# How PAF Prevented an Israeli Attack on Pakistan's Nuclear Assets



## S_O_C_O_M

*How safe are Pakistan`s nuclear assets​*
INDIA`S explosion of its nuclear device in 1974 drew only a customary show of concern from the western powers. But Pakistan`s nuclear programmeme, initiated in response to the Indian acquisition of nuclear weapons, evoked immediate and serious concern from the same quarters. Ever since, Pakistan has been under immense pressure to scrap its programm while the Indians remain uncensored. 

That western attitude was discriminatory can also be seen by the religious colour it gave to Pakistan`s bomb by calling it an `Islamic bomb`. One has never heard of the Israeli bomb being called a `Jewish Bomb`, or the Indian bomb a `Hindu Bomb`, or the American and British bomb a `Christian Bomb` or the Soviet bomb a `Communist` (or an `Atheist) Bomb`. The West simply used Pakistan`s bomb to make Islam synonymous with aggression and make its nuclear programme a legitimate target, knowing full well that it merely served a defensive purpose and was not even remotely associated with Islam. 

With India going nuclear soon after playing a crucial role in dismembering Pakistan in 1971 and enjoying an overwhelming conventional military superiority over Pakistan in the ratio of 41, a resource strapped Pakistan was pushed to the wall. Left with no other choice but to develop a nuclear deterrent to ward off future Indian threats, Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto declared Pakistanis will eat grass but make a nuclear bomb. And sure enough, they did it. Soon, however, both he and the nuclear programme were to become non-grata. Amid intense pressure, sanctions and vilification campaign, Henry Kissinger personally delivered to a defiant Bhutto the American threat give up your nuclear programme or else we will make a horrible example of you`. 

And a horrible example was made of Bhutto for his defiance. But he had enabled Pakistan to become the 7th nuclear power in the world. This served Pakistan well. India was kept at bay despite temptations for military adventurism. Although there has never been real peace in South Asia, at least there has been no war since 1971. 

Ignoring its security perspective, Pakistan`s western `friends` refused to admit it to their exclusive nuclear club, though expediency made them ignore its `crime` when it suited their purpose. But driven by identical geo-strategic interests in their respective regions and seeing Pakistan as an obstacle to their designs, Israel and India missed no opportunity to malign or subvert Pakistan`s programme.

Due to its defiance of Indian diktat, Pakistan is for India an obstruction in its quest for domination of South Asia and the Indian Ocean region. Israel`s apprehension of Pakistan`s military prowess is rooted in the strength Pakistan indirectly provides to Arab states with whom Israel has remained in a state of conflict. Conscious that several Arab states look up to Pakistan for military support in the event of threat to their security from Israel, it is unsettling for Israel to see a nuclear armed Pakistan. 

*Israel can also not overlook the fact that Pakistan`s military is a match to its own. The PAF pilots surprised Israeli Air Force, when flying mostly Russian aircraft they shot down several relatively superior Israeli aircraft in air combat in the 1973 Arab-Israel war, shattering the invincibility myth of Israeli pilots who believed themselves to be too superior in skill and technology. The Pakistanis happened to be assigned to Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi air forces on training missions when the war broke out and, unknown to the Israelis then, they incognito undertook combat missions.

After successfully destroying Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, Israelis planned a similar attack on Pakistan`s nuclear facilities at Kahuta in collusion with India in the 1980s. Using satellite pictures and intelligence information, Israel reportedly built a full-scale mock-up of Kahuta facility in the Negev Desert where pilots of F-16 and F-15 squadrons practised mock attacks. 

According to `The Asian Age`, journalists Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark stated in their book `Deception Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy`, that Israeli Air Force was to launch an air attack on Kahuta in mid-1980s from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat (India). The book claims that in March 1984, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed off (on) the Israeli-led operation bringing India, Pakistan and Israel to within a hair`s breadth of a nuclear conflagration.

Another report claims that Israel also planned an air strike directly out of Israel. After midway and midair refueling, Israeli warplanes planned to shoot down a commercial airline`s flight over Indian Ocean that flew into Islamabad early morning, fly in a tight formation to appear as one large aircraft on radar screens preventing detection, use the drowned airliner`s call sign to enter Islamabad`s air space, knock out Kahuta and fly out to Jammu to refuel and exit. 

According to reliable reports in mid-1980s this mission was actually launched one night. But the Israelis were in for a big surprise. They discovered that Pakistan Air Force had already sounded an alert and had taken to the skies in anticipation of this attack. The mission had to be hurriedly aborted. 

Pakistan reminded the Israelis that Pakistan was no Iraq and that PAF was no Iraqi Air Force. Pakistan is reported to have conveyed that an attack on Kahuta would force Pakistan to lay waste to Dimona, Israel`s nuclear reactor in the Negev Desert. India was also warned that Islamabad would attack Trombay if Kahuta facilities were hit.

The above quoted book claims that Prime Minister Indira Gandhi eventually aborted the operation despite protests from military planners in New Delhi and Jerusalem. 

McNair`s paper #41 published by USAF Air University (India Thwarts Israeli Destruction of Pakistans Islamic Bomb) also confirmed this plan. It said, Israeli interest in destroying Pakistan`s Kahuta reactor to scuttle the Islamic bomb was blocked by Indias refusal to grant landing and refueling rights to Israeli warplanes in 1982. Clearly India wanted to see Kahuta gone but did not want to face retaliation at the hands of the PAF. Israel, on its part wanted this to be a joint Indo-Israeli strike to avoid being solely held responsible. 

The Reagan administration also hesitated to support the plan because Pakistan`s distraction at that juncture would have hurt American interests in Afghanistan, when Pakistan was steering the Afghan resistance against the Soviets. 

Although plans to hit Kahuta were shelved, the diatribe against Pakistan`s nuclear programme continued unabated. Israel used its control over the American political establishment and western media to create hysteria. India worked extensively to promote paranoia, branding Pakistan`s programme as unsafe, insecure and a threat to peace. The fact is otherwise. It is technically sounder, safer and more secure than that of India and has ensured absence of war in the region.* 

The US invasion of Afghanistan provided another opening for Indo-Israeli nexus to target Pakistan`s strategic assets. This time the strategy was to present Pakistan as an unstable state, incapable of defending itself against religious extremist insurgents, creating the spectre of Islamabad and its nuclear assets falling in their hands. Suggestions are being floated that Pakistan being at risk of succumbing to extremists, its nuclear assets should be disabled, seized or forcibly taken out by the US. Alternatively, an international agency should take them over for safe keeping. 

Pakistan has determinedly thwarted the terrorist threat and foiled this grand conspiracy. Pakistan has made it clear that it would act decisively against any attempt by any quarter to harm its nuclear assets. But if the game is taken to the next level, the consequences would be disastrous for the region. 

The Indo-Israeli nexus is losing initiative. But as long as the American umbrella is available Afghanistan will remain a playground for mischief mongers. It is now up to the US to walk its talk and prove its claim that it wants to see a secure and stable Pakistan. It must pull the plug on conspiracies to destabilize Pakistan.


How safe are Pakistan`s nuclear assets | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM

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## KS

> ...Clearly India wanted to see Kahuta gone but did not want to face retaliation at the hands of the PAF....



Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?

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## Last Hope

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?


Pakistan's Ambassador to the US clearly mentioned, addressing to the UN, that Pakistan would lay waste to India's nuclear facilities and Israel's Nuclear facilities in Negev desert. After this, India backed out hence the attack never took place.

Edit:

This article talks about the initial plan to attack Kahuta in 1980s, but failed to point at even stronger attack in 1998. It was way stronger and large on scale, with India again joining hands. All PAF fighters were in air, Mirage, F-7P, J-6 and F-16s. Every Squadron and every Air base was active 24/7 since the intelligence reports from ISI and intercepts from PAF Air Defence systems of unusual aircraft movement across border with confirmed sighting of atleast one F-16. 

The C-130s that were to transport the parts and other goods related to the project were always escorted by 4 F-16s throughout journey and other areas being controlled by CAPs. There were 'secret' instructions issued to the pilots of those 4 F-16s, that if the C-130 makes any unusual move, you are cleared to shoot it down. There is information available on deployment of AAA units, SAM units, CAP and ADA Squadrons and the number of sorties flown with everything you need to know to get idea of the hustle.

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## Safriz

In 1974 PIA planes who passed tnrough indian air space were wiped with tissue papers,and the dust was examined for radiation.
Thats how Pakistani scientists confirmed indian claims of a nuclear detonation.

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## KS

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan's Ambassador to the US clearly mentioned, addressing to the UN, that Pakistan would lay waste to India's nuclear facilities and Israel's Nuclear facilities in Negev desert. After this, India backed out hence the attack never took place.



Do you know how many Indian Nuclear facilities are there and how deep they are inside India ? If the ambassador knew geography and the relative capabilities of pAF vis-a-vis IAF he would not have said that. 

Ok let alone Indian nuclear facilities. But Israeli Negev facility. Seriously ? Did PAF have the capability to carry out such a strike 6000 kms away without refuellers at that time ?

So actually to burst the bubble, no such incident ever happened. Its just another of those paranoid conspiracy theories by the Pakistanis who seek to shore up their importance to outside world.

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## Windjammer

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?



Those at the helm were well aware hence they decided against any misadventure, and
Count your blessings that you didn't have to find out.

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## rockstarIN

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan's Ambassador to the US clearly mentioned, addressing to the UN, that Pakistan would lay waste to India's nuclear facilities and Israel's Nuclear facilities in Negev desert. After this, India backed out hence the attack never took place.




Well the below are the action reason.



> *The Reagan administration also hesitated to support the plan because Pakistan`s distraction at that juncture would have hurt American interests in Afghanistan, when Pakistan was steering the Afghan resistance against the Soviets. *


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## S_O_C_O_M

for stupid people who claim conspiracy theories to suit their infeority complex.

</title><meta name="CreatedBy" content="WP Internet Publisher 6.1"></head><body><title>McNair Paper 41, Radical Responses to Radical Regimes: Evaluating Preemptive Counter-Proliferation, May 1995

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## KS

Windjammer said:


> Those at the helm were well aware hence they decided against any misadventure, and
> Count your blessings that you didn't have to find out.



Or such an incident never really happened except in the fertile minds of some conspiracy theorists.

PAF at its height in 65 did not have capability to dominate Indian skies few dozen kms inside border and they are talking of carrying out a strike almost 1000 kms into the border at Mumbai and 6000 kms at Negev and that too in the 80s when IAF enjoyed a much greater advantage over the PAF.

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## arp2041

Actually i have heard this story, RAW brought the blue prints of Kahuta nuclear reactor at the time when Morarji Desai was the PM of India, they wanted more money to thwart the nuclear ambitions of Pakistan, but our great PM rejected the plans & instead made it aware to Pakistan that India knows what they are doing thus the mole inside Pakistan who passed the blue print to RAW was exposed & killed by Pakistan agencies & what Morarji Desai got is Nishan-e-Pakistan from Pakistan (it's highest civilian order) becoming the only Indian to got the same.

Our PM MMS is working to get another for an Indian (himself) by planning to vacate Siachin unconditionally.

Here's the link:

RAW & Mossad: The Secret Link



> RAW officials had alerted him about the Zia-ul Haq regime's plans to acquire nuclear capability. While French assistance to Pakistan for a plutonium reprocessing plant was well known, the uranium enrichment plant at Kahuta was a secret. After the French stopped helping Islamabad [ Images ] under pressure from the Carter administration, Pakistan was determined to keep the Kahuta plant a secret. Islamabad did not want Washington to prevent its commissioning.
> 
> RAW agents were shocked when Desai called Zia and told the Pakistani military dictator: 'General, I know what you are up to in Kahuta. RAW has got me all the details.' The prime minister's indiscretion threatened to expose RAW sources.

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## Windjammer

KS said:


> Or such an incident never really happened except in the fertile minds of some conspiracy theorists.
> 
> PAF at its height in 65 did not have capability to dominate Indian skies few dozen kms inside border and they are talking of carrying out a strike almost 1000 kms into the border at Mumbai and 6000 kms at Negev and that too in the 80s when IAF enjoyed a much greater advantage over the PAF.


There is an acute difference between maintaining air superiority and carrying out a surprise surgical strike.
You are also forgetting that in the 80s, PAF was very much present in Middle East, in fact it was in the mid-80s, Colonel Qaddafi asked PAF personal on secondment to Libya, to attack the US Task force which was menacing the Libyan coast.

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## Stealth

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?



Can somebody (especially Indian Military or Govt official) explain this **** why not Indian AF did Surgical strike after 26/11!

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## MadDog

Absolute non sense, this article has been circulated through out various blogs, we Pakistanis love to believe in conspiracy theories. Israel has nothing to with Pakistan, last time any Israeli leader mentioned Pakistan it was *Shimon Peres who prayed for Musharaf*. Infact, *in 2010 Israelis offered Pakistan to sell their guided munitions for PAF for war on terror*, an offer which was rejected by PAF. This was stated by Pakistan Air chief in a speech. Recently *Pakistan Airforce also bought aircraft refueling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey.*

*I am still wondering how senior and respected members on this forum like "WindJammer" are agreeing with this delusional article.*

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## KS

Stealth said:


> Can somebody (especially Indian Military or Govt official) explain this **** why not Indian AF did Surgical strike after 26/11!



That is because those surgical strikes were another figment of Pakistani imagination. No one in the Govt or military ever made that statement.


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## Hyperion

This story is true! I wonder how such things get declassified

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## Hyperion

arp2041 said:


> Actually i have heard this story, RAW brought the blue prints of Kahuta nuclear reactor at the time when Morarji Desai was the PM of India, they wanted more money to thwart the nuclear ambitions of Pakistan, but our great PM rejected the plans & instead made it aware to Pakistan that India knows what they are doing thus the mole inside Pakistan who passed the blue print to RAW was exposed & killed by Pakistan agencies & what Morarji Desai got is Nishan-e-Pakistan from Pakistan (it's highest civilian order) becoming the only Indian to got the same.
> 
> Our PM MMS is working to get another for an Indian (himself) by planning to vacate Siachin unconditionally.
> 
> Here's the link:
> 
> RAW & Mossad: The Secret Link



This is true as well.. If I am not mistaken the agent was a Lt. Col...

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## Dr. Strangelove

arp2041 said:


> Actually i have heard this story, RAW brought the blue prints of Kahuta nuclear reactor at the time when Morarji Desai was the PM of India, they wanted more money to thwart the nuclear ambitions of Pakistan, but our great PM rejected the plans & instead made it aware to Pakistan that India knows what they are doing thus the mole inside Pakistan who passed the blue print to RAW was exposed & killed by Pakistan agencies & what Morarji Desai got is Nishan-e-Pakistan from Pakistan (it's highest civilian order) becoming the only Indian to got the same.
> 
> Our PM MMS is working to get another for an Indian (himself) by planning to vacate Siachin unconditionally.
> 
> Here's the link:
> 
> RAW & Mossad: The Secret Link



its trueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee............................toooooooooooo

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## SamranAli

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?



Dont live in state of denial.

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## The Deterrent

Last Hope said:


> Every Squadron and every Air base was active 24/7 since the intelligence reports from ISI and intercepts from PAF Air Defence systems of unusual aircraft movement across border with confirmed sighting of atleast one F-16.



I read somewhere that the F-16 was our own, spotted in Baluchistan, and mistaken to be an Israeli one because of some issues with identification. 
But the event was negatively exaggerated I guess.

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## rockstarIN

AhaseebA said:


> I read somewhere that the F-16 was our own, spotted in Baluchistan, and mistaken to be an Israeli one because of some issues with identification.
> But the event was negatively exaggerated I guess.



if you see F-16s in India, it might be of Singapore Air force, they have F-16 blk 52s which used to be stationed in India. (But not the Pak border off course)


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## Windjammer

rockstar said:


> if you see F-16s in India, it might be of Singapore Air force, they have F-16 blk 52s which used to be stationed in India. (But not the Pak border off course)



Not in 1998.

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## Last Hope

AhaseebA said:


> I read somewhere that the F-16 was our own, spotted in Baluchistan, and mistaken to be an Israeli one because of some issues with identification.
> But the event was negatively exaggerated I guess.


Some sources say that sometime before the explosion, F-16(s) was spotted and it was thought that Israeli F-16 made it past PAF defences and have arrived to do the job. I personally don't believe this to be true, neither can confirm it. 

But there were Israeli F-16s operating from India, and the time of the explosion, there was atleast one F-16 which was flying near the border for data capturing, according to PAF Air Defence radars.

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## rockstarIN

Windjammer said:


> Not in 1998.



well, they got eh F-16 deliveries from 1988 itself.


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## INDIC

Windjammer said:


> Not in 1998.



Why would an F-16 from eastern corner of bordering India to western corner of Pakistan in Balochistan, some conspiracy theory in Pakistan say it was planned to be sent from Srinagar airport deep into Pakistan at Chagai(total distance?)

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## alibaz

rockstar said:


> well, they got eh F-16 deliveries from 1988 itself.



No blk 52's in 1998

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## Last Hope

Gigawatt said:


> Why would an F-16 from eastern corner of bordering India to western corner of Pakistan in Balochistan, some conspiracy theory in Pakistan say it was planned to be sent from Srinagar airport deep into Pakistan at Chagai(total distance?)



This is Kahuta, where the Kahuta Research Laboratories are based. 







They were the first Nuclear research labs, and were the target from Indo-Israel attack in 1980s.

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## Windjammer

rockstar said:


> well, they got eh F-16 deliveries from 1988 itself.



And when did IAF and SAF held their first exercise. ?? !!

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## v9s

KS said:


> Or such an incident never really happened except in the fertile minds of some conspiracy theorists.
> 
> PAF at its height in 65 did not have capability to dominate Indian skies few dozen kms inside border and they are talking of carrying out a strike almost 1000 kms into the border at Mumbai and 6000 kms at Negev and that too in the 80s when IAF enjoyed a much greater advantage over the PAF.



First of all: </title><meta name="CreatedBy" content="WP Internet Publisher 6.1"></head><body><title>McNair Paper 41, Radical Responses to Radical Regimes: Evaluating Preemptive Counter-Proliferation, May 1995

Now, look at this another way. If Israel could ask India for cooperation regarding bombing Kahuta, you think we couldn't ask Saudi Arabia for assistance (refueling, etc) in bombing Negev?

Compared to Israel, India's a walk in the park (before you start frothing at the mouth, i'm talking about a surgical strike...perhaps even a one-way mission).

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## rockstarIN

alibaz said:


> No blk 52's in 1998


In fact they started getting it from 1998.


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## rockstarIN

alibaz said:


> No blk 52's in 1998


In fact they started getting it from 1998.


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## alibaz

rockstar said:


> In fact they started getting it from 1998.




In fact they got first one on 14 Aug 1998 about three months after tests. Three Ds and one C were the first consignment which landed at Tengah AB. It must have taken some time to reach India for some exercise.

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## wakapdf

This is just another article to satisfy the ego of Pakistanis in light of recent events taking place in middle east, specially in Gaza. Just to show that PAF is superior than IAF, which is clearly not the case. In today's battlefield, tech counts! not individual skill. Why need skill when you can shoot down enemy with bvr's. This article/report is more of a ego thing than anything else. Our capabilities were blown during OBL raid! Israel's tech is better! you do the math...

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## Viper0011.

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?



This had happened more than just once. In a second scenario, it was reported that when India was to attack Pakistan, the Indian ambassador was woken up in the middle of the night by the Pakistani military and was dragged to the presidential palace, apparently, on the way, he could hear the jets scrambling. He was then given a flight path of 45 minutes to some Indian installations and was asked by the Pakistani president to contact his government and let them know that Pakistan is aware of what's about to happen. 
However, Pakistan wasn't exactly prepare to stop a massive military attack so it had to resort to the last option. The Indian ambassador then conveyed to his government and immediately settled the situation down. 

There are many examples of when both the countries went on the brink of nuclear war or at least threaten each other with the nuke option. Same happened after Kargil and after the 2002 parliament attack when India threatened to retaliate and go nuclear if need be. 

The point is, that there is NO reason for either of the country to do things to the other one that lets to a situation like this (both use extensive proxies). The ONLY solution available for Indo-Pak situation is called PEACE. It doesn't matter who's military is big and who's smaller....the end game is just extremely dangerous!!! 
You are putting hundreds of millions of lives at risk. Poor people that don't really care for what goes on between the militaries or the political parties on either side. People that are struggling to make ends meat, and are just trying to live their life to provide a better future for their kids. What are they doing wrong to deserve a nuclear war???

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## SQ8

*KEEP IT CIVIL
Or turn pink.. AT BEST.*

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## krash

wakapdf said:


> This is just another article to satisfy the ego of Pakistanis in light of recent events taking place in middle east, specially in Gaza. Just to show that PAF is superior than IAF, which is clearly not the case. In today's battlefield, tech counts! not individual skill. Why need skill when you can shoot down enemy with bvr's. This article/report is more of a ego thing than anything else. Our capabilities were blown during OBL raid! Israel's tech is better! you do the math...





MadDog said:


> Absolute non sense, this article has been circulated through out various blogs, we Pakistanis love to believe in conspiracy theories. Israel has nothing to with Pakistan, last time any Israeli leader mentioned Pakistan it was *Shimon Peres who prayed for Musharaf*. Infact, *in 2010 Israelis offered Pakistan to sell their guided munitions for PAF for war on terror*, an offer which was rejected by PAF. This was stated by Pakistan Air chief in a speech. Recently *Pakistan Airforce also bought aircraft refueling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey.*
> 
> *I am still wondering how senior and respected members on this forum like "WindJammer" are agreeing with this delusional article.*




We also love to pretend objectivity and brush away everything as a conspiracy theory. 


Anyway, since this whole story has been told now and before I might as well add my own account to it. I was staying at my uncle's (then a Group Captain) at Chaklala. My dad remembers waking up and seeing my uncle fully dressed in uniform in the middle of the night ready to leave. My dad also remembers sirens being sounded at the base. My uncle left having said that something big was happening and that he'd discuss it when he got back. So when he came back in the morning he told this story. Reportedly, the PAF and the Pakistani authorities had been notified by a certain friendly country which had observed Israeli F-16s with a refueler passing overhead inbound towards Pakistan. This coupled with the previous intelligence reports everything made sense for the PAF without a second mention. Everything was put on high alert and birds were scrambled. After taking the countermeasures Pakistan again was contacted by the said friendly country and the Israelis were reported as going back home. 

So for the Pakistanis who dispute this I am sorry but these stories are actually true. 

PS: Being objective does not dictate that everything and anything that sounds unlikely be dismissed. In fact it demands that you investigate it and not come to any conclusion until it is proven or disproved.

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## SQ8

A reading of this is better for those interested in meaningful discussion.
others may wait to wear their pink tutus soon.
Aeronaut: Like the Lovers' Secret

There was definitely something in the cards.
Back in the 80's the idea of an Israeli attack on Pakistans nuclear facility was very real.
However, Our "finger in the pie" military procurement decided to capitalize on this by buying Mistral MANPADS to tackle an attack which was probably going to be based on stand off weapons.

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## airmarshal

Do you still have doubts who is your enemy. India will always be the enemy. No matter how many 'amn ki asha' stupidities you indulge in, it remains a fact.

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## Kompromat

Oscar said:


> A reading of this is better for those interested in meaningful discussion.
> others may wait to wear their pink tutus soon.
> Aeronaut: Like the Lovers' Secret
> 
> There was definitely something in the cards.
> Back in the 80's the idea of an Israeli attack on Pakistans nuclear facility was very real.
> However, Our "finger in the pie" military procurement decided to capitalize on this by buying Mistral MANPADS to tackle an attack which was probably going to be based on stand off weapons.




The "details" are classified, been told that if and when they come out - they would be shocking. I, heard that PAF had ordered its pilots to ram the air crafts into the enemy jets if it comes to that and PAF therefore conducted specialized training for pilots to do just that.

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## SQ8

Aeronaut said:


> The "details" are classified, been told that if and when they come out - they would be shocking. I, heard that PAF had ordered its pilots to ram the air crafts into the enemy jets if it comes to that and PAF therefore conducted specialized training for pilots to do just that.



Not as such specialized training, Just basic orders to use the F-16's stronger wing roots to ram into the C-130's vertical tail. Ensure that enough damage was caused to the C-130 to bring it down with the F-16.

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## Kompromat

Oscar said:


> Not as such specialized training, Just basic orders to use the F-16's stronger wing roots to ram into the C-130's vertical tail. Ensure that enough damage was caused to the *C-130* to bring it down with the F-16.



C-130s wont be invading Pakistani air space would they?

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## JonAsad

Oscar said:


> Not as such specialized training, Just basic orders to use the F-16's stronger wing roots to ram into the C-130's vertical tail. Ensure that enough damage was caused to the C-130 to bring it down with the F-16.



Thats a surprise- C130 cannot be taken out by missiles or cannons?-

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## Kaniska

I donot unerstand again...why the hail Israel will unnecessary involve itself directly to India and Pakistan conflict?? Sometimes people from both and India and Pakistan just love to create nice gossip around Israel....It may be a taboo too for journalists to get attention....

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## irfan1173

AoA
The fear of Israel' attacking our nuclear facilities was real in the past and may be real in future, but the question is whether this incident really happened or not. I have spoken to many(military folks) on this issue and got a mixed response. Some swear it happened and the other swear never happened. Those who swear it happened all claim the same that our good friends the saudi's warned us against an incoming strike package spotted by their AWACS/ground radars. But when asked that how any Radar know the final destination of this so called strike package,come the response that you navy men won't understand how AWACS work.Maybe the saudi's AWACS had sensors to read the mind of the israeli's pilot mind I dont know or may be the israeli's decided to share the flight path with the saudi's as a goodwill gesture we'll never know.

The story has loopholes and their is nothing in it to remain classified if it even happned. In fact it would serve our interest to declassify it as it would make the public aware of our security threats and what not.

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## 1ndy

We had the chance to stop Pakistan from getting nuclear weapons in past but we missed it now we better to engage with Pakistan in economics and trade until we get our balistic blanket deployed to cover every single inch of our mother land.


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## VCheng

Aeronaut said:


> The "details" are classified, been told that if and when they come out - they would be shocking. I, heard that *PAF had ordered its pilots to ram the air crafts into the enemy jets if it comes to that* and PAF therefore conducted specialized training for pilots to do just that.





Oscar said:


> Not as such specialized training, *Just basic orders to use the F-16's stronger wing roots to ram into the C-130's vertical tail*. Ensure that enough damage was caused to the C-130 to bring it down with the F-16.



Interesting that on one hand, there are vehement proclamations that the F-16s can be used exactly as PAF wishes, and on the other hand, there are plans and training to use the F-16s as glorified battering rams if it does not work under certain circumstances.

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## Contrarian

Pakistani's and their military glorified conspiracy theories!

I wonder how many times Pakistani's come up with their theories that show a fierce, brave and fearless Pakistani military that cowed down adversaries like India/Israel and nowadays US. 
*
The last awesome one i heard was that Musharraf told Vajpayee or some other Indian leader that if we die there are hundreds of millions of Muslims left, but if you die there are no Hindus left. And ofcourse, the shaking Indian leader left with a wimp and ofcourse..never attacked.*

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## Safriz

Its Israel's own Paranoia...
I dont think Pakistan will ever want to or ever wanted to launch a large scale nuclear attack on Israel.

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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Interesting that on one hand, there are vehement proclamations that the F-16s can be used exactly as PAF wishes, and on the other hand, there are plans and training to use the F-16s as glorified battering rams if it does not work under certain circumstances.



You are taking two different scenario's and patching it.
The Ramming technique was for the C-130's if all else failed..say in a scenario where the F-16's had to engage an enemy which had hijackers on board the C-130 and had sent air assets to escort it out.
In case the PAF saw that it was unable to stop the C-130 in time from leavings its airspace while its fighting a force.. the fighter was to ram it .. a sure shot technique to bring it down.

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## Safriz

Contrarian said:


> Pakistani's and their military glorified conspiracy theories!
> 
> I wonder how many times Pakistani's come up with their theories that show a fierce, brave and fearless Pakistani military that cowed down adversaries like India/Israel and nowadays US.
> *
> The last awesome one i heard was that Musharraf told Vajpayee or some other Indian leader that if we die there are hundreds of millions of Muslims left, but if you die there are no Hindus left. And ofcourse, the shaking Indian leader left with a wimp and ofcourse..never attacked.*



Didnt Israel attack and destroy Iraqi reactors?

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## Last Hope

Oscar said:


> Not as such specialized training, Just basic orders to use the F-16's stronger wing roots to ram into the C-130's vertical tail. Ensure that enough damage was caused to the C-130 to bring it down with the F-16.


Actually, during the last flights when the 'material' was finally being transferred to Chagai, four F-16s escorted the C-130. The pilots were given orders at last moment, secretive and away from ears of all others, that if the C-130 does something funny or any attempt to hijack it occurs, just shoot down the C-130 and if that does not work, ram into the bird but bring that down at all cost and ensuring it gets damaged so does the shipment.


Aeronaut said:


> C-130s wont be invading Pakistani air space would they?


Read above, Pakistani C-130s carrying the detonators and devices. There were chances of EW suites jamming the communication, and then take the C-130s or even the pilot being sold off. It was crucial, a small mistake and everything fails. Read the blog of Sir K.Tufail posted by Oscar, or furthermore, contact him.

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## Windjammer

One story from 1998 was that a friendly country monitored the Israeli aircraft headings and notified Pakistan of their possible destination, further intelligence revealed that there were Israeli F-16s present in India, that's when Pakistani foreign ministry made some late night calls to some Western capitals as well as Peking and Moscow making them aware of the situation and threatening a full retaliation in case of any misadventure. Apparently the Israeli ambassador to Washington got in touch with the Pakistani counterpart and suggested, any misunderstanding should be dealt directly by the two countries. In due course, Israel, which first denied the issue, later admitted that it's aircraft were in India......for a joint exercise.

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## SQ8

JonAsad said:


> Thats a surprise- C130 cannot be taken out by missiles or cannons?-



That was in case the C-130 was hijacked or otherwise.. and a hostile force had come to escort it out.
If the F-16's ran out of ammo or were not able to bring the bird down due to being engaged by hostile forces... they were to ram it to bring it down over Pakistani airspace.

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## Safriz

The most vivid memory of the nuclear test,that will remain in our memories will be....

The diappearing of all our foreign currency accounts

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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> You are taking two different scenario's and patching it.
> The Ramming technique was for the C-130's if all else failed..say in a scenario where the F-16's had to engage an enemy which had hijackers on board the C-130 and had sent air assets to escort it out.
> In case the PAF saw that it was unable to stop the C-130 in time from leavings its airspace while its fighting a force.. the fighter was to ram it .. a sure shot technique to bring it down.



So it is just a desperate last resort rather than any lack of confidence in the capabilities of the F-16? Right you are.


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## Strigon

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?



The very same where your leader's balls dropped off after making a full plan of 'strategic strikes' in Pakistan's various locations after Mumbai blasts. Your leaders have a lot more brains than you, go back to video games since you don't understand jack sh*t about strategy and consequences of nuclear war.

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## Windjammer

Contrarian said:


> Pakistani's and their military glorified conspiracy theories!
> 
> I wonder how many times Pakistani's come up with their theories that show a fierce, brave and fearless Pakistani military that cowed down adversaries like India/Israel and nowadays US.
> *
> The last awesome one i heard was that Musharraf told Vajpayee or some other Indian leader that if we die there are hundreds of millions of Muslims left, but if you die there are no Hindus left. And ofcourse, the shaking Indian leader left with a wimp and ofcourse..never attacked.*



You are mixing your Apples and Oranges....that incident took place between Zia and Rajiv during the famous Cricket diplomacy.

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## SQ8

Contrarian said:


> Pakistani's and their military glorified conspiracy theories!
> 
> I wonder how many times Pakistani's come up with their theories that show a f*ierce, brave and fearless Pakistani military that cowed down adversaries like India/Israel and nowadays US. *
> *
> The last awesome one i heard was that Musharraf told Vajpayee or some other Indian leader that if we die there are hundreds of millions of Muslims left, but if you die there are no Hindus left. And ofcourse, the shaking Indian leader left with a wimp and ofcourse..never attacked.*



Thats all very well said.. but isnt that what most nations do? Including India?
The Likes of Zee Tv and Pran Chopra have on occasion left even Zaid Hamid to shame.

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## Windjammer

VCheng said:


> So it is just a desperate last resort rather than any lack of confidence in the capabilities of the F-16? Right you are.



I think it can be termed as keeping all options open. !!


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## VCheng

Windjammer said:


> I think it can be termed as keeping all options open. !!



I can understand that clearly.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Does anyone have any neutral source for this ? A non-Pakistani source please ?


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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


> *One story from 1998 was that a friendly country monitored the Israeli aircraft headings and notified Pakistan of their possible destination, further intelligence revealed that there were Israeli F-16s present in India,* that's when Pakistani foreign ministry made some late night calls to some Western capitals as well as Peking and Moscow making them aware of the situation and threatening a full retaliation in case of any misadventure. Apparently the Israeli ambassador to Washington got in touch with the Pakistani counterpart and suggested, any misunderstanding should be dealt directly by the two countries. In due course, Israel, which first denied the issue, later admitted that it's aircraft were in India......for a joint exercise.


That is absolutely true! I know the person's name but cannot recall, will post when I do. 

Plus, all the scientists working on the nuclear program were tried to be bought out by the United States. One such incident happened in early days of _May 1998 (I believe)_, during the hot and tensed period, that one person presented himself to the American Embassy claiming to be working for KRL. They made him a passport, got him the Visa and flight overnight! It latter turned out to be false news, he was just an engineer who made use of the opportunity to move to USA.

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## Windjammer

VCheng said:


> I can understand that clearly.



But i guess the "Mela Angreez " can never be contained.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Strigon said:


> *The very same where your leader's balls dropped off after making a full plan of 'strategic strikes' in Pakistan's various locations after Mumbai blasts.* Your leaders have a lot more brains than you, go back to video games since you don't understand jack sh*t about strategy and consequences of nuclear war.



Show me one statement of Indian leaders threatening strategic strikes after Mumbai blasts

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## Strigon

Syama Ayas said:


> Show me one statement of Indian leaders threatening strategic strikes after Mumbai blasts



Such statements are usually not made public but intelligence reports did suggest that India was planning to take out 'training camps' and a few 'leaders' of groups it has its eyes on in Pakistan with surgical strikes. Its almost the same issue one with Israel- Pakistan being discussed right now. No open statements but plan and intent was there, balls just dropped off.

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## Viper0011.

JonAsad said:


> Thats a surprise- C130 cannot be taken out by missiles or cannons?-



These F-16's were without weapons. The story has it that there was a fear that some pilot may go rogue and destroy the C-130 by firing on it. The purpose behind this was to ensure that the equipment made it safe. If the C-130 was to change routes, then the pilots were ordered to smash their plane into C-130's engines and eject. 
Then there were fighter pilots told to use their Radars and visuals as the ground control could've been jammed with Israeli F-16's electronic suite or duplicate erroneous communication may have been established. So the pilots were instructed to use their own radar and their visuals around the sites. Due to this, a PAF F-16 belonging to a different squadron was perceived as a threat as it modified its flight path just a little and cause panic, resulting in half a dozen F-16 to be re-routed towards Chaghai.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Strigon said:


> *Such statements are usually not made public but intelligence reports did suggest that India* was planning to take out 'training camps' and a few 'leaders' of groups it has its eyes on in Pakistan with surgical strikes.



In other words you have no proof, 



> Its almost the same issue one with Israel- Pakistan being discussed right now. No open statements but plan and intent was there, balls just dropped off.



More like bravado statements with no factual backing, . 

Here is an example of _balls just dropped off. _



> The bad news is that the militants are driving the agenda; the Pakistan military has too few forces to fight too many battles at one time. *They have more troops on the Indian border but felt the need to transfer 5,000-7,000 troops from FATA to the eastern border in the wake of increased Indo-Pak tensions after Mumbai.* The latest territorial loss has been in Swat, in the "settled area" of the Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP) about 90 miles from Islamabad, where local/taliban militants are closing schools, beheading opponents, and operating a parallel justice system. The police cannot cope and largely have abandoned locals to their fate.



Scenesetter For Special Envoy Holbrooke

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## Viper0011.

Kaniska said:


> I donot unerstand again...why the hail Israel will unnecessary involve itself directly to India and Pakistan conflict?? Sometimes people from both and India and Pakistan just love to create nice gossip around Israel....It may be a taboo too for journalists to get attention....



Israel's obsession wasn't with India or Pakistan...it was with the 'Islamic Bomb'. And to some degree, they have a right to feel that way. If Iran or others issue daily statements saying Israel should be 'wiped' out of the map....what would you do??
If India made these statements towards Pakistan....what would be the reaction to that and vis-a-vis.....so that's that.

However, Israel has come to terms with the Pakistanis in a way that both the nations know that they are not enemies and a threat to each other. I think that's good progress. Now the same needs to happen between India and Pakistan and they should create an economic block. I think all negativity aside on this thread. But let's take the resolution that 2015 shouldn't be a year of tensions between the Indians and the Pakistanis. People here on this SITE can take that initiative and spread it. How long will this drama, tit for tat really last?

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## Strigon

Syama Ayas said:


> In other words you have no proof,
> 
> 
> 
> More like bravado statements with no factual backing, for the satisfaction of conspiracy soaked populace.



Just like I said before, these statements and actions are kept secret for some reason. Its already being discussed in the thread if you pay attention but then again denial where its convenient has almost become a hobby for Indians. 



> The bad news is that the militants are driving the agenda; the Pakistan military has too few forces to fight too many battles at one time. They have more troops on the Indian border but felt the need to transfer 5,000-7,000 troops from FATA to the eastern border in the wake of increased Indo-Pak tensions after Mumbai. The latest territorial loss has been in Swat, in the "settled area" of the Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP) about 90 miles from Islamabad, where local/taliban militants are closing schools, beheading opponents, and operating a parallel justice system. The police cannot cope and largely have abandoned locals to their fate.



Fighting Taliban is one thing, fighting India means nuclear war. Not many troops needed for that, besides its India's aggression and capability of hitting Pakistan and getting away with it being reviewed not the other way round. Plus to sum it all up, one intelligent person in this thread later on said maximum benefit of Indo-Pak war is to China. Your leaders also know this.

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## Meengla

KS said:


> Ok let alone Indian nuclear facilities. But Israeli Negev facility. Seriously ? Did PAF have the capability to carry out such a strike 6000 kms away without refuellers at that time ?
> 
> So actually to burst the bubble, no such incident ever happened. Its just another of those paranoid conspiracy theories by the Pakistanis who seek to shore up their importance to outside world.



May be in the 1980's Pakistan didn't have the capability to strike Dimona. I am not sure even now Pakistani missiles can reach there without being shot down--it is a long distance.

However, it is true that Pakistan's nukes have been in some countries' target for a long time. Perhaps as early as 1974 when ZAB actively started Pakistan's nuclear program--Kissinger's warning to ZAB about 'horrible example' is just one obvious memory. I have been a subscriber to Time Magazine. The primary reason I started the subscription was to go through the archives--they go back to 1923! Upon random readings of archives it is apparent that Pakistani nukes were a grave concern even during the 80's Afghan War and there were articles/worries about how to prevent Israel from launching an attack against Pakistani nuclear facilities. And why not?! To the West (read: America+Israel) Pakistan is part of the 'Greater Middle East' and is part of the USCENTCOM responsibility--even though Pakistan is geographically a South Asian nation. And Pakistanis crossed a red-line when ZAB actively backed Arabs in the 1973 war.
I wouldn't blame Israel for what they would try to do to the Pakistani nukes. By the admission of Dr. Qadir Khan Pakistani top planners wanted to arm Iran with nukes. However, for India to get involved with Israel will have long lasting damage for the sub-continent. Not only Pakistani missiles have multiplied greatly in numbers but they have much longer reach than in the 80's and are far more powerful than the 80s' ones. India will be pushed back decades in an all out war with Pakistan. Yes, I know Pakistan will pay a heavy price. But that should not be a consolation to India. Chinese will be all too happy in this scenario.

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## Bratva

Contrarian said:


> Pakistani's and their military glorified conspiracy theories!
> 
> I wonder how many times Pakistani's come up with their theories that show a fierce, brave and fearless Pakistani military that cowed down adversaries like India/Israel and nowadays US.
> *
> The last awesome one i heard was that Musharraf told Vajpayee or some other Indian leader that if we die there are hundreds of millions of Muslims left, but if you die there are no Hindus left. And ofcourse, the shaking Indian leader left with a wimp and ofcourse..never attacked.*



Some time ago, RAW passed the intelligence to government that 3 pakistani terrorists about to stuck again. Security intensified, Your Police were on red alert. Later these 3 Pakistani's were found out to be small traders in a computer center in Lahore.

It's how intelligence business works, You got a lead, but sometimes due to urgency you decided not to look deep in to it and decides take precautionary measures first and then investigate further.

But the Indians attitude in this thread is totally pathetic and their obsession with "conspiracy theory" is very much. 

If PAF went all in in the month of May 1998, than it clearly showed that whatever intel they got was enough to make them crazy That's how intel business works, if you don't know than stop commenting in this thread!

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## Contrarian

Oscar said:


> Thats all very well said.. *but isnt that what most nations do? Including India?*
> The Likes of Zee Tv and Pran Chopra have on occasion left even Zaid Hamid to shame.



Not really. The extent of these conspiracy theories that have vast social acceptance showing a martial Pakistani military is absolutely unprecedented and unlikely in most nations.

While there are takers of conspiracy theories in India, the volume of them gaining social acceptance is ridiculously low. And its not for any kind of seal put on the mouths of people from gossiping.

As a nation it is much to do with the fact that Pakistan is an underachiever in all endeavours - from military victories to world technology *and then* wishing fiercely to constantly equal and better any match of India. This need(not a desire) to better India risen out of the trauma of partition - affecting India equally i may add. Failure is thus not accepted and an alternate reality is spun around hiding failures and creating glories.

The second reason is that Pakistan has always self-styled/imagined itself as the defender/fortress of Islam. Anything less than glory belies that claim. Pakistan's desire to be more Islamic than the Caliph. Thus the need to present such. And when the opportunity presents, its a zionist waiting to take down an Islamic Pakistan but the military prevented it.

Third, since its the military directly or indirectly running Pakistan, their need to show themselves as superior is a must as their credibility/capability and the need of such a big apparatus must be justified in front of people. Why the people must willingly suffer yet happily give more to the military. Thus control over Pakistan depends on it. They must show that the people made the right choice by giving them resources, that they have 'prevented' many things from happening.

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## VCheng

Contrarian said:


> .............
> As a nation it is much to do with the fact that Pakistan is an underachiever in all endeavours - from military victories to world technology *and then* wishing fiercely to constantly equal and better any match of India. Failure is thus not accepted and an alternate reality is spun around hiding failures and creating glories.



Hey, as long as it works!

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## Fieldmarshal

AhaseebA said:


> I read somewhere that the F-16 was our own, spotted in Baluchistan, and mistaken to be an Israeli one because of some issues with identification.
> But the event was negatively exaggerated I guess.



maray bhai all ac come with IFF, it is not like this is 1916 where u have to identify an ac visually.


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## Kaniska

orangzaib said:


> Israel's obsession wasn't with India or Pakistan...it was with the 'Islamic Bomb'. And to some degree, they have a right to feel that way. If Iran or others issue daily statements saying Israel should be 'wiped' out of the map....what would you do??
> If India made these statements towards Pakistan....what would be the reaction to that and vis-a-vis.....so that's that.
> 
> However, Israel has come to terms with the Pakistanis in a way that both the nations know that they are not enemies and a threat to each other. I think that's good progress. Now the same needs to happen between India and Pakistan and they should create an economic block. I think all negativity aside on this thread. But let's take the resolution that 2015 shouldn't be a year of tensions between the Indians and the Pakistanis. People here on this SITE can take that initiative and spread it. How long will this drama, tit for tat really last?



I understand..I appreciate your sensible response....I feel that India and its people are slowly evolving into a mindset where they are coming in terms with good relation with Pakistan...Pakistan should really give a due credit to its political forces that they are really able to achieve one kind of stability in the foreign policy wrt to India in last 5 year....Beleive me ...todays generaton of India and Pakistan understand the necessity to have trade and economy with each other keeping aside enmity between us....Being friendly with each other is a necessity than luxury....so hardly any of the nut politician can stop it...

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## mitth

Manyof them play great game against Pakistan....

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## Meengla

I am out of here...will just say this though: "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean there is no one out to get you" (paraphrased). Because Pakistanis feel besieged and have to resort to conspiracy theories doesn't mean there are no compelling geo-strategic reasons to neutralize Pakistan's nuclear weapons. And most probably that's why Pakistani planners are rapidly making and dispersing nukes in Pakistan since 2001 like there is no tomorrow!

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## Contrarian

Meengla said:


> India will be pushed back decades in an all out war with Pakistan. Yes, I know Pakistan will pay a heavy price. But that should not be a consolation to India. *Chinese will be all too happy in this scenario.*


*
As a matter of fact you are more than right. The maximum benefit that an Indo-Pak war would yield is to China. It is in their best interests that India and Pakistan remain rivals and fight.*

The maximum benefit of an Indo-China war is to US. 
One of the very many reasons why China will never join a fight against India for Pakistan.

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## Last Hope

orangzaib said:


> *These F-16's were without weapons. The story has it that there was a fear that some pilot may go rogue and destroy the C-130 by firing on it.* The purpose behind this was to ensure that the equipment made it safe. If the C-130 was to change routes, then the pilots were ordered to smash their plane into C-130's engines and eject.
> Then there were fighter pilots told to use their Radars and visuals as the ground control could've been jammed with Israeli F-16's electronic suite or duplicate erroneous communication may have been established. So the pilots were instructed to use their own radar and their visuals around the sites. Due to this, a PAF F-16 belonging to a different squadron was perceived as a threat as it modified its flight path just a little and cause panic, resulting in half a dozen F-16 to be re-routed towards Chaghai.



The bold part is my first time reading it. 

The radars and avionics of the F-16s were supposed to be shut down too, to avoid any Israeli interceptor get to know about their presence. It was a time when hell had broken down on PAF. We may complain against the leadership of Army and Air Force being corrupt and selfish, I will not comment on it, but you must admit that fact that the quick yet bold actions taken during the time are laudable. These 'totkay' worked out pretty fine when there was no time for proper planning, war was at gate and time was the biggest enemy, taking this country to stone age with it.

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## jahangeer yousaf

MadDog said:


> Absolute non sense, this article has been circulated through out various blogs, we Pakistanis love to believe in conspiracy theories. Israel has nothing to with Pakistan, last time any Israeli leader mentioned Pakistan it was *Shimon Peres who prayed for Musharaf*. Infact, *in 2010 Israelis offered Pakistan to sell their guided munitions for PAF for war on terror*, an offer which was rejected by PAF. This was stated by Pakistan Air chief in a speech. Recently *Pakistan Airforce also bought aircraft refueling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey.*
> 
> *I am still wondering how senior and respected members on this forum like "WindJammer" are agreeing with this delusional article.*



denying is good but denying what should not be denied is wired .... come out of love of IsraHell...

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## monitor

orangzaib said:


> *These F-16's were without weapons. The story has it that there was a fear that some pilot may go rogue and destroy the C-130 by firing on it. *The purpose behind this was to ensure that the equipment made it safe. If the C-130 was to change routes, then the pilots were ordered to smash their plane into C-130's engines and eject.
> Then there were fighter pilots told to use their Radars and visuals as the ground control could've been jammed with Israeli F-16's electronic suite or duplicate erroneous communication may have been established. So the pilots were instructed to use their own radar and their visuals around the sites. Due to this, a PAF F-16 belonging to a different squadron was perceived as a threat as it modified its flight path just a little and cause panic, resulting in half a dozen F-16 to be re-routed towards Chaghai.



first time i am reading such information .is that so ? you cannot even trust your own country man ?

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## Jango

monitor said:


> first time i am reading such information .is that so ? you cannot even trust your own country man ?



It isn't trust or distrust.

Contingencies and back up plans are made in every scenario. Plans A, B and C are all pondered upon. You have to think out of the box and keep a lookout for everything.

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## Tehmasib

The story wrote by Dawn is only declassified article which come out in 85s...the dream of indo-Israel never comes true...I guaranties you

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Contrarian said:


> Pakistani's and their military glorified conspiracy theories!
> 
> I wonder how many times Pakistani's come up with their theories that show a fierce, brave and fearless Pakistani military that cowed down adversaries like India/Israel and nowadays US.
> *
> The last awesome one i heard was that Musharraf told Vajpayee or some other Indian leader that if we die there are hundreds of millions of Muslims left, but if you die there are no Hindus left. And ofcourse, the shaking Indian leader left with a wimp and ofcourse..never attacked.*



You missed one.

(+) Su-30mki locked by F-16's after 26/11 over Lahore.


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## Windjammer

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> You missed one.
> 
> (+) Su-30mki locked by F-16's after 26/11 over Lahore.



Learn your history first......the super duper, untouchable, invincible, Raptor of East was actually locked in the vicinity of Lahore while the Mirage-2000 over Kashmir sector. !!

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Windjammer said:


> Learn your history first......the super duper, untouchable, invincible, Raptor of East was actually locked in the vicinity of Lahore while the Mirage-2000 over Kashmir sector. !!



I don't have any problem with your fairy-tale theories, they may be good for your ego - boasting , but please don't force us to believe your self made glorifying BS !!

No one buy this crap of Immortal F-16's lock down _no matter_ How many more times you'll repeat it!!

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## Tehmasib

punit said:


> an imaginary attack prevented by mighty PAF. yet unable to stop tiny drones



leave the drone this is US and our problem ...cross the boarder and face the music.....


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## OrionHunter

> Pakistan is reported to have conveyed that an attack on Kahuta would force Pakistan to lay waste to Dimona, Israel`s nuclear reactor in the Negev Desert.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...k-pakistans-nuclear-assets.html#ixzz2EHbKMPnU


Really?  How so? Did the PAF have any mid-air refueling capabilities then? How were they supposed to reach Israel? With how many aircraft? Was it a suicide mission? Did they ever plan on getting all the way back to Pakistan after entering deep into Israeli air space? 

This story is nothing but baloney! Though it makes for a good movie script!

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## Tehmasib

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> I don't have any problem with your fairy-tale theories, they may be good for your ego - boasting , but please don't force us to believe your self made glorifying BS !!
> 
> No one buy this crap of Immortal F-16's lock down _no matter_ How many more times you'll repeat it!!



have IAF any crap in his fleet....can u tell me or I inform you what carp IAF has???

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## punit

Tehmasib said:


> leave the drone this is US and our problem ...cross the boarder and face the music.....



tell that to Attackers of salala


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## Windjammer

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> I don't have any problem with your fairy-tale theories, they may be good for your ego - boasting , but please don't force us to believe your self made glorifying BS !!
> 
> No one buy this crap of Immortal F-16's lock down _no matter_ How many more times you'll repeat it!!



You are just a minute something as far as this incident is concerned, hence who gives two monkeys what some fan boy thinks or rants.....those that matter are well in know how of the facts....period.

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## Windjammer

punit said:


> tell that to Attackers of salala



Before ranting about Drones and else......first worry about slow moving rubber boats that sail right down your throat. !!

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## acid rain

Don't think the so called bombardment went beyond Israel suggesting it and India out rightly refusing it, No way India will allow foreign troops let alone aircraft to operate out of its soil, we are not some banana republic or anyone's lackey.


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## araz

acid rain said:


> Don't think the so called bombardment went beyond Israel suggesting it and India out rightly refusing it, No way India will allow foreign troops let alone aircraft to operate out of its soil, we are not some banana republic or anyone's lackey.



All that I will say on the subject is "THAT IS NOT TRUE"!! Get hold of someone who has'nt got his head stuck up his rear and who knows things as to what 2 squadrons of F16s Bl52s doing trying low flying at the punjab border. then come back and talk to me!!
Araz

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## Windjammer

punit said:


> lol naval base,air base , ghq penetrated, air crafts destroyed what next



How about showing the finger to someone close to you. 

Pak planes violated Indian air space 23 times in 3 years: govt - Indian Express

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## MilSpec

Windjammer said:


> How about showing the finger to someone close to you.
> 
> Pak planes violated Indian air space 23 times in 3 years: govt - Indian Express



violation of airspace.....hmm....let me dwell on that thought for a while



Windjammer said:


> You are just a minute something as far as this incident is concerned, hence who gives two monkeys what some fan boy thinks or rants.....those that matter are well in know how of the facts....period.



FACTS!!! ab speculation aur conspiracy theories facts kab se ban gayee

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## acid rain

araz said:


> All that I will say on the subject is "THAT IS NOT TRUE"!! Get hold of someone who has'nt got his head stuck up his rear and who knows things as to what 2 squadrons of F16s Bl52s doing trying low flying at the punjab border. then come back and talk to me!!
> Araz



OK, when someone actually comes up with any evidence of Israel deploying its jets on Indian soil or for that matter anyone else - then I'll come back and talk to you.


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## Windjammer

sandy_3126 said:


> violation of airspace.....hmm....let me dwell on that thought for a while



And while you are deep in it, do recall the often repeated chest thumping on some Foxbat breaking the sound barrier.


> FACTS!!! ab speculation aur conspiracy theories facts kab se ban gayee



Well unlike the Indian authorities, Pakistan is not exactly claiming shooting down six Mirages......has the GOI denied that it's aircraft were not present at the disclosed locations. !! The fact is while GOP tried to sweep the matter under carpet, the PAF airchief is on record for pointing out it was a clear violation by the IAF and Mike Mullen was shown the evidence. !!

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## Umair Nawaz

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> I don't have any problem with your fairy-tale theories, they may be good for your ego - boasting , but please don't force us to believe your self made glorifying BS !!
> 
> No one buy this crap of Immortal F-16's lock down _no matter_ How many more times you'll repeat it!!



Does it has to do with the denial attitude of yr nation or believing in ''As India's Cute Little Angle's Theory''

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## 474474

Oscar said:


> Not as such specialized training, Just basic orders to use the F-16's stronger wing roots to ram into the C-130's vertical tail. Ensure that enough damage was caused to the C-130 to bring it down with the F-16.



Wouldn't it look better if they planted remote controlled explosives in the c130 and the remote could be with the pilots and/or ATC



Oscar said:


> Not as such specialized training, Just basic orders to use the F-16's stronger wing roots to ram into the C-130's vertical tail. Ensure that enough damage was caused to the C-130 to bring it down with the F-16.



Wouldn't it look better if they planted remote controlled explosives in the c130 and the remote could be with the pilots and/or ATC


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Windjammer said:


> You are just a minute something as far as this incident is concerned, hence who gives two monkeys what some fan boy thinks or rants.....those that matter are well in know how of the facts....period.



Self made glorifying Bullsh!t theories are not facts! period!

I personally have relatives in IAF at well placed positions. And typing all this here which is based on something which i won't like to mention on pakistan defence forum or any internet platform. Not a fanboy though.....As i said earlier these fairy tale theory of lock-down is good for consumption of fanboys and ego-boasting, nothing more than that.

By the way, Keep Ranting, No one gives a flying ___k (yeah those who matters).

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## Umair Nawaz

ursoul said:


> paf pakistan air force is one of the second best airforce in the world
> that makes u happy if yes then just move from ur computer and let the big boys talk and
> if no then fcuk offf sry but i have to say that



LOL mr indian navy engineer.

The BIG boys r talking here already, with some of them who r in the combat branches of Army,AF and Navy.
So yr saying of ''let the big boys talk'' doesnt suits u as yr just a engineer, thats all !!!

Otherwise go cry to your Mamma, Indira Gandhi.


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## Saleem

all this may have been true pre=pervez [musharaf]; he sold all the secrets and did his best to damage pakistan's command and leadership structure. until pervez's appointees are cleansed from the command and leadership, pakistan has no hope.....


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## Umair Nawaz

sandy_3126 said:


> violation of airspace.....hmm....let me dwell on that thought for a while
> 
> 
> 
> FACTS!!! ab speculation aur conspiracy theories facts kab se ban gayee



My dear American immigrant is back!!!!!


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## Umair Nawaz

474474 said:


> Wouldn't it look better if they planted remote controlled explosives in the c130 and the remote could be with the pilots and/or ATC
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it look better if they planted remote controlled explosives in the c130 and the remote could be with the pilots and/or ATC



What if then the PAF pilot tries to be cocky like in Rashid Minhas incident


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## Windjammer

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Self made glorifying Bullsh!t theories are not facts! period!
> 
> I personally have relatives in IAF at well placed positions. And typing all this here which is based on something which i won't like to mention on pakistan defence forum or any internet platform. Not a fanboy though.....As i said earlier these fairy tale theory of lock-down is good for consumption of fanboys and ego-boasting, nothing more than that.
> 
> By the way, Keep Ranting, No one gives a flying ___k (yeah those who matters).



And we are suppose to believe the crap you are posting because your family member told you so. 
It's obvious your sorry a$$ is on fire....but then that's what the truth does to you.....live in denila since that blows sunshine up your skirt. !!

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## Umair Nawaz

punit said:


> the real middle finger
> 
> vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-1997mig25-1.html
> Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF)
> Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B
> reconnaissance aircraft created a
> furore when the pilot flew faster than
> Mach 2 over Pakistani territory
> following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat
> broke the sound barrier while flying at
> an altitude of around 65,000 feet,
> otherwise the mission would have
> remained covert, at least to the general
> public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound
> barrier as deliberate: to make the point
> that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has
> no aircraft in its inventory which can
> come close to the cruising height of
> the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet). However, from one of PAF's Forward
> Operating Bases, radar traced the
> intruder and the F-16As scrambled.
> Sources in the PAF said that there was
> no need to intercept a plane flying at
> the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of
> 55,000 feet.
> 
> 
> 
> the real middle finger
> 
> vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-1997mig25-1.html
> Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF)
> Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B
> reconnaissance aircraft created a
> furore when the pilot flew faster than
> Mach 2 over Pakistani territory
> following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat
> broke the sound barrier while flying at
> an altitude of around 65,000 feet,
> otherwise the mission would have
> remained covert, at least to the general
> public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound
> barrier as deliberate: to make the point
> that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has
> no aircraft in its inventory which can
> come close to the cruising height of
> the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet). However, from one of PAF's Forward
> Operating Bases, radar traced the
> intruder and the F-16As scrambled.
> Sources in the PAF said that there was
> no need to intercept a plane flying at
> the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of
> 55,000 feet.



Whats next.......IAF attacks PAK with that UFO which was Sighted in Bhopal earlier???

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## 474474

Contrarian said:


> Not really. The extent of these conspiracy theories that have vast social acceptance showing a martial Pakistani military is absolutely unprecedented and unlikely in most nations.
> 
> While there are takers of conspiracy theories in India, the volume of them gaining social acceptance is ridiculously low. And its not for any kind of seal put on the mouths of people from gossiping.
> 
> As a nation it is much to do with the fact that Pakistan is an underachiever in all endeavours - from military victories to world technology *and then* wishing fiercely to constantly equal and better any match of India. This need(not a desire) to better India risen out of the trauma of partition - affecting India equally i may add. Failure is thus not accepted and an alternate reality is spun around hiding failures and creating glories.
> 
> The second reason is that Pakistan has always self-styled/imagined itself as the defender/fortress of Islam. Anything less than glory belies that claim. Pakistan's desire to be more Islamic than the Caliph. Thus the need to present such. And when the opportunity presents, its a zionist waiting to take down an Islamic Pakistan but the military prevented it.
> 
> Third, since its the military directly or indirectly running Pakistan, their need to show themselves as superior is a must as their credibility/capability and the need of such a big apparatus must be justified in front of people. Why the people must willingly suffer yet happily give more to the military. Thus control over Pakistan depends on it. They must show that the people made the right choice by giving them resources, that they have 'prevented' many things from happening.



Infinite face palm, I can't even begin to list. But for a start we at least have toilets.
And trying competing with china, considering the population size and area. Oh wait, you couldn't dream to!

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Windjammer said:


> And we are suppose to believe the crap you are posting because your family member told you so.
> 
> It's obvious your sorry a$$ is on fire....but then that's what the truth does to you.....live in denila since that blows sunshine up your skirt. !!




Never i asked you to believe me. Just stating that my posts are not based on fan boyish fairy-tales or going gung-ho over it rather its more credible then you can ever imagine! 

As i said before keep believing in your self made glorifying BS, i have no problem with it, but truth is beyond your grasp.

And Rest of your rant is'nt bothering me...Try hard

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## Windjammer

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Never i asked you to believe me. Just stating that my posts are not based on fan boyish fairy-tales or going gung-ho over it rather its more credible then you can ever imagine!
> 
> As i said before keep believing in your self made glorifying BS, i have no problem with it, but truth is beyond your grasp.
> 
> And Rest of your rant is'nt bothering me...Try hard



An internet warrior is bottom of my list hence no need to waste the space.
Oh the initial nonsensical rant post~83 is sufficient to prove, what's eating you.
BTW, you liberally use the term BS.......hell you must be full of it.

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## karan.1970

KS said:


> Do you know how many Indian Nuclear facilities are there and how deep they are inside India ? If the ambassador knew geography and the relative capabilities of pAF vis-a-vis IAF he would not have said that.
> 
> Ok let alone Indian nuclear facilities. But Israeli Negev facility. Seriously ? Did PAF have the capability to carry out such a strike 6000 kms away without refuellers at that time ?
> 
> So actually to burst the bubble, no such incident ever happened. Its just another of those paranoid conspiracy theories by the Pakistanis who seek to shore up their importance to outside world.




This is like the story of the Shepard who went into the village square one evening and said " I think a lion is going to attack us tonight because I dreamed about it... so I will stand guard and protect the village. And when till next day morning nothing happened (because there was no lion to begin with), he started claiming that he scared the lion away and hence is the protector of the village ..... I mean self glorification seems to be the favorite time pass of some people..

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## SQ8

karan.1970 said:


> This is like the story of the Shepard who went into the village square one evening and said " I think a lion is going to attack us tonight because I dreamed about it... so I will stand guard and protect the village. And when till next day morning nothing happened (because there was no lion to begin with), he started claiming that he scared the lion away and hence is the protector of the village .....* I mean self glorification seems to be the favorite time pass of some people.*.



You know that does go both ways...

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## acid rain

karan.1970 said:


> This is like the story of the Shepard who went into the village square one evening and said " I think a lion is going to attack us tonight because I dreamed about it... so I will stand guard and protect the village. And when till next day morning nothing happened (because there was no lion to begin with), he started claiming that he scared the lion away and hence is the protector of the village ..... I mean self glorification seems to be the favorite time pass of some people..



LOL, never heard this story before, but it makes perfect sense here.

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## Rajaraja Chola

This story doesnt seem to be true. Its only in 1991, India recognised Israel. Only Kargil War bought India Israel closer. And it had been reported that MOSSAD(though limited) along with CIA and ISI also operated out of pakistan against Soviets in Afghanistan. 
So how come will they ever even plan this? Before 1991 there was no relation between India n Israel , and so we can forget the Joint operation or co-op between RAW and MOSSAD.
Its an another conspiracy theory to inflate '*some'* pakistani's great self ego's and marcial prowess.

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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> This is like the story of the Shepard who went into the village square one evening and said " I think a lion is going to attack us tonight because I dreamed about it... so I will stand guard and protect the village. And when till next day morning nothing happened (because there was no lion to begin with), he started claiming that he scared the lion away and hence is the protector of the village ..... I mean self glorification seems to be the favorite time pass of some people..



Then there was a Basanti, who got married into a fishing community.... initially, she moaned and complained about all the fish smell....after a few weeks she got used to it thus accepted the reality but being the drama queen, she couldn't resist standing in the village square and shouting, "since i have arrived, all the smell is gone". !! I guess some people even after knowing the truth, tend to wave high and whisper to the hallow wind.

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

karan.1970 said:


> This is like the story of the Shepard who went into the village square one evening and said " I think a lion is going to attack us tonight because I dreamed about it... so I will stand guard and protect the village. And when till next day morning nothing happened (because there was no lion to begin with), he started claiming that he scared the lion away and hence is the protector of the village ..... I mean self glorification seems to be the favorite time pass of some people..



LOL...True that......Hit the Nail. 





Oscar said:


> You know that does go both ways...



But mostly one way, as we all can see

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## Sarjen

Rajaraja Chola said:


> This story doesnt seem to be true. Its only in 1991, India recognised Israel. Only Kargil War bought India Israel closer. And it had been reported that MOSSAD(though limited) along with CIA and ISI also operated out of pakistan against Soviets in Afghanistan.
> So how come will they ever even plan this? Before 1991 there was no relation between India n Israel , and so we can forget the Joint operation or co-op between RAW and MOSSAD.
> Its an another conspiracy theory to inflate '*some'* pakistani's great self ego's and marcial prowess.



Dude, it's a self claimed propaganda... for political reasons and some enjoyment for some Pakistani fan boys in PDF, Pakistan is not that cleaver like Israelis, but they talk like though they're equal to US...... there's no way Israel's planes would fly that far with tankers without detection from any other countries near by....

Anyway just let them have fun with their claims...at least let them win this time....

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Windjammer said:


> An internet warrior is bottom of my list hence no need to waste the space.



Still no comparison with a Fanboy story teller.



Windjammer said:


> Oh the initial nonsensical rant post~83 is sufficient to prove, what's eating you.



post #83 is the main itching you replied for. sorry to burst your fairy tale.



Windjammer said:


> BTW, you liberally use the term BS.......hell you must be full of it.



No, i use it because i like to beat the B-Sh!t out from some


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## Rajaraja Chola

Sarjen said:


> Dude, it's a self claimed propaganda... for political reasons and some enjoyment for some Pakistani fan boys in PDF, Pakistan is not that cleaver like Israelis, but they talk like though they're equal to US...... there's no way Israel's planes would fly that far with tankers without detection from any other countries near by....
> 
> Anyway just let them have fun with their claims...at least let them win this time....



I just admire the minds behind the conspiracy stories they make !!! 
We must inform the world, an equal to Christopher Nolan have born  
Just walk into pdf

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## araz

acid rain said:


> OK, when someone actually comes up with any evidence of Israel deploying its jets on Indian soil or for that matter anyone else - then I'll come back and talk to you.



Next and last hint. Do you know the name of the person in Windjammer,s avatar. He was the person who made the initial request on which PAF F16s were scrambled. 
I would again reiterate the initial post which asked for one incidence when another power has usedIndian soil to try and launch an attack. Also please look at my record. I dont normally get involved in thisv/s that debates.
Araz
A

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## Armstrong

araz said:


> Next and last hint. *Do you know the name of the person in Windjammer,s avatar*. He was the person who made the initial request on which PAF F16s were scrambled.
> I would again reiterate the initial post which asked for one incidence when another power has usedIndian soil to try and launch an attack. Also please look at my record. I dont normally get involved in thisv/s that debates.
> Araz
> A



Young man, who is he ?

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## karan.1970

Oscar said:


> You know that does go both ways...



Like every thing else..



acid rain said:


> LOL, never heard this story before, but it makes perfect sense here.



I just made it up.. considering this thread itself is a made up story 



Windjammer said:


> Then there was a Basanti, who got married into a fishing community.... initially, she moaned and complained about all the fish smell....after a few weeks she got used to it thus accepted the reality but being the drama queen, she couldn't resist standing in the village square and shouting, "since i have arrived, all the smell is gone". !! I guess some people even after knowing the truth, tend to wave high and whisper to the hallow wind.



Try again.. Maybe you will make sense the next time

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## manojb

Safriz said:


> In 1974 PIA planes who passed tnrough indian air space were wiped with tissue papers,and the dust was examined for radiation.
> Thats how Pakistani scientists confirmed indian claims of a nuclear detonation.


In April 1974 India banned pia flights to use indian airspace. 
sorry to bust your Tissue paper theory !!

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## Sarjen

araz said:


> Next and last hint. Do you know the name of the person in Windjammer,s avatar. He was the person who made the initial request on which PAF F16s were scrambled.
> I would again reiterate the initial post which asked for one incidence when another power has usedIndian soil to try and launch an attack. Also please look at my record. I dont normally get involved in thisv/s that debates.
> Araz
> A



Don't bla without an evidence, no country ever on earth would send a single plane to another territory to bomb even in that such a distance , why didn't you intercept then? where was the tanker, did Israel really had a tanker in 1991...? how do you people believe evry **** your govrn say,....? crazy people


----------



## Zabaniyah

> After successfully destroying Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, Israelis planned a similar attack on Pakistan`s nuclear facilities at Kahuta in collusion with India in the 1980s. *Using satellite pictures and intelligence information,* Israel reportedly built a full-scale mock-up of Kahuta facility in the Negev Desert where pilots of F-16 and F-15 squadrons practised mock attacks.



There is something that doesn't add up here. 

Israel launched its first recon satellite in 1988 (the Ofeq) if I am not mistaken. 

Were the Americans willing to let the Israelis use their's against Pakistan in those sensitive times (the Soviet-Afghan war)? I doubt it...



> *Another report claims that Israel also planned an air strike directly out of Israel. After midway and midair refueling, Israeli warplanes planned to shoot down a commercial airline`s flight over Indian Ocean that flew into Islamabad early morning,* fly in a tight formation to appear as one large aircraft on radar screens preventing detection, use the drowned airliner`s call sign to enter Islamabad`s air space, knock out Kahuta and fly out to Jammu to refuel and exit.



If I may ask.... 

....if they had that kind of capability back then, they would have done so already in Iran at the drop of a hat. 

Even with F-15s, and air-to-air refueling, it is no child's play to effectively destroy Iran's nuclear facilities. I fail to understand how this is even remotely possible against Pakistan. And at that time! 

Though, it may be possible if they were to be based in India. Though that would have been a very difficult arrangement (correct me if I'm wrong). 



arp2041 said:


> Actually i have heard this story, RAW brought the blue prints of Kahuta nuclear reactor at the time when Morarji Desai was the PM of India, they wanted more money to thwart the nuclear ambitions of Pakistan, but our great PM rejected the plans & instead made it aware to Pakistan that India knows what they are doing thus the mole inside Pakistan who passed the blue print to RAW was exposed & killed by Pakistan agencies & what Morarji Desai got is Nishan-e-Pakistan from Pakistan (it's highest civilian order) becoming the only Indian to got the same.
> 
> Our PM MMS is working to get another for an Indian (himself) by planning to vacate Siachin unconditionally.
> 
> Here's the link:
> 
> RAW & Mossad: The Secret Link



You know, that actually makes more sense...

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## araz

Armstrong said:


> Young man, who is he ?



Are you calling me a young man or pointing at the man in windys avatar. In the case of the former I hate to disappoint you. In the case of the latter he is currently an air attache in the country from where F16s originate.
Araz

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## Armstrong

araz said:


> Are you calling me a young man or pointing at the man in windys avatar. In theyou case of the former I hate to disappoint you. In the case of the latter he is currently an air attache in the country from where F16s originate.
> Araz



I was calling you a young man ! *the ceiling is there till one's '60s* 

That moustache reminds me of Muradk but I'm guessing he isn't the same person.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?



Ask your generals, who wisely backed off and knew what was best for their country

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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Ask your generals, who wisely backed off and knew what was best for their country



My generals say nothing of that sort even existed.


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## araz

Sarjen said:


> Don't bla without an evidence, no country ever on earth would send a single plane to another territory to bomb even in that such a distance , why didn't you intercept then? where was the tanker, did Israel really had a tanker in 1991...? how do you people believe evry **** your govrn say,....? crazy people



You are the one who said a single plane not me.You are an even bigger moron if you think that either countries whose flags you support will accept these facts as anything but a figment of someone,imagination. Evidence Ha ha indeed. But purely out of curiosity why are these 2 flags there below your avatar. You may choose to ignore the question. I am merely curious and the request is a friendly one.
Araz

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## Armstrong

@araz : Thanks !


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## araz

KS said:


> My generals say nothing of that sort even existed.



What else are they supposed to tell you .Bhai this war thing is not an easy affair in the scenario the subcontinent is facing. Any idiocy on the part of anyone irrespective of their nationality would have disasterous consequences for the region and possibly for the whole world. Someone mentioned the chjnese being very happy with an Indo Pak encounter. I assure you the nuclear fallout and its consequences would make them very unhappy indeed irrespective of whether the Himalayas separate you or not.
Araz

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## Windjammer

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Still no comparison with a Fanboy story teller.



Indeed you take the lead as a drama queen.


> post #83 is the main itching you replied for. sorry to burst your fairy tale.


 Actually typical Indian ploy to digress when it's hard to digest, hence you are no exception. 



> No, i use it because i like to beat the B-Sh!t out from some



Admiring someone's rosy cheeks is in human nature but you are smacking yourself just to get a red face hence, all the BS is only oozing from your own laughing gear.

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## SQ8

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> LOL...True that......Hit the Nail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But mostly one way, as we all can see



No.. as we Indians can see is what you mean to say.
be honest.

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## acid rain

araz said:


> Next and last hint. Do you know the name of the person in Windjammer,s avatar. He was the person who made the initial request on which PAF F16s were scrambled.
> I would again reiterate the initial post which asked for one incidence when another power has usedIndian soil to try and launch an attack. Also please look at my record. I dont normally get involved in thisv/s that debates.
> Araz
> A



Sir, I still am holding on to my earlier post of any other powers using Indian soil as a base, PAF could have scrambled its jets and as someone said the F16 was actually yours, can you or someone post corroborative evidence from other than Pakistani sources like the other protagonists of this PAF incidence namely Israel, India or the US. 

and, would definitely like you to mention which foreign forces have used Indian soil before?


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Try again.. Maybe you will make sense the next time



Seems all the fish smell is well lodged.

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## SQ8

The fact of the matter remains. That the event of 26/11 will ALWAYS be denied by India until documents are unclassified.
And that event of interception will always be ingrained in my mind thanks to a nice shot of the AVTR video from the interception that Ive had the privilege to see.. BUT.. I cannot prove it until that is released to the public.
Any further discussion on that matter then, is CLOSED.

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## araz

Perhaps I know a few more things than you young people.
Araz


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Seems all the fish smell is well lodged.



well.. I was wrong.. You still didnt make any sense 

Dont bother trying any more..


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## Safriz

manojb said:


> In April 1974 India banned pia flights to use indian airspace.
> sorry to bust your Tissue paper theory !!



Well then,it may be other airline planes landing into Pakistan after flying through Indian airspace,as there is no law prohibiting an airport crew from wiping a few tissue papers on a plane while its on their turf....
The story was narrated to me by some one i know and was working with Pakistan atomic energy commission at the time..The last time i met him was in 1992,so my memory must have dodged me about the name of airline,may not be PIA...But that was a brilliant idea as Pakistan didn't have spy satellites and had to do away with less expensive and available method...

Planes flying through Stratosphere


> The stratosphere is situated between about 10 km (6 mi) and 50 km (30 mi) altitude above the surface at moderate latitudes


 only carry dust which was blown up there by some very high powered phenomenon and nuclear explosion is one of them..It blows dust all the way up to the stratosphere...
All the rest of the dust and all the weather systems are stopped at "Tropopause" and never enter stratosphere...
So dust from Stratosphere being Radioactive and showing molecules of radioactive elements was what Pakistani Scientists were looking for as evidence of Indian nuclear explosion and what type of Bomb India used...



araz said:


> Perhaps I know a few more things than you young people.
> Araz



Spill your beans or i am sending the queen your way...with her guns..

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## krash

The book "Deception: Pakistan, the United States and the Global Weapons Conspiracy", by Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark, has an interesting take on the subject.

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## acid rain

araz said:


> Perhaps I know a few more things than you young people.
> Araz



On this incidence? would really love to know more, it seems you know things thats not out on media and known to all so can you share it?


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## Safriz

acid rain said:


> On this incidence? would really love to know more, it seems you know things thats not out on media and known to all so can you share it?



I am sending the Queen of England his way.
What you gona do to make him speak out and spill the beans?

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## Hyperion

KS said:


> My generals say nothing of that sort even existed.


@KS, I never get involved in such things, trust me it existed.


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## araz

acid rain said:


> On this incidence? would really love to know more, it seems you know things thats not out on media and known to all so can you share it?



Sorry I said as much as I could. No offence but it will always be denied . lets leave it at that.
Araz

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## acid rain

Safriz said:


> I am sending the Queen of England his way.
> What you gona do to make him speak out and spill the beans?



dont think he's buying that


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## Hyperion

araz said:


> Sorry I said as much as I could. No offence but it will always be denied . lets leave it at that.
> Araz


 @araz, you Ex Air Force?


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## Slayer786

punit said:


> an imaginary attack prevented by mighty PAF. yet unable to stop tiny drones



If you had any sense you would know that drones can be spotted and downed anytime, by PAf, but it is unable to do so because of political wranglings between Islamabad and Washington. Hence billions of $$$$$$ worth of military and cash from Uncle Sam. Those drones are killing mostly militants and sadly some innocents but if anyone dare to attack our nuclear plant than that is a different ball game.
MAybe you should ask your uncle ji in IAF about why India got cold feet after Mumbai attacks when initially they wanted to attack Pakistan.

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## Safriz

Hyperion said:


> @araz, you Ex Air Force?



and you expect he will reply to that honestly on a _"public internet forum"_

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## Hyperion

Safriz said:


> and you expect he will reply to that honestly on a _"public internet forum"_


A simple yes does not give away anyones identity!

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## ARSENAL6

Windjammer said:


> Indeed you take the lead as a drama queen.
> Actually typical Indian ploy to digress when it's hard to digest, hence you are no exception.
> 
> 
> 
> Admiring someone's rosy cheeks is in human nature but you are smacking yourself just to get a red face hence, all the BS is only oozing from your own laughing gear.



Indians here can't take it

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## Donatello

ARSENAL6 said:


> Indians here can't take it



From denying combat aircraft interception after 26/11 to the fact that India can counter any missile Pakistan gets (hint: refer to CM400AKG thread), they have figured it all.

Not to mention their overly jingoistic general staff which stated that India was capable of doing a raid similar to US did with OBL. LOL.....and Indians keep begging to put Hafiz Saeed or bla bla bla mullah behind bars and extradite them.


Good joke of a nation.

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## Umair Nawaz

Rajaraja Chola said:


> This story doesnt seem to be true. Its only in 1991, India recognised Israel. Only Kargil War bought India Israel closer. And it had been reported that MOSSAD(though limited) along with CIA and ISI also operated out of pakistan against Soviets in Afghanistan.
> So how come will they ever even plan this? Before 1991 there was no relation between India n Israel , and so we can forget the Joint operation or co-op between RAW and MOSSAD.
> Its an another conspiracy theory to inflate '*some'* pakistani's great self ego's and marcial prowess.


dude pakistan has still not recognize israel even today.


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## Umair Nawaz

manojb said:


> In April 1974 India banned pia flights to use indian airspace.
> sorry to bust your Tissue paper theory !!



That was in 1971



Windjammer said:


> Then there was a Basanti, who got married into a fishing community.... initially, she moaned and complained about all the fish smell....after a few weeks she got used to it thus accepted the reality but being the drama queen, she couldn't resist standing in the village square and shouting, "since i have arrived, all the smell is gone". !! I guess some people even after knowing the truth, tend to wave high and whisper to the hallow wind.


HAHAHa well done 
This is what they really r!!!
U just hit a Bulls eye. 
Oh sorry Bull is Holly Thing in their Religion


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## XYON

Actually the Indo-Israeli Nexus against Pakistan is no myth. I wrote a brief, immediately after when India conducted its last nuke tests and when Pakistan was under pressure to do the same, and submitted it to the highest office in the land. It was called the POKHARAN BRIEF in which I had laid out the exact methodology of how the Israeli's intended to attack Pakistani nuclear assets in reaction to the Indian Nuclear tests. This was further strengthened by an earlier incident of a Long Range Surveillance Indian Mig that had been detected by PAF radars over Punjab and it went super sonic breaking the sound barrier that was heard over a wide area in Islamabad/ Rawalpindi at the time. The Indian Mig was mimicking the Israeli F-15's to test Pakistan early detection abilities during such a perceived attack. I had also laid down in my brief the air corridor for the flight of the Israeli F-15's to Pakistan airspace. Later and after Pakistan had conducted its tests, ISI had presented photographs to its top echelons of unmarked three F-16's and four F-15's parked on the tarmac of an air base in Indian Occupied Kashmir. Too bad for the Indo-Israeli Nexus team, it was the following 'consequences' on Indian soil turning into radiating red powder by the reactionary attack of Pakistan with full nuke ability (on trained suicidal mission nuke tipped Mirages and F-16's at the time), that deterred them to re-consider the act and simply fizzle away back to their respective nests! 

Indian's and perhaps some Israeli's here may want to call it a fantasy or fiction bed time story to satisfy their own purposes (just as the Jewish Nukes are global fantasy too!), but the fact of the incident remains for those who would like to learn from it and for those who would like to consistently deny it!

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## Thorough Pro

Thanks to Allah Almighty for protecting Pakistan from its enemies in the past. After long years of planning some failed attemts they have realized well that they can not attack our strategical assets without consequences and hence are now trying the same in hte guise of "Terrorists". They have already started to implement their plan by first spreading propaganda against our nukes falling in hte hands of terrorists and then starting attacks on our millitary installations.

This way when they do attack our nuclear installations through proxy terrorists, they think no one will point fingers at them. Pakistan should make it very clear both to india and israel that even if Taliban attacked any of outr nuclear installations, we will consider it an attack by india and israel as only they had tried it in the past, only they have concerns about it, only they would directly benefit form it, hence in any such eventuallity, Pakistan will hold them responsible and retaliate.

This would make them think before backing terrorists to carry out any such stupid move.

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## toxic_pus

Oscar said:


> The fact of the matter remains. That the event of 26/11 will ALWAYS be denied by India until documents are unclassified.
> And that event of interception will always be ingrained in my mind thanks to a nice shot of the AVTR video from the interception that Ive had the privilege to see.. BUT.. I cannot prove it until that is released to the public.
> Any further discussion on that matter then, is CLOSED.


The fact of the matter remains. That the event of an invisible pink elephant nesting under my bed will ALWAYS be denied by the world at large until the invisible pink elephant decides to show itself in public.
And that event of nesting will always be ingrained in my mind thanks to a nice shot of invisible video from the nesting that Ive had the privilege to see.. BUT ..I cannot prove it until that invisible pink elephant shows itself to the public.
Any further discussion on that matter then, is CLOSED.

Do you see where I'm going with this....

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## Gentelman

Ohhhh Pakistanis with which typ of people you r arguing .... you know they will not accept this......
You also have the experiance of 1965 war which they still consider their victory knowing their a** was kicked in battelfield.....
and why will they accept the top secret operations in form lik PDF??

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## Umair Nawaz

toxic_pus said:


> The fact of the matter remains. That the event of an invisible pink elephant nesting under my bed will ALWAYS be denied by the world at large until the invisible pink elephant decides to show itself in public.
> And that event of nesting will always be ingrained in my mind thanks to a nice shot of invisible video from the nesting that Ive had the privilege to see.. BUT ..I cannot prove it until that invisible pink elephant shows itself to the public.
> Any further discussion on that matter then, is CLOSED.
> 
> Do you see where I'm going with this....



U really write like how u have uploaded yr Avatar.
A perfect match


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## AUz

toxic_pus said:


> The fact of the matter remains. That the event of an invisible pink elephant nesting under my bed will ALWAYS be denied by the world at large until the invisible pink elephant decides to show itself in public.
> And that event of nesting will always be ingrained in my mind thanks to a nice shot of invisible video from the nesting that Ive had the privilege to see.. BUT ..I cannot prove it until that invisible pink elephant shows itself to the public.
> Any further discussion on that matter then, is CLOSED.
> 
> Do you see where I'm going with this....



Ever heard of logical fallacy called "False Analogy"? ..Anyways , you're Indian.

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## manojb

Umair Nawaz said:


> That was in 1971


Google is your good friend.. give him a shout.. or enjoy more folklore on this thread. entertaining!!


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## Mav3rick

Stealth said:


> Can somebody (especially Indian Military or Govt official) explain this **** why not Indian AF did Surgical strike after 26/11!



It is self evident to the whole world including Indians. Admitting, however, is another matter.


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## OrionHunter

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?


The PAF would have destroyed India to smithereens. Didn't you know?












All IAF pilots headed for the hills to escape retribution from the PAF just in case the Israelis attacked!


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## Mujraparty

Unbelievable , 2 squadrons of f16 deployed in India and Indians don't even know it ...?
every source i'v come across this incident says* there were plans to strike but it never materialised* , but these Pakistanis are blowing it out of proportions saying Israel positioned its fighter aircraft's in India .

karans story fits well in this case ...


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## Thorough Pro

Just does not make sense for such an extreme measure. Why send just 4 falcons for escort if the threats were so real, why not 8 or 12 or 16?

If there was any doubt in the minds of the higherups that the C130 pilot would desert, why not simply assign the task to some die hard patriotic above such doubts? and why not place a counter team on the C130 to shoot the pilot if he deviates from the route?

No! I don't think the C130 pilots were suspect, or there was that great a risk of C130 being hijacked from within our borders with a reasonably good sized and efficient airforce on guard, had there been a real risk, there would have been more falcons in hte escort team with potent weapons to bring down treasure cove rather than going the extreme way of ramming it down.

If I were to really believe in that story, then PAF is not even 10% of what we believe it to be in terms of professionalism and capability.




Oscar said:


> That was in case the C-130 was hijacked or otherwise.. and a hostile force had come to escort it out.
> If the F-16's ran out of ammo or were not able to bring the bird down due to being engaged by hostile forces... they were to ram it to bring it down over Pakistani airspace.


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## Thorough Pro

Why would they?



KS said:


> My generals say nothing of that sort even existed.

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## krash

toxic_pus said:


> The fact of the matter remains. That the event of an invisible pink elephant nesting under my bed will ALWAYS be denied by the world at large until the invisible pink elephant decides to show itself in public.
> And that event of nesting will always be ingrained in my mind thanks to a nice shot of invisible video from the nesting that Ive had the privilege to see.. BUT ..I cannot prove it until that invisible pink elephant shows itself to the public.
> Any further discussion on that matter then, is CLOSED.
> 
> Do you see where I'm going with this....



Your analogy fails to account for the absence of one actually feeling the need to prove it to the world. The invisible pink elephant under his bed concerns him and is his problem. The world believing his word or that its just another yellow invisible elephant is a matter the man, laying on the bed with his nose pressed against the ceiling, is the least bit concerned about. What he will do is claim it to be true not because his neighbor chooses to believe in it but because he himself believes and knows it to be true, as is his right. The neighbor, for all his care, could go around the neighborhood forming "there is no invisible pink elephant under my neighbor's bed" club houses but that wouldn't really matter now would it, not to the elephant and no to the man. Nor would the man change his stance because his neighbor, a self appointed judge, who over estimates the importance of his thoughts on the matter for the man and somehow, uninvited, took it upon himself to be the authority to be appeased while never having been in the man's house, refuses to believe in it. It's as if a man trying to disprove the female orgasm.

There was no discussion to begin with, you just thought you were owed one.



Thorough Pro said:


> Just does not make sense for such an extreme measure. Why send just 4 falcons for escort if the threats were so real, why not 8 or 12 or 16?
> 
> If there was any doubt in the minds of the higherups that the C130 pilot would desert, why not simply assign the task to some die hard patriotic above such doubts? and why not place a counter team on the C130 to shoot the pilot if he deviates from the route?
> 
> No! I don't think the C130 pilots were suspect, or there was that great a risk of C130 being hijacked from within our borders with a reasonably good sized and efficient airforce on guard, had there been a real risk, there would have been more falcons in hte escort team with potent weapons to bring down treasure cove rather than going the extreme way of ramming it down.
> 
> If I were to really believe in that story, then PAF is not even 10% of what we believe it to be in terms of professionalism and capability.



As I understand it this was to be the last ditch effort if everything else had failed not the modus operendi. One has to think of all the contingencies when dealing with an issue as important as this; having thought out everything, so to speak.

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## Mav3rick

MadDog said:


> Absolute non sense, this article has been circulated through out various blogs, we Pakistanis love to believe in conspiracy theories. Israel has nothing to with Pakistan, last time any Israeli leader mentioned Pakistan it was *Shimon Peres who prayed for Musharaf*. Infact, *in 2010 Israelis offered Pakistan to sell their guided munitions for PAF for war on terror*, an offer which was rejected by PAF. This was stated by Pakistan Air chief in a speech. Recently *Pakistan Airforce also bought aircraft refueling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey.*
> 
> *I am still wondering how senior and respected members on this forum like "WindJammer" are agreeing with this delusional article.*



Pakistan also purchased a lot of military hardware from Israel to arm the Afghan freedom fighters against USSR.......did that mean anything other then the fact that the US was bringing together the 2 countries for a common cause? After Soviet defeat, did we purchase any arms from Israel?

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## Thorough Pro

No! Paistan did not purchase any millitary hardware from Israel "directly". CIA purchased the russian origin millitary hardware from Israel which it had captured from Egypt in Arab Israel war (I don't remember which one) and I believe the money came from US and KSA. 




Mav3rick said:


> Pakistan also purchased a lot of military hardware from Israel to arm the Afghan freedom fighters against USSR.......did that mean anything other then the fact that the US was bringing together the 2 countries for a common cause? After Soviet defeat, did we purchase any arms from Israel?

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## MadDog

Mav3rick said:


> Pakistan also purchased a lot of military hardware from Israel to arm the Afghan freedom fighters against USSR.......did that mean anything other then the fact that the US was bringing together the 2 countries for a common cause? After Soviet defeat, did we purchase any arms from Israel?



Pakistan purchased F-16 refuelling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey...If i were an indian..i would have been praying that Pakistan never recognizes Israel...cuz if it does...there would be a defence relationship...right now India has a qualitative edge in some areas just because of the Israeli technology



jahangeer yousaf said:


> denying is good but denying what should not be denied is wired .... come out of love of IsraHell...



Well Mr Jahangeer, i would be more than happy to believe it if you give me one authentic official source, not blogs and shady sites, let me tell you..right now i can create 10 fake sites, and write anything i want in it...using unnamed sources...i am guessing...probably you would believe that too...please talk with reason and evidence..this is what Quran tells to us...talk with "Daleel" and you don't have one.


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## Mav3rick

Thorough Pro said:


> No! Paistan did not purchase any millitary hardware from Israel "directly". CIA purchased the russian origin millitary hardware from Israel which it had captured from Egypt in Arab Israel war (I don't remember which one) and I believe the money came from US and KSA.



The purchase was from Israel, regardless of it being direct or indirect both countries knew the origin and recipient. Can Pakistan do that with any other Israeli offensive capability such as SAM systems or radars? If not, then both countries were brought together by the US for a common cause.


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## Bratva

MadDog said:


> Pakistan purchased F-16 refuelling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey...If i were an indian..i would have been praying that Pakistan never recognizes Israel...cuz if it does...there would be a defence relationship...right now India has a qualitative edge in some areas just because of the Israeli technology
> 
> 
> 
> Well Mr Jahangeer, i would be more than happy to believe it if you give me one authentic official source, not blogs and shady sites, let me tell you..right now i can create 10 fake sites, and write anything i want in it...using unnamed sources...i am guessing...probably you would believe that too...*please talk with reason and evidence..this is what Quran tells to us...talk with "Daleel" and you don't have one.*




Read Retired Air commodor Qaisar Tufail accounts of that faithful day, He was involved in such matters.


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## zer_0

here is something i found on wikipedia 

*OPERATION SENTINEL*

The Operation Opera played a psychological role in Pakistan as it was a success operation commenced by Israeli Air Force.[2] The Establishment and the Pakistan Intelligence Community began to worry about the symmetric operation will be launched near Kahuta with more advanced weapons will be used on the facilities.[2] The Naval Intelligence learned that suspicious activities has been seen near the coastal cities of India, and Indira Gandhi has motives against the nuclear development in Pakistan.[2] As he was made a four-star general in the Air Force, Shamim served as one of the most and closest confident of General Zia-ul-Haq.[3] In 1979, while in private, General Zia told Air Chief Marshal Shamim that ISI had reliable intel that that Indian Air Force, ordered by Indira Gandhi, Indian Premier, has plans to attack and destroy the Pakistan's nuclear research facilities at Kahuta, notably the Engineering Research Laboratories.[3] While asking the capability of retaliation, Air Chief Marshal Shamim acknowledged that Indian Air Force could reach the area in 3 minutes whereas the PAF would take 8 minutes, allowing the Indians to attack the facility and return before the PAF could defend it.[3] Because Kahuta is near borders and to effectively defended it was decided that the best way to deter an Indian attack would be to procure new advanced fighters and weaponry.[3] But in meanwhile, Air Chief Marshal told General Zia to use diplomacy by sending Munir Ahmad Khan to Indian diplomatic mission in Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency.[3]
During this meantime, Pakistan Air Force was put on high-alert with alert level 7. The PAF jets began to take sorties, equipped with missiles, on regular basis.[2] The other day, Air Intelligence confirmed the report about the intel and recommended the acquisition of Mirage-2000 or F-16 Falcon Fighters at an emergency level.[2] Shamim advocated for the F-16s and acknowledged General Zia about the plans.[2] In 1981, the Air Intelligence became alerted of suspected F-16s jets landed near at the Indian borders.[2] Therefore, the Shamim alerted the PAF, and a counter operation was launched, Operation Sentinel.[2] The PAF jets intercepted the suspected F-16s and confirmed their Israeli identity.[2] The PAF jets took aggressive measures and their tactics surprised the IAF F-16s.[2] Panicked and surprise, the mission was cancelled and IAF F-16s were pulled off immediately.[2] Pakistan then used Munir Ahmad Khan and a high level delegation was sent to India where both countries signed a pact not to laid attacks on each others facilities.[2]


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## Najam Khan

Thorough Pro said:


> Just does not make sense for such an extreme measure. Why send just 4 falcons for escort if the threats were so real, why not *8 or 12 or 16*?



Back then, such large number of aircraft can't be spared at one time. Even 4 was a BIG number, considering 28/30 operational F-16s.



Thorough Pro said:


> *If there was any doubt in the minds of the higherups that the C130 pilot would desert, why not simply assign the task to some die hard patriotic above such doubts? and why not place a counter team on the C130 to shoot the pilot if he deviates from the route?*
> 
> No! I don't think the C130 pilots were suspect, or there was that great a risk of C130 being hijacked from within our borders with a reasonably good sized and efficient airforce on guard, had there been a real risk, there would have been more falcons in hte escort team with potent weapons to bring down treasure cove rather than going the extreme way of ramming it down.


The incident narrated by Oscar was merely last effort, IF everything goes out of order and an aircraft with vital assets go rouge. You will be surprised to hear that militaries even consider worst case scenarios such as _Mad Colonel dilemma_ in their ops plannings.


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## Umair Nawaz

MadDog said:


> Pakistan purchased F-16 refuelling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey...If i were an indian..i would have been praying that Pakistan never recognizes Israel...cuz if it does...there would be a defence relationship...right now India has a qualitative edge in some areas just because of the Israeli technology
> 
> 
> Well Mr Jahangeer, i would be more than happy to believe it if you give me one authentic official source, not blogs and shady sites, let me tell you..right now i can create 10 fake sites, and write anything i want in it...using unnamed sources...i am guessing...probably you would believe that too...please talk with reason and evidence..this is what Quran tells to us...talk with "Daleel" and you don't have one.



LOL just 2 mini trucks of black and white colour for 18 block50/52 jet stationed in shahbaz AB along with these trucks.
U make me laugh u know because in every thread u give examples of these 2 mini trucks n a offer of mutations in 2009.

Dude!!!
Even if we become their biggest friend still they will not sell us any *OFFENSIVE TECHNOLOGY* that will be effective against our Enemies in a real way.

Even after reading all the comments of senior members in this forum still u say that then i seriously think u really have got some issues here.


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## krash

MadDog said:


> Pakistan purchased F-16 refuelling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey...If i were an indian..i would have been praying that Pakistan never recognizes Israel...cuz if it does...*there would be a defence relationship*...right now India has a qualitative edge in some areas just because of the Israeli technology



Only if Pakistan and Israel stood solitary. And if one is to reach then why not reach for the ultimate? Have peace with India, give them what they want and you wont need Israel? Or do you see the folly in your argument now?



MadDog said:


> Well Mr Jahangeer, i would be more than happy to believe it if you give me one authentic official source, not blogs and shady sites, let me tell you..right now i can create 10 fake sites, and write anything i want in it...using unnamed sources...i am guessing...probably you would believe that too...please talk with reason and evidence..this is what Quran tells to us...talk with "Daleel" and you don't have one.



No daleel more powerful than a witness, as is in Law and religion. You have plenty of those here. You can't deny a witness unless you can disprove him.


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## Shinigami

after reading all these pages, there still isnt any neutral sources or proof of israeli planes in indian territory.
i suppose i'll have to chalk this to another of pakistans conspiracy theories 



Contrarian said:


> Not really. The extent of these conspiracy theories that have vast social acceptance showing a martial Pakistani military is absolutely unprecedented and unlikely in most nations.
> 
> While there are takers of conspiracy theories in India, the volume of them gaining social acceptance is ridiculously low. And its not for any kind of seal put on the mouths of people from gossiping.
> 
> As a nation it is much to do with the fact that Pakistan is an underachiever in all endeavours - from military victories to world technology *and then* wishing fiercely to constantly equal and better any match of India. This need(not a desire) to better India risen out of the trauma of partition - affecting India equally i may add. Failure is thus not accepted and an alternate reality is spun around hiding failures and creating glories.
> 
> The second reason is that Pakistan has always self-styled/imagined itself as the defender/fortress of Islam. Anything less than glory belies that claim. Pakistan's desire to be more Islamic than the Caliph. Thus the need to present such. And when the opportunity presents, its a zionist waiting to take down an Islamic Pakistan but the military prevented it.
> 
> Third, since its the military directly or indirectly running Pakistan, their need to show themselves as superior is a must as their credibility/capability and the need of such a big apparatus must be justified in front of people. Why the people must willingly suffer yet happily give more to the military. Thus control over Pakistan depends on it. They must show that the people made the right choice by giving them resources, that they have 'prevented' many things from happening.



excellent analysis


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## Secur

Shinigami said:


> after reading all these pages, there still isnt any neutral sources or proof of israeli planes in indian territory.



There weren't reports any of Israeli attacks on Syrian and Iraqi reactors till they were actually done  , so the point being ? Just because it wasn't successful , Tel Aviv never acknowledged it - and exactly what is that hard for Indians to digest here ? Many Pakistani sources have reported this incident ...


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## Shinigami

Secur said:


> There weren't reports any of Israeli attacks on Syrian and Iraqi reactors till they were actually done  , so the point being ? Just because it wasn't successful , Tel Aviv never acknowledged it - and exactly what is that hard for Indians to digest here ? Many Pakistani sources have reported this incident ...



what amuses me is that pakistanis think that it was only because of PAF that India does not attack  
you kids dont know anything about war or its consequences


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## Secur

Shinigami said:


> what amuses me is that pakistanis think that it was only because of PAF that India does not attack
> you kids dont know anything about war or its consequences



You know what amuses me ! 

The firm believe in Indian minds that they can somehow live to see another day in case of a nuclear war and the delusion that nuclear weapons affect only the area they fall on ! Interesting , right ? Then you think you know something about war and its consequences while rambling about " surgical strikes " and " cold start " and two front wars " under the influence 

P.S and No , Pakistanis recognize their weaknesses and never underestimate the enemy , they do not plan the best case scenarios for themselves - none of the qualities that your lot can be attributed with ...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Israel is up to no good , Pakistan needs to teach it a lesson


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## Shinigami

Secur said:


> You know what amuses me !
> 
> The firm believe in Indian minds that they can somehow live to see another day in case of a nuclear war and the delusion that nuclear weapons affect only the area they fall on ! Interesting , right ? Then you think you know something about war and its consequences while rambling about " surgical strikes " and " cold start " and two front wars " under the influence
> 
> P.S and No , Pakistanis recognize their weaknesses and never underestimate the enemy , they do not plan the best case scenarios for themselves - none of the qualities that your lot can be attributed with ...



on the contrary Pakistan has a history of underestimating its enemy. we both know that. its India on the other hand that does its homework, no matter how small the fry may be- from PA to maoists. from naxals to the LTTE


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## Secur

Shinigami said:


> on the contrary Pakistan has a history of underestimating its enemy. we both know that. its India on the other hand that does its homework, no matter how small the fry may be- from PA to maoists. from naxals to the LTTE



Making mistakes doesn't equal to underestimating the enemy

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## 500

Actually its the aliens from Alpha Centauri who wanted to attack Pakistan's Nuclear Assets, but PAF prevented it.

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## Last Hope

mafiya said:


> Read Retired Air commodor Qaisar Tufail accounts of that faithful day, He was involved in such matters.



*LIKE LOVERS' SECRET.
*
_A weirdly amusing yarn with an unsolved &#8216;whodunit,&#8217; that has myriad possibilities in Pakistan&#8217;s bubbling politico-military cauldron. 
_
A succession of disobedient yawns testified to the excruciatingly long day that the Operations staff had been through. Air Marshal Anis, the Operations boss, had gone to his bedroom to attend an important telephone call, just when the extraordinary meeting was about to be wound up. Air Marshal Anis had called the meeting at his residence to review the efficacy of water-tight measures that had been put in place for the defence of Pakistan&#8217;s airspace. Air Commodore Nawaz, in-charge of the Plans Directorate and Group Captain Tufail, of the Operations Directorate, were the only two participants of the meeting. It had been half an hour that the Air Marshal had been talking on the phone and Air Cdre Nawaz and Gp Capt Tufail were alternately heaving their shoulders and flinging their hands in amazement. Were it not for the beeps on their watches that had successively confirmed the time past midnight, they might have waited out their boss&#8217;s gossip but now it was starting to get unbearable. Both were slovenly sprawled on the Air Marshal&#8217;s sofas, as if under some kind of influence.

Finally, Air Marshal Anis emerged ashen-faced, seemingly bearing the news of someone&#8217;s demise. &#8220;Here, you guys have a look at this,&#8221; as he handed over a small piece of paper to Air Cdre Nawaz. &#8220;What do you make out of it?&#8221; he queried.

Gp Capt Tufail shuffled up closer to Air Cdre Nawaz to have a look. Air Marshal Anis asked Air Cdre Nawaz to read the hand-scribbled note slowly.

TOP SECRET PD FOLLOWING ADDITONAL INSTRUCTIONS TO EARLIER OPERATIONS ORDER FOR ALL CONCERNED CLN AMEND TO READ MIKE ROMEO AIRCRAFT TO BE POSITIONED ONE HOUR BEFORE PULL UP CMM INSTEAD OF HALF HOUR CMM ATTACK AS PER PLAN CMM HOWEVER ATTACK DIRECTION MAY REQUIRE SLIGHT ALTERATION DUE TO SUN POSITION AT TWILIGHT AND SHIELDING BY MIKE HILLS PD EMPHASISE RADIO SILENCE PD HIGHEST READINESS TO BE MAINTAINED PD NEXT FORTY EIGHT HOURS CRITICAL PD

After Air Cdre Nawaz had read it over twice, to be sure, Air Marshal Anis asked Gp Capt Tufail to read it yet again. &#8220;Don&#8217;t read out the periods and commas,&#8221; he instructed. Everyone became more confused with each reading, which was not surprising, as the three of them had had some very hectic days &#8211; sixteen intense hours daily, for the whole of the previous week. To soothe the nerves, Air Marshal Anis ordered another round of coffee while teasingly suggesting that an order for breakfast be also placed while the cook was around.

&#8220;Who gave this message, sir,&#8221; Nawaz and Tufail asked Air Marshal Anis in unison.

&#8220;The top military spook himself,&#8221; replied Air Marshal Anis. &#8220;He informed the CAS first, who told him to discuss the nuts and bolts with me. Of course the PM was informed instantly. Our guys were able to break into their top secret cipher he whispered,&#8221; as he craned forward.

A hush fell in the room, only to be broken by an old number, &#8216;zulf da kundal khulley na, akhh da kajjal dulley na&#8217;[1] wafting in scratchily from the direction of National Defence College.

&#8220;Hmmmm &#8230;. Mike Romeo, Mike Romeo &#8230;.. hmmmm &#8230;. Maritime Reconnaissance aircraft is all I can guess,&#8221; announced Air Marshal Anis.

&#8220;Sir, it could be anything. Multi-Role aircraft, maybe,&#8221; suggested Air Cdre Nawaz. &#8220;Can you help, Tufail?&#8221; asked Air Marshal Anis. &#8220;I know you don&#8217;t start your office work till the daily crossword is solved,&#8221; he added, with a twinkle in his blood-shot eyes.

&#8220;Sir if Mike Romeo was to be Maritime Reconnaissance, we are surely talking of the sea. In that case, shouldn&#8217;t Mike Hills be somewhere near the Arabian Sea?&#8221; Gp Capt Tufail counter-questioned.

&#8220;Wait, let me see if my geography is correct. Makli Hills, does that make sense?&#8221; Air Cdre Nawaz asked enthusiastically. &#8220;I am sure you know of the Makli necropolis near Thatta,&#8221; he continued.

Air Marshal Anis suggested something more intriguing. &#8220;If we take it to be Multi-Role, then we have a wider usage and a number of interpretations for Mike Hills. Margallas for instance.&#8221;

&#8220;Sir, we seem to be closing on to two interpretations, then. An attack from the seaward side, whereby some kind of maritime reconnaissance aircraft would provide support measures like spoofing etc, or even controlling the strike package during its initial ingress. The other possibility is an approach from the north, involving multi-role aircraft, configured for different roles. Margalla Hills do demarcate the zone boundaries of some of the most sensitive areas,&#8221; continued Gp Capt Tufail, quite adept at summing up complex situations. After all, he had been an old hand as an instructor at the Air War College.

&#8220;Time, gentlemen, is of essence,&#8221; Air Marshal Anis reminded the two officers. &#8220;We have just two days to refine our response, in which anything could happen. Nawaz, it says forty-eight hours, right?&#8221;

&#8220;Yes sir, within forty-eight hours, but if you noticed this twilight bit in the cipher, it could be as early as four hours from now,&#8221; Air Cdre Nawaz replied, sending a chill down everyone&#8217;s spines.

&#8220;What was the last cricket score, if anyone heard the commentary?&#8221; Air Marshal Anis suddenly changed the topic as the batman brought in the coffee tray. &#8220;Though he has been working with me for fifteen years now, you never know when these people trip up for a few dollars,&#8221; he added cautiously.

&#8220;So where were we&#8230; Mike Romeo? Any more ideas?&#8221; asked Air Marshal Anis.

&#8220;Sir, does Medium Range mean anything?&#8221; asked Gp Capt Tufail.

&#8220;It could also be Mentally Retarded, hein?&#8221; The strain was showing through as Air Marshal Anis tried a light-hearted banter. &#8220;Okay, let&#8217;s settle on the first two and do a re-run. Our defensive plan caters for both approaches. Does this Makli or Margalla change anything?&#8221; asked Air Marshal Anis.

&#8220;Sir we already have fighter patrols and plenty of SAMs and AAA covering both these places,&#8221; assured Gp Capt Tufail. The only spanner in the works is that this cipher leads us to believe that an attack from the north is also a possibility, depending on how we interpret Mike Hills. We had assumed an attack on the Chagai Tunnels via a southern approach as the most likely. I don&#8217;t see how the planned tests can be stymied by attacking the sites in the vicinity of Margallas. They have been operational for over a decade. Uranium-Hexafluoride has been enriched by the heaps and can sustain a nuclear weapons program for years. Most importantly, the warheads are dispersed and reportedly, *** every gridline on Pakistan&#8217;s map. I think our initial appreciation holds correct, that they would bomb our tunnels and stop the testing process in its tracks. Then, painful arm-twisting and blackmail would follow and, they would ensure that we never try such a thing again. For both sides, it is now or never,&#8221; Gp Capt Tufail articulated his views.

&#8220;Okay, so both of you agree that this cipher does not alter anything by way of our defensive measures, except that it hints at something imminent?&#8221; asked Air Marshal Anis.

&#8220;Exactly, sir. We have sprung up like a porcupine&#8217;s quills. I don&#8217;t think they will be able to get through to Chagai without being pricked badly. We have taken every step that we possibly could,&#8221; asserted Gp Capt Tufail.

&#8220;Sir, I agree with Tufail,&#8221; Air Cdre Nawaz observed briefly, before he broke into yet another riotous yawn, complete with a rude little yelp.

&#8220;Okay, I think we can break up now. Dekhi jayegi.[2] Now you have about two hours to catch some sleep. If the sirens hoot, just rush to my house. We will drive down to the Ops Room together. Air Marshal Najib is already manning the air defence battle station there&#8230;.and don&#8217;t keep the phone off the hook,&#8221; Air Marshal Anis instructed, half in jest. &#8220;And Tufail, I have some more instructions for you; stay back for a while. Nawaz, if you want to hang around you are welcome. I am sending Tufail out to visit a number of bases this morning to check that my instructions have been implemented to the last detail.&#8221;

&#8220;Sir, I will stay back; Tufail has to drop me in his staff car as mine has been withdrawn for use by some visitors,&#8221; Air Cdre Nawaz explained.

&#8220;Go visit the two forward bases in the south, talk to the pilots, explain all the measures that are in place and, get a run down of how they have implemented our instructions that we issued three days ago. Leave out the morale-boosting bit. That is their Base Commanders&#8217; job. Take the Air Defence assistant chief with you so that he can explain the details of the radar coverage. Also take the Direcor of Operational Facilities so that he can get a report on the navigational aids, etc. After you are done at the forward bases, repeat the same at Quetta and then stay the night there. Come back the next day. It is rigorous, but I know that you are very fit and can hack it,&#8221; finished Air Marshal Anis. &#8220;Have you sold off your mountain bike? Haven&#8217;t seen you riding around for some time,&#8221; he broke into the mundane, as all three got up, finally.

&#8220;And yes, take the Y-12. Travel in style, it is at your disposal,&#8221; Air Marshal Anis instructed Gp Capt Tufail.

Sunrays stealing through the curtains startled Gp Capt Tufail. Had he missed the sirens? He had asked his wife to wake him up even if Simba, their pet tomcat mewed.

&#8220;Did any phone ring?&#8221; he asked his wife. &#8220;Did Sally call?&#8221;

&#8220;No, nothing,&#8221; she replied.

Picking up the cordless, he dialled Air Cdre Nawaz&#8217;s number. At the other end, all hell seemed to break loose.

&#8220;Huh, what happened? Has it happened? Who are you speaking?&#8221;

&#8220;Sir, relax, this is Tufail. Seems safe, so far. I am off to the Air Movement for my tour. You have a good day.&#8221;

Gp Capt Tufail drove off to Chaklala Airport where he was met by Air Cdre Ajmal carrying huge map sheets rolled up under both his arms, along with Gp Capt Pervez Mahmood wearing his friendly smile. The Y-12 pilots were waiting and, within seconds they hustled the three passengers into the aircraft. They had submitted a flight plan for a &#8216;special&#8217; mission which would get them preferential clearances. &#8220;VIPs on board,&#8221; the pilot called out loudly while asking for taxi permission. The three passengers exchanged grins, quite amused by the importance being given to them that morning.

After a two-hour flight, they reached Sukkur and immediately got down to business. A short briefing by Air Cdre Ajmal and Gp Capt Tufail to the aircrew was followed by a quick drive-through visit to the operational areas. The Base Commander explained the daily air patrol schedule and contingency plans for his base. He then opened up the AHQ instructions and ticked each item after confirming it to Gp Capt Tufail. After the tour was over and they were proceeding to the aircraft, the three visiting officers cheered up the Base Commander by remarking that their readiness state looked 20/20.

The Y-12 took off for Jacobabad around midday. The loadmaster walked up the aisle with a serving of tepid drinks poured out of a thermos marked VIP. Within half an hour, the aircraft landed in what seemed like a hellish other-world. Except for some paddy egrets flapping around their nesting colony adjacent to the runway undershoot, there was not a living being in sight. The pilot announced an outside air temperature of 52°C and, as the visiting officers emerged out of the aircraft, a rush of searing air slapped their faces. By the time they got to the briefing room, they were drenched to their coccyxs. The Sukkur routine was replayed and the readiness state at Jacobabad reviewed. Everything seemed in order and it was noted with satisfaction that the contingencies had been well-rehearsed. The excitement of the aircrew was unbounded and they were ready for action. Pakistanis could sleep tight, thought Gp Capt Tufail.

After a two-hour stay at Jacobabad, the tired and perspiring visitors left for Quetta. The stark Kachhi Plains started to transform into harsh barren hills. Sibi lay nestled a little east of the track, in the trough formed by the Suleiman and Brauhi Ranges. These badlands once harboured the fierce Baluch brigands with whom Brig John Jacob had seasonal spats in the mid nineteenth century. Temperatures in this cauldron routinely cross 50°C during summers.

&#8220;Sir, this is a no-fly zone and ours is the only aircraft aloft, other than patrolling fighters. The missiles and guns are free to fire in the area west of Kalat,&#8221; explained the pilot as he stood at the cabin door for some leg-stretching.

Suddenly the co-pilot asked the captain to come back to his seat. After some discussion, the captain returned and told Gp Capt Tufail that they had orders to land immediately. Tufail told him to tell the air traffic control that it was a light aircraft and it could not speed up much. &#8220;Expedite, expedite,&#8221; the controller insisted. Air Cdre Ajmal got up to the cockpit to check what was going on. The pilot told him that the controller wasn&#8217;t saying anything more than &#8216;expedite, expedite,&#8217; every time he called to find out if something was the matter.

After some tense minutes, Quetta airfield was visible and the pilots set up for a straight-in approach. An uneventful landing was followed by fast taxiing to the dispersal, but there seemed nothing extraordinary. Air Cdre Ajmal, Gp Capt Pervez and Gp Capt Tufail picked up their brief cases and maps and drove down to the Base Commander&#8217;s office.

Bill Clinton had been in touch with Prime Minister Sharif, for the whole of past three weeks, trying to emphasise the demerits of going nuclear. All the while, Clinton had tried to entice Sharif with firm security incentives. He assured Sharif that he would be rushing his Defence Secretary William Cohen to discuss Pakistan&#8217;s shopping list of conventional weapons. Sharif, with a smart politician&#8217;s savvy, insisted that a minimum of 72 &#8216;fully loaded&#8217; F-16s be a starting point and, that he would appreciate if Lockheed set up a factory near Raiwind.

Tough negotiations between the two countries continued day after day while the Pakistanis got restive. Clinton&#8217;s National Security Advisor, &#8216;Sandy&#8217; Berger, had been updating his boss about the situation in Pakistan on an eight-hourly basis and, his recurring conclusion was that people there wanted nothing less than an &#8216;earth-shaking&#8217; response. &#8220;Jang newspaper is the pulse of that nation,&#8221; Berger observed. &#8220;You look at the pictures of the snarling crowds, it scares you,&#8221; he went on.

Berger&#8217;s biggest concern was that the khakis in Pakistan were belligerent also, and in no mood to settle for the F-16 sop. He suggested to President Clinton that the package could additionally include 70-odd Abrams tanks, plus 40 Cobra helos that might please the army men. He emphasised that it was most important to keep all power centres in Pakistan charmed, at least publicly, and cajoling and shoving be done back-stage.

&#8220;Holy numbers, Sandy,&#8221; noted Clinton, as he recalled his high school inter-faith studies.

Time was running short and Berger informed his President that nuclear testing equipment had been in place near the tunnels in Chagai Hills for several days. The tunnels, which had been readied a decade ago and had been plugged, were now being reopened and the work was almost done. &#8220;They are all wired up and ready,&#8221; announced Berger.

Pakistani scientists had been clearly identified through satellite zooms; the cameras had panned two teams camped some miles apart, one lead by the loud Dr A Q Khan and the other by the civil Dr Mubarakmand. Both were eagerly awaiting a go-ahead, it had been learnt.

Berger suggested to President Clinton that Sharif could be roped in with a plausibly deniable, vague commitment about an F-16 factory and, this could help buy time. All the same, it was extremely important to appease the khakis as signals emanating from Rawalpindi reflected a vigorous determination to detonate rather than deliberate.

&#8220;Mr President, if we don&#8217;t act fast, we will have only the Buddhists without a bomb,&#8221; Berger had noted in his midnight memo to the President on 27 May 1998.

&#8220;Congratulations!&#8221; uttered the elderly-looking Air Cdre Sethi as he welcomed Air Cdre Ajmal, Gp Capt Pervez and Gp Capt Tufail to his office. Maybe he had picked the wrong interjection to welcome them, thought Gp Capt Tufail. &#8220;We have done it!&#8221; Air Cdre Sethi uttered excitedly, grabbing both the visitors in effusive bear hugs one by one. Seeing that both officers were puzzled about the situation, he turned to them and dramatically thumped his foot on the wooden floor. &#8220;The earth shook like this. You must have been up in the air. It happened a while ago. There was a big tremor and then a smaller one. Right here in Quetta, all the way from Chagai Hills. If we weren&#8217;t expecting it, we might have thought it was another of those usual Quetta temblors. Twenty-eighth of May, what a day to remember!&#8221; Air Cdre Sethi sighed happily as he looked up at the ceiling.

&#8220;Okay, now you can wash up while tea is brought in,&#8221; Air Cdre Sethi continued. &#8220;I had arranged for you to retire to the beautiful new guest house for the night but unfortunately, that would not be possible. Your boss wants you back. If you are able to take-off in twenty minutes, you should be able to get there before last light. Maybe we can have a sajji roast for you, next time.&#8221;

A quick cup of tea and the visitors begged leave. Air Cdre Sethi, courteous as ever, saw them off at the aircraft which had been rapidly turned around.

The three were dog tired and just fell into their seats as the aircraft took off for another two-hour flight home. They were too exhausted to discuss the day&#8217;s happenings and nodded off, as their snorts and snores played a bassoon concerto in the midst of the propellers&#8217; drone.

Sooner the aircraft landed at Chaklala Airport, the Warrant Officer on duty at the Air Movement asked Gp Capt Tufail to call up Air Marshal Anis immediately. Gp Capt Tufail closed the office door and dialled his boss.

&#8220;Hello&#8230;.er&#8230;..Congratulations sir, it is Gp Capt Tufail here.&#8221;

&#8220;Congratulations to you too. You guys must be very tired. Okay, we will discuss business tomorrow. There are many important issues. The contingency isn&#8217;t over yet, so I had to call you back. Okay, now find an office with a secraphone and call me up again,&#8221; instructed Air Marshal Anis.

Gp Capt Tufail bade good bye to Air Cdre Ajmal and Gp Capt Pervez and, drove off to the Staff Operations Officer&#8217;s bunker. Sending everyone out, he called his boss again.

&#8220;Yes sir, it&#8217;s me again&#8230; Tufail.&#8221;

&#8220;Okay, not a word about what we discussed last night. I have told this to Nawaz also. You are not to discuss the cipher with any one,&#8221; whispered Air Marshal Anis on the phone. &#8220;It&#8217;s like the lovers&#8217; secret,&#8221; he allowed a hearty chuckle.

&#8220;Yes sir,&#8221; confirmed Gp Capt Tufail hesitantly.

&#8220;Intriguing stuff,&#8221; Gp Capt Tufail mumbled to himself as he drove back home. Enigmatically, as he stopped at the traffic light, the adjacent taxi&#8217;s radio was sputtering out the last lines of a song that he had heard only a night before, &#8220;&#8230;.. bhed pyar da khulley na!&#8217;[3]

___________________

_[1] The ringlets of the tresses mustn&#8217;t straighten, the kohl of the eyes mustn&#8217;t run.
[2] We&#8217;ll see.
[3] &#8230;.. the lovers' secret mustn&#8217;t unravel
_

DISCLAIMER &#8211; THIS IS A FICTIONAL SHORT STORY AND ANY SIMILARITY TO REAL CHARACTERS OR EVENTS IS ENTIRELY COINCIDENTAL.

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## Mav3rick

Saleem said:


> all this may have been true pre=pervez [musharaf]; he sold all the secrets and did his best to damage pakistan's command and leadership structure. until pervez's appointees are cleansed from the command and leadership, pakistan has no hope.....



Wow.....you must be really smart, like IQ in 50's!

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## neehar

india's nuclear programe remained uncensored?????i thought that americans passed sanctions on india just as present iran...


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## Safriz

500 said:


> Actually its the aliens from Alpha Centauri who wanted to attack Pakistan's Nuclear Assets, but PAF prevented it.


same aliens carried out Operation opera?

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## Windjammer

toxic_pus said:


> The fact of the matter remains. That the event of an invisible pink elephant nesting under my bed will ALWAYS be denied by the world at large until the invisible pink elephant decides to show itself in public.
> And that event of nesting will always be ingrained in my mind thanks to a nice shot of invisible video from the nesting that Ive had the privilege to see.. BUT ..I cannot prove it until that invisible pink elephant shows itself to the public.
> Any further discussion on that matter then, is CLOSED.
> 
> Do you see where I'm going with this....


 People who can't handle their drink, allegedly end up seeing pink elephants...in any case, you will find that the world is really not interested in what goes on in your bed room.....however when there is a hot air balloon up there, it does gets noticed by many.......or when say a Cow, pink or otherwise, strays into someone's field, there are two possibilities, if it's done some damage, the field owner will most likely whack it otherwise hush it out of his property. !!

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## 500

Safriz said:


> same aliens carried out Operation opera?


Operation Opera is real thing, article is fantasy from A to Z. There are silly lame things like "real size nuclear facility mock up in Negev". Israeli air force attacked thousands of targets, but never buit any real size mock up for that. Its utterly silly.

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## XYON

I agree with you Indian that we Pakistanis do not know about war and its consequences, but since your kind does know the consequences, be very careful in the future to even lift a finger to start one with Pakistan! Remember, its very difficult to defeat an enemy when he has nothing to lose and you Indians indeed have 'everything' to lose in such a nuclear conflict!! Go ask your Techie Bosses in the South who pressured the then Indian PM (whats his name??) to back out of the nuclear stand-off with Pakistan during Musharraf's era!!



Shinigami said:


> what amuses me is that pakistanis think that it was only because of PAF that India does not attack
> you kids dont know anything about war or its consequences

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## Safriz

500 said:


> Operation Opera is real thing, article is fantasy from A to Z. There are silly lame things like "real size nuclear facility mock up in Negev". Israeli air force attacked thousands of targets, but never buit any real size mock up for that. Its utterly silly.



no offence .. but Israel is a state living in fear and paranoia....
A country that has never accepted the existence of Israel and is a Muslim country and a Nuclear power is a threat to Israel...in Israel's books...
Looking at this angle,the article is highly plausible,if not 100% confirmed.

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## Secur

Safriz said:


> same aliens carried out Operation opera?



Operation Opera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Operation Opera (Hebrew: &#1488;&#1493;&#1508;&#1512;&#1492;&#8206,[1] also known as Operation Babylon,[2] was a surprise Israeli air strike carried out on 7 June 1981, that destroyed a nuclear reactor under construction 17 kilometers (10.5 miles) southeast of Baghdad, Iraq.[3][4][5]
_

Operation Orchard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Operation Orchard[2][3] was an Israeli airstrike on a nuclear reactor[4] in the Deir ez-Zor region[5] of Syria carried out just after midnight (local time) on September 6, 2007. The White House and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) later confirmed that American intelligence had also indicated the site was a nuclear facility with a military purpose, though Syria denies this.[6][7] _

Operation Wooden Leg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Operation Wooden Leg (Hebrew: &#1502;&#1489;&#1510;&#1506; &#1512;&#1490;&#1500; &#1506;&#1509;&#8206;, Mivtza Regel Etz) was an attack by Israel on the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) headquarters in Hammam al-Shatt, Tunisia, 12 miles from the capital of Tunis. It took place on October 1, 1985. Taking place 1,280 miles (2060 km) away, this was the furthest operation from Israel undertaken by the Israel Defense Forces since the 1976 Entebbe Operation in Uganda. For this reason, Tunisian sources believed that attack must have been known by the United States, if not actually involving US collaboration.[1]
_

Despite the fact that Israel has a long history of violating international laws and carrying out illegal raids against other country's assets - Some people still think/like to delude themselves that Tel Aviv couldn't have planned and even actually *almost *executed air strikes against Kahuta even though they were always afraid of an " Islamic bomb " , I wonder why ? Do they think that PAF's the sort of a force to get so hyperactive and alert in the absence of a very strong Intel ? 



500 said:


> Operation Opera is real thing, *article is fantasy* from A to Z.



So were the attacks against Iraqi and Syrian reactors until they were actually carried out  ...

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## araz

Hyperion said:


> @araz, you Ex Air Force?



Nahi bhai. An ordinary doctor. But the story sourced from a very good friend whom you all know and respect.
Araz

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## Amolthebest

What are the chances of Pakistani nuke tech. will be transferred to rogue nations? Thatswhy US, Israel and India afraid of the 'Islamic Bomb'.


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## Mujraparty

XYON said:


> I agree with you Indian that we Pakistanis do not know about war and its consequences, but since your kind does know the consequences, be very careful in the future to even lift a finger to start one with Pakistan! Remember, its very difficult to defeat an enemy when he has nothing to lose and you Indians indeed have 'everything' to lose in such a nuclear conflict!!* Go ask your Techie Bosses in the South who pressured the then Indian PM (whats his name??) to back out of the nuclear stand-off with Pakistan during Musharraf's era!*!



where did you hear that ..?


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## Amolthebest

eowyn said:


> where did you hear that ..?




from non-sencenews .com


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## Secur

Amolthebest said:


> What are the chances of Pakistani nuke tech. will be transferred to rogue nations? Thatswhy US, Israel and India afraid of the 'Islamic Bomb'.



Define " rough " ... Read how the nuclear technology spread around the world via US and then come talk here ... Be afraid , live in paranoia or eat your hearts out , do we look like we care ?

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## 500

Safriz said:


> no offence .. but Israel is a state living in fear and paranoia....
> A country that has never accepted the existence of Israel and is a Muslim country and a Nuclear power is a threat to Israel...in Israel's books...
> Looking at this angle,the article is highly plausible,if not 100% confirmed.


Your conspiracy theories are not our paranoia.  I live in Israel and 99% of people here dont even know the difference between Pakistan and Kazakhstan.

By same logic we should attack nuclear plant in North Korea, just because they dont recognize Israel either.



Secur said:


> Operation Opera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...


This is how your argumentation looks like:

You: Israel planned attack on Fukushima reactor in Japan!!!
Me: Thats just silly.
You: Israel carried many such operations before: Iraqi reactor, Syrian reactor, PLO headquarters in Tunisia, factory in Sudan... So natuyrally you wanted to attack Fukushima as well!!

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## Amolthebest

Secur said:


> Define " rough " ... Be afraid , live in paranoia or eat your hearts out , do we look like we care ?



You can ignore but the whole world is afraid of safty of Pakistani Nuclear assets


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## Windjammer

Amolthebest said:


> What are the chances of Pakistani nuke tech. will be transferred to rogue nations? Thatswhy US, Israel and India afraid of the 'Islamic Bomb'.



A few countries have the "Christian Bomb". !!
As for "Hindu Bomb"....well most of Hindus live in India, and same for the "Jewish Bomb".
I guess they have no choice.


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## MilSpec

Secur said:


> Define " rough " ... Read how the nuclear technology spread around the world via US and then come talk here ... Be afraid , live in paranoia or eat your hearts out , do we look like we care ?



Implicit nature of your government, administration and the chief of your nuke program in nuclear proliferation raises natural concern for the rest of the world. It sounds mean but that's the perception around the world about pakistan nuke program.


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## Secur

Amolthebest said:


> You can ignore but the whole world is afraid of *safty *of Pakistani Nuclear assets



Do not talk about things that you cant even spell properly , kid ... The delusional people like you seem to think that nuclear weapons are some sort of fertilizer explosives or bullets available everywhere , portable and easy to use - you do not even know jack **** about the sophisticated defense mechanisms that are incorporated in that tech ...



sandy_3126 said:


> Implicit nature of your government, administration and the chief of your nuke program in nuclear proliferation raises natural concern for the rest of the world. It sounds mean but that's the perception around the world about pakistan nuke program.



Is there any proof that the Govt of Pakistan was involved in the nuclear proliferation and **** even it was , how is it wrong when half the world has transferred it to other countries ?  ... Possibly , that is the perception - but nobody cares here ...


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## araz

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Israel is up to no good , Pakistan needs to teach it a lesson



The teaching it a lesson would threaten the very existance of Pakistan. Do you want to take that risk?DONT WISH FOR THAT WHICH YOU DONT WANT FOR YOURSELF!War is an ugly thing and should be avoided at all costs.What Pakistan has done quietly is enough to keep things at bay and a wise man would maintain status quo for as long as is possible..
Araz


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## Amolthebest

Secur said:


> Do not talk about things that you cant even spell properly , kid ... The delusional people like you seem to think that nuclear weapons are some sort of fertilizer explosives or bullets available everywhere , portable and easy to use - you do not even know jack **** about the sophisticated defense mechanisms that are incorporated in that tech ...
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any proof that the Govt of Pakistan was involved in the nuclear proliferation and **** even it was , how is it wrong when half the world has transferred it to other countries ?  ... Possibly , that is the perception - but nobody cares here ...



AQ Khan was arrested by your own Musharaff. What more you want


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## MilSpec

Secur said:


> Is there any proof that the Govt of Pakistan was involved in the nuclear proliferation and **** even it was , how is it wrong when half the world has transferred it to other countries ?  ... Possibly , that is the perception - but nobody cares here ...



The entire point of discussion is to chisel a rhetoric to understand/refute/learn perception of others about foriegn policy, technolgy, current affairs. etc. 
As far as proof is concerned time and again your rocket man, has said it on tape that proliferation was done with the authorization of the government, i am sure you are knowledgeable enough to know the sizes of centrifuges that were flown out of pakistan, if a lone scientist can pull that off, you are counter alleging your government of gross impotency, which i am sure is not the case.


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## Secur

500 said:


> This is how your argumentation looks like



There is a single difference in your argument which makes the whole difference - the presence of a very strong Intel ... PAF's not the sort of force to get so alert and hyperactive without a credible report of an attack ...


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## Shinigami

eowyn said:


> where did you hear that ..?



its true. many indian companies (and foreign ones) lobbied against the potential indo-pak 2002 war in the parliament as it would hurt their interests and they eventually had their way


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## Safriz

500 said:


> Your conspiracy theories are not our paranoia.  I live in Israel and 99% of people here dont even know the difference between Pakistan and Kazakhstan.



Israeli people don't order attacks,the government does,and they know the difference between Pakistan and Tajikistan very well....

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## Secur

sandy_3126 said:


> The entire point of discussion is to chisel a rhetoric to understand/refute/learn perception of others about foriegn policy, technolgy, current affairs. etc.
> As far as proof is concerned time and again your rocket man, has said it on tape that proliferation was done with the authorization of the government, i am sure you are knowledgeable enough to know the sizes of centrifuges that were flown out of pakistan, if a lone scientist can pull that off, you are counter alleging your government of gross impotency, which i am sure is not the case.



Well , for some the entire point of discussion in a thread about Pakistan's nuclear program is to malign it and portray it as a danger to a world as if what they say makes a difference to people of Pakistan or the obvious reality ... I have only said that _" Even if it was done with the direct involvement of the Govt of Pakistan , what makes it wrong in this case ?_ ... Do I need to give people a lesson here on how the nuclear technology was proliferated around the world ?  ... AQ Khan has said a lot of other things too ranging from " complete destruction of Indian cities in seconds " to " how everyone in the establishment conspired against him - you can choose what you want to believe ...


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## Najam Khan

500 said:


> Your conspiracy theories are not our paranoia.  I live in Israel and 99% of people here dont even know the difference between Pakistan and Kazakhstan.
> 
> By same logic we should attack nuclear plant in North Korea, just because they dont recognize Israel either.


If you bother to read posts or some senior members and Mods on this thread, this all might be something new for you. 

Just because people in your country haven't heard about attempts by IAF that doesn't change any facts. Isreal attempted a strike on Pakistani Nuclear sites at least 3 three times in late80s and in 1998, that is fact. Pakistani govt. never officially released information on these events, but messages to Isreal through proper channel were transmitted.

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## 500

Najam Khan said:


> If you bother to read posts or some senior members and Mods on this thread, this all might be something new for you.
> 
> Just because people in your country haven't heard about attempts by IAF that doesn't change any facts. Isreal attempted a strike on Pakistani Nuclear sites at least 3 three times in late80s and in 1998, that is fact. Pakistani govt. never officially released information on these events, but messages to Isreal through proper channel were transmitted.


No, its just silly conspiracy theory.

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## notsuperstitious

More chicken soup for the soul.


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## Najam Khan

500 said:


> No, its just silly conspiracy theory.



No, Its not. I have heard this from multiple sources, some of those pilots were deployed in Nuclear ADA of 98...perhaps @Sir MuradK, an ex-PAF officer can shed some light on that.

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## Hyperion

fateh71 said:


> More chicken soup for the soul.


Dude no chicken soup. It is true and it happened. I hope they declassify all the details soon, as it is pointless to keep it a secret anymore.

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## Hyperion

500 said:


> No, its just silly conspiracy theory.


One reason that comes to mind not going public with the news is the "emotional backlash" from Pakistani public. I think they are keeping it under wraps so that maybe one day, we can have bilateral relations with Israel.

The psychology in Pakistan works like this: They tried to attack Pakistan 20 years ago, they hate us, and then you'll have a whole generation who will hate your guts for the next 4 decades. And no, at the moment majority doesn't care much about the Arabs, or plight of Palestinians vis-à-vis Israel, they are more focussed on their own local problems.

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## Manas

> *How PAF Prevented* an Israeli Attack on Pakistan's Nuclear Assets



How ,yes , say how?? You mean to say enemy saw PAF in the sky and ran away leaving their mission. Great.


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## Last Hope

Najam Khan said:


> No, Its not. I have heard this from multiple sources, some of those pilots were deployed in Nuclear ADA of 98...perhaps @Sir MuradK, an ex-PAF officer can shed some light on that.



Najam, 

Leave others alone. Regardless of how hard we try, they aren't going to believe in this because their hands are found dirty. After the intercepts, KRL (Kahuta Research Labs) was raided by SSG overnight and they took control of the Labs in 15 mins and disarmed their security (that makes you guess the type of security alert Kahuta had, they weren't ready). After SSG took control of Kahuta, they set up AAA guns near the labs and outskirts of the city. Every Squadron, every aircraft unit, every AAA gun and SAM battery was mobilized. You already know much of it and I don't need to present more, just post what you know (which is not sensitive in nature ofcourse) and move on, no need to engage into _'Sari raat rhonday gaye subhay uth k pochya hoya ki si?'_

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## soul hacker

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> LOL...True that......Hit the Nail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But mostly one way, as we all can see




Remove your glasses(AVATAR) and you will see it clearly

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## 500

By the way, in 80-es Israel and India did not have even diplomatic relationships. Also how could Israeli jets fly to India without notice? This story is silly on so many levels.


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## Contrarian

You tend to have a lot of these stories where every this or That country was planning something and Pakistani army or Pakistani airforce mobilized to save the day for Pakistan again...becoming heroes Ofcourse.

A couple of the literally dozens of stories may or maynot be true but one thing is sure..that Pakistani armed forces come up with many such 'incidents' to make people keep thinking that they are under siege and Pakistan military is their only savior.


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## Irfan Baloch

my father's AAK AAK unit was deployed in Kahuta mountains. during that time and he himself has said few times that they were alerted about the Israeli/Indian air raid at least on 3 occasions and at one time it seemed that the attack had already commenced and all anti Aircraft batteries and SAM systems were cleared to open fire.

the air raid sirens will sound the moment fighter jets were detected taking off from Indian side and approaching Pakistani airs space. the war was imminent for sure and on one of those near war situations when it was learnt that Satwant Singh had saved the subcontinent from yet another Indo-Pak war.


the military personal deployed to defend our nuclear sites know very well what happened back then and they dont need any "links" to prove the story right. they were pretty much part of the whole scene.

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## Irfan Baloch

Last Hope said:


> Najam,
> 
> Leave others alone. Regardless of how hard we try, they aren't going to believe in this because their hands are found dirty. After the intercepts, KRL (Kahuta Research Labs) was raided by SSG overnight and they took control of the Labs in 15 mins and disarmed their security (that makes you guess the type of security alert Kahuta had, they weren't ready). After SSG took control of Kahuta, they set up AAA guns near the labs and outskirts of the city. Every Squadron, every aircraft unit, every AAA gun and SAM battery was mobilized. You already know much of it and I don't need to present more, just post what you know (which is not sensitive in nature ofcourse) and move on, no need to engage into _'Sari raat rhonday gaye subhay uth k pochya hoya ki si?'_



my father is a gunner and he has told me the same story. exactly.. how SSG used the cotton bags to throw over the sides of the walls to cushion their fall and they took over the premises. he was a battery commander then and experienced the red alerts himself.

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## Manas

See Pakistan as usual were getting paranoid that something might happen to nukes and made preparation red alert etc ... , when nothing as nothing was supposed to happen , they claimed victory .


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## Irfan Baloch

Manas said:


> See Pakistan as usual were getting paranoid that something might happen to nukes and made preparation red alert etc ... , when nothing as nothing was supposed to happen , they claimed victory .


prevention is better than cure

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## ajtr

Manas said:


> See Pakistan as usual were getting paranoid that something might happen to nukes and made preparation red alert etc ... , when nothing as nothing was supposed to happen , they claimed victory .


True or not trure. may be it was true..but from all such incidents/stories onne thing i like about israel's way of james bond 007 like style of "ghar main ghush ke marna".It has done it many times in different countries on different continents.

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## manojb

Irfan Baloch said:


> my father's AAK AAK unit was deployed in Kahuta mountains. during that time and he himself has said few times that they were alerted about the Israeli/Indian air raid at least on 3 occasions and at one time it seemed that the attack had already commenced and all anti Aircraft batteries and SAM systems were cleared to open fire.
> 
> the air raid sirens will sound the moment fighter jets were detected taking off from Indian side and approaching Pakistani airs space. the war was imminent for sure and on one of those near war situations when it was learnt that Satwant Singh had saved the subcontinent from yet another Indo-Pak war.
> 
> 
> the military personal deployed to defend our nuclear sites know very well what happened back then and they dont need any "links" to prove the story right. they were pretty much part of the whole scene.



my office building conducts fire drill every 6 months.. there will be sirens and strobe lights. Once it was so real fire dept trucks were out and we were told to rush outside !! I am going to tell my dear son same story to emphasize how important it is to pay attention to safety protocol!


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## Windjammer

Manas said:


> See Pakistan as usual were getting paranoid that something might happen to nukes and made preparation red alert etc ... , when nothing as nothing was supposed to happen , they claimed victory .



Paranoia, conspiracy theories, red alert. exposure and finally execution .....who would know better than the Indians.

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## Irfan Baloch

manojb said:


> my office building conducts fire drill every 6 months.. there will be sirens and strobe lights. Once it was so real fire dept trucks were out and we were told to rush outside !! I am going to tell my dear son same story to emphasize how important it is to pay attention to safety protocol!


good man you do that

I guess that was the attitude of the Indian Navy and coast guards who let Kassab & rest of the assailants sail all the way from karachi into Indian shores and cause unimaginable misery and death. I wonder what they will be telling their children? we let the killers slip away under our noses despite having region's biggest and most powerful navy 

keeping eyes and mind open helps but if its blocking by stupidity then there is no hope.

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## ajtr

Windjammer said:


> Paranoia, conspiracy theories, red alert. exposure and finally execution .....who would know better than the Indians.


That was the most stupidest joke unworthy of an intelligence agency play joke on intelligence of common people...........


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## Windjammer

ajtr said:


> That was the most stupidest joke unworthy of an intelligence agency play joke on intelligence of common people...........



At least they were spared in the ten most wanted list......it could have been unlucky thirteen.

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## Rajputana

Irfan Baloch said:


> good man you do that
> 
> I guess that was the attitude of the Indian Navy and coast guards who let Kassab & rest of the assailants sail all the way from karachi into Indian shores and cause unimaginable misery and death. I wonder what they will be telling their children? we let the killers slip away under our noses despite having region's biggest and most powerful navy
> 
> keeping eyes and mind open helps but if its blocking by stupidity then there is no hope.



Or put it this way that the terrorist supporting pakistanis let the terrorists sail from Karachi disguised as civilians.

Indian navy should now consider all cvilian vesels from Pakistan as de-facto terrorists and shoot them down.

No m0ore whining for Atlantique like incident should follow.

Blocked by stupidity, sure!

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## KRAIT

Windjammer said:


> Paranoia, conspiracy theories, red alert. exposure and finally execution .....who would know better than the Indians.


Prevention is better than cure # 226 of @Irfan Baloch

Its better to have intelligence failure than terrorist attack like Mumbai. Intelligence agency did send the report on possible assailants heading to Mumbai, but it was ignored. We all know what happened then.

I can also post sarcastically on ISI and its action against so called BLA terrorists and derail the thread, but I have said that I won't do it anymore.


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## ajtr

Windjammer said:


> At least they were spared in the ten most wanted list......it could have been unlucky thirteen.


Koi gal nahi ji....when they go to india in near future ..tab fer pakad lenge ..................


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## Safriz

500 said:


> No, its just silly conspiracy theory.



Good to have the Israeli Deference minister on our humble forum 
Well you know as a mater of fact that we the "commoners" are only making conspiracy theories

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## manojb

Irfan Baloch said:


> good man you do that
> 
> I guess that was the attitude of the Indian Navy and coast guards who let Kassab & rest of the assailants sail all the way from karachi into Indian shores and cause unimaginable misery and death. I wonder what they will be telling their children? we let the killers slip away under our noses despite having region's biggest and most powerful navy
> 
> keeping eyes and mind open helps but if its blocking by stupidity then there is no hope.


Same super duper SSG and PaF that was so alert llowed Mehran, GHQ, kamra...

What ur father told may be true, I m not doubting that pf and ssg ws on high alert. Original story took shape based on that alertness. To believe that attack was taking place is stupidity. If I m not wrong this was during Zia era. Handful of peopleknew real story!


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## Irfan Baloch

KRAIT said:


> Prevention is better than cure # 226 of @Irfan Baloch
> 
> Its better to have intelligence failure than terrorist attack like Mumbai. Intelligence agency did send the report on possible assailants heading to Mumbai, but it was ignored. We all know what happened then.
> 
> I can also post sarcastically on ISI and its action against so called BLA terrorists and derail the thread, but I have said that I won't do it anymore.


thats valid point my dear

we being us are so typical
either sides are compelled to rubbish what the other says. the premise of this Kahuta story is that the place has been on high alert since the Israelis made it known that they wanted to take the facility out and naturally would have sought any willing hosts who shared the hostilities towards Pakistan. no amount of convincing is going to help if some of us decide to reject it.

I have lived that time there and just shared my personal experience due to the military family background I have. now if someone decides to rubbish it and relate it to their usual fire alarm drill then there is no point in wasting time there. security and defence is serious business its not about bed time stories. there are many wars that are fought without firing a shot I am sure genius like yourself would know that the nature and scope of war is beyond the conventional violence we see.

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## Windjammer

KRAIT said:


> Prevention is better than cure # 226 of @Irfan Baloch



Hence, you should prevent Modhi becoming the next PM. 


> Its better to have intelligence failure than terrorist attack like Mumbai. Intelligence agency did send the report on possible assailants heading to Mumbai, but it was ignored. We all know what happened then.
> 
> I can also post sarcastically on ISI and its action against so called BLA terrorists and derail the thread, but I have said that I won't do it anymore.



Your country fellows are doing an amicable job for being in denial and digressing from the topic, ....the much flaunted ISI action against the BLA is not out of place unless like the Pakistani business men, the BLA are Indian Nationals.

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## XYON

Obviously from a time BEFORE you were born I assume!! Try Googling and without further comments I will follow your moto of never arguing with an idiot who knows little!



eowyn said:


> where did you hear that ..?

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## Irfan Baloch

manojb said:


> Same super duper SSG and PaF that was so alert llowed Mehran, GHQ, kamra...
> 
> What ur father told may be true, I m not doubting that pf and ssg ws on high alert. Original story took shape based on that alertness. To believe that attack was taking place is stupidity. If I m not wrong this was during Zia era. Handful of peopleknew real story!



Son please dont push it  the fact is that Satwant Singh did a great favour to us by preventing this war otherwise the proofs might have including nuclear residue all across the subcontinent.

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## Safriz

^^^ Its another thing that Kahuta Installations are the most difficult to attack,due to their geographical location....KANUPP being on an exposed location may be a much easier target for an aggressor...

Guided missiles and Precision Guided munitions may be effective,but Rumor says the Installations are Tunneled deep into the mountain side.

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## Hyperion

We have every kind of plan in place to protect Pakistan. 



Manas said:


> See Pakistan as usual were getting paranoid that something might happen to nukes and made preparation red alert etc ... , when nothing as nothing was supposed to happen , they claimed victory .



LOL... Don't listen to rumors. Only the threat of unproportionate response keeps us secure. 


Safriz said:


> ^^^ Its another thing that Kahuta Installations are the most difficult to attack,due to their geographical location....
> Guided missiles and Precision Guided munitions may be effective,but Rumor says the Installations are Tunneled deep into the mountain side.

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## KRAIT

Windjammer said:


> Hence, you should prevent Modhi becoming the next PM.
> Your country fellows are doing an amicable job for being in denial and digressing from the topic, ....the much flaunted ISI action against the BLA is not out of place unless like the Pakistani business men, the BLA are Indian Nationals.


Yaar why are you charging on me on comments of others . BLA are Indian nationals.... I take it as a joke. No reply on this.

BTW, yaar leave Modi. No need to mention him in each and every thread. I understand your emotions regarding him.  But he will again come to power.

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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> Hence, you should prevent Modhi becoming the next PM.
> 
> 
> Your country fellows are doing an amicable job for being in denial and digressing from the topic, ....the much flaunted ISI action against the BLA is not out of place unless like the Pakistani business men, the BLA are Indian Nationals.



its called desperation
seems like there is an internal trigger among some of our Indian friends who "MUST" re-use the same troll bag of slangs every single time when the discussion is not to their liking.

Americans were shown pictures of Israeli planes in Indian airfields and warned that any Israeli aggression will result in full scale response to the host and the attacker, the message was passed. this was one of the many times Israelis backed off and thankfully Indian government also got the message.

if the Eastern side would have been exposed like our Western side (which the Indian trolls point regarding OBL attack) then they would have been celebrating an article about the successful strike on kahuta. too bad they have to rely on denial and usual flame baiting for which we are experts at handling

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## Hyperion

Who the hell is modi? 




KRAIT said:


> Yaar why are you charging on me on comments of others. BLA are Indian nationals.... I take it as a joke. No reply on this.
> 
> BTW, yaar leave Modi. No need to mention him in each and every thread. I understand your emotions.


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## KRAIT

Hyperion said:


> Who the hell is modi?


Ask Windy. He has done quite a research on him.

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## Irfan Baloch

Hyperion said:


> We have every kind of plan in place to protect Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL... Don't listen to rumors. Only the threat of unproportionate response keeps us secure.




its lovely to be back in PDF

this Indo Pak ranting never gets old
long live the war of the words 



KRAIT said:


> Yaar why are you charging on me on comments of others . BLA are Indian nationals.... I take it as a joke. No reply on this.
> 
> BTW, yaar leave Modi. No need to mention him in each and every thread. I understand your emotions regarding him.  But he will again come to power.




MKI, Brahmos, Lal topi, LeT, Hafiz Saeed, JF-17, Babur , Agni Tele tubbies, Modi, Wasim Akram, Bakhshu Naan wala, Motil lal, Arjun, Al Khalid


beat that

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## Windjammer

Rajputana said:


> Or put it this way that the terrorist supporting pakistanis let the terrorists sail from Karachi disguised as civilians.
> 
> Indian navy should now consider all cvilian vesels from Pakistan as de-facto terrorists and shoot them down.
> 
> No m0ore whining for Atlantique like incident should follow.
> 
> Blocked by stupidity, sure!



The Indian navy should try and do a better job of saving it's nationals from the rag tag pirates, and shooting down an unarmed aircraft the size of an airliner, may have put a feather in your high morals cap but when they stakes were even, few chapters were added to that aviation history.

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## KRAIT

Irfan Baloch said:


> its called desperation
> seems like there is an internal trigger among some of our Indian friends who "MUST" re-use the same troll bag of slangs every single time when the discussion is not to their liking.
> Americans were shown pictures of Israeli planes in Indian airfields and warned that any Israeli aggression will result in full scale response to the host and the attacker, the message was passed. this was one of the many times Israelis backed off and thankfully Indian government also got the message.
> if the Eastern side would have been exposed like our Western side (which the Indian trolls point regarding OBL attack) then they would have been celebrating an article about the successful strike on kahuta. too bad they have to rely on denial and usual flame baiting for which we are experts at handling


Sir like you said earlier, we all know what sparks and trigger the debate. How threads get derailed. One Indian questions, Kahuta, Kamra, one Pakistani brings Mumbai, then, like I said BLA, just to show that how this constant change in different topics presented in one particular thread, results in accusations. 

I think most of the senior members here know about Kahuta and Israeli raid that was called off. As for wrong analogies presented, well it is presented from both sides (I accept my attempt). 

Ignore useless analogies.

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## Hyperion

Why doesn't @ everyone get that Kahutta or any single installation doesn't matter any more. There are literally hundreds of locations and hundreds of thousands of engineers who have the "critical" knowledge to do the job. Pakistan is way way beyond the "roll back" or "forced roll back" stage. It is a complete fantasy that Pakistan can somehow be deneulearized. 

People watching TV shows such as "Last Resort", shouldn't put too much faith in such fairytale scenarios. Simple fact is, if we are hit, you'll be hit as well. If the package is not delivered to your hometown atop a missile, don't worry it will be delivered nonetheless.

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## KRAIT

Irfan Baloch said:


> its lovely to be back in PDF
> this Indo Pak ranting never gets old
> long live the war of the words
> MKI, Brahmos, Lal topi, LeT, Hafiz Saeed, JF-17, Babur , Agni Tele tubbies, Modi, Wasim Akram, Bakhshu Naan wala, Motil lal, Arjun, Al Khalid
> beat that


Tele tubbies..... Never heard discussion on them. 

BTW you are right about war of words. People have forgotten the topic and discussing same old stale topics.

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## Mav3rick

manojb said:


> my office building conducts fire drill every 6 months.. there will be sirens and strobe lights. Once it was so real fire dept trucks were out and we were told to rush outside !! I am going to tell my dear son same story to emphasize how important it is to pay attention to safety protocol!



Fire trucks at an office fire drill?? First time I have heard that, what a waste of resources & height of stupidity. And I have been a part of fire drills at Melbourne Cricket Ground, Citigroup Data Centre, State Bank of Pakistan and a live fire alarm at MCG.....the trucks showed up only at the live alarm!

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## ajtr

Irfan Baloch said:


> Son please dont push it  the fact is that *Satwant Singh *did a great favour to us by preventing this war otherwise the proofs might have including nuclear residue all across the subcontinent.


Satwant singh who?Is that you are pointing towards IG killers?If so... then i must say IG had quite a telling impact on the psyche of Generals in rwp that they were reduced to take her assassination as blessing in disguise.


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## Rajaraja Chola

Umair Nawaz said:


> dude pakistan has still not recognize israel even today.



I know that. But whats your reply is concerned with my reply?
I mean what u r trying to prove buddy?


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## Hyperion

Irfan Baloch said:


> MKI, Brahmos, Lal topi, LeT, Hafiz Saeed, JF-17, Babur , Agni Tele tubbies, Modi, Wasim Akram, Bakhshu Naan wala, Motil lal, Arjun, Al Khalid beat that



LOL.. Yeah... We're such an emotional lot. I wish, if somehow our countrymen could be less emotional.

When you have to use the threat of nuking some nation, torture a terrorist / a spy, kill a soldier for the security of a nation, it's just business. Nothing less, nothing more.

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## Rajputana

Windjammer said:


> The Indian navy should try and do a better job of saving it's nationals from the rag tag pirates, and shooting down an unarmed aircraft the size of an airliner, may have put a feather in your high morals cap but when they stakes were even, few chapters were added to that aviation history.



By the same Token all Pakistanis should do a better job of not nurturing terrorists on their soil or quit throwing hissy fits on being called terrorists.

Since terrorists dont exactly fly skull and bones flags on their vessels and hide as Pakistani civilians, it would be better for Pakistanis not to come near Indian borders or risk being shot down.

I mean for all we know that PAF 'civilian' plane was carrying terrorists on board. Hard to differentiate then as you well know.


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## acid rain

Irfan Baloch said:


> thats valid point my dear
> 
> we being us are so typical
> either sides are compelled to rubbish what the other says. the premise of this Kahuta story is that the place has been on high alert since the Israelis made it known that they wanted to take the facility out and naturally would have sought any willing hosts who shared the hostilities towards Pakistan. no amount of convincing is going to help if some of us decide to reject it.
> 
> I have lived that time there and just shared my personal experience due to the military family background I have. now if someone decides to rubbish it and relate it to their usual fire alarm drill then there is no point in wasting time there. security and defence is serious business its not about bed time stories. there are many wars that are fought without firing a shot I am sure genius like yourself would know that the nature and scope of war is beyond the conventional violence we see.



Pakistan may have been alert for such a possibility and might have rehearsed all scenarios - but the part where someone suggests that actual Israeli planes were located in India and were flying over our border is so preposterous that it has to be rejected by Indians. 

What would have happened is Israel might have looked into such an option to which India would have out rightly refused - there ends the story. India ended it before it even started. India's stand has been no foreign troops on Indian soil which holds true even now. 

What we would like you guys to do is come up with some sort of evidence to prove your assertions that Israel actually brought and deployed their aircraft on Indian soil, because such claims only come from Pakistani sources which is not corroborated by any other country like any other 1000's of actual events or incidences that have actually happened and all sources have a different take on it and have their own versions - but all sources yours and ours at least point to the incidence's and events actually happening.

Which leads us to believe that this Israeli deployment in India that your sources claim is pure imagination.


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## 500

Safriz said:


> Good to have the Israeli Deference minister on our humble forum
> Well you know as a mater of fact that we the "commoners" are only making conspiracy theories


First of all there is absolutely no any evidence for these silly conspiracy.

Secondly story is silly on so many levels:

* Attack from India - did they bother to check the fact that Israel and India had not even diplomatic relationships back to then? And that the arrival of Israel squadron is more than problematic (between Israel and India there are 5 hostile countries and virtually impossible to hide?)
* Direct attack from Israel - did they even bother to check the range?
* Israeli fighters shooting down a civilian airliner to pose as it. Gosh that beyond stupid.
* Mock up natural size facility built in Israel. What for? - Never we did anything stupid like that.

Quite obviously article was written by some retarded kid who read too much of Tom Clancy.

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## acid rain

500 said:


> First of all there is absolutely no any evidence for these silly conspiracy.
> 
> Secondly story is silly on so many levels:
> 
> * Attack from India - did they bother to check the fact that Israel and India had not even diplomatic relationships back to then? And that the arrival of Israel squadron is more than problematic (between Israel and India there are 5 hostile countries and virtually impossible to hide?)
> * Direct attack from Israel - did they even bother to check the range?
> * Israeli fighters shooting down a civilian airliner to pose as it. Gosh that beyond stupid.
> * Mock up natural size facility built in Israel. What for? - Never we did anything stupid like that.
> 
> Quite obviously article was written by some retarded kid who read too much of Tom Clancy.



At best this story is by a person having a fertile imagination gone overboard. PAF might have rehearsed and deployed but that doesn't mean that such an attack was even on the cards.


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## Hyperion

500 said:


> First of all there is absolutely no any evidence for these silly conspiracy.
> 
> Secondly story is silly on so many levels:
> 
> * Attack from India - did they bother to check the fact that Israel and India had not even diplomatic relationships back to then? And that the arrival of Israel squadron is more than problematic (between Israel and India there are 5 hostile countries and virtually impossible to hide?)
> * Direct attack from Israel - did they even bother to check the range?
> * Israeli fighters shooting down a civilian airliner to pose as it. Gosh that beyond stupid.
> * Mock up natural size facility built in Israel. What for? - Never we did anything stupid like that.
> 
> Quite obviously article was written by some retarded kid who read too much of Tom Clancy.



Most are just silly stories. The presence of Israeli squadron in India for the stated purpose is true. Direct attack from Israel via the Western and South Western corridor is what was actually happening. 

Regarding shooting down of an airliner, the guy who mentioned it must be on some funny stuff.

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## acid rain

Hyperion said:


> Most are just silly stories. The presence of Israeli squadron in India for the stated purpose is true. Direct attack from Israel via the Western and South Western corridor is what was actually happening.
> 
> Regarding shooting down of an airliner, the guy who mentioned it must be on some funny stuff.



How can you say that it's true? the whole thing looks like an extension of the funny stuff.


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## Hyperion

It is true because I say so. And...?


acid rain said:


> How can you say that it's true? the whole thing looks like an extension of the funny stuff.

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## acid rain

Hyperion said:


> It is true because I say so. And...?



 ok, that's proof enough.


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## Hyperion

See, I knew that you had the requisite grey matter to comprehend stuff. You were just looking for a straightforward reply, weren't you? 


acid rain said:


> ok, that's proof enough.

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## acid rain

Hyperion said:


> See, I knew that you had the requisite grey matter to comprehend stuff. You were just looking for a straightforward reply, weren't you?



Dude you are a sane guy - which is a rarity on this forum, so I accept your words to be true

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## Hyperion

I was there. Is that enough? 


acid rain said:


> Dude you are a sane guy - which is a rarity on this forum, so I accept your words to be true

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## acid rain

Hyperion said:


> I was there. Is that enough?



 got it.

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## Irfan Baloch

acid rain said:


> Pakistan may have been alert for such a possibility and might have rehearsed all scenarios - but the part where someone suggests that actual Israeli planes were located in India and were flying over our border is so preposterous that it has to be rejected by Indians.
> 
> What would have happened is Israel might have looked into such an option to which India would have out rightly refused - there ends the story. India ended it before it even started. India's stand has been no foreign troops on Indian soil which holds true even now.
> 
> What we would like you guys to do is come up with some sort of evidence to prove your assertions that Israel actually brought and deployed their aircraft on Indian soil, because such claims only come from Pakistani sources which is not corroborated by any other country like any other 1000's of actual events or incidences that have actually happened and all sources have a different take on it and have their own versions - but all sources yours and ours at least point to the incidence's and events actually happening.
> 
> Which leads us to believe that this Israeli deployment in India that your sources claim is pure imagination.



thanks my dear,
regarding the acceptable proof for India I dont think there is any need
the only option I guess is to take it to International court and prove it with our evidence and India or Israel decide to present themselves. would they really?

it is understandable that you wont accept anything short of a "confession" by ex Israeli or Indian air chief or some security expert giving an interview with some pictures and maps etc. even if that happens then any patriot Indian will quickly rubbish it

behind the scenes a lot of things happen which are stranger than fiction. you and I choose to accept them according to our our prejudices and nationalities (nothing wrong with that and dont feel compelled about it)

my knowledge base on this subject is personal and direct not based on some half arsed analyst in America who knows as much about Pakistan as much as his chair which he graces with his behind. I have lived and visited and travelled in the mountains of Kahuta and Kashmir. and I have lived long enough to know when it was not the drill. like I mentioned earlier, as it happens I have a military family background and I have learned the details about the time of the planned attacks 

cheers--

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## Windjammer

Rajputana said:


> By the same Token all Pakistanis should do a *better job of not nurturing terrorists* on their soil or quit throwing* hissy fits* on being called *terrorists.*



Reading all the highlighted parts, why does the Indian scum Sarbjit comes to mind.... or may be nothing of the kind can originate from the snow white kingdom you prefer to call India.


> Since terrorists dont exactly fly skull and bones flags on their vessels and hide as Pakistani civilians, it would be better for Pakistanis not to come near Indian borders or risk being shot down.
> I mean for all we know that PAF 'civilian' plane was carrying terrorists on board. Hard to differentiate then as you well know.



Boards don't hit back but bullets kill as for the rest of banter.....a picture equals thousand words.

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## Last Hope

Irfan Baloch said:


> my father is a gunner and he has told me the same story. exactly.. how SSG used the cotton bags to throw over the sides of the walls to cushion their fall and they took over the premises. he was a battery commander then and experienced the red alerts himself.



Irfan Bhai, 

Thank you for your input and welcome back. Been longing to see you for quite time now and you have been away _from the place I'm supposed to find you when you're gone._

If you ever talked to any senior officer, who was holding this position in 1998, you would know about hassle created and the quick decisions they had to take in no time which worried them a lot. They did not even trust the batman or workers of the mess and things circulated in the top brass itself, keeping an ear open towards border, other on the talks between juniors, an eye on ADA and other on watch expecting anything to happen anytime. even the bark of the dogs or call at unsual time would make them shiver that 'it happened'. 

It was crucial time, one wrong move and decades of work vanished, all hopes of rising shattered. The way Pakistan dealt with this situation is unbelievable. Everyone had their own duties, where they gave output of 150% instead of usual 110% but the role I believe to be most laudable is that of PAF's. Their backup 'totkay' were weird yet good. 

They had all aircraft in air, F-16s flew with avionics, radar and communication system off maintaining radio silence. They neither received neither transmitted any signals and used paper maps. After the F-16s took off from one base, everyone at ground held their breaths till they transmitted back from destination (escorting C-130s with detonators) and the Commanders could finally give sign of relief. Anything could have happened between take off and landing, and they would not have known what, where or when. 

It's surprising that we survived this situation, without *HIS* help, we would have been nothing.

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## acid rain

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks my dear,
> regarding the acceptable proof for India I dont think there is any need
> the only option I guess is to take it to International court and prove it with our evidence and India or Israel decide to present themselves. would they really?
> 
> it is understandable that you wont accept anything short of a "confession" by ex Israeli or Indian air chief or some security expert giving an interview with some pictures and maps etc. even if that happens then any patriot Indian will quickly rubbish it
> 
> behind the scenes a lot of things happen which are stranger than fiction. you and I choose to accept them according to our our prejudices and nationalities (nothing wrong with that and dont feel compelled about it)
> 
> my knowledge base on this subject is personal and direct not based on some half arsed analyst in America who knows as much about Pakistan as much as his chair which he graces with his behind. I have lived and visited and travelled in the mountains of Kahuta and Kashmir. and I have lived long enough to know when it was not the drill. like I mentioned earlier, as it happens I have a military family background and I have learned the details about the time of the planned attacks
> 
> cheers--



Most incidents are corroborated on both sides even though the versions might differ but there is general consensus to the happening. This assertion of Israel air force parking their planes in an Indian base is no where mentioned and going by the huge and sometimes crazy media and the thousands of experts on our side, such an incident has never been mentioned even vaguely and don't think the Indian authorities have a handle on every mouth piece in India, If one presumes that this exposure might harm India or Israel's image it must be noted that many more details which are more damaging to India's image has been routinely exposed or been discussed in our media or by experts. 

All I am asking is even a half baked corroborative proof to this preposterous notion, even a mention of this from any of your allies or from those that are vehemently against India or Israel will do. This is purely from an Indian's perspective on this story which we find hard to believe - what you say from personal or other experiences is not enough for us and yes you don't have to prove it to us - but then this is not the truth as far as the other parties involved here goes hope you guys can accept that too.

And, in the event that such a thing happened, why wasn't it taken to the international stage by Pakistan?


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## Last Hope

acid rain said:


> And, in the event that such a thing happened, why wasn't it taken to the international stage by Pakistan?


Read my first post. I've mentioned it there. 

Pakistan's Ambassador to US addressed the UN and warned India and Israel during the session. 

You like to deny this because your hands are found dirty. But then again, without presenting any genuine proof, how could you say Pakistan (ISI) did the 26/11 Mumbai attack? 'You just know.'

And the very first intercept was issued to Pakistan by no one else but CIA, after the Israeli F-16s moved to India. The movement of F-16s was what alerted Pakistan. We were sitting ducks without this intercept.

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## acid rain

Last Hope said:


> Read my first post. I've mentioned it there.
> 
> Pakistan's Ambassador to US addressed the UN and warned India and Israel during the session.
> 
> You like to deny this because your hands are found dirty. But then again, without presenting any genuine proof, how could you say Pakistan (ISI) did the 26/11 Mumbai attack? 'You just know.'
> 
> And the very first intercept was issued to Pakistan by no one else but CIA, after the Israeli F-16s moved to India. The movement of F-16s was what alerted Pakistan. We were sitting ducks without this intercept.



There is some evidence that Iraq was not the only nuclear peril to Israel that Begin saw in the early 1980s. Nor was the Osirak reactor in Iraq his only intended target. He also feared the Pakistani nuclear effort because Israeli intelligence had found evidence that Libya and other Moslem states were helping Pakistan, supplying both money and uranium to their effort. (Note 52) Pakistan's leader, Bhutto, was therefore under some obligation to share the nuclear fruits of Pakistan's bomb effort with other Moslem states such as Libya.

According to an Indian official, Subramaniam Swamy, a former Janata Party member, Israel in 1982 asked him to sound out other Indian leaders to see if India would grant Israeli warplanes landing and refueling rights were they to undertake an Osirak-type raid against the Kahuta nuclear reactor in Pakistan. (Note 53) *India refused*, probably for a combination of reasons. As one expert on South Asia speculated:

*"First, the Kahuta facility is well-protected and is thus a hard target to destroy. Second and more important, India expects that any first strike by India against Kahuta would be swiftly followed by a Pakistani attack against India's nuclear facilities. Such an exchange would leave India worse off, since any potential deterrent capability against China would thereby be eliminated. Finally, India would be wary of launching such an attack against Pakistan as it would cause not only great death and destruction to Pakistan, but could blow radioactive fall-out back over India. Such an attack against Pakistan would also alienate the Muslim Middle Eastern states whose amity India has assiduously cultivated." (Note 54)*

In 1991, India and Pakistan signed a treaty pledging that neither would preemptively attack the nuclear facilities of the other.

</title><meta name="CreatedBy" content="WP Internet Publisher 6.1"></head><body><title>McNair Paper 41, Radical Responses to Radical Regimes: Evaluating Preemptive Counter-Proliferation, May 1995

This is the only article I got back from an extensive search, and not being gifted with insider information's, am limited to search out and depend on what's available on the web.

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## Last Hope

acid rain said:


> According to an Indian official, Subramaniam Swamy, a former Janata Party member, Israel in 1982 asked him to sound out other Indian leaders to see if India would grant Israeli warplanes landing and refueling rights were they to undertake an Osirak-type raid against the Kahuta nuclear reactor in Pakistan. (Note 53) India refused, probably for a combination of reasons. As one expert on South Asia speculated:



This part is true. In 1980s, the attack did not happened because India refused AFTER the warning from Pakistan to lay waste on Indian AND Israeli facilities. Israelis however did not really bothered about that, but India did because they know Pakistan was capable enough. 

The attack that was planned 25 years latter in 1998 saw Israeli F-16s on Indian soil. There was not attempt once but atleast twice on large scale.

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## PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER

Actually pakistan prepared for a strike that never came..sheer intelligence failure


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## manojb

Last Hope said:


> This part is true. In 1980s, the attack did not happened because India refused AFTER the warning from Pakistan to lay waste on Indian AND Israeli facilities. Israelis however did not really bothered about that, but India did because they know Pakistan was capable enough.
> 
> The attack that was planned 25 years latter in 1998 saw Israeli F-16s on Indian soil. There was not attempt once but atleast twice on large scale.


Sorry to bust your myth.. read the pdf file.


India-Pakistan Non-Attack Agreement | Treaties & Regimes | NTI


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## acid rain

Last Hope said:


> This part is true. In 1980s, the attack did not happened because India refused AFTER the warning from Pakistan to lay waste on Indian AND Israeli facilities. Israelis however did not really bothered about that, but India did because they know Pakistan was capable enough.
> 
> The attack that was planned 25 years latter in 1998 saw Israeli F-16s on Indian soil. There was not attempt once but atleast twice on large scale.



Pure speculations by some unknown expert as to the reasons.


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## Rajputana

acid rain said:


> This is the only article I got back from an extensive search, and not being gifted with insider information's, am limited to search out and depend on what's available on the web.



If I were you i wouldn't take all these insider info's seriously.

No professional soldier would give out such sensitive info to a bunch of kids tryin to show-off to their friends.

Real insiders are actually made to take classes on how not to leak out sensitive stuff in public domain.

At worst it could be a attention seeking pretender entertaining simpletons with tall tales.


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## 500

Hyperion said:


> Most are just silly stories. The presence of Israeli squadron in India for the stated purpose is true. Direct attack from Israel via the Western and South Western corridor is what was actually happening.
> 
> Regarding shooting down of an airliner, the guy who mentioned it must be on some funny stuff.


No there was never any Israeli squadron in India. 

1) If India wanted to attack Pakistani nuclear installations they would do it themselves. There is no any chance on earth they would let Israel to use India as its base. Surely not in 80-es when Israel and India had not diplomatic relationships.
2) Israel never considered Pakistan as a threat, since its in US camp and too far. The only concern of Israel that in case Pakistan collapses it falls in hands of some radical groups like AQ & Taliban. But in 80-es Pakistan was very stable and AQ/Taliban did not even exist.



acid rain said:


> There is some evidence that Iraq was not the only nuclear peril to Israel that Begin saw in the early 1980s. Nor was the Osirak reactor in Iraq his only intended target. He also feared the Pakistani nuclear effort because Israeli intelligence had found evidence that Libya and other Moslem states were helping Pakistan, supplying both money and uranium to their effort. (Note 52) Pakistan's leader, Bhutto, was therefore under some obligation to share the nuclear fruits of Pakistan's bomb effort with other Moslem states such as Libya.
> 
> According to an Indian official, Subramaniam Swamy, a former Janata Party member, Israel in 1982 asked him to sound out other Indian leaders to see if India would grant Israeli warplanes landing and refueling rights were they to undertake an Osirak-type raid against the Kahuta nuclear reactor in Pakistan. (Note 53) *India refused*, probably for a combination of reasons. As one expert on South Asia speculated:
> 
> *"First, the Kahuta facility is well-protected and is thus a hard target to destroy. Second and more important, India expects that any first strike by India against Kahuta would be swiftly followed by a Pakistani attack against India's nuclear facilities. Such an exchange would leave India worse off, since any potential deterrent capability against China would thereby be eliminated. Finally, India would be wary of launching such an attack against Pakistan as it would cause not only great death and destruction to Pakistan, but could blow radioactive fall-out back over India. Such an attack against Pakistan would also alienate the Muslim Middle Eastern states whose amity India has assiduously cultivated." (Note 54)*
> 
> In 1991, India and Pakistan signed a treaty pledging that neither would preemptively attack the nuclear facilities of the other.
> 
> </title><meta name="CreatedBy" content="WP Internet Publisher 6.1"></head><body><title>McNair Paper 41, Radical Responses to Radical Regimes: Evaluating Preemptive Counter-Proliferation, May 1995
> 
> This is the only article I got back from an extensive search, and not being gifted with insider information's, am limited to search out and depend on what's available on the web.


Why would Israel tell their super duper secret plans to some little socialist opposition party?  Seems this guy just want wants to boost his importance.

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## SQ8

toxic_pus said:


> The fact of the matter remains. That the event of an invisible pink elephant nesting under my bed will ALWAYS be denied by the world at large until the invisible pink elephant decides to show itself in public.
> And that event of nesting will always be ingrained in my mind thanks to a nice shot of invisible video from the nesting that Ive had the privilege to see.. BUT ..I cannot prove it until that invisible pink elephant shows itself to the public.
> Any further discussion on that matter then, is CLOSED.
> 
> Do you see where I'm going with this....



Whatever suits you, any further BS on this will be infracted and a pink tutu sent the members way.



Thorough Pro said:


> Just does not make sense for such an extreme measure. Why send just 4 falcons for escort if the threats were so real, why not 8 or 12 or 16?
> 
> If there was any doubt in the minds of the higherups that the C130 pilot would desert, why not simply assign the task to some die hard patriotic above such doubts? and why not place a counter team on the C130 to shoot the pilot if he deviates from the route?
> 
> No! I don't think the C130 pilots were suspect, or there was that great a risk of C130 being hijacked from within our borders with a reasonably good sized and efficient airforce on guard, had there been a real risk, there would have been more falcons in hte escort team with potent weapons to bring down treasure cove rather than going the extreme way of ramming it down.
> 
> If I were to really believe in that story, then PAF is not even 10% of what we believe it to be in terms of professionalism and capability.



Believe it , Its called extreme Paranoia.. And rightly so.. since there were all sorts of reports flying on they cyphers.

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## Umair Nawaz

Rajaraja Chola said:


> I know that. But whats your reply is concerned with my reply?
> I mean what u r trying to prove buddy?



Read yr post for which i have replied.
U said that india n israel cant do anything like that as india had recognize it in 1991, right?

But in the same post u alleged that Pakistan has been working with them since time etc etc dont remember exact words.
So i told u by using yr own logic that if u cant work with israel in 80s for before because u just had recognize it in 1991, then Pakistan has still not recognize it even in 2012,
So can we work with each other


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## Abu Zolfiqar

KS said:


> My generals say nothing of that sort even existed.





Yeah! Of course they do

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Being in the same "camp" is not entirely relevant here. The ISI was quietly allowing Mossad and its affiliates in FATA in 1980s to operate and arm the mujahideen because interests merged. The same way that regardless of diplomatic relations, I doubt Israel was happy seeing a Muslim country attain nuclear status - dont forget they attacked the Iraqi installation as well. Geographic location and threat level is also looked at and yes it's true that today neither Pakistan not Israel see eachother as threats. Both are worried enough about their regional security. 

It was wise of PAF to be extra vigilant and it was wise of India and Israel to call off their preemptive operation. It would have started a war.

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## MadDog

Umair Nawaz said:


> LOL just 2 mini trucks of black and white colour for 18 block50/52 jet stationed in shahbaz AB along with these trucks.
> U make me laugh u know because in every thread u give examples of these 2 mini trucks n a offer of mutations in 2009.
> 
> Dude!!!
> Even if we become their biggest friend still they will not sell us any *OFFENSIVE TECHNOLOGY* that will be effective against our Enemies in a real way.
> 
> Even after reading all the comments of senior members in this forum still u say that then i seriously think u really have got some issues here.



Again you have a misconception my friend, China is militarily hostile to US, however Israel (biggest ally of US) has given tons of military equipment to China, they even transferred technology of LAVI aircraft project which chinese used in J-10 which PAF has ordered. The PL series missiles got help from Israeli technology too, and they are in service with PAF. So please don't give me that useless argument that they won't sell us the defence tech once Pak recognizes Israel, defence relationships are just business ... this is a big misconception which a few of my fellow countrymen have !!! Here are my sources 

Asia Times

U.S. Arms Sales to Israel End Up In China, Iraq

I don't like to use fantasy articles from blogs etc to prove my point and i would recommend you too to come into real world and stop believing in delusional conspiracy theories...especially on wikipedia


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## Abu Zolfiqar

acid rain said:


> Most incidents are corroborated on both sides even though the versions might differ but there is general consensus to the happening. This assertion of Israel air force parking their planes in an Indian base is no where mentioned and going by the huge and sometimes crazy media and the thousands of experts on our side, such an incident has never been mentioned even vaguely and don't think the Indian authorities have a handle on every mouth piece in India, If one presumes that this exposure might harm India or Israel's image it must be noted that many more details which are more damaging to India's image has been routinely exposed or been discussed in our media or by experts.
> 
> All I am asking is even a half baked corroborative proof to this preposterous notion, even a mention of this from any of your allies or from those that are vehemently against India or Israel will do. This is purely from an Indian's perspective on this story which we find hard to believe - what you say from personal or other experiences is not enough for us and yes you don't have to prove it to us - but then this is not the truth as far as the other parties involved here goes hope you guys can accept that too.
> 
> And, in the event that such a thing happened, why wasn't it taken to the international stage by Pakistan?



Because even though our nuclear program was an open secret, we wanted to keep it low key and as secretive as possible. Not doing what the Iranians are doing today. 

Timing was a luxury though; it just happened to be the time when the free world needed our help to crush the soviets

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## Last Hope

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Because even though our nuclear program was an open secret, we wanted to keep it low key and as secretive as possible. Not doing what the Iranians are doing today.
> 
> *Timing was a luxury though; it just happened to be the time when the free world needed our help to crush the soviets*


So was the finance. We did not have to bang our heads, the Middle East was generously giving the finance for this program.


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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> thats valid point my dear
> 
> we being us are so typical
> either sides are compelled to rubbish what the other says. the premise of this Kahuta story is that the place has been on high alert since the Israelis made it known that they wanted to take the facility out and naturally would have sought any willing hosts who shared the hostilities towards Pakistan. no amount of convincing is going to help if some of us decide to reject it.



Back then, KRL was one of the few sites that we had regarding nuclear operations, and now we have multiple sites, and alot of work is done underground, with long long tunnels that need to be passed before you even get to the main place.

But now even though there are other facilities, KRL is still like a fort. When you go to it's vicinity, if you take a good look at those green lush mountains, you might see a well camouflaged anti-aircraft gun there, right beneath the trees in all that green netting, and then the balloons that are floated in the air so that oncoming enemy aircraft would collide into them. It's all so well camouflaged in the green surroundings. A ack ack gun appears out of nowhere!!!

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## Windjammer

Rajputana said:


> Good to know your source of knowledge are cheap newspaper cartoons.
> 
> No wonder Pakistanis have such a bloated sense of self-worth, they have cartoons to back it up.



Didn't you conclude there were terrorists travelling in the Atlantique plane...... and only Disney characters have such x-ray visions......hell, you Indians must be the next best thing, any cartoon should be right down your ally.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Last Hope said:


> So was the finance. We did not have to bang our heads, the Middle East was generously giving the finance for this program.



Saudis basically gave us a blank check and in exchange we guaranteed their security --as times were very insecure (after Makkah hostage crisis as well as other major incidents at the time)

the martial-law civilian and military governments in Pakistan also gave a carte-blanche and a blank checkbook as well -- given the urgency. The indians were ahead of us in the nuclear field and we had much catching up to do. It was a grave issue of national security.

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## Donatello

Too many Indian Trolls.......too less moderators!


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## Hyperion

Someone close this thread. It has been derailed in million different directions.

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## Viper0011.

punit said:


> an imaginary attack prevented by mighty PAF. yet unable to stop tiny drones



You are mixing apples with oranges. Not sure what juice you'll get out of it. Won't taste like either. If the US was to attack India (let's replace India with Pakistan here for the sake of discussion). Do you REALLY think you WILL or CAN go against the United States military industrial complex? Just a fact check. Not trying to derail the discussion. Reality is a reality. No one on the planet at this point would want a direct conflict with the US military. Thus why Pakistan won't take the chance either. Plus, the US and Pakistan aren't enemies. They've actually been partners for decades.....yes, the relationship's been rocky but so is a marriage.

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## Umair Nawaz

MadDog said:


> Again you have a misconception my friend, China is militarily hostile to US, however Israel (biggest ally of US) has given tons of military equipment to China, they even transferred technology of LAVI aircraft project which chinese used in J-10 which PAF has ordered. The PL series missiles got help from Israeli technology too, and they are in service with PAF. So please don't give me that useless argument that they won't sell us the defence tech once Pak recognizes Israel, defence relationships are just business ... this is a big misconception which a few of my fellow countrymen have !!! Here are my sources
> 
> Asia Times
> 
> U.S. Arms Sales to Israel End Up In China, Iraq
> 
> I don't like to use fantasy articles from blogs etc to prove my point and i would recommend you too to come into real world and stop believing in delusional conspiracy theories...especially on wikipedia



Hey dont think i believe in wikipedia etc..........

What i say is (when i mention it) *EVEN A THIRD CLASS SOURCE OF INFO ie WIKIPEDIA ALSO GIVES THE TESTIMONY ABOUT THESE THINGS!!!* i does never mean i believe it personally!!!

Dude what do u think im a kid here, like i dont know of anything!!!
If u dont know about International Relations, then take yr ridiculous excuses elsewhere.....

China used to buy some western tech from US,Israel, France etc in *only 80s*!!!!
They had berried china in defence and other economic sections in the eve of tianning square incident in 1988-89.
Understand!!!!

The Lavi excuse, which means ''LION'' in Hebrew(according to wiki.) is a joke at its very best!!!.The talk is about only design not about tech!!!!
You know first they were asking that JF17 is based on its design when proved wrong by chinese then now they have came out of new theory abt j10s who r actually a copycat of a Sukhoi series aircraft (ie Su27 i think).Now i tell u to prove this to me too that j10s r based on lavi other then from wikipedia n some blogs or internet mombo jombo

Definitely u will never b able to do that!!!

regarding PL series LOL i know that jf17's medium range A to A missile PL-6c is based on that Israeli python missile (it think) as in 80s they were produced in china under license with name ''PL''.
But do u know what chinese did!!! they copied the missile tech by making all the sub systems themselves n by using experience of making these pythons in their backyard when the Americans put pressure on israelis to stop their defence deals/contracts with china or they will stop those 3 million $$$$.

when they(israelis) stopped dealing chinese in defence, then Chinese came up with their own version of PL missiles (on which now this PL 6c is based) by copying the original PL/python missile underproduction.

Just use yr brain first!!! PAF had not gone for the better western,Avionics,Engine, weapons etc from west because of the fear of sanctions so will they deliberately go for its armaments of israeli origin whose own Military tech is western based and can be pressurized by west easily like in this Chinese case would PAF take this big risk!!

The Chinese have in simple words copied their tech now its in their on will for whom they want to sell or not.Now again these things can be found in wikipedia as well, if think all of yr info is wiki based actually even if u still hate it
We have discussed these things several times in JF17 thread only if u had concentrated on Pak rather then advocating about others in this forum.


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## Umair Nawaz

Shinigami said:


> *on the contrary Pakistan has a history of underestimating its enemy. we both know that. its India on the other hand that does its homework*, no matter how small the fry may be- from PA to maoists. from naxals to the LTTE




Dude yr killing me!!!


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## Rajaraja Chola

Umair Nawaz said:


> Read yr post for which i have replied.
> U said that india n israel cant do anything like that as india had recognize it in 1991, right?
> 
> But in the same post u alleged that Pakistan has been working with them since time etc etc dont remember exact words.
> So i told u by using yr own logic that if u cant work with israel in 80s for before because u just had recognize it in 1991, then Pakistan has still not recognize it even in 2012,
> So can we work with each other



They operated under CIA. U do know that. But Pakistan had kept quiet for the sake of strategic depth in USA wrt Afghanistan. National Interest. 
India and Israel started to have national interest only in 1999


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## Shinigami

what else do you expect? the story told here is that paf fliched its muscle and the indian military behemoth ran off scared.  the funny thing is most of the morons here actually believe that

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Someone close this thread. It has been derailed in million different directions.



Oh you're just burning with jealousy that you slept out the entire attack whilst I took part in it ! 

I told you no more late night Naswar Parties but do you listen...!  

You could have been up there with me tied to a helium balloon that we stole from the departmental store near by; I even managed to fire off a few shots at them F-16s as they entered Pakistani airspace ! Its only when I told them about our alleged Semitic descent did they let me keep the bomb as long as I allow a Rabbi to bless it !

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## Thorough Pro

nuclearpak said:


> Back then, KRL was one of the few sites that we had regarding nuclear operations, and now we have multiple sites, and alot of work is done underground, with long long tunnels that need to be passed before you even get to the main place.
> 
> But now even though there are other facilities, KRL is still like a fort. When you go to it's vicinity, if you take a good look at those green lush mountains, *you might see a well camouflaged anti-aircraft gun there*, right beneath the trees in all that green netting, *and then the balloons that are floated in the air so that oncoming enemy aircraft would collide into them.* It's all so well camouflaged in the green surroundings. A ack ack gun appears out of nowhere!!!



With todays laser guided munitions, MUPSOW, and stand-off weapons with ranges in excess 0f 200 km what good are they for?
by the way can you please provide more details regaring their numbers an dexact positions to help our enemies.......please............



Shinigami said:


> what else do you expect? the story told here is that paf fliched its muscle and the indian military behemoth ran off scared.  the funny thing is most of the morons here actually believe that



No the really funny thing is that many morons don't!


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## MadDog

Umair Nawaz said:


> Hey dont think i believe in wikipedia etc..........
> 
> What i say is (when i mention it) *EVEN A THIRD CLASS SOURCE OF INFO ie WIKIPEDIA ALSO GIVES THE TESTIMONY ABOUT THESE THINGS!!!* i does never mean i believe it personally!!!
> 
> Dude what do u think im a kid here, like i dont know of anything!!!
> If u dont know about International Relations, then take yr ridiculous excuses elsewhere.....
> 
> China used to buy some western tech from US,Israel, France etc in *only 80s*!!!!
> They had berried china in defence and other economic sections in the eve of tianning square incident in 1988-89.
> Understand!!!!
> 
> The Lavi excuse, which means ''LION'' in Hebrew(according to wiki.) is a joke at its very best!!!.The talk is about only design not about tech!!!!
> You know first they were asking that JF17 is based on its design when proved wrong by chinese then now they have came out of new theory abt j10s who r actually a copycat of a Sukhoi series aircraft (ie Su27 i think).Now i tell u to prove this to me too that j10s r based on lavi other then from wikipedia n some blogs or internet mombo jombo
> 
> Definitely u will never b able to do that!!!
> 
> regarding PL series LOL i know that jf17's medium range A to A missile PL-6c is based on that Israeli python missile (it think) as in 80s they were produced in china under license with name ''PL''.
> But do u know what chinese did!!! they copied the missile tech by making all the sub systems themselves n by using experience of making these pythons in their backyard when the Americans put pressure on israelis to stop their defence deals/contracts with china or they will stop those 3 million $$$$.
> 
> when they(israelis) stopped dealing chinese in defence, then Chinese came up with their own version of PL missiles (on which now this PL 6c is based) by copying the original PL/python missile underproduction.
> 
> Just use yr brain first!!! PAF had not gone for the better western,Avionics,Engine, weapons etc from west because of the fear of sanctions so will they deliberately go for its armaments of israeli origin whose own Military tech is western based and can be pressurized by west easily like in this Chinese case would PAF take this big risk!!
> 
> The Chinese have in simple words copied their tech now its in their on will for whom they want to sell or not.Now again these things can be found in wikipedia as well, if think all of yr info is wiki based actually even if u still hate it
> We have discussed these things several times in JF17 thread only if u had concentrated on Pak rather then advocating about others in this forum.



Dude i am saddened by the fact, that you wrote so much, yet you failed to understand one word of what i said, I gave the examples of Israel's secret defence relationship with China (which is a foe of US) cuz u said if Pak recognizes Israel , it won't get cutting edge tech...i said this to negate your stereotype and misconception...defence deals are business,,..and by all means they would sell it once Pakistan recognizes them


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## Jango

Conceal Carry said:


> With todays laser guided munitions, MUPSOW, and stand-off weapons with ranges in excess 0f 200 km what good are they for?
> by the way can you please provide more details regaring their numbers an dexact positions to help our enemies.......please............



Yeah, but all those years back, they may have been of some important use.

As for the second part of your query, I visited that place alot of years back, 6 or 7 years back. So memory is vague, and what would you do with the exact positions???!!


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## Umair Nawaz

MadDog said:


> Dude i am saddened by the fact, that you wrote so much, yet you failed to understand one word of what i said, I gave the examples of Israel's secret defence relationship with China (which is a foe of US) cuz u said if Pak recognizes Israel , it won't get cutting edge tech...i said this to negate your stereotype and misconception...defence deals are business,,..and by all means they would sell it once Pakistan recognizes them



just read my last 2 lines of post#299


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## Umair Nawaz

Rajaraja Chola said:


> They operated under CIA. U do know that. But Pakistan had kept quiet for the sake of strategic depth in USA wrt Afghanistan. National Interest.
> India and Israel started to have national interest only in 1999


Come on, Those were just rumors that israel had supplied arms that it had captured from PLO to the Afghan Mujahideen.
But still they r rumors, no proof!!!.

And u will be very silly to think that yr national interests only started in 1999.
Isnt yr biggest Concern is the Nukes of Pakistan even today???
And even today RAW and CIA cooperate to each other over this issue!


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## Rajaraja Chola

Umair Nawaz said:


> Come on, Those were just rumors that israel had supplied arms that it had captured from PLO to the Afghan Mujahideen.
> But still they r rumors, no proof!!!.
> 
> And u will be very silly to think that yr national interests only started in 1999.
> Isnt yr biggest Concern is the Nukes of Pakistan even today???
> And even today RAW and CIA cooperate to each other over this issue!



Its today that RAW n CIA co-op. First such co-op between them started in 2001 aftre Afghan invasion. If u count CIA training Indian intelligence after China war for some time. After that India - US were mostly like enemies. 
Pakistan was the darling of USA until recently. CIA became pretty close after 26/11, though mistrust remains. We are not able to trust them yet.


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## Malik Usman

KS said:


> Do you know how many Indian Nuclear facilities are there and how deep they are inside India ? If the ambassador knew geography and the relative capabilities of pAF vis-a-vis IAF he would not have said that.
> 
> Ok let alone Indian nuclear facilities. But Israeli Negev facility. Seriously ? Did PAF have the capability to carry out such a strike 6000 kms away without refuellers at that time ?
> 
> So actually to burst the bubble, no such incident ever happened. Its just another of those paranoid conspiracy theories by the Pakistanis who seek to shore up their importance to outside world.



If you think India can support Israel to refill her fighters during mission and Pakistan was unable to get support from Islamic countries during her way to Israel......, Second thing to destroy the Nuke Facilities inside India there can be alternate solution that is Balastic Missiles..


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## Thorough Pro

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah, but all those years back, they may have been of some important use.
> 
> As for the second part of your query, I visited that place alot of years back, 6 or 7 years back. So memory is vague, and what would you do with the exact positions???!!



Yes! They may have been of some use in the 80's or my be even in earlier part of 90's, today those ballons would work as markers for target practice. AAA may be useful to some extent for low flying jets, but Kahuta's location makes it if not impossible then very difficult tocarry oput dive bombing.

Second part was sarcastic observation to please refrain from posting such critical info on the net, have we not learned anything from recent incidents? I too know quite a lot about quite a few things, and majority of Pakistani fan boy members would love to read about them, but my country's security is more valuable to me then getting some thanks or being known as some one who gives good info on the forum. I hope people with valuable info behave responsibly here.


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## jhankar

As one expert on South Asia speculated:

"First, the Kahuta facility is well-protected and is thus a hard target to destroy. Second and more important, India expects that any first strike by India against Kahuta would be swiftly followed by a Pakistani attack against India's nuclear facilities. Such an exchange would leave India worse off, since any potential deterrent capability against China would thereby be eliminated. Finally, India would be wary of launching such an attack against Pakistan as it would cause not only great death and destruction to Pakistan, but could blow radioactive fall-out back over India. Such an attack against Pakistan would also alienate the Muslim Middle Eastern states whose amity India has assiduously cultivated."

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## Tehmasib

I was reading Indians members comments and I sure that nobody knows the 100% strength and tactics of PAF...simply do not try this because we are awake


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## Jf Thunder

punit said:


> an imaginary attack prevented by mighty PAF. yet unable to stop tiny drones


the drones are part of an agreement between Pakistan and America, a pilot cannot just go and shoot it down of its own free will


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## Capt.Popeye

Tehmasib said:


> I was reading Indians members comments and I sure that nobody knows the 100% strength and tactics of PAF...simply do not try this because we are awake


 
Like the PAF was awake at Abbottabad and Salala?
Or on the ground at Mehran and Kamra?


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## Storm Force

Pakistanis nukes are not a direct threat to Israel . They are only a indirect threat

If Israel ever needed they have both the hi-tech long range fighters and the pilots to easily knock out a nuclear facility anywhere within their Mideast theatre. Thankfully for Pakistan you do not come in range or threaten them directly...


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## PWFI

Capt.Popeye said:


> Like the PAF was awake at Abbottabad and Salala?
> Or on the ground at Mehran and Kamra?


What PAF have to do with Mehran and Kamra? PAF is responsible of threats coming from air, it was intelligence failure, just like on 9/11, how few bunch of idiots have been able to defeat world best and largest air force, and successfully hit hard in USA heart? If you are stupid it doesn't mean, you must act like a stupid on internet, oh wait you are indian it's not your fault !

BTW he meant that:


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## chauvunist

Capt.Popeye said:


> Like the PAF was awake at Abbottabad and Salala?
> Or on the ground at Mehran and Kamra?



You cannot Apples with Oranges,It only makes you look silly...We were and are Ready for you,Prime Example being Spanking you AF in 65,71 and preventing any aggression from your side in 2001-2 and 2008 standoff,not to forget in kargil where you the moment you got near LoC couple of Birds were shot down...So stop comparing yourself with USA...oh i forgot you are from Sour power india..

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## Capt.Popeye

PWFI said:


> What PAF have to do with Mehran and Kamra? PAF is responsible of threats coming from air, it was intelligence failure, just like on 9/11, how few bunch of idiots have been able to defeat world best and largest air force, and successfully hit hard in USA heart? If you are stupid it doesn't mean, you must act like a stupid on internet, oh wait you are indian it's not your fault !


 
And Abbottabad and Salala were from below the Sea, ehh?
Oh; wait, you are just delusional, its not your fault either!


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## Thirdfront

A year old thread got activated! Amazed to see people really believe this!!! This is lal topi stuff. I mean, who in actual sense want to bomb a fully operational n-reactor? When Israel bombed Iraqi reactors, they were under construction. Damaging operational reactor will destroy a large part of area like in Chernobyl. Apart from pak, all its neighbors (includes India) will be severely affected. And people claim that India wants to attack pak N-reactors? Delusion needs to have some limits....

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## Alpha1

Jf Thunder said:


> the drones are part of an agreement between Pakistan and America, a pilot cannot just go and shoot it down of its own free will


Please stop bumping old threads; you will get banned for doing this.

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## Jf Thunder

Alpha1 said:


> Please stop bumping old threads; you will get banned for doing this.


what? really? sorry i didnt know that, so how much old threads can i post on? and will i get a warning and reasone bfore getting banned?


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## Alpha1

Jf Thunder said:


> what? really? sorry i didnt know that, so how much old threads can i post on? and will i get a warning and reasone bfore getting banned?


Just don't do it anymore; post on the recent threads only ; or the threads which are sticky even if not active for a long time

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## Informant

Storm Force said:


> Pakistanis nukes are not a direct threat to Israel . They are only a indirect threat
> 
> If Israel ever needed they have both the hi-tech long range fighters and the pilots to easily knock out a nuclear facility anywhere within their Mideast theatre. Thankfully for Pakistan you do not come in range or threaten them directly...



You and your play with words. "Thankfully" we arent in Israel's range? Please get off your high horse, this thread may be a bit far fetched, but your insinuation is equally funny.


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## PWFI

Capt.Popeye said:


> And Abbottabad and Salala were from below the Sea, ehh?
> Oh; wait, you are just delusional, its not your fault either!


Once again you are proving, you are an idiot salala and abbottabad was intelligence failure rather then air force! If God have blessed you with a tiny brain please use it at least 1% of it!


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## PiyaraPakistan

Jf Thunder said:


> what? really? sorry i didnt know that, so how much old threads can i post on? and will i get a warning and reasone bfore getting banned?


If you dont have the updates on subjected thread then dont waste your and our time plz, And most importantly respect the seniors.


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## AUz

Storm Force said:


> Pakistanis nukes are not a direct threat to Israel . They are only a indirect threat
> 
> If Israel ever needed they have both the hi-tech long range fighters and the pilots to easily knock out a nuclear facility anywhere within their Mideast theatre. Thankfully for Pakistan you do not come in range or threaten them directly...



Israel Air Force can't reach Pakistan directly.

Secondly, thankfully for Israel than we don't share a border/region with them. We aint no Arabs. Israel is too small to even think of going to war with us, that is if U.S doesn't get involved, offcourse.

PAF have whooped indian air force *** every single time in the past. Not to mention, PAF also took on Soviet intrusions and scored 15-1, and 1 too was lost due to friendly fire as confirmed by Soviets. Then we have history of Pakistan pilots successfully engaging Israelis over Middle-Eastern skies.

Israel Air Force is farrrrrrrrrr superior to shitty indian junk force that we whopped *** of in all previous wars, but Israelis would not have found us a walk in the park..

So again, be thankful for Israel not being in our theater of conflict..


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## Jf Thunder

Alpha1 said:


> Just don't do it anymore; post on the recent threads only ; or the threads which are sticky even if not active for a long time


okay, i will behave now ^_^


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## airmarshal

Is story true? The credibility of this story looks questionable as ow a foreign air force flies its drones in our airspace and the feeling of impotency is very overwhelming to the point of desperation.


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## 500

airmarshal said:


> Is story true? The credibility of this story looks questionable as ow a foreign air force flies its drones in our airspace and the feeling of impotency is very overwhelming to the point of desperation.

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## rockstar08

good article with some shocking info


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## Capt.Popeye

500 said:


>


 
*Of Course; its as true as the "Man in the Moon".*


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## Jf Thunder

....im lost, i thought we couldn't post here?


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## Capt.Popeye

PWFI said:


> Once again you are proving, you are an idiot salala and abbottabad was intelligence failure rather then air force! If God have blessed you with a tiny brain please use it at least 1% of it!


 
Oh then; you're saying that PAF is lacking in intelligence!
Which led to Abbottabad and Salala?
Then what led to Mehran and Kamra?


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## Storm Force

Whipped India *** must have missed that one. 

Who is sitting in saichen or kargil and who controls the water supply inthis region.


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## PWFI

Capt.Popeye said:


> Oh then; you're saying that PAF is lacking in intelligence!
> Which led to Abbottabad and Salala?
> Then what led to Mehran and Kamra?


 stop embracing yourself---Same thing that let to 9/11 and Bombay 26/12!

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## Edevelop

Capt.Popeye said:


> Like the PAF was awake at Abbottabad and Salala?
> Or on the ground at Mehran and Kamra?



Where were your mighty Indian forces during Parliament attacks, 26/11 attacks, Srinagar Military Headquarter attacks and Afghanistan Embassy attacks ?

What was America doing during 9/11 attacks ?

What was UK doing during 7/7 attacks ?

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## Edevelop

airmarshal said:


> Is story true? The credibility of this story looks questionable as ow a foreign air force flies its drones in our airspace and the feeling of impotency is very overwhelming to the point of desperation.





500 said:


>



I don't know if its true or not but one thing is for sure. You cannot see the difference between past and present policies.

This so called event is from the 90s and during that period, Pakistan was not the Pakistan that we see today.

We were sanctioned, meaning No diplomatic and economic ties with the West and moreover there were No drone attacks as there was No War against Terrorism. Pakistan Air Force was well under control and people were ready for yet another conventional War with India. The 90s patriotism was like the 80s patriotism of Soviet Afghan War.


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## airmarshal

cb4 said:


> I don't know if its true or not but one thing is for sure. You cannot see the difference between past and present policies.
> 
> This so called event is from the 90s and during that period, Pakistan was not the Pakistan that we see today.
> 
> We were sanctioned, meaning No diplomatic and economic ties with the West and moreover there were No drone attacks as there was No War against Terrorism. Pakistan Air Force was well under control and people were ready for yet another conventional War with India. The 90s patriotism was like the 80s patriotism of Soviet Afghan War.




I think it was in 80s I heard this news. But then Pakistan was a lot more independent under Zia's regime than it is now. 

As for drones strikes, they can be stopped. The problem is our political leadership dont have the courage and character. I m sorry to say it, but the reality of today's Pakistan is that it is led by very weak people. If I claim to have backing of my people then I wont back down from defending them. Pakistan has been thrown to the dogs, by Pakistanis themselves.


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## Jf Thunder

lets all be friends and wish each other a a happy new day

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## trident2010

Lolzz PAF taking both IAF and IsAF .. joke of the century


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## RescueRanger

Alpha1 said:


> Please stop bumping old threads; you will get banned for doing this.


Necro posting for the win

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## Leviza

trident2010 said:


> Lolzz PAF taking both IAF and IsAF .. joke of the century



yeah man ask your army why they chicken out that day lol 

In 1998, when my uncle who was a fight pilot went a week before Pak become nuclear country told the family that he might not be coming back ... He was in air to defend the country and this whole article is real and most of the people in PAF knows this ...

As some of the things never comes to public knowledge, it does not mean they never happened , 
That was a very proud day for PAF and family members when the Israel and India both chicken out due to PAF...

One thing everyone didn't realized in the article, in 1980's when india chicken out and israel wanted to do the attack and they even started the mission in close formation so that it looks like commercial aircraft with the code name assigned on radars , PAF was in air to counter it as ISI issued warnings before hand... That day israel learned that ISI have hands in Israel as well 

Inshallah we will defend our country inside israel as well....

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## Rashid Mahmood

Wings Over Chagai - A Story of Israel's Threat to Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal 
By: RMS Azam

This article was written to mark the Fourth Anniversary of Pakistan’s nuclear tests of May 1998.
_*
WINGS OVER CHAGAI
The Role of the Pakistan Air Force during the
May 1998 Nuclear Tests*_

After the Israeli attack on Iraq’s under-construction French-built nuclear Osirak-type reactor, Tammuz-I, south of Baghdad on 7 June 1981, Pakistan felt that it would be the next target of an Israeli misadventure. The Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) had, at first, explored the possibility of such a plan and, later, put together operational plans for a possible air strike against Kahuta in the 1980s using satellite photo and intelligence information provided by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). These operational plans are still kept updated in the Headquarters of the IDF/AF and pilots of some specially assigned IDF/AF F-16 and F-15 squadrons are given special training exercises to carry out mock attacks on Kahuta. So much so that a full-scale mock-up of the Kahuta facility was built in the southern Negev Desert for the IDF/AF pilots to train on.

The Kahuta plan was made concurrently with the plan to attack Osirak using the same pilots of the Iraq mission, if it went through successfully. The Israelis planned to either use Indian airbases or fly non-stop from Israel to Kahuta while refuelling their aircraft using airborne tankers. Israeli Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft would jam Pakistani air defence radar while the Israelis took out Kahuta - or at least attempted to do so.

To this effect, India had played its part in cajoling and trying to convince Israel to carry this ill-advised plan through. However, Israel was insisting on using Indian air bases but India was reluctant to allow them such a facility for fear of sparking of another Indo-Pak war. According to a paper published by the Australian Institute for National Strategic Studies, “Israeli interest in destroying Pakistan’s Kahuta reactor to scuttle the "Islamic bomb" was blocked by India's refusal to grant landing and refueling rights to Israeli warplanes in 1982.” India wanted to see Kahuta gone but did not want to face the blame or the retaliation nor bear any responsibility. Israel, on its part wanted it to be seen as a joint Indo-Israeli strike so that responsibility could be shared. The Reagan Administration was against this plan, not out of any love for Pakistan’s nuclear programme, but because at that time it was busy fighting the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and considered Pakistan a key ally in the conflict. It informed Israel and India that it could not support such a plan. This plan, therefore, never materialized and was indefinitely postponed, and rightly so, after Pakistan reminded the Israelis that they were not the Iraqis and the Pakistan Air Force was not the Iraqi Air Force. Through indirect channels, Pakistan had also conveyed the message to Israel, if Kahuta was attacked, Pakistan would lay waste to Dimona, Israel’s nuclear reactor in the Negev Desert.

Pakistan, however, was not taking any chances. Soon after the Osirak raid in 1981, then President Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan directed PAF Air Headquarters (AHQ) to make contingency plans for a possible Israeli attack on Kahuta. In lieu thereof, the PAF Chief of Air Staff issued an Air Tasking Order to the Air Officer Commanding of the Air Defence Command to take suitable measures for the air defence of Kahuta and prepare a contingency plan for a retaliatory PAF strike on Dimona, in case Kahuta was attacked. As a follow-up to this directive, a special Operations Room was established at AHQ, Chaklala to oversee the task of defending Pakistan’s strategic nuclear facilities at Kahuta and Karachi. A study of the air defence ground environment of Kahuta was carried out and gaps and weaknesses in the air defences were filled and strengthened. On 10 July 1982, a special contingency plan was issued. In the event of an Israeli attack on Pakistan's strategic installations, plans were drawn up for a retaliatory Pakistani strike on Dimona. The strike would be carried out by Mirage III/Vs. When Pakistan received 40 General Dynamics Block F-16A/Bs from the US from 15 January 1983 onwards, this new weapons system too was incorporated in Pakistan’s contingency plan to carry out retaliatory strikes on Dimona.

In the backdrop of the above scenario, it was, therefore, not surprising that in the aftermath of the Indian nuclear tests of 13 May 1998, Pakistan felt that there was a strong possibility of a joint Indo-Israeli strike against Pakistan's nuclear installations. The PAF had an essential role to play in defending Pakistan's strategic installations and airspace to thwart any such plan. The tensions were so high that a PAF F-16 flying low over the Ras Koh test site in the Chagai District of Balochistan on the eve of the Pakistani nuclear tests was, for a moment, mistaken by the personnel on the ground, to be an Israeli warplane. The incident sparked off a diplomatic squabble between Pakistan and Israel, with the Israeli Ambassador in Washington D.C. denying the existence of any such plan.

Then Pakistan's Ambassador to the United Nations, Ahmed Kamal told CNN that Pakistan had reliable information about Indian intentions to launch air strikes against Pakistan's nuclear test facilities. Kamal told CNN that if India strikes, Pakistan's response would be "massive" and would "bode ill for peace."

"We're involved in this threat and in making sure that it does not arise because if it does, the world must understand that Pakistan is ready, that it will react, that the reaction will be massive and dissuasive, and that it would lead us into a situation which would bode ill for peace and security, not only in the region, but beyond," Kamal said.

As soon as the decision to conduct the nuclear tests had been taken, the PAF was ordered to assume air defence duties over Chagai and the strategic nuclear installations of Pakistan, including Kahuta, Nilore, Fatehjung, Chashma, Khushab and Karachi.

Operation Bedaar ’98: PAF Squadron Roles during Chagai

The PAF operations for the defence of Pakistan’s strategic nuclear installations during the May 1998 nuclear tests were codenamed “Operation Bedaar ’98” by the PAF.

This was a unique operation in which all four PAF command sector Headquarters (HQ) were involved, namely:

(a) HQ NORSEC (Northern Sector) based at PAF Chaklala (Rawalpindi, Punjab) and falling under the control of the Northern Air Command (NAC) at Peshawar;

(b) HQ CENSEC (Central Sector) under the Central Air Command (CAC) and both based at PAF Sargodha (Punjab);

(c) HQ WESSEC (Western Sector) based at PAF Base Samungli (Quetta, Balochistan) also falling under the command of CAC; and

(d) HQ SOUSEC (Southern Sector) based at PAF Faisal (Karachi, Sindh) and falling under the control of the Southern Air Command (SAC), also based at Karachi.

No. 6 Air Transport Squadron (ATS) Squadron, equipped with C-130 “Hercules” medium-lift tactical transport aircraft and based at PAF Base Chaklala, commanded by Group Captain Sarfraz Ahmad Khan, extended the necessary logistical support to the rest of the PAF squadrons that were being redeployed for air defence alert (ADA) duties. The Squadron carried a total of 12,66,615 lbs. loads in 71 separate sorties during the nuclear tests.

No. 7 Tactical Attack (TA) Squadron, equipped with ex-Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Mirage III EAs having recently undergone Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE I) upgrades at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra and based at PAF Base Masroor (Karachi, Sindh), commanded by Wg. Cdr. Shahid Mahmood were moved to PAF Base Shabaz (Jacobabad, Balochistan) for day-night ADA duties. This squadron is now due to be transformed into a multi-role squadron following the ROSE upgrades and after being equipped with new radar.

The PAF’s elite No. 9 Multi-Role (MR) Squadron “Griffins” (falling under No. 34 Wing led by Grp. Capt. Shahid Shigri), equipped with F-16As, commanded by Wg. Cdr. Azher Hasan, was deployed at PAF Samungli (Quetta, Balochistan) on 27 May 1998 to provide night-time air defence cover to the nuclear test sites at Ras Koh and Kharan.

No. 11 MR Squadron "Arrows" (No. 34 Wing), equipped with F-16A/Bs commanded by Gp. Capt. Akhtar H. Bukhari was moved to PAF Shabaz for day-night ADA duties on 24 May 1998.

No. 14 MR Squadron “The Tail Choppers”, equipped with F-7P aircraft and based at PAF Sargodha, commanded by Wg. Cdr. M. Jamshaid Khan, was deployed at PAF Base Chaklala for the point defence of KRL, Kahuta; PINSTECH, Nilore and NDC, Fatehjung.

No. 17 Air Superiority (AS) Squadron "Tigers" (falling under No. 31 Wing led by Grp. Capt. Rashid Hasan Bukhari), then equipped with F-6 aircraft and commanded by Wg. Cdr. Muhammad Jamil Memon carried out standing day-time Combat Air Patrol (CAP) missions from its parent base, PAF Base Samungli and its Forward Operational Bases (FOBs), PAF Bases Shahbaz and Sukker (Sindh) respectively. No. 17 Squadron was re-quipped with F-7PG aircraft from China on 27 March 2002.

No. 23 Squadron "Talons" (No. 31 Wing), then equipped with F-6 aircraft and based at PAF Base Samungli, commanded by Wg. Cdr. Ghulam Mustafa Abbasi was deployed at PAF Base Sukker for about a week for day-time ADA duties. Members of the Squadron who participated in the ADA duties included Wg. Cdr. Irfan Idrees, Sqn. Ldr. Khan Maqbool, Flt. Lt. Anwer Karim, Flt. Lt. S. Atta, Flt. Lt. Waqas Moshin, Flt. Lt. Zeeshan Saeed, Flt. Lt. Aamir Shaukat, Flt. Lt. Ali Asher, Flt. Lt. Nadeem Afzal and Flt. Lt. Nasir Jamal. No. 23 Squadron is also scheduled to be re-quipped with F-7PG aircraft from China later this year.

At PAF Base Samungli, F-6 aircraft belonging to the re-equipped No. 25 MR Squadron (now a SAGEM-upgraded Mirage V EF (ROSE II) squadron) and which were being kept in reduced flying status (hot storage) by the Field Maintenance Unit (FMU) at the Base were also activated and made operational in a day’s notice for emergency back-up if the need arose.

No. 314 Ground Combateers Wing of the PAF, located at PAF Samungli was tasked with providing enhanced ground security cover to the F-16s of Nos. 9 and 11 Squadrons deployed at the Base.

No. 481 Control & Reporting Centre (CRC) based at PAF Base, Lahore, along with seven Mobile Pulse-Doppler Radar (MPDR), was deployed at designated sites till the exercise was called off on 1 June 1998. No. 482 CRC based at PAF Base Malir (Karachi) deployed its MPDR-45 radar in the Sukker area at short notice on 21 May 1998. The radar handled a number of CAP missions that were launched to counter any aerial threat to the nuclear installations. No. 484 CRC based at PAF Chaklala remained on usual alert for the point defence of Kahuta. No. 486 CRC based at PAF Chaklala since November 1985 has been exclusive assigned to the task of defending Pakistan’s nuclear installations. It deployed its MPDR-90P radar at Pasni, Balochistan at short notice to detect any attack approaching from the sea. No. 403, a mobile Squadron based at PAF Base, Lahore and equipped with TPS-43G high altitude surveillance radar also participated in Bedaar’98. No. 408 Squadron based at PAF Malir, (near Karachi) and equipped with FPS-20A high-altitude long range static radar and TPS-43G high altitude radar successfully controlled a number of hot CAP mission and intercepted US Navy aircraft flying close to Pakistan’s 12 nautical mile wide territorial sea. Incidentally, this was the same squadron that participated in the several joint PAF/USN exercises called "Inspired Alert" between 1994 and 1997 in which the Squadron had experienced an opportunity to intercept aircraft like the F-14s and F-18s. No. 410 Squadron equipped with TPS-43G radar provided round-the-clock operations and controlled 26 high altitude CAPS during Operation Bedaar’98. No. 4091 Squadron based at Kirana Hills near Sargodha and equipped with Siemens MPDR-90 low-level static radar located at a height of 1,600 feet, provided a surveillance capability for the point defence of Sargodha Air Base and the Central Ammunition Depot (CAD) with its ability to detect aircraft flying at low level at extended ranges.

No. 541 Squadron, a mobile Surface-to-Air-Missile (SAM) squadron based at PAF Chaklala, and equipped with Crotale 2000 performed its duties for the point defence of Kahuta. No. 904 Squadron, based at Murree and equipped with MPDR-90S radar provided both independent and hooked-up mode operations with No. 486 CRC by providing early warning on low and medium level ingressing aircraft towards the national vital points from Indian-occupied Jammu & Kashmir. No. 451 Squadron, a mobile SAM squadron based at PAF Chaklala, and equipped with the Crotale 2000 SAM system provided air defence to the Kahuta and Nilore area. No. 454 Squadron, a mobile SAM squadron based PAF Chaklala, and equipped with the Crotale 2000 SAM system provided air defence cover to the national vital points. No. 455 Squadron, a mobile SAM squadron, deployed in the Kilo area and equipped with the Crotale 4000 SAM system provided air defence cover to the national vital points. No. 242 Squadron, a mobile SAM squadron, based at PAF Base Rafiqui, and equipped with the French Mistral SAM system provided air defence cover to PAF air bases. No.471 Squadron, a SAM squadron, based at PAF Chaklala and equipped with the Black Arrow (Chinese Red Flag II) high-altitude SAM system provided day-night air defence coverage upto 80,000 feet over the Kahuta, Nilore and Fatehjung area.

It was felt that a joint Indo-Israeli attack could target not only Pakistan's nuclear installations but the nuclear test sites at Ras Koh and Kharan as well. According to intelligence reports, US and Indian intelligence did not know about the Kharan Desert site, which came as a total surprise to them. To counter any high-level threat emanating from the west or south-west, a TPS-43G high level radar had been permanently deployed in the Quetta area since October 1982. The same radar was, therefore, used to provide surveillance on all flying aircraft in the Chagai area.

Dalbandin Airfield had an important role to play during Pakistan’s May 1998 nuclear tests. In fact, two names gained prominence around the world during the tests: (i) Chagai Hills and (ii) Dalbandin airfield. Dalbandin is located among sand dunes some 30 km south-east of the Chagai Hills near the Pakistan-Afghanistan Border. The Koh Khambaran Massif in the Ras Koh Mountain Range, the site of Pakistan's nuclear test, lies south of the Chagai Hills and Dalbandin.

The airfield at Dalbandin was constructed in 1935 to serve as a satellite for Samungli Air Base at Quetta. During the Second World War, it was made operational by the Royal Air Force in order to counter a possible Russian invasion through Iran and Afghanistan. During the 1970s, Dalbandin remained a disused airfield. Although the airstrip is visible from extremely high altitude, pilots making landing approaches often find the airstrip disappearing from view, with sand dunes and sand collected on the runway obscuring it - like a natural camouflage. Dust storms are frequent and cause delays in take-off and landing schedules. The airfield was taken over by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) in 1985, it received a major face-lift and overhaul, which provided modern navigational aids, air traffic control facilities, a passenger terminal and a paved runway. There are regularly scheduled Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) services to the airport. While not a military facility, this airfield is available to the PAF for emergency landing and recovery of aircraft during peacetime and wartime. During May 1998, Dalbandin air field became the centre of activity for all personnel, military and civilian, flying to and from the nuclear tests sites to the rest of the country.

The nuclear devices were themselves flown in semi-knocked down (SKD) sub-assembly form on two flights of PAF C-130 Hercules tactical transport aircraft from PAF Chaklala in northern Punjab to Dalbandin airfield, escorted even within Pakistani airspace by four PAF F-16As armed with air-to-air missiles. At the same time, PAF F-7P air defence fighters, also armed with air-to-air missiles, were on CAP guarding the aerial frontiers of Pakistan against intruders. Both the nuclear devices (the bomb mechanism, the HMX explosive shields and casing) and the fissile material (the highly enriched uranium components) were divided into separate consignments and flown on separate flights of the Hercules. The PAEC did not want to put all its nuclear eggs in one basket in case something adverse was to happen to the aircraft. The security of the devices and the fissile material was so strict that that PAF F-16 escort pilots had been secretly given standing orders that in the unlikely event of the C-130 being hijacked or flown outside of Pakistani airspace, they were to shoot down the aircraft before it left Pakistan’s airspace. The F-16s were ordered to escort the C-130s to the Dalbandin airfield in Balochistan with their radio communications equipment turned off so that no orders, in the interim, could be conveyed to them to act otherwise. They were also ordered to ignore any orders to the contrary that got through to them during the duration of the flight even if such orders seemingly originated from Air Headquarters.

On 30 May 1998, when Pakistan sixth nuclear device shook the ground in the Kharan Desert, Operation Bedaar '98 had accomplished its mission - that of deterring any misadventure by either India or Israel to strike at Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure.

But how real was the possibility of a joint or unilateral Israeli or Indian raid on Pakistan's nuclear installations during May 1998? The answer is that we really don't know. The threat is of such a nature that it can neither be overestimated nor underestimated. Overestimation may lead to minor diplomatic embarrassment, but underestimation will surely lead to catastrophe for Pakistan. So Pakistan prefers to overestimate the threat and pay the price of minor diplomatic embarrassment rather than underestimate it and face the prospective annihilation. This is not to say that the threat was never there during May 1998. Pakistan preferred to be safe rather than sorry. Furthermore, there is concrete evidence that India and Israeli have been planning exactly such an operation to neutralize Pakistan's nuclear capability. It is only the PAF and the risk of nuclear retaliation that is holding them back.

According to an Indian official, Subramaniam Swamy, a former member of the Hindu fundamentalist and extremist Bharati Janata Party (BJP) that rules India today, Israel in 1982 asked him to sound out other Indian leaders to see if India would grant Israeli warplanes landing and refueling rights were they to undertake an Osirak-type raid against the Kahuta nuclear reactor in Pakistan. India refused, probably for a combination of reasons. As one expert on South Asia speculated:

"First, the Kahuta facility is well-protected and is thus a hard target to destroy. Second and more important, India expects that any first strike by India against Kahuta would be swiftly followed by a Pakistani attack against India's nuclear facilities. Such an exchange would leave India worse off, since any potential deterrent capability against China would thereby be eliminated. Finally, India would be wary of launching such an attack against Pakistan as it would cause not only great death and destruction to Pakistan, but could blow radioactive fall-out back over India. Such an attack against Pakistan would also alienate the Muslim Middle Eastern states whose amity India has assiduously cultivated."

In a meeting in Paris in July 1985, senior Israeli diplomats and a personal envoy of the late Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi reportedly examined the option in detail. As an incentive, Israel held out an offer to cooperate with India on military intelligence, defence production and transfer or technology. Yitzhak Rabin, then the Israeli Defence Minister, reportedly pinned a lot of hope on that meeting. But India, which had not yet forged diplomatic ties with the Jewish state, ultimately rejected the proposal, ostensibly because of the fear of possible nuclear retaliation by Pakistan and for fear of a possible backlash by Islamic states, including an oil embargo against it by the Muslim member-states of OPEC.

In 1991, India and Pakistan signed a treaty pledging that neither would preemptively attack the nuclear facilities of the other. However, as India’s and Pakistan’s animosity grows, this treaty has been rendered toothless and is unlikely to be adhered to by either side.

In the early 1990s, reports surfaced in London claiming Israel had repeatedly tried to pressure India into launching a joint strike on Pakistan's nuclear weapons development plant at Kahuta. The reports claimed Israeli and Indian pilots would be aided by detailed satellite photographs of Kahuta provided by convicted spy Jonathan Pollard.

According to a report in The Washington Times, citing US officials, Pakistan’s then Foreign Secretary Shamshad Ahmed had notified the US government and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan that Israeli and Indian warplanes, equipped with long-range refueling gear and operating out of India, had planned to attack Pakistani nuclear facilities at dawn on Thursday, 28 May 1998.

It is possible that for Kahuta, the Israelis will use F-15 Strike Eagles to carry out the actual attack with F-16s providing air cover - a reversal of the roles in the operation against Osirak. Furthermore, it is almost certain that if Israel ever attempted to take out Pakistan’s nuclear weapons facilities, Kahuta will not be the only target and it is highly likely that the Plutonium Reactor at Khushab and the National Development Complex (NDC) at Fatehjung, among others, will be additional targets high on the priority list of the Israelis.

Senior Israeli military intelligence officials had, of course, dismissed the notion that any kind of attack was being contemplated against Pakistan. Pakistan and India "are coming out of the closet and they are trying to drag us with them," one senior intelligence official said. "We have nothing to do with it. They are trying to force us into being a party in this. "The official also maintained that Pakistan's infamous espionage and counter-espionage agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), was acting on "faulty intelligence." The Israelis maintained that the misinformation may have been propaganda fed to them from some other body, the Iranians perhaps. "They took it seriously. They could have believed it, but they did the responsible thing and checked it out with the Americans," the official said. Not that the Americans could be trusted, given the fact that it was the United States which has supplied all the information and satellite photos of Pakistan's nuclear installations to both Israel and India.

The assessment in Israel is that it does not believe that Pakistan sees the Jewish State as its enemy - not directly and at least not in the short-run. Israeli intelligence officials also do not believe that Pakistan has transferred nuclear or missile technology to nuclear-wannabe Iran. Moreover, they have no proof that Pakistan is or intends to engage in any nuclear cooperation with any other country. An Israeli defence analyst commented to this effect, "Pakistan will not transfer nuclear know-how to any other Muslim country, not out of fear of Israel, but because that would diminish its own importance in the Islamic World. Today, Pakistan is the Islamic world's sole nuclear power, if there are two, Pakistan's position would be reduced. So it is using its nuclear prowess not only as a deterrent against its enemies but also to bolster its relationship with its strategic friends".

Shai Feldman, Director of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University in Israel once stated, "I am certain that the Pakistanis have enough trouble on their hands and would refrain from doing something that would actually increase Israel's incentive to cooperate with India. Why would they buy another enemy when the situation is as bad as it is?" Feldman said. "They are not stupid, and they probably know that if we had any evidence of transfer of technology to one of our adversaries then Israel would react and it wouldn't be very pleasant," he added.

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## trident2010

Leviza said:


> yeah man ask your army why they chicken out that day lol



Political decision, international politics is where India shines and good at. They successfully made your nuclear program illegitimate and now its a white elephant for you without risking a single Indian life to do that.


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## FaujHistorian

Rashid Mahmood said:


> ...... a PAF F-16 flying low over the Ras Koh test site in the Chagai District of Balochistan on the eve of the Pakistani nuclear tests was, for a moment, mistaken by the personnel on the ground, to be an Israeli warplane. ....




hahahaha. 

What a jack @rse story. 

So Pakistani military on the ground did not forking know that our own F-16 is flying up above. 

What kind of f@rty story is this?

Do you guys even read before printing the BS?

Do you. 

I don't think so.


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## Rashid Mahmood

FaujHistorian said:


> hahahaha.
> 
> What a jack @rse story.
> 
> So Pakistani military on the ground did not forking know that our own F-16 is flying up above.
> 
> What kind of f@rty story is this?
> 
> Do you guys even read before printing the BS?
> 
> Do you.
> 
> I don't think so.



Well your the intelligent one only I guess who actually "reads" , but doesn't understand....

BTW the language you use, show's what kinda things you read......


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## FaujHistorian

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Well your the intelligent one only I guess who actually "reads" , but doesn't understand....
> 
> BTW the language you use, show's what kinda things you read......




Did you even read the line where it says "Pakistani ground staff could not even recognize our own forking F-16".

Do you

or didn't you?


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## Panther 57

Rashid Mahmood said:


> "First, the Kahuta facility is well-protected and is thus a hard target to destroy. Second and more important, India expects that any first strike by India against Kahuta would be swiftly followed by a Pakistani attack against India's nuclear facilities. Such an exchange would leave India worse off"


I like this and how true it is. Unfortunately, neither the Is nor the U knows where it is otherwise it would have been long neutralised. Keep searching.


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## Rashid Mahmood

FaujHistorian said:


> Did you even read the line where it says "Pakistani ground staff could not even recognize our own forking F-16".
> 
> Do you
> 
> or didn't you?



I wonder how you ended up to be a "think tank" by using such language.....


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## FaujHistorian

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I wonder how you ended up to be a "think tank" by using such language.....



So you can spread BS articles and when someone points that out,

you refuse to accept your silly mistakes 

and instead

try to shoot the messenger. 

Shabash bahi



Panther 57 said:


> I like this and how true it is. Unfortunately, neither the Is nor the U knows where it is otherwise it would have been long neutralised. Keep searching.




Oh Bhai

We are not bunch of Islamist and Ayatullah baffoons that people can neutralize our stuff. 

Why do you spread ignorance?

Why?


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## Rashid Mahmood

FaujHistorian said:


> So you can spread BS articles and when someone points that out,
> 
> you refuse to accept your silly mistakes
> 
> and instead
> 
> try to shoot the messenger.
> 
> Shabash bahi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Bhai
> 
> We are not bunch of Islamist and Ayatullah baffoons that people can neutralize our stuff.
> 
> Why do you spread ignorance?
> 
> Why?




I am not your bhai and neither am I shooting anyone.

If posting an article is a "silly mistake", then what would you call your "filthy language", which I am sure you would be proud of. 

I wonder why such a well known forum accepts such members who do even know how to talk decently.


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## FaujHistorian

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I am not your bhai and neither am I shooting anyone.
> 
> If posting an article is a "silly mistake", then what would you call your "filthy language", which I am sure you would be proud of.
> 
> I wonder why such a well known forum accepts such members who do even know how to talk decently.



Read it before posting

It is Pakistani habit to constantly post rubbish and rumors as long as they satisfy Islamist birdies.

Oh and back to the topic

you haven't answered my question on #341


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## Rashid Mahmood

FaujHistorian said:


> Read it before posting
> 
> It is Pakistani habit to constantly post rubbish and rumors as long as they satisfy Islamist birdies.
> 
> Oh and back to the topic
> 
> you haven't answered my question on #341



The same article was posted in a thread 
WINGS OVER CHAGAI

on the same forum by another think tank @fatman17, so is he silly to..?


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## FaujHistorian

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The same article was posted in a thread
> WINGS OVER CHAGAI
> 
> on the same forum by another think tank @fatman17, so is he silly to..?



So you buy into this rumor that Pakistani ground staff could not ID their own forking F-16?

Do you?


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## Rashid Mahmood

FaujHistorian said:


> So you buy into this rumor that Pakistani ground staff could not ID their own forking F-16?
> 
> Do you?



I don't care about one such "rumour" or maybe slight altercation by the writer....

The atomic energy ground staff may not have been trained to "identify" low flying supersonic fighter aircraft at dawn with low visibility. 

It was a mistake by maybe one odd person who may have never seen an F-16, otherwise they would have shot down the aircraft if they were sure.

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## Mughi

You have no Idea of Israeli Zionists my friend. I recommend you to research and then comment.. Do you know there history and their previous strategies to dominate the major geographical areas ? Mentioning the name doesn't mean they don't have any issues with us. *RESEARCH ! *


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## MastanKhan

Rashid Mahmood said:


> I don't care about one such "rumour" or maybe slight altercation by the writer....
> 
> The atomic energy ground staff may not have been trained to "identify" low flying supersonic fighter aircraft at dawn with low visibility.
> 
> It was a mistake by maybe one odd person who may have never seen an F-16, otherwise they would have shot down the aircraft if they were sure.




Hi,

It is difficult to recognize this small and fast moving aircraft under any circumstances---and if it is at dawn and low visibility---makes it extremely difficult to say who's aircraft it is---.

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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is difficult to recognize this small and fast moving aircraft under any circumstances---and if it is at dawn and low visibility---makes it extremely difficult to say who's aircraft it is---.


A quote by an F-16 pilot was that this small profile fighter is so fast and its attack so sudden that by the time you know it... its too late

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## MilSpec

The off-topic squabble from both the sides is extremely appalling. Indian members trying to score points of tragedies caused by drones and pakistani members responding by mocking mumbai attacks.... I wish if both sides could ever came in contact with a victim from the other side, and look them in the eye and say the crap they are saying here....

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## Beny Karachun

What is your source, Facebook?

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## Joe Shearer

S_O_C_O_M said:


> *How safe are Pakistan`s nuclear assets*​
> INDIA`S explosion of its nuclear device in 1974 drew only a customary show of concern from the western powers. But Pakistan`s nuclear programmeme, initiated in response to the Indian acquisition of nuclear weapons, evoked immediate and serious concern from the same quarters. Ever since, Pakistan has been under immense pressure to scrap its programm while the Indians remain uncensored.
> 
> That western attitude was discriminatory can also be seen by the religious colour it gave to Pakistan`s bomb by calling it an `Islamic bomb`. One has never heard of the Israeli bomb being called a `Jewish Bomb`, or the Indian bomb a `Hindu Bomb`, or the American and British bomb a `Christian Bomb` or the Soviet bomb a `Communist` (or an `Atheist) Bomb`. The West simply used Pakistan`s bomb to make Islam synonymous with aggression and make its nuclear programme a legitimate target, knowing full well that it merely served a defensive purpose and was not even remotely associated with Islam.
> 
> With India going nuclear soon after playing a crucial role in dismembering Pakistan in 1971 and enjoying an overwhelming conventional military superiority over Pakistan in the ratio of 41, a resource strapped Pakistan was pushed to the wall. Left with no other choice but to develop a nuclear deterrent to ward off future Indian threats, Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto declared Pakistanis will eat grass but make a nuclear bomb. And sure enough, they did it. Soon, however, both he and the nuclear programme were to become non-grata. Amid intense pressure, sanctions and vilification campaign, Henry Kissinger personally delivered to a defiant Bhutto the American threat give up your nuclear programme or else we will make a horrible example of you`.
> 
> And a horrible example was made of Bhutto for his defiance. But he had enabled Pakistan to become the 7th nuclear power in the world. This served Pakistan well. India was kept at bay despite temptations for military adventurism. Although there has never been real peace in South Asia, at least there has been no war since 1971.
> 
> Ignoring its security perspective, Pakistan`s western `friends` refused to admit it to their exclusive nuclear club, though expediency made them ignore its `crime` when it suited their purpose. But driven by identical geo-strategic interests in their respective regions and seeing Pakistan as an obstacle to their designs, Israel and India missed no opportunity to malign or subvert Pakistan`s programme.
> 
> Due to its defiance of Indian diktat, Pakistan is for India an obstruction in its quest for domination of South Asia and the Indian Ocean region. Israel`s apprehension of Pakistan`s military prowess is rooted in the strength Pakistan indirectly provides to Arab states with whom Israel has remained in a state of conflict. Conscious that several Arab states look up to Pakistan for military support in the event of threat to their security from Israel, it is unsettling for Israel to see a nuclear armed Pakistan.
> 
> *Israel can also not overlook the fact that Pakistan`s military is a match to its own. The PAF pilots surprised Israeli Air Force, when flying mostly Russian aircraft they shot down several relatively superior Israeli aircraft in air combat in the 1973 Arab-Israel war, shattering the invincibility myth of Israeli pilots who believed themselves to be too superior in skill and technology. The Pakistanis happened to be assigned to Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi air forces on training missions when the war broke out and, unknown to the Israelis then, they incognito undertook combat missions.*
> 
> *After successfully destroying Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, Israelis planned a similar attack on Pakistan`s nuclear facilities at Kahuta in collusion with India in the 1980s. Using satellite pictures and intelligence information, Israel reportedly built a full-scale mock-up of Kahuta facility in the Negev Desert where pilots of F-16 and F-15 squadrons practised mock attacks. *
> 
> *According to `The Asian Age`, journalists Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark stated in their book `Deception Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy`, that Israeli Air Force was to launch an air attack on Kahuta in mid-1980s from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat (India). The book claims that in March 1984, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed off (on) the Israeli-led operation bringing India, Pakistan and Israel to within a hair`s breadth of a nuclear conflagration.*
> 
> *Another report claims that Israel also planned an air strike directly out of Israel. After midway and midair refueling, Israeli warplanes planned to shoot down a commercial airline`s flight over Indian Ocean that flew into Islamabad early morning, fly in a tight formation to appear as one large aircraft on radar screens preventing detection, use the drowned airliner`s call sign to enter Islamabad`s air space, knock out Kahuta and fly out to Jammu to refuel and exit. *
> 
> *According to reliable reports in mid-1980s this mission was actually launched one night. But the Israelis were in for a big surprise. They discovered that Pakistan Air Force had already sounded an alert and had taken to the skies in anticipation of this attack. The mission had to be hurriedly aborted. *
> 
> *Pakistan reminded the Israelis that Pakistan was no Iraq and that PAF was no Iraqi Air Force. Pakistan is reported to have conveyed that an attack on Kahuta would force Pakistan to lay waste to Dimona, Israel`s nuclear reactor in the Negev Desert. India was also warned that Islamabad would attack Trombay if Kahuta facilities were hit.*
> 
> *The above quoted book claims that Prime Minister Indira Gandhi eventually aborted the operation despite protests from military planners in New Delhi and Jerusalem. *
> 
> *McNair`s paper #41 published by USAF Air University (India Thwarts Israeli Destruction of Pakistans Islamic Bomb) also confirmed this plan. It said, Israeli interest in destroying Pakistan`s Kahuta reactor to scuttle the Islamic bomb was blocked by Indias refusal to grant landing and refueling rights to Israeli warplanes in 1982. Clearly India wanted to see Kahuta gone but did not want to face retaliation at the hands of the PAF. Israel, on its part wanted this to be a joint Indo-Israeli strike to avoid being solely held responsible. *
> 
> *The Reagan administration also hesitated to support the plan because Pakistan`s distraction at that juncture would have hurt American interests in Afghanistan, when Pakistan was steering the Afghan resistance against the Soviets. *
> 
> *Although plans to hit Kahuta were shelved, the diatribe against Pakistan`s nuclear programme continued unabated. Israel used its control over the American political establishment and western media to create hysteria. India worked extensively to promote paranoia, branding Pakistan`s programme as unsafe, insecure and a threat to peace. The fact is otherwise. It is technically sounder, safer and more secure than that of India and has ensured absence of war in the region.*
> 
> The US invasion of Afghanistan provided another opening for Indo-Israeli nexus to target Pakistan`s strategic assets. This time the strategy was to present Pakistan as an unstable state, incapable of defending itself against religious extremist insurgents, creating the spectre of Islamabad and its nuclear assets falling in their hands. Suggestions are being floated that Pakistan being at risk of succumbing to extremists, its nuclear assets should be disabled, seized or forcibly taken out by the US. Alternatively, an international agency should take them over for safe keeping.
> 
> Pakistan has determinedly thwarted the terrorist threat and foiled this grand conspiracy. Pakistan has made it clear that it would act decisively against any attempt by any quarter to harm its nuclear assets. But if the game is taken to the next level, the consequences would be disastrous for the region.
> 
> The Indo-Israeli nexus is losing initiative. But as long as the American umbrella is available Afghanistan will remain a playground for mischief mongers. It is now up to the US to walk its talk and prove its claim that it wants to see a secure and stable Pakistan. It must pull the plug on conspiracies to destabilize Pakistan.
> 
> 
> How safe are Pakistan`s nuclear assets | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM




Why must you continue to swallow such fairy-tales?



MadDog said:


> Absolute non sense, this article has been circulated through out various blogs, we Pakistanis love to believe in conspiracy theories. Israel has nothing to with Pakistan, last time any Israeli leader mentioned Pakistan it was *Shimon Peres who prayed for Musharaf*. Infact, *in 2010 Israelis offered Pakistan to sell their guided munitions for PAF for war on terror*, an offer which was rejected by PAF. This was stated by Pakistan Air chief in a speech. Recently *Pakistan Airforce also bought aircraft refueling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey.*
> 
> *I am still wondering how senior and respected members on this forum like "WindJammer" are agreeing with this delusional article.*



@MadDog I am still wondering how long some of your senior and respected members will continue to revel in the use of these two adjectives. He has done enough damage already.



Stealth said:


> Can somebody (especially Indian Military or Govt official) explain this **** why not Indian AF did Surgical strike after 26/11!



It was never on the cards. It is a figment of the Pakistani romance with Pakistan that the redoubtable PAF forestalled any surgical strikes. There were never plans for any surgical strikes.



Last Hope said:


> Pakistan's Ambassador to the US clearly mentioned, addressing to the UN, that Pakistan would lay waste to India's nuclear facilities and Israel's Nuclear facilities in Negev desert. After this, India backed out hence the attack never took place.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> This article talks about the initial plan to attack Kahuta in 1980s, but failed to point at even stronger attack in 1998. It was way stronger and large on scale, with India again joining hands. All PAF fighters were in air, Mirage, F-7P, J-6 and F-16s. Every Squadron and every Air base was active 24/7 since the intelligence reports from ISI and intercepts from PAF Air Defence systems of unusual aircraft movement across border with confirmed sighting of atleast one F-16.
> 
> The C-130s that were to transport the parts and other goods related to the project were always escorted by 4 F-16s throughout journey and other areas being controlled by CAPs. There were 'secret' instructions issued to the pilots of those 4 F-16s, that if the C-130 makes any unusual move, you are cleared to shoot it down. There is information available on deployment of AAA units, SAM units, CAP and ADA Squadrons and the number of sorties flown with everything you need to know to get idea of the hustle.



And what were the IrAF and the IAF supposed to be doing during this derring-do? Practising their seamanship?

Regarding the evidence, nobody has any doubt that Pakistan pressed the panic button, several times, during the 80s and the 90s. There is surely a huge body of evidence on that front. However, there is not a shred of evidence about any conspiracy, then or later, between India and Israel. 

Just the kind of thing that testosterone-rich freshers would come out with. Not surprising that it is therefore part of the fanzone lore.



S_O_C_O_M said:


> for stupid people who claim conspiracy theories to suit their infeority complex.
> 
> </title><meta name="CreatedBy" content="WP Internet Publisher 6.1"></head><body><title>McNair Paper 41, Radical Responses to Radical Regimes: Evaluating Preemptive Counter-Proliferation, May 1995



All this paper said was that India refused to help any such effort.

The rest is a fairy tale.


----------



## punit

PAF is quite excellent and efficient in stopping imaginary attacks on Pakistan ! but when a real drone arrives .. its tail starts wagging !

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## Joe Shearer

SamranAli said:


> Dont live in state of denial.



And that was the detailed explanation. Reads just as weird today as it did then.



The Deterrent said:


> I read somewhere that the F-16 was our own, spotted in Baluchistan, and mistaken to be an Israeli one because of some issues with identification.
> But the event was negatively exaggerated I guess.



Most likely explanation. But obviously not one to satisfy the Zaid Hamids and the Windjammers.



Last Hope said:


> Some sources say that sometime before the explosion, F-16(s) was spotted and it was thought that Israeli F-16 made it past PAF defences and have arrived to do the job. I personally don't believe this to be true, neither can confirm it.
> 
> But there were Israeli F-16s operating from India, and the time of the explosion, there was atleast one F-16 which was flying near the border for data capturing, according to PAF Air Defence radars.



Nobody that I know, and I know pretty senior people, ever mentioned any foreign war plane being allowed to operate in Indian airspace. Those who are aware of the implications might remember that the post-26/11 permission given to American planes to refuel in India caused a muted sensation in India.



Last Hope said:


> This is Kahuta, where the Kahuta Research Laboratories are based.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were the first Nuclear research labs, and were the target from Indo-Israel attack in 1980s.



The ones that never happened? The ones that only the defender knew about?


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## war&peace

KS said:


> Ok let alone Indian nuclear facilities. But Israeli Negev facility. Seriously ? Did PAF have the capability to carry out such a strike *6000 kms* away without refuellers at that time ?


Which point of India or Israel is 6000 km away from Pakistan closest border.....Do you know you know the damn concept of a map...Like Google maps etc? p
Furthermore, did they even tell how they will do it...Did he mention there will be direct flight of F-16s from Pakistan to Israel Dymona plant?. We have friendly nations and actually PAF had been operating from airbases just a stone throw away from Israel in 1970-80s


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## Drashid

Beny Karachun said:


> What is your source, Facebook?



I did some digging, turns out Pakistan actually did deter Israel from launching a strike.


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## DavidSling

Drashid said:


> I did some digging, turns out Pakistan actually did deter Israel from launching a strike.


Oh, you asked the head of the mossad or the Israeli PM ?
Stop thinking that u can reveal secret information in the web

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## Drashid

DavidSling said:


> Oh, you asked the head of the mossad or the Israeli PM ?
> Stop thinking that u can reveal secret information in the web



It isn't 100% factual (many Pakistani's exaggerate the claim), but the overall claim is factual. You can't honestly believe Israel wouldn't try and handle the only nuclear Muslim state?


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## DavidSling

Drashid said:


> It isn't 100% factual (many Pakistani's exaggerate the claim), but the overall claim is factual. You can't honestly believe Israel wouldn't try and handle the only nuclear Muslim state?


Fact is there's no fact, u're guessing.
Unless some real documentary will get release, it's all speculations


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## Blue Marlin

Joe Shearer said:


> Why must you continue to swallow such fairy-tales?
> 
> 
> 
> @MadDog I am still wondering how long some of your senior and respected members will continue to revel in the use of these two adjectives. He has done enough damage already.
> 
> 
> 
> It was never on the cards. It is a figment of the Pakistani romance with Pakistan that the redoubtable PAF forestalled any surgical strikes. There were never plans for any surgical strikes.
> 
> 
> 
> And what were the IrAF and the IAF supposed to be doing during this derring-do? Practising their seamanship?
> 
> Regarding the evidence, nobody has any doubt that Pakistan pressed the panic button, several times, during the 80s and the 90s. There is surely a huge body of evidence on that front. However, there is not a shred of evidence about any conspiracy, then or later, between India and Israel.
> 
> Just the kind of thing that testosterone-rich freshers would come out with. Not surprising that it is therefore part of the fanzone lore.
> 
> 
> 
> All this paper said was that India refused to help any such effort.
> 
> The rest is a fairy tale.


what are you doing ?
why are you opening up a thread 2 years old ?
that israeli dude has been opening old thread for a while. dont respond


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## Drashid

DavidSling said:


> Fact is there's no fact, u're guessing.
> Unless some real documentary will get release, it's all speculations



I guess.


----------



## somebozo

This scenario often project as some kind of war victor is only a fictitious hypothesis because..


Israel has no beef with Pakistan, no borders and no immediate threat.
Israel has no such long range capability to mount a strike.
Any such strike needs involvement of India as an operation base - a blatant declaration of war by India..against which Pakistan is sure to retaliate. 
If Israel has the political will and diplomatic support to mount such an attack then Pakistan is extremely outdated to prevent such an attack..


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## WaLeEdK2

In 1979, the Indian intelligence agency intercepted an American document according to which Pakistan intended to conduct a nuclear test very soon. The intelligence agencies of Israel that were monitoring the Pakistanis knew that they were working on a nuclear bomb, but the information betrayed the fast progress made by that country. In view of the new information, Israel planned an attack against the nuclear facility in Kahuta, used by Dr. Khan. The attack was cancelled owing to US pressure, according to the book "Deception: Pakistan, the United States, and the Secret Trade in Nuclear Weapons" by Adrian Levy & Catherine Scott-Clark. The Reagan administration feared that the attack would undermine American interests in Afghanistan, which Pakistan supported vis-à-vis the Russians. According to various reports, Israel even went as far as building a complete model of the Pakistani nuclear facility in the Negev, for the purpose of training the strike mission pilots. According to the book, the attack was to be staged in March 1984 from the Jamnagar Indian Air Force base in Gujarat. Another source claiming that Israel had planned an attack against the Pakistani nuclear facility is the fas.org website.

http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/pakistan-–-quiet-nuclear-threat

I don't know if this would suffice. But it is an israeli source.

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## DavidSling

WaLeEdK2 said:


> In 1979, the Indian intelligence agency intercepted an American document according to which Pakistan intended to conduct a nuclear test very soon. The intelligence agencies of Israel that were monitoring the Pakistanis knew that they were working on a nuclear bomb, but the information betrayed the fast progress made by that country. In view of the new information, Israel planned an attack against the nuclear facility in Kahuta, used by Dr. Khan. The attack was cancelled owing to US pressure, according to the book "Deception: Pakistan, the United States, and the Secret Trade in Nuclear Weapons" by Adrian Levy & Catherine Scott-Clark. The Reagan administration feared that the attack would undermine American interests in Afghanistan, which Pakistan supported vis-à-vis the Russians. According to various reports, Israel even went as far as building a complete model of the Pakistani nuclear facility in the Negev, for the purpose of training the strike mission pilots. According to the book, the attack was to be staged in March 1984 from the Jamnagar Indian Air Force base in Gujarat. Another source claiming that Israel had planned an attack against the Pakistani nuclear facility is the fas.org website.
> 
> http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/pakistan-–-quiet-nuclear-threat
> 
> I don't know if this would suffice. But it is an israeli source.


The requested page "/en/content/pakistan-%20-quiet-nuclear-threat" could not be found.
Anyways, Like I said before, untill there's some REAL document and not speculation, this whole thread is based on a guess


----------



## WaLeEdK2

somebozo said:


> This scenario often project as some kind of war victor is only a fictitious hypothesis because..
> 
> 
> Israel has no beef with Pakistan, no borders and no immediate threat.
> Israel has no such long range capability to mount a strike.
> Any such strike needs involvement of India as an operation base - a blatant declaration of war by India..against which Pakistan is sure to retaliate.
> If Israel has the political will and diplomatic support to mount such an attack then Pakistan is extremely outdated to prevent such an attack..



1) overtly no but covertly things could be different 

2)that's why they wanted to use India as a base.

3)that goes without saying. India was hesitant and did not want to carry out these attacks.

4)back then Israel had the will to carry out the attack. Pakistan had f-16s back then and would've immediately retaliated. It was a one way mission and PAF f-16 pilots were told that if the Israelis bomb kuhata then they would need volunteers to attack domina on this one way mission (certain death). It was all or nothing for Pak back then.


----------



## WaLeEdK2

DavidSling said:


> The requested page "/en/content/pakistan-%20-quiet-nuclear-threat" could not be found.
> Anyways, Like I said before, untill there's some REAL document and not speculation, this whole thread is based on a guess



Do you know how hard it would be to find real documents? Can you show me the documents for operation opera?


----------



## PDF

punit said:


> PAF is quite excellent and efficient in stopping imaginary attacks on Pakistan !


Pakistani officials have complained that in the past requests for fresh weapons systems from the U.S. have been "fiercely resisted by Indian and Israeli lobbyists".
In the 1980s, Israel is said to have planned, with or without Indian assistance, a possible attack on Pakistan's bomb capacity. After successfully destroying Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, Israel allegedly planned a similar attack on Pakistan’s nuclear facilities at Kahuta in collusion with India in the 1980s. Using satellite pictures and intelligence information, Israel reportedly built a full-scale mock-up of Kahuta facility in the Negev Desert where pilots of F-16 and F-15 squadrons practiced mock attacks.

According to ‘The Asian Age’, journalists Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark stated in their book ‘Deception: Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy’, that Israeli Air Force was to launch an air attack on Kahuta in mid-1980s from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat, India. The book claims that “in March 1984, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed off (on) the Israeli-led operation bringing India, Pakistan and Israel to within a hair’s breadth of a nuclear conflagration”.

McNair’s paper #41 published by USAF Air University (India Thwarts Israeli Destruction of Pakistan's "Islamic Bomb") also confirmed this plan. It said, “Israeli interest in destroying Pakistan’s Kahuta reactor to scuttle the "Islamic bomb" was blocked by India's refusal to grant landing and refuelling rights to Israeli warplanes in 1982.” This had been India's policy for all foreign military planes/ships. Israel, on its part wanted this to be a joint Indian-Israeli strike to avoid being solely held responsible.

[Deception: Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy, Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark]
[McNair’s paper #41 published by USAF University]
http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...t-bombed-Pakistans-Kahuta-Nuclear-Reactor-308
http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...litary-attack-on-a-pakistani-nuclear-reactor/
https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&...038102&usg=AFQjCNGDAe6We82aVCNTjQ-o47q4AKFUaA


Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


http://fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/41ind.html
https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=57&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjE26ClutrNAhXDXhQKHdHjDU04MhAWCDkwBg&url=http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/08spec.htm&usg=AFQjCNF61XZjzAHUl0mrA1bgW8zxTPJnMQ
http://www.cambridgeforecast.org/MIDDLEEAST/KAHUTA.html
etc.


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## DavidSling

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Do you know how hard it would be to find real documents? Can you show me the documents for operation opera?






Contains live footage.
Besides, this confirmed to have TAKEN action.
Proving that something "would've" happened and didn't, is alot harder without official documentary


----------



## WaLeEdK2

M.Musa said:


> Pakistani officials have complained that in the past requests for fresh weapons systems from the U.S. have been "fiercely resisted by Indian and Israeli lobbyists".
> In the 1980s, Israel is said to have planned, with or without Indian assistance, a possible attack on Pakistan's bomb capacity. After successfully destroying Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, Israel allegedly planned a similar attack on Pakistan’s nuclear facilities at Kahuta in collusion with India in the 1980s. Using satellite pictures and intelligence information, Israel reportedly built a full-scale mock-up of Kahuta facility in the Negev Desert where pilots of F-16 and F-15 squadrons practiced mock attacks.
> 
> According to ‘The Asian Age’, journalists Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark stated in their book ‘Deception: Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy’, that Israeli Air Force was to launch an air attack on Kahuta in mid-1980s from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat, India. The book claims that “in March 1984, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed off (on) the Israeli-led operation bringing India, Pakistan and Israel to within a hair’s breadth of a nuclear conflagration”.
> 
> McNair’s paper #41 published by USAF Air University (India Thwarts Israeli Destruction of Pakistan's "Islamic Bomb") also confirmed this plan. It said, “Israeli interest in destroying Pakistan’s Kahuta reactor to scuttle the "Islamic bomb" was blocked by India's refusal to grant landing and refuelling rights to Israeli warplanes in 1982.” This had been India's policy for all foreign military planes/ships. Israel, on its part wanted this to be a joint Indian-Israeli strike to avoid being solely held responsible.
> 
> [Deception: Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy, Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark]
> [McNair’s paper #41 published by USAF University]
> http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...t-bombed-Pakistans-Kahuta-Nuclear-Reactor-308
> http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...litary-attack-on-a-pakistani-nuclear-reactor/
> http://fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/41ind.html
> https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&...ec.htm&usg=AFQjCNF61XZjzAHUl0mrA1bgW8zxTPJnMQ
> http://www.cambridgeforecast.org/MIDDLEEAST/KAHUTA.html
> etc.



It wouldn't be a surprise if the Israelis were planning to do so. They didn't want any Muslim country from obtaining N-power. Why are Israeli in such denial about this? It's not like the attack happened and they failed..


----------



## WaLeEdK2

DavidSling said:


> Contains live footage.
> Besides, this confirmed to have TAKEN action.
> Proving that something "would've" happened and didn't, is alot harder without official documentary



Again there is a documentary because it happened. I've asked for documents that show the planning. If they did not carry out the attack then how do we know they were planning this?


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## PDF

WaLeEdK2 said:


> It wouldn't be a surprise if the Israelis were planning to do so. They didn't want any Muslim country from obtaining N-power. Why are Israeli in such denial about this? It's not like the attack happened and they failed..


Their are a lot of consequences in accepting that such action was planned.
They have officially also not stated themselves a nuclear power(Militarily) because of the consequences...


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## DavidSling

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Again there is a documentary because it happened. I've asked for documents that show the planning. If they did not carry out the attack then how do we know they were planning this?


That's right, and as I stated above, that's alot harder to prove something that was planned and didn't occur, according to you, without official document/


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## WaLeEdK2

DavidSling said:


> That's right, and as I stated above, that's alot harder to prove something that was planned and didn't occur, according to you, without official document/



Then I see no reason to refute the claim of the Israelis at least planning an attack. It is very much plausible. I don't think the the Israeli government or military has given a statement on it as well, they've kept quite. To many, that is very clear indication that there were plans.

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## DavidSling

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Then I see no reason to refute the claim of the Israelis at least planning an attack. It is very much plausible. I don't the the Israeli government or military has given a statement on it as well, they've kept quite. To many, that is very clear indication that there were plans.


So if they wouldn't plan the attack, they would give a statement?no sense.
IT IS A POSSIBILITY, one of many, Im afraid.


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## WaLeEdK2

DavidSling said:


> So if they wouldn't plan the attack, they would give a statement?no sense.
> IT IS A POSSIBILITY, one of many, Im afraid.



If they didn't plan an attack we wouldn't be discussing this right now. The Israeli military knows that these allegations are going around and if they didn't plan an attack then imo they would have immediately denied any action on it.


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## DavidSling

WaLeEdK2 said:


> If they didn't plan an attack we wouldn't be discussing this right now.


Yes you would've..., like egypt said that Israeli mossad sharks killed egyptians


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## somebozo

WaLeEdK2 said:


> 4)back then Israel had the will to carry out the attack. Pakistan had f-16s back then and would've immediately retaliated. It was a one way mission and PAF f-16 pilots were told that if the Israelis bomb kuhata then they would need volunteers to attack domina on this one way mission (certain death). It was all or nothing for Pak back then.



Even though Pakistan had F16..they were just vintage pride as show gear..the Israelis had very advance air defense system plus air force jets..and Pakistani attack would have been neutralized long before it entered Israeli air space..actually far better than F16 in this scenario would be large numbers of F7PG on full throttle taking off from a friendly country located near Israel as they are a mach 2.3 capable aircraft and have better chances of evading air defense system or chasing aircraft.

But wether the Israeli attack Pakistan or vise versa one cannot escape the geographical facts..

There is no direct air corridor between Pakistan and Israel and the air route would transverse several countries which must accord military mission over flight rights to IAF and PAF before any mission can be carried forward.

The total line of sight distance between Karachi and Tel Aviv is 3245 KMS and the maximum ferry range of different air crafts with maximum drop tanks is

F7 = 2,000km
F16 = 4,220 km
F-15 Eagle = 5552.237








Pakistan does not have F15 and Pakistan F16 at that time were also range limited...we only started getting drop tanks for F16 recently...Therefore hypothetically speaking...even if Indian begged Israel to use its soil..such an attack was infinite impossibility without tactical approval and support of USA...and USA would not need Israeli action to take out Pakistani reactors. ...



WaLeEdK2 said:


> If they didn't plan an attack we wouldn't be discussing this right now. The Israeli military knows that these allegations are going around and if they didn't plan an attack then imo they would have immediately denied any action on it.



The Pakistani culture of stirring up senseless conspiracy theories mean we can discuss anything...the retards of Pakistani millitary trumpeted such stories to look like hero as is the case with Pakistani army always but they made a crucial mistake in their time line...all such attacks are alleged to be planned during 1980's...the time when Pakistan and Israel were actually allies in war against the Soviets in Afghanistan...


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## WaLeEdK2

somebozo said:


> Even though Pakistan had F16..they were just vintage pride as show gear..the Israelis had very advance air defense system plus air force jets..and Pakistani attack would have been neutralized long before it entered Israeli air space..actually far better than F16 in this scenario would be large numbers of F7PG on full throttle taking off from a friendly country located near Israel as they are a mach 2.3 capable aircraft and have better chances of evading air defense system or chasing aircraft.
> 
> But wether the Israeli attack Pakistan or vise versa one cannot escape the geographical facts..
> 
> There is no direct air corridor between Pakistan and Israel and the air route would transverse several countries which must accord military mission over flight rights to IAF and PAF before any mission can be carried forward.
> 
> The total line of sight distance between Karachi and Tel Aviv is 3245 KMS and the maximum ferry range of different air crafts with maximum drop tanks is
> 
> F7 = 2,000km
> F16 = 4,220 km
> F-15 Eagle = 5552.237
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan does not have F15 and Pakistan F16 at that time were also range limited...we only started getting drop tanks for F16 recently...Therefore hypothetically speaking...even if Indian begged Israel to use its soil..such an attack was infinite impossibility without tactical approval and support of USA...and USA would not need Israeli action to take out Pakistani reactors. ...



That's my point. Pakistani f-16s were the oldest version. They could not go there and back. That's why f-16 pilots were asked who would volunteer to attack domina and basically never return. I don't think the US was really playing close attention since the USSR was their main concern at the time in Afghanistan.


----------



## DJ_Viper

DavidSling said:


> Oh, you asked the head of the mossad or the Israeli PM ?
> Stop thinking that u can reveal secret information in the web



Without actually going into any specifics, he's actually right. And from what I recall, this took place twice, not once. After the second time, there was a secret agreement and understanding between both the Israelis and Pakistan that none of the nations pose a threat to the other and won't try to damage each other. IMO, both Israel and Pakistan should have diplomatic ties and have strong relationships, starting from business and visas for people to travel and see the other side.

In fact, multiple Israeli PMs in their previous times had offered military cooperation to Pakistan should the bilateral relationships could be formed (like Turkey and Israel). I think that should happen. The world can use more friendships than hate and division that has spread like a Cancer in recent decades.


----------



## SQ8

WaLeEdK2 said:


> That's my point. Pakistani f-16s were the oldest version. They could not go there and back. That's why f-16 pilots were asked who would volunteer to attack domina and basically never return. I don't think the US was really playing close attention since the USSR was their main concern at the time in Afghanistan.


The attack was not going to be done with the F-16. There was a plan to stage Mirages in a friendly country that was also hostile to Israel, but it was a one way trip.


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## WaLeEdK2

Oscar said:


> The attack was not going to be done with the F-16. There was a plan to stage Mirages in a friendly country that was also hostile to Israel, but it was a one way trip.



Would that country have been Jordan? Why not station f-16s there instead of mirages?


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## aamirzs

Israel is currently within range of Pakistani missiles and nukes and vice versa. Israel and Pakistan has no reason to fight with each other.


----------



## WaLeEdK2

DJ_Viper said:


> Without actually going into any specifics, he's actually right. And from what I recall, this took place twice, not once. After the second time, there was a secret agreement and understanding between both the Israelis and Pakistan that none of the nations pose a threat to the other and won't try to damage each other. IMO, both Israel and Pakistan should have diplomatic ties and have strong relationships, starting from business and visas for people to travel and see the other side.
> 
> In fact, multiple Israeli PMs in their previous times had offered military cooperation to Pakistan should the bilateral relationships could be formed (like Turkey and Israel). I think that should happen. The world can use more friendships than hate and division that has spread like a Cancer in recent decades.



I believe the Israelis saw Pakistan as potential military partners due to the performance of PAF pilots in the Arab-Israeli wars.


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## nomi007

if israel will attack
it will be his last day on earth


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## DavidSling

nomi007 said:


> if israel will attack
> it will be his last day on earth


And Pakistan will be immune right?
Let's not talk about wars no one can win alright?


----------



## PDF

DJ_Viper said:


> The world can use more friendships than hate and division that has spread like a Cancer in recent decades.


We can with Israel but tell them do solve the Palestinian problem... The world will certainly live peacefully after that problem is solved...


----------



## Stephen Cohen

In the Eighties Pakistan was an US ally 

There is NO way we could have attacked Pakistan 

Secondly entire OIC would have have been UP against India


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## somebozo

WaLeEdK2 said:


> That's my point. Pakistani f-16s were the oldest version. They could not go there and back. That's why f-16 pilots were asked who would volunteer to attack domina and basically never return. I don't think the US was really playing close attention since the USSR was their main concern at the time in Afghanistan.



How will you attack dimona?? when you are even unable to penetrate air space?? and how will you trespass half a dozen countries in the path?? Being an arm chair general is very different than actual military planning...forget about one way mission..it was a planned suicide in the air..

Pakistan had taken Israel into confidence about its Nuclear program back in 1993 during the time of Benazir government. Pakistan not only built the confidence it also acted as a double agent in spying against Libiyan and Iranian nuclear ambitions and offered creditable intelligence to Israeli Mossad.. 

All such plans of supposed Israeli attack on Kahuta emerged from speculation of some western analyst and picked up by mainstream Pakistani media for chest thumping rights...there are numerous critical errors in these reports if one dissects them with careful attention to details..We have made our armed institution hero on fighting such imaginary threats while they are of no use in combating actual threats...


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## DavidSling

M.Musa said:


> We can with Israel but tell them do solve the Palestinian problem... The world will certainly live peacefully after that problem is solved...


u're naive


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## somebozo

M.Musa said:


> We can with Israel but tell them do solve the Palestinian problem... The world will certainly live peacefully after that problem is solved...



If you have a problem with your wife do you ask your neighbor to come and solve it??
And beside what actual support we are getting from the arabs on Kashmir ?? beside useless OIC resolutions?


----------



## SQ8

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Would that country have been Jordan? Why not station f-16s there instead of mirages?


The threat first emerged from Israel in early 80's, and the Mirages were the more mature strike platform.


----------



## SQ8

somebozo said:


> If you have a problem with your wife do you ask your neighbor to come and solve it??
> And beside what actual support we are getting from the arabs on Kashmir ?? beside useless OIC resolutions?


Actually you go to counselling.


----------



## DJ_Viper

M.Musa said:


> We can with Israel but tell them do solve the Palestinian problem... The world will certainly live peacefully after that problem is solved...



I think its time you put your country first. What has the Palestinian issue given to your country since the creation of your country? Nothing!! While the Saudis, Turks, and majority of other Muslim countries have enjoyed working with the Israelis. Have you solved the Kashmir problem in the past 70 years, even with so many wars and conflicts? Not sure when Pakistanis will learn that the diplomatic relations is the only way to live and get things accomplished in today's globe.

The only fact relevant here is that if there were more Muslim countries friends with Israel, you could use the diplomatic ties to create some solution to this. Israel is a huge military power and it doesn't care about one or ten countries, like Pakistan doesn't care about even the US when it comes to their own national interests. So, the ONLY pressure you use can use, is a pressure through peaceful negotiations and through using diplomatic relations.


----------



## somebozo

Oscar said:


> The attack was not going to be done with the F-16. There was a plan to stage Mirages in a friendly country that was also hostile to Israel, but it was a one way trip.



Well such a country could only be Iraq and Syria and both of them were unfriendly towards Pakistan...so again flop logic..



WaLeEdK2 said:


> Would that country have been Jordan? Why not station f-16s there instead of mirages?



No Jordan has friendly releations with Israel...


----------



## aamirzs




----------



## DavidSling

DJ_Viper said:


> I think its time you put your country first. What has the Palestinian issue given to your country since the creation of your country? Nothing!! While the Saudis, Turks, and majority of other Muslim countries have enjoyed working with the Israelis. Have you solved the Kashmir problem in the past 70 years, even with so many wars and conflicts? Not sure when Pakistanis will learn that the diplomatic relations is the only way to live and get things accomplished in today's globe.
> 
> The only fact relevant here is that if there were more Muslim countries friends with Israel, you could use the diplomatic ties to create some solution to this. Israel is a huge military power and it doesn't care about one or ten countries, like Pakistan doesn't care about even the US when it comes to their own national interests. So, the ONLY pressure you use can use, is a pressure through peaceful negotiations and through using diplomatic relations.


Some Pakistanies are complaining about Israelies selling weapons to India, but yet they don't even acknowledge israel's existence.
What would they expect?

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## aamirzs

Like I said, 
Israel is currently within range of Pakistani missiles and nukes and vice versa. Israel and Pakistan has no reason to fight with each other.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/how-paf-...s-nuclear-assets.219681/page-26#ixzz4DT9sVYzY


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## DavidSling

aamirzs said:


>


Israel was already nuclear power at 80's.
Attackin it's nuclear plant would be a suicide attack by Pakistanies.


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## WaLeEdK2

somebozo said:


> How will you attack dimona?? when you are even unable to penetrate air space?? and how will you trespass half a dozen countries in the path?? Being an arm chair general is very different than actual military planning...forget about one way mission..it was a planned suicide in the air..
> 
> Pakistan had taken Israel into confidence about its Nuclear program back in 1993 during the time of Benazir government. Pakistan not only built the confidence it also acted as a double agent in spying against Libiyan and Iranian nuclear ambitions and offered creditable intelligence to Israeli Mossad..
> 
> All such plans of supposed Israeli attack on Kahuta emerged from speculation of some western analyst and picked up by mainstream Pakistani media for chest thumping rights...there are numerous critical errors in these reports if one dissects them with careful attention to details..We have made our armed institution hero on fighting such imaginary threats while they are of no use in combating actual threats...



The same way the Israelis attracted Iraqs N-power plant. They want over hostile territory. Air defence wasn't that great back then so it was of no worry for Israels superior tech. S.arabia was not so hostile to Israel so they could've taken that route to India.


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## SQ8

somebozo said:


> Well such a country could only be Iraq and Syria and both of them were *unfriendly towards Pakistan*...so again flop logic..
> No Jordan has friendly releations with Israel...



What timeframe was this?


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## DJ_Viper

Stephen Cohen said:


> The Eighties was the GOLDEN period in US Pakistan relationship
> 
> Because of the Afghan war
> 
> US knew about Pakistan's Nuclear program but turned a Blind eye
> 
> Only after Soviet withdrawl did US put sanctions on Pakistan--Pressler Amendment
> 
> But still US was closer to Pakistan than India TILL the Kargil war
> 
> It was in 1999 Kargil war that US supported India for the first time



And your point is..? Care to read the topic of the thread before writing irrelevant content please? Each of the points above, should be discussed in their own respective thread please. Let's not go off topic and derail the thread. Thanks


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## Stephen Cohen

DJ_Viper said:


> And your point is..? Care to read the topic of the thread before writing irrelevant content please? Each of the points above, should be discussed in their own respective thread please. Let's not go off topic and derail the thread. Thanks



My point is that India NEVER considered attacking Pakistani Nuclear facilities

The Israeli proposal was REJECTED immediately by India

Pakistan was a US ally and we were NOT foolish to attack it

If some one could attack Pakistan in the Eighties ; it was Soviet Union 

But they were only interested in Afghanistan

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## aamirzs

DavidSling said:


> Israel was already nuclear power at 80's.
> Attackin it's nuclear plant would be a suicide attack by Pakistanies.



Pakistan began development of nuclear weapons in 1972 and Pakistan developing the capability to detonate a nuclear bomb by the end of 1984.


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## PDF

somebozo said:


> If you have a problem with your wife do you ask your neighbor to come and solve it??
> And beside what actual support we are getting from the arabs on Kashmir ?? beside useless OIC resolutions?


As a Muslim, It is my responsibility to help my fellow brothers.
https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-mo...surah-hujurat-jafar-subhani/brotherhood-islam



DJ_Viper said:


> I think its time you put your country first. What has the Palestinian issue given to your country since the creation of your country? Nothing!! While the Saudis, Turks, and majority of other Muslim countries have enjoyed working with the Israelis.* Have you solved the Kashmir problem in the past 70 years, even with so many wars and conflicts? Not sure when Pakistanis will learn that the diplomatic relations is the only way to live and get things accomplished in today's globe.*
> 
> The only fact relevant here is that if there were more Muslim countries friends with Israel, you could use the diplomatic ties to create some solution to this. Israel is a huge military power and it doesn't care about one or ten countries, like Pakistan doesn't care about even the US when it comes to their own national interests. So, the ONLY pressure you use can use, is a pressure through peaceful negotiations and through using diplomatic relations.


So tell me how has our negotiations on Kashmir with India are going? The part of Kashmir we currently have was by armed struggle...FYI...

I am all to set diplomatic ties but doing it now will only weaken the position of Palestine which the UN and the superpower already do not care...
Pakistan will not abandon its support for Palestine or Kashmir...
You can have your own opinion but I think Pakistan Government knows to whom they should have relations and with whom they shouldn't. They will have relations when that seems okay by our FO...BTW Israel and Indian cooperation will not help you to create diplomatic relations with Pakistan.


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## DavidSling

aamirzs said:


> Pakistan began development of nuclear weapons in 1972


So?
Israel had active nuclear plant according to foreign reports in the 60's and had nuclear warheads by the six day war in 67.
still doesn't change the fact that it would've been a suicide attack by the Pakistanies.
So stop introduce B.S to this thread, there's enough of it

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## DJ_Viper

DavidSling said:


> Some Pakistanies are complaining about Israelies selling weapons to India, but yet they don't even acknowledge israel's existence. Why would they expect?



Yea, its funny with the Pakistanis. Sadly, when a nation hasn't seen a real civilian system work in the past 70 years, and just the military rule showing whatever they needed to show through controlled media, you'd have a nation that won't realize the potential for diplomatic relationships, and the potential to grow within themselves as a nation. Because they've gotten so used to the forceful and harsh military rule. While I say this, I would say, that the military of Pakistan has accomplished great achievements in the war on terror in the past 4 years or so. Which tells you everything works well in what they specialize in, i.e. military securing the country and civilians running the country and growing the economy.

Let's hope the current political system which has established a lot of credibility actually continues and soon, the entire country will start to turn democratic (recent poles showed 84% people wanted democracy in Pakistan a few weeks ago). With terrorism being eliminated, there should be more stability and prosperity inside Pakistan for an average person. Hopefully, they'll start to overcome their issues with Israel and other countries soon, and will actually focus on how to benefit from each other through business and trade.

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## somebozo

DavidSling said:


> Israel was already nuclear power at 80's.
> Attackin it's nuclear plant would be a suicide attack by Pakistanies.



Well dont you know as a nation, suicide it our national industry..we preach it everywhere...from school to military...dying in Jihad is the highest honour..no wonder we are so f/cked up mentally..that we do not cherish life...



Oscar said:


> What timeframe was this?



Bashar of Syria and Saddam of Iraq..both have been anti-Pakistan...read up history...You as a mod ought to know better...


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## DavidSling

DJ_Viper said:


> Yea, its funny with the Pakistanis. Sadly, when a nation hasn't seen a real civilian system work in the past 70 years, and just the military rule showing whatever they needed to show through controlled media, you'd have a nation that won't realize the potential for diplomatic relationships, and the potential to grow within themselves as a nation. Because they've gotten so used to the forceful and harsh military rule. While I say this, I would say, that the military of Pakistan has accomplished great achievements in the war on terror in the past 4 years or so. Which tells you everything works well in what they specialize in, i.e. military securing the country and civilians running the country and growing the economy.
> 
> Let's hope the current political system which has established a lot of credibility actually continues and soon, the entire country will start to turn democratic (recent poles showed 84% people wanted democracy in Pakistan a few weeks ago). With terrorism being eliminated, there should be more stability and prosperity inside Pakistan for an average person. Hopefully, they'll start to overcome their issues with Israel and other countries soon, and will actually focus on how to benefit from each other through business and trade.


I don't think Israel nor India is the biggest enemy of Pakistan.
The real enemy it faces is within,the sooner they'll figure it out, the better in my opinion

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## PDF

DavidSling said:


> u're naive


Whatever You say. I guess only Israel is correct on what it says while the whole world tells a different story.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countrie...-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

BTW, do you accept that Israel planned or wanted to attack Pakistan Nuclear Facilities? I bet you are still living in denial i.e. the answer will be no just like you disregard the truth in every matter.


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## aamirzs

DavidSling said:


> So?
> Israel had active nuclear plant according to foreign reports in the 60's and had nuclear warheads by the six day war in 67





DavidSling said:


> So?
> Israel had active nuclear plant according to foreign reports in the 60's and had nuclear warheads by the six day war in 67.
> still doesn't change the fact that it would've been a suicide attack by the Pakistanies.
> So stop introduce B.S to this thread, there's enough of it



And in this B.S you will not get out that easy either!


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## DavidSling

aamirzs said:


> And in this B.S you will not get out that easy either!


You can believe that Israel is none nuclear country for all I care.


M.Musa said:


> Whatever You say. I guess only Israel is correct on what it says while the whole world tells a different story.
> https://www.amnesty.org/en/countrie...-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
> 
> BTW, do you accept that Israel planned or wanted to attack Pakistan Nuclear Facilities? I bet you are still living in denial i.e. the answer will be no just like you disregard the truth in every matter.


Show me facts, and maybe I will. for now only guesses and speculations were thrown here.
And as for attack Israel after it has achieved it's nuclear warheads.
I don't think Pakistan would risk it, nor should they.
Any sane nation wouldn't


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## PDF

DavidSling said:


> I don't think Israel nor India is the biggest enemy of Pakistan.
> The real enemy it faces is within,the sooner they'll figure it out, the better in my opinion


Oh Israel isn't.... But officially India is...
Well The enemy within is supported by the enemies outside...TTP etc..



DavidSling said:


> Show me facts, and maybe I will. for now only guesses and speculations were thrown here.


Oh I wonder will you accept the facts no matter who authentic they might be? Someone who denies the obvious is not easy to be convinced...

Please answer the second part of #414...


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## DavidSling

M.Musa said:


> Oh Israel isn't.... But officially India is...
> Well The enemy within is supported by the enemies outside...TTP etc..


The enemy I was reffering to is the lack of utilizating your most valued resource, your population



M.Musa said:


> Oh Israel isn't.... But officially India is...
> Well The enemy within is supported by the enemies outside...TTP etc..
> 
> 
> Oh I wonder will you accept the facts no matter who authentic they might be? Someone who denies the obvious is not easy to be convinced...
> 
> Please answer the second part of #414...


But it does matter from where they came from, it has to be reliable


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## PDF

DavidSling said:


> The enemy I was reffering to is the lack of utilizating your most valued resource, your population
> 
> if you think that is the biggest enemy. You are wrong...Maybe we will know better who is our enemy than you? Wouldn't we?


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## somebozo

DavidSling said:


> I don't think Israel nor India is the biggest enemy of Pakistan.
> The real enemy it faces is within,the sooner they'll figure it out, the better in my opinion



You see imaginary threat perception can be lethal..and the case of Pakistan will be taught for decades in military academies as a country gone delusional on national scale...breeding its own death by raising suicide terror squads..these kids entered into madrasas were raised their entire life on a fine dose of Jihad, the chance of battle against evil hindo kafir India..and dying in this war for the highest rewards in paradise..but then like all fairly tales..the reality never materialized..and here you have sitting thousands of cadres...on high dose of jihad waiting for their pay day....eventually everyone gives up in frustration and goes crazy!


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## SQ8

somebozo said:


> Bashar of Syria and Saddam of Iraq..both have been anti-Pakistan...read up history...You as a mod ought to know better...


Please keep your smart alec remarks to yourself, bring proofs to your claims. I suggest you read up on history and look at deputations carried out within timeframes to these countries.


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## DJ_Viper

M.Musa said:


> So tell me how has our negotiations on Kashmir with India are going? The part of Kashmir we currently have was by armed struggle...FYI...



Are you sure you want me to tell you the truth? 99% of humans get pissed off when they hear the truth. The truth is, there were three times in each civilian government's previous tiny cycle, where this issue came close to a civil resolution (meaning without a war). And it was on equal terms as India wasn't as powerful as it is today. Now, the Pakistani military even knows the massive imbalance that exists between the two nations and its growing by every month and at a very fast race!

India, just last month signed more deals than the entire defense budget of Pakistan for an entire year. So you've lost that "equality" that was there 20 years ago. Now, more than likely, Kashmir will be settled on terms of "as-is" meaning the current boundaries will become permanent. Macho talk is all different, but simply put (militarily), Pakistan has no offensive means to "get Kashmir" anymore. Does that tell you where the Kashmir situation is? Reality is a bi**h and the sooner you wake up to it, the better it is.



> Pakistan will not abandon its support for Palestine or Kashmir...



What support..? Pakistani Civil and Military leaders are now constantly asking the US to help put a line in the sand as Pakistan needs to focus on her economy and it has no ability to even come close to a continued arms race in this region. You can't ever get offensive with $ 8-10 billion defense budget compared to a $ 50-75 billion defense budget with 3:1 odds in India's favor.

Similarly, what "support" for the Palestinians? What is it that Pakistan has done that was so great for the Palestinians beyond talking points? The best thing for the Palestinians is if like Turkey, Pakistan became Israel's friend and pursued her towards establishing a two state solution and helped in that process. In both scenarios above, only fools can think about anything but diplomatic option.

IMO, Pakistan has a huge talent base, and Israel can help in pushing that talent base to a better use through offering technology and other stuff. Remember, Israel is all about business and establishing ties with Muslim countries. And like Israel, Pakistan is also a nuke power in the Muslim world (and the only one). So two can join hands and do a lot of good for the world.



> You can have your own opinion but I think Pakistan Government knows to whom they should have relations and with whom they shouldn't.



I am glad you said that. When General Musharraff went to his one of the first mainstream tours to the US, who did he address? And spent about 80% of the time with? The American Jewish community and in his words "he was honored to address the "distinguished" American Jewish community" (I witnessed this statement). Now this was the Army Chief of Pakistan and the President......does it show where they were leaning like 10 years ago? Same thing I said above, towards establishing diplomatic relations with Israel. But each time someone tried, they somehow had to surrender to the hardliners inside Pakistan.

I hope I was able to clarify are few things for you. I say its time you take your country back from the hardliners and take her to where the potential for your country exists, way up the ladder from where it is today!!



DavidSling said:


> I don't think Israel nor India is the biggest enemy of Pakistan.
> The real enemy it faces is within,the sooner they'll figure it out, the better in my opinion



Absolutely agreed. Pakistan is a nuke power like India and Israel with plenty of "delivery systems" in place. So they need to get comfortable in their skin and realize no one wants a nuke conflict. Once the sense of security settles in, they, then, have to take a holistic look around and realize what have the past 65 years been? IMO, a total mess if you look at the human development, country's infrastructure (till 4 years ago, jobs, education, etc, etc).

Which then takes me back to my core point, focus on expanding the economy and strengthening the civilian system. When average Pakistanis (like average Indians, Israelis and Americans) have opportunities inside Pakistan, and the hard-line mentality you see in some on here or inside Pakistan dissipates, that's progress and it will take this country to places.

Joining hands (even for business and trade) with Israel will allow Pakistan to develop much faster. They don't have to do military cooperation if they aren't comfortable in the beginning, they can start with trade and business and see the results of joining hands. Through Pakistan, Israel can gain influence (Trade wise) to the Middle Eastern markets, and through Israel, Pakistan can work with the EU and the US much beyond where they can ever get to (compare to today's situation). Its a win win for the entire globe.

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## somebozo

Oscar said:


> Please keep your smart alec remarks to yourself, bring proofs to your claims. I suggest you read up on history and look at deputations carried out within timeframes to these countries.



Well i know PAF was flying missions out of Syria using Syrian airforce aircrafts..and downed two israeli jets..but things sour up fast as Pakistan entered the Afghan theater..as Syria was a Soviet ally..and Saddam made the famous speech in Delhi supporting Indian stance on Kashmir...


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## SQ8

somebozo said:


> Well i know PAF was flying missions out of Syria using Syrian airforce aircrafts..and downed two israeli jets..but things sour up fast as Pakistan entered the Afghan theater..as Syria was a Soviet ally..and Saddam made the famous speech in Delhi supporting Indian stance on Kashmir...



Thank you for summing up history in that simplistic and ignorant manner. The relations soured between Iraq and Pakistan prior to the Afghan war if you actualy read up on history. This began with the recognition of BD (infact, multiple Arab nations did so and it led to a souring of relations), after which at NO point was the Afghan war the problem between Iraq and Pakistan; it was Iraq trying to subvert Iran and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia because our military resources were directly stationed there and Iran because of Iraqi intelligence activities inside Pakistan.

Coming to Syria, at no point besides a brief period in the early 80's were relations bad between Pakistan and Syria. Pakistani instructors went to Syria routinely and their students came here. Syria was one option, I never mentioned Iraq.


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## Drashid

DavidSling said:


> Contains live footage.
> Besides, this confirmed to have TAKEN action.
> Proving that something "would've" happened and didn't, is alot harder without official documentary



I'm curious, as an Israeli, do you support these ops that bomb Arab nations trying to make nukes?


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## Natan

Drashid said:


> I'm curious, as an Israeli, do you support these ops that bomb Arab nations trying to make nukes?


Vast majority of Israelis support these operation, but we are talking about Iraqi and Syrian nuclear projects that we were glad to destroy.
It doesn't mean that if Egypt, Jordan, or even Saudi Arabia and UAE would ever run their own nuclear projects, Israel vows to bomb them too. Not every Arab nation is as hostile towards Israel as Iraq and Syria, and vice versa.


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## Drashid

Natan said:


> Vast majority of Israelis support these operation, but we are talking about Iraqi and Syrian nuclear projects that we were glad to destroy.
> It doesn't mean that if Egypt, Jordan, or even Saudi Arabia and UAE would ever run their own nuclear projects, Israel vows to bomb them too. Not every Arab nation is as hostile towards Israel as Iraq and Syria, and vice versa.



I can understand bombing Iraq, Saddam couldn't be trusted with nukes, but why Syria? They pose no threat to Israel, bombing them is just playing bully.


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## DavidSling

Drashid said:


> I'm curious, as an Israeli, do you support these ops that bomb Arab nations trying to make nukes?


As an Israeli, I support any action that is beneficial for my country's future



Drashid said:


> I can understand bombing Iraq, Saddam couldn't be trusted with nukes, but why Syria? They pose no threat to Israel, bombing them is just playing bully.


Srsly? Almost every major in the past included syria + supplying weapons to our enemies

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## Hamartia Antidote

somebozo said:


> ...



The Iran-Iraq was from 1980-1988.
There is no way Pakistan or Israel would fly anywhere near the Persian Gulf unless they wanted to get shot down by not only them but also the US Fleet in the Persian Gulf protecting oil tankers.

Israel would probably get access to in flight refueling to fly south of Saudi Arabia and over the Indian Ocean and then due a North turn when below Pakistan.

Flying through that area was not worth the risk or potential political fallout.


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## HAIDER

Natan said:


> Vast majority of Israelis support these operation, but we are talking about Iraqi and Syrian nuclear projects that we were glad to destroy.
> It doesn't mean that if Egypt, Jordan, or even Saudi Arabia and UAE would ever run their own nuclear projects, Israel vows to bomb them too. Not every Arab nation is as hostile towards Israel as Iraq and Syria, and vice versa.


There projects are power generation not worth bombing. Plus, they are building under strict rules of NPT and NSG. Operated by western engineers. Offshore operation.

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## Natan

Drashid said:


> I can understand bombing Iraq, Saddam couldn't be trusted with nukes, but why Syria? They pose no threat to Israel, bombing them is just playing bully.


In 2007, one year after 2006 Lebanon War, four years before Syrian civil war, it was perfectly reasonable for Israel to prevent Assad from having nukes. Assad was on Hezbullah side, Assad provided them weapons, namely ATGMs we've captured in Lebanon. With 'scuds' and chemical weapons Assad was as much dangerous as Saddam. He repeated his claims for the Golan heights over and over again. If you understand why we bombed Iraq, then, well, we bombed Assad for the same reason. He couldn't be trusted with nukes.



HAIDER said:


> There projects are power generation not worth bombing. Plus, they are under strict rules of NPT and NSG.


That's right, but let's say even if Egypt goes for nuclear weapons. Are we going to bomb Egypt for that? Nahh.. We have peace agreement and we are not going to violate it unless they violate it.

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## HAIDER

Natan said:


> In 2007, one year after 2006 Lebanon War, four years before Syrian civil war, it was perfectly reasonable for Israel to prevent Assad from having nukes. Assad was on Hezbullah side, Assad provided them weapons, namely ATGMs we've captured in Lebanon. With 'scuds' and chemical weapons Assad was as much dangerous as Saddam. He repeated his claims for the Golan heights over and over again. If you understand why we bombed Iraq, then, well, we bombed Assad for the same reason. He couldn't be trusted with nukes.
> 
> 
> That's right, but let's say even if Egypt goes for nuclear weapons. Are we going to bomb Egypt for that? Nahh.. We have peace agreement and we are not going to violate it unless they violate it.


Well, remember Egypt is not democracy. And dictatorship sometime tilt over night. No if and buts, security comes first. And you govt pretty much aware about the ground reality of your next door neighbor .


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## war&peace

Windjammer said:


> There is an acute difference between maintaining air superiority and carrying out a surprise surgical strike.
> You are also forgetting that in the 80s, PAF was very much present in Middle East, in fact it was in the mid-80s, Colonel Qaddafi asked PAF personal on secondment to Libya, to attack the US Task force which was menacing the Libyan coast.


PAF has been flying in Syrian and Jordinian skies too...that's as close to Israel as one can get..


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## Natan

HAIDER said:


> Well, remember Egypt is not democracy. And dictatorship sometime tilt over night. No if and buts, security comes first. And you govt pretty much aware about the ground reality of your next door neighbor .


Yes, but we've never bombed 'friendly dictators' so far. We only bomb hostile ones.


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## HAIDER

Natan said:


> Yes, but we've never bombed 'friendly dictators' so far. We only bomb hostile ones.


LOLzzz.....lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz that's funny......but must have Plan B somewhere in secret vault.

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## PDF

DJ_Viper said:


> Are you sure you want me to tell you the truth? 99% of humans get pissed off when they hear the truth. The truth is, there were three times in each civilian government's previous tiny cycle, where this issue came close to a civil resolution (meaning without a war). And it was on equal terms as India wasn't as powerful as it is today. Now, the Pakistani military even knows the massive imbalance that exists between the two nations and its growing by every month and at a very fast race!
> 
> India, just last month signed more deals than the entire defense budget of Pakistan for an entire year. So you've lost that "equality" that was there 20 years ago. Now, more than likely, Kashmir will be settled on terms of "as-is" meaning the current boundaries will become permanent. Macho talk is all different, but simply put (militarily), Pakistan has no offensive means to "get Kashmir" anymore. Does that tell you where the Kashmir situation is? Reality is a bi**h and the sooner you wake up to it, the better it is.


Please tell during which civilians government it occurred? Also tell me the end result... Oh massive imbalance you say... Please continue. I am sure Pakistan is on its knees to India due to the imbalance.

Let India purchase whatever it does. You do realize that Pakistan has the deterrence created by them due to those purchases. Regarding Kashmir, Pakistan does not even need to use its military. The oppression has caused local to rebel and security wise, Indian cannot control IOK... Maybe you need to live in the reality. I am well awake but I am not sure about you...




DJ_Viper said:


> What support..? Pakistani Civil and Military leaders are now constantly asking the US to help put a line in the sand as Pakistan needs to focus on her economy and it has no ability to even come close to a continued arms race in this region. You can't ever get offensive with $ 8-10 billion defense budget compared to a $ 50-75 billion defense budget with 3:1 odds in India's favor.


We defended ourselves in 1965 when the odds were 5:1 or more. We can protect ourselves very well. Why should we go offensive?




DJ_Viper said:


> Similarly, what "support" for the Palestinians? What is it that Pakistan has done that was so great for the Palestinians beyond talking points? The best thing for the Palestinians is if like Turkey, Pakistan became Israel's friend and pursued her towards establishing a two state solution and helped in that process. In both scenarios above, only fools can think about anything but diplomatic option.


We have supported them at UN and will continue to do so.



DJ_Viper said:


> IMO, Pakistan has a huge talent base, and Israel can help in pushing that talent base to a better use through offering technology and other stuff. Remember, Israel is all about business and establishing ties with Muslim countries. And like Israel, Pakistan is also a nuke power in the Muslim world (and the only one). So two can join hands and do a lot of good for the world.





DJ_Viper said:


> I am glad you said that. When *General Musharraff* went to his one of the first mainstream tours to the US, who did he address? And spent about 80% of the time with? The American Jewish community and in his words "he was honored to address the "distinguished" American Jewish community" (I witnessed this statement). Now* this was the Army Chief of Pakistan and the President*



You do realize he was one of the dictators whom you critize. Funny, He was the reason TTP i.e terrorism begun in our country...

Okay more discussion after Fajr Prayer. Got to go!


----------



## Drashid

Natan said:


> In 2007, one year after 2006 Lebanon War, four years before Syrian civil war, it was perfectly reasonable for Israel to prevent Assad from having nukes. Assad was on Hezbullah side, Assad provided them weapons, namely ATGMs we've captured in Lebanon. With 'scuds' and chemical weapons Assad was as much dangerous as Saddam. He repeated his claims for the Golan heights over and over again. If you understand why we bombed Iraq, then, well, we bombed Assad for the same reason. He couldn't be trusted with nukes.



The difference between Saddam and Assad was that Saddam controlled a powerful and well equipped military, where as Assad did not. All Syria could ever do was make claims, if they tried to act upon them they would be crushed. Even if they made nukes they would still pose very little danger. Assad having nukes would just make it harder for Israel to meddle in Syrian affairs.



DavidSling said:


> As an Israeli, I support any action that is beneficial for my country's future
> 
> 
> Srsly? Almost every major in the past included syria + supplying weapons to our enemies



And how many wars did Syria even come close to beating Israel in? Zero. Just because they help your enemies does not mean you can stop them from being able to defend themselves. Besides, they have never been powerful to begin with.


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## Green Arrow

http://www.dawn.com/news/1195904


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## DJ_Viper

M.Musa said:


> Please tell during which civilians government it occurred? Also tell me the end result... Oh massive imbalance you say... Please continue. I am sure Pakistan is on its knees to India due to the imbalance.



I have built a few rules in my life on how to deal with people and topics. I don't respond to emotional and upset people as logic can never win there and you end up wasting time. You are getting there so I'll try to respond one last time with just logic and will back off. You have a right to think how you do and I have a right to stick to the facts I know. We agree to disagree and that's fine 

The Kashmir issue had gained traction with Benazir. But it didn't make a whole lot of progress in front of the Public due to the Military STILL involved with the country. She was scared and didn't want to get the military inside the power again.

Then, in Nawaz and company's previous time, twice, there were serious breakthroughs that would've come. But the military was in power and was running behind the scene military campaign to avoid making progress on Kashmir. Kargil was just one example. I can't write a book on here but there is a lot of detail on the topic that senior people on here would know also.



> Let India purchase whatever it does. You do realize that Pakistan has the deterrence created by them due to those purchases. Regarding Kashmir, Pakistan does not even need to use its military. The oppression has caused local to rebel and security wise, Indian cannot control IOK... Maybe you need to live in the reality. I am well awake but I am not sure about you...



Everyone in the globe knows Pakistan has deterrence. My post didn't talk about that. My post specifically mentioned Pakistan has NO offensive capability anymore to claim "we'll take Kashmir by force". That sentence is dead and drowned deep inside the Indian ocean. That's just a reality.

Also, if the "deterrence" is SO strong, how come the Pak Military is in a panic mode over "arms race in South Asia"? . Like I said, macho statements are one thing, the ground realities are entirely different. You should try to meet with your Army Chief to understand the ground realities. He knows them very well.



> We defended ourselves in 1965 when the odds were 5:1 or more. We can protect ourselves very well. Why should we go offensive?



Till around1995, Pakistan air-force and the military were always considered to have much better equipment than the Indian side. Plus, the numbers weren't that different economically. Today, the IA/IAF is much superior in numerical and technological advantage. Plus their training has jumped up a LOT. If I wrote some of the military offensive scenarios on here that may be used by India, you will not be happy and I might get banned. So I'll leave it at that.

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## princefaisal

For any future conflict/attack, Paf must be prepared to defend itself from the Israeli F-35s.


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## PDF

DJ_Viper said:


> I have built a few rules in my life on how to deal with people and topics. I don't respond to emotional and upset people as logic can never win there and you end up wasting time. You are getting there so I'll try to respond one last time with just logic and will back off. You have a right to think how you do and I have a right to stick to the facts I know. We agree to disagree and that's fine
> 
> The Kashmir issue had gained traction with Benazir. But it didn't make a whole lot of progress in front of the Public due to the Military STILL involved with the country. She was scared and didn't want to get the military inside the power again.
> 
> Then, in Nawaz and company's previous time, twice, there were serious breakthroughs that would've come. But the military was in power and was running behind the scene military campaign to avoid making progress on Kashmir. Kargil was just one example. I can't write a book on here but there is a lot of detail on the topic that senior people on here would know also.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone in the globe knows Pakistan has deterrence. My post didn't talk about that. My post specifically mentioned Pakistan has NO offensive capability anymore to claim "we'll take Kashmir by force". That sentence is dead and drowned deep inside the Indian ocean. That's just a reality.
> 
> Also, if the "deterrence" is SO strong, how come the Pak Military is in a panic mode over "arms race in South Asia"? . Like I said, macho statements are one thing, the ground realities are entirely different. You should try to meet with your Army Chief to understand the ground realities. He knows them very well.
> 
> 
> 
> Till around1995, Pakistan air-force and the military were always considered to have much better equipment than the Indian side. Plus, the numbers weren't that different economically. Today, the IA/IAF is much superior in numerical and technological advantage. Plus their training has jumped up a LOT. If I wrote some of the military offensive scenarios on here that may be used by India, you will not be happy and I might get banned. So I'll leave it at that.


Even I do not tend to discuss with someone who has little information or false information.

Kashmir problem can never be solved diplomatically. The closest we got to solve it was not during a civilian government but during dictatorship I. E when Musharaf was in power.

https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&...KAEwBA&usg=AFQjCNFZAR__QF79_g-C6uX1mSvMlO40-A

http://nation.com.pk/national/11-Ju...kashmir-issue-was-acceptable-former-raw-chief

He tried to solve it after the Kargil episode even the Indians acknowledge this. You do not know the history of Pakistan and just bash the dictatorship. Yes it is bad, but few decisions during them are significant.

Ironically, today the negotiations are stalled by the Indian side due to the Kashmir issue...
You know nothing about the Kashmir issue let alone Pakistan. One have to understand the background etc to get the grip around an event...

I will leave the Kashmir issue aside for now...

Regarding Military, we never wanted offensive capability. We always man tainted defensive offensive. If you believe India has diminished Pakistan capability relatively to its, you can not be more wrong.

And yes we are panicked form India ' s arm race.
We always mantained we do not want arm race. You are underestimating Pakistan and overestimating India.
You should go through the relative threads to know the Military capabilities of both the nations.

You think money is all that matters , Although It plays major role but we have same capabilities in a fraction of cost what others get.

BTW, let's discuss India and Pakistan in a new or the appropriate thread. We do not want to hijack this thread do we? Any more discussion relating this topic will not be on this thread or otherwise will be reported. ..

please tell me do you believe Israel planned such a attack on Pakistan nuclear installations?


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## omega supremme

Stealth said:


> Can somebody (especially Indian Military or Govt official) explain this **** why not Indian AF did Surgical strike after 26/11!




Indians are only good for propaganda and blaming every shortfalling in their defence or in the country over Pakistan but never took action after 2002 incident or mumbai attack only good for barking

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## Azad-Kashmiri

Why reopen a really old thread? People are harping about the 8xF16s not handed over. Compare the specs of those and the ZOPs F16i, F-15is, etc There is no comparison. We have outdated, junk, so the talk about doing, this and that, is insulting yourselves. 

If the OP scenario ever took place, they will carry it through the next time. That time is not far.

I personally can't care less about our nukes. You people are ALWAYS talking about ''losing'' them, and Amrika is after them, etc. Don't you see the irony of it? A thing that is supposed to bring you security, you're hiding it like a crook, from one place to another so you don't lose it! This should OPEN your eyes that you have faith in the wrong thing!

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## PDF

So I guess no Israeli agree with OP here. The world of denial is not new to them. They are living in that world...


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## Joe Shearer

Blue Marlin said:


> what are you doing ?
> why are you opening up a thread 2 years old ?
> that israeli dude has been opening old thread for a while. dont respond



Because after the Dhaka attacks, I got sick and tired of some of the classic repertory of fairy tales that got an airing.



M.Musa said:


> So I guess no Israeli agree with OP here. The world of denial is not new to them. They are living in that world...



@Blue Marlin 

See what I mean? If you agree, they were right all along. If you disagree, you are in a world of denial, and you live in that world.

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## somebozo

Drashid said:


> The difference between Saddam and Assad was that Saddam controlled a powerful and well equipped military, where as Assad did not. All Syria could ever do was make claims, if they tried to act upon them they would be crushed. Even if they made nukes they would still pose very little danger. Assad having nukes would just make it harder for Israel to meddle in Syrian affairs.



Assad military is very well equipped and very well trained too..they have militarily occupied Lebanon for twenty something years...he has been able to sustain the civil war for a few good years now..with the world on one side and Assad on the other..Syria financial history as world largest defaulter nation has a role to play in the deterioration of their military assets as even the closest ally Russia refused to sell...until very recently when aiding against ISIS became necessary...

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## Joe Shearer

DJ_Viper said:


> I have built a few rules in my life on how to deal with people and topics. I don't respond to emotional and upset people as logic can never win there and you end up wasting time. You are getting there so I'll try to respond one last time with just logic and will back off. You have a right to think how you do and I have a right to stick to the facts I know. We agree to disagree and that's fine
> 
> The Kashmir issue had gained traction with Benazir. But it didn't make a whole lot of progress in front of the Public due to the Military STILL involved with the country. She was scared and didn't want to get the military inside the power again.
> 
> Then, in Nawaz and company's previous time, twice, there were serious breakthroughs that would've come. But the military was in power and was running behind the scene military campaign to avoid making progress on Kashmir. Kargil was just one example. I can't write a book on here but there is a lot of detail on the topic that senior people on here would know also.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone in the globe knows Pakistan has deterrence. My post didn't talk about that. My post specifically mentioned Pakistan has NO offensive capability anymore to claim "we'll take Kashmir by force". That sentence is dead and drowned deep inside the Indian ocean. That's just a reality.
> 
> Also, if the "deterrence" is SO strong, how come the Pak Military is in a panic mode over "arms race in South Asia"? . Like I said, macho statements are one thing, the ground realities are entirely different. You should try to meet with your Army Chief to understand the ground realities. He knows them very well.
> 
> 
> 
> Till around1995, Pakistan air-force and the military were always considered to have much better equipment than the Indian side. Plus, the numbers weren't that different economically. Today, the IA/IAF is much superior in numerical and technological advantage. Plus their training has jumped up a LOT. If I wrote some of the military offensive scenarios on here that may be used by India, you will not be happy and I might get banned. So I'll leave it at that.



It is true.

There is simply no point in arguing with the emotionally involved.

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## Natan

Drashid said:


> The difference between Saddam and Assad was that Saddam controlled a powerful and well equipped military, where as Assad did not. All Syria could ever do was make claims, if they tried to act upon them they would be crushed. Even if they made nukes they would still pose very little danger.


Israel couldn't see the difference then, and I still can't see it now.

I hope it answers your curiosity.


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## sohail.ishaque

KS said:


> Scary....Can somebody explain to me what was the wrath of God that would have been unleashed on India by the PAF ?



ur primeminister of that time was aware of that wrath,.. and that scared her,.. u better ask what it was that scared her

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## Max Pain

DJ_Viper said:


> Till around1995, Pakistan air-force and the military were always considered to have much better equipment than the Indian side. Plus, the numbers weren't that different economically. Today, the IA/IAF is much superior in numerical and technological advantage. Plus their training has jumped up a LOT. If I wrote some of the military offensive scenarios on here that may be used by India, you will not be happy and I might get banned. So I'll leave it at that.


 
please do.


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## Zain Malik

MadDog said:


> Absolute non sense, this article has been circulated through out various blogs, we Pakistanis love to believe in conspiracy theories. Israel has nothing to with Pakistan, last time any Israeli leader mentioned Pakistan it was *Shimon Peres who prayed for Musharaf*. Infact, *in 2010 Israelis offered Pakistan to sell their guided munitions for PAF for war on terror*, an offer which was rejected by PAF. This was stated by Pakistan Air chief in a speech. Recently *Pakistan Airforce also bought aircraft refueling trucks from Israel indirectly through Turkey.*
> 
> *I am still wondering how senior and respected members on this forum like "WindJammer" are agreeing with this delusional article.*


Truth always tastes bitter my friend....
Reality is reality whether u accept or not.

When Israel Air force landed its F-16 to lAB the then president ZiaulHaq visited India as there was a cricket match between Pakistan and India in year 1984.
He was sittind alongside the Indian pm and he said to Indian pm:
"Stop what u are doing to destroy our nuclear assets .There are many Muslims and Muslim countries in world except Pakistan but Hindu are only in India. We have successfully tested our Nuclear Assets but not yet have declared to the world u better stop this otherwise you will yourself responsible for your destruction"
Since then Israel backed up and didn't dared again .


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## Drashid

Natan said:


> Israel couldn't see the difference then, and I still can't see it now.
> 
> I hope it answers your curiosity.



If Israel can't see the difference, then it seems to me like its a bit of a bully nation.


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## Natan

Drashid said:


> If Israel can't see the difference, then it seems to me like its a bit of a bully nation.


OK. We a bit of a bully nation. Now what?


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## Drashid

somebozo said:


> Assad military is very well equipped and very well trained too..they have militarily occupied Lebanon for twenty something years...he has been able to sustain the civil war for a few good years now..with the world on one side and Assad on the other..Syria financial history as world largest defaulter nation has a role to play in the deterioration of their military assets as even the closest ally Russia refused to sell...until very recently when aiding against ISIS became necessary...



Assad has a budget of 2 billion dollars for his military. Israel has one of 15 billion dollars. See the difference? Assad is poorly equipped, maybe my statement about poor training was unfair, but still. He remains poorly equipped.



Natan said:


> OK. We a bit of a bully nation. Now what?



I was just stating my opinion


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## Spectre

M.Musa said:


> Although It plays major role but we have same capabilities in a fraction of cost what others get.



Elaborate? Real world does not have fairy godmothers. 

As for US largesse, It extracted enough from Pakistan in terms of economic equivalence and human costs. 

So please tell how you claim to have "same" capablity which implies numerical and qualitative equivalence at the same economic cost.


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## SQ8

Spectre said:


> Elaborate? Real world does not have fairy godmothers.
> 
> As for US largesse, It extracted enough from Pakistan in terms of economic equivalence and human costs.
> 
> So please tell how you claim to have "same" capablity which implies numerical and qualitative equivalence at the same economic cost.


There is no such thing as same capability. The misunderstanding common among members from both sides of the border is that numbers or technology translates to measurement of capability.Whereas each side leverages on other factors such as the terrain and environment to enhance its capability.

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## Spectre

Oscar said:


> There is no such thing as same capability. The misunderstanding common among members from both sides of the border is that numbers or technology translates to measurement of capability.Whereas each side leverages on other factors such as the terrain and environment to enhance its capability.



How long are terrain and environment going to stay relevant? There will come a stage where the defensive advantage offered would be offset by advances in technology. 

Anyway this debate is irrelevant for all intents and purpose - even if Pakistan has lesser numbers and inferior quality weapons it matters not. The fact is that no country - not even US can "capture or invade" Pakistan the old way.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Spectre said:


> How long are terrain and environment going to stay relevant? There will come a stage where the defensive advantage offered would be offset by advances in technology.
> 
> Anyway this debate is irrelevant for all intents and purpose - even if Pakistan has lesser numbers and inferior quality weapons it matters not. The fact is that no country - not even US can "capture or invade" Pakistan the old way.




A lot of neocons who run america would vehemently disagree with you.

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## SQ8

Spectre said:


> How long are terrain and environment going to stay relevant? There will come a stage where the defensive advantage offered would be offset by advances in technology.
> 
> Anyway this debate is irrelevant for all intents and purpose - even if Pakistan has lesser numbers and inferior quality weapons it matters not. The fact is that no country - not even US can "capture or invade" Pakistan the old way.


Off course it would. Back in desert storm, the Iraqi Air Defence network was considered one of the best(if not the) in the ME. Yet, a combination of overwhelming force and technology undid it.

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## Blue Marlin

israel is not dumb enough to destroy pakistani nuclear facility. the usa needed pakistani so much they ignored attempts to stop them getting the tech to build nukes even though they knew. only the soviets will have the balls to do such a stunt.


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## Joe Shearer

Spectre said:


> How long are terrain and environment going to stay relevant? There will come a stage where the defensive advantage offered would be offset by advances in technology.
> 
> Anyway this debate is irrelevant for all intents and purpose - even if Pakistan has lesser numbers and inferior quality weapons it matters not. The fact is that no country - not even US can "capture or invade" Pakistan the old way.



Forever.

Look at the terrain on the borders with China and explain to me, if you can, if you wish, how anyone fighting against the PLA might hope to win a war. As distinct from achieving some kind of stalemate by very agile grand tactical movement.

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## CorporateAffairs

Such as useless topic. 
Moron Nehru denied US assistance in nuclear tests and let go UNSC seat with veto.
Which was clinched by China.
Anti National Congress has stood up to its name, destroying India.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Afghanistan has proved that technology in itself is " NOTHING " in itself. For the technology to have significance---the target needs to be of proportional value and of substantial importance.

That means what good would it do if a 250000 dollar missile destroys a $25 mud hut----it ain't going to be that painful-----but if in return it destroys a million or 5 million dollar or 10 million dollar target---that is where you would see the the true devastation caused by superior technology----and visualize the real pain of the opponent.

It is in a similar manner that a blackout in a major city in pakistan would hardly have any effect on the daily workings of pakistans than if it was in a major city in the U S----where it would cause a major chaos---.

But it would be easier to capitulate pakistan by the U S forces than compared to afghanistan---because of the comparative loss factor---. The terrain would play a very important role---because most important cities are on flatland except a few.


Here is an interesting read on iraqi air defences

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-defence.htm

I watched the live war unfold on CNN and I did not see any iraqi missile launch chasing anything.

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## Signalian

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That means what good would it do if a 250000 dollar missile destroys a $25 mud hut----it ain't going to be that painful-----but if in return it destroys a million or 5 million dollar or 10 million dollar target---that is where you would see the the true devastation caused by superior technology----and visualize the real pain of the opponent.


Car salesman psyche , hahahahaha  i got reminded of that J-10 post of your.

It has to be business for you everywhere $$$.

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## litman

Zain Malik said:


> Truth always tastes bitter my friend....
> Reality is reality whether u accept or not.
> 
> When Israel Air force landed its F-16 to lAB the then president ZiaulHaq visited India as there was a cricket match between Pakistan and India in year 1984.
> He was sittind alongside the Indian pm and he said to Indian pm:
> "Stop what u are doing to destroy our nuclear assets .There are many Muslims and Muslim countries in world except Pakistan but Hindu are only in India. We have successfully tested our Nuclear Assets but not yet have declared to the world u better stop this otherwise you will yourself responsible for your destruction"
> Since then Israel backed up and didn't dared again .


and then zia ul haq created taliban , lashkar e abc , lashkar e xyz which have destroyed pakistan from within


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## Mentee

Sarge said:


> Car salesman psyche , hahahahaha  i got reminded of that J-10 post of your.
> 
> It has to be business for you everywhere $$$.


you got anything more credible than him? if yes, then please enlighten us



litman said:


> and then zia ul haq created taliban , lashkar e abc , lashkar e xyz which have destroyed pakistan from within



you can add mr bhutto to the list as well ,the ribbon cutting ceremony was initiated by him

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## Signalian

Mentee said:


> you got anything more credible than him? if yes, then please enlighten us


Dont poke your nose into stuff you dont understand. Stop quoting me. Bugger off.


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## Mentee

Sarge said:


> Dont poke your nose into stuff you dont understand. Stop quoting me. Bugger off.


well mr 100% iam old enought to run a state EFFECTIVELY

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## Signalian

@MastanKhan Its interesting to read your posts, but the use of ignore button mentioned in your posts is priceless. It just made my life easy coz some fools will never understand .

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## mrrehan

KS said:


> Do you know how many Indian Nuclear facilities are there and how deep they are inside India ? If the ambassador knew geography and the relative capabilities of pAF vis-a-vis IAF he would not have said that.
> 
> Ok let alone Indian nuclear facilities. But Israeli Negev facility. Seriously ? Did PAF have the capability to carry out such a strike 6000 kms away without refuellers at that time ?
> 
> So actually to burst the bubble, no such incident ever happened. Its just another of those paranoid conspiracy theories by the Pakistanis who seek to shore up their importance to outside world.



Buddy you are just arrogantly commenting here and there. You seriously need a lot of natural readings and should behave neutral. If you woke up next day denying "there were no Japanese kamikaze pilots" don't except every one will agree with you. 

Just to let you know normally the distance between Pakistan and so called Jewish country is 3,283km make it to 3,500km where Pakistani F-16 at that time was capable to go and hit the target 4,220km make it back to 4000km which is enough to achieve the target in Jewish so called country. And from the beginning every one was aware that the mission will be ONE WAY. In a sense "kamikaze"


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## 313ghazi

DJ_Viper said:


> I think its time you put your country first. What has the Palestinian issue given to your country since the creation of your country? Nothing!! While the Saudis, Turks, and majority of other Muslim countries have enjoyed working with the Israelis. Have you solved the Kashmir problem in the past 70 years, even with so many wars and conflicts? Not sure when Pakistanis will learn that the diplomatic relations is the only way to live and get things accomplished in today's globe.



This is a bit of a side note, but all the Muslim countries you quoted were set up on racial or ethnic grounds. Pakistan was setup on religious grounds, a country which was a home for Muslims. A lot of Pakistani's take that to be a green light to make all Muslim issues there issues. There is some religious support to this way of thinking, but practically it's not been implemented wholescale for 1400 years.


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## HAIDER

bump, some people interested to learn about Pakistan policy toward Israel.


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## Maarkhoor

During Afghan war against USSR CIA, MOSSAD and ISI worked together...Israel on behest of CIA provided Pakistan USSR made weapons (AKs and RPGs) in large numbers..they came so close even discuss Israel / Pakistani relations and come to conclusion that our nuclear weapons exclusively for Indian adventures not for Israel hence both stop working each other especially Israeli MOSSAD hence they abort any plan to attack or sabotage Pakistani nuclear installations.

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## khanmubashir

Israeli would shoot down . commercial plane with 100s of civilian to take it's place ??
Which country plane would that be


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## MZ-PDF

[emoji106]


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## Novice09

arp2041 said:


> Actually i have heard this story, RAW brought the blue prints of Kahuta nuclear reactor at the time when Morarji Desai was the PM of India, they wanted more money to thwart the nuclear ambitions of Pakistan, but our great PM rejected the plans & instead made it aware to Pakistan that India knows what they are doing thus the mole inside Pakistan who passed the blue print to RAW was exposed & killed by Pakistan agencies & what Morarji Desai got is Nishan-e-Pakistan from Pakistan (it's highest civilian order) becoming the only Indian to got the same.
> 
> Our PM MMS is working to get another for an Indian (himself) by planning to vacate Siachin unconditionally.
> 
> Here's the link:
> 
> RAW & Mossad: The Secret Link



Morarji Desai, IK Gujral and Manmohan Singh... These 3 PMs have did gr8 work to destroy RAW n IB's network...


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## Michael Corleone

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan's Ambassador to the US clearly mentioned, addressing to the UN, that Pakistan would lay waste to India's nuclear facilities and Israel's Nuclear facilities in Negev desert. After this, India backed out hence the attack never took place.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> This article talks about the initial plan to attack Kahuta in 1980s, but failed to point at even stronger attack in 1998. It was way stronger and large on scale, with India again joining hands. All PAF fighters were in air, Mirage, F-7P, J-6 and F-16s. Every Squadron and every Air base was active 24/7 since the intelligence reports from ISI and intercepts from PAF Air Defence systems of unusual aircraft movement across border with confirmed sighting of atleast one F-16.
> 
> The C-130s that were to transport the parts and other goods related to the project were always escorted by 4 F-16s throughout journey and other areas being controlled by CAPs. There were 'secret' instructions issued to the pilots of those 4 F-16s, that if the C-130 makes any unusual move, you are cleared to shoot it down. There is information available on deployment of AAA units, SAM units, CAP and ADA Squadrons and the number of sorties flown with everything you need to know to get idea of the hustle.


No wonder when they say ISI is one of the best if not the best intelligence agency in the world!


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## The Accountant

Maarkhoor said:


> During Afghan war against USSR CIA, MOSSAD and ISI worked together...Israel on behest of CIA provided Pakistan USSR made weapons (AKs and RPGs) in large numbers..they came so close even discuss Israel / Pakistani relations and come to conclusion that our nuclear weapons exclusively for Indian adventures not for Israel hence both stop working each other especially Israeli MOSSAD hence they abort any plan to attack or sabotage Pakistani nuclear installations.


Your statement do not reconcile with historical facts ... 1982(during afghan war) was the year in which attack was planned .. in 1999 had Israel not helped India kargil would have been completely still in our control ...

Mossad is active in Balochistan indicated by former military personnal ...

Hamid gul openly claims that mossad was working against Pakistan at the time he was isi head ...


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## fitpOsitive

khanmubashir said:


> Israeli would shoot down . commercial plane with 100s of civilian to take it's place ??
> Which country plane would that be


Malaysian or Srilankan.



Mentee said:


> well mr 100% iam old enought to run a state EFFECTIVELY


Mentee, mera vote aapka. Bhai sath hai, qadam berhao.

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## Maarkhoor

The Accountant said:


> Your statement do not reconcile with historical facts ... 1982(during afghan war) was the year in which attack was planned .. in 1999 had Israel not helped India kargil would have been completely still in our control ...
> 
> Mossad is active in Balochistan indicated by former military personnal ...
> 
> Hamid gul openly claims that mossad was working against Pakistan at the time he was isi head ...


Yes you are partially correct since we also done somethings against them but at largely we don't do any serious damage to each other...

Kargill was another issue Indian approach USA for help and since we are in US camp so they referred India to Israel to modify Mirage 2000 to carry out precision laser guided strikes and they only modified 5 Mirages with limited no of ammunition which causes no much damages.

During SWAT operation MOSSAD help us on behest of US to de-root terrorism....It is a proven fact...Sir.


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## The Accountant

Maarkhoor said:


> Yes you are partially correct since we also done somethings against them but at largely we don't do any serious damage to each other...
> 
> Kargill was another issue Indian approach USA for help and since we are in US camp so they referred India to Israel to modify Mirage 2000 to carry out precision laser guided strikes and they only modified 5 Mirages with limited no of ammunition which causes no much damages.
> 
> During SWAT operation MOSSAD help us on behest of US to de-root terrorism....It is a proven fact...Sir.


How do you know swat operation for a fact ? Apparently thats a rumour ...

Intelligence sharing is something else which was being done even between soviet union and us ...


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## Path-Finder

Maarkhoor said:


> *During SWAT operation MOSSAD help us on behest of US to de-root terrorism....It is a proven fact...Sir.*



I think you have truly lost your marbles!


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## Maarkhoor

Path-Finder said:


> I think you have truly lost your marbles!


Yes they help us...

And I am not a weekend troll but serving with pride in P.A...since last three gen...

have good night Sir.
Regards,


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## Path-Finder

Maarkhoor said:


> Yes they help us...
> 
> And I am not a weekend troll but serving with pride in P.A...since last three gen...
> 
> have good night Sir.
> Regards,


cool, Good Night

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## Maarkhoor

The Accountant said:


> How do you know swat operation for a fact ? Apparently thats a rumour ...
> 
> Intelligence sharing is something else which was being done even between soviet union and us ...


Yes only intelligence sharing … off course....


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## Star Expedition

Isreal's F16 can only attach 1 or 2 Pak nuclear base, not all.
nothing to worry about.


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## MastanKhan

Maarkhoor said:


> Kargill was another issue Indian approach USA for help and since we are in US camp so they referred India to Israel to modify Mirage 2000 to carry out precision laser guided strikes and they only modified 5 Mirages with limited no of ammunition which causes no much damages.
> 
> During SWAT operation MOSSAD help us on behest of US to de-root terrorism....It is a proven fact...Sir.



Hi,

It is very difficult for many a people to understand that part---.

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## Thorough Pro

As per my knowledge, CIA bought from Israel, the Egyptian armaments they had captured in the Arab Israel war, and delivered to their beloved Taliban through Pakistan. Pakistan or ISI never directly worked with Israel or Mossad. 




Maarkhoor said:


> During Afghan war against USSR CIA, MOSSAD and ISI worked together...Israel on behest of CIA provided Pakistan USSR made weapons (AKs and RPGs) in large numbers..they came so close even discuss Israel / Pakistani relations and come to conclusion that our nuclear weapons exclusively for Indian adventures not for Israel hence both stop working each other especially Israeli MOSSAD hence they abort any plan to attack or sabotage Pakistani nuclear installations.



They may have done so under the guise of the CIA.



Maarkhoor said:


> During SWAT operation MOSSAD help us on behest of US to de-root terrorism....It is a proven fact...Sir.


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## Raider 21

Old thread, but an interesting one. I recall reading my dad's logbook.....it was called Operation Thunderbolt, somewhere in 1984 when entire PAF was awake in 7-10 mins once the news reached of that the IDF/AF were on their way...



Path-Finder said:


> I think you have truly lost your marbles!


Nope, Mossad thought US had lost their marbles when they were asked to do so on their behalf....


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## Maarkhoor

Thorough Pro said:


> They may have done so under the guise of the CIA.


They are well connected with R&AW and know how R&AW used Gurkhas soldiers as Uzbek fighters against Pakistan.

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