# Pakistan successfully tests Babur 2 Cruise Missile.



## Ghazwa e Hind

Stick to the thread for more news.

Pakistan tested advanced Cruise Missile Babar-II. Missile can hit the targets at land and sea and have a range of 700 kilometers. This missile can work without the help of GPS.

CJCSC also witnessed the missile test.

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## Crying wolf

Waiting for more information

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## maximuswarrior

Wow! Waiting for an official source, but *congrats*! Huge news. This must be a heavily improved version of the initial Babur cruise missile. I wonder what the range will be. Babur is a God's gift to Pakistan. Something we can be very proud of.

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

http://www.dnd.com.pk/pakistan-successfully-tests-babur-weapon-system-version-2/120995
*Pakistan successfully tests Babur Weapon System version – 2*
By
DND
-
December 14, 2016
*RAWALPINDI, Pakistan: Pakistan on Wednesday conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile, according to the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR).*

The ISPR said that Babur Weapon System version – 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy at a range of 700 kilometers.

It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.

Equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation. Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence.

Today’s launch was witnessed by the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.

The CJCSC congratulated the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of great value and significance. He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed to the success of this launch.

Expressing his full confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, CJCSC stated that this test further strengthens Pakistan’s Deterrence Capability.

President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif have congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful conduct of today’s missile test.

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## The Eagle

News coming through ISPR officials.

Pakistan has successfully tests Babur 2 Cruise Missile newer version with 700 KM range. advance aerodynamic, avionics, today.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/809032383861235719

@Side-Winder @farhan_9909 @Horus @Oscar @HRK

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## Maxpane

Wow . great news

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## Attila the Hun

Congrats to my Pakistani brothers & sisters!

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## saiyan0321

*RAWALPINDI, Pakistan: Pakistan on Wednesday conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile, according to the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR).*

The ISPR said that Babur Weapon System version – 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy at a range of 700 kilometers.

It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.

Equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation. Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence.

Today’s launch was witnessed by the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.

The CJCSC congratulated the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of great value and significance. He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed to the success of this launch.

Expressing his full confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, CJCSC stated that this test further strengthens Pakistan’s Deterrence Capability.

President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif have congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful conduct of today’s missile test.

http://www.dnd.com.pk/pakistan-successfully-tests-babur-weapon-system-version-2/120995

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## maximuswarrior

naveedullahkhankhattak said:


> http://www.dnd.com.pk/pakistan-successfully-tests-babur-weapon-system-version-2/120995
> *Pakistan successfully tests Babur Weapon System version – 2*
> By
> DND
> -
> December 14, 2016
> *RAWALPINDI, Pakistan: Pakistan on Wednesday conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile, according to the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR).*
> 
> The ISPR said that Babur Weapon System version – 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy at a range of 700 kilometers.
> 
> It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.
> 
> Equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation. Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence.
> 
> Today’s launch was witnessed by the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.
> 
> The CJCSC congratulated the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of great value and significance. He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed to the success of this launch.
> 
> Expressing his full confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, CJCSC stated that this test further strengthens Pakistan’s Deterrence Capability.
> 
> President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif have congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful conduct of today’s missile test.



Further solidifying Pakistan's missile capability. Just huge news.

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## Maxpane

Why dnt they increase long range missile?

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## The Eagle

Congratulations Team Pakistan...... 

Great news.

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## saiyan0321

Congratulations. Great and awesome news. Wonder what has been added and enhanced in version two.

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## maximuswarrior

Maxpane said:


> Why dnt they increase long range missile?



If the mentioned range is true, it seems the focus was on improving aerodynamics and avionics.

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## Mrc



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## maximuswarrior

Fantastic news. Please merge other threads.


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## Devil Soul

This report is quoting ISPR, but there is no official confirmation from ISPR so far.....


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## Mrc

I think "hitting targets at land and sea" has huge implications also

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

similar thread already running. so some body plz merge both.


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## maximuswarrior

Mrc said:


> I think "hitting targets at land and sea" has huge implications also



Exactly. Huge implication.

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## cirr

Congratulations, guys.

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## The Eagle

@Windjammer @Rashid Mahmood @Indus Falcon @Khafee @Irfan Baloch

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## Rain

Congratulation to SPD teams!


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## Windjammer

Well that was out of the blue, just received this image.

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## maximuswarrior

The Eagle said:


> News coming through ISPR officials.
> 
> Pakistan has successfully tests Babur 2 Cruise Missile newer version with 700 KM range. advance aerodynamic, avionics, today.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/809032383861235719
> 
> @Side-Winder @farhan_9909 @Horus @Oscar @HRK



Is this the new footage of the missile?


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## abdulbarijan



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## Rashid Mahmood

Congrats to all.
*Sea targets* is worth noticing....

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> Well that was out of the blue, just received this image.



There was silence hence the storm...... You know chief. . . .

In three formats, Sea, Air and Land targets. Awaiting for details.



maximuswarrior said:


> Is this the new footage of the missile?



Firing footage is new, further details are awaited.

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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> There was silence hence the storm...... You know chief. . . .
> 
> In three formats, Sea, Air and Land targets. Awaiting for details.
> 
> 
> 
> Firing footage is new, further details are awaited.


Yea, no song and dance, just execute and deliver. Awesome.

Press Release




No PR482/2016-ISPR Dated: December 14, 2016
Rawalpindi - December 14, 2016: 
Pakistan today conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile. Babur Weapon System version - 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy, at a range of 700 kilometers. It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile, which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.

Equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation. Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence.

Today’s launch was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations. Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee congratulated the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of great value and significance. He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed to the success of this launch.

Expressing his full confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, CJCSC stated that this test further strengthens Pakistan’s Deterrence Capability. The President and the Prime Minister of Pakistan have congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful conduct of today’s missile test.

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## Devil Soul

Great NEWS..... 
Ending 2016 like a Boss ... 
ISPR statement awaited....

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## I S I

Hmm, so range is same.
This must be Super Sonic version then.

Hope the sea version is Submarine fire tested.

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## Daghalodi

Heartiest congratulations to pakistan

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/809037391738662912

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## war&peace

Congratulations to the team. This is geared for maritime role. Test came at the right time.

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## war&peace

Congratulations to the team. Great timing for the experiment. This is the naval version of the CM.

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## Zarvan

Good we saw the test but they should increased the range. We need Cruise Missiles which have range of 1500 to 2000 KM


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## YeBeWarned

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Congrats to all.
> *Sea targets* is worth noticing....



Bro, is that same long awaited Naval Version ? or its just some Upgraded Babur ?
Congratulations ,  this news come surprising as there was no thread posted for upcoming missile test  
@Khafee bro, have you notice how secretive our forces are haha

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## Imran Khan

same babur with few more upgrades . can not call it babur-2 sir .

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## Rashid Mahmood

Starlord said:


> Bro, is that same long awaited Naval Version ? or its just some Upgraded Babur ?
> Congratulations ,  this news come surprising as there was no thread posted for upcoming missile test
> @Khafee bro, have you notice how secretive our forces are haha



Upgraded Babur.
All platforms.

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/809037139992309760
That range thou and the Sea target hitting ability, speaks volume of development in this category as per need. A well timed and much needed development.

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## Valar Dohaeris

Congratulations to the team.

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## Ghazwa e Hind

Released footage of the missile test. Hope that it is a supersonic missile with much agility in it.
We can deploy them to help the Pakistan Navy and No. 2 Minhas Squadron in securing Maritime boundaries and EEZ.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/809037391738662912

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## 90ArsalanLeo

I S I said:


> Hope the sea version is Submarine fire tested.



we dont have submarines capable of firing SLBM or SLCM i hope the new chinese subs can give us that ability


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Elhamdulillah!!! Tebrikler!!!

Don't have any clue but at the least the name Babur is provided by the Turkish folks. One nation two states....

The sea based version from the subs to be rehauled by the Turkish form STM is noteworthy. Hopefully MILGEM will have this provision too...

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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan conducts successful test of Babur cruise missile*
DAWN.COM — PUBLISHED 7 minutes ago
WHATSAPP
 0 COMMENTS
 PRINT
Pakistan on Wednesday conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur cruise missile., said a statement released from the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR).

The cruise missile incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics and can strike targets on both land and sea at a range of 700 kilometres, added the ISPR statement.

“It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile, which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads,” the military’s media wing said.

The Babur cruise missile is equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC), which enables it to hit targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation.

“Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence.”

The launch was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from the Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organisations.

“This test further strengthens Pakistan’s deterrence capability,” said General Hayat.

*Pakistan successfully tests fires indigenous Babur Cruise Missile*
By News Desk
Published: December 14, 2016
5SHARES
SHARE TWEET EMAIL





The indigenously designed missile has certain stealth features and is capable of carrying warheads. PHOTO: ISPR

Pakistan conducted on Wednesday successful test of the indigenously designed Babur Cruise Missile.

“Babur Weapon System version – 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy, at a range of 700kms,” military media wing Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) in a statement.

“It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile, which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.”

*Navy acquires third Fast Attack Missile Craft*

Babur Weapon System, according to the ISPR, will be an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence as it is equipped with navigational technology, enabling it target with accuracy even in the absence of GPS system.

The launch was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Zubair Mahmood Hayat and other senior officers from Strategic Plans Division and Strategic Forces.

*Pakistan’s motto is arms for peace, says Nawaz*

Expressing his complete confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, Gen Zubair said the test had further strengthened country’s deterrence capability.

Meanwhile, President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful missile test.
--------------
Look at that Pic, beautiful


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## DeceptiveEagle

Special Congrats to The great servants of this BelovedLand, 

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD


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## YeBeWarned

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Upgraded Babur.
> All platforms.



So land and Submarine Launched .. we don't have a Air Launch Babur right ? ?


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## Windjammer

In the video i posted in post #15 , you can briefly see the launch platform.
@HRK screen shots will be more informative.


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## Devil Soul

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/809043636482613248

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## Burhan Wani

Windjammer said:


> In the video i posted in post #15 , you can briefly see the launch platform.
> @HRK screen shots will be more informative.


It will be plus if the launching platform was submarine or frigate. Any ways good news.

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## Windjammer



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## maximuswarrior

Starlord said:


> So land and Submarine Launched .. we don't have a Air Launch Babur right ? ?



*Hatf-VIII (Ra'ad)*

It is not a derivative of Babur, but it is ALCM.



Windjammer said:


>



Looking very sweet.

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## 90ArsalanLeo

HAKIKAT said:


> The sea based version from the subs to be rehauled by the Turkish form STM is noteworthy. Hopefully MILGEM will have this provision too...



What is the status of MILGEM when it will begin?


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## I S I

90ArsalanLeo said:


> we dont have submarines capable of firing SLBM or SLCM i hope the new chinese subs can give us that ability


It can be torpedo fired through our Agosta 90Bs

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## Skywalker

Now this I call it a surgical strike and that also in a daylight.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

90ArsalanLeo said:


> What is the status of MILGEM when it will begin?


I have no clue..


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## EpiiC

Maxpane said:


> Why dnt they increase long range missile?


All our missiles are short range....


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## Hassan Guy

Looks like she will be ready to bypass some of those "advanced" air defence systems.


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## I S I

EpiiC said:


> All our missiles are short range....


700KM cruise missile looks short range to you? O bhai kya is pe baith ke US jaana hai kya?

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## Hyde

Amazing news, last week I was thinking its been long time since we tested out any new missile and here it comes the upgraded version of Babur!

Congrats to all my Pakistani fellows and well wishers

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## air marshal

Congrats!


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## 90ArsalanLeo

Starlord said:


> So land and Submarine Launched .. we don't have a Air Launch Babur right ? ?



We have Ra'ad ALCM having 350 km range after this test we have capability to launch CM's from Land, Air & Sea


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## EpiiC

I S I said:


> 700KM cruise missile looks short range to you? O bhai kya is pe baith ke US jaana hai kya?


Can it reach any city in India from pakistan no?


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## Max

Congrats

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## Burhan Wani

90ArsalanLeo said:


> We have Ra'ad ALCM having 350 km range after this test we have capability to launch CM's from Land, Air & Sea


From sea? I think you mistakenly wrote it.


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## Taimoor Khan

How difficult or easy would it be to install this "canister" configuration of babur on our surface naval warship? 


Babur mated with TNW is a deadly combo.


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## Maxpane

EpiiC said:


> All our missiles are short range....


We should increase range


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## -------

Congrats Pakistan, may your friends be secured in the thought of having you beside them and may your enemies think twice about starting any schit

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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154457447052663










Pakistan Test Fires Upgraded Version of Babur Cruise Missile. CJCSC also witness the successful testing.

@Side-Winder @farhan_9909 @Horus @Oscar @HRK

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## Ghazwa e Hind

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Upgraded Babur.
> *All platforms*.


Are you sure? It can be fired by our Naval assets?



Rashid Mahmood said:


> Upgraded Babur.
> *All platforms*.


Are you sure? It can be fired by our Naval assets?


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## Burhan Wani

Taimoor Khan said:


> How difficult or easy would it be to install this "canister" configuration of babur on our surface naval warship?


We hardly mount CIWS on them. I think Babar and Raad will remain land and air launched, there will be another derivative for naval purpose.


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## ghauri05

wasn't babur-2 supposed to be naval platform launched and with greater range???
only thing i can see is that it can hit naval targets too.....but for that it should be supersonic..i hope it is supersonic as babur 1 is subsonic.

btw congratz to Pakistan.

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## Bratva

BABUR 1 - A not Babur 2 with not a single upgrade to engine or Fuel efficient . more like a Shaheen 1 A updates

If you want to know what Enhanced aerodynamics and Avionics means, Follow the upgrades of Tomahawk. Most probably, it can loiter before hitting target, They might have added a datalink into missile , Can fly over the featureless water. Some kind of Sea capability added into TERCOM (TERCOM needs features on land to distinguish where it is going.

Remember the MoDP report Pakistan is creating Anti Ship and Land versions of Missile

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Windjammer said:


> Well that was out of the blue, just received this image.


This is from the older tests.... Here is the latest









Bratva said:


> BABUR 1 - A not Babur 2 with not a single upgrade to engine or Fuel efficient . more like a Shaheen 1 A updates
> 
> If you want to know what Enhanced aerodynamics and Avionics means, Follow the upgrades of Tomahawk. Most probably, it can loiter before hitting target, They might have added a datalink into missile , Can fly over the featureless water. (TERCOM needs features on land to distinguish where it is going.
> 
> Remember the MoDP report Pakistan is creating Anti Ship and Land versions of Missile



Land based was tested months back .. Called it "Zarb" but pics,specs weren't released.

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## ISI-1

Maxpane said:


> Why dnt they increase long range missile?



We have enemies to the East as well as the West...

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## SQ8

Stock footage BTW.

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## Windjammer

Here you go guys.

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## iby32

EpiiC said:


> Can it reach any city in India from pakistan no?


Yes amritsar jhalander kishangar not 700 km away from pakistan border


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## Maxpane

ISI-1 said:


> We have enemies to the East as well as the West...


So we should make long range missiles. thats my point

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## Burhan Wani

Bratva said:


> BABUR 1 - A not Babur 2 with not a single upgrade to engine or Fuel efficient . more like a Shaheen 1 A updates
> 
> If you want to know what Enhanced aerodynamics and Avionics means, Follow the upgrades of Tomahawk. Most probably, it can loiter before hitting target, They might have added a datalink into missile , Can fly over the featureless water. (TERCOM needs features on land to distinguish where it is going.
> 
> Remember the MoDP report Pakistan is creating Anti Ship and Land versions of Missile


True. It look like they have enhanced the previous versions and improve some features.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Starlord said:


> So land and Submarine Launched .. we don't have a Air Launch Babur right ? ?



No we have Raad Air Launched CM.

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## LonE_WolF

Congrats to all those involved in the project. It's one of the best news of this year


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jonah Arthur said:


> True. It look like they have enhanced the previous versions and improve some features.



Rather added some features like attacking sea targets... Seems they changed/tweaked its seeker aswell.

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## Side-Winder

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> This is from the older tests.... Here is the latest
> 
> 
> View attachment 360296



Is this one the latest? Mention source please, i have to upload on FB page.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Side-Winder said:


> Is this one the latest? Mention source please, i have to upload on FB page.


Dawn news .. Posted from a video clip of the test.

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## Bratva

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> This is from the older tests.... Here is the latest
> 
> 
> View attachment 360296
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Land based was tested months back .. Called it "Zarb" but pics,specs weren't released.



Most probably Zarb features being added into Babur Now. Remember Zarb was launched from Land To SEA


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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> In the video i posted in post #15 , you can briefly see the launch platform.
> @HRK screen shots will be more informative.



will see it later but the very first thing I noticed about the test after hearing this news (& off-course visiting the ISPR site)









4 tube version of the launcher ..... will post any other observation after watching video (only if I find it necessary)

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## alwaysfair

Congrats for the successful trial.
And our scientists are busy taking trials of BVR missiles and turning up short and near miss and what not.


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## RealNapster

alwaysfair said:


> And our scientists are busy taking trials of BVR missiles and turning up short and near miss and what not.



It happens .


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## Burhan Wani

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Rather added some features like attacking sea targets... Seems they changed/tweaked its seeker aswell.


I heard there are five cameras used on Babur to back TERCOM navigation. Well it is time to read Toma Hawk cruise missile in detail because detailed analysis of babur is not available any where nor my NESCOM contacts will leak out a tiny information about it. Bastard Desh Baghats. 



Side-Winder said:


> Is this one the latest? Mention source please, i have to upload on FB page.


Still you didn't posted this news on FB. Disgusting.

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## The Deterrent

Bratva said:


> BABUR 1 - A not Babur 2 with not a single upgrade to engine or Fuel efficient . more like a Shaheen 1 A updates
> 
> If you want to know what Enhanced aerodynamics and Avionics means, Follow the upgrades of Tomahawk. Most probably, it can loiter before hitting target, They might have added a datalink into missile , Can fly over the featureless water. (TERCOM needs features on land to distinguish where it is going.
> 
> Remember the MoDP report Pakistan is creating Anti Ship and Land versions of Missile



Not entirely true, so to clarify a bit more:

A. Babur-I version 1: Introduced in 2005, <700km range, Ground-launched, could hit only strategic targets. 
B. Babur-I version 2: Introduced now, 700km range, Ground-launched, can hit conventional targets on land and sea.

C. Babur (probable undesignated variant in development): Ship-launched Babur-I version 2
D. Babur SLCM (rumored designation Babur-II, in development): ~700-1000km range, Submarine-launched.

Babur I version 2 has upgrades to range, avionics, RCS and targeting capabilities.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Ghazwa e Hind said:


> Are you sure? It can be fired by our Naval assets?
> 
> 
> Are you sure? It can be fired by our Naval assets?



Nothing is for sure.

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## Spy Master

Bratva said:


> Most probably Zarb features being added into Babur Now. Remember Zarb was launched from Land To SEA


What is ZARB? :O


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## The Deterrent

Spy Master said:


> What is ZARB? :O


C-602.

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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> will see it later but the very first thing I noticed about the test after hear this news (& off-course visiting the ISPR site)
> 
> View attachment 360299
> View attachment 360300
> 
> 
> 4 tube version of the launcher ..... will post any other observation after watching video (only if I find it necessary)
> 
> View attachment 360301



*An earlier test was also conducted from a 4X Tube launcher.*

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## Burhan Wani

The Deterrent said:


> Not entirely true, so to clarify a bit more:
> 
> A. Babur-I version 1: Introduced in 2005, <700km range, Ground-launched, could hit only strategic targets.
> B. Babur-I version 2: Introduced now, 700km range, Ground-launched, can hit conventional targets on land and sea.
> 
> C. Babur (probable undesignated variant in development): Ship-launched Babur-I version 2
> D. Babur SLCM (rumored designation Babur-II, in development): ~700-1000km range, Submarine-launched.
> 
> Babur I version 2 has upgrades to range, avionics, RCS and targeting capabilities.


True. Can you clarify some doubts.
RCS improvement facility is available in Pakistan? 
When we will see Submarine and ship launched version of Babar?


----------



## I S I

EpiiC said:


> Can it reach any city in India from pakistan no?


Yes it fu*kin can.

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## Side-Winder

So, its not really a Babur-II kind of thing rather Version 2 of the Babur I.



Jonah Arthur said:


> Still you didn't posted this news on FB. Disgusting



Updated it at the earliest, by uploading the video released. 
Talking about the pictures.

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## The Deterrent

Windjammer said:


> *An earlier test was also conducted from a 4X Tube launcher.*


That is the standard 3 tube launcher.

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## EpiiC

I S I said:


> Yes it fu*kin can.


1,705 km Distance from Lahore to Calcutta


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## nadeemkhan110

and It has stealth capabilities, said an official
and Speed is: ‎880 km/h or 550 mph (Mach 0.8)


----------



## Burhan Wani

Side-Winder said:


> So, its not really a Babur-II kind of thing rather Version 2 of the Babur I.
> 
> 
> 
> Updated it at the earliest, by uploading the video released.
> Talking about the pictures.


People really like your FB posts. Buck up.


----------



## The Deterrent

Jonah Arthur said:


> True. Can you clarify some doubts.
> RCS improvement facility is available in Pakistan?
> When we will see Submarine and ship launched version of Babar?


I think you're referring to RCS detection facility. I don't know anything about it.

When they are completely ready.


----------



## Windjammer

Side-Winder said:


> So, its not really a Babur-II kind of thing rather Version 2 of the Babur I.



Rawalpindi - December 14, 2016: 
Pakistan today conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile. *Babur Weapon System version - 2 *incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy, at a range of 700 kilometers

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## EpiiC

I S I said:


> Yes it fu*kin can.


700KM range isn't enough to hit anywhere in India... you just said it can... it can't actually.


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## PurpleButcher

EpiiC said:


> 1,705 km Distance from Lahore to Calcutta



so in order to strike Calcutta, we will just penetrate 1005 km into India and fire

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## Burhan Wani

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Its a stealth Missile


Our teacher say,"There is nothing like stealth only requirement is capable eye". Alas you reminded my best time at university and Radar and Nav aids course work.

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## Side-Winder

Windjammer said:


> Rawalpindi - December 14, 2016:
> Pakistan today conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile. *Babur Weapon System version - 2 *incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy, at a range of 700 kilometers



Yeah i saw that, but it i think @The Deterrent is right in his assessment about it being the second version of Babur I


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## EpiiC

PurpleButcher said:


> so in order to strike Calcutta, we will just penetrate 1005 km into India and fire


LMAO you think Indians going to welcome you with sweets 1000KM deep into their territory ?


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## Burhan Wani

The Deterrent said:


> I think you're referring to RCS detection facility. I don't know anything about it.
> 
> When they are completely ready.


No not RCS detection RCS improvement.
When you decrease RCS of any missile, aircraft, UAV etc you make it more stealth and for it very microwave sophisticated equipment are required. I heard NESOM have it but not 100 percent sure.


----------



## RAO Sword of rajput

Stick to the thread for more news.

Pakistan tested advanced Cruise Missile Babar-II. Missile can hit the targets at land and sea and have a range of 700 kilometers. This missile can work without the help of GPS.

CJCSC also witnessed the missile test.

Allah ho Akbar

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-successfully-tests-babur-2-cruise-missile.466682/#ixzz4SpR5oWja

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## nadeemkhan110

Distance from Islamabad to Delhi: 676 km


----------



## RAO Sword of rajput

*Pakistan on Wednesday conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile, according to the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR).*

The ISPR said that Babur Weapon System version – 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy at a range of 700 kilometers.

It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.

Equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation. Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence.

Today’s launch was witnessed by the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.

The CJCSC congratulated the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of great value and significance. He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed to the success of this launch.

Expressing his full confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, CJCSC stated that this test further strengthens Pakistan’s Deterrence Capability.

President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif have congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful conduct of today’s missile test.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-successfully-tests-babur-2-cruise-missile.466682/#ixzz4SpSCNIlh


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## Bratva

Spy Master said:


> What is ZARB? :O



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarb_missile


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## EpiiC

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Distance from Islamabad to Delhi: 676 km


From Lahore area and Karachi area we can launch and hit very important places... Mumbai and Delhi which are of the richest cities in IND-PAK region we can hit them


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## I S I

EpiiC said:


> 1,705 km Distance from Lahore to Calcutta


So we only have to target Calcutta to conquer India?


----------



## Basel

Mrc said:


> I think "hitting targets at land and sea" has huge implications also



Big thing is that now it can hit targets at Sea and have range of 700km means long range AShM capability.

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## Bratva

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Distance from Islamabad to Delhi: 676 km



If Babur has to follow this path, Indian Interception rate would be above 80 percent. Their low level coverage and SAM radar coupled with AWAC can easily detect Babur on this Path.

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## Basel

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Congrats to all.
> *Sea targets* is worth noticing....



It means 700 km long range AShM capability?

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## EpiiC

I S I said:


> So we only have to target Calcutta to conquer India?


No I know we can target Delhi/Mumbai which makes $500B of India GDP....


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## Windjammer



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## nadeemkhan110

Bratva said:


> If Babur has to follow this path, Indian Interception rate would be above 80 percent. Their low level coverage and SAM radar coupled with AWAC can easily detect Babur on this Path.


Distance from Nagarparkar to Mumbai: 627 km

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## Basel

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Upgraded Babur.
> All platforms.



Will it be new long range coastal defense system?? Or it will be used to to nuke IN CBG??


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## Ultima Thule

EpiiC said:


> No I know we can target Delhi/Mumbai which makes $500B of India GDP....


but we have ballistic missiles to cover whole India bro

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> *An earlier test was also conducted from a 4X Tube launcher.*



no .....



> *No PR256/2011-ISPR *
> 
> Dated: *October 28, 2011*
> 
> A special feature of today’s launch was the validation of a new multi tube Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV) during the test. The three tube MLV enhances manifold the targeting and deployment options in the conventional and nuclear modes. With its shoot-and-scoot capability, the MLV provides a major force multiplier effect for target employment and survivability.
> 
> The three tube MLV enhances manifold the targeting and deployment options in the conventional and nuclear modes. With its shoot-and-scoot capability, the MLV provides a major force multiplier effect for target employment and survivability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o=t-press_release&id=1889&search=1



but now I am having a feeling that today's test is also conducted from 3 tube MLV as the video released for today's test showed another angle of launch vehicle for a fraction of second .....






but pic at ISPR site form a different angle give different impression 






https://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/image_viewer.asp?o=../archive_images/8544.jpg&full_path=1

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## Taimoor Khan

They need to release the footage from launch to the impact with loaded munition. The visuals are very potent to lower the moral of the enemy nations.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Basel said:


> Will it be new long range coastal defense system?? Or it will be used to to nuke IN CBG??



The second option looks pretty attractive...

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## singlefighter

Ottoman123 said:


> Congrats to my Pakistani brothers & sisters!



Khair Mubarak to you turk brother


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## ghazi52

*ISPR Official
*
Pakistan today conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile. Babur Weapon System version - 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy, at a range of 700 kilometers. It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile, which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.Equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation. Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence. 
Today’s launch was witnessed by Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations. Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee congratulated the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of great value and significance. He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed to the success of this launch.Expressing his full confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, CJCSC stated that this test further strengthens Pakistan’s Deterrence Capability. The President and the Prime Minister of Pakistan have congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful conduct of today’s missile test.






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1344032285627374

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## Basel

EpiiC said:


> 700KM range isn't enough to hit anywhere in India... you just said it can... it can't actually.



it's primary role is to take out heavily defended targets like air bases and other important installations. It allow deep strike capability to Pakistan with out putting it's personals in harms way.

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## iLION12345_1

Congrats to the SPD, And to the guys talking about its " low " range , this isn't the only missile we have , ( Shaheen 3 , 2750 km range , nuff said ), it has different purposes then the shaheen or Ghauri missiles.


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## Windjammer

Taimoor Khan said:


> They need to release the footage from launch to the impact with loaded munition. The visuals are very potent to lower the moral of the enemy nations.




I have personally seen air to air footage captured from a chase aircraft right up to the impact on target, but for some reason it's kept confidential. Even in today's test one can see the missile in mid-flight .

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## Basel

nadeemkhan110 said:


> Distance from Islamabad to Delhi: 676 km



It will be used with way point navigation to avoid obstacles.


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## Awan68

EpiiC said:


> Can it reach any city in India from pakistan no?


U r bieng funny right??, cause no one's this stupid..

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## uzbi aka viper

i think range of babur has something to do with (mtcr=missile technology control regime) as in case of brahmos.


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## Attila the Hun

singlefighter said:


> Khair Mubarak to you turk brother


Turkish or Pakistani hamesha ky liye dost hain . Lambi zindagi geo hamry bhaion ..

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## Jinn Baba

Guys are there any pics/vids evidencing the terrain hugging features? Because all the videos I've seen show the missile flying at hundreds of metres


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## Chhatrapati

Congrats guys on successful testing..

The thread goes on with typical BS of empty Nuke threats.

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## Awan68

EpiiC said:


> Can it reach any city in India from pakistan no?


U r bieng funny


EpiiC said:


> 700KM range isn't enough to hit anywhere in India... you just said it can... it can't actually.


Its not meant to take out cities, war are not fought by striking cities, it can clear up border defences, indian assets deep inside indian territory, it can strike frigates or destroyers at sea wuth malintent, it can atrike bases etc, for reaching cities we have other assets, everything is designed for a different purpose thickhead...

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## Taimoor Khan

Windjammer said:


> I have personally seen air to air footage captured from a chase aircraft right up to the impact on target, but for some reason it's kept confidential. Even in today's test one can see the missile in mid-flight .



They need to release something like this:







Break the enemy will to fight.

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## vizier

Good news friends and one step closer to nuclear triad and now have an enhanced land based second strike capability.

Range is possibly confidential since it is a huge factor and covering more parts of India would be a priority not only for nuclear but for conventional scenarios to target far airbases but for political reasons classifying the range is understandable I think. Also conformal fuel tanks can be added to the airframe like Chinese and Russian cruise missiles giving it more range.

Also what about further reducing rcs of the cruise missile by stealth paint. It wears off but by using tube storage and launch the paint can stay longer in my opinion. 
http://www.popsci.com/technology/ar...urns-any-aircraft-radar-evading-stealth-plane

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## Windjammer

Taimoor Khan said:


> They need to release something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Break the enemy will to fight.



Something like this will really drive the message home.

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## hussain0216

SOUTHie said:


> Congrats guys on successful testing..
> 
> The thread goes on with typical BS of empty Nuke threats.



Why you congratulating us? its aimed at your hindu Rashtra

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## JamD

This is just speculation on my part but I think the entire point of this test was to validate a mode where the babur operates entirely without using any GPS/Beidou signals. I do not think Babur could do this reliably before.

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## I S I

Ottoman123 said:


> Turkish or Pakistani hamesha ky liye dost hain . Lambi zindagi geo hamry bhaion ..


How the F did you write in urdu? What kind of sorcery is this?

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## Windjammer

hussain0216 said:


> Why you congratulating us? its aimed at your hindu Rashtra



Because he knows it will save them all the firewood.

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## JamD

Also someone could check any NOTAMs issued by the navy to see whether it flew over the sea. While doing that keep in mind tests are not announced the day they are conducted many times.


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## Attila the Hun

I S I said:


> How the F did you write in urdu? What kind of sorcery is this?


That's not Urdu, that was in Turkish!!

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## Kompromat

I'm waiting for a confirmation of anti shipping capabilities. If it's true, we just built a superweapon.

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## Parwez Khuri

Congratulations to all my Pakistanis fellows. Scientists have made You all proud. Great job, keep it up.

again Kudos Friends!

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## Rashid Mahmood

Horus said:


> I'm waiting for a confirmation of anti shipping capabilities. If it's true, we just built a superweapon.



That confirmation won't come.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Targets at sea!

This truly game changer.

One more shield in the defence...making war of aggression against Pak nearly impossible.

Targets at sea...meaning... all the numbers' weakness that PNS is suffering from gets a major boost.

Who is going to enter 1000 km into Pak Waters???

Let us just make sick hegemon's war of agression impossible.

Keep going Pak. Now sub and ships based long range assets, please. 

Afro-Asian Ocean needs to be free from any hegemon claiming it his private lake.

Well done!!!! Keep making war impossible....

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## Windjammer

Horus said:


> I'm waiting for a confirmation of anti shipping capabilities. If it's true, we just built a superweapon.





Rashid Mahmood said:


> That confirmation won't come.



That confirmation holds in the antenna in the nose section not present in previous versions.

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## The Deterrent

Jonah Arthur said:


> No not RCS detection RCS improvement.
> When you decrease RCS of any missile, aircraft, UAV etc you make it more stealth and for it very microwave sophisticated equipment are required. I heard NESOM have it but not 100 percent sure.


Oh okay, I understand. Well I believe I do not have any credible information about it.

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## Kompromat

If its really true, we have just reversed Indian naval advantage by a great deal. 



Windjammer said:


> That confirmation holds in the antenna in the nose section not present in previous versions.

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## The Deterrent

Horus said:


> If its really true, we have just reversed Indian naval advantage by a great deal.


Shouldn't really blow it out of proportions. If we were really that close to a reliable coastal AShM, we wouldn't have rushed in the C-602 aka Zarb. It will take a few years before the seeker tech + navigation over sea is matured.


JamD said:


> Also someone could check any NOTAMs issued by the navy to see whether it flew over the sea. While doing that keep in mind tests are not announced the day they are conducted many times.


Nope, it didn't. No navigational/coastal warnings were issued. Seems like the entire flight was over land, which is not bad considering it was the first test of this system.

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## Kompromat

So we ARE working in that direction? 



The Deterrent said:


> Shouldn't really blow it out of proportions. If we were really that close to a reliable coastal AShM, we wouldn't have rushed in the C-602 aka Zarb. It will take a few years before the seeker tech + navigation over sea is matured.
> 
> Nope, it didn't. No navigational/coastal warnings were issued. Seems like the entire flight was over land, which is not bad considering it was the first test of this system.

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## The Deterrent

Horus said:


> So we ARE working in that direction?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

The Deterrent said:


> Shouldn't really blow it out of proportions. If we were really that close to a reliable coastal AShM, we wouldn't have rushed in the C-602 aka Zarb. It will take a few years before the *seeker tech + navigation over sea is matured*.


May be Pakistan did rush the C- 602 because it would be giving some other advantages over localised missile technology or it also provided a learning curve towards the bold part of your post.


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## SQ8

Anti Ship is not the main focus here. Long range Land strikes are and as such the update is for allowing better terrain following and terminal evasive actions. 

Ship board is in limbo until a suitable VLS equipped vessel is procured from China.

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## Khafee

@Penguin At the peril of your credibility, maybe now would be a good idea to start trusting men in uniform.



Horus said:


> I'm waiting for a confirmation of anti shipping capabilities. If it's true, we just built a superweapon.



IF I were you, I'd go out and celebrate, instead of waiting for confirmation, heard you are a steak lover as well.

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## Penguin

Khafee said:


> @Penguin At the peril of your credibility, maybe now would be a good idea to start trusting men in uniform.


I've read this page and the first page of the thread only. I don't get your remark about my credibility: I've never said anything against Babur, nor have I doubted its existence and development. I have mentioned, however, that I hadn't seen anything documented on an actual launch by a submerged submarine. Are you saying that somewhere in page 2 through 10 is convincing material to suggest/confirm that this missile has been launched from a submerged submarine? If so, please point me to it, because I would find that highly interesting.

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## Khafee

Penguin said:


> I've read this page and the first page of the thread only. I don't get your remark about my credibility: I've never said anything against Babur, nbor have I doubted its existence and development. I have mentioned, however, that I hadn't seen anything documented on an actual launch by a submerged submarine. Are you saying that somewhere in page 2 through 10 is convincing material to suggest/confirm that this missile has been launched from a submerged submarine? If so, please point me to it, because I would find that highly interesting.


Go through this thread and then tell me you honestly believe that Babur SLCM does not exist. 

As to your statement about "*seeing anything documented,*" I wouldn't hold my breath. The Press Release today , is not giving the full story either.

Have a good evening!

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## Penguin

Bratva said:


> BABUR 1 - A not Babur 2 with not a single upgrade to engine or Fuel efficient . more like a Shaheen 1 A updates
> 
> If you want to know what Enhanced aerodynamics and Avionics means, Follow the upgrades of Tomahawk. Most probably, it can loiter before hitting target, They might have added a datalink into missile , Can fly over the featureless water. Some kind of Sea capability added into TERCOM (TERCOM needs features on land to distinguish where it is going.
> 
> Remember the MoDP report Pakistan is creating Anti Ship and Land versions of Missile


Inertial navigation plus datalink may be good enough to bring the missile near a sea target. This suffices for a nuke warhead. However, you'ld still need some form of autonomous terminal guidance (IRH, RFH, Radar) for the end run, I would think, if you aim to hit an individual ship.



I S I said:


> It can be torpedo fired through our Agosta 90Bs


If diameter is small enough and if there is some form of encapsulated launch.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Oscar said:


> Anti Ship is not the main focus here. Long range Land strikes are and as such the update is for allowing better terrain following and terminal evasive actions.
> 
> Ship board is in limbo until a suitable VLS equipped vessel is procured from China.



Bro .. MODP 2015 refers to an anti ship missile under development and to be active by 2017.... What is that? A Babur variant or a new system ?


----------



## Penguin

Khafee said:


> Go through this thread and then tell me you honestly believe that Babur SLCM does not exist.
> 
> As to your statement about "*seeing anything documented,*" I wouldn't hold my breath. The Press Release today , is not giving the full story either.
> 
> Have a good evening!


I have done that. All I'm seeing is ' land and sea targets', which is not surprising (but I don't see anything about guidance towards moving sea targets. Nuking a task group only requires good INS and a datalink to get the missile 'close enough', hitting individual ships however requires some form of terminal stage guidance in addition to INS and datalink). I see in the thread 1 person saying 'all platforms'. IF that includes submarines, then I will believe it when I see imagery or an official statement to this extent. No sooner. I'm a patient man, I'll wait.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Penguin said:


> Inertial navigation plus datalink may be good enough to bring the missile near a sea target. However, you'ld still need some form of autonomous terminal guidance (IRH, RFH, Radar) for the end run, I would think.
> 
> 
> If diameter is small enough and if there is some form of encapsulated launch.




@Khafee. @Oscar

Ship borne Land Attack missile and Anti ship missile by 2018





https://defence.pk/threads/ministry-of-defence-production-year-book-2014-2015.442534/


New variants or new missile systems.

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## Penguin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @Khafee. @Oscar
> 
> Ship borne Land Attack missile and Anti ship missile by 2017:
> View attachment 360336
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/ministry-of-defence-production-year-book-2014-2015.442534/
> 
> 
> New variants or new missile systems.


That does suggest two different front ends, with a common 'rear end', much like Tomahawk





Rather than a dual mission (land/sea) front end.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Babur previous test -







New variant test;







Older canister :








The new ones launcher/canister also looks different.

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## Khafee

Well those who bleed green, might be interested to know that the second version of Babur which reached IOC " a couple of years +/- ago" was SLCM. 

This was the second version, after Babur Surface to Surface CM. 

*Note:* Those who bleed any other color except green, please ignore this post.

Thank You!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Windjammer said:


> That confirmation holds in the antenna in the nose section not present in previous versions.



Older design ;







New version

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## Khafee

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Babur previous test -
> 
> View attachment 360338
> 
> 
> 
> New variant test;
> 
> View attachment 360337
> 
> 
> 
> Older canister :
> 
> View attachment 360339
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new ones launcher/canister also looks different.


The diameter has decreased as well.

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## YeBeWarned

Oscar said:


> Ship board is in limbo until a suitable VLS equipped vessel is procured from *China*.



Why China ?? and Why just CHINA ? any Chance for Turkish Milgem Class Frigate ?



Khafee said:


> The diameter has decreased as well.



And Mysterious Nose antenna @Windjammer Pointed out ..


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Penguin said:


> That does suggest two different front ends, with a common 'rear end', much like Tomahawk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than a dual mission (land/sea) front end.




And wouldn't that mean it's capable of "anti ship" missions ... Because that's what the MODP 2014-15 report officially suggests...

And considering the new Babur II test claims anti sea capability.... I'd suppose this is the system the report mentions ? To be operational by 2018.

While the Sub Launched version would be ready by the time Pak gets the new subs.. 2020-22 deadline.

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## YeBeWarned

Khafee said:


> Well those who bleed green, might be interested to know that the second version of Babur which reached IOC " a couple of years +/- ago" was SLCM.
> 
> This was the second version, after Babur Surface to Surface CM.
> 
> *Note:* Those who bleed any other color except green, please ignore this post.
> 
> Thank You!



Last time i cut my finger during the making of Indigenous Biryani at my house, my blood is still red  ( hope that does not make me a Communist  ) but i can use some Green Paint  but i do know that what you are saying is 98% true


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## Khafee

Starlord said:


> And Mysterious Nose antenna @Windjammer Pointed out ..


I think what Windy bhai is hinting at is a new seeker.

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## YeBeWarned

Khafee said:


> I think what Windy bhai is hinting at is a new seeker.



Most likely , looking at the illustration in post #166 which is of Tomahawk Missile which is the Hypothetical Father of our Babur one can easily see it can be a new Seeker/guidance system ..but lets give the Credit to Windy bhai for having a sharp Eyes


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## SQ8

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @Khafee. @Oscar
> 
> Ship borne Land Attack missile and Anti ship missile by 2018
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/ministry-of-defence-production-year-book-2014-2015.442534/
> 
> 
> New variants or new missile systems.


Land attack wont be practical until VLS, unless they try what they tried with Nodong in 90's. 
Basically, put it on the helipad. A crude approach that might work but not very effective nor secure.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Oscar said:


> Land attack wont be practical until VLS, unless they try what they tried with Nodong in 90's.
> Basically, put it on the helipad. A crude approach that might work but not very effective nor secure.


So maybe they are after all looking for VLS capable ships ? You being an insider would know about it more than us miserable souls.


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## SQ8

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 360345


This image is from stock video of earlier operational variant and not the new system.

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## Penguin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And wouldn't that mean it's capable of "anti ship" missions ... Because that's what the MODP 2014-15 report officially suggests...
> 
> And considering the new Babur II test claims anti sea capability.... I'd suppose this is the system the report mentions ? To be operational by 2018.
> 
> While the Sub Launched version would be ready by the time Pak gets the new subs.. 2020-22 deadline.


It would, because then you would have an antiship specific guidance package. As opposed to a missile that relies on INS, TERCOM and DSMAC that initital page one articles referred to, which is primarily useful for are land attack. As indicated, a nuke warhead with good INS and datalink may be brought close enough to an area sea target, but is unlikely able to pinpoint a single ship. 

If a sublaunched version - whether land attack or antiship or both - will be ready for the new subs, then IMHO that means that at this point current submarines likely do not have the ability to fire Babur while submerged.


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## Tipu7

I believe the physical dimensions of Missile is same as before, range/payload/speed/size is same the thing which is updated is guidance system. From INS - GPS based system to TERCOM - DSMAC is big leap as this tech will be followed in other available options too. New Missile has achieved new levels in accuracy, stealth, trajectory flexibility & counter EW capabilities.


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## SQ8

Starlord said:


> Why China ?? and Why just CHINA ? any Chance for Turkish Milgem Class Frigate ?
> 
> 
> 
> And Mysterious Nose antenna @Windjammer Pointed out ..


Because no one else will build you a VLS container that you need at the costs you want.

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## Khafee

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And wouldn't that mean it's capable of "anti ship" missions ... Because that's what the MODP 2014-15 report officially suggests...
> 
> And considering the new Babur II test claims anti sea capability.... I'd suppose this is the system the report mentions ? To be operational by 2018.
> 
> While the Sub Launched version would be ready by the time Pak gets the new subs.. 2020-22 deadline.



A slimmer dia would indicate that the Babur SLCM and the AShM have a lot in common, also indicating that it can be launched from current 533mm tubes.

Anti Sea Capabilities = what? Fishing? Poondi? obviously AShM.

Pakistani's today you finally gave the world a glimpse of what Babur is up to. Congratulations!

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## SQ8

Penguin said:


> It would, because then you would have an antiship specific guidance package. As opposed to a missile that relies on INS, TERCOM and DSMAC that initital page one articles referred to, which is primarily useful for are land attack. As indicated, a nuke warhead with good INS and datalink may be brought close enough to an area sea target, but is unlikely able to pinpoint a single ship.
> 
> If a sublaunched version - whether land attack or antiship or both - will be ready for the new subs, then IMHO that means that at this point current submarines likely do not have the ability to fire Babur while submerged.


The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.

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## war&peace

For all the kiddos who are confused about the range and role of this missile, This is a cruise missile. It is used for precision strike to take out high value targets with pin-point accuracy. A cruise missile is quite expensive due to very advanced systems since it flies like an airplane for the most part of its flight thus it has turbojet engine in it and flight systems that allow it fly low, thus it can avoid detection from enemy radars and also change course in case of obstacles. It can fly above or around the obstacles depending on the algorithms fed into its flight computer.
And as being speculated that this is a naval version of Babur Cruise missile, so it will be used for taking about enemy ships especially the heaviest ones like ACC at a range of 700-km so it means that it can target the moving targets thus it has to be linked to some satellite navigation system

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> The current subs* arent *meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.


"Weren't" would be the right word. Thats why the 90B's upgrades include a lot more than just the AIP module.



war&peace said:


> For all the kiddos who are confused about the range and role of this missile, This is a cruise missile. It is used to precision strike to take out high value targets with pin-point accuracy. A cruise missile is quite expensive due to very advanced systems since it flies like an airplane for the most part of the of its flight thus it was turbojet engine in it and flight systems that allow it fly low, thus avoid detection by enemy radar and also change course in case of obstacles. It can fly above or around the obstacles depending on the algorithms fed into its flight computer.
> And as being speculated that this a naval version of Babur Cruise missile, so it will be used for taking about enemy ships especially the heaviest ones like ACC at a range of 700-km but that means it can target the moving targets.



I wouldn't go with the 700Km range.

In my years of service, I have yet to see a missile manufacturer declare the correct range of a missile, on marketing material / press releases.

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## Penguin

Oscar said:


> The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.


Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.


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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> Because no one else will build you a VLS container that you need at the costs you want.


Nor will anyone give you access to real time sat feed, just as an e.g.

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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> "Weren't" would be the right word. Thats why the 90B's upgrades include a lot more than just the AIP module.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't go with the 700Km range.
> 
> In my years of service, I have yet to see a missile manufacturer declare the correct range of a missile, on marketing material / press releases.


That's the declared range but actual range can differ and above sea it is slightly different and it is customary to specify in nautical miles which implies. Turbine engine technology is one area that needs a lot of R&D once Pakistan is able to develop more powerful engine, the range will be increased.

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## shah1398

The Eagle said:


> News coming through ISPR officials.
> 
> Pakistan has successfully tests Babur 2 Cruise Missile newer version with 700 KM range. advance aerodynamic, avionics, today.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/809032383861235719
> 
> @Side-Winder @farhan_9909 @Horus @Oscar @HRK



And that tracking from air was suppposedly through a Mirage DP I guess. Nonetheless I really doubt that they had set the range of Babur as 700 km only. Now if it can hit targets even in sea then its enough to give an idea of range further enhanced than reported 700 km. Like I keep on saying that I just love the way people out there keep things secret. In short seedhi baat and no bakwas.

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## Khafee

war&peace said:


> That's the declared range but actual range can differ and above sea it is slightly different and it is customary to specify in nautical miles which implies. Turbine engine technology is one area that needs a lot of R&D once Pakistan is able to develop more powerful engine, the range will be increased.



I wouldn't go with 700NM, just yet, unless there is some sort of confirmation. But yes the range is definitely more than 700km. 

Not only engine tech, but fuel tech as well.

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## Dazzler

SOUTHie said:


> Congrats guys on successful testing..
> 
> The thread goes on with typical BS of empty Nuke threats.



You want the BS threats to become a reality?

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## Khafee

Dazzler said:


> You want the BS threats to become a reality?


Ignore him. He is just having trouble digesting this wonderful news.

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## SQ8

Penguin said:


> Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.


Quite frankly, the second strike capability is essentially of deterrent value anyway. As long as the ability exists to even get a single 100kt nuke on a target. It serves its purpose. 

To quote an old propaganda movie on US SAC; SAC exists to ensure peace, its greatest focus to make sure war never breaks out in the first place.

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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> Nor will anyone give you access to real time sat feed, just as an e.g.


except China 



Khafee said:


> I wouldn't go with 700NM, just yet, unless there is some sort of confirmation. But yes the range is definitely more than 700km.
> 
> Not only engine tech, but fuel tech as well.


SIr jee I didn't say it is 700 nm either..what I was saying it is textbook practice and in case Babur 700km = 377.97 nm. 
but yeah the undeclared range is different

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## YeBeWarned

Oscar said:


> Because no one else will build you a VLS container that you need at the costs you want.



Bhai one Stupid question .. Babur is been launched from Container launchers, 3 and 4 tube Launchers , so is there any way that we can make them fit in Ships ? sorry for the stupid Question

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## SQ8

Starlord said:


> Bhai one Stupid question .. Babur is been launched from Container launchers, 3 and 4 tube Launchers , so is there any way that we can make them fit in Ships ? sorry for the stupid Question


Ships arent made of lego. So we need to have actual space available on ships to fit them. The current F-22Ps in theory can carry a Babur launcher where the Helipad is but then that location is lost to a helicopter.

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## razgriz19

war&peace said:


> That's the declared range but actual range can differ and above sea it is slightly different and it is customary to specify in nautical miles which implies. Turbine engine technology is one area that needs a lot of R&D once Pakistan is able to develop more powerful engine, the range will be increased.



Pretty sure we don't make turbojet engines. They import it from other countries


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## YeBeWarned

Oscar said:


> Ships arent made of lego. So we need to have actual space available on ships to fit them. The current F-22Ps in theory can carry a Babur launcher where the Helipad is but then that location is lost to a helicopter.



So the VLS systems are somewhat similar to the Launchers we see used for launching Baburs right .. and i agree that from the looks of F-22P's i doubt the VLS can be fitted in front and back side is reserved for Heli pad ..but in Milgem class there is space for a VLS i think a Turkish member posted a Layout .. PN can look for it unless the Cash is the issue


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## The SC

I S I said:


> Hmm, so range is same.
> This must be Super Sonic version then.
> 
> Hope the sea version is Submarine fire tested.


They can be launched from land and air, no mention of sea launch..yet..


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## Khanate

Every time I see the red and white colour scheme, it reminds me of:


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## The SC

Starlord said:


> So land and Submarine Launched .. we don't have a Air Launch Babur right ? ?


Air and land launched..


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## Khanate

The SC said:


> Air and land launched..




Wouldn't that be Ra'ad ACLM?


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## DJ_Viper

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Congrats to all.
> *Sea targets* is worth noticing....



I am sure its being noticed alright . In addition to the "sea targets", the main component of that is the Digital Area matching system, aka, Satellite pictures of sea assets fed into this system, and it can hunt it down in the ocean on its own like 430 miles out (700 KMs). Even if the GPS system was taken out. This range covers the entire EEZ of Pakistan and on the otherwise, all the way to the Indian ports. So this can directly be sent to Indian ports to take out any Indian naval units, way before they can even enter the Pakistani waters. This is pretty big news for Pakistan in terms of strategic threat perception and neutralization.

That's pretty advance and makes this system on par with a few most advanced systems in the world.

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## The SC

Khanate said:


> Wouldn't that be Ra'ad ACLM?


No, they were talking about the Babur..sea launch is almost a certainty in the near future..



Penguin said:


> That does suggest two different front ends, with a common 'rear end', much like Tomahawk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than a dual mission (land/sea) front end.


That is why they call it Babur 2...it has both configurations now, antiship and land attack..


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## Zarvan

Can any one tell How big VLS system is need in ships to fit this missile on them ? I am asking because many say the VLS systems which often carry Air Defence Missiles can't carry cruise missiles. So How much bigger VLS is needed to fit this Babur ?

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## AUz

Oscar said:


> Quite frankly, the second strike capability is essentially of deterrent value anyway. As long as the ability exists to even get a single 100kt nuke on a target. It serves its purpose.
> 
> To quote an old propaganda movie on US SAC; SAC exists to ensure peace, its greatest focus to make sure war never breaks out in the first place.



Do Pakistan have warheads that go into territory of 100kt, 200kt etc etc?

Offcourse you wouldn't know but what's your _hinge_? I thought we can't produce more than 20kt because indians said so

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## PDF

How can a cruise missile hit target without GPS(or similar system) help especially at sea?


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## Kaniska

Pakistan can also use this missile technology for space programs. It will be a very good value add and create more jobs for your scientists and space research area.


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## SQ8

AUz said:


> Do Pakistan have warheads that go into territory of 100kt, 200kt etc etc?
> 
> Offcourse you wouldn't know but what's your _hinge_? I thought we can't produce more than 20kt because indians said so


Pakistan has warheads geared to effectively create large scale damage on any Indian target.
These warheads have no insecurity issues with what Indians say about them.

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## alwaysfair

This one uses satellite imagery taken before and follows a set path comparing the contours and features onboard to the real time . Needs good processing .
At sea i have no idea as the target will be moving.

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## The SC

DJ_Viper said:


> I am sure its being noticed alright . In addition to the "sea targets", the main component of that is the Digital Area matching system, aka, Satellite pictures of sea assets fed into this system, and it can hunt it down in the ocean on its own like 430 miles out (700 KMs). Even if the GPS system was taken out. This range covers the entire EEZ of Pakistan and on the otherwise, all the way to the Indian ports. So this can directly be sent to Indian ports to take out any Indian naval units, way before they can even enter the Pakistani waters. This is pretty big news for Pakistan in terms of strategic threat perception and neutralization.
> 
> That's pretty advance and makes this system on par with a few most advanced systems in the world.


What about moving targets?
It will; work against a blockade though..when enemy ships are almost stationary..


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## DJ_Viper

The SC said:


> What about moving targets?
> It will; work against a blockade though..when enemy ships are almost stationary..



Sir, ships are a moving target.... when they say "sea targets", they aren't referring to parked vessels

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## The SC

DJ_Viper said:


> Sir, ships are a moving target.... when they say "sea targets", they aren't referring to parked vessels


I was answering your post. I hope you did read it!
"the main component of that is the Digital Area matching system, aka, Satellite pictures of sea assets fed into this system, and it can hunt it down in the ocean on its own like 430 miles out (700 KMs). Even if the GPS system was taken out. This range covers the entire EEZ of Pakistan and on the otherwise, all the way to the Indian ports"
Do you mean they will hit the ports? because hitting an individual ship you need a homing device..


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## Fenrir

Zarvan said:


> Can any one tell How big VLS system is need in ships to fit this missile on them ?



Babur is the size of Tomahawk. Tomahawk only fits in the deepest MK41 cells.







Therefore, Babur would need a VLS of similar size.






Another option is to keep a system similar to the current Babur tel. Tomahawk used to be packed onto ships in armored box launchers, like were found on the reactivated Iowa class battleships.











They're pretty big, so as @Oscar notes, space on the helipad would need to be allocated to fit such a launcher.

Since your ships are too small for the VLS farm of the Burkes or similar sized ships, a smaller 8 or 16 cell, like is found on the Nansen class frigates might be an option. Perhaps not right behind the gun, maybe somewhere on either side of the superstructure, but it's doable regardless.






Something like the MK48 Mod 0 which can be placed where there is space.








alwaysfair said:


> At sea i have no idea as the target will be moving.



They'd have to use a form of TERCOM called Automatic Target Recognition. Like TERCOM, the missile is loaded with the known profiles of ships and automatically ids, tracks and attacks the ship based on data it stores inside and matches. These profiles can be radar signatures, IR, electromagnetic, acoustic or any other profile type. It requires major processing power and for the missile and operating nation to know the signatures of the ships it's trying to attack, but it can id, track and target ships in real-time, where as TERCOM is most suited for targeting static targets like runways or bunkers

Modern missiles like LRASM and NSM use this type of guidance. GPS gets you to an area. ATR, IR or active radar homing get you to a specific ship.











Satellite cuing has been used for real-time targeting too. A2A engagements using satellite tracking and guidance of AIM-120 and AIM-9 have taken place as an augment to radar or IR guidance, which are easier to fool or jam then satellites.

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## ISI-1

Maxpane said:


> So we should make long range missiles. thats my point



Alhumdulillah, Paak already has capability and technology, inappropriate to disclose any information at this point. InshaALLAH, when the time is right, all will be divulged.

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## Aasimkhan

Windjammer said:


> Here you go guys.


Can it sink their aircraft carrier?

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## Khanate

The SC said:


> No, they were talking about the Babur..sea launch is almost a certainty in the near future..




I thought you said Babur has an air launched version?


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## DJ_Viper

The SC said:


> I was answering your post. I hope you did read it!
> "the main component of that is the Digital Area matching system, aka, Satellite pictures of sea assets fed into this system, and it can hunt it down in the ocean on its own like 430 miles out (700 KMs). Even if the GPS system was taken out. This range covers the entire EEZ of Pakistan and on the otherwise, all the way to the Indian ports"
> Do you mean they will hit the ports? because hitting an individual ship you need a homing device..



Sir, its a projectile, what's fed into it, whether moving or stationary, it will try to do its job and will take it out. Unless the target's defensive systems identify this thing coming and will try to take it out first. But the digital matching really means that if you fed it a recent image of the target and it is intelligent enough to understand dimensions, colors, weights, layout, etc, and when it reaches the target area, if there are multiple objects, it will try to match the one in its memory and will only hit that one. 

Let's say you fire this on a destroyer and the destroyer is either parked or moving with 6 frigates next to it. This system upon reaching the area will match the picture with the real objects (things I mentioned earlier, aka, the intelligence), and will take the destroyer out, not worrying about the frigates. Thanks


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## alwaysfair

Technogainist bhaiya , understood what you are saying . Missile has to reach general area of the ship through gps and then the short range methods are used for individual ship recognition. And Pakistan has developed this level of sophisticated tech ? Ok.


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## Aasimkhan

Windjammer said:


> I have personally seen air to air footage captured from a chase aircraft right up to the impact on target, but for some reason it's kept confidential. Even in today's test one can see the missile in mid-flight .


Terminal and impact phase reveals many classified information that is why it is not released normally, I remember when us launched B2 bomber photographers were not allowed to capture pictures of its rear to hide the details of thrust vectoring exhaust nozzles



Horus said:


> I'm waiting for a confirmation of anti shipping capabilities. If it's true, we just built a superweapon.


If it is true then we just built a safety wall of 700 km around our sea shore, indian surface ships will not risk coming within 700 km range, however submarines are a different ball game

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## graphican

Aasimkhan said:


> Terminal and impact phase reveals many classified information that is why it is not released normally, I remember when us launched B2 bomber photographers were not allowed to capture pictures of its rear to hide the details of thrust vectoring exhaust nozzles
> 
> 
> If it is true then we just built a safety wall of 700 km around our sea shore, indian surface ships will not risk coming within 700 km range, however submarines are a different ball game



India had sent their submarine into Pakistani waters and had it shunned out. With China in Arabian Sea, there will be even more anti-submarine radars in place to take care of underwater vehicles.

CPEC has changed situation of Arabian Sea remarkably.. instead of Pakistan, India would be worried about Chinese presence in its waters.

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## Aasimkhan

graphican said:


> India had sent their submarine into Pakistani waters and had it shunned out. With China in Arabian Sea, there will be even more anti-submarine radars in place to take care of underwater vehicles.
> 
> CPEC has changed situation of Arabian Sea remarkably.. instead of Pakistan, India would be worried about Chinese presence in its waters.


May be we can lay an underwater chain of listening dwvices and passive sonars to monitor movement of indian subs in our waters

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## The SC

DJ_Viper said:


> Sir, its a projectile, what's fed into it, whether moving or stationary, it will try to do its job and will take it out. Unless the target's defensive systems identify this thing coming and will try to take it out first. But the digital matching really means that if you fed it a recent image of the target and it is intelligent enough to understand dimensions, colors, weights, layout, etc, and when it reaches the target area, if there are multiple objects, it will try to match the one in its memory and will only hit that one.
> 
> Let's say you fire this on a destroyer and the destroyer is either parked or moving with 6 frigates next to it. This system upon reaching the area will match the picture with the real objects (things I mentioned earlier, aka, the intelligence), and will take the destroyer out, not worrying about the frigates. Thanks


It is possible with live feed for a moving target, at least at the final stage.., we are not talking about stationary targets, those will be handled like ground targets..and as you describe it..


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## Khafee

naveedullahkhankhattak said:


> http://www.dnd.com.pk/pakistan-successfully-tests-babur-weapon-system-version-2/120995
> *Pakistan successfully tests Babur Weapon System version – 2*
> By
> DND
> -
> December 14, 2016
> *RAWALPINDI, Pakistan: Pakistan on Wednesday conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile, according to the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR).*
> 
> The ISPR said that Babur Weapon System version – 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy at a range of 700 kilometers.
> 
> It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.
> 
> Equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation. Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence.
> 
> *Today’s launch was witnessed by the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.*
> 
> *The CJCSC congratulated the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone* of great value and significance. He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed to the success of this launch.
> 
> Expressing his full confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, CJCSC stated that this test further strengthens Pakistan’s Deterrence Capability.
> 
> *President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif have congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful conduct of today’s missile test*.


Please see items in Red. IF Babur -2 is a minor upgrade, then what is the top tier so happy about?

*Green Bleeders* - Do note.





Technogaianist said:


> Satellite cuing has been used for real-time targeting too. A2A engagements using satellite tracking and guidance of AIM-120 and AIM-9 have taken place as an augment to radar or IR guidance, which are easier to fool or jam then satellites.



@MastanKhan @Indus Falcon @war&peace @Naif al Hilali

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## LeGenD

EpiiC said:


> 700KM range isn't enough to hit anywhere in India... you just said it can... it can't actually.


Cruise missile is not intended to target urban environments. It is intended to take out military assets and/or targets of strategic value. Towards this end, Babur-II has decent range.

If Pakistan manages to develop naval cruise missile attack capability, it can attack Indian targets from different angles. Now this would be a capability to behold.

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## I S I

Ottoman123 said:


> That's not Urdu, that was in Turkish!!


Damn

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## Naif al Hilali

Khafee said:


> Please see items in Red. IF Babur -2 is a minor upgrade, then what is the top tier is so happy about?
> 
> *Green Bleeders* - Do note.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't say anything more then this.
> 
> 
> 
> @MastanKhan @Indus Falcon @war&peace @Naif al Hilali


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Jaza'ak Allah for the tag brother.

Interesting that Gen. Hayat was Director General [DG] Strategic Plans Division [SPD] in the past - his elevation to Chief of the Joint Command [CJCSC] and the current politico-military situation might have some bearing on the timing of this test.

Very impressive to see that they have implemented Terrain Following [TERCOM] and Digital Scene Matching [DSMAC] on the Babur here. Please keep in mind that the F-16C/D's Synthetic Aperture Radar [SAR] and DB-110 Reconnaissance Pod should be good substitutes for generating accurate wartime maps in lieu of satellites that we don't have. The SAAB 340 Airborne Early Warning & Control [AEW&C] aircraft also have decent SAR capability if I remember correctly but they will probable be too busy and too far from the theater for this purpose.

I don't know how good the terminal guidance and maneuvering is but tactical nuclear payloads seem to be the missile's forte.

The increased range and improved (and map update-able) guidance should be huge advantages in targeting nearly all tactical theater staging areas and bases in times of conflict. Will definitely need terminal guidance for conventional attack on moving targets - the terminal guidance, at least on the software side these days, is also a wholly different ball-game on the open seas.


Hifz u kum Allah

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## Khafee

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Jaza'ak Allah for the tag brother.
> 
> Interesting that Gen. Hayat was Director General [DG] Strategic Plans Division [SPD] in the past - his elevation to Chief of the Joint Command [CJCSC] and the current politico-military situation might have some bearing on the timing of this test.
> 
> Very impressive to see that they have implemented Terrain Following [TERCOM] and Digital Scene Matching [DSMAC] on the Babur here. Please keep in mind that the F-16C/D's Synthetic Aperture Radar [SAR] and DB-110 Reconnaissance Pod should be good substitutes for generating accurate wartime maps in lieu of satellites that we don't have. The SAAB 340 Airborne Early Warning & Control [AEW&C] aircraft also have decent SAR capability if I remember correctly but they will probable be too busy and too far from the theater for this purpose.
> 
> I don't know how good the terminal guidance and maneuvering is but tactical nuclear payloads seem to be the missile's forte.
> 
> The increased range and improved (and map update-able) guidance should be huge advantages in targeting nearly all tactical theater staging areas and bases in times of conflict. Will definitely need terminal guidance for conventional attack on moving targets - the terminal guidance, at least on the software side these days, is also a wholly different ball-game on the open seas.
> 
> 
> Hifz u kum Allah



You have real time High Rez Satellite access for quite some time. Via outsourcing. 

Pakistan operates SAAB 2000, and not SAAB 340, which we do.

Babur can use HE conventional warhead quite well, as proven in multiple tests.

To me, the only thing this test tells me, is that Long range Ship to Ship engagements have been perfected. 

SLCM to shore, and Ship to shore, capability was achieved long time ago.

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## MastanKhan

Aasimkhan said:


> Can it sink their aircraft carrier?



Hi,

No----it cannot. It would be more potent to use a sub surface small yield nuc tipped torpedo that you even detonate a few meter below the keel of the ship or in close vicinity of it.

That is the best solution to sink a carrier---. A hit from the top may cripple it---but will not sink it.

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## Khafee

SOUTHie said:


> Sane people will never nuke another country. After knowing its effects.
> And will think twice to use against a country having second strike capability


No off topic BS trolling. Consider your self warned.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Congrats for this successful test, now it can hit Sea as well. This is big improvement and 2nd step towards submarine launch platform. We are going in right direction, Day is not far when we will test it from Submarine for Sea to surface and sea to sea Target. Hope it will do well against moving target in sea.


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## Naif al Hilali

Khafee said:


> 1. You have real time High Rez Satellite access for quite some time. Via outsourcing.
> 
> 2. Pakistan operates SAAB 2000, and not SAAB 340, which we do.
> 
> 3. Babur can use HE conventional warhead quite well, as proven in multiple tests.
> 
> 4. To me, the only thing this test tells me, is that Long range Ship to Ship engagements have been perfected.
> 
> SLCM to shore, and Ship to shore, capability was achieved long time ago.


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

1. Jaza'ak Allah brother, I was actually worried about the wartime mapping aspect for detecting terrain changes and camouflaging. Thanks for making an important point here.

2. Sorry I am both dyslexic and have ADHD. It is difficult for me to write and often I transpose words, sometimes in my mind and sometimes on paper.

3. Jaza'ak Allah and you would know more about the terminal guidance capabilities also which we don't need to discuss here.

4. I cede defeat to your expertise here. I am both out of my comfort zone on this point and have always ended up under-estimating Pakistani/ UAE expertise in the past. 

So, with humblest of apologies, I would say for the benefit of this forum's readers that you have the superior knowledge on all these points and they should definitely listen to you, Penguin, and Rashid Mahmood.

Hifz u kum Allah

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## Khafee

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> 1. Jaza'ak Allah brother, I was actually worried about the wartime mapping aspect for detecting terrain changes and camouflaging. Thanks for making an important point here.
> 
> 2. Sorry I am both dyslexic and have ADHD. It is difficult for me to write and often I transpose words, sometimes in my mind and sometimes on paper.
> 
> 3. Jaza'ak Allah and you would know more about the terminal guidance capabilities also which we don't need to discuss here.
> 
> 4. I cede defeat to your expertise here. I am both out of my comfort zone on this point and have always ended up under-estimating Pakistani/ UAE expertise in the past.
> 
> So, with humblest of apologies, I would say for the benefit of this forum's readers that you have the superior knowledge on all these points and they should definitely listen to you, Penguin, and Rashid Mahmood.
> 
> Hifz u kum Allah



No issues at all, please free to PM me if I can be of any help.

Best Regards

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## Aasimkhan

SOUTHie said:


> Sane people will never nuke another country. After knowing its effects.
> And will think twice to use against a country having second strike capability


We will do everything if our existence is threatened. If we r no more there why should India exist?


----------



## PAKISTANI LEOPARD

Pakistan Zindabaad

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## Aasimkhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No----it cannot. It would be more potent to use a sub surface small yield nuc tipped torpedo that you even detonate a few meter below the keel of the ship or in close vicinity of it.
> 
> That is the best solution to sink a carrier---. A hit from the top may cripple it---but will not sink it.


It will depend on the warhead also ? May be a hyper velocity KE round will kill the tanker


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## MastanKhan

Aasimkhan said:


> It will depend on the warhead also ? May be a hyper velocity KE round will kill the tanker



Hi,

There is no conventional war head big enough to sink an aircraft carrier---.

Only chance is to explode the TN warhead under its keel



Khafee said:


> You have real time High Rez Satellite access for quite some time. Via outsourcing.
> 
> Pakistan operates SAAB 2000, and not SAAB 340, which we do.
> 
> Babur can use HE conventional warhead quite well, as proven in multiple tests.
> 
> To me, the only thing this test tells me, is that Long range Ship to Ship engagements have been perfected.
> 
> SLCM to shore, and Ship to shore, capability was achieved long time ago.



Hi,

I think that the range and capabilities are more potent than claimed---.

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## Khafee

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think that the range and capabilities are more potent than claimed---.


Absolutely.

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## shah1398

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no conventional war head big enough to sink an aircraft carrier---.
> 
> Only chance is to explode the TN warhead under its keel
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I think that the range and capabilities are more potent than claimed---.



Off Topic: Loved your signature Sir. Had been searching for exact wordings of it since long. Permission to copy them plz?

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## Rashid Mahmood

The actual range and capabilities are never released to public.

Developing a terrain hugging missile equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) is a proud moment for our scientists.

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## MastanKhan

shah1398 said:


> Off Topic: Loved your signature Sir. Had been searching for exact wordings of it since long. Permission to copy them plz?



Hi,

Absolutely---I just took some words out to shorten the sentence to fit in.

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## shah1398

Khafee said:


> Absolutely.



Sir can assume that Babur II has got something to do with recently announced coastal defence system? Your views plz.

@MastanKhan 


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Absolutely---I just took some words out to shorten the sentence to fit in.



Thank U Sir. And your views plz regarding my above mentioned query?

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## PaklovesTurkiye

alwaysfair said:


> Technogainist bhaiya , understood what you are saying . Missile has to reach general area of the ship through gps and then the short range methods are used for individual ship recognition. And Pakistan has developed this level of sophisticated tech ? Ok.



hahaha....as far as I know....not bhayyia but baji...

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## Khafee

shah1398 said:


> Sir can assume that Babur II has got something to do with recently announced coastal defence system? Your views plz.



Babur 2 and Coastal Defence System, are two different things. 

Babaur2 = https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-2-cruise-missile.466682/page-16#post-9011171

"In my opinion" CDS would have a max range of 500km ~ 600km, whereas Babur sits close to +/-1,000kms, or more. 
_*Note:* CDS -Knowing Pakistani Armed Forces, I wouldn't buy this story of 250km ~ 300km. Sorry_

@Rashid Mahmood can shed more light on CDS.

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## Samee Ulhaq

naveedullahkhankhattak said:


> http://www.dnd.com.pk/pakistan-successfully-tests-babur-weapon-system-version-2/120995
> *Pakistan successfully tests Babur Weapon System version – 2*
> By
> DND
> -
> December 14, 2016
> *RAWALPINDI, Pakistan: Pakistan on Wednesday conducted a successful test of an enhanced version of the indigenously developed Babur Cruise Missile, according to the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR).*
> 
> The ISPR said that Babur Weapon System version – 2 incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy at a range of 700 kilometers.
> 
> It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.
> 
> Equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation. Babur Weapon System is an important force multiplier for Pakistan’s strategic defence.
> 
> Today’s launch was witnessed by the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.
> 
> The CJCSC congratulated the scientists and engineers on achieving yet another milestone of great value and significance. He appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists who contributed to the success of this launch.
> 
> Expressing his full confidence over the Strategic Command and Control System and the Strategic Forces’ operational preparedness, CJCSC stated that this test further strengthens Pakistan’s Deterrence Capability.
> 
> President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif have congratulated the scientists and engineers on successful conduct of today’s missile test.



>> Pakistan should develop air defense systems.


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## Khafee

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> hahaha....as far as I know....not bhayyia but baji...


More like Aunty

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## Mrc

Aasimkhan said:


> Can it sink their aircraft carrier?




It can cripple it ...several hits might be needed to cripple it....cariers are huge though indian one is 1/5th size of american...

Hypersonic missiles...due to their kinetic energy can do more damage...

But why to sink , just cripple it and than hit the rescuers


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## MULUBJA

maximuswarrior said:


> If the mentioned range is true, it seems the focus was on improving aerodynamics and avionics.


 
How can you improve aerodynamics of a cylindrical shape missile?


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## MULUBJA

Mrc said:


> It can cripple it ...several hits might be needed to cripple it....cariers are huge though indian one is 1/5th size of american...
> 
> Hypersonic missiles...due to their kinetic energy can do more damage...
> 
> But why to sink , just cripple it and than hit the rescuers


 
Vikramaditya weighs 45 k tons. So as per your argument US aricraft carier must weigh 225 K Tons. Is it?

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## Peaceful Civilian

11 years past since first test of Babur cruise missile. This program is improving every year and Becoming Mature in many aspects . Thanks to our scientists for such hard work and dedication in this program. Now, we have capability to hit targets in sea. 
In reply,India is doing multi layer Defense shield, which means If we dodge one system, then we have to face Second layer of their defense system. We have multi-tubes system for Babur cruise missile but Now, its right time we should concentrate on MIRV technology.

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## maximuswarrior

Peaceful Civilian said:


> 11 years past since first test of Babur cruise missile. This program is improving every year and Becoming Mature in many aspects . Thanks to our scientists for such hard work and dedication in this program. Now, we have capability to hit targets in sea.
> In reply,India is doing multi layer Defense shield, which means If we dodge one system, then we have to face Second layer of their defense system. We have multi-tube for Babur cruise missile but Now, its right time we should concentrate on MIRV technology.



I have heard before that Pakistan has been busy mastering MIRV for a long time now. I wouldn't be surprised if we were in a very advanced stage of this critical capability. I doubt that Pakistan would convey this capability.

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## cranwerkhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No----it cannot. It would be more potent to use a sub surface small yield nuc tipped torpedo that you even detonate a few meter below the keel of the ship or in close vicinity of it.
> 
> That is the best solution to sink a carrier---. A hit from the top may cripple it---but will not sink it.



mastan bhai wat if nasar warhead is fitted in babur it will do the similler job?

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## Aamir Siddiqui

Great News.. Long Live Pakistan...


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## Peaceful Civilian

maximuswarrior said:


> I have heard before that Pakistan has been busy mastering MIRV for a long time now. I wouldn't be surprised if we were in a very advanced stage of this critical capability. I doubt that Pakistan would convey this capability.


Also, i am more interested in new 8 submarines from china, we will receive delivery of first submarine after 2 year according to news, So we should expect first submarine launch test within few years,this Day is not far. Yes I also heard about our scientists busy in MIRV, but still no official confirmation.

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## Rashid Mahmood

This is what would be an ideal CDS coverage with a modest 240 km range Anti-Ship Missile.
I have used 240 km range because targeting a frigate sized ship at +15 kts at this range needs a lot of precision.
It's a rough drawing, not to be taken for granted.

Only 3 Missile batteries would be required at locations along the coast to cover the whole coastline from the creeks to Jiwani.

You increase the range of the missile, the area of denial will increase. 
With Babur 2 on some platforms, just imagine the denial area.
_(* This is just my opinion only, just to give you an idea)





_

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Khafee said:


> Well those who bleed green, might be interested to know that the second version of Babur which reached IOC " a couple of years +/- ago" was SLCM.
> 
> This was the second version, after Babur Surface to Surface CM.
> 
> *Note:* Those who bleed any other color except green, please ignore this post.
> 
> Thank You!


Are you sure you bleed green and still you do not look like this...


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## Ultima Thule

Samee Ulhaq said:


> >> Pakistan should develop air defense systems.


off topic, this is a thread of successful launch of BABUR-2 not for ADS


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## The Accountant

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The actual range and capabilities are never released to public.
> 
> Developing a terrain hugging missile equipped with state of the art navigational technologies of Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and all time Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation (DSMAC) is a proud moment for our scientists.



Hi ,,, just one question in my mind ... our navigational system of cruise missile are state of the art and all the efforts are seems to be in this direction ... but all of our missiles are sub sonic except for purchased CM 400 AK which is also not a true cruise missile but somewhat more close to ballistic missile engine tech but following a high altitude cruise missile trajectory ...

So currently are we doing anything on ramjet engines ... or even if we procure ramjet engine so would it be possible to mate navigational systems and seekers of babar with ramjet and develop a new breed of supersoinc missile ???


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## Windjammer

*
The efforts and transformation of Babur system has been impressive to say the least.*

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## Rashid Mahmood

The Accountant said:


> So currently are we doing anything on ramjet engines ... or even if we procure ramjet engine so would it be possible to mate navigational systems and seekers of babar with ramjet and develop a new breed of supersoinc missile ???



Not in my knowledge.

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## Ultima Thule

The Accountant said:


> but all of our missiles are sub sonic


C-803 is a terminal supersonic missiles

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## Indus Falcon

Khafee said:


> The Press Release today , is not giving the full story either.





Rashid Mahmood said:


> The actual range and capabilities are never released to public.


@Penguin Mods have certain limitations. Anything they say can be misconstrued as an official statement. 

But if you were to keep an eye on these two gentlemen, you will definitely get a lot of credible info.

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## Sulman Badshah

Babur 2 Cruise missile points.

1. It can hit targets at land and Sea with pin point accuracy at the range of 700 km. 
2. Can carry multiple types of Warheads (although Pakistan didn't reveal the actual types of warheads. (different warhead might include HE , Cluster , Dispenser, Nuclear Warhead) 
3. With the mentioning of Anti ship Capability .. It can be assumed that Missile might comes up with (active radar homing) 
4. it is equipped with navigational technologies like TERCOM and DSMAC which enables it to engage various type of targets with pinpoint accuracy even in the absence of GPS navigation.
5. sources mentioned Enhance stealthy features which means better material is used in missile ... which also might have reduce overall weight of missile

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## The Accountant

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Not in my knowledge.



@Penguin @Khafee @Horus @Devil Soul @Side-Winder 

Hi can anyone response to below query of mine ?

just one question in my mind ... our navigational system of cruise missile are state of the art and all the efforts are seems to be in this direction ... but all of our missiles are sub sonic except for purchased CM 400 AK which is also not a true cruise missile but somewhat more close to ballistic missile engine tech but following a high altitude cruise missile trajectory ...

So currently are we doing anything on ramjet engines ... or even if we procure ramjet engine so would it be possible to mate navigational systems and seekers of babar with ramjet and develop a new breed of supersoinc missile ???


----------



## maxpayne

The Accountant said:


> @Penguin @Khafee @Horus @Devil Soul @Side-Winder
> 
> Hi can anyone response to below query of mine ?
> 
> just one question in my mind ... our navigational system of cruise missile are state of the art and all the efforts are seems to be in this direction ... but all of our missiles are sub sonic except for purchased CM 400 AK which is also not a true cruise missile but somewhat more close to ballistic missile engine tech but following a high altitude cruise missile trajectory ...
> 
> So currently are we doing anything on ramjet engines ... or even if we procure ramjet engine so would it be possible to mate navigational systems and seekers of babar with ramjet and develop a new breed of supersoinc missile ???



Yes. It is possible. The only impossible is no1 will give us ramjet engines!


----------



## Penguin

The SC said:


> That is why they call it Babur 2...it has both configurations now, antiship and land attack..


Oh, really? (I thought I just acknowledged that....)



DJ_Viper said:


> I am sure its being noticed alright . In addition to the "sea targets", the main component of that is the Digital Area matching system, aka, Satellite pictures of sea assets fed into this system, and it can hunt it down in the ocean on its own like 430 miles out (700 KMs). Even if the GPS system was taken out. This range covers the entire EEZ of Pakistan and on the otherwise, all the way to the Indian ports. So this can directly be sent to Indian ports to take out any Indian naval units, way before they can even enter the Pakistani waters. This is pretty big news for Pakistan in terms of strategic threat perception and neutralization.
> 
> That's pretty advance and makes this system on par with a few most advanced systems in the world.


The word 'area' in Digital Area matching system refers to terrain, not 'sea assets' (which refers to individual ships, which are point rather than area targets)



M.Musa said:


> How can a cruise missile hit target without GPS(or similar system) help especially at sea?


datalink (for receiving target coordinates from elsewhere e.g. Orion MPA and/or sending potential target imagery/data)
inertial navigation system
IR or Radar homing terminal guidance



The SC said:


> What about moving targets?
> It will; work against a blockade though..when enemy ships are almost stationary..


Blockading ships do not chug around at 3 knots.



graphican said:


> India had sent their submarine into Pakistani waters and had it shunned out. With China in Arabian Sea, there will be even more anti-submarine radars in place to take care of underwater vehicles.
> 
> CPEC has changed situation of Arabian Sea remarkably.. instead of Pakistan, India would be worried about Chinese presence in its waters.


80 mi off shore = international waters.



The Accountant said:


> @Penguin
> So currently are we doing anything on ramjet engines ... or even if we procure ramjet engine so would it be possible to mate navigational systems and seekers of babar with ramjet and develop a new breed of supersoinc missile ???


I'm not familiar with Pakistan's efforts in the area of ramjet propulsion. As for external procurement, the following countries had or have ramjet powered missiles: UK, France, Germany, China, Taiwan, India, Russia, US. I see not obstacle in mating guidance pack with different proulsion.

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## maximuswarrior

Rashid Mahmood said:


> This is what would be an ideal CDS coverage with a modest 240 km range Anti-Ship Missile.
> I have used 240 km range because targeting a frigate sized ship at +15 kts at this range needs a lot of precision.
> It's a rough drawing, not to be taken for granted.
> 
> Only 3 Missile batteries would be required at locations along the coast to cover the whole coastline from the creeks to Jiwani.
> 
> You increase the range of the missile, the area of denial will increase.
> With Babur 2 on some platforms, just imagine the denial area.
> _(* This is just my opinion only, just to give you an idea)
> 
> View attachment 360460
> _



In other words, we shouldn't be surprised that this test coincides with the kick off of CPEC/Gwadar. It is definitely a capability meant to be used for the protection these assets.

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## The Deterrent

Oscar said:


> Anti Ship is not the main focus here. Long range Land strikes are and as such the update is for allowing better terrain following and terminal evasive actions.
> 
> Ship board is in limbo until a suitable VLS equipped vessel is procured from China.





Oscar said:


> Land attack wont be practical until VLS, unless they try what they tried with Nodong in 90's.
> Basically, put it on the helipad. A crude approach that might work but not very effective nor secure.



I'm a bit uninformed on the space/volume available on our ships, but would there be a problem in mounting similar (slanted) on-deck launchers?
@Penguin 






Khafee said:


> Well those who bleed green, might be interested to know that the second version of Babur which reached IOC " a couple of years +/- ago" was SLCM.
> 
> This was the second version, after Babur Surface to Surface CM.
> 
> *Note:* Those who bleed any other color except green, please ignore this post.
> 
> Thank You!









Khafee said:


> Please see items in Red. IF Babur -2 is a minor upgrade, then what is the top tier so happy about?
> 
> *Green Bleeders* - Do note.


They are ALWAYS happy. It is the standard statement issued every time.

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## Sulman Badshah

pakistanipower said:


> C-803 is a terminal supersonic missiles


there is no C803 missile till now...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Penguin said:


> I'm not familiar with Pakistan's efforts in the area of ramjet propulsion. As for external procurement, the following countries had or have ramjet powered missiles: UK, France, Germany, China, Taiwan, India, Russia, US. I see not obstacle in mating guidance pack with different proulsion.


There might be some thing going along but under cover still. Things would have been faster if Earth Quake and Floods would have spared Pakistan. 

You missed out Iran from the list of countries possessing ramjet technology which was attained through UK.


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## Mrc

Supersonic missiles will be detected far earlier than subsonic ones ... and there are very few manuvers u can do while being or remaining supersonic...

Mainstay Ashm in all western navies including US are subsonic...

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## Gregor Clegane

Mrc said:


> Supersonic missiles will be detected far earlier than subsonic ones ... and there are very few manuvers u can do while being or remaining supersonic...
> 
> Mainstay Ashm in all western navies including US are subsonic...


Pakistan Navy doesn't have any missile to intercept a mach 3 missile like BrahMos which has a range of 600km now.
FM-90N are obsolete and useful only against subsonic targets and low flying aircraft.

Also the reason western navies depend on Harpoon like ASHM is because of their compatibility with multi role VLS.

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## Mrc

Gregor Clegane said:


> Pakistan Navy doesn't have any missile to intercept a mach 3 missile like BrahMos which has a range of 600km now.




Nor does nato

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## Gregor Clegane

Mrc said:


> Nor does nato


Aster 30 and Barak 8 can.


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## Mrc

Gregor Clegane said:


> Aster 30 and Barak 8 can.




Mach 3?? Sory i did nt know


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## nomi007

They should work to integrate the vertical launch mechanism on naval ships. This would greatly enhance the strike capability of Pakistan,


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## The Accountant

Mrc said:


> Supersonic missiles will be detected far earlier than subsonic ones ... and there are very few manuvers u can do while being or remaining supersonic...
> 
> Mainstay Ashm in all western navies including US are subsonic...



Agreed but even the CIWS are quite effective against sub-sonic missiles ... so it is difficult to detect a subsonic missile but it is easy to engage it by point defence systems ... so sub-sonic missiles are not ideal choice for high value target as they must be protected by point defence systems ...


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## Mrc

The Accountant said:


> Agreed but even the CIWS are quite effective against sub-sonic missiles ... so it is difficult to detect a subsonic missile but it is easy to engage it by point defence systems ... so sub-sonic missiles are not ideal choice for high value target as they must be protected by point defence systems ...




US navy seems to disagree

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## hussain0216

Gregor Clegane said:


> Pakistan Navy doesn't have any missile to intercept a mach 3 missile like BrahMos which has a range of 600km now.
> FM-90N are obsolete and useful only against subsonic targets and low flying aircraft.
> 
> Also the reason western navies depend on Harpoon like ASHM is because of their compatibility with multi role VLS.



There is a reason why some of the most advanced militaries in the world have not inducted a brahmos like missile even though they have far more technical knowhow then Russia

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## Gregor Clegane

hussain0216 said:


> There is a reason why some of the most advanced militaries in the world have not inducted a brahmos like missile even though they have far more technical knowhow then Russia


None except US has more know how in missile technology than Russia.
US didn't duct BrahMos like missile as a large supersonic missile won't fit into their VLS.


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## hussain0216

Gregor Clegane said:


> None except US has more know how in missile technology than Russia.
> US didn't duct BrahMos like missile as a large supersonic missile won't fit into their VLS.



Sure because the U.S has limited funds and space and they the European, Israelis or anyone else dont see the benefits of such a missile

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## Fenrir

Aasimkhan said:


> Can it sink their aircraft carrier?



Regarding a nuclear payload, the lingering fallout they create and the Indian carrier, I did a post on that a few months ago in a different thread. It specifically relates to the lethality of fallout and ship NBC protection and protocols, but it's relevant in a discussion on nuclear weapons so I'll repost it here for everyone.

Original thread in case anyone wants some context - https://defence.pk/threads/india-no...ly-sea-trade-route.452617/page-4#post-8755312
*...*

Depends on how close you are. NBC is for lingering or residual radiological contamination, not a full-on dose from an atomic detonation.

Take the 23 kiloton Able shot - an air burst device of the same type that was used on Japan.






At just half a mile away from the detonation, ships like USS Nevada, painted red here during nuclear weapons testing, actually survived the blast:





However, it received lethal doses of radiation:

_Although the *Able bomb missed its target, Nevada, by nearly half a mile, and it failed to sink or to contaminate the battleship, a crew would not have survived*. Goat #119, tethered inside a gun turret and shielded by armor plate, received enough fireball radiation to die four days later of radiation sickness having survived two days longer than goat #53, which was on the deck, unshielded. *Had Nevada been fully manned, she would likely have become a floating coffin*, dead in the water for lack of a live crew. In theory, every unprotected location on the ship received 10,000 rems (100 Sv) of initial nuclear radiation from the fireball. Therefore, people deep enough inside the ship to experience a 90% radiation reduction would still have received a lethal dose of 1,000 rems._

Fast forward a few months to the Baker shot, and the damage is even worse. This time the explosion is underwater, rather then the airburst Fatman design that Able used:
_



_

Upon detonation, a primary shockwave crushed USS Arkansas to the point were it now appears to be lying top down underwater, which battleships often do as they are top heavy. In reality USS Arkansas is lying on its side, but appears to be lying top down because one half of the ship is gone, having been crushed to pieces.

USS Saratoga was sunk during the shot. She was an aircraft carrier:





Two ships down. But what about those that survived like USS Independence, which also survived the Able shot, as shown here?





The surge of the collapsing spray column painted the target ships with so much radiation that the USN was unable to decontaminate them and scuttled the ships:

_As with Able, any ships that remained afloat within 1,000 yards (914 m) of the detonation were seriously damaged, but this time the damage came from below, from water pressure rather than air pressure. The greatest difference between the two shots was the radioactive contamination of all the target ships by Baker. Regardless of the degree of damage, only nine surviving Baker target ships were eventually decontaminated and sold for scrap. The rest were sunk at sea after decontamination efforts failed._

Modern CBRN measures have come along way such as positive pressure interiors, automated decontaminated systems, advanced filtration capabilities, but a nuclear detonation is a different game. USS Nevada would have doomed its crew, despite surviving the Able shot because the radiological contamination was so intense it seeped through the ships hull. No filtration system or scrubbers will stop that.

And keep in mind both Able and Baker were measured in tens of kilotons, at 23 kt each. Maker forbid you get hit with a multi-megaton device like Castle Bravo:






Radiological contaminants from Bravo travelled 300 miles and remained lethal within 100 miles. The Fireball itself was 7km across.

You'd likely not survive a 20kt blast if within a mile. Forget about surviving anything larger.

*...*

If nuclear armed, yes Babur will likely equal a kill against the Indian carrier, though that's dependent on the size of the warhead mostly. If conventionally armed it'll do damage, perhaps mission kill the carrier, but leave it afloat.

It could be finished off after.



Mrc said:


> Nor does nato



ESSM, SM-2, Aster 30, and SM-6 were designed to take down fast moving Russian missiles like P-500 and P-800, this would also include Brahmos.

SM-6 has experience downing Coyote target missiles, which travel at Mach 3 at 15 feet above sea level.

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/08/sm-6-can-now-kill-both-cruise-and-ballistic-missiles/








hussain0216 said:


> Sure because the U.S has limited funds and space and they the European, Israelis or anyone else dont see the benefits of such a missile



It's mostly because Europeans and the Americans favor smart, slow missiles over fast, but largely dumb and unmaneuverable ones like Brahmos. Different philosophy and one is no more right then the other.

The Americans like brains, and so do we. It reflects in our missile development.

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## The Accountant

Mrc said:


> US navy seems to disagree



US navy has all sort of missiles ... from sub-sonic to supersonic ... the reason they use sub-sonic is all of their attacks are against nations not having capable air defence systems ...

Why to use tank it assault rifle could do the job ...

vulnerability of sub-sonic missiles against good air defence is attack of Yemenis missile on Makkah defended by Patriot of KSA ...


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## Gregor Clegane

hussain0216 said:


> Sure because the U.S has limited funds and space and they the European, Israelis or anyone else dont see the benefits of such a missile


Israel doesn't even much if a offensive navy to warrant such missiles.
European are have to follow NATO compatible strategy set by US so there missiles have to be compatible with VLS


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## hussain0216

Gregor Clegane said:


> Israel doesn't even much if a offensive navy to warrant such missiles.
> European are have to follow NATO compatible strategy set by US so there missiles have to be compatible with VLS



Its more because they want intelligent (in missile sense) manoeuvrable and smart missiles rather then brahmos type, its the same reason Russia hasent been too enthusiastic about it and why they dont have a queue of waiting customers for Brahmos

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## Mrc

The Accountant said:


> US navy has all sort of missiles ... from sub-sonic to supersonic ... the reason they use sub-sonic is all of their attacks are against nations not having capable air defence systems ...
> 
> Why to use tank it assault rifle could do the job ...
> 
> vulnerability of sub-sonic missiles against good air defence is attack of Yemenis missile on Makkah defended by Patriot of KSA ...



That was a scud not cm... and the reasons why US still using subsonic missiles as MAINSTAY ashm is far beyond cost alone... as for competency of enemy same missiles will b used against chinese and russians...

West never really convinced it self on utility of hypersonic cms

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## Gregor Clegane

hussain0216 said:


> Its more because they want intelligent (in missile sense) manoeuvrable and smart missiles rather then brahmos type, its the same reason Russia hasent been too enthusiastic about it and why they dont have a queue of waiting customers for Brahmos


Russia added BrahMos to it's New frigates.
Only drawback of BrahMos is its range of 600km.
Whereas missiles like Kalibr and Tomahawk have ranges >2000km.

Also BrahMos blk3 is more manueverable than most subsonic Ashm.


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## Indus Falcon

The Deterrent said:


> They are ALWAYS happy. It is the standard statement issued every time.



Try banging that ganjee tind into @Khafee and see what happens

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## TOPGUN

This thread is about Babur 2 cruise missile , please keep indian stories out of here there are threads for the indian side thank you.

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## MastanKhan

MULUBJA said:


> Vikramaditya weighs 45 k tons. So as per your argument US aricraft carier must weigh 225 K Tons. Is it?



Hi,

Size and weight are two different things.



cranwerkhan said:


> mastan bhai wat if nasar warhead is fitted in babur it will do the similler job?



Hi,

It should already have been fitted a long time ago.

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## ghazi768

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No----it cannot. It would be more potent to use a sub surface small yield nuc tipped torpedo that you even detonate a few meter below the keel of the ship or in close vicinity of it.
> 
> That is the best solution to sink a carrier---. A hit from the top may cripple it---but will not sink it.



I do agree with your assertion but apologies for expanding on it...

we never did an underwater test but data from western tests is largely available. in one test of 20-25 kt device below 50 meters vaporised 1000 ton ship above it and sank a 45000 ton carrier at 450 yards away, battleships, destroyers upto 1000 yards away sank and being that many got severely damaged. So I do not think that it is necessary to detonate right below the carrier, a broad side a few hundred yards away will deform the hull enough to sink the carrier and a thousand yard away smaller ships. But I do agree that a donation right blow will certainly vaporise parts of hull and sink it faster.
But the most important findings were that because of an under water explosion and radioactive material mixing with water and that water moving over ships, the radiation was so severe that it made any attempts to use ships which did not sink futile. Basically you can practically wipe out a battle group with couple of explosions.

Also I do not agree with perceptions of an air burst not scuttling big carriers, in a famous test air burst 150 meters in air of 20-25 kt sank ships a 1000 yards away and also severely damaged others even further. But one interesting fact of such an air burst is that it did not leave a fall out and also the flash radioactive effect is so severe that ships in a couple of thousands yards of ground zero which do not sink will turn into ghost ships in matter of days if not hours. In that test, animals behind 12+ inch think amor plating in massive battle ships died within couple of days. Strangely such airburst do not leave long-term radioactivity and ships can be brought back to service if not damaged severely.

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## Penguin

The Deterrent said:


> I'm a bit uninformed on the space/volume available on our ships, but would there be a problem in mounting similar (slanted) on-deck launchers?
> @Penguin



Tomahawk

Weight 

Without booster 2,900 lb (1,300 kg), 

With booster 3,500 lb (1,600 kg)

Length
Without booster: 18 ft 3 in (5.56 m)
With booster: 20 ft 6 in (6.25 m)

Diameter
20.4 in (0.52 m)

Harpoon

Weight
1,523 lb (691 kg) with booster

Length 

Air-launched (without booster): 12.6 ft (3.8 m); 

Surface- and submarine-launched (with booster): 15 ft (4.6 m)

Diameter 

13.5 in (34 cm)

A set of four Tomahawks (or equivalent) would weigh at least 6.4 ton, versus 2.8 ton for Harpoon (not included is the weight of the containers and the rack). With a length that is more than 35% longer than Harpoon, and a diameter that is more than 50% wider than Harpoon, I figure the deck space requirement or 'footprint' of 2x4 Tomahawk in a simple arrangement will easily be double that of a set of 2x4 Harpoon.

A less than simple arrangement is the armoured box launcher for Tomahawk (see post #214)
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-2-cruise-missile.466682/page-15#post-9010854





The IOWA class BB conversion give a good idea of relative sizes. It carrier 8 armoured box launchers for Tomahawk and 4x4 Harpoon. amidships.





Compare 3 and 4

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Great Achievement

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## Basel

The SC said:


> I was answering your post. I hope you did read it!
> "the main component of that is the Digital Area matching system, aka, Satellite pictures of sea assets fed into this system, and it can hunt it down in the ocean on its own like 430 miles out (700 KMs). Even if the GPS system was taken out. This range covers the entire EEZ of Pakistan and on the otherwise, all the way to the Indian ports"
> Do you mean they will hit the ports? because hitting an individual ship you need a homing device..



For Sea Targets KE's of PAF with datalink with CMs will be very handy against IN CBGs.



Rashid Mahmood said:


> This is what would be an ideal CDS coverage with a modest 240 km range Anti-Ship Missile.
> I have used 240 km range because targeting a frigate sized ship at +15 kts at this range needs a lot of precision.
> It's a rough drawing, not to be taken for granted.
> 
> Only 3 Missile batteries would be required at locations along the coast to cover the whole coastline from the creeks to Jiwani.
> 
> You increase the range of the missile, the area of denial will increase.
> With Babur 2 on some platforms, just imagine the denial area.
> _(* This is just my opinion only, just to give you an idea)
> 
> View attachment 360460
> _



Baber V2.0 is now at least Nasr for Sea, if you can get my point.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gregor Clegane said:


> Pakistan Navy doesn't have any missile to intercept a mach 3 missile like BrahMos which has a range of 600km now.
> FM-90N are obsolete and useful only against subsonic targets and low flying aircraft.
> 
> Also the reason western navies depend on Harpoon like ASHM is because of their compatibility with multi role VLS.


Sweetheart ... This thread has nothing to do with bhartis or yakhont clones... Neither is there any 600km yakhont as we speak... Neither is yakhont invincible ... 

And Pak does already have hypersonic CM-400 anti ship missiles n supersonic C-803...


No piss off to your Indian threads instead of derailing threads which have nothing to do with your kind...

@Oscar This is another multiple is troll... Type Gregor and several banned ids will pop up.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gregor Clegane said:


> BrahMos actually always had 600 km range:
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/articles/with-mtcr-entry-india-to-increase-brahmos-cruise-missile-range
> 
> Pakistan never inducted CM-400AKG and it did not progress beyond testing by PAF.



Read the article ... Lol... So you will buy the longer ranged Yakhont instead of the low ranged yakhont in service because of MTCR?

Also take your nonsense to indian forum not here .. This thread is about

Babur II;

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## Penguin

@The Deterrent

USS Long Beach: Harpoon 2x4 vs Tomahawk ABL 2x4











In terms of size: kinda like Brahmos on Rajput class





Or Onyx/Yakhont from Nanuchka class corvette







Gregor Clegane said:


> BrahMos actually always had 600 km range:
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/articles/with-mtcr-entry-india-to-increase-brahmos-cruise-missile-range
> 
> .


Interesting, this public admission of breach of Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR)....

Funny how the article on the one hand says "The official pointed out that the range of the joint venture missile can now be increased because of India's entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR)" and speak of 600km range in the future tense.

And then Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier and defense analyst agrees that the range of the BrahMos missile currently in use has a 600-kilometer range.

But then he goes and throughs that in doubt:
"There have been a number of assertions in the past from unspecific sources that the range is actually around 600 kilometers," Bhonsle said, adding that if it were true, modifications to the missile would likely be for stability and accuracy improvements and "not necessarily to enhance range."

So, on the whole, not a reliable piece of info, IMHO.

AFAIK the original Onyx has 600km range and export Yakhont 120-300km depending on flight profile.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sweetheart ... This thread has nothing to do with bhartis or yakhont clones... Neither is there any 600km yakhont as we speak... Neither is yakhont invincible ...


That would be becaue Yakhont is a range limited export version of the 600km P-800 Onyx

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## The Deterrent

Penguin said:


> @The Deterrent
> 
> USS Long Beach: Harpoon 2x4 vs Tomahawk ABL 2x4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of size: kinda like Brahmos on Rajput class
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or Onyx/Yakhont from Nanuchka class corvette


That was very informative. Someone pointed out a couple pages ago that in a MOD document there is a ship-launched weapon mentioned. A slanted platform is indeed coming up for it, but I wanted to know the possible installation configuration of it on our present vessels. Would we have to swap out existing AShM launchers, or is the space available on the helipads is the only way to go?


Indus Falcon said:


> Try banging that ganjee tind into @Khafee and see what happens


I'm afraid I'll bleed... green.


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## Penguin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> You missed out Iran from the list of countries possessing ramjet technology which was attained through UK.


Did I now? Which Iranian missile(s) has/have ramjet propulsion?


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## Penguin

The Deterrent said:


> That was very informative. Someone pointed out a couple pages ago that in a MOD document there is a ship-launched weapon mentioned. A slanted platform is indeed coming up for it, but I wanted to know the possible installation configuration of it on our present vessels. Would we have to swap out existing AShM launchers, or is the space available on the helipads is the only way to go?


Considering C-802 is longer than Harpoon, on F-22P, it would appear possible to swap out existing launchers (or make them dual use, so to speak). There is some room around the AShM launchers and there is also the are behind the stack. If the superstructure there is sufficiently strong for addittional weight, one might shoe horn in another 2x2 or 2x4. But a rack that could accommodate both C-802 and Babur would seem best (then I'ld use the midship area to make 2x6, for a mix of missiles)

Weight 715 kg
Length 6.392 m (presumably with booster)
Diameter 36 cm







On a Perry i.e. PNS Alamgir, you might have a similar install as the Taiwanese Hsiung Feng III (although this is admittedly a bit shorter at 6.1m and lighter)





Its a common rack, with different boxes for different missiles. Hsiung Feng 3 is a big supersonic AShM, which next to it is the smaller, Harpoon-like Hsiung Feng 2. Hsiung Feng 1 is essentially a derivative of the Israeli Gabriel missile Mk II and has a very different launcher alltogether.





You'ld need something like this (for C-802) but three rather than two wide. ANd possibly a bit wider (as Babur is fatter than C-802 and will have a wider launch box)









As on the older Type 053H2G, but with 2 layers of missiles per rack

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## MastanKhan

ghazi768 said:


> I do agree with your assertion but apologies for expanding on it...
> 
> we never did an underwater test but data from western tests is largely available. in one test of 20-25 kt device below 50 meters vaporised 1000 ton ship above it and sank a 45000 ton carrier at 450 yards away, battleships, destroyers upto 1000 yards away sank and being that many got severely damaged. So I do not think that it is necessary to detonate right below the carrier, a broad side a few hundred yards away will deform the hull enough to sink the carrier and a thousand yard away smaller ships. But I do agree that a donation right blow will certainly vaporise parts of hull and sink it faster.
> But the most important findings were that because of an under water explosion and radioactive material mixing with water and that water moving over ships, the radiation was so severe that it made any attempts to use ships which did not sink futile. Basically you can practically wipe out a battle group with couple of explosions.
> 
> Also I do not agree with perceptions of an air burst not scuttling big carriers, in a famous test air burst 150 meters in air of 20-25 kt sank ships a 1000 yards away and also severely damaged others even further. But one interesting fact of such an air burst is that it did not leave a fall out and also the flash radioactive effect is so severe that ships in a couple of thousands yards of ground zero which do not sink will turn into ghost ships in matter of days if not hours. In that test, animals behind 12+ inch think amor plating in massive battle ships died within couple of days. Strangely such airburst do not leave long-term radioactivity and ships can be brought back to service if not damaged severely.



Hi,

As it is new information to many readers---I was trying to be very conservative so that the reader could get some grip on it and understand the significance of a sub surface strike.

https://www.amazon.com/Tidal-Rip-Joe-Buff/dp/0060009667

For any submarine warfare enthusiast who can afford to---these books are a must read---.

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## [--Leo--]

what about the submarine version?


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## Aasimkhan

The Accountant said:


> US navy has all sort of missiles ... from sub-sonic to supersonic ... the reason they use sub-sonic is all of their attacks are against nations not having capable air defence systems ...
> 
> Why to use tank it assault rifle could do the job ...
> 
> vulnerability of sub-sonic missiles against good air defence is attack of Yemenis missile on Makkah defended by Patriot of KSA ...


100% agreed, due to advancement in radar tracking and engaging technologies slow moving missiles will be shot down. hyper velocity missiles with lots and lots of KE will be replacing slow moving ones.



hussain0216 said:


> Its more because they want intelligent (in missile sense) manoeuvrable and smart missiles rather then brahmos type, its the same reason Russia hasent been too enthusiastic about it and why they dont have a queue of waiting customers for Brahmos


In future in addition to manoeuvrability and smartness missiles will have to be fast (super hyper sonic whatever) as well.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As it is new information to many readers---I was trying to be very conservative so that the reader could get some grip on it and understand the significance of a sub surface strike.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Tidal-Rip-Joe-Buff/dp/0060009667
> 
> For any submarine warfare enthusiast who can afford to---these books are a must read---.


Thanks for sharing. I have made a short cut by watching the movie "Crimson Tide". Since then a fan of Denzel Washington and boomers..

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## MastanKhan

HAKIKAT said:


> Thanks for sharing. I have made a short cut by watching the movie "Crimson Tide". Since then a fan of Denzel Washington and boomers..



Hi,

That moive is okay---But when you read it---Joe Buff would blow your pants off----utterly shocking what the future of warfre is going to be like---

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## Gryphon

Penguin said:


> Considering C-802 is longer than Harpoon, on F-22P, it would appear possible to swap out existing launchers (or make them dual use, so to speak). There is some room around the AShM launchers and there is also the are behind the stack. If the superstructure there is sufficiently strong for addittional weight, one might shoe horn in another 2x2 or 2x4. *But a rack that could accommodate both C-802 and Babur would seem best* (then I'ld use the midship area to make 2x6, for a mix of missiles)



In its latest annual publication, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) disclosed that the Directorate General of Munitions Production (DGMP) was tasked with _“the indigenous developing of [one] ship-borne system with [one] Land Attack Missile and [one] Anti ship Missile.” _Development of this system is scheduled for completion by October 2018.

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## Ultima Thule

The Accountant said:


> Agreed but even the CIWS are quite effective against sub-sonic missiles ... so it is difficult to detect a subsonic missile but it is easy to engage it by point defence systems ... so sub-sonic missiles are not ideal choice for high value target as they must be protected by point defence systems ...


there are basically 2 type anti-ship missiles subsonic and supersonic but in between there are third type anti-ship missiles which have the capability of subsonic cruise and supersonic terminal dash like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-51_Alfa
version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YJ-83


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## Rafi

The missile is coming along nicely, it will be the first choice in strikes against the adversary, it will be improved constantly.

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## Ali.009

Why not test it for real and hit few Indian HQ's close to LOC that are constantly causing mischief and killing civilians. This nation has created these missiles through their blood and now these missiles are good for NOTHING. If our Army cant really deter India aggression with them then put these missiles in a museum and earn some revenue. The main aim of our missile defence technology is to deter Indian aggression, soft or hard.


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## Bratva

Rafi said:


> The missile is coming along nicely, it will be the first choice in strikes against the adversary, it will be improved constantly.



What happened to Sub Launch CM and BM series ?


----------



## Aasimkhan

Ali.009 said:


> Why not test it for real and hit few Indian HQ's close to LOC that are constantly causing mischief and killing civilians. This nation has created these missiles through their blood and now these missiles are good for NOTHING. If our Army cant really deter India aggression with them then put these missiles in a museum and earn some revenue. The main aim of our missile defence technology is to deter Indian aggression, soft or hard.


I would suggest we should tip the warheads with tactical nuclear ones, Indians will lov it


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## NomanAli89



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## Ultima Thule

Ali.009 said:


> Why not test it for real and hit few Indian HQ's close to LOC that are constantly causing mischief and killing civilians. This nation has created these missiles through their blood and now these missiles are good for NOTHING. If our Army cant really deter India aggression with them then put these missiles in a museum and earn some revenue. The main aim of our missile defence technology is to deter Indian aggression, soft or hard.


Are you insane or something that means we have full fledged *NUCLEAR WAR* you idiot


----------



## F86 Saber

It is p


pakistanipower said:


> Are you insane or something that means we have full fledged *NUCLEAR WAR* you idiot



It is people like him who make the world think that our Nuclear arsenal is not safe.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Bratva said:


> What happened to Sub Launch CM and BM series ?


We just got ability to hit at sea targets., This Day is not far, we will soon see tests from submarines.
Also we are receiving first submarine from china after 2 years. One by one until we reach 4 and then remaining 4 from Karachi with the help of Chinese brothers.


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## Penguin

Mrc said:


> Nor does nato


SM-6? SM-2 block IV? These are ABM capable missiles, that's a realfast target.

The US Navy uses the SM-2 as its standard long range SAM on its destroyers. It has a range of 90+ km and uses a semi-active homing radar seeker which means that the mechanically scanning illuminators on board the warships should provide them with guidance. This proves to be a handicap as a Burke carries 3 centrally mounted SPG-62 illuminators which will find it difficult to deal with a multi-directional missile attack. [Note: Dutch, German, and Danish APAR equipped ships to not suffer this problem. Likewise Heracles equipped ships.] 
Normally, once the missile is detected at longer ranges if it is following a high altitude profile, multiple SM-2 missiles are launched to counter the threat. 2-3 SAMs are fired against subsonic threats, so it is safe to assume that 4-5 SAMs will be fired at a single incoming BrahMos missile. Again, the SM-2 wasn’t designed to handle a missile flying at 3 times the speed of sound but designed to handle Soviet missiles flying at 1-1.5 times the speed of sound. So it’s going to be a very difficult task to shoot down BrahMos, as the attacking party will launch the BrahMos ideally 120 km away from the Burke to ensure a complete sea-skimming flight and to delay detection.
The SM-6 is, however, is a different case and can intercept supersonic missiles at sea-skimming altitudes and high altitudes as well. This will be a key weapon for the US Navy to defend its fleet against missiles like the BrahMos. It uses active radar homing, with a radar seeker derived from AMRAAM. So, it does not need/use SPG-62 illuminators. 
Backing up the SM2 BLock IV is the 50km, quad packed ESSM, also with semi-active radar homing.
[Note: Incidentally, the best way to prevent a hit from Brahmos is to kill the launch platform. Both SM-2 and SM-6 can be used not just in anti-air/missile role but also in antiship role at ranges far exceeding that of the most common Harpoon versions. SM-2 Block IV: 120–185 km (similar to Harpoon). SM-6: 240–460 km (in excess of Harpoon). And then there is LRASM to consider: DARPA states its range is "greater than 200 nautical miles (370 km; 230 mi)." LRASM (Long range anti ship missile) is based on the (air launched) JASSM-ER, which has a range of 500 nmi (930 km; 580 mi). However, the addition of the sensor and other features will have somewhat decreased that range. It is estimated that the LRASM has a range of 300 nmi (560 km; 350 mi). Carrier aviation will be crucial in intercepting airbornn launch platforms at 600+km from surface ships]

See also https://defencyclopedia.com/2014/12...vy-can-shoot-down-the-deadly-brahmos-missile/

@The Deterrent :To compare Harpoon and ABL for Tomahawk.








Gregor Clegane said:


> Aster 30 and Barak 8 can.


If Aster 30 can, than so can Aster 15 (the only difference being that the latter has a smaller booster and hence shorter range)



TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> In its latest annual publication, the Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) disclosed that the Directorate General of Munitions Production (DGMP) was tasked with _“the indigenous developing of [one] ship-borne system with [one] Land Attack Missile and [one] Anti ship Missile.” _Development of this system is scheduled for completion by October 2018.


I don't think that refers specifically to the launch rack, but rather to 2 versions (land attack and antiship) of the Babur missile. If shipborn refers to surface vessel launch, the system shall include deck launcher. If shipborn refers to submarines, the system would use torpedotubes and some form of encapsulation of the missile(s). So, it depends on what exactly is meant by'ship born' .

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## Rafi

Bratva said:


> What happened to Sub Launch CM and BM series ?



It's been developed and tested. Nuff said (not officially).

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## 90ArsalanLeo

Jonah Arthur said:


> From sea? I think you mistakenly wrote it.



Yeah also from sea we can fire cruise missiles from F-22 frigates and as i heard it can also be torpedo tube launched from Agosta 90B


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## Burhan Wani

90ArsalanLeo said:


> Yeah also from sea we can fire cruise missiles from F-22 frigates and as i heard it can also be torpedo tube launched from Agosta 90B


Yes they can but we need some live test fires to confirm.


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## Reichsmarschall

I S I said:


> 700KM cruise missile looks short range to you? O bhai kya is pe baith ke US jaana hai kya?


Yar atleast poora india tou cover krna chaiye


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## I S I

Narendra Trump said:


> Yar atleast poora india tou cover krna chaiye


For that, we got Shaheen II. This is a stretegic weapon to target stretegic installations like bases, radar installations & underground bunkers.


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## barbarosa

The ene


I S I said:


> For that, we got Shaheen II. This is a stretegic weapon to target stretegic installations like bases, radar installations & underground bunkers.[/QUOT
> The enemy will target our cities and residential areas, we should prepare Missile according to the count of cities of enemy country, we should hit their long distance cities including their installations.


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## xyxmt

F86 Saber said:


> It is p
> 
> 
> It is people like him who make the world think that our Nuclear arsenal is not safe.



your arsenal is considered unsafe because you are Muslim i doubt anyone in the world is reading PDF for making their policies. Indians throw more nuclear threats than Pakistan but their is considered safe...so dont pay attention to what world thinks, world cant do jack about it.

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## AUz

Rafi said:


> It's been developed and tested. Nuff said (not officially).



Is there any submarine launched ballistic missile program going on too?

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## fanna4paf2

on every top cruise missile list bramos on 1st what it is really on first in performance see in this top 5 cruise missile list


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## Rafi

AUz said:


> Is there any submarine launched ballistic missile program going on too?



The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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## War Thunder

fanna4paf2 said:


> on every top cruise missile list bramos on 1st what it is really on first in performance see in this top 5 cruise missile list


because all those lists are from indian based youtube channels

and people here to calm down when picking things from youtube...those lists and news are just there to sell views....not offer you some logical information...

(I'm an internet marketer with a few youtube channels)


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## KediKesenFare3

Congratulations! Reading such news from Pakistan makes my day more enjoyable. Having internal trouble may worry you but being capable of defending the country against any attacks from the outside should remind you of all the achievements _our _Pakistan reached so far regardless of the ground realities. This is what makes Pakistan kinda unique.

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## Riz

About 6 years ago one of my friend who is in navy told me that we tested a missile from sea to land from one of agusta submarine, and he told me that the range of that missile was 1500 NM. He did not told me which missile that was

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## Penguin

fanna4paf2 said:


> on every top cruise missile list bramos on 1st what it is really on first in performance see in this top 5 cruise missile list




Lists made by amateurs, no doubt.

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## AUz

riz1978 said:


> About 6 years ago one of my friend who is in navy told me that we tested a missile from sea to land from one of agusta submarine, and he told me that the range of that missile was 1500 NM. He did not told me which missile that was



1500NM is more than Shaheen-III's range lols.

You are either forgetting something or your friend doesn't know better. 

Regardless, it's better to not say such things on public forums.

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## Riz

AUz said:


> 1500NM is more than Shaheen-III's range lols.
> 
> You are either forgetting something or your friend doesn't know better.
> 
> Regardless, it's better to not say such things on public forums.





AUz said:


> 1500NM is more than Shaheen-III's range lols.
> 
> You are either forgetting something or your friend doesn't know better.
> 
> Regardless, it's better to not say such things on public forums.


 Lol did not we surprised when we came to know we tested a Babur cruise missile first time ? Bhai koi bat nhi aj kal koi ksi jagha bullet bhi fire karta ha to dunya ko khabar hoti ha , just wait and see as we r going to test a bigger ucv near future

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Rafi said:


> The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
> But I have promises to keep,
> And miles to go before I sleep,
> And miles to go before I sleep.


One of my most favorite lines. Alas! Dunya is such a place that very very few can cover all those precious miles....

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## war&peace

riz1978 said:


> About 6 years ago one of my friend who is in navy told me that we tested a missile from sea to land from one of agusta submarine, and he told me that the range of that missile was 1500 NM. He did not told me which missile that was


1500 NM means 2778 km which is slightly more than the declared range of Shaheen III i.e. 2750 km...well we can say may be a naval version of it.


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## faithfulguy

Congrats for a successful test. Also, for not open up hundreds of threads about this test and brag about it before even conduct the test like you know who.

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## Cool_Soldier

war&peace said:


> 1500 NM means 2778 km which is slightly more than the declared range of Shaheen III i.e. 2750 km...well we can say may be a naval version of it.



Currently PN subs don't have capability to fire cruise or Ballistic missiles.
It looks fake info


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## faithfulguy

Power.pack said:


> while babur is tested successfully
> brahmos is ready to increase its ranges. war of cruse missile on fire.



Can you Indians stop bring up Brahmos every other post.

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## hussain0216

Power.pack said:


> while babur is tested successfully
> brahmos is ready to increase its ranges. war of cruse missile on fire.



Please dont compare a "dumb" missile like Brahmos to a cruise missile like Babur v2


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## dilpakistani

i don't a see reason to worry about it's range... more than 90% of indian strategic military installation relevant to Pakistan are well with in it's range. 700 Km means we can target all major and ports of India which can cause trouble for us. As soon as it is mounted on subs and ships we would be able to target other outta reach area with that range..


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## Taimoor Khan

HAKIKAT said:


> One of my most favorite lines. Alas! Dunya is such a place that very very few can cover all those precious miles....



Yet Dunya is the dump of the universe.

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## war&peace

Suno Na said:


> I wish you know the size of SIII before posting this reply, missile of such big size needs world's largest B.M missile subs which we don't have and neither planned for next decades.


I know it very well kiddo..it was in a certain context..it was a reply to someone's post...so don't be misguided


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## war&peace

Suno Na said:


> OK
> But I am not a Kid.


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## MastanKhan

Suno Na said:


> OK
> But I am not a Kid.



Hi,

Indeed. Welcome to the forum----first @messiach and now you----. Tell us a little bit about your background----. Thank you.

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## SleepingLion

Looks like a candy flying into a Kids mouth

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## Ali.009

pakistanipower said:


> ------My upper portion is empty----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F86 Saber said:
> 
> 
> 
> ---Mine too---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Both of you goons could not grasp my sarcasm

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## CHINA83NEWS

Ghazwa e Hind said:


> Stick to the thread for more news.
> 
> Pakistan tested advanced Cruise Missile Babar-II. Missile can hit the targets at land and sea and have a range of 700 kilometers. This missile can work without the help of GPS.
> 
> CJCSC also witnessed the missile test.


Inertial guidance


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## somebozo

Isnt Babur what India is trying to do with Nirbhay? Launch like a rocket with solid booster and then fly like a glider? 
Also when are we sending some of these babies to Afghanistan for deeper strike?


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## Godman

fanna4paf2 said:


> on every top cruise missile list bramos on 1st what it is really on first in performance see in this top 5 cruise missile list



First the video no longer exists , second ANYONE can put a video but there many other factors including ones that we dont have much info about like electronics. Its impossible to judge a missile by its range ,speed or payload(The released info can be overstated or understated). Also different countries have different requirements.


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## Hurshid Celebi

Is it possible that internal navigation sytems INS are as precise as GPS systems ?
Is a GPS chip already available that is working with all running systems ?
How many satellites do we need for global coverage ( at least 6 ?)


We can add to US GPS- Navstar ;

GLONASS – Russia's global navigation system. Fully operational worldwide.
Galileo – a global system being developed by the European Union and other partner countries, which began operation in 2016 (and is expected to be fully deployed by 2020)
Beidou – People's Republic of China's regional system, currently limited to Asia and the West Pacific,
global coverage planned to be operational by 2020
NAVIC – India's regional navigation system, covering India and Northern Indian Ocean
QZSS – Japanese regional system covering Asia and Oceania


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hurshid Celebi said:


> Is it possible that internal navigation sytems INS are as precise as GPS systems ?
> Is a GPS chip already available that is working with all running systems ?
> How many satellites do we need for global coverage ( at least 6 ?)
> 
> 
> We can add to US GPS- Navstar ;
> 
> GLONASS – Russia's global navigation system. Fully operational worldwide.
> Galileo – a global system being developed by the European Union and other partner countries, which began operation in 2016 (and is expected to be fully deployed by 2020)
> Beidou – People's Republic of China's regional system, currently limited to Asia and the West Pacific,
> global coverage planned to be operational by 2020
> NAVIC – India's regional navigation system, covering India and Northern Indian Ocean
> QZSS – Japanese regional system covering Asia and Oceania



Dude we tested a new SLCM today... Babur III












Babur I = ground to ground
Babur II = anti ship CM
Babur III = Sub launched CM

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## Hurshid Celebi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Dude we tested a new SLCM today... Babur III



Very impressive and my congratulations. I read about it. My question was related to guidance . 
INS + GPS + Tercom ?

Is TERCOM integrated ? TERCOM is the most critical, so you can target without GPS .
But you need dedicated image processing computers on this missile .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hurshid Celebi said:


> Very impressive and my congratulations. I read about it. My question was related to guidance .
> INS + GPS + Tercom ?
> 
> Is TERCOM integrated ? TERCOM is the most critical, so you can target without GPS .
> But you need dedicated image processing computers on this missile .


Yes *TERCOM+INS+GPS +DSMAC (Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation) * is there...

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## Eagle+Viper



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## Reichsmarschall

90ArsalanLeo said:


> we dont have submarines capable of firing SLBM or SLCM i hope the new chinese subs can give us that ability


we have SLCM its called babur 3

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## jamal18

Maxpane said:


> Why dnt they increase long range missile?



Er... they just did....

A cruise missile, I believe works out a lot cheaper than a conventional missile. Air- launched even more, because they are not expending power getting off the ground. A lot more bang per buck.

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## Reichsmarschall

Oscar said:


> The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all


are you sure?



Penguin said:


> Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.


right after one month of babur testing PN did tested a slcm

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## Penguin

Narendra Trump said:


> right after one month of babur testing PN did tested a slcm


Irrelevant, esp. when you take my (old) post oout of context.

Post 187, Dec 14, 2016 
Oscar said: 
The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
Penguin answered
Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.

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## The Accountant

So then by which platform Pakistan tested the missile and whats the use of testing the missiles if it cannot be deployed in next 6 years at minimum ? Can you please provide but details...


Penguin said:


> Irrelevant, esp. when you take my (old) post oout of context.
> 
> Post 187, Dec 14, 2016
> Oscar said:
> The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
> Penguin answered
> Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.

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## Penguin

The Accountant said:


> So then by which platform Pakistan tested the missile and whats the use of testing the missiles if it cannot be deployed in next 6 years at minimum ? Can you please provide but details...


For starters, one does not necessarily require an operation submarine to conduct an underwater launch. India, for example, tested its launch silo's for SLBMs using a _pontoon_ submerged more than 30 metres deep in the sea. Testing could in principle also have involve a friendly navy's submarine (if the test was conducted 'out of area'). So, you can see that there are some steps/assumptions between an underwater launch test as a given and the conclusion that current PN boats have Babur. The earlier discussion, from which you took that old quote, was about the question whether currenntly operational PN boats (submarines) have a functional Babur capability. And the apparent answer was: no. Do not confuse testing with operational deployment. There's a lot in between.

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## The Accountant

Penguin said:


> For starters, one does not necessarily require an operation submarine to conduct an underwater launch. India, for example, tested its launch silo's for SLBMs using a _pontoon_ submerged more than 30 metres deep in the sea. Testing could in principle also have involve a friendly navy's submarine (if the test was conducted 'out of area'). So, you can see that there are some steps/assumptions between an underwater launch test as a given and the conclusion that current PN boats have Babur. The earlier discussion, from which you took that old quote, was about the question whether currenntly operational PN boats (submarines) have a functional Babur capability. And the apparent answer was: no. Do not confuse testing with operational deployment. There's a lot in between.


But does it make sense to test a weapon and disclose it when we do not have ability to use it atleast for half a decade at minimum ? Furthermore, why agosta cannot fire babur ? Is this due to dimensions or some restrictions ?

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## Mrc

This missile was being tested since 2006... when one of tests were picked up by US navy and they mistook it for harpoon being modified for land attack and requested an inspection of harpoons which was agreed and allowed....

This is a mature weapon but I don't know which sub is firing it....

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## Safriz

Mrc said:


> This missile was being tested since 2006... when one of tests were picked up by US navy and they mistook it for harpoon being modified for land attack and requested an inspection of harpoons which was agreed and allowed....
> 
> This is a mature weapon but I don't know which sub is firing it....


and still they destroyed the suspected P-3C orions, the exact same serial numbers which were inspected and e cleared.

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## Penguin

The Accountant said:


> But does it make sense to test a weapon and disclose it when we do not have ability to use it atleast for half a decade at minimum ? Furthermore, why agosta cannot fire babur ? Is this due to dimensions or some restrictions ?


Any SSK with 533mm tubes can in principle fire eg Harpoon or Exocet from underwater. But that doesn't mean any and all SSKs are fitted for these missile i.e. have an operational capability.

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## niaz

شاھین میزایل said:


> and still they destroyed the suspected P-3C orions, the exact same serial numbers which were inspected and e cleared.



Hon Sir,

With due respect, do I understand that you mean to say that the Americans who supplied PC-3 Orions in the first place arranged with Taliban to destroy 3 of these planes in the May 2011 attack on Mehran Naval Base?

Pak Navy’s current fleet of PC-3’s is 7. Does it ever make one wonder as to why would the US subsequently replace two of the PC-3 lost in the attack? All the PC-3's have the same capability, why single one out?
Is it possible that this particular aircraft was destroyed because it happened to be parked at Mehran base at the time of the attack?


“Pakistan’s P-3 Orion Maritime Aircraft – and their Harpoons”

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/pakistans-p-3-orions-05972/

“US to replace two P3C Orion aircraft”

https://www.dawn.com/news/637216

Most people including the Taliban consider it as revenge attack in response to the killing of OBL.

“Taliban spokesman Ehsanullah Ehsan claimed responsibility for the attack, and called it a revenge of the killing of Osama bin Laden.”

https://tribune.com.pk/story/174808/pns-mehran-attack-vulnerable-embarrassed-and-targeted/

However in a free country one is free to believe whatever one wishes. I would simply call it a flight of fancy.

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## The Accountant

niaz said:


> Hon Sir,
> 
> With due respect, do I understand that you mean to say that the Americans who supplied PC-3 Orions in the first place arranged with Taliban to destroy 3 of these planes in the May 2011 attack on Mehran Naval Base?
> 
> Pak Navy’s current fleet of PC-3’s is 7. Does it ever make one wonder as to why would the US subsequently replace two of the PC-3 lost in the attack? All the PC-3's have the same capability, why single one out?
> Is it possible that this particular aircraft was destroyed because it happened to be parked at Mehran base at the time of the attack?
> 
> 
> “Pakistan’s P-3 Orion Maritime Aircraft – and their Harpoons”
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/pakistans-p-3-orions-05972/
> 
> “US to replace two P3C Orion aircraft”
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/637216
> 
> Most people including the Taliban consider it as revenge attack in response to the killing of OBL.
> 
> “Taliban spokesman Ehsanullah Ehsan claimed responsibility for the attack, and called it a revenge of the killing of Osama bin Laden.”
> 
> https://tribune.com.pk/story/174808/pns-mehran-attack-vulnerable-embarrassed-and-targeted/
> 
> However in a free country one is free to believe whatever one wishes. I would simply call it a flight of fancy.


Agreed that Americans involvement in this case does not seems to be reality but apparently but what about indian involvement ... revenge could be done against fighter aircrafts which were real threat to TTP but these P3C Orions for them were like other transport aircrafts ... why would they plan to do such an aircraft ?

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## niaz

The Accountant said:


> Agreed that Americans involvement in this case does not seems to be reality but apparently but what about indian involvement ... revenge could be done against fighter aircrafts which were real threat to TTP but these P3C Orions for them were like other transport aircrafts ... why would they plan to do such an aircraft ?



Indian involvement is very plausible. Additionally target selection / choice of where & when to attack would depend upon where the access was relatively easy. Apparently Mehran base was a softer target compared to a fighter base such as Mauripur.

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## The Accountant

niaz said:


> Indian involvement is very plausible. Additionally target selection / choice of where & when to attack would depend upon where the access was relatively easy. Apparently Mehran base was a softer target compared to a fighter base such as Mauripur.


But still motives are always first thing to count in at the start of investigation ... these are not random attacks but clear thought strategy which is exactly matching with indian plans ... for example on Sirilankan team is one big example... it gave no advantage to TTP infact it created negativity in the masses against them on the other hand destroying Pakistani circket was an steps towards isolation of Pakistan ...

Funding of TTP by indians is a well established fact. I am strong advocate that TTP is our internal problem and its we who failed to provide a just balance system of education, justice and equality to the mases which resulted in gap capitalized by these terrorists organization but i am also strong propogator of the fact that India and Israel (indirectly) are very much behind these ...


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## The Deterrent

The Accountant said:


> But does it make sense to test a weapon and disclose it when we do not have ability to use it atleast for half a decade at minimum ? Furthermore, why agosta cannot fire babur ? Is this due to dimensions or some restrictions ?


Agosta-90Bs can and will fire Babur-III SLCM when its ready for induction. You don't put a test weapon on a submarine for trials. As the press release stated, a mobile underwater platform was used.


Mrc said:


> This missile was being tested since 2006... when one of tests were picked up by US navy and they mistook it for harpoon being modified for land attack and requested an inspection of harpoons which was agreed and allowed....
> 
> This is a mature weapon but I don't know which sub is firing it....


True that the first tries were attempted around 2007, but the approach was abandoned. 
The event you mention happened in 2008-9, not 2006. And that event had nothing to do with Babur.

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## The Accountant

Sir thanks for the updates ... i was also not convinced from Penguin's deduction as it is totally senseless to disclose a weapon which cannot be deployed in near future 
.. infact why would i will try to develop such a weapon which cannot be fired ...


The Deterrent said:


> Agosta-90Bs can and will fire Babur-III SLCM when its ready for induction. You don't put a test weapon on a submarine for trials. As the press release stated, a mobile underwater platform was used.
> 
> True that the first tries were attempted around 2007, but the approach was abandoned.
> The event you mention happened in 2008-9, not 2006. And that event had nothing to do with Babur.

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## The Deterrent

The Accountant said:


> Sir thanks for the updates ... i was also not convinced from Penguin's deduction as it is totally senseless to disclose a weapon which cannot be deployed in near future
> .. infact why would i will try to develop such a weapon which cannot be fired ...


I don't think it was @Penguin 's opinion, he was quoting somebody else.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Nice to have Babur ready for deployment from any platform such a versatile Missile


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## Penguin

The Accountant said:


> Sir thanks for the updates ... i was also not convinced from Penguin's deduction as it is totally senseless to disclose a weapon which cannot be deployed in near future
> .. infact why would i will try to develop such a weapon which cannot be fired ...


Kindly quote where I have stated that. It is not my fault you do not understand what I have been saying.



The Deterrent said:


> Agosta-90Bs can and will fire Babur-III SLCM when its ready for induction. You don't put a test weapon on a submarine for trials. As the press release stated, a mobile underwater platform was used.


Agosta 90B is known to be able to fire antiship missiles.
Is there any hard evidence to support the contention that it has actually been fitted for and given Babur?

As I have indicated before ANY SSK can in principle fire such a weapon, provided it fits the tubes and provided the sub has actually been equipped for firing it (i.e. modifications to CMS and fire control systems)

If anyone fails to comprehend my posts, please ask me to clarify for you.

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## MULUBJA

Congrats to Pakistani members.

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## The Accountant

Penguin said:


> Irrelevant, esp. when you take my (old) post oout of context.
> 
> Post 187, Dec 14, 2016
> Oscar said:
> The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
> Penguin answered
> Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.





Penguin said:


> For starters, one does not necessarily require an operation submarine to conduct an underwater launch. India, for example, tested its launch silo's for SLBMs using a _pontoon_ submerged more than 30 metres deep in the sea. Testing could in principle also have involve a friendly navy's submarine (if the test was conducted 'out of area'). So, you can see that there are some steps/assumptions between an underwater launch test as a given and the conclusion that current PN boats have Babur. The earlier discussion, from which you took that old quote, was about the question whether currenntly operational PN boats (submarines) have a functional Babur capability. And the apparent answer was: no. Do not confuse testing with operational deployment. There's a lot in between.


From both of above post my understanding is tou are advocating that agosta do not have the capability to fire babur however, i am not convinced that Pakistan will disclose a missile without having the capability to fire it ... 

If my understanding of your post is incorrect kindly let me know ...


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## Penguin

The Accountant said:


> From both of above post my understanding is tou are advocating that agosta do not have the capability to fire babur however, i am not convinced that Pakistan will disclose a missile without having the capability to fire it ...
> 
> If my understanding of your post is incorrect kindly let me know ...


Post 187, Dec 14, 2016
Oscar said: The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
Penguin answered: Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.

So here it is @Oscar that states current subs (Agosta 70 and 90B) aren't meant to fire Babur at all. I am taking his word for it and the logical conclusion is that no currently [meaning: on Dec. 14, 2016] operational PN subs actually have received and can fire Babur [as in, have had the require fire control console(s) installed and integrated with the boat's command system]. That is pretty obvious.

It makes a lot of sense to announce the missile even if no current boats are currently operational with it, as it creates the impression, the possibility that the missile may be or actually is operational. I.e. as a bluff or to keep the opposite number guessing.

Apparently, you are unable to distinguisk between something being possible in theory (any SSK can fire a cruise missile in principle), something technically proven (e.g. a missile worked in a test, which may or may not have involved an actual submarine - we don't know this - but which shows we, the PN, have the technology) and something that is operational on a day to day basis (PNs current submarines carry and can effectively launch Babur).

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## Mrc

The Deterrent said:


> True that the first tries were attempted around 2007, but the approach was abandoned.
> The event you mention happened in 2008-9, not 2006. And that event had nothing to do with Babur




US awacs picked up a missile moving from sea to inland Pakistan.... they presumed that Pakistan has tweaked harpoon ASh for land attack... presumption was wrong...

was it babur 3? I don't know... but babur would have definitely benefited from those experiments


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## The Accountant

Penguin said:


> Post 187, Dec 14, 2016
> Oscar said: The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
> Penguin answered: Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.
> 
> So here it is @Oscar that states current subs (Agosta 70 and 90B) aren't meant to fire Babur at all. I am taking his word for it and the logical conclusion is that no currently [meaning: on Dec. 14, 2016] operational PN subs actually have received and can fire Babur [as in, have had the require fire control console(s) installed and integrated with the boat's command system]. That is pretty obvious.
> 
> It makes a lot of sense to announce the missile even if no current boats are currently operational with it, as it creates the impression, the possibility that the missile may be or actually is operational. I.e. as a bluff or to keep the opposite number guessing.
> 
> Apparently, you are unable to distinguisk between something being possible in theory (any SSK can fire a cruise missile in principle), something technically proven (e.g. a missile worked in a test, which may or may not have involved an actual submarine - we don't know this - but which shows we, the PN, have the technology) and something that is operational on a day to day basis (PNs current submarines carry and can effectively launch Babur).


Thanks for the details, its clear now.

One question , if a US AWACS can pickup the missile launch and trace it in 2009 then isnt it something to worry about as babur is supposed to be stealthy and given the subsonic it has to adopt a stealthy flight profile but if US can detect it without entering our EEZ then how sure we are that Indians cannot detect it unless it is closed to target ...


The Deterrent said:


> Agosta-90Bs can and will fire Babur-III SLCM when its ready for induction. You don't put a test weapon on a submarine for trials. As the press release stated, a mobile underwater platform was used.
> 
> True that the first tries were attempted around 2007, but the approach was abandoned.
> The event you mention happened in 2008-9, not 2006. And that event had nothing to do with Babur.

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## SQ8

The Deterrent said:


> Agosta-90Bs can and will fire Babur-III SLCM when its ready for induction. You don't put a test weapon on a submarine for trials. As the press release stated, a mobile underwater platform was used.
> 
> True that the first tries were attempted around 2007, but the approach was abandoned.
> The event you mention happened in 2008-9, not 2006. And that event had nothing to do with Babur.


Not exactly- not until the tubes are changed for it



Penguin said:


> Post 187, Dec 14, 2016
> Oscar said: The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
> Penguin answered: Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.
> 
> So here it is @Oscar that states current subs (Agosta 70 and 90B) aren't meant to fire Babur at all. I am taking his word for it and the logical conclusion is that no currently [meaning: on Dec. 14, 2016] operational PN subs actually have received and can fire Babur [as in, have had the require fire control console(s) installed and integrated with the boat's command system]. That is pretty obvious.
> 
> It makes a lot of sense to announce the missile even if no current boats are currently operational with it, as it creates the impression, the possibility that the missile may be or actually is operational. I.e. as a bluff or to keep the opposite number guessing.
> 
> Apparently, you are unable to distinguisk between something being possible in theory (any SSK can fire a cruise missile in principle), something technically proven (e.g. a missile worked in a test, which may or may not have involved an actual submarine - we don't know this - but which shows we, the PN, have the technology) and something that is operational on a day to day basis (PNs current submarines carry and can effectively launch Babur).


The easiest way was modification of the Tubes, the dolphin class had it done for the popeye.

But so far, whatever mobile underwater platform tested the Babur- it was not the Agosta imo.


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## The Deterrent

Penguin said:


> Agosta 90B is known to be able to fire antiship missiles.
> Is there any hard evidence to support the contention that it has actually been fitted for and given Babur?
> 
> As I have indicated before ANY SSK can in principle fire such a weapon, provided it fits the tubes and provided the sub has actually been equipped for firing it (i.e. modifications to CMS and fire control systems).


Given the state of secrecy surrounding Pakistan's special weapons programs, its hard to find any credible evidence for anything. That said, the day Pakistan Navy launches the weapon via an Agosta-90B, it will be clearly shown and stated.
Right now it is still in developmental phase, and probably will have one or two more _mobile-underwater-platform_ launches before deployment trials.


Mrc said:


> US awacs picked up a missile moving from sea to inland Pakistan.... they presumed that Pakistan has tweaked harpoon ASh for land attack... presumption was wrong...
> 
> was it babur 3? I don't know... but babur would have definitely benefited from those experiments


Not exactly, the US didn't detect anything. Moles in the prestigious military do their job just fine.


Oscar said:


> Not exactly- not until the tubes are changed for it


Sir I'm afraid your information is a bit outdated, Babur (without capsule) was 520mm from day one. However the Babur-II sure was a bit long for the tubes, thats why we saw a reduction of range in Babur-III. So there is no need to change any tubes, the only problem was the integration with firing control systems which has probably been solved.

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## Penguin

The Accountant said:


> Thanks for the details, its clear now.
> 
> One question , if a US AWACS can pickup the missile launch and trace it in 2009 then isnt it something to worry about as babur is supposed to be stealthy and given the subsonic it has to adopt a stealthy flight profile but if US can detect it without entering our EEZ then how sure we are that Indians cannot detect it unless it is closed to target ...


Babur is a lot like Tomahawk and YJ-62, neither of which is a particularly stealthy design.







as compared to e.g. JASSM-ER/LRASM


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## SQ8

The Deterrent said:


> Given the state of secrecy surrounding Pakistan's special weapons programs, its hard to find any credible evidence for anything. That said, the day Pakistan Navy launches the weapon via an Agosta-90B, it will be clearly shown and stated.
> Right now it is still in developmental phase, and probably will have one or two more _mobile-underwater-platform_ launches before deployment trials.
> 
> Not exactly, the US didn't detect anything. Moles in the prestigious military do their job just fine.
> 
> Sir I'm afraid your information is a bit outdated, Babur (without capsule) was 520mm from day one. However the Babur-II sure was a bit long for the tubes, thats why we saw a reduction of range in Babur-III. So there is no need to change any tubes, the only problem was the integration with firing control systems which has probably been solved.


I still think it was not the 90B that did it. We might have borrowed a platform for a bit(there was something in the area during those times). The 90Bs could fire the weapons once their refit goes through which could involve anything and everything. 

On a side note, we will have a severely limited sub surface capability for the next 10 years while all the upgrades and new procurement go through.

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## ziaulislam

Oscar said:


> I still think it was not the 90B that did it. We might have borrowed a platform for a bit(there was something in the area during those times). The 90Bs could fire the weapons once their refit goes through which could involve anything and everything.
> 
> On a side note, we will have a severely limited sub surface capability for the next 10 years while all the upgrades and new procurement go through.


new ones are coming in 2022
we have more problems in surface fleet with no replacement in sight after refusal of 6 OHP from USA

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## The Deterrent

Oscar said:


> I still think it was not the 90B that did it. We might have borrowed a platform for a bit(there was something in the area during those times). The 90Bs could fire the weapons once their refit goes through which could involve anything and everything.
> 
> On a side note, we will have a severely limited sub surface capability for the next 10 years while all the upgrades and new procurement go through.


Of course it wasn't a 90B, I've maintained that since the test. The weapon was fired via an indigenously developed mobile underwater platform, exactly what the press release states it to be.

Thats true, Pakistan's second-strike capability will remain severely limited until Hangors arrive.

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## Safriz

Chinese testbed , type 032 also went through some changes recently.






The sail was straight previously.


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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

The Deterrent said:


> Given the state of secrecy surrounding Pakistan's special weapons programs, its hard to find any credible evidence for anything. That said, the day Pakistan Navy launches the weapon via an Agosta-90B, it will be clearly shown and stated.
> Right now it is still in developmental phase, and probably will have one or two more _mobile-underwater-platform_ launches before deployment trials.
> 
> Not exactly, the US didn't detect anything. Moles in the prestigious military do their job just fine.
> 
> Sir I'm afraid your information is a bit outdated, Babur (without capsule) was 520mm from day one. However the Babur-II sure was a bit long for the tubes, thats why we saw a reduction of range in Babur-III. So there is no need to change any tubes, the only problem was the integration with firing control systems which has probably been solved.


For your Kind information Babur I, II and III share the same length and width.

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## The Deterrent

Yerusalem 4880 Kms said:


> For your Kind information Babur I, II and III share the same length and width.


Oh my.
Say hi to the Israelis from me when you reach 'Yerusalem'.


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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

The Deterrent said:


> Oh my.
> Say hi to the Israelis from me when you reach 'Yerusalem'.


Yeah Sure and my gun will pay regards on behalf of you.
Any source or link to disprove my finding about the length of Babur C.M?


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## The Deterrent

Yerusalem 4880 Kms said:


> Yeah Sure and my gun will pay regards on behalf of you.
> Any source or link to disprove my finding about the length of Babur C.M?


Don't hurt yourself by the recoil while you do so, they probably don't have free healthcare for delusional people.

None at all, I give in. Babur is _indeed _as you say it is.

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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

The Deterrent said:


> Don't hurt yourself by the recoil


I am not burger kidy so no worry.


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## ghazi768

In submarines, safety is of paramount importance.. You do not fire a test missile from a deployed submarine critical to your force posture, you use something older or modified. That still does not mean that the deployed submarines will not get the missiles you tested when you are confidant that they meet the safety standards.. What is the bloody use of copying a 520mm cruise missile if you cannot, in the end after tests, fire it from a 533mm torpedo tube.

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## razgriz19

Penguin said:


> Babur is a lot like Tomahawk and YJ-62, neither of which is a particularly stealthy design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as compared to e.g. JASSM-ER/LRASM


It's only stealthy as its flight profile allows it to be

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