# Pakistan To Participate In Turkey’s TFX Next-Gen Fighter Aircraft Program



## Zarvan

Turkish Air Force concept for fifth generation multi-role fighter-bomber aircraft
- A +
Turkey has invited Pakistan to participate in the development of its next-generation fighter program, TFX.

Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain in an interview with PTV last Sunday, said that Turkey had requested Islamabad to be part of the development program for its next-generation fighter aircraft.

Turkey is evaluating proposals for purchasing training aircraft for the Turkish Air Force, and Pakistan’s Super Mushshak trainer aircraft is a leading contender. A final decision is likely soon.

As for future collaboration, both countries are in discussions over possible cooperation on Turkey's first indigenous FX Fighter Jet program, Anadolu agency had quoted unnamed sources as saying in June this year.

Pakistan and Turkey are also collaborating on building a new warship fleet tanker. Pakistan’s Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) has launched a 17,000-tonne heavy Warship fleet tanker, which was being constructed by the company in collaborating with the Turkish firm Savunma Teknologiler Muhendisilik (STM) Sunday.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...ext_Gen_Fighter_Aircraft_Program#.V7x6cSNRXqB

Reactions: Like Like:
31


----------



## fitpOsitive

aala bhai ji.....behtareen.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hassan Guy

If Pakistan joins the program, they have to develop the single engine variant. Variant for PAF, while Turkey's can still be dual engine.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## !eon

Hassan Guy said:


> If Pakistan joins the program, they have to develop the single engine variant. Variant for PAF, while Turkey's can still be dual engine.


Why ?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Hassan Guy

!eon said:


> Why ?



See Turkey is building this jet to work with it's F-35 fleet. Which is single engine, and Pakistan won't be getting any F-35's. We most probably will be getting J-31 which is dual engine. Plus Single engine have good benefits for PAF such as costs etc.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Hassan Guy

Ind4Ever said:


> Good finally Pakistan dumped Chinese mal
> 
> 
> Jf 17 will nə developed into stealth in block 4



No it won't.


----------



## Tipu7

Jf17 basic airframe will remain same even if more black are developed in future. There is no such thing as stealth jf17.

And no, J31 will also become part of PAF in future. There is good possibility that initial blocks of both F16 & Jf17 will be replaced by TFX & J31 respectively......


Ind4Ever said:


> Good finally Pakistan dumped Chinese mal
> 
> 
> Jf 17 will nə developed into stealth in block 4

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Hassan Guy

Tipu7 said:


> Jf17 basic airframe will remain same even if more black are developed in future. There is no such thing as stealth jf17.
> 
> And no, J31 will also become part of PAF in future. There is good possibility that initial blocks of both F16 & Jf17 will be replaced by TFX & J31 respectively......



That is why Pakistan will need a TFX variant to be single engine, J-31 is already dual.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Reichsmarschall

Ind4Ever said:


> Good finally Pakistan dumped Chinese mal



China became the worlds Third largest arms exporter.

J20 entered limited production, Other than US, how many other states are producing stealth fighter jets?

China conducted a seventh successful flight test of its hyper sonic glide vehicle, which travels at speeds between 4,000 and 7,000 miles per hour. How many other states have this other than US and Russia?

Has an operational ASAT system. Other than US and Russia how many other states?

Has built three different kinds of AWACS KJ2000, KJ200 and KJ500.

China is fielding the worlds first operational ASBM, referred to as the DF-21D, a theater range ballistic missile equipped with a maneuverable reentry vehicle(MaRV) designed to hit moving ships at sea.

Chinese Gunship WZ-10 uses WZ9 ingeniously developed WZ9 engine.

Exported weaponized drones to several countries.

Conducted 7th test of DF-41 ICBM with a range upto 15000kms and MIRV's.

Laser weapons like LAG II to destroy aerial targets.

Exceptional cyber espionage skills...For that you can refer to Pentagon for details 

I am certain that there are so many other military accomplishments that China has made over the last few years about which i am not even aware of, same goes for their engine programs, for that you will have to talk to the Chinese members, as they can provide better details. So far Chinese antagonists have been banking on this one point extravagantly to play down Chinese military industrial complex & its achievements, which you ask me, in all fairness is nothing but a folly and a "feel good attemp
@Beast @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Sinopakfriend @SinoSoldier Would you like to add more?

Reactions: Like Like:
34


----------



## !eon

Hassan Guy said:


> See Turkey is building this jet to work with it's F-35 fleet. Which is single engine, and Pakistan won't be getting any F-35's. We most probably will be getting J-31 which is dual engine. Plus Single engine have good benefits for PAF such as costs etc.


You can't engineer two screws in single directional project, yet designing two jets and that too with stealth geometry ?
Turkish TFX program is for twin engine design. It is not possible to take that design and just convert it into single engine.
If you want with single engine, you have to start a new project with different name from zero. 



Ind4Ever said:


> Jf 17 will nə developed into stealth in block 4



and same applies for conversion of non stealthy JF-17.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## cloud4000

It's going to be about the money. How much will it cost? How many air frames will it acquire? Will it be assembled in Pakistan? So many questions.


----------



## Reichsmarschall

cloud4000 said:


> It's going to be about the money. How much will it cost? How many air frames will it acquire? Will it be assembled in Pakistan? So many questions.


What if i say that they all are not your concern??

Reactions: Like Like:
23


----------



## SBD-3

It's an invitation and why wouldnt they like to invite Pakistan as it shares the development cost. But is TFX a viable solution at the moment, I am little suspicious. Another reason for this might be to barter the Super Mashak with share of development cost. I can recall more recently that T129 deal enatiled a fair amount of barter of defence products between the countries . If Super Mashak is a sunk sale, I'd rather accept it. If hard cash is involved, I'd rather say thanks and look eastwards for something more mature and out of drawing board product.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## cloud4000

Narendra Trump said:


> China became the worlds Third largest arms exporter.
> 
> J20 entered limited production, Other than US, how many other states are producing stealth fighter jets?
> 
> China conducted a seventh successful flight test of its hyper sonic glide vehicle, which travels at speeds between 4,000 and 7,000 miles per hour. How many other states have this other than US and Russia?
> 
> Has an operational ASAT system. Other than US and Russia how many other states?
> 
> Has built three different kinds of AWACS KJ2000, KJ200 and KJ500.
> 
> China is fielding the worlds first operational ASBM, referred to as the DF-21D, a theater range ballistic missile equipped with a maneuverable reentry vehicle(MaRV) designed to hit moving ships at sea.
> 
> Chinese Gunship WZ-10 uses WZ9 ingeniously developed WZ9 engine.
> 
> Exported weaponized drones to several countries.
> 
> Conducted 7th test of DF-41 ICBM with a range upto 15000kms and MIRV's.
> 
> Laser weapons like LAG II to destroy aerial targets.
> 
> Exceptional cyber espionage skills...For that you can refer to Pentagon for details
> 
> I am certain that there are so many other military accomplishments that China has made over the last few years about which i am not even aware of, same goes for their engine programs, for that you will have to talk to the Chinese members, as they can provide better details. So far Chinese antagonists have been banking on this one point extravagantly to play down Chinese military industrial complex & its achievements, which you ask me, in all fairness is nothing but a folly and a "feel good attemp
> @Beast @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Sinopakfriend @SinoSoldier Would you like to add more?



Close as China - Pakistan relations are, Pakistan is not keen on rely exclusively on Chinese equipment. Turkey seems like the only country that is willing to sell Pakistan without strings attached.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

!eon said:


> You can't engineer two screws in single directional project, yet designing two jets and that too with stealth geometry ?
> Turkish TFX program is for twin engine design. It is not possible to take that design and just convert it into single engine.
> If you want with single engine, you have to start a new project with different name from zero.
> 
> 
> 
> and same applies for conversion of non stealthy JF-17.


 
The F-35 has 3 Variants.


----------



## Reichsmarschall

cloud4000 said:


> Close as China - Pakistan relations are, Pakistan is not keen on rely exclusively on Chinese equipment. Turkey seems like the only country that is willing to sell Pakistan without strings attached.


this was response to other member who was making fun of chinese equipments


----------



## !eon

Hassan Guy said:


> The F-35 has 3 Variants.


any with twin engine ?


----------



## Reichsmarschall

Ind4Ever said:


> Wow Lord China spare me from ur self praising rants...
> 
> But after all these Pakistan ditched u and went with turkey


@waz @Horus @Oscar please handle this troll

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Hassan Guy

!eon said:


> any with twin engine ?


That doesn't matter, They built a VTOL and Carrier based Aircraft into ONE airframe.


----------



## Hassan Guy

Ind4Ever said:


> Dude it will take completely different approach for single and double engine from stress on structure, vortex, fuel capacity, new arrangements of parts and equipment... Means whole new fighter which Turkey or Pakistan can't afford. Even till date Russia has only one stealth fighter program. Still suffering. Dint bring China here.. They are super beings to have three or 4 programs
> 
> 
> Dude u where the one who posted off topic... In the name of Narendra Trump


All the designs have already been done.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

Ind4Ever said:


> What was the cost of the project?
> 
> 
> U need completely new design for single engine stealth


All American 5th gen fighters are over priced. 

The designs have already been done.


----------



## Ind4Ever

Hassan Guy said:


> All the designs have already been done.


Pakistan should go with this project so won't put all eggs in one basket. Develop jf17. Get it hands on few J31


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

This is an inevitable step. Pakistan opts to receive western standard equipment via Turkey, with little or no political strings attached. The Chinese equipment will only sell in the future when obscenely subsidized by loans.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Ind4Ever

Hassan Guy said:


> All American 5th gen fighters are over priced.
> 
> The designs have already been done.


You don't understand what am trying to say. Leave the Americans. How many countries developing 5th gen fighter? Very few? Why? 

Because of cost and resources involved is huge. This two engine fighter will take decade to get inducted of not decades. Turkey and Pakistan both facing financial crunch. If it's not for funds Pakistan could have gone for western fighters than Chinese jf17.



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is an inevitable step. Pakistan opts to receive western standard equipment via Turkey, with little or no political strings attached. The Chinese equipment will only sell in the future when obscenely subsidized by loans.


Very true exactly my point. And nothing wrong with that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## !eon

Hassan Guy said:


> That doesn't matter, They built a VTOL and Carrier based Aircraft into ONE airframe.


You mean there would be one declared project of TFX and in same project Pakistanis will be working on single engine and Turks will be trying to put two engines in same aircraft
We design seats for auto industry. I can't even imagine developing two different designs for two customers in one project.
There would be two projects. We are not advised to do that in single. In fact no one in industry can do that.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

Ind4Ever said:


> You don't understand what am trying to say. Leave the Americans. How many countries developing 5th gen fighter? Very few? Why?
> 
> Because of cost and resources involved is huge. This two engine fighter will take decade to get inducted of not decades. Turkey and Pakistan both facing financial crunch. If it's not for funds Pakistan could have gone for western fighters than Chinese jf17.
> 
> 
> Very true exactly my point. And nothing wrong with that.



BAE systems is helping. And costs is another reason why Turkey and Pakistan should work together. The JF-17 was developed due to embargo not costs necessarily.



!eon said:


> You mean there would be one declared project of TFX and in same project Pakistanis will be working on single engine and Turks will be trying to put two engines in same aircraft
> We design seats for auto industry. I can't even imagine developing two different designs for two customers in one project.
> There would be two projects. We are not advised to do that in single. In fact no one in industry can do that.


Bae Systems is helping it can be done.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## shah1398

Hassan Guy said:


> If Pakistan joins the program, they have to develop the single engine variant. Variant for PAF, while Turkey's can still be dual engine.



I dont think its necessarily compulsory to have single engine aircraft for PAF as we need a long endurance aircraft now. If Pakistan gets it hands on TFX then J-31 might not be needed at all.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is an inevitable step. Pakistan opts to receive western standard equipment via Turkey, with little or no political strings attached. The Chinese equipment will only sell in the future when obscenely subsidized by loans.


Thus far it's just an offer from Turkey, we don't know how the PAF will respond. That said, I am beginning to think that the next-generation fighter program is - at least initially - a replacement for the oldest F-16s. In that vein, it _has_ to be high-performance, high quality, high-tech - it will form the future qualitative edge. For the backbone, we have the JF-17, and for the future, we would just have new version JF-17s.

As for Turkey, they'll benefit from another user, who will add to the TFX's scale and help distribute the overhead research and development cost. If Pakistan could further help by providing some lower cost manufacturing work in some specific areas, that would be great.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Tipu7

For PAF after 2025, what will you choose?
Joint production of J31 or Advance blocks of Jf17 ?


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Thus far it's just an offer from Turkey, we don't know how the PAF will respond. That said, I am beginning to think that the next-generation fighter program is - at least initially - a replacement for the oldest F-16s. In that vein, it _has_ to be high-performance, high quality, high-tech - it will form the future qualitative edge. For the backbone, we have the JF-17, and for the future, we would just have new version JF-17s.
> 
> As for Turkey, they'll benefit from another user, who will add to the TFX's scale and help distribute the overhead research and development cost. If Pakistan could further help by providing some lower cost manufacturing work in some specific areas, that would be great.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> For PAF after 2025, what will you choose?
> Joint production of J31 or Advance blocks of Jf17 ?


I'd do to the JF-17 what Northrop seems to have done to the T-38 (which is based on the F-5). Basically, keep iterating on the platform, maximize your investment. In terms of new development, I would push for indigenous development and production of radars, ECM/EW and munitions (especially guidance). These are critical components which we won't have easy access to, at least not in optimal form (e.g. with the full data libraries).

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Thus far it's just an offer from Turkey, we don't know how the PAF will respond. That said, I am beginning to think that the next-generation fighter program is - at least initially - a replacement for the oldest F-16s. In that vein, it _has_ to be high-performance, high quality, high-tech - it will form the future qualitative edge. For the backbone, we have the JF-17, and for the future, we would just have new version JF-17s.
> 
> As for Turkey, they'll benefit from another user, who will add to the TFX's scale and help distribute the overhead research and development cost. If Pakistan could further help by providing some lower cost manufacturing work in some specific areas, that would be great.



PAF will be onboard, if not already.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> PAF will be onboard, if not already.


Can I recommend a name for the PAF project? _Shahbaz. _


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

Hassan Guy said:


> BAE systems is helping. And costs is another reason why Turkey and Pakistan should work together. The JF-17 was developed due to embargo not costs necessarily.
> 
> 
> Bae Systems is helping it can be done.



This is correct. BaES is the tech partner, and EJ is the engine partner. This bird can become reality faster than you know. For a platforms company, they can easily customize one of dozens of designs they have that didn't make it to production.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Can I recommend a name for the PAF project? _Shahbaz. _


Thats already a base. Why don't you call the CPD for the new PMO and make a suggestion?

I would personally call it FURY

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## muhammadali233

!eon said:


> any with twin engine ?


TFX has 3 models,one is dual engines air superority fighter,single engine cheaper to operate and a EFT2k type manoeuvrable aircraft.
Turkey is confused on choosing.So is offering other concepts to Pak,i guess.



Ind4Ever said:


> What was the cost of the project?
> 
> 
> U need completely new design for single engine stealth


refer


----------



## Hassan Guy

muhammadali233 said:


> TFX has 3 models,one is dual engines air superority fighter,single engine cheaper to operate and a EFT2k type manoeuvrable aircraft.
> Turkey is confused on choosing.So is offering other concepts to Pak,i guess.
> 
> 
> refer


Single Engine is best for PAF. Costs, maintenance, an reliability. This is necessary as across the border 300+ dual engine 5th gen fighters will be in service.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## muhammadali233

Hassan Guy said:


> Single Engine is best for PAF. Costs, maintenance, an reliability. This is necessary as across the border 300+ dual engine 5th gen fighters will be in service.


300+dual engine 5th gen of whom?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is correct. BaES is the tech partner, and EJ is the engine partner. This bird can become reality faster than you know. For a platforms company, they can easily customize one of dozens of designs they have that didn't make it to production.
> 
> 
> Thats already a base. Why don't you call the CPD for the new PMO and make a suggestion?
> 
> I would personally call it FURY


Rename PAF Shahbaz to Misbah

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

muhammadali233 said:


> 300+dual engine 5th gen of whom?



Apparently there is some country who plans on getting some Su-50's and some AMCA's. Legend has it, that this country doesn't like Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

Ind4Ever said:


> Jf17 not developed for Pakistan. But delovelped for export by China in mid 80s and 90s. Pakistan was offered with Sweet deals aiming at India. It was win win for Pakistan and China as China irk India and make cash out of it with interest. While Pakistan gets new fighters to replace it's old fleets with yearly payment for some decade. To be frank I feel Block 3 configuration should be basic for Block 1. For which Chinese are capable of putting in best features but they dint. In the name of block 2 they fixed refueling probe likes in other minor upgrades.
> 
> It's good Pakistan should go with turkey. If am not wrong Chinese Type 99 failed to impress PA and now atlay Turkish tank is on the card. But Chinese are lobbying hard.



I don't think Pakistan will buy Tanks off the shelf, but will buy some sub-systems for Al-Khalid Tanks.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## .

Good days for Pakistan ahead and political opening of Karachi to better peoples representatives is underway.Karachi can act like how I guess Mumbai (Not sure) acts for India and revenue generation.
of course this will take sometime and Immense dedicated recovery of Economy should be underway with planned projects for the next decades something like the current governments vision 2025 I would request everyone to read that through www.pc.gov.pk it presents some very very Interesting things about our economy.Pakistan should not procure these Turkish 5th Gen's because of different complexities however it would be great to involve our people to learn what it takes to build Such complex machines .
With Peace and a great economy and a bit of poking the americans I don't doubt we'll even get the F-22.
Lucky to be apart of a bright Pakistan.
We'll show the world one day,If not today ...tomorrow or decades from now.
Our belief in our country is unshakable.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## muhammadali233

Ind4Ever said:


> Jf17 not developed for Pakistan. But delovelped for export by China in mid 80s and 90s. Pakistan was offered with Sweet deals aiming at India. It was win win for Pakistan and China as China irk India and make cash out of it with interest. While Pakistan gets new fighters to replace it's old fleets with yearly payment for some decade. To be frank I feel Block 3 configuration should be basic for Block 1. For which Chinese are capable of putting in best features but they dint. In the name of block 2 they fixed refueling probe likes in other minor upgrades.
> 
> It's good Pakistan should go with turkey. If am not wrong Chinese Type 99 failed to impress PA and now atlay Turkish tank is on the card. But Chinese are lobbying hard.


JFT is 80s?Your confusing tejas with jft

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Turkish Air Force concept for fifth generation multi-role fighter-bomber aircraft
> - A +
> Turkey has invited Pakistan to participate in the development of its next-generation fighter program, TFX.
> 
> Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain in an interview with PTV last Sunday, said that Turkey had requested Islamabad to be part of the development program for its next-generation fighter aircraft.
> 
> Turkey is evaluating proposals for purchasing training aircraft for the Turkish Air Force, and Pakistan’s Super Mushshak trainer aircraft is a leading contender. A final decision is likely soon.
> 
> As for future collaboration, both countries are in discussions over possible cooperation on Turkey's first indigenous FX Fighter Jet program, Anadolu agency had quoted unnamed sources as saying in June this year.
> 
> Pakistan and Turkey are also collaborating on building a new warship fleet tanker. Pakistan’s Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) has launched a 17,000-tonne heavy Warship fleet tanker, which was being constructed by the company in collaborating with the Turkish firm Savunma Teknologiler Muhendisilik (STM) Sunday.
> 
> http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...ext_Gen_Fighter_Aircraft_Program#.V7x6cSNRXqB


Zarvan do you think it could be made like the eurofighter IE each country manufacture different parts eg airframe etc and then all assembled in one place ? And also if using us systems could this not also be sanctioned ?


----------



## Blue Marlin

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is correct. BaES is the tech partner, and EJ is the engine partner. This bird can become reality faster than you know. For a platforms company, they can easily customize one of dozens of designs they have that didn't make it to production.
> 
> 
> Thats already a base. Why don't you call the CPD for the new PMO and make a suggestion?
> 
> I would personally call it FURY


how many do you reckon they would buy? and if they have enough would you imagine they would have a complete over haul facility and manufacturing of perishable parts. does turkey have a licence to export engine to thrid party clients?


----------



## Mughal-Prince

BondedByBlood said:


> With Peace and a great economy and a bit of poking the americans *I don't doubt we'll even get the F-22*.



Did you have any clue they didn't offer it to any of their allies not even to Japan and Australia and you think they will offer it to us .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## .

Mughal-Prince said:


> Did you have any clue they didn't offer it to any of their allies not even to Japan and Australia and you think they will offer it to us .


2025 and 2020 is the expected date of all operational 5th Gen's the ones in development stages,Till by 2030 with a huge rival market to the United states F-22 and technological progression of avionics nothing in the F-22 will be a secret anymore,So F-22 will be open to Pakistan.
With a peaceful,safe,strong and vibrant economy like of the 1960s and 1980s why you don't think they'll give us F-22's?
Times change.
The India of 1960s going through Famines today is the worlds largest democracy and a GDP of 83USD compared to Pakistans 81USD and Pakistans GDP Percentage growth was 6.8 percent all through out the 1960s this was a time when South korea had a GDP growth rate of 5 percent all through 1960s and a few two good decades ahead.
Remember the remarks of Nixon against Indhira Gandhi when he called her a B**** Lol and yeah we all know that.
So yeah I do believe they'll give us F-22's.The overall political outlook of the world has changed Yes.
But the Americans are Good people they will be willing to give it to us if we work seriously with them.
PS#No Goddamn Indo Quote me and start a war,This is the truth.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Mughal-Prince

BondedByBlood said:


> 2025 and 2020 is the expected date of all operational 5th Gen's the ones in development stages,Till by 2030 with a huge rival market to the United states F-22 and technological progression of avionics nothing in the F-22 will be a secret anymore,So F-22 will be open to Pakistan.
> With a peaceful,safe,strong and vibrant economy like of the 1960s and 1980s why you don't think they'll give us F-22's?
> Times change.
> The India of 1960s going through Famines today is the worlds largest democracy and a GDP of 83USD compared to Pakistans 81USD and Pakistans GDP Percentage growth was 6.8 percent all through out the 1960s this was a time when South korea had a GDP growth rate of 5 percent all through 1960s and a few two good decades ahead.
> Remember the remarks of Nixon against Indhira Gandhi when he called her a B**** Lol and yeah we all know that.
> So yeah I do believe they'll give us F-22's.The overall political outlook of the world has changed Yes.
> But the Americans are Good people they will be willing to give it to us if we work seriously with them.
> PS#No Goddamn Indo Quote me and start a war,This is the truth.



Bhai sahib I am addressing your post so I am quoting you.

Now please I gave you a clear example how many of F-117, B2 Spirit, B1B sold out of USA ?? They will not sold them and the time you are quoting here it will be obsolete as well as reopening its assembly line would be costly. Instead other machines would be offered with new tech. even its price refrain USA to not build more than 180 examples from which none of the iteration been replaced as its assembly line had been shut down years ago. They won't even offer there used ones to any of the country as they will juice them out and when they were in twilight of lifespan it would be loaded with such technologies which they never share with any of the country. Left alone the F-22 they had not shared certain technologies of F-35 to the nations which are participating in research and development. They denied SK for 5 techs from F-35 for their NG Fighter program.

Summing up in 1 line F-22 is not for export! Period


----------



## salarsikander

Ind4Ever said:


> Good finally Pakistan dumped Chinese mal
> 
> 
> Jf 17 will nə developed into stealth in block 4


No Offence but why do you have to prove yourself as stupid ?



cloud4000 said:


> Close as China - Pakistan relations are, Pakistan is not keen on rely exclusively on Chinese equipment. Turkey seems like the only country that is willing to sell Pakistan without strings attached.


A wise man once said never put all your eggs in one basket. Plus Pakistan always had the opportunity of using American, French and chinese equipement. Brings about good diversity too

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## hussain0216

Ind4Ever said:


> Jf17 not developed for Pakistan. But delovelped for export by China in mid 80s and 90s. Pakistan was offered with Sweet deals aiming at India. It was win win for Pakistan and China as China irk India and make cash out of it with interest. While Pakistan gets new fighters to replace it's old fleets with yearly payment for some decade. To be frank I feel Block 3 configuration should be basic for Block 1. For which Chinese are capable of putting in best features but they dint. In the name of block 2 they fixed refueling probe likes in other minor upgrades.
> 
> It's good Pakistan should go with turkey. If am not wrong Chinese Type 99 failed to impress PA and now atlay Turkish tank is on the card. But Chinese are lobbying hard.



Keep your delusions to yourself

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Basel

It will be wise to join some western supported 5th gen fighter jet program from a reliable source, it will make Pakistan more independent and have access to tech used or developed from F-35 or any other project.

Currently Pakistan is not supporting China in terms of tech knowledge as they have done since long due to access to advance western tech. TFX could allow improvement in future J-31 versions if Pakistan procure them.

TFX may use engine used in EFT so if Pakistan join the project it may also procure some EFTs to maximize benefit of it.

@waz @Bilal Khan 777 @Windjammer

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## WaLeEdK2

BondedByBlood said:


> 2025 and 2020 is the expected date of all operational 5th Gen's the ones in development stages,Till by 2030 with a huge rival market to the United states F-22 and technological progression of avionics nothing in the F-22 will be a secret anymore,So F-22 will be open to Pakistan.
> With a peaceful,safe,strong and vibrant economy like of the 1960s and 1980s why you don't think they'll give us F-22's?
> Times change.
> The India of 1960s going through Famines today is the worlds largest democracy and a GDP of 83USD compared to Pakistans 81USD and Pakistans GDP Percentage growth was 6.8 percent all through out the 1960s this was a time when South korea had a GDP growth rate of 5 percent all through 1960s and a few two good decades ahead.
> Remember the remarks of Nixon against Indhira Gandhi when he called her a B**** Lol and yeah we all know that.
> So yeah I do believe they'll give us F-22's.The overall political outlook of the world has changed Yes.
> But the Americans are Good people they will be willing to give it to us if we work seriously with them.
> PS#No Goddamn Indo Quote me and start a war,This is the truth.



F-22 is not for export nor is it ever going to be.


----------



## Mangus Ortus Novem

Narendra Trump said:


> China became the worlds Third largest arms exporter.
> 
> J20 entered limited production, Other than US, how many other states are producing stealth fighter jets?
> 
> China conducted a seventh successful flight test of its hyper sonic glide vehicle, which travels at speeds between 4,000 and 7,000 miles per hour. How many other states have this other than US and Russia?
> 
> Has an operational ASAT system. Other than US and Russia how many other states?
> 
> Has built three different kinds of AWACS KJ2000, KJ200 and KJ500.
> 
> China is fielding the worlds first operational ASBM, referred to as the DF-21D, a theater range ballistic missile equipped with a maneuverable reentry vehicle(MaRV) designed to hit moving ships at sea.
> 
> Chinese Gunship WZ-10 uses WZ9 ingeniously developed WZ9 engine.
> 
> Exported weaponized drones to several countries.
> 
> Conducted 7th test of DF-41 ICBM with a range upto 15000kms and MIRV's.
> 
> Laser weapons like LAG II to destroy aerial targets.
> 
> Exceptional cyber espionage skills...For that you can refer to Pentagon for details
> 
> I am certain that there are so many other military accomplishments that China has made over the last few years about which i am not even aware of, same goes for their engine programs, for that you will have to talk to the Chinese members, as they can provide better details. So far Chinese antagonists have been banking on this one point extravagantly to play down Chinese military industrial complex & its achievements, which you ask me, in all fairness is nothing but a folly and a "feel good attemp
> @Beast @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Sinopakfriend @SinoSoldier Would you like to add more?



My dear friend,

Why waste your energies on those who have chosen blindness...these ******** are so self possessed with their delusions and invented mythologies that nothing can cure this sickness.

China is truly transformed in defence production...and its almost there in many areas against the US...and some other areas it is already ahead of the game.

It is not just the defence sector...you have to see the overall scientefic and industrial development and output as well. Now the great Russia is importing state of the art electronics components for its strategic sector from China.

******** are just burning inside with jealosuy...they can never achieve the achievements of China...hence they belittle everything Chinese and have only half a billion people living as subhumans to show.

You keep your spirits up. Bless you and your great country. Just crush the hindu sponsored terrorists..focus and economic progress. CPEC is just the beginning...many many great things to come to your good people.

Ignore the sick filled with dark hatred of Sino-Pak Friendship.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

This is like a blind man’s figuring out the elephant:

Here, Turkey has requested for Pak’s participation, so Pak is an honorable guest. Turkish folks are known for their hospitality. 

My association with Pak folks, although very limited, shows that they have an air of independence in them. That means they won’t feel shy to ask tough questions and figure out the weaknesses. These are the philosophical musts for a successful engineering project. 

Paks love aviation – look at JF17 project. Thanks to the OBL ops they must have a first-hand experience with different aspects of the stealth technology – materials science, mechanics etc. 

As for the funding, leave it to _Reis Erdo’an_. When he sets his eyes on something usually he gets it done. The same is true for Paks; otherwise, they couldn’t have been a nuclear power. 

As for _Ehl-i Iman_, the higher the levels of participation the more the probability of success due to _Bereket_, _Rahmet_, _Ijazet _etc. factors.
When the _Turkic _folks in the harsh steppes of the Central Asia put all their belongings (mostly weapons) on their horses and set into the journey to the unknown - Byzantines and _Hindistan_- it was a very hard task too. Consider TFX as the modern day version of that scenario...

Reactions: Like Like:
27


----------



## dani958

*PAKISTAN TO PARTICIPATE IN TURKEY’S TFX NEXT-GEN FIGHTER AIRCRAFT PROGRAM*
*WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 24, 2016 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS*





*Turkey has invited Pakistan to participate in the development of its next-generation fighter program, TFX.*
Pakistan’s Minister of Defense Production Rana Tanveer Hussain in an interview with PTV last Sunday, said that Turkey had requested Islamabad to be part of the development program for its next-generation fighter aircraft.
Turkey is evaluating proposals for purchasing training aircraft for the Turkish Air Force, and Pakistan’s Super Mushshak trainer aircraft is a leading contender. A final decision is likely soon.
As for future collaboration, both countries are in discussions over possible cooperation on Turkey's first indigenous FX Fighter Jet program, Anadolu agency had quoted unnamed sources as saying in June this year.
Pakistan and Turkey are also collaborating on building a new warship fleet tanker. Pakistan’s Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) has launched a 17,000-tonne heavy Warship fleet tanker, which was being constructed by the company in collaborating with the Turkish firm Savunma Teknologiler Muhendisilik (STM) Sunday.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/M...se-of-fighter-jets,-submarines,-warships-7670

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cabatli_53

Ind4Ever said:


> You don't understand what am trying to say. Leave the Americans. How many countries developing 5th gen fighter? Very few? Why?
> 
> Because of cost and resources involved is huge. This two engine fighter will take decade to get inducted of not decades. Turkey and Pakistan both facing financial crunch. If it's not for funds Pakistan could have gone for western fighters than Chinese jf17.
> 
> 
> Very true exactly my point. And nothing wrong with that.




Turkey looks TF-X project as a huge step towards own independence so keeping it in a special place.

The number of TF-X to be produced for Turkish Air Force: 240
The first flight: before 2023
Turkey's budget: 12 billion $

The Pakistan like brother states that is going to join the project will also support it in terms of engineering, cost and total aircraft number to be produced.

Reactions: Like Like:
27


----------



## CriticalThinker02

A fifth generation air superiority fighter jet like the Turkish TFX with BVR's would certainly even the playing field when it comes to the quantitative and qualitative edge the Indian air force has managed to develop over the past decade, all those 100's of SU- 30MKI's would be for naught and any fifth generation stealth jet India manages to acquire would mean the potential win or loss would certainly fall back to the skill of the pilot which favors the PAF, superior numbers of 4th and 4.5 generation jets would not influence the outcome in any significant way.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Narendra Trump said:


> What if i say that they all are not your concern??


Why not?
He is a member with a right to know if he is asking with genuine curiosity



Ind4Ever said:


> Jf17 not developed for Pakistan. But *delovelped for export by China in mid 80s and 90s*. .



As an example to forum members. 

Posters like these try to pass off total Cow dung as actual knowledge by trying to sound confident. Your best bet is to report them for parroting trash as this one is right now and let us handle the rest.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## anatolia

hey pakistani brothers;
it may not be best fighter on earth but it would be ours (both TURKISH AND PAKISTAN) !!.

Reactions: Like Like:
35


----------



## Tps43

Good news but investment should be made when turks them selves start to follow the project with much more seriousness.


----------



## Pandora

Ind4Ever said:


> Good finally Pakistan dumped Chinese mal
> 
> 
> Jf 17 will nə developed into stealth in block 4



JF Thunder will never be converted to stealth but most likely semi stealth on lines of F15 Silent eagle. A stealth aircraft needs to designed from scratch due to complex aerodynamic features.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

PAF should welcome it with open arms and participate in TFX

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## damm1t

Ind4Ever said:


> Turkey and Pakistan both facing financial crunch



Turkey's economy is growing for 26 quarters in a row. We have no financial problems since political support for the project is at the highest level.



muhammadali233 said:


> TFX has 3 models,one is dual engines air superority fighter,single engine cheaper to operate and a EFT2k type manoeuvrable aircraft.
> Turkey is confused on choosing



No confuss. Twin engine model is chosen long ago.


Blue Marlin said:


> Does turkey have a licence to export engine to thrid party clients?



That's not an issue which can't be handle. There is no ONLY ONE engine manufacturer in the world. And RR is pro-TFX, it won't be a problem

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Genghis khan1

*Pakistan can help with TFX stealth design and some material sciences* if defence ministry is willing to spend $100 million or so on Supercomputer research lab. Chinese are excelling in this field, Plus Pakistan can also buy American Intel chips or Canadian D-wave Quantum computer. Pakistan has larger pool of scientists and engineers doing 3rd class jobs, Teaching, Freelance or working in Mid-east. Hire them all, give them proper tools and make them work like a rat and they will surprize the world.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...supercomputer-now-has-chinese-chip-technology

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is correct. BaES is the tech partner, and EJ is the engine partner. This bird can become reality faster than you know. For a platforms company, they can easily customize one of dozens of designs they have that didn't make it to production.
> 
> 
> Thats already a base. Why don't you call the CPD for the new PMO and make a suggestion?
> 
> I would personally call it FURY



What's about _Janbaz_!?! PAF pilots have shown how to put their lives in the line of fire...

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## dadeechi

So Pakistan is going to have two 5th generation fighter programs..in TFX & J-31

This is going to be a huge boost to PAF.

Hope GoI & IAF shows urgency on PAK-FA/FGFA & F-35 deals.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## war&peace

That is a good development and both should cooperate in this great project as both countries can jointly develop a formidable fighter which caters for their particular needs in future.
However, it needs to be seen how Turkey and Pakistan iron out issues related to foreign-systems especially from US before an official commitment will be made and contract be signed. Which I think if both countries assert themselves, they can solve the issue and then it will be the best JV for both and will go a long way developing stronger relation between the two brotherly countries.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## The SC

I think Turkey has seen a potential in the Pakistani expertise acquired in manufacturing a fighter jet, the experience is very valuable for a _from scratch_ project, even though Turkey has great experience in maintaining and upgrading combat jets.. So I do not see any reason why Pakistan shouldn't join the project with a symbolic amount like a 100 million $ or so, India for instance put in around that amount to join in the PakFA project with a promise to buy a certain number if all goes well..The same applies in the TFX project..so it will depend on the final cost per fighter plane and some solid projections of the Pakistani economy.. if they match and/or there is potential to acquire around a 100 or so than it should be a very good deal for 2025 to 2030, in the mean time there is the J-31 with at least 3 squadrons to fill temporarily the 4++ and 5th generation gap



war&peace said:


> That is a good development and we should cooperate in this great project as both countries we jointly develop a formidable fighter which caters for their particular needs in future.
> However, it needs to be seen how Turkey can Pakistan iron out issues related to foreign-systems especially from US before an official commitment will be made and contract be signed. Which I think if both countries assert themselves, they can solve the issue and then it will be the best JV for both and will go a long way developing stronger relation between the two brotherly countries.


The US has no problem selling components or even fighter jets to Pakistan as long as the latter pays the full price, that was the last message from the US Congress..

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## war&peace

The SC said:


> I think Turkey has seen a potential in the Pakistani expertise acquired in manufacturing a fighter jet, the experience is very valuable for a _from scratch_ project, even though Turkey has great experience in maintaining and upgrading combat jets.. So I do not see any reason why Pakistan shouldn't join the project with a symbolic amount like a 100 million $ or so, India for instance put in around that amount to join in the PakFA project with a promise to buy a certain number if all goes well..The same applies in the TFX project..so it will depend on the final cost per fighter plane and some solid projections of the Pakistani economy.. if they match,and/or there is potential to acquire around a 100 or so than it should be a very good deal for 2025 to 2030, in the mean time there is the J-31 with at least 3 squadrons to fill temporarily the4++ and 5th generation gap
> 
> 
> The US has no problem selling components or even fighter jets to Pakistan as long as the latter pays the full price, that was the last message from the US Congress..


Agreed. But you know US policies are prone to change and Pakistan cannot base long term policies and partnerships on current US policy so there needs to be more solid assurance from Turkey or USA in this matter. 
However the recent update makes it almost wrinkle free since BAE will be assisting in technology of various systems while Rolls Royce is providing the engine and that's a good omen both for Pakistan and Turkey.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zarvan

Hassan Guy said:


> If Pakistan joins the program, they have to develop the single engine variant. Variant for PAF, while Turkey's can still be dual engine.


No more single engine variant policy. It's time to come up with new doctrine

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## war&peace

Zarvan said:


> No more single engine variant policy. It's time to come up with new doctrine


PAF needs to go for a twin engine aircrafts..many smaller airforces have been using twin engines for years and even SLAF may go for Mig 29K. While PAF is much bigger force and has to cover larger enemy and defend more than 800 k sq-km Pakistan land and maritime area.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hell hound

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is correct. BaES is the tech partner, and EJ is the engine partner. This bird can become reality faster than you know. For a platforms company, they can easily customize one of dozens of designs they have that didn't make it to production.
> 
> 
> Thats already a base. Why don't you call the CPD for the new PMO and make a suggestion?
> 
> I would personally call it FURY


i have read i one article uk is also considering this project to be its new typhoon.now if that happens imagnie the avionics,engine,EW and radar on this baby.all out of americans sanctions reach but still of westren quality..

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Hassan Guy

Zarvan said:


> No more single engine variant policy. It's time to come up with new doctrine


Single engine has more advantages, J-31 will be dual.


----------



## randomradio

The SC said:


> I think Turkey has seen a potential in the Pakistani expertise acquired in manufacturing a fighter jet, the experience is very valuable for a _from scratch_ project, even though Turkey has great experience in maintaining and upgrading combat jets.. So I do not see any reason why Pakistan shouldn't join the project with a symbolic amount like a 100 million $ or so, India for instance put in around that amount to join in the PakFA project with a promise to buy a certain number if all goes well..The same applies in the TFX project..so it will depend on the final cost per fighter plane and some solid projections of the Pakistani economy.. if they match,and/or there is potential to acquire around a 100 or so than it should be a very good deal for 2025 to 2030, in the mean time there is the J-31 with at least 3 squadrons to fill temporarily the4++ and 5th generation gap



Pakistan will either buy the TFX or the J-31, it will be one or the other. Right now Turkey has only invited Pak into the project. At the same time, the Chinese could start pressuring the Pak govt to invest in the J-31 instead.

Pak should get a pretty decent negotiations advantage. But the Chinese option is low risk.


----------



## Arsalan

Hassan Guy said:


> If Pakistan joins the program, they have to develop the single engine variant. Variant for PAF, while Turkey's can still be dual engine.


not necessarily!
people need to undersat d that concept of PAF buying single engines only. it is not that we cannot operate twin engines. 
Also i would take what the minister have to say with a pinch of salt. he is a politician and survives by lieing! However there are other indications as well that paf may look for a JV with Turkey for fifth gen plane other than the Chinese option. If so, it will be great indeed

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

Arsalan said:


> not necessarily!
> people need to undersat d that concept of PAF buying single engines only. it is not that we cannot operate twin engines.
> Also i would take what the minister have to say with a pinch of salt. he is a politician and survives by lieing! However there are other indications as well that paf may look for a JV with Turkey for fifth gen plane other than the Chinese option. If so, it will be great indeed


Single engine is better for PAF.


----------



## Arsalan

Hassan Guy said:


> Single engine is better for PAF.



For current needs and requirements in given resources and situation.


----------



## Signalian

anyone has info on number hard points? internal or external.

will it carry western weapons only?

IRST and other targeting or ecm pods will be local? will ASELSAN make all this?

Engine is an issue, not single or twin engined but 3rd party engine, EFT engine?, just like JF-17 scene. 

PAF may need a version which can communicate with its Chinese and SAAB AWACS and maybe carry Chinese weapons too.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

Arsalan said:


> For current needs and requirements in given resources and situation.


Even for future it is quite practical. Even Lockheed made F-35 with one engine.


----------



## Arsalan

Hassan Guy said:


> Even for future it is quite practical. Even Lockheed made F-35 with one engine.


Oh it sure is practical! The single engine plane i mean. What i am saying is that is it NOT necessarily that we will decide not to procure a system just because it is twin engine in the future.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ahmed95

It is worth mentioning that the turkish official present at the launch of PN Fleet Tanker mentioned that soon turkey and Pakistan will build fighter planes and that turkish planes will fly ovet Pakistani skies and Pakistan planes will fly over turkish skies. He clearly pointed towards turkeys indigenous fifth gen program.


----------



## Signalian

Ahmed95 said:


> It is worth mentioning that the turkish official present at the launch of PN Fleet Tanker mentioned that soon turkey and Pakistan will build fighter planes and that turkish planes will fly ovet Pakistani skies and Pakistan planes will fly over turkish skies. He clearly pointed towards turkeys indigenous fifth gen program.



I doubt TuAF will be interested in JF-17


----------



## v9s

Oscar said:


> Posters like these try to pass off total Cow dung as actual knowledge by trying to sound confident. Your best bet is to report them for parroting trash as this one is right now and let us handle the rest.


You mean a majority of the Indians on PDF?

A suggestion: Have some kind of MOD stamp of approval/disapproval badge affixed to the member mini profile that appears with every post within the technical forums.


----------



## The Eagle

Great news if come to fruition though one thing for sure, the Aviation City at Kamra is not for selfies indeed. In very controlled manners, it has been expressed that there is something going to be Next Generation Fighter so seems like a JV most probably and going for TFX would be beneficial as well while keeping in view the pocket which is the concern for the moment.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## SBD-3

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This is an inevitable step. Pakistan opts to receive western standard equipment via Turkey, with little or no political strings attached. The Chinese equipment will only sell in the future when obscenely subsidized by loans.


Its rather because we can't buy western equipment, so it feels good to have a western tag on whatever we buy.


----------



## Hell hound

SBD-3 said:


> Its rather because we can't buy western equipment, so it feels good to have a western tag on whatever we buy.


are you serious uk is involved in this project with its engines and have intent to make it their next typhoon what else do you need to tag a project western


----------



## SBD-3

The Eagle said:


> Great news if come to fruition though one thing for sure, the Aviation City at Kamra is not for selfies indeed. In very controlled manners, it has been expressed that there is something going to be Next Generation Fighter so seems like a JV most probably and going for TFX would be beneficial as well while keeping in view the pocket which is the concern for the moment.


Aircraft manufacturing and designing is a luxury. Had PAF had enough money, we would have already seen another platform making her way to Kamra. These are just things good for news for now. For a successful TFX, turkey would need at first sufficient experience of assembling and manufacturing JSF to see what would they need in their TFX and what not.



Hell hound said:


> are you serious uk is involved in this project with its engines and have intent to make it their next typhoon what else do you need to tag a project western


Engine is a sub component of any fighter project and proceeds separately from the development course of the aircraft. JSF,JFT,J-10,J-20,PAK-FA,J-31,J-11X you name it, they all had intended engines different from the ones used for operational purpose and were not linked with the development of specific engine for the program. With the presence of EuroJet,GE and P&W, if you really believe that they'd look at the engine alone as a main contender, i'd say good luck. As a possible alternative, why not but as a main workhorse, I am very doubtful.
PS (Amendment):
Its actually the opposite, as i was saying. UK has offered EJ-200 for TFX, not designing or procuring of TFX's prospective engine for Typhoons. 
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...engine-for-turkish-made-fighter-jet/76890154/


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> Single engine is better for PAF.



What engine are you proposing for a single engine version? The only engine available today with enough thrust is on the F-35.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## LeGenD

Arsalan said:


> Oh it sure is practical! The single engine plane i mean. What i am saying is that is it NOT necessarily that we will decide not to procure a system just because it is twin engine in the future.


Considering cost factor, maintenance requirements and economic situation of the country, single engine fighter plane is practical for Pakistan and will remain so for years to come.

We invest in army, air-force and navy from time to time; therefore, we need to adopt a balanced-investment approach for our defense-related needs. 

Ambitious airforce-related projects can be extremely expensive in the long-term.


----------



## SOHEIL

Good luck ...

But TFX project needs money !


----------



## Vapnope

SOHEIL said:


> But TFX project needs money !


Like we don't know already !

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SOHEIL

Vapnope said:


> Like we don't know already !



Because pakistani members mentioning economic problems a lot...


----------



## Vapnope

SOHEIL said:


> Because pakistani members mentioning economic problems a lot...


Same, as i said above


----------



## SOHEIL

Vapnope said:


> Same, as i said above



So what's gonna be your input?


----------



## Mangus Ortus Novem

Firstly, all the best wishes to Pak friends! 

With East & West combination... your aviation sector is bound to enter a transformative state. 

Both J31 & TFX can play valuable roles in the PAF and bring the power balance back in the skies.

Whatever is the strategic choice of the PAF, one sincerely hopes to see local production of NGF with partners like China & Turkey.

Keep going, keep expanding your options and opportunities. 

Hopefully, your Aviation City Becomes a world class figther production city.

Goodluck.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Vapnope

SOHEIL said:


> So what's gonna be your input?


You will find out soon enough


----------



## Muhammad Omar

TAI TFX has 3 different Designs i Think Pakistan should go for Single Engine cause we have an Option of dual Engine J-31 of China

But the Question is how much Pakistan will give $$$ in this project?? $500 M?

Also this will complete East and WEST Combo which Chief Sohail said in his interview


----------



## SOHEIL

Muhammad Omar said:


> TAI TFX has 3 different Designs i Think Pakistan should go for Single Engine cause we have an Option of dual Engine J-31 of China
> 
> But the Question is how much Pakistan will give $$$ in this project?? $500 M?
> 
> Also this will complete East and WEST Combo which Chief Sohail said in his interview



So you are going to force Turkey into single engine design because you have another option?

& 500m $ !?

Developing a new fighter jet needs billions not millions !

Especially when western countries involved !!!

+ this is turkey's first experience in developing fighter jets ... So it's gonna make it more expensive project !

+ Turkey currently unable to produce jet engines... & you are going to ask from the countries Which are fully against developing such a systems in Muslim countries !

+ As we see in TAI anka project Which is much simpler than a fighter jet "again" experience is a very important factor & it's gonna take so long to achieve !!!

2030?


----------



## Muhammad Omar

SOHEIL said:


> So you are going to force Turkey into single engine design because you have another option?
> 
> & 500m $ !?
> 
> Developing a new fighter jet needs billions not millions !
> 
> Especially when western countries involved !!!
> 
> + this is turkey's first experience in developing fighter jets ... So it's gonna make it more expensive project !
> 
> + Turkey currently unable to produce jet engines... & you are going to ask from the countries Which are fully against developing such a systems in Muslim countries !
> 
> + As we see in TAI anka project Which is much simpler than a fighter jet "again" experience is a very important factor & it's gonna take so long to achieve !!!
> 
> 2030?



Where did i say that PAF should Force Turkey for Single engine design.. Look at the Picture they already have plans of twin Engine and Single Engine Plane.. no one is forcing them..

and about the Money it'll be obviously the initial payment it'll still take a decade for this to become reality or even 8 years minimum

Turkey is Already making components for F-35 and F-16's so they have experience also they collaborated with Sweden Saab to provide design support services to Turkey for the TAI TFX program

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Army research

Look people like countless have said I don't think turkey would have invited Pakistan if it did not have the money ,there could be financial programs the Turk's could have made for us in view of our struggling but growing economy if you come to think of it it sounds quite right

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SOHEIL

Muhammad Omar said:


> Look at the Picture they already have plans of twin Engine and Single Engine Plane.. no one is forcing them..



It doesn't mean they are going to have both !


----------



## mike2000 is back

Hell hound said:


> i have read i one article uk is also considering this project to be its new typhoon.now if that happens imagnie the avionics,engine,EW and radar on this baby.all out of americans sanctions reach but still of westren quality..



Well, if a country is worried about U.S /U.K/Western sanctions, then I'm afraid that country will have to be a closed country like N.Korea.
So Turkey shouldn't be worried about our Sanctions in future. Since they need our help to have any chance of making their dream of building such an advanced fighter jet come true.

Anyway, as long as we continue to provide all the necessary help and assistance to Turkey in this field, then they shouldn't have much problem building this fighter jet .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Hassan Guy said:


> See Turkey is building this jet to work with it's F-35 fleet. Which is single engine, and Pakistan won't be getting any F-35's. We most probably will be getting J-31 which is dual engine. Plus Single engine have good benefits for PAF such as costs etc.



This is a separate program, allowing Turkey to be independent of the US aircraft as their relations are drifting away. The idea behind this is for Turkey to create their own 5th gen plane to make up the "Hi" of the Hi-Lo mix. F-35 will supplement that "Hi" along with the TFX. F-16's, etc, will serve the "Lo" of that mix.

Pakistan can make this their hi as well and keep the JFT and the F-16 for Lo.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## CHACHA"G"

*Hello All
For me its a best option , Technically and economically good and soled . Y , for me its very simple or I say what I think or my wish lol.
We already have JF17 we can have more advance models of that bird and can make them in numbers to add with them we can and we should have J31 as stealth bird a great combo JF17 + J31 .
J31 can come in production around 2022 or 2023 and we can have first squadron ready in 2025 max, ideal time for start of replacing F16s (older one first) , we can have 200+ JF17 to counter majority of IAF's Birds and 120+ J31 to counter SU30 , Pak-Fa , Rafal and F35(if any).
Now that's sound to little and not enough , PAF and all know it too, So what to do , Here we have the golden Opportunity , TFX yes TFX , we can join hand with of Brothers and can build a 5th Gen Western Tech Bird and that bird can join us around 2028 , and to help them we can go for EFT as 4.5++ gen bird .
I may sound silly but I think KSA will soon have Production line of EFT and we already have good relations with ITLAY and UK . Here we have a great combo again EFT + TFX , with western Tech .
if we do that we will have most of the birds Made in Pakistan (will cost us less and many more advantages ) and a great combo of eastern and western 4.5+ and 5th gen birds , and because they need some time until that we can build our economy and we can have them in good numbers just say 500+ all 4 .
These Birds can not only defend Our Air but they can also easily attack enemy (deep Strike).
its my dream and for me the only option to counter IAF big numbers and Technical Advantage, maintenance wont be issue as JF17 an J31 , and EFT and TFX will have lots of commonalities .
I hope u guys wont mind shearing my dream or wish with you all
Thank you*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Ind4Ever said:


> Jf 17 will nə developed into stealth in block 4



The JFT is an already inducted platform where the PAF has allocated significant time for training and tactics development. It's going to stay as the main horse in the race. The TFS will form the stealthy Hi for the PAF (like the F-15 did for the USAF and now the F-22 does for the USAF). This would be the same doctrine of Hi-Lo mix. 

The JFT block IV will be a stealthy variant or stealth optimized to say the least. They want miniaturized components of the J-31 put into the block IV.



cloud4000 said:


> Close as China - Pakistan relations are, Pakistan is not keen on rely exclusively on Chinese equipment. Turkey seems like the only country that is willing to sell Pakistan without strings attached.



That's untrue, Russians will sell tomorrow if Pakistan paid cash. The issue as I was explained a month ago was, the cost and time it would take for the PAF to train on Russian platforms and then build tactics around it. 

The UK would love to make an EFT sale to Pakistan. The issue there is, if the block 15-OCU/MLU jets from the 80's in PAF pilots hands can take out the EFT repeatedly in simulation combat.....well doesn't that mean they should buy more F-16's (used) at 20% of the cost of an EFT as they are still above performance compared to the EFT? Otherwise the EFT would be taking out the F-16's. It makes perfect logical sense. Why pay $ 80 million for a plane when your older plane costing $ 20 mil a piece can take it out??

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## surya kiran

somebody please call oldman @MastanKhan to this thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nadeemkhan110

Muhammad Omar said:


> TAI TFX has 3 different Designs i Think Pakistan should go for Single Engine cause we have an Option of dual Engine J-31 of China
> 
> But the Question is how much Pakistan will give $$$ in this project?? $500 M?
> 
> Also this will complete East and WEST Combo which Chief Sohail said in his interview


*Pakistan will have to invest about 2 billion in TAI TFX and single engine jet will not be able to carry much payload so I don't think single engine TAI TFX will be a good idea.*


----------



## Hell hound

mike2000 is back said:


> Well, if a country is worried about U.S /U.K/Western sanctions, then I'm afraid that country will have to be a closed country like N.Korea.
> So Turkey shouldn't be worried about our Sanctions in future. Since they need our help to have any chance of making their dream of building such an advanced fighter jet come true.
> 
> Anyway, as long as we continue to provide all the necessary help and assistance to Turkey in this field, then they shouldn't have much problem building this fighter jet .


i wasn't worried about them i was discussing how great this project will be for pakistan if we decide to join it.we have good ties with uk and you guys are far more open to technology sharing and less rigid than america.so the risk of senction for pakistan will far lower if engine is british.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## CriticalThinker02

nadeemkhan110 said:


> *Pakistan will have to invest about 2 billion in TAI TFX and single engine jet will not be able to carry much payload so I don't think single engine TAI TFX will be a good idea.*



But the end result would be worth it, a fifth generation fighter jet can take out any number of 4th and 4.5 generation jets, not even considering the expertise we would acquire being part of this project, money should not be an issue.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## The Eagle

SBD-3 said:


> Aircraft manufacturing and designing is a luxury. Had PAF had enough money, we would have already seen another platform making her way to Kamra. These are just things good for news for now. For a successful TFX, turkey would need at first sufficient experience of assembling and manufacturing JSF to see what would they need in their TFX and what not.



Indeed the professionals are aware of luxury and its expense hence a plan made while keeping in view the pocket as I said earlier. It is like starting to walk and next is running. If TFX interests Pakistan then I am sure, TAI and PAC/PAF are aware of our capability, potentials and share in this program though no one would be bluffing from PAC about that. Things are considered after a feasibility and reality check that too involves the economy. 

No doubt that current shape of PAF's budget is not in favour to induct a new platform on urgent basis but here we are talking about future induction, amount paid in different dates that we are not going to pay billions in a single go that too proves that currently, we are not in position to buy Hi-end stuff off the shelf to show-case. Planning is based upon long run while keeping in view the growing economy as well. Our experience from K-8 till JFT, participation in such program based upon expertise and knowledge gained from current fleet would help a lot in such program that Turkey offered that is not unnecessarily or unknowingly. 

Yet, we haven't joined the program but still I would say, if it is the case, that is going to be beneficial with lot of things for us. Aviation City/PAC is yet not committed/announced to build a total indigenous A/C of that category or it is not like that we are going to produce the A/C totally by us but could participate to the extent whereby, in future In'Sha'ALLAH we could be where many giants are today so no harm to start with little or as much as available. The JV of JFT was also started in the days when odds were not in favour or worse than today's shape but we succeeded and gained a lot while set a base for future participation. 

Turkey did not start the TFX program uselessly or without having idea of platform though they have enough of experience for a starter and still leading in many areas than others. TFX is not going to roll-out by overnight so there is still plenty of time to advance the learning and in-cooperate much needed which will be done by the passage of time.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Army research

The Eagle said:


> Indeed the professionals are aware of luxury and its expense hence a plan made while keeping in view the pocket as I said earlier. It is like starting to walk and next is running. If TFX interests Pakistan then I am sure, TAI and PAC/PAF are aware of our capability, potentials and share in this program though no one would be bluffing from PAC about that. Things are considered after a feasibility and reality check that too involves the economy.
> 
> No doubt that current shape of PAF's budget is not in favour to induct a new platform on urgent basis but here we are talking about future induction, amount paid in different dates that we are not going to pay billions in a single go that too proves that currently, we are not in position to buy Hi-end stuff off the shelf to show-case. Planning is based upon long run while keeping in view the growing economy as well. Our experience from K-8 till JFT, participation in such program based upon expertise and knowledge gained from current fleet would help a lot in such program that Turkey offered that is not unnecessarily or unknowingly.
> 
> Yet, we haven't joined the program but still I would say, if it is the case, that is going to be beneficial with lot of things for us. Aviation City/PAC is yet not committed/announced to build a total indigenous A/C of that category or it is not like that we are going to produce the A/C totally by us but could participate to the extent whereby, in future In'Sha'ALLAH we could be where many giants are today so no harm to start with little or as much as available. The JV of JFT was also started in the days when odds were not in favour or worse than today's shape but we succeeded and gained a lot while set a base for future participation.
> 
> Turkey did not start the TFX program uselessly or without having idea of platform though they have enough of experience for a starter and still leading in many areas than others. TFX is not going to roll-out by overnight so there is still plenty of time to advance the learning and in-cooperate much needed which will be done by the passage of time.


Exactly my point


----------



## volatile

Not necessarily (May be its the other way around) 
1. Turkey can easily pour money into R&D for next generation engine and become a potential big user of that engine .(Which other country in the world other than US can do other than complete product) 
2. Turkey`s closed relationship with Russia is another dimension in terms of Engine as i think this is the most trickiest part for whole project . 

So odds are in favour of Turks new plane


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> What engine are you proposing for a single engine version? The only engine available today with enough thrust is on the F-35.


From Russia or China.



Muhammad Omar said:


> TAI TFX has 3 different Designs i Think Pakistan should go for Single Engine cause we have an Option of dual Engine J-31 of China
> 
> But the Question is how much Pakistan will give $$$ in this project?? $500 M?
> 
> Also this will complete East and WEST Combo which Chief Sohail said in his interview


That is what I have been saying The TFX with the Single Engine configuration ( no need for canards). J-31 is already dual engine.



nadeemkhan110 said:


> *Pakistan will have to invest about 2 billion in TAI TFX and single engine jet will not be able to carry much payload so I don't think single engine TAI TFX will be a good idea.*



TAI TFX will be for Air-toAir Combat predominately, J-31 will have good payload and can be used in strike roles.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

SOHEIL said:


> It doesn't mean they are going to have both !



Hmm well you never know



nadeemkhan110 said:


> *Pakistan will have to invest about 2 billion in TAI TFX and single engine jet will not be able to carry much payload so I don't think single engine TAI TFX will be a good idea.*



If Payload is the Concern then we have Option of J-31


----------



## Shabi1

TFX twin engine concept has some similarity with the Chinese J-31 which is an export only project. Financially sticking with J-31 would be cheaper for Pakistan and the aircraft will be available before the TFX, but I have a theory if Pakistan joins TFX.

Would be a long shot but it is possible. Since a Turkey + Pakistan aircraft will have a nexus of both western and eastern technology. It could be that J-31 turn into TFX. Turkey will have access to Chinese aviation expertise via Pakistan and the development will be fast tracked considerably.


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> From Russia or China.



Not possible. One, they don't an engine that can replace two engines. Second, NATO won't allow a Russian or Chinese system, they forced Turkey to cancel the Chinese SAM deal.

The only engine option is from NATO countries.


----------



## Shabi1

randomradio said:


> Not possible. One, they don't an engine that can replace two engines. Second, NATO won't allow a Russian or Chinese system, they forced Turkey to cancel the Chinese SAM deal.
> 
> The only engine option is from NATO countries.



NATO doesnt have any leverage on Turkey they can choose non NATO suppliers as long as the alternatives are competitive, Turkey is making attempts to be not dependent on US. In TFX case EJ200 already chosen as the basis for a new power plant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX#Propulsion

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu announced on January 8, 2015, that the TFX will be a twin-engined fighter jet.[2] The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), the procurement agency for Turkish Armed Forces, has written a letter of intent to three engine manufacturers: General Electric, Pratt & Whitney and EUROJET Turbo.

On 20 January 2015, Aselsan of Turkey announced that it had executed a memorandum of understanding with Eurojet, the manufacturer of the EJ200 engine used in the Eurofighter Typhoon.[29] The announcement also stated that a derivative of the EJ200 will be used in the TFX program.[30][31][32][33] The two companies will additionally collaborate and co-develop engine control software systems and engine maintenance monitoring systems.[33] Turkey's selection of the EJ200 evidences TAI's intention to utilise supercruise capability.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## randomradio

Shabi1 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX#Propulsion
> 
> Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu announced on January 8, 2015, that the TFX will be a twin-engined fighter jet.[2] The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), the procurement agency for Turkish Armed Forces, has written a letter of intent to three engine manufacturers: General Electric, Pratt & Whitney and EUROJET Turbo.
> 
> On 20 January 2015, Aselsan of Turkey announced that it had executed a memorandum of understanding with Eurojet, the manufacturer of the EJ200 engine used in the Eurofighter Typhoon.[29] The announcement also stated that a derivative of the EJ200 will be used in the TFX program.[30][31][32][33] The two companies will additionally collaborate and co-develop engine control software systems and engine maintenance monitoring systems.[33] Turkey's selection of the EJ200 evidences TAI's intention to utilise supercruise capability.



I know the Turks have chosen twin engine. I was replying to your friend who wants a single engine version for the PAF.


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> I know the Turks have chosen twin engine. I was replying to your friend who wants a single engine version for the PAF.


Not true, This is an independent Turkish program, NATO has nothing to do with this project. Turkey is PAYING the UK for assistance. This Program is already US free(Though US weapons are compatible). As said Turkey can choose non NATO suppliers.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shabi1

randomradio said:


> I know the Turks have chosen twin engine. I was replying to your friend who wants a single engine version for the PAF.



Yes correct, single engine doesnt make sense for TFX as Turkey already inducting JSFs and its a incorrect myth that PAF has a single engine fighter only rule. PAF has used twin engined fighters/bombers (F-6, A-5, B-57) and can induct them in future again, was a brief requirement during the F-16 embargo era when alternatives were being sought and Mirage F-1 & 2000 were being considered.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

Shabi1 said:


> Yes correct, single engine doesnt make sense for TFX as Turkey already inducting JSFs and its a incorrect myth that PAF has a single engine fighter only rule. PAF has used twin engined fighters/bombers (F-6, A-5, B-57) and can induct them in future again, was a brief requirement during the F-16 embargo era when alternatives were being sought and Mirage F-1 & 2000 were being considered.


Yes, however a single engine variant would make sense for Pakistan as J-31 is dual (which Pakistan will probably get).


----------



## LeGenD

Viper0011. said:


> This is a separate program, allowing Turkey to be independent of the US aircraft as their relations are drifting away. The idea behind this is for Turkey to create their own 5th gen plane to make up the "Hi" of the Hi-Lo mix. F-35 will supplement that "Hi" along with the TFX. F-16's, etc, will serve the "Lo" of that mix.
> 
> Pakistan can make this their hi as well and keep the JFT and the F-16 for Lo.


The day when Turkey will quit NATO, will be a sign of the two countries parting ways (not happening anytime soon since being a member of NATO have its perks). Till then, expect Turkey to be in American camp.

However, US would not mind Turkey exporting some stuff to Pakistan.


----------



## salarsikander

What can Pakistan Possibly offer Turkish Aerospace ?


----------



## Hassan Guy

salarsikander said:


> What can Pakistan Possibly offer Turkish Aerospace ?


Help Reduce Workload (More people)
Money(not much.....we have some if we can spend 5 billion on subs THAT too for the Navy)
Manufacturing(I think it would be cheap to produce in Pakistan)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shabi1

Hassan Guy said:


> Yes, however a single engine variant would make sense for Pakistan as J-31 is dual (which Pakistan will probably get).



Why would Pakistan want to buy another platform if J-31 already inducted. Only one 5th gen platform makes sense and there is no single or double engine rule.

Our lower and mid tier fleet requirements will likely be met as our Turkish friends are working on a F-16V style upgrade package independent of US components so it is likely the F-16s will get a life refresh in future. Thunders will be following Grippen NG style evolution in Block 3,4 and beyond. So PAF planning seems good.


----------



## salarsikander

Hassan Guy said:


> Help Reduce Workload (More people)
> Money(not much.....we have some if we can spend 5 billion on subs THAT too for the Navy)
> Manufacturing(I think it would be cheap to produce in Pakistan)


Reduce workload, How ?
Its not like they need labours for tightening down the nuts or they need to hammer the wings of aircraft ? 

I dont we have skilled labour workforce for aviation sector or as we like to call them, Technician and aviation engineers. 

Manufacturing cheaper, again how ? Do we have industries ? we dont even low tech industry let alone Hi tech such as aviation. Do we have the equipment ? NO


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Hassan Guy said:


> Help Reduce Workload (More people)
> Money(not much.....we have some if we can spend 5 billion on subs THAT too for the Navy)
> Manufacturing(I think it would be cheap to produce in Pakistan)



Cheaper Components made at PAC

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HAIDER

Ind4Ever said:


> Good finally Pakistan dumped Chinese mal
> 
> 
> Jf 17 will nə developed into stealth in block 4


Turkish aircraft will take time. Right now UK is main component supplier. But, after political turmoil, everything in jeopardized. Last time, Turkey was looking at Ukraine for engine and other parts.


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> Not true, This is an independent Turkish program, NATO has nothing to do with this project. Turkey is PAYING the UK for assistance. This Program is already US free(Though US weapons are compatible). As said Turkey can choose non NATO suppliers.



Turkey can choose non-NATO suppliers, but not for the engine. At best components, that too from more reliable countries like Israel and South Africa.

There is no way NATO will ever allow a major NATO member to be held hostage by an adversary. Switching to a Russian or Chinese engine would automatically mean half the Turkish fleet will become useless during wartime.

And Pakistan is not in a position to ensure the Turks design a brand new jet with a single engine specifically for Pak when they themselves have chosen a twin engine design. The Koreans did the same because they realized a single engine jet will be less capable and possibly more expensive to develop.

If you want a single engine stealth jet, then it will have to be a light aircraft. The TFX is not.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The Eagle said:


> Indeed the professionals are aware of luxury and its expense hence a plan made while keeping in view the pocket as I said earlier. It is like starting to walk and next is running. If TFX interests Pakistan then I am sure, TAI and PAC/PAF are aware of our capability, potentials and share in this program though no one would be bluffing from PAC about that. Things are considered after a feasibility and reality check that too involves the economy.
> 
> No doubt that current shape of PAF's budget is not in favour to induct a new platform on urgent basis but here we are talking about future induction, amount paid in different dates that we are not going to pay billions in a single go that too proves that currently, we are not in position to buy Hi-end stuff off the shelf to show-case. Planning is based upon long run while keeping in view the growing economy as well. Our experience from K-8 till JFT, participation in such program based upon expertise and knowledge gained from current fleet would help a lot in such program that Turkey offered that is not unnecessarily or unknowingly.
> 
> Yet, we haven't joined the program but still I would say, if it is the case, that is going to be beneficial with lot of things for us. Aviation City/PAC is yet not committed/announced to build a total indigenous A/C of that category or it is not like that we are going to produce the A/C totally by us but could participate to the extent whereby, in future In'Sha'ALLAH we could be where many giants are today so no harm to start with little or as much as available. The JV of JFT was also started in the days when odds were not in favour or worse than today's shape but we succeeded and gained a lot while set a base for future participation.
> 
> Turkey did not start the TFX program uselessly or without having idea of platform though they have enough of experience for a starter and still leading in many areas than others. TFX is not going to roll-out by overnight so there is still plenty of time to advance the learning and in-cooperate much needed which will be done by the passage of time.


I hate to say but funding isn't that great an issue as far as the Turkish side is concerned. IMHO, they're fully aware of the financial aspects in this partnership. As the war against FETO is being won, the final bottlenecks are being put down one by one....

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Arsalan said:


> not necessarily!
> people need to undersat d that concept of PAF buying single engines only. it is not that we cannot operate twin engines.
> Also i would take what the minister have to say with a pinch of salt. he is a politician and survives by lieing! However there are other indications as well that paf may look for a JV with Turkey for fifth gen plane other than the Chinese option. If so, it will be great indeed


The indications came in earlier from the Turkish media (citing Turkish officials), so the MODP's statement was more of just a first verifiable statement to the effect.


----------



## Hassan Guy

Shabi1 said:


> Why would Pakistan want to buy another platform if J-31 already inducted. Only one 5th gen platform makes sense and there is no single or double engine rule.
> 
> Our lower and mid tier fleet requirements will likely be met as our Turkish friends are working on a F-16V style upgrade package independent of US components so it is likely the F-16s will get a life refresh in future. Thunders will be following Grippen NG style evolution in Block 3,4 and beyond. So PAF planning seems good.


Thats because across the border, 2 5th gen fighters will enter service in huge *** numbers. Some FGFA's and AMCA's, Even for the PLAAF, the J-31 will only play in part. They are also getting the J-20.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> Thats because across the border, 2 5th gen fighters will enter service in huge *** numbers. Some FGFA's and AMCA's, Even for the PLAAF, the J-31 will only play in part. They are also getting the J-20.



The J-31 is not meant for the PLAAF or PLAN. They have other jets that are coming up. J-31 is for export only.


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> The J-31 is not meant for the PLAAF or PLAN. They have other jets that are coming up. J-31 is for export only.


Export? To who? Of course it will enter service with China.



randomradio said:


> Turkey can choose non-NATO suppliers, but not for the engine. At best components, that too from more reliable countries like Israel and South Africa.
> 
> There is no way NATO will ever allow a major NATO member to be held hostage by an adversary. Switching to a Russian or Chinese engine would automatically mean half the Turkish fleet will become useless during wartime.
> 
> And Pakistan is not in a position to ensure the Turks design a brand new jet with a single engine specifically for Pak when they themselves have chosen a twin engine design. The Koreans did the same because they realized a single engine jet will be less capable and possibly more expensive to develop.
> 
> If you want a single engine stealth jet, then it will have to be a light aircraft. The TFX is not.


Single engine fighters aren't necessarily LA's.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## yılmaz

twin engine version already concluded for tfx program..turkey dont make discrimination to pakistan..

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## RedHulk

What if Pakistan go for twin engine option, along the engine of their own choice e.g WS13A? As it will be already in j-31 so maintenance will be easy. We can't go for RD93 twin engines as it leave smoke trails. More over it will keep us safe from any sanctions on EJ200 sale. I think Pakistan can commit an annual 500m $ out of 8B $ military budget for the project over the 10 years. So in total our investment will be 5B$ in the project.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> Export? To who? Of course it will enter service with China.



They have officially confirmed it is for export only. It's made by Shenyang for the export market. 

They have two new jets being made for PLAAF and PLAN. Two medium weight aircraft or one medium aircraft and one more heavy aircraft. These two jets will not be available for export either.



> Single engine fighters aren't necessarily LA's.



The issue isn't the weight alone. The issue comes from the requirement for internal weapons bays. It eats into the fuel supply and volume necessary for avionics. That's why you need a twin engine jet so you have a fuselage large enough to carry sufficient fuel and avionics.

For example, the Typhoon has the same thrust as the F-35, but carries about 40% less fuel load, and both have similar range. So it is impossible to design an internal bay into the Typhoon or it will end up with lesser range than the JF-17.

But to design a single engine stealth aircraft you need a very powerful engine. That's in the 200KN class like the F-35's engine. But right now only the US has this engine, no one else. So the only other, cheaper, option is to opt for 2 100KN engines like all other countries are doing. 

100KN engines are available from many suppliers. 1 American, 2 European, 1 Chinese, 2 Russian, and eventually 1 Indian.

And if you talk about Russia or China being able to deliver similar class engines as the F-135, you can forget about those, the Type 30 and WS-15 are not available for export. At best these countries can supply 150KN engines, and this engine is not enough to power a medium class aircraft on its own.

150KN engines are available only from Russia and the US right now.

So if you really want a single engine jet, then your only option is to design one that uses 150KN and lower thrust which means your aircraft will be around the F-16 weight class. All single engine aircraft except the F-35 are light aircraft.


----------



## HAIDER

randomradio said:


> They have officially confirmed it is for export only. It's made by Shenyang for the export market.
> 
> They have two new jets being made for PLAAF and PLAN. Two medium weight aircraft or one medium aircraft and one more heavy aircraft. These two jets will not be available for export either.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue isn't the weight alone. The issue comes from the requirement for internal weapons bays. It eats into the fuel supply and volume necessary for avionics. That's why you need a twin engine jet so you have a fuselage large enough to carry sufficient fuel and avionics.
> 
> For example, the Typhoon has the same thrust as the F-35, but carries about 40% less fuel load, and both have similar range. So it is impossible to design an internal bay into the Typhoon or it will end up with lesser range than the JF-17.
> 
> But to design a single engine stealth aircraft you need a very powerful engine. That's in the 200KN class like the F-35's engine. But right now only the US has this engine, no one else. So the only other, cheaper, option is to opt for 2 100KN engines like all other countries are doing.
> 
> 100KN engines are available from many suppliers. 1 American, 2 European, 1 Chinese, 2 Russian, and eventually 1 Indian.
> 
> And if you talk about Russia or China being able to deliver similar class engines as the F-135, you can forget about those, the Type 30 and WS-15 are not available for export. At best these countries can supply 150KN engines, and this engine is not enough to power a medium class aircraft on its own.
> 
> 150KN engines are available only from Russia and the US right now.
> 
> So if you really want a single engine jet, then your only option is to design one that uses 150KN and lower thrust which means your aircraft will be around the F-16 weight class. All single engine aircraft except the F-35 are light aircraft.


Building fighter jet is deficit financing . First explore the country need , then explore the market, where plane should be market and generate the funds for further development. Building and marketing the product is one hell of job. I would say first country should built the engine on the basis of requirements.


----------



## Imtiaz_Sarwar

So far Turkey has only sent us an invitation to join their program. Our side has not made any decision yet. I guess our senior officials must be very busy in meetings deciding all the modalities of this offer. Some of the issues could be:
How much of seed money will Pakistan put in this project.
How much of technology transfer will come to Pakistan.
How much of production work will come to Pakistan.
What new facilities will have to built to cater for new technology.
What bottlenecks can we face in this work.
How many turks will come to Pakistan and how much security will we have to provide them.
etc etc......
Right now I am waiting for our Minister of defence production to make an announcement. Are we IN or OUT

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> They have officially confirmed it is for export only. It's made by Shenyang for the export market.
> 
> They have two new jets being made for PLAAF and PLAN. Two medium weight aircraft or one medium aircraft and one more heavy aircraft. These two jets will not be available for export either.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue isn't the weight alone. The issue comes from the requirement for internal weapons bays. It eats into the fuel supply and volume necessary for avionics. That's why you need a twin engine jet so you have a fuselage large enough to carry sufficient fuel and avionics.
> 
> For example, the Typhoon has the same thrust as the F-35, but carries about 40% less fuel load, and both have similar range. So it is impossible to design an internal bay into the Typhoon or it will end up with lesser range than the JF-17.
> 
> But to design a single engine stealth aircraft you need a very powerful engine. That's in the 200KN class like the F-35's engine. But right now only the US has this engine, no one else. So the only other, cheaper, option is to opt for 2 100KN engines like all other countries are doing.
> 
> 100KN engines are available from many suppliers. 1 American, 2 European, 1 Chinese, 2 Russian, and eventually 1 Indian.
> 
> And if you talk about Russia or China being able to deliver similar class engines as the F-135, you can forget about those, the Type 30 and WS-15 are not available for export. At best these countries can supply 150KN engines, and this engine is not enough to power a medium class aircraft on its own.
> 
> 150KN engines are available only from Russia and the US right now.
> 
> So if you really want a single engine jet, then your only option is to design one that uses 150KN and lower thrust which means your aircraft will be around the F-16 weight class. All single engine aircraft except the F-35 are light aircraft.



The Ej2000 and Snecma m88 only produce 50-60kn each. Not 100 that is completely wrong. Together that makes for 100-120 in total.
China and Russia are developing single engines more powerful then that. And who said they won't be for export? in 10 years jet engines from Russia and China will be as powerful as the F-135.



Imtiaz_Sarwar said:


> So far Turkey has only sent us an invitation to join their program. Our side has not made any decision yet. I guess our senior officials must be very busy in meetings deciding all the modalities of this offer. Some of the issues could be:
> How much of seed money will Pakistan put in this project.
> How much of technology transfer will come to Pakistan.
> How much of production work will come to Pakistan.
> What new facilities will have to built to cater for new technology.
> What bottlenecks can we face in this work.
> How many turks will come to Pakistan and how much security will we have to provide them.
> etc etc......
> Right now I am waiting for our Minister of defence production to make an announcement. Are we IN or OUT


I agree, they need to answer as soon as possible otherwise we could lose the deal.


----------



## R!CK

Zarvan said:


> Turkish Air Force concept for fifth generation multi-role fighter-bomber aircraft
> - A +
> Turkey has invited Pakistan to participate in the development of its next-generation fighter program, TFX.
> 
> Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain in an interview with PTV last Sunday, said that Turkey had requested Islamabad to be part of the development program for its next-generation fighter aircraft.
> 
> Turkey is evaluating proposals for purchasing training aircraft for the Turkish Air Force, and Pakistan’s Super Mushshak trainer aircraft is a leading contender. A final decision is likely soon.
> 
> As for future collaboration, both countries are in discussions over possible cooperation on Turkey's first indigenous FX Fighter Jet program, Anadolu agency had quoted unnamed sources as saying in June this year.
> 
> Pakistan and Turkey are also collaborating on building a new warship fleet tanker. Pakistan’s Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) has launched a 17,000-tonne heavy Warship fleet tanker, which was being constructed by the company in collaborating with the Turkish firm Savunma Teknologiler Muhendisilik (STM) Sunday.
> 
> http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...ext_Gen_Fighter_Aircraft_Program#.V7x6cSNRXqB



This is a very interesting choice for PAF. Turkey is a very dedicated and committed country towards defense development. Good luck guys!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## The SC

randomradio said:


> Pakistan will either buy the TFX or the J-31, it will be one or the other. Right now Turkey has only invited Pak into the project. At the same time, the Chinese could start pressuring the Pak govt to invest in the J-31 instead.
> 
> Pak should get a pretty decent negotiations advantage. But the Chinese option is low risk.


That is why they will be getting both..and J-31 will be ready much sooner than the TFX, which is scheduled to start production in 2023, with an order of 240 for TAF.. in brief it is a long time project..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RedHulk

randomradio said:


> They have officially confirmed it is for export only. It's made by Shenyang for the export market.
> 
> They have two new jets being made for PLAAF and PLAN. Two medium weight aircraft or one medium aircraft and one more heavy aircraft. These two jets will not be available for export either.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue isn't the weight alone. The issue comes from the requirement for internal weapons bays. It eats into the fuel supply and volume necessary for avionics. That's why you need a twin engine jet so you have a fuselage large enough to carry sufficient fuel and avionics.
> 
> For example, the Typhoon has the same thrust as the F-35, but carries about 40% less fuel load, and both have similar range. So it is impossible to design an internal bay into the Typhoon or it will end up with lesser range than the JF-17.
> 
> But to design a single engine stealth aircraft you need a very powerful engine. That's in the 200KN class like the F-35's engine. But right now only the US has this engine, no one else. So the only other, cheaper, option is to opt for 2 100KN engines like all other countries are doing.
> 
> 100KN engines are available from many suppliers. 1 American, 2 European, 1 Chinese, 2 Russian, and eventually 1 Indian.
> 
> And if you talk about Russia or China being able to deliver similar class engines as the F-135, you can forget about those, the Type 30 and WS-15 are not available for export. At best these countries can supply 150KN engines, and this engine is not enough to power a medium class aircraft on its own.
> 
> 150KN engines are available only from Russia and the US right now.
> 
> So if you really want a single engine jet, then your only option is to design one that uses 150KN and lower thrust which means your aircraft will be around the F-16 weight class. All single engine aircraft except the F-35 are light aircraft.


Thats why i suggested 2 WS10A cause single engine not possible even on 100KN ...So in total the thrust of 2 WS10A will be 260KN which will be more than F135 of 180KN. It will increase the range as well. Right now F-35 range is 2200km where as J-31 with twin WS13A engine have 4000km range.
Besides engine there are other parts in which TFX won't beat F-35 any time soon.


----------



## Hassan Guy

RedHulk said:


> Thats why i suggested 2 WS10A cause single engine not possible even on 100KN ...So in total the thrust of 2 WS10A will be 200KN which will be more than F135 of 180KN. It will increase the range as well. Right now F-35 range is 2200km where as J-31 with twin WS10A engine have 4000km range.
> Besides engine there are other parts in which TFX won't beat F-35 any time soon.


In 5-10 years(when TFX comes around) China will have 180kn Engines. If not Russia will.


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> The Ej2000 and Snecma m88 only produce 50-60kn each. Not 100 that is completely wrong. Together that makes for 100-120 in total.



You are confused about the numbers. I am talking about wet thrust. If you are comparing dry thrust only, then you need your aircraft capable of generating 125+KN in dry thrust, only the F-135 can do that.



> China and Russia are developing single engines more powerful then that.



Nope. The Chinese and Russian engines are for twin engine jets. They don't deliver more power than the F-135.



> And who said they won't be for export?



How many F-100s have been exported? Zero.

The only American export grade engines are F-404 and F-414.



> in 10 years jet engines from Russia and China will be as powerful as the F-135.



That means you can start designing and flight testing your jet only after 10 years. And this jet will be ready only in 2040. That is considering the Russians or the Chinese actually export the engine. It took Russia 20 years to export the AL-31 to China and that's because it was a part of the deal which included 400+ Flankers and a lot of other deals in the 90s that went into billions and billions of dolllars.

Nobody is going to simply give you high power engines. Even the Japanese are not getting it, that's why they plan to make their own. The Koreans were also denied engines.



The SC said:


> That is why they will be getting both..and J-31 will be ready much soner than the TFX, which is scheduled to start production in 2023, with an order of 240 for TAF.. in brief it is a long time project..



PAF with both J-31 and TFX? That doesn't make sense. It's one or the other.



RedHulk said:


> Thats why i suggested 2 WS10A cause single engine not possible even on 100KN ...So in total the thrust of 2 WS10A will be 200KN which will be more than F135 of 180KN.



WS-10 is too heavy. The EJ 200 is a far superior engine family, it has 30-40% less weight, better efficiency and can be upgraded to have the same amount of thrust.



> It will increase the range as well.



That depends on how much fuel the TFX carries. The F-35 has 180KN engines, but has more than 8 tons of fuel. The AMCA is expected to have 230-240KN of thrust with 5.5 to 6.5 tons of fuel, similar to the F-15.



> Right now F-35 range is 2200km where as J-31 with twin WS10A engine have 4000km range.



No, the F-35 has far more range than 2200Km. It matches the Su-30 at least.



> Besides engine there are other parts in which TFX won't beat F-35 any time soon.



TFX is being designed for dog fights. It's being designed to compensate for the F-35's weaknesses.


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> You are confused about the numbers. I am talking about wet thrust. If you are comparing dry thrust only, then you need your aircraft capable of generating 125+KN in dry thrust, only the F-135 can do that.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. The Chinese and Russian engines are for twin engine jets. They don't deliver more power than the F-135.
> 
> 
> 
> How many F-100s have been exported? Zero.
> 
> The only American export grade engines are F-404 and F-414.
> 
> 
> 
> That means you can start designing and flight testing your jet only after 10 years. And this jet will be ready only in 2040. That is considering the Russians or the Chinese actually export the engine. It took Russia 20 years to export the AL-31 to China and that's because it was a part of the deal which included 400+ Flankers and a lot of other deals in the 90s that went into billions and billions of dolllars.
> 
> Nobody is going to simply give you high power engines. Even the Japanese are not getting it, that's why they plan to make their own. The Koreans were also denied engines.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF with both J-31 and TFX? That doesn't make sense. It's one or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> WS-10 is too heavy. The EJ 200 is a far superior engine family, it has 30-40% less weight, better efficiency and can be upgraded to have the same amount of thrust.
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on how much fuel the TFX carries. The F-35 has 180KN engines, but has more than 8 tons of fuel. The AMCA is expected to have 230-240KN of thrust with 5.5 to 6.5 tons of fuel, similar to the F-15.
> 
> 
> 
> No, the F-35 has far more range than 2200Km. It matches the Su-30 at least.
> 
> 
> 
> TFX is being designed for dog fights. It's being designed to compensate for the F-35's weaknesses.



The Most Powerful jet that Russia has built is the AL-41 it's got of 140kn of thrust. China has already gotten these when they bought the only 24 Su-35's. And a Im sure a Chinese variant is coming along.
The TFX is mainly for air to air combat. Turkey's F-35 will do the rest. That is why Pakistan will need another 5th gen platform to make up for the gaps, that is if they go for the TFX.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Basel

Shabi1 said:


> NATO doesnt have any leverage on Turkey they can choose non NATO suppliers as long as the alternatives are competitive, Turkey is making attempts to be not dependent on US. In TFX case EJ200 already chosen as the basis for a new power plant.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX#Propulsion
> 
> Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu announced on January 8, 2015, that the TFX will be a twin-engined fighter jet.[2] The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), the procurement agency for Turkish Armed Forces, has written a letter of intent to three engine manufacturers: General Electric, Pratt & Whitney and EUROJET Turbo.
> 
> On 20 January 2015, Aselsan of Turkey announced that it had executed a memorandum of understanding with Eurojet, the manufacturer of the EJ200 engine used in the Eurofighter Typhoon.[29] The announcement also stated that a derivative of the EJ200 will be used in the TFX program.[30][31][32][33] The two companies will additionally collaborate and co-develop engine control software systems and engine maintenance monitoring systems.[33] Turkey's selection of the EJ200 evidences TAI's intention to utilise supercruise capability.



Future blocks could have EJ-230 engines too. With 2 EJ-200 and advance material and tech support from west the TFX will be superior in terms of performance compared to J-31 with 2 RD-93s and its tech.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> The Most Powerful jet that Russia has built is the AL-41 it's got of 140kn of thrust. China has already gotten these when they bought the only 24 Su-35's. And a Im sure a Chinese variant is coming along.



That's a Su-35 contract. The Chinese variant will not have Su-35's engine. And you are comparing wrong countries, China bought 400+ Flankers from Russia, what has Pakistan done?

Also, the 140KN engine is inferior to the F-35's 180KN engine. TFX requires more than 200KN.



> That is why Pakistan will need another 5th gen platform to make up for the gaps, that is if they go for the TFX.



So why will you buy two aircraft that do the same thing? J-31 is no different from the TFX.


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> That's a Su-35 contract. The Chinese variant will not have Su-35's engine. And you are comparing wrong countries, China bought 400+ Flankers from Russia, what has Pakistan done?
> 
> Also, the 140KN engine is inferior to the F-35's 180KN engine. TFX requires more than 200KN.
> 
> 
> 
> So why will you buy two aircraft that do the same thing? J-31 is no different from the TFX.



If you check China is an operator of the Saturn AL-41.
Btw China doesn't buy anymore su-27's flankers they produce the J-11.
You don't understand what im saying. China produces engines based on the Russian ones. They will do the same with the Al-41. Eg WS-13 based on RD-93 and a bit better, For JF-17 and J-31.
China will be developing it's own variant of the Al-41, which Pakistan could get.
We don't know how much thrust the TFX will need, it's not even off the drawing board. Im sure in 10 years China could produce a more powerful engine.

Bro...The TFX is an air superiority jet like the F-22. The J-31 is multirole like F-35.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

dadeechi said:


> So Pakistan is going to have two 5th generation fighter programs..in TFX & J-31
> 
> This is going to be a huge boost to PAF.
> 
> Hope GoI & IAF shows urgency on PAK-FA/FGFA & F-35 deals.


It seems you are jumping the gun here of future deals PAF might get involved in regards to 5 gen aircraft. PAF is looking at various options both individual as well as joint ventures. 

Historically PAF has maintained both Western and Eastern together so they are capable to do it in the future as well. The limitation is financial hence it could be very difficult to procure US made aircraft. However if Pakistan through Turkey and China find common solutions then PAF might have both Western and Eastern aircraft. 

Recently work on aviation city has commenced hence we do know this much that some thing big is going to come up in the future. 

Never knew India is dependent on Pakistan...As a sovereign state India should procure what she feels are required to protect her self...



Arsalan said:


> Oh it sure is practical! The single engine plane i mean. What i am saying is that is it NOT necessarily that we will decide not to procure a system just because it is twin engine in the future.


Sir,
In my opinion PAF should be looking to further develop the JF-17 programe with a stealth aircraft. This would be a single engine one...

TFX might provide Pakistan both designs hence reduced development costs.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> If you check China is an operator of the Saturn AL-41.
> Btw China doesn't buy anymore su-27's flankers they produce the J-11.



The Su-27SK is called J-11, that was followed by the J-11A. Both came from Russian license, far more than 200 were produced. Then there's the Su-30MKK, they bought a hundred of those. More recently there's the Su-35. J-11B(Su-27) is the rip off, along with J-15(Su-33) and J-16(Su-30MKK).

Pak can buy 300 Su-35s today and even then won't get the Type 30. The Russians simply won't export it. The PAK FA's 117 itself is not available for export, forget the Type 30. And the engine will be co-owned by India. You think India will allow Russia to export PAK FA technologies to Pak? Russia is not even close to being an option for Pak. It's like expecting Brahmos for Pak. India and Russia will jointly own this technology.



> You don't understand what im saying. China produces engines based on the Russian ones. They will do the same with the Al-41. Eg WS-13 based on RD-93 and a bit better, For JF-17 and J-31.



No they don't. And this argument is irrelevant anyway. The Chinese don't have a F-135 class engine and when they develop one, they won't give it to Pakistan or Turkey.

The Chinese are worse than the Soviet Union. They make separate products for export. They will give Pak the choice of J-31 or nothing. J-20 or its engine is not available for export.



> Bro...The TFX is an air superiority jet like the F-22. The J-31 is multirole like F-35.



TFX and J-31 are similar, both are like the F-22, but much smaller. F-35 is a strike fighter.

F-22 max thrust = 330KN
TFX = expected to be about 200+KN
AMCA = 230+KN
J-31 = Currently has 176KN
F-35 = 185KN
PAK FA = 360KN
J-20 = 360KN

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> The Su-27SK is called J-11, that was followed by the J-11A. Both came from Russian license, far more than 200 were produced. Then there's the Su-30MKK, they bought a hundred of those. More recently there's the Su-35. J-11B(Su-27) is the rip off, along with J-15(Su-33) and J-16(Su-30MKK).
> 
> Pak can buy 300 Su-35s today and even then won't get the Type 30. The Russians simply won't export it. The PAK FA's 117 itself is not available for export, forget the Type 30. And the engine will be co-owned by India. You think India will allow Russia to export PAK FA technologies to Pak? Russia is not even close to being an option for Pak. It's like expecting Brahmos for Pak. India and Russia will jointly own this technology.
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't. And this argument is irrelevant anyway. The Chinese don't have a F-135 class engine and when they develop one, they won't give it to Pakistan or Turkey.
> 
> The Chinese are worse than the Soviet Union. They make separate products for export. They will give Pak the choice of J-31 or nothing. J-20 or its engine is not available for export.
> 
> 
> 
> TFX and J-31 are similar, both are like the F-22, but much smaller. F-35 is a strike fighter.
> 
> F-22 max thrust = 330KN
> TFX = expected to be about 200+KN
> AMCA = 230+KN
> J-31 = Currently has 176KN
> F-35 = 185KN
> PAK FA = 360KN
> J-20 = 360KN


Pakistan bought Mi-35's from Russia which was heavily opposed by India. The PAK FA is a Russian Fighter jet from the ground up. The FGFA is what India has joined in on. Obviously the FGFA won't be for export other then India like SU-30mki, But Su-35 has been an option. India doesn't control which equipment Russia exports. If Pakistan can look into Su-35's while India has MKI the same could happen for FA's. PAK FA and FGFA are different.

Pakistan will most likely be using the WS-13 once it's finished.


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

Hassan Guy said:


> Pakistan bought Mi-35's from Russia which was heavily opposed by India. The PAK FA is a Russian Fighter jet from the ground up. The FGFA is what India has joined in on. Obviously the FGFA won't be for export other then India like SU-30mki, But Su-35 has been an option. India doesn't control which equipment Russia exports. If Pakistan can look into Su-35's while India has MKI the same could happen for FA's. PAK FA and FGFA are different.
> 
> Pakistan will most likely be using the WS-13 once it's finished.



U and I have similar name.......heheh....So wither u talk or me...I m assuming its same.......hahahahha


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> Pakistan bought Mi-35's from Russia which was heavily opposed by India.



India did not oppose its sale. It's actually a very old helicopter and poses no threat to India. India is giving away Mi-35s to Afghanistan. The Russians sold it to Pak in order to push them into fighting the ISIS that's gaining ground in Afghan and Pakistan. A lot of TTP militants have now joined ISIS.



> The PAK FA is a Russian Fighter jet from the ground up. The FGFA is what India has joined in on. Obviously the FGFA won't be for export other then India like SU-30mki, But Su-35 has been an option. India doesn't control which equipment Russia exports. If Pakistan can look into Su-35's while India has MKI the same could happen for FA's. PAK FA and FGFA are different.



PAK FA and FGFA are the same. Both will have the same engine, same radar etc.

Su-35 is not on the table for Pakistan, regardless of what your reporters have been telling you.



> Pakistan will most likely be using the WS-13 once it's finished.



So your stealth aircraft will be as small as the JF-17? If you use a engine of the WS-13 class, then your aircraft will be a light aircraft.

TFX is being designed for 2 WS-13 class engines.


----------



## RedHulk

randomradio said:


> WS-10 is too heavy. The EJ 200 is a far superior engine family, it has 30-40% less weight, better efficiency and can be upgraded to have the same amount of thrust.
> 
> That depends on how much fuel the TFX carries. The F-35 has 180KN engines, but has more than 8 tons of fuel. The AMCA is expected to have 230-240KN of thrust with 5.5 to 6.5 tons of fuel, similar to the F-15.



2 WS10A will be of 4 ton weight but the thrust of 260KN will compensate it easily and will allow to expand fuel n weapon bay in TFX. where as 2 EJ200 is of only 2 tone with 120KN. I know right now WS10A is still under improvement but by the time TFX will be assembled it will be ready for export to Pakistan hope so. 
or may be a single engine of WS10A can be used with thrust of 130KN.


----------



## Army research

Please people stop saying JF-17 would be made stealth this will not happen unless Pakistan finds oil or gold , and even then only partly stealth like f15 it's later block if they come would not exceed the fourth generation so please and other man come on tfx is still on drawing board so why are you comparing it with other planes all we know it will be an f16 of the future hence paf interest


----------



## randomradio

RedHulk said:


> 2 WS10A will be of 4 ton weight but the thrust of 260KN will compensate it easily and will allow to expand fuel n weapon bay in TFX. where as 2 EJ200 is of only 2 tone with 120KN. I know right now WS10A is still under improvement but by the time TFX will be assembled it will be ready for export to Pakistan hope so.
> or may be a single engine of WS10A can be used with thrust of 130KN.



It's not just the weight, you need to look at the dimensions also. The WS-10 is a massive engine. It will reduce your fuel load and unnecessarily increase your empty weight by 1T.

Single engine version will be inferior to the twin engine version if you are using the WS-10.

And you first need the engine before you start testing. And this process takes years, a decade at least.


----------



## RedHulk

randomradio said:


> It's not just the weight, you need to look at the dimensions also. The WS-10 is a massive engine. It will reduce your fuel load and unnecessarily increase your empty weight by 1T.
> 
> Single engine version will be inferior to the twin engine version if you are using the WS-10.
> 
> And you first need the engine before you start testing. And this process takes years, a decade at least.



Then only option left for Pakistan is to use twin WS13A of 200KN but then J31 already got them. So whats the big deal of joining TFX, Nothing, just go n buy j31 . Yayee we got the engine which made for us only Now lets start making TRX or i mean TFX 

*World Turbofan Aircraft Engines*

19 tons (or 190 KiloNewtons) of wet thrust (which means with afterburner)
19.1 tons (for F-35/JSF) - Pratt & Whitney F135 (in service 2009 - dates are approximate).
Important note: F135 has a high bypass ratio and F-35 cannot supercruise.

18 tons of wet thrust
18 tons (for J-20) - China's WS-15 ("Initial Operational Capability"/IOC 2020. Successful prototype operation in 2005). WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and J-20 can supercruise.

15 tons of wet thrust
15.6 tons (for F-22) - Pratt & Whitney F119 (IOC 2004). F119 has a low bypass ratio and F-22 can supercruise.

15.5 tons - China's WS-10G (Global Security believes it was installed on J-20 prototype in 2011)

14 tons of wet thrust
14.5 tons (for T-50/Pak-Fa) - AL-41F (in service 2010)

13 tons of wet thrust
13.2 tons (for J-10, J-11, and J-15) - China's WS-10A (in service 2009)

13.2 tons (for Russian Su-30) - AL-31FM1 (in service 2007)

12 tons of wet thrust
12.5 tons (for J-10A) - AL-31FN (in service 2002)

8 tons of wet thrust
8.9 tons (for Eurofighter Typhoon) - Eurojet EJ200 (in service 1991)

7 tons of wet thrust
7.5 tons (for French Rafale) - Snecma M88-2 (in service 1996)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## waz

Pakistan should take the opportunity.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Mohammad ahsen

anatolia said:


> hey pakistani brothers;
> it may not be best fighter on earth but it would be ours (both TURKISH AND PAKISTAN) !!.


bro when her first block he best but we make best by upgrading him just like pakistan doing in jf 17



HAKIKAT said:


> I hate to say but funding isn't that great an issue as far as the Turkish side is concerned. IMHO, they're fully aware of the financial aspects in this partnership. As the war against FETO is being won, the final bottlenecks are being put down one by one....


you not worry pakistan invest 3 to 5 billion dollar in this projecy

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

randomradio said:


> TFX is being designed for 2 WS-13 class engines.


This might be a possibility.

What is so far known is EJ-200 is offered. Turkey is still waiting for EJ-220 that is being developed for EFT Trench 3. 

Turkey has also negotiated with Ukraine to provide engine technology that could be improved locally. However the exact engine is unknown speculations are it would be a new engine produced as a joint venture.


----------



## randomradio

RedHulk said:


> Then only option left for Pakistan is to use twin WS13A of 200KN but then J31 already got them. So whats the big deal of joining TFX, Nothing, just go n buy j31 . Yayee we got the engine which made for us only Now lets start making TRX or i mean TFX



That's why one or the other.

But you can use that as a negotiations advantage. You can go tell Turkey China is offering this or that and vice versa, so you get a better deal. India's doing that with MRCA.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This might be a possibility.
> 
> What is so far known is EJ-200 is offered. Turkey is still waiting for EJ-220 that is being developed for EFT Trench 3.
> 
> Turkey has also negotiated with Ukraine to provide engine technology that could be improved locally. However the exact engine is unknown speculations are it would be a new engine produced as a joint venture.



Some misunderstanding here. I meant TFX is being designed for engines in the 90-120KN thrust class, like RD-93, F-414, WS-13, EJ200, M88-3 etc, not that they will be choosing the WS-13 or anything.

They have chosen the EJ200 family, but the British have put the brakes on their cooperation for now.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> India did not oppose its sale. It's actually a very old helicopter and poses no threat to India. India is giving away Mi-35s to Afghanistan. The Russians sold it to Pak in order to push them into fighting the ISIS that's gaining ground in Afghan and Pakistan. A lot of TTP militants have now joined ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> PAK FA and FGFA are the same. Both will have the same engine, same radar etc.
> 
> Su-35 is not on the table for Pakistan, regardless of what your reporters have been telling you.
> 
> 
> 
> So your stealth aircraft will be as small as the JF-17? If you use a engine of the WS-13 class, then your aircraft will be a light aircraft.
> 
> TFX is being designed for 2 WS-13 class engines.



Russian military hardware is available to Pakistan nowadays, they lifted their embargo a while back. The issues come from funding and cash.
I never said anything about a stealth Jf-17. WS-13 engine if for the current Block 3's which aren't LA's.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> Russian military hardware is available to Pakistan nowadays, they lifted their embargo a while back. The issues come from funding and cash.
> I never said anything about a stealth Jf-17. WS-13 engine if for the current Block 3's which aren't LA's.



It doesn't matter, the Type 30 will be co-owned by India. It's like expecting Brahmos sales to Pak. And there are certain technologies that aren't available to anybody. Like Brahmos-2 is not for export. US, China and Russia won't be selling you any high power modern engines. You can at best expect export clearance for old generation engines like the WS-13, RD-93 and AL-31.

JF-17 Block 3 is also a LA, it will use only 1 WS-13. TFX is medium class, it will use 2 WS-13s 'class' engines, basically 2 EJ2X0.


----------



## hussain0216

randomradio said:


> That's why one or the other.
> 
> But you can use that as a negotiations advantage. You can go tell Turkey China is offering this or that and vice versa, so you get a better deal. India's doing that with MRCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Some misunderstanding here. I meant TFX is being designed for engines in the 90-120KN thrust class, like RD-93, F-414, WS-13, EJ200, M88-3 etc, not that they will be choosing the WS-13 or anything.
> 
> They have chosen the EJ200 family, but the British have put the brakes on their cooperation for now.



Turkeys military development is on western lines, if we opt for both J31 and TFX we can get a eastern and western plane from reliable sources

Or maybe Pakistan would jusy join to have access to some technologies that could be utilised in future Pakistan planes


----------



## Signalian

hussain0216 said:


> Turkeys military development is on western lines, if we opt for both J31 and TFX we can get a eastern and western plane from reliable sources


Soft loans is one viable way otherwise cash stripped.



> Or maybe Pakistan would jusy join to have access to some technologies that could be utilised in future Pakistan planes



which future plane?

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex should have gone ahead to make a medium strike fighter after the development of JF-17. The world is progressing towards 6th gen which may be pilot-less while PAC's initiatives are not concrete, whether developmental participation in TFX or J-31.


----------



## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> Also, the 140KN engine is inferior to the F-35's 180KN engine. TFX requires more than 200KN.
> So why will you buy two aircraft that do the same thing? J-31 is no different from the TFX.



what? the tfx needs 200kn? they have only released concept images let alone specs. heck it could be as small as the x-2 from japan. which has a wet thrust of 49 kn that 98kn combined. lets not jump the gun here. we dont even know what eurojet is offering here

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## randomradio

hussain0216 said:


> Turkeys military development is on western lines, if we opt for both J31 and TFX we can get a eastern and western plane from reliable sources



The logic is sound, but that wouldn't make sense for the same class of aircraft. It's a major waste of resources. And Turkey isn't a reliable source if the engine comes from Britain.

If Pak goes for the TFX and asks China to develop a light stealth aircraft in the F-16/JF-17 weight class, then it would make sense. TFX would be ready only after 2030 while J-31 is expected after 2025. PAF can go straight for the J-31 and then look for something else to replace the JF-17s after 2030. But the drawback with the Chinese is they won't give you their best tech.

Realistically, your economy in the post 2030 period won't allow you to maintain a competing military with India. So you will have to start considering minimum deterrence even in conventional capabilities. So aim to have 4-6 squadrons of very high quality aircraft instead.


----------



## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> In my opinion PAF should be looking to further develop the JF-17 programe with a stealth aircraft. This would be a single engine one...
> 
> TFX might provide Pakistan both designs hence reduced development costs.


As mentioned repeatedly, JF17 was NEVER meant to be a 5th gen. plane and it is already what it was meant to be. So all that can happen are gradual modifications and upgrades which will make this a more potent plane but in this same league!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> what? the tfx needs 200kn? they have only released concept images let alone specs. heck it could be as small as the x-2 from japan. which has a wet thrust of 49 kn that 98kn combined.



The Japanese aircraft will have two 150KN engines when finished. What they have right now is a TD.



> we dont even know what eurojet is offering here



They've offered the EJ200 family with TVC.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...engine-for-turkish-made-fighter-jet/76890154/


----------



## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> The Japanese aircraft will have two 150KN engines when finished. What they have right now is a TD.
> 
> 
> 
> They've offered the EJ200 family with TVC.
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...engine-for-turkish-made-fighter-jet/76890154/


you got proof they can squeeze that much power into an engine that powers a plane the size of an advanced trainer?

as for you second part. well done captain, obvious but what variant of the ej-200? euro-jet only makes one engine. heck it could be a new engine based of the ej-200. which is why i said euro-jet not the ej-200


----------



## AlyxMS

RedHulk said:


> Then only option left for Pakistan is to use twin WS13A of 200KN but then J31 already got them. So whats the big deal of joining TFX, Nothing, just go n buy j31 . Yayee we got the engine which made for us only Now lets start making TRX or i mean TFX
> 
> *World Turbofan Aircraft Engines*
> 
> 19 tons (or 190 KiloNewtons) of wet thrust (which means with afterburner)
> 19.1 tons (for F-35/JSF) - Pratt & Whitney F135 (in service 2009 - dates are approximate).
> Important note: F135 has a high bypass ratio and F-35 cannot supercruise.
> 
> 18 tons of wet thrust
> 18 tons (for J-20) - China's WS-15 ("Initial Operational Capability"/IOC 2020. Successful prototype operation in 2005). WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and J-20 can supercruise.
> 
> 15 tons of wet thrust
> 15.5 tons - China's WS-10G (Global Security believes it was installed on J-20 prototype in 2011)
> 
> 13 tons of wet thrust
> 13.2 tons (for J-10, J-11, and J-15) - China's WS-10A (in service 2009)



While I appreciate your optimism for Chinese jet engines, most data on the list is simply not true.

There's no data about the thrust for WS-15(the J-20 engine), Chinese military fans estimated it to be around 15.5 to 16 tonnes.

There is no "WS-10G". It's just a rumor that was around the Chinese internet back when the J-20 was flying for the first time. The rumor started because the J-20 used a never-seen-before engine nozzle for its AL-31F engine. And the only engine that has ever been installed on the J-20 is the AL-31F. From the initial "2001" to the lastest "2101".

The data for WS-10A seems reasonable but I would like to add that there is a rumored "WS-10B" with 14 tonnes of thrust(some optimistic people said it is 14.5 tonnes, personally I think that's unrealistic, you can't just improve a engine's TWR by that much). I won't have my hopes up but it might be believable.

Also thanks for mentioning the high bypass ratio for the F-135.
Something people are just forgetting when commenting about it's massive 180kN of thrust.
The high bypass ratio hurts it's high speed performance, something to be avoided for air-superiority fighters.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> It doesn't matter, the Type 30 will be co-owned by India. It's like expecting Brahmos sales to Pak. And there are certain technologies that aren't available to anybody. Like Brahmos-2 is not for export. US, China and Russia won't be selling you any high power modern engines. You can at best expect export clearance for old generation engines like the WS-13, RD-93 and AL-31.
> 
> JF-17 Block 3 is also a LA, it will use only 1 WS-13. TFX is medium class, it will use 2 WS-13s 'class' engines, basically 2 EJ2X0.


AL-41 is not a huge jump from AL-31 (China is developing improved WS-10). Only 10-20kn difference, and it is available to Pakistan as it is engine of J-10. Even though they are meant for use in dual configuration they work in single as well.


----------



## randomradio

Hassan Guy said:


> AL-41 is not a huge jump from AL-31 (China is developing improved WS-10). Only 10-20kn difference, and it is available to Pakistan as it is engine of J-10. Even though they are meant for use in dual configuration they work in single as well.



All the engines you are talking about will get you only light aircraft. Check what's on the F-16 first.

I don't think there is any point in continuing this discussion. Turkey has already chosen the EJ200 engines.


----------



## Hassan Guy

randomradio said:


> All the engines you are talking about will get you only light aircraft. Check what's on the F-16 first.
> 
> I don't think there is any point in continuing this discussion. Turkey has already chosen the EJ200 engines.


Many single engine plane's aren't LA's, those are for different purposes but still good.


----------



## Centurion2016

No offence

Why would PAF join a fifth generation project with a nation like turkey that has a fraction of the resources , know how technology and project expertise of China .....

Realistically the building of fifth generation fighter belongs to USA china and joint euro effort by Germany UK and france.

Even Russia is struggling with PAK FA.

I maybe wrong I don't see this going behind concept drawings.

License buildimg F16 under NATO supervision is completely different to building a multi billion dollr 5th generation fightr

CHINA & RUSSIA have tried for 10 years and spent billions dollatrs to achieve very little yet


----------



## Hassan Guy

Centurion2016 said:


> No offence
> 
> Why would PAF join a fifth generation project with a nation like turkey that has a fraction of the resources , know how technology and project expertise of China .....
> 
> Realistically the building of fifth generation fighter belongs to USA china and joint euro effort by Germany UK and france.
> 
> Even Russia is struggling with PAK FA.
> 
> I maybe wrong I don't see this going behind concept drawings.
> 
> License buildimg F16 under NATO supervision is completely different to building a multi billion dollr 5th generation fightr
> 
> CHINA & RUSSIA have tried for 10 years and spent billions dollatrs to achieve very little yet


BAE systems is helping. Plus the engine will be bought as well.


----------



## tarrar

This is an excellent opportunity for our engineers to learn new technology & work on it.


----------



## Hassan Guy

When the Turks where considering the single engine variants including the canard one. What where the engine options being evaluated?


----------



## cabatli_53



Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## XILLAX

cabatli_53 said:


>



The pic on the left side which airplane is showed ?


----------



## muhammadali233

XILLAX said:


> The pic on the left side which airplane is showed ?







From the rough looks of the shaky photo taken from a patoto camera, it seems it is a F-22 Raptor screen shot from a PC game Arma 2

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

SBD-3 said:


> Its rather because we can't buy western equipment, so it feels good to have a western tag on whatever we buy.



We can buy western equipment, but overtime, we have gotten used to Chinese subsidies and Chinese translators.

Aircraft are not bought by engine count, they are bought for a particular mission profile. If single engine aircraft are able to be included in the defined and proven "package" then a twin engine is not required. Many in PAF today have flown twin engines and know the advantages. The decision makers are adequately equipped to decide the course of action for PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## SBD-3

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We can buy western equipment, but overtime, we have gotten used to Chinese subsidies and Chinese translators.


FYI we're even buying Chinese equipment on soft loans. If you can afford even the cheaper products on installments, forget about buying expensive ones on cash.


----------



## SouI

Hassan Guy said:


> That doesn't matter, They built a VTOL and Carrier based Aircraft into ONE airframe.


That is true but we will not do it.


----------



## Hassan Guy

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We can buy western equipment, but overtime, we have gotten used to Chinese subsidies and Chinese translators.
> 
> Aircraft are not bought by engine count, they are bought for a particular mission profile. If single engine aircraft are able to be included in the defined and proven "package" then a twin engine is not required. Many in PAF today have flown twin engines and know the advantages. The decision makers are adequately equipped to decide the course of action for PAF.


Maybe that is one reason why PAF has not committed to any 5th gen platform yet.


----------



## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We can buy western equipment, but overtime, we have gotten used to Chinese subsidies and Chinese translators.
> 
> Aircraft are not bought by engine count, they are bought for a particular mission profile. If single engine aircraft are able to be included in the defined and proven "package" then a twin engine is not required. Many in PAF today have flown twin engines and know the advantages. The decision makers are adequately equipped to decide the course of action for PAF.


With all due respect this is my problem with your posts. You need to take the opportunity to teach us what the decision makers take into account and whyyl we have chosen to go for a single engined fighter. Please educate us and perhaps one of us will gain from the knowledge that you impart. I certainly enjoy your posts but a little bit more detail will help. 
A

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tipu7

cabatli_53 said:


>


Final design?


----------



## Mo12

this will end up a disaster, Turket economy is to small and doesnt have the expertise like Russia and China is making these jets.


----------



## Hassan Guy

Mo12 said:


> this will end up a disaster, Turket economy is to small and doesnt have the expertise like Russia and China is making these jets.


BAE systems is helping, they will be fine

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## XILLAX

Mo12 said:


> this will end up a disaster, Turket economy is to small and doesnt have the expertise like Russia and China is making these jets.



Maybe nowdays but it was not always so

Transport






Fighter plane





Stealth plane wasnt planed but looking like it





Today










We are on the right way to getting a place into the global players like in 1940 again

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## SBD-3

Bye bye TFX for now.







muhammadali233 said:


> From the rough looks of the shaky photo taken from a patoto camera, it seems it is a F-22 Raptor screen shot from a PC game Arma 2


It's JSF (DSI inlets vs rectangular of F-22)


----------



## Muhammad Omar

SBD-3 said:


> Bye bye TFX for now.
> View attachment 335968
> 
> 
> 
> It's JSF (DSI inlets vs rectangular of F-22)



LOL looks like we are back at J-31


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

SBD-3 said:


> Bye bye TFX for now.
> View attachment 335968



@cabatli_53 ...Sir, is it true?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SBD-3 said:


> Bye bye TFX for now.
> View attachment 335968
> 
> 
> 
> It's JSF (DSI inlets vs rectangular of F-22)


It's been delayed. Alan Warnes is saying that plans to have the TFX fly by 2023 - which was very unlikely to happen anyways - have been abandoned. They don't have a date for the maiden flight, but the program is still alive.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's been delayed. Alan Warnes is saying that plans to have the TFX fly by 2023 - which was very unlikely to happen anyways - have been abandoned. They don't have a date for the maiden flight, but the program is still alive.


Given that the airoplane is still on drawing board, and we are looking at a Fifth generation platform, I think we wont see the light of the day before 2028 and that too being optimistic. Inspite of help from BAE systems, I think 5th generation platforms pose a lot of technical difficulties which lower generation ones dont.
A


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Given that the airoplane is still on drawing board, and we are looking at a Fifth generation platform, I think we wont see the light of the day before 2028 and that too being optimistic. Inspite of help from BAE systems, I think 5th generation platforms pose a lot of technical difficulties which lower generation ones dont.
> A


As per our own ACM we are just conceptualizing what an ideal next-gen platform would look like, so we're not too far off from where the Turks are in this regard. I expect the PAF would induct such a platform around the late 2020s, maybe even early 2030s.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As per our own ACM we are just conceptualizing what an ideal next-gen platform would look like, so we're not too far off from where the Turks are in this regard. I expect the PAF would induct such a platform around the late 2020s, maybe even early 2030s.


Being risk averse i would have a really good look at the Chinese offerings as there will be one sooner than that. The Turks would be good for subsystems to induct in your platform but i dont think we will go with a provider which has no history of developing planes at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Arsalan

araz said:


> Being risk averse i would have a really good look at the Chinese offerings as there will be one sooner than that. The Turks would be good for subsystems to induct in your platform but i dont think we will go with a provider which has no history of developing planes at all.


One highly possible scenario can be where PAF opts for what the Chinese have to offer, induct and and start using it as it is. This will make it possible to get a fifth gen. relatively earlier (compered to Turkish option). Later on when the Turkish system matures we may see some of the goodies inducted in the 5th generation PAF already have in service, that will give us that taste of western tech that we are looking for. Two birds with one stone. However, it is MUCH easier said than done.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rafael

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777914403794681856


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Being risk averse i would have a really good look at the Chinese offerings as there will be one sooner than that. The Turks would be good for subsystems to induct in your platform but i dont think we will go with a perovider which has no history of developing planes at all.


We have to remember that "China" is not a singular entity. The PAF has had a developmental relationship with Chengdu, not Shenyang, which is currently leading the FC-31 program. Furthermore, next-gen fighter development is expensive, and without orders from the PLAAF or PLAN, the PAF would end up sustaining the burden of the R&D overhead of the FC-31. So these (lack of scale and different vendor) are two issues with the FC-31 at the moment. 

Also, we need to pay more attention to what the PAF is saying. It is very telling that in the context of the next-gen platform, the ACM did _*not *_mention the Chinese. I take this is as a sign that not all bets are off, that an alternative scenario that we don't consider likely could be under examination.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We have to remember that "China" is not a singular entity. The PAF has had a developmental relationship with Chengdu, not Shenyang, which is currently leading the FC-31 program. Furthermore, next-gen fighter development is expensive, and without orders from the PLAAF or PLAN, the PAF would end up sustaining the burden of the R&D overhead of the FC-31. So these (lack of scale and different vendor) are two issues with the FC-31 at the moment.
> 
> Also, we need to pay more attention to what the PAF is saying. It is very telling that in the context of the next-gen platform, the ACM did _*not *_mention the Chinese. I take this is as a sign that not all bets are off, that an alternative scenario that we don't consider likely could be under examination.


Given the fact that the Chinbese will have few takers for their 5th generation offerings, they will have to keep the price competitive. PAFs needs for the 5th generation fighter will be small so they will likely get platforms off the shelf. I think what the PAF has said has been said in relation to 6th generation platform which we may develop of our own steam (if that ever comes anbout).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mike2000 is back

araz said:


> The Turks would be good for subsystems to induct in your platform but i dont think we will go with a provider which has no history of developing planes at all.



We are helping them. So it shouldn't be a problem, if everything goes well and there is no political instability/changes. 



> Rafael, post: 8706884, member: 11330"]
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777914403794681856


Lool Really? I haven't heard anything as such.


----------



## N.Siddiqui

Pakistan is exporting super Mushawks to Turkey.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Given the fact that the Chinbese will have few takers for their 5th generation offerings, they will have to keep the price competitive. PAFs needs for the 5th generation fighter will be small so they will likely get platforms off the shelf. I think what the PAF has said has been said in relation to 6th generation platform which we may develop of our own steam (if that ever comes anbout).


It depends on whether Beijing (in the absence of a PLAAF or PLAN order) is willing to invest in the FC-31 and not distribute the R&D overhead to buyers. Instead, play the long-game by exacting a small profit atop of the cost of materials and labour. The risk in this approach is that they may not profit off the program, especially if there's only 1 or 2 FC-31 customers.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## tarrar

Pakistan options are FC31 & TFX, as SU35 is probably not going to happen. So this is a good opportunity for Pakistan to be part of FC31 & TFX program. Although FC31 has advanced further, but still a lot can be done to improve FC31 by both Pak & Chinese research & engineer team, but who knows may be Pakistan is already part of FC31 project.


----------



## royalharris

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It depends on whether Beijing (in the absence of a PLAAF or PLAN order) is willing to invest in the FC-31 and not distribute the R&D overhead to buyers. Instead, play the long-game by exacting a small profit atop of the cost of materials and labour. The risk in this approach is that they may not profit off the program, especially if there's only 1 or 2 FC-31 customers.


if Select TFX, we are ok, have a good luck. Plaaf will not select FC31;Plan maybe,but not sure,theoritcally F31 is easy to be deployed on AC,but Plan want longer range and larger munition capacity. For SAC,Developping FC31, one side , want to be successfull in market, the other side, even not succeed, not a big deal, at least build up the experience and R&D team, pave the way for 6th generation figher.until now there is no signs of FC31 will be state fianced. According to SAC, some oversea custmer already talk about co-development, seems to be not parkistan which still puzzled between FC31/TFX. when FC31 matured, i think there will be policy of first in first get.but considering the relationship, in some specail situation, parkistan maybe can get some priority and good price,but this is not just decided by china

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## YeBeWarned

PAF next Gen choice will highly be depended on JF-17 block 3 and its Performance results ..its not a Fact just my Opinion ..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## royalharris

Starlord said:


> PAF next Gen choice will highly be depended on JF-17 block 3 and its Performance results ..its not a Fact just my Opinion ..


don't put much wish on it, a aircraft potential and limitation has been fixed on the design phase.just like whatever upgration, don't wish a upgraded F4 to take on F16. the next generation is borned to kill the old one.


----------



## That Guy

mike2000 is back said:


> Lool Really? I haven't heard anything as such.


Shouldn't really be surprising, the coup has done quite a bit of damage to the Turkish economy, even their credit rating has gone down to essentially junk. They're going to have to rebuild investor confidence, and while it will take a while, they'll probably come out stronger, as the chances of another coup (or merely military interference) are essentially dead.


----------



## YeBeWarned

royalharris said:


> don't put much wish on it, a aircraft potential and limitation has been fixed on the design phase.just like whatever upgration, don't wish a upgraded F4 to take on F16. the next generation is borned to kill the old one.



i haven't wish for anything .. i believe that PAF will be looking at block 3 Performance compared to F-16 block 52's ... after new EU suites , more hard points , and Engine upgrade ( if ) and IFR, HOBS etc 
the next Gen will be chosen very carefully .. lots of Members here think Su-35 , J-31 and TFX might make their way, but i would not completely phase out the Possibility of F35's here , Of course it will be depending on US-Pakistan Relationship and time will play crucial part here ...if Paf have something in mind to get 5th gen after 2025.. than i wont be surprised if they formally request F-35's from US , to keep the Balance of Power in S.A


----------



## royalharris

For china, everything is ok, even if you can get F35, we are happy with your safety. but just don't waste the time ,keep calm and clear,make the right decision.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## war&peace

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It depends on whether Beijing (in the absence of a PLAAF or PLAN order) is willing to invest in the FC-31 and not distribute the R&D overhead to buyers. Instead, play the long-game by exacting a small profit atop of the cost of materials and labour. The risk in this approach is that they may not profit off the program, especially if there's only 1 or 2 FC-31 customers.


My question is that then why did they start FC-31 in the first place? Can you throw some light on that? I mean if they don't have a customer then why the news said that within 3 yrs J-31 will enter production?


----------



## tarrar

Bad news coming from Turkey, because of failed coup attempt there is lack of finance for TFX project so the project has been shelved by the Government.


----------



## abrar khan

r said:


> Bad news coming from Turkey, because of failed coup attempt there is lack of finance for TFX project so the project has been shelved by the Government.


May be postponed for a year, turkey economy is strong and they will start it soon.


----------



## Zarvan

tarrar said:


> Bad news coming from Turkey, because of failed coup attempt there is lack of finance for TFX project so the project has been shelved by the Government.


This rumored was also spread in first week of the attempt and it was denied by Turkish Government. Pakistan Affairs at its best

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indian Jatt

A 5 gen fighter will generally cost turkey around 10-12 billion dollars, now the question is.
1.how much will Pakistan invest?
2.how many numbers will Pakistan order?
3.even USA is having trouble in developing their F35, how will Turkey deal with tech issues and yes both Pakistan and turkey lack expertise.
4.Pakistan in future needs at least 1 quality fighter like the J20, T-50 or F35, PAF requires at least 2 squadrons.
5.will TFX be able to take on T50 or F35 in future?
No trolling please.....these are valid points....i need valid answers, because future IAF is going to be really strong along with Su30 mki, rafale, AMCA and FGFA.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Sell J20 to PAF, call it an end.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## CHACHA"G"

*Hello All
I said it before and I will say it again !!!!!!! for all those who are worry about money or finances ,
Money is not the issue , problem or what ever ,, then main hurdle is and will be availability , because of so many dam reasons, now fog is lifting so you all are hearing so much like talks are going on for su-35 or Typhon or this or that.
where do I guess or understand PAF they will surly go for J31 and TFX (yes for both) if both are really afford and available .
Y , very simple because of India , IAF in 10 years will have (they planning)more then 200+ 4.5++gen and 5th Gen birds with 250+ su-30 with Su-35 kit . and also hundreds of other advance birds .
Jf 17 in its current air frame and some old f16 (although they are good but for now ) will not be able to do there job or I would say any thing against that fire power which IAF will have in 10 to 15 years (if things work in IAF favour ).
I am not sure if you all notice our PM for saying again and again , that we will not allow balance of power to go in India's favour but with out entering in arms race , so my guess , PAF very soon have new birds , like 4.5++ gen Typhon , and for 5th Gen J-31 and TFX both , and very good chance of M-2000s from Middle East , 
and su-35 will come for navy if they ever come (the suit more for navy).
Thank you all *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DavidSling

CHACHA"G" said:


> *Hello All
> I said it before and I will say it again !!!!!!! for all those who are worry about money or finances ,
> Money is not the issue , problem or what ever ,, then main hurdle is and will be availability , because of so many dam reasons, now fog is lifting so you all are hearing so much like talks are going on for su-35 or Typhon or this or that.
> where do I guess or understand PAF they will surly go for J31 and TFX (yes for both) if both are really afford and available .
> Y , very simple because of India , IAF in 10 years will have (they planning)more then 200+ 4.5++gen and 5th Gen birds with 250+ su-30 with Su-35 kit . and also hundreds of other advance birds .
> Jf 17 in its current air frame and some old f16 (although they are good but for now ) will not be able to do there job or I would say any thing against that fire power which IAF will have in 10 to 15 years (if things work in IAF favour ).
> I am not sure if you all notice our PM for saying again and again , that we will not allow balance of power to go in India's favour but with out entering in arms race , so my guess , PAF very soon have new birds , like 4.5++ gen Typhon , and for 5th Gen J-31 and TFX both , and very good chance of M-2000s from Middle East ,
> and su-35 will come for navy if they ever come (the suit more for navy).
> Thank you all *


With what money?


----------



## Zibago

I am reading in the news it got cancelled after failed coup


----------



## SBD-3

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's been delayed. Alan Warnes is saying that plans to have the TFX fly by 2023 - which was very unlikely to happen anyways - have been abandoned. They don't have a date for the maiden flight, but the program is still alive.


Delayed indefinately. Means even if it gets delayed til 5 years that pushes the first expected date of *first flight* (Means the start of the testing, add another 5-6 years for commercialization) to 2028. World will have mature JSFs be flying by 2022-2024. And Turks to be honest, are not at a point both economically or militarily where they can afford spending money on a 4++ platform on their own. China, US, Europe and Russia have large enough domestic fleets to absorb a significant number. Turkey will be stuck like Pakistan and have to look for export orders to keep the costs bearable. An example for such was Japanese F-2, a cost monster.


----------



## Shabi1

Im skeptical about the TFX, with planned induction of JSFs, doesnt seem to have a priority for Turkey. It always seemed like a backup project incase the JSF inductions dont happen but since that is going on JSF progress is going well, its better they concentrate on JSF.


----------



## Viper0011.

Tipu7 said:


> Jf17 basic airframe will remain same even if more black are developed in future. There is no such thing as stealth jf17.
> 
> And no, J31 will also become part of PAF in future. There is good possibility that initial blocks of both F16 & Jf17 will be replaced by TFX & J31 respectively......



From the little I know, JFT will have a stealthy single engine variant in the shape of block IV. Call that "stealth optimized" than total stealth if you will. The PAF wants the stealth tech and wants to master it internally, which makes perfect sense.

The PAF has realized the need for the heavies in comparison to India. More than likely, the TFX will be built in two versions, first, twin turbines and Pakistan will get those squadrons too to form her "Hi" and later, a higher thrust engine will be produced / procured for a single engine configuration for Pakistan (to replace the F-16's eventually). 

J-31 was recently rejected by the PAF. They might come back to it, but they thought between TFX and JFT block IV, it would make more sense. However, common sense tells you that the J-31 should've been purchased. And now, may be it would be, after the recent challenges with India that took place last week under the threat of "full surgical strikes".

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Shabi1 said:


> Im skeptical about the TFX, with planned induction of JSFs, doesnt seem to have a priority for Turkey. It always seemed like a backup project incase the JSF inductions dont happen but since that is going on JSF progress is going well, its better they concentrate on JSF.


I have no insiders info or anything like that. But I know the mindset of the Turkish folks. TFX is like a "eating grass" type project specially after the coup (read capitulation) attempt through proxies. I am pretty sure Pak folks can easily connect the dots...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## royalharris

wanglaokan said:


> Sell J20 to PAF, call it an end.


now,answer is no,maybe future,no one know timeline,just like f22


----------



## Ultima Thule

Starlord said:


> i haven't wish for anything .. i believe that PAF will be looking at block 3 Performance compared to F-16 block 52's ... after new EU suites , more hard points , and Engine upgrade ( if ) and IFR, HOBS etc
> the next Gen will be chosen very carefully .. lots of Members here think Su-35 , J-31 and TFX might make their way, but i would not completely phase out the Possibility of F35's here , Of course it will be depending on US-Pakistan Relationship and time will play crucial part here ...if Paf have something in mind to get 5th gen after 2025.. than i wont be surprised if they formally request F-35's from US , to keep the Balance of Power in S.A


JF-17 will be never equal to F-16 blk- 52 as for F-35 i have to say this you are pakistan is shifting toward Russia and China and you are talking about F-35



Viper0011. said:


> From the little I know, JFT will have a stealthy single engine variant in the shape of block IV. Call that "stealth optimized" than total stealth if you will. The PAF wants the stealth tech and wants to master it internally, which makes perfect sense.
> 
> The PAF has realized the need for the heavies in comparison to India. More than likely, the TFX will be built in two versions, first, twin turbines and Pakistan will get those squadrons too to form her "Hi" and later, a higher thrust engine will be produced / procured for a single engine configuration for Pakistan (to replace the F-16's eventually).
> 
> J-31 was recently rejected by the PAF. They might come back to it, but they thought between TFX and JFT block IV, it would make more sense. However, common sense tells you that the J-31 should've been purchased. And now, may be it would be, after the recent challenges with India that took place last week under the threat of "full surgical strikes".


don't live in your imaginations, their is no stealth optimized versions of JFT called blk4, and where do get this PAF rejected the J-31, in your wet dream


----------



## Mikaail

What level of participation is being offered by Turks?


----------



## SBD-3

Shabi1 said:


> Im skeptical about the TFX, with planned induction of JSFs, doesnt seem to have a priority for Turkey. It always seemed like a backup project incase the JSF inductions dont happen but since that is going on JSF progress is going well, its better they concentrate on JSF.


It's more like a matter of national pride than anything else. Even if I assume that TFX is real and it's supposedly a stealish fighter.TuAF should better first fly it's JSFs to see how a 5th Gen is different from 4th Gen and what capabilities do they need more over the JSF. So showing the coup as an excuse, I believe Turks would have decided to wait for JSF to have some sort of benchmark for TFX.



Viper0011. said:


> From the little I know, JFT will have a stealthy single engine variant in the shape of block IV. Call that "stealth optimized" than total stealth if you will. The PAF wants the stealth tech and wants to master it internally, which makes perfect sense.
> 
> The PAF has realized the need for the heavies in comparison to India. More than likely, the TFX will be built in two versions, first, twin turbines and Pakistan will get those squadrons too to form her "Hi" and later, a higher thrust engine will be produced / procured for a single engine configuration for Pakistan (to replace the F-16's eventually).
> 
> J-31 was recently rejected by the PAF. They might come back to it, but they thought between TFX and JFT block IV, it would make more sense. However, common sense tells you that the J-31 should've been purchased. And now, may be it would be, after the recent challenges with India that took place last week under the threat of "full surgical strikes".


Even with the J-31 I'm not much hopeful that it would be around anytime soon. In fact the countries procuring JSF would have a considerable advantage over the other countries for quite some time in future. J-20,J-31_PAK-FA etc etc are still work in progress and for how long, God knows.
PAF should go for the J-10B, pinning hopes on J-31and TFX isn't a very good idea.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## !eon

Viper0011. said:


> From the little I know, JFT will have a stealthy single engine variant in the shape of block IV. Call that "stealth optimized" than total stealth if you will. The PAF wants the stealth tech and wants to master it internally, which makes perfect sense.
> 
> The PAF has realized the need for the heavies in comparison to India. More than likely, the TFX will be built in two versions, first, twin turbines and Pakistan will get those squadrons too to form her "Hi" and later, a higher thrust engine will be produced / procured for a single engine configuration for Pakistan (to replace the F-16's eventually).
> 
> J-31 was recently rejected by the PAF. They might come back to it, but they thought between TFX and JFT block IV, it would make more sense. However, common sense tells you that the J-31 should've been purchased. And now, may be it would be, after the recent challenges with India that took place last week under the threat of "full surgical strikes".



What is that "stealth optimized" version. Can you kindly explain a bit more ?

TFX has only one version, already decided with twin engines @HAKIKAT 

I don't think PAF has made any decision about J-31. It's too early.


----------



## cabatli_53

- TF-X version is not decided yet but The High probability, It will be twin engine variant. 
- There is not any delay on project. A serious defense sources expressed such a thing but English ambassador denied it on twitter.
- F-35 is not an alternative for TF-X project so Turkey doesn't have an intention to select one over another. 
-TF-X is not a national pride project but a serious one which has ambitious strategic plans for power projection of Turkish Republic.
- Do not forget that BAE is a partner of TF-X transferring know-how to Turkish design team. A group of BAE engineers are in Turkey at present. 
- Pakistan is officially invited for TF-X cooperation.

Reactions: Like Like:
16


----------



## KediKesenFare3

Money isn't a real problem in our case.
*
Turkey runs $1.64B budget surplus in Jan-Aug*

Govt runs budget surplus in Jan-Aug 2016 of 4.9B Turkish liras ($1.64B), says Finance Minister Agbal

http://aa.com.tr/en/economy/turkey-runs-164b-budget-surplus-in-jan-aug/648349

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Dirtdiver

Diplomatically, what are the outcomes of Pakistan joining the program since they probably will go for local production if they have any serious interest on TF-X, wouldn't that make you wonder BAE's allowance of know-how technologies would be even more limited? That might also affect the performance and TURAF's future capabilities? Ignore my pragmatism please I am just trying to be rational here.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Atatürk said:


> Diplomatically, what are the outcomes of Pakistan joining the program since they probably will go for local production if they have any serious interest on TF-X, wouldn't that make you wonder BAE's allowance of know-how technologies would be even more limited? That might also affect the performance and TURAF's future capabilities? Ignore my pragmatism please I am just trying to be rational here.


Pakistan's participation would not be that comprehensive. I expect we would put in an amount for development (10-15%?) and then procure the TFX as-is off-the-shelf from Turkey, but with rights to configure the platform according to our requirements. The transfer-of-technology element would likely involve MRO (to support the jets at home) and some co-production stuff, e.g. some parts manufacturing (LRU?), partial assembly maybe? But no, we would not be aiming for another JF-17-scale program, not for several decades at least.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Mikaail

Overall the prospect looks good for Pakistan. In fact Pakistani expertise gained from participation in the JF-17 program, regardless of the level of involvement, might be of assistance to Turkey.

Financially how stable is Pakistan's economy to support such a project is the question? Needless to say participation will involve domestic production, partially or full fledged, for sure. Which require heavy investments. 

Don't really see a reason of delay from Turkey, financially & otherwise. Recent coup attempt might stall the TFX program momentarily, but nothing much. 

Political willingness to participate is sufficient on both sides as well. 

Fingers crossed.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## mikkix

Talk Talk.............................................................................

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

Mikaail said:


> Financially how stable is Pakistan's economy to support such a project is the question?



This thread may help you....

https://defence.pk/forums/pakistan-economy.18/


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mikaail said:


> Overall the prospect looks good for Pakistan. In fact Pakistani expertise gained from participation in the JF-17 program, regardless of the level of involvement, might be of assistance to Turkey.
> 
> Financially how stable is Pakistan's economy to support such a project is the question? Needless to say participation will involve domestic production, partially or full fledged, for sure. Which require heavy investments.
> 
> Don't really see a reason of delay from Turkey, financially & otherwise. Recent coup attempt might stall the TFX program momentarily, but nothing much.
> 
> Political willingness to participate is sufficient on both sides as well.
> 
> Fingers crossed.


Worse comes to worst, it'd just be an off-the-shelf buy from Pakistan (for TFX or any other jet, e.g. FC-31 or KFX).


----------



## YeBeWarned

cabatli_53 said:


> - TF-X version is not decided yet but The High probability, It will be twin engine variant.
> - There is not any delay on project. A serious defense sources expressed such a thing but English ambassador denied it on twitter.
> - F-35 is not an alternative for TF-X project so Turkey doesn't have an intention to select one over another.
> -TF-X is not a national pride project but a serious one which has ambitious strategic plans for power projection of Turkish Republic.
> - Do not forget that BAE is a partner of TF-X transferring know-how to Turkish design team. A group of BAE engineers are in Turkey at present.
> - Pakistan is officially invited for TF-X cooperation.



Can't Explain better than that .. and conclusive too Allah Bless you brother

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Worse comes to worst, it'd just be an off-the-shelf buy from Pakistan (for TFX or any other jet, e.g. FC-31 or KFX).


Even the FC-31?


----------



## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> we would not be aiming for another JF-17-scale program, not for several decades at least.



is it because we may see block 4's and 5's in JF ?


----------



## royalharris

Whatever,the best luck

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

T-123456 said:


> Even the FC-31?


In my opinion, yes. Pakistan will not be investing in a fighter development program to the tune it has done with the JF-17 for quite some time. Doesn't mean it won't need newer solutions, but I feel the next acquisition won't heavily stress indigenization as much as the JF-17. Rather, domestic MRO, access to the platform (to configure it with our choice of weapons, radar, avionics, etc), and some parts manufacturing (and maybe partial assembly) will be enough. It'd be similar to the network we have to back our Mirage III/5.


Starlord said:


> is it because we may see block 4's and 5's in JF ?


Possibly, yes.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In my opinion, yes. Pakistan will not be investing in a fighter development program to the tune it has done with the JF-17 for quite some time. Doesn't mean it won't need newer solutions, but I feel the next acquisition won't heavily stress indigenization as much as the JF-17. Rather, domestic MRO, access to the platform (to configure it with our choice of weapons, radar, avionics, etc), and some parts manufacturing (and maybe partial assembly) will be enough. It'd be similar to the network we have to back our Mirage III/5.


You would need at least 200(my guess),wouldnt it be better to have a production line like you have with the JF-17,think about the costs for that amount if bought off-the-shelf?


----------



## war&peace

royalharris said:


> Maybe first customer not Pakistan,friend


I think P


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In my opinion, yes. Pakistan will not be investing in a fighter development program to the tune it has done with the JF-17 for quite some time. Doesn't mean it won't need newer solutions, but I feel the next acquisition won't heavily stress indigenization as much as the JF-17. Rather, domestic MRO, access to the platform (to configure it with our choice of weapons, radar, avionics, etc), and some parts manufacturing (and maybe partial assembly) will be enough. It'd be similar to the network we have to back our Mirage III/5.


But according to ACM Sohail Amman, PAF is investing heavily in the aviation city with an aim to prepare facilities and brain required for the next gen platform and this indicates even a deeper involvement at the very beginning of the program.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## YeBeWarned

T-123456 said:


> You would need at least 200(my guess),wouldnt it be better to have a production line like you have with the JF-17,think about the costs for that amount if bought off-the-shelf?



the next and upcoming generation of planes does not require so high numbers for any country , unless you are some Dumb Arab Country which just buy everything by selling some Oil wells .. the more Sophisticated the technology is becoming the numbers are shrinking ... for example you wont see F-22 , Rafale and Euro Fighter in Hundreds for USA, France and UK as they did with F-16's , Mirages ..
i don't see any specific reason for Turkey to put this condition of PAF to buy a huge number in order to place the Assemly lines .. but if PAF decide to go for it i would go for numbers more than 50+ at least


----------



## T-123456

Starlord said:


> the next and upcoming generation of planes does not require so high numbers for any country , unless you are some Dumb Arab Country which just buy everything by selling some Oil wells .. the more Sophisticated the technology is becoming the numbers are shrinking ... for example you wont see F-22 , Rafale and Euro Fighter in Hundreds for USA, France and UK as they did with F-16's , Mirages ..
> i don't see any specific reason for Turkey to put this condition of PAF to buy a huge number in order to place the Assemly lines .. but if PAF decide to go for it i would go for numbers more than 50+ at least


Why would Turkiye put any condition on your participation,with or without you,the TFX project is a go?
You cannot compare your country to the US or the Europeans,in case of a war,you have an enemy with an airforce of at least double the size of yours with also plans to go 5th gen so,i dont think 50+ 5th gen will not be enough.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## YeBeWarned

T-123456 said:


> Why would Turkiye put any condition on your participation,with or without you,the TFX project is a go?
> You cannot compare your country to the US or the Europeans,in case of a war,you have an enemy with an airforce of at least double the size of yours with also plans to go 5th gen so,i dont think 50+ 5th gen will be enough.



what i mean to say that, I see no reason Turkey to put a Condition on PAF to buy high numbers like 100+ in order to shift some Tech and Assembly lines to PAC .. and yes are not US or Europe but PAF will not be fighting IAF over Indian Sky's its highly unlikely , the most PAF will have their mission to go in India for Surgical Strikes on specific targets which can also be done with a Stand-off Distance by Using long range Guided Bombs , CM .. for that part you wont be needing 5th Generations in hundreds until you have a Stable Economy , which i will see happening no less than 2025-2030

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## bedbin

Join us pakistani brothers. We need your help. and you need our 5th gen fighter to hunt indian jets

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## T-123456

Starlord said:


> I see no reason Turkey to put a Condition on PAF to buy high numbers like 100+ in order to shift some Tech and Assembly lines to PAC


There wont be such a condition but if needed,it will come from your side.



royalharris said:


> Don’t be angry, true friends will admire the other's selection,wish him the best


Why should i be angry,i think you confuse me with others?
Pakistan should do whats best for Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## YeBeWarned

T-123456 said:


> There wont be such a condition but if needed,it will come from your side.



Lets hope there wont be any Condition .. but as Quwa mentioned , we wont be seeing the scale of investment like JF in any other project for upcoming decades , maybe PAC/PAF is waiting to see the Performance of Future thunder blocks ..
i wonder if PAC can utilize their experience of JF on TFX ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## T-123456

Starlord said:


> i wonder if PAC can utilize their experience of JF on TFX ?


I dont think so,as you know BAE systems(and Airbus) is chosen to assist with the design In addition, the SSM(Undersecretariat of Defence Industries) had invited Alenia Aermacchi, Saab and China’s CATIC to submit interest as potential partners on the development activity.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## YeBeWarned

T-123456 said:


> I dont think so,as you know BAE systems(and Airbus) is chosen to assist with the design In addition, the SSM had invited Alenia Aermacchi, Saab and China’s CATIC to submit interest as potential partners on the development activity.



Thanks , one more question ... What if PAF asked for a Modified Version ? and if PAF did some changes in Air frame of JF in block-4 or internal bay system , will their experience help them ?


----------



## T-123456

Starlord said:


> What if PAF asked for a Modified Version


When a customer(country) buys such a system,it can ask(if possible or needed) for modifications.
An example is the Israeli F35I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_Israeli_procurement


Starlord said:


> and if PAF did some changes in Air frame of JF in block-4 or internal bay system , will their experience help them ?


I dont think so,Pakistan is like my country,still new at this.
BAE and the others have more experience.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## YeBeWarned

T-123456 said:


> When a customer(country) buys such a system,it can ask(if possible or needed) for modifications.
> An example is the Israeli F35I
> 
> I dont think so,Pakistan is like my country,still new at this.
> BAE and the others have more experience.



Thanks bro for staying with me after all those kind of silly questions .. just wanted to clear my mind on this subject

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## T-123456

Starlord said:


> Thanks bro for staying with me after all those kind of silly questions .. just wanted to clear my mind on this subject


There are no silly questions.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

war&peace said:


> I think P
> 
> But according to ACM Sohail Amman, PAF is investing heavily in the aviation city with an aim to prepare facilities and brain required for the next gen platform and this indicates even a deeper involvement at the very beginning of the program.


The two aren't mutually exclusive. For example, the PAF could be seeking to make a heavier investment in developing and producing radars, ECM/EW, seekers, etc - i.e. areas that are the most sensitive and difficult to procure.

This is what Israel does; it develops its own radar and ECM/EW tech, but then integrates its domestically developed solutions unto foreign platforms such as the F-16, F-15, and now F-35. Alternatively, ACM Sohail Aman also said "looking beyond 5th-generation", suggesting that the next big platform wouldn't be along the same lines as the FC-31 or TFX, but beyond that.



T-123456 said:


> You would need at least 200(my guess),wouldnt it be better to have a production line like you have with the JF-17,think about the costs for that amount if bought off-the-shelf?


One would need hundreds of fighters in order to distribute the R&D costs such that the cost is only the labour and materials. Why would Pakistan do it alone (again) when it can actually just order 2-3 squadrons and help another, like Turkey, distribute the R&D load? 

To put it another way. If Pakistan joins the TFX, it can help with reducing the cost of each TFX by adding more fighters to the launch order (e.g. divide the R&D cost of $10b across 250 Turkish and 50 Pakistani planes instead of just 200 Turkish planes).

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## royalharris

5th generation aircraft is a luxury toy, for J20, the single cost of J20, excluding profit、munition、 logisitic etc， is more than 120 million USD.
For 4th Generation aircraft, many fighers in the world. USA(F16\F15\F18),russia(mig 29 35\su 27 35), EU(typoon,rafael,gripen),china(j 10).
but for 5th Generation , now just USA(F22/F35),china(j20, initial production; FC31 prototype),russia(T50, prototype).
F22 is only for USA, did UK/germany/france prefer F22 or not, definitely.why not build 5th generation by themself? because it is not a easy job, just about dozens of billions USD

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## T-123456

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One would need hundreds of fighters in order to distribute the R&D costs such that the cost is only the labour and materials. Why would Pakistan do it alone (again) when it can actually just order 2-3 squadrons and help another, like Turkey, distribute the R&D load?


If only 2/3 squadrons,you would be right.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To put it another way. If Pakistan joins the TFX, it can help with reducing the cost of each TFX by adding more fighters to the launch order (e.g. divide the R&D cost of $10b across 250 Turkish and 50 Pakistani planes instead of just 200 Turkish planes).


Lets not forget the GCC countries,im sure they will also order some in the future.
Btw,the alerts dont work.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

The TFX program may actually be stagnant or zombie right now due to Erdogan's purge.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

T-123456 said:


> If only 2/3 squadrons,you would be right.
> 
> Lets not forget the GCC countries,im sure they will also order some in the future.


Exactly. One or two other big air forces joining the TFX or at least just committing to launch orders would help make the TFX a relatively affordable platform.



Oscar said:


> The TFX program may actually be stagnant or zombie right now due to Erdogan's purge.


Alan Warnes had alluded to this when he said the 2023 maiden flight had been pushed back indefinitely. However, no one from the industry has followed-up on this issue. Could be the case, but it isn't apparent at the moment, especially with the British Gov't itself confident that the BAE deal will be closed by the end of year.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## T-123456

royalharris said:


> 5th generation aircraft is a luxury toy


Not if you are in our position,it is essential for my country's future military strenght,in this case the airforce.
Im sure you know that we cant exactly trust our western allies that much for future projects.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Alan Warnes had alluded to this when he said the 2023 maiden flight had been pushed back indefinitely. However, no one from the industry has followed-up on this issue. Could be the case, but it isn't apparent at the moment, especially with the British Gov't itself confident that the BAE deal will be closed by the end of year.


The British ambassador to Turkiye refuted Alan Warnes claimes when answering directly to a Turkish member( @Nutuk ) on twitter.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Centurion2016

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Exactly. One or two other big air forces joining the TFX or at least just committing to launch orders would help make the TFX a relatively affordable platform.




There is no such thing as a realtively affordable advanced War plane ..

5th Generation fighters cost two or three times the cost to FLY PER HOUR.

The purchase cost of any FITH generation fighter has to be over $150 million per fighter with weapons and training combined minimum.

for 90% of the worlds air forces it is completely unreralistic to buy and operate a 5th gen platform.

AS FOR TFX I would be surprised if it got beyond the drawing board. I am 99% certain the Turks will operate and buy the F35 lightening. full stop.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Starlord said:


> is it because we may see block 4's and 5's in JF ?


no their is no blk4 or blk 5, not even on the drawing board just your wishful thinking


----------



## T-123456

Centurion2016 said:


> AS FOR TFX I would be surprised if it got beyond the drawing board. I am 99% certain the Turks will operate and buy the F35 lightening. full stop.


The F-35(100 + 16(LHD/LPD)) is the replacement for the retired F-4s of the Turkish Air Force.
The TFX is for airsuperiority.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Centurion2016 said:


> There is no such thing as a realtively affordable advanced War plane ..
> 
> 5th Generation fighters cost two or three times the cost to FLY PER HOUR.
> 
> The purchase cost of any FITH generation fighter has to be over $150 million per fighter with weapons and training combined minimum.
> 
> for 90% of the worlds air forces it is completely unreralistic to buy and operate a 5th gen platform.
> 
> AS FOR TFX I would be surprised if it got beyond the drawing board. I am 99% certain the Turks will operate and buy the F35 lightening. full stop.


Perhaps, but it also depends on how you define a "5th gen fighter." If we are referring to the F-35, then yes, another F-35 would not be a relatively affordable platform. But in light of the commercial and industry advances made in reducing the costs around AESA radars, HMD/S, etc, and Turkey's use of off-the-shelf subsystems (e.g. engine such as the EJ200) can result in a relatively affordable platform. $150m all-in wouldn't be bad either considering Brazil ordered Gripen NG for $130m all-in or that India ordered Rafale for $250m all-in.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Starlord said:


> Thanks , one more question ... What if PAF asked for a Modified Version ? and if PAF did some changes in Air frame of JF in block-4 or internal bay system , will their experience help them ?


their no stealth version of JFT, but in you wild imagination


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The two aren't mutually exclusive. For example, the PAF could be seeking to make a heavier investment in developing and producing radars, ECM/EW, seekers, etc - i.e. areas that are the most sensitive and difficult to procure.
> 
> This is what Israel does; it develops its own radar and ECM/EW tech, but then integrates its domestically developed solutions unto foreign platforms such as the F-16, F-15, and now F-35. Alternatively, ACM Sohail Aman also said "looking beyond 5th-generation", suggesting that the next big platform wouldn't be along the same lines as the FC-31 or TFX, but beyond that.


Sir, 
What little I understood from ACM Sohail Aman's interview and the questions on 14th Aug, is Pakistan Air Force intends to develop R&D locally utilizing the brains that are now heading West. It also gave me an impression that what PAC achieved over the years in various projects needs to be consolidated and knowledge imparted to the future generations. This knowledge might not be available to future Pakistani's because of stricter controls that Western countries might implement in the future. 

ECM/EW, seekers etc is indeed a field that Pakistan is looking for locally and over the years various options have surfaced. UAE was unable to export Pakistan the ECM/EW systems they produce in collaboration with western countries. The French refused initially but now are in talks with a very basic system hence Russian systems are being looked at. China may be willing to export some systems but they might not be ideally suited for Pakistan considering the Rafale deal. 

Beyond fifth gen. indicates to me that PAF is looking for independence in the field Artificial Intelligence indicating that in the near future Pakistan might be heading in the direction of producing a super computer. Again this would help the future generation in accessing complicated issues far more accurately. 

PAF might also be considering an other PAC type facility based in Sindh or Baluchistan. TAI is a strong contender for a joint venture in this regards as it does offer many solutions that Pakistan requires now and in the future. 

Over the years a lot has been said in regards to Future 5th Generation options of Pakistan, how and what might mature is yet some good 5-7 years away. 

IMO the issue that PAF faces today is if J-31 is selected and China does not induct these aircraft in her fleet Pakistan would be in a similar situation that is with JF-17's. If China some how allows Pakistan to procure J-20 then things might be different however PAF is not considering this at present. This leaves Pakistan with limited options i.e F-35 and TFX. 

F-35's cost approximately 190-220 million today in 5-7 years though more orders would be given still the price would not come down due to inflation and salary increases. PAF would not give a large order hence possibility of local production can not be possible. 

Now the only viable option that PAF has is the TFX, Turkey has to replace F-16's hence 200 initial and 100 optional is very much on the cards. The F-35's that Turkey has ordered will replace the F-4's so it is very clear that the TFX order might be increased. The requirement of PAF would be around 200 5th Generation aircraft provided PAF has 300-400 
4-4.5++ fighters, which is what has been said in the interview. The interview also indicates that UAV's and UCAV's would also be part of PAF increasing PAF overall aircraft strength to 600. This would be enough for keeping enemies at bay.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Centurion2016

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Perhaps, but it also depends on how you define a "5th gen fighter." If we are referring to the F-35, then yes, another F-35 would not be a relatively affordable platform. But in light of the commercial and industry advances made in reducing the costs around AESA radars, HMD/S, etc, and Turkey's use of off-the-shelf subsystems (e.g. engine such as the EJ200) can result in a relatively affordable platform. $150m all-in wouldn't be bad either considering Brazil ordered Gripen NG for $130m all-in or that India ordered Rafale for $250m all-in.




TFX is on drawing board only
it takes 15 years to develop a fighter
So TFX will be ready in 2030-2035

PAF needs a new platform in 3 years time


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> What little I understood from ACM Sohail Aman's interview and the questions on 14th Aug, is Pakistan Air Force intends to develop R&D locally utilizing the brains that are now heading West. It also gave me an impression that what PAC achieved over the years in various projects needs to be consolidated and knowledge imparted to the future generations. This knowledge might not be available to future Pakistani's because of stricter controls that Western countries might implement in the future.
> 
> ECM/EW, seekers etc is indeed a field that Pakistan is looking for locally and over the years various options have surfaced. UAE was unable to export Pakistan the ECM/EW systems they produce in collaboration with western countries. The French refused initially but now are in talks with a very basic system hence Russian systems are being looked at. China may be willing to export some systems but they might not be ideally suited for Pakistan considering the Rafale deal.
> 
> Beyond fifth gen. indicates to me that PAF is looking for independence in the field Artificial Intelligence indicating that in the near future Pakistan might be heading in the direction of producing a super computer. Again this would help the future generation in accessing complicated issues far more accurately.
> 
> PAF might also be considering an other PAC type facility based in Sindh or Baluchistan. TAI is a strong contender for a joint venture in this regards as it does offer many solutions that Pakistan requires now and in the future.
> 
> Over the years a lot has been said in regards to Future 5th Generation options of Pakistan, how and what might mature is yet some good 5-7 years away.
> 
> IMO the issue that PAF faces today is if J-31 is selected and China does not induct these aircraft in her fleet Pakistan would be in a similar situation that is with JF-17's. If China some how allows Pakistan to procure J-20 then things might be different however PAF is not considering this at present. This leaves Pakistan with limited options i.e F-35 and TFX.
> 
> F-35's cost approximately 190-220 million today in 5-7 years though more orders would be given still the price would not come down due to inflation and salary increases. PAF would not give a large order hence possibility of local production can not be possible.
> 
> Now the only viable option that PAF has is the TFX, Turkey has to replace F-16's hence 200 initial and 100 optional is very much on the cards. The F-35's that Turkey has ordered will replace the F-4's so it is very clear that the TFX order might be increased. The requirement of PAF would be around 200 5th Generation aircraft provided PAF has 300-400
> 4-4.5++ fighters, which is what has been said in the interview. The interview also indicates that UAV's and UCAV's would also be part of PAF increasing PAF overall aircraft strength to 600. This would be enough for keeping enemies at bay.


That's good insight.


Centurion2016 said:


> TFX is on drawing board only
> it takes 15 years to develop a fighter
> So TFX will be ready in 2030-2035
> 
> PAF needs a new platform in 3 years time


Agreed.


----------



## royalharris

T-123456 said:


> Not if you are in our position,it is essential for my country's future military strenght,in this case the airforce.
> Im sure you know that we cant exactly trust our western allies that much for future projects.
> 
> 
> The British ambassador to Turkiye refuted Alan Warnes claimes when answering directly to a Turkish member( @Nutuk ) on twitter.


Whatever ,keep up,friend


----------



## Centurion2016

REGARDING TFX and PAF aspirations to jump on to this project

Some sobering facts

Turkey is a relatively poor and technologically way behind the Like of Europe Chinna & Russia

The combined might of UK France Germany have not started a fifth generation project

it taked 15-20 years to design build and test a fighter

it will take over $25 billion in investement or even more to design a TFX

please tell me how when Pakistan will contribute to this new yet to start project


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Centurion2016 said:


> REGARDING TFX and PAF aspirations to jump on to this project
> 
> Some sobering facts
> 
> Turkey is a relatively poor and technologically way behind the Like of Europe Chinna & Russia
> 
> The combined might of UK France Germany have not started a fifth generation project
> 
> it taked 15-20 years to design build and test a fighter
> 
> it will take over $25 billion in investement or even more to design a TFX
> 
> please tell me how when Pakistan will contribute to this new yet to start project


If Pakistan is genuinely interested in the TFX and is willing to commitment some initial (e.g. $100m) funding, then I imagine the PAF would ask those tough questions to the Turkish Air Force and Turkish industry. If the answers are insufficient, then no investment in the TFX and the PAF will examine the alternatives.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Centurion2016

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If Pakistan is genuinely interested in the TFX and is willing to commitment some initial (e.g. $100m) funding, then I imagine the PAF would ask those tough questions to the Turkish Air Force and Turkish industry. If the answers are insufficient, then no investment in the TFX and the PAF will examine the alternatives.



THAT FIGURE OF $100 MILLION ........................are you serious .......???????????

you want to participate in a fifth generation project costing $25 billion or more ............YOU WANT CONRIBUTE $100 MILLION

and you THINK this will help a FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER ??????????????

(THIS IS BEYOND FANTASY)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

I 


Oscar said:


> The TFX program may actually be stagnant or zombie right now due to Erdogan's purge.


I beg to differ. TFX has now a much better chance due to proxies controlled from Pennsylvania are being aggressively purged. These proxies were there for the capitulation of Turkey. Divine help sorted them out...

Th


Centurion2016 said:


> THAT FIGURE OF $100 MILLION ........................are you serious .......???????????
> 
> you want to participate in a fifth generation project costing $25 billion or more ............YOU WANT CONRIBUTE $100 MILLION
> 
> and you THINK this will help a FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER ??????????????
> 
> (THIS IS BEYOND FANTASY)


This is due to Kardeshlik Kural (law of brotherhood)...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SQ8

HAKIKAT said:


> I
> 
> I beg to differ. TFX has now a much better chance due to proxies controlled from Pennsylvania are being aggressively purged. These proxies were there for the capitulation of Turkey. Divine help sorted them out...


Ill agree to disagree, politics of what happened are irrelevant; the purge of what was a good section of intelligentsia within the TuAF and in the private sector has had a major impact on all programs and even the effectiveness of the TuAF in its role.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Centurion2016 said:


> this will help


Every penny helps







What did grandma say? Pennies make pounds.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Centurion2016 said:


> THAT FIGURE OF $100 MILLION ........................are you serious .......???????????
> 
> you want to participate in a fifth generation project costing $25 billion or more ............YOU WANT CONRIBUTE $100 MILLION
> 
> and you THINK this will help a FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER ??????????????
> 
> (THIS IS BEYOND FANTASY)


Firstly, the $20-25bn figure thrown around regarding the TFX is the total value of the program including (1) research and development and (2) production of the actual fighter aircraft. The development on its own will only constitute a portion of that amount.

Secondly, I had clearly written "initial funding." If and when the TFX programs enters the developmental motion, it will be done in phases. If Pakistan is serious about contributing the program, its funding will be much higher than $100m (which wasn't even a hard number, just an example).

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Centurion2016 said:


> TFX is on drawing board only
> it takes 15 years to develop a fighter
> So TFX will be ready in 2030-2035
> 
> PAF needs a new platform in 3 years time


Agreed.

Which 5th-generation aircraft is available to Pakistan in the stipulated 3 years? 

Reality check of PAF would indicate only 4.5++ aircraft are available. F-16 blk 15 after MLU would be compatible to 4++ Generation (may not be available due to politics). 

IF PAF decides to procure 4.5++ fighters then it would be in small numbers till the time 5th gen aircraft would be available. 

As far as news regarding development of TFX is concerned is still very limited. Same can be said of what is being discussed between Turkey and Pakistan. Till some evidence is made public we can not even speculate. 



Centurion2016 said:


> REGARDING TFX and PAF aspirations to jump on to this project
> 
> Some sobering facts
> 
> Turkey is a relatively poor and technologically way behind the Like of Europe Chinna & Russia
> 
> The combined might of UK France Germany have not started a fifth generation project
> 
> it taked 15-20 years to design build and test a fighter
> 
> it will take over $25 billion in investement or even more to design a TFX
> 
> please tell me how when Pakistan will contribute to this new yet to start project


As you have stated it takes 15-20 years to develop a fighter aircraft. TFX investment is about USD25 Billion it comes down to USD150-125 million per year. Now if these 25-30 billion are to be shared on a 50-50% basis it still amounts to the same USD150-120 million per year cost. 

Considering Pakistan would buy 150 initially and 50 option it is do able. 



Centurion2016 said:


> THAT FIGURE OF $100 MILLION ........................are you serious .......???????????
> 
> you want to participate in a fifth generation project costing $25 billion or more ............YOU WANT CONRIBUTE $100 MILLION
> 
> and you THINK this will help a FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER ??????????????
> 
> (THIS IS BEYOND FANTASY)


Are you serious...
USD25 billion upfront for a project that runs for 15-20 years. 

It does not work like that. There is a project and its total cost which is subdivided into sub-projects and there costs. This gives flexibility of payments and fund management, it also guaranties the employees on this project that they have secure jobs for some considerable time.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## The Eagle

Centurion2016 said:


> AS FOR TFX I would be surprised if it got beyond the drawing board. I am 99% certain the Turks will operate and buy the F35 lightening. full stop.





Centurion2016 said:


> REGARDING TFX and PAF aspirations to jump on to this project
> 
> Some sobering facts
> 
> Turkey is a relatively poor and technologically way behind the Like of Europe Chinna & Russia
> 
> The_ combined might of UK France Germany_ have not started a fifth generation project
> 
> *it taked* 15-20 years to design build and test a fighter
> 
> it will take over $25 billion in investement or even more to design a TFX
> 
> please tell me how when Pakistan will contribute to this new yet to start project





Centurion2016 said:


> THAT FIGURE OF $100 MILLION ........................are you serious .......???????????
> 
> you want to participate in a fifth generation project costing $25 billion or more ............YOU WANT CONRIBUTE $100 MILLION
> 
> and you THINK this will help a FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER ??????????????
> 
> (THIS IS BEYOND FANTASY)



Interestingly, a false flag that too when it is Indian behind the same, is very easy to recognize. since the flags are lie, your statements are misleading too. 

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) & others, no need to feed him.


----------



## DavidSling

Claiming that Turkey can build a fifth generation platform is like claiming Israel can do the same.
Turkey has advanced weaponry, but no where near fifth generation platforms.
secondly, developing of such aircraft is costly, 25 billion USD would be the cheapest estimate you'll get, considering Turkey didn't designed a good modern aircraft, let alone stealthy.
Thirdly, if Turkey would be able to build such aircraft, how would pakistan support it? Pakistan industries are no where near advanced as Russia, China, US, EU or any other big military exporters and it posses no strong economy to support or purchase such aircrafts.
For summary, Pakistan's only option is buying China's jets, as I see no future for stealth fight jets purchase from the U.S, and still, it'll take alot of money, money that Pakistan would likely need to other branches of the military.

This is not a troll reply, I might not be a Pakistani, but I'm realistic

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Nefarious

To comments regarding lack of experience in building fighter jets on Turkish side, they are doing it in partnership with BAE Systems. It will work and it will work damn good too.

With regard to Pakistans involvement, Turkey already has the ability to fully fund this project on its own and also already has access to the best tech available. Inviting Pakistan looks more towards taking Pakistan with them on their journey to success. Like brothers do for each other.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## zebra7

royalharris said:


> 5th generation aircraft is a luxury toy, for J20, the single cost of J20, excluding profit、munition、 logisitic etc， is more than 120 million USD.
> For 4th Generation aircraft, many fighers in the world. USA(F16\F15\F18),russia(mig 29 35\su 27 35), EU(typoon,rafael,gripen),china(j 10).
> but for 5th Generation , now just USA(F22/F35),china(j20, initial production; FC31 prototype),russia(T50, prototype).
> F22 is only for USA, did UK/germany/france prefer F22 or not, definitely.why not build 5th generation by themself? because it is not a easy job, just about dozens of billions USD



And that 120 Million is the cost for the PLAAF.


----------



## bsruzm

DavidSling said:


> Claiming that Turkey can build a fifth generation platform is like claiming Israel can do the same.
> Turkey has advanced weaponry, but no where near fifth generation platforms.


----------



## royalharris

zebra7 said:


> And that 120 Million is the cost for the PLAAF.


Production cost,For plaaf cost will be some more

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## zebra7

royalharris said:


> Production cost,For plaaf cost will be more




MY question is simple, what would be the Fly Away cost for the PLAAF, when it will enter service per aircraft. Your intelligent Guess would also do the job.


----------



## royalharris

PLAAF should have data,but it is confidential. Form 2011， the 1st prototype fly the test, till now,totaly 10 in PLAAF colur, the other two in yellow fresh, totally 12 aircraft, dozens of thousands of hours fly test
data like cost can be get from commercial compamy and made public, but difficult to get information from PLA.
China like keep things low, make ourselves look like the underdog.Before the 1st j20 flying into the sky,even our Chinese know nothing about it.Just wow,all of a sudden,surprise!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## maximuswarrior

Killuminati420 said:


> To comments regarding lack of experience in building fighter jets on Turkish side, they are doing it in partnership with BAE Systems. It will work and it will work damn good too.
> 
> With regard to Pakistans involvement, Turkey already has the ability to fully fund this project on its own and also already has access to the best tech available. Inviting Pakistan looks more towards taking Pakistan with them on their journey to success. Like brothers do for each other.



Exactly. Turkey is participating in the F-35 project and will learn a lot which will be applied to its domestic projects. I think that Pakistan should definitely join the project. We have also setup JF-17 production assemblies and have learnt a thing or two from our brother China. We should contribute any way we can. This is a win win. Of course PAF is also going to get their hands on a Chinese 5th gen fighter.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

DavidSling said:


> Claiming that Turkey can build a fifth generation platform is like claiming Israel can do the same.
> Turkey has advanced weaponry, but no where near fifth generation platforms.
> secondly, developing of such aircraft is costly, 25 billion USD would be the cheapest estimate you'll get, considering Turkey didn't designed a good modern aircraft, let alone stealthy.
> Thirdly, if Turkey would be able to build such aircraft, how would pakistan support it? Pakistan industries are no where near advanced as Russia, China, US, EU or any other big military exporters and it posses no strong economy to support or purchase such aircrafts.
> For summary, Pakistan's only option is buying China's jets, as I see no future for stealth fight jets purchase from the U.S, and still, it'll take alot of money, money that Pakistan would likely need to other branches of the military.
> 
> This is not a troll reply, I might not be a Pakistani, but I'm realistic


I think we should avoid speaking in broad strokes. No one here is suggesting that Turkey had planned or is planning to develop this fighter platform alone. Rather, it is contracting the design and development expertise of BAE and is seeking an off-the-shelf engine to power the jet (potentially EJ200). This isn't an easy task, but are we really going to go around suggesting that Turkey - with its proven experience in managing complex programs (e.g. MILGEM), its ability to fund those programs, its industry's eagerness - and growing portfolio - in subsystems development, etc, is not going to be able to bring the TFX to fruition? Sure, there will is a margin of failure, but let us not ignore the margin of success as well.

If we are going to examine the TFX or any program, then let us actually examine it for what it is in terms of how Turkey is planning to go about it, its resources, its partners, etc. 

As for Pakistan and the question of how it can support it. First, no one here is suggesting that Pakistan is in any way an integral prospect to the TFX. Far from it. However, Turkey could very well appreciate the added funding support, and if not that, then additional orders to help distribute the R&D load. Not every JSF partner was a paragon of aviation R&D, but that doesn't mean there weren't any useful JSF partners.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## T-123456

DavidSling said:


> Claiming that Turkey can build a fifth generation platform is like claiming Israel can do the same.


If Israel wanted,it could(Kfir).


DavidSling said:


> Turkey has advanced weaponry, but no where near fifth generation platforms.
> secondly, developing of such aircraft is costly, 25 billion USD would be the cheapest estimate you'll get, considering Turkey didn't designed a good modern aircraft, let alone stealthy.


Turkiye is not inventing the wheel.
BAE/SAAB/TAI for design,Eurojet/Rolls-Royce/Aselsan for the engines,Aselsan,Havelsan for radar/sensors/avionics etc.
Financing $2,5 billion a year for 10 years shouldnt be a problem for a country like Turkiye.


DavidSling said:


> Thirdly, if Turkey would be able to build such aircraft, how would pakistan support it?


Turkiye joined the F-35 program,Pakistan can join the TFX program,what would be the problem?

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## maximuswarrior

T-123456 said:


> If Israel wanted,it could(Kfir).
> 
> Turkiye is not inventing the wheel.
> BAE/SAAB/TAI for design,Eurojet/Rolls-Royce/Aselsan for the engines,Aselsan,Havelsan for radar/sensors/avionics etc.
> Financing $2,5 billion a year for 10 years shouldnt be a problem for a country like Turkiye.
> 
> Turkiye joined the F-35 program,Pakistan can join the TFX program,what would be the problem?



Spot on. Turkey has the know how and resources at its disposal to get the job done. I'm not doubting that for a second.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## DavidSling

T-123456 said:


> If Israel wanted,it could(Kfir).
> 
> Turkiye is not inventing the wheel.
> BAE/SAAB/TAI for design,Eurojet/Rolls-Royce/Aselsan for the engines,Aselsan,Havelsan for radar/sensors/avionics etc.
> Financing $2,5 billion a year for 10 years shouldnt be a problem for a country like Turkiye.
> 
> Turkiye joined the F-35 program,Pakistan can join the TFX program,what would be the problem?


Problem is Turkey isn't the U.S and Pakistan isn't best technological partner.
I'd think of inviting some better contributing countries to the program, like, I don't know, Japan, South Korea?


----------



## T-123456

DavidSling said:


> Problem is Turkey isn't the U.S and Pakistan isn't best technological partner.
> I'd think of inviting some better contributing countries to the program, like, I don't know, Japan, South Korea?


You dont get it do you?
When the US invited Turkiye to the F-35 program,did that mean that Turkiye had the technology to contribute in any hichtech way to the program?
Allies invite each other to join future military programs,it will reduce costs,further cooperation between allies,send a message,help each other out etc,its a natural thing.
Btw,both Japan and Korea have their own programs,Turkiye wanted to join the Korean program but the Koreans didnt want to share the tech so Turkiye didnt join.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

DavidSling said:


> Problem is Turkey isn't the U.S and Pakistan isn't best technological partner.
> I'd think of inviting some better contributing countries to the program, like, I don't know, Japan, South Korea?


Why would you assume that Pakistan would be a technology partner and not a scale or funding contributor (like many JSF partners)? Also, Turkey is enlisting the services of BAE for design and development expertise.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DavidSling

T-123456 said:


> You dont get it do you?
> When the US invited Turkiye to the F-35 program,did that mean that Turkiye had the technology to contribute in any hichtech way to the program?
> Allies invite each other to join future military programs,it will reduce costs,further cooperation between allies,send a message,help each other out etc,its a natural thing.
> Btw,both Japan and Korea have their own programs,Turkiye wanted to join the Korean program but the Koreans didnt want to share the tech so Turkiye didnt join.


Allies help each other, but usually when u invite countries to JV, both countries should contribute to the program, either in the funding or in technology.
The plan is that the F-35 will be produced under license in Turkey by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). TAI is one of the two international suppliers to Northrop Grumman (the other being Terma in Denmark).[178] A Letter of Intent (LOI) was signed between TAI and Northrop Grumman ISS (NGISS) International on 6 February 2007. With the LOI, TAI became the second source for the F-35 center fuselage. The number of center fuselages to be produced by TAI will depend on the number of F-35s Turkey procures and the number of F-35s produced worldwide. On 10 December 2007, TAI was authorized by Northrop Grumman to commence fabricating access doors and composite parts for the first two F-35 production aircraft. These components are used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman, a principal member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.[179]

Now, Pakistan doesn't posses the economy or the technology advancement that Turkey would need in development of such advance tech.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Why would you assume that Pakistan would be a technology partner and not a scale or funding contributor (like many JSF partners)? Also, Turkey is enlisting the services of BAE for design and development expertise.


Pakistan is in no place to fund such expensive program


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

DavidSling said:


> Allies help each other, but usually when u invite countries to JV, both countries should contribute to the program, either in the funding or in technology.
> The plan is that the F-35 will be produced under license in Turkey by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). TAI is one of the two international suppliers to Northrop Grumman (the other being Terma in Denmark).[178] A Letter of Intent (LOI) was signed between TAI and Northrop Grumman ISS (NGISS) International on 6 February 2007. With the LOI, TAI became the second source for the F-35 center fuselage. The number of center fuselages to be produced by TAI will depend on the number of F-35s Turkey procures and the number of F-35s produced worldwide. On 10 December 2007, TAI was authorized by Northrop Grumman to commence fabricating access doors and composite parts for the first two F-35 production aircraft. These components are used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman, a principal member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.[179]
> 
> Now, Pakistan doesn't posses the economy or the technology advancement that Turkey would need in development of such advance tech.
> 
> 
> Pakistan is in no place to fund such expensive program


It has already been stated on numerous occasions that Turkey is enlisting the support of BAE (irrespective of Pakistan) for lead technical support. Are you suggesting that Turkey, with its proven experience in managing complex programs, reasonably sound funding ability, and BAE will not be able to bring this program to fruition?

Secondly, why would you assume that Pakistan would be an indispensable supporter? Not every JSF funding partner was integral to the success of the program. I think 10% in terms of development funding and actual unit acquisition for even Pakistan is plausible.


----------



## DavidSling

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It has already been stated on numerous occasions that Turkey is enlisting the support of BAE (irrespective of Pakistan). Secondly, why would you assume that Pakistan would be an indispensable supporter? Not every JSF funding partner was integral to the success of the program. I think 10% in terms of development funding and actual unit acquisition for even Pakistan is plausible.


Again, U.S can allow it, and still F35 had it difficulties, Turkey isn't U.S.
Anyway, I said my opinion, u said urs, I wish u luck and I hope I'm wrong

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

DavidSling said:


> Again, U.S can allow it, and still F35 had it difficulties, Turkey isn't U.S.
> Anyway, I said my opinion, u said urs, I wish u luck and I hope I'm wrong


Yes but at the end of the day, we have an example of non technically essential partners contributing to a program. In fact, in Asia, we have another with the South Korean KFX whereby Indonesia's PTDI will invest 20% in that program. There is nothing in PTDI's portfolio (which is good from a licensed manufacturing PoV) that KAI doesn't already have, but it was made a partner all the same (in return for funding support).

Let me be clear. I am not saying that Pakistan's participation would be essential. I am not saying that Pakistan will get much out any such partnership either (in terms of critical technology). Pakistan will get what it pays for in the end, but the facts as they are, its participation is a plausible idea. Whether that ends up in Pakistan producing a LED light for the TFX or a wing, who knows.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Darth Vader

@DavidSling @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

As You Guys Keep repeating How Turkey will be able to pull this off and Reason Behind Pakistan in the project

Bae Is the which will help . Turkey is not inventing Worlds First Plane , years of experience from F16 yes it is 4th generation plane but they have years of hands on experience from repairing to upgrading Than Comes F35 
Major part is engine which is coming from third seller
Smaller systems are already in the market or Turkey and Pakistan are already making it or getting it from 3rd sellers EU , China 

Now about Pakistan , Pakistan isn't just there for the funds yes every penny helps but you are talking about future as when China did with thunder 
Now same is Turkey trying to do what will Pakistan bring in the game
1st access of Chinese systems which are for 5th gen birds , access to future Chinese systems
E.g chendgu close relation with Pac and there next 5th generation bird and Pakistan can pave the way so they can be involved in this or future JV
2nd Pakistans Knowledge of Building a 4th generation capable air craft if You take out Uncle Sam , and Eu how many friends in the world Turkey have which are making 4th generation air crafts on which can really trust 
3 Future even if this project doest work it will give Turkey and Pakistans indusrties huge boost and access to different modern systems which will help in future JVs and can start working on other JVs e.g projects for navy and army

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

royalharris said:


> For china, everything is ok, even if you can get F35, we are happy with your safety. but just don't waste the time ,keep calm and clear,make the right decision.


Thanks...All the best in your developments of fighter jets....


----------



## DavidSling

Izetbegovic said:


> There seems to be many people here that underestimate the abilities of Pakistan. They are a nuclear armed nation and didn't do that 'buying off the shelf.' How many nations can say the same and on top of that, how many could have achieved it with Pakistan's budget and isolated position. Israel on the other hand have had all the assistance they needed from several nation and their budget is not subject to any limits. This is just one example.
> 
> Do not believe for a minute that we are intellectually inferior to any nation. And technologically speaking, one way or another, we get our hands on what is required.


Your do not know the story of Israel nuclear weapons . Israel built it's nuclear program in the 50's , when it had poor economy and weak country. It's way for acquiring the nukes is remarkable.
I don't underestimate Pakistan,but claiming that ur industry and your economy can help in building fifth gen fighter is no sense


----------



## Nefarious

maximuswarrior said:


> Exactly. Turkey is participating in the F-35 project and will learn a lot which will be applied to its domestic projects. I think that Pakistan should definitely join the project. We have also setup JF-17 production assemblies and have learnt a thing or two from our brother China. We should contribute any way we can. This is a win win. Of course PAF is also going to get their hands on a Chinese 5th gen fighter.




A European standard 5th gen fighter in Pakistani hands will cause excess sweating in a few countries who like to maintain a tech advantage be it in South Asia or even the Middle East...after reading some of the comments above.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## wiseone2

T-123456 said:


> You dont get it do you?
> When the US invited Turkiye to the F-35 program,did that mean that Turkiye had the technology to contribute in any hichtech way to the program?
> Allies invite each other to join future military programs,it will reduce costs,further cooperation between allies,send a message,help each other out etc,its a natural thing.
> Btw,both Japan and Korea have their own programs,Turkiye wanted to join the Korean program but the Koreans didnt want to share the tech so Turkiye didnt join.



USA has not shared F-35 secrets even with the tier partners in the F-35 program



Killuminati420 said:


> A European standard 5th gen fighter in Pakistani hands will cause excess sweating in a few countries who like to maintain a tech advantage be it in South Asia or even the Middle East...after reading some of the comments above.



try buying a 4th generation fighter with your own funds


----------



## Nefarious

wiseone2 said:


> USA has not shared F-35 secrets even with the tier partners in the F-35 program
> 
> 
> 
> try buying a 4th generation fighter with your own funds



WE fly TYPHOONS. YOU should TRY to TROLL somewhere ELSE.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## wiseone2

Killuminati420 said:


> WE fly TYPHOONS. YOU should TRY to TROLL somewhere ELSE.


i was talking about some country in South Asia


----------



## Fenrir

wiseone2 said:


> USA has not shared F-35 secrets even with the tier partners in the F-35 program



What secrets would these be? Radar frequencies and range? Performance? Avionics and electronic support measures? All know metrics.

Would these secrets be the formula for the baked-in RAM coating of the F-35's skin? Norway manufactures it. How to manufacture the F-35's various parts of machining tools and techniques? It's a collaborative effort on the part of over a dozen nations.

What exactly are these secrets that the US isn't sharing?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## wiseone2

Maddy Lynn said:


> What secrets would these be? Radar frequencies and range? Performance? Avionics and electronic support measures? All know metrics.
> 
> Would these secrets be the formula for the baked-in RAM coating of the F-35's skin? Norway manufactures it. How to manufacture the F-35's various parts of machining tools and techniques? It's a collaborative effort on the part of over a dozen nations.
> 
> What exactly are these secrets that the US isn't sharing?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement#Participation_and_orders

Read the following paragraph
"Turkey, like other partner nations, has complained about the United States refusal to share the software source code for the F-35.[182][183] On 24 March 2011 Turkey announced it is placing its order for 100 jets on hold due to the ongoing source code refusal issue. Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said that the negotiations for access to the F-35 source codes, including codes that can be used to control the aircraft remotely, had not yielded "satisfactory results" and that under these conditions Turkey could not accept the aircraft.[184]

In April 2012, Turkey suggested that program costs could be reduced by outsourcing more production to Turkish defense and aerospace companies, which operate with lower labour costs compared to their counterparts in the U.S. and other partner countries of the project.[185]"


----------



## Fenrir

wiseone2 said:


> Read the following paragraph
> "Turkey, like other partner nations, has complained about the United States refusal to share the software source code for the F-35.[182][183] On 24 March 2011 Turkey announced it is placing its order for 100 jets on hold due to the ongoing source code refusal issue. Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said that the negotiations for access to the F-35 source codes, including codes that can be used to control the aircraft remotely, had not yielded "satisfactory results" and that under these conditions Turkey could not accept the aircraft.[184]



That disallows nations from maintaining the aircraft on their own, but doesn't compromise the performance of the aircraft - continuing with the article you posted:

_The UK specifically indicated they might cancel its entire order of F-35s without access to the coding, without which the nation will be unable to maintain its own aircraft. Allen Sens, a defense analyst at the University of British Columbia stated in November 2009: "What has happened is really quite unusual because we're talking about some of America's very close allies. You would have thought they could build in some maintenance codes that could be accessible to their allies." Sens indicated that the decision could be as a result of concerns about software security and also pressure from Congress to protect jobs in the US.
_
The US has shared technical secrets, performance and usage best practices, machining tools and techniques, but for commercial reasons is withholding the source codes for some systems which the US services. Remember, the F-35 is a joint collaboration that sees multiple maintenance hubs build in partner nations around the world. To allow them to make use of this system, source codes must be given for the parts that those nations are servicing.

This is a rather limited case that's more commercial in natures and about US protectionism when you start to look deeper into the case.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## wiseone2

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It has already been stated on numerous occasions that Turkey is enlisting the support of BAE (irrespective of Pakistan) for lead technical support. Are you suggesting that Turkey, with its proven experience in managing complex programs, reasonably sound funding ability, and BAE will not be able to bring this program to fruition?
> 
> Secondly, why would you assume that Pakistan would be an indispensable supporter? Not every JSF funding partner was integral to the success of the program. I think 10% in terms of development funding and actual unit acquisition for even Pakistan is plausible.



BAE would require approvals from Pentagon to allow Pakistan access to the project
it ain't going to happen



Maddy Lynn said:


> That disallows nations from maintaining the aircraft on their own, but doesn't compromise the performance of the aircraft - continuing with the article you posted:
> 
> _The UK specifically indicated they might cancel its entire order of F-35s without access to the coding, without which the nation will be unable to maintain its own aircraft. Allen Sens, a defense analyst at the University of British Columbia stated in November 2009: "What has happened is really quite unusual because we're talking about some of America's very close allies. You would have thought they could build in some maintenance codes that could be accessible to their allies." Sens indicated that the decision could be as a result of concerns about software security and also pressure from Congress to protect jobs in the US.
> _
> The US has shared technical secrets, performance and usage best practices, machining tools and techniques, but for commercial reasons is withholding the source codes for some systems which the US services. Remember, the F-35 is a joint collaboration that sees multiple maintenance hubs build in partner nations around the world. To allow them to make use of this system, source codes must be given for the parts that those nations are servicing.
> 
> This is a rather limited case that's more commercial in natures and about US protectionism when you start to look deeper into the case.



building a 5th generation fighter is not a walk in the park
some of the restrictions are motivated by commercial reasons
some aren't


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

wiseone2 said:


> BAE would require approvals from Pentagon to allow Pakistan access to the project
> it ain't going to happen


That is understandable if IP from the F-35 was being transferred or if BAE Systems' subsidiary in the U.S. is to be involved in the program. It does not appear that either is a factor with the TFX at this time, unless you have evidence to demonstrate otherwise.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## maximuswarrior

Izetbegovic said:


> Korea's experience in building fighter jets?
> Japan's experience in building fighter jets?
> Just because many "advanced nations" have not started their own 5 gen program, doesn't mean that they dont have the ability to do it.
> The problem in the west is bureaucracy which has a worse effect on such programs as corruption does in developing nations.



They also said these things when Pakistan was building the nukes. We all know how that ended.

Pakistan should join the Turkish 5th gen project and even involve China if possible. Get some sort of consortium going. It will be a win for all parties involved.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Darth Vader

Maddy Lynn said:


> What secrets would these be? Radar frequencies and range? Performance? Avionics and electronic support measures? All know metrics.
> 
> Would these secrets be the formula for the baked-in RAM coating of the F-35's skin? Norway manufactures it. How to manufacture the F-35's various parts of machining tools and techniques? It's a collaborative effort on the part of over a dozen nations.
> 
> What exactly are these secrets that the US isn't sharing?


Glem alt det
If They have Indian Flag and Topic is Something Good For Pakistan No , Majority of Indian Members Will Come Up with Such Claims even the Aliens Will Go nuts

They Seem to Forget That F35 Was a joint Project and The Secrets hes Talking about is the Alien Tech Used in F35 which is so advance punny Humans like us Wont be able to understand it or The we might End up creating Yoga Powered Space Ship

Coming Back to the Point Some one needs to enlighten him that when Such projects are started the Partners discuss the capabilities and system which will be used in the product and how the end user will be able to use them and What are the limits , List Goes and on and But Who are we trying to educate .... No Point in wasting Time on BS

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## maximuswarrior

wiseone2 said:


> i was talking about some country in South Asia



Too afraid to call the country by its name? Why so secretive?


----------



## maximuswarrior

Killuminati420 said:


> A European standard 5th gen fighter in Pakistani hands will cause excess sweating in a few countries who like to maintain a tech advantage be it in South Asia or even the Middle East...after reading some of the comments above.



You know how desperate things are when people from certain countries start discouraging you from joining a certain project. This discouragement should serve as a motivation to go one step further. The discouragement serves as a reminder and gauge that the idea of joining the Turkish 5th gen project is very sound and fruitful.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## wiseone2

maximuswarrior said:


> You know how desperate things are when people from certain countries start discouraging you from joining a certain project. This discouragement should serve as a motivation to go one step further. The discouragement serves as a reminder and gauge that the idea of joining the Turkish 5th gen project is very sound.



i have no comment on turkish 5th generation project. when countries like Russia and China are sweating out to build one it is not easy for turkey to build one


----------



## royalharris

maximuswarrior said:


> You know how desperate things are when people from certain countries start discouraging you from joining a certain project. This discouragement should serve as a motivation to go one step further. The discouragement serves as a reminder and gauge that the idea of joining the Turkish 5th gen project is very sound.


It is parkistan's selection, right or wrong, gain or loss,it is parkistan's bussiness.others can have a opinion, but no need discourage it.
Except USA(F22/F35),China(J20 initial production;FC 31 2.0 prototype),russia(T50, prototype), the others, basiclly speaking, all the same, every country have the potential. but remenber potential is not reality.
Don’t overestimate yourself, Don't underestimate yourself.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Darth Vader said:


> @DavidSling @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> As You Guys Keep repeating How Turkey will be able to pull this off and Reason Behind Pakistan in the project
> 
> Bae Is the which will help . Turkey is not inventing Worlds First Plane , years of experience from F16 yes it is 4th generation plane but they have years of hands on experience from repairing to upgrading Than Comes F35
> Major part is engine which is coming from third seller
> Smaller systems are already in the market or Turkey and Pakistan are already making it or getting it from 3rd sellers EU , China
> 
> Now about Pakistan , Pakistan isn't just there for the funds yes every penny helps but you are talking about future as when China did with thunder
> Now same is Turkey trying to do what will Pakistan bring in the game
> 1st access of Chinese systems which are for 5th gen birds , access to future Chinese systems
> E.g chendgu close relation with Pac and there next 5th generation bird and Pakistan can pave the way so they can be involved in this or future JV
> 2nd Pakistans Knowledge of Building a 4th generation capable air craft if You take out Uncle Sam , and Eu how many friends in the world Turkey have which are making 4th generation air crafts on which can really trust
> 3 Future even if this project doest work it will give Turkey and Pakistans indusrties huge boost and access to different modern systems which will help in future JVs and can start working on other JVs e.g projects for navy and army



Bottom line- whatever defence products Turkey produces ultimately get into Pak hands. JVs are to take it the next level- there's nothing more rational than that..

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Darth Vader

HAKIKAT said:


> Bottom line- whatever defence products Turkey produces ultimately get into Pak hands. JVs are to take it the next level- there's nothing more rational than that..


JVs are the Future 
Weapon Systems are Getting To Expensive for single country to Build , sell , mainten , and keep it alive till other buyers spend money on the project , and Secrecy Of Cold War is Long gone 
JV brings Money , Experience , Different Brains and , Spread the cost , bring cost effective and different Tech Available to the creater. 
This Helps the Projects to survive when single country would end up trashing the project and losing millions

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

HAKIKAT said:


> Bottom line- whatever defence products Turkey produces ultimately get into Pak hands. JVs are to take it the next level- there's nothing more rational than that..


The main issue is transfer of technology. This is limited because of laws of copyright and intellectual property, however there are ways to by pass these and that is what every country in the world is doing. These international and domestic laws have loopholes which are exploited by who ever is interested in procuring the technology. Then there are legal ways to do it but these require certain permissions.. 

USA, France and UK are known to give concessions regarding transfer of technology when the price is right or they would allow it to be sent though other countries like in the past Canadian F86's were procured by Iran for Pakistan Air Force. Israel sold parts for F-16's during sanctions and recently NATO surplus items were sold to Pakistan through Turkey for the F-16's.

Then there always remains a threat of espionage or in todays terms hacking. Israeli's were and are great in the field of industrial espionage remember the blueprints of Mirages.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## bsruzm

DavidSling said:


> and stop with this no sense.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## T-123456

HAKIKAT said:


> Bottom line- whatever defence products Turkey produces ultimately get into Pak hands.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

bsruzm said:


>



...U got him...



HAKIKAT said:


> Bottom line- whatever defence products Turkey produces ultimately get into Pak hands. JVs are to take it the next level- there's nothing more rational than that..


Not to mention Barkaat of doing something good when together....

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## bsruzm

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> ...U got him...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## cabatli_53

-SSM signed main contactor agreement with TAI to lead the project in paralel to benefits of Turkish Rrpublic.

-Aselsan, Roketsan, Tübitak Sage, Bilkent, Meteksan like technological hub institutes are charged to develop many strategic subsystems, components, devices in paralel to development of TFX.

-TAI purchased a super computer for desing activities of fighter.

-In critical design phase, Turkish and British design team will benefit the test opportunities of BAE installations locating in Britain.

-BAE accepted almost all requests of Turkish officials and guaranteed to deliver all srnsitive technologies Turkey requests without any limitation on usage and exportation. English ambassador told it.

-Turkey foreseens a 5-7 years to develop TF-X engine domestically.

-Two air to air missile project (iir short range, rf long range) under the name of Goktuğ is commenced in 2012-13.

-A fighter mission computer called Ozgur is developed and integrated to an f-16 flghter for trials.

-Aselsan is preparing to reveal two AESA radar. One for f-16 in 2018/19, other is 2021-22 for Tf-X. The GaN radar T/R modules are from ABmicronano which is the jv of Aselsan and Bilkent. I expect to see prototype mock-ups in IDEF/2017 defence fair.

-Aselsan passed into serial production of own developed E/O pod system called Aselpod. Strateglc thermal detectors are also from Aselsan. It is even exported to brother state Pakistan for jf-17 Thunders. It is planned to reveal an EW pod called EHpod and a SAR pod in next years. According to official statements, TF-X will not have seperate pods on paylons but onboard sensors inslde of fuselage.


-Turkish institutes are working on fully glass cockpit solutions to be worked with Ozgur misson computers codes.

-A stAnd off cruise missile which is going to fit inner pylons of TF-X is under development phase thanks to experiences gained in SOM cruise missle program. The name of new missile is SOM-j.

-Selecting a fighter is like selecting an ally for the future of a country. Turkey selected own ally called TFX and inviting brother Pakistan to join to own alliance for the independance of own skies.


I think those early efforts reveal reasons enough to make some of you think How Turkey is serious to develop and produce own fighters. When i read the comments of some hostile members which is actually targetting the hand to hand advancement plans of Muslim populations with underestimating the capabilities and ambitious of Turkish and Pakistani nations, i realised that we are on our correct way to achieve our strategic goals to destroy the power balances some westerners pushes the limits to obey their politic and evonomic rules, while feeding their satellite states with technology and cashes to create a perfect instability but As you see Such strategic projects will loose the sleeps of some countries step by step when reality of drawings became more visible in near future.

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## vizier

It will take investment,time and there is the risk of delays. Even already completed planes like f35 and SukhoiT50 face delays of years during testing and fixing stage. It is good to have a backup option and have budgets allocated to it such as Chinese J 31 which already has a prototype just like Turkey has F35 option by not putting all eggs in one basket.


----------



## royalharris

Your future is this one, although need wait

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## maximuswarrior

royalharris said:


> It is parkistan's selection, right or wrong, gain or loss,it is parkistan's bussiness.others can have a opinion, but no need discourage it.
> Except USA(F22/F35),China(J20 initial production;FC 31 2.0 prototype),russia(T50, prototype), the others, basiclly speaking, all the same, every country have the potential. but remenber potential is not reality.
> Don’t overestimate yourself, Don't underestimate yourself.



Well said bro. Appreciate your views.



royalharris said:


> View attachment 339385
> View attachment 339386
> Your future is this one, although need wait



An absolute killer.


----------



## wiseone2

HAKIKAT said:


> Bottom line- whatever defence products Turkey produces ultimately get into Pak hands. JVs are to take it the next level- there's nothing more rational than that..



it is not simple. EU has an arms embargo on China. Anything you give to Pakistan has to accompanied by iron clad promises of not fall in China's hands

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ultima Thule

royalharris said:


> View attachment 339385
> View attachment 339386
> Your future is this one, although need wait


not for export bro may be J-31


----------



## royalharris

pakistanipower said:


> not for export bro may be J-31


Just not for now, not forever. like isareal, they will get F22,just need wait. ultimately F35+F22.
First, go to J31,then J20，high+low， from same source can save you a lot of things even you can't imagine.
For PLAAF, they will need at least 500 hundred 5th G fighter, according to chinese industry ability today, it will take some time.
But seems like you are interest with TFX, No problem.


----------



## DavidSling

royalharris said:


> Just not for now, not forever. like isareal, they will get F22,just need wait. ultimately F35+F22.
> First, go to J31,then J20，high+low， from same source can save you a lot of things even you can't imagine.


Eh, For now Israel is going for F15 SE+ F35I A/B


----------



## royalharris

wiseone2 said:


> it is not simple. EU has an arms embargo on China. Anything you give to Pakistan has to accompanied by iron clad promises of not fall in China's hands


EU?
For china， every day、every month、every year， the situation is difference
10 years before, strongly need; 5 years before, ok,please;today, what you can offer?
For EU, there are sth china are interested, but not so urgent and advance, china lagged behind so much that can not achieved


----------



## wiseone2

royalharris said:


> EU?
> For china， every day、every month、every year， the situation is difference
> 10 years before, strongly need; 5 years before, ok,please;today, what you can offer?



EU countries have better military technology now. the advantage will last in the short to intermediate term.


----------



## Ultima Thule

royalharris said:


> Just not for now, not forever. like isareal, they will get F22,just need wait. ultimately F35+F22.
> First, go to J31,then J20，high+low， from same source can save you a lot of things even you can't imagine.
> For PlAAF, they will need 500 hundred 5th G fighter, according to chinese industry power today, it will take some time.
> But seems like you are interest with TFX, No problem.


bro don't fool yourself Pakistan wanted multi-role jet not single mission jet like J-20, not before 2030, 2035


----------



## royalharris

pakistanipower said:


> bro don't fool yourself Pakistan wanted multi-role jet not single mission jet like J-20, not before 2030, 2035


whatsoever! your country, your seletion, you take care. others just self opinion.
Some people rational, some people emotional, sometimes goodhearts and help will just make some people skeptical.



wiseone2 said:


> EU countries have better military technology now. the advantage will last in the short to intermediate term.


military related, some area, yes, overall, no

For big 3, the most focused on part, not Conventional military forces, but self R&D Trinity nuclear strike capability, especially the unbalanced the strike ability.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cabatli_53

Rolls Royce is in Turkey ! 
Offer:
- Establishment an engine R&D center in Turkey
- Total production of TF-X jet engines in Turkey.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## araz

cabatli_53 said:


> Rolls Royce is in Turkey !
> Offer:
> - Establishment an engine R&D center in Turkey
> - Total production of TF-X jet engines in Turkey.


Cabatli.
If it goes ahead how long will it take before Turkey can manufacture the engines locally.
A

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## cabatli_53

araz said:


> Cabatli.
> If it goes ahead how long will it take before Turkey can manufacture the engines locally.
> A



According to reports, it is predicted to take around 5-7 years for development and tests bro.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Bubblegum Crisis

araz said:


> Cabatli.
> If it goes ahead how long will it take before Turkey can manufacture the engines locally.
> A






*See all old links :*

*https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-indigenous-jet-fighter-program-tx-fx.256669/page-62#post-8310696

https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-indigenous-jet-fighter-program-tx-fx.256669/page-62#post-8310881

https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-powerpack-projects.300889/page-26#post-8717539

https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-powerpack-projects.300889/page-26#post-8776906


*
...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## war&peace

cabatli_53 said:


> Rolls Royce is in Turkey !
> Offer:
> - Establishment an engine R&D center in Turkey
> - Total production of TF-X jet engines in Turkey.


That's really interesting and encouraging development. I would recommend that PAF must join this program since China and Russia both are lagging behind west in modern A/C engines with ability of super-cruise and stealth. TFX can be developed into 5.5 or 5+ gen A/C with the latest system and techs that will become available within 2-3 yrs. What do you say @MastanKhan ..Rolls Royce not only providing engine but developing the facility with R&D in Turkey... I think that put Turkey among the forefront of aviation industry.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bubblegum Crisis

war&peace said:


> That's really interesting and encouraging development. I would recommend that PAF must join this program since China and Russia both are lagging behind west in modern A/C engines with ability of super-cruise and stealth. *TFX* _can be developed _*into 5.5 or 5+ gen A/C with the latest system and techs *that will become available within 2-3 yrs. What do you say @MastanKhan ..Rolls Royce not only providing engine but developing the facility with R&D in Turkey... *I think that put Turkey among the forefront of aviation industry.*




...will be developed. 

Patience ! 


*See all old links :*

*https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-to-participate-in-turkey’s-tfx-next-gen-fighter-aircraft-program.445657/page-23#post-8783864

https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-indigenous-jet-fighter-program-tx-fx.256669/page-64#post-8541084

https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-indigenous-jet-fighter-program-tx-fx.256669/page-64#post-8545049

https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-indigenous-jet-fighter-program-tx-fx.256669/page-65#post-8547969

https://defence.pk/threads/jsf-f35-fuselage-delivery-ceremony-in-tai.290716/#post-5028678


*
...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ali_raza

great initiative by turkish brothers

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

war&peace said:


> That's really interesting and encouraging development. I would recommend that PAF must join this program since China and Russia both are lagging behind west in modern A/C engines with ability of super-cruise and stealth. TFX can be developed into 5.5 or 5+ gen A/C with the latest system and techs that will become available within 2-3 yrs. What do you say @MastanKhan ..Rolls Royce not only providing engine but developing the facility with R&D in Turkey... I think that put Turkey among the forefront of aviation industry.



Amin..



cabatli_53 said:


> Rolls Royce is in Turkey !
> Offer:
> - Establishment an engine R&D center in Turkey
> - Total production of TF-X jet engines in Turkey.



The body language says that the Rolls-Royce side is desperate for a deal..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## war&peace

HAKIKAT said:


> Amin..
> 
> 
> 
> The body language says that the Rolls-Royce side is desperate for a deal..


I would say desperate or not it is great opportunity for Turkey to benefit from it otherwise waiting too much and you may miss train altogether.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

war&peace said:


> I would say desperate or not it is great opportunity for Turkey to benefit from it otherwise waiting too much and you may miss train altogether.


IMHO, _Reis_ is in no mood to miss his commitment to the Turkish folks regarding this _National Fighter_. He's more like in the "milking the bull" mode and has found the perfect PM, _Binali the Builder_, to be the executioner and finisher...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## YoungTurk01

Full text of Aviation week: 


Sierra Nevada Corp./TAI Team To Offer Freedom Trainer For T-X 

Dec 16, 2016 James Drew | Aviation Week & Space Technology 


Sierra Nevada Corp. (SNC) and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) are betting that the U.S. Air Force is seeking a fuel-efficient advanced pilot trainer to succeed the outdated Northrop T-38 Talon, like the one the companies plan to offer. 

With the spotlight shining on the major primes until now, the two businesses have quietly set up shop in Centennial, Colorado, as Freedom Aircraft Ventures LLC, to develop a lightweight, all-composite trainer powered by two business jet-class engines. 

The company tells Aviation Week in exclusive interviews that it intends to enter the jam-packed race for the T-X, offering an “economical” trainer alternative to those being pitched by rivals Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon. The clean-sheet aircraft has been designed by an integrated team of engineers from SNC and TAI, who have been working for some time at the joint venture’s headquarters near Denver. 


Dream Chaser 

»SNC/TAI pitch lightweight, FJ44-4M-powered Freedom Trainer 

»Single prototype being built in Colorado for flight evaluations 

»American-made advanced pilot trainer aimed at domestic and international air forces, but based on U.S. T-X requirements 

»Freedom Aircraft Ventures LLC registered in Centennial, Colorado 



Better known for its satellites and Dream Chaser spaceplane, the Sparks, Nevada-based company’s Turkish-American owners Fatih and Eren Ozmen, CEO and owner/president, respectively, want to play in the big leagues and see military aircraft manufacturing as a key driver of growth. 

They singled out the military trainer market after sensing demand for more than 1,200 aircraft globally, driven partly by the introduction of the Lockheed F-35 Lightning II, with the largest potential order being the U.S. government’s requirement for 350 or more T-X aircraft. 


The company’s twin-tail, moderately swept-wing trainer with a tricycle landing gear and step-tandem cockpit is powered by the Williams International FJ44-4M, a 3,600-lb.-thrust-class engine chosen by the Aero Vodochody L-39NG and Leonardo/Alenia Aermacchi M-345 High-Efficiency Trainer. Williams certified the engine in 2010 for the light business jet market, providing a cruise speed of up to 450 kt. over a 2,000-nm range with 5,000 flight hours between overhauls. It was chosen as the Freedom Trainer offering due to its relatively inexpensive procurement and sustainment costs as well as fuel efficiency, with the company saying it can buy two Williams engines for half the cost of one high-power military turbofan. 

The company already has one flying prototype in development, and it intends to answer the long-awaited T-X request for proposals (RFP) once released by the Air Force. The timing of the RFP will not be affected by the stopgap funding measure passed by Congress, since it is not a new-start program. The air force says a RFP notification could come any day, otherwise it will push into January due to holidays. 







SNC/TAI’s proposal is for a purely a fly-by-wire trainer, seeming to leave little design margin for secondary light-attack or aggressor roles. Instead, the aircraft digitally replicates radar intercepts, precision-guided munition drops and the use of targeting pods. The aircraft is no larger than the GE J85-5-powered T-38 and consumes 30% less fuel, allowing weight reductions across the board to boost high subsonic performance at lower thrust levels. “We’re focusing on open architecture and lowest total ownership cost,” one company executive explains. The Freedom Trainer also is designed to fully comply with the Air Force’s Open Mission System standards to prevent “vendor-lock,” even though that requirement was dropped. “We did not want to drive costly design/redesign into systems that may otherwise meet the objective requirement,” an Air Force Life Cycle Management Center official says. SNC believes buying into any proprietary systems will drive up costs later. 

The company says the Freedom Trainer will likely cost less to buy and sustain than its higher-powered competitors and consume 40-50% less fuel, while still meeting all threshold and objective performance requirements, including 6.5-7.5g sustained and high angle-of-attack maneuverability. 

“In this day of tight budgets and looming operations and sustainment bow waves, it only makes sense for the Air Force to spend less up-front so they can save more over the life cycle, which is why this training system makes so much sense,” Fatih Ozmen says. 

SNC is the prime contractor, with financial and intellectual input from TAI, it notes. “We’re not just a pretty face,” the company says. “We didn’t start off with a design from Turkey or anyplace else.” The single prototype under construction in Colorado, and the overall program, can be accelerated as needed to meet the Air Force’s schedule requirements for T-X. It has not been decided where in the U.S. serial production would occur, and there is potential for coproduction overseas for foreign buyers, the company says. It has some experience in this arena, having teamed with Brazil’s Embraer to set up an A-29 Super Tucano factory in Jacksonville, Florida, which is now delivering aircraft for the Afghan and Lebanese air forces. 

T-X is the single largest opportunity for SNC, but it will complete the trainer even if it loses, with opportunities in Australia, Turkey and many other nations that are inducting modern warplanes. “We’ve cast a wide net,” a company official says. 

Freedom Trainer was purposefully designed from the outset to meet Air Force training and airworthiness standards, which are well regarded by other air arms. The aircraft incorporates “live, virtual and constructive” training elements, provisions for aerial refueling, data links and communication radios woven into a high-performance aircraft with a fifth-generation cockpit, sensor suite and avionics. The overall training system requires “very little invention,” the company notes. 


SNC is renowned for keeping a low profile, having also silently competed unsuccessfully in the Air Force’s first round of contracts for the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System, or J-Stars, replacement program. 

The company has again kept quiet while finalizing its teaming arrangements and developing the T-X proposal. It has been engaging directly with the government, steering clear of industry days. 

“We don’t want to surprise people in the Defense Department and Air Force, but we do want to surprise the industry,” says one company official. “It’s not just about T-X per se; we’re looking at an international advanced trainer.” 

The Air Force confirmed engagement with SNC, saying it keeps an “open dialogue” with all companies that express interest in the T-X competition. The service says it welcomes any proposals that meet its requirements. 

SNC is lining up against sizable primes: the first, second, fourth and sixth largest defense OEMs in the world by 2015 revenue. Lockheed Martin and Korea Aerospace Industries are offering to build the Golden Eagle-based T-50A in Greenville, South Carolina. Raytheon and Leonardo would set up a T-100 final assembly and checkout facility plant in Meridian, Mississippi. Boeing and Saab unveiled their clean-sheet trainer in St. Louis in September, without having picked a final assembly location. The Northrop Grumman/Scaled Composites/BAE Systems/L-3 team has not shown its hand, except through leaked photos on social media. Its T-X prototype is flying routinely at the Mojave Air and Space Port in California. 


SNC’s annual revenue has grown to $2 billion since being bought by the Ozmens in 1994. The majority of its revenue comes from space systems and special forces programs. TAI has significant aerospace aircraft manufacturing clout in Turkey, having license-built more than 300 F-16s and now center fuselages for the F-35 as a second source. The company is producing the Hurkus Free Bird turboprop basic trainer as well as helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles and a next-generation fighter for the Turkish government. 

The Ozmens’ ethnic tie is with Turkey, and they are helping that nation develop a regional jet based on the Dornier 328, with TAI as a major subcontractor. It seems a natural fit, but the SNC/TAI partnership for T-X is not without headwinds due to the political and security situation in the NATO-allied nation. The unsuccessful military coup against President Recep Erdogan in July resulted in a governmentwide purge, and war continues to rage across the borders in Syria and Iraq. 

SNC says the joint venture with TAI is solid, postcoup. TAI immediately sent an envoy to the U.S. to reaffirm its commitment to Freedom Trainer. “The talent from TAI has been phenomenal,” SNC points out. “They brought their A-Team. We’ve cast a wide net,” a company official says. 

SNC says it aims to be a disruptive innovator, and its Freedom Trainer “family of systems” is the embodiment of that ethos, from the aircraft to the ground-based training system, simulators and courseware, and logistics chain. “The aircraft is just another training device,” the company notes. “We want the students to go off to their weapon systems with as high a quality training experience as possible, but focusing on doing it at the lowest possible cost per graduate. 

“We think a lot of our solutions are groundbreaking innovations,” the company continues. “We took an engine that can meet [our requirements] and built an airplane around it.” 

The U.S. government plans to retain 546 T-38A/B/Cs. While some play aggressor roles in flying exercises or support weapons testing, 431 Talons support undergraduate training for pilot selected to fly fighters or bombers. The Air Education and Training Command expects to phase out its T-38 between 2023-29 as the T-X comes online, targeting initial operational capability by fiscal 2024. 

The source-selection process will take about one year, with a development contract expected in early fiscal 2018. Low-rate production should start in fiscal 2022. 
---------------------------- 
US T-X contenders: 

- Boeing / Saab (BTX1 - N38ITX) 
- Northrop Grumman / Scaled Composites / BAE systems / L-3 (N400nt) 
- Lockheed Martin / Korea Aerospace Industries (T-50A) 
- Raytheon / Leonardo / Honeywell / CAE USA (T-100) 
- Sierra Nevada corp. / Turkish Aerospace Industries (Freedom Trainer)

http://aviationweek.com/defense/sierra-nevada-corptai-team-offer-freedom-trainer-t-x

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## cabatli_53

New meeting with BAE !





British PM coming to Turkey in this Saturday.

TAI-BAE collaboration for TF-X is in final shape !

-4 years for design(First contract) - First period until 2020 
-4 years for detail efforts/prototype production with thousands of TF-X workers/engineers in TAI/Aselsan/Havelsan/Roketsan/BAE (Second period from 2020 to 2024)
-RR offers joint production/ToT/joint exportation of engines to third parties without any restriction. 
-Engine maintenance/after-sale service in Turkey
-A huge aerospace industrialization milestone with thousands of TF-X engineer/technicians for Turkish industry offers great opportunity for ally states such as Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE.
-2023 Planned First flight ! 

http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/bae-systems-aiming-for-multi-billion-dollar-tai-up.html

From latest MSI magazine: "Ongoing cooperation talks for TF-X between Pakistan&Turkey, We are informing Pakistani officials about processes."

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Blue Marlin

cabatli_53 said:


> New meeting with BAE !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> British PM coming to Turkey in this Saturday.
> 
> TAI-BAE collaboration for TF-X is in final shape !
> 
> -4 years for design(First contract) - First period until 2020
> -4 years for detail efforts/prototype production with thousands of TF-X workers/engineers in TAI/Aselsan/Havelsan/Roketsan/BAE (Second period from 2020 to 2024)
> -RR offers joint production/ToT/joint exportation of engines to third parties without any restriction.
> -Engine maintenance/after-sale service in Turkey
> -A huge aerospace industrialization milestone with thousands of TF-X engineer/technicians for Turkish industry offers great opportunity for ally states such as Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE.
> -2023 Planned First flight !
> 
> http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/bae-systems-aiming-for-multi-billion-dollar-tai-up.html
> 
> From latest MSI magazine: "Ongoing cooperation talks for TF-X between Pakistan&Turkey, We are informing Pakistani officials about processes."


mrs may is in the usa today, id imagine she'd be there for more than one day.
you sure she's going to turkey on saturday?


----------



## cabatli_53

Blue Marlin said:


> mrs may is in the usa today, id imagine she'd be there for more than one day.
> you sure she's going to turkey on saturday?




Yep..

http://www.mynet.com/haber/dunya/ingiltere-basbakani-theresa-may-turkiyeye-geliyor-2851723-1


----------



## Blue Marlin

cabatli_53 said:


> Yep..
> 
> http://www.mynet.com/haber/dunya/ingiltere-basbakani-theresa-may-turkiyeye-geliyor-2851723-1


what level (%) of the tfx is british via bae systems or rolls royce?


----------



## HannibalBarca

Blue Marlin said:


> what level (%) of the tfx is british via bae systems or rolls royce?


not a lot since Tot and such. at least Engine and part of airframe, if there is a deal...


----------



## cabatli_53

Blue Marlin said:


> what level (%) of the tfx is british via bae systems or rolls royce?




Noone have any details about likely deal. Actually, Likely TF-X deal is delayed cause of coup attempt. According to reports, Britain is planning to use own variant of TF-X for own Air Force.


----------



## Blue Marlin

cabatli_53 said:


> Noone have any details about likely deal. Actually, Likely TF-X deal is delayed cause of coup attempt. According to reports, Britain is planning to use own variant of TF-X for own Air Force.


really? thats news? we have the f35? and are working on a 6h gen fighter i dont see the potential for the tfx in the raf..
what does this have over the f35?


----------



## HannibalBarca

Blue Marlin said:


> really? thats news? we have the f35? and are working on a 6h gen fighter i dont see the potential for the tfx in the raf..
> what does this have over the f35?


it will work alongside the F-35, TF-x will not be a build for stealth, but more a modern support role.


----------



## cabatli_53

Blue Marlin said:


> really? thats news? we have the f35? and are working on a 6h gen fighter i dont see the potential for the tfx in the raf..
> what does this have over the f35?




TF-X will be an air superiority fighter so She will be a supplementary of F-35, not a rival. The potential use of RAF is being spoken by Britain officials attending in meetings and interviews.


----------



## Blue Marlin

cabatli_53 said:


> TF-X will be an air superiority fighter so She will be a supplementary of F-35, not a rival. The potential use of RAF is being spoken by Britain officials attending in meetings and interviews.


ok so will the tfx be significantly larger than the f35?

will it have a large 4 rail belly weapons bay with 2 side bays (like the f22). or just the single belly bay?

whats its estimated cost+R&D?

what upgrades will the ej-200 enignes have over the current series. e.g. variable flow, tvc, ceramic composite hpt's etc.........


----------



## cabatli_53

Blue Marlin said:


> ok so will the tfx be significantly larger than the f35?
> 
> will it have a large 4 rail belly weapons bay with 2 side bays (like the f22). or just the single belly bay?
> 
> whats its estimated cost+R&D?
> 
> what upgrades will the ej-200 enignes have over the current series. e.g. variable flow, tvc, ceramic composite hpt's etc.........




 I am not TF-X project manager. We will see the details in following process...


----------



## HannibalBarca

Blue Marlin said:


> ok so will the tfx be significantly larger than the f35?
> 
> will it have a large 4 rail belly weapons bay with 2 side bays (like the f22). or just the single belly bay?
> 
> whats its estimated cost+R&D?
> 
> what upgrades will the ej-200 enignes have over the current series. e.g. variable flow, tvc, ceramic composite hpt's etc.........


no one knows...


----------



## Cookie Monster

HAKIKAT said:


> IMHO, _Reis_ is in no mood to miss his commitment to the Turkish folks regarding this _National Fighter_. He's more like in the "*milking the bull*" mode and has found the perfect PM, _Binali the Builder_, to be the executioner and finisher...


do u mean "milking the cow"? 
"Milking the bull", I'm just getting weird pictures in my head

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Blue Marlin

cabatli_53 said:


> I am not TF-X project manager. We will see the details in following process...


you being in a turk who just so happens to be very keen on turkish defence i would have imagined you'd would have known. oh well.


----------



## royalharris

If Everything gos fluently,4 years for design;4 years for prototype,then 10 years for initial production
At best,in 2034,tfx can come to production
A fighter nobody know the final real performance

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Zarvan




----------



## somebozo

The Turkish message is clear...sell the MFI Super Mushak..and invest the profits in R/D with the Turks..if Pakistan agrees to join TFX, it would indirectly mean a lot of sale for MFI Super Mushak.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Awan68

Northern said:


> 2025 and 2020 is the expected date of all operational 5th Gen's the ones in development stages,Till by 2030 with a huge rival market to the United states F-22 and technological progression of avionics nothing in the F-22 will be a secret anymore,So F-22 will be open to Pakistan.
> With a peaceful,safe,strong and vibrant economy like of the 1960s and 1980s why you don't think they'll give us F-22's?
> Times change.
> The India of 1960s going through Famines today is the worlds largest democracy and a GDP of 83USD compared to Pakistans 81USD and Pakistans GDP Percentage growth was 6.8 percent all through out the 1960s this was a time when South korea had a GDP growth rate of 5 percent all through 1960s and a few two good decades ahead.
> Remember the remarks of Nixon against Indhira Gandhi when he called her a B**** Lol and yeah we all know that.
> So yeah I do believe they'll give us F-22's.The overall political outlook of the world has changed Yes.
> But the Americans are Good people they will be willing to give it to us if we work seriously with them.
> PS#No Goddamn Indo Quote me and start a war,This is the truth.


----------



## Awan68

HannibalBarca said:


> smoking is bad...


He's smoking some real martian shit...


----------



## HannibalBarca

Awan68 said:


> He's smoking some real martian shit...


I'm suprised he's still alive after that tripping...


----------



## KediKesenFare3

somebozo said:


> The Turkish message is clear...sell the MFI Super Mushak..and invest the profits in R/D with the Turks..if Pakistan agrees to join TFX, it would indirectly mean a lot of sale for MFI Super Mushak.



Actually, the Turkish message is that the Pakistani nation is the only nation with an Islamic order which we trust, respect and believe is capable of assisting and improving our products due to their advance in different areas of defense technologies. Mutual respect regardless of our varying ideological constitutions is the key issue here.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Awan68

HannibalBarca said:


> I'm suprised he's still alive after that tripping...


Naah intellectuals like him live a long happy life, no brain cells burned a key to healthy living..


----------



## HannibalBarca

KediKesenFare said:


> Actually, the Turkish message is that the Pakistani nation is the only nation with an Islamic order which we trust, respect and believe is capable of assisting and improving our products due to their advance in different areas of defense technologies. Mutual respect regardless of our varying ideological constitutions is the key issue here.



" We trust each others" was enough i think...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Awan68

pakistanipower said:


> bro don't fool yourself Pakistan wanted multi-role jet not single mission jet like J-20, not before 2030, 2035


 You again


----------



## .

Awan68 said:


>


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Cookie Monster said:


> do u mean "milking the cow"?
> "Milking the bull", I'm just getting weird pictures in my head


It's meant to be "bull" implying achieving staffs declared "impossible" by the "experts"....
_Rahmetli_ Nejmettin Erbakan, the father of Muslim _Siyaset_ in Turkey, used to say that...



somebozo said:


> The Turkish message is clear...sell the MFI Super Mushak..and invest the profits in R/D with the Turks..if Pakistan agrees to join TFX, it would indirectly mean a lot of sale for MFI Super Mushak.


 As for the "financial part", the bills were settled long ago by the forefathers of the Muslims in the sub-continent. The largest retail/commercial bank in Turkey - Is(h) Bankasi - was established with a part of those donations...

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Ultima Thule

Awan68 said:


> You again


Whats wrong about my above post that's you quoted?


----------



## cabatli_53

Deal is signed between BAE and TAI !







Borning of a beast called TF-X

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## CriticalThought

cabatli_53 said:


> Deal is signed between BAE and TAI !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Borning of a beast called TF-X



Many congrats brother. Best of luck in the TFX program. We are with you every step of the way.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Star Expedition

Wise decision. Maybe they want to benefit from Pak's experience.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## -------

One of the important things they said was that GB and TR are going to design the aircraft completely free from European Union influence - which may be an indicator to engine selection..

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Bubblegum Crisis

Blue Marlin said:


> ok so will the tfx be significantly larger than the f35?
> 
> *will it have a large 4 rail belly weapons bay with 2 side bays (like the f22). or just the single belly bay?*
> 
> ...




@Blue Marlin @cabatli_53

It will be a little bigger than the F-35 (Even if the F-35 is thicker to integrate the engine of the STOVL variant). So there will be more space available. There is no need to be a genius to deduce that _to maintain his maximum stealth_ _as a air superiority fighter _he will have to embark all his weapons in internal bays. So yes it will have a large bay of ventral weapon and also side bays like the F-22.














...


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

sharingan said:


> I hope this never happens, Turkey is evil



 2 

It will happen...In Sha Allah....Turkiye will come out as more strong country than before...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## CriticalThought

sharingan said:


> Why should I change it? Did Iran commit genocide against the greeks, assyrians, armenians and kurds? No but Turkey did. Does Iran trade with Israel? No but Turkey does, does Iran have US bases on its soil? No but Turkey does. Did Iran invade Iraq and Syria? No they are there on mission invited by the elected government officials, but Turkey are there illegally.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36431160

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HannibalBarca

sharingan said:


> Why should I change it? Did Iran commit genocide against the greeks, assyrians, armenians and kurds? No but Turkey did. Does Iran trade with Israel? No but Turkey does, does Iran have US bases on its soil? No but Turkey does. Did Iran invade Iraq and Syria? No they are there on mission invited by the elected government officials, but Turkey are there illegally.


I'm tired to put those articles and docs back again and again btw Iran-israel weapons sells or those killing of kurds and so on and so on. if someone could, i will be grateful, if not , well Mister I will let you on the spot...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

sharingan said:


> In Sha Allah not. Why would you want Turkey to be strong? They wish for muslim dominance and think they are a superior race and therefore should rule all muslims. While at the same time have their tongues stuck in the asses of the US and Israelis. Just look at how they invaded Iraq and Syria. They support the slaughter of our Palestinian brothers and sisters, have committed genocides against the greeks, against the Armenians, the Assyrians and the Kurds. They are pure evil and should stay the hell away from Pakistan



You are just hateful Iranian jealous of Turkish achievements...Just few weeks ago...You concluded a deal with American company (Evil/Satan) Boeing for passenger jets...So, when Iran signs deal, it is an achievement, but when Turks gets something, they are evil and puppet of west? 

You are just doing propaganda and you resort to this same propaganda whenever Turks/Pakistanis sign deal with West because you are unable to do so...It gives you a chance to manipulate common fools by saying ; Oh look, Iran is standing to evil while rest of countries are puppet of Israel, US...You don't do same propaganda when you're signing deal with US yourself...

You are troll...No one can separate Pakistan and Turkiye...Read their history how strong their bond is....Pakistanis trust only two countries with closed eyes....China and Turkiye...

May Allah bless those hardworking folks...



HannibalBarca said:


> Now change "Turkey" with "Iran"

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Trango Towers

Hassan Guy said:


> If Pakistan joins the program, they have to develop the single engine variant. Variant for PAF, while Turkey's can still be dual engine.


Why?


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

sharingan said:


> Turkey is evil



NOPE.....You are being childish...They may be evil for Iran but not for Pakistan...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

sharingan said:


> I hope this never happens, Turkey is evil



Hi,

Welcome to the forum----. I think you ended up at the wrong place---.

This is not the right place to bash Turkey---because there won't be any takers.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

sharingan said:


> Iran bought Civil passenger jets, big deal, I guess you just dont care about military cooperation between muslim countries and the countries responsible for slaughtering thousands if not millions of muslims. And thats fine, support whoever you like



Pakistanis never supported killings of Muslims anywhere...I get what you're trying to say but problem is everyone has blood on his hands...Should Pakistan break its relations with Iran as Iran is murdering and displacing Syrian Sunni Muslims?

We establish relations so that we can safeguard our interests...Iranians will love to do that but problem is they are ruled by Mullah regime, a regime common Iranians can't afford to rise against...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HannibalBarca

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Pakistanis never supported killings of Muslims anywhere...I get what you're trying to say but problem is everyone has blood on his hands...Should Pakistan break its relations with Iran as Iran is murdering and displacing Syrian Sunni Muslims?
> 
> We establish relations so that we can safeguard our interests...Iranians will love to do that but problem is they are ruled by Mullah regime, a regime common Iranians can't afford to rise against...



If they do, they get killed like the last green march, they got killed by dozens by those caveman on motorcycles... oe hunged or under house arrest ( thats for public faces, lucky guys...)

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## mangekyo

HannibalBarca said:


> As for today, the country who supporting and aiding the Butcher Assad is not Israel but Iran... 300 000 killed by assad... till this day and number goes up. so yes Iran is evil and a terro state.
> 
> ps: Same saying for any country around the world supporting shitty proxies for their own gains, and letting thousands of innoncents to die in the street like dogs...



Assad was/is the legitimate ruler of Syria and asked for Irans help, Iran responded. Better to support Assad than Daesh which Turkey does. And better to have Assad rules the country than let the west place a puppet

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HannibalBarca

sharingan said:


> Assad was/is the legitimate ruler of Syria and asked for Irans help, Iran responded. Better to support Assad than Daesh which Turkey does. And better to have Assad rules the country than let the west place a puppet


See.. and after you ask why the others dislike you and those sharing your beliefs... Have Fun and Let's hope not every Iranians think like you... I really hope...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## tarrar

TFX is now officially having a new engine & other support for aircraft. 

What I want to know, is Pakistan going to be part of production of TFX? @Quwa


----------



## HannibalBarca

tarrar said:


> TFX is now officially having a new engine & other support for aircraft.
> 
> What I want to know, is Pakistan going to be part of production of TFX? @Quwa


no one knows... as for today..


----------



## mangekyo

HannibalBarca said:


> See.. and after you ask why the others dislike you and those sharing your beliefs... Have Fun and Let's hope not every Iranians think like you... I really hope...



Not at all, I am perfectly aware that some people will support anyone or anything that is anti shia

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HannibalBarca

sharingan said:


> Not at all, I am perfectly aware that some people will support anyone or anything that is anti shia


don't switch everything... don't put religion in it.. it's about Governement..never we said shia or anything like that, only Iran ,gov and bachar came up...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

HannibalBarca said:


> If they do, they get killed like the last green march, they got killed by dozens by those caveman on motorcycles... oe hunged or under house arrest ( thats for public faces, lucky guys...)


I had few Iranian friends. What I found that they're reasonable and friendly folks, proud of their Persian heritage, hate Mollas like anything and have nothing to do with _Din. _Due to this oppressive Molla regime whatever soft corners they have for _Din _are also pushed away...

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## -------

Current designs under consideration

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Path-Finder

Combat-Master said:


> Current designs under consideration


I was quite dormant on TF-X development. This is to replace F16?


----------



## Syed Asif Bukhari

Combat-Master said:


> Current designs under consideration


twin engine variant will be more reliable and better than single engine variants .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## HannibalBarca

Path-Finder said:


> I was quite dormant on TF-X development. This is to replace F16?


yes


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Combat-Master said:


> Current designs under consideration



Waiting for their Prototypes Pakistan should seriously invest in this Project

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Valar Dohaeris

Whatever might be PAF thinking for its inventory in near future, it is always wiser to get on-board on such kind of projects. It will help to acquire many expertise required to develop an indigenous high-tech platform.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Fawad alam

This is the right time to combine our energy & experience in this next generation project which will help not only Pakistan and Turkey but all the Muslim countries, Sadly our other Muslim countries are spending heavy amount of money for buying US and European weapons and still showing no interest in research and development.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Hawkeye71

Pakistan must use of the shelf option to buy fifth gen fighter. We are having limited sources. If potent , we can buy it later on


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Fawad alam said:


> This is the right time to combine our energy & experience in this next generation project which will help not only Pakistan and Turkey but all the Muslim countries, Sadly our other Muslim countries are spending heavy amount of money for buying US and European weapons and still showing no interest in research and development.


Pak and Turkey aren't the other Muslim countries - they're the legacies of the Muslim states that ruled over the known world with super power status for centuries after centuries. The USSR decimated itself within 45 years, and the the USA fizzled out in 70 years. The British could rule over Pak lands for <100 years...

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Fawad alam

Our youth is more energatic and aware,
By hard work, faith and dedication we can achieve our old Glory, Insha Allah
May Allah protect our brothers of Turkey.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> twin engine variant will be more reliable and better than single engine variants .


The plan is to produce 250 of them..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well considering Turkey would need 200-300 for their own airforce
UK might have need for their own Airforce 100-400 Jets (Typhoons will have to get supplimented)


Not to mention if Pakistan is officially introduced as a member some crafts for it
May be potential sales to Canada or Australia etc
I am certain there would be ample demand for the platform

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Syed Asif Bukhari

HAKIKAT said:


> The plan is to produce 250 of them..


UK will also need it to replace typhons and tornados

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> UK will also need it to replace typhons and tornados


No, UK already has got F35. All this is a way UK develop subsystem and technology by money provided by Turkey. They are collaborating for both benefits. UK is utilizing the experience it gained in F35 development and typhoon to make money.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## JOEY TRIBIANI

Is it confirmed ?


----------



## -------

Path-Finder said:


> I was quite dormant on TF-X development. This is to replace F16?



Indeed, starting 2030 F-16s will gradually be phased out of service.So they have 13 years to develop and start serial production. Turkey's 100th anniversary (2023) is targeted for first prototype flight.



Muhammad Omar said:


> Waiting for their Prototypes Pakistan should seriously invest in this Project



If not invest, Pakistan should send some interns over to TAI to gain experience. As we all know, experience trouts everything.



Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> twin engine variant will be more reliable and better than single engine variants .



Twin engined platform would also be my choice. Here's another render of twin engined TFX concept, this one is latest rendering made public.

Notice - no HUD like F-35, EOTS like protrusion under nose and IRST ball above nose

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Combat-Master said:


> If not invest, Pakistan should send some interns over to TAI to gain experience. As we all know, experience trouts everything.



True they can learn from the Vast Experience of TAI

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Syed Asif Bukhari

wanglaokan said:


> No, UK already has got F35. All this is a way UK develop subsystem and technology by money provided by Turkey. They are collaborating for both benefits. UK is utilizing the experience it gained in F35 development and typhoon to make money.


so does Turkey

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Syed1.

Even if we don't directly participate we need to send a team of 20-30 qualified engineers to oversee the development of this jet. It would do a world of good for them and may help us in the long run to make our own jet. Obviously Turkey and Britain would have to approve us observing them first.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Syed Asif Bukhari

Combat-Master said:


> Indeed, starting 2030 F-16s will gradually be phased out of service.So they have 13 years to develop and start serial production. Turkey's 100th anniversary (2023) is targeted for first prototype flight.
> 
> 
> 
> If not invest, Pakistan should send some interns over to TAI to gain experience. As we all know, experience trouts everything.
> 
> 
> 
> Twin engined platform would also be my choice. Here's another render of twin engined TFX concept, this one is latest rendering made public.
> 
> Notice - no HUD like F-35, EOTS like protrusion under nose and IRST ball above nose


don't know what will be in its inside . but judging from physical appearance , it looks like a F22 .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## singlefighter

HAKIKAT said:


> The plan is to produce 250 of them..



Insha Allah

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mustafa erkan

The cost will be over 100 million USD if we look the of 4.5 gen fighters prices to compare with fifth gens. This means 250 TF-X Cost much than 25 billion usd.
For example if Pakistan buys 100 TF-X also will buy new misiles and bombs which are developed for TF-X. Cost may be over 15 billion for Pakistan is a huge amount.
Best clever moment for countries which are interests in Tfx is participating to project by risk share from the begining.Turkey and England has a deal for giving state guaranties for TFX. This deal may open the way for other countries as risk share partners.


----------



## Syed1.

mustafa erkan said:


> The cost will be over 100 million USD if we look the of 4.5 gen fighters prices to compare with fifth gens. This means 250 TF-X Cost much than 25 billion usd.
> For example if Pakistan buys 100 TF-X also will buy new misiles and bombs which are developed for TF-X. Cost may be over 15 billion for Pakistan is a huge amount.
> Best clever moment for countries which are interests in Tfx is participating to project by risk share from the begining.Turkey and England has a deal for giving state guaranties for TFX. This deal may open the way for other countries as risk share partners.



Pakistan will never buy 250 TF-X. Our total requirement for fighter jets is around 500 only and majority of that number will be made up by indigenous JF-17.

Pakistan will buy maximum 80-100 TF-X, if the jet meets our requirements. That comes to around $10 billion.


----------



## mustafa erkan

Syed1. said:


> Pakistan will never buy 250 TF-X. Our total requirement for fighter jets is around 500 only and majority of that number will be made up by indigenous JF-17.
> 
> Pakistan will buy maximum 80-100 TF-X, if the jet meets our requirements. That comes to around $10 billion.


 You misunderstood 250 TF-X for Turkey

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Syed1. said:


> Pakistan will never buy 250 TF-X. Our total requirement for fighter jets is around 500 only and majority of that number will be made up by indigenous JF-17.
> 
> Pakistan will buy maximum 80-100 TF-X, if the jet meets our requirements. That comes to around $10 billion.



We can Replace F-16's with TF-X there are images of Single Engine TF-X too...


----------



## PakEye

Muhammad Omar said:


> We can Replace F-16's with TF-X there are images of Single Engine TF-X too...


Again another Single Engine we already have sufficient number of 
F- 16 Single Engine
JF-17 Single Engine 
And
why not early available option SAC-J31???
when we are in need of a deep striker Duel Engine fighter (SU-35)


----------



## Muhammad Omar

pakeye said:


> Again another Single Engine we already have sufficient number of
> F- 16 Single Engine
> JF-17 Single Engine
> And
> why not early available option SAC-J31???
> when we are in need of a deep striker Duel Engine fighter (SU-35)



PAF operated A-5's in Part with dual Engines... Also J-31 is not coming before 2024 

SU-35 yeah we are getting it in Dreams


----------



## -------

*TF-X: A New Chapter in UK–Turkey Relations Takes Flight*

_Britain and Turkey signed a £100 million deal on 28 January during Theresa May’s trade talks in Ankara with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Under the deal, BAE Systems will join forces with Turkish Aerospace Industries to develop a ‘fifth-generation fighter’ for the Turkish Air Force of the 2020s. What sort of aircraft could be produced and what implications could there be?
Britain and Turkey signed a £100 million deal on 28 January during Theresa May’s trade talks in Ankara with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Under the deal, BAE Systems will join forces with Turkish Aerospace Industries to develop a ‘fifth-generation fighter’ for the Turkish Air Force of the 2020s. What sort of aircraft could be produced and what implications could there be?_

While the RAF and Armée de l’Air usually come to mind as the most potent European NATO member air forces, the Turkish Air Force substantially eclipses both in terms of size. It operates a modern and effective fighter force composed predominantly of Lockheed Martin F-16s licence built by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI).

As a partner in the F-35 programme, it is no secret that the Turkish Air Force wants to upgrade to fifth-generation capabilities to keep in step with the other major air forces in NATO.

However, financial limitations and possible security concerns have limited the number of F-35s which Turkey has on order at present to six with an eventual ambition for around 100. Turkey is determined to develop an indigenous fifth-generation combat aircraft manufacturing capability as soon as possible.

Enter BAE Systems; the defence giant with experience developing and building major parts of the F-35, as well as its own Taranis low-observable UCAV. BAE Systems has the required experience and industrial knowledge to develop fifth-generation aircraft, but no domestic market to enable it to remain a producer of combat aircraft outside manufacturing parts of the Lockheed Martin F-35.

Turkey offers that market, with an air force of nineteen squadrons of third- and fourth-generation fighters in need of eventual replacement, and a threat environment likely to remain characterised by foreign interventions, instability and the proliferation of high-end weapons systems.

As such, the stated requirement for TF-X is at least 250 air-superiority fighters.

Little has been disclosed so far in terms of what sort of fighter might emerge from the TF-X collaboration. So far, the concept has not been narrowed down to a single or twin-engine design, although a derivative of Eurojet’s EJ200 that powers the Eurofighter Typhoon has been selected to power the production fighter.

*Turkey prefers a twin-engine aircraft, but key envisaged export customers such as Pakistan would prefer a single-engine jet for cost reasons.*

Given the relatively close geographical distances between Turkey and potential opponents, it is likely that range on internal fuel may be a lower priority design variable than cost, internal weapons payload and low-observable airframe shaping.

Equally, the Turkish MoD’s stated timeline of 2023 for a first flight and roughly $100 million per airframe unit cost target impose limitations on how ambitious the design of the new fighter can be. With examples to draw on from the F-22, F-35 and China’s J-20, the development of a low-observable airframe shape should not be an impossible task for TAI within that timeframe.

However, as all those who have so far tried have discovered, it is much harder to develop something that operates like a true fifth-generation fighter with all the required sensor suite and information processing capabilities. Stealth coatings are also a dark art which takes a great deal of industrial know-how and experience to master.

BAE Systems can certainly make a critical contribution to the Turkish TF-X effort in the areas of sensor integration, airframe design, weapons integration and defensive aids suite. However, the question is how much technology transfer will be permitted under the agreement, especially where American International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) concerns might be raised.

On the other hand, the Turkish defence electronics firm ASELSAN has reportedly already begun work on an active electronically scanned array AESA radar for the TF-X programme incorporating advanced gallium nitride technology. Therefore, Turkish industry seems to already be at a fairly advanced stage for many critical component technologies.

BAE Systems sensor integration and defensive aids suite expertise might be able to help TAI produce most of the critical systems for TF-X without encountering too many ITAR restrictions.

There is still a great deal of uncertainty (or possibly everything to play for) in terms of the nature of BAE Systems’ participation in the eventual production of a fighter version of TF-X. The Turkish preference is clearly for production to be undertaken almost exclusively by TAI and, therefore, barring large scale export successes there is little evidence that BAE will manufacture much beyond select components and sensors.

It is, therefore, premature to assume that TF-X will keep BAE Systems in the fighter-manufacturing business outside the F-35 programme, even though it will undoubtedly help to maintain the institutional knowledge base required through technical collaboration arrangements.

However, there are reasons to keep an eye on the export prospects for TF-X if it does mature into a useful low-observable air superiority fighter in the mid-late 2020s.

First, a little competition is no bad thing, and if one thing has come to characterise the fifth-generation fighter market in recent years, it is a lack of Western competitors to the monolithic F-35 programme.

Second, the F-35 is optimised for strike and SEAD operations in heavily defended airspace, rather than for air superiority. The TF-X has long been intended as a complementary capability alongside the strike-oriented F-35 in Turkish service.

This implies a focus on missile-load, air-to-air radar performance and the capability to operate ‘high and fast’ in a similar fashion to the US Air Force’s formidable F-22 and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Twin EJ200-derived engines could certainly produce an aircraft with potent performance, especially given the streamlining and internal weapons and fuel carriage requirements inherent in a ‘stealth’ design.

This sort of capability is something that many air forces are keen to acquire, and countries such as Japan and Australia have been explicit about their frustrations with not being permitted to purchase the F-22 for this reason.

If TAI and BAE Systems can develop a low-observable fighter with the ability to carry six or more medium-range air-to air-missiles internally, an AESA radar, sensor fusion and supercruise capabilities for somewhere in the region of $100-120 million per airframe, then the potential export opportunities could be extremely lucrative and potentially even lead to manufacturing of the aircraft on multiple production lines in different countries.

Politics, however, will undoubtedly remain the TF-X’s worst enemy on the road to the creation of a viable fifth-generation air superiority fighter. Turkey’s strained relations with other NATO members over President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s authoritarian policies, the refugee crisis and EU membership offer the potential to scupper the transfer of high-end military technologies and defence collaboration if they continue to worsen.

Furthermore, the improving Ankara–Moscow relationship remains a matter of serious concern for other NATO members, both as a potential source of war with Russia over flashpoint confrontations, and also conversely as a potential source of technology compromise to Russia during the periods when Turkey is tempted to play the West off against the Kremlin when it suits.

Finally, the most recent in Turkey’s long history of military coups saw the gutting of many of the finest squadrons in the Turkish Air Force during subsequent reprisals and a helicopter pilot defecting with his aircraft to Greece when it became clear that the attempted overthrow had failed.

In this case, the defectors landed in NATO territory, but there is a risk that in future, assuming the long-standing rift between the military and Islamist political movement continues to simmer in Turkey, that defecting pilots might deliver high-end Western military technology to Russia, Iran or countries friendly to those regimes.

In the end though, the economics of fighter development and procurement are likely to trump security concerns and BAE Systems and TAI will have the opportunity to jointly develop a fifth- generation combat aircraft with huge export potential on the basis of relatively mature and understood technologies.

If they succeed, it will change the combat aircraft market for decades to come.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Bennedict

Fawad alam said:


> This is the right time to combine our energy & experience in this next generation project which will help not only Pakistan and Turkey but all the Muslim countries, Sadly our other Muslim countries are spending heavy amount of money for buying US and European weapons and still showing no interest in research and development.


Well actually TFX could be an exit plan for Indonesia if KF-X program disbanded. USA still refuses to supply its core technology (AESA radar) which setbacking the program for more +2 years, forcing the Koreans (and us) to find alternate supplier or develop it together, if US still insist not to share it.

Would be interesting to see major muslim powers (Turkey-Pakistan-Indonesia) joining hands in developing 5th gen aircraft.

For such sensitive technology (AESA radar), would Turkey develop it herself or instead joining hands with other countries (i.e. Britain)?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Ultima Thule

pakeye said:


> when we are in need of a deep striker Duel Engine fighter (SU-35)


JH-7A is another more viable and cheap option for Pakistan


----------



## Kabotar

Bennedict said:


> Well actually TFX could be an exit plan for Indonesia if KF-X program disbanded. USA still refuses to supply its core technology (AESA radar) which setbacking the program for more +2 years, forcing the Koreans (and us) to find alternate supplier or develop it together, if US still insist not to share it.
> 
> Would be interesting to see major muslim powers (Turkey-Pakistan-Indonesia) joining hands in developing 5th gen aircraft.
> 
> For such sensitive technology (AESA radar), would Turkey develop it herself or instead joining hands with other countries (i.e. Britain)?


With JF-17 BLK 3 we might be able to get our hands on AESA tech in 5 to 6 years.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Kabotar said:


> *5 to 6.*


What is this?


----------



## Kabotar

pakistanipower said:


> What is this?


Years


----------



## Imtiaz_Sarwar

Bennedict said:


> Would be interesting to see major muslim powers (Turkey-Pakistan-Indonesia) joining hands in developing 5th gen aircraft.


An excellent idea. I hope our leaders see it that way.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cabatli_53

Bennedict said:


> Well actually TFX could be an exit plan for Indonesia if KF-X program disbanded. USA still refuses to supply its core technology (AESA radar) which setbacking the program for more +2 years, forcing the Koreans (and us) to find alternate supplier or develop it together, if US still insist not to share it.
> 
> Would be interesting to see major muslim powers (Turkey-Pakistan-Indonesia) joining hands in developing 5th gen aircraft.
> 
> For such sensitive technology (AESA radar), would Turkey develop it herself or instead joining hands with other countries (i.e. Britain)?



The core technologies are under development phase way before than TAI-BAE deal. 

Aselsan develops AESA radar which is going to host domestic superior GaN modules.

EW systems, sensors, pods and softwares are Aselsan's main expertize area.

E/O systems, Thermal, IRST sensors are already under production.

Mission computer known as Özgur and avionics are already under development by aselsan.

AA missiles ( short range IIR and long range rf) called Goktuğ/ inner pylon Cruise misssile called SOM-J is under Roketsan and SAGE responsibility.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bennedict said:


> Well actually TFX could be an exit plan for Indonesia if KF-X program disbanded. USA still refuses to supply its core technology (AESA radar) which setbacking the program for more +2 years, forcing the Koreans (and us) to find alternate supplier or develop it together, if US still insist not to share it.
> 
> Would be interesting to see major muslim powers (Turkey-Pakistan-Indonesia) joining hands in developing 5th gen aircraft.
> 
> For such sensitive technology (AESA radar), would Turkey develop it herself or instead joining hands with other countries (i.e. Britain)?


Thanks to my ulma mater microwave systems development has become like a second nature for the Turkish engineers...


----------



## Neptune

Bennedict said:


> Well actually TFX could be an exit plan for Indonesia if KF-X program disbanded. USA still refuses to supply its core technology (AESA radar) which setbacking the program for more +2 years, forcing the Koreans (and us) to find alternate supplier or develop it together, if US still insist not to share it.
> 
> Would be interesting to see major muslim powers (Turkey-Pakistan-Indonesia) joining hands in developing 5th gen aircraft.
> 
> For such sensitive technology (AESA radar), would Turkey develop it herself or instead joining hands with other countries (i.e. Britain)?



Aselsan already is developing an AESA radar (revealed at IDEF'15), for F-16s presumably. But they'll also develop the AESA radar for TF-X.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## YeBeWarned

Neptune said:


> Aselsan already is developing an AESA radar (revealed at IDEF'15), for F-16s presumably. But they'll also develop the AESA radar for TF-X.



can you explain why Turkey cant use the Same AESA on TF-X they will use for F-16 ?


----------



## Neptune

Starlord said:


> can you explain why Turkey cant use the Same AESA on TF-X they will use for F-16 ?



I am no airman but, I don't think that it would be fair to use them on tf-x. Maybe @gambit could be helpful on whether or not it would be good to place an AESA radar that is developed for a 4th gen fighter to be used on a 5th gen one, given that TF-X's interface and avionics could be able to accommodate even newer systems. Why bother fill an AR-15 mag with 9mm? (this last sentece may show my ignorance very well). Developing it both for TF-X and F-16s in fact may be costy. Because we would kill the cost-effectiveness of the project value for F-16 which has a limited timeframe to serve in Turkish colors, money talks.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## YeBeWarned

Neptune said:


> I am no airman but, I don't think that it would be fair to use them on tf-x. Maybe @gambit could be helpful on whether or not it would be good to place an AESA radar that is developed for a 4th gen fighter to be used on a 5th gen one, given that TF-X's interface and avionics could be able to accommodate even newer systems. Why bother fill an AR-15 mag with 9mm? (this last sentece may show my ignorance very well). Developing it both for TF-X and F-16s in fact may be costy. Because we would kill the cost-effectiveness of the project value for F-16 which has a limited timeframe to serve in Turkish colors, money talks.



How long do you think TuAF will operate their F-16's ? any wild guesses ?



Neptune said:


> I am no airman but, I don't think that it would be fair to use them on tf-x. Maybe @gambit could be helpful on whether or not it would be good to place an AESA radar that is developed for a 4th gen fighter to be used on a 5th gen one, given that TF-X's interface and avionics could be able to accommodate even newer systems. Why bother fill an AR-15 mag with 9mm? (this last sentece may show my ignorance very well). Developing it both for TF-X and F-16s in fact may be costy. Because we would kill the cost-effectiveness of the project value for F-16 which has a limited timeframe to serve in Turkish colors, money talks.



How long do you think TuAF will operate their F-16's ? any wild guesses ?


----------



## Baybars Han

Starlord said:


> How long do you think TuAF will operate their F-16's ? any wild guesses ?
> 
> 
> 
> How long do you think TuAF will operate their F-16's ? any wild guesses ?


They will start to retire from 2030 as TFX starts coming in and then our fleet will consist of F-35 and TFX.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Starlord said:


> can you explain why Turkey cant use the Same AESA on TF-X they will use for F-16 ?


Based on my very limited knowledge base, technology and product development need to follow a linear progression for reliability and quality assurance purposes. It's not a zero sum game. Every bit, success or failure, counts provided you keep you cognitive faculties open and functioning. Whatever they're developing now for F16 will help them to uplift for TFX, and it goes on like an endless marathon...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## YeBeWarned

Baybars Han said:


> They will start to retire from 2030 as TFX starts coming in and then our fleet will consist of F-35 and TFX.



Well that will be same time when PAF will be retiring our F-16 fleet .. I do hope that PAF will get some deal with Turkey for joint Development of TF-X , PAF future Fleet i want to see will look something like this .
100 JF-17 block 3 ----- work will start by next year 
100 JF-17 Block 1 and 2 --- 70 already in service 
100 J-31's ----- it will be our twin engine long ranger Multi-role Fighter
50-80 TF-X ----- Our Air Superiority Fighter , replacement for F-16's

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## WhyCry

Starlord said:


> Well that will be same time when PAF will be retiring our F-16 fleet .. I do hope that PAF will get some deal with Turkey for joint Development of TF-X , PAF future Fleet i want to see will look something like this .
> 100 JF-17 block 3 ----- work will start by next year
> 100 JF-17 Block 1 and 2 --- 70 already in service
> 100 J-31's ----- it will be our twin engine long ranger Multi-role Fighter
> 50-80 TF-X ----- Our Air Superiority Fighter , replacement for F-16's


You forgot 200 F-35's


----------



## cabatli_53

TAI head Temel Kotil states;

-TF-X will be a superior and one of the best air superiority fighter to hunt F-35 like 5th generation fighters that F-16 can't do at supersonic speeds.
-~10,000 total personnal will work for TAI inside/outside of institute within 10 years for TF-X
-New huge installation of TAI will host 2700 aerospace engineers
-BAE/TAI Phase-1 deal contains first 4 years of design studies
-Domestic turbofan engine development for TF-X commenced. It takes 10 years to develop. Turkish institutes have core single crystal blade technologies to achieve this goal.
-TF-X Phase-1 Design budget (4 years): 1,3 billion $
-TF-X Phase-2 budget: 8 billion $ certain ( He predicts design/development/production worth around 20 billion $ budget)
-BAE will provide 400 engineer/year for TF-X worth 156 million$
-~3000 Turkish engineers will work for TF-X
-All IP and export rights of TF-X will be owned by Turkish Republic.
-First Flight/demonstration : 2023
-TurAF and ally state induction: 2029
-After the Phase-1 design phase with BAE and succesfull demonstration of fighter, he's expecting other companies and countries to join the project

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> TAI head Temel Kotil states;
> 
> -TF-X will be a superior and one of the best air superiority fighter to hunt F-35 like 5th generation fighters that F-16 can't do at supersonic speeds.
> -~10,000 total personnal will work for TAI inside/outside of institute within 10 years for TF-X
> -New TAI huge installation will host 2700 aerospace engineers
> -BAE/TAI Phase-1 deal contains first 4 years of design studies
> -Domestic turbofan engine development for TF-X commenced. It takes 10 years to develop.
> -TF-X Phase-1 Design budget (4 years): 1,3 billion $
> -TF-X Phase-2 budget: 8 billion $ certain ( He predicts design/development/production worth around 20 billion $ budget)
> -BAE will provide 400 engineer/year for TF-X worth 156 million$
> -~3000 Turkish engineers will work for TF-X
> -First Flight : 2023
> -TurAF and ally state induction: 2029
> -After the Phase-1 design phase with BAE and succesfull demonstration of fighter, he's expecting other companies and countries to join the project


Sounds about right, though the initially projected overhead of nearly USD $10bn is really ambitious. Assuming the cost of materials and labour aren't notably excessive, the flyaway cost of each TFX would be around USD $120-130m (on 200 TuAF planes). With maintenance and support it would be USD $200m (i.e. the USD $20bn figure floated by Temel Kotli). That's quite competitive for a 5th gen fighter.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## WarFariX

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sounds about right, though the initially projected overhead of nearly USD $10bn is really ambitious. Assuming the cost of materials and labour aren't notably excessive, the flyaway cost of each TFX would be around USD $120-130m (on 200 TuAF planes). With maintenance and support it would be USD $200m (i.e. the USD $20bn figure floated by Temel Kotli). That's quite competitive for a 5th gen fighter.


Bilal sir , How would you analyse this statement "PAF as dream of it's indigenous 5th gen platform can choose TFX single engine development in home so that PAF will also be partner of TFX program as well as single engine version will be available for export by PAC to the world . This will replace F-16s of PAF"


----------



## KediKesenFare3

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sounds about right, though the initially projected overhead of nearly USD $10bn is really ambitious.



You're assuming that the estimated cost about $10bn is too low?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

KediKesenFare said:


> You're assuming that the estimated cost about $10bn is too low?


It's not clear yet, but it may climb as the years go on. 


MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Bilal sir , How would you analyse this statement "PAF as dream of it's indigenous 5th gen platform can choose TFX single engine development in home so that PAF will also be partner of TFX program as well as single engine version will be available for export by PAC to the world . This will replace F-16s of PAF"


PAF will have to choose from what the market offers. From what I can see, the 5th gen (or whatever) fighter will be the PAF's next top-tier platform, i.e. the F-16 replacement (literal and metaphorical). If the market only offers twin engine designs, such as the FC-31 or TFX, the PAF will choose one of those. 

I don't think we'll see PAC develop a new fighter, rather, they'll continue working on the JF-17 design. In the distant future, a JF-17 variant of some kind (Block-6, 7, 8, etc) will continue to be the PAF's mainstay jet. And this isn't a bad thing, especially if sensor technologies reach a point where they can detect low-RCS objects at safe distances.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Cornered Tiger

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Bilal sir , How would you analyse this statement "PAF as dream of it's indigenous 5th gen platform can choose TFX single engine development in home so that PAF will also be partner of TFX program as well as single engine version will be available for export by PAC to the world . This will replace F-16s of PAF"



I want to analyse it as well. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Bhai pardon me as I am not eligible to do this in-front of you.

I think Its a clear post 2030 scenario, when PAF F-16s will be on the replacement roll. PAF will surely go for some squadrons of J-31 post 2020 after the solid foundation & a little outcome of Kamra Aviation City. By the time J-31 will be a very good Air Superiority platform, having 6 AAMs in internal bays and long legs. Indigenous TFX with one Engine might be second choice of PAF after J-31's operational experience.

As of now PAF is in need of a long legged Fighter, that is why PAF is looking for limited numbers of Su-35s, Typhoons, J-11Ds OR used Mirage 2K9s that can carry Deep Precision Strikes and provide Maritime Support as well.

J-11Ds (if selected Russia will allow export) OR used Mirage 2K9s have a very solid chance here, because they can come with MRO and necessary Spares. PAF will try its maximum to keep Overall Cost low.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## The Eagle

Cornered Tiger said:


> I want to analyse it as well. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Bhai pardon me as I am not eligible to do this in-front of you.
> 
> I think Its a clear post 2030 scenario, when PAF F-16s will be on the replacement roll. PAF will surely go for some squadrons of J-31 post 2020 after the solid foundation & a little outcome of Kamra Aviation City. By the time J-31 will be a very good Air Superiority platform, having 6 AAMs in internal bays and long legs. Indigenous TFX with one Engine might be second choice of PAF after J-31's operational experience.
> 
> As of now PAF is in need of a long legged Fighter, that is why PAF is looking for limited numbers of Su-35s, Typhoons, J-11Ds OR used Mirage 2K9s that can carry Deep Precision Strikes and provide Maritime Support as well.
> 
> J-11Ds (if selected Russia will allow export) OR used Mirage 2K9s have a very solid chance here, because they can come with MRO and necessary Spares. PAF will try its maximum to keep Overall Cost low.



Before moving ahead with the same, I think SU chapter or any Chinese flanker currently does not fit into inventory at all and the same is going to be a burden in current financial shape and our plans w.r.t. up-coming JF-17 as well as ambition of NGF. PAF stance seems like current fleet with up-coming JF-17B as well as JF-17 Block-III and then Next Generation Fighter (NGF as reportedly).

IMO firstly we have to see both FC-31/J-31 & TF-X in different contexts and possibilities along-with parties involved in program.

PAF plans for Next Generation Fighter (NGF) could be based upon two observations differently as NGF for PAF as we currently do not have a perfect 4.5++ bird hence it could be the same NGF along-with an idea to mold it into something close to 5th generation, as said a low observable stealth shape with an air-frame style of 5th Gen that may fit not just into our inventory as well as doable as per our pocket size and finance.

The FC-31/J-31 could be an idea like if we go with the same as our NGF platform so it may be like we will read FC-31 in details then PAF will bring it's own needs and requirements as per doctrine/threat to the table so then things discussed and there we have a solution as per need, threat and requirement. For the reference, we can read about how FC-1/JF-17 born and the idea came into being which was due to the need of PAF in limited budget to fulfill its requirement and bingo so the same path could be opted for our NGF by JV in the name of FC-31/J-31 or FC-X/J3x. The Chinese option also covers and clear the doubt of any third party involvement that actually gives a feeling of independence w.r.t. fear of sanctions. Chinese platform does not hold any strings along and seems to be the independent solution like we have JF-17 even reportedly, FC-31/J31 V2.0 is flying with WS-13E Chinese engine which tells us total independence for PAF in JV as per need.

On other hand TF-X is actually is also a joint venture between TAI-BAE. It is pertinent to mention here that as per reports, Turkiye holds full rights of TF-X with export to any nation and BAE has no objection as well so such assurance and Turkiye's approach for Pakistan cannot be doubted at all per current state of affairs/relations between both countries that we trust each other more than others. While looking at the development and possible doctrine it seems like Turkiye will be replacing F-16s with upcoming F-35 (single engine both and as F-35 is destined to do so for many Air-forces). By the same observations, Turkiye will be choosing Twin Engine TF-X initially that will work for Turkiye/operators as in simple definition like F-22 for USAF, the air superiority and leader of the fleet that may clear the space for entry of rest of the fleet into battle space. While looking at BAE participation, many have reservations with respect to possible sanctions or supplier hesitation of trust but Turkiye's assurance would be good enough in this regard. PAF participation wouldn't be that much in TF-X due to many reasons including Financial constrains however, the level of participation would be like learning and gaining experience for in-house solution/NGF platform with specific area co-operation between both countries.

So IMO, it is most probably going to be an air-frame like FC-31, will be molded altered as per our need and we will be working based upon our expertise gained from Turkiye Program as well as Chinese participation is a mix for PAC/PAF PF-X with possible initial input of hardware/software from Turkiye as well as China. That we can say like possibly Single Engine JV for PAF NGF with suppliers like China & Turkiye. We are thankful to Trukish invitation to Pakistan and the same indeed without any doubt, holds a lot of benefits for both countries and I hope that Pakistan may participate in this program with full swing though there are realities that cannot be ignored. Still, TF-X is going to teach us, deliver us and give us a lot of education, support and learning that I am sure, Pakistan-Turkiye have worked upon plans for this program that are not fully available in public domain.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## WarFariX

The Eagle said:


> Before moving ahead with the same, I think SU chapter or any Chinese flanker currently does not fit into inventory at all and the same is going to be a burden in current financial shape and our plans w.r.t. up-coming JF-17 as well as ambition of NGF. PAF stance seems like current fleet with up-coming JF-17B as well as JF-17 Block-III and then Next Generation Fighter (NGF as reportedly).
> 
> IMO firstly we have to see both FC-31/J-31 & TF-X in different contexts and possibilities along-with parties involved in program.
> 
> PAF plans for Next Generation Fighter (NGF) could be based upon two observations differently as NGF for PAF as we currently do not have a perfect 4.5++ bird hence it could be the same NGF along-with an idea to mold it into something close to 5th generation, as said a low observable stealth shape with an air-frame style of 5th Gen that may fit not just into our inventory as well as doable as per our pocket size and finance.
> 
> The FC-31/J-31 could be an idea like if we go with the same as our NGF platform so it may be like we will read FC-31 in details then PAF will bring it's own needs and requirements as per doctrine/threat to the table so then things discussed and there we have a solution as per need, threat and requirement. For the reference, we can read about how FC-1/JF-17 born and the idea came into being which was due to the need of PAF in limited budget to fulfill its requirement and bingo so the same path could be opted for our NGF by JV in the name of FC-31/J-31 or FC-X/J3x. The Chinese option also covers and clear the doubt of any third party involvement that actually gives a feeling of independence w.r.t. fear of sanctions. Chinese platform does not hold any strings along and seems to be the independent solution like we have JF-17 even reportedly, FC-31/J31 V2.0 is flying with WS-13E Chinese engine which tells us total independence for PAF in JV as per need.
> 
> On other hand TF-X is actually is also a joint venture between TAI-BAE. It is pertinent to mention here that as per reports, Turkiye holds full rights of TF-X with export to any nation and BAE has no objection as well so such assurance and Turkiye's approach for Pakistan cannot be doubted at all per current state of affairs/relations between both countries that we trust each other more than others. While looking at the development and possible doctrine it seems like Turkiye will be replacing F-16s with upcoming F-35 (single engine both and as F-35 is destined to do so for many Air-forces). By the same observations, Turkiye will be choosing Twin Engine TF-X initially that will work for Turkiye/operators as in simple definition like F-22 for USAF, the air superiority and leader of the fleet that may clear the space for entry of rest of the fleet into battle space. While looking at BAE participation, many have reservations with respect to possible sanctions or supplier hesitation of trust but Turkiye's assurance would be good enough in this regard. PAF participation wouldn't be that much in TF-X due to many reasons including Financial constrains however, the level of participation would be like learning and gaining experience for in-house solution/NGF platform with specific area co-operation between both countries.
> 
> So IMO, it is most probably going to be an air-frame like FC-31, will be molded altered as per our need and we will be working based upon our expertise gained from Turkiye Program as well as Chinese participation is a mix for PAC/PAF PF-X with possible initial input of hardware/software from Turkiye as well as China. That we can say like possibly Single Engine JV for PAF NGF with suppliers like China & Turkiye. We are thankful to Trukish invitation to Pakistan and the same indeed without any doubt, holds a lot of benefits for both countries and I hope that Pakistan may participate in this program with full swing though there are realities that cannot be ignored. Still, TF-X is going to teach us, deliver us and give us a lot of education, support and learning that I am sure, Pakistan-Turkiye have worked upon plans for this program that are not fully available in public domain.


i would like to add a point to your well made analysis , CAC and SAC are rivals to each other. It is a fact that CAC might be working on a 5th gen carrier platform with single engine to rival SAC's J-31 so IMO Just like F-35A/B for air force and C for carrier , we could expect a same JV type of project with china and pakistan giving pakistan the A type jet for air force and china a small single engine carrier C type fighter

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## The Eagle

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> i would like to add a point to your well made analysis , CAC and SAC are rivals to each other. It is a fact that CAC might be working on a 5th gen carrier platform with single engine to rival SAC's J-31 so IMO Just like F-35A/B for air force and C for carrier , we could expect a same JV type of project with china and pakistan giving pakistan the A type jet for air force and china a small single engine carrier C type fighter



Yes, competition among in-house entities are actually fruitful and provide beneficial results in whole prospect however, w.r.t. single engine by CAC is yet not hinted at all. FC-31 holds more chances for being Carrier version as any single engine may limit the operations as compare to twin engine. I have no clue of yet CAC working on any single engine AC hence, cannot comment further. 

With reference to PAF/PAC it is clear that PAF is working on NGF (the ACM words to be taken as credible source) and rest of the things are yet under many wraps. TF-X is going to be an advance platform without any doubt while looking at TAI-BAE expertise and experience and will be able to attract a lot of customers especially, wealthy Arab Operators that are currently denied with F-35 so Turkiye platform is going to be a success hopefully. On other hand, rivals/competitors will try to sabotage such development but seems less possible or an unfortunate event every occurred. From financial point of view purely, Pakistan participation seems to be limited but while looking at many other developments as well as our relations along-with give & take idea, who knows what it appears in future. It is true that we cannot participate w.r.t. R&D cost/a lot of money needed but still, Turkish invitation says it all that only time will tell how Pakistan is going to take part though till now, IMO, it would be really helpful for our NGF if we are not buying TF-X that we will learn a lot, read Turkish gadgets for an in-house solution.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Cornered Tiger

The Eagle said:


> So IMO, it is most probably going to be an air-frame like FC-31, will be molded altered as per our need and we will be working based upon our expertise gained from Turkiye Program as well as Chinese participation is a mix for PAC/PAF PF-X with possible initial input of hardware/software from Turkiye as well as China. That we can say like possibly Single Engine JV for PAF NGF with suppliers like China & Turkiye. We are thankful to Trukish invitation to Pakistan and the same indeed without any doubt, holds a lot of benefits for both countries and I hope that Pakistan may participate in this program with full swing though there are realities that cannot be ignored. Still, TF-X is going to teach us, deliver us and give us a lot of education, support and learning that I am sure, Pakistan-Turkiye have worked upon plans for this program that are not fully available in public domain.



It could be an option BUT after 2030 because it seems to be a long term Project and as IAF will sure also go for F-35 in future. PAF at first would like to have an off the shelf solution as NGF because of Urgency due to T-50 which will be in IAF by the 2022, It will pose a serious threat to PAF.

So basically PAF will also go for two NGFs. *First (off the shelf) soon after IAF's PAKfa and Second soon after IAF's F-35 (Indigenous - Chinese + Turkish Mix OR Single Engine TFX)*.


----------



## The Eagle

Cornered Tiger said:


> It could be an option BUT after 2030 because it seems to be a long term Project and as IAF will sure also go for F-35 in future. PAF at first would like to have an off the shelf solution as NGF because of Urgency due to T-50 which will be in IAF by the 2022, It will pose a serious threat to PAF.



Well as per my understanding and limited knowledge, IAF will hardly receive complete order of Rafale by 2021 and PAK-FA is farther than this. 




Cornered Tiger said:


> So basically PAF will also go for two NGFs. *First (off the shelf) soon after IAF's PAKfa and Second soon after IAF's F-35 (Indigenous - Chinese + Turkish Mix OR Single Engine TFX)*.



Two (2)? not like that my friend that PAF is not that luxurious Air-Force. Either off the shelf or in-house production, the NGF will remain one for us. If not the whole TF-X, I am seeing the same as our required tech for NGF or on lighter side, a gift from sky in view of Turkish expertise (the famous ASELSAN and many more) and their reputable techs. Just saying.


----------



## Cornered Tiger

The Eagle said:


> Well as per my understanding and limited knowledge, IAF will hardly receive complete order of Rafale by 2021 and PAK-FA is farther than this.



Last Rafale by 2021 and First PakFa by 2022 is very much possible.



The Eagle said:


> Two (2)? not like that my friend that PAF is not that luxurious Air-Force. Either off the shelf or in-house production, the NGF will remain one for us. If not the whole TF-X, I am seeing the same as our required tech for NGF or on lighter side, a gift from sky in view of Turkish expertise (the famous ASELSAN and many more) and their reputable techs. Just saying.



Not 2 at the same time, I know PAF is Fund-Constrained Force. BUT one after the other is very likely by PAF just because of different requirements at different times & Off-course PAF had to eventually keep up the pace with whole World and replace all 4th Gen Fighters. Now & then PAF will have to go for two or more platforms.


----------



## The Eagle

Cornered Tiger said:


> Last Rafale by 2021 and First PakFa by 2022 is very much possible.



Let's see my friend. 




Cornered Tiger said:


> Not 2 at the same time, I know PAF is Fund-Constrained Force. BUT one after the other is very likely by PAF just because of different requirements at different times & Off-course PAF had to eventually keep up the pace with whole World and replace all 4th Gen Fighters. Now & then PAF will have to go for two or more platforms.



Check the pattern of PAF that mostly works with High Quality Doctrine to overcome the weakness of quantity due to to financial constrains. Hope you will understand the same. PAF use to work with more effective, less quantity with limited budget as per threat assessment and need. Once, the economy boomed high, will see more and different options but currently, it seems like as continued and happening. Personally I too wish every top class goody in our hand but the fact is also to be kept in check. IMO, different requirements will be fulfilled mostly with single solution as smart & cost effective decisions like what we see as JF-17. Most of the aging fleet is designed to be replaced with JF-17 Block-II and supplemented with upcoming JF-17 Block-III, saying that, added more punch and quality than before to the fleet. Now coming to F-16s, that is the area which needs to be addressed hence, FC-31/J-31 or TF-X type aircraft that will initially supplement F-16s then when the time comes, will be helping to replace the same as well like two birds with one, IMO.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## tarrar

I want to see the agreement inked between the two countries, then we will know its happening. 

In my opinion there is a high probability of Pakistan joining TFX program.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMHO:

1. One new next-generation fighter to replace the F-16s.

2. New JF-17 variants to replace old JF-17 variants. Hopefully the new variants will use lots of composites, new engines (e.g. WS-13E) and the subsystems (e.g. radar, avionics, EW/ECM) from the next-gen fighter. 

There's no need for a single engine next-gen fighter, especially one that is entirely dependent on the PAF for anchor orders and scale to distribute the R&D overhead (which will be all Pakistan too). We wouldn't be able to sustain it easily, it would be best to either partner with Turkey or to buy from China.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## -------

TFX panoramic cockpit display

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMHO:
> 
> 1. One new next-generation fighter to replace the F-16s.
> 
> 2. New JF-17 variants to replace old JF-17 variants. Hopefully the new variants will use lots of composites, new engines (e.g. WS-13E) and the subsystems (e.g. radar, avionics, EW/ECM) from the next-gen fighter.
> 
> There's no need for a single engine next-gen fighter, especially one that is entirely dependent on the PAF for anchor orders and scale to distribute the R&D overhead (which will be all Pakistan too). We wouldn't be able to sustain it easily, it would be best to either partner with Turkey or to buy from China.


I agree. The likely contender for the stealth fighter will be J31 and future iterations may have input from other sources to keep the fighter relevant till 2040-50. In support the US is likely to be flying the 16s till around that time so we will also do so.
A


----------



## mrrehan

cloud4000 said:


> It's going to be about the money. How much will it cost? How many air frames will it acquire? Will it be assembled in Pakistan? So many questions.



If its about money India could have don't that.


----------



## Sucha Kuggu

I will rather go to China than Turkey for my next fighter jet. China has lot of accomplishments in the field as compared to Turkey and JF-17 project also tells that Chinese are good in transfer of technology to Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not clear yet, but it may climb as the years go on.
> 
> PAF will have to choose from what the market offers. From what I can see, the 5th gen (or whatever) fighter will be the PAF's next top-tier platform, i.e. the F-16 replacement (literal and metaphorical). If the market only offers twin engine designs, such as the FC-31 or TFX, the PAF will choose one of those.
> 
> I don't think we'll see PAC develop a new fighter, rather, they'll continue working on the JF-17 design. In the distant future, a JF-17 variant of some kind (Block-6, 7, 8, etc) will continue to be the PAF's mainstay jet. And this isn't a bad thing, especially if sensor technologies reach a point where they can detect low-RCS objects at safe distances.



It will be good if JFT evolved to similar or may be better then Advance Super Hornet or Silient Eagle.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cabatli_53

Combat Aircraft Magazine

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## T-123456

The Eagle said:


> Turkiye will be replacing F-16s with upcoming F-35 (single engine both and as F-35 is destined to do so for many Air-forces).


The F-35 will be replacing the F-4s of the Turkish Air Force,the TFX will be replacing the F-16s.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## The Eagle

T-123456 said:


> The F-35 will be replacing the F-4s of the Turkish Air Force,the TFX will be replacing the F-16s.



Some early models F-16s will be replaced by F-35 and the rest of F-16s fleet will be replaced by TFX by next.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## WarFariX

cabatli_53 said:


> Combat Aircraft Magazine
> 
> View attachment 381498


which issue? month


----------



## T-123456

The Eagle said:


> Some early models F-16s will be replaced by F-35 and the rest of F-16s fleet will be replaced by TFX by next.


Yes because the early models took over the role of the retired early model F-4s,the only F-4s left are the F-4 Phantom 2020s.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## XDescendantX

We should definitely help our Turkish brothers with any expertise we can give them. But in the end, Turkey will most likely go for a twin-engine stealth fighter.

Until Pakistan upgrades to an economic power a single-engine stealth fighter will have to do. Let's bring back knowledge from the TFX program and put it to good use. Pakistan should continue to upgrade it's JFT program and create a single-engine stealth version. 

Don't forget, twin-engines cost twice as much to maintain. We won't be getting all these fancy new jet fighters everyone keeps talking about. If we were, we would've added the J-10 (another really cool jet) to our inventory. We only have $$$ for ONE and we only have $$$ to train for ONE. 

We can always get a twin-engine stealth fighter from our allies China (J-31) or Turkey (TFX) when needed. BUT we're only going to get ONE!! 

future PAF: 
single-engine JFX (stealth JF-17/JF-18)
twin-engine J-31 OR TFX


----------



## Saifullah Sani

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and BAE Systems will ink the TFX design and development agreement they signed in January at the International Defence Industry Fair (IDEF), which is taking place in Istanbul.
In January, TAI and BAE Systems agreed to a £100 million-plus contract that will involve BAE assisting TAI with the design and development of the TFX next-generation multi-role fighter.

The Turkish language news publisher Yeni Şafak reports that the aforementioned agreement will be inked during IDEF. *Yeni Şafak added that Pakistan, which had been linked to the TFX program in 2016, may sign a “goodwill agreement” and be a partner in the TFX program. Additional details were not provided.*

*Notes & Comments:
*
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has not disclosed specific plans regarding its next-generation fighter plans. It did outline on numerous occasions that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra will play a key role in bringing the program to fruition, particularly with the support of the educational facilities being raised in its vicinity as part of the Kamra Aviation City initiative. In March, the PAF’s Chief of Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman said that PAC’s future lies in manufacturing 5th-generation fighters and active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radars. However, specifics regarding partners or suppliers for the PAF 5th-generation fighter were not provided.

Although the PAF has not commented on the TFX, Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) had spoke of it on several occasions. In August, the MoDP Rana Tanveer Hussain told Pakistan’s state-owned television network PTV that Turkey requested Pakistan’s participation on the TFX. In November, the Secretary of the MoDP – Lt. Gen. (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais – told MSI Turkish Defence Review that the “details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments.” At Pakistan’s biennial defence exhibition IDEAS, TAI’s Senior Executive Vice President for Aircraft Ozcan Ertem told MSI that TAI was engaged with relevant Pakistani parties on the TFX.

In a recent interview of the MoDP at IDEF by Anadolu Agency, Mr. Hussain said that Pakistan may initially contribute with integration work at PAC, but efforts will be made to form business ties with Britain (note: the MoDP specifically named the Royal Air Force), from which point PAC will become a partner in the TFX.
The PAF’s current focus is on supplanting the remainder of its 190 legacy F-7P and Mirage III/5s with the JF-17 Thunder, its emerging backbone fighter. For the PAF, its next milestone program is the AESA radar-equipped JF-17 Block-III, which it views will be a significant addition to its fleet from 2019-2020. Besides the JF-17, the PAF leadership continues pointing towards the F-16 as a preferred off-the-shelf fighter for meeting near-term needs. The remainder, be it reports of interest in the Sukhoi Su-35 or other avenues, have been subject to secondary news reports and observer speculation.

The TFX topic is in a strange space in that while the PAF does not comment on it, the Pakistani MoDP and Turkish industry have been forthcoming about Pakistan’s engagement. Interestingly, the PAF CAS ACM Sohail Aman did tell PTV that talks for “procuring” fifth-generation fighters were underway with several countries (seemingly separate from the PAC fifth-generation fighter program). However, this does not necessarily mean that the PAF is interested in the TFX for its own fleet – PAC had manufactured parts of the TAI Anka UAV, even though Pakistan did not procure the drone.
http://quwa.org/2017/05/09/tai-bae-will-ink-tfx-agreement-pakistan-may-join-partner/

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hareeb

Saifullah Sani said:


> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and BAE Systems will ink the TFX design and development agreement they signed in January at the International Defence Industry Fair (IDEF), which is taking place in Istanbul.
> In January, TAI and BAE Systems agreed to a £100 million-plus contract that will involve BAE assisting TAI with the design and development of the TFX next-generation multi-role fighter.
> 
> The Turkish language news publisher Yeni Şafak reports that the aforementioned agreement will be inked during IDEF. *Yeni Şafak added that Pakistan, which had been linked to the TFX program in 2016, may sign a “goodwill agreement” and be a partner in the TFX program. Additional details were not provided.*
> 
> *Notes & Comments:
> *
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has not disclosed specific plans regarding its next-generation fighter plans. It did outline on numerous occasions that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra will play a key role in bringing the program to fruition, particularly with the support of the educational facilities being raised in its vicinity as part of the Kamra Aviation City initiative. In March, the PAF’s Chief of Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman said that PAC’s future lies in manufacturing 5th-generation fighters and active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radars. However, specifics regarding partners or suppliers for the PAF 5th-generation fighter were not provided.
> 
> Although the PAF has not commented on the TFX, Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) had spoke of it on several occasions. In August, the MoDP Rana Tanveer Hussain told Pakistan’s state-owned television network PTV that Turkey requested Pakistan’s participation on the TFX. In November, the Secretary of the MoDP – Lt. Gen. (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais – told MSI Turkish Defence Review that the “details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments.” At Pakistan’s biennial defence exhibition IDEAS, TAI’s Senior Executive Vice President for Aircraft Ozcan Ertem told MSI that TAI was engaged with relevant Pakistani parties on the TFX.
> 
> In a recent interview of the MoDP at IDEF by Anadolu Agency, Mr. Hussain said that Pakistan may initially contribute with integration work at PAC, but efforts will be made to form business ties with Britain (note: the MoDP specifically named the Royal Air Force), from which point PAC will become a partner in the TFX.
> The PAF’s current focus is on supplanting the remainder of its 190 legacy F-7P and Mirage III/5s with the JF-17 Thunder, its emerging backbone fighter. For the PAF, its next milestone program is the AESA radar-equipped JF-17 Block-III, which it views will be a significant addition to its fleet from 2019-2020. Besides the JF-17, the PAF leadership continues pointing towards the F-16 as a preferred off-the-shelf fighter for meeting near-term needs. The remainder, be it reports of interest in the Sukhoi Su-35 or other avenues, have been subject to secondary news reports and observer speculation.
> 
> The TFX topic is in a strange space in that while the PAF does not comment on it, the Pakistani MoDP and Turkish industry have been forthcoming about Pakistan’s engagement. Interestingly, the PAF CAS ACM Sohail Aman did tell PTV that talks for “procuring” fifth-generation fighters were underway with several countries (seemingly separate from the PAC fifth-generation fighter program). However, this does not necessarily mean that the PAF is interested in the TFX for its own fleet – PAC had manufactured parts of the TAI Anka UAV, even though Pakistan did not procure the drone.
> http://quwa.org/2017/05/09/tai-bae-will-ink-tfx-agreement-pakistan-may-join-partner/


I think Pakistan will send some engineering teams for TFX program - to learn tidbits about western tech for 5th gen. aircraft - and will collaborate with China on J-31 (may manufacture some parts in PAC for Pakistan procured J-31) and may replace some Chinese tech with Western tech for her 5th gen. aircrafts. A mix of east-west tech.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

My gut tells me that this will probably be an industry level partnership with TAI sending some valuable work to PAC in exchange for T-129 and MILGEM contracts - i.e. offsets. Of course, the industry element could lead to the PAF buying a few TFX to begin replacing F-16s, but that need not happen. PAC also made Anka UAV parts, even though neither the PAF or the PA bought Anka UAVs.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My gut tells me that this will probably be an industry level partnership with TAI sending some valuable work to PAC in exchange for T-129 and MILGEM contracts - i.e. offsets. Of course, the industry element could lead to the PAF buying a few TFX to begin replacing F-16s, but that need not happen. PAC also made Anka UAV parts, even though neither the PAF or the PA bought Anka UAVs.



"Pakistan and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on the defense industry, and with the approach of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan," Turkey should produce a national war plane, "Turkey will start to produce its own national war plane in 10 years. First, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will provide support for the integration of our factory, and the second phase will be a business alliance with the British Air Force, and at that point we will be the partner of this program in Pakistan. "

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## skybolt

The Eagle said:


> "Pakistan and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on the defense industry, and with the approach of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan," Turkey should produce a national war plane, "Turkey will start to produce its own national war plane in 10 years. First, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will provide support for the integration of our factory, and the second phase will be a business alliance with the British Air Force, and at that point we will be the partner of this program in Pakistan. "


Good news


----------



## ejaz007

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and BAE Systems have announced




that they will ink the TFX design and development agreement that was signed by both companies in January at this year’s International Defence Industry Fair (IDEF) 2017. Valued at almost $130 million, the deal will see BAE assisting TAI with the design and development of the TFX next-generation multi-role fighter. It has also been reported that Pakistan may be interested in participating in the project, with Turkish industry and Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production speaking on what future collaboration would look like. However, the Pakistan Air Force has yet to comment on whether it would be interested in participating in producing and procuring such an aircraft.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/


----------



## tarrar

TFX is on route of development as deal has been finalised with RollsRoyce for TFX engine & BAE will help in design & etc. 

There is a very good possibility of Pakistan joining this project which will be good for both the countries in terms of sharing experience & ideas.


----------



## -------

The Eagle said:


> Some early models F-16s will be replaced by F-35 and the rest of F-16s fleet will be replaced by TFX by next.



Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) are about to embark on a F-16 service life extension (SLE) for all 35 Turkish Air Force Block 30s.

TAI are the prime contractors and Lockheed Martin is the sub-contractor which will provide the engineering kits. Work on the first two aircraft, a single-seat F-16C and dual seat F-16D, will commence this November at the TAI Ankara facility.

With flight testing the work should take about a year and once proved, will see the SLE commence on the remaining 33 jets.

TAI will complete work on the first 25 aircraft before the work is transferred to the 1st Air Maintenance Support Centre (AMSC) at Eskisehir.

http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/11-air/1429-tai-to-extend-life-of-turaf-f-16s.html

No news on what type of Avionics upgrades those 33 Jets will get, they certainly won't extend life without some avionics upgrades. So I'm assuming, they will get Ozgur Avionics package developed in collaboration with TAI and Aselsan.


        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## cabatli_53



Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Big fan of good will


----------



## Path-Finder

I have read the flurry of comments while it is very good news but TFX is the project of the next decade! In this decade it is begining but it will reach readiness in the 2020's. However in the meantime there are many opportunities to learn and procure equipment from Turkey. ASELPOD has been obtained! But I see possibility of AESA radar A2A missile's newly unveiled this year along with possibly HMDCS can come from Turkey as well.


----------



## cabatli_53

According to a reliable source, Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Turkey signed a deal to establish a common infrastructure of flight trainings. In this aspect, It is agreed to have same type of training aircrafts from same origin to achieve this common concept.

Selected aircrafts!

-Primary level: SuperMushak
-Basic level: Hürkuş-B/C
-Advanced level: Hürjet (Trainer/Close support)

At present, It is being talked to purchase Hürkuş, SuperMushak and Hürjet trainer/fighters for Azerbaijan,Turkey and Pakistan. According to info, Hürjet aircrafts will be operated in Pakistan/Azerbaijan not only for advanced trainer, but also for auxiliary fighter aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Cookie Monster

cabatli_53 said:


> According to a reliable source, Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Turkey signed a deal to establish a common infrastructure of flight trainings. In this aspect, It is agreed to have same type of training aircrafts from same origin to achieve this common concept.
> 
> Selected aircrafts!
> 
> -Primary level: SuperMushak
> -Basic level: Hürkuş-B/C
> -Advanced level: Hürjet (Trainer/Close support)
> 
> In this aspect, It is being talked to purchase Hürkuş and Hürjet trainer/fighters to Azerbaijan and Pakistan, While Turkey and Azerbaijan to purchase Super Mushak. According to info, Hürjet will be operated in Pakistan/Azerbaijan not only for advanced trainer, but also for auxiliary fighter aircraft.


Where does that leave K8 trainers? Since Pak has already jointly developed K8 with China...would that then be a lost investment?

Or can K8 somehow still fit into the picture?

If Pak/Azerbaijan/Turkey go the route of
Primary: SuperMushak
Basic: K8 Karakoram
Advanced: Hürjet

Wouldn't that be better bcuz it will cut down on the cost of Turkish development of Hürkuş. Additionally since SuperMushak is already a turboprop...wouldnt it be better to next train the pilots on a jet K8(instead of another turboprop Hürkuş) and then another advanced jet Hürjet? Since they are being trained to fly jet fighters...the more exposure to jet trainers the better.


----------



## SQ8

Cookie Monster said:


> Where does that leave K8 trainers? Since Pak has already jointly developed K8 with China...would that then be a lost investment?
> 
> Or can K8 somehow still fit into the picture?
> 
> If Pak/Azerbaijan/Turkey go the route of
> Primary: SuperMushak
> Basic: K8 Karakoram
> Advanced: Hürjet
> 
> Wouldn't that be better bcuz it will cut down on the cost of Turkish development of Hürkuş. Additionally since SuperMushak is already a turboprop...wouldnt it be better to next train the pilots on jet K8(instead of another turboprop Hürkuş) and then another advanced jet Hürjet? Since they are being trained to fly jet fighters...the more exposure to jet trainers the better.


Pakistan will skip the Hurkus... keep the K-8. The Hurjet is a long way off to see if it ends up replacing the F-7s at mianwali.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Pakistan will skip the Hurkus... keep the K-8. The Hurjet is a long way off to see if it ends up replacing the F-7s at mianwali.


On the other hand, the Hürjet is enough of a long way out to save pennies for if and when the time comes to order...


----------



## cabatli_53

Hürjet’s Light Attack configuration will share the role of F-16 Aircraft as Lead-in Fighter Trainer and Close Air Support in the 2020's with its 3000 kg payload. Hürjet is expected to be used for Close Air Support, Red Aircraft and Air Policing (or board security and counterterrorism) missions by Turkey and allied countries.

Main objectives of the project are:


Fulfillment of the TurAF’s operational, functional and performance requirements regarding jet trainer and light attack aircraft, by designing and developing an indigenous system utilizing readily available technologies to keep the unit and ownership costs low.
Replacement of the current TurAF T-38 fleet, consisting of about 70 aircraft. The production volume may increase depending on the “Light Attack Aircraft” needs of TurAF and/or potential customers.
The maximum speed of Hürjet will be Mach 1.2; the maximum altitude will be 45,000 ft.

——

That’s what TAI tells about Hürjet. Hürjet will serve as close air supppot, air patrolling roles additions to training mission. Twin engine enables it to carry relatively heavy payload capacity (3000kg). It seems Turkey and partners will try to hit two birds with one stone.

I don’t have much details about roles of K-8 in Pakistan Airforce so I don’t know whether Hürkus and K-8 is competitors to replace eacother in same training level because of One is a jet powered while other one is turbop.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## blinder

Both can work. The Hürkus is in the same class as the PC-9 I think? The USAF have replaced their T-37 with the T-6 (PC-9) too. The Swiss, like I commented in another topic, use only PC-7 and PC-21 before the F/A-18 for example (although the PC-21 is in a league of its own).
So it will require some changes in the streamlining of the syllabus but it can certainly work.

It all boils down to the cost per flight hour. Normally, a turboprop aircraft is cheaper to operate than a jet aircraft. Also, the built quality and airframe hours come in to play. No idea how the Hürkus scores in that regard, but the initial K-8s and F-7P were from a time decades ago that China was still gaining experience in the field of high-end aircraft manufacturing. I would wager a bet that the airframe hours on those aircraft are even less than advertised. Pakistan had to make many improvements and work closely with China before the aircraft were up to the required standard as I recall.

Building a joint-training center makes absolute sense. Many examples exist in the world. The trend of contracting out those flight training hours instead of maintaining your own platforms is also used more frequently these days. In that case the AF do not own the aircraft but lease training hours.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## araz

Hareeb said:


> I think Pakistan will send some engineering teams for TFX program - to learn tidbits about western tech for 5th gen. aircraft - and will collaborate with China on J-31 (may manufacture some parts in PAC for Pakistan procured J-31) and may replace some Chinese tech with Western tech for her 5th gen. aircrafts. A mix of east-west tech.


PAF has been collaborating with TAI and there has been an ongoing pilot exchange programme ongoing with Turkish AF and PAF. As to flow of technology, I am not sure which way it will flow. Please remember that we have had ongoing participation and partnership with CATIC. We have been working with them on undisclosed programmes along with the JFT. Iam quite happy to be taught the level of involvement of TAI in the 16s programme. How much of local content was there in this programme? I know the avionics and electronic source codes were Turrkish.
It seems to me that the likely flow of information may flow equally both ways especially if Turkey decides to manufacture Engines. Our interests will also depend on the level of advancement the Chinese make. If their engine Tech moves forward we may not have to look elsewhere. So this talk of participation in this or that programme depends on which partner gains what from the project. Towards the late 20s the Chinese will be more advanced and provided we dont get sold down the river by our politicians our knowlexge base would have advanced significantly.
A



Oscar said:


> Pakistan will skip the Hurkus... keep the K-8. The Hurjet is a long way off to see if it ends up replacing the F-7s at mianwali.


To my synical soul it seems unlikely. I suspect if push comes to shove we might either use the JFT 17B or procure a small number of platforms from China or a third party. It should not be a priority for us.
A


----------



## 帅的一匹

cabatli_53 said:


> Hürjet’s Light Attack configuration will share the role of F-16 Aircraft as Lead-in Fighter Trainer and Close Air Support in the 2020's with its 3000 kg payload. Hürjet is expected to be used for Close Air Support, Red Aircraft and Air Policing (or board security and counterterrorism) missions by Turkey and allied countries.
> 
> Main objectives of the project are:
> 
> 
> Fulfillment of the TurAF’s operational, functional and performance requirements regarding jet trainer and light attack aircraft, by designing and developing an indigenous system utilizing readily available technologies to keep the unit and ownership costs low.
> Replacement of the current TurAF T-38 fleet, consisting of about 70 aircraft. The production volume may increase depending on the “Light Attack Aircraft” needs of TurAF and/or potential customers.
> The maximum speed of Hürjet will be Mach 1.2; the maximum altitude will be 45,000 ft.
> 
> ——
> 
> That’s what TAI tells about Hürjet. Hürjet will serve as close air supppot, air patrolling roles additions to training mission. Twin engine enables it to carry relatively heavy payload capacity (3000kg). It seems Turkey and partners will try to hit two birds with one stone.
> 
> I don’t have much details about roles of K-8 in Pakistan Airforce so I don’t know whether Hürkus and K-8 is competitors to replace eacother in same training level because of One is a jet powered while other one is turbop.


Something like South Korean T50?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

wanglaokan said:


> Something like South Korean T50?


The Hurjet seems to be L-15, M-346 and Yak-130-class in size.


----------

