# DULMIAL, PAKISTAN – The Village with the Gun



## anant_s

Remembering the soldiers of the First World War, 100 years on.


By Dr Irfan Malik and Michael Noble (The Centre for Hidden Histories, University of Nottingham)







A nineteenth century cannon sits at the centre of a Pakistani village. Here we take a look at the story of the Dulmial Gun.

Dulmial is a village approximately a hundred miles south of Islamabad, in the Salt Range region. A century ago, the area was part of British India, which meant that its inhabitants were drawn into the Great War on the side of the Allies. A settlement steeped in military history, Dulmial sent 460 of its men to fight in the British Army, including both of Dr Malik’s great grandfathers. The largest single participation of any village in Asia. Nine gave their lives. In recognition of the significant military service and sacrifice, in 1925 the British Government offered Dulmial an award of their choosing. The man in charge of choosing was Captain Ghulam Mohammad Malik, the highest ranking and most decorated soldier of the village. The Captain was a man of great experience, having commenced his military life in the Derajet Mountain Battery and participated in Lord Roberts’ famous march from Kabul to Kandahar in 1880. His photograph and achievements are documented in the book ‘The History of the Indian Mountain Artillery’ by Brigadier-General Graham published in 1957. A career soldier, Captain Malik eschewed the British offers of land, money and water facilities, choosing instead to have Dulmial’s contribution recognised with the presentation of a cannon.




The British agreed to this selection and provided Dulmial with a twelve pounder. The cannon itself was made at Carron ironworks, in Falkirk, Scotland in 1816. Its stand was built in Cossipore Gun Foundry, India, under the leadership of Captain A. Broome, in 1847. The gun was first collected from the First Punjab Regimental Centre in Jhelum, from where it was carried by train to Chakwal. There the gun was dismounted and loaded in a cart to be pulled by three pairs of oxen for the remaining 28 kms. The roads were semi-mountainous and the passage was difficult. It would take the ox carts two weeks to cover the distance. From 5 kms out, at ChoaSaiden Shah, the route became more difficult still and Dulmial had to dispatch five additional pairs of oxen to relieve the initial six to complete the gun’s journey.




Safely in Dulmial, the gun was placed at the centre of the village and a photograph taken with the local commissioned officers. It remains there today, a reminder of the contribution that Dulmial made in the First World War.





Dulmial is now known within Pakistan as the ‘village with the gun’, but is rather less well known in the UK. This is because little has been written or published about the village in English. Dr Malik in collaboration with Michael Noble, The Centre for Hidden Histories, University of Nottingham aims to research the First World War history of the village as it played such an impressive part during that period. Since that time Dulmial has continued to produce many generations of high ranking, distinguished Army officers. It is our intention to bring this hidden history to a wider audience and help to share the reasons of just what a nineteenth century Scottish cannon is doing in the Salt Range region of Pakistan.

After informing the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London of Dulmial’s significant history, several representatives of the village attended the First World War Centenary reception at the British High Commission, Islamabad, Pakistan, on 10th November 2014. This is a great honour and privilege for the inhabitants and worldwide descendants of Dulmial.






DULMIAL, PAKISTAN – The Village with the Gun

@AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx @Levina @waz @WAJsal @Armstrong @jbgt90 @FaujHistorian @Atanz @Khafee @Roybot @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Imran Khan @LoveIcon

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## Levina

I found the thread interesting, gleaned some more on this topic. A lot of men volunteered for WWII also and this incident is from then...
Quoting from another source
"
Haji Malik Muhammad Khan was one of those men. Now 91 years of age, the old soldier is still fit enough to take a daily march across the village.

"I was recruited in the British army on December 11, 1940," he told AFP. "Everybody from our village was going to fight because there was great poverty around here."

Khan's service with a Punjab infantry regiment fighting the feared Japanese took him to some of the toughest theatres of the war in the east -- Burma (now called Myanmar), Indonesia and Malaya (now Malaysia).

There were many difficult times during the war," he said. "*Many a time we had to eat the roots of banana plants to quell our hunger*."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/af...akistani-village-gave-sons-fight-Britain.html

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ghazi52

Mr. Sharf Din, appointed as honorary lieutenant for Land Forces in the British Indian Army on first August 1933 with the order of King of England George fifth.

Lieutenant Sharif Din was resident of village Changa Bangyal, near Gujar Khan, Rawalpindi. He died in 1950.


----------



## Dubious

*The Pakistan village that sent all of its men to fight in WWI - and was nearly airbrushed out of history*





Officers from the village of Dulmial in Pakistan, who fought alongside the British in the First World War CREDIT: ANDREW FOX/ANDREW FOX

Joe Shute 
25 OCTOBER 2018 • 6:40AM


Dr Irfan Malik was just five years-old when he left his native Nottingham to visit his ancestral village of Dulmial in Pakistan. Aside from the heat and the dust and privations of this small agricultural village in the Salt Range Region of the Punjab 100 miles south of Islamabad, one particular detail registered in his young mind: a 12lb British cannon, mounted on a marble plinth ‘in recognition of services rendered by all ranks from this village’ during the First World War.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/...sent-men-fight-wwi-nearly-airbrushed-history/


Cant get the rest of the story...Anybody?

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## BHarwana

Dubious said:


> *The Pakistan village that sent all of its men to fight in WWI - and was nearly airbrushed out of history*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Officers from the village of Dulmial in Pakistan, who fought alongside the British in the First World War CREDIT: ANDREW FOX/ANDREW FOX
> 
> Joe Shute
> 25 OCTOBER 2018 • 6:40AM
> 
> 
> Dr Irfan Malik was just five years-old when he left his native Nottingham to visit his ancestral village of Dulmial in Pakistan. Aside from the heat and the dust and privations of this small agricultural village in the Salt Range Region of the Punjab 100 miles south of Islamabad, one particular detail registered in his young mind: a 12lb British cannon, mounted on a marble plinth ‘in recognition of services rendered by all ranks from this village’ during the First World War.
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/...sent-men-fight-wwi-nearly-airbrushed-history/
> 
> 
> Cant get the rest of the story...Anybody?



Kirthari are very hard to defeat.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## H!TchHiker

Interesting read.....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dubious

*The Pakistani village that gave its sons to fight for Britain*
By AFP

PUBLISHED: 04:41 BST, 11 November 2014 | UPDATED: 04:41 BST, 11 November 2014

Down a broken road winding through a corner of *Pakistan's Punjab province lies a silent graveyard, the resting place of hundreds of soldiers who fought for Britain in two world wars.*

Nestled in the* rocky hills of Punjab's salt ranges,* blasted by heat in the summer, *the village of Dulmial is a far cry from the freezing mud of the Flanders trenches.*

But the village, around 150 kilometres (90 miles) from Islamabad, *gave 460 men to fight in the 1914-18 conflict -- more than any other single village in what was then British India.*







A resident displays a photograph of captain Malik Ghulam Muhammad, a veteran of WWI, in the village of Dulmial in Pakistan's Chakwal district on October 29, 2014 ©Aamir Qureshi (AFP/File)

By the end of World War I, *nearly 1.3 million men from across the Indian subcontinent had volunteered for service, with 74,000 giving their lives in the fight against Germany and its allies.*

As part of commemorations of the *100th anniversary of the start of World War I, the British High Commission in Islamabad unveiled a plaque on Monday honouring Pakistani recipients of the Victoria Cross.*

*Three soldiers from what is now Pakistan were awarded the VC, Britain's highest military honour, for extreme bravery under fire.*

*Dulmial's contribution to Britain's war effort is recognised with a historic 12-pounder artillery gun, made in Scotland, installed on a marble platform in 1925 as a memorial and still kept an immaculate, gleaming black.*

A few metres away, the primary school building has another plaque placed on a monument.

*"From this village 460 men went to the Great War 1914-1919. Of these 9 gave their lives," *the plaque reads.


- Proud history -

*Dulmial's military tradition continues to this day -- the district is still a fertile recruiting ground for Pakistan's armed forces.*

The WWI centenary has sparked interest in the village's history and the sacrifice made for the colonial rulers, who governed the subcontinent until it was divided into India and Pakistan at independence in 1947.

*A one-room museum in the former home of late WWI veteran Fateh Muhammad Malik houses mementoes of the village's proud heritage -- a captured Italian battle flag, old military equipment and photos of soldiers.*

*"Three soldiers of our village received Indian Order of Merit (IOM) medals for their bravery and valour shown for the British forces during various wars,"* said Riaz Ahmed Malik, president of Dulmial's history society.

*"The IOM medal was equivalent to the Victoria Cross because this top British military medal was not awarded to Indian soldiers before 1911."*

Troops from the village were also honoured for bravery fighting in France in 1915, he said.

"Besides *460 men of our village who fought in WWI, at least 736 went to fight in WWII*," Malik said.


- 'We ate roots' -

*Haji Malik Muhammad Khan was one of those men. Now 91 years of age*,* the old soldier is still fit enough to take a daily march across the village.*

"I was recruited in the British army on *December 11, 1940*," he told AFP. *"Everybody from our village was going to fight because there was great poverty around here."*

Khan's service with a Punjab infantry regiment* fighting the feared Japanese took him to some of the toughest theatres of the war in the east -- Burma (now called Myanmar), Indonesia and Malaya (now Malaysia)*.

"There were many difficult times during the war," he said.* "Many a time we had to eat the roots of banana plants to quell our hunger.*

"Once our whole regiment was surrounded by the Japanese in the forests of Burma. As intelligence officer, I was assigned to get us out of the siege and thank God I succeeded."

Almost 70 years after the end of WWII, Khan wants no one else to go through the horrors he witnessed as a young man.

*"Disputes should be solved through talks. There should be no war. War destroys countries, lands, crops, people. War is a very bad thing," he said.*

But for Malik, wars have put their village on the map, making it stand out from the thousands of others that dot Punjab.

"This cannon installed here is our pride. If we did not have this gun for our martial services, our village would have been like all others," he said.
*
"Our village sent the highest number of soldiers in WWI from Asia and we are proud of our history."*

His mission now is to *build a monument to accompany the gun, commemorating soldiers from the village who fought for Pakistan, as well as the British Empire.*






A resident displays a photograph of veterans of WWI and WWII in the village of Dulmial in Pakistan's Chakwal district on October 29, 2014 ©Aamir Qureshi (AFP/File)






Riaz Ahmed Malik, general secretary for the social welfare society of his village, diplays the medals awarded to his late father subedar Muhammad Khan Malik by The British Raj, a veteran of WWI and WWII, in Dulmial on October 29, 2014 ©Aamir Qureshi (AFP/File)






Schoolchildren play beside a cannon placed in the village of Dulmial in pakistan's Chakwal district on October 29, 2014 ©Aamir Qureshi (AFP/File)






Riaz Ahmed Malik (L), general secretary for the social welfare society of his village, offers prayers at the grave of Captain Malik Ghulam Muhammad, a veteran of WWI, in the village of Dulmial in Pakistan's Chakwal district on October 29, 2014 ©Aamir Qureshi (AFP/File)


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/a...akistani-village-gave-sons-fight-Britain.html

Cant believe a tabloid had to produce this! Cant find much in mainstream papers!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## jamal18

Er.. they went to fight for an enemy occupying their country..?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Dubious

*Dulmial: the Pakistani 'village with the gun' honouring WW1 soldiers who fought for Britain*
Posted on centenarynews.com on *25 November 2014*

_A cannon displayed in the Pakistani village of Dulmial honours 460 soldiers who fought for Britain in the First World War. Dr Irfan Malik and Michael Noble, of the Centre for Hidden Histories at the University of Nottingham, tell the remarkable story._

Dulmial is a village approximately 100 miles south of Islamabad, in the Salt Range region. A century ago, the area was part of British India, which meant that its inhabitants were drawn into the Great War on the side of the Allies.

A settlement steeped in military history, Dulmial sent 460 of its men to fight in the British Army, including both of Dr Irfan Malik’s great grandfathers. It was the largest single participation of any village in Asia. Nine gave their lives.

In recognition of the significant military service and sacrifice, in 1925 the British Government offered Dulmial an award of their choosing. The man in charge of choosing was Captain Ghulam Mohammad Malik, the highest ranking and most decorated soldier of the village.

The Captain was a man of great experience, having commenced his military life in the Derajet Mountain Battery and participated in Lord Roberts' famous march from Kabul to Kandahar in 1880. His photograph and achievements are documented in Brigadier-General C.A.L. Graham's book '_The History of the Indian Mountain Artillery',_ published in 1957. A career soldier, he eschewed the British offers of land, money and water facilities, choosing instead to have Dulmial’s contribution recognised with the presentation of a cannon.

'Twelve Pounder' 

The British agreed to this selection and provided Dulmial with a twelve pounder. The cannon itself was made at Carron ironworks, in Falkirk, Scotland, in 1816. Its stand was built in Cossipore Gun Foundry, India, under the leadership of Captain A. Broome, in 1847.

The gun was first collected from the First Punjab Regimental Centre in Jhelum, from where it was carried by train to Chakwal. There the gun was dismounted and loaded in a cart to be pulled by three pairs of oxen for the remaining 28 kilometres (17 miles). The roads were semi-mountainous and the passage was difficult. It would take the ox carts two weeks to cover the distance. From five kilometres out (three miles), at Choa Saiden Shah, the route became more difficult still and Dulmial had to dispatch five additional pairs of oxen to relieve the initial six and complete the gun’s journey.






_(Photo, by Dr Irfan Malik, from an original picture, displayed in Dulmial village)_

Safely in Dulmial, the gun was placed at the centre of the village and a photograph taken with the local commissioned officers. It remains there today, a reminder of the contribution that Dulmial made in the First World War.

Dulmial is now known within Pakistan as the 'village with the gun’, but is rather less well known in the UK. This is because little has been written or published about the village in English. Dr Malik in collaboration with Michael Noble, The Centre for Hidden Histories, University of Nottingham, aims to research the First World War history of the village as it played such an impressive part during that period.

Since that time Dulmial has continued to produce many generations of high ranking, distinguished army officers. It is our intention to bring this hidden history to a wider audience and help to share the reasons of just what a 19th century Scottish cannon is doing in the Salt Range region of Pakistan.



After informing the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London of Dulmial’s significant history, several representatives of the village attended the First World War Centenary reception at the British High Commission, Islamabad, Pakistan, on November 10th 2014. This is a great honour and privilege for the inhabitants and worldwide descendants of Dulmial.


_© Centenary Digital Ltd & Authors_

_Images courtesy of Dr Irfan Malik & the village of Dulmial

http://www.centenarynews.com/article?id=3097_



jamal18 said:


> Er.. they went to fight for an enemy occupying their country..?


At that time it was the govt...They went to fight from their land for who...well that depends how you see it...If during the ancient times people went to fight for the Ottomans....What did you call that?


----------



## maximuswarrior

We need to stop being proud of such shit. This wasn't out war and we merely got dragged into it.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## H!TchHiker

Strange that we don't have this stories published in our newspapers or even discussed in Media..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## New World

__ https://www.facebook.com/

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dubious

maximuswarrior said:


> We need to stop being proud of such shit. This wasn't out war and we merely got dragged into it.


Its not about the war it is about the dedication and also sacrifices of the people of this land! When bastards say go back to your land...MANY now can say our grandpa's saved yours so shut up!

Apart from that....Many of these people arent even acknowledged by our own like you for instance and the next generation isnt being told as said below: 



H!TchHiker said:


> Strange that we don't have this stories published in our newspapers or even discussed in Media..




Always be proud of your heritage..You can view the coin from either sides its still a coin!

You can view this as other people's war or our people's dedication and sacrifice ...the bottom line is it is our history , culture and tradition...OWN IT!

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## jamal18

Dubious said:


> At that time it was the govt...They went to fight from their land for who...well that depends how you see it...If during the ancient times people went to fight for the Ottomans....What did you call that?



The Germans occupying Poland were also the 'government' but the Poles fought against them, not for them. As for comparing them to the Ottomons, is this a joke. The caliph represented _all _muslims, regardless of your personal beliefs. I have little sympathy for slaves fighting for the very people that are oppressing them.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Dubious

H!TchHiker said:


> Strange that we don't have this stories published in our newspapers or even discussed in Media..


Yes! And the proud lines in which the article/ tabloid pens it...and again in telegraph.co.uk sends a bright msg of how Pakistanis did sacrifice and always will! How we are important and always will be!



jamal18 said:


> The Germans occupying Poland were also the 'government' but the Poles fought against them, not for them. As for comparing them to the Ottomons, is this a joke. The caliph represented _all _muslims, regardless of your personal beliefs. I have little sympathy for slaves fighting for the very people that are oppressing them.


1) it was an example
2) We also fought *against *the British....we were called terrorists not freedom fighters
3) No joke...Ottomons were still foreigners semantics! 
4) Caliph WAS SUPPOSED TO BE...but many had palaces and concubines - 
(A) Palaces means wealth was not being distributed properly = against Islam where wealth has to circulate
(B) concubines? Do I need to say more?

As for slaves fighting...It wasnt the best thing but because this village did so...It is on the map! Even today's Pakistani army recruits from there coz these people know their history and are proud fighters IRRESPECTIVE of whom they fought with/ against!


----------



## H!TchHiker

jamal18 said:


> Er.. they went to fight for an enemy occupying their country..?


What if your next generation fight for UK ?I am supposing you are UK citizen...correct me if i am wrong ..Blaming those people its easy thing to do..It was there sacrifice that made there village to be surface on map and there next generation is now serving PA

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## jamal18

H!TchHiker said:


> What if your next generation fight for UK ?I am supposing you are UK citizen...correct me if i am wrong ..Blaming those people its easy thing to do..It was there sacrifice that made there village to be surface on map and there next generation is now serving PA



Next generation? I hope _this _generation fight for the UK. 

There is a difference of us living here by choice and are part of the community, and those villagers who were invaded and occupied by a foreign power.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## H!TchHiker

jamal18 said:


> Next generation? I hope _this _generation fight for the UK.
> 
> There is a difference of us living here by choice and are part of the community, and those villagers who were invaded and occupied by a foreign power.


Who was Invader to them ? Sikhs ruling before Englishmen ? or Mughals ? or Gori ? where do you want to put the full stop....
At-least they died and buried in there land..What do you think they were not "Offered" to settled in UK at that time ? Difference is they "choose" there land ..
while you are clearly .............sitting in "Darul kufar" and passing remarks about them..Sorry for being straight forward if you don't like the choice of words

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dubious

jamal18 said:


> I hope _this _generation fight for the UK.


and buried in UK? 

Good for you angrez now please stop talking about our land and our people 



jamal18 said:


> There is a difference of us living here by choice and are part of the community, and those villagers who were invaded and occupied by a foreign power.


By choice or not fact of the matter is this lot died for this land is burried on this land...None of your business now isnt it? Coz you and your descents will fight for UK and if UK wages a war on Pakistan these lot will be against you and your descendants ...So agrez wanna be...Keep to your own and we keep to ours!



Dubious said:


> @WebMaster @waz @The Eagle @Horus merge my thread with : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dulmial-pakistan-the-village-with-the-gun.424389/


 @waz bro merge thread please!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Lucky Breeze

jamal18 said:


> Er.. they went to fight for an enemy occupying their country..?


They went to fight for queen noor-e-illahi.


----------



## jamal18

This is a problem of mindset. If a people invade your land, you fight _against_ them, not _for_ them. I simply don't understand this, obviously you're happy with this.

As for the UK waging war against Pakistan, they already have. It was called British India. And the people of that village decided to fight for the British.

Any way, you have your mindset and I have mine. I suggest you argue the point and lay off the abuse or I will reply in kind.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## 313ghazi

jamal18 said:


> Er.. they went to fight for an enemy occupying their country..?



Not only fighting for the country who was occupying thier country, but was also fighting the Khalifa of the Muslims. 

Anything for a penny though. They might be heroes to those they left behind but I have no respect for them.


----------



## jamal18

313ghazi said:


> Not only fighting for the country who was occupying thier country, but was also fighting the Khalifa of the Muslims.
> 
> Anything for a penny though. They might be heroes to those they left behind but I have no respect for them.



At last a man with my mindset. It was getting lonely here.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## waz

Some posters really need to look into history here!!
Just where do you think the Pakistani army came from, thin air! The men who put together the Pakistani army at the birth of the nation *ALL * served in the British Indian Army. Pakistan was one of the very countries that at its birth, it had a large standing army ready to serve and protect it.
The men who served learned invaluable skills on the battlefield, including command and control structures, army logistics, infantry/armoured manoeuvres, operation and maintenance of field equipment and weapons and I can go on for ages.
They also had also tested their skills in live combat against two of the most formidable enemies the world has known i.e. the Japanese Imperial Army and the German Wehrmacht. It's with these skills they came to secure the freedom of Pakistan, the Empire knew this at the time and so did the founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and they left. Jinnah (May Allah's mercy be upon him) played our hand and supported the war;

*The Muslim League Leaders fully exploited the war situation. Under encouragement during the war crisis Mr. Jinnah by making profound promises of Muslim aid in the war effort,

Addressing to the 31st session of the Muslim League at Karachi in December 1943 Jinnah proclaimed: “We have time and again made it clear- we have offered our hand of co-operation for the job or work that Lord Wavell (new Viceroy) wants to do,*

http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol. 22 Issue7/Version-16/A22070160104.pdf

So people have an issue with Jinnah(ra)?


When partition happened Pakistan received its army, an army that was able to;
-*Help evacuate and resettle partition refugees.
-Secure Pakistan's borders.
-Put down rebellions.
-Provide security on the streets in the absence of a police force.
-Secure Kashmir.*

It's that last point regrading securing Kashmir that I will bring in my personal experience. My grandfather (1st Punjab) and my entire elder generation fought in the British Indian Army. It was these men who came back and then destroyed the Dogra army occupying Azad Kashmir and then charged towards Srinager, and contrary to the myth that is still put out here, *no the tribal folk did not free Azad Kashmir*, it was cleared out by the AKRF, as it was known back then. The tribals joined the fight when what is now Indian occupied Kashmir was attacked.

Let's just say that the people calling for Pakistan just sat back and decided not to be 'slaves' or any other stupid term you want to use, been right good little babus and listened to what Congress said and boycotted the war and kept our men at home. Do you honestly think there would have been a Pakistan? *The Indian army would have steam rolled what is now Pakistan Punjab, Sind , Azad Kashmir and might have come stuck in Balochistan and of course Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which they would then occupy.* They would have burned every village, town, city. Massacred anyone that called for Pakistan and indulged in mass rape of all our women.

Oh this might not have happened? I beg you tell me, just how would they have been stopped? They would have had a professional, battle hardened army, where at most Pakistan's people would face them with militias.

Look what happened to Hyderabad, they wanted Pakistan and they were invaded, heck they even had an armed force, which being weak was pushed aside. So what followed? Massacres of civilians, including children. Burning of mosques, the mass rape of women, some Indian army troops took several Muslim women each night to 'entertain' them. Read it up.

Anyway the bottom line is that had our men not served Pakistan would have never happened. I can't think of any occasion where the old saying that 'each cloud has a silver lining' is more appropriate than in this situation.
Allah bless the veterans of the Second World War, our elders and the protectors of Pakistan.

@DESERT FIGHTER 
@Irfan Baloch

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## 313ghazi

jamal18 said:


> At last a man with my mindset. It was getting lonely here.



People talk about embracing history and the past. I don't know why. Not all of the past is glorious and should be beloved. The only thing you should always do is learn from the past. 

The Chinese call thier time of colonisation the century of shame. That shame has driven them to the peak of society. Meanwhile we sit there talking about the railways and palaces empire left behind and how our brethren fought valiantly alongside thier occupiers. 

If we acknowledged the shame we could them use it as motivation, unfortunately we're too arrogant to see the defeats of the past for what they were.



waz said:


> Some posters really need to look into history here!!
> Just where do you think the Pakistani army came from, thin air! The men who put together the Pakistani army at the birth of the nation *ALL * served in the British Indian Army. Pakistan was one of the very countries that at its birth, it had a large standing army ready to serve and protect it.
> The men who served learned invaluable skills on the battlefield, including command and control structures, army logistics, infantry/armoured manoeuvres, operation and maintenance of field equipment and weapons and I can go on for ages.
> They also had also tested their skills in live combat against two of the most formidable enemies the world has known i.e. the Japanese Imperial Army and the German Wehrmacht. It's with these skills they came to secure the freedom of Pakistan, the Empire knew this at the time and so did the founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and they left. Jinnah (May Allah's mercy be upon him) played our hand and supported the war;
> 
> *The Muslim League Leaders fully exploited the war situation. Under encouragement during the war crisis Mr. Jinnah by making profound promises of Muslim aid in the war effort,
> 
> Addressing to the 31st session of the Muslim League at Karachi in December 1943 Jinnah proclaimed: “We have time and again made it clear- we have offered our hand of co-operation for the job or work that Lord Wavell (new Viceroy) wants to do,*
> 
> http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol. 22 Issue7/Version-16/A22070160104.pdf
> 
> So people have an issue with Jinnah(ra)?
> 
> 
> When partition happened Pakistan received its army, an army that was able to;
> -*Help evacuate and resettle partition refugees.
> -Secure Pakistan's borders.
> -Put down rebellions.
> -Provide security on the streets in the absence of a police force.
> -Secure Kashmir.*
> 
> It's that last point regrading securing Kashmir that I will bring in my personal experience. My grandfather (1st Punjab) and my entire elder generation fought in the British Indian Army. It was these men who came back and then destroyed the Dogra army occupying Azad Kashmir and then charged towards Srinager, and contrary to the myth that is still put out here, *no the tribal folk did not free Azad Kashmir*, it was cleared out by the AKRF, as it was known back then. The tribals joined the fight when what is now Indian occupied Kashmir was attacked.
> 
> Let's just say that the people calling for Pakistan just sat back and decided not to be 'slaves' or any other stupid term you want to use, been right good little babus and listened to what Congress said and boycotted the war and kept our men at home. Do you honestly think there would have been a Pakistan? *The Indian army would have steam rolled what is now PakistanPunjab, Sind , Azad Kashmir and might have come stuck in Balochistan and of course Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which would then occupy.* They would have burned every village, town, city. Massacred anyone that called for Pakistan and indulged in mass rape of all our women.
> 
> Oh this might not have happened? I beg you tell me, just how would they have been stopped? They would have had a professional, battle hardened army, where at most Pakistan's people would face them with militias.
> 
> Look what happened to Hyderabad, they wanted Pakistan and they were invaded, heck they even had an armed force, which being weak was pushed aside. So what followed? Massacres of civilians, including children. Burning of mosques, the mass rape of women, some Indian army troops took several Muslim women each night to 'entertain' them. Read it up.
> 
> Anyway the bottom line is that had our men not served Pakistan would have never happened. I can't think of any occasion where the old saying that 'each cloud has a silver lining' is more appropriate than in this situation.
> Allah bless the veterans of the Second World War, our elders and the protectors of Pakistan.



Man lives and dies by his mistakes. Had we followed the sunna and each man maintained physical preperation and equipment for jihad, then maybe they would have had a better option. 

We should recognise the sacrifices our elders gave for our nation and accept the desperate route they had to take to attain the means to do it. However let's not glorify the hodge podge of mistakes that was our colonial past.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## waz

313ghazi said:


> Man lives and dies by his mistakes. Had we followed the sunna and each man maintained physical preperation and equipment for jihad, then maybe they would have had a better option.
> 
> We should recognise the sacrifices our elders gave for our nation and accept the desperate route they had to take to attain the means to do it. However let's not glorify the hodge podge of mistakes that was our colonial past.



We can all say about the ideal i.e. following the Sunnah, but would you rely on that? I agree we should honour them but I'm sorry it fills me with pride at how hard our men fought in the greatest fields of battle in history, regardless of what flag they fought for, because the ends justified the means. 
Without them there would have been no Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dubious

313ghazi said:


> The Chinese call thier time of colonisation the century of shame.


I am not sure if all Chinese do that...Japanese do that for their take in WW HOWEVER, put up 1 statue of comfort woman and then see their reactions!



313ghazi said:


> If we acknowledged the shame we could them use it as motivation, unfortunately we're too arrogant to see the defeats of the past for what they were.


There is actually no shame in surviving!



313ghazi said:


> Man lives and dies by his mistakes. Had we followed the sunna and each man maintained physical preperation and equipment for jihad, then maybe they would have had a better option.


We were living under Hindus! Did you somehow forgot history?



313ghazi said:


> However let's not glorify the hodge podge of mistakes that was our colonial past.


People the thread is to appreciate a whole village that sent EVERY of their men (MOST maybe) for war!


----------



## 313ghazi

Dubious said:


> People the thread is to appreciate a whole village that sent EVERY of their men (MOST maybe) for war!



You're right, we shouldn't derail it. Its easy to talk today with a nation to call home. These men were not alive to fight the battles when home was lost (fall of the mug hals) but they fought the battles to preserve it when it was reclaimed.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dubious

waz said:


> We can all say about the ideal i.e. following the Sunnah, but would you rely on that? I agree we should honour them but I'm sorry it fills me with pride at how hard our men fought in the greatest fields of battle in history, regardless of what flag they fought for, because the ends justified the means.
> Without them there would have been no Pakistan.


Bro how did we get derailed?  Thread is about a village and their proud ancestors! My people! I dont care what foreigners (British Pakistanis) think or want to think! 

@313ghazi @jamal18 
I am sorry, but one sitting in UK enjoying welfare state with laws cant talk about my land and about a time that he never saw or heard about!

Let alone about struggling families! Leave them to be happy about something! if it pride of being a brave soldier....so be it!

As for who they fought...THAT is not in our hands nor was in theirs! People can NOW sit and dictate what is "right" and "wrong" back then it was survival and that training and pride till date resonates that village kindly stop trying to take the little happiness from people like a bully!



313ghazi said:


> You're right, we shouldn't derail it. Its easy to talk today with a nation to call home. These men were not alive to fight the battles when home was lost (fall of the mug hals) but they fought the battles to preserve it when it was reclaimed.


Ok you said it better 



Dubious said:


> @WebMaster @waz @The Eagle @Horus merge my thread with : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dulmial-pakistan-the-village-with-the-gun.424389/


@waz bro kindly merge this thread with https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dulmial-pakistan-the-village-with-the-gun.424389/

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dubious

Dubious said:


> @WebMaster @waz @The Eagle @Horus merge my thread with : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dulmial-pakistan-the-village-with-the-gun.424389/


 Yaar merge kerdo thread nu with: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dulmial-pakistan-the-village-with-the-gun.424389/


----------



## xyxmt

maximuswarrior said:


> We need to stop being proud of such shit. This wasn't out war and we merely got dragged into it.



It is part of our history, it happened and it must be remembered.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## maximuswarrior

xyxmt said:


> It is part of our history, it happened and it must be remembered.



Yeah remembered and repulsed. We are not going to act like Indians and take pride in being a white man's cannon fodder.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Aamir Hussain

maximuswarrior said:


> We need to stop being proud of such shit. This wasn't out war and we merely got dragged into it.



What ever the politics maybe, we are celebrating the deeds of individuals. No politics today or then can take the pride and courage of service away from an individual. We should celebrate the bravery, courage and sacrifice of the individual soldier....that is what we are doing here.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Sine Nomine

waz said:


> Anyway the bottom line is that had our men not served Pakistan would have never happened.


Kuch ziyda hou giya hai


----------



## TMA

313ghazi said:


> Not only fighting for the country who was occupying thier country, but was also fighting the Khalifa of the Muslims.
> 
> Anything for a penny though. They might be heroes to those they left behind but I have no respect for them.


Whilst I can understand why they fought for the British Empire, I cannot celebrate it. Just listening to that video clip by Dr Israr about how it was mainly recruits from Punjab and NWF that joined the British and fought to conquer Jerusalem and fought to reconquer Delhi in 1857, makes my heart sorrowful.

Of course one ought to be respectful of them (those who were killed) and one ought to study the causes for their joining, but I would never celebrate their decision. Why did not Sindhis join? Was Sindh a richer province than Punjab?



waz said:


> Some posters really need to look into history here!!
> Just where do you think the Pakistani army came from, thin air! The men who put together the Pakistani army at the birth of the nation *ALL * served in the British Indian Army. Pakistan was one of the very countries that at its birth, it had a large standing army ready to serve and protect it.
> The men who served learned invaluable skills on the battlefield, including command and control structures, army logistics, infantry/armoured manoeuvres, operation and maintenance of field equipment and weapons and I can go on for ages.
> They also had also tested their skills in live combat against two of the most formidable enemies the world has known i.e. the Japanese Imperial Army and the German Wehrmacht. It's with these skills they came to secure the freedom of Pakistan, the Empire knew this at the time and so did the founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and they left. Jinnah (May Allah's mercy be upon him) played our hand and supported the war;
> 
> *The Muslim League Leaders fully exploited the war situation. Under encouragement during the war crisis Mr. Jinnah by making profound promises of Muslim aid in the war effort,
> 
> Addressing to the 31st session of the Muslim League at Karachi in December 1943 Jinnah proclaimed: “We have time and again made it clear- we have offered our hand of co-operation for the job or work that Lord Wavell (new Viceroy) wants to do,*
> 
> http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol. 22 Issue7/Version-16/A22070160104.pdf
> 
> So people have an issue with Jinnah(ra)?
> 
> 
> When partition happened Pakistan received its army, an army that was able to;
> -*Help evacuate and resettle partition refugees.
> -Secure Pakistan's borders.
> -Put down rebellions.
> -Provide security on the streets in the absence of a police force.
> -Secure Kashmir.*
> 
> It's that last point regrading securing Kashmir that I will bring in my personal experience. My grandfather (1st Punjab) and my entire elder generation fought in the British Indian Army. It was these men who came back and then destroyed the Dogra army occupying Azad Kashmir and then charged towards Srinager, and contrary to the myth that is still put out here, *no the tribal folk did not free Azad Kashmir*, it was cleared out by the AKRF, as it was known back then. The tribals joined the fight when what is now Indian occupied Kashmir was attacked.
> 
> Let's just say that the people calling for Pakistan just sat back and decided not to be 'slaves' or any other stupid term you want to use, been right good little babus and listened to what Congress said and boycotted the war and kept our men at home. Do you honestly think there would have been a Pakistan? *The Indian army would have steam rolled what is now Pakistan Punjab, Sind , Azad Kashmir and might have come stuck in Balochistan and of course Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which they would then occupy.* They would have burned every village, town, city. Massacred anyone that called for Pakistan and indulged in mass rape of all our women.
> 
> Oh this might not have happened? I beg you tell me, just how would they have been stopped? They would have had a professional, battle hardened army, where at most Pakistan's people would face them with militias.
> 
> Look what happened to Hyderabad, they wanted Pakistan and they were invaded, heck they even had an armed force, which being weak was pushed aside. So what followed? Massacres of civilians, including children. Burning of mosques, the mass rape of women, some Indian army troops took several Muslim women each night to 'entertain' them. Read it up.
> 
> Anyway the bottom line is that had our men not served Pakistan would have never happened. I can't think of any occasion where the old saying that 'each cloud has a silver lining' is more appropriate than in this situation.
> Allah bless the veterans of the Second World War, our elders and the protectors of Pakistan.
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER
> @Irfan Baloch


Yes you are correct, *but there would be no need for Pakistan if there was no British India. (Also no Republic of India {Bharat) either)*



New World said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


 Some Pakistanis will not like what Dr Israr says about these men. But he speaks the truth.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## New World

TMA said:


> Some Pakistanis will not like what Dr Israr says about these men. But he speaks the truth.


and this is what Allah and his Messanger(SAWW) said, Say the truth even if it is against you.


----------



## Signalian

Dubious said:


> *The Pakistan village that sent all of its men to fight in WWI - and was nearly airbrushed out of history*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Officers from the village of Dulmial in Pakistan, who fought alongside the British in the First World War CREDIT: ANDREW FOX/ANDREW FOX
> 
> Joe Shute
> 25 OCTOBER 2018 • 6:40AM
> 
> 
> Dr Irfan Malik was just five years-old when he left his native Nottingham to visit his ancestral village of Dulmial in Pakistan. Aside from the heat and the dust and privations of this small agricultural village in the Salt Range Region of the Punjab 100 miles south of Islamabad, one particular detail registered in his young mind: a 12lb British cannon, mounted on a marble plinth ‘in recognition of services rendered by all ranks from this village’ during the First World War.
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/...sent-men-fight-wwi-nearly-airbrushed-history/
> 
> 
> Cant get the rest of the story...Anybody?



My village



waz said:


> Some posters really need to look into history here!!
> Just where do you think the Pakistani army came from, thin air! The men who put together the Pakistani army at the birth of the nation *ALL * served in the British Indian Army. Pakistan was one of the very countries that at its birth, it had a large standing army ready to serve and protect it.
> The men who served learned invaluable skills on the battlefield, including command and control structures, army logistics, infantry/armoured manoeuvres, operation and maintenance of field equipment and weapons and I can go on for ages.
> They also had also tested their skills in live combat against two of the most formidable enemies the world has known i.e. the Japanese Imperial Army and the German Wehrmacht. It's with these skills they came to secure the freedom of Pakistan, the Empire knew this at the time and so did the founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and they left. Jinnah (May Allah's mercy be upon him) played our hand and supported the war;
> 
> *The Muslim League Leaders fully exploited the war situation. Under encouragement during the war crisis Mr. Jinnah by making profound promises of Muslim aid in the war effort,
> 
> Addressing to the 31st session of the Muslim League at Karachi in December 1943 Jinnah proclaimed: “We have time and again made it clear- we have offered our hand of co-operation for the job or work that Lord Wavell (new Viceroy) wants to do,*
> 
> http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol. 22 Issue7/Version-16/A22070160104.pdf
> 
> So people have an issue with Jinnah(ra)?
> 
> 
> When partition happened Pakistan received its army, an army that was able to;
> -*Help evacuate and resettle partition refugees.
> -Secure Pakistan's borders.
> -Put down rebellions.
> -Provide security on the streets in the absence of a police force.
> -Secure Kashmir.*
> 
> It's that last point regrading securing Kashmir that I will bring in my personal experience. My grandfather (1st Punjab) and my entire elder generation fought in the British Indian Army. It was these men who came back and then destroyed the Dogra army occupying Azad Kashmir and then charged towards Srinager, and contrary to the myth that is still put out here, *no the tribal folk did not free Azad Kashmir*, it was cleared out by the AKRF, as it was known back then. The tribals joined the fight when what is now Indian occupied Kashmir was attacked.
> 
> Let's just say that the people calling for Pakistan just sat back and decided not to be 'slaves' or any other stupid term you want to use, been right good little babus and listened to what Congress said and boycotted the war and kept our men at home. Do you honestly think there would have been a Pakistan? *The Indian army would have steam rolled what is now Pakistan Punjab, Sind , Azad Kashmir and might have come stuck in Balochistan and of course Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which they would then occupy.* They would have burned every village, town, city. Massacred anyone that called for Pakistan and indulged in mass rape of all our women.
> 
> Oh this might not have happened? I beg you tell me, just how would they have been stopped? They would have had a professional, battle hardened army, where at most Pakistan's people would face them with militias.
> 
> Look what happened to Hyderabad, they wanted Pakistan and they were invaded, heck they even had an armed force, which being weak was pushed aside. So what followed? Massacres of civilians, including children. Burning of mosques, the mass rape of women, some Indian army troops took several Muslim women each night to 'entertain' them. Read it up.
> 
> Anyway the bottom line is that had our men not served Pakistan would have never happened. I can't think of any occasion where the old saying that 'each cloud has a silver lining' is more appropriate than in this situation.
> Allah bless the veterans of the Second World War, our elders and the protectors of Pakistan.
> 
> @DESERT FIGHTER
> @Irfan Baloch


My village, Dulmial, provided Military officers and soldiers in all wars that Pakistan fought against enemies.



Aamir Hussain said:


> What ever the politics maybe, we are celebrating the deeds of individuals. No politics today or then can take the pride and courage of service away from an individual. We should celebrate the bravery, courage and sacrifice of the individual soldier....that is what we are doing here.



I am disappointed that my elders asked for a Gun instead of a University.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Pak_88

@jamal18, @313ghazi 

It is very easy for those in faraway lands to take the higher moral position and criticise those who fought in the British Indian Army - and bloody hell, I can understand their sentiments! However, I must urge them to remember that hindsight is always 20/20.

India would have been RAZED to the ground had the Japs come.
As regards the British colonising India, I can say only this: the Mughals were in decline. The once great empire was being eaten away. The aam aadmi, as it were, languished in the streets, while the baadshaah drowned in his own excess, lest we romanticise the life of the average Indian in the 18th century. The Mahrattas and the Sikhs were ruling over the Muslims soon thereafter, if not already.

The fact remains, as @waz pointed out, we would have been overrun by the Indian army.
The Quaid was a proponent for helping the war effort - bloody hell, he was instrumental in any degree of Indianisation of the army.
It's very easy to romanticise the idea of preparing for "jihad" whilst sitting comfortably in your flat in leafy old England, but how prepared are you right now for jihad? Battle experience and training in a professional army can never be substituted by running a couple of miles and shooting a hunting rifle, and calling it "training for jihad".

I have the utmost regard for my Turkish fellows, and I don't wish to hurt their sentiments, however, I must ask: on what grounds could the Ottoman caliph claim legitimacy over being the leader of all Muslims? Simply due to holding the title of "caliph"? Look at the extravagance of the Dolmabahce palace, for God's sake! He emptied the public purse for constructing that flamboyant den of excess. Ataturk may be criticised for many things, but taking down the ineffective "caliphate" isn't one of them, at least in my humble opinion, though, of course, that remains a topic for a different thread altogether.

O' ye men, who've never heard a shot fired in anger, kindly refrain from being so damned self righteous.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## waz

TMA said:


> Yes you are correct, *but there would be no need for Pakistan if there was no British India. (Also no Republic of India {Bharat) either)*



But British India happened....
As for Dr Israr, yes he's right regarding those particular episodes in history, but doesn't doesn't look at the strategic picture which emerged far later on.



Pak_88 said:


> It is very easy for those in faraway lands to take the higher moral position and criticise those who fought in the British Indian Army - and bloody hell, I can understand their sentiments! However, I must urge them to remember that hindsight is always 20/20.
> 
> India would have been RAZED to the ground had the Japs come.
> As regards the British colonising India, I can say only this: the Mughals were in decline. The once great empire was being eaten away. The aam aadmi, as it were, languished in the streets, while the baadshaah drowned in his own excess, lest we romanticise the life of the average Indian in the 18th century. The Mahrattas and the Sikhs were ruling over the Muslims soon thereafter, if not already.
> 
> The fact remains, as @waz pointed out, we would have been overrun by the Indian army.
> The Quaid was a proponent for helping the war effort - bloody hell, he was instrumental in any degree of Indianisation of the army.
> It's very easy to romanticise the idea of preparing for "jihad" whilst sitting comfortably in your flat in leafy old England, but how prepared are you right now for jihad? Battle experience and training in a professional army can never be substituted by running a couple of miles and shooting a hunting rifle, and calling it "training for jihad".
> 
> I have the utmost regard for my Turkish fellows, and I don't wish to hurt their sentiments, however, I must ask: on what grounds could the Ottoman caliph claim legitimacy over being the leader of all Muslims? Simply due to holding the title of "caliph"? Look at the extravagance of the Dolmabahce palace, for God's sake! He emptied the public purse for constructing that flamboyant den of excess. Ataturk may be criticised for many things, but taking down the ineffective "caliphate" isn't one of them, at least in my humble opinion, though, of course, that remains a topic for a different thread altogether.
> 
> O' ye men, who've never heard a shot fired in anger, kindly refrain from being so damned self righteous.



Well said bro.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## maximuswarrior

Aamir Hussain said:


> What ever the politics maybe, we are celebrating the deeds of individuals. No politics today or then can take the pride and courage of service away from an individual. We should celebrate the bravery, courage and sacrifice of the individual soldier....that is what we are doing here.



Surely. We will celebrate the fact that our people fought like lions. I won't celebrate the fact that they were fighting another man's war.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TMA

waz said:


> But British India happened....
> As for Dr Israr, yes he's right regarding those particular episodes in history, but doesn't doesn't look at the strategic picture which emerged far later on.
> 
> 
> 
> Well said bro.


You are right...but what I am trying to get across is that we should NOT BE proud of this part of our history. It was out of desperation that these men fought. Sure, learn from this history but celebrate it not.

It is like a man who due to desperation has to feed his children haram food....surely his children or grandchildren would not be “proud” of this part of their family history.

So many Pakistanis especially in the UK become "proud" that coterminous Pakistanis fought for the British Empire. Do they not know that they were desperate people who were physically colonised by a tyrant? 

Also Dr Israr raised a very important question: How come Sindhis did not feature so much in the British Indian Army? Was it really a case that the Sindhis were not a “martial” race or that they were on average wealthier than their Punjabi brothers???

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pak_88

TMA said:


> Also Dr Israr raised a very important question: How come Sindhis did not feature so much in the British Indian Army? Was it really a case that the Sindhis were not a “martial” race or that they were on average wealthier than their Punjabi brothers???


The same reason Bengalis never joined. The same reason Memons didn't join. The same reason only 5 recruiting districts existed in the whole of the subcontinent.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TMA

Pak_88 said:


> The same reason Bengalis never joined. The same reason Memons didn't join. The same reason only 5 recruiting districts existed in the whole of the subcontinent.


So Bengalis did join, pre 1857 in the East India Company Army, and indeed they made up the bulk of that army. This policy was abandoned as a lot of them were involved in the “mutiny”.

But notwithstanding that, what is the reason?


----------



## waz

TMA said:


> You are right...but what I am trying to get across is that we should NOT BE proud of this part of our history. It was out of desperation that these men fought. Sure, learn from this history but celebrate it not.
> 
> It is like a man who due to desperation has to feed his children haram food....surely his children or grandchildren would not be “proud” of this part of their family history.
> 
> So many Pakistanis especially in the UK become "proud" that coterminous Pakistanis fought for the British Empire. Do they not know that they were desperate people who were physically colonised by a tyrant?
> 
> Also Dr Israr raised a very important question: How come Sindhis did not feature so much in the British Indian Army? Was it really a case that the Sindhis were not a “martial” race or that they were on average wealthier than their Punjabi brothers???



Fair enough it can be debated about where the line is for honour/respect and when we reach into celebration. As for those who celebrate their valour for being part of the empire, there are many reasons people could be doing this and it still just comes down to opinion, there is no wrong or right here. One side has that they fought for a colonial occupier, the other that they fought against two terrible evils (Nazis and Imperial Japan) and with their skills went onto secure Pakistan.
As for Dr Israr his speech lacked complete tactical oversight and someone should have asked him who would have aided Pakistan militarily when the time came, the Islamic army of Sindh? No one that's the answer.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pak_88

TMA said:


> So Bengalis did join, pre 1857 in the East India Company Army, and indeed they made up the bulk of that army. This policy was abandoned as a lot of them were involved in the “mutiny”.
> 
> But notwithstanding that, what is the reason?


True, and the Bengal Army was larger than the other two Presidency Armies by a substantial amount, if I'm not mistaken. There was no single body known as the "Indian Army" prior to 1895. 

The recruitment of Bengalis was limited due to them being labelled as a 'non-martial race' in the aftermath of 1857. This was primarily due to:
1. Want of soldierly loyalty (read unquestionable obedience) - they were viewed with a great deal of suspicion, but they weren't alone. The same happened with Hindus from central India.
2. Them growing softer as time went on (in terms of physical soldierly ability) - I shan't digress too much, but most of the fighting was happening on the frontier, and there were fewer chances of these soldiers seeing much action, especially through the later part of the 19th century. Again, they weren't alone; large parts of the Madras Army were disbanded, and few units remain, due to long periods of inactivity in the relatively tranquil south of India.

Had it not been for WWII, the martial races theory would have continued (and we wouldn't have the SSG today, mind you!).

The War opened doors for countless people as the British government tried desperately to boost recruitment for the war effort.

As a result of limited recruitment, prestige in the profession of arms amongst the Bengali populace fell (which, of course, had serious repercussions following independence). If we are to move to the era post independence, the Pakistan Army wasn't biased against the Bengalis in terms of recruitment and selection - it was simply the fact that soldiering didn't hold the same prestige for the people of Chittagong as it did for Chakwal. In fact, in terms of officer selection, Bengali candidates had higher rates of acceptance in the ISSB. Yet, they still croaked. This is something we see today as well - the Army is trying to boost recruitment of Baluchis and Sindis, by passing incentives such as relaxed standards (physical and educational) and extra marks due to belonging to an underdeveloped area in rural Baluchistan (or, indeed, Sind), so that propaganda peddlers with less than holy motives can be quietened to some degree. To this day, Sindis and Baluchis barely join up.



waz said:


> The Islamic army of Sindh? No one that's the answer.


Ha! The same (non-existent) Army which forms an integral core of the Pakistan Army today.


If any imbecile wishes to label the Army as a Punjabi or Pathan Army, then there's a damned good reason for it. The reason in question being that, to this day, it is the Pathans and the Punjabis who join up in droves. It is not due to some inherent bias or prejudice on part of the Army. 

And before anyone says anything, I have this on good authority with my two of my best friends (one from Dadu and the other from Mehar, both of whom happen to be sons of officers), and you'd be surprised at the stories they tell you about the perception of soldiering and joining the Army in interior Sind.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## doorstar

jamal18 said:


> Er.. they went to fight for an enemy occupying their country..?


an enemy who united a warring hindustan into one unit, an enemy on whos scraps you are still surviving by moving to that enemy's country? an enemy who rescued punjab mosques from becomig gurdwaras and stables? an enemy who created Pakistan, an enemy who tried and almost succeeded in liberating kashmir? hypocracy thy name is ignorant ingrates and scroungers!


----------



## TMA

Pak_88 said:


> True, and the Bengal Army was larger than the other two Presidency Armies by a substantial amount, if I'm not mistaken. There was no single body known as the "Indian Army" prior to 1895.
> 
> The recruitment of Bengalis was limited due to them being labelled as a 'non-martial race' in the aftermath of 1857. This was primarily due to:
> 1. Want of soldierly loyalty (read unquestionable obedience) - they were viewed with a great deal of suspicion, but they weren't alone. The same happened with Hindus from central India.
> 2. Them growing softer as time went on (in terms of physical soldierly ability) - I shan't digress too much, but most of the fighting was happening on the frontier, and there were fewer chances of these soldiers seeing much action, especially through the later part of the 19th century. Again, they weren't alone; large parts of the Madras Army were disbanded, and few units remain, due to long periods of inactivity in the relatively tranquil south of India.
> 
> Had it not been for WWII, the martial races theory would have continued (and we wouldn't have the SSG today, mind you!).
> 
> The War opened doors for countless people as the British government tried desperately to boost recruitment for the war effort.
> 
> As a result of limited recruitment, prestige in the profession of arms amongst the Bengali populace fell (which, of course, had serious repercussions following independence). If we are to move to the era post independence, the Pakistan Army wasn't biased against the Bengalis in terms of recruitment and selection - it was simply the fact that soldiering didn't hold the same prestige for the people of Chittagong as it did for Chakwal. In fact, in terms of officer selection, Bengali candidates had higher rates of acceptance in the ISSB. Yet, they still croaked. This is something we see today as well - the Army is trying to boost recruitment of Baluchis and Sindis, by passing incentives such as relaxed standards (physical and educational) and extra marks due to belonging to an underdeveloped area in rural Baluchistan (or, indeed, Sind), so that propaganda peddlers with less than holy motives can be quietened to some degree. To this day, Sindis and Baluchis barely join up.
> 
> 
> Ha! The same (non-existent) Army which forms an integral core of the Pakistan Army today.
> 
> 
> If any imbecile wishes to label the Army as a Punjabi or Pathan Army, then there's a damned good reason for it. The reason in question being that, to this day, it is the Pathans and the Punjabis who join up in droves. It is not due to some inherent bias or prejudice on part of the Army.
> 
> And before anyone says anything, I have this on good authority with my two of my best friends (one from Dadu and the other from Mehar, both of whom happen to be sons of officers), and you'd be surprised at the stories they tell you about the perception of soldiering and joining the Army in interior Sind.


Or perhaps the Sindhis and Baluch did not like being soldiers in a colonisers army as much as Pukhtoons or Punjabis...perhaps they did not like serving their master as much as others? Perhaps there is this psychological element to it....at least they are not “proud” of the history of servitude.

About them not joining Pakistan military so much, perhaps its because they don’t see themselves as Pakistani, at least Pakistani first. And this is a problem. Although getting better... 

They were more resistant at least psychologically to British India than their Pukhtoon or Punjabis who were “proudly”working in the stables of their colonial master.

As Malcolm X has said the “field negro” hates the “house negro” more than he hates the Master...perhaps Sindhis and Baluch have this resentment towards their Punjabi and Pukhtoon cousins.??

It was and is a revelation to me that so much Pakistanis are actually proud of this fact. Like when I learnt on this forum that Shah Mahmoud Qureshi is proud that his ancestor killed a freedom fighter who was fighting against the British in Punjab!!!
I mean are Afro-Americans proud that there ancestors were brutally yanked from Africa and made slaves... ?


----------



## jamal18

doorstar said:


> an enemy who united a warring hindustan into one unit, an enemy on whos scraps you are still surviving by moving to that enemy's country? an enemy who rescued punjab mosques from becomig gurdwaras and stables? an enemy who created Pakistan, an enemy who tried and almost succeeded in liberating kashmir? hypocracy thy name is ignorant ingrates and scroungers!



Oh sorry, you think the entire empire was an exercise in philanthropy? Britain would not be what it is without the economic benefit of controlling all of India. People are poor in India because the industrialisation that took place in Britain was by plundering Indian markets. Britain would have the gnp of Iceland and the income level of Bulgaria without India.

Yes, before Britain got there the standard of living in India was higher than Britain, when it left it was 20 times lower.
Yes, the one's that starved to death 6 million Indians in the Bengal famine, and many before that because the land used for food was used to grow opium for the Chinese.

Britain created Pakistan?  Bud, you want to get off those tablets! It was Jinnah and the Muslim league who did that.

And as for me surviving of your scraps, you've had enough benefits out of us, we return the favour. The difference is that we work for a living.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------

