# Brazil to provide 100 missiles to Pakistan



## dr.umer

News just coming up in GEO that Brazile has approved sale of 100 (Air to surface) missiles to Pakistan...

Any details ???


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## dr.umer

*Brazil approves sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan​*
3 Dec 2008

BRASILIA: Brazilian authorities on Tuesday gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking instalations, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said. 

The MAR-1 medium-range missiles made by the Brazilian firm Mectron are tactical anti-radiation weapons whose existence was kept under wraps for many years, according to Jane's Information Group. 

Jobim called them "very effective ways to monitor" areas flown by war planes, and said the deal with Pakistan, originally signed in April this year, was worth 85 million euros (108 million dollars). 

He dismissed suggestions that the transaction might be questioned in light of last week's Islamist extremist massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India, which some Indian officials suspected was launched from within Pakistan. 

"Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists," he said. "To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani government."

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## Imran Khan

*MAR-1 Anti-Radiation Missile (Brazil), Air-to-surface missiles - Direct attack*


The full document for MAR-1 Anti-Radiation Missile (Brazil) is offered by Jane&#8217;s Information Group as part of its Jane's Air-Launched Weapons subscription service, available in both hardcopy and electronic formats.



MAR-1 Anti-Radiation Missile (Brazil)

Air-to-surface missiles - Direct attack

Jane's Air-Launched Weapons


Type 
Medium-range, anti-radiation, surface-to-air missile

Development 
Brazil has a long-term project to build an anti-radiation missile, known as MAR-1. The missile is being developed by a teaming of the national missile developers Mectron and the Air Force's Aerospace Technical Centre (CTA), both based at S&#227;o Jos&#233; dos Campos. There existence of the MAR-1 has been speculated on for many years, but never confirmed by the Brazilian authorities who view it as a highly sensitive programme. Mectron does not comment on the status of the MAR-1, except to say that it is a live programme conducted jointly with the CTA. In 2004 sources in the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) confirmed that the MAR-1 was nearing the end of its development and that a preliminary operational capability would be fielded in 2005. Since then, further flight tests have been conducted by the FAB but the missile has not yet been formally accepted into service. 

Air-Launched Weapons

The only accessible and constantly updated guide to the world's inventories of airborne weapons. Covering well over 600 systems, in service or in development, it provides a detailed and comprehensive reference to: capabilities/technology; functionality/effectiveness; user base; combat record; upgrades, variants and future enhancements. The guide includes extensive analysis tables covering all weapon types, national inventories and aircraft weapon loads and documents the world's air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles, bombs, rockets, guns and underwater weapons, including new and emerging weapons. 

Key contents include:

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## Imran Khan

Brazil to sell 100 missiles to Pakistan

BRAZILIAN authorities gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking instalations, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said.

The MAR-1 medium-range missiles made by the Brazilian firm Mectron are tactical anti-radiation weapons whose existence was kept under wraps for many years, according to Jane's Information Group. 

Mr Jobim called them "very effective ways to monitor" areas flown by war planes, and said the deal with Pakistan, originally signed in April this year, was worth &#8364;85 million ($167.6 million). 

He dismissed suggestions that the transaction might be questioned in light of last week's Islamist extremist massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India, which some Indian officials suspected was launched from within Pakistan. 

"Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists," Mr Jobim said.

"To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani Government

looks nice bro

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## sohailbutt

thank u for posting the beautiful pics IK, this weapon will inshallah improve the effectiveness of the operations carried out by our Air Force, and it will also keep the enemy alert at all times before they think of any misadventure


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## was

Brazil approves sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan
Updated at: 0238 PST, Wednesday, December 03, 2008
BRASILIA: Brazilian authorities on Tuesday gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking instalations, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said.

The MAR-1 medium-range missiles made by the Brazilian firm Mectron are tactical anti-radiation weapons whose existence was kept under wraps for many years, according to Jane's Information Group.

Jobim called them "very effective ways to monitor" areas flown by war planes, and said the deal with Pakistan, originally signed in April this year, was worth 85 million euros (108 million dollars).

He dismissed suggestions that the transaction might be questioned in light of last week's Islamist extremist massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India, which some Indian officials suspected was launched from within Pakistan.

"Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists," he said. "To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani government."


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## jehangirhaider

So we are getting State of art Weapons so happy 

So many new beast

air-to-air refueling aircraft
AWACS (Chinese,Swedish)
SPADA 2000
Long Range SAM(Insha Allah Soon)
JDAM
AIM 120
Latest AIM 9
PL-10
MAR-1
H-2,H-4 Stand off weapons 
J-10
J-17
F-16
Ra'ad
Babur(Air to ground version Insha Allah Soon)
Latest US and Chinese Radars(TPS,YLC...)
UAV's
C4I

So all above show how much serious is our PAF abt latest trends...
now we can Punch them.
Here i also have wish that we need to buy Ukraine made passive Kolchuga detection systems with the range of 800 km.
Why? here are some features

A complex consisting of three Kolchuga radar stations makes it possible to spot ground and surface targets and trace their movement within a radius of 600 km (air targets at the 10 km altitude - up to 800 km), which makes an effective early warning air defense system;

The 800-km detection range has been achieved only by the Ukrainian Kolchuga. The best the U.S. AWACS can do is 600 km, while the ground-based complexes Vera (Czech Republic) and Vega (Russia) can reach out up to 400 km - half what the Ukrainian complex can reach. The Kolchuga's lower limit of the working frequency range is 130MHz and is the lowest of all analogs. For the AWACS it is 2,000 MHz, for the Vera it is 850MHz, for the Vega it is 200MHz.

But where the Kolchuga has the greatest advantages is its ability to identify accurately radio objects thanks to unique algorithms and hi-tech equipment. In particular, the mean square deviation in frequency measurement - the most informative parameters for identifying types of spotted radio objects - is 0.4MHz in the Kolchuga. It is 0.5MHz - 1.0MHz in the Russian Vega, 1.0MHz in the U.S. AWACS, and as much as 3.6MHz - 21.0MHz in the Czech Vera. The maximal duration of detected impulses, measured by the Kolchuga, is 999.0 microseconds, versus 99.9 microseconds for the AWACS and 200 microseconds for the Vera. And the impulse repetition period can be measured by the Kolchuga up to the maximum of 79,999 microseconds, while no analogs can perform such measurements longer than 10,000 microseconds.

As a result, the number of detected radio objects that the Kolchuga can classify is practically unlimited, which can not be said about any known analogs. The Ukrainian station has advanced algorithms and software programs for analyzing, systematizing, generalizing, and storing information about all radio objects and parameters of their signals. And the data already collected in the database can be used to identify newly detected radio objects and can be correlated with data obtained from other reconnaissance sources.

It should be noted that the Kolchuga's undeniable advantages are not accidental or temporary. The Ukrainian product is head and shoulders above all American, Russian, French, Czech, or Brazilian developments in this field. But those who developed and made this unique product aren't resting on their laurels.

So such 4 to 6 system are enough

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## Munir

BRAZILIAN authorities gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking instalations, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said.

The MAR-1 medium-range missiles made by the Brazilian firm Mectron are tactical anti-radiation weapons whose existence was kept under wraps for many years, according to Jane's Information Group.

Mr Jobim called them "very effective ways to monitor" areas flown by war planes, and said the deal with Pakistan, originally signed in April this year, was worth 85 million ($167.6 million).

He dismissed suggestions that the transaction might be questioned in light of last week's Islamist extremist massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India, which some Indian officials suspected was launched from within Pakistan.

"Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists," Mr Jobim said.

"To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani Government."

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## Quwa

IMO Mectron should be a candidate for future tactical missile R&D.


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## sohailbutt

Can the moderators please merge these 2 same threads:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/17036-pak-buys-100-anti-rad-brazil.html#post233271

thanks.


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## Munir

>>>the deal with Pakistan, originally signed in April this year, was worth &#8364;85 million

8,5 million a missile is surely impossible. So there is TOT involved. It is used in Brasil for their upgraded F5 and since JF17 fits in the same class... This is the ARM for JF17...

Imagine what happens with radars if this bird is up there... And what happens with ship radars... What about using its seeker for Babur or Ra'ad.

This means that PAF can go deep inside India. There is hardl a chance that it will be used against Al Qaida since those have no radars...

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## Kharian_Beast

This really is a cutting edge A2G ARM that will greatly enhance the capabilities of PAF, pleasantly surprised.


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## Kharian_Beast

I agree Mr. Munir ToT is undoubtedly part of the package, source codes and the works.


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## asaad-ul-islam

I wouldn't be so sure if we will acquire these anti-radiation missiles with technology transfer. The brazilians have kept this project under tight wraps, it's a very secretive project, one of national interest. They've decided to export it, which is good for Pakistan.

I hope we can acquire weapons and secretly reverse engineer them, it would be stupid not to do so. take the chinese route, first purchase russian weaponry and have a look at the systems. then make your own weapon system and continue to improve on it. 

it would be a very good idea to copy american weapons if relations go downhill. too bad we did not do that with our F-16's, like the Iranians did with their aircraft.

*P.S*: don't get me wrong, I still pray that these come with ToT! insha'Allah!


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## General Fujita

Wow this totally caught me by suprise. I did a little research on it and its evident that the missile is developed by Mectron in collaboration with the Brazillian Air Force's Aerospace Technical Centre (CTA). It equips the F-5EM jets in Brazil air force's inventory


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## Munir

seeker can scan low power radar up to 500 km. That is theoretical distance... Let us take 50&#37; range as practical. Missile has range between 25 and 50 km. So seeker in Ra'ad or Babur would mean loitering and kill of anything that acts like a radar up to 500 km inside India. And... It would surely hurt Indian Awacs... With Elint on Erieye this seeker could be further optimized for Arrow...

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

In 1998 the program was started to develop an anti-radiation Missile to equip the aircraft A-1 (AMX) of the FAB and is expected for 2008 the end of their development. From the beginning the programme was conducted by CTA (General Command of Aerospace Technology) together with the company Mectron, also of San Jose dos Campos, 

The MAR-1 missile is a kind of tactical air-to-surface, anti-radiation from medium range, with guidance passive radar with multiple option of bandwidth to attack anti-defence systems based on land or at sea platforms. An analysis in simulated scenario showed that the head of the search MAR-1 is able to detect a radar of low power (in the case of a director shot Skyguard) to distances greater than 500 km.

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## ARSENAL6

i knew something like this would happen. A great new start of a relationship between Brazil and Pakistan. I hope the relationship goes strong for many years to come

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## TOPGUN

Very good news inded !! GOD bless Pakistan.


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## Neo

Mark Sien said:


> IMO Mectron should be a candidate for future tactical missile R&D.



IIRC the Brasilian CTA Mectron has been working closely with Denel of RSA, using the Darter-A technology in MAR-1.

Both Brazil and RSA should be candidates or rather partners in a new JV.

Here's a beautiful image of the MAR-1.

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## ejaz007

Indeed a good news. This might be a fitted to JF-17. This also means that Pakistan is close to selecting the avionics and weapons for JF-17 and has done all the work.


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## blain2

Kharian_Beast said:


> I agree Mr. Munir ToT is undoubtedly part of the package, source codes and the works.



Not completly sure about the ToT deal. Here is why. The missiles come with ancillary equipment including training rounds, storage and diagnostic and testing equipment, all of which has to be paid for besides the cost of the ARM itself. ToT would be much more costlier IMHO.

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## Cheetah786

Say hello to my other little friend
http://imageshack.us

So if this baby can take out radars can this also take out AWACS ?

Thanx neo for the Pic


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## fatman17

pakistan had requested the AGM-88 from the US but it was not allowed for FMS sale. this seems to be a very good alternative.

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## fatman17

2 VVPI a/c are also being purchased. PAF is the lead customer from Embraer. so the defence relationship is starting to mature. thx mushy for his visit to brazil.

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## jehangirhaider

Munir said:


> BRAZILIAN authorities gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking instalations, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said.
> 
> The MAR-1 medium-range missiles made by the Brazilian firm Mectron are tactical anti-radiation weapons whose existence was kept under wraps for many years, according to Jane's Information Group.
> 
> Mr Jobim called them "very effective ways to monitor" areas flown by war planes, and said the deal with Pakistan, originally signed in April this year, was worth &#8364;85 million ($167.6 million).
> 
> He dismissed suggestions that the transaction might be questioned in light of last week's Islamist extremist massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India, which some Indian officials suspected was launched from within Pakistan.
> 
> "Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists," Mr Jobim said.
> 
> "To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani Government."



*So unit cost for missile is 1.676 million

Where US HARM AGM-88 cost is US$ 284, 000 

So we hve ToT in this deal...Tht why looking costly...and its must be with 50+ km range to ensure kill enmey radars.

*


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## XYON

RIO DE JANEIRO, Dec. 2 (Xinhua) -- Brazil's Foreign Trade Chamber (Camex) approved on Tuesday official guarantees for the sale of 100 missiles to the Pakistani government.

The missiles will be produced by Mectron, a company from Sao Jose dos Campos, Sao Paulo state, with financing from Brazil's Development Bank (BNDES), local media reported.

The sale was negotiated in April between the Pakistani government and the Brazilian Air Force, but it needed approval from the Brazilian authorities to be completed.

The missiles, which equip aircraft, and detect and destroy radars, will cost 85 million euros. The approval of the official guarantees means that the Brazilian government takes responsibility for the producing company.

After the Camex meeting, Brazil's Defense Minister Nelson Jobim stressed that the sale was an operation between the two countries and praised the missiles.

"It is a very efficient tool, which monitors land from airspace, locates and eventually destroys," he said.

The missiles deal will lead to a development of Mectron's production chain, Minister Jobim said. To deliver the 100 missiles to Pakistan, the small company will increase its production capacity fivefold.


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## asaad-ul-islam

guys, great news! Usman Shabbir said the missile deal includes *full ToT*!

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## Tikuna

I bring to you some informations about MAR-1.

---------------------


BRAZILIAN AIR FORCE
Air-Surface Missile Anti-Radiation MAR-1




MÍSSIL MAR-1


Missel MAR-1 surface-Air Anti-Radiation



The MAR-1 missile is a tactical-type air-surface anti-radiation from medium range with passive radar guidance with multi-band option of moving to attack the anti-defense systems based on land or on sea platforms. The MAR-1 will be employed in the context of the civil war electronics Removal of Enemy Air Defense.

The anti-missile radar limitation has to be purchased and overall FAB is developing the MAR-1 with the CTA and Mectron since 1998. After you fired the missile climbs to 10 thousand feet and begins to scan the area of the target before diving. The engine will have 2 stages and reach about 25 kilometers when launched from an altitude of 10,000 meters, and reached a speed of Mach 0.5 to Mach 1.2. The missile can be programmed with points of reference. The RWR of AMX can be used to detect targets assuming a mode of self-defense. The fins of control are in the middle of the missile.



AMX endowed with the Missel MAR-1



Range:
25,000 m in altitude of 10.000m
Speed of launch: Mach 0.5 to Mach 1.2
Angle of presentation: lateral lobes of the radar antenna detected
Angle of sight: 60 °


Characteristics

Overall length (mm) 4030
Diameter (mm) 230
Total weight (kg) 274
Guiding: Passive
Active Laser 89
Head-of-war (kg): 90


Similar missiles:

Shrike (North American)
Standard Harm (North American)
Alarm (English)
Armata (French)

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## Tikuna

The development of anti-missile radar MAR-1 allowed the weapon currently has six September ups or modes of operation available for employees, chargeable to the FAB define which of them will be incorporated in the final version of the missile.

The most common are the targets of held autonomous search by the missile, which automatically identifies all electromagnetic emissions in the area of operations, classifying them into friends or enemies, and presenting them to the pilot, for the selection of a target; or to search for a specific target, selected among those existing in a large existing library in memory of the missile, updateable at any time.

The MAR-1 also has the ability to continue in attack on the target, even if it ceases its emissions. "We can identify a target using satellites to make a triangulation of your position, which then relay the information via data-link to the aircraft, which feeds the data into the missile.

But therein lies the question: who in Latin America or in Africa, our potential markets, has this technology for network-centric warfare? It does no good to put a missile capability in which no one will use. It will only cost the gun and decreases your chances of export "- says one of the engineers Mectron.

Asked if the gun has GPS system to ensure accuracy in the final attack, or if it has the parachute system to be used in the mode of attack against targets of opportunity, as the British ALARM, the company said that these figures are still secret. "What we can say is that the MAR-1 is a weapon of 350 kg, full of capabilities and does not look anything like the duty to any foreigner, overcoming inclusive, some of them. When the missile come into operation in the FAB and its capabilities are being developed, I'm sure that everyone is extremely proud of the exceptional weapon that building "- says an official of the company.

The scope that had been circulated in the press, which gave figures of 25 km for a launch to 30 thousand feet, the Mectron informs: "list is completely out of reality, are aerodynamic data from a study that were not updated. The current scope, demonstrated in tests, it is much, but much larger than this, and we will improve it further. To take an idea, recently make a test with a new engine that was so powerful it melted the mouthpiece of exhaustion and the rear portion of the missile, meaning that we had to redesign everything. Now, a real number set and I can not provide. It is confidential. "

The development has suffered various difficulties such as lack of national platform girométrica (navigation system direction of the gun) while seeking the target systems, this system has suffered embargoes while trying to purchase foreign forcing the technicians to develop the product in the country, starting from scratch, developed a block girométrico the miniaturized optical fiber with 3 orthogonal axes providing the central processing of weapon that the necessary information together with the accelerometer guarantee the accuracy of the equipment. The same occurred with the head of the search missile that when the Brazilian government tried to buy an American supplier, purchase that was clearly blocked by the U.S. government because "it is not interesting for the American defense Brazil introduce anti-radiation weapons in this region "Forcing the CTA to develop locally the head of search. The results achieved in tests and simulations was the head of that search is able to detect a low-power radar (a director of Skyguard shot) at distances over 500 km. The CTA used aircraft division HS 123 of the test flight simulators and emission TS 100 systems plus the Excalibur (05 to 18 GHZ).

Possible features (Wikipedia)

Characteristics

Reach More than 35 km to 30 000 feet.
Speed of Mach 0.5 to Mach Release 1.2
Lóbulos side angle of presentation of the radar antenna detected
60 ° angle of sight
Total length 4030 mm
Diameter 230 mm
Total weight 274 kg
Head of War 90 Kg
Guiding Passive
Fuze Active Laser

Manufacturer Mectron Industry and Trade

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## Imran Khan

welcome tikuna on defence pk bro its nice to see our new friend please introduce your self.


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## Tikuna

Recently the FAB and Mectron performed the launch of the final version of the missile and its power more than 70km. 
Another detail is that entries were made by two missiles in the presence of Pakistani soldiers, belonging to a FAB and the other Mectron. Excellent buy, just hope that India will not complain too much.

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## shehbazi2001

Tikuna said:


> I bring to you some informations about MAR-1.
> 
> 
> The fins of control are in the middle of the missile.




Thanks for your post. But the control fins are the ones at the rear. The fins at the middle are for generating lift and can be called middle wings. These middle fins are fixed.

Overall it was much needed capability. Without ARM, the whole mission of SEAD/DEAD is almost impossible.


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## HAIDER

According to my magic ball info purpose of this sale is reverse engineering . Few will go China and remaining will go in Pak Defence Lab. In few months will see better and smarter one in market...lolzz. Thats why bought only 100

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## HAIDER

double post


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## Tikuna

HAIDER said:


> According to my magic ball info purpose of this sale is reverse engineering . Few will go China and remaining will go in Pak Defence Lab. In few months will see better and smarter one in market...lolzz. Thats why bought only 100




I have this feeling too!!! but they needed sales to facilitate things for Mectron, since our government does not perform major purchases of military equipment.


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## Tikuna

Amid the crisis in Asia, Brazil sells missiles to Islamabad

For Jobim, veto operation would accuse government of Pakistani terrorism; business with Mectron will guarantee the Bank of Brazil

Wisper CANTANHÊDE

SPEAKER OF THE LEAF

Iurie DANTAS

THE BRANCH OF BRASILIA

IGOR Gielow

SECRETARY OF EDITORIAL

THE BRANCH OF BRASILIA

Turning off the diplomatic tension between India and Pakistan because of the attacks that caused 172 deaths in Mumbai, Brazil yesterday granted an export credit insurance for a hundred missiles produced by Sao Paulo Mectron Pakistani government to equip their planes for battle.

The Embassy of India has not issued any opinion on the case, but sent representatives to the Foreign Ministry to consult the Brazilian government on the decision. The Indian ambassador was in Rio and was informed by telephone.

The contract is 85 million, and demanded that Islamabad joined the Brazilian government as "guarantor" of financial and political business, which has dragged for over a year, the signing of the Memorandum of Understanding between Mectron, Pakistan and Brazilian Air Force had occurred in April. The financial guarantee, an insurance credit of 25 million will be given by the Bank of Brazil.

The decision was taken at an extraordinary meeting of Camex (Board of Foreign Trade) yesterday, convened by Defense Minister Nelson Jobim. Two of the participants questioned the decision politically at a time when India accused Pakistan of involvement, albeit indirect, with the attacks.

The two countries, nuclear powers have already been to war three times since it split in 1947, with the independence of the British Empire.

The Minister Paulo Bernardo (Planning) asked the Jobim: "Very good, but geopolitics and the question?"

Then the secretary-general of Foreign Affairs, Ambassador Samuel Pinheiro Guimaraes, said he feared internal and external reactions to the decision at this time. "I am very worried," he said at the meeting, according to reports heard by the film.

Given the questions, Jobim said that the negotiation is between countries. "The deal is with the Pakistani government, not with terrorists in Pakistan. Cancelássemos If the deal would be giving the Pakistani government terrorist activities."

Bernardo Guimaraes and agreed and voted in favor. "Really we can not add an element of trial in our decision. Deny, would judge the government of Pakistan," said the diplomat at the meeting in which represented the Chancellor Celso Amorim.

The decision by the Brazilian pressure Pakistan had months, but a coincidence drew the attention of someone who follows the market for weapons: the brokering of the sale was made by the same group that helped the Pakistani government to sell 12 Russian attack helicopters, warships to Brazil last week. The proximity might indicate, according to analysts, a "sealed package" at both ends by intermediaries.

The missiles in question are of the type MAR-1. It is an anti-radiation missile, that is, he captures signals from radar and pursuing the source. The MAR-1 is specified to achieve targets for radar transmitters on land-ie, anti-batteries. He began to be developed in 1998 by the Aeronautics and Mectron and suffered boycott next year in the United States, which vetaram the sale of an antenna of its radar system receiver, considering that would allow the insertion of a new military technology in South America

The solution was a gag nationalized product. It worked, and the missile is already in the process of operational testing. Only the FAB invested about $ 26 million in the project. The MAR-1 was designed to be installed on hunting of the ground attack AMX, but is easily integrated with aircraft like the Mirage Pakistanis.

According to Folha learned, Pakistan will advance part of the contract for the Mectron expand its production capacity. With the advance, the Mectron can produce five missiles per month, compared with only one today. Will not, however, with this batch of products that Pakistan will have some kind of tactical or strategic advantage in a hypothetical war with eternal rival.


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## Neo

Welcome aboard Tikuna, I've moved your post to create your own intro thread.
*Link*


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## Tikuna

Neo said:


> Welcome aboard Tikuna, I've moved your post to create your own intro thread.
> *Link*





Neo,

No problem, I'm cluttering the forum of you with these long posts.

Greetings


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

The Embassy of India has not issued any opinion on the case said:


> Why does India have issues with what Pakistan buy?


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## Neo

Tikuna said:


> Neo,
> 
> No problem, I'm cluttering the forum of you with these long posts.
> 
> Greetings



Threads: 14,206, Posts: 218,516...and rising.... 
I'm sure you'll contribute a lot useful info as Brazil and Pakistan are becoming closer friends.

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## sohailbutt

atmi_chuza said:


> Why does India have issues with what Pakistan buy?



borther, they r simply shaken from the inside, fear can be seen in their eyes, thats why they r doin wut they r doin

remeber 1 thing: "we r muslims, and we donot fear death"

"where as the fear of death always rattles our enemy"

that makes the difference when we r out to defend our people, Nation


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## Tikuna

atmi_chuza said:


> Why does India have issues with what Pakistan buy?



The problem is that Brazil is trading partner of India (BRIC - Brazil, Russia, India and China) and this sale could undermine the relationship between the two countries. But that is nothing, since the United States  sell weapons to the two and dont care if India does not like.

Saludos

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## Neo

Tikuna said:


> The problem is that Brazil is trading partner of India (BRIC - Brazil, Russia, India and China) and this sale could undermine the relationship between the two countries. But that is nothing, since the United States  sell weapons to the two and dont care if India does not like.
> 
> Saludos



It has nothing to do with Brazil, India tradiotionally objects the sale of every single bullit sold to Pakistani armed forces.

Call it a bad old habbit.

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## Tikuna

In Brazil, people say that MAR-1 will be used in FC 1/JF-17 e J-10. Is this true? I thought F-16 will use MAR-1. If Mectron integrate with F-16, this will open a lot of doors to the missil.

Greetings

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## ejaz007

*Brazil to Sell MAR-1 SEAD Missiles to Pakistan*
03-Dec-2008 15:00 EST


Anti-radiation missiles are designed to find, home in on, and destroy enemy air defense radars; they are often carried by specialist aircraft that accompany air strikes to perform the SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) mission. In December 2008, Brazils government approved a $108 million April 2008 contract with Pakistan for 100 of Mectrons MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles. DID sources add that the deal needed the Brazilian governments loan guarantee to become effective. 

In contrast with other Mectron Engenharia missiles, such as the MAA-1 SRAAM or the forthcoming A-Darter partnership, Mectron appears to be working hard to avoid publicity for the MAR-1. The firm would not even acknowledge the missiles existence for many years, and details remain sketchy. Pictures like this one show a MAR-1 that appears to be similar in size to counterparts like Raytheons AGM-88 HARM, and has a reported range of 25 km when launched from an altitude of about 33,000 feet/ 10 km. Testing appears to have ended, and it will equip Brazils upgraded AMX and F-5BR aircraft once it is accepted into service.

The recent massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India has complicated Brazils approval announcement. As attention is drawn to the role Pakistans intelligence agency has played in this and other attacks, Brazils Defense Minister Nelson Jobim has been forced to respond: Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani government. 

Brazils friends in India are already doing that, of course. On the other hand, Brazil needs export customers in order to achieve its national goal of re-building its defense industries. Jobim has been quoted as saying that the deal will allow Mectron to increase its production from 1 missile per month to 5 missiles. A sale to Pakistan, followed by integration into a platform like the Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 lightweight fighter, could also open up a number of new markets for Mectron. Defesa Brazil [Portuguese] | AFP via The Straits Times | Janes re: MAR-1 | Seguranca & Defesa article, incl. details re: MAR-1 [English].


Brazil to Sell MAR-1 SEAD Missiles to Pakistan


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## HAIDER

wise move from Brazil, because expected production of JF17 is 800 fighters and if its part of this planes projected weapon , then in future Brazil will see wider defence contracts with Pakistan China. Nice way to market the missile. For customer it will be complete package.

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## Kharian_Beast

Tikuna said:


> In Brazil, people say that MAR-1 will be used in FC 1/JF-17 e J-10. Is this true? I thought F-16 will use MAR-1. If Mectron integrate with F-16, this will open a lot of doors to the missil.
> 
> Greetings



Actually friend, more doors can be opened through JF-17 for your nation's missile.

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## fatman17

*Brazil selling 100 missiles to Pakistan*


BRASILIA, Brazil (AP) &#8212; Brazil's defense minister says his nation is selling 100 aircraft-borne missiles to Pakistan.

Brazilian officials approved the euro85 million ($107 million) sale of the missiles, which can be installed on jets and used to take out radar installations.

Brazilian news media say Brazil's air force negotiated the sale with Pakistan's government. *The deal needed the approval of Brazil's trade ministry, which signed off on the deal on Tuesday*.

The Brazilian arms maker Mectron will make the missiles.

Brazil has been trying to bolster its defense industry, which was the largest in the developing world 20 years ago. The industry has struggled since the end of the Cold War.

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## Tikuna

Kharian_Beast said:


> Actually friend, more doors can be opened through JF-17 for your nation's missile.



My fear is China close all these doors!!

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## AMX

Ola Tikuna  

Entrei aqui para tirar as dúvidas dos amigos paquistaneses sobre o MAR-1, mas parece que ja está fazendo isso.

Como meu inglês é uma droga, vou ficar so lendo o tópico 

Sorry for the portuguese
_____________________________

More pics of MAR-1


defesabrasil.com/site/images/stories/noticias/mectron/mar-1/corte2.jpg

img212.imageshack.us/img212/9822/rac07hh7.jpg

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## Imran Khan

AMX said:


> Ola Tikuna
> 
> Entrei aqui para tirar as dúvidas dos amigos paquistaneses sobre o MAR-1, mas parece que ja está fazendo isso.
> 
> Como meu inglês é uma droga, vou ficar so lendo o tópico
> 
> Sorry for the portuguese
> _____________________________
> 
> More pics of MAR-1
> 
> 
> defesabrasil.com/site/images/stories/noticias/mectron/mar-1/corte2.jpg
> 
> img212.imageshack.us/img212/9822/rac07hh7.jpg




whats this mean bro i am confuse ???????????


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## Keysersoze

imran khan said:


> whats this mean bro i am confuse ???????????



He was talking to his fellow Brazilian person in Portuguese.

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## Imran Khan



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## AMX

Sorry, i was sending a hello for my brazilian friend.


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## Muradk

We tested them back in JAN and then decided to go for it. Remember this deal is a tuff one there is a lot of pressure on BR GOV not to deal with us. So it might or might not go through keep your fingers crossed.

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## shehbazi2001

imran khan said:


> whats this mean bro i am confuse ???????????



Just go to translate.google.com and translate from portugese to english by cutting and pasting the text.


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## Tikuna

Keysersoze said:


> He was talking to his fellow Brazilian person in Portuguese.



I belive AMX can help us to increase the forum with more informations. He is a good guy and a know him from others forum in Brazil and Argentina  Im kiddin, they are good guys!!!. 

Amx,

Use o google para traduzir e fa&#231;a apenas uma revis&#227;o no final, j&#225; d&#225; pro gasto.

Use google tralator and make a review in the end, this will be enough. I belive ours friends from pakistan will tolerate some errors in English.

Greetings

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## Tikuna

Some pics

http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=caldarc7.jpg

http://imageshack.us

http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mar11ux2.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mar12cd2.jpg

http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mar13pb4.jpg

http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mar14is0.jpg

http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rac07hh7kp0.jpg

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## Tikuna

Muradk said:


> We tested them back in JAN and then decided to go for it. Remember this deal is a tuff one there is a lot of pressure on BR GOV not to deal with us. So it might or might not go through keep your fingers crossed.



I really dont belive that Brazillian Gov will cancel the deal, maybe wont have another buy... maybe. The biggest problem will be if Brazil sell the new project MAN-1 (like Harpoon). This wil be a problem, because the India navy is strong and a missil like MAN will threat then. But only will be true in 5 years, until there... let them talk.

Greetings

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## IceCold

Muradk said:


> We tested them back in JAN and then decided to go for it. *Remember this deal is a tuff one there is a lot of pressure on BR GOV not to deal with us. So it might or might not go through keep your fingers crossed*.



It will be an utter disappointment and a failure of our foreign policy and indeed shameful for Pakistan if India wins in getting this deal cancelled.

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## AMX

TIKUNA

I do not see the Pakistan buying the MAN-1. In this in case that they can opt to Chinese missiles, American and European. (mainly the RBS-15F) 



> It will be an to utter disappointment and failure of our foreign policy and indeed shameful will be Pakistan if India wins in getting this deal cancelled.



The Ambassador of India asked for information to the Brazilian chancellery, but I do not see this as a threat to this agreement. 

We are honored and we always fulfill our contracts in the area of defense with technology transfer and Off Sets. The only possibility this agreement was cancelled is the Pakistani Government to give up the purchase.

____________ 

Now saying a little on the MAR-1 and the interest/purchase of the Pakistan on this weapon. 

The reach of the official MAR-1 never was disclosed, but we know for some information that had leaked that it exceeds 25Km very that they appear in some websites. 

During the campaign of homologation of the MAR-1 in 2007 a missile was gone off the 10000 feet made right it a target 80Km. 

The interest of the Pakistan on this weapon is old (when still he was being developed) and the purchase agreement was closed in April of 2008 when official of the Air Force of the Pakistan they had come to Brazil and they had folloied the launching of 2 missiles. 

I wait that this is the first one of some agreements of defense between Brazil and Paquist

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## asaad-ul-islam

AMX said:


> The Ambassador of India asked for information to the Brazilian chancellery, but I do not see this as a threat to this agreement.
> 
> We are honored and we always fulfill our contracts in the area of defense with technology transfer and Off Sets. The only possibility this agreement was cancelled is the Pakistani Government to give up the purchase.


Yes, Brazil is a reliable partner for Pakistan. Usman Shabbir, from PakDef, has already given us the news of the transfer of technology agreement. Already on the first transactions between Brazil and Pakistan, there is technology transfer!

I hope Pakistan can enter a new strategic alliance with Brazil and South Africa. We've already cooperated with South Africa in glide-bombs, missiles, and electronics. I know for a fact Brazil and South Africa have some sort of cooperation in the defense sector, maybe even for the T-darter. This is a good move on Pakistan's part into making inroads into South America, and what may be the re-birth of Brazil's long lost defense industry.

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## Kharian_Beast

I knew transfer of tech was involved, otherwise the deal would have been for a lot more missiles.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Well, ToT or not, as Murad Sahib said, lets keep our fingers crossed and hope Uncle Sam doesn't get up to his usual shenanigans.

I don't necessarily see the Indians as unilaterally derailing this deal, but if the US enters the picture, all bets are off.

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## Kharian_Beast

I don't think that will happen that's just imo.

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## fatman17

AMERICAS, THE 

Date Posted: 04-Dec-2008 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Brazil approves funding for MAR-1 missile sale to Pakistan*

Pedro Paulo Rezende JDW Correspondent - Brasilia

The Brazilian government has approved funding for the sale of 100 Mectron MAR-1 air-to-ground anti-radiation missiles to Pakistan.

Funding for the EUR85 million (USD107.4 million) contract was approved on 2 December by Brazil's foreign trade board.

*According to the Brazilian Minister of Defence Nelson Jobim, this approval was all that was left to fulfil the contract signed between Mectron and the Pakistan Air Force in April*. He added that with this contract, Mectron will increase its monthly production capacity from one missile per month to five. 

*The MAR-1, which began development in 1998, is similar to the US-developed AGM-88 HARM and has a passive radar guidance system with a multiband option to attack land- and sea-based defensive systems*. 

When launched from low altitude, the MAR-1 climbs to 10,000 ft and scans the target area before diving. The engine has two stages, giving the missile a 25 km range when launched from its maximum altitude of 33,000 ft. It can reach a speed of Mach 0.5 to Mach 1.2 and uses eight pre-programmed modes of attack using previous points of reference. 

&#169; 2008 Jane's Information Group

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## Tikuna

Frankly, I do not believe that will occur transfer of 
technology (Seeker and control system).

Greetings

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## fatman17

*He added that with this contract, Mectron will increase its monthly production capacity from one missile per month to five.* 

its only a sale no ToT (or mention of it)


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## asaad-ul-islam

There is ToT involved, probably no mention of it. Usman Shabbir is a reliable source, Janes, DefenseNews, AFM, etc all get info from him. how much of a transfer is not known, most likely it's the seeker Pakistan wants.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

asaad-ul-islam said:


> There is ToT involved, probably no mention of it. Usman Shabbir is a reliable source, Janes, DefenseNews, AFM, etc all get info from him. how much of a transfer is not known, most likely it's the seeker Pakistan wants.



Since the project was a relatively secret one, I don't think they will transfer critical technology like the seeker. Pakistan may be able to license manufacture these in house after the first hundred (or even part of the initial order), with critical components like the seeker still being imported.

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## AMX

I do not know accurately what it will be transferred, but this value is very high for only 100 missiles.

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## asaad-ul-islam

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Since the project was a relatively secret one, I don't think they will transfer critical technology like the seeker. Pakistan may be able to license manufacture these in house after the first hundred (or even part of the initial order), with critical components like the seeker still being imported.


earlier, I rejected ToT as part of the deal due to the secrecy of the project. However, Usman Shabbir is a more reliable source of information than Janes or anything else people read. 

Although this is a secret Brazilian project, one of national interest, they don't have a choice in the matter. there are many things you have to take into account.


Brazil is selling these missiles to Pakistan, although projects such as these contain vital technology, and usually are not sold to other nations. 

Normally, Brazil would have only sold a few years after the success of the project. 

An *export version of the product is more likely to be sold,* instead of the original.

Production costs are high, even for the Brazilians. They need to lower the costs, as discussed in the articles above, to be able to afford their own acquistions. Keep in mind, *Brazil has a very low defense budget*. They must sell a lot of these missiles.

Pakistan WILL not purchase anything unless some sort of tecnology transfer is involved. The only exceptions I can think of are MBDA, SAAB, and any American Defense contractor. Even France gives some technology transfer, it's the norm today.

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## Tikuna

I was talking to a person who accompanied the sale to Pakistan and it ensures that there will be no Tot. He says it is only a sale with support. This guy is a trusted source.

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## Quwa

Tikuna said:


> I was talking to a person who accompanied the sale to Pakistan and it ensures that there will be no Tot. He says it is only a sale with support. This guy is a trusted source.


PakDef's seniors - i.e. Usman Shabbir, pshamim, H Khan, etc, are the men who accompany Pakistani defence planners and high officials...they stand by their earlier comments about Pak Army getting Saab BAMSE, yet no Saab official or any Western analyst will admit or even know. In fact, I remember the huge noise some German people made when Usman, pshamim, etc, said Pakistan will get U214 submarines back in 2005-2006.

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## Munir

The Brazil deal was almost a year ago... Deals with Pakistan are opposite if compared with deals with India. Quiet, good product and well done.

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## blain2

Mark Sien said:


> PakDef's seniors - i.e. Usman Shabbir, pshamim, H Khan, etc, are the men who accompany Pakistani defence planners and high officials...they stand by their earlier comments about Pak Army getting Saab BAMSE, yet no Saab official or any Western analyst will admit or even know. In fact, I remember the huge noise some German people made when Usman, pshamim, etc, said Pakistan will get U214 submarines back in 2005-2006.



Mark,

Although you are right that much of the information from Pakdef folks is on the ball, however I think this time around we are getting the missile off the shelf. Which is not a bad thing considering that PAF has had a back-up option of using the SD-10 with a different seeker for ARM role. I doubt that for an order of 100 HARMs, Brazilians would throw in the ToT for a know-how that has taken many years and quite a bit of money for them. I think they would like to milk it with sales to others beyond Pakistan. Pakistan buying from them is very good marketing for their product. There are quite a few countries who would love to get their hands on this kind of hardware without having to bother with US stipulations on such sales.

Overall win-win even without ToT.

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## blain2

Munir said:


> The Brazil deal was almost a year ago... Deals with Pakistan are opposite if compared with deals with India. Quiet, good product and well done.



I agree and hope that this level of secrecy and confidentiality remains in place. Its better when the other side does not see your capability. This is how its always been for Pakistan (if and when we have been able to help it). The problem is that now there is quite a bit of awareness and nosy folks like ourselves  are always trying to find out whats going on..www makes things easier as many countries are required to disclose military sales due to their laws. 

Over the years, Pakistan has purchased quite a bit of hardware all under the radar. Its best left undisclosed

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## Quwa

blain2 said:


> Mark,
> 
> Although you are right that much of the information from Pakdef folks is on the ball, however I think this time around we are getting the missile off the shelf. Which is not a bad thing considering that PAF has had a back-up option of using the SD-10 with a different seeker for ARM role. I doubt that for an order of 100 HARMs, Brazilians would throw in the ToT for a know-how that has taken many years and quite a bit of money for them. I think they would like to milk it with sales to others beyond Pakistan. Pakistan buying from them is very good marketing for their product. There are quite a few countries who would love to get their hands on this kind of hardware without having to bother with US stipulations on such sales.
> 
> Overall win-win even without ToT.


IMO...when it comes down to sophisticated munitions and weapon-systems, I don't think Pakistan will be willing to export. So whenever I pitch in ToT to things such as A2A missiles or PGBs, I don't expect Pakistan to export such things due to the critical nature of those systems. At the end of the day even our simple JF-17 or old Mirage ROSE could carry those systems and deliver some substantial damage...that has been the centre-goal for Pakistan. So when we think about ToT with regards to Pakistan, in most cases it has little to do with re-export, but more so to ensuring as much technology stays at home and that critical systems can over time be indigenized for maximum security.

Regarding ToT for MAR-1...for all we know it could entail specific cooperation between Mectron and AWC, NESCOM, etc, to assist the latter to develop their own AS-ARM.


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## fatman17

asaad-ul-islam said:


> There is ToT involved, probably no mention of it. *Usman Shabbir is a reliable source, Janes, DefenseNews, AFM, etc all get info from him.* how much of a transfer is not known, most likely it's the seeker Pakistan wants.



oh really! he should start his own pay-per-view www. he stands to make a fortune!!!

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## fatman17

*Brazilian HARM For Pakistan*

December 7, 2008:

Brazil has sold a hundred MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles to Pakistan. The MAR-1 weighs 603 pounds, is 13 feet long and has a max range of 25 kilometers. It has a 200 pound warhead and is used to seek out and destroy air-defense radars. Pakistan paid about $1.1 million for each missile (including training, tech support and spare parts). Top speed of the missile is about a 1,200 kilometers an hour (335 meters a second). At max range, it takes about two minutes to reach a target. More common times would be about a minute. 

The latest version of the U.S. anti-radiation missile, the 800 pound AGM-88D, uses GPS so that the missile, which normally homes in on radar transmissions, can be used to attack targets by location alone. MAR-1 uses a similar system. The AGM-88 moves at high speed (2,200 kilometers an hour, or 36 kilometers a minute) to hit targets 100 kilometers away. This version of the AGM-88 costs less than $100,000 each. The standard version uses more complex sensors which can detect and guide the missile to a wide variety of radar signals. These versions cost about $300,000 each. GPS enables HARM (or the aircraft carrying it) to locate a radar when it is turned on, store the GPS location, then go after the target regardless of whether it is turned on or off. MAR-1 has a target radar sensor that can detect signals up to 500 kilometers away. 

Another recent model of the traditional version, the AGM-88E, uses a more expensive approach to nailing enemy radars that are turned on briefly, and attempts to avoid destruction by quickly turning off power. The missile, also called the Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM), was developed jointly by U.S. and Italian firms. The original AGM-88 has been in use since the 1980s, and the original 1960s anti- radiation missile quickly evolved into what was called HARM (High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile). 

The AGM-88E version defeats the favorite trick of anti-aircraft units, shutting down their radars when they note a HARM is on the way. The AGM-88E remembers where the radar is when it was on, and carries its own high resolution (millimeter wave) radar to make sure it gets the radar. Finally, the AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out. Currently, there are orders for over 2,000 of these missiles from the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, Italy and Germany. Production began last year, on what appears to be an endless line of HARM variants. Many other countries, like Brazil, build anti-radiation missiles, but the capabilities of these missiles varies considerably.

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## Tikuna

I know that nobody here has raised doubts about it, but decided post 
for the curious. 

According to sources, is very close to completion the sale of MAR-1 for 
a European customer, it would finally no doubt about the performance of the missile.

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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> oh really! he should start his own pay-per-view www. he stands to make a fortune!!!



H Khan is mentioned in this article:
Pakistan Spending Falls With Economy - Defense News

H Khan is again mentioned here:
Pakistan Eyes Boost in Transport, Lift - Defense News

Usman Shabbir is mentioned here:
Pakistan Pushes To Improve Missile Strike Capability - Defense News


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## CaptainKidd

Anti-radiation missiles are designed to find, home in on, and destroy enemy air defense radars; they are often carried by specialist aircraft that accompany air strikes to perform the SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) mission. In December 2008, Brazils government approved a $108 million April 2008 contract with Pakistan for 100 of Mectrons MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles. DID sources add that the deal needed the Brazilian governments loan guarantee to become effective.

In contrast with other Mectron Engenharia missiles, such as the MAA-1 SRAAM or the forthcoming A-Darter partnership, Mectron appears to be working hard to avoid publicity for the MAR-1. The firm would not even acknowledge the missiles existence for many years, and details remain sketchy. Pictures like this one show a MAR-1 that appears to be similar in size to counterparts like Raytheons AGM-88 HARM, and has a reported range of 25 km when launched from an altitude of about 33,000 feet/ 10 km. Testing appears to have ended, and it will equip Brazils upgraded AMX and F-5BR aircraft once it is accepted into service.

The recent massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India has complicated Brazils approval announcement. As attention is drawn to the role Pakistans intelligence agency has played in this and other attacks, Brazils Defense Minister Nelson Jobim has been forced to respond: Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani government.

Brazils friends in India are already doing that, of course. On the other hand, Brazil needs export customers in order to achieve its national goal of re-building its defense industries. Jobim has been quoted as saying that the deal will allow Mectron to increase its production from 1 missile per month to 5 missiles. A sale to Pakistan, followed by integration into a platform like the Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 lightweight fighter, could also open up a number of new markets for Mectron.

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## Super Falcon

please provide official link for this deal. why always india ask other countries not to sell arms to pak the asked russia, belgium and now brazil and in future america why russia not ask india are you with us or with america why india is stuck between russian and american does russia dont want more exporters for its arms russia should ask india that if you buy n america arms we dell our arms to pak to balance our loss. what news about darter missile


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## metalfalcon

Thread already exists


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## Super Falcon

so in which fighter jet paf will be usig this


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> H Khan is mentioned in this article:
> Pakistan Spending Falls With Economy - Defense News
> 
> H Khan is again mentioned here:
> Pakistan Eyes Boost in Transport, Lift - Defense News
> 
> Usman Shabbir is mentioned here:
> Pakistan Pushes To Improve Missile Strike Capability - Defense News



my intention was not to degrade or deride these guys! i am sure they have solid info banks / sources!

its all about how we use it to our advantage!


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## fatman17

*A sale to Pakistan, followed by integration into a platform like the Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 lightweight fighter, could also open up a number of new markets for Mectron.*

excellent forward thinking!!!


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## Quwa

Now Pakistan has hard relations with both Denel and Mectron, funny that these two companies are the principle partners of the A-Darter 5th generation WVRAAM. Just note the similarity between JF-17's HMDS (shown during PAF documentary) and Denel Archer:

JF-17 HMDS:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1130/jf17hmdsxg0.jpg

Denel Archer HMDS:
http://www.cumulus.co.za/Images/SfixwingPR.jpg

The advantage of Pakistan joining the A-Darter project is that, regardless of whether the Brazilians or South Africans choose to equip their fighters...fact is no less than 250 JF-17s will use A-Darter.

It'd be sweet if Pakistan also joined the Denel T-Darter ramjet BVRAAM project:
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=125147&postcount=1

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## XYON

Mark Sien said:


> Now Pakistan has hard relations with both Denel and Mectron, funny that these two companies are the principle partners of the A-Darter 5th generation WVRAAM. Just note the similarity between JF-17's HMDS (shown during PAF documentary) and Denel Archer:
> 
> JF-17 HMDS:
> http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1130/jf17hmdsxg0.jpg
> 
> Denel Archer HMDS:
> http://www.cumulus.co.za/Images/SfixwingPR.jpg
> 
> The advantage of Pakistan joining the A-Darter project is that, regardless of whether the Brazilians or South Africans choose to equip their fighters...fact is no less than 250 JF-17s will use A-Darter.
> 
> It'd be sweet if Pakistan also joined the Denel T-Darter ramjet BVRAAM project:
> PakDef Forums - View Single Post - The Darter Business - Denel unveils T-Darter



The problem with Denel/ ARMSCOR in particular and South Africa in general is that on one hand they do make good stuff for our defense needs but their Parliamentarian National Committee of Arms Sales is dominated and influenced by Indian-descent South Africans who generally refuse Export License for Pakistan for obvious reasons. recent case-and-point is the blockage of the likely export license for the simple 40mm AGL sale to the Army. Brazilians on the other hand do not have this problem and direct influence of the Indian intelligentsia on their national policy issues. The Indian influense on south African defense equipment sales to Pakistan is also the reason that until to-date South Africa has not been able to sell anything major to the Pakistan defense forces. Therefore, the South Africans are now being looked upon doubtfully by the Pakistan Defense set-up.

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## Myth_buster_1

epool said:


> The problem with Denel/ ARMSCOR in particular and South Africa in general is that on one hand they do make good stuff for our defense needs but their Parliamentarian National Committee of Arms Sales is dominated and influenced by Indian-descent South Africans who generally refuse Export License for Pakistan for obvious reasons. recent case-and-point is the blockage of the likely export license for the simple 40mm AGL sale to the Army. Brazilians on the other hand do not have this problem and direct influence of the Indian intelligentsia on their national policy issues. The Indian influense on south African defense equipment sales to Pakistan is also the reason that until to-date South Africa has not been able to sell anything major to the Pakistan defense forces. Therefore, the South Africans are now being looked upon doubtfully by the Pakistan Defense set-up.



well as for RSA-India relation ship i can tell you that it is no where close to Indian strong hold in US lobby. majority of indian-africans are 10+ generation of muslim indians and they love africa more then they do india. and good thing RSA or brazil has no "JEWS" lobby so we are safe..


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## Super Falcon

rsa is south africa


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## Quwa

epool said:


> The problem with Denel/ ARMSCOR in particular and South Africa in general is that on one hand they do make good stuff for our defense needs but their Parliamentarian National Committee of Arms Sales is dominated and influenced by Indian-descent South Africans who generally refuse Export License for Pakistan for obvious reasons. recent case-and-point is the blockage of the likely export license for the simple 40mm AGL sale to the Army. Brazilians on the other hand do not have this problem and direct influence of the Indian intelligentsia on their national policy issues. The Indian influense on south African defense equipment sales to Pakistan is also the reason that until to-date South Africa has not been able to sell anything major to the Pakistan defense forces. Therefore, the South Africans are now being looked upon doubtfully by the Pakistan Defense set-up.


According to you, Brazil would be as much of an issue as South Africa when it comes to Indian pressure. Forget 10th generation Africans of Indian descent - many of them Muslim and quite neutral based on my professional and academic experience BTW - but India has hard commercial deals with Brazil. In fact, in terms of defence relations India has much better relations with Brazil than Pakistan does. 

I think this issue of raising India in every topic is pointless and weak. The Indians didn't scare the French from offering the Marlin to Pakistan; the Indians failed block $9bn U.S. worth of arms from U.S. to Pakistan; the Indo-Israeli nexus didn't do much in Germany and Sweden; the Indian FTA with Turkey didn't stop Aselsan, Yonca, etc. For God's sake this is ridiculous, I have shown the visible results of RSA-Pak relationship in the images above...in fact they may even be helping with our Mirage upgrades nowadays on top of the fact that they can show their faces at IDEAS 2006 & 2008 and openly answer questions regarding their missile offers to the Pak Forces.

As for those African Indians...I for one can tell you that several of our own military officers whose parents are of that background.

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## Kharian_Beast

Money knows no boundaries gentleman.

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## maximus

^^ Absolutely. At the end of the day, it's all about the money.


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## maximus

epool said:


> The problem with Denel/ ARMSCOR in particular and South Africa in general is that on one hand they do make good stuff for our defense needs but their Parliamentarian National Committee of Arms Sales is dominated and influenced by Indian-descent South Africans who generally refuse Export License for Pakistan for obvious reasons. recent case-and-point is the blockage of the likely export license for the simple 40mm AGL sale to the Army. Brazilians on the other hand do not have this problem and direct influence of the Indian intelligentsia on their national policy issues. *The Indian influense on south African defense equipment sales to Pakistan is also the reason that until to-date South Africa has not been able to sell anything major to the Pakistan defense forces.* Therefore, the South Africans are now being looked upon doubtfully by the Pakistan Defense set-up.



I wonder what other *major* defence equipment we can purchase from RSA apart from helos and missiles? RSA hasn't got much else to offer. As far as those two items are concerned, Pakistan has shown willingness and is still in the process of decision making. RSA has also made no objections and in fact already showcased their goodies in Pakistan. Besides, defence deals require time. Just look at the Indian MRCA tender... Indian pressure is just totally misplaced. India has zero influence on RSA.

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## Kharian_Beast

maximus said:


> I wonder what other *major* defence equipment we can purchase from RSA apart from helos and missiles? RSA hasn't got much else to offer. As far as those two items are concerned, Pakistan has shown willingness and is still in the process of decision making. RSA has also made no objections and in fact already showcased their goodies in Pakistan. Besides, defence deals require time. Just look at the Indian MRCA tender... Indian pressure is just totally misplaced. India has zero influence on RSA.



No doubt the best they have to offer is already being closely examined. I am also a fan of the G6 self propelled howitzer.

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## XYON

maximus said:


> I wonder what other *major* defence equipment we can purchase from RSA apart from helos and missiles? RSA hasn't got much else to offer. As far as those two items are concerned, Pakistan has shown willingness and is still in the process of decision making. RSA has also made no objections and in fact already showcased their goodies in Pakistan. Besides, defense deals require time. Just look at the Indian MRCA tender... Indian pressure is just totally misplaced. India has zero influence on RSA.



South Africa manufactures a lot of major stuff that is useful to Pakistan. For starters, once of the major on-going deals is the G6 Self-Propelled Howitzer as indicated by Kharian_Beast! In the past we have also tried to acquire 140mm G2 ammunition from them but owing to the Commonwealth embargo, the permissions were not granted. India was most active, after UK in having the Commonwealth embargo apply on Pakistan. RSA most certainly has an Indian lobby and a big one at that, and it looks after the interest of India when the time comes to sell to Pakistan. Showcasing goodies at IDEAS 2008 does not amplify the actual problems with politics in RSA. Of course the manufacturers want to sell and we want to buy, but realistically speaking we have not yet achieved a trustworthy relationship with RSA in defense equipment. Yes they also did the air-air refueling for the Mirages and have done some minor projects with AWC from time to time.

The purchase of G-6 Howitzer by the Pakistan Army, if allowed by the RSA will be the real test of RSA neutrality in such sales. Let us see.

And Mark Sien, you are right to the point that India is not that influential to obstruct every defense deal that Pakistan makes but they most certainly try their best in every way to block at whatever level that they can. Case-and-Point is the request for information by the Indian Chancery in Brazil to the Brazil Government on details of the missile deal with Pakistan. Now what is the business of Indians poking their nose in such matters if they are not intrusive? Trust me we are not superstitious about Indian interference, its just the way it is! Russian reluctance to sell Mi-35 gunships to Pakistan is another example of Indian negative influence!

Indeed at the end of the day its about money and who is willing to spend it the most to do what has to be done!

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## Quwa

> And Mark Sien, you are right to the point that India is not that influential to obstruct every defense deal that Pakistan makes but they most certainly try their best in every way to block at whatever level that they can. Case-and-Point is the request for information by the Indian Chancery in Brazil to the Brazil Government on details of the missile deal with Pakistan. Now what is the business of Indians poking their nose in such matters if they are not intrusive? Trust me we are not superstitious about Indian interference, its just the way it is! Russian reluctance to sell Mi-35 gunships to Pakistan is another example of Indian negative influence!


I don't think it matters, India doesn't even need to go public with its requests...if it's commercial ties were critical, then this is a non-issue. I think this whole business of blocking other deals with commercial clout is a limited. With the case of Russia, much of their blockage really occurs under the table, and simply the Russians tell Pakistan to look elsewhere before we can even ask. However looking at South Africa, the fact is that they're making a commercial effort through events such as IDEAS, and appear to be assisting Pakistan under the table - i.e. JF-17's HMDS. 

We have to ask ourselves...what is RSA trying to gain by siding with India? Greater legitimacy to democracy? U.S., Germany and Sweden don't care. Commercial ties perhaps? Well Pakistan is building itself to become a commercial hub and transit to China and Central Asia...whether it happens in this decade or in a couple of decades, it is an approaching fact. Let's bar Gwadar and economics, we know that many JF-17s are to be produced, and if RSA wants to play rough - then we can double the coin when others want to equip this fighter. Behind Pakistan is the fact that China too is looking to develop its weapon-systems, for all we know - especially after seeing PL-ASR - that there's some unknown multi-lateral cooperation. 

Even India's influence in Russia is starting to wane.

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## maximus

epool said:


> South Africa manufactures a lot of major stuff that is useful to Pakistan. For starters, once of the major on-going deals is the G6 Self-Propelled Howitzer as indicated by Kharian_Beast! In the past we have also tried to acquire 140mm G2 ammunition from them but owing to the Commonwealth embargo, the permissions were not granted. India was most active, after UK in having the Commonwealth embargo apply on Pakistan. RSA most certainly has an Indian lobby and a big one at that, and it looks after the interest of India when the time comes to sell to Pakistan. Showcasing goodies at IDEAS 2008 does not amplify the actual problems with politics in RSA. Of course the manufacturers want to sell and we want to buy, but realistically speaking we have not yet achieved a trustworthy relationship with RSA in defense equipment. Yes they also did the air-air refueling for the Mirages and have done some minor projects with AWC from time to time.
> 
> The purchase of G-6 Howitzer by the Pakistan Army, if allowed by the RSA will be the real test of RSA neutrality in such sales. Let us see.
> 
> And Mark Sien, you are right to the point that India is not that influential to obstruct every defense deal that Pakistan makes but they most certainly try their best in every way to block at whatever level that they can. Case-and-Point is the request for information by the Indian Chancery in Brazil to the Brazil Government on details of the missile deal with Pakistan. Now what is the business of Indians poking their nose in such matters if they are not intrusive? Trust me we are not superstitious about Indian interference, its just the way it is! Russian reluctance to sell Mi-35 gunships to Pakistan is another example of Indian negative influence!
> 
> Indeed at the end of the day its about money and who is willing to spend it the most to do what has to be done!



Beg to differ. I don't believe that India has much influence over RSA. We have already witnessed Indian humiliation in the Russian engine deal. They couldn't even prevent their major weapons supplier to halt the deal. It's money that talks. Whether RSA is reluctant for whatever odd reason is another issue all together. I'm positive that the missile deal will go through if PAF decides to go for it. I agree that the Indians have a bad habit of indulging in Pakistani matters. It's ironic to say the least, considering the Indians always boast about their superiority etc.

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## XYON

Mark Sien said:


> I don't think it matters, India doesn't even need to go public with its requests...if it's commercial ties were critical, then this is a non-issue. I think this whole business of blocking other deals with commercial clout is a limited. *With the case of Russia, much of their blockage really occurs under the table, and simply the Russians tell Pakistan to look elsewhere before we can even ask.* However looking at South Africa, the fact is that they're making a commercial effort through events such as IDEAS, and appear to be assisting Pakistan under the table - i.e. JF-17's HMDS.
> 
> We have to ask ourselves...what is RSA trying to gain by siding with India? Greater legitimacy to democracy? U.S., Germany and Sweden don't care. Commercial ties perhaps? Well Pakistan is building itself to become a commercial hub and transit to China and Central Asia...whether it happens in this decade or in a couple of decades, it is an approaching fact. Let's bar Gwadar and economics, we know that many JF-17s are to be produced, and if RSA wants to play rough - then we can double the coin when others want to equip this fighter. Behind Pakistan is the fact that China too is looking to develop its weapon-systems, for all we know - especially after seeing PL-ASR - that there's some unknown multi-lateral cooperation.
> 
> *Even India's influence in Russia is starting to wane*.



First, I am glad that you have also accepted that 'influences' are there whether over or under the table! Secondly, defense deals are carried out in a fixed time frame, influences if any are only judged in that fixed bracket of the validity of that deal. The only way to negate any unwanted influence is to continue over a period of time to market your products to the customer and really and at the end of the day hope for the best.


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## XYON

sorry for the duplication! pressed the submit button twice! my bad


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## XYON

maximus said:


> Beg to differ. I don't believe that India has much influence over RSA. We have already witnessed Indian humiliation in the Russian engine deal. It's money that talks. Whether RSA is reluctant for whatever odd reason is another issue all together. I'm positive that the missile deal will go through if PAF decides to go for it. I agree that the Indians have a bad habit of indulging in Pakistani matters. It's ironic to say the least, considering the Indians always boast about their superiority etc.



I respect your opinion but let us wait and see where does the G6 deal end up. I can most certainly tell you however that South Africans have so far not approved the Export License to sell the Denel 40mm AGL to Pak Army and that is a very minor item compared to the G6.

Taste of the pudding lies in the eating, we have just ordered the pudding from the RSA menu, lets see if the kitchen delivers!

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## maximus

epool said:


> I respect your opinion but let us wait and see where does the G6 deal end up. I can most certainly tell you however that South Africans have so far not approved the Export License to sell the Denel 40mm AGL to Pak Army and that is a very minor item compared to the G6.
> 
> Taste of the pudding lies in the eating, we have just ordered the pudding from the RSA menu, lets see if the kitchen delivers!



I agree. It would be too premature to jump the gun. Time will tell whether a healthy defence relation between Pakistan and RSA can prosper. I'm quite optimistic.

The Brazilian missile deal is a good one though! The seeker is priceless and Pakistan can tweak the range of the missile which already has a respective 75km range. Perhaps even integrate the seeker into Ra'ad and other missiles. Another piece of weaponry that can be mounted to the JF-17 for SEAD missions!


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## maximus

Kharian_Beast said:


> No doubt the best they have to offer is already being closely examined. I am also a fan of the G6 self propelled howitzer.



That's true. Having the G6 in Pakistani inventory would be something. That would really give some fire-power to PA.

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## Quwa

epool said:


> I respect your opinion but let us wait and see where does the G6 deal end up. I can most certainly tell you however that South Africans have so far not approved the Export License to sell the Denel 40mm AGL to Pak Army and that is a very minor item compared to the G6.
> 
> Taste of the pudding lies in the eating, we have just ordered the pudding from the RSA menu, lets see if the kitchen delivers!


epool: I respect your opinion and have enjoyed the discussion, but one question...is PA discussing G6 with RSA? Noticed that it is a wheeled machine, its use implies rapid mobility and use against irregulars in FATA & W.Border? Any plans for ultra-lightweight field artillery systems similar to the M777 (or this system itself)? After the news regarding the PA wishing to raise an Airborne force, it sounds to me specialized artillery will join this Western Border force? Any news on new types of armor - i.e. special counterinsurgency tanks based on Al Khalid?

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## Kharian_Beast

maximus said:


> That's true. Having the G6 in Pakistani inventory would be something. That would really give some fire-power to PA.



Yes they are beasts of a machine, I saw one up close a few years ago in Capetown, fearsome presence no doubt.

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## m15t3r7

maximus said:


> That's true. Having the G6 in Pakistani inventory would be something. That would really give some fire-power to PA.



how many G6 is Pakistan gonna buy?????????
and how many is a good number to have???


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## rubyjackass

imran khan said:


> Brazil to sell 100 missiles to Pakistan
> 
> BRAZILIAN authorities gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking instalations, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said.
> 
> The MAR-1 medium-range missiles made by the Brazilian firm Mectron are tactical anti-radiation weapons whose existence was kept under wraps for many years, according to Jane's Information Group.
> 
> Mr Jobim called them "very effective ways to monitor" areas flown by war planes, and said the deal with Pakistan, originally signed in April this year, was worth 85 million ($167.6 million).
> 
> He dismissed suggestions that the transaction might be questioned in light of last week's Islamist extremist massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India, which some Indian officials suspected was launched from within Pakistan.
> 
> "Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists," Mr Jobim said.
> 
> "To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani Government
> 
> looks nice bro



cool pics...

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## skybolt




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## Tomahawk

Another pic of MAR-1


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## Super Falcon

is it is a air to air or air to ground


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## XYON

Mark Sien said:


> epool: I respect your opinion and have enjoyed the discussion, but one question...is PA discussing G6 with RSA? Noticed that it is a wheeled machine, its use implies rapid mobility and use against irregulars in FATA & W.Border? Any plans for ultra-lightweight field artillery systems similar to the M777 (or this system itself)? After the news regarding the PA wishing to raise an Airborne force, it sounds to me specialized artillery will join this Western Border force? Any news on new types of armor - i.e. special counterinsurgency tanks based on Al Khalid?



PA has been wanting a good long range artillery platform for a very long time. In the past they have tested the 155mm VAMAS Howitzer from Finland. Until recently they are favorably looking at the G6 due to its 'shoot & scoot' ability & due its high reliability in 'hot & high' conditions! Lessons have been learnt during the Kargil episode and PA has revised its ORBAT to include wheeled artillery such as the G6. They have also been gifted a Turkish 155mm light howitzer (capable of heli lift) like the M777 which is currently under test and trials. Therefore, if at all Pakistan goes for light howitzer's it would be from Turkey for obvious reasons. 

Personally I am not aware of any AIRBORNE FORCE being raised by the Army. But a RAPID REACTION FORCE, yes consisting of Special Forces elements, light artillery & upgraded infantry with IFV's , most likely yes! Again lessons learnt from the war on terror at our western borders!

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## fatman17

epool said:


> PA has been wanting a good long range artillery platform for a very long time. In the past they have tested the 155mm VAMAS Howitzer from Finland. Until recently they are favorably looking at the G6 due to its 'shoot & scoot' ability & due its high reliability in 'hot & high' conditions! Lessons have been learnt during the Kargil episode and PA has revised its ORBAT to include wheeled artillery such as the G6. They have also been *gifted a Turkish 155mm light howitzer (capable of heli lift) like the M777 which is currently under test and trials. *Therefore, if at all Pakistan goes for light howitzer's it would be from Turkey for obvious reasons.
> 
> Personally I am not aware of any AIRBORNE FORCE being raised by the Army. But a RAPID REACTION FORCE, yes consisting of Special Forces elements, light artillery & upgraded infantry with IFV's , most likely yes! Again lessons learnt from the war on terror at our western borders!



PANTER 155mm Light Howitzer!

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## Tomahawk

Super Falcon said:


> is it is a air to air or air to ground



Its an air to ground anti-radiation missile, its is used in SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) operations; to destroy enemy air defence radars. Range is 25 km.


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## Super Falcon

thanks for your kind information mate why not we buy some heavy duty howitzer from china or from sweeden


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## XYON

Super Falcon said:


> thanks for your kind information mate why not we buy some heavy duty howitzer from china or from sweeden



PA is looking for a wheeled 155mm Howitzer which China and Sweden do not make. Otherwise, the 155mm Howitzer is now being made by Singapore, China, Sweden, Finland, Turkey, US, UK etc. But they all are mainly towed or heli-lift type guns. The Germans are in process of testing the wheeled type 155mm Howitzer but its finalization and likely induction into the German Army is long way off! The G-6 is already in service with the RSA.

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## Tikuna

* MAR-1's Mectron to Pakistan*

A new front has been opened to export two weeks ago when Brazil announced the closing of a contract with Pakistan for the supply to that country in Asia, a hundred anti-radiation missiles MAAR-1 manufactured by the company MECTRON Paulista, in collaboration with the CTA (General Command of Aerospace Technology).
The negotiations that had already started a few months ago was completed in late November, after being assured alongside the export financing system
The weapon has a range estimated between 40km and 50km and it is intended to attack the enemy radar systems, especially the radar systems of anti-aircraft defense.This acquisition takes place by the Pakistanis some time after India's announcement of the acquisition of the defense system of anti-air Spyder, which uses both the Python and Derby missiles, manufactured in Israel.
The Pakistani option, when it was known the Indian claim to acquire the Spyder system, leads to the conclusion that the industry has been successful MECTRON produce a system that can be effective in the presence of radar systems ELTA EL/M-2106 Israelis.The maximum range of missiles Derby (the Spyder system uses two different types of missiles) is estimated at 60km. To get a weapon recently sold to Pakistan, although no concrete data are available, it is possible that the Pakistanis have opted for the Brazilian system, for having found capable of canceling the Israeli system, along with the radar of the oldest systems manufacturing as the Russian SA-8 'Gecko' and SA-6 "Akash" adapted locally.

*Copy of Shrike*

Allegedly the Brazilian missile is a development of missile AGM-48 'Shrike' which was obtained by Brazil in 1982 during the Falklands War. A Vulcan bomber, was forced to make an emergency aterrisagem in Rio de Janeiro and its interior followed such missiles, which the British were using to attack air defense radars Argentines.The Great Britain protested at the time, but the missile did not actually be returned.
However, although the characteristics of the Brazilian system are not known, we can consider the purchase, taking into consideration that against this type of missile systems should be used.The MAAR-1, can - for example - set the final location of the target, even if the enemy radar system is turned off (tactic used by the Argentines in 1982)

Economic situation in Pakistan

The fact that the missile system had been exported to Pakistan, causes some problems because that country is facing a severe economic crisis, which prompted the government to seek the support of the IMF.
The sale was released with Brazilian finance.She is however considered strategic because few countries are developed (copied or not) ability to produce such equipment.

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## Super Falcon

is spyder missile is more superior than brazillian missile system


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## Tomahawk

Super Falcon said:


> is spyder missile is more superior than brazillian missile system



Here is a pic of Spyder Missile System

The Two Missiles in the center are Python 5 and the two on the outside are Derby Missiles.

The Surface-to-Air Python & Derby Air Defense System (SPYDER) is a quick reaction, low level missile system designed to successfully counter attacks by fixed and rotary wing aircraft, missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). It can launch both Derby medium range active radar seeker missile and Python 5 advanced dual waveband IR short range missile.

The SPYDER provides highly deployable air defense capability covering 360° during day, night and adverse weather conditions engaging multiple threats simultaneously. It features two engagement modes: Lock-On-Before Launch (LOBL) (fire and forget capability) and Lock-On-After Launch (LOAL) (fire and update capability).

The SPYDER can engage targets from 1 to 15 kilometers flying at altitudes between 20 and 9,000 meters. It is suitable for high value assets defense as well as to provide area air defense to front-line military units.

A typical SPYDER squadron consists of one mobile command and control unit (CCU) and four mobile firing units (MFU). The CCU carries Elta EL/M 2106 ATAR 3D surveillance radar which can simultaneously track up to 60 targets.


Now MAR-1 is an anti-radiation missile, whose primary fuction is to destroy the enemy's air defence radar. Im sure PAF must have selected the MAR-1 taking into account the pros & cons. I mean for a system like Spyder it would not be easy to tackle MAR-1, systems like spyder can efficiently tackle the ordinary air to ground missile, and that is the reason for having an anti-radiation missile like MAR-1 so that they can clean out the enemy's air defence system, because in war-time once the air defence radars are wiped out in any particular area then it would be much easiar for PAF to perform a special mission of destroying the enemy's high valued ground facilities (air to ground missions) in that particular area.

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## Kharian_Beast

Super Falcon said:


> is spyder missile is more superior than brazillian missile system



I think you are confusing the missiles. Spyder is used for air defense to protect ground assets against missiles and aircraft up to 15 kilometers away and 9k meters in the air. MAR 1 can be shot from 50 km away and take out vital radars and installations, leaving holes in ad coverage all over enemy territory. This missile pretty much can be configured to take out anything with a radar on the ground, and Spyder system uses radar.

The real question is *when *does delivery take place?


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## wartibet

Brass air fittings
Now that is kkkkkkkkkk


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## Super Falcon

thanx for correcting me does israel sold it too india


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## phoenix80

well the MAR-1 deal was certainly a surprise to India in terms of Brazil providing to a "hostile" country keeping in view the close defence cooperation in R&D between the two. But its nothing to be ruffled over.

MAR-1 is the Brazilian version of AGM-45 Shrike (used till 1992 by US and thereafter by Israel ONLY). It was an offshoot development from a recovered Shrike from RAF Vulcan during Falkland war which was damaged. The only added feature is that it has memory for remembering location of radars after they have switched off. So it tends to home in nevertheless. Its main negative point is that of range - reportedly 25 kms.

India Stunned as Brazil Sells 100 Advanced Air-to-Surface Missiles to Pakistan | India Defence

The IAF is using Kh-31A and Kh-31P which are licensed produced locally with ranges of 70-110 kms (both at either spectrum of range). 

Kh-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, the ARM purchased does tend to put Indian fixed AD sites into jeopardy ... especially the older variants. The mobile ones are difficult to kill due to mobility.

As for acquisition and induction of Spyder by IA and IAF and MAR-1 by PAF ... it is about getting lucky. The systems are mobile and as such after painting the incoming AC, the radar can be switched off leaving missiles with built in active Radar (Derby) and Infra-Red Seekers (Pyhton) to fend for their selves. In that case the option of attacking pilot is to protect self as the ARM will seek out incoming active radar of Derby and NOT the main radar. Its a match of chances. I dont think MAR-1 significantly enhances PAF abilities as claimed. The only thing is no one else was willing to offer PAF ARM missiles and india was rudely surprised by Brazilian act. Its not a threat of great import. Posting a site showing the Spyder system on TATRA vehicle. Its the Indian configuration although not said so at the site

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/area.aspx?FolderID=186&docID=704

SPYDER Surface-to-Air Python 5 and Derby Air Defence Missile System - Army Technology


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## roopesh

is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)


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## phoenix80

I have posted the sites as the discussion has been over MAR-1 and its abilities and of Spyder system. Thought out discussion would be welcome based on facts and not jingoism please.


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## phoenix80

roopesh said:


> is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)



roopesh, the missile is an attempt by Brazil to secure a place in defence market. the delivery will be an interesting issue as India has been known to scuttle previous contracts of Pakistan. The fact that India intends to induct upto 12 new Embrarer based AEWs offhand which is minimum 20 times the present deal, can be great temptation for Brazil to back out from its obligation. Its something like spiking french offers to pakistan by using Civil Aircraft deal. The Agosta sub deal went thru only post award of contract to Boeing.


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## phoenix80

roopesh said:


> is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)



i infact implore OFB here to supply arms and ammunition to PA ...... our quality is soo good ...... atleast PA can also suffer the consequences


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## Keysersoze

Dude your post seems to show that you do not have a understanding of how ARM work. And their potential targets....which include SAM sites and also "mobile" radars have to stop and set up in order to work...they then give out radiation which the missile homes in on.

Oh for your information PAF already has used the shrike so why would they opt for something only marginally better?

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## shchinese

roopesh said:


> is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)



Pakistan developed its own MBT and modern fighters with China, now Pakistan can modify them or build as many as they want. 

please tell me what MBT/fighter India is using? whether India can do any real big modification to its designs? whether India could freely build as many as possible?


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## phoenix80

Keysersoze said:


> Dude your post seems to show that you do not have a understanding of how ARM work. And their potential targets....which include SAM sites and also "mobile" radars have to stop and set up in order to work...they then give out radiation which the missile homes in on.
> 
> Oh for your information PAF already has used the shrike so why would they opt for something only marginally better?



Perhaps I may not have an understanding of an anti-radiation missile 

An ARM is designed to move against a specific RADAR after pinpointing its locality from the EMP and other Electronic Signatures given out by the same. While the 1st generation ARM was beaten by the radar operators shutting off their radars and the missile losing the homing beacon, the present generation has inertial guidance as also "memory" to recal the location of a radar even inspite of it being swithced off and as such uses the GPS and topographical data obtained from satellite to be guided to its target.

Now Shrike was the 1st generation based missile effective against static and immobile targets ie fixed Radar sites. The MAR-1 is based on improvement in targetting parameters by incorporating IGS and GPS. Now SPYDER is a mobile system based upon ready to use Radars which have to be just switced on to achieve "target painting" and then launching the missiles ie Derby and Python towards the target and one can switch off the primary radar as the former ie Derby has an active RADAR of its own to seek out the AC and Python is on IR so it tracks the heat signature of AC. Now the RADAR operator can at the time of switching off the RADAR also request the driver to drive a bit distance away. Even 10 meters will make a difference in effectively killing a RADAR and damaging it or altogether surviving a counter ARM attack. And that is an SOP in AD units I assure you.

At the same time the pilot will be busy trying to save his own AC as in either case his ARM will be confused by airborne source of radiations viz from Derby's active RADAR and there shall be a change in target to seek and destroy the source. Its the same principle to beat an IR SAM, use of flares to give an alternative source of IR signature. 

Now you mean to elaborate that a RADAR operator in SPYDER which is highly mobile and NOT FIXED STATIC unit, will be so daft as not to move from his location? Its like the shoot and scoot used by arty units to beat the gun locating radars!!!!!

I have conceeded its a threat to static and older versions of SAM batteries but you are way out of league if you think Spyder has danger. Its a battle of chance in this case, lucky if you get a hit.

Now I shall give you a post so that you can see why I am limited by my ability or lack of it to understand why MAR-1 is superior.

Anti-radiation missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its in simplest of forms and I failed. Kindly do help me where I am wrong.


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## phoenix80

shchinese said:


> Pakistan developed its own MBT and modern fighters with China, now Pakistan can modify them or build as many as they want.
> 
> please tell me what MBT/fighter India is using? whether India can do any real big modification to its designs? whether India could freely build as many as possible?



yes I agree and its an achievement. forget using the resources to develop the country, just develop things to destroy it  great policy.

we have to courage to go it alone on projects and trash them. indian missile system is one. we trashed Trishul as it was useless in the end. pakistan just sold nuclear tech to korea to get their missiles. great R&D i must say. And i love the tanks you have ..... yet to be seen in battle ...... though!!! we work in commensurate with our economic growth. go for things you can afford and forget what you cant for now. big deal.


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## Myth_buster_1

phoenix80 said:


> well the MAR-1 deal was certainly a surprise to India in terms of Brazil providing to a "hostile" country keeping in view the close defence cooperation in R&D between the two. But its nothing to be ruffled over.



"Brazil needs export customers in order to achieve its national goal of re-building its defense industries." 
Pakistan apparently is also interested in south africa brazil joint projects such as A-Darter, and ramjet BVR AAM! so why would brazil wanna miss multi 100 million dollars deal with pakistan? mind you India has bigger share in French market be it defence and still it does not stop them from negotiating with pakistan. 




> MAR-1 is the Brazilian version of AGM-45 Shrike (used till 1992 by US and thereafter by Israel ONLY). It was an offshoot development from a recovered Shrike from RAF Vulcan during Falkland war which was damaged. The only added feature is that it has memory for remembering location of radars after they have switched off. So it tends to home in nevertheless. Its main negative point is that of range - reportedly 25 kms.



oh here we go with indian inferiority superiority complexion. AGM-45? lol what a joke. if you wanna compare MAR-1 then AGM-88E should come to mind and pakistani version is a more advance version of what brazil is using with more extended range and more powerful lock on capability. 
dont know why is it first hand reaction of indians to assume all weapons acquired by pakistan are downgraded or some cheap rip off. what a loser mentality. 




> India Stunned as Brazil Sells 100 Advanced Air-to-Surface Missiles to Pakistan | India Defence
> 
> The IAF is using Kh-31A and Kh-31P which are licensed produced locally with ranges of 70-110 kms (both at either spectrum of range).
> 
> Kh-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



that really sucks because the topic is "pak MAR-1 acquisition" not a pi$sing contest. And btw Pakistan already has AGM-88 which can be upgraded.




> However, the ARM purchased does tend to put Indian fixed AD sites into jeopardy ... especially the older variants. The mobile ones are difficult to kill due to mobility.



thats really dumb of you to say. lol 
Anyways, Keysersoze has really summed it up for you in his post.



> As for acquisition and induction of Spyder by IA and IAF and MAR-1 by PAF ... it is about getting lucky. The systems are mobile and as such after painting the incoming AC, the radar can be switched off leaving missiles with built in active Radar (Derby) and Infra-Red Seekers (Pyhton) to fend for their selves. In that case the option of attacking pilot is to protect self as the ARM will seek out incoming active radar of Derby and NOT the main radar. Its a match of chances. I dont think MAR-1 significantly enhances PAF abilities as claimed. The only thing is no one else was willing to offer PAF ARM missiles and india was rudely surprised by Brazilian act. Its not a threat of great import. Posting a site showing the Spyder system on TATRA vehicle. Its the Indian configuration although not said so at the site



whats your point? that india has accesses to super alien technology AD system and no one can penetrate? and you keep bloodily referring MAR-1 to agm-45 which is not even true at all. lol 
The MAR-1 advance version incorporates, "GPS and internal radar technology once detected the missile locks-on and can hit with pinpoint accuracy whether the radar is on or off."
btw here is your sate of super python technology that pretty much failed in georgia-russia war while even a low tech su-25 flew freely in gergian air space and phytons were being fooled by decoys. lol

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## shehbazi2001

phoenix80 said:


> Perhaps I may not have an understanding of an anti-radiation missile
> 
> An ARM is designed to move against a specific RADAR after pinpointing its locality from the EMP and other Electronic Signatures given out by the same. While the 1st generation ARM was beaten by the radar operators shutting off their radars and the missile losing the homing beacon, the present generation has inertial guidance as also "memory" to recal the location of a radar even inspite of it being swithced off and as such uses the GPS and topographical data obtained from satellite to be guided to its target.
> 
> Now Shrike was the 1st generation based missile effective against static and immobile targets ie fixed Radar sites. The MAR-1 is based on improvement in targetting parameters by incorporating IGS and GPS. Now SPYDER is a mobile system based upon ready to use Radars which have to be just switced on to achieve "target painting" and then launching the missiles ie Derby and Python towards the target and one can switch off the primary radar as the former ie Derby has an active RADAR of its own to seek out the AC and Python is on IR so it tracks the heat signature of AC. Now the RADAR operator can at the time of switching off the RADAR also request the driver to drive a bit distance away. Even 10 meters will make a difference in effectively killing a RADAR and damaging it or altogether surviving a counter ARM attack. And that is an SOP in AD units I assure you.
> 
> At the same time the pilot will be busy trying to save his own AC as in either case his ARM will be confused by airborne source of radiations viz from Derby's active RADAR and there shall be a change in target to seek and destroy the source. Its the same principle to beat an IR SAM, use of flares to give an alternative source of IR signature.
> 
> Now you mean to elaborate that a RADAR operator in SPYDER which is highly mobile and NOT FIXED STATIC unit, will be so daft as not to move from his location? Its like the shoot and scoot used by arty units to beat the gun locating radars!!!!!
> 
> I have conceeded its a threat to static and older versions of SAM batteries but you are way out of league if you think Spyder has danger. Its a battle of chance in this case, lucky if you get a hit.
> 
> Now I shall give you a post so that you can see why I am limited by my ability or lack of it to understand why MAR-1 is superior.
> 
> Anti-radiation missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Its in simplest of forms and I failed. Kindly do help me where I am wrong.




Its a far-fetched idea that ARM shall home in on SPYDER instead of its fire-control radar. The parameters of both radars are widely different and this difference is obvious in the scan patterns, frequency bands used, power output, pulse lengths (for pulse radars) etc and the processor of ARM is programmed to recognise various radars through various check parameters.

The ground surveillance radar scans in 360 degrees and even the fire-control radar's main lobe (or main beam) is wider, superior in power output to that of Derby or any missile nose radar because of later's smaller antenna and weaker power supply. Scan patterns are also different. A radar shall scan untill it gets locked on target.

Then comes the trajectories. Trajectories of both missiles are not the same and they may not come even close, not to speak of intercepting each other. ARM may cruise at high altitude and then suddenly dive on its target (one of many possible attack modes of ARM) whereas a SAM usually fires straight to target except may be the S-300 series.

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## fatman17

phoenix80 said:


> roopesh, the missile is an attempt by Brazil to secure a place in defence market. the delivery will be an interesting issue as India has been known to scuttle previous contracts of Pakistan. The fact that India intends to induct upto 12 new Embrarer based AEWs offhand which is minimum 20 times the present deal, can be great temptation for Brazil to back out from its obligation. *Its something like spiking french offers to pakistan by using Civil Aircraft deal.* The Agosta sub deal went thru only post award of contract to Boeing.



if the MAR-1 is inferior as u claim, then why is india "worried" about a miserly 100 missiles and putting so called "pressure" on Brazil to scuttle the contract!!

and please provide examples of french "spiking" potential french-pak deals?

i am waiting!


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## maximus

fatman17 said:


> if the MAR-1 is inferior as u claim, then why is india "worried" about a miserly 100 missiles and putting so called "pressure" on Brazil to scuttle the contract!!
> 
> and please provide examples of french "spiking" potential french-pak deals?
> 
> i am waiting!



Well, to put it mildly, they are stunned!

*Brazil's Sale Of Missiles To Pakistan Surprises India*

The Indian Air Force has taken note of Pakistan&#8217;s latest acquisition of 100 anti-radiation missiles (ARM) from Brazil. The missile is an air-to-surface weapon used for destroying air defence ground radars.

Pakistan bought the missiles from Brazil last month. Brazil&#8217;s decision to go ahead with the deal at the height of tension in the subcontinent has surprised Indian defence experts.

The missile has a maximum range of 25 km and has a 200 pound warhead. Fired from fighter jets, it seeks and destroys air defence radars even when they are deactivated.

Indian officials said that the IAF also has its own ARMs which are capable of meeting the threat. The IAF fighter jets use Russian Kh-31 ARMs with passive homing radar.

These missiles are fitted on top of the line fighter like Su-30 MKI.

Brazil had MAR-1 missiles in late 1999s for its Embraer/ Aermacchi fighters.

There is an interesting tale about the development of the missile which is believed to be a derivative of US AGM-45 Shrike ARM. Shrike ARM was fitted on British Avro Vulcon jets.

During the Falkan waragainst Argentina, a Vulcan developed a snag while returning from a sortie.

Brazilian F-5 fighters escorted the aircraft back.

The Royal Air Force plane landed at a Brazilian airfield and returned after the technical fault was removed.

But the Shrike was held back by the Brazilians. The missile was returned later but not before the Brazilian engineers had taken a &#8220;good look&#8221; at it.

There is a general belief in Brazil that Mar-1 (Missil Anti-Radiacao 1) was developed out of the episode although little is known about its features. It has an autonomous target search and GPS.

Indian officials said the deal signed in December is being closely watched.

It came as a surprise as Brazil has close military relations with India.

The two countries had come closer in recent years as part of the South-South cooperation programme.

New Delhi has a trilateral co-operation arrangement with Brazil and South Africa.

The Indian Air Force had recently purchased Brazilian Embraer executive jets. 

Source: http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/...ID=b7ziAYMenjw=&SectionName=pWehHe7IsSU=&SEO=


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## Myth_buster_1

why the heck do indians keep referring MAR-1 with agm-45? like i have said, it kind of reflects their cheap mentality of assuming everything is downgraded stuff when talking of pakistan. first of all. MAR-1 guidance system is very very different from old SEAD missiles such as Agm-45 and old variant of agm-88. i would rather compare this missile with new HARM variants such as 88D and E. 



AIR WEAPONS: Brazilian HARM For Pakistan
Tuesday, Dec 09, 2008
Brazil has sold a hundred MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles to Pakistan. The MAR-1 weighs 603 pounds, is 13 feet long and has a max range of 25 kilometers. It has a 200 pound warhead and is used to seek out and destroy air-defense radars. Pakistan paid about $1.1 million for each missile (including training, tech support and spare parts). Top speed of the missile is about a 1,200 kilometers an hour (335 meters a second). At max range, it takes about two minutes to reach a target. More common times would be about a minute. 

*The latest version of the U.S. anti-radiation missile, the 800 pound AGM-88D, uses GPS so that the missile, which normally homes in on radar transmissions, can be used to attack targets by location alone. MAR-1 uses a similar system. *The AGM-88 moves at high speed (2,200 kilometers an hour, or 36 kilometers a minute) to hit targets 100 kilometers away. This version of the AGM-88 costs less than $100,000 each. The standard version uses more complex sensors which can detect and guide the missile to a wide variety of radar signals. These versions cost about $300,000 each. GPS enables HARM (or the aircraft carrying it) to locate a radar when it is turned on, store the GPS location, then go after the target regardless of whether it is turned on or off. *MAR-1 has a target radar sensor that can detect signals up to 500 kilometers away. *
Another recent model of the traditional version, the AGM-88E, uses a more expensive approach to nailing enemy radars that are turned on briefly, and attempts to avoid destruction by quickly turning off power. The missile, also called the Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM), was developed jointly by U.S. and Italian firms. The original AGM-88 has been in use since the 1980s, and the original 1960s anti- radiation missile quickly evolved into what was called HARM (High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile). 

The AGM-88E version defeats the favorite trick of anti-aircraft units, shutting down their radars when they note a HARM is on the way. The AGM-88E remembers where the radar is when it was on, and carries its own high resolution (millimeter wave) radar to make sure it gets the radar. Finally, the AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out.


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## Contrarian

fatman17 said:


> if the MAR-1 is inferior as u claim, then why is india "worried" about a miserly 100 missiles and putting so called "pressure" on Brazil to scuttle the contract!!
> 
> and please provide examples of french "spiking" potential french-pak deals?
> 
> i am waiting!



I dont know and thus wont comment on the capability of the MAR-1 missile, but i would clarify one thing. GoI makes it a point to protest the sale of any equipment sale to Pakistan if it can be used offensively. The keyword is 'offensive'. Thus the protest of GoI should not be construed as a validation of the lethality or lack of it of any platform or equipment.


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## ejaz007

*India Stunned as Brazil Sells 100 Advanced Air-to-Surface Missiles to Pakistan*
Dated 10/1/2009


The Indian Air Force has taken note of Pakistan's latest acquisition of 100 anti-radiation missiles (ARM) from Brazil. The missile is an air-to-surface weapon used for destroying air defence ground radars Pakistan bought the missiles from Brazil last month.

Brazil's decision to go ahead with the deal at the height of tension in the subcontinent has surprised Indian defence experts.

The missile has a maximum range of 25 km and has a 200 pound warhead. Fired from fighter jets, it seeks and destroys air defence radars even when they are deactivated. Indian officials said that the IAF also has its own ARMs which are capable of meeting the threat. The IAF fighter jets use Russian Kh-31 ARMs with passive homing radar.

These missiles are fitted on top of the line fighter like Su-30 MKI. Brazil had MAR-1 missiles in late 1999s for its Embraer/Aermacchi fighters. There is an interesting tale about the development of the missile which is believed to be a derivative of US AGM-45 Shrike ARM. Shrike ARM was fitted on British Avro Vulcon jets.

During the Falkan waragainst Argentina, a Vulcan developed a snag while returning from a sortie. Brazilian F-5 fighters escorted the aircraft back. The Royal Air Force plane landed at a Brazilian airfield and returned after the technical fault was removed. But the Shrike was held back by the Brazilians. The missile was returned later but not before the Brazilian engineers had taken a good look at it.

There is a general belief in Brazil that Mar-1 (Missil Anti-Radiacao 1) was developed out of the episode although little is known about its features. It has an autonomous target search and GPS. Indian officials said the deal signed in December is being closely watched. It came as a surprise as Brazil has close military relations with India.

The two countries had come closer in recent years as part of the South-South cooperation programme. New Delhi has a trilateral co-operation arrangement with Brazil and South Africa. The Indian Air Force had recently purchased Brazilian Embraer executive jets.

India Stunned as Brazil Sells 100 Advanced Air-to-Surface Missiles to Pakistan | India Defence


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## blain2

roopesh said:


> is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)



What kind of a question is this? If the world can provide to India, Pakistan is also entitled to the same.


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## phoenix_arisen09

PC said:


> "*Brazil needs export customers in order to achieve its national goal of re-building its defense industries."
> Pakistan apparently is also interested in south africa brazil joint projects such as A-Darter, and ramjet BVR AAM! so why would brazil wanna miss multi 100 million dollars deal with pakistan? mind you India has bigger share in French market be it defence and still it does not stop them from negotiating with pakistan. *
> 
> 
> 
> *oh here we go with indian inferiority superiority complexion. AGM-45? lol what a joke. if you wanna compare MAR-1 then AGM-88E should come to mind and pakistani version is a more advance version of what brazil is using with more extended range and more powerful lock on capability.
> dont know why is it first hand reaction of indians to assume all weapons acquired by pakistan are downgraded or some cheap rip off. what a loser mentality. *
> 
> that really sucks because the topic is "pak MAR-1 acquisition" not a pi contest. And btw Pakistan already has AGM-88 which can be upgraded.
> 
> whats your point? that india has accesses to super alien technology AD system and no one can penetrate? and you keep bloodily referring MAR-1 to agm-45 which is not even true at all. lol
> The MAR-1 advance version incorporates, "GPS and internal radar technology once detected the missile locks-on and can hit with pinpoint accuracy whether the radar is on or off."
> btw here is your sate of super python technology that pretty much failed in georgia-russia war while even a low tech su-25 flew freely in gergian air space and phytons were being fooled by decoys. lol




Interest is something different from permission for actual venture participation.

I dont get it. Its written in previous posts its a derivative of AGM-45 Shrike with incorporation of GPS and IGS so as to overcome the shortfalls of Shrike. And its a better version of the same. So how come any joke? And the thing that beats me is why would Pakistanis buy MAR-1 if they hold AGM-88 which has 150kms range and buy a missile of 25kms range only? Please do explain. Also how come Brazilians are offering you a version of greater range than what they have developed in are using? Any logic? Please do explain with sources and not on mere figment of imagination.


I agree. Kh-31 is redundant here. But Pakistan DOES NOT have AGM-88 and certainly NOT AGM-88E. Even the US Navy does not have the same yet and they will first provide PAF!!!!!!


all techs can be beaten hence the statement it shall be battle of chances who has better luck and reflexes. Please read about IGS and GPS. They can not locate in new search mode if the radar is off and has moved from location. In case of mobile radar which does not need setting up it is easy to move and hence you have chance to get away. The only missile which has still got a better ability is BRITISH ALRAM missile which 'loiters' over the field to beat this problem by parachute and then waits for re-activation of radar to locate it again.

Seems your MAR-1 incorporates technology even Brazilians dont have.

And lastly, you are dependent upon US and European GPS satellites which will be blocked once war between india and pakistan starts. even indian army is dependent upon them but not completely as they are in JV with russia in GLONASS system and as part of that have been putting up their own satellites in addition to Russian satellites. So your GPS is quite useless frankly. We will have effect but not as bad as Pakistan. No pissing contest here.


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## phoenix_arisen09

fatman17 said:


> if the MAR-1 is inferior as u claim, then why is india "worried" about a miserly 100 missiles and putting so called "pressure" on Brazil to scuttle the contract!!
> 
> and please provide examples of french "spiking" potential french-pak deals?
> 
> i am waiting!



there is NEVER a mention of MAR-1 being useless .... only limited in its range. and only elaboration is of SPYDER vs MAR-1 in which its equal chances both sides due to reasons already mentioned. MAR-1 infact poses a very strong threat to fixed static manil control radars which are located in static locations well behind the front lines. But at the same time the reduced range increases the question of pilot survivability ........ 

Agosta project ran into turbulence (and it was unofficially attributed to Indian Airlines and Air India acquisition of 70+ ACs) and the speed was picked up after award of contract to Boeing ...... its purely speculative.

Also the deal for MAR-1 has only been finalised with the 108Million USD to be paid will be in loan with Government of Brazil acting as guarantor ...... the delivery schedule is yet to be worked out .......


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## hj786

Sir you are most welcome on this forum if you contribute to interesting discussions. But please, try not make incorrect statements. 

You say that MAR-1 relies on GPS, which Pakistan can be cut off from in the event of war, making it inferior to Russian systems. Firstly, you do not know that PAF wull be cut off - it is only a possibility. Secondly, you are forgetting China's satellite system. PAF would have full access to that. PAF can easily re-program MAR-1 to use the Chinese system (ToT is involved).

Those who say MAR-1 is short ranged - PAF version's range is far more than what you state (above 70km) - confirmed by an inside source. That is just the missile - the seeker has been tested to detect out to 500km - that is confirmed on the internet too. 

Those who say MAR-1 is just a copy of the old Shrike recovered from Vulcans that made an emergency landing in Brazil - this was posted by somebody on World Affairs Board. A respected American member (may have been highsea - not sure) then replied that Brazil is very advanced in the ARM seeker field, the USA stopped them exporting one of their indigenous ARM seeker designs because it was so advanced some time ago. I have no source, so if you don't believe me I don't care. If you think PAF would spend so much money on something so limited, by all means keep thinking that. 

One thing that some people on other websites have been discussing is the possibility of the MAR-1 seeker being mated to a certain Pakistani air launched cruise missile.


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## phoenix_arisen09

hj786 said:


> Sir you are most welcome on this forum if you contribute to interesting discussions. But please, try not make incorrect statements.
> 
> You say that MAR-1 relies on GPS, which Pakistan can be cut off from in the event of war, making it inferior to Russian systems. Firstly, you do not know that PAF wull be cut off - it is only a possibility. Secondly, you are forgetting China's satellite system. PAF would have full access to that. PAF can easily re-program MAR-1 to use the Chinese system (ToT is involved).
> 
> Those who say MAR-1 is short ranged - PAF version's range is far more than what you state (above 70km) - confirmed by an inside source. That is just the missile - the seeker has been tested to detect out to 500km - that is confirmed on the internet too.
> 
> Those who say MAR-1 is just a copy of the old Shrike recovered from Vulcans that made an emergency landing in Brazil - this was posted by somebody on World Affairs Board. A respected American member (may have been highsea - not sure) then replied that Brazil is very advanced in the ARM seeker field, the USA stopped them exporting one of their indigenous ARM seeker designs because it was so advanced some time ago. I have no source, so if you don't believe me I don't care. If you think PAF would spend so much money on something so limited, by all means keep thinking that.
> 
> One thing that some people on other websites have been discussing is the possibility of the MAR-1 seeker being mated to a certain Pakistani air launched cruise missile.




actually i have not contended that its inferior to russian system .... i have said GPS services which are currently hosted by US, will be blocked by US in case of confrontation between India and Pakistan for BOTH. We have a compulsory commando course at Junior Leader Wing for all Young Officers of IA where one guy turned up with a GPS and he was asked to shelve it. 

There are only 3 systems which are GPS systems existing ie the US GNSS, Russian GLONASS and European Galileo (the latter being in initial developmental stages and GLONASS almost complete with Indo-Russian colaboration) 

source from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

The MAR-1 has not been completely unveiled so far so all tech aspects are awaited, but range has been said about 25 kms and GPS and IGS have inherent flaws for ALL weapons and i have posted a site for same ..... previously. I have only contended that SPYDER has a chance to get away when a forum member speculated in that respect.

I maintain that MAR-1 is a threat to main RADARS which are longer range and static as also to SAM AD units (majority of IA AD units will be at risk). Only 18 batteries of SPYDER shall be inducted and they too are not even 40% safe in ARM scenario. However I had given a good chance to get away as limitations are there that is all.

There was a perception that I trash all Pakistani equipment. No I dont. There is no doubt that Pakistan today has a clear edge over India in cruise and ballistic missiles, in sync with its first use policy. There is no denying it. Its that in terms of patriotism, person misreads and misinterprets posts. I have tried to reason out all along understanding the "sensitivities" Hell I even got after shiv aroor in livefist ........ when he claimed Arjun was great tank ...... am not biased that is all


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

phoenix_arisen09 said:


> dear fellow posters ....
> there is no intention of belittling at all ...... if any hard feelings then i apologise for same.
> 
> dear moderators ..... am just having a discussion ...... please do let me know if am unwelcome ..... I had been posting as phoenix80 and wanted to reply but found have been banned ..... for what? I have absolutely no idea .... and without any reason being mentioned and forever banned .... have come to know if anyone has objections to my being here kindly do let know so can move out myself ..... its very unsporting to ban just because you dont like some post. atleast give me a reason



DO NOT create multiple ID's.

If you wish to contest your ban, email the webmaster or use the 'contact us' link.


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## tinamou

shehbazi2001 said:


> Its a far-fetched idea that ARM shall home in on SPYDER instead of its fire-control radar. The parameters of both radars are widely different and this difference is obvious in the scan patterns, frequency bands used, power output, pulse lengths (for pulse radars) etc and the processor of ARM is programmed to recognise various radars through various check parameters.
> 
> The ground surveillance radar scans in 360 degrees and even the fire-control radar's main lobe (or main beam) is wider, superior in power output to that of Derby or any missile nose radar because of later's smaller antenna and weaker power supply. Scan patterns are also different. A radar shall scan untill it gets locked on target.
> 
> Then comes the trajectories. Trajectories of both missiles are not the same and they may not come even close, not to speak of intercepting each other. ARM may cruise at high altitude and then suddenly dive on its target (one of many possible attack modes of ARM) whereas a SAM usually fires straight to target except may be the S-300 series.




I think in that case the Indians have S-300 PMU2s with a range of 195 kms already.

source: en/wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300P

Also the thing is that given that MAR-1 has limited range of 25 kms, the AD units in India have mainly to worry about OSA-AK mobile systems (which still can switch off and run from site in case of being noticed due to packaged systems ie radar and missiles on BMPs already and no need to set it up separately), the SA-3 Pechora units and finally the main fixed radars ..... the mobile ones have ability to relocate making it very difficult if not impossible to kill.


It leaves PAF at immense risk and please dont claim enhanced range when even the schedule for delivery is not yet known.

Anyways does anyone know when are they likely to be delivered?


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## tinamou

phoenix_arisen09 said:


> Interest is something different from permission for actual venture participation.
> 
> I dont get it. Its written in previous posts its a derivative of AGM-45 Shrike with incorporation of GPS and IGS so as to overcome the shortfalls of Shrike. And its a better version of the same. So how come any joke? And the thing that beats me is why would Pakistanis buy MAR-1 if they hold AGM-88 which has 150kms range and buy a missile of 25kms range only? Please do explain. Also how come Brazilians are offering you a version of greater range than what they have developed in are using? Any logic? Please do explain with sources and not on mere figment of imagination.
> 
> 
> I agree. Kh-31 is redundant here. But Pakistan DOES NOT have AGM-88 and certainly NOT AGM-88E. Even the US Navy does not have the same yet and they will first provide PAF!!!!!!
> 
> 
> all techs can be beaten hence the statement it shall be battle of chances who has better luck and reflexes. Please read about IGS and GPS. They can not locate in new search mode if the radar is off and has moved from location. In case of mobile radar which does not need setting up it is easy to move and hence you have chance to get away. The only missile which has still got a better ability is BRITISH ALRAM missile which 'loiters' over the field to beat this problem by parachute and then waits for re-activation of radar to locate it again.
> 
> Seems your MAR-1 incorporates technology even Brazilians dont have.
> 
> And lastly, you are dependent upon US and European GPS satellites which will be blocked once war between india and pakistan starts. even indian army is dependent upon them but not completely as they are in JV with russia in GLONASS system and as part of that have been putting up their own satellites in addition to Russian satellites. So your GPS is quite useless frankly. We will have effect but not as bad as Pakistan. No pissing contest here.



yes AGM-88s have not been supplied to PAF, anyways as far as my memory goes. they had demanded the same, especially with post-9/11 enhanced cooperation but they do not tend to come under necessary sales.

Although AMRAAMs have been given strange logic

At present only the US GNASS system is fully operationalised ... GLONASS had shortage of funding for completion but the Russians got indians onboard to complete it and its almost complete.
The European Galileo is still some years off from completion. 

I agree. US will deny access of GPS to both India and Pakistan in case of a war. Although I doubt it will effect India as bad as Pakistan in that case.


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## tinamou

PC said:


> why the heck do indians keep referring MAR-1 with agm-45? like i have said, it kind of reflects their cheap mentality of assuming everything is downgraded stuff when talking of pakistan. first of all. MAR-1 guidance system is very very different from old SEAD missiles such as Agm-45 and old variant of agm-88. i would rather compare this missile with new HARM variants such as 88D and E.
> 
> 
> 
> AIR WEAPONS: Brazilian HARM For Pakistan
> Tuesday, Dec 09, 2008
> Brazil has sold a hundred MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles to Pakistan. The MAR-1 weighs 603 pounds, is 13 feet long and has a max range of 25 kilometers. It has a 200 pound warhead and is used to seek out and destroy air-defense radars. Pakistan paid about $1.1 million for each missile (including training, tech support and spare parts). Top speed of the missile is about a 1,200 kilometers an hour (335 meters a second). At max range, it takes about two minutes to reach a target. More common times would be about a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> The AGM-88E version defeats the favorite trick of anti-aircraft units, shutting down their radars when they note a HARM is on the way. The AGM-88E remembers where the radar is when it was on, and carries its own high resolution (millimeter wave) radar to make sure it gets the radar. Finally, the AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out.



Only in the Block 6 upgrades .... the same are as of now available only to Italy and Germany ....... and maybe Israel .......


But no doubt if PAF is able to penetrate without detection, MAR-1 will do a very serious damage to fixed long range radars


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## Myth_buster_1

@ *tinamou & phoenix_*

you both are being delusional about MAR-1 capability and the concept of SEAD which does not depend on lone anti-radiation missile fired like a blind shot. SEAD works in conjection with BVR AGM or CM along with "anti-radiation AGM ofcourse" and both must be timely coordinated inorder to achive perfect SEAD! Pakistan already posess combat proven AGM-154, "HARM soon to be upgraded", H-2, H-4 and soon MAR-1. 

The Spider system is not imposibel to kill, while MAR-1 "advance version" prevents the radar to be shut down, mean while the well coordinated BVR AGM takes out Missiles launchers!



> In particular, the American AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon is an effective weapon for attacking SAM sites, due to its fairly long standoff range which allows the launching aircraft to avoid being threatened by all but the longest range missiles, and its relatively large area of destruction against soft targets.





> The AGM-154A traditionally gets used for SEAD missions.


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## shehbazi2001

PC said:


> The original AGM-88 has been in use since the 1980s, and the original 1960s anti- radiation missile quickly evolved into what was called HARM (High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile).
> 
> The AGM-88E version defeats the favorite trick of anti-aircraft units, shutting down their radars when they note a HARM is on the way. The AGM-88E remembers where the radar is when it was on, and carries its own high resolution (millimeter wave) radar to make sure it gets the radar. Finally, the AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out.



The target memory is not just the feature of AGM-88E, not even the early AGM-88 versions. Rather earlier AGM-78B Standard ARM called shortly as 'STARM' also featured it as early as 1969.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/stardarm.htm

AGM-78 Standard ARM Summary

From [8.0] Anti-Radar Missiles

The AGM-78B was also fitted with a smoke flare to mark the target, allowing other aircraft to spot and attack an air-defense site with HE and cluster bombs after the STARM blinded its radar. However this target marking smoke flare seems to be a feature of even the early AGM-45 Shrike.

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## Penguin

A few thoughts in the issue of range of MAR-1:

1. Range for AGM-88 HARM was/is 57 nautical miles / 66 mi / 106 km (see e.g. Wiki). IMHO some have confused this as being the range for MAR-1. Example from a post on www . fuerzasmilitares . org: "O MAR-1 é um míssil anti radiação, equivalente ao HARM americano com alcance de cerca de 100Km." Such a post can easily be musunderstood to mean MAR-1 has the same range as AGM-88, while what is meant is that MAR-1 is equivalent to HARM in the sense that both are anti-radiation missiles.

2. Aside from the fact that some sources claim 35km rather than 25km range for MAR-1, I think in discussing the range issue that the italicised part of the quote below is often overlooked:

"The missile has a reported range of 25 km _when launched from an altitude of about 33,000 feet/ 10 km_."
http :// panamericandefense . wordpress . com / category / updated-by-country / brasil /

"A primeira versão testada tinha alcance no limite de 25 a 30 quilômetros, disparado na altitude de 33 mil pés, cerca de 10 mil metros."
(The first tested version had reach in the limit of 25 the 30 kilometers, gone off in the altitude of 33 a thousand feet, about 10 a thousand meters.) 
http :// www . fab . mil . br / portal / capa / index.php ? datan = 07/12/2008 & page=mostra_notimpol

I suppose it would be able to fly further when launched from greater altitude?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Tinamou/phoenix80 - stop creating multiple ID's.

I have already suggested a course for addressing your ban, follow that, and do not log on again until the webmaster lifts the ban on one of your ID's.

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## batmannow

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Tinamou/phoenix80 - stop creating multiple ID's.
> 
> I have already suggested a course for addressing your ban, follow that, and do not log on again webmaster lifts the ban on one of your ID's.



AgNoStIc MuSliM;, sir 
so that this thread also closed?
thanks


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

batmannow said:


> AgNoStIc MuSliM;, sir
> so that this thread also closed?
> thanks



Thread is open, member with multiple ID's is banned, again.


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## Zob

i think the range of 25km is too little correct me if i am wrong...!! the strike aircraft will be completely exposed to the SAM's protecting the radars!! but whatever the case it is a good purchase for PAF


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## shehbazi2001

tinamou said:


> I think in that case the Indians have S-300 PMU2s with a range of 195 kms already.
> 
> source: en/wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300P
> 
> Also the thing is that given that MAR-1 has limited range of 25 kms, the AD units in India have mainly to worry about OSA-AK mobile systems (which still can switch off and run from site in case of being noticed due to packaged systems ie radar and missiles on BMPs already and no need to set it up separately), the SA-3 Pechora units and finally the main fixed radars ..... the mobile ones have ability to relocate making it very difficult if not impossible to kill.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I would agree that short-range SAM units are more vulnerable.
> shot-range SAMs whose fire-control (or even search) radars are mounted over the same vehicle that also carries missiles seem to be more vulnerable to ARM attack. All in one vehicle is not safe, as if the fire-control radar is hit by ARM, the missiles would also be lost.
> 
> Although SAM missiles are useless if SAM radar is lost, even then missiles can be reused if they survive. Russian SA-2, SA-3, SA-5, SA-6, S-300 series carry missiles separately from both search and fire-control radars.
> 
> Now SA-8 (Osa-Ak), SA-19 Tunguska and Crotale carry fire-control radars together with missile on one vehilce, which is not ideal situation.
> 
> But even then its not so simple to survive for the medium-range ones too untill they meet certain conditions.
Click to expand...

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## shehbazi2001

We must have questions in mind that why can't a SAM site intercept and destroy an incoming ARM rather than shutting down the radar? We know that even artillery shells can be destroyed by missiles for example the British Sea Wolf anti-missile point defence system demonstrated such capability and in the Falklands war of 1982, no british ship equipped with Sea Wolf was hit by Exocet. 

Now the RCS of an artillery shell is smaller than a missile and thus must be harder than ARM to detect. Also we know that Scud missiles were destroyed by US Patriot systems. But still we have not heard that ARM was destroyed en route to the radar. Here is an effort to understand this mystery.

There has always been an emphasis that air defence radars should have least sidelobes and backlobes. An ARM that homes on the main lobe of radar shall obviously be visible on the radar screen albeit at short range and the radar operator can shut down the radar, thus degrading the kill probability in case the radar is mobile and relocates in 10-15 seconds.

Anti-Radiation missiles therefore avoid the mainlobe and home on sidelobes and backlobes because a radar works through the main lobe. Radar receives the reflections from sidelobes too but they are generally unwanted and weak returns.

I conclude that ARM homing on backlobe means it is not following the launch aircraft's line-of-sight to fire-control radar and even may be coming from behind the fire-control radar. Similarly, an ARM homing on the sidelobe may strike from right or left and not from front.

If the returns from sidelobes are rejected, a single radar may not even see the ARM coming. Similarly if ARM is homing on backlobe, a very long range radar too may not get any warning as the radar does not function through backlobes. 

This implies that a stand-alone (non-AESA) radar is more vulnerable than a set of radars and that the fire-control radars should be in coverage of search radars. An overlapping radar coverage is important for added security and safety.

Sidelobes issues is serious for older radars associated with short-range SAMs because the launch aircraft can release its ARM before the SAM and then the radar is more likely to follow the launch aircraft rather than ARM.

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## shehbazi2001

Continuing to the last post,

When a fire-control radar of SAM is under attack by ARM, the search radar can alert the SAM crews even if the ARM is attacking from behind, left or right.

A mechanically scanned surveillance or acquisition radar is rotating at 360 degrees continuously and so are rotating its main, side and backlobes. Thus an ARM can't attack a search radar in surprise. On the other hand, an engagement/fire-control/targeting radar does not rotate continuously and rather track the target continuously. 

With the coming on scene of AESA radars, this advantage of ARM shall erode if all radars on the ground too are upgraded to AESA technology.

Old antennae used to be of concave shape. Planar array radar antennae have less sidelobes as compared to classical concave reflecting antennae (known as dish antennae). The antenna is a flat plate in planar array. Still these early planar array antennae were mechanically scanned. APG-63 radar of early F-15 Eagle is one example of planar arrays.

Then came the phased array antenna or PESA radars. Lastly, we have AESA that have extremely small sidelobes as compared to all earlier radars, making it very difficult for ARMs.

From this point of view, our new AEW are not so prone to surprise attack even by an air to air anti-radiation missile and should get ample warning.

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## Contrarian

There is another issue, along with the long range search radars, there are multiple medium and low level radars that complement the long range radar and which scan at different frequencies.

They are the ones who will actually be stopping the HARM's/ARM's IMO if the ARM tracks only the sidelobe of the LRSR and thus enters the range of the medium level SAM without being intercepted by the LRSAM.


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## hj786

To the Pakistanis who think MAR-1's range is 25-35km. Do you seriously think they would release the actual range of a missile that is capable of complete and utter destruction of India's entire air defence network? 
MAR-1's seeker has been tested to home in on radar sources from 500km away - this info is available on the net. Modern BVR AAMs have ranges of 100-200km. 
Give me one good reason why MAR-1 can't reach similar ranges - we know for sure it's seeker is capable of much greater ranges. Got one? It doesn't matter.
Cos now you have to give me one good reason why that seeker can't be mated to a much longer ranged missile, such as a cruise missile.


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## Tikuna

Get ready for the new purchase of Pakistan! 

Astros II 

soon!

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## Quwa

Tikuna said:


> Get ready for the new purchase of Pakistan!
> 
> Astros II
> 
> soon!


I'm assuming your sources reported this?


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## RS4

Of the topic i know but do any of you know which PGM system the PAF will go for? JDAM will only equip blk 52 F16S. What about FC20 and JF17, will they be fitted with a chinese targeting pod or something western like the ATLIS2?


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## ejaz007

A picture of the missile:

http://66.45.238.155/uploads/photos/12816.jpg


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## Myth_buster_1

RS4 said:


> Of the topic i know but do any of you know which PGM system the PAF will go for? JDAM will only equip blk 52 F16S. What about FC20 and JF17, will they be fitted with a chinese targeting pod or something western like the ATLIS2?



i recomend you to go through IDEAS-2008 pictures, "SKY BOLT" has got them all for us. alot of PGM, LGB, long range bombs, AGM were displayed which were of PAF interests. meanwhile, we have already tested H-2 and H-4 long range glide bombs with 60-100 km range.

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## hj786

Tikuna said:


> Get ready for the new purchase of Pakistan!
> Astros II
> soon!



Astros II MLRS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Wikipedia said:


> The ASTROS II artillery system entered service with the Brazilian Army in 1983.
> 
> In the 1980s, Avibrás sold an estimated sixty-six Astros II artillery systems to Iraq. *Iraq also built the Sajil-60 which is a license-built version of the Brazilian SS-60.* Sixty Astros II were sold to Saudi Arabia and an unspecified number sold to Bahrain and Qatar. Total sales of the Astros II between 1982 and 1987 reached US$1 billion.[2] This fact made the Astros II multiple rocket launcher the most profitable weapon produced by Avibrás....
> 
> ...in the first Gulf War in 1991, *the Astros II was successfully used by Saudi Arabia against Iraq. Years later, the Astros II system helped Angola to defeat the UNITA*.



If your news is true Tikuna, P.A. is inducting a combat-proven rocket artillery system with possibility for license production or transfer of technology so Pakistan can build it themselves. 
Because the system is not a brand new system, I think there will be transfer of technology, just like with the MAR-1 missile.


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## Quwa

RS4 said:


> Of the topic i know but do any of you know which PGM system the PAF will go for? JDAM will only equip blk 52 F16S. What about FC20 and JF17, will they be fitted with a chinese targeting pod or something western like the ATLIS2?


Pakistan will mostly rely on locally produced PGMs, in fact it is developing a range of precision-guided munitions with Turkey. Like PC mentioned, we may also see other types of weapon-systems...for example Sagem of France offered the AASM.

On another note, I hope one day Pakistan works with Brazil & South Africa on the A-Darter and Umkhonto-R programs. Perhaps even acquire the Embraer C-390 in the future.


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## zavis2003

*AGM-88 HARM*
The AGM-88 HARM missile was developed as a successor to early ARMs such as the AGM-
45 Shrike 
Shrike was used during the Vietnam War. 
The missile was fitted to the US Air Force
F-4G Wild Weasel aircraft and F 4 before they were withdrawn from service in the early 1990s.
Certain versions of the F-16 now discharge this role, and Navy F/A-18s are also capable of
Successfully targetin with the missile
The radar crossection of target is provided to missile to make it deadly one
After lockon Target with the missile seeker and, after launch, it used fadio frequency enegy to destroy it with homing, and destroying it with a high-explosive (HE) direct
fragmentation warhead.	
EMCON are usied for targeting

_Refrences
www.eurofighter-starsteak.net

Fulghum, D.A. (2000) New F-22 radar unveils future. Aviation Week and Space Technology, 7 February.
Kopp, C. (1994) 
MIL-STD-1760D (2003) Interface standard for aircraft/store electrical interfaces, 1 August._


Well y pakistan is not going for HARM???????????????????


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## Arsalan

Anti-radiation missiles are designed to find, home in on, and destroy enemy air defense radars; they are often carried by specialist aircraft that accompany air strikes to perform the SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) mission. In December 2008, Brazils government approved a $108 million April 2008 contract with Pakistan for 100 of Mectrons MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles. DID sources add that the deal needed the Brazilian governments loan guarantee to become effective. 

In contrast with other Mectron Engenharia missiles, such as the MAA-1 SRAAM or the forthcoming A-Darter partnership, Mectron appears to be working hard to avoid publicity for the MAR-1. The firm would not even acknowledge the missiles existence for many years, and details remain sketchy. Pictures like this one show a MAR-1 that appears to be similar in size to counterparts like Raytheons AGM-88 HARM, and has a reported range of 25 km when launched from an altitude of about 33,000 feet/ 10 km. Testing appears to have ended, and it will equip Brazils upgraded AMX and F-5BR aircraft once it is accepted into service.

The recent massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India has complicated Brazils approval announcement. As attention is drawn to the role Pakistans intelligence agency has played in this and other attacks, Brazils Defense Minister Nelson Jobim has been forced to respond: Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani government. 

Brazils friends in India are already doing that, of course. On the other hand, Brazil needs export customers in order to achieve its national goal of re-building its defense industries. Jobim has been quoted as saying that the deal will allow Mectron to increase its production from 1 missile per month to 5 missiles. A sale to Pakistan, followed by integration into a platform like the Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 lightweight fighter, could also open up a number of new markets for Mectron. Defesa Brazil [Portuguese] | AFP via The Straits Times | Defense News re: PAF confirms sale | Janes re: MAR-1 | Seguranca & Defesa article, incl. details re: MAR-1 [English].

Brazil to Sell MAR-1 SEAD Missiles to Pakistan


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## Tikuna

Hello everyone,

There is a great chance of the deal was canceled. It would be a pity.
Reason? I need not mention his name.

Regards to all


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## Kompromat

If the deal is canceled than i reckon Pak should work hard to build this kind of weapon indigenously


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## azfar

which platform will be used for it? f-16, jf-17?


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## Mercenary

ONLINE - International News Network

Delivery of 100 missiles from Brazil to start this year 

ISLAMABAD/RIO De JANEIRO: The supply of 100 automatic Anti Radiant missiles (MAR-1) to Pakistan from Brazil would be started this year.

Defense sources informed Online that Government of Brazil on December 03, 2008 gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan, which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking installations. After formal agreement, the supply of such missiles would be started to Pakistan from Brazil this year and would be completed in 2 or 3 years, sources said, adding that, the medium-range missiles is being made by Brazilian firm Mectron.

Sources went on to say that not only missiles would be given to Pakistan but also Brazilian authorities would impart training and other facilities to Pakistani authorities in this respect.

MAR-I having 25 to 30 kilometer range is anti-radiant missile and can be used in air to surface attack on radar tracking installations of enemy.

The Pakistans defense authorities were of the view that the defense capability of Pakistan would be increased after taking 100 missiles from Brazil.

Pakistan would also enter in ranks of those countries having names in defense technology because Brazilian firm would also impart training facility to countrys respective authorities in order to give missile technology to Pakistan, they said.

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## illuminatus

^^ Absolutely made my day with this! Thanks!


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## Chanakyaa

Indeed its a Good News for Pakistan.
Will make the Air to Surface Capabilities even Better.

Can u tell us which plan shall use it ?

*F16s , JF17 or J10s ?*


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## illuminatus

Not only will these missiles improve A2S capabilities, but also complement the already growing list of ordnance on JF-17 and even the FC-20 in the future. The missiles are also capable of destroying different types of land-based and sea-based radars with different modes, including high power surveillance radars, low power mobile radars and radars used by surface-to-air missile systems! Just imagine MICA, Ra'ad ALCM, MAR-1, SD-10 and other weaponry loaded on JF-17! Truly an omni-role platform that's only going to get more lethal in the future. Another splendid part of this deal is that these missiles come with some level of tech transfer. It seems that after the delivery of 100 missiles Pakistan will be producing them domestically. The Brazilian assistance in training and other facilities seems to be a hint in this direction. I suspect that the range is much longer than revealed. The Brazilians have for years secretly been working on this missile and I'm sure that the specs too have evolved. However, even if this weren't to be the case, Pakistani scientists have matured missile tech to such an extent that I'm sure we will see a modified (i.e. extended, improved, upgraded) version in the future! This superb development can only be rejoiced.


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## illuminatus

XiNiX said:


> Indeed its a Good News for Pakistan.
> Will make the Air to Surface Capabilities even Better.
> 
> Can u tell us which plan shall use it ?
> 
> *F16s , JF17 or J10s ?*



JF-17 and FC-20 platforms most certainly! I doubt that the F-16s will be allowed to carry these beauties. Americans will not allow this to happen.

PS. I'm so glad that this deal has gone through despite Indian bickering LOLZ

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## Chanakyaa

illuminatus said:


> JF-17 and FC-20 platforms most certainly! I doubt that the F-16s will be allowed to carry these beauties. Americans will not allow this to happen.



I think it suits J10s due to their range .. of course F16 was much better.


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## illuminatus

XiNiX said:


> I think it suits J10s due to their range .. of course F16 was much better.



Former ACM Tanvir Mahmood has previously confirmed that the main priority for the future JF-17 Block will be range and hardpoints improvement.

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## BATMAN

XiNiX said:


> I think it suits J10s due to their range .. of course F16 was much better.



Why??? do you think so? why not JF-17?


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## razgriz19

BATMAN said:


> Why??? do you think so? why not JF-17?



probably because j-10 has longer range than jf-17


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## Super Falcon

before i heared we will buy 200 missiles


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## asim.mian10

this is really a good news


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## illuminatus

^^ I believe that's quite old news. Funny though to see how the typical knee jerk reactions from the Indians are provoked by any Pakistani acquisition or accomplishment. However, their own so-called state-of-the-art acquisitions are not meant to trigger an arms race. Yeah right...

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## Super Falcon

hahahahah you are right friend and when they buy anything it is for defence than what we dont have any defence to do for our country


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## Mercenary

Super Falcon said:


> [url="http://
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLz...
> 
> Man this Indian News Report is so funny...
> 
> India is arming it self to the teeth and Pakistan acquires a few missiles and they are losing their sleep.
> 
> I love the use of ominous background music and visuals to drum up the threat.


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## Super Falcon

hahahahhahaha drum up the threat it like they r scared hahahahahhahahahhahahaha


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## Mercenary

Super Falcon said:


> hahahahhahaha drum up the threat it like they r scared hahahahahhahahahhahahaha



Whats next?

Pakistan acquires 1 bullet and Indian Media will say Pakistan is starting an Arms Race?


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## TOPGUN

Well then i suppose the deal is still on from Brazil?


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## Kinshuk

Super Falcon said:


> hahahahhahaha drum up the threat it like they r scared hahahahahhahahahhahahaha



Yes Sir! bohot dar lag raha hai, neend bhi nahi aayi poori raat. its 7 am.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Once Pakistan gets the Advance KD2000 air defence system the Indian planes will be flying out from the skies like flies , Imagine simultaneously knocking out 15 aircrafts from skies ... 

bari meethi neend aye gi ab tu


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## Mercenary

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Once Pakistan gets the Advance KD2000 air defence system the Indian planes will be flying out from the skies like flies , Imagine simultaneously knocking out 15 aircrafts from skies ...
> 
> bari meethi neend aye gi ab tu



What system is this and when does pakistan get it?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Ref is a a brief mention on what KD2000 Export version is 
Uskowi on Iran: Iran to Purchase Chinese S-300 

200-300 km buffer and tracking of all 50+ targets by every battery

Reference: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-9
the system recently also mentioned by our army ...

Lets see anyone violate Pakistan airspace now




The same system is in Pakistan - 


Simultaneous tracking of 50 airplanes in air , and destruction of 10 planes simultanously 

Its a done deal together with Turkish radars we are getting - its looks great .... its exciting times my friend its exciting times 

Bang Bang


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## Mercenary

When did Pakistan get this?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Mercenary said:


> When did Pakistan get this?



Its planned to arrive with in 1 year - but you know china is our most reliable ally so it ca come with in 24 hours if needed but officially it should arrive in 1 years time , we could already posses some of these already (Top Secret confidential stuff)

Unofficially you know , it can be just packed up in C130 and brought in with in 4 hours into Pakistan -

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## Mercenary

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Its planned to arrive with in 1 year - but you know china is our most reliable ally so it ca come with in 24 hours if needed but officially it should arrive in 1 years time , we could already posses some of these already (Top Secret confidential stuff)
> 
> Unofficially you know , it can be just packed up in C130 and brought in with in 4 hours into Pakistan -



Nice...do you have the news article that mentions this?

Getting this System will be the final piece in our aerial defense. We lacked a high-altitude missile defense system.


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## junaid1

The supply of 100 automatic Anti Radiant missiles (MAR-1) to Pakistan from Brazil would be started this year.

Defense sources informed Online that Government of Brazil on December 03, 2008 gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan, which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking installations. After formal agreement, the supply of such missiles would be started to Pakistan from Brazil this year and would be completed in 2 or 3 years, sources said, adding that, the medium-range missiles is being made by Brazilian firm Mectron.

Sources said that not only missiles would be given to Pakistan but also Brazilian authorities would impart training and other facilities to Pakistani authorities in this respect.

MAR-I having 25 to 30 kilometer range is anti-radiant missile and can be used in air to surface attack on radar tracking installations of enemy.

The Pakistan&#8217;s defense authorities were of the view that the defense capability of Pakistan would be increased after taking 100 missiles from Brazil.

Pakistan would also enter in ranks of those countries having names in defense technology because Brazilian firm would also impart training facility to country&#8217;s respective authorities in order to give missile technology to Pakistan


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## Malik Usman

http://www.khabraingroup.com/newspaper-detail13.htm

Tranlated:

The agreement between Brazil and Pakistan is done about latest medium range anti radiation missiles. These missiles can be fired from air to land to destory the enemy Radars. These missiles will be fitted on J-17 Thundars. The first batch of these missiles are arrived in Pakistan and rest will be before March next year of total 100 Missiles...................................................

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## SBD-3

Malik Usman said:


> http://www.khabraingroup.com/newspaper-detail13.htm
> 
> Tranlated:
> 
> The agreement between Brazil and Pakistan is done about latest medium range anti radiation missiles. These missiles can be fired from air to land to destory the enemy Radars. These missiles will be fitted on J-17 Thundars. The first batch of these missiles are arrived in Pakistan and rest will be before March next year of total 100 Missiles...................................................


Malik sahib there has been a lot of discussions on this before 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/17035-brazil-provide-100-missiles-pakistan.html


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## nomi007

mar-1 is better than french or american


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## chanikya

nomi007 said:


> mar-1 is better than french or american



Can you explain how. Any details.

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## sohailbarki

Any specs/comparison regarding the abilities of MAR-1 and its competitors.....

By the way nice move by PAF


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## chanikya

Weight 274 kilograms (600 lb) 
Length 4.03 metres (13.2 ft) 
Diameter 0.23 metres (0.75 ft) 
Warhead High-explosive 
Warhead weight 90 kilograms (200 lb) 
Detonation mechanism Laser/contact proximity fuse 
Engine Rocket motor
Guidance system Passive radar homing, home-on-jam 
Launch platform Combat aircraft: Northrop F-5, AMX, JF-17 Thunder

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## Dazzler

General performance should be equal to AGM-88 HARM or British ALARM but it offers slightly more range, 60-70kms.

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## Mani2020

Is Khabaraingroup too late to react or are those who were talking loud about MAR-1 deliveries to Pakistan and start of integration on jf-17 about a year back were just throwing self-created rumours

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## sohailbarki

Its range is fair enough as stand-off weapon but the quantity (100) missiles is not sufficient.

Also is there any TOT ?

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## regular

nabil_05 said:


> General performance should be equal to AGM-88 HARM or British ALARM but it offers slightly more range, 60-70kms.


But sir! 60-70km range is nothing as compared to brahmos. At least the range shold be increased upto 150to 200kms. Cuz the JF-17 won't be able to get near the Indians radar installation within 70km in the presence of their AWACs and Sukoi 30 Aircrafts cuz they can use BVRs to shoot JF17 from at least more than 100kms easily....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Lol... Pak even signed for the purchase of M-1B pirahna... n they r reported ancient years frm last year...


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## Mani2020

regular said:


> But sir! *60-70km range is nothing as compared to brahmos*. At least the range shold be increased upto 150to 200kms. Cuz the JF-17 won't be able to get near the Indians radar installation within 70km in the presence of their AWACs and Sukoi 30 Aircrafts cuz they can use BVRs to shoot JF17 from at least more than 100kms easily....



Yar both are of hell different leagues , how can you compare an anti-radiation missile with a nuclear capable cruise missile? don't compare apples with oranges

For the second part the air battle is not about just bvrs or AWACS ,its how you plan your tactics and the extent to which you can anticipate correctly ,its all about penetrating the enemy air-defences to launch a successful strike in enemy's territory ,for that there are special plans,factors and manoeuvres decided .

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## aanshu001

MAR-1 has been reported to have a range of 25 km when launched from an altitude of approximately 33,000 feet. so it needed to even more closer than u think.


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## regular

Mani2020 said:


> Yar both are of hell different leagues , how can you compare an anti-radiation missile with a nuclear capable cruise missile? don't compare apples with oranges
> 
> For the second part the air battle is not about just bvrs or AWACS ,its how you plan your tactics and the extent to which you can anticipate correctly ,its all about penetrating the enemy air-defences to launch a successful strike in enemy's territory ,for that there are special plans,factors and manoeuvres decided .


I agree to ure post and thats true but my point was infact to make a precaution for the safety factor. The increase in range will give more area of safety and survivability for our aircrafts. I mean if we have chance to icrease its range to 150km then we will be safe way beyond the threat level especially regarding the BVR's are concerned as well well as India has S-300 air defence system installed....


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## Manticore

Pshamim


> Rizvi Saheb, Munir Saheb is correct. Specs you have mentioned is for the older version. Pakistan received the new version
> 
> Minimum specs are as follows
> 
> Total mass of the missile is 274 KG but Pakistani missile can weigh up to 350kg
> Warhead is upto 90 KG
> Minimum Range 60km t 30000 feet
> Speed mach 0.5 to mach1.2
> 
> Missile was found to be extremely efficient against Israely ELTA el/m 2106. Hope it helps

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## Mani2020

regular said:


> I agree to ure post and thats true but my point was infact to make a precaution for the safety factor. The increase in range will give more area of safety and survivability for our aircrafts. I mean if we have chance to icrease its range to 150km then we will be safe way beyond the threat level especially regarding the BVR's are concerned as well well as India has S-300 air defence system installed....





aanshu001 said:


> MAR-1 has been reported to have a range of 25 km when launched from an altitude of approximately 33,000 feet. so it needed to even more closer than u think.



The range of 25km you guys are quoting is from wikipedia, dont go by wikipedia, the actual range is much more than this , atleast 50km ....that was from some source posted by me almost a year back .....can't remember the exact thread but i think it was jf-17 thread ....if you feel a dire need you guys can search it out there but for that you have to go through many pages


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## Dr. Strangelove

aanshu001 said:


> MAR-1 has been reported to have a range of 25 km when launched from an altitude of approximately 33,000 feet. so it needed to even more closer than u think.


no its range is around 60 to 70km


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## Rafi

Pakistan received the up-graded version, range is 60km, confirmed.

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## SEAL

100 Missiles are not enough i guess. atleast 300 to hony chayie,.


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## Donatello

All 100 MAR 1s were delivered, i think PAF sent it's C-130 for this purpose.

the question is if any of the Piranha were delivered or are due? Maybe Nabil_05 or Fatman can help us here?

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## Manticore

MunirQUOTE



> Maa-1a (now) = 3rd gen = python 3 = average aim 9L
> Maa-1b (2012) = 4th gen dual seeker = python 4 = latest versions Aim9L
> Darter (2015) = 5th gen digital seeker = python 5 = aim9X
> 
> all will be PAF JF17 WVR options.





> PAF bought MAR 1 for around 108 million for 100 missiles. That is around three times more per missile then the HARM average, and 25% more then the E variant. This is excluding testing and shipping (smile) so we can be sure that certain degree of TOT is involved. If you know that the initial investment for MAA-1b is only 3 million...
> 
> Something that should be added is the way Brasil handled it. Pure secrecy and good relaionship. They knew Pakistani situation cause they were (are) in it the same way for years. USA has blocked "sensitive" "dual" parts more then a few times to Brasil. Even the MAR-1 was delayed due to US action to stop direct and indirect parts being shipped to Brasil. These were the laser gyros, the seeker, engine. You see the mastered it and moved to a new level with second versions with more range (hence the burning time of MAA1A versus MAA1B is 2 to 6 and MAR1 has a lo more range) and better sensors (MAA1A has dual mode seeker, roll mechanism a la Python 4, high off bore sight and HMD, same attack pattern as Python 4). I needs to be added that Brasil has Python 4 in its service so they know what they do. It is not all new invention.







SIR Pshamim--


> Yes. We got some MAA-1A last August and September. B version still in testing but contracts may have been signed. India is not very happy and it thinks because of Brazil and India being part of BRIC Brazil should not support Pakistan.
> 
> However, theremay have been an agreemnt in place according to which Pakistan and Brazil, probably Mectron will share the development costs 50:50. I am not sure if the agreement was for MAR-1 or MAA-1B. Mectron is reported to have added 60 more engineers after the agreement so it is most likely to benefit from this agreement
> 
> 
> South Africa and Brazil are cooperating in the development of "A" darter missile which is undergoing tests. Hopefully, the production will start in 2013 and Pakistan is the first country to show interest. It has shown its willingness to buy at least 500 to 1000 of this missile for $450,000 each. This news has already been published before and not a secret
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rizvi Saheb, Munir Saheb is correct. Specs you have mentioned is for the older version. Pakistan received the new version
> 
> Minimum specs are as follows
> 
> Total mass of the missile is 274 KG but Pakistani missile can weigh up to 350kg
> Warhead is upto 90 KG
> Minimum Range 60km t 30000 feet
> Speed mach 0.5 to mach1.2
> 
> Missile was found to be extremely efficient against Israely ELTA el/m 2106. Hope it helps
> 
> 
> .

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## Dazzler

penumbra said:


> All 100 MAR 1s were delivered, i think PAF sent it's C-130 for this purpose.
> 
> the question is if any of the Piranha were delivered or are due? Maybe Nabil_05 or Fatman can help us here?



A version came with MAR-1 but B is yet to arrive. 2012 is the likely date of delivery but they can be sent sooner depending on trial performance. They are being tested for 2 years now. Brazil will get the first batch then PAF will start receiving hers. It is also known that these were offered during MAR-1 evaluation and for the sake of missile's operational similarity, the A version was sent.

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## Mani2020

penumbra said:


> All 100 MAR 1s were delivered, i think PAF sent it's C-130 for this purpose.
> 
> the question is if any of the Piranha were delivered or are due? Maybe Nabil_05 or Fatman can help us here?



As far as i know C-130 was there for M-1 Piranhas and not for MAR-1 missiles

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## Areesh

Mani2020 said:


> Is Khabaraingroup too late to react or are those who were talking loud about MAR-1 deliveries to Pakistan and start of integration on jf-17 about a year back were just throwing self-created rumours


 

I think it is the late reaction of Khabrain group about this procurement. You know the Pakistani media and it's knowledge about military and defense related issues.

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## Mani2020

Areesh said:


> I think it is the late reaction of Khabrain group about this procurement. You know the Pakistani media and it's knowledge about military and defense related issues.



but the question that baffles me ...how come a news agency report something that happened a year ago? secondly what was there source that they suddenly came out one day popping up Mar-1 delivery news when (if) the thing already happened a year ago


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## regular

Mani2020 said:


> but the question that baffles me ...how come a news agency report something that happened a year ago? secondly what was there source that they suddenly came out one day popping up Mar-1 delivery news when (if) the thing already happened a year ago


U know these newspapers are always late in posting good news like our corrupt politicians....I guess they didn't have anything to print so they posted an old news to fillup the newspaper.....


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## Areesh

Mani2020 said:


> but the question that baffles me ...how come a news agency report something that happened a year ago? secondly what was there source that they suddenly came out one day popping up Mar-1 delivery news when (if) the thing already happened a year ago


 
Bhai those sources were more credible than Khabrain group in my opinion. The same Khabrain group also said that Pakistan is going to test a super sonic cruise missile in October and it turned out to be same sub-sonic Babur in November. A few days ago we were told Pakistan has received Jasoos tayyarai from China. We thought it was about ZDK-03 but till now we have no clue what that news was about. So I think it is just the late reaction of typical Pakistani media about Mar-1 missiles.

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## regular

Yes! our media sleeps most of the time when we need to publish good news and wakes up when we don't need to expose anything....

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## Mani2020

Areesh said:


> Bhai those sources were more credible than Khabrain group in my opinion. The same Khabrain group also said that Pakistan is going to test a super sonic cruise missile in October and it turned out to be same sub-sonic Babur in November. A few days ago we were told Pakistan has received Jasoos tayyarai from China. We thought it was about ZDK-03 but till now we have no clue what that news was about. So I think it is just the late reaction of typical Pakistani media about Mar-1 missiles.



May it be the case...but if it is ....the media should be penalized for spreading false news...

BTW ZDk-03/spy plane news was not spreaded by khabrain group ,there were others who initiated

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