# Revenge by Pakistani Pashtuns: Private war breaks out on Pak-Afghan border



## haviZsultan

Arranged attacks: Private war breaks out on Pak-Afghan border

LANDIKOTAL: 
*
At least 29 Afghans were thrashed and their travel documents torn near the Torkham border on Thursday, apparently in retaliation to a similar attack on Pakistani workers by Afghan officials last week.

Officials said that the attackers included relatives of the 29 Pakistani labourers who were allegedly harassed by members of the Afghan National Army (ANA) at Pul-e-Charkhi area of Kabul on Friday. Following this incident, Pakistani authorities had closed the border for six hours on Saturday.
*
Assistant Political Agent (APA) Landikotal Subdivision of Khyber Agency, Khalid Mumtaz Kundi, told journalists that more than 30 people gathered at Kaglech Turn near Torkham Pak-Afghan border and blocked the highway on Thursday morning.
*
They stopped every vehicle and searched for Afghan nationals and finally when they found their tally of 29 Afghans, they attacked them, tore their travel documents and took away cash and cell phones, he said.
*
Kundi said that Khasadar personnel rushed to the site to reopen the highway and arrested the culprits, but the attackers opened fire, *injuring two Khasadars. Five of the assailants were arrested while a search for the rest was ongoing.* Note:chivalry of Pakistani/ true or lar Pashtuns unlike those from across the border

According to Mairaj Khan, an official of the political administration at Torkham border, the harassed Afghan nationals crossed the border and told their authorities about the incident.
*
Most of the attackers were family members of the Pakistani labours and residents of Landikotal who were attacked in Kabul, an official of the Khasadar force said.*

Published in The Express Tribune, December 28th, 2012.

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## Don Jaguar

Sher Malang and Monkey D Luffy are invited in this thread.

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## Spring Onion

That was unfortunate. The thread should be merged with that thread about Pakistanis tortured by Afghan border army.

This proves that farsiwan ANA has atlast succeeded in pitching Pukhtuns against each other.

time for bar shar lar bar Pukhtuns in Afghanistan to get their heads examined and kick these farsiwans to save their culture

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## Don Jaguar

29 beaten up.

Very calculated revenge. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...g-protest-afghan-govt-torture-pakistanis.html

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## Paan Singh

i have a question ..


how much pak afghan border is guarded with soldiers and how much is opened?


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## Spring Onion

Paan Singh said:


> i have a question ..
> 
> 
> how much pak afghan border is guarded with soldiers and how much is opened?



all of it guraded/ all of it opened.

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## haviZsultan

Don Jaguar said:


> Sher Malang and Monkey D Luffy are invited in this thread.



Oh yeah... I was about to do that.  @Sher Malang and @Monkey D Luffy. You are invited.

By the way I am not celebrating... just saying that this is a very cowardly attack. However the khasadars risked their lives to save Afghan nationals (bar Pashtuns) even got hurt in the process but when recently bar Pashtuns decided to thrash innocent drivers and shot dead two innocent truck drivers (who were both lar Pashtuns by the way) not a single Afghan (nation) came to their aid. Proves that Amir Abdur Rehman Khan lives on in every Afghan (nation) and his supporter today. Luffy can go to Afghanistan tommorow to express sympathy for the Afghan (nation) but they have been shooting lar pashtuns left and right. I hope Luffy doesn't get caught in a cross-fire or if nothing else mauled by a snow leopard though there is a possibility of stepping upon a mine. 

BTW if Luffy decided to look in a mirror the resemblance would be so striking he could pass off as his reincarnation... even call himself his long lost son. Luffy did you check if the Afghan government has a reward for having a countenance like Amir Abdur Rehman Khan.

Btw the question does arise? Does Luffy know anything about FATA. Everyone seems to hates Afghans (nation)

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## Don Jaguar

Paan Singh said:


> i have a question ..
> 
> 
> how much pak afghan border is guarded with soldiers and how much is opened?



Now almost all.

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## Spring Onion

haviZsultan said:


> Oh yeah... I was about to do that.  @Sher Malang and @Monkey D Luffy. You are invited.
> 
> By the way I am not celebrating... just saying that this is a very cowardly attack. However the khasadars risked their lives to save Afghan nationals (bar Pashtuns) even got hurt in the process but when recently bar Pashtuns decided to thrash innocent drivers and shot dead two innocent truck drivers (who were both lar Pashtuns by the way) not a single Afghan (nation) came to their aid. Proves that Amir Abdur Rehman Khan lives on in every Afghan (nation) and his supporter today. Luffy can go to Afghanistan tommorow to express sympathy for the Afghan (nation) but they have been shooting lar pashtuns left and right. I hope Luffy doesn't get caught in a cross-fire or if nothing else mauled by a snow leopard though there is a possibility of stepping upon a mine.
> 
> BTW if Luffy decided to look in a mirror the resemblance would be so striking he could pass off as his reincarnation... even call himself his long lost son. Luffy did you check if the Afghan government has a reward for having a countenance like Amir Abdur Rehman Khan.
> 
> Btw the question does arise? Does Luffy know anything about FATA. Everyone seems to hates Afghans (nation)



leave them sir. 

the farsiwan ANA will keep inflicting damages on lar bar Pukhtuns thats what should worry these two people but that is not that case which clearly shows that grapes are sour for them on both sides.

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## Don Jaguar

Andromache said:


> leave them sir.
> 
> the farsiwan ANA will keep inflicting damages on lar bar Pukhtuns thats what should worry these two people but that is not that case which clearly shows that grapes are sour for them on both sides.



Is the ANA tajik?


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## Spring Onion

Don Jaguar said:


> Is the ANA tajik?



tajik hazararas uzbk whoever but indeed Pukhtuns have not due representation.


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## Srinivas

* Cleaver move by PA to stop the pashtuns on both sides getting united. *

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## Sher Malang

Andromache said:


> tajik hazararas uzbk whoever but indeed Pukhtuns have not due representation.



Pashtuns Tajiks Uzbeks Hazaras are all Afghan! ANA's whole structure is Afghanised not Pashtunised, Tajikised, Hazarised or etc.. your ***** will not inflame Afghans from within again, watch your back for daily separatist movements Pakistan will soon be liberated from Punjabi dominated government.

Gift for you:





_Hazara boy: Hazara, Awghu(Pashtun), Tajik, Uzbek all are brothers_

@ topic:

*Afghanistan condemn torture of Pakistani nationals*

Afghan foreign ministry strongly condemned torture of Pakistani nationals by Afghan security forces.

*Foreign ministry spokesman Janan Mosazai said Afghan govermnent has launched probe in this regard and the insisted that the government is committed for the security of Pakistani citizens in Afghanistan.*

He also said that the Afghan Charge D&#8217;Affaires has met with the Pakistani officials in this regard.

Pakistani security officials on Saturday sealed the Torkham border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, in response to the torture on Pakistani labourers by Afghan security personnel.

A Foreign Office spokesman said that Pakistan has taken serious note of Afghan soldiers&#8217; beating up of the Pakistanis despite their having valid travel documents and summoned the Afghan Charge d&#8217; Affaires to foreign ministry in the morning and lodged a strong protest, seeking an investigation into the incident and action against those responsible.

A similar protest was lodged by the Pakistan Ambassador in Kabul with the Afghan government.

The labourers told that they had travelled to Afghanistan for work but the company concerned refused to pay their wages. They added they had also been locked up in Afghanistan&#8217;s Pul-i-Charkhi prison where they were tortured by jail authorities. And when they were returning, Afghan forces allegedly tore their Pakistani passports, snatched their money and beat up them brutally.

---------


Today's news only proves that ANSF was right in torturing those Pakistanis when those Pakistanis have armed men on the other side of border! this only means those tortured Pakistanis were not innocent.

And LOL @ their type of revenge looting innocent passengers? it shows the economical state of the people of Pakistan.



sukhoi_30MKI said:


> * Cleaver move by PA to stop the pashtuns on both sides getting united. *



And their puppets in this website!

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Revenge by Pak pakhtuns? Nope it was not, it was retailation by family members of those who were beaten in Afghanistan. It is similar to the case when relatives of a patient attacks doctors for "ghaflat".


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## haviZsultan

Andromache said:


> That was unfortunate. The thread should be merged with that thread about Pakistanis tortured by Afghan border army.
> 
> This proves that farsiwan ANA has atlast succeeded in pitching Pukhtuns against each other.
> 
> time for bar shar lar bar Pukhtuns in Afghanistan to get their heads examined and kick these farsiwans to save their culture



Why would they do that? Look you have to understand their situation. According to them we have taken their dhoti. Pakhtunkhwa and balochistan belongs to them. They believe our land is their dhoti which can be taken at any time anyone pleases. 

According to them we Pakistani's as a whole have taken their dhoti and we lar Pashtuns are somehow responsible as we have gained ownership of it, put it in our cupboard while we are happily sitting in Kameez partogh with large lungee/pagree on our heads, it's ends set in elegant twirls sipping quality tea with Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch brothers. Now they want the dhoti back. 

You have to understand.... they aren't even talking about abandoning the Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks or northern lands which lets say are their banyayn. But they want that Lungee pretty bad... no one likes going around with his lulla hanging around even if his chest is bare... 

We Pakistani Pashtuns say fine... you are so dedicated to Pashtuns... then show some loyalty to Pashtuns. Abandon the Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks (the banyayn), show some comitment to the Pashtun cause. But the Afghans believe they will be &#1604;&#1608;&#1669; without it. 

On the other forum by the way it is the bar Pashtuns calling Pakistani Pashtuns things like Pangchuk, Punjabi slave, ****, Jinnah's rat and other things I would prefer not to mention, especially if they happened to be supportive of Pakistan. This is why I have become hostile to Afghans. I have for years been a nationalist and that was much before I adopted the Pashtun cause.

We always suggested unity for language and promotion of culture... even the idea that pakhtunkhwa is theirs and Afghanistan ours.... but they believe our land is theirs in a totally other sense, meaning Afghanistan has to exercise full control over it, in other words grab all lands up to the Indus. That is what patriotic lar Pashtuns will never accept. And this is the entire issue between Pakistan and Afghanistan... Pakistani's generally know nothing about Afghanistan and just how far they have taken the Durand line thing to a point where they may hate us forever. We lost bangladesh in 71 and we don't cry half as much... meaning (which also shows our beghairati!  ) we don't care about it anymore. This is not true for Afghanistan.

And its they who want to pitch Pashtuns against each other themselves, either we accept that our land belongs to them or we become an enemy. There was no Tajik, Uzbek or Hazara on the forum. Those vicious animals (Tajik, Hazara and Uzbek) however are very aggressive towards Pashtuns, quite true. Still the bar Pashtuns don't want to abandon them despite their belief in lar aw bar yaw afghan/pashtun. 

Its a silly policy to have and proves the loy Afghanistan theory has no head, no feet... they've just made it a dhoti issue. It is at the root of the attacks on Bajaur 2 months ago which investigators are claiming were clearly ANA not the Taliban on account of their training, the raids on lower Dir, the attack in Kalash that stole cattle and the recent events. 

Pakistan has to find a policy in Afghanistan because if an anti-Pakistani setup remains there we are surrounded both in the east and the west. In retrospect seems like a foolish move to mistreat lar Pashtuns as we could have sympathized with them, though I don't believe we should just because of ethnicity-they never cared about us. But the Afghans have stopped thinking. They gave control of thinking and foreign policy to Britian, Russia and then US successively. Then they claim they were never conquered. True, when we lar Pashtuns were around. But after 1983 they have shown their disgraceful faces constantly being controlled by foreign powers, whether they believe this to be a truth or not.

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## xyxmt

haviZsultan said:


> Arranged attacks: Private war breaks out on Pak-Afghan border
> 
> LANDIKOTAL:
> *
> At least 29 Afghans were thrashed and their travel documents torn near the Torkham border on Thursday, apparently in retaliation to a similar attack on Pakistani workers by Afghan officials last week.
> 
> Officials said that the attackers included relatives of the 29 Pakistani labourers who were allegedly harassed by members of the Afghan National Army (ANA) at Pul-e-Charkhi area of Kabul on Friday. Following this incident, Pakistani authorities had closed the border for six hours on Saturday.
> *
> Assistant Political Agent (APA) Landikotal Subdivision of Khyber Agency, Khalid Mumtaz Kundi, told journalists that more than 30 people gathered at Kaglech Turn near Torkham Pak-Afghan border and blocked the highway on Thursday morning.
> *
> They stopped every vehicle and searched for Afghan nationals and finally when they found their tally of 29 Afghans, they attacked them, tore their travel documents and took away cash and cell phones, he said.
> *
> Kundi said that Khasadar personnel rushed to the site to reopen the highway and arrested the culprits, but the attackers opened fire, *injuring two Khasadars. Five of the assailants were arrested while a search for the rest was ongoing.* Note:chivalry of Pakistani/ true or lar Pashtuns unlike those from across the border
> 
> According to Mairaj Khan, an official of the political administration at Torkham border, the harassed Afghan nationals crossed the border and told their authorities about the incident.
> *
> &#8220;Most of the attackers were family members of the Pakistani labours and residents of Landikotal who were attacked in Kabul,&#8221; an official of the Khasadar force said.*
> 
> Published in The Express Tribune, December 28th, 2012.



thats how man solve their matters, not just talks
an eye for and eye, not an hair more


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## Spring Onion

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Revenge by Pak pakhtuns? Nope it was not, it was retailation by family members of those who were beaten in Afghanistan. It is similar to the case when relatives of a patient attacks doctors for "ghaflat".



 dahhh and these relatives of Pukhtuns were punjabis right ?

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## Hyperion

Don Jaguar said:


> Is the ANA tajik?



All the chipmunks. Short, ugly, beedy eyes. 

I could probably kill a couple mofos by just sitting on them.


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## Sher Malang

xyxmt said:


> thats how man solve their matters, not just talks
> an eye for and eye, not an hair more



Not like that it was 'Pockets for an eye'


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## Spring Onion

Sher Malang said:


> *Pashtuns Tajiks Uzbeks Hazaras are all Afghan! ANA's whole structure is Afghanised not Pashtunised*, Tajikised, Hazarised or etc.. your ***** will not inflame Afghans from within again, watch your back for daily separatist movements Pakistan will soon be liberated from Punjabi dominated government.
> 
> 
> And their puppets in this website!



 you are calling enslavement of Afghanistani Pukhtuns to Tajik/hazaras and other farsiwan masters as Afghanistanised?

the whole ANA structure is enslavment to farsiwans in Afghanistan.

Wake up shake your Afghanistani Pashtun ghairat and liberate yourself first from farsiwans and then talk about Pakistan.

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## Hyperion

19 months to tango mate -- I'll be coming for a visit to settle some old scores! 




Sher Malang said:


> Not like that it was 'Pockets for an eye'

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## Sher Malang

Andromache said:


> you are calling enslavement of Afghanistani Pukhtuns to Tajik/hazaras and other farsiwan masters as Afghanistanised?
> 
> the whole ANA structure is enslavment to farsiwans in Afghanistan.
> 
> Wake up shake your Afghanistani Pashtun ghairat and liberate yourself first from farsiwans and then talk about Pakistan.



This not going to work here anymore, try something better that was the trend during 90 to 94 not any more it's 2012

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## Spring Onion

haviZsultan said:


> Why would they do that? Look you have to understand their situation. According to them we have taken their dhoti. Pakhtunkhwa and balochistan belongs to them. They believe our land is their dhoti which can be taken at any time anyone pleases.
> 
> According to them we Pakistani's as a whole have taken their dhoti and we lar Pashtuns are somehow responsible as we have gained ownership of it, put it in our cupboard while we are happily sitting in Kameez partogh with large lungee/pagree on our heads, it's ends set in elegant twirls sipping quality tea with Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch brothers. Now they want the dhoti back.
> 
> You have to understand.... they aren't even talking about abandoning the Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks or northern lands which lets say are their banyayn. But they want that Lungee pretty bad... no one likes going around with his lulla hanging around even if his chest is bare...
> 
> We Pakistani Pashtuns say fine... you are so dedicated to Pashtuns... then show some loyalty to Pashtuns. Abandon the Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks (the banyayn), show some comitment to the Pashtun cause. But the Afghans believe they will be &#1604;&#1608;&#1669; without it.
> 
> On the other forum by the way it is the bar Pashtuns calling Pakistani Pashtuns things like Pangchuk, Punjabi slave, ****, Jinnah's rat and other things I would prefer not to mention, especially if they happened to be supportive of Pakistan. This is why I have become hostile to Afghans. I have for years been a nationalist and that was much before I adopted the Pashtun cause.
> 
> We always suggested unity for language and promotion of culture... even the idea that pakhtunkhwa is theirs and Afghanistan ours.... but they believe our land is theirs in a totally other sense, meaning Afghanistan has to exercise full control over it, in other words grab all lands up to the Indus. That is what patriotic lar Pashtuns will never accept. And this is the entire issue between Pakistan and Afghanistan... Pakistani's generally know nothing about Afghanistan and just how far they have taken the Durand line thing to a point where they may hate us forever. We lost bangladesh in 71 and we don't cry half as much... meaning (which also shows our beghairati!  ) we don't care about it anymore. This is not true for Afghanistan.
> 
> And its they who want to pitch Pashtuns against each other themselves, either we accept that our land belongs to them or we become an enemy. There was no Tajik, Uzbek or Hazara on the forum. Those vicious animals (Tajik, Hazara and Uzbek) however are very aggressive towards Pashtuns, quite true. Still the bar Pashtuns don't want to abandon them despite their belief in lar aw bar yaw afghan/pashtun.
> 
> Its a silly policy to have and proves the loy Afghanistan theory has no head, no feet... they've just made it a dhoti issue. It is at the root of the attacks on Bajaur 2 months ago which investigators are claiming were clearly ANA not the Taliban on account of their training, the raids on lower Dir, the attack in Kalash that stole cattle and the recent events.
> 
> Pakistan has to find a policy in Afghanistan because if an anti-Pakistani setup remains there we are surrounded both in the east and the west. In retrospect seems like a foolish move to mistreat lar Pashtuns as we could have sympathized with them, though I don't believe we should just because of ethnicity-they never cared about us. But the Afghans have stopped thinking. They gave control of thinking and foreign policy to Britian, Russia and then US successively. Then they claim they were never conquered. True, when we lar Pashtuns were around. But after 1983 they have shown their disgraceful faces constantly being controlled by foreign powers, whether they believe this to be a truth or not.



Sir i know about the other site.

the issue is that they are themselves enslaves to farsiwans. Look at their language and culture there all carry the halmarks of non-pashtuns in Afghanistan.

The pashtuns are forced to migrate as refugees and margnalised in govt. 

these helpless internet warriors sees no practical solution but to blame us Pakistani Pukhtuns for their enslavement to farsiwans.


Look at his justfication : that ANA composed of all ethniic groups hence its Afghanistanised but when we say the same about our Pakistanised they call us slaves of Punjabis.

lolzz people like sher malangs only want us to fight their war against farsiwans.

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## Hyperion

Hehehehe, exactly our point. At the end of 2014, I guess you'll be up North with your masters (of-course security reasons)?



Sher Malang said:


> This not going to work here anymore, try something better that was the trend during 90 to 94 *not any more it's 2012*

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## Spring Onion

Sher Malang said:


> This not going to work here anymore, try something better that was the trend during 90 to 94 not any more it's 2012



Tell you something that what you are sayiing about us has NOT worked in 47 even so dont try anything better as well it will be thrown back on your face.

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## Sher Malang

Hyperion said:


> Hehehehe, exactly my point. At the end of 2014, I guess you'll be up North with your masters (of-course security reasons)?



Offtopic! there are certainly 10s of threads on that reopen one of them.



Andromache said:


> Tell you something that what you are sayiing about us has NOT worked in 47 even so dont try anything better as well it will be thrown back on your face.



We not try, we do and you loot


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## Spring Onion

Sher Malang said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> We not try, we do and you loot


 can anyone try if he makes any sense?

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## Sher Malang

Anyone in this topic don't quote me for nonsense. I have nothing to say about looters.

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## Hyperion

His grey matter hit a 404. Btw, why do you bother with these two impaired individuals? Aren't 30 million+ of us proof enough, that all is well!



Andromache said:


> can anyone try if he makes any sense?

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Andromache said:


> dahhh and these relatives of Pukhtuns were punjabis right ?



You dont know me andro, you expect me to develop hate for all afghans because of this incident? I am not that kind of person. I dont jump to judge an entire nation or ethnicity because of few people. I have encountered some punjabis on internet who said very foul things about pakhtuns, but i never developed dislike hate for entire punjabis because of those peoples because i have met more good and nice punjabis than few rotten ones, the likes of which are present in every community. But your friend havi is mentally unstable and is on some revenge mission because some afghans on internet didnt appreciate his book and laughed at him. Now he is spreading hate against afghan people and you people are clapping for him.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Hyperion said:


> All the chipmunks. Short, ugly, beedy eyes.
> 
> I could probably kill a couple mofos by just sitting on them.



You are reported for racist remarks. I only warned you back when you called mohajirs of karachi as degenerated race but this time i am reporting you.


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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Revenge by Pak pakhtuns? Nope it was not, it was retailation by family members of those who were beaten in Afghanistan. It is similar to the case when relatives of a patient attacks doctors for "ghaflat".



Luffy comes to save mother-Afghanistan... and his girlfriend. 
Oh the suspense!






Must watch @Andromache, @Armstrong, @Hyperion... 

Have you ever talked to tribals? I can get you in contact with a Maseed. He hates Afghans. lol. 

Another is an Orakzai... female. Professional lawyer. She has roses for sher malang. Afghanistan is very deeply disliked here.

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## Hyperion

Whatever I do is justified. Back then a troll (icefwolf) was making fun of Pashtuns. If it were up to reports, you and the other troll friend of yours would have been kicked back into the arms of your beloved ANA.

I have a life and ultimate pleasures at my disposal, I come to this forum to take care of people such as yourself, to keep things in check.



Monkey D Luffy said:


> You are reported for racist remarks. I only warned you back when you called mohajirs of karachi as degenerated race but this time i am reporting you.

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## haviZsultan

Sher Malang said:


> This not going to work here anymore, try something better that was the trend during 90 to 94 not any more it's 2012



70%+ of the Afghan army is made up of races that are kicking you on the butt, learn something... you can even learn something from your lousy forum. Talk to Khushal and KGOD and ask them how silly this idea of "re-unification" is. No one wants it!

You are the traitors and you are the ones waiting for a spanking on the *** post 2014!

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## Don Jaguar

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> * Cleaver move by PA to stop the pashtuns on both sides getting united. *



Epic fail. 

On torkham border PA soldiers are pashtuns.

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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> You dont know me andro, you expect me to develop hate for all afghans because of this incident? I am not that kind of person. I dont jump to judge an entire nation or ethnicity because of few people. I have encountered some punjabis on internet who said very foul things about pakhtuns, but i never developed dislike hate for entire punjabis because of those peoples because i have met more good and nice punjabis than few rotten ones, the likes of which are present in every community. But your friend havi is mentally unstable and is on some revenge mission because some afghans on internet didnt appreciate his book and laughed at him. Now he is spreading hate against afghan people and you people are clapping for him.



You are crying about the Afghans. Two lar Pashtuns were killed in there. You didn't say a word against them. You are like the Taliban sympathizers like @Zarvin who justify their stupidity just as you justify Afghanistan's idiotic policies. You are a disgrace.

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## Hyperion

haviZsultan said:


> You are crying about the Afghans. Two lar Pashtuns were killed in there. You didn't say a word against them. You are like the Taliban sympathizers like @Zarvin who justify their stupidity just as you justify Afghanistan's idiotic policies. You are a disgrace.



Not @Zarvin dude, he is as cool as a popsicle. You're talking about our in-house-firebrand-chest-thumping *halwa loving* wannabe moooooola, the one and only great @Zarvan!

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## OrionHunter

Revenge? Now, with a million Afghans in Pakistan, things could get out of hand!


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## Srinivas

Don Jaguar said:


> Epic fail.
> 
> On torkham border PA soldiers are pashtuns.



Yes may be the soldiers are also pashtuns, But the fight which is going on both sides that too between civilians, will only decrease the unity among the tribes and people.


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## Hyperion

Nope, 99% of those refugees are Pashtuns. There will be no problem, however, next time I see a an Uzbek or a Tajik in Pakistan, well let me put it this way, my dogs will have some time off! 




OrionHunter said:


> Revenge? Now, with a million Afghans in Pakistan, things could get out of hand!

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## Sher Malang

haviZsultan said:


> You are crying about the Afghans. Two lar Pashtuns were killed in there. You didn't say a word against them. You are like the Taliban sympathizers like @Zarvin who justify their stupidity just as you justify Afghanistan's idiotic policies. You are a disgrace.



Me and luffy will not go against all Pashtuns of lar or bar for the doings of individuals but unknown creatures like yourself will beg our confrontation at any cost! nor we will go against all Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochs for the doings of their individuals. 

Btw I have just found your topic on PF.com went through ten pages and found out that you aren't a Pashtun nor you know a damn thing about Pashtuns or Islam; I doubt you are a MQM supporter. 

I have to say, that topic on PF.com has went almost to 50+ pages but none of your crap was accepted by any one of Pashtuns there so you with your tail ran-away and started BS-ing with the rest of your 'qabila' in PDF here. You aren't man enough to confront Pashtuns that's what you are showing!

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## Hyperion

@RazPaK, yara kuch to boliye, hum bhee aap kay ilm say istifada uthayen.

How would a Chaudri solve this crisis, point-by-point explanation please!


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

haviZsultan said:


> You are crying about the Afghans. Two lar Pashtuns were killed in there. You didn't say a word against them. You are like the Taliban sympathizers like @Zarvin who justify their stupidity just as you justify Afghanistan's idiotic policies. You are a disgrace.



Play time over for you also. From now i am going to report your foul and vulgar langauge , personal attacks. Keep it clean as we have also ladies here.

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## DV RULES

Afghans are responsible for such counter attacks, Afghan army under NATO bosses planned every evil things happened in Pakistan. Farsiwans keep pain against Pakistan more than any so they should be treated same. Afghan foreign ministry condemnation is not enough unless they will arrest those and punish who disrespect Pakistanis. 

*Ahmad* may put some useful comments but he is not active now a days.

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## Redbull

Hyperion said:


> Not @Zarvin dude, he is as cool as a popsicle. You're talking about our in-house-firebrand-chest-thumping *halwa loving* wannabe moooooola, the one and only great @Zarvan!





I didn't read the OP but I hope the Pak Pashtuns kick thier ***.

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## RazPaK

It was a fair badla.


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## Hyperion

Zarvin said:


> I didn't read the OP but I hope the Pak Pashtuns kick thier ***.



Mate, you gotta change your handle! Do you know how many people hate you for no reason? 








I'm outta here. Wonderful life calls. I'll leave bashing for later.

@Armstrong, please take over and chat the hell out of them.

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## RazPaK

In the next coming decade Tajiks are going to get their *** whooped again.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Sher Malang said:


> Me and luffy will not go against all Pashtuns of lar or bar for the doings of individuals but unknown creatures like yourself will beg our confrontation at any cost! nor we will go against all Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochs for the doings of their individuals.
> 
> Btw I have just found your topic on PF.com went through ten pages and found out that you aren't a Pashtun nor you know a damn thing about Pashtuns or Islam; I doubt you are a MQM supporter.
> 
> I have to say, that topic on PF.com has went almost to 50 pages but none of your crap was accepted by any one of Pashtuns there so you with your tail ran-away and started BS-ing with the rest of your 'qabila' in PDF here. You aren't man enough to confront Pashtuns that's what you are showing!



This "namona" is actually mohajir of karachi originating from farhang mahal in U.P. He thinks he might be descendant of pir rokhan just because his last name ends with ansari. He also thinks that he might be a descendant of some unknown pashtun princess. He also claims that he might have 15% blood in him (how do we calculate pashtun blood?). So he is trying to "adopt" pashtun race (how we adopt another race, it doesnt make any sense)...I find his claims funny and he went all hysterical on me.
But i have to admit that this mental disorder is quite popular among patriotic pak pashtuns.

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## Hyperion

What do you say to big game hunting in Northern Afghanistan, 2015?

Old memories need refreshing! 




RazPaK said:


> In the next coming decade Tajiks are going to get their *** whooped again.

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## RazPaK

Hyperion said:


> What do you say to big game hunting in Northern Afghanistan, 2015?
> 
> Old memories need refreshing!



I think Afghan Pashtuns will massacre them on their own.

Of course the Pashtuns that are Tajik boot lickers will be executed first.


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## Sher Malang

Monkey D Luffy said:


> This "namona" is actually mohajir of karachi originating from farhang mahal in U.P. He thinks he might be descendant of pir rokhan just because his last name ends with ansari. He also thinks that he might be a descendant of some unknown pashtun princess. He also claims that he might have 15% blood in him (how do we calculate pashtun blood?). So he is trying to "adopt" pashtun race (how we adopt another race, it doesnt make any sense)...I find his claims funny and he went all hysterical on me.
> But i have to admit that this mental disorder is quite popular among patriotic pak pashtuns.



What's logic with 15% blood? is there an instrument that gauges blood in the body with an ethnicity indicator?  

Don't take it serious I know you have a big heart; time will cure people like him  I was too actually laughing on his posts and counters in PF.com! that was the sole reason I left that place long ago.


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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> You are reported for racist remarks. I only warned you back when you called mohajirs of karachi as degenerated race but this time i am reporting you.



Can you believe this guy?  On the other forum he spends his time abusing Punjabis, Jinnah and virtually everyone else hiding behind the fact that such things are the norm there and he can say what he wants. Here he is acting like this little angel who is being shoved around. He insulted Firangi Mahal from where Muslim League was formed. lol. You are a real smartass aren't you?

Luffy you have insulted everyone who doesn't agree with you then run off to the other forum to carry on your insults and you dare talk about Hyperion? 

Think, Luffy, think, if it is part of your limited capabilities and something your primitive brain can do. I just showed you a post from an MQM supporting Muhajir who kept calling me names and since I have told you about my family background you know how racist they can be. They can't talk without insulting another ethnic group, it comes up in every conversation. 

I disagree with Hyperion feeding a wolf by replying to him in the same way. When you reply by insulting his ethnic group it gives the ethno-fascist what he wants. He suceeds in creating an ethnic war. This is how they eventually gain votes. Its simply in the interest of MQM to perpetuate the myth that Muhajirs are somehow oppressed which is how they win votes. Its very similar for other ethnic parties. We shouldn't take part in it. @Hyperion is emotional and does not understand this but he will. But if he doesn't... I have studied Waziristan for years... people there are far more emotional than anyone else in the country. 

However I will stand for Hyperion because I know how hard it is not to loose your nerve with those guys. I stopped calling myself a Muhajir because of their stupidity and I who am by birth a Muhajir am very hostile against them and can confirm that they are a degenerate race who have dug up and shot Jinnah's grave and stomped on the Pakistani flag... especially if they support Altaf's speech.

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## haviZsultan

Sorry for mistaking @Zarvan for @Zarvin.



Zarvin said:


> I didn't read the OP but I hope the Pak Pashtuns kick thier ***.



We will... just leave that to us... I'd personally delegate this task to @Hyperion though. 
Our representative.

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## The Green1

Next time this happens the Afghan National @$$ will be kicked so hard, the sound will be heard in the whole of afg.

Never mess with our tribals.

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## darkinsky

Andromache said:


> can anyone try if he makes any sense?



it will only make sense when you pastuns kick all the afghanis from your land and mine the afghanistan border

i mean they have all been nuiscence from the very start


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## Son of Mountains

time to think for bar pashtuns who have no other job but bark upon us lar pashtuns.

they are hypocrite people:
The Hypocrite AFGHANS

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## Safriz

Andromache said:


> That was unfortunate. The thread should be merged with that thread about Pakistanis tortured by Afghan border army.
> 
> This proves that farsiwan ANA has atlast succeeded in pitching Pukhtuns against each other.
> 
> time for bar shar lar bar Pukhtuns in Afghanistan to get their heads examined and kick these farsiwans to save their culture



Taking revenge is a Pushtoon tradition,so relatives taking the revenge complies with well established Pushtoon traditions..
Nothing Non-Pushtoon here.

Pakistani Tribal Pushtoons need to behave as Pakistanis first,and dont mix their identity with Afghans on Ethnic,linguistic grounds..
Until then sealing the border will remain impossible..


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## haviZsultan

Safriz said:


> Taking revenge is a Pushtoon tradition,so relatives taking the revenge complies with well established Pushtoon traditions..
> Nothing Non-Pushtoon here.
> 
> Pakistani Tribal Pushtoons need to behave as Pakistanis first,and dont mix their identity with Afghans on Ethnic,linguistic grounds..
> Until then sealing the border will remain impossible..



Safriz man why you holding your nose so high. Andromache, Hyperion, hundreds of others are kicking these people in the buttock daily and you are saying we mix our identity with that of Afghans (from Afghanistan)...

We have nothing to do with them. They insult our people, they call all sorts of names to lar (Pakistani) Pashtuns.Nationality always comes first for us all. But you can't seal border when you have family members on other side. I think a more proper solution is needed.

Afghanistan may always remain an issue for us from what I saw on the other site. We should take that country and merge it. Pashtuns will be united in one country and everyone will be happy.


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## Safriz

haviZsultan said:


> Safriz man why you holding your nose so high. Andromache, Hyperion, hundreds of others are kicking these people in the buttock daily and you are saying we mix our identity with that of Afghans (from Afghanistan)...
> 
> We have nothing to do with them. They insult our people, they call all sorts of names to lar (Pakistani) Pashtuns.Nationality always comes first for us all. But you can't seal border when you have family members on other side. I think a more proper solution is needed.
> 
> Afghanistan may always remain an issue for us from what I saw on the other site. We should take that country and merge it. Pashtuns will be united in one country and everyone will be happy.


For "revenge" i generalized it as an overall tradition,as Andro was painting it as Pushtoon fighting pushtoon..I counter argued that its a revenge.
About losing identity to Afghans I used the word "Tribal Pushtoons" as in the FATA....
I did not generalize....
Hope its clear now.

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## haviZsultan

Son of Mountains said:


> time to think for bar pashtuns who have no other job but bark upon us lar pashtuns.
> 
> they are hypocrite people:
> The Hypocrite AFGHANS



Lemme guess? Luffy called you here? Btw yesterday he did the same thing with me. @A.Rafay had put him on his lap and was smacking his butt like he was a rowdy little kid... he actually started calling for me even though Rafay only smacked him, I usually use a stick on separatists and racists. 

Luffy, if these actions are secretly being undertaken as self-punishment in order to seek absolution for bribes taken from Admin Khan and abuse inflicted against Pakistani Pashtuns on the other site it is okay. We forgive you.

We Pakistani Pashtuns always have a big heart. Now why don't you tell us where you are really from? Why you didn't condemn the attack on 2 Pakistani Pashtun drivers by Afghans (nation)?

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## A1Kaid

Why don't these Afghans go and bother Iranians or Tajikistan or some other nearby country, get over it and learn to respect the Durand line just like you respect your border with Iran. Learn to be mature and act like a responsible state, times have changed we are not living in the past where these borders didn't exist before they exist now and are a reality which you will accept if you want peace.

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## KRAIT

Revenge attacks can turn things reeally bad considering millions of Afghan refugees in Pakistan. Hope the issues get settled fast.


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## JonAsad

Throw all the afghan refugees out these backstabbers should go back to their country and then talk if they survive that is-

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## humanfirst

Well the good thing is the relatives got their revenge without killing anyone or even hurting anyone seriously..Otherwise it would have lead to a chain reaction with so many lives lost on both sides.


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## Safriz

humanfirst said:


> Well the good thing is the relatives got their revenge without killing anyone or even hurting anyone seriously..Otherwise it would have lead to a chain reaction with so many lives lost on both sides.



The tribal Pushtoons know how to take their revenge..
This is one thing they are good at.....Its always proportionate..not disproportionate...


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## SHAMK9

Now kick all the illegal afghans out  brotherhood my arse.

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## Hyperion

Yara, first of all I'm not emotional at all. Else, the armed forces at one point wouldn't have agreed to put multimillion dollar war machines under by butttt. Secondly, I have style when I bash people, I do hurt people pretty bad with my mouth, however, I'd never call them degenerate. I am much simpler and cultured than that -- words cut deep, and mine slice through! 



haviZsultan said:


> Can you believe this guy?  On the other forum he spends his time abusing Punjabis, Jinnah and virtually everyone else hiding behind the fact that such things are the norm there and he can say what he wants. Here he is acting like this little angel who is being shoved around. He insulted Firangi Mahal from where Muslim League was formed. lol. You are a real smartass aren't you?
> 
> Luffy you have insulted everyone who doesn't agree with you then run off to the other forum to carry on your insults and you dare talk about Hyperion?
> 
> Think, Luffy, think, if it is part of your limited capabilities and something your primitive brain can do. I just showed you a post from an MQM supporting Muhajir who kept calling me names and since I have told you about my family background you know how racist they can be. They can't talk without insulting another ethnic group, it comes up in every conversation.
> 
> I disagree with Hyperion feeding a wolf by replying to him in the same way. When you reply by insulting his ethnic group it gives the ethno-fascist what he wants. He suceeds in creating an ethnic war. This is how they eventually gain votes. Its simply in the interest of MQM to perpetuate the myth that Muhajirs are somehow oppressed which is how they win votes. Its very similar for other ethnic parties. We shouldn't take part in it. @Hyperion is emotional and does not understand this but he will. But if he doesn't... I have studied Waziristan for years... people there are far more emotional than anyone else in the country.
> 
> However I will stand for Hyperion because I know how hard it is not to loose your nerve with those guys. I stopped calling myself a Muhajir because of their stupidity and I who am by birth a Muhajir am very hostile against them and can confirm that they are a degenerate race who have dug up and shot Jinnah's grave and stomped on the Pakistani flag... especially if they support Altaf's speech.

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## peep

pakistanis are so peace loving !!


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## Armstrong

@Hyperion @haviZsultan @SHAMK9 : Why wasn't I invited to the party long before ?  

Now you've had all the fun & left !

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Safriz said:


> For "revenge" i generalized it as an overall tradition,as Andro was painting it as Pushtoon fighting pushtoon..I counter argued that its a revenge.
> About losing identity to Afghans I used the word "Tribal Pushtoons" as in the FATA....
> I did not generalize....
> Hope its clear now.



I agree with you on this, it is indeed not lar vs bar scenario, it is a case of revenge.


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Yara, first of all I'm not emotional at all. *Else, the armed forces at one point wouldn't have agreed to put multimillion dollar war machines under by butttt.* Secondly, I have style when I bash people, I do hurt people pretty bad with my mouth, however, I'd never call them degenerate. I am much simpler and cultured than that -- words cut deep, and mine slice through!



Didn't they come to regret their decision later on when you got kicked out of the Armed Forces for wasting away millions of dollars of our hard earned cash making domestic objects of pleasure & opening your very own shop at Kamra called the 'Palace of Heavenly Pleasures' !

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## Armstrong

@chauvunist : *Doctor Sahib*, aur kaisee mizaaaj hain huzoooor keh ? 

Any comments on the topic ?

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

peep said:


> pakistanis are so peace loving !!



hi!.................

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## haviZsultan

@Sher Malang the head of that forum is a snake. I was depanting you and your fellow Afghans but it seems your worst fear is a person like me who challenges your narrative. That forum maintains its superiority by locking members out of their accounts. Admin then makes this pathetic speech about SQL and stuff. Anyone who challenges the terrorist Afghans (80% of the people there) and their backers (20% of the people) is locked out of his own account with the use of admin account control tools, the password is changed and the account is taken over-the e-mail to change passwords is also changed (coincidence)... though he makes sure he doesn't ban anyone to make it seem like he supports freedom of speech. There were two other members who were patriotic Pakistanis and suffered the same fate. 

Also how are there more Afghans on that site than lar Pashtuns? We make up 80% of the total Pashtun population... looks like some foul play involved back there. 



Safriz said:


> For "revenge" i generalized it as an overall tradition,as Andro was painting it as Pushtoon fighting pushtoon..I counter argued that its a revenge.
> About losing identity to Afghans I used the word "Tribal Pushtoons" as in the FATA....
> I did not generalize....
> Hope its clear now.



I am sorry... but I am a little edgy when people look down upon Pashtuns. Since I was growing up in Karachi I have seen this intrinsic bias against the Pashtuns, one guy in our office, nice smiling guy always saying we are one, we are Pakistani constantly abused because he is a Pashtun. They are more patriotic than anyone else, they love their country, they are emotional and very quick to smile. But never in my life from the mouth of a person from our khandaan would I happen to hear something good about them. This is what thinking too highly of ethnicity does in the end... it makes us bigots. I realized being a Pakistani is about loving all the ethnic groups, all the races and all religions in Pakistan... if I can't respect them then how can I be a Pakistani Nationalist?

I am largely disengaged from race or ethnicity. It does not really matter to me. In the end I am adopting Pashtun culture and will soon master the language but I don't want this to make me too engaged or too affected by everything that I can't accept differing opinions and start shouting the moment I hear . The reason I am affected by these kind of comments and tend to defend Pashtuns is that because people have a negative impression of Pashtuns and they give this vibe that these innocent people are somehow responsible or to blame for everything that goes wrong. This is a very wrong attitude. FATA has been under the British FCR for 60+ years for no explainable reason, it has only a total of 30 or so colleges man and the one in Jamrud-the best of all was blown up by militants. How we can be so callous not to feel sorry for our own countrymen just because militants came to that area?

Safriz, i think its very necessary not to have negative views about any race because it makes people like Luffy. I explained why tribal Pashtuns should not be blamed for things earlier in some posts. Also much the opposite to what you described is actually happening. The Pashtun traditional dress is actually the ganr khat. Go to any big Pashtun city and girls are wearing shalwar kameez. Its the same with educated people in tribal areas too. So basically Pashtuns are accepting other peoples culture though no one should have to give up culture. Of 40 million Pashtuns 30 million know Pashto... others have learned urdu, punjabi or seraiki. 

Personally these things are a great part of our culture that should be preserved. It isn't Pashtun culture itself that is the enemy. The enemy, meray dost is basically our ethnic, our religious divisions. We end our religious and ethnic divisions we may have solved a great deal of our problems. And especially do not let one bigot let you develop your view on the whole race/

Basically people like Luffy get in queues when someone is offering him a job with dust smeared on their faces and their khat partogh's/shalwar kameez dirty as hell... it doesn't matter if job is from Blackwater, RAW or KHAD. He just needs a job very badly, probably to feed his family and people like Admin Khan (who are agents) who are always prowling the these areas for impressionable young men can hire him for a few bucks... you should read the article about the taliban where they are paying $170 to militants. Luffy is a militant... but an ideological one for Afghanistan. His game has been exposed here totally. He didn't say a single word for the 2 lions of Landi Kotal the Afghans killed the other day but he does the "I am a representative of lar Pashtuns" thing very often. He would have defended these lar Pashtuns and criticized the land of Farsiwan's and Dari speaking children like Sher Malang. Even Sher Malang called lar Pashtuns terrorists in his last few posts saying the two were terrorists and stuff like that. 

It's basically that Luffy doesn't care about lar (Pakistani) Pashtuns at all. He has sold himself to Afghanistan and will do anything for them as long as they keep paying him... unfortunately Afghanistan instead of spending the billions of dollars in aid to feed its citizens is now siphoning all this money to create division in Pashtunkhwa not realizing they are destabilizing own Pashtuns.

Look, lets imagine Luffy and Sher Malang are young 6-7 years boys without a partogh/shalwar to cover their *** and a kameez to drape their body... one being shoved from one street corner of Lakki Marwat to another for his troublesome attitude and the other forced to clean the shoes of Tajiks Uzbek and Hazara passerby's who at times give him a kick on the head instead of Pakistani rupees (which still run in Afghanistan btw)... if someone pays them money they will obviously start banging their chest and start all this loy pashtunistan rubbish. You get how easy it is to buy him?

So basically anyone can give wrong impression of Pashtuns... also there are bar Pashtuns... who aren't real Pashtuns but Tajikized Farsiwans being told from birth that they are superior to Indics (according to them that term includes Pakistanis of other ethnic groups) and also lar Pashtuns. They are just jokers because one look at history will prove all their history comes from Pakistan and Pakistani Pashtuns. 

Luffy knows nothing about Pashtuns man. My friend is an Orakzai girl in Canada from a very accomplished family. She hates Afghans and start swearing every time some Afghan starts his lar aw bar rubbish. FATA people hate Afghans. Afghans have infiltrated FATA and have these huge forts larger than ones Wazirs and Maseeds have and start shooting at even passerbys. No one can get too close. They are doling out huge bribes to TTP and still living in Maseed areas. Local people hate them. I know because of research for my book Badal. 

You have never been to tribal areas, not even studied them and you are making comments? Ignore Luffy and Sher Malang and dozens of internet Afghans (nation) you meet on the internet. They lack a brain to analyze and the moment someone will criticize Afghanistan they will start crying "traitor to Pashtun", "traitor to Pashtun"... they are not true representative of Pashtuns. How you can judge pakistani pashtun because of a weak and insecure (unworthy and Farsi speaking) Pashtun from Afghanistan?

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## Hyperion

@Monkey D Luffy is Marwat? I have LOADS of cousins married into Marwats! 

I have never known Marwats to be anti-state. This is a bit strange and difficult for me to digest. Btw Luffy, Malang markets himself as a SalmanKhel, trust me he is not. I have family contacts within Salman Khel's (not your average Joe kind either) I am talking about people who run things both sides of the border, I have never come across anyone as anti Pakistan as this American funded fool.

Mate, I guess you are very young. Observe things and be patient.

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## haviZsultan

Armstrong said:


> @Hyperion @haviZsultan @SHAMK9 : Why wasn't I invited to the party long before ?
> 
> Now you've had all the fun & left !



Lilax! Many jokes to crack still at the expense of Luffy.... 

OMG! Look who I found. You have to use hotspot shield or JAP to watch this if you are in Pakistan.

Batman and spiderman to the rescue - YouTube

Sher Malang and Luffy as Batman and Spiderman preparing to teach PDF'ers a lesson. 
Should I delete this from here and make a completely separate thread in the members club. Vote now. 

Luffy... if you condemn the killing of two lar Pashtuns and condemn Afghanistan for this I will leave you today. Promise. It shouldn't be too hard. You fancied yourself the representative of Lar Pashtuns. Also Sher Malang called our two dead heroes terrorists. As a lar Pashtun with 2 lar Pashtun brothers killed by secret agents of ANA and their Tajik Hazara and Uzbek backers who Sher Malang is very keen to serve why don't you condemn that.

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## ghilzai

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> * Cleaver move by PA to stop the pashtuns on both sides getting united. *



Clever move by the Pakistan army to keep pushtoons apart?.

What has the Pakistani army have to do with anything, it is has large numbers of pushtoons, Pakistan army is the pushtoon army, pushtoons are the backbone of it.

Pushtoons of Pakistan reject afghan pushtoons, we are pakistanis,race has nothing to do with it, our elders chose to be with Pakistan and till eternity that is what will be.

Afghan pushtoon is Pakistani pushtoons blood brother but Pakistan is our mother so we will always love mommy more.

Please stop your silly assumptions.

Good these afghans got trashed, we need to teach them a lesson that you don't fuk with kp boys.

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> @Monkey D Luffy is Marwat? I have LOADS of cousins married into Marwats!
> 
> I have never known Marwats to be anti-state. This is a bit strange and difficult for me to digest. Btw Luffy, Malang markets himself as a SalmanKhel, trust me he is not. I have family contacts within Salman Khel's (not your average Joe kind either) I am talking about people who run things both sides of the border, I have never come across anyone as anti Pakistan as this American funded fool.
> 
> Mate, I guess you are very young. Observe things and be patient.



Luffy isn't anti-state hes just Pro-Afghanistan !  

And I found out yesterday one of my Uncle's employee at the office is a Bangash from Kohat ! My 70 something friend is a Bangash as well; how come my friend is around 6'5 fair & has the same nose & facial construct as that of Bacha Khan whereas this other guy I'm talking about is around my height (5'8) & wheatish to dark in complexion ! How come so much variation in one tribe ?  

Aur bhai sahib shokhiyaan marniii busss kareiiii ! Pump itnaa kiyaa hovaa hai apneii aap kooo aur baad mein pataa chaleiii keee border ke Suleimankhel's mein siii eik chaiii waleiii koo janteiii theee !  

Are any of your cousins married to Punjabis or Kashmiris yaa aap loggg bhiii 'pure blood' ke suckers hain as Luffy thinks most traditional Pashtuns are ?

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> Are any of your cousins married to Punjabis or Kashmiris yaa aap loggg bhiii 'pure blood' ke suckers hain as Luffy thinks most traditional Pashtuns are ?



Loads, loads and butttt loads of their children are married into Punjabis. Don't listen to this *BS* that Pushtoons don't marry outside, take it all with a mountain-load of salt.

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Loads, loads and butttt loads of their children are married into Punjabis. Don't listen to this *BS* that Pushtoons don't marry outside, take it all with a mountain-load of salt.



I've heard of 'bucket' loads but the hell is 'buttt' loads ?  

Glad to hear that !

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> I've heard of 'bucket' loads but the hell is 'buttt' loads ?
> 
> Glad to hear that !



I optimized it for your pleasure, only!

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## ghilzai

I am from kp and in Karachi i seen many pukhtoon married to non pukhtoons, i Ghilzai will marry anyone as we believe race goes on father, regardless of what mothers race is.

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## Armstrong

ghilzai said:


> I am from kp and in Karachi i seen many pukhtoon married to non pukhtoons, i Ghilzai will marry anyone as we believe race goes on father, regardless of what mothers race is.



 

Okay then let me get back to you with a fat bride from us Buttts who'd look more like Dumbo the Elephant than Lady Guneverre of the Arthurian legends !

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## chauvunist

Armstrong said:


> @chauvunist : *Doctor Sahib*, aur kaisee mizaaaj hain huzoooor keh ?
> 
> Any comments on the topic ?




Aoa and thanks bro,

thanks to haviz sultan for defending our point of view,like i told before the way pakistanis(be it pashtuns or other ethnicities) are treated in Afghanistan and the way afghans behave and talk anti pak here,Locals are fed up of these people and their backstabbing and this particular action of revenge is no surprise.....

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## ghilzai

These afghan pukhtoon are scabs and thieves, even the farsiwan are better then them, i can understand they are even tired of these ungrateful, thieving, uncompromising drug trafficking thugs.

Time to rid kp n fata of these ungrateful rats.

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## haviZsultan

ghilzai said:


> I am from kp and in Karachi i seen many pukhtoon married to non pukhtoons, i Ghilzai will marry anyone as we believe race goes on father, regardless of what mothers race is.



Pakhair raghlay... @Hyperion @Secur @Armstrong and me... we fight bigotry wherever we see it. Welcome to the site and I hope we enjoy some really good times here. #PDFfamily.

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## Armstrong

chauvunist said:


> Aoa and thanks bro,
> 
> thanks to haviz sultan for defending our point of view,like i told before the way pakistanis(be it pashtuns or other ethnicities) are treated in Afghanistan and the way afghans behave and talk anti pak here,Locals are fed up of these people and their backstabbing and this particular action of revenge is no surprise.....



*Doctor Sahib* perhaps you should go to Helmand once every week for Private Practice 4-5 lakh kiii kameiii ho jaiii giiii !  

My cousin's husband does that in the audit & consultancy profession, there is a very conspicuous dearth & much demand for Qualified Professionals !
@Monkey D Luffy : Rora, specialization select kar liiii yaaa abhii time hai ?

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## chauvunist

Armstrong said:


> *Doctor Sahib* perhaps you should go to Helmand once every week for Private Practice 4-5 lakh kiii kameiii ho jaiii giiii !
> 
> My cousin's husband does that in the audit & consultancy profession, there is a very conspicuous dearth & much demand for Qualified Professionals !



one of my friend started to work as lecturer in jalalabad but he left the job after 2 months...After these 2 months he now really thinks low of afghans for their misbehave towards us and is full of hatred for these people....

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## Armstrong

@waz : *Sahib* aap bhii kuch boleiiin ! 
@chauvunist : Rora, koiii specialization ka sochaaa ?


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## RazPaK

So much pashtun love on the thread it makes me fear for the boys.

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## haviZsultan

chauvunist said:


> one of my friend started to work as lecturer in jalalabad but he left the job after 2 months...After these 2 months he now really thinks low of afghans for their misbehave towards us and is full of hatred for these people....



I will also share a story about a friend. I am not sure whether he was working in Paktia or Paktika... It might be posted soon on our website or blog for the Nationalist news network. He is kind of like a mercenary in Afghanistan for a warlord. He reports the same things.

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## chauvunist

Armstrong said:


> @waz : *Sahib* aap bhii kuch boleiiin !
> @chauvunist : Rora, koiii specialization ka sochaaa ?



Na yaar,my preps for final year just started and my head is full of tension and anxiety nowdays....

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Hyperion said:


> Loads, loads and butttt loads of their children are married into Punjabis. Don't listen to this *BS* that Pushtoons don't marry outside, take it all with a mountain-load of salt.



Its good to see that men and women of your family are married into punjabis, inter-ethnic marraiges are good for pakistan. But my family is strict and traditional, we marry into our own marwats preferably of same village.

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## RazPaK

chauvunist said:


> Na yaar,my preps for final year just started and my head is full of tension and anxiety nowdays....





Upar say yeh pashtun aur pareshani dey rein hain.

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## Armstrong

chauvunist said:


> Na yaar,my preps for final year just started and my head is full of tension and anxiety nowdays....



Agar plastic surgery mein jaooo gaiii touu mujhee eik Rhinoplasty karvanii haiii !  

Good Luck for the exam !

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## DRaisinHerald

?

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## chauvunist

haviZsultan said:


> I will also share a story about a friend. I am not sure whether he was working in Paktia or Paktika... It might be posted soon on our website or blog for the Nationalist news network. He is kind of like a mercenary in Afghanistan for a warlord. He reports the same things.



there are many many stories and incidents of such nature about backstabbing,fraud and deception to post....

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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Its good to see that men and women of your family are married into punjabis, inter-ethnic marraiges are good for pakistan. But my family is strict and traditional, we marry into our own marwats preferably of same village.



Oh teriii kiii !  

Bhai itnaa choothaa gene-pool, Doctor come on you know thats not healthy !  

So does this mean ke Luffy Khan kee Khanum bhii Marwat ho giii ! Good Luck & God Bless you, rora !


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Armstrong said:


> *Doctor Sahib* perhaps you should go to Helmand once every week for Private Practice 4-5 lakh kiii kameiii ho jaiii giiii !
> 
> My cousin's husband does that in the audit & consultancy profession, there is a very conspicuous dearth & much demand for Qualified Professionals !
> @Monkey D Luffy : Rora, specialization select kar liiii yaaa abhii time hai ?



abi house job kar raha hun uske baad FCPS part 1 dunga.

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## RazPaK

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Its good to see that men and women of your family are married into punjabis, inter-ethnic marraiges are good for pakistan. But my family is strict and traditional, we marry into our own marwats preferably of same village.




My family is Arain , and do the same marry within our own. Recently my cousin married a Rajput. His father got so upset he suffered from a heart attack.

Times are changing.

Marrying within the same village is kind of extreme though.

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## chauvunist

Armstrong said:


> Agar plastic surgery mein jaooo gaiii touu mujhee eik Rhinoplasty karvanii haiii !
> 
> Good Luck for the exam !



Thanks buddy...though i am more inclined to other fields of surgery but i would feel lucky to help you in anyway....

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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> abi house job kar raha hun uske baad FCPS part 1 dunga.



Good !  

Kuch sochaa kisss mein FCPS karniii haiii ?  

Koi USMLE ka mood haii yaaa phir FRCP kaa ? Locum par Doctors bohat kamaateiiii hainnn !

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Armstrong said:


> Oh teriii kiii !
> 
> Bhai itnaa choothaa gene-pool, Doctor come on you know thats not healthy !
> 
> So does this mean ke Luffy Khan kee Khanum bhii Marwat ho giii ! Good Luck & God Bless you, rora !


Yes Marwat hi hogi, apne ilaqay waley se shadi karni chahiye. Aik tu understanding hoti he dosra aik dosray k khandan par nazar bi hoti he.

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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Yes Marwat hi hogi, apne ilaqay waley se shadi karni chahiye. Aik tu understanding hoti he dosra aik dosray k khandan par nazar bi hoti he.



Chaloo joo aap ko manzooor hooo !  

Allah khush rakhiii aap donooon kooo !

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## Hyperion

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Its good to see that men and women of your family are married into punjabis, inter-ethnic marraiges are good for pakistan. But my family is strict and traditional, *we marry into our own marwats preferably of same village.*



I know that fact very well! With time everything will change, for the better!

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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> *Its good to see that men and women of your family are married into punjabis, inter-ethnic marraiges are good for pakistan.* But my family is strict and traditional, we marry into our own marwats preferably of same village.



I wonder why you never had the courage to say that in front of abbasinaafghan when he threatened to rape Afghanis_hehe's mother and called her a woman unworthy of calling herself a Pashtun for marrying a Punjabi. In fact if I remember correctly you supported that racist and started insulting afghanis_hehe with some of the most horrible insults possible. And you still haven't found me a post where he even ONCE insulted Ahmed Shah Abdali.


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## RazPaK

Armstrong said:


> Chaloo joo aap ko manzooor hooo !
> 
> Allah khush rakhiii aap donooon kooo !



Dono?


He might want three or two.

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## Hyperion

Monkey D Luffy said:


> abi house job kar raha hun uske baad FCPS part 1 dunga.


Where do you plan to practice after that -- Peshawar, Lakki Marwat, or D.I.Khan?


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## Armstrong

RazPaK said:


> Dono?
> 
> 
> He might want three or two.



Oyeee usseiii aur usss kii begum koo - Innn donoon kii baat kar rahaa hunnn ! 

Aur *Chaudry Sahib*, unless I'm mistaken, aaap kii bhii koii baat ho chukiii haiii naa ?

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## Hyperion

Havi, leave him alone yara. He is one of our own. Sher on the other hand, I have some serious issues with. He is a traitor and needs someone to whoop his ***.




haviZsultan said:


> I wonder why you never had the courage to say that in front of abbasinaafghan when he threatened to rape Afghanis_hehe's mother and called her a woman unworthy of calling herself a Pashtun for marrying a Punjabi. In fact if I remember correctly you supported that racist and started insulting afghanis_hehe with some of the most horrible insults possible. And you still haven't found me a post where he even ONCE insulted Ahmed Shah Abdali.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

RazPaK said:


> My family is Arain , and do the same marry within our own. Recently my cousin married a Rajput. His father got so upset he suffered from a heart attack.
> 
> Times are changing.
> 
> Marrying within the same village is kind of extreme though.



I did'nt say we compulsorily marry within our village, we prefer to find rishta first in the village which has 8 thousands population, then in nearby villages. The advantage is that you know who exactly you are marrying into. There is no taboo on marrying outside tribe or district but for convenience sake we dont need to search for rishta in distant places like swat or dir. In mixed areas like peshawer marwats heavily intermarry with other pakhtuns.
But we dont marry with 1)non-pakhtuns 2) among pashto speakers we dont marry with low caste communities e.g daman, karigars etc

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> I know that fact very well! With time everything will change, for the better!



I can't remember one person in my extended family who married into the own family ! Thats why we've got everyone from Pashtuns to Baloch to Sindhis to Punjabis & an Egyptian, a Chilean, a Turk, a German & an Indonesian in our extended family !  

Okay maybe a guy did but he was too far off a relative to be considered !

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Hyperion said:


> Havi, leave him alone yara. He is one of our own. Sher on the other hand, I have some serious issues with. He is a traitor and needs someone to whoop his ***.



Let me tell you and other members here, havi sultan is making up things, with all rape of mother and crap. I was smiling at his funny lies, but i think he is crossing lines. If he is telling truth, then he should post links . 
Fun time over havi, now prepare yourelf for a e-war.


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## Armstrong

@mafiya : Yaraaa tumm chuppp chaaap hii rahoo geiii yaaa kuch bolo geiii bhiii ?

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## haviZsultan

Armstrong said:


> Luffy isn't anti-state hes just Pro-Afghanistan !



You were saved from the racist side. On the other site he can be a pain in the ***... and is quite free to distort history. Has support too. But he has the weird ability to start defending Pakistan at times. Guess thats good. 

I agree that Luffy is one of the better ones. Does it change the fact one bit that he is a racist and bigot going to great lengths to prove otherwise. No. Luffy... I guess you are trying to act more tolerant than you have ever been. I hope it is a *permanent* change and not a *temporary* one. Luffy... this is our country and we have to live and die for it. 

Ethnic group, Afghanistan... we may get nothing from this. Try to appreciate things rather than trying to start a race war everywhere.

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## Hyperion

Luffy, if I remember correctly, once upon a time I met a Marwat in Holland, I think. His mum was local from there and father was some retired colonel (Marwat) from the British era. I bet you know who I am talking about. I also remember coming across a few more in the UK and Australia. Which means, you people have also started going out of your comfort zone. 




Monkey D Luffy said:


> I did'nt say we compulsorily marry within our village, we prefer to find rishta first in the village which has 8 thousands population, then in nearby villages. The advantage is that you know who exactly you are marrying into. There is no taboo on marrying outside tribe or district but for convenience sake we dont need to search for rishta in distant places like swat or dir. In mixed areas like peshawer marwats heavily intermarry with other pakhtuns.
> But we dont marry with 1)non-pakhtuns 2) among pashto speakers we dont marry with low caste communities e.g daman, karigars etc

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## haviZsultan

P.S. Something tells me Armstrong comes here for yaarbashi rather than anything else.

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## Hyperion

Preda mara. All of you please calm down!

Enough with us fighting amongst each other. 




Monkey D Luffy said:


> Let me tell you and other members here, havi sultan is making up things, with all rape of mother and crap. I was smiling at his funny lies, but i think he is crossing lines. If he is telling truth, then he should post links .
> Fun time over havi, now prepare yourelf for a e-war.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Hyperion said:


> Where do you plan to practice after that -- Peshawar, Lakki Marwat, or D.I.Khan?



Not decided. May be lakki marwat.

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## haviZsultan

@Monkey D Luffy facts can be ascertained from another Marwat...  



Hyperion said:


> I know that fact very well! With time everything will change, for the better!



My fear is the change is too slooooow though... I am speaking about all of Pakistan. BTW when we talk about change... a lot has been negative... 80's Soviet Jihad and all that... then the way our communities just accepted bigotry as a part and parcel... even the migrants instead of integrating became a separate community.


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## Hyperion

You still think? 



haviZsultan said:


> P.S. Something tells me Armstrong comes here for yaarbashi rather than anything else.



No it's not. Everything changes at it's own pace. I don't foresee any problem, whatsoever!




haviZsultan said:


> My fear is the change is too slooooow though...

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## Bratva

monkey at your place of work how people tolerate you since you are a hardcore racist?


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## Armstrong

haviZsultan said:


> P.S. Something tells me Armstrong comes here for yaarbashi rather than anything else.



Solely for that !  

I sobered up to the realities of debating on PDF in the first 2-3 months; its a waste of time !

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## Bratva

@RazPaK. Yaar rajpooto ka sab say bara masla yahi hota hay you cant tell weather they are real or fake. Zayada tar rajput fake hotay hay!

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## RazPaK

Pathan apni jaga par, bur Chaudhry fe Chaudry hunda kakayo.

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## Armstrong

mafiya said:


> @RazPaK. Yaar rajpooto ka sab say bara masla yahi hota hay you cant tell weather they are real or fake. Zayada tar rajput fake hotay hay!



My Mom is a Rajput !  

Kiyaa litmus test honaa chahiyeee ? 



RazPaK said:


> Pathan apni jaga par, bur Chaudhry fe Chaudry hunda kakayo.



And yet '*Buttt are Perfection Incarnate*' !  

Koiii aurrr hamareii jaisiii Nihari banaa kar touu dikhaaiiii !

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## Baby Leone

obviously when they will threaten few hundreds Pakistanis working in afghanistan for their own development than Pakistanis can also kick 5 millions afghans living in Pakistan.

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## A1Kaid

Armstrong said:


> My Mom is a Rajput !
> 
> Kiyaa litmus test honaa chahiyeee ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet 'Buttt is Perfection Incarnate' !
> 
> Koiii aurrr hamareii jaisiii Nihari banaa kar touu dikhaaiiii !





Off topic: Then how are you a pure Kashmiri when your mother is Rajput? Rajput people are not Kashmiri. I think Rajputs reside in Azad Kashmir but so do Mirpuris but that doesn't mean they're ethnically Kashmiris.

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## Bratva

Armstrong said:


> My Mom is a Rajput !
> 
> Kiyaa litmus test honaa chahiyeee ?



litmus test exist. There were some people who were awarded khaan title from british empire and agricultural lands and they became rajputs. 

Ancestory map and place of their ancestor birth determines wheather you are real or fake. For us Arains, jhalandhar and gurdaspur is where our ancestors migrated from. And this is our litmus test

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## Sedqal

A1Kaid said:


> Off topic: Then how are you a pure Kashmiri when your mother is Rajput? Rajput people are not Kashmiri. I think Rajputs reside in Azad Kashmir but so do Mirpuris but that doesn't mean they're ethnically Kashmiris.



Armstrong is not a Kashmiri?  Kashmir ethnic battles start.. right now!

All sides are advised to collect all data from last 2,000 years. Lets see who claims Alexander first

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

haviZsultan said:


> You were saved from the racist side. On the other site he can be a pain in the ***... and is quite free to distort history. Has support too. But he has the weird ability to start defending Pakistan at times. Guess thats good.
> 
> I agree that Luffy is one of the better ones. Does it change the fact one bit that he is a racist and bigot going to great lengths to prove otherwise. No. Luffy... I guess you are trying to act more tolerant than you have ever been. I hope it is a *permanent* change and not a *temporary* one. Luffy... this is our country and we have to live and die for it.
> 
> Ethnic group, Afghanistan... we may get nothing from this. Try to appreciate things rather than trying to start a race war everywhere.



Actually i only make fun of you and your unwritten book badal, i know i am mean to you but there is a fun in teasing you as just my one-liner provokes you to write a very long speech. You dont realize it but i am making you waste your lot of time. 
By the way do keep posting anti-luffy posts, they are interesting read but dont use vulgar langauge from now , kyun uss par teray kaan zaror kinchunga.

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## Armstrong

mafiya said:


> litmus test exist. There were some people who were awarded khaan title from british empire and agricultural lands and they became rajputs.
> 
> Ancestory map and place of their ancestor birth determines wheather you are real or fake. For us Arains, jhalandhar and gurdaspur is where our ancestors migrated from. And this is our litmus test



Dunno they (Mom's side) say they're Alvi Khokhar; God Knows what that means !

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## Hyperion

Wah wah wah ... barra mazza ayee ga abb! 



Sedqal said:


> Armstrong is not a Kashmiri?  Kashmir ethnic battles start.. right now!
> 
> All sides are advised to collect all data from last 2,000 years. Lets see who claims Alexander first

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## Armstrong

A1Kaid said:


> Off topic: Then how are you a pure Kashmiri when your mother is Rajput? Rajput people are not Kashmiri. I think Rajputs reside in Azad Kashmir but so do Mirpuris but that doesn't mean they're ethnically Kashmiris.



Nasal Baap se hoteiii haiii - Yahii sunaa thaaa hameeeshaaa !  

And Dad's an ethnic Kashmiri Buttt with roots in Khreu near Gulmarg (Kashmir Valley) ! 

So maybe I'm the '*half blood Prince*' ! 

On my part - Its a pile of BS ! I'm a Pakistani & thats my caste & creed ! 



Sedqal said:


> Armstrong is not a Kashmiri?  Kashmir ethnic battles start.. right now!
> 
> All sides are advised to collect all data from last 2,000 years. Lets see who claims Alexander first



Yaraa yeh kisss kashmakash mein daaal diyaa mujheee !  

Alexander ka touuu pataa nahiiin paaar Ben Gurion mereii aur @Hyperion kiii Phophiii kaa putaaaar thaaa !

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## DRaisinHerald

mafiya said:


> For us Arains, jhalandhar and gurdaspur is where our ancestors migrated from. And this is our litmus test



Another Arain 

*sorry for the useless post, lol*

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Wah wah wah ... barra mazza ayee ga abb!



Khobaaa diyaa naa churaaa meriii peiiittt meinnn *Khan* neiii !  

Yahii tawakooo thiii eikk Farsiwan Pashtun seiii !

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## Sedqal

Here is some help for you Armstrong

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## Armstrong

DRaisinHerald said:


> Another Arain
> 
> *sorry for the useless post, lol*



Young man so are you looking at Universities ?

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## DRaisinHerald

Armstrong said:


> Young man so are you looking at Universities ?



Um..yeah. But this question and the thread's topics do not meet

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## Armstrong

@Sedqal : Ainaaa maraaa Buttt nahin ho sakdaaa ! 



DRaisinHerald said:


> Um..yeah. But this question and the thread's topics do not meet



   

Do you really think that we've been 'meeting the thread's topic' anyhow ?

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> Dunno they (Mom's side) say they're Alvi Khokhar; God Knows what that means !


Alvi in Turkish is a kind of sect, not exactly Shia, but something close. But very very confusing.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

haviZsultan said:


> I wonder why you never had the courage to say that in front of abbasinaafghan when he threatened to rape Afghanis_hehe's mother and called her a woman unworthy of calling herself a Pashtun for marrying a Punjabi. In fact if I remember correctly you supported that racist and started insulting afghanis_hehe with some of the most horrible insults possible. And you still haven't found me a post where he even ONCE insulted Ahmed Shah Abdali.



If a pashtun marries a punjabi then its none of my business. Check the wall of afghani_hehe , i told him i have great respect for his mother. But i remained silent when there was ugly exchange of words between abaseen afghan and afghani-hehe because he was also throwing insults at me. The exact words that abaseen used were "your mother deserved to be shot for marrying punjabi", you raised your voice, you did well, shahbash. But dont give me peghor for my silence in the issue. I dont support any one who goes against me. I have no sympathy for trolls and spineless people. If i am lying then post the links of that thread here, but your lies will be exposed. If you did'nt stop then i would start posting quotations from that forum which would disturb enviroment here.


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## DRaisinHerald

Armstrong said:


> @Sedqal : Ainaaa maraaa Buttt nahin ho sakdaaa !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really think that we've been 'meeting the thread's topic' anyhow ?



PDF Magic. I always happens, but I never found out how


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Alvi in Turkish is a kind of sect, not exactly Shia, but something close. But very very confusing.



I know; isn't it spelled as Alawites or something like that ? 
@A1Kaid : Yaraa tumm shurliii choor kaar chaleiii hiiii gaiii ! 



DRaisinHerald said:


> PDF Magic. I always happens, but I never found out how



So is it 'Biology' still ?


----------



## DRaisinHerald

Armstrong said:


> So is it 'Biology' still ?



Yeah, it's my fav subject out of the 3 I did at A levels.

EDIT: I just noticed you have 10k + thanks. Last I checked you had less than 3k, lol.

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## Bratva

Alvies are the sunni offshoots of alawaties.


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## A1Kaid

Armstrong said:


> Nasal Baap se hoteiii haiii - Yahii sunaa thaaa hameeeshaaa !
> 
> And Dad's an ethnic Kashmiri Buttt with roots in Khreu near Gulmarg (Kashmir Valley) !
> 
> So maybe I'm the '*half blood Prince*' !
> 
> On my part - Its a pile of BS ! I'm a Pakistani & thats my caste & creed !
> 
> 
> 
> Yaraa yeh kisss kashmakash mein daaal diyaa mujheee !
> 
> Alexander ka touuu pataa nahiiin paaar Ben Gurion mereii aur @Hyperion kiii Phophiii kaa putaaaar thaaa !




That's fine, you're half Kashmiri not full, me and Dabong seem to be the only pure Kashmiris here. No disrespect intended be proud of who you are. Every Kashmiri in Pakistan knows fight for Kashmir is our personal war that's why we have Azad Kashmir Regiment.

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## Armstrong

DRaisinHerald said:


> Yeah, it's my fav subject out of the 3 I did at A levels.
> 
> EDIT: I just noticed you have 10k + thanks. Last I checked you had less than 3k, lol.



All due to the Naswar Thread, I've routinely raked up 100 thanks a day over there !

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> I know; isn't it spelled as Alawites or something like that ?


No, not in Turkey, here it's a completely different sect. Somethings they say defy logic by any standard, trust me on this one.

What you are referring to is something else, the Alawites of Syria are also a sub set of Shiaism, however, them I understand. Again, the Alvi's of Palestine are completely different story. Had several Alvi gf's from all the territories I mentioned, therefore I know.

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## Bratva

DRaisinHerald said:


> Another Arain
> 
> *sorry for the useless post, lol*



wanna eat onion, thats what we arain eats most and serves our guest the same thing

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## Armstrong

A1Kaid said:


> That's fine, you're half Kashmiri not full, me and Dabong seem to be the only pure Kashmiris here.



You're a Mirpuriyaa right ? 



Hyperion said:


> No, not in Turkey, here it's a completely different sect. Somethings they say defy logic by any standard, trust me on this one.
> 
> What you are referring to is something else, the Alawites of Syria are also a sub set of Shiaism, however, them I understand. Again, the Alvi's of Palestine are completely different story. Had several Alvi gf's from all the territories I mentioned, therefore I know.



Are these the ones who exalt Ali ibn Abi Talib to some funny place of exaltation ?

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## DRaisinHerald

mafiya said:


> wanna eat onion, thats what we arain eats most and serves our guest the same thing



Really? I hate onions

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## Sedqal

Hyperion said:


> No, not in Turkey, here it's a completely different sect. Somethings they say defy logic by any standard, trust me on this one.
> 
> What you are referring to is something else, the Alawites of Syria are also a sub set of Shiaism, however, them I understand. Again, the Alvi's of Palestine are completely different story. *Had several Alvi gf's from all the territories I mentioned, therefore I know.*




Everyone is having so much fun

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## Hyperion

mafiya said:


> Alvies are the sunni offshoots of alawaties.


Respectfully no mate. Alvis of TR are still very much Shia, however, with some very very very very weird beliefs.

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## A1Kaid

Sedqal said:


> Here is some help for you Armstrong




Lol Kashmiris don't claim descent from Sikander that's the Kalash who do.


PS nice photoshop of Kashmir look-alike flag.

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## Hyperion

Nope. That was long long time ago. Past seven years, I have been with only one person, love of my life! 



Sedqal said:


> [/B]
> 
> Everyone is having so much fun


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## A1Kaid

Armstrong said:


> You're a Mirpuriyaa right ?
> 
> 
> 
> Are these the ones who exalt Ali ibn Abi Talib to some funny place of exaltation ?





> You're a Mirpuriyaa right ?



Lol, yeah right. No I'm not, Mirpuris are not authentic Kashmiri people they do however reside in Kashmiri land.


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## Sedqal

A1Kaid said:


> Lol Kashmiris don't claim descent from Sikander that's the Kalash who do.



Sorry, I thought Kashmiris are so goray chittay because they were a part of Alexander's army who stayed there. Some anti-butt ppl say they used to eat too much, so Alexander's army ran away one day leaving them behind  Anyway I love my Kashmiri brethren.

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## RazPaK

I'm going to try to come up with a new board game in Pakistan called Ethnic Cleansing.


Anybody want to invest?

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## DRaisinHerald

A1Kaid said:


> Lol, yeah right. No I'm not, Mirpuris are not authentic Kashmiri people they do however reside in Kashmiri land.



Mirpuris are like a group of people right between Punjabis and Kashmiris; a bit more inclined to the Punjabi side though.

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> Are these the ones who exalt Ali ibn Abi Talib to some funny place of exaltation ?


No dude, seriously, they are one very very secretive bunch. They'd sleep with you but wouldn't divulge much information.

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## DRaisinHerald

RazPaK said:


> I'm going to try to come up with a new board game in Pakistan called Ethnic Cleansing.
> 
> 
> Anybody want to invest?



And who's your first target?

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## Armstrong

A1Kaid said:


> Lol, yeah right. No I'm not, Mirpuris are not authentic Kashmiri people they do however reside in Kashmiri land.



Then what are you ?

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## Sedqal

Hyperion said:


> Nope. That was long long time ago. Past seven years, I have been with only one person, love of my life!



After playing the field, everyone sticks to their love of life

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## Hyperion

RazPaK said:


> I'm going to try to come up with a new board game in Pakistan called Ethnic Cleansing.
> 
> 
> Anybody want to invest?



I'm in. Tell me the exact number that you have in mind. Draw up a contact.

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## RazPaK

DRaisinHerald said:


> And who's your first target?



Pakistani awam.

I'm sure it'll be a hit with so many racists in Pakistan.

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> No dude, seriously, they are one very very secretive bunch. They'd sleep with you but wouldn't divulge much information.



Yaraa the only Alvis I know off are the ones who took pagan or gnostic religious traditions of the land & wrapped it up into an Allah-Muhammad-Ali thing...kinda like the Christian concept of Trinity ! 

But then again you should check out some of them Druze !

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## Hashshāshīn

DRaisinHerald said:


> Mirpuris are like a group of people right between Punjabis and Kashmiris; a bit more inclined to the Punjabi side though.



Mirpuris in UK have given a bad name to all Pakistanis. Most of them were farmers when they came over and carried on the legacy of not learning. Mirpuris are uneducated and have a strong 'gang mentality'.


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## Armstrong

DRaisinHerald said:


> Mirpuris are like a group of people right between Punjabis and Kashmiris; a bit more inclined to the Punjabi side though.



Ethnic Kashmiris don't consider them proper Kashmiris. Come to think of it my Dad's side of the family doesn't consider the people from GB, Ladakh or even Jammu as proper Kashmiris; for them if you ain't from the Valley & from one of a select few number of castes then you ain't a Kashmiri no matter how much you masquerade as such ! 

A gigantic pile of turd worthy of being dumped at that sh*thole called Old Trafford, is what I think of all of this !


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## DRaisinHerald

&#7716;ashsh&#257;sh&#299;n;3743360 said:


> Mirpuris in UK have given a bad name to all Pakistanis. Most of them were farmers when they came over and carried on the legacy of not learning. Mirpuris are uneducated and have a strong 'gang mentality'.



Well, I wouldn't say they are 'not learning'. The gang culture however is very strong here. It's like black people all over again

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## Hyperion

Yara, the weirdest people I ever met was in Iraq, long time back. I don't know what they call themselves, but they have been worshipping satan as a prophet for the past several millennia. And the logic with which they defended their beliefs was simply mind boggling. So many different people in this world. Such a wonderful place! 




Armstrong said:


> Yaraa the only Alvis I know off are the ones who took pagan or gnostic religious traditions of the land & wrapped it up into an Allah-Muhammad-Ali thing...kinda like the Christian concept of Trinity !
> 
> But then again you should check out some of them Druze !

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## A1Kaid

Sedqal said:


> Sorry, I thought Kashmiris are so goray chittay because they were a part of Alexander's army who stayed there. Some anti-butt ppl say they used to eat too much, so Alexander's army ran away one day leaving them behind  Anyway I love my Kashmiri brethren.




"Eat too much" that is just some Punjabi stereotype, if you actually look at photos of people in Kashmir vast majority are fit people. In Pakistan some Kashmiris are fat after adopting local Punjabi dietary habits like in Lahore or Gujranwala, and yes Kashmiris have good cuisine.


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Yara, the weirdest people I ever met was in Iraq, long time back. I don't know what they call themselves, but they have been worshipping satan as a prophet for the past several millennia. And the logic with which they defended their beliefs was simply mind boggling. So many different people in this world. Such a wonderful place!



I've heard about them !  

My Grandad was the first one to tell me about them & he met them as part of the British Indian Army being posted in the Middle East before he was shipped to Post-Rommel North Africa !

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## Sedqal

A1Kaid said:


> "Eat too much" that is just some Punjabi stereotype, if you actually look at photos of people in Kashmir vast majority are fit people. In Pakistan some Kashmiris are fat after adopting local Punjabi dietary habits like in Lahore or Gujranwala, and yes Kashmiris have good cuisine.



Haha I know it dude. It was a lame attempt at humor

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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Let me tell you and other members here, havi sultan is making up things, with all rape of mother and crap. I was smiling at his funny lies, but i think he is crossing lines. If he is telling truth, then he should post links .



Luffy, you have lied twice and on both counts you have rendered no apology whatsoever. One was about Afghanis_hehe insulting Pashtuns which he would never do because he had a Pashtun Turi mother. The second time was your insidious claim that someone on that forum had told you I had told them I am a son of sherbano and yousuf khan. It is part of the reason I am enraged with you and suspect you of being a paid agent. It is possible though... because on that site Admin Khan hates me. He even said he thought I was related to Altaf. lol. 

Next is your list of allegations which could put you to shame anywhere and destroy your credibility. Here is a list:*
AGAINST MEMBERS:
Astanosh Khan is a Hindko speaker.
Rescue ranger is a non-pashtun.
Afghanis_hehe is anti-pashtun and insulted ahmed shah baba.
Havi Sultan is insincere.
AGAINST PASHTUN PERSONALITIES AND TRIBES:
Khattaks and Niazi's are historically traitors.
Imran Khan is non-pashtun cauz he lives with Punjabis
Abdul Qayyum Khan is a Kashmiri even though he called himself Pashtun.
You also tried to discredit people like Pir baba and Pir Roshan by disrespecting Sufi's struggle for Pashtuns.*

Add to that your claim that Hyperion was a Wazir. I hope before denying it you check the thread (as you were saying I have started lying-no matter it is possible you forgot):
http://www.defence.pk/forums/social...-quaid-s-monument-demolished-peshawar-16.html
.... read it extremely carefully though this can be slightly painstakingly.

About abassina he said horrible things about his mother. I can't believe you are defending him now as you were then, not only that supporting him and adding insults of your own. Its quite sickening how you are capable of doing this. I request you to stop this mission Luffy. Its very wrong and it's a horrid betrayal to your country. If you don't love it at least respect the choice of lar pashtuns who drained their blood for Pakistan. You should be willing to criticize the murder of the two Pakistanis/Pashtuns.

Finding posts there is a painful task which may take hours... I have done it in the past to show your horrid face to people on this forum and have no interest in doing so again. I stand by my words. I do not lie, Luffy, I hide things and that alos for the better but for 2 years I have not told a lie whether the issue is family or whatever and I plan to keep it that way. I stand by my statement. Mustafa1919 who is a moderator called Jinnah horrid names and called Pakistan a British ***-birth. These are the people you defend.

You should feel ashamed. But the only time you feel ashamed is when someone talks about Afghanistan or Afghan (Afghanistan) women... your sense of honor which in your allies-the taliban often results in beheading innocent people hitting the roof. A lot of women at heera mandi, according to documentary maker Asif who I happen to know were Afghans (Nation) who happen to make up heera mandi which your fellow Afghans never seem to mention when they are insulting Punjabi women and lar Pashtun women for loss of nang and morals, including referring to Peshawar heartland of Pashtuns as heera mandi culture. You can find the thread... the poster was shadowgovernor and kalewal's old ID. Its obvious as daylight that their hate includes lar Pashtuns... but you are blind. They didn't just insult Jinnah... they continuously attacked our way of speaking Pashto, Urdu being mixed with it (despite being the Farsi-zabaan monkeys they are) they attacked our customs and way of life. If we were loyal to Pakistan... it was worse. 

Never once did you raise your voice against all this hate. Fun, it seems when we put you in the spotlight you feel ants crawling and stinging your buttocks? You should be ashamed, Luffy. These others... you can win with sweet words... not me. I saw your true face there. 



> Fun time over havi, now prepare yourelf for a e-war.



I understand that you have become a champion at the art of e-war going from forum to forum with your agenda... but I unfortunately have a lot of other concerns to look at such as my beloved people... also I spend time fighting bigots where I see them. I wouldn't even have to time to try and drill sense into your head if I wasn't sick which forced me to my laptop. 

But I understand that complicated words like "e-war" are often incorporated by illiterate people to sound sagacious. For example a month ago when I offered to give a beggar a job if he stopped begging not... he used the word "technician," in his sorry little narration of his list of skills. When I asked him what it means he failed to provide an explanation. 

I suspect with your level of intelligence, e-war actually means throwing stones at your computer until there are cracks on the screen and bashing at the keys in unalterable rage, which is i might add a reaction of an orangutan when he sees his first computer. 

In short Luffy... read the above example carefully because there is often meaning within words. I will explain in simple words because it is not in your capability to comprehend. You are incapable of engaging in an e-war. I am an author, have written for years, am completing a book and have written dozens of articles and papers which may be found on my site. I have studied history and culture... you lack the knowledge and literacy for an e-war.  But you excel at character assassination, obfuscation of history and casting doubts upon someone's character. That I do not fear for I am a nationalist. My reputation means nothing because we Nationalists do nothing for it but for our Nation which includes Pashtuns... obfuscation of history, culture and reality... i usually make sure I reply to those luffy which is why you are afraid of having a debate... I can see it clearly.

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## Hashshāshīn

DRaisinHerald said:


> Well, I wouldn't say they are 'not learning'. The gang culture however is very strong here. It's like black people all over again


I was studying in the UK, at night, all I saw was groups of them hanging around streets and they attack any non-brown people that go past. Most of them are very chavvy and unpleasant to talk to. But that's just me. I understand why British people hate 'pak*s', they think Mirpuris represent all Pakistanis.

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## Hyperion

Dude, they wear all white, and look like angels. Trust me! 

Btw, I have travelled a lot, back packing with no worries. Best part is, my fiancé loves such adventures. 



Armstrong said:


> I've heard about them !
> 
> My Grandad was the first one to tell me about them & he met them as part of the British Indian Army being posted in the Middle East before he was shipped to Post-Rommel North Africa !

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## DRaisinHerald

&#7716;ashsh&#257;sh&#299;n;3743376 said:


> I was studying in the UK, at night, all I saw was groups of them hanging around streets and they attack any non-brown people that go past. Most of them are very chavvy and unpleasant to talk to. But that's just me. I understand why British people hate 'pak*s', they think Mirpuris represent all Pakistanis.



It's all quite unfortunate..


Btw, Havisultan must be pissed his thread has been raped by off-topic posts so badly

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Dude, they wear all white, and look like angels. Trust me!
> 
> Btw, I have travelled a lot, back packing with no worries. Best part is, my fiancé loves such adventures.



So are you taking her to Waziristan ?  

Aur Bhabi kooo bhiii Fiqh-Buttiyaaa par leiii aoooo...please ! 

Nihari touu agaiii busss Harisiii a jaiii gaa tou 'Confirmation' puriii ho jaiii giiii !

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> So are you taking her to Waziristan ?
> 
> Aur Bhabi kooo bhiii Fiqh-Buttiyaaa par leiii aoooo...please !
> 
> Nihari touu agaiii busss Harisiii a jaiii gaa tou 'Confirmation' puriii ho jaiii giiii !



She has already been there and many other places, twice. It's all A-OK, no worries, no one is ever going to kidnap her! 

Btw, my sister taught her nehari, payee, biryani and couple south Indian dishes that I like, back when she was a undergrad student!

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## Armstrong

@Hyperion : Yaraa if I'm 'half blooded' touu phirr you're not a proper Pashtun too !  

How do we work around this & show our respective faces in our communities ? 

And you're kids & my kids in turn would be even less Pashtuns & Kashmiris respectively ! 

Yeh kiyaa dilemma mein daal diyaa haiii isss neiii !

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## A1Kaid

Hyperion said:


> Yara, the weirdest people I ever met was in Iraq, long time back. I don't know what they call themselves, but they have been worshipping satan as a prophet for the past several millennia. And the logic with which they defended their beliefs was simply mind boggling. So many different people in this world. Such a wonderful place!




I think you're referring to the Yazidi people...


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## Hyperion

Why do you care so much about what others think? Because of such marriages, my IQ and that of my sis is in the 99.9th percentile. I say, we mix more!  



Armstrong said:


> @Hyperion : Yaraa if I'm 'half blooded' touu phirr you're not a proper Pashtun too !
> 
> How do we work around this & show our respective faces in our communities ?
> 
> And you're kids & my kids in turn would be even less Pashtuns & Kashmiris respectively !
> 
> Yeh kiyaa dilemma mein daal diyaa haiii isss neiii !

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Why do you care so much about what others think? Because of such marriages, my IQ and that of my sis is in the 99.9th percentile. I say, we mix more!



MENSA ke member hiii bannn jaooo *Khan Sahib* !  

Nah I don't care I was just babbling away !

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## Hyperion

The day Madonna joins it, i'll follow suit! 



Armstrong said:


> MENSA ke member hiii bannn jaooo *Khan Sahib* !
> 
> Nah I don't care I was just babbling away !

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## A1Kaid

Armstrong said:


> Dunno they (Mom's side) say they're *Alvi Khokhar*; God Knows what that means !



Wow bro I am sorry to hear that the Hadiths talk about the Alvi people as a cursed people by Allah. Your blood an soul is cursed by the Alvi jinns that lurk within you, they were a race of magicians and practices demonic which craft in Baghdad many centuries ago. I remember learning that in order to get rid of the Alvi jinns you must follow these steps.

First find a remote area near water, start a fire in the middle you must be alone and go around the fire seven time and you must pray in the direction of the fire. However, regular Islamic prayer will not suffice you have to use the prayer of the Yazidi, the Yazidis are the only known people to have successfully remove Alvi Jinns from the bodies of humans, their prayer will save you. Problem is you must travel to northern Iraq to the secret village of the Yazidi live with them and learn the prayer.


Do it before its late.


http://mahmoods-thoughts-mahmood.blogspot.com/2012/09/shaitans-mutilatory-work.html?m=1

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## xyxmt

Sher Malang said:


> This not going to work here anymore, try something better that was the trend during 90 to 94 not any more it's 2012



Really Afghanistan changed in last 10 years, I am sure 2 million refugees have gone back sweet home now


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## KS

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> * Cleaver move by PA to stop the pashtuns on both sides getting united. *



True...ISI has been doing that from day one to pre-empt Pasthuns getting united and demanding Pashtunistan. They know that is their worst nightmare given the history of deadly raids carried out by the Pathans into the settled areas of Pakistan inhabited by the Punjabis.

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## Hyperion

Mate, any idea about the subscription of Pashtuns within the ISI? We practically run two different divisions of it. Let us not also forget about the numbers of Pashtuns within the bureaucratic setup.



KS said:


> True...ISI has been doing that from day one to pre-empt Pasthuns getting united and demanding Pashtunistan. They know that is their worst nightmare given the history of deadly raids carried out by the Pathans into the settled areas of Pakistan inhabited by the Punjabis.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

@haviZsultan
Some one has told me you are descendant of adam khan and durkhanai? How do you feel about it? 
By the way i have reported you for saying that heera mundi is filled with Afghan women. I am not sure whether pakistani mods here take action against degrading remarks about afghans, buts its my moral obligation to report you.


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Mate, any idea about the subscription of Pashtuns within the ISI? We practically run two different divisions of it. Let us not also forget about the numbers of Pashtuns within the bureaucratic setup.



You're not following your own advice !  

Its been 6 months here & you still can't recognize a troll post !

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## Hyperion

I can, sometimes when I'm bored, I like to smack! 



Armstrong said:


> You're not following your own advice !
> 
> Its been 6 months here & you still can't recognize a troll post !

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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> @haviZsultan
> Some one has told me you are descendant of adam khan and durkhanai? How do you feel about it?
> *By the way i have reported you for saying that heera mundi is filled with Afghan women*. I am not sure whether pakistani mods here take action against degrading remarks about afghans, buts its my moral obligation to report you.


 @haviZsultan : If you did say that then yaraa aisaaa nahin kehnaa chahiyee thaaa !  

By the way *Luffy* speaking of Heera Mandi, have you gone to Cuco's Den in the Shahi Mohalaa (right next to the Badshahi Mosque); the view is awesome ! 



A1Kaid said:


> Wow bro I am sorry to hear that the Hadiths talk about the Alvi people as a cursed people by Allah. Your blood an soul is cursed by the Alvi jinns that lurk within you, they were a race of magicians and practices demonic which craft in Baghdad many centuries ago. I remember learning that in order to get rid of the Alvi jinns you must follow these steps.
> 
> First find a remote area near water, start a fire in the middle you must be alone and go around the fire seven time and you must pray in the direction of the fire. However, regular Islamic prayer will not suffice you have to use the prayer of the Yazidi, the Yazidis are the only known people to have successfully remove Alvi Jinns from the bodies of humans, their prayer will save you. Problem is you must travel to northern Iraq to the secret village of the Yazidi live with them and learn the prayer.
> 
> 
> Do it before its late.
> 
> 
> http://mahmoods-thoughts-mahmood.blogspot.com/2012/09/shaitans-mutilatory-work.html?m=1


 @Hyperion : Yeh hamariii pure blooded princess kiyaa bol rahiii haiii ! 

Khair anyhow *A1kaid* - It was good humor !

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## KS

Hyperion said:


> Mate, any idea about the subscription of Pashtuns within the ISI? We practically run two different divisions of it. Let us not also forget about the numbers of Pashtuns within the bureaucratic setup.



Well let me give my perspective on it - the Pashtuns in the Pak Army/ISI have become desified/Indified....Historically Pathans were never considered a part of the subcontinent..the traditional boundaries of the subcontinent atleast - for over a millenia after the fall of the Hindu shahi kings - was the Indus river with the Pathans playing the role of the aggressors and the areas east of Indus (usually the Punjab region) being their raiding grounds with one small exception under the Sikh empire.. Same goes for the Baloch..and as far as the accession/referendum is concerned it was just a sham with the main political party boycotting and even then the referendum going through with a wafer thin majority..So the Pathans in the Army/ISI/bureaucratic setup can be counted upon only having their interests in their mind (which is siding with Pakistan) than with even their own blood.

Also with the loss of East Pakistan, other Pakistanis have become utterly paranoid of anyone even identifying with their ethnicity proudly that those people are denounced as traitors, even though they value their national identity as importantly as their ethnic identity..

And honestly I am baffled how non-pathans like havi can somehow adopt one ethnicity and start lecturing born pathans how they should act. I mean seriously. I can understand that for Mohajirs pakistan is the last resort because they wont be tolerated in India again..but honestly that is not the same for others.

Anyway the only reason I'm even seeing this discussion is because of my principle that a man can have multiple identities like ethnic, linguistic, faith etc and still be a good patriotic citizen, whereas this forum seems to have been filled with a boatload of people who thinks the only identity a pakistani can have is his national indentity (+ his faith) and all others need to be discarded.

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## Armstrong

@Nair saab : Aur kaiseiii mizaaag hain huzooor ke ?

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## DRaisinHerald

KS said:


> Well let me give my perspective on it - the Pashtuns in the Pak Army/ISI have become desified/Indified....Historically Pathans were never considered a part of the subcontinent..



And who cares about that..? Pakistan isn't India, meaning it's not really exclusive to any geographical region.
Besides, states like Arunachal Pradesh and even Assam, Sikkim etc have not been part of India historically.


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## Armstrong

@DRaisinHerald : Dude Biology mein BSc kar ke kiyaa karooo geiii ?  

Future plans kiyaa hai ?


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## DRaisinHerald

Armstrong said:


> @DRaisinHerald : Dude Biology mein BSc kar ke kiyaa karooo geiii ?
> 
> Future plans kiyaa hai ?



I do have plans, but I don't wanna mention them in case 'nazar' etc. comes and haunts me.. 
Besides, I would probably flop any other degree I try to do. I just had this interest in Biology since high school; it's one of the primary reasons I chose it..

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## haviZsultan

Hyperion said:


> Why do you care so much about what others think? Because of such marriages, my IQ and that of my sis is in the 99.9th percentile. I say, we mix more!



I agree. Inter-marriages can be the cure to Pakistan's ethnic problem and has been proposed by his Lordship Zerab... one of our leaders. Also being inbred ruins your gene pool. All researchers say it. Its an old arab thing we adapted anyway which wanted to keep their tribe pure... whatever that means. In this time and age... quite a foolish concept. Backward people like Luffy and gang may still practice it. 



DRaisinHerald said:


> It's all quite unfortunate..
> 
> 
> Btw, Havisultan must be pissed his thread has been raped by off-topic posts so badly



I have become a grouch. Politics is basically the only thing I know. I swear you don't know me. There are like these reports and all these figures in them I have memorized by heart. For example I can tell you how many ghost schools there are in Pakistan, how many planes we have, PIA's exact losses in year 2011... i have all that memorized. Part of it is a result of being sick. Rest is well... raw nationalism. 

People are scared of getting in a debate with me. lol. But I guess being at home for a while and being sick (have an ulcer-some other issues too) has basically got me a little locked up at home. So all I have is my laptop for the whoooooole day.

Otherwise I would very keenly take part in this. I am actually. But you are right... the thread is full of off-topic posts. Armstrong, is spamming allowed or is this a special privilege given to you?



Armstrong said:


> So are you taking her to Waziristan ?



My friend had complains. Orakzai larki thi in Canada... but she like mingled with guys... pretty easy-going family. Nationalists like me. But never had a boyfriend or anything... or i didn't hear of it. She'd look at guys and say he's cute just to stay in the conversation with the other girls and stuff etc... but never like u know have a relationship and stuff. Nice person and upright. Active as a social worker too. 

She would get a little angry when someone asked about Orakzai agency... she didn't think of the place too highly I must say though she defended the people there against an outsider... with fellow Pakistanis she would just be very negative and people from big cities love asking questions of tribals (like you @Armstrong) but she would get annoyed. I don't know why. She used to be a little obscure when she answered... like she would rather like to avoid the selected topic. 

One day she got angry when I asked too much:

"Man I stayed locked up in a room there for 4 years, no freedom, no nothing and people just kill people for no reason. You like it so much-its all a male-dominated society full of hot-heads... go there shoot guns or something and come back when your brain kicks in again."

She was also the one friend of mine whose family hated the Afghans. I don't know what their history was but they hated them so much their hate could literally melt the snow off the mountains of the Hazarajat. 

A friend of her told me that she has worked tirelessly to improve things in Orakzai... make it normal for women to be seen in the main bazaar or something. But she grew frustrated. In many ways she was like me... serving the nationalist cause for ever yet we all know neither the government gives a damn... nor anyone else. We will die in obscurity... but in our nationalism we smile at every difficulty. 

That was the story of a Nationalist from FATA and if Luffy or Sher Malang spewed this rubbish there... oh man... you wouldn't like it when she swears. Earlier I heard stories of it... she getting pissed off at some Luffy-like person who came up to her and asked her why she was talking to Punjabis. 

But one day at her college I swear to god she was threatening her professor because he messed up her grades or something! I don't know what happened after that but no one dared to raise the topic because she got real angry.

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## DRaisinHerald

@Armstrong
What are you doing nowadays?

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## Sedqal

KS said:


> Well let me give my perspective on it - the Pashtuns in the Pak Army/ISI have become desified/Indified....Historically Pathans were never considered a part of the subcontinent..the traditional boundaries of the subcontinent atleast - for over a millenia after the fall of the Hindu shahi kings - was the Indus river with the Pathans playing the role of the aggressors and the areas east of Indus (usually the Punjab region) being their raiding grounds with one small exception under the Sikh empire.. Same goes for the Baloch..and as far as the accession/referendum is concerned it was just a sham with the main political party boycotting and even then the referendum going through with a wafer thin majority..So the Pathans in the Army/ISI/bureaucratic setup can be counted upon only having their interests in their mind (which is siding with Pakistan) than with even their own blood.
> 
> Also with the loss of East Pakistan, other Pakistanis have become utterly paranoid of anyone even identifying with their ethnicity proudly that those people are denounced as traitors, even though they value their national identity as importantly as their ethnic identity..
> 
> And honestly I am baffled how non-pathans like havi can somehow adopt one ethnicity and start lecturing born pathans how they should act. I mean seriously. I can understand that for Mohajirs pakistan is the last resort because they wont be tolerated in India again..but honestly that is not the same for others.
> 
> Anyway the only reason I'm even seeing this discussion is because of my principle that a man can have multiple identities like ethnic, linguistic, faith etc and still be a good patriotic citizen, whereas this forum seems to have been filled with a boatload of people who thinks the only identity a pakistani can have is his national indentity (+ his faith) and all others need to be discarded.



That is not the case. Public remembers East Pakistan as a tragedy and common citizen is least bothered or even aware about these issues. 

Your perspective is highly biased .


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## A1Kaid

Guys, no need to reply to that Indian troll it's not like we welcome his opinion any ways...

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## Armstrong

@haviZsultan : Tell your friend a big 'thank you' from me ! She seems like a really nice person & undoubtedly a big asset for Pakistan ! 

On the 'spamming' bit - Dude, would you rather this d*ck measuring continues on or our enemies teaching us the intricacies of Pakistan because the last 14 or so pages sure haven't been a constructive debate ! I just pop up with my remarks simply to break the ice. 

Sorry if I offended you - I'd quit the thread now !

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## Sedqal

@luffy, I think Havi writes these long posts because he is a writer and used to writing. In any case I enjoy both yours and Havi's posts. Never thought Pushtoons tribalism would be so complex

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## Hyperion

Yeah me also out of here. One ANA foot soldier riled us all up. Ganda bacha Hyperion, for taking the bait! 



Armstrong said:


> @haviZsultan : Tell your friend a big 'thank you' from me ! She seems like a really nice person & undoubtedly a big asset for Pakistan !
> 
> On the 'spamming' bit - Dude, would you rather this d*ck measuring continues on or our enemies teaching us the intricacies of Pakistan because the last 14 or so pages sure haven't been a constructive debate ! I just pop up with my remarks simply to break the ice.
> 
> Sorry if I offended you - I'd quite the thread now !



You haven't seen 1% of it yet! 



Sedqal said:


> @luffy, I think Havi writes these long posts because he is a writer and used to writing. In any case I enjoy both yours and Havi's posts. *Never thought Pushtoons tribalism would be so complex *

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## KS

DRaisinHerald said:


> And who cares about that..? Pakistan isn't India, meaning it's not really exclusive to any geographical region.
> Besides, states like Arunachal Pradesh and even Assam, Sikkim etc have not been part of India historically.



Your statement is not 100% correct..yet my rebutal would take it entirely offtopic. So I would just say Indians from other parts dont get paranoid when NE people take pride in their ethnic identity or we ask them to completely discard that..something you guys are doing on one guy.



Sedqal said:


> That is not the case. Public remembers East Pakistan as a tragedy and common citizen is least bothered or even aware about these issues.
> 
> Your perspective is highly biased .



Im an Indian and ofcourse it will be biased or _appear_ biased.

Anyway carry on with the discussion.


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## Sedqal

KS said:


> Your statement is not 100% correct..yet my rebutal would take it entirely offtopic. So I would just say Indians from other parts dont get paranoid when NE people take pride in their ethnic identity or we ask them to completely discard that..something you guys are doing on one guy.



India did get paranoid when Punjab asked for autonomy, shenanigans of RSS and other right-wing nutcases is also tolerated because they provide a 1 India narrative. Same reason why Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism is claimed to be Hindu when the same people find it insulting. 

No one is ganging up on anyone, Luffy is a treasured member of PDF whose input is highly appreciated.

[I don't deny that Pakistan has not tried the same with its own religious nuts]


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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> @haviZsultan
> Some one has told me you are descendant of adam khan and durkhanai? How do you feel about it?
> By the way i have reported you for saying that heera mundi is filled with Afghan women. I am not sure whether pakistani mods here take action against degrading remarks about afghans, buts its my moral obligation to report you.



Luffy... I have a strong fear that your inability to use your mind can seriously result in major issues in life in the future and impair your ability to make decisions. Your wife tells you to bring roti you bring dal, she tells you to bring her a cup of tea and you bring a glass of water. She will divorce you in moments

This is what I said Luffy. Read carefully:

You should feel ashamed. But the only time you feel ashamed is when someone talks about Afghanistan or Afghan (Afghanistan) women... your sense of honor which in your allies-the taliban often results in beheading innocent people hitting the roof. *A lot of women at heera mandi, according to documentary maker Asif who I happen to know were Afghans (Nation) who happen to make up heera mandi which your fellow Afghans never seem to mention when they are insulting Punjabi women and lar Pashtun women for loss of nang and morals, including referring to Peshawar heartland of Pashtuns as heera mandi culture. You can find the thread... the poster was shadowgovernor and kalewal's old ID.* Its obvious as daylight that their hate includes lar Pashtuns... but you are blind. They didn't just insult Jinnah... they continuously attacked our way of speaking Pashto, Urdu being mixed with it (despite being the Farsi-zabaan monkeys they are) they attacked our customs and way of life. If we were loyal to Pakistan... it was worse.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/afghan...s-out-pak-afghan-border-12.html#ixzz2GOBlDZlu

Don't put words in my mouth. Those were the words of a friend who is an expert on the matter and knows the treacherous caverns and political/criminal influences that play a part in the running of heera mandi. He has also stated that a lot of these Afghan girls are 12-20 years old and have been kidnapped or sold. It is a very much debatable topic related to this. 

I should have expected that you would ignore the rest of the message. You are a hypocrite and you deserve a smacking from your parents which has made you like you are right now. 



Armstrong said:


> @haviZsultan : If you did say that then yaraa aisaaa nahin kehnaa chahiyee thaaa !



He said it and you believed it. Read the above. Man do you know what those guys say on the other forum. Its exactly stuff like that and never once he raised a finger. The mullah lot there once said Peshawar was heera mandi inspired and had Punjabi/Hindko culture and was the most corrupt of all Pashtun cities. That is the heart of Pashtun culture they are talking about. 

This guy is a complete hypocrite.

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## haviZsultan

Armstrong said:


> @haviZsultan : Tell your friend a big 'thank you' from me ! She seems like a really nice person & undoubtedly a big asset for Pakistan !
> 
> On the 'spamming' bit - Dude, would you rather this d*ck measuring continues on or our enemies teaching us the intricacies of Pakistan because the last 14 or so pages sure haven't been a constructive debate ! I just pop up with my remarks simply to break the ice.
> 
> Sorry if I offended you - I'd quit the thread now !



I am not in proper contact... though she has sniffed me out through my twitter account. I lost contact with 90% of the people I knew. I breathe a little hard and stuff... some issues with stomach pains too. Don't want the troops to see the leader in a greatly attenuated position. I was the head of the Canada chapter... old day, eh. Will miss em.

Yaar, armstrong yaar... tu offense ley gaya... yaar don't man. Its perfectly okay. This lightens up the mood... though perhaps it must be fun reading some of my posts about Luffy and the videos i posted. Maybe I'm an idiot to laugh at my own joke but I laughed a lot when I saw that batman and spiderman video and turned the two kids into Sher Malang and Luffy in my mind. 

I'm all for fun and games man. But politics is an intrinsic part of me... nothing can pull me from it, it comes up everywhere-people usually try to make every effort to avoid it around me. I apologize. @Armstrong you have really helped because with Luffy I would have lost my head.

The thing is i am a moron. I can't bear to see a bigot. I can't see something wrong... I hate corruption, I never break the law (did in the past-yes), and I can't see poverty. You don't know much about me I guess. I have to change something if it is wrong. I have to. I can't sit and do nothing. Back in Canada i started this little graphic design business. Sent everything to a school in Karachi. I want more than anything for Luffy to understand... but in this regard I am a failure. Can do nothing. 

@Hyperion's connections to the ISI he'll know they will never hire me. They pay so many bribes you would go crazy just thinking about it. Also u can never feel sympathy. People are a tool to be used and discarded but agencies are usually cold bastards. We nationalists have members too @Hyperion.

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## Nair saab

Armstrong said:


> @Nair saab : Aur kaiseiii mizaaag hain huzooor ke ?


Theek haii Bhaii... par kya kare aapke iss kushi main to sharif nahi ho sakte ... App bhai bhaioo ke jhagde main Muhalle vallo ka kya kaam ... isiliye comment bhi nahi kar pate is thread pe...

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## haviZsultan

Nair saab said:


> Theek haii Bhaii... par kya kare aapke iss kushi main to sharif nahi ho sakte ... App bhai bhaioo ke jhagde main Muhalle vallo ka kya kaam ... isiliye comment bhi nahi kar pate is thread pe...



Baray innocent sey admi lag rahay hain aap to. Aap pareyshaan nahi ho. @Armstrong kal hum log nair sahab key liyey thread banayey gey.

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## Armstrong

@haviZsultan : I don't take offense !  
@Nair saab : Aur jiii bhabi aur bacheii wagheraa kaiseii hain ?


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## Nair saab

Armstrong said:


> @haviZsultan : I don't take offense !
> @Nair saab : Aur jiii bhabi aur bacheii wagheraa kaiseii hain ?


 Ji main abhi SIngle hoon ready to mingle hoon!!! koi aap ke nazar main haii to bata dena...

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## Sedqal

Nair saab said:


> Ji main abhi SIngle hoon ready to mingle hoon!!! koi aap ke nazar main haii to bata dena...



Open up a singles corner Armstrong and Nair saab.

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## Nair saab

haviZsultan said:


> Baray innocent sey admi lag rahay hain aap to. Aap pareyshaan nahi ho. @Armstrong kal hum log nair sahab key liyey thread banayey gey.


Hume Maaf karo bhaii... App to kisi riyasat ke Sulthan hoon... hume panga nahi lena 



Sedqal said:


> Open up a singles corner Armstrong and Nair saab.


Kamal haii yaar Armstrong 3 shadiyoo ke baad bhi single Kehlate haii

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## Dance

And these people do it again:

jahalat at its peak 

*Torkham border sealed after Afghan army tortures two Pakistani labourers*

PESHAWAR - Security officials on Friday sealed Torkham border after the Afghan National Army (ANA) tortured two Pakistani labourers for the second time in a week.
According to details, truck drivers blocked the road and took out a protest against the alleged torture of two Pakistani truck drivers at the hands of the Afghan officials.Earlier, two truck drivers were heading into Afghanistan seeking work when they were intercepted by Afghan security personnel at a check post, who allegedly subjected the job-seekers to torture while also tearing up their passports and other travelling documents.
The tortured Pakistanis returned back to the Pak-Afghan border where they were joined by other truck drivers who held protests against the treatment meted out by the Afghan security personnel. Drivers had complained that Afghan security personnel routinely harassed and tortured the job-seekers at various check posts situated inside Afghanistan. &#8220;It seems that the Afghan security forces are using these tactics to force Pakistani labourers out of their country,&#8221; they added.
It was not the first time that the Afghan forces had tortured Pakistani labourers. A similar incident had occurred earlier this week on December 22, and the border was closed after 29 Pakistani laborers were tortured by members of the ANA.

Torkham border sealed after Afghan army tortures two Pakistani labourers | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

friendly_troll96 said:


> As if reporting his post will change the fact lol. Go read The Dancing Girls Of Lahore and get a reality check.
> Once you're done reading you can report Louise Brown too.
> Btw, Afghan women in Heera Mandi are known for anal action. I'm not making this up, it's mentioned in the book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although this book is banned in Pakistan, there are some stores in RWP still selling it. I'm not sure if you can get it where you live.



derogatory remarks against afghans. Reported

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## Safriz

Monkey D Luffy said:


> @haviZsultan
> Some one has told me you are descendant of adam khan and durkhanai? How do you feel about it?
> By the way i have reported you for saying that heera mundi is filled with Afghan women. I am not sure whether pakistani mods here take action against degrading remarks about afghans, buts its my moral obligation to report you.



Count in Sohrab goth in Karachi...
Too many Afghan girls are available for prostitution there..Seen it myself...
If you think any country of the world is free of prostitution,you are wrong.



friendly_troll96 said:


> As if reporting his post will change the fact lol. Go read The Dancing Girls Of Lahore and get a reality check.
> Once you're done reading you can report Louise Brown too.
> Btw, Afghan women in Heera Mandi are known for anal action. I'm not making this up, it's mentioned in the book.



you dont need to be that much revealing....
if you want the discussion to remain civil,you should avoid using dirty words....

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Safriz said:


> Count in Sohrab goth in Karachi...
> Too many Afghan girls are available for prostitution there..Seen it myself...
> If you think any country of the world is free of prostitution,you are wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> you dont need to be that much revealing....
> if you want the discussion to remain civil,you should avoid using dirty words....



I live in abbotabad, dont open my mouth.


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## Safriz

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I live in abbotabad, dont open my mouth.


Although i would prefer your gob shut.
But which place hasn't got prostitution?
Dont try to present Afghans as angels...

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## friendly_troll96

Safriz said:


> Count in Sohrab goth in Karachi...
> Too many Afghan girls are available for prostitution there..Seen it myself...
> If you think any country of the world is free of prostitution,you are wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> you dont need to be that much revealing....
> if you want the discussion to remain civil,you should avoid using dirty words....



I just stated what's written in the book.
Edited Anyway.


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## Silverblaze

I have seen many many Pakistanis going out of their way to defend Afghans. They still do not accept the political boundaries between these two countries.

Punjab, Sindh, Kashmir should have been with us while everything west of the Indus should have been left to the people living there. 

Its just my thought - I do not intend to offend anyone.


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## haviZsultan

Safriz said:


> Count in Sohrab goth in Karachi...
> Too many Afghan girls are available for prostitution there..Seen it myself...
> If you think any country of the world is free of prostitution,you are wrong.
> 
> you dont need to be that much revealing....
> if you want the discussion to remain civil,you should avoid using dirty words....



I second Safriz...
@friendlytroll96... no. @friendly_troll96 God is that handle difficult... okay... yeah... we haven't reached that level yet... your comment even shames me though I have constantly called for more discussion on topics that are taboo... because no topic can remain taboo if we are to run our country. 

Prostitution is a major social menace and an issue that needs to be curbed. Like other things it needs to be discussed and solutions presented but I have also seen a lack of debate on the matter here. Personally I'd like us to be more liberated about that sort of thing... because it is indeed a discussion topic. No reason civil discussions cannot be allowed... but I guess it's just our pre-concieved notions at play again and turning everything into an izzat ka mamla.

I mean I could tell my friend Asif to take a survey about what ethnic groups the workers there belong to and Luffy will still turn it into an ethnic issue with his butt hurting. The issue is the high noses of people like luffy misusing the issue... he got offended (Afghanistan being his spiritual motherland where his fellow Pashtuns have been enslaved) and started insulting Hindkowan/Hazarewal people. 

Basically I am an independent journalist... people collect info for me or I do from the internet and I write articles. I have learned that no issue can be ignored or treated as a non-issue. For example there are 20,000 minors involved in prostitution in Pakistan... if we are just going to think of it as a dirty topic and ignore this... how are we going to suggest solutions? Shouldn't these kids be in school? Shouldn't we be making efforts to ensure it? This site is for debate and should remain so. If we run from topics too controversial... we hamper debate. As a journalist I definitely can't avoid a topic because it is by our perceptions "ganda"

I would advise mods and admins to consider this before quickly deleting posts that talk about this. If it is an offensive topic @WebMaster, @Oscar @Aeronaut or @TaimiKhan can deal with it. Also do note Luffy is a very scandalous finger-pointer who thrives at making allegations like a entertainment reporter looking for ratings. My last comment was stated to make a very solid point. These same comments are made on pashtunforums... luffy there has no issue with them. Has even participated in bashing people there. 

By the way there was no need to mention that yaar. Be careful what you say about the topic. That could be another reason mods and people are worried about allowing the topic. 



Monkey D Luffy said:


> I live in abbotabad, dont open my mouth.



Here Luffy goes on the ethnic tangent again and it lies only on Safriz to stop this thread from becoming one where an ethnic war is being fought, about which I doubt his ability. 

Luffy, dear child... you are not a hero from some cheap third rate Afghan (nation) movie made in Kunar running to save a bar Pashtun heroine every time you hear a word about "Afghanistan." Its a nation, its going to be criticized. You had no problem with Pakistan being called all these things on that site you hypocrite... you would always be defending those Afghans (nation). Proves where your loyalty really lies doesn't it? Very debauched of you to act different here and completely be a separate person there. 

Safriz... he is trying to pull you into an ethnic trap... its in my paper... do not fall into it at any cost! Instead learn his history and culture and beat him at it. 

We are very weak on the ethnic front, because we can't look at the world without disassociating ourselves with these and look down at other ethnic groups. This is why I always tell you. Luffy's entire purpose for being on this site is to make Afghans (nation) happy by starting ethnic wars between our people. I am sure like him, a lot of MQM accounts too are being operated from the sidelines by Afghan KHAD and RAW. 

He has been bested in debate many times so that he now runs like an Indian actress does just when the guy starts to get too close... probably leaving the dupatta of her sari having a lack of shame...

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## haviZsultan

Silverblaze said:


> I have seen many many Pakistanis going out of their way to defend Afghans. They still do not accept the political boundaries between these two countries.
> *
> Punjab, Sindh, Kashmir should have been with us while everything west of the Indus should have been left to the people living there. *
> 
> Its just my thought - I do not intend to offend anyone.



How about we sell Sindh, Punjab and Kashmir to India since we are selling Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan to the Afghans (nation)? Whats the point of having a Pakistan where other races don't want 30 million of our citizens? How about we adopt the same attitude. 

Your comment is like a slap to Pakistani Pashtuns who have struggled for this Pakistani sarzameen with their blood, sweat and tears. That is a very Afghan (nation) suggestion and I suspect you might be serving their interests. It was left to the people living there. Learn something. That was why it went to Pakistan... not to Afghanistan and not to India. Don't start drawing conclusions reading posts from an Afghan (nation) terrorist. Even in 46 we the Muslim league won 17 of the total seats in assembly. 

People like you threw away Bangladesh with the same nonchallance, the same remarks... discounting the efforts of an entire race just to maintain their hegemonic power, their place at the top which was being threatened by a politically awakened majority of Bengalis.... you ignore the struggle of Abdur Rab Nishtar, the blood of Sher khan with an arrogant shrug of the shoulder. By the way why do I suspect you are on pashtunforums? There was a retard from my own community there. I wanted to bash him on the head. He never defended Pakistan and when I did he tried to actually stop me... was from Canada like you and did not think of himself as a Pakistan.  

Karachi? Is that you, you dumb MQM supporter? Looks like you guys are interested in increasing the 30% directors of radio Pakistan rate to 90%... when is Jinnahpur demand coming? Syed Jamaluddin who knew Altaf has already made it... even had secret meetings with Altaf as my contact informs me.

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## Safriz

Haviz open another thread on prostitution,and we can discuss it there....
But such thread will be a big workload for moderation team..


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## Safriz

^^^^ Mind your language...
Post reported.

^^^^ Mind your language...
Post reported.


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## RazPaK

Yaar, baat karnay ki leyeh lehaz hona chayhe.

Kya app lok dunya ko dikaray ho?


Humaray kahndaan main humari asi tarbeeat toh ney hui.


Shayd main itna modern ney hun.

Magar aap sharif ban kar roh aur apnay points exchange karo.


Yeh pesha dunya ka sab se purana hain.

Har mulak main hain.


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## haviZsultan

^^^^^

Its been a long day and it being 7 am in Karachi... its time for me to stretch my arms, yawn and go to sleep. This is the time when we need @Armstrong to diffuse some tension... sorry I never meant to tell you to get off the thread. 
@RazPaK no one is supporting this guys comments... he shouldn't have written that. Both Safriz and me condemned it. But the thing is are we going to limit discussion because the topic is taboo?... its a decision for the wider PDF community, the admins, think tanks, mods and everyone else to make. I am rebellious and have immense difficulty submitting to authority but I respect rules now... those made by Pakistanis anyway. 

My suggestion is... with a total population of 20,000 minors and more than 100,000 adults involved in this business (prostitution)... its not something that we should be ignoring as a topic of discussion. Best however if it does not contain discussion of specifics and intricate details. Also it does not become a contest... like a comparison between Karachi and Lahore red light districts. 

There are pitfalls but then again... we are a forum... and my purpose here is not even debate... but to find solutions to issues and change the mindset. You would notice I rarely visit. It is because I usually seek to incorporate the knowledge acquired in my debates somewhere. Currently I am accumulating information on an ethnic paper that discusses our issues. Thus more reason to debate. I think @Safriz is realizing that the topic should be open to discussion. 

I am a journalist. I have learned that for a reporter ignoring a topic for whatever reason is not a great idea, neither often is filtering things. That's a different thing that today there is no place for a person who loves Pakistan so my articles almost never get published. Still hope drives us Nationalists on.  

Don't fight guys. If you look at where all of this started it was a very simple statement based on the statements of a documentary director friend who knew a few things about Heera mandi which Luffy turned into a sleazy movie. This heera mandi is discussed in almost every third thread on the forum he visits (the third one where you don't have an account yet @RazPaK) and it usually includes insults to Punjabis and Pashtuns of Peshawar but his vociferous opposition here disappears for cool acquiescence there... he is like a kid. Naughty when the parents are away... very good boy when parents around. 

But this is his specialization field. Exaggerating, lying... he has perfected those mendacious arts and no one can beat him in this regard. So chillax. There's nothing worse than being led to a fight by a bigot. I really have to admire the decision to promote armstrong to a position of importance... but maybe he should more rightfully be a moderator-or perhaps a new thing called-tension reliever?  That sounds ridiculous... will have to come up with a name and suggest it sometime to @WebMaster. 

Sleep well. And stop fighting. @RazPaK and @Armstrong... you two really. I don't know what you saw... but you don't know this guy from the other site. For a long time even I stayed quiet on him due to son of mountains. You don't know any of them. Spend one day on that forum and you will sleep depressed for 10 days. Not a day passes without an abuse to Pakistan. He can't paint himself as a victim just because he was better than the rest. He sympathizes and supports Afghanistans position all the time. Still hasn't said a word about the 2 Afridis killed from Landi Kotal...

Just like he never said a word when Peshawar was being insulted. There is even a thread about Marwats being traitors to Pashtuns because historically they voted for Muslim League. Still his blood didn't boil over how these northerners Farsiwan supported people dare to insult lar Pashtuns.

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## Secur

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> * Cleaver move by PA to stop the pashtuns on both sides getting united. *



When were they united in the way you are thinking ? 

 ... Or possibly you missed reading how the " Khasadar force " rushed to the scene to stop it and even arrested some of the assailants  ...

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## RazPaK

haviZsultan said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Its been a long day and it being 7 am in Karachi... its time for me to stretch my arms, yawn and go to sleep. This is the time when we need @Armstrong to diffuse some tension... sorry I never meant to tell you to get off the thread.
> @RazPaK no one is supporting this guys comments... he shouldn't have written that. Both Safriz and me condemned it. But the thing is are we going to limit discussion because the topic is taboo?... its a decision for the wider PDF community, the admins, think tanks, mods and everyone else to make. I am rebellious and have immense difficulty submitting to authority but I respect rules now... those made by Pakistanis anyway.
> 
> My suggestion is... with a total population of 20,000 minors and more than 100,000 adults involved in this business (prostitution)... its not something that we should be ignoring as a topic of discussion. Best however if it does not contain discussion of specifics and intricate details. Also it does not become a contest... like a comparison between Karachi and Lahore red light districts.
> 
> There are pitfalls but then again... we are a forum... and my purpose here is not even debate... but to find solutions to issues and change the mindset. You would notice I rarely visit. It is because I usually seek to incorporate the knowledge acquired in my debates somewhere. Currently I am accumulating information on an ethnic paper that discusses our issues. Thus more reason to debate.
> 
> I am a journalist. I have learned that for a reporter ignoring a topic for whatever reason is not a great idea, neither often is filtering things. That's a different thing that today there is no place for a person who loves Pakistan so my articles almost never get published. Still hope drives us Nationalists on.
> 
> Don't fight guys. If you look at where all of this started it was a very simple statement based on the statements of a documentary director friend who knew a few things about Heera mandi which Luffy turned into a sleazy movie. This heera mandi is discussed in almost every third thread on the forum he visits (the third one where you don't have an account yet @RazPaK) and it usually includes insults to Punjabis and Pashtuns of Peshawar but his vociferous opposition here disappears for cool acquiescence there... he is like a kid. Naughty when the parents are away... very good boy when parents around.
> 
> But this is his specialization field. Exaggerating, lying... he has perfected those mendacious arts and no one can beat him in this regard. So chillax. There's nothing worse than being led to a fight by a bigot. I really have to admire the decision to promote armstrong to a position of importance... but maybe he should more rightfully be a moderator-or perhaps a new thing called-tension reliever?  That sounds ridiculous... will have to come up with a name and suggest it sometime to @WebMaster.
> 
> Sleep well. And stop fighting. @RazPaK and @Armstrong... you two really. I don't know what you saw... but you don't know this guy from the other site. For a long time even I stayed quiet on him due to son of mountains. You don't know any of them. Spend one day on that forum and you will sleep depressed for 10 days. Not a day passes without an abuse to Pakistan. He can't paint himself as a victim just because he was better than the rest. He sympathizes and supports Afghanistans position all the time. Still hasn't said a word about the 2 Afridis killed from Landi Kotal...



Son of Mountains is like my brother. I can't believe he would say anything against Pakistan.


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## Secur

haviZsultan said:


> How about we sell Sindh, Punjab and Kashmir to India since we are selling Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan to the Afghans (nation)? Whats the point of having a Pakistan where other races don't want 30 million of our citizens? How about we adopt the same attitude.



Even though I do not appreciate this " eye for an eye " attack on Afghan nationals , this makes one thing very clear ... The loyalty of Pakistani Pashtuns lies with the state of Pakistan , the people declaring Afghanistan as some promised land for " Pashtuns " can take a hike now !



haviZsultan said:


> Karachi? Is that you, you dumb MQM supporter? Looks like you guys are interested in increasing the 30% directors of radio Pakistan rate to 90%... when is Jinnahpur demand coming? Syed Jamaluddin who knew Altaf has already made it... even had secret meetings with Altaf as my contact informs me.



Karachi belongs to all Pakistanis of belonging to each and every ethnicity , not just my race ... Lets make it very clear , we do not tolerate any freakin bull **** of Jinnahpur from traitor Altaf ... He can apply for the nationality of India if he's so against partition , nobody will give a damn !



Hyperion said:


> His grey matter hit a 404. Btw, why do you bother with these two impaired individuals? Aren't 30 million+ of us proof enough, that all is well!



Oh the fuckin " forbidden ! " ...  Yeah , we have more of the people they claim to be their citizens of the " promised land "

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## Secur

KS said:


> True...ISI has been doing that from day one to pre-empt Pasthuns getting united and demanding Pashtunistan.



Google the " Afghan invasion of Bajaur " to get a new fresh perspective ! ...


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## Safriz

RazPaK said:


> Yaar, baat karnay ki leyeh lehaz hona chayhe.
> 
> Kya app lok dunya ko dikaray ho?
> 
> 
> Humaray kahndaan main humari asi tarbeeat toh ney hui.
> 
> 
> Shayd main itna modern ney hun.
> 
> Magar aap sharif ban kar roh aur apnay points exchange karo.
> 
> 
> Yeh pesha dunya ka sab se purana hain.
> 
> Har mulak main hain.


yes..
But its mainly a female profession so the matter if discussed will automatically direct the discussion towards women...
That does not mean we are demeaning women...
Same as discussing curb crawlers is not inclusive towards all men and hence not demeaning towards all men.
Some facts are snide and disgusting by default..Prostitution is one of them.

You do need to get your facts right.

and lets leave this thread for the discussion at hand..
If somebody wants to discuss prostitution..Open another thread...


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## haviZsultan

RazPaK said:


> Son of Mountains is like my brother. I can't believe he would say anything against Pakistan.



No man... he told me Luffy was a nice guy and everything... thats why I didn't attack Luffy as aggressively. I was very pissed about what he was doing to another member named afghanis_hehe. That is not the site. Son of mountains is a real Ghayyur Pashtun... no doubt about that. Toramana's cousin Luffy isn't. 

There is pashtunsforum (Pakistani Pashtun-lar Pashtun-true Pashtun)
And pashtunforums. (Afghan-farsiwan)

One is an Afghan (nation) dominated one. The other is a campaign by Pakistani Pashtuns to fight back. You don't know anything yet yaar. E-world has become a tool for anti-Pakistani activity. PDF one of our final bastions. 

Anyway don't let Luffy succeed in creating a war. You guys fight... the gratification he feels hits the roof and so does his thick head as he tries to escape his dusty little kolba with its low roof... and celebrate with admin khan (the webmaster of that forum) in his Kabul mansion with thousands of armed guards and beer and what not.

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## KS

Sedqal said:


> India did get paranoid when Punjab asked for autonomy, shenanigans of RSS and other right-wing nutcases is also tolerated because they provide a 1 India narrative. Same reason why Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism is claimed to be Hindu when the same people find it insulting.



You havent the slightest idea of the Punjab issue. It was primarily a political containment of Akalis by the Congress gone horribly wrong. As far as RSS is concerned they have a Muslim front has well called Rashtriya Muslim manch. Andd the one India narrative they provide is that India is one country with incredible diversity which is the reality..I dont understand what wrong you saw in that.

Anyway as I said your Pak comrades are already getting insecure that an Indian is replying..so let me not feed that insecurity and move away from this thread.


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## RazPaK

Safriz said:


> yes..
> But its mainly a female profession so the matter if discussed will automatically direct the discussion towards women...
> That does not mean we are demeaning women...
> Same as discussing curb crawlers is not inclusive towards all men and hence not demeaning towards all men.
> Some facts are snide and disgusting by default..Prostitution is one of them.
> 
> You do need to get your facts right.
> 
> and lets leave this thread for the discussion at hand..
> If somebody wants to discuss prostitution..Open another thread...



It depends. I don't discuss these kinds of things in an open fashion, especially with so many eyes.

It is an important issue, magar ihteyat karnii chaiye, as it is a sensitive issue.

There is a time and place. Not here.


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## Safriz

RazPaK said:


> It depends. I don't discuss these kinds of things in an open fashion, especially with so many eyes.
> 
> It is an important issue, magar ihteyat karnii chaiye, as it is a sensitive issue.
> 
> There is a time and place. Not here.


I thought we are adults on this forum...But never mind..

Lets move on..


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## RazPaK

Safriz said:


> I thought we are adults on this forum...But never mind..
> 
> Lets move on..



Aap humaray senior hain. Main to abhi bhi bewakoof.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

2 wrongs dont make a right, but this is inevitable......

I say we just boycott ALL Afghan-owned businesses in Pakistan; dont do business with them. Dont go to their daarzis, dont buy their toys dont buy their cassettes or DVDs dont buy their anything

beating laborers is not revenge ever -- they are poor people. We should have the moral high ground here. There are PROPER ways to show these treacherous types a good lesson.


they are stabbing their own feet every time they inflict harm on Pakistan or its people

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## RazPaK

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> 2 wrongs dont make a right, but this is inevitable......
> 
> I say we just boycott ALL Afghan-owned businesses in Pakistan; dont do business with them. Dont go to their daarzis, dont buy their toys dont buy their cassettes or DVDs dont buy their anything
> 
> beating laborers is not revenge ever -- they are poor people. We should have the moral high ground here. There are PROPER ways to show these treacherous types a good lesson.
> 
> 
> they are stabbing their own feet every time they inflict harm on Pakistan or its people



Don't you think you would only hurt Afghan Pashtuns in general for the actions of the NA Tajiks and their dogs?


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## haviZsultan

Secur said:


> Even though I do not appreciate this " eye for an eye " attack on Afghan nationals , this makes one thing very clear ... The loyalty of Pakistani Pashtuns lies with the state of Pakistan , the people declaring Afghanistan as some promised land for " Pashtuns " can take a hike now !
> 
> Karachi belongs to all Pakistani of belonging to each and every ethnicity , not just my race ... Lets make it very clear , we do not tolerate any freakin bull **** of Jinnahpur from traitor Altaf ... He can apply for the nationality of India if he's so against partition , nobody will give a damn !
> 
> Oh the fuckin " forbidden ! " ...  Yeah , we have more of the people they claim to be their citizens of the " promised land "



I agree. Those who knew Syed Jamaluddin... who is the person who is most vociferously promoting this theory may also know he has always been a confidant of Altaf. You can research him.

Its a really great thing having you and @A.Rafay aboard. BTW I want Karachi to be the bastion of the Pakistan Nationalist Party... the first nationalist party to ever be formed. With you I gain hope. Maybe one day MQM can be out... PNP in. Provided I get healthy again and can take steps in this regard (currently very sick). Its sad that in 60+ years we haven't produced a single nationalist party, one that is based solely on the concept of defending Pakistan's interests both internally and externally (without any cleavages, ethnic, sect or other). Pure nationalism for everyone regardless of religion or ethnic group. 

Was my dream once. 
Utmost pleasure to see that Karachi can be saved.

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## Dance

RazPaK said:


> Don't you think you would only hurt Afghan Pashtuns in general for the actions of the NA Tajiks and their dogs?



From what I've seen Afghan Pashtuns seem to hate Pakistanis the most because they are the ones who think we've "occupied their land".


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Paan Singh said:


> i have a question ..
> 
> 
> how much pak afghan border is guarded with soldiers and how much is opened?



bottom line -- the border is rugged and extremely porous. 

to fully guard every nook and cranny would require more resources than we have; it's nearly humanly impossible


we had an ambitious plan in 2008 -- partnership with USA's DHS (Homeland Security) to build an electrified fence on certain portions of durand line border

unfortunately Karzai the King of Kabul raised a hue and a cry --- and protested. And then our spineless guys in Islamabad cancelled the project just because Karzai regime was opposed to this measure (which I was strongly in favor of)


but that's our government for you.....to them, Pakistani lives are cheap and doing anything to SAFEGUARD this God-forsaken border would be "offensive" to our dear Afghan brothers

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## Hyperion

There is even a simpler way. Stop export of meat, poultry and wheat. I guarantee you, when a "_Nan_" in Kabul costs Rs.75, they will all come to their senses. I say, whenever we deal with Afghanistan, we should always use our location to suffocate them!




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> 2 wrongs dont make a right, but this is inevitable......
> 
> I say we just boycott ALL Afghan-owned businesses in Pakistan; dont do business with them. Dont go to their daarzis, dont buy their toys dont buy their cassettes or DVDs dont buy their anything
> 
> beating laborers is not revenge ever -- they are poor people. We should have the moral high ground here. There are PROPER ways to show these treacherous types a good lesson.
> 
> 
> they are stabbing their own feet every time they inflict harm on Pakistan or its people

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## RazPaK

But I'm sure the average rural Pashtun in both nations is only concerned about his family's security and his livelihood.


NA is the true enemy and they are indoctrinating all within the country.

This is my opinion.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

RazPaK said:


> Don't you think you would only hurt Afghan Pashtuns in general for the actions of the NA Tajiks and their dogs?



there comes a point in time, bhai jaan, when we need to worry about our own


and just -- OUR OWN


let them worry about their own country; whether they like us or dont like us -- Afghanistan is their country. Not Pakistan. Was it written in Quran or Constitution that we have to bare all the expenses for Afghanistan? 


why arent the holier than thou indians or americans taking in millions of refugees? Why Iran and Pakistan must suffer and bear the huge burden and liability. We've done so much for them and this is how they are repaying us?

lobbing artillery at Bajaur villagers, attacking our laborers and throwing their passports in a disrespectful manner, constant blame games in their media and statements by some of their puppet officials (who wont be lasting long anyways once their masters leave)

where's the honour in this?

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## haviZsultan

RazPaK said:


> Don't you think you would only hurt Afghan Pashtuns in general for the actions of the NA Tajiks and their dogs?



You are not understanding this yar... we don't have to be loyal to Afghan Pashtuns to be Pashtuns. Its a myth perpetuated by people like Luffy which I am trying to fight. Its the entire basis of my argument which I have been making for a weak and you are ignoring it. 

I saw how they treat us and I saw no single Tajik hazara or uzbek there. You can shoot me if you find ONE. It was bar Pashtuns (meaning Pashtun from Afghanistan-simplifying our terminology for you) calling us things like heera mandi culture and things like that. I tried to explain that to Luffy and make the point that there were Afghans there too upon which he went berzerk. In any case we can't keep thinking about them. 

We don't have to define our Pashtuniyat vis a vis Afghanistan... if we look at history its basically we who ruled. Ahmed Shah Durrani was born on our soil in Multan. Pir Roshan was from Kaniguram, Rehman Baba from Peshawar even Khushal Khan Khattak was from us. Each Pashtun personality was born not in what is modern day afghanistan but in Pakistan. 

People like luffy know history more than others even Pashtuns- his own research confirms that only 5% Pashtuns know the people I just mentioned so they can perpetuate this myth that we are for some reason all supposed to be loyal to Afghanistan... its senseless and stupid. Pakistan comes first for all of us as we struggled to make it. Bar pashtuns step against it... they can go to hell. 

Its funny that Bar Pashtuns put pressure on us to be loyal to Afghanistan after they abandoned us... its slightly understandable that Pashtun nationalists define their nationalism in an Afghanistan-centric fashion, we share a common history before 1893... but it really hurts when other fellow brothers put pressure on us to be loyal to them. For example the comment by the freak who said everything west of the indus should go to Afghanistan??? Whats that mean? 

Its typical chauvinism. Some people just want a Pakistan that has their ethnic group... and this is a real, real issue because it means these people haven't understood the essence of Pakistan AT ALL! Pakistan is not a nation based on a single ethnicity... it is an amalgamation, a united nation binded by (should be) Nationalism which is unfortunately mixed a lot with religious chest-thumping (though the 2 are very separate things-I have an article on this I will share later but its a different topic)... each of our cultures is beautiful and to be cherished... and in the end ethnic identity is just supposed to disappear and become inconsequential...

Why am I so attached if I am preaching bar Pashtuns should not even matter? I am defensive about Pashtuns... yes but I am not by birth one... za pashtun yam lh dee amlah za ghwarem (meaning i am Pashtun because I want to be). Razpak since childhood I have seen these beautiful people being abused... I saw it firsthand from the Muhajir community which has stooped to new heights of racism ever since it arrived but there is this same racism among many Punjabis too... my purpose is not to increase tension....

My purpose is to give a message of unity... of our strength by being together. I am not just arguing for Pashtuns. I am by joining the most misunderstood community and defending it arguing against bigotry. All our cultures... all our history is Pakistan's history. If we love each race and disengage ourselves from our own we can prosper. Saudi's don't even remember their tribes even though throughout their history there has been internecine tribal warfare. 

Its the time for us to do the same with ethnicity. Lets make it inconsequential. We don't have to support the bar Pashtuns, Muhajirs shouldn't love India, Punjabis should forget there are 30 million Punjabis more right across the border and Balochs too... we are a nation. Lets act like one. 

Afghanistan attacks us. Pashtuns will attack Afghanistan.

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## RazPaK

You guys from KPK know what to do and the situation.

But all I can say is that kisay masoom say na insaafi ney karni chaiye. Even if they are Afghans.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

RazPaK said:


> But I'm sure the average rural Pashtun in both nations is only concerned about his family's security and his livelihood.



you're right

but not just Pashtuns. Everyone wants economic security and physical security....shouldnt be a lot to ask for

if our laborers are following where the money and jobs are, they shouldnt have to worry about some dope-smoking goon border guard from the neighbour country beating them to a pulp

what kind of sick shmuck beats on low-income, helpless people anyways? (our feudals/politicians do it -- doesnt mean we should)




> NA is the true enemy and they are indoctrinating all within the country.
> 
> This is my opinion.



they've always been our enemies, but as a bitter pill to swallow we have to "accept" them......as long as their squabbles remain within Afghanistan borders and don't affect us, i'm at a point where I could care less about them. Hopefully one day Afghans would unite and stop their internal ethnic wars so that all Afghans can move back there where they belong. That's most ideal, even Afghans would agree to that.

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## Hyperion

@Abu Zolfiqar, mate I'm fond of bankrupting my competition, instead of shooting them. I'm sure that we can some how influence the supply of food inside of Afghanistan and use other economic measure to starve them. A hungry man can not fight. Doesn't matter, how many of those lower life forms suffer and die, as long as we can make a point!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

RazPaK said:


> You guys from KPK know what to do and the situation.
> 
> But all I can say is that kisay masoom say na insaafi ney karni chaiye. Even if they are Afghans.



what these relatives did was wrong.....according to the link, some were arrested (good)

how many of those Afghan border guards were arrested or even "disciplined" ????



Hyperion said:


> @Abu Zolfiqar, mate I'm fond of bankrupting my competition, instead of shooting them. I'm sure that we can some how influence the supply of food inside of Afghanistan and use other economic measure to starve them. A hungry man can not fight. Doesn't matter, how many of those lower life forms suffer and die, as long as we can make a point!



i dont want them to starve bro....i just dont want my country-men to be humiliated and treated like that when all they were doing was their damn jobs.

and i believe there are peaceful, professional ways to "RESPOND" to this aggression from across the border

and anyways -- Afghanistan is no competition for us. They gain more from us than we gain from them; it's been that way since forever.

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## Hyperion

Razi yara, peace can not be made with animals, first they need to taste the stick, only then will logic prevail.



RazPaK said:


> You guys from KPK know what to do and the situation.
> 
> But all I can say is that kisay masoom say na insaafi ney karni chaiye. Even if they are Afghans.

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## RazPaK

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what these relatives did was wrong.....according to the link, some were arrested (good)
> 
> how many of those Afghan border guards were arrested or even "disciplined" ????
> 
> 
> 
> i dont want them to starve bro....i just dont want my country-men to be humiliated and treated like that when all they were doing was their damn jobs.
> 
> and i believe there are peaceful, professional ways to "RESPOND" to this aggression from across the border




Bro these Tajiks should be flogged and have their heads on pikes. I mean our people go there to work and they attack them.

In response the family of the victims extracted revenge and beat down exactly the same number of Afghans that were attacked from their family.

I see it as an eye for an eye.

Good! That was justice.

But bro, I met some really good Afghans in Punjab. 

I have mixed feelings about this situation in general. You guys know best how they roll in your area.

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## Hyperion

Please never forget the Uzbeks as well. The northern gutter is full of them.



RazPaK said:


> Bro these Tajiks should be flogged and have their heads on pikes. I mean our people go there to work and they attack them.
> 
> In response the family of the victims extracted revenge and beat down exactly the same number of Afghans that were attacked from their family.
> 
> I see it as an eye for an eye.
> 
> Good! That was justice.
> 
> But bro, I met some really good Afghans in Punjab.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about this situation in general. You guys know best how they roll in your area.

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## Secur

haviZsultan said:


> I agree. Those who knew Syed Jamaluddin... who is the person who is most vociferously promoting this theory may also know he has always been a confidant of Altaf. You can research him.
> 
> Its a really great thing having you and @A.Rafay aboard. BTW I want Karachi to be the bastion of the Pakistan Nationalist Party... the first nationalist party to ever be formed. With you I gain hope. Maybe one day MQM can be out... PNP in. Provided I get healthy again and can take steps in this regard (currently very sick). Its sad that in 60+ years we haven't produced a single nationalist party, one that is based solely on the concept of defending Pakistan's interests both internally and externally (without any cleavages, ethnic, sect or other). Pure nationalism for everyone regardless of religion or ethnic group.
> 
> Was my dream once.
> Utmost pleasure to see that Karachi can be saved.



Yes I know him , everyone can dream without any restrictions  ... Let me make it clear , now be it dreaming during sleep , day dreaming or taking opium based hallucinogens to escape the reality in case of Jamaluddin  ... The real question one asks is " What does it change at the end of the day if you are running a thousand different blogs and sites and writing petition to " divide Pakistan " ? "

Thank you , brother ... Let me tell you , the migrants are very patriotic people however its sad to see some being mislead to believe that somehow MQM is their savior and the traitor Altaf their messiah ! The time calls for a nationalist party to be formed where the voice of every Pakistani can be made heard , regardless of any race , , religion ethnicity , language or color ... I tell you , the day they openly declare their true intentions will be the day of their extinction ... Overwhelming majority of patriotic Muhajirs will make sure of that , you can have my assurance for that ! What is really said for the last 60+ years almost every single political party of Pakistan has used the " divide and rule " strategy , perfected the usage of the " ethnicity " card and openly declared the " race based " politics policy ... Dont worry though , the days are drawing nearer for revolution ... 

It will be , in due time , my friend , wait and watch ... Do not let the " partition speech " by the traitor worry you , he was pleasing his masters in our eastern neighborhood , because you know what will happen to him the day he comes out of " Jinnah Terminal " - the name he so despises ! ... Remember my " One shot - Professional Job " scenario for him

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## RazPaK

Hyperion said:


> Please never forget the Uzbeks as well. The northern gutter is full of them.



Well we have a couple of them in body bags.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

RazPaK said:


> Bro these Tajiks should be flogged and have their heads on pikes. I mean our people go there to work and they attack them.
> 
> In response the family of the victims extracted revenge and beat down exactly the same number of Afghans that were attacked from their family.
> 
> I see it as an eye for an eye.
> 
> Good! That was justice.
> 
> But bro, I met some really good Afghans in Punjab.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about this situation in general. You guys know best how they roll in your area.



Whoever attacks our people, they are the problem.

Cant generalize a whole ethnic group, bhai. We can see what ethnic tensions does to a country. Fuels mistrust and destroys social fabric of society.

I dont even know who those border guards were....they could have been tibet Buddhists for all i care. What they did was wrong, and I want them to be punished. 

And if i were in charge of that country, I wouldnt open that border or allow even an insect to cross until there was a national apology not just to these laborers but to the people of Bajaur, Kurram and Khyber who have endured this BULLSHIT for several years now.

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## Hyperion

More the merrier. I'd like one head trophy in my lounge, unfortunately (I think) the law does not permit that! 




RazPaK said:


> Well we have a couple of them in body bags.


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## Secur

Hyperion said:


> Please never forget the Uzbeks as well. The northern gutter is full of them.



Now where are the Malangs going to run after 2014 ? In the Northern Safe houses probably ...

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Razi yara, peace can not be made with animals, first they need to taste the stick, only then will logic prevail.



I dunno who I'm talking to !  

Aren't you the same guy who talked about the Durrand Line not being a border for us & our People being there across the border & how Afghan Pashtuns & Pakistani Pashtuns are One !  

*Khan Sahib* yeh kiyaa selective amnesia haiii ?

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## RazPaK

I can't understand Sher Malang. 

He is a very nice and decent human being. 

He likes Pakistanis and has traveled to Pakistan.

He shows me respect.

But as soon political dialogue starts he becomes crazy and dogmatic.

He defends the NA dogs like his life depends on it.


In all honesty Sher Malang is one of the nicest people on the forum, but I don't understand why he has such animosity for Pakistan.


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## Hyperion

When I said those words, you forget I also said something else. I said they are our brothers, however, if they ever think ill of Pakistan, then I'll do exactly as my elders did, I'll rip their intestines out.




Armstrong said:


> I dunno who I'm talking to !
> 
> Aren't you the same guy who talked about the Durrand Line not being a border for us & our People being there across the border & how Afghan Pashtuns & Pakistani Pashtuns are One !
> 
> *Khan Sahib* yeh kiyaa selective amnesia haiii ?



Because you are not a psychologist, and you can not judge such people. I judged him day one for what he was. Unfortunately there is no solution of such people, other than the one I am proposing post 2014. One clean sweep. 




RazPaK said:


> I can't understand Sher Malang.
> 
> He is a very nice and decent human being.
> 
> He likes Pakistanis and has traveled to Pakistan.
> 
> He shows me respect.
> 
> But as soon political dialogue starts he becomes crazy and dogmatic.
> 
> He defends the NA dogs like his life depends on it.
> 
> 
> In all honesty Sher Malang is one of the nicest people on the forum, but I don't understand why he has such animosity for Pakistan.

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> When I said those words, you forget I also said something else. I said they are our brothers, however, if they ever think ill of Pakistan, then I'll do exactly as my elders did, I'll rip their intestines out.



When did your elders did that ?  

You forget I'm the dominant group in the Army ! 
@Abu Zolfiqar : Rora, hows the next Ninja hunting coming along ?

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## Hyperion

Yara, who has been protecting Eastern frontiers since inception of Pakistan? You or the army?



Armstrong said:


> When did your elders did that ?
> 
> You forget I'm the dominant group in the Army !

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## RazPaK

Okay. We need more pashtuns on the thread. Everyone else should shut up and observe. 

We in Punjab and Azad Kashmir have no idea of the realities in KPK.


As for Sher Malang, I think he is a nice guy. If he did not sit in the laps of the Indians on this forum, I would even invite him to my home.

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Yara, who has been protecting Eastern frontiers since inception of Pakistan? You or the army?



Oh bhai ghusaa kiyaa karneiii kiii zarooorat haiii !  

Besides I know of only one intrusion & that was in Bajaur in the '50s !

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## Hyperion

Razi, take my word for it. Malang & Co are way more dangerous than the Indians. Indians we can deal with, with Malang's of this world you never know when they will stab you.



RazPaK said:


> Okay. We need more pashtuns on the thread. Everyone else should shut up and observe.
> 
> We in Punjab and Azad Kashmir have no idea of the realities in KPK.
> 
> 
> As for Sher Malang, I think he is a nice guy. If he did not sit in the laps of the Indians on this forum, I would even invite him to my home.

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## RazPaK

@ Abu Zolfiqar

Can you give the link to that thread where you battled the fat Afghan chick in a debate.

Dude, that was so hilarious.

Please, post it for everyone to see.

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## Secur

RazPaK said:


> We in Punjab and Azad Kashmir have no idea of the realities in KPK.



Well I have developed a crude understanding of the situation in KPK + Tribal Area and different Pushtoon tribes thanks to a few crash course lesson from @haviZsultan  ... But its true , only people belonging to those areas or having relatives there can tell us the actual situation on the ground ... I think we have a lot of them ...



Hyperion said:


> Razi, take my word for it. Malang & Co are way more dangerous than the Indians. Indians we can deal with, with Malang's of this world you never know when they will stab you.



Well , Hashish is restricted for use by law for a reason , mate ...  The unknown enemy is more dangerous than the known , I agree with my Turkish-zai brother ...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Andromache said:


> tajik hazararas uzbk whoever but indeed Pukhtuns have not due representation.



Hardly any at all. The main reason why as a force, it's seen as anti Pashtun. Which is why even some anti taleban Pakhtuns were pushed towards supporting or accepting taleban 


The ground reality

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## Armstrong

RazPaK said:


> @ Abu Zolfiqar
> 
> Can you give the link to that thread where you battled the *fat Afghan chick* in a debate.
> 
> Dude, that was so hilarious.
> 
> Please, post it for everyone to see.



I like chubby women !  

Yeah come on *AZ* do post the link man !

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## Hyperion

Because the Pashtuns of Afghanistan will never sell their souls to the devil. On the other hand, the Farsiwans and the Uzbeks will sell their mom for a penny!

I say, annex southern Afghanistan, and wreck havoc on North till all of them return back to their own countries. Afghanistan belongs to Pashtuns of Afghanistan. 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Hardly any at all. The main reason why as a force, it's seen as anti Pashtun. Which is why even some anti taleban Pakhtuns were pushed towards supporting or accepting taleban
> 
> 
> The ground reality


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RazPaK said:


> @ Abu Zolfiqar
> 
> Can you give the link to that thread where you battled the fat Afghan chick in a debate.
> 
> Dude, that was so hilarious.
> 
> Please, post it for everyone to see.



I had Webby delete that thread simply because it only brought negative energy.

Plus, some crazy vigilante idiot on this forum (i dont know who) noted down the name of one of the afghan people (a girl) and sent her a nasty facebook message threatening her with beatings and rapes and things like that.

She contacted me in fear and requested that her name at least be edited out; and she asked very politely and also apologized on behalf of her cousin who was saying those anti-Pakistan things. So i decided just shut down the whole thread and delete.

at the time it was funny but looking back, it wasn't productive at all

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## Secur

Armstrong said:


> I like chubby women !



Once again ! 

Need I remind you again of what Nero was doing while Rome burnt ?

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## regular

Paan Singh said:


> i have a question ..
> 
> 
> how much pak afghan border is guarded with soldiers and how much is opened?


its same like Pak -Indian border...........


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Armstrong said:


> I like chubby women !
> 
> Yeah come on *AZ* do post the link man !



I "might" still have some of the transcripts on my work USB flash drive.....

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Because the Pashtuns of Afghanistan will never sell their souls to the devil. On the other hand, the Farsiwans and the Uzbeks will sell their mom for a penny!
> 
> I say, annex southern Afghanistan, and wreck havoc on North till all of them return back to their own countries. Afghanistan belongs to Pashtuns of Afghanistan.



Hainnn !  

Afghanistan belongs as much to the Tajiks, the Uzbeks & the Hazaras as it does to the Pashtuns !

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## Hyperion

Secur, yara, Armstrong has some really strange fetishes! 



Secur said:


> Once again !
> 
> Need I remind you again of what Nero was doing while burnt ?



Blasphemy! 



Armstrong said:


> Hainnn !
> 
> Afghanistan belongs as much to the Tajiks, the Uzbeks & the Hazaras as it does to the Pashtuns !

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## RazPaK

Some Tajik member joined a few months ago, and he was like If Pakistan supports us ******* the Pashtuns in Afghanistan we will always support them.


I was like whaaat?


I was like Pashtuns is our Pakistani people, sorry but no. He was like, we Tajiks will become best friends with your nation If you help us defeat the Pashtuns, and make Khorasan.

I was like yeah buddy. Not happening. **** off.

Some members probably remember that guy.


But anyway, it's weird to see some Pashtuns here kissing NA boots.

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Secur, yara, Armstrong has some really strange fetishes!



Its not a fetish !  

People like blondies...I like fatties ! 



Hyperion said:


> Blasphemy!



No its actually true !  

They're Afghans too !  

In fact I'm gonna marry a Tajik lady from Afghanistan with you as my best man !  

Beat that !

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## SHAMK9

RazPaK said:


> *Some Tajik member joined a few months ago*,.


err..he was a troll, he first said that they want alliance with Pakistan but later added that they will invade Pakistan

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## RazPaK

SHAMK9 said:


> err..he was a troll, he first said that they want alliance with Pakistan but later added that they will invade Pakistan



LoL, **** that.


Like I will sell my brother.


He was like, We will be hostile to India if you support us.

I was like yo, India is no sweat, we don't sell out our own people.


LOL

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## Armstrong

RazPaK said:


> Some Tajik member joined a few months ago, and he was like If Pakistan supports us ******* the Pashtuns in Afghanistan we will always support them.
> 
> 
> I was like whaaat?
> 
> 
> I was like Pashtuns is our Pakistani people, sorry but no. He was like, we Tajiks will become best friends with your nation If you help us defeat the Pashtuns, and make Khorasan.
> 
> I was like yeah buddy. Not happening. **** off.
> 
> Some members probably remember that guy.
> 
> 
> But anyway, it's weird to see some Pashtuns here kissing NA boots.



Are you talking about the guy with '*Khoraisan*' or something as his nick who started all lovey dovey with Pakistanis are my brothers & we should whoop Pashtun arse & then turned into a suicide troll when he say Pakistanis wouldn't buy into it !

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## Hyperion

Tajiks are irrelevant without the monetary support of our neighbors, eastern and western. And then the Uzbeks are pure trouble makers. Whatever, we will eventually handle them all. There can be no peace.



RazPaK said:


> Some Tajik member joined a few months ago, and he was like If Pakistan supports us ******* the Pashtuns in Afghanistan we will always support them.
> 
> 
> I was like whaaat?
> 
> 
> I was like Pashtuns is our Pakistani people, sorry but no. He was like, we Tajiks will become best friends with your nation If you help us defeat the Pashtuns, and make Khorasan.
> 
> I was like yeah buddy. Not happening. **** off.
> 
> Some members probably remember that guy.
> 
> 
> But anyway, it's weird to see some Pashtuns here kissing NA boots.

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## Secur

Hyperion said:


> Secur, yara, Armstrong has some really strange fetishes!



As Psychology is one of my areas of interest and learning , I can treat him for free with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy  Unless of course , he a necrophiliac 



Hyperion said:


> Tajiks are irrelevant without the monetary support of our neighbors, eastern and western. And then the Uzbeks are pure trouble makers. Whatever, we will eventually handle them all. There can be no peace.



Yes , what is Tajikistan without the support of our eastern neighbor ? It cant create trouble for us unless aided by them , just like they leased out a whole base to them for supporting Northern Alliance - another enemy of ours , not pondering over the consequences what would happen to them if an hostile act is done from their territory by anyone against our forces ... Why , Its pure hate !

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## Hyperion

@Armstrong @RazPaK @SHAMK9 @Secur @haviZsultan @A.Rafay and all others lurking, good night!

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## RazPaK

Hyperion said:


> @Armstrong @RazPaK @SHAMK9 @Secur @haviZsultan @A.Rafay and all others lurking, good night!



Yeah I will see you in ten minutes when you realize you can't sleep and that your beloved is not there.

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## Armstrong

Secur said:


> As Psychology is one of my areas of interest and learning , I can treat him for free with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy  Unless of course , he a *necrophiliac*



Ahh hell no ! 

I confess that I may have cannibalistic tendencies especially for sweet Pashtun meat !  

But I ain't into that sh*t !

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## RazPaK

Armstrong said:


> Ahh hell no !
> 
> I confess that I may have cannibalistic tendencies especially *for sweet Pashtun meat* !
> 
> But I ain't into that sh*t !





Alright boys ranging from 8-12. Watch out for Armstrong. 

Laghta usko pathan ka jinn par gaya.

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## Secur

Armstrong said:


> Ahh hell no !
> 
> *I confess that I may have cannibalistic tendencies especially for sweet Pashtun meat !  *
> 
> But I ain't into that sh*t !



I knew it !  I even understand the context in which you mentioned " meat " ... Gladly for you , Zarvan is not here otherwise he would have sentenced you to 100 lashes for these fantasies - with full force of course ! 



RazPaK said:


> Alright boys ranging from 8-12. Watch out for Armstrong.



Armstong " The Cannibal " Think Tank incoming !

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## Armstrong

Secur said:


> I knew it !  I even understand the context in which you mentioned " meat " ... *Gladly for you , Zarvan is not here otherwise he would have sentenced you to 100 lashes for these fantasies - with full force of course* !
> 
> 
> 
> Armstong " The Cannibal " Think Tank incoming !



One may never know that might be Zarvan's fetish !

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## Abu Zolfiqar

RazPaK said:


> LoL, **** that.
> 
> 
> Like I will sell my brother.
> 
> 
> He was like, We will be hostile to India if you support us.
> 
> I was like yo, India is no sweat, we don't sell out our own people.
> 
> 
> LOL



Some enthusiastic people get carried away and think PDF is website portal for Pakistan Foreign Ministry 





And then there is opposite extreme; there was a user called "fundamentalist" ..... As taleban minded as they come. Man I'm worried he is sitting next to hakimullah mehsud or something. Crazy mofo

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## Secur

Armstrong said:


> One may never know that might be Zarvan's fetish !



Then , I am putting you in solitary confinement for a period lasting not less than 3 months or until the time we diagnose what sort of fetish you have for the safety of the said man who may be in danger from you ...

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## RazPaK

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Some enthusiastic people get carried away and think PDF is website portal for Pakistan Foreign Ministry



Dude, honestly. Even the older people from enemy countries don't behave like dip shits.


I entertain the the younger people, because they think their diplomacy on the forum will affect actual policies of countries.

I mean as much as it is real to them is as much as it is a game to me.

I agree, disagree, laugh and enjoy.

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## Secur

SHAMK9 said:


> err..he was a troll, he first said that they want alliance with Pakistan but later added that they will invade Pakistan



Yes , when hell freezes over

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## haviZsultan

Hyperion said:


> Because the Pashtuns of Afghanistan will never sell their souls to the devil. On the other hand, the Farsiwans and the Uzbeks will sell their mom for a penny!
> 
> I say, annex southern Afghanistan, and wreck havoc on North till all of them return back to their own countries. Afghanistan belongs to Pashtuns of Afghanistan.



If we go by the concept of lar aw bar yaw Pashtun... then their land belongs to us and ours with them... Time to unite all Pashtuns in one Pakistan. 

This is the map they propose by the way... if you go to the forum you will see it all the time. Note the western parts of Pakistan in it:







By the way Afghanistan will never reach that level of sophistication... why not invite us to invade?


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Armstrong said:


> Are you talking about the guy with '*Khoraisan*' or something as his nick who started all lovey dovey with Pakistanis are my brothers & we should whoop Pashtun arse & then turned into a suicide troll when he say Pakistanis wouldn't buy into it !



Only me and sher malang countered him, the rest of the members were quite soft on him because he was talking about friendship with pakistan.


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## Gandalf

Afghans torture two Pakistanis in tit-for-tat action | Newspaper | DAWN.COM
Afghan Pashtuns have taken their revenge.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Hyperion said:


> @Abu Zolfiqar, mate I'm fond of bankrupting my competition, instead of shooting them. I'm sure that we can some how influence the supply of food inside of Afghanistan and use other economic measure to starve them. A hungry man can not fight. Doesn't matter, how many of those lower life forms suffer and die, as long as we can make a point!



Even a starving and dying Afghan would not bow down his head to you. You think they are not dying and starving due to war , destruction and poverty for last 3 decades? These people have unbelievable patience and stamina that a burger-khor pathan like you would never possess. You dont need to talk about afghanistan, many pakistanis are of opinion that your waziristan should be nuked or it should be depopulated to finish the TTP once and for all.


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## Hyperion

Nothing works on me mate. I'm absolutely immune.  



Monkey D Luffy said:


> Even a starving and dying Afghan would not bow down his head to you. You think they are not dying and starving due to war , destruction and poverty for last 3 decades? These people have unbelievable patience and stamina that a burger-khor pathan like you would never possess. You dont need to talk about afghanistan, many pakistanis are of opinion that your waziristan should be nuked or it should be depopulated to finish the TTP once and for all.

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Nothing works on me mate. I'm absolutely immune.



'Burger-khor Pathan' !  

I'm so disappointed I had thought you more of a Stuffed Chicken Breast with Pineapple sauce & a baked potato, kind of a person !

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## RazPaK

Armstrong said:


> 'Burger-khor Pathan' !
> 
> I'm so disappointed I had thought you more of a Stuffed Chicken Breast with Pineapple sauce & a baked potato, kind of a person !



Pineapple sauce?

Yuck.

***** have weird taste buds.

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## Armstrong

RazPaK said:


> Pineapple sauce?
> 
> Yuck.
> 
> ***** have weird taste buds.



Yaraa Salt & Pepper kiii haii you should try it out some time ! With melted butter stuffed in the chicken the pineapple sauce complements & contrasts it nicely ! 



Monkey D Luffy said:


> Only me and sher malang countered him, the rest of the members were quite soft on him because he was talking about friendship with pakistan.



Had he been bad mouthing Pakistani Pashtuns most of us would have been riled at him but because his talk mostly revolved around how Pashtuns did this & they did that in 'Afghanistan' most of us can't be bothered with it ! 

For us its this very simple equation : 

Lar Pashtun = Family !

Bar Pashtun = Not my problem !

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

haviZsultan said:


> Luffy knows nothing about Pashtuns man. My friend is an Orakzai girl in Canada from a very accomplished family. She hates Afghans and start swearing every time some Afghan starts his lar aw bar rubbish.



Tell your orakzai girl to behave like a respectable lady and stop swearing.

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## jbond197

Monkey D Luffy said:


> .....................


 @Monkey D Luffy : I wanted to ask a totally unrelated question to you - Do you guys also hate Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan like most of the other Pakistanis? I am his great fan for his efforts in bringing peace in the region which is so messed up today. I am sad to see the land of Khudai Khidmatgars turned into Land of extremism and constant fighting. I want to know how Pakhtuns see him today..

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

jbond197 said:


> @Monkey D Luffy : I wanted to ask a totally unrelated question to you - Do you guys also hate Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan like most of the other Pakistanis? I am his great fan for his efforts in bringing peace in the region which is so messed up today. I am sad to see the land of Khudai Khidmatgars turned into Land of extremism and constant fighting. I want to know how Pakhtuns see him today..



Most of the pakhtuns, especially those of peshawer valley, have respect for bacha khan. Only institutionalized pakhtuns of young generation, full of patriotism for pakistan, consider it their obligation to demonize bacha khan. But still their tone is not as much harsh as other pakistanis like punjabis and mohajirs.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Armstrong said:


> Yaraa Salt & Pepper kiii haii you should try it out some time ! With melted butter stuffed in the chicken the pineapple sauce complements & contrasts it nicely !
> 
> 
> 
> Had he been bad mouthing Pakistani Pashtuns most of us would have been riled at him but because his talk mostly revolved around how Pashtuns did this & they did that in 'Afghanistan' most of us can't be bothered with it !
> 
> For us its this very simple equation :
> 
> Lar Pashtun = Family !
> 
> Bar Pashtun = Not my problem !



Read that thread again, he mostly called names to pakhtuns of FATA and KPK. He was telling pakistanis to get rid of lar pakhtuns while they would get rid of bar pakhtuns.


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## American Pakistani

Pakistani govt should demand arrest & handover of those ANA fools who tortured Pakistani innocent civilians.


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## SHAMK9

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Even a starving and dying Afghan would not bow down his head to you. You think they are not dying and starving due to war , destruction and poverty for last 3 decades? These people have unbelievable patience and stamina that a burger-khor pathan like you would never possess. You dont need to talk about afghanistan,* many pakistanis are of opinion that your waziristan should be nuked or it should be depopulated to finish the TTP once and for all*.


Thats why many oppose military attacks against ttp there, you clearly need to get out more.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Even a starving and dying Afghan would not bow down his head to you. You think they are not dying and starving due to war , destruction and poverty for last 3 decades? These people have unbelievable patience and stamina that a burger-khor pathan like you would never possess. You dont need to talk about afghanistan, many pakistanis are of opinion that your waziristan should be nuked or it should be depopulated to finish the TTP once and for all.



"your Waziristan"

why didn't you say "our Waziristan"

tell me honestly, are you AFGHAN or PAKISTANI?


and no idiot in their right mind would want a nuke flying over their own country......so give it some rest agha



Monkey D Luffy said:


> Most of the pakhtuns, especially those of peshawer valley, have respect for bacha khan. Only institutionalized pakhtuns of young generation, full of patriotism for pakistan, consider it their obligation to demonize bacha khan. But still their tone is not as much harsh as other pakistanis like punjabis and mohajirs.



you should be a politician, bhai....you would be good at it

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## Alienoz_TR

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> "your Waziristan"
> 
> why didn't you say "our Waziristan"
> 
> tell me honestly, are you AFGHAN or PAKISTANI?
> 
> 
> and no idiot in their right mind would want a nuke flying over their own country......so give it some rest agha



Dont fall into the trap. Yours, ours... These are US manipulation.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

RazPaK said:


> Okay. We need more pashtuns on the thread. Everyone else should shut up and observe.
> 
> We in Punjab and Azad Kashmir have no idea of the realities in KPK.
> 
> 
> As for Sher Malang, I think he is a nice guy. If he did not sit in the laps of the Indians on this forum, I would even invite him to my home.



haven't seen him or Ahmad post in a while, not sure where they went?

as for sitting in indian laps --- the indians themselves would be interested to know what the anti-Pakistan Afghans think.....

to them, anything non-Afghan or Pakistan-related is "hindu", "black" , "inferior" and "dal-khor"

i wonder how majority indian would feel about these designations 




Armstrong said:


> When did your elders did that ?
> 
> You forget I'm the dominant group in the Army !
> @Abu Zolfiqar : Rora, hows the next Ninja hunting coming along ?



bad.....and its freezing now so haven't been motivated to look

plus im getting my arse kicked by student loans repayment.

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## Hyperion

I feel as if this Luffy Monkey suffers from Bipolar Disorder! 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> haven't seen him or Ahmad post in a while, not sure where they went?
> 
> as for sitting in indian laps --- the indians themselves would be interested to know what the anti-Pakistan Afghans think.....
> 
> to them, anything non-Afghan or Pakistan-related is "hindu", "black" , "inferior" and "dal-khor"
> 
> i wonder how majority indian would feel about these designations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bad.....and its freezing now so haven't been motivated to look
> 
> plus im getting my arse kicked by student loans repayment.

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## haviZsultan

Secur said:


> Thank you , brother ... Let me tell you , *the migrants are very patriotic people* however its sad to see some being mislead to believe that somehow MQM is their savior and the traitor Altaf their messiah !



Secur I just wanted to clarify this point. I think you know my background... if not you can look through my previous posts to find out that I am a wannabe Pashtun gradually adopting the language and culture who has studied them and now knows about their history more than Pashtuns do themselves. I love Pashtuns, want to be like them, true but you don't know the whole story.

Our grandfather came to Pakistan a little late when most families had already moved. My father was a kid and so were most brothers and everyone else. Our mothers side stayed in Lucknow though-always supported Pakistan even till very late. Only now her brother has turned Indian. 

You would have noticed I say us when I condemn Muhajirs. That is because I am still loyal to the Firangi mahal house and the Ansari family from which I belong. We are a Muhajir family basically with perhaps unproven, limited Pashtun links, though no one really speaks Pashto amongst us and there is no proof of the past family legends-those also very few people know. I insist that instead of becoming a separate community we should have done everything in our power to integrate as Pakistanis and only that and if not that... into the various ethnic groups already present. By not doing so and becoming an ethnic group (God knows how this came to be) we exacerbated ethnic tensions. Later we formed a political party... is it coincidence that crime went up the roof in the late 1980's? An Indian member made a very valid point. How come the communities that migrated to India (Sikhs and Hindus) didn't become Muhajirs? Why did we adopt a term that is basically derogatory for ourselves... and we can't say other ethnic groups don't want to accept us, did we try? Its just an escape. 

And that was how it was supposed to be. Jinnah referred to the refugees as Muhajirs at times but not once did he suggest that it would be permanent setup. It was basically a term used till the Muhajirs settled down and Jinnah has made numerous speeches that he expected they would later merge with the respective communities to make a very homogenous setup (this has happened to an extent for those who moved to places other than Karachi and I have a number of friends like these who do not call themselves Muhajir despite having crossed the border)... Instead we made ourselves into an elite community that wanted all the power... separate from the rest.

You can look through my older posts and you will find posts about how close our links to Lucknow, Hyderabad and Delhi are... since we moved late. There are also a number of people I know who were killed... some in the aftermath of gujarat riots, (no we didn't move after that-for some reason borders were sealed so we couldn't even more affected relatives or cousins) when the riots spread to Hyderabad. There may even be a video around. Here. Some are very close members of distant family or friends. I spent time with one of the people on the video. BTW I don't know all the people-some are relatives of people I know and the channel ain't mine:



When you lose someone basically you understand the importance of your country. You also look at the nature of your people. We are diverging. We once only had the word Pakistan zindabad on our lips and where are we now, cursing fellow Pakistanis? I could have hated Hindu's all my life for this but I know many Hindus suffered the same thing and continue to suffer it in Pakistan. The issue is building up a National identity as Jinnah envisioned (for which he made claims like abandon provincialism and the 11 August address) and it cannot be built if we are too divided in the ethnic and religious sense. Being a Pakistani means accepting every religious and ethnic group as our own and in time our ethnic identities were to disappear. We are supposed to be a nation, not a squabbling group of people who hate each other!

Instead after we moved... we forgot everything. We became racist to other races, we abused them and we looked down upon them. My khandaan members have been involved in some of the worst abuse to Pashtuns, Sindhis, Balochs and Punjabis. 

Personally once we settled we should have helped the ethnic groups... thats what you do when you are in a better position right? Instead I just cannot understand why there is this sense of insecurity and why "hamari pehchaan" has to mean MQM despite its atrocities, its just that we want a Muhajir, a person from our community who we will vote for no matter what his record? Thats how an educated community behaves? Sounds like Jihalat. Furthermore we feel insecure? But why???? We have a gdp per capita according to H&H higher than anyone else (We earn +13,000 rupees more than the ethnic group that comes second according to this report), an HDI much better than anyone else. Take a simple example. Of the directors for radio Pakistan in Karachi 30% have been Muhajir, not a single baloch, 2-3 Pashtuns and Sindhis, rest punjabis. Compared this to the population. We are 8% of the total. We have a disproportionate role and we have built ourselves a tower with the help of Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs put ourselves at the top!

We take pride in the fact that we made Pakistan (though I hold this is a form of self-gratification and we should say that all ethnic groups made Pakistan and suffered equally for its formation) then why the hell can't we act like it? No one leaves his race, Secur. I saw things with my eyes. I am also a journalist so I get information others don't. I can qoute figures... numbers stats from reports and study's and I know. We are controlling Karachi and mistreating everyone else. Urdu is the national language and it is being imposed on everyone else... even the Punjabis. I saw my family abusing a Sindhi watchman in front of my eyes, at least people have respect not to abuse someone for his race in front of him. We didn't even have that honor? Then we ignore the crimes committed by Altaf. Does anyone ask about the situation in 92 when operation clean-up was launched? Violence was becoming a norm. What else could be done... and immediately the operation became an attack on Urdu-speakers... And guess what. I can post the report... every police officer remotely linked to that operation is linked... even the constables and sergeants under him. 

I have stories upon stories... not from Sindhis or someone else... but fellow Muhajirs who were forced to pay extortion to MQM gangs. And now we want operations everywhere in Waziristan when we cry so much "bias this, discrimination that" about one little operation cleanup. We basically act like hypocrites Secur. 

Now yes, about your statement. Even my Muhajir family/khandaan never ever stated any anti-pakistani feelings and love Pakistan in their own ways-even though some bhoot enters their body to defend Altaf's speech. There is a fool, an ideological cousin of Luffy but he is a wine-snobbing, morally-weak PPP supporter in Canada from the party which has an uneven ratio of producing some of the worst traitors to this country. But the issue is far different than that. Its what we teach our kids, its the conversations that take place in our living rooms and they consist of kicking Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs out. We say no one exept Muhajirs should enter Karachi... we insult people from other ethnic groups in front of them... my cousins and relatives have done it! And its really sad. This wasn't supposed to be how Pakistan was, we were to meld. Become one! 

I rebelled against not only our khandaan, but all of society... I just said, enough! The message I wish to give is that ethnicity is temporary, a fluid concept that does not and should not be used to pitch us against each other. I wish to say... Pakistan comes first, make a statement of ethnic unity. I wish to stand against the discrimination. 

I know my learning Pashtun language, knowing more about Pashtun geography, culture and history more than many people on Pakistani side know themselves will never be appreciated. But people don't understand what I am trying to say. Loving Pashtuns is a part of it, yes... I'd be crazy to be writing about Pashtuns, seeing the bias against them while they kept shouting Long live Pakistan not to love them dearly... but this is about more than that. Its about our unity. Its about Nationalism. Its about making the statement that all cultures in this country are extremely beautiful, that we do not have to hate our own people. 

You will notice that despite adopting Pashtun culture I usually try not to comment on an issue holding too much sentimental value or which can be used by people like Luffy for example Bacha Khan. Basically about the forum I am talking about there were no Tajiks, Uzbeks or Hazaras. It was basically Pashtuns from Afghanistan insulting Pakistan, Punjabis and Pakistani Pashtuns (according to them we were Punjabi slaves) constantly. It was no one else. But people are unwilling to believe fellow Pashtuns can do this... so the conversation here has gone off on Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks being the root of the issue, which in many ways is also true.

It proves people are a little defensive when it comes to ethnicity and I am trying to say... that is what Altaf Hussain or a leader who does politics on ethnic basis uses to his advantage just in the way Luffy or darkinsky do to create divisions. There is a cousin of ours who simply cannot hear a negative word about India (Lucknow is and should be a part of Pakistan being a heart of Muslim League-so should Hyderabad)... its a weakness. We can't be loyal to other nations just because they have some of our ancestors or people from our ethnic group. Everyone disagrees with him... but in anyway it proves that these ethnic identities can be used against Pakistan's unity.

What I described happens in my family... I am sure it happens in almost every urdu-speaking family and probably in those of other ethnic groups as a friend of mine beautifully put it when i was thinking of adopting Pashtun culture and ways-I basically learned that there are bigots everywhere finding a whole army of them on the other forum-they abused me so much I felt very unsure about myself-Luffy's best friend, the most racist person on the forum even told me I was a donkey trying to adopt lion's skin (Non-Pashtun trying to be Pashtun. 

Thing is these issues on the basis of ethnicity shouldn't be there people like me and you can stop it. We love our country... and by loving our country it means loving every other ethnic group in it. Its the essence of Pakistan, Secur. We cannot deny it. Its not a country built on a race or ethnic group but a beautiful amalgamation of 200+ languages. Frankly no one can learn the ways of 200+ cultures... but i will of the 4 main in my mission to promote brotherhood. A fractured country cannot function. We cannot allow ourselves to be fractured. 

We can start with our homes secur. I challenge anyone who criticizes another ethnic group. You can do it too... together... we can play a role in the removal of ethnic bigotry from our country. I have nothing against Muhajirs... I just feel being born one I have a right to condemn them and how they behaved. It won't be the same if I do it for another ethnic group though, even my adopted one-because its like after becoming one I am trying to tell people what to do. A good way to describe me is that I don't count Muhajir history (there is nothing such as Muhajir-i still hold btw) after 47 and the history of Afghanistan since 1983 (It was the year when southern regions separated and durand line came into being. Before that we were one nation which is basically the reason for the pain in Sher Malang and Luffy's bum.)

That is why I don't want @Hyperion and @Andromache to be quiet to Luffy, because only people from the ethnic group they belong to can fight bigots and prove them wrong, though in this case it is my sincere hope that I may be able to convert Luffy though I cannot help but despise what he proposes. Me he will always label a non-pashtun. He did the same with Imran Khan because he happened to live in Mianwali!

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> "your Waziristan"
> 
> why didn't you say "our Waziristan"
> 
> tell me honestly, are you AFGHAN or PAKISTANI?


hyperion belongs to waziristan, so "your waziristan"..... when i talked to you , did'nt i say "in your kurram agency"?.....many members here say to me " in your lakki marwat" , does they become indian or afghans?....by the way all 35 million pashtuns of pakistan are ethnic Afghans so yes i am afghan as well as pakistani.








> you should be a politician, bhai....you would be good at it


say "wrora" instead of "bhai" when you talk to a fellow pashtun.......are you an urduspeaker?


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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> hyperion belongs to waziristan, so "your waziristan"..... when i talked to you , did'nt i say "in your kurram agency"?.....many members here say to me " in your lakki marwat" , does they become indian or afghans?....*by the way all 35 million pashtuns of pakistan are ethnic Afghans so yes i am afghan as well as pakistani.*



You do realize that you're just playing with words here !  

Unless I'm mistaken Afghan is the Dari word for a Pashtun ! 
And if that is true what your essentially saying is : All Pashtuns of Pakistan are ethnic Pashtuns ! No sh*t !  



Monkey D Luffy said:


> say "wrora" instead of "bhai" when you talk to a fellow pashtun.......are you an urduspeaker?


 @Hyperion @haviZsultan @RazPaK : Allah kareiii *Luffy* kiii shaaadiii eikkk Urdu speakers sehh hooo ! Amen !

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> Allah kareiii *Luffy* kiii shaaadiii eikkk Urdu speakers sehh hooo ! Amen !



Dill say "Summa Ameen" nikkal raha hai!

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Armstrong said:


> You do realize that you're just playing with words here !
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken Afghan is the Dari word for a Pashtun !
> And if that is true what your essentially saying is : All Pashtuns of Pakistan are ethnic Pashtuns ! No sh*t !
> 
> 
> @Hyperion @haviZsultan @RazPaK : Allah kareiii *Luffy* kiii shaaadiii eikkk Urdu speakers sehh hooo ! Amen !



My friend you are mistaken, Afghan is not a dari word for pashtuns, it is just another name for pashtuns, mostly in literature. If pakhtuns are not afghan then Pakistan should be renamed as alif in word pakistan stands for Afghania.

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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> My friend you are mistaken, Afghan is not a dari word for pashtuns, it is just another name for pashtuns, mostly in literature. If pakhtuns are not afghanistan then Pakistan should be renamed as alif in word pakistan stands for Afghania.



Yaraaa the 'A' stands for 'Afghania' instead of 'Afghan' or 'Afghanistan' if I remember Chaudry Rehmat Ali's Pamphlet ! 

Besides Pakistan isn't just an acronym; its a proper noun that means something - the Land of the Pure ! 
@Hyperion @haviZsultan @Abu Zolfiqar & others can shed better light on what are the origins of the word 'Afghan' ! 

Waisee you guys are called 'Afghans' & 'Pashtuns' & 'Pukhtoons' & 'Pathans' - Khan yee kiyaa story hai ?

A Punjabi remains a Punjabi in Urdu, Pashto, Punjabi or even Russian & the same can be said about a 'Baloch', a 'Sindhi', a 'Bihari' & so on & so forth !

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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Read that thread again, he mostly called names to pakhtuns of FATA and KPK. He was telling pakistanis to get rid of lar pakhtuns while they would get rid of bar pakhtuns.



Luffy, let me tell you who you are... There was a wall... lets say its name was Afghanistan. One day someone who did not teach you respect for Pakistani sarzameen put super-duper, ultra-super, mega-glue on the wall and pasted your butt there. Now everytime someone tries to remove you from Afghanistan you start screaming like a you're being raped.

You know very well no one here knows what the hell a bar or lar pashtun actually is, many don't even know what the hell Pashtun means since they have always referred to us as Pathans, many Pashtuns themselves too. Even on that forum one of your admins confused lar and bar Pashtuns. A lot of people don't know that a Pashtun is another word for Pathan or Pakhtun or as some say it (though I have disassociated myself with it because of blackmail) Afghan. 

I think armstrong has either been researching heavily or reading members posts here very carefully to learn about the subject as quickly as possible. Rest don't know what the hell all this is. Your own information posted from another site proved lar Pashtuns have no idea about Ahmed Shah Abdali (Durrani's), the Hotak's, the Suri's, the Lodhi's. Lol. Use your brain, Luffy.

Stop trying to find little chick-chick of ignorance in each and every egg... or you will go hungry and won't have anything to drape your body, refugee. Stop this mission to divide people. I have been wondering why my posts are ignored (not by you-others) and I have found there are three reasons:

1) People have no clue what the hell I am talking about. They simply do not have a grasp on history. 
2) Too long (book writer syndrome )
3) Unawareness about the terminology. lar, bar, loy afghanistan.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Armstrong said:


> Yaraaa the 'A' stands for 'Afghania' instead of 'Afghan' or 'Afghanistan' if I remember Chaudry Rehmat Ali's Pamphlet !
> 
> Besides Pakistan isn't just an acronym; its a proper noun that means something - the Land of the Pure !
> @Hyperion @haviZsultan @Abu Zolfiqar & others can shed better light on what are the origins of the word 'Afghan' !
> 
> Waisee you guys are called 'Afghans' & 'Pashtuns' & 'Pukhtoons' & 'Pathans' - Khan yee kiyaa story hai ?
> 
> A Punjabi remains a Punjabi in Urdu, Pashto, Punjabi or even Russian & the same can be said about a 'Baloch', a 'Sindhi', a 'Bihari' & so on & so forth !



Word Pathan is alien to us, it was used for us in india. All desi people across indus use it for us.
Pashtun and pakhtun are one and same, used in sheen dialect and kheen dialect respectively. We identify ourselves as pashtuns.
Afghan is a refined title for us, we use it in our literature, speeches, books, documents, media etc. Its daily life use is not that much as pashtun. After 1947 this title is fading away from lar pakhtuns due to pressures.

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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Word Pathan is alien to us, it was used for us in india. All desi people across indus use it for us.
> Pashtun and pakhtun are one and same, used in sheen dialect and kheen dialect respectively. We identify ourselves as pashtuns.
> Afghan is a refined title for us, we use it in our literature, speeches, books, documents, media etc. Its daily life use is not that much as pashtun. *After 1947 this title is fading away from lar pakhtuns due to pressures.*



What pressures ?


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Armstrong said:


> What pressures ?



Come on yara , i dont need to explain that. Suppose a question come to you in exam, that explain why word afghan should'nt be used for pakistani pashtuns? What are the advantages?
Then what will be your answer?


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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Come on yara , i dont need to explain that. Suppose a question come to you in exam, that explain why word afghan should'nt be used for pakistani pashtuns? What are the advantages?
> Then what will be your answer?



My answer would be : They can call themselves the *Oompa Loompas* for all I care as long as they place Pakistan first & foremost ! And to be honest I'm more than convinced that you my friend are a fairly small minority with most Pakistani Pashtuns not going head over heels over the Afghans !

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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Tell your orakzai girl to behave like a respectable lady and stop swearing.


That gutter from Afghanistan opened again? Don't you remember your people were selling their body parts in the streets of Kabul-women just stood at the corners to sell themselves to anyone who offered it. 

What is your problem what someone else does? People swear when they get angry... she wears a headscarf, she is a noble woman, she struggled for the Orakzai all her life, tried to improve things in Pakistan unlike a keyboard warrior like you but her issue becomes her Pakistani patriotism and truth is you would kill all these people for Afghanistan. A friend of yours on that forum made the same comment anyway. You called Abdul Qayyum Khan a non-pashtun, you called Imran Khan a non-pashtun and lalak jan a Kashmiri without researching his ethnic origin. Anyone who does not agree has to be degraded. 

Anyone with honor would swear when his/her country is insulted.Very much like your eternally hurting butt being set on fire and brain exploding the moment you hear negativity about Afghanistan though the abuse of Pakistan on the other forum never seems to hurt you one bit. 

Luffy after stupid comments like these I really imagine you as a stone age barbarian living with Hakimullah Maseed in a little shack. Sta sa kor shta? haan, bacha? Ta Refugee de? 



Monkey D Luffy said:


> Even a starving and dying Afghan would not bow down his head to you. You think they are not dying and starving due to war , destruction and poverty for last 3 decades? These people have unbelievable patience and stamina that a burger-khor pathan like you would never possess. You dont need to talk about afghanistan, many pakistanis are of opinion that your waziristan should be nuked or it should be depopulated to finish the TTP once and for all.



Since 1983... when we Pakistani Pashtuns/lar Pashtuns had the luck of escaping your evil clutches you have successively sold yourselves. First you sold us and ignored our 30+ rebellions against British rule calling us dal-khor and british agents. Your foreign policy was completely controlled by the British I might add. Then a few years later the Russians came and owned you. Without the help of Pakistan/lar Pashtuns your women wouldn't be swearing (which is a non-issue)... no... they would be dancing in Russian clubs... I don't need to say more. Now the same thing is happening with the Americans. 

Luffy, knowing me... you wouldn't have dared to make this comment. But your purpose in life has become to provoke me somehow. I am writing about Waziristan... I won't let anyone insult them, I have seen the issues, talked to people and have defended the people of Waziristan once before. Stop trying to pitch our countrymen against each other, stop trying to utilize our issues to create divisions. You don't even have a news agencies in Afghanistan. Daily 3-4 people die on average due to the ethnic and gang war in Afghanistan and it goes unreported. 

People who lack knowledge talk about nuking Waziristan for the actions of a few miscreants. An old friend from Afghanistan (A tajik) stated that she wants to bomb all of Afghanistan... kill each one of them. She was angry with her fellow people for being primitive to the point of no return and supportive of militancy and Taliban-inspired ways... which I also see in you. You are the property of a farsiwan... bombed in a US airstrike which never seems to give a damn whether its killing civilians or militants. If a farsiwan pushes you around in a wheelchair all day long then its not our fault. 

Go do bachaybazi. We Pashtuns here don't have it. Its a national feature of your land. You should worry about the suggestions Farsiwan's give. If you don't believe check what they say on youtube. Not a single Punjabi or anyone else will be swearing at Pashtuns. In fact it will only be Afghans (Nation) and their pathetic backers. You are a disgrace.

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## haviZsultan

Luffy, you are acting like a Taliban militant. Why don't you condemn the two lar Pashtuns manhandled today... before 2 afridis were murdered by Afghans (nation). Not a single word against that. Basically you are justifying everything that country does. In 70's, 80's their army was so pathetic we could have invaded them in days. They had only some 70,000 men compared to our massive army. Now with the help of USA you have reached 200,000. Thank your masters for propping you up each and every time. First the British who signed a deal with you to save Kandahar and Kabul too which would eventually have fallen, then the Soviets and their puppet Najibuddin and finally the Americans with puppet Karzai. 

This is a very atypical Taliban mindset, Luffy and I believe your purpose is to make the war Pashtuns have to fight today much, much more difficult.

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## Secur

haviZsultan said:


> Secur I just wanted to clarify this point. I think you know my background... if not you can look through my previous posts to find out that I am a wannabe Pashtun gradually adopting the language and culture who has studied them and now knows about their history more than Pashtuns do themselves. I love Pashtuns, want to be like them, true but you don't know the whole story.
> 
> Our grandfather came to Pakistan a little late when most families had already moved. My father was a kid and so were most brothers and everyone else. Our mothers side stayed in Lucknow though-always supported Pakistan even till very late. Only now her brother has turned Indian.
> 
> You would have noticed I say us when I condemn Muhajirs. That is because I am still loyal to the Firangi mahal house and the Ansari family from which I belong. We are a Muhajir family basically with perhaps unproven, limited Pashtun links, though no one really speaks Pashto amongst us and there is no proof of the past family legends-those also very few people know. I insist that instead of becoming a separate community we should have done everything in our power to integrate as Pakistanis and only that and if not that... into the various ethnic groups already present. By not doing so and becoming an ethnic group (God knows how this came to be) we exacerbated ethnic tensions. Later we formed a political party... is it coincidence that crime went up the roof in the late 1980's? An Indian member made a very valid point. How come the communities that migrated to India (Sikhs and Hindus) didn't become Muhajirs? Why did we adopt a term that is basically derogatory for ourselves... and we can't say other ethnic groups don't want to accept us, did we try? Its just an escape.
> 
> And that was how it was supposed to be. Jinnah referred to the refugees as Muhajirs at times but not once did he suggest that it would be permanent setup. It was basically a term used till the Muhajirs settled down and Jinnah has made numerous speeches that he expected they would later merge with the respective communities to make a very homogenous setup (this has happened to an extent for those who moved to places other than Karachi and I have a number of friends like these who do not call themselves Muhajir despite having crossed the border)... Instead we made ourselves into an elite community that wanted all the power... separate from the rest.
> 
> You can look through my older posts and you will find posts about how close our links to Lucknow, Hyderabad and Delhi are... since we moved late. There are also a number of people I know who were killed... some in the aftermath of gujarat riots, (no we didn't move after that-for some reason borders were sealed so we couldn't even more affected relatives or cousins) when the riots spread to Hyderabad. There may even be a video around. Here. Some are very close members of distant family or friends. I spent time with one of the people on the video. BTW I don't know all the people-some are relatives of people I know and the channel ain't mine:
> 
> 
> 
> When you lose someone basically you understand the importance of your country. You also look at the nature of your people. We are diverging. We once only had the word Pakistan zindabad on our lips and where are we now, cursing fellow Pakistanis? I could have hated Hindu's all my life for this but I know many Hindus suffered the same thing and continue to suffer it in Pakistan. The issue is building up a National identity as Jinnah envisioned (for which he made claims like abandon provincialism and the 11 August address) and it cannot be built if we are too divided in the ethnic and religious sense. Being a Pakistani means accepting every religious and ethnic group as our own and in time our ethnic identities were to disappear. We are supposed to be a nation, not a squabbling group of people who hate each other!
> 
> Instead after we moved... we forgot everything. We became racist to other races, we abused them and we looked down upon them. My khandaan members have been involved in some of the worst abuse to Pashtuns, Sindhis, Balochs and Punjabis.
> 
> Personally once we settled we should have helped the ethnic groups... thats what you do when you are in a better position right? Instead I just cannot understand why there is this sense of insecurity and why "hamari pehchaan" has to mean MQM despite its atrocities, its just that we want a Muhajir, a person from our community who we will vote for no matter what his record? Thats how an educated community behaves? Sounds like Jihalat. Furthermore we feel insecure? But why???? We have a gdp per capita according to H&H higher than anyone else (We earn +13,000 rupees more than the ethnic group that comes second according to this report), an HDI much better than anyone else. Take a simple example. Of the directors for radio Pakistan in Karachi 30% have been Muhajir, not a single baloch, 2-3 Pashtuns and Sindhis, rest punjabis. Compared this to the population. We are 8% of the total. We have a disproportionate role and we have built ourselves a tower with the help of Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs put ourselves at the top!
> 
> We take pride in the fact that we made Pakistan (though I hold this is a form of self-gratification and we should say that all ethnic groups made Pakistan and suffered equally for its formation) then why the hell can't we act like it? No one leaves his race, Secur. I saw things with my eyes. I am also a journalist so I get information others don't. I can qoute figures... numbers stats from reports and study's and I know. We are controlling Karachi and mistreating everyone else. Urdu is the national language and it is being imposed on everyone else... even the Punjabis. I saw my family abusing a Sindhi watchman in front of my eyes, at least people have respect not to abuse someone for his race in front of him. We didn't even have that honor? Then we ignore the crimes committed by Altaf. Does anyone ask about the situation in 92 when operation clean-up was launched? Violence was becoming a norm. What else could be done... and immediately the operation became an attack on Urdu-speakers... And guess what. I can post the report... every police officer remotely linked to that operation is linked... even the constables and sergeants under him.
> 
> I have stories upon stories... not from Sindhis or someone else... but fellow Muhajirs who were forced to pay extortion to MQM gangs. And now we want operations everywhere in Waziristan when we cry so much "bias this, discrimination that" about one little operation cleanup. We basically act like hypocrites Secur.
> 
> Now yes, about your statement. Even my Muhajir family/khandaan never ever stated any anti-pakistani feelings and love Pakistan in their own ways-even though some bhoot enters their body to defend Altaf's speech. There is a fool, an ideological cousin of Luffy but he is a wine-snobbing, morally-weak PPP supporter in Canada from the party which has an uneven ratio of producing some of the worst traitors to this country. But the issue is far different than that. Its what we teach our kids, its the conversations that take place in our living rooms and they consist of kicking Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs out. We say no one exept Muhajirs should enter Karachi... we insult people from other ethnic groups in front of them... my cousins and relatives have done it! And its really sad. This wasn't supposed to be how Pakistan was, we were to meld. Become one!
> 
> I rebelled against not only our khandaan, but all of society... I just said, enough! The message I wish to give is that ethnicity is temporary, a fluid concept that does not and should not be used to pitch us against each other. I wish to say... Pakistan comes first, make a statement of ethnic unity. I wish to stand against the discrimination.
> 
> I know my learning Pashtun language, knowing more about Pashtun geography, culture and history more than many people on Pakistani side know themselves will never be appreciated. But people don't understand what I am trying to say. Loving Pashtuns is a part of it, yes... I'd be crazy to be writing about Pashtuns, seeing the bias against them while they kept shouting Long live Pakistan not to love them dearly... but this is about more than that. Its about our unity. Its about Nationalism. Its about making the statement that all cultures in this country are extremely beautiful, that we do not have to hate our own people.
> 
> You will notice that despite adopting Pashtun culture I usually try not to comment on an issue holding too much sentimental value or which can be used by people like Luffy for example Bacha Khan. Basically about the forum I am talking about there were no Tajiks, Uzbeks or Hazaras. It was basically Pashtuns from Afghanistan insulting Pakistan, Punjabis and Pakistani Pashtuns (according to them we were Punjabi slaves) constantly. It was no one else. But people are unwilling to believe fellow Pashtuns can do this... so the conversation here has gone off on Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks being the root of the issue, which in many ways is also true.
> 
> It proves people are a little defensive when it comes to ethnicity and I am trying to say... that is what Altaf Hussain or a leader who does politics on ethnic basis uses to his advantage just in the way Luffy or darkinsky do to create divisions. There is a cousin of ours who simply cannot hear a negative word about India (Lucknow is and should be a part of Pakistan being a heart of Muslim League-so should Hyderabad)... its a weakness. We can't be loyal to other nations just because they have some of our ancestors or people from our ethnic group. Everyone disagrees with him... but in anyway it proves that these ethnic identities can be used against Pakistan's unity.
> 
> What I described happens in my family... I am sure it happens in almost every urdu-speaking family and probably in those of other ethnic groups as a friend of mine beautifully put it when i was thinking of adopting Pashtun culture and ways-I basically learned that there are bigots everywhere finding a whole army of them on the other forum-they abused me so much I felt very unsure about myself-Luffy's best friend, the most racist person on the forum even told me I was a donkey trying to adopt lion's skin (Non-Pashtun trying to be Pashtun.
> 
> Thing is these issues on the basis of ethnicity shouldn't be there people like me and you can stop it. We love our country... and by loving our country it means loving every other ethnic group in it. Its the essence of Pakistan, Secur. We cannot deny it. Its not a country built on a race or ethnic group but a beautiful amalgamation of 200+ languages. Frankly no one can learn the ways of 200+ cultures... but i will of the 4 main in my mission to promote brotherhood. A fractured country cannot function. We cannot allow ourselves to be fractured.
> 
> We can start with our homes secur. I challenge anyone who criticizes another ethnic group. You can do it too... together... we can play a role in the removal of ethnic bigotry from our country. I have nothing against Muhajirs... I just feel being born one I have a right to condemn them and how they behaved. It won't be the same if I do it for another ethnic group though, even my adopted one-because its like after becoming one I am trying to tell people what to do. A good way to describe me is that I don't count Muhajir history (there is nothing such as Muhajir-i still hold btw) after 47 and the history of Afghanistan since 1983 (It was the year when southern regions separated and durand line came into being. Before that we were one nation which is basically the reason for the pain in Sher Malang and Luffy's bum.)
> 
> That is why I don't want @Hyperion and @Andromache to be quiet to Luffy, because only people from the ethnic group they belong to can fight bigots and prove them wrong, though in this case it is my sincere hope that I may be able to convert Luffy though I cannot help but despise what he proposes. Me he will always label a non-pashtun. He did the same with Imran Khan because he happened to live in Mianwali!



Well I always thought of you as Pushtoon who had a keen insight and interest in Mujahirs ( but yes this thought crossed my mind when I read one of Luffy's post however it was immediately dismissed by my mind ) but here I read it is the other way around , mate  ... So , you were interested and impressed by Pushtoon culture and adoped it ? Thats great , actually thats what all people should do , look for their connections with other ethnicities , take an interest in other's culture , learn about them and clear their misconceptions and myths - so in the end they realize that it is utter stupidity to fight for ethnicity ... I think very highly of you now , sir ...

I am genetically diverse , friend  My mother came from UP and my father from the East Pakistan - both of which had migrated to Pakistan ... The count was one high for my father whose family first migrated from Bihar to East Pakistan and then from Bangladesh to Pakistan when the highly regrettable and sad tragedy happened on 16 Dec , 1971 ... However I was born on this soil and inherited deep loyalty to the state of Pakistan ... But always considered myself as a Pakistani first before calling myself " Muhajir " , " Urdu speaking " or immigrants ( which technically I cant be , since I acquired the nationality of this country by " jus soli " Latin " the right of the soil " ) ... Instead of becoming Pakistanis , the loyal immigrants took the word " Muhajir " - a kind of discriminatory word to be their identity ... No wonder , ethnic tensions increased , it has always happened around the world in the same manner ... Why the crime rose in the 80's ? Zia's blunder - more worst than what even after the separation of East Pakistan can be happened creating a very wider divide between immigrants and other ethnicities ... Because , they thought that just like Bengalis , they weren't being treated well , a few minor incidents were used by Muhajir nationalist leaders as a fuel for the process ... The negligence of the Govt was another cause , giving rise to the parties like MQM which can only thrive on ethnic cards - they have no other foundation ... The operation done in '94 was a well calculated one launched against a traitor and his very party's armed goons who were terrorizing the city ... Therefore , it can be in no way be understood as an action against Urdu speakers or anything like that ... The traitor ran away to London and his dream of dividing Pakistan was never fulfilled ... One asks " Why doesn't he return when his party is a coalition partner in the Govt ? " ... The answer is simple " he knows what we will happen to him " ... He wasn't even ready to appear in court facing the charges of contempt against court ... What son of soil fears his own motherland ?

Jinnah's dream of merging immigrants with the other communities of Pakistan , sadly remained distant but it is fast becoming a reality now by more and more immigrants marrying with other ethnicities of Pakistan and people fast forgetting to distinguish between different races in a big city like Karachi ... I study in a University at the moment and nobody honestly cares who's who now - they befriend and talk to students without bothering to ask " Hey , where are you from ? " ... But somehow I still believe we stomped on the Jinnah's grave by doing that mistake - by thinking partition was and by maligning other Pakistanis of different races  ... But it will be rectified , ethnic identities will disappear and we will be one nation , the time will be soon ...

One wonders how exactly can a single political party in Pakistan represent all Muhajirs , do all the other people hate us ? Are we the new kid on the block who feels insecure somehow ? Who's willing to vote for a party that is involved in all sort of heinous crimes itself ? Does it happen that we have no choice ? That we have to vote for those who have perpetrated the murder of own people ( of Urdu speakers who again here disagreed with them ! ) , tortured and kidnapped the same immigrants , want protection money from the same people that they claim to lead ? Are we that blind ? Unfortunately , yes that will being the as you said the most prosperous group of people in Pakistan with extensive and proper representation in every single of the country's institutions ... It can only change once a nationalist party gains dominance in the city , opens the eyes of people and makes them realize that they dont need to vote to a specific political party to feel secure ...

The pride in the fact that we have struggled far more than anyone for this country isn't wrong but this doesn't makes us superior to anyone else ! We did what was better for us , we accepted the two nation theory , we knew what we faced before partition and we came to this country for good ! ... Yes we in a way control this city and want all others to be submissive ... Do others do the same to you ? I dont think so ... I know about this thing in our lot to dream of everyone leaving this city for good and for us only ... HAVE WE GONE CRAZY ! What are we teaching the next generation who are to take charge of this country next ? WHAT ? That this city is only for Urdu speakers , that we only deserve to work here , that everybody else has to seek our permission ? **** THAT THINKING ! This is Pakistan , not our personal mansion ! 

What does it change if the people dont appreciate your incredible detailed understanding of Pushtoons just to fight bigotry and bias ? Nothing , mate , nothing ... Get that thought out of here , we are here to defend it ! Loving every race that resides within the country is part of us ... I know how much anti Pakistan Afghans are , despite accepting our hospitality and our help in their liberation else their names would today be ending with Gregrowich or something ! We made a mistake , we should have let the Soviet's take control , let these kids teach a lesson who have been with each other for 200 years ... Instead we started importing the people from other countries in Central Asia which today are a major headache for us , a poison mix that be ! 

People are defensive because mistake race for their existence , they think they wont be nothing without it ... Which is what every politician loves most , because he can easily manipulate a whole lot of people to fulfill his agenda ... Am I loyal to India or Bangladesh despite my ancestors coming from both countries ? Then what the hell has gone wrong with some Pashtuns who think they are somehow incomplete without that hell hole called as Afghanistan ? 

Yes , its a general problem you described ... This happens in almost all homes in some form whether it be the superiority delusions , be it kicking everyone out or in the extreme creating a whole new province or even a country ... That makes one thing clear - we aren't afraid of self-criticism because only through understanding can there be any hope for recovery ... Yes , like he's the authority on Pashtuns - declaring who's one of them and not ! I hate this kind of thing , tbh ... 

Yes , we love our country , everything comes after it ... We are a part of this beautiful ancient civilization which is one of the oldest , we enjoy the diverse cultures , landscapes , weather everything , the blessing of God fall upon this land ... Make one thing very clear to everyone - there's no such thing as Muhajirs , those people are successfully integrated into the Pakistani society with more than equal share and today they are known as Pakistanis ... 

Does it change anything ?  ... Stop taking these idiots seriously ...

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## jandk

Looks like pashtuns have hatred for pakistan. I feel bad for them because they lost land because of british imperialism. If I were pashtun in pakistan I would hate pakjabi domination and try to defer to my homeland afghanistan in hope of better life...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

As stated many times before the only solution to Afghanistan is a merge of Afghan province into Pakistan 

Pakistan Army moving in and setting up Security for Locals of Afghan province , and setting up police force Nuclear Umbrella will protect any future invasion and protect Afghan province from future wars. 

Local Malitias can be dearmed 80-90% provided Military security forces of 40,000 Units move in Afghan regions also Pakistan can invite 10,000 Afghan soldiers for training , into police and military 

Two political Parties in Afghan provice can be formed to represent Afghan voice , which can take part in proper Pakistan Elections. 

Its the only solution - for Afghan Province

a) Take over all the flat areas of Afghanistan 
b) Maintain a Drone patrol over the mountain areas 

Closure of Illegal Arms trade in Afghan region 

Pakistan help is closure of Arms trade , Illegal Drugs we get the stability to move into 21st Century

GREATER Pakistan Where Afghanistan is province of Pakistan will also give Democracy for residents and who know perhaps water and infrastructure projects roads and railway








Unless this is done the random 100-120 people will keep moving into Pakistan do the Terrorist attacks and then disappear into Afghanistan 

What Pakistan needs is initiative

a) Secure Afghania Province
b) Help bring Afghan locals into Parliment with Democratic Party into Pakistani Parliment
c) Move in 10,000-40,000 Soldiers for the Operation supported by Airforce and Army 
d) Etablishment of Safe areas and End of Terrorism 


I think people of Afghan province are also tired of few people with Assault rifles living lives of 
luxury by fear


I imagine 40,000 Pakistani Soldiers , supported by 9,000 Locals 

+ 100 Tanks 
+ 100 APC 
+ 20 JF17 Thunders for the Operations
+ 20 Mirages 

This force is sufficient to capture the Culprits who killed Pakistani Soldiers 

I think the People doing the Terrrorism are merely 2000-5000 people so the operation should be pretty straight forward


*WE NEED THE REGION NOT TO BE LAWLESS ... WILD WILD WEST THE AREA NEEDS TO BE SECURED*

The lawlessness in Afghan province is a "recepie for constant terrorism into Pakistan"

Also since Pakistan already has a Democratic Parliment , it would be easy for New Party from Afghan Province to join the Elections and Educated people to get into government from Afghan province

*Goal of the Mission should be *

** End all Drug Trade in Afghan Province 
** Curb the illegal Smuggling of weapons in and out of Afghanistan via Pakistan 
in middle
** Curb the Terrorism by Warlords by Military retalition
** Protect Pakistani cities and twons from 1000-5000 warlords 
** Bulldoze any illegal arms factors or shops that build weapons 
** Provide farmers alternative crops for farming 
** Help train 100,000 Police force in Afghan Province
** Setup of Permenant Miliatry posts for Pakistani Forces to prevent Terrorism 
to gain ground in Afghan Province.
** Establishment of Schools , Hospitals and Police Centers in Local Cities

Help bring democracy in Afghan Province by means of political parties who become part of *Pakistani Parliment * , 5 Million to 10 Million Afghans already have Pakistani Travel Documents 
we just need to provide this service to another 7 million and Help bring peace in the Afghan province

All Pakistan Banks , Schools , Universities etc open branches in Afghan province

Once we secure the area and educate enough people , they will take care of security themselves

*But we cannot have warlords running around with Assault rifles*


The other side of the coin is ... 

Same lawlessness, drugs , terrorism ... uncertainity , no nuclear umberella .. more bombings and suicide bombs


I think if this initiative is taken 

Afghanistan will be a safe province for all to visit and Terrorism in Pakistan will die out 95% -99% 
and Pakistan will go back to Pakistan of 60's a progressive , moderate country with no drugs

And quality of life in Afghan provicne will no doubt improve by 300% economically and education prespective

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## notsuperstitious

Thanks havizsultan for clarifying your roots. I used to think Luffy insane for suggesting you are a muhajir who claims to be a pashtun, but it turns out he is not the insane one.

BTW you are making absolutely dishonest claim about people who moved to india from pakistan, those punjabis and sindhis are still very much a separate ethnic group in India, they do not claim to be a bihari or tamilian or marathi here. Your theories are downright weird, you just say what is soothing for most pakistanis to hear, although not true or just insane.

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## KS

fateh71 said:


> Thanks havizsultan for clarifying your roots. I used to think Luffy insane for suggesting you are a muhajir who claims to be a pashtun, but it turns out he is not the insane one.
> 
> BTW you are making absolutely dishonest claim about people who moved to india from pakistan, those punjabis and sindhis are still very much a separate ethnic group in India, they do not claim to be a bihari or tamilian or marathi here. Your theories are downright weird, you just say what is soothing for most pakistanis to hear, although not true or just insane.



True...I just felt utmost weird and laughable an UPite who migrated to Pak during Partition and who just managed to learn some Pushto talking down upon a born Pathan who probably lived in those lands for 1000 years as a refugee and using the words "us Pathans"..massive wannabe-ness and playing to the gallery..but then why should we as Indians tell that and add misery to that monkey fellow.

If a guy knew some tamil and started to talk down upon me, I would bitchslap him and show him his place as nothing but a wannabe..

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## gangsta_rap

fateh71 said:


> Thanks havizsultan for clarifying your roots. I used to think Luffy insane for suggesting you are a muhajir who claims to be a pashtun, but it turns out he is not the insane one.
> 
> BTW you are making absolutely dishonest claim about people who moved to india from pakistan, those punjabis and sindhis are still very much a separate ethnic group in India, they do not claim to be a bihari or tamilian or marathi here. Your theories are downright weird, you just say what is soothing for most pakistanis to hear, although not true or just insane.






KS said:


> True...I just felt utmost weird and laughable a bihari who migrated to Pak during Partition and who just managed to learn some Pushto talking down upon a born Pathan who probably lived in those lands for 1000 years as a refugee and using the words "us Pathans"..massive wannabe-ness and playing to the gallery..but then why should we as Indians tell that and add misery to that monkey fellow.
> 
> If some other guy knew some tamil and started to talk down upon me, I would bitchslap him and show him his place as nothing but a wannabe..



Do you two Indians even understand the circumstances under which muhajirs are adopting this practice? I believe you don't,so why would you even bother to criticize hafiZsultan's stance,let alone berate him. What he is trying to do is very believable,he's trying to renounce the damage that the muhajirs have done over the last two decades.Being a muhajir myself parts of my extended family are doing the same,we would very much consider ourselves Sindhi instead.
Don't even get me started on why you both are sympathizing with Luffy.

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## KS

GIANTsasquatch said:


> Do you two Indians even understand the circumstances under which muhajirs are adopting this practice? I believe you don't,so why would you even bother to criticize hafiZsultan's stance,let alone berate him. What he is trying to do is very believable,he's trying to renounce the damage that the muhajirs have done over the last two decades.Being a muhajir myself parts of my extended family are doing the same,we would very much consider ourselves Sindhi instead.



Why is that the former migrants to India have no such pretensions and are happy with their own identity ?




GIANTsasquatch said:


> Don't even get me started on why you both are sympathizing with Luffy.



Why ? I have made that pretty clear. I believe a person can have multiple identities like religious, linguistic, ethnic and national identities, give them all equal importance and still not be insecure about being a patriot. Luffy is prolly the only guy who thinks like that while u people want to destroy your ethnic identities because of your fear that it will overwhelm your national identities.

Any way consider my reply irrelevant to your politics and this thread...I was just replying to another Indian.

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## notsuperstitious

KS said:


> True...I just felt utmost weird and laughable an UPite who migrated to Pak during Partition and who just managed to learn some Pushto talking down upon a born Pathan who probably lived in those lands for 1000 years as a refugee and using the words "us Pathans"..massive wannabe-ness and playing to the gallery..but then why should we as Indians tell that and add misery to that monkey fellow.
> 
> If a guy knew some tamil and started to talk down upon me, I would bitchslap him and show him his place as nothing but a wannabe..



We English consider that laughable too.



GIANTsasquatch said:


> Do you two Indians even understand the circumstances under which muhajirs are adopting this practice? I believe you don't,so why would you even bother to criticize hafiZsultan's stance,let alone berate him. What he is trying to do is very believable,he's trying to renounce the damage that the muhajirs have done over the last two decades.Being a muhajir myself parts of my extended family are doing the same,we would very much consider ourselves Sindhi instead.
> Don't even get me started on why you both are sympathizing with Luffy.



You have hit upon a brilliant Idea. If all Pakistanis become Punjabis using this novel method then that would solve 99% of all Pakistan's problems.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it's a total waste of time to even delve into the name of the country....

Pakistan is Pakistan, that's the name of the country. if people are gonna go into debates about the name of the country they are just wasting time

i wish some of PDF'ers i see here were in front of me so i could line them up and literally hold them by the shoulders and shake them back and forth so they could get all these stupid distractions out of their system

i

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## haviZsultan

One reason I like debating with you is because I have become sure that I will get a reply... despite my sorry and insane-fully long posts. I have to wonder how you find the energy. Me, I do because I am a book writer and author of 40+ articles, so writing is a passion. 

Personally I am undeserving of things such as respect. My purpose is to make a difference in this country and to help improve it. It is not our Nationalist way. I am glad there are people who understand these things. I just come here sometimes, then disappear on a project but personally I'd like to see u @Secur on the think tank. Though I must admit I would also like to be there as it may improve my position when I seek a publisher. 



Secur said:


> Well I always thought of you as Pushtoon who had a keen insight and interest in Mujahirs ( but yes this thought crossed my mind when I read one of Luffy's post however it was immediately dismissed by my mind ) but here I read it is the other way around , mate  ... So , you were interested and impressed by Pushtoon culture and adoped it ? Thats great , actually thats what all people should do , look for their connections with other ethnicities , take an interest in other's culture , learn about them and clear their misconceptions and myths - so in the end they realize that it is utter stupidity to fight for ethnicity ... I think very highly of you now , sir ...



Learning another language is the hardest part. You see where I studied... I failed to learn both French or Arabic. 
But when you love your country and understand its essence-loving all its people then basically it becomes much easier which it has. Still have trouble with the "has" and masculine feminine. Pashto has de (male for has) and da (female for has) and dee for plural. Urdu just has "hai." 

Initially it was love for Pashtuns that led me to this and the bias I saw towards them... there is a lot in Karachi. Later when people were bashing me on the other forum and I was unsure of myself... I mean it was true what they were saying... I am a wannabe Pashtun... I thought it was more than about my love for Pashtuns. It was more about making a solid statement of ethnic unity. It would also give a strong statement to my family that we could integrate if we wanted and also against the MQM which wants to pitch Muhajirs against Pashtuns.

This ethnic unity has become my main purpose. I saw in Canada how we began fighting over it while Indians laughed at us. 


> I am genetically diverse , friend  My mother came from UP and my father from the East Pakistan - both of which had migrated to Pakistan ... The count was one high for my father whose family first migrated from Bihar to East Pakistan and then from Bangladesh to Pakistan when the highly regrettable and sad tragedy happened on 16 Dec , 1971 ... However I was born on this soil and inherited deep loyalty to the state of Pakistan ... But always considered myself as a Pakistani first before calling myself " Muhajir " , " Urdu speaking " or immigrants ( which technically I cant be , since I acquired the nationality of this country by " jus soli " Latin " the right of the soil " ) ... Instead of becoming Pakistanis , the loyal immigrants took the word " Muhajir " - a kind of discriminatory word to be their identity ... No wonder , ethnic tensions increased , it has always happened around the world in the same manner ... Why the crime rose in the 80's ? Zia's blunder - more worst than what even after the separation of East Pakistan can be happened creating a very wider divide between immigrants and other ethnicities ... Because , they thought that just like Bengalis , they weren't being treated well , a few minor incidents were used by Muhajir nationalist leaders as a fuel for the process ... The negligence of the Govt was another cause , giving rise to the parties like MQM which can only thrive on ethnic cards - they have no other foundation ... The operation done in '94 was a well calculated one launched against a traitor and his very party's armed goons who were terrorizing the city ... Therefore , it can be in no way be understood as an action against Urdu speakers or anything like that ... The traitor ran away to London and his dream of dividing Pakistan was never fulfilled ... One asks " Why doesn't he return when his party is a coalition partner in the Govt ? " ... The answer is simple " he knows what we will happen to him " ... He wasn't even ready to appear in court facing the charges of contempt against court ... What son of soil fears his own motherland ?



It is good to know about your background. I agree. Brings me to the Biharis as well whose cause I have always supported. Very sad how we abandoned thousands upon thousands of our supporters there. A number of my uncles moved to East Pakistan after partition. Were very rich once. Now moved to what was left of Pakistan.

But people who work in the field become hopeless. I have also been a leader of a Nationalist organization in the past, its canada chapter. Frankly I have been struggling for my country for years but the issue I have noticed is we are too divided to basically even think of promoting Pakistan's interests. When we do the Indians and others don't let us. The Indians have a very strong lobby in the US. 


> Jinnah's dream of merging immigrants with the other communities of Pakistan , sadly remained distant but it is fast becoming a reality now by more and more immigrants marrying with other ethnicities of Pakistan and people fast forgetting to distinguish between different races in a big city like Karachi ... I study in a University at the moment and nobody honestly cares who's who now - they befriend and talk to students without bothering to ask " Hey , where are you from ? " ... But somehow I still believe we stomped on the Jinnah's grave by doing that mistake - by thinking partition was and by maligning other Pakistanis of different races  ... But it will be rectified , ethnic identities will disappear and we will be one nation , the time will be soon ...



In my family there have been inter-marriages between us and Punjabi families even amongst a chacha. But I don't see the ideas disappearing. My chacha remains a staunch MQM supporter. But I guess the changes are coming about. What I see however are reactionaries being born and that worries me... these guys are basically fed on the childhood nonsense of non-existant oppression. It doesn't just apply here. For example Abdul Nishapuri. If we say its not a shia genocide they will say you are sympathizing with our killers.

If 5-10 people die in Karachi daily it has the potential to polarize society ethnically as terrorism has often done... people begin thinking of themselves as separate ethnic or religious groups. Its the fracturing power of these people I am worried about which makes me counter bigots and challenge them. 

I see the same dream as you though I must admit I do not share the optimism. Perhaps an effect of working in the field. Many people know me on account of my social work and Nationalism. Basically people like us get disillusioned after working hard and not seeing a change.  I have also been raised outside Pakistan. I want Pakistan to be prosperous tolerant and united. You see other countries doing well... no one dying daily... wish as hell we could be like that. 



> One wonders how exactly can a single political party in Pakistan represent all Muhajirs , do all the other people hate us ? Are we the new kid on the block who feels insecure somehow ? Who's willing to vote for a party that is involved in all sort of heinous crimes itself ? Does it happen that we have no choice ? That we have to vote for those who have perpetrated the murder of own people ( of Urdu speakers who again here disagreed with them ! ) , tortured and kidnapped the same immigrants , want protection money from the same people that they claim to lead ? Are we that blind ? Unfortunately , yes that will being the as you said the most prosperous group of people in Pakistan with extensive and proper representation in every single of the country's institutions ... It can only change once a nationalist party gains dominance in the city , opens the eyes of people and makes them realize that they dont need to vote to a specific political party to feel secure ...



Currently I don't see any Nationalist party in the political spectrum though. However I deeply wish for this change. Its up to us to bring about this change. It is my life's dream to host the Pakistan Nationalist Party but fortune isn't always kind. But I am greatly inspired by your views to continue my struggle. You can change things @Secur. You have found in me an ardent supporter. 


> The pride in the fact that we have struggled far more than anyone for this country isn't wrong but this doesn't makes us superior to anyone else ! We did what was better for us , we accepted the two nation theory , we knew what we faced before partition and we came to this country for good ! ... Yes we in a way control this city and want all others to be submissive ... Do others do the same to you ? I dont think so ... I know about this thing in our lot to dream of everyone leaving this city for good and for us only ... HAVE WE GONE CRAZY ! What are we teaching the next generation who are to take charge of this country next ? WHAT ? That this city is only for Urdu speakers , that we only deserve to work here , that everybody else has to seek our permission ? **** THAT THINKING ! This is Pakistan , not our personal mansion !



Yeah... and this is the most important thing. By understanding this we can save our Pakistan. Our country is for everyone... each of our cultures is beautiful... ours is the history of Mir Chakar (Baloch), ours was the empire of Ahmed Shah Durrani (Pashtun) ours were the kingdoms of Talpurs (Sindh), so was that of Malik Bir Khan Ghakar (Punjab)... its for all of us. There was a member here Bilal or something... have no idea where he went... i really liked him for being detached from the ethnic issue. 


> What does it change if the people dont appreciate your incredible detailed understanding of Pushtoons just to fight bigotry and bias ? Nothing , mate , nothing ... Get that thought out of here , we are here to defend it ! Loving every race that resides within the country is part of us ... I know how much anti Pakistan Afghans are , despite accepting our hospitality and our help in their liberation else their names would today be ending with Gregrowich or something ! We made a mistake , we should have let the Soviet's take control , let these kids teach a lesson who have been with each other for 200 years ... Instead we started importing the people from other countries in Central Asia which today are a major headache for us , a poison mix that be !



I agree. We have ruined everything for ourselves. 

I am inspired. There are twice as many here for every bigot... 


> People are defensive because mistake race for their existence , they think they wont be nothing without it ... Which is what every politician loves most , because he can easily manipulate a whole lot of people to fulfill his agenda ... Am I loyal to India or Bangladesh despite my ancestors coming from both countries ? Then what the hell has gone wrong with some Pashtuns who think they are somehow incomplete without that hell hole called as Afghanistan ?



Absolutely correct. There is no, absolutely no reason to define ethnic identity with another country. Plus its illogical. I proved it to him. 70-80% of all Pashtuns are in Pakistan, Afghanistan speaks Farsi and even most of the Pashtuns there Dari not Pashto, the other races dominate everything from transport to the military (see most of the ministers of the cabinet in Afghanistan and commander of the ANA), Pashtuns have become a slave race in that nation, the heart of Pashtun culture is Peshawar with a music, movie and entertainment industry with many events held for the promotion of Pashtun culture. 

I think people who have to define their nationalism with Afghanistan are seriously the most dumb people to walk the planet. They are unfortunate not to see the deep bond between the people in Pakistan. 


> Yes , its a general problem you described ... This happens in almost all homes in some form whether it be the superiority delusions , be it kicking everyone out or in the extreme creating a whole new province or even a country ... That makes one thing clear - we aren't afraid of self-criticism because only through understanding can there be any hope for recovery ... Yes , like he's the authority on Pashtuns - declaring who's one of them and not ! I hate this kind of thing , tbh ...



True...



> Yes , we love our country , everything comes after it ... We are a part of this beautiful ancient civilization which is one of the oldest , we enjoy the diverse cultures , landscapes , weather everything , the blessing of God fall upon this land ... Make one thing very clear to everyone - there's no such thing as Muhajirs , those people are successfully integrated into the Pakistani society with more than equal share and today they are known as Pakistanis ...
> 
> Does it change anything ?  ... Stop taking these idiots seriously ...



You should be in the think tank secur.  
Our views are largely in agreement.

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## RazPaK

Bhartis should not be allowed to participate in this thread.

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## Vassnti

haviZsultan said:


> Arranged attacks: Private war breaks out on Pak-Afghan border
> 
> LANDIKOTAL:
> *
> At least 29 Afghans were thrashed and their travel documents torn near the Torkham border on Thursday, apparently in retaliation to a similar attack on Pakistani workers by Afghan officials last week.
> 
> .*


*

So for dumbies like me who dont really understand Pashtunwali they beat up a random 29 Afghans that probably had nothing to do with what happened to their relatives under some strange concept of Badal?

In a time when the furthest you went was the next village perhaps there might have ben some point to the idea but in a world of international comunication what happens when ( note not if  ) Safriz posts some thing that pisses me off do i go down to the local take away and beat up the Pakistani waiter?

Perhaps time to stop beating up on innocent strangers because some thing gets your panites in a knot?*

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## Azazel

RazPaK said:


> Bhartis should not be allowed to participate in this thread.

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## haviZsultan

KS said:


> True...I just felt utmost weird and laughable an UPite who migrated to Pak during Partition and who just managed to learn some Pushto talking down upon a born Pathan who probably lived in those lands for 1000 years as a refugee and using the words "us Pathans"..massive wannabe-ness and playing to the gallery..but then why should we as Indians tell that and add misery to that *monkey fellow*.



You did not notice other Pashtuns talking to this Afghan-lover of course before shooting off like EDL member. Nationalism has been a part of me since I was born. Za Pashtun yam aw za Pakistani yam. Its not someones fathers job to tell the other who he is. As I said ethnicity is fluid. 

And you seriously need to watch that mouth. Talking of monkeys those devils jump across rooftops in your country and break into your houses. Having been in Lucknow for a while can tell those things are a real menace. May steal your dhoti some day from your house. They get into kitchens anyway. Maybe they stole your food which may be the reason for your belligerence today. 



> If a guy knew some tamil and started to talk down upon me, *I would bitchslap him and show him his place as nothing but a wannabe..*



Watch your ****** mouth, it is as dirty as a gunda nullah of one of the old areas of Delhi where bare-assed children squat and pee. Learn something from people like @KRAIT rather than provoking people by hiding under your elite membership. We Pashtuns don't fear anything and the first one to get slapped would be you when you poke your nose in our affairs. if you think of me as a wannabe there are dozens of others like @AstanoshKhan @Hyperion and @Andromache. 

You should watch whats going on at home:

A tamil liberation movement:
Tamil Nadu Liberation Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alternatively you could think about this too:


> How many people want independence for Tamil Nadu from Indian rule? I do not know. No one knows! Only way to know is to conduct a plebiscite (a vote) in Tamil Nadu with two choices: (a) I want Tamil Nadu to continue as a state of the Indian Union. (b) I want Tamil Nadu to be an independent country.
> 
> The Indian government would never allow such a plebiscite (a vote) voluntarily because they suspect that the outcome would be for an independent Tamil Nadu. Otherwise, they would have conducted such a vote and shut the few "loud voices of independence" once and for all. Given the choice between statehood within India and independence from India, and the future benefits to Tamil Nadu under statehood and independence explained by the pro-statehood and pro-independence leaders in public meetings, newspaper articles and radio-television debates, I believe that the people of Tamil Nadu would vote overwhelmingly for independence. I can never be sure but the only way to know for sure is through a plebiscite.
> 
> I have spoken in scores of meetings in Tamil Nadu about the need for independence for Tamil Nadu. It was always received enthusiastically not only by the younger generation but also by men and women in their fifties and sixties. Is this proof that a majority of the people of Tamil Nadu are for independence? I am not sure but the only way to ascertain it is through a plebiscite (a vote) and the Indian government refuses to conduct such a plebiscite.
> 
> Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) is undoubtedly a dominant political party in Tamil Nadu. DMK's original political platform was the establishment of an independent Tamil Nadu. It ran on this "freedom platform" (or, as the Indian Government would call it, the "separatist platform") in the 1962 general election and emerged as the second largest party winning 50 seats in the Tamil Nadu legislative assembly. In 1962, Congress was a powerful united party in Tamil Nadu under the leadership of the very popular and totally un-corrupt Kamaraj. DMK won fifty seats even against this powerful Congress Party on the "freedom platform". This scared the Indian government. What if DMK were to win a majority in the next election under the "freedom platform"? Within a year, the Indian government (under the pretense of national security against foreign threats) enacted a law prohibiting any party or person contesting elections on a "separatist platform". That is, no individual or no party can contest an election in Tamil Nadu (or, any other part of India) on a "freedom for Tamil Nadu" platform. Thus the Tamil people now have no way of expressing their view about whether they want Tamil Nadu to be a state in the Indian Union or want Tamil Nadu to be an independent country. Let the people of Tamil Nadu decide their future. Who gave that decision-making power to the Indian government controlled by Hindi speaking politicians?
> 
> I challenge the Indian government to conduct a poll in Tamil Nadu about independence for Tamil Nadu. Let both sides, those for independence and those against independence, go around Tamil Nadu and canvass for their position. Let there be debates on radio and television. Then let the people vote. If the majority of the people of Tamil Nadu vote to stay with India, the current status will continue. If the majority vote for independence, Indians should pack up and leave as the British did in 1947.
> 
> [While at it, I suggest that the Indian government conduct such plebiscites in Punjab, Assam, Kashmir, Nagaland, Tripura, Mizoram, Manipur and every nationality that seek independence from Indian rule also. Let the people decide whether they want to be part of India or want independence from India. Let the people decide instead of sending the Indian army to terrorize them. Let the people voice their opinion in a secret ballot instead of sending the army to brutalize the peace loving, freedom loving peoples of these nations.]
> 
> Now let us turn to Mr. Damodaran's second question.
> 
> 2. Is it possible to achieve independence?
> 
> Yes, it is possible. None of the Tamil Nationalists, including myself, is under any illusion that the liberation of Tamil Nadu from Indian rule (Hindian rule, actually) will be easy or quick. Under certain geo-political situations it could be easy and quick but the development of such a situation is beyond anyone's control. Such geo-political situations emerge through unforeseen random events. Even for Tamil Nadu to get its freedom under such a fortune circumstance, there must be an "independence movement" ("freedom movement") alive and in place. Let me give an example.
> 
> Minority Slovak people in the former Czechoslovakia got such a fortunate geo-political situation in the early 1990s when the Berlin wall came down and Russian troops left Czechoslovakia and the rest of Eastern Europe. Seizing the opportunity, the Slovak Independence Movement was able to divide Czechoslovakia into Czech Republic and Slovak Republic. Had there been no Slovak Independence Movement alive and in place at the time the Russian troops left Czechoslovakia, Slovak people would still be a minority in Czechoslovakia without a country of their own.
> 
> Look at Armenia. Armenians were an ancient people; they once had a great kingdom with mighty emperors. Then they were subjugated by Turks and Russians and were a people without a country for over a thousand years. But their desire for an Armenian nation never died. Flames of freedom were kept alive wherever Armenians lived. Then, seizing the occasion of a failed military coup in the Soviet Union and the ensuing "disorder" there in the early 1990s, Armenian Independence Movement declared an independent Armenian Republic and now they are a free people with their own country. Had there been no desire for independence in Armenian hearts, had there been no independence movement in Armenia, there would have been no independent Armenia today; it would have become a province of one of the other nations that emerged out of the Soviet Union. So an independence movement is necessary and the thirst for freedom should be kept alive in Tamil Nadu also.
> 
> Barring such fortunate geo-political circumstances, as it happened to the Slovak people and the Armenian people, can Tamil Nadu achieve independence from Indian (Hindian) rule? Yes, we need not wait for things to happen, we should make things happen. There is an old saying "The baby that cries gets the milk". It is for us to raise the independence slogans. It is for us to fight for independence. A small independence movement already exists in Tamil Nadu. I was fortunate enough to know some Tamil Nationalist in my younger years and they instilled in me a thirst for freedom for my country, Tamil Nadu. I know of Tamil Nationalists in the Indian Air Force and in the Indian Foreign Service. There are lawyers, movie actors/actresses, students, school teachers and professors; I would say that there are Tamils in virtually every walk of life who yearn for a free Tamil Nadu.
> 
> Once the Tamil Nadu independence struggle gathers momentum, we may get support and help from unexpected quarters. How did America get its freedom from Britain? It all started with a small army of dedicated volunteers. Who would have thought that it would soon send the mighty British army go home packing? Once the American independence struggle gained momentum, help came from an unexpected quarter; from across the ocean, thousands of miles away, from France. Soon American independence became a reality. Had they never started that independence struggle, there would never have been the French help and America would have been a British colony for many more decades at the least.
> 
> How did Afghanistan get rid of Soviet occupation? (Soviet Union was at that time a true superpower and was just next door to Afghanistan.) Once the Afghan freedom struggle intensified, help came in the form of sophisticated weapons and training from a far off land, the United States of America because the liberation of Afghanistan suited its geo-political interests. Had the Afghans never started their liberation struggle, thinking that they had no chance fighting the mighty Soviet Union, there would have been no American help and no liberation.
> 
> So, let us not get into a defeatist mentality. Let our cry for independence be loud and clear, we may get outside help from sources we may not even think of today.
> 
> Also, people of Tamil Nadu could expect cooperation and collaboration from other nationalities in the Indian subcontinent itself. Sikhs, Assamese, Tripurans, Kashmiris, Nagas, Mizos- all have disgruntlement about India with respect to the siphoning off of their central government taxes to the benefit of Hindi heartland and imposing Hindian-Aryan culture on them. Cooperation with these groups and a coordinated action plan would be a mighty force against the Hindian dominated Indian Government. We, the people of Tamil Nadu, should not wait expecting their help. We should make our demand for freedom heard loud and clear, and intensify our struggle for independence now. In due course we will get cooperation and collaboration from the other nationalities seeking independence from India too. Once all the disgruntled nationalities cooperate and put forth a coordinated fight against Indian rule (instead of each waging their struggle on their own), the Indian Union will not last for long. Let us light the flames of freedom, now.
> 
> We, the people of Tamil Nadu, should let go the "can't do" mentality and get into the "can do" mentality. Yes, we can free Tamil Nadu from Indian rule. Where is the Soviet Union now? How long will the Indian union last if Tamils and other discriminated nationalities form a coordinated force and fight for our freedom? We cannot speak for others; let us speak for Tamil Nadu; let us speak for our freedom! Other discriminated nationalities in India may cooperate with us, may collaborate with us. Outside help may come from unexpected sources. I am NOT saying that we should sit idle quietly waiting for other nationalities within India and other countries to come and liberate Tamil Nadu. No, not at all. We should continue with our independence movement and help will come in due course. But it is for us to start and continue with the independence movement. If we do not start the struggle, if we do not carry on with the struggle, no outsider will come to help us. Road to freedom may neither be short nor straight. There will be turns and dips and rises. But it is worth the effort. Freedom is sweet, rewards are great.
> 
> I will end this response with an anecdote. Some years ago, circus was in town. I took the children to the area where circus animals are kept. There were the circus elephants. One leg of each elephant was tied by a piece of iron chain to a little wooden peg driven into ground. These were very small pegs; elephants could easily pull them off and walk away, but these elephants did not. I asked about it to one of the men tending the animals. He told us about the mental conditioning of these elephants. When an elephant is captured, it is tied securely to the trunk of a large tree by iron chain. The elephant will try its best to get away but will be unable to do so. It will try day after day for several days in vain. Finally it will give up trying. Once the elephant stops trying, from then on it is simply tied to a little wooden peg by a piece of iron chain. The elephant is already mentally conditioned to think that it cannot escape. It will not try to pull off the peg and walk away.
> 
> Many Tamils and other discriminated nationalities in India are also conditioned to think that we cannot liberate our nations (*yes, Tamil Nadu is a nation by any objective criteria)* from Indian rule. Let us shake off that "can't do" mentality.
> *
> A free independent Tamil Nadu is our birthright!*
> 
> Let us ask for it!
> 
> Let us fight for it!
> 
> We will achieve it!!



If you don't want a Tamil like this coming and other telling Tamil people what they ought to do and what not then best leave us to deal with our Mir Jaffar's. It is extremely annoying when Indians put their nose in other peoples affairs trying to use an ethnic or sectarian issue for their short-sighted goals. This guy is in all probability a Taliban monkey sitting on the lap of Hakimullah Maseed, you support him and he will bomb Delhi. You can check Hakimullah's address greatly praising Afghan-lovers and Afghanistan for support but oops you don't know Pashto... at least I learned enough of the language to understand that message and am still learning. At least i know every bit of history, geographical location of tribes and the culture. But funny a Tamil from a place a liberation movement is in full swing is talking about a culture he has no idea of. 



fateh71 said:


> Thanks havizsultan for clarifying your roots. I used to think Luffy insane for suggesting you are a muhajir who claims to be a pashtun, but it turns out he is not the insane one.
> 
> BTW you are making absolutely dishonest claim about people who moved to india from pakistan, those punjabis and sindhis are still very much a separate ethnic group in India, they do not claim to be a bihari or tamilian or marathi here. Your theories are downright weird, you just say what is soothing for most pakistanis to hear, although not true or just insane.



Why don't you research what happened to every Muhajir who came to Pakhtunkhwa after partition? They started calling himself a Pashtun rather than Muhajir, learned the tongue and settled, now people can't even tell which is which. I know people like these especially in the Punjab. Now use your brain before shooting off. You know nothing about our politics and geography but you act like a drunk, scandalous wench at a bar or club eager to talk to or dance with every guy just so he may take you home and bang you... 

The thing with Luffy is that his butt eternally is glued to Afghanistan and he has no intention of being removed from it. On the other hand your bum is glued to India but you are interested in clawing your way to Pakistan even if it means India is divided like pan pizza. Which is more unfortunate?

Muhajir is supposed to be a temporary term given to migrants. it is far different for us to call ourselves Lucknowites... its a simple regional identity and can barely be used to give birth to an ethnic divide. As I have stated before I am proud of the Lucknowi background and my links to our ancestral house. I believe it hurts you that we (some members of family) are still in Lucknow while their hearts are in Pakistan. 

I could give you a link to Jinnah's speech that hinted at how temporary this term was meant to be but I believe you are not here for the purpose of learning about the issue. Your purpose I'm afraid is to kiss Luffy on the cheek or acting like a typical bacteria share some sort of symbiotic relationship with him... but Luffy being a coward ran off because of the vociferous opposition he faced here.

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## A.Rafay

@haviZsultan great post as usual, an eye opener and good answer to the troll.

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## haviZsultan

RazPaK said:


> Bhartis should not be allowed to participate in this thread.



Seriously 200% agree. Its very very annoying. Wish something could be done about this. They don't know about the topic and derail the debate other than taking advantage of our eternally existent ethnic issues. I have been a little sick today... all morning a little fly kept whizzing around my head as I slept. That's what these Indian members remind me of. 



Vassnti said:


> So for dumbies like me who dont really understand Pashtunwali they beat up a random 29 Afghans that probably had nothing to do with what happened to their relatives under some strange concept of Badal?
> 
> In a time when the furthest you went was the next village perhaps there might have ben some point to the idea but in a world of international comunication what happens when ( notre not if  ) Safriz posts some thing that pisses me off do i go down to the local take away and beat up the Pakistani waiter?
> 
> Perhaps time to stop beating up on innocent strangers because some thing gets your panites in a knot?



Badal is in fact a tradition (and the name of my book) and part of Pashtunwali... but everyone I have spoken to (Pashtun) seems to look down upon it though I tend not to discuss it as it is not a positive topic and (some) people still tend to think of me as a wannabe, concepts of race being drilled into us from birth. In other words many Pashtuns now reject Badal though I can take exception to some from Waziristan and tribal areas. Its not really a weakness of Pashtun culture as such... in fact even a positive aspect which made Pashtuns generals, soldiers and warriors. It was an ancient tradition and way because in those days there was no real police and justice system especially in the rural areas and big cities weren't the norm then (urbanization wasn't a trend back then). This made the Pashtuns strong and mighty and if you read our history you will be impressed at the empires we established. When someone was wronged it was basically up to you to take justice in those times and if you were meek and couldn't raise your sword you could do nothing. Personally for me it has even been suggested that I change the name of my book because it may be giving a negative connotation of Pashtun culture even though within I portray Pashtuns as victims... but the thing is that would spoil some things in the book and points i'd like to make (including some on drone attacks and collateral damage) through the story. Pashtun Intellectuals are now looking at this aspect a little more critically now... though I won't comment on my feeling as it's like I am trying to tell other Pashtuns what to do after adopting their race.

In either case its like the issue of Ijtehad as suggested by Iqbal. Iqbal stated that some of the principles of Islam ought to be re-interpreted on account of modern times. In the same way Pashtunwali needs to be re-interpreted on account of modern times. That is my personal assessment but @Hyperion @AstanoshKhan @Andromache @TaimiKhan @PakHtoon @Pashtun @ghilzai can cast better light on this. Personally I believe it would be a very interesting discussion but the issue is most Pashtuns don't know much about themselves and their culture much which gives people like Luffy an advantage. I personally have recited in front of Pashtuns poetry of Rehman baba and they don't know who he is even though he is the father of Pashto poetry. 

Btw I would request you and @KRAIT and other members to please deal with these annoying Indian individuals who are here to exacerbate tensions between local Pakistani people and don't have even a slight understanding of the various ethnic groups in Pakistan. 

And another thing. No one is really defending what was done to those Afghans (nation) but basically another point was being made which I believe is too complicated for outsiders to actually understand. By the way Afghans (nation) killed 2 Pakistanis and manhandled many more before this. In either case it does not justify a revenge attack. The point of posting the thread was to prove another point which was for Luffy and Sher Malang.

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## Azazel

haviZsultan said:


> You did not notice other Pashtuns talking to this Afghan-lover of course before shooting off like EDL member. Nationalism has been a part of me since I was born. Za Pashtun yam aw za Pakistani yam. Its not someones fathers job to tell the other who he is. As I said ethnicity is fluid.
> 
> And you seriously need to watch that mouth. Talking of monkeys those devils jump across rooftops in your country and break into your houses. Having been in Lucknow for a while can tell those things are a real menace. May steal your dhoti some day from your house. They get into kitchens anyway. Maybe they stole your food which may be the reason for your belligerence today.
> 
> 
> 
> Watch your ****** mouth, it is as dirty as a gunda nullah of one of the old areas of Delhi where bare-assed children squat and pee. Learn something from people like @KRAIT rather than provoking people by hiding under your elite membership. We Pashtuns don't fear anything and the first one to get slapped would be you when you poke your nose in our affairs. if you think of me as a wannabe there are dozens of others like @AstanoshKhan @Hyperion and @Andromache.
> 
> You should watch whats going on at home:
> 
> A tamil liberation movement:
> Tamil Nadu Liberation Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Alternatively you could think about this too:
> 
> 
> If you don't want a Tamil like this coming and other telling Tamil people what they ought to do and what not then best leave us to deal with our Mir Jaffar's. It is extremely annoying when Indians put their nose in other peoples affairs trying to use an ethnic or sectarian issue for their short-sighted goals. This guy is in all probability a Taliban monkey sitting on the lap of Hakimullah Maseed, you support him and he will bomb Delhi. You can check Hakimullah's address greatly praising Afghan-lovers and Afghanistan for support but oops you don't know Pashto... at least I learned enough of the language to understand that message and am still learning. At least i know every bit of history, geographical location of tribes and the culture. But funny a Tamil from a place a liberation movement is in full swing is talking about a culture he has no idea of.



LOL,Nice try troll,You made up that website really fast.

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## KS

haviZsultan said:


> You did not notice other Pashtuns talking to this Afghan-lover of course before shooting off like EDL member.



Ofcourse I saw..but my post was pointedly at you for a particular reason.




haviZsultan said:


> And you seriously need to watch that mouth. Talking of monkeys those devils jump across rooftops in your country and break into your houses. Having been in Lucknow for a while can tell those things are a real menace. May steal your dhoti some day from your house. They get into kitchens anyway. Maybe they stole your food which may be the reason for your belligerence today.



Wow hold on to your words Mr.My name is Insecurity. I meant Monkey D Luffy.




haviZsultan said:


> You should watch whats going on at home:
> 
> A tamil liberation movement:
> Tamil Nadu Liberation Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Alternatively you could think about this too:
> 
> 
> If you don't want a Tamil like this coming and other telling Tamil people what they ought to do and what not then best leave us to deal with our Mir Jaffar's. It is extremely annoying when Indians put their nose in other peoples affairs trying to use an ethnic or sectarian issue for their short-sighted goals. This guy is in all probability a Taliban monkey sitting on the lap of Hakimullah Maseed, you support him and he will bomb Delhi. You can check Hakimullah's address greatly praising Afghan-lovers and Afghanistan for support but oops you don't know Pashto... at least I learned enough of the language to understand that message and am still learning. At least i know every bit of history, geographical location of tribes and the culture. But funny a Tamil from a place a liberation movement is in full swing is talking about a culture he has no idea of.



Now this gets even more interesting. A mohajir wannabe Pathan teaching a native Tamil about his own land. That sounds just about right. NOT !

Liberation movement in full swing ? Oye bhaiya come out from the fiction world you seem to be onto the real world..



haviZsultan said:


> The thing with Luffy is that his butt eternally is glued to Afghanistan and he has no intention of being removed from it. *On the other hand your bum is glued to India but you are interested in clawing your way to Pakistan even if it means India is divided like pan pizza*. Which is more unfortunate?



Actually when the Luffy guy was saying you were slightly disturbed, I just took it as verbal banter. Now I see what he meant. Me interested in clawing my way into Pakistan ? lol wtf.. For what genius ? For being branded a kaffir and be killed or go boom-boom in a market place. Just look at what you are writing. Would make Tom Clancy go rose on his cheeks for the sheer amount of aggrandizement and rhetoric.



Azazel said:


> LOL,Nice try troll,You made up that website really fast.



This is the problem when you let fiction writers let you give facts.

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## friendly_troll96

@haviZsultan


After reading this comment, I'm sh!t scared for you dude.



> One of my late friend had composed a book on these norms and values related to pashtunz society. the pakhtunz.
> 
> he published his book and died in London after its publication within a month.His name was Ifzal shah from boka swabi


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## notsuperstitious

This thread is totally twilight zone.


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## bronxbull

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> haven't seen him or Ahmad post in a while, not sure where they went?
> 
> as for sitting in indian laps --- the indians themselves would be interested to know what the anti-Pakistan Afghans think.....
> 
> to them, anything non-Afghan or Pakistan-related is "hindu", "black" , "inferior" and "dal-khor"
> 
> i wonder how majority indian would feel about these designations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bad.....and its freezing now so haven't been motivated to look
> 
> plus im getting my arse kicked by student loans repayment.



we know what they really think but we also know what punjabis think of dark coloured sindhis/mohajjirs?

no sweat.



haviZsultan said:


> Secur I just wanted to clarify this point. I think you know my background... if not you can look through my previous posts to find out that I am a wannabe Pashtun gradually adopting the language and culture who has studied them and now knows about their history more than Pashtuns do themselves. I love Pashtuns, want to be like them, true but you don't know the whole story.
> 
> Our grandfather came to Pakistan a little late when most families had already moved. My father was a kid and so were most brothers and everyone else. Our mothers side stayed in Lucknow though-always supported Pakistan even till very late. Only now her brother has turned Indian.
> 
> You would have noticed I say us when I condemn Muhajirs. That is because I am still loyal to the Firangi mahal house and the Ansari family from which I belong. We are a Muhajir family basically with perhaps unproven, limited Pashtun links, though no one really speaks Pashto amongst us and there is no proof of the past family legends-those also very few people know. I insist that instead of becoming a separate community we should have done everything in our power to integrate as Pakistanis and only that and if not that... into the various ethnic groups already present. By not doing so and becoming an ethnic group (God knows how this came to be) we exacerbated ethnic tensions. Later we formed a political party... is it coincidence that crime went up the roof in the late 1980's? An Indian member made a very valid point. How come the communities that migrated to India (Sikhs and Hindus) didn't become Muhajirs? Why did we adopt a term that is basically derogatory for ourselves... and we can't say other ethnic groups don't want to accept us, did we try? Its just an escape.
> 
> And that was how it was supposed to be. Jinnah referred to the refugees as Muhajirs at times but not once did he suggest that it would be permanent setup. It was basically a term used till the Muhajirs settled down and Jinnah has made numerous speeches that he expected they would later merge with the respective communities to make a very homogenous setup (this has happened to an extent for those who moved to places other than Karachi and I have a number of friends like these who do not call themselves Muhajir despite having crossed the border)... Instead we made ourselves into an elite community that wanted all the power... separate from the rest.
> 
> You can look through my older posts and you will find posts about how close our links to Lucknow, Hyderabad and Delhi are... since we moved late. There are also a number of people I know who were killed... some in the aftermath of gujarat riots, (no we didn't move after that-for some reason borders were sealed so we couldn't even more affected relatives or cousins) when the riots spread to Hyderabad. There may even be a video around. Here. Some are very close members of distant family or friends. I spent time with one of the people on the video. BTW I don't know all the people-some are relatives of people I know and the channel ain't mine:
> 
> 
> 
> When you lose someone basically you understand the importance of your country. You also look at the nature of your people. We are diverging. We once only had the word Pakistan zindabad on our lips and where are we now, cursing fellow Pakistanis? I could have hated Hindu's all my life for this but I know many Hindus suffered the same thing and continue to suffer it in Pakistan. The issue is building up a National identity as Jinnah envisioned (for which he made claims like abandon provincialism and the 11 August address) and it cannot be built if we are too divided in the ethnic and religious sense. Being a Pakistani means accepting every religious and ethnic group as our own and in time our ethnic identities were to disappear. We are supposed to be a nation, not a squabbling group of people who hate each other!
> 
> Instead after we moved... we forgot everything. We became racist to other races, we abused them and we looked down upon them. My khandaan members have been involved in some of the worst abuse to Pashtuns, Sindhis, Balochs and Punjabis.
> 
> Personally once we settled we should have helped the ethnic groups... thats what you do when you are in a better position right? Instead I just cannot understand why there is this sense of insecurity and why "hamari pehchaan" has to mean MQM despite its atrocities, its just that we want a Muhajir, a person from our community who we will vote for no matter what his record? Thats how an educated community behaves? Sounds like Jihalat. Furthermore we feel insecure? But why???? We have a gdp per capita according to H&H higher than anyone else (We earn +13,000 rupees more than the ethnic group that comes second according to this report), an HDI much better than anyone else. Take a simple example. Of the directors for radio Pakistan in Karachi 30% have been Muhajir, not a single baloch, 2-3 Pashtuns and Sindhis, rest punjabis. Compared this to the population. We are 8% of the total. We have a disproportionate role and we have built ourselves a tower with the help of Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs put ourselves at the top!
> 
> We take pride in the fact that we made Pakistan (though I hold this is a form of self-gratification and we should say that all ethnic groups made Pakistan and suffered equally for its formation) then why the hell can't we act like it? No one leaves his race, Secur. I saw things with my eyes. I am also a journalist so I get information others don't. I can qoute figures... numbers stats from reports and study's and I know. We are controlling Karachi and mistreating everyone else. Urdu is the national language and it is being imposed on everyone else... even the Punjabis. I saw my family abusing a Sindhi watchman in front of my eyes, at least people have respect not to abuse someone for his race in front of him. We didn't even have that honor? Then we ignore the crimes committed by Altaf. Does anyone ask about the situation in 92 when operation clean-up was launched? Violence was becoming a norm. What else could be done... and immediately the operation became an attack on Urdu-speakers... And guess what. I can post the report... every police officer remotely linked to that operation is linked... even the constables and sergeants under him.
> 
> I have stories upon stories... not from Sindhis or someone else... but fellow Muhajirs who were forced to pay extortion to MQM gangs. And now we want operations everywhere in Waziristan when we cry so much "bias this, discrimination that" about one little operation cleanup. We basically act like hypocrites Secur.
> 
> Now yes, about your statement. Even my Muhajir family/khandaan never ever stated any anti-pakistani feelings and love Pakistan in their own ways-even though some bhoot enters their body to defend Altaf's speech. There is a fool, an ideological cousin of Luffy but he is a wine-snobbing, morally-weak PPP supporter in Canada from the party which has an uneven ratio of producing some of the worst traitors to this country. But the issue is far different than that. Its what we teach our kids, its the conversations that take place in our living rooms and they consist of kicking Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs out. We say no one exept Muhajirs should enter Karachi... we insult people from other ethnic groups in front of them... my cousins and relatives have done it! And its really sad. This wasn't supposed to be how Pakistan was, we were to meld. Become one!
> 
> I rebelled against not only our khandaan, but all of society... I just said, enough! The message I wish to give is that ethnicity is temporary, a fluid concept that does not and should not be used to pitch us against each other. I wish to say... Pakistan comes first, make a statement of ethnic unity. I wish to stand against the discrimination.
> 
> I know my learning Pashtun language, knowing more about Pashtun geography, culture and history more than many people on Pakistani side know themselves will never be appreciated. But people don't understand what I am trying to say. Loving Pashtuns is a part of it, yes... I'd be crazy to be writing about Pashtuns, seeing the bias against them while they kept shouting Long live Pakistan not to love them dearly... but this is about more than that. Its about our unity. Its about Nationalism. Its about making the statement that all cultures in this country are extremely beautiful, that we do not have to hate our own people.
> 
> You will notice that despite adopting Pashtun culture I usually try not to comment on an issue holding too much sentimental value or which can be used by people like Luffy for example Bacha Khan. Basically about the forum I am talking about there were no Tajiks, Uzbeks or Hazaras. It was basically Pashtuns from Afghanistan insulting Pakistan, Punjabis and Pakistani Pashtuns (according to them we were Punjabi slaves) constantly. It was no one else. But people are unwilling to believe fellow Pashtuns can do this... so the conversation here has gone off on Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks being the root of the issue, which in many ways is also true.
> 
> It proves people are a little defensive when it comes to ethnicity and I am trying to say... that is what Altaf Hussain or a leader who does politics on ethnic basis uses to his advantage just in the way Luffy or darkinsky do to create divisions. There is a cousin of ours who simply cannot hear a negative word about India (Lucknow is and should be a part of Pakistan being a heart of Muslim League-so should Hyderabad)... its a weakness. We can't be loyal to other nations just because they have some of our ancestors or people from our ethnic group. Everyone disagrees with him... but in anyway it proves that these ethnic identities can be used against Pakistan's unity.
> 
> What I described happens in my family... I am sure it happens in almost every urdu-speaking family and probably in those of other ethnic groups as a friend of mine beautifully put it when i was thinking of adopting Pashtun culture and ways-I basically learned that there are bigots everywhere finding a whole army of them on the other forum-they abused me so much I felt very unsure about myself-Luffy's best friend, the most racist person on the forum even told me I was a donkey trying to adopt lion's skin (Non-Pashtun trying to be Pashtun.
> 
> Thing is these issues on the basis of ethnicity shouldn't be there people like me and you can stop it. We love our country... and by loving our country it means loving every other ethnic group in it. Its the essence of Pakistan, Secur. We cannot deny it. Its not a country built on a race or ethnic group but a beautiful amalgamation of 200+ languages. Frankly no one can learn the ways of 200+ cultures... but i will of the 4 main in my mission to promote brotherhood. A fractured country cannot function. We cannot allow ourselves to be fractured.
> 
> We can start with our homes secur. I challenge anyone who criticizes another ethnic group. You can do it too... together... we can play a role in the removal of ethnic bigotry from our country. I have nothing against Muhajirs... I just feel being born one I have a right to condemn them and how they behaved. It won't be the same if I do it for another ethnic group though, even my adopted one-because its like after becoming one I am trying to tell people what to do. A good way to describe me is that I don't count Muhajir history (there is nothing such as Muhajir-i still hold btw) after 47 and the history of Afghanistan since 1983 (It was the year when southern regions separated and durand line came into being. Before that we were one nation which is basically the reason for the pain in Sher Malang and Luffy's bum.)
> 
> That is why I don't want @Hyperion and @Andromache to be quiet to Luffy, because only people from the ethnic group they belong to can fight bigots and prove them wrong, though in this case it is my sincere hope that I may be able to convert Luffy though I cannot help but despise what he proposes. Me he will always label a non-pashtun. He did the same with Imran Khan because he happened to live in Mianwali!



you can never be a pashtun regardless of what you do,

A jatt/rajput cease to be one when they drop their talwar.


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## bronxbull

haviZsultan said:


> That gutter from Afghanistan opened again? Don't you remember your people were selling their body parts in the streets of Kabul-women just stood at the corners to sell themselves to anyone who offered it.
> 
> What is your problem what someone else does? People swear when they get angry... she wears a headscarf, she is a noble woman, she struggled for the Orakzai all her life, tried to improve things in Pakistan unlike a keyboard warrior like you but her issue becomes her Pakistani patriotism and truth is you would kill all these people for Afghanistan. A friend of yours on that forum made the same comment anyway. You called Abdul Qayyum Khan a non-pashtun, you called Imran Khan a non-pashtun and lalak jan a Kashmiri without researching his ethnic origin. Anyone who does not agree has to be degraded.
> 
> Anyone with honor would swear when his/her country is insulted.Very much like your eternally hurting butt being set on fire and brain exploding the moment you hear negativity about Afghanistan though the abuse of Pakistan on the other forum never seems to hurt you one bit.
> 
> Luffy after stupid comments like these I really imagine you as a stone age barbarian living with Hakimullah Maseed in a little shack. Sta sa kor shta? haan, bacha? Ta Refugee de?
> 
> 
> 
> Since 1983... when we Pakistani Pashtuns/lar Pashtuns had the luck of escaping your evil clutches you have successively sold yourselves. First you sold us and ignored our 30+ rebellions against British rule calling us dal-khor and british agents. Your foreign policy was completely controlled by the British I might add. Then a few years later the Russians came and owned you. Without the help of Pakistan/lar Pashtuns your women wouldn't be swearing (which is a non-issue)... no... they would be dancing in Russian clubs... I don't need to say more. Now the same thing is happening with the Americans.
> 
> Luffy, knowing me... you wouldn't have dared to make this comment. But your purpose in life has become to provoke me somehow. I am writing about Waziristan... I won't let anyone insult them, I have seen the issues, talked to people and have defended the people of Waziristan once before. Stop trying to pitch our countrymen against each other, stop trying to utilize our issues to create divisions. You don't even have a news agencies in Afghanistan. Daily 3-4 people die on average due to the ethnic and gang war in Afghanistan and it goes unreported.
> 
> People who lack knowledge talk about nuking Waziristan for the actions of a few miscreants. An old friend from Afghanistan (A tajik) stated that she wants to bomb all of Afghanistan... kill each one of them. She was angry with her fellow people for being primitive to the point of no return and supportive of militancy and Taliban-inspired ways... which I also see in you. You are the property of a farsiwan... bombed in a US airstrike which never seems to give a damn whether its killing civilians or militants. If a farsiwan pushes you around in a wheelchair all day long then its not our fault.
> 
> Go do bachaybazi. We Pashtuns here don't have it. Its a national feature of your land. You should worry about the suggestions Farsiwan's give. If you don't believe check what they say on youtube. Not a single Punjabi or anyone else will be swearing at Pashtuns. In fact it will only be Afghans (Nation) and their pathetic backers. You are a disgrace.




why do u keep saying we,pashtuns?

u openly said u r a mohajjir.

when people like abu zulfiquar say it,it makes sense.

But a mohajjir doing it? Hahahahaha.



haviZsultan said:


> You did not notice other Pashtuns talking to this Afghan-lover of course before shooting off like EDL member. Nationalism has been a part of me since I was born. Za Pashtun yam aw za Pakistani yam. Its not someones fathers job to tell the other who he is. As I said ethnicity is fluid.
> 
> And you seriously need to watch that mouth. Talking of monkeys those devils jump across rooftops in your country and break into your houses. Having been in Lucknow for a while can tell those things are a real menace. May steal your dhoti some day from your house. They get into kitchens anyway. Maybe they stole your food which may be the reason for your belligerence today.
> 
> 
> 
> Watch your ****** mouth, it is as dirty as a gunda nullah of one of the old areas of Delhi where bare-assed children squat and pee. Learn something from people like @KRAIT rather than provoking people by hiding under your elite membership. We Pashtuns don't fear anything and the first one to get slapped would be you when you poke your nose in our affairs. if you think of me as a wannabe there are dozens of others like @AstanoshKhan @Hyperion and @Andromache.
> 
> You should watch whats going on at home:
> 
> A tamil liberation movement:
> Tamil Nadu Liberation Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Alternatively you could think about this too:
> 
> 
> If you don't want a Tamil like this coming and other telling Tamil people what they ought to do and what not then best leave us to deal with our Mir Jaffar's. It is extremely annoying when Indians put their nose in other peoples affairs trying to use an ethnic or sectarian issue for their short-sighted goals. This guy is in all probability a Taliban monkey sitting on the lap of Hakimullah Maseed, you support him and he will bomb Delhi. You can check Hakimullah's address greatly praising Afghan-lovers and Afghanistan for support but oops you don't know Pashto... at least I learned enough of the language to understand that message and am still learning. At least i know every bit of history, geographical location of tribes and the culture. But funny a Tamil from a place a liberation movement is in full swing is talking about a culture he has no idea of.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you research what happened to every Muhajir who came to Pakhtunkhwa after partition? They started calling himself a Pashtun rather than Muhajir, learned the tongue and settled, now people can't even tell which is which. I know people like these especially in the Punjab. Now use your brain before shooting off. You know nothing about our politics and geography but you act like a drunk, scandalous wench at a bar or club eager to talk to or dance with every guy just so he may take you home and bang you...
> 
> The thing with Luffy is that his butt eternally is glued to Afghanistan and he has no intention of being removed from it. On the other hand your bum is glued to India but you are interested in clawing your way to Pakistan even if it means India is divided like pan pizza. Which is more unfortunate?
> 
> Muhajir is supposed to be a temporary term given to migrants. it is far different for us to call ourselves Lucknowites... its a simple regional identity and can barely be used to give birth to an ethnic divide. As I have stated before I am proud of the Lucknowi background and my links to our ancestral house. I believe it hurts you that we (some members of family) are still in Lucknow while their hearts are in Pakistan.
> 
> I could give you a link to Jinnah's speech that hinted at how temporary this term was meant to be but I believe you are not here for the purpose of learning about the issue. Your purpose I'm afraid is to kiss Luffy on the cheek or acting like a typical bacteria share some sort of symbiotic relationship with him... but Luffy being a coward ran off because of the vociferous opposition he faced here.



Dude,

u r better trying to pass off as a pushtoon,i also know many muslims from UP and some of them do look pashtun but please dont talk about tamil liberation army and all.

We are not seeing any gun battle or bombs getting blasted in TN.


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## haviZsultan

Sher Malang can be seen lurking here once again... emboldened by dozen or so Indian trolls.

By we I mean the Firangi Mahal house... and our family. Or I mean Pashtun or Pakistanis. Your loyalty does not dissipate to your family if it does to Muhajirs... lol.


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## Secur

haviZsultan said:


> One reason I like debating with you is because I have become sure that I will get a reply... despite my sorry and insane-fully long posts. I have to wonder how you find the energy. Me, I do because I am a book writer and author of 40+ articles, so writing is a passion.
> 
> Personally I am undeserving of things such as respect. My purpose is to make a difference in this country and to help improve it. It is not our Nationalist way. I am glad there are people who understand these things. I just come here sometimes, then disappear on a project but personally I'd like to see u @Secur on the think tank. Though I must admit I would also like to be there as it may improve my position when I seek a publisher.
> 
> Learning another language is the hardest part. You see where I studied... I failed to learn both French or Arabic.
> But when you love your country and understand its essence-loving all its people then basically it becomes much easier which it has. Still have trouble with the "has" and masculine feminine. Pashto has de (male for has) and da (female for has) and dee for plural. Urdu just has "hai."
> 
> Initially it was love for Pashtuns that led me to this and the bias I saw towards them... there is a lot in Karachi. Later when people were bashing me on the other forum and I was unsure of myself... I mean it was true what they were saying... I am a wannabe Pashtun... I thought it was more than about my love for Pashtuns. It was more about making a solid statement of ethnic unity. It would also give a strong statement to my family that we could integrate if we wanted and also against the MQM which wants to pitch Muhajirs against Pashtuns.
> 
> This ethnic unity has become my main purpose. I saw in Canada how we began fighting over it while Indians laughed at us.
> 
> 
> It is good to know about your background. I agree. Brings me to the Biharis as well whose cause I have always supported. Very sad how we abandoned thousands upon thousands of our supporters there. A number of my uncles moved to East Pakistan after partition. Were very rich once. Now moved to what was left of Pakistan.
> 
> But people who work in the field become hopeless. I have also been a leader of a Nationalist organization in the past, its canada chapter. Frankly I have been struggling for my country for years but the issue I have noticed is we are too divided to basically even think of promoting Pakistan's interests. When we do the Indians and others don't let us. The Indians have a very strong lobby in the US.
> 
> In my family there have been inter-marriages between us and Punjabi families even amongst a chacha. But I don't see the ideas disappearing. My chacha remains a staunch MQM supporter. But I guess the changes are coming about. What I see however are reactionaries being born and that worries me... these guys are basically fed on the childhood nonsense of non-existant oppression. It doesn't just apply here. For example Abdul Nishapuri. If we say its not a shia genocide they will say you are sympathizing with our killers.
> 
> If 5-10 people die in Karachi daily it has the potential to polarize society ethnically as terrorism has often done... people begin thinking of themselves as separate ethnic or religious groups. Its the fracturing power of these people I am worried about which makes me counter bigots and challenge them.
> 
> I see the same dream as you though I must admit I do not share the optimism. Perhaps an effect of working in the field. Many people know me on account of my social work and Nationalism. Basically people like us get disillusioned after working hard and not seeing a change.  I have also been raised outside Pakistan. I want Pakistan to be prosperous tolerant and united. You see other countries doing well... no one dying daily... wish as hell we could be like that.
> 
> Currently I don't see any Nationalist party in the political spectrum though. However I deeply wish for this change. Its up to us to bring about this change. It is my life's dream to host the Pakistan Nationalist Party but fortune isn't always kind. But I am greatly inspired by your views to continue my struggle. You can change things @Secur. You have found in me an ardent supporter.
> 
> Yeah... and this is the most important thing. By understanding this we can save our Pakistan. Our country is for everyone... each of our cultures is beautiful... ours is the history of Mir Chakar (Baloch), ours was the empire of Ahmed Shah Durrani (Pashtun) ours were the kingdoms of Talpurs (Sindh), so was that of Malik Bir Khan Ghakar (Punjab)... its for all of us. There was a member here Bilal or something... have no idea where he went... i really liked him for being detached from the ethnic issue.
> 
> I agree. We have ruined everything for ourselves.
> 
> I am inspired. There are twice as many here for every bigot...
> 
> Absolutely correct. There is no, absolutely no reason to define ethnic identity with another country. Plus its illogical. I proved it to him. 70-80% of all Pashtuns are in Pakistan, Afghanistan speaks Farsi and even most of the Pashtuns there Dari not Pashto, the other races dominate everything from transport to the military (see most of the ministers of the cabinet in Afghanistan and commander of the ANA), Pashtuns have become a slave race in that nation, the heart of Pashtun culture is Peshawar with a music, movie and entertainment industry with many events held for the promotion of Pashtun culture.
> 
> I think people who have to define their nationalism with Afghanistan are seriously the most dumb people to walk the planet. They are unfortunate not to see the deep bond between the people in Pakistan.
> 
> True...
> 
> You should be in the think tank secur.
> Our views are largely in agreement.



Of course you will get a reply to such a detailed and insightful post , mate ... I am quite sure that a book writer cant write small one or two paragraphs on such a big and sensitive topic ... I think the reason that most people ( as you said in other post ) ignore your post is because not everybody has the patience and interest to read a lengthy discussion but there isn't a workaround from that because of the vastness of the topics we usually discuss ... Otherwise , we wont be able to do justice to the topic ...

Yes , mate ... There are always people who understand you , we just dont know they exist ... Respect is earned by doing good for the country , even though a nationalist should continue his work regardless of the attention he gets ... What projects except your novel " Badal " are you working on at the moment ? I would like to hear about them ... I would like to see you as " Jr " or a " Senior " Think tank because of your deep knowledge on the topic of War on Terror , Afghanistan and Pashtun tribes ... 

Yes it is , that is why people learn new languages at a very early age ... You see how hard it gets afterwards as you age ?  Can you speak Pashto fluently ? I am sure you understand it fully like any other Pashtun ... Yes , I will admit , there is a lot of bias against Pashtuns in Karachi ... People blame them for terrorism and instability in the country when it was the Zia-ul-Haq who started that mess in the first place , they had no chose but to follow his agenda once it was imposed on the people by the dictator , the Pakistanis had to fight a US war and get sanctions as a reward ... Yes , A wannabe Pashtun but with distant or remote family links with that race , right ? I told you before you have done , what I want everyone to do ... Appreciate and learn about other cultures and even adopt it ... Well , its not just the MQM , its about every single political party in Pakistan trying to pitch one person against other to get into the Govt and prolong their rule ... Such has been the sad affairs of the state after its founder died so early ... 

Yeah , the diversity ensures that I cant associate myself with any race but only with the country I was born in ... Well , the cause of the deeply patriotic " stranded Pakistanis " in Bangladesh is a tragic one , those people still haven't forgotten their true country even when several generation have passed , they still hoist the flag of my country in their camps and yet the Govt isn't willing to accommodate such a relatively small number of patriots in the country ... I mean we can host over 2,700,000+ Afghans who have nothing to do with us , who are involved in drug trafficking , illegal arms selling and all other heinous crimes and despite our hospitality , will leave no chance to bad mouth Pakistan but we cant accept ~300,000 Biharis who fought with/for Pakistan Army ... You see such sort of things fuel ethnic problems - again the negligence of the corrupt Govts ...

Well I do not know about you , but I see more hope for this country than ever before for some reason ... I believe that a change is coming , revolution is near ... Do not give up , the silent majority rarely care about ethnic and religious issues , they are more interested in their daily lives and upward social mobility ... We look divided because of the silence of the people who need to stand and speak up ! 

Inter-marriages are a norm in my family too , I personally believe that its the solution for the ethnic problems that the country faces at the moment ... Inter-breed so that you can increase your genetic pool , mix so the ethnic identities disappear ... Yeah , the non-existent oppression that has continued from the day the MQM came into being and people suddenly realized that they were being treated unjustly and not given due representation which are a bunch of ugly lies considering the facts ... 

I agree , the law and order situation in the country and particularly Karachi is not helping things ... What people dont recognize that they are being killed regardless of their race or religion , the killers are just murdering left and right to spread terror and cause chaos ... Well , I am a little bit over enthusiastic about these things , I have always thought from childhood that somehow " God helps this country otherwise there were plenty of disastrous times in our history but somehow " He accepts our undertakings and is in favor of the Pakistan's cause ... I am not a religious person though  We will improve quite soon , prosperity will return and law and order situation will improve , just let this war against extremist end ... Yes , there's no nationalist party but there's hope and the silent majority which stands with us for this cause ... Cheer up ! 

Yes , we are very diverse , an amalgamation of literally dozens of cultures ... Not to mention the geography and climate of our country - only a few nations are lucky to have this ... By understanding different cultures , we can return on the right path , stop this ethnic bull **** and work for the better future of the country ... 

Yes , but see this too ... We aren't afraid of self-criticism , ready to rectify our mistakes and mend our ways , basically we understand " In understanding lies the recovery " ... I see this as a quality ...

Everybody needs to get it in the head that we are Pakistanis , not Sindhi , Punjabi , Baluch , Pashtun or Urdu Speaker etc ... If the Indian Muslims are loyal to their country , why cant we be ? If Sikhs and Hindus migrated to India and aren't called immigrants now then why do we take this discriminatory word as an identity for us ? How exactly is it that even after having the largest Pashtun population , some people think " Afghanistan " as some promised land for them ? This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard ... That country is being controlled by other groups yet the Afghan lovers are busy supporting the stupid idea that somehow their destiny is linked with that hell hole country , I ask how and why ? ... Pashtuns are integrated just like everybody else in the society , in almost every field and Govt and they have due representation ... How people like to portray them as being neglected and dominated by other races in Pakistan when such is the case in Afghanistan ?  ANA and NA are primarily dominated by all others except Pashtun , the same is the case with Afghan people but yet some are delusioned ...

Nah mate , I do not think I yet deserve that high honor , bro ...

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

@haviZsultan You are getting on people's nerves here, they dont like your contineous whining and bytching. You were right when you said that people are ignoring your posts, even andromach, hyperion, astonish khan, abu zulfiqar and taimi khan are not responding to your posts even though you are constantly tagging/mentioning then in every post in hope of getting support against me. They surely support your pro-pakistani views but they dont like you dragging them into every pashtun-centric discussion. You are thrilled and excited as wannabe pashtun thats why word pashtun is so much on your tongue, but for these desified pathans, too much pashtun-centric talk is nauseating. Give them some break.
Go finish your book first , publish it , then call yourself an author. And you are head of which party in canada exactly? Share us the link to its website. You know what ,you are displaying signs of mania and schizophrenia.

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## haviZsultan

@Secur I will give a short reply to your post soon. 



KS said:


> Ofcourse I saw..but my post was pointedly at you for a particular reason.
> 
> Wow hold on to your words Mr.My name is Insecurity. I meant Monkey D Luffy.



Listen up, if you don't have a brain to realize it. You are a pathetic troll on this forum and your presence I have been noting is simply an annoyance, nothing more and nothing less which is why you feel compelled to do things... as if there is a thorium from mass effect stuck in your mind. 



> Now this gets even more interesting. A mohajir wannabe Pathan teaching a native Tamil about his own land. That sounds just about right. NOT !



Lolz. If you knew what irony is. Okay fine I am a wannabe Muhajir. Lets say there is no proof of the 15% blood, the links to a Pashtun princess or the links to Pir Roshan etc etc. And our family always considered itself Muhajir since it moved. But the thing is its in the same country as Pashtuns, in fact sharing a city with them where ethnic tensions have exploded because of rich migrants like them who want it all for themselves.. 

Tamils are south Indians. When we go to a restaurant and someone offers and says why don't we go to a South Indian, marathi, mallu restaurant... we always say no. Your food only you can eat, unfortunately. There is a great difference in culture between south and north india and only a fool would be incapable of noticing this. Pashtuns however are on the edge of India right on the border of Afghanistan (I doubt a person with a low IQ like you knows this but is getting butt-hurt for poor innocent Afghan-lover Luffy) Okay? Now consider this... a person from UP may still share some common characteristics with a Pashtun but one from Tamil Nadu who does not even share the religion, the basic traits? lol. At least I am in the same nation as Pashtuns and 2-4 million, perhaps more are in my city. You on the other hand have probably never seen one... because if you spewed this rubbish which is your hallmark as you do on this site it would take barely a moment for you to be beaten up, or perhaps shot. 

Use your brain and apply that logic on yourself before being a self-righteous monkey and preaching to the world. A dark tamil with an ugly mustache like a hero from a third grade tamil film is basically telling comparatively fair-skinned Pashtuns with beards and fierce features and Lucknowites who know nothing about that rice on a leaf and that horrid smelling fish, Sapaddu and eating from a thali and avoid your restaurants as if they are the burning mouth of the devil. 

Which is worse? @KS you have no clue about the ethnic situation here. I am sure I do not about the ethnic situation in regions other than Lucknow, barey gaon (our ancestral village), Hyderabad and Delhi, perhaps a little about Bihar. 



> Liberation movement in full swing ? Oye bhaiya come out from the fiction world you seem to be onto the real world..



Lol. Listen closely. There is a woman called Sana. I knew her though to be truthful I knew her family better. She was from Azampura in Hyderabad, some from there don't know the area... but probably know old malakpat. When the Gujarat riots occurred they quickly spread you other cities. Hyderabad has a population of 40% Muslim and 60% Hindu. Riots were bound to occur. One day apparently your little thugs decided to go crazy. They entered Sana's house, raped her, tortured her and upon resistance from the family killed them. She was a student at Osmania college. They believe an RSS affiliated student in college may have been involved in the killing. 

Now lets forget this. Its just another crime though one has to wonder how come 80-90% of the victims were Muslims in the Gujrat riots, why the figures from only Gujarat were taken into account and why there was a huge difference in accounts of government and human rights groups as to the numbers. 

Do you know what happens when our people went to file a police report. Your police refused to write a report... not just that. A number of relatives were jailed and threatened of dire consequences if they spoke about it to anyone... now you will have lots of wet farts about why they did not go to the courts. Lol. Guess what esteemed judges tell Muslims in India. "Why don't you go to Pakistan"... of course not surprising when 10, 20 muslims were burned alive in front of the courts during the riots. All your newspapers mentioned for Hyderabad was a few people hurt which was also true but not the whole truth. 

I have worked with a human rights group known as the sufferers witness. They have many cases like these and move affected families from Indian Kashmir and on occasions other parts too. They are affiliated with our various Nationalist movements. People I know have lived in Afzalganj historically... though your RSS champions have stolen land belonging to us for generations, court cases for which are still pending in your courts for 60+ years. 

Now this is not fiction and is the real face of your country! This is what we guys escaped when we escaped India. lol. Now look at your ****** rubbish everywhere when someone is basically rebelling against your dog Altaf because he sides with you on partition and wants to sell us to India.  

This is a very debauched act from you. After all this you are trying to challenge our efforts for ethnic harmony? I am not surprised you are supporting Luffy and his divisive mindset. I am sure if someone cuts up his stomach they will find a godamn gold mine down there, with coins of Indian origin of course... 

Now considering this very personal experience I really doubt news services will report of what the 5-6 liberation movements in Tamil Nadu are actually doing. Wonder how many things are hidden by your government. 

Fun now how sons of the same RSS thugs want us to maintain an ethnic and sectarian division in our blessed land.  Our independence will always hurt them. 

People integrate into the local fabric... it was supposed to be that way. You don't know history. I will do everything in my power to ensure there is nothing such as a "Muhajir" in Pakistan ever again, it was never meant to be anything. Fun how the term is now being used as a tool for our enemies. Actually recently one of you claimed it is a derogatory term to them, to oppressed Muhajirs who somehow happen to be the richest community in Pakistan. lol. When they are trying to integrate and merge into the local communities Indians like you are showing their hypocritical faces. 

God knows what our forefathers actually thought when they failed to integrate. There is nothing such as Muhajir. This is a reply for you and if it burns your bum you can sit inside a bucket of water. 



> Actually when the Luffy guy was saying you were slightly disturbed, I just took it as verbal banter. Now I see what he meant. Me interested in clawing my way into Pakistan ? lol wtf.. For what genius ? For being branded a kaffir and be killed or go boom-boom in a market place. Just look at what you are writing. Would make Tom Clancy go rose on his cheeks for the sheer amount of aggrandizement and rhetoric.



I admit, I am disturbed, I am a donkey trying to adopt another skin, I am downright mad, but I will eliminate the ethnic and sectarian issues that divide us. Muhajir is simply a fake identity. Its not your fathers responsibility to ensure we maintain it. This is in fact a case of butt in India and head and arms stretching to Pakistan. 

Situations in places change constantly and ethnicity is fluid-I would tell you about our family background if you had the brain to listen and you would find out some of our ancestors were Arab, some Tajik and one possibly Pashtun. I think its time to watch out for yourself. We have more news channels than entertainment channels. In India its the other way around since only what the government wants is reported. That Tamil Nadu Liberation Army may get you very soon. I bet they keep a tab on Indians like you... maybe they are outside your home.



> This is the problem when you let fiction writers let you give facts.



When your country is broken from within don't cry to us... Btw if i begin to talk about our family, relatives and contacts left in Lucknow, Hyderabad and Delhi it will hurt your *** more than it hurts it when I call myself Pashtun? You can check my old posts before I had seen Altaf's stupid speech and I was much more committed to those in the past. It is also the reason I support the Bihari cause. 

Obviously... kids will learn things from your family members and relatives. So basically despite our sacrifices for Pakistan unfortunately we were taught rubbish and muhajir chauvinism which I have the courage to reject now. 

Pwe shwi? I guess not unless I speak mallu language. Urrvvrrr... hrrvveerrr.... sorry I am not a wolf, I mean Tamil so I cannot speak your tongue. We Pashtuns produced poets like Ghani Khan, Hamza Shinwari, Rehman Baba and Khushal Khan Khattak so our soft tongue does not match your horrid one. 

And here are some links. Denying a reality doesn't make it disappear. Its not like farting. You fart and its no more in your stomach. 

Why Freedom (Independence) for Tamil Nadu from Indian Rule?

Tamil Nadu Liberation Army (TNLA)

Is Tamil Nadu independence possible?

Denying something doesn't make it disappear. My initial articles as a journalist were all for muslims in India and defensive towards Pakistan... but a journalist cannot ignore local issues. Your country may not survive if you ignore its issues. Worse... if u don't look at them you might end up a victim of Tamil Nadu Liberation Army. Try and make friends rather than enemies. I know you have become used to paying bribes in Tamil Nadu being morally corrupt but unfortunately your elite membership isn't going to last long if you maintain your belligerent attitude. Learn from what happened to @RazPaK..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

bronxbull said:


> we know what they really think but we also know what punjabis think of dark coloured sindhis/mohajjirs?
> 
> no sweat.
> 
> 
> 
> you can never be a pashtun regardless of what you do,
> 
> A jatt/rajput cease to be one when they drop their talwar.




Aho no sweat. Not as bad as north vs south I east vs West Indian


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## haviZsultan

Secur said:


> Of course you will get a reply to such a detailed and insightful post , mate ... I am quite sure that a book writer cant write small one or two paragraphs on such a big and sensitive topic ... I think the reason that most people ( as you said in other post ) ignore your post is because not everybody has the patience and interest to read a lengthy discussion but there isn't a workaround from that because of the vastness of the topics we usually discuss ... Otherwise , we wont be able to do justice to the topic ...
> 
> Yes , mate ... There are always people who understand you , we just dont know they exist ... Respect is earned by doing good for the country , even though a nationalist should continue his work regardless of the attention he gets ... What projects except your novel " Badal " are you working on at the moment ? I would like to hear about them ... I would like to see you as " Jr " or a " Senior " Think tank because of your deep knowledge on the topic of War on Terror , Afghanistan and Pashtun tribes ...



Personally to be truthful... I am looking for a publisher for my book since the one I am signed up with doesn't seem to strong-especially in the fiction field. So basically I want to give him an impressive record of my expertise. Think tank on a forum with millions of hits can help I guess. 

Recently I jokingly told @Hyperion he make a request to promote me jr think thank or give me an interview... I hoped I'd actually get an interview though... just to confirm some things about Waziristan for my book but he shut me up pretty quick. :p

But despite wanting to be a think tank I don't want it to be unfair. lol. There are many posters like you @Hyperion and @Andromache who have many more posts and are more of a regular presence rather than one that is unreliable and suddenly disappears for a while to come back again. (Talking about myself)... 

I will make the suggestion for you to be promoted to think tank. Also for a new role for @Armstrong-he is really good at relieving tension and ending heated arguments though he also specializes in derailing threads and spamming. No offense.  



> Yes it is , that is why people learn new languages at a very early age ... You see how hard it gets afterwards as you age ? Can you speak Pashto fluently ? I am sure you understand it fully like any other Pashtun ... Yes , I will admit , there is a lot of bias against Pashtuns in Karachi ... People blame them for terrorism and instability in the country when it was the Zia-ul-Haq who started that mess in the first place , they had no chose but to follow his agenda once it was imposed on the people by the dictator , the Pakistanis had to fight a US war and get sanctions as a reward ... Yes , A wannabe Pashtun but with distant or remote family links with that race , right ? I told you before you have done , what I want everyone to do ... Appreciate and learn about other cultures and even adopt it ... Well , its not just the MQM , its about every single political party in Pakistan trying to pitch one person against other to get into the Govt and prolong their rule ... Such has been the sad affairs of the state after its founder died so early ...



Every party has done the same... but Secur let me clarify why I specifically feel inclined to pick on the MQM. My family didn't just move across the border. It strongly identifies itself as Muhajir and are voters of the MQM, this support for them is all around me like a cacophony of maddening shrieks, i cannot escape it even by becoming a Pashtun. Basically ever since I got involved in politics I have been aware and been told that I am a Muhajir. 

The changes you see are fairly recent. Now basically when someone is born in a community and sees its issues... he criticizes it right? I feel I have a right to criticize how we behaved and the formation of the MQM. This basically sets peoples hair on fire. 

When I debate with MQM people I get called names like Pathan ki awlaad and other things. It was exact opposite with the Pashtuns (from Afghanistan and their backers) on that site but admin kicked me out. 

Also I deeply thank you. Very few people come to accept what I have done, look at it positively without a trace of suspicion-especially since I feel loyal to the firangi mahal and ansari clan (our family) despite the change-how can i not be? Lucknow was the heartland of the muslim league and home of the lucknow pact. Bigots from both races have basically told me I don't belong in either. 

Yes you are right. The issue is our heritage is unproven. Some relatives cite the anecdote of a Pashtun princess marrying one of our ancestors... but then how much of Pashtun blood do I have? Any way to gauge it? Another thing is it is unproven though I have believed this to be manifest truth for a while ... though talked about by some senior members in the khandaan, most, particularly MQM chauvinists deny it. Yes, thanks to a very good instructor I can understand Pashto but still when I speak people generally can tell I am not one of birth or learned the language... also make errors sometimes which pashto speakers may note. I know the vocabulary and most verbs but still have to learn how to apply them when its a he, she, it, I or you... lots of stuff. But my instructor is working on vocabulary which has greatly improved my ability to understand it. 

Also you said the issue is not just an MQM issue... its a wider issue of race based politics. I wish to criticize this more openly... but the thing is (you would have noticed I don't criticize ANP heavily though I see it negatively) if I start criticizing Bacha Khan and ANP after I adopt Pashtun race its like I am joining and then I am telling Pashtuns what to do... only place I fight is when someone calls for the break up of my country or openly abuses other ethnic groups. I am especially concerned since the way people like Luffy and another member toramana react. They were racists but thing is they are right... they said I am a donkey trying to adopt lions skin but basically its very true. 

Thing is I was nationalist long before anything else. I stop them when they abuse my country and reply back which they don't like at all. Still I try to avoid sharing my views on topics of sentimental value like ANP or Bacha Khan... but someone will talk about breaking my country i won't stop. 



> Yeah , the diversity ensures that I cant associate myself with any race but only with the country I was born in ... Well , the cause of the deeply patriotic " stranded Pakistanis " in Bangladesh is a tragic one , those people still haven't forgotten their true country even when several generation have passed , they still hoist the flag of my country in their camps and yet the Govt isn't willing to accommodate such a relatively small number of patriots in the country ... I mean we can host over 2,700,000+ Afghans who have nothing to do with us , who are involved in drug trafficking , illegal arms selling and all other heinous crimes and despite our hospitality , will leave no chance to bad mouth Pakistan but we cant accept ~300,000 Biharis who fought with/for Pakistan Army ... You see such sort of things fuel ethnic problems - again the negligence of the corrupt Govts ...



I agree... though I also believe those Afghan refugees should be given a chance to integrate by being given a chance to gain citizenship, particularly the affluent classes. That would piss off the keyboard warriors and Afghan-lover Pakistan bashers from the neighboring country-internet basically only comes in a few cities. 5% of the population has access only.) I guess I have a feeling for refugees regardless of their background and being callous towards them by calling Luffy or Sher Malang one. 

As I said we moved late and Ayub closed the borders for some reason before all families had moved. Then there was some trouble in India with our relatives (distant) and people we knew in Hyderabad (our ancestral home is lucknow though but basically we were spread out)... some people lost family members there and stuff and we had lots of trouble trying to shift some relatives to Pakistan, my mother stayed in Lucknow and married from there, then became a Pakistani citizen. Guards at FIA office were abusive, insulted them and did everything to make them feel unwelcome. Why would they come to Pakistan and want to get citizenship if they loved India? But we don't have a brain in this regard. Look at the west. Importing professionals from Pakistan while manufacturing a brain drain in our land. We are turning educated people away instead. People may disagree b8 i support this still... 

That played a part in my nationalism... I get affected by things and then go mad... have to take action. 
You can read up my old posts if you find some. I became extremely active with the Sufferers Witness at that time around 2-3 years ago (charity group, does lots of work on woman's rights but lots on helping refugees as well.), was even sympathetic to the MQM though I wouldn't have been if I saw that horrid speech and studied more (didn't have the contacts as a journalist either). Recently Luffy provoked me and I basically insulted my family background, our relatives in Pakistan and "Muhajirs" a lot. @Karachiite without knowing me made a post defending Altaf's speech. lol. But you see where I am coming from @Secur? Any reference of going back and merging with india is like a slap on my face, especially coming from a pakistan-any reference that partition is wrong is a slap to the things i have seen in Sufferers witness and with friends and family that moved from hyderabad. The thing is like this is what people moving across the border suffered, about a million were killed. We moved to make Pakistan and build it, because we believed in Quaid's dream, we wanted Pakistan, ALL of it, not just an enclave for so called "muhajirs". Not to vote for terrorist politicians. 

I blamed the Indians a lot... but whats their fault? Don't we (some fanatics) do the same thing to minorities in Pakistan? And what do we care anyway? People in our khandaan are basically defending the MQM and Altaf's speech despite knowing of the people killed in India. I feel we are deviating from the task at hand. 

Those days of partition must have been so romantic... leaving everything, our houses, our lives, even half our family members with no guarantee of what the future holds... and now when we are here... what do we feel, what do we do for our country? Nothing except bash the original inhabitants? I feel sad and very angry... this shouldn't have happened Secur. We died like pigs in a slaughterhouse down there... we can't become like that, indifferent. No one quits his race unless absolutely frustrated with what he saw. 

When i talk to MQM chauvinists people like @Armstrong say nothing because if they interfere its basically like a non-muhajir speaking about the affairs of one... and then they have a little humility and anyone who talks about ethnic unity would support those guys... they understand the entire issue as well and how quickly things can become an ethnic firefight. But the thing is Secur... lets leave me... i am in many ways raceless, because both Pashtuns and Muhajirs will doubt my intentions the moment i speak about them and that also using the common we i do all the time.  

But I guess the most important thing would be that you and @GIANTsasquatch and others do not stop speaking against the tyranny of the MQM. People from the race know more and can help convince these people and bring them out of it. My parents actually have been away from Pakistan half their life... i was raised in Dubai too most of my life with many years spent in Toronto. Our knowledge basically comes from our larger family/relatives. They support MQM our family will too as they do now. But if knowledgeable people like you and others challenge them then perhaps there is a chance to beat these guys. 



> Well I do not know about you , but I see more hope for this country than ever before for some reason ... I believe that a change is coming , revolution is near ... Do not give up , the silent majority rarely care about ethnic and religious issues , they are more interested in their daily lives and upward social mobility ... We look divided because of the silence of the people who need to stand and speak up !
> 
> Inter-marriages are a norm in my family too , I personally believe that its the solution for the ethnic problems that the country faces at the moment ... Inter-breed so that you can increase your genetic pool , mix so the ethnic identities disappear ... Yeah , the non-existent oppression that has continued from the day the MQM came into being and people suddenly realized that they were being treated unjustly and not given due representation which are a bunch of ugly lies considering the facts ..



I totally agree with the inter-marriage solution which I fully support. We cannot let these parties destroy the intricate beautiful bond between us Pakistanis (the various ethnic groups)... I hope by revolution you mean PTI cauz i'm voting for him...  but am a little cautious after u know so many years of looting... 



> I agree , the law and order situation in the country and particularly Karachi is not helping things ... What people dont recognize that they are being killed regardless of their race or religion , the killers are just murdering left and right to spread terror and cause chaos ... Well , I am a little bit over enthusiastic about these things , I have always thought from childhood that somehow " God helps this country otherwise there were plenty of disastrous times in our history but somehow " He accepts our undertakings and is in favor of the Pakistan's cause ... I am not a religious person though We will improve quite soon , prosperity will return and law and order situation will improve , just let this war against extremist end ... Yes , there's no nationalist party but there's hope and the silent majority which stands with us for this cause ... Cheer up !
> 
> Yes , we are very diverse , an amalgamation of literally dozens of cultures ... Not to mention the geography and climate of our country - only a few nations are lucky to have this ... By understanding different cultures , we can return on the right path , stop this ethnic bull **** and work for the better future of the country ...
> 
> Yes , but see this too ... *We aren't afraid of self-criticism , ready to rectify our mistakes and mend our ways *, basically we understand " In understanding lies the recovery " ... I see this as a quality ...



Yeah. I think this is one of the best things... Pakistanis today are keen to accept their mistakes and rectify them. Personally I would never even have thought 5-10 years ago to gain any support for this idea. I also held and still hold the perhaps irrational fear that the current violence may divide my country further into tiny squabbling groups. 

Basically its hard to be an optimist for me though. You will hear my name in humanitarian groups like TCF, Yaseer trust, Edhi and Ilm o amal other than on the nationalist front. Being a Pakistani today isn't just hard outside your country but in it as well.



> Everybody needs to get it in the head that we are Pakistanis , not Sindhi , Punjabi , Baluch , Pashtun or Urdu Speaker etc ... If the Indian Muslims are loyal to their country , why cant we be ? If Sikhs and Hindus migrated to India and aren't called immigrants now then why do we take this discriminatory word as an identity for us ? How exactly is it that even after having the largest Pashtun population , some people think " Afghanistan " as some promised land for them ? This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard ... That country is being controlled by other groups yet the Afghan lovers are busy supporting the stupid idea that somehow their destiny is linked with that hell hole country , I ask how and why ? ... Pashtuns are integrated just like everybody else in the society , in almost every field and Govt and they have due representation ... How people like to portray them as being neglected and dominated by other races in Pakistan when such is the case in Afghanistan ?  ANA and NA are primarily dominated by all others except Pashtun , the same is the case with Afghan people but yet some are delusioned ...



I agree. Btw I would also like to cast light on something else I could have and indeed have tried to do before. I used to be part of the Pakistan Nationalist Association which is part of a wider Nationalist movement. What we tried to do to end the ethnic issue once and for all was tell our members to basically say I am Pakistani whenever someone asked about their ethnic identity and we were told not to tell our kids our ethnic identity... something if done by 180 million people would have led to ethnicity disappearing completely. But you see the loopholes here were obvious:
1) Anyone can know your ethnicity by finding out the language you speak and the geographic location you inhibit especially if he has enough knowledge.
2) How is it possible? Is it possible to impose on people such an idea and basically shove it in their minds that they do this. my point here is what is going to ensure they won't tell their kids which race they belong to. In other ways, there is no way to IMPLEMENT it.
3) A small movement of 12000 members can only ensure that its laws apply of course to its members. What about the 180 million outside the movement. Luffy would go mad (though he appears to have changed or says so) and @darkinsky would commit suicide when told to give up ethnic identity even though its abusive to them (as I said Muhajir is a very abusive term-it delectably means traveler, is our family one of nomads??? Its an insult to themselves and they didn't try to get rid of it?) 

I guess I don't need to tell you that our policy was the failure of the century which we used to make fun off boisterously including the leader who introduced the idea...  we took steps later on demanding members to learn a number of languages other than their own in order to futilely obfuscate our ethnic identity yet again. (Its all being added in my ethnic paper. Will share it on PDF but may time writing it with the book and research and all) But point 2) remained. We can't stop people from jumping a red signal how are we going to tell them not to tell their kids their ethnicity. Plus what makes us think that ethnicity itself is the problem rather than bigotry or ethnic superciliousness?

Frankly it hasn't worked and we need another solution. I thought it would be a good one to merge into another ethnic group. Pashtuns... i loved them of course but they were also seen by our khandaan as the worst enemies of muhajirs thanks to the MQM (which was another reason I grew attracted to them)... this was and is the best solution, I believe. It also creates a great feeling of goodwill. A Pashtun (forget the douches in the e-world) has shown me nothing but respect upon learning my background. They can tell-I pause when speaking Pashto, struggle with words and it takes time to register what they are saying-so no I am not perfect yet!)

Also don't worry if I am a little defensive about Pashtuns... I have seen a lot of bias here, even in Dubai where I lived a lot of time. I will always be Pakistani first second and last... then a person who loves Pashtuns and calls himself one. 

Am very glad to meet you. You would notice that whenever someone starts insulting a party like MQM it quickly degenerates into a race war. Even when I criticize Muhajir behavior it happens sometimes since I easily pass for a Pashtun on this site and people don't know the background... then it quickly becomes a pillow fight. People defend their ethnicity and attack the other. It shows they are not disengaged from ethnicity as they are supposed to be. But I believe you are and this would make you a great think-tank. I easily get riled too and you are an easy going person. 



> Nah mate , I do not think I yet deserve that high honor , bro ...



You do. I will talk about it to Webbie or give a suggestion. Sorry for that huge reply bro... i noticed that i failed to reply to some of your posts which were of extremely high quality. So I felt i should reply.

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## bronxbull

haviZsultan said:


> @Secur I will give a short reply to your post soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Listen up, if you don't have a brain to realize it. You are a pathetic troll on this forum and your presence I have been noting is simply an annoyance, nothing more and nothing less which is why you feel compelled to do things... as if there is a thorium from mass effect stuck in your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Lolz. If you knew what irony is. Okay fine I am a wannabe Muhajir. Lets say there is no proof of the 15% blood, the links to a Pashtun princess or the links to Pir Roshan etc etc. And our family always considered itself Muhajir since it moved. But the thing is its in the same country as Pashtuns, in fact sharing a city with them where ethnic tensions have exploded because of rich migrants like them who want it all for themselves..
> 
> Tamils are south Indians. When we go to a restaurant and someone offers and says why don't we go to a South Indian, marathi, mallu restaurant... we always say no. Your food only you can eat, unfortunately. There is a great difference in culture between south and north india and only a fool would be incapable of noticing this. Pashtuns however are on the edge of India right on the border of Afghanistan (I doubt a person with a low IQ like you knows this but is getting butt-hurt for poor innocent Afghan-lover Luffy) Okay? Now consider this... a person from UP may still share some common characteristics with a Pashtun but one from Tamil Nadu who does not even share the religion, the basic traits? lol. At least I am in the same nation as Pashtuns and 2-4 million, perhaps more are in my city. You on the other hand have probably never seen one... because if you spewed this rubbish which is your hallmark as you do on this site it would take barely a moment for you to be beaten up, or perhaps shot.
> 
> Use your brain and apply that logic on yourself before being a self-righteous monkey and preaching to the world. A dark tamil with an ugly mustache like a hero from a third grade tamil film is basically telling comparatively fair-skinned Pashtuns with beards and fierce features and Lucknowites who know nothing about that rice on a leaf and that horrid smelling fish, Sapaddu and eating from a thali and avoid your restaurants as if they are the burning mouth of the devil.
> 
> Which is worse? @KS you have no clue about the ethnic situation here. I am sure I do not about the ethnic situation in regions other than Lucknow, barey gaon (our ancestral village), Hyderabad and Delhi, perhaps a little about Bihar.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol. Listen closely. There is a woman called Sana. I knew her though to be truthful I knew her family better. She was from Azampura in Hyderabad, some from there don't know the area... but probably know old malakpat. When the Gujarat riots occurred they quickly spread you other cities. Hyderabad has a population of 40% Muslim and 60% Hindu. Riots were bound to occur. One day apparently your little thugs decided to go crazy. They entered Sana's house, raped her, tortured her and upon resistance from the family killed them. She was a student at Osmania college. They believe an RSS affiliated student in college may have been involved in the killing.
> 
> Now lets forget this. Its just another crime though one has to wonder how come 80-90% of the victims were Muslims in the Gujrat riots, why the figures from only Gujarat were taken into account and why there was a huge difference in accounts of government and human rights groups as to the numbers.
> 
> Do you know what happens when our people went to file a police report. Your police refused to write a report... not just that. A number of relatives were jailed and threatened of dire consequences if they spoke about it to anyone... now you will have lots of wet farts about why they did not go to the courts. Lol. Guess what esteemed judges tell Muslims in India. "Why don't you go to Pakistan"... of course not surprising when 10, 20 muslims were burned alive in front of the courts during the riots. All your newspapers mentioned for Hyderabad was a few people hurt which was also true but not the whole truth.
> 
> I have worked with a human rights group known as the sufferers witness. They have many cases like these and move affected families from Indian Kashmir and on occasions other parts too. They are affiliated with our various Nationalist movements. People I know have lived in Afzalganj historically... though your RSS champions have stolen land belonging to us for generations, court cases for which are still pending in your courts for 60+ years.
> 
> Now this is not fiction and is the real face of your country! This is what we guys escaped when we escaped India. lol. Now look at your ****** rubbish everywhere when someone is basically rebelling against your dog Altaf because he sides with you on partition and wants to sell us to India.
> 
> This is a very debauched act from you. After all this you are trying to challenge our efforts for ethnic harmony? I am not surprised you are supporting Luffy and his divisive mindset. I am sure if someone cuts up his stomach they will find a godamn gold mine down there, with coins of Indian origin of course...
> 
> Now considering this very personal experience I really doubt news services will report of what the 5-6 liberation movements in Tamil Nadu are actually doing. Wonder how many things are hidden by your government.
> 
> Fun now how sons of the same RSS thugs want us to maintain an ethnic and sectarian division in our blessed land.  Our independence will always hurt them.
> 
> People integrate into the local fabric... it was supposed to be that way. You don't know history. I will do everything in my power to ensure there is nothing such as a "Muhajir" in Pakistan ever again, it was never meant to be anything. Fun how the term is now being used as a tool for our enemies. Actually recently one of you claimed it is a derogatory term to them, to oppressed Muhajirs who somehow happen to be the richest community in Pakistan. lol. When they are trying to integrate and merge into the local communities Indians like you are showing their hypocritical faces.
> 
> God knows what our forefathers actually thought when they failed to integrate. There is nothing such as Muhajir. This is a reply for you and if it burns your bum you can sit inside a bucket of water.
> 
> 
> 
> I admit, I am disturbed, I am a donkey trying to adopt another skin, I am downright mad, but I will eliminate the ethnic and sectarian issues that divide us. Muhajir is simply a fake identity. Its not your fathers responsibility to ensure we maintain it. This is in fact a case of butt in India and head and arms stretching to Pakistan.
> 
> Situations in places change constantly and ethnicity is fluid-I would tell you about our family background if you had the brain to listen and you would find out some of our ancestors were Arab, some Tajik and one possibly Pashtun. I think its time to watch out for yourself. We have more news channels than entertainment channels. In India its the other way around since only what the government wants is reported. That Tamil Nadu Liberation Army may get you very soon. I bet they keep a tab on Indians like you... maybe they are outside your home.
> 
> 
> 
> When your country is broken from within don't cry to us... Btw if i begin to talk about our family, relatives and contacts left in Lucknow, Hyderabad and Delhi it will hurt your *** more than it hurts it when I call myself Pashtun? You can check my old posts before I had seen Altaf's stupid speech and I was much more committed to those in the past. It is also the reason I support the Bihari cause.
> 
> Obviously... kids will learn things from your family members and relatives. So basically despite our sacrifices for Pakistan unfortunately we were taught rubbish and muhajir chauvinism which I have the courage to reject now.
> 
> Pwe shwi? I guess not unless I speak mallu language. Urrvvrrr... hrrvveerrr.... sorry I am not a wolf, I mean Tamil so I cannot speak your tongue. We Pashtuns produced poets like Ghani Khan, Hamza Shinwari, Rehman Baba and Khushal Khan Khattak so our soft tongue does not match your horrid one.
> 
> And here are some links. Denying a reality doesn't make it disappear. Its not like farting. You fart and its no more in your stomach.
> 
> Why Freedom (Independence) for Tamil Nadu from Indian Rule?
> 
> Tamil Nadu Liberation Army (TNLA)
> 
> Is Tamil Nadu independence possible?
> 
> Denying something doesn't make it disappear. My initial articles as a journalist were all for muslims in India and defensive towards Pakistan... but a journalist cannot ignore local issues. Your country may not survive if you ignore its issues. Worse... if u don't look at them you might end up a victim of Tamil Nadu Liberation Army. Try and make friends rather than enemies. I know you have become used to paying bribes in Tamil Nadu being morally corrupt but unfortunately your elite membership isn't going to last long if you maintain your belligerent attitude. Learn from what happened to @RazPaK..



dude,what bulla u r giving people here,

There are people say Tamil people living thousands of miles away from pashtuns and they dont want to be called as pashtuns and neither do they want to be called anything other than what they actually are.

Same with any people anywhere.

Jews came from all over the place and they dont say we r russian jew,estonian jew,morccan jew etc,they just say they are jew.

You are talking about eating rice with hands to be poor,thats what your people eat as Biryani in Hyderabad and Awadh and from what i know UP Bhayyas didn't invent the fork and spoon or the table manners either.

You think we really care if you or anyone is going to show up at those restaurants or not,the tamil chettinad restaurants are brimming with crowds all the time.

I repeat again of that cabbie in abu dhabi who called Imran Khan a farzi pathan,i wonder what he ll call u?

Hahaha,

There are people like you in India also,they are even called pathani and infact they know that they are pathani they dont even care about proving it,unlike you.

And regarding the TNLA,hahahaha.

As always you know zukk,whether about your country Pakistan or my country India.


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## Secur

haviZsultan said:


> Personally to be truthful... I am looking for a publisher for my book since the one I am signed up with doesn't seem to strong-especially in the fiction field. So basically I want to give him an impressive record of my expertise. Think tank on a forum with millions of hits can help I guess.
> 
> Recently I jokingly told @Hyperion he make a request to promote me jr think thank or give me an interview... I hoped I'd actually get an interview though... just to confirm some things about Waziristan for my book but he shut me up pretty quick. :p
> 
> But despite wanting to be a think tank I don't want it to be unfair. lol. There are many posters like you @Hyperion and @Andromache who have many more posts and are more of a regular presence rather than one that is unreliable and suddenly disappears for a while to come back again. (Talking about myself)...
> 
> I will make the suggestion for you to be promoted to think tank. Also for a new role for @Armstrong-he is really good at relieving tension and ending heated arguments though he also specializes in derailing threads and spamming. No offense.
> 
> 
> 
> Every party has done the same... but Secur let me clarify why I specifically feel inclined to pick on the MQM. My family didn't just move across the border. It strongly identifies itself as Muhajir and are voters of the MQM, this support for them is all around me like a cacophony of maddening shrieks, i cannot escape it even by becoming a Pashtun. Basically ever since I got involved in politics I have been aware and been told that I am a Muhajir.
> 
> The changes you see are fairly recent. Now basically when someone is born in a community and sees its issues... he criticizes it right? I feel I have a right to criticize how we behaved and the formation of the MQM. This basically sets peoples hair on fire.
> 
> When I debate with MQM people I get called names like Pathan ki awlaad and other things. It was exact opposite with the Pashtuns (from Afghanistan and their backers) on that site but admin kicked me out.
> 
> Also I deeply thank you. Very few people come to accept what I have done, look at it positively without a trace of suspicion-especially since I feel loyal to the firangi mahal and ansari clan (our family) despite the change-how can i not be? Lucknow was the heartland of the muslim league and home of the lucknow pact. Bigots from both races have basically told me I don't belong in either.
> 
> Yes you are right. The issue is our heritage is unproven. Some relatives cite the anecdote of a Pashtun princess marrying one of our ancestors... but then how much of Pashtun blood do I have? Any way to gauge it? Another thing is it is unproven though I have believed this to be manifest truth for a while ... though talked about by some senior members in the khandaan, most, particularly MQM chauvinists deny it. Yes, thanks to a very good instructor I can understand Pashto but still when I speak people generally can tell I am not one of birth or learned the language... also make errors sometimes which pashto speakers may note. I know the vocabulary and most verbs but still have to learn how to apply them when its a he, she, it, I or you... lots of stuff. But my instructor is working on vocabulary which has greatly improved my ability to understand it.
> 
> Also you said the issue is not just an MQM issue... its a wider issue of race based politics. I wish to criticize this more openly... but the thing is (you would have noticed I don't criticize ANP heavily though I see it negatively) if I start criticizing Bacha Khan and ANP after I adopt Pashtun race its like I am joining and then I am telling Pashtuns what to do... only place I fight is when someone calls for the break up of my country or openly abuses other ethnic groups. I am especially concerned since the way people like Luffy and another member toramana react. They were racists but thing is they are right... they said I am a donkey trying to adopt lions skin but basically its very true.
> 
> Thing is I was nationalist long before anything else. I stop them when they abuse my country and reply back which they don't like at all. Still I try to avoid sharing my views on topics of sentimental value like ANP or Bacha Khan... but someone will talk about breaking my country i won't stop.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree... though I also believe those Afghan refugees should be given a chance to integrate by being given a chance to gain citizenship, particularly the affluent classes. That would piss off the keyboard warriors and Afghan-lover Pakistan bashers from the neighboring country-internet basically only comes in a few cities. 5% of the population has access only.) I guess I have a feeling for refugees regardless of their background and being callous towards them by calling Luffy or Sher Malang one.
> 
> As I said we moved late and Ayub closed the borders for some reason before all families had moved. Then there was some trouble in India with our relatives (distant) and people we knew in Hyderabad (our ancestral home is lucknow though but basically we were spread out)... some people lost family members there and stuff and we had lots of trouble trying to shift some relatives to Pakistan, my mother stayed in Lucknow and married from there, then became a Pakistani citizen. Guards at FIA office were abusive, insulted them and did everything to make them feel unwelcome. Why would they come to Pakistan and want to get citizenship if they loved India? But we don't have a brain in this regard. Look at the west. Importing professionals from Pakistan while manufacturing a brain drain in our land. We are turning educated people away instead. People may disagree b8 i support this still...
> 
> That played a part in my nationalism... I get affected by things and then go mad... have to take action.
> You can read up my old posts if you find some. I became extremely active with the Sufferers Witness at that time around 2-3 years ago (charity group, does lots of work on woman's rights but lots on helping refugees as well.), was even sympathetic to the MQM though I wouldn't have been if I saw that horrid speech and studied more (didn't have the contacts as a journalist either). Recently Luffy provoked me and I basically insulted my family background, our relatives in Pakistan and "Muhajirs" a lot. @Karachiite without knowing me made a post defending Altaf's speech. lol. But you see where I am coming from @Secur? Any reference of going back and merging with india is like a slap on my face, especially coming from a pakistan-any reference that partition is wrong is a slap to the things i have seen in Sufferers witness and with friends and family that moved from hyderabad. The thing is like this is what people moving across the border suffered, about a million were killed. We moved to make Pakistan and build it, because we believed in Quaid's dream, we wanted Pakistan, ALL of it, not just an enclave for so called "muhajirs". Not to vote for terrorist politicians.
> 
> I blamed the Indians a lot... but whats their fault? Don't we (some fanatics) do the same thing to minorities in Pakistan? And what do we care anyway? People in our khandaan are basically defending the MQM and Altaf's speech despite knowing of the people killed in India. I feel we are deviating from the task at hand.
> 
> Those days of partition must have been so romantic... leaving everything, our houses, our lives, even half our family members with no guarantee of what the future holds... and now when we are here... what do we feel, what do we do for our country? Nothing except bash the original inhabitants? I feel sad and very angry... this shouldn't have happened Secur. We died like pigs in a slaughterhouse down there... we can't become like that, indifferent. No one quits his race unless absolutely frustrated with what he saw.
> 
> When i talk to MQM chauvinists people like @Armstrong say nothing because if they interfere its basically like a non-muhajir speaking about the affairs of one... and then they have a little humility and anyone who talks about ethnic unity would support those guys... they understand the entire issue as well and how quickly things can become an ethnic firefight. But the thing is Secur... lets leave me... i am in many ways raceless, because both Pashtuns and Muhajirs will doubt my intentions the moment i speak about them and that also using the common we i do all the time.
> 
> But I guess the most important thing would be that you and @GIANTsasquatch and others do not stop speaking against the tyranny of the MQM. People from the race know more and can help convince these people and bring them out of it. My parents actually have been away from Pakistan half their life... i was raised in Dubai too most of my life with many years spent in Toronto. Our knowledge basically comes from our larger family/relatives. They support MQM our family will too as they do now. But if knowledgeable people like you and others challenge them then perhaps there is a chance to beat these guys.
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with the inter-marriage solution which I fully support. We cannot let these parties destroy the intricate beautiful bond between us Pakistanis (the various ethnic groups)... I hope by revolution you mean PTI cauz i'm voting for him...  but am a little cautious after u know so many years of looting...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. I think this is one of the best things... Pakistanis today are keen to accept their mistakes and rectify them. Personally I would never even have thought 5-10 years ago to gain any support for this idea. I also held and still hold the perhaps irrational fear that the current violence may divide my country further into tiny squabbling groups.
> 
> Basically its hard to be an optimist for me though. You will hear my name in humanitarian groups like TCF, Yaseer trust, Edhi and Ilm o amal other than on the nationalist front. Being a Pakistani today isn't just hard outside your country but in it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Btw I would also like to cast light on something else I could have and indeed have tried to do before. I used to be part of the Pakistan Nationalist Association which is part of a wider Nationalist movement. What we tried to do to end the ethnic issue once and for all was tell our members to basically say I am Pakistani whenever someone asked about their ethnic identity and we were told not to tell our kids our ethnic identity... something if done by 180 million people would have led to ethnicity disappearing completely. But you see the loopholes here were obvious:
> 1) Anyone can know your ethnicity by finding out the language you speak and the geographic location you inhibit especially if he has enough knowledge.
> 2) How is it possible? Is it possible to impose on people such an idea and basically shove it in their minds that they do this. my point here is what is going to ensure they won't tell their kids which race they belong to. In other ways, there is no way to IMPLEMENT it.
> 3) A small movement of 12000 members can only ensure that its laws apply of course to its members. What about the 180 million outside the movement. Luffy would go mad (though he appears to have changed or says so) and @darkinsky would commit suicide when told to give up ethnic identity even though its abusive to them (as I said Muhajir is a very abusive term-it delectably means traveler, is our family one of nomads??? Its an insult to themselves and they didn't try to get rid of it?)
> 
> I guess I don't need to tell you that our policy was the failure of the century which we used to make fun off boisterously including the leader who introduced the idea... we took steps later on demanding members to learn a number of languages other than their own in order to futilely obfuscate our ethnic identity yet again. (Its all being added in my ethnic paper. Will share it on PDF but may time writing it with the book and research and all) But point 2) remained. We can't stop people from jumping a red signal how are we going to tell them not to tell their kids their ethnicity. Plus what makes us think that ethnicity itself is the problem rather than bigotry or ethnic superciliousness?
> 
> Frankly it hasn't worked and we need another solution. I thought it would be a good one to merge into another ethnic group. Pashtuns... i loved them of course but they were also seen by our khandaan as the worst enemies of muhajirs thanks to the MQM (which was another reason I grew attracted to them)... this was and is the best solution, I believe. It also creates a great feeling of goodwill. A Pashtun (forget the douches in the e-world) has shown me nothing but respect upon learning my background. They can tell-I pause when speaking Pashto, struggle with words and it takes time to register what they are saying-so no I am not perfect yet!)
> 
> Also don't worry if I am a little defensive about Pashtuns... I have seen a lot of bias here, even in Dubai where I lived a lot of time. I will always be Pakistani first second and last... then a person who loves Pashtuns and calls himself one.
> 
> Am very glad to meet you. You would notice that whenever someone starts insulting a party like MQM it quickly degenerates into a race war. Even when I criticize Muhajir behavior it happens sometimes since I easily pass for a Pashtun on this site and people don't know the background... then it quickly becomes a pillow fight. People defend their ethnicity and attack the other. It shows they are not disengaged from ethnicity as they are supposed to be. But I believe you are and this would make you a great think-tank. I easily get riled too and you are an easy going person.
> 
> You do. I will talk about it to Webbie or give a suggestion. Sorry for that huge reply bro... i noticed that i failed to reply to some of your posts which were of extremely high quality. So I felt i should reply.



Honestly , I cant believe you are having trouble finding a publisher for your novel which I am sure would be a best seller when published . I haven't read it of course but I am judging from the quality of your posts specially with that detailed and extensive knowledge on the " situation on ground " in this war ... Aren't there a lot of publishing agencies ( even foreign ) that would be interested in such sort of novel because it is a hot topic at the moment ? and people are always keen to look at the other side of the picture ... Surely , a good reputation and Think Tank status at some huge website like this will help you ...

Really ? Fair Dinkum ? @Hyperion refused to give an interview for the book , Why ? Though I am positive that he may have passed the suggestion to Webbie ...

Well you and I incline the hate for the same reason for MQM and extremism , because from childhood , we have seen it in our backyards and neighborhoods with our people suffering from it ... I can understand the specific hate for the party because most of the family members support it blindly and mine sadly , are the same to say the least ... But I still consider extremism as far worse threat than whatever Pakistan has ever faced ... I studied in a Christian run school which ironically charged less for education than what the " welfare based Muslims " were offering then ! I have had the opportunity to study in a diverse environment and thus had the chance to understand different cultures and religions and see how extremism or fanatics pose a threat to them ... A psychological phenomenon usually observed how we perceive the dangers for us ...

Well , people usually fail in a debate , they get to their last resort of " maligning " the other person or calling other " traitor " or " half blood " ... And of course if you are criticizing the very party they believe has given them identity and remains their savior , I can imagine what they can do to save its reputation and unfortunately " attacking the messenger " is an easy method ... Somehow , I think you perceive it wrong ... There's nothing wrong in being a wannabe Pashtun or any race but you are sometimes emotionally compromised by their words of being " half blood " or not " being loyal to the race " ... I simply say " I dont give a damn **** " about what you have to say about my race or religion ... You must have noticed when I told that cyber ****** Zarvan that " Let my faith be judged by the God because nothing you say will change anything whatsoever in that regard " ... The same is partially true for the race issues too ... There's no authority on deciding anyone's race ... 

Let it be unproven then  ... Who cares in this 21st century where our ancestors married or where we should marry ? We aren't breeding horses here , right ? Yes , there's no way to determine how much blood do you have of a specific race ( I honestly laugh when people point it out who and what I am as if they have studied my genetic pool and traced my heritage ) but even if it were , what use would it be ? Having never studied Pashto in your childhood - which is the time many " agree " is the perfect for learning a language , sadly you can never attain the fluency and deeper understanding of the language of a person who was born in a Pashto family ... 

I can understand the limitations imposed by associating yourself with a particular race but isn't the very thing we seek to fight against ? Why not criticize Bacha Khan or Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan or ANP ? You wont be telling the Pashtuns what to do but merely to rectify their " versions " of history ... Calling a spade , a spade is the way to go ... The time for " doctrine of necessity " is well past , my friend ... Everyone associated with race based politics in our country's history has from time to time called for the disintegration of the country when their agendas weren't implemented or their aims " being not met " and or their very existence was in danger ... Look up the history of the Pakistan , it is filled with such cases ... Fortunately , God approves our undertakings and thus has protected the country from harm ( as I believe ) Latin " annuit coeptis " - found on the great american seal ... One can consider it anything but a miracle that the country has survived in terrible and harsh conditions with these parties and their " loyals " supporting them ... The Roman strategy of " divide and rule " works too well though , I am afraid ...

Mate , what you are forgetting that those Afghans are not loyal to this country despite our extension of hospitality and provision of facilities ... Those who are and do not work against our country can surely be given the chance to take this country's nationality but as far I understand , they wont be willing to do so ... They will seek every possible means to seek their extension in this country but never accept it as their own for various reasons ... Afghans are basically very anti-Pakistan , not from today not from the Soviet war but from the creation of this country ... My opinion may be stereoscopic and very weak about refugees though ... But you can still shed light on the thoughts of " Afghan refugees " in Pakistan ... I can understand the feelings arising from one's perception of humanity though ... They have suffered more than enough for most of the part of their history !

Well , most of them were settled here and integrated perfectly well into the society but still a considerable number of loyal and patriotic Pakistanis were left to rot in camps ... Still bring tears to my eyes , we can play hosts to everyone but our very own people ? Is this how nations treat their patriots ? There were various political reasons though and MQM again did everything which was detrimental to the cause of ensuring their arrival and integration in Pakistan , whatever they say exactly opposite shall be taken as nothing but " race based " politics again ... Though I sometimes wonder if this had something to do with the absurd " blood " concept , like the West is more than willing and eager to import talented brains because they dont believe in this fucked up mentality whilst the Middle East does exactly the opposite ? ... Yes , there are plenty of problem that even our lot faces from time to time , you cite the FIA guards ... I can cite the issues they encounter while obtaining their NIC or Passport when the person on the other side " Where were you born ? " and not " you are a Pakistani , right ? That does it , sir/madam " ...

That is great to hear that you did work for humanity regardless of their race ... I never myself had any sympathy to MQM because I thought rightly as " just another gang " seeking power for itself but from you are coming from , its understandable ... The traitor though opened many eyes with his " partition " speech - about time people learned the truth about his allegiances and bigotry ... You should rather have criticized yourself , mate understand one thing , people aren't bad by birth , I believe that its the situation that makes them so and even then most of them aren't really bad at heart ... @Karachiite basically did what the " less intelligent " usually do , follow other's line because they do not have one of them themselves ( opinion / understanding ) no critical thinking and pondering over things ability - not by birth but because they dont want to ... Yes , I can understand the anger after we have given so much for the country that we now cant see any harm being done to it and any venom being spewed against it ... The mere thought of " going back and changing loyalty " is disgusting and totally unacceptable ... What some do by saying that is basically stomp on Jinnah's grave , burn the flag of Pakistan and betray their ancestors who crossed the rivers of blood to reach this country ... 

Now coming to comment on that , we do worse my friend ... Why dont those people who cry havoc on the martyring of Babri Mosque do the same for Buddhas of Bamyan and other shrines too ? Why dont we condemn the treatment of minorities in the country ? Why dont we take the issues of them going to India seriously ? Why dont we raise our voice when one of their temples/churches is destroyed / set on fire by fanatics ? ... The Muslims remaining in India are loyal to that country , the line was long drawn , that is something which is well understood ... Well , the people you mentioned which we see a plenty in our daily lives are simply " jumping on the bandwagon " and following other's line without critical analysis of their own ...

Yes , with no safety of future and uncertainty , I shiver when I even think of that ... Think of it , would you have done the same then ? Are we as patriotic as our ancestors ? I do not think so ! But yes , we contribute to this country at the end of the day except for the slang terminology " Muhajir " which we impose upon us and mistreating people of other races ... Well , my friend at this time in history , races do not matter at all despite what some are led to believe ! This just doesn't makes sense to me , so you didn't quit your race , you merely stopped calling yourself that derogatory term ... How is that , now ? 

Yeah , I have seen the cautious attitude of members when commenting on sensitive matters specially when it comes to race - becoming a silent spectator in such case is understandable and well known ... Again , the race factor is at play as if one is restricted to comment on other races just because he isn't one of them ... I mean what sort of logic is that ? Does being of a specific race grant some exclusive rights ? You aren't raceless , you are of mixed race added with deep understanding and adaptation of another culture , not that it matters ... I myself am one and I do not give a damn what the haters have to say about it ...

Well , you have my firm assurance of _Etiamsi omnes, ego non_ ( Even if all others , I will not ) ... I will maintain my own judgement and opinion on issues and comment without any hesitance ... Yes , you are kind of right , people will pay more attention when again someone of their " race " criticizes the norm of their ... Mate , why are you having trouble with publishing novels when you reside out of this country ? I am sure you may have many many contacts by now ! ... Sure there is a chance and one shouldn't lose it by becoming silent because it encourages only the oppressor , not the oppressed ...

You see we are improving ! A couple of years even the mere mention of " rectifying " national mistakes and self-criticism was unacceptable and somehow set people's arses on fire , it isn't the case today ... Pakistanis react very differently to self criticism now , they now listen and critically think about it even to the extent of supporting you ... If this becomes a norm , a revolution might be coming sooner than we think at the moment ... The fear is natural , it just so happens that I feel more optimistic than ever , a strange feeling that be ... I see things improving in this country for everyone once this war ends and we start shaping our own policies and take sovereign decisions rather than dictations ...

I haven't heard of this party ever , I dont know why though ? Are you not represented enough ? ... Coming to the other issue , yes it is very easy to know of a person's ethnicity by manners of speaking , lifestyle and different cultures ... But again , why not tell people simply not to care about it ? Well educated people usually dont care about it , they dont ask the race or religion because it doesn't matter to them ... Is the problem then linked with literacy somehow ? Imposition of such an important and useful idea is of course not possible but still we on our own can make sure that at least we do the right thing and make our contribution to blurring the lines of ethnicity ... The 180 millions will be on your way when they educated and prosper ... They will start developing critical thinking skills and make new judgement for them rather than relying on a particular leader ... Teaching different languages actually worked to an extent , there's no denial but in no way I think it was a total failure ... the ethnicity is the problem itself because its the very cause of bigotry and disdain for others ... 

As I explained in my earlier posts , inter marriages and learning and understanding other's culture to appreciate it and rejection of " race based " politics will go a long way in ensuring that the lines are blurred and a person is identified by his country and not the race ... It will create a sense of oneness far better than good will and appreciation !

Me too , brother ... You see the severe side effects of this age old " race based " politics ? You start criticizing a party and it unbelievably becomes a race war , one wonders why ? Because people are made to think that somehow their existence and identity is linked with corrupt mafia of political parties ! Criticize one and get " visa " from the other , is it how its working ... I simply disassociate myself and do not care about hater's comments and do not think twice about them - because nothing they say change the reality on ground , a simple comment and reasoning suffices for them ... Maybe , it will help but I better like myself sitting in the back seat and ordering from there - making sure the work is done with plausible deniability 

I am starting to like " huge replies " ... Perhaps these topics cant be discussed with short comments and the book writer syndrome isn't going to leave you ever so why not adapt to it ?

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## Mughal-Prince

Two wrongs can never make one right ... Period.


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## haviZsultan

This time I promise I will try to be brief. You could write a book yourself Secur... really mean it! If I do well and get a good publisher you will have a brother around who can help you enter the industry... 



Secur said:


> Honestly , I cant believe you are having trouble finding a publisher for your novel which I am sure would be a best seller when published . I haven't read it of course but I am judging from the quality of your posts specially with that detailed and extensive knowledge on the " situation on ground " in this war ... Aren't there a lot of publishing agencies ( even foreign ) that would be interested in such sort of novel because it is a hot topic at the moment ? and people are always keen to look at the other side of the picture ... Surely , a good reputation and Think Tank status at some huge website like this will help you ...



It will... but you are much more entitled. After that is Hyperion. I hope you got an offer now. That thread got deleted, thanks to Luffy and gang. A position should be earned and how is my position earned when I disappear and reappear constantly... plus man look at my posts... I get pissed with people who take ethnicity too seriously or are worse, separatists, or are extremely hostile to Pakistan. I admit my posts have knowledge but strategically concealed in my posts are things like these (old post to an Indian national):


> The hair on your head are now making you feel heavy-headed now which is greatly limiting your ability to use your rust-eaten, dust-devoured brain... but in cases such as these what you tend to do is take those hair and paste them upon your pelvis in order to feel like a man.



Now if this post was a stand-alone post off nuclear-pakistan would come piercing through the air like a screeching Ghauri or Abdali missile and delete it. The only way I escape is basically by posting facts figures, population graphs, charts and information that only a person inside knowledge and an eye on international affairs can have... no one deletes massive posts with a lot of knowledge and arguments and some comments like those because they know otherwise it hampers debate. I have no clue if I will be able to refrain from those so no think-tank for me... 

Now you know my secret. :p



> Really ? Fair Dinkum ? @Hyperion refused to give an interview for the book , Why ? Though I am positive that he may have passed the suggestion to Webbie ...



No, no, he didn't refuse anything because I didn't get the chance to ask him... actually my actual hope was cornering him and forcing him to choose between 2 options-i thought he wouldn't be able to and then I would ask him for an interview-just to confirm some information a Burki provided-personally i'd like to know his village and tribe and find out if he particularly knows something about Ladha or Makeen. Apparently I should have known you can never corner a person from Waziristan. 90% of the people from Waziristan I have tried to interview have either refused or said okay only to end up not replying to me at all. Its 10% i rely on. Very hard... the situation is tough... so people are just a little nervous about intentions. 

He said he has already passed the suggestion to webbie to make me jr think tank. The conversation ended there and I didn't ask. Lets call @Hyperion here and he can read this then I will see. 



> Well you and I incline the hate for the same reason for MQM and extremism , because from childhood , we have seen it in our backyards and neighborhoods with our people suffering from it ... I can understand the specific hate for the party because most of the family members support it blindly and mine sadly , are the same to say the least ... But I still consider extremism as far worse threat than whatever Pakistan has ever faced ... I studied in a Christian run school which ironically charged less for education than what the " welfare based Muslims " were offering then ! I have had the opportunity to study in a diverse environment and thus had the chance to understand different cultures and religions and see how extremism or fanatics pose a threat to them ... A psychological phenomenon usually observed how we perceive the dangers for us ...



You are absolutely right... I am not trying to deny or draw attention away from the destruction the wahabi terrorists have caused in our Pak sarzameen... but basically a lot of things become secondary when u have bombs going off in the country near daily and in this is ignored the ethnic issue and a lot of social issues as well... like lets say drugs, rape and child abuse. People just say bombs are exploding across the country and you think about that? Just a point I am making. 

Btw Christians have done a lot for Pakistan. I'd like to see a Christian brother receive the Nishan E haider. Their colleges, their infrastructure still remains in the country and we study in their schools, colleges and visit their hospitals... which are as Pakistanis ours. I believe nationalism and religion are seperate. Nationalism and ethnic gratification are separate too though this does not mean that we try to kill cultures. Recently on twitter Ahmed Quraishi posted the same thing, that there should be no ethnicity, provinces, languages in Pakistan. We don't understand that if federational or nationalist party (we have none) had named NWFP Pakhtunkhwa and had helped Pashtuns develop their culture ANP would have no way to make inroads there. We Nationalists fail to understand the ethnic issue... thats why my organization made rules like the stupid ones I mentioned before which never worked. 



> Well , people usually fail in a debate , they get to their last resort of " maligning " the other person or calling other " traitor " or " half blood " ... And of course if you are criticizing the very party they believe has given them identity and remains their savior , I can imagine what they can do to save its reputation and unfortunately " attacking the messenger " is an easy method ... Somehow , I think you perceive it wrong ... There's nothing wrong in being a wannabe Pashtun or any race but you are sometimes emotionally compromised by their words of being " half blood " or not " being loyal to the race " ... I simply say " I dont give a damn **** " about what you have to say about my race or religion ... You must have noticed when I told that cyber ****** Zarvan that " Let my faith be judged by the God because nothing you say will change anything whatsoever in that regard " ... The same is partially true for the race issues too ... *There's no authority on deciding anyone's race* ...



Thank you very much. This is the best way of creating unity too. Last part especially well said. What can give someone a right to call someone Pashtun or non-pashtun... plus who knows our background man? Our ancester Abu Ayub Ansari was Arab, one of our ancestors a Tajik, we Lucknowites and I Pashtun... even Pir Roshan was known as Bayazid Ansari and is known to be a migrant. (Our family is Ansari) So I state that ethnicity is very fluid, people change locations and merge into the local community. Simple.



> Let it be unproven then  ... Who cares in this 21st century where our ancestors married or where we should marry ? We aren't breeding horses here , right ? Yes , there's no way to determine how much blood do you have of a specific race ( I honestly laugh when people point it out who and what I am as if they have studied my genetic pool and traced my heritage ) but even if it were , what use would it be ? Having never studied Pashto in your childhood - which is the time many " agree " is the perfect for learning a language , sadly you can never attain the fluency and deeper understanding of the language of a person who was born in a Pashto family ...



True. Actually it is not really a matter of great concern for me. I do not have to shove my newfound ethnicity in anyones face and feel insecure about it like Luffy. 



> I can understand the limitations imposed by associating yourself with a particular race but isn't the very thing we seek to fight against ? Why not criticize Bacha Khan or Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan or ANP ? You wont be telling the Pashtuns what to do but merely to rectify their " versions " of history ... Calling a spade , a spade is the way to go ... The time for " doctrine of necessity " is well past , my friend ... Everyone associated with race based politics in our country's history has from time to time called for the disintegration of the country when their agendas weren't implemented or their aims " being not met " and or their very existence was in danger ... Look up the history of the Pakistan , it is filled with such cases ... Fortunately , God approves our undertakings and thus has protected the country from harm ( as I believe ) Latin " annuit coeptis " - found on the great american seal ... One can consider it anything but a miracle that the country has survived in terrible and harsh conditions with these parties and their " loyals " supporting them ... The Roman strategy of " divide and rule " works too well though , I am afraid ...



I agree to an extent with what you say about the Pashtuns and I often argue with separatists (I just can't take them)... but I cannot interfere in anyone else's views, especially local Pakistani Pashtuns (among whom views greatly differe from Astanosh to andromache) or the race card very quickly comes in. Thats why I stop safriz and some people from commenting to others because its all these ethno-fascists want. It quickly becomes a race war. They insult pashtuns/punjabis/kashmiris and the person hearing it feels it is necessary to defend his ethnicity and fight back by attacking the other... which just means the bigoted ethno-fascist wins. 

I comment on ANP and Bacha Khan distantly... but if I do more its just a tool for people like Luffy. Its far different criticizing your ethnicity of birth though.... I let myself loose when talking about MQM severely criticizing most Muhajirs... but I told you I am frustrated with how we behaved. 

But I do criticize bad things of ANP and Bacha Khan (his view of united india very childish as his choice of burial place) but I stay a little careful on this front. People still think of me as a wannabe. I really love Pashtuns though, but you know I may never fit in... I can't afford not to be attracted to Pashtuns after studying so much... but I am largely disengaged. 

But if I defend them sometimes its not because I have become a Pashtun, its because I have seen the discrimination with my eyes. I defend them as a person who has seen discrimination to them from birth... and I want it to stop... not just against Pashtuns but everyone else. 



> Mate , what you are forgetting that those Afghans are not loyal to this country despite our extension of hospitality and provision of facilities ... Those who are and do not work against our country can surely be given the chance to take this country's nationality but as far I understand , they wont be willing to do so ... They will seek every possible means to seek their extension in this country but never accept it as their own for various reasons ... Afghans are basically very anti-Pakistan , not from today not from the Soviet war but from the creation of this country ... My opinion may be stereoscopic and very weak about refugees though ... But you can still shed light on the thoughts of " Afghan refugees " in Pakistan ... I can understand the feelings arising from one's perception of humanity though ... They have suffered more than enough for most of the part of their history !



Oh, don't worry about the Afghans (nation)... they are going to get a spanking on the buttocks. I have been chasing Luffy and sher malang for a week. Another troll from that horrid forum joined now... looks like its time to fry some Kabuli tikka. 

But the refugees... lets say as an active person on rights and stuff I have seen their plight. Most of them don't have a computer or even aware of this Pashtunistan rubbish. I don't say citizenship only for them... bring Biharis here, allow people escaping India to come. In 2003-2004 we had huge problem with this. We are too harsh on people. 



> Well , most of them were settled here and integrated perfectly well into the society but still a considerable number of loyal and patriotic Pakistanis were left to rot in camps ... Still bring tears to my eyes , we can play hosts to everyone but our very own people ? Is this how nations treat their patriots ? There were various political reasons though and MQM again did everything which was detrimental to the cause of ensuring their arrival and integration in Pakistan , whatever they say exactly opposite shall be taken as nothing but " race based " politics again ... Though I sometimes wonder if this had something to do with the absurd " blood " concept , like the West is more than willing and eager to import talented brains because they dont believe in this fucked up mentality whilst the Middle East does exactly the opposite ? ... Yes , there are plenty of problem that even our lot faces from time to time , you cite the FIA guards ... I can cite the issues they encounter while obtaining their NIC or Passport when the person on the other side " Where were you born ? " and not " you are a Pakistani , right ? That does it , sir/madam " ...



Yeah... its a problem. They don't understand... also its the same issue as with the Canadians that I saw. They want us to forget everything about India or being Indian... when a person moves and takes Pakistani citizenship it takes time to integrate. My mother's family stayed in Lucknow. Father came to Pakistan though he moved late (after 47-52 when most migration occurred)... now moving my mother to Pakistan and getting her citizenship, massive issue... replayed later in 2003 when some distant relatives and people in Hyderabad ran into issues. But now all people that moved are patriotic Pakistanis. Yes I don't like them because they don't understand the essence of being Pakistani which is respecting all ethnic groups.



> That is great to hear that you did work for humanity regardless of their race ... I never myself had any sympathy to MQM because I thought rightly as " just another gang " seeking power for itself but from you are coming from , its understandable ... The traitor though opened many eyes with his " partition " speech - about time people learned the truth about his allegiances and bigotry ... You should rather have criticized yourself , mate understand one thing , people aren't bad by birth , I believe that its the situation that makes them so and even then most of them aren't really bad at heart ...



Yeah... it scares me that these 3 leaders are making these kinds of speeches. I agree... a lot of people aren't bad at heart... but are just misled by leaders. 

@Karachiite basically did what the " less intelligent " usually do , follow other's line because they do not have one of them themselves ( opinion / understanding ) no critical thinking and pondering over things ability - not by birth but because they dont want to ... Yes , I can understand the anger after we have given so much for the country that we now cant see any harm being done to it and any venom being spewed against it ... The mere thought of " going back and changing loyalty " is disgusting and totally unacceptable ... *What some do by saying that is basically stomp on Jinnah's grave , burn the flag of Pakistan and betray their ancestors who crossed the rivers of blood to reach this country* ... [/QUOTE]

I agree... this is very personal for me... and since we moved late we have seen what the Indians did... the violence is fresh in a lot of our minds. Especially the 2003 incidents... sometime before that I was in Lucknow. 

BTW I mentioned exactly the same lines to Karachite and some others here on this site. 


> Now coming to comment on that , we do worse my friend ... *Why dont those people who cry havoc on the martyring of Babri Mosque do the same for Buddhas of Bamyan and other shrines too ? Why dont we condemn the treatment of minorities in the country ? Why dont we take the issues of them going to India seriously ? Why dont we raise our voice when one of their temples/churches is destroyed / set on fire by fanatics ? ... *The Muslims remaining in India are loyal to that country , the line was long drawn , that is something which is well understood ... Well , the people you mentioned which we see a plenty in our daily lives are simply " jumping on the bandwagon " and following other's line without critical analysis of their own ...



A1 comment that proves you deserve to be on the think-tank. Especially bold part. This is my biggest lesson basically from the things I saw and the difficulties we faced. Some people killed were very close. We cannot do the same thing in Pakistan. We cannot create more Sana's bajis and Saima's (some of the victims we saw)... we have to treat our own people with respect regardless of race or ethnicity. And we should equally condemn these things. 



> Yes , with no safety of future and uncertainty , I shiver when I even think of that ... Think of it , would you have done the same then ? Are we as patriotic as our ancestors ? I do not think so ! But yes , we contribute to this country at the end of the day except for the slang terminology " Muhajir " which we impose upon us and mistreating people of other races ... Well , my friend at this time in history , races do not matter at all despite what some are led to believe ! This just doesn't makes sense to me , so you didn't quit your race , you merely stopped calling yourself that derogatory term ... How is that , now ?



Thanks buddy! 
Makes me feel solid. 



> Yeah , I have seen the cautious attitude of members when commenting on sensitive matters specially when it comes to race - becoming a silent spectator in such case is understandable and well known ... Again , the race factor is at play as if one is restricted to comment on other races just because he isn't one of them ... I mean what sort of logic is that ? Does being of a specific race grant some exclusive rights ? You aren't raceless , you are of mixed race added with deep understanding and adaptation of another culture , not that it matters ... I myself am one and I do not give a damn what the haters have to say about it ...



It isn't any logic... but basically what I have seen is a member quitens down when someone from his own race responds and keeps fighting when someone from outside does it. They rely on racism... they can't insult anyone else from their own race because they have to talk rubbish about other ethnic groups so basically they feel like a shipwreck... like they are falling and have no railing to hold on to... thats why people like Sher Malang you may have noticed are stuck on my ethnicity and keep trying to deny it... I will admit it... I am not afraid of them. 

It doesn't hurt me what anyone says bro... i am indeed more or less raceless.  And it is not the end of the world... i don't need race to survive. But if I am saying I am Pashtun yes its also because I love Pashtuns but a message of unity too. Will I be greatly hurt when people say I am not one, while on other side so called Muhajirs say the same thing. No, i guess. But my intention is to make a difference... i feel I am not making one which worries me. 

I just can't convince these people and I want that desperately. 



> Well , you have my firm assurance of _Etiamsi omnes, ego non_ ( Even if all others , I will not ) ... I will maintain my own judgement and opinion on issues and comment without any hesitance ... Yes , you are kind of right , people will pay more attention when again someone of their " race " criticizes the norm of their ... Mate , why are you having trouble with publishing novels when you reside out of this country ? I am sure you may have many many contacts by now ! ... Sure there is a chance and one shouldn't lose it by becoming silent because it encourages only the oppressor , not the oppressed ...



Actually I got sick... ulcer and stuff, bacteria too, breathe very heavy-sometimes people find it amusing-I can't go out much like that. So I lost a lot of contacts but these were mostly social, guys and girls u chill with and stuff-also lost my position as leader of PNA. Now what I have is journalistic contacts... most haven't really helped in regard . There is however one guy who said he knows an agent and can entice him to read my manuscript. So waiting for some inside job for now. 

As far as publishing the book is concerned I already found a publisher... but I am trying to ditch them and go for BIG fish... big fish here means randomhouse-penguin with 80% of all book sales globally. But I have to get through to them with an agent. In short its a long story and I will only bore you with the intricacies of book publishing which is extremely hard in this day and age. Authors literally have to beg to get their books signed. But if I sign with randomhouse a lot of issues get fixed and you might see me among Mohsin Hamid and Bina Shah. 



> You see we are improving ! A couple of years even the mere mention of " rectifying " national mistakes and self-criticism was unacceptable and somehow set people's arses on fire , it isn't the case today ... Pakistanis react very differently to self criticism now , they now listen and critically think about it even to the extent of supporting you ... If this becomes a norm , a revolution might be coming sooner than we think at the moment ... The fear is natural , it just so happens that I feel more optimistic than ever , a strange feeling that be ...* I see things improving in this country for everyone once this war ends and we start shaping our own policies and take sovereign decisions rather than dictations* ...



Entirely true! Stay this optimistic. I was like you... and for godsake never take up journalism and rights issues as a career path... it will rot your brain and make you lose optimism. It happened to me. 



> I haven't heard of this party ever , I dont know why though ? Are you not represented enough ? ... Coming to the other issue , yes it is very easy to know of a person's ethnicity by manners of speaking , lifestyle and different cultures ... But again , why not tell people simply not to care about it ? Well educated people usually dont care about it , they dont ask the race or religion because it doesn't matter to them ... Is the problem then linked with literacy somehow ? Imposition of such an important and useful idea is of course not possible but still we on our own can make sure that at least we do the right thing and make our contribution to blurring the lines of ethnicity ... The 180 millions will be on your way when they educated and prosper ... They will start developing critical thinking skills and make new judgement for them rather than relying on a particular leader ... Teaching different languages actually worked to an extent , there's no denial but in no way I think it was a total failure ... the ethnicity is the problem itself because its the very cause of bigotry and disdain for others ...



We want to host a political party. Like 12,000 members is nothing right. Sunni Tehreek had like 700,000 when it made a debut into national politics. Nationalism is an infant ideology as yet. 


> As I explained in my earlier posts , inter marriages and learning and understanding other's culture to appreciate it and rejection of " race based " politics will go a long way in ensuring that the lines are blurred and a person is identified by his country and not the race ... It will create a sense of oneness far better than good will and appreciation !



True I wish to see the day when lines of race are blurred completely. 


> Me too , brother ... You see the severe side effects of this age old " race based " politics ? You start criticizing a party and it unbelievably becomes a race war , one wonders why ? Because people are made to think that somehow their existence and identity is linked with corrupt mafia of political parties ! Criticize one and get " visa " from the other , is it how its working ... I simply disassociate myself and do not care about hater's comments and do not think twice about them - because nothing they say change the reality on ground , a simple comment and reasoning suffices for them ... Maybe , it will help but I better like myself sitting in the back seat and ordering from there - making sure the work is done with plausible deniability



Yeah I could learn... 



> I am starting to like " huge replies " ... Perhaps these topics cant be discussed with short comments and the book writer syndrome isn't going to leave you ever so why not adapt to it ?



I agree.

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## Hyperion

@haviZsultan, dude your research is pretty good, and your writing style shows promise. Though, at times, you do digress and your focus is all over the place. Try to keep information concise, with catchy punchlines.

I'd recommend you any day to @WebMaster for a Jr. Think Tank title. We definitely need people who understand the Pashtun 'mindset', and can advocate their viewpoints in the National context, of-course, without prejudice.

By the way, whoever I am, we're pretty much a very secretive bunch, and we like to keep it that way. My apologies, as it's my habit to write short replies.

Furthermore, I am pretty impressed with @Secur's analytical abilities!

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## Armstrong

@haviZsultan : Tell me more about your family that moved from India (post the Partition & there about) !

How do Indian Muslims see the rest of us ? 

Do they think that they were better off staying there & us worse off or vice versa ? 

Why did your Dad choose to move so late to Pakistan ? 

*I'm sorry if its of a personal nature & I'd very much understand if you'd tell me to foOk off but curiosity gets the better of me*

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## haviZsultan

Hyperion said:


> @haviZsultan, dude your research is pretty good, and your writing style shows promise. Though, at times, you do digress and your focus is all over the place. Try to keep information concise, with catchy punchlines.
> 
> I'd recommend you any day to @WebMaster for a Jr. Think Tank title. We definitely need people who understand the Pashtun 'mindset', and can advocate their viewpoints in the National context, of-course, without prejudice.
> 
> By the way, whoever I am, we're pretty much a very secretive bunch, and we like to keep it that way. My apologies, as it's my habit to write short replies.
> 
> Furthermore, I am pretty impressed with @Secur's analytical abilities!



No man... i don't want Jr think tank i will earn it if I have to later on with quality of posts rather than back-channels, also it limits my ability to make posts like that. I want an interview actually... but u said u don't wanna share personal information. I know... i start on one topic end on another... so they say! 

My real wish was an interview to confirm some things and it can only come from someone from Waziristan. If you agree your name will be mentioned in the acknowledgements section... or I could just say Hyperion too which may look weird but okay too I guess. If the book becomes famous you become a big name and can say that to your employer that you were considered an authority on Waziristan so a famous author contacted you. Its ur choice. I just need to ask very basic questions, mostly confirming things other Wazirs/Maseeds/Burkis have told me. Most have denied though... i must admit. 

Yeah... you and Secur should be on the think tank.

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## Hyperion

Mate, I have no employer, never worked a day for anyone. I make all the moolah on the basis of anonymity, and staying under the radar! 



haviZsultan said:


> No man... i don't want Jr think tank i will earn it if I have to later on with quality of posts rather than back-channels, also it limits my ability to make posts like that. I want an interview actually... but u said u don't wanna share personal information. I know... i start on one topic end on another... so they say!
> 
> My real wish was an interview to confirm some things and it can only come from someone from Waziristan. If you agree your name will be mentioned in the acknowledgements section... or I could just say Hyperion too which may look weird but okay too I guess. If the book becomes famous you become a big name and can say that to your employer that you were considered an authority on Waziristan so a famous author contacted you. Its ur choice. I just need to ask very basic questions, mostly confirming things other Wazirs/Maseeds/Burkis have told me. Most have denied though... i must admit.
> 
> Yeah... you and Secur should be on the think tank.

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## haviZsultan

Armstrong said:


> @haviZsultan : Tell me more about your family that moved from India (post the Partition & there about) !
> 
> How do Indian Muslims see the rest of us ?
> 
> Do they think that they were better off staying there & us worse off or vice versa ?
> 
> Why did your Dad choose to move so late to Pakistan ?
> 
> *I'm sorry if its of a personal nature & I'd very much understand if you'd tell me to foOk off but curiosity gets the better of me*



We are Ansaris from my mothers side... my fathers side... is kind of... no proper history or obscure history... some stuff about tracing lineage from Ali... but I think all of this has become quite a fun thing. But the Ansari lineage has been traced to the last ancestor Abu Ayub Ansari. Our family name is iranian from our fathers side. But I will not comment too much on my fathers side as its too personal. 

Actually you might be surprised to know that most families did not move by 1947... no one knew what would happen for a long time and which province would go to which nation (India or Pakistan)... most came in the next years. There was constant trickle of migrants in later years... forget how we got there. Ayub Khan had closed the borders some say on account of worsening relations with India... but all migrants couldn't move because of that. Even in 2001 there was a protest on the border with muslim families wanting to be given permission to come into Pakistan. 

Both my parents ancestral area (in recent few hundred years-before that are claims of arab heritage which ansaris can prove but fathers side can't) is Barabanki, Lucknow, bareygaon (all in UP)... but no people stay in exactly one place so a lot also have spread to Delhi, Agra, Hyderabad and Bihar. 

I hate to disappoint you but most Indian muslims integrated... they are Indian especially the youngest generations... talk with my mamoo however reveals that until the 1980's they were supportive of Pakistan... but things have gradually changed. We closed the borders to them anyway even though a lot of people who come are from very rich or educated backgrounds. Their kids dislike Pakistan and hold as negative views as any other-Hindus or whoever. BUT, that is the general situation and Secur will confirm. But yes... in Hyderabad there was a little trouble. After Gujarat riots there were riots all across India which the government is not being too truthful about and we want that toll included in toll of Gujarat riots... but government statistics are extremely biased and lower the number even in gujarat and don't count its after-effects and riots it caused. 

There were riots in lucknow too from what I hear but in Hyderabad they were very bad. All these were much smaller scale than Gujarat though. Much fewer people killed... but in Hyderabad it was worst cause its 40% muslim and 60% Hindu. Sana baji was killed because of some RSS terrorist in college. Some issues after that... we go to file a report and they ... I was in lucknow around that time... or close. But it was a big issue and shock there. 

I also have contact with Azad Deccan movement which is started mostly by people who lost loved ones in hate related incidents. I identity strongly with them too because of links... but these links not as solid. Father has some Hyderabadi links... but when i came all these guys are very distant relatives. Like my 3rd or 4th cousins and stuff. 

Also for the jama masjid blasts they took one guy and tortured him very badly, think he died only to find out attack was the handiwork of RSS and gang. So there is something in Hyderabad I will say because then we moved people too after all this but I can't say for all of them that they have anti-India views. I know some anti-Indian cousins and uncles in Hyderabad. When a wrong takes place its natural reaction... plus its not just about few people killed. Its about justice. Police jailed relatives and told them to keep shut on the Afzalganj/Azampura cases. Then they take the case to courts and they say go to Pakistan... some of them did exactly that. its intrinsic bias in the system but what can we complain when we have the same thing here. 

But note: these people moved and despite losing close relatives (like brothers , sisters for my aunts and cousins for my cousins) they fell into the same routine... everyone else was supporting MQM... they did too and are also fast-becoming haters of other ethnic groups. 

The thing was Ayub khan for no reason closed the border before everyone had moved. I still have to understand the sense of it. A lot more of us would have moved otherwise. Some people were just waiting in Lucknow, they supported Pakistan from the beginning. They were waiting for members of family to go there and settle, then call them there. But it took time for us to build things. My fathers family was actually very poor or we could have accommodated people. My maternal grandfather was so fond of Pakistan So they got stuck in Indian occupied Lucknow for like ever (It is occupied-it belonged to Pakistan on Chaudhry ahmed ali's map-we were supposed to get it)

I was going to answer your post about so-called Muhajirs right to maintain their so-called culture but the thread was closed... but Luffy was right. It was basically deviating from its purpose. 

I will be precise about the question you asked, that if I respect all cultures and languages in Pakistan and want to promote them because that is what makes Pakistan rich then why do I not respect my pathetic so-called "muhajirs". Will host a thread tommorow-split discussion about Muhajir identity. Will tag you there as you have interest in the selected topic. Will also tag Secur in the discussion as it would be an honor having him there. 

Okay... moved half the post which was a reply to you at Baithak. Will tag you and secur.

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## Armstrong

@haviZsultan : Hmmmn ! Sounds like what my family friends (Biharis & Bijanuris) think off & what their family thinks. 

But my family members from Jammu & Kashmir are die-hard Pakistani supporters with some of them coming to Pakistan & settling here throughout the past 60 years, others moving to Ireland & Germany of all places (God knows why that choice) & yet a few dozen who choose to stay behind. 

There are 2-3 families who are Pro-Independence but no Pro-India guy as far as I know ! Dunno why they didn't integrate though ! Perhaps because some lost loved ones as far fresh as the mid '90s whereas others just couldn't give up 'Kashmir banega Pakistan' thing that their forefathers talked about.

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## haviZsultan

Armstrong said:


> @haviZsultan : Hmmmn ! Sounds like what my family friends (Biharis & Bijanuris) think off & what their family thinks.
> 
> But my family members from Jammu & Kashmir are die-hard Pakistani supporters with some of them coming to Pakistan & settling here throughout the past 60 years, others moving to Ireland & Germany of all places (God knows why that choice) & yet a few dozen who choose to stay behind.
> 
> There are 2-3 families who are Pro-Independence but no Pro-India guy as far as I know ! Dunno why they didn't integrate though ! Perhaps because some lost loved ones as far fresh as the mid '90s whereas others just couldn't give up 'Kashmir banega Pakistan' thing that their forefathers talked about.



I think I confused you with the post since I am usually not too articulate in my writing when I write quickly. *There are some family members in Pakistan.*
*
Then some in what is now India*... I should have been specific. No one in Pakistan is Anti-Pakistani though they somehow try to find amazing ways to defend Altaf's speech DESPITE those things I told you about. 

But they believe the MQM theory... they are oppressed, they are victimized, they had a larger role in making Pakistan which is just self-glorification... lots of other stupid ideas and versions of history imported from the MQM which honestly I believe is very much like Luffy's ways... its a twisted version of history that is being taught. I have posted a reply to your old question. I hope it will explain things perfectly, particularly my views about the fake muhajir identity.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

haviZsultan said:


> We are Ansaris from my mothers side... my fathers side... is kind of... no proper history or obscure history... some stuff about tracing lineage from Ali... but I think all of this has become quite a fun thing. But the Ansari lineage has been traced to the last ancestor Abu Ayub Ansari. Our family name is iranian from our fathers side. But I will not comment too much on my fathers side as its too personal.



Havi you are very knowlegible, tell us in detail about this ashraf-ajlaf division among indian muslims, wikipedia says,
_Some of the backward or lower-caste Muslim caste include Ansari, Kunjra, Dhobi and Halalkhor. The upper caste Muslim caste include Syed, Pathan, Turk, Sheikh and Mallik.[14] Genetic data has also supported this stratification_
Caste system among South Asian Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

haviZsultan said:


> The thing was Ayub khan for no reason closed the border before everyone had moved. I still have to understand the sense of it. A lot more of us would have moved otherwise. Some people were just waiting in Lucknow, they supported Pakistan from the beginning. They were waiting for members of family to go there and settle, then call them there. But it took time for us to build things. My fathers family was actually very poor or we could have accommodated people. My maternal grandfather was so fond of Pakistan So t*hey got stuck in Indian occupied Lucknow for like ever (It is occupied-it belonged to Pakistan on Chaudhry ahmed ali's map-we were supposed to get it)
> *



I hope you are not serious, dont want to offend any one but chaudry rehmat ali proposed map was quite childish and more of a fantasy, There was a reason why smart man like Jinnah ignored him,

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## Armstrong

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I hope you are not serious, dont want to offend any one but chaudry rehmat ali proposed map was quite childish and more of a fantasy, There was a reason why smart man like Jinnah ignored him,



Oye isss meiinn Butt-istan kidhar haiii ?

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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Havi you are very knowlegible, tell us in detail about this ashraf-ajlaf division among indian muslims, wikipedia says,
> _Some of the backward or lower-caste Muslim caste include Ansari, Kunjra, Dhobi and Halalkhor. The upper caste Muslim caste include Syed, Pathan, Turk, Sheikh and Mallik.[14] Genetic data has also supported this stratification_
> Caste system among South Asian Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



It seems like an RSS attempt to shove their communities issues on to the Muslims. Frankly I have never even heard of this. Also my father is not from any of the castes mentioned but from one that is influential in Iran. Why did he then marry this low caste ansari?... in fact how is it a tradition in the entire family of my father to marry only ansaris? 

Luffy, totally being serious I criticize our family when I see something wrong and have been doing it 24/7 for their biases against ethnic groups in Pakistan... in the past I have strongly felt it was like a god-given duty to defend all ansaris or my fathers family (which I will not share as it becomes traceable and a bit too personal) but now I am noticing its just making my own position tenuous. That is why you would have seen me defending Muslims in India... but I am trying to disengage from that as it weakens my ability to merge into Pashtuns... people just think why he needs to maintain links with them even if some of them are Pro-Pakistan it is hard to understand. 

Lots of other issues play a role too like muslims there gradually integrating. But thats another thing.

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## Pukhtoon

Sher Malang said:


> Pashtuns Tajiks Uzbeks Hazaras are all Afghan! ANA's whole structure is Afghanised not Pashtunised, Tajikised, Hazarised or etc.. your ***** will not inflame Afghans from within again, watch your back for daily separatist movements Pakistan will soon be liberated from Punjabi dominated government.
> 
> Gift for you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Hazara boy: Hazara, Awghu(Pashtun), Tajik, Uzbek all are brothers_
> 
> @ topic:
> 
> *Afghanistan condemn torture of Pakistani nationals*
> 
> Afghan foreign ministry strongly condemned torture of Pakistani nationals by Afghan security forces.
> 
> *Foreign ministry spokesman Janan Mosazai said Afghan govermnent has launched probe in this regard and the insisted that the government is committed for the security of Pakistani citizens in Afghanistan.*
> 
> He also said that the Afghan Charge DAffaires has met with the Pakistani officials in this regard.
> 
> Pakistani security officials on Saturday sealed the Torkham border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, in response to the torture on Pakistani labourers by Afghan security personnel.
> 
> A Foreign Office spokesman said that Pakistan has taken serious note of Afghan soldiers beating up of the Pakistanis despite their having valid travel documents and summoned the Afghan Charge d Affaires to foreign ministry in the morning and lodged a strong protest, seeking an investigation into the incident and action against those responsible.
> 
> A similar protest was lodged by the Pakistan Ambassador in Kabul with the Afghan government.
> 
> The labourers told that they had travelled to Afghanistan for work but the company concerned refused to pay their wages. They added they had also been locked up in Afghanistans Pul-i-Charkhi prison where they were tortured by jail authorities. And when they were returning, Afghan forces allegedly tore their Pakistani passports, snatched their money and beat up them brutally.
> 
> ---------
> 
> 
> Today's news only proves that ANSF was right in torturing those Pakistanis when those Pakistanis have armed men on the other side of border! this only means those tortured Pakistanis were not innocent.
> 
> And LOL @ their type of revenge looting innocent passengers? it shows the economical state of the people of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> And their puppets in this website!




O Really ?

https://www.facebook.com/Northafg


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## Sher Malang

Pukhtoon said:


> O Really ?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/Northafg



I know the Admin of the page with all his details so keep it with yourself he is not residing in Afghanistan he has serious pain from 90s.


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## Armstrong

@Pukhtoon : Rora, kaisaa haiii ?  

What does your signature mean ? 

What are your views on the topic ?

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## Pukhtoon

Armstrong said:


> @Pukhtoon : Rora, kaisaa haiii ?
> 
> What does your signature mean ?
> 
> What are your views on the topic ?



M Mast. .. U Say ?

My Signature means :

Sta Meena Rekhtiya Wa Che Qurbaan De Da Watana Kra..( Tumhari Muhabbat Suchi thi jo tu ne Qurban kar de is Pak watan se)
Ta Kho A BILORA PukhtunKhwa Tola GhamJana Kra ... RIP (TU ne tu a Bilor poore KPK ko he ghamzada kar dia )

About the topic. Yaar bottom line !

They hate us And in return We Hate them  thats faCt.

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## Armstrong

Pukhtoon said:


> M Mast. .. U Say ?
> 
> My Signature means :
> 
> Sta Meena Rekhtiya Wa Che Qurbaan De Da Watana Kra..( Tumhari Muhabbat Suchi thi jo tu ne Qurban kar de is Pak watan se)
> Ta Kho A BILORA PukhtunKhwa Tola GhamJana Kra ... RIP (TU ne tu a Bilor poore KPK ko he ghamzada kar dia )
> 
> About the topic. Yaar bottom line !
> 
> They hate us And in return We Hate them  thats faCt.



I don't like the ANP but I too respect Bilor for being very brave & taking the same risks that the rest of us are exposed to - a people's man ! May he Rest in Peace. 

Bhai, don't hate them; Afghani Naan is too good !

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## Pukhtoon

Armstrong said:


> I don't like the ANP but I too respect Bilor for being very brave & taking the same risks that the rest of us are exposed to - a people's man ! May he Rest in Peace.
> 
> Bhai, don't hate them; Afghani Naan is too good !



If you check my post again i said IN RETURN we hate them.

Its not like we hate them thats why they hate us... IT IS

They hate us so in return we hate them.

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## Armstrong

Pukhtoon said:


> If you check my post again i said IN RETURN we hate them.
> 
> Its not like we hate them thats why they hate us... IT IS
> 
> They hate us so in return we hate them.



Yaraa tuuu tou serious hii ho giyaaa...abbb saath mujhee eik chapppair bhi na lagaa deiiin !  

Rora, I don't like them either because I haven't had the best of experiences with them with them saying the worst things imaginable about Pakistanis & in particular Punjabis & Pakistani Pashtuns !

Heck my friend from Bajaur dislikes them more than I ever can ! I would have thought that the Tribals would atleast like them but no !  

He says that if tables were turned the Bars would never have taken the Lars as refugees; itnaa touuu nahin koii ghusaa hoo saktaaa !

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Tribals of hills simply dont care about central authority whether its from Pakistan or Afghanistan. Durrani rule on these tribals was always nominal, sikhs never stepped foot there and British had to face tough resistance in their efforts to subdue these tribes. Pakistan made mistake of interfering in FATA, and result is local uprising in the shape of TTP from bajaur to Waziristan.


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## Secur

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Pakistan made mistake of interfering in FATA, and result is local uprising in the shape of TTP from bajaur to Waziristan.



You are talking if the Govt of Pakistan had any other choice at that time ... We were literally caught between the devil and the deep sea thanks to the mistakes made by the Commander of the Faithful in the 80's ... TTP isn't the result of moving our army in the tribal belt , it is the manifestation of something far more terrible - the ideology of extremism ...

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## Mech

Uh oh ......Pakistan causing trouble for afghans as well ? Naughty naughty


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## Dance

Mech said:


> Uh oh ......Pakistan causing trouble for afghans as well ? Naughty naughty



If you had read, you would have seen that Afghanistan started all this first when they beat up Pakistanis in Afghanistan.

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## Secur

haviZsultan said:


> This time I promise I will try to be brief. You could write a book yourself Secur... really mean it! If I do well and get a good publisher you will have a brother around who can help you enter the industry...
> 
> It will... but you are much more entitled. After that is Hyperion. I hope you got an offer now. That thread got deleted, thanks to Luffy and gang. A position should be earned and how is my position earned when I disappear and reappear constantly... plus man look at my posts... I get pissed with people who take ethnicity too seriously or are worse, separatists, or are extremely hostile to Pakistan. I admit my posts have knowledge but strategically concealed in my posts are things like these (old post to an Indian national):
> 
> No, no, he didn't refuse anything because I didn't get the chance to ask him... actually my actual hope was cornering him and forcing him to choose between 2 options-i thought he wouldn't be able to and then I would ask him for an interview-just to confirm some information a Burki provided-personally i'd like to know his village and tribe and find out if he particularly knows something about Ladha or Makeen. Apparently I should have known you can never corner a person from Waziristan. 90% of the people from Waziristan I have tried to interview have either refused or said okay only to end up not replying to me at all. Its 10% i rely on. Very hard... the situation is tough... so people are just a little nervous about intentions.
> 
> He said he has already passed the suggestion to webbie to make me jr think tank. The conversation ended there and I didn't ask. Lets call @Hyperion here and he can read this then I will see.
> 
> You are absolutely right... I am not trying to deny or draw attention away from the destruction the wahabi terrorists have caused in our Pak sarzameen... but basically a lot of things become secondary when u have bombs going off in the country near daily and in this is ignored the ethnic issue and a lot of social issues as well... like lets say drugs, rape and child abuse. People just say bombs are exploding across the country and you think about that? Just a point I am making.
> 
> Btw Christians have done a lot for Pakistan. I'd like to see a Christian brother receive the Nishan E haider. Their colleges, their infrastructure still remains in the country and we study in their schools, colleges and visit their hospitals... which are as Pakistanis ours. I believe nationalism and religion are seperate. Nationalism and ethnic gratification are separate too though this does not mean that we try to kill cultures. Recently on twitter Ahmed Quraishi posted the same thing, that there should be no ethnicity, provinces, languages in Pakistan. We don't understand that if federational or nationalist party (we have none) had named NWFP Pakhtunkhwa and had helped Pashtuns develop their culture ANP would have no way to make inroads there. We Nationalists fail to understand the ethnic issue... thats why my organization made rules like the stupid ones I mentioned before which never worked.
> 
> Thank you very much. This is the best way of creating unity too. Last part especially well said. What can give someone a right to call someone Pashtun or non-pashtun... plus who knows our background man? Our ancester Abu Ayub Ansari was Arab, one of our ancestors a Tajik, we Lucknowites and I Pashtun... even Pir Roshan was known as Bayazid Ansari and is known to be a migrant. (Our family is Ansari) So I state that ethnicity is very fluid, people change locations and merge into the local community. Simple.
> 
> True. Actually it is not really a matter of great concern for me. I do not have to shove my newfound ethnicity in anyones face and feel insecure about it like Luffy.
> 
> I agree to an extent with what you say about the Pashtuns and I often argue with separatists (I just can't take them)... but I cannot interfere in anyone else's views, especially local Pakistani Pashtuns (among whom views greatly differe from Astanosh to andromache) or the race card very quickly comes in. Thats why I stop safriz and some people from commenting to others because its all these ethno-fascists want. It quickly becomes a race war. They insult pashtuns/punjabis/kashmiris and the person hearing it feels it is necessary to defend his ethnicity and fight back by attacking the other... which just means the bigoted ethno-fascist wins.
> 
> I comment on ANP and Bacha Khan distantly... but if I do more its just a tool for people like Luffy. Its far different criticizing your ethnicity of birth though.... I let myself loose when talking about MQM severely criticizing most Muhajirs... but I told you I am frustrated with how we behaved.
> 
> But I do criticize bad things of ANP and Bacha Khan (his view of united india very childish as his choice of burial place) but I stay a little careful on this front. People still think of me as a wannabe. I really love Pashtuns though, but you know I may never fit in... I can't afford not to be attracted to Pashtuns after studying so much... but I am largely disengaged.
> 
> But if I defend them sometimes its not because I have become a Pashtun, its because I have seen the discrimination with my eyes. I defend them as a person who has seen discrimination to them from birth... and I want it to stop... not just against Pashtuns but everyone else.
> 
> Oh, don't worry about the Afghans (nation)... they are going to get a spanking on the buttocks. I have been chasing Luffy and sher malang for a week. Another troll from that horrid forum joined now... looks like its time to fry some Kabuli tikka.
> 
> But the refugees... lets say as an active person on rights and stuff I have seen their plight. Most of them don't have a computer or even aware of this Pashtunistan rubbish. I don't say citizenship only for them... bring Biharis here, allow people escaping India to come. In 2003-2004 we had huge problem with this. We are too harsh on people.
> 
> Yeah... its a problem. They don't understand... also its the same issue as with the Canadians that I saw. They want us to forget everything about India or being Indian... when a person moves and takes Pakistani citizenship it takes time to integrate. My mother's family stayed in Lucknow. Father came to Pakistan though he moved late (after 47-52 when most migration occurred)... now moving my mother to Pakistan and getting her citizenship, massive issue... replayed later in 2003 when some distant relatives and people in Hyderabad ran into issues. But now all people that moved are patriotic Pakistanis. Yes I don't like them because they don't understand the essence of being Pakistani which is respecting all ethnic groups.
> 
> Yeah... it scares me that these 3 leaders are making these kinds of speeches. I agree... a lot of people aren't bad at heart... but are just misled by leaders.
> 
> I agree... this is very personal for me... and since we moved late we have seen what the Indians did... the violence is fresh in a lot of our minds. Especially the 2003 incidents... sometime before that I was in Lucknow.
> 
> BTW I mentioned exactly the same lines to Karachite and some others here on this site.
> 
> A1 comment that proves you deserve to be on the think-tank. Especially bold part. This is my biggest lesson basically from the things I saw and the difficulties we faced. Some people killed were very close. We cannot do the same thing in Pakistan. We cannot create more Sana's bajis and Saima's (some of the victims we saw)... we have to treat our own people with respect regardless of race or ethnicity. And we should equally condemn these things.
> 
> Thanks buddy!
> Makes me feel solid.
> 
> It isn't any logic... but basically what I have seen is a member quitens down when someone from his own race responds and keeps fighting when someone from outside does it. They rely on racism... they can't insult anyone else from their own race because they have to talk rubbish about other ethnic groups so basically they feel like a shipwreck... like they are falling and have no railing to hold on to... thats why people like Sher Malang you may have noticed are stuck on my ethnicity and keep trying to deny it... I will admit it... I am not afraid of them.
> 
> It doesn't hurt me what anyone says bro... i am indeed more or less raceless.  And it is not the end of the world... i don't need race to survive. But if I am saying I am Pashtun yes its also because I love Pashtuns but a message of unity too. Will I be greatly hurt when people say I am not one, while on other side so called Muhajirs say the same thing. No, i guess. But my intention is to make a difference... i feel I am not making one which worries me.
> 
> I just can't convince these people and I want that desperately.
> 
> Actually I got sick... ulcer and stuff, bacteria too, breathe very heavy-sometimes people find it amusing-I can't go out much like that. So I lost a lot of contacts but these were mostly social, guys and girls u chill with and stuff-also lost my position as leader of PNA. Now what I have is journalistic contacts... most haven't really helped in regard . There is however one guy who said he knows an agent and can entice him to read my manuscript. So waiting for some inside job for now.
> 
> As far as publishing the book is concerned I already found a publisher... but I am trying to ditch them and go for BIG fish... big fish here means randomhouse-penguin with 80% of all book sales globally. But I have to get through to them with an agent. In short its a long story and I will only bore you with the intricacies of book publishing which is extremely hard in this day and age. Authors literally have to beg to get their books signed. But if I sign with randomhouse a lot of issues get fixed and you might see me among Mohsin Hamid and Bina Shah.
> 
> Entirely true! Stay this optimistic. I was like you... and for godsake never take up journalism and rights issues as a career path... it will rot your brain and make you lose optimism. It happened to me.
> 
> We want to host a political party. Like 12,000 members is nothing right. Sunni Tehreek had like 700,000 when it made a debut into national politics. Nationalism is an infant ideology as yet.
> 
> True I wish to see the day when lines of race are blurred completely.
> 
> Yeah I could learn...
> 
> I agree.



@haviZsultan Hey bro !!! Good to see you on Jr.Think Tank post ... Congratulations mate !!! Forgive me for being off lately and replying to this post after so much time , I have been very busy with my University's work ... 

Well this is what I encouraged you for , writing big posts because these problems cant be discussed in a brief manner ... Really ? I can write a book ? On what bro ? 'Psychology of a Extremist ' perhaps  Well sure , if I ever get enough time and data on that kind ...

Maybe I am , I just dont know ... Well that hardly matters what I think , if the Mods think I am worthy , I will get that position ... No , I see you post regularly here of PDF and make highly detailed posts - not to mention you have the patience to answer every single person on the thread ... Well that is because that is what they were taught from childhood and they do not use their own critical thinking skills - like I said before they are " merely toeing other's line " and " jumping on the bandwagon without knowing anything " or with " no knowledge of the reality on ground " ... Well , at times many people get compromised emotionally , that isn't something unusual or wrong and doesn't make any difference to your extensively knowledgeable posts ... I know why sometimes Mods dont delete posts that actually contain strong language ... Well when you get that post of Think Tank or Moderator which you have now , you will be able to control it , trust me ... With great power comes great responsibility  Right ?

Well @Hyperion is very sensitive about talking about his tribe or anything related to it even remotely  so dont take it seriously ... He is Turkish-zai by the way  But there you are , A Jr.Think Tank , all friendship aside , I do not see any other person on the PDF deserving of that position more than you ... What would be the reason that an overwhelming majority of tribals they dont want to talk to outsiders about their life conditions , customs or the ground realities ? Any particular one you can tell me ? Or can I attribute it to the " conservativeness" somehow ?

No , I didn't say you were trying to divert any attention from that or deny it , I merely said that you put first priority on blurring ethnic lines because you have seen it destroy your country from childhood ... Well , its kind of different for me , I blame extremism more than ethnic politics for the woes of my country ... Why ? Because I have seen it happening more in my neighborhood ( around ) than ethnic hatred ... Of course there are many other issues like poverty , crime , corruption and mismanagement but I can trace them back to these two curses ! 

YES INDEED ! Let me tell you that the principal of my school Mr . Sebastian Khan ( I didn't know whether they were Christians in Khan at that time ) was a Retired General in Pakistan Army ... Now you hear all sort of negative and sometimes propaganda news how we mistreat minorities in this country but you dont see how we allow them to function independently in the country too ... Those Christians as I mentioned in my last post were educating people regardless of their race or religion at a much cheaper and affordable price than my own " Welfare " muslims , they have low cost health system , their own education boards and the quality of education believe me is way better than the most schools whose fees are " out of reach of even middle classes " ... I have said it before " There's no Ummah in existence at the moment " , there's only nationalism believe me ... A lot of people criticize Musharraf for his " enlightened moderation " and most importantly " Pakistan first " policy ... But take my word for it , that man was a realist and whatever he did based on these policies were the need of the hour and right to the core ! ... Yes nationalism and religion are separate , its the same reason that Turkey is an economic and to an extent a regional power whilst we are going through our darkest period in our history thanks to the " marriages of convenience " in the 80's ... 

Yeah , no authority , none whatsoever ! Who the hell on earth knows who were my ancestors ? Were they Iranians , Arabs , Byzantines , Greeks or what ? Whom in my family married whom at what time ? Does that matter ? Why should I care ? I am a Pakistani , it says on my passport and CNIC , the state of Pakistan bears my education expenses ... Not in today's world , sorry ... These despicable logic of superiority based on blood are a thing of past , nobody believes it in the civilized world ... I mean if a Pakistan gets a US nationality , is he a Muhajir ? NO , according to all Americans , he's american like them ! Thats one of the reason why specially West and other countries are prospering whilst we aren't ... 

Yeah ! Dont bother about it , mate ... 

No body asking you to interfere in anyone's views but the same is true vice versa , my friend ... Difference of opinion is a fundamental quality of human psyche , why is it so offensive to some people , I dont know ... So , it is the same again , if you aren't of my race , dont comment on it LOL ... What is with this absurdity ? I know people are sensitive about these matters , but is this the reason to stop " the freedom of speech " ? Let those who develop it a race war , realize the stupidity of their actions ... Do not stop anyone from commenting on anything , bro ... Only through understanding can there be recovery , remember ? About time we say goodbye to " In my ignorance lies my solace " thinking ... Now remember and I shall make it very clear that " criticism " and " insulting " are very different things and whilst I support the former , I strongly condemn the latter ...

I know why you comment so cautious , bro but think of it if we do not understand our history and the leaders , how can we rectify our mistakes ? Your opinions on Muhajirs and criticism are well known , despite you being one which makes you the bigger man !

Surprise ! I have too always criticized the same things of ANP ... Why get yourself buried in Afghanistan instead of your country , the curious mind asks ? Do you really care what people think ? When I started self-studying psychology , thats the first thing I learnt , do not give a damn what others have to say about you , and who's to say that it hasn't been successful ? No , someday you will , they do not stuff about them which you tell them ... Discrimination against anyone is condemnable , we all criticize it very openly ... But thats the ethnic issue again ! Its done by everyone against everyone , but you will find educated people bother less about these things , illiteracy is one of the reasons behind it , take my word for it ... 

I know the past of Afghans and I have a good enough idea of their future ... They have destroyed themselves fighting for 200 years continuously between themselves ... Give them the spanking they deserve , separatist do not merit any respect of ours ! I do not know the refugees bro seriously but I see them as hostiles due to their involvement in crimes and anti-Pakistan activities ... Yeah , just what the TNT said , the muslims of India are free to settle here , let there be no doubt about that ... We have gotten harsh because of the condition of our country , we aren't that bad , bro ...

Of course it isn't that easy to integrate into a completely new and different society with different ways of doing things ... But when they do , why label them as " outsider " , " alien " or worst of all " migrant " ? Rest assured , they are more patriotic than the most ! Has your mother got the citizenship ? The violence in Hyderabad right ? ... They will understand in due time , dont worry ... Everyone did ...

Yeah , mate ... Why do not we see our own mistakes and shortcomings ? We criticize and sometimes insult everyone yet we aren't ready to acknowledge our mistakes and blunders ... The " mode of denial " isn't helping anyone ... Condemn violence on others equally how you do to yourself when it happens to your race , basic message ... 

You are welcome , brother ... You just need someone to clarify you things when you are in some sort of subconsciousness turmoil ...

Well , yeah ok If I criticize my race but unacceptable if others do it ... Why ? This is another thing I find unacceptable myself , instead people turn to racism to quitten others basically " shooting the messenger " again ... Yeah , people of same race criticizing themselves is very hurtful for the ethnic extremist , I know that from a long time ... Thats great , I feel my " talk therapy " is working finally ...

Yes we are indifferent to races , we simply do not care ... If they are right , we join them in the bashing astonishing others ... Nobody needs race to survive , its not a matter of our existence ... I know very well why you adopted Pashtun race , for the unity of different races ... A noble cause , Secur would say ... No , you are making a great difference ... I didn't see anyone like that on this forum before , but still you cant convince everyone , not specially those who do not use their brain or do not feel the need to use it ...

Sad to hear it , bro ! I think you took all these things very seriously , I can confirm that sometimes psychological turmoils can manifest into physiological diseases , so try to be cool and composed while doing your job ... You will encounter many different sorts of people , do not let them get on your nerves ... Journalistic contacts are enough for now , focus on finishing the book and I think you will be able to regain your position some day ... 

I can sincerely advice you to get your book published first , the big fishes will automatically chase you themselves when they see the quality of your work ... One step at a time , I get it what do you mean by " big fishes " but please remember this is your novel ... A great deal of it will follow afterwards , attracting those big publishing companies ... So dont lose patience !

Well bro , I stay updated on the news and the happenings in my country and I am still this optimistic ...  But I will take your advice and never got that route ...

Well , yes 12,000 is nothing but the party is still in its infancy ... It will take sometime to rise like rest ... 

You will ! Wait and watch ... We need to focus on education foremost ...

Thanks ! Congratz again for becoming Jr. Think Tank ! I will answer more on your Split Discussion : Muhajir Identity thread when I get more time ...



Dance said:


> If you had read, you would have seen that Afghanistan started all this first when they beat up Pakistanis in Afghanistan.



Why do you bother answering the trolls , mate ? I am sure he didn't even read the news but how could he control his ungovernable impulse to troll ... Its generally alright when his country bullies other small neighbors ...

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## Pukhtoon

Secur said:


> @haviZsultan Hey bro !!! Good to see you on Jr.Think Tank post ... Congratulations mate !!! Forgive me for being off lately and replying to this post after so much time , I have been very busy with my University's work ...
> 
> Well this is what I encouraged you for , writing big posts because these problems cant be discussed in a brief manner ... Really ? I can write a book ? On what bro ? 'Psychology of a Extremist ' perhaps  Well sure , if I ever get enough time and data on that kind ...
> 
> Maybe I am , I just dont know ... Well that hardly matters what I think , if the Mods think I am worthy , I will get that position ... No , I see you post regularly here of PDF and make highly detailed posts - not to mention you have the patience to answer every single person on the thread ... Well that is because that is what they were taught from childhood and they do not use their own critical thinking skills - like I said before they are " merely toeing other's line " and " jumping on the bandwagon without knowing anything " or with " no knowledge of the reality on ground " ... Well , at times many people get compromised emotionally , that isn't something unusual or wrong and doesn't make any difference to your extensively knowledgeable posts ... I know why sometimes Mods dont delete posts that actually contain strong language ... Well when you get that post of Think Tank or Moderator which you have now , you will be able to control it , trust me ... With great power comes great responsibility  Right ?
> 
> Well @Hyperion is very sensitive about talking about his tribe or anything related to it even remotely  so dont take it seriously ... He is Turkish-zai by the way  But there you are , A Jr.Think Tank , all friendship aside , I do not see any other person on the PDF deserving of that position more than you ... What would be the reason that an overwhelming majority of tribals they dont want to talk to outsiders about their life conditions , customs or the ground realities ? Any particular one you can tell me ? Or can I attribute it to the " conservativeness" somehow ?
> 
> No , I didn't say you were trying to divert any attention from that or deny it , I merely said that you put first priority on blurring ethnic lines because you have seen it destroy your country from childhood ... Well , its kind of different for me , I blame extremism more than ethnic politics for the woes of my country ... Why ? Because I have seen it happening more in my neighborhood ( around ) than ethnic hatred ... Of course there are many other issues like poverty , crime , corruption and mismanagement but I can trace them back to these two curses !
> 
> YES INDEED ! Let me tell you that the principal of my school Mr . Sebastian Khan ( I didn't know whether they were Christians in Khan at that time ) was a Retired General in Pakistan Army ... Now you hear all sort of negative and sometimes propaganda news how we mistreat minorities in this country but you dont see how we allow them to function independently in the country too ... Those Christians as I mentioned in my last post were educating people regardless of their race or religion at a much cheaper and affordable price than my own " Welfare " muslims , they have low cost health system , their own education boards and the quality of education believe me is way better than the most schools whose fees are " out of reach of even middle classes " ... I have said it before " There's no Ummah in existence at the moment " , there's only nationalism believe me ... A lot of people criticize Musharraf for his " enlightened moderation " and most importantly " Pakistan first " policy ... But take my word for it , that man was a realist and whatever he did based on these policies were the need of the hour and right to the core ! ... Yes nationalism and religion are separate , its the same reason that Turkey is an economic and to an extent a regional power whilst we are going through our darkest period in our history thanks to the " marriages of convenience " in the 80's ...
> 
> Yeah , no authority , none whatsoever ! Who the hell on earth knows who were my ancestors ? Were they Iranians , Arabs , Byzantines , Greeks or what ? Whom in my family married whom at what time ? Does that matter ? Why should I care ? I am a Pakistani , it says on my passport and CNIC , the state of Pakistan bears my education expenses ... Not in today's world , sorry ... These despicable logic of superiority based on blood are a thing of past , nobody believes it in the civilized world ... I mean if a Pakistan gets a US nationality , is he a Muhajir ? NO , according to all Americans , he's american like them ! Thats one of the reason why specially West and other countries are prospering whilst we aren't ...
> 
> Yeah ! Dont bother about it , mate ...
> 
> No body asking you to interfere in anyone's views but the same is true vice versa , my friend ... Difference of opinion is a fundamental quality of human psyche , why is it so offensive to some people , I dont know ... So , it is the same again , if you aren't of my race , dont comment on it LOL ... What is with this absurdity ? I know people are sensitive about these matters , but is this the reason to stop " the freedom of speech " ? Let those who develop it a race war , realize the stupidity of their actions ... Do not stop anyone from commenting on anything , bro ... Only through understanding can there be recovery , remember ? About time we say goodbye to " In my ignorance lies my solace " thinking ... Now remember and I shall make it very clear that " criticism " and " insulting " are very different things and whilst I support the former , I strongly condemn the latter ...
> 
> I know why you comment so cautious , bro but think of it if we do not understand our history and the leaders , how can we rectify our mistakes ? Your opinions on Muhajirs and criticism are well known , despite you being one which makes you the bigger man !
> 
> Surprise ! I have too always criticized the same things of ANP ... Why get yourself buried in Afghanistan instead of your country , the curious mind asks ? Do you really care what people think ? When I started self-studying psychology , thats the first thing I learnt , do not give a damn what others have to say about you , and who's to say that it hasn't been successful ? No , someday you will , they do not stuff about them which you tell them ... Discrimination against anyone is condemnable , we all criticize it very openly ... But thats the ethnic issue again ! Its done by everyone against everyone , but you will find educated people bother less about these things , illiteracy is one of the reasons behind it , take my word for it ...
> 
> I know the past of Afghans and I have a good enough idea of their future ... They have destroyed themselves fighting for 200 years continuously between themselves ... Give them the spanking they deserve , separatist do not merit any respect of ours ! I do not know the refugees bro seriously but I see them as hostiles due to their involvement in crimes and anti-Pakistan activities ... Yeah , just what the TNT said , the muslims of India are free to settle here , let there be no doubt about that ... We have gotten harsh because of the condition of our country , we aren't that bad , bro ...
> 
> Of course it isn't that easy to integrate into a completely new and different society with different ways of doing things ... But when they do , why label them as " outsider " , " alien " or worst of all " migrant " ? Rest assured , they are more patriotic than the most ! Has your mother got the citizenship ? The violence in Hyderabad right ? ... They will understand in due time , dont worry ... Everyone did ...
> 
> Yeah , mate ... Why do not we see our own mistakes and shortcomings ? We criticize and sometimes insult everyone yet we aren't ready to acknowledge our mistakes and blunders ... The " mode of denial " isn't helping anyone ... Condemn violence on others equally how you do to yourself when it happens to your race , basic message ...
> 
> You are welcome , brother ... You just need someone to clarify you things when you are in some sort of subconsciousness turmoil ...
> 
> Well , yeah ok If I criticize my race but unacceptable if others do it ... Why ? This is another thing I find unacceptable myself , instead people turn to racism to quitten others basically " shooting the messenger " again ... Yeah , people of same race criticizing themselves is very hurtful for the ethnic extremist , I know that from a long time ... Thats great , I feel my " talk therapy " is working finally ...
> 
> Yes we are indifferent to races , we simply do not care ... If they are right , we join them in the bashing astonishing others ... Nobody needs race to survive , its not a matter of our existence ... I know very well why you adopted Pashtun race , for the unity of different races ... A noble cause , Secur would say ... No , you are making a great difference ... I didn't see anyone like that on this forum before , but still you cant convince everyone , not specially those who do not use their brain or do not feel the need to use it ...
> 
> Sad to hear it , bro ! I think you took all these things very seriously , I can confirm that sometimes psychological turmoils can manifest into physiological diseases , so try to be cool and composed while doing your job ... You will encounter many different sorts of people , do not let them get on your nerves ... Journalistic contacts are enough for now , focus on finishing the book and I think you will be able to regain your position some day ...
> 
> I can sincerely advice you to get your book published first , the big fishes will automatically chase you themselves when they see the quality of your work ... One step at a time , I get it what do you mean by " big fishes " but please remember this is your novel ... A great deal of it will follow afterwards , attracting those big publishing companies ... So dont lose patience !
> 
> Well bro , I stay updated on the news and the happenings in my country and I am still this optimistic ...  But I will take your advice and never got that route ...
> 
> Well , yes 12,000 is nothing but the party is still in its infancy ... It will take sometime to rise like rest ...
> 
> You will ! Wait and watch ... We need to focus on education foremost ...
> 
> Thanks ! Congratz again for becoming Jr. Think Tank ! I will answer more on your Split Discussion : Muhajir Identity thread when I get more time ...
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you bother answering the trolls , mate ? I am sure he didn't even read the news but how could he control his ungovernable impulse to troll ... Its generally alright when his country bullies other small neighbors ...




 WTH


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## KS

@Monkey D Luffy

There is definitely a startification among the Indian Muslims..The Syed, Pathans, Shaikhs, Siddiqis, Bukharis among the Sunnis are among the upper strata while the Ansaris, Dhobis etc constitute the Ajlafs..Tha stratification is based on whether they can claim foreign blood in them or not..In addition to this there is also another groups called Arzal who are the equivalent of untouchables (Pasmanda Muslims)...this is primarily in UP-Bihar belt and not seen generally elsewhere..

If you see any Muslim body like AIMPLB you would see it dominated by Ashrafs..

Read this good article Islam And Caste Inequality Among Indian Muslims By Yoginder Sikand

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## Secur

Pukhtoon said:


> WTH



What happened , mate ?


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

KS said:


> @Monkey D Luffy
> 
> There is definitely a startification among the Indian Muslims..The Syed, Pathans, Shaikhs, Siddiqis, Bukharis among the Sunnis are among the upper strata while the Ansaris, Dhobis etc constitute the Ajlafs..Tha stratification is based on whether they can claim foreign blood in them or not..In addition to this there is also another groups called Arzal who are the equivalent of untouchables (Pasmanda Muslims)...this is primarily in UP-Bihar belt and not seen generally elsewhere..
> 
> If you see any Muslim body like AIMPLB you would see it dominated by Ashrafs..
> 
> Read this good article Islam And Caste Inequality Among Indian Muslims By Yoginder Sikand



It explains every thing. After migration to pakistan, many mohajirs started new life by adopting fake caste, a dhobi or chamar started calling himself a syed, and no one in new country was there to verify their caste. Almost every one in karachi belongs now to ashraf castes, even though it is not possible. When some where in this forum i said that most of the indian muslims were converts from hindu low castes, many pakistanis especially those from karachi reacted angrily to it. This ashraf-ajlaf division also explain psychology of pakistani nation, they hate their hindu/hindi roots and connect themeselves to foriegn ancestry.

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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> It explains every thing. After migration to pakistan, many mohajirs started new life by adopting fake caste, a dhobi or chamar started calling himself a syed, and no one in new country was there to verify their caste. Almost every one in karachi belongs now to ashraf castes, even though it is not possible. When some where in this forum i said that most of the indian muslims were converts from hindu low castes, many pakistanis especially those from karachi reacted angrily to it. This ashraf-ajlaf division also explain psychology of pakistani nation, they hate their hindu/hindi roots and connect themeselves to foriegn ancestry.



Is it any surprise that Luffy finds common cause with one of the most vicious Indian trolls on this forum. @KS is basically trying to shift blame for the dalit he popped off last week-in his country it is very easy to frame a Muslim-a case to note would be the guy framed for the Jama Masjid case on false charges. Such cases go unreported in India as our past experience reveals anyway. They will find weak links like you wherever they can. 

Luffy your posts always have the ability to start an ethnic war. Some MQM member reads this his head will be set on fire by this post. This is the only purpose you are here for, creating an ethnic war. And still no apology for the lies you have been telling, durkhanay and adam khan, sherbano and yusaf khan... how many more God knows. Did you delete that incriminating post. Cannot find it this time. 

Personally I do not take too kindly about rubbish being posted our family to which I am still loyal to date but both you and MQM supporters are highly intolerant so a fight was inevitable in that case. 

Actually the decline we see today of came after 47... before this our family once believed in a higher set of ideals and our maternal grandfather has an entire shrine dedicated to him, we struggled for the Pakistan movement though this fact is being obscured because a Muslim in Lucknow stating any link to Pakistan is painting a target on his back-so they do not talk about the sacrifices of Ansaris. Also you did not confirm whether you got my reply or not about what you said on that closed thread. Anyway, just to clarify some points here. 

I am from the Firangi mahal house. Do you know what that is? It later went on to become a university of the time or a madrassa. The ansaris were actually royalty. Mullah Asad bin Qutab Shaheed (an Ansari and our ancestor) was at the court of Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. Another thing was we were granted huge amounts of land in Oudh and other places. Since Qutb was murdered Arungzeb rewarded his sons with huge tracts of land. In Lucknow we were given massive houses. Hasrat Mohani died in Firangi Mahal. Top scholars and theologians came from and studied in the school we established. 

I researched what you said objectively by the way and came upon some tensions in Bihar. Never heard of it personally nor do the relatives who live in Bihar every say anything about this. I think it was an isolated incident these people are actually using to shift a problem with their own system onto others. 

Also I will tell you, yes, while in Lucknow I did notice there was bias against Dalits. A cousin refused to take something from a dalit (do note if we were low caste we would have found common cause with him) but that is basically adopted from people like @KS which is proof that it was a mistake to stay under their Indian yoke. I mean what could he do? If he treated a dalit nicely other Indians could possibly call him things like Dalit-lover so he was forced to treat them the same way as everyone else. Its peer pressure that plays a part and he was surprised when I challenged him even though till then I hadn't developed the habit of eating from the same plate as my driver (no separate cutlery and plates for naukers) and inviting low paid people to our Gandhara Estate to sit with us in drawing rooms. 

My friend who often works for human rights spoke to Hindus in Pakistan. Their situation is terrible-particularly when bombs are going off minorities usually bear the brunt. But even one of the Hindus she did talk to had previously, in the past given an interview to a reporter from India in which he said that "Caste-system is the biggest problem for us. Get rid of it." 

I think the caste system if you want to call it that exists only between rich and poor and it is noticeable in all of Pakistan, perhaps all over the world. I have never heard of this between families of Muslims though. That article on Bihar too might have been twisted from a land dispute of a poor family with a rich one to one of Ansari vs Syed. 

By the way our Pir Roshan is said to be an Ansari? You like to insult your and my own people? I tell the MQM guys this and I am telling you this. No one is a pure Pashtun/or something else today... everyone has been part of dozens of migrations, in this world you never know who came from where and how he is presently settled in the region he is now. I hope you do know the legend about the Burkis having no Pashtun ancestry or heritage. Another thing is Abu Ayub Ansari from whom all Ansar are descended* is actually a friend of the Prophet and where he stayed for many days*. To please an Indian who probably divides his time between cutting down Muslims and Christians in Tamil Nadu while escaping TNLA rockets you are basically insulting a Prophets companion.

But I didn't expect less from you. Carry on. By the way topic was the revenge of Pakistani Pashtuns.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

@haviZsultan, stop being sentimental, you shouldnt hate sensible guy like KS just because he is an indian, come to your senses think tank.
The low caste ansaris have nothing to do with Ansars of medina. In Pakistani and India they are also called "julaha", decendants of hindu weaving caste.

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## KS

haviZsultan said:


> Is it any surprise that Luffy finds common cause with one of the most vicious Indian trolls on this forum. @KS is basically trying to shift blame for the dalit he popped off last week-in his country it is very easy to frame a Muslim-a case to note would be the guy framed for the Jama Masjid case on false charges. Such cases go unreported in India as our past experience reveals anyway. They will find weak links like you wherever they can. .



You need to consult a shrink at the earliest.. for the sheer insecurity you show.

What I told is the ground reality in India - especially in UP-Bihar belt.

Now I am starting to doubt about your entire Lucknow house claim given your denial about the existence of Ashraj-Ajlaf divide or that of the pasmanda muslims.

This is for you



> Allahpur, which is dominated by Ansaris (considered OBC), has been facing oppression from upper-caste Syeds and Pathans. Said Mustafa Ansari: &#8220;It all started in April 2004 when upper-caste Syeds and Pathans beat up a groom and some members of a wedding party because the groom who was going to marry an Ansari girl dared to travel in a Maruti car and cross houses of the Syeds.&#8221; He described conflicts between Syeds and Ansaris over using the common village road in 2005.



Muslim inter-caste tension surfaces in Bihar - Indian Express

Hundreds of inter-caste feuds between Muslims happen paricularly in UP-Bihar belt..but only some are actually reported..this is one such. Now dont deny this too.

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## Gandhi G in da house

Did i hear this right ? A muhajir from U.P trying to become Pashtun ? 

Other Muhajirs must be so embarassed.


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## haviZsultan

Secur said:


> @haviZsultan Hey bro !!! Good to see you on Jr.Think Tank post ... Congratulations mate !!! Forgive me for being off lately and replying to this post after so much time , I have been very busy with my University's work ...



No issue. University is first. Trust me. I kept fooling around and was too dedicated to Pakistan and paid the price back there. Imagine a person after every 6 months going back to Pakistan from Canada happily skipping semesters along the way. 



> Well this is what I encouraged you for , writing big posts because these problems cant be discussed in a brief manner ... Really ? I can write a book ? On what bro ? 'Psychology of a Extremist ' perhaps Well sure , if I ever get enough time and data on that kind ...



Actually being on a forum has always affected my book writing adversely. Personally I am not sure if there is more culture or tradition I should add in it. Like you know Pashtun legends like Adam Khan and Durkhunai, Suris, Lodhis, Durannis, have enough about Pir Roshan, Khattak and others. Truly Pashtun history very rich and beautiful. Wanted to include all that but don't know if I should add more or leave some history for the next book-already a lot there anyway.


> Maybe I am , I just dont know ... Well that hardly matters what I think , if the Mods think I am worthy , I will get that position ... No , I see you post regularly here of PDF and make highly detailed posts - not to mention you have the patience to answer every single person on the thread ...



Actually that has to do with being hard-headed and stubborn. I used to be called that because sometimes something came over me and I wouldn't budge. Still happens. 



> Well that is because that is what they were taught from childhood and they do not use their own critical thinking skills - like I said before they are " merely toeing other's line " and " jumping on the bandwagon without knowing anything " or with " no knowledge of the reality on ground " ... Well , at times many people get compromised emotionally , that isn't something unusual or wrong and doesn't make any difference to your extensively knowledgeable posts ... I know why sometimes Mods dont delete posts that actually contain strong language ... Well when you get that post of Think Tank or Moderator which you have now , you will be able to control it , trust me ... *With great power comes great responsibility*  Right ?



True. But I am highly emotional... its a thing from birth. I get angry and I feel the need to say something. Especially posts that divide my country-it took hours and hours for others to teach me not to take offense at things said about Pakistan. Particularly what worries me is the talk of division from Pakistan by Pakistanis. It just hurts because this country is my blood. 

Yeah... that bold part was in Spiderman.

Well @Hyperion is very sensitive about talking about his tribe or anything related to it even remotely so dont take it seriously ... He is Turkish-zai by the way But there you are , A Jr.Think Tank , all friendship aside , I do not see any other person on the PDF deserving of that position more than you ... What would be the reason that an overwhelming majority of tribals they dont want to talk to outsiders about their life conditions , customs or the ground realities ? Any particular one you can tell me ? Or can I attribute it to the " conservativeness" somehow ?[/QUOTE]

He has stopped commenting almost completely outside the Naswar thread. The only person who can make him comment on a topic is @Armstrong. 

Personally Secur you should have been here first, in the think tank. I just came suddenly. Before that I was very inactive. Also I said it in the PM to Webbie that you were more deserving. I mentioned it once on Naswar Corner and he said ab kuch karna parey ga.  Offer might come @Secur. I thought it would for you. Hyperion I think doesn't want Jr think tank position though he too was a good option almost solely because he is from the region. 

Actually as far as the tribals not talking to anyone-it has been a huge issue for my book and for a long time I had lots of trouble finding a Mahsud (its a tribe name) to answer some questions. It has nothing to do with being conservative. Pashtuns people from the plains usually meet are city Pashtuns, some may be a little conservative but most I have met are just like anyone else. Dating takes places in Peshawar too. Last I heard there was a nightclub too. Perhaps thats why Afghan nationals abused Peshawar so much on other forum. 

Basically the interview doesn't have to be like face to face. Lots of people think that but we journalists are very lazy. We don't like to go to people unless they are very famous personalities. We just talk on the phone or ask some questions over e-mail to which the respondent replies. I think I failed to mention that to @Hyperion. Hope he reconsiders. In any case he was smart enough to know that anyway-the logistics may be difficult with me in Pakistan and him in Turkey.

*Reason 1) *I can attribute it to the fact that they feel they are in the spotlight and don't really understand what to do when faced with questions that may be uncomfortable and have uncomfortable replies. See the thing is the war is going on in their regions. They see a lot of stuff that is, that might not be positively seen by others when they say it so I have to basically transfer confidence. For example if they say army killed 12 civilians by bombing a market or mention the at least 3 times the market in Makeen has been razed or bombed by jets, or the curfews it causes suspicion. When every attack is traced to Waziristan you know makes them wary and some feel they can't openly say what they want or feel or just explain their plight. I know all of these things. War is a terrible business and wrongs have taken place but we don't see any wrongs because our cities are relatively safer but for them it is very hard what is currently happening. 

For example imagine an undeclared curfew from 6 pm to 9 am in Karachi (Its happened in Mingauara <its in Swat> for years before it was cleared) after a bomb blast. You just got off work as a small-time laborer and are dawdling about failing to notice the streets seem deserted. When you do notice now troops start firing at you suspecting you are a taliban fighter with your beard and pagree, you rush back home and barricade up your house-your wife comes and after worrying over you says there is no flour in the house but all shops are closed on account of curfew-there is one shopkeeper who is a daring old fellow who keeps his shop open despite the orders otherwise he knows his business will close-but how to go out? Your child starts bawling out of hunger... what to do? Then there are bombings, firefights in the nearby localities, attacks by militants. Firing in the street, land occupied by militants and sometimes the army, warehouses looting, mines taken over, derelict school buildings turned into garrisons to maintain the increasing number of soldiers. 

Its not easy living in a war zone. But now when a journalist contacts you and says-tell me about everything the Yousafzai of Mingora, Wazir of Wana and Mahseed of Ladha each has strong emotions, is hurt and angry and information which if he gives he may be seen as a complainer and as a result anti-pakistani and combined with reason 2... well. 

*Reason 2) *Another reason would be they do not trust me or know me enough so they suspect me, am I an ISI/CIA informer, a militant, what are my purposes? Do I want to show tribal people in negative or positive light... lots of questions come to mind. Its strange enough for me to be a wannabe Pashtun and its also strange for anyone from Karachi to know so much about that region, history, tribes and famous personalities. 

To be truthful being a Nationalist can be a big hassle as I saw in Canada too-you become too active politically, all ends there, allegations fly, people attack you for your views and in north america anyone who does too much research on these regions or in my case on terror suspects who I believe may have been framed on false charges within those countries-time to pay the price. Then people who are too political look down upon us. 



> No , I didn't say you were trying to divert any attention from that or deny it , I merely said that you put first priority on blurring ethnic lines because you have seen it destroy your country from childhood ... Well , its kind of different for me , I blame extremism more than ethnic politics for the woes of my country ... Why ? Because I have seen it happening more in my neighborhood ( around ) than ethnic hatred ... Of course there are many other issues like poverty , crime , corruption and mismanagement but I can trace them back to these two curses !



Oh sorry... sometimes my posts come out like I am hostile. I mistype and the posts have no structure. I didn't mean to say anything rude or anything. 

I have seen religious people. I like my personal freedom and the thing with the religious members in our family is they want to impose their religion. That is annoying. But have never witnessed support to the Taliban. Some people make a distinction between Afghan and Pakistani Taliban but are shouted down-though for defence reasons the distinction is useful, primarily for deciding which groups we must tackle first and which are secondary... only am talking about how taliban in afghanistan are painted as angels sometimes. Probably one of the reasons these people hate us so much.


> YES INDEED ! Let me tell you that the principal of my school Mr . Sebastian Khan ( I didn't know whether they were Christians in Khan at that time ) was a Retired General in Pakistan Army ... Now you hear all sort of negative and sometimes propaganda news how we mistreat minorities in this country but you dont see how we allow them to function independently in the country too ... Those Christians as I mentioned in my last post were educating people regardless of their race or religion at a much cheaper and affordable price than my own " Welfare " muslims , they have low cost health system , their own education boards and the quality of education believe me is way better than the most schools whose fees are " out of reach of even middle classes " ... I have said it before " There's no Ummah in existence at the moment " , there's only nationalism believe me ... A lot of people criticize Musharraf for his " enlightened moderation " and most importantly " Pakistan first " policy ...



Christians had a huge part. Even Hindus. Its so sad no one even heard of people like Shri Jogindar Nath Mandal. 

Yeah, I agree. A lot of people support Musharraf. Even my family. Personally I don't anymore particularly due to NRO and some other things, also if he had just kept power for 6 months or 1 year and brought maybe clean, new parties perhaps a lot could change. Then Bhutto escaped and Nawaz was released on insistence from Saudi instead of fair investigation into the assets of both.

Enlightened moderation was good and never say it impose it either. Me, I believe in secularism but I will never try to impose it... I leave it as an idea and reveal its possible benefits, then let the people who read my articles on it decide. Lets leave that debate. 



> But take my word for it , that man was a realist and whatever he did based on these policies were the need of the hour and right to the core ! ... *Yes nationalism and religion are separate* , its the same reason that Turkey is an economic and to an extent a regional power whilst we are going through our darkest period in our history thanks to the " marriages of convenience " in the 80's ...



Yeah. Linking nationalism with religion or ethnicity is a major issue. 



> Yeah , no authority , none whatsoever ! Who the hell on earth knows who were my ancestors ? Were they Iranians , Arabs , Byzantines , Greeks or what ? Whom in my family married whom at what time ? Does that matter ? Why should I care ? I am a Pakistani , it says on my passport and CNIC , the state of Pakistan bears my education expenses ... Not in today's world , sorry ... These despicable logic of superiority based on blood are a thing of past , nobody believes it in the civilized world ... I mean if a Pakistan gets a US nationality , is he a Muhajir ? NO , according to all Americans , he's american like them ! Thats one of the reason why specially West and other countries are prospering whilst we aren't ...



We take these things too seriously. It would be insightful what you think about the posts on the other thread Secur. Particularly about the next step or merger with other ethnic groups. Its a very difficult process and perhaps even hard for people to think about because its basically something, an identity we have had for years. Flinging it away like old clothes a difficult business. 

Do check out that long-boring post about the solutions I suggested. 1) Merger and 2) reinforce original identity like Lucknowi, Bihari or other. 



> Yeah ! Dont bother about it , mate ...
> 
> No body asking you to interfere in anyone's views but the same is true vice versa , my friend ... Difference of opinion is a fundamental quality of human psyche , why is it so offensive to some people , I dont know ... So , it is the same again , if you aren't of my race , dont comment on it LOL ... What is with this absurdity ? I know people are sensitive about these matters , but is this the reason to stop " the freedom of speech " ? Let those who develop it a race war , realize the stupidity of their actions ... Do not stop anyone from commenting on anything , bro ... Only through understanding can there be recovery , remember ? About time we say goodbye to " In my ignorance lies my solace " thinking ... Now remember and I shall make it very clear that " criticism " and " insulting " are very different things and whilst I support the former , I strongly condemn the latter ...



I believe you are absolutely right... but I have almost always noticed a kind of sensitivity. For example on request on that thread I called Rafay to clarify a point to American Pakistani and darkinsky that its our family and others like ours that want to maintain muhajir identity-not the other way around. In reality its a very critical look by someone of muhajir birth and it becomes really hard for them to deny it. He posted something and backed me... basically thats all he did and state the same exact points I did. But when he said all Muhajirs should consider themselves Sindhis (I said we should merge too) adding that he accept's them as Sindhis a person even attacked him. 

So the thing is I have to take care of sensitivities around certain topics otherwise I may end up doing the exact opposite of what I intend which is to increase ethnic harmony. 



> I know why you comment so cautious , bro but think of it if we do not understand our history and the leaders , how can we rectify our mistakes ? Your opinions on Muhajirs and criticism are well known , despite you being one which makes you the bigger man !






> Surprise ! I have too always criticized the same things of ANP ... Why get yourself buried in Afghanistan instead of your country , the curious mind asks ? Do you really care what people think ? When I started self-studying psychology , thats the first thing I learnt , do not give a damn what others have to say about you , and who's to say that it hasn't been successful ? No , someday you will , they do not stuff about them which you tell them ... Discrimination against anyone is condemnable , we all criticize it very openly ... But thats the ethnic issue again ! Its done by everyone against everyone , but you will find educated people bother less about these things , illiteracy is one of the reasons behind it , take my word for it ...



I agree. However their narrative has to be countered. If we fail to do this they win the propaganda war. I agree. Illiterate people and villagers tend to take ethnicity much more seriously by the way. 



> I know the past of Afghans and I have a good enough idea of their future ... They have destroyed themselves fighting for 200 years continuously between themselves ... Give them the spanking they deserve , separatist do not merit any respect of ours ! I do not know the refugees bro seriously but I see them as hostiles due to their involvement in crimes and anti-Pakistan activities ... Yeah , just what the TNT said , the muslims of India are free to settle here , let there be no doubt about that ... We have gotten harsh because of the condition of our country , we aren't that bad , bro ...



I agree. I remember a Pakistani friend telling me his dad had been offered citizenship of DROC (Zaire) where he lived previously. It is another thing that he rejected it but DROC is a country with one of the lowest GDP per capita's ($300) and the poorest of the poorest. Its in Africa and most of us Pakistanis haven't even heard of it but you know proves a point. We don't need to take an example from the Arabs in this regard. They are as bad when it comes to citizenship. Loyalty eventually develops with citizenship. There is a poster kingmamba, pakistani background, US citizen... i criticized US policy and he was at my neck in seconds. It can be done-middle classes and educated people should be accepted with open arms.



> Of course it isn't that easy to integrate into a completely new and different society with different ways of doing things ... But when they do , why label them as " outsider " , " alien " or worst of all " migrant " ? Rest assured , they are more patriotic than the most ! Has your mother got the citizenship ? The violence in Hyderabad right ? ... They will understand in due time , dont worry ... Everyone did ...



My mother got it, that wasn't as big an issue, she is from Lucknow like my father but ancestral towns are just different, my posts I know are a little unstructured at times-sorry. Hyderabad link is stronger with my fathers side as some relatives settled there but some from my mothers side as well-mostly because my fathers family and mothers family have ancient tradition of marrying with each other. The real issue was later with people we moved. 2003-4 or close. Also I worked for sufferers witness which moved some families, mostly from Kashmir but there were other cases too. It was a Pakistani charity with lots of Nationalist influences. 



> Yeah , mate ... Why do not we see our own mistakes and shortcomings ? We criticize and sometimes insult everyone yet we aren't ready to acknowledge our mistakes and blunders ... The " mode of denial " isn't helping anyone ... Condemn violence on others equally how you do to yourself when it happens to your race , basic message ...



True. 



> You are welcome , brother ... You just need someone to clarify you things when you are in some sort of subconsciousness turmoil ...



And my posts too... they look like a jumbled mess at times. 



> Well , yeah ok If I criticize my race but unacceptable if others do it ... Why ? This is another thing I find unacceptable myself , instead people turn to racism to quitten others basically " shooting the messenger " again ... Yeah , people of same race criticizing themselves is very hurtful for the ethnic extremist , I know that from a long time ... Thats great , I feel my " talk therapy " is working finally ...



Yeah. And changes can be seen. I used to see darkinsky's posts-man he couldn't live without insulting a Punjabi, Sindhi or Pashtun. Sometimes I really feel things are working. But theres always something in these guys stopping them from you know crossing that bridge completely. Luffy tones down... then he comes back again with new racism. Probably someone will report his previous post actually (no 386)... it is insulting to Pakistan and has the potential to start an ugly race war. He is trying to provoke me and knows now I can't say the things I used to.  Fun times for him. 



> Yes we are indifferent to races , we simply do not care ... If they are right , we join them in the bashing astonishing others ... Nobody needs race to survive , its not a matter of our existence ... *I know very well why you adopted Pashtun race , for the unity of different races* ... A noble cause , Secur would say ... No , you are making a great difference ... I didn't see anyone like that on this forum before , but still you cant convince everyone , not specially those who do not use their brain or do not feel the need to use it ...



Yeah... I wouldn't say all this research, all this study didn't have no effect. Initially it was love for Pashtuns which grew from an initial attraction which itself developed out of biases I saw, alienation with family and the realization that despite my and our organizations attempts to do away with race completely we could do nothing-they existed so by changing race I wasn't really being anti-Pakistani or taking part in the issues. After studying so much, I think anyone in my place might have been affected. 

Later I understood that perhaps i could be a harbinger of change in this country with such actions... because how come when a Punjabi or Sindhi is insulted his Baloch or "Urdu speaking" countryman does not feel insulted or vice versa? They are our people-fellow Pakistanis. We are to protect all of them. They see me defending them... the ethnic boundaries disappear, maybe they do the same thing. Now it has become much more important. This cause of ethnic unity led me on when those people on the other forum abused me very badly. I seriously felt very angry... I came hoping to get support from them and acceptance. Those guys are really crazy. Hate is a strong term but I may be somewhere close to it in my feelings for Afghanistan. 

Anyway in short there are many, many reasons for this indentity change even fascination with the past-the possible princess our forefathers married who happened to be of Pashtun descent which is still an unsolvable mystery. This adopting another identity is also a very novel approach to ending the ethnic issue. By trying to impose a Nationalist identity we have constantly been trying to obfuscate an existing reality. For example if a Nationalist party had come forward and changed name of NWFP to Pakhunkhwa there would be no support for ANP. Everyone knows their history anyway. But we lack that mentality-we couldn't actually see each province had a name and a single province stood out (even now its a case with FATA)... instead we tried to say no ethnic names but then Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and Kashmir all have them. So on part of us Nationalists there has always been a lack of understanding or unwillingness to understand these intricacies. 



> Sad to hear it , bro ! I think you took all these things very seriously , I can confirm that sometimes psychological turmoils can manifest into physiological diseases , so try to be cool and composed while doing your job ... You will encounter many different sorts of people , do not let them get on your nerves ... Journalistic contacts are enough for now , focus on finishing the book and I think you will be able to regain your position some day ...



Yeah. I hope so. 



> I can sincerely advice you to get your book published first , the big fishes will automatically chase you themselves when they see the quality of your work ... One step at a time , I get it what do you mean by " big fishes " but please remember this is your novel ... A great deal of it will follow afterwards , attracting those big publishing companies ... So dont lose patience !



The thing is I don't want just any publisher. I want the book to be sell... initially when I started it I didn't but am in difficult condition now. My parents even don't think too highly of me. Lots of issues. Its necessary it goes with some company that is extremely strong. 



> Well bro , I stay updated on the news and the happenings in my country and I am still this optimistic ...  But I will take your advice and never got that route ...



Yeah. And the thing is they always tell us you gotta be impartial... when you try to be a journalist leave your Nationalism behind. That is very annoying. 



> Well , yes 12,000 is nothing but the party is still in its infancy ... It will take sometime to rise like rest ...



Guess so... party is in our hearts. Not launched. It exists as basically a movement of a number of Nationalist organizations like Watan Parast Mahaz or Pakistan Nationalist Party... various other groups too. 

You will ! Wait and watch ... We need to focus on education foremost ...



> Thanks ! Congratz again for becoming Jr. Think Tank ! I will answer more on your Split Discussion : Muhajir Identity thread when I get more time ...



Thank you very much. You should have been here first secur. 

I will make the request to Webbie... not very quickly though because I already asked once and me a new think tank so he may go like, you just came and already making demands.


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## gangsta_rap

nick_indian said:


> Did i hear this right ? A muhajir from U.P trying to become Pashtun ?



Ugh,here we go again.......Indians can't give you a break regarding this can they, @haviZsultan
@nick_indian , no its not embarassing at all.Its one of those things that shouldve been done longo ago.The muhajir identity was never suppoesd to manifest itself in the first place.

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## Areesh

Lol castes in Muslims and Islam. Even being a Muslims myself I don't know about. 

And a Hindu is lecturing us about it. This deserves a double

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## KS

Areesh said:


> Lol castes in Muslims and Islam. Even being a Muslims myself I don't know about.
> 
> And a Hindu is lecturing us about it. This deserves a double



Mian Mustafa ansari would certainly disagree with you.



> Allahpur, which is dominated by Ansaris (considered OBC), has been facing oppression from upper-caste Syeds and Pathans. Said Mustafa Ansari: &#8220;It all started in April 2004 when upper-caste Syeds and Pathans beat up a groom and some members of a wedding party because the groom who was going to marry an Ansari girl dared to travel in a Maruti car and cross houses of the Syeds.&#8221; He described conflicts between Syeds and Ansaris over using the common village road in 2005.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/afghan...s-out-pak-afghan-border-20.html#ixzz2I13w6XCA


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## Areesh

KS said:


> Mian Mustafa ansari would certainly disagree with you.



Lol I am an ansari myself and I never heard that we were being oppressed by some upper castes. If some Muslims in India behave stupid it doesn't mean that it is Islam that has castes or propagate castes. 

And leave all these Mian Mustafa Ansari's aside. Because this is what the best person who ever walked on this planet said about brotherhood and equality among Muslims.



> All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.



Source: The Last Sermon

After this I don't think I need much to prove.


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## bronxbull

haviZsultan said:


> Is it any surprise that Luffy finds common cause with one of the most vicious Indian trolls on this forum. @KS is basically trying to shift blame for the dalit he popped off last week-in his country it is very easy to frame a Muslim-a case to note would be the guy framed for the Jama Masjid case on false charges. Such cases go unreported in India as our past experience reveals anyway. They will find weak links like you wherever they can.
> 
> Luffy your posts always have the ability to start an ethnic war. Some MQM member reads this his head will be set on fire by this post. This is the only purpose you are here for, creating an ethnic war. And still no apology for the lies you have been telling, durkhanay and adam khan, sherbano and yusaf khan... how many more God knows. Did you delete that incriminating post. Cannot find it this time.
> 
> Personally I do not take too kindly about rubbish being posted our family to which I am still loyal to date but both you and MQM supporters are highly intolerant so a fight was inevitable in that case.
> 
> Actually the decline we see today of came after 47... before this our family once believed in a higher set of ideals and our maternal grandfather has an entire shrine dedicated to him, we struggled for the Pakistan movement though this fact is being obscured because a Muslim in Lucknow stating any link to Pakistan is painting a target on his back-so they do not talk about the sacrifices of Ansaris. Also you did not confirm whether you got my reply or not about what you said on that closed thread. Anyway, just to clarify some points here.
> 
> I am from the Firangi mahal house. Do you know what that is? It later went on to become a university of the time or a madrassa. The ansaris were actually royalty. Mullah Asad bin Qutab Shaheed (an Ansari and our ancestor) was at the court of Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. Another thing was we were granted huge amounts of land in Oudh and other places. Since Qutb was murdered Arungzeb rewarded his sons with huge tracts of land. In Lucknow we were given massive houses. Hasrat Mohani died in Firangi Mahal. Top scholars and theologians came from and studied in the school we established.
> 
> I researched what you said objectively by the way and came upon some tensions in Bihar. Never heard of it personally nor do the relatives who live in Bihar every say anything about this. I think it was an isolated incident these people are actually using to shift a problem with their own system onto others.
> 
> Also I will tell you, yes, while in Lucknow I did notice there was bias against Dalits. A cousin refused to take something from a dalit (do note if we were low caste we would have found common cause with him) but that is basically adopted from people like @KS which is proof that it was a mistake to stay under their Indian yoke. I mean what could he do? If he treated a dalit nicely other Indians could possibly call him things like Dalit-lover so he was forced to treat them the same way as everyone else. Its peer pressure that plays a part and he was surprised when I challenged him even though till then I hadn't developed the habit of eating from the same plate as my driver (no separate cutlery and plates for naukers) and inviting low paid people to our Gandhara Estate to sit with us in drawing rooms.
> 
> My friend who often works for human rights spoke to Hindus in Pakistan. Their situation is terrible-particularly when bombs are going off minorities usually bear the brunt. But even one of the Hindus she did talk to had previously, in the past given an interview to a reporter from India in which he said that "Caste-system is the biggest problem for us. Get rid of it."
> 
> I think the caste system if you want to call it that exists only between rich and poor and it is noticeable in all of Pakistan, perhaps all over the world. I have never heard of this between families of Muslims though. That article on Bihar too might have been twisted from a land dispute of a poor family with a rich one to one of Ansari vs Syed.
> 
> By the way our Pir Roshan is said to be an Ansari? You like to insult your and my own people? I tell the MQM guys this and I am telling you this. No one is a pure Pashtun/or something else today... everyone has been part of dozens of migrations, in this world you never know who came from where and how he is presently settled in the region he is now. I hope you do know the legend about the Burkis having no Pashtun ancestry or heritage. Another thing is Abu Ayub Ansari from whom all Ansar are descended* is actually a friend of the Prophet and where he stayed for many days*. To please an Indian who probably divides his time between cutting down Muslims and Christians in Tamil Nadu while escaping TNLA rockets you are basically insulting a Prophets companion.
> 
> But I didn't expect less from you. Carry on. By the way topic was the revenge of Pakistani Pashtuns.



Dont do dramabaazi here and dont get hurt because someone called you a low caste convert.

It shouldn't matter to you.



GIANTsasquatch said:


> Ugh,here we go again.......Indians can't give you a break regarding this can they, @haviZsultan
> @nick_indian , no its not embarassing at all.Its one of those things that shouldve been done longo ago.The muhajir identity was never suppoesd to manifest itself in the first place.



yeah ok,muhajjir identity is not needed but how can one call himself a pashtun?

Is it like pick and choose?

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Areesh said:


> Lol I am an ansari myself and I never heard that we were being oppressed by some upper castes. If some Muslims in India behave stupid it doesn't mean that it is Islam that has castes or propagate castes.
> 
> And leave all these Mian Mustafa Ansari's aside. Because this is what the best person who ever walked on this planet said about brotherhood and equality among Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: The Last Sermon
> 
> After this I don't think I need much to prove.



I pity low caste muslims of subcontinent, they converted to islam in the hope of escaping caste system, as islam preaches equality. But the ruling elite of muslims still placed themeselves above the local converts. A syed is supposed to be equal to muslim julaha or chamar, but he arrogantly places himself above all muslims of subcontinent, his behaviour is totally unislamic.

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## Areesh

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I pity low caste muslims of subcontinent, they converted to islam in the hope of escaping caste system, as islam preaches equality. But the ruling elite of muslims still placed themeselves above the local converts. A syed is supposed to be equal to muslim julaha or chamar, but he arrogantly places himself above all muslims of subcontinent, his behaviour is totally unislamic.



I pity on you for being delusional and believing that there is something like low caste muslims. 

Talking about about so called low caste Muslim converts, one of them founded this country(Jinnah) and another one(Musharraf) ruled this country for almost ten years and was the most powerful person of his time. Dozens or even hundreds of them are now present in different fields and departments of this country. There might be a few incidents here and there. Doesn't prove that castes exist in Muslims or it is an important issue even worth to be discussed.

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## Gandhi G in da house

GIANTsasquatch said:


> Ugh,here we go again.......Indians can't give you a break regarding this can they, @haviZsultan
> @nick_indian , no its not embarassing at all.Its one of those things that shouldve been done longo ago.The muhajir identity was never suppoesd to manifest itself in the first place.



It's shameful to be honest. And sad.


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## somebozo

May be time for Pashtuns from both side to unite. It benefits them as they get access to sea port and trade will improve the economy, Afghanistan as a country would continue to function independently but great co-operation with benefit both.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Lol *I am an ansari myself* and I never heard that we were being oppressed by some upper castes..



Now I understand why you are getting worked up over this. So I will not further pess upon this as it might hurt your caste sensitivities.

And there are many things about India that you have never heard. Does not mean they are not true.

As for the Last sermon or whatever, quran also supposedly says dont kill innocent people. Duh.

As for the news itself, I did not invent it. It is reported in Indian Express, one of the most credible papers. So you can write your snide comments to the Editor of that.



Areesh said:


> Talking about about so called low caste Muslim converts, one of them founded this country(Jinnah) and another one(Musharraf) ruled this country for almost ten years and was the most powerful person of his time.



Jinnah saab was no low caste..He was a Khoja who are great merchants and Musharraf was a Syed..so they are considered Ashrafs.


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## Areesh

KS said:


> Now I understand why you are getting worked up over this. So I will not further pess upon this as it might hurt your caste sensitivities.
> 
> And there are many things about India that you have never heard. Does not mean they are not true.
> 
> As for the Last sermon or whatever, quran also supposedly says dont kill innocent people. Duh.
> 
> As for the news itself, I did not invent it. It is reported in Indian Express, one of the most credible papers. So you can write your snide comments to the Editor of that.



Nothing worked up dear. I don't even think about such lame issues. After all my religion has nothing to do with castes. Just sharing the truth about my religion since you were fed lies by those Khaki chaddi wearing losers of RSS all this time. There are no castes in Islam and the last sermon confirms it. If you have something from Quran or Holy Prophet(SAW) t oprove your point, then do it. It is just your countrymen who are playing stupid. Islam has nothing to do with it. Islam doesn't allow killing innocents and doesn't propagate something like castes. Just like a Hindu r@pist in Dehli doesn't mean it is Hinduism which allows its followers to r@pe and molest women. 



> Jinnah saab was no low caste..He was a Khoja who are great merchants and Musharraf was a Syed..so they are considered Ashrafs.



They were Muhajirs and had more power and authority than any Indian president. Their goes you propaganda about Muhajirs and all that.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Nothing worked up dear. I don't even think about such lame issues. After all my religion has nothing to do with castes. Just sharing the truth about my religion since you were fed lies by those Khaki chaddi wearing losers of RSS all this time. There are no castes in Islam and the last sermon confirms it. If you have something from Quran or Holy Prophet(SAW) t oprove your point, then do it. It is just your countrymen who are playing stupid. Islam has nothing to do with it. Islam doesn't allow killing innocents and doesn't propagate something like castes. Just like a Hindu r@pist in Dehli doesn't mean it is Hinduism which allows its followers to r@pe and molest women.



Neither Indian Express nor Mian Mustafa Ansari who were bearing the brunt of upper caste Syeds are RSS wallahs. BTW I said this is primarily a Hindi belt phenomenon and you are from Hyderabad area I assume. So naturally you would not be knowing about it.

More for your reading

The Problem of Caste among Indian Muslims | Indian Muslims

http://hsa.sagepub.com/content/4/2/129.full.pdf

Allahpur: Low Caste Muslims | Pulitzer Center

Muslim Castes and Communities of India | IndianMuslimObserver.com

Ansaris are considered Ajlafs (low-caste) by the Ashrafs (Syeds, Pathans, Bukharis etc) whether you like or not.

My refernce to Musharraf and Jinnah was because you mentioned both and both were Ashrafs.


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## Areesh

KS said:


> Neither Indian Express nor Mian Mustafa Ansari who were bearing the brunt of upper caste Syeds are RSS wallahs. BTW I said this is primarily a Hindi belt phenomenon and you are from Hyderabad area I assume. So naturally you would not be knowing about it.
> 
> More for your reading
> 
> The Problem of Caste among Indian Muslims | Indian Muslims
> 
> http://hsa.sagepub.com/content/4/2/129.full.pdf
> 
> Allahpur: Low Caste Muslims | Pulitzer Center
> 
> Muslim Castes and Communities of India | IndianMuslimObserver.com
> 
> Ansaris are considered Ajlafs (low-caste) by the Ashrafs (Syeds, Pathans, Bukharis etc) whether you like or not.
> 
> My refernce to Musharraf and Jinnah was because you mentioned both and both were Ashrafs.



All the links that you have presented say the same thing that I said earlier. As I said it is the problem of Muslims of India. Indian muslims are the ones who are behaving stupid and unislamic. May be all this sh!t has came from the hindu majority they live with. After all it is hinduism which has this menace of castes. And Indian muslims are not the religion of Islam. In fact this shows that Indian muslims now need to get a few classes about fundamentals of Islam.



> Ansaris are considered Ajlafs (low-caste) by the Ashrafs (Syeds, Pathans, Bukharis etc) whether you like or not.



Show it from Quran and Hadith. Indian express and that Mian Muzaffar are not an authority in Islam.



> My refernce to Musharraf and Jinnah was because you mentioned both and both were Ashrafs.



Still they were Muhajirs. That's why I presented it as an example.

PS: Shaukat Aziz was the PM of Musharraf. He was from Bihar. Don't know whether he belonged to so called high caste of Muslims but still he was a Mohajir and the PM of Pakistan.

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## KS

Areesh said:


> All the links that you have presented say the same thing that I said earlier. As I said it is the problem of Muslims of India. Indian muslims are the ones who are behaving stupid and unislamic. May be all this sh!t has came from the hindu majority they live with. After all it is hinduism which has this menace of castes. And Indian muslims are not the religion of Islam. In fact this shows that Indian muslims now need to get a few classes about fundamentals of Islam.
> 
> Show it from Quran and Hadith. Indian express and that Mian Muzaffar are not an authority in Islam.



What I showed you is the ground reality of caste system in Islam and how the high caste Ashrafs oppress the low caste Ajlafs like Ansaris in Hindi belt. 

It was primarily to refute the argument of havisultan about the complete absence of any such practise.

*Whether its Islamic or not is not my concern or argument..just about the existence of such practises and how some ajlafs after migration to Pakistan took upon Ashraf names.*




Areesh said:


> Still they were Muhajirs. That's why I presented it as an example.
> 
> PS: Shaukat Aziz was the PM of Musharraf. He was from Bihar. Don't know whether he belonged to so called high caste of Muslims but still he was a Mohajir and the PM of Pakistan.



Not all Mohajirs were from the Ajlaf category..like Musharraf...some were Ashrafs too.


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## Areesh

KS said:


> What I showed you is the ground reality of caste system in Islam and how the high caste Ashrafs oppress the low caste Ajlafs like Ansaris in Hindi belt.



You proved nothing about Islam. What you showed is that there are a few bad practices in some parts of India. These bad practices that are present in few parts of India are result of cultural influence of hinduism on some Indian muslims. Only some Indian muslims believe in this rubbish. Islams says otherwise. Indian muslim scholars also agree with what Islam says.



> It was primarily to refute the argument of havisultan about the complete absence of any such practise.


They might exist among small groups of Indian muslims. Islam however is completely opposite.



> Whether its Islamic or not is not my concern or argument..just about the existence of such practises and how some ajlafs after migration to Pakistan took upon Ashraf names.



The non existing ajlaf caste is very successful here in Pakistan. Never heard any person belonging to imaginary caste of Ashrafs killing a person belonging to imaginary caste of Ajlafs just because he drank water from his well. Like it happens in your shining India. 



> Not all Mohajirs were from the Ajlaf category..like Musharraf...some were Ashrafs too.



Shaukat Aziz however seems to be from the hypothetical ajlaf caste unless you have something prove otherwise.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> You proved nothing about Islam. What you showed is that there are a few bad practices in some parts of India. These bad practices that are present in few parts of India are result of cultural influence of hinduism on some Indian muslims. Only some Indian muslims believe in this rubbish. Islams says otherwise. Indian muslim scholars also agree with what Islam says.
> 
> 
> They might exist among small groups of Indian muslims. Islam however is completely opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> The non existing ajlaf caste is very successful here in Pakistan. Never heard any person belonging to imaginary caste of Ashrafs killing a person belonging to imaginary caste of Ajlafs just because he drank water from his well. Like it happens in your shining India.
> 
> 
> 
> Shaukat Aziz however seems to be from the hypothetical ajlaf caste unless you have something prove otherwise.



Who said anything about existing in Islam or not. Read my previous post again...its more about the practise on ground than the presence in books. And Ashrafs have persecuted the Ansari ajlafs for daring to drive on their streets. That is what the Indian express news link is about.


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## Areesh

KS said:


> Who said anything about existing in Islam or not. Read my previous post again...its more about the practise on ground than the presence in books.



It is present in small groups of Indian muslims. Proves nothing about Islam and hence there importance and worth is negligible.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> It is present in small groups of Indian muslims. Proves nothing about Islam and hence there importance and worth is negligible.



It is present in the Hindi belt in North India which contains the overwhelming number of Indian muslims. And there is a clear stratification of Ashraf-ajlaf-Arzal among them.


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## Areesh

KS said:


> It is present in the Hindi belt in North India which contains the overwhelming number of Indian muslims. And there is a clear stratification of Ashraf-ajlaf-Arzal among them.



I am sure not all North Indian muslims belive in this rubbish. Know many of them who migrated to Pakistan. Some of them might have this issue. They don't represent muslims of India or Islam. Indian scholars are needed to tell them more about Islam. This will solve the issue. Muslim scholar need to tell them that castes are in Hinduism, not Islam.


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## KS

Areesh said:


> I am sure not all North Indian muslims belive in this rubbish. Know many of them who migrated to Pakistan. Some of them might have this issue. They don't represent muslims of India or Islam. Indian scholars are needed to tell them more about Islam. This will solve the issue. Muslim scholar need to tell them that castes are in Hinduism, not Islam.



Almost all muslim 'scholars' or those who occupy positions of power in boards like AIMPLB, WAQf board are Ashrafs..good luck.


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## Areesh

KS said:


> *Almost *all muslim 'scholars' or those who occupy positions of power in boards like AIMPLB, WAQf board are Ashrafs..good luck.



Good. Now show me a fatwa from them that there are castes in Muslims and Islam and it is acceptable according to Islam. 

PS: The word almost also shows that some scholars also belong to the hypothetical Ajlaf caste. Tell us how bogus this dogma is.


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## Mercenary

I was on vacation when this thread started and no time to read it from the beginning.

What exactly are we debating? 28 pages...must be a very touchy subject


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## Iggy

Monkey D Luffy said:


>



Maplistan??

He didnt got any other name??


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## Kambojaric

Mercenary said:


> I was on vacation when this thread started and no time to read it from the beginning.
> 
> What exactly are we debating? 28 pages...must be a very touchy subject



Well the thread has totally deviated from the OP. Now its just Indians trying to convince Pakistanis that Pakistanis have a caste system (funny i know).

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Areesh said:


> You proved nothing about Islam. What you showed is that there are a few bad practices in some parts of India. These bad practices that are present in few parts of India are result of cultural influence of hinduism on some Indian muslims. Only some Indian muslims believe in this rubbish. Islams says otherwise. Indian muslim scholars also agree with what Islam says.
> 
> 
> They might exist among small groups of Indian muslims. Islam however is completely opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> The non existing ajlaf caste is very successful here in Pakistan. Never heard any person belonging to imaginary caste of Ashrafs killing a person belonging to imaginary caste of Ajlafs just because he drank water from his well. Like it happens in your shining India.
> 
> 
> 
> Shaukat Aziz however seems to be from the hypothetical ajlaf caste unless you have something prove otherwise.



I am sure you live outside of Pakistan. Aur yeh kia musharaf aur ajlaf laga raka he? Full name of him is "syed pervez musharaf"...and who the heck is talking about Islam?...we are talking about corruption among muslims of subcontinent, you desi culture has other things like pir-parasti, mazar-parasti, urs, milad, qawali etc which has nothing to do with islam. Eat some badaam and understand that caste system among desi muslims is not like hindus but run parallel with it, muslim rajput is still high caste while merasi is low caste. Have you not noticed that toilets in pakistan are cleaned by christians, a chaudri dont marry with hajam, tarkahn, julaha, mochi etc.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I am sure you live outside of Pakistan. Aur yeh kia musharaf aur ajlaf laga raka he? Full name of him is "syed pervez musharaf"...and who the heck is talking about Islam?...we are talking about corruption among muslims of subcontinent, you desi culture has other things like pir-parasti, mazar-parasti, urs, milad, qawali etc which has nothing to do with islam. Eat some badaam and understand that caste system among desi muslims is not like hindus but run parallel with it, muslim rajput is still high caste while merasi is low caste. Have you not noticed that toilets in pakistan are cleaned by christians, a chaudri dont marry with hajam, tarkahn, julaha, mochi etc.



cleaning toilets is a lot more honourable than spewwing out anti-national hatred and venom the way you do

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## Areesh

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I am sure you live outside of Pakistan. Aur yeh kia musharaf aur ajlaf laga raka he? Full name of him is "syed pervez musharaf"...and who the heck is talking about Islam?...we are talking about corruption among muslims of subcontinent, you desi culture has other things like pir-parasti, mazar-parasti, urs, milad, qawali etc which has nothing to do with islam. Eat some badaam and understand that caste system among desi muslims is not like hindus but run parallel with it, muslim rajput is still high caste while merasi is low caste. Have you not noticed that toilets in pakistan are cleaned by christians, a chaudri dont marry with hajam, tarkahn, julaha, mochi etc.



These are not castes like Hinduism. These are social and economical differences of a society. Someone financially stable not marrying in a poor family is not a caste. Faceplam.

There might be some Indian muslims who believe in this caste sh!t the fact is Islam doesn't propagate anything like this. Your Indian friends were saying otherwise. I was just opposing this rubbish.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

I have noticed that on this forum that pakistanis goes fully on denial mode when they debate with indians. They think that they have to prove indians wrong at every cost, even if indian is right. There was a very senior pashtun female member here, with strong anti-indian sentiments, she was debating with indian, the indian used word "pashtun", she mocked him that the proper word is "pakhtun" not "pashtun", you indians know nothing about us, we pak pakhtuns hate u blah blah blah. I was surprised and PMed her that why is she speaking non-sense, both pashtun and pakhtun are correct according to two major dialects of pashto, infact word pashtun is original. She said that she knows but she has to shut the indians no matter what.



Areesh said:


> These are not castes like Hinduism. These are social and economical differences of a society. Someone financially stable not marrying in a poor family is not a caste. Faceplam.
> 
> There might be some Indian muslims who believe in this caste sh!t the fact is Islam doesn't propagate anything like this. Your Indian friends were saying otherwise. I was just opposing this rubbish.


O.k it is now confirmed to me that you live in a foriegn country.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> cleaning toilets is a lot more honourable than spewwing out anti-national hatred and venom the way you do



You clean toilets or what? Why you brought that up.
So i am anti-national because i do not hate hindus and afghans. Go on fauji sahab, you need that hate for your motivation, i do not.


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## haviZsultan

Areesh said:


> Good. Now show me a fatwa from them that there are castes in Muslims and Islam and it is acceptable according to Islam.
> 
> PS: The word almost also shows that some scholars also belong to the hypothetical Ajlaf caste. Tell us how bogus this dogma is.



I am an Ansari from one side. This debate was basically started by Luffy to score browny points and make me lose patience. This traitor is actually an enemy of Pakistan whose loyalty lies with Afghanistan and wishes Pakistan wasn't formed. He insults everyone else in the hope of starting a race war. Now understanding my weakness and loyalty to my family he is attacking it.

For luffy in Pashto:
&#1586;&#1607; &#1610;&#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1589;&#1575;&#1585;&#1610;
&#1605;&#1575; &#1607;&#1610;&#1669;&#1603;&#1604;&#1607; &#1583;&#1575;&#1587;&#1744; &#1606;&#1607; &#1608; &#1604;&#1610;&#1583;&#1604;&#1610; &#1705;&#1608;&#1605; &#1578;&#1608;&#1662;&#1610;&#1585; &#1582;&#1585; &#1578;&#1585;&#1607; 

There is nothing of this sort. 



KS said:


> You need to consult a shrink at the earliest.. for the sheer insecurity you show.
> 
> What I told is the ground reality in India - especially in UP-Bihar belt.
> 
> Now I am starting to doubt about your entire Lucknow house claim given your denial about the existence of Ashraj-Ajlaf divide or that of the pasmanda muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> This is for you
> 
> Muslim inter-caste tension surfaces in Bihar - Indian Express
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this for you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Fifty eight Dalits were gunned down by the Ranvir Sena* at Laxmanpur Bathe in Jehanabad on December 1, 1997, sending shockwaves across the country. The Lalu Prasad-led RJD government was then ruling the state.
> 
> The victims, landless agricultural workers and their families, were supporters of the Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) Party Unity. *Among those killed were 27 women and 16 children.* The victims were from the backward communities of Paswan, Chamar, Mahto, Mallah, Rajwar and Barbar.
> 
> In the well-planned operation, *about 100 Ranbir Sena activists carrying firearms* had descended on Lakshmanpur Bathe, 125 kilometres from Patna, at around 11 pm.
> *
> They forced their way into huts by breaking open the doors and fired indiscriminately at people who were asleep.* The entire hamlet located on the banks of the Sone river *was virtually decimated in the attack* that lasted more than *three hours.*
> 
> The main aim of the killers was to terrorise the sympathisers of the CPI(ML) Party Unity to strengthen the stranglehold of the powerful landlords in central Bihar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many other such incidents have occured in the past. This is about Laxmanpur riots. What happened in Bihar was an isolated incident and it was only in Bihar. Have never noticed this in Lucknow. We are ancient royalty there. lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hundreds of inter-caste feuds between Muslims happen paricularly in UP-Bihar belt..but only some are actually reported..this is one such. Now dont deny this too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow. Amazing. How come none of my relatives in Bihar have mentioned a word about this?
> 
> Another thing for you:
> 
> TNLA guy. Do you know him?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monkey D Luffy said:
> 
> 
> 
> @haviZsultan, stop being sentimental, you shouldnt hate sensible guy like KS just because he is an indian, come to your senses think tank.
> The low caste ansaris have nothing to do with Ansars of medina. In Pakistani and India they are also called "julaha", decendants of hindu weaving caste.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't hate him because he is an Indian, I find him an annoying presence because he is a troll and a very belligerent one at that.
> 
> What about Pir Roshan or Bayazid Ansari. The world has changed my friend. Ethnicity is constantly changing. Go ask your father he might tell you that you really are someone else's son. A real ghayyur Pashtun will never post rubbish with the intention of sparking ethnic war.
Click to expand...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Monkey D Luffy said:


> You clean toilets or what? Why you brought that up.
> So i am anti-national because i do not hate hindus and afghans. Go on fauji sahab, you need that hate for your motivation, i do not.



No, I have an MBA and probably earn much more than you do. (Do you even have a job?)

I brought it up because it was YOU who brought up cleaning toilets and Christians and other garbage like that.

you are anti-national because your loyalties lie with Kabul and Karzai types and not with the land that bred, raised and fed your sorry azz.

People like you may me sick to the stomach; but then again you could just be another indian false-flagger.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

> Go ask your father he might tell you that you really are someone else's son.



The newbie think tank is using very dirty langauge. 
You must be feeling very brave and lion-ish behind PC. You should be thankful to modern technology, as a jackal-hearted like couldnt say these words infront of a pashtuns in real life.
@haviZsultan you surely dont want your friend arooj khan to see such langauge.

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## KS

haviZsultan said:


> Wow. Amazing. How come none of my relatives in Bihar have mentioned a word about this?



Who knows ?..but be thankful that I showed you the reality. If you came to India you would be considered an Ajlaf..




haviZsultan said:


> Another thing for you:
> 
> TNLA guy. Do you know him?



Who told you this guy is TNLA ?

Duh..Who made this guy a think tank ? Doesnt have an iota of knowledge except writing one page essays..

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> No, I have an MBA and probably earn much more than you do. (Do you even have a job?)
> 
> I brought it up because it was YOU who brought up cleaning toilets and Christians and other garbage like that.
> 
> you are anti-national because your loyalties lie with Kabul and Karzai types and not with the land that bred, raised and fed your sorry azz.



Oye dont try to impress me with your MBA, who nowadays is done by almost every next person, but with no job. I am a doctor, dont do "nakhwaal" next time.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Ta cherta paida shaway we? sta khandaan charta paida wo? sta plarano kallay kam de? 

Yo waqt razi kala ta ba faisle kaway. aur ta ba da failse zar kaway. ka ta afganistan der khwakh de nou tolo mahajiro ta waya che dalta na uzii.

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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> The newbie think tank is using very dirty langauge.
> You must be feeling very brave and lion-ish behind PC. You should be thankful to modern technology, as a jackal-hearted like couldnt say these words infront of a pashtuns in real life.
> @haviZsultan you surely dont want your friend arooj khan to see such langauge.



I am glad you took note of this but this will help me make the point I have been trying to make for days. Luffy the issue is in your mindset. It is not actually oppression of Pashtuns or anything else. 

Now lets take this as an example. How did you guess that I did not mean the following?:
1) That you may have been adopted? 
2) That the person you were born with wasn't a Marwat and moved from some region?

Instead you believed that I said something about the chastity of your mother. I could of course because I have some evidence you are an Afghan (nation) in disguise and in 1980's we all know what Afghan (nation) women were forced to do when Mujahideen factions were at each others throats but I didn't. 

Now I want you to apply the same logic to your views. Lets take a simple thing. Abdul Qayyum Khan's heavy-handedness with KK. It is interpreted according to the zehniat of a person. For example I talked to a driver recently-its the same one I discussed in one of my earlier posts, very nice guy. We were discussing Bacha Khan and the Khudai Khidmatgars. He actually praised what was done to them while I was claiming maybe Qayyum Khan shouldn't have been so heavy-handed. Now you and your Afghan (nation) comrades lose your head over the same thing but you never wonder if there is a serious problem with your thinking that makes you find things like oppression of the stated ethnic group, anti-Pakistani feelings, and makes you deny the sacrifices and loyalty of us true Pashtuns.

Do note if @AstanoshKhan actually saw what you and your Afghan national friends called him when you made that thread and they pulled out some posts from this forum including one by Astanosh I doubt you would escape. I am a wannabe Pashtun, fine. What about Astanosh and all these others. You have to seriously start considering the fact that there is a problem in your thinking. This is nothing special, I said the same thing to those MQM guys too and often much worse things.

Also do note I go off on another tangent. I seriously intended to add you might have been adopted there but since I can hyper-focus on certain things I forget what the topic was... A person with a dirty person like you took the wrong meaning. The issue is not necessarily of the poster but of how the person interprets things. 



KS said:


> Who knows ?..but be thankful that I showed you the reality. If you came to India you would be considered an Ajlaf..



Do you know how many times I have visited Lucknow and Hydz and the fact when we had some issues even lived for 6 months in Lucknow? Even contacted Azad Deccan Movement head for Hyderabad. 

Nothing pisses of the Indians than our ties there but when we try to rectify the mistake our ancestors committed by forming a separate identity their heads are on fire. Us losing a link to these guys is better for all parties involved. Pakistanis, Indians, and Muslims of Lucknow/Bihar/Deccan. Anyone can see we are a "negative influence" according to you guys. 



> Who told you this guy is TNLA ?
> 
> Duh..Who made this guy a think tank ? Doesnt have an iota of knowledge except writing one page essays..



@KS, actually I truly feel sorry for you. You come here, spend so much time trying to enrage Pakistanis but it doesn't work. You are one of the worst Indian trolls on this forum hiding behind elite membership. Your poor knowledge about your own backyard is being proved here, still your concern lies across the border and silly things like taking over Maldives. lol. 

This guy had extensive contacts with the TNLA. I have studied ethnic issues for a while now, I research things for an increase in knowledge. 

Here is proof:



> *The extremist connection
> 
> On the ultra-Left outfits now believed to have established links with Veerappan.*
> 
> T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
> 
> THE abduction of Rajkumar has once again put the ultra-left *Tamil National Liberation Army (TNLA) led by Maran alias Senguttuvan in the limelight, revealing the nexus between it and the Veerappan criminal gang. *Its striking power had earlier alarmed the Tamil Nadu government when it attacked a police station at Andimadam on July 13, 1997 and carted away arms and ammunition.
> *
> The Veerappan-TNLA nexus was evident in the brigand's list of ten demands. Besides the nature of the demands, what gave away the TNLA hand was the ninth demand for the release of five persons from Tamil Nadu prisons. These five are TNLA cadres: Ponnivala van, radio Venkatesan alias Srinivasan, Muthukumar, Rajendran and Nagaraj. Instead of Rajendran and Nagaraj, two other names are also given: Satyamurthy and Manikandan.*
> 
> Ponnivalavan was involved in the Andimadam attack. Venkatesan is in prison under the Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act for his role in a TNLA attack on the Kullanchavadi police station in November 1993. Muthukumar was arrested in 1997 in connection with smuggling of supplies to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) at Manalmelgudi. When he was out on bail, he was reportedly involved in the attack on a police station at Vellitiruppur near Erode in 1998. Satyamurthy and Manikandan were also arrested in connection with this case. *What is revealing is that Veerappan and his close associate Sethukuli Govindan have also been named as accused in this case of attack on the police station at Vellitiruppur. This shows that the nexus betw een Veerappan and TNLA is at least two years old.* The police later detained him under the National Security Act.
> 
> Prior to its Andimadam assault, the TNLA murdered six persons belonging to two rival factions led by Ilavarasan and Koovagam Ramasamy in Perambalur and Cuddalore districts, which formed the nursery of TNLA activity. (The Maran faction is the third splint er group of the TNLA). Koovagam Ramasamy was murdered on June 8, 1997 by members of the Ilavarasan group near Vallam in Perambalur district. To avenge the murder, two members of the Ilavarasan faction, Sethu and Vikram alias Vikramadityan, were murdered by the Ramasamy group near Srimushnam village in Cuddalore district.
> 
> According to the police, Maran was a supporter of Ramasamy. Although it was initially suspected that the Ilavarasan group was behind the Andimadam attack, the police later concluded that Maran was behind it. The theory was that he would have wanted the b lame to lie at the door of Ilavarasan.
> 
> Tamilarasan was the TNLA's founder. Even police officers concede that he was a "genuine revolutionary" who wanted to end the inequities in society. A dropout from an engineering college in Coimbatore, he commanded the respect of villagers in Tiruchi and South Arcot districts for taking up the cause of landless peasants. A mob stoned him to death on September 1, 1987 after he robbed the State Bank of India branch at Ponparappi, 20 km from Ariyalur.
> 
> Four Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) groups are currently operating in Tamil Nadu: three rival factions of Ilavarasan, Koovagam Ramasamy and Maran; and the Tamil People's Liberation Army (TPLA) led by Ponparappi Rajendran.
> 
> The villages around Jayamkondan, Andimada, Perambalur, Srimushnam, Panrutti, Neyveli in the undivided Tiruchi and South Arcot districts form the area of these four groups' activities. Cashewnut groves here not only offer ideal cover to their activities b ut a source of income.
> *
> The TNLA not only believed in a revolution led by peasants and workers in Tamil Nadu but wanted to liberate the State from the Indian Union. It supported the Tamils' struggle in Sri Lanka for forming a separate Tamil Eelam. I*n the 1980s, Tamilarasan forg ed contacts with Nagarajan, a Sri Lankan Tamil who had been expelled from the LTTE, and they worked together for a while. Nagarajan was killed by the police in June 1993 near Dindigul, Tamil Nadu.
> 
> Tamilarasan also took an "adventurist" line: the TNLA started blasting railway tracks and robbing banks. It blasted the Marudayar bridge near Ariyalur, derailing the Rockfort Express on March 15, 1986. Twenty-five passengers were killed. The TNLA attempt ed to blast a bridge on the Coleroon river, near Tiruvaiyaru, in 1986 on the eve of Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi's visit. Its cadres robbed a branch of the Indian Overseas Bank at Ulkottai, Tiruchi district, on December 10, 1986.
> 
> After Tamilarasan was killed, Lenin alias Deivasigamani took over the leadership of the TNLA. The group grew rapidly under Lenin's leadership. Branches came up at Jayamkondan, Ariyalur, Vallam and other areas of the erstwhile Tiruchi and South Arcot dist ricts.
> 
> In order to acquire weapons, the TNLA led by Lenin attacked police stations at Puthur at Annamalai Nagar in 1992 and Kullanchavadi and Sethiathope in 1993 - all in South Arcot district. On March 29, 1994, while he was on his way to bomb a police station at Muthandikuppam in South Arcot district, Lenin was killed in a bomb blast.
> 
> After Lenin's death, the TNLA lay dormant for some months. Subsequently, Koovagam Ramasamy was elected its president and Ilavarasan its working president. The TNLA started conducting "panchayats" to settle disputes among the villagers, charging a fee for this. A part of this money was spent on the welfare of the villages, in the process of gaining the sympathy of the people.
> 
> The TNLA looted a cooperative bank at Vayalur, near Tiruchi, in 1995. When one of its members threatened to go to the police if he was not given one third of the booty, he was murdered. Such is the bloody history of the TNLA which is now acting in tandem with Veerappan.
> *
> That another Tamil extremist group, the Tamil National Retrieval Force (TNRF) has also linked up with Veerappan came to light when he came up with four demands in addition to the ten he had made earlier. The four demands were written on a piece of paper under Veerappan's signature, on behalf of "Veerappan group, TNLA and Tamil National Retrieval Force."*
> 
> Informed sources said that the TNRF had linked up with the LTTE. P. Ravichandran, a TNRF operative, was an accused in the Rajiv Gandhi assassination case. The Supreme Court sentenced him to life imprisonment in October 1999.



I actually found his picture on a TNLA site. Look at this:

Veerappan: Scroll down look left to see his beautiful Tamil whiskers

@KS... when I say something I research it very well. You would be wise to remember this. You might hate me... but the thing is you can't attack my knowledge. By the way does speak volumes about misplaced priorities. That guy killed about 200 people. lol. His gang still exists and is killing many more but KS finds the time to develop alliances with Luffy who could be a Taliban suicide bomber for all we know. Every time I see you two backing each other up I imagine two guys shaking hands, a monkey laughing and a bomb going off.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Ta cherta paida shaway we? sta khandaan charta paida wo? sta plarano kallay kam de?
> 
> Yo waqt razi kala ta ba faisle kaway. aur ta ba da failse zar kaway. ka ta afganistan der khwakh de nou tolo mahajiro ta waya che dalta na uzii.



Za pa pakhtano zmakay o khawry paida shaway wama, zma khandaan pakhtun dey, nekaan may pakhtun qaum sara tarrali wo che kala pakistan la wajood che na wu raghalay.
Listen Afghanistan is 300 year old, Pakistan is 60 year old while pakhtun nation is living on these lands for more than four thousand years. Just like as muslims we place our religion above nationality , in the same way pakhtun nation is above the british-created durand line, lar o bar yo afghan. Sher malang, noorzai are afghan by nationality, me and hyperion are pakistani by nationality. Their president is karzai, our is zardari and so on, but it doesnt make us two separate qaum...we are one pakhtun qaum divided into two countries due to british scheme.... 
Every pakistani pashtun would naturally love his country but it doesnt mean he has to prove his loyalty to pakistan for punjabis and mohajirs by throwing abuses at afghans and afghanistan. Thats what you are doing abu zulfiqar, though i dont blame you, your brainwashing started at schools and you would never shake it off as brainwashing in those sensitive years permenantly changes your mind.
I dont have problem with your patriotic pro-army , pro-pakistani views, i am perfectly fine with it as i agree that majority of lar pakhtuns are patriotic but for God Sake dont spread hate against Afghans, it is like spitting on your face as you are also ethnically afghan. 
But i know you dont dislike all afghans, you love hazara community, thats what i know about you turis..obsessed with shiaism.


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## Hyperion

@Monkey D Luffy @Abu Zolfiqar, yaro thora haath dheela rakho.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

@haviZsultan
Spare us with your bhaiya log langauge and dont come up with baap ki gaali just because i said julaha/ansari are considered low caste in Pakistan and India...be proud of your roots whatever you are, dont insult our pashtun royalty by connecting yourself with an afghan/pashtun princess who even didnt exist.

And i did say once on Qaid monument thread that @AstanoshKhan, might be a hindkowan, he denied it and i agreed with him. But since that time you are tagging/mentioning him like a crazy in the hope of his support against me. But he is silent and is not responding to you. You have mentioned him as hindkowan so many times that members here might actually consider him a hindkowan.


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## haviZsultan

Hyperion said:


> @Monkey D Luffy @Abu Zolfiqar, yaro thora haath dheela rakho.



One of the people you mentioned here deserves a tight thappar instead of a dheela haath.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

And @haviZsultan, i am throwing bone at you , chew on it. Yes my family origin is from katwaz, a place in paktika province of Afghanistan. My grandfather was teacher of farsi while my father took farsi as subject in B.A and C.S.S, he has excellent grasp on dari/farsi. That surprises you?


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## Hyperion

haviZsultan said:


> One of the people you mentioned here deserves a tight thappar instead of a dheela haath.



I know!


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

haviZsultan said:


> One of the people you mentioned here deserves a tight thappar instead of a dheela haath.



Oh come on dont act tough on internet. We pashtuns confront one another on "maidan" not on internet....
You are a sheep wearing skin of lion.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Za pa pakhtano zmakay o khawry paida shaway wama, zma khandaan pakhtun dey, nekaan may pakhtun qaum sara tarrali wo che kala pakistan la wajood che na wu raghalay.
> Listen Afghanistan is 300 year old, Pakistan is 60 year old while pakhtun nation is living on these lands for more than four thousand years. Just like as muslims we place our religion above nationality , in the same way pakhtun nation is above the british-created durand line, lar o bar yo afghan. Sher malang, noorzai are afghan by nationality, me and hyperion are pakistani by nationality. Their president is karzai, our is zardari and so on, but it doesnt make us two separate qaum...we are one pakhtun qaum divided into two countries due to british scheme....
> Every pakistani pashtun would naturally love his country but it doesnt mean he has to prove his loyalty to pakistan for punjabis and mohajirs by throwing abuses at afghans and afghanistan. Thats what you are doing abu zulfiqar, though i dont blame you, your brainwashing started at schools and you would never shake it off as brainwashing in those sensitive years permenantly changes your mind.
> I dont have problem with your patriotic pro-army , pro-pakistani views, i am perfectly fine with it as i agree that majority of lar pakhtuns are patriotic but for God Sake dont spread hate against Afghans, it is like spitting on your face as you are also ethnically afghan.




simple question; why should Pashtuns be treated differently than Sindhis or Punjabi or Seraiki speaking peoples? 

Just because I am Pashtun and love my mother language doesnt mean I can't be pro-Pakistan. I was born there, raised there and I'll die and be buried there. 




> But i know you dont dislike all afghans, you love hazara community, thats what i know about you turis..obsessed with shiaism.



We have Hazaras in Kurram; most of them fled persecution from Afghanistan. They are nice people, they harm nobody and they mind their own business. They aren't the ones blowing themselves up and bringing terrorism to Pakistan. 

As for the rest of your sentence, it just shows your mentality and your thinking. Doesnt bother me, i just dont need to reply to your hatred.





p.s. I have Afghan friends. Actually I would call them like my blood brothers. I don't hate Afghan people. Not at all. DONT BE FOOLISH.

I hate their government, and I hate Afghans who come to Pakistan and make trouble there. It isn't just me; ask anyone in Peshawar. Everyone is tired of this madness. If Afghanistan is a brother country then why do they abuse Pakistan when NO OTHER COUNTRY has made sacrifices for Afghanistan the way Pakistan did.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

And I'd like to correct you.

Pakistan got its independence in 1947, making it 66 years old.

Afghanistan got full independence in 1919, making it about 94 years old.


so all this talk of 300 years old is garbage and nonsense.....as for Durand Line -- it is the internationall recognized border between both countries. Of course its a border in name b/c the border is poorly demarcated and the geography is almost impossible to monitor.

but that doesnt change the fact that it is the border; so either accept it, or just please keep quiet about it.



Monkey D Luffy said:


> Oh come on dont act tough on internet. We pashtuns confront one another on "maidan" not on internet....
> You are a sheep wearing skin of lion.



who are you benefiting by resorting to animosity with your fellow citizens? 


you are so emotional maran.....take a few deep breaths and come back when you are calm

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> And I'd like to correct you.
> 
> Pakistan got its independence in 1947, making it 66 years old.
> 
> Afghanistan got full independence in 1919, making it about 94 years old.
> 
> 
> so all this talk of 300 years old is garbage and nonsense.....as for Durand Line -- it is the internationall recognized border between both countries. Of course its a border in name b/c the border is poorly demarcated and the geography is almost impossible to monitor.
> 
> but that doesnt change the fact that it is the border; so either accept it, or just please keep quiet about it.
> 
> 
> 
> who are you benefiting by resorting to animosity with your fellow citizens?
> 
> 
> you are so emotional maran.....take a few deep breaths and come back when you are calm



Well apparently your havi sultan, who is very emotional by the way, got carried away and is talking of thaparr and what not. I am simply telling him that acting tough or giving threats on virtual world is funny, we pashtuns resolve things on "maidan", wannabe like him should learn that also. 
And i think its useless to talk with you on pakhtuns and pakhuniyat. You have your own line of thinking, i respect that, carry on.


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## haviZsultan

Monkey D Luffy said:


> @haviZsultan
> Spare us with your bhaiya log langauge and dont come up with baap ki gaali just because i said julaha/ansari are considered low caste in Pakistan and India...be proud of your roots whatever you are, dont insult our pashtun royalty by connecting yourself with an afghan/pashtun princess who even didnt exist.



Did you even read the post? It wasn't a baap ki gali... did you read my post?  
I'm telling you I missed completing the post that was why it seemed like that. Also if you were thinking like that it was more of a maa ki gali and less of a baap ki gali though it was a little bit of that too but in either case it was your mindset and imagination wreaking havoc here. 

For example think of some of the Indian drama scenes. A guy hugs his old friend (a girl from say college) and his wife sees it. The music changes, drums start beating, wife starts crying and threatens to divorce... but the issue is in the wife. She doesn't let the husband explain to her that it was all a mistake, that there was no affair between the woman and the guy. This story is very much like your story here. I am telling you it wasn't my intention to insult but you don't listen because in your mind you are always thinking of gandigi and ghalazat. I am only mentioning this because you like India very much and seem to thank every anti-pakistani poster or troll like KS. 

I meant to explain the point that there were migrations everywhere... even there is no proof you are a marwat by birth just like you are throwing mud on my family and mocking its Pashtun links which are possible and again unconfirmed but who cares? Only a bigot thinks of such things and its the bigots mindset that makes him focus on the negative. Even in the Pakistani bride you saw that munni wasn't by birth a Kohistani but her father adopted her and made her one, she never knew she was adapted-though I would not like to talk about that book as it mocked us Pashtuns but I can see why when I see people like you, Luffy with very gandi soch. 

I am totally serious. I did not complete the post. I hyper-focus at times ignoring a lot of things and forgetting what was being discussed and going off on another tangent. Its why my posts are so unstructured-something which @Hyperion also noted. 

Also think of this. You are so hurt by a miscommunication or due to your own mindset which makes you perceive that I was insulting your mother by saying you are not your fathers son but someone elses, then think how much those poor Punjabis, patriotic (true/Pakistani) Pashtuns feel when you bully them on that forum, how others feel when you call the creation of Pakistan a mistake and discuss in threads what a mistake it was to be formed, insult Jinnah and every Nationalist Pakistani around. 

The issue with you bigots is their callous hearts have been turned to stone by love for Afghanistan which in a comment on pashtunforums you proved was your homeland. You do not feel any guilt when you insult a fellow countryman or someones background just because you hate him despite the fact he may have sacrificed everything to be a Pashtun. You are a sadistic individual who with his hatred would actually give the impression of what you stated... and to reinforce his identity has to insult everyone else. When I see your posts, as I said before I feel sorry for you not anything else.

BTW I was taking @AstanoshKhan as a case study of how many people you have discredited on the forum by different means stating they were non-pashtuns, hindkowan or others when challenged. You called him a Hindkowan not me... I mentioned that each time I mentioned him before. And Luffy? Seriously? You think I need support to do what I have been doing to you for so long? The bigot cannot argue with me Luffy. Better understand that. 

In any case I do not wish to involve myself in childish debates anymore where the person rather than discussing history, culture or identity is more interested in bashing Ansaris by teaming up with Indians.


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## Icewolf

Pashtuns in Pakistan live better than Pashtuns in Afghanistan, no one can deny that.

Nobody would give up their higher socio economic status in Pakistan to live with ******** broken tribal Afghans anymore.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

@haviZsultan, Why you do not share the details of the unknown afghan princess from whom you claim your origin? What was her name? What was her tribe? Era? Location?

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Icewolf said:


> Pashtuns in Pakistan live better than Pashtuns in Afghanistan, no one can deny that.
> 
> Nobody would give up their higher socio economic status in Pakistan to live with ******** broken tribal Afghans anymore.



Even if KPK was part of china, had socioecomic conditions like developed countries, they would still have been part of pakhtun nation which stretches from oxus to attock. My point is simple, a wealthy pashtun businessman of peshawer is pashtun while poor pashtun of a village in nangarhar is also pashtun....the difference is that they live in two different countries, but are one and same people. North and south korea are two different countries but their people are same racially, linguistically, culturally, historically and so on.


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## Icewolf

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Even if KPK was part of china, had socioecomic conditions like developed countries, they would still have been part of pakhtun nation which stretches from oxus to attock. My point is simple, a wealthy pashtun businessman of peshawer is pashtun while poor pashtun of a village in nangarhar is also pashtun....the difference is that they live in two different countries, but are one and same people. North and south korea are two different countries but their people are same racially, linguistically, culturally, historically and so on.



Just to remind you-

Afghanistan is not all Pashtun. Even though Pashtun is the majority race, the Tajiks and the Uzbeks dominate in Afghanistan.

Well, Afghanistan was divided by the British, as well as Pakistan. 
The border has already been implemented. You guys are causing huge trouble in Pakistan picking which side you want to be, even though clearly, Pakistan is the more successful side. I think border should be locked now,


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## FaujHistorian

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Even if KPK was part of china, had socioecomic conditions like developed countries, they would still have been part of pakhtun nation which stretches from oxus to attock. My point is simple, a wealthy pashtun businessman of peshawer is pashtun while poor pashtun of a village in nangarhar is also pashtun....the difference is that they live in two different countries, but are one and same people. North and south korea are two different countries but their people are same racially, linguistically, culturally, historically and so on.





Well said. Bravo. 

Most of us in Pakistan would agree in a heart beat the description you posted. I wish ANP top guys were as eloquent. 

The issues with ethnicities are relatively simple as long as a particular ethnicity is not used to break up a country. 

Afghanistan and Pakistan are joined at hip brothers in some ways and their linkage goes way beyond a simple Pashtun connection. 

Historically speaking, An Afghanistani was and still is welcome and respected by other ethnicities in the Indus valley including Panjabis, Balochis, Sindhis and Urdu speaking and yes off course by Pashtuns in KPK. And the reason is that in the time of peace, both regions depended on each other for food, trade, and mutual protection. 

In the time of war however, things did go topsy turvy, but then war does bring chaos regardless of ethnicities, regions, nations, and countries. 

In fact Afgthanistanis should not over-emphasize Pashtun ethnicity in Pakistan. Because the blowback of such theories have utterly destroyed Afghanistan and sadly it continues to do so. 

What they say, mess up anything but never ever, ever never mess up and $hit in your bread basket. Even lowly animals are smart enough to keep their food protected as much as they can.

Punjab and by extension Sindh provide most of the wheat aka daily bread, eggs, chicken, and meat etc. for Afghanistan. 

I was recently in Peshawar, and the food price of Ata (wheat flour), chicken meat and eggs had gone through the roof.

And many ordinary Pashtun expressed their anger that prices had shot up because so much of these items is being smuggled into Afghanistan.

Off course the shopkeepers had an easy way out. They were saying that their suppliers in Punjab have raised the prices. Which didn't make sense because the very next day when I came back from Peshawar, the prices of chicken meat and eggs had not increased to the extent it was in Peshawar. 

The only reason I could figure out was that food is being smuggled out of Peshawar and the smugglers were willing to pay top dollars. Thus bringing misery to the ordinary folks in Peshawar. 

Fortunately fresh supplies from Punjab did bring the prices down a little bit but not much due to constant pressure of smuggling and export to Afghanistan. 


Please do not take this commentary in a negative way. I am not starting a blame game.

I am simply saying that Afghanistani-Pakistani relationship goes way beyond simple ethnicity. This is for the mutual survival of the two countries. 

And thus I hope that we too on this forum go beyond the divisive discussions on one ethnicity or the other, and think of the two countries respecting each other and helping each other without raising contentious issues like border line, or ethnicities in Pakistan or in Afghanistan etc. 

This will benefit much more to Afghanistan in the short run. 

Because the more Afghanistanis emphasize Pashtunism, the more insecurity they create for their own minority ethnic groups, thus destabilizing Afghanistan the way it has been for the last 4 long very long decades. 


peace to you and peace to all.

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## bronxbull

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I have noticed that on this forum that pakistanis goes fully on denial mode when they debate with indians. They think that they have to prove indians wrong at every cost, even if indian is right. There was a very senior pashtun female member here, with strong anti-indian sentiments, she was debating with indian, the indian used word "pashtun", she mocked him that the proper word is "pakhtun" not "pashtun", you indians know nothing about us, we pak pakhtuns hate u blah blah blah. I was surprised and PMed her that why is she speaking non-sense, both pashtun and pakhtun are correct according to two major dialects of pashto, infact word pashtun is original. She said that she knows but she has to shut the indians no matter what.
> 
> 
> O.k it is now confirmed to me that you live in a foriegn country.



we also know this,butr we dont try to stretch it because we know we are right,there is no need for a certificate from anyone.

we know who that clown journo is.


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## bronxbull

haviZsultan said:


> Did you even read the post? It wasn't a baap ki gali... did you read my post?
> I'm telling you I missed completing the post that was why it seemed like that. Also if you were thinking like that it was more of a maa ki gali and less of a baap ki gali though it was a little bit of that too but in either case it was your mindset and imagination wreaking havoc here.
> 
> For example think of some of the Indian drama scenes. A guy hugs his old friend (a girl from say college) and his wife sees it. The music changes, drums start beating, wife starts crying and threatens to divorce... but the issue is in the wife. She doesn't let the husband explain to her that it was all a mistake, that there was no affair between the woman and the guy. This story is very much like your story here. I am telling you it wasn't my intention to insult but you don't listen because in your mind you are always thinking of gandigi and ghalazat. I am only mentioning this because you like India very much and seem to thank every anti-pakistani poster or troll like KS.
> 
> I meant to explain the point that there were migrations everywhere... even there is no proof you are a marwat by birth just like you are throwing mud on my family and mocking its Pashtun links which are possible and again unconfirmed but who cares? Only a bigot thinks of such things and its the bigots mindset that makes him focus on the negative. Even in the Pakistani bride you saw that munni wasn't by birth a Kohistani but her father adopted her and made her one, she never knew she was adapted-though I would not like to talk about that book as it mocked us Pashtuns but I can see why when I see people like you, Luffy with very gandi soch.
> 
> I am totally serious. I did not complete the post. I hyper-focus at times ignoring a lot of things and forgetting what was being discussed and going off on another tangent. Its why my posts are so unstructured-something which @Hyperion also noted.
> 
> Also think of this. You are so hurt by a miscommunication or due to your own mindset which makes you perceive that I was insulting your mother by saying you are not your fathers son but someone elses, then think how much those poor Punjabis, patriotic (true/Pakistani) Pashtuns feel when you bully them on that forum, how others feel when you call the creation of Pakistan a mistake and discuss in threads what a mistake it was to be formed, insult Jinnah and every Nationalist Pakistani around.
> 
> The issue with you bigots is their callous hearts have been turned to stone by love for Afghanistan which in a comment on pashtunforums you proved was your homeland. You do not feel any guilt when you insult a fellow countryman or someones background just because you hate him despite the fact he may have sacrificed everything to be a Pashtun. You are a sadistic individual who with his hatred would actually give the impression of what you stated... and to reinforce his identity has to insult everyone else. When I see your posts, as I said before I feel sorry for you not anything else.
> 
> BTW I was taking @AstanoshKhan as a case study of how many people you have discredited on the forum by different means stating they were non-pashtuns, hindkowan or others when challenged. You called him a Hindkowan not me... I mentioned that each time I mentioned him before. And Luffy? Seriously? You think I need support to do what I have been doing to you for so long? The bigot cannot argue with me Luffy. Better understand that.
> 
> In any case I do not wish to involve myself in childish debates anymore where the person rather than discussing history, culture or identity is more interested in bashing Ansaris by teaming up with Indians.



Ansari nikla bhopali.


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## ghilzai

@haviz sultan 
I don't understand why you even debating with luffy, the guy being a pushtoon is questionable and being a marwat says it all.

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## SQ8

Racist..a pitiful hate filled racist.. is all I can say..

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## ghilzai

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Well apparently your havi sultan, who is very emotional by the way, got carried away and is talking of thaparr and what not. I am simply telling him that acting tough or giving threats on virtual world is funny, we pashtuns resolve things on "maidan", wannabe like him should learn that also.
> And i think its useless to talk with you on pakhtuns and pakhuniyat. You have your own line of thinking, i respect that, carry on.



What pukhtuniyat if there is such thing, heck we never had pukhtuniyat if we did then it wouldn't have taken 1000 of years for us to become a nation, we only became a nation at the time of ahmad shah baba.

Such is the confusion in so called pukhtuniyat that some claim to be decendents of lost tribes of Israel, while the ghilzais are turkic but both claim to be pukhtoons, the truth is much closer to home that we are nomadic turco iranic people.



Oscar said:


> Racist..a pitiful hate filled racist.. is all I can say..



Who are you referring to?.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Icewolf said:


> Just to remind you-
> 
> Afghanistan is not all Pashtun. Even though Pashtun is the majority race, the Tajiks and the Uzbeks dominate in Afghanistan.
> 
> Well, Afghanistan was divided by the British, as well as Pakistan.
> The border has already been implemented. You guys are causing huge trouble in Pakistan picking which side you want to be, even though clearly, Pakistan is the more successful side. I think border should be locked now,



they aren't even majority; it's about 50-50

there are more Pashtuns in Pakistan than in all of Afghanistan



Monkey D Luffy said:


> Even if KPK was part of china, had socioecomic conditions like developed countries, they would still have been part of pakhtun nation which stretches from oxus to attock. My point is simple, a wealthy pashtun businessman of peshawer is pashtun while poor pashtun of a village in nangarhar is also pashtun....the difference is that they live in two different countries, but are one and same people. North and south korea are two different countries but their people are same racially, linguistically, culturally, historically and so on.



Pakistan and Afghanistan have the basis for excellent brotherly ties.

if ground realities change and once all the trouble-makers are taken care of


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Oscar said:


> Racist..a pitiful hate filled racist.. is all I can say..



If you have nothing relevant to say regarding thread, then keep your mouth shut.
I am fed up with you issueing me constant 'infractions' with reason "off-topic/no value. Even though it was i who reported the post for foul langauge.
Stop being biased and stop playing mohajir-pashtun card with me.

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## liontk

@Armstrong, what is this thread about, the discussion isn't really about tribal fighting is it, are you guys talking about familie or something.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

ghilzai said:


> What pukhtuniyat if there is such thing, heck we never had pukhtuniyat if we did then it wouldn't have taken 1000 of years for us to become a nation, we only became a nation at the time of ahmad shah baba.
> 
> Such is the confusion in so called pukhtuniyat that some claim to be decendents of lost tribes of Israel, while the ghilzais are turkic but both claim to be pukhtoons, the truth is much closer to home that we are nomadic turco iranic people.
> 
> 
> 
> Who are you referring to?.



Keep your insecurities of origin of ghilzai elsewhere, i am not interested in it. Heck you even dont know what exactly is pakhtuniyat, your whole post is a mess. Learn to say things coharently and to the point.


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## ghilzai

Monkey D Luffy said:


> If you have nothing relevant to say regarding thread, then keep your mouth shut.
> I am fed up with you issueing me constant 'infractions' with reason "off-topic/no value. Even though it was i who reported the post for foul langauge.
> Stop being biased and stop playing mohajir-pashtun card with me.



Actually he is playing a Pakistani card, a Muslim card, a civilised society card.
There are no muhajirs in Pakistan so he couldn't have played that card and as far as pushtoon card you have to be a pushtoon for that to be played against you not some guy who wasn't kushed at the Hindu kush and has learnt pushto.

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## ghilzai

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Keep your insecurities of origin of ghilzai elsewhere, i am not interested in it. Heck you even dont know what exactly is pakhtuniyat, your whole post is a mess. Learn to say things coharently and to the point.



Insecurities are on your part sir, ghilzais are of turkic origin and this theory of pukhtuniyat is pure bull as i pointed out we became a nation during ahmad babas time.

So which lost tribe do you claim your heritage from?.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

ghilzai said:


> Actually he is playing a Pakistani card, a Muslim card, a civilised society card.
> There are no muhajirs in Pakistan so he couldn't have played that card and as far as pushtoon card you have to be a pushtoon for that to be played against you not some guy who wasn't kushed at the Hindu kush and has learnt pushto.


Do you know why i called you fake ID, havi sultan? Because your pashto is broken, grammatically incorrect and nothing close to ghilzai's dialect of pashto. Because of that i am not taking you seriously, if you want to kept blabbling, go on.



ghilzai said:


> Insecurities are on your part sir, ghilzais are of turkic origin and this theory of pukhtuniyat is pure bull as i pointed out we became a nation during ahmad babas time.
> 
> So which lost tribe do you claim your heritage from?.



Like i said you even dont know the meaning of word "pakhtuniyat", you are using it in totally wrong context.


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## ghilzai

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Do you know why i called you fake ID, havi sultan? Because your pashto is broken, grammatically incorrect and nothing close to ghilzai's dialect of pashto. Because of that i am not taking you seriously, if you want to kept blabbling, go on.



Run away little marwat nothing uncommon about you people running away.

I have not spoken pushto so how can you tell anything?. please provide me with some evidence.

I am no haviz and if you wish to meet pm me and i will provide you my adress and you will find me in the heart of pekhawar.

A crow can never be a peacock even if it learns to dance like one, you are a decendant of those workers and slaves brought over from India who have adapted to our culture and learnt our language, hence you see so many dark skinned pushto speakers in kp and some part of Afghanistan.

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## Icewolf

Luffy is a illegal Immigrant from Afghanistan... Poor luffy just wants to earn his daily bread and to escape from his harsh life of working as trash picker in Pakistan, so he usually comes on PDF to what extent he can afford. Unfortunately, Luffy paid for the worst internet provider in Pakistan, because thats the only one he can afford, and disappears after making a distasteful comment or two.

So please guys, give Poor Luffy a break

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## SQ8

Monkey D Luffy said:


> If you have nothing relevant to say regarding thread, then keep your mouth shut.
> I am fed up with you issueing me constant 'infractions' with reason "off-topic/no value. Even though it was i who reported the post for foul langauge.
> Stop being biased and stop playing *mohajir-pashtun card with me*.



The problem with you is that you cannot see beyond this, your vision is limited to that.. 
hence your problem with foul language after you have personally insulted multiple members.

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## gangsta_rap

@liontk It was originally about that, but the Pakistani equivelant to a Quebecois seperatist decided to share his thoughts on the matter.....

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Oscar said:


> The problem with you is that you cannot see beyond this, your vision is limited to that..
> hence your problem with foul language after you have personally insulted multiple members.



I am a Pashtun nationalist, but my nationalism doesnt thrive on insulting other communities , you might not admit it but reguler members here know that. But i attract lot of critcism from the so called patriots who give the meaning of separatism to my pashtun nationalism. I recieve insults, name calling, curses, personal basis on regular basis but either i ignore them or i dont respond to them in the way which violates forum rules. Tell me honestly would you honestly take action those provokations if i start reporting them?. The way i see it, i reported havi for saying, *"ask your mother who exactly is your father"*, instead you gave me infraction for discussing caste system in indian muslims with reason "off-topic", it is noteworthy that it is your 5th consective infraction to me with reason "off-topic", for off-topic post usually issue mild warning while you are issueing me severe infractions. If you continued like this, i had to take the matter to webmaster, you are not here as representative of your mohajir community, extend your moderatorship to all pakistanis. From now on i would tag you wherever there is racist post against pashtuns and other non-mohajir communities and i would expect you to take action against it, this job is done very well by Aeronaut, a very neutral mod.


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## Icewolf

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I am a Pashtun nationalist, but my nationalism doesnt thrive on insulting other communities , you might not admit it but reguler members here know that. But i attract lot of critcism from the so called patriots who give the meaning of separatism to my pashtun nationalism. I recieve insults, name calling, curses, personal basis on regular basis but either i ignore them or i dont respond to them in the way which violates forum rules. Tell me honestly would you honestly take action those provokations if i start reporting them?. The way i see it, i reported havi for saying, *"ask your mother who exactly is your father"*, instead you gave me infraction for discussing caste system in indian muslims with reason "off-topic", it is noteworthy that it is your 5th consective infraction to me with reason "off-topic", for off-topic post usually issue mild warning while you are issueing me severe infractions. If you continued like this, i had to take the matter to webmaster, you are not here as representative of your mohajir community, extend your moderatorship to all pakistanis. From now on i would tag you wherever there is racist post against pashtuns and other non-mohajir communities and i would expect you to take action against it, this job is done very well by Aeronaut, a very neutral mod.



Back from your job already? How many streets did you clean?


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

ghilzai said:


> A crow can never be a peacock even if it learns to dance like one, you are a decendant of those workers and slaves brought over from India who have adapted to our culture and learnt our language, hence you see so many dark skinned pushto speakers in kp and some part of Afghanistan.



@Oscar i hope you would take action against this racist post. Ghilzai you should be ashamed of your racist remarks against indic muslims.

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## Icewolf

ghilzai said:


> A crow can never be a peacock even if it learns to dance like one, you are a decendant of those workers and slaves brought over from India who have adapted to our culture and learnt our language, hence you see so many dark skinned pushto speakers in kp and some part of Afghanistan.



Lol... Pathan & Indics are almost look the same

You are not white at all. Be proud of your culture instead of trying to act & look like Europeans


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## liontk

GIANTsasquatch said:


> @liontk It was originally about that, but the Pakistani equivelant to a Quebecois seperatist decided to share his thoughts on the matter.....



Seperatist thread+ Plus about pakistan+potential indinène comments= recipe for a bad chilli and with a terrible aftertaste for sure, I am out of here and merci pour le heads up monsieur giantsasquatch


corrèction: ( merci for the heads up)
,computer at the bibliotechque keeps on switching to french keyboard stupide window, crisse de tabernak


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## ghilzai

Icewolf said:


> Lol... Pathan & Indics are almost look the same
> 
> You are not white at all. Be proud of your culture instead of trying to act & look like Europeans



Dear sir i have never acted or tried too look Like a European and regarding pathans and India people looking the same, i believe you should get your eyes tested.

I can post pictures here of indic people and the pathans, you can clearly see they couldn't be anymore different.

I was not being racist, i was just telling luffy what his real heritage and not the one he claims.



Monkey D Luffy said:


> @Oscar i hope you would take action against this racist post. Ghilzai you should be ashamed of your racist remarks against indic muslims.



Where have i used the word Muslim,please point it out.

i am still waiting for the evidence on so called broken pushto, that i never spoke.


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## Son of Mountains

Damn partition strategy of British. We r not one Muslim and one Pakistani, but punjabi, pathan, baloch and sindhi.

God has made different races, but not to fight with each other.

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## Armstrong

liontk said:


> @Armstrong, what is this thread about, the discussion isn't really about tribal fighting is it, are you guys talking about familie or something.



They (the Afghans), allegedly, roughed up our boys & our boys in turn roughed them up in turn !


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## haviZsultan

Icewolf said:


> Back from your job already? How many streets did you clean?



 :Rofl:



ghilzai said:


> Dear sir i have never acted or tried too look Like a European and regarding pathans and India people looking the same, i believe you should get your eyes tested.
> 
> I can post pictures here of indic people and the pathans, you can clearly see they couldn't be anymore different.
> 
> I was not being racist, i was just telling luffy what his real heritage and not the one he claims.
> 
> Where have i used the word Muslim,please point it out.
> 
> i am still waiting for the evidence on so called broken pushto, that i never spoke.



Luffy has a serious problem of doubting everyone as a non-pashtun just because he disagrees with his views. He can say I am a wannabe but what about others. Furthermore he does not see the benefit of a non-pashtun adopting Pashtun identity, culture and traditions and learning the language and how it can help promote Pashtun ways. 

He is a sad individual. As far as @Icewolf is concerned he does not understand how it is wrong to adopt an opinion about Pashtuns because of the treason of @Monkey D Luffy. In fact it is Luffy's purpose to create mistrust of Pashtuns. He is most likely an unwashed Northerner or a weak Pashtun from Afghanistan who feels the need to bash everyone else to feel like a Pashtun. He is insecure. @Icewolf, I request you not to fight with Ghilzai. You provoked him and now its just going to become a fun thread for terrorist like Luffy who blows up bridges in Pakhunkhwa like Najibuddin's spies to peddle his Pashtunistan rubbish.



Monkey D Luffy said:


> If you have nothing relevant to say regarding thread, then keep your mouth shut.
> I am fed up with you issueing me constant 'infractions' with reason "off-topic/no value. Even though it was i who reported the post for foul langauge.
> Stop being biased and stop playing mohajir-pashtun card with me.



I have personally seen @Oscar's posts and he is against the Muhajirs. The break down of the Muhajir identity itself will take time and there will be a time when Muhajirs won't take offense when something is said about Muhajirs and understand how weak and false the term is. But it won't break down if you spend time insulting other peoples backgrounds. 



Monkey D Luffy said:


> And @haviZsultan, i am throwing bone at you , chew on it. Yes my family origin is from katwaz, a place in paktika province of Afghanistan. My grandfather was teacher of farsi while my father took farsi as subject in B.A and C.S.S, he has excellent grasp on dari/farsi. That surprises you?



Luffy, you do not need to copy me because it only shows a severe lack of ingenuity. I posted a post exactly like this on pashtunsforums and now you are posting the same thing. It goes on to show your mentality. An Afghan national has nothing better to do than insult people and abuse them for no real reason and all of them only fight over their ethnicity. You are doing the same thing. 

You are like a child who is very much influenced by the most debauched and dirty acts. I am seriously worried about what you do with your spare time. If one so-called Farsi-ized Pashtun from Afghanistan jumps in a well you do not have to do it just to prove you are a Pashtun. 



Monkey D Luffy said:


> Oh come on dont act tough on internet. We pashtuns confront one another on "maidan" not on internet....
> You are a sheep wearing skin of lion.



Luffy, I count this as one of your problems. You are a belligerent person who to prove he is a lion has to insult and provoke everyone else. You are also very ancient but that is a feature among Afghans who for the last 100 years got stuck in a vortex. Now they believe our territory is theirs. Where were they so many years?

Modern Pashtuns believe in justice and you can find intellectuals stating this even today. Muhammad Farooq Khan, the lion of Mardan and true Momin and patriotic Pakistani in an e-mail to us Nationalists stated very clearly that "violence" and calling people to a field to shoot them because they disagree among other things is not part of Pashtun culture which indirectly meant it is an Afghan (nation) influence as the people there aren't real Pashtuns. You will see constantly on Khyber tv debates about this and old concepts. Surely in 1700's 

We modern Pashtuns are not barbarians which you are in an effort to prove so that emotional posters like @IceCold or others start insulting Pashtuns and you can feel gratified that you have started a fight. 

We have the jirga and effective system like laskhars for trouble makers today which must be institionalized-lashkars should be word for the police and jirga's for assembly and government meetings and elders should go through a process of being elected by majority. 

We do not fight over small things. That custom is adopted from Afghanistan. Instead of debating you are calling to fight me and you wonder why Oscar gives you warnings. 



Pukhtoon said:


> WTH



Mara, let me explain clearly as perhaps you think this is massive wannabe-ness. My forefathers are from Lucknow. They moved to Pakistan. The links we share with Pashtuns are limited and unproven. When they came they started considering themselves Muhajir. I initially did as well but then a number of things played a part in my trying to adopt Pashtun identity. 

This was how it was supposed to be anyway as proven by the fact that those who settled in Pashtunkhwa, Balochistan and Punjab largely did integrate. I do not count myself as a Muhajir though I cannot escape the fact that I am indeed a migrant with heavy links to Lucknow and believe that the Muhajir identity is a false one and should break down. It means pilgrim and was only supposed to stay till the time we moved. 

I call myself Pashtun openly, know history and culture fully and have adopted it, language I am learning though I understand and can speak albeit with several gramatical mistakes though I still maintain loyalty to the Ansari clan due to its links to the Muslim League. You can say this is an identity crisis as Luffy does too. It is a non-issue as in either case I am Pakistani first second and last. These identity was adopted when I realized that these ethnic identities weren't disappearing despite efforts and later that by doing so I was creating unity in my land. 

As far as Luffy is concerned I saw him on another forum and there he insults Jinnah, every other ethnic group and expresses his loyalty to Afghanistan openly. 



Monkey D Luffy said:


> I am a Pashtun nationalist, but my nationalism doesnt thrive on insulting other communities , you might not admit it but reguler members here know that. But i attract lot of critcism from the so called patriots who give the meaning of separatism to my pashtun nationalism. I recieve insults, name calling, curses, personal basis on regular basis but either i ignore them or i dont respond to them in the way which violates forum rules. Tell me honestly would you honestly take action those provokations if i start reporting them?. The way i see it, i reported havi for saying, *"ask your mother who exactly is your father"*, instead you gave me infraction for discussing caste system in indian muslims with reason "off-topic", it is noteworthy that it is your 5th consective infraction to me with reason "off-topic", for off-topic post usually issue mild warning while you are issueing me severe infractions. If you continued like this, i had to take the matter to webmaster, you are not here as representative of your mohajir community, extend your moderatorship to all pakistanis. From now on i would tag you wherever there is racist post against pashtuns and other non-mohajir communities and i would expect you to take action against it, this job is done very well by Aeronaut, a very neutral mod.



@Oscar is the most valuable member here. He knows when someone is posting rubbish. I honestly did not wish to insult you and that post was incomplete. "Also I said ask your father who you are" and I meant to add "you could have been from another ethnic group and have been adopted"... you have to stop taking potshots at me because you don't like me. Same goes for KS and others. 



Icewolf said:


> Lol... Pathan & Indics are almost look the same
> 
> You are not white at all. Be proud of your culture instead of trying to act & look like Europeans



What kind of arrogant comment is that. Pathans are whiter and we all know this. I am born to a family that call itself Muhajir and even I know this.

This is where issues start. Why are you diverting the discussion?@ghilzai is true Pashtun unlike luffy. He is challenging his rubbish and you are attacking him? Also this interest in being white is a regional phenomenon. Concentrate on luffy because you post stuff attacking an ethnicity and his elation hits the roof and so does his head as he starts jumping up and down with joy in the tiny one foot place he calls home. 

We Pashtuns love our country. If you consider me a wannabe then consider the thoughts of many others. People like Luffy are traitors like the MQM supporters.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

haviZsultan said:


> :Rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> Luffy has a serious problem of doubting everyone as a non-pashtun just because he disagrees with his views. He can say I am a wannabe but what about others. Furthermore he does not see the benefit of a non-pashtun adopting Pashtun identity, culture and traditions and learning the language and how it can help promote Pashtun ways.
> 
> He is a sad individual. As far as @Icewolf is concerned he does not understand how it is wrong to adopt an opinion about Pashtuns because of the treason of @Monkey D Luffy. In fact it is Luffy's purpose to create mistrust of Pashtuns. He is most likely an unwashed Northerner or a weak Pashtun from Afghanistan who feels the need to bash everyone else to feel like a Pashtun. He is insecure. @Icewolf, I request you not to fight with Ghilzai. You provoked him and now its just going to become a fun thread for terrorist like Luffy who blows up bridges in Pakhunkhwa like Najibuddin's spies to peddle his Pashtunistan rubbish.
> 
> 
> 
> I have personally seen @Oscar's posts and he is against the Muhajirs. The break down of the Muhajir identity itself will take time and there will be a time when Muhajirs won't take offense when something is said about Muhajirs and understand how weak and false the term is. But it won't break down if you spend time insulting other peoples backgrounds.
> 
> 
> 
> Luffy, you do not need to copy me because it only shows a severe lack of ingenuity. I posted a post exactly like this on pashtunsforums and now you are posting the same thing. It goes on to show your mentality. An Afghan national has nothing better to do than insult people and abuse them for no real reason and all of them only fight over their ethnicity. You are doing the same thing.
> 
> You are like a child who is very much influenced by the most debauched and dirty acts. I am seriously worried about what you do with your spare time. If one so-called Farsi-ized Pashtun from Afghanistan jumps in a well you do not have to do it just to prove you are a Pashtun.
> 
> 
> 
> Luffy, I count this as one of your problems. You are a belligerent person who to prove he is a lion has to insult and provoke everyone else. You are also very ancient but that is a feature among Afghans who for the last 100 years got stuck in a vortex. Now they believe our territory is theirs. Where were they so many years?
> 
> Modern Pashtuns believe in justice and you can find intellectuals stating this even today. Muhammad Farooq Khan, the lion of Mardan and true Momin and patriotic Pakistani in an e-mail to us Nationalists stated very clearly that "violence" and calling people to a field to shoot them because they disagree among other things is not part of Pashtun culture which indirectly meant it is an Afghan (nation) influence as the people there aren't real Pashtuns. You will see constantly on Khyber tv debates about this and old concepts. Surely in 1700's
> 
> We modern Pashtuns are not barbarians which you are in an effort to prove so that emotional posters like @IceCold or others start insulting Pashtuns and you can feel gratified that you have started a fight.
> 
> We have the jirga and effective system like laskhars for trouble makers today which must be institionalized-lashkars should be word for the police and jirga's for assembly and government meetings and elders should go through a process of being elected by majority.
> 
> We do not fight over small things. That custom is adopted from Afghanistan. Instead of debating you are calling to fight me and you wonder why Oscar gives you warnings.
> 
> 
> 
> Mara, let me explain clearly as perhaps you think this is massive wannabe-ness. My forefathers are from Lucknow. They moved to Pakistan. The links we share with Pashtuns are limited and unproven. When they came they started considering themselves Muhajir. I initially did as well but then a number of things played a part in my trying to adopt Pashtun identity.
> 
> This was how it was supposed to be anyway as proven by the fact that those who settled in Pashtunkhwa, Balochistan and Punjab largely did integrate. I do not count myself as a Muhajir though I cannot escape the fact that I am indeed a migrant with heavy links to Lucknow and believe that the Muhajir identity is a false one and should break down. It means pilgrim and was only supposed to stay till the time we moved.
> 
> I call myself Pashtun openly, know history and culture fully and have adopted it, language I am learning though I understand and can speak albeit with several gramatical mistakes though I still maintain loyalty to the Ansari clan due to its links to the Muslim League. You can say this is an identity crisis as Luffy does too. It is a non-issue as in either case I am Pakistani first second and last. These identity was adopted when I realized that these ethnic identities weren't disappearing despite efforts and later that by doing so I was creating unity in my land.
> 
> As far as Luffy is concerned I saw him on another forum and there he insults Jinnah, every other ethnic group and expresses his loyalty to Afghanistan openly.
> 
> 
> 
> @Oscar is the most valuable member here. He knows when someone is posting rubbish. I honestly did not wish to insult you and that post was incomplete. "Also I said ask your father who you are" and I meant to add "you could have been from another ethnic group and have been adopted"... you have to stop taking potshots at me because you don't like me. Same goes for KS and others.
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of arrogant comment is that. Pathans are whiter and we all know this. I am born to a family that call itself Muhajir and even I know this.
> 
> This is where issues start. Why are you diverting the discussion?@ghilzai is true Pashtun unlike luffy. He is challenging his rubbish and you are attacking him? Also this interest in being white is a regional phenomenon. Concentrate on luffy because you post stuff attacking an ethnicity and his elation hits the roof and so does his head as he starts jumping up and down with joy in the tiny one foot place he calls home.
> 
> We Pashtuns love our country. If you consider me a wannabe then consider the thoughts of many others. People like Luffy are traitors like the MQM supporters.



Pathetic. I simply pity you.


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## notsuperstitious

This thread must hold the record for personal attacks and fould language. Great moderation too.

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## Iggy

@haviZsultan : Veerappan is a TNLA member?? You rock mate!!

You deserve to be a Think Tank with all those in depth knowledge about India.. 

With your "knowledge" and way of addressing certain issues, sky is the limit for you

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## haviZsultan

seiko said:


> @haviZsultan : Veerappan is a TNLA member?? You rock mate!!
> 
> You deserve to be a Think Tank with all those in depth knowledge about India..
> 
> With your "knowledge" and way of addressing certain issues, sky is the limit for you



KS provoked me and led the debate on to this. This thread has been derailed, gone to the dustbin, given life again by no one other than Indian trolls and here we go again. I doubt you will look at 2 posters comments one who called me an urdu word that starts with a g and ends with u and the second poster KS's comments which began all this. 

I believe you ignored post 427. This is an article that appeared:



> The extremist connection
> *
> On the ultra-Left outfits now believed to have established links with Veerappan.*
> 
> T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
> *
> THE abduction of Rajkumar has once again put the ultra-left Tamil National Liberation Army (TNLA) led by Maran alias Senguttuvan in the limelight, revealing the nexus between it and the Veerappan criminal gang.* Its striking power had earlier alarmed the Tamil Nadu government when it attacked a police station at Andimadam on July 13, 1997 and carted away arms and ammunition.
> *
> The Veerappan-TNLA nexus was evident in the brigand's list of ten demands. Besides the nature of the demands, what gave away the TNLA hand was the ninth demand for the release of five persons from Tamil Nadu prisons. These five are TNLA cadres: Ponnivala van, radio Venkatesan alias Srinivasan, Muthukumar, Rajendran and Nagaraj.* Instead of Rajendran and Nagaraj, two other names are also given: Satyamurthy and Manikandan.
> 
> Ponnivalavan was involved in the Andimadam attack. Venkatesan is in prison under the Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act for his role in a TNLA attack on the Kullanchavadi police station in November 1993. Muthukumar was arrested in 1997 in connection with smuggling of supplies to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) at Manalmelgudi. When he was out on bail, he was reportedly involved in the attack on a police station at Vellitiruppur near Erode in 1998. Satyamurthy and Manikandan were also arrested in connection with this case. What is revealing is that Veerappan and his close associate Sethukuli Govindan have also been named as accused in this case of attack on the police station at Vellitiruppur. *This shows that the nexus betw een Veerappan and TNLA is at least two years old.* The police later detained him under the National Security Act.
> 
> Prior to its Andimadam assault, the TNLA murdered six persons belonging to two rival factions led by Ilavarasan and Koovagam Ramasamy in Perambalur and Cuddalore districts, which formed the nursery of TNLA activity. (The Maran faction is the third splint er group of the TNLA). Koovagam Ramasamy was murdered on June 8, 1997 by members of the Ilavarasan group near Vallam in Perambalur district. To avenge the murder, two members of the Ilavarasan faction, Sethu and Vikram alias Vikramadityan, were murdered by the Ramasamy group near Srimushnam village in Cuddalore district.
> 
> According to the police, Maran was a supporter of Ramasamy. Although it was initially suspected that the Ilavarasan group was behind the Andimadam attack, the police later concluded that Maran was behind it. The theory was that he would have wanted the b lame to lie at the door of Ilavarasan.
> 
> Tamilarasan was the TNLA's founder. Even police officers concede that he was a "genuine revolutionary" who wanted to end the inequities in society. A dropout from an engineering college in Coimbatore, he commanded the respect of villagers in Tiruchi and South Arcot districts for taking up the cause of landless peasants. A mob stoned him to death on September 1, 1987 after he robbed the State Bank of India branch at Ponparappi, 20 km from Ariyalur.
> 
> Four Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) groups are currently operating in Tamil Nadu: three rival factions of Ilavarasan, Koovagam Ramasamy and Maran; and the Tamil People's Liberation Army (TPLA) led by Ponparappi Rajendran.
> 
> The villages around Jayamkondan, Andimada, Perambalur, Srimushnam, Panrutti, Neyveli in the undivided Tiruchi and South Arcot districts form the area of these four groups' activities. Cashewnut groves here not only offer ideal cover to their activities b ut a source of income.
> 
> The TNLA not only believed in a revolution led by peasants and workers in Tamil Nadu but wanted to liberate the State from the Indian Union. It supported the Tamils' struggle in Sri Lanka for forming a separate Tamil Eelam. In the 1980s, Tamilarasan forg ed contacts with Nagarajan, a Sri Lankan Tamil who had been expelled from the LTTE, and they worked together for a while. Nagarajan was killed by the police in June 1993 near Dindigul, Tamil Nadu.
> 
> Tamilarasan also took an "adventurist" line: the TNLA started blasting railway tracks and robbing banks. It blasted the Marudayar bridge near Ariyalur, derailing the Rockfort Express on March 15, 1986. Twenty-five passengers were killed. The TNLA attempt ed to blast a bridge on the Coleroon river, near Tiruvaiyaru, in 1986 on the eve of Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi's visit. Its cadres robbed a branch of the Indian Overseas Bank at Ulkottai, Tiruchi district, on December 10, 1986.
> 
> After Tamilarasan was killed, Lenin alias Deivasigamani took over the leadership of the TNLA. The group grew rapidly under Lenin's leadership. Branches came up at Jayamkondan, Ariyalur, Vallam and other areas of the erstwhile Tiruchi and South Arcot dist ricts.
> 
> In order to acquire weapons, the TNLA led by Lenin attacked police stations at Puthur at Annamalai Nagar in 1992 and Kullanchavadi and Sethiathope in 1993 - all in South Arcot district. On March 29, 1994, while he was on his way to bomb a police station at Muthandikuppam in South Arcot district, Lenin was killed in a bomb blast.
> 
> After Lenin's death, the TNLA lay dormant for some months. Subsequently, Koovagam Ramasamy was elected its president and Ilavarasan its working president. The TNLA started conducting "panchayats" to settle disputes among the villagers, charging a fee for this. A part of this money was spent on the welfare of the villages, in the process of gaining the sympathy of the people.
> *
> The TNLA looted a cooperative bank at Vayalur, near Tiruchi, in 1995. When one of its members threatened to go to the police if he was not given one third of the booty, he was murdered. Such is the bloody history of the TNLA which is now acting in tandem with Veerappan.*
> *
> That another Tamil extremist group, the Tamil National Retrieval Force (TNRF) has also linked up with Veerappan came to light when he came up with four demands in addition to the ten he had made earlier. The four demands were written on a piece of paper under Veerappan's signature, on behalf of "Veerappan group, TNLA and Tamil National Retrieval Force."*
> 
> Informed sources said that the TNRF had linked up with the LTTE. P. Ravichandran, a TNRF operative, was an accused in the Rajiv Gandhi assassination case. The Supreme Court sentenced him to life imprisonment in October 1999.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/afghan...s-out-pak-afghan-border-29.html#ixzz2IWi62xEJ



Another:



> It was Dr Rajkumar's abduction in July 2000 which got him national attention. For the first time, *it became known that Veerappan had included in his gang members of two dreaded Tamil extremist outfits*, the Tamil Nadu Liberation Army and the Tamil National Retrieval Troops, both modeled on the LTTE.
> *
> The nexus came to police notice when Veerappan and members of these two gangs launched a joint attack on a police station near Sathyamangalam in December 1998.*
> 
> But they kept it a closely guarded secret. The nexus came to light when Rajkumar was abducted. Of course Veerappan had to release Rajkumar eventually when it became apparent that the two Governments would resume combing operations. *Two major demands put forward by Veerappan concerned the release of five TNLA and TNRT extremists in Tamil Nadu jails and 51 TADA detenus in Mysore jail. The extremists are still in jail. But the TADA detenus have since been released by the Mysore sessions court.*



Do note times of India and other Indian newspapers reported all this so this is not really what I am saying. 

Just because you disagree doesn't mean there is no alternative view on it. Another thing:

Veerappan on TNLA website hailed as a freedom fighter: Scroll down look left

So I would like to expressly state that just because you disagree with something it does not mean there is no alternative view on the subject matter. I was studying ethnic issues and how criminals can very quickly become heroes in certain peoples eyes so I researched the subject being talked about. You do not decide who is or is not a think tank. 

It would be good if this thread now goes the way it is supposed to go. In the bin.


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## KS

Ok I was not willing to indulge this guy..but then somebody must check the idiocacy too...Veerappan was a sandalwood-ivory smuggler who acted as front for many politicians in Tamil Nadu and he basically became the fall guy when he was no longer useful. End of story.

And he was appreciated by the villagers in around the sathyamangalam forests because they are very poor and he used to pay them handsomely for tips on police movements.

TNLA my ***.



seiko said:


> @haviZsultan : Veerappan is a TNLA member?? You rock mate!!
> 
> You deserve to be a Think Tank with all those in depth knowledge about India..
> 
> With your "knowledge" and way of addressing certain issues, sky is the limit for you



We must learn to ignore some guys. That is the only way to end their idiocacy.

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## snakeeagle

in pak, afgs are very
decent if u wanna know them goto thier country,i personaly visited,they are not as same asliving in pakistan or if u told them i am punjabi then God bless u

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## INDIC

KS said:


> Ok I was not willing to indulge this guy..but then somebody must check the idicacy too...Veerappan was a sandalwood-ivory smuggler who acted as front for many politicians in Tamil Nadu and he basically became the fall guy when he was no longer useful. End of story.
> 
> And he was appreciated by the villagers in around the sathyamangalam forests because they are very poor and he used to pay them handsomely for tips on police movements.
> 
> TNLA my ***.
> 
> 
> 
> We must learn to ignore some guys. That is the only way to end their idiocacy.



Be cool dude, I believe next he will even find links of Veerappan with Annunakkis and he will explain that proudly before us.


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## AsianLion

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