# Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion



## The Eagle

During an interview with Rana Mubashir-Aaj News, Mr. Temel Kotil, President & CEO TAI said that TF-X is now a “Turkish-Pakistani fighter”. Dr. Rizwan Riaz (AVM) Pro Dir RIC & VP NSTP adds that it is a 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft in which Pakistan & Turkiye are now collaborating. The link to TV program is as follows along with a documentary picture being shared on the Forum.






In above TV Program, the concerns have talked about the level of collaboration from the ground level to exchange program. However, details are not being shared in depth but it helps to have a bit of idea about cooperation between both countries.








*A little background about Pakistan Turkiye possible collaboration in TFX*

Back in 2017, ACM Sohail Aman said:

_"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.*
The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends."
"I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.
While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia.* We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.*"






Two fronts – one mission | Bol Narratives







web.archive.org




_
Then after in 2019, during an interview with Alan Warnes, PAC Kamra Chairman, AM Ahmer Shahzad says as follows.





In view of above statements/interviews, it appears that Pakistan - Turkiye collaboration was discussed before as well and what CEO TAI recently revealed is not totally a new development.

*Project AZM*

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has formally announced it will commence development of a 5th-generation fighter, medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and munitions under the banner of “Project Azm” (i.e. resolve or determination).
AvDI’s long-term endeavour is clearly the 5th-generation fighter program (FGF). In the past several years, several factors emerged which analysts thought would shape the PAF’s next-generation fighter pursuits, most notably the rise of the AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon. While the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) is clearly progressing in developing the fighter, it is unclear if the PAF will pursue it. If not the FC-31, then realistically only two other alternate courses remain: the TAI TFX and an original design.
Pakistan has been billed as a prospective partner in the TFX, Turkey’s next-generation fighter effort. On repeated occasions since 2016, Turkish government and industry and Pakistan MoDP officials confirmed the link. However, the Pakistan MoDP’s statements regarding the matter had only verified Ankara’s invitation, but it was unclear if the approach was commercially oriented (akin to PAC’s work in supplying Anka parts) or in relation to possible PAF procurement.
The PAF itself did not comment on TFX, but aviation journalist Alan Warnes (who is directly in touch with the PAF) reported in May that the TFX is “likely to figure in the PAF’s new generation fighter requirement.”

The following details is hereby quoted and copied from Wikipedia as a refresher and for the ease of readers.


*From the original source **TF - TUSAS*






In order to meet Turkish Air Force (TurAF) requirements beyond 2030s, an indigenous design and development program aims to replace the aging F-16 fleet of TurAF.

Within the scope of TF-X Program, Turkey will become one of the few countries to possess the necessary technologies, engineering infrastructure and production capabilities. Once the engineering activities on all the critical technologies are accomplished (e.g. increased situational awareness, sensor fusion, low observability, weapon bay, …etc), which are needed by a 5th generation (or beyond) jet fighter aircraft.

TF-X aircraft is planned to be kept operational in the TurAF inventory until 2070s and will be interoperable with other critical assets of TurAF such as F-35As.

The TF-X indigenous design and development program prime contract between Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) of Ministry of Turkish National Defence and Turkish Aerospace has been signed on 5th of August 2016.

The timing of this signature alone, is a key demonstrator of Turkey’s determination of running mega-projects uninterruptedly, even under extra-ordinary conditions.

Currently, the prime contract covers the initial four (4) years (starting after signature of major subcontracts) which will end up with completion of preliminary design phase. Within this period beyond the design and development of TF-X Aircraft, engineering capabilities, technology development activities (for key sensors like radar, electronic warfare..etc.), test infrastructures establishment and certification processes will be performed and extensive capabilities for a new generation jet fighter design, development and production will be gained by Turkish industry.

TF-X aircraft will be a multi-role aircraft, it will be designed mainly for air-to-air role with a consideration to air-to-surface roles as well. Upon engineering analysis, TF-X aircraft will be a multi-role aircraft, it will be designed mainly for air-to-air role with a consideration to air-to-surface roles as well. Upon engineering analysis, preliminary calculations, based on received information of suppliers of candidate engines, TF-X aircraft is decided to be a twin engine configuration.

Turkish Fighter-TF, the 5+ Generation Multirole Fighter Aircraft, provides significant capabilities in both Air to Surface and Air to Air combat requirements. Turkish Aerospace’s survivable, strong and agile platform Turkish Fighter is a fully aware warrior, with intelligent and strong combat capabilities.

Turkish Fighter provides air dominance through:

- Increased air to air engagement ranges with Novel Weapons
- Precise and accurate weapon firing from internal weapon bays at high/supersonic speed
- Augmented lethality with support of Artificial Intelligence and Neural Networks.

_Other information including Features & Technical data can be found on official website by visiting the given link as above._

Article in Combat Aircraft on TF-X from January




















Turkey's most popular defense industry and military aviation news platform disclses as follows.
The first prototype of National Combat Aircraft (MMU) will reach the assembly phase by the end of this year.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490416128153296900

Development Schedule Overview (Wikipedia)​Development Phase-1 was expected to officially commence by the end of 2014,[37] however, initial conditions were met and the project has officially started in late 2018.

On June 30, 2021, Turkish Air Force made an official presentation about the TF-X program to the press. In the presentation, it was stated that Phase-1 Stage-1 had started with preliminary design works, right after T0 stage. As part of preliminary design activities, system requirements review (SRR) is currently being carried out. By the end of 2022, system functionality review (SFR) and system requirements review (SRR) will be completed. Thus, the preliminary design activities will come to an end. The program is expected to go to the next stage by 2023 when the initial roll-out occurs with engines capable of taxiing.[1]

Phase-1 Stage-2 involves detailed design and qualifications carried out in the 2022-2029 period. The aircraft will roll out in 2023, critical design review (CDR) activities will be carried out in 2024, the production of the first aircraft, called Block-0, will be completed in 2025 and the first flight will be accomplished in 2026. Until that date, TAI aims to manufacture 3 prototypes.[1] The Block-1 configuration is planned to be developed until 2029. Manufacture of 10 Block-1 fighter jets are planned within the scope of Phase-2, and aircraft will be delivered to the Turkish Air Force between 2030 and 2033.[1] In Phase-3, between 2034 and 2040, development and mass production activities of other TF-X blocks is planned.[1]

Design​TF-X is the first 5th-generation aircraft involving digital twin technology for the design and production.[38][39]

Requirements​In June 2021, Turkish Air Force, in a presentation made to the press, announced its requirements for minimum capabilities of the TF-X.[1]


Improved aerodynamics and propulsion
Super-cruise
Sufficient and optimized combat radius
Advanced and internal multi-spectral sensors (EW and RF/IR)
Low observability
Sensor fusion and autonomy
Improved data-link capabilities for network enabled warfare
High precision stand-off weapons
Airframe​Hüseyin Yağcı, TAI's chief engineer on the TF-X program, has stated that all three conceptual designs thus far feature a design optimized for low radar cross-sectional density, internal weapons bays, and the ability to supercruise, features associated with fifth-generation fighter jets.[5]




Mockup, rear view
TAI's Advanced Carbon Composites fuselage facility, which was commissioned to produce fuselages for Lockheed Martin's Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) program,[40][41] has been tasked with developing an Advanced Carbon Composite fuselage for the TF-X. The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) has also issued a tender for the development of a new lighter carbon composite thermoplastic for the TF-X fuselage.[42]

Radar and sensors​ASELSAN is currently developing an advanced active electronically scanned array radar which will use gallium nitride (GaN) technology for the TF-X program.[43]

Avionics and equipment​The TF-X will be integrated from the cockpit to accompanying UAVs (most likely the TAI Anka) through encrypted datalink connections.[44] The aircraft will likely use upgraded variants of Aselsan's own radar warning receiver (RWR), missile warning system (MWS), laser warning system (LWS), chaff and flare management, dispensing system and digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system, which already deployed with the other air platforms.[45][46]

Propulsion​Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 engines until national ones are developed by TRMotor.[47][48] There are ongoing negotiations with Rolls-Royce on development of an engine for the TF-X.[49]

Preliminary specifications​_Data from_ Turkish Aerospace[50]

*General characteristics*


*Crew:* One pilot
*Length:* 21 m (68 ft 11 in)
*Wingspan:* 14 m (45 ft 11 in)
*Height:* 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
*Wing area:* 60 m2 (670 sq ft)
*Max takeoff weight:* 27,215 kg (60,000 lb)
*Powerplant:* 2 × General Electric F110 for test flights (national engines to be developed by TRMotor) , 120 kN (27,000 lbf) thrust each
*Performance*


*Maximum speed:* 2,222 km/h (1,381 mph, 1,200 kn)
*Maximum speed:* Mach 1.8[3]
*Combat range:* 1,100 km (690 mi, 600 nmi)
*Service ceiling:* 17,000 m (55,000[3] ft)
*g limits:* +9.0 g & -3.5 g
*Armament*


*Missiles:*
Air-to-air missiles:
GÖKTUĞ missile program:
Gökdoğan (Peregrine) BVR active radar homing
Gökhan BVR active radar homing
Akdoğan (Peregrine) BVR active radar homing
Bozdoğan (Merlin) short-range infrared homing

MBDA Meteor (BVRAAM)

Air-to-surface missiles:
SOM Cruise Missile (B1, B2, and J variants)
KUZGUN-TJ, Turbojet-powered Air-to-surface missile
KUZGUN-KY, Solid fuel Rocket-powered Air-to-surface missile
AKBABA, Air-to-surface, Anti-radiation Missile (ARM)
MBDA SPEAR-3


*Bombs:*
Teber-81 (Mark 81 bomb w/ ROKETSAN Laser Guidance Kit)
HGK-82 (Mark 82 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Precision Guidance Kit)
KGK-82 (Mark 82 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Wing Assisted Guidance Kit)
Teber-82 (Mark 82 bomb w/ ROKETSAN Laser Guidance Kit)[51]
HGK-83 (Mark 83 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Precision Guidance Kit
KGK-83 (Mark 83 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Wing Assisted Guidance Kit)[52]
HGK-84 (Mark 84 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Precision Guidance Kit)
LHGK-84 (Mark 84 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Laser Sensitive Guidance Kit
SARB-83, Bunker buster
NEB-84, Bunker buster
MAM (Smart Micro Munition) (MAM-T variant)
KUZGUN-SS, Glide bomb
ASELSAN Miniature Bomb

*Avionics*


IRFS (AESA Radar, Electronic Warfare (EW))
Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS) (Infrared Search and Track (IRST), Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) etc.)
Advanced Cockpit / Human Machine Interface

It is pertinent to mention here that Project AZM is an umbrella entity by Pakistan to fulfill future defence needs with self reliance & indigenous programs. Without going into details about Project AZM, since the same is already explained and discussed in a dedicated thread, we shall continue here on topic of Pakistan Turkiye JV for NGFA by collaborating in TFX program.

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## think@best

It's a big news. BTW how does Pakistan manages these projects with respect to our economy performance. it cannot be justify. JFT ongoing. JC10 coming Now 5th gen with turkey

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## Bilal.

@The Eagle Should we take this thread and locking of the original AZM NGF thread as endorsement by PDF that the in-house NGF is dead and the way forward will be collaborating on TFX?


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## KaiserX

This is great news and benefits both nations immensely a huge win-win situation for both. I was honestly hoping that the PAF would piggy back onto an existing 5th generation fighter and go the joint venture route similar to what we have done with the JF-17.

*Here is what both sides bring to the table-

Turkey
1. Mature/advanced electronics industry
2. Mature design system--> wind tunnel testing infrastructure
3. Experience from the F35 program. Turkey was producing the fuesalage for all the jets
4. Advanced missile industry- The SIPER long range missile will be the primary weapon for the TFX

Pakistan
1. Mature/Advanced aerospace industry with 20+ years of production record ie JF17 program
2. Access to the latest Chinese electronics/avionics/missile platforms
3. Involving Pakistan in the program gives Turkey access to the latest Chinese engines
4. An experienced air force program that will provide guidance on threat environment
5. Access to Chinese manufacterers


They key here will be the engine/propulsion system. The european/Americans/west would def not be trusted with such an important program. I am very very certain that the engines with be Chinese atleast inititally. It would be prefereable that the jet be designed around Chinese engines, thus this is where KAMRA might redesign TFX according to the PAFs requirements- This is KEY.*

Both wides will gain immensely while saving cost, funds, and energy. Lastly the key here may be China. It is well known that pakistan-china-Turkey are working on an unmanned fighter to support future fighter platforms.









Pakistan, Turkey, China working on a joint drone program?


Reports claim that Pakistan is coordinating on a joint drone program with Turkey and China. The countries are working on a joint unmanned drone program.




www.globalvillagespace.com





More than likely China may provide the FC-31 design which appears to be significantly similar to the TFX prototype. This also increases the likelyhood that Turkey may purchase a small batch of JF17B3 fighters to get access to the latest AESA radar and understand the PAFs design system. The front of the TFX looks similar to the JF17 if you ask me so I would not be surprised if such design cooperation was already ongoing for a few years.

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## The Eagle

Bilal. said:


> @The Eagle Should we take this thread and locking of the original AZM NGF thread as endorsement by PDF that the in-house NGF is dead and the way forward will be collaborating on TFX?



Nothing is dead neither it has to be taken in other words. NGF falls under AZM which is an umbrella to all new developments in regard to need of Pakistan Defence. I don't know why people keeps missing the point. I have already explained in the OP.

AZM is all about NGF, UAVs etc so that one thread cannot cater information or the information gets lost in pages. If you mean 100% indigenous for in-house then you should go back to the first page of AZM then read into what ACM Sohail Aman said back in 2017 and then try to understand what's new about Pakistan Turkiye collaboration.

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## dBSPL

IMO, Kotil is a passionate and enthusiastic engineer. He is also one of the most humble corporate manager I have ever seen in my life. This man, spending time with young people and students day and night; also explain TAI's vision and work to people in all panels and programs he attends, at a level that "everyone can understand". He is like a commander who built his own army of engineers. TAI has doubled in 10 years and will double in the next decade.

On the other hand: Even in a project which tender has been completed, field tests have been completed, and which signatures have been signed, if the said cooperation includes a Pakistan-Turkey strategic rapprochement; This can easily bothers many. 

I cannot criticize him for his style. But I wish that the parties to be more discreet on an issue that has not yet been fully formalized.

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## The Eagle

I would like to request our members that they copy and paste their relevant posts here on the this topic alone, from undermentioned thread.








Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD , what can be Pakistan's role in this project? one of the reason is discussed by Indians here: https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2021/03/03/why-turkey-wants-tie-up-with-pakistan-to-built-1st-fighter-jet-for-muslims.html



defence.pk

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## KaiserX

The Eagle said:


> Nothing is dead neither it has to be taken in other words. NGF falls under AZM which is an umbrella to all new developments in regard to need of Pakistan Defence. I don't know why people keeps missing the point. I have already explained in the OP.
> 
> AZM is all about NGF, UAVs etc so that one thread cannot cater information or the information gets lost in pages. If you mean 100% indigenous for in-house then you should go back to the first page of AZM then read into what ACM Sohail Aman said back in 2017 and then try to understand what's new about Pakistan Turkiye collaboration.



Yes that is correct AZM consists of the following-
1. NGF
2. Next generation MALE UAV
3. Development of aviation infrastructure- wind tunnels, computer designs, avionics manufactering
4. Development of a long range NG BVR missile

Cooperation with turkey pretty much hits all 4 points

1. TFX
2. ANKA
3. TOT from Turkey & China ongoing
4. SIPER



dBSPL said:


> IMO, Kotil is a passionate and enthusiastic engineer. He is also one of the most humble corporate manager I have ever seen in my life. This man, spending time with young people and students day and night; also explain TAI's vision and work to people in all panels and programs he attends, at a level that "everyone can understand". He is like a commander who built his own army of engineers. TAI has doubled in 10 years and will double in the next decade.
> 
> On the other hand: Even in a project which tender has been completed, field tests have been completed, and which signatures have been signed, if the said cooperation includes a Pakistan-Turkey strategic rapprochement; This can easily bothers many.
> 
> I cannot criticize him for his style. But I wish that the parties to be more discreet on an issue that has not yet been fully formalized.



The news of such cooperation has been floating around since atleast 2018. Im 1000% sure such cooperation was already ongoing and may have been formalized in private years ago before being bought public today.

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## Tair-Lahoti

*News from dec 2021:*
Pakistan’s Fifth-Gen Aircraft: Turkey Eyes Pact With Azerbaijan & Pakistan To Develop Next-Gen Stealth Fighters

_“Our doors are open for cooperation in this direction. In particular, we are talking about cooperation with countries such as Azerbaijan and Pakistan, and we propose to unite efforts in this direction”, the head of the Turkish Defence Industry Committee Ismail Demir said in an interview with CNN Turk.









Pakistan’s Fifth-Gen Aircraft: Turkey Eyes Pact With Azerbaijan & Pakistan To Develop Next-Gen Stealth Fighters


We are talking with Azerbaijan & Pakistan. Turkey Eyes Pact With Azerbaijan & Pakistan To Develop Next-Gen Stealth Fighters




eurasiantimes.com




_

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## The Eagle

dBSPL said:


> This can easily bothers many



Or may be many are not aware of Pakistan-Turkey strategic rapprochement since long. It may be about done it earlier and told later.

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## Bilal.

The Eagle said:


> Nothing is dead neither it has to be taken in other words. NGF falls under AZM which is an umbrella to all new developments in regard to need of Pakistan Defence. I don't know why people keeps missing the point. I have already explained in the OP.
> 
> AZM is all about NGF, UAVs etc so that one thread cannot cater information or the information gets lost in pages. If you mean 100% indigenous for in-house then you should go back to the first page of AZM then read into what ACM Sohail Aman said back in 2017 and then try to understand what's new about Pakistan Turkiye collaboration.


No I meant something else. Let me clarify. 

- AZM is indeed an umbrella program I am specifically talking about the NGF

-Within NGF there is an in-house design (or designs) 

-It is also understood that there was supposed to be collaboration even on making the in-house design develop into a system

-TFX collaboration is more of a fallback plan if the in-house design is found to be a not workable path

So locking the original “NGF” thread and continuing the discussion on the subject in the paradigm of TFX collaboration means that’s the way forward now and that the in-house design (with collaboration) is an abandoned route in PDF’s view?


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## Fighting Falcon 01

PAF joining TFX program was an eventuality. Pakistan on it's own does not have the resources to design, develop and manufacture 5th generation aircraft even if some foreign country aids us it will take years and years however if we collaborate with turkey and focus on just a few aspects of aircraft production e.g composite materials and airframe production we will in the long term learn how to produce high end high quality airframes and composites .... similarly we can focus on producing and contributing in R&D of electronics/ AESA radar .... Turkey adopted a similar approach and developed it's aviation industry in a short amount of time... TFX also gives access of high end Western avionics and technology to PAF.

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## farooqbhai007

KaiserX said:


> Yes that is correct AZM consists of the following-
> 1. NGF
> 2. Next generation MALE UAV
> 3. Development of aviation infrastructure- wind tunnels, computer designs, avionics manufactering
> 4. Development of a long range NG BVR missile
> 
> Cooperation with turkey pretty much hits all 4 points
> 
> 1. TFX
> 2. ANKA
> 3. TOT from Turkey & China ongoing
> 4. SIPER
> 
> 
> 
> The news of such cooperation has been floating around since atleast 2018. Im 1000% sure such cooperation was already ongoing and may have been formalized in private years ago before being bought public today.


infrastructure to ban gaya hai

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## Amaa'n

Bilal. said:


> @The Eagle Should we take this thread and locking of the original AZM NGF thread as endorsement by PDF that the in-house NGF is dead and the way forward will be collaborating on TFX?


The key word is "Collaboration" and if you listen to the above program carefully you will understand what level of collaboration is on-going......

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## Bilal.

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> The key word is "Collaboration" and if you listen to the above program carefully you will understand what level of collaboration is on-going......


It was always going to be a collaboration to turn it into an actual flying fighter aircraft system. That collaboration would have been for subsystems and technical assistance to achieve what was being designed as below. I am talking about this:









MODP Year Book 2017-18


DIRECTORATE GENERAL MUNITIONS PRODUCTION (DGMP) PROCUREMENT OF MAJOR DEFENCE EQUIPMENT



defence.pk

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## mingle

Only Hurdle for PAF are engines

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## The Eagle

Bilal. said:


> No I meant something else. Let me clarify.
> 
> - AZM is indeed an umbrella program I am specifically talking about the NGF
> 
> -Within NGF there is an in-house design (or designs)
> 
> -It is also understood that there was supposed to be collaboration even on making the in-house design develop into a system
> 
> -TFX collaboration is more of a fallback plan if the in-house design is found to be a not workable path
> 
> So locking the original “NGF” thread and continuing the discussion on the subject in the paradigm of TFX collaboration means that’s the way forward now and that the in-house design (with collaboration) is an abandoned route in PDF’s view?



An in-house design may still require the help and what if it was about TFX program in collaboration. Secondly, it doesn't mean that the design is abandoned. May be TFX is exactly what PAF needs or requires. One can relate this to PAC JV with China on Thunder. A fighter aircraft that serves the purpose is not fallback except the notion and emotions such as I couldn't built one alone. There are always JVs and this is the way forward. Lastly, who says anything that PAF will stop at TFX only. AZM thread is locked so that we will be posting threads subject wise under AZM. Wait for a while and soon you will understand.

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## Raja Porus

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD , what can be Pakistan's role in this programme?

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## Bilal.

The Eagle said:


> An in-house design may still require the help and what if it was about TFX program in collaboration. Secondly, it doesn't mean that the design is abandoned. May be TFX is exactly what PAF needs or requires. One can relate this to PAC JV with China on Thunder. A fighter aircraft that serves the purpose is not fallback except the notion and emotions such as I couldn't built one alone. There are always JVs and this is the way forward. Lastly, who says anything that PAF will stop at TFX only. AZM thread is locked so that we will be posting threads subject wise under AZM. Wait for a while and soon you will understand.


It’s just that the fate of the below is unclear now. And it could not have been TFX as the timelines don’t match. Clearly a design other than TFX was initiated somewhere in early 2017:













MODP Year Book 2017-18


DIRECTORATE GENERAL MUNITIONS PRODUCTION (DGMP) PROCUREMENT OF MAJOR DEFENCE EQUIPMENT



defence.pk

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## Amaa'n

Bilal. said:


> It was always going to be a collaboration to turn it into an actual flying fighter aircraft system. That collaboration would have been for subsystems and technical assistance to achieve what was being designed as below. I am talking about this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MODP Year Book 2017-18
> 
> 
> DIRECTORATE GENERAL MUNITIONS PRODUCTION (DGMP) PROCUREMENT OF MAJOR DEFENCE EQUIPMENT
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 817600


i typed up all lot and then deleted it again due to OPSEC reasons ....

Pakistan - Turkey - China have various MoUs / agreements in all tri services .... experienced engineers were recruited through DSSC at the rank to that of eqv to Major / Lt.Col in army who are now focused on R&D.....

from Frigates to Cyber Security , Azm to Drones we are working across the board with everyone.....Setting up labs, tests, research, project development .... to name a few

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## ghazi52



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## SD 10

where is the engine going to come form? and what about armaments? can turks make BVR as capable as meteor or PL15?


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## Bilal.

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> i typed up all lot and then deleted it again due to OPSEC reasons ....
> 
> Pakistan - Turkey - China have various MoUs / agreements in all tri services .... experienced engineers were recruited through DSSC at the rank to that of eqv to Major / Lt.Col in army who are now focused on R&D.....
> 
> from Frigates to Cyber Security , Azm to Drones we are working across the board with everyone.....Setting up labs, tests, research, project development .... to name a few


Let’s wait and see what comes out of it. I would have loved for F23 to have finally come to fruition but again fate seems to be favoring F22

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## CriticalThinker02

So when will the PAF be flying the TFX, somewhere around 2025?

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## The Eagle

Bilal. said:


> It’s just that the fate of the below is unclear now. And it could not have been TFX as the timelines don’t match. Clearly a design other than TFX was initiated somewhere in early 2017:
> View attachment 817607
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MODP Year Book 2017-18
> 
> 
> DIRECTORATE GENERAL MUNITIONS PRODUCTION (DGMP) PROCUREMENT OF MAJOR DEFENCE EQUIPMENT
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



Man...... who knows? A lot is being done behind closed doors. One can only imagine as what's being declared publicly. As far as I can understand, you were actually expecting a Pakistani design alone and alone being built. However, the keyword is always collaboration. You can call it TFX or NGF for PAF and TFX for TuAF both at a time. The highlighted part says the first cycle of conceptual design phase. Not even the design itself but first phase of a conceptual design followed by 3 more conceptual design to reach at final conceptual design and then so on and on. Not everything can be said or told by officials and I understand that. Exchange programs are actively being done and so the concern students or professionals are sent into other offices/entities to take part into R&D programs. Then after, they will have to look into future projects & so the collaboration. You don't just reinvent the wheel by your own at home.



Waqas said:


> So when will the PAF be flying the TFX, somewhere around 2025?



Surprised by the date you mentioned. Is it coming from a source you might have seen? Please share in details.

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## KaiserX

The key value for the PAF will be to pivot the 5th generation design/tech towards a fully unmanned 5/6th generation platform that would support the TFX in its roles. Id much rather have the PAF go the co-development join venture route so that more funds are available for such a concept.

If we create such a UCAV fighter alongside the TFX that would give us a huge competitive edge over the IAF for decades to come.

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## NA71

Great Mashallah....This is what was hinted in other thread......keep in mind ...2022 will be full of news......IA.

AZM AUR HOSLA ....is the key

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## iLION12345_1

Waqas said:


> So when will the PAF be flying the TFX, somewhere around 2025?


Not before 2035, if at all.

TFX is a rather ambitious project coming from a country that might be seeing an economic and geo-political crisis if it continues its current foreign policies. Turkey cannot make the TFX without American and European support, and currently it’s losing said support.

I don’t mean any offense to the Turkish people or their defense Industry, they’ve made massive progress recently and it’s pretty impressive to see, but the TFX is clearly above their capability as it stands. At least for this decade.

as much as I’d like Pakistan to work with them, I have to be realistic, I currently don’t have high hopes for the TFX. I hope to be proven wrong however.

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## Bilal.

The Eagle said:


> Man...... who knows? A lot is being done behind closed doors. One can only imagine as what's being declared publicly. As far as I can understand, you were actually expecting a Pakistani design alone and alone being built. However, the keyword is always collaboration. You can call it TFX or NGF for PAF and TFX for TuAF both at a time. The highlighted part says the first cycle of conceptual design phase. Not even the design itself but first phase of a conceptual design followed by 3 more conceptual design to reach at final conceptual design and then so on and on. Not everything can be said or told by officials and I understand that. Exchange programs are actively being done and so the concern students or professionals are sent into other offices/entities to take part into R&D programs. Then after, they will have to look into future projects & so the collaboration. You don't just reinvent the wheel by your own at home.
> 
> 
> 
> Surprised by the date you mentioned. Is it coming from a source you might have seen? Please share in details.


I would like to emphasize again. I didn’t expect or mean in my post “a Pakistani design alone and alone being built.”

What I was hoping for was a Pakistani design with collaboration and technical assistance from Turkey (and maybe China) on subsystems and fixing any issues that would have risen during the process.

Kind of a Pakistan led and friendly country assisted program. But if we have taken the TFX route it’s a different path. Let’s see….

Also the document doesn’t only call it conceptual design but also “*first configuration*” that was *designed* based on the challenging performance requirements of PAF.

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## JamD

We've been talking about this for years but now everyone's suddenly losing their minds, I don't know why.









Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.


this is surprise to 99.9% of ppl.. re-open the thread You can open a new one but wait until Foxtrox go to sleep or working....



defence.pk








Desert Fox 1 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD , what can be Pakistan's role in this programme?


Pakistan can invest money, promise to buy a more strike-oriented version of the TFX. Pakistan can have workshare agreements. Don't expect Pakistan to actively contribute to major design.

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## The Eagle

Bilal. said:


> I would like to emphasize again. I didn’t expect or mean in my post “a Pakistani design alone and alone being built.”
> 
> What I was hoping for was a Pakistani design with collaboration and technical assistance from Turkey (and maybe China) on subsystems and fixing any issues that would have risen during the process.
> 
> Kind of a Pakistan led and friendly country assisted program. But if we have taken the TFX route it’s a different path. Let’s see….



_ACM Sohail Aman said back in 2019_, (Available in the OP)

_"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.
We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft."*_

To lead such a huge project, one has to look as where from we are starting. What I am trying to say that it was never the promise of leading such a project. Collaboration & collaboration was said every time in view of facts & ground realities. For example, we bought Milgem for Navy and at the same time, Turkiye is helping in regards to ToT and so we are now working on Jinnah Class design in Pakistan.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> We've been talking about this for years but now everyone's suddenly losing their minds, I don't know why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.
> 
> 
> this is surprise to 99.9% of ppl.. re-open the thread You can open a new one but wait until Foxtrox go to sleep or working....
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan can invest money, promise to buy a more strike-oriented version of the TFX. Pakistan can have workshare agreements. Don't expect Pakistan to actively contribute to major design.


This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).

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## Falcon26

Desert Fox 1 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD , what can be Pakistan's role in this programme?



Most obvious contribution by Pakistan will be bring economies of scale. Pakistan, if this news is true, might eventually order 100+ jets, which brings many dividends for TAI & Turkey.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).


The most likely story.

Copying post from other thread as requested. This is as straight from the horse's mouth that it can be. With that being said, I'm just a dude on the web.


JamD said:


> *Just to make it crystal clear for everyone here: currently Pakistan is ANALYZING TFX in order to decide if Pakistan wants to buy in or not. This is my most recent information. *This should tell you about our level of involvement in TFX. I know Kotil's statement has caused/will cause a firestorm on twitter and this forum - probably his intent too - but he is only being a good salesman and generating buzz. Dr. Riaz is having to play along lol.
> 
> EDIT: At the risk of adding to the firestorm, things may have changed from analysis to the decision to join (my info above being out of date), which would mean Kotil's statement is more factual than I think.


Decision to join meaning what is in the above post by @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> The most likely story.
> 
> Copying post from other thread as requested. This is as straight from the horse's mouth that it can be. With that being said, I'm just a dude on the web.
> 
> Decision to join meaning what is in the above post by @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


So the design that was initiated in 2017 as per the MODP will not be pursued, at least for now.


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## dBSPL

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).


A little anecdote on this topic: The aircraft has undergone a design change to carry the SOM-J and some other heavy air-to-ground weapon systems at its internal weapon stations. From this point of view, we can say that the design of the aircraft has evolved towards a multi-role structure rather than just an air superiority system. In fact, Temel Kotil insists that their aim is to produce an aircraft between the F35 and the F-22, as the scope of flexibility. My guess is: up to block-3, air to ground requirements will be met to a large extent, and with block-4, full operational capacity will be achieved in terms of air-to-air missions.

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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).



In the meantime, in-house design can be continued till we develop in areas like economy at first and then come up with our own NGF.

“A lightweight single engine 5th Gen fighter, possibly using same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to JF-17 on export markets with the PAF expected to be its primary client.”

That program could be used to influence with in-house design. Just saying.

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> So the design that was initiated in 2017 as per the MODP will not be pursued.


IMHO No.

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## fo20

yes


Foxtrot Alpha said:


> The key word is "Collaboration" and if you listen to the above program carefully you will understand what level of collaboration is on-going......


Yes, I agree with your theory


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## The Eagle

@NA71 please be kind and do not spam threads with these kind of youtube click baiting videos. Have your say or at-least bring some credible source to share. 

Regards,

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## NA71

The Eagle said:


> @NA71 please be kind and do not spam threads with these kind of youtube click baiting videos. Have your say or at-least bring some credible source to share.
> 
> Regards,



ohh OK....pure excitement in this very age.


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Now as PAF has decided to join TFX and according to credible members,our involvement will be limited to economies of scale only,
So now PAC and AvRID should shift their focus towards UCAVs and Avionics.They should indeginize JF 17 as much as possible.AWC should come with home grown BVR solutions.
But i wonder what will be the use of all the aviation city like buildings we were/are constructing?

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## JamD

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Now as PAF has decided to join TFX and according to credible members,our involvement will be limited to economies of scale only,
> So now PAC and AvRID should shift their focus towards UCAVs and Avionics.They should indeginize JF 17 as much as possible.AWC should come with home grown BVR solutions.
> *But i wonder what will be the use of all the aviation city like buildings we were/are constructing?*


It sort of feels like Project Azm has been made too big to fail with all of the money poured into, at least, the infrastructure. Sure the local FGFA design may not be pursued but I believe everything else will be pursued and there is a strong desire to develop an honest-to-God aerospace industry instead of a singular factory that makes a jet and a trainer. The too big to fail means that it will survive no matter how much we logically think it should end. This would be excellent because this is exactly the kind of commitment that you need for giving birth to an industry. @kursed @PanzerKiel 

However, I've been wrong before and this could end up being a giant waste of money to make buildings. I certainly hope not.

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## Salza

@Zarvan so this is the western aircraft which was being talked about in j10c thread. Suspense turning into a Lil disappointment because of the expected timelines.

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## dBSPL

SD 10 said:


> where is the engine going to come form? and what about armaments? can turks make BVR as capable as meteor or PL15?


As far as I know, three different BVR air-to-air missile projects are ongoing under the responsibility of Tübitak Sage. The first of these, Gökdoğan, started in 2013, and its evulation tests continue at 401st test fleet command. The request in the first phase was +65km engagement range. With Phase-2, this range will reach 100km. First block missile is expected to be included in the active inventory in 2022.

Some of Gökdoğan's ability set:
• Solid-state active radar seeker technology
• Smart guidance with fire and forget
• Enhanced countermeasure under intensive EW environment and guidance to the jamming source
• Ability to update target information with data-link
• Ability to shoot from any angle and lock onto multiple targets
• Lockable after fire

The other project is Gökhan, ramjet BVR AAM. Tübitak Sage GM has actually lifted the secrecy on this project by announcing it last year. Fire tests will begin in 2023.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

think@best said:


> It's a big news. BTW how does Pakistan manages these projects with respect to our economy performance. it cannot be justify. JFT ongoing. JC10 coming Now 5th gen with turkey


Morning shows the day....

If you want to get a job done find a busy person....

If Pak can manage the nuclear bombs despite the open threat of making an example out of her by Kissinger - the personification of Iblis the Habis - she can manage to support the TFX program too....



The Eagle said:


> Or may be many are not aware of Pakistan-Turkey strategic rapprochement since long. It may be about done it earlier and told later.


My beard doesn't know what's inside my head - Fatih Sultan Mehmet Han

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## Corax

Seems like the PAF identified enough of an overlap in design and performance parameters between the FGFA and the TFX in order to justify pooling resources and collaborating on a 'PAF specific' version. Why spend time, money, and resources on a new design when most of the R&D has already been done? The 'collaboration' from hereon could be to implement PAF specific requirements, especially in terms of potential future weapons, avionics, radar, etc. The elephant in the room is the powerplant, and we'll need to see what comes from the collaboration between TAI and RR in that regards, as well as potential restrictions and risks associated with western avionics (radar?) and weapons.

It's interesting to note that at one point the British and TAI were talking about joint development and production of the TFX, and adopting it in the RAF, but that idea has since been superseded by the Tempest programme. Consequently, I wouldn't rule out some overlap between the Tempest and TFX either.

They key points in my view will be radar/avionics, weapons, and powerplant. The radar could be an in-house development at PAC under the Azm umbrella, given the recent news in that regard, in addition to A2A and other weapons.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> Only Hurdle for PAF are engines


PAF can use the Chinese made engines since it has given clearance for them for its prime fighter J-10s....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> It sort of feels like Project Azm has been made too big to fail with all of the money poured into, at least, the infrastructure. Sure the local FGFA design may not be pursued but I believe everything else will be pursued and there is a strong desire to develop an honest-to-God aerospace industry instead of a singular factory that makes a jet and a trainer. The too big to fail means that it will survive no matter how much we logically think it should end. This would be excellent because this is exactly the kind of commitment that you need for giving birth to an industry. @kursed @PanzerKiel
> 
> However, I've been wrong before and this could end up being a giant waste of money to make buildings. I certainly hope not.


I'm not worried about any of the infrastructure. If the PAF rolls AZM into TFX, then either AvRID/PAC would use those facilities to support TFX, or TAI will buy those sites as part of an offset agreement (to carry out Pakistan's side of the work). None of that capacity is blocker, IMHO. If there's anything useful, it'll roll into TFX or some other key program.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm not worried about any of the infrastructure. If the PAF rolls AZM into TFX, then either AvRID/PAC would use those facilities to support TFX, or TAI will buy those sites as part of an offset agreement (to carry out Pakistan's side of the work). None of that capacity is blocker, IMHO. If there's anything useful, it'll roll into TFX or some other key program.


PAC means the Chinese connections which are the products of Pak's 7 decades of selfless hard work.....

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## Riz



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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Riz said:


> View attachment 817638


May I suggest: TEK MILLET IKI DEVLET - ONE NATION TWO STATES....

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## Ghessan

Big question is engine, would Turkey able to develop one and that also in given timeframe, otherwise on what grounds did Pakistan decide to go that route?
That would be interesting to know.


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## Corax

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm not worried about any of the infrastructure. If the PAF rolls AZM into TFX, then either AvRID/PAC would use those facilities to support TFX, or TAI will buy those sites as part of an offset agreement (to carry out Pakistan's side of the work). None of that capacity is blocker, IMHO. If there's anything useful, it'll roll into TFX or some other key program.




Not to mention that production infrastructure will also be needed. I think any PAF version of the TFX will be manufactured in Pakistan, especially if we're looking at significant numbers.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Falcon26 said:


> Most obvious contribution by Pakistan will be bring economies of scale. Pakistan, if this news is true, might eventually order 100+ jets, which brings many dividends for TAI & Turkey.


As per the TAI boss, he has now 5K engineers working in various projects. He wants to raise it to 10K strength ASAP to keep the promises. Pak has a huge pool of fresh eng grads who know English well....

All fresh grads go through a rigorous training program which culminates in "class" projects to develop a UAV at the least....

LM has 50K engineers in its payroll....

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## NA71

Ghessan said:


> Big question is engine, would Turkey able to develop one and that also in given timeframe, otherwise on what grounds did Pakistan decide to go that route?
> That would be interesting to know.



For engine ....only one trusted source - China ...with Pakistan as project partner ...chances of western engine is now further reduced.

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## dBSPL

Riz said:


> View attachment 817638


DEMİR KARDEŞLER = IRON BROTHERS

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

JamD said:


> It sort of feels like Project Azm has been made too big to fail with all of the money poured into, at least, the infrastructure. Sure the local FGFA design may not be pursued but I believe everything else will be pursued and there is a strong desire to develop an honest-to-God aerospace industry instead of a singular factory that makes a jet and a trainer. The too big to fail means that it will survive no matter how much we logically think it should end. This would be excellent because this is exactly the kind of commitment that you need for giving birth to an industry. @kursed @PanzerKiel
> 
> However, I've been wrong before and this could end up being a giant waste of money to make buildings. I certainly hope not.


The surest way to fail is not to try at the first place! As for Turkey, failure isn't an option...

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## dBSPL

The F110-GE-129 will be used during the development phase. There are some important reasons for choosing this engine:

1. It is one of the engines with the highest dry weight and engine diameter in its class. It can be expected that the interface of the domestic engine will have similar, but this volume will provide great convenience in different engine integration.

2. TEI had produced this engine under license in Turkiye for many many years with a very high domestic contribution margin, and the technical infrastructure of the Air Force has been familiar with all the details and maintenance procedures of this engine for decades.

3. This engine is like a tank. It is known for a very successful design and very few technical problems, with much longer periodic maintenance intervals than its counterparts.

4. It is one of the models with the most widespread network in the world in terms of engine spare parts and equipment, and there is a very serious stock in this sense in Turkiye.

///

Regarding the domestic engine program, the Phase-2 tender has been announced. The developments on the subject are included in the related thread.

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## Ghessan

NA71 said:


> For engine ....only one trusted source - China ...with Pakistan as project partner ...chances of western engine is now further reduced.


Would that work? Turkey and China collaborate for PAF of their engine requirement? Also how Turkey is going to induct those within their own air force since they are not looking into a western engine for TFX.
If it is announced now, it would be extremely detailed, long and back to back several discussions between the two including engine and other aspects.
We may have to wait for details.

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## Princeps Senatus

Salza said:


> @Zarvan so this is the western aircraft which was being talked about in j10c thread. Suspense turning into a Lil disappointment because of the expected timelines.


eurofighter


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## Dalit

Turkey has accumulated a lot of knowledge during their F-35 collaboration. I don't doubt Turkish ability to produce a homegrown 5th gen aircraft for a minute. As many have already pointed out, engine is the biggest challenge. I think China or Russia will provide an engine for this fighter.

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## dBSPL

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> PAF can use the Chinese made engines since it has given clearance for them for its prime fighter J-10s....


Ignoring the differences regarding the interfaces of the engines: Which engine for example? It would be a huuuge surprise if China proposes a new generation engine for this project. Instead, they can offer their own jets to Pakistan.

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## dBSPL

Dalit said:


> Turkey has accumulated a lot of knowledge during their F-35 collaboration. I don't doubt Turkish ability to produce a homegrown 5th gen aircraft for a minute. As many have already pointed out, engine is the biggest challenge. I think China or Russia will provide an engine for this fighter.


Mass producing is not a problem. Turkiye is one of the three centers that produce fuselage for the JSF project. This infrastructure already exists on a certain scale in Turkiye and since 2011, many other huge investments have been made many areas such additive manufacturing and composites. The problem starts when you want to start your own design-testing activities, according to your own needs. When you aim for this purpose, it is necessary to produce and integrate many other home-built sub-elements in parallel with the strategic value of the system you want to produce. If you follow the developments closely with MMU, you will see that the main investments are related to the design and testing processes.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Dalit said:


> Turkey has accumulated a lot of knowledge during their F-35 collaboration. I don't doubt Turkish ability to produce a homegrown 5th gen aircraft for a minute. As many have already pointed out, engine is the biggest challenge. I think China or Russia will provide an engine for this fighter.


An initial batch of GE engines, used in F16s with the final manufacturing facilities in Turkey under license, have been procured for the initial blocks till the indigenous engines are available.....

I am pretty sure PAF won't try their luck with the US engines any more. So, they might go for other solutions.....

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## kursed

JamD said:


> It sort of feels like Project Azm has been made too big to fail with all of the money poured into, at least, the infrastructure. Sure the local FGFA design may not be pursued but I believe everything else will be pursued and there is a strong desire to develop an honest-to-God aerospace industry instead of a singular factory that makes a jet and a trainer. The too big to fail means that it will survive no matter how much we logically think it should end. This would be excellent because this is exactly the kind of commitment that you need for giving birth to an industry. @kursed @PanzerKiel
> 
> However, I've been wrong before and this could end up being a giant waste of money to make buildings. I certainly hope not.


You know my views on this already. #foreverskeptic

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## NA71

Ghessan said:


> Would that work? Turkey and China collaborate for PAF of their engine requirement? Also how Turkey is going to induct those within their own air force since they are not looking into a western engine for TFX.
> If it is announced now, it would be extremely detailed, long and back to back several discussions between the two including engine and other aspects.
> We may have to wait for details.


yes ....Turkey and Pakistan will collaborate with China for mutual benefits ...Turkey would learn from Pakistan's Assets (J-10C) ...how about initial proto types of Chinese engines and later may switch to others...like in J-10 development cycle.

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## JamD

kursed said:


> You know my views on this already. #foreverskeptic


It is because of your views that I tagged you lol. Look at it this way. Throw enough crap at a wall and eventually some will start to stick  If they keep this up for long enough I honestly believe they'll build momentum to do something useful - not necessarily all that we dream of - but economically viable things that benefit our bank account and defence.

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## kursed

JamD said:


> It is because of your views that I tagged you lol. Look at it this way. Throw enough crap at a wall and eventually some will start to stick  If they keep this up for long enough I honestly believe they'll build momentum to do something useful - not necessarily all that we dream of - but economically viable things that benefit our bank account and defence.


If I see PAF starting centers of excellence within unis, or funding talent and research in-house. This would look plausible. You already know how current effort is going, don’t need to even go details of that. 

I see more chances of a home grown next gen air borne weapons program coming out of this, than a jet. Unless ofc, TAI does all the heavy lifting on this.

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## Amaa'n



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## JamD

kursed said:


> If I see PAF starting centers of excellence within unis, or funding talent and research in-house. This would look plausible. You already know how current effort is going, don’t need to even go details of that.
> *
> I see more chances of a home grown next gen air borne weapons program coming out of this, than a jet.* Unless ofc, TAI does all the heavy lifting on this.


Oh yes, in total agreement on that. I don't think I ever believed that the YF-23 was going to be a real thing. I hope that a lot of things come out of this. The aim should be small subsystems instead of grand projects. But that's just my opinion.



kursed said:


> If I see PAF starting centers of excellence within unis, or funding talent and research in-house. This would look plausible. You already know how current effort is going, don’t need to even go details of that.
> 
> I see more chances of a home grown next gen air borne weapons program coming out of this, than a jet. Unless ofc, TAI does all the heavy lifting on this.


So when one of the ACMs (I forget which one, I think Sohail Aman) said SIXTH generation with lasers, he may actually have been being more realistic....that it'd take us a generation to even attempt a fighter jet for real...after 30 years of working hard.. being a hopeless optimist for a change

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Is it certain that TFX and AZM will use the same platform? At the 22nd minute of the video, he says we will support their project with our experience in the Azm project, that's why I asked.

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## Bilal.

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Is it certain that TFX and AZM will use the same platform? At the 22nd minute of the video, he says we will support their project with our experience in the Azm project, that's why I asked.


I raised the same question in the previous thread before it was locked. But the members who are more aware have basically confirmed that the AZM platform has been canned in favor of TFX.

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## NA71

this could be also a possibility that in 2017 we decided to join TFX and were engaged in preliminary infrastructure development proposed by Turks....the deliberate photo leaks (Jet designs) were just distractions


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## farooqbhai007

JamD said:


> It sort of feels like Project Azm has been made too big to fail with all of the money poured into, at least, the infrastructure. Sure the local FGFA design may not be pursued but I believe everything else will be pursued and there is a strong desire to develop an honest-to-God aerospace industry instead of a singular factory that makes a jet and a trainer. The too big to fail means that it will survive no matter how much we logically think it should end. This would be excellent because this is exactly the kind of commitment that you need for giving birth to an industry. @kursed @PanzerKiel
> 
> However, I've been wrong before and this could end up being a giant waste of money to make buildings. I certainly hope not.


Buildings location tells us something else , I would say , even if PAC doesn't use them others would.


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## Basel

mingle said:


> Only Hurdle for PAF are engines


For TFX EJ-200 upgraded version with TVC EJ230 was offered by RR and it will be better option if Pakistan is joining the program.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

farooqbhai007 said:


> others would.


AWC 😎


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## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).



PAF NGF development speed depends on IAF NGF program, of they fast track it then PAF will may also do the same.


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal. said:


> I raised the same question in the previous thread before it was locked. But the members who are more aware have basically confirmed that the AZM platform has been canned in favor of TFX.


I'm still not sure, it's because Kotil broadcast live at TAI facilities via national channel 1 week ago and he didn't mention Pakistan while he was talking about TFX, only he said some Pakistani students and TAI engineering office that he opened in PAC supported it. had previously stated. Kotil may have said Turkish - Pakistani fighter to look cute because they support each other.

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## Bilal.

So if NUST is going to be the design centre for work outsourced to Pakistan then what would Air University and the rest of aviation city supposed to do. Will they be canned too…

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## Trango Towers

Basel said:


> PAF NGF development speed depends on IAF NGF program, of they fast track it then PAF will may also do the same.


I think we need to forget India. With jf17 under the belt and now a solid 5th gen program. Indians are way behind.


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## Bilal.

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I'm still not sure, it's because Kotil broadcast live at TAI facilities via national channel 1 week ago and he didn't mention Pakistan while he was talking about TFX, only he said some Pakistani students and TAI engineering office that he opened in PAC supported it. had previously stated. Kotil may have said Turkish - Pakistani fighter to look cute because they support each other.


The thing is. You are probably right that he made it sound cute because as advance stage as TFX already is in. PAC or NUST work seems more of an offset type arrangement rather than a full blown joint development.

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## JamD

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I'm still not sure, it's because Kotil broadcast live at TAI facilities via national channel 1 week ago and he didn't mention Pakistan while he was talking about TFX, only he said some Pakistani students and TAI engineering office that he opened in PAC supported it. had previously stated. *Kotil may have said Turkish - Pakistani fighter to look cute because they support each other.*


I think that's basically what has happened. Yes there is a small Pakistani technical team in Ankara. According to this interview it certainly sounds like TAI wants to offload some manufacturing and maybe some low-level design work to Pakistan. But TFX is definitely not a "Turkish-Pakistani fighter". I think he was just playing to the gallery.




Bilal. said:


> So if NUST is going to be the design centre for work outsourced to Pakistan then what would Air University and the rest of aviation city supposed to do. Will they be canned too…


On one hand, planning isn't Pakistan's strength. I think Air University was being built up to support a local Azm FGFA.

On the other hand, it only takes some paperwork to start calling the buildings next to PAC, NUST PAC Campus instead of Air University Aviation City Campus. Dr.Riaz is PAF afterall. I wouldn't worry too much about names. I don't think they'll be building manufacturing infrastructure in H12. That may be reserved for Kamra. On the other OTHER hand, we had a member tell us of all the land acquistion problems with Kamra Aviation City - which is why there has been so little civil works on the ground in Kamra.

EDIT: I know that a few posts ago I said that there's a lot of infrastructure near Kamra already and here I am saying there is little. My point was that three rather large buildings have been constructed near Kamra. This shows serious commitment. This also shows that so many other buildings that should've been built (according to Air University Aviation City Campus Model) have not been built.

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## deep_blue

1.Is PAF trying to achive commonality of fleet/ weapons/ avionics with friendly nations i.e China, Turkey?
2. Is Pakistan Trying to bring together China and Turkey in technical areas?
3. Can we expect flow of Turkish tech into JF17 current or future block(if any)?


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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> I think that's basically what has happened. Yes there is a small Pakistani technical team in Ankara. According to this interview it certainly sounds like TAI wants to offload some manufacturing and maybe some low-level design work to Pakistan. But TFX is definitely not a "Turkish-Pakistani fighter". I think he was just playing to the gallery.
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, planning isn't Pakistan's strength. I think Air University was being built up to support a local Azm FGFA.
> 
> On the other hand, it only takes some paperwork to start calling the buildings next to PAC, NUST PAC Campus instead of Air University Aviation City Campus. Dr.Riaz is PAF afterall. I wouldn't worry too much about names. I don't think they'll be building manufacturing infrastructure in H12. That may be reserved for Kamra. On the other OTHER hand, we had a member tell us of all the land acquistion problems with Kamra Aviation City - which is why there has been so little civil works on the ground in Kamra.


You know what just ticked me off. Did a bit of search just now on Aviation City and found adverts for Fazaiya Housing at the same location. Resources well utilized? I mean are you kidding me!



Fazaia Housing Scheme Aviation City Kamra

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> You know what just ticked me off. Did a bit of search just now on Aviation City and found adverts for Fazaiya Housing at the same location. Resources well utilized? We mean are you kidding me!
> 
> 
> 
> Fazaia Housing Scheme Aviation City Kamra


Hahahaha there's nothing more inevtiable than a DHA or Fazaia Society.

They're even using pictures of the Air University Campus. Wow. I shouldn't be surprised.

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## Amaa'n

Bilal. said:


> I raised the same question in the previous thread before it was locked. But the members who are more aware have basically confirmed that the AZM platform has been canned in favor of TFX.





farooqbhai007 said:


> Buildings location tells us something else , I would say , even if PAC doesn't use them others would.





RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I'm still not sure, it's because Kotil broadcast live at TAI facilities via national channel 1 week ago and he didn't mention Pakistan while he was talking about TFX, only he said some Pakistani students and TAI engineering office that he opened in PAC supported it. had previously stated. Kotil may have said Turkish - Pakistani fighter to look cute because they support each other.





Bilal. said:


> So if NUST is going to be the design centre for work outsourced to Pakistan then what would Air University and the rest of aviation city supposed to do. Will they be canned too…


This is what i do not appreciate about Twitter and social media because unnecessary hype is created and when the balloon bursts, it is nothing but air....

Renowned universities are working on different areas. just to highlight few:


****************************************************************jects.....
Try speaking to Graduate & PhD level candidates at these unis




https://www.au.edu.pk/Pages/Faculties/IAA/Departments/Avionics/avi_R_and_D.aspx

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## Bilal.

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> This is what i do not appreciate about Twitter and social media because unnecessary hype is created and when the balloon bursts, it is nothing but air....
> 
> Renowned universities are working on different areas. just to highlight few:
> 
> 
> ********************
> Try speaking to Graduate & PhD level candidates at these unis


My point was actually in positive sense. That they will end up building capabilities unless canned which most likely will not happen.

We need to develop the ecosystem. If not now then eventually it will enable us to undertake complex projects largely in-house. What TAI is today, we will be there in due time.



JamD said:


> Hahahaha there's nothing more inevtiable than a DHA or Fazaia Society.
> 
> They're even using pictures of the Air University Campus. Wow. I shouldn't be surprised.


Being marketed as education facility for the local residents not the cutting edge institution that will undertake research and development for our key aviation programs.

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## The SC

The Pakistan Aviation Complex has signed a deal with the Turkish aviation industry in the T-FX fifth generation combat aircraft program with Pakistan becoming an official partner.

The T-FX will now be redesigned and modified by PAC and integrated with Project Azm's NGFA program to meet the common requirements of the air forces of both countries through a single platform. 

Aircraft development will be divided between Pakistan and Turkey.. TAI and PAC's expertise will be pooled together for joint development, which will lower project costs, increase feasibility, increase combat capabilities, and shorten timelines.

The final manufacturing of the TF-X/JF-XX will take place in both countries.

News of Pakistan joining TAI's fighter program was confirmed by the CEO of Turkish Aerospace to Pakistani media this week, saying that the TF-X is now a "Turkish-Pakistani fighter" program.

The CEO of TAI also said that TAI will move some of its operations to Pakistan by the end of this year.

TF-X / TPF-XX / JF-XX is a joint program for the development of a multi-mission fifth-generation combat aircraft between Turkey and Pakistan,

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## Zarf

Just for my knowledge, I want to ask why Pakistan choose turkey for its 5th Generation Fighter and not let's say China?


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## The SC

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493624432908283911

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## eagleeye

the aim to use an indigenous engine for the serial production after 2028. tr motor is is developing the engine they are confident of their success. they bought 5 F110 GE engines only for the prototypes.




Basel said:


> For TFX EJ-200 upgraded version with TVC EJ230 was offered by RR and it will be better option if Pakistan is joining the program.

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## WinterFangs

Zarf said:


> Just for my knowledge, I want to ask why Pakistan choose turkey for its 5th Generation Fighter and not let's say China?


who said Pakistan did not choose China for its 5th gen fighter. TF-X does not exclude the possibility of getting a 5th gen from China in the future.

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## Trango Towers

WinterFangs said:


> who said Pakistan did not choose China for its 5th gen fighter. TF-X does not exclude the possibility of getting a 5th gen from China in the future.


There is no reason why both platforms may not be incorporated. But China is also working on a 6th gen

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

My worries were correct. At least they support each other in a calibrated way.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496210247962275840

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## applesauce

Trango Towers said:


> There is no reason why both platforms may not be incorporated. But China is also working on a 6th gen



im not convinced that Pakistan can support the logistics of two, possibly completely different, 5th gens that have basically the same role and size.


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## Ali_Baba

It is not a binary choice between TFX or J-35/21 - PAF most likely will operate both types with different roles. Pakistan has been keen to develop defence relatons with Turkey as shown by the T-129 attempted procurement.

PAC offers the TFX programme cheaper manufacturing of components that are time intensive to manufacture at a much lower labour costs than in Turkey while maintaining control over IP - etc.

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## Zarf

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> My worries were correct. At least they support each other in a calibrated way.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496210247962275840


What is it mean?


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## Bleek

Seems like this was more of a joke and it's been hyped up, was this actually officially confirmed?

Although I think it's still possible in the near future, even if it hasn't


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## ziaulislam

The Eagle said:


> An in-house design may still require the help and what if it was about TFX program in collaboration. Secondly, it doesn't mean that the design is abandoned. May be TFX is exactly what PAF needs or requires. One can relate this to PAC JV with China on Thunder. A fighter aircraft that serves the purpose is not fallback except the notion and emotions such as I couldn't built one alone. There are always JVs and this is the way forward. Lastly, who says anything that PAF will stop at TFX only. AZM thread is locked so that we will be posting threads subject wise under AZM. Wait for a while and soon you will understand.


JV is the way forward..
Pakistan turkey need to find more patners..
Azerbhijan, malaysia and qatar are potential candidates that can be involves in program early

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## WinterFangs

Zarf said:


> What is it mean?


Translation says, that the merge of tfx and project azm is out of the question currently, and the recent news that indicates this direction is also false. (Info obtained from that page - turkeys most popular industry and aviation military news platform)


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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Zarf said:


> What is it mean?


According to the information obtained by SavunmaSanayiST.com Combining the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) with Pakistan's AZM Project is out of the question at the moment. The news in this direction is also not true.

SSB employee Yusuf Akbaba made the same statement. Hundreds of forum members fell victim to Kotil's cuteness. Fortunately, I know my CEO. *BRUH


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496206537286725636*

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> According to the information obtained by SavunmaSanayiST.com Combining the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) with Pakistan's AZM Project is out of the question at the moment. The news in this direction is also not true.
> 
> SSB employee Yusuf Akbaba made the same statement. Hundreds of forum members fell victim to Kotil's cuteness. Fortunately, I know my CEO. *BRUH
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496206537286725636*


It's worth noting that if Pakistan was genuinely interested, it'd take a few years to just draft the accord/agreement. MMU is serious. It'd take a lot of negotiation, audits, and investigation to figure out offsets, co-production, IP sharing, etc. The amount of money involved would be as much as CPEC.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

kursed said:


> You know my views on this already. *#foreverskeptic*


I am pretty sure you give a lifeline to the folks over your eastern borders....


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## Trango Towers

Anyone seen any reaction from Indian media?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth noting that if Pakistan was genuinely interested, it'd take a few years to just draft the accord/agreement. MMU is serious. It'd take a lot of negotiation, audits, and investigation to figure out offsets, co-production, IP sharing, etc. The amount of money involved would be as much as CPEC.


No matter how badly the other folks want it, Pak is never short of cash or options for her critical defense requirements! Now, you've put India into the backfoot, especially, S-400 vs F-35....

Last Afgans are now the last hopes...

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Ali_Baba said:


> It is not a binary choice between TFX or J-35/21 - PAF most likely will operate both types with different roles. Pakistan has been keen to develop defence relatons with Turkey as shown by the T-129 attempted procurement.
> 
> PAC offers the TFX programme cheaper manufacturing of components that are time intensive to manufacture at a much lower labour costs than in Turkey while maintaining control over IP - etc.


And, some critical inputs and ideas and "imagination" that money can't buy!!! How many AFs have the brains and guts to take on a 7x larger enemy AF or an AF that Iblis is proud of, whose religious redemption lies in Pak's perdition, head on with only a couple of billions of $s in the treasury, while those resourceful enemies are supported by all means by almost entire known world from the men and the _Sheyatin_?

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth noting that if Pakistan was genuinely interested, it'd take a few years to just draft the accord/agreement. MMU is serious. It'd take a lot of negotiation, audits, and investigation to figure out offsets, co-production, IP sharing, etc. The amount of money involved would be as much as CPEC.


I think you are underestimating PAC, less than a year later, more than 10 test centers will be opened in the new complex in Ankara, including RCS finder. Likewise, more developed ones are located in China. Pakistani engineers can always benefit from them. The reason why I am pessimistic about direct partnership is the engines. No matter how hard they try not to break the pot, it is impossible for them to produce the domestic engine for the first deliveries, and even the first aircraft in the inventory will use the F110. Since the USA sees Pakistan as a part of China, this already risky chance will be reduced to zero. It should also be taken into account that the program already has too many risks for a country like Turkey.

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## mourning sage

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> This is what i do not appreciate about Twitter and social media because unnecessary hype is created and when the balloon bursts, it is nothing but air....
> 
> Renowned universities are working on different areas. just to highlight few:
> 
> 
> ****************************************************************jects.....
> Try speaking to Graduate & PhD level candidates at these unis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.au.edu.pk/Pages/Faculties/IAA/Departments/Avionics/avi_R_and_D.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 817693


I admire your optimism. Unfortunately, I had the unique pleasure of studying at SMME. It was Pakistan's toughest Mech Eng to get into, barring GIKI but for GIKi there is a huge financial tag that most students cant afford, so SMME it was for me. The state of mech eng there and the general engineering scene at NUST and its associated sister colleges was quite poor and from the stories I hear, is only worsening. Internal, petty politics, right from the Rector level to the Principle to the HoD of each department has ruined whatever was left of the school. Personally, the last nail in the coffin was the departure of Dr. Ghafoor as the Principle after his disagreement over power sharing with the then rector. SMME has seen massive decline in quality. I can say this because I work directly with SMME and its students. More to the point, the post-grads show very very little promise. 

SEECs faired much better though, it had a vibrant CS department that was flourishing but that's pretty much it. The research however undertaken there too was quite limited in nature. Every good researcher from my batch left Pakistan for the US or EU and has absolutely no interest in going back. Without a massive revolution in the way our universities are run, the aviation city won't produce a lot of results.

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## Big_bud

My concern is more about Turkish economy. How USA has started attacking its economy. Western powers don't like Erdogan at all. They don't like a strong Islamic country just at the foot steps of Europe. USA has already engineered a military coup against Erdogan. If Turkey turns liberal again, it would continue to get everything from USA. However USA does not like countries will a soul and will of their own. They don't like people of character, integrity and independent thinking. I don't think Turkey would be able to get hands on anymore western technologies. I don't think they will be able to get hands on GE F110s, US would intervene and stop their sales. Specially with Pakistan involved now, chances of anything western are gone. Everything has to be indigenous. Which makes me wonder? Weren't we better off continuing with the Chinese?

It can be the case that it is Pakistan i.e. trying to protect Turkish interests here, not as much vice versa. Alone, Turkish program would die or chances of a failed product are high. By joining the program, Pakistan would be able to get China more insight into F35 technologies from Turkey. And China in return can provide engines/ technology for TFX, maybe help develop it in a major way. I am quite apprehensive that Turkey & Pakistan alone can pull off an indigenous aircraft, forget the engines. Building an aircraft under TOT & license is one thing, developing one from scratch is another. Developing its engines is altogether another. To me it sounds more like a step towards Pak-Turk + China - Russia alliance to build and mature 5th gen technologies. With Russia sanctioned by USA, China can predict that it can be sanctioned as well in coming months/years. Both Russia and China need economic and military partners for the future. Its a developing situation, I think Russia would be willing to sell its high end engines now. Likewise, China would also have a more liberal stance sharing its technologies. Russia + China can benefit from funding of its military development/ some R&D money/ learning etc by partnering with Pakistan & Turkey.

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## kursed

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> I am pretty sure you give a lifeline to the folks over your eastern borders....


Nah! They know they'd get effed up either Pak opts to buy into a fifth-gen program or makes one of its own.

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## TOPGUN

The Eagle said:


> During an interview with Rana Mubashir-Aaj News, Mr. Temel Kotil, President & CEO TAI said that TF-X is now a “Turkish-Pakistani fighter”. Dr. Rizwan Riaz (AVM) Pro Dir RIC & VP NSTP adds that it is a 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft in which Pakistan & Turkiye are now collaborating. The link to TV program is as follows along with a documentary picture being shared on the Forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In above TV Program, the concerns have talked about the level of collaboration from the ground level to exchange program. However, details are not being shared in depth but it helps to have a bit of idea about cooperation between both countries.
> 
> View attachment 817565
> 
> 
> 
> *A little background about Pakistan Turkiye possible collaboration in TFX*
> 
> Back in 2017, ACM Sohail Aman said:
> 
> _"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.*
> The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends."
> "I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.
> While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia.* We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two fronts – one mission | Bol Narratives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> web.archive.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> Then after in 2019, during an interview with Alan Warnes, PAC Kamra Chairman, AM Ahmer Shahzad says as follows.
> View attachment 817575
> 
> 
> In view of above statements/interviews, it appears that Pakistan - Turkiye collaboration was discussed before as well and what CEO TAI recently revealed is not totally a new development.
> 
> *Project AZM*
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has formally announced it will commence development of a 5th-generation fighter, medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and munitions under the banner of “Project Azm” (i.e. resolve or determination).
> AvDI’s long-term endeavour is clearly the 5th-generation fighter program (FGF). In the past several years, several factors emerged which analysts thought would shape the PAF’s next-generation fighter pursuits, most notably the rise of the AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon. While the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) is clearly progressing in developing the fighter, it is unclear if the PAF will pursue it. If not the FC-31, then realistically only two other alternate courses remain: the TAI TFX and an original design.
> Pakistan has been billed as a prospective partner in the TFX, Turkey’s next-generation fighter effort. On repeated occasions since 2016, Turkish government and industry and Pakistan MoDP officials confirmed the link. However, the Pakistan MoDP’s statements regarding the matter had only verified Ankara’s invitation, but it was unclear if the approach was commercially oriented (akin to PAC’s work in supplying Anka parts) or in relation to possible PAF procurement.
> The PAF itself did not comment on TFX, but aviation journalist Alan Warnes (who is directly in touch with the PAF) reported in May that the TFX is “likely to figure in the PAF’s new generation fighter requirement.”
> 
> The following details is hereby quoted and copied from Wikipedia as a refresher and for the ease of readers.
> 
> 
> *From the original source **TF - TUSAS*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In order to meet Turkish Air Force (TurAF) requirements beyond 2030s, an indigenous design and development program aims to replace the aging F-16 fleet of TurAF.
> 
> Within the scope of TF-X Program, Turkey will become one of the few countries to possess the necessary technologies, engineering infrastructure and production capabilities. Once the engineering activities on all the critical technologies are accomplished (e.g. increased situational awareness, sensor fusion, low observability, weapon bay, …etc), which are needed by a 5th generation (or beyond) jet fighter aircraft.
> 
> TF-X aircraft is planned to be kept operational in the TurAF inventory until 2070s and will be interoperable with other critical assets of TurAF such as F-35As.
> 
> The TF-X indigenous design and development program prime contract between Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) of Ministry of Turkish National Defence and Turkish Aerospace has been signed on 5th of August 2016.
> 
> The timing of this signature alone, is a key demonstrator of Turkey’s determination of running mega-projects uninterruptedly, even under extra-ordinary conditions.
> 
> Currently, the prime contract covers the initial four (4) years (starting after signature of major subcontracts) which will end up with completion of preliminary design phase. Within this period beyond the design and development of TF-X Aircraft, engineering capabilities, technology development activities (for key sensors like radar, electronic warfare..etc.), test infrastructures establishment and certification processes will be performed and extensive capabilities for a new generation jet fighter design, development and production will be gained by Turkish industry.
> 
> TF-X aircraft will be a multi-role aircraft, it will be designed mainly for air-to-air role with a consideration to air-to-surface roles as well. Upon engineering analysis, TF-X aircraft will be a multi-role aircraft, it will be designed mainly for air-to-air role with a consideration to air-to-surface roles as well. Upon engineering analysis, preliminary calculations, based on received information of suppliers of candidate engines, TF-X aircraft is decided to be a twin engine configuration.
> 
> Turkish Fighter-TF, the 5+ Generation Multirole Fighter Aircraft, provides significant capabilities in both Air to Surface and Air to Air combat requirements. Turkish Aerospace’s survivable, strong and agile platform Turkish Fighter is a fully aware warrior, with intelligent and strong combat capabilities.
> 
> Turkish Fighter provides air dominance through:
> 
> - Increased air to air engagement ranges with Novel Weapons
> - Precise and accurate weapon firing from internal weapon bays at high/supersonic speed
> - Augmented lethality with support of Artificial Intelligence and Neural Networks.
> 
> _Other information including Features & Technical data can be found on official website by visiting the given link as above._
> 
> Article in Combat Aircraft on TF-X from January
> View attachment 817583
> 
> 
> View attachment 817584
> 
> 
> View attachment 817585
> 
> 
> View attachment 817586
> 
> 
> Turkey's most popular defense industry and military aviation news platform disclses as follows.
> The first prototype of National Combat Aircraft (MMU) will reach the assembly phase by the end of this year.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490416128153296900
> 
> Development Schedule Overview (Wikipedia)​Development Phase-1 was expected to officially commence by the end of 2014,[37] however, initial conditions were met and the project has officially started in late 2018.
> 
> On June 30, 2021, Turkish Air Force made an official presentation about the TF-X program to the press. In the presentation, it was stated that Phase-1 Stage-1 had started with preliminary design works, right after T0 stage. As part of preliminary design activities, system requirements review (SRR) is currently being carried out. By the end of 2022, system functionality review (SFR) and system requirements review (SRR) will be completed. Thus, the preliminary design activities will come to an end. The program is expected to go to the next stage by 2023 when the initial roll-out occurs with engines capable of taxiing.[1]
> 
> Phase-1 Stage-2 involves detailed design and qualifications carried out in the 2022-2029 period. The aircraft will roll out in 2023, critical design review (CDR) activities will be carried out in 2024, the production of the first aircraft, called Block-0, will be completed in 2025 and the first flight will be accomplished in 2026. Until that date, TAI aims to manufacture 3 prototypes.[1] The Block-1 configuration is planned to be developed until 2029. Manufacture of 10 Block-1 fighter jets are planned within the scope of Phase-2, and aircraft will be delivered to the Turkish Air Force between 2030 and 2033.[1] In Phase-3, between 2034 and 2040, development and mass production activities of other TF-X blocks is planned.[1]
> 
> Design​TF-X is the first 5th-generation aircraft involving digital twin technology for the design and production.[38][39]
> 
> Requirements​In June 2021, Turkish Air Force, in a presentation made to the press, announced its requirements for minimum capabilities of the TF-X.[1]
> 
> 
> Improved aerodynamics and propulsion
> Super-cruise
> Sufficient and optimized combat radius
> Advanced and internal multi-spectral sensors (EW and RF/IR)
> Low observability
> Sensor fusion and autonomy
> Improved data-link capabilities for network enabled warfare
> High precision stand-off weapons
> Airframe​Hüseyin Yağcı, TAI's chief engineer on the TF-X program, has stated that all three conceptual designs thus far feature a design optimized for low radar cross-sectional density, internal weapons bays, and the ability to supercruise, features associated with fifth-generation fighter jets.[5]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mockup, rear view
> TAI's Advanced Carbon Composites fuselage facility, which was commissioned to produce fuselages for Lockheed Martin's Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) program,[40][41] has been tasked with developing an Advanced Carbon Composite fuselage for the TF-X. The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) has also issued a tender for the development of a new lighter carbon composite thermoplastic for the TF-X fuselage.[42]
> 
> Radar and sensors​ASELSAN is currently developing an advanced active electronically scanned array radar which will use gallium nitride (GaN) technology for the TF-X program.[43]
> 
> Avionics and equipment​The TF-X will be integrated from the cockpit to accompanying UAVs (most likely the TAI Anka) through encrypted datalink connections.[44] The aircraft will likely use upgraded variants of Aselsan's own radar warning receiver (RWR), missile warning system (MWS), laser warning system (LWS), chaff and flare management, dispensing system and digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system, which already deployed with the other air platforms.[45][46]
> 
> Propulsion​Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 engines until national ones are developed by TRMotor.[47][48] There are ongoing negotiations with Rolls-Royce on development of an engine for the TF-X.[49]
> 
> Preliminary specifications​_Data from_ Turkish Aerospace[50]
> 
> *General characteristics*
> 
> 
> *Crew:* One pilot
> *Length:* 21 m (68 ft 11 in)
> *Wingspan:* 14 m (45 ft 11 in)
> *Height:* 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
> *Wing area:* 60 m2 (670 sq ft)
> *Max takeoff weight:* 27,215 kg (60,000 lb)
> *Powerplant:* 2 × General Electric F110 for test flights (national engines to be developed by TRMotor) , 120 kN (27,000 lbf) thrust each
> *Performance*
> 
> 
> *Maximum speed:* 2,222 km/h (1,381 mph, 1,200 kn)
> *Maximum speed:* Mach 1.8[3]
> *Combat range:* 1,100 km (690 mi, 600 nmi)
> *Service ceiling:* 17,000 m (55,000[3] ft)
> *g limits:* +9.0 g & -3.5 g
> *Armament*
> 
> 
> *Missiles:*
> Air-to-air missiles:
> GÖKTUĞ missile program:
> Gökdoğan (Peregrine) BVR active radar homing
> Gökhan BVR active radar homing
> Akdoğan (Peregrine) BVR active radar homing
> Bozdoğan (Merlin) short-range infrared homing
> 
> MBDA Meteor (BVRAAM)
> 
> Air-to-surface missiles:
> SOM Cruise Missile (B1, B2, and J variants)
> KUZGUN-TJ, Turbojet-powered Air-to-surface missile
> KUZGUN-KY, Solid fuel Rocket-powered Air-to-surface missile
> AKBABA, Air-to-surface, Anti-radiation Missile (ARM)
> MBDA SPEAR-3
> 
> 
> *Bombs:*
> Teber-81 (Mark 81 bomb w/ ROKETSAN Laser Guidance Kit)
> HGK-82 (Mark 82 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Precision Guidance Kit)
> KGK-82 (Mark 82 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Wing Assisted Guidance Kit)
> Teber-82 (Mark 82 bomb w/ ROKETSAN Laser Guidance Kit)[51]
> HGK-83 (Mark 83 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Precision Guidance Kit
> KGK-83 (Mark 83 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Wing Assisted Guidance Kit)[52]
> HGK-84 (Mark 84 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Precision Guidance Kit)
> LHGK-84 (Mark 84 bomb w/ TUBITAK-SAGE Laser Sensitive Guidance Kit
> SARB-83, Bunker buster
> NEB-84, Bunker buster
> MAM (Smart Micro Munition) (MAM-T variant)
> KUZGUN-SS, Glide bomb
> ASELSAN Miniature Bomb
> 
> *Avionics*
> 
> 
> IRFS (AESA Radar, Electronic Warfare (EW))
> Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
> Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS) (Infrared Search and Track (IRST), Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) etc.)
> Advanced Cockpit / Human Machine Interface
> 
> It is pertinent to mention here that Project AZM is an umbrella entity by Pakistan to fulfill future defence needs with self reliance & indigenous programs. Without going into details about Project AZM, since the same is already explained and discussed in a dedicated thread, we shall continue here on topic of Pakistan Turkiye JV for NGFA by collaborating in TFX program.
> 
> View attachment 817589



Mashallah more great news !!

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## kursed

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> According to the information obtained by SavunmaSanayiST.com Combining the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) with Pakistan's AZM Project is out of the question at the moment. The news in this direction is also not true.
> 
> SSB employee Yusuf Akbaba made the same statement. Hundreds of forum members fell victim to Kotil's cuteness. Fortunately, I know my CEO. *BRUH
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496206537286725636*


As I said..and you already know. @JamD

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## Bilal.

kursed said:


> As I said..and you already know. @JamD


Yeh bhi nahi… woh bhi nahi. Tau kia kuchh bhi nahi?

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## JamD

kursed said:


> As I said..and you already know. @JamD


Yeah I've been saying this since my first post on this topic.

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## kursed

And my take on this from pure logic would be that PAF will not introduce stealth to the region before IAF. PAF would not want to start a race, by itself. Hence the long game, either TFX will become a reality, at some stage in the future and PAF will buy into the program.

If IAF, by some stroke of luck gets 5th Gen fighters from the West first, PAF has the option to buy a Chinese equivalent. This is pretty much the same course of action taken by J10C buy vs Rafale, they waited until the end for a reason.



Bilal. said:


> Yeh bhi nahi… woh bhi nahi. Tau kia kuchh bhi nahi?


PAF has already more than matched up to the capacity build-up on the other side. The thing most people are still failing to realize is that if a skirmish occurs and PAF goes toe to toe with IAF in the next 2-3 years again, they can punish the enemy AND take a hit.

A J10/JFB3 going down at our end, with a Meteor is far easily replaceable vs a brand new Rafale taken out by PL15 (facing PLAAF and PAF at the same time). Indians would need to invest a hell of lot of more money into the Rafale program if they want to have it viable vs both PAF and PLAAF at the same time. Can you imagine the psychological impact of losing a Rafale, knowing that they won't be able to replace it for a good 5-6 years unless they find a way to convince the French to offload one of theirs? That vs PAF getting a replacement bird within months if ordered new, or within weeks directly from PLAAF stock if need be?

We just need our pilots to survive the skirmish.

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## Irfan Baloch

I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.


we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to F-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.
looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then hand it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turkey being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,

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## Bilal.

kursed said:


> And my take on this from pure logic would be that PAF will not introduce stealth to the region before IAF. PAF would not want to start a race, by itself. Hence the long game, either TFX will become a reality, at some stage in the future and PAF will buy into the program.
> 
> If IAF, by some stroke of luck gets 5th Gen fighters from the West first, PAF has the option to buy a Chinese equivalent. This is pretty much the same course of action taken by J10C buy vs Rafale, they waited until the end for a reason.
> 
> 
> PAF has already more than matched up to the capacity build-up on the other side. The thing most people are still failing to realize is that if a skirmish occurs and PAF goes toe to toe with IAF in the next 2-3 years again, they can punish the enemy AND take a hit.
> 
> A J10/JFB3 going down at our end, with a Meteor is far easily replaceable vs a brand new Rafale taken out by PL15 (facing PLAAF and PAF at the same time). Indians would need to invest a hell of lot of more money into the Rafale program if they want to have it viable vs both PAF and PLAAF at the same time.
> 
> We just need our pilots to survive the skirmish.


Understandable but the horizon for AZM NGF was always going to be 2040ish. So it’s not the current, short or even mid-term threats it was meant for but the purpose was to provide a contemporary aircraft for the world of ~2040 and provide fleet replacement option around 15-20 years from now.


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## TNT

This is great news. We had to collaborate because Pakistan cannot design and develop a 5th gen fighter alone. 
I think they should set the limits high and aim for something similar to F22 in capabilities or better. The top speed of mach 1.8 is not that good and should have above mach 2.5, a stealth fighter should be able to sneak past defences, take out the target n leave quickly. Also it should have a beast mode like F35 where weapons and drop tanks can be carried on hard points.


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## ghazi52



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## KaiserX

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth noting that if Pakistan was genuinely interested, it'd take a few years to just draft the accord/agreement. MMU is serious. It'd take a lot of negotiation, audits, and investigation to figure out offsets, co-production, IP sharing, etc. The amount of money involved would be as much as CPEC.



You gotta be kidding me. Designing, testing, and manufactering a 5th generation fighter is no easy task and something which cant be done by 90% of nations in the world but to put it at CPEC level of technical expertise or funding would be a joke/mistatement. CPEC covers a wide range of different projects estimated at 60bn today more than likely reaching 100bn over the next decade.

In our part of the cost of manufactering/labor/matierials are super cheap compared to developed countries.Give me 5bn USD and ill give you a 5th generation manufactering plant at KAMRA, a few initial prototypes as well as the first squadron of the jets within 5 years 

If you broke the 5bn up I believe the PAF has already spent atleast 500million USD now on the AZM program overall. No clear figures just an estimate. Now going forward work will be split with the Turks. Both sides will start off with the existing infrastructure that has already been developed and go from there.


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## Zarf

Irfan Baloch said:


> I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.
> 
> 
> we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
> Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.
> looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then and it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turky being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,


This is exactly what I am looking for, an answer to a very legitimate question of 'why will they choose us'? Looks only possible when the timeline is pretty long, in my humble opinion.


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## Trailer23

Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.

And TAI wants to fit a *F110-GE-129* to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date. 

Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.

By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.

*Q.* How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - *DOWNFALL*: _The case against BOEING_


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## Flight of falcon

Irfan Baloch said:


> I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.
> 
> 
> we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
> Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.
> looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then and it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turky being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,




When I first joined practice straight out of school I wondered why someone wanted me as an associate. 

20 years later I am the senior associate in my practice . I once asked the owner why he picked me 20 years back when I had hardly any experience and his response was that he saw potential in me. 

Turks are not stupid. They are thinking 20 years in the future . I am very close to some Turkish friends here. They have an ambition, history and dedication with them. They are making strategic investments all over that will pay over time. They are in Africa , Middle East and Central Asia . There are over hundred million people of Turkish heritage outside Turkey. They want to make friends in far away lands and they are perfectly suited in Pakistan where we look up to them as superior in almost every aspect. 

Turks love Pakistan and love our Air Force . There is no denying that. Ask any random Turk on the street in Ankara. 

I personally have no doubt that we shall rise in the next decade and become a regional power. Turks perhaps see the same thing. Why not invest little now and get larger payoff in the future in terms of strategic relationship and rekindle historical and cultural connections?

Sometimes it’s not about the money…… look at the Saudis and UAE … they have all the money but no respect or positive influence any where ……

Fear and money can only take you so far…..

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## kursed

Bilal. said:


> Understandable but the horizon for AZM NGF was always going to be 2040ish. So it’s not the current, short or even mid-term threats it was meant for but the purpose was to provide a contemporary aircraft for the world of ~2040 and provide fleet replacement option around 15-20 years from now.


I doubt there's anything PAF can contribute in the short-term to the Turk program. They will in all probability do what they did with J10 program. That's to develop some internal knowledge base, have a team attached, then buy into the program once it becomes viable. OTOH, if push comes to shove, they have the Chinese option on the table, as is.

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## ghazi52

Pakistan and Turkish Aerospace - Future​


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## Big_bud

Remember this image from PAF? Its a TFX with canards isn't it? Pretty similar.


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## JamD

Trailer23 said:


> Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.
> 
> And TAI wants to fit a *F110-GE-129* to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date.
> 
> Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.
> 
> By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.
> 
> *Q.* How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
> @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> *By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - *DOWNFALL*: _The case against BOEING_


I had a feeling you had seen the documentary while I was reading your post lol.

Nothing that drastic will happen if an aircraft is re-engined with an engine of a similar class. You don't have engines beneath wings causing clearance issues for starters. There are other issues but not 737 max issues.

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## The Eagle

Ghessan said:


> Big question is engine, would Turkey able to develop one and that also in given timeframe, otherwise on what grounds did Pakistan decide to go that route?
> That would be interesting to know.



I will just refer to few developments where Pakistan played a bigger role but however ignored to be noticed since we don't have a nationalist kind of media projection.

Pakistan made it possible for China to reach KSA defence market or vice versa. It was Pakistan's confidence into certain Chinese equipments to make KSA and UAE to look into it. It was Pakistan that made it possible for regional countries to get out of a growing turmoil aka NATO in Afghanistan. It was China that played a bigger role for Pakistan Thunder engine solution. It was Pakistan that even calm the situation between Turkey and China as well. It will be Pakistan without an issue in regards to fighter jet engine since China has already developed and maturing the tech. On other hand, Turkiye is making progress in this area as well. 

Given the key roles played by Pakistan, one cannot ignore the fact that Pakistan can bring in Chinese help to power PT-FX as well. 

As the references being mentioned above, without going into details, China can fill in the possible gap for power plant by Europe/US. When we talk about strategic values, decisions and gains; previously Europe and US were only choices given the lack of any other option to fulfill Defence requirements. Now as we speak, China can fill that gap pretty much effectively and actively. Speaking of Islamic world countries; whether China or Russia, they see Pakistan being a gateway given the importance, strength, certain achievements and only nuclear power that defeats 7 times bigger enemy. A Pakistan with strongest and battle hardened military. A Pakistan which is one of the keys to the region. So such an overview aside, there are less constraints in areas of defence collaboration, in this day and age. Turkiye may not be permitted by NATO to go for Chinese solution but at-least, Pakistan can fly away PAF NGFA with such possible Chinese plant. I personally believe that Pakistan did learn a lesson from ATAK gunship power plant fiasco and wouldn't make such decision in haste without.due consideration of risk involving power plant rejection. However and again, Turkiye has progressed a lot and given the time frame, can come out of such hard times.

The media may not present the right optics but a lot can be done when such major powers are invited with good intentions, to a table for solutions.



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> My beard doesn't know what's inside my head - Fatih Sultan Mehmet Han



May be people wouldn't see it but the way TAI CEO mentioned about Pakistan's help during 2nd world war; it speaks volume of moral, self respect, promising, sincerest and a thankful brotherly nation. Even though, Pakistanis did help for not the fame and thanks but the one who remembers all that from generation to next, is not something to be ignored. Pakistan Turkiye bond is stronger. It was responsibility of our great grand parents to stand with brothers in need of times, therefore, the cooperation and collaboration on highest level can't be doubted. The tree has grown and about to give fruit, so the brothers will eat and enjoy together.

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## tphuang

Trailer23 said:


> Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.
> 
> And TAI wants to fit a *F110-GE-129* to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date.
> 
> Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.
> 
> By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.
> 
> *Q.* How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
> @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> *By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - *DOWNFALL*: _The case against BOEING_



The hardest thing to do in a real 5th generation aircraft is stealth. It takes tremendous amount of industrial strength to first develop a 5th generation aircraft that can maneuver like one and not be overweight while also making it extremely hard to track. You need serious level of manufacturing precision to do everything perfectly so that each aircraft you build has the designed level of stealth.

Just take a look at the Russians. They have decades of experience and they cannot build an aircraft that can really be described as 5th generation. The production quality of the su-57 prototypes were terrible. Got a little better with the 3 production su-57s, but it still isn't at the level you'd expect for a 5th generation aircraft.

Every nationalist have the desire for their nation develop 5th generation aircraft and engine. Guess what, it's really hard. All these European countries that have decades of aircraft development history are still relying 4.5 generation aircraft or waiting for F-35s. Turkey can brag all it wants, but it's most realistic 5th generation options are F-35 or FC-31.


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## ghazi52

Mou was signed by TAI and PAC NUST in Dec 2020...

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## The Eagle

dBSPL said:


> Ignoring the differences regarding the interfaces of the engines: Which engine for example? It would be a huuuge surprise if China proposes a new generation engine for this project. Instead, they can offer their own jets to Pakistan.



I have a crazy idea for engine commonality for PAF. PT-FX for PAF with Chinese engine and so, a single engine 5th Gen JV with China as well. Strike platform plus air superiority. F-16 replaced and so the fulfilling post retirement of 4th gen strike platform.

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## StormBreaker

The Eagle said:


> Nothing is dead neither it has to be taken in other words. NGF falls under AZM which is an umbrella to all new developments in regard to need of Pakistan Defence. I don't know why people keeps missing the point. I have already explained in the OP.
> 
> AZM is all about NGF, UAVs etc so that one thread cannot cater information or the information gets lost in pages. If you mean 100% indigenous for in-house then you should go back to the first page of AZM then read into what ACM Sohail Aman said back in 2017 and then try to understand what's new about Pakistan Turkiye collaboration.


This is a great news indeed.

It has always been my wish to see a Joint project which has Pak, Turk and Middle East as partners. I hope to see UAE getting into TFX as well InshaAllah as it’s a great option for them.

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## The Eagle

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> My worries were correct. At least they support each other in a calibrated way.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496210247962275840



The argument of merger, was wrong from start by those twitter experts. Therefore, social media sensational posts may not be relied upon. Collaboration is repeatedly said and emphasized.

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## Mustang125

KaiserX said:


> few initial prototypes as well as the first squadron of the jets within 5 years


Give me 5 bn and I will run away from the country lol

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## Rana4pak

The Eagle said:


> I have a crazy idea for engine commonality for PAF. PT-FX for PAF with Chinese engine and so, a single engine 5th Gen JV with China as well. Strike platform plus air superiority. F-16 replaced and so the fulfilling post retirement of 4th gen strike platform.


That is not a crazy idea actually PAF following that path way.tTFX along single engine (jf17) some thing like that.

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## peagle

The Eagle said:


> I will just refer to few developments where Pakistan played a bigger role but however ignored to be noticed since we don't have a nationalist kind of media projection.
> 
> Pakistan made it possible for China to reach KSA defence market or vice versa. It was Pakistan's confidence into certain Chinese equipments to make KSA and UAE to look into it. It was Pakistan that made it possible for regional countries to get out of a growing turmoil aka NATO in Afghanistan. It was China that played a bigger role for Pakistan Thunder engine solution. It was Pakistan that even calm the situation between Turkey and China as well. It will be Pakistan without an issue in regards to fighter jet engine since China has already developed and maturing the tech. On other hand, Turkiye is making progress in this area as well.
> 
> Given the key roles played by Pakistan, one cannot ignore the fact that Pakistan can bring in Chinese help to power PT-FX as well.
> 
> As the references being mentioned above, without going into details, China can fill in the possible gap for power plant by Europe/US. When we talk about strategic values, decisions and gains; previously Europe and US were only choices given the lack of any other option to fulfill Defence requirements. Now as we speak, China can fill that gap pretty much effectively and actively. Speaking of Islamic world countries; whether China or Russia, they see Pakistan being a gateway given the importance, strength, certain achievements and only nuclear power that defeats 7 times bigger enemy. A Pakistan with strongest and battle hardened military. A Pakistan which is one of the keys to the region. So such an overview aside, there are less constraints in areas of defence collaboration, in this day and age. Turkiye may not be permitted by NATO to go for Chinese solution but at-least, Pakistan can fly away PAF NGFA with such possible Chinese plant. I personally believe that Pakistan did learn a lesson from ATAK gunship power plant fiasco and wouldn't make such decision in haste without.due consideration of risk involving power plant rejection. However and again, Turkiye has progressed a lot and given the time frame, can come out of such hard times.
> 
> The media may not present the right optics but a lot can be done when such major powers are invited with good intentions, to a table for solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> May be people wouldn't see it but the way TAI CEO mentioned about Pakistan's help during 2nd world war; it speaks volume of moral, self respect, promising, sincerest and a thankful brotherly nation. Even though, Pakistanis did help for not the fame and thanks but the one who remembers all that from generation to next, is not something to be ignored. Pakistan Turkiye bond is stronger. It was responsibility of our great grand parents to stand with brothers in need of times, therefore, the cooperation and collaboration on highest level can't be doubted. The tree has grown and about to give fruit, so the brothers will eat and enjoy together.



Beautiful post, but it was the First world war, before during and after.

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## Trango Towers

Irfan Baloch said:


> I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.
> 
> 
> we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
> Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to F-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.
> looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then hand it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turkey being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,


Sadly you are a very negative person who thinks every aspects of PAC is out in the media. The design development and production aspects are all there.

Sadly every pakistani thinks that even a frying pan made anywhere other than Pakistan is the best and has such advanced tech that we could never make it.

Thank God reality is different from peoples perception

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## Falcon26

Unless Pakistan and Turkey can loop in Saudi Arabia or UAE to join the program, the engine component is doomed to fail. A program that includes either Saudi Arabia or the UAE will entice Rolls Royce to reconsider joining.

If that’s not an option, TFX should be designed with a Russian or Chinese engine in mind. I am very skeptical that Turkey will have a mature engine that can power a 5th generation fighter for at least a decade.

Project AZM was always a pipe dream. I never had high hopes in this mermaid project. It was Pakistan’s version of the LCA, but unlike India, Pakistan neither had the funds nor the time.

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## Big_bud

Irfan Baloch said:


> I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.
> 
> 
> we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
> Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to F-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.
> looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then hand it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turkey being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,



Do you think Turkey can build a indigenous jet on its own? And it would be at par with the rest? Nope... it has taken China 20 years + to be where it is. Turkey can start with making some systems and sub systems, not the whole aircraft.

Do you think Turkey can develop an engine? Nope...

Do you think USA would let Turkey have F110s? Nope... not with Erdogan as the head of state.

TFX had all chances of failure if no one had partnered.

Turkish economy is also suffering. Its credit rating is going down. Turkey is basically experiencing a full scale economic and socio political melt down attempt by USA. Like they have been doing for years with Pakistan.

It is Pakistan in fact which can help Turkey obtain Chinese Engines for TFX. And can get China to assist with where Turkey gets stuck. Pakistan can also invest in the project and ease off the R&D budget. It can also take bulk of mundane and lower skilled manufacturing tasks. Plus with Chinese engines TFX would get customers. With American engines (even if America agrees to sell them) TFX would have not have any customers.

Your analysis is completely wrong and opposite. I believe without China as a collaborator, Turkish TFX has all chances of failure or chronic delays. Or becoming something like Tejas, good on paper, shit in real! Pakistan is the key to such collaboration.

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## CrazyZ

I would expect Azerbaijan and Qatar to join eventually as well...maybe even UAE. MENA Fighter 2030


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## Zarvan

Salza said:


> @Zarvan so this is the western aircraft which was being talked about in j10c thread. Suspense turning into a Lil disappointment because of the expected timelines.


No this is not the one. I never said western air craft I am also making a guess. It is Tipu who referred to something called Butt and I am taking a guess that it's a jet from west. No not this one.


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## Indos

Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> PAF joining TFX program was an eventuality. Pakistan on it's own does not have the resources to design, develop and manufacture 5th generation aircraft even if some foreign country aids us it will take years and years however if we collaborate with turkey and focus on just a few aspects of aircraft production e.g composite materials and airframe production we will in the long term learn how to produce high end high quality airframes and composites .... similarly we can focus on producing and contributing in R&D of electronics/ AESA radar .... Turkey adopted a similar approach and developed it's aviation industry in a short amount of time... TFX also gives access of high end Western avionics and technology to PAF.





Big_bud said:


> Do you think Turkey can build a indigenous jet on its own? And it would be at par with the rest? Nope... it has taken China 20 years + to be where it is. Turkey can start with making some systems and sub systems, not the whole aircraft.
> 
> Do you think Turkey can develop an engine? Nope...
> 
> Do you think USA would let Turkey have F110s? Nope... not with Erdogan as the head of state.
> 
> TFX had all chances of failure if no one had partnered.
> 
> Turkish economy is also suffering. Its credit rating is going down. Turkey is basically experiencing a full scale economic and socio political melt down attempt by USA. Like they have been doing for years with Pakistan.
> 
> It is Pakistan in fact which can help Turkey obtain Chinese Engines for TFX. And can get China to assist with where Turkey gets stuck. Pakistan can also invest in the project and ease off the R&D budget. It can also take bulk of mundane and lower skilled manufacturing tasks. Plus with Chinese engines TFX would get customers. With American engines (even if America agrees to sell them) TFX would have not have any customers.
> 
> Your analysis is completely wrong and opposite. I believe without China as a collaborator, Turkish TFX has all chances of failure or chronic delays. Or becoming something like Tejas, good on paper, shit in real! Pakistan is the key to such collaboration.



There are 100 BAE System engineers working on TFX design phase, that numbers are huge.

About engine, it will use American F 110 GE engine.

This is the right time to join since Turkey is in difficult situation. There will be deal on the level of participation, if Pakistan make it quick, it can still contribute on CDR design phase as one of Turkish member said TFX is still in PDR (Preliminary Design Phase).

Manufacturing can be quite significant as partner like PAK will become part of supply chain for fuselage parts and do the assembling and system integration for PAK order.

Turkey will likely become more friendly partner on the program compared to China. Something like internship program to work in TAI for young engineers and many kind of training program to young engineers can happen with Turkey as senior partner.

Not to mention, testing phase and further development that will touch even design phase again and wind tunnel testing which is normal for continuous development

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## Thorough Pro

PDF members should learn from 10-year-old Turkish Kids.

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## KaiserX

There is no way the US nor Europe would allow Turkey access to fighter engines. In the beginning they will make false promises to get contracts and funding. When the time comes for production they will pull the rugs from right under the feet of the project. Unless there is a complete geopolitical U turn in the next 2-3 years, highly unlikely. US defence companies work according to US foreign policy. Turkey/Pakistan are naughty boys and are allies in name but highly out of favor. This put both nations in a tricky spot where 1 is a NATO ally and the other a NON-NATO ally (which the US is also legally required to protect militarily by law).

US does not want to make Europe especially Greece and France unhappy when it comes to Turkey. Likewise for India when it comes to Pakistan. This makes China the natural benefactor when it comes to military contracts involved in the TFX venture. I can easily see SAC/CAC now replacing BAE/Lockheed/Raytheon in a major International military project that TFX will become. With the Inclusion of Pakistan the export market for the TFX expands significantly manyfold. We all know the reputation/influence of the PAF on the airforces in the middle east/africa/east asia.

This is how west applies pressure. More than likely Pakistan will design its version of the TFX around Chinese engines and also use a combination of Chinese/Domestic/Turkish subsystems. I would not be surprised if Pakistans version of the TFX is a lot closer to the J-31 than the Turkish version of the TFX. Call me crazy, but ive pointed out many times before that logically it made sense for KAMRA to go with a joint venture for the AZM fighter. Now I strongly believe the Engines/ Avionics/ Possibly even the AESA radar will all be Chinese made 

Just my 2 cents.

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## Indos

Trailer23 said:


> Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.
> 
> And TAI wants to fit a *F110-GE-129* to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date.
> 
> Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.
> 
> By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.
> 
> *Q.* How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
> @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> *By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - *DOWNFALL*: _The case against BOEING_



For the engine, I believe they are going to use F 110 even during mass production. Turkey engine I rather see as side project, PAK should not bear the engine development cost unless PAK can get meaningful TOT and shared production.

What Pakistan should take if they want to join TFX beside what I said in above post is assurance from USA about the use of F 110 into TFX program.

Erdo will likely be replaced in the next election


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## KaiserX

Indos said:


> For the engine, I believe they are going to use F 110 even during mass production. Turkey engine I rather see as side project, PAK should not bear the engine development cost unless PAK can get meaningful TOT and shared production.
> 
> What Pakistan should take if they want to join TFX beside what I said in above post is assurance from USA about the use of F 110 into TFX program.
> 
> Erdo will likely be replaced in the next election



No way US will provide Turkey nor Pakistan F110 engines under the current geopolitical scenario. It would risk irking key EU members, India, and Many middle eastern states including the UAE/KSA.

Pakistan would most likely design its version of the TFX around Chinese engines and subsystems (AESA radar).


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## CrazyZ

Indos said:


> For the engine, I believe they are going to use F 110 even during mass production. Turkey engine I rather see as side project, PAK should not bear the engine development cost unless PAK can get meaningful TOT and shared production.
> 
> What Pakistan should take if they want to join TFX beside what I said in above post is assurance from USA about the use of F 110 into TFX program.
> 
> Erdo will likely be replaced in the next election


Bad taste from T129 saga......Pakistan should never use a USA engine in its version of TFX. USA is simple not a reliable partner for Pakistan or Turkey. For PAF, better options will be Chinese or Russian engines since they will compatible with JF-17 (hence improve logistics for PAF). Either upgraded versions of RD93 or Chinese equivalent. Best would be a local MENA engine....but based on experience in other countries....this may take some time to get right.

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## Big_bud

Indos said:


> There are 100 BAE System engineers working on TFX design phase, that numbers are huge.
> 
> About engine, it will use American F 110 GE engine.
> 
> This is the right time to join since Turkey is in difficult situation. There will be deal on the level of participation, if Pakistan make it quick, it can still contribute on CDR design phase as one of Turkish member said TFX is still in PDR (Preliminary Design Phase).
> 
> Manufacturing can be quite significant as partner like PAK will become part of supply chain for fuselage parts and do the assembling and system integration for PAK order.
> 
> Turkey will likely become more friendly partner on the program compared to China. Something like internship program to work in TAI for young engineers and many kind of training program to young engineers can happen with Turkey as senior partner.
> 
> Not to mention, testing phase and further development that will touch even design phase again and wind tunnel testing which is normal for continuous development



What makes you think BAE System co-operation would not be pulled out by US interreference at any time? Remember Grumen pulling out of JF17 program?

Turkey won't be getting F110s. Just like its not getting F35s. That's how west/US behaves. You are liberal/non-islamic country? You get what you want. But if you have your own belief system, specially Islamic system. You are picked on. Perhaps you won't get this. Turkey needs co-operation otherwise it would have serious defence issues. Depending on west's assessment of Turkish motives, Turkey can see tribulations in every and anything it tries to do.


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## Flight of falcon

I think members are missing one crucial point. Turkey perhaps lost a lot more than what Pakistan did. Turkey lost billions, prestige, chance to break into combat helicopter market among many other critical issues. 

After F35 saga that are well aware that they will never achieve anything unless their reliance on American technology is removed. They will still get tremendous amount of help from the European companies and I am confident they will be able to develop replacements for American hardware.

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## Indos

CrazyZ said:


> Bad taste from T129 saga......Pakistan should never use a USA engine in its version of TFX. USA is simple not a reliable partner for Pakistan or Turkey. For PAF, better options will be Chinese or Russian engines since they will compatible with JF-17. Either upgraded versions of RD93 or Chinese equivalent. Best would be a local MENA engine.





Big_bud said:


> What makes you think BAE System co-operation would not be pulled out by US interreference at any time? Remember Grumen pulling out of JF17 program?
> 
> Turkey won't be getting F110s. Just like its not getting F35s. That's how west/US behaves. You are liberal/non-islamic country? You get what you want. But if you have your own belief system, specially Islamic system. You are picked on. Perhaps you won't get this. Turkey needs co-operation otherwise it would have serious defence issues. Depending on west's assessment of Turkish motives, Turkey can see tribulations in every and anything it tries to do.



If engine is the issue then PAK Kamra should negotiate with Chinese, Chinese J31/21 is also plan to be sold to international market and with local manufacturing contribution.

Compare TFX with China offer, then make wise and clever decision, now as Turkey has been approaching PAK, then it can be used as leverage to have good deal with China.

What I see as more positive with Turkey is that TAI is already quite global company with many engineers coming from BAE System and many I believe comes from other Western region. They use English, while Chinese use Mandarin. It is easier to collaborate with Turkish than Chinese based on the environment and also the same culture ( Islam ).



KaiserX said:


> No way US will provide Turkey nor Pakistan F110 engines under the current geopolitical scenario. It would risk irking key EU members, India, and Many middle eastern states including the UAE/KSA.
> 
> Pakistan would most likely design its version of the TFX around Chinese engines and subsystems (AESA radar).



Dont be so negative, ask first

Yup it is risky, but I am still hopeful eventually Turkish engine will happen someday inshaAllah. TEI is practically JV between Turkish company and General Electric from USA

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm not worried about any of the infrastructure. If the PAF rolls AZM into TFX, then either AvRID/PAC would use those facilities to support TFX, or TAI will buy those sites as part of an offset agreement (to carry out Pakistan's side of the work). None of that capacity is blocker, IMHO. If there's anything useful, it'll roll into TFX or some other key program.


From interview its pretty obvious that PAF is fully invested in the TFX. Its was calles a TFX-PAKISTAN fighter by turkishand pakistani side with a model

Seems pakistan simply decides that the fighter develped by turks fits its requirement 
I think this will be better for us as compared to chinese JV given china doesnt need us but turkey does need us for finances, scalibility and possibly acess to some of the chinese technology/help

Turkey and europe are pretty integrated ans turkey is still the man power of NATO. Europe will provide some technologies to turkey as it has always done



Flight of falcon said:


> I think members are missing one crucial point. Turkey perhaps lost a lot more than what Pakistan did. Turkey lost billions, prestige, chance to break into combat helicopter market among many other critical issues.
> 
> After F35 saga that are well aware that they will never achieve anything unless their reliance on American technology is removed. They will still get tremendous amount of help from the European companies and I am confident they will be able to develop replacements for American hardware.


I think turkey will have an engine..they are actively talking to ukraine and several other countries their chopper is almost ready

Turkey pakistan should do JV on everything IMO and invite other like minded countries like azerbhijan, qatar for starters

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## untitled

I often get confused between the logos of the French Air Force and TAI/TUSAS


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## KaiserX

Flight of falcon said:


> I think members are missing one crucial point. Turkey perhaps lost a lot more than what Pakistan did. Turkey lost billions, prestige, chance to break into combat helicopter market among many other critical issues.
> 
> After F35 saga that are well aware that they will never achieve anything unless their reliance on American technology is removed. They will still get tremendous amount of help from the European companies and I am confident they will be able to develop replacements for American hardware.



The Director of TAI said it very clearly on Pakistan TV... Something along the lines of (translation)-

Turkey values a partnership with Pakistan in the TFX project because we share certain values and enemies. BAE has already pulled out of the project. Some subcontracting work was done and completed already.

Both sides gain but the Turks in my opinion gain far more. They went to British were turned down. Then went to Russia and even Ukraine but did not get a response. Pakistan was there last viable option.

When it comes to funding there is also the Qatar angle. With Pakistans inclusion this opens up funding from UAE/KSA as well. This makes TFX look more like an "Islamic" Fighter. If a major partner such as UAE/KSA is bought on board then I definately see the number of fighters produced increase significantly. This would

1) Decrease cost due to economies of scale (more fighters produced)
2) Make it far more profitable for US/GE to supply the F110 engines. Due to the UAE/KSA participation this could make it easier for the US congress to approve geopolitically. 

Again I am not saying this is likely but the Gulf is sunni and is also facing Iran. The biggest geopolitical threat to Pakistan, Turkey, and Gulf today is Iran. Why do I say that for Pakistan? Simply put India has become far to occupied with China. Iran has stepped up and will continue to step up support to anti-state proxy groups. Things will get bad to worse not just vis via Pakistan but all neighbors.

The Gulf is flush with cash and will have to replace hundreds of 4th generation fighters over the next decades.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Seems like a proper project with good *10-12 year development life cycle*
However if there is no "Engine" , it is not ideal situation *T-129 mistakes* should not be repeated

T-129 was great deal but third party soured the deal , yes with Local Turkish engine may be there is hope but same should not be done with any future plans for NGF

Engine /Jet needs to be manufactured inhouse for Project

License production of Jet should be negotiated first in case the engine will be from Trusted partner who will deliver


Chinese Engine
Russian Engine
Turkish-Pakistani , indigenous effort

*Record of failed delivery (US obviously)*

F-16's in 90's
No reply on request for AWACs
Failed release of coalition support funding
Failed delivery of Super Cobras
Failed delivery of F16 under Applicable discount
Failed delivery of approval for T-129 Engines
Gave us a Tug Boat OHP with no weapons 

*French *

Lack of Parts for Mirages back in 00's

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## iLION12345_1

mourning sage said:


> I admire your optimism. Unfortunately, I had the unique pleasure of studying at SMME. It was Pakistan's toughest Mech Eng to get into, barring GIKI but for GIKi there is a huge financial tag that most students cant afford, so SMME it was for me. The state of mech eng there and the general engineering scene at NUST and its associated sister colleges was quite poor and from the stories I hear, is only worsening. Internal, petty politics, right from the Rector level to the Principle to the HoD of each department has ruined whatever was left of the school. Personally, the last nail in the coffin was the departure of Dr. Ghafoor as the Principle after his disagreement over power sharing with the then rector. SMME has seen massive decline in quality. I can say this because I work directly with SMME and its students. More to the point, the post-grads show very very little promise.
> 
> SEECs faired much better though, it had a vibrant CS department that was flourishing but that's pretty much it. The research however undertaken there too was quite limited in nature. Every good researcher from my batch left Pakistan for the US or EU and has absolutely no interest in going back. Without a massive revolution in the way our universities are run, the aviation city won't produce a lot of results.


Air Uni is unfortunately not the kind of Uni that comes to mind when I think “research and development”

If anything the most qualified Uni to carry out any of this research work is NUST CEME (yes the army one). Most of NUST labs are there and they get relatively more funding (which is still peanuts unfortunately). Their focus on defense projects and their ability to work together with other campuses of NUST would be key.

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## Flight of falcon

KaiserX said:


> The Director of TAI said it very clearly on Pakistan TV... Something along the lines of (translation)-
> 
> Turkey values a partnership with Pakistan in the TFX project because we share certain values and enemies. BAE has already pulled out of the project. Some subcontracting work was done and completed already.
> 
> Both sides gain but the Turks in my opinion gain far more. They went to British were turned down. Then went to Russia and even Ukraine but did not get a response. Pakistan was there last viable option.
> 
> When it comes to funding there is also the Qatar angle. With Pakistans inclusion this opens up funding from UAE/KSA as well. This makes TFX look more like an "Islamic" Fighter. If a major partner such as UAE/KSA is bought on board then I definately see the number of fighters produced increase significantly. This would
> 
> 1) Decrease cost due to economies of scale (more fighters produced)
> 2) Make it far more profitable for US/GE to supply the F110 engines. Due to the UAE/KSA participation this could make it easier for the US congress to approve geopolitically.
> 
> Again I am not saying this is likely but the Gulf is sunni and is also facing Iran. The biggest geopolitical threat to Pakistan, Turkey, and Gulf today is Iran. Why do I say that for Pakistan? Simply put India has become far to occupied with China. Iran has stepped up and will continue to step up support to anti-state proxy groups. Things will get bad to worse not just vis via Pakistan but all neighbors.
> 
> The Gulf is flush with cash and will have to replace hundreds of 4th generation fighters over the next decades.





Please leave Saudis out of this. They are investing billions in new Golf league …. Which no one wants to play.

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## 星海军事

Big_bud said:


> Do you think Turkey can build a indigenous jet on its own? And it would be at par with the rest? Nope... it has taken China 20 years + to be where it is. Turkey can start with making some systems and sub systems, not the whole aircraft.
> 
> Do you think Turkey can develop an engine? Nope...
> 
> Do you think USA would let Turkey have F110s? Nope... not with Erdogan as the head of state.
> 
> TFX had all chances of failure if no one had partnered.
> 
> Turkish economy is also suffering. Its credit rating is going down. Turkey is basically experiencing a full scale economic and socio political melt down attempt by USA. Like they have been doing for years with Pakistan.
> 
> It is Pakistan in fact which can help Turkey obtain Chinese Engines for TFX. And can get China to assist with where Turkey gets stuck. Pakistan can also invest in the project and ease off the R&D budget. It can also take bulk of mundane and lower skilled manufacturing tasks. Plus with Chinese engines TFX would get customers. With American engines (even if America agrees to sell them) TFX would have not have any customers.
> 
> Your analysis is completely wrong and opposite. I believe without China as a collaborator, Turkish TFX has all chances of failure or chronic delays. Or becoming something like Tejas, good on paper, shit in real! Pakistan is the key to such collaboration.


Agree with most of the part but I suppose Turkey won't allow China or Russia to involve in the program and China don't have a suitable engine on shelf for such a heavy fighter itself as well.

Speaking of Tejas, I suppose it is an inappropriate comparison since India has a maturer aviation industry and less impeded trade than Turkey. The obstacles along the way of TFX are only likely to be even more.


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## dBSPL

Officially, TFX is an 11-year old project. If you include some other MMU-related processes and works, you can go much further back. During this time, there was a process in which hundreds of pages could be written. But anyway, Turkiye has never had a problem with producing licensed fighter jets or producing engines under license. Turkiye has invested in the capacity to produce its own design-test and engine in this period of approximately 20 years. Financial requirements were secured by government decrees. The workforce is structured.

Now the project has materializing. It will roll out of the hangar in its 12th year. It will fly in its 15th year. In its 20th year, integration activities with the main engine will begin. In its 25th year, it will reach the highest operational level with block 4.

So far the schedule has progressed very successfully. Could there be delays from now on? Of course its possible. But this process is irreversible anymore.

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## Battlion25

dBSPL said:


> Officially, TFX is an 11-year old project. If you include some other MMU-related processes and works, you can go much further back. During this time, there was a process in which hundreds of pages could be written. But anyway, Turkiye has never had a problem with producing licensed fighter jets or producing engines under license. Turkiye has invested in the capacity to produce its own design-test and engine in this period of approximately 20 years. Financial requirements were secured by government decrees. The workforce is structured.
> 
> Now the project has materializing. It will roll out of the hangar in its 12th year. It will fly in its 15th year. In its 20th year, integration activities with the main engine will begin. In its 25th year, it will reach the highest operational level with block 4.
> 
> So far the schedule has progressed very successfully. Could there be delays from now on? Of course its possible. But this process is irreversible anymore.



11-years?


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## Indos

Battlion25 said:


> 11-years?



Relatively the same year with the start of KF21/IFX first phase development in 2011.

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## CrazyZ

Indos said:


> If engine is the issue then PAK Kamra should negotiate with Chinese, Chinese J31/21 is also plan to be sold to international market and with local manufacturing contribution.
> 
> Compare TFX with China offer, then make wise and clever decision, now as Turkey has been approaching PAK, then it can be used as leverage to have good deal with China.
> 
> What I see as more positive with Turkey is that TAI is already quite global company with many engineers coming from BAE System and many I believe comes from other Western region. They use English, while Chinese use Mandarin. It is easier to collaborate with Turkish than Chinese based on the environment and also the same culture ( Islam ).
> 
> 
> 
> Dont be so negative, ask first
> 
> Yup it is risky, but I am still hopeful eventually Turkish engine will happen someday inshaAllah. TEI is practically JV between Turkish company and General Electric from USA


Pakistan wants to support MENA cooperation and military industrial development. Joining TFX accomplishes both as well as strengthen its own internal arms industries. Pakistan China ties will remain strong for the foreseeable future....so Chinese AC will always be available for purchase.

World is now clearly multi-polar....and a MENA regional bloc could be player in its own right. USA is only focused on alliance with narrow set of countries: Isreal, UK, and the Quad. Zionist and Indian interests in USA will insure that any MENA bloc....especially one that includes Turkey and Pakistan will be treated adversely. America is simply not a reliable partner for any MENA country. Pakistan, Turkey, UAE, KSA......all let down with alliance with USA.

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## dBSPL

Battlion25 said:


> 11-years?


With the Defense Industry Executive Committee decisions on 15 December 2010; It has been decided to start contract negotiations with TAI for the conceptual design, as a project to develop the need for jet trainers and fighters of the Air Force Command after the 2030s, with national resources.

The conceptual design phase of TF-X was initiated by TAI as of 2011, and the conceptual design studies were completed on September 29, 2013.

If you're asking the Prelimanary design phase(Phase1 Stage1), T0 started in 2018. The project is about 1 year ahead of the targeted schedule.

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## Big_bud

星海军事 said:


> Agree with most of the part but I suppose Turkey won't allow China or Russia to involve in the program and China don't have a suitable engine on shelf for such a heavy fighter itself as well.
> 
> Speaking of Tejas, I suppose it is an inappropriate comparison since India has a maturer aviation industry and less impeded trade than Turkey. The obstacles along the way of TFX are only likely to be even more.




WS 10 is in the same class as GE110 engine.

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## IceCold

The Eagle said:


> Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 engines until national ones are developed by TRMotor.[47][48] There are ongoing negotiations with Rolls-Royce on development of an engine for the TF-X.[49]


The above is a major area of concern for Pakistan. We do not want to end up like the T129 deal. Any western component should be a no-go area for us.

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## 星海军事

Big_bud said:


> WS 10 is in the same class as GE110 engine.


The target engine should be a WS-15 class.

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## Battlion25

星海军事 said:


> The target engine should be a WS-15 class.



The final design will be local turbofine engine


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## Ghessan

The Eagle said:


> Given the key roles played by Pakistan, one cannot ignore the fact that Pakistan can bring in Chinese help to power PT-FX as well.




since you bring in PT-FX 

so does it mean both Turkey and Pakistan can go to their own choice of engine? how is it possible?


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## Qutb-ud-din-Aibak

It will have 100% indigenous Turkish Turbofine engine


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## Indos

Battlion25 said:


> The final design will be local turbofine engine



The design will be the same, the local turbojet engine will mimic F 110 engine

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## YeBeWarned

What it could mean that PAC is looking for Turkish expertise in their own AZM, its pretty obvious that T-FX will fly before AZM and turks have far more experience with Aviation then Pakistan, specially because of Turks exposures to Europeans and American companies, I think its just a, thing as we call it in Pakistan, " Bhai ke liye itna bhi nai kare ga ab " ?


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## Riz

Irfan Baloch said:


> I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.
> 
> 
> we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
> Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to F-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.
> looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then hand it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turkey being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,


You are right, but to be frank there is definitely something which we had offered to them and they could not decline

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## arjunk

Endians will shit their pants when they see this






Azad Kashmir superpower by 2030

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## Zhukov

Collaboration with advanced weapon industry like turkey is good decision. But is this really the best option?.
Turkey has strong economy and can procure from multiple sources. Pakistan on the other hand has limited sources and bad economy. And we will be solely dependent on this program for our future Jet.
Besides, all the western tech turkey have is offlimit to us thanks to our relations with USA. Only Turkish indeginiois tech is available. So the turkish TFX can have as much as US tech as they want while our AZM will have only Turkish or our own tech.

Hope for the best. But things look complicated. (TAI 129 Helicopters ☹️ flashbacks)

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## Deino

mingle said:


> Only Hurdle for PAF are engines





SD 10 said:


> where is the engine going to come form? and what about armaments? can turks make BVR as capable as meteor or PL15?





Trailer23 said:


> Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.
> 
> And TAI wants to fit a *F110-GE-129* to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date.
> 
> Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.
> 
> By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.
> 
> *Q.* How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
> @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> *By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - *DOWNFALL*: _The case against BOEING_




Exactly and as such I see two points of concern due to two different paths this project can proceed:

*1. Both variants will use the same engine:*

I still see barely a chance that Turkey can develop an own engine for that heavy fighter up to their schedule (2028) and even if any cooperation projects mentioned above based on either a RR or GE design will result in such an engine - as long as it is using Western engines - I see no chance for Pakistan to get them especially due to Pakistan's close connections to China. As such I'm sure, either Turkey has to rewrite its schedule for the definitive variant due to delays or it means the Pakistani variant will use a different engine. 

*2. Pakistan's variant will use a different engine*

As per my information the most likely option will be a Chinese-supplied engine and the latest J-10C assumes it to be a WS-10-based design rather what some suggest a WS-15. (Indeed; I've heard rumours too a +145kN WS-10-variant is being proposed) I cannot think that China would sell its crown-jewel on engine technology to a project, which has Western connections. Anyway, such a Chinese engine - supplied in a similar way like Russia one supplied the AL-31FN to China for its J-10 - however requires again changes to the airframe in comparison to the Turkish variant and as such delays for the PAF ...

Either way, it is unique and again delaying development to build an aircraft specified for three vastly different engines: GE-129 for the prototypes, then one for Turkey with an own engine and eventually a Pakistani variant using a Chinese one.



arjunk said:


> Endians will shit their pants when they see this
> View attachment 817793
> 
> 
> Azad Kashmir superpower by 2030




Why that yellow part of the wing?

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## Bilal.

Deino said:


> Why that yellow part of the wing?


Azad Kashmir Flag.

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## Princeps Senatus

Zarf said:


> Just for my knowledge, I want to ask why Pakistan choose turkey for its 5th Generation Fighter and not let's say China?


China is not offering us any


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## Trailer23

JamD said:


> I had a feeling you had seen the documentary while I was reading your post lol.


Watched it during Cruise on a B737-Max.

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## Princeps Senatus

Zarf said:


> This is exactly what I am looking for, an answer to a very legitimate question of 'why will they choose us'? Looks only possible when the timeline is pretty long, in my humble opinion.


They are not "choosing us" we are "choosing them". We are their first, and the only customer so far. They won't be giving us the fighters for free we will be purchasing them.

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## EternalMortal

Some of you are jumping the gun but in reverse due to that SavunmaSanayiST tweet which said the *MERGER* of the MMU & AZM NGAF is not true.

However, the TAI CEO said they're collaborating on a "Turkish-Pakistani" fighter. Furthermore, if you watch the video the *Pakistani AVM/VP NSTP CONFIRMED* it right after so it wasn't just the CEO exaggerating & being "cute".

Merger & collaboration are mutually exclusive. I agree people jumped the gun on the merger part but the collaboration is definitely there.

@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RadarGudumluMuhimmat @kursed

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## mourning sage

iLION12345_1 said:


> Air Uni is unfortunately not the kind of Uni that comes to mind when I think “research and development”
> 
> If anything the most qualified Uni to carry out any of this research work is NUST CEME (yes the army one). Most of NUST labs are there and they get relatively more funding (which is still peanuts unfortunately). Their focus on defense projects and their ability to work together with other campuses of NUST would be key.



I wouldn't even factor in any other university other than NUST into the whole equation. That in itself is the crux of the problem. We don't have any private or public university capable of venturing into a bold R&D venture. While EME might have some semblance of infrastructure, military men bring with them a culture, a thought-process and a way of live that just snubs any R&D/innovation out of students and the civilian faculty. 

I am really sorry to say this but every fauji-engineer working at PAC, EME, studying at post-grad level in SMME, or present in an administrative capacity in NUST (_I have come across_) has struck me as rather stupid. Like actually stupid. Engineering was not one of their forte. I've been extremely skeptical about this aviation city crap that airforce wants to start. It is most certainly an extra-ordinary vision but the ground realities are not changed simply by vision. 

Also, for some reason, Pakistani institutions believe that Maths is an unnecessary skill set for an engineer. SNS used to supply the Math professors in entire NUST and you know who went to SNS? The ones who failed in getting into any other engineering discipline! Honestly, the only reason why I cant achieve more right now is because my math sucks, even though I am an engineer! and graduated in the top 10 of the class at SMME! I can say the same for every other graduate coming out of Pakistani schools. The fundamentals are weak in Pakistan and there is no realisation of this. Maths was just a personal example that is holding me back.

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## The Eagle

Ghessan said:


> since you bring in PT-FX
> 
> so does it mean both Turkey and Pakistan can go to their own choice of engine? how is it possible?



AZM is Pakistan. An engine relatively same in class and performance, can be done with little changes & we call it NGFA.

I wanted to add further in general prospective that, those buildings & facilities are not built to be abandoned & left vacant. PAC has experience and knowledge by working on a 4th Gen Joint Venture and a lot being learnt. Given the TAI expertise it is their first A/C even though they jumped on 5th Gen directly, PAC is already experienced in 4th Gen class and that is the foundation to progress. In my humble opinion, there is a natural course to progress onto certain level of advancement. Even though, Turkiye has been producing jets under license built condition but that point of experience to be gained from a 4th Gen A/C as an important part to progress was missing. Therefore, as said before that brothers will eat fruit together; PAC joins with all the expertise and TAI is in with the resources as well. 

Secondly, nobody exactly knows the economic input by Pakistan or even the facts about economic condition at PAC. AVRiD and those infrastructures aren't built in vain and to be lost like that. However, this is our moment of like back in 80s going for Nuclear. Nothing made public for brownie points but the process will continue given the existing expertise & capacity. Pakistan has many constraints given the resources including Money but that doesn't mean to never start on anything. The time line & targeted goals pretty much explains that PAF NGF is not coming tomorrow or even before 30s. A lot of time to spent, a lot of chance & opportunities to progress with economy and a lot of experience to be gained.

Given PAC history with China & honestly speaking, if one look at development of JF-17 Thunder and Pakistan input for J-10C and even J-20 or that input which ends up with top notch Chinese Fighter Jets; here one might be looking at same trajectory. PAC needs a fighter for PAF and has the experience with 4th Gen whereby TAI has resources and can progress, will be getting help in areas needed and will support in areas that PAC requires. Even though if it is not a direct TF-X purchase; Pakistan will still gain a lot of experience and can use TAI facilities in future as well. 

PAF NGF is not dead neither abandoned. We might see different sources & friends as well getting involved. May be this particular subject is not about direct involvement in TF-X but as far as Pakistan is involved in program; it will be bringing a lot to home. In the meantime, Pakistan economic conditions will be stabilizing to afford NGF program under AZM. In the meantime, Pakistan will be progressing and will be able to hire expertise. Indeed, nothing comes free. 

We shall not undermine & downplay Pakistan experience in this area. I agree that people don't have anything on paper officially released to make them believe but, Pakistan is doing a lot. Neither those facilities under construction nor that program under national supervision are abandoned. Nothing can be said clearly at the moment but, Pakistan is collaborating with Turkiye and so will call in China as well for NGF. Doors are not closed. Turkiye might not involve China but PAF NGF can be done with both parties. We might start with a single engine design before building a heavy twin engine 5th Gen Fighter. That design can be brought to home or can be done in partnering since a lot can be adjusted in off-set cooperation.



EternalMortal said:


> people jumped the gun on the merger



Nobody from PDF jumped as such except for those self claimed Twitter Accounts believing in that I know it all. Those kind of accounts are real embarrassment that makes a certain media house to issue a statement to counter.

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## Falcon26

I have to say the guy interviewing has probably the worst interviewing skills I have ever seen. Instead of asking follow up questions and gaining clarity from his guests, he was too busy laughing and acting more like a Turkey fanboy than a real journalist.

Total wast of time because the interview created more confusions and questions instead of clarity and new insights.

I wonder where he went for journalism school. He should ask for a refund.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

EternalMortal said:


> Some of you are jumping the gun but in reverse due to that SavunmaSanayiST tweet which said the *MERGER* of the MMU & AZM NGAF is not true.
> 
> However, the TAI CEO said they're collaborating on a "Turkish-Pakistani" fighter. Furthermore, if you watch the video the *Pakistani AVM/VP NSTP CONFIRMED* it right after so it wasn't just the CEO exaggerating & being "cute".
> 
> Merger & collaboration are mutually exclusive. I agree people jumped the gun on the merger part but the collaboration is definitely there.
> 
> @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RadarGudumluMuhimmat @kursed


I did not say that they do not cooperate, I said that the planes (TFX-AZM) are not the same projects. The sources I gave are not a troll who said that CHINA - Pakistan and Turkey will develop UAVs until 1 month ago, but an SSB employee and one of the official accredited media organizations of the SSB. Also, in the continuation of the video, the Pakistani official confirms that there are already 2 different planes, what is this discussion about?

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## Xone

Turkey and Pakistan are allies who are experiencing similar threats and restrictions. going together will bring lots of opportunities to both. Turkey can avail of Chinese equipment easily as and when needed especially fighter jets equipped with easa radars and other goodies. Pakistan is combining experience and expertise got j10 and f 16 technologies with Turkey to make a new hybrid system. Turkey has worked on radar absorption materials and missile weaponery. 
They will try to do what is not available to both neither from the west and the east to them. looking for real value to their defense in testing times and poor performing economies.


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## Windjammer



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## tphuang

Indos said:


> The design will be the same, the local turbojet engine will mimic F 110 engine



do you have an idea how hard it is to "mimic" F-110 engine.



dBSPL said:


> But anyway, Turkiye has never had a problem with producing licensed fighter jets or producing engines under license. Turkiye has invested in the capacity to produce its own design-test and engine in this period of approximately 20 years.


India has also never had a problem with license producing fighter jet and engine. How are they doing on the self development front?
I don't think people have quite an appreciation of how hard it is to mass produce something at F-110-GE-129 level.



星海军事 said:


> The target engine should be a WS-15 class.


And why would China supply WS-15 to a project headed by Turkey?



Princeps Senatus said:


> China is not offering us any


That's because China does not need Pakistan assistance in developing a 5th generation aircraft. When the time comes, FC-31 will be available for Pakistan. But keep in mind, FC-31/J-35 is still in prototype stage right now. There is not a lot of point in getting a 5th generation aircraft until it's in service somewhere with a reliable engine. Until then, it's all talk.

Look at Russia's experience with su-57, all talk. A country with decades of experiencing building modern fighter jet struggles to produce a few production worthy su-57. And now will probably have to delay the program further to provide funding for an Ukraine invasion.

I do expect Tempest and FCA to be developed, but they look closer to 5th generation aircraft right now rather than the 6th generation aircraft that they claim to be. And it will take a long time before they get put into production.

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## Indos

tphuang said:


> do you have an idea how hard it is to "mimic" F-110 engine.



Mimic in here means similar in diameter, weight, lenght, same like you Chinese do the same with Russian engine.

Is it hard to understand ?? I have already stated about the design will be the same between TFX with F 110 and TFX with local engine.


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## Princeps Senatus

tphuang said:


> That's because China does not need Pakistan assistance in developing a 5th generation aircraft. When the time comes, FC-31 will be available for Pakistan. But keep in mind, FC-31/J-35 is still in prototype stage right now. There is not a lot of point in getting a 5th generation aircraft until it's in service somewhere with a reliable engine. Until then, it's all talk.


Why not the J-20? I mean USA is selling F-35s to it's allies


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## retaxis

Indos said:


> Mimic in here means similar in diameter, weight, lenght, same like you Chinese do the same with Russian engine.
> 
> Is it hard to understand ?? I have already stated about the design will be the same between TFX with F 110 and TFX with local engine.


won't happen for at least 20 yrs. Its all easy to talk but Turkey has never made a single fighter jet. Making a jet engine isn't the same as making a small drone.


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## Indos

retaxis said:


> won't happen for at least 20 yrs. Its all easy to talk but Turkey has never made a single fighter jet. Making a jet engine isn't the same as making a small drone.



TEI is JV between Turkish company and American company (General Electric). There they have that "GE" component that make them maybe will have good chance to produce a good engine for fighter. I am not as optimistic as Turkish member who follow official time line at 2026-2028, but some day between 2035-2045 IMO is more realistic.


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## ozranger

retaxis said:


> won't happen for at least 20 yrs. Its all easy to talk but Turkey has never made a single fighter jet. Making a jet engine isn't the same as making a small drone.


They will need many more years of experiences on a cluster of wind tunnels with each built to serve a specific test purpose, proven mathematical models extracted from reliable wind tunnel test data, strong R&D capability of advanced metal/composite materials and, of course, a capable engine without the fear being sanction by the west. I have intentionally excluded those electronic stuff from consideration to make it look easier. Still all those included items are top secrets for all major world powers. 

Turkey alone is less experienced than India as India has partly proved itself by developing and flying Tejas, even though that design mostly came from the Frenches. 

Can Turkey use the Frenches? No. France and Turkey are sort of hostile to each other with regards to the Greeks. Turkey is neither a good friend to any other world powers which are good at developing aircrafts. So they have to do it all on their own. Good luck to them for that!

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## Trango Towers

tphuang said:


> do you have an idea how hard it is to "mimic" F-110 engine.
> 
> 
> India has also never had a problem with license producing fighter jet and engine. How are they doing on the self development front?
> I don't think people have quite an appreciation of how hard it is to mass produce something at F-110-GE-129 level.
> 
> 
> And why would China supply WS-15 to a project headed by Turkey?
> 
> 
> That's because China does not need Pakistan assistance in developing a 5th generation aircraft. When the time comes, FC-31 will be available for Pakistan. But keep in mind, FC-31/J-35 is still in prototype stage right now. There is not a lot of point in getting a 5th generation aircraft until it's in service somewhere with a reliable engine. Until then, it's all talk.
> 
> Look at Russia's experience with su-57, all talk. A country with decades of experiencing building modern fighter jet struggles to produce a few production worthy su-57. And now will probably have to delay the program further to provide funding for an Ukraine invasion.
> 
> I do expect Tempest and FCA to be developed, but they look closer to 5th generation aircraft right now rather than the 6th generation aircraft that they claim to be. And it will take a long time before they get put into production.


Everything in life is hard that's worth having. Hard is not impossible. China got out if trouble by copying stuff.

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## prokion

arjunk said:


> Endians will shit their pants when they see this
> View attachment 817793
> 
> 
> Azad Kashmir superpower by 2030


Don't want to offend you but India is way far ahead in the fifth generation fighter race simply beacuse India has access to private industries within our own country. Midhani started supplying titanium slabs for airframe construction of AMCA in 2021 and currently CDR is ongoing for the jet.









Midhani supplies titanium alloy for medium combat jets’ airframe | Hyderabad News - Times of India


As India works to further strengthen its armed forces by equipping them with the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Hyderabad-based defence PSU,




timesofindia.indiatimes.com





I am also skeptical on whether turkey will be able to develop its own jet engine. They have not developed even a single jet engine, not even for trainer aircrafts.

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## Trango Towers

prokion said:


> Don't want to offend you but India is way far ahead in the fifth generation fighter race simply beacuse India has access to private industries within our own country. Midhani started supplying titanium slabs for airframe construction of AMCA in 2021 and currently CDR is ongoing for the jet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midhani supplies titanium alloy for medium combat jets’ airframe | Hyderabad News - Times of India
> 
> 
> As India works to further strengthen its armed forces by equipping them with the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Hyderabad-based defence PSU,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> timesofindia.indiatimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am also skeptical on whether turkey will be able to develop its own jet engine. They have not developed even a single jet engine, not even for trainer aircrafts.


40 years + for tejas and rejected by iaf. Now you question Turkey

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## Irfan Baloch

Trango Towers said:


> Sadly you are a very negative person who thinks every aspects of PAC is out in the media. The design development and production aspects are all there.
> 
> Sadly every pakistani thinks that even a frying pan made anywhere other than Pakistan is the best and has such advanced tech that we could never make it.
> 
> Thank God reality is different from peoples perception


not just negative but also very disappointed and angry with the attitude of some officials I saw personally during my visit to a setup in Pindi.

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## tphuang

Indos said:


> Mimic in here means similar in diameter, weight, lenght, same like you Chinese do the same with Russian engine.
> 
> Is it hard to understand ?? I have already stated about the design will be the same between TFX with F 110 and TFX with local engine.





Trango Towers said:


> Everything in life is hard that's worth having. Hard is not impossible. China got out if trouble by copying stuff



How much resource do you think China pumped into WS-10 development? How many years do you think it took them to get to a point where they can reliably mass produce WS-10? You really want to compare China's industrial capability to Turkey? Good luck to Turkey trying to get as much funding for engine development as China did. Even with that much investment, China is a 3rd tier engine producer.

You look at Russia. AL-31 entered service in 1985 with su-27. We are in 2022 and they are still no where near finishing development on IZD-30.



Princeps Senatus said:


> Why not the J-20? I mean USA is selling F-35s to it's allies



I don't think J-20 should be off limits to Pakistan. But if Pakistan wants to get J-20 in x number of years time, they need to get rid of all the F-16s and American inspectors and everything else that might have a chance of passing classified J-20 data to Western countries.

But if Pakistan wants an aircraft that they can locally produce, I think FC-31 would be the only one that China gives permission to.

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## TOYGAN

We are not talking about 2022
We are talking about the TFX with indigenous turbofan Engine in 2035


Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world

in 2018 Turkey has started developing indigenous turbofan Engine to power the TFX in 2035.( we will see the first prototype of indigenous turbofan Engine in 2026 )


*HURJET*
HURJET is under production which is simiilar capability to JAS Gripen and HAL Tejas Fighter Jets








*TFX*
Turkey has started producing the TFX for roll out on 18 march 2023. and first flight on 18 march 2025













-- TAI's advanced carbon composites fuselage facility which was commissioned to produce fuselages for F-35 program

-- ASELSAN GaN based AESA Radar

-- ASELSAN avionics and equipment
Radar warning receiver (RWR)
Missile warning system (MWS)
Laser warning system (LWS)
Digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system
Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS)
Infrared Search and Track (IRST),
Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)


-- TUBITAK-SAGE / ROKETSAN air to air Missiles
BOZDOGAN WVR infrared homing
GOKDOGAN BVR active radar homing
GOKHAN ramjet engined BVR active radar homing

-- TRMOTOR turbofan Engine ( Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 Engines )

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Just a general comment.

Yes, the TR Motor engine will be Turkey's first fighter-grade turbofan engine, but I wouldn't say Turkey's totally inexperienced. They have been a key part of the GE F110's supply chain for several decades. As some members noted, Turkey has already been manufacturing crystal blades, for example. So, the country already accumulated some decades' worth of development experience across the engine stack. It isn't going into this with zero.

tbh I don't think Turkey has a technology or engineering challenge. It seems that Turkey already has the groundwork to excel. Rather, Turkey's main problem will be on the economic and fiscal fronts. China is a full-out economic superpower, so it could sustain the cost of engine development. Turkey doesn't have this flexibility, which is why it's seeking partners and consortiums to help with economies of scale and overhead sharing.

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## TOYGAN

Turkey needs more 10-13 years


People do not know about Turkey's real potential
TEI produced 300+ GE F110 Engines under license and production of 100+ various parts at TEI

as of 2022 , Turkey is one of a few countries in the world that has single cristal blade and blisk-spool manufacturing technologies for aviation engines

and Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world



official video about TEI. you can learn about Turkish engine technologies

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## Trango Towers

Irfan Baloch said:


> not just negative but also very disappointed and angry with the attitude of some officials I saw personally during my visit to a setup in Pindi.


Sadly I agree with some of your sentiments.



TOYGAN said:


> Turkey needs more 10-13 years
> 
> 
> People do not know about Turkey's real potential
> TEI produced 300+ GE F110 Engines under license and production of 100+ various parts at TEI
> 
> as of 2022 , Turkey is one of a few countries in the world that has single cristal blade and blisk-spool manufacturing tecchnologies for aviation engines
> 
> and Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world
> 
> 
> 
> official video about TEI. you can learn about Turkish engine technologies


Most people here only appreciate white man achievements

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trango Towers said:


> *Most people here only appreciate white man achievements*





TOYGAN said:


> Turkey needs more 10-13 years
> 
> 
> People do not know about Turkey's real potential
> TEI produced 300+ GE F110 Engines under license and production of 100+ various parts at TEI
> 
> as of 2022 , Turkey is one of a few countries in the world that has single cristal blade and blisk-spool manufacturing technologies for aviation engines
> 
> and Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world
> 
> 
> 
> official video about TEI. you can learn about Turkish engine technologies


Generally, we Pakistanis don't do our research before giving an opinion, nor do we think in terms of nuances.

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## Trango Towers

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Generally, we Pakistanis don't do our research before giving an opinion, nor do we think in terms of nuances.


There just seems to be repetition of no money no money no money

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## JamD

Falcon26 said:


> Unless Pakistan and Turkey can loop in Saudi Arabia or UAE to join the program, the engine component is doomed to fail. A program that includes either Saudi Arabia or the UAE will entice Rolls Royce to reconsider joining.
> 
> If that’s not an option, TFX should be designed with a Russian or Chinese engine in mind. I am very skeptical that Turkey will have a mature engine that can power a 5th generation fighter for at least a decade.
> 
> Project AZM was always a pipe dream. I never had high hopes in this mermaid project. It was Pakistan’s version of the LCA, but unlike India, Pakistan neither had the funds nor the time.


Qatar. They've been interested in the JF-17 Blk3 for some reason - I think it is to hedge their bets and not for any technology reasons. Also, Turkey and Qatar are pretty close. If you're looking for a gulf state to join the program, it'd be Qatar. Of course this is all wild speculation.





EternalMortal said:


> Some of you are jumping the gun but in reverse due to that SavunmaSanayiST tweet which said the *MERGER* of the MMU & AZM NGAF is not true.
> 
> However, the TAI CEO said they're collaborating on a "Turkish-Pakistani" fighter. Furthermore, if you watch the video the *Pakistani AVM/VP NSTP CONFIRMED* it right after so it wasn't just the CEO exaggerating & being "cute".
> 
> Merger & collaboration are mutually exclusive. I agree people jumped the gun on the merger part but the collaboration is definitely there.
> 
> @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RadarGudumluMuhimmat @kursed





RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> I did not say that they do not cooperate, I said that the planes (TFX-AZM) are not the same projects. The sources I gave are not a troll who said that CHINA - Pakistan and Turkey will develop UAVs until 1 month ago, but an SSB employee and one of the official accredited media organizations of the SSB. Also, in the continuation of the video, the Pakistani official confirms that there are already 2 different planes, what is this discussion about?


I will have to agree with @RadarGudumluMuhimmat 100% here. Dr. Riaz (Pakistani AVM) obviously wasn't going to say "no we're not working together" after Kotil called it Turkey-Pakistan fighter. And he very clearly mentions Azm FGFA as a separate thing. As I've been saying (and has been confimed) Dr. Kotil was simply playing to the gallery. He is a very good salesman and very capable of generating hype - which he obviously has succeeded in doing.

I've been saying for more than a year that Pakistan and Turkey are collaborating on a small level on the TFX and a possible joining of the program but nobody paid attention. I will advise you to see my first post on this thread where I have collected all of my previous posts if you want an accurate account of what's really going on (assuming that you are willing to believe what I have to say). I will repeat for everybody's convenience:
There is a SMALL technical Pakistani team in Ankara trying to analyze TFX to see if Pakistan will join the program. Key point: These people are only studying, not giving any input to the program. So IF a joining of this program is to happen, these are VERY EARLY DAYS, which in my opinion is something we've done too late but that's fine.

As soon as this interview came out and these stupid stupid "OSINT" accounts started rehashing the interview as inside news on twitter, everybody starts believeing the most ridiculous version of the facts as gospel. There is something seriously wrong with this twitter infested world. But that's another discussion.

@The Eagle I think you may have been premature in locking the Azm thread and making this the primary thread. I don't think we've had any official confirmation of TFX being the Turkey-Pakistan fighter. I really think Temil Kotil was playing to the gallery - this is the view widely shared by Turkish members as well. I am not saying there is no collaboration, but it is premature to say that TFX has become Turkey-Pakistan fighter.




mourning sage said:


> I wouldn't even factor in any other university other than NUST into the whole equation. That in itself is the crux of the problem. We don't have any private or public university capable of venturing into a bold R&D venture. While EME might have some semblance of infrastructure, military men bring with them a culture, a thought-process and a way of live that just snubs any R&D/innovation out of students and the civilian faculty.
> 
> I am really sorry to say this but every fauji-engineer working at PAC, EME, studying at post-grad level in SMME, or present in an administrative capacity in NUST (_I have come across_) has struck me as rather stupid. Like actually stupid. Engineering was not one of their forte. I've been extremely skeptical about this aviation city crap that airforce wants to start. It is most certainly an extra-ordinary vision but the ground realities are not changed simply by vision.
> 
> Also, for some reason, Pakistani institutions believe that Maths is an unnecessary skill set for an engineer. SNS used to supply the Math professors in entire NUST and you know who went to SNS? The ones who failed in getting into any other engineering discipline! Honestly, the only reason why I cant achieve more right now is because my math sucks, even though I am an engineer! and graduated in the top 10 of the class at SMME! I can say the same for every other graduate coming out of Pakistani schools. The fundamentals are weak in Pakistan and there is no realisation of this. Maths was just a personal example that is holding me back.


Being a soldier is the antithesis of being a researcher. I've said this multiple times. People often mistake this as me being "anti-fauji" but its about the mindset required of these roles.

Math: I agree. I graduated top of my class and when I came out of Pakistan I saw how poor my math skills were compared to people from India, Iran, and China. I had to work really hard to catch up and even now I have several holes.



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) we've been discussing the modalities of possible collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey for years on the Azm thread but one TV interview later the forum has woken up to that discussion and rehashing all of that discussion now lol. I suggest everyone who didn't read the Azm thread before the TV show to go read that thread and be amazed at how what you're about to say here was already discussed to death on that thread lol. Apologies for sounding like a bitter babu.

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## shayyman

It will be a 5+ gen fighter, so expect some technologies to exceed 5th gen. That should be the ambition anyway because you are looking at 2035 time frame, a time by which USA /China will be flying their 6th gen fighters in limited numbers already (Tejas will still be in development though).

Turkey will lead the project it seems, Pakistan will provide assistance to speed up the development and reduce costs, wherever it can. And frankly, even with both these countries combined, don't forget BAE is design consultant, and west will source some key technologies to Turkey. 

I think one of the purposes behind looping in Pakistan is to loop in China and get assistance in crucial areas because they will still find themselves in need of it (not everyone is an Indian genius who can develop a 5th gen jet with 6th gen tech completely on its own just within 3,4 years). 

Lastly Pakistan must make sure that its own aviation base is not effected by not being in driving seat. Technology transfer of next gen tech must flow in and along side studies should go on with ambition to become completely independent in fighter jet D&D by 2035/40.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Qatar. They've been interested in the JF-17 Blk3 for some reason - I think it is to hedge their bets and not for any technology reasons. Also, Turkey and Qatar are pretty close. If you're looking for a gulf state to join the program, it'd be Qatar. Of course this is all wild speculation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will have to agree with @RadarGudumluMuhimmat 100% here. Dr. Riaz (Pakistani AVM) obviously wasn't going to say "no we're not working together" after Kotil called it Turkey-Pakistan fighter. And he very clearly mentions Azm FGFA as a separate thing. As I've been saying (and has been confimed) Dr. Kotil was simply playing to the gallery. He is a very good salesman and very capable of generating hype - which he obviously has succeeded in doing.
> 
> I've been saying for more than a year that Pakistan and Turkey are collaborating on a small level on the TFX and a possible joining of the program but nobody paid attention. I will advise you to see my first post on this thread where I have collected all of my previous posts if you want an accurate account of what's really going on (assuming that you are willing to believe what I have to say). I will repeat for everybody's convenience:
> There is a SMALL technical Pakistani team in Ankara trying to analyze TFX to see if Pakistan will join the program. Key point: These people are only studying, not giving any input to the program. So IF a joining of this program is to happen, these are VERY EARLY DAYS, which in my opinion is something we've done too late but that's fine.
> 
> As soon as this interview came out and these stupid stupid "OSINT" accounts started rehashing the interview as inside news on twitter, everybody starts believeing the most ridiculous version of the facts as gospel. There is something seriously wrong with this twitter infested world. But that's another discussion.
> 
> @The Eagle I think you may have been premature in locking the Azm thread and making this the primary thread. I don't think we've had any official confirmation of TFX being the Turkey-Pakistan fighter. I really think Temil Kotil was playing to the gallery - this is the view widely shared by Turkish members as well. I am not saying there is no collaboration, but it is premature to say that TFX has become Turkey-Pakistan fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> Being a soldier is the antithesis of being a researcher. I've said this multiple times. People often mistake this as me being "anti-fauji" but its about the mindset required of these roles.
> 
> Math: I agree. I graduated top of my class and when I came out of Pakistan I saw how poor my math skills were compared to people from India, Iran, and China. I had to work really hard to catch up and even now I have several holes.
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) we've been discussing the modalities of possible collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey for years on the Azm thread but one TV interview later the forum has woken up to that discussion and rehashing all of that discussion now lol. I suggest everyone who didn't read the Azm thread before the TV show to go read that thread and be amazed at how what you're about to say here was already discussed to death on that thread lol. Apologies for sounding like a bitter babu.


'cause people don't read bro.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 'cause people don't read bro.


We should've had that discussion on Twitter in the form of tweets and it would've been accepted as gospel by now. Seriously.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> We should've had that discussion on Twitter in the form of tweets and it would've been accepted as gospel by now. Seriously.


Force OSINT Group (FOG)
Definitive OSINT Ultimate Breaker Team (DOUBT)

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## Basel

Trango Towers said:


> I think we need to forget India. With jf17 under the belt and now a solid 5th gen program. Indians are way behind.



There is a pattern PAF follow and as we have weak economy compared to India it will be stupid to introduce NGF prior to India.



eagleeye said:


> the aim to use an indigenous engine for the serial production after 2028. tr motor is is developing the engine they are confident of their success. they bought 5 F110 GE engines only for the prototypes.



US engine will not be available for Pakistan and even China is struggling to field potent engine for it's 5th gen bird and took current route of using stop gap engine so same should be taken by Pakistan too as making new engine is not easy.

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## Trango Towers

Basel said:


> There is a pattern PAF follow and as we have weak economy compared to India it will be stupid to introduce NGF prior to India.
> 
> 
> 
> US engine will not be available for Pakistan and even China is struggling to field potent engine for it's 5th gen bird and took current route of using stop gap engine so same should be taken by Pakistan too as making new engine is not easy.


Loooool ok 
Patterns can be overlooked when required. Following patterns means you become predictable


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## Basel

Trango Towers said:


> Loooool ok
> Patterns can be overlooked when required. Following patterns means you become predictable



When Pakistan induct system which bring new capabilities to the region then we usually don't announce it or its down played, and NGF can not be kept secret or its capabilities down played so India will go shopping for NGF before producing in house with good economy they will be able to bring balance in their favor.


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
Looks like there is a private company ( Scaled Aviation pvt Limited) manufacturing dual seat trainers and personal civilian light aircrafts under licence
It has nothing special but when i was reading about Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan Retd. (He is sitting chairman of Scaled Aviation pvt Limited and has remained Cheif Project Director of JF 17 project) ,i came to know that they are trying to indiginously develop a six seat civilian air craft. This is positive news and a step in right direction i think.

What you guys think,can they develop it?

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## JamD

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> View attachment 817959
> 
> @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Looks like there is a private company ( Scaled Aviation pvt Limited) manufacturing dual seat trainers and personal civilian light aircrafts under licence
> It has nothing special but when i was reading about Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan Retd. (He is sitting chairman of Scaled Aviation pvt Limited and has remained Cheif Project Director of JF 17 project) ,i came to know that they are trying to indiginously develop a six seat civilian air craft. This is positive news and a step in right direction i think.
> 
> What you guys think,can they develop it?


Lol no. They assemble imported kit aircraft. This is something people do in their backyards in the US. A friend of mine worked with them for a year with promise of full-time position. They got free work from him for a year. Then he left. It was probably my friend's fault for staying that long too but you get the feel for what this company is.

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## iLION12345_1

mourning sage said:


> I wouldn't even factor in any other university other than NUST into the whole equation. That in itself is the crux of the problem. We don't have any private or public university capable of venturing into a bold R&D venture. While EME might have some semblance of infrastructure, military men bring with them a culture, a thought-process and a way of live that just snubs any R&D/innovation out of students and the civilian faculty.
> 
> I am really sorry to say this but every fauji-engineer working at PAC, EME, studying at post-grad level in SMME, or present in an administrative capacity in NUST (_I have come across_) has struck me as rather stupid. Like actually stupid. Engineering was not one of their forte. I've been extremely skeptical about this aviation city crap that airforce wants to start. It is most certainly an extra-ordinary vision but the ground realities are not changed simply by vision.
> 
> Also, for some reason, Pakistani institutions believe that Maths is an unnecessary skill set for an engineer. SNS used to supply the Math professors in entire NUST and you know who went to SNS? The ones who failed in getting into any other engineering discipline! Honestly, the only reason why I cant achieve more right now is because my math sucks, even though I am an engineer! and graduated in the top 10 of the class at SMME! I can say the same for every other graduate coming out of Pakistani schools. The fundamentals are weak in Pakistan and there is no realisation of this. Maths was just a personal example that is holding me back.


Trust me, I get _*exactly*_ what you mean and I couldn’t have said it better. I don’t really blame army engineers for being how they are because they’re trained to be that way, they’re meant to be army officers with engineering knowledge and not engineers with officer training, if you get what I mean. They do what they’re supposed to do well, but we won’t get any research out of them, (or anyone else for that matter) not until we fundamentally change the entire system from the ground up.

At CEME almost all the research is being done by the non-army faculty (and there’s some very brilliant minds in there, as I’m sure there are in SMME, SEECS etc as well). 
From what I’ve noticed, the only time actual military guys do research and development work here is when the military actively needs something, it’s like a massive catalyst getting stuff done, however that’s a rare occurrence, unlike in some more developed nations where doing research is a full time job and continues 365 days a year, in Pakistan it’s a seasonal thing for when something is needed, hence funding is given, otherwise it’s always on hold.

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## KaiserX

Anyone who discounts Pakistans contribution and fails to understand how immensely Turkey gains from this is either a newb or a professional Indiot.

Pakistan designed, manufactered, and incrementally upgraded a 4.5th generation fighter from scratch since the last 2 decades. Whether help/input was taken from Northrop (US) or China (CAC), it does not matter. At the end of the day Pakistan has solid engineers/scientist in the aviation sector that have more experience than 95% of countries in the world. In this day and age, manpower/labour is the most important commodity even more than money. With such high inflation and shortage of workers even with massive funds many countries/companies simply cannot find workers. Pakistan does not have this issue due to the abundance of engineers.

Turkey has little options. Its relations with the US, Russia, and China are all at the lowest point in history. You be the judge. Pakistan will get a 5th generation fighter by 2030 with or without Turkey, but I doubt Turkey can without Pakistan.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

iLION12345_1 said:


> Trust me, I get _*exactly*_ what you mean and I couldn’t have said it better. I don’t really blame army engineers for being how they are because they’re trained to be that way, they’re meant to be army officers with engineering knowledge and not engineers with officer training, if you get what I mean. They do what they’re supposed to do well, but we won’t get any research out of them, (or anyone else for that matter) not until we fundamentally change the entire system from the ground up.
> 
> At CEME almost all the research is being done by the non-army faculty (and there’s some very brilliant minds in there, as I’m sure there are in SMME, SEECS etc as well).
> From what I’ve noticed, the only time actual military guys do research and development work here is when the military actively needs something, it’s like a massive catalyst getting stuff done, however that’s a rare occurrence, unlike in some more developed nations where doing research is a full time job and continues 365 days a year, in Pakistan it’s a seasonal thing for when something is needed, hence funding is given, otherwise it’s always on hold.


Any hope when this system will change or any signs of improvement???


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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> Only Hurdle for PAF are engines


In case of Pakistan American engine are out and option will be Chinese or Russian for PAC variant

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).


Or PAF can induct limited J31/J35 post 2025 till PAC variant of TFX materialized


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## Trango Towers

Basel said:


> When Pakistan induct system which bring new capabilities to the region then we usually don't announce it or its down played, and NGF can not be kept secret or its capabilities down played so India will go shopping for NGF before producing in house with good economy they will be able to bring balance in their favor.


My dear if you just are a reactive nation you will die. If you are proactive you will plan well ahead for the future. This is why developed nations are years ahead of the game


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## Basel

Trango Towers said:


> My dear if you just are a reactive nation you will die. If you are proactive you will plan well ahead for the future. This is why developed nations are years ahead of the game



I just posted the reality on ground and that have worked till now since 70 years, also if you want an active posture then please bring economic independence first.

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## The Eagle

JamD said:


> @The Eagle I think you may have been premature in locking the Azm thread and making this the primary thread. I don't think we've had any official confirmation of TFX being the Turkey-Pakistan fighter. I really think Temil Kotil was playing to the gallery - this is the view widely shared by Turkish members as well. I am not saying there is no collaboration, but it is premature to say that TFX has become Turkey-Pakistan fighter.


Dear,
AZM thread is locked temporarily and for totally different reasons. This topic here is from totally discussion point of view based on what's being said and we all are not claiming it to be an official news. Like you, me and everyone else, can discuss and analyze situation etc. In a few days or a week probably, you will see why a separate thread is created for this collaboration and how we are expanding AZM project. I have said it repeatedly that AZM is not abandoned nor terminated or anything in regard to call it dead. Wait for a while and you will see the reason as well. An idea is floated and team is discussing.

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## JamD

The Eagle said:


> AZM thread is locked temporarily and for totally different reasons. This topic here is from totally discussion point of view based on what's being said and we all are not claiming it to be an official news. Like you, me and everyone else, can discuss and analyze situation etc. In a few days or a week probably, you will see why a separate thread is created for this collaboration and how we are expanding AZM project. I have said it repeatedly that AZM is not abandoned nor terminated or anything in regard to call it dead. Wait for a while and you will see the reason as well. An idea is floated and team is discussing.


As long as it is temporary that's fine thanks.


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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 'cause people don't read bro.



Pros and cons of internet discussion having unreal profiles.


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## Trango Towers

Basel said:


> I just posted the reality on ground and that have worked till now since 70 years, also if you want an active posture then please bring economic independence first.


To date you are correct. That's what has been happening

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## The Eagle

JamD said:


> we've been discussing the modalities of possible collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey for years on the Azm thread but one TV interview later the forum has woken up to that discussion and rehashing all of that discussion now lol. I suggest everyone who didn't read the Azm thread before the TV show to go read that thread and be amazed at how what you're about to say here was already discussed to death on that thread lol.



Even ACM Sohail Aman hinted towards what's being said by TAI CEO but nobody paid much attention since nothing was told with confirmation. This is internet my friend. Everyone has the liberty to share opinion and freedom to believe it or not.

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## Ali_Baba

TOYGAN said:


> We are not talking about 2022
> We are talking about the TFX with indigenous turbofan Engine in 2035
> 
> 
> Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world
> 
> in 2018 Turkey has started developing indigenous turbofan Engine to power the TFX in 2035.( we will see the first prototype of indigenous turbofan Engine in 2026 )
> 
> 
> *HURJET*
> HURJET is under production which is simiilar capability to JAS Gripen and HAL Tejas Fighter Jets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *TFX*
> Turkey has started producing the TFX for roll out on 18 march 2023. and first flight on 18 march 2025
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- TAI's advanced carbon composites fuselage facility which was commissioned to produce fuselages for F-35 program
> 
> -- ASELSAN GaN based AESA Radar
> 
> -- ASELSAN avionics and equipment
> Radar warning receiver (RWR)
> Missile warning system (MWS)
> Laser warning system (LWS)
> Digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system
> Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
> Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS)
> Infrared Search and Track (IRST),
> Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)
> 
> 
> -- TUBITAK-SAGE / ROKETSAN air to air Missiles
> BOZDOGAN WVR infrared homing
> GOKDOGAN BVR active radar homing
> GOKHAN ramjet engined BVR active radar homing
> 
> -- TRMOTOR turbofan Engine ( Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 Engines )



One of the most difficult parts of building a fast military jet alongside the engine, is to build a quadruplex digital FBW for an unstable airframe, and one that Turkey will have had to have build from the ground up for both the Hurjet(where i assume it is a stable design ? ) and one for the TFX which will be an unstable design. I think BAe will have helped in this space alot as BAe is an expert in FBW's ..

The Hurjet is due its maiden flight in 2023 so that will form a good testing bed for the work being done on the TFX. It will be good to see Turkey "tick" that box next year for the FBW and once you have one, then you can spawn off custom variants for different platforms.

I do think that Turkey has been very smart and has acquired all of the technology pieces it needs to built a fighter jet, and the technical challenge remaining is not as much as some people are suggesting it is. BAe is helping Turkey and leveraging that experience for the Tempest programme alongside. Engine is an unknown as we have all said, but Turkey has enough knowledge to make it a problem it can resolve. The engine is the only piece of the puzzle left, a significant one but still the only major piece.

( .. and if the USAF wants to continue to have exercises with the PAF and keep that relationship alive in a post-F16 world - it too has to see TFX succeed as PAF is not buying another USA fighter jet platform, and i dont see PAF going for an EU origin plane from France - and there is a mild chance of Tempest if the Indians dont get there first ...).

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## Big_bud

Ali_Baba said:


> One of the most difficult parts of building a fast military jet alongside the engine, is to build a quadruplex digital FBW for an unstable airframe, and one that Turkey will have had to have build from the ground up for both the Hurjet(where i assume it is a stable design ? ) and one for the TFX which will be an unstable design. I think BAe will have helped in this space alot as BAe is an expert in FBW's ..
> 
> The Hurjet is due its maiden flight in 2023 so that will form a good testing bed for the work being done on the TFX. It will be good to see Turkey "tick" that box next year for the FBW and once you have one, then you can spawn off custom variants for different platforms.
> 
> I do think that Turkey has been very smart and has acquired all of the technology pieces it needs to built a fighter jet, and the technical challenge remaining is not as much as some people are suggesting it is. BAe is helping Turkey and leveraging that experience for the Tempest programme alongside. Engine is an unknown as we have all said, but Turkey has enough knowledge to make it a problem it can resolve. The engine is the only piece of the puzzle left, a significant one but still the only major piece.
> 
> ( .. and if the USAF wants to continue to have exercises with the PAF and keep that relationship alive in a post-F16 world - it too has to see TFX succeed as PAF is not buying another USA fighter jet platform, and i dont see PAF going for an EU origin plane from France - and there is a mild chance of Tempest if the Indians dont get there first ...).



It seems Turkey's main plan was to get a lot of key technologies from Europe, sign up various contracts & get experts on board. Rolls Royce already pulled out of the project. GE was not interesting in offering their engines. A collaboration for obtaining Russian engines was also revealed. 11 years for the project however it is still in phase 1, stage 1 preliminary design works. There has been a couple of MOUs signed, partnerships announced, a mock presented but so far we are not aware if there has been some real progress. And the problem is, with US pressure all those European companies can pull out anytime.

Pakistan should keep close partnership with the Chinese and not loose that in the process. While continue to work with Turkey, its a gamble but hopefully Pakistani aviation industry would also grow and learn in the process. Long road ahead, have to wait and watch!

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## dBSPL

You can support Pakistan not to take part in this project. If you ask my opinion, I'm closer to this group in principle, it's too late for some things now. Turkiye does not have the luxury of wasting time by entering into such a contract negotiation.

However, it is not really ethical behavior to spread false information to creating support this, or simply to write as if you know something about subjects you have never researched.

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## prokion

ozranger said:


> They will need many more years of experiences on a cluster of wind tunnels with each built to serve a specific test purpose, proven mathematical models extracted from reliable wind tunnel test data, strong R&D capability of advanced metal/composite materials and, of course, a capable engine without the fear being sanction by the west. I have intentionally excluded those electronic stuff from consideration to make it look easier. Still all those included items are top secrets for all major world powers.
> 
> Turkey alone is less experienced than India as India has partly proved itself by developing and flying Tejas, even though that design mostly came from the Frenches.
> 
> Can Turkey use the Frenches? No. France and Turkey are sort of hostile to each other with regards to the Greeks. Turkey is neither a good friend to any other world powers which are good at developing aircrafts. So they have to do it all on their own. Good luck to them for that!





Trango Towers said:


> 40 years + for tejas and rejected by iaf. Now you question Turkey


Rejected? which year are you living in?



TOYGAN said:


> We are not talking about 2022
> We are talking about the TFX with indigenous turbofan Engine in 2035
> 
> 
> Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world
> 
> in 2018 Turkey has started developing indigenous turbofan Engine to power the TFX in 2035.( we will see the first prototype of indigenous turbofan Engine in 2026 )
> 
> 
> *HURJET*
> HURJET is under production which is simiilar capability to JAS Gripen and HAL Tejas Fighter Jets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *TFX*
> Turkey has started producing the TFX for roll out on 18 march 2023. and first flight on 18 march 2025
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- TAI's advanced carbon composites fuselage facility which was commissioned to produce fuselages for F-35 program
> 
> -- ASELSAN GaN based AESA Radar
> 
> -- ASELSAN avionics and equipment
> Radar warning receiver (RWR)
> Missile warning system (MWS)
> Laser warning system (LWS)
> Digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system
> Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
> Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS)
> Infrared Search and Track (IRST),
> Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)
> 
> 
> -- TUBITAK-SAGE / ROKETSAN air to air Missiles
> BOZDOGAN WVR infrared homing
> GOKDOGAN BVR active radar homing
> GOKHAN ramjet engined BVR active radar homing
> 
> -- TRMOTOR turbofan Engine ( Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 Engines )


TAI hurjet is not similar to Tejas or jf-17. The latter are fighter jets while Hurjet is an advanced supesonic trainer jet.


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## TOYGAN

KaiserX said:


> Turkey has little options. Its relations with the US, Russia, and China are all at the lowest point in history. You be the judge. Pakistan will get a 5th generation fighter by 2030 with or without Turkey, but I doubt Turkey can without Pakistan.



Pakistan has no technology to give 5th gen Fighter and turbofan engine technologies to Turkey

dont worry , without Pakistan
Turkey will have its own 5th gen Fighter Jet with turbofan engine , Supersonic stealth unmanned Fighter Jet , heavy Attack Helicopter , Airborne stand off Jammer Aircraft , High altitude Air Defense System , Balistic Missile Defense System , Destroyer , AIP Submarine , Aircraft Carrier in 2030s

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## TOYGAN

prokion said:


> TAI hurjet is not similar to Tejas or jf-17. The latter are fighter jets while Hurjet is an advanced supesonic trainer jet.



I am not talking about JF-17 , but HAL Tejas

HURJET will have Fighter Jet variant equipped with AESA Radar , air to air missiles and air to ground missiles/guided bombs


*HURJET*
Lenght : 13 m
Max speed : mach 1,4
Range : 2.220 km
G limits : +8/-3
Engine : General Electric F404-GE-102

*TEJAS*
Lenght : 13,2 m
Max speed : mach 1,6
Range : 1.850 km
G limits : +8/-3.5
Engine : General Electric F404-GE-IN20

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## SD 10

TOYGAN said:


> Pakistan has no technology to give 5th gen Fighter and turbofan engine technologies to Turkey
> 
> dont worry , without Pakistan
> Turkey will have its own 5th gen Fighter Jet with turbofan engine , Supersonic stealth unmanned Fighter Jet , heavy Attack Helicopter , Airborne stand off Jammer Aircraft , High altitude Air Defense System , Balistic Missile Defense System , Destroyer , AIP Submarine , Aircraft Carrier in 2030s


we dont give a damn... Good luck!


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## GiantPanda

China is finally _officially_ pushing the FC-31 for export. And a medium engine line (probably WS-13E) was completed for mass production last year. 

The PLAAF/PLANAF don't even use a medium engine -- though that would change in the future with J-35. But that class of engine is what the TFX and AZM (and AMCA and KFX for that matter) were designed around.









China establishes office to promote exports of the FC-31 stealth fighter - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn













China completes construction of medium-thrust aeroengine production line - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn





China is setting themselves up for a partnership in the stealth fighter space.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GiantPanda said:


> China is finally _officially_ pushing the FC-31 for export. And a medium engine line (probably WS-13E) was completed for mass production last year.
> 
> The PLAAF/PLANAF don't even use a medium engine -- though that would change in the future with J-35. But that class of engine is what the TFX and AZM (and AMCA and KFX for that matter) were designed around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China establishes office to promote exports of the FC-31 stealth fighter - Global Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaltimes.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China completes construction of medium-thrust aeroengine production line - Global Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaltimes.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China is setting themselves up for a partnership in the stealth fighter space.


@tphuang Does this mean there's no "export J-35" but simply J-35 and FC-31?

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## Trango Towers

TOYGAN said:


> Pakistan has no technology to give 5th gen Fighter and turbofan engine technologies to Turkey
> 
> dont worry , without Pakistan
> Turkey will have its own 5th gen Fighter Jet with turbofan engine , Supersonic stealth unmanned Fighter Jet , heavy Attack Helicopter , Airborne stand off Jammer Aircraft , High altitude Air Defense System , Balistic Missile Defense System , Destroyer , AIP Submarine , Aircraft Carrier in 2030s


Sounds like a frustrated Indian poster pretending to be Turkish

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## PakShaheen79

TOYGAN said:


> Pakistan has no technology to give 5th gen Fighter and turbofan engine technologies to Turkey
> 
> dont worry , without Pakistan
> Turkey will have its own 5th gen Fighter Jet with turbofan engine , Supersonic stealth unmanned Fighter Jet , heavy Attack Helicopter , Airborne stand off Jammer Aircraft , High altitude Air Defense System , Balistic Missile Defense System , Destroyer , AIP Submarine , Aircraft Carrier in 2030s


Yes, Turkey can build all of those without Pakistan and, I am saying this seriously. But if you listen to the words of TAI's chief there is a big elephant in the room which can't be ignored and Mr. Kotil talked about it i.e. "I don't have enough engineer in Turkey". This is what Pakistan brings to the table and that's why all this collaboration is done at academia level (With NUST not with PAC). Next, If TAI's chief is saying that they are brining some operations to Pakistan, this is no small statement by any mean. I am not sure what exactly those operations are, but we can deduce from circumstantial evidences these will be related to airframe manufacturing. When we talk about it many people think it's because of Thunder and experience gained from that project but let me tell you the experience in this field transcends Thunder. PAC has stunned world's best in the business with its airframe manufacturing prowess when it brought back to life these planes from dead by repairing their framework. SAAB had written off these Erieye aircraft and Lockheed Martin did the same in case of that PAF's F-16B in the pic ... then PAC showed them what happen when you have right commitment and determined leadership to stand behind your efforts.








Then there are legends known as Mirages IIIs/Vs ... more than 50 years old aircraft and still able to deliver. 2019 Op Swift Retort was mainly a strike mission carried out by PAF's mirages being maintained by PAC.



OEM specifications were that these aircraft will have 2 service life overhauls and PAC has already put these machines 4 times through its rigs ... I don't want to go specifications enhancement done by PAC/PAF on these as that's not the discussion here. When PAC/PAF were doing all this, the world including TAI was watching and taking note!
Now, you will understand why TAI chief is so keen to bring the project to Pakistani young engineers  They know about the potential, rest can be achieved by cooperation and guiding these potential aviation experts of future for the benefits of both the nations.

Now, coming back to the topic at hand, Pakistan's cooperation with TAI on TFX is not going to be a platform level exercise rather cooperation is on sub-system level where TAI will get cheap but very capable minds and PAC will get fresh, advanced trained human resource in house with lots of opportunities to expand existing knowledge base in the country something many countries want but simply can't due to multiple reasons ranging from political to financial.

As far as Merging of TFX- and AZM is concerned. This is NOT POSSIBLE to do for PAF for very very obvious reason.

Let me try to explain that to you and others who think on the similar lines....

TFX development cycle is stretched to 2040 if everything in between then and now stay on schedule. But we know delays are inevitable in such complex projects. So we are talking about 2045-50 timelines for TFX flying in numbers and exported to PAF. Now, PAF's time of induction of 5th Gen fighter is not dependent on the completion of TFX or AZM. The most critical variable is when IAF will decide to induct its 5GF. PAF is following Minimum Credible Deterrence (State level military doctrine implemented across all 3 forces). You saw how quickly the operational gap created by IAF by acquiring Rafale was plugged by induction of J-10Cs. The same is going to happen with 5GF as it happened in case of 4.5GF! So, PAF has time to develop AZM while procuring off the shelf 5GF from China to restore the balance of power in the region to ensure strategic stability. India since 1971, has introduced instability in stability-Instability paradigm in the region around 7 or 8 times, and Pakistan restored stability in the paradigm every time to ensure deterrence stay alive. (Details are not relevant to the discussion at hand but if anyone interested can inbox me).

Pakistan will continue to cooperate with Turkey on TFX while expertise got will go to Azm as well because like I said (and TAI team also explained in that interview) that NUST engineers will be solving problems by breaking them into smaller challenges. Obviously we are talking about sub-system level R&D. Pakistan, for its own need, will keep Chinese channel open. This is our strategic constraint like I explained above. So, If Turkey can develop everything on its own, we will be more than glad, but if our brother has asked us for cooperation, this is also an honor for us as we consider this gesture as recognition to our talent. This changes nothing for PAF's future plans, AZM or anything!

Why NUST?

Many members have spoken on this as well. To me, it's related to the fact that NUST is only place in Pakistan with supercomputer installed, and it means this is a goto place for every organization in the country who has some sort of simulation, modeling and high fidelity analysis task at hand and require results with high degree of accuracy. This will also clear what Dr. Rizwan meant when he said NUST will be providing same services to TAI as it did for PAF's AZM! But then again it's my own understanding only.

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## GiantPanda

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @tphuang Does this mean there's no "export J-35" but simply J-35 and FC-31?



China has clearly stated FC-31 is for export in this case not J-35. J-35 would be like J-20 where export is not possible since it is chosen as PLAN's next carrier fighter.

Maybe the differences might not be too large but we wouldn't know. It could be different radar sets or engines -- for example, WS-19 would go to J-35 first when it comes out.

But the export piece for FC-31 might mean exporting assembly too. This was done with K-8 and FC-1/JF-17.

Pakistan having experience with this might rope in China for TFX with FC-31 parts and WS-13 engines with assembly in Pakistan for its share of the production.

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## tphuang

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @tphuang Does this mean there's no "export J-35" but simply J-35 and FC-31?


I don't think we know the exact designations yet. It's also not important to know that.

We have a naval 5th gen aircraft in development and testing. There will be a land based one too. The two will be very similar (like f35a vs f35c). The export version will be f35a with possible changes just to client requirements. I wouldn't get too hang up on export version since that has a negative connotation. I think it will be more like j10c. Pakistan will have some different requirements than pla so things won't be exactly the same.

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## TOPGUN

I think PAF and TAF know better then us all here so why the anger and fights here, we are brothers in all ways let good times roll and come rather then fight with each other because thats what our enemies want so stop the BS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## SD 10

hopefully it wont be another T129 saga!!!!!!!! but we didn`t think this through, anyways i hope i am wrong!


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## TOYGAN

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yes, Turkey can build all of those without Pakistan and, I am saying this seriously. But if you listen to the words of TAI's chief there is a big elephant in the room which can't be ignored and Mr. Kotil talked about it i.e. "I don't have enough engineer in Turkey". This is what Pakistan brings to the table and that's why all this collaboration is done at academia level (With NUST not with PAC).



TAI has already Pakistani engineers which were educated in the UK and BAE Systems helps TAI to find engineers. also Turks living in Germany and Europe are real engineer potential for the TFX program

now TAI has around 5.000 engineers and need more 5.000 engineers. TAI recruits 1,000 engineers per year


Maybe Turkey approaching China via Pakistan. because China has been Pakistan's main strategic benefactor for decades helping Pakistan to build military projects and China already has two 5th gen Fighter Jet projects. China can help Pakistan-Turkey to develop 5th gen Fighter jet and other sophisticated military projects






PakShaheen79 said:


> Now, coming back to the topic at hand, Pakistan's cooperation with TAI on TFX is not going to be a platform level exercise rather cooperation is on sub-system level where TAI will get cheap but very capable minds and PAC will get fresh, advanced trained human resource in house with lots of opportunities to expand existing knowledge base in the country something many countries want but simply can't due to multiple reasons ranging from political to financial.




TAI wants to make the TFX as multi-national project like F-35 program .
TAI considered Pakistan,Malaysia,Azerbaijan.Bangladesh,Kazakhstan,Qatar as potential partners or buyers of the TFX

Turkey has TFX and Pakistan has AZM projects .Turkey sees Pakistan as brother country , strategic ally and potential partner .Turkey has invited Pakistan to participate in the development of the TFX program . Turkey invited Malaysia to join in co-development of the TF-X. Pakistan has Fighter Jet experience and Malaysia has industrial capabilities to produce composite material for the skin of the TFX





PakShaheen79 said:


> TFX development cycle is stretched to 2040 if everything in between then and now stay on schedule. But we know delays are inevitable in such complex projects. So we are talking about 2045-50 timelines for TFX flying in numbers and exported to PAF. Now, PAF's time of induction of 5th Gen fighter is not dependent on the completion of TFX or AZM.



Pakistan has plan to own its own 5th gen Fighter in 2045-50
but Turkey has its own agenda . TFX roll out in 2023 , firts flight in 2025 , delivery to TURAF in 2029 and real 5th gen combat capability in 2035

until 2035 , Turkey plan to develop turbofan engine for the TFX

Pakistan's economic and technological limitations, an indigenous project AZM of this magnitude is unlikely to see the light of day. Hence, the offer of cooperation from Turkey may turn out to be appealing to Pakistan


not only Fighter Jet , Turkey offers Pakistan to develop long range high altitude Air Defense System ... also Warships, Helicopters and UCAVs

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## Salza

After Russian attack on Ukraine, I am expecting Turkey's importance to grow in the region and US may quickly sort out their issues with them. This may result in rejoining F35 program for Turkey thus helping TAI TFX to grow further.

NATO is being ridiculed left to right like never before. They will need Turkey for sure if UKraine conflict gets longer but to get Turks active support, something has to be offered on the table as well that is F35.

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## That Guy

Salza said:


> After Russian attack on Ukraine, I am expecting Turkey's importance to grow in the region and US may quickly sort out their issues with them. This may result in rejoining F35 program for Turkey thus helping TAI TFX to grow further.
> 
> NATO is being ridiculed left to right like never before. They will need Turkey for sure if UKraine conflict gets longer but to get Turks active support, something has to be offered on the table as well that is F35.


I have no doubt that the whole s-400/f-35 issue is now being discussed by both sides on an official level.

I wouldn't be surprised if US scientists and engineers end up getting an up close look at the s-400 system.

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## Iron Shrappenel

That Guy said:


> I have no doubt that the whole s-400/f-35 issue is now being discussed by both sides on an official level.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if US scientists and engineers end up getting an up close look at the s-400 system.


Israel used F-35s against Syria in the presence of S-400s.... Do you think that S-400s capability in shooting and tracking down 5th gens is questionable now ?


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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> Only Hurdle for PAF are engines


Another reason why Pakistan Acquiring the J-10 was necessary. To test out Chinese engines and determine if they could be a possible source for an engine.

But even if not, I think the Turks make F110 engines under license. So they are going to use that until they have access (domestically or imported) to a more powerful engine

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## That Guy

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Israel used F-35s against Syria in the presence of S-400s.... Do you think that S-400s capability in shooting and tracking down 5th gens is questionable now ?


It was always unclear how effective the s-400 would be against a 5th gen. What we do know is that Russian in-development s-500 system does have some sort of anti-stealth capability, or at least that's what the Russians claim.

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## Trango Towers

Salza said:


> After Russian attack on Ukraine, I am expecting Turkey's importance to grow in the region and US may quickly sort out their issues with them. This may result in rejoining F35 program for Turkey thus helping TAI TFX to grow further.
> 
> NATO is being ridiculed left to right like never before. They will need Turkey for sure if UKraine conflict gets longer but to get Turks active support, something has to be offered on the table as well that is F35.


The strategic importance of Turkey cannot be ignored especially now due to this war

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## PakShaheen79

TOYGAN said:


> Pakistan has plan to own its own 5th gen Fighter in 2045-50
> but Turkey has its own agenda . TFX roll out in 2023 , firts flight in 2025 , delivery to TURAF in 2029 and real 5th gen combat capability in 2035
> 
> until 2035 , Turkey plan to develop turbofan engine for the TFX
> 
> Pakistan's economic and technological limitations, an indigenous project AZM of this magnitude is unlikely to see the light of day. Hence, the offer of cooperation from Turkey may turn out to be appealing to Pakistan
> 
> 
> not only Fighter Jet , Turkey offers Pakistan to develop long range high altitude Air Defense System ... also Warships, Helicopters and UCAVs



Below is slide about TFX timeline






FOC and Final serial production will take in Phase III ... 2040! 2026 is date for first flight. 14 years between then and Final serial production is v reasonable. All major projects in this category followed the same timeline.

Source: 
Türk Hava Kuvvetleri’nin MMU TF-X Sunumu ve Öne Çıkanlar​https://www.savunmasanayist.com/uluslararasi-anadolu-kartali-2021-egitimi/

Like i explained earlier, PAF is in no hurry. Only compulsion will be if IAF introduces some 5th generation fighter. In that eventuality, Chinese FC-31 option is always there with PAF specifications to counter that.

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## V. Makarov

We should send the "Project AZM thread" on PDF to the Turks so that they can prepare themselves for the cringe we are going to post in the coming years.





sarcasm

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## TOYGAN

PakShaheen79 said:


> FOC and Final serial production will take in Phase III ... 2040! 2026 is date for first flight. 14 years between then and Final serial production is v reasonable. All major projects in this category followed the same timeline.




TAI's new plan as of 2022

18 march 2023 roll out
18 march 2025 first flight

in 2029 , delivery of the first TFX to TURAF ... ( TFX will have block0 , block1 , etc )

and until 2040 TAI will produce all TFXs for the Turkish Airforce
( to produce 24 TFX per year )





PakShaheen79 said:


> Like i explained earlier, PAF is in no hurry. Only compulsion will be if IAF introduces some 5th generation fighter. In that eventuality, Chinese FC-31 option is always there with PAF specifications to counter that.




Turkey and the USA renewed negotiations regarding the F-35s.
6 F-35s made for Turkey stand in a hangar. We are discussing what will happen to them.

the discussions on both the F-16 and the F-35 continue. Turkey requested 40 new F-16 Block 70 fighter jets and 80 conversion kits to modernize its F-16s to block70 standard



*-- *Turkey develops MIUS unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to possessing the same advanced characteristics as 5th-generation stealth Fighters ... ( first flight in 2023 )

( MIUS will be able to perform air to air combat , strategic attack missions,
suppression/destruction of air defense systems and missile attack missions )

Endurance : 5 Hours
Service ceiling : 40,000 ft
Cruise speed : supersonic 1,4 mach
Payload : 1.5 Tons

-- AESA radar and next-generation avionics, sensor fusion
-- Internal weapon stations
-- Stealth flight capability
-- The ability to hide from Radars
-- Aggressive maneuverability with delta canard and vertical stabilizers
-- Smart fleet autonomy equipped with artificial intelligence
-- Turbofan engine






another Turkish project for PAF to counter IAF
MIUS is being designed in a stealth form that the missile slots are taken in the fuselage, as in the 5th generation Fighter Jets , equipped with powerful AESA Radar and BVR missiles to change the concept of air warfare

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## Trango Towers

TOYGAN said:


> TAI's new plan as of 2022
> 
> 18 march 2023 roll out
> 18 march 2025 first flight
> 
> in 2029 , delivery of the first TFX to TURAF ... ( TFX will have block0 , block1 , etc )
> 
> and until 2040 TAI will produce all TFXs for the Turkish Airforce
> ( to produce 24 TFX per year )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *-- *TURAF has already 230+ F-16s
> 
> *--* also Turkey and the USA renewed negotiations regarding the F-35s.
> 6 F-35s made for Turkey stand in a hangar. We are discussing what will happen to them.
> 
> the discussions on both the F-16 and the F-35 continue. Turkey requested 40 new F-16 Block 70 fighter jets and 80 conversion kits to modernize its F-16s to block70 standard
> 
> *-- *Turkey develops MIUS unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to possessing the same advanced characteristics as 5th-generation stealth Fighters .... .( first flight in 2023 )
> 
> ( MIUS will be able to perform air to air combat , strategic attack missions,
> suppression/destruction of air defense systems and missile attack missions )
> 
> when MIUS is on the market The world will show interest in Turkey's MIUS unmanned stealth Fighter Jet , not in the F-35 or FC-31


Considering what's happening in Ukraine. Turkey is extremely important and the west will buckle. Ergodic knows this and will get whatever he wants. Both f35 and f16 will come as well as lifting of any sanctions of Turkish companies. 
They plot and Allah plots. Muslim must be patient and have faith

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## CrazyZ

Trango Towers said:


> Considering what's happening in Ukraine. Turkey is extremely important and the west will buckle. Ergodic knows this and will get whatever he wants. Both f35 and f16 will come as well as lifting of any sanctions of Turkish companies.
> They plot and Allah plots. Muslim must be patient and have faith


Turkey is now critical to EU/NATO. Not only for its hard power but its ability to cut off the Black sea and its location as a corridor for MENA gas pipelines to EU. Lets see how this impacts TFX.

If Turkey give up onS400 Americans would resend CAATSA sanctions in a heartbeat, IMO. Turkey is more important to the western bloc than India is right now.

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## Trango Towers

CrazyZ said:


> Turkey is now critical to EU/NATO. Not only for its hard power but its ability to cut off the Black sea and its location as a corridor for MENA gas pipelines to EU. Lets see how this impacts TFX.


It cannot cut off the black sea. There are treaties in place.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Salza said:


> After Russian attack on Ukraine, I am expecting Turkey's importance to grow in the region and US may quickly sort out their issues with them. This may result in rejoining F35 program for Turkey thus helping TAI TFX to grow further.
> 
> NATO is being ridiculed left to right like never before. They will need Turkey for sure if UKraine conflict gets longer but to get Turks active support, something has to be offered on the table as well that is F35.


As for the Turkish strategists, it's the worst outcome!!! Anyway, they're 100% confident and ready to go without the USA....



Trango Towers said:


> It cannot cut off the black sea. There are treaties in place.


Even the NATO meeting hasn't brought it to the table...

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## dBSPL

CrazyZ said:


> If Turkey give up onS400 Americans would resend CAATSA sanctions in a heartbeat, IMO. Turkey is more important to the western bloc than India is right now.


Bro, Do you really believe that this issue is only about the S-400? The S-400 is just an excuse to put Turkey under pressure and an effort to legitimize the US justifications against Turkey. The real problem is that we resist not accepting the design that is being tried to be established in our south. Which country carried out the lobbying activities of this bill (included the exclusion of Turkey from the JSF), how it justified its request, it is necessary to evaluate such matters also. Lets say Turkey get rid off the S-400... Any guarantee for other concessions demands will not follow tomorrow? For this reason, Turkey has already taken the risk of not acquiring the F-35.

Meanwhile, the strategic value of the S-400 in terms of Turkish air defense system design will start weaken after 2025-26 (SIPER, and the national early warning system). So why are these needs' prioritizing changed? If the air defense system works are more advanced, couldn't Turkey keep its long-term air defense needs on hold?

Turkey need time 5-8 years for long-range air defense capacity(yes, something was not replaced, a nonexistent system was acquired.) and has a gap filler need of approximately 15 years for new generation main combat jets. When viewed from within this risk range; Turkey has a large fighter jet fleet, but more importantly, a rapidly expanding domestic ammunition/missile arsenal.

But the need for the A/D part was more urgent. Why was it urgent? Because this long-range air defense tender, which we call T-LORAMIDS, has a history of almost 20 years. The USA, for some reason, tried to delay Turkey's access to these systems, directly or indirectly. In the end, we started to develop our own system starting from the lowest layer, and during this time, the S-400 system has been an assurance in the hands of the Turkish state in case of any western bloc relationship totally collapse. It is worth remembering that this purchase came after an attempt at an Atlanticist-backed uprising in the south of Turkey, a pro-NATO military coup attempt in Turkey, and an attempt to push TR into a war in Syria.

Another issue regarding F35 combat jet planning is how functional this aircraft will be for the air force of a country whose alliance relations with the United States are at risk of being completely disrupted. In other words, when we look at the developing geopolitical and recent cyclical developments, Turkey's move away from the F-35 supply is also could be Turkey's choice in a way. Or at the very least, it may indicate that the air force will no longer be entirely dependent on (and control) US logistics. Even if Turkey returns to the F-35 program, previous plans such as 100+16 are now completely unrealistic. I do not want to spread the subject too much. Because it is too complex and has many sub-items.

TLDR, the MMU represents a transformation and the goal of full independence for the Turkish air force. We are not far from there. Therefore, we can pass the current risk range without the F-35. It is better in any case than stepping back from our bigger interests and can be ignored.

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## HRK

CrazyZ said:


> Turkey is now critical to EU/NATO. Not only for its hard power but its ability to cut off the Black sea and its location as a corridor for MENA gas pipelines to EU. Lets see how this impacts TFX.
> 
> If Turkey give up onS400 Americans would resend CAATSA sanctions in a heartbeat, IMO. Turkey is more important to the western bloc than India is right now.


After Ukraine crisis actually Turkey has become more vulnerable [NOTE: I know this opinion appear foolish, but it is not]

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## python-000

I personally want to see J-35 in PAF colors...

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## Materialistic

CrazyZ said:


> Turkey is now critical to EU/NATO. Not only for its hard power but its ability to cut off the Black sea and its location as a corridor for MENA gas pipelines to EU. Lets see how this impacts TFX.
> 
> If Turkey give up onS400 Americans would resend CAATSA sanctions in a heartbeat, IMO. Turkey is more important to the western bloc than India is right now.



The likelyhood of Turkey returning to previous terms with US/NATO and F35 acquisition is very slim. It could be some other arrangement with benefits for Turkey. 

Russia is not a disposable power which Turkey would discount for a few jets. The same jets and the same US which Turkey let go off for its freedom to make its own choices. Such a move would make Turkey as an untrustworthy partner for other major powers plus countries for decades to come

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## Materialistic

dBSPL said:


> Bro, Do you really believe that this issue is only about the S-400? The S-400 is just an excuse to put Turkey under pressure and an effort to legitimize the US justifications against Turkey. The real problem is that we resist not accepting the design that is being tried to be established in our south. Which country carried out the lobbying activities of this bill (included the exclusion of Turkey from the JSF), how it justified its request, it is necessary to evaluate such matters also. Lets say Turkey get rid off the S-400... Any guarantee for other concessions demands will not follow tomorrow? For this reason, Turkey has already taken the risk of not acquiring the F-35.
> 
> Meanwhile, the strategic value of the S-400 in terms of Turkish air defense system design will start weaken after 2025-26 (SIPER, and the national early warning system). So why are these needs' prioritizing changed? If the air defense system works are more advanced, couldn't Turkey keep its long-term air defense needs on hold?
> 
> Turkey need time 5-8 years for long-range air defense capacity(yes, something was not replaced, a nonexistent system was acquired.) and has a gap filler need of approximately 15 years for new generation main combat jets. When viewed from within this risk range; Turkey has a large fighter jet fleet, but more importantly, a rapidly expanding domestic ammunition/missile arsenal.
> 
> But the need for the A/D part was more urgent. Why was it urgent? Because this long-range air defense tender, which we call T-LORAMIDS, has a history of almost 20 years. The USA, for some reason, tried to delay Turkey's access to these systems, directly or indirectly. In the end, we started to develop our own system starting from the lowest layer, and during this time, the S-400 system has been an assurance in the hands of the Turkish state in case of any western bloc relationship totally collapse. It is worth remembering that this purchase came after an attempt at an Atlanticist-backed uprising in the south of Turkey, a pro-NATO military coup attempt in Turkey, and an attempt to push TR into a war in Syria.
> 
> Another issue regarding F35 combat jet planning is how functional this aircraft will be for the air force of a country whose alliance relations with the United States are at risk of being completely disrupted. In other words, when we look at the developing geopolitical and recent cyclical developments, Turkey's move away from the F-35 supply is also could be Turkey's choice in a way. Or at the very least, it may indicate that the air force will no longer be entirely dependent on (and control) US logistics. Even if Turkey returns to the F-35 program, previous plans such as 100+16 are now completely unrealistic. I do not want to spread the subject too much. Because it is too complex and has many sub-items.
> 
> TLDR, the MMU represents a transformation and the goal of full independence for the Turkish air force. We are not far from there. Therefore, we can pass the current risk range without the F-35. It is better in any case than stepping back from our bigger interests and can be ignored.


I think Turkey got lucky. While losing F35s protecting it's larger interests. Turkey saved itself from other chronic issues of F35 program/costs and the recent limitations discovered on the jet.. But the benefit will only be realized if Turkey can fill the missing capability that F35 could provide. A case of opportunity cost.

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## UK_PAKISTANI

HRK said:


> After Ukraine crisis actually Turkey has become more vulnerable [NOTE: I know this opinion appear foolish, but it is not]


In any NATO Russia war, Turkey will be crucial. When Turkey shot down a Russian fighter plane,
some important figures from NATO countries openly said they would not go to war for Turkey because of xy and z ( Muslims),
This must have had an impact on the thinking in Ankara.
If they refuse to get involved in any NATO Russia conflict, NATO will be in trouble.
Large parts of Europe will properly be occupied by Russia for some time at least.
NATO could potentiality crumble if there is no massive US intervention quickly.

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## PakAlp

What PDF people are saying is Pakistan has 3 choices. The TFX, AZM and J31/J35. I think AZM will be the Chinese j31/j35. Yes China is building a jet for carrier but J20 is not for export so they need a 5th generation which will be available for export like the J10s. They will definitely built a 5th generation planes for export to their allies.

Pakistan will go for 2 5th generation fighter Jets. The TFX for Air superiority and with western inspired Turkish systems and the 2nd will be AZM which will be J31/J35 multirole, a Pakistani spec Chinese 5th generation jet. Pakistan will wait till India inducts a 5th generation jet and then within a few years will induct J31/J35. Between 2030 till 2035 unless India delays the induction till 2040s (which I doubt)

Tfx will replace the western f16s and AzM/J35 will replace the Jf17s/J10s. The TFX with engine issues may be delayed till after 2035 but Pakistan should be able to install a Chinese 5th generation jet engine on the plane. I dont see an issue as Pakistan and China are allies (the engine can be installed in Pakistan). If TFX is inducted around 2045 then this will be late, all European powers will induct 5th generation by 2030s and it would be disaster for Turkey to wait another 15 years before induction, by that time Europeans will be inducting 6th generation planes. 2035 is the latest TFX/J31 should be ready by.


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## Indos

PakAlp said:


> What PDF people are saying is Pakistan has 3 choices. The TFX, AZM and J31/J35. I think AZM will be the Chinese j31/j35. Yes China is building a jet for carrier but J20 is not for export so they need a 5th generation which will be available for export like the J10s. They will definitely built a 5th generation planes for export to their allies.
> 
> Pakistan will go for 2 5th generation fighter Jets. The TFX for Air superiority and with western inspired Turkish systems and the 2nd will be AZM which will be J31/J35 multirole, a Pakistani spec Chinese 5th generation jet. Pakistan will wait till India inducts a 5th generation jet and then within a few years will induct J31/J35. Between 2030 till 2035 unless India delays the induction till 2040s (which I doubt)
> 
> Tfx will replace the western f16s and AzM/J35 will replace the Jf17s/J10s. The TFX with engine issues may be delayed till after 2035 but Pakistan should be able to install a Chinese 5th generation jet engine on the plane. I dont see an issue as Pakistan and China are allies (the engine can be installed in Pakistan). If TFX is inducted around 2045 then this will be late, all European powers will induct 5th generation by 2030s and it would be disaster for Turkey to wait another 15 years before induction, by that time Europeans will be inducting 6th generation planes. 2035 is the latest TFX/J31 should be ready by.



You cannot just install a different engine as simple as like that, redesign ( basic design, detail design) and then followed up with testing which need a lot of money, capable human power, and considerable time. 

We can see this on India Tejas Mk2 development despite F 404 and F 414 is basically the same engine but with different thrust. Let alone F 110 GE engine with China engines

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## Reichmarshal

dBSPL said:


> Bro, Do you really believe that this issue is only about the S-400? The S-400 is just an excuse to put Turkey under pressure and an effort to legitimize the US justifications against Turkey. The real problem is that we resist not accepting the design that is being tried to be established in our south. Which country carried out the lobbying activities of this bill (included the exclusion of Turkey from the JSF), how it justified its request, it is necessary to evaluate such matters also. Lets say Turkey get rid off the S-400... Any guarantee for other concessions demands will not follow tomorrow? For this reason, Turkey has already taken the risk of not acquiring the F-35.
> 
> Meanwhile, the strategic value of the S-400 in terms of Turkish air defense system design will start weaken after 2025-26 (SIPER, and the national early warning system). So why are these needs' prioritizing changed? If the air defense system works are more advanced, couldn't Turkey keep its long-term air defense needs on hold?
> 
> Turkey need time 5-8 years for long-range air defense capacity(yes, something was not replaced, a nonexistent system was acquired.) and has a gap filler need of approximately 15 years for new generation main combat jets. When viewed from within this risk range; Turkey has a large fighter jet fleet, but more importantly, a rapidly expanding domestic ammunition/missile arsenal.
> 
> But the need for the A/D part was more urgent. Why was it urgent? Because this long-range air defense tender, which we call T-LORAMIDS, has a history of almost 20 years. The USA, for some reason, tried to delay Turkey's access to these systems, directly or indirectly. In the end, we started to develop our own system starting from the lowest layer, and during this time, the S-400 system has been an assurance in the hands of the Turkish state in case of any western bloc relationship totally collapse. It is worth remembering that this purchase came after an attempt at an Atlanticist-backed uprising in the south of Turkey, a pro-NATO military coup attempt in Turkey, and an attempt to push TR into a war in Syria.
> 
> Another issue regarding F35 combat jet planning is how functional this aircraft will be for the air force of a country whose alliance relations with the United States are at risk of being completely disrupted. In other words, when we look at the developing geopolitical and recent cyclical developments, Turkey's move away from the F-35 supply is also could be Turkey's choice in a way. Or at the very least, it may indicate that the air force will no longer be entirely dependent on (and control) US logistics. Even if Turkey returns to the F-35 program, previous plans such as 100+16 are now completely unrealistic. I do not want to spread the subject too much. Because it is too complex and has many sub-items.
> 
> TLDR, the MMU represents a transformation and the goal of full independence for the Turkish air force. We are not far from there. Therefore, we can pass the current risk range without the F-35. It is better in any case than stepping back from our bigger interests and can be ignored.


time is something we don't have.......ur nato friends will turn on u very soon

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## PakAlp

Indos said:


> You cannot just install a different engine as simple as like that, redesign ( basic design, detail design) and then followed up with testing which need a lot of money, capable human power, and considerable time.
> 
> We can see this on India Tejas Mk2 development despite F 404 and F 414 is basically the same engine but with different thrust. Let alone F 110 GE engine with China engines


Option 1
Turkey/Pak TFX is not yet finalised and they can design tfx based on the Chinese engine.
China already proved they can make 4.5th generation jet engine from J10s induction as they carry chinese engine, so a 5th generation jet engine by 2030s is highly possible. This will fit in with the timeline of tfx induction. 

Option 2
If Turkey believes they can make their own engine by 2035 then Pakistan has no issue with this as Pakistan will also be inducting J31/J35 multirole jet. So they can wait until 2040s for the tfx. The big but is will Turkey be able to get 5th generation engine ready by 2035 and on top Turkey needs to start inducting Tfx by 2035 otherwise they will fall behind the regional powers. China had the 4th generation engine ready by 2006 but the quality did not match or exceed those of the Russian engine and it took them 15 years to fix that. 

Turk/Pak collaboration is positive, Turkey will have a customer who will purchase atleast 100+ Tfx planes, Azerbaijan will also become a customer. This will benefit Turkish industries and the money will be reinvested back to the defence industry. Pakistan can also request China to aid Turkey in to developing the engine, many components of the plane can be made in Pakistan to bring the cost down. 

Other than that how can Pakistan contribute, the design will be Turkish with little Pakistani input, the avionics, missiles will be Turkish, engine Turkish etc.


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## Indos

PakAlp said:


> Option 1
> Turkey/Pak TFX is not yet finalised and they can design tfx based on the Chinese engine.
> China already proved they can make 4.5th generation jet engine from J10s induction as they carry chinese engine, so a 5th generation jet engine by 2030s is highly possible. This will fit in with the timeline of tfx induction.
> 
> Option 2
> If Turkey believes they can make their own engine by 2035 then Pakistan has no issue with this as Pakistan will also be inducting J31/J35 multirole jet. So they can wait until 2040s for the tfx. The big but is will Turkey be able to get 5th generation engine ready by 2035 and on top Turkey needs to start inducting Tfx by 2035 otherwise they will fall behind the regional powers. China had the 4th generation engine ready by 2006 but the quality did not match or exceed those of the Russian engine and it took them 15 years to fix that.
> 
> Turk/Pak collaboration is positive, Turkey will have a customer who will purchase atleast 100+ Tfx planes, Azerbaijan will also become a customer. This will benefit Turkish industries and the money will be reinvested back to the defence industry. Pakistan can also request China to aid Turkey in to developing the engine, many components of the plane can be made in Pakistan to bring the cost down.
> 
> Other than that how can Pakistan contribute, the design will be Turkish with little Pakistani input, the avionics, missiles will be Turkish, engine Turkish etc.



TFX current design is based on F 110 GE engine made by General Electric, so the mass production will likely use F 110 GE engine. Their official statement about local engine induction in 2026-2028 prototype should not cloud our rational since making jet engine is not easy as Turkey even until now still use foreign engine for their SOM cruise missiles. 

If Pakistan official want to join the program, it means they are ready to use F 110 engine, something that should not be seen as problematic as Pakistan Air Force is still operating their F 16 squadrons with full support in term of spares of components by US companies.

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## GiantPanda

The J-10, J-11B, JF-17 and J-20 had flown with two different engines.

In fact, the J-10C that the PAF is getting uses the WS-10B but its initial batches were installed with AL-31s. The same with J-20.

The JF-17 though the PAF uses the RD-93 have flown with WS-13 in China. The FC-31 prototypes initially flew with RD-93 and then changed to WS-13.

So changing engines is certainly not impossible judging by how many times China had done it even within batches of the same sub-types.

Very possible that the TFX can go to a new engine as long as it is in the same class. I believe the TFX was envisioned to use a medium sized engine like the RR EJ200. It won't be able to change to a heavy engine like the WS-10 (or F110 for that matter) but highly possible for another medium one like WS-13 or RD-93.

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## Indos

GiantPanda said:


> The J-10, J-11B, JF-17 and J-20 had flown with two different engines.
> 
> In fact, the J-10C that the PAF is getting uses the WS-10B but its initial batches were installed with AL-31s. The same with J-20.
> 
> The JF-17 though the PAF uses the RD-93 have flown with WS-13 in China. The FC-31 prototypes initially flew with RD-93 and then changed to WS-13.
> 
> So changing engines is certainly not impossible judging by how many times China had done it even within batches of the same sub-types.
> 
> Very possible that the TFX can go to a new engine as long as it is in the same class. I believe the TFX was envisioned to use a medium sized engine like the RR EJ200. It won't be able to change to a heavy engine like the WS-10 (or F110 for that matter) but highly possible for another medium one like WS-13 or RD-93.



That plane are Russian design and some new plane has been using Russian engine since the start. Chinese new engine program is basically following the dimension and lenght of Russian engine.

Same like Turkey, their new engine will try to mimic F 110 engine where their local company (JV with GE) has assembled F 110 engine with some components made in the country.

Different issue if TFX uses Chinese engine which is made based on Russian ones


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## GiantPanda

Indos said:


> TFX current design is based on F 110 GE engine made by General Electric, so the mass production will likely use F 110 GE engine. Their official statement about local engine induction in 2026-2028 prototype should not cloud our rational since making jet engine is not easy as Turkey even until now still use foreign engine for their SOM cruise missiles.
> 
> If Pakistan official want to join the program, it means they are ready to use F 110 engine, something that should not be seen as problematic as Pakistan Air Force is still operating their F 16 squadrons with full support in term of spares of components by US companies.




If the TFX is using the F110 then it should be able to use the WS-10. It is in the same class and would have similar dimensions.

I am surprised that the TFX would go with a heavy engine. It'll end up being the size of a F-15 or J-20.

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## Indos

GiantPanda said:


> If the TFX is using the F110 then it should be able to use the WS-10. It is in the same class and would have similar dimensions.
> 
> I am surprised that the TFX would go with a heavy engine. It'll end up being the size of a F-15 or J-20.



Lets check since it mimics Saturn engine from Russia

AL-31F[edit]​_Data from_ Gordon,[24] Rosoboronexport,[25] United Engine Corporation[26]

General characteristics​
*Type:* Two-shaft afterburning turbofan
*Length:* 4,945 mm (194.7 in)
*Diameter:*
905 mm (35.6 in) inlet;
1,280 mm (50 in) maximum external

*Dry weight:* 1,520 kg (3,350 lb)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

F110-GE-129[edit]​_Data from_ _General Electric,_[12][13] _American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME)_,[14] _MTU_[15]

General characteristics​
*Type:* Afterburning turbofan
*Length:* 181.9 in (462 cm)
*Diameter:* 46.5 in (118 cm)
*Dry weight:* 3,920 lb (1,780 kg)
-----------------------------

Still have different that needs redesign,

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## GiantPanda

Indos said:


> That plane are Russian design and some new plane has been using Russian engine since the start. Chinese new engine program is basically following the dimension and lenght of Russian engine.
> 
> Same like Turkey, their new engine will try to mimic F 110 engine where their local company (JV with GE) has assembled F 110 engine with some components made in the country.
> 
> Different issue if TFX uses Chinese engine which is made based on Russian ones



The WS-10 is actually based on the CFM56 which came from the F101 which was developed into the F110. So those two are actually more related than the AL-31.

There were some differences with gear box placements because the WS-10 were initially designed for Flankers (J-11.) But the dimensions should be compatible.

The J-10 supposedly required gearbox and other placements very different from the Flankers but Shenyang/Chengdu has little issues it seems adopting the WS-10s to the J-10s.

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## Indos

GiantPanda said:


> The WS-10 is actually based on the CFM56 which came from the F101 which was developed into the F110. So those two are actually more related than the AL-31.
> 
> There were some differences with gear box placements because the WS-10 were initially designed for Flankers (J-11.) But the dimensions should be compatible.
> 
> The J-10 supposedly required gearbox and other placements very different from the Flankers but Shenyang/Chengdu has little issues it seems adopting the WS-10s to the J-10s.



Can you show the dimension, lenght etc since Wikipedia doesnt show it, I hope you provide the link with the engine producer website


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## GiantPanda

Indos said:


> Lets check since it mimics Saturn engine from Russia
> 
> AL-31F[edit]​_Data from_ Gordon,[24] Rosoboronexport,[25] United Engine Corporation[26]
> 
> General characteristics​
> *Type:* Two-shaft afterburning turbofan
> *Length:* 4,945 mm (194.7 in)
> *Diameter:*
> 905 mm (35.6 in) inlet;
> 1,280 mm (50 in) maximum external
> 
> *Dry weight:* 1,520 kg (3,350 lb)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> F110-GE-129[edit]​_Data from_ _General Electric,_[12][13] _American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME)_,[14] _MTU_[15]
> 
> General characteristics​
> *Type:* Afterburning turbofan
> *Length:* 181.9 in (462 cm)
> *Diameter:* 46.5 in (118 cm)
> *Dry weight:* 3,920 lb (1,780 kg)
> -----------------------------
> 
> Still have different that needs redesign,



As stated the TFX is not finalized and, to be honest, using a heavy engine is a surprise because you are building in heavier cost which is riskier for a new stealth model which would be already more expensive from the materials standpoint. Maybe it is because Turkey already supports the F110. But I recall that Turkey reached out to RR for the EJ200 and that is a medium engine.

The KFX, AMCA and FC-31 (even though the PLAAF are an all-heavy force) went with medium engines.


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## GiantPanda

Indos said:


> Can you show the dimension, lenght etc since Wikipedia doesnt show it, I hope you provide the link with the engine producer website



WS-10 has not been on the export list before so I don't have the official width and height details. Maybe we'll see more with the WS-10 exported to Pakistan.

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## Indos

GiantPanda said:


> As stated the TFX is not finalized and, to be honest, using a heavy engine is a surprise because you are building in heavier cost which is riskier for a new stealth model which would be already more expensive from the materials standpoint. Maybe it is because Turkey already supports the F110. But I recall that Turkey reached out to RR for the EJ200 and that is a medium engine.
> 
> The KFX, AMCA and FC-31 (even though the PLAAF are an all-heavy force) went with medium engines.



Turkey reach out for RR for their local engine but RR back down. Since the start I believe TFX is already been designed based on F 110 engine and we can see their old design is not much different with current design which shows it is a heavy weight fighters like F 22/J 20/ SU 57

Yup medium weight Stealth fighters will likely be more cost effective

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## HRK

UK_PAKISTANI said:


> In any NATO Russia war, Turkey will be crucial. When Turkey shot down a Russian fighter plane,
> some important figures from NATO countries openly said they would not go to war for Turkey because of xy and z ( Muslims),
> This must have had an impact on the thinking in Ankara.
> If they refuse to get involved in any NATO Russia conflict, NATO will be in trouble.
> Large parts of Europe will properly be occupied by Russia for some time at least.
> NATO could potentiality crumble if there is no massive US intervention quickly.


western Europe & USA would like to engage Russia outside Europe they will not fight a war at the doorstep of European countries, for obvious reason.

So my guess is that they will try to shift unstability either in Central Asia or Middle east in case of central asia Pakistan, Iran & Afghanistan would also suffer, but in the case of middle east Turkey, Syria would be vulnerable.

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## TsAr

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yes, Turkey can build all of those without Pakistan and, I am saying this seriously. But if you listen to the words of TAI's chief there is a big elephant in the room which can't be ignored and Mr. Kotil talked about it i.e. "I don't have enough engineer in Turkey". This is what Pakistan brings to the table and that's why all this collaboration is done at academia level (With NUST not with PAC). Next, If TAI's chief is saying that they are brining some operations to Pakistan, this is no small statement by any mean. I am not sure what exactly those operations are, but we can deduce from circumstantial evidences these will be related to airframe manufacturing. When we talk about it many people think it's because of Thunder and experience gained from that project but let me tell you the experience in this field transcends Thunder. PAC has stunned world's best in the business with its airframe manufacturing prowess when it brought back to life these planes from dead by repairing their framework. SAAB had written off these Erieye aircraft and Lockheed Martin did the same in case of that PAF's F-16B in the pic ... then PAC showed them what happen when you have right commitment and determined leadership to stand behind your efforts.
> View attachment 818261
> 
> 
> View attachment 818277
> Then there are legends known as Mirages IIIs/Vs ... more than 50 years old aircraft and still able to deliver. 2019 Op Swift Retort was mainly a strike mission carried out by PAF's mirages being maintained by PAC.
> View attachment 818274
> OEM specifications were that these aircraft will have 2 service life overhauls and PAC has already put these machines 4 times through its rigs ... I don't want to go specifications enhancement done by PAC/PAF on these as that's not the discussion here. When PAC/PAF were doing all this, the world including TAI was watching and taking note!
> Now, you will understand why TAI chief is so keen to bring the project to Pakistani young engineers  They know about the potential, rest can be achieved by cooperation and guiding these potential aviation experts of future for the benefits of both the nations.
> 
> Now, coming back to the topic at hand, Pakistan's cooperation with TAI on TFX is not going to be a platform level exercise rather cooperation is on sub-system level where TAI will get cheap but very capable minds and PAC will get fresh, advanced trained human resource in house with lots of opportunities to expand existing knowledge base in the country something many countries want but simply can't due to multiple reasons ranging from political to financial.
> 
> As far as Merging of TFX- and AZM is concerned. This is NOT POSSIBLE to do for PAF for very very obvious reason.
> 
> Let me try to explain that to you and others who think on the similar lines....
> 
> TFX development cycle is stretched to 2040 if everything in between then and now stay on schedule. But we know delays are inevitable in such complex projects. So we are talking about 2045-50 timelines for TFX flying in numbers and exported to PAF. Now, PAF's time of induction of 5th Gen fighter is not dependent on the completion of TFX or AZM. The most critical variable is when IAF will decide to induct its 5GF. PAF is following Minimum Credible Deterrence (State level military doctrine implemented across all 3 forces). You saw how quickly the operational gap created by IAF by acquiring Rafale was plugged by induction of J-10Cs. The same is going to happen with 5GF as it happened in case of 4.5GF! So, PAF has time to develop AZM while procuring off the shelf 5GF from China to restore the balance of power in the region to ensure strategic stability. India since 1971, has introduced instability in stability-Instability paradigm in the region around 7 or 8 times, and Pakistan restored stability in the paradigm every time to ensure deterrence stay alive. (Details are not relevant to the discussion at hand but if anyone interested can inbox me).
> 
> Pakistan will continue to cooperate with Turkey on TFX while expertise got will go to Azm as well because like I said (and TAI team also explained in that interview) that NUST engineers will be solving problems by breaking them into smaller challenges. Obviously we are talking about sub-system level R&D. Pakistan, for its own need, will keep Chinese channel open. This is our strategic constraint like I explained above. So, If Turkey can develop everything on its own, we will be more than glad, but if our brother has asked us for cooperation, this is also an honor for us as we consider this gesture as recognition to our talent. This changes nothing for PAF's future plans, AZM or anything!
> 
> Why NUST?
> 
> Many members have spoken on this as well. To me, it's related to the fact that NUST is only place in Pakistan with supercomputer installed, and it means this is a goto place for every organization in the country who has some sort of simulation, modeling and high fidelity analysis task at hand and require results with high degree of accuracy. This will also clear what Dr. Rizwan meant when he said NUST will be providing same services to TAI as it did for PAF's AZM! But then again it's my own understanding only.


Appart from super computer you missed the wind tunnel

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## Trango Towers

HRK said:


> western Europe & USA would like to engage Russia outside Europe they will not fight a war at the doorstep of European countries, for obvious reason.
> 
> So my guess is that they will try to shift unstability either in Central Asia or Middle east in case of central asia Pakistan, Iran & Afghanistan would also suffer, but in the case of middle east Turkey, Syria would be vulnerable.


Theh will find this hard.
Germany has said it will send 1000 anti tank and 500 stinger missiles to Ukraine. This is directly going to kill Russians

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## UK_PAKISTANI

HRK said:


> western Europe & USA would like to engage Russia outside Europe they will not fight a war at the doorstep of European countries, for obvious reason.
> 
> So my guess is that they will try to shift unstability either in Central Asia or Middle east in case of central asia Pakistan, Iran & Afghanistan would also suffer, but in the case of middle east Turkey, Syria would be vulnerable.


I agree. They would love to see another holy war against Russia.
All it would take is for the IEA to invade Tajikistan and take it over, Russia has a defence pack with them and would be expected to get involved.
Then all bets are off when its IEA vs Russia, everyone muslim will support IEA, then it will spread from there to central Asia into Russia.
It's a plausible plan, but the muslims are now too suspicious of the western encouraged and funded wars.


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## HRK

UK_PAKISTANI said:


> Then all bets are off when its IEA vs Russia


IEA is maintaining healthy relations with Russia.


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## S.Y.A

TsAr said:


> Appart from super computer you missed the wind tunnel


its not just about facilities but about human resources as well, many profs of nust have worked at nescom in the past, or worked at companies like intel, keysight, ericcsson etc abroad and then have returned to pakistan. a lot of them have continued to work with organizations like nescom, nrtc and the military itself on the side. not to forget that nust itself is JVof military and civil govt, with its rectors and pro-rectors coming from the military. Dr Rizwan Riaz himself is an air vice marshal.



That Guy said:


> It was always unclear how effective the s-400 would be against a 5th gen. What we do know is that Russian in-development s-500 system does have some sort of anti-stealth capability, or at least that's what the Russians claim.


as good as the sensors deployed with it.

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## PakShaheen79

TsAr said:


> Appart from super computer you missed the wind tunnel


Well, that's news for me.


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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> Ok, ... in a much miniaturised variant and clearly marked as being FAKE! It simply makes no sense to put the PAF flag on the inner side of the tail fin and its angle/position is also not correct. And finally the colour of the inner side does not fit!
> 
> As such I'm pretty sure some Chinese had a lot of fun today pranking that over-impatient German  ... or should I say "Kraut"!?
> 
> View attachment 819929


That's some serious fanboyism.

Off-topic but it's a big news. Project Azm and Turkish TFX program seems to be fused together.






A great interview by TAI CEO.
Time Stamp: 18:00
TFX has officially now become the TPFX 😜

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## The Terminator

The Terminator said:


> That's some serious fanboyism.
> 
> Off-topic but it's a big news. Project Azm and Turkish TFX program seems to be fused together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A great interview by TAI CEO.
> Time Stamp: 18:00
> TFX has officially now become the TPFX 😜


In this interview the CEO tells that how Innovative and creative ideas they get by engaging school going kids in their defense industries. And they make several teams of the brightest school/college students under TAI's professionals and let those kids play with their own ideas and train them as well. 

Now they are closely collaborating with top Pakistani universities and inducting Pakistani youth into their industries and also growing Pakistan's intellect/knowledge in real world aviation problem solving. Its really nice to hear about that the Pakistan is gonna grow that much in cutting edge tech by collaboration of leading global industries.



kursed said:


> Once the system arrives in Pakistan, don't expect too many pics of it. Pakistanis plan on keeping it tightly under wraps.


Ok no problem. Keep an eye on social media accounts 😜


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## The Eagle

The Terminator said:


> Off-topic but it's a big news. Project Azm and Turkish TFX program seems to be fused together.



Let's keep topics separate to avoid derailment.

Regards,

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## Al_Muhannad

@The Eagle, please consider unlocking the original Azm thread.

There are some technologies which have to re-invented. NASA did not just give its best engineers for engine design to SpaceX. The results is here. Cost-effective than, reusable space rockets which beat the Indians on cost per kg for a launch, and remove Russian dependency.






*London, U.K., and New Delhi, India - 11 October 2021: *Bharti-backed OneWeb, the low Earth orbit satellite communications company, today announced an arrangement through Letter of Intent with NewSpace India Limited (NSIL), the commercial arm of Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), to use the Indian-built PSLV (Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle) and the heavier GSLV-MkIII (Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle) as potential platforms to launch OneWeb’s satellites in India from 2022.









NSIL/ISRO and OneWeb to collaborate for taking Digital Connectivity to every Corner of the World


ISRO’s PSLV and GSLV-MkIII to become a part of launch programme for OneWeb’s LEO satellites that will beam high speed broadband on earth.




oneweb.net





Just imagine the military and propaganda impact if Indians start a satellite constellation like StarLink and OneWeb which will have provide broadband capability to remote regions to Balochistan/GB where even we do not have internet connectivity.

@Signalian @JamD @PanzerKiel

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## Scorpiooo

Any serious update on this venture or still in air


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## The Terminator

KaiserX said:


> The key value for the PAF will be to pivot the 5th generation design/tech towards a fully unmanned 5/6th generation platform that would support the TFX in its roles. Id much rather have the PAF go the co-development join venture route so that more funds are available for such a concept.
> 
> If we create such a UCAV fighter alongside the TFX that would give us a huge competitive edge over the IAF for decades to come.


Don't you worry. We don't have any strong industrial base to support development of any kind of fighter let alone a next generation fighter.

So it would surely be a JV or even just entering into someone's project in last stages to tell them to retrofit PAF requirements into their project.

Have heard of a lot about collaborations, ToT and soon our own R&D would start spitting out actual big ticket items but all we mange to do is to localize some production and bring in the kits for the rest to assemble. With all those Govt held defense industries, ToT and collaboration from all across the globe, but still we haven't been able to design and induct even a rifle of our own.

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## FuturePAF

TOYGAN said:


> TAI's new plan as of 2022
> 
> 18 march 2023 roll out
> 18 march 2025 first flight
> 
> in 2029 , delivery of the first TFX to TURAF ... ( TFX will have block0 , block1 , etc )
> 
> and until 2040 TAI will produce all TFXs for the Turkish Airforce
> ( to produce 24 TFX per year )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey and the USA renewed negotiations regarding the F-35s.
> 6 F-35s made for Turkey stand in a hangar. We are discussing what will happen to them.
> 
> the discussions on both the F-16 and the F-35 continue. Turkey requested 40 new F-16 Block 70 fighter jets and 80 conversion kits to modernize its F-16s to block70 standard
> 
> 
> 
> *-- *Turkey develops MIUS unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to possessing the same advanced characteristics as 5th-generation stealth Fighters ... ( first flight in 2023 )
> 
> ( MIUS will be able to perform air to air combat , strategic attack missions,
> suppression/destruction of air defense systems and missile attack missions )
> 
> Endurance : 5 Hours
> Service ceiling : 40,000 ft
> Cruise speed : supersonic 1,4 mach
> Payload : 1.5 Tons
> 
> -- AESA radar and next-generation avionics, sensor fusion
> -- Internal weapon stations
> -- Stealth flight capability
> -- The ability to hide from Radars
> -- Aggressive maneuverability with delta canard and vertical stabilizers
> -- Smart fleet autonomy equipped with artificial intelligence
> -- Turbofan engine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another Turkish project for PAF to counter IAF
> MIUS is being designed in a stealth form that the missile slots are taken in the fuselage, as in the 5th generation Fighter Jets , equipped with powerful AESA Radar and BVR missiles to change the concept of air warfare


Hope the Turks work on a STOVL version of the Fighter drone, for their LHD. By now it should be a very well understood technology, especially by a (former) F-35 partner nation. Would make for every good fighters (based out of dispersed makeshift air fields) to support manned fighters.


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## Basel

Turkey working with Rolls-Royce on 5th-gen combat aircraft engine


The top body of Turkey’s defense industry has started cooperating with United Kingdom-based Rolls-Royce on the engine to power the country’s National...




www.dailysabah.com


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## Scorpiooo

Turks are exploring maximum options for there jets, so that they can have multiple options to test there prototypes

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## Pappa Alpha

I have read a news article that says Turkey is collaborating with UK for the engines of its 5th gen. fighter. I don't see how TF-X will be viable for PAF due to current or possible future sanctions.

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## Qutb-ud-din-Aibak

Pappa Alpha said:


> I have read a news article that says Turkey is collaborating with UK for the engines of its 5th gen. fighter. I don't see how TF-X will be viable for PAF due to current or possible future sanctions.



It will be viable because they will make an ingenious F110 engine for the TFX by 2026 hence this is viable for Pakistan otherwise they wouldn't get involved with it in the first place hence they are assured of it.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

According to Prof Dr Ismail Demir, head of defense industries department, TFX has the following sources for its engine:

F-16 engines for block 0
Under development indigenous engine project
JV with Rolls Royce for a new engine for 5th gen fighters
An X source to be announced later
Now, which country has a 5th gen fighter engine that can accommodate Pak, or is accommodated by Pak?

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## CSAW

With the dilemma of US NOT providing NOC for ATAK-I engines - PAF think tank must have debated and developed a strategy for the right source of Power plant.
The collaboration btw two countries on a 5.0th Gen fighter jet [hopefully] would be in a much broader context.

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## Scorpiooo

Qutb-ud-din-Aibak said:


> It will be viable because they will make an ingenious F110 engine for the TFX by 2026 hence this is viable for Pakistan otherwise they wouldn't get involved with it in the first place hence they are assured of it.


We can have PAF specific variant with Chinese engine and even few avoinics to integrate Chinese weapons

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## RangeMaster

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502206220459036674


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## JamD

RangeMaster said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502206220459036674


Uh no. That's one of the Azm FGFA concepts that has been around for years. It was even on the c130 tail. It's in papers too. Nothing to do with Turkey. Hero bannay ka shoq hai sabko twitter pe.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

RangeMaster said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502206220459036674


It is quite simple that Pakistan can't try its luck on TFX due to origin of TFX Engine being UK.
Possibility is that PAF is collaborating with Turkey on avionics and some key parts development for NGFA.May be PAF will pay to TAI firms for helping us in design phase and sensors development.Full TFX is no go.

@JamD how much serious we can take the recently released PAF video? I think it was just engineers doing their routine fun.

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## JamD

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> It is quite simple that Pakistan can't try its luck on TFX due to origin of TFX Engine being UK.
> Possibility is that PAF is collaborating with Turkey on avionics and some key parts development for NGFA.May be PAF will pay to TAI firms for helping us in design phase and sensors development.Full TFX is no go.
> 
> @JamD how much serious we can take the recently released PAF video? I think it was just engineers doing their routine fun.


most likely but let's see

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## Chak Bamu

Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.


JF denotes Joint Fighter. I am hoping Project Azm will be PF-1 or P-1. P-1 has a nice ring to it.



defence.pk





"Someone may or may not have seen project AZM design 

I can say with 80% confidence that what I have seen is indeed AZM design. I've debated in my head about it and I have decided not to disclose anything about it. I will let some idiot do that when it becomes more widely known. I will only say this: It is a clean sheet design. Now whether Pakistan uses this design to get concessions on J-31/35 is anybody's guess."

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Chak Bamu said:


> Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.
> 
> 
> JF denotes Joint Fighter. I am hoping Project Azm will be PF-1 or P-1. P-1 has a nice ring to it.
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Someone may or may not have seen project AZM design
> 
> I can say with 80% confidence that what I have seen is indeed AZM design. I've debated in my head about it and I have decided not to disclose anything about it. I will let some idiot do that when it becomes more widely known. I will only say this: It is a clean sheet design. Now whether Pakistan uses this design to get concessions on J-31/35 is anybody's guess."


Will you hold your breath for this design to become an end product.It seems a complex design.


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## Ghessan

Chak Bamu said:


> Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.
> 
> 
> JF denotes Joint Fighter. I am hoping Project Azm will be PF-1 or P-1. P-1 has a nice ring to it.
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Someone may or may not have seen project AZM design
> 
> I can say with 80% confidence that what I have seen is indeed AZM design. I've debated in my head about it and I have decided not to disclose anything about it. I will let some idiot do that when it becomes more widely known. I will only say this: It is a clean sheet design. Now whether Pakistan uses this design to get concessions on J-31/35 is anybody's guess."



still sticking to 80%? 
and you are relating your previous year post to this design, confirming it?


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## Chak Bamu

Ghessan said:


> still sticking to 80%?
> and you are relating your previous year post to this design, confirming it?


Well, I would let someone else confirm it to 100%. A few design details are not noticeable & I am not going to say anything about them. Its twin engined, has super-manueverability, & will be fast. AMCA can not hold even a candle to it.

But the question is: will this be built when there is J-35 & TFX?



Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Will you hold your breath for this design to become an end product.It seems a complex design.


No I would not. Time will tell. Chances are low now.

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## dBSPL

MMU first prototype (372 days left to roll out ceremony)






MIUS B1 (1 year to first flight)

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## Bin Laden

Chak Bamu said:


> Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.
> 
> 
> JF denotes Joint Fighter. I am hoping Project Azm will be PF-1 or P-1. P-1 has a nice ring to it.
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Someone may or may not have seen project AZM design
> 
> I can say with 80% confidence that what I have seen is indeed AZM design. I've debated in my head about it and I have decided not to disclose anything about it. I will let some idiot do that when it becomes more widely known. I will only say this: It is a clean sheet design. Now whether Pakistan uses this design to get concessions on J-31/35 is anybody's guess."

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## Deino

But with canards?? This means it is NOT plain and simple a Pakistani-TFX but a different design!

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## YurtDefence

Bin Laden said:


> View attachment 823023
> 
> View attachment 823024


First image is fan-made.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

Bin Laden said:


> View attachment 823023
> 
> View attachment 823024


Although I told with the SSB employee and the reliable defense magazine that TFX and AZM are not the same projects and that they only support each other, some people talked about it for pages and insisted on not accepting it. Now you are trying to emulate the AZM image shown from the official source with the TFX fan art made by an unofficial person years ago. *Above all, have your trust and respect for your engineers.*

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## Indos

Bin Laden said:


> View attachment 823023
> 
> View attachment 823024



The first picture of two design plane with and without canart are KF21/IFX design. Completed in 2012 December, developed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace.

The one without canard that become the base of KF21 final design.






KF21/IFX has 2 design

(Use Automatic translate in English for certain web browser)






Program KFX/IFX Dilanjutkan, Pemerintah Diminta Segera Memilih Desain


Angkasa Online - Majalah Aviasi dan Militer



web.archive.org

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## Bin Laden

RadarGudumluMuhimmat said:


> Although I told with the SSB employee and the reliable defense magazine that TFX and AZM are not the same projects and that they only support each other, some people talked about it for pages and insisted on not accepting it. Now you are trying to emulate the AZM image shown from the official source with the TFX fan art made by an unofficial person years ago. *Above all, have your trust and respect for your engineers.*


Yo chill out 😅, I wasn't trying to emulate anything to anyone, I apologize if it seemed that way.
I just shared it cuz it looked very similar to this concept.
Rest I don't think I need to prove anything about my respect and trust on my motherlands hardworking engineers.


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## Tair-Lahoti

*I think it is easier to compare now.*









Tair-Lahoti said:


> *I think it is easier to compare now.*



it looks like AZM to me than TFX.

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## Deino

but does this mean the cooperation with Turkey is more a system related one than airframe? At least given it is a delta canard, it is not the TFX, which is already under construction.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Deino said:


> but does this mean the cooperation with Turkey is more a system related one than airframe? At least given it is a delta canard, it is not the TFX, which is already under construction.


Yes this seems to be the case. @RadarGudumluMuhimmat have also said this with reference of a reliable defence magazine.

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## Chak Bamu

Deino said:


> but does this mean the cooperation with Turkey is more a system related one than airframe? At least given it is a delta canard, it is not the TFX, which is already under construction.


It is not quite possible to speculate at this point. More information is needed. Azm 5Gen design is more complicated & we do not yet know if that is what Pakistan would opt for.

The fact that Pakistan is developing technology for own radar & other avionics tells me that the in case of a joint venture, PAF may want its customizations under the skin. So we can not say.

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## Scorpiooo

Chak Bamu said:


> It is not quite possible to speculate at this point. More information is needed. Azm 5Gen design is more complicated & we do not yet know if that is what Pakistan would opt for.
> 
> The fact that Pakistan is developing technology for own radar & other avionics tells me that the in case of a joint venture, PAF may want its customizations under the skin. So we can not say.


Most probably Chinese engine and avionics to integrate Chinese weapons set which we currently using and even upcoming

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## Chak Bamu

Scorpiooo said:


> Most probably Chinese engine and avionics to integrate Chinese weapons set which we currently using and even upcoming


Engine would probably be Chinese, unless PAF wishes to surprise us. But avionics is a question mark in my mind. It may be a mix of things. But I think that the radar at least, the main component of avionics package, would be indigenous.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> It is quite simple that Pakistan can't try its luck on TFX due to origin of TFX Engine being UK.
> Possibility is that PAF is collaborating with Turkey on avionics and some key parts development for NGFA.May be PAF will pay to TAI firms for helping us in design phase and sensors development.Full TFX is no go.
> 
> @JamD how much serious we can take the recently released PAF video? I think it was just engineers doing their routine fun.


The TFX using an engine of UK origin or involving UK technologies is the best possible outcome for the PAF outside of Turkey developing its own engine from scratch. In either case, the engine will be ITAR-free (i.e. no key US parts). That's the main condition the PAF is worried about

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## Scorpiooo

Chak Bamu said:


> Engine would probably be Chinese, unless PAF wishes to surprise us. But avionics is a question mark in my mind. It may be a mix of things. But I think that the radar at least, the main component of avionics package, would be indigenous.


Yes avoinics will mix to use both Chinese and Turkish (western origin) weapons

Similar case like jinnah class ship will be Turkish origin but will have Chinese addition too



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The TFX using an engine of UK origin or involving UK technologies is the best possible outcome for the PAF outside of Turkey developing its own engine from scratch. In either case, the engine will be ITAR-free (i.e. no key US parts). That's the main condition the PAF is worried about


Make sense, but UK is USA puppet they can make what ever they want to restrict on the other hand PAF will try to integrate backup option atleast in prototypes for PAF specific version possible engine will Russian or Chinese

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## imranyounus

This video is a representative of what PAF has already in service.
Showing Azam models means PAF is still going independently. In particular the bad experience of T129 Pakistan is not in a mood to put all its eggs in one basket.

What ever cooperation there will be it will be on compleat system or sub system that Turkey makes Independently.

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## Scorpiooo

imranyounus said:


> This video is a representative of what PAF has already in service.
> Showing Azam models means PAF is still going independently. In particular the bad experience of T129 Pakistan is not in a mood to put all its eggs in one basket.
> 
> What ever cooperation there will be it will be on compleat system or sub system that Turkey makes Independently.


T129 was due to American engines


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## imranyounus

Scorpiooo said:


> T129 was due to American engines


That is what I meant. If TFX involved any major Western part subject to third party restrictions. PAF will most likely desist from such a project. And any involvement may be limited to the point of it being an additional or second option only.


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## Scorpiooo

imranyounus said:


> That is what I meant. If TFX involved any major Western part subject to third party restrictions. PAF will most likely desist from such a project. And any involvement may be limited to the point of it being an additional or second option only.


For that PAC can go with Chinese engine integration for PAF variant


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## Chak Bamu

imranyounus said:


> Showing Azam models means PAF is still going independently.


It could mean quite the opposite also - think psychological warfare.

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## YurtDefence

Scorpiooo said:


> Yes avoinics will mix to use both Chinese and Turkish (western origin) weapons
> 
> Similar case like jinnah class ship will be Turkish origin but will have Chinese addition too
> 
> 
> Make sense, but UK is USA puppet they can make what ever they want to restrict on the other hand PAF will try to integrate backup option atleast in prototypes for PAF specific version possible engine will Russian or Chinese



I think this is key, Turkey and China do not hesitate to integrate systems onto each other's weapons platforms.


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## sparten

Chak Bamu said:


> It could mean quite the opposite also - think psychological warfare.


Wouldn’t be surprised if we see a first flight being announced in the not to distant future.

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## Chak Bamu

sparten said:


> Wouldn’t be surprised if we see a first flight being announced in the not to distant future.


Good if it happens. I would not be holding my breath, though.

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## imranyounus

Nothing is final until its officially inducted into service. 
But it makes more sense to go with independent design if we're not sure of a major component like engine. Modifying TFX to use chines engine while original one is using Western one will still need lots of work.


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Chak Bamu said:


> Good if it happens. I would not be holding my breath, though.


If we are going to buy a Chinese or Turkish fighter jet in the end, then it is very unreasonable and expensive approach to work on NGFA.PAF should work on Turkish MIUS like stealth UCAVs.I am all for spending all our energies on avionics and UAVs development.

I somewhere read about development of fixed wing UAV.Thats the way to go.


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## Scorpiooo

The status of collaboration will be clear in coming months, what sort collaboration they going for or is there actual JV or not


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The TFX using an engine of UK origin or involving UK technologies is the best possible outcome for the PAF outside of Turkey developing its own engine from scratch. In either case, the engine will be ITAR-free (i.e. no key US parts). That's the main condition the PAF is worried about


It's a JV b/w Kale Group and Rolls Royce for a new NGF engine as per Prof Ismail Demir. RR may not have a large market share in military grade engines to begin with. So, it's a win-win...

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## Scorpiooo

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> It's a JV b/w Kale Group and Rolls Royce for a new NGF engine as per Prof Ismail Demir. RR may not have a large market share in military grade engines to begin with. So, it's a win-win...


Whatever outcome, Turkish must have backup plan as well, they are very strong and becoming independent in defence industry

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Scorpiooo said:


> Whatever outcome, Turkish must have backup plan as well, they are very strong and becoming independent in defence industry


According to the Turkish Defense Industries boss Prof Demir at a very recent TV program there's an option from an X source. He doesn't want to disclose further....

Now, RR is already there, so any other Western source is highly unlikely. As for the Ukranian, nothing to add. As for the Russian, they don't have a proper FGF, not to mention the current mayhem. Now comes the "dark horse" China that in fact has equipped J-20s with their indigenous engines; and, add the Pak connection into the equation. Only future will tell....

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## Scorpiooo

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> According to the Turkish Defense Industries boss Prof Demir at a very recent TV program there's an option from an X source. He doesn't want to disclose further....
> 
> Now, RR is already there, so any other Western source is highly unlikely. As for the Ukranian, nothing to add. As for the Russian, they don't have a proper FGF, not to mention the current mayhem. Now comes the "dark horse" China that in fact has equipped J-20s with their indigenous engines; and, add the Pak connection into the equation. Only future will tell....


Yes Chinese engine is possible via Pakistan

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## Silicon0000

What about mission computer and coding? PAF and TAF both have to integrate different key systems along with weapon packages having both Chinese and European origin, This needs to be really flexible thing 🤔

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## Scorpiooo

Silicon0000 said:


> What about mission computer and coding? PAF and TAF both have to integrate different key systems along with weapon packages having both Chinese and European origin, This needs to be really flexible thing 🤔


It will also benefit tuskish, Chinese are going very advance in BRV and waepon


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## TsAr

Chak Bamu said:


> Engine would probably be Chinese, unless PAF wishes to surprise us. But avionics is a question mark in my mind. It may be a mix of things. But I think that the radar at least, the main component of avionics package, would be indigenous.


That would require lot of integration headaches, I hope it does not end up like SU30mki

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## Chak Bamu

TsAr said:


> That would require lot of integration headaches, I hope it does not end up like SU30mki


PAF is smarter than IAF. I do not consider chances of that happening as above zero. PAF will not compromise on quality & I am sure that if any indigenous system does not come up to expectations, PAF would reject it & rightly so. We can not afford to experiment. Remember the first prototype of JF-17 in 2003? PAF rejected it outright. So, we should rest easy in that regard.

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## Chak Bamu

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> If we are going to buy a Chinese or Turkish fighter jet in the end, then it is very unreasonable and expensive approach to work on NGFA.PAF should work on Turkish MIUS like stealth UCAVs.I am all for spending all our energies on avionics and UAVs development.
> 
> I somewhere read about development of fixed wing UAV.Thats the way to go.


I think either PAF has already been following a great approach (with much mis-info thrown in) or that someone has been paying attention to all the griping on this forum

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## HRK

Deino said:


> but does this mean the cooperation with Turkey is more a system related one than airframe?


this is what was expected and understood

Following is what our Minister of defence Production said in 2016


HRK said:


> - Turkey asked us to assist in Integration side for their 10 year national program for fighter jet (Minister didn't speak in detail about this)
> - According to him we have at least this level of Capabilities, Expertise & Technology



Secondly one of our previous Air Chief (I think Sohail Aman) also hinted about cooperation on NGF with friendly countries.

So design is expected to be indigenous but at subsystems level many subsystems could be the combination of Jointly developed, Jointly research and even off-the-shelf purchases.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> this is what was expected and understood
> 
> Following is what our Minister of defence Production said in 2016
> 
> 
> Secondly one of our previous Air Chief (I think Sohail Aman) also hinted about cooperation on NGF with friendly countries.
> 
> So design is expected to be indigenous but at subsystems level many subsystems could be the combination of Jointly developed, Jointly research and even off-the-shelf purchases.


tbh, when you read what ACM Sohail Aman told Bol Narratives back in 2017, he basically said:


The PAF will order J-10CE
The PAF will sign up for the TFX
The PAF is always open to more F-16s
In hindsight, it looks like a pretty rational and feasible strategy: You induct the J-10CE to get that 4.5-gen high-performance capability in parallel to an NGFA development program (be it TFX or J-35). You keep adding J-10CEs through the decade to keep the balance in check (2022-2032). From around 2035, you add the NGFA. If the US opts to release some more F-16s, then _grape_. 

@JamD @kursed @SQ8



> *Narratives: Indian defence spending is among the highest in the world. India plans to overhaul its Air Force by 2020. The PAF doesn’t have such funding. How do you maintain a balance?*​​ACM: Overall Indian defence spending is seven to eight times more than ours, as they keep their defence-related research and development funds under a separate head.​​They have signed a deal to buy the French Rafale, which is absolutely a four-plus generation aircraft. They have the Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs. It is a potent aircraft. I, myself, have flown the Su-30 two or three times and found it very capable. But we have developed the JF-17 Thunder. We cannot call it parity, but we have a core structure, which doesn’t prevent us from launching an air campaign. It is all about your asset deployment. However, in future – in the next 10 years down the line – if we don’t induct fifth-generation aircraft, then the disparity will increase. Indians are working on a fifth-generation aircraft.​​*Pakistan definitely has to induct new aircraft. We have both Chinese and Russian options.*​​*Narratives: India is inducting US technology, which is now difficult for Pakistan to acquire. What are the options?*​​_ACM: That’s a difficulty, but one has to adjust according to the international environment. The advantage we have is that the JF-17 production has given a major impetus to our engineers and technicians. We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them.* For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made._​​_The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends._​​_Narratives: So should we call restrictions on technology transfer by the West a blessing in disguise for Pakistan?_​​_ACM: In a way yes, but even when there were no restrictions and our relations with the United States were good, we worked very hard on the JF-17 project. And I am proud to say that it is comparable to any fourth generation aircraft. We have been steadily focusing on developing indigenous capabilities. It is not when we face sanctions alone that we think of developing indigenous technology._​​_*Narratives: Are you looking for other options after Washington refused to fund its promised eight F-16s?*_​​_ACM: These F-16s had to be purchased on shared funding. Operation Zarb-e-Azb remains our war, but the Americans had been asking for a North Waziristan operation for years. I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both._​​_While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I* think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia. We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.*_​​_Having said this, we still desire a very good relationship with the United States at the national level. The challenges are too big in this region (for both the countries). We have to fight terrorism together and it is a shared objective. It’s the question of giving Pakistan the capacity and capability to fight this threat. A myopic approach and restrictions won’t be helpful._​


​





Bol Narratives Interview (April 2017) with ACM Sohail Aman


DEFENCELINE: A Fighting Air Chief Two fronts – one mission By: Amir Zia Published: April 1, 2017 In his first-ever interview to any media outlet, Air Chief Sohail Aman shares his thoughts and vision about the external and internal challenges faced by the country, the PAF’s modernisation plans...



defence.pk

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh, when you read what ACM Sohail Aman told Bol Narratives back in 2017, he basically said:
> 
> 
> The PAF will order J-10CE
> The PAF will sign up for the TFX
> The PAF is always open to more F-16s
> In hindsight, it looks like a pretty rational and feasible strategy: You induct the J-10CE to get that 4.5-gen high-performance capability in parallel to an NGFA development program (be it TFX or J-35). You keep adding J-10CEs through the decade to keep the balance in check (2022-2032). From around 2035, you add the NGFA. If the US opts to release some more F-16s, then _grape_.
> 
> @JamD @kursed @SQ8
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bol Narratives Interview (April 2017) with ACM Sohail Aman
> 
> 
> DEFENCELINE: A Fighting Air Chief Two fronts – one mission By: Amir Zia Published: April 1, 2017 In his first-ever interview to any media outlet, Air Chief Sohail Aman shares his thoughts and vision about the external and internal challenges faced by the country, the PAF’s modernisation plans...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


PAF always waiting mode for more F16s.. of things work out


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Silicon0000 said:


> What about mission computer and coding? PAF and TAF both have to integrate different key systems along with weapon packages having both Chinese and European origin, This needs to be really flexible thing 🤔


I think it's very much doable once you have the permission and required codes from the OEMs for the imtegration...


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## Scorpiooo

Lets hope we will have some actual news on 23 march


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## raahaat7

Waqas said:


> So when will the PAF be flying the TFX, somewhere around 2025?


??



The Eagle said:


> Man...... who knows? A lot is being done behind closed doors. One can only imagine as what's being declared publicly. As far as I can understand, you were actually expecting a Pakistani design alone and alone being built. However, the keyword is always collaboration. You can call it TFX or NGF for PAF and TFX for TuAF both at a time. The highlighted part says the first cycle of conceptual design phase. Not even the design itself but first phase of a conceptual design followed by 3 more conceptual design to reach at final conceptual design and then so on and on. Not everything can be said or told by officials and I understand that. Exchange programs are actively being done and so the concern students or professionals are sent into other offices/entities to take part into R&D programs. Then after, they will have to look into future projects & so the collaboration. You don't just reinvent the wheel by your own at home.
> 
> 
> 
> Surprised by the date you mentioned. Is it coming from a source you might have seen? Please share in details.


not before 203


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## Kedikesenfare2

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550152837224595456

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## Kedikesenfare2

Kızılelma for the Pak Airforce?

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## HRK

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> Kızılelma for the Pak Airforce?


too early to say ...


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## Sulman Badshah

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> Kızılelma for the Pak Airforce?


not now , but might be in future 
now PAF went for Akinci and Tb2


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## Kedikesenfare2

Sulman Badshah said:


> not now , but might be in future
> now PAF went for Akinci and Tb2





HRK said:


> too early to say ...


@Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others

May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?

People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.

Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.

A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.

There are other opportunities as well.

Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.

If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?

I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.

I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.

Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?


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## fitpOsitive

Actually Pakistan is very lucky country. We have very very good friends that we are a total mess on natuinal level, but our friend anyway keep helping us. 
But yeah, there is limit to every thing and sooner we realize it, the better.


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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?




We Pakistanis are not delusional like the Turks. When Turkiye is able to make their own engine, Pakistan may consider the offer. Until then we have a very reliable partner in China.

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## Kedikesenfare2

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> We Pakistanis are not delusional like the Turks. When Turkiye is able to make their own engine, Pakistan may consider the offer. Until then we have a very reliable partner in China.


I understand this as I wrote it in the OP. But you either haven't read it or you're not understanding my question.

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## arslank03

@JamD wanna comment on this


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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> I understand this as I wrote it in the OP. But you either haven't read it or you're not understanding my question.



You say you don't understand why we do not join your project.

I say the onus is on Turkiye after the colossal failure of the T129 ATAK chopper deal.

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## Kedikesenfare2

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> You say you don't understand why we do not join your project.
> 
> I say the onus is on Turkiye after the colossal failure of the T129 ATAK choppers deal.


No, bro, you obviously don't understand my point of view. I want to see the Made in Pakistan stamp on as much equipment as possible in the Turkish defense industry. This is not about procurement. Why can't you understand this? You have the industrial foundation to participate but you don't and I'm kindly asking for the reason behind this decision. Perhaps I'm overlooking something and that's why I'm asking.

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## HRK

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?


Some sort of discussion b/w Turkey & Pakistan was done in past & some low level cooperation was agreed b/w both the countries.

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## Sinnerman108

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?



I am not sure if anyone here will be able to, or has the credentials to answer that question.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> Kızılelma for the Pak Airforce?


A natural extension after TB2 and _Akinji_......

Since TEI is working on turbofan engines geared for MIUS it's more of a reality now....

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

My assumptions:

Pak does the defense procurement and cooperation jobs without much fanfare and public knowledge for her finances, technological bases, external relations etc. are extremely opaque.
Pak's explicit involvement would raise unnecessary eye brows in the Western capitals, especially DC.
Pak has her own FGF project called AZM.
Pak loves to maintain secrecy and produce surprises.
Pak acts as a reaction to India's action.
Etc.

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## dBSPL

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> We Pakistanis are not delusional like the Turks.


2004: When will the Turks design/product their own infantry rifle?
2006: When will the Turks design/product their own warship?
2008: When will the Turks build their own armed drone?
2010: When will the Turks produce attack helicopters?
2012: When will the Turks build their own missile arsenal?
2014: When will the Turks build their own air defense system?
2016: When will the Turks build their own warplanes?
2018: When will the Turks make their own air-to-air missiles?
2020: When will the Turks produce their own turboshaft engine?
2022: When will the Turks make their own turbofan engine?

I have been following various defense industry forums for nearly 20 years. In every era, we have been described as delusionals. Moreover, 90% of those who said this were people who were unaware of the established production capacity in TR and people really not aware about developments. Turkiye's problem was to show courage and invest in areas such as design, testing and material technologies besides its production capabilities.


Our resources are not unlimited, resource efficiency is vital to manage project risks, we have achieved some things, we are trying to achieve some things. But we never said that, 'hey do not dream in vain, we already did not catch up with this industrial accumilation so just never mind.'

I don't know you and please don't take what I say as disrespect. But please do not discourage Pakistani youth here. If there is a way of salvation for Pakistan, it is in the youth who will dream for their country and set out with this dream.

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## SABRE

I thought Turkey and Pakistan had pooled their resources together for the next-gen fighter. Did I miss something while I have been keeping away from this forum?


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## JamD

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?


The simple answer is that Pakistan is interested/involved in the TFX project and not just in a customer context (albeit they should've joined sooner). That's all I will say. Not because it's some super secret but because it is not set in stone and these things are fluid.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?





JamD said:


> The simple answer is that Pakistan is interested/involved in the TFX project and not just in a customer context (albeit they should've joined sooner). That's all I will say. Not because it's some super secret but because it is not set in stone and these things are fluid.


Just echoing @JamD, but it takes a few years to properly set up a fighter consortium and onboard new members. For example, the original JSF members didn't become members overnight, especially the first group after the U.S. initiated the project.

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## JamD

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?





JamD said:


> The simple answer is that Pakistan is interested/involved in the TFX project and not just in a customer context (albeit they should've joined sooner). That's all I will say. Not because it's some super secret but because it is not set in stone and these things are fluid.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Just echoing @JamD, but it takes a few years to properly set up a fighter consortium and onboard new members. For example, the original JSF members didn't become members overnight, especially the first group after the U.S. initiated the project.



Just to give the scale of involvement, I expect more Pakistanis to be working on the TFX by the end of this year than ever were working on Azm.

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## Tipu7

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?


We are. Bit late though. Possibly, we can observe the South Korean Indonesia KFX type relation in case of TFX (Turkey Pakistan).

Infact, for Pakistan, Turkey is enroute to become largest joint producer of military hardware.

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## Ali_Baba

India will be having lots of kittens if PAF does get the Kızılelma as it will be every effective in helping to take out the S400 and for also doing deep "surgical strikes" inside India ... 

it is the logical next step after PAF has inducted and operationalised the existing drones into their doctrine and the associated systems are integrated into Pakistans core backbone for C&C ..

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## araz

Ali_Baba said:


> India will be having lots of kittens if PAF does get the Kızılelma as it will be every effective in helping to take out the S400 and for also doing deep "surgical strikes" inside India ...
> 
> it is the logical next step after PAF has inducted and operationalised the existing drones into their doctrine and the associated systems are integrated into Pakistans core backbone for C&C ..


If PAF does acquire it, the capability should be kept closely under wraps as exposure will take out the element of surprise in any encounter.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> We are. Bit late though. Possibly, we can observe the South Korean Indonesia KFX type relation in case of TFX (Turkey Pakistan).
> 
> Infact, for Pakistan, Turkey is enroute to become largest joint producer of military hardware.


I bet the PAF will try its hand at buying KF-21s off-the-shelf. Unfortunately, it'd depend a lot on our ties with the U.S. in about 5-7 years, but for now, the KF-21 looks like a pretty enticing jet for what it is.


----------



## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I bet the PAF will try its hand at buying KF-21s off-the-shelf. Unfortunately, it'd depend a lot on our ties with the U.S. in about 5-7 years, but for now, the KF-21 looks like a pretty enticing jet for what it is.



If the China/India equation wasn't a factor I would have rated the possibly higher for us getting it, but with current geopolitical environment our chances are nil we have two options only China or Turkish project if it gets off the ground (but let's hope the main components aren't US).

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## waz

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?



Funds bro to be honest.


----------



## KaiserX

waz said:


> Funds bro to be honest.



Funds wont be a problem if we nationalize all army owned industries/land

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I bet the PAF will try its hand at buying KF-21s off-the-shelf. Unfortunately, it'd depend a lot on our ties with the U.S. in about 5-7 years, but for now, the KF-21 looks like a pretty enticing jet for what it is.


Provided IAF secures the MMRCA 2.0 (90 Rafales in total) PAF will have no choice but to procure stealth fighter in limited numbers to retain the 'edge'. I doubt U.S. will onwards allow transfer of any high tech U.S. origin hardware to Pakistan. In that case, I see J-35 as more considerable option as a stop gap measure (2025-27) till TFX (with reduced U.S. components) will become available.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

KaiserX said:


> Funds wont be a problem if we nationalize all army owned industries/land


Nationalization is what screwed our economy in the first place, taking over army-owned companies and putting them in the hands of civilians is going to do nothing but ruin them.

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## flameboard

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> No, bro, you obviously don't understand my point of view. I want to see the Made in Pakistan stamp on as much equipment as possible in the Turkish defense industry. This is not about procurement. Why can't you understand this? You have the industrial foundation to participate but you don't and I'm kindly asking for the reason behind this decision. Perhaps I'm overlooking something and that's why I'm asking.


Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country


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## Goritoes

If Turkey manage to build every essential part of the fighter jet in-home then PAF will most likely order it and join the program in way that few selected parts could be made in PAC Kamra.


----------



## Zarvan

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?


We are official partners in TFX project. Our Azm project is the TFX project. Watch this whole program. TAI official itself announcing it along with Pakistanis. 







JamD said:


> The simple answer is that Pakistan is interested/involved in the TFX project and not just in a customer context (albeit they should've joined sooner). That's all I will say. Not because it's some super secret but because it is not set in stone and these things are fluid.


Watch the above program. It's out in the open bhai. TAI guy himself set on a Pakistani television and broke this news.



Tipu7 said:


> We are. Bit late though. Possibly, we can observe the South Korean Indonesia KFX type relation in case of TFX (Turkey Pakistan).
> 
> Infact, for Pakistan, Turkey is enroute to become largest joint producer of military hardware.






This program tells us the answer I wonder why people don't remember this.


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## JamD

Zarvan said:


> Watch the above program. It's out in the open bhai. TAI guy himself set on a Pakistani television and broke this news.


Yes, we've all seen this program. As has been discussed to death on the forum and confirmed by Turkish insiders, Temel Kotil was being a salesman when he said those things. I will make it crystal clear for you. Azm is OFFICIALLY dead. It has not turned into TFX. Dead. With that being said, there is some Pakistani interest in TFX (obviously) and there is technical involvement (albeit one way only right now), which is likely to expand. But this is far from TFX being a joint program. Think along the lines of maybe a custom version for Pakistan. Maybe 5-10% technical input. This is understandable given how late we are half-hardheartedly getting on the program. Even now the PAF has NOT fully committed. It is still keeping its options open.

If anything it is TAI that is pushing the TFX to PAF and the PAF is going along for the ride.

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## Crystal-Clear

Most probably Trust issues.


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## James David

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> @Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others
> 
> May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?
> 
> People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.
> 
> Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.
> 
> A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.
> 
> There are other opportunities as well.
> 
> Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.
> 
> If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?
> 
> I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.
> 
> I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.
> 
> Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?


You don't have the money... so...


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## Tipu7

Apparently PAF is going to project the (P)TFX as joint Pak-Turk project in the disguise of Project Azm. Something same which we did in case of Jf-17.


JamD said:


> Yes, we've all seen this program. As has been discussed to death on the forum and confirmed by Turkish insiders, Temel Kotil was being a salesman when he said those things. I will make it crystal clear for you. Azm is OFFICIALLY dead. It has not turned into TFX. Dead. With that being said, there is some Pakistani interest in TFX (obviously) and there is technical involvement (albeit one way only right now), which is likely to expand. But this is far from TFX being a joint program. Think along the lines of maybe a custom version for Pakistan. Maybe 5-10% technical input. This is understandable given how late we are half-hardheartedly getting on the program. Even now the PAF has NOT fully committed. It is still keeping its options open.
> 
> If anything it is TAI that is pushing the TFX to PAF and the PAF is going along for the ride.

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## JamD

Tipu7 said:


> Apparently PAF is going to project the (P)TFX as joint Pak-Turk project in the disguise of Project Azm. Something same which we did in case of Jf-17.


Maybe and things point towards that. But I know of no such formal commitment from our side.

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> Yes, we've all seen this program. As has been discussed to death on the forum and confirmed by Turkish insiders, Temel Kotil was being a salesman when he said those things. I will make it crystal clear for you. Azm is OFFICIALLY dead. It has not turned into TFX. Dead. With that being said, there is some Pakistani interest in TFX (obviously) and there is technical involvement (albeit one way only right now), which is likely to expand. But this is far from TFX being a joint program. Think along the lines of maybe a custom version for Pakistan. Maybe 5-10% technical input. This is understandable given how late we are half-hardheartedly getting on the program. Even now the PAF has NOT fully committed. It is still keeping its options open.
> 
> If anything it is TAI that is pushing the TFX to PAF and the PAF is going along for the ride.


Will anything come out of other projects under AZM (UAV, Missiles/PGMs) or everything is dead?

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> Will anything come out of other projects under AZM (UAV, Missiles/PGMs) or everything is dead?


Depends on what PAF intends to do. All (most) of the programs are basically dead due to various reasons. So on the current course, nothing will come out of them.

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## Zarvan

JamD said:


> Yes, we've all seen this program. As has been discussed to death on the forum and confirmed by Turkish insiders, Temel Kotil was being a salesman when he said those things. I will make it crystal clear for you. Azm is OFFICIALLY dead. It has not turned into TFX. Dead. With that being said, there is some Pakistani interest in TFX (obviously) and there is technical involvement (albeit one way only right now), which is likely to expand. But this is far from TFX being a joint program. Think along the lines of maybe a custom version for Pakistan. Maybe 5-10% technical input. This is understandable given how late we are half-hardheartedly getting on the program. Even now the PAF has NOT fully committed. It is still keeping its options open.
> 
> If anything it is TAI that is pushing the TFX to PAF and the PAF is going along for the ride.


Our local AZM is dead and no we haven't shown interest in TFX. We have officially joined that project. I repeat we have joint the project.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Our local AZM is dead and no we haven't shown interest in TFX. We have officially joined that project. I repeat we have joint the project. Not shown interest. You don't sign whole agreement if you are keep your options open.


When did you see the contract?

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When did you see the contract?


I won't comment on that Sir.


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## JamD

Zarvan said:


> Our local AZM is dead and no we haven't shown interest in TFX. We have officially joined that project. I repeat we have joint the project.


Sir you can repeat as much as you want. I have seen no solid commitment on PAF's part. Current status is observe TFX. Like I said that it is likely that eventually PAF will join, but as of now, at least I don't know of any joining of project. I hope your source isn't that TV interview and something else.

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## Kedikesenfare2

JamD said:


> Sir you can repeat as much as you want. I have seen no solid commitment on PAF's part. Current status is observe TFX. Like I said that it is likely that eventually PAF will join, but as of now, at least I don't know of any joining of project. I hope your source isn't that TV interview and something else.


I've searched a little bit in the Turkish speaking part of the internet about this issue. There are people who are convinced that the number of nations willing to participate in the TFX project will dramatically increase once the prototype is revealed to the public? Do you share this opinion?


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## JamD

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> I've searched a little bit in the Turkish speaking part of the internet about this issue. There are people who are convinced that the number of nations willing to participate in the TFX project will dramatically increase once the prototype is revealed to the public? Do you share this opinion?


Dramatically no. Will increase yes. Pakistan is definitely one of the top contenders. TAI really wants PAF to choose the TFX.

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## merzifonlu

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project?


IMO Simply yes. In Pakistan's perspective, no domestic engine = no TFX fighter.

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## firohot4321

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> My assumptions:
> 
> Pak does the defense procurement and cooperation jobs without much fanfare and public knowledge for her finances, technological bases, external relations etc. are extremely opaque.
> Pak's explicit involvement would raise unnecessary eye brows in the Western capitals, especially DC.
> Pak has her own FGF project called AZM.
> Pak loves to maintain secrecy and produce surprises.
> Pak acts as a reaction to India's action.
> Etc.


I think Pakistan is connected with tfx program

But it's kept out of limelight

To avoid unwanted attention
Many news articles came of both countries co-op on advance aerospace programs

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## Readerdefence

merzifonlu said:


> IMO Simply yes. In Pakistan's perspective, no domestic engine = no TFX fighter.


Hi beside the engine issue if Indians are waiting for fifth generation Pakistan can wait too till TFX otherwise no choice but to for for J/31/35 as it’s not too far from operational point of view 
thank you

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## EternalMortal

KaiserX said:


> Funds wont be a problem if we nationalize all army owned industries/land



They’re technically already state owned


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## EternalMortal

Tipu7 said:


> Something same which we did in case of Jf-17



Personally, I wouldn’t mind that. We get workshare, gain experience, continuously upgrade it according to our needs & increase indigenisation like we did with jf17. Inshallah, by the time we need to move on to the next gen, our situation would have improved enough that we can actually do more from the start.


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## Hold the door

Even more than half of Turkey does not believe that this plane can be built. I totally understand pakistan's concerns.

Let's make our first flight with our domestic engine, then we'll talk again.

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## JamD

Hold the door said:


> Even more than half of Turkey does not believe that this plane can be built. I totally understand pakistan's concerns.
> 
> Let's make our first flight with our domestic engine, then we'll talk again.


I think the skepticism is warranted. This is no easy feat. IMHO if there is consistent drive to deliver (which there seems to be) some form of TFX will eventually cross the finish line. I don't the given timelines are realistic. But I think Turkiye certainly has a lot of the required inputs. This is the reason that Pakistan is betting on the TFX (among other things) because we see some promise. You're right, Pakistan's number 1 concern will be the domestic engine, which means Pakistan is willing to wait a lot for the freedom it would gain from a TFX with a local engine.

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## araz

Kedikesenfare2 said:


> I've searched a little bit in the Turkish speaking part of the internet about this issue. There are people who are convinced that the number of nations willing to participate in the TFX project will dramatically increase once the prototype is revealed to the public? Do you share this opinion?


This number WILL ONLY INCREASE when Turkey has an ITAR free engine for the project. The PAA has been stung badly by the T129 fiasco and does not want anything to do with a project without an engine( at least one which will not be compromised). So all this talk of participation in TFX project is hot wind till the engine comes about. Once the engine is unveiled and the Prototype comes out PAF will evaluate its options and join in. I think although I have no source to claim this , the Chinese are not going to let PAF have anything beyond depot level maintenance which is why PAF is coming of the idea of a Chinese offering. However, if the TFX get delayed PAF will have little option left but to procure a fifth generation offering from China(I think the window is between 2028-2035). Contrary to other opinions, my own humble opinion is that PAF will only procure one type of fifth generation aircraft. 
From a technological and strategic perspective it would be nice for PAF to have 2 offerings to negotiate the best deal with the Vendor and take some element of local production on as a money saving method. However, as mentioned before this option is very unlikely to come from China and more likely to come from Turkey.
A



JamD said:


> Dramatically no. Will increase yes. Pakistan is definitely one of the top contenders. TAI really wants PAF to choose the TFX.


Pak-Turkiye remain the most natural allies for so many reasons. However, this window needs pakistan to stabilize and grow its economy in this decade. Stagnancy will lead to Turkiye going so far forward the need for Pakistan may no longer be there.
A



JamD said:


> Dramatically no. Will increase yes. Pakistan is definitely one of the top contenders. TAI really wants PAF to choose the TFX.


Pak-Turkiye remain the most natural allies for so many reasons. However, this window needs pakistan to stabilize and grow its economy in this decade. Stagnancy will lead to Turkiye going so far forward the need for Pakistan may no longer be there.
A

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604305959911915520

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## Ali_Baba

CSAW said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604305959911915520



erm - Anyone know what CPU the mission computer for TFX is using ?

Some nice information on the F35 CPU processor..









High-Performance Integrated Core Processor (ICP)


High-performance computing and visualization platform




www.l3harris.com













Harris to Supply New F-35 Core Processor - Avionics International


The Lockheed Martin F-35 will run on a Harris-built integrated core processor (ICP) beginning in 2023, the two companies revealed Thursday. The new ICP, the “brains” of the advanced fighter, promises 25 times the processing power at one-fourth the cost, according to Harris, and is built on an...




www.aviationtoday.com

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## Path-Finder

Ali_Baba said:


> erm - Anyone know what CPU the mission computer for TFX is using ?
> 
> Some nice information on the F35 CPU processor..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High-Performance Integrated Core Processor (ICP)
> 
> 
> High-performance computing and visualization platform
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.l3harris.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harris to Supply New F-35 Core Processor - Avionics International
> 
> 
> The Lockheed Martin F-35 will run on a Harris-built integrated core processor (ICP) beginning in 2023, the two companies revealed Thursday. The new ICP, the “brains” of the advanced fighter, promises 25 times the processing power at one-fourth the cost, according to Harris, and is built on an...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aviationtoday.com


it must be a aselsan semiconductor.

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## That Guy

Just a reminder, TAI has already denied that there is any sort of collaboration or even talks between Pakistan and Turkey regarding the TF-X.

It was all a misunderstanding.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

JamD said:


> I think the skepticism is warranted. This is no easy feat. IMHO if there is consistent drive to deliver (which there seems to be) some form of TFX will eventually cross the finish line. I don't the given timelines are realistic. But I think Turkiye certainly has a lot of the required inputs. This is the reason that Pakistan is betting on the TFX (among other things) because we see some promise. You're right, Pakistan's number 1 concern will be the domestic engine, which means Pakistan is willing to wait a lot for the freedom it would gain from a TFX with a local engine.


According to the TEI CEO, initial fabrication of TEI TF-10000 (10K lb thrust) turbofan engine is about to be completed. After testing it to be OK, they'll proceed directly to the 35K lb one (F22 class) with the super cruise capability and a reduced IR signature. All the building blocks are being tested and readied to continuously build and update the "libraries of components" for the designers to "download and integrate" as per the specs of different types of turbo engines of all sorts (fighters, choppers, UAVs, ships, industries, mining etc.).....

The top Turkish defense industrial bosses want to emulate the "cold war era" mindset and speed of the US companies.....

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan made blunder by developing thunder without indigenous air to air missiles which would cost us little that Chinese PL 15 

Pakistan air force must sign a TOT with turkey for T 929 attack halos, KİZİLELMA UCAV and GOKTUG family of air to air missiles which replace AİM 120 And AİM 9 cheaply for our F 16 fleet as we already upgraded our f 16 with Turkish MLU these goktug air to air missiles easily work with those F 16 with turk software updates

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## Path-Finder

After reading this thread, I have to say this grounded in reality. What can Pakistan offer Turkey in the technical field? Turkey is a rising star in industrial defence and Pakistan sadly isn't. 

So Pakistan is merely an onlooker as rightly pointed out and mostly a consumer.

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## Fasbre2

Path-Finder said:


> After reading this thread, I have to say this grounded in reality. What can Pakistan offer Turkey in the technical field? Turkey is a rising star in industrial defence and Pakistan sadly isn't.
> 
> So Pakistan is merely an onlooker as rightly pointed out and mostly a consumer.


Concur, Pakistan has nothing to offer technically or financially to the program.. other than begging for discounted 5th gen equipment..

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## Edevelop

Fasbre2 said:


> Concur, Pakistan has nothing to offer technically or financially to the program.. other than begging for discounted 5th gen equipment..



Maybe Pakistan is a useful middleman for Turkiye to gain access or purchase some Chinese tech. Clearly Turkiye is still in NATO and any direct purchase from China would complicate things just as we have seen with the purchase of S-400 and amongst other things from Russia.

History says Pakistan has always found itself in the position from giving out nuclear program secrets to countries to secretly offering damaged goods for reverse engineering. For years the J-10 program had a lot of that unofficial Pakistani input too and maybe because of the F-16s they own and the experience of other fighter jets like Rafale and EFT from Middle Eastern exercises. Just saying...

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## CSAW

_The development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is the main goal of Pakistan’s ‘Project Azm’. _






_The Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for the fifth-generation fighter appear to have gone through several changes since the initial announcement of Project Azm in 2017.



_
"Turkish defense and government officials have held periodic talks with Pakistani counterparts—the last high-level discussion was in January—about developing and manufacturing military hardware with Pakistan, according to people from both countries who are familiar with the negotiations," _Bloomberg_ reported.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496478623121002497
"Turkey sees nuclear power Pakistan as a strategic ally and potential partner in building its Siper long-range missile-defense project and TF-X fighter jet," the report added.












https://www.tacticalreport.com/news/article/61145-egypt-sac-fc-31-procurement-and-tot-deal








-------------------------------------------------------------
"In terms of Project AZM, PAC revealed that the “project is being conceptualized and preliminary designs are ongoing.” In other words, the PAF has yet to finalize the design. This revelation is not surprising – for the PAF, the requirements and technologies that would go into the NGFA are fluid in nature, and subject to change over time…





Will Azm’s Prototype Fly in 2028?​It is highly unlikely that the first NGFA prototype will fly in 2028, especially when PAC has yet to complete the preliminary design phase of the aircraft. Moreover, several cycles of detailed design work remain, and each of those cycles will take at least two to three years to complete". QUWA

------------------------------------------------------

_"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.*

The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends."_




_"I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.





While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia.* We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.*"

Sohail Aman 2017 quoted on PDF_

------------------------------------------------------
*Turkey’s Fifth-Gen TF-X Fighter Jet Reaches Pakistan’s Defense Expo Months After Reports Of Joint Production...Read below*



















Turkey's Fifth-Gen TF-X Fighter Jet Reaches Pakistan's Defense Expo Months After Reports Of Joint Production


Turkey displayed a scale model of its fifth-generation fighter, codenamed as the TF-X at Pakistan's IDEAS expo 2022




eurasiantimes.com






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553997574075568129

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## Cookie Monster

Path-Finder said:


> After reading this thread, I have to say this grounded in reality. What can Pakistan offer Turkey in the technical field? Turkey is a rising star in industrial defence and Pakistan sadly isn't.
> 
> So Pakistan is merely an onlooker as rightly pointed out and mostly a consumer.


Pakistan could have joined the project and it would help Turkey share the cost and reduce the chances of bearing the loss alone in case if it failed. Just by that investment alone Pak could have owned a part of it even if not contributing much technologically...
..but that ship has sailed 😔

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## Horse_Rider

Fasbre2 said:


> Concur, Pakistan has nothing to offer technically or financially to the program.. other than begging for discounted 5th gen equipment..



That's where you don't understand the deep thought process that takes place inside the PAF. We are a partner alright!

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## SQ8

Horse_Rider said:


> That's where you don't understand the *deep thought *process that takes place inside the PAF. We are a partner alright!


Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it. 

Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.

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## Horse_Rider

Edevelop said:


> Maybe Pakistan is a useful middleman for Turkiye to gain access or purchase some Chinese tech. Clearly Turkiye is still in NATO and any direct purchase from China would complicate things just as we have seen with the purchase of S-400 and amongst other things from Russia.



Negative! China doesn't want to work on Turkiye's projects in any capacity, even integration of tech since it's NATO. Turkieye equally doesn't want to work with the Chinese as that would upset the West / EU + US, etc. Turkey has already realized the damage the S-400 saga did to itself. It's so bad that basic items such as upgrade kits for F-16's, for which Turkiye has built a whole manufacturing plant, aren't being provided. Turkish defense industry still uses a lot of tech from EU / US / Canada so they can't risk any of that.

Do I see Pakistan buying TFX and somehow integrating some Chinese weapons? May be but that would happen in Pakistan and probably by Pakistani or Turkish tech consultants.



SQ8 said:


> Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.
> 
> Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.



Canard based design.....what project are we talking about? The J-10C?

On the second, we can't "indigenously" build anything just yet. I've posted some detailed analysis on some threads. There is a model for maturity called CMM (capability maturity model), it calls for capability acquisition and mastering it and further enhancing it. WE have the JFT being built in house now over 60%+. Next logical step is to bring in J-10C and assemble it locally with limited ToT and be done with conventional Hi-Lo since the entire operation would become much cheaper to build and maintain / upgrade these jets. While this takes place, we work with the Turkish friends on TFX and acquire it's limited ToT to sustain it locally, know the tech and do integration ourselves. We won't need to local build it as the limited numbers won't make it feasible. But we can do a lot with respect to AZM. 

Second "arm" of AZM can become ToT / licensed production of KizilElma. That's where the true future is for 6th gen and beyond, Robotics!


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.
> 
> Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.


...and going that whole route instead of joining the TFX/MMU earlier on as an initial buyer and co-production partner. Sure, we don't have the technology base, but we could've helped with engineering services (which TAI is now leveraging directly). When the TFX/MMU was on the drawing board, we absolutely had more leverage to negotiate offsets, workshare, etc, etc. In fact, the biggest irony of missing the TFX/MMU train was that we could've begun nurturing a true aerospace production and development ecosystem via our academia and private sector.

But alas, incompetency, not understanding the reality (e.g., "wE MoRe AdaVAHNsed DaN TuRGhee"), and malicious intent torpedoed any chance of taking the most rational high-risk route (TFX/MMU). Instead, we took the most irrational high-risk route (AZM).

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## SQ8

Horse_Rider said:


> Negative! China doesn't want to work on Turkiye's projects in any capacity, even integration of tech since it's NATO. Turkieye equally doesn't want to work with the Chinese as that would upset the West / EU + US, etc. Turkey has already realized the damage the S-400 saga did to itself. It's so bad that basic items such as upgrade kits for F-16's, for which Turkiye has built a whole manufacturing plant, aren't being provided. Turkish defense industry still uses a lot of tech from EU / US / Canada so they can't risk any of that.
> 
> Do I see Pakistan buying TFX and somehow integrating some Chinese weapons? May be but that would happen in Pakistan and probably by Pakistani or Turkish tech consultants.
> 
> 
> 
> Canard based design.....what project are we talking about? The J-10C?
> 
> On the second, we can't "indigenously" build anything just yet. I've posted some detailed analysis on some threads. There is a model for maturity called CMM (capability maturity model), it calls for capability acquisition and mastering it and further enhancing it. WE have the JFT being built in house now over 60%+. Next logical step is to bring in J-10C and assemble it locally with limited ToT and be done with conventional Hi-Lo since the entire operation would become much cheaper to build and maintain / upgrade these jets. While this takes place, we work with the Turkish friends on TFX and acquire it's limited ToT to sustain it locally, know the tech and do integration ourselves. We won't need to local build it as the limited numbers won't make it feasible. But we can do a lot with respect to AZM.
> 
> Second "arm" of AZM can become ToT / licensed production of KizilElma. That's where the true future is for 6th gen and beyond, Robotics!


Your analysis is as naive as your knowledge of the program itself. The AZM has gone through multiple conceptual design and was settling for a version that resembled the YF-23(in layout of diamond wing and ruddervators) before another concept with canards was put on top due to “preference”.

Now the JFT has fulfilled its requirement for 150 units - the unit cost of JFT may be stated as $15 million but when you include the cost of setting up the production line, training and raw materials that cost has hit above. And that was still amortized cost over 160-175 builds. 

The PAF has fixed its needs for the J-10C at 60 units - of which half are already delivered. Yet your wisdom suggests that PAF spend not only the time and money to set up the additional rigs and all to set it up for 30 jets? That after the sunk costs into the Azm program whose only fruit is a plain jane MALE UaV which could be easily purchased off the shelf and maybe some progress in understanding (but not even close to producing) AESA radars and EW systems. 

These are major defense systems, not LU biscuits and even those require major investment if you want to upgrade from Sooper to Prince. 

As far as TFX goes, it’s too late to join in other than anything other than intent partner because you have nothing other than intent or maybe user experience to contribute.

And Robotics! Haha… how many years of education do you have?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Edevelop said:


> Maybe Pakistan is a useful middleman for Turkiye to gain access or purchase some Chinese tech. Clearly Turkiye is still in NATO and any direct purchase from China would complicate things just as we have seen with the purchase of S-400 and amongst other things from Russia.
> 
> History says Pakistan has always found itself in the position from giving out nuclear program secrets to countries to secretly offering damaged goods for reverse engineering. For years the J-10 program had a lot of that unofficial Pakistani input too and maybe because of the F-16s they own and the experience of other fighter jets like Rafale and EFT from Middle Eastern exercises. Just saying...


Pak loves to give "surprises" to the Hindutva India who can't "surprise" Pak! I am pretty sure it's all up to the Hindutva AMCA program! Now the ball is in the court of the West & Israil, who need to do the cost-benefit analysis: FGF in India to counter China, or no FGF in Pak.....

As for TFX, Turkey needs it like air and water.......

As for the utility of Pak for the Turkish military industrial complexes, money can't buy it! I won't be surprised if they leverage the Chinese IC fabrication, precision engineering, advanced materials sciences etc. facilities via Pak....


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## Horse_Rider

SQ8 said:


> Your analysis is as naive as your knowledge of the program itself. The AZM has gone through multiple conceptual design and was settling for a version that resembled the YF-23(in layout of diamond wing and ruddervators) before another concept with canards was put on top due to “preference”.
> 
> Now the JFT has fulfilled its requirement for 150 units - the unit cost of JFT may be stated as $15 million but when you include the cost of setting up the production line, training and raw materials that cost has hit above. And that was still amortized cost over 160-175 builds.
> 
> The PAF has fixed its needs for the J-10C at 60 units - of which half are already delivered. Yet your wisdom suggests that PAF spend not only the time and money to set up the additional rigs and all to set it up for 30 jets? That after the sunk costs into the Azm program whose only fruit is a plain jane MALE UaV which could be easily purchased off the shelf and maybe some progress in understanding (but not even close to producing) AESA radars and EW systems.
> 
> These are major defense systems, not LU biscuits and even those require major investment if you want to upgrade from Sooper to Prince.
> 
> As far as TFX goes, it’s too late to join in other than anything other than intent partner because you have nothing other than intent or maybe user experience to contribute.
> 
> And Robotics! Haha… how many years of education do you have?



That's an interesting range of comments without facts and from someone with two American flags! Did you hear this from air headquarters or is this your "personal" opinion that we have gone through many design phases and YF-23 like design was finalized? There is NO active AZM project right now! If you have proofs of a YF-23 like design , kindly share. I mean proofs, not just fanboy talk. 80% of this forum is filled with people who "talk" their way through discussions. Pakistan's heart was set from the beginning on J-31 or a Chinese stealth platform and then on TFX as TFX allows Pakistan to gain top notch Western tech.

A reminder about our capability: We don't produce JFT all the way, most critical components still come from China and have gotten very expensive as the higher end products and tech is being used since the block II (and retro upgrades done to block I too). We don't have the capability to manufacture composites yet, let alone a "diamond shape like YF-23". 

Also, JFT block II and III use very expensive composites, EW / Radars (AESA in block III), Per your comments, we are building JFT per average cost of $ 15 million, meaning JFT block II and III included, and we are selling it for $ 50 Mil a pop!! WOW! If the military industrial complex or any private businesses started to produce 300 TIMES profit on 1 jet, Pakistan would've been a Trillion dollar economy by selling only JFT's. But standard profits are usually 10-15% tops and there are variables in it too. We are no US to build 4500 F-16's and add FMS to make another 20% markup profit!. Average cost of JFT block III to us is well over $ 30 Mil.

On J-10C: Pakistan will initially induct somewhere between 72-90 J-10C's in batches. With it's capability unmatched to be the Hi of the PAF, more Mirage units will be replaced with J-10C's. Due to the current financial situation, it's all kept tight lipped not to allow India to spread global propaganda that how "financially distressed Pakistan buying billions of weapons to destroy poor little India"! Once our financial situation starts to improve, in the next 12-24 months, more orders of the J-10C will come out. 

TFX will come. Let's not discuss it for now as it's not even test flown yet. 2029-2030 is the year for it per the current plans.


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## Fasbre2

Horse_Rider said:


> That's an interesting range of comments without facts and from someone with two American flags! Did you hear this from air headquarters or is this your "personal" opinion that we have gone through many design phases and YF-23 like design was finalized? There is NO active AZM project right now! If you have proofs of a YF-23 like design , kindly share. I mean proofs, not just fanboy talk. 80% of this forum is filled with people who "talk" their way through discussions. Pakistan's heart was set from the beginning on J-31 or a Chinese stealth platform and then on TFX as TFX allows Pakistan to gain top notch Western tech.
> 
> A reminder about our capability: We don't produce JFT all the way, most critical components still come from China and have gotten very expensive as the higher end products and tech is being used since the block II (and retro upgrades done to block I too). We don't have the capability to manufacture composites yet, let alone a "diamond shape like YF-23".
> 
> Also, JFT block II and III use very expensive composites, EW / Radars (AESA in block III), Per your comments, we are building JFT per average cost of $ 15 million, meaning JFT block II and III included, and we are selling it for $ 50 Mil a pop!! WOW! If the military industrial complex or any private businesses started to produce 300 TIMES profit on 1 jet, Pakistan would've been a Trillion dollar economy by selling only JFT's. But standard profits are usually 10-15% tops and there are variables in it too. We are no US to build 4500 F-16's and add FMS to make another 20% markup profit!. Average cost of JFT block III to us is well over $ 30 Mil.
> 
> On J-10C: Pakistan will initially induct somewhere between 72-90 J-10C's in batches. With it's capability unmatched to be the Hi of the PAF, more Mirage units will be replaced with J-10C's. Due to the current financial situation, it's all kept tight lipped not to allow India to spread global propaganda that how "financially distressed Pakistan buying billions of weapons to destroy poor little India"! Once our financial situation starts to improve, in the next 12-24 months, more orders of the J-10C will come out.
> 
> TFX will come. Let's not discuss it for now as it's not even test flown yet. 2029-2030 is the year for it per the current plans.


Living in la la land.. technically turkiye is far advanced than us, financially as well. You are begging for 1 billion here and there to keep afloat and you are going to contribute financially??
Technically, what are you going to contribute. The only contribution you can make is your experience and input from existing platforms..nothing in terms of innovation or technology.. 
As suggested possibly a conduit for exchange of certain technologies from China..


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## python-000

CSAW said:


> _The development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is the main goal of Pakistan’s ‘Project Azm’. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for the fifth-generation fighter appear to have gone through several changes since the initial announcement of Project Azm in 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> _
> "Turkish defense and government officials have held periodic talks with Pakistani counterparts—the last high-level discussion was in January—about developing and manufacturing military hardware with Pakistan, according to people from both countries who are familiar with the negotiations," _Bloomberg_ reported.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496478623121002497
> "Turkey sees nuclear power Pakistan as a strategic ally and potential partner in building its Siper long-range missile-defense project and TF-X fighter jet," the report added.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 906834
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> https://www.tacticalreport.com/news/article/61145-egypt-sac-fc-31-procurement-and-tot-deal
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> "In terms of Project AZM, PAC revealed that the “project is being conceptualized and preliminary designs are ongoing.” In other words, the PAF has yet to finalize the design. This revelation is not surprising – for the PAF, the requirements and technologies that would go into the NGFA are fluid in nature, and subject to change over time…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will Azm’s Prototype Fly in 2028?​It is highly unlikely that the first NGFA prototype will fly in 2028, especially when PAC has yet to complete the preliminary design phase of the aircraft. Moreover, several cycles of detailed design work remain, and each of those cycles will take at least two to three years to complete". QUWA
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. *We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.*
> 
> The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia.* We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.*"
> 
> Sohail Aman 2017 quoted on PDF_
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> *Turkey’s Fifth-Gen TF-X Fighter Jet Reaches Pakistan’s Defense Expo Months After Reports Of Joint Production...Read below*
> 
> View attachment 906836
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> View attachment 906835
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> Turkey's Fifth-Gen TF-X Fighter Jet Reaches Pakistan's Defense Expo Months After Reports Of Joint Production
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> 
> Turkey displayed a scale model of its fifth-generation fighter, codenamed as the TF-X at Pakistan's IDEAS expo 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eurasiantimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553997574075568129


This is really a good news & best choice available if that news is true that PAF selected J-35 for it's next generation Fighter...


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## SQ8

Horse_Rider said:


> That's an interesting range of comments without facts and from someone with two American flags! Did you hear this from air headquarters or is this your "personal" opinion that we have gone through many design phases and YF-23 like design was finalized? There is NO active AZM project right now! If you have proofs of a YF-23 like design , kindly share. I mean proofs, not just fanboy talk. 80% of this forum is filled with people who "talk" their way through discussions. Pakistan's heart was set from the beginning on J-31 or a Chinese stealth platform and then on TFX as TFX allows Pakistan to gain top notch Western tech.
> 
> A reminder about our capability: We don't produce JFT all the way, most critical components still come from China and have gotten very expensive as the higher end products and tech is being used since the block II (and retro upgrades done to block I too). We don't have the capability to manufacture composites yet, let alone a "diamond shape like YF-23".
> 
> Also, JFT block II and III use very expensive composites, EW / Radars (AESA in block III), Per your comments, we are building JFT per average cost of $ 15 million, meaning JFT block II and III included, and we are selling it for $ 50 Mil a pop!! WOW! If the military industrial complex or any private businesses started to produce 300 TIMES profit on 1 jet, Pakistan would've been a Trillion dollar economy by selling only JFT's. But standard profits are usually 10-15% tops and there are variables in it too. We are no US to build 4500 F-16's and add FMS to make another 20% markup profit!. Average cost of JFT block III to us is well over $ 30 Mil.
> 
> On J-10C: Pakistan will initially induct somewhere between 72-90 J-10C's in batches. With it's capability unmatched to be the Hi of the PAF, more Mirage units will be replaced with J-10C's. Due to the current financial situation, it's all kept tight lipped not to allow India to spread global propaganda that how "financially distressed Pakistan buying billions of weapons to destroy poor little India"! Once our financial situation starts to improve, in the next 12-24 months, more orders of the J-10C will come out.
> 
> TFX will come. Let's not discuss it for now as it's not even test flown yet. 2029-2030 is the year for it per the current plans.


American flags … nawa aya hai soniya?
Zara background dekh lo before repeating like a stuck tape recorder.

Read up on the Azm thread and the design concepts before it was shelved. Look at the videos posted directly from PAC. We already discussed there is no moving forward on the program due to the reasons you mentioned and others so exactly what is the point of posting the same thing?

Share proofs?
Pakistan was aware of J-31 since more than a decade - even the J-20, go look up my posts from 2011 where I mentioned 3 designs and then the Chinese finally broke silence on the alternative design THIS year. As if AHQ will post proofs for you. Your block-Is had mfds shut off mid flight leaving the pilot helpless - go find the proof for it.
As for the Jf-17 - where are you throwing out $50 million from or even answering what question?
I mentioned cost amortization and suddenly US profits come into play?
And yet all you had to do was simply admit you understood the actual cost of the aircraft is much higher due to the production line and training adding onto the unit cost as well.

As for J-10C, what exactly have you added to what I stated? The requirement was for 60 jets - half of which are delivered. If financing was of no issue they could place an order upto a 100 because those poor mirages have to retire someday and the oldest F-16s are showing cracks. Each J-10C cost Pakistan upwards of $50 million - now add the cost of setting up a production line to that, training the workers on that line and so on,
So you don’t see a cost reduction until the 80th jet - and for what? You aren’t exporting - heck you’ve barely sold 19 JF-17s which your planners were boasting to sell hundreds of like the Mig-21.

PAF will get a 5th gen and it may likely be a Chinese jet because no one else will finance it for you - but other than having a rebuild factory it makes absolutely no sense to start building J-10s.

Also, you remain in the category of fanboys.,,

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## JamD

@SQ8 is absolutely right about that canard story. I have told this story elsewhere and have confirmed it from not one but two people directly involved.

On topic: the tweets about TFX/MMU with #Azm are especially depressing and pathetic. The delusions of grandeur are mind boggling. Fazool main fix horahay hain lol.

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## Bilal.

SQ8 said:


> Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.

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## Horse_Rider

Fasbre2 said:


> Living in la la land.. technically turkiye is far advanced than us, financially as well. You are begging for 1 billion here and there to keep afloat and you are going to contribute financially??
> Technically, what are you going to contribute. The only contribution you can make is your experience and input from existing platforms..nothing in terms of innovation or technology..
> As suggested possibly a conduit for exchange of certain technologies from China..



Another one speaks up with two British flags!   I guess we now have brown, "wane be White foreigners" running our defense acquisitions!

I'd debate on this subject with a Pakistani person who knows what's going on in our defense circles! There is no need to argue with "hear say".


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## Horse_Rider

SQ8 said:


> American flags … nawa aya hai soniya?
> Zara background dekh lo before repeating like a stuck tape recorder.
> 
> Read up on the Azm thread and the design concepts before it was shelved. Look at the videos posted directly from PAC. We already discussed there is no moving forward on the program due to the reasons you mentioned and others so exactly what is the point of posting the same thing?
> 
> Share proofs?
> Pakistan was aware of J-31 since more than a decade - even the J-20, go look up my posts from 2011 where I mentioned 3 designs and then the Chinese finally broke silence on the alternative design THIS year. As if AHQ will post proofs for you. Your block-Is had mfds shut off mid flight leaving the pilot helpless - go find the proof for it.
> As for the Jf-17 - where are you throwing out $50 million from or even answering what question?
> I mentioned cost amortization and suddenly US profits come into play?
> And yet all you had to do was simply admit you understood the actual cost of the aircraft is much higher due to the production line and training adding onto the unit cost as well.
> 
> As for J-10C, what exactly have you added to what I stated? The requirement was for 60 jets - half of which are delivered. If financing was of no issue they could place an order upto a 100 because those poor mirages have to retire someday and the oldest F-16s are showing cracks. Each J-10C cost Pakistan upwards of $50 million - now add the cost of setting up a production line to that, training the workers on that line and so on,
> So you don’t see a cost reduction until the 80th jet - and for what? You aren’t exporting - heck you’ve barely sold 19 JF-17s which your planners were boasting to sell hundreds of like the Mig-21.
> 
> PAF will get a 5th gen and it may likely be a Chinese jet because no one else will finance it for you - but other than having a rebuild factory it makes absolutely no sense to start building J-10s.
> 
> Also, you remain in the category of fanboys.,,



Now you just went in circles and mixed my posts and statements with yours. Nawa to bilkul nahin hon nor do I want to flash my existence on a web forum as if being a member in 2011 brought the cricket world cup home! A few workshops done to "create a mythical design" of a 5th gen jet doesn't mean we had one or we could remotely build one. We didn't even have a win tunnel to test a diecast (Iron) model let alone a design for 5th gen fighter  . I'm surprised you claim to know so much and you don't know our capability or lack of it back then? Paper design sessions and workshops happen a lot, nothing really comes out of these. Definitely not a 5th gen platform. I feel stupid writing about this, this idea is that dumb and that also back in 2000-2010! That's "Azm design" issue. I hope it's settled.

We've known about J-XX (without specific naming conventions that existed) back in 1998-199 when JFT was being setup. Obviously, we thought if Chinese equipment comes closer to the Western, we'd buy. In fact, we waited about a decade on J-10C (when J-10A was being offered to us in Musharraf sb's time). I'd stop here.

I didn't bring in "American profits" as a comparison. I educated you how the US can MAKE 30-40% on each defense article's sale and we have nothing to compare to them with. This was an explanation to your GIGANTIC false claim that JFT costs average $ 15 million a piece! On us selling it for $ 50 million, kindly find some credible place about our price quotations to Argentina and instead of arguing, realize you are not current on stuff.

We are an official partner in TFX. That's what AZM will now include. J-31 isn't in the picture right now more than "just interest". In prior two ACM's time, J-31 had more of a role in consideration but TFX took it away and seems like the way forward. Like anything, it can also change with the new ACM coming in or a new government.


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## Bleek

SQ8 said:


> Your analysis is as naive as your knowledge of the program itself. The AZM has gone through multiple conceptual design and was settling for a version that resembled the YF-23(in layout of diamond wing and ruddervators) before another concept with canards was put on top due to “preference”.


Can you elaborate on "preference"? Why were they so insistent on canards, and who?

It seems odd. Why is every institution in Pakistan a total structural mess? What went wrong?


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## Horse_Rider

Bleek said:


> Can you elaborate on "preference"? Why were they so insistent on canards, and who?
> 
> It seems odd. Why is every institution in Pakistan a total structural mess? What went wrong?



There is no "structural mess" anywhere. The internet warriors are everywhere it seems and not one of you is on the ground or in the air trying to lose blood for Pakistan. A strategic forum has been turned into a political sh*it shoot on military.

The defenders of Pakistan know what they need, how and when. I'd "love" to see the story abut "canards". He keeps saying it but doesn't answer every time I ask!


----------



## Bleek

JamD said:


> @SQ8 is absolutely right about that canard story. I have told this story elsewhere and have confirmed it from not one but two people directly involved.
> 
> On topic: the tweets about TFX/MMU with #Azm are especially depressing and pathetic. The delusions of grandeur are mind boggling. Fazool main fix horahay hain lol.


Can mods actually actually do something about the second part?

I don't know why people are allowed to post their fantasy stories that are void of any reality and ruin the forum.

They keep posting that same clip again and again and claiming the TFX is a joint program with Pakistan...



Horse_Rider said:


> There is no "structural mess" anywhere. The internet warriors are everywhere it seems and not one of you is on the ground or in the air trying to lose blood for Pakistan. A strategic forum has been turned into a political sh*it shoot on military.
> 
> The defenders of Pakistan know what they need, how and when. I'd "love" to see the story abut "canards". He keeps saying it but doesn't answer every time I ask!


Both those members are credible and actually have worked closely with people involved and are in contact with those currently involved, or were involved.

So their words hold more weight than yours.

*This forum is not to blindly praise and cheerlead "the defenders of Pakistan" everywhere, healthy criticism is good, you'd rather get a reality check when you have the chance to fix things rather than when it's way too late.*


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## lightning F57

IMO Pak has 3 options it can take going down the 5th gen route, all involve leveraging other programmes. 

1) Join TXF in any capacity possible, even if its providing some funds and technical assistance where possible to share the cost and risk burden with Turkiye.
2) Work with China to tailor the Snow owl to PAF needs
3) Join the joint Indo/S korean FX programme

The latter 2 are in much more advance stages, what feels a given right now is Pak can not do something alone.


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## Indos

lightning F57 said:


> The latter 2 are in much more advance stages, what feels a given right now is Pak can not do something alone.



Not only Pakistan, even European countries + Japan are joining forces

Each fighter program has 3 countries joining force

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## Edevelop

Horse_Rider said:


> Negative! China doesn't want to work on Turkiye's projects in any capacity, even integration of tech since it's NATO. Turkieye equally doesn't want to work with the Chinese as that would upset the West / EU + US, etc. Turkey has already realized the damage the S-400 saga did to itself. It's so bad that basic items such as upgrade kits for F-16's, for which Turkiye has built a whole manufacturing plant, aren't being provided. Turkish defense industry still uses a lot of tech from EU / US / Canada so they can't risk any of that.


Well the whole world knows Turkiye's heart is not in NATO anymore. The relations are sour as the current regime is not the secular government whom Europeans and Americans had once total control over. IMO the Americans planned to kick Turkiye out of the F-35 program regardless and S-400 was that perfect excuse they were looking for. As long as AKP is in power, Turkiye will view NATO from the lens of politics. The country's unique geographical location i.e. close proximity to Russia and Ukraine and neighbouring E.U. puts them in driver's seat. They can flex their muscle whenever they want i.e. decide who can join and not join the league notwithstanding what other members want. And while being a member of NATO, they are trying to become a member of SCO as well, which is China's league. So obviously something is cooking here.

As far as Turkiye's defence industry is concerned, obviously it is miles ahead of Pakistan. Whether they like NATO or not, they did indeed gain valuable technology for decades and unlike Pakistan, they have a solid R&D base and you can see how many indigenous projects are going on simultaneously in the country. Many years ago I remember Canada blocked the sale of cameras for their drones, however, today, that situation has changed.

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## Fasbre2

Horse_Rider said:


> Another one speaks up with two British flags!   I guess we now have brown, "wane be White foreigners" running our defense acquisitions!
> 
> I'd debate on this subject with a Pakistani person who knows what's going on in our defense circles! There is no need to argue with "hear say".


Why don’t you go ask your uncle Bajwa or his majesty (I need a red carpet reception) Air Force chief.. plonker with a capital P… 
Insulting the very people who your economy is floating on…


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## Horse_Rider

Fasbre2 said:


> Why don’t you go ask your uncle Bajwa or his majesty (I need a red carpet reception) Air Force chief.. plonker with a capital P…
> Insulting the very people who your economy is floating on…



It's very common for this behavior to show up due to not having real answers and proper operational understanding of the subject. That's why I said no further discussion.


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## Horse_Rider

Edevelop said:


> Well the whole world knows Turkiye's heart is not in NATO anymore. The relations are sour as the current regime is not the secular government whom Europeans and Americans had once total control over. IMO the Americans planned to kick Turkiye out of the F-35 program regardless and S-400 was that perfect excuse they were looking for. As long as AKP is in power, Turkiye will view NATO from the lens of politics. The country's unique geographical location i.e. close proximity to Russia and Ukraine and neighbouring E.U. puts them in driver's seat. They can flex their muscle whenever they want i.e. decide who can join and not join the league notwithstanding what other members want. And while being a member of NATO, they are trying to become a member of SCO as well, which is China's league. So obviously something is cooking here.
> 
> As far as Turkiye's defence industry is concerned, obviously it is miles ahead of Pakistan. Whether they like NATO or not, they did indeed gain valuable technology for decades and unlike Pakistan, they have a solid R&D base and you can see how many indigenous projects are going on simultaneously in the country. Many years ago I remember Canada blocked the sale of cameras for their drones, however, today, that situation has changed.



You bring up some good points but do know Turkey will never leave NATO. Do they have disagreements? Yes, and that's the case between Germany, US, France, Italy, etc, also. But the leadership in Turkiye knows it's in their absolutely critical interest to never leave NATO. In fact, being in NATO gives them much stronger voice on the world stage, even Saudia despite having more $$ and power, doesn't have. Turkey also benefits greatly economically and defense wise also. SCO will only happen if other NATO countries won't object to it. 

Turkiye's defense industry is West based so that's why Pakistan is wanting to essentially either acquire or be a part of various projects where they can allow this to happen.


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## CSAW

Its interesting to note that instead of discussing potential options / way forward for Azm, considering indigenous pulling off such a mammoth task / project on our own was NOT on cards, the thread seems to be going towards undue criticism of members hurled on each other .

Going back to the topic and scenario :

If Indian AF goes on and inducts or pulls off a VLO Platform PAF only has 02 options to align as buying partner:
* 
Turkey MMU
or
China J-35 Land version*

as likely potential candidates.

Like J-10 saga which took 2 decades to mature until Rafale came into subcontinent and F-16 Block 70s were not available more due to Geo Politics.

_Dwindling Economy and funds , Lack of Aviation industry privatization, Materials & other sciences Plus Testing R&D Facilities not properly developed - a number of factors have effected the outcome which is NOT ideal ...

----------------------------------------------------------_

Neither one becomes a cheerleader by acknowledging what has been achieved by our Air Arm to stay competitive OR get the Cutting edge vs Indian AF

Nor one has to prove by posting V card showing the direct exposure of working with PAC / PAF to comment the views ,

People living abroad Do Not need any 'certification of Loyalty'. Similarly those back home may have an a better pulse of whats happening on the ground . Perfectly Possible & acceptable.

Patience is a virtue fast disappearing.

Thanks

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## Path-Finder

SQ8 said:


> Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.
> 
> Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.





JamD said:


> @SQ8 is absolutely right about that canard story. I have told this story elsewhere and have confirmed it from not one but two people directly involved.


If this is the thinking in PAF 👆 👆 👆 then Pakistan is doing the right thing, by keeping out of the project. Since there really isnt anything to offer from Pakistani side technically. Its best that Turkey does the actual leg work then PAF can request its own tailored product.

After the success of Kizilelma TFX isn't so far fetched.


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## Horse_Rider

CSAW said:


> Its interesting to note that instead of discussing potential options / way forward for Azm, considering indigenous pulling off such a mammoth task / project on our own was NOT on cards, the thread seems to be going towards undue criticism of members hurled on each other .
> 
> Going back to the topic and scenario :
> 
> If IAF goes on and inducts or pulls off a VLO Platform PAF only has 02 options to align as buying partner:
> 
> Turkey MMU
> or
> China J-35 Land version
> 
> as likely potential candidates.
> 
> Like J-10 saga which took 2 decades to mature until Rafale came into subcontinent and F-16 Block 70s were not available more due to Geo Politics.
> 
> Dwindling Economy and funds , Lack of Aviation industry privatization, Materials & other sciences Plus Testing R&D Facilities not properly developed - a number of factors have effected the outcome.
> 
> Neither one becomes a cheerleader by acknowledging what has been achieved by our Air Arm to stay competitive OR get the Cutting edge vs IAF
> 
> Nor one has to prove by posting V card showing the direct exposure of working with APC / PAF to comment the views ,
> 
> People living abroad donot need any certification of Loyalty. Similarly those back home may have an a better pulse of whats happening on the ground . Perfectly acceptable.
> 
> Patience is a virtue fast disappearing.
> 
> Thanks



Very well balanced post. Totally agreed, it comes down to two platforms. This time it won't be a repeat of the J-10 saga, our planners are on top if it. There is more to that situation than people know. Musharaf sb had sort of put us behind "truck lights" and many don't know this story, nor required here.

From an AZM's standpoint, it currently seems as the TFX and there have been discussions with Turkiye that already took place. To cover many other posts, we won't be 'just" using the "finished product". Let's stop at this and allow things to work out and our economy to recover starting Feb 2023. Patience is a virtue (thank you for reminding us).

India has acquired MQ-9B production line locally. Sooner or later, they will be offered either F-35 or some other flavor of similar tech and will acquire more medium platforms. It's critical that Pakistan with it's limited financial resources starts to use it's massive engineering - tech talent and starts to assemble some stuff locally, build industry and save $$. This would be furthering the center of excellence already built for the JFT to go towards building industry. I believe we are headed in that direction but it needs an overdrive approach due to geopolitical situation and our neighbors acquisitions.

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## lightning F57

CSAW said:


> Its interesting to note that instead of discussing potential options / way forward for Azm, considering indigenous pulling off such a mammoth task / project on our own was NOT on cards, the thread seems to be going towards undue criticism of members hurled on each other .
> 
> Going back to the topic and scenario :
> 
> If Indian AF goes on and inducts or pulls off a VLO Platform PAF only has 02 options to align as buying partner:
> *
> Turkey MMU
> or
> China J-35 Land version*
> 
> as likely potential candidates.
> 
> Like J-10 saga which took 2 decades to mature until Rafale came into subcontinent and F-16 Block 70s were not available more due to Geo Politics.
> 
> _Dwindling Economy and funds , Lack of Aviation industry privatization, Materials & other sciences Plus Testing R&D Facilities not properly developed - a number of factors have effected the outcome which is NOT ideal ...
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------_
> 
> Neither one becomes a cheerleader by acknowledging what has been achieved by our Air Arm to stay competitive OR get the Cutting edge vs Indian AF
> 
> Nor one has to prove by posting V card showing the direct exposure of working with PAC / PAF to comment the views ,
> 
> People living abroad Do Not need any 'certification of Loyalty'. Similarly those back home may have an a better pulse of whats happening on the ground . Perfectly Possible & acceptable.
> 
> Patience is a virtue fast disappearing.
> 
> Thanks


What about the Indo/S Korean FX venture?


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## CSAW

lightning F57 said:


> What about the Indo/S Korean FX venture?


_In my very humble opinion 

PAF would need to have some sort of 'financial arrangement' linked with Azm going forward. Which doesn't make Korean platform a viable option. Plus linking to existing Assets may be another point of choice. 
I may be wrong as i have been many times. Still Learning the trade.._

Things change in Geo Politics and economy - One can list Su 57 Russia or some would say scale down J-20 as an option

_but 'Likely candidates' to pull it off are China J-35 / 31 & Turkey MMU. Both options come with likely financing options and Loyal Wingman under development. Both options we can depend upon supplies during conflict with arch rivals._

[PS : I don't have any direct source for this claim - Just reading the situation ...!]

_"Any strings attached " or "Being Sanctions prone " OR "Non Accessible source codes" for future PAF platforms should be a big NO such as Licenses for engine, BVR capability or SEAD Capability linked to political arrangements._

Interesting to see the gap between USA / West vs Turkey & China *narrow down* in my life time ...

[AESA Radar as a case in point]

since i saw Delta French beauty Mirages Rebuild in

Pakistan

or WVR Kings F-16As coming to Pakistan decades ago -

Yet the High tech or critical engineering prime technology such as High Performance High MTBF Engine etc STILL being a problematic area Achilles heel.

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## SQ8

Horse_Rider said:


> Now you just went in circles and mixed my posts and statements with yours. Nawa to bilkul nahin hon nor do I want to flash my existence on a web forum as if being a member in 2011 brought the cricket world cup home! A few workshops done to "create a mythical design" of a 5th gen jet doesn't mean we had one or we could remotely build one. We didn't even have a win tunnel to test a diecast (Iron) model let alone a design for 5th gen fighter  . I'm surprised you claim to know so much and you don't know our capability or lack of it back then? Paper design sessions and workshops happen a lot, nothing really comes out of these. Definitely not a 5th gen platform. I feel stupid writing about this, this idea is that dumb and that also back in 2000-2010! That's "Azm design" issue. I hope it's settled.
> 
> We've known about J-XX (without specific naming conventions that existed) back in 1998-199 when JFT was being setup. Obviously, we thought if Chinese equipment comes closer to the Western, we'd buy. In fact, we waited about a decade on J-10C (when J-10A was being offered to us in Musharraf sb's time). I'd stop here.
> 
> I didn't bring in "American profits" as a comparison. I educated you how the US can MAKE 30-40% on each defense article's sale and we have nothing to compare to them with. This was an explanation to your GIGANTIC false claim that JFT costs average $ 15 million a piece! On us selling it for $ 50 million, kindly find some credible place about our price quotations to Argentina and instead of arguing, realize you are not current on stuff.
> 
> We are an official partner in TFX. That's what AZM will now include. J-31 isn't in the picture right now more than "just interest". In prior two ACM's time, J-31 had more of a role in consideration but TFX took it away and seems like the way forward. Like anything, it can also change with the new ACM coming in or a new government.


It seems you are purposely obfuscating your arguments in trying to pass yourself off as correct by taking what I am stating and then passing it off as some revelation on your end?
My credibility is rarely questioned here nor do I make fantastic claims that aren’t corroborated - and if they don’t turn out to be correct, I learnt a long time ago that being able to accept I am wrong is a positive aspect of a personality.

There is nothing in your post I have already not stated yet you are trying to just get “I am right” for your own satisfaction and getting cheeky on low ball comments. I am talking about the J-10 unit price and you’re purposely mixing it with JF-17 and Argentina so clearly there are comprehension issues.

Lets agree to disagree and not waste time on who is what - you have added to what I already know and it is possible it is obsolete knowledge but then there are others here who are current.



Path-Finder said:


> If this is the thinking in PAF 👆 👆 👆 then Pakistan is doing the right thing, by keeping out of the project. Since there really isnt anything to offer from Pakistani side technically. Its best that Turkey does the actual leg work then PAF can request its own tailored product.
> 
> After the success of Kizilelma TFX isn't so far fetched.


The Navy has the best policy in this regard - they only go indigenous when there are no other alternatives available to meet the requirements because they understand their budget. They aim for ToT and evolution rather than revolution.

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## Horse_Rider

SQ8 said:


> It seems you are purposely obfuscating your arguments in trying to pass yourself off as correct by taking what I am stating and then passing it off as some revelation on your end?
> My credibility is rarely questioned here nor do I make fantastic claims that aren’t corroborated - and if they don’t turn out to be correct, I learnt a long time ago that being able to accept I am wrong is a positive aspect of a personality.
> 
> There is nothing in your post I have already not stated yet you are trying to just get “I am right” for your own satisfaction and getting cheeky on low ball comments. I am talking about the J-10 unit price and you’re purposely mixing it with JF-17 and Argentina so clearly there are comprehension issues.
> 
> Lets agree to disagree and not waste time on who is what - you have added to what I already know and it is possible it is obsolete knowledge but then there are others here who are current.
> 
> 
> The Navy has the best policy in this regard - they only go indigenous when there are no other alternatives available to meet the requirements because they understand their budget. They aim for ToT and evolution rather than revolution.



See your post below and the details about the JFT. You were suggesting the cost of JFT was $ 15 Mil and that estimated for 160-175 builds and that some cost has gone up. So let's pretend that we add $ 5 Mil to that "some cost have gone up" that you were referring to. Even at taking your $ 20Mil per plane is FAR OFF the map for costs especially Block II and III! Not counting or adding upgrade cost of JF-17A.

I don't get into useless arguments as it's a waste of everyone's time. Nor am I here to "share and be right". I know what I know and I share that. If you go back to my first post on J-10C and the JFT, you'll find the consistency in everything. I don't change per your or someone else's opinions or posts as my statements are purely mine based on my experience and knowledge. What is surprising is a person with your background to be going nuts on anti-military threads. I'm sure it seems that you've had difference of opinion but that's still an institute we respect deeply. But that's a separate topic so we don't need to derail the thread here.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SQ8 said:
Your analysis is as naive as your knowledge of the program itself. The AZM has gone through multiple conceptual design and was settling for a version that resembled the YF-23(in layout of diamond wing and ruddervators) before another concept with canards was put on top due to “preference”.

*Now the JFT has fulfilled its requirement for 150 units - the unit cost of JFT may be stated as $15 million but when you include the cost of setting up the production line, training and raw materials that cost has hit above. And that was still amortized cost over 160-175 builds.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


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## Edevelop

Horse_Rider said:


> You bring up some good points but do know Turkey will never leave NATO. Do they have disagreements? Yes, and that's the case between Germany, US, France, Italy, etc, also. But the leadership in Turkiye knows it's in their absolutely critical interest to never leave NATO. In fact, being in NATO gives them much stronger voice on the world stage, even Saudia despite having more $$ and power, doesn't have. Turkey also benefits greatly economically and defense wise also. SCO will only happen if other NATO countries won't object to it.
> 
> Turkiye's defense industry is West based so that's why Pakistan is wanting to essentially either acquire or be a part of various projects where they can allow this to happen.



Fair enough. They do want to sail on two boats. It’s in their benefit

Pakistan’s access and only hope of acquiring western tech will come from Turkiye and Italy. Both countries have solid relations and historic ties with Pakistan


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## Horse_Rider

Edevelop said:


> Fair enough. They do want to sail on two boats. It’s in their benefit
> 
> Pakistan’s access and only hope of acquiring western tech will come from Turkiye and Italy. Both countries have solid relations and historic ties with Pakistan



You are right. But Italy won't sell Pakistan cutting edge stuff. Turkiye would, especially if we were to partner like we did with the TFX. It doesn't hurt to buy Akinci and KizilEma in the future with local assembly or license production options. The drones are easier to make than a fighter jet. Plus these weapon systems will serve the PAF for long term and if the expected numbers make sense and a feasibility supports it, I am all for training some of our 50,000 tech / cs / engineering grads and put them to work and save $$. Our future is linked with technology related growth since we have the talent.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The PAF royally bungled its NGFA plans by basically not taking them seriously.

AHQ never took Turkey's TFX invite seriously (and heck, I'd bet they didn't take the TFX itself seriously until now). And AHQ threw the AZM bone to some internal group to humour them. We also have a camp that's of the belief, "well, we don't want to introduce an NGFA to the region because that'll push India to add its own NGFA, so, let's not focus on that right now."

Strategically, the most rational route was to:

1. Pursue the J-10CE as the next mainstay fighter. Buy it in incremental batches through the rest of this decade. I think (funding problems notwithstanding) this has been the plan since around 2017-2018 (and accelerated after 2019).

2. Join an NGFA program -- be it Turkey or China -- as a consortium partner. We had our shot to negotiate a relatively good deal back in 2016 when Turkey invited us to join the TFX. Heck, we could've done the same thing with the AVIC FC-31 in 2012. In either case, we could've got investment, offsets, and serious workshare which would've truly taken our academia and industry to the next level. Now, we are stuck on the 'quasi-partner, mostly a customer' category for both TFX/MMU and J-35/J-21.

On the right course of action, the PAF would focus on inducting J-10CEs until the NGFA (TFX or J-35) comes online. The latter would be a mid-2030s type of thing, and all procurement effort would focus on the NGFA (to replace the F-16A/Bs).

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## Edevelop

Horse_Rider said:


> You are right. But Italy won't sell Pakistan cutting edge stuff. Turkiye would, especially if we were to partner like we did with the TFX. It doesn't hurt to buy Akinci and KizilEma in the future with local assembly or license production options. The drones are easier to make than a fighter jet. Plus these weapon systems will serve the PAF for long term and if the expected numbers make sense and a feasibility supports it, I am all for training some of our 50,000 tech / cs / engineering grads and put them to work and save $$. Our future is linked with technology related growth since we have the talent.



Turkiye is obvious preference number 1 but reason why I brought up Italy as well is because we are their 2nd biggest arms importer and they did offer us AESA radars for JF-17 and lots of other stuff. Also important to note, Italy is at odds with India due to various legal cases involving military and within Europe, France and Italy, though both members of the EU, don’t really get along and the reasons are historical in nature due to territorial disputes and competing colonial powers. Naturally if France is going to sell and favour India, Italy will do to Pakistan.


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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF royally bungled its NGFA plans by basically not taking them seriously.
> 
> AHQ never took Turkey's TFX invite seriously (and heck, I'd bet they didn't take the TFX itself seriously until now). And AHQ threw the AZM bone to some internal group to humour them. We also have a camp that's of the belief, *"well, we don't want to introduce an NGFA to the region because that'll push India to add its own NGFA, so, let's not focus on that right now."*



The bold part is that I've encountered this situation many times with our armed forces; please explain to me the logic behind this all. It's like the US saying let's not introduce stealth fighters because the Chinese will also want one. The purpose of armed forces isn't just to maintain parity of arms but to excel and over-power the opponent. Indeed, what will you do now if the conflict breaks out and stealth air-craft could've given you the edge you need to take down a larger opponent?

PA, PAF, and PN have been engaged in pure neglect of duty.


----------



## Horse_Rider

Edevelop said:


> Turkiye is obvious preference number 1 but reason why I brought up Italy as well is because we are their 2nd biggest arms importer and they did offer us AESA radars for JF-17 and lots of other stuff. Also important to note, Italy is at odds with India due to various legal cases involving military and within Europe, France and Italy, though both members of the EU, don’t really get along and the reasons are historical in nature due to territorial disputes and competing colonial powers. Naturally if France is going to sell and favour India, Italy will do to Pakistan.



To be frank, with India's buying power, no country is against them. Everything is a business and no one wants to say NO to a 3rd or 4th largest economy. Italy doesn't have anything real to offer to India so they'd sell the little stuff to us. Obviously, that AESA radars (Vixen I believe) was a big deal to us but the Chinese came along and told us they were working on miniaturizing J-20's tech for J-10C so we stopped and utilized that same principle in our JFT's. But beyond that, Italy doesn't produce top notch jets. I think we've acquired helos from them also. 

France on the other hand produces top line jets, missiles, ships, and submarines, so that's why India goes to France to keep a healthy chunk in it's inventory to keep the suppliers diversified (Russia, France and US are top 3 supplies for India). But the smart thing is, one supplier acting out, won't hurt the Indian military's operations as they'll use another one's equipment. You pay cash, the French will sell you anything.


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## Horse_Rider

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF royally bungled its NGFA plans by basically not taking them seriously.
> 
> AHQ never took Turkey's TFX invite seriously (and heck, I'd bet they didn't take the TFX itself seriously until now). And AHQ threw the AZM bone to some internal group to humour them. We also have a camp that's of the belief, "well, we don't want to introduce an NGFA to the region because that'll push India to add its own NGFA, so, let's not focus on that right now."
> 
> Strategically, the most rational route was to:
> 
> 1. Pursue the J-10CE as the next mainstay fighter. Buy it in incremental batches through the rest of this decade. I think (funding problems notwithstanding) this has been the plan since around 2017-2018 (and accelerated after 2019).
> 
> 2. Join an NGFA program -- be it Turkey or China -- as a consortium partner. We had our shot to negotiate a relatively good deal back in 2016 when Turkey invited us to join the TFX. Heck, we could've done the same thing with the AVIC FC-31 in 2012. In either case, we could've got investment, offsets, and serious workshare which would've truly taken our academia and industry to the next level. Now, we are stuck on the 'quasi-partner, mostly a customer' category for both TFX/MMU and J-35/J-21.
> 
> On the right course of action, the PAF would focus on inducting J-10CEs until the NGFA (TFX or J-35) comes online. The latter would be a mid-2030s type of thing, and all procurement effort would focus on the NGFA (to replace the F-16A/Bs).



I don't agree with the narrative that we don't introduce stealth as it would force India too. We've known since 2015 that India will acquire stealth starting 2025 or so. Their AMCA project's "conceptual requirements" have been around for well over 5 years now requiring extremely low observability to stealth optimization in later blocks. And now it's going to be 5th gen which we knew would come. In my opinion, the PAF due to it's mainly defensive role and obvious issues with funds, always wait to measure up the adversary's acquisition plans fully and then procures a counter in enough quantities to create a deterrence. 

I agree with you on J-10CE. I've been harping on the subject, write today's date and this message. F-16's will be replaced by more J-10CE's (or whatever block we'll name it at that time). J-10CE will end up replacing some of the Mirage squadrons as well. Knowing that, I am STRONGLY suggesting that we assemble them locally even with limited ToT and train our people, save $$ and start an industry around this platform. It's our next 30+ years Hi or the Hi/Lo. We start today, we'll have somewhat of a nascent industry around this platform in 10 years.

NGFA will have its own squadrons and won't really counter, supplement or replace the F-16's.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PakFactor said:


> The bold part is that I've encountered this situation many times with our armed forces; please explain to me the logic behind this all. It's like the US saying let's not introduce stealth fighters because the Chinese will also want one. The purpose of armed forces isn't just to maintain parity of arms but to excel and over-power the opponent. Indeed, what will you do now if the conflict breaks out and stealth air-craft could've given you the edge you need to take down a larger opponent?
> 
> PA, PAF, and PN have been engaged in pure neglect of duty.


tbh it's a fancy way of masking the real reason...not wanting to spend money in that area. Sometimes, the rationale for doing so is valid, i.e., to spend in other areas that need it more now. Other times, I suspect it's a mask to justify wasteful spending, like the buildings for AZM, VVIP jets, VVIP cars, etc. Sadly, we don't have a CAG-style office with teeth to pick apart why a certain purchase decision was made or not made.

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## sparten

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh it's a fancy way of masking the real reason...not wanting to spend money in that area. Sometimes, the rationale for doing so is valid, i.e., to spend in other areas that need it more now. Other times, I suspect it's a mask to justify wasteful spending, like the buildings for AZM, VVIP jets, VVIP cars, etc. Sadly, we don't have a CAG-style office with teeth to pick apart why a certain purchase decision was made or not made.


Auditor Generals office reports.
They are available online.


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## python-000




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## princefaisal

Turkiye intends to develop twin-engine _KIZILELMA UCAV (length & wingspan greater than JF-17) having larger fuselage for greater internal weapon station volume and fuel capacity. If Turkiye develops its pilot operated version, it would be cheaper & capable 5th gen aircraft._

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## Corax

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF royally bungled its NGFA plans by basically not taking them seriously.
> 
> AHQ never took Turkey's TFX invite seriously (and heck, I'd bet they didn't take the TFX itself seriously until now). And AHQ threw the AZM bone to some internal group to humour them. We also have a camp that's of the belief, "well, we don't want to introduce an NGFA to the region because that'll push India to add its own NGFA, so, let's not focus on that right now."
> 
> Strategically, the most rational route was to:
> 
> 1. Pursue the J-10CE as the next mainstay fighter. Buy it in incremental batches through the rest of this decade. I think (funding problems notwithstanding) this has been the plan since around 2017-2018 (and accelerated after 2019).
> 
> 2. Join an NGFA program -- be it Turkey or China -- as a consortium partner. We had our shot to negotiate a relatively good deal back in 2016 when Turkey invited us to join the TFX. Heck, we could've done the same thing with the AVIC FC-31 in 2012. In either case, we could've got investment, offsets, and serious workshare which would've truly taken our academia and industry to the next level. Now, we are stuck on the 'quasi-partner, mostly a customer' category for both TFX/MMU and J-35/J-21.
> 
> On the right course of action, the PAF would focus on inducting J-10CEs until the NGFA (TFX or J-35) comes online. The latter would be a mid-2030s type of thing, and all procurement effort would focus on the NGFA (to replace the F-16A/Bs).



The prevailing mentality seems to be "india isn't the US". Whenever I mention the fact that the PAF missed an opportunity with the twin seat version of the JF-17, and that they should have based it on the Block 3 specs including the dedicated LDP hardpoint, the new IR based MAWS, and AESA radar to make a more credible combat capable twin seater (a relatively simple target next to developing an FGFA), people reply back with "not needed, we are facing india, not the US". If you want to know why the likes of Turkey and China are where they are today, and why Pakistan is where it is today, this pretty much explains it.

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## Path-Finder

princefaisal said:


> Turkiye intends to develop twin-engine _KIZILELMA UCAV (length & wingspan greater than JF-17) having larger fuselage for greater internal weapon station volume and fuel capacity. If Turkiye develops its pilot operated version, it would be cheaper & capable 5th gen aircraft._


the experience from Kizilelma can definitely help in TFX. technically Kizilelma has already done so much of the leg work that will pave the way for TFX.

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## princefaisal

For size comparison of Kizilelma and J-20:-


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1596898721178202112

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## Ali_Baba

Path-Finder said:


> the experience from Kizilelma can definitely help in TFX. technically Kizilelma has already done so much of the leg work that will pave the way for TFX.


the best thing to me - of the Kizilelma flight - is the ability to test the Turkish developed new digital fly-by-wire flight control system for an unstable airframe. That knowledge will feed into the TFX quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system for sure. That will massively de-risk the programme. The engines for the prototype are American - so the risk variables for the TFX prototype are being successfully knocked off.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> the experience from Kizilelma can definitely help in TFX. technically Kizilelma has already done so much of the leg work that will pave the way for TFX.





Ali_Baba said:


> the best thing to me - of the Kizilelma flight - is the ability to test the Turkish developed new digital fly-by-wire flight control system for an unstable airframe. That knowledge will feed into the TFX quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system for sure. That will massively de-risk the programme. The engines for the prototype are American - so the risk variables for the TFX prototype are being successfully knocked off.


I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.

But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD

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## Ali_Baba

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD



Absolutely - and it will highlight Pakistan's failed approach of having military men develop weapons and not private industry. Interesting times for sure!!!!

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.


is it possible to get ivchenko progress ToT? I don't think Ukraine will have any qualms in doing so. it will save alot of time. while domestic engines can be made in due time. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD


baykar started by making RC planes and look at them now. a real success story.


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## Indos

Efficient company + Big support from Government. I think it is the secret.

First make the company as efficient and profitable business entity. Once you have money, you can get help from mature aerospace company that sells engineering service.

Indonesian Aerospace for example has engineering service business as well. BAE system I believe the same as they are helping Turkish TFX program with 100 engineers

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## Horse_Rider

princefaisal said:


> Turkiye intends to develop twin-engine _KIZILELMA UCAV (length & wingspan greater than JF-17) having larger fuselage for greater internal weapon station volume and fuel capacity. If Turkiye develops its pilot operated version, it would be cheaper & capable 5th gen aircraft._



Essentially TFX is that manned version. The TFX DNA comes from KizilElma. Obviously, TX would have more advance tech since it's being built now vs. KizilElma with few year older tech.



Indos said:


> Efficient company + Big support from Government. I think it is the secret.
> 
> First make the company as efficient and profitable business entity. Once you have money, you can get help from mature aerospace company that sells engineering service.
> 
> Indonesian Aerospace for example has engineering service business as well. BAE system I believe the same as they are helping Turkish TFX program with 100 engineers



The key is to have local industry. Whenever a government prioritizes that, something is always built. JFT is an example for us. it doesn't have to be "make a company profitable, etc". It needs to have funding to build what it needs to build. For example, in China's case, their fighter jets aren't exported (the J series, outside of J-10C to Pakistan) and many other munitions. They build for internal consumption first and have made investments into every arena. We've all watched a similar story in Turkey and China. Radars, Avionics, Flight Testing, Manufacturing, Engine Tech, Robotics, etc, etc, had received serious investments many years ago. Now both nations are reaping the fruits. 

And ALL defense manufacturers have consulting services associated to their products.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Turkey Manufactured the Fuselage for F35 so they gained key structural knowledge of main body of the plane 

Pakistan has knowledge about the Wings general body parts for long time

Both Turkey and Pakistan, have ample knowledge on design of functional components of Fighter Jet the hardware & software

The Engine will be a challenge by likely Turkey has some knowledge on Engine's side 
Pakistan does has some knowledge working with Mirage Engines for multiple decades


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## Indos

Horse_Rider said:


> The key is to have local industry. Whenever a government prioritizes that, something is always built. JFT is an example for us. it doesn't have to be "make a company profitable, etc". It needs to have funding to build what it needs to build. For example, in China's case, their fighter jets aren't exported (the J series, outside of J-10C to Pakistan) and many other munitions. They build for internal consumption first and have made investments into every arena. We've all watched a similar story in Turkey and China. Radars, Avionics, Flight Testing, Manufacturing, Engine Tech, Robotics, etc, etc, had received serious investments many years ago. Now both nations are reaping the fruits.
> 
> And ALL defense manufacturers have consulting services associated to their products.



Basically for many defense enthusiast like us, Chinese leader and Erdogan is perfect. I mean not in how they manage the politics or economy, but they support on their local defense industry.

Still I believe aerospace company should be treated like any business entity in order to grow economically healthy. The perfect ones I think is Boeing and Airbus that both serves civilian and military market.


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## Horse_Rider

Indos said:


> Basically for many defense enthusiast like us, Chinese leader and Erdogan is perfect. I mean not in how they manage the politics or economy, but they support on their local defense industry.
> 
> Still I believe aerospace company should be treated like any business entity in order to grow economically healthy. The perfect ones I think is Boeing and Airbus that both serves civilian and military market.



Boeing and Airbus are brands, these own various businesses underneath them, such as "defense sector" and "commercial operations" and each has a respective line of products. But to start out, you first need to build products in the industry you want to specialize in. After these become successful, then you move onto other products or you'll fail.


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## That Guy

princefaisal said:


> For size comparison of Kizilelma and J-20:-
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1596898721178202112


On a side note: Form factor, it's a think that exists. It's why all the stealth fighters we know of share similar physixal characteristics.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.
> 
> But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD


I agree. It really does seem like building basic drones to then move on to advanced drones is a great (and relatively cheaper) way to increase your nation's technical knowledge base around aviation.

What do you think? Could we see an announcement by Baykar by 2025?


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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.
> 
> But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD


There's a lot of discussion here that sort of thinks that Kizilelma and TFX are sister programs. The truth is that TA and Baykar are competitors and there is little to no sideways flow of tech - except of course the odd engineer switching jobs. MMU is an entirely independent program that is well funded and well staffed. Yes, Baykar is doing great things but they don't have nearly the resources to take up a project as complex as the MMU. The amount of people working on it should simply tell you of the complexity. And they are understaffed by their own estimates. Kizilelma is a good system but in terms of complexity and capability it is a Mehran in front of the Mercedes that is the MMU.

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## Silicon0000

I have read somewhere (don't know where and also not sure about it's authenticity) that Baykar is in very early stage of working on an optionally manned aircraft which will be their first step towards Sixth Gen. If someone else come across same thing then do share it's link here.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.
> 
> But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD





JamD said:


> There's a lot of discussion here that sort of thinks that Kizilelma and TFX are sister programs. The truth is that TA and Baykar are competitors and there is little to no sideways flow of tech - except of course the odd engineer switching jobs. MMU is an entirely independent program that is well funded and well staffed. Yes, Baykar is doing great things but they don't have nearly the resources to take up a project as complex as the MMU. The amount of people working on it should simply tell you of the complexity. And they are understaffed by their own estimates. Kizilelma is a good system but in terms of complexity and capability it is a Mehran in front of the Mercedes that is the MMU.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> There's a lot of discussion here that sort of thinks that Kizilelma and TFX are sister programs. The truth is that TA and Baykar are competitors and there is little to no sideways flow of tech - except of course the odd engineer switching jobs. MMU is an entirely independent program that is well funded and well staffed. Yes, Baykar is doing great things but they don't have nearly the resources to take up a project as complex as the MMU. The amount of people working on it should simply tell you of the complexity. And they are understaffed by their own estimates. Kizilelma is a good system but in terms of complexity and capability it is a Mehran in front of the Mercedes that is the MMU.





Silicon0000 said:


> I have read somewhere (don't know where and also not sure about it's authenticity) that Baykar is in very early stage of working on an optionally manned aircraft which will be their first step towards Sixth Gen. If someone else come across same thing then do share it's link here.


It's not a rumour in as much analysis. Those observing Baykar believe it's gradually moving towards a manned fighter program, but as @JamD said, Baykar and Turkish Aerospace/TA are ultimately competitors. TUSAS Engine Industries, Aselsan and Havelsan might be willing horizontal partners as they're primarily subsystem suppliers (and in TEI's case, the principal engine provider).

However, if Baykar's going to make the leap to manned jets, it'd need a big governmental partner to support it. This could be a neat opportunity for Pakistan, but hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves and think, amirite? 

But seriously, if we project 15 or 20 years into the future, and build a long-term co-development and co-production partnership along those lines, it can happen. Sadly, Pakistani leaders aren't visionaries, or planners, or ops-doers. As JamD wrote a bunch of times, we can start with simpler projects, like a loyal wingman, and then a LIFT, and then a manned fighter.

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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.
> 
> But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD


Seeing all this work and progress of Baykar...and comparing it with Pakistan
...I would say it is us who are baykar 🤣

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## SQ8

Horse_Rider said:


> See your post below and the details about the JFT. You were suggesting the cost of JFT was $ 15 Mil and that estimated for 160-175 builds and that some cost has gone up. So let's pretend that we add $ 5 Mil to that "some cost have gone up" that you were referring to. Even at taking your $ 20Mil per plane is FAR OFF the map for costs especially Block II and III! Not counting or adding upgrade cost of JF-17A.
> 
> I don't get into useless arguments as it's a waste of everyone's time. Nor am I here to "share and be right". I know what I know and I share that. If you go back to my first post on J-10C and the JFT, you'll find the consistency in everything. I don't change per your or someone else's opinions or posts as my statements are purely mine based on my experience and knowledge. What is surprising is a person with your background to be going nuts on anti-military threads. I'm sure it seems that you've had difference of opinion but that's still an institute we respect deeply. But that's a separate topic so we don't need to derail the thread here.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> SQ8 said:
> Your analysis is as naive as your knowledge of the program itself. The AZM has gone through multiple conceptual design and was settling for a version that resembled the YF-23(in layout of diamond wing and ruddervators) before another concept with canards was put on top due to “preference”.
> 
> *Now the JFT has fulfilled its requirement for 150 units - the unit cost of JFT may be stated as $15 million but when you include the cost of setting up the production line, training and raw materials that cost has hit above. And that was still amortized cost over 160-175 builds.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


The fact that you had to go into “anti-military “ aspect shows the bias and seething anger in your posts.
Once again, I did not state $5 million additional - you brought that figure. It could be much higher as well or lower. What I do know from my outdated information is that even with comparatively low interest Chinese loans for both infrastructure and material costs for the Chinese components the PAF has had struggles with making those payments.So it clearly isn’t capable of getting more loans to set up a J-10C line for even 1/3 of the JF-17 purchases it did.

I will admit my fallacy in not stating that $15 million as the cost for the block-I because that was stated repeatedly during initial interviews. The rest I maintain - you are still jumping tangents to get what is right while trying to defend the right precious image you have of the military which isn’t even in topic nor do you even have context to what I highlight.
Hence my reiterating that you are a fanboy looking to vent rather than someone taking the arguments for what they are and can never be objective.

Lets agree to disagree - I have better people to discuss things with and you do too.

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## Horse_Rider

SQ8 said:


> The fact that you had to go into “anti-military “ aspect shows the bias and seething anger in your posts.
> Once again, I did not state $5 million additional - you brought that figure. It could be much higher as well or lower. What I do know from my outdated information is that even with comparatively low interest Chinese loans for both infrastructure and material costs for the Chinese components the PAF has had struggles with making those payments.So it clearly isn’t capable of getting more loans to set up a J-10C line for even 1/3 of the JF-17 purchases it did.
> 
> I will admit my fallacy in not stating that $15 million as the cost for the block-I because that was stated repeatedly during initial interviews. The rest I maintain - you are still jumping tangents to get what is right while trying to defend the right precious image you have of the military which isn’t even in topic nor do you even have context to what I highlight.
> Hence my reiterating that you are a fanboy looking to vent rather than someone taking the arguments for what they are and can never be objective.
> 
> Lets agree to disagree - I have better people to discuss things with and you do too.


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## snne

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not a rumour in as much analysis. Those observing Baykar believe it's gradually moving towards a manned fighter program, but as @JamD said, Baykar and Turkish Aerospace/TA are ultimately competitors. TUSAS Engine Industries, Aselsan and Havelsan might be willing horizontal partners as they're primarily subsystem suppliers (and in TEI's case, the principal engine provider).
> 
> However, if Baykar's going to make the leap to manned jets, it'd need a big governmental partner to support it. This could be a neat opportunity for Pakistan, but hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves and think, amirite?
> 
> But seriously, if we project 15 or 20 years into the future, and build a long-term co-development and co-production partnership along those lines, it can happen. Sadly, Pakistani leaders aren't visionaries, or planners, or ops-doers. As JamD wrote a bunch of times, we can start with simpler projects, like a loyal wingman, and then a LIFT, and then a manned fighter.


But what you're forgetting is the fact that the Bayraktar brothers are famous for publicly criticizing the development of a manned 5th gen fighter.

Wherever they go and whenever they speak, they speak against current and future developments of manned fighter platforms saying "the future of aerial warfare belongs to unmanned fighters", "manned fighters are long outdated" and "unmanned platforms are going to be able to engage in BVR warfare and Dogfights in a couple of years from now"

There's a reason why they went for what is essentially a J-20 -esque "loyal wingman" fighter drone and not for a manned or even a traditional flying wing design.


P.S. All of this "early work on manned Kizilelma version" chatter comes only from the Pakistani people on mainly this forum. There's nothing going on on that front and considering the stance of Bayraktar brothers (which I mentioned above) I don't expect such a thing ever materializing.

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## merzifonlu

Baykar and TAI are not rivals. They do not produce products that replace each other. They cannot produce, because the government won't allow it. We don't have that many resources, we are not the USA.

For example, Anka&TB2 or Akıncı&Aksungur are not drones with the same characteristics. *They complete each other.* There is also cooperation between the two companies. For example, when TB2 first joined the Syria operations, it was affected by the GPS jamming, but Anka was not. Technologies from Anka were immediately transferred to TB2.

It would not be correct to compare the Kızılelma and TFX. In fact, it would be most logical to compare TAI's Anka-3 with Baykar's Kızılelma.

TFX is a unique national program. Like the cherry on the cake. Baykar will also benefit from the investments made for TFX.

Oh, BTW, Baykar did not develop the Fly By Wire technology used in Kızılelma. That technology was developed in TAI's Hürjet program and transferred to Baykar.

In summary, Government of Türkiye nourishes Baykar like a sapling. Until it becomes a grown oak tree! If we had left this company to its own fate, Baykar would not be the current Baykar!

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## renhai

SQ8 said:


> Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.
> 
> Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.

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## Hold the door

TAI and Baykar are not competitors. Both of them are doing the jobs assigned by the presidency of the defense industry of Turkey.

Baykar will never build a manned aircraft. Its next target is space and civil flying vehicles (maybe flying cars).


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## snne

merzifonlu said:


> Oh, BTW, Baykar did not develop the Fly By Wire technology used in Kızılelma. That technology was developed in TAI's Hürjet program and transferred to Baykar.


Do you have any proof or are you actually just making this up? Because if the latter is true, then what you're doing is misinforming people so I kindly ask you to stop it please.

Do you really think TAI would just transfer something as critical as FBW (which they just recently managed to develop) and just give it to a private company that they have almost no links to? This is like helping them to master the RAM coatings, do you really think TAI would just give these critical, hard earned techs to Baykar? The only ToT that Baykar may ever receive from TAI is probably from engineers switching jobs as @JamD has said.

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## Indos

snne said:


> Do you have any proof or are you actually just making this up? Because if the latter is true, then what you're doing is misinforming people so I kindly ask you to stop it please.
> 
> Do you really think TAI would just transfer something as critical as FBW (which they just recently managed to develop) and just give it to a private company that they have almost no links to? This is like helping them to master the RAM coatings, do you really think TAI would just give these critical, hard earned techs to Baykar? The only ToT that Baykar may ever receive from TAI is probably from engineers switching jobs as @JamD has said.



TAI is State Owned Enterprises and Baykar owner wife is Erdogan daughter

Any way, FBW system is already old technology. Indonesian N250 flown in 1995 has already used FBW system

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## snne

Indos said:


> TAI is State Owned Enterprises and Baykar owner wife is Erdogan daughter
> 
> Any way, FBW system is already old technology. Indonesian N250 flown in 1995 has already used FBW system


🤦‍♂️ I'm not even going to correct you but if you really think that's how everything works; then, you're mistaken big time, bro.

Anyway, others can point out the obvious here.


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## Indos

snne said:


> 🤦‍♂️ I'm not even going to correct you but if you really think that's how everything works; then, you're mistaken big time, bro.
> 
> Anyway, others can point out the obvious here.



Erdogan has already governed like Dictator in Turkey. Do you think he cannot make it ?

----------------------

About FBW system in N250 is already open source information

After termination​There has been some consideration concerning the program's revival by the former director of the IPTN and, later, the former Indonesian president B. J. Habibie after having received approval from the incumbent president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. However, to reduce production costs and improve price competitiveness in international markets, changes were made which have resulted in reduced performance such as a reduction in engine capacity, and the removal of the fly-by-wire system. The planned reborn plane was planned to be named N250R.









IPTN N-250 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Corax

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not a rumour in as much analysis. Those observing Baykar believe it's gradually moving towards a manned fighter program, but as @JamD said, Baykar and Turkish Aerospace/TA are ultimately competitors. TUSAS Engine Industries, Aselsan and Havelsan might be willing horizontal partners as they're primarily subsystem suppliers (and in TEI's case, the principal engine provider).
> 
> However, if Baykar's going to make the leap to manned jets, it'd need a big governmental partner to support it. This could be a neat opportunity for Pakistan, but hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves and think, amirite?
> 
> But seriously, if we project 15 or 20 years into the future, and build a long-term co-development and co-production partnership along those lines, it can happen. Sadly, Pakistani leaders aren't visionaries, or planners, or ops-doers. As JamD wrote a bunch of times, we can start with simpler projects, like a loyal wingman, and then a LIFT, and then a manned fighter.



I think one of the reasons why decision makers in Pakistan have been reluctant to invest too much weight with development programmes in Turkey is because they face too great uncertainty and risk, from Pakistan's point of view.

Remember, the whole point of the JF-17 programme was to develop a sanction proof fighter, cheap enough to manufacture in large numbers to replace legacy platforms. The PAF is way too weary to invest in a major project again, like the F-16, only to see it grounded due to sanctions. You only have to look at the debacle of the T-129 acquisition to see this.

The TFX relies too heavily on subsystems from western suppliers, and even the likes of BAE and Rolls Royce have been contracted as consultants to help with the design and development process. Sure, Turkey is making effort to replace critical components with domestic alternatives, especially the powerplant, but that's still a big question mark, with all due respect to the capabilities of Turkey. If China is struggling to develop adequate powerplants for its programmes, it's difficult to see how Turkey can supplant the same challenges. 

The most obvious and less risky option would have been to get onboard with the J-31/35 programme, but the lukewarm attitude of the PLAN/PLAF has probably impacted the PAF's view of that option as well.

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## merzifonlu

Indos said:


> Erdogan has already governed like Dictator in Turkey. Do you think he cannot make it ?


Even if CHP's Imamoglu had ruled Turkiye instead of Erdogan, the same would have happened and TAI would have provided Baykar with the technology it needed.
You don't understand the situation. You evaluate Turkey in peacetime logic. Turkiye does not live in a time of peace, on the contrary, in a time of war. That's why we urgently need both TFX and Kızılelma.

Because,
a) There is Ukraine War in our north and it is unknown what madness Russia will do.
b) Iran and Afghanistan is about to explode. When the state authority there collapses, waves of immigrants will hit our borders.
c) We cannot come to an agreement with both the USA and the Iran/Russia duo in Syria.
d) Ever since the energy deposits were discovered, there are "sharks" that want to kick us out of the Mediterranean. And these western sharks won't sell us planes or anything!

Oh, by the way, the Bayraktar family, who owns Baykar, and Tayyip Erdoğan's connection is not just family connection. Özdemir Bayraktar, the fathers of Haluk and Selçuk Bayraktar, was a manager in Erdoğan's former party. In other words, the Erdogan and Bayraktar families are close to each other ideologically.

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## Horse_Rider

snne said:


> But what you're forgetting is the fact that the Bayraktar brothers are famous for publicly criticizing the development of a manned 5th gen fighter.
> 
> Wherever they go and whenever they speak, they speak against current and future developments of manned fighter platforms saying "the future of aerial warfare belongs to unmanned fighters", "manned fighters are long outdated" and "unmanned platforms are going to be able to engage in BVR warfare and Dogfights in a couple of years from now"
> 
> There's a reason why they went for what is essentially a J-20 -esque "loyal wingman" fighter drone and not for a manned or even a traditional flying wing design.
> 
> 
> P.S. All of this "early work on manned Kizilelma version" chatter comes only from the Pakistani people on mainly this forum. There's nothing going on on that front and considering the stance of Bayraktar brothers (which I mentioned above) I don't expect such a thing ever materializing.



They aren't wrong. The US strategic thinkers were saying the F-35 would be the last "manned" 5th gen jet. That the 6th gen fighters will all be robotics. Just take a look at their new 6th gen strategic bomber, the B-21. It comes with manned and unmanned options. I'd for near enemy airspace ops, the unmanned option will be used. That tells us what to expect in the US 6th gen NGA. Or may be the 6th gen would have the "option" of manned and unmanned but the 7th gen (future) is 100% unmanned. That is the future. 

Bayraktar guys are just looking at the future and trying to leapfrog. But it takes a buy in and time to get there. Manned jets do give "comfort" to manage the "unknown". Ten years from now, it won't be the case and unmanned would be trusted just as much or more.


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## Silicon0000

There are lots of TAI MMU / TFX related threads in PDF.

Similarly many TFX - AZM related threads in PDF. 

It would be good if some mod spare some time to combine relevant threads 😇


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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1607186124484800512


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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