# Ababeel SSM - Pakistan gains MIRV technology.



## Side-Winder

Pak successfully conducted first flight test of SSM #ABABEEL, Rg 2200 Km. #COAS congrats team and Pak Armed Forces for landmk achievement.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176
*The missile is MIRV capable *- LONG LIVE PAKISTAN

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## Sulman Badshah

Wow .. Nice and Congratulations for new type of Missile and back to back successful test

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## Cyberian

Allahu Akbar. Ma'Shah'Allah.

Congratulations to everyone in Pakistan.
Pakistan Zindabad.

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## Zarvan

Good Job but which Missile is this or have they changed name of the Missile ?

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## janu.bravo

Bashido said:


> What is SSM? Surface-surface missile?


Yes

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## countryman

Mo12 said:


> do u think Pakistan can soon launch rockets into space now using the technology in that rocket?



I think liquid propellant will be more cost effective than solid propellant, however, I think this test is more about testing the knowledge and technology. Knowledge gained through this can be applied for any program.

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## Bashido

janu.bravo said:


> Yes



What is purpose of these missiles with such a range because we already have Ballistic missile. Please ignore my limited knowledge.

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## Ahmad Bhutta

Banniye ko neend nahi and abh tu

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## HRK

Side-Winder said:


> Pak successfully conducted first flight test of SSM #ABABEEL, Rg 2200 Km. #COAS congrats team and Pak Armed Forces for landmk achievement.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176



Shaheen-II MIRV version ... "Ababeel" ... ??? 
@The Deterrent

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## fitpOsitive

Congrats.
Test Taimoor and no less, asap. 
Secondly give us good news on anti-missile technology. At least I am waiting anxiously for.

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## Haystack

When are the experts going to debunk this lie of Pakistan?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Congadulation to Pakistan

Alhamdulilah and also special thanks to the Scientist and engineers on this wonderful achivement

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## Areesh

HRK said:


> Shaheen-II MIRV version ... "Ababeel" ... ???
> @The Deterrent



Its a fake test. Look at the color of the missile. It changes from white to black to violet to indigo to orange.

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## Windjammer

Zarvan said:


> Good Job but which Missile is this or have they changed name of the Missile ?


It first appears like the Shaheen-3 but a closer look reveals a different weapon altogether. 
Awesome, congrats to all my country fellows.

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## Areesh

Windjammer said:


> It first appears like the Shaheen-3 but a closer look reveals a different weapon altogether.
> Awesome, congrats to all my country fellows.



More details about this please??


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Timing in impecible , "The name Ababeel" and threat against the two holy mosques by ISIS and other factors

Is this a Pakistani "MIRV" ?

If we go by the story , the ababeel , which threw multiple stones from its beak onto the enemy.
Sounds like "MIRV"

But I could be wrong

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

Bravo  . desperately waiting for vedic experts to react on this achievement .

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## countryman

Bashido said:


> What is purpose of these missiles with such a range because we already have Ballistic missile. Please ignore my limited knowledge.



Rocket science isn't limited to range, it is test of some improvement in technology. All rocket propellant are not cheap, eco-friendly, and efficient. Though it is successful, but even failed attempts contribute knowledge and knowledge gained this way helps us correct our mistakes.

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## SBD-3

So where does this put Shaheen II?

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## Windjammer

Areesh said:


> More details about this please??



Yaara, look at the time, it's past 4.00 PM in Pakistan, ISPR......Chuthi....still trying.

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## The Deterrent

HRK said:


> Shaheen-II MIRV version ... "Ababeel" ... ???
> @The Deterrent


Indeed. Congratulations to all Pakistanis. 

Along-with introducing the second-strike capability, Pakistan has declared active development of massive first-strike capability, thus ensuring Full-spectrum deterrence. The Indo/Pak arms race just got a new angle. 

*Tidbits:*

1. As evident from the released photo, the missile is based on the previously well-established line of Ballistic missiles i.e Shaheen-II/III.
2. An extra stage has been added, presumably giving the ability to inject RVs in their independent trajectories.
3. The payload fairing has been made larger and wider, to accommodate the MIRV-bus and up to 3 MIRVs.
4. The stated range is highly variable, depending on the number of RVs in the payload. However, the maximum range of this system will not exceed the limit set by Pakistan. 
5. The decrease in range is because of the additional mass of MIRVs and third stage.
6. The nomenclature comes from the historic Islamic (Abrahmic) event, when the Abyssinians intended to invade and destroy Ka'abah, using elephants. Allah then sent thousands of 'Ababeels' (swallows/larks), each with 3 stones (one in beak, two in each claw) to kill the elephants.

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## Suff Shikan

Windjammer said:


> It first appears like the Shaheen-3 but a closer look reveals a different weapon altogether.
> Awesome, congrats to all my country fellows.



Whts the difference? Possibly MIRV capabale?

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## Bashido

countryman said:


> Rocket science isn't limited to range, it is test of some improvement in technology. All rocket propellant are not cheap, eco-friendly, and efficient. Though it is successful, but even failed attempts contribute knowledge and knowledge gained this way helps us correct our mistakes.



I am not against any research. I am trying to understand SSM. does it mean Surface to space here.?


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## Devil Soul

*AlHumduillah*, Congrats to All....

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## Max

Congrats to fellow Pakistanis..

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## BHarwana

It is MIRV successful tested. congratulation to the nation.

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## Devil Soul



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## Rafael

The Deterrent said:


> Indeed. Congratulations to all Pakistanis. The Indo/Pak arms race just got a new angle.
> 
> Tidbits:
> 1. As seen in the video, Ababeel is a modified Shaheen-III with an extra stage. Clearer photos will reveal how the MIRVs were accommodated.
> 2. The nomenclature comes from the historic Islamic (Abrahmic) event, when the Abyssinians intended to invade and destroy Ka'abah, using elephants. Allah then sent thousands of 'Ababeels' (swallows/larks), each with 3 stones (one in beak, two in each claw) to kill the elephants.



Elephant is key here.

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## somebozo

the name "Ababeel" indicates in direction of MIRV.

Thats what Ababeel exactly did, each had three pebbles..one in their mouth two in their feet and they dropped it on to enemy...

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## Devil Soul



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## abdulbarijan

We seem to be on a roll lately ... 







@The Deterrent .. Any tidbits regarding the number of warheads that can independently be delivered from this system or is that classified as of now?

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## Samlee

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Timing in impecible , "The name Ababeel" and threat against the two holy mosques by ISIS and other factors
> 
> Is this a Pakistani "MIRV" ?
> 
> If we go by the story , the ababeel , which threw multiple stones from its beak onto the enemy.
> Sounds like "MIRV"
> 
> But I could be wrong




*The Meaning Cannot Be Any Clearer*


*Kya Tu Ne Nahi Dekha Tere Rab Ne Haathi Waalon Ke Saath Kya Kiya*

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## The Eagle

*Pakistan conducts first flight test of Ababeel surface-to-surface missile*
— PUBLISHED 3 minutes ago

Pakistan on Tuesday conducted a successful test flight of the Ababeel surface-to-surface missile, the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the Army's public relations wing, said in a tweet.







Follow

Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor @OfficialDGISPR
Pak successfully conducted first flight test of SSM #ABABEEL, Rg 2200 Km. #COAS congrats team and Pak Armed Forces for landmk achievement.

3:49 PM - 24 Jan 2017




The Army's official spokesperson, Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor, said that the Chief of Armed Staff Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa had congratulated the scientists and the armed forces for the "landmark achievement".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Congrats Team Pakistan and the Nation as well. We can see the reasons of all those sanctions and there were projects in pipeline or close to completion of tests.... 2200 KM stated range.... speaks volume of quality.... Name is Ababeel so think the impact and work .... More to come... Pakistan Zindabad

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## HRK



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## [--Leo--]

why a different name when shaheen can do the same and why 2200 km please answer


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## Areesh

[--Leo--] said:


> why a different name when shaheen can do the same and why 2200 km please answer



MIRV bhai sahab MIRV. That is the difference.

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## CriticalThought

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Timing in impecible , "The name Ababeel" and threat against the two holy mosques by ISIS and other factors
> 
> Is this a Pakistani "MIRV" ?
> 
> If we go by the story , the ababeel , which threw multiple stones from its beak onto the enemy.
> Sounds like "MIRV"
> 
> But I could be wrong



Good thoughts.

Alhamdulillah. Masha Allah. Many cograts to our scientists, engineers, and our leaders as well for having the vision and the ability to make this happen.

I like the MIRV theory.

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## Samlee

JOEY TRIBIANI said:


> Bravo  . desperately waiting for vedic experts to react on this achievement .



*Have Some Mercy They Have Been Cleaning Their Senior Officers House All Day.They Need Rest*

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## Devil Soul

*ALLAH-U-AKBAR
"Ababeel"...the bird which destroyed the elephants .... 2200 Range ......... can reach Israel... *

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## Windjammer



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## Areesh

@DESERT FIGHTER @Windjammer @HRK 

Oye jiyo jawano. MIRV confirmed

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## Muhammad Farrukh Faizy

Congrats , But what MIRV??

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## Side-Winder

Come on tell me it is MIRV capable  
@The Deterrent

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## Winchester

Masha Allah great name !

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## Samlee

Muhammad Farrukh Faizy said:


> Congrats



Welcome to PDF bro


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## Manticore

HRK said:


> View attachment 371440
> 
> View attachment 371441





Devil Soul said:


>


edited thread title


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## hunter_hunted

Bless you Pak Engineers , Keep up the good work and proud of you sons and daughters of soil

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## The Deterrent

Side-Winder said:


> Come on tell me it is MIRV capable
> @The Deterrent


I already did.

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## mdcp

Alhamdulillah and congrats to all nation

Welldone to our scientists and forces

Plz do something for anti air missiles as well

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## Side-Winder

Confirmed -

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## Max

Devil Soul said:


> *ALLAH-U-AKBAR
> "Ababeel"...the bird which destroyed the elephants .... 2200 Range ......... can reach Israel... *



Ma'Sha"Allah lots of birds to pay respect at 0.06

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## The Eagle

No trolls...... Must know the rules....

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## xyxmt

Areesh said:


> Its a fake test. Look at the color of the missile.* It changes from white to black to violet to indigo to orange. *



Only Pakistan has that tech

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## Salza

Code name Ababeel indeed sounds MIRV type missile. 

Flocks of Ababeel birds were sent by God against invading elephant trained army of Abraha. The birds rained multiple stones on the invading army thus destroying them completely.

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## HRK

Side-Winder said:


> Come on tell me it is MIRV capable
> @The Deterrent


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## graphican

Windjammer said:


>



Clearly a three phase missile with multiple warheads on the top. Is that a counter measure against S-400 missile defence system? 

MaShaAllah. Congratulations Pakistan.

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## saiyan0321

Is this MIRV? Oh shit we just tested MIRV! And we named it ababeel. Oh man. Oh shit. Oh man. Oh we gotta party. Oh man.

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## countryman

Bashido said:


> does it mean Surface to space here.?



Sorry I didn't get it, who is talking about surface to space?

Anyway, disregarding the specific objectives of these test, whatever they're, knowledge gained from this test can be for rockets used for any purpose, however, this test test will contribute knowledge to first stage more than subsequent stages. Currently we don't have much proven understanding of dynamics of later stages.


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## Emmie

MIRV! Congratulations everybody!

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## Erl

Congrats guys.
multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle.
Is it thermonuclear?

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## [--Leo--]

Areesh said:


> MIRV bhai sahab MIRV. That is the difference.


so you are saying shaheen-3 is not MIRV capable?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Muhammad Farrukh Faizy said:


> Congrats , But what MIRV??



Tutorial






ABABEEL , has newer modules , and pieces that were not present in the Other missiles which Pakistan developed in earlier on. Certainly a great technological achivement as "a Deterrant"

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## Max

Muhammad Farrukh Faizy said:


> But what MIRV??



the ballistic missile which can deploy 2 or more warheads..

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## The Eagle

MIRV, Multiple Warheads with multiple target engaging, 2200 KM of first test, name is ABABEEL-1.... more to come.... enough said....

What a start of 2017... Babur-III SLCM (second strike capability)
Ababeel-1, MIRV.............. Congrats.... another doctrine by the rival is frozen now as Cold-Feet-Start-Doctrine-2. 

A long due that we achieved, a blessing of ALLAH indeed.

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## litman

so how many tanks india was bringing close to border?????

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## Salza

MIRV confirmed 

Congrats !!! Another milestone in our missile technology

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## Samlee

Erl said:


> Congrats guys.
> multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle.
> Is it thermonuclear?



It Is Capable of Carrying Nuclear Warhead


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## BHarwana

multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle MIRV

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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan conducts first flight test of surface-to-surface Ababeel missile*
By Our Correspondent
Published: January 24, 2017
3SHARES
SHARE TWEET EMAIL
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has successfully test-fired indigenously-developed surface to surface nuclear-capable missile Ababeel, the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) said Tuesday.

“Pakistan successfully conducted first flight test of SSM Ababeel, Range 2,200 kilometres,’ DG ISPR Major General Asif Ghafoor tweeted.

*Pakistan fires ‘first submarine-launched nuclear-capable missile*‘
According to the military’s media wing, the missile is capable of delivering multiple warheads, using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology. “The test flight was aimed at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system,” a statement said.

“Ababeel is capable of carrying nuclear warheads and has the capability to engage multiple targets with high precision, defeating the enemy’s hostile radars,” it added.

The ISPR said, development of Ababeel Weapon System is aimed at ensuring survivability of Pakistan’s ballistic missiles in the growing regional Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) environment. “This will further reinforce deterrence.”

Chief of Army Staff General Qamar Javed Bajwa, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Zubair Mahmood Hayat, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman and Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Zakaullah congratulated the nation and the missile launch team on the achievement.

The development came over two weeks after indigenously-developed submarine-launched cruise missile Babur-III was successfully test-fired.

Babur weapons system incorporates advanced aerodynamics and avionics that can strike targets both at land and sea with high accuracy at a range of 700kms. It is a low flying, terrain hugging missile, which carries certain stealth features and is capable of carrying various types of warheads.

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## Areesh

@Mohammed Khaled @Bilal9 @BDforever

We have started 2017 on a roll. First SLCM and now a MIRV missile. Congratz to you guys too.

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## Samlee

litman said:


> so how many tanks india was bringing close to border?????




*If They Dare Do Such Stupidity We Will Rain Ababeel on Them The Same Way Allah Rained Abrahah's Elephants With Ababeel*

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## Erl

Samlee said:


> It Is Capable of Carrying Nuclear Warhead


Of course. Not so hard to find out mate 
I just asked about it's warhead's features. Is it thermonuclear warhead?

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## Malik Shani

Only the United States, United Kingdom, Russia, France,and China are known to currently possess MIRV missiles (Wikipedia). Alhamdolilah we have achieved another milestone. What about India, do they have any MIRV capable missile?

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## graphican

Erl said:


> Congrats guys.
> multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle.
> Is it thermonuclear?



Pakistan doesn't have an announced thermonuclear weapon. Could be Nuclear but not Thermonuclear.


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## Areesh

[--Leo--] said:


> so you are saying shaheen-3 is not MIRV capable?



I am saying that Ababeel is our MIRV capable missile.

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## RedStar86

This is amazing, super capability! I don't get whats the difference between this new missile and the Shaheen 3.. 
Shaheen is a longer range from what i remember, so whats the point in going back to a shorter range?
This is very interesting, and we are very Proud!!

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## Samlee

Erl said:


> Of course. Not so hard to find out mate
> I just asked about it's warhead's features. Is it thermonuclear warhead?



*I Think So It Is.There May Actually Be A Thermonuclear Program Already Running Covertly*


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## Erl

graphican said:


> Pakistan doesn't have an announced thermonuclear weapon. Could be Nuclear but not Thermonuclear.


Thanks. Inshallah your next step

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## saiyan0321

2017 start has been nothing short of a dream.

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## T-123456

Congratulations Pakistan.
So,when do we get a few?

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## Salza

Also it is stated as Ababeel-1 which means that longer range Ababeel missile is in the line  Massive capability enhancement.

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## Windjammer

Areesh said:


> @Mohammed Khaled @Bilal9 @BDforever
> 
> We have started 2017 on a roll. First SLCM and now a MIRV missile. Congratz to you guys too.



After SLCM, Pakistan crosses another threshold taking the arms race and capability to another level.

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## Mrc

Aye tay sir g kal ho gayee babaye k saath

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## CriticalThought

RedStar86 said:


> This is amazing, super capability! I don't get whats the difference between this new missile and the Shaheen 3..
> Shaheen is a longer range from what i remember, so whats the point in going back to a shorter range?
> This is very interesting, and we are very Proud!!



The key feature is MIRV capability. This stands for Multiple Independent Targetable Re-entry Vehicle. This means one missile can carry multiple warheads, with each one targeting a different location.

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## Areesh

Windjammer said:


> After SLCM, Pakistan crosses another threshold taking the arms race and capability to another level.



Pakistanis right now

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## BHarwana

Samlee said:


> It Is Capable of Carrying Nuclear Warhead


Nuclear war head what a joke. Aik nahi Das Das lay kar jay ga. Aik ki qeemat ma 10 milay ga. Multiple Nuclear warheads plus counter measures.


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## M@rKhor

ALHAMDULILLAH....... 

So this is why US imposed sanctions.

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## sady

Masha Allah. It is moment like these that I truly feel seasonal pests cannot undo an inch of Pakistan. 

Waiting for Dawn News and it's comments section to drum up poverty and illteracy because we spend so much on defence and 'useless' missiles. They deny the command of Allah.


*'And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged'. Surah Al Anfal*

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## HRK

The Deterrent said:


> Indeed. Congratulations to all Pakistanis. Along-with introducing the second-strike capability, Pakistan has declared active development of massive first-strike capability, thus ensuring Full-spectrum deterrence.
> The Indo/Pak arms race just got a new angle. Pakistan has become the 7th country to possess this technology.
> 
> Tidbits:
> 1. As seen in the video, Ababeel is a 3-stage modified Shaheen-III. The extra stage might contribute to more payload capacity and MIRV injection mechanism.
> 2. The MIRVs seem to be housed in the bulging payload section.
> 3. The system is designed in the wake of the Indian BMD efforts.
> 4. The nomenclature comes from the historic Islamic (Abrahmic) event, when the Abyssinians intended to invade and destroy Ka'abah, using elephants. Allah then sent thousands of 'Ababeels' (swallows/larks), each with 3 stones (one in beak, two in each claw) to kill the elephants.



Who many warhead it can carry .... my guess 3 .... ??

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## Dazzler

litman said:


> so how many tanks india was bringing close to border?????



Around 460... to eat MIRV warheads

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## Erl

Samlee said:


> I Think So It Is


2200 km guys. Don't look at Iran oherwise i will *****

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## Snakebite

Can't express my feelings in words ... BC lagao sanctions jitni laga saktay ho... we have defied every hurdle before and we will do it in future... INSHA ALLAH ... 

USA na jo sanctions lagai the ab pata lag raha ha k kis bat ki jalan the ...

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## Taimur Khurram

T-123456 said:


> Congratulations Pakistan.
> So,when do we get a few?



Whenever you need them, they're right here.

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## The Deterrent

HRK said:


> Who many warhead it can carry .... my guess 3 .... ??


Yes.

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## xyxmt

They are all there in Missile chest, waiting for opportune time for announcement.
Pakistan's missile policy is "need to show Basis"

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## Frankenstein9321

Why cant we use these sort of missles for air defense?? We need to make a air defense shield to counter supersonic and subsonic missles??

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## CHACHA"G"

*Hello all
YYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
ALLAH - o - AKBAR .......

Great news ,
My blood is Green , But what if I say u all even this is not the reason of US's sanctions !!!!!! There is a big surprise waiting for all of us..............
Pakistan Zindabad 

And Just look at the NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its speak lot ............. a lot...............





#Pakistan took minimal measures to restore deterrence equation, by successfully testing #MIRV #missile, Ababeel. The system has been developed to defeat #Indian Ballistic #Missile #Defence (#BMD) shield. The test will definitely restore #deterrence stability and regional peace is critical.

#RAF team tried to figure out an approximate range of the missile. And the result shows the missile will cover whole India



*

@The Sandman , @Khafee ,

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## farhan_9909

Haan to pir ye cheeni copy hai or north Korean?

Pehle se puch lu apne indian brothers se.

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## dilpakistani

is it just me or anyone else has also rapped the repeat button ?

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## rana MRL

Ithay rakh ..
Congratulation to team pakistan ......

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## Taimur Khurram

Erl said:


> 2200 km guys. Don't look at Iran oherwise i will *****
> 
> View attachment 371450



No promises! 

Since Trump's in office, I think it's safe to say your nuclear programme will be back in business.

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## The Eagle

foxtrot1 said:


> *So as China said that they will be helping Pakistan in developing missiles.* Well this is a good start, this project was long ongoing one. The design confirms that it is MIRV, Max two or 3 warheads, 150kT total 450 kT of yield.



I am quoting you here and trying to tell you.. don't propagate things wrongly as the same will not just be helping you but all of us readers here and for quality of the thread as well. And don't repeat the same that i hope wouldn't need a reminder again. Just to make some sense, what on earth one thinks that A party announced to help B party a few weeks ago and we see a test, was that alien tech or what.,.... so don't divert the topic.

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## graphican

RedStar86 said:


> This is amazing, super capability! I don't get whats the difference between this new missile and the Shaheen 3..
> Shaheen is a longer range from what i remember, so whats the point in going back to a shorter range?
> This is very interesting, and we are very Proud!!



Shaheen-III and Abbabeel may have different navigational and evasive mechanisms. 
From the looks of it, Abbabeel is a totally different ball game.

Shaheen-III





Abbabeel

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## foxtrot1

HRK said:


> Who many warhead it can carry .... my guess 3 .... ??



3 150kt each most probably or 3 tactical ones. Since this missile is not bulky.

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## Samlee

Erl said:


> 2200 km guys. Don't look at Iran oherwise i will *****
> 
> View attachment 371450



No Tension Bro There Is Someone Else In Our Mind

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## rana MRL

Elephants.. east or west right now ....

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## Samlee

T-123456 said:


> Congratulations Pakistan.
> So,when do we get a few?



Any Time

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## The Deterrent

graphican said:


> Shaheen-III and Abbabeel may have different navigational and evasive mechanisms. Also Shaheen-III seems to carry MIRVs with lesser fuel backing them. Ababeel has much larger fuel behind MIRVs, which mean Abbabeel could throw them fast and at longer distances.
> 
> From the looks of it, Abbabeel is a totally different ball game.
> 
> Shaheen-III
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abbabeel



Nope, Shaheen-III delivers a unitary miniaturized warhead.

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## Snakebite

Look at the pace of these tests... 3rd one in a month... 2017 has been good so far

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## The Sandman

farhan_9909 said:


> Haan to pir ye cheeni copy hai or north Korean?
> 
> Pehle se puch lu apne indian brothers se.


They're gonna come up with 2 theories
1) This test never happened ISPR made a fake propaganda video by joining old videos.
2) They will call it a repainted Chinese missile.



CHACHA"G" said:


> *Hello all
> YYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> ALLAH - o - AKBAR .......
> 
> Great news ,
> My blood is Green , But what if I say u all even this is not the reason of US's sanctions !!!!!! There is a big surprise waiting for all of us..............
> Pakistan Zindabad
> 
> And Just look at the NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its speak lot ............. a lot...............*
> 
> @The Sandman , @Khafee ,

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## saiyan0321

farhan_9909 said:


> Haan to pir ye cheeni copy hai or north Korean?
> 
> Pehle se puch lu apne indian brothers se.



Oh Bhai copy choro. Pehle pochu kahi fake tu nahi hain. :p :p :p you k ow our neighbor

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## Windjammer

foxtrot1 said:


> dude see this!!!!
> 
> *Pakistani engineers, with help from the Chinese, are also said to be in the advance stages of developing MIRV technology for its missiles. This would allow the military to fit several warheads on the same ballistic missile and then launch them at separate targets.
> *
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/mirv-technology-within-pakistani-grasp-now.82792/#ixzz4Wg4mphO6



*Date of the above thread.....Dec 1, 2010. *

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## graphican

The Deterrent said:


> Nope, Shaheen-III delivers a unitary miniaturized warhead.



Thanks for correcting. I have edited my post.


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## H!TchHiker

ABABEEL ....Now that is a name ....Congrats to all the team behind it and Pakistan.Indians be like " Show me its hitting the target.Look its flying wrongly.Changing colors .No its a fake"Or China ka jawab "..China has crossed all the lines Wait for indians now

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## bananarepublic

*CONTRATS AMAZING FEAT BY PAKISTAN...*

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## raihans

Alhamdulillah, heartiest congratulations to all involved in the program and the nation

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

looks like someone's air defence systems have gone down the drain .

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## Samlee

saiyan0321 said:


> Oh Bhai copy choro. Pehle pochu kahi fake tu nahi hain. :p :p :p you k ow our neighbor



Fire One Under Modi's Dhoti He Will Come to know How "Fake" It Is

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## Mrc

This is fake missile.... who can paint a missioe white... and i dont like the name....

Modi sarkar ki iay ho

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## The Eagle

foxtrot1 said:


> dude see this!!!!
> 
> *Pakistani engineers, with help from the Chinese, are also said to be in the advance stages of developing MIRV technology for its missiles. This would allow the military to fit several warheads on the same ballistic missile and then launch them at separate targets.
> *
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/mirv-technology-within-pakistani-grasp-now.82792/#ixzz4Wg4mphO6



2010 thread... and Indian tech is not purely cultivated in the lands of Bihar and UP at all but with the help of someone indeed. What China said shouldn't be new for you..... Not the dude thing at all... we are enough educated and don't need your reminder in this case as we are aware so is everyone.... Did anyone said Indigenous A to Z etc ..... The last post for such so no further derailing...... Hope you got it.

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## rashid.sarwar

The color of gas exhaust changed, this can't happen if the test is real.

The missile too skinny to be called a missile.

Where is the MIRV, we can't see it.

Please believe in our analysis, this is a fake computer generated video spread by Pakistan army.

Waiting to hear the expert analysis from our obsessed neighbour.....

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## Lucky Breeze

"Ababeel" Perfect name for MIRV

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## jermankill

T-123456 said:


> Congratulations Pakistan.
> So,when do we get a few?


when ever u want

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## rana MRL

My wild guess if when ever we have SLBM in future ... then Ababeel missile will be strong candidate to be SLBM .....

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## biloo700

Nice

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## foxtrot1

Samlee said:


> *US Is Offering You The Full Range of Defence Tech Yet Your Rear End Is On Fire When China Does That With Pakistan*



India does not actually have this doctrine of using western equipment on the missiles. Because after 98 the sanctions were put on and Indian space program was hit by delays of 4 years.

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## Hareeb

Pakistan Paendabad. 
Name of missle is just love. ❤

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## Windjammer

The new DG ISPR should be named.....BARKAT.

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## RedStar86

it seems like a challenging effort to independently maneuver three nuclear warheads.. I wonder how far apart they could potentially be dispersed.

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## foxtrot1

Windjammer said:


> *Date of the above thread.....Dec 1, 2010. *



the project took more than 10 years to finish with Chinese expertise this means. But now you have this capability. Any guess on yield? Most probably tactical warhead?

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## HRK

The Deterrent said:


> Yes.



Is it tested to its full range ....?

Missile Wali Sarkar Zindabad ....

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## Fawad alam

Masha Allah
Congratulations to all the Pakistanis specially all the scientists and engineers of Pakistan Missile program ,May God bless you all.

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## Farah Sohail

Windjammer said:


> The new DG ISPR should be named.....BARKAT.



New DG ISPR or new CJCSC gen Zubair Hayat should be named barkat? I think he must be the one, who must hv been pushing for all these tests lately..and being DG SPD earlier..he already must hav prior info of all our missiles waiting to be tested..so maybe he pushed and gave a go ahead for all these?

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## The Deterrent

HRK said:


> Is it tested to its full range ....?
> 
> Missile Wali Sarkar Zindabad ....


_Iss jagah se aagay hamaray parr jaltay hain 
_
Don't expect anything too much. The limit set by Shaheen-III will hold.

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## foxtrot1

The Eagle said:


> 2010 thread... and Indian tech is not purely cultivated in the lands of Bihar and UP at all but with the help of someone indeed. What China said shouldn't be new for you..... Not the dude thing at all... we are enough educated and don't need your reminder in this case as we are aware so is everyone.... Did anyone said Indigenous A to Z etc ..... The last post for such so no further derailing...... Hope you got it.



I am only quoting Defence Pak and not making my own stories. You carry on

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## rana MRL

Now indian analysist become colour blinded for sure ,, they see whole rainbow colour in Ababeel ...  ..

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## Windjammer

The Deterrent said:


> _Iss jagah se aagay hamaray parr jaltay hain
> _
> Don't expect anything too much. The limit set by Shaheen-III will hold.



Whatever happened to the NOTAMS.

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## saiyan0321

The Deterrent said:


> _Iss jagah se aagay hamaray parr jaltay hain
> _
> Don't expect anything too much. The limit set by Shaheen-III will hold.



I think its time to add ababeel in your image as well. :p :p :p

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## Samlee

Lucky Breeze said:


> "Ababeel" Perfect name for MIRV















*Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the Companions of the Elephant?*
*Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray?*
*And He sent against them Flights of Birds,*
*Striking them with stones of baked clay.*
*Then did He make them like an empty field of stalks and straw, (of which the corn) has been eaten up. *

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## Windjammer

Farah Sohail said:


> New DG ISPR or new CJCSC gen Zubair Hayat should be named barkat? I think he must be the one, who must hv been pushing for all these tests lately..and being DG SPD earlier..he already must hav prior info of all our missiles waiting to be tested..so maybe he pushed and gave a go ahead for all these?


Lets call one Khushhaal Khan and the other Barkat.

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## The Eagle

The Deterrent said:


> Iss jagah se aagay hamaray parr jaltay hain



hahahahhaha.... Sarkar kia yaad dila diya..... Paros se koi hota tu ma keh deta k janab khayal se ... phattar sar par parhay ge..... JK.....



foxtrot1 said:


> I am only quoting Defence Pak and not making my own stories. You carry on



You are quoting unnecessarily which is not the subject at all but you are alone interested to bring in such reference and for a reason.... enjoy your stay be productive and educate us as well rather than repeating the things that we & everyone know exactly so no need to refer again & again until & unless, obsessed. 
Regards,

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## Tipu7

@The Eagle @Side-Winder@Windjammer 

Which country currently posses MIRV capable Ballistic Missiles?

USA, Russia, China, UK, France. Any one else?

Israel Jerico 3 & Indian Agni 5 is also claimed to be MIRV capable.

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## Muhammad Omar

2017    turning out to be a golden year 


2017 Tested SLCM (Successful) 
2017 Tested ABABEEL (MIRV Capable) (Successful) 


ALLAH O AKBAR MASHA ALLAH ALHAMDULILLAH

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## graphican

Few days ago I had asked question that what are our missile engineers working on after producing Nasr and there has been 5-6 yeasr since it was tested. And now I have the answers... our beloved, engineers were working on;

Surface to Sea Missiles

Submarine Launched Land Attack cruise missile
Babur Sea to Sea missile
And MIRV
These are more achievements than I had wished for.

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## Suff Shikan

Side-Winder said:


> Pak successfully conducted first flight test of SSM #ABABEEL, Rg 2200 Km. #COAS congrats team and Pak Armed Forces for landmk achievement.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176
> *The missile is MIRV capable *- LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
> 
> View attachment 371448
> View attachment 371449



ALLAH HU AKBER

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## 90ArsalanLeo

Bashido said:


> What is purpose of these missiles with such a range because we already have Ballistic missile. Please ignore my limited knowledge.



The Ballistic Missiles Ghauri and Shaheen can only carry 1 nuclear warhead that can hit just 1 target Ababeel on the other hand has MIRV (Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicle) Technology which means the missile can carry multiple separate nuclear warhead with each having the ability to hit separate targets thus wrecking more havoc.

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## foxtrot1

The Eagle said:


> You are quoting unnecessarily which is not the subject at all but you are alone interested to bring in such reference and for a reason.... enjoy your stay be productive and educate us as well rather than repeating the things that we & everyone know exactly so no need to refer again & again until & unless, obsessed.
> Regards,



No, I brought that reference to see the time line. you guys landed up onto something else. So basically a little more than 10 years it took.


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## Samlee

foxtrot1 said:


> India does not actually have this doctrine of using western equipment on the missiles. Because after 98 the sanctions were put on and Indian space program was hit by delays of 4 years.



Explain LEMOA Then


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## MadDog

Bashido said:


> What is purpose of these missiles with such a range because we already have Ballistic missile. Please ignore my limited knowledge.


This one is MIRV capable tested for the first time, can carry multiple warheads & strike multiple targets. It enhances first strike capability and is difficult to be countered by any missile defence system.

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## HRK

The Deterrent said:


> _Iss jagah se aagay hamaray parr jaltay hain
> _
> Don't expect anything too much. The limit set by Shaheen-III will hold.



Sir jee paar nahi jalain gay ....because it seems it was tested for 1500KM -1800KM with in the geographical boundary of Pakistan ....

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## 90ArsalanLeo

countryman said:


> Rocket science isn't limited to range, it is test of some improvement in technology. All rocket propellant are not cheap, eco-friendly, and efficient. Though it is successful, but even failed attempts contribute knowledge and knowledge gained this way helps us correct our mistakes.



Its also is the first Pakistani Ballistic Missile to have the MIRV Technology.

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## BHarwana

Maithil Brahmin said:


> Is there any official confirmation regarding MIRV?


Go to the first page of the thread there is an officially issued paper.


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## Suff Shikan

Devil Soul said:


> *ALLAH-U-AKBAR
> "Ababeel"...the bird which destroyed the elephants .... 2200 Range ......... can reach Israel... *



SubhanALLAH .... Perfect name for the enemies of Islam

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## ghauri05

a great achievement indeed...Long Live Pak Scintists and Engineers

hathi walo k sare plans khrab ho rhe he

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## War Thunder

What most of you don't understand is .....we don't want to state the range of any missile beyond 2,500 because it gives night mares to certain people sitting in a certain tiny piece of land...

Do we have missiles capable of hitting beyond 3,000kn or even 4,000 kms? Yeah we do.....Do we want to state the correct range? No...



Imagine what would happen......Pakistan tests MIRV capable missile that can hit the mother of all evil? You get what I'm saying here? Don't follow the stated numbers for range

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## foxtrot1

Samlee said:


> Explain LEMOA Then



LEMOA is for logistic and has nothing to do with integrated missile program.

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## countryman

90ArsalanLeo said:


> Its also is the first Pakistani Ballistic Missile to have the MIRV Technology.



Yes, and MIRV alone is a significant value in terms of significance of test.


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## Arsalan 345

MIRV capable means indian ballistic missile interceptors can't destroy it.it's a nightmare for indians.i think pakistan has done a great job.this shows that we can make any type of missile with any kind of technology but indians beg israelis and russians to make interceptors.lol

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## Bratva

HRK said:


> Is it tested to its full range ....?
> 
> Missile Wali Sarkar Zindabad ....



Missile Wali Sarkar Alreaday Predicted this test two weeks ago... Gotta keep his next future predictions in mind as well. He usually predicts events two weeks before it happens.  



The Deterrent said:


> Edit: I don't know what kind of fits these morons will throw after we unveil the MIRVed system. Let me write before-hand some things that they will say:
> 1. Its just an SLV.
> 2. It just jettisons multiple warheads, they are not guided because pakis don't have any knowledge of independent trajectory insertions.
> 3. It looks so fragile, its not mobile.
> 4. The range is not enough for independent trajectory insertions.
> 5. China gifted it to Pakistan.
> and so on.





The Deterrent said:


> The former, but let's just say the dia problem has been solved in a fairly obvious way. You'll see soon hopefully.





The Deterrent said:


> I would provide you with the exact time frame, however the project is lagging behind, a lot. Delays keep popping out, but lets hope this time Pakistan goes through with it in one go (unlike Shaheen-III's multiple launch delays). This is understandable, given the complexity of the system and Pakistan's relative inexperience in this domain.

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## The Eagle

Tipu7 said:


> @The Eagle @Side-Winder@Windjammer
> 
> Which country currently posses MIRV capable Ballistic Missiles?
> 
> USA, Russia, China, UK, France. Any one else?
> 
> Israel Jerico 3 & Indian Agni 5 is also claimed to be MIRV capable.



You are right... these are the details till now.


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## 90ArsalanLeo

somebozo said:


> the name "Ababeel" indicates in direction of MIRV.
> 
> Thats what Ababeel exactly did, each had three pebbles..one in their mouth two in their feet and they dropped it on to enemy...



No need to speculate whether it has MIRV or not Because it has

"Ababeel has a maximum range of 2,200 kilometres and is capable of delivering multiple warheads using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology, an ISPR press release said."


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We don't have too much interest in extended ranges , our focus is regional security and deterrant

And also ranges are always classified

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## Samlee

foxtrot1 said:


> LEMOA is for logistic and has nothing to do with integrated missile program.



LEMOA Has Facilitated DTTI Thus India Has Got A Wide Range of Defence and Strategic Technologies


----------



## Zarvan



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## HRK

Tipu7 said:


> @The Eagle @Side-Winder@Windjammer
> 
> Which country currently posses MIRV capable Ballistic Missiles?
> 
> USA, Russia, China, UK, France. Any one else?
> 
> Israel Jerico 3 & Indian Agni 5 is also claimed to be MIRV capable.



India do have the capability of MIRV

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## saiyan0321

Bratva said:


> Missile Wali Sarkar Alreaday Predicted this test two weeks ago... Gotta keep his next future predictions in mind as well. He usually predicts events two weeks before it happens.



Oh yeah. @The Deterrent has been spot on. Next time whatever prediction he makes it. We all must take it to the word.


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## The Eagle

Maithil Brahmin said:


> Is there any official confirmation regarding MIRV?



Sir, go through the thread as well...... However, as follows...

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## 90ArsalanLeo

Waiting for Indian Media and Defense Specialists Verdict or more like Approval hahahahahaha

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## rana MRL

IRBM ,, with MIRV ,, , with more speed , more accurate navigation ,, countermeasures .. have to be next step ....


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## Hassan Guy

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/201...sfully-test-fires-long-range-missile-ababeel/


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## Aawish

This is how a *multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle* (*MIRV*) ballistic missile warhead should look like, containing multiple warheads.

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## rana MRL

90ArsalanLeo said:


> Waiting for Indian Media and Defense Specialists Verdict or more like Approval hahahahahaha


Naa I think thaey go for eye checkup ....


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## jaydee

OMG!!! 
I almost fell from my chair. Alhamdulillah for this test. Didn't expect two back to back big emphatic statements to the world with two huge missile tests. India was questioning if we had MIRV capability. What an answer. Makes me wonder if more surprises are in store for us. 
It also makes you realize that the capabilities that we are showing must be only the tip of an ice berg. With many more undeclared capabilities. 
Made my day.

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## ito

I don't think India will be ruffled by this test. India knows that Pakistan is going to go MIRV sometime in future. What India needs is to work and improve for a BMD system that can take on MIRV.

Anyway, good for Pakistanis.

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## Ajaxpaul

I don't know how it has changed anything for India. India already has a neighbor who has all types of missile technology which technically can be used against us. 

For that we are going for the ballastic missile shields. 

But saying that it's good news for pakistan that they have mastered MIRV.

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## HRK

Bratva said:


> Missile Wali Sarkar Alreaday Predicted this test two weeks ago... Gotta keep his next future predictions in mind as well. He usually predicts events two weeks before it happens.



Bhai Mureedeen khas pir ke kashaf bina ijazat aam nahi karte .... srif sunte hai oor samaj ne ki kooshih karte hai ...

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## 90ArsalanLeo

RedStar86 said:


> his is amazing, super capability! I don't get whats the difference between this new missile and the Shaheen 3..
> Shaheen is a longer range from what i remember, so whats the point in going back to a shorter range?
> This is very interesting, and we are very Proud!!



MIRV IS THE DIFFERENCE MIRV

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## jaydee

Does anybody know how many MIRV's are in this new missile? 
@SUPARCO


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## countryman

Arsalan Zaheer said:


> MIRV capable means indian ballistic missile interceptors can't destroy it.it's a nightmare for indians.i think pakistan has done a great job.this shows that we can make any type of missile with any kind of technology but indians beg israelis and russians to make interceptors.lol



Though, it's nearly impossible to intercept re-entry vehicle anyway, but now it got dodgy as well. Defense system will spend sometime thinking 'Lawaan lawaan kaino lawaan' if the resources at hand are constrained.

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## Panther 57

jaydee said:


> OMG!!!
> I almost fell from my chair. Alhamdulillah for this test. Didn't expect two back to back big emphatic statements to the world with two huge missile tests. India was questioning if we had MIRV capability. What an answer. Makes me wonder if more surprises are in store for us.
> It also makes you realize that the capabilities that we are showing must be only the tip of an ice berg. With many more undeclared capabilities.
> Made my day.


خاطر جمع رکہیں

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## The Eagle

foxtrot1 said:


> So basically a little more than 10 years it took.



What is the point other than unavoidable circumstances? Mind it, we are not enjoying the friendly love like India but still, we have it and right on time. Previously we needed tactical nukes for Cold-Feet Start-1 and now this one for the new threat of Cold-Feet-Start-2. If it has to be calcualted like late then I am sure, none made any promise of date or day or claimed to achieve such capability however, you will be surprised in upcoming, months or a year about "unbelievable from Pakistan" tings. We had our need, our resources, our doctrine, priorities and many other things and still, I am not pointing anything specific Indian program here but still, be a impartial analysts and see the Indian claim w.r.t. expected date of any achievement and the day actually did... There are many programs you can read about... Therefore, I have been saying, no need to remind as such as we are aware and none every claimed officially anything in this regard.

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## Samlee

90ArsalanLeo said:


> Waiting for Indian Media and Defense Specialists Verdict or more like Approval hahahahahaha



*Why On Earth Do You Need The Approval of People Whose Own Missiles Are Stunning Failiures*

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## Hassan Guy

Bloody fantastic, ALOT of bonds are going to be on fire


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## foxtrot1

Samlee said:


> LEMOA Has Facilitated DTTI Thus India Has Got A Wide Range of Defence and Strategic Technologies



US never shares strategic technologies with conditions and missile program is never included. May be you know more than India's missile program than the Indians itself. Good!

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## M@rKhor

The Deterrent said:


> Nope, Shaheen-III delivers a unitary miniaturized warhead.


You need to add Ababeel in your profile pic now...


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## Robinhood Pandey

HRK said:


> India do have the capability of MIRV



Nope we dont have MIRV tech as of now . .but this test will push us to pursue it ASAP.

Congratulations BTW.

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## 90ArsalanLeo

sady said:


> Waiting for Dawn News and it's comments section to drum up poverty and illteracy because we spend so much on defence and 'useless' missiles. They deny the command of Allah.



DAWN want us to fight our enemy india with pencil, ballpoint, assignment registers & A+ grade quizzes we are pushed into spending heavily in making and buying weapons because of son of a bit*h india the worst neighbour any country can get so if i were to choose between survivability and education i would go for survival in a heart beat

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## maximuswarrior

Freakin' awesome!!! Indians are going to wet their undies. They didn't get over Babur III and now this LMAO I gues it is fake too LMAO

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## My-Analogous

Bashido said:


> What is purpose of these missiles with such a range because we already have Ballistic missile. Please ignore my limited knowledge.



*MIRV technology *
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targetable_reentry_vehicle*


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## 90ArsalanLeo

Samlee said:


> *Why On Earth Do You Need The Approval of People Whose Own Missiles Are Stunning Failiures*



Its SARCASM BRO I WAS REFERRING TO THEIR FUNNY & PATHETIC OBJECTIONS ON SLCM BABUR 3 LIKE IT CHANGES COLOUR OR HOW DOES IT TRAVEL 655 KM IN 8 SECONDS THEY CAN SCREW THEMSELVES WITH THEIR OPINIONS FOR ALL I OR OTHER PAKISTANIS SHOULD CARE.

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

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## BHarwana

ito said:


> I don't think India will be ruffled by this test. India knows that Pakistan is going to go MIRV sometime in future. What India needs is to work and improve for a BMD system that can take on MIRV.
> 
> Anyway, good for Pakistanis.


India complained about the color of Babur 3. Did you liked it this time??

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## Falcon26

Pakistan never fails to pull one more trick from its bag. Congrats! Very bold test.

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## ito

Robinhood Pandey said:


> Nope we dont have MIRV tech as of now . .but this test will push us to pursue it ASAP.
> 
> Congratulations BTW.



India doesn't have MIRV but has MRV.


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## Falcon26

ito said:


> I don't think India will be ruffled by this test. India knows that Pakistan is going to go MIRV sometime in future. What India needs is to work and improve for a BMD system that can take on MIRV.
> 
> Anyway, good for Pakistanis.



How do you intend to take out a MIRV? Has it ever been done before?

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## ghauri05

rana MRL said:


> My wild guess if when ever we have SLBM in future ... then Ababeel missile will be strong candidate to be SLBM .....


before Ababeel i thought we can use Shaheen 1A as SLBM which can provide us roughly a range close to 1000 km but after Ababeel no other missile suits that role.

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## ito

Falcon26 said:


> How do you intend to take out a MIRV? Has it ever been done before?



Actually India doesn't need MIRV to take on Pakistan. India needs MIRV to take on China. MIRV is useful when your enemy has a large land to cover.


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## ArrowHead

Waiting for news mentioning Vinashkaari Parmanu hathyaar

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## sady

90ArsalanLeo said:


> DAWN want us to fight our enemy india with pencil, ballpoint, assignment registers & A+ grade quizzes we are pushed into spending heavily in making and buying weapons because of son of a bit*h india the worst neighbour any country can get so if i were to choose between survivability and education i would go for survival in a heart beat


This is called as Psychological warfare. Common people do not understand and are easily swayed by gimmicks. The Dawn or ET are not naive that they do not know defence is as imp as social development. They won't tell who is stopping Gov from making teachers attend schools and stop ghost teachers. Who is stopping gov from taking schools back from being stables for village animals. They won't go there because they won't get paid in overseas accounts by their 'masters'. Maligning defence and working as fifth coloumnists is their job.

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## Hassan Guy

Maithil Brahmin said:


> Maybe Russian's will create something called S-600 which will have laser beam to destroy MIRV. We will buy it. No problem.


The burning bond is strong with this one.

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## The Eagle

*MIRV-capable missiles[edit]*

RS-28 Sarmat
Ababeel-1 (2,200 km) (Pakistan)[7]
R-36M2 (SS-18)
RSM-54 R-29RMU2 "Layner"
RSM-56 R-30 "Bulava"
RS-26 Rubezh
RS-24 Yars
UR-100N (SS-19)
RT-2UTTH "Topol M" (SS-27)
RSM-54 R-29RMU "Sineva"
Jericho 3
Agni-V[8]
DF-5B
DF-31A, DF-31B
DF-41
M51 (missile)
M45 (missile)
Minuteman III
UGM-133 Trident II (D5LE)
LGM-118 Peacekeeper (14,000 km) (United States) - Decommissioned
JL-2
*See also[edit]*

See, Pakistan.............. congrats... again everyone.....

@Tipu7 

Agni-V is still mentioned in the same list.... but further described in link as ......(my previous post was incomplete)


In future, Agni-V is expected to feature Multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle (MIRVs) with each missile being capable of carrying 2–10 separate nuclear warheads.[42] Each warhead can be assigned to a different target, separated by hundreds of kilometres; alternatively, two or more warheads can be assigned to one target.[41] MIRVs ensure a credible second strike capability even with few missiles.

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## Zarvan

Falcon26 said:


> Pakistan never fails to pull one more trick from its bag. Congrats! Very bold test.


Sir we have lot more tricks we only don't declare them because of fear of sanctions. We are working on various weapons including ICBM

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## rana MRL

countryman said:


> Though, it's nearly impossible to intercept re-entry vehicle anyway, but now it got dodgy as well. Defense system will spend sometime thinking 'Lawaan lawaan kaino lawaan' if the resources at hand are constrained.


Laean laean tere nal ankhian ...


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## ito

BHarwana said:


> India complained about the color of Babur 3. Did you liked it this time??



Why do you want to troll your own success? Enjoy the moment.

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## Sulman Badshah

Maithil Brahmin said:


> Is there any official confirmation regarding MIRV?


ISPR issue a statement regarding it being MIRV capable


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## foxtrot1

The Eagle said:


> What is the point other than unavoidable circumstances? Mind it, we are not enjoying the friendly love like India but still, we have it and right on time. Previously we needed tactical nukes for Cold-Feet Start-1 and now this one for the new threat of Cold-Feet-Start-2. If it has to be calcualted like late then I am sure, none made any promise of date or day or claimed to achieve such capability however, you will be surprised in upcoming, months or a year about "unbelievable from Pakistan" tings. We had our need, our resources, our doctrine, priorities and many other things and still, I am not pointing anything specific Indian program here but still, be a impartial analysts and see the Indian claim w.r.t. expected date of any achievement and the day actually did... There are many programs you can read about... Therefore, I have been saying, no need to remind as such as we are aware and none every claimed officially anything in this regard.



Indian missile program does not enjoy any friendly love either. As I mentioned India's space program got delayed by years due to sanctions and India had to develop it's own technologies and neither there was any China and Russians were very diplomatic when it comes to sensitive technology.

It may be a threat to Israel because it will take their anti BM weapon time to reach and intercept the missile and may miss it before it gets into terminal phase. MIRV or No MIRV once the warhead is released it is extremely tough to intercept the warhead.

So India's ABM is mainly developed to take down the missile before it gets into terminal phase and when any BM is launched from Pakistan, India has advantage to intercept before it gets into terminal phase due to shorter displacement.

So MIRV is simply more economical than single warhead missile, that's the only use for Pakistan.


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## Windjammer

@HRK , Dear, waiting for all the close ups and dissected images and arrows.

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## Falcon26

ito said:


> Actually India doesn't need MIRV to take on Pakistan. India needs MIRV to take on China. MIRV is useful when your enemy has a large land to cover.



That's understandable but my point was isn't the whole point of MIRV technology to render ABM systems useless? 

With this test and Babur 3, Pakistan has just rised the stakes and in a massive way.

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## My-Analogous

Stop please i am begging you!. No more isolation please.

Alhumdullah RAAB-UL-ALAMEEN. Congrats to my whole nation and the whole team of the project as well as institutions involved in it. I wish soon we will have ICBM. We have all technology we just need to add another stage on these missiles. All current Pakistani missiles are single stage.

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## Sparrow_Chirya

Mubarak to all. For all those who think that chinese helped us in these projects this is not true. Shaheen and Ababel are completely indigenous designs. No one shares such important technology with anyone. believe it or not it is true.

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## rana MRL

Hassan Guy said:


> Bloody fantastic, ALOT of bonds are going to be on fire


Yeah burnol needed huge needed ..


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## Hassan Guy

Huge success for the country.


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## ArrowHead

Perfect name

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## battle tank

congrats to my pakistani brothers another milestone achieved and a good reply to USA sanctions

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## Jungibaaz

Only a month in to 2017 and we're gifted news of the SLCM and now MIRV. Congrats everyone.

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## The Eagle

@Manticore @Emmie @Jungibaaz 

Can't go to 1st and 13th page on this thread and am receiving error, kindly check.

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## Sloth 22

Congratulations to Pakistan for being so quick at MIRV tech. 

Ensure it reaches media. Maybe then our BMD program can start moving again. 



Samlee said:


> LEMOA Has Facilitated DTTI Thus India Has Got A Wide Range of Defence and Strategic Technologies



Till now " Zero " is the number of item India has gained through DTTI. 

They are offering us EMALS , but no reactors , neither allowing use of Russian ones , from where do we power those EMALS? 

Similarly they are offering us JV of next generation JAVELINS , but not allowing us access to its Algorithms. What advantage do we get then ? 

Similarly Mini Drones and Local Assembly , but not allowing use of Indian Raw Materials. How do we bring down their unit cost then ? 

They have also stopped Israel from selling us Arrow , David's Sling and Iron Dome systems and asking us to buy a more costly and less effective PAC3. 

India will continue to buy P8 , Helicopters and Transport Aircrafts , but not anything else. May be a F16 assembly line , but with Trump, that's not happening .

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## maximuswarrior

Areesh said:


> Its a fake test. Look at the color of the missile. It changes from white to black to violet to indigo to orange.



LMAO Look at the birds flying. It is fake guys.

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## SipahSalar

Allah hu Akbar. This is a great milestone.

That said, we need to understand that its is a MIRV capable missile *but MIRV capability has not been tested. *Pakistan only tested the viability of the mother-missile that will carry the missiles into the stratosphere. It will be 1-4 years before the actual MIRV capability of the missile is tested *by actually launching the Re-entry vehicles.*

MIRV capability test looks something like this:

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## My-Analogous

The Eagle said:


> MIRV, Multiple Warheads with multiple target engaging, 2200 KM of first test, name is ABABEEL-1.... more to come.... enough said....
> 
> What a start of 2017... Babur-III SLCM (second strike capability)
> Ababeel-1, MIRV.............. Congrats.... another doctrine by the rival is frozen now as Cold-Feet-Start-Doctrine-2.
> 
> A long due that we achieved, a blessing of ALLAH indeed.



This is isolation effects bhai and we have to remind world that please don't forget us and we are feeling lonely because of Indian isotation

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## maximuswarrior

Falcon26 said:


> How do you intend to take out a MIRV? Has it ever been done before?





Man, what did I tell you guys about MIRV not so long ago. This is just a dream come true!



Jungibaaz said:


> Only a month in to 2017 and we're gifted news of the SLCM and now MIRV. Congrats everyone.



Just incredible!

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## Falcon26

SipahSalar said:


> Allah hu Akbar. This is a great milestone.
> 
> That said, we need to understand that its is a MIRV capable missile *but MIRV capability has not been tested. *Pakistan only tested the viability of the mother-missile that will carry the missiles into the stratosphere. It will be 1-4 years before the actual MIRV capability of the missile is tested *by actually launching the Re-entry vehicles.*
> 
> MIRV capability test looks something like this:



You are basing this grand claim on?

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## Darth Vader

Bashido said:


> What is purpose of these missiles with such a range because we already have Ballistic missile. Please ignore my limited knowledge.


Mirv capability


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## Michael Corleone

Areesh said:


> @Mohammed Khaled @Bilal9 @BDforever
> 
> We have started 2017 on a roll. First SLCM and now a MIRV missile. Congratz to you guys too.


nice  all you guys now need is to get em on a ICBM and then youre done... no more indian brag or threat of nukes...

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## Awan68

graphican said:


> Shaheen-III and Abbabeel may have different navigational and evasive mechanisms.
> From the looks of it, Abbabeel is a totally different ball game.
> 
> Shaheen-III
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abbabeel


Buddy was shaheen 3 mirv or is ababeel our first mirv missle?


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## Ajaxpaul

Mohammed Khaled said:


> nice  all you guys now need is to get em on a ICBM and then youre done... no more indian brag or threat of nukes...



Actually india has a no first use policy.


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## SipahSalar

Falcon26 said:


> You are basing this grand claim on?


Because if they had actually tested the MIRV capability, 

1. They would have said so. They only mentioned testing a MIRV capable missile, but not the MIRV capability itself.
2. We would have seen it


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## The Eagle

foxtrot1 said:


> Indian missile program does not enjoy any friendly love either. As I mentioned India's space program got delayed by years due to sanctions and India had to develop it's own technologies and neither there was any China and Russians were very diplomatic when it comes to sensitive technology.
> 
> It may be a threat to Israel because it will take their anti BM weapon time to reach and intercept the missile and may miss it before it gets into terminal phase. MIRV or No MIRV once the warhead is released it is extremely tough to intercept the warhead.
> 
> So India's ABM is mainly developed to take down the missile before it gets into terminal phase and when any BM is launched from Pakistan, India has advantage to intercept before it gets into terminal phase due to shorter displacement.
> 
> So MIRV is simply more economical than single warhead missile, that's the only use for Pakistan.



So we are already check-mate by India and uselessly achieved MIRV Tech.... I am really afraid and I am sure, there will be no issue in Indian Quarters at all after this test and they will be laughing at us for something which is already obsolete due to Indian BMD. 




My-Analogous said:


> This is isolation effects bhai and we have to remind world that please don't forget us and we are feeling lonely because of Indian isotation



Sometimes wise-one says, the taste of their own medicine. Such so-called isolation etc were mere claims for the satisfaction of their own populace however, Indian Isolation Call and US sanctions became blessing in disguise for us that at-least felt necessity and pursued the goals without any fear but trust on ALLAH, striving day & night and doing it for the nation.

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## ghauri05

Maithil Brahmin said:


> Maybe Russian's will create something called S-600 which will have laser beam to destroy MIRV. We will buy it. No problem.


Abi kl tk to Modi sahab India ko no 1 defence exporter bnane ka keh rahe te r ap aik aesa system jo bna hi ni pehle hi import krne ja rhe he

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## maximuswarrior

My-Analogous said:


> Stop please i am begging you!. No more isolation please.
> 
> Alhumdullah RAAB-UL-ALAMEEN. Congrats to my whole nation and the whole team of the project as well as institutions involved in it. I wish soon we will have ICBM. We have all technology we just need to add another stage on these missiles. All current Pakistani missiles are single stage.



More isolation. Please!

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## The Eagle

Awan68 said:


> ababeel our first mirv missle?



Sir, this is the first time and Yes.

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## singlefighter

Bashido said:


> I am not against any research. I am trying to understand SSM. does it mean Surface to space here.?



Surface to surface missile with multiple warhead on a single missile which through the more than one warhead when its not far away from target

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## JamD

The best days are those on which you wake up to such news!  Congratulations everyone!

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## maximuswarrior

singlefighter said:


> Surface to surface missile with multiple warhead on a single missile which through the more than one warhead when its not far away from target



This is also going to make its way to sea based capability.

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## BHarwana

Awan68 said:


> Buddy was shaheen 3 mirv or is ababeel our first mirv missle?


Ababeel is the first mirv missile, Pakistan has achieved the range before but the re-entry system and MIRV is what was tested here.

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## Sloth 22

Falcon26 said:


> How do you intend to take out a MIRV? Has it ever been done before?



More than the missiles, it needs lots of costly satellites up there, plus lots of other things which costs too much. 

Interceptor missile is the most easy part of a BMD. 

The target date for first such satellite launch is 2018 end. Lets see what happens.


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## Mrc

From terrain hugging cm to MARV to MIRV .... missile developement on right track

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## Mughal-Prince

Windjammer said:


> It first appears like the Shaheen-3 but a closer look reveals a different weapon altogether.
> Awesome, congrats to all my country fellows.



I was wrongfully had an impression for long that they are building MIRV with Shaheen. But when today I heard Ababel I thought man what the heck they are upto and now at DEF-PK I find out its MIRV Ooo Bhains it surprises me. Indeed a whole new level of weapon system altogether.

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## Falcon26

Sloth 22 said:


> More than the missiles, it needs lots of costly satellites up there, plus lots of other things which costs too much.
> 
> Interceptor missile is the most easy part of a BMD.
> 
> The target date for first such satellite launch is 2018 end. Lets see what happens.



I think people need to research what MIRV technology is. The interceptor can only contain one missile while the incoming MIRV contains multiple warheads. Besides, decoys will be used so the interceptor simply can't know what warhead to go for. This is totally a massive game changer. To date no country has demonstrated an ability to take out MIRV technology, if I am not mistaken.

I hope people aren't making knee-jerk reactions instead of well calculated and rational statements.

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## Windjammer

Mughal-Prince said:


> I was wrongfully had an impression for long that they are building MIRV with Shaheen. But when today I heard Ababel I thought man what the heck they are upto and now at DEF-PK I find out its MIRV Ooo Bhains it surprises me. Indeed a whole new level of weapon system altogether.



Bhains key saath katta bi..

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## My-Analogous

BHarwana said:


> India complained about the color of Babur 3. Did you liked it this time??



Good this time we can show them our more colors.

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## BHarwana

SipahSalar said:


> Allah hu Akbar. This is a great milestone.
> 
> That said, we need to understand that its is a MIRV capable missile *but MIRV capability has not been tested. *Pakistan only tested the viability of the mother-missile that will carry the missiles into the stratosphere. It will be 1-4 years before the actual MIRV capability of the missile is tested *by actually launching the Re-entry vehicles.*
> 
> MIRV capability test looks something like this:


It was MIRV tested not the launcher. We tested the launcher a year ago. No one will show you his re-entry system and countering system.

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## Mrc

Guys be care full on twitter... while indian media is pouring on twitter to find a mentally challenged suicidal person who can declare this test a fake

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## SipahSalar

BHarwana said:


> It was MIRV tested not the launcher. We tested the launcher a year ago. No one will show you his re-entry system and countering system.


This is a new missile, please show me where was this missile tested before?


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## Sloth 22

Falcon26 said:


> I think people need to research what MIRV technology is. The interceptor can only contain one missile while the incoming MIRV contains multiple warheads. Besides, decoys will be used so the interceptor simply can't know what warhead to go for. This is totally a massive game changer. To do no country has demonstrated an ability to take out MIRV technology, if I am not mistaken.
> 
> I hope people aren't making knee-jerk reactions instead of well calculated and rational statements.



As you yourself said [indirectly ] , the most difficult part is detection and continuous surveillance.And it's the most costly part too. 

And yes, be ready for all claims from here, Media and our defence correspondents are not something we can be proud about.

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## BHarwana

SipahSalar said:


> This is a new missile, please show me where was this missile tested before?


Look closely at the image of the rocket and you will know which system was it and where was it tested


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## My-Analogous

foxtrot1 said:


> Indian missile program does not enjoy any friendly love either. As I mentioned India's space program got delayed by years due to sanctions and India had to develop it's own technologies and neither there was any China and Russians were very diplomatic when it comes to sensitive technology.
> 
> It may be a threat to Israel because it will take their anti BM weapon time to reach and intercept the missile and may miss it before it gets into terminal phase. MIRV or No MIRV once the warhead is released it is extremely tough to intercept the warhead.
> 
> So India's ABM is mainly developed to take down the missile before it gets into terminal phase and when any BM is launched from Pakistan, India has advantage to intercept before it gets into terminal phase due to shorter displacement.
> 
> So MIRV is simply more economical than single warhead missile, that's the only use for Pakistan.



Stop this bullshit, we all know how Russia export sensitive technology to India. Don't try to fool us here and read more about your space program

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## H!TchHiker

thesolar65 said:


> China is giving everything away to Pakistan to corner India. It is Chinese whoever says what does not matter.


Here comes the first one ...

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## Ajaxpaul

thesolar65 said:


> China is giving everything away to Pakistan to corner India. It is Chinese whoever says what does not matter.



Will it corner india ? Nope , then why the hurt ?


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## BHarwana

thesolar65 said:


> China is giving everything away to Pakistan to corner India. It is Chinese whoever says what does not matter.


Pandit jee China is a brother but this is Home made stuff. You have to research to develop such abilities.

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## Mrc

thesolar65 said:


> China is giving everything away to Pakistan to corner India. It is Chinese whoever says what does not matter.




Noble prize of mentally challenged

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## Sloth 22

My-Analogous said:


> Stop this bullshit, we all know how Russia export sensitive technology to India. Don't try to fool us here and read more about your space program



If what you are saying was true , India would have had been successful with Nirbhay, and would have had a MIRV delivery system by now.

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## My-Analogous

Sloth 22 said:


> Congratulations to Pakistan for being so quick at MIRV tech.
> 
> Ensure it reaches media. Maybe then our BMD program can start moving again.
> 
> 
> 
> Till now " Zero " is the number of item India has gained through DTTI.
> 
> They are offering us EMALS , but no reactors , neither allowing use of Russian ones , from where do we power those EMALS?
> 
> Similarly they are offering us JV of next generation JAVELINS , but not allowing us access to its Algorithms. What advantage do we get then ?
> 
> Similarly Mini Drones and Local Assembly , but not allowing use of Indian Raw Materials. How do we bring down their unit cost then ?
> 
> They have also stopped Israel from selling us Arrow , David's Sling and Iron Dome systems and asking us to buy a more costly and less effective PAC3.
> 
> India will continue to buy P8 , Helicopters and Transport Aircrafts , but not anything else. May be a F16 assembly line , but with Trump, that's not happening .



In this world my friend no one give you things and you have to learn by your self

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## Awan68

BHarwana said:


> Ababeel is the first mirv missile, Pakistan has achieved the range before but the re-entry system and MIRV is what was tested here.


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## Devil Soul



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## singlefighter

litman said:


> so how many tanks india was bringing close to border?????



Hahahahahahaha ..great bro you have remind us the joke of the day

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## My-Analogous

Sloth 22 said:


> If what you are saying was true , India would have had been successful with Nirbhay, and would have had a MIRV delivery system by now.



https://in.rbth.com/blogs/2013/12/04/how_indias_cryogenic_programme_was_wrecked_31365

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## Windjammer

SipahSalar said:


> This is a new missile, please show me where was this missile tested before?



Please read the press release, also watch the missile attitude in the video.


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## SipahSalar

BHarwana said:


> Look closely at the image of the rocket and you will know which system was it and where was it tested


The evidence of proof is on you bro.


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## Burhan Wani

Windjammer said:


> Please read the press release, also watch the missile attitude in the video.


Congratulation sir.

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## Sloth 22

My-Analogous said:


> https://in.rbth.com/blogs/2013/12/04/how_indias_cryogenic_programme_was_wrecked_31365



So why are we still dependent upon French for heavy weight launches ? 

They only sold us few Engines , didn't provide the ToT.

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## Falcon26

Windjammer said:


> Please read the press release, also watch the missile attitude in the video.



Arabian Sea 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823584302130728960

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## maximuswarrior

thesolar65 said:


> China is giving everything away to Pakistan to corner India. It is Chinese whoever says what does not matter.



LOL Burn you fvck. We are going to feast all day long and you are going to burn like a rat that you are.

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## YeBeWarned

Ob boy, when i woke up and read in slide it says Pakistan tests a missile name Abbabeel , i thought i would be some Air to Air Missile , but dang when i read the description  MIRV really  than i burst in to Laugh thinking about our neighbors , than i remember how much Indians jump over S-400 which they don't even have yet before they even get it we make it pretty much irrelevant in Indo-Pak war scenario's 

@The Deterrent you hinted in babur 3 thread, something big is coming ... even bigger than the " Winter " of Game of thrones  for our Indian brothers ..

@Khafee where are you brother ?? 

Congratulations to Pakistan and all my fellow Countrymen, all the Scientist and men behind this project deserve the Salute and Applause

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## Sloth 22

My-Analogous said:


> In this world my frdifferent ne give you things and you have to learn by your self



Not exactly. Things can be acquired from different ways. But that's a different topic. 

I was just explaining to that person that the so called DTTI and LEMOA he's talking about is nothing till now.


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## Michael Corleone

Ajaxpaul said:


> Actually india has a no first use policy.


what about you guys?

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## The Eagle

Falcon26 said:


> I think people need to research what MIRV technology is. The interceptor can only contain one missile while the incoming MIRV contains multiple warheads. Besides, decoys will be used so the interceptor simply can't know what warhead to go for. This is totally a massive game changer. To date no country has demonstrated an ability to take out MIRV technology, if I am not mistaken.
> 
> I hope people aren't making knee-jerk reactions instead of well calculated and rational statements.



Well, this system is already countered through analysis that will be countered during the first stage of launch so one thinks, what to do under such no-fly/missile zone. Like we wouldn't consider the counter measure and will come with counter-counter measure.

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## My-Analogous

Sloth 22 said:


> Not exactly. Things can be acquired from* different ways*. But that's a different topic.
> 
> I was just explaining to that person that the so called DTTI and LEMOA he's talking about is nothing till now.



Deal with it and that is the truth of your missile program

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## YeBeWarned

Bhaiyon brace yourself for " *Pak ki ek aur Na-Pak abbabeel Sajish* "

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## Ajaxpaul

Mohammed Khaled said:


> what about you guys?



What about us ?


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## My-Analogous

Mohammed Khaled said:


> what about you guys?



We didn't create it till now

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## Hassan Guy

One more time Pakistan levels the nuclear strategic playing field (again) for a fraction of the cost.


How much did India spend on trying to buy air defence systems to intercept Pakistani missiles from 2004?


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## Bhupendra Singh_Cyan

There is no need to drag India in every thread guys.

Anyways congratulations

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## :::warrior:::

Congratulations Pakistan 
Proud that we have this Tech now

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## Ajaxpaul

Hassan Guy said:


> One more time Pakistan levels the nuclear strategic playing field (again) for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> 
> How much did India spend on trying to buy air defence systems to intercept Pakistani missiles from 2004?



Does pakistan plan on intercepting indian nukes ?

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## thepakistani

Alhamdolilah

1. solid fuel then
2. three stage, long range then
3. cruise babur 1
4. *Neutron bomb* war headed nasar missile --- *death of cold doctrine.*
5. third generation smaller high tech plutonium war head
6. hydrogen bomb
7. smarter shaheen 1a and 3 with very small re entry vehicle with trajectories to redirect
8. babur 2
9. completion of *nuclear triad* babur 3 from submarine.
10. MIRV technology---S400 ABM sys. costing billions $ to india --_*DEAD (can not counter shaheen 1a shaheen 3 and now Ababeel)

Shukar ul Alhamdollilah*_

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## Tipu7

@Windjammer @The Eagle @HRK @The Deterrent 

Thoughts?

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## :::warrior:::

Each


Bhupendra Singh_Cyan said:


> There is no need to drag India in every thread guys.
> 
> Anyways congratulations


Each And every weapon of Pakistan is meant for india 
And no one is dragging India here

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## Hassan Guy

Ajaxpaul said:


> Does pakistan plan on intercepting indian nukes ?


One thing is for sure

we aren't wasting billions on buying obsolete air defence systems.

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## The SC

Congratulation to Pakistan 4on another landmark achievement..

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## Fenrir

Falcon26 said:


> I think people need to research what MIRV technology is. The interceptor can only contain one missile while the incoming MIRV contains multiple warheads. Besides, decoys will be used so the interceptor simply can't know what warhead to go for. This is totally a massive game changer. To date no country has demonstrated an ability to take out MIRV technology, if I am not mistaken.



There are MIRV-killer warheads too, Falcon. Like the American Multi-Object Kill Vehicle, designed to fit an SM-3 interceptor. This is an older version. The new version is still classified:










Penetration aids like kilometer long chaff spools, decoy or dummy warheads, Mylar balloons, radar jammers... they're all tried and test methods and they work, but they aren't fool proof and advanced interceptors have the means to discriminate between live warheads and dummies via various metrics such as heat, weight or filling.

That said, most interceptors designed to knock out MIRV missiles try to do so before separation, to make an interception and total destruction of the missile easier and more complete. GBI tries to do this at ranges upwards of 3000km and beyond, long before the MIRV separates from its bus.





MIRVs and MaRVs, as found on the retired Pershing II:





Complicate the process, but don't make the missile infallible either. There are countermeasures and tactics available to a nation to defeat MIRVs.

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## Sully3

2 things ababeel 1 has done:

1) it makes Indias s-400 purchase from russia absolutely pointless now and a very expensive mistake
2) this is the cold war doctrine killer. this end all talk of the cold start 

another L for Modi

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## maximuswarrior

Just bloody huge achievement. I cannot contain my happiness at the moment! The enemies are silent.

LOL at Obama's sanctions. Coward. We are going to stare you right in the eye. Do something about it if you can...

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## Ajaxpaul

Hassan Guy said:


> One thing is for sure
> 
> we aren't wasting billions on buying obsolete air defence systems.



Another thing which is sure is that pakistan cannot intercept anything as of now.


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## Sloth 22

My-Analogous said:


> Deal with it and that is the truth of your missile papeing



That is true , but not for our missile program. Had there been anything Like That , we would have been aping you with 100% results.


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## Burhan Wani

Sully3 said:


> 2 things ababeel 1 has done:
> 
> 1) it makes Indias s-400 purchase from russia absolutely pointless now and a very expensive mistake
> 2) this is the cold war doctrine killer. this end all talk of the cold start
> 
> another L for Modi


Lolz. You nailed it bro.

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## maximuswarrior

Ajaxpaul said:


> Another thing which is sure is that pakistan cannot intercept anything as of now.



That is right. You be on the defensive. We want to see you plead. Go on, convince us...


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## Ajaxpaul

maximuswarrior said:


> That is right. You be on the defensive. We want to see you plead. Go on, convince us...



Hahaha...not going to happen. Dream on !!


----------



## P4K1ST4N



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## mfhtoor

Redai tar86 said:


> This is amazing, super capability! I don't get whats the difference between this new missile and the Shaheen 3..
> Shaheen is a longer range from what i remember, so whats the point in going back to a shorter range?
> This is very interesting, and we are very Proud!!


Well buddy a single missile hitting multiple targets or hitting a target with multiple warheads so what you gotta say now


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## war&peace

Congratulations to Pakistan especially to our scientists. It is because of their untiring efforts, sacrifices and skills that we have achieved such a success...An excellent timing by Pakistan, on India's republic day thus flushing all their haughty bravado into the toilet. And sending a clear message that we are committed to our defence and your ABM is a futile crap now...whether you keep wasting money on it or spend something on the poor dalits and untouchables, is your call. 

So guys this is first of our MIRVs and be ready to see some longer ranges



Zarvan said:


> Good Job but which Missile is this or have they changed name of the Missile ?


Ababeel and I think it will be a different series ..not Hatf

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## maximuswarrior

Ajaxpaul said:


> Hahaha...not going to happen. Dream on !!



You already did. LMAO

Go on. Say that it is fake... LOL


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## Falcon26

Fenrir said:


> There are MIRV-killer warheads too, Falcon. Like the American Multi-Object Kill Vehicle, designed to fit an SM-3 interceptor. This is an older version. The new version is still classified:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penetration aids like kilometer long chaff spools, decoy or dummy warheads, Mylar balloons, radar jammers... they're all tried and test methods and they work, but they aren't fool proof and advanced intercepts have the means to discriminate between live warheads and dummies via various metrics such as heat, weight or filling.
> 
> That said, most interceptors designed to knock out MIRV missiles try to do so before separation, to make an interception and total destruction of the missile easier and more complete. GBI tries to do this at ranges upwards of 3000km and beyond.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MIRVs and MaRVs, as found on the retired Pershing II:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Complicate the process, but don't make the missile infallible either. There are countermeasures and tactics available to a nation to defeat MIRVs.



Thanks for the detailed post. With the cancellation of the multi-object kill vehicle, it's safe to say there's no technology that can take out MIRV?


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## Windjammer

Tipu7 said:


> @Windjammer @The Eagle @HRK @The Deterrent
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 371476



From it's exhaust trail, you can judge that it's one of the most powerful missile tested by Pakistan, both to carry the load and take it out of the earths stratosphere.

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## Ajaxpaul

Ajaxpaul said:


> Hahaha...not going to happen. Dream on !!



Nothing to convince you guys but tell me is there anything to counter indian nukes ?


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## YeBeWarned

Ajaxpaul said:


> Another thing which is sure is that pakistan cannot intercept anything as of now.



Who told you that ? So far Pakistan has 3 HQ-16 Batteries and 5 more are on order , rumors suggest that we are operating HQ-9 as well ,and after the recent turn of event I will take any Rumor Pakistan has more seriously, few months back no one expected a SLCM and no in their wildest dreams expected MIRV's that soon.... along with FM-90 , SPADA .. If i am not wrong Hq-16 and Hq-9 can intercept CM and BM's too ..
@Beast @Chinese-Dragon @The Deterrent ?

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## maximuswarrior

Starlord said:


> Who told you that ? So far Pakistan has 3 HQ-16 Batteries and 5 more are on order , rumors suggest that we are operating HQ-9 as well , along with FM-90 , SPADA .. If i am not wrong Hq-16 and Hq-9 can intercept CM and BM's too ..
> @Beast @Chinese-Dragon @The Deterrent ?



LOL Exactly.

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## Fenrir

Falcon26 said:


> With the cancellation of the multi-object kill vehicle, it's safe to say there's no technology that can take out MIRV?



The projects ongoing actually:

http://www.space.com/34878-military-missile-us-countermeasures-space-weapons.html

The old version, depicted in the first photo I posted, was cancelled. A newer, smaller, more capable variant is in the offing - designed to fit smaller missiles like SM-3. Just don't expect any details to emerge anytime soon.

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## BetterPakistan

Kaliyai ko neend nhi ayegie aaj raat.

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## cocomo

Mashallah! May God protect Pakistan from the idolaters. Very apt name.

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## faithfulguy

Congrats. Ignored the doubter with questions about the authenticity of this missile or test just because Pakistan didn't brag about this missile months or years before hand.

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## hunter_hunted

Ajaxpaul said:


> Nothing to convince you guys but tell me is there anything to counter indian nukes ?



Did you replied to yourself ???


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## BetterPakistan

Ajaxpaul said:


> Nothing to convince you guys but tell me is there anything to counter indian nukes ?



Are you sure they will not fail before hitting enemy targets?


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## BHarwana

SipahSalar said:


> The evidence of proof is on you bro.


Okay wait bro, I will give you evidence but I thought you were smart.


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## Windjammer

**************************************** 7m7 minutes ago
#ABABEEL missile is capable of delivering multiple nuclear warheads due to multiple independent Re-entry vehicle (MIRV) technology

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## iLION12345_1

Now India will bring another "expert" and prove once and for all how the lying Pakistanis make their missiles.

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## Riz

Now whats the difficulty in sending own satellites to orbit (SLV)? Anyways great achievement of our scientists and engineers

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## Ajaxpaul

Starlord said:


> Who told you that ? So far Pakistan has 3 HQ-16 Batteries and 5 more are on order , rumors suggest that we are operating HQ-9 as well ,and after the recent turn of event I will take any Rumor Pakistan has more seriously, few months back no one expected a SLCM and no in their wildest dreams expected MIRV's that soon.... along with FM-90 , SPADA .. If i am not wrong Hq-16 and Hq-9 can intercept CM and BM's too ..
> @Beast @Chinese-Dragon @The Deterrent ?






BetterPakistan said:


> Are you sure they will not fail before hitting enemy targets?



For pakistan we make sure 2 or 3 times !!


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## maximuswarrior

iLION12345_1 said:


> Now India will bring another "expert" and prove once and for all how the lying Pakistanis make their missiles.



They are already doing it. Google it. LMAO


----------



## Skywalker

Ab Tera Kia hoga kaalia

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## Sloth 22

Starlord said:


> Who told you that ? So far Pakistan has 3 HQ-16 Batteries and 5 more are on order , rumors suggest that we are operating HQ-9 as well ,and after the recent turn of event I will take any Rumor Pakistan has more seriously, few months back no one expected a SLCM and no in their wildest dreams expected MIRV's that soon.... along with FM-90 , SPADA .. If i am not wrong Hq-16 and Hq-9 can intercept CM and BM's too ..
> @Beast @Chinese-Dragon @The Deterrent ?



HQ 16 ==> BUK , It is meant to counter Aircrafts , Helicopters, UAVs. It can't counter Cruise Missiles or Ballistic Missiles. 

HQ9 ==> Its S300 PMU version , which in turn is dedicated for Anti Aircraft Duties, the Anti Ballistic Missile Variant is HQ10 or S300 VM/VM1/VM2 . And that too can only work against upto older MRBMs. Or more effectively against SRBMS, that too if a very good surveillance system exists. 

FM90 and SPADA too are Anti Aircraft Systems and cannot do much / or more appropriately can do nothing against ballistic missiles.

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## Hassan Guy

Shaheen + Ababeel gives a very effective WMD deterrent
Nasr + Babur gives a very effective TNW deterrent

Pakistan is a powerful country.

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## Skyliner

Banniyas would be exploring google like crazy nerd, which chinese missile Ababeel resembles the most. And by claiming that banniya ke rooh ko sakoon ajae ga

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## Zarvan

I posted this news on Indian Forum and I am enjoying our neighbors reactions there. It's just lovely

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## maximuswarrior

Windjammer said:


> **************************************** 7m7 minutes ago
> #ABABEEL missile is capable of delivering multiple nuclear warheads due to multiple independent Re-entry vehicle (MIRV) technology



Now watch how Western analysts get a twist in their knickers about this test.

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## Mitro

Now Pakistan needs anti ship ballistic missile so 56" die in shame .

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## ghazi52

Great. Keep going...............for safe Pakistan.

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## Mrc

Zarvan said:


> I posted this news on Indian Forum and I am enjoying our neighbors reactions there. It's just lovely




Ha ha... baaz aa... aj mat chair..

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## iLION12345_1

maximuswarrior said:


> They are already doing it. Google it. LMAO


Did , Indians have already uploaded very very convincing videos with some of the greatest experts telling us how the launch was faked,I'm pretty convinced, these guys were better then that last "expert"

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## Burhan Wani

Zarvan said:


> I posted this news on Indian Forum and I am enjoying our neighbors reactions there. It's just lovely


Share us.

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## Tipu7

Fenrir said:


> There are MIRV-killer warheads too, Falcon. Like the American Multi-Object Kill Vehicle, designed to fit an SM-3 interceptor. This is an older version. The new version is still classified:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penetration aids like kilometer long chaff spools, decoy or dummy warheads, Mylar balloons, radar jammers... they're all tried and test methods and they work, but they aren't fool proof and advanced interceptors have the means to discriminate between live warheads and dummies via various metrics such as heat, weight or filling.
> 
> That said, most interceptors designed to knock out MIRV missiles try to do so before separation, to make an interception and total destruction of the missile easier and more complete. GBI tries to do this at ranges upwards of 3000km and beyond, long before the MIRV is detached from its host missile:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MIRVs and MaRVs, as found on the retired Pershing II:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Complicate the process, but don't make the missile infallible either. There are countermeasures and tactics available to a nation to defeat MIRVs.



It will be a very complicated process which theoretically be able to intercept ICBM which travel long way to reach the target giving you crucial time for undergoing its counter procedure.
However in Indo Pak scenario, where both nations are at stone throw distance apart, its nearly impossible to intercept a ''non MIRV'' missile in most cases. Forget intercepting MIRV + MARV capable Missile system.

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## maximuswarrior

Tipu7 said:


> It will be a very complicated process which theoretically be able to intercept ICBM which travel long way to reach the target giving you crucial time for undergoing its counter procedure.
> However in Indo Pak scenario, where both nations are at stone throw distance apart, its nearly impossible to intercept a ''non MIRV'' missile in most cases. Forget intercepting MIRV + MARV capable Missile system.



Let's not even get into the cost of this thing. It is like a goalkeeper trying to save a ping pong from entering the goal and even worse. Intercepting a single MIRV is virtually impossible. Let alone multiple.


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## YeBeWarned

Ajaxpaul said:


> Pls... some one just said S400 is crap. As a pakistani i expect you to believe your comrade.



Are you even reading your own Posts ? I mentioned in my first post in this thread , Indian S-400 become PRETTY MUCH IRRELEVANT , because of MIRV technology which India Does not Posses, for our Hq-16 and Hq-9's it wont be that hard to intercept your missiles , Anti BM systems are never 100% full proof, we don't expect our SAM's to intercept your BM's with 100% accuracy and rate and neither you can claim , but you have to swallow that Hard pill that now Pakistan has acquired a Technology which makes Indian Interception of missiles very hard .. you are not US and i hope you know that,

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## :::warrior:::

Each


Bhupendra Singh_Cyan said:


> There is no need to drag India in every thread guys.
> 
> Anyways congratulations


Each And every weapon of Pakistan is meant for india
And no one is dragging India here


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## BetterPakistan

Ajaxpaul said:


> For pakistan we make sure 2 or 3 times !!



No, you make sure 2-3 times because missile fails to reach its target. Not only target, missile blows itself in air 
Expected only from you.

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## Syed1.

A lot of wet lungis across the border at the moment


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## BHarwana

SipahSalar said:


> The evidence of proof is on you bro.



Here look at the launchers.

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## countryman

Ajaxpaul said:


> Does pakistan plan on intercepting indian nukes ?



Hmm, intercepting re-entry vehicle on its way back? Dude you're talking about about intercepting something moving down at about 25-40 mach speed (depends on height and ejection speed from point where it was deployed)? Even USA don't have such a thing!! Ballistic missiles can only be intercepted on its way up using cruise missile if they in close vicinity to launch location. Deployment of warhead with precision, increased devastation (MIRV to carry multiple warheads), and second strike are important factors to create deterrence and deterrence is only known best defense so far against nuclear threats.

Though, once Pakistan have credible deterrence, I think it will be reasonable to spend some money on autonomous anti-missile defense system - currently we don't have any autonomous system, but we still can intercept missiles to some extent to some extent using manual computer aided calculations and interception in the same scenarios where autonomous system will work.

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## YeBeWarned

Sloth 22 said:


> HQ 16 ==> BUK , It is meant to counter Aircrafts , Helicopters, UAVs. It can't counter Cruise Missiles or Ballistic Missiles.



yes it can ..
http://www.military-today.com/missiles/hq16.htm
it can intercept CM ..

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## Windjammer

maximuswarrior said:


> Now watch how Western analysts get a twist in their knickers about this test.



Let them burn in their own fires, while others make a song and dance even if they put a bolt on nut, Pakistan goes about quietly on it's business and out of blue, and punches the air out of them.

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## maximuswarrior

countryman said:


> Hmm, intercepting re-entry vehicle on its way back? Dude you're talking about about intercepting something moving down at about 25-40 mach speed (depends on height and ejection speed from point where it was deployed)? Even USA don't have such a thing!! Ballistic missiles can only be intercepted on its way up using cruise missile if they in close vicinity to launch location. Deployment of warhead with precision, increased devastation (MIRV to carry multiple warheads), and second strike are important factors to create deterrence and deterrence is only known best defense so far against nuclear threats.
> 
> Though, once Pakistan have credible deterrence, I think it will be reasonable to spend some money on autonomous anti-missile defense system - currently we don't have any autonomous system, but we still can intercept missiles to some extent to some extent using manual computer aided calculations and interception in the same scenarios where autonomous system will work.



Indians and their friends will now present all kinds of alien and outer space theories to convince everyone how this test is meaningless, fake and even impossible. LMAO The whole freakin' world knows that a MIRV is the ultimate capability in the missile domain.

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## Ajaxpaul

Starlord said:


> Are you even reading your own Posts ? I mentioned in my first post in this thread , Indian S-400 become PRETTY MUCH IRRELEVANT , because of MIRV technology which India Does not Posses, for our Hq-16 and Hq-9's it wont be that hard to intercept your missiles , Anti BM systems are never 100% full proof, we don't expect our SAM's to intercept your BM's with 100% accuracy and rate and neither you can claim , but you have to swallow that Hard pill that now Pakistan has acquired a Technology which makes Indian Interception of missiles very hard .. you are not US and i hope you know that,




Oh now it's not that hard ehh ? Dude we have china to worry about...what does pakistan have that china does not ?


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## IceCold

The Deterrent said:


> The limit set by Shaheen-III will hold.



Why just why? Don't we have threats beyond India as well considering not very long ago we were threatened to be bombed back to stone age. This surely should count for something?

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## ghauri05

Starlord said:


> Bhaiyon brace yourself for " *Pak ki ek aur Na-Pak abbabeel Sajish* "


kabooter, kutte r camel k baaad ab ABABEEL....bechare bhartio ko animal kingdom pe pabandi lga deni chahye

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## Zarvan

Jonah Arthur said:


> Share us.


https://www.facebook.com/zbinsajid

Visit this link and you would see first post which is the link to Indian Defence forum I can't share the link here because it won't work due to restrictions placed by forum

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## maximuswarrior

Ajaxpaul said:


> Oh now it's not that hard ehh ? Dude we have china to worry about...what does pakistan have that china does not ?



LOL China is way beyond you. Don't worry about them. Instead, worry about the poverty in your country.

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## YeBeWarned

Czar786 said:


> Now Pakistan needs anti ship ballistic missile so 56" die in shame .



we don't want him to Die, we want him to rule India for another 4 years

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## Zarvan

IceCold said:


> Why just why? Don't we have threats beyond India as well considering not very long ago we were threatened to be bombed back to stone age. This surely should count for something?


Don't worry How much members here say we won't cross SHAHEEN III limit Pakistan will go for ICBM

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## S A L M A N.

Any idea about its launch site?
I'm asking because I saw the missile's initial stage of flight from my college in Karachi. The missile seemed to have been launched from a north-westerly direction.
Either way, it's a great achievement.
Pakistan's strategic organizations are on a roll!


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## The Eagle

Tipu7 said:


> @Windjammer @The Eagle @HRK @The Deterrent
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 371476



As deterrent already described as well, the more the payload, the more power needed hence not very long range but enough.

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## Muhammad Omar

Anxiously waiting for Indian Comments and GOOGLE MAP Experts to reject the claim about MIRV


But But Video is animated 
But But You got these from China
But but It's a Fake test
But but no warnings were issued 
But but we are Butt hurt 
But but Pakistan painted it white 
but but no warheads can be seen 

LIARS Pakistani's

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## Blue Marlin



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## Ajaxpaul

countryman said:


> Hmm, intercepting re-entry vehicle on its way back? Dude you're talking about about intercepting something moving down at about 25-40 mach speed (depends on height and ejection speed from point where it was deployed)? Even USA don't have such a thing!! Ballistic missiles can only be intercepted on its way up using cruise missile if they in close vicinity to launch location. Deployment of warhead with precision, increased devastation (MIRV to carry multiple warheads), and second strike are important factors to create deterrence and deterrence is only known best defense so far against nuclear threats.
> 
> Though, once Pakistan have credible deterrence, I think it will be reasonable to spend some money on autonomous anti-missile defense system - currently we don't have any autonomous system, but we still can intercept missiles to some extent to some extent using manual computer aided calculations and interception in the same scenarios where autonomous system will work.


There is the reply to a pKistani who said india wasted billions in BMD. 

Hope you understood the importance of BMD. Which is why I asked if there is a plan adopted by pak.

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## Salza

No Indian media site reporting the test as of now. Probably they are in a state of shock and waiting for any joker to brand it as a fake test

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## Burhan Wani

Zarvan said:


> https://www.facebook.com/zbinsajid
> 
> Visit this link and you would see first post which is the link to Indian Defence forum I can't share the link here because it won't work due to restrictions placed by forum


Checked, liked and commented on your FB post.

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## amir waqas

What is MIRV???


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

Congratulation to my Pakistani friends. But Literal meaning of Ababeel is a bird or flocks of birds I thing and of course 'Fil' meaning elephant. Please correct me if I am wrong. Congratulation once again to the team of scientists for a great achievement. 

Regards,
Jailer

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## Talwar e Pakistan

wait for some 'Indian expert' (who in reality works in call support) to declare this is fake because the 'camera is wobbly'.

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## django

The missile is based on Shaheen III but has an enlarged cone section to accommodate multiple independent reentry vehicles (MIRV). This is meant to reduce the likelihood of interception by an anti-ballistic missile system.


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## Ajaxpaul

maximuswarrior said:


> LOL China is way beyond you. Don't worry about them. Instead, worry about the poverty in your country.



Is this the poverty measuring thread you created ? I can understand, india is looking at the main adversary, not some irritants !!

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## YeBeWarned

Ajaxpaul said:


> Oh now it's not that hard ehh ? Dude we have china to worry about...what does pakistan have that china does not ?



Forget about China, your entire Country is obsessed with Pakistan , Dont believe me look at your own media , govt reactions on any Test Pakistan has conducted

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## Burhan Wani

@Zarvan

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## RangeMaster

Congratulations Pakistan Army....
Babur and then Ababeel.We are working pretty fast.Things once we have discussed on this forum are becoming reality now.Now waiting for ICBM.
Proud to be a Pakistani..


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## Tipu7

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> View attachment 371483


Funny past is that, no extra stage is added.
Level of Butt hurt is compromising their brain activity ............... 
Isn't that Moron member of PDF too?

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## Riz

Salman Zahidi said:


> No Indian media site reporting the test as of now. Probably they are in state of shock and waiting for any joker to brand it as a fake test


They will be pissing in pants, we vanished there false ego in to gutter.. we cant stop them crying because there are many big items we r going to reveal in mear future

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## Burhan Wani

@Zarvan

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## YeBeWarned

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> View attachment 371483



Same reactions as if some one rub all kind of Mirchi against someone's Arse hole ahahahahahahahhaah

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## Hassan Guy

ICBM's and SLBM's on the way next.

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> Funny past is that, no extra stage is added.
> Level of Butt hurt is compromising their brain activity ...............
> Isn't that Moron member of PDF too?


Most of them are here members also


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## Burhan Wani

Tipu7 said:


> Funny past is that, no extra stage is added.
> Level of Butt hurt is compromising their brain activity ...............
> Isn't that Moron member of PDF too?


May be. Idon't know. The entire thread on Indian defence forum is not less than a comic.

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## Ajaxpaul

Starlord said:


> Forget about China, your entire Country is obsessed with Pakistan , Dont believe me look at your own media , govt reactions on any Test Pakistan has conducted



Both countries are obsessed with each other.
Well, you can deny of course like all other pakistanis here.


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## Mrc

Zarvan said:


> Most of them are here members also



But their true colours can be seen on that forum... here they just give us advice on cpec

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## Hassan Guy

Zarvan said:


> Most of them are here members also


Obviously no one goes on that shitty forum.

There are more Indians here.


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## Mrc

It would be interesting to see indian navy comment.... they did not see the last test ... slcm babur...

May be they did not see this one either

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## BHarwana

Well the country that will benefit most from this launch is Russia. INDIA will have to pay at least 15 Billion dollars to buy more S400 and the probability of successful interception will still remain 18%.
Bravo Pakistan has just Placed India in a budget deficit. ABABEEL is an economy ripper not just a missile.

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## YeBeWarned

Ajaxpaul said:


> Both countries are obsessed with each other.
> Well, you can deny of course like all other pakistanis here.



Show me one Report done by Pakistani media like your media make ? the way your entire nation react on Babur 3 , its just hilarious , Pakistani's are not obsessed with India , no one in Pakistan comes into Power by cursing India .. but in in India Modi was elected because of his Anti-Pakistan rants..

No more off Topic Posts

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## Mrc

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan @Starlord @Tipu7
> 
> This is epic.
> View attachment 371485




Extremely offensive and discriminatoty comment... that guy can go to jail for writing that in west

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## The Eagle

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan @Starlord @Tipu7
> 
> This is epic.
> View attachment 371485



Tells the quality of interaction and discussion that people stoop to such level and start calling others with etc names. Zarvan never hide his picture on twitter even but pity on such people going to attack personally. I am sure, none of them would ever dare to share their own pic at all. 

However, I would suggest that not to share their posts here for the quality of thread alone.

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## Hassan Guy

@Zarvan

What a savage, posting this stuff on the Indian defence forums

You are sticking it where it hurts most for those gandu's, they can't stand this kind of stuff.

BONDS ARE ON FIRE

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## YeBeWarned

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan @Starlord @Tipu7
> 
> This is epic.
> View attachment 371485



What you expect from those low Life scums ? i don't agree with Zarvan most of the time but they are going personal on his appearance .. Disgusting and Chote log


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## The SC

MIRV warheads

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## HttpError

I read all 25 pages while eating my snickers and having a good laugh.

Pakistan Zindabad

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## RangeMaster

New year came with new achievements.
First Babur SLCM and now Ababeel SSM.2017 is rocking guys.And it is just the 1st month.Hoping for the best.....

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## Cyberian

jaydee said:


> Does anybody know how many MIRV's are in this new missile?
> @SUPARCO



Missile name is a clue.

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## Burhan Wani

The Eagle said:


> Tells the quality of interaction and discussion that people stoop to such level and start calling others with etc names. Zarvan never hide his picture on twitter even but pity on such people going to attack personally. I am sure, none of them would ever dare to share their own pic at all.
> 
> However, I would suggest that not to share their posts here for the quality of thread alone.


Roger sir.
I was also hesitated first to share this post but actually i want to show you guys a level of temperature across border.

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## Tipu7

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan @Starlord @Tipu7
> 
> This is epic.
> View attachment 371485


The anxiety of this nation is worth enjoying.
After every such Test comes two cheers for Pakistanis

1 : Missile Test
2 : Watching Indian @$$ burning

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## Burhan Wani

Starlord said:


> What you expect from those low Life scums ? i don't agree with Zarvan most of the time but they are going personal on his appearance .. Disgusting and Chote log


Exactly.
Bro two nation theory.

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## Riz

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan
> 
> View attachment 371484


 Zarvan yaar tum keun ungi gand jala aty ho har dosry din bari khabar lay k...lol karyakaram kar dia tum na to unka bhai hahahaa


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## Burhan Wani

Tipu7 said:


> The anxiety of this nation is worth enjoying.
> After every such Test comes two cheers for Pakistanis
> 
> 1 : Missile Test
> 2 : Watching Indian @$$ burning


Yes.
It is just like buy one get one free.

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## Michael Corleone

My-Analogous said:


> We didn't create it till now


lmao XD

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## YeBeWarned

Tipu7 said:


> The anxiety of this nation is worth enjoying.
> After every such Test comes two cheers for Pakistanis
> 
> 1 : Missile Test
> 2 : Watching Indian @$$ burning



one arse-hole on IDF is posting that as now Pakistan has MIRV , so Indian should buy more S-400 and Brahmos , his plans are epic when he wants to Intercept a BM with a CM

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## maximuswarrior

Blue Marlin said:


>



LOL That's right. We'll make sure that this retired guest compliments out achievements.

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## Burhan Wani

SUPARCO said:


> Missile name is a clue.



Three I guess?


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## maximuswarrior

Starlord said:


> one arse-hole on IDF is posting that as now Pakistan has MIRV , so Indian should buy more S-400 and Brahmos , his plans are epic when he wants to Intercept a BM with a CM



LMAO LMAO These Indians are clueless.

On a different note, let's burden their defence expenditure so much that they start buying the arms of the whole world to counter Pakistan. LMAO

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## YeBeWarned

Jonah Arthur said:


> Exactly.
> Bro two nation theory.



Don't mean any Disrespect but Quaid-e-Azam will be Laughing out loud in Heaven right now .. and we are praising him for what he see which we would never have .. may Allah bless the man for eternity

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## HRK

Robinhood Pandey said:


> Nope we dont have MIRV tech as of now . .but this test will push us to pursue it ASAP.
> 
> Congratulations BTW.



A country which can launch Multiple Satellites via Civilian program does not possess MIRV technology is unbelievable, or in other words I should say this capabilty is UNDECLARED for missile program but India has demonstrated this capability & passed the MESSAGE to the global community

http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/pslv-launches-20-satellites-in-single-mission_alele_280616
https://qz.com/790928/isro-pulls-of...-launches-8-satellites-into-different-orbits/

Expect it's declaration & operationalisation with AGNI-VI & eventually with K series as well .....

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## Salza

John Reese said:


> A country which don't have capacity to send satellite with SLV to earth orbit claiming to get MIRV technology
> 
> Pakistan is day by day became proganda driven society



Here comes another butt hurt Indian. I feel sorry for them today. The level of 'butt hurtism' today is at astronomical levels.

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## The Eagle

Jonah Arthur said:


> Roger sir.
> I was also hesitated first to share this post but actually i want to show you guys a level of temperature across border.



No problem Bro, I was actually hinting towards a chance of trolling that brigade may avail here to divert the topic that has nothing to add to the subject at all.

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## maximuswarrior

amir waqas said:


> What is MIRV???



All you need to know that it is the worst nightmare of India. You can also call it WNoI.



Ajaxpaul said:


> Is this the poverty measuring thread you created ? I can understand, india is looking at the main adversary, not some irritants !!



LOL That's right. You be in the defensive mode.


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## Ajaxpaul

HRK said:


> A country which can launch Multiple Satellites via Civilian program does not possess MIRV technology is unbelievable, or in other words I should say this capabilty is UNDECLARED for missile program but India has demonstrated this capability & passed the MESSAGE to the global community
> 
> http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/pslv-launches-20-satellites-in-single-mission_alele_280616
> https://qz.com/790928/isro-pulls-of...-launches-8-satellites-into-different-orbits/
> 
> Expect it's declaration & operationalisation with AGNI-VI & eventually with K series as well .....



It's better we don't declare. What is going to change ?


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## Burhan Wani

Starlord said:


> Don't mean any Disrespect but Quaid-e-Azam will be Laughing out loud in Heaven right now .. and we are praising him for what he see which we would never have .. may Allah bless the man for eternity


Ever heard about Martial and non martial theory of British for subcontinent.

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## tarrar

Congratulation to whole of nation. 

Ababeel is having a interesting design, wow.

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## Ultimate Weapon

Congratulations Pakistan

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## John Reese

Salman Zahidi said:


> Here comes another butt hurt Indian. I feel sorry for them today. The level of 'butt hurtism' today is at astronomical levels.


If facts and technical valid arguments are means butthurt to pakistani s then it my pleasure 

We often en feels it when some one shows list of Pakistan Research papers & patents filing to them

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## Burhan Wani

The Eagle said:


> No problem Bro, I was actually hinting towards a chance of trolling that brigade may avail here to divert the topic that has nothing to add to the subject at all.


I can understand it brother. There should be some prize for our brother zarvan who crossed enemy lines and did some surgical strike today.
@Zarvan My LeT operative.

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## Stealth



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## simplestguy

Malik Shani said:


> Only the United States, United Kingdom, Russia, France,and China are known to currently possess MIRV missiles (Wikipedia). Alhamdolilah we have achieved another milestone. What about India, do they have any MIRV capable missile?


India's Agni V and Agni VI have MIRV capabilities.


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## YeBeWarned

Jonah Arthur said:


> Ever heard about Martial and non martial theory of British for subcontinent.



No brother , i did not have heard of it, maybe i did read it in past but its not clicking in my mind right now,,.


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## Burhan Wani

Starlord said:


> No brother , i did not have heard of it, maybe i did read it in past but its not clicking in my mind right now,,.


Ok. You can get this information on wikipedia. What was your feeling when you heard this news?


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## The Eagle

HRK said:


> A country which can launch Multiple Satellites via Civilian program does not possess MIRV technology is unbelievable, or in other words I should say this capabilty is UNDECLARED for missile program but India has demonstrated this capability & passed the MESSAGE to the global community
> 
> http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/pslv-launches-20-satellites-in-single-mission_alele_280616
> https://qz.com/790928/isro-pulls-of...-launches-8-satellites-into-different-orbits/
> 
> Expect it's declaration & operationalisation with AGNI-VI & eventually with K series as well .....



They already had it though, Agni-VI is panned from sub (if I am not wrong).


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## SMC

The timing of these two tests (Babur 3 and Ababeel) seems very interesting. 2 new missiles with features that Pakistan didn't have before in 2 weeks. I have a feeling Pakistan got intelligence that bharatis were planning a false flag in bharat as a prelude to war. This and Babur 3 will make the bharatis think many, many times now before going to war now.

Pakistan has probably had both these missiles for a few years but didn't publicize them. Now bharatis have some idea of what Pakistan has.

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## Chauvinist

Side-Winder said:


> The missile is MIRV capable



Several warheads for several targets to Terrorists and their sponsoring states..


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## Burhan Wani

@Moonlight @The Sandman 
Congratulations. 
@DESERT FIGHTER 
@Zibago 
Another great achievement. Friends.

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## YeBeWarned

Jonah Arthur said:


> Ok. You can get this information on wikipedia. What was your feeling when you heard this news?



I woke up late today as i was working on my paper last night, and first i thought its some Air-to-Air missile as recent statement by Sohail Aman about getting state of art stuff for PAF .. but when i see the full news about it been a BM and MIRV capable .. i jumped over my couch and than laugh over thinking the reaction of poor Indians haha

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## -BAJWA-

اک دکھ سجنا دا، دوجا میزالاں تنگ کیتا.

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## Riz

John Reese said:


> A country which don't have capacity to send satellite with SLV to earth orbit claiming to get MIRV technology
> 
> Pakistan is day by day became proganda driven society


Wr tested this missile into Arabian sea, according to agreement we informed Indian govt before Bm test, now if you asshats have some shame ask your navy to inform Indian janta about this test as u guys have the ability to track ujing shittilites and radaaarj? No?

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## Burhan Wani

@The Eagle Bro check this.

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## Skywalker

John Reese said:


> A country which don't have capacity to send satellite with SLV to earth orbit claiming to get MIRV technology
> 
> Pakistan is day by day became proganda driven society


All right folks here comes the first black burning arse aka indiot.

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## Burhan Wani

Starlord said:


> I woke up late today as i was working on my paper last night, and first i thought its some Air-to-Air missile as recent statement by Sohail Aman about getting state of art stuff for PAF .. but when i see the full news about it been a BM and MIRV capable .. i jumped over my couch and than laugh over thinking the reaction of poor Indians haha


Hmm. There will be more surprises this year i guess.

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## Fenrir

HRK said:


> A country which can launch Multiple Satellites via Civilian program does not possess MIRV technology is unbelievable, or in other words I should say this capabilty is UNDECLARED for missile program but India has demonstrated this capability & passed the MESSAGE to the global community



Neat. Means Norway is MIRV-capable too. Look out Denmark, we've come to reclaim Greenland as our own!!!












We're always launching stuff, sometimes stuff carrying more then one stuff. Sometimes lots of stuff at the same time.

The point's valid though. If your rocket can carry and deploy multiple objects like satellites, then with some guidance mods and a different bus, it could deploy multiple warheads too. India has the means, but has yet to demonstrate the validity of its MIRV capabilities.

Other nations like Japan, also a nuclear latent nation capable of hefting unconventional warheads, are faced with the same situation. They have the technical means, but haven't demonstrated a weaponization of their rockets like Epsilon - Epsilon is believed have the capability to be converted into a nuclear strike ballistic missile leaving Japan with a latent second-strike capability:





Japan has demonstrated the means to deploy multiple objects via one rocket.

A number of nations possess the means, but lack the ability to translate these technical theoreticals into practical solutions. Launching and targeting a MIRV is a bit more complicated then deploying satellites.

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## Mrc

Skywalker said:


> All right folks here comes the first black burning arse aka indiot.




More will come soon... they are just in shock


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## YeBeWarned

Jonah Arthur said:


> Hmm. There will be more surprises this year i guess.



Even if we did not , i will still not complain  
man just check out what we achieve SLCM and now MIRV .. we just need to advance this tech , more test to master this tech

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## The Eagle

Jonah Arthur said:


> I can understand it brother. There should be some prize for our brother zarvan who crossed enemy lines and did some surgical strike today.
> @Zarvan My LeT operative.



Both @Zarvan and jawan (video maker) seems to be always on "Fire at will" position. 



Jonah Arthur said:


> @The Eagle Bro check this.

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## SMC

Any "debunking" videos from bharati media yet?


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## Burhan Wani

Starlord said:


> Even if we did not , i will still not complain
> man just check out what we achieve SLCM and now MIRV .. we just need to advance this tech , more test to master this tech


Further improvements and modifications you mean.

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## countryman

Ajaxpaul said:


> Hope you understood the importance of BMD. Which is why I asked if there is a plan adopted by pak.



Yeah, of course, I do; in fact, I'm sure everyone in this forum understands. But, only problem is that it is completely useless once the arrow has been shot from bow. So, like I said before, chance of stopping it, if any, lies only in destroying bow. So, talking about bow, interceptor must destroy it before taking the shot. Numerous factors make even destroying the bow less probable:

Firstly, Farther the launch location, more time your defense system will take to detect it and initiate autonomous defense.
Secondly, Farther the launch location, more time your interceptor will take reach it, and using current technologies defense system will be completely useless if launch is beyond its reasonable reach.
Thirdly and most importantly, your interceptor can be intercepted itself and even probability to of intercepting it is much higher. So, farther the launch location, lower are the chances that your interceptor will reach it before being intercepted itself at first place.

So, I'll say again, even successfully proven technology only works in short ranges. For India it maybe useful for short range missiles and for Pakistan too in same scenario. But, what about medium range ballistic missiles? Both Pakistan and India have Medium range missiles. We can fire it from other end of our country and it can easily avoid the interception threshold; India can do the the same. So, tell me again, how many odd are there for interception?

(My last statement isn't question, please don't answer it, just answer yourself. Anti-missile system is useful only to some extent in case of Ballistic Missile, however, very useful to intercept cruise missile and that should be Pakistan's target in my view)

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## ziaulislam

LOL, this stunned me as well, i had no idea will we will go for a new missle in this environment



Areesh said:


> Its a fake test. Look at the color of the missile. It changes from white to black to violet to indigo to orange.


also there are no multiple war heads coming out of it heads
speed test shows that missile is very slow

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## jaydee

SUPARCO said:


> Missile name is a clue.


Bhai eik Aur hint chahiye. 
Know about Ababeel bird and how Allah protected his house with it. 
is 8 the answer?


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## Riz

We should keep testing long range missiles as bigger as India is testing, if world dpnt uave problems over indias Icbm why should they have to worry about pur tests...im praying for India to test Hydrogen Bomb, Icbm, SLBM etc so that we alao can following them, keep them thinking stop dreaming to match with china but u are nothing infront of Pakistan yet

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## Sloth 22

simplestguy said:


> India's Agni V and Agni VI have MIRV capabilities.



No.


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## Burhan Wani

jaydee said:


> Bhai eik Aur hint chahiye.
> Know about Ababeel bird and how Allah protected his house with it.
> is 8 the answer?


No three because at the time of attack on Makkah by Abrahat, bird Ababeel carried three stones.

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## Mutakalim

Alhamdulillah!!! By the Grace of Allah, we have rendered Billion of Indian Dollars useless.


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## Sloth 22

The Eagle said:


> They already had it though, Agni-VI is panned from sub (if I am not wrong).



No. The targets set for a land based MIRV missile test is ~2020. 

The submarine ballistic missile program did take lessons from Agni program and so will the Agni program now , but both are different .


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## Ajaxpaul

riz1978 said:


> We should keep testing long range missiles as bigger as India is testing, if world dpnt uave problems over indias Icbm why should they have to worry about pur tests...im praying for India to test Hydrogen Bomb, Icbm, SLBM etc so that we alao can following them, keep them thinking *stop dreaming to match with china but u are nothing infront of Pakistan yet*




Yeah Right !!!

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## Mutakalim

Zarvan said:


> Good Job but which Missile is this or have they changed name of the Missile ?


A new weapon system.


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## Burhan Wani

Missile Man said:


> But this man made Ababeel I can take upto 6, I must say what a brilliant name choice, hats off


Yes bro. Carry hidden message.

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## Sloth 22

riz1978 said:


> Wr tested this missile into Arabian sea, according to agreement we informed Indian govt before Bm test, now if you asshats have some shame ask your navy to inform Indian janta about this test as u guys have the ability to track ujing shittilites and radaaarj? No?



The information put up by your side was a warning in that area. 

We do the same every time. There are many aircrafts and vessels going through , there is no way India can test missiles without a warning. India issues proper warnings. Months in advance.


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## NomanAli89

OK missile walo ab jaldi se aik chota sa ICBM bana do phir beshak lambi chutti pe chalay jana .... 

We need to tell Americans that unlike other poor muslim countries this muslim country can bring war at your doorstep (if provoked)

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## DESERT FIGHTER

TooRave said:


> India has MIRV capabilities.India carries dozens satellite to space let's not talk about 5 warheads.
> 
> Bhai you people are doing good but you are very late in the game.Since long India posses MIRV ICBM & also BMDs where you just did a first test with merely 3-4 warheads...Don't be illogical



@Oscar please ban this turd

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## jkroo

Congratulations.

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## jaydee

Jonah Arthur said:


> No three because at the time of attack on Makkah by Abrahat, bird Ababeel carried three stones.


Thanks Akhi.


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## ziaulislam

TooRave said:


> India has MIRV capabilities.India carries dozens satellite to space let's not talk about 5 warheads.
> 
> Bhai you people are doing good but you are very late in the game.Since long India posses MIRV ICBM & also BMDs where you just did a first test with merely 3-4 warheads...Don't be illogical


by the way which agni has MIRV system.


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## Zarvan

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan @Starlord @Tipu7
> 
> This is epic.
> View attachment 371485


@Horus and @Oscar bashed him on twitter massively so he is pissed and now showing anger towards me. I am enjoying every bit of it.


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## SQ8

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @Oscar please ban this turd


Have told you all not to engage these scums & just report their pathetic derailment and pithiful whining

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## HAIDER

Pakistan has successfully conducted first flight test of surface-to-surface nuclear-capable missile ‘Ababeel’, said Pakistan military. The missile is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead up to 2,200 kms, which brings many Indian cities within its striking range. Ababeel is capable of delivering multiple warheads using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology, Army spokesman Major General Asif Ghafoor said in a statement. “The test flight was aimed
at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system,” he said.

MIRV concept

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## Rashid Mahmood

اللہ اکبر​

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## Sugarcane

Mods why you deleted earlier ababeel thread?

@WebMaster

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## Hassan Guy

Ababeel + Shaheen gives effective WMD capability
Babur + Nasr gives effective TNW capability
ICBM + SLBM most probably next
Lord knows the number of Nuclear warheads we have now


Pakistan is a powerful country man.

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## Frankenstein9321

Someone deleted the last thread...
I was just saying we have such great missiles, yet we dont have an air defense shield to counter subsonic and supersonic missiles...Its time to induct these and work on long range air defense mussiles like HQ 9 and S 400 or S 500...

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## Shariq786

Finally i m starting to love it 1st version of ababeel is 2200 km 2nd could be around 3500 and 3rd an icbm yesss 5000+ kms

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## jehangirhaider

Pakistan on Tuesday conducted a successful test flight of the Ababeel surface-to-surface ballistic missile (SSM), the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) said in a statement.

Ababeel has a maximum range of 2,200 kilometres and is capable of delivering multiple warheads using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology, an ISPR press release added.

"The test flight was aimed at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system," it said.

Ababeel is capable of carrying nuclear warheads and has the capability to engage multiple targets with high precision, defeating hostile radars, the ISPR elobrated.

The development of the Ababeel weapon system was aimed at ensuring survivability of Pakistan's ballistic missiles in the growing regional Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) environment," read the press release.

The Ababeel test came on the heels of a successful test of submarine-launched cruise missile Babur-III earlier this month.

"The successful attainment of a second strike capability by Pakistan represents a major scientific milestone; it is manifestation of the strategy of measured response to nuclear strategies and postures being adopted in Pakistan’s neighborhood," the military had said after the Babur-III test.

The missile, launched from an undisclosed location in the Indian Ocean from an underwater, mobile platform, had hit its target with precise accuracy, the Army had said.

Babur-III is a sea-based variant of ground-launched cruise missile Babur-II, which was successfully tested in December last year.


https://www.dawn.com/news/1310452/p...ht-test-of-ababeel-surface-to-surface-missile

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## Burhan Wani

Congratulations.
@Zibago @DESERT FIGHTER @The Sandman @Tipu7 @Moonlight

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## CriticalThought

Looking forward to anti-ballistic missile systems as well.


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## :::warrior:::

Great 
Congratulations 
Now some people are gonna try to prove that video of test is not real 
And it's not mirv capable because it's made in Pakistan

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## Chauvinist

MIRV capable ... 
Several Warheads for several Terrorists and their sponsoring allies..

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## Amavous



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## countryman

Yar, tusi pehlay ai faisla kar lo k thread koun chalaay ga, we'll talk about missile later

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## jehangirhaider

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176

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## Little Falcon

GOOOOOOOOO and blow up their a*s.

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## EAK

Alhamdulilah

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## krash

Allahuakbar! We've been waiting for this for too long. Congratulations to the nation on this phenomenal scientific achievement by our scientists. What a day to wake up to.

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## CHACHA"G"

*What happen to above thread , Y its close????????????????*
@WAJsal , @Khafee , @waz , @Horus , @Emmie , @WebMaster


*Edit: The thread is back.................. Thank u all*

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## GEMINI

Nahin NAhin " its a lie; Pakistan has only used video mixing techniques to show this test, actually there was no test" or maybe " it was a chinese missile" or " pakistan doesnot have the engg. capability to design anything like this"

Samajh tou aap sab gaye hi hon ge.

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## BHarwana

The missile test was a MIRV war head test with multi stage missile system. This means that Pakistan has the ability to launch multiple satellites in the space and also it has perfected the re-entry and guidance of multiple warheads. This is a big achievement and we got a step ahead of many nations in the world. This achievement is bigger than an ICBM. Pakistan just came to the first row of the nations. India was wishing for this technology but Pakistan did it first.

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## GEMINI

Nahin NAhin " its a lie; Pakistan has only used video mixing techniques to show this test, actually there was no test" or maybe " it was a chinese missile" or " pakistan doesnot have the engg. capability to design anything like this"

Samajh tou aap sab gaye hi hon ge.

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## Asfandyar Bhittani

:::warrior::: said:


> Great
> Congratulations
> Now some people are gonna try to prove that video of test is not real
> And it's not mirv capable because it's made in Pakistan



Here you go

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Why the previous thread got deleted? I wanted to read so many replies with so much love and enthusiasm 

Good one...Yar...

Hum karna kia cha rahey hain akhir? Abhi babur test kia aur ab ababeel...

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## Salza

What happened to the earlier thread which covered the news in much detail ?


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## Blue Marlin



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## Sugarcane

CHACHA"G" said:


> View attachment 371513
> View attachment 371511
> 
> 
> 
> *What happen to above thread , Y its close????????????????*
> @WAJsal , @Khafee , @waz , @Horus , @Emmie , @WebMaster



You have to find the mod who was most excited in that thread, he is the culprit who in excitement deleted whole thread instead of single post.

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## Side-Winder

Whats wrong mods?
Why was the previous thread after it got hot, removed?


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## The SC

Congratulations

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## krash

Asfandyar Bhittani said:


> Here you go
> View attachment 371515



Isn't that what MIRV is? Haha, man these experts from the east. Our achievements would be half as enjoyful as they are without these guys' comments.

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## RealNapster

LoveIcon said:


> You have to find the mod who was most excited in that thread, he is the culprit who in excitement deleted whole thread instead of single post.


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## Salza

This test is major capability enhancement thus putting entire Indian missile defense systems to rest.


----------



## H!TchHiker

This following verse invites Muslims to be strong: (Believers make ready against them whatever you can of force and horses assigned (for war), that thereby you may dismay the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides them, of whom (and the nature of whose enmity) you may be unaware. God is aware of them (and of the nature of their enmity). Whatever you spend in Gods cause will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. (Al-Anfal Surah, 8:60)
*And here we go..Atleast somewhere we are following..

Long live Pakistan..The land of pure*

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Guys...Its a wonderful and proud moment...

But think like enemy's way...

What if our missiles get neutralized by laser defence shield or ballistic missile shield...???

Israelis are greatly helping India in this regard...


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## razgriz19

Asfandyar Bhittani said:


> Here you go
> View attachment 371515


It's true. But that's how the naming system works. If you change a design substantially, it warrants a new name. Sticking a huge MIRV on top of Shaheen II/III justifies a name change.


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## Burhan Wani

H!TchHiker said:


> This following verse invites Muslims to be strong: (Believers make ready against them whatever you can of force and horses assigned (for war), that thereby you may dismay the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides them, of whom (and the nature of whose enmity) you may be unaware. God is aware of them (and of the nature of their enmity). Whatever you spend in Gods cause will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. (Al-Anfal Surah, 8:60)
> *And here we go..Atleast somewhere we are following..
> 
> Long live Pakistan..The land of pure*


One of my favorite verse.

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## Mrc

There is more fire coming outside randian back side than from ababeels nozzles

Some randians may get launched into soace tonight


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## Pakistani E

Asfandyar Bhittani said:


> Here you go
> View attachment 371515



Still not as fake as Sir G Kal Strike.

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## Malik Usman

Asfandyar Bhittani said:


> Here you go
> View attachment 371515



What is he, a Rocket Scientist ???.............when elephant pass people like him stand on their tales and starts ******.......don't gave them bone.......yes according to him they are same as they looks like same he has no idea what is inside.....as they are used to, to see the failures of their missiles and now they start beveling everything is scrap......


----------



## Djinn

Side-Winder said:


> Whats wrong mods?
> Why was the previous thread after it got hot, removed?


May be it got hacked by the Bharteez?


----------



## Mrc

razgriz19 said:


> It's true. But that's how the naming system works. If you change a design substantially, it warrants a new name. Sticking a huge MIRV on top of Shaheen II/III justifies a name change.




Can u see the diametre of missiles in both pics??


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## PaklovesTurkiye

This is what I m talking about...Our missiles are vulnerable against lasers and other anti missile weapons

*The U.S. Navy is moving at warp speed to develop lasers with more lethality, precision and power sources as a way to destroy attacking missiles, drones aircraft and other threats. 

The Navy plans to fire a 150-kw weapon off a test ship within a year, he said. “Then a year later, we’ll have that on a carrier or a destroyer or both.”

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/us-navy-...rom-destroyers-carriers.474188/#ixzz4Wh6LutW9*

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## foxtrot1

The mod deleted the whole thread? LMFAO!

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## saaju

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Why the previous thread got deleted? I wanted to read so many replies with so much love and enthusiasm
> 
> 
> Me too wanted to read all replies most specially replies from Indian members  ...but don't know what happened to the previous thread


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## RangeMaster

Good work engineers....
Congratulations to the Armed forces of Pakistan.
Finally we made it...

Another addition to our nucler arsenal.

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## razgriz19

Mrc said:


> Can u see the diametre of missiles in both pics??


you can't compare diameter in both pictures. There's no reference to do that accurately. Ababeel may look "skinnier" due to a bigger RV as its carrying multiple warheads hence MIRV.


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## foxtrot1

By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?


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## CHACHA"G"

LoveIcon said:


> You have to find the mod who was most excited in that thread, he is the culprit who in excitement deleted whole thread instead of single post.


30 *Pages , lots of happiness , millions of tons of Prayers and Best Wishes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Just ............... wasted......by .............................................................WHOME.........................???? 
I guess I know ????????????????? do I know ??????? No I don't know .


Hello all
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhoooooooooo

ALLAH-o-AKBAR ......
Great News,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, What if I say its not the main reason behind US's sanctions on Pakistan............................ My blood is GREEN................ There are more surprises some are 5 years old and some even more ............... If your Blood is Green then U all Know what I mean.
Well done ,,,,,,, Great Job ,,,,,,,, May ALLAH Bless and Protect all those scientists and engineers and all other staff. *

پاکستان کا ایس ایس ایم میزائل "ابابیل" کا کامیاب تجربہ۔۔۔۔میزائل بائیس سو کلو میٹر فاصلے تک مار کرنے کی صلاحیت رکھتا ہے۔۔۔آرمی چیف جنرل قمر جاوید باجوہ کی تجربہ کرنے والی ٹیم اور پاک افواج کو مبارکباد۔۔آئی ایس پی آر













__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1025674530909902





#Pakistan took minimal measures to restore deterrence equation, by successfully testing #MIRV #missile, Ababeel. The system has been developed to defeat #Indian Ballistic #Missile #Defence (#BMD) shield. The test will definitely restore #deterrence stability and regional peace is critical.

#RAF team tried to figure out an approximate range of the missile. And the result shows the missile will cover whole India









Press Release 



* 
No PR47/2017-ISPR Dated: January 24, 2017 
Rawalpindi - January 24, 2017: 
Pakistan has conducted its first successful flight test of Surface to Surface Ballistic Missile Ababeel, which has a maximum range of 2200 kilometers. The missile is capable of delivering multiple warheads, using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology. The test flight was aimed at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system.*

*Ababeel is capable of carrying nuclear warheads and has the capability to engage multiple targets with high precision, defeating the enemy’s hostile radars. Development of Ababeel Weapon System is aimed at ensuring survivability of Pakistan’s ballistic missiles in the growing regional Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) environment. This will further reinforce deterrence.*

*CJCSC, COAS, CNS and CAS have congratulated the Scientists and Engineers on successful conduct of missile test.*

*President and Prime Minister of Pakistan conveyed their appreciation to the team involved and armed forces of Pakistan on this landmark achievement.
*
@The Sandman , @The SC , @django , @Zibago , @Zarvan , @Ulla , @Tipu7 , @Moonlight

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## Salza

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> This is what I m talking about...Our missiles are vulnerable against lasers and other anti missile weapons
> 
> *The U.S. Navy is moving at warp speed to develop lasers with more lethality, precision and power sources as a way to destroy attacking missiles, drones aircraft and other threats.
> 
> The Navy plans to fire a 150-kw weapon off a test ship within a year, he said. “Then a year later, we’ll have that on a carrier or a destroyer or both.”
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/us-navy-...rom-destroyers-carriers.474188/#ixzz4Wh6LutW9*



Lol that star wars technology is decades away still by then much more capable missiles will be produced

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## BHarwana

Asfandyar Bhittani said:


> Here you go


What is wrong with this, This is the biggest proof that we made it and what we tested today is not an achievement in a Missile engine or motor but an achievement in Space technology and war head. They are stupid people still stuck with the engines and motors. It is the war head that has to make the re entry and deception for ABM systems. We just demonstrated our ambition to reach in space. We just showed the world that we can launch multiple satellites. We just showed the world that we can make re-entry. It will take India 30 years to achieve this. We used shaheen 2 or shaheen 3 rockets what difference it makes. Todays launch was not a demonstration of a missile but a MIRV platform. For a third world country it is a big achievement they are stupid and this shows how less knowledge their experts have, India has no MIRV how will they asses us. India has just Dump missiles.


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## abbasniazi

*ALLAH-U-AALA-WA-AKBAR...ALHAMDULILLAH*
DIL KO SUKOON, ROOH KO ARAAM AA GAYA....

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## Mrc

razgriz19 said:


> you can't compare diameter in both pictures. There's no reference to do that accurately. Ababeel may look "skinnier" due to a bigger RV as its carrying multiple warheads hence MIRV.




U cant compare any thing u idiot... different pics different angles different distances....
Use your brain for god sake...

All you can say is both are white


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Salman Zahidi said:


> Lol that star wars technology is decades away still by then much more capable will be produced



Still...Bro...We don't know how much technology of laser get matured....Its better to prepare for worst rather than writing off that threat irresponsibly ..


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## Salza

foxtrot1 said:


> By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?



Lol here comes our first butt hurt neighbor in this new thread

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## Skyliner

Mods wtf why did you deleted that thread.
Who ever deleted it will stay mehroom from methae.

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## Pak_ Av8er

foxtrot1 said:


> By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?



LMAO and randi rona from the Indian contingent has started

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## krash

foxtrot1 said:


> By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?



Hahahaha, thanks for this. What would this forum be without the likes of you?

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## Mrc

Pak_ Av8er said:


> LMAO and randi rona from the Indian contingent has started




Missile is fake... its white... mirv missiles have to be blue

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## Cyberian

foxtrot1 said:


> By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?



It says here:
www.ispr.gov.pk


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## singlefighter

Asfandyar Bhittani said:


> Here you go
> View attachment 371515



Lakh di lanat bheejo bhai in indians par, jal jal k rang dekho inkay kaisay ho gai hain

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## RealNapster

foxtrot1 said:


> By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?



i am saying the same thing. it's a fake and exaggerated news.

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## Salza

Btw any update on the restoration of previous thread ? That was an historic thread ..

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## My-Analogous

@MOD @Horus @WebMaster please merge this thread with old one

thank you

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## PaklovesTurkiye

@MastanKhan @Oscar 

Your comments on this new development...

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## Basel

HAIDER said:


> Pakistan has successfully conducted first flight test of surface-to-surface nuclear-capable missile ‘Ababeel’, said Pakistan military. The missile is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead up to 2,200 kms, which brings many Indian cities within its striking range. Ababeel is capable of delivering multiple warheads using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology, Army spokesman Major General Asif Ghafoor said in a statement. “The test flight was aimed
> at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system,” he said.



Awesome news and start for MIRV systems.


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## Skyliner

foxtrot1 said:


> By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?


You don't have to wait much to witness MIRV. Just keep your a*s hanging.

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## GumNaam

Nara e takbeer Allah hu Akbar

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## HAIDER

Basel said:


> Awesome news and start for MIRV systems.


Whole attraction is MIRV. Otherwise it will be just another news. Let's wait and see when Pak send its monkey in the space.

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## foxtrot1

SUPARCO said:


> It says here:
> www.ispr.gov.pk





> The missile is capable of delivering multiple warheads, using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology. The test flight was aimed at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system.
> 
> Ababeel is capable of carrying nuclear warheads and has the capability to engage multiple targets with high precision, defeating the enemy’s hostile radars.




^^This is what ISPR says. It does not say they actually tested the IRV/MIRV. Most of the missiles are capable to carry the MIRV's and as per the design of this new missile, it is capable of accommodating 3 RVs but the challenge is basically to develop the Independent re-entry Vehicle.

Like this one here, where Agni 1 was launched with single IRV. Terminal phase visual evidence.

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## Fawad alam

Congratulations again to all Pakistanis, May God bless our Nuclear and Missile scientists and engineers,
Ameen

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## PaklovesTurkiye

@cabatli_53 @Shotgunner51 @Chinese-Dragon @ghazi768

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## RealNapster

My-Analogous said:


> @MOD @Horus @WebMaster please merge this thread with old one
> 
> thank you




Old one nahe raha................ nimaz-e-janaza kal subha 8 bajy Parhaae jaye ge.

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## razgriz19

Mrc said:


> U cant compare any thing u idiot... different pics different angles different distances....
> Use your brain for god sake...
> 
> All you can say is both are white



That's exactly what i said


----------



## singlefighter

foxtrot1 said:


> By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?



Fittay mou apka

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## nomi007

we need to develop anti missile technology more than ballistic missile technology


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## Pak_ Av8er

foxtrot1 said:


> ^^This is what ISPR says. It does not say they actually tested the IRV/MIRV
> 
> Like this one here, where Agni 1 was launched with single IRV. Terminal phase visual evidence.



Then you shouldn't worry as much as you are, should you?


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## Zarvan



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## Cyberian

foxtrot1 said:


> ^^This is what ISPR says. It does not say they actually tested the IRV/MIRV. Most of the missiles are capable to carry the MIRV's and as per the design of this new missile, it is capable of accommodating 3 RVs but the challenge is basically to develop the Independent re-entry Vehicle.
> 
> Like this one here, where Agni 1 was launched with single IRV. Terminal phase visual evidence.



Pakistani military releases/declassifies information as it sees necessary.

You'll just have to try and sleep not knowing the full specs.



Zarvan said:


>



Wow that was quick, neat and impressive brother.

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## Skyliner

RealNapster said:


> Old one nahe raha................ nimaz-e-janaza kal subha 8 bajy Parhaae jaye ge.


Moqa-e-wardat pay atangwadion ke yalghar. Jahe waqu par Janne nuksan, allakae log mehfooz lain kuch border par say Anna wally atangwadion janbahak na-kabile shinakht Jhulsee hoe lashen millen! 

Cameraman Tariq k sat
Ameen Hafeez
GEO NEWS.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Too bad the thread was deleted so many new people visited the forum (even few retired mods) however and there was really breaking stuff as the news developed in early minutes.......However, it gives us twice the reason to congradulate the second time!!! one more time


Alhamdulilah !
Congrats to Scientist on the achivement , and their hard work

Congradulation to Pakistani citizens , our friends , and of course our wonderful armed forces

MIRV tech , a remarkable achivement.

"Based on the tale in Quran , about birds that were sent to defend Kaaba from Terror of invading forces, the birds dropped multiple stones onto incoming armies in tremendous numbers from heights of sky" - which then became the ideal reference for the MIRV missile Ababeel

The timing of the missile impecable considering the dangers to two holy mosque from Terrorism


And here goes the silly wave one more tim

*Before Ababeel *






After Launch

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## RealNapster

Skyliner said:


> Moqa-e-wardat pay atangwadion ke yalghar. Jahe waqu par Janne nuksan, allakae log mehfooz lain kuch border par say Anna wally atangwadion janbahak na-kabile shinakht Jhulsee hoe lashen millen!
> 
> Cameraman Tariq k sat
> Ameen Hafeez
> GEO NEWS.





Itilaat kay mutaabik mastermind aik mod hay. 

na-maloom mod kay khilaaf FIR darj.

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## singlefighter

Sab bhaiyon ko bohat bohat mubarak ho ye kamyab test of MIRV

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## Skyliner

RealNapster said:


> Itilaat kay mutaabik mastermind aik mod hay.
> 
> na-maloom mod kay khilaaf FIR darj.


ISPR ke yakeen dahae mod k khelaf karwae ke jae ge or sakht say sakht saza De jae ge. Military court may case darj.

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## CriticalThinker02

MIRV this is huge

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## RealNapster

Skyliner said:


> ISPR ke yakeen dahae mod k khelaf karwae ke jar ge or sakht say sakht saza De jae ge. Military court may case darj.

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## :::warrior:::

Asfandyar Bhittani said:


> Here you go
> View attachment 371515


They might try to prove that Pakistan is located in Mars and shaheen is basically gifted to Pakistan by india

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## Kamran Abbasi



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## Isra raj

HAIDER said:


> Pakistan has successfully conducted first flight test of surface-to-surface nuclear-capable missile ‘Ababeel’, said Pakistan military. The missile is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead up to 2,200 kms, which brings many Indian cities within its striking range. Ababeel is capable of delivering multiple warheads using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology, Army spokesman Major General Asif Ghafoor said in a statement. “The test flight was aimed
> at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system,” he said.
> 
> MIRV concept


Great zabardast


----------



## Cent4

Congrats all. What happened to the old thread ???

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## krash

foxtrot1 said:


> ^^This is what ISPR says. It does not say they actually tested the IRV/MIRV. Most of the missiles are capable to carry the MIRV's and as per the design of this new missile, it is capable of accommodating 3 RVs but the challenge is basically to develop the Independent re-entry Vehicle.
> 
> Like this one here, where Agni 1 was launched with single IRV. Terminal phase visual evidence.



We apologize that the Pakistani scientists and ISPR had the audacity not to take into account the absolute need of providing visual proof to you. 

All is not lost though, maybe you could just wait for the multiple mushroom clouds outside your window.

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## Cyberian

foxtrot1 said:


> No your argument is flawed. There is difference between MIRV and MRV. No doubt this missile can accommodate multiple Re-entry Vehicles. But MIRV? Targetable RV? Needs to be tested because.. this technology derives from ren entry space capsules. Has Pakistan tested any?
> 
> difference between MRV and MIRV
> 
> By contrast a unitary warhead is a single warhead on a single missile. An intermediate case is the multiple reentry vehicle (MRV) missile which carries several warheads which are dispersed but not individually aimed



Like I said, you'll just have to try and sleep not knowing the full details. Alternatively, you can always ask the Americans why they've recently imposed sanctions on 10 Pakistani nuke/missile firms.

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## Zarvan

SUPARCO said:


> Pakistani military releases/declassifies information as it sees necessary.
> 
> You'll just have to try and sleep not knowing the full specs.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow that was quick, neat and impressive brother.


I didn't do it, these are made by @Stealth

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## M@rKhor

ALHAMDULILLAH....

ABABEEL muuuuuuuuaaahh...

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## TOPGUN

Congrats to PA and to all Pakistani's, a job well done indeed.

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## Cyberian

Great work @Stealth on the Ababeel poster.

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## BHarwana

kṣamā said:


> Sir ji to phir NASA, SpaceX, ESA aur ISRO ko dukan bandh karne bol de? In bachho ko kaya malum rocket ke bare me... aap hi thoda samjha de


Sirrrrrrr Jee yeh tu uper ki baat hai, Dukan band kar lein ya khool kar rahkain NASA aur Space X ki marzi but one thing is for sure Russian ki Dukan khuli hui hai, Tell Modi to pay billions and buy more S400 lol.  Got it Sirrrrr Jeeeeeeeee


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## The Eagle

CHACHA"G" said:


> View attachment 371513
> View attachment 371511
> 
> 
> 
> *What happen to above thread , Y its close????????????????*
> @WAJsal , @Khafee , @waz , @Horus , @Emmie , @WebMaster





Side-Winder said:


> Whats wrong mods?
> Why was the previous thread after it got hot, removed?



let me have the honour to tell a bit: Occurred an error, reported to Weby and he is looking into the matter.

@Fenrir our viking mod is also fighting the error/issue for us....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*Multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle*
(MIRV)






Yes it finally happened



2017

First the Submarine based Babur 3
Now ABABEEL

Fantastic image that describes the story of ABABEEL
'Miracle of Ababeel' quite popular tale from Quran

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## foxtrot1

SUPARCO said:


> Like I said, you'll just have to try and sleep not knowing the full details. Alternatively, you can always ask the Americans why they've recently imposed sanctions on 10 Pakistani nuke/missile firms.



Because those 7 were getting cosy with the china for taking the missile technology  And there fore there were sanctions. US was rather your ally in war on terrorism.

Secondly, I again ask you, did SUPARCO conduct any test of re entry vehicle that you claim to possess MIRV technology? I again say MRV and MIRV are two different things. MIRV is itself guided warhead and MRV is not. Even as per today the most advance countries have failed multiple times while testing it because of errors in guidance at 6km/s .
It's basically the work of electronics and supercomputer involved which can provide and update missile path in nano seconds.


----------



## YeBeWarned

The moment i like about every Pakistani Missile Test is when they say on Speaker before Launch ..

5....4.....3.....2.....1 Launch .. Naaaaraaaaayeeeee TAKBEEEEEER ............Allah Ho Akber. that give goose bumps to me every time 

Congratulation to all Pakistani Members here on PDF .. we Win this race with India getting a MIRV technology first, Inshallah we will beat Indians to 5th Generation Air crafts too

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## The Eagle

foxtrot1 said:


> By the way where does it say in the news , that Pakistan TESTED MIRV? It just says that it is _capable of carrying MIRV_. Well most of the missiles have that capability. So any EVIDENCE?



So how would you say.... A MIRV missile is fired or A MIRV capable missile is test fired..... Capable isn't enough to prove that what actually it is.... Did we claim the same things "Capable with any missile"... Mentioning as "Capable" means target achieved, here. So, any nation tested any weapon with word "Capable" is actually not a proof at all.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

One thing is clear...In case of any conflict with India, chances of using missiles by Pakistan are increasing exponentially...

I mean, there is so much variety available right now, Tactical missiles or strategic missiles...How the **** any one can resist the temptation?

Pakistan relies heavily on missiles and considers it basic punch from the beginning (since start of our nuke program)...

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## Peaceful Civilian

Wow, this is great news, Another milestone. Finally we got MIRV technology which Is must against India defense system.
Congrats to Scientists & engineers.


----------



## S.U.R.B.

Dispersing nuclear warheads is another major technological challenge.But it poses even bigger challenge for the party at the receiving end.​
For the members, the following book is a good read.






Doesn't mention about what we have achieved in 2017 (as it was released in 2016).But it's a fine summary for starters.Can be read here. \/\/\/
http://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/55513451/mirvs/18


The following talk about the book will give you a good background about how the technology has evolved over the years.

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## CriticalThinker02

abdulbarijan said:


> We seem to be on a roll lately ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @The Deterrent .. Any tidbits regarding the number of warheads that can independently be delivered from this system or is that classified as of now?



Oh yes we are, Allah u Akbar Pakistan Zindabad.


----------



## simplestguy

Sloth 22 said:


> No.


According to wikipedia both have.


----------



## iLION12345_1

I just visited the Indian Defence forum to see what they had to say about this , this was my first visit there and I have to say I was quite surprised , they are so pathetic and immature , personal insults , death threats and what not , and they ask why people don't like them , those words give an impression of their country , they can go ruin themselves I guess.
on topic : awesome achievement, I'm still laughing at the immaturity of the butthurt indians.

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## foxtrot1

The Eagle said:


> So how would you say.... A MIRV missile is fired or A MIRV capable missile is test fired..... Capable isn't enough to prove that what actually it is.... Did we claim the same things "Capable with any missile"... Mentioning as "Capable" means target achieved, here. So, any nation tested any weapon with word "Capable" is actually not a proof at all.




Because last time when Shaheens were test fired they were also MIRV capable. And now this. And I need to update your knowledge regarding warheads I guess. Only if @HRK doesn't give me a negative marking for posting technical data

As I said, a Missile can be fired with a warhead or without a warhead. As per the claims by ISPR, the missile is capable of carrying multiple warheads. Now the catch is what kind of warheads. 2,3 RV or 2,3 targetable RV?

Allowing 5 warheads in a single missile and dumping them over a specific area and they do a free fall is not a big deal for any country which knows how to build 1st generation rockets. It's like cluster warhead.

The whole of the fuzz is about if these warheads are targetable? Which is not possible to develop if the country does not independently test one of them. Because the warhead is itself a guided missile launched at terminal phase and has ability to glide and target. Pakistan as per today never tested any space capsule from where this technology can be derived. And most of the nations who already possess MIRV technology or space capsules technology still at times fail during tests. This deals with supercomputation in the role of telemetry and no country is allowed to provide such a high grade super computation device for guidance. As on today Pakistan may have developed the technology to miniaturise the warhead by 0.7 times but it lacks in guidance due to unviability of resources for supercomputation in guidance.

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> @HRK , Dear, waiting for all the close ups and dissected images and arrows.



nothing left to be further investigate or describe ....pic is quite clear ....


----------



## The Deterrent

Windjammer said:


> Whatever happened to the NOTAMS.


NOTAMs were issued, however the NAVAREA warnings (which provide exact coordinates) weren't available online. I would appreciate if anybody has them.


HRK said:


> Sir jee paar nahi jalain gay ....because it seems it was tested for 1500KM -1800KM with in the geographical boundary of Pakistan ....



This one was aimed at much lesser range. The purpose was to verify functionality of the entire missile. We can assume that the RVs were not deployed at independent trajectories in this test. However the maximum range will not go beyond the limit set by Pakistan.


Tipu7 said:


> @Windjammer @The Eagle @HRK @The Deterrent
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 371476


This is wrongly labeled.


IceCold said:


> Why just why? Don't we have threats beyond India as well considering not very long ago we were threatened to be bombed back to stone age. This surely should count for something?


Sadly we do not have the resources to target any other potential enemy besides India. I respect your emotions, however this is how its going to be.

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## A.A. Khan

Amazing feat for Pakistan which is well on its way to develop icbm. Best reply to rapistanis.


----------



## foxtrot1

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Wow, this is great news, Another milestone. Finally we got MIRV technology which Is must against India defense system.
> Congrats to Scientists & engineers.



Indian ABM targets the missile before it reaches the terminal phase.


----------



## sparten

foxtrot1 said:


> Indian ABM targets the missile before it reaches the terminal phase.


No it dosn't . They only system that targets warhead before terminal phase is the US GMD, which has had a plethora of failures.

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## foxtrot1

HRK said:


> nothing left to be further investigate or describe ....pic is quite clear ....



Many not just me would like to see the RV falling , from the test video. Not because Pakistan tested it but they look good.


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## Peaceful Civilian

foxtrot1 said:


> Indian ABM targets the missile before it reaches the terminal phase.


You should read about MIRV then come here. It is not easy to detect those. Each can carry multiple warheads , and can work as separate & independent when needed to reach target.

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## Taimoor Khan

Zarvan said:


>



Its definitely southern Pakistan looking at terrain and if I am not wrong, the bird flying around are seagulls. 

Was there any NOTAM issued?

Can't spot in the video but would be a sucker punch if the missile was fired from TEL.

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## Cookie Monster

Haystack said:


> When are the experts going to debunk this lie of Pakistan?


As soon as some Raj tweets about it

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## sparten

foxtrot1 said:


> Indian ABM targets the missile before it reaches the terminal phase.


No it dosn't . They only system that targets warhead before terminal phase is the US GMD, which has had a plethora of failures.

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## foxtrot1

sparten said:


> No it dosn't . They only system that targets warhead before terminal phase is the US GMD, which has had a plethora of failures.



it does that's why one is exo atmospheric and endo atmospheric. It's common sense if a missile is detected to be launched then the interceptor would immediately be launched to target the missile.

Targeting an RV is close to impossible and not reliable.


----------



## Bossman

foxtrot1 said:


> Because last time when Shaheens were test fired they were also MIRV capable. And now this. And I need to update your knowledge regarding warheads I guess. Only if @HRK doesn't give me a negative marking for posting technical data
> 
> As I said, a Missile can be fired with a warhead or without a warhead. As per the claims by ISPR, the missile is capable of carrying multiple warheads. Now the catch is what kind of warheads. 2,3 RV or 2,3 targetable RV?
> 
> Allowing 5 warheads in a single missile and dumping them over a specific area and they do a free fall is not a big deal for any country which knows how to build 1st generation rockets. It's like cluster warhead.
> 
> The whole of the fuzz is about if these warheads are targetable? Which is not possible to develop if the country does not independently test one of them. Because the warhead is itself a guided missile launched at terminal phase and has ability to glide and target. Pakistan as per today never tested any space capsule from where this technology can be derived. And most of the nations who already possess MIRV technology or space capsules technology still at times fail during tests. This deals with supercomputation in the role of telemetry and no country is allowed to provide such a high grade super computation device for guidance. As on today Pakistan may have developed the technology to miniaturise the warhead by 0.7 times but it lacks in guidance due to unviability of resources for supercomputation in guidance.





foxtrot1 said:


> Because last time when Shaheens were test fired they were also MIRV capable. And now this. And I need to update your knowledge regarding warheads I guess. Only if @HRK doesn't give me a negative marking for posting technical data
> 
> As I said, a Missile can be fired with a warhead or without a warhead. As per the claims by ISPR, the missile is capable of carrying multiple warheads. Now the catch is what kind of warheads. 2,3 RV or 2,3 targetable RV?
> 
> Allowing 5 warheads in a single missile and dumping them over a specific area and they do a free fall is not a big deal for any country which knows how to build 1st generation rockets. It's like cluster warhead.
> 
> The whole of the fuzz is about if these warheads are targetable? Which is not possible to develop if the country does not independently test one of them. Because the warhead is itself a guided missile launched at terminal phase and has ability to glide and target. Pakistan as per today never tested any space capsule from where this technology can be derived. And most of the nations who already possess MIRV technology or space capsules technology still at times fail during tests. This deals with supercomputation in the role of telemetry and no country is allowed to provide such a high grade super computation device for guidance. As on today Pakistan may have developed the technology to miniaturise the warhead by 0.7 times but it lacks in guidance due to unviability of resources for supercomputation in guidance.



The ISPR press release clearly says MIRV not MRV and how do you know Pakistan does not have the capability for supercomputation? Are you the Mishra guy who debated a few months ago that Pakistan cannot produce SLCM? BTW SUPARCO did not test MIRV because SUPARCO is not responsible for Pakistan's missile program, NESCOM is. Indians like you think you are the smartest in the world but are nothing but uninformed, self denying, delusional fools with their heads in their a$$es and laughing stock of the whole world

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## HRK

foxtrot1 said:


> @HRK



restrain form personal attck for negative rating I have mention the reason contact moderator; it was not given for any TECHNICAL DATA (*which you haven't posted yet*) ... so don't play victim card ....

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## monitor

2017 starting with bang from Pakistan first submarine lauch cruse missile and then MIRV capable ballastic missile.

*Congratulations to Pakistan for achieving another milestone .*

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## foxtrot1

Bossman said:


> The ISPR press release clearly says MIRV not MRV and how do you know Pakistan does not have the capability for supercomputation? Are you the Mishra guy who debated a few months ago that Pakistan cannot produce SLCM? BTW SUPARCO did not test MIRV because SUPARCO is not responsible for Pakistan's missile program, NESCOM is. Uniformed, self denying, delusional fools. Laughing stock of the whole world.



It is not about whether suparco conducted it or not but it's about facilities and expertise. Anyways ISPR earlier said similar about MIRV technology on shaheens. Well makes no difference. We know what they have.


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

rana MRL said:


> My wild guess if when ever we have SLBM in future ... then Ababeel missile will be strong candidate to be SLBM .....


Let see if we are getting 8 submarines with VLS or not. More details to come

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## BHarwana

foxtrot1 said:


> it does that's why one is exo atmospheric and endo atmospheric. It's common sense if a missile is detected to be launched then the interceptor would immediately be launched to target the missile.
> 
> Targeting an RV is close to impossible and not reliable.


If you want to target Pakistani missiles immediately after Launch then you need very fast interceptors because if you check the speed of shaheen 3 there is no interceptor in the world that can chase it down. No country posses such interceptors

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## jaydee

I wonder what US achieves by sanctioning us ??!!
1) They sanctioned F16,but we made JF 17
2) They sanctioned us but we still created nukes in all sizes.
3) They backstabbed us by sponsoring India for NSG unilaterally,we did khushab 4.
4) They sanctioned our missile entities but we did MIRV and SLCM tests.

Dahi mango to kheer denge,....................................

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## Kamran Abbasi

DAYUM THIS POST IS FUN

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Just a suggestion , someone changed the "Title of the thread in morning after it was confirmed it was a MIRV" after the thread was started perhaps that may be the reason why the forum is acting up on this particular thread, a wild guess. May be the change did not get updated in all systems correctly if the site suffered minor down time


Worth a quick check if that may be indirectly effecting some of the issues on the site i.e clicking and page links


----------



## Skyliner

*Thread recovered jeeo MODs, khush kitta ee *

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## foxtrot1

Peaceful Civilian said:


> You should read about MIRV then come here. It is not easy to detect those. Each can carry multiple warheads , and can work as separate & independent when needed to reach target.



It is also not easy to detect aim and target a simple RV forget MIRV. This is why any ABM interceptor will try to intercept the incoming projectile before it releases the warhead. Every ABM system is designed as per range of incoming missile.
This is why India developed exo atmospheric and endo atmospheric.


----------



## Hyde

Areesh said:


> Its a fake test. Look at the color of the missile. It changes from white to black to violet to indigo to orange.


Haha 100 sunaar ki 1 lohar ki hahaha

Congratulations Pakistan. So glas to hear that

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## The Deterrent

foxtrot1 said:


> It is also not easy to detect aim and target a simple RV forget MIRV. This is why any ABM interceptor will try to intercept the incoming projectile before it releases the warhead. Every ABM system is designed as per range of incoming missile.
> This is why India developed exo atmospheric and endo atmospheric.


Did you know that MIRVs begin deployment as soon as the boost phase ends?
Stop lecturing other people on things that you don't know about. Be a good little man, and study how ballistic missiles and MIRVs work. A good example is Minuteman-III, a specific one is RSD-10 Pioneer.

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## Hyde

Skyliner said:


> *Thread recovered jeeo MODs, khush kitta ee *


I think It was deleted by mistake so had to be recovered


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## Kamran Abbasi

@The Deterrent sahi kaha  ye aik he bakwas kre jarah hai aisa lagta hai masters ke 5 degrees hain iske pass :3


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## foxtrot1

The Deterrent said:


> Did you know that MIRVs begin deployment as soon as the boost phase ends?
> Stop lecturing other people on things that you don't know about. Be a good little man, and study how ballistic missiles and MIRVs work. A good example is Minuteman-III, a specific one is RSD-10 Pioneer.



the minuteman III is not 1200km range IRBM it's a true ICBM. The MIRV or any MRV are deployed as per the range of missile and distance from ground zero


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## Skyliner

Thanks sir. Im on pg 25 it's fun to read all comments! @Zaki

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## The Eagle

foxtrot1 said:


> Only if @HRK doesn't give me a negative marking for posting technical data



I am sure you understand the difference between technical data and a post that deserves -tive rating.... But still, people with such powers are also aware that where to use and the same can be challenged if any member has any issue so I would suggest you to go to GHQ Section and post a thread which wouldn't visible to the readers except Concerned Staff.




foxtrot1 said:


> And now this. And I need to update your knowledge regarding warheads I guess.



Yes, why not as I don't mind when it comes to learn and education hence, posted a question to you. 

(However, on lighter note, that wasn't necessary to remind me but still no issue). 




foxtrot1 said:


> As I said, a Missile can be fired with a warhead or without a warhead. As per the claims by ISPR, the missile is capable of carrying multiple warheads. Now the catch is what kind of warheads. 2,3 RV or 2,3 targetable RV?
> 
> Allowing 5 warheads in a single missile and dumping them over a specific area and they do a free fall is not a big deal for any country which knows how to build 1st generation rockets. It's like cluster warhead.
> 
> The whole of the fuzz is about if these warheads are targetable? Which is not possible to develop if the country does not independently test one of them. Because the warhead is itself a guided missile launched at terminal phase and has ability to glide and target. Pakistan as per today never tested any space capsule from where this technology can be derived. And most of the nations who already possess MIRV technology or space capsules technology still at times fail during tests. This deals with supercomputation in the role of telemetry and no country is allowed to provide such a high grade super computation device for guidance. As on today Pakistan may have developed the technology to miniaturise the warhead by 0.7 times but it lacks in guidance due to unviability of resources for supercomputation in guidance.



Well, the thing I understand from your post suggests that it needs supercomputation which is not possible without super computer that we don't have. Right.... So IMO, that is not the boundary for the first stage test that verifies the delivery system and its functionality. However, to verify the same, official confirmation would be required and for the time being, I will take ISPR words that are not only for India but the whole world reads it carefully and none made any contradictory assessment except our Indian friends which is usual. 

The point you made is a theoretical requirement and India itself hasn't verified the same yet or did it. MIRV capable, means it functions properly on first stage, therefore, it was called Ababeel-1 Test Fired. Hope you understand these words though I am not much educated. So, from now-on we will be working on next phase like physical RV and it's impact/hit, trajectory with load etc but what you ask was actually you have an impression that we deployed the Missile in active service without doing all the ground stuff. This test gave us the capability and we are on track. The date/words shared are for public domain and if you don't want to read or believe, no issue at all but you cannot plainly deny the capability just because ABC, Your or anyone else couldn't understand it or due to nationalism. Let see if countries like US etc denies what ISPR said because we never accept India as certification or as an approving authority but we believe what ISPR said and all the rest is, guess work, analysis by the informed members etc. So hopefully, you will understand and will wait for further details. 

Just for the sake of arguments, a hour or so before, yourself quoted a link of thread from 2010 and you stated that we had it but late etc.... yet we came with contradiction about such.... I hope that your quote wouldn't be needed here again however, a good read from your own reference/link of PDF thread. (remember).


*Pakistan's growing nuclear programme*


----------



## nahmed69

its Chinese name is "BC Dong"

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Must be difficult to be in foxtrot1 shoes but I am sure the missile will change color on Indian media

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## BHarwana

thesolar65 said:


> Which Chinese missile is this? I mean what is the original Chinese name?


Sirrrrrrrrrrrrrr this was not a missile test but more of a MIRV test. Well it is difficult to make you understand because you people have no idea what MIRV is.

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## Skyliner

thesolar65 said:


> Which Chinese missile is this? I mean what is the original Chinese name?


It's called *A*S BUSTER.*

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## Kamran Abbasi

Having fun reading all those comments

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## CHD

Zarvan said:


> I posted this news on Indian Forum and I am enjoying our neighbors reactions there. It's just lovely


link?


----------



## Hyde

No success in finding news report from Indian news channels so far

Would love to know if it was colour change, chinese copy, fake video, diesel engine blah blah

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## Safriz

HRK said:


> nothing left to be further investigate or describe ....pic is quite clear ....


Did u notice the thrust changes consistency? The color of smoke changes constantly showing change in water vapor percentage? Consistent with change in thrust pressure either due to vectoring or throttling ...i guess?


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## nahmed69

All indians trying hard to somehow declare it is failed fake and false ...


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## Peshwa

Congrats to the Pakistanis!
Hope this soothes the nerves wrt. the constant existential insecurity!

It's india that should be worried now, no?

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## Stealth

thesolar65 said:


> Which Chinese missile is this? I mean what is the original Chinese name?


YAKHONT no no Brahmos LOLZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Diya china nay hey yaan Alien Predator nay yaan kudh banaya hey... par maarna tumhare he ******* may hey.... dont worry

now kutay ke tarhan rootay dhotay rahoo jo ukhaarna hey ukhaarloo lori-day-eooo hahhahahhaa

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## Kamran Abbasi

shaheen missile


----------



## Side-Winder



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## Safriz

Taimoor Khan said:


> Its definitely southern Pakistan looking at terrain and if I am not wrong, the bird flying around are seagulls.
> 
> Was there any NOTAM issued?
> 
> Can't spot in the video but would be a sucker punch if the missile was fired from TEL.


Sonmiani range ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
NOTAM is a service not obligation. Country can skip NOTAm if they think its safe to use the airspace without issuing one.


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## MystryMan

Back to back successful missile tests, first Babar3 and now Abbabeel. Good going Pakistan.

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## NomanAli89

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Why the previous thread got deleted? I wanted to read so many replies with so much love and enthusiasm
> 
> Good one...Yar...
> 
> Hum karna kia cha rahey hain akhir? Abhi babur test kia aur ab ababeel...



HUm Holli Holli ICBM ki taraf ja rahay hein ....

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## Skyliner

Zaki said:


> No success in finding news report from Indian news channels so far


https://www.google.com.pk/amp/m.ind...le-missile-test-ababeel-missile/1/865701.html
NO COMMENTS

India's defence and foreign ministries in New Delhi declined to comment.

Last year, Pakistani officials had expressed serious concern about Indian anti-ballistic missile testing with Pakistani Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz telling the country's Senate that it could lead to the "nuclearisation" of the Indian Ocean.

Both countries have routinely tested ballistic missiles since they first became nuclear capable in 1998.

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## countryman

Stealth said:


> Diya china nay hey yaan Alien Predator nay yaan kudh banaya hey... par maarna tumhare he ******* may hey.... dont worry


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## Kompromat

_Tauheed ki amaanat, seenoon main hai hamary

Aasaan nahee mitaana naam-o-nishaan hamara! _

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## Hyde

Skyliner said:


> https://www.google.com.pk/amp/m.ind...le-missile-test-ababeel-missile/1/865701.html
> NO COMMENTS
> 
> India's defence and foreign ministries in New Delhi declined to comment.
> 
> Last year, Pakistani officials had expressed serious concern about Indian anti-ballistic missile testing with Pakistani Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz telling the country's Senate that it could lead to the "nuclearisation" of the Indian Ocean.
> 
> Both countries have routinely tested ballistic missiles since they first became nuclear capable in 1998.


No news/video report of tv channels?


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Tutorial
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABABEEL , has newer modules , and pieces that were not present in the Other missiles which Pakistan developed in earlier on. Certainly a great technological achivement as "a Deterrant"


maa sadkay, itna shah dil mazzal?

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## Stealth

NomanAli89 said:


> HUm Holli Holli ICBM ki taraf ja rahay hein ....



ham holi holi ICBM ke taraf ja rahay hain aur hamara hasmaya holi holi mazeed chutyaapay wali harkatain karta ja raha hey hahahhahahah after all state run by motu-peetar-modi hhahaha

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## foxtrot1

شاھین میزایل said:


> Did u notice the thrust changes consistency? The color of smoke changes constantly showing change in water vapor percentage? Consistent with change in thrust pressure either due to vectoring or throttling ...i guess?



it has got fins why would it require vectoring. It uses Chinese first stage motor L-SpaB/140B and it has no thrust vectoring.


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## Skyliner

Zaki said:


> No news/video report of tv channels?


No sir abe tak khamooshe ha :p


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Horus said:


> _Tauheed ki amaanat, seenoon main hai hamary
> 
> Aasaan nahee mitaana naam-o-nishaan hamara! _


maa sadkay!

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## SQ8

foxtrot1 said:


> Indian ABM targets the missile before it reaches the terminal phase.


Well then you and your family are safe from being burnt to s crisp
Jao ja ke taali bajao

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## Stealth

*ye South Asia may Itna sanaaata kyoon hai bhi aaj ? HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH*

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## Tipu7

The Deterrent said:


> This is wrongly labeled.


Can you point out corrections?

Its a two stage missile or three stage missile?
Plus is it MARV capable?


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## somebozo

Rafael said:


> Elephant is key here.



Elephant = India..
Dragon = China

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## Stealth

Side-Winder said:


> View attachment 371560



aaj Ami Apa eek hogaye hey.... bohat sanataa hey bhi... Dunya aur uskay muzafaat may aaj kise rootoo mulk kay zaleel honay ka waqt huwa jata hey hahhahahah

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## WaLeEdK2

The shaheen 3 has a stated range of 2750 km. this ababeel seems to be new if I'm not mistaken. Do you think the range is being kept secret because of the MIRV capability? @The Deterrent


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## ghauri05

Salman Zahidi said:


> Lol here comes our first butt hurt neighbor in this new thread


I Think Pak hould place these butt hurt indians in indian ocean at the target point only then they can see a multiple warheads coming towards them n accept that test is valid

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## Windjammer

*Pakistan Tests Ballistic Missile Capable of Carrying Multiple Nuclear Warheads*
January 24, 2017 10:23 AM

Ayaz Gul






In this handout photograph released by Pakistan's Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) on Jan. 24, 2017, an Ababeel surface-to-surface ballistic missile is shown launching from an undisclosed location in Pakistan.


ISLAMABAD — 
Pakistan says it has successfully tested a surface-to-surface ballistic missile that is capable of carrying multiple nuclear warheads and can hit targets with precision as far as 2,200 kilometers.

Tuesday’s maiden flight test of the Ababeel missile was announced by military spokesman Major General Asif Ghafoor. He said it “has the capability to engage multiple targets with high precision, defeating the enemy’s hostile radars.”

Earlier this month, Pakistan successfully tested for the first time a submarine-launched, nuclear-capable cruise missile with a range of 450 kilometers.

Officials say the "Babur-3" missile provides Pakistan with a secure second strike capability.

*Show of force*
*
Tuesday’s Ababeel launch is Pakistan’s attempt to credibly demonstrate its technical ability to defeat “all ballistic missile defense systems” India is developing, says Syed Muhammed Ali, a senior research fellow at Islamabad’s Center for International Strategic Studies.

“This also indicates Pakistan’s scientific expertise to miniaturize its nuclear warheads,” he observed.*

Western critics insist Pakistan has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal in the world, assertions Islamabad dismisses as “misleading.”

Pakistani officials cite close defense and nuclear cooperation between the United States and India for reinforcing its nuclear deterrence capabilities.

The Pakistani prime minister’s foreign policy advisor, Sartaj Aziz, speaking last week to VOA, again underscored the importance of maintaining “strategic stability" in South Asia.

“We have been emphasizing to the U.S. that if you start your defense cooperation and arms agreement in such a way that disturbs our strategic stability, then we will have no option but to respond,” said the de-facto Pakistani foreign minister.

The latest Pakistani missile tests come amid heightened tensions with neighboring India. Militaries of both countries until recent weeks had been engaged in deadly clashes across their disputed Kashmir border.

http://www.voanews.com/a/pakistan-ababeel-missile-test/3689640.html

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## Stealth

Tipu7 said:


> Can you point out corrections?
> 
> Its a two stage missile or three stage missile?
> Plus is it MARV capable?



yaar choorna 2 stage or 20 stage ... maa mar gae hey saath waloon ki ye stage hey b kay nahe par aglay stage dance shuru hogaye hain hahahhahahhahahha

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## Saif al-Arab

Well done. Congratulations to Pakistan.

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## ghauri05

HAIDER said:


> Whole attraction is MIRV. Otherwise it will be just another news. Let's wait and see when Pak send its monkey in the space.


are u referring to indian monkey we caught?

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Kamran Abbasi said:


> DAYUM THIS POST IS FUN


dushman ki &%$^ joo phati hua hai after this ! wait till you see their bogus tv/press coverage on this.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Zarvan said:


> Don't worry How much members here say we won't cross SHAHEEN III limit Pakistan will go for ICBM


For ICBM , we need to give explanation to world, if we don't satisfy their question, then surely sanctions on the way, same reason India will not test more than 5000 km missile, as their enemy is china. And they will not test more than this.
You have to walk with world, otherwise world will drag you 15 years behind due to sanctions. We will not test ICBM. Not going to happen as our enemy is India and our shaheen series covers them well.

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## ghauri05

kuch indians dil ko ye keh k tasali de rhe he k missile is limmer than Shaheen so may be tactical warheads..to shyd bach jayen..,,but upar jo itni bari MIRV carrying stage lagi he wo nazar ni aati

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## somebozo

Pakistan should focus on developing LOX engines a necessary need for space program..

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## Spy Master

Congratulations Pakistan...! And Google Indian news channels...There is ZERO news about this...Only HT reported it


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## The Deterrent

Tipu7 said:


> Can you point out corrections?
> 
> Its a two stage missile or three stage missile?
> Plus is it MARV capable?


I don't have access to editing software, however, after the 2 main stages, the rest of the narrower white section seems to be the third stage. The wider white section must be the MIRV bus. Lastly, the red shroud is the part of the fairing that contains MIRVs.




WaLeEdK2 said:


> The shaheen 3 has a stated range of 2750 km. this ababeel seems to be new if I'm not mistaken. Do you think the range is being kept secret because of the MIRV capability? @The Deterrent


A new system doesn't necessarily has to have longer range. There is no secret, the missile has a range of 2200km with MIRVs.

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## Mutakalim

John Reese said:


> If facts and technical valid arguments are means butthurt to pakistani s then it my pleasure
> 
> We often en feels it when some one shows list of Pakistan Research papers & patents filing to them


Yeah you need to call your Research papers & patents expert @amardeep mishra

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Spy Master said:


> Congratulations Pakistan...! And Google Indian news channels...There is ZERO news about this...Only HT reported it


here is the ticker:
Ganpat Rai, ab tum delhi may ray ga!
@Horus


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## Bossman

foxtrot1 said:


> It is not about whether suparco conducted it or not but it's about facilities and expertise. Anyways ISPR earlier said similar about MIRV technology on shaheens. Well makes no difference. We know what they have.



Just check NESCOM's facilities on Google earth but your issues are in your head and not in reality. Also never underestimate your enemy.


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## Mrc

foxtrot1 said:


> the minuteman III is not 1200km range IRBM it's a true ICBM. The MIRV or any MRV are deployed as per the range of missile and distance from ground zero



U have no idea what y are talking about.. mid course intercept has yet to be attempted and most easy to be countered

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## Pak_ Av8er

Windjammer said:


> * DOT HEAD HUNTER .!!!*


 Its called 'Dhoti mein Dhmaka!'

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## Burhan Wani

Peaceful Civilian said:


> For ICBM , we need to give explanation to world, if we don't satisfy their question, then surely sanctions on the way, same reason India will not test more than 5000 km missile, as their enemy is china. And they will not test more than this.
> You have to walk with world, otherwise world will drag you 15 years behind due to sanctions. We will not test ICBM. Not going to happen as our enemy is India and our shaheen series covers them well.


Our enemy is ISIL.
You can raise this point. That this missile has been designed to ruin nights of Khawarijies. Got my point?

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## ghauri05

thesolar65 said:


> Which Chinese missile is this? I mean what is the original Chinese name?


bhai 38 pages guzar gaye..tera hi intzaar ho rha ta
here comes the first indian.....who says it out loud....he deserves a standing ovation

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## BijliKhala

Itthay rakh!!!!!!!!!


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

_Ve Ma Tevfiki Illa Billah..
La Kuvvete Illa Billah..
La Galibe Illallah...
_
What a weapon!! What a name!! What are the scientists and engineers!!! What an _Ordu_!! And, What are their commanders!!!

_Mubarek Olsun....
Hayirli Olsun...

_

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## Burhan Wani

HAKIKAT said:


> _Ve Ma Tevfiki Illa Billah..
> La Kuvvete Illa Billah..
> La Galibe Illallah...
> _
> What a weapon!! What a name!! What are the scientists and engineers!!! What an _Ordu_!! And, What are their commanders!!!
> 
> _Mubarek Olsun....
> Hayirli Olsun...
> _


Thankyou brother.
Consider it yours.

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## Hammad Arshad Qureshi

Congratulations to all Pakistani nation , scientist, enginers and Pakistan Army

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## Basel

django said:


> The missile is based on Shaheen III but has an enlarged cone section to accommodate multiple independent reentry vehicles (MIRV). This is meant to reduce the likelihood of interception by an anti-ballistic missile system.



Hope next development is wave rider intelligent HGVs.

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## Bossman

ghauri05 said:


> are u referring to indian monkey we caught?



No we did not catch the money, he came over voluntarily because our dal is better than their dal.

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## simplestguy

Asfandyar Bhittani said:


> Here you go
> View attachment 371515


Hahhahahah indian are so funny.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

@Ababeel


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

BHarwana said:


> If you want to target Pakistani missiles immediately after Launch then you need very fast interceptors because if you check the speed of shaheen 3 there is no interceptor in the world that can chase it down. No country posses such interceptors


Israeli/Russians must be having grandest parties. They'll come up with new specs, drawings etc., and sell the weapons!!! "They believe in conjectures not in the TRUTH". Do you want to bankrupt India??? Last time the USSR got financially dissolved due to this cat and mouse game!!!!



T-123456 said:


> Congratulations Pakistan.
> So,when do we get a few?


In this age of Uncle Trump, nothing is off the tweets or tables....

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## Riz

Windjammer said:


> * DOT HEAD HUNTER .!!!*


KANA DAJAAL...HAHAHAA


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## The Deterrent

Found the required warning:











http://msi.nga.mil/NGAPortal/msi/qu...alue1=Number_DESC&MSI_outputOptionValue2=-999

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## BHarwana

HAKIKAT said:


> Israeli/Russians must be having grandest parties. They'll come up with new specs, drawings etc., and sell the weapons!!! "They believe in conjectures not in the TRUTH". Do you want to bankrupt India??? Last time the USSR got financially dissolved due to this cat and mouse game!!!!


ISI is the best designer of dissolving someone in the finical game. You buy weapons up to a certain point and gain sudden advantage but you can never continue on the path. Pakistan planned long term to develop weapons India went for short term success now we have out raced them to catch us now it will take trillions not billions. Very difficult to establish R&D now it will take decades to come up with a solution.

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## Riz

Horus said:


> _Tauheed ki amaanat, seenoon main hai hamary
> 
> Aasaan nahee mitaana naam-o-nishaan hamara! _


Muhaaaaaach...u nailed it man I Wana kiss everyone im so excited today.. I cant sleep tonight.. Huhuhu

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The Sandman said:


> They're gonna come up with 2 theories
> 1) This test never happened ISPR made a fake propaganda video by joining old videos.
> 2) They will call it a repainted Chinese missile.


_Kardeshim!!_ Last Time Sultan Mehmut used to come and take away all the gold that the the Indian folks painstakingly hoarded!!! Now, you do some "fire works" and their reserves deplete to be the top defense importer!!!!

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## CriticalThinker02

Ajaxpaul said:


> I don't know how it has changed anything for India. India already has a neighbor who has all types of missile technology which technically can be used against us.
> 
> For that we are going for the ballastic missile shields.
> 
> But saying that it's good news for pakistan that they have mastered MIRV.



This technology and further improvements potentially means that only one missile will deliver an existential threat to the enemy.

And MIRV technology is almost impossible to stop, even if you somehow increase the funding of your BMD's ten folds.

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## volatile

Its reference is based in Quran a Majeed and one of my most recited Surah / The event involved in this shows how an aerial power take care of biggest Mammoth of all times .In my previous year i have always reserved this name for a fighter bomber any ways im happy this name is used .

Translation

*Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the Companions of the Elephant?*
*Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray?*
*And He sent against them Flights of Birds (Ababeel),*
*Striking them with stones of baked clay.*
*Then did He make them like an empty field of stalks and straw, (of which the corn) has been eaten up*.

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## Srinivas

foxtrot1 said:


> Because last time when Shaheens were test fired they were also MIRV capable. And now this. And I need to update your knowledge regarding warheads I guess. Only if @HRK doesn't give me a negative marking for posting technical data
> 
> As I said, a Missile can be fired with a warhead or without a warhead. As per the claims by ISPR, the missile is capable of carrying multiple warheads. Now the catch is what kind of warheads. 2,3 RV or 2,3 targetable RV?
> 
> Allowing 5 warheads in a single missile and dumping them over a specific area and they do a free fall is not a big deal for any country which knows how to build 1st generation rockets. It's like cluster warhead.
> 
> The whole of the fuzz is about if these warheads are targetable? Which is not possible to develop if the country does not independently test one of them. Because the warhead is itself a guided missile launched at terminal phase and has ability to glide and target. Pakistan as per today never tested any space capsule from where this technology can be derived. And most of the nations who already possess MIRV technology or space capsules technology still at times fail during tests. This deals with supercomputation in the role of telemetry and no country is allowed to provide such a high grade super computation device for guidance. As on today Pakistan may have developed the technology to miniaturise the warhead by 0.7 times but it lacks in guidance due to unviability of resources for supercomputation in guidance.



Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.

Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.

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## BHarwana

HAKIKAT said:


> _Kardeshim!!_ Last Time Sultan Mehmut used to come and take away all the gold that the the Indian folks painstakingly hoarded!!! Now, you do some "fire works" and their reserves deplete to be the top defense importer!!!!


LOL it war and excuses will not help them considering it as a propaganda will only earn them disadvantage in war. When the time comes if propaganda was a reality it will just bring destruction to India, Isn't that what we want.

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## Riz

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.


In which world you are living mate? No one can claim a 2200 km fake MIRV capable missile test launch in the presence of world top navies in Arabian Ossian. We tested and there will be a bundle of work required to induct in this platform, chill

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## Peaceful Civilian

Jonah Arthur said:


> Our enemy is ISIL.
> You can raise this point. That this missile has been designed to ruin nights of Khawarijies. Got my point?


This is fragile explanation and bound to reject, world is already doing bombing on ISIL. And you need ICBM for these rats. Lolzzz. Can't stop laugh. What you think about world. 
Be realistic

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## Talha Asif



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## jaydee

Basel said:


> Hope next development is wave rider intelligent HGVs.


I had exactly same thought.And i won't call it blasphemous since we got surprised twice in past 15 days.An HGV with MIRV,a nightmare for our Arch nemesis.

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## IceCold

/


The Deterrent said:


> Sadly we do not have the resources to target any other potential enemy besides India. I respect your emotions, however this is how its going to be.


Sir would i be correct in assuming that the question above is not about the resources but rather the will or should i say intent. Our elites specially those in position of power still consider US an ally. I sincerely hope that a message of a concerned Pakistani who does not wish to see his country ever again in a position similar to one after 9/11 where we were told either you are with us or against us, can be passed over to whom ever it may concern.

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## SQ8

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.


Hey
If it helps you sleep at night
Sure

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## CriticalThinker02

Jonah Arthur said:


> @Zarvan @Starlord @Tipu7
> 
> This is epic.
> View attachment 371485



so that's what Zarvan looks like


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## Srinivas

Oscar said:


> Hey
> If it helps you sleep at night
> Sure



What ever happens I will have nice sleep.
Because India has the capability to deal with China and Pakistan.


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## The Deterrent

IceCold said:


> /
> Sir would i be correct in assuming that the question above is not about the resources but rather the will or should i say intent. Our elites specially those in position of power still consider US an ally. I sincerely hope that a message of a concerned Pakistani who does not wish to see his country ever again in a position similar to one after 9/11 where we were told either you are with us or against us, can be passed over to whom ever it may concern.


1. Look, you have to realize that Pakistan is no match for US. We have never considered US as a foe, and probably won't for the forseeable future. There is no intent for that.
2. Even if we did, we can do absolutely nothing about it. We are decades away from developing the class of weapons which can hit that far. There are no resources for that. 
3. Even if Pakistan magically acquires something like that, do you have any idea what a single Ohio-class SSBN has the capability to do in return?

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## SQ8

Srinivas said:


> What ever happens I will have nice sleep.
> Because India has the capability to deal with China and Pakistan.


Sweet dreams 
Stop wasting our time if you are so confident and comfortable

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## Blue Marlin

id assume this is just to validate the mirv part of the missile works, id expect athe induction of a missile that can comfortably hold the mirv section that can do 3000km so it can fire from any point in pakistan to any point in india

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## CriticalThinker02

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Just a suggestion , someone changed the "Title of the thread in morning after it was confirmed it was a MIRV" after the thread was started perhaps that may be the reason why the forum is acting up on this particular thread, a wild guess. May be the change did not get updated in all systems correctly if the site suffered minor down time
> 
> 
> Worth a quick check if that may be indirectly effecting some of the issues on the site i.e clicking and page links



@Zaki I think you accidentally gave him a negative rating on that comment ?

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## Bratva

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.



How Babur 3 and Ababeel are at initial developmental stages when they are based on Operational and working designs ?

Just as The JASSM-ER is an advanced version with a range of 1000 KM of the AGM-158A cruise missile (370KM). The JASSM-ER has 70% hardware commonality and 95% software commonality with the original AGM-158 JASSM.

Pakistan hasnot built Babur 3 and Ababeel from the scratch.

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## Hyde

Waqas said:


> @Zaki I think you accidentally gave him a negative rating on that comment ?


that's true

I didn't even know I gave him negative rating... sorry mate

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## dexter

Pardon me for this immature post but it reminds me of this, somehow quite close to it.

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## YeBeWarned

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.



at least we test Systems before we brag about them, not like you guys, your fellow Countrymen has been shooting down our Fighters with Mystical S-400 which you did not even have , let alone integrate completely ...

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## Optimus_Prime

Mubarak to Pakistani nation. Inshalllah you are stronger than ever. As a norwegian-bengali i salute Pakistan. Now the next crucial step is to fullfill the huge economic potential of Pakistan. By Allahs will you become prosper. 

Hopefully my birth country also be strong enough to resist foreign interference and bullying. It will happen. India cant keep subjugating 170 million single-ethnic Bangladeshi muslims. 

So what you say? Pakistan "borrow" us nuke tech in 10 years ?? Come on yaar

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.





Not as tall as indian claims that Pakistan would NEVER EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That it was impossible for Pakistan to ever do so.............

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## Syed_Adeel

Zarvan said:


> Good Job but which Missile is this or have they changed name of the Missile ?


Its tip is change only because of Multiple warheads capability as mentioned that it can attack multiple targets. otherwise Pakistan has 2000KM Shaheen2 and 2750KM Shaheen 3 so there is no logic of another missile in the mid of both.


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## Cookie Monster

Frankenstein9321 said:


> Why cant we use these sort of missles for air defense?? We need to make a air defense shield to counter supersonic and subsonic missles??


MIRV capable missiles cannot be used for missile defense...well they can but it would be a waste. MIRV capability of the missile would play no part in it so might as well hit the incoming missile with a non MIRV missile...and that's essentially a BMD system.

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## GumNaam

My sincere advice to indians:

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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> Yaara, look at the time, it's past 4.00 PM in Pakistan, ISPR......Chuthi....still trying.


And i suppose you would just phone the helpline of SPD to get more "details" and they would give you a kind advice of making the call during office hours. Kids of today's age...

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## Optimus_Prime

Fenrir said:


> Another Børk!! Let me guess... Oslo?


Yup. You got that right!

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## Mo12

whats so special? I thought Pakistan has missiles which could go up to 8,000 km.


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## BHarwana

Cookie Monster said:


> MIRV capable missiles cannot be used for missile defense...well they can but it would be a waste. MIRV capability of the missile would play no part in it so might as well hit the incoming missile with a non MIRV missile...and that's essentially a BMD system.


You require a MIRV capable missile to stop a MIRV warhead as you require multiple interceptors to stop an incoming MIRV. And the interceptor carrier jacket of MIRV can be used for target detection sensors.



Mo12 said:


> whats so special? I thought Pakistan has missiles which could go up to 8,000 km.


Your interceptors just got outdated need to spend billions more for just detecting the missile war-head.

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## Optimus_Prime

Mo12 said:


> whats so special? I thought Pakistan has missiles which could go up to 8,000 km.



MIRVs are extremely difficult to intercept by common BMD.

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## Cookie Monster

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.


Could u plz show me which "tall claim" wasn't backed up by a test?

Pak claimed Babur 3 is an SLCM capable of carrying a conventional or nuclear warhead...and backed it up with a test

Pak claimed Ababeel is a MIRV capable missile...and backed that up with a test.

So show me a "tall claim" that ISPR made and didnt back it up.

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## PatrioticPaki

Long Live Pakistan

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## Mo12

Optimus_Prime said:


> MIRVs are extremely difficult to intercept by common BMD.


 why do some countries invest so heavily into BMD, when nations could just fire a MIRV then?


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## GumNaam

Mo12 said:


> whats so special? I thought Pakistan has missiles which could go up to 8,000 km.


what's so special is that now india has to worry about MIRVs. first, india had to worry about 1 missile coming at 1 city at the untrackable speed of mach 18 or more. now india has to worry about 1 missile coming at the untrackable speed of mach 18 while shooting at least 3 MIRVs at 3 indian cities at a speed greater than mach 18. 3 cities for the price of 1 missile while the s400s that india hasn't even received yet helplessly sits by and does nothing. frankly modi should fire doval as his every single strategy has royally backfired.

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## jaydee

Aaj to Eid hogayee.
I still have great taste in my mouth from this test.

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## Mo12

GumNaam said:


> what's so special is that now india has to worry about MIRVs. first, india had to worry about 1 missile coming at 1 city at the untrackable speed of mach 18 or more. now india has to worry about 1 missile coming at the untrackable speed of mach 18 while shooting at least 3 MIRVs at 3 indian cities at a speed greater than mach 18. 3 cities for the price of 1 missile while the s400s that india hasn't even received yet helplessly sits by and does nothing. frankly modi should fire doval as his every single strategy has royally backfired.



Can it be intercepted while it is still 1 rocket?


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## BHarwana

Mo12 said:


> why do some countries invest so heavily into BMD, when nations could just fire a MIRV then?


Pakistan just became the 5th country to posses the technology after USA Russia China and France so BMD is good for the rest of the world.

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## Syed_Adeel

Its looking more like SLV because of multiple warheads.


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## GumNaam

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.


yar koi is baycharay ko burnal do yar, bara takleef say tarap raha hay yeah bachoongra!


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## Mrc

Guys just enjoy the randi roona....
No need to get into technical discussions with randiyans

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## Syed_Adeel

countryman said:


> I think liquid propellant will be more cost effective than solid propellant, however, I think this test is more about testing the knowledge and technology. Knowledge gained through this can be applied for any program.



This missile is for sure for multiple warheads as its mentioned that it can hit multiple targets.
for SLV liquid one is better but thats not the problem. the only issue in having own SLV is cost effective because we launch very few satellites so making one for rare use is not feasible.


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## GumNaam

Mo12 said:


> Can it be intercepted while it is still 1 rocket?


Only within the first 5 seconds of the launch if you are lucky enough to fire a 100 s400s at just one missile and hope that 1 reaches the target. A long shot with very little chance of success.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Mo12 said:


> why do some countries invest so heavily into BMD, when nations could just fire a MIRV then?


How many coungtries have MIRVs begin with?

Only the *United States, United Kingdom, Russia,France*,and *China* *AND NOW PAKISTAN.*

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## Cookie Monster

BHarwana said:


> You require a MIRV capable missile to stop a MIRV warhead as you require multiple interceptors to stop an incoming MIRV. And the interceptor carrier jacket of MIRV can be used for target detection sensors.


MIRV stands for Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicles. The top of the missile contains multiple warheads in a housing that looks like one giant warhead. All these warheads go up as one unit and reenter separately, hence the name (Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicles). So tell me again how do u shoot a MIRV missile with a MIRV missile?

Instead the best way to counter a MIRV missile is intercepting it soon after its launched and is still one unit(aka the warheads are still together). This is usually done by sattelite detection of the missile launch and trajectory tracking.

The second way is radar detection of the multiple incoming warheads and then shooting a missile at each one individually. It's much harder to achieve 100% success rate in this case. The amount of time to detect, track and intercept all of these is very limited. Again MIRV missile is not used to defeat MIRV missile.

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## Optimus_Prime

GumNaam said:


> what's so special is that now india has to worry about MIRVs. first, india had to worry about 1 missile coming at 1 city at the untrackable speed of mach 18 or more. now india has to worry about 1 missile coming at the untrackable speed of mach 18 while shooting at least 3 MIRVs at 3 indian cities at a speed greater than mach 18. 3 cities for the price of 1 missile while the s400s that india hasn't even received yet helplessly sits by and does nothing. frankly modi should fire doval as his every single strategy has royally backfired.



Ajit Doval, Modi and RSS retards only know how to bark. Give it some time and these guys will pull India apart.

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## EnggineerShahjehan

Alhamdullilah, Congrates to all my brothers.

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## Syed_Adeel

Given the size of the missile tip how many Warhead it can carry ? i guess 3 - 4 or more if smaller warheads like NASR are used ? Correct me if i am wrong.


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## BHarwana

Cookie Monster said:


> Instead the best way to counter a MIRV missile is intercepting it soon after its launched


Cannot do that check the speed of shaheen3 interceptor cannot chase it down. it is too fast.


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## IceCold

The Deterrent said:


> 1. Look, you have to realize that Pakistan is no match for US. We have never considered US as a foe, and probably won't for the forseeable future. There is no intent for that.


Even if we dont consider it as a foe, US does and they have never been more clearer about their intent. Where does that leave us?


> 3. Even if Pakistan magically acquires something like that, do you have any idea what a single Ohio-class SSBN has the capability to do in return?


That SSBN will do what it intends to do irrespective of whether we have those magical weapons on not, point is to prevent it from doing so and the answer lies is in your very nick "deterrent". Pakistan can never win a war with US, agreed but the point is is to prevent one from happening in the first place. During Clintons tenure China wasnt as strong as it is now. At the time Taiwan crises brew and US being the Sharif sent its aircraft carrier to threaten China. China could not fight US conventionally at the time but the threat to respond with Nuclear if US intervened resulted in US backing away and Taiwan shying away from announcing its independence. Agreed we are not China but the threat of nuclear response will keep many at bay or at least make them think twice before they threaten to bomb someone back to stone age. We are a nuclear power, all what is missing is the means and hence my original point of why i think Pakistan needs ICBM capability.

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## BHarwana

Syed_Adeel said:


> Given the size of the missile tip how many Warhead it can carry ? i guess 3 - 4 or more if smaller warheads like NASR are used ? Correct me if i am wrong.


Cannot say for now but it looks larger than shaheen 3. less info about missile is available.


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## GumNaam

Cookie Monster said:


> MIRV stands for Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicles. The top of the missile contains multiple warheads in a housing that looks like one giant warhead. All these warheads go up as one unit and reenter separately, hence the name (Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicles). So tell me again how do u shoot a MIRV missile with a MIRV missile?
> 
> Instead the best way to counter a MIRV missile is intercepting it soon after its launched and is still one unit(aka the warheads are still together). This is usually done by sattelite detection of the missile launch and trajectory tracking.
> 
> The second way is radar detection of the multiple incoming warheads and then shooting a missile at each one individually. It's much harder to achieve 100% success rate in this case. The amount of time to detect, track and intercept all of these is very limited. Again MIRV missile is not used to defeat MIRV missile.


Further, satellite detection and interception is only effective when the missile, when one piece only follows one trajectory and doesn't keep changing.

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## Optimus_Prime

jaydee said:


> Aaj to Eid hogayee.
> I still have great taste in my mouth from this test.



Not as good as Qurbani Eid

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## Mrc

Cookie Monster said:


> Instead the best way to counter a MIRV missile is intercepting it soon after its launched and is still one unit(aka the warheads are still together). This is usually done by sattelite detection of the missile launch and trajectory tracking.




Satellites tracking missile leading to intercept??

Which end of body u guys think from??


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## GumNaam

Optimus_Prime said:


> Ajit Doval, Modi and RSS retards only know how to bark. Give it some time and these guys will pull India apart.


InshAllah


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## Srinivas

GumNaam said:


> yar koi is baycharay ko burnal do yar, bara takleef say tarap raha hay yeah bachoongra!



You are talking to an Indian a country which has ICBM and ABM technologies.

I have no intention to gate crash your party. Enjoy what ISPR said.


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## jaydee

Optimus_Prime said:


> Not as good as Qurbani Eid


We did slaughter Cold start today.

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## Cookie Monster

Mo12 said:


> why do some countries invest so heavily into BMD, when nations could just fire a MIRV then?


The effectiveness of MIRV doesn't mean BMDs are trash. BMDs are still very helpful in defending the airspace against non MIRV missiles, jets, etc. They can even intercept MIRV missiles, it's just a lot harder since the warheads reenter at great speeds and there's quite a few of them so it takes a toll on the effectiveness of BMDs.

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## GumNaam

Mrc said:


> Satellites tracking missile leading to intercept??
> 
> Which end of body u guys think from??


Its an old starwars concept that the reagan administration started but then abandoned since it was not feasible and was ineffective against soviet missiles that kept changing trajectories. Oh and it couldn't detect real nuclear missiles from dummy ones. Pull your head out of the hole in the ground, it's an age old concept that was proven largely ineffective. But as a last ditch effort, it maybe worth it.


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## Mo12

How will China and USA defend against its other MIRV, in case both go to war over the south china sea?


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Guys...S-400 is still a threat for our Air force...

We need to counter S-400 as well...

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## GumNaam

Srinivas said:


> You are talking to an Indian a country which has ICBM and ABM technologies.



on paper! 

btw, I'm not "talking" to an indian, I'm laughing at one!

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## Mrc

GumNaam said:


> Its an old starwars concept that the reagan administration started but then abandoned since it was not feasible and was ineffective against soviet missiles that kept changing trajectories. Oh and it couldn't detect real nuclear missiles from dummy ones. Pull your head out of the hole in the ground, it's an age old concept that was proven largely ineffective. But as a last ditch effort, it maybe worth it.




Keep your head in the hole its in.... americans abandoned it ?and now you want to build it... excellent


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## RealisticPAK

Sulman Badshah said:


> Wow .. Nice and Congratulations for new type of Missile and back to back successful test


Two good news in January 2017. First SLCM and now this MIRV. Excellent job and AlhamdoLilAah. Soon Indians will start a denial campaign just like they did after our SLCM test.

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## Cookie Monster

Mrc said:


> Satellites tracking missile leading to intercept??
> 
> Which end of body u guys think from??


What's ur question here? Satellites can track a missile launch and it's trajectory and transmit that information to interceptors on the ground.


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## GumNaam

Mrc said:


> Keep your head in the hole its in.... americans abandoned it ?and now you want to build it... excellent



I never said we were gonna build a satellite tracking and intercept system, where did you read that genius? Clear sign on panic, your not even reading correctly. 

Do panadol ki goliyaan kha kay, burnol laga kay so jao, shabbaaaaaash. subha ko tumhay hum aur bhi mirchiyaan lagayain gey!


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## Mrc

Cookie Monster said:


> What's ur question here? Satellites can track a missile launch and it's trajectory and transmit that information to interceptors on the ground.




U retard... thats too in accurate for intercept... u have to travk missile on a fcking radar... u fcking expert... get lost now...



GumNaam said:


> I never said we were gonna build a satellite tracking and intercept system, where did you read that genius? Clear sign on panic, your not even reading correctly.
> 
> Do panadol ki goliyaan kha kay, burnol laga kay so jao, shabbaaaaaash.




Apply butnol


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## GumNaam

Abay yaar baycharay @Mrc say type bhi nahi kia jaraha.


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## Hallian_Khan

just one word for indians..."OOPSSS...."

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## RealisticPAK

Two good news in January 2017. First SLCM and now this MIRV. Excellent job and AlhamdoLilAah. Soon Indians will start a denial campaign

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## Mrc

GumNaam said:


> Abay yaar baycharay @Mrc say type bhi nahi kia jaraha.



U need burnol v 2...

BUTNOL

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## Cookie Monster

Mrc said:


> U retard... thats too in accurate for intercept... u have to travk missile on a fcking radar... u fcking expert... get lost now...


This was back in 2011. Must have progressed far beyond the tests described in this article.
http://www.popsci.com/technology/ar...k-ballistic-missile-through-all-phases-flight

Not only are u stupid u also lack the manners to carry out a conversation.

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## Safriz

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> maa sadkay, itna shah dil mazzal?


Mate, if u don't have anything interesting to say just shut it. 
Stop sacrificing everyone's mother

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## somebozo

BHarwana said:


> ISI is the best designer of dissolving someone in the finical game. You buy weapons up to a certain point and gain sudden advantage but you can never continue on the path. Pakistan planned long term to develop weapons India went for short term success now we have out raced them to catch us now it will take trillions not billions. Very difficult to establish R&D now it will take decades to come up with a solution.



Pakistan has a lot of home grown motivation of R/D..people will work day and night without for passion without pay..this is totally opposite of Indian engineering babus who are in for the money but very little productivity..

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## Mrc

Cookie Monster said:


> This was back in 2011. Must have progressed far beyond the tests described in this article.
> http://www.popsci.com/technology/ar...k-ballistic-missile-through-all-phases-flight
> 
> Not only are u stupid u also lack the manners to carry out a conversation.




U idiots have no idea what u are talking about... yes it did track it... so what ... u think it can guide an interceptor to target??


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## somebozo

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.



Agni, Brahmos, Pirtivi are as mature as V2?


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## Dazzler

coverage in international media, and Mr. b is impressed.

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## Cookie Monster

Mrc said:


> U idiots have no idea what u are talking about... yes it did track it... so what ... u think it can guide an interceptor to target??


Did u not read the last paragraph of the article? This is exactly what US is intending to do with such a system. This is a space based missile defence system using satellites for launch detection and trajectory tracking and relaying data to interceptors on the Aegis ships. No amount of calling others retards/idiots will make u right.

Read the whole damn article before u have another verbal diarrhea.


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## RealisticPAK

countryman said:


> I think liquid propellant will be more cost effective than solid propellant, however, I think this test is more about testing the knowledge and technology. Knowledge gained through this can be applied for any program.


This is the first step towards ICBM, we have sent the message, no need to unnerve the West by going ahead with TIPU. We should keep ICBM in our back pocket, show it to the world if required.


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## Safriz

Mrc said:


> Guys just enjoy the randi roona....
> No need to get into technical discussions with randiyans


You should check Indian twitter and Indian forums. It's کہرام over there

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## RealisticPAK

Bashido said:


> What is SSM? Surface-surface missile?


Yes.
SLCM= Submarine Launched Cruise Missile
SSM= Surface to Surface Missile
MIRV= Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle


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## WaLeEdK2

Dazzler said:


> coverage in international media, and Mr. b is impressed.



Did he just say it was 2200kg not km?

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## RealisticPAK

شاھین میزایل said:


> You should check Indian twitter and Indian forums. It's کہرام over there


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha



WaLeEdK2 said:


> Did he just say it was 2200kg not km?


He just said it wrong, that's all. I think he was too excited and made this mistake.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

شاھین میزایل said:


> Mate, if u don't have anything interesting to say just shut it.
> Stop sacrificing everyone's mother


try to shut it loser!


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## Windjammer

SBD-3 said:


> And i suppose you would just phone the helpline of SPD to get more "details" and they would give you a kind advice of making the call during office hours. Kids of today's age...


Yes, kids today just assume all....sitting on the net they seem to read others minds.

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## GumNaam

Cookie Monster said:


> This was back in 2011. Must have progressed far beyond the tests described in this article.
> http://www.popsci.com/technology/ar...k-ballistic-missile-through-all-phases-flight
> 
> Not only are u stupid u also lack the manners to carry out a conversation.


Have mercy on @Mrc yar, baycharay ki burnal supply mukh gayi hay.

Oh and by the way, satellite tracking is only helpful over great distances like between Russia and America. It's worthless for two countries right next to each other as the window of time for detection, tracking and intercept is greatly reduced.



شاھین میزایل said:


> You should check Indian twitter and Indian forums. It's کہرام over there


Please share some screen shots.

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## Akasa

Undoubtedly a significant development for Pakistan's strategic forces and possibly a catalyst for doctrinal changes within India's own nuclear strategy & politics.

However, it's important to keep in mind that the ability to carry MIRVs is a *two-pronged* goal; it requires that *(1) the missile is capable of achieving sufficient throw-weight*, and *(2) the miniaturization of Pakistan's warheads* is of sufficient sophistication to fully take advantage of point #1.

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## Armstrong

Why can't we ever name a missile after me? Whats wrong with SSM Armstrong?

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## RealisticPAK

Bashido said:


> What is purpose of these missiles with such a range because we already have Ballistic missile. Please ignore my limited knowledge.


Bashido, Ababeel is a MIRV, which means one missile can rattle several cities. It can carry several bombs in it's tip. Enters into space, comes back into earth's atmosphere and can send havoc in several cities.

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## Cookie Monster

GumNaam said:


> Have mercy on @Mrc yar, baycharay ki burnal supply mukh gayi hay.
> 
> Oh and by the way, satellite tracking is only helpful over great distances like between Russia and America. It's worthless for two countries right next to each other as the window of time for detection, tracking and intercept is greatly reduced.
> 
> 
> Please share some screen shots.


No mercy, I like to put idiots in their place.

Yeah I know that it's useful more so over long distances. I was talking more in terms of increasing effectiveness for the interception of a MIRV missile. This is so far the most effective way since it can detect it at launch and therefore gives the maximum amount of time for interception even if countries are next to each other.

I can't wait for his next reply. Patiently waiting to see how he digs himself out of this hole.

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## Samurai_assassin

Areesh said:


> Its a fake test. Look at the color of the missile. It changes from white to black to violet to indigo to orange.


Must be a carrot famine in India with their poor eye sight and colour blindness.

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## Cookie Monster

Armstrong said:


> Why can't we ever name a missile after me? Whats wrong with SSM Armstrong?


Dude naming it Ababeel was a stroke of genius. Anyone who is familiar with the story would see why a MIRV missile was named that. The person who came up with it is very creative.

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## messiach

Work began on MIRV in 1997 - twenty years. 
This is landmark.




Side-Winder said:


> Pak successfully conducted first flight test of SSM #ABABEEL, Rg 2200 Km. #COAS congrats team and Pak Armed Forces for landmk achievement.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176
> *The missile is MIRV capable *- LONG LIVE PAKISTAN

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## GumNaam

Cookie Monster said:


> No mercy, I like to put idiots in their place.
> 
> Yeah I know that it's useful more so over long distances. I was talking more in terms of increasing effectiveness for the interception of a MIRV missile. This is so far the most effective way since it can detect it at launch and therefore gives the maximum amount of time for interception even if countries are next to each other.
> 
> I can't wait for his next reply. Patiently waiting to see how he digs himself out of this hole.



Also let's not forget the Chinese gift of anti satellite missiles! 

Oops, there goes all the indian hopes down the tube!

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Cookie Monster said:


> Dude naming it Ababeel was a stroke of genius. Anyone who is familiar with the story would see why a MIRV missile was named that. The person who came up with it is very creative.


_Kardeshim_!! This is the _Sura_ all kids memorize for compulsory prayers. This true event is engrained in every Muslim's mind. Pak has just taken_Yakin_ to the next level!!!!

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

GumNaam said:


> Also let's not forget the Chinese gift of anti satellite missiles!


we has them?

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## Areesh

Armstrong said:


> Why can't we ever name a missile after me? Whats wrong with SSM Armstrong?



Too much gora naam.

We can call it SSM Butt but then it is a butt kicker and not butt itself

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## ZAC1

Excellent news...Great Timing of launch in current world politics....trump busy in internal matters bad ma bht pressure ana ta...good sab kuch abi duniya ko bata do....

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

GumNaam said:


> Only within the first 5 seconds of the launch if you are lucky enough to fire a 100 s400s at just one missile and hope that 1 reaches the target. A long shot with very little chance of success.


The Indian folks don't buy anything from the US retail stores unless assured of return policy by 100%!!! I think you have put the probability way below the threshold!!!!!

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## GumNaam

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> we has them?



Shhhhh, is a secret.

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## Falgrine

I wonder if the test firing was deliberately planned for now i.e after the Trump would have sworn in . And if so, the purpose could be to test the reaction of the newly elected US president / his team.

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## Abdullah S.

HAKIKAT said:


> _Ve Ma Tevfiki Illa Billah..
> La Kuvvete Illa Billah..
> La Galibe Illallah...
> _
> What a weapon!! What a name!! What are the scientists and engineers!!! What an _Ordu_!! And, What are their commanders!!!
> 
> _Mubarek Olsun....
> Hayirli Olsun...
> _


Brother I wait for your comments on threads like these. Mashallah. You have a way with words.

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## RealisticPAK

Bashido said:


> I am not against any research. I am trying to understand SSM. does it mean Surface to space here.?


No, it means Surface to Surace Missle


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## mrrehan

Side-Winder said:


> Pak successfully conducted first flight test of SSM #ABABEEL, Rg 2200 Km. #COAS congrats team and Pak Armed Forces for landmk achievement.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176
> *The missile is MIRV capable *- LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
> 
> View attachment 371448
> View attachment 371449




Demonstration of really a complex technology that is very very good. Allah bless Pakistan.

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## Kamran Abbasi

Mehndi hai rajne wali
india ke hai phatne wali xD

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

BHarwana said:


> You require a MIRV capable missile to stop a MIRV warhead as you require multiple interceptors to stop an incoming MIRV. And the interceptor carrier jacket of MIRV can be used for target detection sensors.
> 
> 
> Your interceptors just got outdated need to spend billions more for just detecting the missile war-head.


Remind me of the "Star Wars" mania during the Reagan years. Every Tom and Jerry in all engineering/science faculties made some bucks out of it!!!



GumNaam said:


> what's so special is that now india has to worry about MIRVs. first, india had to worry about 1 missile coming at 1 city at the untrackable speed of mach 18 or more. now india has to worry about 1 missile coming at the untrackable speed of mach 18 while shooting at least 3 MIRVs at 3 indian cities at a speed greater than mach 18. 3 cities for the price of 1 missile while the s400s that india hasn't even received yet helplessly sits by and does nothing. frankly modi should fire doval as his every single strategy has royally backfired.


Doval is like Devil!! Strong against weak minds, and flee the scene when the brave folks arrive!!!!



Abdullah S. said:


> Brother I wait for your comments on threads like these. Mashallah. You have a way with words.


 _Kardeshim_!! This is a very common conservative Turkish way of expression. Nothing special at all!!

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

GumNaam said:


> Shhhhh, is a secret.


phuphoo, u ve spilled the secret now . link shink provido pls.

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## Syed_Adeel

BHarwana said:


> Cannot say for now but it looks larger than shaheen 3. less info about missile is available.


Only the third stage is extra but the first two stages are same as Shaheen 3 as i guess so IMO its range is ~3000KM and has atleast 3 - 4 warheads.


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## Safriz



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## HttpError

thesolar65 said:


> Which Chinese missile is this? I mean what is the original Chinese name?



They call it "Baniya ko Lagi Mirchayein"

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## Safriz

Going by visual similarities as Indians always do, their Agni-1 , 2 and 4 are Chinese copies too. This is a picture of DF-15 or 21 (can't remember). Warhead has striking similarities with Agni

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## YeBeWarned

Dazzler said:


> coverage in international media, and Mr. b is impressed.



Oh Boy , we are in End times ? i guess the man is right , Modi and than Trump takes power , this is indeed end times


----------



## Peshwa

شاھین میزایل said:


> Going by visual similarities as Indians always do, their Agni-1 , 2 and 4 are Chinese copies too. This is a picture of DF-15 or 21 (can't remember). Warhead has striking similarities with Agni
> 
> View attachment 371639



This isn't a problem for us as it is for you!
Your allies are selling us missiles...not the other way around.
Seems the Chinese have mastered the Kansas City shuffle!


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

xyxmt said:


> They are all there in Missile chest, waiting for opportune time for announcement.
> Pakistan's missile policy is "need to show Basis"


Pak missile folks look like Apple - every year they obsessive compulsively need to come up with some "bombastic" launching ceremonies!!! Who is Samsung???!!??

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## AUz

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.



Uhh, no. These weapons have been in "development" for years now. Their systems and sub systems have been tested again and again, trailed and what not. So these systems are very mature since they aren't build from scratch. They are built upon exiting indigenous technologies Pakistan has.

Just like Agni 5 was built upon a base, and hence a very mature system even though just tested couple of times.

For example, Babur SLCM was tested MULTIPLE times before the first "public" test reveal of the system. 

Nevertheless, Pakistan has take a giant leap in its existing missile capabilities with SLCM and now MIRVed missile system.

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## Bashido

RealisticPAK said:


> No, it means Surface to Surace Missle





RealisticPAK said:


> Yes.
> SLCM= Submarine Launched Cruise Missile
> SSM= Surface to Surface Missile
> MIRV= Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle


I know it actually when thread was started this morning, they just mentioned SSM. That is why i get confused. The title is changed letter


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## Cookie Monster

GumNaam said:


> Also let's not forget the Chinese gift of anti satellite missiles!
> 
> Oops, there goes all the indian hopes down the tube!


Ssshhh don't spoil the game my friend. Just like how India invested in BMD systems only for Pakistan to make MIRV capable ones, let them first spend billions on this satellite based BMD. Then Pak can barge in with a satellite missile and troll them some more. I love this never ending trolling game.

Also @Mrc is being extraordinarily silent on this thread now. I was expecting a non sense rebuttal that he would post quickly without thinking.

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## BHarwana

Syed_Adeel said:


> Only the third stage is extra but the first two stages are same as Shaheen 3 as i guess so IMO its range is ~3000KM and has atleast 3 - 4 warheads.


These all are assessments but first two stages are confirmed shaheen 2 or 3 but the range is less even with extra third stage that means more war-heads or large warheads.


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## Tiger Awan

Zaki said:


> No success in finding news report from Indian news channels so far
> 
> Would love to know if it was colour change, chinese copy, fake video, diesel engine blah blah



yeah, nothing at all. Meanwhile they "Satellite Imagery Expert" of India


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823910908049162240












The Deterrent said:


> Even if Pakistan magically acquires something like that, do you have any idea what a single Ohio-class SSBN has the capability to do in return?



Most important point sir, we know where to take "Panga"

Also we are very efficient with our spending and surely this cold war fever India has is going to put a big strain on their economy

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kamran Abbasi said:


> Mehndi hai rajne wali
> india ke hai phatne wali xD

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## Areesh

Tiger Awan said:


> yeah, nothing at all. Meanwhile they "Satellite Imagery Expert" of India
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823910908049162240



LMAO yeh phir aa gaya??

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## Tiger Awan

Areesh said:


> LMAO yeh phir aa gaya??
> 
> View attachment 371641



Him saying "MIRV <3" is so funny, what he is suggesting is that Ababeel will carry only 2 MIRV

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## GumNaam

thesolar65 said:


> Which Chinese missile is this? I mean what is the original Chinese name?



Yeah the Chinese call it "YU DUM FUK"!

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## Cookie Monster

Areesh said:


> LMAO yeh phir aa gaya??
> 
> View attachment 371641

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## Areesh

Tiger Awan said:


> Him saying "MIRV <3" is so funny, what he is suggesting is that Ababeel will carry only 2 MIRV



Bohat mutmain beghairat banda hai bhai yeh. 



Cookie Monster said:


>



https://defence.pk/threads/this-is-the-expert-times-now-called-to-expose-paks-slcm-test.471901/

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## Cookie Monster

thesolar65 said:


> Which Chinese missile is this? I mean what is the original Chinese name?


US introduced sanctions against Pakistani missile development entities and not Chinese ones. If this was a Chinese missile then sanctions would be put on China and it's missile development entities not to mention the immense backlash from the international community.

I still don't understand why Indians remain convinced that Pak can't develop anything on its own...and then u say we r the ones that believe in the superior race thing. It's rather u guys who adhere to a point of view akin to Social Darwinism. I would tell u to quit being delusional but due to constant brain washing and mass propaganda against Pakistan by ur media I don't think it's possible for u guys to see reality.

P.S. Even if ur wishes were true and the missile was Chinese...it wouldnt make it any less effective

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## GumNaam

@Mrc, @Srinivas and the likes are suffering severe cramps from a very serious case of PMS right now (Pakistani Missile Syndrome)!

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## nightingale

Well done Pakistan . So happy to read the news n congratulations to Pakistanis . It was the right time to hit the nail

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## AUz

Syed_Adeel said:


> Only the third stage is extra but the first two stages are same as Shaheen 3 as i guess so IMO its range is ~3000KM and has atleast 3 - 4 warheads.



With increases weight, thanks to MIRVs, the range would go down. So 2200km sounds credible 

2200km covers every single major indian city, industrial center, and economic hub. So range is not even an issue

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## Bratva

@Srinivas on another forum trying very hard to proof this SSM is MRV instead of MIRV 




Areesh said:


> LMAO yeh phir aa gaya??
> 
> View attachment 371641



BC is ko chen nahi hai ?

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## Nefarious

Pakistan shocks the world again, another one no one saw coming. Enemy's burying their heads in the sand because they don't want to believe what just happened. 

Whichever way you look at it, it's damn impressive. I wouldn't put anything out of Pakistan's reach from now on.

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## Mughal-Prince

Windjammer said:


> Bhains key saath katta bi..



Not katta bhai jan its Kattay and how many  not disclosed

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## NOWorNEVER

Oh my God Another sleepless night for our beloved neighbour. 
Please yar respect our neighbour's right and let them sleep... 
Many congratulations !!!!!

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## GumNaam

I kid you guys not, but all the indians at work look so freaking depressed right now  normally they are all cheerful and bobbleheaded but today there faces are all hanging down to their feet, I even saw one indian whisper as he was reading the news on google whisper to himself "ARAY MARGAYE"!

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## PaklovesTurkiye

GumNaam said:


> @Mrc, @Srinivas and the likes are suffering severe cramps from a very serious case of PMS right now (Pakistani Missile Syndrome)!



C'mon...Now stop it please...Hogaya ab? 

Don't act like Children...Mods will get angry...@Mrc

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## Tiger Awan

Bratva said:


> @Srinivas on another forum trying very hard to proof this SSM is MRV instead of MIRV
> 
> BC is ko chen nahi hai ?



You need to check his TL, everyday posting satellite pics of some Pakistani or Chinese base. Cant be one person or maybe he is jobless or maybe this is his job


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## abdulbarijan

A good video on MIRV missiles ... along with a test video of the multiple warheads hitting their respective targets ..

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## Mughal-Prince

Bratva said:


> @Srinivas on another forum trying very hard to proof this SSM is MRV instead of MIRV
> BC is ko chen nahi hai ?



@Bratva Bhai es B#0$5! W@(^ (@Srinivas) ko bolain kay main baqalam khud es ki tasdeeq kerta hoon kay yeh MIRV hai ab upna munh kahin aur ja ker kala keray. Yeh Confirm MIRV hai we never bluff in these matters.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Mughal-Prince said:


> @Bratva Bhai es B#0$5! W@(^ (@Srinivas) ko bolain kay main baqalam khud es ki tasdeeq kerta hoon kay yeh MIRV hai ab upna munh kahin aur ja ker kala keray. Yeh Confirm MIRV hai we never bluff in these matters.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Kamran Abbasi said:


> Mehndi hai rajne wali
> india ke hai phatne wali xD



That was gold. Aalaa..Cracked me up. 

@The Sandman @Doordie @tps77 @Zibago



Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> View attachment 371656



Iskey munh me kela de dena chayie....

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> That was gold. Aalaa..Cracked me up.
> 
> @The Sandman @Doordie @tps77 @Zibago
> 
> 
> 
> Iskey munh me kela de dena chayie....


kela to bohat leta hai shok sai lunch me.

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## The Eagle

HAKIKAT said:


> Doval is like Devil!! Strong against weak minds, and flee the scene when the brave folks arrive!!!!



He is not off the radar for us however, he is busy managing Kenyan Indian training camps readying mercenaries.

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## Mughal-Prince

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Iskey munh me kela de dena chayie....



Woh jo specioul kelaw hai wohi na Master ji wala

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## GumNaam

Bratva said:


> @Srinivas on another forum trying very hard to proof this SSM is MRV instead of MIRV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BC is ko chen nahi hai ?



Sorry in advance for my stupid question but what's the difference between MRVs and MIRVs?


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## Bratva

Kinetic said:


> lol You never had an unsuccessful test.
> 
> This is China's reply to India. Never heard of this missile before. MIRV takes decades of mastery in RV and missile technologies. India is still developing though we have decades of launch experiences with satellites. Now your missile suddenly comes out of a hanger. lol



Ladies and Gentelman here comes one of the people from 90 percent idiot group of India. Do you know Ababeel is based on the mature tech of Shaheen 2 & 3 ? The Missile stages and guidance systems. Pakistan has been trying to make an MIRV since 2007-8. If you havent heard the rumors, press reports since last 10 years and come here and audaciously claim chinese connection, Then definitely we will label you a retard without wits common sense and IQ < 20

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## graphican

*@All Members, *

There was an anti-tank missile tested by Pakistan which was called "Hijara". I am trying to find its reference as like Abbabeel, that name was also taken from the same sura. 

*Anybody has exact name of that anti-tank missile and specs handy?*


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## cabatli_53

OMG ! This missile called Ababeel is roaaaaarrrring like a blood-thirsty lion during take-off which is getting goose bump. I bet The pupils of enemy eyes expand with a big confusion, fear, worry while their minds are blowing with many (???-error-!!!) codes. First Babur family, later Ababeel family ! I think That is more than enough to spread a deep fear inside the veins of bad and hostile minds.

MaşAllah brothers ! Your achievements in missile sector make us really proud ! 2200km in brochure but Allah knows the real range of those roaring beasts !

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## Bratva

GumNaam said:


> Sorry in advance for my stupid question but what's the difference between MRVs and MIRVs?



MRV = All warheads are only dumped on the same target or at same destination

MIRV = Warheads are pre programmed to attack different targets at same location or difference locations

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## GumNaam

Kinetic said:


> lol You never had an unsuccessful test.
> 
> This is China's reply to India. Never heard of this missile before. MIRV takes decades of mastery in RV and missile technologies. India is still developing though we have decades of launch experiences with satellites. Now your missile suddenly comes out of a hanger. lol



launching satellites using Russian made SLVs assembled in india does not count as "experience"! And to add insult to india's injuries, here is one more for ya: Pakistan has had this technology and MIRV long range missiles for a while now, just like sub launched cruise missiles. We are just declaring them now. Don't forget that it's our military tradition to keep our secrets under wraps and declare them only when someone needs to be given the shut the F up call! For example, we've been a nuclear weapons state since 1984, we only declared it in 1998...because india needed the shut the F up call!

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## The Deterrent

Kinetic said:


> lol You never had an unsuccessful test.
> 
> This is China's reply to India. Never heard of this missile before. MIRV takes decades of mastery in RV and missile technologies. India is still developing though we have decades of launch experiences with satellites. Now your missile suddenly comes out of a hanger. lol


_Aooo ji Bismillah, baray baray log ayen hain.  
_
1. Yes we do have unsuccessful tests. We just don't admit it. 
2. How is China even remotely involved? Can you support your argument in any way?
3. Never heard of it? Meh, probably because NESCOM is not quite the chest-thumping organization. 
4. Oooooh decades of 'mastery'. Can you please explain how to all of us minions?
5. Multiple satellites and MIRVs are both different sides of the same coin, but independent of each other. While satellites require insertions in their orbits, MIRVs require insertions in their sub-orbital trajectories. In fact if unitary RVs have been developed before by a nation, developing MIRVs is easier for that nation than multiple sat capability.

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## Bratva

graphican said:


> *@All Members, *
> 
> There was an anti-tank missile tested by Pakistan which was called "Hijara". I am trying to find its reference as like Abbabeel, that name was also taken from the same sura.
> 
> *Anybody has exact name of that anti-tank missile and specs handy?*



That was not an Anti tank missile but rather Runway penetration bomb


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## farhan_9909

Kinetic said:


> lol You never had an unsuccessful test.
> 
> This is China's reply to India. Never heard of this missile before. MIRV takes decades of mastery in RV and missile technologies. India is still developing though we have decades of launch experiences with satellites. Now your missile suddenly comes out of a hanger. lol



From 2010 but i remember having heard about this around 2005 on pakdef

https://defence.pk/threads/mirv-technology-within-pakistani-grasp-now.82792/


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## Bashido

messiach said:


> Work began on MIRV in 1997 - twenty years.
> This is landmark.


What if i told you that it is started in 2007.

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## AUz

Mo12 said:


> why do some countries invest so heavily into BMD, when nations could just fire a MIRV then?



Israel has Iran to defend against. Hence BMD.

In case of US, their BMD is useless against Russia but can defend against North Korea/Iran etc AND US is building BMDs that can score direct hit on target approximately 1000km into space!!!

So it all make sense for countries to build BMDs. india hopes to counter Pakistani missiles with its own BMD but existing indian systems are pretty useless against latest Pakistani missiles like Shaheen III and especially Ababeel 1 with MIRVed warheads.

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## MilSpec

Kinetic said:


> lol You never had an unsuccessful test.
> 
> This is China's reply to India. Never heard of this missile before. MIRV takes decades of mastery in RV and missile technologies. India is still developing though we have decades of launch experiences with satellites. Now your missile suddenly comes out of a hanger. lol


how is any of that relevant, whether it's developed, imported or whatever it's genesis is, We just have to deal with prospects of a nuclear MIRV capable missile being fielded against India.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

graphican said:


> *@All Members, *
> 
> There was an anti-tank missile tested by Pakistan which was called "Hijara". I am trying to find its reference as like Abbabeel, that name was also taken from the same sura.
> 
> *Anybody has exact name of that anti-tank missile and specs handy?*


it was/is an anti armour cluster bomb.. guidance kits.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bratva said:


> That was not an Anti tank missile but rather Runway penetration bomb


You are talking about HAFR series..







Hes talkin about *HIJARA* - air-delivered anti-tank cluster bomb unit, also known as TSD-1 (Top Attack Sub-munitions Dispenser). Contains 247 anti-tank bomblets with shaped charge warheads

@graphican






Produced by Integrated Defence Solutions/IDS Pak.

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## Dil Pakistan

The Deterrent said:


> _Aooo ji Bismillah, baray baray log ayen hain.
> _
> 1. Yes we do have unsuccessful tests. We just don't admit it.
> 2. How is China even remotely involved? Can you support your argument in any way?
> 3. Never heard of it? Meh, probably because NESCOM is not quite the chest-thumping organization.
> 4. Oooooh *decades of 'mastery'.* Can you please explain how to all of us minions?
> 5. Multiple satellites and MIRVs are both different sides of the same coin, but independent of each other. While satellites require insertions in their orbits, MIRVs require insertions in their sub-orbital trajectories. In fact if unitary RVs have been developed before by a nation, developing MIRVs is easier for that nation than multiple sat capability.



I agree *on this one* with Indians - whole heartedly. In fact, _the decades_ are pasted on every programme they have started:

Tejas
Kaveri
Air Craft Carrier
etc.

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## Taimoor Khan

Ababeels were send to destroy those who were on their way to destroy the holly kabba.

With recent American intentions to move their embassy to Jerusalem, this will give Israel the license to go ahead with their plans to demolish holly Al Aqsa mosque to build the temple of Solomon for the arrival of their promised "messiah".

This Ababeel can be used to protect the holly site in Jerusalem. Timing is indeed very telling.

Would be interesting to see as to how this new missile system will nullify Israel Arrow system, with its MIRVs.

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## GumNaam

so the butthurt indians can differ with us all they want about the origins of the missile but one thing both them and us will always agree on is that regardless of what the origin of our missiles are, their destination will always be the indian dhottis!

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## The Eagle

Kinetic said:


> lol You never had an unsuccessful test.
> 
> This is China's reply to India. Never heard of this missile before. MIRV takes decades of mastery in RV and missile technologies. India is still developing though we have decades of launch experiences with satellites. Now your missile suddenly comes out of a hanger. lol



I was hopeful that whosoever will visit the thread here, would go through the pages and would read all productive posts for the mere appreciation of hard work done by posters.... Thanks wasn't needed at all but would have been enough to understand before repeating the same question asked by many.

China doesn't need Pakistan to reply India.

You never heard or never read about, indeed not our problem but burden lies upon you to search and read. India is still developing, is also not our problem and you have to address the issue that what's stopping India to achieve as such and resolution of tech language conversion from satellite to MIRV tech. Also, India is not standard for us for certification of our tech nor has any value to compare with. 

That post contains nothing but a mere attempt to say at least anything that may satisfy the obsession, No.... 

Now the real thing is, don't mind, Pakistan has MIRV capability that verified many Indian heads back to strategic drawing board to counter this or come up with something more striking capability but for the moment, we took the game to next level. By the obvious logic, it's your turn to be more offensive and as usual, we will bring solution and new capability for such possible threat or India can stop it here and we are even in this subject.

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## Cookie Monster

Bratva said:


> @Srinivas on another forum trying very hard to proof this SSM is MRV instead of MIRV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BC is ko chen nahi hai ?


Lol let him...I don't understand how that would make it any better for Indians. If we take his stupidity at face value then...
even if it is MRV it would still decrease the effectiveness of Indian BMDs...and Pak can still improve on its MRV capability to take it to the next level of MIRV. 

At best it's just butthurt delayed. It's better to accept it now then save it for later.

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## khalid_ khan

Pakistan Zindabad

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## Shotgunner51

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> @cabatli_53 @Shotgunner51 @Chinese-Dragon @ghazi768




Thanks for tagging my friend. Only two weeks after Babur SLCM and now another huge breakthrough on MIRV, it's breaking news in China. Such technological might is amazing, congrats to all our iron brothers!

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## GumNaam

The Eagle said:


> I was hopeful that whosoever will visit the thread here, would go through the pages and would read all productive posts for the mere appreciation of hard work done by posters.... Thanks wasn't needed at all but would have been enough to understand before repeating the same question asked by many.
> 
> China doesn't need Pakistan to reply India.
> 
> You never heard or never read about, indeed not our problem but burden lies upon you to search and read. India is still developing, is also not our problem and you have to address the issue that what's stopping India to achieve as such and resolution of tech language conversion from satellite to MIRV tech. Also, India is not standard for us for certification of our tech nor has any value to compare with.
> 
> That post contains nothing but a mere attempt to say at least anything that may satisfy the obsession, No....
> 
> Now the real thing is, don't mind, Pakistan has MIRV capability that verified many Indian heads back to strategic drawing board to counter this or come up with something more striking capability but for the moment, we took the game to next level. By the obvious logic, it's your turn to be more offensive and as usual, we will bring solution and new capability for such possible threat or India can stop it here and we are even in this subject.



Well MIRVs is as offensive as it gets. The best case scenario that india can hope for now is the mad doctrine by making MIRVs of its own which at best would give the face saving excuse that if they die then we all die, i.e. a loose loose situation. And even then, we will always have the ace of freedom fighters to wreak havoc in iok, something that they don't have. In other words, if Pakistan and india are at par both conventionally and atomically speaking, we still have huge edge over then in guerilla warfare!

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## Path-Finder




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## JamD

Go crazy!

The Ababeel can fit 3 Shaheen-III sized warheads inside it easily.









@The Deterrent

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## The Deterrent

JamD said:


> Go crazy!
> 
> The Ababeel can fit 3 Shaheen-III sized warheads inside it easily.
> View attachment 371671
> 
> View attachment 371670
> 
> @The Deterrent


Good effort. Also include the RV of Shaheen-IA, and notice whats common among them all.

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## anatolia

Our goverment has to show more effort to get some missile tech from Pakistan !paid service or friendship .any how!
good job Pakistan

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## Safriz

JamD said:


> Go crazy!
> 
> The Ababeel can fit 3 Shaheen-III sized warheads inside it easily.
> View attachment 371671
> 
> View attachment 371670
> 
> @The Deterrent


What reference you used for measurements?


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## 艹艹艹

*Congratulations to Pakistan, this is a great achievement.*

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## Safriz

The Deterrent said:


> Good effort. Also include the RV of Shaheen-IA, and notice whats common among them all.


1A and 3 have same Warhead. 
1A is testbed for all future technology improvement to be deployed on missiles.


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## JamD

شاھین میزایل said:


> What reference you used for measurements?


I've assumed Ababeel is based off the Shaheen-3 (1.4 m dia).

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## Safriz

JamD said:


> I've assumed Ababeel is based off the Shaheen-3 (1.4 m dia).


I guess you mean Shaheen-2 as Shaheen 3 dia is greater than 1.4 m.
You are correct in your assumption that Ababeel carries three Shaheen-1A / Shaheen-3 size warheads.
No offence but if I give u a criteria, can you please run calculation again and check Shaheen 3 dia and more importantly the warhead size?
The Rim diameter of wheels used on Shaheen-3 TEL is 36 inches.
You can find high resolution picture of Shaheen 3 TEL and taking Rim as standard, calculate the rest? Plz.
You can find better images, but just to be clear this is what I meant.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan also needs to work on long range Cruise Missiles as well it's time to go for VLS equipped Frigates and Destroyers which can fire long range cruise missiles.



Peaceful Civilian said:


> For ICBM , we need to give explanation to world, if we don't satisfy their question, then surely sanctions on the way, same reason India will not test more than 5000 km missile, as their enemy is china. And they will not test more than this.
> You have to walk with world, otherwise world will drag you 15 years behind due to sanctions. We will not test ICBM. Not going to happen as our enemy is India and our shaheen series covers them well.


Screw the world the main message is for the country who creates more mess. Sooner or later that country will come after us so better be prepared for that country and its allies.


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## MystryMan

Tipu7 said:


> @Windjammer @The Eagle @HRK @The Deterrent
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 371476


What is a MARV? Does it always accompanies a MIRV?


----------



## Zarvan

Syed_Adeel said:


> Its tip is change only because of Multiple warheads capability as mentioned that it can attack multiple targets. otherwise Pakistan has 2000KM Shaheen2 and 2750KM Shaheen 3 so there is no logic of another missile in the mid of both.


It's not SHAHEEN it's totally different Missile. I also initially thought same but after close look turns out it's totally new Missile


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## Inception-06

ALLAH HU AKBAR !


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## Thorough Pro

Our 6th test was Thermonuclear




[--Leo--] said:


> why a different name when shaheen can do the same and why 2200 km please answer





graphican said:


> Pakistan doesn't have an announced thermonuclear weapon. Could be Nuclear but not Thermonuclear.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Thorough Pro said:


> Our 6th test was Thermonuclear


what the difference & benefit?


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## Thorough Pro

People are asking what's the point? I want to answer it, but keeping my past practice of not breaking any news prematurely, I won't. Intelligent members who are not just the fan boys will get it if they think about it in conjunction with last test. 




RedStar86 said:


> This is amazing, super capability! I don't get whats the difference between this new missile and the Shaheen 3..
> Shaheen is a longer range from what i remember, *so whats the point in going back to a shorter range?*
> This is very interesting, and we are very Proud!!


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## graphican

Thorough Pro said:


> Our 6th test was Thermonuclear



Interesting. Has there been an official announcement? I would want to know if it was that.

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## Thorough Pro

Just a piece of advice, don't be too obsessed with our "declared" ranges......



Erl said:


> 2200 km guys. Don't look at Iran oherwise i will *****
> 
> View attachment 371450







Officially we never had any nukes. Our nuclear program was only for peaceful civilian purposes to benefit the mankind until May 11, 1998.

Why do we need to declare anything that is not needed to be declared?




graphican said:


> Interesting. Has there been an official announcement? I would want to know if it was that.

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## JamD

شاھین میزایل said:


> I guess you mean Shaheen-2 as Shaheen 3 dia is greater than 1.4 m.
> You are correct in your assumption that Ababeel carries three Shaheen-1A / Shaheen-3 size warheads.
> No offence but if I give u a criteria, can you please run calculation again and check Shaheen 3 dia and more importantly the warhead size?
> The Rim diameter of wheels used on Shaheen-3 TEL is 36 inches.
> You can find high resolution picture of Shaheen 3 TEL and taking Rim as standard, calculate the rest? Plz.
> You can find better images, but just to be clear this is what I meant.
> View attachment 371673



It comes out to be 1.5 m according to my calculations. You can just increase each measurement by 7% to correct for it. It is the relative size of Ababeel with respect to Shaheen 3 that matters.

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## Cookie Monster

anatolia said:


> Our goverment has to show more effort to get some missile tech from Pakistan !paid service or friendship .any how!
> good job Pakistan


Turkey and Pakistan have much to gain from each other in joint ventures

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## Safriz

JamD said:


> It comes out to be 1.5 m according to my calculations. You can just increase each measurement by 7% to correct for it. It is the relative size of Ababeel with respect to Shaheen 3 that matters.


Great. I came up with same 1.5 m for S-3 a while ago. 
Can u please calculate size of S-3 warhead, now that we know the motor body is 1.5 m wide?


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## Cookie Monster

MilSpec said:


> Well your post surely shows your class as an individual and the upbringing your parents gave you.


Yes his post may not be mature but instead of blaming him u should see how ur country men are belittling Pakistan's efforts/projects left and right...and not just in this case. It has been like this for every one of Pakistan's development. Indians are convinced that Pakistanis are incapable of progress. If any development happens it must have its origins in China or elsewhere. If u heard this same rhetoric over and over constantly after every demonstration of some capability, wouldn't u get annoyed? Eventually u would stop debating with facts bcuz they don't matter to the other side. Therefore trolling invites trolling.

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## JamD

شاھین میزایل said:


> Great. I came up with same 1.5 m for S-3 a while ago.
> Can u please calculate size of S-3 warhead, now that we know the motor body is 1.5 m wide?


Like I said earlier, just multiply the measurements in my original post by 1.07.


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## DesiWarrior

Erl said:


> Of course. Not so hard to find out mate
> I just asked about it's warhead's features. Is it thermonuclear warhead?



It's capable of carrying nuclear warheads as stated by ISPR. So far, Pakistan has not disclosed any information that it's working on a thermonuclear capability.


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## MilSpec

Cookie Monster said:


> Yes his post may not be mature but instead of blaming him u should see how ur country men are belittling Pakistan's efforts/projects left and right...and not just in this case. It has been like this for every one of Pakistan's development. Indians are convinced that Pakistanis are incapable of progress. If any development happens it must have its origins in China or elsewhere. If u heard this same rhetoric over and over constantly after every demonstration of some capability, wouldn't u get annoyed? Eventually u would stop debating with facts bcuz they don't matter to the other side. Therefore trolling invites trolling.


there is a report button on the bottom left corner. Use it. And no I am not blaming him, I am blaming his parents for not teaching him any better. Hope that clarifies it.


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## Thorough Pro

As I mentioned before,

Pewasta Reh Shajar Say, Umeed-e Bahar Rakh

There are many great news to follow.............. 

https://defence.pk/threads/successf...e-nuke-triad-club.471973/page-12#post-9105748

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## Yaseen1

smoke emission from missile should be reduced because it can help detect missile path if you look at russian satan missile you will notice that it emits very less smoke after launch

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## Thorough Pro

So kind of you to give us that much credit, actually they both are just a paper concept at this time.



Srinivas said:


> *Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages* and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.


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## Safriz

JamD said:


> Like I said earlier, just multiply the measurements in my original post by 1.07.


OK yara.
Here is your original diagram with corrections made. Your original figures in red. Multiplied by 1.07 in white.
Now that we know the the warhead to be fitted is 2.0 meter tall and 0.76 Meters wide.
How many can be fitted in a space 3.4 Meters tall and 1.8 Meters wide?
I am guessing there will be more than three.








Also if the RV is 5.14 meters tall ( warhead cowling 3.4 m + white bit at the bottom 1.74m) then the whole missile must be 20-21 meters tall.
The TEL which carries Topol is the same that carries Shaheen-3 . Topol is 22.7 m tall, so Ababeel can be easily carried by re-fitted Shaheen-3 TEL.

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## JamD

شاھین میزایل said:


> OK yara.
> Here is your original diagram with corrections made. Your original figures in red. Multiplied by 1.07 in white.
> Now that we know the the warhead to be fitted is 2.0 meter tall and 0.76 Meters wide.
> How many can be fitted in a space 3.4 Meters tall and 1.8 Meters wide?
> I am guessing there will be more than three.
> 
> View attachment 371677


My friend, if the diameter of the warhead and the MIRV bus increases by the same ratio, you will get similar configurations. I am using "similar" here the way it is used to describe similar triangles. This means the pictures and models will look EXACTLY the same, only the scale will change. All the measurements were lengths, no volumes or areas. I hope you now understand my weariness.


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## Pak_ Av8er

Srinivas said:


> Both Babur 3 and this missile are at initial development stages and these missiles take years to mature.
> 
> Pakistan makes tall claims, simple as that.



And you know this how?


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## HAIDER

saraa abhi taak laga howa hooo ???? laga rahoo

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## Hulk

Cookie Monster said:


> Yes his post may not be mature but instead of blaming him u should see how ur country men are belittling Pakistan's efforts/projects left and right...and not just in this case. It has been like this for every one of Pakistan's development. Indians are convinced that Pakistanis are incapable of progress. If any development happens it must have its origins in China or elsewhere. If u heard this same rhetoric over and over constantly after every demonstration of some capability, wouldn't u get annoyed? Eventually u would stop debating with facts bcuz they don't matter to the other side. Therefore trolling invites trolling.


By this definition everything is trolling. Why such one sided view. The same behaviour is exhibited by Pakistani's how are they different? Its just a matter of choice of posters. Some serious posters know how to ignore a troll and stay on topic. There is absolutely no other way you can handle trolls. Exact similar questions/phases are used by Pakistani's.


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## DesiWarrior

Bratva said:


> Ladies and Gentelman here comes one of the people from 90 percent idiot group of India. Do you know Ababeel is based on the mature tech of Shaheen 2 & 3 ? The Missile stages and guidance systems. Pakistan has been trying to make an MIRV since 2007-8. If you havent heard the rumors, press reports since last 10 years and come here and audaciously claim chinese connection, Then definitely we will label you a retard without wits common sense and IQ < 20


People like him should be immediately banned. I don't know how and why so many Indians troll on this forum, don't they have a life. I feel like some of them have multiple accounts and they keep spewing hatred and propaganda against Pakistan. We should have IP address tracker or some other form of tool in place to rid of these retards with multiple identities.


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## PakGuns

No trolling but it came after india's cold war and deployment of tanks along Pakistan border.. guess what will happen to those tanks...

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## GumNaam

PakGuns said:


> No trolling but it came after india's cold war and deployment of tanks along Pakistan border.. guess what will happen to those tanks...



 the best part is that they haven't even deployed any tanks on the Pakistani border yet, they were only "thinking" about it and BAM! We already have a fix! Alhumdulillah, we have a fix for everything they can possibly think of!

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## Cookie Monster

Hulk said:


> By this definition everything is trolling. Why such one sided view. The same behaviour is exhibited by Pakistani's how are they different? Its just a matter of choice of posters. Some serious posters know how to ignore a troll and stay on topic. There is absolutely no other way you can handle trolls. Exact similar questions/phases are used by Pakistani's.


Look at post #798. AUz was responding to Kinetic. Kinetic was propagating the same old Indian rhetoric of Pakistan's paint job of a Chinese missile. AUz responded in a similar not so mature manner. Milspec was quick to point out AUz's immaturity. Why not be fair across the board? Why single him out as the immature one and Kinetic gets a free pass?

As for choosing not to respond to trolls, give that advice to MilSpec too besides AUz.

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## Pak_ Av8er

Srinivas said:


> You are talking to an Indian a country which has ICBM and ABM technologies.
> 
> I have no intention to gate crash your party. Enjoy what ISPR said.



Yet you are here trying to discredit missile technology you do not possess.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

graphican said:


> Interesting. Has there been an official announcement? I would want to know if it was that.


Since early 80's we have been hearing that Pak nukes are like ~200x of Hiroshima guys...

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## Burhan Wani

Peaceful Civilian said:


> This is fragile explanation and bound to reject, world is already doing bombing on ISIL. And you need ICBM for these rats. Lolzzz. Can't stop laugh. What you think about world.
> Be realistic


You are peaceful that is why you cannot understand.


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## Dazzler

Bratva said:


> @Srinivas on another forum trying very hard to proof this SSM is MRV instead of MIRV
> 
> BC is ko chen nahi hai ?



After a failed attempt to convince folks in this thread for the same. lol

Man you've got to feel for them, it's been horrendous few months for these gus on most fronts.

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## Pak_ Av8er

شاھین میزایل said:


> You should check Indian twitter and Indian forums. It's کہرام over there


 Please do post some links

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## Dazzler

AUz said:


> Lmfao.
> 
> We have been talking about Pakistan's MIRVed missile development since over a DECADE. It's just that poor toiletless indians never believed Pakistani senior posters regarding the project. Now that we have broken a very advance glass ceiling in missile development and capability, indians like you are humiliated and confused---and blabbering about "where did THIS come from?! It's probably China "
> 
> What crying losers.
> 
> No wonder hindus were raped, butchered, and ruled over by superior Muslims for 1000s of years



get a hold of yourself and edit your post or get reported.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Local media in action....

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## HRK

The Eagle said:


> They already had it though,



Yes


The Eagle said:


> Agni-VI is panned from sub (if I am not wrong).


K-series of missiles

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## shjliu

2200KM that is respectable distance!!

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## Pak_ Av8er

GumNaam said:


> Yeah the Chinese call it "YU DUM FUK"!


 Fell off the chair laughing!

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## monitor

*Pakistan Tests New Ballistic Missile Capable of Carrying Multiple Nuclear Warheads*
Pakistan has completed the first flight test of the Ababeel surface-to-surface ballistic missile.






By Franz-Stefan Gady
January 25, 2017


The Pakistan military has reportedly conducted the first successful flight test of a new medium range ballistic missile (MRBM), according to the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the media arm of the Pakistan Armed Forces.

The test involved the successful launch of the surface-to-surface MRBM Ababeel, reportedly capable of carrying multiple warheads using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle technology (MIRV). The new missile purportedly has a maximum range of 2,200 kilometers (1,367 miles).

The January 24 test of the Ababeel MRBM follows the first-ever test of a nuclear-capable Babur-3 submarine-launched cruise missile (SLCM) from a submerged platform off the Pakistani coast in early January.

*Enjoying this article?* Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
“The test flight was aimed at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system,” the ISPS statement reads. “Ababeel is capable of carrying nuclear warheads and has the capability to engage multiple targets with high precision, defeating the enemy’s hostile radars.”

Furthermore, the statement stresses that the new missile reinforces strategic deterrence vis-à-vis India and its growing ballistic missile defense capabilities. “Development of Ababeel Weapon System is aimed at ensuring survivability of Pakistan’s ballistic missiles in the growing regional Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) environment. This will further reinforce deterrence.”

It is impossible to independently verify the test results from open source data and ISPR has not released additional technical details surrounding the launch. Pakistani President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif noted that the successful missile test was an important contribution to maintaining the balance of power in South Asia, _Radio Pakistan_ reports.

The Ababeel MRBM appears to be based on the M-11 (also known as CSS-7), a Chinese-made road mobile short-range ballistic missile, although this is impossible to confirm independently. The other two operational MRBMs in Pakistan’s arsenal, the Shaheen-I and Shaheen-II, are purportedly also based on the M-11, featuring two-stage solid-fueled rocket motors that reduce the time it takes to launch the missiles.

A third MRBM, the Shaheen-III, a multi-stage fueled ballistic missile with an estimated range of 2,750 kilometers (1,700 miles) is currently still under development by the National Development Complex. It is possible that the Ababeel is a more robust and redesigned variant of the Shaheen-III fitted with an improved terminal guidance system, among other modifications. Indeed, in order to accommodate a MIRV warhead, the Shaheen-III would in all likelihood have undergone a complete redesign.

Based on the press release it is unclear, however, whether Pakistan has mastered MIRV technology given that it merely mentions that the missile is “capable” of being fitted with a MIRV warhead, rather than announcing that it has mastered the technology and developed MIRV payloads.

And while the test will cause alarm in New Delhi, Islamabad will need to further invest in and develop intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities including satellite technology (e.g., by adapting and refining China’s Beidou-II satellite navigation system for Pakistan’s sea- and land-based missile systems) to operationalize ballistic missiles capable of carrying multiple warheads and field a credible MIRV capability.

Nevertheless, the possible introduction of MIRV warheads is a clear sign that the nuclear arms race between India and Pakistan is escalating. The mentioning of MIRV technology in the press release announces a new and more dangerous stage in the nuclear arms competition in South Asia.


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## Mrc

Cookie Monster said:


> Ssshhh don't spoil the game my friend. Just like how India invested in BMD systems only for Pakistan to make MIRV capable ones, let them first spend billions on this satellite based BMD. Then Pak can barge in with a satellite missile and troll them some more. I love this never ending trolling game.
> 
> Also @Mrc is being extraordinarily silent on this thread now. I was expecting a non sense rebuttal that he would post quickly without thinking.




Had a great night sleep... whats up ?? Last i checked was randiyans were planning to use star wars (and game of thrones tech) to conquer pakistan....

I also coined a new term ... burnol version 2 BUTT-NOL for randiyans

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## GumNaam

Mrc said:


> Had a great night sleep... whats up ?? Last i checked was infians were planning to use star wars (and game of thrones tech) to conquer pakistan....


Yeah and then we unleashed warheads outta hewn hell on your dhottis turning you into burnt hole in the ground. Now go back to sleep!


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## HRK

Fenrir said:


> The point's valid though. If your rocket can carry and deploy multiple objects like satellites, then with some guidance mods and a different bus, it could deploy multiple warheads too. India has the means, *but has yet to demonstrate* the validity of its MIRV capabilities.



I don't think you & I were talking something different if we ignore difference of wordings in our respective posts .... 

The *political will* (& more importantly NEED) to demonstrate the already acquired dual use technology specially in case of India which have a very robust missile program in my opinion was the only hindrance in its conversion for military use, even then they were openly discussing it in literature even their top scientists & engineers associated with missile program.

*Agni-VI reference was made as it it satisfy both political will & need against China, now I expect India to prepare this capability for Pakistan as well ....*

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...e-warheads-likely-by-2017-113050800034_1.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...th-multiple-warheads/articleshow/56191362.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...th-multiple-warheads/articleshow/56191362.cms (plz read last paragraph)


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## faithfulguy

Congrats. How many MIRV Is involved in this test?


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## Malik Usman

RedStar86 said:


> This is amazing, super capability! I don't get whats the difference between this new missile and the Shaheen 3..
> Shaheen is a longer range from what i remember, so whats the point in going back to a shorter range?
> This is very interesting, and we are very Proud!!



MIRV ( multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles) That is the Difference..

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## Rashid Mahmood

The list gets update.

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## GumNaam

@Mrc

Karachi to new delhi = 1100km
Shaheen top speed = 22000kmph

Time from launch in Karachi to new delhi turning into toast = 3 minutes

Do the math (the real math, not the indian kinda math)!

And I generously shaved off a lot of speed from the Shaheen as its speed is much greater than 22000kmph to account for launch to full speed and curvature and also increased the distance from Karachi to new delhi from the actual 1088km to 1100km and it STILL came out to be 3 minutes. 
Yar even bbuttnol v2 can't help you, it's most probably made in CHINA (aur bhi mirchiyaan lagain gi)!

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## HRK

شاھین میزایل said:


> Did u notice the thrust changes consistency? The color of smoke changes constantly showing change in water vapor percentage? Consistent with change in thrust pressure either due to vectoring or throttling ...i guess?


bhia chemistry shroo se meri dushman rahi hai .... can't comment about this


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## GumNaam

HRK said:


> bhia chemistry shroo se meri dushman rahi hai .... can't comment about this


Naah, I think that was just the shadow from the clouds.

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## Mrc

GumNaam said:


> @Mrc
> 
> Karachi to new delhi = 1100km
> Shaheen top speed = 22000kmph
> 
> Time from launch in Karachi to new delhi turning into toast = 3 minutes
> 
> Do the math (the real math, not the indian kinda math)!
> 
> Yar even bbuttnol v2 can't help you, it's most probably made in CHINA (aur bhi mirchiyaan lagain gi)!




Time come out to be 4.5 minutes... but if ypou fire it frpom lahore...it will be 3 minutes


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## dilpakistani

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Local media in action....


 ... maza nai aya... where are indian channels... they really make our day ...

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## graphican

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Local media in action....



I don't like this reporting style. It is stupid and Indian.

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## GumNaam

Mrc said:


> Time come out to be 4.5 minutes... but if ypou fire it frpom lahore...it will be 3 minutes



 well enjoy your 1.5 extra minutes on earth

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## PAKISTANI LEOPARD

Pakistan Zindabaad

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## Mrc

GumNaam said:


> Yeah and then we unleashed warheads outta hewn hell on your dhottis turning you into burnt hole in the ground. Now go back to sleep!




boss I think this is a case of friendly fire... we are both using mobile and not seeing each others flags... which are both from pakistan


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## GumNaam

dilpakistani said:


> ... maza nai aya... where are indian channels... they really make our day ...



Looks like one of Ababeel's warheads landed on arnab goswiny's face!


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## ziaulislam

a certian anonymous twitter handler @raj indian kumar confirms that this test was indeed a bogus test
footage was taken from 1960s lunar launch and was pasted, an excellent blend of Photoshop was used to make this cover. the whole world is now laughing on Pakistan. this is also confirmed by seeing how the missile exhaust too much flames but still moves slow

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## GumNaam

Mrc said:


> boss I think this is a case of friendly fire... we are both using mobile and not seeing each others flags... which are both from pakistan


Oh, sorry Bro, my bad and I humbly apologize.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Muhammad bin Hamid said:


> smoke emission from missile should be reduced because it can help detect missile path if you look at russian satan missile you will notice that it emits very less smoke after launch



@The Deterrent @JamD ....What do you say about this?

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## Mrc

GumNaam said:


> Oh, sorry Bro, my bad and I humbly apologize.




no issues. it takes two to tango... I was also at at fault

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## PaklovesTurkiye

GumNaam said:


> Oh, sorry Bro, my bad and I humbly apologize.



@Mrc ......

*boss I think this is a case of friendly fire... we are both using mobile and not seeing each others flags... which are both from pakistan*

hahahahaha...I just can't believe if that was the reason....Main wohi bolun k ye in dono Pakistanis ko kiya hogaya hai?

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## GumNaam

ziaulislam said:


> a certian anonymous twitter handler @raj indian kumar confirms that this test was indeed a bogus test
> footage was taken from 1960s lunar launch and was pasted, an excellent blend of Photoshop was used to make this cover. the whole world is now laughing on Pakistan. this is also confirmed by seeing how the missile exhaust too much flames but still moves slow

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## Mrc

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> @Mrc ......
> 
> *boss I think this is a case of friendly fire... we are both using mobile and not seeing each others flags... which are both from pakistan*
> 
> hahahahaha...I just can't believe if that was the reason....Main wohi bolun k ye in dono Pakistanis ko kiya hogaya hai?




if you are using mobile it does not show the flags

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## GumNaam

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> @Mrc ......
> 
> *boss I think this is a case of friendly fire... we are both using mobile and not seeing each others flags... which are both from pakistan*
> 
> hahahahaha...I just can't believe if that was the reason....Main wohi bolun k ye in dono Pakistanis ko kiya hogaya hai?


No its my fault, I need to read more closely. 



Mrc said:


> if you are using mobile it does not show the flags


Yeah unless you turn screen. Mods, please fix?

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## Cookie Monster

Mrc said:


> Had a great night sleep... whats up ?? Last i checked was randiyans were planning to use star wars (and game of thrones tech) to conquer pakistan....
> 
> I also coined a new term ... burnol version 2 BUTT-NOL for randiyans


U didn't respond to how u were wrong...remember that?


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## Mrc

Cookie Monster said:


> U didn't respond to how u were wrong...remember that?




ok ... I don't actually... but I think there was confusion ... since I was using mobile and don't see country flags... usually its not an issue... but last night messaging at fast pace.... I may have offended some people ... for which I dearly apologise.....

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## kṣamā

So now when the kite high nationalist have calmned down, let me ask this... Did you guys test MIRV capable missile or MIRV itself. Bcoz the video just shows the missile not the MIRV downrange. If it is really an MIRV test then what kind of bus was used? which type of warheads where used? 

Also to some learned members out here, how wide will be the MIRV throw considering the missile has range of 2000Km? (ie, the altitude achived by a 2000km balistic projectile is way less than 13000km missile, hence the warheads will be released at a lower altitude and hence a lower glide range)

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## AUz

kṣamā said:


> So now when the kite high nationalist have calmned down, let me ask this... Did you guys test MIRV capable missile or MIRV itself. Bcoz the video just shows the missile not the MIRV downrange. If it is really an MIRV test then what kind of bus was used? which type of warheads where used?
> 
> Also to some learned members out here, how wide will be the MIRV throw considering the missile has range of 2000Km? (ie, the altitude achived by a 2000km balistic projectile is way less than 13000km missile, hence the warheads will be released at a lower altitude and hence a lower glide range)



Ask @The Deterrent


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## hacker J

Hi first of all NO TROLLING PLEASE if you have the answer then reply

Pak already has Shaheen 2 capable of 2000 km and shaheen 3 capable of 2750 km so why test a completly new platform with MIRV why not shaheen 2 or a modified Shaeen 3 would make a lot more sense to test with new technologies ?


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## TaimiKhan

T-123456 said:


> Congratulations Pakistan.
> So,when do we get a few?



Why few, get the tech from us. Make them yourselves how many you want

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## The SC

If China would have helped Pakistan with MIRV technology, it would have taken a year or two to develop it not 10 years, since China already mastered the technology a long while ago..

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## Cookie Monster

Mrc said:


> ok ... I don't actually... but I think there was confusion ... since I was using mobile and don't see country flags... usually its not an issue... but last night messaging at fast pace.... I may have offended some people ... for which I dearly apologise.....


It's the part where u were calling me an idiot even though I provided proof of what I was saying.

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## Mrc

Cookie Monster said:


> It's the part where u were calling me an idiot even though I provided proof of what I was saying.




I was tired after job... I misread your post... appologies....
I thought you were indian

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## GumNaam

hacker J said:


> Hi first of all NO TROLLING PLEASE if you have the answer then reply
> 
> Pak already has Shaheen 2 capable of 2000 km and shaheen 3 capable of 2750 km so why test a completly new platform with MIRV why not shaheen 2 or a modified Shaeen 3 would make a lot more sense to test with new technologies ?


Could be any number of things. For one thing, I noticed that the new missile has side thrusters as well and is a 3 stage missile with MiRVs. Looks like a completely new missile that is possibly a heck of a lot faster than the current Shaheen series (which are travel at the maximum speed that is ridiculous to begin with). And keeping true to their traditions, the military will remain extremely tight lipped about every little detail surrounding the missile. They may never disclose the details and keep everyone guessing and panicking. The whole reason for this missile test was two fold:

1. to give confidence to the nation that is generals, scientists and engineers are silent, but not asleep.
2. to give modi, doval and company the following message: apni auqaat may reh!

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## Hell hound

ziaulislam said:


> a certian anonymous twitter handler @raj indian kumar confirms that this test was indeed a bogus test
> footage was taken from 1960s lunar launch and was pasted, an excellent blend of Photoshop was used to make this cover. the whole world is now laughing on Pakistan. this is also confirmed by seeing how the missile exhaust too much flames but still moves slow


yar yeah RAJ bhi koi bohat hi beysharam type ka insan hay itna zalil honey kay bad phir a gya hay
@Zibago @The Sandman @django @Moonlight @Chauvinist

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## monitor

Rashid Mahmood said:


> The list gets update.
> View attachment 371691




Interesting a country which have the technology to launch multiple satellite to orbit don't have the MIRV is unbelievable. They might hiding their capability .

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## GumNaam

Hell hound said:


> yar yeah RAJ bhi koi bohat hi beysharam type ka insan hay
> @Zibago @The Sandman @django @Moonlight @Chauvinist


Yay is bandar ko insaan to na kaho! 



monitor said:


> Interesting a country which have the technology to launch multiple satellite to orbit don't have the MIRV is unbelievable. They might hiding their capability .


indians love to show off and don't have the technology they claim to have. The fact is that they just purchase Russian SLVs, assemble them, give it some bajrangi hindi name and then launch satellites. That's all it is.

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## HRK

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Pakistan relies heavily on missiles and considers it basic punch from the beginning (since start of our nuke program)...



& this is the most dangerous thing ..... as mush the difference in conventional capabilities b/w India & Pakistan will increase the dependency of Pakistan on non-conventional means & False Sense of security in India will also increase

Further the increase gap in conventional capabilities with false sense of security in India will present a situation which may induce the Indian political class for misadventure just for the INTERNAL POLITICAL GAINS, so South Asia is trapped in a viscous circle ..... 
*
Welcome to Hell* *you all *....

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## Devil Soul

*Ababeel to ‘neutralise India’s defence shield’*
By Kamran Yousaf
Published: January 25, 2017
9SHARES
SHARE TWEET 
PHOTO: NNI

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan conducted on Tuesday its first successful test of Ababeel missile, using the Multi Independent Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV) technology which, officials say, is a landmark achievement to neutralise India’s ballistic missile defence shield.

The surface-to-surface ballistic missile can reach targets at a range of 2,200 kilometres, over three times the distance between Islamabad and New Delhi, according to an official statement released by the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR).

*Pakistan conducts first flight test of surface-to-surface Ababeel missile*

What is significant about this missile is that it is capable of delivering multiple warheads, using the MIRV technology. Ababeel is capable of delivering nuclear warheads and has the capability to engage multiple targets with high precision, defeating the enemy’s hostile radars, the ISPR said.

The test flight was aimed at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system, said the military’s media wing.

India last year tested a ‘locally designed’ anti-ballistic missile system, according to media reports, which could in theory intercept a nuclear-carrying ballistic missile.

A senior official working in the nuclear establishment told The Express Tribune that development of Ababeel was critical given India’s rapid development of the missile defence shield.

“We took minimal measures to restore deterrence equation,” said the official, who requested not to be quoted on the record because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

The official said the MIRV system has been developed to defeat India’s ballistic missile defence shield. Acquiring this technology, the official said, was critical to restoring deterrence stability, which he termed as critical for regional peace.

“Development of the Ababeel weapon system is aimed at ensuring survivability of Pakistan’s ballistic missiles in the growing regional Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) environment. This will further reinforce deterrence,” the ISPR said.

Last year, India claimed to have successfully tested the ballistic missile defence shield system, an expansive and complicated technology that seeks to prevent a missile attack from Pakistan.

Independent observers, however, are wary of Indian claims and say it is too early for the South Asian country to acquire a technology that at present only a handful of countries possess.

*Pakistan fires ‘first submarine-launched nuclear-capable missile*

The successful testing of Ababeel came days after Pakistan conducted the first-ever submarine-launched cruise missile Babur- III, which gives the country ‘credible second strike capability’.

Pakistan has now effectively acquired the capability to launch a missile from land, air and sea. The development of submarine-launched missile system will make Pakistan retain the ability to hit back at enemy in case its first strike capability is destroyed.

The upgrading of the missile programme is meant to counter India’s Cold Start Doctrine that seeks swift military action before Pakistan reacts.

The country’s civil and military leadership, including President Mamnoon Hussain, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and the three services chiefs congratulated the scientists and engineers on the successful conduct of the missile test.

The president and the prime minister conveyed their appreciation to the team involved and the country’s armed forces on this ‘landmark achievement’.

_Published in The Express Tribune, January 25th, 2017._

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## hacker J

GumNaam said:


> Could be any number of things. For one thing, I noticed that the new missile has side thrusters as well and is a 3 stage missile with MiRVs. Looks like a completely new missile that is possibly a heck of a lot faster than the current Shaheen series (which are travel at the maximum speed that is ridiculous to begin with). And keeping true to their traditions, the military will remain extremely tight lipped about every little detail surrounding the missile. They may never disclose the details and keep everyone guessing and panicking. The whole reason for this missile test was two fold:
> 
> 1. to give confidence to the nation that is generals, scientists and engineers are silent, but not asleep.
> 2. to give modi, doval and company the following message: apni auqaat may reh!




agreed your two concluding points are valid but still
1. read about Shaheen 3 its a 3 stage solid fuelled missile with a longer range, and more bulkier making it capable of carrying more MIRVs with greater yield.
2. Yes this new missile might be faster (not sure on it though) but missiles deploy MIRVs at a gluiding range that is just above or on the edge of BMD shield so a little difference in speed is not gonna matter much
3. As quoted by some members it might be a contender for SLBM ok yes it can be but then again you have to make changes in its design which could be made on either of Shaheen 2 or Shaheen 3 , I am just not able to relate the cut down range in the missile with a completly new missile because neither of Shaheen 2 or 3 are obsolute in terms of technology


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## Hetfield

Bashido said:


> What is SSM? Surface-surface missile?


A *surface-to-surface missile* (*SSM*) or *ground-to-ground missile* (*GGM*) is a missile designed to be launched from the ground or the sea and strike targets on land or at sea. They may be fired from hand-held or vehicle mounted devices, from fixed installations, or from a ship.


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## Hell hound

HRK said:


> & this is the most dangerous thing ..... as mush the difference in conventional capabilities b/w India & Pakistan will increase the dependency of Pakistan on non-conventional means & False Sense of security in India will also increase
> 
> Further the increase gap in conventional capabilities with false sense of security in India will present a situation which may induce the Indian political class for misadventure just for the INTERNAL POLITICAL GAINS, so South Asia is trapped in a viscous circle .....
> *
> Welcome to Hell* *you all *....


but on the other hand there is nothing much that we can do about the situation. conventional gap is only going to widen with every passing year and our only saving grace is either nukes or peace.


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## GumNaam

HRK said:


> & this is the most dangerous thing ..... as mush the difference in conventional capabilities b/w India & Pakistan will increase the dependency of Pakistan on non-conventional means & False Sense of security in India will also increase
> 
> Further the increase gap in conventional capabilities with false sense of security in India will present a situation which may induce the Indian political class for misadventure just for the INTERNAL POLITICAL GAINS, so South Asia is trapped in a viscous circle .....
> *
> Welcome to Hell* *you all *....



there is one big problem that india has; considering the event outpoar of indian soldiers helplessly complaining about how corruption is decaying the indian military from the top all the down to the roots of the very for soldiers shows that the indian military is big but fat and rusty headed by extremely corrupt and nepotistic generals and politicians. A corrupt general or politician may saber rattle a lot but when push comes to shove, they won't be able to fight for worth a damn.

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## Syed_Adeel

Zarvan said:


> It's not SHAHEEN it's totally different Missile. I also initially thought same but after close look turns out it's totally new Missile


I mean that the first and second stage boosters are same because they are suppose to do exactly same things as Shaheen 2 or 3. Third stage and warhead section is different off course the guidance and navigation would be different.



AUz said:


> With increases weight, thanks to MIRVs, the range would go down. So 2200km sounds credible
> 
> 2200km covers every single major indian city, industrial center, and economic hub. So range is not even an issue



Agree


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## HRK

Hell hound said:


> but on the other hand there is nothing much that we can do about the situation.



Economy is the first & independent foreign policy are the second key areas to address this situation ..... 



Hell hound said:


> conventional gap is only going to widen with every passing year and our only saving grace is either nukes



An unfortunate truth ....



Hell hound said:


> or peace.



At what cost.... ??? Does it cost more then my graceful existence .... ??

"I refuse to die before the enemy" .... *Welcome to Hell* *you all*

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## GumNaam

Hell hound said:


> but on the other hand there is nothing much that we can do about the situation. conventional gap is only going to widen with every passing year and our only saving grace is either nukes or peace.


The conventional gap is actually not that much. It's just that india is on a buying spree so it becomes known what they are buying. We, on the other hand are on a manufacturing spree especially of force multipliers so we can keep the secrecy. Further more, indians overlook the fact that their buying spree means they have to spend double the amount in sending the equipment back to the manufacturing nation for repairs and servicing which is very costly. The equipment sold as exports by Russia and the west is not the same type they keep for themselves. They keep the long lasting, reliable equipment for themselves and export the equipment that needs major repairs in a couple of months. That's how they make money.


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## Jf Thunder

waiting for it to be declared a fake 

or better yet, that India has a hidden MIRV too, which has obviously failed its tests

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## The SC

CASE STUDY 3
THE ORIGIN OF MIRV
https://fas.org/man/eprint/leitenberg/mirv.pdf
This shows the importance of MIRV technology since the 60's conception.. the why and how,,,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At least six technological advancements are under way which could seriously erode strategic stability in the subcontinent. *The six dimensions* of technological innovation in South Asia’s strategic competition are identified as:
1) modern combat aircraft and air defense capabilities
2) cruise and ballistic missiles;
3) sea-based deterrents;
4) tactical nuclear weapons (TNWs);
5) ballistic missile defense (BMD);
6) multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs).
To complement these developments, there are advancements in several areas: intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) technologies; communications and navigation; precision-strike weapons; anti- satellite (ASAT) technology; and cyber-warfare capabilities.

http://herald.dawn.com/news/1153418
So next for Pakistan it will be a robust BMD if it does not exist already..Or at least being in an advanced stage of development..

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## GumNaam

hacker J said:


> agreed your two concluding points are valid but still
> 1. read about Shaheen 3 its a 3 stage solid fuelled missile with a longer range, and more bulkier making it capable of carrying more MIRVs with greater yield.
> 2. Yes this new missile might be faster (not sure on it though) but missiles deploy MIRVs at a gluiding range that is just above or on the edge of BMD shield so a little difference in speed is not gonna matter much
> 3. As quoted by some members it might be a contender for SLBM ok yes it can be but then again you have to make changes in its design which could be made on either of Shaheen 2 or Shaheen 3 , I am just not able to relate the cut down range in the missile with a completly new missile because neither of Shaheen 2 or 3 are obsolute in terms of technology



You make valid points. Maybe it is the Shaheen 3 with MIRVs and more powerful boosters. Who knows.


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## HRK

GumNaam said:


> A corrupt general or politician may saber rattle a lot but when push comes to shove, they won't be able to fight for worth a damn.



A corrupt general or politician may use the situation to divert the sentiments of general public to save his arses, therefore India-Pakistan can't afford Internal destabilization & its a mutual responsibility.

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## GumNaam

HRK said:


> A corrupt general or politician may use the situation to divert the sentiments of general public to save his arses, therefore India-Pakistan can't afford Internal destabilization & its a mutual responsibility.


Yes true but they will still be too gutless to wage an actual war. Regardless, the responsibility of our generals is to ensure our own independence and integrity so thank God All Mighty that our corrupt politicians are scared to death of our generals while in india, their corrupt politicians are in kahuts with the corrupt generals and their foot soldiers have to starve for it.


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## Mrc

Jf Thunder said:


> that India has a hidden MIRV too, which has obviously failed its tests

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Ok so it's being said that new version of shaheen to be tested next month, stay tuned for now,

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## Yaseen1

Pakistan has to strengthen its air defense especially against drones.Daesh has released video in which they are striking multiple targets with u.s made drone in mousal Iraq.u.s forces in Afghanistan may give similar drones to isis to use them against Pakistan.

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## Yaseen1

Pakistan has to strengthen its air defense especially against drones.Daesh has released video in which they are striking multiple targets with u.s made drone using guided missiles in mousal Iraq.u.s forces in Afghanistan may give similar drones to isis to use them against Pakistan.


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## GumNaam

Muhammad bin Hamid said:


> Pakistan has to strengthen its air defense especially against drones.Daesh has released video in which they are striking multiple targets with u.s made drone using guided missiles in mousal Iraq.u.s forces in Afghanistan may give similar drones to isis to use them against Pakistan.


ghani's afghanistan doesn't have drones.



Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> Ok so it's being said that new version of shaheen to be tested next month, stay tuned for now,


Source?


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## vizier

Good news in a row after Babur 3 this seems to be another major achievement for Pakistan and ensures wide scale security and peace in the region by deterrance and balance against all types of threats. 

As I mentioned for Babur test when you get more powerful the more some will get more paranoid about your threat potential although you dont have direct intent of adversity against any of them but concerns of protection in case of agression. They will tend to make more plans like preemptive strikes to eliminate your threat potential so power comes with the cost of taking more protective measures . 

What can further be done in this case is using deep well protected hardened and armed(or ready to be armed within sufficient time)missile silos in mountainious regions similar to icbm silos covered from intense cruise missile attacks and even limited resistance to a ballistic first strike missile attack. mobile launch trucks patroling continiously is another option.

Range improvement would be an upgrade. As for now having 2 or single warheads in missiles would provide the option to strike further targets. Also after recent developments I am more certain that there are measures planned or are already taken to protect nuclear assets even better like more sensitive longer range early warning radars for early detection of ballistic missile attacks and longer range sams.

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## Hell hound

HRK said:


> Economy is the first & independent foreign policy is the second key areas to address this situation .....


but their economy is 7 time greater than ours we can't fill that gap no matter how hard we try 


HRK said:


> An unfortunate truth ....


but thanks to our engineers we can give them a bloody nose in the case of conflict(but thats about it)


HRK said:


> At what cost.... ??? Does it cost more then my graceful existence .... ??
> 
> "I refuse to die before the enemy" .... *Welcome to Hell* *you all*


exactly peace can't be achieved until they remain our enemy.best case scenario is we become indifferent to each other (and this step requires effort from both sides) through trade and increase the financial cost of war so much that it hurt both side on almost equal terms only then can we have peace and that too with ours and their dignity intact.
there is no need to make this land a hell more than it already is due to poverty.

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## F86 Saber

kṣamā said:


> So now when the kite high nationalist have calmned down, let me ask this... Did you guys test MIRV capable missile or MIRV itself. Bcoz the video just shows the missile not the MIRV downrange. If it is really an MIRV test then what kind of bus was used? which type of warheads where used?
> 
> Also to some learned members out here, how wide will be the MIRV throw considering the missile has range of 2000Km? (ie, the altitude achived by a 2000km balistic projectile is way less than 13000km missile, hence the warheads will be released at a lower altitude and hence a lower glide range)



Since you have asked so nicely, this particular test may just have been of a MIRV capable missile otherwise they might have shown the terminal stage as well. If so then the MIRVs will most probably be tested in the next phase.

However there is a strong possibility that both the missile and the MIRVs have already been tested either in this test or in any earlier tests which were not made public. It does not matter what the general public and the "Expert Raj's" believe, people in India, USA and other countries related to defense sector must already have the proper knowledge of what Pakistan is capable of.

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## BHarwana

Allah Ki Barqat Ababeel ki video main ababeel







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176

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## FlyingAce

Congratulations to All the Engineers, Scientists & SPD Bois... 
Certainly Pakistan have entered a league of MIRV Being the 6th Country... 
& Ababeel is the Perfect choice as it relates to our Islamic History in a Significant way.. 
Long Live Pakistan, Long Live SPD, Long Live our Military!

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## hacker J

GumNaam said:


> You make valid points. Maybe it is the Shaheen 3 with MIRVs and more powerful boosters. Who knows.



Neaa not Shaheen 3 I think its modified Shaheen 2 with powerful thrusters may be, plus I am a little unsure about MIRV because never heard of such a short medium range missile deploying MIRVs but if pak tests missile with MIRVs I wont be surprised untill now they just said its capable not actully tested it, anyways it was just the first test


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## Hell hound

GumNaam said:


> The conventional gap is actually not that much. It's just that india is on a buying spree so it becomes known what they are buying. We, on the other hand are on a manufacturing spree especially of force multipliers so we can keep the secrecy. Further more, indians overlook the fact that their buying spree means they have to spend double the amount in sending the equipment back to the manufacturing nation for repairs and servicing which is very costly. The equipment sold as exports by Russia and the west is not the same type they keep for themselves. They keep the long lasting, reliable equipment for themselves and export the equipment that needs major repairs in a couple of months. That's how they make money.


bro i have already derailed this thread enough let take this some where else shall we


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## HRK

Hell hound said:


> but their economy is 7 time greater than ours we can't fill that gap no matter how hard we try



and more then 5 time the population to feed ..... it does not matter if some other person eat 7 roti the question is can we afford our 2 breads ....

Take China & Japan as examples China is bigger economy then Japan but Japan have all the financial resources available at its disposable if it want to purse higher ambitious in military field ....

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## Hell hound

HRK said:


> Take China & Japan as examples China is bigger economy then Japan but Japan have all the financial resources available at its disposable if it want to purse higher ambitious in military field ....


that is exactly what i am saying bro we can give them a bloody nose just like japan can do to china but we can't do what our most users here expects of our army (retaking kashmir by force)


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## GumNaam

Hell hound said:


> that is exactly what i am saying bro we can give them a bloody nose just like japan can do to china but we can't do what our most users here expect our army to do(retaking of kashmir by force)


Never say never...

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## hacker J

Hi @Windjammer @Areesh @Devil Soul 
can you please have a look at 0:05 to 0:08 look closely a bird comes close to the missile and then flies away from it, the bird should have been minuscule in comparison to missile but the bird look quit large, can you explain or rope in any expert to ? I think it might be camera effect but its a little weird ASSUMING THE MISSILE TO BE 9-10 METERS LONG



NOT TROLLING


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## Tiger Awan

The SC said:


> CASE STUDY 3
> THE ORIGIN OF MIRV
> https://fas.org/man/eprint/leitenberg/mirv.pdf
> This shows the importance of MIRV technology since the 60's conception.. the why and how,,,
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> At least six technological advancements are under way which could seriously erode strategic stability in the subcontinent. *The six dimensions* of technological innovation in South Asia’s strategic competition are identified as:
> 1) modern combat aircraft and air defense capabilities
> 2) cruise and ballistic missiles;
> 3) sea-based deterrents;
> 4) tactical nuclear weapons (TNWs);
> 5) ballistic missile defense (BMD);
> 6) multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs). To complement these developments, there are advancements in several areas: intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) technologies; communications and navigation; precision-strike weapons; anti- satellite (ASAT) technology; and cyber-warfare capabilities.
> 
> http://herald.dawn.com/news/1153418
> So next will be a robust BMD if it does not exist already..Or at least being in an advanced stage of development..



sir can we get the whole book too ??


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## jermankill

BHarwana said:


> Allah Ki Barqat Ababeel ki video main ababeel
> 
> View attachment 371705
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176


no offense ..... yeh Allah ki barkat se nahi hai Editor ki barkat se hua hai check the video again

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## Safriz

Abebeel does look sluggish when compared with Shaheen-3


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/824151621663858688


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## The SC

hacker J said:


> Hi @Windjammer @Areesh @Devil Soul
> can you please have a look at 0:05 to 0:08 look closely a bird comes close to the missile and then flies away from it, the bird should have been minuscule in comparison to missile but the bird look quit large, can you explain or rope in any expert to ? I think it might be camera effect but its a little weird ASSUMING THE MISSILE TO BE 9-10 METERS LONG
> 
> 
> 
> NOT TROLLING


The bird was close to the camera not to the missile, you need to learn to look (observe) in 3 dimensions not 2.. Besides that, you can compare the missile dimensions to its ground surroundings..

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## BHarwana

Jhanda Pakistan ka Banda Hindustan ka . Haiiiin. Annay dobara dekh video.


jermankill said:


> no offense ..... yeh Allah ki barkat se nahi hai Editor ki barkat se hua hai check the video again


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## ArrowHead

Maithil Brahmin said:


> Maybe Russian's will create something called S-600 which will have laser beam to destroy MIRV. We will buy it. No problem.



No matter you buy S-600 or S-1200, you will find us ahead of you every time

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## Tiger Awan

شاھین میزایل said:


> Abebeel does look sluggish when compared with Shaheen-3
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/824151621663858688



Bro plz explain the sluggishness too

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## F86 Saber

BHarwana said:


> Allah Ki Barqat Ababeel ki video main ababeel
> 
> View attachment 371705
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176



Come on dude don't be one of those who find "Allah" or "Muhammad" written in Tomatoes and Potatoes. These are Seagulls not Ababeel


Seagull








Ababeel is much smaller

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## TheDarkKnight

hacker J said:


> Hi @Windjammer @Areesh @Devil Soul
> can you please have a look at 0:05 to 0:08 look closely a bird comes close to the missile and then flies away from it, the bird should have been minuscule in comparison to missile but the bird look quit large, can you explain or rope in any expert to ? I think it might be camera effect but its a little weird ASSUMING THE MISSILE TO BE 9-10 METERS LONG
> 
> 
> 
> NOT TROLLING


Look these two guys are holding the Eiffel tower now 
http://static4.businessinsider.com/...200-900/tourists-holding-the-eiffel-tower.jpg

Lookup forced prespective; objects closer to your camera/eyes will appear larger compared to the more distant ones.

Regards

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## HRK

The Deterrent said:


> Found the required warning:
> 
> View attachment 371605
> 
> 
> View attachment 371606
> 
> http://msi.nga.mil/NGAPortal/msi/qu...alue1=Number_DESC&MSI_outputOptionValue2=-999



"Hazardous Operation" ..... new term .....

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## Rashid Mahmood

HRK said:


> "Hazardous Operation" ..... new term .....



It is hazardous for some.
Not being specific to maintain confidentiality.

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## maximuswarrior

Man, it feels good waking up this morning and going through the comments. MashAllah!



hacker J said:


> Hi first of all NO TROLLING PLEASE if you have the answer then reply
> 
> Pak already has Shaheen 2 capable of 2000 km and shaheen 3 capable of 2750 km so why test a completly new platform with MIRV why not shaheen 2 or a modified Shaeen 3 would make a lot more sense to test with new technologies ?



Calm down. It is fake LMAO No need for the questions. You can just sit back and relax.


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## AUz

hacker J said:


> Hi @Windjammer @Areesh @Devil Soul
> can you please have a look at 0:05 to 0:08 look closely a bird comes close to the missile and then flies away from it, the bird should have been minuscule in comparison to missile but the bird look quit large, can you explain or rope in any expert to ? I think it might be camera effect but its a little weird ASSUMING THE MISSILE TO BE 9-10 METERS LONG
> 
> 
> 
> NOT TROLLING



The bird is very near to camera. They fly away due to sound of missile.

Missile, being very large, seems nearer to camera than it actually is.

Makes sense?

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## maximuswarrior

kṣamā said:


> So now when the kite high nationalist have calmned down, let me ask this... Did you guys test MIRV capable missile or MIRV itself. Bcoz the video just shows the missile not the MIRV downrange. If it is really an MIRV test then what kind of bus was used? which type of warheads where used?
> 
> Also to some learned members out here, how wide will be the MIRV throw considering the missile has range of 2000Km? (ie, the altitude achived by a 2000km balistic projectile is way less than 13000km missile, hence the warheads will be released at a lower altitude and hence a lower glide range)



The same applies to you. It is fake. Everyone is lying including all the reputable sources around the world. Only Indian sources are right. It was a fake test. Grab a coffee and chill out.


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## AUz

شاھین میزایل said:


> Abebeel does look sluggish when compared with Shaheen-3
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/824151621663858688



That's a good sign actually  

Confirms a much greater throw away weight (hence, MIRVs with their added weight on the system)


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## Windjammer

hacker J said:


> Hi @Windjammer @Areesh @Devil Soul
> can you please have a look at 0:05 to 0:08 look closely a bird comes close to the missile and then flies away from it, the bird should have been minuscule in comparison to missile but the bird look quit large, can you explain or rope in any expert to ? I think it might be camera effect but its a little weird ASSUMING THE MISSILE TO BE 9-10 METERS LONG
> 
> 
> 
> NOT TROLLING


Hope this helps, camera angle dude, the birds were scattering due to the terrific sound not because they were in the flight path.

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## maximuswarrior

monitor said:


> *Pakistan Tests New Ballistic Missile Capable of Carrying Multiple Nuclear Warheads*
> Pakistan has completed the first flight test of the Ababeel surface-to-surface ballistic missile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Franz-Stefan Gady
> January 25, 2017
> 
> 
> The Pakistan military has reportedly conducted the first successful flight test of a new medium range ballistic missile (MRBM), according to the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the media arm of the Pakistan Armed Forces.
> 
> The test involved the successful launch of the surface-to-surface MRBM Ababeel, reportedly capable of carrying multiple warheads using Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicle technology (MIRV). The new missile purportedly has a maximum range of 2,200 kilometers (1,367 miles).
> 
> The January 24 test of the Ababeel MRBM follows the first-ever test of a nuclear-capable Babur-3 submarine-launched cruise missile (SLCM) from a submerged platform off the Pakistani coast in early January.
> 
> *Enjoying this article?* Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
> “The test flight was aimed at validating various design and technical parameters of the weapon system,” the ISPS statement reads. “Ababeel is capable of carrying nuclear warheads and has the capability to engage multiple targets with high precision, defeating the enemy’s hostile radars.”
> 
> Furthermore, the statement stresses that the new missile reinforces strategic deterrence vis-à-vis India and its growing ballistic missile defense capabilities. “Development of Ababeel Weapon System is aimed at ensuring survivability of Pakistan’s ballistic missiles in the growing regional Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) environment. This will further reinforce deterrence.”
> 
> It is impossible to independently verify the test results from open source data and ISPR has not released additional technical details surrounding the launch. Pakistani President Mamnoon Hussain and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif noted that the successful missile test was an important contribution to maintaining the balance of power in South Asia, _Radio Pakistan_ reports.
> 
> The Ababeel MRBM appears to be based on the M-11 (also known as CSS-7), a Chinese-made road mobile short-range ballistic missile, although this is impossible to confirm independently. The other two operational MRBMs in Pakistan’s arsenal, the Shaheen-I and Shaheen-II, are purportedly also based on the M-11, featuring two-stage solid-fueled rocket motors that reduce the time it takes to launch the missiles.
> 
> A third MRBM, the Shaheen-III, a multi-stage fueled ballistic missile with an estimated range of 2,750 kilometers (1,700 miles) is currently still under development by the National Development Complex. It is possible that the Ababeel is a more robust and redesigned variant of the Shaheen-III fitted with an improved terminal guidance system, among other modifications. Indeed, in order to accommodate a MIRV warhead, the Shaheen-III would in all likelihood have undergone a complete redesign.
> 
> Based on the press release it is unclear, however, whether Pakistan has mastered MIRV technology given that it merely mentions that the missile is “capable” of being fitted with a MIRV warhead, rather than announcing that it has mastered the technology and developed MIRV payloads.
> 
> And while the test will cause alarm in New Delhi, Islamabad will need to further invest in and develop intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities including satellite technology (e.g., by adapting and refining China’s Beidou-II satellite navigation system for Pakistan’s sea- and land-based missile systems) to operationalize ballistic missiles capable of carrying multiple warheads and field a credible MIRV capability.
> 
> Nevertheless, the possible introduction of MIRV warheads is a clear sign that the nuclear arms race between India and Pakistan is escalating. The mentioning of MIRV technology in the press release announces a new and more dangerous stage in the nuclear arms competition in South Asia.



Keep guessing, Franz-Stefan. That's our main strength.


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## Windjammer

شاھین میزایل said:


> Abebeel does look sluggish when compared with Shaheen-3
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/824151621663858688



Not sluggish but rather the attitude.
Now consider a sports car pulling out and a heavy goods vehicle driving off.

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## samikhan007

Finally, a news that i can be proud of thank you bajwa............! #I BleedGreen....!

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## karakoram

Zabardast achievement. Well done Pakistan

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## Shaji Pappan

Testing a MIRV capable missile and demonstrating MIRV technology are entirely different.. If Pakistan tested only a MIRV capable missile not MIRV technology, that means some slight modification to existing ballistic missile.. That's all..


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## maximuswarrior

AUz said:


> Lmfao.
> 
> We have been talking about Pakistan's MIRVed missile development since over a DECADE. It's just that poor toiletless indians never believed Pakistani senior posters regarding the project. Now that we have broken a very advance glass ceiling in missile development and capability, indians like you are humiliated and confused---and blabbering about "where did THIS come from?! It's probably China "
> 
> What crying losers.
> 
> No wonder hindus were raped, butchered, and ruled over by superior Muslims for 1000s of years



LOL Pakistan has been working on MIRV tech for a very very long time. This is a lot of blood and sweat we witnessed yesterday. Man, I cannot hide my joyous feelings. First the amazing achievement of Babur III and now Ababeel! We have sent a very clear message to the enemies. You can't fvck around with Pakistan. We are not Afghanistan, Syria or Iraq. We are going to look you straight in the eye if you have anything to say.



Kinetic said:


> lol You never had an unsuccessful test.
> 
> This is China's reply to India. Never heard of this missile before. MIRV takes decades of mastery in RV and missile technologies. India is still developing though we have decades of launch experiences with satellites. Now your missile suddenly comes out of a hanger. lol



LMAO Keep burning.

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## Pyara9

I remember reading something about a no fly zone over all of Pakistan? With the shiny new s400 that India was going to buy?? And according to our Indian friends place them close to the border. Guess what?? OBSOLETE! Before you even have it? How do you like them apples?

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## kṣamā

maximuswarrior said:


> The same applies to you. It is fake. Everyone is lying including all the reputable sources around the world. Only Indian sources are right. It was a fake test. Grab a coffee and chill out.


That's not how you debate. You can bring in your evidence to prove me wrong. I would stand corrected.


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## BHarwana

kṣamā said:


> That's not how you debate. You can bring in your evidence to prove me wrong. I would stand corrected.


Man first of all get on a single agenda. Either decide that it was fake or decide that it was Chinese don't contradict your own statements.

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## kṣamā

BHarwana said:


> Man first of all get on a single agenda. Either decide that it was fake or decide that it was Chinese don't contradict your own statements.


Sorry but unlike others I don't have preconcieved Notions. I would like to look for the facts myself and not be affected by what others have to say. Baki nationalistic comments to chalte rehte hai. But facts apne jagah pe nationalism apne jagah pe


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## Pyara9

kṣamā said:


> Don't
> Don't you think you guys should actually test MIRV before inviting yourself to the club. As per ISPR they have tested "MIRV Capable" missile not MIRV itself. Theoretically any missile is MIRV capable as long as you remove the unitary warhead and attach multiple small warhead on a bus. Claiming to test a nuke when you just tested a missile claimed to be "Nuclear Capable" is utter foolishness then why is everyone claiming that they tested MIRV tech?



Sure! this time its not the colors it's a Grammer mistake by ISPR? Are u willing to risk your life to find out if it was a Grammer Mistake or an acutall MIRV? Im sure ur navy knows better. Who were actually there monitoring with their fancy radars.


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## BHarwana

kṣamā said:


> Sorry but unlike others I don't have preconcieved Notions. I would like to look for the facts myself and not be affected by what others have to say. Baki nationalistic comments to chalte rehte hai. But facts apne jagah pe nationalism apne jagah pe


So why do you think that we would test shaheen 2 rocket again. It was MIRV tested the warhead design and MIRV bus was tested.


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## Devil Soul

hacker J said:


> Hi @Windjammer @Areesh @Devil Soul
> can you please have a look at 0:05 to 0:08 look closely a bird comes close to the missile and then flies away from it, the bird should have been minuscule in comparison to missile but the bird look quit large, can you explain or rope in any expert to ? I think it might be camera effect but its a little weird ASSUMING THE MISSILE TO BE 9-10 METERS LONG
> 
> 
> 
> NOT TROLLING


The bird is closer to the camera.....

*What you need to know about Pakistan's Ababeel ballistic missile*
ALI OSMAN — UPDATED 8 minutes ago
WHATSAPP
 6 COMMENTS
 PRINT
The strategic forces of Pakistan, with the testing of the 2,200 kilometre range Ababeel ballistic missile, have achieved vital technological and deterrence capability with the introduction of a missile with multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicle (MIRV) compatibility.

The Ababeel's MIRV capability means it can carry multiple warheads, instead of a single payload. Hence, it is a single missile that provides the strategic capability of hitting multiple targets with a single launch. Such missiles greatly increase the potency of a country’s strategic nuclear arsenal.

Pakistan has become the seventh country in the world to now posses the technology, which was developed in the late '60s by the Americans and Russians.

India first tested a MIRV capable missile in 2012, with the successful launch of the Agni-V. India conducted its second successful test in 2013. The tests conducted by India had offset the strategic strike balance in South Asia.

In order to maintain that balance, it had become vital for the Pakistani strategic forces to develop MIRV capable missiles.

*Pakistan’s strategic deterrence challenged*
India’s quest for a ballistic missile defence (BMD) system also challenged the effectiveness of Pakistan’s strategic deterrence. To counter India’s BMD, which is still in development, Pakistan had to develop a viable solution given financial and resource constraints. Although the Ababeel has shorter range when compared with India’s Agni-V, it provides the needed deterrence.

Ballistic missiles equipped with MIRVs release their warheads typically in the post-boost phase, and reduces the effectiveness of a missile defence system, which relies on intercepting individual warheads. While an attacking missile can have multiple warheads, interceptors have a single warhead.

In both military and economic terms, the cost of maintaining an effective defence against MIRVs would significantly increase. Multiple interceptor missiles would be required for each incoming offensive missile. The defending side also has to factor in the probability of hit per interceptor, and whether the warhead is a decoy or not, hence reducing the effectiveness of such systems manifold.






Ababeel ballistic missile. -ISPR


*How MIRV-capable ballistic missiles work*
In a MIRV-capable ballistic missile, the main rocket motor pushes the warhead containing compartment into a free flight suborbital ballistic flight path. After the end of the boost phase, the compartment manoeuvres using onboard rocket motors and utilises an inertial guidance system for maintaining accuracy in flight.

With a ballistic trajectory achieved, the re-entry vehicles with the warheads onboard releases the munition on that trajectory, and then manoeuvres to release the other munitions on other targets. The process is repeated till all munitions are released on the designated targets.

Accuracy is crucial and the onboard navigational systems ensure accurate delivery within the circular error of probability (CEP). The CEP is simply the radius of the circle that the warhead has a 50 per cent chance of falling into.

Details and technical specifications of the onboard systems and missiles are closely guarded national secrets, in order to limit the counter measures that can be taken against such missiles. It is not yet clear how many MIRVs will be carried by the Ababeel.

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## The Deterrent

kṣamā said:


> So now when the kite high nationalist have calmned down, let me ask this... Did you guys test MIRV capable missile or MIRV itself. Bcoz the video just shows the missile not the MIRV downrange. If it is really an MIRV test then what kind of bus was used? which type of warheads where used?
> 
> Also to some learned members out here, how wide will be the MIRV throw considering the missile has range of 2000Km? (ie, the altitude achived by a 2000km balistic projectile is way less than 13000km missile, hence the warheads will be released at a lower altitude and hence a lower glide range)


Going by the limits of the NAVAREA warning, MIRVs would have been deployed as MRVs, in this test. Besides, since this was the first test of the system, it was flown on a much lofted trajectory and much lesser ranger (~1100km), and the focus was on validating performance of all 3 stages and successful ejection of MIRVs. Having said that, your concern doesn't matters because sooner or later Pakistan will demonstrate true MIRV capability. NESCOM didn't go to such lengths just for show.

That's true that the MIRV spread will be lower, but we can only speculate. The lateral spread might not be as much as the horizontal one, but I'd expect it be anywhere from 100-200km apart overall.

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## F86 Saber

kṣamā said:


> Don't
> Don't you think you guys should actually test MIRV before inviting yourself to the club. As per ISPR they have tested "MIRV Capable" missile not MIRV itself. Theoretically any missile is MIRV capable as long as you remove the unitary warhead and attach multiple small warhead on a bus. Claiming to test a nuke when you just tested a missile claimed to be "Nuclear Capable" is utter foolishness then why is everyone claiming that they tested MIRV tech?



With my limited knowledge on this subject i can say that every missile cannot be MIRV capable as fitting the canopy with multiple warheads means redesigning the canopy by increasing it's size coupled with adding more juice to the propulsion system to support the additional weight means redesigning the fuel storage. Both these changes mean the whole missile needs to be redesigned. This is just common sense.

And Pakistani scientists are not stupid to spend time and resources on designing an MIRV capable missile if they are not able to produce MIRVs. 

Like i said earlier, people in the Indian defense forces surely know what Pakistan is capable of.

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## Shaji Pappan

Pyara9 said:


> Sure! this time its not the colors it's a Grammer mistake by ISPR? Are u willing to risk your life to find out if it was a Grammer Mistake or an acutall MIRV? Im sure ur navy knows better. Who were actually there monitoring with their fancy radars.


Whether Pakistan has mastered MIRV technology given that it merely mentions that the missile is “capable” of being fitted with a MIRV warhead, rather than announcing that it has mastered the technology and developed MIRV payload (Miniaturized nuclear warheads for MIRVs).


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## Pyara9

All You indian kids are funny. Do you actually think It's possible to fake a missile test in this day and age? With all the spying tools n technology i.e radars, satellites ? Do you actually believe that Pakistan launched a missile into the sky and India didn't know What kind it was? Where it was headed? If India didn't know then i have to say All ur intelligence agencies, Ur militaire, ur airforce and all the junk u spend billions of dollars on procuring from Isreal, Russia, U.S is Absolutely Waste of money n junk.

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## HRK

graphican said:


> *@All Members,*
> 
> There was an anti-tank missile tested by Pakistan which was called "Hijara". I am trying to find its reference as like Abbabeel, that name was also taken from the same sura.
> 
> *Anybody has exact name of that anti-tank missile and specs handy?*





Bratva said:


> That was not an Anti tank missile but rather Runway penetration bomb



No
Runway penetration bomb= Hafar 
Air deliver Anti Tank Cluster Bomb= Hijara

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## Peaceful Civilian

HRK said:


> no no .... you have wrongly diagnose his disease ... he need this


Can't believe even you are trolling instead of ignoring trolls, you are inviting them for this, It derails thread further.


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## Safriz

Here is a web page where you can calculate how many small circles of certain Diameter a Bigger circle can hold.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/smaller-circles-in-larger-circle-d_1849.html

If i put The bigger circle Dia as 1.8 meters as calculated earlier to be the Dia of Payload fairing of Ababeel missile and 0.76m for smaller circles as calculated earlier for the warhead Dia of Shaheen-3,presumably used on Ababeel as MIRV. Then it gives result as 3 can be held.
But if i reduce the Dia of inner circles by just 4 Cm to 0.72 M then it says the circle of 1.8m can hold 4 smalled circles of 0.72 Meters dia.
I am assuming 0.72 as MIRV size of Ababeel as the 0.76 M figure we calculated on Shaheen 3 was with Warhead canopy. However the MIRV won't have that warhead canopy individually . So it must be smaller? @JamD

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## Peaceful Civilian

Pyara9 said:


> All You indian kids are funny. Do you actually think It's possible to fake a missile test in this day and age? With all the spying tools n technology i.e radars, satellites ? Do you actually believe that Pakistan launched a missile into the sky and India didn't know What kind it was? Where it was headed? If India didn't know then i have to say All ur intelligence agencies, Ur militaire, ur airforce and all the junk u spend billions of dollars on procuring from Isreal, Russia, U.S is Absolutely Waste of money n junk.


They are just saying what their media tells, they majority believes it's all about just paint job and that too not much shiny even changes color while flying.


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## Muhammad Omar

GOOGLE MAPS EXPERT

are now where to be seen yet   

BUT BUT PAKISTAN BOUGHT THIS FROM CHINA

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## Pyara9

Shaji Pappan said:


> Whether Pakistan has mastered MIRV technology given that it merely mentions that the missile is “capable” of being fitted with a MIRV warhead, rather than announcing that it has mastered the technology and developed MIRV payload (Miniaturized nuclear warheads for MIRVs).



Like i said not the color of missile this time, it's a matter of Grammer and twisting of words. Look here boy Pakistan wasn't trying to impress the Pakistani Public definitely not pdf fans when it performed the test. It was sending a message a message to India. Trust me Indian Navy, Raw, Iaf, etc... Was watching the test on their fancy gadgets from russia, Isreal, USA. Come on now we live in the 21st century. N please don't try to tell me Pakistan Launched a missile and Indian air Force, raw, Navy didn't know what kind it was n wher it was going.


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## truthseeker2010

Muhammad bin Hamid said:


> Pakistan has to strengthen its air defense especially against drones.Daesh has released video in which they are striking multiple targets with u.s made drone in mousal Iraq.u.s forces in Afghanistan may give similar drones to isis to use them against Pakistan.



pakistan has already exhibited its capabilities against drones, from advance Israeli made to hand held quad copters.....

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## Falcon26

The Indians have been stunted by this latest test. They immediately reverted back to their familiar shell of "painted Chinese missile" even Vipin Narang an Indian MIT professor who always propogates the typical anti Pakistan vitriol had to admit Pakistan is way ahead of India in the MIRV game. This after years of red faced denials hahaha 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823896600107958272

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## Srinivas

The missile will be test fired from Pakistani territory which is roughly 200 KM from Indian border. Indian radars can pick up the missile during launch phase and hit the missile during its course.

The Green pine radars can pick up even small objects like foot ball that fly 100's of km away.

This missile cannot be a shield to implement the left over agenda after partition for pakistan.

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## Srinivas

Stealth said:


> aap nay 10,000 sare posts ise kisam ke ch****apay wali karkay likes letay rahay ho ?



jealous of my likes

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## The Deterrent

Srinivas said:


> The missile will be test fired from Pakistani territory which is roughly 200 KM from Indian border. Indian radars can pick up the missile during launch phase and *hit the missile during its course*.
> 
> The Green pine radars can pick up even small objects like foot ball that fly 100's of km away.


_Aji thora bold part ko explain tou kariye_. 
Explain the bold part please. How?

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## ito

Yes, this will compromise India's BMD, but I am sure India will find some solutions to this.

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## Pyara9

Falcon26 said:


> The Indians have been stunted by this latest test. They immediately reverted back to their familiar shell of "painted Chinese missile" even Vipin Narang an Indian MIT professor who always propogates the typical anti Pakistan vitriol had to admit Pakistan is way ahead of India in the MIRV game. This after years of red faced denials hahaha
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823896600107958272[/QUO
> 
> 
> these dumb Indian kids think it's easy to fake a missile Launch? Specially ur with ur enemy next door watching ur every move on their fancy gadgets. They jst don't get it man. Suppa poweee which can't even mange to become a regional power. lmao


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## Counterpunch

I am no expert on the matter, but I think it does little to neutralize India's ABM shield

1) S-400 can trace (and hence attempt to target) the missile well inside Pakistan's airspace, or well before it has started descent for multiple war head delivery
2) If we believe the capabilities of S-400, it is little (or no) different for it to be faced with 1 missile or 4 smaller missiles at a time

So, in my humble opinion, where MIRV capability will aid future critical developments, there it cannot be dubbed as an anti anti-missile shield weapon

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## khansaheeb

Srinivas said:


> The missile will be test fired from Pakistani territory which is roughly 200 KM from Indian border. Indian radars can pick up the missile during launch phase and hit the missile during its course.
> 
> The Green pine radars can pick up even small objects like foot ball that fly 100's of km away.
> 
> This missile cannot be a shield to implement the left over agenda after partition for pakistan.



Part of Pakistan's missile program is to ensure safe passage and delivery of these missiles on mission. These include defence on the ground, in flight and close to target. This is achieved by anti-anti air missiles, in flight optimised satellite guidance, stealth and electronic counter measures etc. Pakistan will always stay one step ahead of our enemies.


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## Stealth

Srinivas said:


> jealous of my likes



problem aap ke post nahe un logoon ki hain jo likes ka button dabatay rahay hain isay meri opinion aur mazboot hoti ja rahe hey oye waqaye ye sare state he pagal hey hahhahahhahaha

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## MadDog

iLION12345_1 said:


> I just visited the Indian Defence forum to see what they had to say about this , this was my first visit there and I have to say I was quite surprised , they are so pathetic and immature , personal insults , death threats and what not , and they ask why people don't like them , those words give an impression of their country , they can go ruin themselves I guess.
> on topic : awesome achievement, I'm still laughing at the immaturity of the butthurt indians.



Yup it was pretty disgusting, i visited it too. I guess even many Indians would prefer having a sane discussion here on PDF than to go to Indian defence forum


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## Pyara9

Peaceful Civilian said:


> They are just saying what their media tells, they majority believes it's all about just paint job and that too not much shiny even changes color while flying.



I know bro, These kids compare a missile launch to a man getting an enlargement wink; No it's not blue pill its the real thing. Trust me ur wife will notice! haha


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## The Deterrent

Counterpunch said:


> I am no expert on the matter, but I think it does little to neutralize India's ABM shield
> 
> 1) S-400 can trace (and hence attempt to target) the missile well inside Pakistan's airspace, or well before it has started descent for multiple war head delivery
> 2) If we believe the capabilities of S-400, it is little (or no) different for it to be faced with 1 missile or 4 smaller missiles at a time
> 
> So, in my humble opinion, where MIRV capability will aid future critical developments, there it cannot be dubbed as an anti anti-missile shield weapon


1. Negative. Contrary to the popular belief, MIRV deployment begins during ascent after termination of boost phase.
2. True that the difference Ababeel brings to the table is only 3 times more RVs, however S-400's terminal exo/endo-atmospheric interception envelope can not intercept ballistic targets with speeds over 4800m/s (~Mach 15).

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## Srinivas

The Deterrent said:


> _Aji thora bold part ko explain tou kariye_.
> Explain the bold part please. How?

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## TooRave

Srinivas said:


> The missile will be test fired from Pakistani territory which is roughly 200 KM from Indian border. Indian radars can pick up the missile during launch phase and hit the missile during its course.
> 
> The Green pine radars can pick up even small objects like foot ball that fly 100's of km away.
> 
> This missile cannot be a shield to implement the left over agenda after partition for pakistan.


Bro it carries hardly 2-3 warheads.It's just a SHAHEEN with slightly modified airframe .Real MIRVs which can't be destroyed are procured by USA or Russia.Their MIRV even has more than 10 warheads.
Our BMDs are enough for this missile.


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## Shaji Pappan

Pyara9 said:


> All You indian kids are funny. Do you actually think It's possible to fake a missile test in this day and age? With all the spying tools n technology i.e radars, satellites ? Do you actually believe that Pakistan launched a missile into the sky and India didn't know What kind it was? Where it was headed? If India didn't know then i have to say All ur intelligence agencies, Ur militaire, ur airforce and all the junk u spend billions of dollars on procuring from Isreal, Russia, U.S is Absolutely Waste of money n junk.





Pyara9 said:


> Like i said not the color of missile this time, it's a matter of Grammer and twisting of words. Look here boy Pakistan wasn't trying to impress the Pakistani Public definitely not pdf fans when it performed the test. It was sending a message a message to India. Trust me Indian Navy, Raw, Iaf, etc... Was watching the test on their fancy gadgets from russia, Isreal, USA. Come on now we live in the 21st century. N please don't try to tell me Pakistan Launched a missile and Indian air Force, raw, Navy didn't know what kind it was n wher it was going.


India have no such capability to track missile tests by other countries with such precision..
For acquiring MIRV tech, you have to master many sophisticated technologies from boosters to radars, seekers and sophisticated mission control centers..Also cutting edge techs like weapon dispersion, thermonuclear miniaturization, re entry of mirvs etc.. If Pakistan conducted a successful MIRV tech demonstration, it's a big leap for Pakistan in the field of defence technology.

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## Safriz

To S-400 .......

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## Srinivas

TooRave said:


> Bro it carries hardly 2-3 warheads.It's just a SHAHEEN with slightly modified airframe .Real MIRVs which can't be destroyed are procured by USA or Russia.Their MIRV even has more than 10 warheads.
> Our BMDs are enough for this missile.



These days there are technologies which can destroy the missile in the enemy territory itself. The missile has to travel some time to cross the border. Mean time there is enough time for ABM systems.

The MIRV capability comes handy once the missile nears the target.

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## The Deterrent

Srinivas said:


>


Is it just me or does this 'infographic' mentions MIRVs somewhere?

Edit: My bad, I seem to have engaged the wrong person. You have a nice day, sir.

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## Srinivas

The Deterrent said:


> Is it just me or does this 'infographic' mentions MIRVs somewhere?
> 
> Edit: My bad, I seem to have engaged the wrong person. You have a nice day, sir.



Thought of answering you, deleted my post. Thanks for notifying me.


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## The Deterrent

Srinivas said:


> Thought of answering you, deleted my post. Thanks for notifying me.

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## Khafee

The Deterrent said:


>


Like your sense of humor, keep it up

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## TooRave

Srinivas said:


> These days there are technologies which can destroy the missile in the enemy territory itself. The missile has to travel some time to cross the border. Mean time there is enough time for ABM systems.
> 
> The MIRV capability comes handy once the missile nears the target.


Exactly..
Also it takes time to change different trajectories..For a nearest country like Pakistan it can be destroyed even before releasing first warhead..

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## Srinivas

The Deterrent said:


>



Is it sarcasm, oh ... I thought you are serious. You also got one like for your sarcasm from a professional. keep it up !


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## Mrc

TooRave said:


> Exactly..
> Also it takes time to change different trajectories..For a nearest country like Pakistan it can be destroyed even before releasing first warhead..



Wow... u guys can destroy any thing

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## TooRave

Mrc said:


> Wow... u guys can destroy any thing


Don't get emotional..what illogical did I say?

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## Mo12

Pakistan now needs to build a defence shield to be fully covered from all angles now


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## Mrc

TooRave said:


> Don't get emotional..what illogical did I say?




Its not exactly a scud u are talking about


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## GuardianRED

Mo12 said:


> Pakistan now needs to build a defence shield to be fully covered from all angles now


Good Point , what does pakistan have to count the Indian missile with MIRV?

So before jumping and saying india missile shield is defeated, one must be able to protect oneself first!


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## Mo12

GuardianRED said:


> Good Point , what does pakistan have to count the Indian missile with MIRV?


Not sure if India has a MIRV, but can Pakistan defend against any of India missiles?

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## Immanuel

With a combination of AAD, PAD, S-400, long range early detection, this missile whether MIRV capable or actually MIRVed (highly unlikely) can quite easily be shot down well in its boost phase itself. More so, India is getting S-400 with next gen 77N6 missiles which can tackle RVs and since India in phase one will deploy 5 Full scale regiments and have another 7 regiments under MII, we are looking at thousand of missiles being used for Defence against such missiles. Another fact is if such missiles are fired you can be sure, it will be raining Agni fire on Pak relentlessly, more so you have no defenses against it. Atleast we have several systems coming online that can cater to a variety of ballistic missile threats.

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## TooRave

Mrc said:


> Its not exactly a scud u are talking about


Well our radar can detect any launch from your launch pads..
Also you will be releasing 2-3 warheads within range of almost 200 kms which is in our radar range..
All warheads are not launched together from atmosphere..Missile has to change trajectory..It needs time..Our nearest BMDs will already be in action

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## Mo12

There is a reason why China and India has bought the S-400 system, because its the best in the world


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## ACE OF THE AIR

ito said:


> Yes, this will compromise India's BMD, but I am sure India will find some solutions to this.


How is it that you did not know before the test? 

Any date by which India would find the solution?



Srinivas said:


>



This is only showing single missile not the MIRV. One more technical issue is if this missile re-entry is not from outer space but within the atmosphere then how advantageous is the missile defence shield.

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## Pyara9

Shaji Pappan said:


> India have no such capability to track missile tests by other countries with such precision..
> For acquiring MIRV tech, you have to master many sophisticated technologies from boosters to radars, seekers and sophisticated mission control centers..Also cutting edge techs like weapon dispersion, thermonuclear miniaturization, re entry of mirvs etc.. If Pakistan conducted a successful MIRV tech demonstration, it's a big leap for Pakistan in the field of defence technology.



O Really? U can't detect a missile launch? how are u going to protect ur self from it then? Not even s300? what abt raw?? What about ur navy in Indian ocean? So ur telling me we launch a missile into the sky fire it over the Indian ocean n the entire nation known enemy next door dosn't know about it? How come we can detect ur submarine way deep in the ocean? N detect everytime ur fighter jet goes airborne?? India dosn't have technology?? India dosn't have command centers?? India dosn't have technology?? Am i reading this correctly?? Shit i think im going blind. What ever happen to suppa pawa? 46inch chest?



Shaji Pappan said:


> India have no such capability to track missile tests by other countries with such precision..
> For acquiring MIRV tech, you have to master many sophisticated technologies from boosters to radars, seekers and sophisticated mission control centers..Also cutting edge techs like weapon dispersion, thermonuclear miniaturization, re entry of mirvs etc.. If Pakistan conducted a successful MIRV tech demonstration, it's a big leap for Pakistan in the field of defence technology.



I mean the Real supa pawa knew 1 month in advance. Thats why they placed sanctions on our missile related companies. So the imaginary suppaa pawa dosn't know even after the launch?

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## Srinivas

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> How is it that you did not know before the test?
> 
> Any date by which India would find the solution?
> 
> 
> 
> This is only showing single missile not the MIRV. One more technical issue is if this missile re-entry is not from outer space but within the atmosphere then how advantageous is the missile defence shield.



India can detect the missile minutes after its launch since the border is close and can hit the incoming missile as it ascends.

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## hacker J

maximuswarrior said:


> Man, it feels good waking up this morning and going through the comments. MashAllah!
> 
> 
> 
> Calm down. It is fake LMAO No need for the questions. You can just sit back and relax.



u were not even asked to answer that little head, go and baffle that out somewhere else


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## Mrc

TooRave said:


> Well our radar can detect any launch from your launch pads..
> Also you will be releasing 2-3 warheads within range of almost 200 kms which is in our radar range..
> All warheads are not launched together from atmosphere..Missile has to change trajectory..It needs time..Our nearest BMDs will already be in action



Flight time for shaheen 3 on lofted trajectory from.easterm border to delhi is 3 minutes...

Descend speed is mac 20... terminal velocity around mac 6...
Forgot to say reentry vehicle can change trajectory several times to put any calculations off
Intercept that before mirv..

U guys google and read... but have no idea about challenges involved... making fools of your selves

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## ito

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> How is it that you did not know before the test?
> 
> Any date by which India would find the solution?
> 
> 
> 
> This is only showing single missile not the MIRV. One more technical issue is if this missile re-entry is not from outer space but within the atmosphere then how advantageous is the missile defence shield.





Why from me? Learn from the Indian who is working on BMD

http://www.news18.com/news/india/in...o-catch-the-new-pak-bird-ababeel-1340493.html

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Srinivas said:


> India can detect the missile minutes after its launch since the border is close and can hit the incoming missile as it ascends.


Agreed detection is possible but what about the reaction time...Missile shields are designed to intercept MIRV's that fly well above 100 km and then separate multiple war heads upon re-entry. This gives enough time for the defence shield to adequately select the targets for interception. Please remember, you’re trying to catch a good-sized rocket headed for Low Earth Orbit within 60-300 seconds. The re-entry phase is a poor option because the missile is already on-target — blowing up a nuclear or chemical rocket might just drop the warhead slightly outside of town as opposed to on the city center. 

Each ICBM contains a bunch of Multiple Independently targetable Reentry Vehicles, some containing genuine warheads, some dummies to confuse defense systems.

This means the closer the target area the lower chance of interception.

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## Srinivas

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Agreed detection is possible but what about the reaction time...Missile shields are designed to intercept MIRV's that fly well above 100 km and then separate multiple war heads upon re-entry. This gives enough time for the defence shield to adequately select the targets for interception. Please remember, you’re trying to catch a good-sized rocket headed for Low Earth Orbit within 60-300 seconds. The re-entry phase is a poor option because the missile is already on-target — blowing up a nuclear or chemical rocket might just drop the warhead slightly outside of town as opposed to on the city center.
> 
> Each ICBM contains a bunch of Multiple Independently targetable Reentry Vehicles, some containing genuine warheads, some dummies to confuse defense systems.
> 
> This means the closer the target area the lower chance of interception.
> View attachment 371758



Yes the reaction time is low but because of the close proximity the detection can be quicker and similarly the launch of anti missile.

during the ascending phase into atmosphere, the missile path is predictable and can be shot down.

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## Tps43

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> That was gold. Aalaa..Cracked me up.
> 
> @The Sandman @Doordie @tps77 @Zibago
> 
> 
> 
> Iskey munh me kela de dena chayie....


 koi nhi hum india ka liya Johnny sins hain IYKWIM

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## Counterpunch

The Deterrent said:


> 1. Negative. Contrary to the popular belief, MIRV deployment begins during ascent after termination of boost phase.
> 2. True that the difference Ababeel brings to the table is only 3 times more RVs, however S-400's terminal exo/endo-atmospheric interception envelope can not intercept ballistic targets with speeds over 4800m/s (~Mach 15).


1. Thank you for correcting
2. So, the IRV delivered by Ababeel will have that much speed?

Regards,


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## TooRave

Mrc said:


> Flight time for shaheen 3 on lofted trajectory from.easterm border to delhi is 3 minutes...
> 
> Descend speed is mac 20... terminal velocity around mac 6...
> Forgot to say reentry vehicle can change trajectory several times to out any calculations off
> Intercept that before mirv..
> 
> U guys google and read... but have no idea about challenges involved... making fools of your selves


That descend speed is almost same for any ballistic missile..
Yes distance is the factor but S400s is made to intercept almost anything but ICBMs..Although it's impossible to intercept after reentry ..
India has ability to detect & intercept even before it goes out of atmosphere..


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## The Deterrent

Counterpunch said:


> 1. Thank you for correcting
> 2. So, the IRV delivered by Ababeel will have that much speed?
> 
> Regards,


I cannot quote any figures here, just pointing out the obvious.


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## Mrc

TooRave said:


> That descend speed is almost same for any ballistic missile..
> Yes distance is the factor but S400s is made to intercept almost anything but ICBMs..
> India has ability to detect & intercept even before it goes out of atmosphere..




There is a maximum speed at which any radar can track an object...
Speed of shaheen series is greater than speed that can be tracked by s 400

As for indian abilities to intercept things before they go out of atmosphere....

I rather not say what i am thinking...

Take some rest ... a bit more reading

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## TooRave

Mrc said:


> There is a maximum speed at which any radar can track an object...
> Speed of shaheen series is greater than speed that can be tracked by s 400
> 
> As for indian abilities to intercept things before they go out of atmosphere....
> 
> I rather not say what i am thinking...
> 
> Take some rest ... a bit more reading


It's almost impossible for any air defense to intercept after reentry...S500 might have that capability but for now it's impossible...
Also India has Green pine,swordfish to detect your any launch..


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## Mrc

TooRave said:


> It's almost impossible for any air defense to intercept after reentry...S500 might have that capability but for now it's impossible...
> Also India has Green pine,swordfish to detect your any launch..




U do realise that seeing and tracking are two entirely different things??


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## The Sandman

Hell hound said:


> yar yeah RAJ bhi koi bohat hi beysharam type ka insan hay itna zalil honey kay bad phir a gya hay
> @Zibago @The Sandman @django @Moonlight @Chauvinist


Dude he's a ''besharam'' of course he ain't gonna stop and see what i predicted in my post #111

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## TooRave

Mrc said:


> U do realise that seeing and tracking are two entirely different things??


After getting tracked it can be intercepted during boost phase before separation of warheads..


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## BetterPakistan

Muhammad Omar said:


> BUT BUT PAKISTAN BOUGHT THIS FROM CHINA



BUT BUT BUT its a fake test declared by indian swami

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## Mrc

TooRave said:


> After getting tracked it can be intercepted during boost phase before separation of warheads..



Theoratically ..yes. u have 90 seconfs to detect track and get an interceptor on target
And target may be flying faster than interceptor


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## Ultima Thule

Mrc said:


> Theoratically ..yes. u have 90 seconfs to detect track and get an interceptor on target
> And target may be flying faster than interceptor


Sir ignore him please, even US don't have the capability to intercept BM in boost phase, they have the capability of intercepting BM at mid course

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## Bratva

There are rumour flyings Pakistan going to test 4000 KM Missile. 

@Ghareeb_Da_Baal said news coming in media, next month new version of Shaheen- X would be tested. 

@The Deterrent @HRK

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## JamD

شاھین میزایل said:


> Here is a web page where you can calculate how many small circles of certain Diameter a Bigger circle can hold.
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/smaller-circles-in-larger-circle-d_1849.html
> 
> If i put The bigger circle Dia as 1.8 meters as calculated earlier to be the Dia of Payload fairing of Ababeel missile and 0.76m for smaller circles as calculated earlier for the warhead Dia of Shaheen-3,presumably used on Ababeel as MIRV. Then it gives result as 3 can be held.
> But if i reduce the Dia of inner circles by just 4 Cm to 0.72 M then it says the circle of 1.8m can hold 4 smalled circles of 0.72 Meters dia.
> I am assuming 0.72 as MIRV size of Ababeel as the 0.76 M figure we calculated on Shaheen 3 was with Warhead canopy. However the MIRV won't have that warhead canopy individually . So it must be smaller? @JamD


I would still stick to my original analysis of 3 for the following reasons:
1-There is no "canopy" on the nose cone of any of our missiles before Ababeel. What you see IS the reentry vehicle. Hints to this are the thrusters that can often be seen at the bottom of the RV (probably for spin up or maybe even post separation maneuvering). These can be seen even in the picture in your post. Don't go by the paraded systems those are mockups and omit a lot of the detail.
2- There has to be some clearance between the individual warheads and the fairing.
3- The fairing isn't 0 thickness, it has some thickness of its own.
4- Warheads also have significant weight, it's not only a matter of space but weight and range as well.
5- It would make sense that a commonality of RV would be pursued and they would use Shaheen 3s RV in ababeel.

I don't have reliable numbers for the measurements of Shaheen 1A but I strongly suspect it is the same warhead on S1a S3 and Ababeel.

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## Manidabest

GREAT JOB WELL DONE PAKISTAN !!!!

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## Cool_Soldier

Pakistan achieved this capability couple of years back but it was revealed yesterday.
I believe it was necessary to conduct such tests (Last month Babur 3 and Yesterday Ababeel Test) due to publically existence of COLD START.

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## Mrc

Yeah prospects of cold start just got colder

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## HRK

Bratva said:


> There are rumour flyings Pakistan going to test 4000 KM Missile.
> 
> @Ghareeb_Da_Baal said news coming in media, next month new version of Shaheen- X would be tested.
> 
> @The Deterrent @HRK



can't comment but pir o mursheed na mana kiya hai 2750 is zada soochne ka liya .... "filhaal"

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Shaji Pappan said:


> Whether Pakistan has mastered MIRV technology given that it merely mentions that the missile is “capable” of being fitted with a MIRV warhead, rather than announcing that it has mastered the technology and developed MIRV payload (Miniaturized nuclear warheads for MIRVs).






Even NASR uses a miniature nuclear warhead.

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## messiach

Then i have to respect your opinion.
Highly precide ball-bearings for MRV prj. were developed 97-98. 



Bashido said:


> What if i told you that it is started in 2007.

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## Shaji Pappan

Mrc said:


> Yeah prospects of cold start just got colder


Cold start is itself a deterrent..


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## P4K1ST4N

Muhammad bin Hamid said:


> smoke emission from missile should be reduced because it can help detect missile path if you look at russian satan missile you will notice that it emits very less smoke after launch





PaklovesTurkiye said:


> @The Deterrent @JamD ....What do you say about this?



Just notice differences between *Liquid* and *Solid Propellants*. You will get the answer.

=> RS-28 Sarmat *"Satan 2"* or *"Satan 1"* is a Russian *liquid-fueled* Ballistic missile.
_




_

=> *LGM-30 Minuteman III* is American *Solid-Propellant* Ballistic missile with_ "3 warheads"




_


=> Now Pakistan's *Ghauri family* of ballistic missiles,* Liquid-fueled.




*

=> Pakistan's *Shaheen Family,* *Solid-propellant.




*

=> Finally *Ababeel Family,* first 2 stages *Solid-propellant. *(multiple warheads)
*



*

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## Shaji Pappan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Even NASR uses a miniature nuclear warhead.


NASR is a Tactical nuclear wepon.. How can you compare a low-yield battlefield weapons with strategic nuclear deterrent?? Here you need high yield thermonuclear miniaturized payloads..

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## Mitro

Starlord said:


> we don't want him to Die, we want him to rule India for another 4 years



2017 is the year of shame for Indian according to Chinese calendar omg and it just started.

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## faithfulguy

How many MIRV was conducted with this test. Is it certain that MIRV was tested or it only has that capability.


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## CriticalThought

Right. Our Indian friends are thinking extremely one-dimensional. Please consider the following points:

1. Ababeel is just a model for future SLBM. Good luck tracking launches from the middle of Indian ocean.

2. India would be committing a folly if it operates S-400 near the border. Reasons:

a. It will be the target of our anti-radiation cruise missiles.

b. It will also have its hands full taking care of Nasr.

c. By your own admission, Pakistan sends cross-border terrorists. These terrorists have successfully attacked and destroyed multiple high value Indian installations. A high value target like S-400 would attract them like bees to honey even in peace time. In war time, it would be a free for all.

So either you operate you multi-billion dollar system near the border and risk losing all that money in one big hit, or you utilize your strategic depth, in which case you will be saying hello to it during the re-entry phase.

You guys like to boast of your multi-layer ABM system, but you forget we have a multi-layer, and multi-dimensional (land, air, and sea based) missile system. The analysis I have seen so far is naïve and rather simplistic.

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## Immanuel

CriticalThought said:


> Right. Our Indian friends are thinking extremely one-dimensional. Please consider the following points:
> 
> 1. Ababeel is just a model for future SLBM. Good luck tracking launches from the middle of Indian ocean.
> 
> 2. India would be committing a folly if it operates S-400 near the border. Reasons:
> 
> a. It will be the target of our anti-radiation cruise missiles.
> 
> b. It will also have its hands full taking care of Nasr.
> 
> c. By your own admission, Pakistan sends cross-border terrorists. These terrorists have successfully attacked and destroyed multiple high value Indian installations. A high value target like S-400 would attract them like bees to honey even in peace time. In war time, it would be a free for all.
> 
> So either you operate you multi-billion dollar system near the border and risk losing all that money in one big hit, or you utilize your strategic depth, in which case you will be saying hello to it during the re-entry phase.
> 
> You guys like to boast of your multi-layer ABM system, but you forget we have a multi-layer, and multi-dimensional (land, air, and sea based) missile system. The analysis I have seen so far is naïve and rather simplistic.



You keep assuming that while Pak is attacking, there aren't any counter attacks. Atleast we have our own AAD/PAD, soon S-400 and others. We also have Rafales, MKI and Jag with weapons like the GBU-105 SFW smart cluster munitions. Enter Pakistani airspace is watched for day and night. what makes you think S-400 will be deployed anywhere near the border, we can stay ten of miles of away and still have almost all of Pak under a no fly zone with the S-400. 

India in phase 1 will have 5 full scale regiments of S-400 with another 7 to be build in India under MII later on. Each full scale regiment can deploy well over 300 missiles not even taking into account reloads. Each regiment will have many fire units and fire units can be as far 100 km away from the regimental command.

You really think in an all out conventional war, you can match the firepower India can unleash. Forget the years past, today's war reserves are plenty and war wastage reserves are at the highest levels. With 1000 Pinaka rockets manufactured annually, over 800+ ballistic missiles produced and deployed in the last 20 years.

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## Gufi

The wonderful arguments here make me so happy. It is like one has one has opened a game and is sniping lone ducks in duck hunt. War is chaotic and the sky will not be clear, it will not be like some little skirmish that triggers a full ballistic missile nuclear war. Wonder what is the radars will be like after both air forces are flying, drones and helicopters are in the air, and all in all, the battlefield will be chaotic. 
And I am amazed at the level of expertise needed to stop multiple cruise and ballistic missile launches on the ground or just as they are fired at probably a few minutes apart from each other, stopping them all even though the ability to track and destroy multiple targets is not going to be easy, the weapon system itself will be one of the prime target of multiple attacks, but somehow the missiles will be targeted as soon as they are launched. 
Also the range for the S 400 is 230 KM for a ballistic target, and that too a target which will have some stealth features, not the missiles which the S 400 has been primed to counter. Add to that the speed which will be, for simple math, faster then a scud missile, at Mach 6(faster I know but too many arguments), will mean that the missile will be covering the 2200 KM or so in around 20 minutes, and in its trajectory it will be dividing to create more targets, but somehow the missile shield stays.
Maybe I have this all wrong, it has to do with the theory of Indian movies, a man with a Manpads will take them all out.
But it is good to have an enemy which is so sure of itself, at least we as a nation recognised the threat of the s 400 and work towards countering it.

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## Kamran Abbasi

abey yar gandi batain

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## krash

monitor said:


> Interesting a country which have the technology to launch multiple satellite to orbit don't have the MIRV is unbelievable. They might hiding their capability .


 Have you ever known India or Indians to be tight lipped? I mean they start jumping to the stars way before they even put anything on paper. And then that show continues for decades until they buy, induct or scrap the project. 

Let's not forget that these are the 'sir jee kal' people we are talking about.

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## CriticalThought

Immanuel said:


> You keep assuming that while Pak is attacking, there aren't any counter attacks. Atleast we have our own AAD/PAD, soon S-400 and others. We also have Rafales, MKI and Jag with weapons like the GBU-105 SFW smart cluster munitions. Enter Pakistani airspace is watched for day and night. what makes you think S-400 will be deployed anywhere near the border, we can stay ten of miles of away and still have almost all of Pak under a no fly zone with the S-400.
> 
> India in phase 1 will have 5 full scale regiments of S-400 with another 7 to be build in India under MII later on. Each full scale regiment can deploy well over 300 missiles not even taking into account reloads. Each regiment will have many fire units and fire units can be as far 100 km away from the regimental command.
> 
> You really think in an all out conventional war, you can match the firepower India can unleash. Forget the years past, today's war reserves are plenty and war wastage reserves are at the highest levels. With 1000 Pinaka rockets manufactured annually, over 800+ ballistic missiles produced and deployed in the last 20 years.



Our strategy is simple. We are doomed and will make sure India is doomed as well. You are dealing with people who will have your blood at any and all costs to self.

Once we have that out of the way, let's look at some figures. The S-400 launches two missiles per target in order to ensure accuracy. So each regiment can only take out 150 targets. It is dealing with the following targets:

1. Nasr, IF it is close enough.
2. Drones.
3. Fighter jets.
4. Cruise missiles.
5. Ballistic missiles (Shaheen etc.).
6. And finally Ababeel with MIRV capability that can launch decoys.

Yes, Indian fighter jets will be out in full force. But the point is, your precious S-400 will still have to track the fighter jets, even if it doesn't target them. And the funny thing is, the more Indian fighter jets you fly, the more computation your Radar has to apply to make sure it doesn't target friendly aircraft by accident. You will be over-loading your own radars if you fly too many jets.

So, with the above list in mind, what do think? Can we saturate your radars or not?

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## Immanuel

CriticalThought said:


> Our strategy is simple. We are doomed and will make sure India is doomed as well. You are dealing with people who will have your blood at any and all costs to self.
> 
> Once we have that out of the way, let's look at some figures. The S-400 launches two missiles per target in order to ensure accuracy. So each regiment can only take out 150 targets. It is dealing with the following targets:
> 
> 1. Nasr, IF it is close enough.
> 2. Drones.
> 3. Fighter jets.
> 4. Cruise missiles.
> 5. Ballistic missiles (Shaheen etc.).
> 6. And finally Ababeel with MIRV capability that can launch decoys.
> 
> Yes, Indian fighter jets will be out in full force. But the point is, your precious S-400 will still have to track the fighter jets, even if it doesn't target them. And the funny thing is, the more Indian fighter jets you fly, the more computation your Radar has to apply to make sure it doesn't target friendly aircraft by accident. You will be over-loading your own radars if you fly too many jets.
> 
> So, with the above list in mind, what do think? Can we saturate your radars or not?



Again why do you isolate the S-400 by itself, it is but a part of the layer of defence, your fighters, cruise missiles won't get past the hordes of Akash SAMs, Spyder SAM (of which we have already deployed hundreds of missiles) and upcoming Barak-8/MR-SAM. On top we also have the AAD and PAD. What makes you think we or any of our systems will be overloaded?. Matter of fact we train regularly with over 50-70 aircraft deployed in the air. Also with each S-400 fire unit having it's own radar element and everything being channeled in real time to the the various Integrated Air Command Centres, we have more than enough capability to sustain high intensity ops. The S-400 will have clear target list and it will focus it's efforts on those targets. S-400 will mostly focus it's efforts on long range AWACS, transports, tankers, bombers, long range cruise missiles when detected early on, ballistic missiles, tactical missiles.

Why will we fly too many jets? We will at best dedicate 2 or at worst 3 air commands worth of air assets towards a war with Pak.


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## Sully3

right now the pakistan has put the ball firmly in indian court. 

stop with the fake chest thumping, fake surgical strikes and fake talk of Modis 56 inch chest. Indians keep talking but show nothing, if they want war pakistan has given a warning shot with Ababeel and trust me it has the top brass in India shaking at the thought of pakistan missile production. 

modi put ur money where your mouth is and start this cold start doctrine you talk about so much.

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## RealisticPAK

Erl said:


> Of course. Not so hard to find out mate
> I just asked about it's warhead's features. Is it thermonuclear warhead?


No brother, Ababeel is kind of a vehicle, a nuclear/conventional device can be mounted on it's tip, fired and there you go to destroy a few cities. Thermonuclear is nuclear bomb, I think Pakistan does not have any thermonuclear weapons.

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## CriticalThought

Immanuel said:


> Again why do you isolate the S-400 by itself, it is but a part of the layer of defence, your fighters, cruise missiles won't get past the hordes of Akash SAMs, Spyder SAM (of which we have already deployed hundreds of missiles) and upcoming Barak-8/MR-SAM. On top we also have the AAD and PAD. What makes you think we or any of our systems will be overloaded?. Matter of fact we train regularly with over 50-70 aircraft deployed in the air. Also with each S-400 fire unit having it's own radar element and everything being channeled in real time to the the various Integrated Air Command Centres, we have more than enough capability to sustain high intensity ops. The S-400 will have clear target list and it will focus it's efforts on those targets. S-400 will mostly focus it's efforts on long range AWACS, transports, tankers, bombers, long range cruise missiles when detected early on, ballistic missiles, tactical missiles.
> 
> Why will we fly too many jets? We will at best dedicate 2 or at worst 3 air commands worth of air assets towards a war with Pak.



Thank you for making PAF's job easier. But let's not side track the discussion. Those systems you have referred to, let's take a look at them:

Akash (missile)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akash_(missile)
Akash is a surface-to-air missile with an intercept range of 30 km.

SPYDER
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPYDER
As a short range air defence system, the SPYDER-SR has a short range of interception. The maximum altitude of interception is 9 km and the maximum range of interception is 15 km.[32] The SPYDER-MR has a greater operation range of 35 km and an altitude engagement of 16 km due to the missiles being equipped with boosters.

Barak 8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barak_8
The missile has maximum speed of Mach 2 with a maximum operational range of 70 km,[5][14][15][16] which was later increased to 100 km.

You started your initial argument by saying your radars can impose a no-fly zone within Pakistan itself. When I showed you how we can overload your radar, you come back with a list of radars that are all short to medium range. None of these pose a serious threat to our missiles within Pakistan. The S-400 is your only bet if you want to supposedly destroy our missiles within the 'boost phase' as you have been claiming on the thread. And, I am copy pasting the list again, we can utilize all of the following within Pakistan to overload your system, plus your attack aircraft will be loading it as well. So you will be helping us in nullifying your advantage. Also remember that all of these are flying simultaneously, and they don't have to contain warheads or point to actual targets. They just need to fly.

1. Nasr, IF it is close enough.
2. Drones.
3. Fighter jets.
4. Cruise missiles, not pointed at any target to destroy, just flying from point A to point B.
5. Ballistic missiles (Shaheen etc.).
6. And finally Ababeel with MIRV capability that can launch decoys.

The S-400 is your ONLY defense that can take out the missiles in the initial phase, and we have just overloaded it. This allows many of our Shaheens and Ababeels to enter low orbit and then begin the re-entry at speeds of Mach 15+ at which point none of your systems can deal with it.

Your answer?

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

TooRave said:


> After getting tracked it can be intercepted during boost phase before separation of warheads..


What if we fire it from far west of Baluchistan ?

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## MilSpec

HRK said:


> & this is the most dangerous thing ..... as mush the difference in conventional capabilities b/w India & Pakistan will increase the dependency of Pakistan on non-conventional means & False Sense of security in India will also increase
> 
> Further the increase gap in conventional capabilities with false sense of security in India will present a situation which may induce the Indian political class for misadventure just for the INTERNAL POLITICAL GAINS, so South Asia is trapped in a viscous circle .....
> *
> Welcome to Hell* *you all *....


the difference I might point point out is India has never been a state hopping between psuedo-democracy and grandiose theocracy to embark on misadventures when it feels secure. When there is a false sense of security it is usually Pakistan that sets its course on misadventures, not India. After going Nuclear It was Pakistan that set upon the Kargil Misadventures, India did no such act either after 74 or 98. As far as internal political gains are concerned , one of the biggest political players actually in the region is the Pakistani Military which would seek to get in a conflict mode to consolidate it's power in the state just as it did post Kargil.

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## MilSpec

The Deterrent said:


> 1. Negative. Contrary to the popular belief, MIRV deployment begins during ascent after termination of boost phase.
> 2. True that the difference Ababeel brings to the table is only 3 times more RVs, however S-400's terminal exo/endo-atmospheric interception envelope can not intercept ballistic targets with speeds over 4800m/s (~Mach 15).


Was the RV tested and all three warheads tracked?

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## PaklovesTurkiye

faithfulguy said:


> How many MIRV was conducted with this test..



I m not confirmed but may be 3...



P4K1ST4N said:


> Just notice differences between *Liquid* and *Solid Propellants*. You will get the answer.
> 
> => RS-28 Sarmat *"Satan 2"* or *"Satan 1"* is a Russian *liquid-fueled* Ballistic missile.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> => *LGM-30 Minuteman III* is American *Solid-Propellant* Ballistic missile with_ "3 warheads"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> => Now Pakistan's *Ghauri family* of ballistic missiles,* Liquid-fueled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> => Pakistan's *Shaheen Family,* *Solid-propellant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> => Finally *Ababeel Family,* first 2 stages *Solid-propellant. *(multiple warheads)
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *



So it means liquid fuel missiles are more hard to detect/track compared to solid fuel...???


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## Fenrir

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> So it means liquid fuel missiles are more hard to detect/track compared to solid fuel...???



Easier actually. Liquid fueled missiles can't be transported in a ready-to-fire configuration like a Topol could:





Liquid fueled missiles require time to be fueled, time where they are immobile surrounded by vulnerable, flammable trucks, tankers and plumping:





They haven't really changed since the V-2. Still requiring a gantry or scaffold, fueling trucks... it takes a lot of time and the missile doesn't move while being fueled. Liquid fueled missiles are considered more vulnerable to attack and give a defender more time to react. Notice the amount of "stuff" this Chinese DF-5 requires for launch?

_One of the limitations of the missile is that it takes between 30 and 60 minutes to fuel._






30 to 60 minutes is more then enough time for a defender to locate the missile and take preventative actions including electronic warfare to disrupt targeting and command and control nodes or jam the missile's control and guidance systems, kinetic support or positioning ABM assets to mitigate the risk posed by the missile. That's a limitation all liquid fueled missiles share. They take too long to ready.

By comparison, solid fueled missiles fire like this:










Taking almost no time to setup and because they are stored ready-to-launch, take almost no time to be fired either. Once launched the truck doesn't need to be dismantled like a liquid fueled missiles launch pad, it scoots away to rearm.

Sure they make a lot of smoke which makes them noticeable, but they're far more survivable then a lumbering liquid fueled missile that must sit on its launched pad waiting to be fueled for up to an hour and they afford a defender less time to react.

Solid fuels are also safer to store and transport, where liquid fuels have had a tendency to explode If handled improperly.

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## Dazzler



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## HRK

In the next fifteen years Pakistan will continue to meet all challenges in the defence of the motherland. One *may see *great progress in* the *_*manufacture of most sophisticated submarines capable of ensuring Pakistan’s second strike capability*. In addition to these achievements big strides are expected in the conquest of space. *The design technology of satellites for different applications has already been achieved and demonstrated. More satellites are expected to be launched in the coming years. With the acquisition of capability of our own satellite launch systems, our country would become a full-fledged power in space technology.*_

http://hilal.gov.pk/index.php/layouts/item/2496-pakistan-by-2030?tmpl=component&print=1


=================



MilSpec said:


> the difference I might point point out is India has never been a state hopping between psuedo-democracy and grandiose theocracy to embark on misadventures when it feels secure.



Sir plz never speak big words .... Your country is passing form the the very same phase .... RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED NEO NATIONALISM .... you people will witness its full effect after some time but will realize its immediate effect 'soon'



MilSpec said:


> When there is a false sense of security it is usually Pakistan that sets its course on misadventures, not India. After going Nuclear It was Pakistan that set upon the Kargil Misadventures, India did no such act either after 74 or 98.



& India adventure in 1971 *just after the Indo-Russian agreement* .... what was that ... History of your country have no such events ...??

just to remind you Kargil was with us till 1971 which India capture it in that year, secondly Kargil was planed as a local level operation not as a full-fledged war ....

Thirdly most important lesson of the* Kargil episode is that you can not judge the reaction of your opponent before time *a miscalculation at the time planing of Kargil operation about the reaction of India bring both state at the verge of war this also indicate the BIGGEST mutual weakness of India & Pakistan as NUCLEAR STATE that both countries don't haven *any agreed ESCALATION LADDER* so there is no guarantee that which country will take what measure at the time of crises.

& Lastly do you think Kargil was a right incident (*crossing the frontiers*) at right time (*after the nuclearization of South Asia*) if not then it there any mechanism or guarantee that no such event form both side will occur again ....???

*If India can move its Navy in response to a local level operation of Kargil, then why the Indians think Pakistan will not respond with ALL THE RESOURCES AT ITS DISPOSAL .... *



MilSpec said:


> As far as internal political gains are concerned , one of the biggest political players actually in the region is the Pakistani Military which would seek to get in a conflict mode to consolidate it's power in the state just as it did post Kargil.



Usual Indian rhetoric .... ?? have you put some thought to it .... ???

Pakistan Military even at time when it rule Pakistan always engage India with Dialogues, secondly its does not require India as enemy for its existence particularly after 1979 it have many option.... think yourself

BTW should quote anti Pakistan speeches of Indian politicians at the time of elections ....??
Who is required to go to General public after every 5 years ... politicians or some institution ...???
Who need JOB SECURITY ... politicians or some institution ...???
Who is required to prove themselves PATRIOT in front of general public ... politicians or some institution ...??

Biggest of all

*POLITICIANS OF WHICH COUNTRY ARE SELLING THE DREAMS OF WORLD POWER .... WITH HALF POPULATION IN POVERTY .... INDIA OR PAKISTAN ... ??

So who has more chances of failure INDIAN POLITICIAN or PAKISTANI MILITARY ....???*

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## newb3e

Srinivas said:


> The missile will be test fired from Pakistani territory which is roughly 200 KM from Indian border. Indian radars can pick up the missile during launch phase and hit the missile during its course.
> 
> The Green pine radars can pick up even small objects like foot ball that fly 100's of km away.
> 
> This missile cannot be a shield to implement the left over agenda after partition for pakistan.



Wow i am really scared now!


----------



## The Deterrent

Bratva said:


> There are rumour flyings Pakistan going to test *4000 KM Missile.*
> 
> @Ghareeb_Da_Baal said news coming in media, next month new version of *Shaheen- X* would be tested.
> 
> @The Deterrent @HRK


BS. Similar rumors are heard every time.

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## nahmed69

*India Already Has a Strong Net to Catch the New Pak Bird 'Ababeel*


Fancy headline.......on news18


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## The Deterrent

@Srinivas @ksama @Immanuel
You're only belittling yourselves, kindly explore the subject first before speculating. If you can't, ask your senior and knowledgeable countrymen to debate with technical arguments. 



MilSpec said:


> Was the RV tested and all three warheads tracked?



As I said here:


> Going by the limits of the NAVAREA warning, MIRVs would have been deployed as MRVs, in this test. Besides, since this was the first test of the system, it was flown on a much lofted trajectory and much lesser ranger (~1100km), and the focus was on validating performance of all 3 stages and successful ejection of MIRVs.


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ababeel-ssm-pakistan-gains-mirv-technology.474136/page-63#ixzz4WnAydsG9

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## Srinivas

The Deterrent said:


> @Srinivas @ksama @Immanuel
> You're only belittling yourselves, kindly explore the subject first before speculating. If you can't, ask your senior and knowledgeable countrymen to debate with technical arguments.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said here:
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ababeel-ssm-pakistan-gains-mirv-technology.474136/page-63#ixzz4WnAydsG9



First you need to counter my argument dude!

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## The Deterrent

Srinivas said:


> First you need to counter my argument dude!


Okay, since you're a senior member, I'm going to entertain you. Now, what was your argument again?


----------



## TankMan

TooRave said:


> Exactly..
> Also it takes time to change different trajectories..For a nearest country like Pakistan it can be destroyed even before releasing first warhead..





Srinivas said:


> These days there are technologies which can destroy the missile in the enemy territory itself. The missile has to travel some time to cross the border. Mean time there is enough time for ABM systems.
> 
> The MIRV capability comes handy once the missile nears the target.





Srinivas said:


>



Details vary between different systems, but here's how MIRVs in general work:




https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Minuteman_III_MIRV_path.svg

The Independent RVs would be released long before the interceptor missile reaches it.

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## YeBeWarned

The Deterrent said:


> BS. Similar rumors are heard every time.



The next Best thing would be HQ-9  
Any news on that brother ?

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## The Deterrent

Starlord said:


> The next Best thing would be HQ-9
> Any news on that brother ?


Nope, don't have authentic information about it.

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## YeBeWarned

The Deterrent said:


> Nope, don't have authentic information about it.



Ok, I like your Status , For Indians Winter is here since Babur 3 test


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## Basel

Immanuel said:


> With a combination of AAD, PAD, S-400, long range early detection, this missile whether MIRV capable or actually MIRVed (highly unlikely) can quite easily be shot down well in its boost phase itself. More so, India is getting S-400 with next gen 77N6 missiles which can tackle RVs and since India in phase one will deploy 5 Full scale regiments and have another 7 regiments under MII, we are looking at thousand of missiles being used for Defence against such missiles. Another fact is if such missiles are fired you can be sure, it will be raining Agni fire on Pak relentlessly, more so you have no defenses against it. Atleast we have several systems coming online that can cater to a variety of ballistic missile threats.



You forgot to mention how MIRVs are use to counter BMD, it is about the RVs what type are used.


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## GumNaam

ito said:


> Yes, this will compromise India's BMD, but I am sure India will find some solutions to this.


Even the u.s. hasn't been able to find an effective solution to MIRVs and that too, when have the luxury of distances on there side. Here, no one enjoys the luxury of distance. MAD is the best that india can hope for now.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

GumNaam said:


> Source?


 Orya M Jaan

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## !eon

ito said:


> Yes, this will compromise India's BMD, but I am sure India will find some solutions to this.


Leave it dear and chill, News is fake 
or if not fake, then must be bought from China

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## Basel

Mo12 said:


> why do some countries invest so heavily into BMD, when nations could just fire a MIRV then?



Even US is developing special MIRV interceptor missile because MIRV can go through their Current BMD how S-400 and AAD, PAD going to intercept 3-6 RVs deployed from 1 BM in which decoys will be deployed too.

If MIRV BM are that simple to intercept and useless then why China & Russia are developing it further???

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## GumNaam

Srinivas said:


> The missile will be test fired from Pakistani territory which is roughly 200 KM from Indian border. Indian radars can pick up the missile during launch phase and hit the missile during its course.
> 
> The Green pine radars can pick up even small objects like foot ball that fly 100's of km away.
> 
> This missile cannot be a shield to implement the left over agenda after partition for pakistan.


Yeah this is what the green pine radars will tell you!

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## Bubblegum Crisis

...

Would someone have an approximation of the length of the missile (Ababeel) compared to that of Shaheen-III ?

Thank you !


----------



## Cool_Soldier

Shaji Pappan said:


> Cold start is itself a deterrent..



Cold Start is not deterrent but an *evil thought* of invasion into Pakistan's territory.

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## Cool_Soldier

No doubt, current MIRV capable Ababeel neutralize Indian ABM and making India vulnerable against Pakistani Ballistic missile too. Second vulnerability is against our cruise missiles.
On the other hand, Pakistan also have no defene shield against Indian various types of missiles


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## GumNaam

Cool_Soldier said:


> No doubt, current MIRV capable Ababeel neutralize Indian ABM and making India vulnerable against Pakistani Ballistic missile too. Second vulnerability is against our cruise missiles.
> On the other hand, Pakistan also have no defene shield against Indian various types of missiles



to rephrase, we don't have "theatre" ballistic missile defense. We do you have area based ballistic missile defense thanks to the new SAMs that we've inducted. Having said that, we do need to pursue a THAAD like theatre ballistic missile defense system but our main deterrence needs to remain as the very intimidating MAD doctrine with a scary number of warheads. Let's face the facts; IT WORKS! Russia is more than capable of defeating THAAD and America is more than capable of defeating the S400/S500. It is the MAD doctrine that keeps them off of each other's throats! The aptly named "MAD" doctrine is heartless and ruthless. But that is why it works.

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## Taimoor Khan

Since Indian BMD aspirations are heavily dependent on Israeli and American input, it would be better to compare Ababeel with the original manufacturers then what India does or doesnt.

Someone mentioned about the radar capabilities of Russian S400 system and how it cannot detect anything travelling above mach 15, it was deduced that since Shaheen missiles systems are known to achieve much high speeds, S400 radar wont be able to intercept let alone detect Shaheen. Ababeel is definitely based on Shaheen series.

Would be interesting to dig into the Israeli Arrow system and its radar capabilities and how they fair against MIRV'ed Ababeel and Shaheen series.

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> =================
> 
> 
> 
> *POLITICIANS OF WHICH COUNTRY ARE SELLING THE DREAMS OF WORLD POWER .... WITH HALF POPULATION IN POVERTY .... INDIA OR PAKISTAN ... ??
> 
> So who has more chances of failure INDIAN POLITICIAN or PAKISTANI MILITARY ....???*


every country has first moved in to eradicate basic poverty and attain basic universal education before setting eyes beyond it national boarders, that includes china,
however, India is going it completely different, it argues that it cannot wait till its population has universal access to health and education

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## GumNaam

Taimoor Khan said:


> Since Indian BMD aspirations are heavily dependent on Israeli and American input, it would be better to compare Ababeel with the original manufacturers then what India does or doesnt.
> 
> Someone mentioned about the radar capabilities of Russian S400 system and how it cannot detect anything travelling above mach 15, it was deduced that since Shaheen missiles systems are known to achieve much high speeds, S400 radar wont be able to intercept let alone detect Shaheen. Ababeel is definitely based on Shaheen series.
> 
> Would be interesting to dig into the Israeli Arrow system and its radar capabilities and how they fair against MIRV'ed Ababeel and Shaheen series.


I'm fairly confident that the arrow system is probably worse than the S400 in detecting anything as fast as the Shaheen series. Otherwise india wouldn't be begging to buy the S400s from Russia.

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## Taimoor Khan

GumNaam said:


> I'm fairly confident that the arrow system is probably worse than the S400 in detecting anything as fast as the Shaheen series. Otherwise india wouldn't be begging to buy the S400s from Russia.



I am more interested to gauge the mood in the headquarters of Mossad and CIA then what these hanumans in east are thinking. 

Someone put a very detailed and lovely read about S400 radar capabilities . Something similiar with Isreali Arrow system and greenpine radars (which India is using as well) would be much appreciated. Sorry I am slacking atm .


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Mrc said:


> Theoratically ..yes. u have 90 seconfs to detect track and get an interceptor on target
> And target may be flying faster than interceptor


Sir, how did you come to this conclusion? 

If the US is placing multiple intercept missile on strategic location to to reduce the reaction and intercept time but can not practically destroy 80% of the test launches. 

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-missile-defense-failings/



The Deterrent said:


> @Srinivas @ksama @Immanuel
> You're only belittling yourselves, kindly explore the subject first before speculating. If you can't, ask your senior and knowledgeable countrymen to debate with technical arguments.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said here:
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ababeel-ssm-pakistan-gains-mirv-technology.474136/page-63#ixzz4WnAydsG9


Sir,
Does Pakistan require this missile to reach maximum altitude to launch the multiple warheads? If your answer is yes then it would be difficult to change its launch trajectory. 

As you have stated to reduce the range the trajectory was lofted. This could be because the payload was nil. With full payload things might be different. However this would not be to dramatic.


----------



## The Deterrent

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, Does Pakistan require this missile to reach maximum altitude to launch the multiple warheads? If your answer is yes then it would be difficult to change its launch trajectory.
> 
> As you have stated to reduce the range the trajectory was lofted. This could be because the payload was nil. With full payload things might be different. However this would not be to dramatic.


No, reaching max apogee is not a pre-requisite.

Again, since it was a test flight, a lofted trajectory must have been planned. How did you arrive at the conclusion of payload being nil? Trajectories can be varied with the same payload, it doesn't works like a hand-held slingshot.

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## Mrc

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, how did you come to this conclusion?
> 
> If the US is placing multiple intercept missile on strategic location to to reduce the reaction and intercept time but can not practically destroy 80% of the test launches.




Caz we dont have 12000 km between us... your reaction time is next to nothing....

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## DavidSling

Taimoor Khan said:


> I am more interested to gauge the mood in the headquarters of Mossad and CIA then what these hanumans in east are thinking.
> 
> Someone put a very detailed and lovely read about S400 radar capabilities . Something similiar with Isreali Arrow system and greenpine radars (which India is using as well) would be much appreciated. Sorry I am slacking atm .


https://defence.pk/threads/israel-d...uture-interceptors.408299/page-5#post-9141429


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## Taimoor Khan

DavidSling said:


> https://defence.pk/threads/israel-d...uture-interceptors.408299/page-5#post-9141429




I was asking for the specifications, not a test video. 

What is the max speed of incoming projectile its radar can detect?


----------



## GumNaam

Taimoor Khan said:


> I was asking for the specifications, not a test video.
> 
> What is the max speed of incoming projectile its radar can detect?


ditto


----------



## Mentee

JOEY TRIBIANI said:


> What if we fire it from far west of Baluchistan ?


No you can't  How could you disrupt the whole Indian script ? When delivering a nuke play by the Indian rules of engagement  @Khafee @war&peace @Djinn @The Sandman @Hell hound

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## DavidSling

Taimoor Khan said:


> I was asking for the specifications, not a test video.
> 
> What is the max speed of incoming projectile its radar can detect?


The information regarding the system is mostly classified, but there's more info in the first page of the thread


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## GumNaam

TooRave said:


> After getting tracked it can be intercepted during boost phase before separation of warheads..


 you have 10 seconds in the boost phase, TOPS! Good luck wid dat strategy!

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## Mentee

GumNaam said:


> Yeah this is what the green pine radars will tell you!
> View attachment 371842


Royally


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## Alok Arya

Actually It is great achievement for you to test mivr etcetc . But how it dismis the theory of cold start , S400 and BMD ?
Pakistan have nukes and missile at stone throwing distance . Is you believe seriously that Indian BMD is degined to allow the missile of Pakistan to reach in terminal phase to launch warheads . LRTR which India develop from proved greenpie technology have a range of 1400 km and it is integrated with BMD successfully. It have capacity to intercept any Pakistany missile just after launch. Now big news is that India not stop at LRTR a new radar of 2000 km range with GaN module is ready and it integration to BMD underway . So Indian are very aware of future and degine it's BMD accordingly . So this MIRV going to bring noting as far as BMD concerned . BMD take care of pakistany missile as usual just after launch before terminal phase .
Now your Babur 3 sub launch , very simple we already have Barak 8 with MFSTAR radar land based version . What happen after Babur launch we neutralise it with Barak 8 and neutralise sub by P 8 sub hunter killer .
S400 , s400 is not BMD it is for cm , fighter jets etc etc and remain relevant as usual. Your mirv not going to change it .
Cold start
You had missile, nuke , etc etc each and every thing when India return your aggression at border in a way that your dgmo have to make a call and now even ceasefire violation reduce to minimum . India has very clear cut police of massive retaliation. If you throw ten missile with mirv calculating to suppose 100 warheads we Indian will simply return 1000 missile without a delay . You will fire a bullet we will fire handgrande . Cold start is same retaliation/ offensive strategy. It is very simple what you do you get more in return . Now with cold start India going to prove your nuclear bluff . It will mirror your actual face to you . And this mirv , true or fake , not going to change this . India very clear in his mind and started to move on path .

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## Blue Marlin

DavidSling said:


> The information regarding the system is mostly classified, but there's more info in the first page of the thread


how long is the missile and how much does it weigh?


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## Taimoor Khan

DavidSling said:


> The information regarding the system is mostly classified, but there's more info in the first page of the thread



ok, then I guess we will find out, god forbid, in real life  .


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## django

Mrc said:


> Yeah prospects of cold start just got colder






Shaji Pappan said:


> Here you need high yield thermonuclear miniaturized payloads..


Something H!ndians can only dream of!



hacker J said:


> Hi @Windjammer @Areesh @Devil Soul
> can you please have a look at 0:05 to 0:08 look closely a bird comes close to the missile and then flies away from it, the bird should have been minuscule in comparison to missile but the bird look quit large, can you explain or rope in any expert to ? I think it might be camera effect but its a little weird ASSUMING THE MISSILE TO BE 9-10 METERS LONG
> 
> 
> 
> NOT TROLLING


If the bird is closer to the camera it will look larger than it is actually is relative to the missile......we are not in the business of bullshitting like a certain "SIR-JI-CAL" strike.Kudos


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

GumNaam said:


> to rephrase, we don't have "theatre" ballistic missile defense. We do you have area based ballistic missile defense thanks to the new SAMs that we've inducted. Having said that, we do need to pursue a THAAD like theatre ballistic missile defense system but our main deterrence needs to remain as the very intimidating MAD doctrine with a scary number of warheads. Let's face the facts; IT WORKS! Russia is more than capable of defeating THAAD and America is more than capable of defeating the S400/S500. It is the MAD doctrine that keeps them off of each other's throats! The aptly named "MAD" doctrine is heartless and ruthless. But that is why it works.


Especially with _Ehl-i Dunya_. At the end of the day the entire game is played within the human mindset which is subjected to all sorts of influences. Folks who have been driven to _Delalet_, by their own will, have none other than _Iblis_ as their principal friend, philosopher and guide. Love for _Hayat-ud Dunya_ is the fundamental bedrock, and MAD hits it directly. The rest are all details...

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## GumNaam

HAKIKAT said:


> Especially with _Ehl-i Dunya_. At the end of the day the entire game is played within the human mindset which is subjected to all sorts of influences. Folks who have been driven to _Delalet_, by their own will, have none other than _Iblis_ as their principal friend, philosopher and guide. Love for _Hayat-ud Dunya_ is the fundamental bedrock, and MAD hits it directly. The rest are all details...


Well said Brother.

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## syed_yusuf

Alok Arya said:


> Actually It is great achievement for you to test mivr etcetc . But how it dismis the theory of cold start , S400 and BMD ?
> Pakistan have nukes and missile at stone throwing distance . Is you believe seriously that Indian BMD is degined to allow the missile of Pakistan to reach in terminal phase to launch warheads . LRTR which India develop from proved greenpie technology have a range of 1400 km and it is integrated with BMD successfully. It have capacity to intercept any Pakistany missile just after launch. Now big news is that India not stop at LRTR a new radar of 2000 km range with GaN module is ready and it integration to BMD underway . So Indian are very aware of future and degine it's BMD accordingly . So this MIRV going to bring noting as far as BMD concerned . BMD take care of pakistany missile as usual just after launch before terminal phase .
> Now your Babur 3 sub launch , very simple we already have Barak 8 with MFSTAR radar land based version . What happen after Babur launch we neutralise it with Barak 8 and neutralise sub by P 8 sub hunter killer .
> S400 , s400 is not BMD it is for cm , fighter jets etc etc and remain relevant as usual. Your mirv not going to change it .
> Cold start
> You had missile, nuke , etc etc each and every thing when India return your aggression at border in a way that your dgmo have to make a call and now even ceasefire violation reduce to minimum . India has very clear cut police of massive retaliation. If you throw ten missile with mirv calculating to suppose 100 warheads we Indian will simply return 1000 missile without a delay . You will fire a bullet we will fire handgrande . Cold start is same retaliation/ offensive strategy. It is very simple what you do you get more in return . Now with cold start India going to prove your nuclear bluff . It will mirror your actual face to you . And this mirv , true or fake , not going to change this . India very clear in his mind and started to move on path .




I usually don't reply to your posts, 

This is very reason why Pakistan is creating multiple levels of nuclear and non nuclear layers of offence against India to make it very painful for India to do any misadventure. India has taken a very aggressive stand against Pakistan since day one [please do not start the terrorism debate here]. Even before militant uprising and militant attacks in india [think 50's, 60's and 70's], she had always try to close open spaces for Pakistan. 

All that you see now is not to invade india but keep enemy away from the shore. 

No matter what india try to do to undermine Pakistan, ....Pakistan will up the ante few notches to keep india away. i am not sure how long this game will continue but i see it going on my entire life. Once day india will have to decide, like any other major country in the world,to solve issues in a win-win situation. otherwise, it is india that will be paying the price. had india solved all of its issues with Pakistan in a win-win situation, china would have been cornered long time ago. but no, indian babus are not going to live in peace.

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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

After successfully testing  Babur-3 which is submarine-launched cruise missile
Pakistan Successfully conducted test of a MIRV Missile system(Ababeel Missile).
Simple thing to understand is these kind of Missile can't be defended by any known missile defense system.The Ababeel missile can evade enemy radar and deliver multiple precisely targeted warheads.This technology is only possessed by USA, Russia, China and Now Pakistan. Finally Pakistan is moving in a better direction even after so much of corruption and all. I'm so delighted to see the progress in Pakistan because sooner or later i'll also be a part of Pakistan Armed Forces. I'm proud of myself for being a Pakistani citizen and born here in this country. The most important thing is that Pakistan's Strategic Forces are shining side by side with the Pakistan's Armed Forces and it is the most important part. Well for all those are reading this i want to congratulate you all because our own ISI stood number 1 in 2016, followed by the CIA of America. The least funded Intelligence Agency stood the 1st in the World, that is also something to cheer about, So everything is on the right path. See this video below. Pakistan Zindaahbaad 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154587592822663





*Babur 3:*










*Ababeebl:






*

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## Ultima Thule

Maithil Brahmin said:


> Maybe Russian's will create something called S-600 which will have laser beam to destroy MIRV. We will buy it. No problem.


what is S-600, their is no S-600 in development latest version is S-500 in development


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## MilSpec

HRK said:


> =================
> 
> 
> 
> Sir plz never speak big words .... Your country is passing form the the very same phase .... RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED NEO NATIONALISM .... you people will witness its full effect after some time but will realize its immediate effect 'soon'


According to your tinted glasses as you have never known anything other than religious theocracy. Thus whatever you look at , all you can focus on is the religion and nationalism. Anti incumbency and rhetorical noises and anti corruption issues that causes a change in government causes a political change, but all you can focus on is religion, but then again i do sympathize with the position. being a nation that is progeny of AIML, all you want to focus on is the other fringe on the opposite side of the spectrum, ignoring the successful democratic rule and governance in accordance to a sacrosanct constitution since the inception of the republic.




HRK said:


> & India adventure in 1971 *just after the Indo-Russian agreement* .... what was that ... History of your country have no such events ...??


So 1971's was was based on Indo-Russian agreement? or was the root cause lying somewhere else. The statement is so ludicrous that it's not even worth discussion, but if you want we can touch on this later.



HRK said:


> just to remind you Kargil was with us till 1971 which India capture it in that year, secondly Kargil was planed as a local level operation not as a full-fledged war ....


So was op Gibraltor, and brasstacks in 65, how did that work out for you. I hope you don't want to hear from your military generals about state of planning and preparations that you brass is quite famous for. In other words your establishment quite terrible at planning, managing and containing conflicts in any stage irrespective of it's detterence levels vis-a-vis India. 



HRK said:


> Thirdly most important lesson of the* Kargil episode is that you can not judge the reaction of your opponent before time *a miscalculation at the time planing of Kargil operation about the reaction of India bring both state at the verge of war this also indicate the BIGGEST mutual weakness of India & Pakistan as NUCLEAR STATE that both countries don't haven *any agreed ESCALATION LADDER* so there is no guarantee that which country will take what measure at the time of crises.



Siachin was initiated by Indian forces, did it snowball into a full scale war? The imprtant lesson than neither you or your military is aware of strategic planning, where you weigh all of the outcomes of your action, and plan for the wort possible outcome. That is how Risk Management in all aspects i handled all over. Like for example this missile, we will consider it as a fully functional MIRV nuclear asset deployed against all strategic targets in India and add that to our threat perception. 



HRK said:


> & Lastly do you think Kargil was a right incident (*crossing the frontiers*) at right time (*after the nuclearization of South Asia*) if not then it there any mechanism or guarantee that no such event form both side will occur again ....???


Especially when one of the party is prone to whims and fancies of dictatorial regime every couple of decades, there is no judging what it can do.



HRK said:


> *If India can move its Navy in response to a local level operation of Kargil, then why the Indians think Pakistan will not respond with ALL THE RESOURCES AT ITS DISPOSAL .... *


* 

When have I stated that Pakistan will no respond with all resources at it's disposal. please show me.*



HRK said:


> Usual Indian rhetoric .... ?? have you put some thought to it .... ???
> 
> Pakistan Military even at time when it rule Pakistan always engage India with Dialogues, secondly its does not require India as enemy for its existence particularly after 1979 it have many option.... think yourself



A military that's sole objective is minimum detterence against India, whose entire orientation is based on India, does not require India. Sound odd but sure your military your choice. Count the number of years of democratice rule vs military rule in Pakistan you will gt the answer of political relevance of your military.



HRK said:


> BTW should quote anti Pakistan speeches of Indian politicians at the time of elections ....??
> Who is required to go to General public after every 5 years ... politicians or some institution ...???


Yes please do quote the Anti-Pakistan Speeches of Elected representatives that deal with Foreign affairs. What they are stating is the general feeling in India. A nation that since it's existence has taken pride in killing Indian civilians via it's proxies right from will have public backlash in India. It's part of national identity.



HRK said:


> Who need JOB SECURITY ... politicians or some institution ...???
> Who is required to prove themselves PATRIOT in front of general public ... politicians or some institution ...??



How is that relevant, when your military junta doesn't need a mandate. It can march it's div in your airports and capital and dethrone your political leader in a day as demonstrated by Musharraf. When he ousted nawz sharif, you may see it as right or wrong, that;s up to you. What he really did was oust the Public Mandate of 200 million pakistanis. It doesn't need prove anything to anyone, all it needs is consolidation of it's power and your constitution till very recently provided such avenue to it. 



HRK said:


> Biggest of all
> 
> *POLITICIANS OF WHICH COUNTRY ARE SELLING THE DREAMS OF WORLD POWER .... WITH HALF POPULATION IN POVERTY .... INDIA OR PAKISTAN ... ??
> 
> So who has more chances of failure INDIAN POLITICIAN or PAKISTANI MILITARY ....???*



From the track record it is Pakistani Politicans? just answer how many years of Democratic rule? lol

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## HRK

MilSpec said:


> *According to your tinted glasses as you have never known anything other than religious theocracy.* Thus whatever you look at , all you can focus on is the religion and nationalism. Anti incumbency and rhetorical noises and anti corruption issues that causes a change in government causes a political change, but all you can focus on is religion, but then again i do sympathize with the position. *being a nation that is progeny of AIML, all you want to focus on is the other fringe on the opposite side of the spectrum, ignoring the successful democratic rule and governance in accordance to a sacrosanct constitution since the inception of the republic.*
> 
> So 1971's was was based on Indo-Russian agreement? or was the root cause lying somewhere else. The statement is so ludicrous that it's not even worth discussion, but if you want we can touch on this later.
> 
> So was op Gibraltor, and brasstacks in 65, how did that work out for you. I hope you don't want to hear from your military generals about state of planning and preparations that you brass is quite famous for. In other words your establishment quite terrible at planning, managing and containing conflicts in any stage irrespective of it's detterence levels vis-a-vis India.
> 
> Siachin was initiated by Indian forces, did it snowball into a full scale war? The imprtant lesson than neither you or your military is aware of strategic planning, where you weigh all of the outcomes of your action, and plan for the wort possible outcome. That is how Risk Management in all aspects i handled all over. Like for example this missile, we will consider it as a fully functional MIRV nuclear asset deployed against all strategic targets in India and add that to our threat perception.
> 
> Especially when one of the party is prone to whims and fancies of dictatorial regime every couple of decades, there is no judging what it can do.
> *
> 
> When have I stated that Pakistan will no respond with all resources at it's disposal. please show me.*
> 
> 
> A military that's sole objective is minimum detterence against India, whose entire orientation is based on India, does not require India. Sound odd but sure your military your choice. Count the number of years of democratice rule vs military rule in Pakistan you will gt the answer of political relevance of your military.
> 
> 
> Yes please do quote the Anti-Pakistan Speeches of Elected representatives that deal with Foreign affairs. What they are stating is the general feeling in India. A nation that since it's existence has taken pride in killing Indian civilians via it's proxies right from will have public backlash in India. It's part of national identity.
> 
> 
> 
> How is that relevant, when your military junta doesn't need a mandate. It can march it's div in your airports and capital and dethrone your political leader in a day as demonstrated by Musharraf. When he ousted nawz sharif, you may see it as right or wrong, that;s up to you. What he really did was oust the Public Mandate of 200 million pakistanis. It doesn't need prove anything to anyone, all it needs is consolidation of it's power and your constitution till very recently provided such avenue to it.
> 
> 
> 
> From the track record it is Pakistani Politicans? just answer how many years of Democratic rule? lol



...... 

that the best you have my dear ..... come on plz that's all ....



> *What they are stating is the general feeling in India.*



it always fun to make other speak what you want them to speak .... should I say anything after this ... nah ... not a single word ....



> Siachin was initiated by Indian forces, did it snowball into a full scale war?



BTW just for the sake of record at the time of Siachen the mighty USSR & the ally of "Great INDIA" was at our western borders .... & now you are purposing that we should have entered in two front war at that time ... ??

Remind me I read somewhere someone wrote ....


> The imprtant lesson than neither you or your military is aware of strategic planning, where you weigh all of the outcomes of your action, and plan for the wort possible outcome. *That is how Risk Management in all aspects i handled all over.*



enough for Risk Management ....

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## Alok Arya

syed_yusuf said:


> I usually don't reply to your posts,
> 
> This is very reason why Pakistan is creating multiple levels of nuclear and non nuclear layers of offence against India to make it very painful for India to do any misadventure. India has taken a very aggressive stand against Pakistan since day one [please do not start the terrorism debate here]. Even before militant uprising and militant attacks in india [think 50's, 60's and 70's], she had always try to close open spaces for Pakistan.
> 
> All that you see now is not to invade india but keep enemy away from the shore.
> 
> No matter what india try to do to undermine Pakistan, ....Pakistan will up the ante few notches to keep india away. i am not sure how long this game will continue but i see it going on my entire life. Once day india will have to decide, like any other major country in the world,to solve issues in a win-win situation. otherwise, it is india that will be paying the price. had india solved all of its issues with Pakistan in a win-win situation, china would have been cornered long time ago. but no, indian babus are not going to live in peace.


Actually It is perception . You have your and we have our . You said it is India which started all wars , all time offensive to Pakistan, we Indian perceive that culprit is Pakistan . Now you have to understand that equation in India has changed and also in world . Now it is time of economic slowdown of china and filling the gap by India . And I am saying this as neighbors that China not going to help you in war . Remember Kargil , 1971 . Actually China is using Pakistan for its strategic aims nothing else . If Pakistan is layering up offence for India , what you expect from India . Are we sitting idle. We are doing same in much more larger horizon . Few example I want to give you
1. Shortly we make pinaka mbrl guided and increase its range to 75 km next plan is increasing its range first to 120 km than to 200 km . Think how cheap it would be to mass produce it and your many imp cities come in its range . Very cheap very destructive and accurate .
2. We made Prahar short range canesterised missile , mass produced it and diployed on western border . As it is solid fuel and canesterised it require no maitanace and quick on need . It range 150 to 250 km having a cep of few meter .
3. We are making Agni 1 P . Range 250 to 700 km . Again solid fueled canesterised. Again cheap , maintenance free and quick on need .

What is all this . Dear we are also piling offence against you . War is not a solution but what we can do . We have to prepare for war and India need to prepare for 2 and 1/2 front war . And India paid heavy price for war , terrorism but Pakistan had paid its territory . No body know future but our today make our future . If we are going to pay the price we ensure a heavy penalty on enemy . What we can do else .


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## MilSpec

HRK said:


> ......
> that the best you have my dear ..... come on plz that's all ....


it's just an observation, by no means the best, just my plain observation. Everything you mentioned about india is either through a prism of religion or poverty, it shows you position and that's what I have pointed. 



HRK said:


> it always fun to make other speak what you want them to speak .... should I say anything after this ... nah ... not a single word ....


It's even more fun to have an honest conversation, you should try it. 


HRK said:


> BTW just for the sake of record at the time of Siachen the mighty USSR & the ally of "Great INDIA" was at our western borders .... & now you are purposing that we should have entered in two front war at that time ... ??
> Remind me I read somewhere someone wrote ....
> enough for Risk Management ....


That was your choice to be in certain for-profit alignments, as I said you can cherry pick and try to drive your points home, to show you are right. The discussion from the outset on your side was to demean India, as a state which will do something reckless because of it's false sense of security. But when called out on it it's backflips after backflips to bring in everything from religion to russia. 

So ok. India based on it's false sense of security will cause Nuclear holocaust in south asia. that is your claim right. If your administration too thinks so then for the sake of humanity it should definitely so something about such an immature childish religious nutcases in India, right?

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## DavidSling

Blue Marlin said:


> how long is the missile and how much does it weigh?


*Arrow 3 (Israel)*

Home
Defense Systems
Non-U.S. Systems
Arrow 3 (Israel)
Systems: Non-U.S. Systems







Arrow 3, an upgraded version of Israel’s Arrow 2, is a U.S.-Israeli system designed to intercept Tactical Ballistic Missiles (TBMs).
1) This system, developed in response to growing capabilities by regional adversaries such as Iran, operates at a higher altitude and greater range than currently fielded defense systems.
2) Arrow 3 is capable of exo-atmospheric intercepts well beyond the range of its predecessor and provides the necessary upper tier to Israel’s multilayer defense apparatus, with a reported range of up to 2,400 km.

3) Arrow 3 will consist of a two-stage interceptor that will destroy incoming ballistic missiles and ICBMs with an exo-atmospheric kill vehicle that will also be to maneuver midair to intercept its target. The interceptor is designed to operate in space, inciting speculation that Arrow 3 could be used as an anti-satellite weapon

*Arrow 3 Development, Testing, and Fielding*
4) Arrow 3 was developed by Israel Aerospace Industries and Boeing. The system includes new communications, guidance, and sensor systems. However, it is designed to be fully interoperable with the Arrow 2 system and uses some of the same resources as that system, including launchers and battle management centers

5) After failing its first live intercept test in December 2014, Arrow 3 underwent a number of hardware and software updates. It has since completed a number of successful tests, including the first successful engagement of a ballistic missile target with the Arrow 3 interceptor on December 10, 2015.
6) This intercept was conducted in the exo-atmosphere and was designed to test how well the system could “detect, identify, track and then discriminate real from decoy targets traveling quickly through space.”
7) A number of tests were conducted in 2016 to ensure capability before the system was deemed operational.
8) Arrow 3 completed development and was inducted into the Israeli Air Force on January 18, 2017.

*U.S. Contributions*
9) The United States agreed to co-develop the Arrow 3 system with Israel in 2008, despite urgings by the U.S. Department of Defense for Israel to procure the THAAD system instead.
10) The United States and Israel deepened their cooperation on Arrow 3 in July 2010 when they signed a bilateral agreement furthering ties in developing and producing the system.
11) Funding for the Arrow 3 system has been authorized by Congress since FY2008 and, between FY2008 and FY2015, the United States contributed $450M to the system. The FY16 NDAA authorized up to $15M for “the Arrow 3 Upper Tier Interceptor Program” and a further $19.5M for “Israeli Cooperative Programs” relating to Arrow 3.

*SOURCES*

Jeremy M. Sharp, “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” _Congressional Research Service_, June 10, 2015, https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf, 12. ↩
“Arrow Weapon System (AWS),” _IHS Jane’s Land Warfare Platforms: Artillery and Air Defence 2012-13_, ed. Christopher F. Foss and James C. O’Halloran (United Kingdom: IHS, 2013), 692-695. ↩
Jeremy M. Sharp, “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” _Congressional Research Service_, 12 ↩
“Arrow Weapon System (AWS),” _IHS Jane’s Land Warfare Platforms: Artillery and Air Defence 2012-13_, 692-695 & Yiftah Shapir, “Another Layer of Defense: The Arrow-3 Test,” _The Institute for National Security Studies_, INSS Insight No. 407, February 27, 2013. ↩
Dan Williams, “Israel’s Arrow 3 missile shield fails interception test: sources,” _Reuters_, December 16, 2014, http://www.reuters.com/article/us-arms-israel-arrow-idUSKBN0JU1DK20141216 & Missile Defense Agency, “IMDO and MDA Successfully Complete First Arrow-3 Ballistic Missile Defense Engagement,” December 10, 2015, https://www.mda.mil/news/15news0010.html. ↩
Barbara Opall-Rome, “US-Israel Arrow-3 Intercepts Target in Space,” _Defense News_, December 10, 2015, http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ael-arrow-3-intercepts-target-space/77087084/. ↩
Dan Williams, “Israel says ‘David’s Sling’ missile shield to be deployed in 2016,” _Reuters_, December 21, 2015, http://www.reuters.com/article/us-arms-israel-davidsling-idUSKBN0U410P20151221 & Missile Defense Agency, “IMDO and MDA Successfully Complete First Arrow-3 Ballistic Missile Defense Engagement.” ↩
“Israel Expands Missile Defense System With New Interceptor,” _The Washington Post_, January 18, 2017, https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...10fe486791c_story.html?utm_term=.13d0e78b8045. ↩
Jeremy M. Sharp, “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,”_ Congressional Research Service_, 12 ↩
Ibid. ↩
_National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2016_, Pub. L. No. 114-92, 129 Stat. 1140-1142 (2015). ↩
https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/arrow-3/

*ELM-2080*

*

*Send
questions
ELM-2080 Brochure

Youtube Videos
ELM-2080

*ELM-2080 - Green Pine Radar System*

*General*

The Green Pine Radar Systems, ELM-2080("Green Pine") and ELM-2080S ("Great Pine"), are a family of transportable, ground-based radar systems, designed to autonomously detect and simultaneously track dozens of Tactical Ballistic Missiles (TBMs) from long ranges, under all weather conditions and in the presence of undesired signals. The modular Active Electronically Steering Array (AESA) technology implemented in the radar includes thousands of transmit/receive modules that provide high redundancy, graceful degradation, high reliability and high availability. The original ELM-2080 Green Pine Radar and its more advanced successor, the ELM-2080S Super Green Pine Radar, use a similar deployment infrastructure as well as a similar integrated logistic support. This allows the customer to optimally tailor anti- TBM solutions with a mix of Green Pine Radar systems, according to specific operational requirements. Operational in the Israel Air Force as part of the Arrow Weapon System, Green Pine Radar Systems enhance the country’s air defense and early-warning capabilities. The addition of Green Pine radars improves the performance of any ballistic missile defense System.



*Features*


Autonomous long range detection and acquisition of TBMs
Digital AESA technology
Multi-mode operation
Simultaneous tracking of dozens of TBMs
Wide and flexible spatial coverage
Discrimination between TBMs and other target types
Satellite detection and tracking
Accurate impact and launch point estimation
Interoperability with complementary Air Defense Systems
Data recording and analysis capabilities
Transportable configuration
Field proven
http://www.iai.co.il/2013/33785-27136-en/ELTA.aspx

*Army Navy/Transportable Radar Surveillance (AN/TPY-2) - U.S radar facility in the Israeli negev*

Countering the Growing Ballistic Missile Threat
According to public U.S. intelligence estimates, there are more than 6,300 ballistic missiles outside of U.S., NATO, Russian and Chinese control, with that number expected to grow to almost 8,000 by 2020. Rogue regimes are developing nuclear, chemical and/or biological warheads, while at the same time making their missiles more flexible, mobile, survivable, reliable and accurate. As rogue regimes proliferate and improve their weapons 1, the men and women charged with protecting the U.S., our warfighters, allies and partners will need proven, affordable, reliable systems that can keep pace with the growing threat.

The first step in defeating a ballistic missile that has been fired is “seeing” it. And that’s where Raytheon’s AN/TPY-2 X-Band radar comes in. A critical element in the Ballistic Missile Defense System, AN/TPY-2 continually searches the sky for ballistic missiles. Once it detects a missile, it acquires it, tracks it, and uses its powerful radar and complex computer algorithms to discriminate between the warhead and non-threats such as countermeasures.

Depending on the needs of the warfighter, the AN/TPY-2 radar can be deployed in two different modes. In forward-based mode, the radar is positioned near hostile territory, and acquires ballistic missiles in the boost (ascent) phase of flight, shortly after they are launched. It then tracks and discriminates the threat, and passes critical information required by decision makers to the Command and Control Battle Management network.

When the AN/TPY-2 radar is deployed in terminal mode, the radar’s job is to detect, acquire, track and discriminate ballistic missiles in the terminal (descent) phase of flight. The terminal-mode AN/TPY-2 also leads the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense ballistic missile defense system by guiding the THAAD missile to intercept a threat.

AN/TPY-2 has a record of flawless performance against all classes of ballistic missiles. In forward-based mode, it has proven capability against short-, medium and intermediate-range ballistic missiles. In terminal mode, AN/TPY-2 has demonstrated its ability to enable an intercept of short- and medium-range ballistic missiles.

Raytheon has delivered ten AN/TPY-2s to date, and is in the process of building two more for the U.S. customer, and two for international partners. These radars are an important step in the right direction to meeting the growing U.S. and international demand for an affordable, proven system that can stay ahead of the increasing ballistic missile threat.

*Terra Radar System*
*https://defence.pk/threads/israeli-aerospace-industries-terra-radar-complex.407729/
*
@Taimoor Khan


----------



## HRK

MilSpec said:


> as a state which will do something reckless because of it's false sense of security.



Can you guarantee it will not happen ...???

Is there any one who can guarantee this ....??

Any Organization any mechanism .... ??

If you can't trust us for so many reasons (right or wrong) How could we we trust you ... ???

Any answer ....???

Plz read ...


HRK said:


> A corrupt general or politician may use the situation to divert the sentiments of general public to save his arses, *therefore India-Pakistan can't afford Internal destabilization & its a mutual responsibility.*







MilSpec said:


> But when called out on it it's backflips after backflips to bring in everything from religion to russia.



It was me who bring the religion ...??

Can you deny the fact that the basis of Neo Indian Nationalism is the a religious ideology ...??

Can you deny that BJP & singh pariwar are religiously motivated political & social organizations ... ??

How a religiously motivated person can be less dangerous then the other ... ???

I am here not even naming or comparing religion/s ....

Is there any scale which can measure any such thing ...??

Is there any mechanism which can guarantee that a religiously motivated person would not be harmful for Global peace then the other .... ???

leave religion a side any over zealous person under influence of Neo Nationalism would not be able to harm the stability ... any guarantee... ???

& for Russia it was not me who take up the issue of Siachin I just responded to straighten the record



MilSpec said:


> India based on it's false sense of security will cause Nuclear holocaust in south asia.



Again same questions ....

Is there any one who can guarantee this ....??

Any Organization any mechanism .... ??

http://zeenews.india.com/tags/indian-army-chief.html

plz count number of threats posted in the source listed above and by the a *single responsible office* ....

plz tell me which country is openly propagating about a DOCTRINE to attack other country ... ???



MilSpec said:


> that is your claim right.



No plz read the my post*s ... it not my claim ... it what Indian people I again say masses are saying I am just interpreting as you yourself said earlier 



What they are stating is the general feeling in India.

Click to expand...

*
"*Don't accuse me for Indian attitude Sir*" ...



MilSpec said:


> If your administration too thinks so then for the sake of humanity it should definitely so something about such an immature childish religious nutcases in India


I don't know about administration but if its upto me I will support them even if it cause me my hard earn resources, you may want to know the reason its simple

Why should only we suffer the Evil & Hypocrisy .... let the other side also enjoy the benefits (Doval Formula) .....

"Welcome to Hell" ....

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## GumNaam

@DavidSling

what do you think arrow 3's performance would be when trying to intercept MIRVs?


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## The Deterrent

JamD said:


> Go crazy!
> 
> The Ababeel can fit 3 Shaheen-III sized warheads inside it easily.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @The Deterrent








Microsoft Paint approves.

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## HRK

MilSpec said:


> It's even more fun to have an honest conversation, you should try it.



_Honesty is the best policy only in dealing with angels, for all others intelligence is the only way forward.... _

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> View attachment 371887
> 
> 
> Microsoft Paint approves.



yeah but this is not how MIRVs installed. This is the design of MARV. Benefit of doubt is given due to bad drawing  but a normal MIRV is fixed not on the upper stage but post boost vehicle(PBV) so that it releases the warhead one by one after making a small orientation supported only by GPS and satellite co-ordination and achieving optimum speed in space through vector thrust burners (cryogenics) . This is how one missile can release warhead in a systematic manner
and warheads fall 100-1000km apart at a post.pre designated targets as satellites keep updating the PBV.


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## shhh

HAKIKAT said:


> Since early 80's we have been hearing that Pak nukes are like ~200x of Hiroshima guys...



From where?


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## Cookie Monster

MilSpec said:


> *A nation that since it's existence has taken pride in killing Indian civilians via it's proxies* right from will have public backlash in India. It's part of national identity


I'm curious to know what u think of India's proxies killing Pakistanis? Most Indians here just avoid this topic or are in denial. India openly admitted to supporting Mukti Bahini in the past, not to mention the support of LTTE in Sri Lanka. Yet Indians on this forum always seem to think that India does no such thing.

Moreover during this past decade of War on Terror, thousands of Pakistanis died. According to Indians that's the result of Pakistan's past actions of propping up Taliban. It is true that Pakistan/US created them to fight against Soviets but what about after that? When they both turned around and started fighting against them surely they must have stopped funding the Talibans right? It would be foolish to assume that Pakistan is still funding them and then turns around to spend some more money to fight against them. So where are they getting their funding to continue to wage a decade long war against Pakistan?

It's a bit naive to think that Pakistan is the evil country that constantly messes with India and India is such an angel that it can do no wrong. The reality is that both are using proxies against each other constantly. So this whole narrative of Pakistan being a terrorist state spreading menace against India is a bit hypocritical at best when India is doing the same thing.

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## DavidSling

GumNaam said:


> @DavidSling
> 
> what do you think arrow 3's performance would be when trying to intercept MIRVs?


I know that Israel worked out of dealing with decoys, but as for MIRV's, there's no real answer for that.
Either u deal with the threat before it spread it's warheads, or u create as much countermeasure against all his warheads (Something that would look like MIRV's against MIRV's maybe)
To me the most logical solution would be a laser defense system, which is no where as mature for this.

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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> yeah but this is not how MIRVs installed. This is the design of MARV. Benefit of doubt is given due to bad drawing  but a normal MIRV is fixed not on the upper stage but post boost vehicle(PBV) so that it releases the warhead one by one after making a small orientation supported only by GPS and satellite co-ordination and achieving optimum speed in space through vector thrust burners (cryogenics) . This is how one missile can release warhead in a systematic manner
> and warheads fall 100-1000km apart at a post.pre designated targets as satellites keep updating the PBV.


Wait what? The whole payload fairing + third stage IS the PBV. How is MaRV related to this?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

The Deterrent said:


> Wait what? The whole payload fairing + third stage IS the PBV. How is MaRV related to this?


hes an engineer....spread his anal-ysis in Babur III thread and now here .

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Wait what? The whole payload fairing + third stage IS the PBV. How is MaRV related to this?



All of things won't be visible in the photos. What you see at top the bulky is the upper stage which accommodates PBV also known as BUS which holds the warhead some one has mentioned it previously. A normal PBV is way smaller in dimension than upper stage to avoid any incoming ABM, and the PBV is injected like a satellite. Later this PBV adjusts itself over the hostile airspace avoiding incoming ABM with the help of thrusters and satellite comm./gps to release the warheads.


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> All of things won't be visible in the photos. What you see at top the bulky is the upper stage which accommodates PBV also known as BUS which holds the warhead some one has mentioned it previously. A normal PBV is way smaller in dimension than upper stage to avoid any incoming ABM, and the PBV is injected like a satellite. Later this PBV adjusts itself over the hostile airspace avoiding incoming ABM with the help of thrusters and satellite comm./gps to release the warheads.


Of course they won't be visible, as they will be inside the fairing. It was merely a comparative illustration to show something else.

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Of course they won't be visible, as they will be inside the fairing. It was merely a comparative illustration to show something else.



You said payload fairing +3rd stage is the PBV. Which is not correct.


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> You said payload fairing +3rd stage is the PBV. Which is not correct.


Ababeel =/= Minuteman-III (or any other modern MIRVed ICBM)

_Aasaan bhasha mein, Ababeel => Jugaad._


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## Cookie Monster

JamD said:


> Go crazy!
> 
> The Ababeel can fit 3 Shaheen-III sized warheads inside it easily.
> View attachment 371671
> 
> View attachment 371670
> 
> @The Deterrent


It could've been some other number of warheads but instead there's three. Three warheads in a MIRV missile...named Ababeel. How poetic


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## JamD

@The Deterrent 

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to bring this up but once Ababeel is inducted (with user trials and the whole shebang) do you think the next step for our missile program is cannisterization, like we did for the Babur?


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## The Deterrent

JamD said:


> @The Deterrent
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the right thread to bring this up but once Ababeel is inducted (with user trials and the whole shebang) do you think the next step for our missile program is cannisterization, like we did for the Babur?


I don't think so. Canisterization is something like a luxury for us, we cannot afford it. The present configurations work reliably, so why bother? Only the preparation times would take longer in our case, but that is not a problem for now since Indian escalation is easily detectable in advance. 
Then there is the technical aspect too. Canisterization of BMs requires safe cold-launches. Developing that capability would spur up a whole new line of R&D.

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Ababeel =/= Minuteman-III (or any other modern MIRVed ICBM)
> 
> _Aasaan bhasha mein, Ababeel => Jugaad._



No, well then that defies the purpose of it's production. Because rotating the whole upper stage would require more powerful vector thrust motor and more fuel which is only possible through development of cryogenics in modern technological platform and cost reduction. Which could rather be used in PBV for quicker orientation and decoy deployment. Otherwise ABM can easily intercept it due to bulkiness of the stage.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Shaheer ul haq said:


> From where?


Horse's mouth...


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## Taimoor Khan

DavidSling said:


> *Arrow 3 (Israel)*
> 
> Home
> Defense Systems
> Non-U.S. Systems
> Arrow 3 (Israel)
> Systems: Non-U.S. Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arrow 3, an upgraded version of Israel’s Arrow 2, is a U.S.-Israeli system designed to intercept Tactical Ballistic Missiles (TBMs).
> 1) This system, developed in response to growing capabilities by regional adversaries such as Iran, operates at a higher altitude and greater range than currently fielded defense systems.
> 2) Arrow 3 is capable of exo-atmospheric intercepts well beyond the range of its predecessor and provides the necessary upper tier to Israel’s multilayer defense apparatus, with a reported range of up to 2,400 km.
> 
> 3) Arrow 3 will consist of a two-stage interceptor that will destroy incoming ballistic missiles and ICBMs with an exo-atmospheric kill vehicle that will also be to maneuver midair to intercept its target. The interceptor is designed to operate in space, inciting speculation that Arrow 3 could be used as an anti-satellite weapon
> 
> *Arrow 3 Development, Testing, and Fielding*
> 4) Arrow 3 was developed by Israel Aerospace Industries and Boeing. The system includes new communications, guidance, and sensor systems. However, it is designed to be fully interoperable with the Arrow 2 system and uses some of the same resources as that system, including launchers and battle management centers
> 
> 5) After failing its first live intercept test in December 2014, Arrow 3 underwent a number of hardware and software updates. It has since completed a number of successful tests, including the first successful engagement of a ballistic missile target with the Arrow 3 interceptor on December 10, 2015.
> 6) This intercept was conducted in the exo-atmosphere and was designed to test how well the system could “detect, identify, track and then discriminate real from decoy targets traveling quickly through space.”
> 7) A number of tests were conducted in 2016 to ensure capability before the system was deemed operational.
> 8) Arrow 3 completed development and was inducted into the Israeli Air Force on January 18, 2017.
> 
> *U.S. Contributions*
> 9) The United States agreed to co-develop the Arrow 3 system with Israel in 2008, despite urgings by the U.S. Department of Defense for Israel to procure the THAAD system instead.
> 10) The United States and Israel deepened their cooperation on Arrow 3 in July 2010 when they signed a bilateral agreement furthering ties in developing and producing the system.
> 11) Funding for the Arrow 3 system has been authorized by Congress since FY2008 and, between FY2008 and FY2015, the United States contributed $450M to the system. The FY16 NDAA authorized up to $15M for “the Arrow 3 Upper Tier Interceptor Program” and a further $19.5M for “Israeli Cooperative Programs” relating to Arrow 3.
> 
> *SOURCES*
> 
> Jeremy M. Sharp, “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” _Congressional Research Service_, June 10, 2015, https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf, 12. ↩
> “Arrow Weapon System (AWS),” _IHS Jane’s Land Warfare Platforms: Artillery and Air Defence 2012-13_, ed. Christopher F. Foss and James C. O’Halloran (United Kingdom: IHS, 2013), 692-695. ↩
> Jeremy M. Sharp, “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” _Congressional Research Service_, 12 ↩
> “Arrow Weapon System (AWS),” _IHS Jane’s Land Warfare Platforms: Artillery and Air Defence 2012-13_, 692-695 & Yiftah Shapir, “Another Layer of Defense: The Arrow-3 Test,” _The Institute for National Security Studies_, INSS Insight No. 407, February 27, 2013. ↩
> Dan Williams, “Israel’s Arrow 3 missile shield fails interception test: sources,” _Reuters_, December 16, 2014, http://www.reuters.com/article/us-arms-israel-arrow-idUSKBN0JU1DK20141216 & Missile Defense Agency, “IMDO and MDA Successfully Complete First Arrow-3 Ballistic Missile Defense Engagement,” December 10, 2015, https://www.mda.mil/news/15news0010.html. ↩
> Barbara Opall-Rome, “US-Israel Arrow-3 Intercepts Target in Space,” _Defense News_, December 10, 2015, http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ael-arrow-3-intercepts-target-space/77087084/. ↩
> Dan Williams, “Israel says ‘David’s Sling’ missile shield to be deployed in 2016,” _Reuters_, December 21, 2015, http://www.reuters.com/article/us-arms-israel-davidsling-idUSKBN0U410P20151221 & Missile Defense Agency, “IMDO and MDA Successfully Complete First Arrow-3 Ballistic Missile Defense Engagement.” ↩
> “Israel Expands Missile Defense System With New Interceptor,” _The Washington Post_, January 18, 2017, https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...10fe486791c_story.html?utm_term=.13d0e78b8045. ↩
> Jeremy M. Sharp, “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,”_ Congressional Research Service_, 12 ↩
> Ibid. ↩
> _National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2016_, Pub. L. No. 114-92, 129 Stat. 1140-1142 (2015). ↩
> https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/arrow-3/
> 
> *ELM-2080*
> 
> *
> 
> *Send
> questions
> ELM-2080 Brochure
> 
> Youtube Videos
> ELM-2080
> 
> *ELM-2080 - Green Pine Radar System*
> 
> *General*
> 
> The Green Pine Radar Systems, ELM-2080("Green Pine") and ELM-2080S ("Great Pine"), are a family of transportable, ground-based radar systems, designed to autonomously detect and simultaneously track dozens of Tactical Ballistic Missiles (TBMs) from long ranges, under all weather conditions and in the presence of undesired signals. The modular Active Electronically Steering Array (AESA) technology implemented in the radar includes thousands of transmit/receive modules that provide high redundancy, graceful degradation, high reliability and high availability. The original ELM-2080 Green Pine Radar and its more advanced successor, the ELM-2080S Super Green Pine Radar, use a similar deployment infrastructure as well as a similar integrated logistic support. This allows the customer to optimally tailor anti- TBM solutions with a mix of Green Pine Radar systems, according to specific operational requirements. Operational in the Israel Air Force as part of the Arrow Weapon System, Green Pine Radar Systems enhance the country’s air defense and early-warning capabilities. The addition of Green Pine radars improves the performance of any ballistic missile defense System.
> 
> 
> 
> *Features*
> 
> 
> Autonomous long range detection and acquisition of TBMs
> Digital AESA technology
> Multi-mode operation
> Simultaneous tracking of dozens of TBMs
> Wide and flexible spatial coverage
> Discrimination between TBMs and other target types
> Satellite detection and tracking
> Accurate impact and launch point estimation
> Interoperability with complementary Air Defense Systems
> Data recording and analysis capabilities
> Transportable configuration
> Field proven
> http://www.iai.co.il/2013/33785-27136-en/ELTA.aspx
> 
> *Army Navy/Transportable Radar Surveillance (AN/TPY-2) - U.S radar facility in the Israeli negev*
> 
> Countering the Growing Ballistic Missile Threat
> According to public U.S. intelligence estimates, there are more than 6,300 ballistic missiles outside of U.S., NATO, Russian and Chinese control, with that number expected to grow to almost 8,000 by 2020. Rogue regimes are developing nuclear, chemical and/or biological warheads, while at the same time making their missiles more flexible, mobile, survivable, reliable and accurate. As rogue regimes proliferate and improve their weapons 1, the men and women charged with protecting the U.S., our warfighters, allies and partners will need proven, affordable, reliable systems that can keep pace with the growing threat.
> 
> The first step in defeating a ballistic missile that has been fired is “seeing” it. And that’s where Raytheon’s AN/TPY-2 X-Band radar comes in. A critical element in the Ballistic Missile Defense System, AN/TPY-2 continually searches the sky for ballistic missiles. Once it detects a missile, it acquires it, tracks it, and uses its powerful radar and complex computer algorithms to discriminate between the warhead and non-threats such as countermeasures.
> 
> Depending on the needs of the warfighter, the AN/TPY-2 radar can be deployed in two different modes. In forward-based mode, the radar is positioned near hostile territory, and acquires ballistic missiles in the boost (ascent) phase of flight, shortly after they are launched. It then tracks and discriminates the threat, and passes critical information required by decision makers to the Command and Control Battle Management network.
> 
> When the AN/TPY-2 radar is deployed in terminal mode, the radar’s job is to detect, acquire, track and discriminate ballistic missiles in the terminal (descent) phase of flight. The terminal-mode AN/TPY-2 also leads the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense ballistic missile defense system by guiding the THAAD missile to intercept a threat.
> 
> AN/TPY-2 has a record of flawless performance against all classes of ballistic missiles. In forward-based mode, it has proven capability against short-, medium and intermediate-range ballistic missiles. In terminal mode, AN/TPY-2 has demonstrated its ability to enable an intercept of short- and medium-range ballistic missiles.
> 
> Raytheon has delivered ten AN/TPY-2s to date, and is in the process of building two more for the U.S. customer, and two for international partners. These radars are an important step in the right direction to meeting the growing U.S. and international demand for an affordable, proven system that can stay ahead of the increasing ballistic missile threat.
> 
> *Terra Radar System*
> *https://defence.pk/threads/israeli-aerospace-industries-terra-radar-complex.407729/
> *
> @Taimoor Khan




I have seen these links before but haven't found the answer to my original query.

Don't worry, unless your leaders go insane, our weapons wont be used against you lot. Your country is our insurance policy against uncle Sam. But since Indians are highly dependent on you lot for their BMD aspirations, naturally the interest grows in Isreal own capabilities.


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## DavidSling

Taimoor Khan said:


> I have seen these links before but haven't found the answer to my original query.
> 
> Don't worry, unless your leaders go insane, our weapons wont be used against you lot. Your country is our insurance policy against uncle Sam. But since Indians are highly dependent on you lot for their BMD aspirations, naturally the interest grows in Isreal own capabilities.


Pakistan don't want Israel as it's enemy and vise versa, stop talking no sense.

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## MilSpec

Cookie Monster said:


> I'm curious to know what u think of India's proxies killing Pakistanis? Most Indians here just avoid this topic or are in denial. India openly admitted to supporting Mukti Bahini in the past, not to mention the support of LTTE in Sri Lanka. Yet Indians on this forum always seem to think that India does no such thing.



If there is any credible links of India involved in terrorist acts inside Pakistan, I would be the first to condemn the Republic. Terrorism and Espionage are two very different things, Spies of either countries have been active in respective nations for decades, but if there are Indian organisations that are standing outside temples, churches and gurudwaras in India to fuel an insurgency in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir or Pakistani Punjab or balochistan, then we would be in the same league as of Pakistan as admitted by your own Ex President and COAS P. Musharraf that terror organisations like LeT and JEM have unprecedented support in Pakistan. As far holier than thou attitude is that you take grave offense in concerned, Mukti bahini (Literal translation as I am sure no one in Pakistan any longer understands Bengali means Freedom Platform). The question remains was Mukti Joddhas terrorists? If so why would Pakistan then recognize a government formed by the same Mukti Bahini's political platform led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman? a simple parallel in example was Taliban - a known terrorist outfit, forms a government in Afghanistan, and nations that considered them as terrorists did not recognize their government. So calling Mukti Bahini a terror outfit is not very convincing because they lacked most of the character traits of terrorist organisations. After the conflict they did not continue to be an armed organisations unlike Taliban, they did not indulge in repraisal and genocide after victory like the taliban or Isis, they abided by Geneva conventions and spared 90,000 PoW's of Pakistan. They did not indulge in bombings of hotels or public transport in civilian populations in west or east pakistan unlike taliban, let, jem isis etc. And foremost, they were not recognised by UN, or any other major power around the world as terrorists, even Pakistan never declared Mukti Jodhas as terrorists throughout the 70's, so today to turnaround and claim they were, is a bit lazy. 



Cookie Monster said:


> Moreover during this past decade of War on Terror, thousands of Pakistanis died. According to Indians that's the result of Pakistan's past actions of propping up Taliban. It is true that Pakistan/US created them to fight against Soviets but what about after that? When they both turned around and started fighting against them surely they must have stopped funding the Talibans right? It would be foolish to assume that Pakistan is still funding them and then turns around to spend some more money to fight against them. So where are they getting their funding to continue to wage a decade long war against Pakistan?



This story of Pakistan/US created taliban to fight the soviets is for people who are not familiar with the chronology of events in Afghanistan. Sorry but you won't be able to sell me that story. Does Pakistan still funds Taliban, I don't know the answer to that, but it surely built a robust parallel economy for taliban along with back channel religious donation pipelines from the gulf states, secure secondary HQ's and safehouses inside Pakistan, airlifted all of it's leadership before d-day, and given the accounts of most of the Military chiefs in the led ISAF in Afganistan, serves as the venerable arm of Pakistani military.



Cookie Monster said:


> It's a bit naive to think that Pakistan is the evil country that constantly messes with India and India is such an angel that it can do no wrong. The reality is that both are using proxies against each other constantly. So this whole narrative of Pakistan being a terrorist state spreading menace against India is a bit hypocritical at best when India is doing the same thing.


I have never said Pakistan is an evil country, and I would never say that. I have never said India is an angel either. Countries do not have character traits, they have certain institutional mechanism, Pakistan has for most of it's existence been a centralized state governed by a strong military and I don't mean that as an insult. For Ayubs time the system worked wonders, and Pakistan was positioned to be a tremendously successful economy with a very powerful military. India at that stage was on verge of being a failing state with static institutions, weak economy, burgeoning population and on brink of failure. Both nations chose their paths and we are where we are today. On the security aspect, yes absolutely India got involved in it's neighborhood where it saw it needed to intervene, and India has made mistakes, but it is in India's nature to learn from them. India got involved in LTTE to ensure Tamils were protected, but do remember when it became a heinous organisation, India went to war with the LTTE and supported SL in defeating LTTE. But when it comes to Pakistan, it hasn't done so, even after factions of Taliban that have turned against Pakistan have decimated it's growth, it has still played along with extremist faction. Even today this is your definition, A terrorist killing pakistanis is a bad terrorist, a terrorist killing Indians in India, is a good terrorist, TTP, LEJ, BRA - Bad, LET, JEM, AL Badr, HuJ- Good Terrorist.

None of the terror outfits operating in Pakistan, LEJ, BRA, BLA, TTP has any crowd funding operations, recruitment offices or any ground support here in India. But terror outfits operating in India find unprecedented support in pakistan, so much so leaders of JKLF, JEM, etc are based out of Pakistan.
None of Pakistani terrorist on the wanted lists find safe haven in India, whereas all the terrorist released from IC814 Hijacking are thriving/thrived in Pakistan, one of them went on to behead Daniel Pearl, and you as a common Pakistani having the cognizance of this reality want to equate the conduct of both the nations. Such narratives will find takers in Pakistan, but who else buys this? is rest of the world looking at India and pakistan and saying hey both are the same when it comes to terrorism, or are they pointing fingers at you?


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## phancong

Right after India successfully tested a China dubbed killer missile, China came out gully support of Pakistan nuclear capable missile development to maintain balance of nuclear deterrent in the region. Now Pakistan government announced the MIRV with multiple warhead test was a succeed. China fully understand strategic nuclear balance of India and Pakistan. China unannounced nuclear pact with Pakistan can't be ignore by Indian government. India nuke Pakistan need to nuke China at the same time.

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## GumNaam

phancong said:


> Right after India successfully tested a China dubbed killer missile, China came out gully support of Pakistan nuclear capable missile development to maintain balance of nuclear deterrent in the region. Now Pakistan government announced the MIRV with multiple warhead test was a succeed. China fully understand strategic nuclear balance of India and Pakistan. China unannounced nuclear pact with Pakistan can't be ignore by Indian government. India nuke Pakistan need to nuke China at the same time.


Even a thought of nuking Pakistan (let alone China and Pakistan) will result in india being wiped off the face of this earth in a matter of minutes. You've been fairly warned.

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## phancong

GumNaam said:


> Even a thought of nuking Pakistan (let alone China and Pakistan) will result in india being wiped off the face of this earth in a matter of minutes. You've been fairly warned.


I don't think India foolishly nuke either Pakistan or China.

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## GumNaam

phancong said:


> I don't think India foolishly nuke either Pakistan or China.


well good for them. they would prove themselves to be wiser than they look!


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## MilSpec

HRK said:


> Can you guarantee it will not happen ...???
> 
> Is there any one who can guarantee this ....??
> 
> Any Organization any mechanism .... ??
> 
> If you can't trust us for so many reasons (right or wrong) How could we we trust you ... ???
> 
> Any answer ....???
> 
> Plz read ...



Given that India has never initiated a unilateral war against any country, it won't, unless there is some massive act of terror against India. 
Who is asking you to trust us? there is no need for you to trust us.





HRK said:


> It was me who bring the religion ...??
> 
> Can you deny the fact that the basis of Neo Indian Nationalism is the a religious ideology ...??


Indian nationalism is has and always will be rooted in Secularism and Pluralism. 



HRK said:


> Can you deny that BJP & singh pariwar are religiously motivated political & social organizations ... ??


By Singh Pariwar, I am guessing you are referring to Sangh Parrivar. Today what is known as Sangh Parrivar, when started as Hindu Mahasabha was the exact mirror image of the AIML, So understand this, at your worst prediction assume India is taken over by Sangh parrivar and Hindu nationalists, the result is it becomes a mirror image of Pakistan, as per your own account India at it's worst would be like Pakistan.




HRK said:


> How a religiously motivated person can be less dangerous then the other ... ???
> 
> I am here not even naming or comparing religion/s ....
> 
> Is there any scale which can measure any such thing ...??
> 
> Is there any mechanism which can guarantee that a religiously motivated person would not be harmful for Global peace then the other .... ???



It would be alarming for India to give up it's secular nature and become a Hindu Theocracy, or a religious Republic, like Pakistan. there indeed is a mechanism, it's called constitution of the republic. No matter which party is in power in India, it cannot change the constitution of against the wishes of the nation. Even if tomorrow a AIMIM 's chief Owaisi becomes India's Prime minister, india won't change into an Islamic state, that remains the guarantee of a constitution that is sacrosanct to the nation's judicial fabric. 



HRK said:


> leave religion a side any over zealous person under influence of Neo Nationalism would not be able to harm the stability ... any guarantee... ???






HRK said:


> Again same questions ....
> 
> Is there any one who can guarantee this ....??
> 
> Any Organization any mechanism .... ??
> 
> http://zeenews.india.com/tags/indian-army-chief.html
> 
> plz count number of threats posted in the source listed above and by the a *single responsible office* ....
> 
> plz tell me which country is openly propagating about a DOCTRINE to attack other country ... ???


Both countries are responsible for their own conduct. 

Assuming that India will show immaturity and lack of strategic analysis while pakistan will, is contrarian to the track record of both the nations. 

No of threats on what? Absolutely India will retaliate if Indian interests come under attack from "Non State Actors" supported by your state Producers and Directors.

Which Doctrine to attack whom? India has never had a stated position on any combat doctrine. But what is has repeatedly stated is it's No-First use of Nuclear Weapons, Complete withdrawal of all chemical and Biological weapons. This like these are stated doctrines, other than that there is no stated doctrine of anything. 




HRK said:


> No plz read the my post*s ... it not my claim ... it what Indian people I again say masses are saying I am just interpreting as you yourself said earlier
> 
> *
> "*Don't accuse me for Indian attitude Sir*" ...
> 
> 
> I don't know about administration but if its upto me I will support them even if it cause me my hard earn resources, you may want to know the reason its simple
> 
> Why should only we suffer the Evil & Hypocrisy .... let the other side also enjoy the benefits (Doval Formula) .....
> 
> "Welcome to Hell" ....



I couldn't decipher the above lines.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Taimoor Khan said:


> I have seen these links before but haven't found the answer to my original query.
> 
> Don't worry, unless your leaders go insane, our weapons wont be used against you lot. Your country is our insurance policy against uncle Sam. But since Indians are highly dependent on you lot for their BMD aspirations, naturally the interest grows in Isreal own capabilities.


 Uncle Trump's all about gambling, which is covered by no insurance by the by...


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## randomradio

GumNaam said:


> @DavidSling
> 
> what do you think arrow 3's performance would be when trying to intercept MIRVs?



Terminal stage defence systems intercept warheads during decent. So it will intercept MIRVs the same way as any regular warhead.

MIRVs only increase the number of warheads that the BMD has to deal with. So it depends on how many missiles are available to deal with a warhead at a time.

A modern S-400 battery is capable of dealing with 12 MIRVs. Delhi may have as many as 10-15 batteries covering it. This is not counting the Indian BMD that will be part of Delhi's defences as well.


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## GumNaam

randomradio said:


> Terminal stage defence systems intercept warheads during decent. So it will intercept MIRVs the same way as any regular warhead.
> 
> MIRVs only increase the number of warheads that the BMD has to deal with. So it depends on how many missiles are available to deal with a warhead at a time.
> 
> A modern S-400 battery is capable of dealing with 12 MIRVs. Delhi may have as many as 10-15 batteries covering it. This is not counting the Indian BMD that will be part of Delhi's defences as well.


The s400 (nor THAAD) can track anything going at 4.8km/s. On decent, or missiles themselves are traveling at far faster than 4.8km/s, the MIRVs would probably be a lot faster once releases as modem MIRVs have their own thruster engines. The s400's only hope is to attempt a track, launch and intercept during the first few moments during the ascent time and that too, if the missile isn't hyper accelerating while changing its directions. If it is changing directions than the one interceptor won't do, multiple interceptors will have to be launched to intercept just 1 missile.

And bear in mind that the S400s have pretty large interceptors, they themselves can get intercepted. SSM missiles can be fired under the cover of other SAM systems like HQ16 and Asphide that would give it just enough coverage and protection from other interceptors until the missile reaches the untrackable speeds. Also remember that even the older missiles from the 70s accelerated at rates where there were hundreds of Gs worth of pressure; one can imagine the high acceleration. Needless to say the modern ones will accelerate at a far greater rate which would reduce the time to when the missile can effectively be intercepted down to a hopeless, dismal level of at most 1 minute if that.

Slim chances of success.

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## Pyara9

randomradio said:


> Terminal stage defence systems intercept warheads during decent. So it will intercept MIRVs the same way as any regular warhead.
> 
> MIRVs only increase the number of warheads that the BMD has to deal with. So it depends on how many missiles are available to deal with a warhead at a time.
> 
> A modern S-400 battery is capable of dealing with 12 MIRVs. Delhi may have as many as 10-15 batteries covering it. This is not counting the Indian BMD that will be part of Delhi's defences as well.



Ok so your telling me S-400 which you don't even have yet... is capable of destroying MIRVS? Please prove it Link please?


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## GumNaam

Pyara9 said:


> Ok so your telling me S-400 which you don't even have yet... is capable of destroying MIRVS? Please prove it Link please?


If the definition of a MIRV is an object that is flying at the speed of a canary with blinking lights, a guidance beacon and a big sign saying HERE I AM then yes, the s400 can intercept MIRVs!


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## randomradio

GumNaam said:


> The s400 (nor THAAD) can track anything going at 4.8km/s. On decent, or missiles themselves are traveling at far faster than 4.8km/s, the MIRVs would probably be a lot faster once releases as modem MIRVs have their own thruster engines. The s400's only hope is to attempt a track, launch and intercept during the first few moments during the ascent time and that too, if the missile isn't hyper accelerating while changing its directions. If it is changing directions than the one interceptor won't do, multiple interceptors will have to be launched to intercept just 1 missile.
> 
> Slim chances of success.



Lots of mistakes. Radars regularly track targets moving at mach 25, that's more than 8Km/s, 4.8Km/s is easy. How else do you think satellites are tracked? They are moving even faster at mach 28, more than 9Km/s. The S-400 can intercept targets up to 4.8Km/s, that's mach 14.

MIRV warheads fall due to gravity, it's nothing special. What's special about MIRVs is a missile can carry 3 or more warheads. Even missiles that have only one warhead come with reentry vehicles. During interception, the warhead is not changing directions, it is merely falling.

The S-400 was designed to intercept MIRVs. Along with other BMDs. For example, a battery can target 12 warheads. So a missile with 12 MIRV warheads can be intercepted by S-400. The only major criteria is the warheads should be doing less than mach 14. Since Delhi may have a minimum of 10 batteries, the S-400 can intercept 120 warheads at the same time. So you will need enough missiles that can carry 120 or more warheads to saturate the defences. This is not counting the Indian Phase 1 BMD.

If the Ababeel has 3 warheads, then Pak will need more than 40 missiles to saturate Delhi's S-400s. Of course, as time goes, the S-400 will be upgraded to be able to handle more threats at the same time. The Indian BMD is no different.

Missile speed depends on the range and altitude. So ICBMs have more speed, mach 17-25, SRBMs have the least speed, mach 2-3. So a missile fired from Pakistan towards Delhi is not going to be doing more than mach 10 even from the furthest ranges possible. Such missiles are significantly slower than 3Km/sec. 

However, other cities in India are under greater threat of nukes. But for that there will be 2 new missiles introduced in the S-400 family that can stop targets up to 7Km/s. Plus, the phase 2 of the Indian BMD program will also be able to stop IRBMs. So any missile fired from inside Pakistan to any part of India will be stopped by the BMD. The Phase 2 BMD and the new missiles for the S-400 are primarily targeted to stop missiles that can be fired from any part of China into India.


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## Pyara9

GumNaam said:


> If the definition of a MIRV is an object that is flying at the speed of a canary with blinking lights, a guidance beacon and a big sign saying HERE I AM then yes, the s400 can intercept MIRVs!


Some how it all remindes me of gen. Musharaf saying "counter maro counter maro" The entire purpose of mirvs is to fool the air defense system. Otherwise we wouldn't spend billions of dollars on research. We would just build more shaheen 3's.?


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## randomradio

Pyara9 said:


> Ok so your telling me S-400 which you don't even have yet... is capable of destroying MIRVS? Please prove it Link please?



I don't think you understand what MIRVs are. Look at my previous post.


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## Pyara9

randomradio said:


> I don't think you understand what MIRVs are. Look at my previous post.




I know exactly what they are.. I just want an external source or link saying s-400 is capable of destroying mirvs thats all. Like a brochure if u will?? Not the Bollywood crap where a man can catach a bullet with his hand thanx.

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## GumNaam

your entire previous post, completely based on the premise of tracking satellites is incorrect because those satellites have transmitters to where they are constantly giving their own location to the ground stations. Further more, when it comes to satellites from the enemy nation, besides just ground radar, there are OTHER satellites moving just as fast that are also tracking the target satellite so it is an entire network or ground radars, monitoring stations and other satellites that make the detection possible. Do yourself a favor and read up on limitations of THAAD which is probably at par with the s500 if not more advanced. N. Korea and S. Korea are right next to each other so it's a similar situation AND N. Korea's missiles are not as advanced nor fast as ours, basically glorified SCUD like missiles that have been fine tuned to be a little more accurate, that's basically it. They had to downgrade the effectiveness of THAAD in 1 hit 1 kill probability against even such a primitive missile from 75% to 90% based on how many N. Korean SCUDs are launched. They can ONLY make more effective by (guess what) INTRODUCING SATELLITE based IR detection!

So a few ground radars of the S400 is not gonna save you. Sorry man.



randomradio said:


> I don't think you understand what MIRVs are. Look at my previous post.



@Pyara9 has a fair request. all that he's asking for is the source that s400 can intercept MIRVs.



randomradio said:


> The S-400 was designed to intercept MIRVs. Along with other BMDs. For example, a battery can target 12 warheads. So a missile with 12 MIRV warheads can be intercepted by S-400. *The only major criteria is the warheads should be doing less than mach 14.*



Shaheen missiles travel at mach 18. So you've contradicted yourself. Nothing protects delhi or any other indian city from us. 

cheers

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## CriticalThought

GumNaam said:


> your entire previous post, completely based on the premise of tracking satellites is incorrect because those satellites have transmitters to where they are constantly giving their own location to the ground stations. Further more, when it comes to satellites from the enemy nation, besides just ground radar, there are OTHER satellites moving just as fast that are also tracking the target satellite so it is an entire network or ground radars, monitoring stations and other satellites that make the detection possible. Do yourself a favor and read up on limitations of THAAD which is probably at par with the s500 if not more advanced. N. Korea and S. Korea are right next to each other so it's a similar situation AND N. Korea's missiles are not as advanced nor fast as ours, basically glorified SCUD like missiles that have been fine tuned to be a little more accurate, that's basically it. They had to downgrade the effectiveness of THAAD in 1 hit 1 kill probability against even such a primitive missile from 75% to 90% based on how many N. Korean SCUDs are launched. They can ONLY make more effective by (guess what) INTRODUCING SATELLITE based IR detection!
> 
> So a few ground radars of the S400 is not gonna save you. Sorry man.
> 
> 
> 
> @Pyara9 has a fair request. all that he's asking for is the source that s400 can intercept MIRVs.
> 
> 
> 
> Shaheen missiles travel at mach 18. So you've contradicted yourself. Nothing protects delhi or any other indian city from us.
> 
> cheers



Loving your replies.

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## Pyara9

This shouldn't even be a discussion. India dosn't have s-400 yet. We have MIRVs! Their entire discussion is based on theory. In theory are commando's would also have neturailized all s-400 batteries. Indian kids think It's just going to be one MIRV launched from Pakistani side which they will easily counter with their future s400 n they won the war. No No No. In a full blown war they will have to deal with many more systems which work in a tandom. vise-versa so too many factors. as of this moment we have edge in some fields the have edge in others. Im a full blown war many perious lives will be lost won't matter who won like the past wars..


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## Cookie Monster

MilSpec said:


> If there is any credible links of India involved in terrorist acts inside Pakistan, I would be the first to condemn the Republic. Terrorism and Espionage are two very different things, Spies of either countries have been active in respective nations for decades, but if there are Indian organisations that are standing outside temples, churches and gurudwaras in India to fuel an insurgency in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir or Pakistani Punjab or balochistan, then we would be in the same league as of Pakistan as admitted by your own Ex President and COAS P. Musharraf that terror organisations like LeT and JEM have unprecedented support in Pakistan.
> 
> As far holier than thou attitude is that you take grave offense in concerned, Mukti bahini (Literal translation as I am sure no one in Pakistan any longer understands Bengali means Freedom Platform). The question remains was Mukti Joddhas terrorists? If so why would Pakistan then recognize a government formed by the same Mukti Bahini's political platform led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman? a simple parallel in example was Taliban - a known terrorist outfit, forms a government in Afghanistan, and nations that considered them as terrorists did not recognize their government. So calling Mukti Bahini a terror outfit is not very convincing because they lacked most of the character traits of terrorist organisations. After the conflict they did not continue to be an armed organisations unlike Taliban, they did not indulge in repraisal and genocide after victory like the taliban or Isis, they abided by Geneva conventions and spared 90,000 PoW's of Pakistan. They did not indulge in bombings of hotels or public transport in civilian populations in west or east pakistan unlike taliban, let, jem isis etc. And foremost, they were not recognised by UN, or any other major power around the world as terrorists, even Pakistan never declared Mukti Jodhas as terrorists throughout the 70's, so today to turnaround and claim they were, is a bit lazy.



U have written quite a lot of stuff about various topics that each require lengthy discussion so I'm gonna try my best to address each of those points concisely without making it confusing...hopefully. Here it goes...

I admit that I have no credible evidence to present in this case for proving that India is currently funding the likes of BLA etc. There are plenty of statements from our politicians and several reports in our media that make such claims but I don't think that is credible enough evidence. By that same token I don't buy India's evidence either where they try to link Pakistan with a terrorist attack in India by showing that the shoes he(the terrorist) wore were made in Pakistan or something else along those lines.

So I'm only going to stick with what has been admitted by government/military officials on both sides.

Our officials have admitted to supporting the likes of LeT and JeM and urs have admitted to supporting Mukti Bahini. Mukti Bahini carried out attacks against Pakistan and was armed by India. JeM and LeT do the same against India and armed by Pakistan. By saying that _"terrorism and espionage are two very different things"_, u r implying that India never supported terrorism inside Pakistan. It is a well known fact that India armed Mukti Bahini and Mukti Bahini carried out attacks against Pakistan. How different is that from Pakistan supporting the likes of LeT and JeM to fuel the Kashmiri separatist movement and their attacks against the Indian government/army?

_"The question remains was Mukti Joddhas terrorists? If so why would Pakistan then recognize a government formed by the same Mukti Bahini's political platform led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman? a simple parallel in example was Taliban - a known terrorist outfit, forms a government in Afghanistan, and nations that considered them as terrorists did not recognize their government."_
Many political parties have militant wings. Whether a country recognizes their political platform or not is irrelevant to this subject. A country may choose to recognize or not recognize their political platform based on that country's interests. It doesn't make their killing of ppl justifiable.

_"calling Mukti Bahini a terror outfit is not very convincing because they lacked most of the character traits of terrorist organisations"_
Then what would u call the attacks they carried out against the Pak government/military?
Let's see who else is carrying out attacks against their country's government/military? Oh right Kashmiris...then according to u they also must not be terrorists right?

_"They did not indulge in bombings of hotels or public transport in civilian populations in west or east pakistan unlike taliban, let, jem isis etc."_
Wrong. One quick example on June 9, 1971 Mukti Bahini members hijacked a car and launched a grenade attack on Dhaka Intercontinental Hotel. There are many more examples. Not to mention the attacks/sabotage efforts against PA. How r u going to justify that? Call it a freedom movement? Well then if attacking the government institutions and army is not a terrorist attack and instead a freedom struggle or whatever then I expect u would be using the same terms to describe the attacks against Indian troops by Kashmiris?

_"After the conflict they did not continue to be an armed organisations unlike Taliban, they did not indulge in repraisal and genocide after victory like the taliban or Isis, they abided by Geneva conventions and spared 90,000 PoW's of Pakistan."_
So abolishing past practices after objective has been achieved makes u not a terrorist? That's convenient. Well then don't be too quick to call Kashmiris terrorists when they attack. Wait for them to achieve their objectives first and then we can decide.

_"A terrorist killing pakistanis is a bad terrorist, a terrorist killing Indians in India, is a good terrorist, TTP, LEJ, BRA - Bad, LET, JEM, AL Badr, HuJ- Good Terrorist."_

Oh look the pot calling the kettle black. If u see all ur points I countered above u will realize that u r also doing the same thing by defending Mukti Bahini. Having different definitions of terrorism as they suit ur narrative.

That is fine. It is an acceptable human behavior demonstrated time and again throughout history. U see there is always that differentiation as it suits one's agenda and a lot of it is based on which side won. Just like how Mukti Bahini is hailed as Freedom Fighters now bcuz they won. Had they failed they would've been remembered as terrorists and traitors. French revolution, Russian revolution and all kinds of other freedom movements go down in history as epicly heroic, remembered for generations bcuz they were successful. The unsuccessful ones are remembered as traitors, terrorists, etc.
The second big reason is that it is a matter of perspective. U don't perceive Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization(u went to great lengths to defend them) bcuz they didn't rise up against India. But Kashmiris are labelled as terrorists by India for doing exactly the same thing. Why? Bcuz they stand against India unlike Mukti Bahini that stood against India's enemy.

In short one side's freedom fighter is another side's terrorist.

My issue with u or other Indians isn't that u don't consider Mukti Bahini at the same level as Kashmiri separatists(supported by LeT, JeM) etc. The different views are expected. I can totally understand why u guys would have different views on them. My issue is again that "holier than thou" attitude of Indians. Just like Pakistanis u guys also differentiate based on India's interests and yet don't own up to it...maintaining that we can do no wrong and all the fault lies with Pakistanis.

_"None of the terror outfits operating in Pakistan, LEJ, BRA, BLA, TTP has any crowd funding operations, recruitment offices or any ground support here in India. But terror outfits operating in India find unprecedented support in pakistan, so much so leaders of JKLF, JEM, etc are based out of Pakistan.
None of Pakistani terrorist on the wanted lists find safe haven in India, whereas all the terrorist released from IC814 Hijacking are thriving/thrived in Pakistan, one of them went on to behead Daniel Pearl, and you as a common Pakistani having the cognizance of this reality want to equate the conduct of both the nations."_
It is no secret that US has propped up/armed many drug cartels in various Central and South American countries...guess what? Without giving them a safe haven in US. Same for the Talibans btw when US was funding them, they were not provided safe havens in US. Their crowd funding operations, recruitment offices, etc. none of that occurred on US soil. So US must have never done those things?
There are many ways to go about doing such a task. It is not a requirement for a country to host bases for the organization they are supporting against some other country.

...and as for that last sentence since u brought up the whole equating the conduct of both nations...well let's equate it then.
Training camps of LeT/JeM in Pakistan
|__ Training camps of Mukti Bahini in India

Pakistan arming LeT/JeM
|__ India arming Mukti Bahini

What's so different here?



MilSpec said:


> Such narratives will find takers in Pakistan, but who else buys this? is rest of the world looking at India and pakistan and saying hey both are the same when it comes to terrorism, or are they pointing fingers at you?


Yes they are pointing fingers at Pakistan for now but that has more to do with the West's current pivot towards India and away from Pakistan. It was the same Pakistan that helped create Taliban and US/Europe didn't care at all. They even turned a blind eye to Pakistan's nuclear program for a while. The same US even threatened India. Remember that?
At that time Pak's bad actions weren't so bad but India's bad actions were bad actions.

But now that India is needed to balance China and Pakistan isn't that useful in this regard, Pak's bad actions are bad actions and India's not so much.

Now after that long discussion let's get to the important bit where u said
_"If there is any credible links of India involved in terrorist acts inside Pakistan, I would be the first to condemn the Republic"_

1) Now u have to either condemn India for supporting a terrorist organization (Mukti Bahini). Admitting that India has its hands just as dirty as Pakistan.

OR

2) Say that Mukti Bahini was not a terrorist organization and that their attacks against Pakistan's government/military are justified(insert some reason here). Label them as Freedom Fighters or whatever other label. Thus demonstrating the same differentiation between "good terrorists" and "bad terrorists", of which we Pakistanis are accused of.

The second option may seem more appealing, though be careful about picking it bcuz then Pakistanis can use the same reasoning to justify supporting Kashmiri separatists(or Freedom Fighters) attacking Indian government/military

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## Falcon26

MilSpec said:


> If there is any credible links of India involved in terrorist acts inside Pakistan, I would be the first to condemn the Republic. Terrorism and Espionage are two very different things, Spies of either countries have been active in respective nations for decades, but if there are Indian organisations that are standing outside temples, churches and gurudwaras in India to fuel an insurgency in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir or Pakistani Punjab or balochistan, then we would be in the same league as of Pakistan as admitted by your own Ex President and COAS P. Musharraf that terror organisations like LeT and JEM have unprecedented support in Pakistan. As far holier than thou attitude is that you take grave offense in concerned, Mukti bahini (Literal translation as I am sure no one in Pakistan any longer understands Bengali means Freedom Platform). The question remains was Mukti Joddhas terrorists? If so why would Pakistan then recognize a government formed by the same Mukti Bahini's political platform led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman? a simple parallel in example was Taliban - a known terrorist outfit, forms a government in Afghanistan, and nations that considered them as terrorists did not recognize their government. So calling Mukti Bahini a terror outfit is not very convincing because they lacked most of the character traits of terrorist organisations. After the conflict they did not continue to be an armed organisations unlike Taliban, they did not indulge in repraisal and genocide after victory like the taliban or Isis, they abided by Geneva conventions and spared 90,000 PoW's of Pakistan. They did not indulge in bombings of hotels or public transport in civilian populations in west or east pakistan unlike taliban, let, jem isis etc. And foremost, they were not recognised by UN, or any other major power around the world as terrorists, even Pakistan never declared Mukti Jodhas as terrorists throughout the 70's, so today to turnaround and claim they were, is a bit lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> This story of Pakistan/US created taliban to fight the soviets is for people who are not familiar with the chronology of events in Afghanistan. Sorry but you won't be able to sell me that story. Does Pakistan still funds Taliban, I don't know the answer to that, but it surely built a robust parallel economy for taliban along with back channel religious donation pipelines from the gulf states, secure secondary HQ's and safehouses inside Pakistan, airlifted all of it's leadership before d-day, and given the accounts of most of the Military chiefs in the led ISAF in Afganistan, serves as the venerable arm of Pakistani military.
> 
> 
> I have never said Pakistan is an evil country, and I would never say that. I have never said India is an angel either. Countries do not have character traits, they have certain institutional mechanism, Pakistan has for most of it's existence been a centralized state governed by a strong military and I don't mean that as an insult. For Ayubs time the system worked wonders, and Pakistan was positioned to be a tremendously successful economy with a very powerful military. India at that stage was on verge of being a failing state with static institutions, weak economy, burgeoning population and on brink of failure. Both nations chose their paths and we are where we are today. On the security aspect, yes absolutely India got involved in it's neighborhood where it saw it needed to intervene, and India has made mistakes, but it is in India's nature to learn from them. India got involved in LTTE to ensure Tamils were protected, but do remember when it became a heinous organisation, India went to war with the LTTE and supported SL in defeating LTTE. But when it comes to Pakistan, it hasn't done so, even after factions of Taliban that have turned against Pakistan have decimated it's growth, it has still played along with extremist faction. Even today this is your definition, A terrorist killing pakistanis is a bad terrorist, a terrorist killing Indians in India, is a good terrorist, TTP, LEJ, BRA - Bad, LET, JEM, AL Badr, HuJ- Good Terrorist.
> 
> None of the terror outfits operating in Pakistan, LEJ, BRA, BLA, TTP has any crowd funding operations, recruitment offices or any ground support here in India. But terror outfits operating in India find unprecedented support in pakistan, so much so leaders of JKLF, JEM, etc are based out of Pakistan.
> None of Pakistani terrorist on the wanted lists find safe haven in India, whereas all the terrorist released from IC814 Hijacking are thriving/thrived in Pakistan, one of them went on to behead Daniel Pearl, and you as a common Pakistani having the cognizance of this reality want to equate the conduct of both the nations. Such narratives will find takers in Pakistan, but who else buys this? is rest of the world looking at India and pakistan and saying hey both are the same when it comes to terrorism, or are they pointing fingers at you?



Just out of curiosity, when the Indian PM openly says his country will help the BLA- a terrorist organization that carries despicable acts of terror throughout Pakistan, hosts BLA leaders in plain view and sends senior RAW officials to Baluchistan; isn't that in your view an example of India blatantly aiding a terror outfit? Or are there special parameters and exceptions that applies to India?

Regarding good terrorist bad terrorist argument you have made, Pakistan has gone to war with the TTP and totally destroyed them pushing them to Afghanistan where they have enablers and friends. Your idea that Pakistan helps the taliban is really unsubstantiated. General David Petraeus who led the CIA, ISAF and the Central Command recently went on record where he said that he had vigorously went after idea of Pakistani support to the Taliban and that he has never been able to find any evidence. Should we consider your views more worthy of consideration than someone like David Petraeus?

The rest of your post is reasonable but lazed with the predicable anti Pakistan visceral hostility that's common among Indians. For a senior member, this is very unfortunate.

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## MilSpec

Falcon26 said:


> Just out of curiosity, when the Indian PM openly says his country will help the BLA- a terrorist organization that carries despicable acts of terror throughout Pakistan, hosts BLA leaders in plain view and sends senior RAW officials to Baluchistan; isn't that in your view an example of India blatantly aiding a terror outfit? Or are there special parameters and exceptions that applies to India?.



Ok lets deal with trump talk (otherwise known as BS opinions presented as facts) PM never has openly said anything about helping any organisation in Baluchistan. back up your claim. 
Which BLA leader is hosted in India? 
Which senior raw official was sent to balochistan? the alleged spy arrested from iranian border who was denied consular access? 



Falcon26 said:


> Regarding good terrorist bad terrorist argument you have made, Pakistan has gone to war with the TTP and totally destroyed them pushing them to Afghanistan where they have enablers and friends. Your idea that Pakistan helps the taliban is really unsubstantiated. General David Petraeus who led the CIA, ISAF and the Central Command recently went on record where he said that he had vigorously went after idea of Pakistani support to the Taliban and that he has never been able to find any evidence. Should we consider your views more worthy of consideration than someone like David Petraeus?
> 
> The rest of your post is reasonable but lazed with the predicable anti Pakistan visceral hostility that's common among Indians. For a senior member, this is very unfortunate.


Here you go
_
US military chief accuses Pakistan of backing terror group | World news | The Guardian

"Navy Admiral *Mike Mullen*, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, said Pakistani duplicity puts in jeopardy not only the frayed US-Pakistani partnership against terrorism, but also the outcome to the decade-old war in Afghanistan."

"Testifying alongside Mullen, US defense secretary *Leon Panetta* also decried Pakistani support for the Haqqani network, and he said Pakistani authorities have been told that the US will not tolerate a continuation of the group's cross-border attacks."


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/w...attack-on-us-embassy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, went further than any other American official in blaming the ISI for undermining the American effort in Afghanistan. His remarks were certain to further fray America’s shaky relationship with Pakistan, a nominal ally.

CIA Director *David Petraeus* met this week with Gen. Ahmad Shuja Pasha, chief of the ISI, to warn him against supporting the Haqqanis.

"We have credible intelligence obtained through a series of methods that directly implicate the ISI" in having "knowledge or support" for Haqqani activities, the official told CNN. "The ISI is providing financing, safe haven, advice and guidance" to the Haqqanis.
_



Cookie Monster said:


> U have written quite a lot of stuff about various topics that each require lengthy discussion so I'm gonna try my best to address each of those points concisely without making it confusing...hopefully. Here it goes...
> 
> I admit that I have no credible evidence to present in this case for proving that India is currently funding the likes of BLA etc. There are plenty of statements from our politicians and several reports in our media that make such claims but I don't think that is credible enough evidence. By that same token I don't buy India's evidence either where they try to link Pakistan with a terrorist attack in India by showing that the shoes he(the terrorist) wore were made in Pakistan or something else along those lines.
> 
> So I'm only going to stick with what has been admitted by government/military officials on both sides.
> 
> Our officials have admitted to supporting the likes of LeT and JeM and urs have admitted to supporting Mukti Bahini. Mukti Bahini carried out attacks against Pakistan and was armed by India. JeM and LeT do the same against India and armed by Pakistan. By saying that _"terrorism and espionage are two very different things"_, u r implying that India never supported terrorism inside Pakistan. It is a well known fact that India armed Mukti Bahini and Mukti Bahini carried out attacks against Pakistan. How different is that from Pakistan supporting the likes of LeT and JeM to fuel the Kashmiri separatist movement and their attacks against the Indian government/army?
> 
> _"The question remains was Mukti Joddhas terrorists? If so why would Pakistan then recognize a government formed by the same Mukti Bahini's political platform led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman? a simple parallel in example was Taliban - a known terrorist outfit, forms a government in Afghanistan, and nations that considered them as terrorists did not recognize their government."_
> Many political parties have militant wings. Whether a country recognizes their political platform or not is irrelevant to this subject. A country may choose to recognize or not recognize their political platform based on that country's interests. It doesn't make their killing of ppl justifiable.
> 
> _"calling Mukti Bahini a terror outfit is not very convincing because they lacked most of the character traits of terrorist organisations"_
> Then what would u call the attacks they carried out against the Pak government/military?
> Let's see who else is carrying out attacks against their country's government/military? Oh right Kashmiris...then according to u they also must not be terrorists right?
> 
> _"They did not indulge in bombings of hotels or public transport in civilian populations in west or east pakistan unlike taliban, let, jem isis etc."_
> Wrong. One quick example on June 9, 1971 Mukti Bahini members hijacked a car and launched a grenade attack on Dhaka Intercontinental Hotel. There are many more examples. Not to mention the attacks/sabotage efforts against PA. How r u going to justify that? Call it a freedom movement? Well then if attacking the government institutions and army is not a terrorist attack and instead a freedom struggle or whatever then I expect u would be using the same terms to describe the attacks against Indian troops by Kashmiris?
> 
> _"After the conflict they did not continue to be an armed organisations unlike Taliban, they did not indulge in repraisal and genocide after victory like the taliban or Isis, they abided by Geneva conventions and spared 90,000 PoW's of Pakistan."_
> So abolishing past practices after objective has been achieved makes u not a terrorist? That's convenient. Well then don't be too quick to call Kashmiris terrorists when they attack. Wait for them to achieve their objectives first and then we can decide.
> 
> _"A terrorist killing pakistanis is a bad terrorist, a terrorist killing Indians in India, is a good terrorist, TTP, LEJ, BRA - Bad, LET, JEM, AL Badr, HuJ- Good Terrorist."_
> 
> Oh look the pot calling the kettle black. If u see all ur points I countered above u will realize that u r also doing the same thing by defending Mukti Bahini. Having different definitions of terrorism as they suit ur narrative.
> 
> That is fine. It is an acceptable human behavior demonstrated time and again throughout history. U see there is always that differentiation as it suits one's agenda and a lot of it is based on which side won. Just like how Mukti Bahini is hailed as Freedom Fighters now bcuz they won. Had they failed they would've been remembered as terrorists and traitors. French revolution, Russian revolution and all kinds of other freedom movements go down in history as epicly heroic, remembered for generations bcuz they were successful. The unsuccessful ones are remembered as traitors, terrorists, etc.
> The second big reason is that it is a matter of perspective. U don't perceive Mukti Bahini as a terrorist organization(u went to great lengths to defend them) bcuz they didn't rise up against India. But Kashmiris are labelled as terrorists by India for doing exactly the same thing. Why? Bcuz they stand against India unlike Mukti Bahini that stood against India's enemy.
> 
> In short one side's freedom fighter is another side's terrorist.
> 
> My issue with u or other Indians isn't that u don't consider Mukti Bahini at the same level as Kashmiri separatists(supported by LeT, JeM) etc. The different views are expected. I can totally understand why u guys would have different views on them. My issue is again that "holier than thou" attitude of Indians. Just like Pakistanis u guys also differentiate based on India's interests and yet don't own up to it...maintaining that we can do no wrong and all the fault lies with Pakistanis.
> 
> _"None of the terror outfits operating in Pakistan, LEJ, BRA, BLA, TTP has any crowd funding operations, recruitment offices or any ground support here in India. But terror outfits operating in India find unprecedented support in pakistan, so much so leaders of JKLF, JEM, etc are based out of Pakistan.
> None of Pakistani terrorist on the wanted lists find safe haven in India, whereas all the terrorist released from IC814 Hijacking are thriving/thrived in Pakistan, one of them went on to behead Daniel Pearl, and you as a common Pakistani having the cognizance of this reality want to equate the conduct of both the nations."_
> It is no secret that US has propped up/armed many drug cartels in various Central and South American countries...guess what? Without giving them a safe haven in US. Same for the Talibans btw when US was funding them, they were not provided safe havens in US. Their crowd funding operations, recruitment offices, etc. none of that occurred on US soil. So US must have never done those things?
> There are many ways to go about doing such a task. It is not a requirement for a country to host bases for the organization they are supporting against some other country.
> 
> ...and as for that last sentence since u brought up the whole equating the conduct of both nations...well let's equate it then.
> Training camps of LeT/JeM in Pakistan
> |__ Training camps of Mukti Bahini in India
> 
> Pakistan arming LeT/JeM
> |__ India arming Mukti Bahini
> 
> What's so different here?
> 
> 
> Yes they are pointing fingers at Pakistan for now but that has more to do with the West's current pivot towards India and away from Pakistan. It was the same Pakistan that helped create Taliban and US/Europe didn't care at all. They even turned a blind eye to Pakistan's nuclear program for a while. The same US even threatened India. Remember that?
> At that time Pak's bad actions weren't so bad but India's bad actions were bad actions.
> 
> But now that India is needed to balance China and Pakistan isn't that useful in this regard, Pak's bad actions are bad actions and India's not so much.
> 
> Now after that long discussion let's get to the important bit where u said
> _"If there is any credible links of India involved in terrorist acts inside Pakistan, I would be the first to condemn the Republic"_
> 
> 1) Now u have to either condemn India for supporting a terrorist organization (Mukti Bahini). Admitting that India has its hands just as dirty as Pakistan.
> 
> OR
> 
> 2) Say that Mukti Bahini was not a terrorist organization and that their attacks against Pakistan's government/military are justified(insert some reason here). Label them as Freedom Fighters or whatever other label. Thus demonstrating the same differentiation between "good terrorists" and "bad terrorists", of which we Pakistanis are accused of.
> 
> The second option may seem more appealing, though be careful about picking it bcuz then Pakistanis can use the same reasoning to justify supporting Kashmiri separatists(or Freedom Fighters) attacking Indian government/military



Simple question.
Did UN, any other nation, even Pakistan, till date has declared Mukti Bahini as a terror organisation?


LET> From Wiki 
On 28 March 2001, in Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 1261, British Home Secretary Jack Straw designated the group a Proscribed Terrorist Organization under the Terrorism Act 2000.

On 5 December 2001, the group was added to the Terrorist Exclusion List. In a notification dated 26 December 2001, United States Secretary of State Colin Powell, designated Lashkar-e-Taiba a Foreign Terrorist Organisation.

Lashkar-e-Taiba was banned in Pakistan on 12 January 2002.

It is banned in India as a designated terrorist group under the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act.

It was listed as a terrorist organisation in Australia under the _Security Legislation Amendment (Terrorism) Act 2002_ on 11 April 2003 and was re-listed on 11 April 2005 and 31 March 2007.

On 2 May 2008 it was placed on the Consolidated List established and maintained by the Committee established by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1267 as an entity associated with al-Qaeda. The report also proscribed Jamaat-ud-Dawa as a front group of the LeT.[53] Bruce Riedel, an expert on terrorism, believes that LeT with the support of its Pakistani backers is more dangerous than al-Qaeda.

Please do present one shred of evidence that shows Pakistan moved in UN or elsewhere to classify Mukti Jodhas as terrorists....

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## Areesh

MilSpec said:


> Ok lets deal with trump talk (otherwise known as BS opinions presented as facts) PM never has openly said anything about helping any organisation in Baluchistan. back up your claim.
> Which BLA leader is hosted in India?
> Which senior raw official was sent to balochistan?



Terrorists can openly roam and stay in Delhi saying they are forming terrorist organization against Pakistan but yeah you don't support terrorists 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/820120792918675457

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## Falcon26

MilSpec said:


> Ok lets deal with trump talk (otherwise known as BS opinions presented as facts) PM never has openly said anything about helping any organisation in Baluchistan. back up your claim.
> Which BLA leader is hosted in India?
> Which senior raw official was sent to balochistan? the alleged spy arrested from iranian border who was denied consular access?
> 
> 
> Here you go
> _
> US military chief accuses Pakistan of backing terror group | World news | The Guardian
> 
> "Navy Admiral *Mike Mullen*, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, said Pakistani duplicity puts in jeopardy not only the frayed US-Pakistani partnership against terrorism, but also the outcome to the decade-old war in Afghanistan."
> 
> "Testifying alongside Mullen, US defense secretary *Leon Panetta* also decried Pakistani support for the Haqqani network, and he said Pakistani authorities have been told that the US will not tolerate a continuation of the group's cross-border attacks."
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/w...attack-on-us-embassy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, went further than any other American official in blaming the ISI for undermining the American effort in Afghanistan. His remarks were certain to further fray America’s shaky relationship with Pakistan, a nominal ally.
> 
> CIA Director *David Petraeus* met this week with Gen. Ahmad Shuja Pasha, chief of the ISI, to warn him against supporting the Haqqanis.
> 
> "We have credible intelligence obtained through a series of methods that directly implicate the ISI" in having "knowledge or support" for Haqqani activities, the official told CNN. "The ISI is providing financing, safe haven, advice and guidance" to the Haqqanis.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> Simple question.
> Did UN, any other nation, even Pakistan, till date has declared Mukti Bahini as a terror organisation?
> 
> 
> LET> From Wiki
> On 28 March 2001, in Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 1261, British Home Secretary Jack Straw designated the group a Proscribed Terrorist Organization under the Terrorism Act 2000.
> 
> On 5 December 2001, the group was added to the Terrorist Exclusion List. In a notification dated 26 December 2001, United States Secretary of State Colin Powell, designated Lashkar-e-Taiba a Foreign Terrorist Organisation.
> 
> Lashkar-e-Taiba was banned in Pakistan on 12 January 2002.
> 
> It is banned in India as a designated terrorist group under the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act.
> 
> It was listed as a terrorist organisation in Australia under the _Security Legislation Amendment (Terrorism) Act 2002_ on 11 April 2003 and was re-listed on 11 April 2005 and 31 March 2007.
> 
> On 2 May 2008 it was placed on the Consolidated List established and maintained by the Committee established by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1267 as an entity associated with al-Qaeda. The report also proscribed Jamaat-ud-Dawa as a front group of the LeT.[53] Bruce Riedel, an expert on terrorism, believes that LeT with the support of its Pakistani backers is more dangerous than al-Qaeda.
> 
> Please do present one shred of evidence that shows Pakistan moved in UN or elsewhere to classify Mukti Jodhas as terrorists....



The only BS opinion that's being presented is coming from you with your alternative view of the issues we are discussing. Modi publicly lent support to Baluch rebels. His government is in the process of granting asylum to Brahamdagh Bugti- a man designated as terrorist by Pakistan and whose organization has carried out vicious terror attacks against the Pakistani state and civilians.

If you can not accept Kulbhushan Yadav as an Indian spy then there's no point in discussing with you. You suffer from a predictable Indian malice of parroting anything your government says without any scrutiny.

With regards to General David Petraeus, the fact that he can categorically and enpathically state that he's never found any Pakistani support to despite his best efforts oncd hrs out of office is the clearest evidence that the allegations are politically motivated to exert pressure on Pakistan. General Petraeus had led the CIA, ISAF & Central Command. No one has better experience on this issue than him 






By the way, since you are in the mood for flashing US statements, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel is on record stating that India has financed terrorism in Pakistan- a claim repeatedly made by Pakistanis.

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## Cookie Monster

MilSpec said:


> Simple question.
> Did UN, any other nation, even Pakistan, till date has declared Mukti Bahini as a terror organisation?
> 
> 
> LET> From Wiki
> On 28 March 2001, in Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 1261, British Home Secretary Jack Straw designated the group a Proscribed Terrorist Organization under the Terrorism Act 2000.
> 
> On 5 December 2001, the group was added to the Terrorist Exclusion List. In a notification dated 26 December 2001, United States Secretary of State Colin Powell, designated Lashkar-e-Taiba a Foreign Terrorist Organisation.
> 
> Lashkar-e-Taiba was banned in Pakistan on 12 January 2002.
> 
> It is banned in India as a designated terrorist group under the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act.
> 
> It was listed as a terrorist organisation in Australia under the _Security Legislation Amendment (Terrorism) Act 2002_ on 11 April 2003 and was re-listed on 11 April 2005 and 31 March 2007.
> 
> On 2 May 2008 it was placed on the Consolidated List established and maintained by the Committee established by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1267 as an entity associated with al-Qaeda. The report also proscribed Jamaat-ud-Dawa as a front group of the LeT.[53] Bruce Riedel, an expert on terrorism, believes that LeT with the support of its Pakistani backers is more dangerous than al-Qaeda.
> 
> Please do present one shred of evidence that shows Pakistan moved in UN or elsewhere to classify Mukti Jodhas as terrorists....


so if an organization isn't declared a terrorist organization by an arbitrary number of countries or UN, its terrorist actions are completely ok?
I guess the Pakistanis who lost their lives in Mukti Bahini attacks were not worth as much as those Indians who lost their lives in LeT and JeM attacks.

U remind me of this previous White House press secretary Josh Earnest talking about Afghan Taliban. I remember listening to the same semantics from him that u r relying on. Let me find it...

Here we go:

Josh Earnest: “They do carry out tactics that are akin to terrorism. They do pursue terror attacks in an effort to try to advance their agenda [but] *they have a different classification*.”
Josh Earnest: "[They are] different than an organization like Al-Qaeda that has a much broader global aspiration to carry out acts of violence and acts of terror against Americans and American interests all around the globe.”

Link below if u wanna verify for urself.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/taliban-terrorists-white-house/story?id=28588120

^^ that different classification must make it ok. Its all sunshine and unicorns for the ppl dying at the hands of "non terror" organisations.

I can see that this discussion would go nowhere so let's just end it here.

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## MilSpec

Falcon26 said:


> The only BS opinion that's being presented is coming from you with your alternative view of the issues we are discussing. Modi publicly lent support to Baluch rebels. His government is in the process of granting asylum to Brahamdagh Bugti- a man designated a......ced terrorism in Pakistan- a claim repeatedly made by Pakistanis.
> 
> 
> Falcon26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, when the Indian PM *openly says his* country will help the BLA- a terrorist organization that carries despicable acts of terror throughout Pakistan,
Click to expand...


Provide reference to the above. if not then the entire premise is based on BS. it's as simple as that.



Cookie Monster said:


> so if an organization isn't declared a terrorist organization by an arbitrary number of countries or UN, its terrorist actions are completely ok?
> I guess the Pakistanis who lost their lives in Mukti Bahini attacks were not worth as much as those Indians who lost their lives in LeT and JeM attacks.
> 
> U remind me of this previous White House secretary Josh Earnest talking about Afghan Taliban. I remember listening to the same semantics from him that u r relying on. Let me find it...
> 
> Here we go:
> 
> Josh Earnest: “They do carry out tactics that are akin to terrorism. They do pursue terror attacks in an effort to try to advance their agenda [but] they have a different classification.”
> Josh Earnest: "[They are] different than an organization like Al-Qaeda that has a much broader global aspiration to carry out acts of violence and acts of terror against Americans and American interests all around the globe.”
> 
> Link below if u wanna verify for urself.
> http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/taliban-terrorists-white-house/story?id=28588120
> 
> I can see that this discussion would go nowhere so let's just end it here.


Again same simple question.

Has Pakistan, your own country, your own government, successive military and civilian variety *EVER *declared Mukti Bahini as a terror outfit?


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## Cookie Monster

MilSpec said:


> Provide reference to the above. if not then the entire premise is based on BS. it's as simple as that.
> 
> 
> Again same simple question.
> 
> Has Pakistan, your own country, your own government, successive military and civilian variety *EVER *declared Mukti Bahini as a terror outfit?


India doesn't sponsor terrorism. Pakistan is a menace that sponsors terrorism. Business as usual...carry on.


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## F86 Saber

MilSpec said:


> Provide reference to the above. if not then the entire premise is based on BS. it's as simple as that.
> 
> 
> Again same simple question.
> 
> Has Pakistan, your own country, your own government, successive military and civilian variety *EVER *declared Mukti Bahini as a terror outfit?



You are stuck on one point ignoring what @Cookie Monster tried to explain, Mukti were never declared as terrorists because they achieved what they wanted in a very short time with ample support from India i.e separation of Bangladesh after which there was no need for them to be violent. If the same struggle had been continuing until now, they would have been declared terrorists as well.

Similarly, had Kashmir been freed immediately after 1947, LeT, JuD and others would never even have existed hence no terrorism charges.

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## Falcon26

MilSpec said:


> Provide reference to the above. if not then the entire premise is based on BS. it's as simple as that.
> 
> 
> Again same simple question.
> 
> Has Pakistan, your own country, your own government, successive military and civilian variety *EVER *declared Mukti Bahini as a terror outfit?



LOL what a pathetic way to back off from a debate. Absolutely no response to the rest of the post, just random underline of a point. Simply avoid what you have no response for. Simplistic tactic.

But sure let's assume Modi intends to carry out a hunger strike to support the Baluch groups that he's inviting to his country and who have become celebrities on the Indian media.

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## Cookie Monster

F86 Saber said:


> You are stuck on one point ignoring what @Cookie Monster tried to explain, Mukti were never declared as terrorists because they achieved what they wanted in a very short time with ample support from India i.e separation of Bangladesh after which there was no need for them to be violent. If the same struggle had been continuing until now, they would have been declared terrorists as well.
> 
> Similarly, had Kashmir been freed immediately after 1947, LeT, JuD and others would never even have existed hence no terrorism charges.


I appreciate ur efforts of trying to break it down for him but I'm sure he already knows that. He is stuck on semantics on purpose bcuz if he was to go beyond that he would have to confront some harsh realities.

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## MilSpec

Falcon26 said:


> LOL what a pathetic way to back off from a debate. Absolutely no response to the rest of the post, just random underline of a point. Simply avoid what you have no response for. Simplistic tactic.
> 
> But sure let's assume Modi intends to carry out a hunger strike to support the Baluch groups that he's inviting to his country and who have become celebrities on the Indian media.


Back of from a fake debate? You wrote: when the Indian PM *openly says his* country will help the BLA- a terrorist organization : presenting it as a fact. 
When asked about referencing the claim you want to slither away with usual personal attacks. 

Post a reference to your claim or eat your own words.


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## Shoaib Aziz

Wow. Hatred makes people do crazy things. Everything about one's enemy should be belittled and mocked, enemy are a bunch of haphazard buffoons who must be the dumbest of the world!! How the hell Pakistanis can do research? Pakistan may be the first Asian country after Israel to become a member of CERN but how the hell can they learn Mathematics and Physics. Pioneering work in the cutting edge grand unification theory was also done by Pakistani physicists notable a village boy named Abdus Salam but this must be a Chinese missile with Arabic name. Pakistanis may have rose from 3% of union GDP in 1947 to 11 percent of combined GDP of India Pakistan and Bangladesh but, well, aren't they going to be a failed state? Pakistani beggar can only dream about competing with India.

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## MilSpec

F86 Saber said:


> You are stuck on one point ignoring what @Cookie Monster tried to explain, Mukti were never declared as terrorists because they achieved what they wanted in a very short time with ample support from India i.e separation of Bangladesh after which there was no need for them to be violent. If the same struggle had been continuing until now, they would have been declared terrorists as well.
> 
> Similarly, had Kashmir been freed immediately after 1947, LeT, JuD and others would never even have existed hence no terrorism charges.


The premise of the argument is equating conduct of India and Pakistan. The equation's variables being all of the Pakistan's proxies pitted as a subjective counter to Mukti bahini. The insistence being both guerrilla forces being different sides of the same terror coin. My point is quite simple that the argument is not valid because the comparison is between known Terrorist organisation recognised as such by multitude of nations around the world; and Mukti Bahini which even Pakistan, a nation that MB dealt the final blows to doesn't concede as a terrorist entity. You might perceive it as the same, and to you the argument may be valid, but India, bangladesh, UN and the rest of the world doesn't see it the same way.


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## HRK

MilSpec said:


> Given that India has never initiated a unilateral war against any country,


1971 ... ??


MilSpec said:


> it won't, unless there is some massive act of terror against India.


So Is there any way to established that 'EXPECTED' Terror attack will have no internal connection ???
& that they will be supported by elements (not talking about "non-state actors") situated outside the geographical boundary of India .... ???


MilSpec said:


> Who is asking you to trust us? there is no need for you to trust us.


So there must not be any *basis for any relation *b/w the two *NUCLEAR POWER* (it does not even matter these will be good or bad) ....???

Who by the curse of history are enemy of each other ... ???

You don't want *Mutual Survival* .... ??

Or any *Mutually Agreed Escalation Ladder* ... to tackle the worst fears of Global community .... ??



MilSpec said:


> Indian nationalism is has and always will be rooted in Secularism and Pluralism.



Hindu Tava ideology & Sangh Parrivar represent *Secularism and Pluralism of INDIAN SOCIETY* .... ??



MilSpec said:


> By Singh Pariwar, I am guessing you are referring to Sangh Parrivar. Today what is known as Sangh Parrivar, when started as Hindu Mahasabha was the exact mirror image of the AIML, So understand this, at your worst prediction assume India is taken over by Sangh parrivar and Hindu nationalists,



The exact mirror of AIML was the Congress of Nehru & Gandhi, BTW if YOU a person sitting in US find it necessary to defend the Sangh Parrivar rather then realizing the *potential danger* & denying the need to have a *mechanism to mitigate the risk *which may arise anytime, anywhere ... then the DANGER IS MORE REAL AND MANY FOLDS then my assessment .... 

Sir plz understand even if that AIML was the mother of all evils in India it no more in existence it no more RELEVANT to the *points I am raising *but Sangh Parrivar & BJP exist today they are relevant in today's scenario & EVEN IF THEY ARE ANGELS WE DON'T *TRUST *YOUR ANGELS 



MilSpec said:


> the result is it becomes a mirror image of Pakistan, as per your own account India at it's worst would be like Pakistan.


What I said was not in context in which you are reading, but even if you want to understand it in that manner then I will say

*"I Know to survive in my hell, do you know to survive in yours" .... *



MilSpec said:


> It would be alarming for India to give up it's secular nature and become a Hindu Theocracy, or a religious Republic, like Pakistan. there indeed is a mechanism, it's called constitution of the republic. No matter which party is in power in India, it cannot change the constitution of against the wishes of the nation. Even if tomorrow a AIMIM 's chief Owaisi becomes India's Prime minister, india won't change into an Islamic state, that remains the guarantee of a constitution that is sacrosanct to the nation's judicial fabric.



The constitution of India is not a *mutual agreed mechanism to tackle the issues I am talking*; it's for Domestic Theater of Indian to serve the purpose to Constitutionalize the STATE, GOVERNANCE & ADMINISTRATION of India. for me it does not matter its Secular, Communal, Religious or Apartheid .... what matter is the ideology in practices & accepted in general masses .... *so Sir plz honestly try to answer the question I asked previously *


> Can you deny that BJP & singh pariwar are religiously motivated political & social organizations ... ??


& Does they represent Secularism and Pluralism of India Society ... ??

Who is in Power in INDIA Representative of Secularism and Pluralism or Representative Religiously Motivated Neo Nationalism ideologist ... ??

Secondly Can you direct me any War Act under Indian constitution ... ???

*Can Indian Constitution ensure that no POLITICIAN can initiate the war at his will *... ??? 

Plz answer these queries but keep in mind I am not part of your *DOMESTIC AUDIENCE*, & you are at *INTERNATIONAL FORUM* 



MilSpec said:


> Both countries are responsible for their own conduct.


Agreed but WHAT IF ONE ACT IRRESPONSIBLE .... ??

getting the drift what I am saying .... ??

Just to remind you We are talking the TOPIC RELATED TO NUCLEAR ISSUE (& I have highlighted all the relevant issue I have raised in debate) not the Constitution of India 



MilSpec said:


> Assuming that India will show immaturity and lack of strategic analysis while pakistan will, is contrarian to the track record of both the nations.



Sir I have posted an excerpt from third part in our private conversation .... was India showing restrain at that time ... ???

Then Why it can not happen again ... ??

Again we are at square one ....

What is the mechanism which can ensure that it will never happen again ... ???

Any Guarantee .... ??

When US & USSR despite not trusting each other can have such BRIDGES why INDIA & PAKISTAN could not have .... ??? 



MilSpec said:


> No of threats on what? Absolutely India will retaliate if Indian interests come under attack from "Non State Actors" supported by your state Producers and Directors.



INDIA will retaliate to whom for what ....??? 

again back to the same situation & same relevant queries to the same old theories 

*So Is there any way to established that 'EXPECTED' Terror attack will have no internal connection ???*

*& that they will be supported by elements (not talking about "non-state actors") situated outside the geographical boundary of India .... ???*

*And MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS 

INDIA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHO HAVE THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO RETALIATE .... ??? 

NO OTHER COUNTRY HAVE THAT RIGHT .... ???

& WHAT INDIAN PLANNERS THINK OTHER WILL NOT RETALIATE .... ??*




MilSpec said:


> Which Doctrine to attack whom? India has never had a stated position on any combat doctrine. But what is has repeatedly stated is it's No-First use of Nuclear Weapons, Complete withdrawal of all chemical and Biological weapons. This like these are stated doctrines, other than that there is no stated doctrine of anything.



Should I remind you about this ...??
http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/army-chief-says-military-must-prepare-for-cold-start-117011301174_1.html 

NFU policy .... ???
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-use-nuclear-policy-adds-my-thinking-4369062/

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...indias-nuke-doctrine/articleshow/55357808.cms

http://web.mit.edu/polisci/news/pdf/NarangFiveMyths.pdf

*plz give a read to these links these will surely help .... AGAIN I DOES NOT BELONG TO YOUR DOMESTIC AUDIENCE *



MilSpec said:


> I couldn't decipher the above lines.


[/QUOTE]

& this is not my problem 

Regards,

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## randomradio

GumNaam said:


> your entire previous post, completely based on the premise of tracking satellites is incorrect because those satellites have transmitters to where they are constantly giving their own location to the ground stations.



Horribly wrong. Radar is used to detect even junk orbiting earth.



> Do yourself a favor and read up on limitations of THAAD which is probably at par with the s500 if not more advanced.



THAAD is similar to the S-400.



> N. Korea and S. Korea are right next to each other so it's a similar situation AND N. Korea's missiles are not as advanced nor fast as ours, basically glorified SCUD like missiles that have been fine tuned to be a little more accurate, that's basically it. They had to downgrade the effectiveness of THAAD in 1 hit 1 kill probability against even such a primitive missile from 75% to 90% based on how many N. Korean SCUDs are launched.



Which world are you from? North Korea sold ballistic missile technology to Pakistan. The Ghauri 1 was a Korean Nodong. Basically SCUD.



> They can ONLY make more effective by (guess what) INTRODUCING SATELLITE based IR detection!



What shit. We already have these systems.



> So a few ground radars of the S400 is not gonna save you. Sorry man.



We have spaced based detection systems. Had them for nearly 2 decades now.



> @Pyara9 has a fair request. all that he's asking for is the source that s400 can intercept MIRVs.



S-400 intercepts warheads during decent. Neither of you know what MIRV means.



> Shaheen missiles travel at mach 18. So you've contradicted yourself. Nothing protects delhi or any other indian city from us.



Irrelevant. For it to reach mach 18, it has to be fired from a range of 3000Km from Delhi. Your country ain't that big. You can't target Delhi with the Shaheen. You will have to fire your missile from Turkey if you want to hit Delhi with the Shaheen. It's simple physics.

Have you ever thrown a ball in your life?



Pyara9 said:


> I know exactly what they are.. I just want an external source or link saying s-400 is capable of destroying mirvs thats all. Like a brochure if u will?? Not the Bollywood crap where a man can catach a bullet with his hand thanx.



No, you don't. Or else you wouldn't be asking such a stupid question.


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## Cookie Monster

MilSpec said:


> The premise of the argument is equating conduct of India and Pakistan.


Yes I did equate the conducts...bcuz a direct comparison better illustrates how both countries do the same thing yet only one is somehow responsible.


MilSpec said:


> The equation's variables being all of the Pakistan's proxies pitted as a subjective counter to Mukti bahini.


I made it clear in the beginning that I'm not going to speculate on other things like BLA bcuz I have no credible evidence on that. Do show me ALL THE PAKISTAN's PROXIES that u claim I have pitted against MB. If by that u mean two and not all then yes, I clarified that I will be basing it entirely off of confirmed admissions(credible sources) of a country supporting proxies in enemy country. Was I wrong to use credible evidence?



MilSpec said:


> The insistence being both guerrilla forces being different sides of the same terror coin. My point is quite simple that the argument is not valid because the comparison is between known Terrorist organisation recognised as such by multitude of nations around the world; and Mukti Bahini which even Pakistan, a nation that MB dealt the final blows to doesn't concede as a terrorist entity. You might perceive it as the same, and to you the argument may be valid, but India, bangladesh, UN and the rest of the world doesn't see it the same way.


It's fine if u want to hide behind semantics. I can clearly see how Pakistani lives that were lost at the hands of Indian sponsored/armed Mukti Bahini is completely ok bcuz "UN and the rest of the world doesn't see [MB as a terrorist organizaton]", whereas if Indian lives are lost at the hands of Pakistani sponsored/armed JeM and LeT then Pak is the devil. Makes complete sense

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## MilSpec

HRK said:


> 1971 ... ??
> 
> So Is there any way to established that 'EXPECTED' Terror attack will have no internal connection ???
> & that they will be supported by elements (not talking about "non-state actors") situated outside the geographical boundary of India .... ???
> 
> So there must not be any *basis for any relation *b/w the two *NUCLEAR POWER* (it does not even matter these will be good or bad) ....???
> 
> Who by the curse of history are enemy of each other ... ???
> 
> You don't want *Mutual Survival* .... ??
> 
> Or any *Mutually Agreed Escalation Ladder* ... to tackle the worst fears of Global community .... ??


not really, I don't want a Mutually agreed escalation ladder at all. I would like for India to to have all options open at all times, and same i guess is for Pakistan.It provides me with a multitude of options, fall-backs and containment options. Such arrangement are constraints for possible actions, and also prevent exploitation of technologies down the line in future. So no , I wouldn't favor any such arrangements. If there are any, they have to be individual entities unilateral choice. 



HRK said:


> Hindu Tava ideology & Sangh Parrivar represent *Secularism and Pluralism of INDIAN SOCIETY* .... ??


Hindu Tava: Hindu Frying Skillet
Hindutva: Hindu Nationalism

And no Sangh Parrivar which comprises of RSS, VHP and some other off shoots represents Hindu Right Wing.





HRK said:


> The exact mirror of AIML was the Congress of Nehru & Gandhi, BTW if YOU a person sitting in US find it necessary to defend the Sangh Parrivar rather then realizing the *potential danger* & denying the need to have a *mechanism to mitigate the risk *which may arise anytime, anywhere ... then the DANGER IS MORE REAL AND MANY FOLDS then my assessment ....


You are quite wrong here. AIML was the exact mirror of Hindu Mahasabha (today's equivalent of Sangh). Both organisation were non-secular religious right movements.Aiml wanted Muslim home land - pakistan , Sangh wanted Hindu Rashtra - bharat,
AIML's direct action day won , Sangh lost.



HRK said:


> Sir plz understand even if that AIML was the mother of all evils in India it no more in existence it no more RELEVANT to the *points I am raising *but Sangh Parrivar & BJP exist today they are relevant in today's scenario & EVEN IF THEY ARE ANGELS WE DON'T *TRUST *YOUR ANGELS


Read BJP's manifesto, there is no commonality with any of Sangh Parrivars rhetoric.




HRK said:


> What I said was not in context in which you are reading, but even if you want to understand it in that manner then I will say
> *"I Know to survive in my hell, do you know to survive in yours" ....*


* 
Actually, We have been living in the AIML's progeny in our neighborhood since day one, but 70 yrs later the thought of a Sangh entity in power in India is a Global threat. Ohh the irony. *




HRK said:


> The constitution of India is not a *mutual agreed mechanism to tackle the issues I am talking*; it's for Domestic Theater of Indian to serve the purpose to Constitutionalize the STATE, GOVERNANCE & ADMINISTRATION of India. for me it does not matter its Secular, Communal, Religious or Apartheid .... what matter is the ideology in practices & accepted in general masses .... *so Sir plz honestly try to answer the question I asked previously *
> 
> & Does they represent Secularism and Pluralism of India Society ... ??


*As the constitution has not been changed and the government that was sworn in abides by the secular constitution of India.*


HRK said:


> Who is in Power in INDIA Representative of Secularism and Pluralism or Representative Religiously Motivated Neo Nationalism ideologist ... ??


*A Populist right wing Secular constitutional legally democratically elected government. Not neo-nationalist, but a nationalist democratic party. *



HRK said:


> Secondly Can you direct me any War Act under Indian constitution ... ???


*Article 352 of the Indian Constitution.*



HRK said:


> *Can Indian Constitution ensure that no POLITICIAN can initiate the war at his will *... ???


 yes it does. Again a democracy, not a theocracy.



HRK said:


> Agreed but WHAT IF ONE ACT IRRESPONSIBLE .... ??


*If one nation acts irresponsible it has to pay for it. *


HRK said:


> *And MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS
> 
> INDIA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHO HAVE THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO RETALIATE .... ???
> 
> NO OTHER COUNTRY HAVE THAT RIGHT .... ???*


*You have the same right, if you can swing it.



HRK said:



& WHAT INDIAN PLANNERS THINK OTHER WILL NOT RETALIATE .... ??

Click to expand...

I hope our planners do better than that. As far as most of the conflicts we have managed, i feel we have done a relatively decent job, we know our threat profile, and have to find methods to contain or escalate a conflict to make the terms of engagement favorable for us. *





HRK said:


> Should I remind you about this ...??
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...st-prepare-for-cold-start-117011301174_1.html


 
And, it is what it is, a deployment strategy for faster deployment of troops. It is one of the doctrines of deployment, doesn't mean it's the only one. Our defensive paradigm is not based on any specific country.



HRK said:


> NFU policy .... ???
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-use-nuclear-policy-adds-my-thinking-4369062/


 


HRK said:


> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...indias-nuke-doctrine/articleshow/55357808.cms



In democracy, even the presidents birth certificate can be questioned, a stated policy is not beyond questioning, India has not revoked it's position on NFU.[/QUOTE]



Cookie Monster said:


> Yes I did equate the conducts...bcuz a direct comparison better illustrates how both countries do the same thing yet only one is somehow responsible.
> 
> I made it clear in the beginning that I'm not going to speculate on other things like BLA bcuz I have no credible evidence on that. Do show me ALL THE PAKISTAN's PROXIES that u claim I have pitted against MB. If by that u mean two and not all then yes, I clarified that I will be basing it entirely off of confirmed admissions(credible sources) of a country supporting proxies in enemy country. Was I wrong to use credible evidence?
> 
> 
> It's fine if u want to hide behind semantics. I can clearly see how Pakistani lives that were lost at the hands of Indian sponsored/armed Mukti Bahini is completely ok bcuz "UN and the rest of the world doesn't see [MB as a terrorist organizaton]", whereas if Indian lives are lost at the hands of Pakistani sponsored/armed JeM and LeT then Pak is the devil. Makes complete sense


You should complain to your own government, declare Mukti bahini as a terror organisation and decline to recognize the government of bangladesh. Like the rest of the world did for Governement of Taliban (barring a few of-course) . What you are trying to argue is not even substantiated by your own regimes. If government of Pakistan since 70's has not had the conviction to claim MB as a terror organisation, who am I to declare so?

And fyi these are not semantics, these are actual policy decisions of your own state.


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## Cookie Monster

MilSpec said:


> You should complain to your own government, declare Mukti bahini as a terror organisation and decline to recognize the government of bangladesh. Like the rest of the world did for Governement of Taliban (barring a few of-course) . What you are trying to argue is not even substantiated by your own regimes. If government of Pakistan since 70's has not had the conviction to claim MB as a terror organisation, who am I to declare so?


There is no need for that I got my answer and so did many other Pakistanis reading these posts.

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## MilSpec

randomradio said:


> Horribly wrong. Radar is used to detect even junk orbiting earth.
> 
> 
> 
> THAAD is similar to the S-400.
> 
> 
> 
> Which world are you from? North Korea sold ballistic missile technology to Pakistan. The Ghauri 1 was a Korean Nodong. Basically SCUD.
> 
> 
> 
> What shit. We already have these systems.
> 
> 
> 
> We have spaced based detection systems. Had them for nearly 2 decades now.
> 
> 
> 
> S-400 intercepts warheads during decent. Neither of you know what MIRV means.
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant. For it to reach mach 18, it has to be fired from a range of 3000Km from Delhi. Your country ain't that big. You can't target Delhi with the Shaheen. You will have to fire your missile from Turkey if you want to hit Delhi with the Shaheen. It's simple physics.
> 
> Have you ever thrown a ball in your life?
> 
> 
> 
> No, you don't. Or else you wouldn't be asking such a stupid question.



No need, no need , and again no need.

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## Immanuel

Basel said:


> You forgot to mention how MIRVs are use to counter BMD, it is about the RVs what type are used.


MIRVs can be countered regardless of how they deployed, it's all about having plenty of layers and good numbers, with the AAD, PAD and S-400, MIRVs will be shot down.


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## My-Analogous

jaydee said:


> I had exactly same thought.And i won't call it blasphemous since we got surprised twice in past 15 days.An HGV with MIRV,a nightmare for our Arch nemesis.



Hypersonic Glide Vehicle. We need at least 20 years to reach if we start now. But yes why not


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> No, well then that defies the purpose of it's production. Because rotating the whole upper stage would require more powerful vector thrust motor and more fuel which is only possible through development of cryogenics in modern technological platform and cost reduction. Which could rather be used in PBV for quicker orientation and decoy deployment. Otherwise ABM can easily intercept it due to bulkiness of the stage.


Doesn't works like that, but whatever you say.


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## F86 Saber

MilSpec said:


> The premise of the argument is equating conduct of India and Pakistan. The equation's variables being all of the Pakistan's proxies pitted as a subjective counter to Mukti bahini. The insistence being both guerrilla forces being different sides of the same terror coin. My point is quite simple that the argument is not valid because the comparison is between known Terrorist organisation recognised as such by multitude of nations around the world; and Mukti Bahini which even Pakistan, a nation that MB dealt the final blows to doesn't concede as a terrorist entity. You might perceive it as the same, and to you the argument may be valid, but India, bangladesh, UN and the rest of the world doesn't see it the same way.



Mukti Bahini were never declared as terrorists for two reasons

1. Their existence and violent struggle lasted from 25th March 1971 to 16th December 1971, a short period after which they came into power in an independent Bangladesh and ended their violent struggle. If Pakistan Army was fighting against them, they were of course considered hostile however after they into power, there was no point for Pakistan to declare it as a terrorist group so in order to do some damage control, Pakistani Govt. of that time accepted Bangladesh as a country. 

2. Usually, organizations who are struggling internally against a country for their rights are not declared as terrorist organizations by the UN, some examples from your own backyard are ULFA (which is put as a group of concern by UN but not as a terrorist group), CPI/PLGA, Khalitan Movement etc.

The fact remains that India helped Mukti Bahini by arming them and providing them with manpower, shelter and support and Modi admitted to that recently. He admitted that Indian Army soldiers fought side by side with Mukti Bahini, How different is that to Pakistan supporting LeT and JuD?

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Doesn't works like that, but whatever you say.



you can't beat me in my subject


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## Shaji Pappan

F86 Saber said:


> He admitted that Indian Army soldiers fought side by side with Mukti Bahini, How different is that to Pakistan supporting LeT and JuD?


If there is no difference between these, Pakistan's support of LeT and JuD cause next war.. Because Western Pakistan attacked India for our support of Mukti Bahini, so we have every right to attack Pakistan because of their support to LeT & JuD (according to your logic)..


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## Mrc

Immanuel said:


> MIRVs can be countered regardless of how they deployed, it's all about having plenty of layers and good numbers, with the AAD, PAD and S-400, MIRVs will be shot down.




They will fall like flys infront of your mighty shields ... dont worry

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## HRK

MilSpec said:


> *I don't want a Mutually agreed escalation ladder at all.*



So that end the discussion ..... & I think We find ourselves in agreement to welcome each other in hell ....


MilSpec said:


> AIML was the exact mirror of Hindu Mahasabha (today's equivalent of Sangh). Both organisation were non-secular religious right movements.Aiml wanted Muslim home land - pakistan , Sangh wanted Hindu Rashtra - bharat,
> AIML's direct action day won , Sangh lost.



But history prove the political contenders were Congress & AIML ... not b/w AIML & Sangha or Hindu Mahasabha plz don't rewrite the history ....


MilSpec said:


> Read BJP's manifesto, there is no commonality with any of Sangh Parrivars rhetoric.



& Manifesto of a Political party is a matter of INTERNATIONAL INTEREST ...???
don't they have Common Interest ...??
Common ideology ...??
Wanna Denny ... ???

BTW How many times do I have to remind you that I do not belong to Internal Audience of India .... are these sensible augments ... ??

Are these addressing any of the Single Query I raised ... ??



MilSpec said:


> Actually, We have been living in the AIML's progeny in our neighborhood since day one, but 70 yrs later the thought of a Sangh entity in power in India is a Global threat. Ohh the irony


No Sir the Irony is that we are living in subcontinent form 1000 years but if some one name his/her children Taimur it become a NATIONAL ISSUE .... *this Mentality & Attitude which should not be Questioned & MUST BE TRUSTED WITH NUCLEAR RESPONSIBILITY  *

plz come down form you higher horses .....



MilSpec said:


> As the constitution has not been changed and the government that was sworn in abides by the secular constitution of India.


& What is in Practice ... ???
*Is India a PRACTICING SECULAR SOCIETY ...??*


MilSpec said:


> *A Populist right wing Secular constitutional legally democratically elected government. Not neo-nationalist, but a nationalist democratic party. *



BJP & Sangh Parrivar represent Secular INDIA .... ??

hahaha ....

& for Democracy part even Hitler was democratically Elected .... its your own people who are saying this not me ....
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...i-cm-arvind-kejriwal/articleshow/56790393.cms


MilSpec said:


> Article 352 of the Indian Constitution.


 yes it does. *Again a democracy, not a theocracy.*[/QUOTE]
Where was that constitution at the time of Siachen ...

What role democratic parties of India played at that time ... ??



MilSpec said:


> *If one nation acts irresponsible it has to pay for it. *


Even if one Nation will acts irresponsibly *BOTH THE NATION WILL HAVE TO PAY*


MilSpec said:


> And, it is what it is, a deployment strategy for faster deployment of troops. It is one of the doctrines of deployment, doesn't mean it's the only one. Our defensive paradigm is not based on any specific country.



*Deployment for what Mass Vacations .... ??*
Are you reading your own post .... ??
Are they justifying the informative, intelligent & intellectual level for which you are known ...??



MilSpec said:


> In democracy, even the presidents birth certificate can be questioned, a stated policy is not beyond questioning, India has not revoked it's position on NFU.



India has not revoked it's position on *NFU but the question is till what time* .... ??

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## danger007

Mrc said:


> They will fall like flys infront of your mighty shields ... dont worry




Don't let the flies fall on you. BTW 2000++ MIRV missile .. hmmmm


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## Taimoor Khan

DavidSling said:


> Pakistan don't want Israel as it's enemy and vise versa, stop talking no sense.



Who says you are our enemy, at the moment? However, what future holds, no one knows. At the moment you are our insurance policy against the America. I am not talking rocket science here, just a fact of dirty old geopolitics. As I said, our mortal enemy India got the best you can offer, so its natural for us to compare our capabilities with the original manufacturer. 

Funny thing is, ever since Indian-Israel cooperation grew in leaps and bound, Pakistan which had only modest Ghauri Missiles as its top tier nuke delivery system, now have expanded its missile inventory with ranges going way beyond Israel, NOT by design, but by default and circumstances. By contributing into India's military strength, Israel has indirectly jeopardize its own security. Whoever is coming up with these reckless policies in Israel need to get their heads checked. Its not like Pakistan is arming hezbullah!

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## F86 Saber

Shaji Pappan said:


> If there is no difference between these, Pakistan's support of LeT and JuD cause next war.. Because Western Pakistan attacked India for our support of Mukti Bahini, so we have every right to attack Pakistan because of their support to LeT & JuD (according to your logic)..



So are you admitting what your countryman was arguing against? Are you admit to Indian involvement in destabilization of Pakistan throughout history? 

India would have escalated the Kargil war, attacked Pakistan in 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2016 if it wasn't for the nuclear deterrent. There wouldn't be a next war because if there is, there wouldn't be a sub continent left to live in.

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## DavidSling

Taimoor Khan said:


> Who says you are our enemy, at the moment? However, what future holds, no one knows. At the moment you are our insurance policy against the America. I am not talking rocket science here, just a fact of dirty old geopolitics. As I said, our mortal enemy India got the best you can offer, so its natural for us to compare our capabilities with the original manufacturer.
> 
> Funny thing is, ever since Indian-Israel cooperation grew in leaps and bound, Pakistan which had only modest Ghauri Missiles as its top tier nuke delivery system, now have expanded its missile inventory with ranges going way beyond Israel, NOT by design, but by default and circumstances. By contributing into India's military strength, Israel has indirectly jeopardize its own security. Whoever is coming up with these reckless policies in Israel need to get their heads checked. Its not like Pakistan is arming hezbullah!


I can say the same for the muslim world.
Your threats toward Israel only made it stronger, now possessing jericho missiles with reported ranges of 10k km range and nuclear warheads.
Pakistani people usually talk like they hold all the decks, which is nowhere close to reality

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## Shaji Pappan

F86 Saber said:


> So are you admitting what your countryman was arguing against? Are you admit to Indian involvement in destabilization of Pakistan throughout history?
> 
> India would have escalated the Kargil war, attacked Pakistan in 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2016 if it wasn't for the nuclear deterrent. There wouldn't be a next war because if there is, there wouldn't be a sub continent left to live in.


Obviously Pak nukes helped subcontinent from some serious clashes between India &Pakistan.. Especially in 1999,2001&2008.. But silly terrorist attacks like Parliament attack, Mumbai, Uri etc seriously damaged the value of your deterrent..


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## F86 Saber

Shaji Pappan said:


> Obviously Pak nukes helped subcontinent from some serious clashes between India &Pakistan.. Especially in 1999,2001&2008.. But silly terrorist attacks like Parliament attack, Mumbai, Uri etc seriously damaged the value of your deterrent..



Basically our nukes reduced India to proxy war only and enabled us to respond befittingly to it.


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## Taimoor Khan

DavidSling said:


> I can say the same for the muslim world.
> Your threats toward Israel only made it stronger, now possessing jericho missiles with reported ranges of 10k km range and nuclear warheads.
> Pakistani people usually talk like they hold all the decks, which is nowhere close to reality



We are not Muslim world, we are Pakistan. 

How come you have become stronger? A decade ago, you had those Jericho missiles which can hit anywhere in Pakistan without Pakistan replying in kind. But thanks to your country reckless contribution towards Indian military expansion, we have now increased our Arsenal and its range so much so that you lot are well within our range, as a consequence of Indian military expansion. 10k Km missiles doesnt effect us, you already had that capability, its us who have done the catch up on you, unintentionally, thanks to your country wrong strategic choices.

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## Mrc

Agreed with above...

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## DavidSling

Taimoor Khan said:


> We are not Muslim world, we are Pakistan.
> 
> How come you have become stronger? A decade ago, you had those Jericho missiles which can hit anywhere in Pakistan without Pakistan replying in kind. But thanks to your country reckless contribution towards Indian military expansion, we have now increased our Arsenal and its range so much so that you lot are well within our range, as a consequence of Indian military expansion. 10k Km missiles doesnt effect us, you already had that capability, its us who have done the catch up on you, unintentionally, thanks to your country wrong strategic choices.


Iron Fist, Iron Dome, Trophy, F-35, Arrow 3, David Sling and alot more, should I continue? Like I said before, u think u're holding all the card in the deck, while everybody already surpassed u technology wise.

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## shhh

HAKIKAT said:


> Horse's mouth...



Lol.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mrc said:


> Caz we dont have 12000 km between us... your reaction time is next to nothing....


Sir,
You misunderstood what i wanted to know. You had stated theoretically 90 sec to intercept will be available. 

I wanted to know how you came to this because what little I know of is even if launch is detected human brain would register it in 20sec. Then the reaction would follow which would not be less then 90sec. This is knowing the close proximity.


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## Mrc

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> You misunderstood what i wanted to know. You had stated theoretically 90 sec to intercept will be available.
> 
> I wanted to know how you came to this because what little I know of is even if launch is detected human brain would register it in 20sec. Then the reaction would follow which would not be less then 90sec. This is knowing the close proximity.



Thats time to burn first stage ... by that time missile is out of atmosphere and too fast for a chase

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## ACE OF THE AIR

The Deterrent said:


> No, reaching max apogee is not a pre-requisite.
> 
> Again, since it was a test flight, a lofted trajectory must have been planned. How did you arrive at the conclusion of payload being nil? Trajectories can be varied with the same payload, it doesn't works like a hand-held slingshot.


Sir, 
I know there would be payload but tests are usually conducted using a lesser payload then what might be the designed payload. 

Your answer in the first line cleared my confusion.


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## Nefarious

Most if not all of Pakistan's lethal weapons have come from its hostilities with India. Although Pakistan and Israel don't have relations and openly hostile ones at that, it's best if they avoid confrontation. Although at the same time this may prove difficult as Israel is arming Pakistan's arch enemy.

This isn't a bad thing as Israel makes good stuff and so this pushes Pakistan to innovate aswell. With the economy picking up,tight relations with China and a maturing home defence projects, delivery systems will continue to improve.

Second strike capability was major as you should never put preemptive nuclear strikes past any country. Especially jittery aggressive and paranoid ones worried about their existence whilst being run run by extremists.

Missile defences are good but nothing is 100℅. Pakistan has to innovate delivery systems and implement these into their sea based deterrent. Recent news definately shows this.

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## My-Analogous

Mo12 said:


> why do some countries invest so heavily into BMD, when nations could just fire a MIRV then?



*The problem of defense against MIRVs*




Testing of the LGM-118A Peacekeeper re-entry vehicles, all eight shot from only one missile. Each line represents the path of a warhead which, were it live, would detonate with the explosive power of twenty-five Hiroshima-style weapons.

Conditions changed dramatically in 1970 with the introduction of Multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle (MIRV) warheads. Suddenly, each launcher was throwing not one warhead, but several. These would spread out in space, ensuring that a single interceptor would be needed for each warhead. This simply added to the need to have several interceptors for each warhead in order to provide geographical coverage. Now it was clear that an ABM system would always be many times more expensive than the ICBMs they defended against_.

These War heads will fall like a rain and it will make very difficult to an ABM to engage them












_

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## Immanuel

Mrc said:


> They will fall like flys infront of your mighty shields ... dont worry


 
Atleast we are working a quite an impregnable shield, you have no defense even against basic 25 year old Prithvis in our inventory.



Mombati said:


> To intercept MiRV is currently no possible but there are some speculations that IRBM MiRV missile could be intercept within the first phase of flight.
> 
> S-400 near the border could create problems for Ababeel 1 but who will stupid enough to put the prized weapon like S-400 near the border under the direct strike range of P.A / P.A.F?
> 
> So chances to intercept Ababeel 1 by Indian is currently zero even deliveries of such system still not start.
> @Oscar
> 
> I used to read your posts as a guest and always like the detailed insight, what you say about this.



Firstly you and what army can take down the S-400 even if it's placed close enough to the border, if war is pushed, even taking off can become a hassle for PAF. Each battery of S-400 fire units are guarded by a battery of Pantsir unit and S-400 can easily shoot down ARMs so good luck. Let alone, the path to the S-400 system will be littered with Akash and Spyder SAMs. With MKIs, Rafales policing the sky, PAF will dig it's grave faster than a rabbit gets humped.

As for PA, how far will they get really, they will be running in shambles once IA opens up with Arty, Pinaka, Brahmos and others.

Again this missile at best if anything probably has MRVs, are they MIRVs, nah. Even so, such missiles with limited ranges being deployed from limited ranges allows for rather predictable flight paths, also dispersion at such ranges won't be more than few 10s of miles, with system like ADD, PAD and S-400 we have the ability to deploy fire units over a wide area and we have enough missiles to expense to shoot down such targets. Moreso, the point here is, even is 1 gets through, India is big enough to survive, in the meanwhile ya'll are toast, and all it takes is a barrage of 25 year old Prithvis to wipe out Pak to a good measure.


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## Tiger Awan

Immanuel said:


> Atleast we are working a quite an impregnable shield, you have no defense even against basic 25 year old Prithvis in our inventory.



We are working efficiently, our missiles are keeping Indian aggression in check. If God forbids a war mutual destruction is assured. So you can satisfy yourself with your impregnable shield and hard work and lots of money spent, at the end of the day it isnt making a difference

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## Immanuel

It's quite simple really, PA is so scared of IA that they had to deploy need tac nukes to stop our strike columns.



Tiger Awan said:


> We are working efficiently, our missiles are keeping Indian aggression in check. If God forbids a war mutual destruction is assured. So you can satisfy yourself with your impregnable shield and hard work and lots of money spent, at the end of the day it isnt making a difference



Keep thinking that, in reality Pak will be wiped out while India will survive, the land mass is too big, the population big enough and with a good shield in place. Most of your missiles wont' make beyond your border



Tiger Awan said:


> We are working efficiently, our missiles are keeping Indian aggression in check. If God forbids a war mutual destruction is assured. So you can satisfy yourself with your impregnable shield and hard work and lots of money spent, at the end of the day it isnt making a difference



How are your missiles keeping Indian aggression in check really? Your DGMO came running for talks when things got too hot last year.


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## Tiger Awan

Immanuel said:


> Keep thinking that, in reality *Pak will be wiped out while India will survive, the land mass is too big, the population big enough and with a good shield in place. Most of your missiles wont' make beyond your border*
> 
> How are your missiles keeping Indian aggression in check really? Your DGMO came running for talks when things got too hot last year.



Bold part 

My bad, should have started this discussion with you 

The "Satellite Imagery Expert" of India has finally find out how we developed Ababeel 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/824620956144508928


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## Pyara9

randomradio said:


> Horribly wrong. Radar is used to detect even junk orbiting earth.
> 
> 
> 
> THAAD is similar to the S-400.
> 
> 
> 
> Which world are you from? North Korea sold ballistic missile technology to Pakistan. The Ghauri 1 was a Korean Nodong. Basically SCUD.
> 
> 
> 
> What shit. We already have these systems.
> 
> 
> 
> We have spaced based detection systems. Had them for nearly 2 decades now.
> 
> 
> 
> S-400 intercepts warheads during decent. Neither of you know what MIRV means.
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant. For it to reach mach 18, it has to be fired from a range of 3000Km from Delhi. Your country ain't that big. You can't target Delhi with the Shaheen. You will have to fire your missile from Turkey if you want to hit Delhi with the Shaheen. It's simple physics.
> 
> Have you ever thrown a ball in your life?
> 
> 
> 
> No, you don't. Or else you wouldn't be asking such a stupid question.



Instead of pretending to be the lead engineer on s-400 and bore me with ur theories. Why is it so difficult for u to provide proof ?? surly russians advertise the capabilities of their system.. I just want to see it. If you're really the genius ur claming to be and educate us Pakistani on how these system work. Why don't you go n build one for your country? Why did India have to buy s-400 when it has a genius like you around?? lol

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## HRK

Tiger Awan said:


> Bold part
> 
> My bad, should have started this discussion with you
> 
> The "Satellite Imagery Expert" of India has finally find out how we developed Ababeel
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/824620956144508928



He is mistaken again it was March 3B Rocket ..... 

Plz share this with him a more similar Bus & we are acknowledging it by placing our Flag & emblem of SUPARCO on it ....






Plz someone should ask him does he know the specification of the kuaizhou-1a which supposedly can carry *only 200-300 KG payload* .... on the other hand even S-II is capable of carring the 1000 Kg payload in unitary warhead configuration & He think a 3 MIRV payload will around 200- to 300 Kg .... ???

What an idiot .... he is ....

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## The Deterrent

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> I know there would be payload but tests are usually conducted using a lesser payload then what might be the designed payload.
> 
> Your answer in the first line cleared my confusion.


No they are not, using lesser payload defies the purpose of the test in the first place.

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## HRK

Mombati said:


> How many warheads Ababeel 1 can carry in max configuration.



supposedly three ...


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> you can't beat me in my subject


Yupp, you win .

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## saiyan0321

HRK said:


> He is mistaken again it was March 3B Rocket .....
> 
> Plz share this with him a more similar Bus & we are acknowledging it by placing our Flag & emblem of SUPARCO on it ....
> View attachment 372057
> 
> 
> 
> Plz someone should ask him does he know the specification of the kuaizhou-1a which supposedly can carry *only 200-300 KG payload* .... on the other hand even S-II is capable of carring the 1000 Kg payload in unitary warhead configuration & He think a 3 MIRV payload will around 200- to 300 Kg .... ???
> 
> What an idiot .... he is ....



There is no point. They are bombarded by their media left right and center about a specific image about Pakistan. That image is that Pakistan is controlled by its army and has massive religious and ethnic and provincial fault lines and is about to be broken and balkanized. On top of it all they believe that any achievement whether scientific or military or strategic comes from either north Korea or China and pakistan is a slave ready to be eaten by China. With this it creates an image. A massive image that they subconsciously have to protect and thus use these excuses as a means to protect that mental image. 

So whenever we acheive anything. A jet fighter, a tank, a submarine launched cruise missile or MIRV they come up with these excuses without any proof, senseless rantings and pathetic points. Classic case of brainwashing through media. Its quite interesting actually. How just a few outlets and channels can create an opinion provided there is no other voice in the contrast.

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## The Deterrent

Tiger Awan said:


> Bold part
> 
> My bad, should have started this discussion with you
> 
> The "Satellite Imagery Expert" of India has finally find out how we developed Ababeel
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/824620956144508928



1. KZ-1A has a max payload fairing diameter of 1.4m but Ababeel/Shaheen-II/III all have a base diameter of 1.4m, so Ababeel's fairing is much larger at 1.7-1.8m.
2. KZ-1A's payload capacity is 200kg to a 700km orbit, which is far far less than Ababeel's probable payload of 3xMIRVs touching ~600km apogee.



The Deterrent said:


> Edit: I don't know what kind of fits these morons will throw after we unveil the MIRVed system. Let me write before-hand some things that they will say:
> 1. Its just an SLV.
> 2. It just jettisons multiple warheads, they are not guided because pakis don't have any knowledge of independent trajectory insertions.
> 3. It looks so fragile, its not mobile.
> 4. The range is not enough for independent trajectory insertions.
> 5. China gifted it to Pakistan.
> and so on.


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...m-submarine-ispr.471649/page-68#ixzz4Wsydntrc

So far 1,2,4,5 have been claimed. I feel like Nostradamus.

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## saiyan0321

The Deterrent said:


> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...m-submarine-ispr.471649/page-68#ixzz4Wsydntrc
> 
> So far 1,2,4,5 have been said. I feel like Nostradamus.



No points for number 5. Number 5 was as obvious as predicting that tomorrow the sun will rise. Number 5 always happens. It happened even with babur3  :p :p :p

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## Tiger Awan

HRK said:


> He is mistaken again it was March 3B Rocket .....
> 
> Plz share this with him a more similar Bus & we are acknowledging it by placing our Flag & emblem of SUPARCO on it ....
> View attachment 372057
> 
> 
> 
> Plz someone should ask him does he know the specification of the kuaizhou-1a which supposedly can carry *only 200-300 KG payload* .... on the other hand even S-II is capable of carring the 1000 Kg payload in unitary warhead configuration & He think a 3 MIRV payload will around 200- to 300 Kg .... ???
> 
> What an idiot .... he is ....



Have confronted him in past too but he simply doesn't reply. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/824660305246650369

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## Basel

Immanuel said:


> MIRVs can be countered regardless of how they deployed, it's all about having plenty of layers and good numbers, with the AAD, PAD and S-400, MIRVs will be shot down.



Same can be said about ABM & Air defense that those can be countered too.


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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> No they are not, using lesser payload defies the purpose of the test in the first place.



So as per you there were three warheads.


Only this much area is marked as danger zone by NOTAM for three MIRV warheads? Confusing and defies the basic technicality of a MIRV warhead test.







This is K4 SLBM NOTAM issued for 31st Jan test. Not sure whether one warhead or multiple. Normally multiple warhead require minimum 2000 sq km area for 3 warheads. Because THEY DISPERCE!


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## Safriz

ShoutB said:


> So as per you there were three warheads.
> 
> 
> Only this much area is marked as danger zone by NOTAM for three MIRV warheads? Confusing and defies the basic technicality of a MIRV warhead test.
> 
> View attachment 372110
> 
> 
> 
> This is K4 SLBM NOTAM issued for 31st Jan test. Not sure whether one warhead or multiple. Normally multiple warhead require minimum 2000 sq km area for 3 warheads. Because THEY DISPERCE!
> 
> View attachment 372119


MIRV can be dispensed in a linear pattern,nothing wrong here.


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## ShoutB

شاھین میزایل said:


> MIRV can be dispensed in a linear pattern,nothing wrong here.



Not when the missile is less than 3000km range.


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> So as per you there were three warheads.
> 
> 
> Only this much area is marked as danger zone by NOTAM for three MIRV warheads? Confusing and defies the basic technicality of a MIRV warhead test.
> 
> View attachment 372110
> 
> 
> 
> This is K4 SLBM NOTAM issued for 31st Jan test. Not sure whether one warhead or multiple. Normally multiple warhead require minimum 2000 sq km area for 3 warheads. Because THEY DISPERCE!
> 
> View attachment 372119


Hey little man, I already told you that you won. Do you need a prize or something?

BTW, 1st test = covers the basics = RVs jettisoned around the same target. 
And nope, DRDO's NAVAREA warnings for BMs have always been like this...triangular. Be it A-4/A-5/K-4, all of which deliver unitary warhead.

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Hey little man, I already told you that you won. Do you need a prize or something?
> 
> BTW, 1st test = covers the basics = RVs jettisoned around the same target.
> And nope, DRDO's NAVAREA warnings for BMs have always been like this...triangular. Be it A-4/A-5/K-4, all of which deliver unitary warhead.



Indian warheads have IRNSS in use and this means better performance and CEP close to zero this means are we testing MIRV?

Secondly, RV jettisoned around same target? So the Post boost Vehicle used cryogenics to stay stationary? or dropped all in one go?


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## MilSpec

F86 Saber said:


> Mukti Bahini were never declared as terrorists for two reasons
> 
> 1. Their existence and violent struggle lasted from 25th March 1971 to 16th December 1971, a short period after which they came into power in an independent Bangladesh and ended their violent struggle. If Pakistan Army was fighting against them, they were of course considered hostile however after they into power, there was no point for Pakistan to declare it as a terrorist group so in order to do some damage control, Pakistani Govt. of that time accepted Bangladesh as a country.


that is your country prerogative. As I said, the rest of the world and your own government in policy does not view Mukti Bahini as a terror entity, and neither does it see Bangladesh as a Terrorist Country. 



F86 Saber said:


> 2. Usually, organizations who are struggling internally against a country for their rights are not declared as terrorist organizations by the UN, some examples from your own backyard are ULFA (which is put as a group of concern by UN but not as a terrorist group), CPI/PLGA, Khalitan Movement etc.


Lashkar a taibba and JeM are formed of Pakistani nationals who are stuggling for rights of Indians in Kahsmir? Mukti Bahini was supported by India, but formed of Bangladeshis not indians, The chief of MB was not an Indian. These terrorist organisations that take pride in carnage in Mumbai, Dehi, Pune etc, are not struggling for anyone's rights. they are a cost effective mechanism of inflicting damage in India by Pakistani proxies. 



F86 Saber said:


> The fact remains that India helped Mukti Bahini by arming them and providing them with manpower, shelter and support and Modi admitted to that recently. He admitted that Indian Army soldiers fought side by side with Mukti Bahini, How different is that to Pakistan supporting LeT and JuD?



Who has ever denied that, your general signed the instrument of surrender to Gen Arora, ofcourse Indian fought side by side with MB. 

It is different, because its not just LeT and JuD, it is also Taliban, Al Qaida, Hakat Ul Mujhahideen, Al Badr, Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, Hizbul Mujhahideen, Harkat ul jihadi al islami, harkat ul ansar to name a few. What is exactly the common cause between all of these organisation irrespective of the theater the operate in?
Apart from that most of the organisations that Pakistan supports and promotes are recognized by UN and other major powers as terror organisations. 

How about your government put it money where it's mouth is. 

So either try to move the international community to move against India and Bangladesh by launching an effort to declare MB and its state as terrorists or plead the case for LET/JEM/HUJI/AB/JKLF/HuM all as freedom fighters and get them removed from all control lists.

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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> Indian warheads have IRNSS in use and this means better performance and CEP close to zero this means are we testing MIRV?
> 
> Secondly, RV jettisoned around same target? So the Post boost Vehicle used cryogenics to stay stationary? or dropped all in one go?


CEP after re-entry is close to zero? Please burn your engineering degree.

No it performed a _lungi-dance_ to troll the Indian officials 'monitoring' the test on their LRTR radar screens.

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## Bratva

The Deterrent said:


> 1. KZ-1A has a max payload fairing diameter of 1.4m but Ababeel/Shaheen-II/III all have a base diameter of 1.4m, so Ababeel's fairing is much larger at 1.7-1.8m.
> 2. KZ-1A's payload capacity is 200kg to a 700km orbit, which is far far less than Ababeel's probable payload of 3xMIRVs touching ~600km apogee.
> 
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...m-submarine-ispr.471649/page-68#ixzz4Wsydntrc
> 
> So far 1,2,4,5 have been claimed. *I feel like Nostradamus*.



Green Ankho waalay Dandany Wali sarkar ki hakoomat kab aa rahi Pakistan mai ?

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## The Deterrent

Bratva said:


> Green Ankho waalay Dandany Wali sarkar ki hakoomat kab aa rahi Pakistan mai ?


_Peeron ka mazaq nai uratay, un ki pohnch boht ooper tak hoti hai_.

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> CEP after re-entry is close to zero? Please burn your engineering degree.
> 
> No it performed a _lungi-dance_ to troll the Indian officials 'monitoring' the test on their LRTR radar screens.




When your MIRV's can be linearly dispensed so perfectly that all hit at same target in the first test , subhanallah , well we Indians have our own satellites ( which you don't have) to guide the missile and RV so it Should be better than yours

Close to zero =! zero
Or not?


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> When your MIRV's can be linearly dispensed so perfectly that all hit at same target in the first test , subhanallah , well we Indians have our own satellites ( which you don't have) to guide the missile and RV so it Should be better than yours
> 
> Close to zero =! zero
> Or not?


Around != same.


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## My-Analogous

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> How many coungtries have MIRVs begin with?
> 
> Only the *United States, United Kingdom, Russia,France*,and *China* *AND NOW PAKISTAN.*


Please add Israel in it



ShoutB said:


> When your MIRV's can be linearly dispensed so perfectly that all hit at same target in the first test , subhanallah , well we Indians have our own satellites ( which you don't have) to guide the missile and RV so it Should be better than yours
> 
> Close to zero =! zero
> Or not?



Well my dear Indian, even US need 5 mins to response any missile thread let alone MIRV missile, tell me are you more advance then US?


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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Around != same.



no
if you had learnt limits in 12th .. this does not mean same.. it tends to approach zero but is never zero. And close to zero is 10 more than 20 and 2 more than 30 meters.


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## Basel

Mombati said:


> To intercept MiRV is currently no possible but there are some speculations that IRBM MiRV missile could be intercept within the first phase of flight.
> 
> S-400 near the border could create problems for Ababeel 1 but who will stupid enough to put the prized weapon like S-400 near the border under the direct strike range of P.A / P.A.F?
> 
> So chances to intercept Ababeel 1 by Indian is currently zero even deliveries of such system still not start.
> @Oscar
> 
> I used to read your posts as a guest and always like the detailed insight, what you say about this.



S-400 near border will be primary target of Pakistani stand off munitions so not that easy to bring S-400 near border.


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> no
> if you had learnt limits in 12th .. this does not mean same.. it tends to approach zero but is never zero. And close to zero is 10 more than 20 and 2 more than 30 meters.

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## Areesh

MilSpec said:


> that is your country prerogative. As I said, the rest of the world and your own government in policy does not view Mukti Bahini as a terror entity, and neither does it see Bangladesh as a Terrorist Country.



Indian logic 101.

If Pakistani government didn't consider Mukiti Bahini terrorists then why it started a military operation against it?

And if Mukiti bahini is not terrorists because rest of the world didn't consider them terrorists then why Indian state, government and media considers militants of Manipur, Assam and other North Eastern states as terrorists? Rest of the world don't consider ULFA as terrorists either.

India your name is hypocrisy.

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## My-Analogous

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Guys...S-400 is still a threat for our Air force...
> 
> We need to counter S-400 as well...



I read the S400's 40N6 400 km range missile is only mainly for attacking bombers and AWACs. Its 9M96E2 missile (the most maneuverable and most capable one for attacking fast and maneuverable targets like fighter or ballistic missiles) only has a max range 120km((http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html#9M96E ) plus Russian source if you don't want to trust Ausairpower) http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/s400/s400.shtml ). The 9M96E2 only flies around Mach 3 slower than an AMRAAM, and about the same operation range as an AIM-120C-7. Plus 3 times heavier.

Is it even that effective, at let say 50 km at a maneuvering fighter? Because No escape zones are much more less than max range. It is said on Ausairpower it can engage a ballistic missile at 30 km. But unlike a missile a fighter can change direction. Mach 3 isn't really fast enough to chase down a fighter
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html#mozTocId920348

Well it is a threat but not that much that we can't deal with it. We have few goodies that can put S400 existence in big trouble. We have MAR-1, LD10 and Raad missile

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## Comfortably Numb

ShoutB said:


> you can't beat me in my subject


Te ethe ki kar rea ja ja k DRDO nal rall k missile bna O nirbhay shirbhay nu theek kr. Edda tu sciencedaan. Har chhor jera engineering univ vich daakhla lelnda apne aap nu Einstein samajhda. O tu Iphone ijaad kitta?

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## Chanakyaa

Congratulation to Pakistan for this Huge Achievement. What a proud day for Pakistani members. 
Indeed India will now add a new "game changer" element to its Threat Library.

Some Interesting Observations :

- If MIRV was indeed focused on Indian BMD , its safe to assume Pakistan considers Indian BMD as a Genuine Threat , and Defense against its regular Missiles. This means that Indian BMD is on the Right Track else it was pointless to test.

- Indian BMD now needs serious reconsideration and upgrade. 

- Boost Phase Interception will now be a Top Priority.

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


>



you did not explain

How come your RV's hit the target linearly so accurately that the total restricted area was so narrow which does not happen in MIRV test firing, as if testing only one dummy warhead released at 90km height and allowed to free fall to hit a target zone another 700 kms away.


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> you did not explain
> 
> How come your RV's hit the target linearly so accurately that the total restricted area was so narrow which does not happen in MIRV test firing, as if testing only one dummy warhead released at 90km height and allowed to free fall to hit a target zone another 700 kms away.


Read all of my posts on Ababeel, they have all your answers. Until then, avoid coming up with questions that embarrass you.

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Read all of my posts on Ababeel, they have all your answers. Until then, avoid coming up with questions that embarrass you.



No personal comments

I read your all posts.

only this one is where you made something relevant to thread.



> Going by the limits of the NAVAREA warning, MIRVs would have been deployed as MRVs, in this test. Besides, since this was the first test of the system, it was flown on a much lofted trajectory and much lesser ranger (~1100km), and the focus was on validating performance of all 3 stages and successful ejection of MIRVs.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/ababeel-ssm-pakistan-gains-mirv-technology.474136/page-70#ixzz4WtdxWCRK



Going by the limit of NAVERA warning it means only one warhead was used.

If MIRVd
The missile is 3 staged and one PBV. This means the missile has released the RV somewhere close to 1500kms from Launchpad. And the PBV travelled another 300 kms to reach the hostile airspace. so not it is at 1800 kms.

For RVs to reach and hit 2200km mark , it should be released NOW. Because the ballistic coefficient (ß) needs to be between 1000 -5000 other wise either the warhead will burn while re entry or will lose the speed and fall off the sky( ß = lower than 1000) taking shape to be conical/blunt. The RV with above coefficient would travel another 280-310 kms before hitting the zone.

Now:
There won't be time left to release another two warheads as they will now either burn while re entry or not fall on the target or bounce back in space.

So there fore this missile for surely tested with single warhead/ no warhead.

Because this distance is too short for a ballistic coefficient (ß) to be between 1000-5000 which modern MIRV warheads have. The warhead will burn in the atmosphere during re entry because the angle of attack would be steep close to 75 degrees for this distance. And there won't be much time left to release the second one as the angle would be steeper or too flat.

This is why MIRV is used for ICBM or 3000+ km range! But for MRV equation is balanced.


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> Going by the limit of NAVERA warning it means only one warhead was used.


Nope, it does not means that. The closed corridor was 50km wide. MIRVs can be ejected as MRVs several kilometers apart for the first test.


> If MIRVd
> The missile is 3 staged and one PBV. This means the missile has released the RV somewhere close to 1500kms from Launchpad. And the PBV travelled another 300 kms to reach the hostile airspace. so not it is at 1800 kms.


1. The missile didn't even travel to 2200km. In this test, it flew a mere 1100km.
2. RV (Re-entry vehicle) IS NOT the big manhood you see. RVs are what's inside it (3 of them). The PBV (post-boost vehicle) is the part with a small stage and MIRV bus.
3. PBV begins course adjustments as soon as boost-phase ends. Immediately after that, it executes pitch maneuvers and begins injecting the RVs in their respective sub-orbital trajectories. This happens BEFORE the PBV reaches apogee, not after reaching 'hostile space'.



> For RVs to reach and hit 2200km mark , it should be released NOW. Because the ballistic coefficient (ß) needs to be between 1000 -5000 other wise either the warhead will burn while re entry or will lose the speed and fall off the sky( ß = lower than 1000) taking shape to be conical/blunt. The RV with above coefficient would travel another 280-310 kms before hitting the zone.
> 
> 
> Now:
> There won't be time left to release another two warheads as they will now either burn while re entry or not fall on the target or bounce back in space.
> 
> So there fore this missile for surely tested with single warhead/ no warhead.
> 
> Because this distance is too short for a ballistic coefficient (ß) to be between 1000-5000 which modern MIRV warheads have. The warhead will burn in the atmosphere during re entry because the angle of attack would be steep close to 75 degrees for this distance. And there won't be much time left to release the second one as the angle would be steeper or too flat.
> 
> This is why MIRV is used for ICBM or 3000+ km range! But for MRV equation is balanced.


Your estimation of ballistic coefficient is incorrect.

You just discredited NESCOM's years of R&D with a single post. Kudos!
Told you not to embarrass yourself.

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Your estimation of ballistic coefficient is incorrect.



this is not my estimation but experimental
ß for MIRVd warheads is 1000 -5000


The Deterrent said:


> 1. The missile didn't even travel to 2200km. In this test, it flew a mere 1100km.



if it flew for 1100km this means the war heads were released when the missile was already 700km in down range and altitude close to 150kms. This means there was no bus hence not MIRVd.

For this trajectory which would be extremely steep close to 55-60 degrees ( re entry angle) value of ballistic coefficient would be more than 5000 to reach 1100km. And the time taken would be 1-2 mins. And second warhead would not be present because then the bus would have crossed limit for releasing the warhead to reach 1100km down range but if now released it will fall 1500km. But due to earth gravitation, the MIRV has to slower it's speed for de orbiting which did not happen and no warhead hit 2200km as per your claim.



The Deterrent said:


> PBV begins course adjustments as soon as boost-phase ends. Immediately after that, it executes pitch maneuvers and begins injecting the RVs in their respective sub-orbital trajectories. This happens BEFORE the PBV reaches apogee, not after reaching 'hostile space'.



for India it will be already in hostile environment dude lol


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## The Deterrent

ShoutB said:


> this is not my estimation but experimental
> ß for MIRVd warheads is 1000 -5000


Did you get an official document from NESCOM stating that the ballistic coefficient of Ababeel's RVs is >1000? Did you?
No. You read an online source about US/Russian MIRVs, assuming that Pakistan's was in the same class.


> if it flew for 1100km this means the war heads were released when the missile was already 700km in down range and altitude close to 150kms. This means there was no bus hence not MIRVd.
> 
> For this trajectory which would be extremely steep close to 55-60 degrees ( re entry angle) value of ballistic coefficient would be more than 5000 to reach 1100km. And the time taken would be 1-2 mins. And second warhead would not be present because then the bus would have crossed limit for releasing the warhead to reach 1100km down but if now released it will fall 1500km. But due to earth gravitation, the MIRV has to slower it's speed for de orbiting which did not happen and no warhead hit 2200km as per your claim.



It does not means what YOU want it to mean. You have absolutely no idea at which altitude the MIRVs are jettisoned. You are constantly assuming that somehow only lateral range is related to the MIRV jettisoning calculations.

Stop ridiculing yourself, and research the topic at hand before going off at tangents grabbing on to whatever technical terms you remember from your time in Europe.

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## ShoutB

The Deterrent said:


> Did you get an official document from NESCOM stating that the ballistic coefficient of Ababeel's RVs is >1000? Did you?
> No. You read an online source about US/Russian MIRVs, assuming that Pakistan's was in the same class.



For any shape if the ballistic coefficient is less than 1000 and range is 1000+ km and velocity is 4km/s it will fall off the sky like a stone it will reduce it's velocity. This is dynamic of atmospheric re entry .. on earth.



The Deterrent said:


> It does not means what YOU want it to mean. You have absolutely no idea at which altitude the MIRVs are jettisoned. You are constantly assuming that somehow only lateral range is related to the MIRV jettisoning calculations.
> 
> Stop ridiculing yourself, and research the topic at hand before going off at tangents grabbing on to whatever technical terms you remember from your time in Europe.



any RV cannot re enter the atmosphere whenever you want. There are certain figures and parameters which are required to maintain.

Even if I agree that it is MIRVd then it cannot release more than one warhead within 1100km range and if all three are released at once then it defies the logic of MIRV because MRV do better job than this. This is why MIRV technology is for 3000+ range missiles to reduce the cost.


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## HRK

Mombati said:


> On another forum a suppose to be expert replied me like 3 (15 KT each), 6 (5KT each) and 9 (3 KT each) with decoys and flares.
> 
> What you Sir comment on that.



can't comment as
1- this not my field (just have some interest)
2- No more information is available at this point in time


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## Cookie Monster

F86 Saber said:


> Mukti Bahini were never declared as terrorists for two reasons
> 
> 1. Their existence and violent struggle lasted from 25th March 1971 to 16th December 1971, a short period after which they came into power in an independent Bangladesh and ended their violent struggle. If Pakistan Army was fighting against them, they were of course considered hostile however after they into power, there was no point for Pakistan to declare it as a terrorist group so in order to do some damage control, Pakistani Govt. of that time accepted Bangladesh as a country.
> 
> 2. Usually, organizations who are struggling internally against a country for their rights are not declared as terrorist organizations by the UN, some examples from your own backyard are ULFA (which is put as a group of concern by UN but not as a terrorist group), CPI/PLGA, Khalitan Movement etc.
> 
> The fact remains that India helped Mukti Bahini by arming them and providing them with manpower, shelter and support and Modi admitted to that recently. He admitted that Indian Army soldiers fought side by side with Mukti Bahini, How different is that to Pakistan supporting LeT and JuD?


Don't expect an answer.
- Admitting it would put India at the same level as Pakistan and their invented "moral high ground" would be lost.

- Calling MB "Freedom Fighters" and providing justifications will mean that Indians(just like Pakistanis) also pick and choose and differentiate between these groups based on their interests. This is also unacceptable bcuz it violates the golden rule of "Indian moral high ground".

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## Falcon26

The Deterrent said:


> _Peeron ka mazaq nai uratay, un ki pohnch boht ooper tak hoti hai_.



His entire drivel reminds me of the statements by Indian "experts" few years back in which they will argue endlessly that there was no way Pakistan could have miniaturized its nukes to fit in the cones of the missiles. This used to be a very standard line of argument for them few years back. Now forward it to 2017 after the advent of Nisr and other weapon systems, the biggest headache for these same "experts" is Pakistan's battlefield tactical nukes. No more talk of questioning if Pakistan can miniaturize its nukes.

Give this guy and his ilk couple more years. They will be moaning about MIRV tech and Ababeel same way they are moaning about Nisr. It seems to be the standard evolutionary cycle for the Indians

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## Cookie Monster

Areesh said:


> Indian logic 101.
> 
> If Pakistani government didn't consider Mukiti Bahini terrorists then why it started a military operation against it?
> 
> And if Mukiti bahini is not terrorists because rest of the world didn't consider them terrorists then why Indian state, government and media considers militants of Manipur, Assam and other North Eastern states as terrorists? Rest of the world don't consider ULFA as terrorists either.
> 
> India your name is hypocrisy.


Lol it's no use...I've wasted quite a lot of my time to show him that India sponsored/funded/armed an organisation that attacked Pakistanis just like Pakistan does to India...but he kept insisting that MB must be declared a terrorist organizaton first.

Indian logic = India is all that is good and right/Pakistan is evil/No amount of facts is going to change that.

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## My-Analogous

شاھین میزایل said:


> OK yara.
> Here is your original diagram with corrections made. Your original figures in red. Multiplied by 1.07 in white.
> Now that we know the the warhead to be fitted is 2.0 meter tall and 0.76 Meters wide.
> How many can be fitted in a space 3.4 Meters tall and 1.8 Meters wide?
> I am guessing there will be more than three.
> 
> View attachment 371677
> 
> 
> 
> Also if the RV is 5.14 meters tall ( warhead cowling 3.4 m + white bit at the bottom 1.74m) then the whole missile must be 20-21 meters tall.
> The TEL which carries Topol is the same that carries Shaheen-3 . Topol is 22.7 m tall, so Ababeel can be easily carried by re-fitted Shaheen-3 TEL.
> 
> View attachment 371687
> 
> 
> View attachment 371689



The nearest is not Topal but RS24

Weight 49,600 kg
*Length* 20.9 m
*Diameter* 2 m
*Warhead* At least 4 MIRVs with 150–250 kiloton warheads

I think we can say minimum 3 warheads 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-24_Yars


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## The SC

Mombati said:


> How many warheads Ababeel 1 can carry in max configuration.


Maybe 3 nuclear (50 to 70 kt each) or conventional warheads, and my other guess is 6 to 8 tactical ( NASR size warheads), please keep in mind that these are nothing more than speculations..


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## Cookie Monster

Areesh said:


> LMAO yeh phir aa gaya??
> 
> View attachment 371641


I finally got a chance to see that video of "experts" claiming Babur 3 missile launch is fake. 

He says that the video of the test looks like it is "Computer Graphics Initiated" 

Yeh bc jahil Babur 3 test ko fake saabit kerne chalay hain or CGI ka matlab nahi pata.


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## Thorough Pro

missile detection/tracking is done by radars and regardless of how much smoke the enemy missile operators see, they won't be able to direct the missile after smoke trail, at least until now. 




Muhammad bin Hamid said:


> smoke emission from missile should be reduced because it can help detect missile path if you look at russian satan missile you will notice that it emits very less smoke after launch

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## razgriz19

ShoutB said:


> you did not explain
> 
> How come your RV's hit the target linearly so accurately that the total restricted area was so narrow which does not happen in MIRV test firing, as if testing only one dummy warhead released at 90km height and allowed to free fall to hit a target zone another 700 kms away.



Russian MIRV at test range. 
They're not that far apart. And another thing is, it was just a missile test and not an MIRV test. The report said MIRV capable missile was tested. We don't know if multiple warheads were in fact tested.

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## F86 Saber

Cookie Monster said:


> Don't expect an answer.
> - Admitting it would put India at the same level as Pakistan and their invented "moral high ground" would be lost.
> 
> - Calling MB "Freedom Fighters" and providing justifications will mean that Indians(just like Pakistanis) also pick and choose and differentiate between these groups based on their interests. This is also unacceptable bcuz it violates the golden rule of "Indian moral high ground".



I have learnt my lesson and i am not going to bang my head against the wall anymore, he again conveniently ignored the part to which he had no answer i.e why freedom fighters like UCLA and CPI (Maoists), who are fighting a war consistently with the India security forces and have inflicted more damage then whatever LeT has ever done, have not been declared terrorist organizations by the UN? 

He has the typical mentality of a selective visioned Indian, my only concern is that he is a "Think Tank".

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## Cookie Monster

XiNiX said:


> Congratulation to Pakistan for this Huge Achievement. What a proud day for Pakistani members.
> Indeed India will now add a new "game changer" element to its Threat Library.
> 
> Some Interesting Observations :
> 
> - If MIRV was indeed focused on Indian BMD , its safe to assume Pakistan considers Indian BMD as a Genuine Threat , and Defense against its regular Missiles. This means that Indian BMD is on the Right Track else it was pointless to test.
> 
> - Indian BMD now needs serious reconsideration and upgrade.
> 
> - Boost Phase Interception will now be a Top Priority.


This right here is a mature and constructive response. Please teach ur countrymen on this forum the same sense and manners that u have.


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## Safriz

ShoutB said:


> Not when the missile is less than 3000km range.


Altitude matters , not range


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## ShoutB

شاھین میزایل said:


> Altitude matters , not range



more the altitude more time for abm to target the projectile, and higher the altitude steeper the angle which may cause RV burnout . This is why Russia came up with quasi ballistic.



razgriz19 said:


> Russian MIRV at test range.
> They're not that far apart. And another thing is, it was just a missile test and not an MIRV test. The report said MIRV capable missile was tested. We don't know if multiple warheads were in fact tested.



you definitely missed the other part of MIRV which went the other side and would have fallen at least 200km away.


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## My-Analogous

Slow down guys i m still on page 46

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## PaklovesTurkiye

My-Analogous said:


> Slow down guys i m still on page 46


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## My-Analogous

Srinivas said:


>



And how much time India need to track that because NATO can track and response within 6 mins



Srinivas said:


> These days there are technologies which can destroy the missile in the enemy territory itself. The missile has to travel some time to cross the border. Mean time there is enough time for ABM systems.
> 
> The MIRV capability comes handy once the missile nears the target.


 How much time?



TooRave said:


> Don't get emotional..what illogical did I say?



Where is logic in it that we can say that is illogical?



TooRave said:


> Well our radar can detect any launch from your launch pads..
> Also you will be releasing 2-3 warheads within range of almost 200 kms which is in our radar range..
> All warheads are not launched together from atmosphere..Missile has to change trajectory..It needs time..Our nearest BMDs will already be in action



In real time environment what is Indian response time ?


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## 90ArsalanLeo

sady said:


> This is called as Psychological warfare. Common people do not understand and are easily swayed by gimmicks. The Dawn or ET are not naive that they do not know defence is as imp as social development. They won't tell who is stopping Gov from making teachers attend schools and stop ghost teachers. Who is stopping gov from taking schools back from being stables for village animals. They won't go there because they won't get paid in overseas accounts by their 'masters'. Maligning defence and working as fifth coloumnists is their job.



Precisely i dont see them thrashing CM punjab on daily basis for acquiring $160 million loan for orange line train for a country that is already in billions of dollars of debt. With 2.3 million children not going to school in punjab most in any province in Pakistan his priority should be giving them free and quality education and get loans for this purpose but instead he's busy making roads, flyovers, underpasses, orange line train while his brother is busy giving metros to Pakistanis


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## My-Analogous

TooRave said:


> That descend speed is almost same for any ballistic missile..
> Yes distance is the factor but S400s is made to intercept almost anything but ICBMs..Although it's impossible to intercept after reentry ..
> India has ability to detect & intercept even before it goes out of atmosphere..



Main characteristics of the S-400
Max target speed: 4.8 kilometres per second (17,000 km/h; 11,000 mph; Mach 14)
Target detection distance (km) 600


kṣamā said:


> Last I heard ISPR reported of *MIRV CAPABLE* missile. And that's enough to nullify S400 which was a result of few decades of Russian RnD. Damn! I suppose this abdul releases about 100 warheads at a time... definitely someone's uncle's grandson's wife's brother heard something like that from his time in army.
> 
> Common guys you are taking characteristic of an ICBM and projecting it for a TBM. This missile dose not even come under IRBM. The warheads once lobbed cannot be distributed very diversly as the bus itself following a balestic trajectory will also reenter the atmosphere.
> 
> And yes we know all about the "Classified" RnD Pakistan dose after China announces it will help Pakistan develop newer balistic missiles. Pretty good "RnD"



You are absolutely correct, we have nuclear capable missile doesn't mean that it may have it


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## sady

90ArsalanLeo said:


> Precisely i dont see them thrashing CM punjab on daily basis for acquiring $160 million loan for orange line train for a country that is already in billions of dollars of debt. With 2.3 million children not going to school in punjab most in any province in Pakistan his priority should be giving them free and quality education and get loans for this purpose but instead he's busy making roads, flyovers, underpasses, orange line train while his brother is busy giving metros to Pakistanis


Imagine billions spent on useless infrastructure. Even had Pml n spent in ventures that would in longer run make more money it would have made sense but no spending billions to provide working class a fancy ride. Imagine if all that money was spent on schools, universties, HEC and R&D in those universities, hospitals in atleast major Districts. To one holding a hammer everything is a nail. To a lohaar everything is 'sariya'

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## Cookie Monster

90ArsalanLeo said:


> Precisely i dont see them thrashing CM punjab on daily basis for acquiring $160 million loan for orange line train for a country that is already in billions of dollars of debt. With 2.3 million children not going to school in punjab most in any province in Pakistan his priority should be giving them free and quality education and get loans for this purpose but instead he's busy making roads, flyovers, underpasses, orange line train while his brother is busy giving metros to Pakistanis


The government(be it of PML-N or any other party) is to blame for things like u mentioned but the people are equally to blame. There is thus tendency among us to vote on the basis of the work we can SEE that some politician did.
Consider this:
- Person A lives in some area where the road by his house is in shambles.
- A politician representing that area, let's call him Crook A, gets that road made right around or slightly before election time.
- Now when election time rolls around Crook A can appeal to Person A to vote for him instead of voting for Crook B. Person would be more likely to vote for Crook A bcuz he benefitted from Crook A.
- Crook A gets elected again and gets to fill his pockets and do a little bit of more work for "show", take pictures, hype it up, etc.

It is this kind of voter mentality that is just as equally responsible. Our politicians neglect working on other crucial tasks if they have nothing to show for it. Our public(a lot of them) votes selfishly in a sense, based on things like I mentioned above or bcuz Crook A shares some ethnic/linguistic/etc commonality with Person A. If the public was informed enough where they will see the bigger picture then politicians will be forced to also look at the bigger picture and work on that if they want to get reelected.

U can see this phenomenon in what PML-N is doing right now. Most of the development is happening in Punjab, which is their voter base so naturally they would like to "show" their "hardwork" to retain those votes. Other provinces get neglected bcuz PML-N isn't likely to benefit(get votes) from Sindh for example.

Punjab is the most populous province and contributes the most in GDP. Also there is an actual need to alleviate traffic and build infrastructure...but even after taking into account all of this there is still an unproportional amount of attention Punjab is getting from the current government and a lot of the money(loans) is being spent on building metros and bridges, which could be better used elsewhere.


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## GumNaam

butcher away folks:

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## Surya 1

Congratulation to Pakistan. It has became third country after US and Russia to have MIRV. It is the only nation in the world to equip a 2200 KM missile with MIRV. US and Russia are unable to do that. Pakistan should be really proud of her achievement. I believe babur with MIRV is next

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## Safriz

GumNaam said:


> butcher away folks:


Every little schoolboy is defense expert in India.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

شاھین میزایل said:


> Every little schoolboy is defense expert in India.

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## GumNaam

Surya 1 said:


> Congratulation to Pakistan. It has became third country after US and Russia to have MIRV. It is the only nation in the world to equip a 2200 KM missile with MIRV. US and Russia are unable to do that. Pakistan should be really proud of her achievement. I believe babur with MIRV is next


Launching MIRVs is not a function limited by range but by altitude and directly proportional to the distance of the target. China, Russia and the u.s. have great distances between them and therefore their missiles have to higher. Having said that, this is an indirect warning to other countries farther away that reaching them is short hop and a skip away for us.

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## Surya 1

GumNaam said:


> Launching MIRVs is not a function limited by range



Ohhhh is it? I did not know that. Thank you for educating me. I know pakistan can do that. That is why I wrote that I am awaiting for MIRVed Babur.


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## GumNaam

Surya 1 said:


> Ohhhh is it? I did not know that. Thank you for educating me. I know pakistan can do that. That is why I wrote that I am awaiting for MIRVed Babur.


Oh not a problem, I understand that most indians suffer from a serious case of gigantus ignoramus so we are all to happy to shove it in your face.

Don't worry, there's already a version of the Babur that carries clustered explosives.

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## Surya 1

GumNaam said:


> Oh not a problem, I understand that most indians suffer from a serious case of gigantus ignoramus so we are all to happy to shove it in your face.
> 
> Don't worry, there's already a version of the Babur that carries clustered explosives.



I know we suffer many such problems and we are not as smart as you guys. Whole world know that. They know that Pakistanis are very smart and intelligent people and Indians are dumb.


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## GumNaam

Surya 1 said:


> I know we suffer many such problems and we are not as smart as you guys. Whole world know that. They know that Pakistanis are very smart and intelligent people and Indians are dumb.



You forgot to add cheap after dumb.

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## Mrc

For a country which can fire a slcm and mirv in 3 weeks.... icbm is just a step away...

Just saying ... we dont want to go that way... but some one may force us

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## GumNaam

@Mrc 

Agreed


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## HRK

Mrc said:


> icbm is just a step away...
> 
> we dont want to go that way



As you said "we dont want to go that way" because its not our requirement 






https://www.express.com.pk/epaper/PoPupwindow.aspx?newsID=1102555599&Issue=NP_LHE&Date=20141202

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## My-Analogous

DavidSling said:


> I know that Israel worked out of dealing with decoys, but as for MIRV's, there's no real answer for that.
> Either u deal with the threat before it spread it's warheads, or u create as much countermeasure against all his warheads (Something that would look like MIRV's against MIRV's maybe)
> To me the most logical solution would be a laser defense system, which is no where as mature for this.



First honest reply and if you add real time environment, then May be India have only a minute or may be less then a minute to react and this is not event achieved by US and whole systems currently operational taking minimum 5 minute to react after getting full information.Here is the video






Please note that they are talking about single threat



HRK said:


> As you said "we dont want to go that way" because its not our requirement
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.express.com.pk/epaper/PoPupwindow.aspx?newsID=1102555599&Issue=NP_LHE&Date=20141202



And the year was 2014 so i think Pakistan will show the world in next 8 to 10 year

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## Taimoor Khan

DavidSling said:


> Iron Fist, Iron Dome, Trophy, F-35, Arrow 3, David Sling and alot more, should I continue? Like I said before, u think u're holding all the card in the deck, while everybody already surpassed u technology wise.



Good luck stopping MIRV'ed Pakistani missiles coming your way. Considering your size, your ambitions can be your undoing. Look, I am not here in this d!ck measuring contest. I am highliting the blunder your strategic planners have done by poking their noses in the sub continent affairs.

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## My-Analogous

randomradio said:


> Lots of mistakes. Radars regularly track targets moving at mach 25, that's more than 8Km/s, 4.8Km/s is easy. How else do you think satellites are tracked? They are moving even faster at mach 28, more than 9Km/s. The S-400 can intercept targets up to 4.8Km/s, that's mach 14.
> 
> MIRV warheads fall due to gravity, it's nothing special. What's special about MIRVs is a missile can carry 3 or more warheads. Even missiles that have only one warhead come with reentry vehicles. During interception, the warhead is not changing directions, it is merely falling.
> 
> The S-400 was designed to intercept MIRVs. Along with other BMDs. For example, a battery can target 12 warheads. So a missile with 12 MIRV warheads can be intercepted by S-400. The only major criteria is the warheads should be doing less than mach 14. Since Delhi may have a minimum of 10 batteries, the S-400 can intercept 120 warheads at the same time. So you will need enough missiles that can carry 120 or more warheads to saturate the defences. This is not counting the Indian Phase 1 BMD.
> 
> If the Ababeel has 3 warheads, then Pak will need more than 40 missiles to saturate Delhi's S-400s. Of course, as time goes, the S-400 will be upgraded to be able to handle more threats at the same time. The Indian BMD is no different.
> 
> Missile speed depends on the range and altitude. So ICBMs have more speed, mach 17-25, SRBMs have the least speed, mach 2-3. So a missile fired from Pakistan towards Delhi is not going to be doing more than mach 10 even from the furthest ranges possible. Such missiles are significantly slower than 3Km/sec.
> 
> However, other cities in India are under greater threat of nukes. But for that there will be 2 new missiles introduced in the S-400 family that can stop targets up to 7Km/s. Plus, the phase 2 of the Indian BMD program will also be able to stop IRBMs. So any missile fired from inside Pakistan to any part of India will be stopped by the BMD. The Phase 2 BMD and the new missiles for the S-400 are primarily targeted to stop missiles that can be fired from any part of China into India.



Do you know what is current speed of Pakistani Missiles? We are talking 18 Mach + missiles

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Surya 1 said:


> I know we suffer many such problems and we are not as smart as you guys. Whole world know that. They know that Pakistanis are very smart and intelligent people and Indians are dumb.



Actually your national iq is lower than Pak..

And the recent tests have kicked your national moral/ego right in the butt crack.

So your constant moaning comes as no surprise.

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## 90ArsalanLeo

Cookie Monster said:


> U can see this phenomenon in what PML-N is doing right now. Most of the development is happening in Punjab, which is their voter base so naturally they would like to "show" their "hardwork" to retain those votes. Other provinces get neglected bcuz PML-N isn't likely to benefit(get votes) from Sindh for example.



They dont get votes from sindh because they dont do any development projects in sindh when they have federal govt


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## My-Analogous

Surya 1 said:


> Congratulation to Pakistan. It has became third country after US and Russia to have MIRV. It is the only nation in the world to equip a 2200 KM missile with MIRV. US and Russia are unable to do that. Pakistan should be really proud of her achievement. I believe babur with MIRV is next



Beside Pakistan, US,Russia,China, France and Israel is having this tech



Surya 1 said:


> I know we suffer many such problems and we are not as smart as you guys. Whole world know that. They know that Pakistanis are very smart and intelligent people and Indians are dumb.



Yes you are right

LCA
Kaveri engine
Arjun Tank
Nirbhay (2018 is latest date), we have same capacity missiles in service since 2005 (babar 1 missile)

Prove that we are batter in the field of Military hardware.


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## Cookie Monster

90ArsalanLeo said:


> They dont get votes from sindh because they dont do any development projects in sindh when they have federal govt


It is the classic chicken and egg problem, which came first?

PML-N's thinking: "why should we use these funds to develop and please ppl of Sindh, they r most likely gonna vote for PPP. We would gain nothing by doing that"

Sindh ppl: "why should we vote for PML-N? They don't represent us, they don't work on our needs, etc."

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## ziaulislam

Cookie Monster said:


> It is the classic chicken and egg problem, which came first?
> 
> PML-N's thinking: "why should we use these funds to develop and please ppl of Sindh, they r most likely gonna vote for PPP. We would gain nothing by doing that"
> 
> Sindh ppl: "why should we vote for PML-N? They don't represent us, they don't work on our needs, etc."


the whole purpose of giving funds to provinces was to solve this problem, over 50% funds go to province, federal govt is now bankrupt after defence exp, provinces should bankroll their own projects


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## dilpakistani

Surya 1 said:


> Congratulation to Pakistan. It has became third country after US and Russia to have MIRV. It is the only nation in the world to equip a 2200 KM missile with MIRV. US and Russia are unable to do that. Pakistan should be really proud of her achievement. I believe babur with MIRV is next


If you are implying that no one has done it on 2200 km range because range has some kinda factor in employing that tech on missile then my friend ... u r such a fool... even modern Mrls can have that capability....

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## Riz

Surya 1 said:


> I know everybody except you guys are fool. So be happy and enjoy your MIRV technology in a 2200 KM range missile (Which is tested for just 1200 Km.


It was a test launch dude, and ababeel range is not 2200 km but much more then it claimed

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## RedStar86

im maybe a little late with my reply, so Happy Chinese new year to all of my dear pakistani mates! two reasons to celebrate! 
so I read all posts, and i have a few things to say/ask:
1. the next thing that pak should develop is a shield from all the funny indian comments here..which i simply laughed about..
2. I saw a lot of comments about BMD systems and the way the missile can handle it, but from my little knowledge - there are 2 MIRV's - MIRV BUS and an Independent MIRV, but MIRV BUS is to hit a couple of targets. (maybe im wrong)
so do we know that is was really a MIRV BUS this test as said? whats the purpose?

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## krash

90ArsalanLeo said:


> They dont get votes from sindh because they dont do any development projects in sindh when they have federal govt



If only it worked that way. We wouldn't see any of these parasites around.


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## razgriz19

I thought there was going to be another test...maybe it failed so it never made it to the news lol


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## amardeep mishra

Gillani88 said:


> Yeah you need to call your Research papers & patents expert @amardeep mishra


Hi
The aerodynamic configuration does seem to suggest enhanced payload fairing for supposed MIRV bus.This is indeed the first step towards developing a MIRV missile--because pakistani missiles have a smaller dia of just 1.4m(legacy chinese solid rocket) and for any meaningful MIRV bus they'd require something like ~2m dia. However how far pakistan has been able to develop MIRV bus is another debate entirely and would depend on a lot of other parameters. Anyways,we should wait for more tests wherein actual MIRVs are tested before making any claim.
But one thing is certain,pakistan is indeed working towards augmenting their strategic forces with MIRV capable missile.



The Deterrent said:


> after the 2 main stages, the rest of the narrower white section seems to be the third stage.


Hi @The Deterrent 
I dont think there is any 3rd stage for if there were,we would have seen cable runners,running down the 3rd stage. The enhanced payload fairing is indeed quite visible which points to two main facts-
1)Good fact: Pakistan is indeed working towards MIRV bus and this is the first step to validate the aerodynamic performance of the system.
2)Not-so-good fact: Pakistan is still stuck with legacy solid rocket with dia 1.4m and hasn't progressed to ~2m or >2m rocket engines. This is the reason why they went for larger dia payload fairings in the first place.



The Deterrent said:


> Indeed. Congratulations to all Pakistanis.
> 
> Along-with introducing the second-strike capability, Pakistan has declared active development of massive first-strike capability, thus ensuring Full-spectrum deterrence. The Indo/Pak arms race just got a new angle.
> 
> *Tidbits:*
> 
> 1. As evident from the released photo, the missile is based on the previously well-established line of Ballistic missiles i.e Shaheen-II/III.
> 2. An extra stage has been added, presumably giving the ability to inject RVs in their independent trajectories.
> 3. The payload fairing has been made larger and wider, to accommodate the MIRV-bus and up to 3 MIRVs.
> 4. The stated range is highly variable, depending on the number of RVs in the payload. However, the maximum range of this system will not exceed the limit set by Pakistan.
> 5. The decrease in range is because of the additional mass of MIRVs and third stage.
> 6. The nomenclature comes from the historic Islamic (Abrahmic) event, when the Abyssinians intended to invade and destroy Ka'abah, using elephants. Allah then sent thousands of 'Ababeels' (swallows/larks), each with 3 stones (one in beak, two in each claw) to kill the elephants.


For instance in this pic above,I cant see the 3rd set of cable runners,whereas first two are quite visible.


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## Safriz

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi
> The aerodynamic configuration does seem to suggest enhanced payload fairing for supposed MIRV bus.This is indeed the first step towards developing a MIRV missile--because pakistani missiles have a smaller dia of just 1.4m(legacy chinese solid rocket) and for any meaningful MIRV bus they'd require something like ~2m dia. However how far pakistan has been able to develop MIRV bus is another debate entirely and would depend on a lot of other parameters. Anyways,we should wait for more tests wherein actual MIRVs are tested before making any claim.
> But one thing is certain,pakistan is indeed working towards augmenting their strategic forces with MIRV capable missile.
> 
> 
> Hi @The Deterrent
> I dont think there is any 3rd stage for if there were,we would have seen cable runners,running down the 3rd stage. The enhanced payload fairing is indeed quite visible which points to two main facts-
> 1)Good fact: Pakistan is indeed working towards MIRV bus and this is the first step to validate the aerodynamic performance of the system.
> 2)Not-so-good fact: Pakistan is still stuck with legacy solid rocket with dia 1.4m and hasn't progressed to ~2m or >2m rocket engines. This is the reason why they went for larger dia payload fairings in the first place.
> 
> 
> For instance in this pic above,I cant see the 3rd set of cable runners,whereas first two are quite visible.


You and your biased analysis again. You do have knowledge but your impartiality makes your thinking clouded and comments look like from a banana seller's.

First thing is that the Motor stages are 1.4 or 1.5 Meter wide if from Shaheen-2 or shaheen-3 respectively and hunch is that its from Shaheen-3 , but the Payload fairing or MIRV bus is much wider. We did make an educated guess and it is 1.8 Meter wide. That's wide enough to carry 3 to 4 Shaheen-3 sized Warheads,which is 0.76 Meter wide and 2 Meter Tall. Three or 4 of these can fit on top of Ababeel easily.
The 2 meter width you are metioning is probably reference to not yet MIRV Agni 3 and 5 or 2.11 meter wide Trident which carries 8 MIRV and hence the graeter width.

Here are the measurements done primarily by @JamD and contributions by me too. The bold numbers are if the First two stages are from Shaheen-2 and 1.4 meters wide. The bold numbers are if the first two stages are from Shaheen-3 and 1.5 meters wide.

Also there is a third stage for which you don't see the cable runner as in liquid motor body the cables can be run internally.
In solid motor the fuel grain has to be perfectly circular and internally passing cables with deform the round shape of fuel grain.Also the fuel burns upwards from bottom like in a Fire cracker and hot gasses will burn the cables.
In Liquid moor body the fuel can have additional tanks inside and dont need to be perfectly circular and no hot gazes are inside produced inside the motor body,only in cumbustion chamber and below. So cables can be passed internally.

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## amardeep mishra

شاھین میزایل said:


> You and your biased analysis again. You do have knowledge but your impartiality makes your thinking clouded and comments look like from a banana seller's.


Tell,me why do you think I am biased?I did not write anything to demean the missile. Whatever I wrote was based on my understanding and available open source literature. The tested and reliable solid rocket that we see in ababeel is perhaps from shaheen series that in turn uses a 1.4m dia rocket. In case you find this information objectionable then kindly prove me wrong based on "credible engineering literature". I would be more than willing to correct myself!
Thanks!



شاھین میزایل said:


> In solid motor the fuel grain has to be perfectly circular and internally passing cables with deform the round shape of fuel grain.Also the fuel burns upwards from bottom like in a Fire cracker and hot gasses will burn the cables.
> In Liquid moor body the fuel can have additional tanks inside and dont need to be perfectly circular and no hot gazes are inside produced inside the motor body,only in cumbustion chamber and below. So cables can be passed internally.


My understanding was that it is entirely a solid fuel missile. Why would someone use liquid motors as 3rd stage in 2017(other than reaction control system ofcourse!)?



شاھین میزایل said:


> First thing is that the Motor stages are 1.4 or 1.5 Meter wide if from Shaheen-2 or shaheen-3 respectively and hunch is that its from Shaheen-3 , but the Payload fairing or MIRV bus is much wider. We did make an educated guess and it is 1.8 Meter wide.


Thats what I too eluded to in my last comments--i.e the solid rocket is 1.4m dia and the payload fairing is close to 2m dia(as you yourself claimed a dia of 1.8m)!. Now they had to design an entirely new payload fairing because they couldnt accommodate 3 MIRVs in 1.4m dia! Also this points to the fact that they still rely heavily on their 1.4m dia motors!



شاھین میزایل said:


> The 2 meter width you are metioning is probably reference to not yet MIRV Agni 3 and 5 or 2.11 meter wide Trident which carries 8 MIRV and hence the graeter width.


Yes I was referring to ICBMs class dia that has shown MIRV capability. In case of Agni-3 and 5 it is simply a matter of time when MIRV bus is tested. But let me tell you,the development on this side of the border is more skewed in favour of developing a longer range SLBM i.e K-5 with 3 MIRVs.

PS-kindly note that Agni-3 wouldnt be deployed with strategic forces command of India,it was a test bed to test rocket with dia=2m,that eventually found itz way into Agni-5 with a host of other improvements. It is Agni-4 and 5 that are being/will be inducted in numbers.


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## Cool_Soldier

Its off topic but if anyone here shed some light.

Why K-4 test was not done by India on 31st Jan 2017?

Why planed test of some NEW/OLD BM was not test by Pakistan as warning was issued for 27th 28th Jan?


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## Safriz

amardeep mishra said:


> My understanding was that it is entirely a solid fuel missile. Why would someone use liquid motors as 3rd stage in 2017(other than reaction control system ofcourse!)?



Using liquid fuel motor in later stages of missile is not uncommon specially in Russian missiles and some western ones too.
Reason is simple. The initial thrust has to be massive and quick to get the momentum and also to gain quick altitude. later a liquid motor can be used as they bun for much longer albeit with a slower thrust, which is great in the vaccum of space where you dont need massive thrust but benefit if it is for longer.

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## The Deterrent

amardeep mishra said:


> However how far pakistan has been able to develop MIRV bus is another debate entirely and would depend on a lot of other parameters. Anyways,we should wait for more tests wherein actual MIRVs are tested before making any claim.
> But one thing is certain,pakistan is indeed working towards augmenting their strategic forces with MIRV capable missile.


I wonder what those parameters are. Care to shed some light on them?


amardeep mishra said:


> Hi @The DeterrentI dont think there is any 3rd stage for if there were,we would have seen cable runners,running down the 3rd stage.


Let's just say that it is not exactly a boosting stage. If you know how MIRVs are injected in their individual suborbital trajectories, you would also know that a very specific component does that job. Otherwise adding the MIRV-bus and shroud directly on top of second stage of Shaheen-III would've done the job.



amardeep mishra said:


> PS-kindly note that Agni-3 wouldnt be deployed with strategic forces command of India,it was a test bed to test rocket with dia=2m,that eventually found itz way into Agni-5 with a host of other improvements. It is Agni-4 and 5 that are being/will be inducted in numbers.


I had the same notion that it would be pointless to deploy Agni-3 when Agni-5 was also coming up with much better capabilities. However can we have an authentic source for this?
Also, does that mean that the only nuclear capable missiles deployed as of this moment are Agni-1, Agni-2?
As Prithvi series was retired from the nuclear role, Shaurya (land-based K-15) probably never went into production and Agni-IV & V are still in the developmental phase.

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## Safriz

A-3 uses the older larger Uranium warhead. A-5 uses newer smaller Plutonium warhead. I am not sure why A-3 wont be used by India


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## amardeep mishra

شاھین میزایل said:


> Using liquid fuel motor in later stages of missile is not uncommon specially in Russian missiles and some western ones too.
> Reason is simple. The initial thrust has to be massive and quick to get the momentum and also to gain quick altitude. later a liquid motor can be used as they bun for much longer albeit with a slower thrust, which is great in the vaccum of space where you dont need massive thrust but benefit if it is for longer.


Hi dear Shaheen Missile(yes I can read urdu!)
Whatever you said about the liquid rocket is correct however let me add a couple of more points.First off,a liquid rocket offers superior mass fraction vis-a-vis solid rocket.Initial thrust indeed has to be massive but that thrust can very easily come from any engine either solid or liquid--it doesnt have to be necessarily solid! For instance the highest mass fraction known to human kind is offered by cryogenic engines burning LOX and LOH,but we cant really use them in our ICBMs--where requirement is more skewed towards compactness and quick reaction. And no,liquids doesnt burn with a slower thrust--kindly refer to George P Sutton's book on propulsion! Normally a similar sized liquid engine burning UDMH would have a higher ISP. The only problem with liquids is storage and time taken to fill the tanks.
Secondly,the burnout out point of a strategic missile is way close to earth than you think--for instance the burnout point of a long range ICBM is hardly at 60-100kms altitude--that means all the motors gets separated by 100kms and the missile is given the trajectory of a projectile!
Thirdly,no modern missiles these days use liquid engines(burning UDMH-or any kind of hypergolic fuels) in any of the stages! It will take at least a couple of hrs to fill both the 3rd stage and RCS tanks for roll manuevers. Btw,have you ever wondered why does it take at least 30 mins for even missiles like shaheen-2,3 to launch? Most of the time is spent in fueling the RCS tanks. Kindly note that either fuel or oxidizer cant be stored for prolonged period of time.For instance peroxide releases oxygen which is highly corrosive,similarly di-nitrogen tetroxide exists as nitrogen oxide in equilibrium not to mention the highly toxic nature of UDMH itself.
So in all likelyhood,ababeel is also a solid fuel missile.



The Deterrent said:


> Also, does that mean that the only nuclear capable missiles deployed as of this moment are Agni-1, Agni-2?
> As Prithvi series was retired from the nuclear role, Shaurya (land-based K-15) probably never went into production and Agni-IV & V are still in the developmental phase.


Hi @The Deterrent
You're partially correct,inspite of what a lot of folks say,If we carefully monitor various seminars etc,then A-1,2 and to some extent A-4 are the only missiles mass deployed for strategic purposes.Some reports however do point to couple of A-3s part of some strategic missile units in hyderabad,however I do not know the authenticity of such reports. A-4 and A-5 aint in development phases anymore.In fact user trials of A-4 have been finished recently,clearing itz path for mass production,whereas accelerated user trials of A-5 are scheduled to begin soon. So,in very near future,probably in 1-2 years both A-4 and A-5 are going to be part of strategic forces command. Another thing is A-2,3,4,5 can be launched from rail-wagons! Shaurya was a land based version of k-15--army preffered Agni over newly designed shaurya. This has more to do with internal bickering than anything else.For instance Agni series was designed by a group headed by ex-Director General of DRDO Dr Chander(who btw was an IIT Delhi alumunus--he was the chief project director) whereas K-series are being handled by a different group. But now,K-series are being given more priority in terms of development than Agni.



The Deterrent said:


> Let's just say that it is not exactly a boosting stage. If you know how MIRVs are injected in their individual suborbital trajectories, you would also know that a very specific component does that job. Otherwise adding the MIRV-bus and shroud directly on top of second stage of Shaheen-III would've done the job.


So just like shaheen missile(that guy) you're saying that it is a liquid rocket engine?
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Rest_World/Taimoor/Description/Frame.htm
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/Dong-Feng/index.htm


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## The Deterrent

amardeep mishra said:


> So just like shaheen missile(that guy) you're saying that it is a liquid rocket engine?
> http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Rest_World/Taimoor/Description/Frame.htm
> http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/Dong-Feng/index.htm


Well now I'm saying that you should read up on how MIRVs are injected in their individual suborbital trajectories.

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## amardeep mishra

The Deterrent said:


> Well now I'm saying that you should read up on how MIRVs are injected in their individual suborbital trajectories.


Sure I will give it a try! But i still cant fathom the reason as to why they'd use a liquid engine as a 3rd stage.


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## xyxmt

kṣamā said:


> Last I heard ISPR reported of *MIRV CAPABLE* missile. And that's enough to nullify S400 which was a result of few decades of Russian RnD. Damn! I suppose this abdul releases about 100 warheads at a time... definitely someone's uncle's grandson's wife's brother heard something like that from his time in army.
> 
> Common guys you are taking characteristic of an ICBM and projecting it for a TBM. This missile dose not even come under IRBM. The warheads once lobbed cannot be distributed very diversly as the bus itself following a balestic trajectory will also reenter the atmosphere.
> 
> And yes we know all about the "Classified" RnD Pakistan dose after China announces it will help Pakistan develop newer balistic missiles. Pretty good "RnD"



hehehe


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## Praise Kek

Does Pakistan’s Ababeel Medium Range Ballistic Missile Really Have MIRV Capability?
3429 By Rajaram Nagappa - February 3, 2017

It is not unusual to see news of a Pakistani ballistic missile launch close on the heels of an Indian ballistic missile event. The launch of Agni 5 took place on 26 December last year followed by the launch of Agni 4 a week later. For the Pakistani missile establishment, the year 2016 was a comparatively quiet year and one did expect a response to the Agni launches. Sure enough, Pakistan carried out a missile test – it was not another training or pre-deployment test of Shaheen 2 or Shaheen 3, but the test of a new missile called Ababeel on 24 January 2017. The missile is claimed to have a range of 2200 km and is said to be capable of carrying Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Vehicles (MIRV).
Unlike the Shaheen 2, the new missile has three stages. The Ababeel thermal fairing (heat shield) has a larger diameter than its core vehicle. The extra volume thus available is consistent with the requirements for MIRV capabilities. It must however, be noted that there are a number of technical constraints that have to be overcome before one can infer that Pakistan has succeeded in developing MIRV capability.
MIRV, as the name implies replaces a unitary warhead with a larger number of smaller warheads, with each of them programmed for different targets. It is therefore a more potent and powerful attack system. In a global scenario where a number of countries are developing Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) Systems, MIRV capability is needed to overwhelm such defences. Many BMD systems have capability limitations when it comes to dealing with multiple incoming warheads and may fail to engage all of them. By increasing the number of warheads along with decoys deployed with the real ones, BMD systems can be saturated. The US and Russia field such MIRV weapon systems and the numbers they field are governed by the strategic arms limitation treaty between them. The Chinese are also said to have incorporated MIRV in their DF 5, DF-31 and the JL 2 (the submarine launched version of the DF-31) ballistic missiles.
Over the last several years India has carried out a number of tests related to terminal phase BMD. These involve the interception of the warhead outside the atmosphere just before the re-entry of the incoming missile. For a country confronted with such an adversary, developing MIRV capability is the logical technology growth route to follow. One is therefore not surprised if Pakistan were to adopt such a route.
The rhetoric in the Pakistani establishment against Indian ABM capability is indicative of this. Sartaj Aziz, Pakistan’s advisor on Foreign Affairs is reported to have commented in June last year that India’s testing of anti ballistic missile system could lead to ‘unexpected complications’ . He is further stated to have told the Pakistani senate that Pakistan has serious concerns over these developments and will take ‘all necessary measures to augment its defence capabilities’.
Has Pakistan really overcome the technological challenges?
Though it is easy to express a need for the development of MIRV capabilities realizing it requires significant advances in a number of key technologies. The question to ask before we come to any conclusion is ‘Has Pakistan been able to master and overcome all the technical issues?’ In this regard, a critical assessment of the following issues is particularly necessary.
1. Weapon miniaturization: For MIRV requirements both the warhead and the re-entry vehicle (RV) need to be smaller and lighter. The US Minuteman-3 missile warhead had three Mk-12A RVs. The RVs had a base diameter of about 0.5 metre (m) and a length of approximately 1.81 m. Three such RVs could be accommodated within the missile shroud, which had a diameter of approximately 1 m.
2. Ababeel has a bulbous fairing at the top with a diameter estimated to be 1.7 m in which it may be physically possible to house three to four MIRVs of the Mk-12A type. The warhead fitting into this RV must have dimensions lower than that of the 0.5 m diameter. Has Pakistan managed such a miniature design and if so, how reliable is it?
3. The tests carried out by Pakistan on 28 and 30 May 1998 were all based on highly enriched uranium. Pakistan till-date not carried out any plutonium based weapon tests. The Plutonium route for warhead design is needed for developing smaller warheads required for MIRV. Without testing such a device the design confidence, performance repeatability, as well as system reliability is likely to be low. This raises the question of credibility behind Pakistan’s claims of MIRV developments.
4. A major requirement for a MIRV system will be the Post-Boost Control Vehicle (PBCV). The MIRV’s need to be supported on top of the PBCV, which houses a bank of liquid thrusters for 3-axis stabilization and for providing the axial thrust needed for maneuvers. In addition, each MIRV has to be positioned and released at different times during the trajectory based on the various targets that need to be reached. The MIRVs also act as a thermal protection system for their miniature warheads and protects them from the heat generated during reentry into the atmosphere.
5. The PBCV is essentially a missile stage housing liquid propellant tanks, pressurization tanks and banks of thrusters with intricate plumbing. Though Pakistan has exposure to liquid propulsion technology through the Ghauri missile, the same cannot directly be applied to PBCV. PBCV related developments require expertise in design and fabrication of small thrusters, fabrication of propellant and gas tanks, precision fabrication of valves, high-pressure plumbing, quality control and storable liquid propellants.
From media reports, it would appear that Pakistan has been working on liquid propulsion systems for use on missiles. The coverage of the successful launch of Shaheen-1A in the Dawn Newspaper of 25 April 2012 included a statement that suggested the missile possessed a ‘post-separation attitude control system’ . The post-separation attitude control system (PSAC) is essentially a liquid propulsion package used for providing thrust in the axial direction as well as for stabilizing the RV. RV of Shaheen-2 by extension would incorporate this system. Shaheen-3 flight-tested twice in 2015 is said to have a range of 2750 km. The additional range seems to have been achieved by combining in the PSAC the functions of a third stage as well as stabilization. System engineering from this to a PBCV therefore seems doable.
As argued above, the technical feasibility of a liquid propulsion package is possible, but the possibility of external help either from China or North Korea cannot be ruled out. The fact that design-engineering, testing, qualification and incorporation in three missile systems has been achieved in record time is also indicative of external support including material, component and sub-system supply.
6. The Notice to Mariners issued by the Pakistan Navy earmarks the missile flight range safety zone and in this case the farthest points of the safety zone are located at 1100 km from the launch range at Winder and far short of the claimed range of 2200 km. This could mean that the Ababeel flight of 24 January was a proving test of a new missile system. The lower range was the result of achieved design parameters (e.g. higher inert mass, lower propellant energetics) or by trajectory shaping. One usually expects to test a missile to its the full potential on the first developmental flight and not for a shorter range.
To Conclude
In summary, it would appear that Pakistan is in the process of putting together the building blocks for a MIRV capable missile. However, their assertion of possessing miniaturized warheads is open to doubt. The Chinese transfer of the CHIC-4 nuclear weapon design to Pakistan , which even involved orchestrating a test of the system for Pakistan in 1990, is well documented. According to Thomas Reed, co-author of the book ‘The Nuclear Express – A Political History of the Bomb and Its Proliferation’, the speedy response by Pakistan to the Indian nuclear tests of May 1998 was on account of the fact that they had a ‘carefully engineered device in which they had great confidence’. This confidence emanated from the receipt of the CHIC-4 design, training received by them and the test carried out by China for Pakistan in 1990 . China’s interests today are economic; China is close to achieving big power status; and has no major stake in furthering Pakistani nuclear weapon capability. Pakistan may therefore have to depend upon itself for achieving the required miniaturization of weapon systems for use in MIRVs.
The US has built and tested a large number and variety of weapon systems. Consequently, when they undertake a re-design or reliability upgrade programme, they have reams of test data to back their design effort. In spite of this they have had number of problems and many issues related to safety. The description of accidents during carriage and other near-miss situations that US nuclear weapons have been involved in is lucidly described in the book ‘Command and Control’ authored by Eric Schlosser. Seen in this light, the reliability of an untested weapon system is open to question.
While one can question whether the recent Ababeel can deliver on all the claims made by Pakistan there is no doubt that Pakistan will move towards maneuverable and MIRV missiles to counter Indian BMD systems. From an Indian perspective, it is necessary to continuously monitor and assess the evolution of Pakistan’s capabilities and the connections these capabilities have with Pakistan’s war-making and deterrence strategies. This will ensure that Indian responses are measured, responsible and aligned with Pakistan’s true capabilities.
Missiles from Pakistan, irrespective of the type of warheads they carry pose a problem for India. Their very short flight times make it imperative that India develop systems for the early detection of missile launches for activating Indian countermeasures.. India will need to supplement its ground-based detection with space-based detection systems to better manage shortcomings in early warning capabilities.
Rajaram Nagappa is Professor and Dean of the International Strategic and Security Studies Programme, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bengaluru. A noted expert on missile technology, Prof. Nagappa has specialized in aerospace propulsion and has worked extensively in the design and development of solid propellant rockets. He has made major research contributions to the analysis of Pakistani ballistic missile production capability. His recent work includes an assessment of Pakistani cruise missiles and an assessment of the Iranian satellite launch vehicle Safir.


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## The Deterrent

Praise Kek said:


> Does Pakistan’s Ababeel Medium Range Ballistic Missile Really Have MIRV Capability?
> 3429 By Rajaram Nagappa - February 3, 2017
> 
> It is not unusual to see news of a Pakistani ballistic missile launch close on the heels of an Indian ballistic missile event. The launch of Agni 5 took place on 26 December last year followed by the launch of Agni 4 a week later. For the Pakistani missile establishment, the year 2016 was a comparatively quiet year and one did expect a response to the Agni launches. Sure enough, Pakistan carried out a missile test – it was not another training or pre-deployment test of Shaheen 2 or Shaheen 3, but the test of a new missile called Ababeel on 24 January 2017. The missile is claimed to have a range of 2200 km and is said to be capable of carrying Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Vehicles (MIRV).
> Unlike the Shaheen 2, the new missile has three stages. The Ababeel thermal fairing (heat shield) has a larger diameter than its core vehicle. The extra volume thus available is consistent with the requirements for MIRV capabilities. It must however, be noted that there are a number of technical constraints that have to be overcome before one can infer that Pakistan has succeeded in developing MIRV capability.
> MIRV, as the name implies replaces a unitary warhead with a larger number of smaller warheads, with each of them programmed for different targets. It is therefore a more potent and powerful attack system. In a global scenario where a number of countries are developing Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) Systems, MIRV capability is needed to overwhelm such defences. Many BMD systems have capability limitations when it comes to dealing with multiple incoming warheads and may fail to engage all of them. By increasing the number of warheads along with decoys deployed with the real ones, BMD systems can be saturated. The US and Russia field such MIRV weapon systems and the numbers they field are governed by the strategic arms limitation treaty between them. The Chinese are also said to have incorporated MIRV in their DF 5, DF-31 and the JL 2 (the submarine launched version of the DF-31) ballistic missiles.
> Over the last several years India has carried out a number of tests related to terminal phase BMD. These involve the interception of the warhead outside the atmosphere just before the re-entry of the incoming missile. For a country confronted with such an adversary, developing MIRV capability is the logical technology growth route to follow. One is therefore not surprised if Pakistan were to adopt such a route.
> The rhetoric in the Pakistani establishment against Indian ABM capability is indicative of this. Sartaj Aziz, Pakistan’s advisor on Foreign Affairs is reported to have commented in June last year that India’s testing of anti ballistic missile system could lead to ‘unexpected complications’ . He is further stated to have told the Pakistani senate that Pakistan has serious concerns over these developments and will take ‘all necessary measures to augment its defence capabilities’.
> Has Pakistan really overcome the technological challenges?
> Though it is easy to express a need for the development of MIRV capabilities realizing it requires significant advances in a number of key technologies. The question to ask before we come to any conclusion is ‘Has Pakistan been able to master and overcome all the technical issues?’ In this regard, a critical assessment of the following issues is particularly necessary.
> 1. Weapon miniaturization: For MIRV requirements both the warhead and the re-entry vehicle (RV) need to be smaller and lighter. The US Minuteman-3 missile warhead had three Mk-12A RVs. The RVs had a base diameter of about 0.5 metre (m) and a length of approximately 1.81 m. Three such RVs could be accommodated within the missile shroud, which had a diameter of approximately 1 m.
> 2. Ababeel has a bulbous fairing at the top with a diameter estimated to be 1.7 m in which it may be physically possible to house three to four MIRVs of the Mk-12A type. The warhead fitting into this RV must have dimensions lower than that of the 0.5 m diameter. Has Pakistan managed such a miniature design and if so, how reliable is it?
> 3. The tests carried out by Pakistan on 28 and 30 May 1998 were all based on highly enriched uranium. Pakistan till-date not carried out any plutonium based weapon tests. The Plutonium route for warhead design is needed for developing smaller warheads required for MIRV. Without testing such a device the design confidence, performance repeatability, as well as system reliability is likely to be low. This raises the question of credibility behind Pakistan’s claims of MIRV developments.
> 4. A major requirement for a MIRV system will be the Post-Boost Control Vehicle (PBCV). The MIRV’s need to be supported on top of the PBCV, which houses a bank of liquid thrusters for 3-axis stabilization and for providing the axial thrust needed for maneuvers. In addition, each MIRV has to be positioned and released at different times during the trajectory based on the various targets that need to be reached. The MIRVs also act as a thermal protection system for their miniature warheads and protects them from the heat generated during reentry into the atmosphere.
> 5. The PBCV is essentially a missile stage housing liquid propellant tanks, pressurization tanks and banks of thrusters with intricate plumbing. Though Pakistan has exposure to liquid propulsion technology through the Ghauri missile, the same cannot directly be applied to PBCV. PBCV related developments require expertise in design and fabrication of small thrusters, fabrication of propellant and gas tanks, precision fabrication of valves, high-pressure plumbing, quality control and storable liquid propellants.
> From media reports, it would appear that Pakistan has been working on liquid propulsion systems for use on missiles. The coverage of the successful launch of Shaheen-1A in the Dawn Newspaper of 25 April 2012 included a statement that suggested the missile possessed a ‘post-separation attitude control system’ . The post-separation attitude control system (PSAC) is essentially a liquid propulsion package used for providing thrust in the axial direction as well as for stabilizing the RV. RV of Shaheen-2 by extension would incorporate this system. Shaheen-3 flight-tested twice in 2015 is said to have a range of 2750 km. The additional range seems to have been achieved by combining in the PSAC the functions of a third stage as well as stabilization. System engineering from this to a PBCV therefore seems doable.
> As argued above, the technical feasibility of a liquid propulsion package is possible, but the possibility of external help either from China or North Korea cannot be ruled out. The fact that design-engineering, testing, qualification and incorporation in three missile systems has been achieved in record time is also indicative of external support including material, component and sub-system supply.
> 6. The Notice to Mariners issued by the Pakistan Navy earmarks the missile flight range safety zone and in this case the farthest points of the safety zone are located at 1100 km from the launch range at Winder and far short of the claimed range of 2200 km. This could mean that the Ababeel flight of 24 January was a proving test of a new missile system. The lower range was the result of achieved design parameters (e.g. higher inert mass, lower propellant energetics) or by trajectory shaping. One usually expects to test a missile to its the full potential on the first developmental flight and not for a shorter range.
> To Conclude
> In summary, it would appear that Pakistan is in the process of putting together the building blocks for a MIRV capable missile. However, their assertion of possessing miniaturized warheads is open to doubt. The Chinese transfer of the CHIC-4 nuclear weapon design to Pakistan , which even involved orchestrating a test of the system for Pakistan in 1990, is well documented. According to Thomas Reed, co-author of the book ‘The Nuclear Express – A Political History of the Bomb and Its Proliferation’, the speedy response by Pakistan to the Indian nuclear tests of May 1998 was on account of the fact that they had a ‘carefully engineered device in which they had great confidence’. This confidence emanated from the receipt of the CHIC-4 design, training received by them and the test carried out by China for Pakistan in 1990 . China’s interests today are economic; China is close to achieving big power status; and has no major stake in furthering Pakistani nuclear weapon capability. Pakistan may therefore have to depend upon itself for achieving the required miniaturization of weapon systems for use in MIRVs.
> The US has built and tested a large number and variety of weapon systems. Consequently, when they undertake a re-design or reliability upgrade programme, they have reams of test data to back their design effort. In spite of this they have had number of problems and many issues related to safety. The description of accidents during carriage and other near-miss situations that US nuclear weapons have been involved in is lucidly described in the book ‘Command and Control’ authored by Eric Schlosser. Seen in this light, the reliability of an untested weapon system is open to question.
> While one can question whether the recent Ababeel can deliver on all the claims made by Pakistan there is no doubt that Pakistan will move towards maneuverable and MIRV missiles to counter Indian BMD systems. From an Indian perspective, it is necessary to continuously monitor and assess the evolution of Pakistan’s capabilities and the connections these capabilities have with Pakistan’s war-making and deterrence strategies. This will ensure that Indian responses are measured, responsible and aligned with Pakistan’s true capabilities.
> Missiles from Pakistan, irrespective of the type of warheads they carry pose a problem for India. Their very short flight times make it imperative that India develop systems for the early detection of missile launches for activating Indian countermeasures.. India will need to supplement its ground-based detection with space-based detection systems to better manage shortcomings in early warning capabilities.
> Rajaram Nagappa is Professor and Dean of the International Strategic and Security Studies Programme, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bengaluru. A noted expert on missile technology, Prof. Nagappa has specialized in aerospace propulsion and has worked extensively in the design and development of solid propellant rockets. He has made major research contributions to the analysis of Pakistani ballistic missile production capability. His recent work includes an assessment of Pakistani cruise missiles and an assessment of the Iranian satellite launch vehicle Safir.



An 'expert' who believes that complex weapon systems like ballistic missiles are test-launched for the first time as a 'response', and cannot differentiate between a heat shield and a payload fairing is no better than the news anchors blabbering like baboons.

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## waz

The Deterrent said:


> An 'expert' who believes that complex weapon systems like ballistic missiles are test-launched for the first time as a 'response', and cannot differentiate between a heat shield and a payload fairing is no better than the news anchors blabbering like baboons.



Don't forget the idiot is flogging the dead horse of Pakistan's "uranium" weapons, when the plutonium program is now what Pakistan's weapons are based off.

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## Praise Kek

The Deterrent said:


> An 'expert' who believes that complex weapon systems like ballistic missiles are test-launched for the first time as a 'response', and cannot differentiate between a heat shield and a payload fairing is no better than the news anchors blabbering like baboons.


But you yourself said a few pages back that no MIRVs were tested in this particular test.


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## The Deterrent

Praise Kek said:


> But you yourself said a few pages back that no MIRVs were tested in this particular test.


I'm afraid that you misinterpreted my posts because of inadequate knowledge. It is one thing to not deploy any RV at all, another to jettison MIRVs as multiple RVs around the same target area, and completely another to deploy MIRVs at distinct target areas.

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## Safriz

The psychological effect of Ababee MIRVl and Babur,-3 SLACM has been immense upon India.
All their internet experts and media channels were busy trying to find solace in debunking both the above missiles.
They pretend they don't believe Pakistan can have such complex technologies which they don't have. But on the other hand their ABM program has gone on steroids after these two Pakistani tests.

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## Aylith

Have to wonder if India is interested in a sea-based ABM capability in response. SM-3 block IIA, fresh off its first successful interception, in its first interception test, has a range of 1500km and an altitude of over 700km. Basing options include shore batteries like Aegis Ashore.







This arrangement is of little benefit to India which faces the dual threat of China and Pakistan being based right on its border, versus Aegis Ashore being aimed at missiles from Iran, Russia and other regional state actors outside of Europe proper, and away from Romania and Poland where Aegis Ashore is based. Fixed, requiring mammoth investments in infrastructure as well as supporting assets, such a setup in India would be a coffin.

However SM-3 can also be based at sea.





_PACIFIC OCEAN (Feb. 3, 2017) The U.S. Missile Defense Agency (MDA), the Japan Ministry of Defense (MoD), and U.S. Navy Sailors aboard the guided-missile destroyer USS John Paul Jones (DDG 53) successfully conducted a flight test Feb. 3 (Hawaii Standard Time), resulting in the first intercept of a ballistic missile target using the Standard Missile-3 (SM-3) Block IIA off the west coast of Hawaii._

Not only does this provide greater survivability as the missile is based on a moving ship packed with countermeasures of its own, likely operating as part of a unified fleet, but it affords the ability to respond to a threat profile beyond India too, such as supporting operations in the Western Pacific.

So far India's at sea defense assets include Barak 8, so-so against terminal ballistic missiles, a step down from SM-2Block IV. But the range of a weapon like SM-3 could allow it to reach deep into Pakistani airspace while the launching ship remains outside of the range of all but the most long-legged of Pakistan's aircraft and AShMs, where the range affords the ship and its fleet greater amounts of time to track and respond to incoming threats versus a shore-based system like AAD or Aegis Ashore.

Though in its infanty compared to Russian and American counterparts, and being out-paced by China too, I've no doubt India's national missile defense planners are examining or actively developing a Multi-Object Kill Vehicle analog.






Russia currently uses nuclear interceptors against mass object attacks, but is developing a similar system. China is largely an unknown, while the US uses GMD and is developing a second generation MOKV (Gen 1 shown above) to counter MIRV assaults by peer adversaries. It too previously used nuclear interceptors including the Nike series, Sprint and Spartan.






Pakistan, like Russia facing the threat of PAC-3, THAAD, SM-2 and SM-3 (at sea and on land) can respond through the increased use of quasi-ballistic missiles like NASR or through the increased use of cruise missiles like Ra'ad and Babur, though the survivability of the later is questionable given India's advances and procurement of advanced air-defense systems like Spyder.

Traveling in a depressed trajectory, able to make radical mid-flight maneuvers including top-attack, mirroring a cross between a cruise and ballistic missile, a system like ATACMS or Iskander-M, with a range greater then NASR and greater levels of maneuverability and accuracy would complicate any interception by India markedly. They're able to make unpredictable movements which complicate even the most advanced of fire-control and tracking systems used by ABM missiles, which predict where a target is going to be at a given time and lead themselves towards it, using guidance systems like IIR and MMW radars to keep their eyes on the target and make any necessary corrections to their tracking calculations.

However, especially radical maneuvers can complicate their ability to intercept targets and quasi-ballistic missiles, flight low and fast and being maneuverable, were designed to do just that.






Another option, one Pakistan kind of already has, but one that could see greater levels of sophistication and intelligence, is the use of "smart" cruise missiles able to take radial, unpredictable flight paths and make similar maneuvers. Again, the Russians provide a blueprint with Iskander-K, a missile designed to counter European, American and allied missile defense networks.






Babur is a fair replacement, but its lacks the sophistication and intelligence of the Iskander-K system. Augmenting or updating its brains would go a long way to complicating India's interception capabilities. Norway's JSM is another weapon capable of making radical, random terminal and mid-flight maneuvers designed to complicate tracking and interception.

Ababeel is a good stepping stone, but ultimately I believe it shouldn't represent an operational capability. Rather, it should be a developmental platform to test, evaluate and refine and the technologies of MRV, MaRV, MBRV and MIRV warhead buses, leading to a more refined design later.

Interesting times on either side of the border. Both have options against the other, both are willing to play the long-game and it'll be interesting to watch the steps either takes to improve the calculus in their favor.

Just my two cents.



شاھین میزایل said:


> They pretend they don't believe Pakistan can have such complex technologies which they don't have. But on the other hand their ABM program has gone on steroids after these two Pakistani tests.



Both sides need to work more. India's ABM capabilities are lacking against the complex array of targets Pakistan and China can throw at them, but then, Pakistan has more work to do to demonstrate a valid MIRV capability which is still largely questionable.

Both sides are making progress and the real test is who can make greater progress more quickly, outpacing the other and seizing a critical advantage for themselves?



The Deterrent said:


> An 'expert' who believes that complex weapon systems like ballistic missiles are test-launched for the first time as a 'response', and cannot differentiate between a heat shield and a payload fairing



The analysis have been juvenile at best, that's true. But it also can be difficult to tell the difference between a cap-shroud (as opposed to the clam-shell design of the GBI system) and heat-shield.

A close look, even by an amateur like myself clearly indicates Ababeel is making use of cap-style payload shroud like Peacekeeper or Jupiter and not a single, unitary MRV or warhead utilizing a heat shield for re-entry, unlike Jupiter-C where the nose-cone did reenter along with the warhead and featured an ablative heat shield. Jupiter-C was a developmental program however, designed to test materials to be used on MIRV warheads in later programs and was not an operational missile system (research yes, but military no).






France's retired S3 IRBM also helps show this. Without the cutaway it can be a tad difficult to tell the difference, though that doesn't excuse the amateurish assessments being made either. Generally the warhead itself is encased in its own heat shield, which again, S3 shows.






Any MIRV and most MBRVs do not have heat shields around their warhead bus, just hardened warheads themselves as the shroud will be jettisoned long before reentry. Of course I don't need to tell you this, given how well versed you are on the matter, but it's a helpful reminder for others too.

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## Incog_nito

Pakistan needs to work properly on space program and on ballastic missiles.

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## The Accountant

Praise Kek said:


> Does Pakistan’s Ababeel Medium Range Ballistic Missile Really Have MIRV Capability?
> 3429 By Rajaram Nagappa - February 3, 2017
> 
> It is not unusual to see news of a Pakistani ballistic missile launch close on the heels of an Indian ballistic missile event. The launch of Agni 5 took place on 26 December last year followed by the launch of Agni 4 a week later. For the Pakistani missile establishment, the year 2016 was a comparatively quiet year and one did expect a response to the Agni launches. Sure enough, Pakistan carried out a missile test – it was not another training or pre-deployment test of Shaheen 2 or Shaheen 3, but the test of a new missile called Ababeel on 24 January 2017. The missile is claimed to have a range of 2200 km and is said to be capable of carrying Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Vehicles (MIRV).
> Unlike the Shaheen 2, the new missile has three stages. The Ababeel thermal fairing (heat shield) has a larger diameter than its core vehicle. The extra volume thus available is consistent with the requirements for MIRV capabilities. It must however, be noted that there are a number of technical constraints that have to be overcome before one can infer that Pakistan has succeeded in developing MIRV capability.
> MIRV, as the name implies replaces a unitary warhead with a larger number of smaller warheads, with each of them programmed for different targets. It is therefore a more potent and powerful attack system. In a global scenario where a number of countries are developing Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) Systems, MIRV capability is needed to overwhelm such defences. Many BMD systems have capability limitations when it comes to dealing with multiple incoming warheads and may fail to engage all of them. By increasing the number of warheads along with decoys deployed with the real ones, BMD systems can be saturated. The US and Russia field such MIRV weapon systems and the numbers they field are governed by the strategic arms limitation treaty between them. The Chinese are also said to have incorporated MIRV in their DF 5, DF-31 and the JL 2 (the submarine launched version of the DF-31) ballistic missiles.
> Over the last several years India has carried out a number of tests related to terminal phase BMD. These involve the interception of the warhead outside the atmosphere just before the re-entry of the incoming missile. For a country confronted with such an adversary, developing MIRV capability is the logical technology growth route to follow. One is therefore not surprised if Pakistan were to adopt such a route.
> The rhetoric in the Pakistani establishment against Indian ABM capability is indicative of this. Sartaj Aziz, Pakistan’s advisor on Foreign Affairs is reported to have commented in June last year that India’s testing of anti ballistic missile system could lead to ‘unexpected complications’ . He is further stated to have told the Pakistani senate that Pakistan has serious concerns over these developments and will take ‘all necessary measures to augment its defence capabilities’.
> Has Pakistan really overcome the technological challenges?
> Though it is easy to express a need for the development of MIRV capabilities realizing it requires significant advances in a number of key technologies. The question to ask before we come to any conclusion is ‘Has Pakistan been able to master and overcome all the technical issues?’ In this regard, a critical assessment of the following issues is particularly necessary.
> 1. Weapon miniaturization: For MIRV requirements both the warhead and the re-entry vehicle (RV) need to be smaller and lighter. The US Minuteman-3 missile warhead had three Mk-12A RVs. The RVs had a base diameter of about 0.5 metre (m) and a length of approximately 1.81 m. Three such RVs could be accommodated within the missile shroud, which had a diameter of approximately 1 m.
> 2. Ababeel has a bulbous fairing at the top with a diameter estimated to be 1.7 m in which it may be physically possible to house three to four MIRVs of the Mk-12A type. The warhead fitting into this RV must have dimensions lower than that of the 0.5 m diameter. Has Pakistan managed such a miniature design and if so, how reliable is it?
> 3. The tests carried out by Pakistan on 28 and 30 May 1998 were all based on highly enriched uranium. Pakistan till-date not carried out any plutonium based weapon tests. The Plutonium route for warhead design is needed for developing smaller warheads required for MIRV. Without testing such a device the design confidence, performance repeatability, as well as system reliability is likely to be low. This raises the question of credibility behind Pakistan’s claims of MIRV developments.
> 4. A major requirement for a MIRV system will be the Post-Boost Control Vehicle (PBCV). The MIRV’s need to be supported on top of the PBCV, which houses a bank of liquid thrusters for 3-axis stabilization and for providing the axial thrust needed for maneuvers. In addition, each MIRV has to be positioned and released at different times during the trajectory based on the various targets that need to be reached. The MIRVs also act as a thermal protection system for their miniature warheads and protects them from the heat generated during reentry into the atmosphere.
> 5. The PBCV is essentially a missile stage housing liquid propellant tanks, pressurization tanks and banks of thrusters with intricate plumbing. Though Pakistan has exposure to liquid propulsion technology through the Ghauri missile, the same cannot directly be applied to PBCV. PBCV related developments require expertise in design and fabrication of small thrusters, fabrication of propellant and gas tanks, precision fabrication of valves, high-pressure plumbing, quality control and storable liquid propellants.
> From media reports, it would appear that Pakistan has been working on liquid propulsion systems for use on missiles. The coverage of the successful launch of Shaheen-1A in the Dawn Newspaper of 25 April 2012 included a statement that suggested the missile possessed a ‘post-separation attitude control system’ . The post-separation attitude control system (PSAC) is essentially a liquid propulsion package used for providing thrust in the axial direction as well as for stabilizing the RV. RV of Shaheen-2 by extension would incorporate this system. Shaheen-3 flight-tested twice in 2015 is said to have a range of 2750 km. The additional range seems to have been achieved by combining in the PSAC the functions of a third stage as well as stabilization. System engineering from this to a PBCV therefore seems doable.
> As argued above, the technical feasibility of a liquid propulsion package is possible, but the possibility of external help either from China or North Korea cannot be ruled out. The fact that design-engineering, testing, qualification and incorporation in three missile systems has been achieved in record time is also indicative of external support including material, component and sub-system supply.
> 6. The Notice to Mariners issued by the Pakistan Navy earmarks the missile flight range safety zone and in this case the farthest points of the safety zone are located at 1100 km from the launch range at Winder and far short of the claimed range of 2200 km. This could mean that the Ababeel flight of 24 January was a proving test of a new missile system. The lower range was the result of achieved design parameters (e.g. higher inert mass, lower propellant energetics) or by trajectory shaping. One usually expects to test a missile to its the full potential on the first developmental flight and not for a shorter range.
> To Conclude
> In summary, it would appear that Pakistan is in the process of putting together the building blocks for a MIRV capable missile. However, their assertion of possessing miniaturized warheads is open to doubt. The Chinese transfer of the CHIC-4 nuclear weapon design to Pakistan , which even involved orchestrating a test of the system for Pakistan in 1990, is well documented. According to Thomas Reed, co-author of the book ‘The Nuclear Express – A Political History of the Bomb and Its Proliferation’, the speedy response by Pakistan to the Indian nuclear tests of May 1998 was on account of the fact that they had a ‘carefully engineered device in which they had great confidence’. This confidence emanated from the receipt of the CHIC-4 design, training received by them and the test carried out by China for Pakistan in 1990 . China’s interests today are economic; China is close to achieving big power status; and has no major stake in furthering Pakistani nuclear weapon capability. Pakistan may therefore have to depend upon itself for achieving the required miniaturization of weapon systems for use in MIRVs.
> The US has built and tested a large number and variety of weapon systems. Consequently, when they undertake a re-design or reliability upgrade programme, they have reams of test data to back their design effort. In spite of this they have had number of problems and many issues related to safety. The description of accidents during carriage and other near-miss situations that US nuclear weapons have been involved in is lucidly described in the book ‘Command and Control’ authored by Eric Schlosser. Seen in this light, the reliability of an untested weapon system is open to question.
> While one can question whether the recent Ababeel can deliver on all the claims made by Pakistan there is no doubt that Pakistan will move towards maneuverable and MIRV missiles to counter Indian BMD systems. From an Indian perspective, it is necessary to continuously monitor and assess the evolution of Pakistan’s capabilities and the connections these capabilities have with Pakistan’s war-making and deterrence strategies. This will ensure that Indian responses are measured, responsible and aligned with Pakistan’s true capabilities.
> Missiles from Pakistan, irrespective of the type of warheads they carry pose a problem for India. Their very short flight times make it imperative that India develop systems for the early detection of missile launches for activating Indian countermeasures.. India will need to supplement its ground-based detection with space-based detection systems to better manage shortcomings in early warning capabilities.
> Rajaram Nagappa is Professor and Dean of the International Strategic and Security Studies Programme, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bengaluru. A noted expert on missile technology, Prof. Nagappa has specialized in aerospace propulsion and has worked extensively in the design and development of solid propellant rockets. He has made major research contributions to the analysis of Pakistani ballistic missile production capability. His recent work includes an assessment of Pakistani cruise missiles and an assessment of the Iranian satellite launch vehicle Safir.


Pakistan has already achieved miniturisation of warhead through nasar ... so wakeup man ... your denial mode will not change realities of the world ...

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## Safriz

You know what, this one was called Ababeel-1 and not Hatf or Shaheen with some number.
This is a new series of Missiles , and there will be Ababeel-2 .
The movie has just started.

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## Ultima Thule

Gregor Clegane said:


> TBH no MIRVs were tested in the Ababeel test in January.


how do you Know? are you a fake Indian expert

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## asimnabeel0

Masha allah , long live pakistan

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## kabooter_maila

Gregor Clegane said:


> TBH no MIRVs were tested in the Ababeel test in January.


Good for you! At least you should have no worries now after your 'honest' finding. Why all other Indians have loose motions then? Please try convincing them with your incredible discovery.

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## Comrade

Nice missile.....


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## sparten

The problem with Mid-Course interception for MIRV missile is that it is not practicable, at least for a ground based system. The way an MIRV bus works is that it is launched on a trajectory, like a Single warhead. So far so good. But the defensive system still has to acquire and target and vector the interceptor to the bus. Which means 

i) Has to make a fire solution.
ii) Once that is done, it has to go through the entire atmosphere and defeat the force of gravity. 
i, can see time improved with improved processing times; ii, is an inherent limitation, esepcially in the thicker lower atmosphere.

Making it worse while a Single Warhead will travel to its target on a known trajectory; an MIRV bus has motors/engines for thrust. It will release one RV, then burn to put itself on a different trajectory for the next RV release, burn again, release and so on until the warheads are all on their way. So the fire solution that I have mentioned above, is only good for the bus in cruise before it has released its warheads, or more accurately before its first burn to release warhead no 2. Afterwards, the Interceptor's firing solution will no longer be valid.

Not to mention when the first warhead hits; everyone on the ground is going to stop worrying about destroyed the incoming RV's and start trying not to die.

This is not even considering making a burn late in the Bus's coast and only then releasing the first RV. That takes care of that for any interceptor.

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## The SC

ShoutB said:


> No personal comments
> 
> I read your all posts.
> 
> only this one is where you made something relevant to thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Going by the limit of NAVERA warning it means only one warhead was used.
> 
> If MIRVd
> The missile is 3 staged and one PBV. This means the missile has released the RV somewhere close to 1500kms from Launchpad. And the PBV travelled another 300 kms to reach the hostile airspace. so not it is at 1800 kms.
> 
> For RVs to reach and hit 2200km mark , it should be released NOW. Because the ballistic coefficient (ß) needs to be between 1000 -5000 other wise either the warhead will burn while re entry or will lose the speed and fall off the sky( ß = lower than 1000) taking shape to be conical/blunt. The RV with above coefficient would travel another 280-310 kms before hitting the zone.
> 
> Now:
> There won't be time left to release another two warheads as they will now either burn while re entry or not fall on the target or bounce back in space.
> 
> So there fore this missile for surely tested with single warhead/ no warhead.
> 
> Because this distance is too short for a ballistic coefficient (ß) to be between 1000-5000 which modern MIRV warheads have. The warhead will burn in the atmosphere during re entry because the angle of attack would be steep close to 75 degrees for this distance. And there won't be much time left to release the second one as the angle would be steeper or too flat.
> 
> This is why MIRV is used for ICBM or 3000+ km range! But for MRV equation is balanced.


Pakistani scientists know this beta coefficient, that is why they have tested let's say only one IRV from the 3 (with 2 others absent from the test) for the distance of the test _1200 km_ just to validate how MIRVs are injected in their individual suborbital trajectories, does that make sense to you NOW ?

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## sparten

Whoa, who said that MIRV were not tested in the Ababeel test?


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## Safriz

https://m.facebook.com/video_redire...hrowback_story_fbid.1156280501150799&__tn__=F


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## Safriz

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1156280501150799


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## Safriz

If ababeel carries Abdali warhead, it can carry 7.

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## amardeep mishra

شاھین میزایل said:


> If ababeel carries Abdali warhead, it can carry 7.


Hi shaheen missile!
Can anyone of you kindly elaborate what is-
1) Throw weight of ababeel?
2) When are they actually planning to demonstrate changing of bus trajectory or orbital manuveres to insert RVs in different orbits.
A serious discussion on these two would be really great.
The things as I see is, Pakistan hasnt progressed beyond 1.4m dia solid motors and that is the reason why you see a difference in diameter between the payload fairing and rest of the missile. That is nothing bad, it just means they have not moved beyond 1.4m dia. And since they use the same tried and tested 1.4m dia solid rocket in 1st and 2nd stage, there is a limit to the max apogee attained and max velocity attained(at burnout point)-- and that is perhaps the reason why it has a range of only 2200kms.
If pakistan wants a true IRBM missile with MIRV capability- it would have to work on various fronts to bridge the gap between India and pakistani strategic delivery systems. Some of them are-
1) Using composites all along 1,2 and 3 stage instead of maraging steel. -- Also note it is very difficult to store liquid propellants in composite cases.
2) Discarding the truss structure completely at stage separation.
3) Implementing flex nozzle instead of vanes.
and finally if they want to increase the range to at least 3000kms, they would have to increase the velocity at burnout point which in turn decides the apogee and the range. And for that they would have to gradually move onto bigger dia rockets of at least 1.8m class.
@The Deterrent 
Any news on research work on bigger dia solid motor?

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## The Deterrent

amardeep mishra said:


> Hi shaheen missile!
> Can anyone of you kindly elaborate what is-
> 1) Throw weight of ababeel?
> 2) When are they actually planning to demonstrate changing of bus trajectory or orbital manuveres to insert RVs in different orbits.


1) Enough to deliver multiple strategic nuclear warheads.
2) They won't 'demonstrate' anything for internet fanboys via videos. Independent observers (who are usually in the habit of lingering around the impact area outside the safety corridor) can verify everything for themselves and communicate it to the 'concerned' parties.



amardeep mishra said:


> The things as I see is, Pakistan hasnt progressed beyond 1.4m dia solid motors and that is the reason why you see a difference in diameter between the payload fairing and rest of the missile. That is nothing bad, it just means they have not moved beyond 1.4m dia. And since they use the same tried and tested 1.4m dia solid rocket in 1st and 2nd stage, there is a limit to the max apogee attained and max velocity attained(at burnout point)-- and that is perhaps the reason why it has a range of only 2200kms.
> If pakistan wants a true IRBM missile with MIRV capability- it would have to work on various fronts to bridge the gap between India and pakistani strategic delivery systems.


Fortunately, Pakistan's needs are being covered for the time-being without any 'true' IRBM. Pakistan is a nation with very limited financial and technical resources, which is why it is making-do with what it has.

As I've been saying before, Pakistani nukes won't be any inferior just because the missiles don't have flex nozzles. They are still effective as a deterrent, irrespective of the technology. As long as the deterrence is being guaranteed, it doesn't matters _how _the nuke destroys the target.

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## Sameer25

they says its a mirv but when i check it said, claimed but not demostrated


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## amardeep mishra

The Deterrent said:


> Independent observers (who are usually in the habit of lingering around the impact area outside the safety corridor) can verify everything for themselves and communicate it to the 'concerned' parties.


@The Deterrent
Yeah that is correct and I agree with you. But I find it difficult for pakistan to not use this achievement as a propaganda value to claim they have surpassed India in terms of delivery systems. SO, as and when pakistan actually accomplishes this feat, folks like Samar Mubarkmand will showcase it to the public.


The Deterrent said:


> Fortunately, Pakistan's needs are being covered for the time-being without any 'true' IRBM. Pakistan is a nation with very limited financial and technical resources, which is why it is making-do with what it has.
> 
> As I've been saying before, Pakistani nukes won't be any inferior just because the missiles don't have flex nozzles. They are still effective as a deterrent, irrespective of the technology. As long as the deterrence is being guaranteed, it doesn't matters _how _the nuke destroys the target.


Sure I agree with most of what you have written above, I was merely responding to Mr Shaheen Missile's remarks wherein he claimed ababeel could carry 7 MIRVs. It was at this point I thought of having a discussion as to what is the throw weight of this rocket. And since the first 2 stages of ababeel are directly derived off shaheens, I dont think there will be any significant improvement in throw weight capacity. Also the third stage you mentioned is probably for inserting RVs in different orbits. I guess only time will tell if they are able to demonstrate insertion of RVs in different orbits.
And of course pakistani nukes are as effective as ours, I wasnt even talking about the warheads, I was rather talking about the "delivery systems".

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## Thorough Pro

We know where we stand, besides we are not in the business of propaganda or dick measuring contest with anyone.



amardeep mishra said:


> @The Deterrent
> Yeah that is correct and I agree with you. But *I find it difficult for pakistan to not use this achievement as a propaganda value to claim they have surpassed India in terms of delivery systems*. SO, as and when pakistan actually accomplishes this feat, folks like Samar Mubarkmand will showcase it to the public.
> 
> Sure I agree with most of what you have written above, I was merely responding to Mr Shaheen Missile's remarks wherein he claimed ababeel could carry 7 MIRVs. It was at this point I thought of having a discussion as to what is the throw weight of this rocket. And since the first 2 stages of ababeel are directly derived off shaheens, I dont think there will be any significant improvement in throw weight capacity. Also the third stage you mentioned is probably for inserting RVs in different orbits. I guess only time will tell if they are able to demonstrate insertion of RVs in different orbits.
> And of course pakistani nukes are as effective as ours, I wasnt even talking about the warheads, I was rather talking about the "delivery systems".


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## amardeep mishra

Thorough Pro said:


> We know where we stand, besides we are not in the business of propaganda or dick measuring contest with anyone.


How many times have you seen a sitting Director General DRDO claiming their missile to be superior to Pakistan's(I am talking about interviews given to national media or interviews published in any decent magazine etc)? However I have seen the vice versa many times. Also while in most of the interviews DG DRDO talks of technology and the challenges they faced while designing the system, you will rarely find folks like Samar Mubarakmand going into either the technical aspect or the challenges they faced. The written interviews of Samar Mubarakmand and Avinash Chander are way different-- while former always talk about their missiles with a thinly veiled propaganda mixed into it(like how their strategic missiles are superior to India's etc) , latter mostly talks about technology his organization is working on and the challenges they faces and how they overcame it.

PS: I am specifically talking about DG and not some random "defence analysts".

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## The Deterrent

amardeep mishra said:


> @The Deterrent
> Yeah that is correct and I agree with you. But I find it difficult for pakistan to not use this achievement as a propaganda value to claim they have surpassed India in terms of delivery systems. SO, as and when pakistan actually accomplishes this feat, folks like Samar Mubarkmand will showcase it to the public.


All in good time.



amardeep mishra said:


> Sure I agree with most of what you have written above, I was merely responding to Mr Shaheen Missile's remarks wherein he claimed ababeel could carry 7 MIRVs. It was at this point I thought of having a discussion as to what is the throw weight of this rocket. And since the first 2 stages of ababeel are directly derived off shaheens, I dont think there will be any significant improvement in throw weight capacity. Also the third stage you mentioned is probably for inserting RVs in different orbits. I guess only time will tell if they are able to demonstrate insertion of RVs in different orbits.
> And of course pakistani nukes are as effective as ours, I wasnt even talking about the warheads, I was rather talking about the "delivery systems".


LOL, funny that the use of composites decrease overall mass and increase payload capacity in case of India alone.
In case you didn't notice, it was termed as 'Ababeel-1' by most news channels. Use your brain, and stop underestimating Pakistan. I've lost the count of the occasions on which Pakistan has surprised the likes of you.

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## amardeep mishra

The Deterrent said:


> LOL, funny that the use of composites decrease overall mass and increase payload capacity in case of India alone.
> In case you didn't notice, it was termed as 'Ababeel-1' by most news channels. Use your brain, and stop underestimating Pakistan. I've lost the count of the occasions on which Pakistan has surprised the likes of you.


@The Deterrent
if by surprise you mean "fake videos" and ISPR propaganda then yes why not--I am indeed surprised!
On a serious note though, when was the last time pakistan used any composites in any of the stages? Why would I under estimate an enemy that cant even produce the maraging steel?-- but then again you dont have to as you have China to supply you maraging steel. My point is simple, as of now none of the pakistani strategic missiles have composite casing-- you can correct me with verifiable and credible evidences-- also note forged videos do not count as verifiable and credible proof.


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## The Deterrent

amardeep mishra said:


> @The Deterrent
> if by surprise you mean "fake videos" and ISPR propaganda then yes why not--I am indeed surprised!
> On a serious note though, when was the last time pakistan used any composites in any of the stages? Why would I under estimate an enemy that cant even produce the maraging steel?-- but then again you dont have to as you have China to supply you maraging steel. My point is simple, as of now none of the pakistani strategic missiles have composite casing-- you can correct me with verifiable and credible evidences-- also note forged videos do not count as verifiable and credible proof.


Stopped reading after "fake videos"...not worth my time.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

amardeep mishra said:


> @The Deterrent
> Yeah that is correct and I agree with you. But I find it difficult for pakistan to not use this achievement as a propaganda value to claim they have surpassed India in terms of delivery systems. SO, as and when pakistan actually accomplishes this feat, folks like Samar Mubarkmand will showcase it to the public.
> 
> Sure I agree with most of what you have written above, I was merely responding to Mr Shaheen Missile's remarks wherein he claimed ababeel could carry 7 MIRVs. It was at this point I thought of having a discussion as to what is the throw weight of this rocket. And since the first 2 stages of ababeel are directly derived off shaheens, I dont think there will be any significant improvement in throw weight capacity. Also the third stage you mentioned is probably for inserting RVs in different orbits. I guess only time will tell if they are able to demonstrate insertion of RVs in different orbits.
> And of course pakistani nukes are as effective as ours, I wasnt even talking about the warheads, I was rather talking about the "delivery systems".






EPIC FAIL.........Far too much conjecture. Not only does Pakistan have MIRV, but it is probably more advanced than what it is publicly admitting to. 

20 odd years ago, indians like you were claiming that it is impossible for Pakistan to EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That the americans & co would stop Pakistan from acquiring them on india's behest . We all know how that indianism turned out. Just as then, so is now. 

Ever wondered why that despite the rhetoric, constant threats & hot air, india remains far too weak, powerless and impotent to attack Pakistan? Like it was after mumbai 2008 & uri 2016? That too despite the fact that india is more than 7x bigger than us and has abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege? The answers like in these facts not in long winded conjecture.

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## Sameer25

amardeep mishra said:


> @The Deterrent
> Yeah that is correct and I agree with you. But I find it difficult for pakistan to not use this achievement as a propaganda value to claim they have surpassed India in terms of delivery systems. SO, as and when pakistan actually accomplishes this feat, folks like Samar Mubarkmand will showcase it to the public.
> 
> Sure I agree with most of what you have written above, I was merely responding to Mr Shaheen Missile's remarks wherein he claimed ababeel could carry 7 MIRVs. It was at this point I thought of having a discussion as to what is the throw weight of this rocket. And since the first 2 stages of ababeel are directly derived off shaheens, I dont think there will be any significant improvement in throw weight capacity. Also the third stage you mentioned is probably for inserting RVs in different orbits. I guess only time will tell if they are able to demonstrate insertion of RVs in different orbits.
> And of course pakistani nukes are as effective as ours, I wasnt even talking about the warheads, I was rather talking about the "delivery systems".


i think paksitan has overall better nukes but india has overall better delivery

which is overkill because pakistan is right next door


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## Falcon26

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> EPIC FAIL.........Far too much conjecture. Not only does Pakistan have MIRV, but it is probably more advanced than what it is publicly admitting to.
> 
> 20 odd years ago, indians like you were claiming that it is impossible for Pakistan to EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That the americans & co would stop Pakistan from acquiring them on india's behest . We all know how that indianism turned out. Just as then, so is now.
> 
> Ever wondered why that despite the rhetoric, constant threats & hot air, india remains far too weak, powerless and impotent to attack Pakistan? Like it was after mumbai 2008 & uri 2016? That too despite the fact that india is more than 7x bigger than us and has abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege? The answers like in these facts not in long winded conjecture.



After India tested its nukes in 1998, the Indian PM said Pakistan should know its place and respect India since it was now an atomic power. The Indians could simply not admit that Pakistan also had the nukes. We all know what happened few weeks later. This self claimed scientist is suffering from similar ailment. In time, he will come around.



Sameer25 said:


> i think paksitan has overall better nukes but india has overall better delivery
> 
> which is overkill because pakistan is right next door



What are you basing this on? Stop making comments for the sake of it. Back up your assertions.

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## Reichsmarschall

Sameer25 said:


> they says its a mirv but when i check it said, claimed but not demostrated


and that will never ever be demonstrated


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## Sameer25

Falcon26 said:


> What are you basing this on? Stop making comments for the sake of it. Back up your assertions.


pakistan has a bigger stockpile than india and a lerger yield. it also has tactical nukes. while india currently has a longer range and a faster delivery system


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## Ultima Thule

Sameer25 said:


> pakistan has a bigger stockpile than india and a lerger yield. it also has tactical nukes. while india currently has a longer range and a faster delivery system


Faster? Please explain bro what do you mean faster?


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## The SC

pakistanipower said:


> Faster? Please explain bro what do you mean faster?


He is thinking about the Indian hypersonic Brahmos project.. while in reality Pakistan might introduce the technology before them..And since China has already tested its own and is known to be working closely with Pakistan on all kind of weapons' projects..this shouldn't come as a surprise..

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## Reichsmarschall

The SC said:


> He is thinking about the Indian hypersonic Brahmos project.. while in reality Pakistan might introduce the technology before them..And since China has already tested its own and is known to be working closely with Pakistan on all kind of weapons' projects..this shouldn't come as a surprise..


are you talking about HGV?


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## The SC

Narendra Trump said:


> are you talking about HGV?


Well, that too, and there are other chines projects for Hypersonic missiles..

*new 3,800mph ‘hypersonic’ missiles*
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3790596/china-hypersonic-missiles-russia-weapons-warfare-future/


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## Reichsmarschall

The SC said:


> Well, that too, and there are other chines projects for Hypersonic missiles..


Ballistic missiles or Cruise missile? which one will Pakistan get?


----------



## The SC

Narendra Trump said:


> Ballistic missiles or Cruise missile? which one will Pakistan get?


We are talking about some advanced up-to-date technologies..and since Pakistan has both BMs and CMs it will most likely seek to develop and get the new tech concerning them..

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## Ultima Thule

The SC said:


> He is thinking about the Indian hypersonic Brahmos project.. while in reality Pakistan might introduce the technology before them..And since China has already tested its own and is known to be working closely with Pakistan on all kind of weapons' projects..this shouldn't come as a surprise..


No sir he is talking about delivery system


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## The SC

pakistanipower said:


> No sir he is talking about delivery system


 So if it is the delivery system!? Pakistan missiles use solid fuel, and are known to use better technologies than Indian systems..including the delivery systems which means the missiles as a whole.. He said faster.. I said no..

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## Ultima Thule

The SC said:


> So if it is the delivery system!? Pakistan missiles use solid fuel, and are known to use better technologies than Indian systems..including the delivery systems which means the missiles as a whole.. He said faster.. I said no..


Is he talking about TELS and silos Sir I'm really confused sir


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## Reichsmarschall

pakistanipower said:


> Is he talking about TELS and silos Sir I'm really confused sir


Brahmouse i think


----------



## The SC

pakistanipower said:


> Is he talking about TELS and silos Sir I'm really confused sir


How can TEl's and Silos be faster sir?.. the best he could have thought of is the response time.. and that Pakistan is as fast if not much faster..

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## Ultima Thule

The SC said:


> How can TEl's and Silos be faster sir?.. the best he could have thought of is the response time.. and that Pakistan is as fast if not much faster..


Is India has a TEls or both?


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## The SC

pakistanipower said:


> Is India has a TEls or both?


TEls for sure.. Silos.. I haven' heard of it..

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## Safriz

The SC said:


> TEls for sure.. Silos.. I haven' heard of it..


Pakistan is too narrow for leaving missiles in Silo. Enemy can reach a Silo in 20 minutes.

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## Ultima Thule

شاھین میزایل said:


> Pakistan is too narrow for leaving missiles in Silo. Enemy can reach a Silo in 20 minutes.


Sir Pakistan is directly developed TEl's never heard that Pakistan developed Silos, remember 1st launch of ghauri missile test, directly from a TELs, as far as i know

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## The SC

شاھین میزایل said:


> Pakistan is too narrow for leaving missiles in Silo. Enemy can reach a Silo in 20 minutes.


The question was about India.. do they have any silos?


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## Safriz

The SC said:


> The question was about India.. do they have any silos?


after agni-5 canister launch...there is a possibility as Canister and silo launch arent much different.


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## Riz

The SC said:


> Well, that too, and there are other chines projects for Hypersonic missiles..
> 
> *new 3,800mph ‘hypersonic’ missiles*
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3790596/china-hypersonic-missiles-russia-weapons-warfare-future/


lol.. first try to fly a subsonic nirbhay cruise missile then dram about hypersonic mijjiles.. as for we knew you have failed to make your own version of cruise missile, only an old yokohant missile which you ensembled in india currently in working


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## The SC

Riz said:


> lol.. first try to fly a subsonic nirbhay cruise missile then dram about hypersonic mijjiles.. as for we knew you have failed to make your own version of cruise missile, only an old yokohant missile which you ensembled in india currently in working


You are quoting the wrong guy I am not Indian..read before you post, ok?

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## Riz

The SC said:


> You are quoting the wrong guy I am not Indian..read before you post, ok?


lol my bad.. sorry my mistake i quoted wrongly i think

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## The SC

شاھین میزایل said:


> after agni-5 canister launch...there is a possibility as Canister and silo launch arent much different.


Silos need underground tunnels and networks..they are static, while the canisters can be mobile..that is the difference..


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## Torbat Khan

i think the range of this missile is greater then shown anyone knows the true range


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## kurkak

I think range of this missile it's enough


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## The-Hack

Torbat Khan said:


> i think the range of this missile is greater then shown anyone knows the true range


can you disclose the exact range of this missile, please................... i think you may know the true range......???


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## Spy Master

The-Hack said:


> can you disclose the exact range of this missile, please................... i think you may know the true range......???


why would you need that?

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## The-Hack

Spy Master said:


> why would you need that?


Nothing special just for increase in journal knowledge about this beauty, is this reason is enough to know about range???

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## fatman17

Robert Ashley Dir. of #US Defense Intelligence (DIA), stated this week: “In January 2017, #Pakistan conducted the first test launch of its nuclear-capable "Ababeel" ballistic missile, demonstrating South Asia’s first MIRV payload.” Leaving #India behind.
https://t.co/1ICIoErRCz

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## fatman17

Range of Ababeel

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## fatman17

China Acknowledges Sale Of Advanced Missile Technology To Pakistan

March 22, 2018

SCOTT NEUMAN


Pakistan test fires its new Ababeel surface-to-surface ballistic missile in Pakistan on Jan. 24, 2017. Ababeel has a maximum range of 1,350 miles and is capable of delivering multiple warheads using multiple independent re-entry vehicle technology, according to Pakistani sources.
Anadolu Agency/Getty Images
Updated at 6:40 a.m. ET

China has sold Pakistan an advanced tracking system that could boost Islamabad's efforts to improve ballistic missiles capable of delivering multiple warheads, according to The South China Morning Post.

The website of the Chinese Academy of Sciences announced the deal with Pakistan, and Zheng Mengwei, a researcher with the CAS Institute of Optics and Electronics, confirmed to the Post that the purchase was of a "highly sophisticated large-scale optical tracking and measurement system."

The newspaper writes:

"An optical system is a critical component in missile testing. It usually comes with a pair of high-performance telescopes equipped with a laser ranger, high-speed camera, infrared detector and a centralised computer system that automatically captures and follows moving targets.

The device records high-resolution images of a missile's departure from its launcher, stage separation, tail flame and, after the missile re-enters atmosphere, the trajectory of the warheads it releases."


The CAS said a Chinese team spent three months in Pakistan helping calibrate the system. "The system's performance surpassed the user's expectations," it said, adding that it was considerably more complex than Pakistan's home-made systems, the newspaper said.

Although ostensibly for missile testing, it is similar to technology deployed in ballistic missile defense systems.

Rival India has been working on a missile defense system, which it claims to have successfully tested late last year. Meanwhile, Pakistan has concentrated on a possible countermeasure. In January 2017, it tested a missile that reportedly can deliver multiple warheads, known as MIRVs, which can greatly increase the number of incoming targets, possibly overwhelming missile defense systems.

Pakistan, after its first successful launch of the MIRV-capable missile, known as Ababeel, said in a statement that it is "aimed at ensuring survivability of Pakistan's ballistic missiles in the growing regional Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) environment."

India and Pakistan have been locked in a nuclear arms race since the two countries openly conducted nuclear weapons tests within days of one another in May 1998. Since that time, their respective rocket and missile programs have also proceeded swiftly, frequently raising tensions in the South Asian region.

On Thursday, India's Defense Minister Nirmala Sitharaman announced the successful launch of a supersonic cruise missile, the BrahMos, jointly developed by India and Russia. One version is an anti-ship missile, and the army also has fielded its own variant. India is working on yet another version that could be launched from a Sukoi Su-30 fighter jet.

China, which also views India as a regional rival, has long been recognized as the covert benefactor of Pakistan's nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs, providing technical know-how and expertise.

Last year, Pakistan deployed a Chinese-made low-to-medium altitude air defense system (LOMAD).

But the latest public statement by Beijing of a deal with Islamabad for such sensitive technology is rare — and possibly meant as a signal to New Delhi, with whom it has had recent border tensions, and possibly the U.S., which has increasingly tilted toward India in recent decades, especially amid what is viewed as Pakistan's tepid commitment to shutting down Islamic extremism.

In January, President Trump tweeted that Pakistan had given the U.S. "nothing but lies [and] deceit" in exchange for billions of dollars in foreign aid.


----------



## Salza

Testing range equipment which recently got operational


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## dilpakistani

no display of Ababeel in today's parade..


----------



## fatman17

A telescope unit forming part of the Chinese tracking system, deployed at Pakistan's missile testing facility. Photo: Handout
Sorry pic cannot be uploaded


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## fatman17

#China sold #Pakistan a powerful tracking system in an deal that could speed up the Pakistani military’s development of multi-warhead missiles; comes two months after #India tested its most advanced nuclear-ready ICBM
https://t.co/rsxRJXWIG3


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## monitor

A telescope unit forming part of the Chinese tracking system, deployed at Pakistan's missile testing facility. Photo: South China Morning Post


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## Riz

Just wondering why cant we launch our own SLV if we have MIRV tech. @The Deterrent?


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## GumNaam

Riz said:


> Just wondering why cant we launch our own SLV if we have MIRV tech. @The Deterrent?


All in good time brother, all in good time. Patience...l


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## Sugarcane

fatman17 said:


> Although ostensibly for missile testing, it is similar to technology deployed in ballistic missile defense systems.



Can it help us in developing BMD?


----------



## Pakistani Aircraft

Riz said:


> Just wondering why cant we launch our own SLV if we have MIRV tech. @The Deterrent?



What do you want a Pakistani SLV for? Are there any corporations big enough in Pakistan that can place an order for a satellite launch on a Pakistani SLV? Would any other country place an order for a satellite launch on a Pakistan SLV? I mean, Pakistan can't even produce it's own cars, why throw money into such an expensive program that will bring little to no benefit to a very poor Pakistan at it's current economic status.

How many industrialised countries have active SLV programs?

Pakistan must be at least $400 billion economy before venturing into building SLV.


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## GumNaam

LoveIcon said:


> Can it help us in developing BMD?


Don't see why not... it tracks missiles, tested or not.


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## The Deterrent

Riz said:


> Just wondering why cant we launch our own SLV if we have MIRV tech. @The Deterrent?








@Pakistani Aircraft has summed it up quite well.

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## Riz

Pakistani Aircraft said:


> What do you want a Pakistani SLV for? Are there any corporations big enough in Pakistan that can place an order for a satellite launch on a Pakistani SLV? Would any other country place an order for a satellite launch on a Pakistan SLV? I mean, Pakistan can't even produce it's own cars, why throw money into such an expensive program that will bring little to no benefit to a very poor Pakistan at it's current economic status.
> 
> How many industrialised countries have active SLV programs?
> 
> Pakistan must be at least $400 billion economy before venturing into building SLV.


We can save Millions of dollars dude, that we use to pay china and other countries for sending our satellites, only we need to allocate reasonable funds for suparco, first successful launch can attract many private sectors to invest we can earn reasonable money from the 3rd world countries through sending there satellites at low cost....take JF-17 as example

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## Pakistani Aircraft

Riz said:


> We can save Millions of dollars dude, that we use to pay china and other countries for sending our satellites, only we need to allocate reasonable funds for suparco, first successful launch can attract many private sectors to invest we can earn reasonable money from the 3rd world countries through sending there satellites at low cost....take JF-17 as example



How many satellites has Pakistan sent on Chinese/Russian rockets so far?

How many millions do you think Pakistan will need to set up a full fledged SLV program? SUPARCO's current budget is around $28 million.

Space programs are generally very, very expensive that's why even the 27 nation block European Union ($16 trillion economy) has a joint space program.

(Pakistan can barely afford to lease a satellite every few years).


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## BHarwana

I can smell a missile test soon.


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## Safriz

BHarwana said:


> I can smell a missile test soon.


No.....

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## LeGenD

BHarwana said:


> I can smell a missile test soon.


You have some information?

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## BHarwana

LeGenD said:


> You have some information?


No just a feeling.


----------



## ghazi52

posted by some Indian twitter..


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## Safriz

ghazi52 said:


> posted by some Indian twitter..


This seems to be the launch after NOTAM was issued but no press release


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## undercover JIX

شاھین میزایل said:


> This seems to be the launch after NOTAM was issued but no press release



Bhai, Raj Phortseban bola je sab pphotoshap aur CGI hai, kiyun demagh ka dahi karta hai ...


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## Safriz

undercover JIX said:


> Bhai, Raj Phortseban bola je sab pphotoshap aur CGI hai, kiyun demagh ka dahi karta hai ...


this pic aint photoshop.

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## undercover JIX

شاھین میزایل said:


> this pic aint photoshop.



Just a general knowledge question,

Why Ababeel is in Vertical Position and erector Horizontal? if its not on the erector or launcher, Missile should not be in a storage flat horizontal position?

Forgive my ignorance, Please.

Please tell me what is that in Orange circle, Shadow of erector? why its not matching with other shadows?

May be I am seeing something different, want to learn.


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## Fawadqasim1

شاھین میزایل said:


> This seems to be the launch after NOTAM was issued but no press release


When
@The Deterrent


----------



## The Deterrent

undercover JIX said:


> Just a general knowledge question,
> 
> Why Ababeel is in Vertical Position and erector Horizontal? if its not on the erector or launcher, Missile should not be in a storage flat horizontal position?
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, Please.
> 
> Please tell me what is that in Orange circle, Shadow of erector? why its not matching with other shadows?
> 
> May be I am seeing something different, want to learn.
> 
> View attachment 492119


Once the erector erects the missile in a vertical position, the missile rests on a "pad" of sorts. Later, the erector is unhinged from the missile and lowered back in the horizontal position. See the following images for reference:

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## The Deterrent

Fawadqasim1 said:


> When
> @The Deterrent


No idea, my nose is not very sensitive.

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## undercover JIX

The Deterrent said:


> Once the erector erects the missile in a vertical position, the missile rests on a "pad" of sorts. Later, the erector is unhinged from the missile and lowered back in the horizontal position. See the following images for reference:


Thank you very much for the explanation. I have one more questions or confusion.

in the reference Pictures, looks like Launch pad is joined with the erector, but in satellite image its not. can it be separated? if yes then what is the purpose of having erector so close so close? once the missile has been erected and available to launch at will.


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## The Deterrent

undercover JIX said:


> Thank you very much for the explanation. I have one more questions or confusion.
> 
> in the reference Pictures, looks like Launch pad is joined with the erector, but in satellite image its not. can it be separated? if yes then what is the purpose of having erector so close so close? once the missile has been erected and available to launch at will.


The launch pad for test flights is separate from the erector, by design. The erector is lined up with the pad and and the missile is erected on it, afterwards the erector is towed away. The reason is obvious that a test launch can be (and has been) a hazardous activity, so risks to all related assets are minimized.

However for operational TELs (like the ones pictured above), the pad is a part of the whole erector assembly, remains attached to the TEL during the launch and is disposed off later.

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## undercover JIX

The Deterrent said:


> The launch pad for test flights is separate from the erector, by design. The erector is lined up with the pad and and the missile is erected on it, afterwards the erector is towed away. The reason is obvious that a test launch can be (and has been) a hazardous activity, so risks to all related assets are minimized.
> 
> However for operational TELs (like the ones pictured above), the pad is a part of the whole erector assembly, remains attached to the TEL during the launch and is disposed off later.


Thank you


----------



## Arsalan

شاھین میزایل said:


> No.....


Agreed!


----------



## sathya

The Deterrent said:


> The launch pad for test flights is separate from the erector, by design. The erector is lined up with the pad and and the missile is erected on it, afterwards the erector is towed away. The reason is obvious that a test launch can be (and has been) a hazardous activity, so risks to all related assets are minimized.
> 
> However for operational TELs (like the ones pictured above), the pad is a part of the whole erector assembly, remains attached to the TEL during the launch and is disposed off later.




Only Launch Pad is disposed off, TEL can be reused ?

I was having doubts how the rear wheel tyres withstand the heat ..


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## The Deterrent

sathya said:


> Only Launch Pad is disposed off, TEL can be reused ?
> 
> I was having doubts how the rear wheel tyres withstand the heat ..


Yeah. Take a look at the following image. The 'pad' is designed to deflect the exhaust away from the vehicle. Observe that curved plate at the back of the pad.

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## Fawadqasim1

We need to get iskander m technology under the table a few hundred million won't go to waste on it.

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## Fawadqasim1

The Deterrent said:


> Yeah. Take a look at the following image. The 'pad' is designed to deflect the exhaust away from the vehicle. Observe that curved plate at the back of the pad.


Sir dont you think ababeels bus needs 2M dia booster(first stage) with next generation propellant(solid fuel grain).

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## The Deterrent

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Sir dont you think ababeels bus needs 2M dia booster(first stage) with next generation propellant(solid fuel grain).


_In sab kaamon k liye pehey nai hain bhai jaan._

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## Peaceful Civilian

MadDog said:


> This one is MIRV capable tested for the first time, can carry multiple warheads & strike multiple targets. It enhances first strike capability and is difficult to be countered by any missile defence system.
> View attachment 371453


Wow, hope we increase its range little more around 3000km. Also this is better answer to counter India S400 threat.

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## Sunny4pak

*Pakistan's Ababeel Missile & MIRV Technology Explained...!*

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## POPEYE-Sailor

simple is this

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## Reichsmarschall

will we see this missile tomorrow?


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## SABRE

sathya said:


> Only Launch Pad is disposed off, TEL can be reused ?
> 
> I was having doubts how the rear wheel tyres withstand the heat ..



Generally speaking, the TEL wheels and the entire rare section are specially made with refractory materials. The tires are reusable but I think they might be taken off for repair or recycle (depending on the condition) once the vehicle returns to its station.


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## syed_yusuf

Why is ababeel range smaller than Shaheen 3 

Even though it looks bigger than Shaheen 3


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## The Accountant

syed_yusuf said:


> Why is ababeel range smaller than Shaheen 3
> 
> Even though it looks bigger than Shaheen 3


Due to more payload and hence lesser space for fuel


----------



## IceCold

The Accountant said:


> Due to more payload and hence lesser space for fuel


Also because of the efficiency of the engine. Ours are mostly juggars. @The Deterrent


----------



## GumNaam

IceCold said:


> Also because of the efficiency of the engine. Ours are mostly juggars. @The Deterrent


My friend, "juggars" are the basis of engineering innovations...


----------



## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

It has been more than 3 yrs since Ababeel's first and Only test. No new test in 3yrs since.
A missile needs atleast 3-4 tests before it is ready for induction and then another 1-2 tests to declare it Ops.


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## The Accountant

Jaskier said:


> It has been more than 3 yrs since Ababeel's first and Only test. No new test in 3yrs since.
> A missile needs atleast 3-4 tests before it is ready for induction and then another 1-2 tests to declare it Ops.


what makes u think that it was first and only test?

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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

The Accountant said:


> what makes u think that it was first and only test?


Becaus I checked each and every NOTAM issued from Pakistan and found no NOTAM fitting Ababeel.
There was one NOTAM in 2018 that looked like it could be Ababeel's but it got cancelled 24 hrs before it was meant to take effect.


----------



## The Accountant

Jaskier said:


> Becaus I checked each and every NOTAM issued from Pakistan and found no NOTAM fitting Ababeel.
> There was one NOTAM in 2018 that looked like it could be Ababeel's but it got cancelled 24 hrs before it was meant to take effect.


You are worng here on multiple occassion we tested medium range ballistic missiles specially Shaheen. Why do you think that if a NOTAM is issued, it is just for one test ?


----------



## TeesraIndiotHunter

Jaskier said:


> Becaus I checked each and every NOTAM issued from Pakistan and found no NOTAM fitting Ababeel.
> There was one NOTAM in 2018 that looked like it could be Ababeel's but it got cancelled 24 hrs before it was meant to take effect.



Well, its maybe bc Ababeel uses the tried and tested missile base of Shaheen-II/Shaheen III----with modifications in the warhead design and PBV (which can be tested without actual firing tests).

Just a hypothesis

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## KhanBaba2

The Accountant said:


> You are worng here on multiple occassion we tested medium range ballistic missiles specially Shaheen. Why do you think that if a NOTAM is issued, it is just for one test ?



Because missile tests are not secret. Everyone follows its trajectory.


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Jaskier said:


> It has been more than 3 yrs since Ababeel's first and Only test. No new test in 3yrs since.
> A missile needs atleast 3-4 tests before it is ready for induction and then another 1-2 tests to declare it Ops.


Maybe they are improving its shortcomings. Recently, Pakistan got something from China which is critical for MIRV Technology
https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/06/pakistans-chinese-multiple-tracking-system-for-ababeel-mirv/



Jaskier said:


> It has been more than 3 yrs since Ababeel's first and Only test. No new test in 3yrs since.
> A missile needs atleast 3-4 tests before it is ready for induction and then another 1-2 tests to declare it Ops.


Well maybe we will test again after India gets S400


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## The Accountant

KhanBaba2 said:


> Because missile tests are not secret. Everyone follows its trajectory.


Not everyone. Only the military surveillance asigned for that task and military top brass along with top defense officials. I am sure none of Indian of Pakistani member here has access of such surveillance data.


----------



## Chhatrapati

Jaskier said:


> It has been more than 3 yrs since Ababeel's first and Only test. No new test in 3yrs since.
> A missile needs atleast 3-4 tests before it is ready for induction and then another 1-2 tests to declare it Ops.


You mean a 1400 mile MIRV that has not shown any MIRV apart from a missile going up.

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## Cookie Monster

Chhatrapati said:


> You mean a 1400 mile MIRV that has not shown any MIRV apart from a missile going up.


Oh look we got another Raj47 here.

Pak wouldn't call it a MIRV if it wasn't a MIRV...Pak does plenty of missile tests(some conducted even after Ababeel's test) and doesn't just call them a MIRV missile if they are not MIRV. If a missile test was done for MIRV testing...then it must be for MIRV testing.

But u r welcome to live in denial...just keep repeating in ur head that "all Pak does is a paint job of Chinese weapons and Chinese weapons are junk"

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## The Accountant

Chhatrapati said:


> You mean a 1400 mile MIRV that has not shown any MIRV apart from a missile going up.


Ok u r right it is not MIRV. Infact it wasnt a missile ... but a fake video ... happy now

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## Super Falcon

Good but pak should stop these land based missiles production we need sea based nuclear triad in our subs which will increase our impact on our enemies that even after we get defeated the nukes are still there to defeat u from seas army should stop its imposment on other two forces and give equal share to other forces army is less important airforce does the major damage and navy


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## Cookie Monster

Super Falcon said:


> Good but pak should stop these land based missiles production we need sea based nuclear triad in our subs which will increase our impact on our enemies that even after we get defeated the nukes are still there to defeat u from seas army should stop its imposment on other two forces and give equal share to other forces army is less important airforce does the major damage and navy


That's a step by step process. No need to jump the gun and develop/demonstrate a MIRV ICBM first. Instead it should be done in steps...as not to draw attention...
1) MIRV(already under development)
2) A nuclear submarine(there are rumors that a mini nuclear reactor for a sub is in development)
3) ICBM
4) using the ICBM/MIRV knowledge...develop a MIRV SLBM that can hit anywhere on earth

This would give true second strike capability. All of this requires deep pockets though...so economy would have to pick up.


----------



## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

The Accountant said:


> You are worng here on multiple occassion we tested medium range ballistic missiles specially Shaheen. Why do you think that if a NOTAM is issued, it is just for one test ?


Shaheen 2 NOTAMs are excluded because they were used by the Shaheen.
Navarea 7-10 never conducts multiple tests in a single window.


----------



## SABRE

Cookie Monster said:


> That's a step by step process. No need to jump the gun and develop/demonstrate a MIRV ICBM first. Instead it should be done in steps...as not to draw attention...
> 1) MIRV(already under development)
> 2) A nuclear submarine(there are rumors that a mini nuclear reactor for a sub is in development)
> 3) ICBM
> 4) using the ICBM/MIRV knowledge...develop a MIRV SLBM that can hit anywhere on earth
> 
> This would give true second strike capability. All of this requires deep pockets though...so economy would have to pick up.



The maximum range of Pakistan's ballistic missiles has been capped at 2750km (Shaheen-III). As per former DG SPD Gen (R) Khalid Kidwai, Pakistan does not intend on exceeding this range. There is no intent for developing an ICBM, which would be an overkill for credible minimum deterrence (CMD) posture. Without launch platforms capable of launching SLBM it is difficult to state that Pakistan would invest in such a capability. At best, PN would be equipped with long-range cruise missiles.


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## Cookie Monster

SABRE said:


> The maximum range of Pakistan's ballistic missiles has been capped at 2750km (Shaheen-III). As per former DG SPD Gen (R) Khalid Kidwai, Pakistan does not intend on exceeding this range. There is no intent for developing an ICBM, which would be an overkill for credible minimum deterrence (CMD) posture. Without launch platforms capable of launching SLBM it is difficult to state that Pakistan would invest in such a capability. At best, PN would be equipped with long-range cruise missiles.


U r referring to credible minimum deterrence whereas I'm talking about a true second strike capability that is next to impossible to counter/prevent.

An ICBM would only be an overkill to launch towards India if it was land based. For an SLBM...it's different. SLCM have their own advantages but generally compared to SLBMs they have a smaller range and smaller payload. The benefit that the range of a submarine launch ICBM is that the submarine can be lurking about anywhere in the world and still be able to strike its intended target. The other advantage of an SLBM over an SLCM is more payload...meaning u can MIRV it. With multiple warheads(or potentially some decoys) it increases the chances of getting through missile defenses.

In any case rn Pak doesn't have the economy to go down such a path...but Pak can(and in some cases has been) work on some parts that can later come together to have that true second strike capability.

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## Chhatrapati

Cookie Monster said:


> Pak wouldn't call it a MIRV if it wasn't a MIRV...Pak does plenty of missile tests(some conducted even after Ababeel's test) and doesn't just call them a MIRV missile if they are not MIRV. If a missile test was done for MIRV testing...then it must be for MIRV testing.


It doesn't take much to demonstrate the capability despite being the lowest range BM with MIRV in the world and a country having no experience launching a sat. You're a country who faked Nuke test with HEU implosion warhead to look like plutonium warhead so... MIRV is too good to be true. Props to you if you did, after all, you're the only country in the world with a 100% success rate in missile tests.

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## Mrc

Chhatrapati said:


> It doesn't take much to demonstrate the capability despite being the lowest range BM with MIRV in the world and a country having no experience launching a sat. You're a country who faked Nuke test with HEU implosion warhead to look like plutonium warhead so... MIRV is too good to be true. Props to you if you did, after all, you're the only country in the world with a 100% success rate in missile tests.




And you have been making a fighter aircraft and a tank for half a century without success


Look who's talking scenario

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## Microsoft

Chhatrapati said:


> It doesn't take much to demonstrate the capability despite being the lowest range BM with MIRV in the world and a country having no experience launching a sat. You're a country who faked Nuke test with HEU implosion warhead to look like plutonium warhead so... MIRV is too good to be true. Props to you if you did, after all, you're the only country in the world with a 100% success rate in missile tests.



Is that jealously I sense?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Chhatrapati said:


> You're a country who faked Nuke test with HEU implosion warhead to look like plutonium warhead so


What? When?

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## Chhatrapati

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What? When?


By using a Linear implosion device, you didn't have the labs at the time for miniaturization of Plutonium warheads which only came later in 98 at PINSTECH.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Chhatrapati said:


> By using a Linear implosion device, you didn't have the labs at the time for miniaturization of Plutonium warheads which only came later in 98 at PINSTECH.


So we tested the real Nuke at 99 right?

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## Chhatrapati

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So we tested the real Nuke at 99 right?


In 98.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Chhatrapati said:


> In 98.


Wow.


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## Rafi

All I can divulge is that our MiRV has been tested more than once, and a friend helped with an advanced tracking system to allow us to sort out the kinks.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Rafi said:


> All I can divulge is that our MiRV has been tested more than once, and a *friend* helped with an advanced tracking system to allow us to sort out the kinks.


China. Its in news
https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/06/pakistans-chinese-multiple-tracking-system-for-ababeel-mirv/


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## Rafi

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> China. Its in news
> https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/06/pakistans-chinese-multiple-tracking-system-for-ababeel-mirv/



K


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## Cookie Monster

Chhatrapati said:


> It doesn't take much to demonstrate the capability despite being the lowest range BM with MIRV in the world and a country having no experience launching a sat. You're a country who faked Nuke test with HEU implosion warhead to look like plutonium warhead so... MIRV is too good to be true. Props to you if you did, after all, you're the only country in the world with a 100% success rate in missile tests.


Yes yes we know all about these "expert" reviews from ur side..."experts" like u r dime a dozen. Anything Pakistan develops or tests is mocked and ridiculed...but that's okay we don't mind. In the real world results matter and not some self proclaimed expert's words.

When it comes to results it is Pakistan that has not only inducted the JF17 in hundreds but has also had export success and used that jet in ops against India during Feb last year...while ur Tejas that's been in development for decades was riding around on trucks. Same goes for ur other projects like Rustom drone...all of which have crashed. Nirbhay cruise missile that still has yet to be inducted after all this time...it's laughable to see a nation which claims to have developed a hypersonic cruise missile Brahmos(Russia just gave u their P800), struggle with a subsonic cruise missile 

So u can invent all sorts of excuses if that helps...all u r doing is trying to make up for ur inadequacies. Out of sheer hatred and jealousy u just cannot accept how a nation smaller than u with fewer resources can develop things that remain on the drawing board for u. Keep at it...it's good for us...it's precisely bcuz of this underestimation that u were slapped so hard in Feb that u didn't dare to respond. U got outmatched and outplayed by a nation that according to u can't develop anything.

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## The Accountant

@mods @The Eagle need some clearance here ... indians are doing useless trolling

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## SABRE

Cookie Monster said:


> U r referring to credible minimum deterrence whereas I'm talking about a true second strike capability that is next to impossible to counter/prevent.
> 
> An ICBM would only be an overkill to launch towards India if it was land based. For an SLBM...it's different. SLCM have their own advantages but generally compared to SLBMs they have a smaller range and smaller payload. The benefit that the range of a submarine launch ICBM is that the submarine can be lurking about anywhere in the world and still be able to strike its intended target. The other advantage of an SLBM over an SLCM is more payload...meaning u can MIRV it. With multiple warheads(or potentially some decoys) it increases the chances of getting through missile defenses.
> 
> In any case rn Pak doesn't have the economy to go down such a path...but Pak can(and in some cases has been) work on some parts that can later come together to have that true second strike capability.



My dear,

This discussion will only lurk between desirable and doable, without going into what is actually happening or will happen.

MIRVed intercontinental SLBM would require larger submarines with VLS. We do not have such a boat and we cannot bet on the Chinese boats until we see what they are. The Chinese Qing-Class submarine is designed to launch SLBM but the boat is just a testbed for testing newer technologies and there is only one example of it. I doubt the Qing is on our plate.

As you pointed, our economy is sluggish, and we also need to consider if we have the capacity to develop and operate both the intercontinental-SLBM and the launch platform. Our second-strike capability is likely to be limited to SLCM. It is, however, likely that Pakistan would develop a long-range SLCM (possibly 1000km-1500km) in the future but I do not expect anything beyond that, not unless the threat environment changes drastically.


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## Cookie Monster

SABRE said:


> My dear,
> 
> This discussion will only lurk between desirable and doable, without going into what is actually happening or will happen.
> 
> MIRVed intercontinental SLBM would require larger submarines with VLS. We do not have such a boat and we cannot bet on the Chinese boats until we see what they are. The Chinese Qing-Class submarine is designed to launch SLBM but the boat is just a testbed for testing newer technologies and there is only one example of it. I doubt the Qing is on our plate.
> 
> As you pointed, our economy is sluggish, and we also need to consider if we have the capacity to develop and operate both the intercontinental-SLBM and the launch platform. Our second-strike capability is likely to be limited to SLCM. It is, however, likely that Pakistan would develop a long-range SLCM (possibly 1000km-1500km) in the future but I do not expect anything beyond that, not unless the threat environment changes drastically.


What I'm discussing is definitely not short term due to various reasons...economy being one of them...I'm basing this on a few things...

1) First is the obvious need...
...what I discussed is the only true second strike capability. Pak's subs carrying nuclear SLCM even with 1000-1500km range are not enough. First the subs can't exactly get close to the coast. IN is massive and they have a decent number of P8I for sub hunting(in addition to their navy). At best the closest Pak's subs can get is a couple hundred kilometers off the Indian coast. That easily shaves off 200-250km off of the range(the distance a nuclear tipped SLCM will have to travel over the ocean to get to a land target). So even with stacking everything in favor of Pak...as in a submarine firing a 1500km range nuclear SLCM from 200km out without getting detected...that gives the missile(in optimal conditions) a 1300km range inland...that's not nearly enough. This is under a best case scenario where we r ignoring these two other factors below...
--> a drawback for having a limited range is that it gives a somewhat of a rough range to the enemy...where they would be actively searching for Pak's subs. So if it's 450km right now(the current range of Babur SLCM) that gives IN an area of that range(450km off the coast) to hunt for Pak's subs(in the event Pak is trying to go for a second strike...as in Pak's land based first strike has been neutralized). With 1500km range SLCM...the area to search gets much bigger. However with a nuclear tipped ICBM(preferably MIRV)...that sub could be sitting anywhere in the world...outside the range of IN and their P8I. It truly becomes like finding a needle in a haystack(even that would be easier). That's when second strike CANNOT be avoided.
--> the second drawback is Indian Air Defense network. It might be able to shoot down at least some of those SLCMs. In the case of a MIRV SLBM(Intercontinental)...it would be much easier to get through air defenses. Hence a nuclear sub with submarine launched MIRV ICBMs is the only true second strike capability that will give pause to the enemy to think a thousand times before taking any aggressive action.

2) Secondly I'm basing this off of some rumors by Rafi(a well respected member who has proven credibility) that Pak is working on a miniaturized nuclear reactor(like the one that's used in nuclear submarine). Additionally Khafee has said that Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs. At this point idk if Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs from China or making them...but it seems it's probably on the cards somewhere down the line.

3) while the mini nuclear reactor is not yet confirmed...what has been confirmed is Pak's development of a MIRV missile(Ababeel). Also given Pak's long history of developing ballistic missiles, along with Chinese assistance(behind closed doors)...it wouldnt be impossible for Pak to develop an ICBM either if Pak went that route.

So based on the need of a true second strike capability...along with things that point to Pak developing certain things that would later serve as the key pieces of the puzzle...it's not far fetched to think that this might be a long term goal.

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## SABRE

Cookie Monster said:


> What I'm discussing is definitely not short term due to various reasons...economy being one of them...I'm basing this on a few things...
> 
> 1) First is the obvious need...
> ...what I discussed is the only true second strike capability. Pak's subs carrying nuclear SLCM even with 1000-1500km range are not enough. First the subs can't exactly get close to the coast. IN is massive and they have a decent number of P8I for sub hunting(in addition to their navy). At best the closest Pak's subs can get is a couple hundred kilometers off the Indian coast. That easily shaves off 200-250km off of the range(the distance a nuclear tipped SLCM will have to travel over the ocean to get to a land target). So even with stacking everything in favor of Pak...as in a submarine firing a 1500km range nuclear SLCM from 200km out without getting detected...that gives the missile(in optimal conditions) a 1300km range inland...that's not nearly enough. This is under a best case scenario where we r ignoring these two other factors below...
> --> a drawback for having a limited range is that it gives a somewhat of a rough range to the enemy...where they would be actively searching for Pak's subs. So if it's 450km right now(the current range of Babur SLCM) that gives IN an area of that range(450km off the coast) to hunt for Pak's subs(in the event Pak is trying to go for a second strike...as in Pak's land based first strike has been neutralized). With 1500km range SLCM...the area to search gets much bigger. However with a nuclear tipped ICBM(preferably MIRV)...that sub could be sitting anywhere in the world...outside the range of IN and their P8I. It truly becomes like finding a needle in a haystack(even that would be easier). That's when second strike CANNOT be avoided.
> --> the second drawback is Indian Air Defense network. It might be able to shoot down at least some of those SLCMs. In the case of a MIRV SLBM(Intercontinental)...it would be much easier to get through air defenses. Hence a nuclear sub with submarine launched MIRV ICBMs is the only true second strike capability that will give pause to the enemy to think a thousand times before taking any aggressive action.
> 
> 2) Secondly I'm basing this off of some rumors by Rafi(a well respected member who has proven credibility) that Pak is working on a miniaturized nuclear reactor(like the one that's used in nuclear submarine). Additionally Khafee has said that Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs. At this point idk if Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs from China or making them...but it seems it's probably on the cards somewhere down the line.
> 
> 3) while the mini nuclear reactor is not yet confirmed...what has been confirmed is Pak's development of a MIRV missile(Ababeel). Also given Pak's long history of developing ballistic missiles, along with Chinese assistance(behind closed doors)...it wouldnt be impossible for Pak to develop an ICBM either if Pak went that route.
> 
> So based on the need of a true second strike capability...along with things that point to Pak developing certain things that would later serve as the key pieces of the puzzle...it's not far fetched to think that this might be a long term goal.



I agree with what you are saying. Point no.1 has been my argument as well. There is too much predictability with a limited range of the delivery system (missile) and endurance of the platform (submarine). Additionally, submarine technology has come a long way where equipping SLBMs on conventional submarines equipped with AIP systems is now being considered for litoral nuclear deterrence. Whether Pakistan is pursuing such a path we cannot definitively say at the moment, but it is the right path to pursue. But we need to consider our limitations to determine what is doable and what is desirable. Given our present economic and technical capacities submarines able to launch intercontinental-SLBM (& the said SLBM itself) does not appear plausible. What we might come up with in the long run we would have to wait and see.


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## StormBreaker

Cookie Monster said:


> What I'm discussing is definitely not short term due to various reasons...economy being one of them...I'm basing this on a few things...
> 
> 1) First is the obvious need...
> ...what I discussed is the only true second strike capability. Pak's subs carrying nuclear SLCM even with 1000-1500km range are not enough. First the subs can't exactly get close to the coast. IN is massive and they have a decent number of P8I for sub hunting(in addition to their navy). At best the closest Pak's subs can get is a couple hundred kilometers off the Indian coast. That easily shaves off 200-250km off of the range(the distance a nuclear tipped SLCM will have to travel over the ocean to get to a land target). So even with stacking everything in favor of Pak...as in a submarine firing a 1500km range nuclear SLCM from 200km out without getting detected...that gives the missile(in optimal conditions) a 1300km range inland...that's not nearly enough. This is under a best case scenario where we r ignoring these two other factors below...
> --> a drawback for having a limited range is that it gives a somewhat of a rough range to the enemy...where they would be actively searching for Pak's subs. So if it's 450km right now(the current range of Babur SLCM) that gives IN an area of that range(450km off the coast) to hunt for Pak's subs(in the event Pak is trying to go for a second strike...as in Pak's land based first strike has been neutralized). With 1500km range SLCM...the area to search gets much bigger. However with a nuclear tipped ICBM(preferably MIRV)...that sub could be sitting anywhere in the world...outside the range of IN and their P8I. It truly becomes like finding a needle in a haystack(even that would be easier). That's when second strike CANNOT be avoided.
> --> the second drawback is Indian Air Defense network. It might be able to shoot down at least some of those SLCMs. In the case of a MIRV SLBM(Intercontinental)...it would be much easier to get through air defenses. Hence a nuclear sub with submarine launched MIRV ICBMs is the only true second strike capability that will give pause to the enemy to think a thousand times before taking any aggressive action.
> 
> 2) Secondly I'm basing this off of some rumors by Rafi(a well respected member who has proven credibility) that Pak is working on a miniaturized nuclear reactor(like the one that's used in nuclear submarine). Additionally Khafee has said that Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs. At this point idk if Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs from China or making them...but it seems it's probably on the cards somewhere down the line.
> 
> 3) while the mini nuclear reactor is not yet confirmed...what has been confirmed is Pak's development of a MIRV missile(Ababeel). Also given Pak's long history of developing ballistic missiles, along with Chinese assistance(behind closed doors)...it wouldnt be impossible for Pak to develop an ICBM either if Pak went that route.
> 
> So based on the need of a true second strike capability...along with things that point to Pak developing certain things that would later serve as the key pieces of the puzzle...it's not far fetched to think that this might be a long term goal.


Very well written, hats off


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## Safriz

Cookie Monster said:


> What I'm discussing is definitely not short term due to various reasons...economy being one of them...I'm basing this on a few things...
> 
> 1) First is the obvious need...
> ...what I discussed is the only true second strike capability. Pak's subs carrying nuclear SLCM even with 1000-1500km range are not enough. First the subs can't exactly get close to the coast. IN is massive and they have a decent number of P8I for sub hunting(in addition to their navy). At best the closest Pak's subs can get is a couple hundred kilometers off the Indian coast. That easily shaves off 200-250km off of the range(the distance a nuclear tipped SLCM will have to travel over the ocean to get to a land target). So even with stacking everything in favor of Pak...as in a submarine firing a 1500km range nuclear SLCM from 200km out without getting detected...that gives the missile(in optimal conditions) a 1300km range inland...that's not nearly enough. This is under a best case scenario where we r ignoring these two other factors below...
> --> a drawback for having a limited range is that it gives a somewhat of a rough range to the enemy...where they would be actively searching for Pak's subs. So if it's 450km right now(the current range of Babur SLCM) that gives IN an area of that range(450km off the coast) to hunt for Pak's subs(in the event Pak is trying to go for a second strike...as in Pak's land based first strike has been neutralized). With 1500km range SLCM...the area to search gets much bigger. However with a nuclear tipped ICBM(preferably MIRV)...that sub could be sitting anywhere in the world...outside the range of IN and their P8I. It truly becomes like finding a needle in a haystack(even that would be easier). That's when second strike CANNOT be avoided.
> --> the second drawback is Indian Air Defense network. It might be able to shoot down at least some of those SLCMs. In the case of a MIRV SLBM(Intercontinental)...it would be much easier to get through air defenses. Hence a nuclear sub with submarine launched MIRV ICBMs is the only true second strike capability that will give pause to the enemy to think a thousand times before taking any aggressive action.
> 
> 2) Secondly I'm basing this off of some rumors by Rafi(a well respected member who has proven credibility) that Pak is working on a miniaturized nuclear reactor(like the one that's used in nuclear submarine). Additionally Khafee has said that Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs. At this point idk if Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs from China or making them...but it seems it's probably on the cards somewhere down the line.
> 
> 3) while the mini nuclear reactor is not yet confirmed...what has been confirmed is Pak's development of a MIRV missile(Ababeel). Also given Pak's long history of developing ballistic missiles, along with Chinese assistance(behind closed doors)...it wouldnt be impossible for Pak to develop an ICBM either if Pak went that route.
> 
> So based on the need of a true second strike capability...along with things that point to Pak developing certain things that would later serve as the key pieces of the puzzle...it's not far fetched to think that this might be a long term goal.


You do realise that Pakistan never tells exact range of their missiles and they highlight this be stating different ranges of the same missile after each test.

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## Cookie Monster

Safriz said:


> You do realise that Pakistan never tells exact range of their missiles and they highlight this be stating different ranges of the same missile after each test.


It's not about that...even if Pak's SLCM have ranges greater than stated...still true second strike capability comes with SLBMs(in nuclear powered subs). Once Pak has that...a retaliatory nuclear strike is GUARANTEED on the adversary. There are NO STEPS that can be taken(like neutralizing land based nukes) to avoid getting hit by nukes. I'm sure it's not lost on anyone in Pak military leadership the importance of MIRV SLBM(along with a boomer)...the only hindrance is the economy right now.

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## Blacklight

Cookie Monster said:


> What I'm discussing is definitely not short term due to various reasons...economy being one of them...I'm basing this on a few things...
> 
> 1) First is the obvious need...
> ...what I discussed is the only true second strike capability. Pak's subs carrying nuclear SLCM even with 1000-1500km range are not enough. First the subs can't exactly get close to the coast. IN is massive and they have a decent number of P8I for sub hunting(in addition to their navy). At best the closest Pak's subs can get is a couple hundred kilometers off the Indian coast. That easily shaves off 200-250km off of the range(the distance a nuclear tipped SLCM will have to travel over the ocean to get to a land target). So even with stacking everything in favor of Pak...as in a submarine firing a 1500km range nuclear SLCM from 200km out without getting detected...that gives the missile(in optimal conditions) a 1300km range inland...that's not nearly enough. This is under a best case scenario where we r ignoring these two other factors below...
> --> a drawback for having a limited range is that it gives a somewhat of a rough range to the enemy...where they would be actively searching for Pak's subs. So if it's 450km right now(the current range of Babur SLCM) that gives IN an area of that range(450km off the coast) to hunt for Pak's subs(in the event Pak is trying to go for a second strike...as in Pak's land based first strike has been neutralized). With 1500km range SLCM...the area to search gets much bigger. However with a nuclear tipped ICBM(preferably MIRV)...that sub could be sitting anywhere in the world...outside the range of IN and their P8I. It truly becomes like finding a needle in a haystack(even that would be easier). That's when second strike CANNOT be avoided.
> --> the second drawback is Indian Air Defense network. It might be able to shoot down at least some of those SLCMs. In the case of a MIRV SLBM(Intercontinental)...it would be much easier to get through air defenses. Hence a nuclear sub with submarine launched MIRV ICBMs is the only true second strike capability that will give pause to the enemy to think a thousand times before taking any aggressive action.
> 
> 2) Secondly I'm basing this off of some rumors by Rafi(a well respected member who has proven credibility) that Pak is working on a miniaturized nuclear reactor(like the one that's used in nuclear submarine). Additionally Khafee has said that Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs. At this point idk if Pak will be acquiring nuclear subs from China or making them...but it seems it's probably on the cards somewhere down the line.
> 
> 3) while the mini nuclear reactor is not yet confirmed...what has been confirmed is Pak's development of a MIRV missile(Ababeel). Also given Pak's long history of developing ballistic missiles, along with Chinese assistance(behind closed doors)...it wouldnt be impossible for Pak to develop an ICBM either if Pak went that route.
> 
> So based on the need of a true second strike capability...along with things that point to Pak developing certain things that would later serve as the key pieces of the puzzle...it's not far fetched to think that this might be a long term goal.


*Hypothetical Scenario.*

I gift you a smart phone, and the battery lasts you an avg of 12hrs. You throw out that battery and install yours, now your phone lasts 24hrs, and it is now indigenous. 

Funny world we live in.

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## Safriz

Cookie Monster said:


> It's not about that...even if Pak's SLCM have ranges greater than stated...still true second strike capability comes with SLBMs(in nuclear powered subs). Once Pak has that...a retaliatory nuclear strike is GUARANTEED on the adversary. There are NO STEPS that can be taken(like neutralizing land based nukes) to avoid getting hit by nukes. I'm sure it's not lost on anyone in Pak military leadership the importance of MIRV SLBM(along with a boomer)...the only hindrance is the economy right now.


Pakistani second strike is land based.
Sea based nuclear capability is an added extra.
India doesn't have enough nuclear weapons to scorch entire Pakistan and neither has Pakistan .
At best or worst , both countries can target a few large cities of each other and kill a few millions.

Sea based second strike was a must have between USSR and USA because both had gigatons of nukes and could turn each other into wastelands of burning charcoal.
In Pakistan india scenario both don't need sea based deterrent for each other.
In fact Pakistan is already at an advantage because of highly mobile nukes.
Which are very hard to track and neutralise

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## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> *Hypothetical Scenario.*
> 
> I gift you a smart phone, and the battery lasts you an avg of 12hrs. You throw out that battery and install yours, now your phone lasts 24hrs, and it is now indigenous.
> 
> Funny world we live in.


How can one fill 2 litre in a max 1 litre bottle ?


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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> *Hypothetical Scenario.*
> 
> I gift you a smart phone, and the battery lasts you an avg of 12hrs. You throw out that battery and install yours, now your phone lasts 24hrs, and it is now indigenous.
> 
> Funny world we live in.



Ummm, are you saying the way to deal with MTCR ? Or am I wrong?

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## StormBreaker

Caprxl said:


> Ummm, are you saying the way to deal with MTCR ? Or am I wrong?


Why ask when you already know it

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## Caprxl

StormBreaker said:


> Why ask when you already know it



Aise, Dil kar raha tha

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## Blacklight

Caprxl said:


> Ummm, are you saying the way to deal with MTCR ? Or am I wrong?


No No, I was just explaining when one goes form NiCad to Li-ion.

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## StormBreaker

Caprxl said:


> Aise, Dil kar raha tha


Still pissed off for 2020 march parade, I thought Ababeel might have appeared this time.

Allah ki marzi

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## Caprxl

StormBreaker said:


> Still pissed off for 2020 march parade, I thought Ababeel might have appeared this time.
> 
> Allah ki marzi



Only Operational Weapon Systems are displayed if am correct, so i think Ababeel will go for further testing & improvements for a more refined product until it meets the demand of the operators.



Blacklight said:


> No No, I was just explaining when one goes form NiCad to Li-ion.



The message has been received & well understood

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## Safriz

StormBreaker said:


> Still pissed off for 2020 march parade, I thought Ababeel might have appeared this time.
> 
> Allah ki marzi


Same here.
Had high hopes and was waiting anxiously.

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## HRK

StormBreaker said:


> Still pissed off for 2020 march parade, I thought Ababeel might have appeared this time.
> 
> Allah ki marzi


Ababeel was sabotages by US operator related to the program .... it will take some time to come back on the track .....

remember few years back there was a news of arrest of some high ranking person from one of the sensitive organization .....???

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## maverick1977

Ababeel saved the day on Feb 28th evening, when pakistan got the news of india was ready to launch missiles on pakistan airbases and pakistan told US that MIRVs are ready along with CMs. rest assure, Ababeel is operational

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## Cookie Monster

Safriz said:


> Pakistani second strike is land based.
> Sea based nuclear capability is an added extra.
> India doesn't have enough nuclear weapons to scorch entire Pakistan and neither has Pakistan .
> At best or worst , both countries can target a few large cities of each other and kill a few millions.
> 
> Sea based second strike was a must have between USSR and USA because both had gigatons of nukes and could turn each other into wastelands of burning charcoal.
> In Pakistan india scenario both don't need sea based deterrent for each other.
> In fact Pakistan is already at an advantage because of highly mobile nukes.
> Which are very hard to track and neutralise


_*the following is in context of a full scale war between India/Pak to the point where nukes are being considered*_

Despite the fact that Pak has mobile nukes...and India doesn't have enough nukes to scorch entire Pak...
...the potential possibility of trying to neutralize Pak's first strike capability remains. Whether or not such scenarios are realistic...or could yield a desirable outcome...is not the question.

What's in question is the *"thought"*...in Indian calculus...if they think there's even a remote chance to completely destroy or even partially destroy Pak's land based first strike capability...drastically reducing the amount of missiles(nuclear tipped) Pak can launch at India...they WILL go for it. The alternative case of inaction means nuked cities on their end. Hence they will take whatever action necessary(even if it only works in theory and yields zero results) to try to destroy Pak's land based nukes.

It is therefore important to address this "thought" that exists. It should be eliminated entirely and with a nuclear sub along with nuclear tipped MIRV SLBMs...this "thought" would cease to exist. The enemy needs to be convinced that there is NO such scenario where they can walk away without a cost. That's the very purpose of MIRV SLBM(boomers). With that capability in Pak's hands...it doesn't matter what India purchases(Rafales, S400, future more high tech acquisitions, etc.) and in how much quantity...they will KNOW for sure that any DEFINITIVE full scale war with Pak will cost them dearly. No hypotheticals, no strategies, and no air defenses can change the outcome significantly enough where they can hope to have a win. Any such definitive war would mean both countries would lose.

Now to consider the financial costs...yes indeed Pak is in no position to afford that at the moment. However Pak can definitely try to piecemeal it. So for example right now Pak's current missiles can benefit from MIRV(especially considering India's stepped up efforts of missile defenses)...hence Pak has Ababeel in development.

Pak can also work on an ICBM(not publicly) without exorbitant costs involved...mainly bcuz it's not like Pak will be working on it from scratch. Pak has a long history of developing ballistic missiles...and the step up to ICBM would be the next sequential goal built atop prior research and experience.

As for nuclear reactor to power a nuclear sub...as per rumors that is ongoing. However even if it is not...it could be worked on with Chinese assistance.

These three things can be worked on now in present conditions(economically and technologically). Further steps can be taken afterwards...while simultaneously improving the economy. Then in perhaps 20 years time...Pak can consider actively building such a capability(as discussed above).


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## Caprxl

HRK said:


> Ababeel was sabotages by US operator related to the program .... it will take some time to come back on the track .....
> 
> remember few years back there was a news of arrest of some high ranking person from one of the sensitive organization .....???



_Doctor Wasim Akram (Employed at Sensitive Organisation)
_
This or are you talking about someone else?

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## HRK

Caprxl said:


> _Doctor Wasim Akram (Employed at Sensitive Organisation)
> _
> This or are you talking about someone else?


yaap I think one of the culprits ....

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## Safriz

HRK said:


> Ababeel was sabotages by US operator related to the program .... it will take some time to come back on the track .....
> 
> remember few years back there was a news of arrest of some high ranking person from one of the sensitive organization .....???


Well there's no rush anyway. The existing missile capabilities of Pakistan are enough already .
However the sooner they can revive ababeel program the better.

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## StormBreaker

HRK said:


> Ababeel was sabotages by US operator related to the program .... it will take some time to come back on the track .....
> 
> remember few years back there was a news of arrest of some high ranking person from one of the sensitive organization .....???


That is something new to me

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## Caprxl

HRK said:


> yaap I think one of the culprits ....



Hmmm, well we never got confirmation IF he was hanged or still alive, along him were Lieutenant General & a Brigadier Raja Rizwan.

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## Safriz

Caprxl said:


> Hmmm, well we never got confirmation IF he was hanged or still alive, along him were Lieutenant General & a Brigadier Raja Rizwan.


The Brigadier was hanged. It was in the news.
The Lt general was imprisoned for 14 years.
Don't know about the civilian. He was sentenced, but hanged or not is unknown.

When the original test was done in 2017. Me and @JamD jointly did some size calculations on this thread
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/abab...s-mirv-technology.474136/page-55#post-9139060

Later I matched those dimensions with largest TEL Pakistan has, the one carrying Shaheen-3 ,and here is how an Ababeel mounted on that TEL will look like 









HRK said:


> Ababeel was sabotages by US operator related to the program .... it will take some time to come back on the track .....
> 
> remember few years back there was a news of arrest of some high ranking person from one of the sensitive organization .....???


The other possibility is that a new rocket is being developed for Ababeel?
The original test borrowed Shaheen-3 first and second stage and Ababeels third stage and warhead assembly was mounted on that.

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## JamD

Safriz said:


> The Brigadier was hanged. It was in the news.
> The Lt general was imprisoned for 14 years.
> Don't know about the civilian. He was sentenced, but hanged or not is unknown.
> 
> When the original test was done in 2017. Me and @JamD jointly did some size calculations on this thread
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/abab...s-mirv-technology.474136/page-55#post-9139060
> 
> Later I matched those dimensions with largest TEL Pakistan has, the one carrying Shaheen-3 ,and here is how an Ababeel mounted on that TEL will look like
> 
> View attachment 634594
> 
> 
> 
> The other possibility is that a new rocket is being developed for Ababeel?
> The original test borrowed Shaheen-3 first and second stage and Ababeels third stage and warhead assembly was mounted on that.


It's funny you should say that. I've thought about this too. Disclaimer: what follows is completely wild speculation.

Ababeel is best viewed as a technology demonstrator for the MIRV bus/third stage and not a new system (at least not yet). As you pointed out it used S3 as its base. S2 and S3 have the same (or very similar) diameter motors. As we can see in the Ababeel this leads to an awkward phallic looking missile which cant be great for aerodynamics or storage/carriage. I strongly suspect that a newer, larger diameter rocket motor is being worked upon for the Ababeel. Wide enough so that the MIRV bus sits flush. This will probably mean a reduction in length. As a larger diameter solid rocket comes with a host of challenges I think it will be some time before we see the next iteration of the Ababeel. If the Ababeel ends up being wider I can quote this post to claim calling it first lol.

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## Safriz

JamD said:


> It's funny you should say that. I've thought about this too. Disclaimer: what follows is completely wild speculation.
> 
> Ababeel is best viewed as a technology demonstrator for the MIRV bus/third stage and not a new system (at least not yet). As you pointed out it used S3 as its base. S2 and S3 have the same (or very similar) diameter motors. As we can see in the Ababeel this leads to an awkward phallic looking missile which cant be great for aerodynamics or storage/carriage. I strongly suspect that a newer, larger diameter rocket motor is being worked upon for the Ababeel. Wide enough so that the MIRV bus sits flush. This will probably mean a reduction in length. As a larger diameter solid rocket comes with a host of challenges I think it will be some time before we see the next iteration of the Ababeel. If the Ababeel ends up being wider I can quote this post to claim calling it first lol.





JamD said:


> It's funny you should say that. I've thought about this too. Disclaimer: what follows is completely wild speculation.
> 
> Ababeel is best viewed as a technology demonstrator for the MIRV bus/third stage and not a new system (at least not yet). As you pointed out it used S3 as its base. S2 and S3 have the same (or very similar) diameter motors. As we can see in the Ababeel this leads to an awkward phallic looking missile which cant be great for aerodynamics or storage/carriage. I strongly suspect that a newer, larger diameter rocket motor is being worked upon for the Ababeel. Wide enough so that the MIRV bus sits flush. This will probably mean a reduction in length. As a larger diameter solid rocket comes with a host of challenges I think it will be some time before we see the next iteration of the Ababeel. If the Ababeel ends up being wider I can quote this post to claim calling it first lol.


Yes, you can claim to be the Missile Nostradamus when the new version of Ababeel is revealed 

On a serious note, the original version of the missile is more than 20 meters long. About the same length as Agni-4 with 4000 Km range or 2 meters shorter than Topol-M with stupid thousand Kilometers range. But the due to using Shaheen-3 stage 1 and 2 the missile is very thin for its length at about 1.6 meters wide on stage 1 and 2 and then 1.8 meters warhead assembly.
This arrangement may be fine for Silo or the slow moving TEL Agni-V uses, but not for the highly mobile fast TEL Pakistan uses. Because such thin and top heavy structure may not have much integrity.
Ideally the missile should be shorter by at least 2 meters , to a length of 18 meters, and the entire missile should be of same diameter or 1.8 meters.
Currently Pakistan doesn't have such rocket motor and a new one may well be under development.
The odd shape of Ababeel also took a toll on the missile's speed , and its much slower than S-3 in the boost phase, which is not good due to the Indian ABM threat.

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## TsAr

HRK said:


> yaap I think one of the culprits ....


the chap was head of design and one of the 1st PHD qualifier from USA working in that organization....he was hanged...

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## Rafi

MIRVs a technology breakthrough.

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## Fawadqasim1

We need something like this for our mirv
Bus


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> We need something like this for our mirv
> Bus
> View attachment 635302


we don't need an ICBM bro

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## PakFactor

IAU said:


> we don't need an ICBM bro



We do need it, we need to look beyond the Eastern Border and have capability to target any nation which threatens us.

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## Ultima Thule

PakFactor said:


> We do need it, we need to look beyond the Eastern Border and have capability to target any nation which threatens us.


No, if we will then get ready for extreme sanctions like North Korea/Iran have


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## arjunk

The time to test an ICBM is when we are faced with a valid threat. With Shaheen 3 the range was increased to such a specific amount one can't help but think uncle sam is watching the missile program closely, since shaheen 3 could hit israel from west balochistan but Pakistan had to emphasise it was to strike India. Similarly Musharraf terminated the Ghauri-3 program (iirc) because it would bring Israel into striking range. I can't imagine the American's reaction if Pakistan increases the range without any valid reason. Increasing the range would also bring Chinese and European cities into range which will not be good for diplomacy and the economy.

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## Caprxl

TsAr said:


> the chap was head of design and one of the 1st PHD qualifier from USA working in that organization....he was hanged...



Thanks for d confirmation


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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> we don't need an ICBM bro


I was just talking about the dimensions e.g the diameter mobility etc if we put The load 
Of an mirv bus with penaids on this one it will end up in the range of an I.r.b.m.

We need heavy lifters not for range but for 
1) higher apogee 2) higher speed to evade abms 3) to lift heavy mirv bus with lots of penaids so

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## Ultima Thule

arjunk said:


> The time to test an ICBM is when we are faced with a valid threat. With Shaheen 3 the range was increased to such a specific amount one can't help but think uncle sam is watching the missile program closely, since shaheen 3 could hit israel from west balochistan but Pakistan had to emphasise it was to strike India. Similarly Musharraf terminated the Ghauri-3 program (iirc) because it would bring Israel into striking range. I can't imagine the American's reaction if Pakistan increases the range without any valid reason. Increasing the range would also bring Chinese and European cities into range which will not be good for diplomacy and the economy.


Main reason for cancelling ghauri-3 not that you stated but main reason for cancelling ghauri 3 was liquid based system and takes hours to fuel and launch hence it easy target for the enemy preemptive strike (India)



Fawadqasim1 said:


> I was just talking about the dimensions e.g the diameter mobility etc if we put The load
> Of an mirv bus with penaids on this one it will end up in the range of an I.r.b.m.
> 
> We need heavy lifters not for range but for
> 1) higher apogee 2) higher speed to evade abms 3) to lift heavy mirv bus with lots of penaids so


We can use MIRV with maneuverable warheads and does we need IRBM also???


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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> Main reason for cancelling ghauri-3 not that you stated but main reason for cancelling ghauri 3 was liquid based system and takes hours to fuel and launch hence it easy target for the enemy preemptive strike (India)
> 
> 
> We can use MIRV with maneuverable warheads and does we need IRBM also???


If you want a sizable and survivable bus yes
It will give us 1) higher apogee 2) higher speed to evade abms 3) to lift heavy mirv bus with lots of penaids 4) shoot and scoot( mobility)
capability. We will need all of the above if India buys thaad missiles. And they will

and then there is a small problem of us ages system with sm -3 missiles in arabian sea so I hope you understand what I am contemplating.

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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> If you want a sizable and survivable bus yes
> It will give us 1) higher apogee 2) higher speed to evade abms 3) to lift heavy mirv bus with lots of penaids 4) shoot and scoot( mobility)
> capability. We will need all of the above if India buys thaad missiles. And they will
> 
> and then there is a small problem of us ages system with sm -3 missiles in arabian sea so I hope you understand what I am contemplating.


Speed doesn't guarantee to hit the target trajectory is predictable 
And tell me India buying THAAD they are buying s400 from Russia done deal and Israel using arrow-3 MANEUVERABLE warheads will have more chance to hit the target because of unpredictable trajectories


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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> Speed doesn't guarantee to hit the target trajectory is predictable
> And tell me India buying THAAD they are buying s400 from Russia done deal and Israel using arrow-3 MANEUVERABLE warheads will have more chance to hit the target because of unpredictable trajectories


It's not just speed and we don't have marvs for our mrbms at this point in time.


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> It's not just speed and we don't have marvs for our mrbms at this point in time.


remember Shaheen 1A bro it said to be have some kind of anti abm tech on it, most probably boost glide vehicle


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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> remember Shaheen 1A bro it said to be have some kind of anti abm tech on it, most probably boost glide vehicle


Good enough for now but not for the future.


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## The Accountant

IAU said:


> remember Shaheen 1A bro it said to be have some kind of anti abm tech on it, most probably boost glide vehicle


its not boost glide vehicle. How could a 1,000 km missile could have glide capability? Do you even know what a boost glide vehicle is?

Shaheen 1A has a maneuvering warhead hence it is difficult to predict its actual target by the ABM systems.

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## 313ghazi

IAU said:


> we don't need an ICBM bro


We do, but not before we have a stable thriving independent economy and a self sufficient defence industry. 

No point having a sword if you don't have the strength to swing it.

I think before ICBM we should work on ramjet tech, and SLV's. That way we do a lot of the ground work, without the political baggage that comes with an ICBM.

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## Fawadqasim1

BGV mirv Marv all the three have their own advantages and disadvantages we must develop all of them as nuclear strike capable country I am not saying we should do it today but by 2030s we must have all the three if we want to maintain MAD with India and it's allies.

And for that we will need 2m dia or + heavy lifters


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## Armchair

Pak should try to replicate the Agile method of SpaceX and attempt to see how they can commercialize their strategic tech. SLV for commercial launches. Small nuclear reactors for niche market of nuclear power plants. A 50 seat regional turboprop. A ww2 style simple jeep as an export vehicle. 
If Pak can succeed exporting such systems, or even tries (and fails a hundred times before succeeding once), Pakistan would develop a viable export that isn't selling cheap garments for Walmart.


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## Fawadqasim1

Armchair said:


> Pak should try to replicate the Agile method of SpaceX and attempt to see how they can commercialize their strategic tech. SLV for commercial launches. Small nuclear reactors for niche market of nuclear power plants. A 50 seat regional turboprop. A ww2 style simple jeep as an export vehicle.
> If Pak can succeed exporting such systems, or even tries (and fails a hundred times before succeeding once), Pakistan would develop a viable export that isn't selling cheap garments for Walmart.


Bro we should prioritize our meager resources and not waste them on products Which we can't sell in a highly competitive market the things we are talking of has nothing to do with marketing and economy its about our survival economy and market comes afterwards/ second

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## Armchair

when organizations are incompetent and salary receiving programs that shuns and suppresses talent, then yes, you can't compete. When you want to be better, you try. But for that you need a better mindset which isn't demonstrated here.

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## Fawadqasim1

Armchair said:


> when organizations are incompetent and salary receiving programs that shuns and suppresses talent, then yes, you can't compete. When you want to be better, you try. But for that you need a better mindset which isn't demonstrated here.


Interesting as it is bro organizations and their incompetence marketing and economy begs a different thread this thread is regarding our mirv and similar programmes so


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## The Accountant

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Bro we should prioritize our meager resources and not waste them on products Which we can't sell in a highly competitive market the things we are talking of has nothing to do with marketing and economy its about our survival economy and market comes afterwards/ second


His idea is correct. If you launch commercial product they will absorb half of the overhead of defense product hence more budget for defense purchases.

So its not waste of resources but efficient utilization


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## Fawadqasim1

The Accountant said:


> His idea is correct. If you launch commercial product they will absorb half of the overhead of defense product hence more budget for defense purchases.
> 
> So its not waste of resources but efficient utilization


 It requires economies of scale too you are right but it will take time and btw it's happening too it's at our own scale not satisfactory but it is which is quite small at this time and we are surely derailing this thread

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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Good enough for now but not for the future.


Why isn't good for future BOOST GLIDE VEHICLES has same capabilities as NEW Anti ABM tech LIKE MANEUVERABLE WARHEAD (UNPREDICTABLE TRAJECTORIES)



The Accountant said:


> its not boost glide vehicle. How could a 1,000 km missile could have glide capability? Do you even know what a boost glide vehicle is?
> 
> Shaheen 1A has a maneuvering warhead hence it is difficult to predict its actual target by the ABM systems.


Yes i know it very well its a old tech


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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> Why isn't good for future BOOST GLIDE VEHICLES has same capabilities as NEW Anti ABM tech LIKE MANEUVERABLE WARHEAD (UNPREDICTABLE TRAJECTORIES)
> 
> 
> Yes i know it very well its a old tech


Seriously we don't have BGV


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## Ultima Thule

The Accountant said:


> its not boost glide vehicle. How could a 1,000 km missile could have glide capability? Do you even know what a boost glide vehicle is?


And any BMs that able to reach orbit or suborbital trajectory can have boost glide vehicle with a exceptions of battlefield BMs



Fawadqasim1 said:


> Seriously we don't have BGV


And what your source???



Fawadqasim1 said:


> Seriously we don't have BGV


Its a old and easiest ANTI ABM tech to be utilized by any country that have BMs


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## Fawadqasim1

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Seriously





IAU said:


> And any BMs that able to reach orbit or suborbital trajectory can have boost glide vehicle with a exceptions of battlefield BMs
> 
> 
> And what your source???





IAU said:


> And any BMs that able to reach orbit or suborbital trajectory can have boost glide vehicle with a exceptions of battlefield BMs
> 
> 
> And what your source???


And what is your source it's a cutting edge technology still underdevelopment in top 2 3 countries.


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> And what is your source it's a cutting edge technology still underdevelopment in top 2 3 countries.


Do know what is BGV bro??z


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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> Do know what is BGV bro??z


This is a Good example of a modern HGV
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-ZF
The one you are talking about is outdated technology and for a reason because modern
Abms like thaad looks like an mlrs for a reason so

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## The Accountant

IAU said:


> And any BMs that able to reach orbit or suborbital trajectory can have boost glide vehicle with a exceptions of battlefield BMs
> 
> 
> And what your source???
> 
> 
> Its a old and easiest ANTI ABM tech to be utilized by any country that have BMs



For Boast glide vehicle you need a sustained lift for making the trajectory linear or upward. Kindly show my wings of Shaheen 1A?

By the way you are the one who are claiming that Pakistan has deployed boast glide vehicle even before USA and China so its you who has to give the proof.

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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> This is a Good example of a modern HGV
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-ZF
> The one you are talking about is outdated technology and for a reason because modern
> Abms like thaad looks like an mlrs for a reason so


How outdated tell me please


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## Safriz

Not HGV but there are other systems in use to increase survivability of warhead assembly.

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## Ultima Thule

The Accountant said:


> For Boast glide vehicle you need a sustained lift for making the trajectory linear or upward. Kindly show my wings of Shaheen 1A?


Not like that boost glide vehicle use skipping the warhead with upper atmosphere and back to the orbit


The Accountant said:


> By the way you are the one who are claiming that Pakistan has deployed boast glide vehicle even before USA and China so its you who has to give the proof.


When i said that you assumed by yourself its 60s tech developed by USA/Russia and shaheen 1A is developed by Pakistan in early 2000



Fawadqasim1 said:


> This is a Good example of a modern HGV
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-ZF
> The one you are talking about is outdated technology and for a reason because modern
> Abms like thaad looks like an mlrs for a reason so


And HGV means we have to master in retro rocket or viener rocket tech (miniaturized rocket) if not scramjet or RAMJET tech


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## Fawadqasim1

Safriz said:


> Not HGV but there are other systems in use to increase survivability of warhead assembly.


Yes but introduction of systems like thaad and s500 will reduce their survivability we are talking about the future 2030s


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## Safriz

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Yes but introduction of systems like thaad and s500 will reduce their survivability we are talking about the future 2030s


Bhayya pehlay S-400 tou aanay Dou India Kay pass. Abhi Woh nahi Aaya aur tum S-500 koi fiksr Ker rahay Hou

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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> Not like that boost glide vehicle use skipping the warhead with upper atmosphere and back to the orbit
> 
> When i said that you assumed by yourself its 60s tech developed by USA/Russia and shaheen 1A is developed by Pakistan in early 2000
> 
> 
> And HGV means we have to master in retro rocket or viener rocket tech (miniaturized rocket) if not scramjet or RAMJET tech


You are pakistanipower arn't you I have a good song for you


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> You are pakistanipower arn't you I have a good song for you


yes, and i don't like songs, and stick to the topic please, and tell me how boost glide tech is outdated @Fawadqasim1


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## Fawadqasim1

Safriz said:


> Bhayya pehlay S-400 tou aanay Dou India Kay pass. Abhi Woh nahi Aaya aur tum S-500 koi fiksr Ker rahay Hou


Yes absolutely India will have thaad or its analog by late 2020s or early 2030s and we will have to work for it from today slowly i.e not to hurt Our economy but surely, Israel already has it and we shouldn't underestimate Barak 8 and s400's capability against our srbms prepare for the worst hope for the best.


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Yes absolutely India will have thaad or its analog by late 2020s or early 2030s and we will have to work for it from today slowly i.e not to hurt Our economy but surely, Israel already has it and we shouldn't underestimate Barak 8 and s400's capability against our srbms prepare for the worst hope for the best.


Oh bhai their will be no THAAD for India



Fawadqasim1 said:


> Yes absolutely India will have thaad or its analog by late 2020s or early 2030s and we will have to work for it from today slowly i.e not to hurt Our economy but surely, Israel already has it and we shouldn't underestimate Barak 8 and s400's capability against our srbms prepare for the worst hope for the best.


And why you thinks that our BMs not equipped with decoys/penetration aids but only warheads


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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> Oh bhai their will be no THAAD for India
> 
> 
> And why you thinks that our BMs not equipped with decoys/penetration aids but only warheads


I know one song just one please

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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> I know one song just one please


is this relates to topic, i want no song, you thinks you know all thinks about our military, why you're so pessimistic???


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## Fawadqasim1

IAU said:


> is this relates to topic, i want no song, you thinks you know all thinks about our military, why you're so pessimistic???


Sirf aik hik yaw itnay dino baad Tau haath
Aye ho bhaee aysay kaysay janay doon.


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## Ultima Thule

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Sirf aik hik yaw itnay dino baad Tau haath
> Aye ho bhaee aysay kaysay janay doon.


Does your this useless post related to discussion????


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## vizier

Instead of 3 warheads a small single warhead can increase the range of Ababeel missile. This way you can remain India centric but at the same time have capability to target more range if situation arises. You have experience in smaller warheads like Nasr missile. You already have Shaheen missile for longer ranges. Maybe new versions of Ababeel with more fuel and more payload capability would boost the range much higher with less warheads if situation arises for deterrance against smaller but valuable targets further than its official range.


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## HRK

vizier said:


> Instead of 3 warheads a small single warhead can increase the range of Ababeel missile.


We have the capability to cover whole of India with single warhead missiles .....

MIRV is is being worked for specific needs related to India's developing Anti Ballistic Missile Capabilities, as per open source informations good thing is they are still behind the schedule and their capability would take some time to become operational.

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## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> Anti Ballistic Missile Capabilities


Does S400 and NASAM II count in Indian ABM Capability?


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## kris

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Does S400 and NASAM II count in Indian ABM Capability?


To a limited extent

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## HRK

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Does S400 and NASAM II count in Indian ABM Capability?


S-400 have limited ABM capability
NASAMS don't have ABM capability but useful against cruise missiles ....

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## Aryeih Leib

4 yrs passed nothing new about this missile .

Project cancelled?

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## Khanate

Aryeih Leib said:


> 4 yrs passed nothing new about this missile .
> 
> Project cancelled?



You wish.


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## Areesh

Aryeih Leib said:


> 4 yrs passed nothing new about this missile .
> 
> Project cancelled?



Lol


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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> Lol


That is actually the right question. Because after we punished three people for treason the rumor is our Ababeel project was compromised. So it's legitimate question and concern to have.

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## Reichsmarschall

Zarvan said:


> That is actually the right question. Because after we punished three people for treason the rumor is our Ababeel project was compromised. So it's legitimate question and concern to have.


Comprised in what sense?


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## Kingslayerr

Zarvan said:


> That is actually the right question. Because after we punished three people for treason the rumor is our Ababeel project was compromised. So it's legitimate question and concern to have.


Than there probably will be some changes made to the program but it won't get cancelled. MIRV is the way forward.


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## Zarvan

Reichsmarschall said:


> Comprised in what sense?


All the details and blue prints and all what your enemy should not get were given to CIA by those traitors. I don't even know if that is true or not but that is rumor. And it's getting more stronger as each year passes without any test.

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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> All the details and blue prints and all what your enemy should not get were given to CIA by those traitors. I don't even know if that is true or not but that is rumor. And it's getting more stronger as each year passes without any test.


Reminds me Raymond Devic who was spying Babur missile


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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> That is actually the right question. Because after we punished three people for treason the rumor is our Ababeel project was compromised. So it's legitimate question and concern to have.



Stop believing in youtube video rumors Zarvan

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## Rafi

The project is on track and it has been decided that its development will not be publicised and even subsequent tests will probably not be advertised and take place when spy satellites are not overhead. The MIRV system is a vital cog in our full spectrum deterrence posture.

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## adelphi

Rafi said:


> The project is on track and it has been decided that its development will not be publicised and even subsequent tests will probably not be advertised and take place when spy satellites are not overhead. The MIRV system is a vital cog in our full spectrum deterrence posture.


We are bound by agreement to inform India regarding all ballistic tests.



Zarvan said:


> That is actually the right question. Because after we punished three people for treason the rumor is our Ababeel project was compromised. So it's legitimate question and concern to have.


If true then whole Shaheen series is compromised. My impression is CIA already have enough information.


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## Zulfiqar

adelphi said:


> We are bound by agreement to inform India regarding all ballistic tests.
> 
> 
> If true then whole Shaheen series is compromised. My impression is CIA already have enough information.



Many years ago, US several times has tried to sabotage our cruise missile tests as well (in order to delay the maturity of our programs).

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## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> That is actually the right question. Because after we punished three people for treason the rumor is our Ababeel project was compromised. So it's legitimate question and concern to have.


you sir need to stop watching haqeeqat tv videos and need to clear your mind.

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## hussain0216

Zarvan said:


> All the details and blue prints and all what your enemy should not get were given to CIA by those traitors. I don't even know if that is true or not but that is rumor. And it's getting more stronger as each year passes without any test.




Yaar it's nonsense,,

Development is on track, but these things take time

Don't indulge in crackpot internet theories


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## khail007

Rafi said:


> The project is on track and it has been decided that its development will not be publicised and even subsequent tests will probably not be advertised and take place when spy satellites are not overhead. The MIRV system is a vital cog in our full spectrum deterrence posture.



Sir G, your statement is booster dose for our dying speculation for Pakistan's MIRV programme.


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## Riz

Zulfiqar said:


> Many years ago, US several times has tried to sabotage our cruise missile tests as well (in order to delay the maturity of our programs).


How?? Can u please share us details?


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## Zulfiqar

Riz said:


> How?? Can u please share us details?



Something on the lines of using their EW systems during our tests. This is the max I can say.


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## Thorough Pro

How was it compromised after the testing and becoming operational?





Zarvan said:


> That is actually the right question. Because after we punished three people for treason the rumor is our Ababeel project was compromised. So it's legitimate question and concern to have.


----------



## Cool_Soldier

I believe, Programme is alive and progressing ahead. This is the one of our answer to ABM.
Second is Cruise missiles
Sub sonic and super sonic (Under development by PN)


Aryeih Leib said:


> 4 yrs passed nothing new about this missile .
> 
> Project cancelled?



When you over estimate yourself OR when you underestimate your opponent, both can be devastating.


----------



## Maarkhoor

Zarvan said:


> That is actually the right question. Because after we punished three people for treason the rumor is our Ababeel project was compromised. So it's legitimate question and concern to have.


Bro This not the case....I can't go in details but espionage is something different about.
Even if we believe it is about Ababeel then why we need to cancelled the project? For what reason, even by releasing videos and details we made it public then why we need to cancel it...for what possible reason....please care to explain....
Many tests are pending because Govt need aid and our economy is under tremendous pressure so when Govt feel free they will allow to resume testing again.

Please don't spread rumors.

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## AUz

Maarkhoor said:


> Bro This not the case....I can't go in details but espionage is something different about.
> Even if we believe it is about Ababeel then why we need to cancelled the project? For what reason, even by releasing videos and details we made it public then why we need to cancel it...for what possible reason....please care to explain....
> *Many tests are pending because Govt need aid and our economy is under tremendous pressure so when Govt feel free they will allow to resume testing again.*
> 
> Please don't spread rumors.




I never understood this line of reasoning. Why would meagre tests of medium-range ballistic missiles will put any restrictions on aid? Pak isn't breaking any treaty by testing its missiles...so what gives? If we test a system that brings Europe under our range---may be, I can see why it will raise eye brows. But how will testing a 2000 km range missile threaten West _SO_ much that they will retaliate by suspending aid? Hard to buy

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## Maarkhoor

Maarkhoor said:


> Bro This not the case....I can't go in details but espionage is something different about.
> Even if we believe it is about Ababeel then why we need to cancelled the project? For what reason, even by releasing videos and details we made it public then why we need to cancel it...for what possible reason....please care to explain....
> Many tests are pending because Govt need aid and our economy is under tremendous pressure so when Govt feel free they will allow to resume testing again.
> 
> Please don't spread rumors.


Eat Almonds....

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## S.Y.A

Zarvan said:


> All the details and blue prints and all what your enemy should not get were given to CIA by those traitors. I don't even know if that is true or not but that is rumor. And it's getting more stronger as each year passes without any test.


no individual has all the details of a strategic project, like this one. projects like these are compartmentalized.


AUz said:


> I never understood this line of reasoning. Why would meagre tests of medium-range ballistic missiles will put any restrictions on aid? Pak isn't breaking any treaty by testing its missiles...so what gives? If we test a system that brings Europe under our range---may be, I can see why it will raise eye brows. But how will testing a 2000 km range missile threaten West _SO_ much that they will retaliate by suspending aid? Hard to buy


one can predict (somewhat) the actual characteristics of any system, if one has experience in that field, no matter what is publicly revealed.

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## AUz

S.Y.A said:


> no individual has all the details of a strategic project, like this one. projects like these are compartmentalized.
> 
> one can predict (somewhat) the actual characteristics of any system, if one has experience in that field, no matter what is publicly revealed.



Yeah, and that still doesn't answer the question as to why would US/West get so threatened by mediocre 2000km to 3000km range missiles of Pak that they would ban aid? This whole mantra of "oh if we test missiles, we will anger west and get our aid banned" makes literally 0 sense to anybody with more than 10 years of schooling. 

We arent talking about ground-breaking weapons here.


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## truthfollower

HRK said:


> developing Anti Ballistic Missile Capabilities


when we are going to develop anti ballistic missile?


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## HRK

truthfollower said:


> when we are going to develop anti ballistic missile?


not in my knowledge, and if we ago with open source info then no such program in Pakistan is in development


truthfollower said:


> when we are going to develop anti ballistic missile?


not in my knowledge, and if we ago with open source info then no such program in Pakistan is in development

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## Crystal-Clear

ababeelwa 🧐🧐🧐🧐🧐🧐


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## AMRAAM

Expect another test/training-launch when S-400 will land in India.


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## air marshal



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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Since India is planning to test Agni 5.
Here we can test our Ababeel SSM as India is also testing its missile.so world pressure can be avoided.
This is the best chance. we should not miss it.


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## Dalit

I wouldn't be surprised that somewhere in the near future we will hear about another Ababeel MIRV test. The scientists must have been very busy making improvements and further enhancing this capability.

For me personally, this is Pakistan's most prestigious missile program along with cruise missiles.


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## arjunk

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Since India is planning to test Agni 5.
> Here we can test our Ababeel SSM as India is also testing its missile.so world pressure can be avoided.
> This is the best chance. we should not miss it.


They tested Agni-P which is specifically targeted to us and we gave no response. 
I don't think there will be any response to Agni-V either.


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## Marker

arjunk said:


> They tested Agni-P which is specifically targeted to us and we gave no response.
> I don't think there will be any response to Agni-V either.


Pakistan's response is offensive and as well as defensive. 

Pakistan possess ballistic missiles in all spectrum ie short, medium and long range. All can carry nuclear warheads, both tactical and strategic. Pakistan also possess air, sea and land launch cruise missiles capable to carry both conventional and nuclear warheads. Recent mod and test of sub sea launch of cruise missile reveals Pakistan's ability of second strike. MIRV is another tech which Pakistan is exploring and I am sure there will be ballistic missiles carrying MIRV warheads in future years.

Of course India is also progressing in this race. 

But Pakistan need to counter the threat coming from India in the form of ballistic missiles and cruise missiles (supersonic and subsonic). For that Pakistan is improving its air defence. For this PAF, PA and PN are inducting various systems to detect, and respond the incoming enemy threats. Recent visit of COAS to PAF and "inauguration" of integrated air defence battle management system in PA are few visible steps.


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## Wesen Hunter

It's 5 years and 3 months without any test of Ababeel. The longest gap between first and second test of a Pakistani ballistic missile.

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## SQ8

Wesen Hunter said:


> It's 5 years and 3 months without any test of Ababeel. The longest gap between first and second test of a Pakistani ballistic missile.


Ababeel was testing the MIRV which has been operationalized on a different system. Hopefully we’ll never have to see if ever the needs comes operationally but then maybe you can see it up close in your city if it warrants it to confirm if it works - let us know then

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## IceCold

Wesen Hunter said:


> It's 5 years and 3 months without any test of Ababeel. The longest gap between first and second test of a Pakistani ballistic missile.


One of the Pak army Brid. was compromised and passed on sensitive information to the Americans. It is rumored to be about this Missile in particular. Many were mindful of this being the case but the way things are unfolding in Pakistan, It is safe to assume that compromising our strategic assets was never really out of the grasp of the Americans. I mean a country that is considered to be involved in overthrowing another country's diplomatic government and all institutions endorsed this threat to be real, the chief of its premier intelligence agency was doing what exactly visiting that particular country? How far have the Americans really penetrated into the Pakistani security apparatus is anyone's guess? 
I hate it to be honest to actually have to admit that to an Indian. My God how far have we really fallen.

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## SD 10

IceCold said:


> One of the Pak army Brid. was compromised and passed on sensitive information to the Americans. It is rumored to be about this Missile in particular. Many were mindful of this being the case but the way things are unfolding in Pakistan, It is safe to assume that compromising our strategic assets was never really out of the grasp of the Americans. I mean a country that is considered to be involved in overthrowing another country's diplomatic government and all institutions endorsed this threat to be real, the chief of its premier intelligence agency was doing what exactly visiting that particular country? How far have the Americans really penetrated into the Pakistani security apparatus is anyone's guess?
> I hate it to be honest to actually have to admit that to an Indian. My God how far have we really fallen.


well look at it this way...we were always compromised its just in this age of tech and less and less media control, that we can see things more clearly!


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## Cool_Soldier

Ababeel Test is due with more range.
Range was intentionally kept secret. It must be more than Shaheen 3 Range.
I guess 3500-4500


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## arjunk

Cool_Soldier said:


> Ababeel Test is due with more range.
> Range was intentionally kept secret. It must be more than Shaheen 3 Range.
> I guess 3500-4500



It will not be tested.


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## Sage

countryman said:


> I think liquid propellant will be more cost effective than solid propellant, however, I think this test is more about testing the knowledge and technology. Knowledge gained through this can be applied for any program.


Liquid propellent creates cracks in the tank...


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## khansaheeb

Cool_Soldier said:


> Ababeel Test is due with more range.
> Range was intentionally kept secret. It must be more than Shaheen 3 Range.
> I guess 3500-4500


It seems with little change it could be used for satellite launches.


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## Wesen Hunter

SQ8 said:


> Ababeel was testing the MIRV which has been operationalized on a different system. Hopefully we’ll never have to see if ever the needs comes operationally but then maybe you can see it up close in your city if it warrants it to confirm if it works - let us know then


Doubtful since no MIRV bulge was spotted in any subsequent Shaheen 2 or 3 tests



IceCold said:


> One of the Pak army Brid. was compromised and passed on sensitive information to the Americans. It is rumored to be about this Missile in particular. Many were mindful of this being the case but the way things are unfolding in Pakistan, It is safe to assume that compromising our strategic assets was never really out of the grasp of the Americans. I mean a country that is considered to be involved in overthrowing another country's diplomatic government and all institutions endorsed this threat to be real, the chief of its premier intelligence agency was doing what exactly visiting that particular country? How far have the Americans really penetrated into the Pakistani security apparatus is anyone's guess?
> I hate it to be honest to actually have to admit that to an Indian. My God how far have we really fallen.


That might cause a delay of 2-3 years at most.


Anyways the Actual reason I have heard is that US made India and Pak agree to a moratorium on MIRV tests by both sides, in addition to no more ABM testing by India.
Which is why no Pak or Indian MIRV tests in recent years and no Indian ABM tests for three years now.

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## Abid123

Marker said:


> Pakistan's response is offensive and as well as defensive.
> 
> Pakistan possess ballistic missiles in all spectrum ie short, medium and long range. All can carry nuclear warheads, both tactical and strategic. Pakistan also possess air, sea and land launch cruise missiles capable to carry both conventional and nuclear warheads. Recent mod and test of sub sea launch of cruise missile reveals Pakistan's ability of second strike. MIRV is another tech which Pakistan is exploring and I am sure there will be ballistic missiles carrying MIRV warheads in future years.
> 
> Of course India is also progressing in this race.
> 
> But Pakistan need to counter the threat coming from India in the form of ballistic missiles and cruise missiles (supersonic and subsonic). For that Pakistan is improving its air defence. For this PAF, PA and PN are inducting various systems to detect, and respond the incoming enemy threats. Recent visit of COAS to PAF and "inauguration" of integrated air defence battle management system in PA are few visible steps.


Come back when you have finally tested a MIRV ICBM.....


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## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> Come back when you have finally tested a MIRV ICBM.....


We don't need an ICBM our enemy is in our next door

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## Abid123

White and Green with M/S said:


> Vi trenger ikke en ICBM, vår fiende er i nabohuset


Oh really brown sahib?


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## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> Oh really brown sahib?


Oh yes Gore sahib


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## WotTen

khansaheeb said:


> It seems with little change it could be used for satellite launches.



ICBM tech can be used for SLV.
Both India and Iran have space launch capability. India earns a lot of money. Pakistan is still sleeping and scared of sanctions. It seems we have no ambition, no skills, no plan for space tech.

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## White and Green with M/S

WotTen said:


> ICBM tech can be used for SLV.
> Both India and Iran have space launch capability. India earns a lot of money. Pakistan is still sleeping and scared of sanctions. It seems we have no ambition, no skills, no plan for space tech.


Do we have $$$ to develop ICBM or SLV??


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## Abid123

White and Green with M/S said:


> Oh yes Gore sahib


We know who you really are. Don't pretend to be one of us.

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## khansaheeb

White and Green with M/S said:


> Do we have $$$ to develop ICBM or SLV??


Iran didn't and still manufactured SLVs

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## Abid123

White and Green with M/S said:


> Do we have $$$ to develop ICBM or SLV??


Yes. Even dirt poor North Korea has.

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## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> Yes. Even dirt poor North Korea has.


No need for throw our resources on a useless thing


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## Bilal9

countryman said:


> I think liquid propellant will be more cost effective than solid propellant, however, I think this test is more about testing the knowledge and technology. Knowledge gained through this can be applied for any program.



Takes much longer to fuel a missile with liquid propellant I understand (compared to solid fuel missiles), sacrificing mission readiness.

Just my two cents, I don't actually know if there are compensation factors.....


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## Goritoes

Under the current Military Leadership, I'd be happy if Pakistan can keep its Military by November when Bajwa retire. Forget MIRV or ICBM, those won't save us but a strong and determined Leadership does.

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## StormBreaker

I miss the days, Back when we had something to be proud over !

Everything is shattered now, As if We were never fans of Military.


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## WotTen

White and Green with M/S said:


> No need for throw our resources on a useless thing



If you think a space launch capability is 'useless', then I don't know what to say,

After WW2, the third dimension (air) became the dominating factor. Very soon, that distinction will move to space. The world will be divided into two groups: countries that have access to space and countries which just climbed out of the trees.


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## Abid123

WotTen said:


> If you think a space launch capability is 'useless', then I don't know what to say,
> 
> After WW2, the third dimension (air) became the dominating factor. Very soon, that distinction will move to space. The world will be divided into two groups: countries that have access to space and countries which just climbed out of the trees.


He is known for being deluded. Don't bother.



White and Green with M/S said:


> No need for throw our resources on a useless thing


SLV are useless things kid


----------



## White and Green with M/S

WotTen said:


> If you think a space launch capability is 'useless', then I don't know what to say,
> 
> After WW2, the third dimension (air) became the dominating factor. Very soon, that distinction will move to space. The world will be divided into two groups: countries that have access to space and countries which just climbed out of the trees.


First tell me do we have $$$ to develop SLV



Abid123 said:


> SLV are useless things kid


WHERE IS THE $$$ TO DEVELOP SLV???



Abid123 said:


> SLV are useless things kid


WHERE IS THE $$$ TO DEVELOP SLV???


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## WotTen

White and Green with M/S said:


> First tell me do we have $$$ to develop SLV



End subsidies for sugar mafia, petroleum mafia.
Collect proper income taxes from the top 1% Pakistani.


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## khansaheeb

White and Green with M/S said:


> No need for throw our resources on a useless thing


what a useless opinion.


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## White and Green with M/S

WotTen said:


> End subsidies for sugar mafia, petroleum mafia.
> Collect proper income taxes from the top 1% Pakistani.


Stick to topic

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## WotTen

White and Green with M/S said:


> Stick to topic



You asked the question where to get the money. I told you.
If you don't like the answer, that's not my problem.

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## doorstar

WotTen said:


> End subsidies for sugar mafia, petroleum mafia.
> Collect proper income taxes from the top 1% Pakistani...


...and stop subsidising people having multiple wives and in some cases more than a dozen kids (in a few documented cases more than 32) spend on family planning if that fails do nasbandi indira style. 

none of that would be done under moron e ahzam who is imagining himself a scholar on all thing Islamic esp. shirk (or under the crooks due to fear of molvis).


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## Pak_Sher

White and Green with M/S said:


> We don't need an ICBM our enemy is in our next door


You need it if you are going to fire a missile from Gawder to reach Indian Bases located all the way in eastern regions of India. They are 4000+ kilometers away @White and Green with M/S


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## WotTen

Pak_Sher said:


> You need it if you are going to fire a missile from Gawder to reach Indian Bases located all the way in eastern regions of India. They are 4000+ kilometers away @White and Green with M/S



We also need one to have a credible second strike capability from submarine launched ICBM. It will allow us to position our submarines in a much wider region for India to guess.

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## White and Green with M/S

WotTen said:


> You asked the question where to get the money. I told you.
> If you don't like the answer, that's not my problem.


Stick to the topic this is not a geopolitical thread



Pak_Sher said:


> You need it if you are going to fire a missile from Gawder to reach Indian Bases located all the way in eastern regions of India. They are 4000+ kilometers away @White and Green with M/S


Main targets are within the range of our shaheen 3, in fact all India has covered by shaheen 3 no need to develop IRBM class BMs

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## Cool_Soldier

There is always need to have deterrence against unseen or new changing geopolitical environment can be demanding .


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## mudas777

White and Green with M/S said:


> Stick to the topic this is not a geopolitical thread
> 
> 
> Main targets are within the range of our shaheen 3, in fact all India has covered by shaheen 3 no need to develop IRBM class BMs



We have got immediate enemy next door and the hidden enemy across the globe we can't be oblivious to both the enemies. If we have to make a mark in this world and stay protected we need to stand up to both the enemies so stop advocating against Pakistan having the ICBM's. 
Until and unless both enemies know, we have got the capability regardless how crap it is to hurt them back they are not going to stop undercutting us. The way US is supplying weapons to the fascist Modi regime, imagine if we had some decent defence industries and we start selling them to the Syria do you really think US will not going to consider our security concerns while telling us mind theirs ? In one way traffic, cars only go in one direction for a reason, if you want someone to change their behaviours it must be in their interests too. 
No one cared about North Korea short range missiles developments as it can only be targeted against South Korea and Japan and the day North Korea developed ICBM US got their pants wet. If US questions our motives of developing the ICBM tell them we like to take pictures of the polar bears in the Alaska wilderness.


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## Abid123

White and Green with M/S said:


> First tell me do we have $$$ to develop SLV
> 
> 
> WHERE IS THE $$$ TO DEVELOP SLV???
> 
> 
> WHERE IS THE $$$ TO DEVELOP SLV???


North Korea which is dirt poor has developed and tested SLV and you think we dont have the money? Seriously?



White and Green with M/S said:


> No need for throw our resources on a useless thing


SLV is not useless. We can use it monitor military activity along the LOC, Arabian ocean, Indian ocean etc... Very valuable asset.


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## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> North Korea which is dirt poor has developed and tested SLV and you think we dont have the money? Seriously?
> 
> 
> SLV is not useless. We can use it monitor military activity along the LOC, Arabian ocean, Indian ocean etc... Very valuable asset.


What few kilograms of launching capabilities worth nothing


----------



## MultaniGuy

Side-Winder said:


> Pak successfully conducted first flight test of SSM #ABABEEL, Rg 2200 Km. #COAS congrats team and Pak Armed Forces for landmk achievement.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/823845297432498176
> *The missile is MIRV capable *- LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
> 
> View attachment 371448
> View attachment 371449


Yeah but also test an ICBM as well.


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## Umair Nawaz

bhai, ye mighty MIRV missile to ghayab he ho gya ha!

Kisi ko yaad b ha k Ababeel-1 b koi missile hua karta tha?

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## mhosein

Forget Ababeel, the scum government endorsed and brought to power by U.S/U.K is going to strip Pakistan of its Nuclear Arsenal and make into a SLAVE STATE. These Ababeels are as good as mickey mouse in Disneyland. May the scum who support this, be dealt with by Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah ... I pray soon, in-sha-Allah.

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## Fasbre2

Under the current circumstances, discussions about missiles and defense equipment is futile. In any future conflict, one call from a junior US state department official will be enough to make the COAS and army leadership lie down and roll over….

Moreover, rate at which things are deteriorating there will be no money for defense production, or purchasing military equipment.. the loans you get will hardly be enough for energy purchases.. countries are progressing towards electric cars we will be going back to horse and carts.. better open up the motorways for them because nobody will be driving cars on them …

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## MultaniGuy

I advise testing an ICBM.

Or get ICBM technologies from China.


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## Abid123

MultaniGuy said:


> I advise testing an ICBM.
> 
> Or get ICBM technologies from China.


We already have ICBM technology.

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## MultaniGuy

Abid123 said:


> We already have ICBM technology.


Then test a Taimur ICBM then.


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## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> We already have ICBM technology.


Where and when show me a proofs of your nonsense


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## Abid123

White and Green with M/S said:


> Where and when show me a proofs of your nonsense


The troll man is back. 







We have had ICBM tech since at least 2014. Now kindly fu*k off and stop wasting my time.

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## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> The troll man is back.
> 
> View attachment 855035
> 
> 
> We have had ICBM tech since at least 2014. Now kindly fu*k off and stop wasting my time.


Lol what's the fuxk I want to from military source not for some our stupid politicians for STUNT


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## Abid123

White and Green with M/S said:


> Lol what's the fuxk I want to from military source not for some our stupid politicians for STUNT


He was defence production minister dear troll man. Everybody with half a brain knows that Pakistan has had ICBM for years now. But I guess you are brainless? Iran also has ICBM tech while not even being a nuclear power.


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## MultaniGuy

Abid123 said:


> He was defence production minister dear troll man. Everybody with half a brain knows that Pakistan has had ICBM for years now. But I guess you are brainless? Iran also has ICBM tech while not even being a nuclear power.


Source? I checked the internet. No where does it say Iran has ICBM technology.


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## khansaheeb

so Ababeel can travel 2000knm but space is only 100KM away, why can't Pakistan launch satellites? What are we waiting for?

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## Abid123

MultaniGuy said:


> Source? I checked the internet. No where does it say Iran has ICBM technology.


Iran has put satellites into orbit many times. If you can put a satelitte into orbit you can launch a warhead to anywhere on earth. Common knowledge in missile technology brother.









Qased (rocket) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Iran's Qased SLV can be used as a ICBM.

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## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> He was defence production minister dear troll man. Everybody with half a brain knows that Pakistan has had ICBM for years now. But I guess you are brainless? Iran also has ICBM tech while not even being a nuclear power.





Abid123 said:


> He was defence production minister dear troll man. Everybody with half a brain knows that Pakistan has had ICBM for years now. But I guess you are brainless? Iran also has ICBM tech while not even being a nuclear power.


He was still politician and we know what is the reputation of Pakistan govt officials


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## Abid123

White and Green with M/S said:


> He was still politician and we know what is the reputation of Pakistan govt officials


No point in discussing with such a braindead person like you sorrry.


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## Super Falcon

Good Pakistan is also very close to get hypersonic Missile's along side them


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## khansaheeb

White and Green with M/S said:


> Lol what's the fuxk I want to from military source not for some our stupid politicians for STUNT


What fuxk man, you are showing the same response of disbelief as when I used to tell foreigners Pakistan had the nuke. Pakistan has had ICBM technology since the 1990s just requires a political decision to test and arm.

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## Abid123

khansaheeb said:


> What fuxk man, you are showing the same response of disbelief as when I used to tell foreigners Pakistan had the nuke. Pakistan has had ICBM technology since the 1990s just requires a political decision to test and arm.


Bro this is the same guy that claimed that SLV are "useless" and no point wasting our money on them. He is really deluded.

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## White and Green with M/S

Abid123 said:


> No point in discussing with such a braindead person like you sorrry.


Ok have a bad day



khansaheeb said:


> What fuxk man, you are showing the same response of disbelief as when I used to tell foreigners Pakistan had the nuke. Pakistan has had ICBM technology since the 1990s just requires a political decision to test and arm.


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