094（4~6 in active）, and 2~4 092 in active, and next generation 096, at least 2 in construction or 1 in active

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Beast

xuxu1457 said:


> The best chinese submarine in conventional attack will be 039C or 041AIP submarine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the best in nuclear attack in Service is 093(6 in service), all 6 old 091 are all retired, and next generation is 095,2 in construction
> 093
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the best in nuclear ballistic missile in Service is 094（4~6 in active）, and 2~4 092 in active, and next generation 096, at least 2 in construction or 1 in active


There are at least 4 type 093 SSN . 3 spotted together in recently. Estimate is 6 of them currently.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AsianLion

hk299792458 said:


> Amateur video on the transport of the 9th Type 039B SSK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henri K.





cirr said:


> 039B v2.0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coming up next：039C




Thats what Pakistan is buying ... the largest purchase ever for pakistan and largest sale ever for China...Type 41 / Type 39B/C


----------



## Hindustani78

China to commission 3 nuclear submarines | Zee News
Last Updated: Friday, April 3, 2015 - 17:02

Beijing: China would soon commission three indigenously-built advance nuclear-powered attack submarines having a vertical launcher capable of delivering its latest supersonic anti-ship missiles, state media reported on Friday.


China Central Television (CCTV) showed a satellite picture earlier this week of three submarines anchored at an unidentified port, and reported that the vessels were China's most advanced Type-093G nuclear-powered attack submarines, just completed by a Chinese shipyard and awaiting delivery.

With a teardrop hull, the submarine is longer than its predecessor, the Type-093, and has a vertical launching system, China Daily reported.

Another article carried by the People's Liberation Army Navy's website said the Type-093G's wing-shaped cross-section is designed to improve speed and mobility as well as reduce noise, and that the vertical launcher is capable of delivering the country's latest YJ-18 supersonic anti-ship missiles.

The Type-093G is reported to be an upgraded version of Type-093, China's second-generation nuclear-powered attack submarine, which has entered active service.

The strategic force of the PLA Navy now has about four nuclear-powered Type-094 ballistic missile submarines, up to six Type-093 nuclear-powered attack submarines and about three old Type-091, CCTV quoted foreign media reports as saying.

PTI


----------



## SuperSubrayan

Impressive growth by China . . . All is not well in India ! Need to catch up


----------



## Manticore

India Today - December 4, 2014

Four decades after the 1971 India-Pakistan war, India's intelligence agencies are once again scanning a stretch of coastline in southern Bangladesh. Cox's Bazar was rocketed and strafed by INS Vikrant's fighter aircraft to cut off the enemy's retreat into the Bay of Bengal. Today, 43 years later, it sets the stage for China's dramatic entry into India's eastern seaboard.

Assessments from the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and naval intelligence say the Bangladesh Navy will station two ex-Chinese Ming-class submarines on bases that are less than 1,000 km away from Visakhapatnam, home to the Indian Navy's nuclear powered submarine fleet and the Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO) missile test ranges at Balasore.

The developments on India's Arabian Sea flank are equally ominous. Intelligence officials say that over the next decade, China will help Pakistan field submarines with the ability to launch nuclear-tipped missiles from sea. Submarines, analysts say, are China's instrument of choice to not just challenge the Indian Navy's strategy of sea domination but also to undermine India's second-strike capability. These developments have been accompanied by a flurry of Chinese submarine appearances in the Indian Ocean this year-Beijing sent two nuclear submarines and a conventional submarine. Two of them made port calls in Colombo, triggering concern in New Delhi.

Toehold in the Bay

"No one interested in geopolitics can afford to ignore the Bay of Bengal any longer," geopolitical analyst Robert Kaplan wrote in a seminal essay in Stratfor in November. "This is the newold centre of the world, joining the two demographic immensities of the Indian subcontinent and East Asia." For India, the Bay of Bengal is the launch pad for a 'Look East' policy that has received renewed attention under Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The Indian Navy is enhancing force levels at its Visakhapatnam naval base even as it has begun building a secret base for a proposed fleet of nuclearpowered submarines at Rambilli, south of Visakhapatnam. Equipped with the 700-km range B05 submarine launched missiles, the Arihant-class submarines will have to patrol closer to the shores of a potential adversary. But equipped with the 3,500-km range K-4 missiles currently being developed by the DRDO, the Arihant and her sister submarines can cover both Pakistan and China with nuclear-tipped missiles from within the Bay of Bengal, providing the "robust second-strike capability" as stated in India's nuclear doctrine.

Inputs suggest Bangladesh has acquired land and fenced locations at the Kutubdia Channel near Cox's Bazar and the Rabnabad Channel near West Bengal. Kutubdia, intelligence officials say, is likely to feature enclosed concrete 'pens' to hide submarines. The possibility of Chinese submarines using this base provides a fresh equation to the strategic calculus.

"Our submarines become susceptible to tracking from the time they leave harbour," says veteran submariner and former Southern Naval Command chief vice-admiral K.N. Sushil (retired). "But a far more worrying strategy is China's ability to be able to threaten our assured second-strike capability. That effectively tips the deterrence balance."

West Coast Worries

Of greater long-term worry to Indian analysts is a strategic submarine project China finalised with Pakistan in 2010. Intelligence sources say this three-part programme will transform the Pakistan Navy into a strategic force capable of launching a sea-based nuclear weapons strike. Pakistan will build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi. Intelligence sources believe the S-30 submarines are based on the Chinese Qing class submarines-3,000-tonne conventional submarines which can launch three 1,500-km range nuclear-tipped cruise missiles from its conning tower. A Very Low Frequency (VLF) station at Turbat, in southern Balochistan, will communicate with these submerged strategic submarines. The Project S-26 and S-30 submarines will augment Pakistan's fleet of five French-built submarines, enhance their ability to challenge the Indian Navy's aircraft carrier battle groups and carry a stealthy nuclear deterrent. "Submarines are highly effective force multipliers because they tie down large numbers of naval forces," says a senior naval official.

Steel sharks on silk route

Speaking in Indonesia's Parliament last October, Chinese President Xi Jinping articulated a "21st century Maritime Silk Road". His vision calls for investments in port facilities across south and south-east Asia to complement a north Asian route. This year, the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) put steel into Xi's vision. In February, a Shangclass nuclear-powered attack submarine made China's first declared deployment in the Indian Ocean. This was followed by port calls made by a Han-class submarine in Colombo to coincide with a state visit by President Xi and a visit by a Song-class conventional submarine in November.

China's heightened activity in the Indian Ocean region is underscored by investments in a new port in Gwadar at the mouth of the Strait of Hormuz, Hambantota port in Sri Lanka, a container facility in Chittagong and Kyaukpyu port in Myanmar. "Such developments have sharpened China's geopolitical rivalry with India, which enjoys an immense geographic advantage in the Indian Ocean," says Brahma Chellaney of the Centre for Policy Research. "Aspects related to their (Chinese) deployment in international waters are part of securing their maritime interests," Navy chief Admiral Robin K. Dhowan told journalists in Delhi on December 3.

China's new military posture reflects the 'Malacca dilemma' faced by the world's largest oil importer. Close to 80 per cent of China's crude oil imports of 11 million barrels per day, the life blood of its economy, is shipped through the narrow Malacca Strait. Any disruption to this could threaten its economic growth. "Hence, China's economic interests in the Indian Ocean have now taken on an overt military dimension," says an intelligence official.

Naval intelligence officials who correctly predicted that China would use anti-piracy patrols as a pretext for deployments in the Indian Ocean feel vindicated. Their prognosis of this game of 'weiqi'-a game of Chinese chess which uses encirclement, is gloomy. "A full-scale Chinese deployment in the Indian Ocean is inevitable," an admiral told India Today.

"You can only watch it and prepare yourself for it." The preparations include acquisitions of long-range maritime patrol aircraft such as the US-made P8-I Poseidon, investment in anti-submarine warfare and inducting new submarines and helicopters to fill up critical deficiencies in force levels.

Measured Response

China's submarine thrust into South Asia coincides with Narendra Modi's renewed emphasis on securing India's perimeter. "India's response has to be nuanced, a mixture of coercion and largesse," says Jayadeva Ranade, a former RAW official and member of the National Security Advisory Board. While the Manmohan Singh-led UPA government scoffed at encirclement theories, the new Government is clearly concerned over the creeping Chinese presence.

National Security Adviser Ajit Doval voiced India's concerns at the 'Galle Dialogue' in Sri Lanka on December 1. He cited a 1971 United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) resolution mooted by Sri Lanka calling on the "great powers to halt further escalation and expansion of their military presence in the Indian Ocean".

India's defence diplomacy has been severely limited by its inability to offer military hardware to offset the Chinese presence. Over half the military hardware of Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are of Chinese origin. In 2008, India called off a plan to transfer the INS Vela to the Myanmar Navy when it discovered the vintage Russian-built submarine was past its service life.

When plans to transfer hardware materialise, they are too feeble to make a difference-a solitary helicopter such as the one gifted to Nepal by Modi in November and a small ex-Indian naval patrol craft gifted to Seychelles recently. Often, there is a demand for capabilities where India itself is deficient. Bangladeshi officials stumped Indian Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) officials last year when they asked India, and not China, to provide submarines. The Indian Navy is down to just 13 aging conventional submarines. The MEA suggested Bangladesh buy Russian submarines instead. Their efforts are yet to bear fruit. It is a gap China willingly fills.

Submarine game: How China is using undersea vessels to project power in India's neighbourhood : Special Report - India Today

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## black-hawk_101

I am sure that PN is lacking behind only by MONEY. Or else PN had deployed this:
11 Destroyers - Cruisers of 7000+ Tons
10 Corvettes - Light Frigates 3000+ Tons
15 FAC - OPV 1100+ Tons

5 SSBNs 7000+ Tons
11 Coastal Submarines 1100-1500 Tons
5-7 SSG-Navy Submarines 110-210+ Tons

All will be multi role.


----------



## Indian Jatt

xuxu1457 said:


> The best chinese submarine in conventional attack will be 039C or 041AIP submarine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the best in nuclear attack in Service is 093(6 in service), all 6 old 091 are all retired, and next generation is 095,2 in construction
> 093
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the best in nuclear ballistic missile in Service is 094（4~6 in active）, and 2~4 092 in active, and next generation 096, at least 2 in construction or 1 in active


its so cool.....looks beautiful and dangerous too


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Víðarr said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have nothing to validate that claim right?



The LA class belongs to the 1970s technology, nothing outrageous here from my claim.

From our military experts, since no Cold War SSN can shoot the LACM.

我093G核潜艇威胁大型战舰?可加装对陆巡航导弹--军事--人民网


----------



## Víðarr

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The LA class belongs to the 1970s technology, nothing outrageous here from my claim.
> 
> From our military experts, since no Cold War SSN can shoot the LACM.
> 
> 我093G核潜艇威胁大型战舰?可加装对陆巡航导弹--军事--人民网



Two things.

1. The LA's have been consistently upgraded. The original design may be from the 1970s, the original B-52 and H-6 are from an earlier time period, how do the modern ones compare? Modern LA class subs, the Improved LA, have the same VLS and LACM capabilities as the Type 093G

2. The source you provided does nothing to address the claim you made. In fact, quoting Yin Zhuo, it only mentions that the vertical launching system of the Type 093G is superior to the Oscar class, and while I agree with that assessment, his thoughts still don't provide any evidence, just his opinion.

_Military expert Yin Zhuo, said during an interview with CCTV, China and the world nuclear submarine nuclear submarine design standards generally flat. The picture shows 093G submarine installed vertical launch system can achieve omnidirectional attack, but also more advanced than Russia's "Oscar" class nuclear submarine launch system._

我093G核潜艇威胁大型战舰?可加装对陆巡航导弹--军事--人民网 - Yes, I can read it.

A submarine is more than a VLS. Combat systems, munitions, propulsion, internal and external sensors, internal and external signature suppression systems. How do those compare with the LA class SSN and the Oscar Class SSGN? These can't be peer-to-peer rivals to the Oscar and LA without addressing the rest of the factors. 

Also, the Oscar and LA aren't good benchmarks, considering both were supplanted by the Oscar II and Improved LA. The first LA came about in 1976. The first Improved LA in 1988. The source mentions LA and Oscar, not Oscar II and Improved LA. Not the best benchmark.

Finally, there are 3 different LA variants, all with different capabilities. Some have VLS, some incorporate tech found on the Virginia's, all have been upgraded throughout the years.

List of Los Angeles-class submarines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You said;

_This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.
_
But only validated this with a VLS. Now wheres the rest of the comparison?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Víðarr said:


> Two things.
> 
> 1. The LA's have been consistently upgraded. The original design may be from the 1970s, the original B-52 and H-6 are from an earlier time period, how do the modern ones compare?
> 
> 2. The source you provided does nothing to address the claim you made. In fact, quoting Yin Zhuo, it only mentions that the vertical launching system of the Type 093g is superior to the Oscar class, and while I agree with that assessment, his thoughts still don't provide any evidence, just his opinion.
> 
> _Military expert Yin Zhuo, said during an interview with CCTV, China and the world nuclear submarine nuclear submarine design standards generally flat. The picture shows 093G submarine installed vertical launch system can achieve omnidirectional attack, but also more advanced than Russia's "Oscar" class nuclear submarine launch system._
> 
> 我093G核潜艇威胁大型战舰?可加装对陆巡航导弹--军事--人民网
> 
> A submarine is more than a VLS. COmbat systems, munitions, propulsion, internal and external sensors, internal and external signature supression systems. How do those compare with the LA class SSN and the Oscar Class LA.
> 
> Also, the Oscar and LA aren't good benchmarks, considering both were supplanted by the Oscar II and Improved LA. The first LA came about in 1976. The first Improved LA in 1988.
> 
> Finally, there are 3 different LA variants, all with different capabilities. Some have VLS, some incorporate tech found on the Virginia's, all have been upgraded throughout the years.
> 
> List of Los Angeles-class submarines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You said;
> 
> _This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.
> _
> But only validated this with a VLS. Now wheres the rest of the comparison?



Yeah, the late LA class has added with the VLS, considered that the Seawolf/Virginia class are pretty numbered in deployment.

Our Type 093G was mentioned to have a newly designed nuclear reactor that allows the boat to sail in a higher speed with much less noise.

BTW, it is like the evolution from the Type 052B to the Type 052D, which is a huge gap.

The electronics and sensors are also much more evolved than their Cold War counterparts, this is the general common sense, no need to be a genius to figure it out.


----------



## Víðarr

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> no need to be a genius to figure it out.



The Office of Naval Intelligence would disagree with you. It's actually rather difficult to figure out, hence a lack of quality sources. How does an observer learn what's on the inside? 

It can be assumed that an upgrade has occurred over earlier blocks, but we can't be sure of that.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yeah, the late LA class has added with the VLS, considered that the Seawolf/Virginia class are pretty numbered in deployment.



And the Type 093 isn't? Right now there are 3 Sea Wolfs, 11 Virginia's active (4 block I, 6 block II and one block III) -19 more are being procured with 4 being actively constructed. 31 LA Class boats armed with VLS systems are currently active.

List of Los Angeles-class submarines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Virginia-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many 093G's are active? Far less.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Our Type 093G was mentioned to have a newly designed nuclear reactor that allows the boat to sail in a higher speed with much less noise.



A lot more than that to sub quieting.

All in all, it's a good start. But let's avoid the comparisons, and I'm not saying the 093G is bad, just your claim isn't supportable, to the Virginia and Seawolfs unless we can provide specific points of comparison and back them up with quality sources.

Which we can't

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Víðarr said:


> And the Type 093 isn't? Right now there are 3 Sea Wolfs, 11 Virginia's active (4 block I, 6 block II and one block III) -19 more are being procured with 4 being actively constructed. 31 LA Class boats armed with VLS systems are currently active.
> 
> List of Los Angeles-class submarines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Virginia-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> How many 093G's are active? Far less.



They have deliberately showed 3 boats after the completion, so maybe 6-10 in planning.

I am pretty sure that the Type 095 will be in the parallel development.

BTW, when we add another shipyard for the construction of the SSN, we can easily add another 20-30 nuclear subs within a decade.


----------



## Zarvan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, the Type 093G was mentioned to trail against the Virginia class.
> 
> As for the Seawolf class, we have to put the Type 095 as the countermeasure.
> 
> We are now producing the super titanium that allow the sub to dive under 600 meters, and it is obviously aimed at the Seawolf class.
> 
> It is up to you to believe it or not.
> 
> China says type 095 nuclear submarine is better than US submarines | China Daily Mail


What I have read is your Type 95 is equal to virginia class not Type 93G Please explain


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Zarvan said:


> What I have read is your Type 95 is equal to virginia class not Type 93G Please explain



The Type 095 is a heavy class SSN (12000 tons) to counter against the Seawolf class.

The Type 093G is a medium class SSN (8000 tons) to match against the Virginia class.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zarvan

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 095 is a heavy class SSN (12000 tons) to counter against the Seawolf class.
> 
> The Type 093G is a medium class SSN (8000 tons) to match against the Virginia class.


And How about Type 96


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Zarvan said:


> And How about Type 96



The Type 096 is a SSBN, which is designed to carry the SLBMs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarvan

Reuters/China Daily

China, Military, Navy, Nuclear
Chinese shipbuilders have completed three advanced nuclear-propelled submarines that can fire the latest vertically launched anti-ship missiles, local media reported.

Satellite pictures broadcast last week by China Central Television showed three submarines anchored at an unidentified port, China Daily reported. The vessels were reported to be Type-093G submarines just completed by a shipyard and ready to be delivered to the Navy of the People’s Liberation Army.

*Type-093G is an advanced version of Type-093, China’s second-generation nuclear-powered attack submarines. Compared to the relatively short 110-m regular variant, the Type-093G has a longer hull to make room for a vertical launch system, the report said.*

*The launchers are designed to fire YJ-18, the vertically launched version of China’s YJ-12 supersonic anti-ship missile, according to the Navy’s website. The advanced missile can reportedly carry a 300-kilogram warhead to a range over 200 kilometers and is capable of performing maneuvers at speeds of up to Mach 3 just before hitting its target.*

The Type-093G submarine also has improved speed and mobility, and reduced noise compared to the regular version, the website said.

PLA’s Navy is believed to have up to six Type-093 submarines currently in service in addition to three older Type-091s. A new Type-095 submarine is currently in development. China also reportedly has four Type-094 ballistic missile submarines carrying JL-1 or JL-2 nuclear missiles.



Read more


China outpaces America in sub numbers – US admiral


Earlier in February, US Vice Admiral Joseph Mulloy said China had surpassed the US in the total number of submarines.

_“They may not be the same quality, but their submarine forces are growing at a tremendous rate. They now have more diesel and nuclear attack submarines than we have,”_ the admiral told a House subcommittee.

_“They are producing some fairly amazing submarines and they are actually deploying them,”_ he added, explaining the Chinese vessels are being sent on longer missions to regions located further from China.

The assessment sparked fears in the US that China would be able to strike American territory from its submarines deployed in the Pacific. However, the fears may be exaggerated, since JL-2, which according to some estimates has enough range to reach Alaska, Hawaii or the US military bases in Guam, is believed to have been in service since at least 2012.

Chinese naval development was addressed in the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission’s annual report to Congress in December last year, Military.com reported. Among other issues the commission commented on Chinese-Russian military development cooperation and a joint deal to build new attack submarines.

_“China is pursuing joint-design and production of four to six Russian advanced diesel-electric attack submarines containing Russia’s latest submarine sonar, propulsion, and quieting technology,”_ the commission said.

_“The deal would improve the PLA Navy’s capabilities and assist China’s development of quiet submarines, thus complicating future US efforts to track and counter the PLA submarines,”_ it added.
China reportedly completes 3 advanced nuclear attack subs — RT News

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Indus Falcon

Good news!!! Thanks @Zarvan

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cirr



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## My-Analogous

Zarvan said:


> Reuters/China Daily
> 
> China, Military, Navy, Nuclear
> Chinese shipbuilders have completed three advanced nuclear-propelled submarines that can fire the latest vertically launched anti-ship missiles, local media reported.
> 
> Satellite pictures broadcast last week by China Central Television showed three submarines anchored at an unidentified port, China Daily reported. The vessels were reported to be Type-093G submarines just completed by a shipyard and ready to be delivered to the Navy of the People’s Liberation Army.
> 
> *Type-093G is an advanced version of Type-093, China’s second-generation nuclear-powered attack submarines. Compared to the relatively short 110-m regular variant, the Type-093G has a longer hull to make room for a vertical launch system, the report said.*
> 
> *The launchers are designed to fire YJ-18, the vertically launched version of China’s YJ-12 supersonic anti-ship missile, according to the Navy’s website. The advanced missile can reportedly carry a 300-kilogram warhead to a range over 200 kilometers and is capable of performing maneuvers at speeds of up to Mach 3 just before hitting its target.*
> 
> The Type-093G submarine also has improved speed and mobility, and reduced noise compared to the regular version, the website said.
> 
> PLA’s Navy is believed to have up to six Type-093 submarines currently in service in addition to three older Type-091s. A new Type-095 submarine is currently in development. China also reportedly has four Type-094 ballistic missile submarines carrying JL-1 or JL-2 nuclear missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more
> 
> 
> China outpaces America in sub numbers – US admiral
> 
> 
> Earlier in February, US Vice Admiral Joseph Mulloy said China had surpassed the US in the total number of submarines.
> 
> _“They may not be the same quality, but their submarine forces are growing at a tremendous rate. They now have more diesel and nuclear attack submarines than we have,”_ the admiral told a House subcommittee.
> 
> _“They are producing some fairly amazing submarines and they are actually deploying them,”_ he added, explaining the Chinese vessels are being sent on longer missions to regions located further from China.
> 
> The assessment sparked fears in the US that China would be able to strike American territory from its submarines deployed in the Pacific. However, the fears may be exaggerated, since JL-2, which according to some estimates has enough range to reach Alaska, Hawaii or the US military bases in Guam, is believed to have been in service since at least 2012.
> 
> Chinese naval development was addressed in the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission’s annual report to Congress in December last year, Military.com reported. Among other issues the commission commented on Chinese-Russian military development cooperation and a joint deal to build new attack submarines.
> 
> _“China is pursuing joint-design and production of four to six Russian advanced diesel-electric attack submarines containing Russia’s latest submarine sonar, propulsion, and quieting technology,”_ the commission said.
> 
> _“The deal would improve the PLA Navy’s capabilities and assist China’s development of quiet submarines, thus complicating future US efforts to track and counter the PLA submarines,”_ it added.
> China reportedly completes 3 advanced nuclear attack subs — RT News



Pakistan should asked China to lease one nuclear sub so that by the time our sub is ready, we have a well train staff to handle it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sonicboom

Acoustic Quietness of Chinese Submarines 

Figure 1 and Figure 2, which are taken from the August 2009 ONI report, show the acoustic 
quietness of Chinese nuclear- and non-nuclear-powered submarines, respectively, relative to that 
of Russian nuclear- and non-nuclear-powered submarines. The downward slope of the arrow in 
each figure indicates the increasingly lower noise levels (i.e., increasing acoustic quietness) of the 
submarine designs shown. In general, quieter submarines are more difficult for opposing forces to 
detect and counter. The green-yellow-red color spectrum on the arrow in each figure might be 
interpreted as a rough indication of the relative difficulty that a navy with capable antisubmarine 
warfare forces (such as the U.S. Navy) might have in detecting and countering these submarines: 
Green might indicate submarines that would be relatively easy for such a navy to detect and 
counter, yellow might indicate submarines that would be less easy for such a navy to detect and 
counter, and red might indicate submarines that would be more difficult for such a navy to detect 
and counter. 


*Figure 1:*






*Figure 2:*





For detailed information, please refer to the following article:
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33153.pdf


----------



## UKBengali

I suppose this is the model that is supposed to be as quiet as the improved Los Angeles class but with better sonar and electronics.

Type-95 SSN should be better but unlikely to be comparable to the Virginia class.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> I suppose this is the model that is supposed to be as quiet as the improved Los Angeles class but with better sonar and electronics.
> 
> Type-95 SSN should be better but unlikely to be comparable to the Virginia class.



The Type 095 is huge, most likely about 12000 tons submerged, so it is more likely aimed at the Seawolf class.

While the Type 093G is also reported being bigger than both regular Type 093 and LA class.

And Russia Today is also praising the Type 093G and calling it advanced, so it is definitely China's peer against the Virginia class.

China reportedly completes 3 advanced nuclear attack subs — RT News

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Manticore

sonicboom said:


> Acoustic Quietness of Chinese Submarines
> 
> Figure 1 and Figure 2, which are taken from the August 2009 ONI report, show the acoustic
> quietness of Chinese nuclear- and non-nuclear-powered submarines, respectively, relative to that
> of Russian nuclear- and non-nuclear-powered submarines. The downward slope of the arrow in
> each figure indicates the increasingly lower noise levels (i.e., increasing acoustic quietness) of the
> submarine designs shown. In general, quieter submarines are more difficult for opposing forces to
> detect and counter. The green-yellow-red color spectrum on the arrow in each figure might be
> interpreted as a rough indication of the relative difficulty that a navy with capable antisubmarine
> warfare forces (such as the U.S. Navy) might have in detecting and countering these submarines:
> Green might indicate submarines that would be relatively easy for such a navy to detect and
> counter, yellow might indicate submarines that would be less easy for such a navy to detect and
> counter, and red might indicate submarines that would be more difficult for such a navy to detect
> and counter.
> 
> 
> *Figure 1:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Figure 2:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For detailed information, please refer to the following article:
> https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33153.pdf


Chinese Submarines - are they noisy? | Page 2


----------



## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 095 is huge, most likely about 12000 tons submerged, so it is more likely aimed at the Seawolf class.
> 
> While the Type 093G is also reported being bigger than both regular Type 093 and LA class.
> 
> And Russia Today is also praising the Type 093G and calling it advanced, so it is definitely China's peer against the Virginia class.
> 
> China reportedly completes 3 advanced nuclear attack subs — RT News




Do you think Type-95 can actually match the best from US/Russia yet?

I think that Type-95 will be in between Los Angeles and Seawolf in quietness but comparable in sonar and electronics though.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Do you think Type-95 can actually match the best from US/Russia yet?
> 
> I think that Type-95 will be in between Los Angeles and Seawolf in quietness but comparable in sonar and electronics though.



Why not? To reduce the noise level all you need to have an advanced nuclear reactor.

China is currently ahead in this domain.

China building nuclear power plant with 4th-generation features - China.org.cn

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Manticore

Víðarr said:


> @Manticore is there a standard of research requirement? Or are we just passing off speculation as fact? It's an interesting discussion, but ultimately with systems like submarines, we actually don't know enough to make a comparison. At what point do we stop the speculation and only accept fact?


I dont think there is a researcher or TT / professional tag holder in this thread which you can criticize. Other members speculate and their point of views are to be taken as of an enthusiast but with mutual respect.
We dont know most of the details of any military hardware.Going by this token, there is no use of all the defence forums.. yet members do join in


----------



## Manticore

@SvenSvensonov
Chinese Submarines - are they noisy? | Page 2
you are welcome here as well


----------



## Martian2

*No proof Chinese submarines are noisier than US or Russian submarines*

The claim of China having noisy submarines is pure speculation.

I have asked repeatedly: name the design flaw that you are claiming leads to noisy Chinese submarines.

I always hear silence.

Same asymmetric seven-bladed propeller. Same single shaft. Same double-hull design. Same tear-drop shape. Same super-computer modeling. Same anechoic tiles. Same CNC five-axis machine tool construction.

In conclusion, the claim of noisy Chinese submarines is nonsense. It's a lie.
----------

Let me give you an analogy. Years ago, I claimed the Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter was stealthier than the Russian T-50/Pak Fa.

I pointed to two obvious stealth flaws on the Russian T-50/Pak Fa.

1. Russian T-50/Pak Fa lacked "S" ducts.
2. Russian T-50/Pak Fa has exposed metallic engine pods that reflect radar.

This is how you make a claim. You must point to an important design flaw.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Do you think Type-95 can actually match the best from US/Russia yet?
> 
> I think that Type-95 will be in between Los Angeles and Seawolf in quietness but comparable in sonar and electronics though.



I think the Type 095 belongs to the same category with the Seawolf/Yasen class, since they all belong to the heavy class SSN that displaces over 10000 tons.

While the Type 093G belongs the same category with the Virginia/Astute class, since they all belong to the medium class SSN that displaces between 7000-8000 tons.

Being bigger, you would have the advantage of carrying a bigger weapon bay and more endurance during the undergoing mission.



Martian2 said:


> Same asymmetric seven-bladed propeller. Same single shaft. Same double-hull design. Same tear-drop shape. Same super-computer modeling. Same anechoic tiles. Same CNC five-axis machine tool construction.



China's new subs are all using the mixture of the single-hull and double-hull.

The part of the nuclear reactor will be covered by the double-hull which is more efficient to reduce the noise of the reactor.

The part of the weapon bay will be covered by the single-hull which could leave bigger room to store more weapons.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Martian2

*We have a problem. No one can identify a serious Chinese submarine design flaw.*

I've been asking the same question for years.

Name a serious Chinese submarine design flaw.

Always nothing!

Stop claiming Chinese submarines are more noisy than American or Russian subs. There is no rational basis for this untrue claim.

No one claims Chinese ICBMs are inferior to American ICBMs. Their performance is similar.

No one claims to be able to prove the F-35 is superior to the Shenyang J-31. In fact, the Shenyang J-31 is a clean design. The F-35 has non-stealthy thick wing-roots and a bulging underside.

Looking at other Chinese state-of-the-art weapons, we see either the same performance or superior design in the case of the Shenyang J-31 vs. the F-35.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Indus Falcon

Without proper sonar, or proper underwater acoustic equipment a lot of experts (forget armchair generals / admirals) would be at a loss to explain which is better or quieter. Unfortunately bias and superiority complex sometimes gets the better of them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Falcon

*China's new submarines could create problems for the US Navy*

Jeremy Bender
Apr. 7, 2015
Beijing is commissioning an upgraded version of a nuclear attack submarine that would be capable of carrying supersonic missiles designed to take down enemy aircraft carriers, The Diplomat reported citing China Daily.

China is commissioning three upgraded Type-093 Shang-class nuclear-powered attack submarines. The new Type-093G "is reported to be an upgraded version of Type-093 … With a teardrop hull, the submarine is longer than its predecessor and has a vertical launching system," the China Daily reported.

The redesign of the submarine would allow it to move faster and more quietly than its previous iteration, the Chinese media reported. Crucially, the 093G model would also be outfitted with vertical launch tubes that would allow the submarine to be outfitted with the YJ-18 supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM).

The YJ-18 is designed to target enemy ships and battle groups with increased lethality and range. According to the Taiwan-based Want China Times, the YJ-18, when combined with aerial spotting and targeting from Chinese aircraft operating from an aircraft carrier, could hypothetically hit enemy ships almost 250 miles away.

China has only one aircraft carrier, a nearly 30-year-old Soviet-built vessel that has had its share of mechanical problems.

The YJ-18 is designed to carry a 660-pound warhead that would be capable of sinking a destroyer-sized ship, military aviation site Deagel reported. The missile is thought to be able to maneuver after being launched in order to attempt to avoid missile interceptors.

War On The Rocks noted that a missile with a range as wide as 250 miles could pose serious problems for the US Navy's Aegis Combat System. That distance is beyond the "engagement range" of aircraft carrier strike groups, leaving the vessels vulnerable to weapons operating at that distance.

This proliferation of long-range ASCMs is perhaps the single greatest military threat the US faces from China.

Expansion and deployment of ASCMs systems would allow China to build an aerial maritime strike force that could effectively control all of the maritime territory surrounding China. The Chinese military could quickly move against enemy vessels and Beijing would be able to counter the US's naval presence in the region if the two powers ever came in conflict.

However, these missiles would still do little or nothing to counter the US submarine fleet or overcome the US underwater superiority.

China's new submarines can carry the greatest threat to the US Navy - Business Insider


----------



## xuxu1457

网曝093型核潜艇稀有纪念章 透露98年已开工(图)|核潜艇|纪念币_凤凰军事
First 093 nuke submarine start building medals， we can know that first 093 nuke sub of China started to build at Dec 1998

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Indus Falcon

*PLA Developing Lithium-ion Powered Submarines*
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, June 1, 2015

China is developing submarines powered by a lithium-ion battery propulsion system as they offer higher energy density and longer dive times than old diesel submarines.

Chinese researchers see them as the "wave of the future," Andrew Erickson, a professor at the Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island was quoted as saying by Diplomat, Tokyo-based news magazine on May 28.

The PLA Navy is discussing putting lithium-ion batteries "on a new generation of conventional subs sometime between now and 2020, but there is no indicator as yet of the type of submarine that might be," Erickson added.

China is struggling to advance its submarine technology as it is lagging behind, when compared to west. The PLA's Type 095 nuclear submarine’s major structural weaknesses is the lack of propulsion engineering because most engines used in Chinese submarines are either based on imported foreign technology or built domestically under license.

The PLA needs submarines with reactors that are "efficient, long-lasting, reliable and quiet enough," Erickson said. He also added that it is the reason for China to equip them in their Song- and Yuan-class attack submarines.

Diesel submarines are stealthier than nuclear submarines because the former are specifically designed to minimize vibration and noise in order to evade sonar detection. However, China finds longer-lasting lithium-ion batteries could be the solution as it does not require submarines to come to the surface for recharging batteries.

The PLA Navy currently has five nuclear attack submarines, four nuclear ballistic missile submarines and 53 diesel attack submarines, the Pentagon's Office of Naval Intelligence said.



PLA Developing Lithium-ion Powered Submarines


----------



## Akasa

What could be under the blue roof? Thoughts? The blue roof is approximately 185 meters long.

This GE photo is that of Huludao, the construction site of Chinese nuclear submarines.






As shown in the following photos, the space is used as a submarine dry dock.

December 13, 2014





February 1, 2015

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> What could be under the blue roof? Thoughts? The blue roof is approximately 185 meters long.
> 
> This GE photo is that of Huludao, the construction site of Chinese nuclear submarines.
> 
> View attachment 237635
> 
> 
> As shown in the following photos, the space is used as a submarine dry dock.
> 
> December 13, 2014
> View attachment 237637
> 
> 
> February 1, 2015
> View attachment 237638



093B or 095.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Akasa

cirr said:


> 093B or 095.



Are the 093B and 095 the same boat?


----------



## Martian2

*China has 75 submarines.*

_The chart includes the fourth Type 094 Jin-class SSBN[1] and the three new Type 093G SSNs.[2]
Also, China had built one more Yuan SSK with AIP.[3]_






----------

References.

1. Source (IHS Jane's): US upgrades assessment of China's Type 094 SSBN fleet - IHS Jane's 360
"Meanwhile, an ONI report issued on 9 April stated that China has four Type 094s in service."

2. Source (Defense Industry Daily): New Hypersonic Vehicle Build X51 | Cyber RFP Redo | Canada Installs Oversight System >$100 Million Contracts
"[T]he PLAN also recently commissioning three new Type-093G nuclear-powered attack subs."

3. Source (The Diplomat): Why China’s Submarine Force Still Lags Behind | The Diplomat
"The bulk of China’s conventional sub armada consists of...13 Yuan-class (Type 039A) air independent-powered (AIP) attack submarines with an additional 20 Yuan-class vessels planned for production."
----------

Supplementary pictorial citation.

Huludao Shipyard has completed the construction of three Type- 093 submarine | Errymath





China's "Huludao Shipyard has completed the construction of three Type 093G nuclear-powered attack submarines" with a Vertical Launch System (VLS).

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## IR-TR

How many subs does China aspire to have?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Martian2

IR-TR said:


> How many subs does China aspire to have?


I think the US estimate is 100 total Chinese submarines in ten years. A rough estimate is:

10 more Yuans with AIP
1 Type 094 Jin SSBN (which is already near completion)
5 Type 095 SSNs
5 Type 096 Tang SSBNs
5 Type 097 SSNs
5 Type 098 SSBNs
----------

*China's upcoming Type 096 Tang and Type 098 SSBNs*

The next few years will be very exciting. We will see whether China's Type 096 Tang SSBN has a smooth aerodynamic streamlined shape (or retain a hump). Also, we will find out whether the Type 096 Tang SSBN carries 12, 18, or 24 SLBMs. Finally, we will learn whether the SLBMs are JL-2 (navalized DF-31 ICBM), JL-2A (navalized DF-31A ICBM), or JL-3 (navalized DF-41 ICBM).

By 2025, China will debut the Type 098 SSBN with 24 JL-3 10-MIRV SLBMs.

"May 5, 2015 - At a recent meeting in Ordos, Inner Mongolia, Tan Zuojun, vice governor of Liaoning Province and former general manager of China State Shipbuilding Corporation, said that development of China's fourth-generation nuclear submarines and other high-tech weapons had been completed."

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Martian2 said:


> *China has 75 submarines.*
> 
> _The chart includes the fourth Type 094 Jin-class SSBN[1] and the three new Type 093G SSNs.[2]
> Also, China had built one more Yuan SSK with AIP.[3]_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> References.
> 
> 1. Source (IHS Jane's): US upgrades assessment of China's Type 094 SSBN fleet - IHS Jane's 360
> "Meanwhile, an ONI report issued on 9 April stated that China has four Type 094s in service."
> 
> 2. Source (Defense Industry Daily): New Hypersonic Vehicle Build X51 | Cyber RFP Redo | Canada Installs Oversight System >$100 Million Contracts
> "[T]he PLAN also recently commissioning three new Type-093G nuclear-powered attack subs."
> 
> 3. Source (The Diplomat): Why China’s Submarine Force Still Lags Behind | The Diplomat
> "The bulk of China’s conventional sub armada consists of...13 Yuan-class (Type 039A) air independent-powered (AIP) attack submarines with an additional 20 Yuan-class vessels planned for production."
> ----------
> 
> Supplementary pictorial citation.
> 
> Huludao Shipyard has completed the construction of three Type- 093 submarine | Errymath
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's "Huludao Shipyard has completed the construction of three Type 093G nuclear-powered attack submarines" with a Vertical Launch System (VLS).



China will have eight Type 094 SSBNs by 2020.

While some reports suggested that China had already built five Type 094 SSBNs back in 2007-2010.

US upgrades assessment of China's Type 094 SSBN fleet - IHS Jane's 360

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

Martian2 said:


>



The 098 design looks amazing.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Deino

Martian2 said:


> ...
> 
> *China's upcoming Type 096 Tang and Type 098 SSBNs*
> 
> ...



Isn't the Type 098 not only a fan-art so far ???


----------



## XiaoYaoZi

Deino said:


> Isn't the Type 098 not only a fan-art so far ???


Yeah.


----------



## Martian2

Deino said:


> Isn't the Type 098 not only a fan-art so far ???


No. The design has been finalized. It's a real submarine. If you are asking whether the illustrated Type 098 is the official submarine design, that I don't know. However, we do expect the Type 098 to be fully hydro-dynamic without a "hump." Thus, the Type 098 illustration is the closest depiction available.

The other feature of the Type 098 illustration looks highly probable. China has already implemented a "shrouded propulsor" design on the upgraded Yu-7 torpedo (link: China's improved Yu-7 "shrouded propulsor" torpedo | Jane's). It is known that a shrouded propulsor/ducted fan design is economical for a nuclear submarine to justify its weight. The weight penalty from a shrouded propulsor/ducted fan design is negligible in the additional power requirement for a nuclear reactor to propel the additional weight across the ocean. This would not be the case for a diesel-electric.

Reread the quote in post #109.

"May 5, 2015 - At a recent meeting in Ordos, Inner Mongolia, Tan Zuojun, vice governor of Liaoning Province and former general manager of China State Shipbuilding Corporation, said that development of China's fourth-generation nuclear submarines and other high-tech weapons had been completed."

References:

GlobalTimes: Development of China's fourth-generation nuclear submarine completed - Global Times
Sputnik News: China Develops Fourth-Generation Nuclear Sub

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## XiaoYaoZi

Martian2 said:


> No. The design has been finalized. It's a real submarine. If you are asking whether the illustrated Type 098 is the official submarine design, that I don't know. However, we do expect the Type 098 to be fully hydro-dynamic without a "hump." Thus, the Type 098 illustration is the closest depiction available.
> 
> The other feature of the Type 098 illustration looks highly probable. China has already implemented a "shrouded propulsor" design on the upgraded Yu-7 torpedo (link: China's improved Yu-7 "shrouded propulsor" torpedo | Jane's). It is known that a shrouded propulsor/ducted fan design is economical for a nuclear submarine to justify its weight. The weight penalty from a shrouded propulsor/ducted fan design is negligible in the additional power requirement from a nuclear reactor to propel the additional weight across the ocean. This would not be the case for a diesel-electric.
> 
> Reread the quote in post #109.
> 
> "May 5, 2015 - At a recent meeting in Ordos, Inner Mongolia, Tan Zuojun, vice governor of Liaoning Province and former general manager of China State Shipbuilding Corporation, said that development of China's fourth-generation nuclear submarines and other high-tech weapons had been completed."
> 
> References:
> 
> GlobalTimes: Development of China's fourth-generation nuclear submarine completed - Global Times
> Sputnik News: China Develops Fourth-Generation Nuclear Sub


What TanZuojun said more likely is the 095 that was got the formal approval of project officially 2012, it wont take too short time from the begin of project to the launch of the first sub. The 093B may have used some techs that will be used in 095.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## XiaoYaoZi

The rim driven propeller(RDP), the ideal propeller of sub.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Martian2

*Yuan submarine "low-frequency passive flank array"*

The following is an excerpt of the full article regarding China's Yuan submarine at USNI News.

Essay: Inside the Design of China’s Yuan-class Submarine - USNI News

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## kungfugymnast

IR-TR said:


> How many subs does China aspire to have?



Enough for China to counter naval fleet of Japan & US. War nowadays are more on skirmishes or fight for disputed islands such as Diaoyu/Senkaku & Spratlys involving mostly naval and air force. The rule is winner gets the disputed island since they are not tied to any country officially.


----------



## mil-avia

Chinese Military Developing Supercavitating Supersonic Submarine for High-Speed Naval Warfare


----------



## -------

XiaoYaoZi said:


> The rim driven propeller(RDP), the ideal propeller of sub.



What makes you say so ?


----------



## XiaoYaoZi



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## j20blackdragon

The Pentagon's 2016 China Military Power Report confirms the existence of the Type 093G with VLS system.






JL-3 SLBM now confirmed by the Pentagon to be under development. JL-3 has never been mentioned before in past reports.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lcloo

Lastest SSK spotted launched in Wuhan.

Could this be the first of 039C? It has different figure from 039A Yuan and 039B spotted in late 2013. The difference is not that much from outside, the root of the sail is straight instead of curve as in 039B, so it could be an improved veraint of 039B.


----------



## 星海军事

lcloo said:


> Lastest SSK spotted launched in Wuhan.
> 
> Could this be the first of 039C? It has different figure from 039A Yuan and 039B spotted in late 2013. The difference is not that much from outside, the root of the sail is straight instead of curve as in 039B, so it could be an improved veraint of 039B.
> 
> View attachment 305728
> View attachment 305729
> View attachment 305730




Just an old one


----------



## lcloo

星海军事 said:


> Just an old one


You are right, it is 039A. So 039B (spotted since December 2013) evaluation is still on going?


----------



## lcloo

China's submarine detection system and AUV at 2000 metres beneath sea surface, defence against foreign intrusions.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## XiaoYaoZi

093A/093B?

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
3


----------



## Beast

XiaoYaoZi said:


> 093B


Small hump at the back of the tower con. VLS?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## cirr

Beast said:


> Small hump at the back of the tower con. VLS?



Sure. For the sub versions of the YJ-18 family of land attack cruise missile and anti-ship missile.

Three more Type 09IIIB to be inducted this year and next.

Also Type 095......

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 星海军事

XiaoYaoZi said:


> 093B



I think this is actually 093A

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hk299792458

星海军事 said:


> I think this is actually 093A



What's the difference with Type 09IIIB ?

Henri K.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cnleio

China developing sub-launch VLS

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## 星海军事

hk299792458 said:


> What's the difference with Type 09IIIB ?
> 
> Henri K.


I believe 093B is yet to be built.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> I believe 093B is yet to be built.



No, that's a Type 093B, and you can see the sloped joint between the conning tower and the hull.

Since the Type 093 and Type 093A don't possess this feature.

你是看超大石头花大神的爆料吧？他当年爆出的歼20堪称经典，但他对海军方面的资料就不怎么准了。他说002航母去年就动工，其实是今年动工，而09IIIB按照POP3的说法也早已服役。

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> No, that's a Type 093B, and you can see the sloped joint between the conning tower and the hull.
> 
> Since the Type 093 and Type 093A don't possess this feature.
> 
> 你是看超大石头花大神的爆料吧？他当年爆出的歼20堪称经典，但他对海军方面的资料就不怎么准了。他说002航母去年就动工，其实是今年动工，而09IIIB按照POP3的说法也早已服役。



Nope. If you are to claim that this is 093B, then how do you identify 093 and 093A?


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> Nope. If you are to claim that this is 093B, then how do you identify 093 and 093A?



The Type 093 is 407, while the Type 093A is 408. These variants show very little difference as they were merely experimental.

The Type 093B is entering into the mass production stage, and so far 6 boats will be deployed in total by the end of 2016.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 093 is 407, while the Type 093A is 408.



Where did you get this thought?



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 093B is entering into the mass production stage, and so far 6 boats will be deployed in total by the end of 2016.



That seems impossible as it takes more than three years for an SSN to finish outfitting and undergo sea trail in China.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> Where did you get this thought?



Those SSNs with little hump is the Type 09IIIB according to POP3, also confirmed by China's media.

Either the Type 09III and Type 09IIIA is 407 and 408 respectively, or simply the Type 09IIIA has been skipped, just like the Type 052A was skipped as well from the Type 052 to the Type 052B directly.

The new SSN with little hump is the Type 09IIIB, so stop arguing over an established fact.









星海军事 said:


> That seems impossible as it takes more than three years for a SSN to finish outfitting and undergo sea trail in China.



The Type 09IIIB already got 4 boats being deployed prior to 2016, so I am not surprised if they add 2 more in this year, just they add 2 Type 052D in every year.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Those SSNs with little hump is the Type 09IIIB according to POP3, also confirmed by China's media.
> 
> Either the Type 09III and Type 09IIIA is 407 and 408 respectively, or simply the Type 09IIIA has been skipped, just like the Type 052A was skipped as well from the Type 052 to the Type 052B directly.
> 
> The new SSN with little hump is the Type 09IIIB, so stop arguing over an established fact.
> 
> View attachment 312449
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Type 09IIIB already got 4 boats being deployed prior to 2016, so I am not surprised if they add 2 more in this year, just they add 2 Type 052D in every year.


That is right, 408 is 093A










This satellite photo last year showed the new sub on the left was wider than the 093 docked next to it





This new sub (093B) also has new device for communications under water

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> That is right, 408 is 093A
> View attachment 312456
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 312457
> 
> This satellite photo last year showed the new sub on the left was wider than the 093 docked next to it
> 
> View attachment 312458
> 
> This new sub (093B) also has new device for communications under water



So by the end of this year, basically China will have:

Type 091G - 3
Type 092G - 1

Type 093 - 1
Type 093A - 1
Type 093B - 6

Type 094 - 2
Type 094A - 2
Type 094B - 2

Type 095 - ???
Type 096 - ???


----------



## Tiqiu

There are rumours that 2 093C(or 095) are undergoing if not already complete. They can carry df21d and 26.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> There are rumours that 2 093C(or 095) are undergoing if not already complete. They can carry df21d and 26.



I always got the feeling that the Type 095 is going to play the role of the Seawolf class for the PLAN. Also based on several analysis reports made by the US, the Type 095 was mentioned to be a heavy class SSN that's closer to a SSGN.

And the Type 093B is already superior to the 688i, perhaps quite close to the earliest blocks of the Virginia class, so with its good performance and cheaper price, maybe China is going to mass produce more upgraded variants in the near future.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I always got the feeling that the Type 095 is going to play the role of the Seawolf class for the PLAN. Also based on several analysis reports made by the US, the Type 095 was mentioned to be a heavy class SSN that's closer to a SSGN.
> 
> And the Type 093B is already superior to the 688i, perhaps quite close to the earliest blocks of the Virginia class, so with its good performance and cheaper price, maybe China is going to mass produce more upgraded variants in the near future.


Remember a couple of years ago the vice governor of Liaoning Province said China has started built 4th generation of nuclear sub in an interview. Many argued maybe it was a slip of the tongue. Now in hindsight I believe he meant 095. There is news that China has finally been able to build 10m beam for single hull nuclear sub, the same in size as the Los Angeles class, as apposed to the 093's 8m beam with double hull. So only 095 can be called 4th generation.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Maybe the mixture of single and double, single both design got their respective advantage; single hull is better to store more weapons, while the double got thicker hide to reduce more noise from the reactor.

Yasen also uses the mixture design.


----------



## hk299792458

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The new SSN with little hump is the Type 09IIIB, so stop arguing over an established fact.



Sorry but I can't see any "established fact". I think everyone like me follows those stuff via forum / weibo / official articles, and till now there is no any common agreement on the number of 09III / 09IIIA or 09IIIB.

I've quoted since years everything said by pop3, for example these 2, nothing confirm the production schedule as you said or the fact that it is 09IIIB in the photo published yesterday :











So stop forcing people to believe something not officially confirmed yet.

Henri K.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Those SSNs with little hump is the Type 09IIIB according to POP3, also confirmed by China's media.



I don't believe in any individual since we are talking about highly classified military equipment. It should be noted that pop3 has records of making fun of the little birds inquire about information from him.

“这些年来，中国海军在舰载武器上所取得的进步有目共睹，……红旗-16B型和海红旗-9B型舰空导弹、……极大提高了中国海军的攻防作战能力。”——pop3, 24/2/2016

“红旗16B不是舰载型号，我以前故意埋的炸弹。”——pop3, 11/6/2016

pop3's comment about that photo:

"09IIIB按正常时序判断的话，现在露面属合理范围，但我不对网上图片下判定，别人如何判定是他自己的事情。"——pop3

Though according to my knowledge, 093A is a real model, no official media has ever confirmed the existence of 093A yet, not to mention 093B.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 093B is entering into the mass production stage, and so far 6 boats will be deployed in total by the end of 2016.



First type 093A was launched in 2013, first spotted in its base in 2015, and is expected to commission this year.

“2月中旬，海军某潜艇基地35艇员队……去年以来，该艇员队开展新装备接装培训。”——《海军某潜艇基地35艇员队拓展群众性练兵方式》



Tiqiu said:


> This satellite photo last year showed the new sub on the left was wider than the 093 docked next to it



The one on the right is a type 091.



Tiqiu said:


> There are rumours that 2 093C(or 095) are undergoing if not already complete. They can carry df21d and 26.



There is no chance for an SSN to equip ballistic missiles.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## hk299792458

I share the same view from @星海军事, the official article talking about "Team n°35" is for me the only credible information telling us that a new variant of Type 09III has been inducted. Though nothing more.

So far as long as I read, the Type 09IIIB reference do exist, and nothing confirming the reference of "Type 09IIIA".

The production lifecycle of a SSN is long, "6 will be inducted this year" is a joke for me, and I will still say the same thing if this is for the United States.

Henri K.


----------



## Tiqiu

星海军事 said:


> I don't believe in any individual since we are talking about highly classified military equipment. It should be noted that pop3 has records of making fun of the little birds inquire about information from him.



But if Liaoning province vice governor was quoted of saying that the development of China's forth generation nuclear sub was completed, then there is reason to believe the next new sub we see will be China's 4th generation nuclear sub(maybe 095). If it uses 10m pressure haul, with hump or mixture of single&double haul design, it will fit in DF21(10.7 m in length).

Mr. Tan Zuojun was the general manager and deputy party secretary of the China State Shipbuilding Corporation before taking the current post of vice governor. Don't forget Dalian shipyard and Buohai shipyard ( 葫芦岛造船厂) are all in his province and under CSSC.

So like the news suggested, if 091(year 1974) is the first generation, 093(year 2009) is the second, and 093B (the wider hall with hump we saw now)is the third, then the next new sub we see will be China's 4th generation nuclear sub.

http://news.sohu.com/20130819/n384455838.shtml
南都讯 记者彭美 特约撰稿李小健　据新华网报道，正在召开的2013年东北四省区合作行政首长联席会议上，辽宁省副省长谭作钧透露，第四代核潜艇、航空母舰、新一代歼击机等高新武器装备已在东北研制完成。

　　谭作钧此前担任中国船舶工业集团公司总经理、党组副书记。去年8月调任辽宁省副省长。我国第一艘航空母舰“辽宁舰”即由中国船舶重工集团公司旗下的大连造船厂完成改装，并在去年9月25日正式交付军方。

　　核动力潜艇自诞生以来，由于其具备航行速度高、自给力大、攻击力强、续航时间长、能在水下长时间隐蔽活动等优点，一直是世界各个大国、强国竞相发展的武器装备之一。目前全世界公开宣称拥有核潜艇的国家有6个，分别为：美国、俄罗斯、中国、英国、法国、印度。

　　根据官方公开报道，1974年8月1日建军节当天，中央军委正式发布命令，我国第一艘鱼雷攻击核潜艇长征1号正式入役，第一代核潜艇的研制工作获得成功。

　　2009年，在中国海军60周年大阅兵中，第二代核潜艇正式亮相。


----------



## 星海军事

Tiqiu said:


> So like the news suggested, if 091(year 1974) is the first generation, 093(year 2009) is the second, and 093B (the wider hall with hump we saw now)is the third, then the next new sub we see will be China's 4th generation nuclear sub



The third generation may refer to type 093:












Tiqiu said:


> 2009年，在中国海军60周年大阅兵中，第二代核潜艇正式亮相。



This source is not official.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

> "09IIIB按正常时序判断的话，现在露面属合理范围，但我不对网上图片下判定，别人如何判定是他自己的事情。"——pop3



Read his comment carefully, he said it is plausible for the Type 09IIIB to show up right now, but he just doesn't want to comment further, and other people's opinions are none of his business.

Because the nuclear submarine is the classified information just like the nuclear weapons, he has to fulfill his commitment to keep it in secret.



Tiqiu said:


> So like the news suggested, if 091(year 1974) is the first generation, 093(year 2009) is the second, and 093B (the wider hall with hump we saw now)is the third, then the next new sub we see will be China's 4th generation nuclear sub.



The first Type 093 was started in construction by 1998, and being deployed by 2006.


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The first Type 093 was started in construction by 1998, and being deployed by 2006.


And it was put on display 3 years later on the 60th National Anniversary Parade. Like the news said, Chinese second generation nuclear sub was first seen in public in 2009. 

Compare the Sail of this newly revealed sub to that of 093, we can easily spot few differences. Without the look-out windows on its sail, the new sub is designed to dive deeper. Also without the joint section of its hall and sail, the new sub seems using an integrated pressure hall structure design,which will make it new generation than its predecessor - the 3rd generation nuclear sub of China.

Some suggested the 4th generation will be without its sale planes








The USS Asheville (SSN 758)

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> And it was put on display 3 years later on the 60th National Anniversary Parade. Like the news said, Chinese second generation nuclear sub was first seen in public in 2009.
> 
> Compare the Sail of this newly revealed sub to that of 093, we can easily spot few differences. Without the look-out windows on its sail, the new sub is designed to dive deeper. Also without the joint section of its hall and sail, the new sub seems using an integrated pressure hall structure design,which will make it new generation than its predecessor - the 3rd generation nuclear sub of China.
> 
> Some suggested the 4th generation will be without its sale planes
> 
> View attachment 312781
> 
> 
> 
> The USS Asheville (SSN 758)
> View attachment 312782



Yep, those wings won't be seen on the tower of the 4th generation nuclear subs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yep, those wings won't be seen on the tower of the 4th generation nuclear subs.


Those 2 wings will generate extra noise when sailing at high speed. Noise level at high speed is the only factor to judge how quite is a nuclear sub.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> Those 2 wings will generate extra noise when sailing at high speed. Noise level at high speed is the only factor to judge how quite is a nuclear sub.



That's why the Type 09IIIB is still a 3.5th gen, but maybe it has already featured with the pump-jet.

Since the Type 09IIIB is transitional between the 3rd gen and 4th gen, also a test bed for many techs from the 4th gen.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Penguin

I've yet to see a submarine without diving planes ("wings").... if not on the sail then on the front and/or rear of the hull. Sometimes retractable.












Sea wolf SSN


----------



## Penguin

Some conventional subs

Type 212A SS





Type 214 SS





Dolhpin SS





Scorpene





677 Lada





Yuan

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Penguin

Type 091





Type 092





Type 093





Type 094

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tiqiu

*USS California (SSN-781)*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cnleio

Is that rocket-assisted torpedo ???

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Blue Marlin

Penguin said:


> I've yet to see a submarine without diving planes ("wings").... if not on the sail then on the front and/or rear of the hull. Sometimes retractable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sea wolf SSN


the rear wing is on all/most subs including chinese subs




as for front wings they are typicaly found on most german designed subs and older french subs examples:

pakistans very own a90b has front wings




the type 209 is an exception as it wings are retractable but still at the front.





the type 214 with the conventional front wings




the one that stands out is the 212
as it has sail wings


----------



## SvenSvensonov

cnleio said:


> Is that rocket-assisted torpedo ???
> 
> View attachment 312959



Not quite, but not too wrong either. It's an EM52 rocket-assisted moored-mine:











They've been around for about 30 years. I've seen them in Iran's arsenal

It's similar to the US CAPTOR mine:






Being a surface-laid, encapsulated projectile, the EM 52, like the CAPTOR launches a projectile when a surface ship comes into range.

For the CAPTOR this is a MK46 light-weight torpedo:






For the EM52, it's actually a rocket rather then a torpedo. This makes the EM52 lack maneuverability or adaptability, but their projectile rises faster and leaves the target less time to react. Traditional torpedo countermeasures like Nixie also don't work against such weapons, which generally lack a homing system.






Even hard-kill options like Torbuster would be of limited value as the rocket is attacking from below, rather then from the side or rear of the ship.






The limitation of an EM52 type mine is that it requires the target to pass directly overhead, thus limiting its range versus a CAPTOR type design which can launch a homing torpedo that can follow its target.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
4


----------



## Penguin

Blue Marlin said:


> the rear wing is on all/most subs including chinese subs


All subs have some form a rudder. Here the main difference is whether + or x design.



Blue Marlin said:


> as for front wings they are typicaly found on most german designed subs and older french subs examples:


Scorpene is a post 2000 sub
http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-at-udt-from-1-to-3-june-in-oslo-norway/






Vistoria class (ex-UK Upholder)





IKL TR-1700 for Argentinia (Thyssen Nordseewerke)





Dutch Walrus class





Collins class





Modernized Swedish sub in Singapore service (Archer class)





Newest Swedish A-26 submarine design.





TKMS Type 218SG

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Penguin

Soryu class submarine





Oyashio class submarine





Harushio class





Yushio class





Uzushio class





USS Barbel as launched





USS Barbel (definitively)





_Barbel_-class submarines were originally designed and built with bow planes. The _Barbel_s were built with bow mounted diving planes, but these were replaced by sail planes (aka fairwater planes) within a few years. This feature was standard on US Navy submarines until bow planes returned with the improved _Los Angeles_ class, the first of which was launched in 1988.

The _Barbel_ class' design is considered to be very effective.[3] The _Zwaardvis_-class submarines of the Netherlands and the _Hai Lung_-class submarines of the Republic of China (built and sold by the Netherlands) were based on the _Barbel_ class design and forerunner of the Walrus class. The Japanese _Uzushio_ class and its successors were also influenced by the _Barbel_ class.

Kilo class

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Blue Marlin

Penguin said:


> All subs have some form a rudder. Here the main difference is whether + or x design.
> 
> 
> Scorpene is a post 2000 sub
> http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-at-udt-from-1-to-3-june-in-oslo-norway/


the israeli dolphin (the newer ones) have an X rudder with a single verticle rudder at the top.





i dont have problems with sail planes but if i were to pick a sub i would pick the astute class and the seawolf class sub


----------



## cirr

*FIRST PICTURE OF CHINA'S SECRETIVE NEW SUBMARINE*

THE TYPE 093B IS STEALTHY AND NUCLEAR

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 

Posted Yesterday at 10:30pm




People's Navy Online

TYpe 093B SSN

The Type 093B SSN is China's newest nuclear attack submarine. Stealthy and fast, it can quickly fire a barrage of vertically launched cruise missiles at unsuspecting ships and land targets.

In June 2016, China's navy released a clear photo of its newest, stealthiest nuclear attack submarine (SSN) being loaded with missiles. China's nuclear submarines are among the most secretive Chinese military platforms--it's a rare event to have even a photo of a 40-year-old Type 091 Han submarine, or the Type 092 Xia nuclear ballistic missile submarine. So an official photo of a modern Type 093B submarine is definitely big news in the world of People's Liberation Army-watching.





Jeff Head

Type 093

The Type 093 was designed in the late 1980s/early 1990s, and launched in 2002 and 2003. Only two Type 093s were built, as they are considered noisy and expensive, though much an improvement over the 1960s era Type 091 SSN. The Type 093B is believed to be much quieter than the Type 093, building on decades of Chinese advances in metallurgy and reactor/propulsion refinements.

The Type 093B "Shang" nuclear attack submarine is quiet, fast and the first Chinese combat submarine to be able to fire vertically launched cruise missiles. The United States Defense Department believes that three Type 093B SSNs were launched in 2015, and may enter service later this year. The original two Type 093 SSNs, launched nearly 15 years ago, were plagued by noisy reactors and propulsion systems, especially at high speeds, which limited their combat utility by making them highly detectable to enemy anti-submarine efforts. The Type 093B, in contrast, uses advances in Chinese metallurgy and reactor design to make a more quiet submarine. Experts place its stealthiness between that of the USN Los Angeles Flight I and Flight III SSNs.





Xinhui via China Defense Forum

VLS

The VLS cells are housed in a module right behind the conning tower; its framed in this picture by the blue gangway. The VLS battery, which may have 12-16 cells, can carry a range of cruise missiles for anti-ship and land attack missions.

While the stealth and performance of the Type 093B's reactor are not discernible just from looking at the outside, there are other noticeable improvements. The biggest is the installation of a vertical launch system battery behind the conning tower, which can be seen in a hydrodynamic hump blended into the hull (the VLS battery can be seen under the blue gangway). The VLS cell gives the Type 093B an advantage over older Chinese attack submarines since instead of launching cruise missiles from the torpedo tubes, it can more quickly launch missiles from the VLS. The larger size of VLS cells also makes them a good place to launch future underwater robots and UAVs. The Type 093B will still carry torpedo tube-launched cruise missiles, as seen in this photo. (The Chinese sailors are clearly loading a cruise missile canister into the torpedo tube, given that the smooth canister lacks the control surfaces of a torpedo.)





Xinhui via China Defense Forum

The Old Fashioned Way

Even with its vertically launched cruise missiles, the Type 093B SSN's torpedoes are still deadly against even aircraft carriers (though the crew is loading a torpedo tube launched anti-ship missile canister in this photo).

The Type 093B's conning tower has a flared base, similar to modern attack submarines like the Type 39C conventional submarine, and the American Virginia class SSN. The flared base could contain sensors, in addition to reducing under hydrodynamic drag and noise at certain speeds. There are also large installation mounts on the hull sides for side-mounted active sonar that will sweep for both surface warships and submarines.





Hongjian at China Defense Forum

YJ-82 Canister

In addition to VLS cells, submarines can also fire anti-ship missile canisters from their torpedo tubes; the canisters surface and break open to launch their missiles. This older method though, imposes size constraints on the missile and is a slower firing method.

Impressive a leap as the Type 093B may be for China's underwater force, the PLAN is already working on its next SSN. The Type 095 nuclear submarine, which may be launched before 2020, has been described by the Office of Naval Intelligence as a nuclear cruise missile submarine (SSGN) meaning that it'll carry a significant amount of cruise missiles, in addition to being a stealthy ship and sub hunter killer. The *Type 095 SSGN* is also likely to be quieter than the Type 093B, as well having underwater networked capability to worth with other manned and unmanned platforms above and underwater, and improved passive and active sensors. China has been behind other Pacific powers like the US and Japan in the undersea realm, but these examples of military modernization show how it is racing to close the gap.

http://www.popsci.com/first-picture-chinas-secretive-new-submarine-type-093b

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## sheik

boomslang said:


> China will ALWAYS be second to the West because they don't invent, they steal or copy. So they need to wait till they're able to steal or copy the 'newest thing'. By then, the West is on to something better. Always second fiddle.



A country who led the world for just a century jeered at a country who had led the world for centuries?
You think you will lead forever? It won't take long to see the end.
And there is a Chinese idiom for people like you: 夏虫不可以语冰 LOL

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Beast

sheik said:


> A country who led the world for just a century jeered at a country who had led the world for centuries?
> You think you will lead forever? It won't take long to see the end.
> And there is a Chinese idiom for people like you: 夏虫不可以语冰 LOL


Like how we beat their supercomputer for 4 straight years and top. American is now second best.  American are bad loser. They cannot take defeat and only self bragging to comfort their wounded ego.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Bussard Ramjet

Beast said:


> Like how we beat their supercomputer for 4 straight years and top. American is now second best.  American are bad loser. They cannot take defeat and only self bragging to comfort their wounded ego.



Since you have introduced supercomputing here, US is still the BEST in HPC. Almost all software, hardware, architectures, breakthroughs are happening in US. No doubt China is catching up rapidly. But right now, US is still ahead.


----------



## 星海军事

正视差距，砥砺前行

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cnleio

SvenSvensonov said:


> For the CAPTOR this is a MK46 light-weight torpedo:


Thank you very much !

Here is PLAN light-weight torpedo, Yu-7 and a unknown new light-weight torpedo

























boomslang said:


> China will ALWAYS be second to the West because they don't invent, they steal or copy. So they need to wait till they're able to steal or copy the 'newest thing'. By then, the West is on to something better. Always second fiddle.


HAHA ... now China just second to U.S, not to all West. U r drunk !

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Penguin

Blue Marlin said:


> the israeli dolphin (the newer ones) have an X rudder with a single verticle rudder at the top.


The X-planes perform the rudder function. The vertical fin is a fixed feature. It also has 2 horizontal fixed fins. TKMS is marketing a new small sub, using the internal layout of the Type 210 (Ula class, Norway) but with a modern outer hull, that incorporates the curved sail front and diving planes relocated from lower bow to upper bow area, like on Dolphin.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Blue Marlin

Penguin said:


> The X-planes perform the rudder function. The vertical fin is a fixed feature. It also has 2 horizontal fixed fins. TKMS is marketing a new small sub, using the internal layout of the Type 210 (Ula class, Norway) but with a modern outer hull, that incorporates the curved sail front and diving planes relocated from lower bow to upper bow area, like on Dolphin.


whats the new sub called or can you share the link
regards


----------



## Penguin

Astute class SSN





Trafalgar class SSN





Vanguard class SSBN





Resolution class SSBN





Barracuda class SSN





Rubis class SSN





Triomphant class SSBN





Redoutable class SSBN

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Penguin

Blue Marlin said:


> whats the new sub called or can you share the link
> regards


https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/hdw-class-210mod.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Deino

@Penguin

Please ... even if surely interesting, but that thread's title is "Chinese ...", so why do You post images of several other submarines ??

Deino

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Penguin

Deino said:


> @Penguin
> 
> Please ... even if surely interesting, but that thread's title is "Chinese ...", so why do You post images of several other submarines ??
> 
> Deino


If diving planes mounted on sail are so bad, how come they are used by some many?


----------



## Blue Marlin

Penguin said:


> https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/hdw-class-210mod.html


cheers ahkid


----------



## Daniel808

cirr said:


> *FIRST PICTURE OF CHINA'S SECRETIVE NEW SUBMARINE*
> 
> THE TYPE 093B IS STEALTHY AND NUCLEAR
> 
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer
> 
> Posted Yesterday at 10:30pm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People's Navy Online
> 
> TYpe 093B SSN
> 
> The Type 093B SSN is China's newest nuclear attack submarine. Stealthy and fast, it can quickly fire a barrage of vertically launched cruise missiles at unsuspecting ships and land targets.
> 
> In June 2016, China's navy released a clear photo of its newest, stealthiest nuclear attack submarine (SSN) being loaded with missiles. China's nuclear submarines are among the most secretive Chinese military platforms--it's a rare event to have even a photo of a 40-year-old Type 091 Han submarine, or the Type 092 Xia nuclear ballistic missile submarine. So an official photo of a modern Type 093B submarine is definitely big news in the world of People's Liberation Army-watching.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Head
> 
> Type 093
> 
> The Type 093 was designed in the late 1980s/early 1990s, and launched in 2002 and 2003. Only two Type 093s were built, as they are considered noisy and expensive, though much an improvement over the 1960s era Type 091 SSN. The Type 093B is believed to be much quieter than the Type 093, building on decades of Chinese advances in metallurgy and reactor/propulsion refinements.
> 
> The Type 093B "Shang" nuclear attack submarine is quiet, fast and the first Chinese combat submarine to be able to fire vertically launched cruise missiles. The United States Defense Department believes that three Type 093B SSNs were launched in 2015, and may enter service later this year. The original two Type 093 SSNs, launched nearly 15 years ago, were plagued by noisy reactors and propulsion systems, especially at high speeds, which limited their combat utility by making them highly detectable to enemy anti-submarine efforts. The Type 093B, in contrast, uses advances in Chinese metallurgy and reactor design to make a more quiet submarine. Experts place its stealthiness between that of the USN Los Angeles Flight I and Flight III SSNs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xinhui via China Defense Forum
> 
> VLS
> 
> The VLS cells are housed in a module right behind the conning tower; its framed in this picture by the blue gangway. The VLS battery, which may have 12-16 cells, can carry a range of cruise missiles for anti-ship and land attack missions.
> 
> While the stealth and performance of the Type 093B's reactor are not discernible just from looking at the outside, there are other noticeable improvements. The biggest is the installation of a vertical launch system battery behind the conning tower, which can be seen in a hydrodynamic hump blended into the hull (the VLS battery can be seen under the blue gangway). The VLS cell gives the Type 093B an advantage over older Chinese attack submarines since instead of launching cruise missiles from the torpedo tubes, it can more quickly launch missiles from the VLS. The larger size of VLS cells also makes them a good place to launch future underwater robots and UAVs. The Type 093B will still carry torpedo tube-launched cruise missiles, as seen in this photo. (The Chinese sailors are clearly loading a cruise missile canister into the torpedo tube, given that the smooth canister lacks the control surfaces of a torpedo.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xinhui via China Defense Forum
> 
> The Old Fashioned Way
> 
> Even with its vertically launched cruise missiles, the Type 093B SSN's torpedoes are still deadly against even aircraft carriers (though the crew is loading a torpedo tube launched anti-ship missile canister in this photo).
> 
> The Type 093B's conning tower has a flared base, similar to modern attack submarines like the Type 39C conventional submarine, and the American Virginia class SSN. The flared base could contain sensors, in addition to reducing under hydrodynamic drag and noise at certain speeds. There are also large installation mounts on the hull sides for side-mounted active sonar that will sweep for both surface warships and submarines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hongjian at China Defense Forum
> 
> YJ-82 Canister
> 
> In addition to VLS cells, submarines can also fire anti-ship missile canisters from their torpedo tubes; the canisters surface and break open to launch their missiles. This older method though, imposes size constraints on the missile and is a slower firing method.
> 
> Impressive a leap as the Type 093B may be for China's underwater force, the PLAN is already working on its next SSN. The Type 095 nuclear submarine, which may be launched before 2020, has been described by the Office of Naval Intelligence as a nuclear cruise missile submarine (SSGN) meaning that it'll carry a significant amount of cruise missiles, in addition to being a stealthy ship and sub hunter killer. The *Type 095 SSGN* is also likely to be quieter than the Type 093B, as well having underwater networked capability to worth with other manned and unmanned platforms above and underwater, and improved passive and active sensors. China has been behind other Pacific powers like the US and Japan in the undersea realm, but these examples of military modernization show how it is racing to close the gap.
> 
> http://www.popsci.com/first-picture-chinas-secretive-new-submarine-type-093b




Nice Photos !

Waiting for First Type 095 SSN Photos 

*These depictions of the "Type 095A" SSN are from the "Warship Knowledge" magazine, which is supposedly a reputable source with direct ties to the China Shipbuilding Engineering Society. This would be, if the aforementioned are valid, the first official admittance of the Type 095's existence.




















*

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So by the end of this year, basically China will have:
> 
> Type 091G - 3
> Type 092G - 1
> 
> Type 093 - 1
> Type 093A - 1
> Type 093B - 6
> 
> Type 094 - 2
> Type 094A - 2
> Type 094B - 2
> 
> Type 095 - ???
> Type 096 - ???


According to Indonesia Metro TV, Chinese Ship 409 SSN sailed past Malacca on June 25. Based on your numbers count, this maybe one of the six 093B ?





Chinese SSN 408?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> According to Indonesia Metro TV, Chinese Ship 409 SSN sailed past Malacca on June 25. Based on your numbers count, this maybe one of the six 093B ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese SSN 408?



I saw the photo, it is clearly an upgraded variant of the Type 093, while some people to label it as the Type 093A, but I still believe this is the Type 09IIIB mentioned by POP3.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

It doesn't have the small hump, but it has the sloped joint between the tower and hull, so maybe it is the real Type 09IIIA.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tiqiu

For me, the next Chinese SSN will be the Chinese 4th generation if its photos leaked on the net show(or are allowed us to see) one or all of the followings:
1) 4 decks instead of current 3;
2) different size and position of the sail;
3) bow planes on the hall toward the bow like SEA WOLF and VIRGINIA classes, which can lock and retract with the outer edges conformal to the hull automatically at a specified speed.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I saw the photo, it is clearly an upgraded variant of the Type 093, while some people to label it as the Type 093A, but I still believe this is the Type 09IIIB mentioned by POP3.


Which photo did you see? 











Has anyone seen this photo before? It just started circulating on the net showing some mobilization of the Chinese navy ships.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> Which photo did you see?
> View attachment 314017
> 
> 
> View attachment 314018
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen this photo before? It just started circulating on the net showing some mobilization of the Chinese navy ships.
> View attachment 314021



I've seen two Type 093 docked at the same time, and this recent one passing the strait of Malacca is a newer model with an improved tower, but still lacked the hump. So it is definitely the Type 093A.

So there are three variants of the Type 093 so far; Type 093/093A/093B.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I've seen two Type 093 docked at the same time, and this recent one passing the strait of Malacca is a newer model with an improved tower, but still lacked the hump. So it is definitely the Type 093A.
> 
> So there are three variants of the Type 093 so far; Type 093/093A/093B.


Till now, from open source we know there are at least 4 093 and variants, if we add four 094, four 091/092(403 -406,401/402 were decommissioned),it will bring us a total of 12 nuclear subs.

Two 093 (maybe 407/408)











And there is one 093A(409)








And one 093B(4XX)

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Tiqiu

Another possible 3 093A(or 093 variant) with VLS

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

We have more than four Type 094 SSBNs.


Here is three Type 094 SSBNs docked together, and they don't look too different from each other, so I assume they are just Type 094/094A.







Here is two very different looking Type 094, and the new designed tower, I guess these two are the Type 094B.









Overall, I estimate there are totally six Type 094 SSBNs being deployed so far, and other two under construction or sea trial. With eight Type 094 SSBNs being built, China will start to build the Type 096, and the total number could be up to twelve.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We have more than four Type 094 SSBNs.
> 
> 
> Here is three Type 094 SSBNs docked together, and they don't look too different from each other, so I assume they are just Type 094/094A.
> 
> View attachment 314445
> 
> 
> 
> Here is two very different looking Type 094, and the new designed tower, I guess these two are the Type 094B.
> 
> View attachment 314447
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, I estimate there are totally six Type 094 SSBNs being deployed so far, and other two under construction or sea trial. With eight Type 094 SSBNs being built, China will start to build the Type 096, and the total number could be up to twelve.



The one in the middle at the bottom is actually a type 092,





As you can see, the "new designed tower" of "type 094B" is a false impression.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> The one in the middle at the bottom is actually a type 092,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the "new designed tower" of "type 094B" is a false impression.



So you just imply there are two Type 092? Because in the pic we have seen two of this type of SSBN.

But the only one Type 092 we got so far is 406.


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So you just imply there are two Type 092? Because in the pic we have seen two of this type of SSBN.
> 
> But the only one Type 092 we got so far is 406.


No. I meant both type 092 and 094 are likely to give people this kind of false impression.

There seems to be a fillet between the sail and hull of this 094.






In fact, there isn't.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> No. I meant both type 092 and 094 are likely to give people this kind of false impression.
> 
> There seems to be a fillet between the sail and hull of this 094.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, there isn't.



This is the Type 092, if you see the slope in back of the tower.

The tower of the Type 094 is completely vertical.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Here is the specification of the Type 093B.

Displacement: 8800 tonnes
Maximum Depth: 490 meters
Length: 115.10 meters
Beam: 10.56 meters
Hull: mixture of single and double
Propulsion: PWR & 2 x Steam Turbines 45,000 shp
Propeller: Pump-jet


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This is the Type 092, if you see the slope in back of the tower.
> 
> The tower of the Type 094 is completely vertical.
> 
> View attachment 314612


 Sorry, wrong image chosen, but the same problem still exists.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> Sorry, wrong image chosen, but the same problem still exists.



There are two of this type of SSBN in the pic, then it cannot be the 406.


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Here is the specification of the Type 093B.
> 
> Displacement: 8800 tonnes
> Maximum Depth: 490 meters
> Length: 115.10 meters
> Beam: 10.56 meters
> Hull: mixture of single and double
> Propulsion: PWR & 2 x Steam Turbines 45,000 shp
> Propeller: Pump-jet


If you are talking about the new model with small hump, it is propeller-driven. (GE image taken on 6/19/2016)







ChineseTiger1986 said:


> There are two of this type of SSBN in the pic, then it cannot be the 406.


As I mentioned above, both type 092 and 094 are likely to give people this kind of false impression. So the SSBNs in the photo can be either type 092 or 094. It is too small and blurry to be used as an evidence.


----------



## Akasa

Credits go to _Forbin_ on SDF, who consolidated all of the rumored information and summarized it:

*Type 09III*
Type 09III
407 (Launched on 26/12/2002, entered service 12/2006)
408 (Launched in 2003, entered service 2007)​Type 09IIIA
413 (Launched in 2012, entered service 2015?)​Type 09IIIB
414 (launched)
415 (launched)
416 (launched)
417 (confirmed to be in construction via satellite photos)
418 (confirmed to be in construction via satellite photos)​*TOTAL: 8 Type 09III (3 09III, 1 09IIIA, 3 09IIIB) completed*

*Type 09V*
419 (rumored to be in construction)​*TOTAL: 0 (1 under construction)*

*Type 09IV*
409 (launched on 28/07/2004, entered service 2007)
415 (launched in 2006, entered service 2010)
416 (launched in 2007, entered service 2013)
417 (launched in 12/2007, entered service 2014?)​*TOTAL: 4 Type 09IV*

@cirr @星海军事 Can you corroborate the rumors regarding the 09V construction?

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Tiqiu

SinoSoldier said:


> *Type 09IV*
> 409 (launched on 28/07/2004, entered service 2007)



You are right. It seems that the so called "409" SSN quoted by the Indonesian Navy passing the Malacca is misrepresentation. According to the photo taken In President Xi's visit last year, "409" is Chinese SSBN 094

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## 星海军事

Tiqiu said:


> You are right. It seems that the so called "409" SSN quoted by the Indonesian Navy passing the Malacca is misrepresentation. According to the photo taken In President Xi's visit last year, "409" is Chinese SSBN 094
> View attachment 314781
> 
> 
> View attachment 314782


长征九号≠409. The former is the name of the sub and the latter is the hull number.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tiqiu

This new type of 094 definitely has the sail cusp attached to the hull and lower leading edge of the submarine sail to smooth laminar flow of water over its surface, thereby improving hydrodynamic performance of the submarine.






The sail cusp to be used on US next eight Virginia Class nuclear attack submarines

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

SinoSoldier said:


> Credits go to _Forbin_ on SDF, who consolidated all of the rumored information and summarized it:
> 
> *Type 09III*
> Type 09III
> 407 (Launched on 26/12/2002, entered service 12/2006)
> 408 (Launched in 2003, entered service 2007)​Type 09IIIA
> 413 (Launched in 2012, entered service 2015?)​Type 09IIIB
> 414 (launched)
> 415 (launched)
> 416 (launched)
> 417 (confirmed to be in construction via satellite photos)
> 418 (confirmed to be in construction via satellite photos)​*TOTAL: 8 Type 09III (3 09III, 1 09IIIA, 3 09IIIB) completed*
> 
> *Type 09V*
> 419 (rumored to be in construction)​*TOTAL: 0 (1 under construction)*
> 
> *Type 09IV*
> 409 (launched on 28/07/2004, entered service 2007)
> 415 (launched in 2006, entered service 2010)
> 416 (launched in 2007, entered service 2013)
> 417 (launched in 12/2007, entered service 2014?)​*TOTAL: 4 Type 09IV*
> 
> @cirr @星海军事 Can you corroborate the rumors regarding the 09V construction?



Now we have at least 2 more Type 09IVB, and the second batch of the Type 09IV should be also four.

Overall, there will be eight Type 09IV SSBNs being deployed before 2020.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

This maybe the rumor "094A" SSBN

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Now we have at least 2 more Type 09IVB, and the second batch of the Type 09IV should be also four.
> 
> Overall, there will be eight Type 09IV SSBNs being deployed before 2020.


That is an accurate estimate.
There are four 094 in the service, the first of which is #409 that Xi has visited.
There are two 094G(G means modification) 
There are two 096 are being built or nearly completed.

Three 094 were spotted at one port. This was a deliberate act of China for the interested country to calculate how many SSBN China has since they can add the number of SSBN observed from other area around the same time to reach a total.





Difference on the rudder of 094,092G and 094G





094 vs 096

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> That is an accurate estimate.
> There are four 094 in the service, the first of which is #409 that Xi has visited.
> There are two 094G(G means modification)
> There are two 096 are being built or nearly completed.
> 
> Three 094 were spotted at one port. This was a deliberate act of China for the interested country to calculate how many SSBN China has since they can add the number of SSBN observed from other area around the same time to reach a total.
> View attachment 315749
> 
> 
> Difference on the rudder of 094,092G and 094G
> View attachment 315751
> 
> 
> 094 vs 096
> View attachment 315756



The final number for the Type 094 will be 8, and the number for the Type 096 will likely be 12, because China is more satisfied with the performance of the Type 096 than its predecessor, that's why they will build more.

Each SSBN can submerge into the water for 3 months, hence you will need at least 4 SSBNs for the entire annual cycle.

8 SSBNs means each time there will be 2 SSBNs patrolling simultaneously, while 12 SSBNs means each time there will be 3 SSBNs. So 12 should be enough for China's naval based nuclear deterrence.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Tiqiu

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The final number for the Type 094 will be 8, and the number for the Type 096 will likely be 12, because China is more satisfied with the performance of the Type 096 than its predecessor, that's why they will build more.
> 
> Each SSBN can submerge in to the water for 3 months, hence you will need at least 4 SSBNs for the entire annual cycle.
> 
> 8 SSBNs means each time there will be 2 SSBNs patrolling simultaneously, while 12 SSBNs means each time there will be 3 SSBNs. So 12 should be enough for China's naval based nuclear deterrence.


Why not? China has the money and China has the needs.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Tiqiu

These photos seemed to be taken at a closer angle compared to the previous 3 094 photo. Note two 094 have sail cusps and one 093 does not have look-out windows on its sail(you may need to download and enlarge).

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> Why not? China has the money and China has the needs.



12 Type 096 SSBNs with 16 JL-3 SLBMs with 10 MIRV warheads, so that should be 12 x 16 x 10 = 1920 thermonuclear warheads in potential for China's naval nuclear deterrence.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Beast



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## argonautluk

Sudden changes of Chinese military. Awesome!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

039C?
* 巧遇039C开过去*
039C

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## 星海军事

grey boy 2 said:


> 039C?
> * 巧遇039C开过去*
> 039C



Latest version of 039B

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## IblinI

argonautluk said:


> Sudden changes of Chinese military. Awesome!


Nothing is sudden,it means we keep our head down and working quietly.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## grey boy 2



Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## Tiqiu

grey boy 2 said:


>


The Chinese military professor Li li has confirmed on last night Focus Toady program that it is the new type of 094 carrying a new type of range-enhanced JL-2 ( maybe JL-2B, not JL-3). That video maybe available very soon.

094A confirmed at 07:40

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Tiqiu

According to this news sourced from the Russian media, US satellite found China was building two 097.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Mangus Ortus Novem

Tiqiu said:


> According to this news sourced from the Russian media, US satellite found China was building two 097.



Is it any surprise? When the research has already strated for a newer type DDG after 055, how can China sit still on submarine development. 

What China is working towards is massive deterence. From land, sea, air and space.

For all we know type 095 might already be water going through sea trials or deployment. Type 097 is logical progression.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## hk299792458

And in two weeks China will build Type 09XI space destroyer.

In 4 months 10 Type 09XV Galactic cruiser will be launched secretly from Gobi desert.

And in 1 year, I don't ever dare to think what this country can do (or, just, what kind of reference can still be invented...).

Wake up guys, is time to go to school... Shit, it's summer holidays, that may be the reason.

Henri K.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 星海军事

hk299792458 said:


> And in two weeks China will build Type 09XI space destroyer.
> 
> In 4 months 10 Type 09XV Galactic cruiser will be launched secretly from Gobi desert.
> 
> And in 1 year, I don't ever dare to think what this country can do (or, just, what kind of reference can still be invented...).
> 
> Wake up guys, is time to go to school... Shit, it's summer holidays, that may be the reason.
> 
> Henri K.


蛋定, my friend

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Tiqiu said:


> The Chinese military professor Li li has confirmed on last night Focus Toady program that it is the new type of 094 carrying a new type of range-enhanced JL-2 ( maybe JL-2B, not JL-3). That video maybe available very soon.
> 
> 094A confirmed at 07:40



She has confirmed it is the new improved Type 094 that is designated to host for the longer SLBMs, but she didn't mention whether it is the improved JL-2 or JL-3.

If it is the improved JL-2, then it should be 3 MIRVed 250kt warheads with a range of 12000km. Otherwise, JL-3 can carry up to 10 MIRVed 250kt warheads with a range of 12000km.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## XiaoYaoZi

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> She has confirmed it is the new improved Type 094 that is designated to host for the longer SLBMs, but she didn't mention whether it is the improved JL-2 or JL-3.
> 
> If it is the improved JL-2, then it should be 3 MIRVed 250kt warheads with a range of 12000km. Otherwise, JL-3 can carry up to 10 MIRVed 250kt warheads with a range of 12000km.


肯定是增程型的巨浪2（蛋径不变，增加长度），巨浪3（弹径增加，长度甚至可能减小）得等096出来才会出现，只可能艇等弹，不可能弹等艇

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

XiaoYaoZi said:


> 肯定是增程型的巨浪2（蛋径不变，增加长度），巨浪3（弹径增加，长度甚至可能减小）得等096出来才会出现，只可能艇等弹，不可能弹等艇



I think JL-2 has a diameter over 2 meters, maybe 2.25 meters for JL-3, since the 2.5 meters of DF-41 is too much to be mounted on the SSBN.

基本型巨浪2，单弹头1万2，三弹头8千？
增程型巨浪2，单弹头1万6，三弹头1万2？

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Oldman1

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think JL-2 has a diameter over 2 meters, maybe 2.25 meters for JL-3, since the 2.5 meters of DF-41 is too much to be mounted on the SSBN.
> 
> 基本型巨浪2，单弹头1万2，三弹头8千？
> 增程型巨浪2，单弹头1万6，三弹头1万2？



Build a new submarine and it should able to handle the DF-41 easily.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## XiaoYaoZi

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I think JL-2 has a diameter over 2 meters, maybe 2.25 meters for JL-3, since the 2.5 meters of DF-41 is too much to be mounted on the SSBN.
> 
> 基本型巨浪2，单弹头1万2，三弹头8千？
> 增程型巨浪2，单弹头1万6，三弹头1万2？


巨浪2弹径2米，巨浪3可能到2.2到2.3米
http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/static/121264211201311314191377/

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Oldman1 said:


> Build a new submarine and it should able to handle the DF-41 easily.



It is almost as big as the LGM-118 Peacekeeper, so too big to be fitted into a SSBN.

The D5 Trident II will be the largest type of the SLBM to be fitted into the SSBN, even the US right now wants to build anything more advanced, then it won't be bigger by size, perhaps even smaller but with more advanced miniaturization technology and more boost power.



XiaoYaoZi said:


> 巨浪2弹径2米，巨浪3可能到2.2到2.3米
> http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/static/121264211201311314191377/



KKTT就算了吧，按照他的说法东风41连毛子的亚尔斯都不如。去年在新疆的反导试验他也没猜对，他当时猜测是红旗19，但实际上试射的就是动能3。

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## XiaoYaoZi

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is almost as big as the LGM-118 Peacekeeper, so too big to be fitted into a SSBN.
> 
> The D5 Trident II will be the largest type of the SLBM to be fitted into the SSBN, even the US right now wants to build anything more advanced, then it won't be bigger by size, perhaps even smaller but with more advanced miniaturization technology and more boost power.
> 
> 
> 
> KKTT就算了吧，按照他的说法连东风41都不如毛子的亚尔斯。去年在新疆发射的反导系统他也没猜对，他当时猜测是红旗19，但实际上试射的就是动能3。


这哥们对国产武器有低估，但是资料全，值得参考
这张图片基本可以估计出来了

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Oldman1

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is almost as big as the LGM-118 Peacekeeper, so too big to be fitted into a SSBN.
> 
> The D5 Trident II will be the largest type of the SLBM to be fitted into the SSBN, even the US right now wants to build anything more advanced, then it won't be bigger by size, perhaps even smaller but with more advanced miniaturization technology and more boost power.
> 
> 
> 
> KKTT就算了吧，按照他的说法东风41连毛子的亚尔斯都不如。去年在新疆的反导试验他也没猜对，他当时猜测是红旗19，但实际上试射的就是动能3。



Think the Russians have the biggest SLBM. They are known for building bigger things. The Trident will be the same even with the new SSBNX is introduced. Only thing I heard is improved guidance system.


----------



## hk299792458

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> 但实际上试射的就是动能3。



Where do you get confirmation that it was DN-3 ?

For the moment I'm scared about what you chinese guys called 脑补...

Henri K.


----------



## 星海军事

hk299792458 said:


> Where do you get confirmation that it was DN-3 ?
> 
> For the moment I'm scared about what you chinese guys called 脑补...
> 
> Henri K.


DN-3 is in fact a 脑补 of Bill Gertz

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Oldman1 said:


> Think the Russians have the biggest SLBM. They are known for building bigger things. The Trident will be the same even with the new SSBNX is introduced. Only thing I heard is improved guidance system.



On the contrary, Bulava is actually the smallest intercontinental SLBM out of the P5 nations.


----------



## hk299792458

星海军事 said:


> DN-3 is in fact a 脑补 of Bill Gertz



Thank you for that information.

Bill Gertz is good to let us know something had happeded, but he used to call every chinese test an ASAT, so for this part he is not credible.

Henri K.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

hk299792458 said:


> Where do you get confirmation that it was DN-3 ?
> 
> For the moment I'm scared about what you chinese guys called 脑补...
> 
> Henri K.



It was a GMD test, but we don't nitpick about its name, so it can be DN-3.

But KKTT claimed it was a terminal phase test like HQ-19, but he was obviously wrong.



hk299792458 said:


> Thank you for that information.
> 
> Bill Gertz is good to let us know something had happeded, but he used to call every chinese test an ASAT, so for this part he is not credible.
> 
> Henri K.



Of course, he got the political purpose and ulterior motive to demonize China's space weaponization, because "it will create more debris which will turn out to be dangerous for other nations' rockets" according to them.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## 星海军事

hk299792458 said:


> Bill Gertz is good to let us know something had happeded, but he used to call every chinese test an ASAT, so for this part he is not credible.



That's why I called it a 脑补



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> But KKTT claimed it was a terminal phase test like HQ-19, but he was obviously wrong.



KKTT has never assert that the so called DN-3 is a terminal phase test


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> *K*KTT has never assert that the so called DN-3 is a terminal phase test



His assertion was clearly wrong, it was a GMD test, not a terminal phase one.



> 而KKTT则认为种种迹象显示那次试验可能是一次大气上层末段反导拦截试验，试验中地面所观察到的空中异象是高空阳光照射到导弹和尾迹反光所致，并不能表示导弹的真实飞行轨迹。



http://www.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2015_11_03_339829.shtml

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> His assertion was clearly wrong, it was a GMD test, not a terminal phase one.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2015_11_03_339829.shtml



Please read the original article written by KKTT:

http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/static/12126421120151014503782/



星海军事 said:


> KKTT has never assert that the so called DN-3 is a terminal phase test


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> Please read the original article written by KKTT:
> 
> http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/static/12126421120151014503782/



这是马后炮，去年他一开始认定是大气层末端反导，后来才改口。

他是航天武器版的版主，好面子可以把自己一开始的发言修改掉。


----------



## Oldman1

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> On the contrary, Bulava is actually the smallest intercontinental SLBM out of the P5 nations.



Well the Russians did had the biggest SLBM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-39_Rif


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Oldman1 said:


> Well the Russians did had the biggest SLBM.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-39_Rif



Well, this one was made in Ukraine, and it is already retired right now.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Oldman1

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, this one was made in Ukraine, and it is already retired right now.



True it was retired. But it was still made in Russia.

The *R-39 Rif* (NATO reporting name: *SS-NX-20 Sturgeon*; bilateral arms control designation: *RSM-52* ) was a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) that served with the Soviet Navy from its introduction in 1983 until 1991, after which it served with the Russian Navy until 2004. The missile had GRAU indices of 3M65, 3M20, and 3R65. It was carried on board Typhoon-class submarines.


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> 这是马后炮，去年他一开始认定是大气层末端反导，后来才改口。
> 
> 他是航天武器版的版主，好面子可以把自己一开始的发言修改掉。



I have followed that post since 1st November and I don't think KKTT had ever suggested that the launch was a endo-atmospheric terminal phase test. No signs of edit on his posts as well.

http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=15470&extra=&highlight=%B7%B4%B5%BC&page=1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

星海军事 said:


> I have followed that post since 1st November and I don't think KKTT had ever suggested that the launch was a endo-atmospheric terminal phase test. No signs of edit on his posts as well.
> 
> http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=15470&extra=&highlight=%B7%B4%B5%BC&page=1



He deleted his comment, since he was surprised that his prediction wasn't correct.

I saw his comment about HQ-19 as the test in Xinjiang.



Oldman1 said:


> True it was retired. But it was still made in Russia.
> 
> The *R-39 Rif* (NATO reporting name: *SS-NX-20 Sturgeon*; bilateral arms control designation: *RSM-52* ) was a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) that served with the Soviet Navy from its introduction in 1983 until 1991, after which it served with the Russian Navy until 2004. The missile had GRAU indices of 3M65, 3M20, and 3R65. It was carried on board Typhoon-class submarines.



Not in the same factory, since the R-39 was made in the factory of Ukraine, while Bulava was made in Russia's.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cirr

094A

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## grey boy 2

The rumor 039C? 最新的039C型常规潜艇

Reactions: Like Like:
17


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Type 09IVA???

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## 星海军事

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Type 09IVA???
> 
> View attachment 324164



I suppose some poser on meyet is fibbing again

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## grey boy 2

039

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

The New 094A? with VLS spotted 
近日，网络上曝光了疑似中国最新核潜艇094A的照片，从照片显示该型核潜艇或配备了垂发系统。

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## grey boy 2

039A

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## grey boy 2

039G in SCS

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## grey boy 2

093

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## grey boy 2

095 production line, base? 
*095型核潜艇已开工，还是总装生产线已竣工？*
至于全新一代战术核潜艇——095型核潜艇，一直存在于传说中。除了一些不为普通人所了解的专业学术期刊，几乎没有在公开报道中出现过蛛丝马迹。直到一条信息的出现。
“8月16日上午，李天宝董事长专程到渤船集团新型总装生产线建设项目现场调研……”（下面3张图就是此新闻的配图）众所周知，我国但凡姓“核”的潜艇，均为渤船出品。所以，资深军迷判断，该新型总装生产线，正是为“千呼万唤”的095型核潜艇准备的。该报道还称：“在刚刚落成的新型总装生产线室内船台车间……全力推进新型总装生产线建设项目进程……”由此可见，095的产房已基本竣工，但整条生产线截至今年8月并未最终建成。










这条新闻距今仅3个多月时间，难以判断生产线整体至今是否已经竣工。所以，据此难以判断095型核潜艇是否已经开工。那么，海军领导11月30日的介绍，则成为一条最有价值信息。按照官方宣传语境，“进展”“重大进展”，“突破”“重大突破”都是有使用规范的。能上升到“重大突破”的程度，基本属于前所少有的事情。
值得注意的是，对于上述表述，有一个时间定语，那就是“今年5月以来”。这个时间是按照张超烈士牺牲的时间来算的（4月发生）。所以，海军领导此次的表态，可能是指095已开工，也可能指095工程取得阶段性成果——总装生产线已竣工。笔者倾向于后者。可能明年新年，对于渤船人来说，唯一的大事就是095型战术核潜艇正式开工。
如果095确实已开工，自然喜大普奔。若是尚未开工，也无需郁闷。因为，笔者判断，095应该已处于“准开工阶段”，些许等待时间不会太长。需要提醒的时，按照我国目前核潜艇技术水平，对095型核潜艇仍不可报以过高期望，比如希望达到“海狼”的水平。笔者大胆猜测，095型将是我国第一型真正的大洋核潜艇，可以“主动”与美军现役核潜艇正面周旋，而不是像现在这样，对美军核潜艇基本采取的是“被动”应对。而095也将与093系列一道，担负起护卫我国航母编队的职责。

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## quanghnn

Wonderfully


----------



## Zarvan

*




by Sébastien Roblin
*
In 2010, China’s first—and only, so far—Qing-class submarine sailed out to sea following nearly six years of construction. Displacing 6,628 tons submerged and measuring exactly the length of a football field at one hundred yards long (ninety-two meters), it is by most accounts the largest diesel submarine ever built.
Unlike the vast majority of diesel submarines, the Type 032 can fire not only long-range cruise missiles, but submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) with the capacity to send a nuclear warhead across the ocean.

*Beijing prefers to keep its cards close to the chest, leading to speculation about the Type 032—is it purely a missile testing submarine, as is officially claimed, or is it the precursor of a fleet of low-cost ballistic-missile subs? Or was the Type 32 actually built as a prototype vessel for export to Pakistan?*

In the past, nuclear submarines enjoyed an enormous advantage in submerged endurance and noise compared to traditional diesel submarines. A diesel submarine could swim quietly for days before having to resurface, but a nuclear-powered submarine can do it for months.

That China would even consider developing such a large diesel submarine is due to the advent of Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) systems, which encompass a variety of technologies that allow engines and generators onboard a submarine to operate while consuming little or no oxygen. AIP systems can be even quieter than the reactors onboard nuclear submarines, and can efficiently propel the ship electrically for weeks, albeit only at slower speeds.

The first operational AIP powered submarine was the Swedish Gotland, which entered service in 1996. Using a Stirling engine, it could operate submerged for thirty days at a time. The small and nearly silent diesel sub successfully penetrated the antisubmarine defenses of U.S. aircraft carrier task forces in several war games.

Since then, China has built fifteen Yuan-class Type 039A (aka Type 041) diesel submarines using Stirling AIP technology, with another twenty planned. The torpedo-armed Yuan-class subs are intended, like the Swedish Gotland, to serve as stealthy short-range boats for stalking enemy vessels in coastal waters.

The Stirling-powered Qing class, however, marks a dramatic departure from that modus operandi. Situated on the vessel’s elongated sail are two or three Vertical Launch Systems (VLS) tubes used to fire JL-2A Ju Lang (“Big Wave”) ballistic missiles. The JL-2A is believed to have a range approaching five thousand miles and can carry a single one-megaton nuclear warhead, or three or four ninety-kiloton independent reentry vehicles (MIRVs).

*The JL-2 was first tested in 2001 and constitutes the main armament of China’s Type 094 Jin-class nuclear submarines. A Type 094 sub embarked on China’s first nuclear deterrence patrol in 2015. Hypothetically, the Type 032 would offer a cheaper, shorter-endurance compliment to the Type-094.*

Four or five additional VLS cells on the Qing class’s bow can fire JL-18B Yingji (Eagle Strike) antishipping cruise missiles, which surge to speeds of Mach 2.5 on their terminal approach. The JL-18B is supposedly satellite guided, and is variously credited with a range of 110 to more than three hundred miles. The Type 032 can also launch the slower but longer-range CJ-20A cruise missiles, a derivative of the CJ-10.

Rounding out the Qing class’s armaments is an unconventional pairing of a single standard 533-millimeter torpedo tube with an extra-large 650-millimeter tube. The Type 032 also has facilities to accommodate and deploy up to fifty special-forces personnel—an increasingly common feature in modern submarines.

In other respects, the Type 032 is less impressive. It’s slow—with a maximum speed of sixteen miles per hour submerged, nearly half the speed of a Virginia-class nuclear-powered attack submarine. Its maximum dive depth is reported to be 160 to 200 meters—again, less than half the depth that many modern designs can submerge. The Qing class is understandably not designed for a knife-fight.

In any case, the fact that only a single Type 032 has been built reinforces the claims that it is intended as an affordable testing platform for missile armament. It indeed appears to have replaced the sixties-era Type 031 Golf-class sub used to test the JL-2 ballistic missile. In addition to its crew complement of eighty-eight, it claimed that the Type 032 can carry an additional one hundred “scientists and technicians.” The sub has also reportedly been used to test submarine-launched surface-to-air Missiles and a new underwater escape pods. Some suggest the Type 032 may be applied to deploying undersea drones.

However, a 2011 report claimed that China would sell six Type 032 submarines to Pakistan. The two countries hold a long-time alliance opposing India. China remains wary of the potential future superpower, and sees reinforcing its archrival Pakistan as a strategic hedge. However, the initial claim to a Type 032 deal was either inaccurate or fell through.

*More recently, Beijing confirmed in October that it would sell eight Project S-26 and Project S-30 submarines for $4–5 billion—a price roughly equivalent to the cost of two nuclear submarines. Four of each subtype will be constructed in China and Karachi, Pakistan, with first delivery no sooner than 2020 and completion of the contract by 2028.*

*However, it’s unclear what type of submarines these will turn out to be. Several of official reports appear to state that these are derivatives of the Type 032, but most experts believe they are instead down-scaled version of the ship-hunting Yuan-class submarine. However, some descriptions of the S-30 imply it is based on the Type 032, with an intended armament of four Pakistani-developed Babur nuclear-capable land-attack cruise missiles as well as retaining two SLBM tubes.*

Nuclear submarines still possess advantages over AIP-powered diesel submarines. Deterrence patrols tend to be lengthy, so the three-to-four-month endurance of nuclear subs still handily beats the thirty days of a Stirling-powered sub. And even though the ability to remain underwater for months at a time may be less vital for coastal defense subs, nuclear submarines can also sustain higher underwater speeds over long distances.

Still, most navies across the world aren’t like United States, which operates submarines thousands of miles across the length of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Countries like China, Pakistan or, hypothetically, Iran or Saudi Arabia, have naval security interests closer to home and don’t need their submarines to cross vast oceans.

*Particularly for countries like Pakistan with access to nuclear arms, a missile-armed diesel submarine could offer an affordable means to threaten nuclear retaliation that would remain very difficult to counter, potentially starting a new worrisome trend in nuclear proliferation.*

*Sébastien Roblin holds a Master’s Degree in Conflict Resolution from Georgetown University and served as a university instructor for the Peace Corps in China

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...addest-conventional-submarine-18629?page=show

@Horus @Rashid Mahmood @cirr @Deino @fatman17 @Oscar @Arsalan *

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Akasa

The next series of SSKs under construction is the Type 039C, which (according to suggestive schematics) would incorporate X-shaped stern control surfaces & other upgrades. Several units are already being built at a shipyard.


----------



## nang2

it is not a bad idea at all.


----------



## Naif al Hilali

Zarvan said:


> *More recently, Beijing confirmed in October that it would sell eight Project S-26 and Project S-30 submarines for $4–5 billion—a price roughly equivalent to the cost of two nuclear submarines. Four of each subtype will be constructed in China and Karachi, Pakistan, with first delivery no sooner than 2020 and completion of the contract by 2028.*
> 
> *However, it’s unclear what type of submarines these will turn out to be. Several of official reports appear to state that these are derivatives of the Type 032, but most experts believe they are instead down-scaled version of the ship-hunting Yuan-class submarine. However, some descriptions of the S-30 imply it is based on the Type 032, with an intended armament of four Pakistani-developed Babur nuclear-capable land-attack cruise missiles as well as retaining two SLBM tubes. *


Great News. Thanks


----------



## haidian

*China Has Built the Biggest and Baddest Conventional Submarine in the World*
*



*


----------



## cirr

*Researchers working on a new system they hope will be more effective in hiding submarines from detection under the sea*

PUBLISHED : Monday, 05 December, 2016, 9:05am
UPDATED : Monday, 05 December, 2016, 10:24am








Chinese scientists are developing a technique they hope will be able to make submarines invisible to sonar detection under the sea.

If successful, it would ultimately involve covering subs with special rings made of aluminium alloys.

The researchers at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing and Huazhong University of Science and Technology in Wuhan in Hubei province experimented with rings about 14 cm across and with periodically etched grooves.

They found that sound waves were guided around the rings rather than bouncing back, which would allow them to be traced by sonar detectors.






The grooves were able to steer the sound waves in a set direction like cars travelling on an expressway.

The researchers published details of their work earlier this month in the scientific journal _Nature Communications_.

‘Underwater Great Wall’: Chinese firm proposes building network of submarine detectors to boost nation’s defence

The scientists were originally using the technology - called a topological insulator - to control the movement of electrons to reduce heating in computer chips, but they later realised it also had applications for sound waves.

Several rings could work together to direct sound waves in almost any direction, potentially hiding a submarine from sonar in the future.

Other researchers have been working on the technology, but the Beijing and Huazhong researchers said their system was the simplest.

A research team at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore constructed an array of cylinders creating similar effects last years, but they had to spin at high speed, about 400 revolutions per second, to keep the sound on a strict course.

The Singaporean team also claimed their technology could help submarines evade sonar detection, but planting a large number of spinning cylinders over the hull of the craft could prove an engineering nightmare.

“Our method is simpler. It does not require moving parts,” said one author of the Chinese paper, who asked not to be named.

However, he added that many problems remained to be solved before the technology can be used outside the laboratory on submarines or to reduce noise on aircraft.






Submarines now use used a rubber or plastic coating to absorb sound waves produced by sonar.

The anechoic tiles also reduce noises produced from inside the sub, but the technology is old, first used by the Germany navy in U-boats during the second world war.

New materials have been developed over the decades to increase the absorption rate, but a powerful and sensitive sonar system can still pick up traces of vessels.

China and US in silent fight for supremacy beneath waves of South China Sea

Yang Jing, associate professor of acoustics at Nanjing University, said the topological insulator could trigger a revolution in acoustic studies.

“It has borrowed many ideas from quantum physics, which shed new light on sound problems,” she said.

But the technology was still in its infancy with major problems remaining, said Yang, who was not involved in the rings research.

For instance, a submarine has to remain invisible from sonar beamed from different directions and at different frequencies.

The rings, however, are now only able to deflect sound waves coming from certain angles and within certain frequencies.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...arch-might-help-shield-submarines#add-comment

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## 星海军事

> 新常潜线或重启—— The production line of new conventional submarine was restarted.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


>



Do I have it correctly: the current Type 039B is being launched while the newer Type 039C (depicted with the X-shaped rudders) is still in construction? Are multiple 039C being built?


----------



## hk299792458

SinoSoldier said:


> Do I have it correctly: the current Type 039B is being launched while the newer Type 039C (depicted with the X-shaped rudders) is still in construction? Are multiple 039C being built?



It seems that at lesast 3 *Type 039C* (??) are being constructed now. 2 already launched and 1 still in dry dock.






Henri K.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Akasa

hk299792458 said:


> It seems that at lesast 3 *Type 039C* (??) are being constructed now. 2 already launched and 1 still in dry dock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henri K.



Interesting ... so the Type 039C do *not* have the X-shaped rudder arrangement (unlike what is posted in the photo).


----------



## 星海军事

hk299792458 said:


> It seems that at lesast 3 *Type 039C* (??) are being constructed now. 2 already launched and 1 still in dry dock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henri K.



Latest batch of 039B

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> Latest batch of 039B



Are the Type 039C (ones with X-shaped rudder arrangement) in construction? Do they even exist at all?


----------



## dingyibvs

SinoSoldier said:


> Do I have it correctly: the current Type 039B is being launched while the newer Type 039C (depicted with the X-shaped rudders) is still in construction? Are multiple 039C being built?



It says that a certain production line has been idle for 3 years now after producing the last batch of 039Bs, but recently there's news that a certain new type of conventional sub is beginning construction, indicating that this production line is being restarted.

I think it's hinting that the 039C has started construction.


----------



## Akasa

dingyibvs said:


> It says that a certain production line has been idle for 3 years now after producing the last batch of 039Bs, but recently there's news that a certain new type of conventional sub is beginning construction, indicating that this production line is being restarted.
> 
> I think it's hinting that the 039C has started construction.



The restarted construction could be referring to the recently-launched 039Bs, though.


----------



## grey boy 2

Some interesting data

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

095 already in progress, new production facility for 096 (ZT微博 木边鱼095可能已经在老线开工，新产房是为096准备的（二次更新，土匪说09)



*5不会有泵推，X尾舵）*

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> 095 already in progress, new production facility for 096 (ZT微博 木边鱼095可能已经在老线开工，新产房是为096准备的（二次更新，土匪说09)
> 
> 
> 
> *5不会有泵推，X尾舵）*



What does "in progress" mean in this context? Is the Type 09-V already under construction?


----------



## grey boy 2

SinoSoldier said:


> What does "in progress" mean in this context? Is the Type 09-V already under construction?



Yes, as many as 10 are under construction, great observation

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Yes, as many as 10 are under construction, great observation



10 under construction? That doesn't sound very realistic, especially if the facilities are brand new.


----------



## grey boy 2

CCTV: 093 nuclear attack submarine patrolling the Indian ocean (踏足印度后院！曝中国093核潜艇在印度洋护航)

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

039A2

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## yusheng



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## grey boy 2

2 094A spotted (new Type 094A ballistic nuclear missile submarine with an equally new missile that can hit the United States when fired from the South China Sea.)

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

grey boy 2 said:


> 2 094A spotted (new Type 094A ballistic nuclear missile submarine with an equally new missile that can hit the United States when fired from the South China Sea.)



@UKBengali

The two remaining Type 094G boats are now on the sea trial and will soon join the PLAN.

Soon China will have eight Type 094 SSBNs on service with 4 basic models and 4 improved models. The Type 096 is also around the corner, and it should be expected to match the Columbia class SSBN in many aspects.

The new SLBM is likely the JL-3, and it should expect to surpass the Trident II D5 missile. The diameter of the Trident II D5 missile is 2.11 meters, while the diameter of the JL-3 is expected to be around 2.25-2.35 meters. The JL-3 is also using much more advanced solid propellant than the NEPE-75.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## grey boy 2

09X

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## 52051

According to CCTV, Type 093B submarine is not a traditional AIP submarine anymore, instead it is equiped with advanced minimized nuclear reactor (low power nuclear-reactor-based systems also known as the Autonomous Marine Power Source, or AMPS), which is the most advanced type of AIP.

Such system greatly enhanced the submarine's range and cruise speed whilst maintain quietness comparing to tradtional nuclear submarine.

http://mil.youth.cn/jmsj/201611/t20161121_8866264.htm
http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2348199&extra=page=1

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## GeHAC

Dude，that‘s a 093

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Beast

GeHAC said:


> Dude，that‘s a 093


He accidentally put 093B to 039B.


----------



## ahojunk

Okay, I have fixed up the title. It is now 093B.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Star Expedition

We need 100 such big fishes


----------



## Hassan Guy

http://www.janes.com/article/66691/china-resumes-production-of-yuan-class-submarines

*China resumes production of Yuan-class submarines*
*Andrew Tate, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
05 January 2017





Images posted on Chinese online forums in December show three new Yuan-class (Type 039B) patrol submarines being fitted out in the water at the Wuchang Shipyard in Wuhan, central China: a clear indication that China has resumed production of these diesel-electric boats after a near-three-year hiatus.

The latest of the three submarines appears to have been launched around 12 December, according to online forums.

The initial variant of the Yuan class (Type 039A) entered service in 2006. Overall length is 77 m with a beam of 8.4 m, displacing around 2,700 tonnes when on the surface and 3,600 tonnes when dived, according to _IHS Jane's Fighting Ships_.

Equipped with six 533 mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes, weapon loads are likely to be a mix of anti-ship missiles, such as the YJ-82, and heavyweight torpedoes, such as the Yu-6.

Although not officially confirmed, most sources believe that the Yuan class has a conventional diesel-electric configuration supplemented with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system.

The performance of the AIP is unknown but it should be expected to extend the interval between when the submarine has to run the diesel engines to charge the batteries from hours to days. This will enable it to maintain a minimal noise signature and thus makes it more difficult to detect.

The hulls of the Yuan class are clad with anechoic tiles, to minimise any return echoes when pinged by active sonars.

Establishing an accurate picture of the number of submarines built for China's People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) presents some difficulties. The PLAN is more secretive about its submarine force than about other platforms and the absence of pennant numbers in most photographs makes identification and monitoring the build/disposal programme susceptible to errors.

Most sources agree, however, that the first four Yuan-class submarines were of the same design (Type 039A) and entered service between 2006 and 2010.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Suff Shikan



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Surya 1

Why was it stopped?


----------



## Shotgunner51

ahojunk said:


> Okay, I have fixed up the title. It is now 093B.



If it's 093 series, that's SSN, what's AIP doing with it?
Let's check sources, see if it's new AIP for 039B.


----------



## Pangu

Well, some said that similarily between the A & these new B variant is only skin-deep. I likely.


----------



## Makarena

Surya 1 said:


> Why was it stopped?



IMHO, it mean there is new tech upgrade, they're probably waiting for the tech to mature before start building the next batch. Just like the LPD 071.


----------



## 艹艹艹

Surya 1 said:


> Why was it stopped?


*Because they are tired and Need rest
*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ahojunk

Shotgunner51 said:


> If it's 093 series, that's SSN, what's AIP doing with it?
> Let's check sources, see if it's new AIP for 039B.


.
I think you are right and I am no expert with military stuff.

From what I can gather, it's 039B with AIP.

After you have checked sources, please feel free to reverse back to 039B.

Thanks.


----------



## Surya 1

long_ said:


> *Because they are tired and Need rest*



I hope they will not get tired in war.


----------



## 艹艹艹

Surya 1 said:


> I hope they will not get tired in war.


*You can test it.*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Surya 1

long_ said:


> *You can test it.*



First of all let it come without getting tired once again. We will test it. Do you know that our one kilo class tested (Spied) two of your subs and they did not know that they are spied upon unless your plane detected our kilo class. You may never know that because it will banned in Pakistan media.


----------



## 艹艹艹

Surya 1 said:


> First of all let it come without getting tired once again. We will test it. Do you know that our one kilo class tested (Spied) two of your subs and they did not know that they are spied upon unless your plane detected our kilo class. You may never know that because it will banned in Pakistan media.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## xunzi

It is often difficult to judge how advance how AIP system is with lack of information. But with our leadership in commercial battery in car and mobile, it is safe to say the military has the most advanced AIP in the world now. In fact our supercharged battery is the fastest and best now so those advancee will inevitably transfer to the PLAN. O93b is truly a killer in the ocean so much that the India navy are clueless when we operate in the Indian ocean and only spot it when it surfaced for resupply and then cry. Lol

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shotgunner51

ahojunk said:


> .
> I think you are right and I am no expert with military stuff.
> 
> From what I can gather, it's 039B with AIP.
> 
> After you have checked sources, please feel free to reverse back to 039B.
> 
> Thanks.




I haven't found any sources regarding this news yet, but I don't think this has anything to do with 093B (or 093G), which is not in active duty but a testbed for 095 SSN. For 093B, see these






New techs tested on 093B/093G do not include AIP, these are:

Pump Jet Propulsion 泵喷推进系统 (despite Shenyang Machine Tool Plant has been successful in precision tooling of 7-blade propeller for the Song/Yuan-class SSK's, and 093-class SSN)

New Materials (Hyper Strength Steel) 新材料(超高强度钢)
Hybrid Single & Double-Hull Structure 单双混合壳体结构
New Comprehensive Vibration Reduction Floating Raft 新型综合减震浮筏
VLS for Cruise Missile 巡航导弹垂直发射管
Third Gen Nuclear Reactor 第三代潜艇反应堆, HTGR, supported by new bearings, new thermoelectric converter
This AMPS is an alternative to other AIP like CCD, fuel cell or sterling engine, it is used for SSK only, so I believe 039B is very likely. There are cons of AMPS say higher costs, IR signature, radiation, etc., but pros are also very obvious, say it gives far more range and depth SSK to operate.






CCTV pic of interior of 039B, see their protection suit, here comes the speculation of AMPS-AIP. It should be one of many tech upgrades that 039B has implemented, compared to its predecessor 039A.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## MICA

any idea who bought these ?


----------



## Akasa

Shotgunner51 said:


> I haven't found any sources regarding this news yet, but I don't think this has anything to do with 093B (or 093G), which is not in active duty but a testbed for 095 SSN. For 093B, see these
> 
> View attachment 366435
> 
> 
> New techs tested on 093B/093G do not include AIP, these are:
> 
> Pump Jet Propulsion 泵喷推进系统 (despite Shenyang Machine Tool Plant has been successful in precision tooling of 7-blade propeller for the Song/Yuan-class SSK's, and 093-class SSN)
> 
> New Materials (Hyper Strength Steel) 新材料(超高强度钢)
> Hybrid Single & Double-Hull Structure 单双混合壳体结构
> New Comprehensive Vibration Reduction Floating Raft 新型综合减震浮筏
> VLS for Cruise Missile 巡航导弹垂直发射管
> Third Gen Nuclear Reactor 第三代潜艇反应堆, HTGR, supported by new bearings, new thermoelectric converter
> This AMPS is an alternative to other AIP like CCD, fuel cell or sterling engine, it is used for SSK only, so I believe 039B is very likely. There are cons of AMPS say higher costs, IR signature, radiation, etc., but pros are also very obvious, say it gives far more range and depth SSK to operate.
> 
> View attachment 366437
> 
> 
> CCTV pic of interior of 039B, see their protection suit, here comes the speculation of AMPS-AIP. It should be one of many tech upgrades that 039B has implemented, compared to its predecessor 039A.



Is there evidence that the 093B has pump jet propulsion?


----------



## Salty_Waters

yusheng said:


> View attachment 361454



What will you state by that picture? that is not a YUAN, that is not a chinese yard at all.

What you see in that image, is the launching ceremony of a LADA/St.Peterburg class at Svedzdochka Verf.RUSSIA

So that picture is very much missleading in that uncommented matter. 

But nice try...


----------



## Akasa

MICA said:


> any idea who bought these ?
> View attachment 366441





Salty_Waters said:


> What will you state by that picture? that is not a YUAN, that is not a chinese yard at all.
> 
> What you see in that image, is the launching ceremony of a LADA/St.Peterburg class at Svedzdochka Verf.RUSSIA
> 
> So that picture is very much missleading in that uncommented matter.
> 
> But nice try...



These are Type 039B SSKs resuming production for the PLAN. The Lada class has not yet entered production.


----------



## Salty_Waters

SinoSoldier said:


> These are Type 039B SSKs resuming production for the PLAN. The Lada class has not yet entered production.



Very funny, and why Project 677 or LADA-Class first unit is commisioned 2010, launched in 2004 and layed down1997? An easy to gather information.Cuz it is well spread in this strange thing called internet.

If you question the serial production of LADA/Project 677, I would agree.

The picture shown by yusheng is from december 2013, at launch ceremony in St. Petersburg. Once I have rights to post pictures, I will give additional images, that you can easily find yourself by googling launch ceremony project 677...

WUHAN and CXD, the yards involved in YUAN production have no bricks covered walls. Something you should find out by yourself. Happy Hunting. 


but again, nice try.


----------



## Akasa

Salty_Waters said:


> Very funny, and why Project 677 or LADA-Class first unit is commisioned 2010, launched in 2004 and layed down1997? An easy to gather information.Cuz it is well spread in this strange thing called internet.
> 
> If you question the serial production of LADA/Project 677, I would agree.
> 
> The picture shown by yusheng is from december 2013, at launch ceremony in St. Petersburg. Once I have rights to post pictures, I will give additional images, that you can easily find yourself by googling launch ceremony project 677...
> 
> WUHAN and CXD, the yards involved in YUAN production have no bricks covered walls. Something you should find out by yourself. Happy Hunting.
> 
> 
> but again, nice try.



A single unit of the Lada has been launched, but thus far no more boats have been completed, either due to disinterest from Russia's armed forces or problems with the vessel. I stand with my point; the Lada is not in production.

Regarding the yard photo, it was my mistake. I thought you were referring to MICA's photo in post 276; my bad.


----------



## mb444

Hassan Guy said:


> http://www.janes.com/article/66691/china-resumes-production-of-yuan-class-submarines
> 
> View attachment 366367
> 
> Images posted on Chinese online forums in December show three new Yuan-class (Type 039B) patrol submarines being fitted out in the water at the Wuchang Shipyard in Wuhan, central China: a clear indication that China has resumed production of these diesel-electric boats after a near-three-year hiatus.
> 
> The latest of the three submarines appears to have been launched around 12 December, according to online forums.
> 
> The initial variant of the Yuan class (Type 039A) entered service in 2006. Overall length is 77 m with a beam of 8.4 m, displacing around 2,700 tonnes when on the surface and 3,600 tonnes when dived, according to _IHS Jane's Fighting Ships_.
> 
> Equipped with six 533 mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes, weapon loads are likely to be a mix of anti-ship missiles, such as the YJ-82, and heavyweight torpedoes, such as the Yu-6.
> 
> Although not officially confirmed, most sources believe that the Yuan class has a conventional diesel-electric configuration supplemented with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system.
> 
> The performance of the AIP is unknown but it should be expected to extend the interval between when the submarine has to run the diesel engines to charge the batteries from hours to days. This will enable it to maintain a minimal noise signature and thus makes it more difficult to detect.
> 
> The hulls of the Yuan class are clad with anechoic tiles, to minimise any return echoes when pinged by active sonars.
> 
> Establishing an accurate picture of the number of submarines built for China's People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) presents some difficulties. The PLAN is more secretive about its submarine force than about other platforms and the absence of pennant numbers in most photographs makes identification and monitoring the build/disposal programme susceptible to errors.
> 
> Most sources agree, however, that the first four Yuan-class submarines were of the same design (Type 039A) and entered service between 2006 and 2010.




Excellent.... I am sure Bangladesh Navy is already having talks for atleast 2 of these as we bed in the new submarine arm of BN with the mings recently delivered.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Salty_Waters

SinoSoldier said:


> Is there evidence that the 093B has pump jet propulsion?



As far as I know 093B has no pump jet. But for sure it is the next logic step to equip 093B with it. It would be interesting to see at leat a testbed for pump jet. In 2010 there where artist impressions of type 032-class with pump jet, but when they launched, it had a conventional propeller. I really like to know how much effort they made with pj so far.


----------



## grey boy 2

094A SSBN

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## grey boy 2

More on the 094A SSBN

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## 52051

The second type 095 SSN is under construction now:






http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2350913&extra=page=1

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Akasa

52051 said:


> The second type 095 SSN is under construction now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2350913&extra=page=1



How do we know this isn't another 093B? Is the poster credible?


----------



## 52051

SinoSoldier said:


> How do we know this isn't another 093B? Is the poster credible?



Quite, and his words is consistent with the Governor of Liaoning Province (who is happen to be the general manager of China ship industry corp. before become Governor of Liaoning)'s speech regarding 4th generation SSN under construction in Liaoning years ago.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

52051 said:


> Quite, and his words is consistent with the Governor of Liaoning Province (who is happen to be the general manager of China ship industry corp. before become Governor of Liaoning)'s speech regarding 4th generation SSN under construction in Liaoning years ago.



Interesting... what other "predictions" has he made? The reason for my skepticism is that the new facility for SSN construction is not yet operational (as per satellite images).


----------



## 52051

SinoSoldier said:


> Interesting... what other "predictions" has he made? The reason for my skepticism is that the new facility for SSN construction is not yet operational (as per satellite images).



When is the last time you saw China's nuclear powered submarines underconstruction?

They have inhouse dock for SSN/SSBN since decades ago, not to mention the new facility (which should be the world largest one) for building SSN/SSBNs.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 帅的一匹

It said China already produced steel reeling machine max for 13 meters, which means we can massively produce type 096.

10 type 096 is enough deterrent for USA's nuclear blackmail.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Han Patriot

Things are getting interesting, the US can't match Chinese mass production. If we can fix the technology and type, we can out produce the states. Their overhead cost are just too prohibitive for mass production.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> It said China already produced steel reeling machine max for 13 meters, which means we can massively produce type 096.
> 
> 10 type 096 is enough deterrent for USA's nuclear blackmail.




Can we at first wait for the Type 095 before we start dreaming on the Type 096 ??


----------



## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Can we at first wait for the Type 095 before we start dreaming on the Type 096 ??


Deino, 096 and 095 will happen concurrently. It's like 093 and 094, one ssn n one ssbn

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Deino

Thanks ! I thought the 095 is also an SSBN


----------



## Salty_Waters

Han Warrior said:


> Things are getting interesting, the US can't match Chinese mass production. If we can fix the technology and type, we can out produce the states. Their overhead cost are just too prohibitive for mass production.



It is not about mass production. And it is not about the overhead. Once a specific demanding technology comes into play, the production and the utilization of that technology becomes expensive. As long as simple educated low ranked personell is able to handle the ship and and the production, China can outmass the high tech navies. But when sophisticated technology comes into play, China applies the same rules. One more problem, China is doing it in a way to fast time.

For example. Simple diesel engines late 80ies style needed some hands to put on and some good old technicans that are used to mechanical tools. Thats the average cost job. The new engines, are connected to computers, stuffed with sensors and all that high tech stuff. What do they need to get maintained? not that simpe mechanics, you need mechatronic experts. Maintenance has become an expensive part.

Sophisticated technology is well known, and the price to pay, western navies are aware of. The big question is, will china go that way? Can China go the technological step, and keep the costs low? I have my doubts.


----------



## jkroo

Salty_Waters said:


> It is not about mass production. And it is not about the overhead. Once a specific demanding technology comes into play, the production and the utilization of that technology becomes expensive. As long as simple educated low ranked personell is able to handle the ship and and the production, China can outmass the high tech navies. But when sophisticated technology comes into play, China applies the same rules. One more problem, China is doing it in a way to fast time.
> 
> For example. Simple diesel engines late 80ies style needed some hands to put on and some good old technicans that are used to mechanical tools. Thats the average cost job. The new engines, are connected to computers, stuffed with sensors and all that high tech stuff. What do they need to get maintained? not that simpe mechanics, you need mechatronic experts. Maintenance has become an expensive part.
> 
> Sophisticated technology is well known, and the price to pay, western navies are aware of. The big question is, will china go that way? Can China go the technological step, and keep the costs low? I have my doubts.



Your 'doubts' is also my doubts on you. lol

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## terranMarine

jkroo said:


> Your 'doubts' is also my doubts on you. lol



That i do not doubt because we share your doubt as well

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## GS Zhou

Salty_Waters said:


> Sophisticated technology is well known, and the price to pay, western navies are aware of. The big question is, will china go that way? Can China go the technological step, and keep the costs low? I have my doubts.


Let me show you the cost comparison between China's Type 052D destroyer vs. US Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) class Aegis destroyers.


*China Type 052D destroyer*
The PLAN Genral Yin Zhuo once mentioned in a press conference that, the per tonnage cost of 052D is RMB 500,000. 

We know that 052D is about 7,500ton, so cost per unit will be 7,500 * 0.5 million = 3,750 million RMB, or $ 535 million;

link and screenshot to Yin's comments
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20140423/40006172_0.shtml








*US AB-class destroyer*
The US Navy 2011 budget report states that, one AB-class destroyer (Flight IIA design) would cost $2,028.7 million

Link and screenshot to the US Navy budget report
http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc98051/m1/1/high_res_d/RL32109_2011Apr19.pdf





So $535 million of 052D vs. $2 billion of AB-class. The superb cost advantage of China even in high-tech stuff be proved!!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Han Patriot

Salty_Waters said:


> It is not about mass production. And it is not about the overhead. Once a specific demanding technology comes into play, the production and the utilization of that technology becomes expensive. As long as simple educated low ranked personell is able to handle the ship and and the production, China can outmass the high tech navies. But when sophisticated technology comes into play, China applies the same rules. One more problem, China is doing it in a way to fast time.
> 
> For example. Simple diesel engines late 80ies style needed some hands to put on and some good old technicans that are used to mechanical tools. Thats the average cost job. The new engines, are connected to computers, stuffed with sensors and all that high tech stuff. What do they need to get maintained? not that simpe mechanics, you need mechatronic experts. Maintenance has become an expensive part.
> 
> Sophisticated technology is well known, and the price to pay, western navies are aware of. The big question is, will china go that way? Can China go the technological step, and keep the costs low? I have my doubts.


I have a feeling you are not from the engineering industry.


----------



## Salty_Waters

jkroo said:


> Your 'doubts' is also my doubts on you. lol


well, as long as this is your only problem . But maybe you find some time to think about my argument. And if you have a serious idea why I might be wrong, be my guest. If not, I take you as the first one not to take serious in that forum. 



Han Patriot said:


> I have a feeling you are not from the engineering industry.


feelings... that strange things that outweight ideas and arguments. 



GS Zhou said:


> Let me show you the cost comparison between China's Type 052D destroyer vs. US Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) class Aegis destroyers.
> 
> 
> *China Type 052D destroyer*
> The PLAN Genral Yin Zhuo once mentioned in a press conference that, the per tonnage cost of 052D is RMB 500,000.
> 
> We know that 052D is about 7,500ton, so cost per unit will be 7,500 * 0.5 million = 3,750 million RMB, or $ 535 million;
> 
> link and screenshot to Yin's comments
> http://news.ifeng.com/a/20140423/40006172_0.shtml
> 
> View attachment 368720
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *US AB-class destroyer*
> The US Navy 2011 budget report states that, one AB-class destroyer (Flight IIA design) would cost $2,028.7 million
> 
> Link and screenshot to the US Navy budget report
> http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc98051/m1/1/high_res_d/RL32109_2011Apr19.pdf
> 
> View attachment 368723
> 
> So $535 million of 052D vs. $2 billion of AB-class. The superb cost advantage of China even in high-tech stuff be proved!!


Well, not to get me wrong. 1st of all, I was not only talking about aquisition costs. I was talking about the total cost of ownership, meaning all expenses through lifespan of a system. For navy vessels, more of 2/3 of costs occure in lifespan. I have not said, that china can build cheaper ships. I said, that china has to pay much higher costs once they use sophisticated (automation) technology (f.e.).Comparing a 052D with Arleigh Burke IIA is likecomparing apples and pears. At least when it comes to the costs. 

But well, discussing free market rules with comunist is a little bit of wasting time.


----------



## jkroo

Salty_Waters said:


> well, as long as this is your only problem . But maybe you find some time to think about my argument. And if you have a serious idea why I might be wrong, be my guest. If not, I take you as the first one not to take serious in that forum.


LOL. So you just can't comprehend my post. It's OK.

But seriously, No one will take it serious that a post without photos, data, figures, tables or charts. It will even be treated as seriously bullsh!t in China and no serious arguments will come. lol.

So take it easy and idea expressing in an online forum is nothing. Just fact rules.

BTW, Feel free to talk and act as a smart a** if you will. lol.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bussard Ramjet

GS Zhou said:


> Let me show you the cost comparison between China's Type 052D destroyer vs. US Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) class Aegis destroyers.
> 
> 
> *China Type 052D destroyer*
> The PLAN Genral Yin Zhuo once mentioned in a press conference that, the per tonnage cost of 052D is RMB 500,000.
> 
> We know that 052D is about 7,500ton, so cost per unit will be 7,500 * 0.5 million = 3,750 million RMB, or $ 535 million;
> 
> link and screenshot to Yin's comments
> http://news.ifeng.com/a/20140423/40006172_0.shtml
> 
> View attachment 368720
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *US AB-class destroyer*
> The US Navy 2011 budget report states that, one AB-class destroyer (Flight IIA design) would cost $2,028.7 million
> 
> Link and screenshot to the US Navy budget report
> http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc98051/m1/1/high_res_d/RL32109_2011Apr19.pdf
> 
> View attachment 368723
> 
> So $535 million of 052D vs. $2 billion of AB-class. The superb cost advantage of China even in high-tech stuff be proved!!




And are AB class and type 052D at a similar level?

I am asking seriously. I am new to this stuff. Please cite some reliable sources.


----------



## nang2

Salty_Waters said:


> well, as long as this is your only problem . But maybe you find some time to think about my argument. And if you have a serious idea why I might be wrong, be my guest. If not, I take you as the first one not to take serious in that forum.
> 
> 
> feelings... that strange things that outweight ideas and arguments.
> 
> 
> Well, not to get me wrong. 1st of all, I was not only talking about aquisition costs. I was talking about the total cost of ownership, meaning all expenses through lifespan of a system. For navy vessels, more of 2/3 of costs occure in lifespan. I have not said, that china can build cheaper ships. I said, that china has to pay much higher costs once they use sophisticated (automation) technology (f.e.).Comparing a 052D with Arleigh Burke IIA is likecomparing apples and pears. At least when it comes to the costs.
> 
> But well, discussing free market rules with comunist is a little bit of wasting time.


be careful. not every Chinese is a communist. just like not every American or German is a fan for free market.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Salty_Waters said:


> you are absolutely right. My apologies to all open minded and well educated chinese that felt offended by calling them communists.
> 
> And those three jokers, posting high level replies, I am stiil waiting for an argument. your feelings are clear now.


Your Scorpene doesn't even have a torpedo to fire. Don't trolling here and ruin this thread.

It's a thread about Chinese submarine, not Chinese communist.



Bussard Ramjet said:


> And are AB class and type 052D at a similar level?
> 
> I am asking seriously. I am new to this stuff. Please cite some reliable sources.


As a grown up, you can check it yourself in Google.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Salty_Waters

Bussard Ramjet said:


> And are AB class and type 052D at a similar level?
> 
> I am asking seriously. I am new to this stuff. Please cite some reliable sources.



*To be fair, this is leading off topic... so just that reply on that, after it I wont go on on DD's here.*

To compare an AB with a Type 052D, is like comparing apples with pears. 

main gun, allomost the same
VLS: 1/3 more capacity at AB, MK41 is hot launched v 52D VLS is cold launched (need for cold launch booster)
Main reason, why an AB and a 052D can't be compared, is the Aegis-System. AB is able to handle automaticly +100's of surface, subsurface and areal targets and designate threats with a special counter measure by directing connected units on that targets. That's something called integrated automated warfare. Something, China is still lacking for some years ahead. Something you can't apply to your ship by making an update with an USB stick. 

AB's are, to say it simple: swimming computers, with all sensors and weapons integrated into the ships architecture. 052D's have computers, that assist naval officers in doing the job, that an arleigh burke can do autonomusly. AB's are doing their job by integration into the network of a fleet, where computers can decide what is the most effective answere to the thread. That's why Aegis is the first system that allows an effective ballistic missile defence. 
Maybe 055 will have some features, that allow to say, that they are Aegis-Type DDG/CG, but the 052D are not. 

So thank you for your question, that gets me back to my argument before. If fanboys like it or not, there the higher acquisition costs and the operational cost come from. The systems are expensive to build, whatsoever low your wages are. The maintenance needs high educated personell (electic engineers, informatic engineers), sophisticated tools, and expensive spare parts. So no product for mass production, and no product that can easily be outnumbered. But let me get back to your question.

At least one minor difference, but one that pays when things get hot: more than 70 years of naval operation experience (expensive and tragic lessons learned) are incorporated into ships design and surviveability, leading to massive differences in damage control and fire fighting systems of both classes. I had the chance to get aboard of an 054A (quite nice design, a good ship). But looking at the damage control /fire fighting system gives me a clear idea of where PLAN is rite now and what they still have to learn with next generation of navel vessels. 052D was constructed in the same time like 054A, so same operational standards are the baseline for design requirements. 

To be fair, PLAN has an incredible speed by developing it's actual fleet (i really like it). And for sure it will have a fleet, that is head to head with the USN within the 21st century. But be aware, there is a price to pay for a fast development, there is a price to pay for having the most advanced technology.

But finaly, let'z get back to the topic.



wanglaokan said:


> Your Scorpene doesn't even have a torpedo to fire. Don't trolling here and ruin this thread.
> 
> It's a thread about Chinese submarine, not Chinese communist.
> 
> 
> As a grown up, you can check it yourself in Google.




Yeah, guy it is about chinese submarine, that's the point you forgot by posting your provocative first answere to my costs argument (you forgot the toppic)... and now, again you demonstrate the absence of knowledge: Scorpene is not our submarine. If you try that as "a grown up"  google it for yourself honey, you can easily figure out, that Germany has Type 212A submarine. One with a torpedo. But thank you for showing me your knowledge, now I know that: I needn't to take your posts serious.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Whatever it is, your home built France subs don't have torpedo to use.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## j20blackdragon

Salty_Waters said:


> That's something called integrated automated warfare. Something, China is still lacking for some years ahead.



How do you prove this statement? I don't necessarily agree or disagree with you. I'm just wondering how you would prove your claim.



Salty_Waters said:


> AB's are, to say it simple: swimming computers



I hope you realize a good number of Arleigh Burkes are still using the 1980s era AN/UYK-43 32-bit MILSPEC computer.




Only the ships with the full Baseline 9 upgrade will shed their 1980s AN/UYK-43 32-bit MILSPEC computers, completely strip out the ship’s combat information center and install a new series of commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) servers to process the targeting information from the ship’s SPY-1 air defense radar.

Moreover, I'm willing to guarantee the computers on an Aegis ship pale in comparison to the computers on this list.

https://www.top500.org/lists/2016/11/

China is also producing some of the best programmers.

https://www.cnet.com/news/which-country-has-the-best-programmers-hint-its-not-the-us/



Salty_Waters said:


> 052D's have computers, that assist naval officers in doing the job



Ok...



Salty_Waters said:


> that an arleigh burke can do autonomusly.



AI is the ultimate form of automation. China is leading here too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...0/13/china-has-now-eclipsed-us-in-ai-research



Salty_Waters said:


> AB's are doing their job by integration into the network of a fleet, where computers can decide what is the most effective answere to the thread.



Computers again?

https://www.top500.org/lists/2016/11/



Salty_Waters said:


> That's why Aegis is the first system that allows an effective ballistic missile defence.



Happened 7 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_anti-ballistic_missile_test

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## j20blackdragon

Don't believe that US Navy Aegis ships use standard off-the-shelf servers? I post additional evidence. But I encourage everyone to google and verify what I'm saying. 

_Engineers at [Lockheed Martin’s] Moorestown [facility in New Jersey] have been ripping out Aegis’ traditional military-grade computers and replacing them with cheaper, faster commercial computers such as IBM’s Blade server. Going to so-called “commercial off-the-shelf” computers means Aegis can be upgraded every time IBM comes out with a faster computer — say, every two or three years. This helps the Navy keep up with the ever-increasing pace of technological development. “We have not reached the limit of Aegis,” [Aegis engineer Alan] Ostrow says._

http://defensetech.org/2006/11/22/aegis-turns-20/

_The design of the Zumwalt solves that problem by using off-the-shelf hardware—mostly IBM blade servers running Red Hat Linux—and putting it in a ruggedized server room. Those ruggedized server rooms are called Electronic Modular Enclosures (EMEs), sixteen self-contained, mini data centers built by Raytheon._

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/the-navys-newest-warship-is-powered-by-linux/

*Navy Needs New Servers for Aegis Cruisers and Destroyers After Chinese Purchase of IBM Line*

https://news.usni.org/2015/05/05/na...destroyers-after-chinese-purchase-of-ibm-line

*U.S. Navy Looks to Replace IBM Servers for Security After Lenovo Purchase*

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-nav...for-security-after-lenovo-purchase-1432047582

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## samsara

*中國解決水下通信世界性難題, 或用於核潛艇提高二次核打擊能力*
_*China solves underwater communication issues worldwide, may use nuclear submarines to increase the second nuclear strike capability*_

Published on Jan 23, 2017





This year China will improve the real time monitoring of the West Pacific Ocean conditions of the deep observation, will technically solve the "worldwide problem" of the inaccessible depths of the sea waves transmitting data, so as to improve the marine environment and weather forecast accuracy, and the communication technology will also be used for nuclear-powered submarines carrying nuclear missiles. According to an article published by Japan's Sankei 6 titled "China will employ the deep sea data (transmission) for military matters" reports that ..., so the technique will be used to communicate with submarines, which is used in the military. New system is known as "the first kind of two-way communication with regard to the underwater submarine approach", in calm, the deep layer, can be in more than 10,000-meter distance between acoustic wireless communication, can meet the global communication needs of Chinese nuclear submarines. In addition, this technique can be used to record and monitor other submarine route, its collection of marine data will be used for anti-submarine warfare.

中國今年將完善能夠實時監測西太平洋海洋狀況的深海觀測網，將在技術上解決從電波難以到達的深海傳送數據的“世界性難題”，從而改善海洋環境和氣象預報準確度，且這項通信技術也將被用於搭載核導彈的核動力潛艇。據日本《產經新聞》6日發表的題為《中國要將深海數據用於軍事》的報導指出，中國這次潛標的布放深度與潛艇航行深度幾乎一致，因此這項技術會被用來與潛艇進行通信，即用於軍事。新系統被稱為“針對潛入水下的潛艇的首種雙向通訊方式”，在平靜的深水層，能在超過1萬米的距離間進行聲波無線通訊，可滿足中國核潛艇的全球通訊之用。此外，這項技術可被用來記錄和監視別國潛艇航線，其收集的海洋數據也會被用於反潛作戰。

　　巡邏在遠洋大海之中的潛艇與基地之間的通訊，尤其是執行全程遠程水下巡邏任務的核潛艇，是一大難題。在以前，這往往有兩大途徑，一是通過長波電台，二是通過興起時間並不長的藍綠激光，才能實現。但是在傳輸速度、接收深度、接收時間等方面均有特殊要求，而且在安全性上也較低，因此局限性也不小。比如使用最早最多的長波通訊吧，需要建造長度甚至可達數十或者數百公里的天線陣，才能滿足更遠距離的通訊要求。而同時，長時間潛航在300米以下的接收信息的潛艇也必須在收到約定簡短信號提醒後，在一定時間內浮起到特定的深度（30米）才能接收信號，而此時並不能發送信號，如需要向基地發送信號必須浮出水面或者使用浮標才能實現，且必須使用數十或者數百分鐘才能才能發送很簡單的信息數據，而此時潛艇的被發現概率大幅上升而安全性大大下降。

藍綠激光通訊雖然大幅改善了長波通訊的一些痼疾，比如在傳輸速率和穿透海水的深度上提升很多，相對來說也使潛艇更安全，保密性能也可滿足要求，但也存在受天氣的影響和依賴特種飛機與衛星的缺點，因此只有少數國家在使用。隨著更多國家擁有航程更遠的潛艇艦隊，比如巴西、日本、韓國、澳大利亞、以色列、巴基斯坦、印度等都在建立AIP或者核潛艇艦隊，它們對於潛艇遠程通訊的需求也集中體現出來，很多國家都在積極尋找更快傳輸速度和可隨時通訊的新技術。如今通過國內外的報導來看，中國已經走在了世界的前頭，成為世界上第一個成功解決潛艇巡航深度通訊技術的國家。

現在還不知道這項“針對潛入水下的潛艇的首種雙向通訊方式”是使用的傳統通訊方式還是不久前宣傳的量子通訊技術，但毫無疑問，該技術達到了可與潛深達500米，遠離基地10000千米以外水下平台實時通訊的問題。這項技術是在2016年實現的，相信軍用的類似技術應該更早應用於中國海軍的潛艇。這項技術的工作細節是這樣描述的：在水面上放置了一個數據實時傳輸的浮體，它與潛標通過無線和有線兩種方式連接。潛標將數據傳輸給浮體，浮體發射到衛星上，衛星就可以再反饋回陸地實驗室。而更先進的軍用版本的存在應該是毫無置疑的。在實際應用上，如今中國正在大力擴充核潛艇艦隊，093A/B、094B、095和096型核潛艇的巡邏距離正在逐步擴大，而新一代的AIP潛艇如039A、041和041A正在批量服役，上述這些潛艇均將遠赴東太平洋和印度洋甚至是大西洋執行遠程巡邏任務，而如果裝備了中國最新的潛艇通訊技術，那麼其意義無論怎麼描述都不為過。

　　最重要的是，此前有美國洛克希德·馬丁公司的工程師說，正在為美國潛艇研發類似技術。這家美國公司提出的解決辦法——當時尚在研發中——也是通過浮標讓潛艇與衛星間建立聯繫。這也就是說，目前美國還沒有這樣的技術，中國的技術實際上已走在美國之前，居於世界領先的位置。可以相信，這項尖端技術的應用，可以使得中國的二次核反擊能力獲得極大提升，更有利於中國遠洋海軍的真正成型。

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## grey boy 2



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## aliaselin

Collection of Chinese torpedo, mostly used by submarine

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## cirr

Nice New Year Gift.

Here is another one

Electromagnetic torpedo launcher in development

Reactions: Like Like:
15


----------



## shjliu

cirr said:


> Nice New Year Gift.
> 
> Here is another one
> 
> Electromagnetic torpedo launcher in development
> 
> View attachment 372589


I just read a news from China, they are going to install Electromagnetic torpedo in aircraft Carrier 003, that is for sure!


----------



## shhh

cirr said:


> Nice New Year Gift.
> 
> Here is another one
> 
> Electromagnetic torpedo launcher in development
> 
> View attachment 372589



Whats a torpedo launcher?
And what difference does electromagnetic make on it?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## aliaselin

Shaheer ul haq said:


> Whats a torpedo launcher?
> And what difference does electromagnetic make on it?


Electromagnetic launcher will not produce any bulb when firing a torpedo

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

094A

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## grey boy 2

3 new 039C spotted inside Wuchang shipyard (新春佳节，中国武昌造船厂内停泊着大量建造中的舰船，包括三艘039C型潜艇，两艘056轻型护卫舰，一艘中近海救助拖船和港作拖船。目前中国海军的各型舰艇都在全力建造下饺子，争取快速建成复合我国国防需求的强大海军。（来源：HSH sueread）)

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## cirr

095, 095.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

cirr said:


> 095, 095.



The old production line is building the Type 095 and the remaining Type 093B.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## grey boy 2



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831508041765826560

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Salty_Waters

aliaselin said:


> Collection of Chinese torpedo, mostly used by submarine
> View attachment 372408




Nice one: high confidential  

Let me guess why this excel tabular is so confidential, because it shows the Yu-6 Torpedo with a length of *7800 km*. That is crazy. But I bet, at least there will be one fanboy that claims China has a Submarine with the lenght of 7800 km, to fit in that torpedo... Yeah, funny high confidential release... rofl


----------



## jkroo

LMAO
Someone here is really crazy to die.
Wrong wording can be chewed for days. Just can't imagine what kind of mindset it is.

No mods remind or just let the pretty sour joke continue?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

jkroo said:


> LMAO
> Someone here is really crazy to die.
> Wrong wording can be chewed for days. Just can't imagine what kind of mindset it is.
> 
> No mods remind or just let the pretty sour joke continue?



One simply *intentionally agitates* some member(s) *to solicit more info than he's entitled to,* the one that *should not see the light at present!!* An OLD trick that only kids won't notice... moreover there's a pattern

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## onebyone

China's Bohai Shipyard has built a new large-scale plant to mass produce nuclear submarines.

Western production lines for the most part can only build one submarine at a time, and only the US is capable of building two submarines simultaneously, but China is now capable of building four submarines at one time.

China already has at least four type 094/094A ballistic missile submarines and at least five Type 093/093G attack submarines, so it is speculated that the new facility is to build the successor third-generation classes of Type 096 ballistic missile submarines and Type 095 attack submarines. The new submarines will be built using modular fabrication techniques. The projection is made that Chinese nuclear submarine production will double its rate within two to three years. 

China currently has about three submarine production lines and can build 5 to 6 submarines at one time. This would mean in three years China could be building ten to twelve submarines at one time.




_Type 094 submarine_

The Type 096 submarine is a SSBN (nuclear ballistic missile submarine) being developed for the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy Submarine Force. Official specifications are unknown. The Type 096 may carry 24 SLBMs, double the number carried by its predecessor, the Type 094. According to analysts, it could also feature a hull similar to Western SSBNs. As of January 2017, the Type 096 has yet to enter service.

The Type 095 submarine is a proposed class of third generation nuclear-powered attack submarines for the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) of China.

It is anticipated that Type 095 submarines will have a substantially reduced acoustic signature, within an improved hull type and pump jet propulsion system. Compared to the Type 093, the Type 095 will have a more advanced nuclear reactor, VLS tubes and greater number of advanced sensors such as new active/passive flank array sonar and low and high frequency towed sonar array. Additionally, it is also speculated that Type 095 submarines may act as a potential undersea escort for any future PLAN aircraft carrier task forces.

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/04/china-has-built-nuclear-submarine-mass.html

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## grey boy 2

Some more details

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Star Expedition

Only 1?
We need 10.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Stuttgart001

*Information from nextbigfuture , a USA website.*

China's Bohai Shipyard has built a new large-scale plant to mass produce nuclear submarines.

Western production lines of the most part can only build one submarine at a time, and only the US is capable of building two submarines simultaneously, but now China is capable of building four submarines at one time.

China already has at least 4 type 094/094A ballistic missile submarines and at least 5 type 093/093G attack submarines, so it is speculated that the new facility is to build the successor the third-generation classes of type 096 ballistic missile submarines and type 095 attack submarines. The new submarines will be built using modular fabrication techniques. The projection is made that Chinese nuclear submarine production will double its rate within two to three years.

China currently has about three submarine production lines and can build 5 to 6 submarines at one time. This would mean in three years China could be building ten to twelve submarines at one time.

The type 096 submarine is a SSBN being developed for the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy submarine force. Official specifications are unknown. The type 096 may carry 24 SLBMs, double the number carried by its predecessor, the type 094. According to analysts, it could also feature a hull similar to Western SSBNs. As of January 2017, the type 096 has yet to enter service.

The type 095 submarine is a proposed class of third generation nuclear-powered attack submarines for PLAN of China.

It is anticipated that the type 095 will have a substantially reduced acoustic signature within an improved hull type and pump jet propulsion system. Compared to type 093, the type 095 will have a more advanced nuclear reactor, VLS tubes and greater number of advanced sensors such as active/passive flank array sonar and low and high frequency towed sonar array. Additionally, it is also speculated that Type 095 may act as a potential undersea escort for any future PLAN aircraft carrier task forces.


----------



## Imran Khan

this can help to done quickly Pakistani order of 8 subs too ?


----------



## Reichsmarschall

Stuttgart001 said:


> The type 096 may carry 24 SLBMs


any chances of giving these babies to Pakistan??


----------



## lcloo

This factory in Bohai (North East China) is meant for nuclear powered submarines.

The one that builds conventional powered submarines for Pakistan is located in different location (Wuhan, Hubei province, Central China).

I don't think China is ready to export nuclear submarines yet, so no, Pakistan will not get these babies.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Chinese-Dragon

Narendra Trump said:


> any chances of giving these babies to Pakistan??



It is difficult to transfer platforms like SSBNs.

But the AIP submarines that China is currently transfering to Pakistan have the capability to fire Cruise missiles, which gives you a nuclear second-strike ability at a range of around 1000-2000+ km. Which should be enough for Pakistan's needs.

China's Type 096 SSBN is designed for global range, i.e. the ability to deliver a MIRV payload to any point on the planet.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Stuttgart001

Chinese-Dragon said:


> It is difficult to transfer platforms like SSBNs.
> 
> China's Type 096 SSBN is designed for global range, i.e. the ability to deliver a MIRV payload to any point on the planet.


Right. This baby is an utimate weapon designed to be used in a world-ending nuclear war. With it, you can deter any country in the world. So Uncle Sam will do anything he could stop it from being handed to pakistan.


----------



## Deino

*Guys ... Is it really necesary to start a new thread for each and every post?

We already have a dedicated submarine topic.*

Deino

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

Just image we have 12 pops of Type 096.


----------



## yusheng



Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Bussard Ramjet

Narendra Trump said:


> any chances of giving these babies to Pakistan??



No.



wanglaokan said:


> Just image we have 12 pops of Type 096.



According to all analysis of nuclear submarines I have found, it has been consistently said that China's ability to handle the key tasks of Nuclear Submarines: a small, powerful, quite nuclear reactor; good, quiet propulsion; Sensors; and others, are extremely compromised. 

I simply can't see China matching up to any nuclear US sub in operation. 

Let's look at nuclear reactor: 

In civilian field, China still relies on considerable foreign input to design its own nuclear power plant. A lot of core components in those power plants, come from foreign countries. 

In military field, we know it for a fact that China doesn't have a military nuclear reactor for an aircraft carrier. In fact a nuclear reactor for aircraft carrier is much easier to build compared to a submarine one, because you have more space, and less need for stealth and silence. 

Propulsion is again a weakness of China, demonstrated by its absence in all civilian sectors. Even for the engines that you have, they are often larger, loud, and give less power. You can see that in the speed difference. A US AC is capable of speeds up to 40 knots, while Chinese carriers are capable of much less.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Bussard Ramjet said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> According to all analysis of nuclear submarines I have found, it has been consistently said that China's ability to handle the key tasks of Nuclear Submarines: a small, powerful, quite nuclear reactor; good, quiet propulsion; Sensors; and others, are extremely compromised.
> 
> I simply can't see China matching up to any nuclear US sub in operation.
> 
> Let's look at nuclear reactor:
> 
> In civilian field, China still relies on considerable foreign input to design its own nuclear power plant. A lot of core components in those power plants, come from foreign countries.
> 
> In military field, we know it for a fact that China doesn't have a military nuclear reactor for an aircraft carrier. In fact a nuclear reactor for aircraft carrier is much easier to build compared to a submarine one, because you have more space, and less need for stealth and silence.
> 
> Propulsion is again a weakness of China, demonstrated by its absence in all civilian sectors. Even for the engines that you have, they are often larger, loud, and give less power. You can see that in the speed difference. A US AC is capable of speeds up to 40 knots, while Chinese carriers are capable of much less.


It takes time to catch up USA, but still way beyond India.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bussard Ramjet

wanglaokan said:


> It takes time to catch up USA, but still way beyond India.



I never talk about india. 

However you are taking too long. 

The fault lies in the structure of your military industrial complex. 

Do you want me to tell you some faults which if you fix will help you substantially in closing the gap?


----------



## 帅的一匹

Bussard Ramjet said:


> I never talk about india.
> 
> However you are taking too long.
> 
> The fault lies in the structure of your military industrial complex.
> 
> Do you want me to tell you some faults which if you fix will help you substantially in closing the gap?


Please enlighten me


----------



## yantong1980

Bussard Ramjet said:


> I never talk about india.
> 
> However you are taking too long.
> 
> The fault lies in the structure of your military industrial complex.
> 
> Do you want me to tell you some faults which if you fix will help you substantially in closing the gap?



Lol, thank you for such concern Bussard, more appreciated if Mr.Bussard if all your info source not Western media propaganda that no any connection to Chinese military industrial complex. May I know why you always compare your USA stuff with Chinese one? I ask you what is American need? What Chinese need? What about each of their military doctrine and posture? That's not fault in military complex, there's a time for something, when China was there, they will there! Walk and learn! Meanwhile America still super-duper now, are you happy?

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## sinait

Bussard Ramjet said:


> I never talk about india.
> 
> However you are taking too long.
> 
> The fault lies in the structure of your military industrial complex.
> 
> Do you want me to tell you some faults which if you fix will help you substantially in closing the gap?



You are so funny Mr self appointed USA spokesman. I don't think there is anybody here got authority or knowledge to teach any country how to fix their military industrial complex. If you indeed have such capability, I think you should direct your efforts and talent towards your home country or else you could be jailed for treason. In such a scenario you will be missed here. Too much teaching and fault finding by self appointed military experts can make the discussion boring. If you insist, you should offer your services to the PLAN. I read somewhere China is looking to get some Indian talents. I think nobody here will be able to evaluate and apply those fixes that you will be recommending to close any perceived gap. Maybe you could consider advising the USA on how to beat China's supercomputer, HS train, quantum satellite, 5G telecommunications, pebble bed reactor, island building, and etc.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

One more picture of this new "Submarine Factory" 近日中国渤船某新建核潜艇总装车间内部照再次曝光，这个车间的大小在世界上都是少有的，据推测可同时进行两艘核潜艇的总装作业。根据媒体的报道称，这个厂房仅仅用了1年不到的时间就完成建造，这个建造速度足以笑傲全球。（来源：中船重工）

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## sinait

grey boy 2 said:


> 这个建造速度足以笑傲全球。（来源：中船重工）


Wondering if it should be " China is proud(笑傲) of its construction speed " instead of this from Google " the construction speed enough to laugh the world ". Why they add that laugh character to the proud character. Do you know any better way to do translation because cannot expect Chinese members to always do this time consuming translation.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jkroo

sinait said:


> Wondering if it should be " China is proud(笑傲) of its construction speed " instead of this from Google " the construction speed enough to laugh the world ". Why they add that laugh character to the proud character. Do you know any better way to do translation because cannot expect Chinese members to always do this time consuming translation.



We can mock any online translators any time with high context sentences. lol

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## sinait

jkroo said:


> We can mock any online translators any time with high context sentences. lol



Yah, those Translators sucks. I want to know because there is a movie with this title 笑傲江湖. I was wondering the meaning of 笑傲. individually if is "laugh" and "proud". Together it is like "Smiling Proud" which don't make much sense. Is there another meaning? I tried searching on Google and it came up with more Chinese which I regrettably am not able to read.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## terranMarine

sinait said:


> Yah, those Translators sucks. I want to know because there is a movie with this title 笑傲江湖. I was wondering the meaning of 笑傲. individually if is "laugh" and "proud". Together it is like "Smiling Proud" which don't make much sense. Is there another meaning? I tried searching on Google and it came up with more Chinese which I regrettably am not able to read.


If you are Chinese watch the soapies to find out the meaning of the title. If you are not, most probably you won't get the meaning that's why the English translation is weird.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jkroo

sinait said:


> Yah, those Translators sucks. I want to know because there is a movie with this title 笑傲江湖. I was wondering the meaning of 笑傲. individually if is "laugh" and "proud". Together it is like "Smiling Proud" which don't make much sense. Is there another meaning? I tried searching on Google and it came up with more Chinese which I regrettably am not able to read.


It's pretty easy. If you know 笑傲江湖 then you know 笑傲全球. 笑傲 can be treated as a verb you can add a adv 于 means smile and feel proud in the world that means fastest construction speed.

It's just a somewhat simplified expression phrase and easy to comprehend but exactly express meanings in short.

BTW you need to learn more about the language.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Brainsucker

Bussard Ramjet said:


> I never talk about india.
> 
> However you are taking too long.
> 
> The fault lies in the structure of your military industrial complex.
> 
> Do you want me to tell you some faults which if you fix will help you substantially in closing the gap?



Oh my God, a military genius has been born in India. He understands the fault of Chinese Military industrial complex, even without reading any concrete / actual data from the companies themselves.What did he use to gather those informations? Daydreaming or... Ah, I can't imagine it. I'm sure that it's flashy and spectacular.

This is a bad news for China. With his help, I'm sure India can beat even the American Industrial capability and become the most powerful superpower in the world. Indian Nuclear Submarine way too advanced if compared to China's 096 and American's Ohio.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## 帅的一匹

Brainsucker said:


> Oh my God, a military genius has been born in India. He understands the fault of Chinese Military industrial complex, even without reading any concrete / actual data from the companies themselves.What did he use to gather those informations? Daydreaming or... Ah, I can't imagine it. I'm sure that it's flashy and spectacular.
> 
> This is a bad news for China. With his help, I'm sure India can beat even the American Industrial capability and become the most powerful superpower in the world. Indian Nuclear Submarine way too advanced if compared to China's 096 and American's Ohio.


You make my day!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## beijingwalker

*China is building a giant nuclear submarine facility*

*It can build four subs at a time.

*
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Yesterday at 11:15pm




Giant Factory

When this enclosed submarine factory begins operation later this year, the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. (BSHIC) will be able to quickly build nuclear submarines. Assembling SSNs in a building also provides the advantage of sheltering against the weather, not to mention nosy spy satellites.


Starting later this year, China's new submarine factory on the Yellow Sea will churn out nuclear-powered attack submarines—also known as SSNs—all but ensuring that the sub program of the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) will be a deadly global force.

Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation is putting the finishing touches on its new facility, which will start production this year. BSHIC, based in Huludao, Liaoning Province, is China's only builder of nuclear submarines. It previously built the Type 091, 093 nuclear attack submarines (SSN) and Type 092 and 094 nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). Why is this building such a big deal? Simple, really: inside a superstructure, submarines are hidden from snoops, spies, and satellites. It also provides a controlled environment for development and construction.





In Parallel

The module assembly hall is well equipped, with gantry cranes for lifting SSN modules in position and parallel rails for moving completed hull sections further down the assembly line. Once fully operational, the assembly line could enable China to at least match USN SSN production.

The massive new assembly hall, which measures more than 430,000 square feet, has enough room for two parallel production lines; each production line has one half dedicated to assembling and attaching together submarine modules, and the other half dedicated to finishing the hull with quieting measures like anechoic tiles. That's enough space for four SSN's to be built simultaneously (two sets of modules being assembled at one end, and another pair of assembled hulls being fitted out before launch). Once completed, the SSN is rolled off the line and into the ocean. The assembly hall can also handle construction of the next generation SSBN, the Type 096




Type 095 SSN

The Type 095 SSN, seen in this speculative fanmade rendering, will likely have VLS cells for launching a wide range of cruise missiles, plus pumpjet propulsion and improved quieting technology. The first Type 095 will likely begin production in late 2017 at the new BSHIC factory, with many more to follow in the 2020s.

The facility is reported to begin construction on the first Type 095 SSN later this year. The Type 095 is expected to have a single/hybrid pressure hull, pumpjet propulsion and vertical launch system cells, making it (at least) superior to older SSNs like the U.S.'s Los Angeles III and Russia's Akula II.
http://www.popsci.com/china-nuclear-submarine-facility#page-2

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This can build the Millennium Falcon Falcon if it wanted to

Amazing facility 

I keep preaching the same to Pakistan Navy make yard that can have BIG goals none of this 1 tiny boat manufactured per year


----------



## UKBengali

SinoSoldier said:


> If hostilities ever break out between the Chinese and the US, this would be a very high-value target for MOABs.



They can only be launched by C-130s lol.


----------



## YeBeWarned

@HRK our Future Ballistic Missile Submarine carrier will be built here 

On Topic, that is one Huge facility


----------



## beijingwalker

SinoSoldier said:


> If hostilities ever break out between the Chinese and the US, this would be a very high-value target for MOABs.


We dare them to come

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## I S I

So Pakistan's first SSN will come from here.


----------



## Deino

I S I said:


> So Pakistan's first SSN will come from here.




Surely not ! I don't think that China will sell SSNs !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mangus Ortus Novem

Deino said:


> Surely not ! I don't think that China will sell SSNs !




Teacherman,

Of course, China won't be selling any SSNs... however, if Pak builds a SSN in a decade or so many things come Pak's way, many roads, many lanes... 

It is rather subtle and refined form of manufacturing. 

China wants to have stability around its periphery... balance of power in South Asia is already disturbed.... have you followed what is going on with Dalai and South Tibet and not to forget CPEC. 

Everything is interconnected. It always is.....

So, of course, China will NEVER sell any of such tech to anyone.

Yet Pak will have a SSN or two down the road. 

_Subtle, sublte, they become soundless,
Mysterious, mysterious, they become formless_


The facility in question is primarily geared towards acceleration in shrinking capability gaps. Let us not be surprised to see China churning out SSNs from it just like their shipbuilding spree. 

Hope you had great Easter.

Regards,

SPF

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## I S I

Deino said:


> Surely not ! I don't think that China will sell SSNs !


Why not? SSBN may be hard to get but why SSN?


----------



## beijingwalker

*China is building a giant nuclear submarine facility*

*It can build four subs at a time.
*

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Yesterday at 11:15pm







Giant Factory

When this enclosed submarine factory begins operation later this year, the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. (BSHIC) will be able to quickly build nuclear submarines. Assembling SSNs in a building also provides the advantage of sheltering against the weather, not to mention nosy spy satellites.


Starting later this year, China's new submarine factory on the Yellow Sea will churn out nuclear-powered attack submarines—also known as SSNs—all but ensuring that the sub program of the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) will be a deadly global force.

Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation is putting the finishing touches on its new facility, which will start production this year. BSHIC, based in Huludao, Liaoning Province, is China's only builder of nuclear submarines. It previously built the Type 091, 093 nuclear attack submarines (SSN) and Type 092 and 094 nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). Why is this building such a big deal? Simple, really: inside a superstructure, submarines are hidden from snoops, spies, and satellites. It also provides a controlled environment for development and construction.






In Parallel

The module assembly hall is well equipped, with gantry cranes for lifting SSN modules in position and parallel rails for moving completed hull sections further down the assembly line. Once fully operational, the assembly line could enable China to at least match USN SSN production.

The massive new assembly hall, which measures more than 430,000 square feet, has enough room for two parallel production lines; each production line has one half dedicated to assembling and attaching together submarine modules, and the other half dedicated to finishing the hull with quieting measures like anechoic tiles. That's enough space for four SSN's to be built simultaneously (two sets of modules being assembled at one end, and another pair of assembled hulls being fitted out before launch). Once completed, the SSN is rolled off the line and into the ocean. The assembly hall can also handle construction of the next generation SSBN, the Type 096





Type 095 SSN

The Type 095 SSN, seen in this speculative fanmade rendering, will likely have VLS cells for launching a wide range of cruise missiles, plus pumpjet propulsion and improved quieting technology. The first Type 095 will likely begin production in late 2017 at the new BSHIC factory, with many more to follow in the 2020s.

The facility is reported to begin construction on the first Type 095 SSN later this year. The Type 095 is expected to have a single/hybrid pressure hull, pumpjet propulsion and vertical launch system cells, making it (at least) superior to older SSNs like the U.S.'s Los Angeles III and Russia's Akula II.
http://www.popsci.com/china-nuclear-submarine-facility#page-2

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## cirr

*China is building the world's largest nuclear submarine facility*

*It can build four subs at a time.*

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Yesterday at 11:15pm




BSHIC

*Giant Factory*

When this enclosed submarine factory begins operation later this year, the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. (BSHIC) will be able to quickly build nuclear submarines. Assembling SSNs in a building also provides the advantage of sheltering against the weather, not to mention nosy spy satellites.

Starting later this year, China's new submarine factory on the Yellow Sea will churn out nuclear-powered attack submarines—also known as SSNs—all but ensuring that the sub program of the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) will be a deadly global force.

Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation is putting the finishing touches on its new facility, which will start production this year. BSHIC, based in Huludao, Liaoning Province, is China's only builder of nuclear submarines. It previously built the Type 091, 093 nuclear attack submarines (SSN) and Type 092 and 094 nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). Why is this building such a big deal? Simple, really: inside a superstructure, submarines are hidden from snoops, spies, and satellites. It also provides a controlled environment for development and construction.





BSHIC

*In Parallel*

The module assembly hall is well equipped, with gantry cranes for lifting SSN modules in position and parallel rails for moving completed hull sections further down the assembly line. Once fully operational, the assembly line could enable China to at least match USN SSN production.

The massive new assembly hall, which measures more than 430,000 square feet, has enough room for two parallel production lines; each production line has one half dedicated to assembling and attaching together submarine modules, and the other half dedicated to finishing the hull with quieting measures like anechoic tiles. That's enough space for four SSN's to be built simultaneously (two sets of modules being assembled at one end, and another pair of assembled hulls being fitted out before launch). Once completed, the SSN is rolled off the line and into the ocean. The assembly hall can also handle construction of the next generation SSBN, the Type 096





Medico-MAX

*Type 095 SSN*

The Type 095 SSN, seen in this speculative fanmade rendering, will likely have VLS cells for launching a wide range of cruise missiles, plus pumpjet propulsion and improved quieting technology. The first Type 095 will likely begin production in late 2017 at the new BSHIC factory, with many more to follow in the 2020s.

The facility is reported to begin construction on the first Type 095 SSN later this year. The Type 095 is expected to have a single/hybrid pressure hull, pumpjet propulsion and vertical launch system cells, making it (at least) superior to older SSNs like the U.S.'s Los Angeles III and Russia's Akula II.

http://www.popsci.com/china-nuclear-submarine-facility#page-2

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## samsara

By some guesstimate, roughly how long does it take to build every FOUR SSN or SSBN simultaneously at this new Bohai plant? Every two to three years roll out new four subs???

My expectation, by every two years at most the new factory can roll out four SSN or SSBN. 


I wish China will build many more SSBN just to deter the USA's *active military doctrine* of employing the "*First Nuclear Strike*" or "*Nuclear Primacy*"... some mad men at the top of helm there are frightening the world with their faith of having the "Full Spectrum Dominance" that the USA can achieve a *WINNABLE Nuclear War*!

Installing the BMD around the world encircling both China and Russia is an obvious part of such madman military doctrine!

Look at http://www.globalresearch.ca/ for the related references.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 帅的一匹

Sinopakfriend said:


> Teacherman,
> 
> Of course, China won't be selling any SSNs... however, if Pak builds a SSN in a decade or so many things come Pak's way, many roads, many lanes...
> 
> It is rather subtle and refined form of manufacturing.
> 
> China wants to have stability around its periphery... balance of power in South Asia is already disturbed.... have you followed what is going on with Dalai and South Tibet and not to forget CPEC.
> 
> Everything is interconnected. It always is.....
> 
> So, of course, China will NEVER sell any of such tech to anyone.
> 
> Yet Pak will have a SSN or two down the road.
> 
> _Subtle, sublte, they become soundless,
> Mysterious, mysterious, they become formless_
> 
> 
> The facility in question is primarily geared towards acceleration in shrinking capability gaps. Let us not be surprised to see China churning out SSNs from it just like their shipbuilding spree.
> 
> Hope you had great Easter.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> SPF


We won't sell SSN to Pakistan, we will help them build their own.

Pakistan shall at least have 4 SSN.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Mangus Ortus Novem

wanglaokan said:


> We won't sell SSN to Pakistan, we will help them build their own.




As I said, China will NEVER sell SSN to anyone.

Iron Brothers! 

Rest is just....well rest. 

The balance of power in south asia needs to be restored. The current state of affairs affects Iron Brohters negatively.

We must all excercise patience.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Sinopakfriend said:


> As I said, China will NEVER sell SSN to anyone.
> 
> Iron Brothers!
> 
> Rest is just....well rest.
> 
> The balance of power in south asia needs to be restored. The current state of affairs affects Iron Brohters negatively.
> 
> We must all excercise patience.


The only brother of China is Pakistan, only. Who else can we trust except Pakistan? No one.

I think now is the right time for PN to launch its SSN project with China support.

Balance of power need to be addressed.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Deino

*Guys ... calm down and please no more Derailing/Flame-Baiting/Off-topic Discussion/Provoking/Trolling !*


----------



## grey boy 2

Rumors that 095 has begun, to be deliver to PLAN in 2020 
095隋巡航导弹核潜艇开工建造 2020年交付海军 




http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1864565-1-1.html

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Makarena

Pakistan should aim for more reasonable goal, like full ToT on Yuan class submarine. I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem for China. For SSN, China will not be able to sell it easily, there is international concern that need to be addressed. It is nuclear powered after all. Though if Pakistan is willing to embark on building on its own, then certainly China can give an "advice" or two. But it will be costly for Pakistan to develop SSN on its own.


----------



## onebyone

*The 430,000-square-foot plant will guard subs from prying eyes.*







China is building a factory so big that when it's done, it will be able to accommodate the construction of four submarines at once—out of sight from military enthusiasts and spy satellites alike.

According to _Popular Science_, Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation is building the plant in Huludao, Liaoning Province. The place will have two parallel assembly lines. The gigantic hall reportedly is where China will begin construction on is latest attack submarine, the Type 095.





Artist's conception of Type 095 submarine.
Via Chinese Internet.

Despite having control over its Internet and press, the Chinese government has had enduring problems with military enthusiasts sneaking pictures of new ships and aircraft under development or construction. While some of this is useful to telegraph China's broader intentions and give a hint of its capabilities, the rest of it is considered a nuisance. Building an indoor submarine factory keeps sensitive subjects such as the hull shape of a submarine or even the propeller design a secret.

This does not necessarily mean China now has a submarine-building edge over the U.S. The U.S. Navy commissions about two submarines a year, each of which takes about three years to build. That puts U.S. submarine construction at about six at a time, ahead of this factory's four. Of course, China builds submarines at other locations too, and may even build them a little faster.





U.S. submarines are also built indoors. Here's a Virginia-class submarine with its pumpjet propulsion system under wraps.
Via Newport News shipyard.
Speed isn't everything. Even if China ends up capable of building more submarines per year than the United States can, there's the question of quality. The Type 095 is expected to be quieter that the second tranche of _Los Angeles_-class attack submarines that were built in the late 1980s, and Russian Victor III or Akula-class submarines built in the early 1980s.

In other words, China is approximately 30 years behind the United States in submarine quieting technology. Chinese submarines in the 1980s were about as quiet as American submarines from the 1950s, while modern American submarines such as the _Seawolf_ or _Virginia-_class boats are so quiet they're described as "quieter at 25 knots than the _Los Angeles_ class at pierside." This is not a field where China has been able to close the gap.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...uilding-the-worlds-largest-submarine-factory/

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Deino

*Guys ... I really don't get it 

Is it so much difficult to take a look in advance before You start a new thread in a topic that clearly already exists and even more for a report that was already more than twice posted during the last few day !!!!???* 

Deino

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## samsara

onebyone said:


> *The 430,000-square-foot plant will guard subs from prying eyes.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China is building a factory so big that when it's done, it will be able to accommodate the construction of four submarines at once—out of sight from military enthusiasts and spy satellites alike.
> 
> According to _Popular Science_, Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation is building the plant in Huludao, Liaoning Province. The place will have two parallel assembly lines. The gigantic hall reportedly is where China will begin construction on is latest attack submarine, the Type 095.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artist's conception of Type 095 submarine.
> Via Chinese Internet.
> 
> Despite having control over its Internet and press, the Chinese government has had enduring problems with military enthusiasts sneaking pictures of new ships and aircraft under development or construction. While some of this is useful to telegraph China's broader intentions and give a hint of its capabilities, the rest of it is considered a nuisance. Building an indoor submarine factory keeps sensitive subjects such as the hull shape of a submarine or even the propeller design a secret.
> 
> This does not necessarily mean China now has a submarine-building edge over the U.S. The U.S. Navy commissions about two submarines a year, each of which takes about three years to build. That puts U.S. submarine construction at about six at a time, ahead of this factory's four. Of course, China builds submarines at other locations too, and may even build them a little faster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. submarines are also built indoors. Here's a Virginia-class submarine with its pumpjet propulsion system under wraps.
> Via Newport News shipyard.
> Speed isn't everything. Even if China ends up capable of building more submarines per year than the United States can, there's the question of quality. The Type 095 is expected to be quieter that the second tranche of _Los Angeles_-class attack submarines that were built in the late 1980s, and Russian Victor III or Akula-class submarines built in the early 1980s.
> 
> In other words, China is approximately 30 years behind the United States in submarine quieting technology. Chinese submarines in the 1980s were about as quiet as American submarines from the 1950s, while modern American submarines such as the _Seawolf_ or _Virginia-_class boats are so quiet they're described as "quieter at 25 knots than the _Los Angeles_ class at pierside." This is not a field where China has been able to close the gap.
> 
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...uilding-the-worlds-largest-submarine-factory/



_"In other words, China is approximately 30 years behind the United States in submarine quieting technology. Chinese submarines in the 1980s were about as quiet as American submarines from the 1950s, while modern American submarines such as the Seawolf or Virginia-class boats are so quiet they're described as "quieter at 25 knots than the Los Angeles class at pierside." This is not a field where China has been able to close the gap."_​
A nice self-tranquilizing exposition. Good to know that China is just trailing approximately 30 years behind the United States in submarine quieting technology.... not over 50 years or even a century away  Have no worry D.C., China is just making up its quantity deficiency... nothing come close to your mighty fighting muscles  USA! USA! USA! 3X

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

Satellites image of the "Giant Submarine Factory"
When this enclosed submarine factory begins operation later this year, the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. (BSHIC) will be able to quickly build nuclear submarines. Assembling SSNs in a building also provides the advantage of sheltering against the weather, not to mention nosy spy satellites.

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## samsara

grey boy 2 said:


> Satellites image of the "Giant Submarine Factory"
> When this enclosed submarine factory begins operation later this year, the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. (BSHIC) will be able to quickly build nuclear submarines. Assembling SSNs in a building also provides the advantage of sheltering against the weather, not to mention nosy spy satellites.


Now the prying eyes of sky are blinded, they will have to resort back to the old, traditional methods of intelligence gathering... human spying! Scouring over all the blogs with military interests for any leakage will be part of the attempts in addition to all kinds of tapping by those alphabet agencies

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## terranMarine

US spy satellites have been blind folded, brilliant

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

I'm wondering If China is capable of making Seawolf class sub?


----------



## S10

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I'm wondering If China is capable of making Seawolf class sub?


093A is roughly equivalent to improved Los Angeles (more advanced sensors, roughly same acoustic level but inferior speed), so I don't see why 095 can't be in Seawolf's ballpark.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

S10 said:


> 093A is roughly equivalent to improved Los Angeles (more advanced sensors, roughly same acoustic level but inferior speed), so I don't see why 095 can't be in Seawolf's ballpark.



The Type 093/094 already got the reactor with the capability of the natural circulation, which means it can sail silently at 20 knots.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## samsara

_Many tightly-held beliefs are just the groundless bigotry, often sound more like a dogma, or a fairytale..._

_Here's a well-known piece of story from nearly a decade ago, merely as an illustration as well as a reminder._

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced*

By Matthew Hickley - Daily Mail Online - Last updated at 00:13 *10 November 2007*

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.




American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.




The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.

Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.

-------------------

And more recent stories of a Chinese sub stalked USS Reagan (2015), can be read here at PDF... at the end what truly matters is _to learn from the many conflicting views_ (mind you, they came from the "established sources" only) that *eventually it's just a matter of FAITH on what to believe or not to believe...* all the involved hands have _some selective things to show_ while at the same time also have _some selective thing to hide_ in this very highly secretive affair by nature!

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## S10

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 093/094 already got the reactor with the capability of the natural circulation, which means it can sail silently at 20 knots.


Maximum output is still a bit inferior to 688i.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

S10 said:


> Maximum output is still a bit inferior to 688i.



While the sensors and electronics are more advanced than those of the 688i.


----------



## S10

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> While the sensors and electronics are more advanced than those of the 688i.


Speed is the greatest weapon for SSN. If you can hit 35 knots, you're essentially immune to torpedoes. That's why even the oldest SSN will likely dance circles around the latest SSK.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

S10 said:


> Speed is the greatest weapon for SSN. If you can hit 35 knots, you're essentially immune to torpedoes. That's why even the oldest SSN will likely dance circles around the latest SSK.



China's SSN was always known having great speed.

Even the Type 091 once managed to sail above 40 knots, just having greater noise. The second generation can silently sail at 20 knots, which is a good thing. They finally managed to reduce the noise at the cruising speed.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 帅的一匹

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China's SSN was always known having great speed.
> 
> Even the Type 091 once managed to sail above 40 knots, just having greater noise. The second generation can silently sail at 20 knots, which is a good thing. They finally managed to reduce the noise at the cruising speed.


Japanese Aryu class is just sitting ducks

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## gambit

S10 said:


> Speed is the greatest weapon for SSN. If you can hit 35 knots, you're essentially immune to torpedoes.


If you are talking about WW II era, maybe. And even some of them can exceed 40 kn. The American Mk48 estimated speed is 55 kn, but we can be assured that it is higher.

For any submarine, its greatest strength is stealth, depth is secondary.


----------



## samsara

I just wonder how any one can be sure about any figures said to be attached to any particular class of sub, this xx knots, this stealthy etc since unlike aircraft there is no way at all for public for any visualization check deep undersea... all sub info is a controlled release, at the end it's more likely a FAITH to swallow or not the presented data.

Please tell me the smart ways to learn the contemporary sub issues  please enlighten

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Oldman1

samsara said:


> Now the prying eyes of sky are blinded, they will have to resort back to the old, traditional methods of intelligence gathering... human spying! Scouring over all the blogs with military interests for any leakage will be part of the attempts in addition to all kinds of tapping by those alphabet agencies



You talk like this is something new. The spy satellites are focused on locating them. Not knowing what they are capable of. Unless spy satellites these day can measure its speed, how much power it has, weapons load out, etc.

















S10 said:


> Speed is the greatest weapon for SSN. If you can hit 35 knots, you're essentially immune to torpedoes. That's why even the oldest SSN will likely dance circles around the latest SSK.



Stealth is. Not speed. Nuclear power was intentionally designed to make sure the submarine stay submerged for a very long time without refueling.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## grey boy 2

The early version of 039 (初版039)

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## grey boy 2

Some more pictures of the early version 039 (credits to hc_andy)

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## samsara

*Type 039 SSK loading torpedo*





Via *@xinfengcao* 2017-05-09

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

Chinese conventional submarines has been equip with new generation* “双速制反舰导弹” [dual speed control ASCM] with a range of at 290 nautical miles* – more than double that of its likely progenitor, the Russian SS-N-27 _Klub_ ASCM (export version) 4 years ago
*中国海军常规潜艇4年前已开始换装鹰击18导弹*
http://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404105951107007167
It is projected that YJ-18 would have an initial subsonic phase estimated at .8 Mach similar to the Klub of about 180km, but 20km from the target would unleash the supersonic sprint vehicle at speed of Mach 2.5 to 3. The “dual speed” function allows the system to realize certain advantages of subsonic cruise missiles, such as their “relatively long range, light weight and universality …” but also takes the chief advantage of supersonic ASCMs as well, namely the ability to “大幅压缩敌方的反应时间” [radically compress the enemy’s reaction time].
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/chinas-yj-18-supersonic-anti-ship-cruise-missile-americas-13010

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## samsara

grey boy 2 said:


> Chinese conventional submarines has been equip with new generation* “双速制反舰导弹” [dual speed control ASCM] with a range of at 290 nautical miles* – more than double that of its likely progenitor, the Russian SS-N-27 _Klub_ ASCM (export version) 4 years ago
> *中国海军常规潜艇4年前已开始换装鹰击18导弹*
> http://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404105951107007167
> It is projected that YJ-18 would have an initial subsonic phase estimated at .8 Mach similar to the Klub of about 180km, but 20km from the target would unleash the supersonic sprint vehicle at speed of Mach 2.5 to 3. The “dual speed” function allows the system to realize certain advantages of subsonic cruise missiles, such as their “relatively long range, light weight and universality …” but also takes the chief advantage of supersonic ASCMs as well, namely the ability to “大幅压缩敌方的反应时间” [radically compress the enemy’s reaction time].
> http://nationalinterest.org/feature/chinas-yj-18-supersonic-anti-ship-cruise-missile-americas-13010


http://nationalinterest.org/feature...-ship-cruise-missile-americas-13010?page=show
. . .
The article interestingly discusses recent Russian placement of additional _Kilo_-class submarines equipped with the _Klub_-missile systems into the Black Sea. These new submarines “based on the Crimean Peninsula, operating in harmony with air and land-based missile forces [can] … limit the deployment of NATO fleets into the Black Sea …” I have noted before in this column the seductive possibilities of the “Russian model” for Chinese strategists. This Chinese author concludes the piece, explaining that, “_The YJ-18 will gradually replace the YJ-82 across the PLA Navy submarine fleet. That development combined with surface ship and air-launched missiles will create a comprehensive attack system of even greater combat power._” The implication seems to be that for China, in its various maritime disputes, the YJ-18 can play a role similar to the one that nearly identical Russian weapons have played in creating decisive local military superiority in the Black Sea area.

On the other hand, Beijing has been making noteworthy strides in military transparency of late, for example with the most recent white paper or the somewhat unusual discussion of the new Type 093G nuclear attack submarine in China Daily. Nevertheless, the gap in transparency continues to be quite wide when it comes to *some of the most lethal weapons in China’s arsenal*, *such as the new YJ-18*. Allowing the rumor mill to churn, spreading anxieties regarding Chinese capabilities hither and thither is really not in China’s interest and greater transparency, of course, is necessary.   _[Should ask the the author what he wanna know indeed? Doesn't he know the secrecy nature of any military import???]_

*For Washington, some additional attention seems warranted in future intelligence community studies with respect to Chinese ASCM (anti-ship cruise missile) development.* The 2015 ONI study gave some attention to YJ-18, but omitted discussion of the supersonic YJ-12, the long-range subsonic YJ-100 or the CX-1 supersonic ASCM that are apparently now in development, according to Chinese sources. Renewed attention will help muster the necessary focus for the U.S. going forward to prepare its forces adequately. For all the ink spilled and Washington seminars convened to discuss China’s expanding coast guard fleet, *it is obviously the ever-growing sophistication of the Chinese ASCM arsenal that poses the “clear and present danger” to American sailors.*

Lyle J. Goldstein_ is Associate Professor in the _China Maritime Studies Institute_ (CMSI) at the _U.S. Naval War College_ in Newport, RI.

--------------------

“clear and present danger” ==> ONLY for interventionist, trouble seeker!! _

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## grey boy 2

039 AIP conventional submarine from the South sea fleet 




Inside the submarine simulation training center

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## grey boy 2



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

This might as well be the last of such photo for our old warrior (SSBN 092) 406 before its retirement 





Another one new "039C AIP conventional submarine" #浩汉快讯# 据武船内部人士@花鸟山 披露039C型常规潜艇持续量产！又完工一条！

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

4 094, 094A SSBN spotted (4艘094系列战略核潜艇首次集体亮相)

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Deino

Via the SDF (Hendrik_2000):



> Must be something big going on Navy Chief visited the nuclear sub reactor test facility
> 
> The Commander-in-Chief of the Chinese Navy and the CEO of the CSIC Group visit a test site for the new nuclear submarine reactor.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## grey boy 2

093 nuclear attack submarine along side with 054A FFG in gulf of Aden 在亚丁湾执行护航任务的中国海军09Ⅲ型核动力潜艇与054A型导弹护卫舰。

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## lcloo

PLA Navy Kilo class SSK loading heavy torpedo.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Beast

lcloo said:


> PLA Navy Kilo class SSK loading heavy torpedo.
> 
> View attachment 398717
> View attachment 398718


I believe Kilo sub in PLAN will retired in a few years time.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## grey boy 2

096 SSBN CG 









096 SSBN CG comparing with 094 SSBN

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> 096 SSBN CG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 096 SSBN CG comparing with 094 SSBN



Fan art or something with a bit more substance? Who made this CG?


----------



## cirr

Looks like work on new generation nuclear subs has run into technical issues.

But rest assured, they can and will be solved one way or another.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## lcloo

Admiral /Professor Ma Wei Ming disclosed on a TV interview a new propulsion system (bearingless pump drive) for next generation submarine has been developed. He said this new techomology is now being applied (on certain ship), and China is leading US on this perspect.

近日，央视采访中国工程院院士、海军工程大学电力电子研究所所长马伟明院士时，首次曝光了我国下一代潜艇使用的无轴泵推技术。这些技术比美国相关技术还要先进，并且已经在实际应用中。此外，马伟明院士在电力推进方面也有很大的成果。

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## Han Patriot

Link to the interview. It's actually a program telling the achievement of the various award winners for Chinese Key Innovators Award. It details military to civillian technology including Chinese research on 4G technology. That's the reason Huawei and ZTE sprinted ahead, we had 4G technology.

I think this propulsion is electric propulsion, they are leading the world by at least 10 years, as claimed by this award winner. I don't think he is bragging. It's saying its an integrated electric propulsion system which supplies power to high energy weapons, I guess it's lasers?

He also said the propulsion system already used for next generation nuclear submarine. Damn, this means the next gen submarine is already completed. This guy shouldn't reveal so much.






Guys this Ma WeiMing is also responsible for EMALS. His expertise is integrated electric propulsion systems for navy. There is a picture of Navy Admiral holding an umbrella for him while he was testing something through the walkie talkie. This guy says he dare claim Chinese electric propulsion and EMALS is more advanced than US.

Reactions: Like Like:
14


----------



## Deino

lcloo said:


> Admiral /Professor Ma Wei Ming disclosed on a TV interview a new propulsion system (bearingless pump drive) for next generation submarine has been developed. He said this new techomology is now being applied (on certain ship), and China is leading US on this perspect.
> 
> 近日，央视采访中国工程院院士、海军工程大学电力电子研究所所长马伟明院士时，首次曝光了我国下一代潜艇使用的无轴泵推技术。这些技术比美国相关技术还要先进，并且已经在实际应用中。此外，马伟明院士在电力推进方面也有很大的成果。



So some sort of "Hunt for Red October" as described in the novel from Tom Clancy?


----------



## yusheng

Han Patriot said:


> Link to the interview. It's actually a program telling the achievement 、、、

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Han Patriot

US submarines are still not equipped with shaftless propulsion, as per the interview, Mr. Ma claimed it was already installed on Chinese nuclear submarines.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Deino

Something like that ??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 星海军事

lcloo said:


> Admiral /Professor Ma Wei Ming disclosed on a TV interview a new propulsion system (bearingless pump drive) for next generation submarine has been developed. He said this new techomology is now being applied (on certain ship), and China is leading US on this perspect.
> 
> 近日，央视采访中国工程院院士、海军工程大学电力电子研究所所长马伟明院士时，首次曝光了我国下一代潜艇使用的无轴泵推技术。这些技术比美国相关技术还要先进，并且已经在实际应用中。此外，马伟明院士在电力推进方面也有很大的成果。
> View attachment 400224
> View attachment 400225
> View attachment 400226



What Ma meant is that China is ahead of the US in terms of the development of 3 MW High Speed Induction Generator (the one on his left) and the HSIG is going to be installed on the next generation nuclear submarine.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## bobsm

Deino said:


> Something like that ??
> 
> View attachment 400341



That photo is a future US planned shaftless propulsion system, probably for the columbia class subs, to begin construction in 2021.
美国海军未来规划的无轴泵喷推进系统 

The Chinese system, already being used("现在已经在应用了"according to Ma WeiMing) may look different.

Taken from:
http://www.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2017_05_31_410940.shtml

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## yusheng

Integrated Power System，简称IPS
this system , china is one generation ahead of usa,

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## 帅的一匹

Ma Wei Ming shall have 5 kids, he is too clever.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Ma Wei Ming shall have 5 kids, he is too clever.


Maybe it will diluted the IQ reserve for the kid

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 帅的一匹

People shall get used to China leading the technology edge of the world in the future. We have every potential to be a black horse.



Beast said:


> Maybe it will diluted the IQ reserve for the kid


Better 10 kids

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Han Patriot

星海军事 said:


> What Ma meant is that China is ahead of the US in terms of the development of 3 MW High Speed Induction Motor (the one on his left) and the HSIM is going to be installed on the next generation nuclear submarine.


I think that HSIM is coupled to a shaftless propulsion system...this guy is a genius, his speciality is ship power systems. From electric propulsion to EMALS.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## 帅的一匹

马伟明这类人才是中华民族的脊梁，而不是那些急着移民的老板或是那些靠唱歌跳舞出卖色相就赚几个亿的明星。马伟明应该破例可以讨四个清华女研究生当老婆，每个给他生5个小孩。我们国家就有希望了。

所有费用国家报销

就像以前杨家将一样，搞一个马家将出来。

专门负责领导我国的电磁应用技术。

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## yusheng

wanglaokan said:


> Ma Wei Ming shall have 5 kids, he is too clever.



China has many geniuses, giving them good conditions, they will surprise you.
sooner you will see there are something called "black science" or "fringe science" that not be allowed to mention today.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 星海军事

Han Patriot said:


> I think that HSIM is coupled to a shaftless propulsion system...this guy is a genius, his speciality is ship power systems. From electric propulsion to EMALS.



It is possible, but Ma disclosed nothing about the shaftless water-jet pump.


----------



## cirr

Deino said:


> Something like that ??
> 
> View attachment 400341




This is it:

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## IblinI

cirr said:


> This is it:
> 
> View attachment 400478


This is nothing more than a model with the introducing board beside it.


----------



## yusheng

星海军事 said:


> It is possible, but Ma disclosed nothing about the shaftless water-jet pump.


shaftless pump itself is a kind of HSIM; Ma's work made possible to produce qualified shaftless pump. on the other hand, as Ma said, high energy integrated electronic system solved the issues that high energy weapon, such as EMALS, LASER(Plasma &RF), on board.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## 星海军事

yusheng said:


> shaftless pump itself is a kind of HSIM; Ma's work made possible to produce qualified shaftless pump. on the other hand, as Ma said, high energy integrated electronic system solved the issues that high energy weapon, such as EMALS, LASER(Plasma &RF), on board.
> View attachment 400483
> View attachment 400484
> View attachment 400485


My bad. I made a big translation mistake. It is a 3 MW High Speed Induction *Generator* (HSIG, rather than HSIM), so it has nothing to do with the shaftless jet pump.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Han Patriot

星海军事 said:


> My bad. I made a big translation mistake. It is a 3 MW High Speed Induction *Generator* (HSIG, rather than HSIM), so it has nothing to do with the shaftless jet pump.


https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/plan-type-093-094-095-nuclear-submarine-thread.t6883/page-115

Read Sinodefence analysis, the shaft less propulsion system was accidentally leaked there when he was talking about the HSIG.

Superdog of sinodefence explained it better:

Source: Recent interview with Prof. MA Weiming shown on CCTV's <Focus Report>.
http://tv.cctv.com/2017/05/30/VIDElSeSLderAFlcnlzhUzhn170530.shtml (starting at 8:00)

It was reported in the interview that (as claimed by Prof. MA and the narrator):

China was the first in the world to have successfully developed Medium Voltage DC Integrated Electric Systems.
Their progress in this field is 10+ years ahead of everyone else, including the US. 

They already won multiple awards with key IEP technologies (did not specify), now they're applying for another national award with the IEP project. One of MA's students is the project lead. 

The key purpose of their Naval Integrated Electric System is to allow the use of high energy weapons on ships, not just to improve noise, maneuverability, or efficiency. Those side benefits do exist, but the key purpose is to use high energy weapons on ships.
During the interview MA pointed to a device explaining that it was their first project that has been ahead of the world. He did not explain what the device is, but from the looks of it, it is fairly clear that the device is a shaftless electric pump propulsion system for submarines.
MA did not mention anything specific about the 095, he did not claim that whatever model will or will not be quieter than whatever else. What he did say was that they're ahead of the world in regards to this technology, and he did say it is something that will be used on their next generation nuclear submarine. He also said the tech is already being applied, implying that construction for said submarine has begun (if not completed).
Btw, the TV program specifically said this was the first time media was allowed entry to the navy lab. Something to ponder here? I would like to correct superdog of sinodefence, Ma did not say the machine is going to be used on next generation submarine, he said it is already used in next gen submarine, this sentence alone is very dangerous, it means the submarine is near completion or already completed.



yusheng said:


> China has many geniuses, giving them good conditions, they will surprise you.
> sooner you will see there are something called "black science" or "fringe science" that not be allowed to mention today.
> View attachment 400474
> 
> 
> View attachment 400472
> 
> View attachment 400473


What's this?



YuChen said:


> This is nothing more than a model with the introducing board beside it.


A model in a lab with a introduction board which he pointed and said won a prize. You think he would put a dummy in a lab?

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## yusheng

Han Patriot said:


> What's this?



sorry, i can not discuss that here since it is not serious discussion.
sooner or later someone else will disclose it.

i will leave PDF for several months.

i was intending to open a new talk, but now forget it.
do you know the relationship among the below three pict?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Han Patriot

yusheng said:


> sorry, i can not discuss that here since it is not serious discussion.
> sooner or later someone else will disclose it.
> 
> i will leave PDF for several months.
> 
> i was intending to open a new talk, but now forget it.
> do you know the relationship among the below three pict?
> View attachment 400771
> View attachment 400772
> View attachment 400773


Some sort of nano material for biological applications. Some papers had been published for this. Anyway your previous picture shows some sort of supercavitation technology test rig for submarine.

超空泡 = Supercavitation

http://www.popsci.com/article/technology/chinas-future-submarine-could-go-speed-sound

Btw, this is official from MOD China,

*Navy expert: China's electromagnetic launch technology no inferior to America*
*http://eng.mod.gov.cn/DefenseNews/2015-03/10/content_4574056.htm*

Ma WeiMing is a technical rear-admiral....LOL

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## 星海军事

Han Patriot said:


> China was the first in the world to have successfully developed Medium Voltage DC Integrated Electric Systems.


Correct.



Han Patriot said:


> Their progress in this field is 10+ years ahead of everyone else, including the US.


Correct.



Han Patriot said:


> They already won multiple awards with key IEP technologies (did not specify), now they're applying for another national award with the IEP project. One of MA's students is the project lead.


Correct.



Han Patriot said:


> The key purpose of their Naval Integrated Electric System is to allow the use of high energy weapons on ships, not just to improve noise, maneuverability, or efficiency. Those side benefits do exist, but the key purpose is to use high energy weapons on ships.


Correct.



Han Patriot said:


> During the interview MA pointed to a device explaining that it was their first project that has been ahead of the world. He did not explain what the device is, but from the looks of it, it is fairly clear that the device is a shaftless electric pump propulsion system for submarines.


Wrong. During the interview, Ma said,

“这两个得了一等奖了……这个也得了一个一等奖的……这个后来因为有了这两个技术（作为基础），这个就是我说的，是我们团队在世界上第一个领先项目，领先就是领先美国。”

It is clear that what Ma mentioned were all generators. This is also conformed by Ma's speech,

“3兆瓦级高速感应电机系统很快研制成功。这一创新成果先于美国研制成功，几步跨越确立了我国在该领域的国际领先地位。”




Han Patriot said:


> MA did not mention anything specific about the 095, he did not claim that whatever model will or will not be quieter than whatever else. What he did say was that they're ahead of the world in regards to this technology, and he did say it is something that will be used on their next generation nuclear submarine. He also said the tech is already being applied, implying that construction for said submarine has begun (if not completed).



What Ma meant is that the 3 MW HSIG has been applied already.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Han Patriot

星海军事 said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> Wrong. During the interview, Ma said,
> 
> “这两个得了一等奖了……这个也得了一个一等奖的……这个后来因为有了这两个技术（作为基础），这个就是我说的，是我们团队在世界上第一个领先项目，领先就是领先美国。”
> 
> It is clear that what Ma mentioned were all generators. This is also conformed by Ma's speech,
> 
> “3兆瓦级高速感应电机系统很快研制成功。这一创新成果先于美国研制成功，几步跨越确立了我国在该领域的国际领先地位。”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Ma meant is that the 3 MW HSIG has been applied already.


Agreed, but the shaftless propeller was coupled to tht generator as a system, and the board showed wht it was. I guess China would not officially acknowledge it...but you saw that board. He did point at the board and said it won a prize without elaborating further.

The sceptism here is so strong even when a rear admiral was showing it. A working prototype with a board explaining the technology is just a dummy. There was already a research paper published and yet people dont believe if. I guess let us just assume the Chinese are dumb and can never come out with something advanced.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Cybernetics

*China's new submarine engine is poised to revolutionize underwater warfare*

It looks a lot like 'Red October' in real life.

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 10 hours ago




RED OCTOBER SSBN

_The Red October_, a fictionalized version of the Akula (NATO reporting name Typhoon) submarine, has two pumpjets built into its rear for silent propulsion (though implausibly stated to use a noisy magnetohydrodynamic drive in the movie). According to Chinese state media, the nation's new nuclear submarines will soon use a similarly silent, cutting-edge pumpjet.

Paramount Pictures

In Tom Clancy's book (and, later, the 1990 film) _The Hunt For Red October,_ a Soviet submarine debuts a revolutionary, ultra-quiet engine that uses pumpjets and electrical propulsion technology to elude its foes. Chinese state media has reported that the nation is fitting its newest nuclear sub with an engine that sounds a lot like Clancy's imaginings in the real world.





THE ADMIRAL AND THE PUMPJET

During his interview on state television, Admiral Ma Weiming, developer of the rim-driven pumpjet, shows off a laboratory, with a schematic of the pumpjet visible in the background, at right.

CCTV 13

This month, Chinese state TV channel CCTV 13 broadcast an interview with a top Chinese naval engineer, Rear Admiral Ma Weiming. The admiral is notably responsible for the development of multiple Chinese naval electromagnetic programs, including the electromagnetic catapult and railguns. In the interview, he stated that the PLAN is fitting its newest nuclear attack submarines with a "shaftless" rim-driven pumpjet, a revolutionary and silent propulsion system.





TYPE 095 SSN

The Type 095 SSN, seen in this speculative fanmade CGI, will likely have VLS cells for launching a wide range of cruise missiles, pumpjet propulsion, and improved quieting technology. (This earlier CGI shows the Type 095 with a more conventional pumpjet, though.)

Medico-MAX

If the system is being put on the latest vessels, it is likely to be used on the first Type 095 nuclear attack submarine (SSN), which is under construction.





RIM DRIVEN THRUSTER

Shown here is a Schottel built rim-driven thruster, used to propel surface ships like yachts with minimal noise (the Chinese miltary rim-driven pumpjet would look similar but much larger).

Schottel

A rim-driven pumpjet has a ring-shaped electrical motor inside the pumpjet shroud, which turns the vane rotor (a vane rotor has the fan blades attached to a rotating band built on a cylinder interior, as opposed to a propeller shaft) inside the pumpjet cavity to create thrust. Previous submarine pumpjets are "shrouded propellers," which consist of a tubular nozzle covering the propeller. By removing the shaft of the propeller, the reduction in the number of moving parts decreases the noise made by the pumpjet, as well as saving hull space. Civilian manufacturers also claim that rim driven pumpjets are easier to maintain, and have less cavitation (bubbles that form during propeller movement), making them even more quiet.





IEPS

Rear Admiral Ma presents a component of the new Chinese IEPS for naval warships; the Chinese variant is the world's first IEPS to run on a medium-voltage, direct-current system.

CCTV 13

Also in the video background was a large piece of electrical machinery, which is part of the PLAN's Integrated Electrical Propulsion System (IEPS). IEPS turns all the output of the ship's engine into electricity, unlike traditional propulsion designs, which convert engine and reactor output into mechanical action to turn the propeller shaft.

The high electrical output can be used to power motors for the propellers or potentially high-energy weapons. Additionally, IEPS has far fewer moving parts, making them quieter, and thus ideal for use on submarines. When coupled with quieter reactors like the Type 095's reported natural circulation reactor, the rim-driven pumpjet and IEPS can drastically reduce the acoustic signature of any SSN.

This combination, if it works, would be a significant gain for China's naval power. As China has gained in surface fleet numbers, stealthy planes, and longer-ranged missiles able to target U.S. carriers and air bases, America's submarine force has become viewed as its key advantage in any comparison. In turn, Chinese nuclear submarines have lagged behind competitors in their noisiness. Said another way, these innovations have the potential to strengthen a historic weakness.

The reporting is significant for two more reasons. First, it illustrates the new openness in Chinese state media to discuss the technology behind previously secretive nuclear submarines, suggesting a greater confidence in showing off new military technology in order to impress domestic and foreign audiences.

Secondly, if the system works, the Chinese may have stolen a march on the Americans and British, whose Columbia and Dreadnought nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) have the option for rim-drive pumpjets, but will not enter service until 2030. While the system would be on China's attack submarine, Chinese SSBNs could also use the rim-drive pumpjet to enhance their stealth and survivability—and, by extension, the credibility of China's second strike nuclear capability. These new submarine propulsion systems may not just power China's submarines of the future, but give Beijing a true superpower's underwater armada.

http://www.popsci.com/china-new-submarine-engine-revolutionize-underwater-warfare

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## cirr

Han Patriot said:


> Agreed, but the shaftless propeller was coupled to tht generator as a system, and the board showed wht it was. I guess China would not officially acknowledge it...but you saw that board. He did point at the board and said it won a prize without elaborating further.
> 
> The sceptism here is so strong even when a rear admiral was showing it. A working prototype with a board explaining the technology is just a dummy. There was already a research paper published and yet people dont believe if. I guess let us just assume the Chinese are dumb and can never come out with something advanced.



Guys from certain corners of the world in this forum have difficulty in accepting the fact that Chinese are among the smartest people in the world.

There is nothing that we can't accomplish when two conditions are met: money and time.

Do I sound racist? Of course not. I say this matter-of-fact-ly.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Han Patriot

Cybernetics said:


> *China's new submarine engine is poised to revolutionize underwater warfare*
> 
> It looks a lot like 'Red October' in real life.
> 
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 10 hours ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RED OCTOBER SSBN
> 
> _The Red October_, a fictionalized version of the Akula (NATO reporting name Typhoon) submarine, has two pumpjets built into its rear for silent propulsion (though implausibly stated to use a noisy magnetohydrodynamic drive in the movie). According to Chinese state media, the nation's new nuclear submarines will soon use a similarly silent, cutting-edge pumpjet.
> 
> Paramount Pictures
> 
> In Tom Clancy's book (and, later, the 1990 film) _The Hunt For Red October,_ a Soviet submarine debuts a revolutionary, ultra-quiet engine that uses pumpjets and electrical propulsion technology to elude its foes. Chinese state media has reported that the nation is fitting its newest nuclear sub with an engine that sounds a lot like Clancy's imaginings in the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE ADMIRAL AND THE PUMPJET
> 
> During his interview on state television, Admiral Ma Weiming, developer of the rim-driven pumpjet, shows off a laboratory, with a schematic of the pumpjet visible in the background, at right.
> 
> CCTV 13
> 
> This month, Chinese state TV channel CCTV 13 broadcast an interview with a top Chinese naval engineer, Rear Admiral Ma Weiming. The admiral is notably responsible for the development of multiple Chinese naval electromagnetic programs, including the electromagnetic catapult and railguns. In the interview, he stated that the PLAN is fitting its newest nuclear attack submarines with a "shaftless" rim-driven pumpjet, a revolutionary and silent propulsion system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TYPE 095 SSN
> 
> The Type 095 SSN, seen in this speculative fanmade CGI, will likely have VLS cells for launching a wide range of cruise missiles, pumpjet propulsion, and improved quieting technology. (This earlier CGI shows the Type 095 with a more conventional pumpjet, though.)
> 
> Medico-MAX
> 
> If the system is being put on the latest vessels, it is likely to be used on the first Type 095 nuclear attack submarine (SSN), which is under construction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIM DRIVEN THRUSTER
> 
> Shown here is a Schottel built rim-driven thruster, used to propel surface ships like yachts with minimal noise (the Chinese miltary rim-driven pumpjet would look similar but much larger).
> 
> Schottel
> 
> A rim-driven pumpjet has a ring-shaped electrical motor inside the pumpjet shroud, which turns the vane rotor (a vane rotor has the fan blades attached to a rotating band built on a cylinder interior, as opposed to a propeller shaft) inside the pumpjet cavity to create thrust. Previous submarine pumpjets are "shrouded propellers," which consist of a tubular nozzle covering the propeller. By removing the shaft of the propeller, the reduction in the number of moving parts decreases the noise made by the pumpjet, as well as saving hull space. Civilian manufacturers also claim that rim driven pumpjets are easier to maintain, and have less cavitation (bubbles that form during propeller movement), making them even more quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IEPS
> 
> Rear Admiral Ma presents a component of the new Chinese IEPS for naval warships; the Chinese variant is the world's first IEPS to run on a medium-voltage, direct-current system.
> 
> CCTV 13
> 
> Also in the video background was a large piece of electrical machinery, which is part of the PLAN's Integrated Electrical Propulsion System (IEPS). IEPS turns all the output of the ship's engine into electricity, unlike traditional propulsion designs, which convert engine and reactor output into mechanical action to turn the propeller shaft.
> 
> The high electrical output can be used to power motors for the propellers or potentially high-energy weapons. Additionally, IEPS has far fewer moving parts, making them quieter, and thus ideal for use on submarines. When coupled with quieter reactors like the Type 095's reported natural circulation reactor, the rim-driven pumpjet and IEPS can drastically reduce the acoustic signature of any SSN.
> 
> This combination, if it works, would be a significant gain for China's naval power. As China has gained in surface fleet numbers, stealthy planes, and longer-ranged missiles able to target U.S. carriers and air bases, America's submarine force has become viewed as its key advantage in any comparison. In turn, Chinese nuclear submarines have lagged behind competitors in their noisiness. Said another way, these innovations have the potential to strengthen a historic weakness.
> 
> The reporting is significant for two more reasons. First, it illustrates the new openness in Chinese state media to discuss the technology behind previously secretive nuclear submarines, suggesting a greater confidence in showing off new military technology in order to impress domestic and foreign audiences.
> 
> Secondly, if the system works, the Chinese may have stolen a march on the Americans and British, whose Columbia and Dreadnought nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) have the option for rim-drive pumpjets, but will not enter service until 2030. While the system would be on China's attack submarine, Chinese SSBNs could also use the rim-drive pumpjet to enhance their stealth and survivability—and, by extension, the credibility of China's second strike nuclear capability. These new submarine propulsion systems may not just power China's submarines of the future, but give Beijing a true superpower's underwater armada.
> 
> http://www.popsci.com/china-new-submarine-engine-revolutionize-underwater-warfare


Jeffrey Lin, your analysis is spot on...correct term is IEPS and yes it is to be coupled to a shaftless propeller

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> Wrong. During the interview, Ma said,
> 
> “这两个得了一等奖了……这个也得了一个一等奖的……这个后来因为有了这两个技术（作为基础），这个就是我说的，是我们团队在世界上第一个领先项目，领先就是领先美国。”
> 
> It is clear that what Ma mentioned were all generators. This is also conformed by Ma's speech,
> 
> “3兆瓦级高速感应电机系统很快研制成功。这一创新成果先于美国研制成功，几步跨越确立了我国在该领域的国际领先地位。”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Ma meant is that the 3 MW HSIG has been applied already.



So, to be clear, Ma never mentioned anything about a rim-driven pumpjet? Or is that usually implied as being part of the IEPS package?


----------



## Han Patriot

cirr said:


> Guys from certain corners of the world in this forum have difficulty in accepting the fact that Chinese are among the smartest people in the world.
> 
> There is nothing that we can't accomplish when two conditions are met: money and time.
> 
> Do I sound racist? Of course not. I say this matter-of-fact-ly.


Imagine a country poorer than India 30 years ago...now 5x larger...it doesn't take an genius to see these people are not idiots. Given proper funding, training and infrastructure, i am confident not in an indic bragging way but a sinic result driven way, we will overtake the west technologically



SinoSoldier said:


> So, to be clear, Ma never mentioned anything about a rim-driven pumpjet? Or is that usually implied as being part of the IEPS package?


He didn't say anything about shaftless props, he pointed at the IEPS said its being used and then pointed to a board showing the propeller and said won prizes...but you can see the whole system is coupled in the lab as an integrated system. The propeller is seen coupled in one of the frames under the board describing it. There is a Chinese saying You don't have to completely draw a sausage to know it's a sausage.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> So, to be clear, Ma never mentioned anything about a rim-driven pumpjet? Or is that usually implied as being part of the IEPS package?


He claimed China is leading US by 10years in this area. Chinese scientist unlike India and Russia one, do not make unsubstantial tall claim that is not attainable. They will be sacked by CPC if their claim is found to be willfully claim.

While the western and foreigner media will keep trying to fabricated and malign Chinese scientist as boastful and make tall claim which is unfounded. My many years of Chinese scientist following conclusion is, they are very humble and only dare to make certain bold statement when they have experiment or even already implemented the system before making the statement.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## samsara

cirr said:


> Guys from certain corners of the world in this forum have difficulty in accepting the fact that Chinese are among the smartest people in the world.
> 
> There is nothing that we can't accomplish when two conditions are met: money and time.
> 
> Do I sound racist? Of course not. I say this matter-of-fact-ly.


I believe some are having the deep-seated disbelief because they take the regular dose of the widely pumped meme by the captured media that China is only capable of making low cost products and good copycats.

To say it in blatantly rude language China is only capable of copying, doing reverse engineering and stealing the technologies.

But there is no need to go extra miles to convince any one! Just let it be that. Just tell *as deemed necessary*, no more and no less, and it should be the principle! The Art of War should be adopted. Those who care to read and find out and be receptive will know. Those who don't, will stick with their made-to-believe values. No hard feeling.

What I do care, the real continuous progresses... whether the "Free World" recognizes it or not! 

I still look forward for another decade or two when things will be way much more obvious in all or most aspects of life whereas denial is futile! 

Btw, the same poster, "*superdog*" at SDF posted a VERY GOOD piece of pros & cons on China's military info disclosure approach lately at page 117 at the same link as posted here in the earlier page. Read it there.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Beast

samsara said:


> I believe some are having the deep-seated disbelief because they take the regular dose of the widely pumped meme by the captured media that China is only capable of making low cost products and good copycats.
> 
> To say it in blatantly rude language China is only capable of copying, doing reverse engineering and stealing the technologies.
> 
> But there is no need to go extra miles to convince any one! Just let it be that. Just tell *as deemed necessary*, no more and no less, and it should be the principle! The Art of War should be adopted. Those who care to read and find out and be receptive will know. Those who don't, will stick with their made-to-believe values. No hard feeling.
> 
> What I do care, the real continuous progresses... whether the "Free World" recognizes it or not!
> 
> I still look forward for another decade or two when things will be way much more obvious in all or most aspects of life whereas denial is futile!



We are not to convince idiots but to rebuke fabricated lies.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## grey boy 2

真的是无轴，内圈是转子，外圈是定子，直接通电。

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## grey boy 2

094A SSBN performing a "S" turn 
众所周知，核潜艇因为使用核动力，具备常规潜艇难以企及的高航速，这也是核潜艇的巨大优势之一。中国094A核潜艇的水面最高航速达到20节以上，甚至能像一般舰船那样来个S形机动。（来源：辽宁号指挥长）

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


> 094A SSBN performing a "S" turn
> 众所周知，核潜艇因为使用核动力，具备常规潜艇难以企及的高航速，这也是核潜艇的巨大优势之一。中国094A核潜艇的水面最高航速达到20节以上，甚至能像一般舰船那样来个S形机动。（来源：辽宁号指挥长）


良好的机动性。水上能航行20节，水下还得了。

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

JL-2B submarine launch ICBM

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Han Patriot

grey boy 2 said:


> 真的是无轴，内圈是转子，外圈是定子，直接通电。


They will never believe it until they see it, after this they are going to compare and say it's lousy and we need to buy Russian, but Russia doesn't have this technology, LOL

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Beast

Han Patriot said:


> They will never believe it until they see it, after this they are going to compare and say it's lousy and we need to buy Russian, but Russia doesn't have this technology, LOL


Next time you will hear Chinese say " USN submarine is so noisy that we can heard it from SCS the moment they left Pearl Harbor".

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Beast said:


> Next time you will hear Chinese say " USN submarine is so noisy that we can heard it from SCS the moment they left Pearl Harbor".



I doubt those "Chinese members" from CD are real Chinese. They are either Hanjian or foreigners who can speak Chinese.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## CAD

*China's new submarine engine is poised to revolutionize underwater warfare*


It looks a lot like 'Red October' in real life.

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer June 2, 2017








RED OCTOBER SSBN

_The Red October_, a fictionalized version of the Akula (NATO reporting name Typhoon) submarine, has two pumpjets built into its rear for silent propulsion (though implausibly stated to use a noisy magnetohydrodynamic drive in the movie). According to Chinese state media, the nation's new nuclear submarines will soon use a similarly silent, cutting-edge pumpjet.

Paramount Pictures

In Tom Clancy's book (and, later, the 1990 film) _The Hunt For Red October,_ a Soviet submarine debuts a revolutionary, ultra-quiet engine that uses pumpjets and electrical propulsion technology to elude its foes. Chinese state media has reported that the nation is fitting its newest nuclear sub with an engine that sounds a lot like Clancy's imaginings in the real world.





THE ADMIRAL AND THE PUMPJET

During his interview on state television, Admiral Ma Weiming, developer of the rim-driven pumpjet, shows off a laboratory, with a schematic of the pumpjet visible in the background, at right.

CCTV 13

This month, Chinese state TV channel CCTV 13 broadcast an interview with a top Chinese naval engineer, Rear Admiral Ma Weiming. The admiral is notably responsible for the development of multiple Chinese naval electromagnetic programs, including the electromagnetic catapult and railguns. In the interview, he stated that the PLAN is fitting its newest nuclear attack submarines with a "shaftless" rim-driven pumpjet, a revolutionary and silent propulsion system.





TYPE 095 SSN


The Type 095 SSN, seen in this speculative fanmade CGI, will likely have VLS cells for launching a wide range of cruise missiles, pumpjet propulsion, and improved quieting technology. (This earlier CGI shows the Type 095 with a more conventional pumpjet, though.)

Medico-MAX

If the system is being put on the latest vessels, it is likely to be used on the first Type 095 nuclear attack submarine (SSN), which is under construction.






RIM DRIVEN THRUSTER


Shown here is a Schottel built rim-driven thruster, used to propel surface ships like yachts with minimal noise (the Chinese miltary rim-driven pumpjet would look similar but much larger).

Schottel

A rim-driven pumpjet has a ring-shaped electrical motor inside the pumpjet shroud, which turns the vane rotor (a vane rotor has the fan blades attached to a rotating band built on a cylinder interior, as opposed to a propeller shaft) inside the pumpjet cavity to create thrust. Previous submarine pumpjets are "shrouded propellers," which consist of a tubular nozzle covering the propeller. By removing the shaft of the propeller, the reduction in the number of moving parts decreases the noise made by the pumpjet, as well as saving hull space. Civilian manufacturers also claim that rim driven pumpjets are easier to maintain, and have less cavitation (bubbles that form during propeller movement), making them even more quiet.






IEPS

Rear Admiral Ma presents a component of the new Chinese IEPS for naval warships; the Chinese variant is the world's first IEPS to run on a medium-voltage, direct-current system.

CCTV 13

Also in the video background was a large piece of electrical machinery, which is part of the PLAN's Integrated Electrical Propulsion System (IEPS). IEPS turns all the output of the ship's engine into electricity, unlike traditional propulsion designs, which convert engine and reactor output into mechanical action to turn the propeller shaft.

The high electrical output can be used to power motors for the propellers or potentially high-energy weapons. Additionally, IEPS has far fewer moving parts, making them quieter, and thus ideal for use on submarines. When coupled with quieter reactors like the Type 095's reported natural circulation reactor, the rim-driven pumpjet and IEPS can drastically reduce the acoustic signature of any SSN.

This combination, if it works, would be a significant gain for China's naval power. As China has gained in surface fleet numbers, stealthy planes, and longer-ranged missiles able to target U.S. carriers and air bases, America's submarine force has become viewed as its key advantage in any comparison. In turn, Chinese nuclear submarines have lagged behind competitors in their noisiness. Said another way, these innovations have the potential to strengthen a historic weakness.

The reporting is significant for two more reasons. First, it illustrates the new openness in Chinese state media to discuss the technology behind previously secretive nuclear submarines, suggesting a greater confidence in showing off new military technology in order to impress domestic and foreign audiences.

Secondly, if the system works, the Chinese may have a march on the Americans and British, whose Columbia and Dreadnought nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) have the option for rim-drive pumpjets, but will not enter service until 2030. While the system would be on China's attack submarine, Chinese SSBNs could also use the rim-drive pumpjet to enhance their stealth and survivability—and, by extension, the credibility of China's second strike nuclear capability. These new submarine propulsion systems may not just power China's submarines of the future, but give Beijing a true superpower's underwater armada.

http://www.popsci.com/china-new-submarine-engine-revolutionize-underwater-warfare

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

CAD said:


> *China's new submarine engine is poised to revolutionize underwater warfare*
> 
> 
> It looks a lot like 'Red October' in real life.
> 
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer June 2, 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RED OCTOBER SSBN
> 
> _The Red October_, a fictionalized version of the Akula (NATO reporting name Typhoon) submarine, has two pumpjets built into its rear for silent propulsion (though implausibly stated to use a noisy magnetohydrodynamic drive in the movie). According to Chinese state media, the nation's new nuclear submarines will soon use a similarly silent, cutting-edge pumpjet.
> 
> Paramount Pictures
> 
> In Tom Clancy's book (and, later, the 1990 film) _The Hunt For Red October,_ a Soviet submarine debuts a revolutionary, ultra-quiet engine that uses pumpjets and electrical propulsion technology to elude its foes. Chinese state media has reported that the nation is fitting its newest nuclear sub with an engine that sounds a lot like Clancy's imaginings in the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE ADMIRAL AND THE PUMPJET
> 
> During his interview on state television, Admiral Ma Weiming, developer of the rim-driven pumpjet, shows off a laboratory, with a schematic of the pumpjet visible in the background, at right.
> 
> CCTV 13
> 
> This month, Chinese state TV channel CCTV 13 broadcast an interview with a top Chinese naval engineer, Rear Admiral Ma Weiming. The admiral is notably responsible for the development of multiple Chinese naval electromagnetic programs, including the electromagnetic catapult and railguns. In the interview, he stated that the PLAN is fitting its newest nuclear attack submarines with a "shaftless" rim-driven pumpjet, a revolutionary and silent propulsion system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TYPE 095 SSN
> 
> 
> The Type 095 SSN, seen in this speculative fanmade CGI, will likely have VLS cells for launching a wide range of cruise missiles, pumpjet propulsion, and improved quieting technology. (This earlier CGI shows the Type 095 with a more conventional pumpjet, though.)
> 
> Medico-MAX
> 
> If the system is being put on the latest vessels, it is likely to be used on the first Type 095 nuclear attack submarine (SSN), which is under construction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIM DRIVEN THRUSTER
> 
> 
> Shown here is a Schottel built rim-driven thruster, used to propel surface ships like yachts with minimal noise (the Chinese miltary rim-driven pumpjet would look similar but much larger).
> 
> Schottel
> 
> A rim-driven pumpjet has a ring-shaped electrical motor inside the pumpjet shroud, which turns the vane rotor (a vane rotor has the fan blades attached to a rotating band built on a cylinder interior, as opposed to a propeller shaft) inside the pumpjet cavity to create thrust. Previous submarine pumpjets are "shrouded propellers," which consist of a tubular nozzle covering the propeller. By removing the shaft of the propeller, the reduction in the number of moving parts decreases the noise made by the pumpjet, as well as saving hull space. Civilian manufacturers also claim that rim driven pumpjets are easier to maintain, and have less cavitation (bubbles that form during propeller movement), making them even more quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IEPS
> 
> Rear Admiral Ma presents a component of the new Chinese IEPS for naval warships; the Chinese variant is the world's first IEPS to run on a medium-voltage, direct-current system.
> 
> CCTV 13
> 
> Also in the video background was a large piece of electrical machinery, which is part of the PLAN's Integrated Electrical Propulsion System (IEPS). IEPS turns all the output of the ship's engine into electricity, unlike traditional propulsion designs, which convert engine and reactor output into mechanical action to turn the propeller shaft.
> 
> The high electrical output can be used to power motors for the propellers or potentially high-energy weapons. Additionally, IEPS has far fewer moving parts, making them quieter, and thus ideal for use on submarines. When coupled with quieter reactors like the Type 095's reported natural circulation reactor, the rim-driven pumpjet and IEPS can drastically reduce the acoustic signature of any SSN.
> 
> This combination, if it works, would be a significant gain for China's naval power. As China has gained in surface fleet numbers, stealthy planes, and longer-ranged missiles able to target U.S. carriers and air bases, America's submarine force has become viewed as its key advantage in any comparison. In turn, Chinese nuclear submarines have lagged behind competitors in their noisiness. Said another way, these innovations have the potential to strengthen a historic weakness.
> 
> The reporting is significant for two more reasons. First, it illustrates the new openness in Chinese state media to discuss the technology behind previously secretive nuclear submarines, suggesting a greater confidence in showing off new military technology in order to impress domestic and foreign audiences.
> 
> Secondly, if the system works, the Chinese may have a march on the Americans and British, whose Columbia and Dreadnought nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) have the option for rim-drive pumpjets, but will not enter service until 2030. While the system would be on China's attack submarine, Chinese SSBNs could also use the rim-drive pumpjet to enhance their stealth and survivability—and, by extension, the credibility of China's second strike nuclear capability. These new submarine propulsion systems may not just power China's submarines of the future, but give Beijing a true superpower's underwater armada.
> 
> http://www.popsci.com/china-new-submarine-engine-revolutionize-underwater-warfare


You just *cannot hotlink* those pictures from most of the web incl. the popsci, the pictures will have pretty short-lived moment like this one, you need to first upload those pics to some free image hosting then post the image link instead (of the direct hotlinking). Hope it helps for a neat posting.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## grey boy 2

Another new AIP (039C)? submarine delivered to the navy to celebrate the 63 anniversary of the submarines fleet formation, its featuring with much improved noise reduction, long endurance and most of all, high tech data link and advanced electronic communication capability
【指挥长快讯：在中国人民海军潜艇部队成立63周年的今天，广东台山某潜艇基地正式接收装备某国产新型潜艇，该潜艇具有水下噪音低、潜行时间长、电子信息化程度高等一系列特点。另据消息，之前美国p3c飞机经过香港领空的事件有可能也是去下川岛刺探的！




】（资料图）

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## grey boy 2

One more new sub delivered, looks like the new submarine factory is on progress as expected

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## grey boy 2

New AIP submarine

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## nang2

grey boy 2 said:


> One more new sub delivered, looks like the new submarine factory is on progress as expected


It is a nuclear attack sub, isn't it?



grey boy 2 said:


>


first picture is of Japanese


----------



## grey boy 2

nang2 said:


> It is a nuclear attack sub, isn't it?
> 
> 
> first picture is of Japanese


Thanks for the reminder bro, i'm not sure, just usually posted as from the site


----------



## Daniel808

nang2 said:


> It is a nuclear attack sub, isn't it?





grey boy 2 said:


> Thanks for the reminder bro, i'm not sure, just usually posted as from the site




No, bro.
It's a Yuan Class AIP Subs.
Maybe, C Variant

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## grey boy 2

HD pictures of "094 SSBN" from "兵工科技" magazine

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## grey boy 2



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

Rare picture of submarines undergoing major maintenance and upgrade

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## onebyone

China’s aircraft carrier technology is still far behind the USA. China only has one refurbished Soviet aircraft carrier and a domestic submarine based on the Soviet carrier will be operational in 2020. China’s next aircraft carriers could start getting up to the level of 1980 era US carriers in size and some technology in the late 2020s.

China’s submarine technology is more rapidly closing the technology gap and also could have numeric superiority by 2025.

China’s operational undersea force has 63 vessels – five nuclear-powered attack submarines, four nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, and 54 diesel-powered attack submarines.

However, in fewer than three years this force will grow to between 69 and 78 submarines.

The number of anti-ship cruise missile submarines is also increasingly significantly. Since the 1990s, China has built 13 Song-class attack submarines and 17 Yuan-class ones with diesel-electric air-independent power attack submarines. Three more Yuans are slated for deployment by 2020.

Also, eight of China’s 12 Russian-made Kilo-class submarines can launch cruise missiles, which are designed to deliver large warheads over long distances.

China will start construction in early the 2020s modern and advanced missile submarine, the Type 096. The Type 096 will also be armed with a new more lethal missile, the JL-3.

And Beijing is working on a new class of nuclear-powered attack submarines, based on the Shang class called the Type 093B guided missile nuclear-attack submarine.

According to the Pentagon, the Type 093B “not only would improve the PLA Navy’s anti-surface warfare capability, but might also provide it with a more clandestine land-attack option.”

Many of the newer subs will be outfitted with China’s supersonic anti-ship cruise missile, the YJ-18, regarded by the Pentagon as one of the most lethal anti-ship weapons. Chinese analysts have called the YJ-18 “the most perfect anti-ship cruise missile.”

China is also building the world’s largest submarine factory.





Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation is building a giant submarine that will have two parallel assembly lines. The gigantic hall reportedly is where China will begin construction on is latest attack submarine, the Type 095.

The US can build submarine construction at about six at a time. The one new chinese factory will be able to make four at a time. China can likely build several large submarine factories and still has a few smaller factories. China is on track to vastly out produce the USA in submarines that will be closer to technological parity.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/...ut-submarine-technology-parity-is-nearer.html

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## nang2

I won't believe it until I see four 095 being rolled out every year.


----------



## grey boy 2

New submarine (credits to [浩汉原创] 江南厂门前偶遇新黑鱼)

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Beast

At that rate, almost all Ming Sub and Kilo can retired soon.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## grey boy 2

The evolution of 039 series (039外形上的变迁)

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## onebyone

*Why Chinese submarines could soon be quieter than US ones*

Top naval engineer says new propulsion system will put PLA Navy ‘way ahead’ of US


PUBLISHED : Tuesday, 04 July, 2017, 7:00pm
UPDATED : Tuesday, 04 July, 2017, 7:00pm







The US Navy’s Pacific fleet used to mock Chinese submarines for being too noisy and too easy to detect, but that has largely been remedied in recent years and China is now on the cusp of taking the lead in a cutting-edge propulsion technology.
Naval experts said the new technology would help China build more elusive submarines, but might also prompt the United States to ramp up anti-submarine warfare measures.

In a recent interview with China Central Television, Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, a leading Chinese naval engineer, showed a component of a new Integrated Electrical Propulsion System (IEPS) for naval warships in a laboratory. He said the system, which turns all the engine’s output into electricity, and a rim-driven pump-jet had been fitted to the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s newest nuclear submarines.

Does China’s deep-sea tech upgrade point to submarine signals network under Pacific?

“This is one of our work team’s first world-leading projects, which has been used on [China’s] next-generation nuclear submarines,” Ma said in May. “[Our technology] is now way ahead of the United States, which has also been developing similar technology.”

Ma’s exalted status in the PLA Navy was highlighted by a photograph of then navy commander Admiral Wu Shengli holding an umbrella for Ma during an inspection of the PLA Naval University of Engineering in Wuhan, where Ma works, on a rainy day in June last year. The photo, posted on the social media website of the PLA’s _Navy Magazine,_ sparked public curiosity about why the commander would give such “preferential treatment” to a rear admiral.










Ma told CCTV “the ultimate goal” of developing the new propulsion system “was aimed at solving the problem of deploying high-energy radio-frequency (HERF) weapons on board”, hinting that China was close to emulating the US in that regard.

HERF, a form of directed-energy weapon, can fire highly focused energy at a target, damaging it accurately and quickly. Directed-energy weapons require vast amount of electricity – something IEPS can deliver – and can counter the threats posed by fast missiles such as ballistic missiles, hypersonic cruise missiles and hypersonic glide vehicles. Besides China, the US, Russia and India are also developing them.

The CCTV report did not say which types of Chinese submarines would use the pump-jet propulsion system, but mainland military websites said they believed Ma had hinted at the new-generation, nuclear-powered Type 095 attack submarines and Type 096 ballistic missile submarines.

The Chinese acoustics research that might help shield submarines from sonar

Collin Koh Swee Lean, a submarine expert from the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies at Singapore’s Nanyang Technological University, said Ma’s remark showcased the growing scientific and technological maturity of China’s submarine development.

“In the long term, if the pump-jet propulsion is declared fully operational and tested successfully ... future [Chinese] submarines would be equipped with pump-jet propulsion as a standard design feature,” he said, adding that the new technology would also benefit other naval shipbuilding projects, such as surface warships.

“The operational/strategic ramifications would be that China would muster stealthier submarines ... and this essentially broadens various options for Beijing where it comes to the peacetime use of its naval capabilities.”










A rim-driven pump-jet has a ring-shaped electrical motor inside the pump-jet shroud, which turns the vane rotor inside the pump-jet cavity to create thrust. The design reduces noise by removing the shaft and also creates fewer water bubbles, making it even quieter.

Modern American and British submarines already use pump-jet propulsion, but Koh said the technology had not been adopted more widely because its design was complex, and just a few countries could support the technology with “a good deal of funding and technical expertise”.

Beijing-based naval expert Li Jie said China had put a lot of resources and encouragement into developing cutting-edge technologies, including the pump-jet, air-independent propulsion (AIP) for non-nuclear submarines and other measures as part of its efforts to make Chinese submarines stealthier.

“Both the ultra-quiet engine and AIP will help Chinese subs to elude foes as high concealment is very important to all nuclear attack subs,” Li said. “Quieter subs means stronger stealth capability, which will help them to conduct surprise attacks when necessary.”

South China Sea air strips’ main role is ‘to defend Hainan nuclear submarine base’

China has built Asia’s largest submarine base at Yulin, on the south coast of Hainan, near Sanya. The base features underground submarine facilities with tunnel access, shielding Chinese submarines that enter the South China Sea from the prying eyes of US reconnaissance satellites. That’s prompted American warships and aircraft to conduct more close surveillance operations in the disputed waters, which are claimed wholly or in part by mainland China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan.

Koh warned it was foreseeable that the US Navy would ramp up anti-submarine warfare measures to detect, classify and track Chinese submarines if they were harder to detect after being fitted with pump-jet propulsion and other stealth equipment.










“This more intensified cat-and-mouse game would also result in the risk of underwater accidents ... between submarines or with surface ships,” he said. “The quieter the submarine is, the greater the likelihood of such navigational safety hazards and, potentially, they could cause diplomatic incidents in the context of those maritime disputes and of course, the persistent Sino-US divergence in views over foreign military activities in coastal states’ exclusive economic zones. ”

The Chinese navy is likely to begin construction of the Type 096 submarines, which will be armed with 24 JL-3 intercontinental submarine-launched ballistic missiles, in the early 2020s, according to the Pentagon’s annual report to the US Congress this year.

US and India discuss anti-submarine warfare in latest move to keep China in check

Ma, 57, became a household name in 2011 when he announced during a speech to accept a national technology award that his team had successfully developed a Chinese electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS).

Ma, a PLA deputy to the National People’s Congress, has since been asked by the media at the annual sessions of the national legislature when his EMALS will be fitted to China’s next-generation aircraft carriers.

“I am very unhappy because I have no power to decide when my EMALS will be used,” a frank Ma told reporters on the sidelines of this year’s NPC session in Beijing in March. “But I dare to tell you that the EMALS developed by my working team is more advanced and reliable than the US system to be used on their Ford-class aircraft carrier.”










The first of America’s Ford-class carriers, the first US vessel to use EMALS, completed sea trials in May.

Sources close to the navy told the _South China Morning Post_earlier this year that Ma’s EMALS might be fitted on China’s third-generation nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, the Type 003. However, the Central Military Commission, chaired by Xi, has not decided when the Type 003 will be built, and construction work has not yet started on the second-generation Type 002.

The PLA Navy has two aircraft carriers, the Liaoning, a refitted Soviet carrier commissioned in 2012, and the domestically built Type 001A, which was launched on April 26. They are both conventionally powered platforms featuring ski-jump take-off ramps.

‘Blatant hypocrisy’: Why China is being criticised over its opposition to Australia buying stealthy Japanese submarines

Xi has urged the PLA to pursue a “strong army dream”, but when asked by the _Post_ whether he hoped to see his EMALS fitted to a Chinese aircraft carrier one day, Ma said he “never has any dreams” and was focused on finding practical projects for his team that would release its potential.

“Whether the new technologies will be used never bothers me, because I’ve found that my task is to cultivate talent, meaning I have to create more opportunities for them and help them solve problems,” Ma said. “For example, compared with the US, China couldn’t devote as much funding to developing the electromagnetic aircraft launch system and advanced arresting gear (AAG) system, but I understood that our valuable resource was that I could mobilise my hundreds of talented students.”

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...nese-submarines-could-soon-be-quieter-us-ones

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## grey boy 2

094A

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## hassamun

*With better technology, the PLAN's undersea fleet would go on the offensive
*





Word has it that China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy has staged a breakthrough in submarine propulsion. At any rate, that’s the word from marine engineer Rear Adm. Ma Weiming, a specialist in electromagnetic systems.

Adm. Ma recently reported on state-run CCTV that shipwrights are installing shaftless rim-driven pumpjets in China’s “next-generation nuclear submarines,” meaning attack or ballistic-missile boats. Ma crowed that Chinese engineers are “now way ahead of the United States, which has also been developing similar technology.”

If Adm. Ma is playing it straight — rather than hyping promising but yet-to-be-proven gadgetry — then the PLA Navy is poised to overcome a technological and tactical defect that has plagued it since its founding. American submariners long lampooned Soviet and Chinese nuclear boats for being noisy and easy to detect.

PLA Navy boats remained backward long after the Cold War. Ultraquiet propulsion, though, would put an end to unquestioned U.S. acoustic supremacy, opening up new operational and strategic vistas before the PLA Navy while ushering in a deadlier phase of U.S.-China strategic competition.

The rim-driven pumpjet is an electrically driven “propulsor” that simplifies and thus quiets an engineering plant. Older technology typically uses gears to connect the elements of a drive train. Steam spins the innards of high-speed turbines. Turbines spin far too fast for any main propulsion shaft or propeller, however, so ships outfitted with traditional engineering plants have “main reduction gears” that step down the speed of rotation drastically, to speeds useful for the shaft that turns the screw and impels the hull through the water.
The design also reduces cavitation — bubbles churned up when a propeller turns rapidly underwater, leaving low-pressure zones behind the blades where water can boil. Cavitation emits noise that enemy sonar operators may hear. Thus it can alert hostile anti-submarine-warfare forces, helping them find, track and target the emitter. Hence the allure of novel technology that suppresses cavitation.

*


A Chinese Type 094 ballistic missile submarine. Photo via Chinese Internet*

Now, there are ample grounds for skepticism toward Adm. Ma’s claims. New technology remains a hypothesis until tested out in real-world operations. But at the same time it’s doubtful Ma was simply showboating for Chinese T.V. viewers.

Rising competitors have caught up with established navies before, or even leapfrogged them in certain areas. The Imperial Japanese Navy defied expectations, devising the Long Lance torpedo that it deployed to devastating effect at Pearl Harbor. The Soviet Navy concocted anti-ship missiles and torpedoes that give the U.S. Navy fits to this day.

Thus it behooves us to ask _what if — _what if China pulls off a technological leap of similar magnitude?

Set aside the question of whose submarines are quieter than whose. Boastfulness — the urge to be the biggest, best and most of everything, and to have others acknowledge it — forms a strand in China’s cultural DNA. Ma is indulging in it. But no one is going to hold a contest to measure noise given off by U.S. Navy and PLA Navy boats, and award victory to the quietest fleet.

Combat is the true arbiter of military effectiveness — and undersea combat hinges on whether “hiders” or “finders” prevail. It pits a sub’s capacity for silent running against the acuity of ASW sensors and operators trying to ferret it out.

In other words, if American hiders remain quiet enough to evade Chinese finders, they hold the advantage of stealth. If acoustics has befriended the PLA Navy, then American finders have a problem. And if both submarine services can elude ASW hunters, then both they and surface fleets are in dire peril.

“Peer” submarines could engage one another at close proximity in the deep, or strike against surface vessels without warning. Indeed, the surface of embattled oceans could verge on no-go territory. That prospect makes this thought experiment about the future of subsurface warfare worthwhile.

*


A sonar technician aboard the destroyer USS ‘Howard’ tosses a sonar buoy into the Pacific. U.S. Navy photo*

Suppose rim-driven pumpjet propulsors do pan out for China’s navy. How might commanders use newly elusive boats?

First of all, they might afford nuclear-powered ballistic-missile submarines — SSBNs, known to U.S. submariners as “boomers” — precedence when installing newfangled propulsion hardware. The PLA Navy already operates a sizable fleet of diesel-electric attack subs that satisfices for anti-access/area-denial purposes. They can make shift until silent-running nuclear-powered attack subs, or SSNs, join the fleet.

SSNs can wait. By contrast, the navy stands at the brink of fielding its first effective SSBNs.

Fabricating a new capability would seem to take precedence over improving an old but adequate one — especially if the nation’s nuclear deterrent depends on the new capability. If this logic prevails, how will the PLA Navy employ working boomers?

To all appearances, it envisions employing the South China Sea as an offshore “bastion” for SSBNs, much as the Soviet Navy of yesteryear made semi-enclosed waters into protected bastions for its missile boats. Undersea deterrence, then, probably numbers among the motives impelling the PLA to transform rocks and atolls into fortified outposts, acquaint itself with underwater hydrography, and so forth.

China’s Type 094 SSBNs or their pumpjet-equipped descendants could slip out of the sub base on Hainan Island, descend into South China Sea waters, lose themselves in the depths and dare rival navies to come into China’s “near seas” — expanses that fall under the shadow of land-based PLA missiles and aircraft — to hunt them.

Or if Chinese Communist Party leaders feel comfortable granting SSBN skippers the liberty to venture outside the near seas (though that’s a lot of atomic firepower to entrust to a naval officer whose loyalties might prove suspect), the Luzon Strait affords a convenient entryway to the western Pacific. Within the strait lies the Bashi Channel, a deep underwater thoroughfare into the Pacific.

The weather between Luzon and the southern tip of Taiwan often works against airborne ASW. Subs transiting the channel can conceal their whereabouts by diving beneath thermal layers that play tricks with sound. An ultraquiet SSBN, in short, could thrive in South China Sea patrol grounds — and beyond.

*


A Chinese boomer. Photo via Chinese Internet*

Second, PLA Navy commanders doubtless salivate at the prospect of ultraquiet attack boats. They could merge new SSNs — presumably the Type 095s under development — into their anti-access defenses against the U.S. Pacific Fleet. They could package new with old units inventively. For example, they could station a picket line of diesel boats and older Type 093 SSNs along likely axes of approach from Hawaii or U.S. West Coast seaports.

Speedy but quiet Type 095s could act as “skirmishers,” operating forward of the pickets. SSNs could snipe at the Pacific Fleet’s flanks during its westward voyage while scouting for the rest of the fleet, and for shore-based PLA defenders. They could mount piecemeal attacks against the American fleet, or even try to herd it toward the picket line for additional punishment.

PLA commanders thus could use ultramodern platforms to wring new value out of legacy platforms. Such an approach would harness the latest technology while staying true to China’s Maoist tradition of “active defense.”

Active defense — which, as Chinese military folk remind us, remains the “essence” of Chinese military strategy decades after Mao Zedong’s demise — envisions luring foes deep into Chinese-held territory. PLA defenders stage tactical actions to weary enemies as they come. They fall on isolated units and try to smash them. Successive small-scale attacks enfeeble enemy forces, setting the stage for decisive battle on Chinese ground.

Think about the options that may become available to Chinese skippers as propulsor technology matures. Diesel boats could act as western Pacific pickets, or congregate in wolfpacks to concentrate firepower from multiple axes. Relatively noisy Type 093s could act as decoys, distracting American ASW hunters while Type 095s spring ambushes at opportune moments. And on and on. Commanders could combine and recombine forces in limitless ways — in keeping with China’s way of war.

Call it undersea active defense.

*


Sonar technicians aboard the destroyer USS ‘Howard.’ U.S. Navy photo*

Third, the advent of quiet-running SSNs would let the PLA Navy play submarine-on-submarine games reminiscent of those once played by U.S. and Soviet boats.

To date, lacking a peer to U.S. Navy _Los Angeles_– or _Virginia_-class SSNs, the PLA Navy has employed its submarine fleet mainly as an anti-surface force. It waits offshore for hostile forces to approach, then does its best to pummel them with missiles or torpedoes.

American submariners, by contrast, will tell you the best ASW weapon is another submarine. They view hunting subs as their chief contribution to high-seas warfare. Chinese submariners might follow suit if their boats ran quiet enough, and boasted sensors sensitive enough, to make sub-on-sub ASW an option. Or they might incorporate ASW into their operational portfolio while retaining the emphasis on anti-ship missions.

Either way, PLA submarine operations would take on an intensely offensive hue. No longer would the sub force be a mostly static force lofting anti-ship missiles toward adversary surface task forces. It would seek out adversary subs as well — and, if successful, project China’s anti-access defenses into the depths in a serious way for the first time.

No longer could the United States’ silent service prowl Asian waters with impunity. Indeed, if both fleets were comparable in stealth, cat-and-mouse games might predominate. This would be a dangerous business. Reaction times would be minimal if boats could only detect and track one another at intimate range. Proximity would magnify the prospect of collisions, accidents of other types, or even inadvertent exchanges of fire.

Both navies and their political masters must think ahead about how to manage close-quarters encounters in the deep.

*


The carrier USS ‘Nimitz’ in the Pacific. U.S. Navy photo*

And fourth, the debut of pumpjet-equipped SSNs would empower Beijing to mount a standing presence in faraway recesses of the South China Sea and Indian Ocean for the first time.

Diesel boats have ventured into the “far seas” in recent years, but they must put into port at regular intervals to refuel. This exposes them to detection. SSNs can remain at sea, and _under_sea, as long as their food and stores hold out. The crew — not the engineering plant — thus constitutes the limiting factor on a nuclear-powered boat’s at-sea endurance.

The Indian Navy has taken notice of PLA Navy forays into India’s home region, and grasps the implications of high-tech Chinese SSNs cruising the Indian Ocean. Indeed, some Indian mariners deem such a presence a red line for competition between the two navies.

It can be no accident, then, that there’s an anti-submarine flair to this summer’s Malabar exercises among the Indian Navy, U.S. Navy and Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force.

All three navies dispatched aircraft carriers for maneuvers for the first time. The Japanese flattop JS _Izumo_ is a euphemistically dubbed “helicopter destroyer” optimized for hunting submarines. What hostile subs may lurk in the Bay of Bengal, where the exercises are underway, apart from China’s? Hider-finder competition, it seems, has come to the Indian Ocean.

Does new engineering technology herald an age of Chinese maritime supremacy? Of course not. Carl von Clausewitz portrays martial strife as constant struggle between “wrestlers” striving to “throw” each other for strategic gain. That goes for acoustic one-upmanship as well.

One contender innovates; the other resolves to outdo it. It appears, consequently, that more equal undersea competition lies in store.

To prepare for it, U.S. Navy submariners must learn to think of PLA Navy subs not as prey to be devoured by American predators but as worthy foes, capable of some sub hunting of their own. The silent service must adjust to the new, old reality of peer competition beneath the waves.

The game’s afoot.

_This article originally appeared at _The National Interest_.

https://warisboring.com/chinese-subs-are-a-deadly-serious-threat/_

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Hassan Guy

No admiral will have a cooler name than Ma Weiming

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

This is the 'holy grail' for the future nuclear submarines according to some western experts.









Hassan Guy said:


> No admiral will have a cooler name than Ma Weiming



His surname Ma means 'Horse' in Chinese, many Chinese with this surname usually got some Muslim ancestry.

Maybe he got some Hui Muslim root traced back to his earlier ancestors.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Thəorətic Muslim

"The Chinese will state their last name first, followed by the given name (may be one or two syllables). For example, Liu Jianguo, in Chinese would be Mr. *Jianguo Liu *using the Western style. Never call someone by only his or her last name."

http://www.protocolprofessionals.com/articles_china_print.htm

Cool.


----------



## Han Patriot

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This is the 'holy grail' for the future nuclear submarines according to some western experts.
> 
> 
> View attachment 413558
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His surname Ma means 'Horse' in Chinese, many Chinese with this surname usually got some Muslim ancestry.
> 
> Maybe he got some Hui Muslim root traced back to his earlier ancestors.


Ma surname actually came from the name Mohammad, it was sinized to give early Muslims surnames.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Han Patriot said:


> Ma surname actually came from the name Mohammad, it was sinized to give early Muslims surnames.



He says that most of his students are now better than him.

If this is true, then it is going to be a sleepless night for some country.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## C130

https://warisboring.com/chinas-quest-for-super-quiet-submarines-is-still-just-a-dream/

*China’s Quest for Super-Quiet Submarines Is Still Just a Dream*
*Rim-driven pumpjets are stealthy but mechanically tricky*





WIB SEA July 7, 2017 Dave Majumdar

China24 submarines18
If China’s rim-driven pumpjet propulsion technology works, it would be a significant advance for the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s undersea force.

In a recent article that appeared in the _South China Morning Post_, Beijing claims to have developed such a silent propulsion system—which some have compared to the so-called caterpillar-drive in Tom Clancy’s _The Hunt for Red October_.

With vastly improved acoustical performance, a new generation of advanced Chinese nuclear attack submarines could add another dimension to Beijing’s anti-access/area denial capabilities.

Further, new Chinese ballistic missile submarines hiding inside their heavily defended “bastions”—like the Soviet boomer fleet before them—would be much more difficult to detect and eliminate, greatly enhancing Beijing’s strategic nuclear deterrence.

But that’s only if China can build an operationally relevant rim-driven pumpjet propulsor. American naval analysts are mostly convinced that the new Chinese silent propulsion system is a science project that may never make it to sea.

“If it is well-built, a rim-driven pump jet would be a quieter propulsion system than traditional propellers, and could be quieter than shaft-driven pump jets like those on some U.S. submarines,” said Bryan Clark, a retired U.S. Navy undersea warfare officer and analyst the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

“The question is whether the Chinese can build one with the fine machining necessary to achieve the degree of quieting possible. The article doesn’t address that. The basic technology is straightforward, but building a good one is hard. Manufacturing precision equipment like turbines has been a challenge for China’s shipbuilding industry.”


Retired U.S. Navy submariner Thomas Callender, a senior research fellow for defense programs at the Heritage Foundation and former director of capabilities at the Office of the Deputy Under Secretary of the Navy for Policy agreed with Clark’s assessment.

“I agree that if engineers can develop a shaft-less rim-driven electric motor pump-jet, it would reduce the noise signature of the host submarine since without large traditional shaft with multiple bearings along its length (shaft must be long enough to connect propulsion motor inside the engine room to screw or pump-jet at the stern) and only having one bearing per pump-jet, the noise associated with the shaft would be reduced,” Callender told _The National Interest _in an email.

*

Above and at top–the Chinese ‘Jin’-class ballistic missile submarine. Photos via Chinese Internet*
“In addition, since the propeller is not driven by a traditional steam propulsion turbine, but by an electric motor, there is no need for large reduction gear which reduces RPM of steam turbine (in 1000’s of RPM at higher speeds) to more efficient and quiet propeller speed (for submarine typically less than 200 rpm max).”

The improved quieting would also likely more than offset potential drawbacks such as a greater magnetic signature.

“A rim-driven pump jet would use an electric motor that is installed in the rim around the propulsor. Like any electric motor, it would generate a magnetic field. Because it’s outside the hull, it might be easier to detect with magnetic anomaly detection, but it could be designed to shield some of the field,” Clark said.

“It again comes down to how well they build the propulsion system. In any event, magnetic anomaly detection does not work at long ranges, and is not useful as a search capability. It is generally used to target a submarine once it has been located and tracked.”

While there are advantages to a rim-driven pumpjet, there also some serious potential drawbacks. One problem is that such motors may not be able to generate the horsepower to drive a massive nuclear submarine. “If China can put a well-built rim-driven pump jet on a submarine, the next question is how much thrust it provides,” Clark said.

“With submarine propulsion, one of the tradeoffs is quietness versus speed. Most changes to the propulsion architecture that reduce noise also reduce sprint speed. One of the concerns I have heard from engineers is whether a rim-driven pump jet can deliver the horsepower needed to reach high sprint speeds for torpedo evasion or repositioning.”

Callender noted that a single rim-driven pumpjet would probably be insufficient. The U.S. Navy’s forthcoming _Columbi_a-class ballistic missile submarine will incorporate a permanent magnet electric drive propulsion—eschewing the traditional steam-driven propulsion turbine. The new propulsion system will be much quieter, Callender said, but it will come at the price of being enormous.

“The electric drive motor with sufficient power to drive Columbia SSBN will be extremely large, partially contributing to its 43-foot hull diameter,” Callender said. “For example, similar sized Ohio Class SSBN produced 60,000 shaft horsepower. _Virginia_ SSN produces 40,000 shaft horsepower to power a submarine.”

Because of the sheer size and weight of the electrical motors, there are some size constraints that are inherent to a rim-mounted pumpjet.

“Bryan is correct and I agree that the most critical technical issue with the rimless electric motor pump-jet as the main propulsion for an SSN or SSBN is delivering sufficient power in size and weight limitations of a stern pump-jet,” Callender said.

“As you can imagine, a 40-foot diameter rimless pump-jet would not be practical (current propulsors are less than 20ft in diameter) from both a size and weight standpoint. Having a huge and heavy motor and pump-jet at the extreme stern would also make hull stability near impossible.”

As such, the Chinese would have to use multiple propulsors to design and build a practical submarine. “A more likely solution to incorporate a smaller rim-driven pump-jet (and therefore less power) would be to have multiple pump-jets located on the stabilizing stern fins (2 or more likely 4),” Callender said.

“But the issue of size and weight is still a huge engineering leap and would likely not incorporate more mature but heavy permanent magnet motors.”

Clark points out another potential problem even if the Chinese are able to solve all of the other technical issues. A rim-driven pumpjet would draw an enormous amount of electrical power and it is not clear that the Chinese can generate that kind of energy onboard their submarines.

“An electric propulsion system will be less efficient than traditional steam or diesel propulsion because the reactor or diesel generator is powering a generator that then powers a motor, compared to a diesel motor or steam turbine directly driving the shaft,” Clark said.

If the Chinese were to successfully develop and build a rim-driven pumpjet, there could be wider strategic implications.


*

A Chinese ‘Shang’-class nuclear-powered attack submarine. Photo via Chinese Internet*
“If they have developed a genuinely silent drive for SSNs, though, they could use those boats as a free-range element of their A2/AD network: SSKs could form a relatively static defensive cordon closer to shore while SSNs roamed ahead in an effort to detect, track, and target oncoming U.S. Pacific Fleet or Seventh Fleet task forces (and to notify A2/AD forces to the rear of U.S. forces’ whereabouts),” James Holmes, professor of strategy at the U.S. Naval War College, told _The National Interest_.

“SSNs thus could comprise a forward defense of China’s forward, layered maritime defense. And that leaves aside all of the more offensive uses for stealthy SSNs, such as forward operations in the Indian Ocean.”

The new propulsion system could also be a boon for the Chinese SSBN fleet, which like the Soviet boomer fleet, uses the so-called “Bastion” strategy.

“Propulsion machinery is at its quietest when running slowly, while SSBNs crawl along on patrol. SSBNs based at Sanya and fitted with newfangled propulsion plants could get underway, dive quickly, and dawdle out to their patrol grounds–keeping their acoustic signature, and thus chances of hostile detection, to a bare minimum. That would make the anti-submarine challenge for U.S. and allied forces daunting indeed. We would be hunting Chinese subs in China’s extended neighborhood, in proximity to an array of PLA A2/AD weaponry.”

However, there are plenty of indications that the Chinese rim-power pumpjet silent propulsion technology is overblown. In the _SCMP_ article, author Minne Chan quotes Collin Koh Swee Lean, a submarine expert from the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies at Singapore’s Nanyang Technological University as saying that: “In the long term, if the pump-jet propulsion is declared fully operational and tested successfully … future [Chinese] submarines would be equipped with pump-jet propulsion as a standard design feature.”

To Callender, that is an indication that the Chinese technology is still in the lab. “To me this means that the rimless pump-jet is still very much in the Science and Technology phase of development and not a near-term mature technology,” Callender said.

Ultimately, only time will tell if the new Chinese silent propulsion system proves to be genuine.

But some U.S. naval analysts believe the rim-driven pumpjet is simply Chinese propaganda. “I read this earlier this morning and concluded that the PLAN propaganda machine was busy on July 4th,” explained Bryan McGrath, managing director of the FerryBridge Group naval consultancy.

“Yes, something … if genuine. And there is no question in my mind that the undersea advantage we enjoy will come under increasing pressure from PLAN capabilities. But quieter that U.S. subs? No.”

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> https://warisboring.com/chinas-quest-for-super-quiet-submarines-is-still-just-a-dream/



Just like China creating the EMALS and AGG from scratch is also a pipe dream.

Another groundless sour grape article.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## C130

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Just like China creating the EMALS and AGG from scratch is also a pipe dream.
> 
> Another groundless sour grape article.



comparing this to EMALS. that's funny.


----------



## pzkilo

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This is the 'holy grail' for the future nuclear submarines according to some western experts.
> 
> 
> View attachment 413558
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His surname Ma means 'Horse' in Chinese, many Chinese with this surname usually got some Muslim ancestry.
> 
> Maybe he got some Hui Muslim root traced back to his earlier ancestors.


Surname Ma has existed long time ago before muhammad borns, I know u were joking, but this is not funny at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

pzkilo said:


> Surname Ma has existed long time ago before muhammad borns, I know u were joking, but this is not funny at all.



Many sinicized Muslims were given the surname Ma, but the original folks with the surname of Ma was definitely Han Chinese.

Ma Weiming was born in the city of Yangzhong, near the vicinity of Shanghai. He is typical Eastern Han Chinese. If he was born in the Northwest China, then the chance of his Muslim ancestry will get higher.

I was joking, just like Jack Ma looks like a typical dude from South China, I don't think he could get any Hui Muslim ancestry.



C130 said:


> comparing this to EMALS. that's funny.



The Type 095/096 are using it.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## pzkilo

Han Patriot said:


> Ma surname actually came from the name Mohammad, it was sinized to give early Muslims surnames.


Accurately, “Some” of surname Ma came from the name Mohammad.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Han Patriot

pzkilo said:


> Accurately, “Some” of surname Ma came from the name Mohammad.


Yes, that would be more accurate since not all Ma's are Muslim in origin.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

Hey you guys, America didn't give permission to China to develop advanced naval technology. Tell Admiral Ma to shut down his projects.


> "But quieter that U.S. subs? No.”


Yes.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Hey you guys, America didn't give permission to China to develop advanced naval technology. Tell Admiral Ma to shut down his projects.
> 
> Yes.



The Type 095/096 are already using this technology, since the Columbia class will start its construction after 2020, that's why Admiral Ma is confident to claim his technology being a decade ahead that of the US.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

C130 said:


> comparing this to EMALS. that's funny.


Nowhere near as funny as your country's naval engineers' total inability to build a simple linear induction motor. Perhaps you ought to send them all to remedial math classes.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Gufi

C130 said:


> “Yes, something … if genuine. And there is no question in my mind that the undersea advantage we enjoy will come under increasing pressure from PLAN capabilities. But quieter that U.S. subs? No.”


@Penguin an analysis on both articles from your side. post number 1 and 7


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 095/096 are already using this technology, since the Columbia class will start its construction after 2020, that's why Admiral Ma is confident to claim his technology a decade ahead that of the US.


What does China think it's doing applying this technology before America -- without America's permission, no less! Doesn't it know that it's a law of the Universe that America #1? Who does China think it is!?

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

ZeEa5KPul said:


> What does China think it's doing applying this technology before America -- without America's permission, no less! Doesn't it know that it's a law of the Universe that America #1? Who does China think it is!?



His semi-submerged arsenal ship is even more jaw-dropping, with the 1000+ km railgun and a real power laser that can easily fry a large number of incoming ICBMs.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> His semi-submerged arsenal ship is even more jaw-dropping, with the 1000+ km railgun and a real power laser that can easily fry a large number of incoming ICBMs.


It's bound to fail. America does everything first: America had the first jet fighter and the first ballistic missile. It was the first to send a man into space. Nothing can be done without America doing it first.

America #1.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## gambit

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> His semi-submerged arsenal ship is even more jaw-dropping, with the 1000+ km railgun and a real power laser that can easily fry a large number of incoming ICBMs.


When it is on paper, anything *WILL BE* draw dropping. Or is it bird droppings...


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

gambit said:


> When it is on paper, anything *WILL BE* draw dropping. Or is it bird droppings...



Why we have to make you believe it is true?

The Columbia class is scheduled to be built in the 2020s, but during the contemporary period, for the US to master the shaftless rim-driven pump-jet technology is still questionable.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## eldamar

pzkilo said:


> Surname Ma has existed long time ago before muhammad borns, I know u were joking, but this is not funny at all.



*Both him and you are correct*, because while the surname 'Ma' *indeed *long existed for more than a millenium before muhammad was even born, copious numbers of muslims in China, usually those not of Han/Hui ancestry- voluntarily adopted the very same surname *en masse* as it was a close phonological translation of 'muhammad' in Chinese.

It's the same context for the surname 'Li'

The Tang emperor bestowed the imperial surname on anybody he liked such as officials, generals or even commoners- and those same people would in turn also bestowed the same surname to anybody they like as the surname was considered to be a highly prestigious one during the Tang dynasty. Im a Li myself, but instead of naturally being born of 1 by virtue of lineage associated with the surname 'Li', my ancestors could have been bestowed with or even voluntarily adopted it more than a millennium ago. <===Chinese members here would easily understand the logic here.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## gambit

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Why we have to make you believe it is true?


You can take that article any way you like. The weasel word here is 'could'. It is open to interpretation.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

gambit said:


> You can take that article any way you like. The weasel word here is 'could'. It is open to interpretation.



Compared to China's father of the EMALS/AAG and DC integrated electrical systems, who is the speaking with the weasel word?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## gambit

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Compared to China's father of the EMALS/AAG and DC integrated electrical systems, who is the speaking with the weasel word?


You think that just because you use technical buzzwords and acronyms that makes you knowledgeable ? China's next carriers planned to use the ramp. But even if China somehow make the EMALS operational before the US, show US how would that make China's carriers more combat capable.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

gambit said:


> You think that just because you use technical buzzwords and acronyms that makes you knowledgeable ? China's next carriers planned to use the ramp. But even if China somehow make the EMALS operational before the US, show US how would that make China's carriers more combat capable.



The CV-17 still uses the ski-jump, but China is planning a CV-18 with the EMALS and AAG.

And the CV-17 and CV-18 are not even built in the same shipyard.

The CV-18 was supposed to start its construction in the Fall 2015, but it got delayed due the replacement of the EMALS to the original steam catapult, and the replacement of the AAG to the original traditional arresting landing gear.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## gambit

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The CV-17 still uses the ski-jump, but China is planning a CV-18 with the EMALS and AAG.
> 
> And the CV-17 and CV-18 are not even built in the same shipyard.
> 
> The CV-18 was supposed to start its construction in the Fall 2015, but it got delayed due the replacement of the EMALS to the original steam catapult, and the replacement of the AAG to the original traditional arresting landing gear.


The American carriers with their steam catapults would outfly and outgun China's carriers with their EMALS. You do not want to test that argument, son. It would go very badly for PLAN morale.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

gambit said:


> The American carriers with their steam catapults would outfly and outgun China's carriers with their EMALS. You do not want to test that argument, son. It would go very badly for PLAN morale.



lol, that's why Trump wants to kill the EMALS so badly.

Hopefully, the USN can still stick with their steam catapult for another 3-5 decades.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Penguin

Gufi said:


> @Penguin an analysis on both articles from your side. post number 1 and 7


#7 article is much more balanced.

"Chinese engineers are reported to be planning a rim-driven thruster specifically being developed _as an auxiliary propulsion unit_ for the PLAN’s new Type 095 SSNs now under development."
"Rim-driven thrusters are relatively new, having been introduced only in 2010 by the German firm Voith GmbH and the Dutch firm Van der Velden Marine Systems B.V. They’re intended for use as maneuvering units and not as main propulsion units."
https://worldofweapon.wordpress.com...ll-make-its-new-nuclear-attack-subs-the-best/

It is easy to claim to be ahead. However, it is exceedingly difficult to show what USN is working on for future SSN/SSBN and how far along they are (they certainly aren't going to advertise!)

Researchers have identified a quieter advanced propulsion system and the ability to control multiple unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) at once as key SSN(X) components.
https://news.usni.org/2016/03/09/pe...thy-electric-drive-controls-for-multiple-uuvs

New propulsion technology for the USNs future Virginia class boars, could be moving beyond the use of a rotating mechanical device to push the boat through the water, and could come in the form a _biomimetic _propulsion system that would eliminate noise-generating moving parts like the drive shaft and the spinning blades of the propulsor.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...submarine-super-stealthy-now-underwater-16978

urh... what? BIOMIMETICS?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomimetics

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Devil Soul

*Did China Just Create the "Holy Grail" Of Submarine Technologies?*

Dave Majumdar



TweetShareShare



The Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) claims to have developed new electrically-powered pump-jet propulsor that would theoretically be much quieter than any current generation Western submarine propulsion system.

Unlike a conventional propulsor design—which is turned by a mechanical drive shaft—China’s rim-driven system is powered by an electrical motor embedded in the propulsor’s shroud.

“A rim-driven pump-jet has a ring-shaped electrical motor inside the pump-jet shroud, which turns the vane rotor inside the pump-jet cavity to create thrust,” asSouth China Morning Post reporter Minnie Chan described the system.

Theoretically, without a drive-shaft, a submarine should be much quieter, and thus much more difficult to detect. Additionally, the Chinese are claiming that the new propulsor could reduce cavitation, which would also significantly help to improve a submarine’s acoustical signature performance.

“This is one of our work team’s first world-leading projects, which has been used on [China’s] next-generation nuclear submarines,” PLAN Rear Admiral Ma Weiming told China Central Television in May according to SCMP.


“[Our technology] is now way ahead of the United States, which has also been developing similar technology.”

Ma told the Chinese television channel that the new rim-driven pump-jet will be fitted onto the PLAN’s next-generation nuclear submarines. Those vessels might include versions of the nuclear-powered Type 095 attack submarines and the Type 096 ballistic missile submarines. However, PLAN has not confirmed which of its new submarines might receive the new propulsor technology.

The U.S. Navy uses pump-jet propulsor technology onboard its Improved Los Angeles, Seawolf and Virginia-class attack submarines. The U.S. Navy is also planning to use a pumpjet propulsor onboard its forthcoming Columbia-classnuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines. The Columbia-class will use integrated electrical propulsion with a permanent-magnet motor turning the submarine’s drive shaft.

Developing a shaftless propulsion system is something akin to the holy grail of submarine propulsion. U.S. naval experts are skeptical of the Chinese claims.

“I read this earlier this morning and concluded that the PLAN propaganda machine was busy on July 4th,” Bryan McGrath, managing director of the FerryBridge Group naval consultancy, told me.

But while McGrath is skeptical, if the Chinese claims prove to be true, it could be something significant.

“Yes, something...if genuine,” McGrath said.

“And there is no question in my mind that the undersea advantage we enjoy will come under increasing pressure from PLAN capabilities. But quieter that U.S. subs? No.”

Thus, if the Chinese have managed to successfully develop a rim-driven pumpjet propulsor that works in a real world operational setting, it would be a significant development. It would mean that the PLAN is making genuine progress in developing novel submarine technologies and that it is starting to catch up. But there is more to a submarine’s acoustical stealth than just the propulsion system, and it will take time and a lot of trial and error before the PLAN can match or exceed American capabilities in the undersea domain.

_Dave Majumdar is the defense editor of The National Interest. You can follow him on Twitter _@DaveMajumdar_._
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...e-the-holy-grail-submarine-technologies-21436

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

China's own "Columbia class SSBN" is ready.

The Type 096 will soon patrol with 16 JL-3 SLBMs.

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/tvv1Vzs0QNzRdXM3U3D9UQ

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China's own "Columbia class SSBN" is ready.
> 
> The Type 096 will soon patrol with 16 JL-3 SLBMs.
> 
> http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/tvv1Vzs0QNzRdXM3U3D9UQ




Intersting but to admit between "will be launched" and "will soon patrol" lays most likely a difference of at least three years ! So why are some of You so much overenthusiastic which in return only leads to these replies You don't like so much aka that some simply don't take such posts seriously?


----------



## Akasa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China's own "Columbia class SSBN" is ready.
> 
> The Type 096 will soon patrol with 16 JL-3 SLBMs.
> 
> http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/tvv1Vzs0QNzRdXM3U3D9UQ



It hasn't even begun construction yet, as the submarine hall is not fully completed. There is no way it could be ready by this time.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> Intersting but to admit between "will be launched" and "will soon patrol" lays most likely a difference of at least three years ! So why are some of You so much overenthusiastic which in return only leads to these replies You don't like so much aka that some simply don't take such posts seriously?



The JL-3 SLBM is already around the corner, and China always finished the boat before the missile.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Four Type 094 SSBNs being simultaneously spotted in the dock.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## samsara

China's quantum submarine detector could seal South China Sea | New Scientist

22 August 2017
By *David Hambling*

On 21 June, the Chinese Academy of Sciences hailed a breakthrough – a major upgrade to a kind of quantum device that measures magnetic fields. The announcement vanished after a journalist pointed out the invention’s potential military implications: it could help China lock down the South China Sea.

“I was surprised by the removal,” says Stephen Chen of the _South China Morning Post_, who raised the issue. “I have been covering Chinese science for many years, and it is rare.”

Magnetometers have been used to detect submarines since the second world war. They are able to do this because they can measure an anomaly in Earth’s magnetic field – like one caused by a massive hunk of metal.

But today’s devices can only detect a submarine at fairly short range, so tend to be used to home in on the location once the sub has already been spotted on sonar.

*Superconducting fix*
You could widen their range if you had a magnetometer based on a superconducting quantum interference device, or SQUID. Superconducting magnetometers are exquisitely sensitive, but their promise has been limited to the lab. Out in the real world, they are quickly overwhelmed by background noise as minuscule as changes in Earth’s magnetic field caused by distant solar storms.

Given that level of sensitivity, you can forget about mounting such a sensor on an airplane, for example. The US Navy gave up work on superconducting magnetometers to pursue less sensitive but more mature technologies.

The new magnetometer, built by Xiaoming Xie and colleagues at the Shanghai Institute of Microsystem and Information Technology, uses not one SQUID but an array of them. The idea is that by comparing their readings, researchers can cancel out some of the extra artefacts generated by motion. This “would be relevant to an anti-submarine warfare device”, says David Caplin at Imperial College London, who works on magnetic sensors.

Although the announcement concerning Xie’s work has been removed, several of the previous papers culminating in this breakthrough are still available.

The achievement points to an airborne device that can detect submarines from several kilometres away rather than just a few hundred metres. This would be catastrophic for NATO submarines, which have been honed to run ever more quietly, using clever technology that prevents them from being heard or detected on sonar. Their magnetic signature is much harder to eliminate.

*Noise problem*
Could China soon have the most sensitive submarine detector in the world? No Western navies are known to have SQUID detectors.

Researchers estimate that a SQUID magnetometer of this type could detect a sub from 6 kilometres away, and Caplin says that with better noise suppression the range could be much greater.

Not everyone is convinced the Chinese magnetometer is ready for deployment. Cathy Foley at CSIRO, the Australian government research agency, says there are several difficulties with turning a SQUID into a sub-hunter – for example dealing with background magnetic noise. Nobody has yet solved all of these problems, although she says the rate of Chinese progress means they may well be first to succeed.

SQUIDs are only one of the ways that China has been upgrading its anti-submarine capability over the last few years. The “Underwater Great Wall”, a string of submerged sensors, buoys and drone submarines, is thought to be close to completion. The project will help China extend its offshore surveillance zone.

Beijing has long wanted to change the rules of engagement in its waters. Earlier this year it drafted new lawsrequiring any foreign submarine to get approval before entering Chinese waters, and once there, to stay surfaced and display its national flag. “Can the Chinese make these systems work reliably while in motion in the air or underwater? We’ll be watching their progress closely,” says Foley.

_A shorter version of this article was published in New Scientist magazine on 26 August 2017_

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Figaro

Can anyone please tell me the noise (decibel) level on the next gen 09V sub... is it comparable to the seawolf or Virginia?


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> Can anyone please tell me the noise (decibel) level on the next gen 09V sub... is it comparable to the seawolf or Virginia?


The Type 09-V has all the bells and whistles found on modern American submarines: IEPS and turbo-electric propulsion, passive reactor cooling, anechoic tiling, etc. China has also gained a lot of experience in precision manufacturing.

The noise level should be comparable to submarines like the _Virginia_.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Galactic Penguin SST

*Quantum communication test successful, good news for the Navy*

August 29, 2017

Chinese scientists successfully tested quantum communication under the surface of the sea, marking a global breakthrough in such technology.

The experiment was conducted by Jin Xianmin, and his team from Shanghai Jiao Tong University. In their experiment, the team was able to conduct communication secured by quantum mechanics between two underwater points several hundred meters apart, Jin told reporters on Monday, adding that the team was also able to securely communicate with satellites and aircraft from a point several meters under the sea.

Quantum communication is ultra-secure as a quantum photon can neither be separated nor duplicated. Accordingly, it is impossible to wiretap, intercept or crack information it transmits.

Once operationalized, such technology is expected to come in handy in the field of military, finance, and public information safety, according to Jin.

To carry out the experiment, the team collected samples of saltwater from six sites in the Yellow Sea, which they placed in containers, to see whether variations in the water affect their results, Jin said.

A beam of light was then shot through a crystal, which split it into pairs of photons, which are connected at the sub-atomic or quantum level.

This means that the performance of the pair of particles is now linked, theoretically over any distance, allowing data to be transmitted between the two.

Jin said that although the floating matter and salt in the sea can result in the loss of photons, the research team found a window which can enable the photons to travel and hence preserve enough photons to securely communicate.

"Such windows can be spotted by commercial photon detectors," said Jin.

He noted that if the seawater, which covers more than 70 percent of the Earth, cannot be covered, the global quantum communication will remain incomplete.

"The quantum communication is highly secured and is free from interruptions, so solving the problem of underwater quantum communication is a good news for the Navy," Li Jie, a Beijing-based naval expert, told reporters on Monday.

However, according to Jin, the experiment is just the first step toward underwater quantum communication, and there is still a long way to go before a quantum communication network can be built incorporating both the sea and sky.

China has made several breakthroughs in the field of quantum communication in recent years.

Before Jin, a team from the University of Science and Technology of China led by Pan Jianwei, an academician with the Chinese Academy of Sciences, announced in July that they overcame the sunlight noise and demonstrated free-space quantum key distribution over 53 kilometers during the day.

China is striving to set up the first-ever global quantum communication network by around 2030, through linking a satellite constellation consisting of dozens of quantum satellites and ground-based quantum communication networks, according to Xinhua News Agency.

http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0829/c90000-9261766.html

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## samsara

Galactic Penguin SST said:


> *Quantum communication test successful, good news for the Navy*
> 
> August 29, 2017
> 
> Chinese scientists successfully tested quantum communication under the surface of the sea, marking a global breakthrough in such technology.
> 
> The experiment was conducted by Jin Xianmin, and his team from Shanghai Jiao Tong University. In their experiment, the team was able to conduct communication secured by quantum mechanics between two underwater points several hundred meters apart, Jin told reporters on Monday, adding that the team was also able to securely communicate with satellites and aircraft from a point several meters under the sea.
> 
> Quantum communication is ultra-secure as a quantum photon can neither be separated nor duplicated. Accordingly, it is impossible to wiretap, intercept or crack information it transmits.
> 
> Once operationalized, such technology is expected to come in handy in the field of military, finance, and public information safety, according to Jin.
> 
> To carry out the experiment, the team collected samples of saltwater from six sites in the Yellow Sea, which they placed in containers, to see whether variations in the water affect their results, Jin said.
> 
> A beam of light was then shot through a crystal, which split it into pairs of photons, which are connected at the sub-atomic or quantum level.
> 
> This means that the performance of the pair of particles is now linked, theoretically over any distance, allowing data to be transmitted between the two.
> 
> Jin said that although the floating matter and salt in the sea can result in the loss of photons, the research team found a window which can enable the photons to travel and hence preserve enough photons to securely communicate.
> 
> "Such windows can be spotted by commercial photon detectors," said Jin.
> 
> He noted that if the seawater, which covers more than 70 percent of the Earth, cannot be covered, the global quantum communication will remain incomplete.
> 
> "The quantum communication is highly secured and is free from interruptions, so solving the problem of underwater quantum communication is a good news for the Navy," Li Jie, a Beijing-based naval expert, told reporters on Monday.
> 
> However, according to Jin, the experiment is just the first step toward underwater quantum communication, and there is still a long way to go before a quantum communication network can be built incorporating both the sea and sky.
> 
> China has made several breakthroughs in the field of quantum communication in recent years.
> 
> Before Jin, a team from the University of Science and Technology of China led by Pan Jianwei, an academician with the Chinese Academy of Sciences, announced in July that they overcame the sunlight noise and demonstrated free-space quantum key distribution over 53 kilometers during the day.
> 
> China is striving to set up the first-ever global quantum communication network by around 2030, through linking a satellite constellation consisting of dozens of quantum satellites and ground-based quantum communication networks, according to Xinhua News Agency.
> 
> http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0829/c90000-9261766.html


GOOD NEWS!!

Btw, about following standard line: _"However, according to Jin, the experiment is just the first step toward underwater quantum communication, and *there is still a long way to go* before a quantum communication network can be built incorporating both the sea and sky."
_
Do you think the concerned party will make an announcement at duly time one day if the SEA quantum communication has been in operation linking the subs with the land nodes or subs with other subs etc?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Galactic Penguin SST

samsara said:


> GOOD NEWS!!
> 
> Btw, about following standard line: _"However, according to Jin, the experiment is just the first step toward underwater quantum communication, and *there is still a long way to go* before a quantum communication network can be built incorporating both the sea and sky."
> _
> Do you think the concerned party will make an announcement at duly time one day if the SEA quantum communication has been in operation linking the subs with the land nodes or subs with other subs etc?



Undersea to undersea quantum communication can only be limited to several hundreds of meters due to the absorption of the water molecules, but undersea to space then back to undersea will of course allow distance of several thousands of kilometers, as the air molecule interact less with the single entangled photons.

Space to undersea communications experiments will require several experimental satellites to be launched before they could be conducted. First at short distance and then at ever greater distance. Just like the conventional satellite-to-submarine communications using laser data link.

Once the technology is declared mature enough, China will have to place into LEO (and GEO?) a small fleet of quantum communications satellites before it could beam entangled photons from the mainland to the SSNs operating in the Pacific Ocean or Indian Ocean, and this will take of course several years. Think of the Yaogan NOSS network. And for the public announcement part, China is already giving a coverage of its developments basically on a regular basis. The official stated date is 2030.

For the illustration, just replace the ISS with a quantum comsat, the two cupolas with two submerged submarines or a land based communication station and a submarine.







Spoiler



http://en.people.cn/NMediaFile/2017/0829/FOREIGN201708291532000584425656245.jpg
http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0829/c90000-9261766.html


▲ Schematics of quantum comsat data link 







Spoiler



http://en.people.cn/NMediaFile/2017/0829/FOREIGN201708291530000480418711026.jpg
http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0829/c90000-9261766.html


▲ UUV used in the undewater to undewater quantum communication 

Note: from the published picture, it seems that the use of UUVs could even extend the operational range of the underwater to underwater link!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## grey boy 2

S-26T

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## grey boy 2

I've lost count of how many new subs has been built or under construction in these few years, still recalled the 1st indigenous "AIP" submarine excitement, it was good, however nowadays "AIP" has became a standard feature with all non nuclear new subs....

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> I've lost count of how many new subs has been built or under construction in these few years, still recalled the 1st indigenous "AIP" submarine excitement, it was good, however nowadays "AIP" has became a standard feature with all non nuclear new subs....


I really want to see photos of the 095 though ... nuclear subs are where the money is really at

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## grey boy 2

Another one, another day

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> Another one, another day


039B? Very nice and clean photo btw

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

Now entering September wonder how far is the Huludao factory from churning out the latest subs...  who knows that the fest may even have been starting...

But Popular Mechanics said to have no worry, the Chinese latest subs will still be 30 years lagging behind from the American best...

_The Type 095 is expected to be quieter that the second tranche of Los Angeles-class attack submarines that were built in the late 1980s, and Russian Victor III or Akula-class submarines built in the early 1980s.

In other words, China is approximately 30 years behind the United States in submarine quieting technology. Chinese submarines in the 1980s were about as quiet as American submarines from the 1950s, while modern American submarines such as the Seawolf or Virginia-class boats are so quiet they're described as "quieter at 25 knots than the Los Angeles class at pierside." This is not a field where China has been able to close the gap._​
Just imagine the expression or satisfaction of the self-generated pleasure: *"I already built the same things as your newest/best around 30 years ago!" *  ha ha ha

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Figaro

samsara said:


> Now entering September wonder how far is the Huludao factory from churning out the latest subs...  who knows that the fest may even have been starting...
> 
> But Popular Mechanics said to have no worry, the Chinese latest subs will still be 30 years lagging behind from the American best...
> 
> _The Type 095 is expected to be quieter that the second tranche of Los Angeles-class attack submarines that were built in the late 1980s, and Russian Victor III or Akula-class submarines built in the early 1980s.
> 
> In other words, China is approximately 30 years behind the United States in submarine quieting technology. Chinese submarines in the 1980s were about as quiet as American submarines from the 1950s, while modern American submarines such as the Seawolf or Virginia-class boats are so quiet they're described as "quieter at 25 knots than the Los Angeles class at pierside." This is not a field where China has been able to close the gap._​
> Just imagine the expression or satisfaction of the self-generated pleasure: *"I already built the same things as your newest/best around 30 years ago!" *  ha ha ha


Unfortunately, Kyle Mizokami is not a credible source at all. His works of garbage are second only to Alex Lockie of Business insider

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Ironborn

Kyle Mizokami and Dave Majumdar both puts out crap tons of click-bait articles on some online publications everyday.
Men got to eat somehow.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## azesus

Ironborn said:


> Kyle Mizokami and Dave Majumdar both puts out crap tons of click-bait articles on some online publications everyday.
> Men got to eat somehow.



I envy them Indian and Japanese making easy money just by talking smack about China, I wish someone would pay me just by talking trash. I bagging on people all the them but never gets paid

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## samsara

The National Interest just fired an article to solicit some info in July, IMO.

They seem to be in huge desperado to get some info or some confirmation by putting a bait article as such "Why Everyone Is Wrong About China's Next-Gen Submarines | The National Interest"  LOL

Just read it  here if you're interested...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cirr

samsara said:


> The National Interest just fired an article to solicit some info in July, IMO.
> 
> They seem to be in huge desperado to get some info or some confirmation by putting a bait article as such "Why Everyone Is Wrong About China's Next-Gen Submarines | The National Interest"  LOL
> 
> Just read it  here if you're interested...





央视节目《对话》又放出大料，中船重工常规潜艇总师吴崇建说：重工的潜艇的静音性能已经超过了俄罗斯的基洛级潜艇。接下来将利用量子导航、量子通信、人工智能增加潜艇性能，中国的新技术应用将颠覆世界对潜艇的认知。

在节目中，总师吴崇建首次证实中国潜艇的强大隐身性能，他说：俄罗斯的基洛级很多同志都知道，被誉为大洋黑洞，我们现在的潜艇，完全可以和它媲美，而且毫不夸张的说，我们现在已经超越它了。

吴崇建总师所说的潜艇应为我国039B型潜艇，此前分析认为，039B型潜艇的静音性能同基洛级潜艇相当，这次总师出面直接终结了之前的猜测，039B型潜艇不是同基洛级潜艇相当，而是毫无疑义的超越。要知道，潜艇每降低6分贝的噪音，对方装备的探测距离就会降低一半。

吴总师说：我们的潜艇已经走在了世界的前列，在整个维护国家海洋权益的过程当中，是不断扮演杀手锏的武器。

而针对潜艇对于我国国防的作用，吴总师说：假如中国没有常规潜艇怎么办？我们的国土安全将无法得到保障，常规潜艇因此也被誉为“移动的水下长城”，这个能力能够保护我们的海上丝绸之路，同时常规潜艇结合国家岛礁建设，可以将我们沿海防御纵深向前推进几百海里，甚至几千海里。

中国039B潜艇是目前世界上最先进的潜艇之一，节目中，中国常规潜艇总设计师吴崇建透露：我国潜艇建设一直对标国际最先进的第四代潜艇，已经由过去的跟跑达到了现在的并跑，在局部领域甚至已经达到了领跑的地位！

中国下一代潜艇会是什么样？从吴总师话中我们可以确定，中国目前领跑的量子科技将应用到中国最新潜艇上，吴总师说：我们接下来的新潜艇将应用量子导航技术，量子通信技术，以及智能无人机技术，我们将迎来第三次颠覆。*这次，我们站在世界之巅(This time we will stand on the top of the world!)*。

央视对话：http://tv.cctv.com/2017/09/11/VIDEpHhTBMX52RAREAJMRQo4170911.shtml

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## 52051

Chief submarine designer of China Ship building corp. group told the CCTV news reporter in a recent TV interview that China's new submarines are all super-quiet and in the near future the next gen Chinese conventional and nuclear submarine will equiped with revoluationary new tech like:* Quantum commuication, Quantum guidance* as well as many advanced *AI* techs to futher improve their combat capabilities.

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2017-09-16/doc-ifykywuc4571651.shtml

Judging by this trend the first star destroyer of human race will mostly likely to be develope and deployed in China

Reactions: Like Like:
14


----------



## grey boy 2

Ultimate upgraded 035B specialized in "sea mines warfare" 塔修了型的035B大改

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## jkroo

还有谁？ 

太空：天舟一号在轨加注燃料

天空：H20+J20等离子？WS15?预警机固态贴片有源相控阵雷达？

海面：055双波段，激光？轨道炮？

海底：新潜（量子导航通信、水下智能无人机？超空泡？）、深潜器？

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation ( CSIC ) has delivered a "New Type" of nuclear submarine" to PLAN, possibly be "095"?

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

grey boy 2 said:


> China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation ( CSIC ) has delivered a "New nuclear submarine" to PLAN, possibly be "095"?



It is the lead ship of a new class nuclear submarine, so it is likely the Type 095.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation ( CSIC ) has delivered a "New nuclear submarine" to PLAN, possibly be "095"?



"New" as in new submarine rather than class?


----------



## atan651

It said new type of nuclear sub.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation ( CSIC ) has delivered a "New Type" of nuclear submarine" to PLAN, possibly be "095"?


Yes. I've heard that 095 secretly began construction too a while back ... not the least surprising. I hope the 095 can lower its noise level down to the SeaWolf/Virginia class.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## rcrmj

here are *few sweets* for you guys````

China conventional AIP subs are: 

the *quietest* in the world; 

its AIP propulsion and power management system is unique, it allows the sub can operate the longest time and with highest speed under water in the world; (*keep going with 10+ knots underwater for many hours, 5+ knots for weeks before emerging to recharge!!!!*) 

they have introduced *new of communication system* (I donno the details ), which is the safest in the world;

new weapons

``````````
however, we are still quite behind (based on my collected info) U.S in terms of nuclear-subs```lets wait for 095 and 096

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## JSCh

* PLA Navy gets new nuclear submarine *
By Yang Sheng and Qu Qiuyan Source:Global Times Published: 2017/9/20 23:18:39

* Can provide ‘a second strike’ to a country in nuclear warfare: expert *

A new nuclear submarine has been turned over to the People's Liberation Army Navy, one of the largest State-owned naval shipbuilding enterprises revealed on Tuesday, but experts believe that this submarine is not the most advanced Type 096, which is China's next generation strategic nuclear submarine.

China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC), which also manufactures China's aircraft carrier, posted the information on its WeChat account Tuesday in an article reviewing its achievements since the 18th National Congress of the Communist Party of China (CPC) in 2012.

"The past five years since the 18th National Congress of the CPC has been an extraordinary period for the CSIC, with the handover of China's first aircraft carrier Liaoning to the PLA Navy, the launch of the first homegrown aircraft carrier, the completion of the new nuclear submarine and the deep-sea-exploration submersible Jiaolong…"the article said.

However, the article did not reveal the submarine's name and type. But some Net users and military enthusiasts speculated the submarine is Type 096, China's most advanced nuclear submarine, and the successor of the current Type 094, which first appeared on China Central Television in 2013. 

The submarine the CSIC mentioned could be Type 094 or Type 093, but not the next generation nuclear-powered ballistic submarine Type 096, since Type 096 is too advanced and not to be completed soon, Song Zhongping, a military expert who served in the PLA Rocket Force, told the Global Times. 

The strategic nuclear submarine, also called a nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, is capable of launching nuclear warheads from the sea, and can provide "a second strike" to a country in nuclear warfare.

That means when the enemy has completely destroyed land-based launch positions, the submarines take over.

The 2017 Annual Report to the US Congress on China's military power by the US Defense Department claims that China's next-generation nuclear submarine, Type 096, will likely begin construction in the early 2020s, and will reportedly be armed with the JL-3, a submarine-based ballistic missile.

"Pentagon's prediction about Type 096 could be correct to some extent, but the submarine could be completed ahead of schedule. The submarine is a key weapon to the country's nuclear warfare capability. Only the US and Russia have the real 'nuclear triad' (consisting of ballistic missiles, strategic nuclear submarines and strategic bombers), but sooner or later, China will have it as well," said Li Jie, a Beijing-based naval expert.

The US report also predicts that in the next decade, China will probably develop a new variant of the SHANG class (NATO code) Type 093B, which would not only improve the PLA's anti-surface warfare capability but also provide it with a more clandestine land-attack option.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> here are *few sweets* for you guys````
> 
> China conventional AIP subs are:
> 
> the *quietest* in the world;
> 
> its AIP propulsion and power management system is unique, it allows the sub can operate the longest time and with highest speed under water in the world; (*keep going with 10+ knots underwater for many hours, 5+ knots for weeks before emerging to recharge!!!!*)
> 
> they have introduced *new of communication system* (I donno the details ), which is the safest in the world;
> 
> new weapons
> 
> ``````````
> however, we are still quite behind (based on my collected info) U.S in terms of nuclear-subs```lets wait for 095 and 096



I'm very much doubtful that the Chinese have reached the level of the U-212 in terms of submarine acoustic stealth. I'd be very surprised if the latest 039B1 could reach _Soryu_-levels of acoustic performance, to say the least.


----------



## Figaro

JSCh said:


> * PLA Navy gets new nuclear submarine *
> By Yang Sheng and Qu Qiuyan Source:Global Times Published: 2017/9/20 23:18:39
> 
> * Can provide ‘a second strike’ to a country in nuclear warfare: expert *
> 
> A new nuclear submarine has been turned over to the People's Liberation Army Navy, one of the largest State-owned naval shipbuilding enterprises revealed on Tuesday, but experts believe that this submarine is not the most advanced Type 096, which is China's next generation strategic nuclear submarine.
> 
> China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC), which also manufactures China's aircraft carrier, posted the information on its WeChat account Tuesday in an article reviewing its achievements since the 18th National Congress of the Communist Party of China (CPC) in 2012.
> 
> "The past five years since the 18th National Congress of the CPC has been an extraordinary period for the CSIC, with the handover of China's first aircraft carrier Liaoning to the PLA Navy, the launch of the first homegrown aircraft carrier, the completion of the new nuclear submarine and the deep-sea-exploration submersible Jiaolong…"the article said.
> 
> However, the article did not reveal the submarine's name and type. But some Net users and military enthusiasts speculated the submarine is Type 096, China's most advanced nuclear submarine, and the successor of the current Type 094, which first appeared on China Central Television in 2013.
> 
> The submarine the CSIC mentioned could be Type 094 or Type 093, but not the next generation nuclear-powered ballistic submarine Type 096, since Type 096 is too advanced and not to be completed soon, Song Zhongping, a military expert who served in the PLA Rocket Force, told the Global Times.
> 
> The strategic nuclear submarine, also called a nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, is capable of launching nuclear warheads from the sea, and can provide "a second strike" to a country in nuclear warfare.
> 
> That means when the enemy has completely destroyed land-based launch positions, the submarines take over.
> 
> The 2017 Annual Report to the US Congress on China's military power by the US Defense Department claims that China's next-generation nuclear submarine, Type 096, will likely begin construction in the early 2020s, and will reportedly be armed with the JL-3, a submarine-based ballistic missile.
> 
> "Pentagon's prediction about Type 096 could be correct to some extent, but the submarine could be completed ahead of schedule. The submarine is a key weapon to the country's nuclear warfare capability. Only the US and Russia have the real 'nuclear triad' (consisting of ballistic missiles, strategic nuclear submarines and strategic bombers), but sooner or later, China will have it as well," said Li Jie, a Beijing-based naval expert.
> 
> The US report also predicts that in the next decade, China will probably develop a new variant of the SHANG class (NATO code) Type 093B, which would not only improve the PLA's anti-surface warfare capability but also provide it with a more clandestine land-attack option.


It’s the 095

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

Figaro said:


> It’s the 095



The facility for 095 & 096 construction halls has not even been completed as of late 2016. There is *zero* possibility that the 095 could've been launched in less than a year of being in construction.

But again, I'm not ruling out the possibility that the lead units could've been built in the old halls. Who knows?


----------



## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> The facility for 095 & 096 construction halls has not even been completed as of late 2016. There is *zero* possibility that the 095 could've been launched in less than a year of being in construction.
> 
> But again, I'm not ruling out the possibility that the lead units could've been built in the old halls. Who knows?


I heard that construction secretly began some time ago ... presumably in the smaller and older halls. So the 095 will not be produced on masse yet


----------



## Akasa

Figaro said:


> I heard that construction secretly began some time ago ... presumably in the smaller and older halls. So the 095 will not be produced on masse yet



Are you sure those rumors were referring to the 09V rather than the 09IIIB? Because the latter were fairly recent additions to the PLAN and could've been mistaken for a next-generation SSN.


----------



## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> Are you sure those rumors were referring to the 09V rather than the 09IIIB? Because the latter were fairly recent additions to the PLAN and could've been mistaken for a next-generation SSN.


I’m thought the 093B was only a stop-gap measure until the 095. To be fair, I’ve seen very few photos and heard little about the 093B so this new sub could indeed be that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

Figaro said:


> I’m thought the 093B was only a stop-gap measure until the 095. To be fair, I’ve seen very few photos and heard little about the 093B so this new sub could indeed be that.



It's probably best to wait & see. But with submarines, I doubt the community would be getting any photographs for several years.


----------



## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> I'm very much doubtful that the Chinese have reached the level of the U-212 in terms of submarine acoustic stealth. I'd be very surprised if the latest 039B1 could reach _Soryu_-levels of acoustic performance, to say the least.


I dont know why all the fuzz about _Soryu class>?????_
tell me what is it so "distinctive" and "advanced"``? just because it is made by Japan??
the only "advantage" it has over Chinese new subs is that can dive few meters deeper than ours. 
But in terms of quietness, weapon variety, communication system, propulsion system, power management system and costs! it is much inferior than China's`````actually French and few other European countries make much bettter subs than Japan does```

U-212? ok, tell me can it swim with 10+knots underwater for 8 hours without popping up for bit a fresh air? or can it keep jogging for 5+knots for 2 weeks without a break on the surface?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> It's probably best to wait & see. But with submarines, I doubt the community would be getting any photographs for several years.


The nuclear sub area is the most sensitive part of the entire PLA ... much more so than any other area like missiles or aircraft engines. The only report we've gotten on PLAN sub noise levels is from that 2009 ONI report, which relied on even earlier data (basically early 2000s). So basically, we're completely in the dark when it comes to relative noise levels on Chinese nuclear subs ...


----------



## rcrmj

in conventional subs, we look up to no one, more infos will leak through official channel in near future`````

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

Figaro said:


> The nuclear sub area is the most sensitive part of the entire PLA ... much more so than any other area like missiles or aircraft engines. The only report we've gotten on PLAN sub noise levels is from that 2009 ONI report, which relied on even earlier data (basically early 2000s). So basically, we're completely in the dark when it comes to relative noise levels on Chinese nuclear subs ...



I would say that we're in the dark when it comes to the subs of other countries as well. As things should be, if those in charge of OPSEC continue to be competent in their profession.


----------



## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> I would say that we're in the dark when it comes to the subs of other countries as well. As things should be, if those in charge of OPSEC continue to be competent in their profession.


It's just that the PLAN in particular is super secretive when it comes to its nuclear sub ... like no other nation. The data we have are largely from the beginning of the century. But why would we compare the PLAN of 2003 to that of today? The 09V is largely guess-work, although that Ma Weiming revelation was very huge.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

According to Henri K, the JL-3 has conducted the land test back in June.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/905434062487244804

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Akasa

Figaro said:


> It's just that the PLAN in particular is super secretive when it comes to its nuclear sub ... like no other nation. The data we have are largely from the beginning of the century. But why would we compare the PLAN of 2003 to that of today? The 09V is largely guess-work, although that Ma Weiming revelation was very huge.



I'm sure US & European intelligence have a far more accurate assessment of the 09III/09IV's capabilities than what was reflected in that ONI report. 

I managed to locate the rumor, and it appears that the text did mention a new class of submarine (as opposed to a new unit of a submarine), so things are definitely getting interesting.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> According to Henri K, the JL-3 has conducted the land test back in June.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/905434062487244804


He claimed that alledged DF-26B test was a JL-3 test? I'm quite confused by his assessment ...



SinoSoldier said:


> I'm sure US & European intelligence have a far more accurate assessment of the 09III/09IV's capabilities than what was reflected in that ONI report.
> 
> I managed to locate the rumor, and it appears that the text did mention a new class of submarine (as opposed to a new unit of a submarine), so things are definitely getting interesting.


Well, then they aren't willing to disclose it in the form of an ONI report or in the DoD's annual review.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> According to Henri K, the JL-3 has conducted the land test back in June.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/905434062487244804



The solid motors did, not necessarily the missile itself. The actual SLBM would probably be tested in a year or two. Following that, a few years of trials would be necessary before the JL-3 could achieve IOC. Take the JL-2's horrendously-long trial time as a reference.


----------



## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> The solid motors did, not necessarily the missile itself. The actual SLBM would probably be tested in a year or two. Following that, a few years of trials would be necessary before the JL-3 could achieve IOC. Take the JL-2's horrendously-long trial time as a reference.


The JL-2 was the Chinese's first attempt at developing a truly intercontinental SLBM and at the end, it worked. The transition to the JL-3 should be much more straight forward. The JL-2 also has MIRV's I believe ... another benefit. You can just go look at the torturous development cycle of the Russian Bulava for reference.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> From what I known, the JL-3 is scheduled to be tested on the modified Type 032 in the next year.


The parameters I've got for the JL-3 are 12-13 thousand kilometer range, payload of 10 MIRV's, placed in 24 missile tubes on the 096. If correct, the 096/JL-3 combo will be bigger boost to China's nuclear deterrence than any DF-41, DF-31AG, or DF-5C.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Figaro said:


> He claimed that alledged DF-26B test was a JL-3 test? I'm quite confused by his assessment ...
> 
> 
> Well, then they aren't willing to disclose it in the form of an ONI report or in the DoD's annual review.



From what I known, the JL-3 is scheduled to be tested on the modified Type 032 in the next year.



Figaro said:


> The JL-2 was the Chinese's first attempt at developing a truly intercontinental SLBM and at the end, it worked. The transition to the JL-3 should be much more straight forward. The JL-2 also has MIRV's I believe ... another benefit. You can just go look at the torturous development cycle of the Russian Bulava for reference.



The JL-2A with 12000KM will only carry few MIRV warheads, and with the US keeps increasing their anti-missile defense systems, China needs to develop a new type of SLBM with a range at least up to 12000KM, while the MIRV number can maintain up to 10 thermonuclear warheads.



Figaro said:


> The parameters I've got for the JL-3 are 12-13 thousand kilometer range, payload of 10 MIRV's, placed in 24 missile tubes on the 096. If correct, the 096/JL-3 combo will be bigger boost to China's nuclear deterrence than any DF-41, DF-31AG, or DF-5C.



The JL-3 can reach 12000KM with 10 thermonuclear warheads.

In comparison, the JL-2A can reach 12000KM with only 3 thermonuclear warheads.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Akasa

Figaro said:


> The JL-2 was the Chinese's first attempt at developing a truly intercontinental SLBM and at the end, it worked. The transition to the JL-3 should be much more straight forward. The JL-2 also has MIRV's I believe ... another benefit. You can just go look at the torturous development cycle of the Russian Bulava for reference.



The JL-2 failed to achieve the ultimate goal of providing the PLAN with the ability to strike CONUS from well-protected Chinese waters, with only a 7400-8000 km range. JL-3 would essentially be a new missile, and would be to the JL-2 what the DF-31AG was to the DF-31A.


----------



## samsara

rcrmj said:


> I dont know why all the fuzz about _Soryu class>?????_
> tell me what is it so "distinctive" and "advanced"``? *just because it is made by Japan??*
> the only "advantage" it has over Chinese new subs is that can dive few meters deeper than ours.
> But in terms of quietness, weapon variety, communication system, propulsion system, power management system and costs! it is much inferior than China's`````actually French and few other European countries make much bettter subs than Japan does```
> 
> U-212? ok, tell me can it swim with 10+knots underwater for 8 hours without popping up for bit a fresh air? or can it keep jogging for 5+knots for 2 weeks without a break on the surface?


EXACTLY! the word soryu or japan will have higher possibility to trigger the seek out response and hopefully further info  just tried to hit some nerve of some kind of inferiority complex or other complex to trigger some sought after response... 

one should really ask oneself whether or not the japan question is still really relevant in today's setup

has anyone noticed this tweet??? how does one feel then? for me it looks like a desperate attempt to seek out some info 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/907503069327278080

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## 星海军事

grey boy 2 said:


> China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation ( CSIC ) has delivered a "New Type" of nuclear submarine" to PLAN, possibly be "095"?



No. There are a few pages between the 2nd and the 3rd generation nuclear submarines of PLAN.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

星海军事 said:


> No. There are a few pages between the 2nd and the 3rd generation nuclear submarines of PLAN.


I'm not sure about that. The PLAN never made any kind of this type of announcement for the 093B or 094A even after they were operating. I think this indeed might be a completely new class of nuclear submarine, although I'm uncertain as to if its the 095. Time will tell.


----------



## Zarvan

Figaro said:


> I'm not sure about that. The PLAN never made any kind of this type of announcement for the 093B or 094A even after they were operating. I think this indeed might be a completely new class of nuclear submarine, although I'm uncertain as to if its the 095. Time will tell.


Is it Type 95 or Type 96 which will be next Generation Sub ?


----------



## Figaro

Zarvan said:


> Is it Type 95 or Type 96 which will be next Generation Sub ?


95 is a nuclear attack sub. 96 is a nuclear missile sub. One is used for conventional warfare while the other is for nuclear deterrence.


----------



## 星海军事

Figaro said:


> The PLAN never made any kind of this type of announcement for the 093B or 094A even after they were operating.



Because they don't even exist in the order of battle of PLAN as for now.


----------



## Figaro

星海军事 said:


> Because they don't even exist in the order of battle of PLAN as for now.


I’m not sure about that ... we’ll just have to see more photos.


----------



## grey boy 2

9月14日，国务院派驻中船重工监事会主席刘顺达到渤船调研。

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> 9月14日，国务院派驻中船重工监事会主席刘顺达到渤船调研。


095?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rcrmj

Figaro said:


> 95 is a nuclear attack sub. 96 is a nuclear missile sub. One is used for conventional warfare while the other is for nuclear deterrence.


095 is still strictly classified````the "newest nu-sub" is actually a modified 093, but huge boost of its arsenals, sonars and control-and-command system````we are all holding breath for 095, wish it will surprise us like new AIP-subs do``

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Figaro said:


> 095?



It is the Type 096, it gonna have a lower hump like the Ohio/Columbia class SSBN.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Figaro

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is the Type 096, it gonna have a lower hump like the Ohio/Columbia class SSBN.


Some people say it is only 094A ... which is referred to as the new nuclear submarine

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Figaro said:


> Some people say it is only 094A ... which is referred to as the new nuclear submarine



The Type 094A has already been deployed long time ago, and it doesn't look like that.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## grey boy 2

YJ-18 dual speed cruise missiles (sub-sonic/super-sonic) launching from submarine (鹰击-18亚音速/超音速反舰导弹潜艇发射试验)​

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## samsara

*China's ultra-sensitive magnetic sensor technology to capture all submarines [SOSUS]*

The new magnetometer developed by the Chinese Academy of Sciences can capture the weakest magnetic field in a few kilometers away. The basis of this instrument is the *Superconducting Quantum Interferometer (SQUID)*, which utilizes the principles of quantum mechanics. The SQUID can record changes in the electronic interference situation under the influence of an external magnetic field, which has a discontinuous stepped characteristic.





China's new SOSUS system- Schematic diagram 中国新打造的SOSUS系统原理图​
In the Chinese Navy's SOSUS or sound surveillance system, this new technology is currently China's leading technology in the world, called superconducting quantum interferometer (SQUID). SQUID utilizes the principles of quantum mechanics and a new set of Chinese scientists to develop a new algorithm that captures the weakest disturbance of objects on the Earth's magnetic field in a few kilometers, and its acquired signals are transmitted through the submarine fiber to the ultra-high-speed information processing center, so that experienced anti-submarine experts locked the enemy underwater attack platform accurate location. Once China has applied this technology to the underwater detection network, then all the submarine noise reduction efforts in the United States, Japan and NATO are lost. Because even if the American advanced "Sea Wolf" class nuclear submarines shut down the engines and all equipment for their own safety, do not make any sound, but will still be found by the SQUID based ultra-sensitive magnetometer network.





China's new SOSUS system - Model 中国海军SOSUS系统的模型​
*中国研制出超灵敏磁力传感器技术 能捕获一切潜艇 [2017-08-29]*
http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2017-08-29/doc-ifykiurx2626638.shtml

See also:

*An Ultra-Sensitive Magnetic Field Sensor Based on Extrinsic Fiber-Optic Fabry–Perot Interferometer and Terfenol-D*
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7112460/

Abstract:
We report a fiber-optic magnetic field sensor with ultra-high sensitivity based on a precisely configured extrinsic fiber-optic Fabry-Perot interferometer (EFFPI) and Terfenol-D slab. The EFFPI was simply formed by placing two well-cleaved single-mode fibers with carefully designed spacing and it was bonded to the surface of a Terfenol-D slab by epoxy resin. The experiments demonstrate good linear relationship between the applied magnetic field strength and the wavelength shift up to 560 Oe and the measurement range is only limited by the available bandwidth of the light source. The maximal sensitivity of the magnetic field measured by the proposed sensor is 854.73 pm/Oe through monitoring the shift of wavelength dip of the spectrum reflected from the EFFPI, which is significantly larger than most of the reported results. We also evaluated the repeatability of the proposed sensor and the performance of the proposed sensor working at a direct-current (dc)-biased magnetic field. Results indicated that the proposed fiber-optic magnetic field sensor exhibits good restorable measurement performance up to 140 Oe and a preapplied dc magnetic field can be used to extend the linear measurement dynamic range.

Published in: Journal of Lightwave Technology ( Volume: 33, Issue: 15, Aug.1, 1 2015 )

I. Introduction
The magnetic field sensor can be widely used in the information storage, navigation, aerospace, military, and biomedical detection [1], etc. In the past few years, magneto-optical sensors have attracted great attention due to their unique advantages, such as small size, compact design, low cost, and immunity to electromagnetic interference as compared with their conventional competitors [2]. In principle, the fiber-optic system can detect magnetic field directly by measure the Faraday rotation of the light polarization [3]. Since no external transducer is required, this mechanism is ideal as an intrinsic sensor. However, its sensitivity is low due to the small Verdet constant of silica fibers. In order to employ fiber-optics to sense magnetic field and overcome the drawback of small magnetic sensitivity, the concept of fiber-optic strain sensor in conjunction with magnetostrictive material to detect tiny magnetic fields was first proposed in 1980 [4] and then achieved in 1983 [5]. In this kind of fiber-optic magnetic sensor, the magnetostrictive material functions as a magnetic actuator with magnetostrictive strain as the output, while the fiber-optic strain sensor operates as a strain sensor with the magnetostrictive strain from the magnetostrictive materials as the input [6].

Authors:

ZHANG Peng
National Engineering Laboratory for Next Generation Internet Access System, School of Optics and Electronic Information, Huazhong University of Science and Technology, Wuhan, China

TANG Ming
National Engineering Laboratory for Next Generation Internet Access System, School of Optics and Electronic Information, Huazhong University of Science and Technology, Wuhan, China

GAO Feng
National Engineering Laboratory for Next Generation Internet Access System, School of Optics and Electronic Information, Huazhong University of Science and Technology, Wuhan, China

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> YJ-18 dual speed cruise missiles (sub-sonic/super-sonic) launching from submarine (鹰击-18亚音速/超音速反舰导弹潜艇发射试验)​


Doesn’t look like a Klub variant to me ...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## samsara

A new type of automatic buoy, which regulates military acoustic listening network (?), finished the first 2-year test phase.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/912720397216256001

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cnleio

Figaro said:


> Doesn’t look like a Klub variant to me ...


As far as i knew the YJ-18 is China version Klub (China ever learnt something from the Klub) ... but YJ-18 get more improvements from the Klub.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Abdul Mannan Tariq

What is the estimated cost of Type 95 submarine in $ ?


----------



## grey boy 2

Launching anti-ship missiles from submarine

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ashok321

grey boy 2 said:


> Launching anti-ship missiles from submarine



Launched from torpedo tube.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cnleio

grey boy 2 said:


> Launching anti-ship missiles from submarine


Waiting for VLS-launch on China sub

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## grey boy 2

Subs from Lushun 旅顺黑鱼




















Check this out guys, some kind of new design? real or just PS thing?

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## lcloo

Type 032G submarine weapon testbed. Could be built for test launch of JL-3 ICBM.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

One more from Lushan

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

Home of submarines (Sanya navy base)
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

New fish in town 039X modified version (039大改)
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## grey boy 2

6 nuclear submarines (3 094, 3 093)spotted at the same base (近日，网上传出一张疑似在中国某地，同时出现了3艘094级战略核潜艇，和3艘093级核潜艇一起出现的画面，而这在一个照片内同时出现的最多数量的中国核潜艇。)
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> New fish in town 039X modified version (039大改)
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.


I think this is the 039B

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## grey boy 2

Rumors that the one at the right is 093B nuclear attack submarine







Figaro said:


> I think this is the 039B


6 039B under construction at the same time in 2 shipyards

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## grey boy 2

New sub (pictures taken on 10/22/2017)

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## samsara

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921409379949096960

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 星海军事

It seems that the second batch of IIIA is equipped with permanent magnet motor.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> It seems that the second batch of IIIA is equipped with permanent magnet motor.



When would the production of the follow-on "039C" begin (i.e. at what batch)?


----------



## samsara

*Xi Jinping’s ‘China Dream’ gave boost to its Blue Water navy ambitions and funds were made available for the expansion of the nuclear submarine programme.*

Every country with Blue Water navy ambitions needs nuclear submarines to carry ballistic missiles quietly closer to its adversary’s shores. And that includes China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).

From ThePrint, an India’s news media:


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/922468071423352832

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/922444848245891074

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

The JL-3 is also under the trial, so the Type 096 won't need to wait for its SLBM at the moment of the deployment like the previous Type 094.



samsara said:


> *Xi Jinping’s ‘China Dream’ gave boost to its Blue Water navy ambitions and funds were made available for the expansion of the nuclear submarine programme.*
> 
> Every country with Blue Water navy ambitions needs nuclear submarines to carry ballistic missiles quietly closer to its adversary’s shores. And that includes China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).
> 
> From ThePrint, an India’s news media:
> 
> View attachment 432877
> 
> View attachment 432878



This article is pure trash, not even worthy to be posted here.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## grey boy 2

Good news: Permanent Magnet propulsion motors successfully going through all testing 20 days 24/7 nonstop in Sanya (无桨潜艇发动机？) 确实是个不大不小的新闻










，某艇看来可以了










Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

Reactions: Like Like:
14


----------



## samsara

China's first *permanent magnet naval propulsion motors*, designed by CSIC 712, were successfully tested on a ship on 18 October.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/922481529518923777
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

_Allegedly it's carried out on the batch IIIA of the 039B series submarines._
_。_

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Han Patriot

samsara said:


> China's first *permanent magnet naval propulsion motors*, designed by CSIC 712, were successfully tested on a ship on 18 October.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/922481529518923777
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> _Allegedly it's carried out on the batch IIIA of the 039B series submarines._
> _。_


I still remember someone was doubting China had this technology. Remember the Admiral Ma video where we clearly saw that model of propulsion and everyone was going up against us.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1071828.shtml

China has conducted a trial run on the country's first permanent magnet propulsion motor for naval vessels, with experts saying that it marks a significant breakthrough in the country's naval vessel building industry, especially for the nuclear submarines. 

The State-owned China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC), which is known for its aircraft carriers and the Jiaolong submersible vessel, made a statement on its official WeChat public account on Monday that the permanent magnet motor with a Chinese patent has been used on naval vessels docked at Sanya, South China's Hainan Province, the base of China's conventional and nuclear submarine fleet. 

The statement said the vessel's propeller began to turn at 11 am on October 18, then reached the designated speed, which signified the success of the permanent magnet propulsion.

Although the statement did not disclose the type of vessels the motor was tested on, Chinese military experts say they believe the motor is specially designed for China's submarines and can substantially improve their performance in many aspects, especially by significantly reducing their running sound to the lowest possible level.

The new high-performance permanent magnet motors made from rare-earth materials avoid the flaws of traditional motors that work under the excitation principle, and can provide much greater power density, and can significantly reduce its working noise," Song Zhongping, a military analyst who previously served with the PLA Rocket Force, told the Global Times on Tuesday. 

Back in *May, Rear Admiral Ma Weiming*, China's top naval engineer, in an interview with China Central Television, said that the navy was supplying its newest nuclear attack submarines with a *"shaftless," rim-driven pump-jet*, which was considered a revolutionary, low-noise propulsion system.

Ma said that the technology was ahead of the US and more efficient and suitable for high-speed nuclear submarines.
*Newspaper headline: Propulsion system boosts submarine capability*

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## 星海军事

Han Warrior said:


> Back in *May, Rear Admiral Ma Weiming*, China's top naval engineer, in an interview with China Central Television, said that the navy was supplying its newest nuclear attack submarines with a *"shaftless," rim-driven pump-jet*, which was considered a revolutionary, low-noise propulsion system.



He never said that. It is simply a misinterpretation.


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> He never said that. It is simply a misinterpretation.



What's your take on the newly-spotted 16.5-meter rings at Bohai Shipyard? Do you think they're parts for the next-gen PLAN SSBN?

https://theprint.in/2017/10/23/china-takes-the-dive-puts-thrust-on-building-nuclear-submarines/


----------



## Han Patriot

星海军事 said:


> He never said that. It is simply a misinterpretation.


I think that article needs some correction, Ma was talking about IEPS but then in one of the pics, a model of the magnetic propulsion was seen.


----------



## samsara

*EDIT: Just ignore the infamous, bogus "ONI Noise chart", which is quoted everywhere in the most articles about the Chinese subs.*


samsara said:


> *Xi Jinping’s ‘China Dream’ gave boost to its Blue Water navy ambitions and funds were made available for the expansion of the nuclear submarine programme.*
> 
> Every country with Blue Water navy ambitions needs nuclear submarines to carry ballistic missiles quietly closer to its adversary’s shores. And that includes China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).
> 
> From ThePrint, an India’s news media:
> 
> View attachment 432877
> 
> View attachment 432878

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

*The advantages of permanent magnet propulsion motor vs induction motor*
http://www.maritimejournal.com/news101/power-and-propulsion/permanent-magnet-drive-trains

*PERMANENT MAGNET DRIVE TRAINS*





The Switch argument is that PM drive train solutions are compact, with less weight and volume than conventional drive trains





A typical permanent magnet drive train from the Switch





The Switch PMM 1000 M shaft generator

25 Mar 2015

*According to Finland- based propulsion specialist, The Switch, permanent magnet (PM) drive train technology for electric propulsion brings a powerful solution to the big diesel dilemma, which combines tougher environmental considerations with a long-term perspective of increasing fuel costs.*

PM machines could offer special seafaring vessels the opportunity to lower operational costs by optimising the fuel consumption of the diesel engine. Using permanent magnet (PM) motors and generators as key elements in advanced drive trains allows ship owners to take advantage of a more flexible, modular, efficient and lightweight propulsion system.

*OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE*
According to The Switch, PM drive trains are ideal for the electric propulsion of tugboats, OSVs, ferries, cruise lines, research vessels, icebreakers and more. The technology enables ships to lower their operational costs by optimising fuel consumption of the diesel engine. It is also known for its unmatched design flexibility. Thanks to their higher power density, PM machines can pack more power in a package that is far more compact, lighter in weight and smaller in size compared with induction machines.

PM machines have proven their high reliability and durability under extremely harsh operating conditions in many industrial applications. For example, they are used in wind turbines, which operate in a much harsher environment than the challenging marine market. In direct propulsion systems, no gearbox or accompanying slip rings and brushes are needed, as with other synchronous machines. Therefore, the PM propulsion machine experiences fewer failures and requires significantly less maintenance.

*SYSTEM EFFICIENCY*
The company also claims that a PM machine gives high-efficiency performance over the entire operating range, significantly cutting back on fuel consumption. The Switch’s figures claim that a PM machine is typically 2–4% more efficient at full load and 10% more efficient at part load when compared with induction machines. These efficiencies result from a lack of current losses in the rotor, the absence of an exciter, and reduced winding losses.

PM propulsion motors and their inverters efficiently turn available energy into thrust. Although standard induction motors can reach high efficiency in a narrow band around their nominal working area, PM motors are designed to deliver even higher efficiency in a much wider speed and torque range.

A synchronous PM machine contains Neodymium-Iron-Boron (NdFeB) magnets, which are materials with a very high flux density. This makes them ideal for variable-speed motors and generators throughout the entire speed range. The magnet field is created with almost zero rotor losses.

*DYNAMIC POSITIONING*
The electric propulsion of PM drive trains allows for extra maneuverability for dynamic positioning, which makes it a ideal technology for support and service ships like supply vessels, cruise ships or ice breakers. During dynamic positioning, a low speed with constant acceleration and deceleration is needed to keep the ship in place when adapting to weather and sea conditions. PM machines have the ability to function efficiently at low speeds and throughout the entire load range. In vessels where all energy is produced by fuel, a lower consumption leads to an improved operational range and lower operational costs.

Constantly varying speeds and loads can benefit from the active motor cooling, which keeps operating temperatures low. This results in small, but significant, efficiency improvements over time.

*FREEQUENCY CONVERTORS*
Optimised for best efficiency, the frequency converter is based on insulated gate bipolar transistors (IGBT) with advanced vector control technology. It is optimized to work with PM machines for the best overall system efficiency. The Switch frequency converters offer a modular, lightweight design, which enables efficient use of space within the vessel.

A frequency converter offers the accurate and adjustable speed control needed for dynamic positioning and demanding load cycles in offshore and special vessels. The high-energy density of PM technology and the resulting decrease in rotor inertia are both beneficial when the ship needs high maneuverability and a DP-class propulsion system. This results in optimum fuel efficiency and lower levels of exhaust.

To handle highly fluctuating load cycles, guarantee longer engine life, cut back on fuel consumption and reach lower exhaust values, adjustable speed control is ideal. This avoids the low or no-load running of generators, which minimises engine heat stress, reduces fuel consumption and eliminates undesired start/stop engine cycles.

*TRACK RECORD*
Although new to marine applications, The Switch adds that PM technology has in fact been a game changer for many years in other industries, such as wind power, where it ensures the highest energy efficiency and lowest cost of operation. As a bonus, this technology helps future-proof ships when it comes to even the strictest environmental legislation.

PM machines have a proven track record of efficiency and environmental friendliness in many demanding industrial applications, including marine, and according to The Switch they far outperform induction machines. Not only have PM drive trains shown that they lower fuel consumption and provide more power, but they are also proven to last longer and require less maintenance. Additionally, the compactness of PM drive trains leads to significant weight and space savings.

As cost pressures mount and environmental regulations become more stringent, multipurpose service vessels that operate primarily at partial load conditions need a novel approach to save on operational costs. The Switch argument is that PM drive train solutions are compact, with less weight and volume than conventional drive trains. They offer unsurpassed flexibility and a smaller footprint for all types of configurations, a huge advantage in the shipping environment where space is always a critical factor.

*By Jake Frith*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> What's your take on the newly-spotted 16.5-meter rings at Bohai Shipyard? Do you think they're parts for the next-gen PLAN SSBN?
> 
> https://theprint.in/2017/10/23/china-takes-the-dive-puts-thrust-on-building-nuclear-submarines/



I think that's too large for a submarine.


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> I think that's too large for a submarine.



Not necessarily since the Oscar and Typhoon were larger.


----------



## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> Not necessarily since the Oscar and Typhoon were larger.


Neither of them owns a circular cross section.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ashok321

*Xi Jinping’s ‘China Dream’ gave boost to its Blue Water navy ambitions and funds were made available for the expansion of the nuclear submarine programme.*

Every country with Blue Water navy ambitions needs nuclear submarines to carry ballistic missiles quietly closer to its adversary’s shores. And that includes China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).

China’s submarine force, especially the nuclear submarine force, has been derided by most Western analysts as the noisiest and therefore easily detectable. The chart below by the US Office of Naval Intelligence or ONI has been reproduced by many websites.







China has pursued construction of its nuclear submarines with a single-minded determination and speed. China’s nuclear submarines or SSN count varies from 11 to 13 with four Type 91 Han-class (one not active) and 8 to 10 Type 93 Shang-class variants.

The nuclear ballistic missiles carrying submarines or SSBN count is at least 7, with one Type 92 Xia-class and rest Type 94 Jin-class. The nuclear submarines of PLAN have all been constructed at Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Company Limited (BSHIC) at Huludao. The BSHIC is probably a subsidiary of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation or CSIC.

*Expansion of production facility*
The Huludao facility felt the need for additional space when it started construction of Type 94 Jin-class submarines some time in 2005.Although the need for expansion was felt a while back, the project was constrained by the availability of funds. The expansion work was thus limited to land reclamation only, which continued from 2007 to 2013.

Xi Jinping’s ‘China Dream’ gave boost to the Blue Water navy ambitions and possibly funds were made available for the expansion of BSHIC’s nuclear submarine programme. The new facility on the Eastern side of Bohai shipyard started construction in mid-2015. The construction became visible and clear by mid-2016.

*Gigantic new facility*
The gigantic nature of this facility was revealed when the assembly hall could be compared with Hall No. 42 of Russian Severodvinsk submarine construction facility.
The size of BSHIC Huludao hall is 285 m x 130 m with more than 40,000 sq m area.

The height is almost double the previous halls in that location. It has three bays with large overhead double girder magnet gantry cranes fitted it, which could easily shift/move submarine modules to and fro. The width of girders at the top of gantries is 9 m, suggesting they could lift very heavy loads.

There is another hall of 200 m x 170 m being constructed to the north of this assembly hall. This probably will produce modules for submarines. It has five bays, two of which are smaller than others. Both the halls have traverser rails in front for transfer of modules from one hall to the other.

Thus this new assembly hall could possibly construct six nuclear submarines at any given time. The hall not only provides the workers and equipment from harsh weather conditions of Huludao but also provides cover from the prying eyes of satellites that could learn about PLAN submarine progress.





Huludao Nuclear Submarine Assembly Hall | Source: Vinayak Bhat
*New submarine revealed*
A closer look while assessing this facility revealed some parts, possibly of a new submarine. The width of these parts is almost 16.5 m, suggesting the probable beam of the new submarine is more than 16.5 m. It is assessed that this new submarine which possibly is the new nuclear submarine of China’s PLAN Type 96 which is rumoured to have 24x Julang 3 or JL 3 ballistic missiles with an estimated range between 8,000 km to 12,000 km.

A 16.5 m beam with approximately 4 m of hump would easily accommodate every Dong Feng or DF missile in China’s nuclear ballistic missiles inventory.

*Implications*
It is assessed that the new submarine production facility constructed at Huludao will enhance the speed of the Chinese PLAN nuclear submarine production by at least six times. Any increase in China’s equipment profile would have an effect on India’s security scenario. This particular capability would increase China’s abilities to snoop on Indian naval activities in the Indian Ocean Region and the Arabian Sea.

China’s nuclear submarines have been visiting Karachi and Colombo. China has also been a supplier of submarines to Pakistan and Bangladesh. It will be interesting to watch if China would proliferate the new nuclear submarines to its favourite, Pakistan. The Julang 2 and 3 with 8,000 km or more range can cover the entire IOR with ease. The looming threat of Julang missiles will be omnipresent.








https://theprint.in/2017/10/23/china-takes-the-dive-puts-thrust-on-building-nuclear-submarines/

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> Neither of them owns a circular cross section.



Their inner rings are circular. This simply suggests that, if these 16.5 meter rings are indeed for a new SSBN, then the boat would likely rival the Typhoon in size.


----------



## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> Their inner rings are circular. This simply suggests that, if these 16.5 meter rings are indeed for a new SSBN, then the boat would likely rival the Typhoon in size.


Those large light hulls with noncircular cross section were meant for several smaller pressure hulls, but light hulls with circular cross section contains only one. I don't see any clear evidence to design such a large pressure hull with a diameter over 14 m. Also, 14 m is too large for a four-deck design while not enough for a five-deck design.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Daniel808

星海军事 said:


> Those large light hulls with noncircular cross section were meant for several smaller pressure hulls, but light hulls with circular cross section contains only one. I don't see any clear evidence to design such a large pressure hull with a diameter over 14 m. Also, 14 m is too large for a four-deck design while not enough for a five-deck design.



So, we will see "hump" again in Type 096 SSBN?

Because what we see from Type 032 upgrade last year to accomodate JL-3 SLBM they need at least 1.5 meters more length than JL-2 SLBM (which is JL-2 length is already 13 meters)

If Type 096 SSBN don't have any "hump" at least they need 15.5-16 meters diameter hull (close to the size in satellite photo).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 星海军事

Daniel808 said:


> So, we will see "hump" again in Type 096 SSBN?



That is within expectation. Actually, every active SSBN with a single pressure hull has an either large or small hump, including the Triomphant-class.



Daniel808 said:


> Because what we see from Type 032 upgrade last year to accomodate JL-3 SLBM they need at least 1.5 meters more length than JL-2 SLBM (which is JL-2 length is already 13 meters)



All tests of JL-2 were performed by Type 31. Thus it is not very possible for you to spot the differences between JL-2 and the next-gen SLBM from Type 32.



Daniel808 said:


> If Type 096 SSBN don't have any "hump" at least they need 15.5-16 meters diameter hull (close to the size in satellite photo).



It is not necessary to eliminate the hump and if you take a look at an earlier satellite image of the same place you can even find rings with 18 m diameter.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cirr

Looks like full speed ahead with construction of nuclear subs 95/96

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

cirr said:


> Looks like full speed ahead with construction of nuclear subs 95/96



How do you know? Based on what evidence? Apparently the new hull "rings" are not related.


----------



## 52051

According to Ma Weiming durign the Congress meeting interview, *China's Type-095/096 SSN/SSBN's propulsion system will be a generation ahead of the next gen US SSN/SSBN.*

Congrats to genius like Ma Weiming and Yang Wei (both elected to be standing memeber of central commitee of China this year by the way), genius like them make China's military power leaps at an unbelievable peace

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## 52051

http://www.sohu.com/a/145394852_817465
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2417855-1-1.html

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

The MS200 is a mini-sub of 200t displacement. Measuring 30m long, 3.6m wide and 4.4m high, for covert missions. Photo by @combatpaparazzi

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/927587366360924160
"It just reminds me of this midget-submarine report in 2015."

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/927590954172784641
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*IMPS - MARITIME SECURITY*
*D&S 2017: Chinese floats whole submarine family for export*
6th November 2017 - 12:11 GMT | by Gordon Arthur in Bangkok






_China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC) S26T submarine of 2,550t displacement (Photo via Shephard)_

Chinese companies were out in force at *Defense & Security 2017 in Bangkok*, including the *China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Company (CSOC)*. Most prominent on its stand was a new family of submarines displacing 1,100t, 600t and 200t.

Scale models of these submarines were displayed alongside a model of the 2,550t S26T (pictured above) currently being built for the Royal Thai Navy (RTN) under a $385 million order lodged in May.

Perhaps the most interesting aspect was a video indicating countries currently interested in procuring Chinese submarines. *In addition to Bangladesh and Pakistan that have already ordered Chinese platforms, those named by CSOC as interested parties are Algeria, Cuba, Egypt, Libya, Myanmar, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Venezuela.*

In a rare move from a state-owned Chinese corporation, a lot of specifications about this family of submarines were available. This relative openness, as well as the revelation of a family range spanning 200t to more than 2,500t, shows China is serious about gaining greater export clients for its underwater technology.

*The S26T, it was revealed, is customised for the RTN though based on the Yuan class (Type 041) designed for the People’s Liberation Army Navy. It measures 77.7m long, has an 8.6m beam, height of 9.2m and can dive 300m deep.*

The type’s maximum speed is 17kt and it can swim submerged for 260nm at 80% battery capacity. Its range using air-independent propulsion (AIP) is 768nm or 20 days. Meanwhile, its maximum range for mixed AIP and diesel-electric travel is 2,000nm or 65 days.

The teardrop-shaped hull accommodates 38 crew in 46 available berths. The boat is divided into six compartments, and employs a cross-stern rudder and bow hydroplanes. An optronic mast is fitted on the sail, while the type can launch anti-ship missiles.

It will still take some time for China to construct the submarine for Thailand, with delivery expected in 2023. The RTN will eventually receive three submarines, with the budget allowing only one to be ordered at a time.

Continuing down in scale, the 1,100t submarine is 60m long, 5.6m wide and 6.8m high. Its speed is listed as 15kt, with a submerged AIP range of 800nm and mixed range of 3,000nm. It can dive 200m deep and carry 18 crew for up to 30 days. It carries ten torpedoes.

Moving further down in scale, the 600t conventional submarine is 50m long, 4.5m wide and 5.6m high. It travels at a top speed of 15kt with an AIP range of 400nm and submerged mixed range of 2,000nm. The 600t boat has a crew of 15 and can sustain a 20-day journey.

Finally, the MS200 is a mini-submarine of 200t displacement. Measuring 30m long, 3.6m wide and 4.4m high, it is designed for covert missions. It operates with a crew of six and can carry eight special forces operatives.

This small submarine moves at a maximum 8kt speed and submerged range of 120nm. Its endurance is 15 days and it can travel for up to 1,500nm submerged. It has two launching devices for torpedoes or mines.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps-news/ds-2017-chinese-floats-whole-submarine-family-expo/

。。。

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

CCTV 4 the international channel conveyed in Chinese language just made a *bold claim yet done very casually in a low-profile means* through one of its regular broadcast program on 18 November 2017. Fans who don't pay attention into its many regular programs will easily miss such low-key revelation 

*China's Type 095 nuclear submarine is (or will pretty soon be) using the shaftless drive technology in conjunction with the IPS (integrated electric propulsion) technology. *

Watch the video here:

*[Chinese Perspective]《深度国际》 20171118 Speeding up China's aircraft carrier 提速 中国航母 | CCTV-4*




_a 27-min program with Engsub_

*At 8:36 ~ 9:50*_ (see below transcript)_
Recently, the PLA Navy has spread the good news that it has already received a new model of nuclear submarine. The research and development of this nuclear submarine *took five years*, and used *shaftless drive technology*, which is believed to be the *Type 095 nuclear submarine*. Military experts have said that shaftless drive technology stopped using traditional mechanical propulsion shafts, and *instead used an IPS (integrated electric propulsion)*. Traditional mechanical propulsion shafts occupy _at least 50% of the length of a submarine_ and will produce large amounts of noise.

Shaftless drive technology is a *revolutionary technology* that *saves a great deal of space in submarines* and *reduces up to 10% of noise*. *This has also led to the level of quietness in China's submarines surpassing the US and Russia.* enjoy:

The key is that the IPS can reduce noise. If this system is completely simplified, then whether they are submarines or surface vessels, their sonar signal underwater will be reduced to a very low level. If the enemies carry out a torpedo attack on all sorts of anti-submarine targets, they might not be able to acquire a target as easily as before, so if you analyze it from these perspectives, the IPS has a very large difference from systems of the past.

。。。

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

China is starting to mass produce the Type 09V/09VI.

The lead ship of the Type 09V will be deployed by 2018, and the Type 096 with the JL-3 SLBM by 2019.

http://www.fyjs.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1885211&extra=page=1

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Akasa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China is starting to mass produce the Type 09V/09VI.
> 
> The lead ship of the Type 09V will be deployed by 2018, and the Type 096 with the JL-3 SLBM by 2019.
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1885211&extra=page=1



It would be impossible for the Type 09V/VI to begin construction now and be deployed by 2019; it took six years for the first 09III to go from construction start to *launch*. A more realistic timeline would be for both to be launched by 2021 and enter service by 2024, assuming that they have indeed begun their construction.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Han Patriot

SinoSoldier said:


> It would be impossible for the Type 09V/VI to begin construction now and be deployed by 2019; it took six years for the first 09III to go from construction start to *launch*. A more realistic timeline would be for both to be launched by 2021 and enter service by 2024, assuming that they have indeed begun their construction.


Read carefully, mass production now, the LEAD SHIP might have been under construction for years. Can you even read Chinese?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Han Patriot said:


> Read carefully, mass production now, the LEAD SHIP might have been under construction for years. Can you even read Chinese?



He is an anti-China troll, the best way is to put him in the ignored list.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## atan651

095 in mass production! I like the sound of that.


----------



## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> He is an anti-China troll, the best way is to put him in the ignored list.




Pardon, but why is one who don't speak Chinese or any certain foreign language - including myself - a troll if he asks for clarification?

That's exactly what I don't get here... esp. since it makes any useful discussion so hard.

Deino

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Deino said:


> Pardon, but why is one who don't speak Chinese or any certain foreign language - including myself - a troll if he asks for clarification?
> 
> That's exactly what I don't get here... esp. since it makes any useful discussion so hard.
> 
> Deino



Keep patronizing these trolls as you want, most Chinese members simply won't take you seriously.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Keep patronizing these trolls as you want, most Chinese members simply won't take you seriously.



Honestly I regret this attitude: To ignore or don't take anyone seriously only since he's critical stops all discussion right from the beginning.
So it's again the same; it seems as if either some of You simply cannot or do not want to argue what in return leads to the strange and IMO stupid situation that You don't take these critical ones seriously while in return I cannot take these fan-boys seriously. The consequence is; no discussion at all!

Why is it patronising if I ask? Isn't this the meaning of a forum especially since a forum where foreigners of different cultural background and languages come together to "discuss"?

If it would be a placard where certain Chinese members just teach the stupid foreigners it would be fine - but then most would not visit this site -, but since it is a forum IMO a decent and honest discussion including uncomfortable or even critical questions MUST be allowed. Or do You disagree?

Sometimes i really don't get it and it seems as if a few have the opinion as if they are god-equal and all they say MUST be taken without and critical request.

Deino

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

Deino said:


> Pardon, but why is one who don't speak Chinese or any certain foreign language - including myself - a troll if he asks for clarification?
> 
> That's exactly what I don't get here... esp. since it makes any useful discussion so hard.
> 
> Deino


Deino, you should be aware of this persona's *true thought* from his many traces at this column, well, most of the times are well guarded, not so distinctive _*except*_ this briefly spotted one showed its very _*true colour*_ , though the post was later removed but I kept a screenshot there pls read it here. Then you will grasp why we don't simply judge from the _face_ values, moreover at the internet forum, faceless interactions whereas every persona can claim as whatever it is (just info, the organized psy-ops thru socmed incl. forums are real deal, few advanced nations are well known for employing an army of prof internet psyop forces incl. the famous Hasbara from ISR ) , merely through the written expressions ... consistency is the key  
。。。

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Pardon, but why is one who don't speak Chinese or any certain foreign language - including myself - a troll if he asks for clarification?
> 
> That's exactly what I don't get here... esp. since it makes any useful discussion so hard.
> 
> Deino


Dont get me wrong Deino....no discrimination but he is pretending to be Chinese.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Brainsucker

samsara said:


> Deino, you should be aware of this persona's *true thought* from his many traces at this column, well, most of the times are well guarded, not so distinctive _*except*_ this briefly spotted one showed its very _*true colour*_ , though the post was later removed but I kept a screenshot there pls read it here. Then you will grasp why we don't simply judge from the _face_ values, moreover at the internet forum, faceless interactions whereas every persona can claim as whatever it is (just info, the organized psy-ops thru socmed incl. forums are real deal, few advanced nations are well known for employing an army of prof internet psyop forces incl. the famous Hasbara from ISR ) , merely through the written expressions ... consistency is the key
> 。。。



Well, I'm surprise about that... quote. I never know that Sino Soldier hates China like that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shahzaz ud din

*NEW CSIC SUBMARINE MODELS SHOW CHINA’S GROWING DESIGN PROWESS*

November 25, 2017






China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation S1100 conventional attack submarine. Photo source: Navy Recognition (www.navyrecognition.com)
Country PortfolioAsia Pacific
Nov 23, 2017Bilal Khan -
*NEW CSIC SUBMARINE MODELS SHOW CHINA’S GROWING DESIGN PROWESS*
ShareTweet


China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) revealed three new conventional submarine models, each with a single-hull structure and teardrop-design, at Defense and Security defence exhibition, which took place from November 6 to 9 in Bangkok, Thailand.

Joining the S20 and S26 double-hull models, CSIC’s new designs are the MS200 miniature submarine and the S600 and S1100 conventional attack submarines (Navy Recognition). The S600 and S1100 are also available with optional air-independent propulsion (AIP), enabling these submarines to operate undersea without snorkeling for oxygen, potentially for up to several weeks depending on the AIP system.

The S1100 displaces 1,100 tons and has a length of 60 m, breath of 5.6 m and height of 6.8 m. CSIC says it has a top speed of 15 knots while submerged and diving depth of 200 m. If equipped with AIP, the S1100 can reach a range of 800 nautical miles while submerged. Accommodating a crew of 18 personnel, the S1100 has an endurance of 30 days and is equipped with four torpedo tubes.

The S600 displaces 600 tons. It has a length of 50 m, breath of 4.6 m and height of 5.6 m. Like the S1100, it has a top underwater speed of 15 knots and diving depth of 200 m. With AIP, the S600 has a range of 600 nautical miles while submerged. It is crewed by 15 personnel and is equipped with four torpedo tubes. The S600 has an endurance of 20 days.

While a miniature submarine, the 200-ton MS200 is equipped with two torpedo tubes. It has a length of 30 m, breath of 3.6 m and height of 4.4 m. The MS200 has a top speed of 8 knots and a submerged range of 120 nautical miles. It can dive to up to 200 m and stay at sea for 15 days. Unlike the S1100 and S600, the MS200 does not come with an AIP option. Alongside its crew of six, the MS200 can deploy eight special operations forces (SOF) operatives.

*Notes & Comments:*

The most notable aspect of the S1100 and S600 compared to the S26 and S20 is that the former are single-hull designs, which depart from the double-hull staple that has traditionally informed Chinese submarine design. These single-hull designs are both lighter weight and potentially cheaper in thorough-life costs.

As a sub-1,000-ton design, the S600 – like the BMT Wyvern and Vidar-7 – can be an attractive low-cost submarine for navies seeking to cheaply raise new or augment existing submarine fleets. The S600 is fully capable of anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-ship warfare (AShW).

However, unlike BMT, which had fused the asymmetrical qualities of a miniature submarine to its 700-ton attack submarine, CSIC seems to have opted to offer separate platforms for asymmetrical (e.g. frogmen) and conventional AShW/ASW. Though it is equipped with two torpedo tubes, the MS200 is likely geared for infiltration and deploying frogmen. In fact, the MS200 does not appear to have a dedicated tube for deploying swimmer delivery vehicles (SDV), which may suggest that at least one torpedo tube is required for SDV use. The Vidar-7 has a dedicated tube for SDVs in addition to four torpedo tubes.

CSIC’s recent reveal also poses new questions regarding Pakistan’s _Hangor (II)_ AIP submarine program. While generally speculated to be a variant of the S26, neither Pakistan or CSIC have disclosed the specific make or model of the _Hangor (II)_. The Pakistan Navy is expecting to receive its first of eight new submarines in 2022 (and all eight by 2028, with four to be built in Pakistan).

It is plausible that CSIC’s new designs are a factor in the _Hangor (II)_ program. While the Agosta 70 and Agosta 90B are double-hull designs, the PN could look to a single-hull design as a means to cut long-term maintenance and operating costs, which could be a potential strain considering that the PN will operate a quantitatively large fleet. Moreover, the submerged range of the S1100 (with AIP) should credibly cover Pakistan’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ) of 350 nautical miles. Interestingly, compared Thailand’s AIP-equipped S26T design, the AIP-equipped S1100 has a slightly longer submerged ferry range (800 nm vs. 768 nm), though the S1100’s mixed range is substantially lower (3,000 nm vs. 8,000 nm).

However, there are potential drawbacks. Unlike the S20 and S26, the S600 and S1100 have fewer torpedo tubes (four vs. six) for heavyweight torpedoes and anti-ship missiles. Granted, the PN’s _Khalid-class_ Agosta 90B is also equipped with four torpedo tubes, but an increase in individual payload would be a valuable gain to augment the overall fleet increase. On the other hand, one could speculate that there is a chance that CSIC has – or could design – a larger single-hull model with six torpedo tubes.

The MS200 may also be of interest to Pakistan. In its 2015-2016 yearbook, Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production revealed that Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) was given a target to construct a miniature submarine. Turkey’s Savunma Teknolojileri Mühendislik ve Ticaret A.Ş. (STM) had proposed co-developing a miniature submarine with KSEW to replace the PN’s Cosmos MG110. However, it is not known if the PN will proceed with the STM program or pursue an alternative, in which case, the MS200 is a plausible option. Besides providing a platform for SOF, the MS200’s two torpedo tubes may also provide anti-ship warfare capabilities suitable for anti-access and area-denial efforts in Pakistan’s littoral waters.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

"Mass" production of Chinese nuclear submarines?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/941231340548128768
Article in French:

*"Mass" production of Chinese nuclear submarines?*

By Henri Kenhmann - 14 December 2017
http://www.eastpendulum.com/production-masse-marins-nucleaires-chinois

China seems to want to produce "mass production" its new generation nuclear submarines, it is in any case what say, in a subtle way, the latest publications of Bohai shipyard. It is here that all the nuclear attack submarines (SSN) and submarine nuclear missile launchers (SSBN) of the Chinese Navy have been produced since 1968.

(...)

Several senior political and industrial leaders have visited the Institute 719 and the Bohai Shipyard since this summer. For example:

The visit of the CEO of the CSIC group to the Institut 719 on August 22, where he heard about the progress made on a "capital project"
The inspection of the Deputy Director General of CSIC from 11 to 12 September on the application of safety standards
The visit of another Deputy Director General of CSIC on September 12 on the management and planning of human and material resources. He renewed his visit a second time, by the way, on November 21st.
The official visit of the Chairman of the Supervisory Board, sent by the State Council and seconded to the CSIC, to monitor the production situation
*This unusual frequency of visits and high-level inspections is also indirect evidence that the launch of so-called "mass production" is imminent.*
。。。

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## leapx

samsara said:


> "Mass" production of Chinese nuclear submarines?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/941231340548128768
> Article in French:
> 
> *"Mass" production of Chinese nuclear submarines?*
> 
> By Henri Kenhmann - 14 December 2017
> http://www.eastpendulum.com/production-masse-marins-nucleaires-chinois
> 
> China seems to want to produce "mass production" its new generation nuclear submarines, it is in any case what say, in a subtle way, the latest publications of Bohai shipyard. It is here that all the nuclear attack submarines (SSN) and submarine nuclear missile launchers (SSBN) of the Chinese Navy have been produced since 1968.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Several senior political and industrial leaders have visited the Institute 719 and the Bohai Shipyard since this summer. For example:
> 
> The visit of the CEO of the CSIC group to the Institut 719 on August 22, where he heard about the progress made on a "capital project"
> The inspection of the Deputy Director General of CSIC from 11 to 12 September on the application of safety standards
> The visit of another Deputy Director General of CSIC on September 12 on the management and planning of human and material resources. He renewed his visit a second time, by the way, on November 21st.
> The official visit of the Chairman of the Supervisory Board, sent by the State Council and seconded to the CSIC, to monitor the production situation
> *This unusual frequency of visits and high-level inspections is also indirect evidence that the launch of so-called "mass production" is imminent.*
> 。。。


Chinese nuclear submarines are definitely the most protected. We can only guess based on limited information.

But if we are going to mass produce nuclear submarines, most likely that means we have some impressive technical breakthrough that is mature and advanced, just like 054A and 052D.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Deino

Figaro said:


> A trip down the memory lane ... the first 093 launching back in 2002



Please do attach the file or image directly here at PDF. Hotlinking an image from another forum is not unwise since the image rarely works and if the link is down or broken it is lost.

Deino


----------



## INDIAPOSITIVE

After a Chinese nuclear attack submarine was discovered by the Japanese navy while submerged near disputed islands in the East China Sea, military experts say it could be too easy to detect. 

The PLA Navy’s 110-metre Shang-class submarine surfaced in international waters with a Chinese flag on its mast on January 12 after it was followed by the Japan Maritime Self-Defence Force for two days.

Some military experts believe the vessel was forced to surface, but others say there is not enough information to back up that theory.

China’s defence ministry has not responded to inquiries from the South China Morning Post regarding the incident. 

What is known is that the submarine entered the contiguous zone less than 24 nautical miles from the contested Diaoyu Islands, which are known as the Senkakus in Japan. 

Relations between China and Japan have long been tense because of historical issues and their territorial disputes over the tiny, uninhabited archipelago – which lies between Taiwan and the southern Japanese island of Okinawa – that is controlled by Japan but also claimed by China.

It was the first time a Chinese navy submarine had come so close to the islands, leading to speculation that it was an apparent move by China to demonstrate its sovereignty claim. 

But the early and long exposure of its underwater trajectory, according to military experts, suggests the vessel is not as quiet as it should be. Japan’s defence ministry said anti-submarine ships and planes had been tracking the Chinese submarine since January 10.

China’s nuclear attack submarine has been in service since 2006, carrying out missions in the Indian Ocean and Western Pacific. Two of the submarines, type 093, were built in the 2000s, and at least two more – the upgraded type 093A – were commissioned in 2016, according to a report to the US Congress in 2017.

Japan did not say whether the submarine spotted near its waters was one of the earlier vessels or the upgrade, but experts say it was the newer type. That submarine is believed to have a vertical launch system for anti-ship YJ-18 cruise missiles, and was expected to be on par with the United States’ Los Angeles-class submarines – or at least much quieter than its notoriously noisy predecessor, the type 091 Han-class.

“This is such a shame for the navy,” said a Beijing-based military source, who requested anonymity, adding that the vessel was detected because it was “too noisy”.

The incident has also shown the strong anti-submarine capabilities of Japan, which has the technological backing of the US military, according to military commentator Zhou Chenming in Beijing.

“It’s not so bad that they’ve been exposed, it could push the Chinese to work harder on making the submarines quieter,” Zhou said. “As a strong military power China should be confident enough not to cover up its weaknesses and failures.”

Chinese nuclear attack submarine that raised flag in international waters may have been testing Japan’s patrol capabilities

It is also unusual that a nuclear submarine – which could stay underwater for months – surfaced in front of another navy, given that they usually strive to stay unseen and undetected.

“Once a submarine has been exposed and its unique acoustics have been recorded, it puts them at a great disadvantage,” said Li Jie, a researcher at the Naval Military Studies Research Institute in Beijing.

In 2004, a type 091 Han-class nuclear submarine was detected as it trespassed in Japanese territorial waters near the recent incident. But it remained submerged until it returned to Chinese waters, despite being chased by Japanese ships and planes dropping sonobuoys, which pick up underwater sounds and transmit them.

Macau-based military expert Antony Wong Dong believed the nuclear attack submarine was forced to surface, and said it was “dumb” of the Chinese navy to allow its features to be seen and photographed.

He also dismissed claims that the submarine was flying a Chinese flag to assert its claim to sovereignty over the Diaoyus, noting that it surfaced in international waters.


http://www.defencenews.in/article/C...are-way-too-easy-to-Detect-and-Destroy-526085


----------



## UKBengali

@Chinese-Dragon 
@ChineseTiger1986 

Before Indians get too excited, we need to know whether it was the earlier Type-093 SSN or the newer Type-093G SSN which is much quieter.
Even if it was the latter, China is putting the finishing touches to it's new Type-095 SSN that has a revolutionary propulsion system and will be one of the quietest, if not the quietest, nuclear submarine in the world.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Beast

_"Some military experts believe the vessel was forced to surface, but others say there is not enough information to back up that theory."

“This is such a shame for the navy,” said a Beijing-based military source, who requested anonymity, adding that the vessel was detected because it was “too noisy”.
_

LOL.. The Chinese SSN purposely emerged itself and fly flag to exert sovereignty and see how hater claim its being detected and spin as easily detected?

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> @Chinese-Dragon
> @ChineseTiger1986
> 
> Before Indians get too excited, we need to know whether it was the earlier Type-093 SSN or the newer Type-093G SSN which is much quieter.
> Even if it was the latter, China is putting the finishing touches to it's new Type-095 SSN that has a revolutionary propulsion system and will be one of the quietest, if not the quietest, nuclear submarine in the world.



The Type 093B is equivalent to the Virginia class, while the Type 095 is arguably superior to both Seawolf and Virginia.

Since China's official media has already confirmed it, and I won't take the words from the anti-China bashers seriously.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Beast

UKBengali said:


> @Chinese-Dragon
> @ChineseTiger1986
> 
> Before Indians get too excited, we need to know whether it was the earlier Type-093 SSN or the newer Type-093G SSN which is much quieter.
> Even if it was the latter, China is putting the finishing touches to it's new Type-095 SSN that has a revolutionary propulsion system and will be one of the quietest, if not the quietest, nuclear submarine in the world.


It does not matter. The submariner purposely emerged itself to show flag and was spinned as followed and detected by fake news.

Let me show you all the real article to prove all these haters wrong...

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...k-sub-japans-defense-chief-says/#.Wm3mQ66WbIU








Maybe hater will claim the Chinese sub showing flag is trying to surrender itself? Haters has no limit to their imagination.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Notice these kind of articles always use 'anonymous' sources.

They make up a bull shit line and back it up with anonymity.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Beast

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Notice these kind of articles always use 'anonymous' sources.
> 
> They make up a bull shit line and back it up with anonymity.


Precisely. Only idiot will post such article here and try to convince others with such garbage.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Deino

*A plain stupid thread and even more since there is already one on PLAN submarines.*


----------



## Figaro

*何琳：他让中国潜艇静悄悄*
2018-03-05 00:00:00来源: 科技日报 作者: 本报记者 孙玉松

两会新人新气象

“我最大心愿就是努力做好潜艇噪音控制，把我们的潜艇‘藏起来’。”3月4日下午，结束了一天的小组讨论后，新任全国政协委员、中国工程院院士何琳对记者说道。

“今天，中国特色社会主义进入新时代，国防和军队建设也进入了新时代。依托军民融合战略发展，未来我国海军装备，尤其是核潜艇等战略武器也将迎来快速发展的新时代。”作为一名来自军队的委员，何琳如今更加关注军民融合发展，他透露，“我们正在实施技术攻关，预计到2025年左右，中国的核潜艇噪音将大幅度地降低，性能也将达到世界一流水平。”

大洋之中，凭借良好的隐蔽性，潜艇能出其不意消灭对手，被称为神出鬼没的“水下杀手”。但是，潜艇也有致命的弱点——噪声。

“被发现就等于被消灭。”何琳说道，经过深入细致调研，他暗下决心，瞄准潜艇的这一软肋，对舰艇隔振技术展开攻关。

刚过花甲之年，何琳却与潜艇降噪打交道35年了。他充分发挥力学知识功底，经过不懈的试验攻关，终于成功研制出了某型隔振装置。该隔振装置在舰艇发电机上试装之后，设备振动与艇体“绝缘”了。从此，潜艇兵们再也不用为难以入睡而发愁。

一个问题解决了，另一个难题接踵而来。潜艇的机械噪音还是可以沿着连接在机械设备上的各种管道向外传递。为了消除沿管道传递的振动噪声，潜艇上需要使用一种特殊的平衡式挠性接管。

多年来，国内只能采用一种落后笨重的管接头来替代，既没有降噪效果，又存在严重的安全隐患。欲从发达国家进口该产品，又遭到拒绝。面对困境，何琳义无反顾：“我们自己动手研发。”

几年间，何琳带领团队陆续开发出5种类型数百种规格的高性能挠性软管，为海军战斗力建设作出了重大贡献。他的工作被评价为“给国内减振技术领域带来了一次革命”。

就在大家认为他站到了隔振技术的制高点时，何琳再一次出发，经过3年多努力，带领课题组成员又攻克了多项重大技术难题。中国的潜艇从此“静悄悄”，变得更加神出鬼没。

（科技日报北京3月4日电）


(Bing Translate)
The head of vibration and noise Research Institute, PLA Naval Process University, China Process Academy and what Lin said in the interview "We are now breaking through the technology. The noise of China's nuclear submarine is drastically reduced in 2025, and its performance reaches world class."
http://www.stdaily.com/kjrb/kjrbbm/...m/kjrb/kjrbbm/2018-03/05/content_643644.shtml

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## JSCh

新浪军事 
3月26日 15:02 来自 微博 weibo.com
#读图#【再也不怕缠海带！中国无轴泵推技术成熟应用新型核潜艇】近日，央视在介绍未来国产非核动力航母将采用电磁弹射系统的话题时，突然话锋一转，称来自中国海军的好消息：中国海军已经接收了一艘新型核潜艇，该艇研制历时5年时间，采用了无轴泵推，且是比当今主流泵喷推进器更先进的无轴式结构。

*Sina Military
March 26 at 15:02 From Weibo,*
Recently, when CCTV introduced the subject of future non-nuclear-powered domestic aircraft carriers that will use electromagnetic catapult systems, it suddenly change subject and declared a good news from the Chinese Navy: The Chinese Navy has already received a new type of nuclear submarine. The development of this boat lasted for five years. It adopts shaftless pumpjet and is more advance than today's mainstream pumpjet propellers.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Akasa

The following article from 719 Institute seems to suggest that work on the next-generation PLAN submarine(s) has started. Can somebody provide a translated summary?



> 【贯彻落实新时代中船重工高质量发展战略纲要】七一九所：这一场变革不容易
> 
> “这一整节车厢快被我们的人包了”。
> 
> 这是今年2月28日，中船重工七一九所一位科研人员在微信工作群里的留言。那一天，飞驰的G1290动车载着七一九所人，赶赴离家千里之外的建造厂，开始厂所融合设计的新征程。
> 
> 就在半年前，由七一九所冷文军总师带队，这支60余名精兵强将组成的设计队伍，雄赳赳开赴配建现场，打了一场艰难而又漂亮的硬仗：平均每天发放90份包含大量结构、设备或管路的三维数据包。
> 
> 60多人，90份三维数据包！这相当于每人平均每天要画1.5张图纸，而在过去，同样一张图纸要耗时1～2周。况且，这些经过精准计算、精细设计的数据包，其设计内涵远超过以往数张施工设计蓝图。
> 
> 那一场硬仗打了80多天。60多人通过“5+2”、“白+黑”奋战，完成了63000余道审签工序，向工厂发放7000余份经过精确计算、精细设计、精准定位的三维数据包，顺利完成了某产品的设计数据发放任务。这是一个让人惊叹的记录，比以往型号的施工设计供图整整快了一年！
> 
> 一年啊，对等不起的工程任务来说，是何其珍贵的12个月！
> 
> 当七一九所科研人员点击最后一份数据包“归档”按钮时，在场的年轻人无不高声欢呼，不少人眼里饱含泪花。那一瞬间，数年奋斗历程中难忘的点点滴滴都在眼前浮现：有的科研人员奋战至午夜双目干涩仍不肯下机；有科研人员痛失至亲却回家短短三天就又归队参战；还有刘义成副总师，年过五旬还亲手翻译3000余页资料；冷文军总师无数次如琢如磨研究问题至深夜……
> 
> 一切努力，都是为了一场叫“全三维设计”的设计模式变革；赢回的时间，离不开那场叫“全三维设计”的设计模式变革。
> 
> “全三维设计”有很多种含义。一是全过程，从方案论证阶段开始进行三维设计，不再是以往型号二维设计为主、三维设计进行空间校核的模式，可开展各阶段的总体平衡。二是全要素，不仅关注总布置设计，还要解决集成优化、声学、维修性、人因工程等诸多要素的集成设计与验证问题。三是全寿期，不仅立足于总体设计，还要解决可生产性检查、生产设计融合、工装对接、虚拟建造、数据交换等上下游问题。
> 
> 多年来，七一九所采用二维图样为主、三维校核为辅、串行设计与发放的设计方式。这种设计方式存在显性化、精细化不够、总体综合平衡深度不足、并行设计难以开展等问题，难以支撑高精尖装备的研制。七一九所人意识到，要提高设计质量和效率，满足研制新时代一流装备的需要，唯有从研制方式上入手排除万难进行变革，才能不辱使命，完成党和国家的重托。
> 
> 变革从来就不会一帆风顺。七一九所推行全三维设计面临种种难题。一是没有体系，需要全面开展三维数字化定义体系和管理体系研究、设计方法和标准研究、设计环境和数据管理系统研究等。二是没有先例，行业惯例要打破，研制模型要重新建立，思想认识要逐步统一，尤其是习惯成自然的二维图样管理制度，碰到三维设计条件下如何融合工厂工艺设计、如何实现数据全息传递、如何数字化检验等，都变成了令人望而生畏的问题。三是没有时间，型号研制进度紧迫，他们相当于一边“造飞机”一边还要“开飞机”赶进度，大量繁杂的研究工作已使七一九所科研人员高负荷运转，如今还要领先一步建立全三维数字化设计体系，不容人有半点喘息机会……
> 
> “这是一条正确的必由之路，为了推动我国舰船事业高质量发展，再难我们也要做。”七一九所邱志强副所长志坚如磐。
> 
> “我们要在短时间走完先进国家几十年走过的路。”翁震平所长在一次大会战动员会上深情地说。他还亲自用科学家的严谨，带着行政线、技术线对这一场革命进行了高度概括，凝练成“2+2+1”理念。
> 
> 对，他们为之持之以恒奋斗的就是“2+2+1”！这凝结了七一九所几十年工程型号研制智慧，也昭示了未来的高质量发展理念。第一个2是基础，即基于三维数字样船的定量计算仿真、基于实船背景严格的集成试验验证。第二个2是方法，即采用功能性能与隐身、六性、可生产性等多质量特性相融合的设计方法，采用全三维设计、多专业并行、厂所融合的设计方法。第三个1是目标，实现深入到系统、设备、零部件的总体设计量化精准的目标。
> 
> 按照“2+2+1”理念指导，七一九所举全之力，体系化地开展了大量技术研究和开发工作，贯通了全三维设计途径。利用这些研究成果全面开展的型号精细化设计，“步步为营”，环环相扣，经过规划设计、完整性设计、综合平衡、多特性校核、可生产性平衡、试验验证、数字样机评审等迭代设计活动，直到达到用户提出的“精品工程”要求。
> 
> 结果令人欣慰！这一场全所未有的设计模式变革，推动了跨专业、跨部门跨厂所的并行协同设计，最终构建了面向建造、覆盖全船各功能系统的数字样船：各系统和部件采用三维数字化模型进行装配、检查和协调，实现了大型船舶100%的三维建模和100%精确定位的多专业并行协同产品数字化定义。七一九所在收获“国防科技工业信息化推进工作优秀单位”等荣誉称号的同时，也得到了用户的高度赞誉，称其为船舶行业的“革命性和引领性突破”。集团公司领导也充分肯定了这一场变革带来的成效——“第一次在船舶行业看到了全三维数字样机”。
> 
> 如今，七一九所建设了多个虚拟现实厅，有全船级的演示大厅，也有工作组级的协调小厅。在这些虚拟现实厅里，你可以看到这样一副生动妙曼的场景：设计人员正戴着导航头盔，在沉浸式虚拟现实场景中“漫游”；通过手中的手柄，他们可以多人同时“抵达”船内任何地方，对照模拟实物讨论设计方案，检查设计结果；他们可以与受邀来的建造厂技术人员、军方代表一道，共同评估可生产性、体验操作……
> 
> 这样一幅高度融合的图像里，写满了七一九所人矢志不渝打造高质量产品的担当精神、创新勇气和实践智慧。



Some people think that this indicates that only the 09V has begun construction, with others claim that both 09V and 09VI have begun construction; what do you folks think?

Source of original article: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/crSXJIVym4hs00adKi0Kcw

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

Akasa said:


> The following article from 719 Institute seems to suggest that work on the next-generation PLAN submarine(s) has started. Can somebody provide a translated summary?
> 
> 
> 
> Some people think that this indicates that only the 09V has begun construction, with others claim that both 09V and 09VI have begun construction; what do you folks think?
> 
> Source of original article: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/crSXJIVym4hs00adKi0Kcw


Logically speaking, they should be almost concurrent. This was what happened with the 093 and 094 ...


----------



## Akasa

Figaro said:


> Logically speaking, they should be almost concurrent. This was what happened with the 093 and 094 ...



Wasn't 094 launched a few years after 093, though?


----------



## LKJ86

039B demagnetized

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## UserUnknown2025

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 468265
> View attachment 468266
> View attachment 468267
> View attachment 468268
> View attachment 468269
> View attachment 468270
> View attachment 468271
> View attachment 468272


Are these 093As?


----------



## LKJ86

UserUnknown2025 said:


> Are these 093As?


No, they are all diesel-electric submarines.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

UserUnknown2025 said:


> Are these 093As?


Those are all 039B's dude ... *at least the last couple*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## yusheng

http://www.navalanalyses.com/2018/04/infographics-31-peoples-liberation-army.html

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## UserUnknown2025

yusheng said:


> http://www.navalanalyses.com/2018/04/infographics-31-peoples-liberation-army.html
> 
> View attachment 468679


There are two 095s in service??!
How the f*** did the US find out?


----------



## wulff

Last year we had some info come out on Chinese small nuclear reactors of 5 MW, 10 MW and higher. But has there been anything out on the small nuclear submarine?


----------



## JSCh



Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
1 | Like Like:
13


----------



## samsara

JSCh said:


>


This SDF user is non-ethical, a repeated offender, “hijacking” pics posted here without giving the due credit! An improper practice.

Posted at (((SDF))) “PLAN breaking news, pics, & videos” on 2018.04.24, time is that board's time zone.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Figaro

samsara said:


> This SDF user is non-ethical, a repeated offender, “hijacking” pics posted here without giving the due credit! An improper practice.
> 
> Posted at (((SDF))) “PLAN breaking news, pics, & videos” on 2018.04.24, time is that board's time zone.
> View attachment 469094


Well, to be fair, he might not have gotten that image from PDF. But even if he did, that poster probably wouldn’t credit PDF as he calls it a “fanboy forum”


----------



## Dante80

samsara said:


> This SDF user is non-ethical, a repeated offender, “hijacking” pics posted here without giving the due credit! An improper practice.



You cannot and do not give credit to secondary source attribution (a non press source posting an image that he/she has no copyright claim on). You do give credit to the original source. In this case, I think this was an officially released photo.

It is possible (and maybe probable) that a user that has access to both forums may re-post non-original content from one to the other. *What matters is the content itself though*, and whether said content is properly attributed (at most times, source info is embedded inside the images posted, as in this example). There is really nothing wrong with that. The image comes from the official PLAN microblog they launched some time ago, and was publicly released .

Primary source: http://t.people.com.cn/planavy

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

Figaro said:


> Well, to be fair, he might not have gotten that image from PDF. But even if he did, that poster probably wouldn’t credit PDF as he calls it a “fanboy forum”


I have thought about that possibility, but it's weird that he just posted those questionable stuffs AFTER some users posted here. You may wish to check his other post on those interesting batch of pictures of Liaoning showing the under deck etc posted by @LKJ86. Again, this kind of practice is not new to that user. Only now I intend to highlight such cases, previously I just ignored it. Since you are there, you may also track such practice of his. And those stuffs were not something posted in twitter. I'll keep on highlighting such practice here by every user there whenever I spot such nonethical practice. I read here first then I read there as free reader, so I can spot easily if anything of particular interest being duplicated without the due credit! Indeed not only pics, also exclusive information posted here is also repeated there as if the poster get it from nowhere, just like the case of 055 #2 launch speculation by other diligent poster there, quoted @cirr rhetorical post. I can see user such as Hendrik_2000 plays by forum rules giving the credit where it's due each time.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## samsara

Figaro said:


> Is Hendrix2000 a user at PDF?


Of course, only I think he no longer actively engages in PDF as of a couple of years ago.



Dante80 said:


> You cannot and do not give credit to secondary source attribution (a non press source posting an image that he/she has no copyright claim on). You do give credit to the original source. In this case, I think this was an officially released photo.
> 
> It is possible (and maybe probable) that a user that has access to both forums may re-post non-original content from one to the other. *What matters is the content itself though*, and whether said content is properly attributed (at most times, source info is embedded inside the images posted, as in this example). There is really nothing wrong with that. The image comes from the official PLAN microblog they launched some time ago, and was publicly released .
> 
> Primary source: http://t.people.com.cn/planavy


I don't agree with your opinion that a user or even a free reader of multiple forums is okay to freely transfer the materials from one forum to the other without giving credit to the original poster in that related forum... A kind of free rider! Your opinion may be more suitable for the academic publication or journal or the press in general.
But let's see if those diligent, affected posters here do agree with your opinion 
The other solution I'll suggest the concerned posters here who post significant pictures to put some subtle yet distinctive watermark in some select pictures, not necessary all, just the most prominent ones within a batch to save time. Then let's see the funny effect  Anyhow it's showing the quality of plagiarism, which is surely not reflecting a commendable quality of any forum!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Deino

samsara said:


> This SDF user is non-ethical, a repeated offender, “hijacking” pics posted here without giving the due credit! An improper practice.
> 
> Posted at (((SDF))) “PLAN breaking news, pics, & videos” on 2018.04.24, time is that board's time zone.
> View attachment 469094




To admit I beg you to be careful: I know by78 quite well since years and to admit he's the least one hanging around here at the PDF (at least no longer), since he does not rate this forum very high.

Quite to the contrary he's almost famous at the SDF for most often posting high quality images even before they were posted here. So in conclusion I would swear for him that he found that image at the original source.

Also - and again - why should anyone quote any third, fourth or so on grade source like PDF if the original source is well known??
To expect that anyone tries to find out where an image was posted before is simply impossible and by the way - with all due respect to Cirr, LKJ86 and others, do they always give credit and quote the original source??
Or are these image made by themselves?

Best,
Deino


PS: and by the way not wanting to nit-pick, You yourself just posted an image at the 055 thread with the explanations just a few minutes ago 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/type-055-ddg-news-discussions.307231/page-79#post-10442337

... which was posted exactly at the SDF already yesterday by A.Man without giving credit to him.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/type-055-ddg-large-destroyer-thread.t6480/page-543

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

Deino said:


> To admit I beg you to be careful: I know by78 quite well since years and to admit he's the least one hanging around here at the PDF (at least no longer), since he does not rate this forum very high.
> 
> Quite to the contrary he's almost famous at the SDF for most often posting high quality images even before they were posted here. So in conclusion I would swear for him that he found that image at the original source.
> 
> Also - and again - why should anyone quote any third, fourth or so on grade source like PDF if the original source is well known??
> To expect that anyone tries to find out where an image was posted before is simply impossible and by the way - with all due respect to Cirr, LKJ86 and others, do they always give credit and quote the original source??
> Or are these image made by themselves?
> 
> Best,
> Deino
> 
> 
> PS: and by the way not wanting to nit-pick, You yourself just posted an image at the 055 thread with the explanations just a few minutes ago
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/type-055-ddg-news-discussions.307231/page-79#post-10442337
> 
> ... which was posted exactly at the SDF already yesterday by A.Man without giving credit to him.
> 
> https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/type-055-ddg-large-destroyer-thread.t6480/page-543


My earlier reply is here so I won't repeat it again:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/type-055-ddg-news-discussions.307231/page-79#post-10443055

I have thought it over, this kind of "free transfer" of pics and info from PDF to SDF are conducted by some members there because they are TOO PROUD to admit that they obtain such info from the fan-boy or not-so-high quality forum as PDF 

Keep on watching the timestamp of some particular hot info made available here vs there, just conclude on your own then. Just pay attention to the posters and the corresponding time. I can wait for deferring the conclusion while keep on watching....


----------



## 星海军事

Akasa said:


> It was first reported by an official news channel, but it's suspected to be related to the Type 09IIIB rather than the Type 09V that everybody had initially suspected.
> 
> So, as of now, the PLAN has three variants of the Type 09III: the original 09III version, the Type 09IIIA (shown in the parade), and the Type 09IIIB with VLS.



Sorry, I don't see the causality. The mentioned "new nuclear submarine" was actually completed in "the past five years since the 18th National Congress of the CPC" (2012-2017).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> Sorry, I don't see the causality. The mentioned "new nuclear submarine" was actually completed in "the past five years since the 18th National Congress of the CPC" (2012-2017).



It was mentioned that the sub belonged to a new class of boats, which roughly corresponds to the 09IIIB since that happens to be the only new submarine variant that was spotted in the 2012-2017 time frame.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 星海军事

Akasa said:


> It was mentioned that the sub belonged to a new class of boats, which roughly corresponds to the 09IIIB since that happens to be the only new submarine variant that was spotted in the 2012-2017 time frame.


I suppose you mean 09IIIA?



> Since 2002, the PLAN has constructed ten nuclear submarines—two SHANG I-class SSNs (Type 093), four SHANG II-class SSNs (Type 093A), and four JIN-class SSBNs (Type 094)
> -- Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China 2017​


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> I suppose you mean 09IIIA?



There is no 09IIIB with VLS?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 星海军事

Akasa said:


> There is no 09IIIB with VLS?
> 
> View attachment 470489


No, but there will be.


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Nahid

Gyes, what is the best submarin available for export? speacialy for Bangladesh Navy...........


----------



## leapx

Nahid said:


> Gyes, what is the best submarin available for export? speacialy for Bangladesh Navy...........


your answer may be found on page 42

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86

Djibouti

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## LKJ86

The introduction of 094A: http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/http_www.kjrb.com/kjrb/html/2018-04/18/content_392556.htm
12* JL-2A with the range above 10500km

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## 星海军事

LKJ86 said:


> The introduction of 094A: http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/http_www.kjrb.com/kjrb/html/2018-04/18/content_392556.htm
> 12* JL-2A with the range above 10500km



Rather than telling nonsense, these "commentators" do really need to stay away from the fields they don't even understand.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

星海军事 said:


> Rather than telling nonsense, these "commentators" do really need to stay away from the fields they don't even understand.


Could you point out the specific "nonsense" in this article . Esp since you understanding is much better than that of the author?


----------



## 星海军事

Figaro said:


> Could you point out the specific "nonsense" in this article . Esp since you understanding is much better than that of the author?





> 中国海军新型战略核潜艇改进艇094A型首次公开亮相了。


Problem implied: What is the SSBN with a new look?
Normal way of thinking: It is a modified old SSBN since the total number of 094s remains the same in the past few years.
The "commentator": It is a new model because it looks different.



> 094A型采用了全新设计的指挥塔围壳，没有舷窗且带填角和圆弧过渡。对此，军事评论员程硕人表示，“从外形上看，094A型核潜艇加高了‘龟背’……‘龟背’区域噪声值有所提高……通过加高导弹装载/发射舱……携带射程不少于10500公里的‘巨浪-2A’型潜射核导弹。”


Problem implied: Why does the SSBN have a new sail?
Normal way of thinking: The sail was streamlined to reduce low frequency noise.
The "commentator": The height of the "hump" was increased to compensate for larger SLBMs(so that the submarine will be even farther away from the goal of high speed, high silentness and high maneuverability).



> 094A型可以不用再像094基本型那样，必须前出至太平洋中部海域，才能拥有有效威慑能力。


Problem implied: How to extend the operational range of JL-2?
Normal ways of thinking: miniaturizing warhead/modifying upper stage configuration/increasing mass ratio/raising propellant specific impulse
The "commentator": lengthening the JL-2(so that the missile will be no longer suitable for 094)

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/5498220176/4248748190285641

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 帅的一匹

Type 93b SSN

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/YJs687zaI2Sx0yKFeRnB4Q

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

@wanglaokan @Deino

Video: http://tv.cctv.com/v/v1/VIDEccKtROVKog8AqKMYL6ll180614.html

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## cirr

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 480355
> View attachment 480356
> View attachment 480357
> View attachment 480358
> 
> 
> @wanglaokan @Deino
> 
> Video: http://tv.cctv.com/v/v1/VIDEccKtROVKog8AqKMYL6ll180614.html



This is further confirmation that new nuclear subs are on their way. 

Let's mass-produce type 095s 096s 097s 098s....

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## wulff

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 480355
> View attachment 480356
> View attachment 480357
> View attachment 480358
> 
> 
> @wanglaokan @Deino




Are we certain these arent photoshopped? Seems the sub in the second pic seems to have a hump very different from the sub in the first pic. Or is that just me?


----------



## LKJ86

wulff said:


> Are we certain these arent photoshopped? Seems the sub in the second pic seems to have a hump very different from the sub in the first pic. Or is that just me?


Maybe two different ones.
There is a video.


----------



## LKJ86

Video:https://m.weibo.cn/2280198017/4251216986661850

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

YJ-18 and Yu-10 (?)...

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## IblinI

Truely awsome, cant wait for the Type 095.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

PLANS SSN 419









Interesting...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

YJ-18

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Zarvan

YJ 18 can be fired through Torpedo tubes

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## wulff

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 481128


A translation would be helpful here


----------



## LKJ86

Interesting...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## cirr

Recently commissioned

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## LKJ86

Yu-6

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## JSCh



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

A rare look: China's first air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarine unit conducts training at sea.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1011604377839079424This tweet by the Xinhua News on 2018-06-26 8:37 pm contains a footage of 91 seconds of the said AIP-equipped sub in drill.

On a side note, just recently I peeped into a TV series released in the 2017 highlighting the life and challenges faced by the Chinese Navy personnels incl. the submarine ones: _The Deepwater Forces _深海利剑（Shenhai Lijian), the protagonist actress is so beautiful, Liu Lu 刘璐  very lovely, herself was born in a military family. I just learned about this actress from this series! Find the series at YT and other movie sites. I may spend some time to watch the whole series when I can find time for that (36 episodes, unfortunately no Engsub available)

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## JSCh

*China’s first AIP submarine unit breaks records*
(People's Daily Online) 17:32, July 04, 2018






China’s first submarine unit using air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology recently broke a number of records set by the Chinese navy, Science and Technology Daily recently reported.

Records such as the longest sailing distance, maximum submergence depth and sinking target ships under boundary conditions were all broken by the unit.

Military commentator Zhang Haixiong disclosed that submarines equipped with AIP technology prolong operation duration underwater to about two or three weeks, indicating the increasing stealth of the submarines.

The time a conventionally powered submarine can spend underwater ranges from 10 to 100 hours, as they need to surface regularly to charge. However, submarines can be charged underwater if they are equipped with the AIP system.

Zhang noted that AIP submarines, with higher combat effectiveness, are second only to nuclear submarines, adding that although AIP submarines are more expensive right now, in the future they will become the conventional option.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Grandy

*China military developing unmanned AI submarines to launch a new era of sea power*
Robotic subs, expected in the 2020s, could challenge the advantage Western naval powers have in strategic waters like the South China Sea

PUBLISHED : Sunday, 22 July, 2018, 11:03pm
UPDATED : Sunday, 22 July, 2018, 11:22pm






China is developing large, smart and relatively low-cost unmanned submarines that can roam the world’s oceans to perform a wide range of missions, from reconnaissance to mine placement to even suicide attacks against enemy vessels, according to scientists involved in these artificial intelligence (AI) projects.

The autonomous robotic submarines are expected to be deployed in the early 2020s. While not intended to entirely replace human-operated submarines, they will challenge the advantageous position established by Western naval powers after the second world war. The robotic subs are aimed particularly at the United States forces in strategic waters like the South China Sea and western Pacific Ocean, the researchers said.

The project is part of the government's ambitious plan to boost the country's naval power with AI technology. China has built the world's largest testing facility for surface drone boats in Zhuhai, Guangdong province. Military researchers are also developing an AI-assisted support system for submarine commanders. As the _South China Morning Post_ reported earlier this year, that system will help captains make faster, more accurate judgments in the heat of combat situations.

The new class of unmanned submarines will join the other autonomous or manned military systems on water, land and orbit to carry out missions in coordinated efforts, according to the researchers.

The submarines will have no human operators on board. They will go out, handle their assignments and return to base on their own. They may establish contact with the ground command periodically for updates, but are by design capable of completing missions without human intervention.





Type 039A diesel electric submarine (pictured). Photo: Handout

But the researchers also noted that AI subs had limits, especially at the early stages of deployment. They will start with relatively simple tasks. The purpose of these projects is not to replace human crews entirely. To attack or not to attack, the final decision will still be in the hands of commanders, the researchers said.

Current models of unmanned underwater vehicles, or UUVs, are mostly small. Their deployment and recovery require another ship or submarine. They are limited in operational range and payload capacity.

Now under development, the AI-powered subs are “giants” compared to the normal UUVs, according to the researchers. They station in dock as conventional submarines. Their cargo bay is reconfigurable and large enough to accommodate a wide range of freight, from powerful surveillance equipment to missiles or torpedoes. Their energy supply comes from diesel-electric engines or other power sources that ensure continuous operation for months.

The robotic submarines rely heavily on artificial intelligence to deal with the sea’s complex environment. They must make decisions constantly on their own: changing course and depth to avoid detection; distinguishing civilian from military vessels; choosing the best approach to reach a designated position.

They can gather intelligence, deploy mines or station themselves at geographical “chockpoints” where armed forces are bound to pass to ambush enemy targets. They can work with manned submarines as a scout or decoy to draw fire and expose the position of the adversary. If necessary, they can ram into a high-value target.

Lin Yang, marine technology equipment director at the Shenyang Institute of Automation, Chinese Academy of Sciences, confirmed to the _South China Morning Post_ this month that China is developing a series of extra-large unmanned underwater vehicles, or XLUUVs.

“Yes, we are doing it,” he said.

The institute, in China’s northeast Liaoning province, is a major producer of underwater robots to the Chinese military. Lin developed China’s first autonomous underwater vehicle with operational depth beyond 6km. He is now chief scientist of the 912 Project, a classified programme to develop new-generation military underwater robots in time for the 100-year anniversary of the Chinese Communist Party in 2021.

Lin called China’s unmanned submarine programme a countermeasure against similar weapons now under intensive development in the United States. He declined to elaborate on technical specifications because the information was “sensitive”.

“It will be announced sooner or later, but not now,” he added.

The US military last year made a deal with major defence contractors for two prototype XLUUVs by 2020. The US Navy would choose one prototype for the production of nine vehicles.

Lockheed Martin’s Orca system would station in an area of operation with the ability to establish communication to base from time to time. It would return home after deploying payloads, according to the company’s website.

“A critical benefit of Orca is that Navy personnel launch, recover, operate, and communicate with the vehicle from a home base and are never placed in harm’s way,” the company said in a statement announcing the system.

Technical details on Orca, like its size or operational endurance, are not available. The company did not respond to the _Post’s_ queries.

Boeing is developing the other prototype, basing it on its Echo Voyager, a 50-ton autonomous submarine first developed for commercial uses like the mapping of the sea floor.

The Echo Voyager is more than 15 metres long and 2.6 metres in diameter, according to Boeing. It can operate for months over a range of 12,000km, more than enough to sail from San Francisco to Shanghai. Its maximum speed reaches 15km an hour.

The vessel needs to surface periodically as its batteries need to be recharged by air-breathing diesel engines. It can dive to 3km while carrying up to eight tons of cargo, Boeing said.

Russia has reportedly built a large underwater drone capable to carry a nuclear weapon. The Status-6 autonomous torpedo could cruise across large distances between continents at high speed and deliver a 100-megaton warhead, according to news accounts.

The Chinese unmanned submarine would not be nuclear-armed, according to a researcher involved in a separate programme in China.

The main advantage of the AI subs is that they can be produced and operated on a large scale at a relatively low cost, said the researcher, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

Traditional submarines must attain a high level of stealth to increase the chance of survival. The design has to consider other things including safety, comfort and the mental health of the crew to ensure human safety. All these elements add costs.

In the 1990s, an Ohio-class submarine for the US Navy cost US$2 billion. The research, development and purchase of the first 12 of its new Columbia-class submarines, scheduled for delivery in the early 2020s, is more than US$120 billion.

In contrast, the budget of the entire Orca programme is about US$40 million, according to Lockheed Martin.

An AI sub “can be instructed to take down a nuclear-powered submarine or other high-value targets. It can even perform a kamikaze strike,” said the researcher, referring to the suicide attacks some Japanese fighter pilots made in the second world war.

“The AI has no soul. It is perfect for this kind of job,” the researcher added.

Luo Yuesheng, professor at the College of Automation in Harbin Engineering University, a major development centre for China’s new submarines, contended that AI subs would put the human captains of other vessels under enormous pressure in battle.

It is not just that the AI subs are fearless, Luo said, but that they could learn from the sinking of other AI vessels and adjust their strategy continuously. An unmanned submarine trained to be familiar to a specific water “will be a formidable opponent”, he said.

AI submarines are still at an early stage, Luo noted, and many technical and engineering hurdles remain before they can be deployed in open water.

Hardware on board, for instance, must meet high standards of quality and reliability, since no mechanics will be on board to fix a broken engine, repair leaking pipes or tighten a screw, he said.

The missions of unmanned submarines will also likely be limited to specific, relatively simple tasks, Luo said.

“AI will not replace humans. The situation under water can get quite sophisticated. I don’t think a robot can understand or handle all the challenges,” he added.

_This article appeared in the South China Morning Post print edition as: race is on to develop unmanned submarine_

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## JSCh

The following globaltimes report obviously refer to the report on top ^^^^

Well, SCMP, especially Stephen Chen, has been known to frequently report on Chinese science and technology. And always from a military angle with overblown exaggeration on capabilities and threat.

Unless China has solve the problem of long distance underwater high speed communications, otherwise I do not think the current development state of AI is smart enough to handle the type of mission that the SCMP report described. 

==========
*Report on China's unmanned submarines overblown, confrontational: expert*
By Guo Yuandan and Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2018/7/23 23:23:40
*
Report on unmanned submarines ‘overblown’
*
A report that China is developing unmanned submarines to "challenge Western naval powers," was slammed by Chinese experts as overblown and confrontational.

China's large unmanned submarines will be able to perform missions including reconnaissance, mine placement and suicide attacks via artificial intelligence, the South China Morning Post reported on Sunday. 

They are expected to be deployed in the early 2020s, the Hong Kong-based newspaper said.

Many countries are developing unmanned submarines, and China is only one of them, a submarine expert, who asked not to be named, told the Global Times on Monday.

However, such a submarine - capable of carrying out multiple missions as the report suggested - does not exist as of yet, the expert noted, adding that even if one had reached the experimental phase, it was still far off deployment.

It is normal for China to develop such weapons to safeguard its sovereignty and territorial integrity. The development is not directed against any specific country, Zhang Junshe, a senior research fellow at the People's Liberation Army Naval Military Studies Research Institute, told the Global Times on Monday.

The South China Morning Post reported that China will use the unmanned submarines to challenge the advantageous position established by Western naval powers in strategic waters like the South China Sea and western Pacific Ocean.

The report echoed "rhetoric of the China threat theory" and was "trying to create a confrontational atmosphere between China and the US," Zhang said.

"The US is by far leading the world in the development of unmanned submarines, and so it is an exaggeration to say that China is challenging the advantageous position established by Western naval powers," he said.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## haidian

*China's Advanced Submarines Are 'Breaking Records'*
The People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has a sizable force of AIP boats that can be armed with advanced anti-ship cruise missiles.
July 26, 2018
by Dave Majumdar




While Russia is the most technologically sophisticated undersea warfare threat faced by the United States Navy, there is one area where the threat from Beijing exceeds the one posed by Moscow.

China has successfully developed and fielded diesel-electric submarines with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology, unlike Russia, which has thus far failed to develop a comparable analogue for its future Project 677 Lada-class vessels. Indeed, Beijing’s conventional AIP submarine units have been breaking their own records in recent months.

“China's first submarine unit using air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology recently broke a number of records set by the Chinese navy,” reported the People’s Liberation Army and Central Military Commission’s China Mil site, citing a report from the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology’s Science and Technology Daily in a recent posting.


“Records such as the longest sailing distance, maximum submergence depth and sinking target ships under boundary conditions were all broken by the unit.”

As the Pentagon’s 2017 report to Congress on the Chinese military notes, the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has a sizable force of AIP boats that can be armed with advanced anti-ship cruise missiles.

“China continues to commission advanced, anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM)-capable submarines,” the report notes .

“Since the mid-1990s, it has built 13 SONG-class SS units (Type 039) and 17 YUAN-class diesel-electric air-independent power attack submarines (SSP) (Type 039A), with a total of 20 YUANs projected for production by 2020.”

Beijing is well prepared to expand its submarine fleet and has built up its industrial capacity to grow its fleet rapidly.

“China’s shipbuilding industry appears capable of producing three Yuan-class submarines a year; two at Wuchang and a third at Jiangnan, if required,” reads a 2017 report from the International Institute for Strategic Studies .

“With the successful construction of at least 17 hulls, estimates of a total of 20 Yuan-class boats in service by 2020 seem to be entirely reasonable, offering the prospect of modest fleet expansion should the PLAN seek it. However, such expansion would require the training of additional crews, as well as keeping all of the remaining Ming-class hulls in service despite their age, high-noise levels and relative lack of capability.”

The Pentagon report takes the view that the Chinese submarine fleet will be expanding very rapidly in the coming years.

“The PLAN places a high priority on the modernization of its submarine force,” the report states.

“It currently possesses five nuclear-powered attack submarines (SSN), four nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBN), and 54 diesel-powered attack submarines (SS). By 2020, this force will likely grow to between 69 and 78 submarines.”

The IISS report takes a much more measured view, stating instead that the Chinese submarine fleet will improve qualitatively but it likely remain about the same size as today’s fleet.

“In light of the continuing presence of legacy submarine platforms in the fleet, the PLAN is likely to continue to use its submarine-production capacity to replace these older vessels in the near term,” the IISS report notes.

“This focus on improving quality rather than expanding quantity will limit the PLAN’s requirement for heavy investment in extra personnel and infrastructure, although the 72nd Flotilla’s Mings may need to be retained at Xiachuan Dao until its berths can be upgraded to accept newer submarine designs. Much like today, the operational fleet in 2020 is likely to be around 58 boats.”

The IISS assessment is likely closer to reality than the Pentagon’s. The Defense Department often grossly inflates threats in order to secure funding for its pet programs. In the case of the Chinese submarines fleet, the U.S. Navy has used its estimates of the sheer size of Beijing’s force to help justify to Congress why it needs many more Virginia-class attack submarines than its previously stated requirements even as the service acknowledged the relative technological backwardness of PLAN vessels. 

Indeed, the U.S. Navy has increased it stated requirement for attack submarines from 48 to 66 boats in recent years as demand has skyrocketed. It is true that the U.S. Navy needs more submarines, but that is due to a shrinking fleet that has meet the increasing global demands placed on the sea service than any threat from China by itself.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-advanced-submarines-are-breaking-records-26811

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## war&peace

Many underestimate the capabilities of a modern diesel electric submarine especially equipped with an AIP system.


----------



## GHALIB

getting ready for south china sea .


----------



## Deino

Come on guys ... first a new thread for a topic we already have and then pure political issues!

Stay on topic and better take care what and where you post.


----------



## JSCh

*Chinese Navy conducts submarine rescue drill in South China Sea*
CGTN
Published on Jul 29, 2018

Chinese Navy’s Nanhai Fleet has recently conducted a submarine rescue drill in the South China Sea. Participating units included the fleet’s submarine assistance force, a Navy aviation unit and a Navy medics department. The drill simulated a nuclear submarine accident in unfamiliar waters and the rescue team was tasked with searching for the missing submarine.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

JSCh said:


> *Chinese Navy conducts submarine rescue drill in South China Sea*
> CGTN
> Published on Jul 29, 2018
> 
> Chinese Navy’s Nanhai Fleet has recently conducted a submarine rescue drill in the South China Sea. Participating units included the fleet’s submarine assistance force, a Navy aviation unit and a Navy medics department. The drill simulated a nuclear submarine accident in unfamiliar waters and the rescue team was tasked with searching for the missing submarine.


An important drill remembering those fatal accidents involving the submarines from other navies. The most notable recent case this year was the missing of an ARG sub, lost for so many days that I thought all the crews were sadly gone eventually, though I didn't follow its news till the end. Then another notable case involved a RUS sub many years ago had accident in deep water, all crews were sadly gone too. Therefore PLAN should be well prepared for such contingency, has all the needed equipment to conduct such search and rescue tasks incl in the deep water... not just producing the subs without means to do effective submarine SAR operations! The Chinese should have been wiser seeing those fatal cases.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 490045
> View attachment 490046


*The CEO of the Chinese naval Group CSIC has visited the Bohai shipyard* in recent days, including the *new assembly halls of the nuclear submarines*. The military detachments of the Chinese navy seem to be there.

From Henri Kenhmann tweet below (01 Aug):

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1024674934482587649
Looking forward to learn the new assembly facility of Bohai shipyard to churn out many new submarines in years ahead. But again there may be just quiet news alias no news on this kind of under water asset. Unlike the surface combatants satellite image can hardly peep into this stuff 

Just dig some of my handy archives about the news/article on Bohai shipyard and the sub development 

Going by the latest "Eight-part Essay", the productions of both the next generation submarines of Type 095 SSN (nuclear-powered general-purpose attack submarine) and the Type 096 SSBN (nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine) are in full swing. Quantum leap in ALL that matter! (late April 2018)

Read it here:
【贯彻落实新时代中船重工高质量发展战略纲要】七一九所：这一场变革不容易 (2018-04-17)
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/crSXJIVym4hs00adKi0Kcw

And over one year ago, the coverage by the Eastern Arsenal/Popular Science:

China is building the world's largest nuclear submarine facility — Popular Science (April 2017)

GIANT FACTORY

When this enclosed submarine factory begins operation later this year, the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. (BSHIC) will be able to quickly build nuclear submarines. Assembling SSNs in a building also provides the advantage of sheltering against the weather, not to mention nosy spy satellites.

http://www.popsci.com/china-nuclear-submarine-facility#page-2

China's new submarine is poised to revolutionize underwater warfare (June 2017)
http://www.popsci.com/china-new-submarine-engine-revolutionize-underwater-warfare

“When 191 scientific researchers clicked on the “Archive” button of the last data package sent to the remote production facility, all the young people present cheered loudly, and many people had tears in their eyes. At that moment, the memorable bits and pieces of the course of several years of struggle have emerged in front of us: some researchers fought hard until the middle of the night with dried eyes and refused to disembark; some researchers lost their parents but returned home for just three days. Soon to return to the team to participate in the uphill battles; there are Liu Yicheng, the Deputy Chief also a good teacher himself, with over 50-year experiences also personally translated more than 3,000 pages of information; Leng Wenjun, master of numerous times, engaged in such grinding researches to solve the problems till the middle of the night...”

*Btw China's new nuclear-powered submarine project is highly classified, only quite limited info is made available! It's shrouded in big mystery! 
THUS QUIET NEWS! *

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## azesus

Can I ask stupid question from a ignorant guy? what their will capability equal to? Borei? Seawolf? Congratulations to their hard work effort.


----------



## Akasa

azesus said:


> Can I ask stupid question from a ignorant guy? what their will capability equal to? Borei? Seawolf? Congratulations to their hard work effort.



Skipjack class at best.


----------



## Figaro

azesus said:


> Can I ask stupid question from a ignorant guy? what their will capability equal to? Borei? Seawolf? Congratulations to their hard work effort.


I'll give you some recent quotes ... judge for yourself.

*719所所长翁震平：“我们要在短时间走完先进国家几十年走过的路。”*
Wang Zhenping, director of 719 Institute, said : "we have to walk the decades long road of advanced countries in a short period of time."

*海军工程大学院士何琳：预计到2025年左右，中国的核潜艇将达到世界一流水平。*
He Lin, an academician at the Naval Engineering University, predicts that China's nuclear submarines will reach world-class levels by 2025.

*中船重工：加快实现新型核潜艇攻关突破，为海军2025年实现走向深蓝远海的战略转型提供高质量武器装备。*
CSIC : Accelerate the breakthrough of the new nuclear submarine and provide high quality weapons and equipment for the Navy's strategic transformation to the deep blue and distant sea by 2025.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 星海军事

Figaro said:


> I'll give you some recent quotes ... judge for yourself.
> 
> *719所所长翁震平：“我们要在短时间走完先进国家几十年走过的路。”*
> Wang Zhenping, director of 719 Institute, said : "we have to walk the decades long road of advanced countries in a short period of time."
> 
> *海军工程大学院士何琳：预计到2025年左右，中国的核潜艇将达到世界一流水平。*
> He Lin, an academician at the Naval Engineering University, predicts that China's nuclear submarines will reach world-class levels by 2025.
> 
> *中船重工：加快实现新型核潜艇攻关突破，为海军2025年实现走向深蓝远海的战略转型提供高质量武器装备。*
> CSIC : Accelerate the breakthrough of the new nuclear submarine and provide high quality weapons and equipment for the Navy's strategic transformation to the deep blue and distant sea by 2025.



Are these from my summary?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ILC

Figaro said:


> I'll give you some recent quotes ... judge for yourself.
> 
> *719所所长翁震平：“我们要在短时间走完先进国家几十年走过的路。”*
> Wang Zhenping, director of 719 Institute, said : "we have to walk the decades long road of advanced countries in a short period of time."
> 
> *海军工程大学院士何琳：预计到2025年左右，中国的核潜艇将达到世界一流水平。*
> He Lin, an academician at the Naval Engineering University, predicts that China's nuclear submarines will reach world-class levels by 2025.
> 
> *中船重工：加快实现新型核潜艇攻关突破，为海军2025年实现走向深蓝远海的战略转型提供高质量武器装备。*
> CSIC : Accelerate the breakthrough of the new nuclear submarine and provide high quality weapons and equipment for the Navy's strategic transformation to the deep blue and distant sea by 2025.



That's interesting, I wonder if the meaning is that in 2025 the submarine in active service will reach the world class level, if yes than I believe type 09V reaching the level of early Virginia is reasonable, or not even better. 

Type 09V could be in active service by then.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

ILC said:


> That's interesting, I wonder if the meaning is that in 2025 the submarine in active service will reach the world class level, if yes than I believe type 09V reaching the level of early Virginia is reasonable, or not even better.
> 
> Type 09V could be in active service by then.


I think so ... they are clearly referring to the 09V and 09VI.


----------



## +1S

Akasa said:


> Skipjack class at best.



Arihant class at best .

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cirr



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86

3 SSBN and 2 SSN in one pictue

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Suff Shikan

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 492503


Qing Class?


----------



## lcloo

Suff Shikan said:


> Qing Class?


Yes, it is Qing class as per NATO code name. The Chinese designation is type 32G.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> Yes, it is Qing class as per NATO code name. The official Chinese designation is type 32.


Type 032

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 493307

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86

*Baidu Translate:*
Conventional submarine Type 039C has entered the comprehensive project stage in 2011, the progress of this type of submarine is enormous, the preliminary research work is very solid.
The design of the nuclear-powered attack submarine Type 09IIIB is around 2011-2012. The high-level expectations for this type of submarine are very high.
Type 09IIIB is very different from the past, for example, it can carry vertical anti-ship cruise missiles and land attack cruise missiles, achieve three-in-one network and central computer control, in the degree of information, combat capability and noise reduction level have been a step up.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/6111786953/4280202181979227

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/cw0H_onX9ZRdfybcXgMUEQ

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/F7cvrac6XWggu-bPlcebxQ

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cirr

Next gen nuclear sub is just around the corner 

*人民日报: 军代表为国之重器监工*

16.09.2018, People's Daily

渤海海滨驻扎着一支*监造新型潜艇*的军代表队伍，该队伍肩负着对该型装备的质量监督和军舰验收重任。这支被誉为“*国之重器*”监造官的英雄监造团队，伴随着改革兴装强军的铿锵步履，攻坚克难、接续奋战，在监造某新型潜艇征途上，用青春、热血、智慧和汗水，向党和人民交出了一份合格的答卷。

　　国家利益举头顶

　　*凌晨3点，某新型潜艇建造现场依然灯火通明*。*刚刚合龙完毕的潜艇静卧船台*，代表室全体军代表与船厂近千名技术人员各就各位，严阵以待。“总体试水准备!”“打开一道阀!”“加压!”……一道道口令声中，潜艇各个部位压力表指针指向预定刻度。副总代表马俊带领总体组军代表，和工人一起钻进仅容一人爬行的舷间舱室，对身下超过数十倍大气压的“火药桶”进行检查，逐个点位确认后才会在军检单上签字。对军代表来说，签字就是履行国家责任：必须对装备、对历史负责!

　　总代表张森森清晰记得在报验单上的第一次签字。那时，毕业不到半年的他第一次独立承担潜艇安全阀军检任务。安全阀，看似不起眼的一个小部件，却对潜艇安全意义重大。为了准备这个签字，张森森提前学习相关工艺规范、军检标准。现场反复确认质量后，才郑重地签下了自己的名字。

　　位卑未敢忘忧国。潜艇装备从生产到交付，大概要过“十二道关”，而军代表就是最后一道质量屏障。军代表把关尺度和底线，直接决定装备战斗力。代表室召开的大会小会上，总代表张森森反复强调：“潜艇要用几十年，战友们可能整个军旅生涯都在一条艇上度过。不把最高标准的潜艇交出去，怎么对得起国家、对得起战友？”

　　质量责任担肩头

　　在监看平台，8块高清液晶屏依次排列，每10秒变换一次图像：画面中，弧光闪闪、焊花四溅，工人穿戴着防护设备焊接艇体壳圈;最后一块屏幕上，一排排跳动的曲线，实时显示着焊接作业的电流、电压、环境温湿度参数……这是一套由代表室自主推进研发的“数字化焊接管理平台及监控终端”。该系统的诞生，源于一个多年的难题：一直以来，在关乎潜艇“生命”的耐压艇体焊接工作中，不同电焊工完成同等任务，质量参差不齐，一旦出现问题还难追溯。

　　以前焊工技艺吃“经验饭”，要精准监督，必须走数字化军检的路子。为此，总体组军代表组织多家科研单位，经过反复试验，研制了这套耐压艇体焊接可视化、数字化监督系统。通过该系统对焊接全程实时监测和记录，实现焊接数据精准分析评估，保证了耐压艇体焊接质量和可追溯性，耐压壳圈焊接缺陷大幅减少，时间缩短2/3，在国内同业处于领先。

　　合格不是目标，优秀才是起点。代表室确立了“质量优良、性能可靠、工艺精致、外观精美”的工程目标，向行业前沿迈进：艇体外表面防腐，用上了高铁、港珠澳大桥的技术;保温材料，用上了航天发动机上的复合陶瓷保温层技术……“质量第一”的理念，贯彻于监造全过程。

　　奉献青春终不悔

　　投身潜艇监造，健康难免受影响。γ射线探伤，是工业上一种用于检查焊缝内部缺陷的方法，由于放射性比X射线强，工业上只在很小范围内使用。*因该新型潜艇自身结构的特殊性，只得选用γ射线探伤*。一条焊缝有缺陷，实战中就可能造成艇毁人亡。因此，不管放射性多强，每次探伤作业，军代表都坚守现场，每一道焊缝成像片子都要一一看过，有疑点的还要复查一遍。

　　面对国与家、得与失的抉择，这群军代表总是把使命高高举起，从未退却动摇。电气组组长袁阳和家人两地分居6年，每天晚饭后，视频通话成了袁阳的“必修课”，“宝贝乖，想爸爸了没有？你来说一下，我们的故事昨天讲到哪了？”视频中他眼看女儿一天天成长，笑称自己的孩子“在手机中长大”。军代表唐熊辉在试验现场一待就是几个月，孩子叫第一声爸爸，就是通过手机;副总代表高原是两个孩子的爸爸，参加试航曾错过孩子的出生和一周岁生日，手机是他与孩子们沟通的主渠道。

　　这样一支倾力投入事业的团队，收获了鲜花和掌声：先后3次荣立集体二等功，7人荣立个人二等功，200多人获得单项奖励……代表室全体军代表将自己的人生融入潜艇监造事业，军检单上每一个签字、计划表上每一次出航背后，都蕴含着他们无悔的奉献和付出。

　　(姚江、焦建仓、冀志轩参与采写)

　　《 人民日报 》( 2018年09月16日 06 版)

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Akasa

cirr said:


> Next gen nuclear sub is just around the corner
> 
> *人民日报: 军代表为国之重器监工*
> 
> 16.09.2018, People's Daily
> 
> 渤海海滨驻扎着一支*监造新型潜艇*的军代表队伍，该队伍肩负着对该型装备的质量监督和军舰验收重任。这支被誉为“*国之重器*”监造官的英雄监造团队，伴随着改革兴装强军的铿锵步履，攻坚克难、接续奋战，在监造某新型潜艇征途上，用青春、热血、智慧和汗水，向党和人民交出了一份合格的答卷。
> 
> 国家利益举头顶
> 
> *凌晨3点，某新型潜艇建造现场依然灯火通明*。*刚刚合龙完毕的潜艇静卧船台*，代表室全体军代表与船厂近千名技术人员各就各位，严阵以待。“总体试水准备!”“打开一道阀!”“加压!”……一道道口令声中，潜艇各个部位压力表指针指向预定刻度。副总代表马俊带领总体组军代表，和工人一起钻进仅容一人爬行的舷间舱室，对身下超过数十倍大气压的“火药桶”进行检查，逐个点位确认后才会在军检单上签字。对军代表来说，签字就是履行国家责任：必须对装备、对历史负责!
> 
> 总代表张森森清晰记得在报验单上的第一次签字。那时，毕业不到半年的他第一次独立承担潜艇安全阀军检任务。安全阀，看似不起眼的一个小部件，却对潜艇安全意义重大。为了准备这个签字，张森森提前学习相关工艺规范、军检标准。现场反复确认质量后，才郑重地签下了自己的名字。
> 
> 位卑未敢忘忧国。潜艇装备从生产到交付，大概要过“十二道关”，而军代表就是最后一道质量屏障。军代表把关尺度和底线，直接决定装备战斗力。代表室召开的大会小会上，总代表张森森反复强调：“潜艇要用几十年，战友们可能整个军旅生涯都在一条艇上度过。不把最高标准的潜艇交出去，怎么对得起国家、对得起战友？”
> 
> 质量责任担肩头
> 
> 在监看平台，8块高清液晶屏依次排列，每10秒变换一次图像：画面中，弧光闪闪、焊花四溅，工人穿戴着防护设备焊接艇体壳圈;最后一块屏幕上，一排排跳动的曲线，实时显示着焊接作业的电流、电压、环境温湿度参数……这是一套由代表室自主推进研发的“数字化焊接管理平台及监控终端”。该系统的诞生，源于一个多年的难题：一直以来，在关乎潜艇“生命”的耐压艇体焊接工作中，不同电焊工完成同等任务，质量参差不齐，一旦出现问题还难追溯。
> 
> 以前焊工技艺吃“经验饭”，要精准监督，必须走数字化军检的路子。为此，总体组军代表组织多家科研单位，经过反复试验，研制了这套耐压艇体焊接可视化、数字化监督系统。通过该系统对焊接全程实时监测和记录，实现焊接数据精准分析评估，保证了耐压艇体焊接质量和可追溯性，耐压壳圈焊接缺陷大幅减少，时间缩短2/3，在国内同业处于领先。
> 
> 合格不是目标，优秀才是起点。代表室确立了“质量优良、性能可靠、工艺精致、外观精美”的工程目标，向行业前沿迈进：艇体外表面防腐，用上了高铁、港珠澳大桥的技术;保温材料，用上了航天发动机上的复合陶瓷保温层技术……“质量第一”的理念，贯彻于监造全过程。
> 
> 奉献青春终不悔
> 
> 投身潜艇监造，健康难免受影响。γ射线探伤，是工业上一种用于检查焊缝内部缺陷的方法，由于放射性比X射线强，工业上只在很小范围内使用。*因该新型潜艇自身结构的特殊性，只得选用γ射线探伤*。一条焊缝有缺陷，实战中就可能造成艇毁人亡。因此，不管放射性多强，每次探伤作业，军代表都坚守现场，每一道焊缝成像片子都要一一看过，有疑点的还要复查一遍。
> 
> 面对国与家、得与失的抉择，这群军代表总是把使命高高举起，从未退却动摇。电气组组长袁阳和家人两地分居6年，每天晚饭后，视频通话成了袁阳的“必修课”，“宝贝乖，想爸爸了没有？你来说一下，我们的故事昨天讲到哪了？”视频中他眼看女儿一天天成长，笑称自己的孩子“在手机中长大”。军代表唐熊辉在试验现场一待就是几个月，孩子叫第一声爸爸，就是通过手机;副总代表高原是两个孩子的爸爸，参加试航曾错过孩子的出生和一周岁生日，手机是他与孩子们沟通的主渠道。
> 
> 这样一支倾力投入事业的团队，收获了鲜花和掌声：先后3次荣立集体二等功，7人荣立个人二等功，200多人获得单项奖励……代表室全体军代表将自己的人生融入潜艇监造事业，军检单上每一个签字、计划表上每一次出航背后，都蕴含着他们无悔的奉献和付出。
> 
> (姚江、焦建仓、冀志轩参与采写)
> 
> 《 人民日报 》( 2018年09月16日 06 版)



Let's hold our horses for a moment. Nowhere in the article was it indicated that this particular boat is a nuclear-powered one, much less a supposedly next-generation vessel. The article did not reveal where it was being built, when the reporting took place, or even a half-accurate description of the boat. Too many unknowns with too many premature conclusions.


----------



## jaybird

Akasa said:


> Let's hold our horses for a moment. Nowhere in the article was it indicated that this particular boat is a nuclear-powered one, much less a supposedly next-generation vessel. The article did not reveal where it was being built, when the reporting took place, or even a half-accurate description of the boat. Too many unknowns with too many premature conclusions.



Actually the article's first sentence already mention these military representative/inspectors is stationed at Bohai seashore. And Huludao is located at Bohai sea. Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry is the only Chinese shipyard who can built Nuclear submarines.

Although it didn't explicitly say this was a nuclear submarine that was almost finish. But it does say it was a "new type" of submarine they were inspecting and with a unique structure. So, it's very possible this was a 095 or 096.

And it also mention from submarine production to delivery, it takes around 12 stages. Military representatives quality inspections is the last stage before delivery to the PLAN. So, cirr speculate "Next-generation is just around the corner." is not that outlandish of a conclusion.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## cirr

Akasa said:


> Let's hold our horses for a moment. Nowhere in the article was it indicated that this particular boat is a nuclear-powered one, much less a supposedly next-generation vessel. The article did not reveal where it was being built, when the reporting took place, or even a half-accurate description of the boat. Too many unknowns with too many premature conclusions.



Dude, time to learn or brush up your Chinese.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Akasa

jaybird said:


> Actually the article's first sentence already mention these military representative/inspectors is stationed at Bohai seashore. And Huludao is located at Bohai sea. Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry is the only Chinese shipyard who can built Nuclear submarines.
> 
> Although it didn't explicitly say this was a nuclear submarine that was almost finish. But it does say it was a "new type" of submarine they were inspecting and with a unique structure. So, it's very possible this was a 095 or 096.
> 
> And it also mention from submarine production to delivery, it takes around 12 stages. Military representatives quality inspections is the last stage before delivery to the PLAN. So, cirr speculate "Next-generation is just around the corner." is not that outlandish of a conclusion.



You are correct that I missed the "Bohai" in the first paragraph, but my other points still stand. We don't know if it is a new *class* of submarines and we certainly don't know what type (SSN or SSBN) is being allegedly constructed.

Although the phrase "*刚刚合龙完毕的潜艇静卧船台*" could be interpreted as stating that the submarine is nearing completion.


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## JSCh

*Will China’s new laser satellite become the ‘Death Star’ for submarines? | South China Morning Post*
Scientists are working on a device they hope will be able to reveal the location of a target as far as 500 metres below the ocean surface

PUBLISHED : Monday, 01 October, 2018, 8:33am
UPDATED : Monday, 01 October, 2018, 11:22am

Stephen Chen

China is developing a satellite with a powerful laser for anti-submarine warfare that researchers hope will be able to pinpoint a target as far as 500 metres below the surface.

It is the latest addition to the country’s expanding deep-sea surveillance programme, and aside from targeting submarines – most operate at a depth of less than 500 metres – it could also be used to collect data on the world’s oceans.

Project Guanlan, meaning “watching the big waves”, was officially launched in May at the Pilot National Laboratory for Marine Science and Technology in Qingdao, Shandong. It aims to strengthen China’s surveillance activities in the world’s oceans, according to the laboratory’s website.

Scientists are working on the satellite’s design at the laboratory, but its key components are being developed by more than 20 research institutes and universities across the country.

Song Xiaoquan, a researcher involved in the project, said if the team can develop the satellite as planned, it will make the upper layer of the sea “more or less transparent”.

“It will change almost everything,” Song said.




While light dims 1,000 times faster in water than in the air, and the sun can penetrate no more than 200 metres below the ocean surface, a powerful artificial laser beam can be 1 billion times brighter than the sun. But this project is ambitious – naval researchers have tried for more than half a century to develop a laser spotlight for hunting submarines using technology known as light detection and ranging (lidar).

In theory, it works like this – when a laser beam hits a submarine, some pulses bounce back. They are then picked up by sensors and analysed by computer to determine the target’s location, speed and three-dimensional shape.

But in real life, lidar technology can be affected by the device’s power limitations, as well as cloud, fog, murky water – and even marine life such as fish and whales.

Added to that, the laser beam deflects and scatters as it travels from one body of water to another, making it more of a challenge to get a precise calculation.

Experiments carried out by the United States and former Soviet Union achieved maximum detection depths of less than 100 metres, according to openly available information.

That range has been extended in recent years by the US in research funded by Nasa and the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). A device developed by DARPA, for example, was mounted on a spy plane and achieved reliable results at a depth of 200 metres, detecting targets as small as sea mines.

*MISSION IMPOSSIBLE?*
But some doubt whether the Chinese team will be able to go any further with its device.

“Five hundred metres is ‘mission impossible’,” said a lidar scientist with the Shanghai Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, who is not involved in the project.

“They [project researchers] won’t be able to break through the darkness guarded by Mother Nature – unless of course they are Tom Cruise, armed with some secret weapons,” said the researcher, who asked not to be named due to the sensitivity of the matter.

Still, the government has agreed to fund the research – in part because the team has come up with an innovative approach that has not been tried before, according to a scientist involved in the project who was also speaking on condition of anonymity.

The device is designed to generate high-power laser beam pulses in different colours, or frequencies, that allow sensitive receivers to pick up more information from various depths. Those laser beams can scan an area as wide as 100km, or concentrate on one spot just 1km wide.

It will be used in conjunction with a microwave radar, also mounted on the satellite, to better identify targets. Although the radar cannot penetrate water, it can measure the surface movement with extremely high accuracy – so when a moving submarine creates small disturbances on the surface, for example, the radar will tell the satellite where to throw the laser beam.



The satellite will use lidar technology and a microwave radar to identify targets. Image: Pilot National Laboratory for Marine Science and Technology

Once it has been developed, the laser device is likely to be made by the Xian Institute of Optics and Precision Mechanics, Chinese Academy of Sciences in Shaanxi province. The institute gained attention recently for the lightweight laser weapons it is developing, particularly a device the size of an assault rifle that it claims can set fire to a targetfrom nearly 1km away.

Zhang Tinglu, another researcher involved in the project, said the main target for the satellite was the thermocline – a thin layer of water where the temperature changes abruptly.

He declined to elaborate on the role of the satellite in anti-sub warfare, but the thermocline is known to be important for submarine captains because it can reflect active sonar and other acoustic signals. That means a vessel could potentially avoid detection in the thermocline, but not by a laser beam.

Song said the team aimed to use every available sensing method to achieve the maximum possible depth of detection.

“Sometimes there may not be enough light to reach 500 metres and back, but we can still try to work out what’s down there by taking an indirect measurement at a shallower depth,” he said.

The laboratory has yet to give any indication as to when the satellite will be ready, but Song said the team was under pressure. “There’s still heaps of problems that we need to solve,” he said.

*SURVEILLANCE NETWORK*
China has been investing heavily in military hardware, including anti-submarine technology, as it grows increasingly assertive in the region and beyond.

Last year, Chinese scientists claimed to have made a breakthrough in magnetic detection technology with a device that can monitor tiny disturbances in the Earth’s magnetic field caused by metallic objects such as submarines.

Researchers are also working on sensors using cutting-edge quantum technology to chase the gravitational abnormality that a submarine creates in a large body of water.



China has planted listening devices near Guam, which is home to America’s biggest military base in the western Pacific. Photo: Reuters

Powerful listening devices have also been planted in strategic seabeds near the American naval base in Guam and in the South China Sea, some of which can “hear” low-frequency sounds from more than 1,000km away.

China is also developing underwater gliders and high-speed underwater drones to collect information on a large scale in global waters.

*The world’s next fastest supercomputer will help boost China’s growing sea power*
At the national marine science lab in Qingdao, researchers are working on an exascale supercomputer called “Deep Blue Brain” that, when completed in 2020, aims to be the most powerful computer on the planet – about 1,000 times faster than the fastest computers today.

That project also ties in with the laser device – data collected by the satellite and other assets in China’s global ocean surveillance network will be streamed to the supercomputer in Qingdao for research and analysis.

The laboratory’s website says the supercomputer will then use the masses of data along with artificial intelligence to recreate the world’s oceans, in unprecedented detail, in digital form. The Chinese government says it wants to use that “virtual ocean” to help forecast events ranging from extreme weather to the likely outcome of a sea battle, based on the conditions.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 504039
> View attachment 504040


The hump actually looks very streamline. I don't think it will contributed too much to signature noise. This Type 094 shall be much quiet.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## cirr

New sub（039C？not）launched at JN days/weeks/months back






039B for comparison

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## english_man

Talking of Subs.........have the Chinese finished building the covered construction facility for building their next generation nuclear subs?


----------



## JSCh



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## cirr

Looks like the PLAN has opened up the 2nd nuclear sub production line at JN.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Akasa

cirr said:


> Looks like the PLAN has opened up the 2nd nuclear sub production line at JN.



Do you have a link to the source?


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HRK

LKJ86 said:


>


which submarine is launching the missile ....???
and which missile is this .... ???


----------



## Beast

HRK said:


> which submarine is launching the missile ....???
> and which missile is this .... ???


Song submarine and YJ-82 missile.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 522345
> View attachment 522346


The old Type094 SSBN...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## JSCh

From Sina Military weibo.



> 新浪军事
> 今天 12:40 来自 微博 weibo.com
> 【官方确认中国新一代核潜艇研制：荣获中国工业最高奖】12月9日，第5届中国工业大奖表彰大会在北京举行，被誉为中国工业“奥斯卡”的第5届中国工业大奖获奖名单也正式揭晓。中国船舶重工集团公司第七一九研究所的新一代核潜艇研制项目获得中国工业大奖。


*Sina military
Today 12:40 from Weibo *
[Official confirmation of China's new generation of nuclear submarines: won the highest award in China's industry]
On December 9, the 5th China Industrial Awards Commendation Conference was held in Beijing. The winners of the 5th China Industrial Awards, which is known as the "Oscar" of China's industry, were also officially announced.
The new generation nuclear submarine development project of the 719th Research Institute of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation won the China Industrial Award.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86

The video of Type 039A:
https://m.weibo.cn/5594165638/4318847811556563

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 533980



None of them are 09IIIB-version boats, apparently.


----------



## wulff

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 533377


A translation from our chinese friends would be much appreciated

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Brainsucker

Akasa said:


> None of them are 09IIIB-version boats, apparently.



So how the 09IIIB look like?


----------



## Akasa

Brainsucker said:


> So how the 09IIIB look like?



Not sure, since the rumor mills claims that it hasn't been launched yet.


----------



## Brainsucker

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 533980



So... there are already 11 Type 093 SSN already?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## bahadur999

*Pondering China's Future Nuclear Submarine Production*
What will Chinese nuclear submarine production look like in the future?

By Rick Joe
January 23, 2019


Recently a number of news articles relating to Chinese nuclear submarines have been written. These include reporting on a test launch of a new submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM), as well as reviewing the number of Chinese ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) and nuclear attack submarines (SSNs) in service.

A rumored new nuclear submarine production facility under Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Company (BSHIC) at Huludao may also be edging closer to completion. Therefore it’s a good occasion to reflect on what Chinese nuclear submarine production may look like in the future. Satellite imagery of Huludao and other nuclear production yards around the world will be examined to try and gauge the sort of production capacity the new Huludao may yield — if it is indeed for nuclear submarines. All satellite imagery is open source, acquired from Google Earth.

*The Case Against Bohai*

*Enjoying this article?* Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
A number of articles since mid-2016 have suggested various new buildings and infrastructure constructed at BSHIC would become China’s new nuclear submarine production line. Huludao is home to BSHIC, China’s only shipyard that constructs nuclear submarines, and these new facilities were under BSHIC. Land reclamation at BSHIC has occurred since 2014, with a number of large foundations and buildings constructed (Figure 1), including a main assembly hall, a pressurized hull production shop, a painting shop, and a number of transport rails. Pictures within the newly constructed assembly halls also prompted some Chinese military enthusiasts to compare it with interiors of other nuclear production halls around the world.





Figure 1 – overview of the main BSHIC facilities, taken mid-2018. Note the rail lines.

However, a very well written critique by Capt. Chris Carlson, USN (retired) suggested the new facilities are not intended for nuclear submarines. The thrust of Carlson’s argument revolves around two main points.

First, rail lines from the new facility are blocked from reaching the main drydock due to a 6 meter concrete wall. Therefore newly completed submarines will be unable to be launched, as completed submarines would be far too heavy for drydock gantry cranes to lift.

Second, Carlson argues that the foundations atop the reclaimed land are insufficient to support large and heavy loads like submarines. SSNs can displace up to 8,000 tons and SSBNs over 15,000 tons, surfaced.

*Examining the Arguments*

Carlson’s first argument regarding the rail line reaching the drydock is very logical, as there is very clear past satellite imagery showing the rail lines did not reach the drydock’s edge. However, imagery taken in mid 2017 demonstrates the rail line had been extended up to the drydock’s edge, and all subsequent photos of BSHIC confirm this (Figure 2). The extended rail line virtually eliminates Carlson’s first premise, as there is now a direct transport path for completed submarines to the drydock, provided there is a floating drydock platform to receive hulls.





Figure 2 –the extension of the rail lines to the drydock

Carlson’s second argument is more difficult to evaluate. The accuracy of estimating the new facility’s load bearing capacity based on intermittent satellite imagery of the foundation’s construction is debatable at best. Not only is the imagery used for the estimates of less than optimal resolution, but months may pass between imagery updates on Google Earth, where substantial work may have occurred unobserved. For the purposes of this article, we will keep the plausibility of Carlson’s second argument in mind, but operate under the assumption that BHISC’s new facility could be for nuclear submarines.

Finally, the website East Pendulum has documented many reports and visits from staff associated with the Chinese nuclear submarine industry and the overall construction of BHISC’s new facility, further adding weight that it is intended for nuclear submarine production.

*Examining the Rail Lines*

Assuming that the foundations of the new facility are sufficient for bearing nuclear submarines, the most immediate question of interest is what submarine types the new facility can construct and how many could be constructed at any single time?

To answer this question, it is most instructive to first look at the main assembly hall. At 288 meters long and 135 meters wide, the assembly hall is further divided into three rows, which will be referred to as “production ways” for this article. Each production way is 288 m long and about 45 m wide (Figure 3).





Figure 3 – the overall assembly hall (green) is divided into three “production ways” (yellow)

With satellite imagery, it is possible to identify that each production way is further divided in half lengthways, because each production way has a pair of rolling doors as well as a pair of associated 7.34 m gauge rail lines leading into each door (Figure 4). In other words, each production way has two 7.34 m gauge rail lines, with each rail line composed of two tracks for a total of four “rail tracks” per production way.

A 7.34 m gauge rail line would be sufficient to accommodate a cradle necessary to support a 10-12 m beam submarine consistent with many contemporary SSNs, such as the U.S. _Virginia_ and _Seawolf_ classes or the U.K. _Astute_ class. Furthermore, one can also observe a 7.34 m gauge rail line leading out from the foundations of the future paint workshop toward the drydock, which makes sense as any complete SSN would be transferred to be painted before launch. Therefore, based on the 7.34 m gauge rail that leads out of the production ways as well as the paint workshop, it is possible to conclude that the new facility is very likely intended to produce SSNs with a beam of possibly 10-12 m. It is widely expected that the next generation Chinese SSN will be the 09V class.





Figure 4 – a 7.34 m gauge rail line leads into the future paint workshop, with two in each production way

However, the rail line leading from the paint workshop to the drydock is actually made up of two gauges. The first gauge is 7.34 m as previously indicated. However, a second rail line gauge is also present, at about 13.55 m wide (Figure 5). As previously mentioned, each production way features four “rail tracks” that make up two 7.34 m gauge rail lines; however, the central two “rail tracks” of each production way actually make up a 13.55 m gauge rail line as well, as confirmed on Google Earth’s measurement tool (figure 5).





Figure 5 – a 13.55 m gauge rail line also leads into the future paint workshop, with one in each production way

A 13.55 m gauge rail line is more than sufficient to accommodate cradles necessary for modern SSBNs such as the U.S. _Ohio_ class or Russian _Borei_ class, which have beams of 13 m and 13.5 m respectively. The next generation Chinese SSBN is thought to be designated the 09VI class, and may accommodate the new JL-3 SLBM. A 13.55 m gauge rail line may be capable of supporting even wider cradles for larger nuclear submarines in future, perhaps upwards of 18 m in beam; however this could merely be a case of future proofing the facility’s rail gauges as well.

*Production Ways*

Therefore, each of the three production ways can adopt two different configurations (Figure 6):


SSN configuration: two 7.34 m gauge rail lines are utilized, making use of a production way’s full four rail tracks.
SSBN configuration: one single 13.55 m gauge rail line is utilized, making use of a production way’s two central rail tracks.





Figure 6 – red rail lines represent SSN/7.34 m gauges, blue lines represent SSBN/13.55 m gauges. Four theoretical SSN slots per production way are outlined in red with a U-shaped path, while one single SSBN slot per production way is outlined in blue

Estimating the number of theoretical SSNs or SSBNs that could be assembled in the overall assembly hall will require some basic arithmetic.

For the SSN configuration, it is also possible to see and deduce that each 7.34 m gauge rail line is placed slightly medial to their half of each 45 m wide production way. This provides a 22.5 m width for each 7.34 m rail line with about 9 m of clearance laterally from each wall or separator, and 9 m of clearance medially from the adjacent submarine. Nine meters of clearance for a rail line supporting a 10-12 m beam SSN should be sufficient for each production way to work on two SSNs alongside each other.

However, each production way is 288 m long, and most contemporary SSNs measure less than half that length. For example, the _Virginia_class is 115 m long and the _Astute_ class is even shorter at 97 m. Therefore, it is unlikely the full 288 m of each 7.34 m rail line would be used for assembling a single SSN. In fact, assuming that 09V has a similar length to the _Virginia_ class (which itself is among the longest contemporary SSNs in service), it would be possible for each 7.34 m rail line in a production way to accommodate _two_ SSNs in tandem with room to spare for clearance.

Linking the above information together, each production way could be capable of accommodating work on _four_ contemporary SSN sized nuclear submarines at once, with each “SSN slot” measuring 144 m long and about 22.5 m wide, i.e.: half the width and half the length of the overall production way (Figure 6). Considering there are three production ways that make up the overall assembly hall, the theoretical number of “SSN slots” for the overall assembly hall is 12. Of course, it is unlikely that 12 SSN sized submarines will undergo work in the assembly hall at the same time; however it provides a ceiling figure. Of note, if each production way worked on four SSNs simultaneously, it would require a “U-shaped” production line for new modules to enter a west-facing door for each production way and to leave via the other west-facing door (Figure 6).

The situation is a little less dramatic for the SSBN configuration. Each production way only has the single 13.55 m gauge rail line; therefore it prohibits two SSBNs to be constructed alongside each other. Furthermore, SSBNs tend to be longer than SSNs, with contemporary SSBNs measuring between 150-170 m in length. Assuming the 09VI class is of similar length, each 288 m long production way will only be able to accommodate a single finished SSBN (Figure 6)

In theory it’s possible for a production way to work on “one and a half” SSBNs at once, where modules for new SSBNs can be moved into the production way behind a SSBN that has already completed assembly; however that would require entrance doors on the east side of the overall assembly hall. Such doors have yet to be observed. Therefore, at this point it is estimated that each production way can only work on a single SSBN sized submarine, with the overall assembly hall capable of working on three SSBNs at once.

*Chinese Nuclear Submarine Requirements*

If the new BSHIC facility is intended for nuclear submarine production, the assembly hall allows us to estimate the potential production rate in future. Going by past practice, it is likely that the assembly hall will simultaneously construct a combination of SSNs and SSBNs. For example, one production way may be allocated to work on four SSNs at once, while the two remaining production ways work on each assembling one SSBN. Such an arrangement, once mature and properly organized with efficient pre-assembly module fabrication, may enable two SSNs and one SSBN to be launched every year.

Observers may wonder whether the Chinese navy would require sustaining such a fast rate of nuclear submarine production considering the anemic production pattern of the last generation of 09III and 09IV submarines. However, a decade ago similar thoughts could have existed for Chinese destroyer production – yet in 2018 alone, six new destroyers were launched (three Type 055s and three Type 052Ds).

Other commentators may express skepticism regarding the competitiveness of future mass produced nuclear submarines, as the 09III and 09IV classes are widely considered to be noticeably inferior to SSN and SSBN designs in other leading navies. However it is worth recalling the 09III and 09IV classes were designed and built in the 1990s by Chinese shipbuilding industry and technology of the time. The upcoming 09V and 09VI classes will likely be built using mid to late 2010s technology.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Daniel808

Brainsucker said:


> So how the 09IIIB look like?



you mean this one? @Brainsucker 






http://www.admiraltytrilogy.com/pdf/Type_093B.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Brainsucker

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 534751



This is Type 39B?


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 535065
> View attachment 535066



They left out Yu-9 and Yu-10.


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## bahadur999

Question: Are any of those deployed in the east sea fleet? Where is the ESF anyway?


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## bahadur999

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 521626
> View attachment 521627
> View attachment 521628
> View attachment 521629
> View attachment 521630
> View attachment 521631
> View attachment 521632
> View attachment 521633
> View attachment 521634
> View attachment 521635
> View attachment 521637
> View attachment 521638
> View attachment 521639
> View attachment 521640
> View attachment 521641


what submarine is that? 93G?


----------



## lcloo

bahadur999 said:


> what submarine is that? 93G?


Type 039G conventional powered submarine, NATO code name Song Class SSK.

Edit: Oops! Only the first and last photo is Type 039G. 2nd , 3rd and 4th are Kilo class.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## bahadur999

lcloo said:


> Type 039G conventional powered submarine, NATO code name Song Class SSK.
> 
> Edit: Oops! Only the first and last photo is Type 039G. 2nd , 3rd and 4th are Kilo class.


What is the difference between Song Class and Kilo Class? Are both called 93G?


----------



## lcloo

bahadur999 said:


> What is the difference between Song Class and Kilo Class? Are both called 93G?


Song class is a NATO name for China's Type 039G diesel-electric submarine. KILO class is Russian made submarines imported by China, it is also a diesel-electric submarine.

Type 093 is a nuclear powered attack submarine produced by China.

All domestic Chinese diesel-electric submarines are classified as type 03X, example, type 032, type 033, type 035 and type 039. Since KILO is an imported submarine, it is not classified as a type 03X.

The nuclear powered submarines are classified as type 09X, eg. type 091, type 092, type 093 and type 094. They are actually built under project 09, and the correct classification is Type 09I, Type 09II, Type 09III and type 09IV.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## bahadur999

Thank you *lcloo*!

And i assume all of the submarines are built by BHISC and developed by 719th Institute, right?


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

lcloo said:


> Song class is a NATO name for China's Type 039G diesel-electric submarine. KILO class is Russian made submarines imported by China, it is also a diesel-electric submarine.
> 
> Type 093 is a nuclear powered attack submarine produced by China.
> 
> All domestic Chinese diesel-electric submarines are classified as type 03X, example, type 032, type 033, type 035 and type 039. Since KILO is an imported submarine, it is not classified as a type 03X.
> 
> The nuclear powered submarines are classified as type 09X, eg. type 091, type 092, type 093 and type 094. They are actually built under project 09, and the correct classification is Type 09I, Type 09II, Type 09III and type 09IV.


To elaborate further, the nuclear attack submarines are labelled with odd numerals: 09-I, 09-III, 09-V, while the nuclear ballistic missile submarines are labelled with even numerals: 09-II, 09-IV, 09-VI.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## lcloo

bahadur999 said:


> Thank you *lcloo*!
> 
> And i assume all of the submarines are built by BHISC and developed by 719th Institute, right?


To be frank, I never paid attention to that, so I don't really know.


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Daniel808

bahadur999 said:


> Thank you *lcloo*!
> 
> And i assume all of the submarines are built by BHISC and developed by 719th Institute, right?



For China's Nuclear Submarines, Yes !
All built by BHISC, The Largest Submarine Facility Production in the World at this moment.

For China's Diesel-Electric Subs, there are JCNX (in Shanghai), Wuchang Shipyard (in Wuhan), and others.




LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 538760



I still wonder, what is the purpose of that little hump behind the conning tower. Anyway it get more streamlined in latest variant (Type 093B)

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

Daniel808 said:


> I still wonder, what is the purpose of that little hump behind the conning tower. Anyway it get more streamlined in latest variant (Type 093B)


The best argument I've seen is that it's to house a towed sonar array:
http://www.admiraltytrilogy.com/pdf/Type_093B.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cirr

Making SSNs and SSBNs like sausages:

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/G4i6dyd73dS2xH5U993kPA?

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## wulff

Daniel808 said:


> For China's Nuclear Submarines, Yes !
> All built by BHISC, The Largest Submarine Facility Production in the World at this moment.
> 
> For China's Diesel-Electric Subs, there are JCNX (in Shanghai), Wuchang Shipyard (in Wuhan), and others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still wonder, what is the purpose of that little hump behind the conning tower. Anyway it get more streamlined in latest variant (Type 093B)



If we go by above pic, it says VLS in the 3rd sub, the one with the big bulge (at least that is what i got from the translator)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## bahadur999

Daniel808 said:


> For China's Nuclear Submarines, Yes !
> All built by BHISC, The Largest Submarine Facility Production in the World at this moment.
> 
> For China's Diesel-Electric Subs, there are JCNX (in Shanghai), Wuchang Shipyard (in Wuhan), and others.


Interesting as all subs are developed by CSIC but built by both CSIC and CSSC shipyards


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## bahadur999

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 539635
> View attachment 539636


Where is it?


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## cirr

Successful completion and transfer of a submarine engineering test-bed at Bohai Shipyard, Huludao. 











https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/nICzRmL0wzSdgEXbC8Qstg

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## zectech

Any intelligent military with the advent of hypersonic missiles will not only tunnel deep underground to protect their radars and ADS in the case of a hypersonic missile attack, they will also build very large submarine fleets.

Every ten years they should produce:

20 3.600 ton subs for submarine warfare
20 2.400 ton subs for anti-ship missions
20 1.200 ton subs for littoral missions
10 SSBNs and large subs


----------



## GS Zhou

cirr said:


> Making SSNs and SSBNs like sausages:
> 
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/G4i6dyd73dS2xH5U993kPA?


推行批量化连续建造模式

really sounds like sausage production.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## samsara

GS Zhou said:


> 推行批量化连续建造模式
> 
> really sounds like sausage production.


If the new facility may churn out each class as estimated, then within a couple of years we may learn or simply imagine the drastic hike of under water assets!

In large number those assets will be the ones of the hardly fathomed “surprise factors” that put the naughty force in check, simply an effective, reliable deterrent!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## cirr

https://weibo.com/6111786953/Hn78u5BpL?filter=hot&root_comment_id=0&type=comment#_rnd1553830467593

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Han Patriot

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111622116632346624
Nobody talking about this newly discovered sail-less submarine?

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Keysersoze

Han Patriot said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111622116632346624
> Nobody talking about this newly discovered sail-less submarine?


Anyone know the significance of a sail less sub?


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Manticore said:


> *A short chronological introduction*
> 
> 
> 
> To trace the developments of China’s submarines fleet we first have to trace the history of Russian submarines. This is another area where Russia has been so ideologically bound up with ‘socialism’ in the past that it has compromised its present day security by blindly sharing/selling its technology.
> 
> Pictured above is a _Whiskey_ class Soviet submarine, designed in the mid 1940s and built between 1940 and 1958. This particular vessel (Sub P112) was sold recently (2011) for US $ 550,000. This article covers only conventional diesel-electric boats.
> 
> *Early Years*
> 
> Pre-war Russian submarines spanned vessels varying in displacement from those of a little over 200 tons to over 1,000 tons. Evidence exists to suggest that the Soviet Union and Germany were as early as the Weimar Republic (banned under the Versailles Treaty) co-operating on submarine design and construction.
> 
> Between 1929 and 1945 Russia had approx. 270 submarines, most were designed for the Baltic and coastal waters (see Table below).
> 
> 
> 
> Thus China’s submarine fleet only began in 1954 with the gift of Soviet vessels. However, before then Russiawas to enjoy a technological boost in 1945 with the surrender of Germanyand the articles in the _Potsdam Agreement_ that gave it access to German technology on land, sea and air.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A single Type XXIII _U-Boat_ was allocated to the Soviet Union under the terms of the Agreement but Russia was well placed to salvage other _U-Boats_from Baltic and Eastern Europe countries overrun by the _Red Army_.
> 
> *Left:* Type XXI U-boat (U-2540) sometime after 1945.
> 
> Of particular interest to Britain and America and therefore to Russia were the Walter designed U-boats – the Type XXIII and Type XXI known as the _Elektroboot_ _U-boats_ – with their streamlining, higher underwater speeds and long range. Type XXIII and Type XXI were futuristic and even today it would not be unresonable to believe that these craft could have been built 10 or 15 years ago. By enlarging this image (_click on picture_) it is fascinating to think that these clean and attractive lines were first propounded over 70 years ago.
> 
> The latter, Type XXI, could travel submerged for two or three days before recharging batteries (a 5 hours process using a Snorkel). There are more details of U-boat variants can be found at Appendix A below.
> 
> *Post 1945*
> 
> At the end of World War II, the Soviets obtained several Type XXIs, from which they were able to obtain certain key technologies. These technologies assisted in the design of the _Zulu_class and _Whiskey_ class (NATO codes). Further improvements on the design led to the _Romeo_ class.
> 
> The Type XXI and XXIII U-boats revolutionised Russian post-war submarine design. The Type XXI _U-boat _was almost as fast submerged (13 knots) as it was on the surface (15 knots) and some_U-boats _designs using the Walther _hydrogen peroxide_ system (an unstable gas), were actually faster submerged than on the surface (15 knots vs 17 knots).
> 
> 
> 
> The _Romeo_ class of Soviet diesel-electric submarine (Project 633) can trace its origins and streamlining to the World War II _Elektroboot_ and to the Walter designs (as indeed, can the streamlined _USS Nautilus_, SSN-571).
> 
> *Right:* _Romeo_ class Soviet Sub and Chinese Type 033
> 
> Russia produced 133 _Romeo _class conventional _attack_ submarines – 29 are still in use but not operationally. ‘Attack submarines’ are designed and deployed to sink other submarines and not merely to target surface ships (_eavesdropping_ is another of their other roles).
> 
> Nations that also took delivery of this 1,800 ton class were former Warsaw Pact members and several Middle Eastern countries, e.g. Iran, Syria, Egypt, and Algeria. Approx. 75 of these 1,830 ton Soviet-built subs have been scrapped.
> 
> The bulbous nose (bow) seen on the _Romeo _class pictured above housed the Soviet built _Hercules_ or _Tamir-5_ high-frequency sonar for active / passive search and attack. Later variants are also fitted with _Sintra DUUX 5,_ a low frequency sonar for passive ranging and intercept. Yet later variants were reported to have had weapon systems removed to accommodate surveillance and electronic intelligence (ELINT) equipment for special reconnaissance missions. [1]
> 
> *Nuclear Option*
> 
> Following the 1954 gifts from Russia, Chairman Mao visited Jiangnan shipyard (i.e. Shanghai) in Jan 1956 where the PRC’s very first submarine was being built from a Soviet kit. China would eventually go on to build 21 of these Soviet _“Whiskey” _class boats which were the predecessors of the _Romeo_ class.
> 
> *
> 
> Left:* Soviet_“Whiskey” _class
> 
> Soviet _“Whiskey”_class submarine displaced 1,350 tons submerged, had a range 13,500 nautical miles and so were ideal for the vast distances of the Pacifice. Between 1949 and 1958 a total of 236 _Whiskey_class submarine were built incorporating many variants, e.g. Mark 1 to Mark V. It was succeeded by the _Romeo_ class with a similar range, i.e. 13,500 naut. miles.
> 
> The _Whiskey_ class and _Romeo_ class must be seen as the transitional designs – the stop gaps – from World War II technology to the demands made by the Cold War of a nuclear missile strike capability.
> 
> It is remarkable to read, in Chinese sourced military and political journals in the late 1950s (and from US / CIA sources), of the apparent interest in nuclear powered ships especially submarines atthis early stage. This can only be a reflection of the progress made by the US Navy (_USS Nautilus_, SSN-571), and the ambitions of theUSSR.
> 
> The suspicion is thatthe first fully submerged circumnavigation of the globe by the atomic powered submarine _USS Triton,_ in May 1960, made have riveted attention to the potential that nuclear propulsion held. (_USS Triton_ maintained a steady submerged speed of 21 knots for nearly three months).
> 
> The _party line_ in China appears to be that nuclear propulsion for submarines was adopted as a national priority by Mao himself. This may be true but Mao as a visionary and still a strategist in all things at the age of 63 is stretching credibility (Mao was born in 1893). Two years later, in 1958, an ailing Mao announced the “_Great Leap Forward_”, anattempt to increase agricultural and industrial production by Stalinist ‘_collectives_’ but which failed hopelessly and resulted in famines.
> 
> Shortly afterwards Mao retired from the post of _Chairman_ of the People’s Republic of China and was replaced as head of state by Liu Shaoqi – though Mao continued to wield political influence e.g. sponsoring the _Cultural Revolution_.
> 
> *Ego clash*
> 
> China’s long march towards naval self-sufficiency and her longer term aim of greater parity with the navies of the West halted when Mao metaphorically burnt China’s bridges with Russiain the _Sino-Soviet split_. Mao became openly critical of Nikita Khrushchev’s interpretation of the direction of world communism and how socialism should develop in theUSSR.
> 
> Personality and the _cult of personality_ was the Achilles heel of China. From the 1960s to the late 1970s China was held back first by the nihilistic behaviour of the _Red Guard_ and then the destruction influence of the ‘_Gang of Four’_ (circa 1973). Only with the death of Mao (1976) did China gradually return to some semblance of a normal state. [2]
> 
> While all this was going on Chinabegan producing Soviet-designed_Romeo_ class submarines in significant quantities between 1965 and the early 1980s. Eventually the PLAN had more than 60 of these boats in service. It has been estimated that more than 100 the Type 033 were built by the PLAN and some exported.
> 
> NATO’s codename of _Romeo_ class diesel-electronic submarine was known to the Russia’s as Project 633. They were armed with conventional torpedoes and the transfer of technology to China began in Feb 1959.
> 
> Project 629 submarines, known to NATO as _Golf _class were diesel-electric powered submarine but carried missiles. [3] The illustration below shows the missiles were housed in the conning towr (referred to in american literatire as the ‘sail’), part of the boat
> 
> The two submarine types were to be built in Chinaas _Type 6633_(later known as
> 
> Type 033) and Type 6631 (later known as Type 031) respectively.
> 
> *Left:* Golf class
> 
> To clarify – Type 033 is the Chinese designation and carried torpedoes and Type 031 carried both torpedoes and missiles (Type 6622 / Chinese 033 = _Romeo_ class and 6631 = _Golf _class, respectively).
> 
> Note too how submariens of this era still retained the bow indicating much of their operatinal time could be expected to be spent on the surface. With the advent of nuclear power the beed for a surface ship bow disappears.
> 
> Defence source point to Chinese 033 as enhanced _Romeo_ class insofar as the 033 had better sonar and a longer range. Both the 033 and 031 projects
> 
> suffered from the _Sino-Soviet split_ in as much that although China managed to launch its fist_Romeo_ type sub in 1965 it was not serviceable until 1970.
> 
> *Left:* Artist impression of a _Golf_ class firing a missile
> 
> In terms of an offensive platform it is regarded as a ‘noisy’ vessel, of an ageing design, incapable of operating safely in deep water, e.g. Pacific and suitable only for coastal defence and patrol duties. By the end of the 1990s chain has decommissioned all the craft although 4 were sold to North Korea.
> 
> The original plan was for the production yards to use Soviet-supplied kits initially, and then gradually increase the indigenous elements untilChinacould build the submarines independently.
> 
> *Developments in the 1970s*
> In the 1970s, approximately 20% of China’s defence budget was allocated to naval forces resulting in a dramatic growth in the Navy. The conventional submarine force increased from 35 to 100 boats, but the longer term ambition was still one of a submarine powered by nuclear technology.
> 
> The true extent of how daunting this challenge represented only became fully clear to the Chinese when Moscow refused Peking’s specific request to share nuclear propulsion technology. The rejection was made on the grounds that it would be ‘premature’ for the PLAN. A valid point consideringChina’s lack of experience with underwater craft and the deadly accidents caused by bad luck and casualness.​


Can anyone tell me about Qing class submarine? We Pakistanis are getting them


----------



## lcloo

"Qing" is a NATO code. The proper designation is type 032 submarine. It is a conventional power submarine used as testbed for nuclear ICBM, conventional weapons and systems of China's future submarine.

And it is not for sale, so Pakistan is not getting it. The ones that Pakistan purchase from China is a different type of submarine based on type 039A (or 039B?).

This is type 039A (NATO code "Yuan" class)

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## JSCh

*The PLA Navy in 60 seconds: The Submarine Force*
CGTN
Published on Apr 14, 2019

The Submarine Force was founded in 1954 and is one of the three main focuses of the navy, together with the Surface Force and the Naval Air Force. It consists of all submarines, both nuclear- and conventionally-powered, and its main responsibility is to strike major targets underwater, carry out antisubmarine warfare and scout in open water.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## JSCh

14:54, 19-Apr-2019
*The Underwater Force*
Updated 16:03, 19-Apr-2019
By Han Bin, Huang Xiaodong

"Don't ask me where I am, and even if you ask, I can't tell." This is from a well-known song of the Chinese submarine force. It sums up life on board: usually beneath the ocean's surface, away from prying eyes.

The submarine is one of the most lethal weapons in or on the sea. Due to its stealth nature, missions are seldom reported. And once on a mission, all signals stop under water and the crew "disappears". We were given exclusive access to one of China's conventional submarines and its crew at a military port on China's east coast.

*Strength in silence *

"Serving on a submarine is a risky job. But I think this risk can be controlled," said Zhao Haijun, a captain in the North China Sea Fleet.

Zhao graduated from the PLA Naval Submarine Academy 20 years ago. The veteran submariner has experienced challenging situations, and he constantly drills into his crew the need to remain on high alert when it comes to safety, and to know how to handle emergencies.



A bird-eye view of two 039B type submarine at a military port on China's east coast. /CGTN photo

The 039B type submarine he now captains is representative of some of the PLA Navy's current core strength. Its hydrodynamic design helps keep it invisible under water. It is equipped with air-independent propulsion technology, and advanced systems that help it dive deeper, and move faster and more quietly. Zhao also points out its high level of automation.

*Nameless heroes *

"We are the nameless heroes. We can't see, and there's no concept of day and night. The 24-hour clock tells us whether it's night or day," said Wang Xiaolong, a North China Sea Fleet sailor.

He showed me around the vessel. The 26-year-old has been serving on this 039B type vessel ever since it was commissioned six years ago. Wang said the cramped quarters are not the biggest challenge - it's living under water.



Captain Zhao Haijun and CGTN reporter Han Bin on the 039B type submarine. /CGTN Photo 

After a late start in the 1960s, China prioritized submarine development in its military modernization. Today, the fleet includes both nuclear-powered and diesel-electric submarines. China may already have the largest number of submarines, though not the most advanced. But with the upgraded naval strategy, the PLA Navy's submarine force is on course to more distant waters.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Han Patriot

JSCh said:


> 14:54, 19-Apr-2019
> *The Underwater Force*
> Updated 16:03, 19-Apr-2019
> By Han Bin, Huang Xiaodong
> 
> "Don't ask me where I am, and even if you ask, I can't tell." This is from a well-known song of the Chinese submarine force. It sums up life on board: usually beneath the ocean's surface, away from prying eyes.
> 
> The submarine is one of the most lethal weapons in or on the sea. Due to its stealth nature, missions are seldom reported. And once on a mission, all signals stop under water and the crew "disappears". We were given exclusive access to one of China's conventional submarines and its crew at a military port on China's east coast.
> 
> *Strength in silence *
> 
> "Serving on a submarine is a risky job. But I think this risk can be controlled," said Zhao Haijun, a captain in the North China Sea Fleet.
> 
> Zhao graduated from the PLA Naval Submarine Academy 20 years ago. The veteran submariner has experienced challenging situations, and he constantly drills into his crew the need to remain on high alert when it comes to safety, and to know how to handle emergencies.
> 
> 
> 
> A bird-eye view of two 039B type submarine at a military port on China's east coast. /CGTN photo
> 
> The 039B type submarine he now captains is representative of some of the PLA Navy's current core strength. Its hydrodynamic design helps keep it invisible under water. It is equipped with air-independent propulsion technology, and advanced systems that help it dive deeper, and move faster and more quietly. Zhao also points out its high level of automation.
> 
> *Nameless heroes *
> 
> "We are the nameless heroes. We can't see, and there's no concept of day and night. The 24-hour clock tells us whether it's night or day," said Wang Xiaolong, a North China Sea Fleet sailor.
> 
> He showed me around the vessel. The 26-year-old has been serving on this 039B type vessel ever since it was commissioned six years ago. Wang said the cramped quarters are not the biggest challenge - it's living under water.
> 
> 
> 
> Captain Zhao Haijun and CGTN reporter Han Bin on the 039B type submarine. /CGTN Photo
> 
> After a late start in the 1960s, China prioritized submarine development in its military modernization. Today, the fleet includes both nuclear-powered and diesel-electric submarines. China may already have the largest number of submarines, though not the most advanced. But with the upgraded naval strategy, the PLA Navy's submarine force is on course to more distant waters.


These AIPs are so quiet that even the US Navy can't detect them at close range.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Beast

Han Patriot said:


> These AIPs are so quiet that even the US Navy can't detect them at close range.


But the disadvantage is they travelled at very slow speed. It can only be a slow sneak attack.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
 12


----------



## Zarvan

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 554754
> View attachment 554755


Any idea when steel cutting for first submarine for Pakistan will take place


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## samsara

From Rick Joe on 25 April:

[thread]
_*Fzgfzy makes some interesting statements regarding 09V SSN, suggesting we may see pictures of it next year* (likely satellite) -- does he mean lead 09V has launched or soon to be launched? 

Also, says *09VI SSBN* will follow 09V, and it should be less than 5 years to see it._






So, question is whether *lead 09V* is being built/assembled in the new Bohai facility that looks like it was only fully completed in the last year...? But the assembly halls looked finished back in mid 2017.

Or, is the lead 09V being built at Bohai's old facility? 
@HenriKenhmann







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1121309571102830592

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Bengal71

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 554754
> View attachment 554755




What's the name of this sub? It looks like it has a lot of VLS?


----------



## lcloo

Bengal71 said:


> What's the name of this sub? It looks like it has a lot of VLS?



It is type 09IV SSBN (Strategic Submarine Ballistic Nuclear) that carries nuclear armed inter-continental ballistic missiles (ICBM) in vertical launch tubes.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lcloo

Type 039 series SSK

The designation of latest Chinese SSK can be confusing sometimes, what is type 039, 039G, 039A, 039B and even 039C (which I believe it not built or in service yet).

To my understanding, there is only one type 039 which is #320 with stepped sail. NATO code Song class. Subsequent improved Song class with straight sails are designated as type 039G. "G" indicate it is a modified upgrade variant of type 039.

Yuan class seen to have two variants. The first one is designated as type 039A. Many netizens like to call this type 039B may be because they thought the Song class should be designated as type 039A.

And the second variant, an improved Yuan class surfaced few years ago. If the original Yuan is designated as type 039A, the improved version should be designated as "039AG", though everybody called it type 039B which seen to be official now that during the 70th PLAN parade in Qingdao it is called type 039B.

039





039G





039A





039B

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## bahadur999

lcloo said:


> Type 039 series SSK
> 
> The designation of latest Chinese SSK can be confusing sometimes, what is type 039, 039G, 039A, 039B and even 039C (which I believe it not built or in service yet).
> 
> To my understanding, there is only one type 039 which is #320 with stepped sail. NATO code Song class. Subsequent improved Song class with straight sails are designated as type 039G. "G" indicate it is a modified upgrade variant of type 039.
> 
> Yuan class seen to have two variants. The first one is designated as type 039A. Many netizens like to call this type 039B may be because they thought the Song class should be designated as type 039A.
> 
> And the second variant, an improved Yuan class surfaced few years ago. If the original Yuan is designated as type 039A, the improved version should be designated as "039AG", though everybody called it type 039B which seen to be official now that during the 70th PLAN parade in Qingdao it is called type 039B.
> 
> 039
> View attachment 558069
> 
> 
> 039G
> View attachment 558070
> 
> 
> 039A
> View attachment 558071
> 
> 
> 039B
> View attachment 558072


So we are talking here about two 039 variants with each having their own improved version.
But in terms of size (dimensions) they are all the same and the improvements are with the internal systems.


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## yusheng



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## lcloo

I spotted 3 variants of "Yuan" class but only 2 designations are known, i.e. 039A and 039B. What is the designation for the second variant? 039AG?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Grandy

Military 
*China’s BeiDou satellite navigation system breaks underwater barriers, naval shipbuilder says*

Advances in positioning system ‘could be applied to country’s stealth submarines and subsea drones’



Minnie Chan  
Published: 6:05am, 20 Jun, 2019





China sends twin BeiDou navigation satellites into space via a single carrier rocket from Xichang Satellite Launch Centre in Xichang, Sichuan province, last year. Photo: Xinhua

Tests have confirmed advances in the maritime use of China’s home-grown satellite navigation system, gains that could strengthen the ability of the country’s submarines and underwater drones to mount stealth strikes, military specialists said.

China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) said underwater precision positioning tests conducted by its No 716 Research and Development Institute in waters off Lianyungang in Jiangsu province, proved that it had overcome a number of core technical problems with the BeiDou Navigation Satellite System.

CSIC, China’s biggest state-owned naval shipbuilder, said the tests showed that the BeiDou system could not only provide accurate and consistent positioning data to underwater vessels, but could also send tracking and positioning information from underwater devices to shore-based and surface stations.

“The tests were meant to comprehensively test the BeiDou system’s capacity to deal with the complex sea environment,” CSIC said, adding that the system’s positioning accuracy and ranges were better than expected.

But the company did not specify the depths and ranges of the tests.

Beijing-based naval specialist Li Jie said the advances would help Chinese submarines and underwater drones improve their ability to track other vessels and mount precision stealth strikes

“Precision and communication are the two most important elements for submarines and underwater drones,” Li said.

“If the underwater BeiDou system can provide accurate positioning information and support communication between submarines and drones and land-based stations it would be a big strategic achievement for the Chinese navy – they will have finally built an independent global navigation system.”





Improvements to the BeiDou system could help China in Arctic exploration. Photo: Xinhua

The tests are understood to be part of Beijing’s plan to turn the BeiDou system into a global geolocation network, covering land and sea by 2020.

State news agency Xinhua reported last week that China had 35 satellites in orbit as part of the system to provide accurate positioning and navigation services to users around the world.

Beijing-based military expert Zhou Chenming said the underwater BeiDou system could be for both military and civilian uses, including guiding artificial intelligence drones sent up to 3,000 metres below the surface of the South China Sea and other waters.

“AI drones are cheaper to deploy than submarines, but they’re still very expensive, with one drone costing up to 50 million yuan (US$7.2 million). Underwater navigation in deep seas is also much more challenging than in the space,” Zhou said, adding that one of the drones was picked up by Vietnamese fishermen off the coast of Phu Yen province in south-central Vietnam in December.

He said the system could also help China exploit maritime resources.

“If the underwater BeiDou system can provide stable communication links with shore-based centres and surface command ships, then it would help China do underwater geological surveys,” Zhou said.

Macau-based military expert Antony Wong Dong said the advances in the satellite navigation system could bolster the operations of China’s nuclear-powered strategic submarines, deep-sea rescues, scientific research on the high seas and even Arctic exploration.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lcloo

039B SSK.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Deino

Just got the note, that the latest Google Earth images of the yard at Huludao show a SSBN (?) in the dry dock... could anyone please check?


----------



## aliaselin

Han Patriot said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111622116632346624
> Nobody talking about this newly discovered sail-less submarine?


Experimental submarine for testing cryogenic nuclear reactor


----------



## Deino

A prime example of the Western bias towards China:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156646183307218945

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> A prime example of the Western bias towards China:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156646183307218945

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## kuge

Deino said:


> A prime example of the Western bias towards China:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156646183307218945


EVIL china at it again...

Reactions: Like Like:

3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

Via @边境计划firefly from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86

Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86

Via navy.81.cn

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## dBSPL

Can we get some information about these unmanned systems?


----------



## yantong1980

dBSPL said:


> Can we get some information about these unmanned systems?



Probably some underwater surveillance system, but perhaps some Chinese member can share some detail about it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Grandy

Science 
*Chinese scientists develop airborne laser device that could track submarines deep underwater*

Shanghai team say airborne device can find targets at twice the depth of existing technology



Stephen Chen  
Published: 1:00am, 3 Oct, 2019





Researchers from the Shanghai Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics test their laser detector over the South China Sea. Photo: Chinese Academy of Sciences.

Researchers in eastern China say they have developed an airborne laser device that can detect underwater objects at unprecedented depths, technology that one day might be used to track submarines.
The team from the Shanghai Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics said the device could pick up objects more than 160 metres (525 feet) beneath the sea, twice as deep as devices used today.

“It is the first time [to have reached that depth] … with potential for further improvement,” the institute said on its website.
The airborne laser system was tested over the South China Sea in April and the results were made public this month.





The Shanghai team that developed the airborne laser device has also worked on the Guanlan satellite. Image: SCMP

“It provides powerful technical support for satellite laser remote sensing,” the institute said.
The institute is involved in Guanlan, or Sea Watcher, China’s programme to build a laser satellite that can “light up” targets 500 metres beneath the ocean – beyond most submarines’ operational depths.
It is not clear if the April tests were part of the Sea Watcher project.
*https://www.scmp.com/news/china/sci...-laser-satellite-become-death-star-submarines*
*Will China’s new laser satellite become the ‘Death Star’ for submarines?*

Led by Professor Chen Weibiao, the Shanghai team used a beam generated by green and blue lasers. As light – even laser, a pure, coherent form of light – scatters faster in water than in air, the beam must be very powerful to go deep.
Laser devices generate an energised beam of light of a single colour, or frequency. Green and blue beams can penetrate water with relative ease.
Chen’s team also developed a highly sensitive detector that can pick up a single photon reflected from a target, allowing the device to detect bright objects close to the surface as well as targets hidden in the deep, they said.

The researchers did not reveal the location or environment of the experiment, but a photo posted on the institute’s website showed the beam came from a plane flying above clouds. These experiments are typically conducted from a height of 500-1,000 metres (1,600-3,200 feet).





Optical science is becoming a front line in an arms race where nuclear submarines may not be able to hide. Photo: EP

Optical science is becoming a front line in an arms race. Lasers can be used monitor craft that are invisible to sonar, such as submarines with extremely quiet engines fitted with sound absorption materials. They can also help track degaussed submarines with magnetic signatures that are difficult to detect.
Lasers can also detecting waves generated by a moving target, and monitor temperature variations it creates in water.

*China is building world’s most powerful laser radar to study Earth’s solar shield*

Song Chengtian, associate professor at the Beijing University of Technology who studies laser detection, said the underwater technology had interested the military and researchers for decades.

“Despite tremendous efforts, the depth remains too shallow,” he said.
One reason was that laser devices mounted on planes or satellites were usually compact and their power is limited.
The Shanghai team “may have achieved an important technological breakthrough”, said Song, who was not involved in the study.





Team leader Professor Chen Weibiao developed equipment for China’s Chang’e 4 lunar exploration programme. Photo: AP

According to state media, Chen developed laser equipment for China’s Chang’e 4 lunar exploration programme this year.
“A space-based laser system requires high reliability, high power and high beam quality, but at the same time it must be miniaturised to meet the requirements of the aerospace environment,” he was quoted by Xinhua as saying in August.
Chen could not be reached for comment.


Read more


The Chinese research that might help shield subs from sonar

[URL='https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2028686/chinas-latest-space-mission-step-towards-pla-tracking']


Is China’s latest space mission a step towards PLA tracking of nuclear submarines?[/URL]

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## JSCh

Oct 9, 2019, 07:50am
*Chinese Navy’s New Mystery Submarine*
H I Sutton
Aerospace & Defense
I cover the changing world of underwater warfare.

China continues to surprise the defense world. It is probably the only country on earth who can build a full-size submarine without any details leaking out. By comparison the name, size and general characteristics of US Navy submarines are well known long before they roll out of the shed. A year ago China surprised everyone by launching a submarine which no one had been expecting. Only now are further details emerging via Open Source Intelligence (OSINT).


....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2019/10/09/china-navy-new-mystery-submarine

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## obj 705A

no news about the type 095 & the type 096 for quite a while now, when will they begin construction!
while China's DDG production is nothing but impressive , but it's SSN production is in a quite terrible condition, severly below what China needs against the USN, in a real war between the two the USN won't use the Burke's at the front lines instead they will send in their SSNs, it should be quite easy for US SSNs to sink all the surface vessels, historicaly ship vs ship battles are quite rare, when a ship is sunk it's done mostly either by a sub or an aircraft.

when they built the Seawolf they completely desregared the cost inorder to get the best possible SSN before they reconsidered & went to the cheaper Virginia, but now the USN decided to go back to making their SSNs as capable as possible no matter the cost, their next gen Subs will begin production by 2030 & will cost 5.5$ billion per sub! therefore China should also do the same, make the SSNs as capable as technological possible, China is not a poor country they can fund it & even if they don't have enough money (highly unlikely) then they should just reduce the rate of DDG production from the current 5-7 per year to just 2, assuming each DDG has a life span of 35 years they would end up with 70 DDGs, if that is what's needed to have more capable SSNs in much larger numbers then so be it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Fsjal

obj 705A said:


> historicaly ship vs ship battles are quite rare, when a ship is sunk it's done mostly either by a sub or an aircraft.


Actually, sub-vs-ship action is also extremely rare with only three instances of ships being sunk by submarines post WWII. Many anti-ship actions since the Cold War were indeed from air attacks but submarine attacks don't happen often.

It's why when you look at the US Navy, they place quite the emphasis on carriers and maritime air power since carrier-borne combat aircraft not only provide power projection but also extends the striking range of a fleet.


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86

Via @Graywhale_921 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Bogeyman

Tides of Change: China’s Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines and Strategic Stability
https://carnegietsinghua.org/2018/1...-submarines-and-strategic-stability-pub-77490


----------



## LKJ86

Via @高大丰满长艏楼 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @aman928y from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86

Via @当代海军 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via @当代海军 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Figaro

I was digging through SDF and found this post by Blitzo made last April. Could be huge if true.


> From fzgfzy
> https://www.weibo.com/5553794589/Hr4R1gFy2?type=comment
> 
> "久伍已经有了，如果运气好，明年应该有照片了吧。"
> 
> Claims that 09V is already "there" (not sure if he means launched or in advanced stages of construction). Says that next year if we're lucky we might get a picture of it (presumably by satellite).
> 
> 
> Also, in the comment thread when someone asks when we can expect 09VI, fzgfzy says "这个应该慢一点" -- it should be slower (presumably relative to 09V).
> However when someone else asks if he has hope to see it in 5 years, fzgfzy then says "那又不用五年" -- it also shouldn't need 5 years.
> So presumably he is saying 09VI will emerge after 09V (as expected), but that it should emerge before 5 years from now.
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> Personally I'm a bit surprised if we will be able to see 09V next year, that is a year or two earlier than I would've personally predicted. I was under the impression production of the lead 09V would've only began in late 2017/early 2018 at the earliest, so if it's launched by 2020 that's rather speedy. All the moreso if they're using the new Bohai facility because it looks like that overall production facility was fully finished late last year/early this year.
> 
> 09VI emergence period is quite reasonable though.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## azesus

Figaro said:


> I was digging through SDF and found this post by Blitzo made last April. Could be huge if true.


Henri from SDF posted they just gave the design specs to suppliers and they are still doing testing. 9V is 3D low sail hybrid double hulled similar to that mysterious low sail sub I think thats a test model of it. They said having a low sail the hydrodynamic quieting advantage effect is similar to pumpjet over regular screw so imagine 9V having low sail, rimless pumpjet, permanent magnet electromagnet motor integrated electric propulsion, Large Aperture Bow (LAB) hull conforming sonar array list goes on and on, likely four more years, two to testing and then another two to manufacture


----------



## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @东部战区 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## lcloo

039B

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## aziqbal

SSK fleet is built at Wuhan ? 

How are things there ?


----------



## Beast

aziqbal said:


> SSK fleet is built at Wuhan ?
> 
> How are things there ?


Stopped.


----------



## LKJ86

Beast said:


> Stopped.


Of course not.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86

Via @這些年我毅笑而過 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## LKJ86

Via @万全 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ILC

I wonder what is the designations of these different variants of 09III.
From what I heard 09IIIB not built yet. So when we will see 09V? Maybe closer to 2030s.


----------



## LKJ86

Via 人民画报

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Suff Shikan

Cant w8 to see these Oceanic Beasts in Pak Navy


----------



## LKJ86

Via @铁幕君SSS from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BHarwana

*Chinese navy commissions two new nuclear submarines*
Two new upgraded nuclear-powered strategic submarines have gone into service in China in time for the 71st anniversary of the navy, according to Chinese military sources. The vessels are revamped versions of the Type 094, or Jin-class, nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBN).

https://navalnews.net/chinese-navy-commissions-two-new-nuclear-submarines/

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## LKJ86

Via @人民海军 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## LKJ86

Via @铁幕君SSS from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

Via @牧星人拓拔尊 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @HSH发烧友网 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## beijingwalker

*Chinese Navy Steps Closer To New Generation Of Nuclear Submarines*
Jun 19, 2020,07:50am EDT
Aerospace & Defense





It seems likely that the Chinese Navy's next generation submarines, the Type-095 and Type-96, will be larger than their current classes

New evidence at the Bohai shipyard in China points to the construction of the next generation of nuclear submarines for the Chinese Navy (known as the PLAN). While many have argued that the new Type 095 and 096 subs will be built there, it is only now that the infrastructure is largely ready. The new submarines will be important if the PLAN wishes to patrol the open Pacific, or routinely venture into the Indian Ocean. Analysis of commercial imagery shows a new launch barge has recently been completed at the site. From an intelligence standpoint, this is an important indicator.

In an unclassified analysis, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) says it expects China’s submarine fleet to grow from around 66 boats today to 76 by 2030. This will include 6 more nuclear-powered attack submarines, which is what the Bohai yard at Huludao builds. So the work at the new Huludao facility will play a key part in the expansion. The ONI points to this fact, stating, “Current expansion at submarine production yards could allow higher future production numbers.”

So it is not a great leap to say that the new construction halls and dry dock at Huludao will be used to build new nuclear-powered attack submarines. These are expected to be the all-new Type-095 Tang Class which may be China’s answer to the Virginia Class. I estimate that at least nine will need to be built to reach the 2030 projection. This is because three of the existing boats are reaching the end of their operational lives. The Type-091 Han class were China’s first generation nuclear submarines and entered service in the 1970s. Three of the class, laid down in the 1980s, are still in service. The rest are the newer Type-093 Shang class which first entered service in 2006.

Work on the Huludao expansion started in 2014 with large new construction halls built on reclaimed land. The hall has three construction bays, each large enough to house two submarines. The buildings themselves were complete by 2017, but it is only recently that they have been connected to the dry dock where the submarines will be launched. A new launch barge has been put in place to transfer the submarines from dry land into the water. So China now has the facilities lined up to start launching Type-095 submarines.





Chinese Navy Submarine construction site at Huludao.

According to Captain Chris Carlson, a former senior U.S. intelligence officer and technical intelligence expert, the driver for the new construction facility may not be the Type-095. Instead he sees the next generation ballistic missile submarine (SSBN), the Type-096, as benefiting more. This is because he expects it to be larger and heavier than the current Type-094 Jin class SSBN. “The original construction hall is probably too small to house both new submarines, but this assumes the submarines’ beam (width) is the constraining issue – the Type 096's expected greater length is a definite problem. The original launch barge also likely has inadequate lifting capacity to get a much larger Type 096 submarine into the water.”

Carlson believes that the new submarines will be wider than the current generation. “Despite all the blog blustering, the current Type 093 attack submarine is a noisy boat. And the 093A, while better, isn't the equivalent of a 688 (Los Angeles Class)”. This is largely because of size. Carlson continues, “The pressure hull diameter of a Type-093 is just too small for a full entablature raft along with compound isolation to house the entire propulsion plant and the necessary auxiliaries. This is the same constraint the Russian’s experienced with the Victor III Class that has a less effective ring raft.” In layperson’s terms, the pressure hull needs to be bigger to provide space to insulate the submarine’s steel hull from the vibrations of the machinery.

If high levels of stealth are desired, then the new submarines will likely have a similar hull diameter to the Russian Improved Akula class. According to ONI documents, the Improved Akula-I is reputed to be quieter than a U.S. Navy Improved Los Angeles (688I) Class submarines. The new Chinese boats will also have a special outer hull treatment, known as an anechoic coating, which improves stealth.

Of course the new submarines are expected to have the latest in Chinese sonar and weapons. But the biggest capability leap might be a larger crew. This will enable much longer patrols because, despite ever-improving automation, crew fatigue remains a major constraint for at-sea endurance. So these bigger boats are seen as a step in the journey for a PLAN with global ambitions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutt...eneration-of-nuclear-submarines/#e8202d3229e5

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Foxtrot Delta

I know pakistan pakistan navy would be drooling fir a couple of these.. magnificent power.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

_It seems like the long awaited new production facility (which is a massive expansion with the newly built area of about 40,000 square meters according to Popular Science) at the Bohai Shipyard, Huludao Port, Yellow Sea, southwestern Liaoning, is ready to start churning out China's NEXT-GEN nuclear submarines, both the Type 095 SSN and Type 096 SSBN. What a great news after awaiting patiently for few years… _

~ EXCERPT ~

*Chinese Navy Steps Closer To New Generation Of Nuclear Submarines*

*By H I Sutton (2020-06-19)*






NEW EVIDENCE at the Bohai Shipyard in Huludao points to the construction of the next generation of NUCLEAR SUBMARINES for the Chinese Navy (known as the PLAN). While many have argued that the new Type 095 and 096 subs will be built there, it is only now that the infrastructure is largely ready. The new submarines will be important if the PLAN wishes to patrol the open Pacific, or routinely venture into the Indian Ocean. Analysis of commercial imagery shows a new launch barge has recently been completed at the site. From an intelligence standpoint, this is an important indicator.

In an unclassified analysis, the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) expects China’s submarine fleet to grow from around 66 boats today to 76 by 2030. This will include 6 more nuclear-powered attack submarines, which is what the Bohai yard at Huludao builds. So the work at the new Huludao facility will play a key part in the expansion. The ONI points to this fact, stating, “Current expansion at submarine production yards could allow higher future production numbers.”

So it is not a great leap to say that the new construction halls and dry dock at Huludao will be used to build new nuclear-powered attack submarines. These are expected to be the all-new Type-095 which may be China’s answer to the Virginia Class. I estimate that at least 9 will need to be built to reach the 2030 projection. This is because three of the existing boats are reaching the end of their operational lives. The Type-091 were China’s first generation nuclear submarines and entered service in the 1970s. Three of the class, laid down in the 1980s, are still in service. The rest are the newer Type-093 which first entered service in 2006.

Work on the Huludao expansion started in 2014 with large new construction halls built on reclaimed land. The hall has three construction bays, each large enough to house two submarines. The buildings themselves were complete by 2017, but it is only recently that they have been connected to the dry dock where the submarines will be launched. A new launch barge has been put in place to transfer the submarines from dry land into the water. So China now has the facilities lined up to start launching Type-095 submarines.






~~~~~~~~~

Readers may also wish to revisit the past article on this newly built production hall at the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Company (BSHIC) carried by the Popular Science in April 2017.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## samsara

The numerik code for the Type itself is very clear, not dubious in any sense!

So what do all the names of Chinese dynasties do here? Why some "entity" needs to enforce its own naming rule on other's stuffs?

Does Russia do the similar thing to "that entity"'s stuffs?

Does China do the similar thing to "that entity"'s stuffs?

If the answer is NO and NO then we all should note that "such enforcement" ain't necessary to follow… it's just a pure display of superiority complex that everything must adopt "my own standard" even when they are others' properties!


----------



## Tiqiu

Finally Type -096 is unveiled.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## samsara

Tiqiu said:


> Finally Type -096 is unveiled.
> View attachment 643471


OMG!! Is this really the long awaited next-gen *Type 096 SSBN* to carry the JL-3??? 

I get the very first impression of its presence as being HUGE !!!

Deep in my heart I shed my tears of joys seeing the very first picture of it even though just so limited view for the next-gen nuclear subs have been in waiting for so long…

And WHO is the name of the veteran researcher (if not mistaken, he's dubbed [informally] as the “Father of Chinese Nuclear Submarine”) who spent 30 years or more, even risked his own life in some trial, working diligently and persistently on improving the Chinese subs?? I just forget his name right now. He must be very happy to witness these next-gen subs!! Please tell his name.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Beast

星海军事 said:


> No, it's 09II.


All Type092 already retired.

Only the first gen SSN 091G still around.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tiqiu

星海军事 said:


> No, it's 09II.


Okay, if you claim that is 092, than which type is this?








samsara said:


> OMG!! Is this really the long awaited next-gen *Type 096 SSBN* to carry the JL-3???
> 
> I get the very first impression of its presence as being HUGE !!!
> 
> Deep in my heart I shed my tears of joys seeing the very first picture of it even though just so limited view for the next-gen nuclear subs have been in waiting for so long…
> 
> Who is the name of veteran researcher who spent 30 years or so working on improving the Chinese subs?? I just forget his name right now. He must be very happy to witness these next-gen subs!!


I believe his name is Human xuhua/黄旭华。

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ILC

09VI hasn't even started building. Better watch when 09IIIB starts launching/commissioning. By the way from the pic the design looks backward, no way it would be next-gen SSBN.


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

Tiqiu said:


> Finally Type -096 is unveiled.
> View attachment 643471


That's just a Type 09-IV.



星海军事 said:


> No, it's 09II.


09-IV.


----------



## samsara

Tiqiu said:


> I believe his name is Huang Xuhua/黄旭华。


Yes, you're right, thanks 

*Huang Xuhua* 黄旭华 (born in March 1926), now 94 years old, _the Father of the Chinese Nuclear Submarine._

From Baidu Encyclopedia
黄旭华_百度百科
中国核潜艇之父

Huang Xuhua's profile from the series of China weapon designer and in his own words
《威武之师背后的财经密码》 20170801 驶向深蓝：舰船潜艇篇 | CCTV

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tiqiu

星海军事 said:


> I would not discuss whether it is decommissioned or not but this picture was taken 6 years ago.
> http://www.mod.gov.cn/intl/2014-10/14/content_4543349.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Yours was taken before multiple modifications. Here are some another images of 09II at various stages with hatches closed for your reference.
> 
> View attachment 643626
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 09IVs have very different SLBM hatches.


092 is equipped with JL-1 which has diameter 1.4 meter. Take a look at this image of 092 with hatches opened, how is it possible for sailors standing on the podium in a 8 by 20 formation ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tiqiu

星海军事 said:


> The top width of the hump of 09II is around 7 meters and the shoulder width of the sailors is 40 centimeters. I don't think it is too hard to imagine.


Your imagination made me laugh. You are telling me to imagine the podium width of the hump to be 7 nteters while the launch tube is not much larger than 1.4 meters in diameter.


----------



## samsara

Is there any good CGI of Type 095 and 096? Saw around internet but could not find any sufficiently good quality, while piling here is too thick to dig.


----------



## Tiqiu

samsara said:


> Is there any good CGI of Type 095 and 096? Saw around internet but could not find any, while piling here is too thick to dig.


Something strange and fishy as the original poster of that alleged 096 photography removed his post, therefore I may have jumped too quickly into that 096 belief. Sorry mate.

Wish the real 096 lurking at some corner surfaces soon.



星海军事 said:


> I thought this should be pretty straightforward.
> 
> View attachment 643656
> View attachment 643655


It maybe 094, but thanks anyway.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## bahadur999

Source in Liaoning claims that Jianggezhuang Base has been temporarily inactive lately (as of today still no activities). Qingdao is still kicking it though.


----------



## LKJ86

By 周启青

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via @人民海军 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Figaro

ILC said:


> 09VI hasn't even started building. Better watch when 09IIIB starts launching/commissioning. By the way from the pic the design looks backward, no way it would be next-gen SSBN.


There are rumors that the 09V will finish construction this year if it has not done so already ... as for the commissioning of Chinese nuclear subs, I wouldn't bother waiting. The Chinese nuclear sub program is one of the most, if not most secretive program in the entire Chinese military.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

By 周启青

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via @人民海军 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Figaro

A retired US Navy submariner/sonar officer by the channel name of Sub Brief (previously Jive Turkey) says the 2000s Type 093A sub has a noise level of 110 dB, around the same level as a 1990s improved Victor III. He should be a pretty credible source on this given his background ... also goes to show Chinese nuclear subs maybe far quieter than many of us expect considering the 093A is pretty old technology (almost two decades old). Credits to @DucanIdaho over at SDF.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Team Blue

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 657930
> 
> Via www.81.cn


Ah yes, 一八, a major day in China


----------



## Figaro

Team Blue said:


> Ah yes, 一八, a major day in China


It's actually 八一 (August 1) and is meant to celebrate the founding of the People's Liberation Army, which was founded on August 1, 1927.


----------



## Team Blue

Figaro said:


> It's actually 八一 (August 1) and is meant to celebrate the founding of the People's Liberation Army, which was founded on August 1, 1927.


I know, was joke. I'm literally a Chinese linguist.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## azesus

Jive Turkey or aaron amick is just an E-6 petty officer 1st class sonarman stop pretend he knows more than anything

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Figaro

azesus said:


> Jive Turkey or aaron amick is just an E-6 petty officer 1st class sonarman stop pretend he knows more than anything


Well he did serve in the Pacific as a submariner and he is very knowledgeable of sonar and submarine detectability in his videos. If anything, what he said about the 093A is extremely reasonable, especially the 110 dB noise level.


----------



## juj06750

Figaro said:


> Well he did serve in the Pacific as a submariner and he is very knowledgeable of sonar and submarine detectability in his videos. If anything, what he said about the 093A is extremely reasonable, especially the 110 dB noise level.


any evidence for such claim on our submarine? Like deino, I like to see image for it


----------



## Figaro

juj06750 said:


> any evidence for such claim on our submarine? Like deino, I like to see image for it


Well that is the number he claims, which is line with other claims made of the 093A's noise level ... personally, 110 db sounds like a very reasonable estimate for a early 2000s Chinese nuclear submarine.


----------



## juj06750

Figaro said:


> Well that is the number he claims, which is line with other claims made of the 093A's noise level ... personally, 110 db sounds like a very reasonable estimate for a early 2000s Chinese nuclear submarine.


this is forum for exchange of visible evidence for whatsoever;
and deino wants images


----------



## Figaro

juj06750 said:


> this is forum for exchange of visible evidence for whatsoever;
> and deino wants images


There are no images to show a 110 db sound level lol

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## juj06750

Figaro said:


> There are no images to show a 110 db sound level lol


oh my god, not necessarily images;
any evidence? like at least recorded sound
if none, no credit


----------



## Figaro

juj06750 said:


> oh my god, not necessarily images;
> any evidence? like at least recorded sound
> if none, no credit


Even if they did record this, showing this on Youtube would be leaking highly classified USNI information and would likely result in criminal charges.


----------



## PeacefulWar

Figaro said:


> Well that is the number he claims, which is line with other claims made of the 093A's noise level ... personally, 110 db sounds like a very reasonable estimate for a early 2000s Chinese nuclear submarine.





juj06750 said:


> oh my god, not necessarily images;
> any evidence? like at least recorded sound
> if none, no credit



It's a reasonable guess IMHO.
But we can never prove nor disprove it.
So take a chill pill guys

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Figaro

PeacefulWar said:


> It's a reasonable guess IMHO.
> But we can never prove nor disprove it.


It is just very frustrating we have so little information on Chinese nuclear subs ... same level of information as on Chinese nuclear weapons/missiles.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## juj06750

Figaro said:


> Even if they did record this, showing this on Youtube would be leaking highly classified USNI information and would likely result in criminal charges.


again; no evidence no credit
it's the rule of world


----------



## Figaro

obj 705A said:


> no news about the type 095 & the type 096 for quite a while now, when will they begin construction!
> while China's DDG production is nothing but impressive , but it's SSN production is in a quite terrible condition, severly below what China needs against the USN


Chinese nuclear subs is probably the most secretive area of the entire PLA. It is extremely likely we are vastly underestimating the number of Chinese SSNs ... indeed you can count the sheer number of 093A variants that exist, let alone how many SSNs of each variant were produced.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## samsara

*Does any one really have some idea, even the faintest one, about the below facility of BSHIC in Huludao, Liaoning?*

_- Has it been put into operation?_

_- What does it make?_

*TIME FLIES... *

-----------------------------------------

*China is building the world's largest nuclear submarine facility*

_It can build four subs at a time._

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer | Eastern Arsenal Column of *POPULAR SCIENCE - APRIL 2017*

_Giant Factory

When this enclosed submarine factory begins operation later this year, the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. (BSHIC) will be able to quickly build nuclear submarines. Assembling SSNs in a building also provides the advantage of sheltering against the weather, not to mention nosy spy satellites.

Starting later this year, China's new submarine factory on the Yellow Sea will churn out nuclear-powered attack submarines—also known as SSNs—all but ensuring that the sub program of the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) will be a deadly global force.

Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation is putting the finishing touches on its new facility, which will start production this year. BSHIC, based in Huludao, Liaoning Province, is China's only builder of nuclear submarines. It previously built the Type 091, 093 nuclear attack submarines (SSN) and Type 092 and 094 nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). Why is this building such a big deal? Simple, really: inside a superstructure, submarines are hidden from snoops, spies, and satellites. It also provides a controlled environment for development and construction._
...
as posted by @cirr
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinas-submarine-fleet-evolution-news.302638/page-26#post-9398947

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## IblinI



Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Figaro

IblinI said:


>


The video of the advanced 093A variant

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 664720
> 
> Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo


Some 093 variant?


----------



## Team Blue

Figaro said:


> Some 093 variant?


Looks like 094 to me. Fuzzy but the mid section looks like the wide flat top they have.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

Very rare footage of the 094 ... not sure what variant it is

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1307966136462512128

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

Via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86

Via @开心包子铺 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via @铁幕君SSS from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## LKJ86

Via 云天海

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## samsara

samsara said:


> *Does any one really have some idea, even the faintest one, about the below facility of BSHIC in Huludao, Liaoning?*
> 
> _- Has it been put into operation?_
> 
> _- What does it make?_
> 
> *TIME FLIES... *
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> *China is building the world's largest nuclear submarine facility*
> 
> _It can build four subs at a time._
> 
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer | Eastern Arsenal Column of *POPULAR SCIENCE - APRIL 2017*
> 
> _Giant Factory
> 
> When this enclosed submarine factory begins operation later this year, the Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. (BSHIC) will be able to quickly build nuclear submarines. Assembling SSNs in a building also provides the advantage of sheltering against the weather, not to mention nosy spy satellites.
> 
> Starting later this year, China's new submarine factory on the Yellow Sea will churn out nuclear-powered attack submarines—also known as SSNs—all but ensuring that the sub program of the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) will be a deadly global force.
> 
> Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industrial Corporation is putting the finishing touches on its new facility, which will start production this year. BSHIC, based in Huludao, Liaoning Province, is China's only builder of nuclear submarines. It previously built the Type 091, 093 nuclear attack submarines (SSN) and Type 092 and 094 nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). Why is this building such a big deal? Simple, really: inside a superstructure, submarines are hidden from snoops, spies, and satellites. It also provides a controlled environment for development and construction._
> ...
> as posted by @cirr
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinas-submarine-fleet-evolution-news.302638/page-26#post-9398947


*Chinese Increasing Nuclear Submarine Shipyard Capacity*

*By: H I Sutton | USNI News (2020-10-12)*





_Credit to H I Sutton at the USNI News_

As China pushes to become a blue-water power, *nuclear-powered submarines are critically important* to Beijing’s plan. Historically the Chinese Navy’s (PLAN) nuclear-powered submarine fleet has been *constrained by its limited construction capacity*. There is only one shipyard in the country up to the task. But that yard *has been undergoing a massive enlargement*. And now, recent satellite imagery suggests an *additional capacity expansion*.

China’s nuclear-powered submarine fleet was *already expected to get much larger in the coming years*. This latest development suggests that China could pump out submarines *at an even greater rate*.

*Just how many nuclear submarines China will build over the next ten years is a hot topic.* The Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) recently forecast China’s submarine fleet to grow by six nuclear-powered attack submarines by 2030. Other observers, such as retired Capt. James Fanell who was Director of Intelligence and Information Operations for the U.S. Navy’s Pacific Fleet, place their estimates even higher. *What seems clear is that the number of nuclear submarines will increase*.

Analysis of commercial satellite imagery reveals work on a NEW CONSTRUCTION HALL at the BOHAI SHIPYARD at Huludao. Liaoning Province. The building appears to be *essentially identical to the one built there in 2015*. That is widely believed to be for the *construction of a new generation of nuclear submarines*.

The NEW HALL is estimated to be large enough to allow construction of TWO submarines simultaneously. When added to THE OTHER HALL recently constructed, that would allow FOUR boats to be in the sheds at once. And there is another much older construction hall at the other end of the site which, if still active, could add another. So four or five boats at once.

The nuclear submarines include both ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) and attack submarines (SSN). All nuclear submarines are built at the Bohai shipyard, so its capacity will be a major factor in the total fleet strength.

China’s naval growth has not gone unnoticed in Washington. In response, the U.S. Navy will have to adjust. Outlining the proposed BATTLE FORCE 2045, *Defense Secretary Mark Esper said that the U.S. must begin building three Virginia Class submarines per year as soon as possible*. This would build a “larger and more capable submarine force”. The proposed force will include 70-80 attack submarines, described as “the most survival strike platform in a future great powers conflict”.

There are THREE NEW CLASSES of submarine which might be built at Bohai. The most straightforward is the Type-09IIIB (also written Type-093B). This is an iterative improvement on the current Type-09IIIA Class submarine. The main improvement expected is the inclusion of cruise missiles in vertical launch tubes. These will allow it to carry an increased load of cruise missiles, improving its strategic strike capability. The YJ-18 cruise missiles are generally analogous to the Russian Kalibr family of missiles. China already operates Kalibr from some of its submarines.

More advanced than the Type-09III family is the *next-generation Type-09V Class (aka Type -095)*. This is expected to be everything the Type-09IIIB is, and also stealthier.

The THIRD projected type is a *next-generation ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). the Type-09VI (Type-096)* will follow the current generation Type-09IV Class (Type-094). They are expected to augment the six Type-09IV instead of replacing them, leading to a net increase in China’s SSBN fleet. The 2020 China Military Power Report to Congress projected an increase to eight SSBNs by 2030.

*At this stage we are still learning new details of the BOHAI SHIPYARD expansion.* We have yet to see any submarines roll out of the new halls. And it is possible that the newest shed may be intended for some other purpose. *But the takeaway is that China is transforming its submarine construction capabilities*. The work at Huludao will remove the physical constraint which previously limited their nuclear navy.

Reactions: Like Like:
7 | Love Love:
1


----------



## juj06750

samsara said:


> As China pushes to become a blue-water power, nuclear-powered submarines are critically important to Beijing’s plan. *Historically the Chinese Navy’s (PLAN) nuclear-powered submarine fleet has been constrained by its limited construction capacity. There is only one shipyard in the country up to the task. *But that yard has been undergoing a massive enlargement. And now, recent satellite imagery suggests an additional capacity expansion.


again, false  our nuclear submarine construction capacity was NOT historically limited compared to other nuke countries; most has only one or two shipyards; US (groton, newport news), UK (barrow-in-furness), france (cherbourg), russia (severodvinsk), china (huludao); I really do NOT understand why US & western media always keep trying to blame and underestimate china; probably political reason than technique itself

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Figaro

juj06750 said:


> again, false  our nuclear submarine construction capacity was NOT historically limited compared to other nuke countries; most has only one or two shipyards; US (groton, newport news), UK (barrow-in-furness), france (cherbourg), russia (severodvinsk), china (huludao); I really do NOT understand why US & western media always keep trying to blame and underestimate china; probably political reason than technique itself


I don't see how Samsara is incorrect here. It is extremely evident that the massive expansion at Bohai has only taken place in the recent five years, with visible progress only dating since 2017. This is a matter of fact, not "blame and underestimate China." The truth is the reason why Chinese nuclear submarine production was quite low is because the PLAN decided to focus on quality instead of quantity. Now that the technology for the 09V/09VI (~Seawolf, Virginia classes) has matured, the submarine building capacity needs to be ramped up quickly.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## juj06750

Figaro said:


> I don't see how Samsara is incorrect here. It is extremely evident that the massive expansion at Bohai has only taken place in the recent five years, with visible progress only dating since 2017. This is a matter of fact, not "blame and underestimate China." The truth is the reason why Chinese nuclear submarine production was quite low is because the PLAN decided to focus on quality instead of quantity. Now that the technology for the 09V/09VI (~Seawolf, Virginia classes) has matured, the submarine building capacity needs to be ramped up quickly.


I don't see why americans view china like that; this US report sounds another matter of politics (rather than its claim itself); again, at this time, US media claims that chinese nuclear submarine capacity is historically limited; simply true once compared to US; but, let see, only US runs many nuclear submarines while others run only few; simply, UK/France/Russia/China nuclear submarine capacity are all limited, compared to US; I meant US never say so against UK/France, but it's saying so against China; it keeps reporting only against China; probably looking for writing another reports against China tomorrow


----------



## Deino

What do you think?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323557057220485120

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## samsara

_*TTT, now have increased confidence in this article from a week ago, suggesting that this is a new Submarine being built at Bohai, China -- NOV. 12, 2020*_



H I Sutton - Covert Shores










__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326806828680929282
Sutton (12 Nov.): “My initial assessment was based on this low-res Sentinel imagery.
Since then, have been able *to use other sources which broadly confirmed* what we are looking at, hence new sketch” (see below)







TTT = To The Top; used to promote a discussion thread to the top

*Probable First Image Of New Nuclear Submarine Under Construction In China*
*Flag As the Chinese Navy (PLAN) drives towards becoming a true blue-water Navy, nuclear submarines construction will have to increase. New Type-09V attack submarines and Type-09VI SSBNs are expected to compete with the latest Western models. The Bohai shipyard at Huludao has been expanded to meet the demand, but so far no submarines have emerged from its massive new halls.

New commercial satellite images, taken on November 2, appear to show a large submarine hull section outside the sheds. I have been waiting for exactly this.

-- link as given above; this 03-Nov article posted at the author's own blog is basically a redress of the below one posted at the USNI on 2020-10-12.

Tue 03 November 2020*
*By H I Sutton*


samsara said:


> *Chinese Increasing Nuclear Submarine Shipyard Capacity*
> 
> *By: H I Sutton | USNI News (2020-10-12)*
> 
> View attachment 683714
> 
> _Credit to H I Sutton at the USNI News_
> 
> As China pushes to become a blue-water power, *nuclear-powered submarines are critically important* to Beijing’s plan. Historically the Chinese Navy’s (PLAN) nuclear-powered submarine fleet has been *constrained by its limited construction capacity*. There is only one shipyard in the country up to the task. But that yard *has been undergoing a massive enlargement*. And now, recent satellite imagery suggests an *additional capacity expansion*.
> 
> China’s nuclear-powered submarine fleet was *already expected to get much larger in the coming years*. This latest development suggests that China could pump out submarines *at an even greater rate*.
> 
> *Just how many nuclear submarines China will build over the next ten years is a hot topic.* The Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) recently forecast China’s submarine fleet to grow by six nuclear-powered attack submarines by 2030. Other observers, such as retired Capt. James Fanell who was Director of Intelligence and Information Operations for the U.S. Navy’s Pacific Fleet, place their estimates even higher. *What seems clear is that the number of nuclear submarines will increase*.
> 
> Analysis of commercial satellite imagery reveals work on a NEW CONSTRUCTION HALL at the BOHAI SHIPYARD at Huludao. Liaoning Province. The building appears to be *essentially identical to the one built there in 2015*. That is widely believed to be for the *construction of a new generation of nuclear submarines*.
> 
> The NEW HALL is estimated to be large enough to allow construction of TWO submarines simultaneously. When added to THE OTHER HALL recently constructed, that would allow FOUR boats to be in the sheds at once. And there is another much older construction hall at the other end of the site which, if still active, could add another. So four or five boats at once.
> 
> The nuclear submarines include both ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) and attack submarines (SSN). All nuclear submarines are built at the Bohai shipyard, so its capacity will be a major factor in the total fleet strength.
> 
> China’s naval growth has not gone unnoticed in Washington. In response, the U.S. Navy will have to adjust. Outlining the proposed BATTLE FORCE 2045, *Defense Secretary Mark Esper said that the U.S. must begin building three Virginia Class submarines per year as soon as possible*. This would build a “larger and more capable submarine force”. The proposed force will include 70-80 attack submarines, described as “the most survival strike platform in a future great powers conflict”.
> 
> There are THREE NEW CLASSES of submarine which might be built at Bohai. The most straightforward is the Type-09IIIB (also written Type-093B). This is an iterative improvement on the current Type-09IIIA Class submarine. The main improvement expected is the inclusion of cruise missiles in vertical launch tubes. These will allow it to carry an increased load of cruise missiles, improving its strategic strike capability. The YJ-18 cruise missiles are generally analogous to the Russian Kalibr family of missiles. China already operates Kalibr from some of its submarines.
> 
> More advanced than the Type-09III family is the *next-generation Type-09V Class (aka Type -095)*. This is expected to be everything the Type-09IIIB is, and also stealthier.
> 
> The THIRD projected type is a *next-generation ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). the Type-09VI (Type-096)* will follow the current generation Type-09IV Class (Type-094). They are expected to augment the six Type-09IV instead of replacing them, leading to a net increase in China’s SSBN fleet. The 2020 China Military Power Report to Congress projected an increase to eight SSBNs by 2030.
> 
> *At this stage we are still learning new details of the BOHAI SHIPYARD expansion.* We have yet to see any submarines roll out of the new halls. And it is possible that the newest shed may be intended for some other purpose. *But the takeaway is that China is transforming its submarine construction capabilities*. The work at Huludao will remove the physical constraint which previously limited their nuclear navy.

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Love Love:
1 | Wow Wow:
1


----------



## samsara

*From H I Sutton @CovertShores on 2020.11.15:*

_#SubSunday **New** Submarine cutaway. What you need to know about #China Type-093A Shang-II Class SSN. 

The weapons load is more diverse than most Western submarines. In particular, China has developed both thermal and electric heavyweight torpedoes._









The Chinese Navy's Most Powerful Attack Submarine: The Type-093A - Naval News


Submarine expert H I Sutton takes a close look at China's Type 039A submarine and explains what makes it the most powerful attack submarine in the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN)'s arsenal.




www.navalnews.com




[Note: this is a new article on the Type 093A SSN dd. 2020-11-15 by Sutton]








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327901296570101765

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Love Love:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @人民海军 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86

Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4577729543077904?from=old_pc_videoshow

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

From Henri Kenhmann at East Pendulum on 2021.01.02:

_Developed by the *Chinese Navy University of Naval Medicine*, the new *submarine personal escape equipment* has been successfully tested in the East China Sea. Six submariners participated in the trials. The system allows *evacuation up to 200-meter deep*._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345370802519097344

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Love Love:
2


----------



## Last starfighter

*China Will Soon Have More Submarines Than America. That's Alarming.*
But one U.S. advantage can shift back the balance of power.
By Kyle Mizokami 
DEC 14, 2020




MARK SCHIEFELBEINGETTY IMAGES

China’s submarine fleet is on track to surpass America’s by 2030.
The problem is exacerbated by the U.S. Navy’s global mission set, requiring it to send submarines everywhere.
While this stat is alarming, including the sub fleets of allies like Japan and South Korea shifts the balance of power back away to an America-led coalition.
In the next 10 years, China will have more submarines than the U.S. Navy, as that country continues to both grow and upgrade its undersea fighting force. The U.S. will have 66 subs of all types by 2030, compared to China’s projected 76. But while the Navy’s submarine fleet will be the third largest in the world, after China and North Korea, raw numbers don’t quite tell the whole story.
China’s ongoing naval expansion is the largest since World War II. The People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has amassed a large force of cruisers, destroyers, and amphibious ships, and built the country’s first two aircraft carriers, with a third on the way.

READ THIS



Why Is the Navy Arming Nuclear Subs With Lasers?
In 1993, China counted 47 submarines, including one marginally useful _Xia_-class ballistic missile submarine, just five noisy _Han_-class nuclear powered attack submarines, 34 1950s-era _Romeo_-class diesel electric submarines, and six older _Ming_-class submarines. Simply put, China’s submarine force wasn’t terribly useful and was, at best, a coastal defense force.





A Type 094 _Jin_-class ballistic missile submarine. China currently has four such submarines, with another two under construction.
Now, after 27 years of double-digit defense spending increases, China’s sub fleet is a different beast altogether.

According to a Congressional Research Service report, by 2019, the PLAN consisted of four ballistic missile submarines, six nuclear-powered attack submarines, and 50 diesel electric attack submarines. All four ballistic missile submarines and all six nuclear attack submarines are new types, while 42 of the 50 diesel electric submarines are also new—the Type 39A, Russian _Kilo_ class, and _Yuan_-class submarines.
The PLAN, _Naval News _reports, isn’t done expanding. The U.S. Navy’s Office of Naval Intelligence projects China’s submarine fleet will grow to 76 submarines by 2030, bringing its total to 76. This includes a net increase of 16 boats, plus the replacement of the approximately eight remaining _Ming_-class submarines. It could also represent replacing one of two _Kilo_-class diesel electric attack submarines China purchased from Russia in the late 1990s.

Two of the subs will be equipped with long-range nuclear missiles; the Pentagon’s 2020 China Military report states a pair of Type 094 missile subs are in the process of fitting out, bringing China’s sea-based nuclear deterrent to six submarines.





USS _Indiana_, a _Virginia_-class nuclear powered attack submarine, off the coast of Florida, 2018.
NURPHOTOGETTY IMAGES
The U.S. submarine fleet will be pretty much static during the 2020-30 period, dropping slightly from 68 subs of all types to 66.

RELATED STORY



Pop Mech Meets the Deadly Seawolf Submarine
The U.S. Navy has fewer classes of submarines, including the older, improved _Los Angeles_-class attack submarines built in the 1980s and 1990s, the trio of _Seawolf_-class attack submarines, 14 _Ohio_-class ballistic missile submarines, and the newer _Virginia_-class attack submarines. All American submarines are nuclear-powered.
China’s submarine fleet has made dramatic advances, but it also faces problems. On one hand, most of the fleet is fairly modern and new. On the other, most of it still consists of diesel electric submarines with limited range, and Chinese subs aren't as quiet as American subs.

Only six out of China’s 56 attack submarines could cross the Pacific to threaten naval bases in Hawaii or the continental U.S. All of America’s submarines, however, could cross the Pacific to operate off the coast of the Asian mainland. Another problem? China has few real allies with submarine fleets of their own, with the exception of Pakistan and its fleet of five aging submarines.

YOU'LL LOVE THIS



The Sea Shadow, America's 'Invisible Warship'
The U.S. Navy is in for a slight dip in overall numbers, but things get better after the 2030 timeframe. The Navy’s new 30-year shipbuilding plan sees the service increasing the number of submarines built from two a year to generally three a year by 2025. The number of nuclear-powered attack submarines reaches a bottom of 50 in 2025, but gradually rebounds, reaching 61 by 2035 and 80 by 2051. The total number of all U.S. submarines will reach 93 by 2051 ... _if _the Navy is able to afford them.

Meanwhile, the 14 _Ohio_-class ballistic missile submarines are replaced by 12 new _Columbia_-class submarines, and the four _Ohio_-class cruise missile submarines fade from the force entirely. But there are hints they could be replaced by new boats based on the _Columbia_ submarine hull.





_Kenryu_, a _Soryu_-class attack submarine of the Japan Maritime Self Defense Forces, 2012.
The U.S. Navy has another, often invisible advantage over China: the submarine fleets of its allies. Japan has 22 diesel electric attack submarines, including 12 of the excellent _Soryu _class, while South Korea operates 18 smaller diesel electric attack submarines. Taiwan operates just two aging submarines, but is embarking on an effort to build eight new subs.

A future conflict in the Pacific would involve at least some, if not all, of these fleets, bolstering the Navy’s numbers.


----------



## Figaro

Indeed but until China deploys the 09Vs, their SSN fleet is still severely lacking against the USN. The 093B is comparable to the 688i, so the PLAN really needs the 09V to counter the Seawolf and Virginia class SSNs.


----------



## Titanium100

Chinas way to victory is EMP strike. With first strike policy and if the reverse happens they are finished. The submarines will be symbolic only and then they can rolle over unified europe.

Its like a 100 meter dash where you gotta get the yellow card by dashing out first


----------



## unrequitted_love_suzy

Isn't it a historic Irony that Russian submarines are code named Kilo ... 
Quantity makes for Quality ,


----------



## S10

Most of China's submarines are SSK, conventional boats with slower speed and diving depths. On top of that, less than half of those are equipped with AIP. Numbers doesn't tell the whole picture. In terms of capability, it will take at least 2 decades at current pace to be on par with USN in this area.

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Love Love:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via @南海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via @人民海军 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 704053
> 
> Via @南海舰队 from Weixin


From Henri Kenhmann at East Pendulum on 2021.01.07: 

_*According to the official South Sea Fleet account on Weixin, a "new submarine" assigned to this fleet left the base port for the first time in 2021.*_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347199024865021953

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 704836
> View attachment 704837
> View attachment 704838
> View attachment 704839
> 
> Via @北海舰队 from Weixin


From 逆襲 @horobeyo on 2021.01.08:

大连老虎尾，北海舰队039B出航 

图自北海舰队公众号

_Dalian Laohuwei, North Sea Fleet* 039B* set sail

Pictured from the North Sea Fleet Public Number_








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347569226391830528

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via 解放军画报

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via 舰船知识

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Deino

Wow  ... if true!









First Image Of China's New Nuclear Submarine Under Construction - Naval News


New commercial satellite imagery appears to show the first hull section of a new submarine in China. It could be either the first Type 095 / Type 09V Tang-class attack submarine (SSN) or the first Type 096 / Type 09VI ballistic missile sub (SSBN).




www.navalnews.com

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Wow Wow:
1


----------



## Akasa

Deino said:


> Wow  ... if true!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First Image Of China's New Nuclear Submarine Under Construction - Naval News
> 
> 
> New commercial satellite imagery appears to show the first hull section of a new submarine in China. It could be either the first Type 095 / Type 09V Tang-class attack submarine (SSN) or the first Type 096 / Type 09VI ballistic missile sub (SSBN).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.navalnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 712306



There was a recent CJDBY post by *fzgfzy* claiming that the 09-V and 09-VI might come soon.



https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2686561-1-9.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## samsara

From 逆襲 @horobeyo on 2021.02.01:

狗哥地图更新显示葫芦岛新黑鱼生产线开始产出一堆零件和一个大的构造。出处见图3

形状看应该是一个尾部分段，开口直径约12米，
09IV尾部没有12米宽，09III中间最宽处都没有12米，
判断是新型黑鱼

_An update to Google Earth's map shows that Huludao's new nuclear submarine production line began to produce a pile of parts and a large structure. The source is shown in Figure 3_

From the shape, it should be a tail section with an opening diameter of about 12 meters,
the tail of 09IV is not 12 meters wide, and the widest part in the middle of 09III is not 12 meters,
*it's a new type of nuclear submarine*

















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356211834823405568
新厂房车间长度接近300米，6扇拉门可同时打开3扇，6条轨距约7米的双轨，可转移SSN，相邻两道双轨内侧轨距约13米，可转移SSBN，新厂房可同时建造12条SSN，或3条SSBN，或2条SSBN+4条SSN。另有位于西南面的新建厂房，车间长度300米，4条双轨，图3、4为去年11月中旬到12月底近一个半月的建造进度。

可见跟过去10年在神盾舰规模上急速甩开其他国家并向米军接近相比，十四五、十五五这10年将在黑鱼上着重发力，时机已经成熟。

*The length of the workshop of the new plant is close to 300 meters*. Three of the six sliding doors can be opened at the same time. *Six double tracks* with a gauge of about 7 meters can transfer SSN. The inner track gauge of two adjacent double tracks is about 13 meters, which can transfer SSBN. *The new plant can build 12 SSNs, or 3 SSBNs, or 2 SSBNs + 4 SSNs at the same time.* 

*In addition*, there is a *new workshop in the southwest with a workshop length of 300 meters and four double tracks.* Figures 3 and 4 show the construction progress from the middle of November to the end of December last year for nearly a month and a half.

*It can be seen that compared with the past 10 years when Aegis ships rapidly outnumbered other countries and approached the USN, **the time is ripe for the 14th and 15th Five-Year Plans [2021-2025 & 2026-2030] to focus on the nuclear submarines.*












__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356216845255147523

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Henri Kenhmann at East Pendulum on 2021.02.01:

*Huludao, Bochuan Shipyard, November 11, 2020.*







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356235574206586887
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Alex Luck @AlexLuck9 on 2021.02.01:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356182749774659589

Reactions: Like Like:
7 | Love Love:
3


----------



## samsara

Deino said:


> Wow  ... if true!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First Image Of China's New Nuclear Submarine Under Construction - Naval News
> 
> 
> New commercial satellite imagery appears to show the first hull section of a new submarine in China. It could be either the first Type 095 / Type 09V Tang-class attack submarine (SSN) or the first Type 096 / Type 09VI ballistic missile sub (SSBN).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.navalnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 712306


*First Image Of China’s New Nuclear Submarine Under Construction*

_Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) reveals what appears to be the first publicly available image of China's new nuclear powered submarine. The commercial satellite image was taken by Maxar and is part of a recent Google Earth image refresh._

*By H I Sutton | Naval News | 01 Feb 2021*





The satellite image, taken by Maxar on 2020-11-11 and uploaded to Google Earth, shows the aft section of the submarine outside the construction hall.

*China has built a massive new yard for building nuclear submarines.* The site, near to the legacy Bohai shipyard [_Henri K calls it *Bochuan Shipyard**, Huludao*_] where all of China’s nuclear submarines are currently built, *is still being developed*. But the main construction halls have been complete for some time. New commercial satellite imagery, available to anyone via Google Earth, appears to show the first hull section of a new submarine.

The exact class of submarine has not yet been confirmed. But it is possibly either the first Type-095 Tang-class attack submarine (SSN) or the first Type-096 ballistic missile sub (SSBN).

The section is the tail of the submarine. This is to be expected as most submarines are assembled such that the nose (bow) comes out of the construction hall first. Witness US Navy and Royal Navy nuclear submarines for example.

*The new submarine will be part of the Chinese Navy’s (PLAN) massive expansion.* Nuclear powered submarines will be critical to its ambition of becoming a true blue-water Navy. New Type-095 (*more properly written Type-09V*) is an attack submarine which is expected to be more closely comparable to the US Navy’s Virginia-class. And the Type-096 (*Type-09VI*) which increase the survivability and reach of China’s at sea nuclear deterrent.

I first spotted the hull section in *Sentinel-2 *low-resolution commercial satellite imagery *in early November 2020*. That was before this high-resolution imagery became available.

*The hull section is approximately 30-32 meters long and roughly 11-12 meters across. This points to the new Type-095 and Type-096 boats.* The other possibility is an improved version of the current Type-093 Shang-class. This would logically be the *Type-093B cruise-missile optimized version*. This is expected to feature vertical launch tubes similar to the Russian Yasen-class. These will allow it to carry more *YJ-18 cruise missiles*.

_*However the approximate measurements are making the completely NEW classes a safer bet at this stage.*_

*These NEW classes will be more advanced than the Type-093, with increased levels of stealth.* The Type-095 in particular may become very relevant if the PLAN increases its prescience in the Indian Ocean.

Analysts using commercial satellite imagery, often Open Source, will be watching the submarine modules as they make their way to the construction hall. The next one should be the *machinery compartment*, followed by the *reactor compartment*. We will literally see the submarine in parts before it is assembled. However careful analysis will be needed to interpret what we are seeing.

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Love Love:
2


----------



## Figaro

samsara said:


> *First Image Of China’s New Nuclear Submarine Under Construction*
> 
> _Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) reveals what appears to be the first publicly available image of China's new nuclear powered submarine. The commercial satellite image was taken by Maxar and is part of a recent Google Earth image refresh._
> 
> *By H I Sutton | Naval News | 01 Feb 2021*
> 
> View attachment 712690
> 
> The satellite image, taken by Maxar on 2020-11-11 and uploaded to Google Earth, shows the aft section of the submarine outside the construction hall.
> 
> *China has built a massive new yard for building nuclear submarines.* The site, near to the legacy Bohai shipyard [_Henri K calls it *Bochuan Shipyard**, Huludao*_] where all of China’s nuclear submarines are currently built, *is still being developed*. But the main construction halls have been complete for some time. New commercial satellite imagery, available to anyone via Google Earth, appears to show the first hull section of a new submarine.
> 
> The exact class of submarine has not yet been confirmed. But it is possibly either the first Type-095 Tang-class attack submarine (SSN) or the first Type-096 ballistic missile sub (SSBN).
> 
> The section is the tail of the submarine. This is to be expected as most submarines are assembled such that the nose (bow) comes out of the construction hall first. Witness US Navy and Royal Navy nuclear submarines for example.
> 
> *The new submarine will be part of the Chinese Navy’s (PLAN) massive expansion.* Nuclear powered submarines will be critical to its ambition of becoming a true blue-water Navy. New Type-095 (*more properly written Type-09V*) is an attack submarine which is expected to be more closely comparable to the US Navy’s Virginia-class. And the Type-096 (*Type-09VI*) which increase the survivability and reach of China’s at sea nuclear deterrent.
> 
> I first spotted the hull section in *Sentinel-2 *low-resolution commercial satellite imagery *in early November 2020*. That was before this high-resolution imagery became available.
> 
> *The hull section is approximately 30-32 meters long and roughly 11-12 meters across. This points to the new Type-095 and Type-096 boats.* The other possibility is an improved version of the current Type-093 Shang-class. This would logically be the *Type-093B cruise-missile optimized version*. This is expected to feature vertical launch tubes similar to the Russian Yasen-class. These will allow it to carry more *YJ-18 cruise missiles*.
> 
> _However the approximate measurements are making the completely new classes a safer bet at this stage._
> 
> *These new classes will be more advanced than the Type-093, with increased levels of stealth.* The Type-095 in particular may become very relevant if the PLAN increases its prescience in the Indian Ocean.
> 
> Analysts using commercial satellite imagery, often Open Source, will be watching the submarine modules as they make their way to the construction hall. The next one should be the *machinery compartment*, followed by the *reactor compartment*. We will literally see the submarine in parts before it is assembled. However careful analysis will be needed to interpret what we are seeing.


Are we sure this is the 095/096 as opposed to the 093B?


----------



## samsara

Figaro said:


> Are we sure this is the 095/096 as opposed to the 093B?


See Horobeyo's post #1006, one post above Sutton's article -- sorry, just revamped my earlier post to add more tweets  he gave out the measurements why this cannot be other than a NEW TYPE of NUCLEAR SUBMARINE!!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## bshifter

Figaro said:


> Are we sure this is the 095/096 as opposed to the 093B?


If not constructing the new types now then when? You should be excited the new models rolling out of the factory.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Deino

samsara said:


> See Horobeyo's post #1006, one post above Sutton's article -- sorry, just revamped my earlier post to add more tweets  he gave out the measurements why this cannot be other than a NEW TYPE of NUCLEAR SUBMARINE!!





bshifter said:


> If not constructing the new types now then when? You should be excited the new models rolling out of the factory.




I agree with you and I'm also sure @Figaro is as happy as anyone here IF it would be indeed a new class. However several reliable poster including Rick Joe aka *Bltizo *and *Interstellar* at the SDF are leaning towards another 093: And as such I think to ask to be sure is nothing wrong.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## samsara

Deino said:


> I agree with you and I'm also sure @Figaro is as happy as anyone here IF it would be indeed a new class. However several reliable poster including Rick Joe aka *Bltizo *and *Interstellar* at the SDF are leaning towards another 093: And as such I think to ask to be sure is nothing wrong.


@Figaro posted his comment before I revamped my earlier post by adding the info posted by Horobeyo (thus I said 'sorry' dude ), so just a natural question.

I read Blitzo's exposition why it's more likely an expanded 09III-series than a new class in his opinion, while repeatedly emphasized that the TIMING is not yet ripe for the introduction of new class. But he gave no explanation on WHY the TIMING, in his own opinion, does not fit the NEW class. If he relies on whether there's any earlier "hint" / "discussion" / "leak" in Chinese forums or media as he stressed often, then this time he might be just wrong, that sub moreover the nuke-sub is simply out of touch. I don't want to argue too much that opinion. Moreover submarine things, even more on the strategic nuclear-powered subs as strategic assets, the pertinent info is really scarce(!)... so at the end it may look like no definite answer whether or not the TIMING is ripe for New Class, whether or not the New class is introduced until China decides to tell the world, or external resources spot their existence, etc (just keep in mind this stuff submerges under water, not on the surface). But let me ask all, how many years have elapsed since the notion of 09V and 09VI first circulated?

At this point of time, it's up to one's faith what to believe... the expanded 09III series (09IIIB ?) / other existing class, OR brand-new class. I just opt the latter.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Deino

samsara said:


> @Figaro posted his comment before I revamped my earlier post by adding the info posted by Horobeyo (thus I said 'sorry' dude ), so just a natural question.
> 
> I read Blitzo's exposition why it's more likely an expanded 09III-series than a new class in his opinion, while repeatedly emphasized that the TIMING is not yet ripe for the introduction of new class. But he gave no explanation on WHY the TIMING, in his own opinion, does not fit the NEW class. If he relies on whether there's any earlier "hint" / "discussion" / "leak" in Chinese forums or media as he stressed often, then this time he might be just wrong, that sub moreover the nuke-sub is simply out of touch. I don't want to argue too much that opinion. Moreover submarine things, even more on the strategic nuclear-powered subs as strategic assets, the pertinent info is really scarce(!)... so at the end it may look like no definite answer whether or not the TIMING is ripe for New Class, whether or not the New class is introduced until China decides to tell the world, or external resources spot their existence, etc (just keep in mind this stuff submerges under water, not on the surface). But let me ask all, how many years have elapsed since the notion of 09V and 09VI first circulated?
> 
> At this point of time, it's up to one's faith what to believe... the expanded 09III series (09IIIB ?) / other existing class, OR brand-new class. I just opt the latter.




Agreed!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Han Patriot

Figaro said:


> Are we sure this is the 095/096 as opposed to the 093B?


I don't think China would just leak out 095/096 so easily.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## bshifter

Deino said:


> I agree with you and I'm also sure @Figaro is as happy as anyone here IF it would be indeed a new class. However several reliable poster including Rick Joe aka *Bltizo *and *Interstellar* at the SDF are leaning towards another 093: And as such I think to ask to be sure is nothing wrong.


They are not authoritative that goes for you as well. Can you, Blitzio or other PLA watcher ever be 100% accurate in the assessments on the PLA development? No one offered bulletproof valid reasons why it could not be 095/096 am i wrong? I understand Figaro wants to be certain but based on the measurements and how many years have elapsed since the talks have been going on for these new classes AND the construction of this huge and new facility can only mean that 095/096 sooner or later will emerge from this factory. If time is not ripe then when is the time ripe? How backward can China be that we need to wait even much longer before China can build Virginia class types?

Read page 24


https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/2017_China_Military_Power_Report.PDF



DOD even predicted new classes would start construction in early 2020s three years ago.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Deino

bshifter said:


> They are not authoritative that goes for you as well. Can you, Blitzio or other PLA watcher ever be 100% accurate in the assessments on the PLA development? No one offered bulletproof valid reasons why it could not be 095/096 am i wrong? I understand Figaro wants to be certain but based on the measurements and how many years have elapsed since the talks have been going on for these new classes AND the construction of this huge and new facility can only mean that 095/096 sooner or later will emerge from this factory. If time is not ripe then when is the time ripe? How backward can China be that we need to wait even much longer before China can build Virginia class types?
> 
> Read page 24
> 
> 
> https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/Documents/pubs/2017_China_Military_Power_Report.PDF
> 
> 
> 
> DOD even predicted new classes would start construction in early 2020s three years ago.




What a funny post, no-one here is an authoritative to say 100% for sure and exactly due to this important factor on PLA watching critical questions, having doubts against any hypes claims is more than justified and in fact makes the difference between a more reliable analyst and fan-boys. 

As such, You want to tell me it MUST be the 095 - or more likely is one - only since none of these critics is authoritative and since we cannot prove this not as a 095 it MUST be one?? What a logic? 

Since I cannot prove, there are NO little green men on Mars - since I'm not authoritative - there must be some? And why is being sceptical always rated as if I would say China is "backward"?? 


By the way not being authoritative, "that goes for you as well"! 😉


----------



## bshifter

Deino said:


> What a funny post, no-one here is an authoritative to say 100% for sure and exactly due to this important factor on PLA watching critical questions, having doubts against any hypes claims is more than justified and in fact makes the difference between a more reliable analyst and fan-boys.
> 
> As such, You want to tell me it MUST be the 095 - or more likely is one - only since none of these critics is authoritative and since we cannot prove this not as a 095 it MUST be one?? What a logic?
> 
> Since I cannot prove, there are NO little green men on Mars - since I'm not authoritative - there must be some? And why is being sceptical always rated as if I would say China is "backward"??
> 
> 
> By the way not being authoritative, "that goes for you as well"! 😉



Then everytime there's some new photos showing some new construction everybody should be entitled to question whether it is what some other people claim it to be including you. Now that is funny considering you have been very actively telling others to stop making certain comments calling them BS.


----------



## Deino

bshifter said:


> Then everytime there's some new photos showing some new construction everybody should be entitled to question whether it is what some other people claim it to be including you. Now that is funny considering you have been very actively telling others to stop making certain comments calling them BS.



Why do you think any new photo should be questioned? 
I think there is a difference between something very clear and most reasonable. As an example if you see a J-20 with a zig-zag nozzle as we've seen it already it is most likely a WS-10C, if it is very much different, is eventually a WS-15 but not for sure, but it is surely not a Klingon warp-drive! 

In the same way if we see a blurry image of a new submarine, it is safe to be unsure if it is a 095 or 093, when no clear evidence for one or the other option is visible. 

Again, I am the last one who would not like to see a 095 or even 096, but from all i see it is IMO too early to open the bottles to celebrate ... and this is not as if I see china still backward but simply caution.


----------



## bshifter

Deino said:


> *Why do you think any new photo should be questioned?*
> I think there is a difference between something very clear and most reasonable. As an example if you see a J-20 with a zig-zag nozzle as we've seen it already it is most likely a WS-10C, if it is very much different, is eventually a WS-15 but not for sure, but it is surely not a Klingon warp-drive!
> 
> In the same way if we see a blurry image of a new submarine, it is safe to be unsure if it is a 095 or 093, when no clear evidence for one or the other option is visible.
> 
> Again, I am the last one who would not like to see a 095 or even 096, but from all i see it is IMO too early to open the bottles to celebrate ... and this is not as if I see china still backward but simply caution.



Didn't you say having doubts is more than justified? Of all the people this coming from you is a joke. What you mean is you are entitled to call other people's comments or questioning BS whenever you judge it to be. Figaro is questioning it and i threw a valid question back at him if not now then when? I don't see what is wrong with that.
I presented some valid reasons why there's a very high probability that new classes are constructed as we speak. I could care less what you, blitzo or some other guy at SDF claims are. You even have eye sight problems https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/type...carrier-news-discussions.416166/post-12909771


----------



## Deino

bshifter said:


> Didn't you say having doubts is more than justified? Of all the people this coming from you is a joke. What you mean is you are entitled to call other people's comments or questioning BS whenever you judge it to be. Figaro is questioning it and i threw a valid question back at him if not now then when? I don't see what is wrong with that.
> I presented some valid reasons why there's a very high probability that new classes are constructed as we speak. I could care less what you, blitzo or some other guy at SDF claims are. You even have eye sight problems https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/type...carrier-news-discussions.416166/post-12909771




Not sure what's your intention now! First of all Rick Joe is one of the most respected PLAN analysts out there, if You say "all the people this coming from you is a joke", then it tells me more about your own credibility than about his.

Also, I don't know what my eye-issues - which were meant as a joke - has anything to do with other member's stupid claims I indeed call BS. And again, you may rate this arrogance, but I claim to be correct to define a "estimation of the J-20's maximum thrust as higher than the SR-71 based on a speculative fuel consumption" as BS.

As such, no-one cares what you think and all i did is to call for being careful not right away jumping the bandwaggon only based on a blurry image that could also well be a 093.
Or in return- besides the factor of times, what makes you so sure it must be a 095?

Otherwise please accept that I have a different opinion, if you don't agree then it's fine, but that's no reason for insults.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## bshifter

Deino said:


> Not sure what's your intention now! First of all Rick Joe is one of the most respected PLAN analysts out there, if You say "all the people this coming from you is a joke", then it tells me more about your own credibility than about his.
> 
> Also, I don't know what my eye-issues - which were meant as a joke - has anything to do with other member's stupid claims I indeed call BS. And again, you may rate this arrogance, but I claim to be correct to define a "estimation of the J-20's maximum thrust as higher than the SR-71 based on a speculative fuel consumption" as BS.
> 
> As such, no-one cares what you think and all i did is to call for being careful not right away jumping the bandwaggon only based on a blurry image that could also well be a 093.
> Or in return- besides the factor of times, what makes you so sure it must be a 095?
> 
> Otherwise please accept that I have a different opinion, if you don't agree then it's fine, but that's no reason for insults.



Insults? How did i insult you or you felt insulted because i caught you to be unable to recognize a picture which was so obvious it was an aircraft carrier. Either eye sight problem or lack of intelligence or even imagination. If you couldn't even recognize that how on Earth you think you can judge my questioning Figaro? I suggest you move on instead of coming up with more excuses Western CHINA EXPERT as if everybody cares what Deino thinks. This has nothing to do with jumping on the bandwagon pal, get off from your high horse.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @人民海军 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## samsara

From 中国正能量 @Chinese__Energy on 2021.03.24:

今天，他离开我们了……
他是彭士禄，中国核潜艇第一任总工程师。
国之栋梁，吾辈楷模！致敬彭老，彭老一路走好

_Today (2021-03-22), he left us…… [at 96 years old]_
_He is *Peng Shilu*, the first chief engineer of Chinese nuclear submarine._
_The pillar of the country, the Chinese role model of our generation!
Salute to Peng Lao, Peng Lao all the way well [have a quick and smooth journey]_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1373981883722166277

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Sad Sad:
2


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377492701185200131

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
5


----------



## lcloo

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377492701185200131


Ha! I was surprised since the poster is HI Sutton. Then I check today's date. Good one!

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Haha Haha:
2


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

April Fool

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Deino

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377492701185200131




You won't believe it, I was right ... Indian regional news channel is reporting on that giant sub! 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378007289047576587

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
8


----------



## lcloo

Here is another one in youtube, the youtuber "MH Defence" talked as if it is a fact and gave a lot of supportive "fact" data, LOL!

The World is full of peope willingly spreading false information.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via @海军新闻 from Weixin

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## lcloo

A newly completed conventional powered submarine type 039B (new variiant for Thailand or Pakistan?) NATO code name "Yuan" spotted in Wuhan.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## samsara

lcloo said:


> A newly completed conventional powered submarine type 039B (new variiant for Thailand or Pakistan?) NATO code name "Yuan" spotted in Wuhan.
> 
> View attachment 742853


Chinese don't use the so-called "NATO code" for naming their assets. Type alone is sufficient. But thanks for the info.


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Love Love:
1 | Wow Wow:
1


----------



## samsara

*New Chinese Submarine Armed With Missiles Capable of Covering Entire US, Reports Say*

Sputnik News - 03 MAY 2021

BEIJING (Sputnik) - China's newly commissioned nuclear-powered submarine, dubbed the *Type 094A*, is equipped with ballistic missiles capable of hitting targets *at a distance of 10,000 kilometres* (6,200 miles) — the most powerful in the country, the South China Morning Post reported, citing a military source.

_*"The Type 094A is an upgraded version of the Type 094 that overcame one of the key problems – noise – by improving hydrokinetic and turbulent systems, allowing it to carry the more powerful JL-3"*_, the source was quoted as saying on Sunday.

Before the upgrade, the submarine was capable of firing the inferior JL-2 that could only hit the northeast United States, the source said, noting that currently, it is able to cover the whole American continent.

The newspaper also reported, citing a military expert, that the new weapon would boost China's ability to retaliate after a nuclear strike.

The new nuclear submarine, showcased last week as part of the celebration to mark the 72nd anniversary of the Chinese navy, is *armed with the JL-3*, or Julang, submarine-launched ballistic missile, the newspaper said.

The Asian country currently *has six Type 094 and Type 094A submarines*, with each able to *carry 16 JL-3 missiles*.



https://sputniknews.com/military/202105031082789606-new-chinese-submarine-armed-with-missiles-capable-of-covering-entire-us-reports-say/

Reactions: Like Like:
6 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Polestar 2

16 JL-3 missile? I think they need to recount again.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## samsara

*China urged to increase sea-based nuclear deterrent amid US intensified strategic threat*

By Zhang Hui
Published: May 28, 2021 08:45 PM
Updated: May 29, 2021 06:50 PM

*Facing a serious strategic threat from the US, China was urged to increase the number of nuclear weapons, especially its sea-based nuclear deterrent of intercontinental submarine-launched ballistic missiles, to deter potential military action by US warmongers, Chinese military experts said on Friday, after reports that the US' new defense budget will modernize its nuclear arsenal to deter China.* 

Having a nuclear arsenal appropriate to China's position will help safeguard national security, sovereignty and development interests and establish a more stable and peaceful world order, which will be beneficial for the world, they said.

The US defense budget, set to be sent to Congress on Friday, is expected to include investments in troop readiness, space, and the Pacific Deterrence Initiative aimed at countering China's military existence in the region, and nuclear weapons technology, Reuters reported on Thursday. 

However, Chinese military experts believe that US attempts of increasing military deployment in the Indo-Pacific region will not increase returns for the US as most countries in the region will not allow the flames of war initiated by the US to burn themselves. 

The US would buy ships and jets and develop and test hypersonic weapons and other "next-generation" weapons systems to build capabilities to counter Russia and China. *The total national security budget will be $753 billion, a 1.7 percent increase over the 2021 figure*, Reuters said. 

*China has kept its defense spending at around 1.3 percent of GDP in recent years*, which is far below the average global level of 2.6 percent, data shows. The US, by far the world's top military spender, has spent about four times that of China in recent years.

*Chinese analysts said China has never taken aim at US military spending, nor does China want to engage in any form of arms race with the US.* 

But the US has applied greater military pressure on China, sending warships and warplanes at an increasing frequency to the South China Sea and Taiwan Straits.

The US is also preparing what US media called its "biggest navy exercise in a generation with 25,000 personnel across 17 time zones," as it's preparing for a "possible conflict" with China and Russia. 

The US attempted to deepen the militarization of space with its new budget plan, including its investment on future weapons. Considering that the US deems China its top imaginary enemy, *China needs to increase the quantity and quality of nuclear weapons, especially submarine-launched ballistic missiles*, to effectively safeguard its national security, sovereignty and development interests, Song Zhongping, a Chinese military expert and TV commentator, told the Global Times on Friday. 

Some military experts said China should increase the number of its most advanced intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM),* the DF-41*, which has the longest operational range among all Chinese ICBMs. 

Song said that *strengthening sea-based strategic nuclear deterrence is also an important direction* for China's future development, as these weapons are *better at stealth and secondary nuclear strikes*. 

China could use its *most advanced submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) to effectively counter the US threat*, Song said. 

China just commissioned three PLA Navy warships, namely the Changzheng 18, the Dalian and the Hainan, at a naval port in Sanya, South China's Hainan Province in April. *Observers identified the Changzheng 18 as a likely Type 09IV nuclear-powered strategic ballistic missile submarine.* 

Burning themselves

The *US Pacific Deterrence Initiative, created to counter China*, focuses on competition in the Indo-Pacific and aims to boost US preparedness in the region by funding radars, satellites and missile systems, according to Reuters. 

Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military expert, told the Global Times on Friday that the initiative enables the US to use a variety of spy satellites to conduct reconnaissance and intelligence gathering to provide extensive and accurate intelligence support for US military operations, including joint military operations with its allies, and the US will also use allies, such as US overseas military bases, to deploy more radar systems to guide its weapons.

On the day its budget was sent to Congress, US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin was expected to meet with India's Minister of External Affairs, Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, as part of India's first cabinet-level visit to Washington, the Pentagon said. 

"The secretary's meeting with the external affairs minister will continue discussions that the two held in New Delhi in March and will continue the robust bilateral defense and security relationship between our two countries," the Pentagon said. 

Chinese military experts said it's likely that India would buy more American weapons, have more military drills with the US or deepen its cooperation with the US in military intelligence sharing, and the US will use these in exchange for India's cooperation for its Indo-Pacific strategy. 

But India will have second thoughts on US military deployment on its soil, Song said, noting that weapons and radar deployment involves a country's sovereignty, and India, which has been claiming to pursue an independent foreign policy, will unlikely give the US a satisfactory answer.

Even if India would like to deepen its military cooperation with the US, certain cooperation such as opening military bases to the US is not an option for India, Song said. 

India may not be a very ideal partner, and most of US allies in Asia, including Japan and South Korea, also fear that the flames of war would eventually burn themselves. 

In South Korea, protests against US military presence have become louder in the past years, and South Korea will not allow the US to turn Northeast Asia into a battlefield and drag itself into war, nor will it sacrifice its relations with China, observers said. 

Zhang Junshe, a senior research fellow at the PLA Naval Military Studies Research Institute, told the Global Times on Friday that *Australia is likely to allow the US to deploy more military equipment on its soil, making it the only US friend on its Indo-Pacific strategy*. 

*By doing this, Australia will make itself a target for future military conflicts between the US and other countries*, Zhang said, adding that a responsible government which really cares about the interests of its people would never allow it.









China urged to increase sea-based nuclear deterrent amid US intensified strategic threat - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Love Love:
1 | Wow Wow:
1


----------



## ozranger

Polestar 2 said:


> 16 JL-3 missile? I think they need to recount again.


Obviously 12.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1406617296743796742

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Amavous

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1408284806148935682




The new submarine, part of the Yuan family of designs, features a distinctive stealthy sail. A chine runs along the upper part creating sloping surfaces which may be intended to reduce the radar cross-section when surfaced.

*The New Mystery Submarine Seen In China: What We Know*
*At the height of the Cold War defense analysts often tried to piece together information about a new types of submarine seen outside shipyards. Today this is playing out again, only in China. A new submarine, with an unusual sail, has recently emerged.*
H I Sutton  25 Jun 2021

The ability to keep your submarine designs secret may confer a tactical or strategic advantage in the future. Yet they are also massive projects which most countries cannot keep completely secret. The US Navy’s submarine building plans for example, are known years in advance. Not in China. On May 12 2021 we got our first *view of a new submarine* which was ready to be launched at a shipyard in Wuhan. This creates a lot of analysis, and some wild speculation.

Since May a brief segment of video and another candid photograph have come to light, enabling a deeper analysis. The submarine is currently on the Huangpu River in Shanghai, in the vicinity of 31°15’22.49″N, 121°32’38.71″E.

Before dealing with what we know, we should highlight something which we do not. We don’t know it’s name or designation.

Western observers have taken to referring to it as the Type-039*C* or –*D*. The last letter refers to it being either the third or forth (depending on who you ask) major variant of the existing Type-039A Yuan Class. These letters, including for the previous -B model, have been given by Western observers. Although they are widely used in defense circles, and I myself have been guilty of this, the Chinese Navy hasn’t shared their actual designations. So all of these might be wrong.

By far the most distinctive feature of the new submarine is the sail. This has an angled upper section with an angled chine running along it. The angles created resemble the fuselages of stealth fighter planes and may reduce its radar cross-section when it is on the surface. This would make it more stealthy when entering or leaving port. We can speculate that it may have hydrodynamic advantages, such as reducing the wake while at periscope depth.




The mystery submarine is currently in a river in Shanghai. Despite masses of people nearby photos are still extremely rare. Includes material © CNES 2021, Distribution Airbus DS all rights reserved / PLEIADES satellite imagery. Acquired through ShadowBreak Intl
The reshaped sail also creates significant volume near its top which may be used to house new systems. However, overall the sail is not larger than the previous Yuan class boats. So unless there is a significant reduction in the size of the masts, it seems unlikely that houses anything substantial.

*Swedish Influence? The A-26 Class*
Because of the angled sail there is a natural comparison with the Swedish A-26 Blekinge Class submarine. Superficially it look similar. And it is possible that the Swedish design, which has been public for many years, was an inspiration. But on closer examination, there is only a general resemblance and they are actually quite different.

The Swedish submarine features much more blended lines with a curved leading edge of the sail merging seamlessly into the casing. The Chinese boat has a much straighter leading edge and less blended lower section. The hydroplanes are also positioned differently with the Swedish ones being along the line of the chine. The Chinese boat has them in the same position as previous Yuan class boats, which places them lower and further forward.

Unlike many countries building non-nuclear submarines, including the Swedes, Chinese designers have not adopted X-form rudders. Instead the traditional cruciform arrangement is retained. The upper rudder now has a towed array sonar (TAS) cable running through it. This may hint at a significant sensor upgrade for the class as previous Yuans had not been reported with towed arrays.

While comparisons with the Swedish A-26 are natural, it is worth noting that Chinese designers have come up with similar ideas in the past. Angled faces where added to the upper section of aType-035 Ming class submarine in around 2010. Only a small part was modified so it wouldn’t have had much effect when the boat was fully surfaced. But it may have been beneficial when only this section was above the waves.

It’s also too long ago to suggest that it was directly related to the new submarine, but it shows that the thinking was already there. So with this in mind observers should not rush to brand the new boat a copy of the A-26.

Overall the Swedish A-26 is a less compromised design, while the Chinese one is constrained by the pre-existing structure of the Yuan class. In essence it is a radical reshaping of the sail and, to an extent the casing, but still on the same frame.




The Swedish A-26 Blekinge Class also features an angled sail. The similarities are only superficial however and while it may have been an influence, it is hardly a copy. Photo Saab.

*Potent Submarine*
This does not take away from the potential potency of the new submarine. But it does cast it as an iterative improvement of the Yuan Class rather than an all-new submarine.

Overall the new boat is approximately the same length as the earlier Yuans. This suggests that it hasn’t had an extra compartment added to accommodate vertical launch tubes for missiles. Or some radically new power plant.

These submarines are also equipped with Air independent Power (AIP). This likely uses a closed-cycle Stirling engine, similar to that on the A-26 class, to power the submarine when submerged. This means that it doesn’t have to snorkel to run its diesel generators, to recharge the batteries. Being able to run submerged for much longer greatly increases stealth. The trade-off is that the AIP generates less power so the submarine has to move slowly.

Note that the AIP powers the electric motor directly. It is a common misunderstanding that it recharges the batteries in lieu of the diesel generator. For this reason the diesels are retained.

There is speculation that China may have fitted lithium-ion batteries. These offer a much greater power density and may even make AIP unnecessary. However experts cannot agree and it is a cae of wait and see,

Like previous Yuan Class boats it is likely to be armed with a range of weapons including wire-guided torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and mines. And there is the possibly that it can carry land-attack cruise missiles, shot out through the torpedo tubes.

The new submarine may be experimental, or possibly for export, so there is lots more that we do not know. The element of mystique is partly what will keep observers watching it more closely than other types.









The New Mystery Submarine Seen in China: What We Know - Naval News


At the height of the Cold War defense analysts often tried to piece together information about a new types of submarine seen outside shipyards. Today this is playing out again, only in China. A new submarine, with an unusual sail, has recently emerged.




www.navalnews.com

Reactions: Like Like:
8 | Wow Wow:
2


----------



## PakAlp

Amazing. Pakistan ordered 8 Submarines, 4 of them can be from this upgraded class.


----------



## FairAndUnbiased

They say that it is 'inspired' by A-26. No, it is the opposite. A-26 was inspired by this.

Because while this ship is in the water, the A-26 is on PowerPoints only.

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Love Love:
1 | Haha Haha:
2


----------



## Ali_Baba

Given the cost of the Yuan programme for Pakistan, and the long timelines, there is every possible reason that this new variant is the Pakistani variant that the PN have financed and are waiting for.


----------



## lcloo

Just to reflect what H I Sutton wrote
" While comparisons with the Swedish A-26 are natural, it is worth noting that *Chinese designers have come up with similar ideas in the past. Angled faces where added to the upper section of aType-035 Ming class submarine in around 2010*. Only a small part was modified so it wouldn’t have had much effect when the boat was fully surfaced. But it may have been beneficial when only this section was above the waves. "

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1405383299929808899

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

China launched the Type 094 (SSBN) image. It was officially released for the first time.

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Daniel808

*Nice pics of Type 039C Subs*
(Images via wb/羽麟军-狐狸酱)

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Love Love:
2


----------



## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> China launched the Type 094 (SSBN) image. It was officially released for the first time.
> View attachment 757510



What is that metrial structure in the middle of submarine for ? Does not feel like it would be that stealthy.


----------



## Oldman1

Ali_Baba said:


> What is that metrial structure in the middle of submarine for ? Does not feel like it would be that stealthy.


Those are missile silos. They are tall to accommodate the missiles like that because they are obviously tall.

Ours are like that.


----------



## JSCh

China reveals secret programme of unmanned drone submarines since 1990s


Declassified details suggest drone submarine, which can detect a craft and use AI to identify its origin, was test-fired in Taiwan Strait without human input.




www.scmp.com

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## samsara

JSCh said:


> China reveals secret programme of unmanned drone submarines since 1990s
> 
> 
> Declassified details suggest drone submarine, which can detect a craft and use AI to identify its origin, was test-fired in Taiwan Strait without human input.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scmp.com


Article @SCMP is *behind the Paywall *


----------



## JSCh

samsara said:


> Article @SCMP is *behind the Paywall *





https://archive.vn/5TmMX

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1 | Wow Wow:
1


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463938676199608324

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Angry Angry:
1


----------



## Shotgunner51

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466241270855061517

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Shotgunner51

From:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470575945379872773

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## S10

Shotgunner51 said:


> View attachment 801236



From this photo we can conclude a few things.

1. No VLS for land cruise attack. Weapons are exclusively fired from torpedo tubes.

2. Addition of towed array from that bump behind conning tower, to increase its passive detection capability on top of the main bow sonar.

3. At least a few boats are in active service if they openly reveal it like this.

4. Related to the point above, we should expect to see 095 fairly soon.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shotgunner51

S10 said:


> From this photo we can conclude a few things.
> 
> 1. No VLS for land cruise attack. Weapons are exclusively fired from torpedo tubes.
> 
> 2. Addition of towed array from that bump behind conning tower, to increase its passive detection capability on top of the main bow sonar.
> 
> 3. At least a few boats are in active service if they openly reveal it like this.
> 
> 4. Related to the point above, we should expect to see 095 fairly soon.


Yep that pretty much sums it up for 093 series. I guess total 8~9 hulls built by now, the class is like "052B/C-era" of DDG as described by Alex Luck, each hull is slightly modified until PLAN is finally satisfied with a frontline design aka 095. With so much public exposure of 093 recently I believe this class has come to fruition, no more ship of this class will be built, and 095 may enter mass production soon becoming the 052D of SSN.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453247241238495239

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yep that pretty much sums it up for 093 series. I guess total 8~9 hulls built by now, the class is like "052B/C-era" of DDG as described by Alex Luck, each hull is slightly modified until PLAN is finally satisfied with a frontline design aka 095. With so much public exposure of 093 recently I believe this class has come to fruition, no more ship of this class will be built, and 095 may enter mass production soon becoming the 052D of SSN.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1453247241238495239



The Type 095 is most likely the Type 055 of the SSN.

And the Type 093B is equivalent to the Type 052D in the SSN world.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

China's New Mystery Submarine 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473127892037300224


----------



## Super Falcon

technology which china is offering in these subs european dominace in submarine xport is numbered


----------



## Shotgunner51

One more 094 SSBN spotted in the dry dock at Huludao, Dec 2021

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Shotgunner51

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487802070459883520

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## NW-Blue

Shotgunner51 said:


> One more 094 SSBN spotted in the dry dock at Huludao, Dec 2021
> 
> View attachment 809464




So what's the guestimate on the total number of 094 now? Based on open sourced data there were already 6 in service, so this makes it 7 now? 

I know it's entirely possible that China hides some extra ones that the public doesn't know, and my question is only for the number based on what the public knows.


----------



## Shotgunner51

NW-Blue said:


> So what's the guestimate on the total number of 094 now? Based on open sourced data there were already 6 in service, so this makes it 7 now?
> 
> I know it's entirely possible that China hides some extra ones that the public doesn't know, and my question is only for the number based on what the public knows.


Remember this news coverage from last April when 1 was commissioned? 3 or 4 more were spotted in the background. My guesstimate is there are 7~8 hulls in service now, almost same number as 093 SSN but slightly less. Adding the new one spotted in Huludao in December, making total 8~9.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## NW-Blue

Shotgunner51 said:


> Remember this news coverage from last April when 1 was commissioned? 3 or 4 more were spotted in the background. My guesstimate is there are 7~8 hulls in service now, almost same number as 093 SSN but slightly less. Adding the new one spotted in Huludao in December, making total 8~9.
> 
> View attachment 813724



Yes, you are right! I forgot the new one went into service at the last Navy celebration event. So this should make it at least 8 in service now. 

8x12 = 96 launch tubes, and at least 96 warheads. That's enough to put any country in paralyze if not decimated. I guess when China has 20 or more in service, no one in the West will call China a threat anymore


----------



## Shotgunner51

NW-Blue said:


> Yes, you are right! I forgot the new one went into service at the last Navy celebration event. So this should make it at least 8 in service now.
> 
> 8x12 = 96 launch tubes, and at least 96 warheads. That's enough to put any country in paralyze if not decimated. I guess when China has 20 or more in service, no one in the West will call China a threat anymore


Yes that's adequate to annihilate an enemy country. Each JL-2A/AG (navalized version of DF-31A/AG ICBM) can deliver a 1 megaton thermonuclear warhead, or MIRV with several 150 kiloton thermonuclear warheads.

Well I guess given limited defence budget (1.18% of GDP) ten to twelve 094 SSBN would suffice at the moment, fielding 120~144 JL-2A/AG missiles. Focus will be on getting next gen 096 (with JL-3 aka navalized version of DF-41) inducted asap.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## NW-Blue

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yes that's adequate to annihilate an enemy country. Each JL-2A/AG (navalized version of DF-31A/AG ICBM) can deliver a 1 megaton thermonuclear warhead, or MIRV with several 150 kiloton thermonuclear warheads.
> 
> Well I guess given limited defence budget (1.18% of GDP) ten to twelve 094 SSBN would suffice at the moment, fielding 120~144 JL-2A/AG missiles. Focus will be on getting next gen 096 (with JL-3 aka navalized version of DF-41) inducted asap.



Yes, I know China is building 096s, and the photos of new huge sub assembly line buildings a couple of years ago clearly indicated that a ramped up production rate than 094 is likely. This is the right thing to do - have absolutely power to wipe any country off the planet a couple of times, is the only equilibrium to balance out the war mongering country of you know who, as well as all their other lapdogs, to even contemplating the idea of starting a war with China. 

In a jungle world where the west only respect the idea of "might is right", that's the only way to maintaining peace. China already has this ability today with the Great Wall underground tunnels for mobile ICBMs which no one knows how many China has, but adding another 6-10 096 boomers, along with the 8-9 094 already in service, will make the message loud and clear that starting a war with China equals to commit suicide, especially to the China-hate WASP elites and the anti-Asian rednecks in the US. So the idea uttered by a little white boy on a TV show in the US several year ago that "we just kill all the Chinese" (so we don't have to pay the debt to China) would never come across their mind again. They never talk like that with regarding to Russia, and we all should know why.

In fact, this should be the priority number 1 for China's defense strategy in the next decade until enough 096 boomers are in service. I'd even go as far as suggesting to China's leadership to cut funding to the ground forces, and use the money to quickly beef up the strategic nuke sub force, as well as ASW attack subs like the next gen 095 and ASW planes. The war mongers in the US has been openly talking about preparing war with China in the SCS because the US sub force advantage. China needs to invest heavily and quickly to boost its ASW capabilities, and all those fancy tanks, artilleries, land attack missiles, etc., will be of no value for any likely battles at sea, and since US isn't able to or not going to invade China on land anyway, China should spend all defense budget to prepare and secure the resources for the upcoming battle at sea that the war mongers in the US is itching to start a fight.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## HRK

Anyone have any idea about this new submarine design ... ???


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491057274978447360

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491007669897146370

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## HRK

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491007669897146370

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491057274978447360
Would really appreciate If someone could inform about this new Chinese submarine

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shotgunner51

HRK said:


> Anyone have any idea about this new submarine design ... ???


Looks like they are testing MS-200, an export-oriented small sub for littoral/SOF warfare, first revealed in Bangkok 2017.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## jaybird

HRK said:


> Anyone have any idea about this new submarine design ... ???
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491057274978447360
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491007669897146370



There is an article about it on thedrive.









New Chinese Diesel-Electric Submarine Breaks Cover


The latest Chinese submarine design to emerge remains enigmatic but seems to utilize a notably small hull.




www.thedrive.com





New Chinese Diesel-Electric Submarine Breaks Cover​ 
The latest Chinese submarine design to emerge remains enigmatic but seems to utilize a notably small hull.​ 
By Thomas Newdick February 8, 2022
Another new and previously unknown Chinese submarine design has appeared, continuing the country’s prodigious naval shipbuilding program. The emergence of this submarine comes after a new subclass of a conventionally-powered type broke cover last year and the reveal of a highly intriguing “sail-less” design three years before that, though there are no clear indications one way or another that any of these are directly related to each other.

Video showing the new Chinese submarine underway, apparently taken during early tests, appeared earlier today on social media. The submarine is a relatively small design, likely significantly smaller than the Type 039 _Yuan_ class, several iterations of which have already appeared. H. I. Sutton, an author and an expert on submarine warfare, estimates that the new submarine is around 160 feet long, compared to a little over 250 feet for the Type 039A.
Sutton has suggested that the size of the new Chinese submarine design might point to a relationship of some kind to the mysterious sail-less type that first appeared in 2018. Based on satellite imagery, that earlier design has been assessed as being around 150 feet long, much closer to this new boat. Sutton believes the new design likely features a single hull, which would be another parallel with the still-unnamed sail-less type, while the Type 039 features a double hull.

Of course, the presence of a sail signals a major diversion from the sail-less design, and the sail is itself noteworthy. Blending smoothly into the hull, its configuration is broadly reminiscent of those found on the German Type 212 and Type 214 designs, among others developed around the world, but which has not been seen so far on Chinese submarines. However, such a shape has previously appeared on some Chinese submarine models, including the MS200 midget submarine, S600 small patrol submarine, and the larger S1100 design, all from the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation, or CSIC. So far, however, there is no indication that the new design is necessarily a CSIC product.


China is also believed to be working on even more advanced propulsion technologies, including lithium-ion batteries of the type used in Japan’s latest _Soryu_ class submarines. Compared even to some AIP configurations, these offer a number of advantages, including increased endurance at high speeds when submerged, quicker charging and longer battery life, and reduced maintenance requirements. Running on pure battery power is also the quietest option available. There has been speculation that the Type 039C may use lithium batteries, perhaps as a testbed for these and other advanced technologies that may then find their way onto production submarines.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shotgunner51

NW-Blue said:


> Yes, I know China is building 096s, and the photos of new huge sub assembly line buildings a couple of years ago clearly indicated that a ramped up production rate than 094 is likely. This is the right thing to do - have absolutely power to wipe any country off the planet a couple of times, is the only equilibrium to balance out the war mongering country of you know who, as well as all their other lapdogs, to even contemplating the idea of starting a war with China.





NW-Blue said:


> ASW attack subs like the next gen 095 and ASW planes


Well said! But no worry, PLARF already has no less than 294 megatons of thermonuclear firepower decades ago, enough to annihilate all enemy countries, by now I guess PLARF stockpile should be close to 700~800 megatons with induction of DF-5B, 31AG, 41 & CJ-100 etc.

However future wars will be decided at the seas, hence #1 priority of PLAN investment in coming years (in conjunction with PLASSF's space & EW combat units) would be her *strategic capabilities*, both defensive and offensive aka second strike. Strategic defense will be centered on a network of 055 DDG acting as forward deployed ballistic sensor + mid course interceptor (& ASAT), and offensive on 094/096 SSBN with JL-2/3 sub-launched ICBM.







When it comes to ASW, PLAN's current package of 056A + Y-9ASW + 039B + UAV is impeccable in littoral waters against enemy subs or underwater SOF. The challenge will be in open seas and so both 054A FFG and 093/095 SSN will be required in large numbers.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Beast

Iran would love this new midget submarine. There are some parts of sea area where only this type of midget sub can access.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Abid123

How many anti ship missiles can the Yuan class submarine carry?


----------



## Beast

Abid123 said:


> How many anti ship missiles can the Yuan class submarine carry?


That will depend on your mission configuration. But given the size of Yuan, I am not surprised if it can carry 24 torpedoes.

Btw, new news regard RTN submariner development. China offer 2 refurbished Song to RTN, most likely only refurbished fee are needed. They will be good enough for training or backup in combat mission. 7 skewed blade, and most modern outlook designed. They are far better than Ming 035G sold to Myanmar and Bangladesh. 









China offers two decommissioned Song-class submarines to Royal Thai Navy







www.thaipbsworld.com

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wergeland

Shotgunner51 said:


> Looks like they are testing MS-200, an export-oriented small sub for littoral/SOF warfare, first revealed in Bangkok 2017.



These would be a perfect choice for Bangladesh Navy for patrolling its shallow bay of bengal territorial waters.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shotgunner51

Wergeland said:


> These would be a perfect choice for Bangladesh Navy for patrolling its shallow bay of bengal territorial waters.


Indeed. While the 039 Yuan is really big (3600 tons, second only to Sōryū class), these smaller subs could be useful in shallow waters or archipelago. Also less demanding on manpower, say the smallest MS-200, displacing 200 tons with two torpedo tubes, it only needs 6 crew to operate, and can carry 8 SOF commando.

The S-600 and S-1100 in the series are bigger while still good for littoral warfare.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wergeland

Shotgunner51 said:


> Indeed. While the 039 Yuan is really big (3600 tons, second only to Sōryū class), these smaller subs could be useful in shallow waters or archipelago. Also less demanding on manpower, say the smallest MS-200 only needs 6 crew to operate, and can carry 8 SOF commando.



Since they are cheaper and smaller, a whole swarm of them could be deployed at once. Would be nightmare for any enemy to try track down all those subs.

What kind of armament is availible on these midget subs? Any cruise missiles? AsBM or LACMs?


----------



## Shotgunner51

Wergeland said:


> Since they are cheaper and smaller, a whole swarm of them could be deployed at once. Would be nightmare for any enemy to try track down all those subs.
> 
> What kind of armament is availible on these midget subs? Any cruise missiles? AsBM or LACMs?


For the MS-200, there are two torpedo tubes, and four on S-600. I believe these two subs can fire light weight torpedo, but not BM or CM. They are for missions like recon, surveillance, special op infiltration, patrol.

For the S-1100 there are four torpedo tubes, standard 533mm, they can fire both heavy weight torpedo and CM. Not BM.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wergeland

A mixture of MS200 and S-1100 would be excellent. For BD lets say 20-50 piece MS200 + 6-10 S-1100 would be a reasonbly deterence.









China's CSIC Unveils Three New Submarine Designs for Export


China's CSIC Unveils Three New Submarine Designs for Export




www.navyrecognition.com


----------



## Shotgunner51

Wergeland said:


> A mixture of MS200 and S-1100 would be excellent. For BD lets say 20-50 piece MS200 + 6-10 S-1100 would be a reasonbly deterence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's CSIC Unveils Three New Submarine Designs for Export
> 
> 
> China's CSIC Unveils Three New Submarine Designs for Export
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.navyrecognition.com


Yes it is. The new sub designs are highly automatic, even the biggest S-1100 only takes 18 crew to operate, very human resources friendly.


----------



## hualushui

Small, unmanned, silent, South China Sea.
Maybe in the future US nuclear submarines will often hit "seamounts"


----------



## Shotgunner51

hualushui said:


> Small, unmanned, silent, South China Sea.
> Maybe in the future US nuclear submarines will often hit "seamounts"


Not sure about this "accident", but enemy subs may get rammed by some unmanned subject again in the future, if not torpedo. I guess this is how such ramming works:

Guanlan Marine Guard observed the approximate position and depth of enemy sub, sent the data to the Super Measurement Center in Jinan
Type 056 or 927 (underwater acoustic detection ship) dispatched for accurate tracking
Y9-ASW use sonic bombs to drive enemy sub towards kill zone of the AI controlled robotic HSU-001 unmanned submarine (or a torpedo with kinetic warhead).

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Shotgunner51



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/hj/2022-03/25/content_10143491.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/18/content_10141631.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/28/content_10144106.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86

Via @北海舰队 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Shotgunner51

Some fresh imagery (3/2022) from the new PLAN nuclear submarine shipyard at Huludao. It looks like they're just about done building the last big building. You can now see the transfer setup where they'll take roll the submarines out on tracks from the right and into the blue transfer dock, then lower that into the larger drydock. The transfer dock is about 33mx215m, should be big enough for SSBNs and other large submarines.






It really is striking what the nation can do to build new facilities, here's the site in 2009:






Credits: @tshugart3

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Love Love:
1


----------



## S10

Shotgunner51 said:


> Some fresh imagery (3/2022) from the new PLAN nuclear submarine shipyard at Huludao. It looks like they're just about done building the last big building. You can now see the transfer setup where they'll take roll the submarines out on tracks from the right and into the blue transfer dock, then lower that into the larger drydock. The transfer dock is about 33mx215m, should be big enough for SSBNs and other large submarines.
> 
> View attachment 833325
> 
> 
> It really is striking what the nation can do to build new facilities, here's the site in 2009:
> 
> View attachment 833327
> 
> 
> Credits: @tshugart3



Well I hope China can speed up the construction of its nuclear subs, especially 095 and 096. The Americans have a very distinctive numerical and quality advantage currently, and may be counting on their submarine flee to intervene in Taiwan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shotgunner51

S10 said:


> Well I hope China can speed up the construction of its nuclear subs, especially 095 and 096. The Americans have a very distinctive numerical and quality advantage currently, and may be counting on their submarine flee to intervene in Taiwan.


There is no conventional way that US sub fleet can interfere in Taiwan, it's too close to the continent and surrounding seas are well within PLASSF/PLAN's littoral ASW network (Guanlan + Y-9ASW + SSK039 + 056A/927/HSU001 + CH6), USS Connecticut is an example.









China’s Submarine Fleet, Evolution & news


Would really appreciate If someone could inform about this new Chinese submarine



defence.pk




Yes bro, expansion of Huludao shipyard serves the purpose of mass producing 095/096. Primary mission of 096 is joining PLARF in full-scale thermonuclear strike on CONUS aka WWIII scenario. US sub fleets (and the Tridents they carry) in the open seas are dealt with by other ASW/BMD assets like 054A, 055, 095 & several orbital situational awareness networks.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MajesticPug

S10 said:


> Well I hope China can speed up the construction of its nuclear subs, especially 095 and 096. The Americans have a very distinctive numerical and quality advantage currently, and may be counting on their submarine flee to intervene in Taiwan.



A stronger submarine force is always needed. Considering the likely scenarios in the Ukraine conflict, China needs to rely on its navy, most importantly subs, to implement blockage and counter blockage should a war over Taiwan take place.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via @_老年_ from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Abid123

How much better is the Type 039C from the Type 039B PN will be receiving?


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> How much better is the Type 039C from the Type 039B PN will be receiving?


We are getting latest and modified version of Type 41 Yuan class ,its export Name is Type 26, you should look to this thread in Pakistan navy section









Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions


The Type-039/041 "Yuan" class conventional submarine, likely the basis for the export-centric S20. Photo credit: Wikipedia Bilal Khan - PAKISTAN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION CONFIRMS SUBMARINE CONTRACT The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) confirmed in its 2014-2015 report that a...



defence.pk

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/15/content_10148218.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## S10

Shotgunner51 said:


> There is no conventional way that US sub fleet can interfere in Taiwan, it's too close to the continent and surrounding seas are well within PLASSF/PLAN's littoral ASW network (Guanlan + Y-9ASW + SSK039 + 056A/927/HSU001 + CH6), USS Connecticut is an example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s Submarine Fleet, Evolution & news
> 
> 
> Would really appreciate If someone could inform about this new Chinese submarine
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes bro, expansion of Huludao shipyard serves the purpose of mass producing 095/096. Primary mission of 096 is joining PLARF in full-scale thermonuclear strike on CONUS aka WWIII scenario. US sub fleets (and the Tridents they carry) in the open seas are dealt with by other ASW/BMD assets like 054A, 055, 095 & several orbital situational awareness networks.



American subs can launch cruise missiles towards China or anti-ship missiles towards the landing fleet. More importantly, they can ambush Chinese shipping lanes in South China Sea or Malacca strait. While American surface vessels could be kept at bay with DF-21D, DF-17 and H-6K, their SSNs are much more difficult to deter.

Never underestimate or discount your opponent. Russia is paying a high price for doing so at this very moment.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ozranger

S10 said:


> American subs can launch cruise missiles towards China or anti-ship missiles towards the landing fleet. More importantly, they can ambush Chinese shipping lanes in South China Sea or Malacca strait. While American surface vessels could be kept at bay with DF-21D, DF-17 and H-6K, their SSNs are much more difficult to deter.
> 
> Never underestimate or discount your opponent. Russia is paying a high price for doing so at this very moment.


They will face a drastic escalation as it is well known that only the US military has substantial capability to attack or ambush China forces or commercial shipping. That's why China is expanding its nuclear arsenal to such a scale that the Americans won't have any chance to think about an ambush.


----------



## S10

ozranger said:


> They will face a drastic escalation as it is well known that only the US military has substantial capability to attack or ambush China forces or commercial shipping. That's why China is expanding its nuclear arsenal to such a scale that the Americans won't have any chance to think about an ambush.



I think Americans will have made their mind up about going to war with China the moment they militarily intervene. It will be a calculated decision. Hoping Americans won't consider escalation with attacking Chinese military targets is naive.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Shotgunner51

S10 said:


> American subs can launch cruise missiles towards China or anti-ship missiles towards the landing fleet. More importantly, they can ambush Chinese shipping lanes in South China Sea or Malacca strait. While American surface vessels could be kept at bay with DF-21D, DF-17 and H-6K, their SSNs are much more difficult to deter.
> 
> Never underestimate or discount your opponent. Russia is paying a high price for doing so at this very moment.


No, they can't interfere with Taiwan in any conventional way including use of LACM or AShM from SSN/SSGN's, distance do not allow, their subs will stay far away from Guanlan + Y-9ASW, SSK039 + 056A/927/HSU001 + CH6, i.e. >2000km from shore. Surface vessels are equally if not even more vulnerable to land-based weapons, Russia has already paid a high price for doing so.

The only way for US subs to interfere with Taiwan is strategic showdown, aka (1) launch Trident ICBM and escalate to WWIII (2) Naval blockade at Malacca Strait or IOR or Suez Canal or other and escalate to WWIII. Never underestimate or discount of your opponent's will to go full-scale nuclear Armageddon, nor ours.


----------



## S10

Shotgunner51 said:


> No, they can't interfere with Taiwan in any conventional way including use of LACM or AShM from SSN/SSGN's, distance do not allow, their subs will stay far away from Guanlan + Y-9ASW, SSK039 + 056A/927/HSU001 + CH6, i.e. >2000km from shore. Surface vessels are equally if not even more vulnerable to land-based weapons, Russia has already paid a high price for doing so.
> 
> The only way for US subs to interfere with Taiwan is strategic showdown, aka (1) launch Trident ICBM and escalate to WWIII (2) Naval blockade at Malacca Strait or IOR or Suez Canal or other and escalate to WWIII. Never underestimate or discount of your opponent's will to go full-scale nuclear Armageddon, nor ours.



And Russia was supposed to have eliminated the Ukrainian air and naval capabilities in the first week of war. How did that go? In case of American intervention, losses will inevitably be high and operations significantly hindered.

You are extremely confident of China's ability to find and deter American subs, when China's ASW capability was PLAN's weakest link just 5 years ago. Your ASW assets are not going to be able to provide proper coverage when the sea and air are contested. Americans operate the quietest and most capable nuclear subs in the world, and you act like there is some magical shield that prevents them from entering 2000km within Chinese coast that works 100% of the time.

If that's not unrealistic optimism, I don't know what is.

Reactions: Like Like:
 2


----------



## Shotgunner51

S10 said:


> And Russia was supposed to have eliminated the Ukrainian air and naval capabilities in the first week of war. How did that go? In case of American intervention, losses will inevitably be high and operations significantly hindered.
> 
> You are extremely confident of China's ability to find and deter American subs, when China's ASW capability was PLAN's weakest link just 5 years ago. Your ASW assets are not going to be able to provide proper coverage when the sea and air are contested. Americans operate the quietest and most capable nuclear subs in the world, and you act like there is some magical shield that prevents them from entering 2000km within Chinese coast that works 100% of the time.
> 
> If that's not unrealistic optimism, I don't know what is.


You just answered your question: Russia paid an hefty price by staying too close to the shore, didn't they? Even when they are supposed to have eliminated the Ukrainian naval capabilities in the first week of war, their own navy get wack near the coast.

You are extremely confident of US ability to operate subs within 2000km from China's shore, when China's land-based ASW capability isn't like 5 years ago. Your "quiestest" subs are not going to be able to operate freely when the sea and air near the coast are contested, and you act like there is some magic wand US subs can wave that guarantees 100% safe from "undersea mountain" near Chinese coast.

If that's not unrealistic optimism, I don't know what is.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Shotgunner51 said:


> You just answered your question: Russia paid an hefty price by staying too close to the shore, didn't they? Even when they are supposed to have eliminated the Ukrainian naval capabilities in the first week of war, their own navy get wack near the coast.
> 
> You are extremely confident of US ability to operate subs within 2000km from China's shore, when China's land-based ASW capability isn't like 5 years ago. Your "quiestest" subs are not going to be able to operate freely when the sea and air near the coast are contested, and you act like there is some magic wand US subs can wave that guarantees 100% safe from "undersea mountain" near Chinese coast.
> 
> If that's not unrealistic optimism, I don't know what is.



I think this is a tad too optimistic. Up until the last decade China didn’t start mapping out undersea features of South/East China sea yet. Such efforts usually take a long time.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MajesticPug

Shotgunner51 said:


> No, they can't interfere with Taiwan in any conventional way including use of LACM or AShM from SSN/SSGN's, distance do not allow, their subs will stay far away from Guanlan + Y-9ASW, SSK039 + 056A/927/HSU001 + CH6, i.e. >2000km from shore. Surface vessels are equally if not even more vulnerable to land-based weapons, Russia has already paid a high price for doing so.
> 
> The only way for US subs to interfere with Taiwan is strategic showdown, aka (1) launch Trident ICBM and escalate to WWIII (2) Naval blockade at Malacca Strait or IOR or Suez Canal or other and escalate to WWIII. Never underestimate or discount of your opponent's will to go full-scale nuclear Armageddon, nor ours.


S10 said in '_SCS_' and you answered scenarios in TW Strait. You're way too 'optimistic' on China's ASW abilities. Launching missiles from Mainland China and hoping they will hit a sub is like hoping a dollar lottery ticket will win you the jackpot. Americans will not engage China in the TW Strait (period)


----------



## S10

Shotgunner51 said:


> You just answered your question: Russia paid an hefty price by staying too close to the shore, didn't they? Even when they are supposed to have eliminated the Ukrainian naval capabilities in the first week of war, their own navy get wack near the coast.
> 
> You are extremely confident of US ability to operate subs within 2000km from China's shore, when China's land-based ASW capability isn't like 5 years ago. Your "quiestest" subs are not going to be able to operate freely when the sea and air near the coast are contested, and you act like there is some magic wand US subs can wave that guarantees 100% safe from "undersea mountain" near Chinese coast.
> 
> If that's not unrealistic optimism, I don't know what is.


Yeah real mature answer.

US deployed 2/3 of its navy in the Pacific region, which means majority of its submarines will be there too. Even the oldest 688i Los Angeles class can give 093A a run for its money, not to mention completely outclassing 039A/B/C in speed, diving depth, armament. Americans hold a definitive numerical and technological edge in this regard. You're under the assumption that Americans subs will be 100% intercepted by China's ASW within 2000km of China's coast, which not even USN in its wildest dreams can monitor that massive of an area constantly. I was being nice by calling you overly optimistic. It's straight up a pipe dream. Having a few new toys doesn't give you ASW superpowers in a few years. These things take decades and still nothing is guaranteed in war.

China has some advantages near its shores, but acting like anything within 2000km of China is untouchable by US is simply silly.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Luosifen

Taiwan Strait is too shallow to hide SSNs, especially after a noisy launch of torpedoes/missiles. What USN subs can do is launch at PLAN ships in blockade positions on the Eastern side of Taiwan where the waters are deeper and USAF/USN aviation can provide better cover to keep ASW patrol planes at bay.


----------



## Oldman1

Luosifen said:


> Taiwan Strait is too shallow to hide SSNs, especially after a noisy launch of torpedoes/missiles. What USN subs can do is launch at PLAN ships in blockade positions on the Eastern side of Taiwan where the waters are deeper and USAF/USN aviation can provide better cover to keep ASW patrol planes at bay.


At least someone here can read a map and see how it could work.


----------



## MajesticPug

Luosifen said:


> Taiwan Strait is too shallow to hide SSNs, especially after a noisy launch of torpedoes/missiles. What USN subs can do is launch at PLAN ships in blockade positions on the Eastern side of Taiwan where the waters are deeper and USAF/USN aviation can provide better cover to keep ASW patrol planes at bay.


The surface vessels will be attacked by DF missiles and destroyed or driven away so ASW can be launched. The American DOD ran dozens of war games against China and none gave them a positive result. What you proposed is nothing out of the ordinary.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Luosifen

MajesticPug said:


> The surface vessels will be attacked by DF missiles and destroyed or driven away so ASW can be launched. The American DOD ran dozens of war games against China and none gave them a positive result. What you proposed is nothing out of the ordinary.


I don't doubt the PLARF be able to inflict heavy losses on USN surface fleet within range, but the USN sub fleet is capable of inflicting casualties on the PLAN in the contested waters east of the island. The ASW aircraft like the Y-8 would be juicy targets for F-22 and F-35s operating with refueling support until their bases are knocked out or J-20s can shoot down their tankers. The wargames indicated that Taiwan could not be defended (and Taiwan was always expendable as Ukraine is), but if the US goal is to degrade PLA combat strength by sniping from a distance this is doable. Whether the USA can bear the political consequences to get involved is an entirely different matter.

Getting back on track though, the best way to counter the USN sub fleet is to have your own sub fleet to match them, of course we won't know how well the type 095 SSNs will close the gap qualitatively with current USN boats, but I don't doubt China's ability to outbuild and eventually outnumber them such that the USN will have to posture more defensively in the coming years as PLAN SSNs patrol near US West Coast in the coming years.


----------



## Shotgunner51

S10 said:


> Yeah real mature answer.
> 
> US deployed 2/3 of its navy in the Pacific region, which means majority of its submarines will be there too. Even the oldest 688i Los Angeles class can give 093A a run for its money, not to mention completely outclassing 039A/B/C in speed, diving depth, armament. Americans hold a definitive numerical and technological edge in this regard. You're under the assumption that Americans subs will be 100% intercepted by China's ASW within 2000km of China's coast, which not even USN in its wildest dreams can monitor that massive of an area constantly. I was being nice by calling you overly optimistic. It's straight up a pipe dream. Having a few new toys doesn't give you ASW superpowers in a few years. These things take decades and still nothing is guaranteed in war.
> 
> China has some advantages near its shores, but acting like anything within 2000km of China is untouchable by US is simply silly.


It's childish if not silly to assume ASW is sub vs sub like it's a boxing game, especially near shores.

That's why I didn't even bother to bring 093/095 (which are SSN) into the picture of hunting down your subs near our shores, cos it's called littoral warfare, a term perhaps alien to armchair generals. There is no diving depth for you cos waters are shallow, if you try to speed up you loose quietness, not to mention it will be your pipe dream to outrun even the slowest warplanes (Y-9ASW) or UAV (CH-6) above you. Better stay stealth cos that's what subs do best, wait for Guanland Marine Guard, 056A or 927 to pick you up.

Good that you know we have "some" advantages near our shores, we cannot 100% guarantee giving you another "undersea mountain" moment but neither you can guarantee your own safety. Acting like your subs will be perfectly safe to interfere with Taiwan is dark homor, welcome to try.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
1


----------



## MajesticPug

Luosifen said:


> I don't doubt the PLARF be able to inflict heavy losses on USN surface fleet within range, but the USN sub fleet is capable of inflicting casualties on the PLAN in the contested waters east of the island. The ASW aircraft like the Y-8 would be juicy targets for F-22 and F-35s operating with refueling support until their bases are knocked out or J-20s can shoot down their tankers. The wargames indicated that Taiwan could not be defended (and Taiwan was always expendable as Ukraine is), but if the US goal is to degrade PLA combat strength by sniping from a distance this is doable. Whether the USA can bear the political consequences to get involved is an entirely different matter.
> 
> Getting back on track though, the best way to counter the USN sub fleet is to have your own sub fleet to match them, of course we won't know how well the type 095 SSNs will close the gap qualitatively with current USN boats, but I don't doubt China's ability to outbuild and eventually outnumber them such that the USN will have to posture more defensively in the coming years as PLAN SSNs patrol near US West Coast in the coming years.



I don't doubt the importance of building more capable subs. In fact, I believe it's the number 1 priority fo PLAN, highly over the attention-grabbing aircraft carriers. What I described was the tactics that PLA can do *given the current PLAN strength* and *over the TW conflict*. It's not surprising the US will try to lure PLA to fight far away from its land-based missile supports, and PLA tries to keep the conflict as close to the mainland as possible. Beijing planners know full well ultimately there'll be fights deep and far away from its mainland. Subs, 055, and carriers will have to carry the burden of winning these battles.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/23/content_10149627.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

S10 said:


> Yeah real mature answer.
> 
> US deployed 2/3 of its navy in the Pacific region, which means majority of its submarines will be there too. Even the oldest 688i Los Angeles class can give 093A a run for its money, not to mention completely outclassing 039A/B/C in speed, diving depth, armament. Americans hold a definitive numerical and technological edge in this regard. You're under the assumption that Americans subs will be 100% intercepted by China's ASW within 2000km of China's coast, which not even USN in its wildest dreams can monitor that massive of an area constantly. I was being nice by calling you overly optimistic. It's straight up a pipe dream. Having a few new toys doesn't give you ASW superpowers in a few years. These things take decades and still nothing is guaranteed in war.
> 
> China has some advantages near its shores, but acting like anything within 2000km of China is untouchable by US is simply silly.



When all the surface vessels of the USN are gone, do you think their subs alone can withstand all the bombardment from the sky?

The modern drones with strong ASW ability with AI will be the worst nightmare even for the most silent nuclear subs.

The LA class are all close to the age of retirement, and the metal structure of the hull cannot hold any longer when its lifespan is close to the end, and no way it can beat the most recent nuclear subs built by China.

Heck, the USN even treats its elite nuclear sub the Seawolf class like cr@p, and if they would ever try to use the older LA class to poke China, it will turn out to be an even bigger embarrassment for them.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-05/09/content_10153039.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/hj/2022-05/26/content_10157984.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/01/content_10159310.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Brainsucker

Shotgunner51 said:


> You just answered your question: Russia paid an hefty price by staying too close to the shore, didn't they? Even when they are supposed to have eliminated the Ukrainian naval capabilities in the first week of war, their own navy get wack near the coast.
> 
> You are extremely confident of US ability to operate subs within 2000km from China's shore, when China's land-based ASW capability isn't like 5 years ago. Your "quiestest" subs are not going to be able to operate freely when the sea and air near the coast are contested, and you act like there is some magic wand US subs can wave that guarantees 100% safe from "undersea mountain" near Chinese coast.
> 
> If that's not unrealistic optimism, I don't know what is.


Actually Ukraine war also teach us that Ukraine doesn't has anything to counter Russian's Kalibir or something missiles attack from their sub. And have to pay a huge price that their supply line being hit periodically. And they're just hide under Black sea. Not SCS nor East China Sea.


----------



## Brainsucker

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> When all the surface vessels of the USN are gone, do you think their subs alone can withstand all the bombardment from the sky?
> 
> The modern drones with strong ASW ability with AI will be the worst nightmare even for the most silent nuclear subs.
> 
> The LA class are all close to the age of retirement, and the metal structure of the hull cannot hold any longer when its lifespan is close to the end, and no way it can beat the most recent nuclear subs built by China.
> 
> Heck, the USN even treats its elite nuclear sub the Seawolf class like cr@p, and if they would ever try to use the older LA class to poke China, it will turn out to be an even bigger embarrassment for them.



The problem is that they also have land based military assets near you. From Okinawa, Taiwan, Miyako Strait, etc. You can flattened them with your long range arti and missiles, but they can also destroy your high value land based assets when both sides bombard each others. Who know what they will destroy in your shore when missiles exchange between the strait is happening. Will that moment weakened your anti sub capability, to give access to US Subs to SCS freely? Or your vital long range radar that can give access to US air assets to bombard China? Nobody know.


----------



## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/19/content_10164216.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/hj/2022-06/22/content_10165310.htm


----------



## MajesticPug

Saw a HK news video a couple days ago about Ma (who's credited with China's _electromagnetic catapult EMALS_ on 003 and the _electromagnetic gun_ development) completing the development of *electromagnetically-launched torpedoes*. I couldn't find much, or any, info from English sources. It's said that the electromagnetically-launched torpedoes have advantages over traditional lauching methods. An experienced anti-sub sonar tech could detect a traditional torpedo launch from afar and could triangulate the location of the sub. The Soviet innovated an water-compresssed launching system that lowers the sound made by the traditionally launched system but the sub would have to launch from lower depth and cause imbalanced movements(?) of the sub. The *electromagnetical launching system *does not have either of these problems and will greatly make the launching of torpedoes quieter and increase the survival of the sub after launching.

I'm not a submarine or any weapon system expert and I'm not sure if other people have already discussed this system in depth. But it seems to me the news are from the last couple days and not in any English source. I'm just sharing and perhaps some of you experts can shed some light on the system.

Link Youtube: China's electromagnetically-launched torpedoes

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Brainsucker said:


> The problem is that they also have land based military assets near you. From Okinawa, Taiwan, Miyako Strait, etc. You can flattened them with your long range arti and missiles, but they can also destroy your high value land based assets when both sides bombard each others. Who know what they will destroy in your shore when missiles exchange between the strait is happening. Will that moment weakened your anti sub capability, to give access to US Subs to SCS freely? Or your vital long range radar that can give access to US air assets to bombard China? Nobody know.



The air strikes from the aircraft cannot be faster than the hypersonic missiles.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## JSCh

Photo of what seems to be China's new submarine revealed in official report - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548965633387216896

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/hj/2022-07/20/content_10172137.htm


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-08/15/content_10178330.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/hj/2022-08/16/content_10178507.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-08/23/content_10179366.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## FuturePAF

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 095 is most likely the Type 055 of the SSN.
> 
> And the Type 093B is equivalent to the Type 052D in the SSN world.


Some Western sources (including one that probably personally tracked Chinese subs) still claim Chinese SSNs and SSBNs are very loud, even in silent patrol mode. IF that is the case, and still the case with the Type 095, what are the chances the Russians maybe willing to sell their Yasen-M technology to China, at a considerable price, and that China would be willing to buy it, to leapfrog to nearly the same level as the current USN submarines?

Granted, a lot of the public data on Chinese maybe outdated, but sub designs take longer then any other platform to catch-up. Perhaps the PLAN “Olympics” experimental submarine was a single hull design modeling what a future type 095 would look like, and the PLAN may have caught up. But while the PLAN catches up to where the USN is now in a number of years, the new block of Virginia and columbia boats will have been built.

Besides quieting the subs, there is automation, reactor, communications, and weapons technology that the Russians have developed over nearly the last century, and “combat” tested over decades of patrols.

A lot of the technology could be applied to SSKs and sold to a lot of countries as well. 



https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/202544/chinas-noisy-new-boomer/


----------



## foxhoundbis

FuturePAF said:


> Some *Western sources* (including one ... still claim Chinese SSNs and SSBNs are very loud...



If you want to save your time, energy, attention, etc...Don't give them attention. Nearly all western media, and institutions, nearly all deserve to be despised. 
The only thing they can provide is only propaganda. No one in the world except the Chinese top brasses can tell you the truth about the ultra-secret topic of Chinese submarines.


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.plapic.com.cn/pub/2022-08/29/content_10181270.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## FuturePAF

foxhoundbis said:


> If you want to save your time, energy, attention, etc...Don't give them attention. Nearly all western media, and institutions, nearly all deserve to be despised.
> The only thing they can provide is only propaganda. No one in the world except the Chinese top brasses can tell you the truth about the ultra-secret topic of Chinese submarines.


But will the Chinese top brass release that kind of data? In this niche domain, we only have to go on the word of both sides and figure out who is telling the truth.


----------



## foxhoundbis

FuturePAF said:


> But will the Chinese top brass *release that kind of data*?


Chinese top brasses may release data if the US will release one day, data about their SLBM Trident D-5. U do know what I mean....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2022-09/12/content_4920679.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## LKJ86



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-11/04/content_10196197.htm


----------



## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1


----------



## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------

