# PAF's possible answer to MRCA



## sohailbutt

I took out some time from my studies to write my thoughts as to wut will PAF's possible answer be to MRCA, i have analysed all the options one by one, availabe to PAF from my point of view, so here it goes

1. IAF goes for F-18 SuperHornet

The aircraft will give IAF a big boost in stirke roles as they will now get one the best proven fighter of the US Airforce (just look at the different types of weapons it can carry), but the biggest drawback is that they would have to set up all new infrastructure to handle this aircraft, which will surely take lots of time, one of the biggest problem will also come in managing all the different Russian n American aircraft's at once. The aircraft is pricey no doubt about that but if this plane is bought the tender will easily jump from $10 Billion to $15 Billion because of the weapons that will be bought separately and training n everythin else needed with the aircrafts, US is solely sellin this plane cause it wants to counter China's growing influence in the region n the world by using India as a pawn on the chessboard, the biggest set back for India will be when US in the future bans all exports of spares for these planes to India, when it is done with China, as was the case with our F-16's when cold war ended, then after export bans for spares India will have to pay a big price in the black markets, initially the order will be for 126 aircraft but, I'm pretty sure they will exercise the remaining option for 74 aircraft which would bring the total number of F-18's to 200 in IAF.

*Possible PAF's response to this scenario.*

Well, PAF know's that this aircraft is very capable, wut I think PAF should do in this scenario is, it should adopt different alternatives to counter this threat which includes:





1. Buy real kick *** MEADS battery with Patriot's in them, which will keep the F-18's, Su-30, n all the rest of our rivals aircraft out of PAK airspace, they will not even think to come near cause Patriot is a proven hit-to-kill SAM n it never misses it's target no matter wut, n they will know this. In my view PAF shuld buy atleast 15 of these batteries which would be used with our radars and erieye's. SAM systems r cheaper than fighter aircraft's so they can be deployed in PAK in large numbers. This will also give us defence against the russian made brahmos cruise missile n their Ballistic missiles.










2. Buy some real kick *** fighter like the next generation F-15E Strike Eagle, "The F-15 family of aircraft has a perfect air-combat record of more than 100 victories and zero defeats" (greater than F-16's) (3 squadrons of these aircraft would be enough to counter the F-18 threat), or if PAF doesnot want to go American way they should go for Rafale, a very capable n proven fighter, the sale of the aircraft cannot be blocked like the F-15's by the American congress(again 3 squadrons) or the Eurofighter which is an air superiority fighter, i know its expensive but it will keep IAF away as they will know that PAF operates it n it is not the machine, it is the man behind the machine which is the real face of victory but none the less both play an important role in the success of the mission, n Alhamdulillah our Pilots r the best in the world. I would suggest PAF not to buy anymore F-16's cause we have had enough with F-16's buy somethin else now, whose technology could be used to further improve our JF-17 n possibly J-10's. Guys, one more thing, if we go for F-15E stike eagles they will have "A Service life that will allow it to be viable until at least 2035", n we know how capable this fighter is, it will be a big punch in Su-30's face n even F-18's. Wut ever aircraft PAF puchases to counter the MRCA threat in the future it should not be a sinlge engine aircraft.

Boeing: Integrated Defense Systems - F-15E Strike Eagle

In my view PAF should go for a mix of the above 2 options buy MEADS SAM batteries n buy 3 squadrons of one of the 3 twin engine planes mentioned above. This in view would be the best reply to F-18 SuperHornets as the possible MRCA winner. We donot have anyproblem with finances, we can ask Saudi's to fund our purchase or anyone else who is a trusted and time tested friend of our Proud Nation.

Anyway, guys my time is over now I've to start revisin for my exams which r after 2 weeks from now, i would conduct my analysis on F-16's n post it tommorow in this thread but guys who ever reads this please reply to it wut u think, especially the senior members (everyone is welcome to do so), thank u all for reading

Analysis of other aircraft will follow day by day from now on until the very last aircraft

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## HAIDER

Very rare chance of any US aircraft induction in Indian forces. It only narrow down to European or Russian competitors. Too much variety of Planes causes maintenance headache for any force.
F16 is rival fighter, next door country has it. Super Hornet is comparable to SU30 MKI. Only fighter left is Rafale or Euro. Critics now comparing Rafale or JAS to F22 in performance. But real test will be battle field. 
Indian has only operated lately Russian and European avionics. Mirage, Sukoi or Mig at the most.


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## BATMAN

I think in Indian MRCA race F-16 have 51&#37; chances and F-18 49%.
I think PAF's admiration of F-16 has earned it a lot of respect and perhaps made it the most sold aircraft from US.
The element of enemy already having it can be argued by them by declaring it as Indian version, different from block 50 or MLU F-16 of PAF.
Eurofighter have definite 0% chances, mainly because of its cost.
Rafale has been already declined, grippen have the potential because PAF has also attested it during evaluation, but failed to induct in past due to financial constraints.

In my opinion so far PAF is on 90% right track. If they thought they need a western fighter in the face of Indian MRCA than F-16block50 is the winner choice.
I think J-10B (advance J-10) will eventually and soon reach to the level of Rafale, Grippen, and Typhoon. Multi role but in PAF, I suppose will be more suitable for strike roles.

Thunder will also eventually and soon develop to block 50 levels and further more.

Infect, I have analyzed the pros and cons of both buying foreign and developing local and I have come to the conclusion that more you buy foreign more you help them to develop and more you keep yourself away from being developing and more you spend on local more you help yourself to develop and more you retard the development of foreign product, which may eventually be used against you.

If Indians buy any American or European the cost of 126 may truly reach around 15b$+. 
If we assume India places the order of MRCA in 2009 than it will take at least 3 years (2012) for them to get some deliveries and training. By that time I expect Dragon to develop at comparable level.
Hence Pakistan should continue on its track and keep developing local products in venture with Turkey and China.
Anyway, we have the minimum detterence in worst case, senario.
Our ROSE mirrages are equally advance as any of present Indian fighter.

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## HAIDER

For somehow PAF show extremely well performance in light combat aircraft from Sabre to F16. Master in operation light US combat aircraft. And rival India has some how inclination toward heavy weight aircraft like Mig29, SU30, Mig 25 etc. But these plane are unproven yet. Feel like PAF doctrine is agility.
As far as J10 concern touching the quality and performance of European is non. Even Pakistan is helping China in modification of aircrafts through importing avionics from European country. As we know China is facing defence embargo from European Union. China is still chasing the same track of Russian defence product linage.
May be some ex engineer can tell how many modification PAK engineers made when Mig17,19,21 imported from China.


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## CanadianPad

i agree.... try to spend money wisely then spend on defence.
every year military comes out with these big budget items..... where is the money for that.
India can spend ..let them spend.They can certainly afford it.
Canada only has F-18's..... they dont go out and spend cause they dont have to.
Defence needs changes with time.......its time Pak military look at its defence differently.


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## JEFF

sohailbutt said:


> I took out some time from my studies to write my thoughts as to wut will PAF's possible answer be to MRCA, i have analysed all the options one by one, availabe to PAF from my point of view, so here it goes
> 
> 1.	IAF goes for F-18 SuperHornet




IAF will not going for a F-18 rather it is F/A-18 Super hornets.



sohailbutt said:


> The aircraft will give IAF a big boost in stirke roles as they will now get one the best proven fighter of the US Airforce (just look at the different types of weapons it can carry), but the biggest drawback is that they would have to set up all new infrastructure to handle this aircraft,



Setting of new infrastructure and associated is now a things of past and nothing but a old myth. Boeing has already collaborating with several Indian companies lncluding TATA&#8217;s to develop Spare parts for F/A-18 SH.



sohailbutt said:


> which will surely take lots of time, one of the biggest problem will also come in managing all the different Russian n American aircraft's at once.



When one have the legacy of operating variety of aircraft of Russian, European, French as well as Indian then I don&#8217;t think above written is any big deal.



sohailbutt said:


> The aircraft is pricey no doubt about that but if this plane is bought the tender will easily jump from $10 Billion to $15 Billion because of the weapons that will be bought separately and training n everythin else needed with the aircrafts,



Even Price and huge cost per plane is now steadily becoming a thing of past, in current budget there is already provision for extra capital expenditure in the need of hour.

If one can shell out $1.05 billion for only 6 C-130 then MRCA deal is not a big issue.



sohailbutt said:


> US is solely sellin this plane cause it wants to counter China's growing influence in the region n the world by using India as a pawn on the chessboard,



India have its independent policy of containing its adversaries and it has following this policy quite successfully since its inception. Recent spicy statement of Indian Foreign minister to US of no need of guiding or Teaching India over its bilateral ties with Iran has already demonstrated this policy quite successfully.



sohailbutt said:


> the biggest set back for India will be when US in the future bans all exports of spares for these planes to India,



How can they ban all exports of spares since all the spare parts including much tauted AESA will be produce in India under TOT agreement which has also got green signal from US then I can assure you that US would never try to do the mistakes of sanctioning spare parts with Economical prosperous country in the world.




sohailbutt said:


> when it is done with China,



But china didn&#8217;t caved in. 



sohailbutt said:


> as was the case with our F-16's when cold war ended, then after export bans for spares



So banning of spares for PAF&#8217;s F-16 translate you banning of spares for Indian F/A-18 SH?



sohailbutt said:


> India will have to pay a big price in the black markets,



But India know how to deal with in this very black market quite brilliantly. 



sohailbutt said:


> initially the order will be for 126 aircraft but, I'm pretty sure they will exercise the remaining option for 74 aircraft which would bring the total number of F-18's to 200 in IAF.



This is an old myth, that will never gona happen unless IAF fallen in love with MRCA like MKI.



sohailbutt said:


> *Possible PAF's response to this scenario.*
> 
> Well, PAF know's that this aircraft is very capable, wut I think PAF should do in this scenario is, it should adopt different alternatives to counter this threat which includes:
> 
> View attachment 450
> 
> 
> 1.	Buy real kick *** MEADS battery with Patriot's in them, which will keep the F-18's, Su-30, n all the rest of our rivals aircraft out of PAK airspace, they will not even think to come near cause Patriot is a proven hit-to-kill SAM n it never misses it's target no matter wut, n they will know this. In my view PAF shuld buy atleast 15 of these batteries which would be used with our radars and erieye's. SAM systems r cheaper than fighter aircraft's so they can be deployed in PAK in large numbers. This will also give us defence against the russian made brahmos cruise missile n their Ballistic missiles.



This is very possible regarding the sale of Patriotic SAMS from US to maintain the balance in the region but seems highly unlikely as far as sophistication of Patriotic as well as budget of PAF.



sohailbutt said:


> View attachment 446
> 
> 
> View attachment 447
> 
> 
> View attachment 448
> 
> 
> Buy some real kick *** fighter like the next generation F-15E Strike Eagle, "The F-15 family of aircraft has a perfect air-combat record of more than 100 victories and zero defeats" (greater than F-16's) (3 squadrons of these aircraft would be enough to counter the F-18 threat),



Only three squadrons of those enough to counter F-18, how does it so?



sohailbutt said:


> or if PAF doesnot want to go American way they should go for Rafale, a very capable n proven fighter, the sale of the aircraft cannot be blocked like the F-15's by the American congress(again 3 squadrons) or the Eurofighter which is an air superiority fighter, i know its expensive but it will keep IAF away as they will know that PAF operates it n it is not the machine, it is the man behind the machine which is the real face of victory but none the less both play an important role in the success of the mission, n Alhamdulillah our Pilots r the best in the world. I would suggest PAF not to buy anymore F-16's cause we have had enough with F-16's buy somethin else now, whose technology could be used to further improve our JF-17 n possibly J-10's. Guys, one more thing, if we go for F-15E stike eagles they will have "A Service life that will allow it to be viable until at least 2035", n we know how capable this fighter is, it will be a big punch in Su-30's face n even F-18's. Wut ever aircraft PAF puchases to counter the MRCA threat in the future it should not be a sinlge engine aircraft.
> 
> Boeing: Integrated Defense Systems - F-15E Strike Eagle



I don&#8217;t need to go in detail about F-15, May be Pakistani members over here explain about viability in PAF fleet.




sohailbutt said:


> In my view PAF should go for a mix of the above 2 options buy MEADS SAM batteries n buy 3 squadrons of one of the 3 twin engine planes mentioned above. This in view would be the best reply to F-18 SuperHornets as the possible MRCA winner. We donot have anyproblem with finances, we can ask Saudi's to fund our purchase or anyone else who is a trusted and time tested friend of our Proud Nation.
> 
> Anyway, guys my time is over now I've to start revisin for my exams which r after 2 weeks from now, i would conduct my analysis on F-16's n post it tommorow in this thread but guys who ever reads this please reply to it wut u think, especially the senior members (everyone is welcome to do so), thank u all for reading
> 
> Analysis of other aircraft will follow day by day from now on until the very last aircraft



Best of luck for your exams.

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## Muradk

Sohail: Your data on F-15's is wrong , 100 kills and no defeat, 1991 Desert Shield 4 F-15 were shot down, and one of them was a Birg Gen. General Horner was commanding and his deputy decided to do couple of missions and he got shot down.
And I would'nt worry about the IAF getting F-18s, Dude they can hardly fly Hawks

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## sohailbutt

Muradk said:


> Sohail: Your data on F-15's is wrong , 100 kills and no defeat, 1991 Desert Shield 4 F-15 were shot down, and one of them was a Birg Gen. General Horner was commanding and his deputy decided to do couple of missions and he got shot down.
> And I would worry about the IAF getting F-18s, Dude they can hardly fly Hawks



sir i completely agree with u 100%, but the data on F-15's kills was a quote taken from a paragraph from Boeing's website, i have not edited the data at all, but i agree with u, here is the full paragraph from where i took the data:

"The F-15 family of aircraft has a perfect air-combat record of more than 100 victories and zero defeats. F-15s downed four MiG-29 fighters during the Balkan conflict and 33 of the 35 fixed-wing aircraft Iraq lost in air combat during Operation Desert Storm. During the Balkan conflict, the F-15E was the only fighter able to attack ground targets around the clock, in all weather conditions."

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/docs/F-15E_overview.pdf

ur right abut them who cant even fly hawks properly n thinkin of flyin f-18s


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## Myth_buster_1

sohailbutt said:


> QUOTE]
> 
> yaar you are talking of a spare parts eating meachine heavy weight class F-15s for paf? lately all F-15E were grounded due to brake up of fuselage in midair!
> 
> the best answer to indian 126 MRCA will be a squadron of EF-2000 backed up with Erieye AWACS!
> 
> the most likely 126 MRCA will be Mig-35 or Gripens..
> india cant just all of suden put all eggs in uncle sam's basket... MRCA, Nuke deal, SAMs, radars etc.... Russia cant afford such loss in defence market!
> or... Russia may sell its MRCA to Pakistan to cover up the loss from indian MRCA deal..

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## sohailbutt

REPLY TO JEFF.

Regardin ur 1st point it is quite clear to for me n u to understand wut IAF is goin to go for, i think ive clearly mentioned in the first post, read it again to clarify urself, i clearly meant SH it can be seen clearly.

Coming on to ur 2nd point, yes spares can be developed but in quantities mentioned by Boeing u jus cannot make spares in unlimited quantites n use them, there r always limits to the amounts of spares that u can make.

Reply to ur 3rd point, I'm sorry US aircraft aint like none other, u know this, Russian is full of old tech, n even European manfacturers lack behind US, because US is the trend setter!!!, has anyone come up with a 5th generation aircraft, even Russians r still in the designin phase of their 5th generation aircraft as far as Europeans are concerned dont know when they r goin to bring their 5th generation out possibly when US has already manufactured its 6th generation fighter!!!!

Reply to ur 4th point, jus tell me wut is the use of spendin $15 Billion to buy Sh when boeing has already stated that they r goin to take this SH into a 5th generation aircraft in the comin few years, by the time u get the technology after 2012, we would be lookin into 5th Generation fighters like F35's which I'm pretty sure PAF will go for cause our Turkish brothers have already commited themselves to a 100 F-35's. U can use this $15 billion big ticket purchase n improve ur failed Tejas fighter n Arjuns, that way u will get self reliance n u will not fill beoing's pockets who will simply make more advanced version of SH a 5th generation one.

Reply to ur 5th point, there was a guy who went to a pharmacy n he asked for a medicine, the guy said him only 1 packet of the medicine he was annoyed he increased his purchase from 1 packet to 20 packs at the same moment, it's not abut spending money but u have ur pockets full of cash at this time, u shuld spend money in the quatities u need to, jus don't close ur eyes n distribute money to lockheed or anyone else, wut is the use of buyin C-130's when u r makin ur own transport aircraft???? *it is not how hard PAK hits India it is how good THEY hit them when they are in a fight with them *that's why we survived 60 years of Independance with extremist always keepin an evil eye on our Country n willin to strike us anytime they get a chance.

Reply to ur 6th point, Indians need to learn not to teach US lessons as they r doin now, u think u r smart at sayin wut u said to US, US is a real ***** n it will kick India's *** when it needs to jus wait n see, can't u see wut it did to Russia, learn some lessons from history, US cannot see some one comin near to it's level so it eliminates that country if ur's try to do that which im pretty sure u will then ur country will learn a hard lesson next after Russia.

Reply to ur 7th point, hello wake up, *they gave a green signal for the export of AESA not TOT AESA they wuld never give this tech to anyone, by the way can u provide me with a source that they have allowed indians to manufacture AESA in their country*. U talk abut economical prosperous countru wut was ur dear friend Russia when it was broken by Bin Laden into pieces, it was a super power, so jus don't sink in this scenario that if u have a strong economy US will not keep an evil eye on u. US strategy is they will dry all the water from the river, then when u have no choice left to drink from u will beg for the water US has, get my point. Goin the US way, Russia will not be happy!!!!

Reply to ur 8th, 9th n 10th points, please clearly specify wut u mean by ur 8th point, I think india shuld learn lesson that not only PAF's F-16 spares were banned but even Turkey's F-16's spares were banned as one of the forum members mentioned it earlier, so get my point US doesn't give $hit as to who anyone is they will ban spares when they need to. Jus wonderin how will India have good experience in dealin with black markets, it has no need to, don't u think.

Reply to ur 11th n 12th point, o really old myth that India will not go for extra 74 when their squadrons strength has dramatically fallen, how will u bring ur sqaudron strength bak to normal, by buyin more jets u jus can't bring in ur Tejas to fill the gap cause even it is no where near ready after Billions in R & D. U talk abut budget PAK budget is like a glacier u can only see $4.5 billion at the top but they spend more than this, one of the members stated in his post that PAK has already crossed it allocated budget, so do u think our budget is wut we say to the world, NO!!!!! jus dont think we cant afford Patriot's, if PAF thinks it needs them they will get them no matter wut!!!! n we r not unbalancin the the balance of power in the region it is u who r doin that!!!!! wut we do is just a reply to wut u do!!!!!

Reply to ur 13th, 14th n 15th points, PAF has always operated lower number of jets to ur 750 we operate 450 approximately so IF we buy 3 squadrons i think its fine because we have our JF-17 comin up with Western goodies on it so we don't need to purchase expensive aircraft we will build the aircraft at home n buy weapons from abroad. PAF already operates a 2 engine fighter as i said IF they feel the need of goin this way they will no matter wut!!!!! Thank's for wishin me best of luck for my exams, it's my second year finals

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Jeff:*

1. Whats your source for the US agreeing allow ToT on the AESA vs just allowing assembly, if that?

2. Also, is Boeing currently producing critical parts for the F-18 in India, or has it merely inked MoU's to do so if and when the contract gets landed?

3. The Su30's are also license manufactured in India (the same option being suggested by the US from what I know) and they are grounded due to lack of spares from Russia, how is the F-18 License manufacture going to be different?

4. Turkey has also been producing the F-16 under license, and even now imports critical systems from the US for assembly.

Just looking for valid links that India will actually get enough tech transfer to manufacture every critical component (especially AESA) of the F-18, rather than just assemble.

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## asaad-ul-islam

PAF need not match every single aircraft in the IAF inventory. '65 was the same as it is now. IAF had much more aircraft in numbers and types.

Besides, whatever IAF will get for MRCA will be quite a while from now. The earliest IAF could get an aircraft would be around 2011-2012. PAF has until then to evolve the JF-17's capabilities. 

Other than that, our missile defense systems(both indigenous and purchased) should be enough to deter any offensive.

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## blain2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Jeff:*
> 
> 1. Whats your source for the US agreeing allow ToT on the AESA vs just allowing assembly, if that?
> 
> 2. Also, is Boeing currently producing critical parts for the F-18 in India, or has it merely inked MoU's to do so if and when the contract gets landed?
> 
> 3. The Su30's are also license manufactured in India (the same option being suggested by the US from what I know) and they are grounded due to lack of spares from Russia, how is the F-18 License manufacture going to be different?
> 
> 4. Turkey has also been producing the F-16 under license, and even now imports critical systems from the US for assembly.
> 
> Just looking for valid links that India will actually get enough tech transfer to manufacture every critical component (especially AESA) of the F-18, rather than just assemble.



ToT on AESA is NOT Happening. HAL will get the radars and they would put them on the aircraft with guidance from the US sources. This is the way things have been done with the Turks and Scandinavian countries and I see nothing exceptional being done here for the Indians...I think some of our Indian friends are getting a bit carried away by the US offer.

Having stated the above, IAF can, like PAF absorb US aircraft. It will take some more time but again its not out of question as they have always flown European aircraft if not American.

F/A-18 would be a threat greater than the Su-30MKI simply owing to the fact that serviceability on the Super Hornets would be much higher than the MKI and the Hornets are a much more proven MR platform than the MKIs. In WVR, F-16s are equal or better than the F/A-18s and with JHMCS on both, it would be about equal.

In the BVR arena, if IAF receives AIM-120Ds, PAF by that time would also have the same or even before the IAF receives them for as long as the relations stay as they are between Pakistan and the US.

On a side note, IAF really have no idea what a difference an American aircraft would make. They are singing praises about the MKI now, but if either the F-16 or the Super Hornet was inducted in the IAF, they would start looking at the Russian aircraft a bit differently after appreciating the serviceability, support and capability of the US aircraft. Without a doubt, US aircraft are a better bang for the buck in the long run.

PAF knows this well thus will be worried about the induction of the F/A-18 within the IAF.

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## Energon

I love these threads. They are just so entertaining. Keep on with the good work people.


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## Quwa

blain2;

With regards to AIM-120D, AIM-9X & JHMCS going to IAF...I think the PAF has already taken that into the equation. Back in 2003 if you can recall...a forum member named chursy mentioned a BVRAAM project called 'T-Darter' was 'in development'. Turns out - according to the latest media - that T-Darter is a South African development to produce something in the league of the MBDA Meteor. We have already seen the image of Archer HMDS on PAF documentaries and Richard Fisher mentioning use of an 'A-Darter derived' system on JF-17.

In other words it appears that PAF is spreading maximum capability to its mainstay JF-17...hence the threat of Super Hornet entering IAF is quite serious. With that said, I think the whole F-16 media fiasco was/is nothing more than a fiasco...let's just wait for an official PAF response. Given the sheer number of used F-16s available and the fact that Block-52+ infrastructure is being added to PAF, it would be strange that PAF would just limit itself to 18 C/D. 

Chances are that it is working on expanding the F-16 fleet quite extensively - just like the Mirage III/V fleet was - so that the JF-17 is properly supplemented. Think of the upgrades one could give F-16 - not only JHMCS, Link-16, AIM-9X, etc, but also SABR AESA and AIM-120C5/C7/D. I say wait up for IDEAS 2008 and see exactly what is going on with the whole F-16 business...could be very interesting as LM will seek to exploit the market in Pakistan.

It is also clear that the PAF will fine-tune the JF-17 airframe that could help serviceability. For one new generation Chinese engines such as WS-12 would mark drastic improvement in field performance and maintenance compared to RD-93. Next the possibility of using nanocomposite parts in the future - especially if they wish to use more composites in the fuselage and try out a type of blended wing approach.

I think much of PAF's answer will not come in a direct linear purchase...we should look at the maximal/optimal approach of ensuring all aircraft have key capabilities. The 2020s will mark another shift as PAF will put into use the local AWACS developed with China; probably a locally developed data-link interface; upgrade of air defence, etc. IMO the key will be in the next fighter PAC will produce - may it be a JF-17 NG or different aircraft entirely - with the past sight of Super Hornet & Falcon accounted.

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## Neo

Great post Mark, couldn't agree more.

Imho possible answer to IAF MRCA is not another western design but the FC-20 which will be complimented by 36-40 J-10C and another 250+ FC-17's.

FC-20 is more than a concept, it will have a number of latest western avionics and weapons combined with co-develloped technology of our own. 
More and more advanced weapons and avionics are available to us than ever before and new markets (e.g. South Africa) are opening up and selling full ToT ranging from radars to misslies and cockpits. FC-20 will have them all including AESA and W/BVRAAM's, JDAM's, HMS etc.

Compare FC-1 to JF-17 and you'll see two different aircrafts, same will be applied on FC-20 to make it a true gen 4.5 MRCA. 

Reducing the number of platforms and diversifying the combat capability is what PAF is after. Whereas some countries are trying to re-invent the wheel we're progressing with JV's and buying ToT to gain self reliance, smart move for a country with limited resources.


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## HAIDER

Energon ....don't like speculations ...lolzzz..


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## Quwa

Neo,

I think the biggest hint revolves around PAC and the Pakistani Military's wish to achieve as much in-house production. There would be little point to raise the new aircraft manufacturing facilities just to produce until 2015 and maybe a few for export later on. For up to the next 10 years I suspect PAF will induct JF-17s with successive avionics, ECM/EW, radar & weapon-system upgrades. 

However for production from 2020 the PAF will be looking for a more advanced fighter taking into account not only MRCA but also the emerging 5th generation threats. At the very least I suspect this aircraft to be a license production if not a new joint-consortium development. I am still willing to put money on the development of a 5th generation fighter being developed with assistance from China. IMO the 4.5 generation issue will be settled with adding FC-20 until the "JFX" is ready.


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## BATMAN

> it would be strange that PAF would just limit itself to 18 C/D.


That is exactly why, I deducted 10&#37; percent marks of PAF, especially when we consider that IAF is dying to have war winner fighters like F-16.
Clipping of PAF order could be very much out of political reasons, because we only heard this news from new govt.

F-16 is meant to be dog fighter that is why F-18 will lose all dog fights if pitted against F-16. (Considering all other elements constant).

If thunder gets a western engine than it's fuselage will be slimmer and its hud will stand out more or less same as F-16.
In three years time thunder will be compareable to block50 falcons and in three times IAF pilots can not even come close to the experience of PAf with falcons.

In my opinion it really does not matter what Indians get as their MRCA because whatever they will get will not be happening today or this year.

This also true that US is willing to give Indians a lot more than Pakistan, simply because Indians are in better position to negotiate because of China, Russia and Iran factor.
We have been watching this since Inidans voted against Iran and distant it self from ruskies in fovor of American patronage. Till very recent Tibet riots.
Recent Iran row is again a negotiating technique to squeeze Americans to max.

Well, what Americans did not agreed so far is T.o.T of American engines, which India is striving to get the most at any cost.


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## Quwa

BATMAN, 

That isn't the issue...the problem is that even though F-16C/D & A/B are related, there is enough of a difference between them that requires new infrastructure. It is expensive and time consuming to set up new infrastructure for a fighter...it is one thing to expand it, but to start requires extensive work and *money*. Regardless of how good JF-17 becomes, the fact that PAF has infrastructure for another good fighter to make some use of in the long-run. The F-16A/Bs might be gone by 2030, but the C/Ds will be around for a while longer.

An interesting thing to note is the airframe commonality between the Block-52+ and Block-60/IN airframes. Although LM offered F-16IN to IAF in response to their RFP, the reality remains that PAF is in a better technical position to induct F-16IN than IAF. Even if PAF cut the 18 optional Block-52+, what would stop it from procuring a number of enhanced Block-52+ variants similar to F-16IN? I think 4.5 generation capabilities will be covered by FC-20 and possibly advanced F-16s like Block-60 until PAC is replaces JF-17 production in like 2025.


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## asaad-ul-islam

that does make a point, F-16 C/D models are totally different from our current inventory. we would need to set up the infrastructure to absorb the aircraft efficiently.

it wouldn't make sense if PAF stuck with only 18. it's anyone's guess that PAF will purchase more in the future, most likely with the new SABR AESA radar.


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## Quwa

asaad-ul-islam said:


> that does make a point, F-16 C/D models are totally different from our current inventory. we would need to set up the infrastructure to absorb the aircraft efficiently.
> 
> it wouldn't make sense if PAF stuck with only 18. it's anyone's guess that PAF will purchase more in the future, most likely with the new SABR AESA radar.


Exactly...also if people intend to include Rafale and Eurofighter as possible options, then they may as well add Gripen NG. Of the three fighters, the Gripen NG suits the PAF's operations doctrine better. Though it won't be ready before 2015, I say lease 40 FC-20 from China and keep with the 18 Block-52+ until Gripen NG can replace them.

Standardize on Gripen NG as a 4.5 generation fighter for some 150 aircraft and buy it with local manufacturing. Just switch the engine to an enhanced SNECMA M88 and use private commercial lines for critical American parts. Begin producing the Gripen NG at PAC Kamra from 2020-2025.


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## sodocpkgj

id say forget about more f 16s and j10s+ eurofighter and gripens and start working on economy and strebgthen it. could take at least 5 years.


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## sohailbutt

sodocpkgj said:


> id say forget about more f 16s and j10s+ eurofighter and gripens and start working on economy and strebgthen it. could take at least 5 years.



Please avoid writin these kinds of posts, u tell our rival to stop buyin weapons then we will stop buyin weapons, we dont buy weapons to scare the **** out of anyone, we buy them as a minimum deterant to keep india away from us, as far our economy is concerned im pretty happy with the growth of the economy in the past 10 years, n im pretty sure that spendin $4.5 billion annually to keep our defence personal ready to fight is not a big amount compared to our adversory who spends $25 billion anually.

its like my neighbour is buyin guns without showin his intention as to why it is buyin, that worries me n even i start to buy weapons, get my point!!!!!!!

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## Proud to be Pakistani

*Very visionary approach .... MARK!*

*I agree with you *but it would have been better if PAF could get atleast 2 Squadrons of EF or Rafale ..... *Just to take the PAF in 2015+ without being concerned about IAF plans and procurements.*

In the meanwhile they can enhance the JF-17. J-10 can become a 4.5+ jet also within this time frame.

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## sodocpkgj

i dont think i have mentioned jf -17thunder above.
i m talkin about more f 16s and j 10s


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## sohailbutt

My remainin analysis on MRCA, startin with the 2 single engine fighters up in the race in MRCA, F-16IN & Gripen.

F-16IN & Gripen.

Startin with F-16IN, as far as i know this plane is being offered with the latest version after Block-60 of UAE, Lockheed says that it has quite advanced capabilities compared to Block 60's and 52's, I really doubt, as far as i have seen in the new block 70 there would only be a new engine thats it, not a big deal, india has always been reluctant in the past 40 years to buy F-16's cause it knows that PAF operates it so with new avionics i dont think IAF will get a chance to withstand PAF's F-16 cause our pilots have 2 decades of experience with this plane, NO WAY INDIA IS GOIN TO GO THIS WAY!!!

The biggest drawbak is this plane is now almost 40 years old it was introduced way back in the 70's n now it is goin to be replaced by F-35's, US and many other airforces who operate this aircraft will replace it with F-35's. So no use of buyin F-16's when their production line is goin to be shut when their r no more orders.

Even if IAF goes for these planes the best answer which i can think of in my mind is PAF shuld not get worried with this purchase, they shuld keep on improving their JF-17's and making them in large numbers, get the F-16's which it is goin to get, possibly equip half of them with SABR AESA (also get an AESA for the next batches of JF-17's), also get METEOR or AIM 120-D's to get the first shot at the opponent in case of war and equip JF-17's with these goodies n see wut happens

Now comin to Gripen.

Well by the time gripen comes out with its goodies in 2015 (its technologies by that time would be outdated), our JF-17 would have matured enough to match or even possibly exceed it, wut i wuld suggest in this case is that PAF stick to JF-17's n take their numbers to 250 possibly, equip them with AESA, AIM 120-C, AIM-9L, also install different types of targetting pods on it n this is wut will be best for PAF n the most cost effective n 200&#37; reliable for PAF, n see wut happens, so i would not worry if IAF goes for gripen, which i highly doubt they will

Comin to Rafale, Eurofighter.

Well, these r very good fighters, Rafale is a proven fighter n all rounder where as Eurofighter has to prove itself a bit more n show the world wut it is capable of, both these aircrafts r 4.5 generation aircraft, if IAF purchases any of the 2 aircraft, in my view wut PAF's possible response shuld be keep with the Block 52's which it is procuring possibly with SABR AESA's, JF-17's with AESA, J-10 with AESA n a different kind of targettin pod, n in 2015 issue n RFP for F-35's by that time we would have more money to get this 5th generation plane, in my view 4 squadrons would be enough if ordered in 2016 may arrive by 2020, this plane can seriously help PAF to further improve its JF-17 n can also be used to improve other aircraft which PAF may also be think of procurin like J-XX, it can also be used to make J-10 a 5th generation fighter possibly.

Now the fighter remaining is Mig-35.

Well, guys i cant say anythin abut this fighter cause i dont know this plane quite well like others so wuld not comment abut this fighter.

Concluding my analysis wut ever is the outcome of MRCA, in short this is wut PAF shuld do in my view:

Get all it's F-16's to Block 52 level(100 of them), with conformal fuel tanks, targettin pods, SABR AESA.
Get all 250 JF-17's with an AESA, a smoke free engine, which also doesnot give a blue flame at night time which can easily be seen by the enemy (Please do some changing in the tail of JF-17, i dont know why but i donot find it quite good as the F-16's, i like the fighter but i really don't like it's tail).
Get J-10's with n AESA possibly conformal fuel tanks like the ones on f-16's possible, equip it with some kind of pod for EW or somethin else.
After 2015 order F-35's, 4 squadrons, PAF wuld be the first Airforce in South East Asia to fly this bird, India will not buy it cause it will have lots of different planes like MRCA, it Su-30's, upgraded Mig-29's n Jaguars etc.
Equip all these babies with BVRAAM like Meteor n AIM-120D's, also AIM-120C's n AIM-9L, etc.

That's all wut i think, well i dont know how u guys found this analysis, but anyway i said wut i think n welcome wut others think

n thank u all especially the senior members for commentin on this topic

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## ejaz007

After going through different articles and threads and whatever information I have it is difficult to say which fighter shall be selected. First of all I doubt the fighter selected shall enter IAF by 2011-12 deadline. Its year 2008 and only RFP's have been received. Another year shall be spent analyzing them and then proper negotiations shall commence with shortlisted company. Add another year to finalize the deal and other formalities. So perhaps in year 2010 contract shall be awarded. So one should not expect the fighter to enter IAF by 2011-12. Perhaps 2013-14 would be better date.
Interestingly by that time most of the fighters in line for the competitions would have gone through upgrades and modernization. Take for example Grippen, already a next generation Grippen has been unveiled. In simple terms who ever wins IAF contract shall not be suppllying a most modern fighter but rather a second most modern fighter. The same is the case with Super Hornet. There are already plans to manufacture a better model of this plane.
PAF shall also have around 4-5 years time to improve its JF-17 and induct J-10.
My personal view is that best contender at the moment is Mig-35. What ever one says additions of a new fighter system is always difficult especially with the associated spares and technical knowledge issues arise and at time are difficult to address. I highly doubt USA shall allow manufacture of such sophisticated equipment as AESA radars in India. Assemblying or installing is one thing but manufacture an entirely different thing.


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## JEFF

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Jeff:*
> 
> 1. Whats your source for the US agreeing allow ToT on the AESA vs just allowing assembly, if that?



I am bit apologetic over here as I got little awry over here, as Boeing is very keen in allowing the TOT of AESA APG-79 Radar but final say is only upto the US Congress.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 2. Also, is Boeing currently producing critical parts for the F-18 in India, or has it merely inked MoU's to do so if and when the contract gets landed?



here is the link for above request. I would even ready to provide more such link on insistance.

http://www.idrw.org/2008/04/28/boeing_to_outsource_f18_components_to_india.html




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 3. The Su30's are also license manufactured in India (the same option being suggested by the US from what I know) and they are grounded due to lack of spares from Russia,



Pls provide me the source where it says they are being grounded, as far as I know only few have been grounded only on account of their Tyre problem and not about their spares. I guess tyre problem isn't that grave technically as compared to spare parts problem.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> how is the F-18 License manufacture going to be different?



This is exactly where clauses of the MRCA deal are so strigent and hence it is taking lots of time. Morever I failed to understand why are you interlinking the F-18 liceance production with Russian way of licence production. 




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 4. Turkey has also been producing the F-16 under license, and even now imports critical systems from the US for assembly.



Turkey may have a different aviation objective as compared to India. India want a learning through the liceance production like AESA.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Just looking for valid links that India will actually get enough tech transfer to manufacture every critical component (especially AESA) of the F-18, rather than just assemble.



As I have mentioned above alongwith link, it is clearly mentioned that Boeing has already inked a deal with India's Private enterprise to produce critical components irrespective of MRCA deal, and regarding AESA, as Boeing is quite keen upon it to allow TOT of the same but last decision is upto the US congress, I guess they may be awaiting for Nucler deal to be inked successfully in a few month and if it get inked then I guess US would more or less going to allowed liceance production of AESA.


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## EagleEyes

Remind you ejaz that J-10 hasn't been selected. It is in the cards, with other cards. But seeing the potential of the J-10.. we might really see it in the PAF. Thats the current perspective of the PAF within.


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## JEFF

sohailbutt said:


> REPLY TO JEFF.
> 
> Regardin ur 1st point it is quite clear to for me n u to understand wut IAF is goin to go for, i think ive clearly mentioned in the first post, read it again to clarify urself, i clearly meant SH it can be seen clearly.



But I didn&#8217;t raise fingure over the designation SH rather it was F/A-18, since there is a big difference between F-18 and F/A-18 as far as their dimension and certain changes are concerened.




sohailbutt said:


> Coming on to ur 2nd point, yes spares can be developed but in quantities mentioned by Boeing u jus cannot make spares in unlimited quantites n use them, there r always limits to the amounts of spares that u can make.



Why do we need to make those spares in unlimited quantities? As along as we can kept those SH flying with sufficient amt of spares till then I don&#8217;t think we need unlimited quantities of spares.




sohailbutt said:


> Reply to ur 3rd point, I'm sorry US aircraft aint like none other, u know this, Russian is full of old tech, n even European manfacturers lack behind US, because US is the trend setter!!!, has anyone come up with a 5th generation aircraft, even Russians r still in the designin phase of their 5th generation aircraft as far as Europeans are concerned dont know when they r goin to bring their 5th generation out possibly when US has already manufactured its 6th generation fighter!!!!



Well according to my third point I never braught the comparisons of US and all other aircrafts. Rather I bring IAF&#8217;s competence to handle different breed of aircraft. I guess you should one re-read my previous statement.




sohailbutt said:


> Reply to ur 4th point, jus tell me wut is the use of spendin $15 Billion to buy Sh when boeing has already stated that they r goin to take this SH into a 5th generation aircraft in the comin few years, by the time u get the technology after 2012,



Well as far as present thread perceptions are concerned we are spending $10 billion behind MRCA and not $15 Billion as you stated.

Moreover pls tell me or provide a link where it says that Boeing gona transform SH into 5th generation fighter in coming years. 



sohailbutt said:


> we would be lookin into 5th Generation fighters like F35's which I'm pretty sure PAF will go for cause our Turkish brothers have already commited themselves to a 100 F-35's.



Oh my goodness, Purchases of F-35 by PAF from Turkish Bothers, then why doesn&#8217;t PAF purchase F-16s from similar Turkish Bothers currently?



sohailbutt said:


> U can use this $15 billion big ticket purchase n improve ur failed Tejas fighter n Arjuns,



According to your viewpoint Tejas and Arjuns are definetly failed, but we need to try in order to get failed, there is no shortcuts to success, those who don&#8217;t even try for the fear of failure are the biggest loosers in the world. 



sohailbutt said:


> that way u will get self reliance n u will not fill beoing's pockets who will simply make more advanced version of SH a 5th generation one.



Pls provide the link to for Boeing project of SH of turning it into 5th generation one?




sohailbutt said:


> Reply to ur 5th point, there was a guy who went to a pharmacy n he asked for a medicine, the guy said him only 1 packet of the medicine he was annoyed he increased his purchase from 1 packet to 20 packs at the same moment, it's not abut spending money but u have ur pockets full of cash at this time, u shuld spend money in the quatities u need to, jus don't close ur eyes n distribute money to lockheed or anyone else,



I think we are well mature enough to take the decision in order to where to spends properly.



sohailbutt said:


> wut is the use of buyin C-130's when u r makin ur own transport aircraft????



That because C-130 will used in completely different role which our project transport aircraft will take some time to fulfill till it get inducted.



sohailbutt said:


> *it is not how hard PAK hits India it is how good THEY hit them when they are in a fight with them *that's why we survived 60 years of Independance with extremist always keepin an evil eye on our Country n willin to strike us anytime they get a chance.



I think above stuff is completely irrelevant to current topic. 




sohailbutt said:


> Reply to ur 6th point, Indians need to learn not to teach US lessons as they r doin now,



I guess India don&#8217;t need to learn from you as how teach US a lessons. 



sohailbutt said:


> u think u r smart at sayin wut u said to US, US is a real ***** n it will kick India's *** when it needs to jus wait n see, can't u see wut it did to Russia, learn some lessons from history, US cannot see some one comin near to it's level so it eliminates that country if ur's try to do that which im pretty sure u will then ur country will learn a hard lesson next after Russia.



I think you yourself has said that learn some lessons from history, well have we learn that lessons quite brilliantly and applying those learning in present scenario. Today&#8217;s world is more diverse and complex and hence US is currently finding it hard to cope with current geo-political scenario.





sohailbutt said:


> Reply to ur 7th point, hello wake up, *they gave a green signal for the export of AESA not TOT AESA they wuld never give this tech to anyone, by the way can u provide me with a source that they have allowed indians to manufacture AESA in their country*.



Truly said, even I confessed that I got little awry on previous occasion and said some invalid statement about TOT of AESA. But Boeing is quite keen upon providing TOT of AESA to India, but last words is only upto the US congress, even US congressmen has never stated that they will never provide India with TOT of AESA, so they might be reviewing about wheather to provide TOT over it or not and more or less is entirely dependent upon inking of Nucler pact.



sohailbutt said:


> U talk abut economical prosperous countru wut was ur dear friend Russia when it was broken by Bin Laden into pieces, it was a super power,



Ha ha ha ha, good entertaining stuff as Bin Laden broken Russia into the pieces. This is something hard to digest even Pakistani citizens over here.




sohailbutt said:


> so jus don't sink in this scenario that if u have a strong economy US will not keep an evil eye on u. US strategy is they will dry all the water from the river, then when u have no choice left to drink from u will beg for the water US has, get my point.



But our water sources are hailing from Himalyan regions as well as Monsoons, so don&#8217;t worry about US strategy of drying of all water from the river.




sohailbutt said:


> Goin the US way, Russia will not be happy!!!!



India is more then enough mature to balance Diplomatic ties with Russia and US.



sohailbutt said:


> Reply to ur 8th, 9th n 10th points, please clearly specify wut u mean by ur 8th point, I think india shuld learn lesson that not only PAF's F-16 spares were banned but even Turkey's F-16's spares were banned as one of the forum members mentioned it earlier, so get my point US doesn't give $hit as to who anyone is they will ban spares when they need to.


As you seems to be quite competent in predicting the future so tell me as for what would be the reason for which US would banned spares for India when they need to ?

What are those needs?




sohailbutt said:


> Jus wonderin how will India have good experience in dealin with black markets, it has no need to, don't u think.



Now its upto you, since you were the one who braught the point of Black markets.




sohailbutt said:


> Reply to ur 11th n 12th point, o really old myth that India will not go for extra 74 when their squadrons strength has dramatically fallen, how will u bring ur sqaudron strength bak to normal,



But how does depleting in squadron strength translate you into bring those numbers back into order by getting extra 74 MRCA?

Since for that matter we have already order extra Su-30MKI.



sohailbutt said:


> by buyin more jets u jus can't bring in ur Tejas to fill the gap cause even it is no where near ready after Billions in R & D.



See Tejas is a learning platform for us. We can bring them into operation in a couple of years as far as eagerness of several foreign firm in helping it but we will not gona learn anything from it and hence it is taking so much time since we are undertaking all its entire development from scratch. 



sohailbutt said:


> U talk abut budget PAK budget is like a glacier u can only see $4.5 billion at the top but they spend more than this,



Pls tell me a concrete amt that they spend more then $ 4.5 billion?



sohailbutt said:


> one of the members stated in his post that PAK has already crossed it allocated budget,



May be PAF has crossed its allocated budget, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that they can go on shopping spree all over the world.



sohailbutt said:


> so do u think our budget is wut we say to the world, NO!!!!! jus dont think we cant afford Patriot's,



If you can afford Patriots, then why does PAF cancelled 18 F-16 order because of limited budget?



sohailbutt said:


> if PAF thinks it needs them they will get them no matter wut!!!!



But intense thinking of PAF doesn&#8217;t translate into a purchase of whatever they feel to purchase.



sohailbutt said:


> n we r not unbalancin the the balance of power in the region it is u who r doin that!!!!! wut we do is just a reply to wut u do!!!!!



Well we have two enemies to face and hence we can justify our purchase of weapons.



sohailbutt said:


> Reply to ur 13th, 14th n 15th points, PAF has always operated lower number of jets to ur 750 we operate 450 approximately so IF we buy 3 squadrons i think its fine because we have our JF-17 comin up with Western goodies on it so we don't need to purchase expensive aircraft we will build the aircraft at home n buy weapons from abroad.
> PAF already operates a 2 engine fighter as i said IF they feel the need of goin this way they will no matter wut!!!!!



It is not PAF who is feeling about it rather your feelings, Just because they are operating two engine fighter in the form of Q-5 that doesn&#8217;t mean that they would be able to operate fuel hungry all other twin engine jets.



sohailbutt said:


> Thank's for wishin me best of luck for my exams, it's my second year finals



In what streams? I mean Commerce, Arts, Science, or Engineering.

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## ejaz007

Webby,
Cabinet has already approved purchase of 36 J-10. I think it was in April 2006. So they are coming. The question is only when.


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## EagleEyes

ejaz007 said:


> Webby,
> Cabinet has already approved purchase of 36 J-10. I think it was in April 2006. So they are coming. The question is only when.



It is a news to me. Please share a link if you have one.

Considering that the another order of 18 F-16s has been canceled.


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## JEFF

sohailbutt said:


> My remainin analysis on MRCA, startin with the 2 single engine fighters up in the race in MRCA, F-16IN & Gripen.
> 
> F-16IN & Gripen.
> 
> Startin with F-16IN, as far as i know this plane is being offered with the latest version after Block-60 of UAE, Lockheed says that it has quite advanced capabilities compared to Block 60's and 52's, I really doubt, as far as i have seen in the new block 70 there would only be a new engine thats it,



Kindly explain what kind of a engine sigificance have you seen in F-16IN?



sohailbutt said:


> not a big deal, india has always been reluctant in the past 40 years to buy F-16's cause it knows that PAF operates it so with new avionics i dont think IAF will get a chance to withstand PAF's F-16 cause our pilots have 2 decades of experience with this plane, NO WAY INDIA IS GOIN TO GO THIS WAY!!!



If that was the case then India never may have purchases improved versions of Mirage planes during 80s since even PAF were operating Mirage-5?





sohailbutt said:


> Even if IAF goes for these planes the best answer which i can think of in my mind is PAF shuld not get worried with this purchase, they shuld keep on improving their JF-17's and making them in large numbers, get the F-16's which it is goin to get, possibly equip half of them with SABR AESA (also get an AESA for the next batches of JF-17's), also get METEOR or AIM 120-D's to get the first shot at the opponent in case of war and equip JF-17's with these goodies n see wut happens



Does AESA radar SABR is so advanced then APG-80? I mean that would allow JF-17 to have a first shot.





sohailbutt said:


> Now comin to Gripen.
> 
> Well by the time gripen comes out with its goodies in 2015 (its technologies by that time would be outdated), our JF-17 would have matured enough to match or even possibly exceed it, wut i wuld suggest in this case is that PAF stick to JF-17's n take their numbers to 250 possibly, equip them with AESA, AIM 120-C, AIM-9L, also install different types of targetting pods on it n this is wut will be best for PAF n the most cost effective n 200% reliable for PAF,



So does this mean that Gripen will remain exception to any upgrade? and how does it will gona get outdated by 2015? 




sohailbutt said:


> n see wut happens, so i would not worry if IAF goes for gripen, which i highly doubt they will



Since its role is quite resemeblance to Tejas.




sohailbutt said:


> Comin to Rafale, Eurofighter.
> 
> Well, these r very good fighters, Rafale is a proven fighter n all rounder where as Eurofighter has to prove itself a bit more n show the world wut it is capable of, both these aircrafts r 4.5 generation aircraft, if IAF purchases any of the 2 aircraft, in my view wut PAF's possible response shuld be keep with the Block 52's which it is procuring possibly with SABR AESA's, JF-17's with AESA, J-10 with AESA n a different kind of targettin pod, n in 2015 issue n RFP for F-35's by that time we would have more money to get this 5th generation plane, in my view 4 squadrons would be enough if ordered in 2016 may arrive by 2020, this plane can seriously help PAF to further improve its JF-17 n can also be used to improve other aircraft which PAF may also be think of procurin like J-XX, it can also be used to make J-10 a 5th generation fighter possibly.
> 
> Now the fighter remaining is Mig-35.
> 
> Well, guys i cant say anythin abut this fighter cause i dont know this plane quite well like others so wuld not comment abut this fighter.
> 
> Concluding my analysis wut ever is the outcome of MRCA, in short this is wut PAF shuld do in my view:
> 
> Get all it's F-16's to Block 52 level(100 of them), with conformal fuel tanks, targettin pods, SABR AESA.
> Get all 250 JF-17's with an AESA, a smoke free engine, which also doesnot give a blue flame at night time which can easily be seen by the enemy (Please do some changing in the tail of JF-17, i dont know why but i donot find it quite good as the F-16's, i like the fighter but i really don't like it's tail).
> Get J-10's with n AESA possibly conformal fuel tanks like the ones on f-16's possible, equip it with some kind of pod for EW or somethin else.
> After 2015 order F-35's, 4 squadrons, PAF wuld be the first Airforce in South East Asia to fly this bird, India will not buy it cause it will have lots of different planes like MRCA, it Su-30's, upgraded Mig-29's n Jaguars etc.
> Equip all these babies with BVRAAM like Metoer n AIM-120D's, also AIM-120C's n AIM-9L, etc.
> 
> That's all wut i think, well i dont know how u guys found this analysis, but anyway i said wut i think n welcome wut others think
> 
> n thank u all especially the senior members for commentin on this topic



Now this entire para is quite entertaining as far as purchase of 4 squadrons of F-35 is concerned.


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## ejaz007

*Cabinet okays Chinese, F-16 jets procurement*
From our correspondent

ISLAMABAD -- *Approving the procurement of F-16s as well as Chinese fighters, the Federal Cabinet on Wednesday resolved to maintain credible air defence of the country.*
At the outset of the meeting under Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz the cabinet condemned the Karachi suicide bomb blast, Federal Information Minister Sheikh Rashid brief the media here about the meeting.
He, however, said it was not yet clear whether it was a sectarian violence or a foreign backed act of terror.
The cabinet decided not to call out Army for law enforcement in Karachi as police and Rangers were controlling the post-blast situation in the provincial capital, the minister responded to a questioner.
However, he said, army troops were carrying out flag march in sensitive areas of the city.
According to Sheikh Rashid, Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao briefed the cabinet on the overall security situation in Karachi and the cabinet termed security situation under control and ordered immediate arrest of the culprits. 
To a question about the strike in reaction to the blast killing over 50 people, the minister said, Pakistan is a democratic country and its people are free to express their emotions.
According to the minister, heirs of the blast victims would be paid Rs 300,000 each as compensation and the injured would get Rs 50,000 each.
To a question about the recent American desire for civilian rule in Pakistan over military and its linkage to the return of former Prime Ministers in exile, Sheikh Rashid said US Assistant Secretary of State Boucher himself had responded to a similar question that this was Pakistans internal matter.
Earlier, the Health Minister informed the cabinet that there was no bird flu in the country and the local chicken meat was safe of such viruses.
According to the information minister, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz while addressing the cabinet, said in categorical terms that the current assemblies would complete their tenure and the next elections would be held towards the end of 2007 or early 2008.
Rashid said the cabinet also noted the issue of President General Pervez Musharrafs military uniform and decided that this issue would be decided in 2007 according to the Constitutional provisions. Asked about the interim government after the completion of the current assemblies tenure, Sheikh Rashid said it was premature to say anything in this regard.
The cabinet also decided to hold national population census in 2008, as it was required after every ten years, he said. To a question, he added, it might not be possible to hold early next elections as the same would be due not before the start of the year 2008 and it would a process requiring months if not a year.
During the meeting the cabinet also approved the privatization of the Pakistan Telecom Company Limited.
*While giving details of the aircraft to be bought from both US and China, Sheikh Rashid said Pakistan would get both new version of F-16s called CD as well as AB-version the older one in addition to high-tech Chinese fighters.
The federal cabinet, he said, reiterated its resolve to maintain credible defence and meet the needs of Pakistan Air Force.*
The interior minister briefed the cabinet also on the situation in Blochistan and Waziristan. 
The Nation

Webby,
The chinese fighter is the J-10. Unfortunately I have not been able to trace the link which clearly said that J-10 was approved for purcahse. That I think was daily times newspaper.
Regards,


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## IceCold

The purchase of the J-10 was approved by the cabinet, however a joint working group was formed to meet the demands of the PAF w.r.t to the J-10. I think PAF was not entirely satisfied with it and therefore went for the F-16 untill the J-10 gets matured enough to be inducted in the PAF. When will that happen, is still to be seen considering the fact the chinese aero industry lacks the expertise that of the west.


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## Neo

WebMaster said:


> Remind you ejaz that J-10 hasn't been selected. It is in the cards, with other cards. But seeing the potential of the J-10.. we might really see it in the PAF. Thats the current perspective of the PAF within.



Webby,

36 J-10's have been ordered, I posted the news on April 16th. 



> *Defence spending exceeds budgetary allocation ​*
> ISLAMABAD (April 16 2008): *Procurement of Swedish military technology, and JF-17 Thunder aircraft from China for Pakistan Air Force has* *increased Defence budget by 27 percent to Rs 350 billion from Rs 275 billion allocated in the 2007-08 budget,* official sources told Business Recorder here on Tuesday.
> 
> Finance Minister Ishaq Dar, in his briefing to the Cabinet a few days ago had disclosed that the government had spent additional Rs 38.5 billion on procurement of defence equipment and aircraft under the Armed Forces Development Program (AFDP) for which not a single penny was allocated in the 2007-08 budget.
> 
> *"Previous government did not allocate a single penny under AFDP in the budget but later on projected Rs 75 billion for this purpose, of which Rs 38.5 billion has already been paid to procure early warning system from Sweden and JF-17 Thunder from China," sources said.*
> 
> An official of Finance Ministry confirmed that the government had projected Rs 75 billion over and above the allocated defence budget for procurement for military hardware, of which Rs 38.5 billion has already been paid.
> 
> "PAF has seriously lagged behind over the years, mainly due to various geo-political and economic constraints. In order to redress this capability deficit, PAF has very carefully evaluated the hi-tech options against well-defined air staff requirements," sources said.
> 
> It is not clear when it was decided to purchase these very expensive items: at the time of the budget, when this item was deliberately kept out to show a lower deficit or at a later time by the PAF for which approval must have been sought by the President.
> 
> Attempt was made to contact Secretary, Defence, Kamran Rasool, and PAF spokesman Sarfraz Ahmad, but no response was received. The government had allocated Rs 275 billion for defence in the federal budget, of which Rs 170.2 billion has already been spent during July-February against the projections of Rs 167.5 billion.
> 
> On April 12, 2006, federal cabinet had decided to purchase 98 hi-tech aircraft from the United States and China besides missiles and other equipment to improve the capabilities of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). When the proposal had been approved, PAF's combat fleet consisted of around 350 aircraft.
> 
> *The bulk of its inventory comprises old Mirages and Chinese-origin A-5, FT-6 and F-7 aircraft. With the exception of F-7 PGs, most of these aircraft are more than 20 years old and are scheduled to retire between 2008 and 2015.*
> 
> Foreseeing this retirement schedule and the known difficulties associated with replacing all old aircraft with western equipment, PAF embarked upon the co-development of JF-17 aircraft. *The induction of JF-17 had been planned so as to have a systematic replacement of the retired fleet.*
> 
> *According to an official document, exclusively obtained by Business Recorder, mixed package of hi-tech aircraft and equipment, being purchased from USA and China, is as under: FC-20 aircraft (36), SD-10 BVR missiles (300), F-16 A/B, ex-Pakistan (26), F-16 C/D (18 with an option for 18 more), BVR, 500(American), targeting pods 18 and joint direct attack munitions (500). The expenditure on the entire package would be met from PAF share in Armed Forces Development Program (AFDP-2019), the document says.*
> 
> *The Cabinet, according to the document, has allowed PAF to set up Joint Working Group (JWG) with CATIC for procurement of 36 FC-20 aircraft. *The government would also help PAF in securing *long-term credit financing for the FC-20 aircraft from Chinese government*, besides allowing PAF to initiate a Letter of Request (LoR) for the F-16 package and equipment through the Defence Ministry.
> 
> *While the US F-16 C/D and Swedish Grippen qualified against the PAF requirements, the Chinese FC-20, in its present state, lagged behind due to the lack of advanced avionics systems and weapons. For the future, however, PAF termed it as a good option with very promising growth potential to become one of the frontline fighters to face the challenges of the 21st century, the sources maintained.*
> 
> Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]



http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...-exceeds-budgetary-allocation.html#post151162


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## Energon

Why didn't Pakistan get in on the development of the J-10 when China first conceived the program?


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## Quwa

Energon said:


> Why didn't Pakistan get in on the development of the J-10 when China first conceived the program?


When J-10 was started it was top secret....

Thanks to the internet a lot of things leak when they shouldn't...China 'revealed' J-10 officially only 2-3 years back. Given this track record, only God knows what they are developing nowadays.

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## asaad-ul-islam

Energon said:


> Why didn't Pakistan get in on the development of the J-10 when China first conceived the program?


J-10 started way back, before pakistan even could consider co-developing a fighter. besides, J-10 is a symbol of China's own handiwork. I don't think they would accept any help or cooperation in a project of this kind. it's a kind of a "national pride" issue.

for some reason, unfortunately, the chinese seem to disregard the JF-17. JF-17 is deemed a secondary project completed for the sake of cooperation between two countries. 

what they don't seem to realize is that PAF pilots are behind the major design change of the aircraft. PAF pilots helped guide the design of the aircraft to meet their own needs, maneuverability being it's strong point.

i hope this answers it for you.

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## Neo

asaad-ul-islam said:


> J-10 started way back, before pakistan even could consider co-developing a fighter. besides, J-10 is a symbol of China's own handiwork. I don't think they would accept any help or cooperation in a project of this kind. it's a kind of a "national pride" issue.


J-10 is based on the abandoned Lavi programme by Israeli's and for the obvious reasons it was kept secret, even from Pakistan because any Pakistani involvement would upset Israeli's cooperation and ToT to China before it was completed.



> for some reason, unfortunately, the chinese seem to disregard the JF-17. JF-17 is deemed a secondary project completed for the sake of cooperation between two countries.


Its no longer true, yes the FC-1 was initially designed to meet PAF's demand and for export purpose as medium technology and low maintenance combat fighter. But today FC-1/JF-17 has evolved into a matured platform, partly due to our input and 20+ years flying experience with F-16's and even Chinese engineers are impressed with its performance. A political decision to induct the FC-1 has become a practical one today.



> what they don't seem to realize is that PAF pilots are behind the major design change of the aircraft. PAF pilots helped guide the design of the aircraft to meet their own needs, maneuverability being it's strong point.
> i hope this answers it for you.


Oh they do realise that. I met the FC-1 engineering team in Paris Le Bourget in 2007, they were all lyric about the 50+ strong PAF engineering team thats based in Chendu and working 24/7 on the project, some even speak fluent Chinese!!
PAF team is working on the concept according to its ASR and using Chinese manufacturing expertise to materialise it. Some of the changes and upgrades suggested and applied by PAF on JF-17 engineers were also integrated in FC-1.
FC-1/JF-17 is a true 50:50 JV with growing interest in both China and Pakistan.

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## fatman17

Neo - u r right but there are no plans as yet to induct FC-1/JF-17 in the PLAAF. the chinese are concentrating on the J-10 and the J-11B as part of their cutting-edge fighters.
FC-1 will be a export product and the chinese are very interested to capture this low-cost medium tech market.


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## sodocpkgj

yeh i met the team 2 in singapore. They had the flight simulator there.


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## BATMAN

fatman17 said:


> Neo - u r right but there are no plans as yet to induct FC-1/JF-17 in the PLAAF. the chinese are concentrating on the J-10 and the J-11B as part of their cutting-edge fighters.
> FC-1 will be a export product and the chinese are very interested to capture this low-cost medium tech market.



Indeed Chinese hands are full with J-10 and J-11B, both of those better suit to their applications.
I expect both fighters to develop simultaneously.

I think Thunder and Dragon both are multirole but thunder is better choice in interceptor/dog fight role where as Dragon is more suitable for strike role nad can be used in bomber role as well.

I don't think chinese would sell Dragon to any nation other than Pakistan due to the risk of its capabilities being known to adversarary.


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## EagleEyes

fatman17 said:


> Neo - u r right but there are no plans as yet to induct FC-1/JF-17 in the PLAAF. the chinese are concentrating on the J-10 and the J-11B as part of their cutting-edge fighters.
> FC-1 will be a export product and the chinese are very interested to capture this low-cost medium tech market.



Chinese should have 8 JF-17s. The production capability of 16 aircrafts per year is currently in China. We have received eight, and they have received eight. It was part of the plan.


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## Neo

fatman17 said:


> Neo - u r right but there are no plans as yet to induct FC-1/JF-17 in the PLAAF. the chinese are concentrating on the J-10 and the J-11B as part of their cutting-edge fighters.
> FC-1 will be a export product and the chinese are very interested to capture this low-cost medium tech market.



Sir,

Chinese are contract bound to induct atleast 100 FC-1's in PLAAF, I haven't seen any reports suggesting diffrently.


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> Chinese should have 8 JF-17s. The production capability of 16 aircrafts per year is currently in China. We have received eight, and they have received eight. It was part of the plan.



i dont deny this but it is not reported in their PLAAF order of battle.


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## fatman17

Neo said:


> Sir,
> 
> Chinese are contract bound to induct atleast 100 FC-1's in PLAAF, I haven't seen any reports suggesting diffrently.



correct again Neo - but just think for a moment - why PAF has increased its committment from 150 units to 250 units?. one could be to keep the per/unit cost as per budget (US 15-20 mill) because the chinese are slow in their committment to induct the JF-17.


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## Neo

Chinese contract is to assure continuity of the project, not just cost management.
Btw, without Chinese order the cost would be higher than projected $18 million.


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## Neo

The increase in numbers is due to success in progress and capabilites, we'll be able to replace much more squadrons with JF-17 than inital plan.
Initially we wanted to replace the J-6 and J-7's with the Thunder and Mirages with F-16's and another western design. 

Now JF-17 will replace AQ-5, J-7P/J-7PG and Half the Mirages III/V.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

On the issue of the radar being procured for the JF-17, if our requirement for aircraft has gone up to 250 aircraft, then we are potentially looking at close to 200 units, not including any export units - doesn't that give Pakistan leverage to negotiate for license production and ToT? 

If it does, any reports that Pakistan is indeed looking for such an agreement with whoever the final supplier ends up being?


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## Neo

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> On the issue of the radar being procured for the JF-17, if our requirement for aircraft has gone up to 250 aircraft, then we are potentially looking at close to 200 units, not including any export units - doesn't that give Pakistan leverage to negotiate for license production and ToT?
> 
> If it does, and reports that Pakistan is indeed looking for such an agreement with whoever the final supplier ends up being?



We've adopted the policy of purchasing with full ToT. Many European countries like Italy, France and Czeck Republic are willing to sell licences, specially when we talk in nubers like 200-250.

The first batch of Chinese KLJ radar will evetually be replaced by a western desgin, so the number could go to 250


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## Energon

Would it be possible to relieve the Chinese from their contractual commitment of inducting the 100 JF-17s?
It seems to me that the JF-17, a low cost baseline multirole fighter doesn't really fit the requirements of the PLAAF who seem to be looking for more sophisticated and expensive fighters like the J-10 and the Flanker derivatives. In such a case, it would be far more advantageous for Pakistan to increase their order and/or induct the aircrafts at a faster pace by procuring the 100 units meant for China and then exporting the units being produced after the PAF's quota is full to interested parties like Azerbaijan and Sudan.



BATMAN said:


> I think Thunder and Dragon both are multirole but thunder is better choice in interceptor/dog fight role where as Dragon is more suitable for strike role nad can be used in bomber role as well


Don't be ridiculous. The specifications of both aircrafts indicate that the J-10 is a superior platform for both air superiority and strike missions.


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## BATMAN

Energon said:


> Don't be ridiculous. The specifications of both aircrafts indicate that the J-10 is a superior platform for both air superiority and strike missions.



What are you counting as specifications?

And yes, Americans are also not buying Thyphoon, does that make it a inferior product?


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## Energon

BATMAN said:


> What are you counting as specifications?


 The ones that are applicable to the roles in contention.



BATMAN said:


> And yes, Americans are also not buying Thyphoon, does that make it a inferior product?


 This is your argument? Really? 

The US's not having procured the Eurofighter has nothing to do with the fact that the J-10 is a more superior operational platform than the JF-17.


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## Quwa

As per tphuang's blog, the PLAAF may be interested in JF-17 as a twin-seat advanced trainer & LIFT as well as attack aircraft to replace Q-5. In that case the PLAAF would probably buy more than 100 JF-17. More will also depend on the JF-17's improvements in its future pre-2015 batches - particularly in RCS, range, payload, engine and serviceability. Overall it might prove to be a good support aircraft to supplement the J-10 & J-11B.


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## ejaz007

Since JF-17 is clearly superior to Q-5 and J-7 and PLAF operates a number of these plans there is every possibility that eventually this plane shall be inducted in PLAF. Replacing all Q-5 and J-7 with J-10 or Flankers may not be possible due to cost involved and also to bring down the unit cost of JF-17 and make it more export feasible Chinese government could ask PLAF to induct the plane.
The planes has exceeded all the parameters originally anticipated and is still going through improvements so it could be a very good contender for export to countries with budget constraint airforces.
As far as radar and avionics is concerned I think Italian and French companies are in the race and one of them shall be the winner.


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## sehranasheen

i thinkwe should avoid western option to counter MRCA, due to political and economical reasons. if we opt for any western AC, there will always be the fear of embargoes os spareparts and they can also jamm them through codes. the other reason is they are very expensive. PAF should stick to JF-17 and J-10 and upgrade it to 4.5 gen AC by putting more sophisticated avionics, and wait for JXX to come out.

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## sohailbutt

sehranasheen said:


> i thinkwe should avoid western option to counter MRCA, due to political and economical reasons. if we opt for any western AC, there will always be the fear of embargoes os spareparts and they can also jamm them through codes. the other reason is they are very expensive. PAF should stick to JF-17 and J-10 and upgrade it to 4.5 gen AC by putting more sophisticated avionics, and wait for JXX to come out.



Brother, if u see PAF history it has always kept a mix of American, European n Chinese fighters in it fighter fleet. we do not expect an aircraft to be selected by PAF to counter MRCA soon, it may be 3 years or may be more, from now that PAF takes a decision, to counter this MRCA threat, well i can tell u this that PAF will always keep an American fighter with it, no matter wut the economic, political conditions, i am pretty sure that once this new government takes a strong hold of the country than our economy will grow very fast, n political situation will improve, we cannot stick to just JF-17 n J-10's they r not mature enough, they need time to mature, if u compare them to Western fighters, Western fighters r way ahead in avionics etc.

When we talk of J-XX, we really dont know what kind of avionics it will have, that can possibly give it an edge over F-35 and possibly if not exceed but stand against F-22 raptors, it is still in design n development where as both f-35 n f-22 r already servin the defence forces, there has always been uncertainity over the supplies of fighters from US. but brother, money has always talked n it talks today as well, frankly speaking if somebody has money he can go n buy a rolls for himself, if he doesnot have then he may not be able to buy a cheaper car as well, that is the case with Pakistan right now, but u will see big changes in the next decade, cause the next decade 2010-2020, will change Pakistan forever, with Gwadar port fully operational, IPI, possibly TAPI gaspipelines running from our country n economy growing at a constant 7% anually which will accelerate when the political situation stablises in the next few years, Pakistan would be a major player in the region n tha world as well. our country then can afford all kind of fighters, no matter either American f-35's or European.

But i can tell u one thing for sure PAF will surely counter MRCA with a much advance fighter, from the 5th generation league, possiblities include F-35's, J-XX.

my choice would be F-35's cause J-XX will not be able to match the avionics which r in F-35, n by the time J-XX comes out F-35 would be serving many airforces all around the world which included one of our brotherly nation of Turkey (they will have 100 F-35's by the end of 2019, Mashallah).

We shuld not worry abut MRCA too much cause it's goin to take IAF a year or may be more to study all the proposals word by word, then again there is lenghty process which follows on, they r likely to place the order for MRCA in late 2009, then after they do that, expect the first batch of planes to arrive by 2013, by that time PAF would have collected loads of money to place n order for 5th generation possibly, cause their is no use of buyin 4th geneation heavy fighters like f-15's, eurofighter, rafale, when u have the respective airforces of these countries already goin ahead with 5th generation F-35's.


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## nitesh

Guys this is first post here.

Sohail as you said pakistan will always keep american fighters in its inventory then it means they are always suseptible to american senctions isn't it?

When you talk about J-XX you accept that you dont have an idea about avionics package. But can you please give the timeframe when it is expected to be in air.
As even -35 will be operational by first batch of MRCA arrives, so realistically speaking J-XX might take on skies probably around 2015, then testing the bird, validating configurations and finally induction will take lot of time.


And when did french said they are going ahead with F-35?

So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically.


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## sohailbutt

nitesh said:


> Guys this is first post here.
> 
> Sohail as you said pakistan will always keep american fighters in its inventory then it means they are always suseptible to american senctions isn't it?
> 
> When you talk about J-XX you accept that you dont have an idea about avionics package. But can you please give the timeframe when it is expected to be in air.
> As even -35 will be operational by first batch of MRCA arrives, so realistically speaking J-XX might take on skies probably around 2015, then testing the bird, validating configurations and finally induction will take lot of time.
> 
> And when did french said they are going ahead with F-35?
> 
> So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically.



Ur first post shuld be n introduction of urself that is a rule on this forum, then u start writin wut u want to write. happy to have u here, welcome to .

Sanctions, now US has seen wut is the effect of sanctions on us, they sanctioned us we got JF-17, wish they sanction us again, n see wut happens then, this time it is a win-win situation for Pakistan, War on terrorism (WOT), without Pakistan's help Americans rnt goin to go anywhere on their WOT. so u take this santions out of the figure, we r not afraid of sanctions anymore!!!

Well, when i talk abut J-XX, i speculate abut its avionics, that they wuld not be any better then the present 5th generation fighters, i think u raised this point that i dont know abut it's avionics, n yes i dont know, *better u tell me wut avionics will it have*.

n i m not into Chinese aviation industry that i can tell u when it is goin to make its first appearance. 

my mistake abut French, i accept that.

IAF has always been stronger than PAF, comin on to ur tiltin of the power thing in India's favor, don't u think that at the present time IAF is way stronger then PAf, with all it Mixed Russian, French, British fleet of fighters, when i read this point in ur post:

"So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically"

*wut do u want us to do, u want us to follow u in the arms race that India has started?????*

well, we r not that stupid to follow u in ur arms race (like ur dear friend Russia did follow US arms race, look wut happened to them), tell me wut is the use of buyin military hardware when u r not goin to war with anyone in the near future, n my friend India cannot scare $hit out of anyone now, cause now it is sorrounded by Nuclear powers, any misadventure by India like in the past this time it will have to pay a very very heavy price!!!!

heared of nukes!!!!!

this is not 1900's that u spend billions on hardware, to try to make ur presence felt in the region!!!!

try to take those $25 billion that u spend yearly on military hardware n feed ur 300 million people who live on less that a $1 a day, if not that then use the money else where. India has started an arms race in the region makin it more dangerous so u shuld naturally expect other nation's to keep a minimum deterance to defend themselves n that is wut Pakistan is doin, n will always do even when u order MRCA.

n 1 thing, Pakistani's r brave souls, they would give their lives to defend Pakistan, why do u think India couldnot get Pakistan bak even after fightin 3 wars??? *its because u lack the courage to conquer n we have the will n courage to defend our motherland*.

*WE ARE NOT WORRIED ABUT UR MRCA, PERIOD!!!*

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## nitesh

sohailbutt said:


> Ur first post shuld be n introduction of urself that is a rule on this forum, then u start writin wut u want to write. happy to have u here, welcome to .


I am sorry for this mistake, Nitesh jain from bangalore India working as a telecom consultant. Done B.E. in computer science and pursuing MBA



> Sanctions, now US has seen wut is the effect of sanctions on us, they sanctioned us we got JF-17, wish they sanction us again, n see wut happens then, this time it is a win-win situation for Pakistan, War on terrorism (WOT), without Pakistan's help Americans rnt goin to go anywhere on their WOT. so u take this santions out of the figure, we r not afraid of sanctions anymore!!!



With respect to your previous post you said you seems to say that JF will take time to mature as a platform so seems you are trying to say you are happy with techs tht are not mature then........



> Well, when i talk abut J-XX, i speculate abut its avionics, that they wuld not be any better then the present 5th generation fighters, i think u raised this point that i dont know abut it's avionics, n yes i dont know, *better u tell me wut avionics will it have*.



As you are asking me to answer really saying even i have no idea, but heard a lot of chinese build quality, but they are making huge technology strides and it will be world class



> n i m not into Chinese aviation industry that i can tell u when it is goin to make its first appearance.



So lets put this plane out of equation, there is no point in bragging about a plane about which we dont have any idea 



> my mistake abut French, i accept that.



No problems



> IAF has always been stronger than PAF, comin on to ur tiltin of the power thing in India's favor, don't u think that at the present time IAF is way stronger then PAf, with all it Mixed Russian, French, British fleet of fighters, when i read this point in ur post:



Well I agree to you, yes IAF is stronger 

"So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically"

*wut do u want us to do, u want us to follow u in the arms race that India has started?????*

Well to be honest I feel MRCA is china centric, but in case of war the MRCA will seriously affect pak capability of launching nukes from air.




> well, we r not that stupid to follow u in ur arms race (like ur dear friend Russia did follow US arms race, look wut happened to them), tell me wut is the use of buyin military hardware when u r not goin to war with anyone in the near future, n my friend India cannot scare $hit out of anyone now, cause now it is sorrounded by Nuclear powers, any misadventure by India like in the past this time it will have to pay a very very heavy price!!!!



Well soviet disintegration was more to do with there defunct ideology.



> heared of nukes!!!!!



Pray to god we should never use it.



> this is not 1900's that u spend billions on hardware, to try to make ur presence felt in the region!!!!



Whether it is 1900 or 2500 countries need to spend on hardware, there is no alternative for this



> try to take those $25 billion that u spend yearly on military hardware n feed ur 300 million people who live on less that a $1 a day, if not that then use the money else where. India has started an arms race in the region makin it more dangerous so u shuld naturally expect other nation's to keep a minimum deterance to defend themselves n that is wut Pakistan is doin, n will always do even when u order MRCA.



Well as per various reports I see, india's per capita income is still higher then pakistan, as well as there economy is much bigger then pakistan. So the conditions are improving at rapid pace in India




> n 1 thing, Pakistani's r brave souls, they would give their lives to defend Pakistan, why do u think India couldnot get Pakistan bak even after fightin 3 wars??? *its because u lack the courage to conquer n we have the will n courage to defend our motherland*.
> 
> *WE ARE NOT WORRIED ABUT UR MRCA, PERIOD!!!*



Well i agree that pakistanis are brave souls, but you should note pakistan got divided in to two countries isn't it. 

Anyway, just chill


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## sohailbutt

nitesh said:


> I am sorry for this mistake, Nitesh jain from bangalore India working as a telecom consultant. Done B.E. in computer science and pursuing MBA
> 
> With respect to your previous post you said you seems to say that JF will take time to mature as a platform so seems you are trying to say you are happy with techs tht are not mature then........
> 
> As you are asking me to answer really saying even i have no idea, but heard a lot of chinese build quality, but they are making huge technology strides and it will be world class
> 
> So lets put this plane out of equation, there is no point in bragging about a plane about which we dont have any idea
> 
> No problems
> 
> Well I agree to you, yes IAF is stronger
> 
> "So I think pakistan should worry about MRCA. As it can tilt the balance of forces in the region quite dramatically"
> 
> *wut do u want us to do, u want us to follow u in the arms race that India has started?????*
> 
> Well to be honest I feel MRCA is china centric, but in case of war the MRCA will seriously affect pak capability of launching nukes from air.
> 
> Well soviet disintegration was more to do with there defunct ideology.
> 
> Pray to god we should never use it.
> 
> Whether it is 1900 or 2500 countries need to spend on hardware, there is no alternative for this
> 
> Well as per various reports I see, india's per capita income is still higher then pakistan, as well as there economy is much bigger then pakistan. So the conditions are improving at rapid pace in India
> 
> Well i agree that pakistanis are brave souls, but you should note pakistan got divided in to two countries isn't it.
> 
> Anyway, just chill



ur rightin style reminds me of JEFF, he also has the habbit of makin hundred of pieces of a post n then writin reply to each one of them

i wuld like to reply to only one point in the post:

"Well i agree that pakistanis are brave souls, but you should note pakistan got divided in to two countries isn't it"

we got divided not by Indian pressure, we were divided because of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who gave the orders to surrender without even consulting President Zia-ul-Haq at the time, Muslims dont surrender, n that guy made our generals surrender, that is why we were divided, so u could see that after Bangladesh was formed he was hanged, in Punjab, the orders for which were given out by Genral Zia.

well if u ask me, really i m very happy that Bangladesh is not a part of Pakistan.


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## nitesh

End of the day result matters, now you can be happy or not happy. Now lets get back to topic.

In my feeling MRCA tender is going to not only bring lot of hardware but will make a lot of political statement also. I feel like Rafale is going to be the winner cos france is having a good relationship with India and rafale can also be customized for naval role, hence it will reduce the overall cost. 

What's your view?


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## sohailbutt

nitesh said:


> End of the day result matters, now you can be happy or not happy. Now lets get back to topic.
> 
> In my feeling MRCA tender is going to not only bring lot of hardware but will make a lot of political statement also. I feel like Rafale is going to be the winner cos france is having a good relationship with India and rafale can also be customized for naval role, hence it will reduce the overall cost.
> 
> What's your view?



k, no probs with me, anyway, lets talk abut MRCA, as u said Rafale may win the contract, i seriously believe Indians have put themselves in a big trouble, this MRCA decision is goin to be a political one now, well Rafale is a proven n a very capable platform n its very reliable as well, but the problem my friend is not in buyin a car, it is in maintain the car, IAF has some real problem in maintainin its fighter fleet as i come to know by readin senior member posts regardin IAF fighters.

well, if u see Americans they r not very reliable, in our case u can see PAF history as to wut they did with us US has already started to show IAF wut it is, they have just blocked India's air force one plane to be delievered next month n they r demandin changes in the terms of contract, this shows that whatever the tech they have offer to u, u cannot use them against their will, for e.g. take UAE airforce, they have got Block 60 F-16's but they cannot fly them until they get the codes from US, so in ur case i dont think IAF can take this kind of restriction, so take out both the American fighters out of equation. US is very clever they r actually goin t trick u if u go their way, coz they r goin to close the production line of F-16's when their r no more orders, n the F-18's if u get in MRCA, by 2013, boeing will already have the 5th Generation F-18 in desing/production stage as they said already. so my friend Americans dont stand a chance in MRCA. even they r not offering u TOT on very critical parts of the fighter, i heared somewhere they r ready to offer 60&#37; TOT on Superhornet, very clever Americans.

Well, French weapons r for countries who want to be independant of US, so i think rafale has great chances of winning.

Gripen doesn't stand a chance, better get ur LCA in air rather goin for this fighter.

Typhoon is too expensive u cannot get 126 fighters for $10 billion, just look at the Royal Saudi airforce they bought 72 Eurofighters in $10 billion. so it is impossible really for the typhoon to be the winner, if IAF goes for the typhoon then with weapons, training, spares etc the cost of this tender will easily exceed $15 billion, n this is a big big amount.

Mig-35 was solely produced for IAF, but i can't say anythin abut this platform cause i dont know Russian fighters well enough. Russians r givin hard time to Indians so i dont see this aircraft havin any chances of winnin MRCA.

I THINK RAFALE IS WINNER!!!

one more thin US has not offered it's F-35's to India, so no chances of India buyin F-16's. cause it offered UAE F-35's, they can now buy F-35's as they have now bought 80 Block 60's (these planes would fulfill UAE's requirement until F-35's arrive in UAE airforce). So u see US plays a very dirty game, n that is wut it is doin with India right now!!!

u dont need Rafale for Naval role u have ur Mig-29's n Jaguars for that i think.


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## z9-ec

nitesh said:


> Well as per various reports I see, india's per capita income is still higher then pakistan, as well as there economy is much bigger then pakistan. So the conditions are improving at rapid pace in India.



Per capita 2007(nominal current values)

Pakistan - 916.693 USD

India - 826.871 USD

IMF

World Bank 2006 estimates

India per capita
Nominal - $820
PPP - $2460

Pakistan per capita
Nominal - $800
PPP - $2410

according to the reports above it is incorrect to assume India has a better per capita than Pakistan.


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## asaad-ul-islam

can all of u guys, just grow up? Please? 

this is not a pakistan vs. india forum. if our countries can't have peace, please don't ruin it for us.


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## nitesh

One more good point about rafale is that they are evolution from mirage so the logistics should not be much of a problem for IAF, also typhoon by design is air dominance fighter, for that IAF has already decided on SU-30MKI.


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## ejaz007

All fighters competing are good in their own ways. It seems Gripen has been neglected to some extent while considering the winner. Sweeden never has won a big order like this one so they might be willing to offer more technology transfer than others.
Keep your fingers crossed.


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## ejaz007

Have a look at the bid submitted by gripen. By seeing the size of the documents one can safely say it shall be another one year atleast before leading contender emerges. Similar size bids have been submitted by other competitors.

Gripen - The wings of your nation - Gripen IN next generation fighter for India - The Independent Choice


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## nitesh

Your point is correct but Gripen is very similar in terms responsibilities it can cater to LCA Tejas, also it will add to the logistical burden of IAF, anyway whosoever wins the contract should comply to 50% of T0T . It seems IAF wants to standerdize in three caterories

Heavy Air dominance fighter: SU-30MKI
MRCA for various roles: Current inventory of Mirage, Mig29, + newly inducted MRCA winner, also once Mirage and Mig29 retires MRCA will be sole operator in this space
So I feel Rafale and Mig35 fits the bill perfectly as the not only reduce the logistical problems but also help in standardizing the weapon mix.

Light fighters/Interceptors: LCA to make the numbers with the help of MRCA winner in terms of Engine tech etc. 

The heavy category will be made stronger by PAK-FA which seems like get inducted by 2020-25 in-spite of the time lines given by media as 2015 or so.

With the ToT offered India will commence development of MCA that will fill in the gaps.


Correct me if I am wrong pls.

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## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> Your point is correct but Gripen is very similar in terms responsibilities it can cater to LCA Tejas, also it will add to the logistical burden of IAF, anyway whosoever wins the contract should comply to 50&#37; of T0T . It seems IAF wants to standerdize in three caterories
> 
> Heavy Air dominance fighter: SU-30MKI
> MRCA for various roles: Current inventory of Mirage, Mig29, + newly inducted MRCA winner, also once Mirage and Mig29 retires MRCA will be sole operator in this space
> So I feel Rafale and Mig35 fits the bill perfectly as the not only reduce the logistical problems but also help in standardizing the weapon mix.



dude come on... Gripen is a living reality while LCA is a dream and yet to prove itself around 2025.. 
EF-2000 or Rafael are out of the picture because its simply too expensive and KSA paid $40+ billion for its just 72! 

this is how i see IAF future.
SU-30MKI
MRCA -Mig-35/Gripen 
if LCA fails then expect same Mig-35/Gripen combo 
upgraded Mig-29 and Mirage-2000-5-9
PAK FA



Aneeq Rashid said:


> Can some one tell me if PAf goes for russian plane what kind of aircrdt can paf gets



i highly dough PAF will acquire any new MRCA from Russia in 2010-2020 time frame... though if doors are opened i think PAF must take full advantage of updating non western fleet and improve its defence field...


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## Malang

23march said:


> dude come on... Gripen is a living reality while LCA is a dream and yet to prove itself around 2025..



Have you seen LCA flying and firing missiles??
LCA no doubt will need to pass a whole gamut of tests before it is inducted but it will be inducted of which there is no doubt at the moment.. 



> EF-2000 or Rafael are out of the picture because its simply too expensive and KSA paid $40+ billion for its just 72!



No and No.. 

If Typhoon and Rafale are participating that means their craft are within price limits else why would they enter when the price range is well known in advance.. 

Saudis paid ~8-9bn$ for 72 craft.. 
Bloomberg.com: Europe

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## Jliu

It's quite apparent to the more informed members of this forum that due to budgetary constraints and force structure the PAF's answer to an IAF MRCA is a two tiered system of three LCAs w/organic ADS. I believe that is all there is to say on this subject and the discussion should move to the effectiveness of such a system. Hardware by itself does not confer capability at any stage in the combat cycle.


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## Luftwaffe

Dear Friends & Foes....
China is going to replace half of its J-7/Q-5 with F-7MF i suspect so..which has even lower cost than FC-1/JF-17 this is what i believe. I don't know if some of you agree with me or not..I still have question why is china spending weirdly on so many projects like toally new Q-5s, J-8, F-7MF, Flying Lepo. I think china should stop spending more and ditch this almost all Q-5/J-8 upgradations keep lower high tech fleets and replace maximum with J-10/JF-17. 
We all know JF-17 is far better than Q-5, J-7 almost all variants (not talking about F-7MF don't know much about it). To me project like Flying lepos is totally waste of money all of that money should have been diverted to the second generation Super J-10 if the concept is there at all or in more production of J-10A, and its indigenous engine. Again I think if chinese divert its spending from Q-5/J-7/J-8/Flying lepos to only J-10 and JF-17(fc-1) It will save hell lot of money for them and they will have 2 high tech planes that will perform better than those 30 years old Planes. What do you guys think isn't it weird for our friend china to spend like that what are they experimenting with??


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## x_man

*@ Luftwaffe*

Well, once you have more than 3000 jets and 5000 pilots to take care of , one cannot have only J-10s or JF-17s or SU-27/30s&#8230;.Can they ??? Want to know the reason?&#8230;Again the same old Economics...

Most of the airforces have a Base Jet&#8230;i.e. the first fighter that a young graduate flies, polishes his fighting skills and to gain enough experience on it to prepare him/her self to convert onto the more sophisticated jets and so on&#8230;.that&#8217;s how generally the fighter training works&#8230;The current base fighter for PAF is F-7, for IAF its Mig-21 , USAF its F-16 and for PLAAF its also J-7, Q-5 &#8230;.The typical characteristics of base fighter are that they are cheaper, have simplified avionics / systems , sturdy , easy to handle in all flight regimes, cost-effective to operate and they are always in abundance&#8230;.

Back in 70s and 80s, PLAAF operated around 3000 J-6s and that&#8217;s how they still operate: A force of sheer numbers. However, with their economic growth, advancement in technology and global exposure, there is a definite improvement in the quality of their fighters and ultimately numbers will come down while maintaining a qualitative edge. But until then, to satisfy the appetite of fighter flying for their huge pilot force, they will still rely on numbers and you will continue to see the J-7s, Q-5s , J-8 etc..

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## p2prada

x_man said:


> *@ Luftwaffe*
> 
> Well, once you have more than 3000 jets and 5000 pilots to take care of , one cannot have only J-10s or JF-17s or SU-27/30s.Can they ??? Want to know the reason?Again the same old Economics...
> 
> Most of the airforces have a Base Jeti.e. the first fighter that a young graduate flies, polishes his fighting skills and to gain enough experience on it to prepare him/her self to convert onto the more sophisticated jets and so on.thats how generally the fighter training worksThe current base fighter for PAF is F-7, for IAF its Mig-21 , USAF its F-16 and for PLAAF its also J-7, Q-5 .The typical characteristics of base fighter are that they are cheaper, have simplified avionics / systems , sturdy , easy to handle in all flight regimes, cost-effective to operate and they are always in abundance.
> 
> Back in 70s and 80s, PLAAF operated around 3000 J-6s and thats how they still operate: A force of sheer numbers. However, with their economic growth, advancement in technology and global exposure, there is a definite improvement in the quality of their fighters and ultimately numbers will come down while maintaining a qualitative edge. But until then, to satisfy the appetite of fighter flying for their huge pilot force, they will still rely on numbers and you will continue to see the J-7s, Q-5s , J-8 etc..



What???

Do the Chinese prefer the Js and Qs over the JF-17????

If they really want to satisfy the appetite of fighter flying for their huge pilot force then atleast a few JF-17s is in order rather than just keeping it for export.


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## Myth_buster_1

p2prada said:


> What???
> 
> Do the Chinese prefer the Js and Qs over the JF-17????
> 
> If they really want to satisfy the appetite of fighter flying for their huge pilot force then atleast a few JF-17s is in order rather than just keeping it for export.



each air force have their own requirements. like PAF may prefer F-16 block 15 over chinese J-10 and china prefers J-10 or twin engine MRCA over JF-17. recently their was an article on possible chinese jf-17 purchase.

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## x_man

p2prada said:


> What???
> 
> Do the Chinese prefer the Js and Qs over the JF-17????
> 
> If they really want to satisfy the appetite of fighter flying for their huge pilot force then atleast a few JF-17s is in order rather than just keeping it for export.



You probably never read my post completely and have started to jump to the conclusion&#8230;

I was speaking in relation to the *base jet*&#8230;.At least read the first two and the last two lines again of my last post&#8230;Please also have a look at the PLAAF line up and you should get the answer to your query...


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## Kharian_Beast

I like the idea of this thread and believe that this question should be taken seriously. Within the next 5 years India will be operating 4.5-5 gen aircraft as their front line fighters, all packing AESA, BVR, with top of the line engines and avionics, helmet mounted sights and thrust vectoring or super cruise. This is worrying because our F-16 will be hard pressed to match a Rafale or Typhoon, even the Super Hornet would cause serious problems with its radar, and our F-16 will lose its advantage due to sheer numbers alone. I don't want to compare the JF-17 yet to a Block 60 F-16 or a modified Gripen, so we need a serious deterrent...J10 or FC-20 is basically a legacy era F-16, what's the point of buying them? They have never been tested in battle and China only has 100 of them while the F-16 has proven itself and there are more than 4,000 flying around in the world today.

And remember, whatever you hear, J10B or Super Dragon is a paper dragon and will remain one for the foreseeable future. By the time China puts one in the air for evaluation, India will have started inducting MRCA candidate. 

We need to evaluate real aircraft in a similar manner in a similar schedule as the MRCA program otherwise the balance in air power will be completely with India if it isn't already due to the SU-30 threat. 

I am against purchasing 2-3 squadrons of FC-20. Maximum amount of capital should be reserved for our next front line fighter, or the expenditure can be shifted to JF-17 program instead. 

My personal choice would be Eurofighter if India doesn't choose it. If they were to choose it I would go with Gripen NG. Let j10 develop and mature into what it was supposed to be, and once it has, let it be incorporated amongst the Typhoon or Gripen squadrons. Having the right fighter planes is much more important than any other equipment issue in the entire military.


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## Kharian_Beast

I also think ToT is not that vital for a small order (under 50 aircraft).


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## p2prada

x_man said:


> You probably never read my post completely and have started to jump to the conclusion&#8230;
> 
> I was speaking in relation to the *base jet*&#8230;.At least read the first two and the last two lines again of my last post&#8230;Please also have a look at the PLAAF line up and you should get the answer to your query...



zzz

Base jet or frontline fighter. PLAAF can afford it. Why are they going for a lot of Js and Qs when they can atleast invest in JF-17.
Instead of inducting 5 squadrons of Qs, they can invest in 5 squadrons of JF-17.

And Please, PLAAF is not inducting the old fighters because they need planes to fly. They are inducting them cause even in todays world these old vintage fighters still pack a lot of firepower. Why else do u think PAF is inducting PGs or IAF with Bisons.

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## p2prada

Kharian_Beast said:


> I like the idea of this thread and believe that this question should be taken seriously. Within the next 5 years India will be operating 4.5-5 gen aircraft as their front line fighters, all packing AESA, BVR, with top of the line engines and avionics, helmet mounted sights and thrust vectoring or super cruise. This is worrying because our F-16 will be hard pressed to match a Rafale or Typhoon, even the Super Hornet would cause serious problems with its radar, and our F-16 will lose its advantage due to sheer numbers alone. I don't want to compare the JF-17 yet to a Block 60 F-16 or a modified Gripen, so we need a serious deterrent...J10 or FC-20 is basically a legacy era F-16, what's the point of buying them? They have never been tested in battle and China only has 100 of them while the F-16 has proven itself and there are more than 4,000 flying around in the world today.
> 
> And remember, whatever you hear, J10B or Super Dragon is a paper dragon and will remain one for the foreseeable future. By the time China puts one in the air for evaluation, India will have started inducting MRCA candidate.
> 
> We need to evaluate real aircraft in a similar manner in a similar schedule as the MRCA program otherwise the balance in air power will be completely with India if it isn't already due to the SU-30 threat.
> 
> I am against purchasing 2-3 squadrons of FC-20. Maximum amount of capital should be reserved for our next front line fighter, or the expenditure can be shifted to JF-17 program instead.
> 
> My personal choice would be Eurofighter if India doesn't choose it. If they were to choose it I would go with Gripen NG. Let j10 develop and mature into what it was supposed to be, and once it has, let it be incorporated amongst the Typhoon or Gripen squadrons. Having the right fighter planes is much more important than any other equipment issue in the entire military.



Thank You for being realistic. There are a few more choices for PAF. Rafale is a good choice. It is actually one of the best options for both IAF and PAF compared to EF or SH. Gripen NG is a good option too.


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## p2prada

Kharian_Beast said:


> I also think ToT is not that vital for a small order (under 50 aircraft).



I beg to differ. ToT is vital for any number of planes you operate. It considerably reduces maintainance costs and servicing. It is just that ToT will increase the bill for purchasing the planes.


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## Kharian_Beast

p2prada said:


> I beg to differ. ToT is vital for any number of planes you operate. It considerably reduces maintainance costs and servicing. It is just that ToT will increase the bill for purchasing the planes.



Yes though there might be roadblocks for AESA transfer. For the MRCA, have you guys been offered ToT on the western radars as well? I was under the impression that only Russia was offering full tot including radar and that France was looking for funds for it's Rafale AESA which wasn't part of the Dassault proposal for the Rafale.


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## Kharian_Beast

p2prada said:


> Thank You for being realistic. There are a few more choices for PAF. Rafale is a good choice. It is actually one of the best options for both IAF and PAF compared to EF or SH. Gripen NG is a good option too.



Rafale carrier variant would be nice option for India, though for some reason I think Super Hornet will be favored. In which ways do you think Rafale is superior to EF for India and Pak? Just curious, I don't know too much about these planes other than the European consortium fulfilled all orders and obligations while France is still scurrying to fill its own orders and find customers. The data regarding the aircraft seems to point in a small favor to EF in terms of range, thrust to weight, A2G capability (current) and WVR maneuverability though that's only from what I've glanced over recently. Rafale has had some problems in Afghanistan I hear as well though nothing major.


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## p2prada

Kharian_Beast said:


> Yes though there might be roadblocks for AESA transfer. For the MRCA, have you guys been offered ToT on the western radars as well? I was under the impression that only Russia was offering full tot including radar and that France was looking for funds for it's Rafale AESA which wasn't part of the Dassault proposal for the Rafale.




France to sell Rafale fighter to India


> Paris, Nov 05: The French government has cleared the full transfer of technology
> for the Rafale combat jet that is one of the six aircraft in contention for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 fighters in a deal worth USD 10 billion, its manufacturer Dassault Aviation says.
> 
> *"When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces,*" JPHP Chabriol, Dassault's senior vice president for military sales, told a group of visiting Indian journalists at the company's headquarters here.
> 
> *"The way we work, we first have to obtain clearance of the government before putting in our proposal. If we win the order, we can begin work on transferring technology from day one - unlike our competition,"* he added.
> 
> The technology transfer would include that of a cutting edge radar that gives the Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), Chabriol maintained, adding that the software source code would also be provided with the equipment.
> 
> The Advanced Extended Search Array (AESA) radar that Dassault is offering is still under development by French aerospace giant Thales, a partner in the Rafale project, and is expected to be integrated with the aircraft by 2012, around which time the IAF is expected to narrow down its choice of aircraft.
> 
> "We have full faith in the competency of Thales to deliver a top of the line AESA radar," Chabriol added.
> 
> Transfer of technology is a key clause in the Defence Policy-2006 (DPP-2006) that governs India's purchases of military hardware. Two other companies in the fray - Boeing and European conglomerate Eurofighter - are also offering an AESA radar with their F/A-18 Super Hornet and Typhoon respectively but say the transfer of this technology would be dependent to the extent the American government permits as the radar's manufacturer is US electronics giant Raytheon.
> 
> At least one of these two companies has said they would definitely not transfer the software source code that enables the programming of the radar. What this means is that the IAF would have to specify the mission parameters to enable the manufacturer configure the radar.
> 
> Defence analysts point out that this could seriously compromise India's national security as the IAF would not be able to re-programme the radar should it wish to at a later stage.
> 
> *"This is not an issue with us. We will not only fully transfer the technology for the AESA radar but also provide the software source code so that that the IAF can programme it in the way it wishes to,"* Chabriol said in response to a specific query.
> 
> Apart from the Rafale, the F/A-18 and the Typhoon, the other aircraft in the fray are the Lockheed Martin F-16, the Saab Grippen and the MiG-35, which is essentially an upgraded version of the MiG-29 that the IAF already operates.
> 
> The IAF had floated its global tender for the jets in September 2007 and these were opened earlier this year. The technical bids are currently being evaluated after which all the six aircraft will be put through a rigorous testing process in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.
> 
> The first is meant to gauge the aircraft's ability to operate in the humid conditions of south, the second their effectiveness in the deserts of Rajasthan and the third to study their suitability in the icy Himalayan heights of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> By the time the evaluation process is complete, the size of the order is likely to rise to around 200 jets, as the IAF, which is down to 32 squadrons from a high of 39-1/2, is expected to see a further depletion of its fleet due to the retirement of some its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 aircraft. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 squadrons.
> 
> Chabriol also pointed out that being 100 percent French gave Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the technology transfer issue.
> 
> "The Grippen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US government's approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament (the US Congress).
> 
> *"This legislative approval is not an issue in our case,"* Chabriol added.



We are currently discussing this in the Indian MRCA thread. 


At first Dassault did not have an AESA. Now, Thales has promised to deliver on the AESA by 2012. So, AESA was also added to the shopping list. We are not concerned with French R&D budget problems though. 
Anyways, its not like the french are poor like the russians.

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## Kharian_Beast

Kharian_Beast said:


> In which ways do you think Rafale is superior to EF for India and Pak?



Oops...Raytheon makes the best pieces on the EF


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## Kharian_Beast

Kharian_Beast said:


> Oops...Raytheon makes the best pieces on the EF



60% of the Gripen is American parts as well...

Time to reconsider Rafale ?


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## p2prada

Kharian_Beast said:


> Rafale carrier variant would be nice option for India, though for some reason I think Super Hornet will be favored.



None of these fit on our ACs. We are going ahead with Mig-29k and N-LCA for our carriers.




> In which ways do you think Rafale is superior to EF for India and Pak?



Superiority is not an issue. Both planes are good. It is just that the French are very good suppliers. Both IAF and PAF will not reel under economic sanctions. France will not place economic sanctions based on American whims and fantasies.
Other than that, French products have been in use by IAF and PAF for over 30 years now. So, familiarization with french policies and technology.



> Just curious, I don't know too much about these planes other than the European consortium fulfilled all orders and obligations while France is still scurrying to fill its own orders and find customers.



Rafale went through some rough patches through its development. Rafale development cycle is longer than the EF. But, the plane is ready now. So, even if they fail in getting customers a single Indian order will boost its image.



> The data regarding the aircraft seems to point in a small favor to EF in terms of range, thrust to weight, A2G capability (current) and WVR maneuverability though that's only from what I've glanced over recently. Rafale has had some problems in Afghanistan I hear as well though nothing major.



Yes, the EF has better range, payload, T/W etc. But, I dont see why the french will not be able to deliver on their plane. 
It will be a pretty successful bird in the near future.


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## p2prada

Kharian_Beast said:


> 60% of the Gripen is American parts as well...
> 
> Time to reconsider Rafale ?



LOL yeah.


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## Kharian_Beast

Well, I guess I'm a Rafale fan now. I like the way France responded in that link you gave earlier, they are really trying to differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack in a good way. 

I'm going on a separate tangent here but if India rejects the Mig 35 would that result in strained Pak-Fa cooperation? That would leave India in a precarious position, no F-35 (if a non - US plane is chosen), no Pak FA.


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## Imran Khan

*Opinion: Gripen hard to beat in Indian MMRCA contest*
Jane's is not responsible for the content within or linking from Industry Links pages.
While there is no shortage of fighter aircraft procurement programmes currently under way, the most eagerly anticipated contest is undoubtedly India's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement for at least 126 aircraft. 

The six contenders have now submitted their proposals: Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian Aircraft Corporation's (RAC's) MiG with the MiG-35 and the Saab JAS 39 Gripen. Arguably each aircraft stands a fighting chance of securing the lucrative USD10 billion contract. 

India continues to have a close relationship with Dassault, which supplied the Indian Air Force (IAF) with Mirage 2000 fighters in the 1980s. However, given the IAF's emphasis on future upgrades for its MMRCA aircraft, the lack of operators of the Rafale is likely to be seen as a significant issue. 

The Rafale and the Typhoon could also struggle with the issue of cost. Both are relatively large twin-engined platforms, which will significantly increase operating costs compared with the single-engined MiG-21 fleet it will replace. 

The MiG-35 is seen by many as a strong contender. India has a very close relationship with Russia, which has provided the majority of its equipment over the past 30 years. However, over the past year India's relationship with Russia with regards to arms contracts has soured. 

The two US contenders seem well placed in terms of price and capability as India seeks to establish closer military bonds with Washington. However the F-16 is hindered by the fact that Pakistan already operates the type. Furthermore the aircraft is already being phased out by the US Air Force. 

The Boeing Super Hornet does not suffer from these issues. However, one unresolved issue with regards to both US platforms is the authorisation of technology transfer. 

Saab holds a strong hand with the Gripen. The aircraft is single engined, which will keep operating costs low, upgrades are already being defined under the Gripen Demonstrator programme and acquisition costs are highly competitive. 

Image: The aircraft selected as India's MMRCA will replace its MiG-21s (pictured) (Patrick


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## Kharian_Beast

imran khan said:


> *Opinion: Gripen hard to beat in Indian MMRCA contest*
> Jane's is not responsible for the content within or linking from Industry Links pages.
> While there is no shortage of fighter aircraft procurement programmes currently under way, the most eagerly anticipated contest is undoubtedly India's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement for at least 126 aircraft.
> 
> The six contenders have now submitted their proposals: Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian Aircraft Corporation's (RAC's) MiG with the MiG-35 and the Saab JAS 39 Gripen. Arguably each aircraft stands a fighting chance of securing the lucrative USD10 billion contract.
> 
> India continues to have a close relationship with Dassault, which supplied the Indian Air Force (IAF) with Mirage 2000 fighters in the 1980s. However, given the IAF's emphasis on future upgrades for its MMRCA aircraft, the lack of operators of the Rafale is likely to be seen as a significant issue.
> 
> The Rafale and the Typhoon could also struggle with the issue of cost. Both are relatively large twin-engined platforms, which will significantly increase operating costs compared with the single-engined MiG-21 fleet it will replace.
> 
> The MiG-35 is seen by many as a strong contender. India has a very close relationship with Russia, which has provided the majority of its equipment over the past 30 years. However, over the past year India's relationship with Russia with regards to arms contracts has soured.
> 
> The two US contenders seem well placed in terms of price and capability as India seeks to establish closer military bonds with Washington. However the F-16 is hindered by the fact that Pakistan already operates the type. Furthermore the aircraft is already being phased out by the US Air Force.
> 
> The Boeing Super Hornet does not suffer from these issues. However, one unresolved issue with regards to both US platforms is the authorisation of technology transfer.
> 
> Saab holds a strong hand with the Gripen. The aircraft is single engined, which will keep operating costs low, upgrades are already being defined under the Gripen Demonstrator programme and acquisition costs are highly competitive.
> 
> Image: The aircraft selected as India's MMRCA will replace its MiG-21s (pictured) (Patrick



Interesting though Janes doesn't really justify the title in this article, I think all the contenders have the same chance as the Gripen because India will look at more factors than just cost at this critical evaluation stage.


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## p2prada

Kharian_Beast said:


> Well, I guess I'm a Rafale fan now. I like the way France responded in that link you gave earlier, they are really trying to differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack in a good way.



Yes and If india chooses Rafale, other countries thinking of buying western aircraft will be keen to find out why india chose the rafale compared to Gripen, EF, F-16/18, and Mig-35. This will also help further Dassault's cause to get more customers. 



> I'm going on a separate tangent here but if India rejects the Mig 35 would that result in strained Pak-Fa cooperation? That would leave India in a precarious position, no F-35, no Pak FA.



Not true. The PAKFA is a completely different project that comes under the jurisdiction of Sukhoi. The Mig-35 belongs to the MiG corp. Sukhoi will actually be happy that MiG was not chosen. The russian companies have their own competition, similar to how Lockheed Martin and Boeing are competing for the MRCA with their F-16 and F-18 respectively. Anyways, we are already buying a few Mig-29k from the Mig corp for our carriers.
The F-35s will come with "strings attached." So, they will not be a good option in the long run.


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## p2prada

Kharian_Beast said:


> Interesting though Janes doesn't really justify the title in this article, I think all the contenders have the same chance as the Gripen because India will look at more factors than just cost at this critical evaluation stage.



The Janes article was probably written Before Dassault allowed Full ToT with AESA. I believe Rafale has the best chance now. Followed by Gripen and Mig-35.


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## daredevil

Isn't Rafale very expensive?.


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## Kharian_Beast

daredevil said:


> Isn't Rafale very expensive?.



Yes, second most expensive platform being considered for MMRCA after EF-T, roughly 75-85 million USD. Someone with exact figure can back me up.


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## p2prada

$75-85 million sounds right. But we will be producing the aircraft in india itself, using composite materials. The price will come down.


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## Jliu

Kharian_Beast said:


> I like the idea of this thread and believe that this question should be taken seriously



Good to see someone thinking. Despite the horrific budgetary crunch that has 
all but crippled the economy such issues should be considered given the shifting nature of the strategic balance.



> Within the next 5 years India will be operating 4.5-5 gen aircraft as their front line fighters, all packing AESA, BVR, with top of the line engines and avionics, helmet mounted sights and thrust vectoring or super cruise.



They will not but that is not the point here. The point is that all assets will be networked via datalink into a AAD grid and be capable of situational awareness with the consequential impact of overall increase in sortie efficiency as their recent forays into Red Flag reveal with a little help from the Colonel if you havn't already seen from youtube.



> This is worrying because our F-16 will be hard pressed to match a Rafale or Typhoon, even the Super Hornet would cause serious problems with its radar, and our F-16 will lose its advantage due to sheer numbers alone.



The F-18E/F block II as ordered by us and if by India will likely be the most significant peer threat to the PAF in the next two decades given what is known in defence circles about the "PAK-FA paper aeroplane" and Late Comiing Aircraft of the IAF. 



> I don't want to compare the JF-17 yet to a Block 60 F-16 or a modified Gripen, so we need a serious deterrent...J10 or FC-20 is basically a legacy era F-16, what's the point of buying them? They have never been tested in battle and China only has 100 of them while the F-16 has proven itself and there are more than 4,000 flying around in the world today.



The point is that your pollies get in nice and cozy with the Chinese and they give you a bit of rice In other words some ToT so industry can feel good about local co-production etc. I was at the Zhuhai Airshow recently and I can tell you while 'clean' J-10s looked and flew rather spectacularly as all fighters do when in that configuration let me assure you when loaded up in counter air at OPRED with 6x AAM winftip, 2x Droptank centreline and 2x ordnance mid pylons the thing won't be half as maneuverable as they show it to the fanboys and politicians. 



> We need to evaluate real aircraft in a similar manner in a similar schedule as the MRCA program otherwise the balance in air power will be completely with India if it isn't already due to the SU-30 threat.
> 
> I am against purchasing 2-3 squadrons of FC-20. Maximum amount of capital should be reserved for our next front line fighter, or the expenditure can be shifted to JF-17 program instead.
> 
> My personal choice would be Eurofighter if India doesn't choose it. If they were to choose it I would go with Gripen NG. Let j10 develop and mature into what it was supposed to be, and once it has, let it be incorporated amongst the Typhoon or Gripen squadrons. Having the right fighter planes is much more important than any other equipment issue in the entire military.



Used Gripens from the Swedish AF upgraded to C/D standard with a fit of 8x AMRAAM is more than enough in my opinion given compatabilities with the Erieye system with cueing offloads able to be directed from the AWACS. The short legs of the Gripen don't matter as they'll mainly be counter air anyway. Scrap the J-10 plans and the JF-17 program and use the funds for 2nd hand Falcon OCUs and the above.

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## Myth_buster_1

Jliu said:


> Scrap the J-10 plans and the JF-17 program and use the funds for 2nd hand Falcon OCUs and the above.



even though you are one of the most military intellectual member in this forum but with all due respect your last line killed all of your reputation. 
why scrap the J-10 when we dont even know what PAF variant is gonna be like? why scrap JF-17 for 100 odd high hours clock F-16s? Current 32 PAF F-16 and 14 ex-PAK/USN f-16 is a vise decision to give them MLU. PAF is only interested in very few hours clocked airframes like in the recently released F-16's case. the upgraded F-16 will have only 25 max years of service. and lol do you want us to go through US strings attached with F-16s? If their was no JF-17 or FC-20 program for PAF the US would have probably made us do 10 times more of the dirty work for them then now what we are doing.

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## Jliu

PC said:


> why scrap the J-10 when we dont even know what PAF variant is gonna be like?



In response to that I can ask you: When is the PAF variant approaching IOC?
Do you know the technical and operational parameters of the PLAAF variant of the J-10 or for that matter does Pakistan? How does a J-10 compare to Falcon MLU/OCU variants in battlespace application?-by that I'm talking situational awareness/networking, a DEMONSTRATED BVR capability behind all the Chinese hype about the SD-10 which has apparently on begun limited trials and most importantly are the Chinese going to give Pakistan full access to the supply management chain for the J-10 with regards for full servicibility of the radar unit, EW Suite and sensor suite? 



> why scrap JF-17 for 100 odd high hours clock F-16s? Current 32 PAF F-16 and 14 ex-PAK/USN f-16 is a vise decision to give them MLU. PAF is only interested in very few hours clocked airframes like in the recently released F-16's case. the upgraded F-16 will have only 25 max years of service. and lol do you want us to go through US strings attached with F-16s? If their was no JF-17 or FC-20 program for PAF the US would have probably made us do 10 times more of the dirty work for them then now what we are doing.



Why do you think Jordan ordered 25year+ Falcon airframes and continue to order after numerous Pakistani and Chinese presentations re: the JF-17 on the parameters of life cycle cost, purchase price, customisation and integration? 

Because the Falcon is proven and the others are not. Because the Falcon offers true strike/interdiction/counter air capability with battlespace awareness that in many cases confer first shot advantages over adversaries that do not. Age doesn't really apply in these cases as the Benelux countries maintain their airframes well and a MLU w/ centreline barrel replacement (remanufacture) will get you an airframe just about new-ish. Same applies with the Gripen which in counter air is truly outstanding not only in the much quoted fanboy areas of maenueverability, how many AAMs can be carried etc. but in the informational awareness grid arena.

The JF-17 and J-10 cannot be "plugged in" to AEW assets the PAF has and even when a datalink solution is found it will lag behind full Link 16 Block III standards found now on Western designs. Lack of bandwith means you might as well use GCI when up against your particular peer adversary. 

If you've watched the Red Flag video of the performance of the IAF several things the Colonel said should be on your mind.

#1 Despite several instances of fratricide the IAF is improving Information dominance across the board in particular the linkage between the MIG-21BM and MKI assets via Elbit M-II for "sharing" targeting information for BVR. In other words you have a "swarm" of expendable Bisons capable of AA-12 BVR shots linked to Phalcon AWACS, Green Pine Search Radar and MKI shooters ALL able to "see" deep within Pakistan-indeed as far as the Western Iranian border/Iraq.
#2 The Indians as I've repeated don't particularly care about losses-you do.
#3 The induction of about a hundred-two hundred MRCA (I bet Super Hornet) able to be directly plugged into that grid and you think the J-10 and JF-17 are the answer?

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## Myth_buster_1

Jliu said:


> In response to that I can ask you: When is the PAF variant approaching IOC?
> Do you know the technical and operational parameters of the PLAAF variant of the J-10 or for that matter does Pakistan? How does a J-10 compare to Falcon MLU/OCU variants in battlespace application?-by that I'm talking situational awareness/networking, a DEMONSTRATED BVR capability behind all the Chinese hype about the SD-10 which has apparently on begun limited trials and most importantly are the Chinese going to give Pakistan full access to the supply management chain for the J-10 with regards for full servicibility of the radar unit, EW Suite and sensor suite? ?



like i said. we dont even know PAF J-10 variant but from various source it is suppose to have European avionics and possibly radar with some structural improvements. the technical detail still remains classified so you shouldnt jump to conclusion that FC-20 sucks simply because its chinese made. i am only going to stick to PAF ACM words that FC-20 will be a more advance fighter then current J-10and F-16 block 52.



> Why do you think Jordan ordered 25year+ Falcon airframes and continue to order after numerous Pakistani and Chinese presentations re: the JF-17 on the parameters of life cycle cost, purchase price, customisation and integration?



dont compare Jordan with pakistan ASR. the RJAF fly less so they will be ok with high clocked airframes while PAF will be not. your assumption of RJAF rejection of JF-17s over 2nd hand F-16s is wrong. PAF has just recently inducted 2nd hand F-16s and plans for more in the future but i see no reduction in JF-17 orders or total rejection over F-16. Jordan is still very much interested in jF-17s and so are most of arab states.



> The JF-17 and J-10 cannot be "plugged in" to AEW assets the PAF has and even when a datalink solution is found it will lag behind full Link 16 Block III standards found now on Western designs. Lack of bandwith means you might as well use GCI when up against your particular peer adversary.



well thats your assumstion but PAF is working on block 2 JF-17 and FC-20 for data linking Erieye as well as ZDK-03. 



> #1 Despite several instances of fratricide the IAF is improving Information dominance across the board in particular the linkage between the MIG-21BM and MKI assets via Elbit M-II for "sharing" targeting information for BVR. In other words you have a "swarm" of expendable Bisons capable of AA-12 BVR shots linked to Phalcon AWACS, Green Pine Search Radar and MKI shooters ALL *able to "see" deep within Pakistan-indeed as far as the Western Iranian border/Iraq.*



their is no dough of IAF superiority over PAF in BVR scenario but that gap will be enormously shortened in 1-2 years, but i am sure PAF still today has counter measures. 

now thats what i call being ignorant. Iraq does not even border pakistan let alone Phalcon detecting as far as 600km+ in PAK western borders. dont for get the long range SAM factors.



> #3 The induction of about a hundred-two hundred MRCA (I bet Super Hornet) able to be directly plugged into that grid and you think the J-10 and JF-17 are the answer?



no FC-20 and JF-17 are not the answer to 4.5 generation MRCA as a matter of fact even F-16s are not the answer to super hornets but it will work for PAF.


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## Jliu

PC said:


> like i said. we dont even know PAF J-10 variant but from various source it is suppose to have European avionics and possibly radar with some structural improvements. the technical detail still remains classified so you shouldn&#8217;t jump to conclusion that FC-20 sucks simply because its chinese made. i am only going to stick to PAF ACM words that FC-20 will be a more advance fighter then current J-10and F-16 block 52.



The operative words here you have used are "supposed" and "possibly". I'll allow others to draw their own conclusions.



> dont compare Jordan with pakistan ASR. the RJAF fly less so they will be ok with high clocked airframes while PAF will be not. your assumption of RJAF rejection of JF-17s over 2nd hand F-16s is wrong. PAF has just recently inducted 2nd hand F-16s and plans for more in the future but i see no reduction in JF-17 orders or total rejection over F-16. Jordan is still very much interested in jF-17s and so are most of arab states.



It has nothing to do with "high clocked airframes" if you've bothered to read my last post. MLU = factory remanufacture standard despite not actually in many cases delvered to the factory. The RJAF capability wise I can state is second only to the Israelis in the Greater Mid East and believe me they think the JF-17 is slightly "obsolete" and I'm putting it nicely. Jordan still interested in the JF-17? You're talking to an adviser to the RJAF here Why would any of the other Arab states be interested in a Chinese made third gen fighter approaching block obsolescence if they have the cash to buy Western? Contrary to your opinion I am not stating Western countries are the "best" or anything like that. I'm saying when it comes to procurement countries with cash to burn buy Western hardware because it works. Simple as that. Even the Indians with the MKI have Western avionics with an Israeli 'addition' to the much vaunted Bars radar.



> well thats your assumstion but PAF is working on block 2 JF-17 and FC-20 for data linking Erieye as well as ZDK-03.



My assumption is right. ZDK-03? You mean the Chinese AWACS peoject? Do you know the performance of the Balance Beam rotardome? IOC? All the parameters re: any aircraft project I've stated in my last post? 



> their is no dough of IAF superiority over PAF in BVR scenario but that gap will be enormously shortened in 1-2 years, but i am sure PAF still today has counter measures.



Well I hope they do.



> now thats what i call being ignorant. Iraq does not even border pakistan let alone Phalcon detecting as far as 600km+ in PAK western borders. dont for get the long range SAM factors.



I study this for a living. What do you do? Read Carefully. I stated the overall sit. awareness range of the Indian *system* approximates that range; in other words the system is known to cover large parts of Iran. A system is not a piece of hardware. It fuses information and features multiple assets linked-like the Green Pine radar. 

What about the LR SAMs? Whose LR SAM networks? Neither Pakistan nor Iran have these.



> no FC-20 and JF-17 are not the answer to 4.5 generation MRCA as a matter of fact even F-16s are not the answer to super hornets but it will work for PAF.



Again read what I've written in my previous post. With the JF-17 and/or Chinese AWACS if and when it arrives in effect you'll be facing a superior Israeli sourced 'swarm' with an inferior Chinese sourced 'swarm', numbers ceteris paribus when in reality they are not. In other words you'll be using a Subaru Impreza WRX to race a Gallardo if such a crude analogy suffices. 

Since cost is such an issue for the PAF why is the J-10 being pursued? Increased infrastructure/TRADOC costs, maintenance and supply chain costs and vulnerabilities. Planes don't just come with 8x AAM and a pilot. Get that into your head. They come with 10+ support personnel, fuel trucks, controllers, avionics techs, ordanance handlers that eat up cash (personnel costs). That isn't an issue for the Indians but it is critical for the PAF.


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## ejaz007

I think the PAF has already made up its mind regarding its options for the future. This is the way I see PAF in the near future after 2010.

JF17, F-16, FC-20, ROSE upgraded Mirages and some F-7s.

This is what they have come up at the moment taking into account all constraints especially financial. In case the financial situation improves say around 2010 they might replace Mirage and F-7 with some european fighter.

We must also remember that these type of projects don't start over night and take time and money to complete. At the moment some of the most costliest projects of PAF are going on namely JF-17, F-16, FC-20 and Erieye. Untill at least two to three of these are completed they wont go for another one simply because of financial reasons.


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## blain2

Jliu said:


> In response to that I can ask you: When is the PAF variant approaching IOC?
> Do you know the technical and operational parameters of the PLAAF variant of the J-10 or for that matter does Pakistan? How does a J-10 compare to Falcon MLU/OCU variants in battlespace application?-by that I'm talking situational awareness/networking, a DEMONSTRATED BVR capability behind all the Chinese hype about the SD-10 which has apparently on begun limited trials and most importantly are the Chinese going to give Pakistan full access to the supply management chain for the J-10 with regards for full servicibility of the radar unit, EW Suite and sensor suite?



Sir, PAF evaluated the J-10 2 years ago. The word after the evaluation was that the aircraft has immense potential. Now I cannot tell you how the PAF has decided to push the envelope on this supposedly great potential, but the recent indication of a pending order gives you an idea that PAF think that inducting this platform is a viable solution and one that fulfills the ASRs laid down for the platform. In terms of a demonstrated BVR capability, the J-10 is definitely not any worse off than JF-17 and the PAF is fairly well aware of the capabilities of the SD-10. The actual performance of the SD-10 is something that should be looked at and evaluated separately from the J-10 in my opinion. There is always the possibility that PAF may induct a western BVR solution for the J-10, however there is immense satisfaction in having the option to acquire a considerable inventory of the SD-10 even if western sources are not available. As bad as the AIM-7 Sparrow was, it was still a serious deterrent. I do not see SD-10 to be that bad a deal.

On the issue of the supply chain management, I think it depends on what the configuration for the FC-20 is. If PAF decide to go with a Western radar, then the issues are altogether different. Thus far getting access to Chinese technology has not been a problem (thanks to them!). Usually its our own requirements which make us go to other suppliers beyond the Chinese, otherwise the Chinese have always been very accommodating.

So I think the answers to most of the above is affirmative. 


> Why do you think Jordan ordered 25year+ Falcon airframes and continue to order after numerous Pakistani and Chinese presentations re: the JF-17 on the parameters of life cycle cost, purchase price, customisation and integration?
> 
> Because the Falcon is proven and the others are not. Because the Falcon offers true strike/interdiction/counter air capability with battlespace awareness that in many cases confer first shot advantages over adversaries that do not. Age doesn't really apply in these cases as the Benelux countries maintain their airframes well and a MLU w/ centreline barrel replacement (remanufacture) will get you an airframe just about new-ish. Same applies with the Gripen which in counter air is truly outstanding not only in the much quoted fanboy areas of maenueverability, how many AAMs can be carried etc. but in the informational awareness grid arena.



I am all for additional Vipers. However it would be a strategic folly to prefer the F-16 over the Chinese solutions (that is if its being proposed that PAF drop the Chinese hardware in favor of the Western solution). PAF has always had a mix of hardware for either the cost or reliability of supply reasons. Don't really see a reason why this approach should be shelved. Especially when Pakistani and US strategic interests do not always converge and the sanctions axe is always dangling over the heads of the planners in Islamabad.



> The JF-17 and J-10 cannot be "plugged in" to AEW assets the PAF has and even when a datalink solution is found it will lag behind full Link 16 Block III standards found now on Western designs. Lack of bandwith means you might as well use GCI when up against your particular peer adversary.



I think this is a misunderstanding. JF-17s and J-10s will be tied into a converged grid via the AEW platforms. Operationally its not possible for PAF to conduct effective operations without having all of the Chinese and western assets tied into the PAF ADS. At least technically, I do not see any reason why the Chinese aircraft cannot be tied into the Link-16 architecture given the fact that Chinese have been producing NATO standard interfaces (on their databuses) for their aircraft for a while (for export customers). Lagging behind is one thing, not being able to communicate another. Also issues such as bandwith etc. can be addressed with putting more powerful hardware which is produced in mass in China. What I know for sure is that all new assets (JF-17, FC-20 and the F-16s MLU and blk52s) are fully planned to be integrated via DLs to the AEW platforms. We would not be acquiring 9 AEW platforms if this was deemed unfeasible. Its a lot of money to be spent and PAF have done their homework. Admittedly it may not be the best DL solution, it will still be workable for our purposes.


If you've watched the Red Flag video of the performance of the IAF several things the Colonel said should be on your mind.



> #1 Despite several instances of fratricide the IAF is improving Information dominance across the board in particular the linkage between the MIG-21BM and MKI assets via Elbit M-II for "sharing" targeting information for BVR. In other words you have a "swarm" of expendable Bisons capable of AA-12 BVR shots linked to Phalcon AWACS, Green Pine Search Radar and MKI shooters ALL able to "see" deep within Pakistan-indeed as far as the Western Iranian border/Iraq.



Not sure if this is what the Col said. But currently the IAF Bisons are not DL'd. Currently the DL in use within the IAF is limited to 16 ship formations of the MKIs. They use GCI just like we do for extended situational awareness for their platforms like the Mig-21 and Mirage 2000 besides using the AI radars on their aircraft (both of which are limited to a range of less than 100 km).

While the range of their AEW will be considerable, it still does not provide them with that much of a surprise as PAF AEW assets are also capable of looking 350km inside of India. What these platforms do provide is the ability for both sides to have extended early warning of ingressing aircraft. So the good thing is that nobody should be surprised if these assets are employed effectively.



> #2 The Indians as I've repeated don't particularly care about losses-you do.



They surely can take more punishment than we can owing to their size and the adage "Quantity has a quality all its own" comes to mind, however I think this is the aspect where the Chinese hardware comes really handy for us. While losses to western hardware would be almost impossible to make up during wartime, its not so with the Chinese hardware. We have done this in the past wars and rebuilt PAF back up fairly quickly. 



> #3 The induction of about a hundred-two hundred MRCA (I bet Super Hornet) able to be directly plugged into that grid and you think the J-10 and JF-17 are the answer?



PAF would be stupid not to go for JF-17 and FC-20/J-10. 100 or 200 MRCA are all fine but are still susceptible to a deterrence put up by a mixed Multi-role force made up of F-16s, FC-20s and FC-17s all Data Linked and fielding BVRAAMs and high agility WVRAAMs. The technology does change, however PAFs solution is not a bad one.

IAF used their bisons fairly effectively (although under RoEs unfavourable to the USAF) against the USAF F-15s. Tactics and upgrades had a big role to play here. So not sure why the same cannot be possible with JF-17s and FC-20s against an IAF fleet with MKIs and MMRCAs? 

PAF is fairly confident in terms of its capabilities and its ongoing upgrades. They know that if things keep on going the way they have, they will have a very credible capability against the IAF in the future. Their goals are obviously not those of attaining air dominance over the IAF, however for tactical superiority, PAF will be fielding a pretty good outfit.



> Since cost is such an issue for the PAF why is the J-10 being pursued? Increased infrastructure/TRADOC costs, maintenance and supply chain costs and vulnerabilities. Planes don't just come with 8x AAM and a pilot. Get that into your head. They come with 10+ support personnel, fuel trucks, controllers, avionics techs, ordanance handlers that eat up cash (personnel costs). That isn't an issue for the Indians but it is critical for the PAF.



I took this part of another one of your posts as I wanted to add a few lines about it. I think the question of why J-10 is being pursued has to addressed in light of the alternates.
To answer the question, I would say firstly, PAF would pay less than additional blk52s if it went for the J-10. Secondly, more blk52s means more aircraft that could be threatened with the blockage of spares (Pakistan is not a tier1/2 US ally or partner so we have to be mindful of what could happen in case the Congress gets a little nutty about Pakistan). The third and most important aspect is that the force structure review for the PAF for the past two decades at least has laid down a requirement for at least 400 combat aircraft. Given the restrictions and concerns I mentioned above, and the need to have high, medium, low performance mix in the force (F-16s/FC-20, JF-17s, Mirage/F-7PGs respectively), the FC-20 was deemed to be a very good platform. The costs associated with lifecycle, support etc. are acceptable because no matter which way you look at it, PAF will get the hardware at friendship rates and those too usually at our own payback schedule. Can't say the same about US FMS on this count at least.

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## fatman17

^^^good discussion by Jliu and Blain2. for whatever its worth if the PAF dosnt resolve the radar and BVR issues very quickly, then i am afraid the JF-17 is just another F-7!!! and this is coming from a PAF source.


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## Indicom

Bisons in IAF service do have an air data link computer system which can be merged with MKI formations,it's manufactured by Bharat Electronics,will post it sometime from now.


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## Indicom

That's LinkII system from BEL,though it's not as good as Link16 or likes but it's good enough for Asian theatre.


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## blain2

Indicom,

I am pretty sure that the Link II system is a Naval application and not on board the IAF Bisons.


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## Jliu

blain2 said:


> Sir, PAF evaluated the J-10 2 years ago. The word after the evaluation was that the aircraft has immense potential. Now I cannot tell you how the PAF has decided to push the envelope on this supposedly great potential, but the recent indication of a pending order gives you an idea that PAF think that inducting this platform is a viable solution and one that fulfills the ASRs laid down for the platform.



Sir, to the best of your knowledge have any other foreign air arms evaluated the J-10? There also appears to be a disrepancy re: the PLAAF variant (J-10A) which we saw at Zhuhai and the "FC-20" PAF variant which may incorporate an unknown amount of non-Chinese components.



> In terms of a demonstrated BVR capability, the J-10 is definitely not any worse off than JF-17 and the PAF is fairly well aware of the capabilities of the SD-10.



Since both platforms are using the same base ordnance I suppose that is correct although assuming the same Chinese radar type (our desig 083C) then we figure the J-10A on paper has a detection capability somewhat greater since the introduction of the 083D MESA. We don't know exactly how well that compares to the Grifo or proposed RC400 though the Taiwanese are raising hell over the latter.



> The actual performance of the SD-10 is something that should be looked at and evaluated separately from the J-10 in my opinion. There is always the possibility that PAF may induct a western BVR solution for the J-10, however there is immense satisfaction in having the option to acquire a considerable inventory of the SD-10 even if western sources are not available. As bad as the AIM-7 Sparrow was, it was still a serious deterrent. I do not see SD-10 to be that bad a deal.



The Americans have observed SD-10 firings and they aren't breaking too much of a sweat. Personally I regard the J-10/JF-17 in their current config as clearly inferior to contemp. Eurocanard and US designs; "dogmeat" if you like but once Western avionics such as the RC400/MICA combination are factored into an uprated base design then the dynamics of engagement change.



> On the issue of the supply chain management, I think it depends on what the configuration for the FC-20 is. If PAF decide to go with a Western radar, then the issues are altogether different. Thus far getting access to Chinese technology has not been a problem (thanks to them!). Usually its our own requirements which make us go to other suppliers beyond the Chinese, otherwise the Chinese have always been very accommodating.
> 
> So I think the answers to most of the above is affirmative.



Again sir the timeframes (or lack of them) re: the FC-20 somewhat disturb me. You are basing your assumptions on past Chinese behaviour-I am not saying you are wrong for nay matter but the lack of concrete actions and documentation raises questions. Given past Chinese behaviour on the export market it has caused them all sorts of trouble-such as the Jordanians not wanting to deal with them again.



> I am all for additional Vipers. However it would be a strategic folly to prefer the F-16 over the Chinese solutions (that is if its being proposed that PAF drop the Chinese hardware in favor of the Western solution). PAF has always had a mix of hardware for either the cost or reliability of supply reasons. Don't really see a reason why this approach should be shelved. Especially when Pakistani and US strategic interests do not always converge and the sanctions axe is always dangling over the heads of the planners in Islamabad.



You're thinking strategically whereas I am thinking along the lines of a tactical PAF theatre solution to the IAF's growing numbers, it reflects our roles (or past roles) in Pakistan With limited resources I advocate a mix of Gripen and Falcon MLU offering maximum convergence with AEW assets and at the top of the optimumal performance curve however you too are correct with diversity of the fleet. In other words I am basing my fleet modernisation plan on the assumption that ties with the West will improve/status quo whereas you factor in status quo/deterioration of ties as geopolitical factors when planning.



> I think this is a misunderstanding. JF-17s and J-10s will be tied into a converged grid via the AEW platforms. Operationally its not possible for PAF to conduct effective operations without having all of the Chinese and western assets tied into the PAF ADS.



I am assuming systems-wise you mean certain ground stations in that convergence grid that act as intermediaries between the Chinese and Swedish AEW assets? Certainly cost wise that's how I'd do it because of speed and bandwidth issues but it is very vulnerable to all sorts of threats.



> At least technically, I do not see any reason why the Chinese aircraft cannot be tied into the Link-16 architecture given the fact that Chinese have been producing NATO standard interfaces (on their databuses) for their aircraft for a while (for export customers). Lagging behind is one thing, not being able to communicate another.



As per my earlier post, given that the Chinese do not have access to a NATO STANAG approved databus then systems integration will be problematic. Lag is also highly serious issue as you know too well. Let's hope it won't be an issue given unknowns about specs.



> Also issues such as bandwith etc. can be addressed with putting more powerful hardware which is produced in mass in China. What I know for sure is that all new assets (JF-17, FC-20 and the F-16s MLU and blk52s) are fully planned to be integrated via DLs to the AEW platforms. We would not be acquiring 9 AEW platforms if this was deemed unfeasible. Its a lot of money to be spent and PAF have done their homework. Admittedly it may not be the best DL solution, it will still be workable for our purposes.



Sounds a bit hopeful to me.



> Not sure if this is what the Col said. But currently the IAF Bisons are not DL'd. Currently the DL in use within the IAF is limited to 16 ship formations of the MKIs. They use GCI just like we do for extended situational awareness for their platforms like the Mig-21 and Mirage 2000 besides using the AI radars on their aircraft (both of which are limited to a range of less than 100 km).



The Colonel did mention Bison behaviour systems wise but conclusions do spring to mind re: what he said. The Americans and we know for a start that at least 2 Bisons have been DL'd to plug into the MKI and Phalcon convergence grid (the Indians have a Phalcon "simulator module" that allows a theoretical picture of a functional grid to be tested prior to actual delivery). They were around during Malabar 07. We don't know whether how many units have been converted or whether this a large scale update-or even whether such plans have been shelved in light of ordering 80 more MRCA. 



> While the range of their AEW will be considerable, it still does not provide them with that much of a surprise as PAF AEW assets are also capable of looking 350km inside of India. What these platforms do provide is the ability for both sides to have extended early warning of ingressing aircraft. So the good thing is that nobody should be surprised if these assets are employed effectively.



Detection range of 350km is highly wishful in my opinion-in heavy clutter and jamming? The Swedish must be exaggerating in their brochures as usual. The Phalcon system as the Israelis admitted under heaving grilling by us has a detection/lock/track range ~350km (wouldnt give us exact figure) under simulated attack by 8 F-18A, Counter Air CAP of 4x F-15C, optimal weather at cruising altitude (other factors classified). Admittedly they've improved it somewhat but hardly what we were looking for with requirements for CM defence and saturated ordnance battlespace.



> They surely can take more punishment than we can owing to their size and the adage "Quantity has a quality all its own" comes to mind, however I think this is the aspect where the Chinese hardware comes really handy for us. While losses to western hardware would be almost impossible to make up during wartime, its not so with the Chinese hardware. We have done this in the past wars and rebuilt PAF back up fairly quickly.



That is certainly true.



> PAF would be stupid not to go for JF-17 and FC-20/J-10. 100 or 200 MRCA are all fine but are still susceptible to a deterrence put up by a mixed Multi-role force made up of F-16s, FC-20s and FC-17s all Data Linked and fielding BVRAAMs and high agility WVRAAMs. The technology does change, however PAFs solution is not a bad one.



As I've said, system v system....in light of the above there is a big lot of IFs-what worries me is that the IAF have set up a 'plug and play' system with the Phalcon, Green Pine, MKI, SPYDER and/or possibly the F-18E/F and/or Bison???. By itself the system already has a qualitative overmatch over comparable PAF 'mixed' system in bandwith and integration. I suppose the JF-17 with French hardware would improve the equation somewhat but in my opinion Gripen A/B (C/D) would be a improvement over the FC-20/J-10 as it is proven.



> IAF used their bisons fairly effectively (although under RoEs unfavourable to the USAF) against the USAF F-15s. Tactics and upgrades had a big role to play here. So not sure why the same cannot be possible with JF-17s and FC-20s against an IAF fleet with MKIs and MMRCAs?



As you probably can sense, I don't place too much of an emphasis on extensive close in WVR tactics or doctrine with the intro of high AoA, offboresight WVRs in the market. I believe that any air arm with a numerical advantage yet (relatively) limited funds (like the IAF) should be able to achieve statistical air superiority (confining the opponent to point counter-air) using the above and large quantities of Fire and Forget BVR AAMs in a *all seeing optimal awareness NCW information grid* which statistically renders extensive close in training obsolete provided the AF in question is willing to take casualties. I think the Indians seem to have been a big fan of my writings but I don't think a war do validate them is preferable-peace should be the striving of mankind.




> I took this part of another one of your posts as I wanted to add a few lines about it. I think the question of why J-10 is being pursued has to addressed in light of the alternates.
> To answer the question, I would say firstly, PAF would pay less than additional blk52s if it went for the J-10. Secondly, more blk52s means more aircraft that could be threatened with the blockage of spares (Pakistan is not a tier1/2 US ally or partner so we have to be mindful of what could happen in case the Congress gets a little nutty about Pakistan). The third and most important aspect is that the force structure review for the PAF for the past two decades at least has laid down a requirement for at least 400 combat aircraft. Given the restrictions and concerns I mentioned above, and the need to have high, medium, low performance mix in the force (F-16s/FC-20, JF-17s, Mirage/F-7PGs respectively), the FC-20 was deemed to be a very good platform. The costs associated with lifecycle, support etc. are acceptable because no matter which way you look at it, PAF will get the hardware at friendship rates and those too usually at our own payback schedule. Can't say the same about US FMS on this count at least.



In terms of quantity and resupply you are right. Quality may be improved although I still have my reservations about the two tiered system (Western/Chinese)and I did forget about the friendship rates Great Discussion with you Sir.

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## Munir

The discussion can be broken down to the variable:

-Political impact (boycots)
-Costs (China is a lot cheaper)
-Quality (That was a deep concern but for the price you can not get better quality anywhere else)
-Theatre (Does Pakistan need expensive planes if they added AWACS and decent ground radars?)
-Absorbing technology (With Mirages and F16's we never came further then maintenance, with JF17 and J10 it will a bring a lot more. Certainly more the Gripen or other toys)

I dsiagree with quantity aspect. In the past it was 1:5 atleast and even then IAF did not make the big win. With the training level, inhouse abilities (Babur/BM/nukes) and the fact that India cannot risk destable region we can forget numbers here. Just count the numbers on both sides in Serbia and Irac... Even then it was not a walk in the park. 

If it was black and white then we should buy one F22 and win everything...


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## Myth_buster_1

Jliu said:


> The RJAF capability wise I can state is second only to the Israelis in the Greater Mid East and believe me they think the JF-17 is slightly "obsolete" and I'm putting it nicely. Jordan still interested in the JF-17? You're talking to an adviser to the RJAF here Why would any of the other Arab states be interested in a Chinese made third gen fighter approaching block obsolescence if they have the cash to buy Western?



with all due respect the amount of ignorance running in every single lines of yours toward chinese is just  !
not even interested? are you sure? 
we just had UAE RJAF AF 1 2 star Gen fully inspect JF-17 in PAC and you talk of arabs not even interested in chinese equipments? Chinese recently demonstrated its SP guns in KSA and Kuwait.
you being god knows how much of a "adviser" still lack the in dept info of pak and china military equipments related matters as they prefer to keep things classified and i dough you know anything more then average Jane's editors. i am being nice here. 



> I study this for a living. What do you do? Read Carefully. I stated the overall sit. awareness range of the Indian *system* approximates that range; in other words the system is known to cover large parts of Iran. A system is not a piece of hardware. It fuses information and features multiple assets linked-like the Green Pine radar.



here we go again with your inferiority complex of super alien western and isreali technology! you study this for a living? i do this for time pass. but buddy... the amount of sweat you want us to have on our faces then greeks should be sweating their blood out as enemy will possess a more advance system "wedgetail" over older greek erieye!
in your excitement of being the "champion" of world military affair you are forgetting something here. IAF Forward Air Bases against pakistan are within 100-200 km range and some are 50km from the border. you have always resorted to pising contest which is a very bad sigh of professional defence analysts.



> What about the LR SAMs? Whose LR SAM networks? Neither Pakistan nor Iran have these.


ya what about it? and neither IAF posses Palcons at the moment.!




> Since cost is such an issue for the PAF why is the J-10 being pursued? Increased infrastructure/TRADOC costs, maintenance and supply chain costs and vulnerabilities. Planes don't just come with 8x AAM and a pilot. Get that into your head. They come with 10+ support personnel, fuel trucks, controllers, avionics techs, ordanance handlers that eat up cash (personnel costs). That isn't an issue for the Indians but it is critical for the PAF.



first of all its not j-10 and i seriously advise you to read a book or two on PAF history and talk to PAF officers.

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## Myth_buster_1

as for the topic
by the time IAF posses a great number of new 4.5 gen MRCA "super hornet" PAF will allready have close to 100 FC-20 and J-XX will be ready for export. i would rather want PAF to spent more money on 5th generation fighters then to worry about buying new MRCA to counter IAF 120+ MRCA in a knew jerk reaction.


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## BATMAN

^^ When Indian pilots get familiar to fly (no name) MRCA it will be 2015 and that only is possible when indians know the name of their MRCA in 2008.


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## Munir

How long exactly did they took for LCA? I rest my case.

C'mon. They killed most of their Mig21 pilots before finally said a go for UK trainer... And as a inferiority complex they start with IJT which finally crashed in front of world audience cause our mr Singh forgot to lock the canopy... Then there is a drama of updating... Mig29, Mirage2000, Mig27... Name it... And the best I have seen... Mig21 Bis changed by Russians into Mig21 Bison... The same Russians blame Indians for bad fuel and bad maintenance... Surey not bad spare parts.

Now we hear about getting Gripen NG... F18E/F... F16block70... They just are getting the results of so many MKI's... Their best plane they flew to Red Flag so everyone could scan it... If everybody had not scanned it already in the UK. We will see how MRCA ends. Looking at how Ghorskov of any other Indian projects develops it could be another nightmare. Did we already forget the 200+ choppers they ordered... Sorry not ordered? And we thought that Arjun was the only hell for them.

Though I admire Indians for their positive attitude and nationality... They surely lack in many other fields. Projectmanagement is one big hole.

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## daredevil

Munir said:


> Though I admire Indians for their positive attitude and nationality... They surely lack in many other fields. Projectmanagement is one big hole.



Before pointing fingers at others, you should look at how big hole you find yourselves in.

Talking about LCA, we took 25 years, but it was started with a clean slate. Do have anything equivalent to show for yourselves?.


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## Munir

daredevil said:


> Before pointing fingers at others, you should look at how big hole you find yourselves in.
> 
> Talking about LCA, we took 25 years, but it was started with a clean slate. Do have anything equivalent to show for yourselves?.



Well, reading at BRF we can only apply paint.... So I even skip that defending. Atleast Pakistani are not shouting that they are a superpower or shoot unarmed planes near the border... What is next for you guys... Destruction of Super Mushaq cause it might have SD10?

This is a forum. If you cannot handle my finger (pointing at you) then I hope you can enlighten us where the project management did go well. Please do not tell me that your flag is still in one piece on the moon... 

You guys must understand that sometimes is so nice to change the perspective. I do not think that India achieved anything near what China did. It is my opinion. You do not have to compare yourself with a minor almost bankrupt Pakistan. Atleast you have something called democracy. But let us compare with China. Let us take aviation projects. Exactly where did India a lot better? Just say it loud... I can handle that. I am a big boy. 

I am laughing at how Indians wants to be accepted by USA...


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## BATMAN

Dear Munir, It also come to my mind that Super J-10/FC-20/J-10B is not exposed out of the reason that they are waiting for indian MRCA decsion and IMO CoAS's announcement was a bit of haste!
I mean we should have kept the deal in speculations till indian descion or as long possible!


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## daredevil

Munir said:


> Well, reading at BRF we can only apply paint.... So I even skip that defending. Atleast Pakistani are not shouting that they are a superpower or shoor unarmed planes near the border...
> 
> This is a forum. If you cannot handle my finger (pointing at you) then I hope you can enlighten us where the project management did go well. Please do not tell me that your flag is still in one piece on the moon...
> 
> You guys must understand that sometimes is is nice to change perspectives. I do not think that India achieved anything near what China did. It is my opinion. You do not have to compare with a minor almost bankrupt Pakistan. Atleast you have something called democracy. But let us compare with China. Let us take aviation projects. Exactly where did India a lot better? Just say it loud... I can handle that. I am a big boy.



I'm not saying India is a superpower (if you take the claims of fanboys at face value, that's not my fault. This not only applies to India but other countries as well). I can handle fingers, legs, heads and what not. I'm very open minded and will respect others perspectives on merit. So don't worry.

Yes, India is not China. China had a head start of 20 years economically , so obviously it is ahead. Moreover, it is controlled by Communists (authoritarian and fast) not by democracy (which is slow).

What did china did so great apart from copying all the russian models?. Only time will tell if Chinese Aviation is world class or not, in battle field. They don't even have capability to make engines to equip JF-17s, J-10 etc etc and still depending on Russians for that. Probably they need some more time in copying the engines (which I think they are doing well with WS-13).

I'm an optimist (not blinded by nationalism) by nature, so, I hope and expect that India will catch up sooner than later. Cheers.


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## Munir

Not exactly the topic but still...

Indian Navy warned of submarine capability shortfall
India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has warned the Indian Navy (IN) that it faces the prospect of having to operate with less than half of its current submarine fleet by 2012, when two thirds of the IN's submarines will be due for retirement.

In a report tabled in parliament on 24 October, the watchdog CAG revealed that the submarine fleet had been as low as 48 percent operational between January 2002 and December 2006 as a result of prolonged refit schedules far short of the 67 per cent operational availability target set by the IN's 1985 plan.

According to the CAG, 83 percent of short submarine refits and 100 percent of "normal and medium refits" fell behind schedule, since many of the Sindugosh (type 877) 'Kilo'-class boats ad to be sent to Russia to be retrofitted.

"With serious slippages in the induction plan, the navy is left with an ageing fleet, with more than 50 percent of submarines having completed 75 percent of their operational life and some already outliving their maximum service life," the CAG said.

At present, the IN operates 12 Sindugosh 'Kilo"-class boats, four Sishumar (HDW 209 Type 1500) boats and two Soviet-era 'Foxtrot' (Project 641) submarines, which are used largely for training and are well beyond their retirement date.

Six Project 75 Scorpene submarines are under construction at Mazagon Dockyard Ltd in western India, with the first boat due for induction in 2012 or early the following year.

The IN recently issued a fresh request for information for six more diesel-electric submarines with air-independent propulsion systems to overseas manufacturers such as Russia's Rosoboronexport, Armaris of France and Germany's HDW.

Holding the Ministry of Defence (MoD) responsible for not adhering to the IN's submarine construction and induction plan, the CAG also said that the missile-firing capability of three submarines was functioning at "sub-optimal levels" owing to the erratic performance of the inertial navigational system. The IN has experienced problems with the Novator Alfa Klub SS-N-27 (3M54E1) land-attack cruise missiles recently fitted to three Project 877 EKM 'Kilo'-class diesel-electric submarines at a Russian shipyard.

The performances of the new sonars fitted to the 'Kilos' was "not satisfactory", while delays by the MoD in acquiring deep submergence rescue vessels had led the IN to remain dependent on a foreign navy for rescue operations, according to the CAG. It recommended that the MoD "take all possible" measures to expedite the acquisition and construction of submarines and maximize combat readiness by maintaining operating standards and refitting submarines on time.


Related link: :The Daily Star: Internet Edition

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## daredevil

Well, in that case, you should be very happy. But, be warned, don't be complacent. And we will leave it at this. Nice talking to you. Cheers.


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## Munir

>>>What did china did so great apart from copying all the russian models?. Only time will tell if Chinese Aviation is world class or not, in battle field. They don't even have capability to make engines to equip JF-17s, J-10 etc etc and still depending on Russians for that. Probably they need some more time in copying the engines (which I think they are doing well with WS-13).

I agree they bought copied but I add... They evolved. Let us focus on the engines. Unfortunately an engine needs more time then other parts. But indeed they either developed or copied a well known Tumansky or Saturn. Matter of time before it gets mass production. India is still busy with Kaveri.

The problem is often the same. India wants a total new super duper Indian products and fails. China looks, buys, copies and improves. But isn't that how Japan,Taiwan or many other nations started?

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## BATMAN

fatman17 said:


> ^^^good discussion by Jliu and Blain2. for whatever its worth if the PAF dosnt resolve the radar and BVR issues very quickly, then i am afraid the JF-17 is just another F-7!!! and this is coming from a PAF source.



Well respected sir, it can be a nice topic for discussion.
Let's analyse on basic facts.
1- F7PG's are not bad at all and can evenly match to the best of dog fighters like F-16 and they need to be replaced owing to their life so from this point of view it is nothing to be affraid off to replace those with JF-17.
2- JF-17 have more power ful engine and more payload, have advanced maintenece infrastructure and overhauls can be done at forward bases. +
3- KLJ radar is assumed to be more powerful than the current italian grifo on F-7s. +
4- It has modern cokpit of 4th generation so pilots will have better situational awareness. +
5- It is FBW and have best airframe incorporating the best of technologies and definately more manuverable, if you see its functionality and airframe +
6- Jf-17 carries more fuel as compare to F-7 and will suerly have in air refuling +
7- JF-17 will have potential of improvement and is manufactured in localy +
8- JF-17 will be data linked with AWACS +
9- If F-16 and mirrages can carry balisitc weapons than JF-17 will also.

We strongly hope JF-17 will incorporate sd-10 (see no hinderence)
I think above plus points are enough to differentiate an aircraft from one generation to other.
JF-17 in present shape can out perform F-16/A so it is a better interceptor than F-7.


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## fatman17

BATMAN said:


> Well respected sir, it can be a nice topic for discussion.
> Let's analyse on basic facts.
> 1- F7PG's are not bad at all and can evenly match to the best of dog fighters like F-16 and they need to be replaced owing to their life so from this point of view it is nothing to be affraid off to replace those with JF-17.
> 2- JF-17 have more power ful engine and more payload, have advanced maintenece infrastructure and overhauls can be done at forward bases. +
> 3- KLJ radar is assumed to be more powerful than the current italian grifo on F-7s. +
> 4- It has modern cokpit of 4th generation so pilots will have better situational awareness. +
> 5- It is FBW and have best airframe incorporating the best of technologies and definately more manuverable, if you see its functionality and airframe +
> 6- Jf-17 carries more fuel as compare to F-7 and will suerly have in air refuling +
> 7- JF-17 will have potential of improvement and is manufactured in localy +
> 8- JF-17 will be data linked with AWACS +
> 9- If F-16 and mirrages can carry balisitc weapons than JF-17 will also.
> 
> We strongly hope JF-17 will incorporate sd-10 (see no hinderence)
> I think above plus points are enough to differentiate an aircraft from one generation to other.
> JF-17 in present shape can out perform F-16/A so it is a better interceptor than F-7.



i admire your enthusiasm and confidence but i strongly suggest u read up what blain2 and Jliu have been discussing.

JF-17 will need the Thales/MBDA deal to come through very quickly for the JF-17 to do the things u are suggesting.

pls answer, why would PAF look for the french option mentioned above if the KLJ-7/SD-10 were meeting their ASRs. apparantly this combo is not!

further there is now talk of a western powerplant as the RD-93 is not satisfactory and there is no new news on the chinese WS-13!

finally the statement i have quoted is coming from a PAF source not me, so he must know something!

just being realistic!


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## Myth_buster_1

daredevil said:


> Before pointing fingers at others, you should look at how big hole you find yourselves in.
> 
> Talking about LCA, we took 25 years, but it was started with a clean slate. Do have anything equivalent to show for yourselves?.



indians are by far the biggest credit chor in the world! they have huge ego satisfying problem. LCA is a dassault development which the credit chor bloodily claim to be indigenously becuase some indian guys in DODO says so. the indian claim arjunk and dhruv aka bk-117 to be indigenously produced but recent reports reveal that 99% of Dhruv is actually foreigner made and i mean just about anything is foreigner! the arjunk is a down graded version of LEO A4.

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## Quwa

We should forward investment in some light-fighter AESA projects offered by Thales or Galileo-Selex...in a sense have a joint-venture with one of those companies. Call on their assistance in local avionics & ECM/EW development as well...also continue cooperation with South Africans in weapons-systems such as T-Darter BVR & A-Darter WVR. Time the projects as closely as possible and create a lot of fluidity between the different organizations involved in development - to ease end integration.


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## daredevil

PC said:


> indians are by far the biggest credit chor in the world! they have huge ego satisfying problem. LCA is a dassault development which the credit chor bloodily claim to be indigenously becuase some indian guys in DODO says so. the indian claim arjunk and dhruv aka bk-117 to be indigenously produced but recent reports reveal that 99&#37; of Dhruv is actually foreigner made and i mean just about anything is foreigner! the arjunk is a down graded version of LEO A4.



If they were really copied, they should be up and running now, just like the copied versions of China. JF-17 is no indigenous effort either it seems.


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## Munir

daredevil said:


> If they were really copied, they should be up and running now, just like the copied versions of China. JF-17 is no indigenous effort either it seems.



In percentages seen the LCA is more Israeli or French then Indian. About JF17, they did use some tech but I do not think that is anywhere near LCA.

The fact remains that getting so fast new technology to be part of a few nations that can produce it means getting foreign technology and consultants. There is no shame for that. But the result should be that you have a working product in short time. Otherwise it is a lost investment.

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## Awesome

PAF needs to go for JF-17... Improve it. PAF needs J-10... Improve it. PAF needs anything else that China makes and improve it.

We need to be assured that any platform we get its supply won't run out.

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## blain2

Jliu said:


> Sir, to the best of your knowledge have any other foreign air arms evaluated the J-10? There also appears to be a disrepancy re: the PLAAF variant (J-10A) which we saw at Zhuhai and the "FC-20" PAF variant which may incorporate an unknown amount of non-Chinese components.



Sorry for losing track of this discussion. I tend to do that quite a bit. The only air arm to have checked out the J-10 is PAF currently. I am pretty sure about this.




> Since both platforms are using the same base ordnance I suppose that is correct although assuming the same Chinese radar type (our desig 083C) then we figure the J-10A on paper has a detection capability somewhat greater since the introduction of the 083D MESA. We don't know exactly how well that compares to the Grifo or proposed RC400 though the Taiwanese are raising hell over the latter.



RC400 is good kit. However the nose of the FC-20 can incorporate a bigger radar than the RC400 which is suitable for aircraft with the dimensions of JF-17, LCA, F-16 etc. While its very much possible that the current Chinese AI radar maybe inferior to what is available on the western platforms, I believe PAF's options are open in terms of what we decide to do with the FC-20.





> The Americans have observed SD-10 firings and they aren't breaking too much of a sweat. Personally I regard the J-10/JF-17 in their current config as clearly inferior to contemp. Eurocanard and US designs; "dogmeat" if you like but once Western avionics such as the RC400/MICA combination are factored into an uprated base design then the dynamics of engagement change.



Sir, I am sure that observing SD-10 firings without knowing or understanding the test parameters is not really relevant. There is no way that the Americans have any confidential insight into the capabilities of the SD-10. Secondly, as I mentioned earlier, even if we assume the capabilities of the SD-10 to be in the league of the legacy AIM-7 Sparrow class, for the PAF its a very decent deterrence nevertheless. Also Chinese hardware, as simple and rugged as it is, is not to be underestimated. The Chinese also have new performance benchmarks established as they have been getting some fairly decent and up to date avionics from the Russians and their own radars (which we have actually evaluated against the performance of APG66/68/RC-400/GrifoS7 are not that bad and are constantly being improved upon. While I like the idea of integrating a Western avionics package (depending on its availability, we already know that PAF wants to do that with the FC-20), in the case where we may not have this luxury either due to cost or some other constraints, we can do alright with the Chinese avionics.




> Again sir the timeframes (or lack of them) re: the FC-20 somewhat disturb me. You are basing your assumptions on past Chinese behaviour-I am not saying you are wrong for nay matter but the lack of concrete actions and documentation raises questions. Given past Chinese behaviour on the export market it has caused them all sorts of trouble-such as the Jordanians not wanting to deal with them again.



Timelines can change and delays could be incurred in the induction of FC-20. No denying that. However PAF will have to make do if they run across delays. By the way as you must be aware, delays are a universal phenomena when it comes to defence acquisitions. We experienced delays in the delivery of our ROSE Mirages by SAGEM of France (a non-Chinese, Western source). The Typhoon project is considerably delayed overall with deliveries picking up pace only now. Bottom line is that we have dealt with the Chinese in the past and continue to do so on a myriad of other transactions of military nature even as I write this. I think the Chinese will deliver. A bigger challenge would be to get our integration done in time for IOC to be achieved on the FC-20 by 2010/11.



> You're thinking strategically whereas I am thinking along the lines of a tactical PAF theatre solution to the IAF's growing numbers, it reflects our roles (or past roles) in Pakistan With limited resources I advocate a mix of Gripen and Falcon MLU offering maximum convergence with AEW assets and at the top of the optimumal performance curve however you too are correct with diversity of the fleet. In other words I am basing my fleet modernisation plan on the assumption that ties with the West will improve/status quo whereas you factor in status quo/deterioration of ties as geopolitical factors when planning.



In my opinion, IAF is also playing catchup currently. Their number of operational sqns is considerably lower than what they have been sanctioned. By the time their induction of MMRCA materializes, PAF would have attained IOC on the FC-20 by a considerable margin. Now what that IOC really looks like is yet to be seen.

I also think your assumption about things remaining stable in terms of Pakistan's relations with the West is a good one and I would want that to happen, however reality is as such that we cannot count upon the goodwill to be there always (regardless of how much we would want it to). While the decent relations may always exist, even ups and downs here and there end up eroding the capabilities of the PAF considerably. Therefore we will ensure in the future that we qualitatively upgrade what we get from China so our Air Force is not subjected to the neglect similar to that of the 90s.



> I am assuming systems-wise you mean certain ground stations in that convergence grid that act as intermediaries between the Chinese and Swedish AEW assets? Certainly cost wise that's how I'd do it because of speed and bandwidth issues but it is very vulnerable to all sorts of threats.



Ground station relaying is definitely an option as even the first generation of the Erieye (Pakistani order does not need relaying to the ground station when communicating with DL equipped aircraft) did that and we can use it for relaying of info between the two platforms. 




> The Colonel did mention Bison behaviour systems wise but conclusions do spring to mind re: what he said. The Americans and we know for a start that at least 2 Bisons have been DL'd to plug into the MKI and Phalcon convergence grid (the Indians have a Phalcon "simulator module" that allows a theoretical picture of a functional grid to be tested prior to actual delivery). They were around during Malabar 07. We don't know whether how many units have been converted or whether this a large scale update-or even whether such plans have been shelved in light of ordering 80 more MRCA.



Again BISON DL has never been confirmed and as far as I am aware, their BISON fleet is flying GCI intercepts to get a better situational awareness over extended ranges (they use the Kopyo AI radar but are limited by the detection range of the said radar to under 100km). While it would make sense for all of their fleet to have a common DL, they are some ways off from getting this capability. Currently, their MKI fleet cannot conduct DL communications with any other type except by way of relay. The same goes for the overall IAF fleet. Plenty of work to be done here by them before getting everyone on an integrated digital grid.




> Detection range of 350km is highly wishful in my opinion-in heavy clutter and jamming? The Swedish must be exaggerating in their brochures as usual. The Phalcon system as the Israelis admitted under heaving grilling by us has a detection/lock/track range ~350km (wouldnt give us exact figure) under simulated attack by 8 F-18A, Counter Air CAP of 4x F-15C, optimal weather at cruising altitude (other factors classified). Admittedly they've improved it somewhat but hardly what we were looking for with requirements for CM defence and saturated ordnance battlespace.



Sir the instrumented range on the Erieye is actually much greater than the 350 km range but as per the Swedes, in dense jamming environment, the aircraft can still track targets at the ranges I have quoted above. While performance degradation is a possibility, even a 200km range provides sufficient time to the Pakistani air defences to put up aircraft in the air. (We do this with GCI connected Radars, what will be offered to us by OTH capability is a luxury for us).




> As I've said, system v system....in light of the above there is a big lot of IFs-what worries me is that the IAF have set up a 'plug and play' system with the Phalcon, Green Pine, MKI, SPYDER and/or possibly the F-18E/F and/or Bison???. By itself the system already has a qualitative overmatch over comparable PAF 'mixed' system in bandwith and integration. I suppose the JF-17 with French hardware would improve the equation somewhat but in my opinion Gripen A/B (C/D) would be a improvement over the FC-20/J-10 as it is proven.



Well you cannot compare system vs system all the time in my opinion. I believe (others can disagree) that PAF runs a tighter, better integrated Air Defence system that can counter some of the issues that would arise out of a singular system vs system comparison. Secondly, while the list of IAF assets as quoted above sounds fairly impressive, they have issues with interoperability that would need to be worked out. Their MKIs use proprietary Russian Data Links which their other aircraft don't so they have to converge to a Common architecture or they have to rely on the relay. With a supposed induction of Super Hornet, they would have to deal with interop of Link16 with their Russian solution on the MKI. It remains to be seen what they would do to equip the Bisons (I suspect the Mirage2000-5 upgrades that they are going for will give them a Link16 capability), however I think you understand the point I am trying to make. As formidable as the array of Indian capabilities may look on paper, they also have various challenges and integration issues like the PAF. I think our response in the form of upgraded Pakistan Air Defence System (PADS-77) - built around TPS-77, YLC-2, in the near future Erieye integration and tied to Crotale4000/NG and SPADA2000 is a very credible one. 

As for the bandwidth and integration is concerned, being heavily involved in this side of the work for a while, I know that Chinese can come up equally good stuff as the West (a lot of the commercial stuff for the US companies in this field is already being done in China).



> As you probably can sense, I don't place too much of an emphasis on extensive close in WVR tactics or doctrine with the intro of high AoA, offboresight WVRs in the market. I believe that any air arm with a numerical advantage yet (relatively) limited funds (like the IAF) should be able to achieve statistical air superiority (confining the opponent to point counter-air) using the above and large quantities of Fire and Forget BVR AAMs in a *all seeing optimal awareness NCW information grid* which statistically renders extensive close in training obsolete provided the AF in question is willing to take casualties. I think the Indians seem to have been a big fan of my writings but I don't think a war do validate them is preferable-peace should be the striving of mankind.



I see your point, however PAF would barely be lacking in terms of BVR capability. We have some very potent as well as dependable programs in the works comprising of AIM-120 and SD-10. You must also be aware of the discussions around MICA and there are one or two more programs of a similar nature afoot. IAF definitely has the numerical advantage, however our modernization plans ensure that we continue to field a considerable deterrence in the face of the IAF. 



> In terms of quantity and resupply you are right. Quality may be improved although I still have my reservations about the two tiered system (Western/Chinese)and I did forget about the friendship rates Great Discussion with you Sir.



Its always good discussing things with you.

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## VENO

DEAR PC,
Indian's are not credit chors.....please mind Ur language. 

Why hasn't China inducted JF-17 in its fleet ? May be bcoz it is not up to the mark. PAK should not rely heavily on this reverse engineered machine and should look out for a better option.


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## Keysersoze

VENO said:


> DEAR PC,
> Indian's are not credit chors.....please mind Ur language.
> 
> Why hasn't China inducted JF-17 in its fleet ? May be bcoz it is not up to the mark. PAK should not rely heavily on this reverse engineered machine and should look out for a better option.



Reverse engineered from what exactly? It's funny but I have the feeling that you are going to repeat the rubbish we have been hearing for a Loooooooooong time now....

Lets face it......I doubt you know anything about the JF-17 other than some jingoistic tripe you have read on other Indian websites. Lets get back to the topic

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## Myth_buster_1

VENO said:


> DEAR PC,
> Indian's are not credit chors.....please mind Ur language.



-composite wings are italian
-LCA designed in europe "France" and "UK"
-FBW made in Europe, and IAI
-EW systems made in europe
-Kavir is more likely to be foreigner engine.
-Radar none indian
-only tires, and wheels are indians heck even the brake system is non indian

Basically the indian input in LCA is parallel to HF-24 which was not even designed in india. 


> Why hasn't China inducted JF-17 in its fleet ? May be bcoz it is not up to the mark. PAK should not rely heavily on this reverse engineered machine and should look out for a better option.



errrrrrrr.... because JF-17 and FC-1 are still going under test evaluations and since china has big budget they can afford more high tech systems and thus FC-1 may not fit their higher requirement. now tell me why hasnt russia placed any order for "BAHRAMOS" CM? and plus China has not made any decision yet, they could place well over 150 orders or just wait for a new variant.


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## araz

daredevil said:


> What did china did so great apart from copying all the russian models?. Only time will tell if Chinese Aviation is world class or not, in battle field. They don't even have capability to make engines to equip JF-17s, J-10 etc etc and still depending on Russians for that. Probably they need some more time in copying the engines (which I think they are doing well with WS-13).
> 
> May I most humbly remind you that Sweden; Saabs manufacturer, inspite of a history of a century of aviation production, does not produce the engine for the Gripen. There are a number of reasons and the most important one is money. For the amount of money it takes to manufacture an engine, you can buy an off the shelf one(Ala HAL Tejas).the reason China wants to develop engines with limited success with a lot of help from Russia is their philiosophy of total independance somewhat similar to India.
> I think, contrary to most posters that the Indian effort is laudable , although a bit premature in their development history. They are at least a decade of development behind China, and will achieve their aims in a decade or so eventually.However, they could have done so by taking help from Russia like China and PAkistan. Whether it would make any difference in the long run is something that needs to be seen.
> I hope You will not think me a racist, but it is my experience that the chinese work a lot harder than either the Indians or the Pakistanis, for reasons which I can not analyze.
> regards
> Araz

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Mercedes benz is a great automaker---right---but it doesnot know how to make quality automatic transmission---as a matter of fact german auto transmissions are a POS---guess where the german buys it auto transmissions from----you guessed it right U S manufacturers----jet engine building and manufacturing is a unique science---possibly it is easier to make a space shuttle engine flying to mars---than building a successful engine for a jet fighter.

Case in point----india----they send a mission to moon ( is that right ) but then they cannot even manufacture a diesel engine for their tank let alone the LCA----please don't take it as an insult----it just shows how difficult it is to manufacture a successful design.

So, if you can make the frame and chasis and put wings on it and show if it can fly---there are consortiums that will provide the power plants

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## melb4aust

nik007delta said:


> PAK cannot counter MRCA in any effective way. U guys should have invested on ur economy and education more than millitary like we did. now we can buy anything we want. Also spent more time in the labs instead of mosques if u know wat i mean.



Just *[mod edit] *stop teaching us, what we ve to do or what we dont, we dont need ur disguisting advises. 

Time will tell, (whether we can counter ur MRCA or not) better educate ur govt to finalise some **** 1st.


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## pakpower

We just have to Blast this nik007delta asss Holee out of this forum all indians are just an asss hooleess

Admin edit: Dont feed the troll. Avoid it next time or you will get in trouble.


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## hj786

pakpower said:


> We just have to Blast this nik007delta asss Holee out of this forum


 Agreed.



pakpower said:


> all indians are just an asss hooleess


Stop this racist crap all of you, this website is NOT a Pakistani version of Bharat Rakshak.
Moderators please take action against these silly kids, they are giving Pakistanis a bad name.

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## Neo

pakpower said:


> We just have to Blast this nik007delta asss Holee out of this forum all indians are just an asss hooleess



*This time you got away with an infraction, a ban may follow if you use foul language again!

Neo*

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## Arsalan

look after the J10B the MLU F16 and may be a few of F16 block 52.

the JF17 in next few years may also become good enough to match the SU27 ang the Mig29 and surpass the.
for the Su30 and the MRCA it will be the J10B but if so, we will have to increase the number we induct!!


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## sohailbutt

Question to the professional's:

Are we thinking of conducting a whole new fighter in the coming 10-15 years from now on, apart from JF-17, J-10's and new blk 52 F-16's, to counter the growing IAF numbers, in the years to come?


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## mean_bird

sohailbutt said:


> Question to the professional's:
> 
> Are we thinking of conducting a whole new fighter in the coming 10-15 years from now on, apart from JF-17, J-10's and new blk 52 F-16's, to counter the growing IAF numbers, in the years to come?



We will only induct the FC-20 once it becomes a real top-of-the-line 4.5gen fighter similar (in terms of technology) to blk 60, EF, Rafale,etc. Otherwise, there is no point except that its an alternative to F-16.

It will take PAF, as it would have taken any other professional airforce, quite a bit of time to master an entire change of fleet and two completely new platforms. Remember, you don't just recieve a plane and start winning wars with it until you know it inside out and can make the maximum out of it by knowing its strength and weakness and how to deal with each.

So after FC-20, which should be a 4.5gen plane, there is no room for another 4th/4.5gen plane until the PAF can graduate for the 5th gen planes. Honestly, I do not see it happening in next 5-10 years i.e. 2014-2019. We will barely become experts in JF-17 and FC-20 to think of another platform. 

Besides, other things to look for will be newer advancements and upgradations of our current fleet of JF-17 by mk-2 either from batch 2 or 3 onwards. So in my opinion, after the FC-20 any new platform will have to be 5th gen.

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## saiko

Doesn't some of the US military aid follow the same model as aid to other nations (eg Egypt and Israel) where you have to purchase US products?

If so, the F-16's could see more procurements in the coming years to come.


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## Muradk

PAF's possible answer to MRCA is J-11.


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## notorious_eagle

Yes Sir but getting J11 is next to impossible, the Russians will never let us have it.


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## Muradk

notorious_eagle said:


> Yes Sir but getting J11 is next to impossible, the Russians will never let us have it.



Russians will sell there own mothers for the right price. Its all comes to the top brass someone needs to put pressure to get J-11.
J-10 is good no doubt but you cant compare lavi project vs J-11, J-11 is to superior. Have one SQD in Kamra one in Karachi and we are covered pretty much.

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## SBD-3

Muradk said:


> Russians will sell there own mothers for the right price. Its all comes to the top brass someone needs to put pressure to get J-11.
> J-10 is good no doubt but you cant compare lavi project vs J-11, J-11 is to superior. Have one SQD in Kamra one in Karachi and we are covered pretty much.


I love J-11 sir i think China has offered J-11 to PAF has it? i read it on rupee news


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## SQ8

Murad Sahab you push for the J-11 a lot..is there something about it that you know which sets it apart??


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## BSF

> Russians will sell there own mothers for the right price. Its all comes to the top brass someone needs to put pressure to get J-11.
> J-10 is good no doubt but you cant compare lavi project vs J-11, J-11 is to superior. Have one SQD in Kamra one in Karachi and we are covered pretty much.


J10 was /is being brought on a soft loan from China.

Even if Russia agrees to sell it to Pakistan (The way things are going between India and Russia .... this can happen) I don't think that they (Russia/China) will sell it to Pakistan on a soft loan basis.They will want hard cash.
And O ..rupee news is not so quite trust worthy ,fellow Pakistani members will agree

I personally want MIG 35 to win...... This will be good for the politics and we can influence Russian policies towards China and Pakistan (So I'd like to think )
Hey its a good plane too.. 


P.S the soft loan thing link here


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## maverick2009

J11 is no answer to potential MRCA orders 

Infact the J11 is inferior to SU30MKI with the indian flanker having TVC canards & far better Israeli/french electronics and the BARS pesa radar. 

The answer to MRCA is another MRCA eg Typhoon or Rafale


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## SQ8

The only thing that would actually counter the MRCA effectively and which could be procured without restrictions would be something hypothetical like Munir's avatar.
Other than that.. unless somebody strikes oil in Baluchistan the Defense of our skies needs divine support.


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## Keysersoze

maverick2009 said:


> J11 is no answer to potential MRCA orders
> 
> Infact the J11 is inferior to SU30MKI with the indian flanker having TVC canards & far better Israeli/french electronics and the BARS pesa radar.
> 
> The answer to MRCA is another MRCA eg Typhoon or Rafale



Dude do you think at all? In the event of a J-11 procurement do you think that the PAf would just take the vanilla model? They didn't with the J-7 j-10 so why would they with the J-11?


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## hj786

Muradk said:


> Russians will sell there own mothers for the right price. Its all comes to the top brass someone needs to put pressure to get J-11.
> J-10 is good no doubt but you cant compare lavi project vs J-11, J-11 is to superior. Have one SQD in Kamra one in Karachi and we are covered pretty much.



If you can buy and operate 2 F-20 for 1 F-16 and 2 F-16 for 1 F-15, can we assume PAF can buy and operate 4 squads of J-10 for 2 squads of J-11? Would the cost justify the capabilities?

J-10's airframe has some differences in the vertical stab., wing and canard shape to the Lavi and Chengdu have researched a delta-canard fighter since the mid 60s (Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). I don't think it is a simple Lavi copy with a Russian engine.

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## BSF

> Dude do you think at all? In the event of a J-11 procurement do you think that the PAf would just take the vanilla model? They didn't with the J-7 j-10 so why would they with the J-11?




Well as of now your Jf 17 seems to be a * vanilla* model..Why should I assume J11 to be any different and that too if you are buying it on a "soft soft" loan from china.


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## SQ8

Off course its vanilla, its pathetic, on a butter loan from the chinese.. nothing like the aMKItabh or LCA Khan..
Unbeatable. the F-22 doesnt stand a chance.. stupid American major.. what did he know about MKI deva.bought with diamonds from the Russians coated with KY Jelly.


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## Jako

santro said:


> Off course its vanilla, its pathetic, on a butter loan from the chinese.. nothing like the aMKItabh or LCA Khan..
> Unbeatable. the F-22 doesnt stand a chance.. stupid American major.. what did he know about MKI deva.bought with diamonds from the Russians coated with KY Jelly.



enter the great SARCASM........


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## Keysersoze

BSF said:


> Well as of now your Jf 17 seems to be a * vanilla* model..Why should I assume J11 to be any different and that too if you are buying it on a "soft soft" loan from china.



You are new and obviously not too bright. Have you followed the procurement of the JF-17? The radars were chosen from western and Chinese models as were other components. It's not Vanilla when you specify what you want.

And regardless of how we get things we get them. And despite your vaunted MKI's you still can't get into PAK airspace without permission.

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## Keysersoze

Jako said:


> enter the great SARCASM........



Yes it's best not to waste reason on people Like BSF


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## sergente rehan

santro said:


> Off course its vanilla, its pathetic, on a butter loan from the chinese.. nothing like the aMKItabh or LCA Khan..
> Unbeatable. the F-22 doesnt stand a chance.. stupid American major.. what did he know about MKI deva.bought with diamonds from the Russians coated with KY Jelly.



True said bro....poor F-22 is nothing compare to Mki....even if F-22 is a 5th generation and Mki a 4.5 gen. jet!


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## Jako

Keysersoze said:


> Yes it's best not to waste reason on people Like BSF



uum....dont know,but he cd have been answered in a better way.....anyways i too agree,jf17 is no way a vanilla model......they can match the indian mig29s and mirages imo......and plz stop this bs bout mki and lca......btw have you guys seen pics of lca pv-5,it looks great


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## SQ8

Sarcasm is my preffered treatment for fanboys.. wherever they are from
Wont change that for all the kudos in the world


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## sancho

Keysersoze said:


> Dude do you think at all? In the event of a J-11 procurement do you think that the PAf would just take the vanilla model? They didn't with the J-7 j-10 so why would they with the J-11?


PAF has more access to western techs than PLAAF, so they might be able to make J7 more capable with better techs than F7, or JF 17 better than FC1, but does that also mean that they have better techs than their IAF counterparts? Are PAFs J7 able of BVR combat like Mig 21 Bisons? 
Or JF 17 for example, it should get Grifo radar, SD 10 BVR Missile (maybe Mica), rumors talked about M88 (75Kn thrust), but now it has RD93 engine that could be upgraded to 90 Kn thrust.
LCA instead should get Elta 2052 AESA, Astra and latest R77missile, has GE 404 with 85Kn thrust and should get upg GE 414 (over 100Kn), or EJ 200 (90 - 100Kn) with TVC.
And now think about the techs that will be available for PAF if they get a copied Russian Flanker. 
Who will provide PAF better techs than BARS PESA radar, OLS 30, or latest AL 31/41? China can't, that's why they got Su 30 MKK and keeps the Flankers upgraded with Russian techs. Russia and Israel won't and the western countries can only offer avionics and maybe some weapons. So at the end a hypothetical PAF J11 might be better that PLAAF J11, but like maverick2009 said, it will remain inferior to MKI. Not because MKI is unbeatable, but because of inferior techs.

IAF MMRCA can only be countered by PAF with J10B and a capable AESA radar, or by purchasing other latest MMRCA like Rafale, or F18SH.


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## Arsalan

just to please our indian members


> sir we do not have any answer to the MRCA! it is great and nothing in the worls can stop it from destroying our country



for more serious members


> the FC20 will be a match for the MRCA, also by the time indian will induct MRCA we will have intensively modified the JF17, some modification in FC20 may also be made and we may even see a new jet flying with the PAF by then so no need to worry! i think time before its induction (2015 + ) is of more importance as we wont be having the Fc20 in next few years and also the JF17 wont be mature. the F16 programme is alos very very fragile as it is carried with our ALL WEATHER frient the great US



regards!


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## Gucci Juice

sancho said:


> PAF has more access to western techs than PLAAF, so they might be able to make J7 more capable with better techs than F7, or JF 17 better than FC1, but does that also mean that they have better techs than their IAF counterparts? Are PAFs J7 able of BVR combat like Mig 21 Bisons?
> Or JF 17 for example, it should get Grifo radar, SD 10 BVR Missile (maybe Mica), rumors talked about M88 (75Kn thrust), but now it has RD93 engine that could be upgraded to 90 Kn thrust.
> LCA instead should get Elta 2052 AESA, Astra and latest R77missile, has GE 404 with 85Kn thrust and should get upg GE 414 (over 100Kn), or EJ 200 (90 - 100Kn) with TVC.
> And now think about the techs that will be available for PAF if they get a copied Russian Flanker.
> Who will provide PAF better techs than BARS PESA radar, OLS 30, or latest AL 31/41? China can't, that's why they got Su 30 MKK and keeps the Flankers upgraded with Russian techs. Russia and Israel won't and the western countries can only offer avionics and maybe some weapons. So at the end a hypothetical PAF J11 might be better that PLAAF J11, but like maverick2009 said, it will remain inferior to MKI. Not because MKI is unbeatable, but because of inferior techs.
> 
> IAF MMRCA can only be countered by PAF with J10B and a capable AESA radar, or by purchasing other latest MMRCA like Rafale, or F18SH.




i doubt j-10b can compete with the mrca. why? well there are 5 a/c competing and surely the best will be picked and all 5 of those countries have more experience with airplanes than china does and if the best is picked it will CRUSH the j-10b. i mean look at the strengths of all the a/c compared with the j-10b.

-ef has supercruise and good electronics and good ew system
-rafael has 2nd best ew system in the world and claimed to have supercruise
-sh proven in many wars has best and cheapest weapons and also REALLY good aesa and ew systems
-f-16 same as sh
-mig-35 aesa is prolly 3rd best after sh and f-16 and mig has more design experience than dassault or ef team, that combined with proven Israeli/western avionics, ew systems, and tvc make this 1 powerful bird
-gripen ppl say its the underdog but it prolly has the least maintenence costs and can be operated from anywhere and is comparable to the f-16/lca block 2 which has 100 kn engine, aesa, and possibly tvc. there are also reports of it supercruising without weapons load... why's this important? u can get back faster after a mission is done.


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## sancho

Gucci Juice said:


> i doubt j-10b can compete with the mrca. why? well there are 5 a/c competing and surely the best will be picked and all 5 of those countries have more experience with airplanes than china does and if the best is picked it will CRUSH the j-10b. i mean look at the strengths of all the a/c compared with the j-10b.
> 
> -ef has supercruise and good electronics and good ew system
> -rafael has 2nd best ew system in the world and claimed to have supercruise
> -sh proven in many wars has best and cheapest weapons and also REALLY good aesa and ew systems
> -f-16 same as sh
> -mig-35 aesa is prolly 3rd best after sh and f-16 and mig has more design experience than dassault or ef team, that combined with proven Israeli/western avionics, ew systems, and tvc make this 1 powerful bird
> -gripen ppl say its the underdog but it prolly has the least maintenence costs and can be operated from anywhere and is comparable to the f-16/lca block 2 which has 100 kn engine, aesa, and possibly tvc. there are also reports of it supercruising without weapons load... why's this important? u can get back faster after a mission is done.


First of all, I don't think that the best aircraft must win MMRCA, but that aircraft that suits best to MKI, LCA and FGFA, or that aircraft that offers most ToT, even a political choice is likely. 

I can't agree with you on China and J10, they learned a lot by reassembling Mig 21 and Su 27 and the base of the J10 is the Israeli Levy, which is an improved F16 design. The actual AL 31 engine should provide comparable thrust to J10 as Gripen NG, or F16 block 52 (the GE engines of block 60 have more thrust) and rumors says the TVC nozzels of MKI are on offer. Also there were reports of the same Zhuk AESA radar on offer for J10b in the J10 thread. PAF surley can add western avionics, or weapons like mica on it too and who knows how good the Chinese radar and engine will be, maybe even better than Rafales.
The point is, the base is pretty comparable to F16IN, Gripen NG and Mig 35 and these would give F18SH, EF, Rafale of course MKI also a tough time. Much will depend on which radar, EWS, engine and weapons it will have and how good they will be.

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## maverick2009

36 j10 v 126 mrca = mrca wins me thinks.

regardless of wat radar or weapons paf may source.


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## SBD-3

maverick2009 said:


> 36 j10 v 126 mrca = mrca wins me thinks.
> 
> regardless of wat radar or weapons paf may source.



Do you really think that PAF is gonna sleep with IAF increasing the number of planes?
well PAF will increase J-10Bs if MCRA is gone ahead.
other option includes J-11B as well

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## Jako

hasnain0099 said:


> Do you really think that PAF is gonna sleep with IAF increasing the number of planes?
> well PAF will increase J-10Bs if MCRA is gone ahead.
> other option includes J-11B as well



no i dont think,you are already going ahead with 250 thunders.....,.avialibility of funds for investing in another jet may be the biggest hurdle for pak


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## Gucci Juice

sancho said:


> First of all, I don't think that the best aircraft must win MMRCA, but that aircraft that suits best to MKI, LCA and FGFA, or that aircraft that offers most ToT, even a political choice is likely.
> 
> I can't agree with you on China and J10, they learned a lot by reassembling Mig 21 and Su 27 and the base of the J10 is the Israeli Levy, which is an improved F16 design. The actual AL 31 engine should provide comparable thrust to J10 as Gripen NG, or F16 block 52 (the GE engines of block 60 have more thrust) and rumors says the TVC nozzels of MKI are on offer. Also there were reports of the same Zhuk AESA radar on offer for J10b in the J10 thread. PAF surley can add western avionics, or weapons like mica on it too and who knows how good the Chinese radar and engine will be, maybe even better than Rafales.
> The point is, the base is pretty comparable to F16IN, Gripen NG and Mig 35 and these would give F18SH, EF, Rafale of course MKI also a tough time. Much will depend on which radar, EWS, engine and weapons it will have and how good they will be.



f-16 IN and Gripen NG are way more advanced than the j-10b in terms of avionics, radar, maintenance costs, and reliability.

the j-10 compares well with them aerodynamically but in terms of electronically... no.

and mig-35 with its tvc and high t/w ratio would fly circles around the j-10 not to mention more powerful electronics. 

heck if the lca recieves the 100 kn engine, aesa radar, and the eurojet offer for tvc is followed through it'll be superior to the j-10b and jf-17 not only in terms of avionics but also in terms of maneuverability (which right now the j-10 and jf-17 are better than lca in but their electronics are not on par with the lca). but lca blk 2 remains to be seen.

and dont forget the Indian standards are much higher than pakistani or even chinese standards so the best plane is likely to be picked. they dont take 8 years to decide on what plane to pick.


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## PAFAce

Gucci Juice said:


> f-16 IN and Gripen NG are way more advanced than the j-10b in terms of avionics, radar, maintenance costs, and reliability.
> 
> the j-10 compares well with them aerodynamically but in terms of electronically... no.
> 
> and mig-35 with its tvc and high t/w ratio would fly circles around the j-10 not to mention more powerful electronics.
> 
> heck if the lca recieves the 100 kn engine, aesa radar, and the eurojet offer for tvc is followed through it'll be superior to the j-10b and jf-17 not only in terms of avionics but also in terms of maneuverability (which right now the j-10 and jf-17 are better than lca in but their electronics are not on par with the lca). but lca blk 2 remains to be seen.
> 
> and dont forget the Indian standards are much higher than pakistani or even chinese standards so the best plane is likely to be picked. they dont take 8 years to decide on what plane to pick.


Ooh. Where do I start with this mess? You seem to be an expert on the J-10B and almost every aircraft in the MMRCA contest. Moreover, you seem pretty damn sure of the superiority of the Indian standard, which tells me that it would be useless debating with you. 



maverick2009 said:


> 36 j10 v 126 mrca = mrca wins me thinks regardless of wat radar or weapons paf may source.


On paper, and One-on-one, yeah I agree with your assessment. But that is _if_ it stays just 36 J-10Bs. With 250 JF-17s, we'll have a solid defensive force. The J-10Bs and a handful of F-16 Block 52s will be enough of an offensive force to deter any Indian plans 1965 style. Ask yourself this question, why was Muhammad Ali the greatest boxer of all time? 

Also, we're obviously excluding the intangibles, such as training or the preparedness of the forces, in your assessment. Ask any military man, the intangibles are sometimes the most important factors of all. We've known that fact for thousands of years, just read "The Art of War".



sancho said:


> First of all, I don't think that the best aircraft must win MMRCA, but that aircraft that suits best to MKI, LCA and FGFA, or that aircraft that offers most ToT, even a political choice is likely.
> 
> I can't agree with you on China and J10, they learned a lot by reassembling Mig 21 and Su 27 and the base of the J10 is the Israeli Levy, which is an improved F16 design. The actual AL 31 engine should provide comparable thrust to J10 as Gripen NG, or F16 block 52 (the GE engines of block 60 have more thrust) and rumors says the TVC nozzels of MKI are on offer. Also there were reports of the same Zhuk AESA radar on offer for J10b in the J10 thread. PAF surley can add western avionics, or weapons like mica on it too and who knows how good the Chinese radar and engine will be, maybe even better than Rafales.
> The point is, the base is pretty comparable to F16IN, Gripen NG and Mig 35 and these would give F18SH, EF, Rafale of course MKI also a tough time. Much will depend on which radar, EWS, engine and weapons it will have and how good they will be.


A much needed voice of reason. Thank you sir. I won't say the J-10B gives us an edge over the IAF (qualitatively), but it definitely gives them something to think about, which is more than enough to prevent wars.

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## aimarraul

Jako said:


> no i dont think,you are already going ahead with 250 thunders.....,.avialibility of funds for investing in another jet may be the biggest hurdle for pak



pakistan will have their own-made F-20 line someday,worry about your LCA ,pakitan's JF-17 line is already working now,and we will give them j-10 or j-11 first without talking about money if it's necessary,that's what brother country means,china is in danger if pakistan is in danger

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## MZUBAIR

Growler said:


> sohailbutt said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> yaar you are talking of a spare parts eating meachine heavy weight class F-15s for paf? lately all F-15E were grounded due to brake up of fuselage in midair!
> 
> the best answer to indian 126 MRCA will be a squadron of EF-2000 backed up with Erieye AWACS!
> 
> the most likely 126 MRCA will be Mig-35 or Gripens..
> india cant just all of suden put all eggs in uncle sam's basket... MRCA, Nuke deal, SAMs, radars etc.... Russia cant afford such loss in defence market!
> or... Russia may sell its MRCA to Pakistan to cover up the loss from indian MRCA deal..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This can only happen, If Pakistan have money in their pocket........atleast 6 billion $
Click to expand...


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## Jako

aimarraul said:


> pakistan will have their own-made F-20 line someday,worry about your LCA ,pakitan's JF-17 line is already working now,and we will give them j-10 or j-11 first without talking about money if it's necessary,that's what brother country means,china is in danger if pakistan is in danger



buddy ,we are having a discussion here ,what is this-'you take care of lca' crap?.........also,'we'll give them free jets and all',who are you?...chinese president?.....anybody wd laugh at your kiddish post........period........pakistan wd not go for more than 50 j10b's in the next decade or so,seeing their orders of the thunder it feels like.....also they will be getting mlu-ed and new f16-blk52-s...,...with all this in line,funding is definitely a problem for pak


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## MZUBAIR

maverick2009 said:


> 36 j10 v 126 mrca = mrca wins me thinks.
> 
> regardless of wat radar or weapons paf may source.



Dear, PAF will get 36 J-10B in 2010-11. At that time there will be no MRCA .................126 MRCA order will take atleast 8 to 9 years to get in IAF. Till then PAF will be more modernised.

So far, I think 126 MRCA deal is imaginary.....as discussion have been going since 2004 (When I first time heard abt MRCA deal).

At the moment PAF is taking J-10B for MKI.

PAF 2015 plan.

Chengdu FC-20 *Total 36* Multi-role 
Lockheed Martin F-16 C/D block 52+ *Total 18* Multi-role 
Lockheed Martin F-16AM/BM *Total 46* Multi-role 
Lockheed Martin F-16 Used *Total 26* Multi-role 
PAC JF-17 Thunder *Total 250* Multi-role 
Chengdu F-7PG/T Skybolt-G *Total 55 *Interceptor 
Dassault Mirage ROSE (PAF/PN) *Total 60 *Strike 
___________________________

IAF 2015 plan.

MiG-27 *Total 100 *
MiG-29 Fulcrum *Total 56 . *
Sukhoi Su-30MKI Flanker-H *Total 229* _ (1 Su-30 MKI has been lost to attrition). _

Dassault Mirage 2000 *Total 40 *
SEPECAT Jaguar France *Total 110*
HAL Tejas *Total 50* (If serial production starts in 2010).


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## MZUBAIR

Gucci Juice said:


> *f-16 IN and Gripen NG are way more advanced than the j-10b in terms of avionics, radar, maintenance costs, and reliability.
> 
> the j-10 compares well with them aerodynamically but in terms of electronically... no.*
> 
> and mig-35 with its tvc and high t/w ratio would fly circles around the j-10 not to mention more powerful electronics.
> 
> heck



Please discuss with proves, it looks childish when some one talks without logic.
These things looks stories.



> *if the lca recieves* the 100 kn engine, aesa radar, and the eurojet offer for tvc is followed through it'll be superior to the j-10b and jf-17 not only in terms of avionics but also in terms of maneuverability (which right now the j-10 and jf-17 are better than lca in but their electronics are not on par with the lca). but lca blk 2 remains to be seen.



Dont put this, *IF*.

Mr *IF* can even do many more things for Pakistan.



> and dont forget the Indian standards are much higher than pakistani or even chinese standards


     

This reminds me my childhood proverb *"Apnay moon mian meeetho"*



> so the best plane is likely to be picked. they dont take 8 years to decide on what plane to pick.


U already wasted 6 years...........First time I heard abt MRCA in 2004.


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## duhastmish

I think -* paf's best answer to- MRCA should be *-* PAFKUT*- A NEW social networking site where people could talk and chat for 24 hours and end up wanting more.

*MRCA is just a social networking unit - as proven by - mrca thread in DEFENCE.PK- NOTHING happens we just talk for years and i see the trend to contibue since MRCA is never goign to happen - if IAF can tap its potentiam it can outrace - FACEBOOK. *


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## MZUBAIR

duhastmish said:


> I think -* paf's best answer to- MRCA should be *-* PAFKUT*- A NEW social networking site where people could talk and chat for 24 hours and end up wanting more.
> 
> *MRCA is just a social networking unit - as proven by - mrca thread in DEFENCE.PK- NOTHING happens we just talk for years and i see the trend to contibue since MRCA is never goign to happen - if IAF can tap its potentiam it can outrace - FACEBOOK. *



MRCA just looks imajinary now. Too much talks but nothing have happen so far.

Even India didnt performed complete flight tests of MRCA competetors.
I heard big Indian defence plans......but at the moment none of them exist.


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## Arsalan

*for indian fanboys*

well *MUZBAIR* you must get seriour about the discussion! 

offcoure we do not have any answer to the great MRCA which will even bring down the best we have , even if we get an F22 the INDIAN MRCA will bring them down as the F22 will be pakistani and the MRCA will be of the might indians ,. you talk about man behind machine but you forget there bhagwan roop pilots behind machine! 

*for seroius members*
well this is not the time to for finding an answer to MRCA, the deal is really goiing slow and will take 8 to 10 years before the induction starts so for the time being we must stick to the FC20 and the JF17 they will be good to tackel MKI, theis have been disscussed to death in many threads many times so let us just stop this and leave this thread for our indian friends to say whatever they want to say!

regards!

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## pakpower

Indians only can do one thing perfectly is to imagine things without vision or proper thoughts.


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## sancho

Gucci Juice said:


> f-16 IN and Gripen NG are way more advanced than the j-10b in terms of avionics, radar, maintenance costs, and reliability.


How can you tell, cause there is not much known about which avionics and radar it will get apart of the rumors I talked about before. Also even Gripen NGs radar is only under development, nobody can say at the moment how good it will be.
And if you are talking about costs, there should be no doubt about that J10 will be much cheaper (Gripen NG offer to Dutch $~70 million systemprice each).


Gucci Juice said:


> mig-35 with its tvc and high t/w ratio would fly circles around the j-10 not to mention more powerful electronics.


Again how can you be so sure about that? Mig 35 will have 2 x RD 33 MK with 90 Kn thrust, but there is no reliable statement of it's weigth and payload because it's only a prototype yet. J10b is also under development, but with one AL 31 engine it should have a good t/w ratio and as I said, TVC could be on offer for that aircraft to. 


Gucci Juice said:


> if the lca recieves the 100 kn engine, aesa radar, and the eurojet offer for tvc is followed through it'll be superior to the j-10b and jf-17 not only in terms of avionics but also in terms of maneuverability


Likely compared to JF 17, but not to J10, because it still will have more thrust, maybe tvc and canards.


PAFAce said:


> A much needed voice of reason. Thank you sir. I won't say the J-10B gives us an edge over the IAF (qualitatively), but it definitely gives them something to think about, which is more than enough to prevent wars.


I wouldn't say it either, cause too much of it's capabilities are unknown and the advantage of quantity should clearly remain on IAF side. But as you said it gives something to think about, because imo it comes close to some of MMRCA aerodynamically.


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## SBD-3

aimarraul said:


> pakistan will have their own-made F-20 line someday,worry about your LCA ,pakitan's JF-17 line is already working now,and we will give them j-10 or j-11 first without talking about money if it's necessary,that's what brother country means,china is in danger if pakistan is in danger



1st of all my deep regards for such a brotherful response

2ndly
well what can i say about LCA looking at its "successful" history i have suggested 2 beautiful names 
1) LCA (Long and Cumbersom Adventure)
2) LCA (Cant post here hehehe not allowed)
any ways while talking about IAF superiority we should also keep in mind that incase IAF makes an agression PAF will have
1)extensive SAM network with different missiles like FT-2000 Sams known as AWACS killers
2)*8!* Aewacs to gat servaillence as compared to 3
3)home territory advantage
4)Pairing ACs Skybolts,Thunders and vanaguards working togather and perhayps F-16s as well
so match is evenly poised

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## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> Dear, PAF will get 36 J-10B in 2010-11. At that time there will be no MRCA .................126 MRCA order will take atleast 8 to 9 years to get in IAF. Till then PAF will be more modernised.
> 
> So far, I think 126 MRCA deal is imaginary.....as discussion have been going since 2004 (When I first time heard abt MRCA deal).
> 
> At the moment PAF is taking J-10B for MKI.
> 
> PAF 2015 plan.
> 
> Chengdu FC-20 *Total 36* Multi-role
> Lockheed Martin F-16 C/D block 52+ *Total 18* Multi-role
> Lockheed Martin F-16AM/BM *Total 46* Multi-role
> Lockheed Martin F-16 Used *Total 26* Multi-role
> PAC JF-17 Thunder *Total 250* Multi-role
> Chengdu F-7PG/T Skybolt-G *Total 55 *Interceptor
> Dassault Mirage ROSE (PAF/PN) *Total 60 *Strike
> ___________________________
> 
> IAF 2015 plan.
> 
> MiG-27 *Total 100 *
> MiG-29 Fulcrum *Total 56 . *
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI Flanker-H *Total 229* _ (1 Su-30 MKI has been lost to attrition). _
> 
> Dassault Mirage 2000 *Total 40 *
> SEPECAT Jaguar France *Total 110*
> HAL Tejas *Total 50* (If serial production starts in 2010).


Some corrections:

From JF17 thread:


> *Originally Posted by SSGPA1*
> What is the capacity like?
> I heard that initially we will make 4-6 and then later on that capcity will increase to 8-10 AC each yr.
> *Answerd by Mean_bird *
> Around 6 this year and the capacity will reach 25/yr when production peaks (probably by 2011).




Even if production could peak at 25 a year in 2011, there will be only around 150 by 2015 

From J10 thread:


> *Article posted by Youdiedz*
> While there were rumors of the PAF receiving its first J-10s as early as 2009, the purchase has been delayed to 2014/2015.



So at the same time when MMRCA will arrive in IAF

First MMRCA squad produced by winning country is planed for induction in 2014. LCA mk1 production will start next year, but only 40 are on order and you forgot around 100 Mig 21 Bisons that will serve till 2020.


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## maverick2009

MZUBAIR PAF is not receving 36 J10B in 2010-2011. This topic was discussed to death the Chinease J10 is coming to PAF in 2015 as per ACM of Pakistan. 

See earlier post. 

Ask yourself why is it that PAF was offered 36 F16 blk 52 BUT CHOSE ONLY 18 

Why have PAF only ordered 36 J10 or indeed 42 JF17.. 

Where as india orders 190 mki and follows on another 40.

Will order 126 mrca and follows on with another 74 prehaps. 

The reason is $$$$$

PAF biggest stumbliing block to acheving even near parity to IAF is financial constraints/hardship.


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## MZUBAIR

sancho said:


> Some corrections:
> 
> From JF17 thread:
> 
> Even if production could peak at 25 a year in 2011, there will be only around 150 by 2015



Dear,
PAC is not the only production industry for PAF. China is also producing them for PAF. This year Pakistan is geting 42 Jf-17 from China, dealed signed on 7th March.

For your reference, There are many reference websites, but I am refering Indian web site. so you can believe.

42 JF-17 will be peoduced by China this year (signed in March)

Pakistan have already 8 JF-17. 

PAC started production of JF-17 on 30th June 2006. 
PAC will produce 6 JF-17 this year. By 2011, the production will rise to 16 and from 2012 it will be 25 per year.

So, you can count.

JF-17 
*Year 2010.*
8 (already have) + 42 (From China) + 6 (PAC will produce)
Total Could be = 56

1st Sqd will be up this year......usually Sqd have 30 + crafts......and its announced in March that PAF will be equiped Peshawar Air base with JF-17 in the end of this year.

*Year 2011.*
PAC will produce 16 and Pakistan might order few more from China.
Total could reach = 70 - 80

*Year 2012.*
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 100+

*Year 2013.*
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 120+

*Year 2013.*
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 150+

*Year 2014.*
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 175+

*Year 2015.*
PAC will produce 25 this year
Total could reach = 200+

(May be PAF will order more 40 to 50 from China in 2012,2013,2014,205).

I hope you have no comments abt quantity now.
Where as quality will also be improved within these 5 years.



> From J10 thread:
> 
> So at the same time when MMRCA will arrive in IAF
> 
> First MMRCA squad produced by winning country is planed for induction in 2014. LCA mk1 production will start next year, but only 40 are on order and *you forgot around 100 Mig 21 Bisons that will serve till 2020.*



May be PAF will get J-10B in 2014 but they will surely get them b4 2015.......whereas....its impossible to get 126 MRCA b4 2015 , IAF yet to descide which to buy with which features.

Dear I read abt Mig-21 that IAF is retiring them in 2011. Any ways if IAF even keeps them, then there wouldnt be a big difference.

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## MZUBAIR

maverick2009 said:


> MZUBAIR PAF is not receving 36 J10B in 2010-2011. This topic was discussed to death the Chinease J10 is coming to PAF in 2015 as per ACM of Pakistan.
> [QUOTE/]
> 
> Oh man, u always make me fire......some day Mods will ban me.
> Even PAF get J-10B in 2015, it wouldnt be a matter coz I have wrote abt the PAF proposed 2015 plan (It can be modified).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See earlier post.
> 
> Ask yourself why is it that PAF was offered 36 F16 blk 52 BUT CHOSE ONLY 18
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh man, where u live ....dont think so negative.....ur making me hard.
> PAF went for 18 only coz we needed money for those who suffered in Earth quake.........we have still option to buy more ......Pakistan think abt their people .......GoP dont let their poor suffered people to sleep on roads.
> 
> Besides that money was also used for other projects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why have PAF only ordered 36 J10 or indeed 42 JF17..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because J-10 was on evaluation, Now J-10 B is proposed and PAF is looking for that.
> Hopefully GoP will buy 15 to 20 more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where as india orders 190 mki and follows on another 40.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I m not comparing with MKI. JF-17 will be enough for that.....please move to other thread JF-17 vs MKI
> 
> 
> 
> Will order 126 mrca and follows on with another 74 prehaps.
> 
> The reason is $$$$$
> 
> PAF biggest stumbliing block to acheving even near parity to IAF is financial constraints/hardship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, far u havent signed any deal......first sign the deal then talk abt 126 MRCA....
Click to expand...

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## Arsalan

MZUBAIR said:


> So, far u havent signed any deal......first sign the deal then talk abt 126 MRCA....




havent signed a deal  
brother they are not even clear that for which plane they should go for and even the evaluation of all the contenders have sopped before it finished! it has been quite for some time now but i do not dare to say that the deal may go down the sink!!

when our U214 deal hit silience for some time they say that it have been dumped but when there MRCA go silience it is there stealth mode!!!  

regards!

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## SBD-3

i see indians chanting "Drop LCA for MRCA, Drop Pak Fa for MCA"
hay guys it seems pretty strange that India is looking at 3 5th generation platforms, 1 MCA 2 PAK-FA 3 FG-FA what could be the reason? i mean is it that IAF is not sure about their success and wants "to hit more darts to have a bullseye"?


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## Jako

hasnain0099 said:


> i see indians chanting "Drop LCA for MRCA, Drop Pak Fa for MCA"
> hay guys it seems pretty strange that India is looking at 3 5th generation platforms, 1 MCA 2 PAK-FA 3 FG-FA what could be the reason? i mean is it that IAF is not sure about their success and wants "to hit more darts to have a bullseye"?



the post above shows your lack of knowledge on the issue............fgfa is actually the two sitter version of pak-fa,which india is acquiring......fgfa is custom made for india......


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## PAFAce

sancho said:


> SFirst MMRCA squad produced by winning country is planed for induction in 2014. LCA mk1 production will start next year, but only 40 are on order and you forgot around 100 Mig 21 Bisons that will serve till 2020.


The MMRCA contest winner will be announced in 2013/2014 according to Aviation Weekly. Therefore, I'm guessing that deliveries will probabl begin 2015 onwards. As for the LCA, you're right about Mk.1, but the primary focus will be on Mk.2, which is still very much in the design phase. In fact, they're talking about a new engine and AESA radars for it, and are speaking with Italian and French companies.



Jako said:


> fgfa is actually the two sitter version of pak-fa,which india is acquiring......fgfa is custom made for india......


Correct Jako. India's best bet for a true next-gen capability, and it will definitely be a headache for us in a few years time. MCA, well, I'm not so sure about that. If I were an Indian tax-payer, I'd definitely ask more questions about the LCA and MCA programs and their feasibility.

*Getting back to the topic of this debate*
I still believe that if PAF can build a solid back-bone of JF-17s, and then acquire a handsome number of FC-20s and F-16s for the power punch, we will have a decent counter to any Indian aerial threat, keeping in mind our strategy and past experiences. According to IAF Chief of Air Staff FH Major, the quantitative gap with respect to Pakistan won't get much bigger by 2020 (39 IAF Squadrons), therefore, if we beef up our quantity without sacrificing quality, we'll be able to achieve a good match without having to spend like the Indians. 

In a few years time, when the FGFA and/or the MCA are a reality, we'll need to upgrade, but by then we'll hopefully be in a better position and there will be more available to us. Inducting a squadron or two of J-11s or another hi-tech fighter, at the expense of 4 or 5 squadrons of cheaper but marginally less potent fighters, will add more hassle than good, in my opinion.

In short, we should stick to what we do best and just increase the numbers. Fortune favours the brave, but the wise make their own fortune.


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## BSF

I never called Jf 17 Vanilla model, it was Keysersoze
SUPER MODERATORS here



> Dude do you think at all? In the event of a J-11 procurement do you think that the PAf would just take the* vanilla model?* They didn't with the J-7 j-10 so why would they with the J-11?



I was just replying to him in that sense.


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## SBD-3

PAFAce said:


> Correct Jako. India's best bet for a true next-gen capability, and it will definitely be a headache for us in a few years time. MCA, well, I'm not so sure about that. If I were an Indian tax-payer, I'd definitely ask more questions about the LCA and MCA programs and their feasibility.
> 
> *Getting back to the topic of this debate*
> I still believe that if PAF can build a solid back-bone of JF-17s, and then acquire a handsome number of FC-20s and F-16s for the power punch, we will have a decent counter to any Indian aerial threat, keeping in mind our strategy and past experiences. According to IAF Chief of Air Staff FH Major, the quantitative gap with respect to Pakistan won't get much bigger by 2020 (39 IAF Squadrons), therefore, if we beef up our quantity without sacrificing quality, we'll be able to achieve a good match without having to spend like the Indians.
> 
> In a few years time, when the FGFA and/or the MCA are a reality, we'll need to upgrade, but by then we'll hopefully be in a better position and there will be more available to us. Inducting a squadron or two of J-11s or another hi-tech fighter, at the expense of 4 or 5 squadrons of cheaper but marginally less potent fighters, will add more hassle than good, in my opinion.
> 
> In short, we should stick to what we do best and just increase the numbers. Fortune favours the brave, but the wise make their own fortune.



Well PAF is fully aware of that and would definatly hav some plans in mind as well dont worry 
Many people argue that future is with stealth ACs.But to me the future still belongs to manuverable,Agile and competent ACs.Do you really expect the world to be sitting Idle while Stealth ACs patrolling the skies freely?
Trust me its not long that we start hearing about the developments of Stealth finding radars as the stealthy birds take to sky.Kolchuga is one example where the Ukranians claiming that it is capable of detecting Stealth ACs like Raptors.If stealth is compromised then one only needs a good pilot and a good plane thats it 
We should not be tempted instead keep enhancing FC-20 and JF-17 and a possible J-11 acquisition is a real threat is posed by IAF

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## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> Dear,
> PAC is not the only production industry for PAF. China is also producing them for PAF. This year Pakistan is geting 42 Jf-17 from China, dealed signed on 7th March.
> 
> For your reference, There are many reference websites, but I am refering Indian web site. so you can believe.
> 
> That's right I forgot about them.





MZUBAIR said:


> 1st Sqd will be up this year......usually Sqd have 30 + crafts......and its announced in March that PAF will be equiped Peshawar Air base with JF-17 in the end of this year.
> 30+? 8 are there + 6 will be produced this year, that's 14 a squad right?
> 
> 
> MZUBAIR said:
> 
> 
> 
> May be PAF will get J-10B in 2014 but they will surely get them b4 2015.......whereas....its impossible to get 126 MRCA b4 2015 , IAF yet to descide which to buy with which features.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody said that there will be 126 of them, but the first squad (18 in IAF) for sure and J10 are facing the same decision at the moment, cause no radar and engine is cleared.
> 
> 
> MZUBAIR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear I read abt Mig-21 that IAF is retiring them in 2011. Any ways if IAF even keeps them, then there wouldnt be a big difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> IAF will retire around 150 Mig 21 (M/MF and Bis), but the Bisons are upgraded versions, they will serve longer and to have 100 more aircrafts or not does make a difference.
Click to expand...


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## sancho

PAFAce said:


> The MMRCA contest winner will be announced in 2013/2014 according to Aviation Weekly. Therefore, I'm guessing that deliveries will probabl begin 2015 onwards. As for the LCA, you're right about Mk.1, but the primary focus will be on Mk.2, which is still very much in the design phase. In fact, they're talking about a new engine and AESA radars for it, and are speaking with Italian and French companies.


I think that info is wrong, cause the trials will start between this and next month and a decision will be announced at the end of 2010, or beginning 2011. Production in India will start around 2014 but in the meantime the first squad will be in production outside of India. 


PAFAce said:


> *Getting back to the topic of this debate*
> I still believe that if PAF can build a solid back-bone of JF-17s, and then acquire a handsome number of FC-20s and F-16s for the power punch, we will have a decent counter to any Indian aerial threat, keeping in mind our strategy and past experiences. According to IAF Chief of Air Staff FH Major, the quantitative gap with respect to Pakistan won't get much bigger by 2020 (39 IAF Squadrons), therefore, if we beef up our quantity without sacrificing quality, we'll be able to achieve a good match without having to spend like the Indians.


A solid backbone yes, but but only at the lower end of PAF! You must admit that it won't be as good as J10 or F16 block 52 and these will be the quality fighters of PAF. The quantitative edge might be reduced a bit, but with MKI, MMRCA and already inducted AWACS and in development 5. gen fighter the qualitatively edge will stay clearly on IAF side.
IMO PAF is counting on the wrong aircraft and should build numbers of J10 instead of JF17.


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## blain2

A bird in hand is better than two in the bush. One can always think high and mighty about things to come. PAF must stick with JF-17. It is a great aircraft that will be very current for the region in which it will operate. The cost to maintain, equip and fly it would be much more reasonable than a larger aircraft such as J-10. 

Secondly, IAF is no where close to a fifth gen aircraft. In the absence of such, the currently envisaged combination of JF-17, F-16s, upgraded Mirages and FC-20s will do just fine.

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## PAFAce

sancho said:


> I think that info is wrong, cause the trials will start between this and next month and a decision will be announced at the end of 2010, or beginning 2011. Production in India will start around 2014 but in the meantime the first squad will be in production outside of India.


As of February 16, 2009, the CAS of IAF, ACM Fali Homi Major, was hopeful that "By 2017 we will have what we want", referring to the MMRCA competition. This tells me that he is looking beyond a 2013/14 delivery date, but I may have misinterpreted his meaning. Also, the article was titled "Last Man Standing: Patience will likely be a virtue in India's multibillion-dollar fighter duel", and on the Table of Contents it said "Participants in India's fighter competition girding for long haul, test of stamina for the $10-billion prize". All this points out that the MMRCA selection is way behind where they want it to be (winner announced by 2010), which is understandable, since nobody had initially expected such a huge contest anyway.



> A solid backbone yes, but but only at the lower end of PAF! You must admit that it won't be as good as J10 or F16 block 52 and these will be the quality fighters of PAF.


That is exactly what I said. The backbone fighter isn't always the best fighter, the one-two punch will still be F-16 MLU/Block52 and FC-20. 



> The quantitative edge might be reduced a bit, but with MKI, MMRCA and already inducted AWACS and in development 5. gen fighter the qualitatively edge will stay clearly on IAF side.


It is difficult to say whether the qualitative gap between the PAF and IAF will increase, decrease or remain the same. We must remember that F-16MLU, F-16 Block52s, FC-20 and the Erieye and ZDK-03 combination will significantly boost PAF capabilities. I, personally, expect the quantitative gap to increase, in favor of India, but still remain within Pakistan's comfort zone after the new inductions. As for quality, I can't comment on whether the gap will increase or decrease, there are just too many unknowns. I do expect India to maintain its qualitative superiority for at least a few years.

Also, as blain said, the IAF is not going to have an operational 5th generation fighter anytime soon. I doubt it will even have one by the end of the next decade since the MMRCA will finish induction in 2020+ (according to your CAS). It would be foolish for the PAF to try to counter that potential threat right now, but planning ahead is always a good idea.



> IMO PAF is counting on the wrong aircraft and should build numbers of J10 instead of JF17.


Allow me to respectfully but strongly disagree. I believe the JF-17 is the perfect fighter for us to be producing. Numbers of the FC-20 will increase over time, I don't expect only 36 to be inducted. Just as the IAF is taking its own sweet time in deciding the MMRCA, the PAF is probably doing the same. Any induction in the PAF will have to be reactive, depending on the threat assessment. Give it a few years.


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## SBD-3

I know JF-17 is perhaps not one of the top line ACs but it is very important in terms of 
1) PAF will acquire significant knowledge of AC manufacturing 
2) Low cost and Manintainence
3) Faster Availability
4) Rapid Local Adaptibility in case of FC-20 or J-11 as lot of avionics simmilarities 
JF-17 Block 2 and three will be significantly upgraded and at par with most moderen ACs in Avionics.In AWACS front PAF will have significant Advantage by achieveing greater Radar Coverage than IAF.With MICA meteor BVRs inducted in Block 2 it will be a force to recon in the ACs world.
if JF 17-X becomes a reality (Possiblity) PAF would be able to siginificantly reduce the gap

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## Wingman

BATMAN said:


> I think in Indian MRCA race F-16 have 51% chances and F-18 49%.
> I think PAF's admiration of F-16 has earned it a lot of respect and perhaps made it the most sold aircraft from US.
> The element of enemy already having it can be argued by them by declaring it as Indian version, different from block 50 or MLU F-16 of PAF.
> Eurofighter have definite 0% chances, mainly because of its cost.
> Rafale has been already declined, grippen have the potential because PAF has also attested it during evaluation, but failed to induct in past due to financial constraints.
> 
> In my opinion so far PAF is on 90% right track. If they thought they need a western fighter in the face of Indian MRCA than F-16block50 is the winner choice.
> I think J-10B (advance J-10) will eventually and soon reach to the level of Rafale, Grippen, and Typhoon. Multi role but in PAF, I suppose will be more suitable for strike roles.
> 
> Thunder will also eventually and soon develop to block 50 levels and further more.
> 
> Infect, I have analyzed the pros and cons of both buying foreign and developing local and I have come to the conclusion that more you buy foreign more you help them to develop and more you keep yourself away from being developing and more you spend on local more you help yourself to develop and more you retard the development of foreign product, which may eventually be used against you.
> 
> If Indians buy any American or European the cost of 126 may truly reach around 15b$+.
> If we assume India places the order of MRCA in 2009 than it will take at least 3 years (2012) for them to get some deliveries and training. By that time I expect Dragon to develop at comparable level.
> Hence Pakistan should continue on its track and keep developing local products in venture with Turkey and China.
> Anyway, we have the minimum detterence in worst case, senario.
> Our ROSE mirrages are equally advance as any of present Indian fighter.



You read my mind, I totally agree with you......Great Analysis


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## Wingman

CanadianPad said:


> i agree.... try to spend money wisely then spend on defence.
> every year military comes out with these big budget items..... where is the money for that.
> India can spend ..let them spend.They can certainly afford it.
> Canada only has F-18's..... they dont go out and spend cause they dont have to.
> Defence needs changes with time.......its time Pak military look at its defence differently.



Yaar CP, you live abroad and criticise on the Military Budget, at least we have to do something against any possible threats from our neighbours.
*Pak military is really looking defence differently*, by becoming SELF RELIANT

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## Wingman

Growler said:


> sohailbutt said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> the best answer to indian 126 MRCA will be a squadron of EF-2000 backed up with Erieye AWACS!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think FC-20 (J-10) should be opted instead of EF2000
Click to expand...


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## Arsalan

dreamer said:


> Growler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think FC-20 (J-10) should be opted instead of EF2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and i bet it is like this!!
> 
> regards!
Click to expand...


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## Manticore

A twin engined chinese 4.5++ is rumoured... i think it would be an hybrid of j11b and j10b....... wether they call it j10c, j13... but it might be the answer 3 squadrons of it plus j10b will maintain the balance in the region plus a deep attack capability.it might be the same plane that paf is also rumoured to unveil in 2 years


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## Arsalan

ANTIBODY said:


> A twin engined chinese 4.5++ is rumoured... i think it would be an hybrid of j11b and j10b....... wether they call it j10c, j13... but it might be the answer 3 squadrons of it plus j10b will maintain the balance in the region plus a deep attack capability.it might be the same plane that paf is also rumoured to unveil in 2 years



the twin engine do not fall into PAF doctroine and also i dont see PAF inducting a new plane in such small time fframe as we already have planned JF17, FC0, F16 Block 52 and MLU and the AWACS so it do not seem to happen that PAF go for yet another new platform specially when we have the plans to move on to block 2 of JF17!!

regards!


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> The cost to maintain, equip and fly it would be much more reasonable than a larger aircraft such as J-10.


I read that very often here, but can you explain why? Both aircrafts are single engine and pretty much in the same class. They are using the same weapons and as it is stated in the J10 thread have some comonality in systems and also in radar. So why should the maintenance of J10 be so much higher, it can't be just the bigger engine right?


PAFAce said:


> As of February 16, 2009, the CAS of IAF, ACM Fali Homi Major, was hopeful that "By 2017 we will have what we want", referring to the MMRCA competition. This tells me that he is looking beyond a 2013/14 delivery date, but I may have misinterpreted his meaning. Also, the article was titled "Last Man Standing: Patience will likely be a virtue in India's multibillion-dollar fighter duel", and on the Table of Contents it said "Participants in India's fighter competition girding for long haul, test of stamina for the $10-billion prize". All this points out that the MMRCA selection is way behind where they want it to be (winner announced by 2010), which is understandable, since nobody had initially expected such a huge contest anyway.


This article is newer:


> Commercial negotiations are expected to begin once the IAF completes its evaluation some time in 2010. Under existing terms and conditions the first aircraft deliveries will commence3 only four years after a contract is signed.


domain-b.com : Flight trials for IAF's MMRCA tender set to commence



PAFAce said:


> It is difficult to say whether the qualitative gap between the PAF and IAF will increase, decrease or remain the same. *We must remember that F-16MLU, F-16 Block52s, FC-20 and the Erieye and ZDK-03 combination will significantly boost PAF capabilities*. I, personally, expect the quantitative gap to increase, in favor of India, but still remain within Pakistan's comfort zone after the new inductions. As for quality, I can't comment on whether the gap will increase or decrease, there are just too many unknowns. I do expect India to maintain its qualitative superiority for at least a few years.


That's right, but will this boost close the gap, or is just a try to stay on the ball? F16 MLU to counter IAF BVR threat, F16 Bock 52 to counter Su 30 MKI threat, J10 to counter MMRCA, Erieye to counter Phalcon. 
As I said because of the replacements of Mig 21 and 27 in the next years, the quantity gap could be reduced (not sure how many PAF fighters will be replaced), but in quality reasons I think the gap will remain or even rise, because it seems like IAF is always one step ahead. Of course 5. gen fighters might only come around 2018 - 2020, but they already are under development and PAF will need something new to be on par with them again. 


PAFAce said:


> Allow me to respectfully but strongly disagree. I believe the JF-17 is the perfect fighter for us to be producing. Numbers of the FC-20 will increase over time, I don't expect only 36 to be inducted. Just as the IAF is taking its own sweet time in deciding the MMRCA, the PAF is probably doing the same. Any induction in the PAF will have to be reactive, depending on the threat assessment. Give it a few years.


No problem, this should be a discussion and I only expressed my point of view and I am open for good argues. 

I also think sooner or later there will be more J10s, but my point was, that J10 is pretty much in the same class as JF17, but more capable. A PAF with 250 J10 as their backbone fighter, instead of 250 JF17 would be totally different don't you think? As I said above to blain2, I don't see much cost difference between both aircrafts, but in performance there should be a clear difference! 
And with them as the backbone fighter, it would be easier to add some double engine medium, or even heavy class fighters. 
In fact isn't PLAAF doing just the same? As far as I know they won't have much FC 1, but numbers of FC 20 right? They will add them alongside of the heavy J11 and Su 30 MKK, so if that is the best choice for them and you are developing those fighters and techs more or less together, why wasn't it also the best choice for PAF?


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> In AWACS front PAF will have significant Advantage by achieveing greater Radar Coverage than IAF.With MICA meteor BVRs inducted in Block 2 it will be a force to recon in the ACs world.


Actually the IAF AWACS has the advantage in radar coverage against Erieye (450 -500 Km in all directions vs ~ 450 Km mainly to left and right side of the aircraft), it was discussed in the AWACS thread. 
Mica and Meteor are 2 different missiles, Mica might be good, but has less range than SD 10, Astra, AMRAAM, or R77, so it won't be such a game changer. Also I doubt Meteor will be inducted in JF 17, it is very costly and might be only on offer for European aircrafts.


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## Gucci Juice

pak-fa...

prototype should fly this year or 2010.

production should begin by 2014-2015

5 years is enough to complete development especially after 2 5th gen demonstrators have already flown (Su-47) and (Mig-39 MFI).

and the contract for 3 more phalcons will be signed soon and they are a generation ahead of the current phalcons (at least that's what i read). and the y-8 or w.e. isn't very advanced compared to the eriyie.

by 2015 we are looking at

230 mki
65 mig-29 m2
50 mirage 2009
30 lca blk 1
30 lca blk 2
46 mig-29k (16 and follow on order for 30 more has been signed)
120 jaguars upgraded with new engines, radar, and avionics
20-40 mrca
5-10 pak-fa prototype a/c for testing
40 mig-27
6 phalcons (1st 3 by 2011 next 3 should arrive faster)
6 il-78
6 airbus tankers
30 il-76
100 an-32
6 c-17
6 c-130
and like 500 helicopters of all kinds (light medium and heavy)

also for SAMS

spyder
matri (small numbers)
barak
barak ng (small numbers)
aad (small numbers)
pad (small numbers)
akash


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## Munir

Well, I think there is zero chance hat India makes any kind of attack on Pakistan. With so many weapons and nukes on both sides it is matter of equilibrium. They can have superduper MRCA. Hell they can make LCA equal to F22. he fact remains that hey canno dominate. Not in the case of China and also not when talking about Pakistan.

While their programs sound super (latest tech and assisance from every corner) it ends like the usual testresult. Don't take me wrong, I like the Indians. But they are no threat. They cannot handle that Pakistan survives and suprises with goodies like JF17, El Khaled, Babur, Ra'ad... All hey can do is copy Brahmos or say that they have bigger size or numbers...

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## PAFAce

sancho said:


> I read that very often here, but can you explain why? Both aircrafts are single engine and pretty much in the same class. They are using the same weapons and as it is stated in the J10 thread have some comonality in systems and also in radar. So why should the maintenance of J10 be so much higher, it can't be just the bigger engine right?
> 
> This article is newer:
> 
> domain-b.com : Flight trials for IAF's MMRCA tender set to commence


I don't know how reliable that link is. Also, I've quoted your very own Chief of Air Staff from an internationally reputed Aviation magazine. Therefore, forgive me if I still choose to disagree with you. I maintain, no MMRCA before 2015, or maybe late 2014. But I could be wrong.



Gucci Juice said:


> pak-fa...
> 
> prototype should fly this year or 2010.
> 
> production should begin by 2014-2015
> 
> 5 years is enough to complete development especially after 2 5th gen demonstrators have already flown (Su-47) and (Mig-39 MFI).
> 
> by 2015 we are looking at
> 
> 30 lca blk 1
> 30 lca blk 2
> 20-40 mrca
> 5-10 pak-fa prototype a/c for testing


Lots of wishful thinking. Let me just go one-by-one:

PAK-FA/FGFA: No IAF pilot will be flying any prototypes 2017. Apart from 1 Italian pilot, no non-US/UK pilot was allowed to fly the F-35 during the design phase. The IAF will see the aircraft _after _their Russian counterparts, not _with _them. Also, Russia just does not have the capability to produce anything like the F-22 yet before 2015. They will take their time to mature their technology, it's not like they face any immediate threats. They can afford to take their own sweet time, so why won't they?
LCA: I doubt you'll have 60 LCA's in service by 2015, especially Block 2. They have so many things to take care of before then, take Block 1 to a respectable end, select an engine for Block 2 (or keep burning money and time on the Kaveri), select an AESA, integrate the new systems, test fly the prototypes, induct Initial Production Models for preliminary tests and on and on. There's just too much ont he IAF's plate to devote much time to the LCA, therefore, no operational LCA Block 2 before 2015 either, in my opinion.
MMRCA: Like I said, your very own CAS doesn't expect the IAF to have substantial numbers of the MMRCA by 2017. Maybe initial models by 2014 or 2015, but that's about it.



Munir said:


> Well, I think there is zero chance hat India makes any kind of attack on Pakistan. With so many weapons and nukes on both sides it is matter of equilibrium. They can have superduper MRCA. Hell they can make LCA equal to F22. he fact remains that hey canno dominate. Not in the case of China and also not when talking about Pakistan.


Agreed. Neither country can afford to engage in any kind of a conventional war with the other. If they do, it'll be too short to utilize huge amounts of power. The Cold War between the two will continue, and I see no end unless India suddenly decides to heed to the Kashmiris' cries and both countries can magically agree to share water and other resources.

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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> Actually the IAF AWACS has the advantage in radar coverage against Erieye (450 -500 Km in all directions vs ~ 450 Km mainly to left and right side of the aircraft), it was discussed in the AWACS thread.
> Mica and Meteor are 2 different missiles, Mica might be good, but has less range than SD 10, Astra, AMRAAM, or R77, so it won't be such a game changer. Also I doubt Meteor will be inducted in JF 17, it is very costly and might be only on offer for European aircrafts.


do not misguide him dear!

it have been discussed a billion time n the thread that the erieye have full 360 degree coverage with same range on 450Km in every direction!

now please do not come up with the idea that the indina Phalcon is better because it have a range on 1000km or even more! we have discussed this issue in detail!

so brother *hasnain* dont get upset dude!

regards!


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## MZUBAIR

sancho said:


> 1st Sqd will be up this year......usually Sqd have 30 + crafts......and its announced in March that PAF will be equiped Peshawar Air base with JF-17 in the end of this year.
> 30+? 8 are there + 6 will be produced this year, that's 14 a squad right?
> 
> Nobody said that there will be 126 of them, but the first squad (18 in IAF) for sure and J10 are facing the same decision at the moment, cause no radar and engine is cleared.
> 
> IAF will retire around 150 Mig 21 (M/MF and Bis), but the Bisons are upgraded versions, they will serve longer and to have 100 more aircrafts or not does make a difference.



Thanxs!!!...Ur analysis is good as compare to other Indians.
J-10B radar and engine in under evaluation phase. So lets see which is best.

JF-17 radar and engine will also be changed in 2011/2012


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## MZUBAIR

sancho said:


> I think that info is wrong, cause the trials will start between this and next month and a decision will be announced at the end of 2010, or beginning 2011. Production in India will start around 2014 but in the meantime the first squad will be in production outside of India.
> 
> A solid backbone yes, but but only at the lower end of PAF! You must admit that it won't be as good as J10 or F16 block 52 and these will be the quality fighters of PAF. The quantitative edge might be reduced a bit, but with MKI, MMRCA and already inducted AWACS and in development 5. gen fighter the qualitatively edge will stay clearly on IAF side.
> *IMO PAF is counting on the wrong aircraft and should build numbers of J10 instead of JF17*.


Ur underestimating JF-17. At the moment it can be compare with F-16 Block 40, soon it will be furthur improved to comapre with Block 52 F-16 and ultimate goal is Block 60, F-16.

So Approach is different as ur thinking. I feel that PAF planned it to counter MKI. 

250 JF-17 vs 250 MKI.

I am not comparing which is best or which is not , but Pakistan is making it to counter MKI. 

I agree that MKI is batter then JF-17 at the momment but
Pakistan's ultimate goal of Jf-17 would be to counter MKI.

JF-17 has great potentail to improve.

*Thats Y Pakistan is still looking for new engines, avoinics and radar for JF-17.*

F-16's are planned for mig 29
46 F-16 vs 56 Mig29

and J-10B for Indias MRCA deal.


Mirage 2K, Jaguar, Mig27 Mig 21 vs Mirage 3, Mirage 5, F-7PG.

J-10B is different sort of fighter, Its not a light air craft as JF-17 ...It would have more enhanced capabilities then JF-17.....ofcourse there may be many similarities in JF-17 n J-10B coz JF-17 been taken from Chinees technology.

Well, in the end I wuld say that Pakistan is progressing in the field of Air craft....so the more success on JF-17 will launch new rooms for 5th or 6th generation fighters. JF-17 is just beggining but Pakistan's ultimate goal is to achieve production capability of craft.....Pakistan is looking for future plans for 5th generation air craft.
________________________________________________

I hope this clears u many things.
I think at the moment PAF is going on right track.


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## Manticore

sancho said:


> I also think sooner or later there will be more J10s, but my point was, that J10 is pretty much in the same class as JF17, but more capable. A PAF with 250 J10 as their backbone fighter, instead of 250 JF17 would be totally different don't you think? As I said above to blain2, I don't see much cost difference between both aircrafts, but in performance there should be a clear difference!
> And with them as the backbone fighter, it would be easier to add some double engine medium, or even heavy class fighters.
> In fact isn't PLAAF doing just the same? As far as I know they won't have much FC 1, but numbers of FC 20 right? They will add them alongside of the heavy J11 and Su 30 MKK, so if that is the best choice for them and you are developing those fighters and techs more or less together, why wasn't it also the best choice for PAF?






The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s.

==>The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair - one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter.

==>Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it.

==>Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it.

==> Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.

==> Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.


While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.




JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.


The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19930-paf-shouldve-invested-more-j-10s-7.html

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## Manticore

the present jf17s are replacing a5s.... so its a great leap...
when block2 arrives, i hope its really upgraded to replace our old f7s

chinese and pakistans war docitrine is different.. furthermore it also depends on the enemy location... india is not that distant..so if equal avionic capability is obtained in self produced jf17 as compared to j10b.... in half the price, then thats great...just add them to an air-refueller.

yes i do like to have 3 squadrons of heavy/double engined jets... forget about the docitine of no double enjined jets.. with ws13, it would be great
paf has flown f6, a5 anyway which are double engined


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## sancho

PAFAce said:


> I don't know how reliable that link is. Also, I've quoted your very own Chief of Air Staff from an internationally reputed Aviation magazine. Therefore, forgive me if I still choose to disagree with you. I maintain, no MMRCA before 2015, or maybe late 2014. But I could be wrong.


I think you misinterpret his statement, cause he didn't say there won't be any MMRCA by 2017, but only substantial numbers right?
As I said only 1 squad will come from a foreign coutry, the rest will be licence produced like MKI and the production rate will be increased by time. So isn't he still right that there won't be big numbers ob MMRCA by 2017? 


arsalanaslam123 said:


> do not misguide him dear!
> 
> it have been discussed a billion time n the thread that the erieye have full 360 degree coverage with same range on 450Km in every direction!


I didn't, Erieye might have 360° coverage, but full detection range can only be offered to the sides, cause it has only 2 radar arrays heading to the sides. The rotodome on A50 instead gives full detection range to all directions. I explained it in the AWACS thread also on base of the Boeing 737 MESA AWACS (it uses a 3rd array on top to get detection to front and back sides).
I don't say Phalcon system is much better then Erieye, but the A50 platform with rotodome is better than any platforms with only 2 radar arrays (Saab 2000 Erieye, EMB 145 Erieye, DRDO AWACS...)


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## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> Ur underestimating JF-17. At the moment it can be compare with F-16 Block 40, soon it will be furthur improved to comapre with Block 52 F-16 and ultimate goal is Block 60, F-16.


That's what I am saying, the J10 already starts at F16 MLU level and goal of F16 block 60 can way easier achieved, than with JF17. 


MZUBAIR said:


> I feel that PAF planned it to counter MKI.
> 
> 250 JF-17 vs 250 MKI.
> 
> I am not comparing which is best or which is not , but Pakistan is making it to counter MKI.
> 
> I agree that MKI is batter then JF-17 at the momment but
> Pakistan's ultimate goal of Jf-17 would be to counter MKI.
> 
> JF-17 has great potentail to improve.


Sorry sir, I highly doubt that, specially against MKI! The performance of both aircrafts is way to different, only the same numbers are nearly the same. I think nobody expects 250 JF17 would counter 250 F15 or?
And not only JF will improve further, here are latest news of MKI upgrade:

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine


ANTIBODY said:


> With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.
> 
> ==> Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.


At this point this is wishful thinking, cause too less is known about J10B capabilities (radar, EWS, t/w ratio). I highly doubt that J10B can match Rafale, or EF because of better t/w ratio and even F18SH in BVR combats with it's AESA and AMRAAM missiles will be a big problem, so will upg MKI be. Gripen NG and F16 block 60 will be a better comparison for J10.


ANTIBODY said:


> so if equal avionic capability is obtained in self produced jf17 as compared to j10b.... in half the price, then thats great...just add them to an air-refueller.


It's not about more fuel that makes J10 better than JF 17, but it is more maneuverable with canards, highter thrust engine, maybe even 3D TVC. So even if it would get the same avionics, the design alone makes a big difference.


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## SBD-3

With J-10B already in the skies as a reality.Why PAF is waiting so long 2015? IMHO it is waiting for IAF MRCA result while stressing for futher upgrades (probably for WS-13 or WS-10A and AESA) PAF could also think about acquiring J-11Bs in unusual situations rather than MCRA contenders due to the fact that their abilities will be known to IAF due to testing them
@Arsalan
lolz dont worry bro I am A Okey


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## Munir

If the numbers are raised i does not matter which plane you fly... Sancho. Basic rule.


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## Gucci Juice

ANTIBODY said:


> The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s.
> 
> ==>The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair - one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter.
> 
> ==>Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it.
> 
> ==>Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it.
> 
> ==> Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.
> 
> With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.
> 
> ==> Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.
> 
> 
> While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.
> 
> 
> The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.
> 
> The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19930-paf-shouldve-invested-more-j-10s-7.html



are u stupid or something? j-10B superior than the mki, mig-35, rafael, and sh? and comparable to the ef typhoon? have u done any research at all?

lets do ef vs j-10 in performance

j-10 21000 lb empty with 130 kn thrust
ef 24000 lb empty with 180 kn thrust

that already tells u which is superior

mki 40000 lb empty with 262 kn thrust (which according to reports could go to as high as 300+kn thrust after upgrade)

rafael 20,000 lb empty with 150 kn thrust

f-16 20000 lb empty with 144 kn thrust

sh 30,000 lb empty with 196 kn thrust

mig-35 33,000 lb empty with 176 kn thrust

the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics and it sure as hell cant compare with ANY mrca fighter in terms of electronics, radar, ew systems, and avionics.

and by the time j-10 arrives mki is due for an upgrade with aesa, 3d tvc, supercruise, and "smart skin" as i'm told but these are just rumors just like rumors about j-10 having aesa, tvc, etc...


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## dave

Onemore time where the money come from all these ac. I think the people talk like piece of cake. China develop the programe and make AC and give pakistan. I don't think pakistan can serwive. How many time brother can help you people of china pay the tax too. It's my thought. Otherwise fourm is open for more discussion.


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## Arsalan

i guess we will answer it when the QUESTION will be asked by the MRCA, and dude tell you what, we are going to answer them the hard way!


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## dave

Life is full of choice but you have to make right choice on right time. All this expence is possibel but ISI have to make more bin laden and world give you money like last eight years. Sidhi ungly se ghee na nikle to ungly tedi karo ghee jaroo nikle ga. just my thought may be my tax money go to pakistan


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## Manticore

Gucci Juice said:


> *are u stupid or something?* j-10B superior than the mki, mig-35, rafael, and sh? and comparable to the ef typhoon? have u done any research at all?
> 
> lets do ef vs j-10 in performance
> 
> j-10 21000 lb empty with 130 kn thrust
> ef 24000 lb empty with 180 kn thrust
> 
> that already tells u which is superior
> 
> mki 40000 lb empty with 262 kn thrust (which according to reports could go to as high as 300+kn thrust after upgrade)
> 
> rafael 20,000 lb empty with 150 kn thrust
> 
> f-16 20000 lb empty with 144 kn thrust
> 
> sh 30,000 lb empty with 196 kn thrust
> 
> mig-35 33,000 lb empty with 176 kn thrust
> 
> the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics and it sure as hell cant compare with ANY mrca fighter in terms of electronics, radar, ew systems, and avionics.
> 
> and by the time j-10 arrives mki is due for an upgrade with aesa, 3d tvc, supercruise, and "smart skin" as i'm told but these are just rumors just like rumors about j-10 having aesa, tvc, etc...



firstly
* mods please look at the comments i highlighted.thanks *

secondly
the report from where i quoeted and gave the link says

''*With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, *PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.''
i think g.juice forgot to read this.

thirdly this topic from where i quoted is written by the mods and military proffessionals of this forum... dont call them stupid.. this makes u look stupid

fourthly
''the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics ''
read the report carefully,thats what the report was saying anyway...

... because of the introduction of bvrs, the war tactics have gont towards swept wings from dogfighting

fifthly,
all u did was to try to posts thrusts of different engines. dude do u actually know anything about the chinese engines? not even in a blue moon

sixthly
last time i checked, iaf hasent placed any orders, only the specs u required... this has helped paf in catching up and instead of j10a, we are going for j10b with better avionics and engine package.... thanks

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## SBD-3

dave said:


> Onemore time where the money come from all these ac. I think the people talk like piece of cake. China develop the programe and make AC and give pakistan. I don't think pakistan can serwive. How many time brother can help you people of china pay the tax too. It's my thought. Otherwise fourm is open for more discussion.



Um well a simple answer to this might be that.Whether China is selling these ACs free or on discounted bases ok as we know that JF-17 is a joint venture so whatever is the earning its gonna be shared and PAF did contribute development cost. If the matter what you are talking about is considered as right then there should be no TOT in the world if China sells ToT to Pakistan it helps china coverning their developmental cost. I mean how many J-10s can china induct? 300 400 500? there is always a limit so what they have incured on R&D they can recover a part of that from Pakistan and like wise other countries as i see it, it is Pakistani Tax Payers coming for the benefit of chinese tax payers
ok lets talk about the real burden on the Tax payers two examples LCA and Arjun.These projects are decades old now and the cost contributed to these projects came out of where? Indian peoples pockets. Lets assume that the cost rises significantly and IAF goes for MCRA rather than LCA and IA goes for Russian Tanks (i think) which it already has done who will be held accountable for this loss and LCA not for export all the burden will be shared by Indian Tax Payers


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## Arsalan

ANTIBODY said:


> firstly
> * mods please look at the comments i highlighted.thanks *
> 
> secondly
> the report from where i quoeted and gave the link says
> 
> ''*With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, *PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.''
> i think g.juice forgot to read this.
> 
> thirdly this topic from where i quoted is written by the mods and military proffessionals of this forum... dont call them stupid.. this makes u look stupid
> 
> fourthly
> ''the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics ''
> read the report carefully,thats what the report was saying anyway...
> 
> ... because of the introduction of bvrs, the war tactics have gont towards swept wings from dogfighting
> 
> fifthly,
> all u did was to try to posts thrusts of different engines. dude do u actually know anything about the chinese engines? not even in a blue moon
> 
> sixthly
> last time i checked, iaf hasent placed any orders, only the specs u required... this has helped paf in catching up and instead of j10a, we are going for j10b with better avionics and engine package.... thanks



that was perhaps a perfect answer answer for such a rubbish post! well done brother, i hope the mods will take good care of such events!
thanks,,

regards!

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## Gucci Juice

ANTIBODY said:


> firstly
> * mods please look at the comments i highlighted.thanks *
> 
> secondly
> the report from where i quoeted and gave the link says
> 
> ''*With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, *PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India.''
> i think g.juice forgot to read this.
> 
> thirdly this topic from where i quoted is written by the mods and military proffessionals of this forum... dont call them stupid.. this makes u look stupid
> 
> fourthly
> ''the j-10 isn't even comparable to the f-16 in aerodynamics ''
> read the report carefully,thats what the report was saying anyway...
> 
> ... because of the introduction of bvrs, the war tactics have gont towards swept wings from dogfighting
> 
> fifthly,
> all u did was to try to posts thrusts of different engines. dude do u actually know anything about the chinese engines? not even in a blue moon
> 
> sixthly
> last time i checked, iaf hasent placed any orders, only the specs u required... this has helped paf in catching up and instead of j10a, we are going for j10b with better avionics and engine package.... thanks



i dont think so... the aesa, avionics, and higher thrust engines aren't cheap and would raise the price of the j-10 to 50-60 million a piece considering it costs 41 million today. and since china's aesa is quite new and there aren't economies of scale it should be at least 5 million a piece, and non-chinese avionics aren't cheap either look at the mirage 2000 upgrade 20 million a piece.

also noone knows real specs of j-10.

and i think its been confirmed by a magazine that the mki will get aesa, 3d tvc, supercruise, smart skin, and new avionics.

evidence for this?

2 mki's sent to irkut to be strengthened to fire brahmos, they'll arrive back in 2011, does it really take 2 years to strengthen a frame? something must be up.


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## SBD-3

Gucci Juice said:


> and i think its been confirmed by a magazine that the mki will get aesa, 3d tvc, supercruise, smart skin, and new avionics.
> 
> evidence for this?
> 
> 2 mki's sent to irkut to be strengthened to fire brahmos, they'll arrive back in 2011, does it really take 2 years to strengthen a frame? something must be up.



if you would have red wiki it was stated over there that Brahmos arming project was taking difficulties due to enormus weight of this missile and MKIs would also be there for upgrades package testing prior to induction in MKI fleet???


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## zavis2003

WHICH fighter WOULD FIRE babar


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## SBD-3

zavis2003 said:


> c130 WOULD FIRE BABUR;-)



We have Ra'ad why do we need Babur???


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> We have Ra'ad why do we need Babur???



perhaps he means to say RAAD as most of the people take RAAD as the airlaunched Babur missile!

regards!


----------



## Super Falcon

i think pakistan should buy state of the art SAM system to counter Indians it is not expansive and easy to maintain and most feariest war machine against fighter jets S-300.S-400 or patriotic missile system


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## hj786

Gucci Juice said:


> i dont think so... the aesa, avionics, and higher thrust engines aren't cheap and would raise the price of the j-10 to 50-60 million a piece considering it costs 41 million today. and since china's aesa is quite new and there aren't economies of scale it should be at least 5 million a piece, and non-chinese avionics aren't cheap either look at the mirage 2000 upgrade 20 million a piece.
> 
> also noone knows real specs of j-10.



WTF? How do you expect anybody to take you seriously if you keep telling us the exact price of the latest Chinese equipment while admitting nobody knows anything about their specifications?  Then you compare the cost of a Chinese aeroplane to the cost of a French aeroplane.

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## Arsalan

hj786 said:


> WTF? How do you expect anybody to take you seriously if you keep telling us the exact price of the latest Chinese equipment while admitting nobody knows anything about their specifications?  Then you compare the cost of a Chinese aeroplane to the cost of a French aeroplane.




LoLz! that was intresting!
perhaps someone from the chines defence industry can get some help from these comparisons to improve there projets and the resulting equipments!

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

hj786 said:


> WTF? How do you expect anybody to take you seriously if you keep telling us the exact price of the latest Chinese equipment while admitting nobody knows anything about their specifications?  Then you compare the cost of a Chinese aeroplane to the cost of a French aeroplane.



but with the more sophisticated avionics the price tag should go up an AESA and avionics add up to cost, the more sophisticated AVios the higher the price tag even though I dont think it would go into 60s but preety much chance of landing into early to mid 50s


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## Super Falcon

no reply still on me


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## mean_bird

Super Falcon said:


> i think pakistan should buy state of the art SAM system to counter Indians it is not expansive and easy to maintain and most feariest war machine against fighter jets S-300.S-400 or patriotic missile system




What makes you think they won't? 

The chinese HQ-9 (FD-2000) still lacks the range of S-300 PMU2 but is at par or greater then the PMU1 according to some sources. Its already available for export so the possibility of us buying it or an enhanced version of it is good.


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## SBD-3

mean_bird said:


> What makes you think they won't?
> 
> The chinese HQ-9 (FD-2000) still lacks the range of S-300 PMU2 but is at par or greater then the PMU1 according to some sources. Its already available for export so the possibility of us buying it or an enhanced version of it is good.



is it something different from FT-2000????


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> is it something different from FT-2000????



i take it to be a case of miss typing and actually he meant the FT2000!

regards!


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## mean_bird

hasnain0099 said:


> is it something different from FT-2000????



yes

FD-2000 is the export name of the chinese HQ-9. The FT-2000 is a different missile though believed to be closely related to the HQ-9.

The FT-2000 has a broadband passive radar target seeker (passive homing) that can detect the electromagnetic emanations from the adversary early warning and electronic jamming planes and shoot them down by tracing signals. This makes it more "stealthy" since it doesn't emit signals of its own and hence difficult to detect. he FT-2000 has a maximum range of 12-100 kilometers, a firing altitude of 3-20 kilometers, a missile length of 6.8 meters and a diameter of 466 millimeters. Its also sometimes called the "AWACS killer". 


The FD-2000, on the other hand is simply the export name of the HQ-9. HQ-9 is designed to be a long-range SAM to counter high-performance aircraft, cruise missiles, air-to-surface missiles (ASMs), and tactical ballistic missiles (TBMs). The missiles range for aircraft targets is 7-125 kilometers, its firing altitude is 0.025-27 kilometers. Range for other targets vary. The HQ-9s guidance system is composed of inertia plus uplink and active radar terminal guidance systems and has a claimed response time of 15 seconds and is capable of dealing with 48 targets simultaneously. 


Hope that clears it up.

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## SBD-3

mean_bird said:


> Hope that clears it up.



I wish JF and FC-20 would have something like Zvezda Kh-31 (AS-17 Krypton)


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> yes
> 
> FD-2000 is the export name of the chinese HQ-9. The FT-2000 is a different missile though believed to be closely related to the HQ-9.
> 
> The FT-2000 has a broadband passive radar target seeker (passive homing) that can detect the electromagnetic emanations from the adversary early warning and electronic jamming planes and shoot them down by tracing signals. This makes it more "stealthy" since it doesn't emit signals of its own and hence difficult to detect. he FT-2000 has a maximum range of 12-100 kilometers, a firing altitude of 3-20 kilometers, a missile length of 6.8 meters and a diameter of 466 millimeters. Its also sometimes called the "AWACS killer".
> 
> 
> The FD-2000, on the other hand is simply the export name of the HQ-9. HQ-9 is designed to be a long-range SAM to counter high-performance aircraft, cruise missiles, air-to-surface missiles (ASMs), and tactical ballistic missiles (TBMs). The missiles range for aircraft targets is 7-125 kilometers, its firing altitude is 0.025-27 kilometers. Range for other targets vary. The HQ-9s guidance system is composed of inertia plus uplink and active radar terminal guidance systems and has a claimed response time of 15 seconds and is capable of dealing with 48 targets simultaneously.
> 
> 
> Hope that clears it up.



hmmm. that clears it!
thankyou!

the FT2000 is also sadi to be developed from the HQ9 and S300 and i supposed a lethal weapon!

anyway, thanks again!

regards!


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## owais.usmani

*PAF officials with the Rafale in France*


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## Arsalan

can it be a part of lucrative deal on offer form france, including assistance for JF, submarines, BVRAAMs and rafale,,,,
well for me, it might not be the case as it is too expensive and also we are not in a position to start a new fighter plane venture wiht PAF busy with JF17, F16 ans FC20! also not forget the highly complex AWE&Cz

regards!


----------



## jalip

arsalanaslam123 said:


> can it be a part of lucrative deal on offer form france, including assistance for JF, submarines, BVRAAMs and rafale,,,,
> well for me, it might not be the case as it is too expensive and also we are not in a position to start a new fighter plane venture wiht PAF busy with JF17, F16 ans FC20! also not forget the highly complex AWE&Cz
> 
> regards!


 can be lucrative if Submarine( scorpion or Merlin are not included) they can upgrade our Agosta 70 and we Aslo have plan for building more Agosta 90 in near future that can give them lot of money Rafale will be only western option if US back from F 16


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## Arsalan

yes, infact there is a repoet about the U214 deal being finalized. so i guess if PAF can manage with finance issues it wont be a bad buy at all.
but another important point of concern is that can PAF really manage to support almost four new platform simlutaneously, i do not think so!!

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes, infact there is a repoet about the U214 deal being finalized. so i guess if PAF can manage with finance issues it wont be a bad buy at all.
> but another important point of concern is that can PAF really manage to support almost four new platform simlutaneously, i do not think so!!
> 
> regards!



I don't think PAF is going to get any European fighter. they are all prone to sanctions like F-16 and once these sanctions are in place getting spares can proved to be a nightmare. Mirages III and V was another story as many country were using them so Pakistan managed to get spare despite the fact French stopped manufacturing of those models.

Apart from this, Look at desired number of JF-17s PAF wants. 250 is initial figure and can go up and will go up. It makes a lot of sense to have a medium to high tech main stay multi role and bring in more hi-tech planes (F-16M, FC-20) along with it for specialized role. This will decrease logistical, training, support, issues and will increase over all PAF responsiveness in war.

So, No new Eurpoean fighter even if F-16 comes under sanctions (Which is cannot write off as US and Indian media once again on a propaganda mission against Pakistan by stories of alleged modification of Harpoons by violating End User Agreement).

Future lies with FC-20 and JF-17 in long term with open architecture and modifications at regular basis.

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## Arsalan

i also have never been a supporter of Rafale procurement, this is not just the financila part of the deal but also some technical aspects that i have discussed in previous two posts, i hope you understand those!!
however as far as the deal being sacntion prones is cconcerned then it is not a real trouble part with france,,
but yes the future lies in JF but we will have to wait for atleast blkIII to surface before we can bet all our money on JF17,,

regards!


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## maverick2009

Rafale is the most advanced Multi role Fighter in the World after JSF & F22. 

a HEAD OF the Russian SU35.MKI and the USA teen series. 

Any Air Force wud welcome this beast... 

It wud take PAF to another level from F16 block52


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## PakShaheen79

maverick2009 said:


> Rafale is the most advanced Multi role Fighter in the World after JSF & F22.
> 
> a HEAD OF the Russian SU35.MKI and the USA teen series.
> 
> Any Air Force wud welcome this beast...
> 
> It wud take PAF to another level from F16 block52



And you basis of the claim are......?


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> And you basis of the claim are......?



well there is absolutely no doub that Rafale is a real beast!!
it is a true $.5 generation plane, electronie stealth suite (SPECTRA) pilot friendly interface and latest avionics, one of the best missiles AESA radars soon to replace the aleady existing good radar,,,
all in all rafale is real a fighter plane of the highest league,,
only disadvantage being that F16s are battle tested but rafale is not fully matured as yet. moreover it is also almost twice as expensive then the F16z!!

regards!


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## duhastmish

no arsalanaslam - its infect almost same price - if you compare - f-16 block-70 and Rafael . 

Rafael is infect best suited fighter - and with a good price tag - since its a European fighter.


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## Arsalan

well i was talking about the versions of F16 in existence. i dont see a point in comparing rafale with a plane no where to be found!!
if blk 70 costs the same, it may also be giving superior features, they are not know as yet so for comparison let us keep it to blk 52 or at most to blk 60z!!

regards!


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## duhastmish

yeh well even blk-60 They cost around $80 million each. so not a big diffrence they cost almost the same.


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## Patriot

Technically, F16 Bloc60 is superior in terms in electronics but Rafale is getting the upgrades and will completely dominate the F16..F16 Block60 is not as agile as earlier blocks due to heavy weight while rafale is double engine powered so more power and better agility.It is more in F15 category..let's just hope it is not selected for MRCA..Honestly Rafale and Eurofighter are far bigger threats then F16 or F18.


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## duhastmish

i totally second that - new f16-in is too heavy and bulky . and more over pakistan know f-16 in and out. 

i dont think india will go for it . in an ideal scenario mrca will be -Rafale or eurofighter. with new aesa.


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## Arsalan

but there are rumores about SH being the strongest candidate,,
it is amazing that how easily indinas have kicked the russian options out of discussion, i never herad anyhing about those,,
i mean do they really are of the view thatrussian arm are no good for them anymore, atleast the planes are not!!

regards!


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## duhastmish

arsalanaslam123 said:


> but there are rumores about SH being the strongest candidate,,
> it is amazing that how easily indinas have kicked the russian options out of discussion, i never herad anyhing about those,,
> i mean do they really are of the view thatrussian arm are no good for them anymore, atleast the planes are not!!
> 
> regards!



No brother 

actually its oppsite we have too many russian fighter deals .
like su-30 , fgfa and many other defense deal - we would like to have the best of other world too.


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## hj786

owais.usmani said:


> *PAF officials with the Rafale in France*



According to a respected poster, this picture was taken in March 2007 during evaluations of Rafale by the PAF, who then went on to choose FC-20. They also evaluated Gripen and Typhoon and of the 3 European fighters, Gripen came closest to their requirements.

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## owais.usmani

hj786 said:


> Nope, PAF chose F-16 blk 52 (and FC-20) over any European fighter. *The PAF evaluated Rafale in March 2007*, as well as Typhoon and Gripen, and they found Gripen to meet their requirements best according to senior posters with inside contacts.


Exactly. Sorry I forgot to mention, the following picture was* actually taken in March 2007*


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## Arsalan

so that sums up the debate,,

regards!


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## Hunter911

Muradk said:


> Sohail: Your data on F-15's is wrong , 100 kills and no defeat, 1991 Desert Shield 4 F-15 were shot down, and one of them was a Birg Gen. General Horner was commanding and his deputy decided to do couple of missions and he got shot down.
> And I would'nt worry about the IAF getting F-18s, Dude they can hardly fly Hawks



They just like the SU-27 that which is a drag in fact. Many countries can buy them, but they often too poor to feed .


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## PakShaheen79

duhastmish said:


> yeh well even blk-60 They cost around $80 million each. so not a big diffrence they cost almost the same.



Lol that means they are cheper than PAF's F-16M which are going to cost some 83.3 million each


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well there is absolutely no doub that Rafale is a real beast!!
> it is a true $.5 generation plane, electronie stealth suite (SPECTRA) pilot friendly interface and latest avionics, one of the best missiles AESA radars soon to replace the aleady existing good radar,,,
> all in all rafale is real a fighter plane of the highest league,,
> only disadvantage being that F16s are battle tested but rafale is not fully matured as yet. moreover it is also almost twice as expensive then the F16z!!
> 
> regards!



Dear that is true but again PAF did evaluate it and secondly i don't think French would offer kind of ToT PAF wanted at price which PAF can effort.


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## maverick2009

proof just how good the rafael is 

Interesting comments on Rafale from Dutch competition

don,t be shocked if the IAF indeed piks the Rafale afterall they love their Mirage2000H planes


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## PakShaheen79

Good or bad thing is PAF is not interested in it so mean it does not fir well in our scenario viz-a-viz IAF.


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## Comet

PakShaheen79 said:


> Dear that is true but again PAF did evaluate it and secondly i don't think French would offer kind of ToT PAF wanted at price which PAF can effort.



Talking about ToT. I think PAF said itself that it not ready for ToT when talks for Grippen were going on.


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## AJSINGH

sohailbutt said:


> REPLY TO JEFF.
> 
> Regardin ur 1st point it is quite clear to for me n u to understand wut IAF is goin to go for, i think ive clearly mentioned in the first post, read it again to clarify urself, i clearly meant SH it can be seen clearly.
> 
> Coming on to ur 2nd point, yes spares can be developed but in quantities mentioned by Boeing u jus cannot make spares in unlimited quantites n use them, there r always limits to the amounts of spares that u can make.
> 
> Reply to ur 3rd point, I'm sorry US aircraft aint like none other, u know this, Russian is full of old tech, n even European manfacturers lack behind US, because US is the trend setter!!!, has anyone come up with a 5th generation aircraft, even Russians r still in the designin phase of their 5th generation aircraft as far as Europeans are concerned dont know when they r goin to bring their 5th generation out possibly when US has already manufactured its 6th generation fighter!!!!
> 
> Reply to ur 4th point, jus tell me wut is the use of spendin $15 Billion to buy Sh when boeing has already stated that they r goin to take this SH into a 5th generation aircraft in the comin few years, by the time u get the technology after 2012, we would be lookin into 5th Generation fighters like F35's which I'm pretty sure PAF will go for cause our Turkish brothers have already commited themselves to a 100 F-35's. U can use this $15 billion big ticket purchase n improve ur failed Tejas fighter n Arjuns, that way u will get self reliance n u will not fill beoing's pockets who will simply make more advanced version of SH a 5th generation one.
> 
> Reply to ur 5th point, there was a guy who went to a pharmacy n he asked for a medicine, the guy said him only 1 packet of the medicine he was annoyed he increased his purchase from 1 packet to 20 packs at the same moment, it's not abut spending money but u have ur pockets full of cash at this time, u shuld spend money in the quatities u need to, jus don't close ur eyes n distribute money to lockheed or anyone else, wut is the use of buyin C-130's when u r makin ur own transport aircraft???? *it is not how hard PAK hits India it is how good THEY hit them when they are in a fight with them *that's why we survived 60 years of Independance with extremist always keepin an evil eye on our Country n willin to strike us anytime they get a chance.
> 
> Reply to ur 6th point, Indians need to learn not to teach US lessons as they r doin now, u think u r smart at sayin wut u said to US, US is a real ***** n it will kick India's *** when it needs to jus wait n see, can't u see wut it did to Russia, learn some lessons from history, US cannot see some one comin near to it's level so it eliminates that country if ur's try to do that which im pretty sure u will then ur country will learn a hard lesson next after Russia.
> 
> Reply to ur 7th point, hello wake up, *they gave a green signal for the export of AESA not TOT AESA they wuld never give this tech to anyone, by the way can u provide me with a source that they have allowed indians to manufacture AESA in their country*. U talk abut economical prosperous countru wut was ur dear friend Russia when it was broken by Bin Laden into pieces, it was a super power, so jus don't sink in this scenario that if u have a strong economy US will not keep an evil eye on u. US strategy is they will dry all the water from the river, then when u have no choice left to drink from u will beg for the water US has, get my point. Goin the US way, Russia will not be happy!!!!
> 
> Reply to ur 8th, 9th n 10th points, please clearly specify wut u mean by ur 8th point, I think india shuld learn lesson that not only PAF's F-16 spares were banned but even Turkey's F-16's spares were banned as one of the forum members mentioned it earlier, so get my point US doesn't give $hit as to who anyone is they will ban spares when they need to. Jus wonderin how will India have good experience in dealin with black markets, it has no need to, don't u think.
> 
> Reply to ur 11th n 12th point, o really old myth that India will not go for extra 74 when their squadrons strength has dramatically fallen, how will u bring ur sqaudron strength bak to normal, by buyin more jets u jus can't bring in ur Tejas to fill the gap cause even it is no where near ready after Billions in R & D. U talk abut budget PAK budget is like a glacier u can only see $4.5 billion at the top but they spend more than this, one of the members stated in his post that PAK has already crossed it allocated budget, so do u think our budget is wut we say to the world, NO!!!!! jus dont think we cant afford Patriot's, if PAF thinks it needs them they will get them no matter wut!!!! n we r not unbalancin the the balance of power in the region it is u who r doin that!!!!! wut we do is just a reply to wut u do!!!!!
> 
> Reply to ur 13th, 14th n 15th points, PAF has always operated lower number of jets to ur 750 we operate 450 approximately so IF we buy 3 squadrons i think its fine because we have our JF-17 comin up with Western goodies on it so we don't need to purchase expensive aircraft we will build the aircraft at home n buy weapons from abroad. PAF already operates a 2 engine fighter as i said IF they feel the need of goin this way they will no matter wut!!!!! Thank's for wishin me best of luck for my exams, it's my second year finals




i would like to answer to your russian combat aircraft being inferior than the american ....well for first if u must know the reason why USA started its ATA project ( advance tactical aircraft ) was because they found that the soviet russian combat aircraft such Mig 29 and Su-27 legacy fighter were better than the F-15 f-16 f-18...( On 26 November 1995, the first of two Su-27s was delivered to the USA inside an An-124 for an unknown purpose, believed to be support of military training exercises) .....also those migand su had better avionics radar as well as fire control radar ...when Mig 29 came out in 1982 it had IRST ball and fly by wire technology which came out later in F-16 and F-18 ...also Soviet russia developed fifth generation aircraft before the US ....know as Su47 and Mig Mpfi .....u can google them if u want ...the reason why they were not able to finish the Fifth generation project was because of soviet union dissoloution ..where the funding was stopped....if the funding was not stopped u would have seen the finished version in MMRCA competition for india ...also u should know that the prototype for PAK FAGA ...will be complete this year and it will fly by mid of next year .....also russian did rely on the idea of reducing the RCS of the aircraft as stealth because they knew that those aircraft with reduced RCS were vulnerable to their sam system ..that why u see serbs were able to shoot down F-117 with old soviet sam system ....russians are now developng plasma stealth which is much more effective than the american stealth technology...btw we have enough money to fund LCA and Tejas ...it is not like we are diverting our funds to accquire forgen technology ...Tejas is almost complete ...we need to perfect the engine ....also Arjun has the same problem that it needs better engine ...which will be completed in due time....why are we acquring c-130 is because we need it now ...and for the joint development of transport if for long term requirment .....also Mig 35 is very likely to win MMRCA not SH ....


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## AJSINGH

hasnain0099 said:


> if you would have red wiki it was stated over there that Brahmos arming project was taking difficulties due to enormus weight of this missile and MKIs would also be there for upgrades package testing prior to induction in MKI fleet???



they are reducing the weight of brahmos to around 2 tons and samaller size ...alspo hwy two years for fitting brahmos is because they have to extensive test ...like multiple fire test ...avionis...does the radar and fire system is compatible with brahmos


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## Zarbe Momin

There are two question! 
1- What could be PAF's possible answer to MRCA?
Ans: Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen, F-16 Block 60 and FC-20
2- What shuld be PAF's possible answer to MRCA?
Ans: FC-20 with ASEA. Because, Firstly, it has nearly half price than Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen, F-16 Block 60, in price of one westren fighter we can buy two FC-20. Secondly no sanctions, no westen give and take deal system and most importantly a deal with friend is better than with bunch of foes.


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## Arsalan

my friend in answer to the first question you have quoted all the names of MRCA candidates,,, except for FC20 which you rightly said is the better choice for PAF in current conditions!!

regards!


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## maverick2009

I think we have the ANSWER chinease built FC20 with an AESA. 

Better 1 FC20 which is ready for WAR 24/7 THANKS to ally China rather then 2 F16/60 which can,t fight for lack of spares & sanctions.


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## SBD-3

maverick2009 said:


> I think we have the ANSWER chinease built FC20 with an AESA.
> 
> Better 1 FC20 which is ready for WAR 24/7 THANKS to ally China rather then 2 F16/60 which can,t fight for lack of spares & sanctions.



But one thing AESA significantly increases the weight of the AC so we would need a more powerful variant of the WS-10A to keep the agility in tact might be WS-15 but its still under development


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## Arsalan

if the plane is being designed with AESA radar such points would surely kept in mind!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> if the plane is being designed with AESA radar such points would surely kept in mind!
> 
> regards!



Bro all modern fighters are designed keeping Open Architecture. Even JF-17 Thunders have open architecture that was the reason DSI was incorporated easily and now PAF is looking for an AESA and other EW suits.


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## hj786

PakShaheen79 said:


> Bro all modern fighters are designed keeping Open Architecture. Even JF-17 Thunders have open architecture that was the reason DSI was incorporated easily and now PAF is looking for an AESA and other EW suits.



The term "open architecture" refers to computer software. How do you know DSI was incorporated easily? There is an article by two PAF Wing Commanders saying DSI was being researched since 1999. 
I agree the PAF is looking for an AESA, the question is will they wait for a Chinese one or go Western.


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## PAFAce

hj786 said:


> The term "open architecture" refers to computer software. How do you know DSI was incorporated easily? There is an article by two PAF Wing Commanders saying DSI was being researched since 1999.
> I agree the PAF is looking for an AESA, the question is will they wait for a Chinese one or go Western.


The Chinese had been researching DSI technology for almost a decade before the first JF-17 prototype was rolled out in 2003, according to Western experts. They may have decided to incorporate it onto the JF-17 in 1999.

Also, the term "open architecture" is used mainly for open-ended electronics and/or software, as you said, but it could technically be used for anything that is designed to be easily modified, upgraded or swapped on the fly. Airframe design is never really "open architecture". As far as the avionics go, it most definitely would be open-ended to allow for easy modifications in the future.

It's hard to answer your last question. We don't know the status of a Chinese AESA, or even its capabilities, whereas the French option is always available if we're willing to pay through our noses. Once we have more info re the Chinese AESA, your question will be answered more easily.

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## PakShaheen79

hj786 said:


> The term "open architecture" refers to computer software. How do you know DSI was incorporated easily? There is an article by two PAF Wing Commanders saying DSI was being researched since 1999.
> I agree the PAF is looking for an AESA, the question is will they wait for a Chinese one or go Western.



Thanks for reply. Indeed term is associated with internal modification but what made you think that DSI would had not impact flight control system of THUNDER. I was talking about integrating DSI with Thunder not research on itself as a control surface.

AESA, well surely as Ex-PAF chief also said one of his interviews.But can't tell which one and when. Let's wait and see.


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## Hunter911

Indians SM-36 STALMA is the sixth-generation fighter?

It looks like a wild beast,will it bite ?


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## Haanzo

Hunter911 said:


> Indians SM-36 STALMA is the sixth-generation fighter?
> 
> It looks like a wild beast,will it bite ?



right now its just pure GAS


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## IceCold

hj786 said:


> According to a respected poster, this picture was taken in March 2007 during evaluations of Rafale by the PAF, who then went on to choose FC-20. They also evaluated Gripen and Typhoon and of the 3 European fighters, Gripen came closest to their requirements.



Was the rejection based because of the price tag or was it based purely on technical grounds?
My own opinion is that much has to do with the price tag and also soft loans that we can get things(JF-17,F-22p,J-10) on from China which other wise would not be possible.


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## wild peace

Guys after the very hard talk every one want refreshment.

A son is playing with his Mother.
Mother Said.. Mera baata bara hoo ka kia bana gha
Son.... Pilot Banoo Gha..Jhaz orahune Gha..
Mother...... Muja kaisa pata challa gha is main mara bata ha.
Son.... Ghub bhee ouper saa guzroo gha too bomb phangoo gha.

Chill.................................


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## hj786

PAFAce said:


> The Chinese had been researching DSI technology for almost a decade before the first JF-17 prototype was rolled out in 2003, according to Western experts. They may have decided to incorporate it onto the JF-17 in 1999.



Do you have a link to that article? I'd appreciate it if you can post it here.



IceCold said:


> Was the rejection based because of the price tag or was it based purely on technical grounds?
> My own opinion is that much has to do with the price tag and also soft loans that we can get things(JF-17,F-22p,J-10) on from China which other wise would not be possible.


Link to the thread: http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?p=159955#post159955
It wasn't just price tag, lots of reasons.


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## Myth_buster_1

hj786 said:


> According to a respected poster, this picture was taken in March 2007 during evaluations of Rafale by the PAF, who then went on to choose FC-20. They also evaluated Gripen and Typhoon and of the 3 European fighters, Gripen came closest to their requirements.



IMO "requirement" is not the word more like the word "funds" to describe PAF situation, though would love to see a dedicated Rafale naval squadron.


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## hj786

Growler said:


> IMO "requirement" is not the word more like the word "funds" to describe PAF situation, though would love to see a dedicated Rafale naval squadron.



I reckon even if they had plenty of funds they'd still have gone for J-10 and JF-17 in a high low mix, except both would enter service in far more expensive configurations. Funds can't stop sanctions, that was proved in the 80s/90s when the PAF ordered 70 more F-16s. Having said that, if funding wasn't an issue in the 90s they'd probably have a fleet of Mirage 2000. Good job they didn't, J-10 looks to be much better.


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## Myth_buster_1

hj786 said:


> I reckon even if they had plenty of funds they'd still have gone for J-10 and JF-17 in a high low mix, except both would enter service in far more expensive configurations. Funds can't stop sanctions, that was proved in the 80s/90s when the PAF ordered 70 more F-16s. Having said that, if funding wasn't an issue in the 90s they'd probably have a fleet of Mirage 2000. Good job they didn't, J-10 looks to be much better.



Sorry bro i beg to differ. Fc-20 is not that much of a improvement that it deserves to be called high tech when Jf-17 is associated with low tech. We do not even know Fc-20's configuration and it would have been much better for PAF if FC-20 would have been inducted in same time frame as MKI and both would be a good match. 
PAF is not repeating same old mistake of 90s. In fact PAF has ordered surplus amount of spares and not paying a single penny before these things are in their hands. 
FC-20 could turn out to be a good MRCA but a big negative tag it carries is the fact that it will be almost a decade behind!


----------



## Super Falcon

Bangalore: Three F-16 advanced fighters of US aerospace major Lockheed Martin will soar into the skies Monday for the flight evaluation trials (FET) of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) the Indian Air Force (IAF) is seeking to replace its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 fleet.

"We are flying in three F-16s from Dubai to Bangalore Aug 31 for the month-long field trials. The fourth-generation advanced fighters are currently with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) Air Force. They will be flown by our test pilots along with US Air Force pilots," a senior Lockheed Martin official told.

In the run-up to the trials, to be conducted in Bangalore, near Jaisalmer in Rajasthan desert and in high-altitude Leh in September, Lockheed Martin has flown-in an advance team, including a logistics group, for ground preparations.

"The F-16s, with fifth generation capabilities, will demonstrate to the IAF their strike power, speed, accuracy and its awesome 360-degree maneouvers, with its sophisticated active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar," Lockheed Martin director Michael R. Griswold said.

If Lockheed Martin bags the lucrative order, estimated to be about $10 billion at current prices for 126 aircraft, it will manufacture an Indian version, christened F-16IN Super Viper that will carry about 8,000kg of conventional weapons or nuclear warheads.

The other five aircraft in the fray for the order are Boeing's F/A-181N Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the Saab Gripen, the Russian MiG-35 and the European consortium EADS Eurofighter Typhoon.

As per the global tender floated last year, the winning bidder will have to deliver 18 aircraft in fly-away condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under a technology transfer deal.

Though the tender is for 126 aircraft, there is an option for an additional 50 percent, or 63 more aircraft.

The F-16 trials will take place a fortnight after Boeing flew in its two Super Hornets Aug 14 and conducted trials for about 10 days from Aug 17 in Bangalore before taking-off to Jaisalmer and Leh for a series of trials in hot and cold weather conditions.

During the second round of field trials, senior IAF test pilots will join Lockheed Martin test pilots to fly the tandem-seater fighters for a firsthand feel of its capabilities and technologies, especially its electronic warfare abilities.

"Initially, the IAF pilots will co-pilot the aircraft, taking controls mid-air after familiarising themselves with the systems and the advanced navigation aids. In the subsequent trials, the IAF pilots will take command of the aircraft for evaluating its various parameters, including use of weapons," a Lockheed Martin official said but declined to be named.

The IAF has formed two teams of two test pilots each for the flight trials, which will be conducted in three stages: pilot familiarisation, field trials and weapons systems trials. The third stage will be conducted in the country of manufacture.

The technical evaluation was completed early this year after the six manufacturers responded to the IAF's Request for Proposal (RFP) in August 2007. "All the trials are on a no-cost-no-commitment basis. The IAF will buy only the aircraft that meets all the parameters in terms of capabilities and cost," a defence analyst told


----------



## Super Falcon

Boeing has decided to bid on Indias programs to purchase 22 combat helicopters and 15 heavy-lift helicopters.Proposals for the combat helicopters are due Sept. 22, and the deadline for the heavy-lift helicopters is the next day.

This is the second time India has issued a tender for attack helicopters. The first tender issued in May 2008 was scrapped in March by the government. Neither Bell Helicopter nor Boeing participated in that effort. Bell has said it will not participate in the new competition.

Meanwhile, the way is now clear for the implementation of the $2.1 billion contract for India to buy eight Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft. The technical assistance agreement for the contract has now been worked out, according to Vivek Lall, head of Boeing Integrated Defense Systems in India.

We are looking forward to delivering them, Lall said.

The contract for eight P-8I aircraft was signed on Jan. 1. Following the recent visit of U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton here, the controversial defense technology end-use monitoring agreement between India and the U.S. has been finalized as well, making the going smoother.

The end-user monitoring (EUM) accord systematizes ad hoc arrangements for individual defense procurements from the U.S. entered into by previous governments. The agreement will make it easier to share important U.S. defense technology with India, Boeing said in a statement.

Beyond the immediate affect of allowing greater cooperation between the two sides, the EUM accord indicates a high level of trust and cooperation between the U.S. and India, according to Ron Somers, president of the U.S.-India Business Council.

Boeing says it also is keen to offer India the C-17, which can carry large equipment, supplies and troops directly to small airfields. The C-17 fits in well with Indias operational requirements, Lall says. The U.S. government received a request for information in 2008.

A senior Indian air force official was quoted recently saying that the aircraft had been chosen after a thorough study because of its range, ease of operation and capability to take off and land on short runways with heavy loads. The Indian air force is said to be looking at acquiring ten C-17s, initially through the U.S. governments Foreign Military Sales route


----------



## Super Falcon

Production of MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014, a Russian aircraft maker said on Thursday.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F), is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high acclaim during the Le Bourget air show in France last year.

"We have begun testing the MiG-35 fighter for the Indian tender," said Alexander Karezin, general director of the Sokol company based in Nizhny Novgorod.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

Sokol earlier said that the first two MiG-35 aircraft would be delivered to India in August for test flights prior to the award of the tender. In late 2009, Russia will conduct a series of flight tests with live firing for an Indian Air Force delegation at one of the testing grounds on the Russian territory.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

Moscow said if MiG-35 wins the tender, Russia is ready to transfer all key technology to India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and provide assistance for the production of the aircraft in the country


----------



## SBD-3

Growler said:


> Sorry bro i beg to differ. Fc-20 is not that much of a improvement that it deserves to be called high tech when Jf-17 is associated with low tech. We do not even know Fc-20's configuration and it would have been much better for PAF if FC-20 would have been inducted in same time frame as MKI and both would be a good match.
> PAF is not repeating same old mistake of 90s. In fact PAF has ordered surplus amount of spares and not paying a single penny before these things are in their hands.
> FC-20 could turn out to be a good MRCA but a big negative tag it carries is the fact that it will be almost a decade behind!


something is better than nothing


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## Myth_buster_1

hasnain0099 said:


> something is better than nothing



We can have a lot better stuff, the world for pakistan does not end with china.


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## hj786

Growler said:


> Sorry bro i beg to differ. Fc-20 is not that much of a improvement that it deserves to be called high tech when Jf-17 is associated with low tech.


All I can say is that Pakistan Air Force disagrees with you brother! They picked FC-20 over Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen, despite the Rafale being available with next to no worries about sanctions. Notice the PAF evaluated FC-20 alongside platforms such as Rafale and Gripen, not Mirage 2000 and F-16. 


Growler said:


> We do not even know Fc-20's configuration and it would have been much better for PAF if FC-20 would have been inducted in same time frame as MKI and both would be a good match.


We don't know the configuration of any of the PAF's fighters! We have a retired Group Captain (P.Shamim sahib) telling us they have South African/Pakistani MRAAMs operational, what makes you think you know anything about the PAF's most potent equipment? The PAF should induct new aeroplanes if and when they meet the requirements, not merely to respond to their adversary.


Growler said:


> FC-20 could turn out to be a good MRCA but a big negative tag it carries is the fact that it will be almost a decade behind! We can have a lot better stuff


Better late that never. Not without money and threat of sanctions.

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## Arsalan

Growler said:


> We can have a lot better stuff, the world for pakistan does not end with china.



it surely do not end there, i also understand your idea of not putting all eggs in one basket but it is better to keep them there rather then to throw half of them to every tom dick and harry!
the options that we can access other then J10 are the rafale and gripen, nothing else!
brother if you take a look at there specs and then compare there prices the decesion of PAF to go for FC20 is justified. anther added advantage with chines deals is the opportuinity to learn and modify the systems according to our wish and requirments. this do not come from any other supplier dear!
FC20 is a true 4.5 generation MRCA and stand in league of rafale, Gripen and Su30s. we must not dislike chines equipment just because they are jsut chines (questioning there reliability)

regards!

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## ISRO2

Growler said:


> We can have a lot better stuff, the world for pakistan does not end with china.



Sir if i believe you then china has more money but why other countries not selling china much? China can buy them by power of money but major countries not selling china anything. Same way sir if pakistan has money it doesn't mean pakistan can buy anything. Pakistan can buy weapons by only 3 countries. China, germany and turkey. Apart from it pakistan dont have much option sir. China the only country pakistan can trust sir.

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## Arsalan

these are the matter were reliability on supplier as much important as the reliability of supplies!!
China is the only option that fits into this frame!

regards!


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## SinoIndusFriendship

arsalanaslam123 said:


> it surely do not end there, i also understand your idea of not putting all eggs in one basket but it is better to keep them there rather then to throw half of them to every tom dick and harry!
> the options that we can access other then J10 are the rafale and gripen, nothing else!
> brother if you take a look at there specs and then compare there prices the decesion of PAF to go for FC20 is justified. anther added advantage with chines deals is the opportuinity to learn and modify the systems according to our wish and requirments. this do not come from any other supplier dear!
> FC20 is a true 4.5 generation MRCA and stand in league of rafale, Gripen and Su30s. we must not dislike chines equipment just because they are jsut chines (questioning there reliability)
> 
> regards!



In the land of blind men, the one-eye man is KING! Likewise, all around the one-eye China are blind men.


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## SBD-3

Growler said:


> We can have a lot better stuff, the world for pakistan does not end with china.


ya sure we can have JSF 
the point is that 
1) confess we are not that rich
2) China mostly offers ToT with no strings like Europe and US 
3) Like JF-17 its not something that's extraordinary but it will give us the 1st step same is the case with F-22P same is the case with Agosta 90b so at least we are taking 1st step 
The way you see things. I wish we were KSA and could spend 44 Bn USD a year on our defence


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## Myth_buster_1

hj786 said:


> All I can say is that Pakistan Air Force disagrees with you brother!


They wont be disagreeing if they had budget like IAF.



> They picked FC-20 over Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen, despite the Rafale being available with next to no worries about sanctions. Notice the PAF evaluated FC-20 alongside platforms such as Rafale and Gripen, not Mirage 2000 and F-16.


They picked FC-20 because it is the cheapest (cost effective) 4.5 generation MRCA.


> We don't know the configuration of any of the PAF's fighters!


 we do have a basic idea of F-16s.
- F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Engines
- APG-68(V)9 radar
- Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
- AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
- Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System
- AN/ALQ-184 or AN/ALQ-131 or AN/ALQ-187 Electronic Counter 
- AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without 
- AN/ALQ-211(V)9 



> We have a retired Group Captain (P.Shamim sahib) telling us they have South African/Pakistani MRAAMs operational, what makes you think you know anything about the PAF's most potent equipment?


If thats true then GOOD FOR PAF! 



> The PAF should induct new aeroplanes if and when they meet the requirements, not merely to respond to their adversary.


And PAF requirement is to meet its adversary capability. You see what ever india inducts or introduces new technology PAF has to respond to that threat. by the end of next decade IAF will have 5th generation fighters and PAF will "RESPOND" to its adversary.


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## Patriot

ISRO2 said:


> Sir if i believe you then china has more money but why other countries not selling china much? China can buy them by power of money but major countries not selling china anything. Same way sir if pakistan has money it doesn't mean pakistan can buy anything. Pakistan can buy weapons by only 3 countries. China, germany and turkey. Apart from it pakistan dont have much option sir. China the only country pakistan can trust sir.


Looks like you forgot Sweden, Ukraine, France and Italy.


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## PakShaheen79

ISRO2 said:


> Sir if i believe you then china has more money but why other countries not selling china much? China can buy them by power of money but major countries not selling china anything. Same way sir if pakistan has money it doesn't mean pakistan can buy anything. Pakistan can buy weapons by only 3 countries. China, germany and turkey. Apart from it pakistan dont have much option sir. China the only country pakistan can trust sir.



How Pakistan got Agosta-90B, Erieye, Il-78 tankers and Spada air defense system? West know very well once they allow Chinese to buy how all the stuff will be ended in Chinese beside i don't think apart from EF-2000, Rafale etc.West has many things to offfer to China. USA is another story altogether.


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## hj786

Growler said:


> They wont be disagreeing if they had budget like IAF.


They had a budget in the late 1980s for the EF Typhoon of the time, the F-16. 70 of them in addition to the 40 already delivered. Remember what happened? 


Growler said:


> They picked FC-20 because it is the cheapest (cost effective) 4.5 generation MRCA.


So you're trying to argue that the PAF should NOT buy the most cost-effective aeroplane that meets all their requirements? 


Growler said:


> we do have a basic idea of F-16s.


You can read the brochure, is that it? All you have is what the names of the F-16's systems are? 


Growler said:


> If thats true then GOOD FOR PAF!


Yes sir, good for them. Did you understand the point I was trying to make? 


Growler said:


> And PAF requirement is to meet its adversary capability. You see what ever india inducts or introduces new technology PAF has to respond to that threat.


 One problem: your definition of "new technology" is the Flanker-H. 


Growler said:


> by the end of next decade IAF will have 5th generation fighters


 Sure they will. Because the InAF gets everything right on time, don't they? 


Growler said:


> and PAF will "RESPOND" to its adversary.


 What good are the Eurofighter Typhoons you are advocating against InAF's 5th generation fighters that they WILL CERTAINLY HAVE by 2020? By your logic the PAF should be ordering F-22 Raptors right now.

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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> it surely do not end there, i also understand your idea of not putting all eggs in one basket but it is better to keep them there rather then to throw half of them to every tom dick and harry!


Mind you we have not thrown any eggs in wrong places as of now. Type-214, Milgem, F-16s AMRAAM JDAM JSOW are certainly our golden eggs. 


> the options that we can access other then J10 are the rafale and gripen, nothing else!


 and both were technically better option. 


> brother if you take a look at there specs and then compare there prices the decesion of PAF to go for FC20 is justified.


Thats what i am trying to say, FC-20 is a cost effective option thats why it was chosen. 


> anther added advantage with chines deals is the opportuinity to learn and modify the systems according to our wish and requirments.


Its going to be very hard to explain our fellow pakistani members that the pak-china military cooperation is not as lovely as we all pretend to think. 2 army officers that i have talked to have serious reservation about chinese equipments. Even they have their own conditions but not to a extreme like american and i am not making that up but saying exactly their words. I was just like you front of them trying to convince them that China provides us the best of the best equipments that we want but again and again got the same answer (NO). the FC-20 is merely a further upgrade of J-10A which could be done in span of years rather then a decade for some reason. just one of my observation, the IRST on FC-20 is most likely to be one from J-11 so not the latest equipment considering we are talking about 2015. 
The only solution to make FC-20 ture 4.5 generation MRCA is to intergate western avionics, radar, armaments etc comparable to their latest 4.5 generation MRCA. 


> this do not come from any other supplier dear!
> FC20 is a true 4.5 generation MRCA and stand in league of rafale, Gripen and Su30s. we must not dislike chines equipment just because they are jsut chines (questioning there reliability)


no i do not hate chinese nor do i blindly have a love affair with china. 
JF-17 is by far the best venture between pak and china.


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## Myth_buster_1

hj786 said:


> They had a budget in the late 1980s for the EF Typhoon of the time, the F-16. 70 of them in addition to the 40 already delivered. Remember what happened?


The problem with pakistan back then was that we blindly trusted America like we do China today. 



> So you're trying to argue that the PAF should NOT buy the most cost-effective aeroplane that meets all their requirements?


 even F-16s meet PAF requirements. 



> You can read the brochure, is that it? All you have is what the names of the F-16's systems are?


excuse me? and you must be the PAF's professional civilian hired military equipment analysts? 


> One problem: your definition of "new technology" is the Flanker-H.
> Sure they will. Because the InAF gets everything right on time, don't they?


They certainly got Su-30MKI on time and certainly will get the american FA-18s on time as well. by the time FC-20 arrives SU-30MKI will be not be same as today. 


> What good are the Eurofighter Typhoons you are advocating against InAF's 5th generation fighters that they WILL CERTAINLY HAVE by 2020? By your logic the PAF should be ordering F-22 Raptors right now.


Do you have tendency of assuming what others may say and take words out of context? 
If you say so then add B-2 on top of your list.


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## PakShaheen79

> *Growler*
> Its going to be very hard to explain our fellow pakistani members that the pak-china military cooperation is not as lovely as we all pretend to think. 2 army officers that i have talked to have serious reservation about chinese equipments. Even they have their own conditions but not to a extreme like american and i am not making that up but saying exactly their words. I was just like you front of them trying to convince them that China provides us the best of the best equipments that we want but again and again got the same answer (NO). the FC-20 is merely a further upgrade of J-10A which could be done in span of years rather then a decade for some reason. just one of my observation, the IRST on FC-20 is most likely to be one from J-11 so not the latest equipment considering we are talking about 2015.
> The only solution to make FC-20 ture 4.5 generation MRCA is to intergate western avionics, radar, armaments etc comparable to their latest 4.5 generation MRCA.



I think we better adopt wait and see policy on FC-20 as there is no official specs of this fighter is available.


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## Arsalan

Sir Growler the thing is that we can go for better option only if available!
the U214 was there and PN did have a go at it didnt they??
now for F16, yes they are golden egg but we have experienced how bitter they taste, havent we done so in the past??
yes FC20 is a cost effective option but this do not point in direction of FC20 being an non-capable platform, , , i hope you remeber that FC were given priority over rafale after evaluation!
the F22p is a good deal for present time, the milgem that we ( particularly you) rate so highly is not available as yet,, we may go for them after the F22p as we all know that PN have intention to go for four more frigates after F22p and them if milgem is operational it will be a far better choice!!
sir with all the respect at the moment we must not point our fingures towards mediocre chines equipment in favour of high tech US ones that might never come. this is not my wild guess but a lesson that histiry have taught us!

i wish you can understand what i am trying to say,

regards!

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## abbasniazi

From what i have read out and seen on the web, i think china is on the way to develop superb fighters and bombers, but these are expected to become operational between 2015-20, so as a stopgap PAF should procure atleast 3-4 squarderns of the state of the art fighters from the west, no matter how expensive they are, i'd suggest 2-3 squadrens of Typhoons and 2 squadrens of JAS 39 Grippen or rafael to put some sort of deterence to IAF...


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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Sir Growler the thing is that we can go for better option only if available!
> the U214 was there and PN did have a go at it didnt they??


Rafael was their on the table but we did not go for it because pak could not afford it and the Air force had multiple multi billion dollars programs taking place. 
Thank god we did not opt for a Chinese sub which was on the table if ever available. 


> now for F16, yes they are golden egg but we have experienced how bitter they taste, havent we done so in the past??


That was thing of the past. its better if we move on and stop bring in the same old issue in every other possible european weapon acquisitions. 


> yes FC20 is a cost effective option but this do not point in direction of FC20 being an non-capable platform, , ,


We could have gotten FC-20 a lot quicker, its merely a upgraded platform and only with european avionics radar armament will this AC earn the right to be called 4.5 generation fighter. 


> i hope you remeber that FC were given priority over rafale after evaluation!


that means squat in a technical term. we did not proceed with FC-20 because they were technically so superior but (cost effective). IMO PAF intention was to do a indian style MKI make up on FC-20. Get a good platform and interrogate western technologies. I hope FC-20 does receives uptodate systems which just does not only meets PAF requirement but also technically par to IAF 4.5 generation fleet which is our number one priority. 


> the F22p is a good deal for present time, the milgem that we ( particularly you) rate so highly is not available as yet,, we may go for them after the F22p as we all know that PN have intention to go for four more frigates after F22p and them if milgem is operational it will be a far better choice!!


All i can say that this has to be one of the worst military acquisition ever. Its like pakistan inducting 150 JF-17 basic version without european input and also without a joint venture. 
F-22P deal would have been great if we actually participated in the development like in the case of al-khalid or JF-17. 
Milgem on the other hand... it will be a disgrace for a combatant ship like milgem to be compared with F-22P 



> sir with all the respect at the moment we must not point our fingures towards mediocre chines equipment in favour of high tech US ones that might never come. this is not my wild guess but a lesson that histiry have taught us!


No i am not generalizing chinese capability. all i am trying to say that upgradtion of J-10A to B could be done much earlier and in case of frigates we could have got a better chinese option like type-054. Where is the help? all i see is a 10 year payment credit. 

regards.


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## wild peace

hj786 said:


> Senate panel agrees to open door to possible F-22 exports
> 
> The Senate Appropriations Committee voted unanimously Thursday to approve an fiscal 2010 Defense spending bill that would allow the Defense Department to develop an export version of the radar-evading F-22 Raptor fighter jet.While the committee bill, if enacted, would not repeal a decade-old law prohibiting foreign sales of the stealthy fighter, it would mark a significant step forward in opening up the Lockheed Martin Corp. jet to U.S. allies just as the plane's domestic production lines are winding down."It's a good next step," a Senate aide said of the F-22 provision in the $636.3 billion spending bill.
> 
> For years, lawmakers in both chambers have thwarted any effort to sell the F-22 overseas, arguing that exporting the advanced technologies in the fighter jet would pose a significant security risk. But proponents of exporting the plane argue that selling an export model of the F-22, stripped of secret U.S. technologies, would eliminate that risk.House lawmakers approved a floor amendment to the fiscal 2007 Defense appropriations bill that would lift the ban. But export opponents in the House and Senate eliminated that provision during conference negotiations on the bill.
> 
> The Senate's language in the fiscal 2010 bill will likely meet stiff resistance from House appropriators -- especially Appropriations Committee Chairman David Obey, D-Wis., author of the 1998 ban on F-22 exports -- who continue to be concerned about the security implications of selling the F-22 abroad.While the Senate bill maintains the export ban, it says the Defense Department "may conduct or participate in studies, research, design and other activities to define and develop an export version of the F-22A." The committee report accompanying the bill encourages the Air Force to use F-22 research and development funds to begin work on an export version of the fighter.The House bill, which was approved in July, continues the ban and does not open the door to developing an exportable version of the fighter.
> 
> But the political landscape could be shifting a bit as domestic production of the F-22 comes to an end -- a development the program's supporters in Congress fear will lead to thousands of aerospace jobs lost in dozens of states.Both the House and Senate already have approved versions of the fiscal 2010 defense authorization bill with language demanding the Pentagon report to Congress on the costs of developing an exportable version of the F-22 and any potential strategic implications.Japan is considered the most likely customer for the F-22, particularly as North Korea continues its ballistic missile testing. South Korea, Australia and Israel have also have expressed interest in buying the plane despite a price tag that could top $150 million a jet.
> 
> The Senate is expected to take up the $636.3 billion Defense appropriations bill later this month.Senate Appropriations Committee ranking member Thad Cochran, R-Miss., said Thursday that his goal is to wrap up conference negotiations with the House and send the bill to the president's desk by Oct. 1,
> 
> We have to go for them if American are willing?????


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## Arsalan

wild peace said:


> Senate panel agrees to open door to possible F-22 exports
> 
> The Senate Appropriations Committee voted unanimously Thursday to approve an fiscal 2010 Defense spending bill that would allow the Defense Department to develop an export version of the radar-evading F-22 Raptor fighter jet.While the committee bill, if enacted, would not repeal a decade-old law prohibiting foreign sales of the stealthy fighter, it would mark a significant step forward in opening up the Lockheed Martin Corp. jet to U.S. allies just as the plane's domestic production lines are winding down."It's a good next step," a Senate aide said of the F-22 provision in the $636.3 billion spending bill.
> 
> For years, lawmakers in both chambers have thwarted any effort to sell the F-22 overseas, arguing that exporting the advanced technologies in the fighter jet would pose a significant security risk. But proponents of exporting the plane argue that selling an export model of the F-22, stripped of secret U.S. technologies, would eliminate that risk.House lawmakers approved a floor amendment to the fiscal 2007 Defense appropriations bill that would lift the ban. But export opponents in the House and Senate eliminated that provision during conference negotiations on the bill.
> 
> The Senate's language in the fiscal 2010 bill will likely meet stiff resistance from House appropriators -- especially Appropriations Committee Chairman David Obey, D-Wis., author of the 1998 ban on F-22 exports -- who continue to be concerned about the security implications of selling the F-22 abroad.While the Senate bill maintains the export ban, it says the Defense Department "may conduct or participate in studies, research, design and other activities to define and develop an export version of the F-22A." The committee report accompanying the bill encourages the Air Force to use F-22 research and development funds to begin work on an export version of the fighter.The House bill, which was approved in July, continues the ban and does not open the door to developing an exportable version of the fighter.
> 
> But the political landscape could be shifting a bit as domestic production of the F-22 comes to an end -- a development the program's supporters in Congress fear will lead to thousands of aerospace jobs lost in dozens of states.Both the House and Senate already have approved versions of the fiscal 2010 defense authorization bill with language demanding the Pentagon report to Congress on the costs of developing an exportable version of the F-22 and any potential strategic implications.Japan is considered the most likely customer for the F-22, particularly as North Korea continues its ballistic missile testing. South Korea, Australia and Israel have also have expressed interest in buying the plane despite a price tag that could top $150 million a jet.
> 
> The Senate is expected to take up the $636.3 billion Defense appropriations bill later this month.Senate Appropriations Committee ranking member Thad Cochran, R-Miss., said Thursday that his goal is to wrap up conference negotiations with the House and send the bill to the president's desk by Oct. 1,
> 
> We have to go for them if American are willing?????



  
well it is more then *"if america is willing"*, more importantly if M. Zardari is willing to empty his pocket,, i bet if he donates his money to PAF only then we can get the F22zz



wake up dude!!

regards!

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## MACH

Pakistans best answer to MRCA is a big pile of money and a strong economy 

PEACE


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## SBD-3

whose getting the skeleton out of grave??????


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## jagjitnatt

The latest block 60 of F16, would be the best bet for PAF. They could also get some f35 in future. Chinese planes are cheap but low on quality. They just cannot be compared. Even JF-17 is useless unless western equipment is installed on it, which is PAF is upgrading them further.


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## aks

jagjitnatt said:


> The latest block 60 of F16, would be the best bet for PAF. They could also get some f35 in future. Chinese planes are cheap but low on quality. They just cannot be compared. Even JF-17 is useless unless western equipment is installed on it, which is PAF is upgrading them further.





awwww if chinese planes are cheap then why US is so worried about new chinese developments

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## MZUBAIR

*ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has deferred the purchase of state of the art fighter J-10 planes from China till test flights.*

Defence sources told Online Monday Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was taking interest in acquisition of state of the art J-10 fighter planes from China. Air Chief Marshall, Rao Qamar Suleman however during his briefing to the members of senate committee on defence told no formal decision had been taken so far to purchase these planes. &#65533;We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF &#65533;, he remarked. 

Sources told PAF was facing lack of funds problem in the wake of tough economic situation. Therefore, PAF was completing its ongoing projects and these would be completed in time.However a clear decision with reference to J-10 planes would be made after their induction in Chinese air fleet and their performance in test flights.


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## MZUBAIR

I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II.

70	F-16	B-52 ( 4th gene)
80	Mirage	ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
55	F-7PG	(eq to 4th gene)
50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)
70	Mirage	2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407

Considering India _(on realistic basis...)_ would only be having following jets after couple of years *(Indians dont Trol)*


200	MKI
100	Mig 29
50	Mirage 2K9
Total 350
*Other Indian jets are unfit for war.*


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## LCA Tejas

MZUBAIR said:


> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II.
> 
> 70	F-16	B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80	Mirage	ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55	F-7PG	(eq to 4th gene)
> 50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
> 150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)
> 70	Mirage	2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407
> 
> Considering India _(on realistic basis...)_ would only be having following jets after couple of years *(Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200	MKI
> 100	Mig 29
> 50	Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> *Other Indian jets are unfit for war.*



*Allow me to correct it as how much will IAF have in future.*

300 MKI
126-200 MRCA
80 LCA Tejas
250 FGFA+50 T-50
130 MIG 29(India ordered additional 30 Mig 29's)
atleast 100 MCA

There you go total 1110 and many more of LCA MK2 comes out(pakistanis dont troll)

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## equiliz3r

MZUBAIR said:


> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II.
> 
> 70	F-16	B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80	Mirage	ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55	F-7PG	(eq to 4th gene)
> 50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
> 150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)
> 70	Mirage	2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407
> 
> Considering India _(on realistic basis...)_ would only be having following jets after couple of years *(Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200	MKI
> 100	Mig 29
> 50	Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> *Other Indian jets are unfit for war.*





sorry sir but Data about India is not correct.

First of all plz tell what do you mean by "after few years" wrt to Indian data.

agreed with Mig 21 not fit for war, but Mig 27 and Jaguar are fit for war, ................Airforce is going to upgrade jaguar soon.

Bison upgrade of Mig 21 can fight to some extend.
Secondly,.................production of Tejas is expected to start soon.


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## aks

LCA Tejas said:


> *Allow me to correct it as how much will IAF have in future.*
> 
> 300 MKI
> 126-200 MRCA
> 80 LCA Tejas
> 250 FGFA+50 T-50
> 130 MIG 29(India ordered additional 30 Mig 29's)
> atleast 100 MCA
> 
> There you go total 1110 and many more of LCA MK2 comes out(pakistanis dont troll)





u talking about next 25 years or next 5 years

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## MZUBAIR

LCA Tejas said:


> *Allow me to correct it as how much will IAF have in future.*
> 
> 300 MKI
> 126-200 MRCA
> 80 LCA Tejas
> 250 FGFA+50 T-50
> 130 MIG 29(India ordered additional 30 Mig 29's)
> atleast 100 MCA
> 
> There you go total 1110 and many more of LCA MK2 comes out(pakistanis dont troll)



*I told Indins dont troll*

On realistic basis India is not going to have MRCA, LCA, MCA or FGFA withn couple of years (2 years). 

Dont troll my words 



> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II.
> 
> 70 F-16 B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55 F-7PG (eq to 4th gene)
> 50 JF-B1 ( 4th gene)
> 150 JF-B2 ( 4th gene)
> 70 Mirage 2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407
> 
> Considering India (on realistic basis...) would only be having following jets after* couple of years (Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200 MKI
> 100 Mig 29
> 50 Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> Other Indian jets are unfit for war.


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## aks

MZUBAIR said:


> *I told Indins dont troll*
> 
> On realistic basis India is not going to have MRCA, LCA, MCA or FGFA withn couple of years (2 years).
> 
> Dont troll my words
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II.
> 
> 70 F-16 B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55 F-7PG (eq to 4th gene)
> 50 JF-B1 ( 4th gene)
> 150 JF-B2 ( 4th gene)
> 70 Mirage 2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407
> 
> Considering India (on realistic basis...) would only be having following jets after* couple of years (Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200 MKI
> 100 Mig 29
> 50 Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> Other Indian jets are unfit for war.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> where are j10s
Click to expand...


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## LCA Tejas

MZUBAIR said:


> *I told Indins dont troll*
> 
> On realistic basis India is not going to have MRCA, LCA, MCA or FGFA withn couple of years (2 years).
> 
> Dont troll my words



Why not? when you are assuming stuffs and Comparing with Today's IAF with future PAF... does that make sense to you?


----------



## blueoval79

> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II.
> 
> 70 F-16 B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55 F-7PG (eq to 4th gene)
> 50 JF-B1 ( 4th gene)
> 150 JF-B2 ( 4th gene)
> 70 Mirage 2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407
> 
> Considering India (on realistic basis...) would only be having following jets after* couple of years (Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200 MKI
> 100 Mig 29
> 50 Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> Other Indian jets are unfit for war.[/QUOTE]




Pakistan will Have 200 Plus JF17...in 24 Months.. wow...with a capacity of Manufacturing 15 JF17 ..per year....


I guess China is going to make Only JF17 for PAkistan and nothing else for themselves...is that what you think......


Wish-full thinking.....


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## MZUBAIR

equiliz3r said:


> sorry sir but Data about India is not correct.
> 
> First of all plz tell what do you mean by *"after few years"* wrt to Indian data.
> 
> agreed with Mig 21 not fit for war, but Mig 27 and Jaguar are fit for war, ................Airforce is going to upgrade jaguar soon.
> 
> Bison upgrade of Mig 21 can fight to some extend.
> Secondly,.................production of Tejas is expected to start soon.




After few years....means........couple of years/ 2 years.
Mig 27 n Jaguar are not fit for war ......old horses....thats I y I am also not including PAF 100 Mirage III/V (Which are not upgarded ROSE prog), 150 F-7 and 40 A5/Q5.

So plz stick wt I said on realistic basis and troll.




> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II.
> 
> 70 F-16 B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55 F-7PG (eq to 4th gene)
> 50 JF-B1 ( 4th gene)
> 150 JF-B2 ( 4th gene)
> 70 Mirage 2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407
> 
> Considering India (on realistic basis...) would only be having following jets after* couple of years (Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200 MKI
> 100 Mig 29
> 50 Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> Other Indian jets are unfit for war.


----------



## MZUBAIR

LCA Tejas said:


> Why not? when you are assuming stuffs and Comparing with Today's IAF with future PAF... does that make sense to you?



Todays IAF is 
141 MKI
45 Mk2
60 Mig 29

And I was comparing IAF vs PAF after 2 years. *U wouldnt have* MRCA, LCA MCA, FGFA and 200+ MKI after 2 years


----------



## blueoval79

MZUBAIR said:


> Todays IAF is
> 141 MKI
> 45 Mk2
> 60 Mig 29
> 
> And I was comparing IAF vs PAF after 2 years. *U wouldnt have* MRCA, LCA MCA, FGFA and 200+ MKI after 2 years



But you would have 200 JF 17 ....that too with Manufacturing Capacity of 15 Per Year......anyone else wants to join me in this laughing Roll....


----------



## MZUBAIR

Botton Line is India is still planning for MRCA....so no need to panic
*ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has deferred the purchase of state of the art fighter J-10 planes from China till test flights.*

Defence sources told Online Monday Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was taking interest in acquisition of state of the art J-10 fighter planes from China. Air Chief Marshall, Rao Qamar Suleman however during his briefing to the members of senate committee on defence told no formal decision had been taken so far to purchase these planes. &#65533;We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF &#65533;, he remarked. 

Sources told PAF was facing lack of funds problem in the wake of tough economic situation. Therefore, PAF was completing its ongoing projects and these would be completed in time.However a clear decision with reference to J-10 planes would be made after their induction in Chinese air fleet and their performance in test flights.


----------



## equiliz3r

MZUBAIR said:


> *I told Indins dont troll*
> 
> On realistic basis India is not going to have MRCA, LCA, MCA or FGFA withn couple of years (2 years).
> 
> Dont troll my words




sir , you skipped my comment............although it wasnt a troll.

You said about 2 years.

Tejas will get IOC later this year and production will start with about 14 aircrafts per year.

secondly you already have skipped Jaguar and Mig27 aircrafts.

Moreover Mig 21 Bison ( plz note "BISON") are very well able to fight.

Reply awaited


----------



## LCA Tejas

MZUBAIR said:


> Todays IAF is
> 141 MKI
> 45 Mk2
> 60 Mig 29
> 
> And I was comparing IAF vs PAF after 2 years. *U wouldnt have* MRCA, LCA MCA, FGFA and 200+ MKI after 2 years



And you will get 80 Mirage ROSE in 2 years, like you have only 33 now.
47 f-7 PG and that too is used for training and is a mig 21 class fighter.
you got 55 f-16's... is pakistan buying more?

And you will have 200 Jf series within 2 years, wonderful, Man your imagination is beyond anyone ....


----------



## equiliz3r

MZUBAIR said:


> Todays IAF is
> 141 MKI
> 45 Mk2
> 60 Mig 29
> 
> And I was comparing IAF vs PAF after 2 years. *U wouldnt have* MRCA, LCA MCA, FGFA and 200+ MKI after 2 years



I just noticed 200 Jf in 2 years.................thats too much.............whoes trolling now


----------



## LCA Tejas

equiliz3r said:


> I just noticed 200 Jf in 2 years.................thats too much.............whoes trolling now



They enjoy the license to Imagine buddy....


----------



## MZUBAIR

equiliz3r said:


> sir , you skipped my comment............although it wasnt a troll.
> 
> You said about 2 years.
> 
> Tejas will get IOC later this year and production will start with about 14 aircrafts per year.



LCA is in development status.......*if* even production starts next year....1sqd will take one more year to rise up. So the issue is *if* coz all _(either Indian or Pak or anyone intrested in aviation)_ of us know that LCA production is till not unsure. Selection of engine and radar is still pending. Okay on other hand if 1st sqd of LCA rose up still it wouldnt give an edge.



> secondly you already have skipped Jaguar and Mig27 aircrafts.



No doubt they are out dated. No doubt IAF have plans to upgrade Jaguars...but its still plan.....and even *if* IAF executes now it will take atleast 2 years from now...... so the word *IF* comes again....every thing is doubtfull on *IF*.



> Moreover Mig 21 Bison ( plz note "BISON") are very well able to fight.
> 
> Reply awaited



No Mig 21 Bison is 3rd gene, is an old tech not able to fight against 4th gen fighters

Its just like ur comparing Pentium I vs Dual Core processor.


----------



## MZUBAIR

equiliz3r said:


> I just noticed 200 Jf in 2 years.................thats too much.............whoes trolling now



I agree 200 is hard ........but yes 100 + can be acheieveable..lets make change in my post


> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II.
> 
> 70 F-16 B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55 F-7PG (eq to 4th gene)
> *50 JF-B1 ( 4th gene) * 20 already developed, both SQD will be developed by the end of year.
> 
> *70 JF-B2 ( 4th gene)* 2 SQD req till 2012 (makes 2 year plan)
> 
> 70 Mirage 2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 395 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 325
> 
> *300 + Still batter in quality and quanity ....no need to panic*
> 
> Considering India (on realistic basis...) would only be having following jets after couple of years (Indians dont Trol)
> 
> 
> 200 MKI
> 100 Mig 29
> 50 Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> Other Indian jets are unfit for war.


----------



## pakpower

The bottom line is that on most occasions Indians troll each and every thread which they like to so nothing new here also.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MZUBAIR

Test Flight is imp


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## equiliz3r

pakpower said:


> The bottom line is that on most occasions Indians troll each and every thread which they like to so nothing new here also.




I think you havent read that the gentleman above has already said he gave wrong numbers .....................


and your this statement do comes under trolling


----------



## SBD-3

LCA Tejas said:


> *Allow me to correct it as how much will IAF have in future.*
> 
> 300 MKI
> 126-200 MRCA
> 80 LCA Tejas
> 250 FGFA+50 T-50
> 130 MIG 29(India ordered additional 30 Mig 29's)
> atleast 100 MCA
> 
> There you go total 1110 and many more of LCA MK2 comes out(pakistanis dont troll)



what would IAF want to do??????????launch an intergalactic war?????????????????


----------



## LCA Tejas

MZUBAIR said:


> LCA is in development status.......*if* even production starts next year....1sqd will take one more year to rise up. So the issue is *if* coz all _(either Indian or Pak or anyone intrested in aviation)_ of us know that LCA production is till not unsure. Selection of engine and radar is still pending. Okay on other hand if 1st sqd of LCA rose up still it wouldnt give an edge..



LCA has got (LSP) limited series production from the GOI and defense minister has sanctioned 8000 crores for it. 



MZUBAIR said:


> No doubt they are out dated. No doubt IAF have plans to upgrade Jaguars...but its still plan.....and even *if* IAF executes now it will take atleast 2 years from now...... so the word *IF* comes again....every thing is doubtfull on *IF*..



HAL has completed phase one of Jaguar Upgradation, so it has already started. no* If's*



MZUBAIR said:


> No Mig 21 Bison is 3rd gene, is an old tech not able to fight against 4th gen fighters
> 
> Its just like ur comparing Pentium I vs Dual Core processor.



If mig 21 is a 3rd gen plane then what is F-7 which u have included? f-7 is 2nd gen plane and IAF's Mig 21 bison is the latest in the upgraded Mig 21 series.... and is still very fit for war...


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## LCA Tejas

hasnain0099 said:


> what would IAF want to do??????????launch an intergalactic war?????????????????



No, to stop it from happening


----------



## MZUBAIR

equiliz3r said:


> I think you havent read that the gentleman above has already said he gave wrong numbers .....................
> 
> 
> and your this statement do comes under trolling




*What wrong numbers......*I also added 5 more Mk9, 30 more mig 29 and 70 MKI which is not realstic ....If i think like u.



I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II production.

70 F-16 B-52 ( 4th gene)
80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
55 F-7PG (eq to 4th gene)
50 JF-B1 ( 4th gene) 20 already developed, both SQD will be developed by the end of year.

70 JF-B2 ( 4th gene) 2 SQD req till 2012 (makes 2 year plan)

70 Mirage 2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
*Total 395 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 325*

300 + Still batter in quality and quanity ....no need to panic

*Considering India (on realistic basis...) would only be having following jets after couple of years (Indians dont Trol)*


200 MKI
100 Mig 29
50 Mirage 2K9
*Total 350*
Other Indian jets are unfit for war.


----------



## chantpapipart2

MZUBAIR said:


> No Mig 21 Bison is 3rd gene, is an old tech not able to fight against 4th gen fighters
> 
> Its just like ur comparing Pentium I vs Dual Core processor.



Sure...Mig 21 bison is 3rd gen and its chinese copy F7PG is fourth.... right????


----------



## SBD-3

LCA Tejas said:


> No, to stop it from happenning



funny indeed....but I must say very "patriotic"


----------



## equiliz3r

MZUBAIR said:


> LCA is in development status.......*if* even production starts next year....1sqd will take one more year to rise up. So the issue is *if* coz all _(either Indian or Pak or anyone intrested in aviation)_ of us know that LCA production is till not unsure. Selection of engine and radar is still pending. Okay on other hand if 1st sqd of LCA rose up still it wouldnt give an edge.
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt they are out dated. No doubt IAF have plans to upgrade Jaguars...but its still plan.....and even *if* IAF executes now it will take atleast 2 years from now...... so the word *IF* comes again....every thing is doubtfull on *IF*.
> 
> 
> 
> No Mig 21 Bison is 3rd gene, is an old tech not able to fight against 4th gen fighters
> 
> Its just like ur comparing Pentium I vs Dual Core processor.



Mig 21 bison can fight although will lose against superior jets.

Outdated is a big term................even mirage 2000 is outdated as Rafeal is here...................and mate you considered it.

f-7 you talking about is also outdated and its production is stoped ............moreover its copy of Mig 21.


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## LCA Tejas

hasnain0099 said:


> funny indeed....but I must say very "patriotic"



My pleasure..


----------



## LCA Tejas

MZUBAIR said:


> *What wrong numbers......*I also added 5 more Mk9, 30 more mig 29 and 70 MKI which is not realstic ....If i think like u.
> 
> 
> 
> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II production.
> 
> 70 F-16 B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> *55 F-7PG (eq to 4th gene)*
> 50 JF-B1 ( 4th gene) 20 already developed, both SQD will be developed by the end of year.
> 
> 70 JF-B2 ( 4th gene) 2 SQD req till 2012 (makes 2 year plan)
> 
> 70 Mirage 2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> *Total 395 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 325*
> 
> 300 + Still batter in quality and quanity ....no need to panic
> 
> *Considering India (on realistic basis...) would only be having following jets after couple of years (Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200 MKI
> 100 Mig 29
> 50 Mirage 2K9
> *Total 350*
> Other Indian jets are unfit for war.



F-7 a 2nd gen aircraft and you call it equal to 4th gen, man you are  ...

When u can get 100 jf-17 series, India can get only 70 Suk 30 MKI and And when India has ordered additional 30 Mig 29 , u just add more 5.... Man again you are


----------



## equiliz3r

MZUBAIR said:


> *What wrong numbers......*I also added 5 more Mk9, 30 more mig 29 and 70 MKI which is not realstic ....If i think like u.
> 
> 
> 
> I think PAF should keep working on the following projs, especially JF-17 Block II production.
> 
> 70 F-16 B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55 F-7PG (eq to 4th gene)
> 50 JF-B1 ( 4th gene) 20 already developed, both SQD will be developed by the end of year.
> 
> 70 JF-B2 ( 4th gene) 2 SQD req till 2012 (makes 2 year plan)
> 
> 70 Mirage 2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> *Total 395 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 325*
> 
> 300 + Still batter in quality and quanity ....no need to panic
> 
> *Considering India (on realistic basis...) would only be having following jets after couple of years (Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200 MKI
> 100 Mig 29
> 50 Mirage 2K9
> *Total 350*
> Other Indian jets are unfit for war.




numbers about 200+ jf-17................you admitted mate................dont you???


----------



## MZUBAIR

LCA Tejas said:


> LCA has got (LSP) limited series production from the GOI and defense minister has sanctioned 8000 crores for it.



So, allocating budget never means that bird is on Air and ur having 1 SQD with in 2 years. We allocated 700m $ for 50 JF-17 units....but they are completely not in air. only MASS production is in process.



> HAL has completed phase one of Jaguar Upgradation, so it has already started. no* If's*



Still...its not compareable to Mirage ROSE and F-7PG




> If mig 21 is a 3rd gen plane then what is F-7 which u have included? f-7 is 2nd gen plane and IAF's Mig 21 bison is the latest in the upgraded Mig 21 series.... and is still very fit for war...



F-7PG is a interceptor fighter and capable to intercept an missile and 4th generation jets ...and I said in ma post that its compareable to 4th gen figther 

Learn to accept.


----------



## MZUBAIR

equiliz3r said:


> numbers about 200+ jf-17................you admitted mate................dont you???



Yeah I did......*coz I m not an Indian.*

Secondly even if we are having less then those numbers which I quoted, there is still no need to panic.

As ur hav only 250- 300 (MKI, Mig-29 n Mirage) jets capable to fight in war.


----------



## MZUBAIR

*Indians are here to troll......................*


----------



## equiliz3r

MZUBAIR said:


> So, allocating budget never means that bird is on Air and ur having 1 SQD with in 2 years. We allocated 700m $ for 50 JF-17 units....but they are completely not in air. only MASS production is in process.
> 
> 
> 
> Still...its not compareable to Mirage ROSE and F-7PG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-7PG is a interceptor fighter and capable to intercept an missile and 4th generation jets ...and I said in ma post that its compareable to 4th gen figther
> 
> Learn to accept.



how can mig 21 bison is unfit but f-7( copy of mig 21) is fit ????

you will never accept that you made a mistake in numbers.

India can produce 14 LCA in one year.
but it suprise me that you are confident that Jf-17 will be more than hundred in two years.


----------



## SBD-3

equiliz3r said:


> numbers about 200+ jf-17................you admitted mate................dont you???



I dont know why the hell on earth some indian posteres try to do such stuff.......100 MCA, 250 FGFA, 50 PAK-Fa, 300 MKIs....sometimes I wonder if IAF is gonna buy them from a toy shop....anyhow, no bar on thinking big...


----------



## LCA Tejas

MZUBAIR said:


> So, allocating budget never means that bird is on Air and ur having 1 SQD with in 2 years. We allocated 700m $ for 50 JF-17 units....but they are completely not in air. only MASS production is in process.



Allocating budget does mean that The production starts, and We will get MASS production when once the operational clearance is given.



MZUBAIR said:


> Still...its not compareable to Mirage ROSE and F-7PG




Thats baseless, In January 2009, India successfully completed the upgrade programs on the Air Force's MiG-27 ground attack variants. DRDO carried out the avionics upgrades on the fighter aircraft. In the upgraded MiG-27s, the avionics system is built around a modular mission computer termed Core Avionics Computer (CAC). The upgraded ground attack fighters are equipped with Inertial Navigation and Global Positioning System (INGPS) providing accurate navigation during aircraft sorties. To provide more accuracy to the aircraft's weapon systems, accurate ranging sensors such as Laser Designator Pod (LDP) and Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) have been integrated in it also. To improve situational awareness of the pilot during air combat, a digital map generator has been integrated along with a digital video recording system, which helps in mission analysis and debrief support

And Jaguar is getting upgraded too...



MZUBAIR said:


> F-7PG is a interceptor fighter and capable to intercept an missile and 4th generation jets ...and I said in ma post that its compareable to 4th gen figther
> 
> Learn to accept.



And learn to accept that No 2nd gen aircraft can be made to a 4th gen aircraft..... F-7pg is weaker than Mig 21 bison.....


----------



## SBD-3

equiliz3r said:


> how can mig 21 bison is unfit but f-7( copy of mig 21) is fit ????
> 
> you will never accept that you made a mistake in numbers.
> 
> India can produce 14 LCA in one year.
> but it suprise me that you are confident that Jf-17 will be more than hundred in two years.



@Mig-21 comparison
this is what we call "good maintainence" khala jee. if Bison is unfit for service......then how does it imply that F-7P/PG will also be unfit?

@Production
Well PAC will produce 30 Thunders a year at full capacity.


----------



## equiliz3r

hasnain0099 said:


> I dont know why the hell on earth some indian posteres try to do such stuff.......100 MCA, 250 FGFA, 50 PAK-Fa, 300 MKIs....sometimes I wonder if IAF is gonna buy them from a toy shop....anyhow, no bar on thinking big...



If I will comment on it ...............it will fall in trolling..................so from me 

"NO COMMENT"


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## LCA Tejas

MZUBAIR said:


> *Indians are here to troll......................*



Let me correct it for you *Indians are here to control the troll......................*


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## equiliz3r

hasnain0099 said:


> @Mig-21 comparison
> this is what we call "good maintainence" khala jee. if Bison is unfit for service......then how does it imply that F-7P/PG will also be unfit?
> 
> @Production
> Well PAC will produce 30 Thunders a year at full capacity.


well mate if you produce even 30 per year.................it wont be 200 in two years.

other gentleman was only talking about generation of aircraft not maintaince.

moreover India can produce 20 su-30 KI per year .
also on order from Russia.


----------



## LCA Tejas

hasnain0099 said:


> I dont know why the hell on earth some indian posteres try to do such stuff.......100 MCA, 250 FGFA, 50 PAK-Fa, 300 MKIs....sometimes I wonder if IAF is gonna buy them from a toy shop....anyhow, no bar on thinking big...



No bar on thinking big when we can achieve it, but its a hurdle for pakistan.... India and Russia have signed for 250 5th gen fighter planes each... and 50 single seater for India and 50 double seater for russia... so a 300 of 5th gen aircraft...

Sukhoi 30 MKI, Back bone of IAF.. we have been ordering and producing .. and Are looking to make it till 300.... and why not google it, u will find lots of sources...

India is one among those who are developing 5th gen aircraft, India has 2 projects, MCA and FGFA....


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## Rain

every one off the track! guys remain focus,


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## equiliz3r

Rain said:


> every one off the track! guys remain focus,




what do you think will be the best option for pakistan against MRCA???


----------



## LCA Tejas

equiliz3r said:


> what do you think will be the best option for pakistan against MRCA???



Get lot of JXX

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SBD-3

equiliz3r said:


> If I will comment on it ...............it will fall in trolling..................so from me
> 
> "NO COMMENT"



well I have an argument to put forward......if you can justify.....ok I assume Su-30 will be upgraded to samrt skin and stuff to make them more stealthy....quite understandble.....the what I was able to learn is that IAF would get Su-30s to 280 and here's the link
IAF wants 50 more Sukhois to counter China, Pakistan - India - The Times of India
....but 300 would require a link... which he has not given....if you want to get respect as a poster....credibility does count.....and furthermore, I assume that IAF will get PAK-FA's as stop gap and FGFAs as domestic fighter.....if you can produce FGFA (touted 100&#37; local prodction by many indian posters, which i don't believe given the info available on 25%), which will already be developed and will not require the costs associated will the development of new aircraft....so why not IAF move for a specialized role derivative of FGFA...you dont know i guess how much would 100 MCA cost and 350 FGFA would cost......keeping maintainence costs aside


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## equiliz3r

LCA Tejas said:


> Get lot of JXX



That thing will be back up plan for MCA and PAKFA.


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## LCA Tejas

hasnain0099 said:


> well I have an argument to put forward......if you can justify.....ok I assume Su-30 will be upgraded to samrt skin and stuff to make them more stealthy....quite understandble.....the what I was able to learn is that IAF would get Su-30s to 280 and here's the link
> IAF wants 50 more Sukhois to counter China, Pakistan - India - The Times of India
> ....but 300 would require a link... which he has not given....if you want to get respect as a poster....credibility does count.....and furthermore, I assume that IAF will get PAK-FA's as stop gap and FGFAs as domestic fighter.....if you can produce FGFA (touted 100&#37; local prodction by many indian posters, which i don't believe given the info available on 25%), which will already be developed and will not require the costs associated will the development of new aircraft....so why not IAF move for a specialized role derivative of FGFA...you dont know i guess how much would 100 MCA cost and 350 FGFA would cost......keeping maintainence costs aside



Well I was the one who said its 300 Sukhoi 30 MKI ..... as per contract 280, let the rest 20 be as per my assumption, well ok... u say 200 Jf series out of which only for 150 Jf-17 have been signed by china and pakistan and that too will be finished only by 2015. where did the extra 50 sneak in and that too in 2 years?

Next, Mirage ROSE- Do u have 80? or 35? at present.. are there any upgrades going on to make further 45 Mirage to Mirage ROSE?

Ok where do u have link to suggest that f-7 is a good fighter aginst 4th gen plane and has been upgraded so perfectly? I have sources to claim that its just a 2nd gen aircraft...

And About our FGFA and MCA.... India will produce FGFA and buy it aswell..... And that too Full TOT which will help us in building our own next generation Aircraft MCA/NGFA ...

And Why worry about the Unit cost, India has money...


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## equiliz3r

hasnain0099 said:


> well I have an argument to put forward......if you can justify.....ok I assume Su-30 will be upgraded to samrt skin and stuff to make them more stealthy....quite understandble.....the what I was able to learn is that IAF would get Su-30s to 280 and here's the link
> IAF wants 50 more Sukhois to counter China, Pakistan - India - The Times of India
> ....but 300 would require a link... which he has not given....if you want to get respect as a poster....credibility does count.....and furthermore, I assume that IAF will get PAK-FA's as stop gap and FGFAs as domestic fighter.....if you can produce FGFA (touted 100% local prodction by many indian posters, which i don't believe given the info available on 25%), which will already be developed and will not require the costs associated will the development of new aircraft....so why not IAF move for a specialized role derivative of FGFA...you dont know i guess how much would 100 MCA cost and 350 FGFA would cost......keeping maintainence costs aside



Su-30 MKI are also in production by HAL which I suppose produce around 20 per year...........as Russia has given permission for that
India ordered 50 more from Russia..........That will be built by russia and bought by India.....and we will have around 280 MKI by 2015.

I hope it clears confusion.

well, About FGFA, its a twin seated variant of PAKFA.......India's contribution is of 25% in it.

India is trying to develop its own industry and for that MCA is must.
FGFA is included in heavy category where as MCA will be of medium range


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## aks

equiliz3r said:


> Su-30 MKI are also in production by HAL which I suppose produce around 20 per year...........as Russia has given permission for that
> India ordered 50 more from Russia..........That will be built by russia and bought by India.....and we will have around 280 MKI by 2015.
> 
> I hope it clears confusion.
> 
> well, About FGFA, its a twin seated variant of PAKFA.......India's contribution is of 25% in it.
> 
> India is trying to develop its own industry and for that MCA is must.
> FGFA is included in heavy category where as MCA will be of medium range




we can handle ur stealth fighter by our f7pgs


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## LCA Tejas

aks said:


> we can handle ur stealth fighter by our f7pgs



Wow.... Expectations are high from a second gen aircraft, may your patriotism burn like this forever....  but to handle your F-7 pg's we have fire and forget stones which even a child can throw from terrace hitting an incoming F-7 of yours


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## SBD-3

aks said:


> we can handle ur stealth fighter by our f7pgs


speaks for your "fresh" label

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## sab

MZUBAIR said:


> Todays IAF is
> 141 MKI
> 45 Mk2
> 60 Mig 29
> 
> And I was comparing IAF vs PAF after 2 years. *U wouldnt have* MRCA, LCA MCA, FGFA and 200+ MKI after 2 years


Man, do you know you are the biggest troll in this thread.

If old Mirage III/V are eq to 4th gen then so is Mig Bison.
By the time all 200 JF-17 will be inducted, Indian will also get their 70-80&#37; of MMRCA ,LCA and probably some PAK-FA too. And full of 280 Su-MKI will be inducted.
Before writing your crap you should have consulted with senior pakistani members about induction plan of JF17. That would have made you less loughing stock.


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## LCA Tejas

sab said:


> Man, do you know you are the biggest troll in this thread.
> 
> If old Mirage III/V are eq to 4th gen then so is Mig Bison.
> By the time all 200 JF-17 will be inducted, Indian will also get their 70-80&#37; of MMRCA ,LCA and probably some PAK-FA too. And full of 280 Su-MKI will be inducted.
> Before writing your crap you should have consulted with senior pakistani members about induction plan of JF17. That would have made you less loughing stock.



Hey buddy contract is signed only for 150 jf-17 and that too only by 2015... and its on on sellers credit from China...


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## SBD-3

LCA Tejas said:


> Well I was the one who said its 300 Sukhoi 30 MKI ..... as per contract 280, let the rest 20 be as per my assumption, well ok... u say 200 Jf series out of which only for 150 Jf-17 have been signed by china and pakistan and that too will be finished only by 2015. where did the extra 50 sneak in and that too in 2 years?


i guess 30x2=60 >50 its simple maths 


> Next, Mirage ROSE- Do u have 80? or 35? at present.. are there any upgrades going on to make further 45 Mirage to Mirage ROSE?


they'll be going home.....no extra money on them.....



> Ok where do u have link to suggest that f-7 is a good fighter aginst 4th gen plane and has been upgraded so perfectly? I have sources to claim that its just a 2nd gen aircraft...


did i say this????????????.....don't expect such things from me boy



> And About our FGFA and MCA.... India will produce FGFA and buy it aswell..... And that too *Full TOT *which will help us in building our own next generation Aircraft MCA/NGFA ...


are you portaying IAF as "pagal nau-daulatiya?". And I have asked for a link mate



> And Why worry about the Unit cost, India has money...


Its not worth arguing with you boy......I give up.....


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## LCA Tejas

hasnain0099 said:


> i guess 30x2=60 >50 its simple maths i guess



But the deal is only for 150? look at the Argument starters post he stated 200 jf-17 in 2 years... read the full argument before u try to corner me....




hasnain0099 said:


> they'll be going home.....no extra money on them.....



well read the #314 post, its stated 80 ROSE mirage.




hasnain0099 said:


> did i say this????????????.....don't expect such things from me boy



Again read from the start of this discussion where your country men say f-7 is equal to 4th gen plane and can fight any 4th gen aircraft... read from page 21 post #314




hasnain0099 said:


> are you portaying IAF as "pagal nau-daulatiya?". And I have asked for a link mate



On what issue do u need link, to confirm production in India or the number of production? Iam ready to give u link




hasnain0099 said:


> Its not worth arguing with you boy......I give up.....



Well Iam not willing to continue with you either..... U read half of the issue discussed and jump in, which is not fair...

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## jagjitnatt

Lets face it. PAF right now has nothing that can be enough for MRCA. J10 won't be enough too. J-XX will take time and I seriously don't consider a chinese plane super advanced on tech. If Pak was working on it, I could have expected some western high tech slapped in, but not from china. 

Some good SAMs maybe.

Also all those thinking about 200 JF-17s in a couple of years, please take some "Give me some brains" pill. JF-17 will be inducted 20-30 ac per year. It will take 7-8 years to get them in such numbers. 

Other than F16, JF 17, and some upgraded ROSE PAF fleet is too old and obsolete.

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## chantpapipart2

Forget about MRCA, first you need to counter 280 Sukhoi 30mki. Good enough for your 150 JF17+70 F16+35 J10( 255 a/c)


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## aks

LCA Tejas said:


> Wow.... Expectations are high from a second gen aircraft, may your patriotism burn like this forever....  but to handle your F-7 pg's we have fire and forget stones which even a child can throw from terrace hitting an incoming F-7 of yours



f7 is 5th generation stealth fighter how can u handle it


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## aks

sab said:


> Man, do you know you are the biggest troll in this thread.
> 
> If old Mirage III/V are eq to 4th gen then so is Mig Bison.
> By the time all 200 JF-17 will be inducted, Indian will also get their 70-80% of MMRCA ,LCA and probably some PAK-FA too. And full of 280 Su-MKI will be inducted.
> Before writing your crap you should have consulted with senior pakistani members about induction plan of JF17. That would have made you less loughing stock.



pakistan is going to induct 900 jf17s , 800 j10b , 700 j-xx , 600 mirage 2-09.. 500 f35


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## aks

chantpapipart2 said:


> Forget about MRCA, first you need to counter 280 Sukhoi 30mki. Good enough for your 150 JF17+70 F16+35 J10( 255 a/c)




ur 280 su 30 mki have to face china n pakistan  do u think they are enough for both countries which are having one of biggest armed forces


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## S.U.R.B.

aks said:


> f7 is 5th generation stealth fighter how can u handle it


Well buddy i don't know about the fighter ( F-7pg),the *pilot* surely will be 5th generation because it requires a lot of courage to intercept an incoming missile.

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## aks

S.U.R.B. said:


> Well buddy i don't know about the fighter ( F-7pg),the *pilot* surely will be 5th generation because it requires a lot of courage to intercept an incoming missile.



 yeah we got 5th generation pilots


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## chantpapipart2

aks said:


> ur 280 su 30 mki have to face china n pakistan  do u think they are enough for both countries which are having one of biggest armed forces



Ohh really... in that case, do you know a giant nation called Russia??? 

By the way, you are high on my *ignore list*


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## aks

chantpapipart2 said:


> Ohh really... in that case, do you know a giant nation called Russia???
> 
> By the way, you are high on my *ignore list*



do u think russians will come for u  time has change now mighty power china is way power ful then russia now


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## chantpapipart2

aks said:


> do u think russians will come for u  time has change now mighty power china is way power ful then russia now


Do you think china will come for you

Use google and check russia and china....


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## equiliz3r

aks said:


> ur 280 su 30 mki have to face china n pakistan  do u think they are enough for both countries which are having one of biggest armed forces




mate you are going offtopic.

but on ur post China will not side with Pakistan if Pakistan attacked India. Because Big brother of India and China will not let it happen


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## aks

chantpapipart2 said:


> Do you think china will come for you
> 
> Use google and check russia and china....



remember 1962 u indian guys  russian cant afford war  they cant destroy them selves again just for u ppl lol


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## jagjitnatt

chantpapipart2 said:


> Do you think china will come for you
> 
> Use google and check russia and china....



Let them think what they wanna think. They've been duped in the past for the same thinking. They are heading towards the same thing.


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## equiliz3r

chantpapipart2 said:


> Do you think china will come for you
> 
> Use google and check russia and china....



ignore him mate..................otherwise you might also get banned along with him

Report him and move on


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## aks

equiliz3r said:


> mate you are going offtopic.
> 
> but on ur post China will not side with Pakistan if Pakistan attacked India. Because Big brother of India and China will not let it happen



if war broke down china will help us coz indian are also their enemy


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## jagjitnatt

aks said:


> remember 1962 u indian guys  russian cant afford war  they cant destroy them selves again just for u ppl lol



remember 65,71,99. Chinese didn't even give discount on hardware, forget intervening.


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## aks

jagjitnatt said:


> remember 65,71,99. Chinese didn't even give discount on hardware, forget intervening.



remember chinese every time provided us weapons


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## yuba

aks said:


> if war broke down china will help us coz indian are also their enemy



like they did in the past wars why would they intervene


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## IndianOcean

aks said:


> if war broke down china will help us coz indian are also their enemy



Then where did they go when India was butchering in 1971 and Kargil war?


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## aks

yuba said:


> like they did in the past wars why would they intervene



 lets talk about answer of paf to mrca


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## equiliz3r

aks said:


> if war broke down china will help us coz indian are also their enemy


goooossshhhh!!!!

will you stay on topic plz.

and for ur kind info..................China is not enemy of India.
Russia is still worlds top most military power

stop trolling and stick to topic


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## aks

IndianOcean said:


> Then where did they go when India was butchering in 1971 and Kargil war?



lol 1971 war was on eastern boders where indians took advantage of internal problems of pakistan most coward indian army n east pakistan was surrounded by indian territory there was no supply line for east pak

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## aks

equiliz3r said:


> goooossshhhh!!!!
> 
> will you stay on topic plz.
> 
> and for ur kind info..................China is not enemy of India.
> Russia is still worlds top most military power
> 
> stop trolling and stick to topic



lol  russians are top military power  which was destroyed in afghanistan  chinese didnt loose any war since there independence

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## jagjitnatt

aks said:


> lol 1971 war was on eastern boders where indians took advantage of internal problems of pakistan most coward indian army n east pakistan was surrounded by indian territory there was no supply line for east pak



so that should have been easier for china to intervene. But did they?


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## chantpapipart2

aks said:


> lol 1971 war was on eastern boders where indians took advantage of internal problems of pakistan most coward indian army n east pakistan was surrounded by indian territory there was no supply line for east pak



Whatever.. at the end of the day, the only thing that matter is result.
In next war you will say, we had internal problems due to TTP and WoT. We have hostile Afghans and Iran in the west and India in the east. India will block your naval supply lines and result will be same.

good.. I have provided you excuses for next the war so you don't need to work hard...have fun

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## aks

chantpapipart2 said:


> Whatever.. at the end of the day, the only thing that matter is result.
> In next war you will say, we had internal problems due to TTP and WoT. We have hostile Afghans and Iran in the west and India in the east. India will block your naval supply lines and result will be same.
> 
> good.. I have provided you excuses for next the war so you don't need to work hard...have fun



this time we dont need any war indians already have huge poverty bomb inside it which will bang them

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## equiliz3r

aks said:


> this time we dont need any war indians already have huge poverty bomb inside it which will bang them




trolling at its best................now poverty bomb comes in


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## yuba

aks said:


> this time we dont need any war indians already have huge poverty bomb inside it which will bang them



i dont understand you you talk about poverty in india but you guys are the ones going around the world with begging bowls


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## aks

equiliz3r said:


> trolling at its best................now poverty bomb comes in



so u wana say indians dnt have 800 million poor ppl which are living on less then 2 dollars a day 

u talking about TTP which are few in numbers u forgeting naxals n other freedom fighters of india which are in millions


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## aks

yuba said:


> i dont understand you you talk about poverty in india but you guys are the ones going around the world with begging bowls



we are not begging we are fighting war against terrorism which destroyed our whole economy .. we got damage of more than 38 billion dollars its responsibility of other nations to support us


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## su-47

You know this is why members here are such perfect suckers. A troll offers the bait, and presto.....hook, line and sinker! The thread is completely derailed and the purpose of the discussion is gone.

Can we get back to topic now? And please ignore the trolls


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## S.U.R.B.

chantpapipart2 said:


> India will block your naval supply lines and result will be same.


When did in the past indian navy caused the blockade of Karachi and port qasim?Good plans for future war.Well you will need to include Gawadar as well.BLA is still unable to convince at least 3&#37; of Baloch population which is the smallest province of Pakistan _population_ vise.And uncle Sam won't be coming for help for their new strategic partner because they can't afford another front and that too involving Pakistan.


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## aks

su-47 said:


> You know this is why members here are such perfect suckers. A troll offers the bait, and presto.....hook, line and sinker! The thread is completely derailed and the purpose of the discussion is gone.
> 
> Can we get back to topic now? And please ignore the trolls



yeah we can back to topic by bringing 250 indian FGFA's


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## Mani2020

*aks*i was eagerly w8ing for your coments buddy

and everybody the discussion is getting diverted,this topic is about PAF possible answer to MRCA not about what happend in 1971,its done and dusted,n for indians every day is not a sunday ,be back on track and discuss about the real topic


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## shanixee

MZUBAIR said:


> Botton Line is India is still planning for MRCA....so no need to panic
> *ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has deferred the purchase of state of the art fighter J-10 planes from China till test flights.*
> 
> Defence sources told Online Monday Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was taking interest in acquisition of state of the art J-10 fighter planes from China. Air Chief Marshall, Rao Qamar Suleman however during his briefing to the members of senate committee on defence told no formal decision had been taken so far to purchase these planes. &#65533;We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF &#65533;, he remarked.
> 
> Sources told PAF was facing lack of funds problem in the wake of tough economic situation. Therefore, PAF was completing its ongoing projects and these would be completed in time.However a clear decision with reference to J-10 planes would be made after their induction in Chinese air fleet and their performance in test flights.



THEIR ANSWER TO INDIAN MRCA WILL BE CRYING MOTHERS AND TEARS AND BLAMMING USA AND ANY1 THEY FIND NEAR THEM THEY CAN PUT BLAME ON.....INDIA IS GATHERING ITSELF FOR WAR AND OUR AIRFORCE IS MAKING CHOCES AS IF ALL COUNTRIES ARE READY TO SELL THEM. AND CHINA IS THE LEAST THEY WANT...we laugh at indians that they delay things rather then looking in our own...we hve not yet decided that which fighter we will buy....jf17 squadren waas spose to be ready in mid 2008 now end 2010.


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## Mani2020

shanixee said:


> THEIR ANSWER TO INDIAN MRCA WILL BE CRYING MOTHERS AND TEARS AND BLAMMING USA AND ANY1 THEY FIND NEAR THEM THEY CAN PUT BLAME ON.....INDIA IS GATHERING ITSELF FOR WAR AND OUR AIRFORCE IS MAKING CHOCES AS IF ALL COUNTRIES ARE READY TO SELL THEM. AND CHINA IS THE LEAST THEY WANT...we laugh at indians that they delay things rather then looking in our own...we hve not yet decided that which fighter we will buy....jf17 squadren waas spose to be ready in mid 2008 now end 2010.



can u plz tell me on which date this article was published ?


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## su-47

Ok, here is what i think Pakistan should do to counter Indian MMRCA:

1) Increase Air Defence: This goes without saying. I remember stories of how Indian MiG-25s flew uninterrupted over Pak territory. So current Pak air defence is lacking. Pak can try get advanced Air Defence Systems from China (S-400) or USA (PAC-3). This will limit effectiveness of MMRCA aircraft

2) Arrange for leasing: PAF should arrange an agreement to try lease aircraft from friendly nations in time of war. I dunno to what degree this will work, but since Pak has good relations with many Arab nations and most of them operate quality aircraft, this can bring some needed quality into PAF. But logistics might be a problem.

3) Invest more money in defence spending, and try get some high quality aircraft like F-16 block 60, F-35 or Gripen NG (I mention these since PAF almost always operate Single engined fighters). Effectiveness of J-10 is subject to speculation (I can't comment on this, since most J-10 info is classified). But if upgraded J-10 proves to be equal to or superior to F-16 blk 52, then they might do as well. But this option is not really viable unless Pak economy picks up. 

4) Devise a plan to neutralise Indian fighters: Like air strikes on Indian airfields. Again success will depend on execution of the plan. 

I think best will be a combination of all the above 4. but it will require some seriosu investment

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## Mani2020

i thnk we must purchase Suzuki fx cars fit them with a WS-10 engine load some missiles on them,induct them in large number ,make them fly by ussing hundreds of balloons and then blast them in enemy's territory coz with our budget ths is the best option we can utilize

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

hahaha ..... dear brother don,t be so much frustrated ....


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## S.U.R.B.

Mani2020 said:


> i thnk we must purchase Suzuki fx cars fit them with a WS-10 engine load some missiles on them,induct them in large number ,make them fly by ussing hundreds of balloons and then blast them in enemy's territory coz with our budget ths is the best option we can utilize



You forgot to attach the wings and rudders.Then these jet cars will look nice as well
Just for the sake of an idea.
What if we destroy all enemy forward bases with missile strikes(although we will have to counter s300 but that too will be on limited occasions) then most of the jets will be low on gas already before they wanna start their operation in Pakistan.


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## Mani2020

S.U.R.B. said:


> You forgot to attach the wings and rudders.Then these jet cars will look nice as well
> Just for the sake of an idea.
> What if we destroy all enemy forward bases with missile strikes(although we will have to counter s300 but that too will be on limited occasions) then most of the jets will be low on gas already before they wanna start their operation in Pakistan.



dun forget that balloons are much cheaper than wings .......n we cant afford them


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## S.U.R.B.

Mani2020 said:


> dun forget that balloons are much cheaper than wings .......n we cant afford them


Well then ballons are also not reliable.What if our super fighter jet car came back with the wind
What will we name them economo, suzujet


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## pakpower

Yaar don't make fun of Pakistan's credibility at least thanks.


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> i thnk we must purchase Suzuki fx cars fit them with a WS-10 engine load some missiles on them,induct them in large number ,make them fly by ussing hundreds of balloons and then blast them in enemy's territory coz with our budget ths is the best option we can utilize



lols....reminds me of wacky races


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## freddiemaize

Muradk said:


> Russians will sell there *own mothers *for the right price. Its all comes to the top brass someone needs to put pressure to get J-11.
> J-10 is good no doubt but you cant compare lavi project vs J-11, J-11 is to superior. Have one SQD in Kamra one in Karachi and we are covered pretty much.



What the hell is this? I'm sure this is an international fourm, is it not?


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## freddiemaize

I went through most of the post in this thread and found it very intersting. 

PAK (or should I say Pakistan) should do nothing at all, by which means, IAF (or should I say India) will not attack/bother them. So, let IAF do whatever they want. Remain calm and Pakistan is in no harm at all


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## DESERT FIGHTER

freddiemaize said:


> I went through most of the post in this thread and found it very intersting.
> 
> PAK (or should I say Pakistan) should do nothing at all, by which means, IAF (or should I say India) will not attack/bother them. So, let IAF do whatever they want. Remain calm and Pakistan is in no harm at all



Nah i think we should induct some sabers to do the job? shoot 5 indians in 1 minutes and get over with it


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## freddiemaize

>>shoot 5 indians

Kids is it?... Change your attitude...


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## Dark Angel

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Nah i think we should induct some sabers to do the job? shoot 5 indians in 1 minutes and get over with it




yeah right atleast someone is being honest, with the kind of $ PAF has right now that seems to be the best option


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## DESERT FIGHTER

freddiemaize said:


> >>shoot 5 indians
> 
> Kids is it?... Change your attitude...



Maybe in india jets are flown by kids
Who are u to tell me?my mamu


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## Mani2020

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Nah i think we should induct some sabers to do the job? shoot 5 indians in 1 minutes and get over with it



dun worry then the IAF will come on their BAJAJ bikes lol led by their Prime minister on three wheeler


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## Mani2020

pakpower said:


> Yaar don't make fun of Pakistan's credibility at least thanks.



brother we are not making fun of PAKISTAN rather our leaders are making fun of this whole nation ...if a single person from general public says a single word against Pakistan v all stood up against him but when our corrupt leaders are looting our wealth and making fun of Pakistan infront of whole world no one stands up? r we dead souls???


Sorry for going off topic but cant resist myself


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## Mani2020

S.U.R.B. said:


> Well then ballons are also not reliable.What if our super fighter jet car came back with the wind
> What will we name them economo, suzujet



Szu superjet will b a stealth aircraft we will use balloons instead of wings and rudders to reduce weight so enemy radars cant detect them ....man understand the logic lol


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## nomi007

i think we purchase F-15E strike eagle or Saab gripen same under tot.


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## farhan_9909

f-15 Silent eagle best option

bt it would be better if we join J-xx program rather then buying any american aircraft


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## Storm Force

F15 Silent Eagle would be a deadly addition. 

But chances of USA selling them to Pakistan are virtually nil


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## Kompromat

Storm Force said:


> F15 Silent Eagle would be a deadly addition.
> 
> But chances of USA selling them to Pakistan are virtually nil



Infact the issue with Buying silent Eagle is not that if US will sell them To Pakistan or not the issue is the lack of trust between two countries and lack of Funds from Pakistan side.

We have been flying American built machines for over 60 years , where as India is yet to fly one.

We have had top of the Line US built fighters which US was using itself at that time.

F-86 sabre
F-104 
F-16's
C-130's
T-37's
F-16C/D

F/A 18 Hornet was offered to Pakistan But we Rejected it.
F-20 Tiger shark.







If we want to buy F-15 silent Eagle there would be no opposition from US but the issues are those that i stated above.

Regards:

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## Quwa

LCA Tejas said:


> When You all Are discussing Possible answers here, India is already Selecting its fighters, do You think Pakistan will spend A few $ Countering each and every weapon we make or Buy??
> 
> Can Pakistan Afford to even counter Indian Developments???? The Answer is Big *-NO-*


To be frank, India was supposedly "already selecting its fighters" for its '126' requirement _before_ I joined high school...and now...I'm finishing my bachelors degree. Granted the MRCA will be a credible threat and perhaps even deterrence to a preemptive offensive by Pakistan...but the same will hold true for PAF's arsenal of FC-20, F-16 and JF-17 against IAF. 

The Chinese now have some good birds to sell against Russian/Western goods, get over it.

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## Quwa

LCA Tejas said:


> Hey Iam Not here to troll, if you dont like What i said, ignore it... there are other potential readers who can say if Pakistan can afford it or not.... And its not that I dont know to Give your Jaw Breaking answer, but its only that if you do the same its argument, and If I do, Its a troll.....


That had *nothing* to do with my point...which was simply stating that (a) PAF has already selected its set of top-tier 4+/4.5 gen fighters - F-16 & FC-20 - and that (b) IAF is in fact the one still in the process of "deciding", and has been "deciding" since at least 2003-2004. By the end of this year, the PAF will have inducted two new fighter types, two AEW&C types, refueling aircraft, and acquire a range of new capabilities such as precision ground strike and data-link interface. The urgency of IAF's acquisitions was far more threatening in 2004 when I was in Grade 9, than it will be in Fall 2010 as I start law school.

In any case, the PAF's counter to IAF's MRCA will be a variant of J-10B, and like it or not, China's current line of fighters are sufficient in their performance and technology to assume this vital task. PAF has already lined up its next fighter (FC-20), and there are now reports about it seeking as many as 150 of these aircraft. That said, the PAF also has the option to pursue additional upgrades of its F-16s in the form of perhaps AESA radars (such as SABR and RACR), or next-gen ECM/EW suites, etc in the next decade or so.

I think we all need to accept that IAF fighters such as SU-30MKI and MRCA are not invincible, nor are they guided by a magical fairy that will infinitely make them superior to *anything* PAF fields. Accept the reality that PAF has finally treaded itself into the stable position of thwarting IAF air dominance in the region. Yes Pakistan has financial troubles, but don't make it to seem that it is destitute - otherwise the aforementioned inductions will not be taking place. And please, don't cut with me crap about "American aid'...BS...aid money to Pakistan cannot possibly cover the scale of acquisitions in the form of subsystems and training needed to operationalize ALL the above.

PS: If you think I am a Pakistani patriot, then you're dead wrong...some of the senior most members here will be familiar with my notoriety of being critical about Pakistan's present establishment, the role of its military, its relationship with U.S. and China, and even at times its founders. That said, I do have enough research and knowledge of the PAF under my belt to tell you that it is indeed a very professional *and* contemporary organization. And finally, get over your bias (latent or active) of Chinese equipment...

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## Manticore

LCA Tejas said:


> When You all Are discussing Possible answers here, India is already Selecting its fighters, do You think Pakistan will spend A few $ Countering each and every weapon we make or Buy??
> 
> Can Pakistan Afford to even counter Indian Developments???? The Answer is Big *-NO-*



buying lavishly -- and buying intelligently to counter it are 2 seperate things.-- 

counties talk about a lavish missile shield, pak went for relatively low cost yet deadly missile development project.

with our awacs supported aircrafts in our own airspace , trust me we are fine! -- we know our airspace , we know our terrain , our plus points -- we know how to exploit them , not only with sams but different menouvres including anti bvr menouveres which we are doing for years plus cruise missiles loaded to most of our aircrafts etc

if the mrca was a done deal 5 years back , then pak had a problem , particularly in offencive stategy--paf went for low teck fc1 alongwith j10a

the indian mrca deal - it got delayed-- paf knew what aircrafts india is looking for-- 

paf drew its requirements , upgraded the fc1 to jf17 which can easily be pitted against blk30 f16 , if not blk 40 alongwith mirage2000 , early mig29 --- instead of inducting j10a , came up with fc20 -- tot transfer was also in the news those days--

do some research while trolling here -- when you eventually get your mrca , our jf17 blk 2 alongwith fc20 will already be in our skies


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## LCA Tejas

Mark Sien said:


> That had *nothing* to do with my point...which was simply stating that (a) PAF has already selected its set of top-tier 4+/4.5 gen fighters - F-16 & FC-20 - and that IAF is in fact the one still in the process of "deciding", and has been "deciding" since at least 2003-2004.



May I know what are those top 4.5 gen aircrafts which PAF selected
F-16 and Jf-17 are getting Inducted much slower combined to the rate at which our suk 30 is getting Inducted.F-16 and FC-20 are not 4.5 gen aircrafts...



Mark Sien said:


> In any case, the PAF's counter to IAF's MRCA will be a variant of J-10B, and like it or not, China's current line of fighters are sufficient in their performance and technology for this vital task. PAF has already lined up its next fighter (FC-20), and there are now reports about it seeking as many as 150 of these aircraft . That said, the PAF also has the option to pursue additional upgrades of its F-16s in the form of perhaps AESA radars (such as SABR and RACR), or next-gen ECM/EW suites, etc in the next decade or so.



J-10 even if offered ,can pakistan afford it With such a fragile economy and Or if its on sellers credit everyone can afford, Iam asking Pakistans capability to buy not lend hands....And reports do come and go, there were even reports that USA is willing to Offer F-35's to India. Does that mean India is getting ready to buy them??? And IAF has already lined up for MMRCA ,FGFA,LCAMK1 and mk2 If you ask me....

And Sukhoi 30 is already undergoing Upgrades, Smart skin and AESA radars are the two vital Upgrades in it, 



Mark Sien said:


> I think we all need to accept that IAF fighters such as SU-30MKI and MRCA are not invincible, nor are they guided by a magical fairy that will infinitely make them superior to *anything* PAF fields. Fact of the matter is, the PAF has finally treaded itself into the stable position of thwarting IAF air dominance in the region.



PAF cannot dream of countering Indian air superiority fighters such as Suk 30 MKI,Mig 29,LCA tejas,MMRCA and FGFA with Some of your J-10B,JF-17 and F-16, And India is going for both quality and Quantity, Pakistan has Limitations and India dosent.... Pakistan at this Point of time cannot go for twin engined aircrafts, as its management cost will trigger Your fun Crisis....

And More over we are not only buying but also have Detailed projects for Our Own R&D....


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## Kompromat

LCA Tejas said:


> When You all Are discussing Possible answers here, India is already Selecting its fighters, do You think Pakistan will spend A few $ Countering each and every weapon we make or Buy??
> 
> Can Pakistan Afford to even counter Indian Developments???? The Answer is Big *-NO-*



i agree with your post to a certain extent.

Here is my view.

F-16A/B (MLU M3 Upgrade = Block 52 standard)

F-16C/D Block 52+

To counter MKI - MiG -29 Upgrades-MMRCA

Desired Fighters : 100 (According to My sources in PAF)
Fielding Date: By 2013-2014

FC-20: J-10B variant specifically Designed and Upgraded for PAF Needs to Counter MKI and MMRCA .

It may have an AESA Radar , CFT's , RIFRP , More weapons stations , WS-10 Engine , Reduced RCS , DSI's etc , in other words tailored to Match anything IAF fields.

Desired Numbers: 150
Deliveries from : 2013-2014

JF-17 Thunder: 3 Blocks to Counter LCA and Migs .
Desired Numbers: 350

Total strength: 600+ Air crafts. 

Moreover , Y-8 AWACS , SAAB-2000 Erie , IL-76 refulers , SPADA -2000 SAMs , HQ-09E.

Its Enough to Counter IAF since we have a defensive doctrine for the Air Force.

All we need to worry about is T-50.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*LCA Tejas- Stop trolling and flaming.*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

LCA Tejas said:


> *
> PAF cannot dream of countering Indian air superiority fighters* such as Suk 30 MKI,Mig 29,LCA tejas,MMRCA and FGFA with Some of your J-10B,JF-17 and F-16,



Not including the FGFA (wait till testing is over and IOC issued), why not?

Though I am pretty sure this question has been asked and answered several times on multiple threads.


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## Quwa

LCA Tejas said:


> May I know what are those top 4.5 gen aircrafts which PAF selected
> F-16 and Jf-17 are getting Inducted much slower combined to the rate at which our suk 30 is getting Inducted.F-16 and FC-20 are not 4.5 gen aircrafts...


Please tell me what fundamental systems a 4.5. generation fighter has that FC-20/F-16 wouldn't? Lets hear it, I was waiting to see what special features these 4.5 gen fighters have that no PAF fighter (surprise surprise) could ever have. Let us finally see how PAF manages to fall through the cracks of technology's advances, and let us finally see the wisdom and irony of how contemporary tech equates to obsolesce in PAF's hands.


> J-10 even if offered ,can pakistan afford it With such a fragile economy and Or if its on sellers credit everyone can afford, Iam asking Pakistans capability to buy not lend hands....And reports do come and go, there were even reports that USA is willing to Offer F-35's to India. Does that mean India is getting ready to buy them??? And IAF has already lined up for MMRCA ,FGFA,LCAMK1 and mk2 If you ask me....


Unlike the F-35 offer to India, PAF has had a vested hand of some sort within the J-10B program. Whether it actually funded the development or set the specifications irrelevant, what is actually known present is that J-10B is directed towards the PAF. I doubt anyone would actually invest money, time and manpower into a program for a specific customer if it was known that the customer cannot in its present form afford the system. 

Yes, PAF cannot acquire J-10B in the short and immediate term - but I doubt many forces can given the nature of PAF's work these days, ranging from engaging in heavy COIN operations to inducting large-scale systems and revamping its communication and information management & transfer systems.


> And Sukhoi 30 is already undergoing Upgrades, Smart skin and AESA radars are the two vital Upgrades in it,


So is it 4.5 generation or what?


> PAF cannot dream of countering Indian air superiority fighters such as Suk 30 MKI,Mig 29,LCA tejas,MMRCA and FGFA with Some of your J-10B,JF-17 and F-16, And India is going for both quality and Quantity, Pakistan has Limitations and India dosent.... Pakistan at this Point of time cannot go for twin engined aircrafts, as its management cost will trigger Your fun Crisis....


Again, show us some fundamental differences between MKI/MiG-29/MMRCA/LCA and the F-16/FC-20/JF-17. When I mean fundamental, I actually want to see how the IAF set of aircraft trump their PAF equivalents in specific terms. General statements are useless, show us some specific details. As for FGFA, that fighter is still under development and years away from initial induction...IAF hasn't even begun inducting MMRCA and is barely scraping through with LCA...anything quick would imply that FGFA can enter service before MMRCA, which I think we can both agree is ridiculous.

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## LCA Tejas

ANTIBODY said:


> buying lavishly -- and buying intelligently to counter it are 2 seperate things.--



Thats why we are taking 4-5 years deciding what is the best package for IAF in MMRCA, and that too by not Delaying the pace of Our R&D and production/Purchase of Suk 30 MKI



ANTIBODY said:


> counties talk about a lavish missile shield, pak went for relatively low cost yet deadly missile development project.



Anything with more range,Speed,Deadliness Is Not lavish, its called Intelligence, and A good R&D and better Infrastructure, no one Buys weapons for Lavishness.



ANTIBODY said:


> with our awacs supported aircrafts in our own airspace , trust me we are fine! -- we know our airspace , we know our terrain , our plus points -- we know how to exploit them , not only with sams but different menouvres including anti bvr menouveres which we are doing for years plus cruise missiles loaded to most of our aircrafts etc



So?? the point is, Our Sukhoi 30 MKI by itself can act as an AWAC fighter..... You are fine or not, and thats not my Issue.... the issue is Speculation and based on that creating a virtual fight over the machines which we are buying and the machines which People in Pakistan's cyber world are willing to buy..

And When the ballistic missile is flying over you, You will wish that if Our govt had spent of ABM's



ANTIBODY said:


> if the mrca was a done deal 5 years back , then pak had a problem , particularly in offencive stategy--paf went for low teck fc1 alongwith j10a



Nop, If we had bought MMRCA before 5 years, it would have been a loss, as We arw bing offered better packages now, and we would Speed up our Induction, As HAL Kanpur and Bangalore are ready for this....



ANTIBODY said:


> the indian mrca deal - it got delayed-- paf knew what aircrafts india is looking for--



And Still cannot do Anything about it....



ANTIBODY said:


> paf drew its requirements , upgraded the fc1 to jf17 which can easily be pitted against blk30 f16 , if not blk 40 alongwith mirage2000 , early mig29 --- instead of inducting j10a , came up with fc20 -- tot transfer was also in the news those days--



And we doubled the speed of Induction of Suk 30 MKI, isnt that smarter?



ANTIBODY said:


> do some research while trolling here -- when you eventually get your mrca , our jf17 blk 2 alongwith fc20 will already be in our skies



By the time You Jf-17's blk 2 flies Sukhoi 30 Upgraded would be ready.... and FC-20?? Is pakistan buying J-10? any contracts Signed???


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## Manticore

LCA Tejas said:


> May I know what are those top 4.5 gen aircrafts which PAF selected
> F-16 and Jf-17 are getting Inducted much slower combined to the rate at which our suk 30 is getting Inducted.F-16 and FC-20 are not 4.5 gen aircrafts...
> 
> 
> 
> J-10 even if offered ,can pakistan afford it With such a fragile economy and Or if its on sellers credit everyone can afford, Iam asking Pakistans capability to buy not lend hands....And reports do come and go, there were even reports that USA is willing to Offer F-35's to India. Does that mean India is getting ready to buy them??? And IAF has already lined up for MMRCA ,FGFA,LCAMK1 and mk2 If you ask me....
> 
> And Sukhoi 30 is already undergoing Upgrades, Smart skin and AESA radars are the two vital Upgrades in it,
> 
> 
> 
> PAF cannot dream of countering Indian air superiority fighters such as Suk 30 MKI,Mig 29,LCA tejas,MMRCA and FGFA with Some of your J-10B,JF-17 and F-16, And India is going for both quality and Quantity, Pakistan has Limitations and India dosent.... Pakistan at this Point of time cannot go for twin engined aircrafts, as its management cost will trigger Your fun Crisis....
> 
> And More over we are not only buying but also have Detailed projects for Our Own R&D....








''LCA TEGAS---Nop, If we had bought MMRCA before 5 years, it would have been a loss, as We arw bing offered better packages now, and we would Speed up our Induction, As HAL Kanpur and Bangalore are ready for this....''

well , when the same token is used by paf , you say paf hasent done anything

jf17 will be coproduced for paf in 2 countries , plus its output will increase on both 2 assembly lines aswell.

the reason the production is relatively slow is not due to financial constraints , rather upgrading the exhisting j10b even further -- check j10b aesa radar structural changes in j10 airframe----- 

The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy



> he J-10B appears as the next iteration of China's vaunted 4th Generation fighter and looks to take the J-10 to the *4.5 Generation level.
> *
> The differences that have been identified from the earlier J-10 include a DSI intake, similar to the one on the FC-1/JF-17.
> The nose is now oval, more similar to an F-16's and is slightly canted downwards.
> The wide angle HUD featured on the J-11Bs seem to have also appeared on the J-10B.
> An IRST similar to the J-11Bs also feature on top of the nose. *Slanted radome paint along with some of the other features suggest an AESA radar. *



whats your definition of 4.5 gen aircrafts? im curious-

do u know anything about fc20? -- NO -- so dont talk about a jet which u dont know of-- get info from our f16 pilots who are flying it and are an integral part of upgrading and testing phase of j10b

j10a was also pitted against su27-- go to chinese boards youll get the results


> The PLAAF expects to have 50 J-10s by 2005. The J-10, displayed at an air show in May, has received rave reviews from the pilots flying them. Wing Commander Wang Yunhui, a special-grade Su-27 pilot, praised J-10 aircraft and admitted, "During three rounds of "dog fight" in the mid-air, his Su-27 had lost to a J-10 fighter" (Hong Kong Sing Tao Jih Pao 29 May).


Rising Airpower: The People's Liberation Army Air Force in the Early 21st Century

a year ago you were sceptical about our blk 50 , awacs induction becuase of the same 'financial constaints'
dont burden your mind with our financial problems

if an american f117 can be downed by relatively low tech armies , then your jets are not invincible at all


---im done e feeding this troll---


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## Kompromat

*LCA Tejas* FGFA Question:

If you think that FGFA is going to challenge our national security or when having FGFA in arsenal would give you a capability to attack Pakistan and we wont be able to counter it , i must have to say you are living in some stupid paradise .

According to US reports Chinese are likely to field their JXX Stealth platform around 2016.

India wont be getting T-50 by 2018 neither Russians because that would be the year India would start getting deliveries which may complete in 5 years time , which means 2023.

Till that time PAF would have its Fifth generation platform , mark my words.

* sorry for feeding the troll.


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## LCA Tejas

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *LCA Tejas- Stop trolling and flaming.*



I did not troll.... See my Post here, I just presented my view and asked a question can Pakistan afford to Counter each and every equipment we procure.....Although I stop it.... *Sorry Mod*....


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## Quwa

Black Blood said:


> *LCA Tejas* FGFA Question:
> 
> If you think that FGFA is going to challenge our national security or when having FGFA in arsenal would give you a capability to attack Pakistan and we wont be able to counter it , i must have to say you are living in some stupid paradise .
> 
> According to US reports Chinese are likely to field their JXX Stealth platform around 2016.
> 
> India wont be getting T-50 by 2018 neither Russians because that would be the year India would start getting deliveries which may complete in 5 years time , which means 2023.
> 
> Till that time PAF would have its Fifth generation platform , mark my words.
> 
> * sorry for feeding the troll.


There are reports of China initializing the development of a medium-weight 5th generation fighter to supplement its J-20. Sounds like a possible door PAF could enter in terms of 5th.gen fighters.



> It is increasingly apparent that since the early 1990s China has also been simultaneously developing a 5th generation combat aircraft, a prototype of which may fly in 2010 or 2011. Chinese aerospace officials hint it will be as capable as the U.S. Lockheed Martin F-22A. There are also hints of interest in smaller medium weight 5th generation fighters, raising the possibility of a Hi-Lo 5th generation fighter mix.



LINK

As for J-10B:


> At the end of 2008 Chinese reports emerged of a new variant of the J-10 testing at Chendgu, and images soon emerges of what is called the &#8220;J-10B,&#8221; which has a redesigned engine air intake, a new infrared search and tracking (IRST) device and what may be a new AESA radar. Russian sources suggest that an early Russian Phazotron Corporation AESA radar sold to China in the mid-1990s may have formed the basis for the new Chinese radar. *Some reports also suggest that the J-10B is primarily intended to meet a requirement from Pakistan. These modifications point to the J-10 having evolved rapidly toward a 4+ generation level of capability.* In 2005 a Russian estimated for the author that China might build up to 1,200 J-10s over its lifetime, while in late 2009 another Russian source stated that so far 300-400 AL-31FN engines had been purchased to support J-10 production. It is expected that Chengdu will integrate a version of the WS-10A Taihang turbofan into the J-10, while Russia hopes to sell more powerful versions of the AL-31FN.


LINK

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## LCA Tejas

Black Blood said:


> *LCA Tejas* FGFA Question:
> 
> If you think that FGFA is going to challenge our national security or when having FGFA in arsenal would give you a capability to attack Pakistan and we wont be able to counter it , i must have to say you are living in some stupid paradise .
> 
> According to US reports Chinese are likely to field their JXX Stealth platform around 2016.
> 
> India wont be getting T-50 by 2018 neither Russians because that would be the year India would start getting deliveries which may complete in 5 years time , which means 2023.
> 
> Till that time PAF would have its Fifth generation platform , mark my words.
> 
> * sorry for feeding the troll.



*Black Blood*, JXX question:

India has signed a deal for 200 FGFA and 50 PAK-FA, even if FGFA takes time we would Get PAK FA in 2018, and India is a Partner in that program 

And Development for Avionics and Designs for FGFA are in progress In ADA....

my Question to you is, Has J-XX been offered to you??? Why create a fuss that what ever chinese make are Yours Too??? And Who is living in a Stupids paradise, You or me,I am Speaking of what is going to happen, where as you are speaking of What might happen, how can these two co-Exist?

*Sorry Mod, I was Intending to stop, but this Guy Just put His hands in my mouth and Got this Out of me...*

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## Quwa

LCA Tejas said:


> Black Blood, JXX question, India has signed a deal for 200 FGFA and 50 PAK-FA, even if FGFA takes time we would Get PAK FA in 2018, and India is a Partner in that program


India will not get PAK-FA/FGFA in 2018. Not going into how Indian timelines go with LCA and MMRCA...even without hiccups, FGFA will not be ready for IAF in 2018. As for whether China offered PAF a 5th generation fighter or not is irrelevant for us. PAF was finalizing details about ZDK03 many months before there was word about China putting up its AEW&C systems on the export market. That said, we now have reputable Western analysts leaning towards the possibility that J-10B - an entire development program - was geared for PAF. So why - with all this in the background - will there be doubt over PAF pursuing a 5th generation option with China? Especially when there is now word of China developing a _second_ 5th generation fighter to serve as a mainstay in a hi/lo mix of 5th. gen fighters.

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## sms

LCA Tejas said:


> PAF cannot dream of countering Indian air superiority fighters such as Suk 30 MKI,Mig 29,LCA tejas,MMRCA and FGFA with Some of your J-10B,JF-17 and F-16, And India is going for both quality and Quantity, Pakistan has Limitations and India dosent.... Pakistan at this Point of time cannot go for twin engined aircrafts, as its management cost will trigger Your fun Crisis....
> 
> And More over we are not only buying but also have Detailed projects for Our Own R&D....



Every nation has a right to dream and keep some aspirations to achieve something. It could be economical progress, having credible offensive or defensive power or at least a deterrence. Its true that Pakistan now cannot simply go and buy hundreds of advance fighters. But they have skills, brain they will definitely go for the best option which suits their doctrine and lies with in given limitation of available funds or other resources. 

It is also true that we are not going to attack (we cannot afford it now and risk development) our neighbor at least no in near future. So they have time to recover and comeback strong once thing there (internally) are in good shape and economy picks up.


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## Kompromat

Mark Sien said:


> There are reports of China initializing the development of a medium-weight 5th generation fighter to supplement its J-20. Sounds like a possible door PAF could enter in terms of 5th.gen fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> LINK
> 
> As for J-10B:
> 
> LINK




Thanks Mark:

Some PAF sources suggest the same thing as you are doing right now.
One of my guys in PAF has been closely related to J-10A and Described FC-20 "As Capable as F-16 Block 60 , F/A-18 Super Hornet , SU-30 MKI".

As for participation is concerned , Pakistani engineers have long been in china for this program they helped Chinese in Cockpit design of J-11B too.

All i have been told with no specific details that i can post is that FC-20 is "Tailored" to meet all High tech requirements of Pakistan Air Force.

As for 5th Generation developments in China , the chinese are working on Multiple platform which means that they are not developing just one 5th generation platform but more than one .

It includes heavy class ie F-22A and medium Ie F-35 JSF.
Regards:

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## LCA Tejas

Mark Sien said:


> India will not get PAK-FA/FGFA in 2018. We've seen how Indian timelines go with LCA and MMRCA, don't assume that somehow FGFA will be the same. As for whether China offered PAF a 5th generation fighter or not is irrelevant for us. PAF was finalizing details about ZDK03 years before there was word about China putting up its AEW&C systems on the export market. That said, we have reputable Western analysts leaning towards the possibility that J-10B - an entire development program - was geared for PAF...so why should a prospective 5th generation fighter be any different all of a sudden?



Again Speculation that it might be Yours.... You guys are good at dreaming, while India is Making and Buying it, you guys Speculate that JXx will be Yours and have also Fixed the timeline of your delivery... You guys are fast Indeed


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## ptldM3

Black Blood said:


> *LCA Tejas* FGFA Question:
> 
> If you think that FGFA is going to challenge our national security or when having FGFA in arsenal would give you a capability to attack Pakistan and we wont be able to counter it , i must have to say you are living in some stupid paradise .
> 
> According to US reports Chinese are likely to field their JXX Stealth platform around 2016.
> 
> India wont be getting T-50 by 2018 neither Russians because that would be the year India would start getting deliveries which may complete in 5 years time , which means 2023.
> 
> Till that time PAF would have its Fifth generation platform , mark my words.
> 
> * sorry for feeding the troll.



Lets assume the J-XX will be feilded in 2016, the only problems is if it does get feilded it will be the first batch; further, it would likely take time to set up factories where they can quickly and officiently produce the aircraft, the problem here is that stealth aircraft are difficult and timely to produce, also the Chinese would likely fulfill their orders before they would offer any for export.


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## LCA Tejas

Let me conclude by saying this.... This thread is just pointless speculation as what can be bought... But forgetting an Important tool which pakistan lacks MONEY.... and whats the use speculating in a foum, Does it serve any purpose?


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## Kompromat

LCA Tejas said:


> *Black Blood*, JXX question:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India has signed a deal for 200 FGFA and 50 PAK-FA, even if FGFA takes time we would Get PAK FA in 2018, and India is a Partner in that program
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proof of India getting PAK-FA in 2018 Please.
> India is a 25&#37; partner in the Program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my Question to you is, Has J-XX been offered to you??? Why create a fuss that what ever chinese make are Yours Too???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> PAF will go for 5th Generation platform to counter IAF's capability and Since we know that China is building its platforms not only to meet PLAAF requirements but also to cater for export orders.
> 
> Is every Chinese Product ours ?? Yes it is.
> 
> Flashback:
> 
> F-6 Farmer -F-6 Rebuild factory PAC
> FT-05 Trainer
> K-08 Advance Jet Trainer-Co developed
> F-7P
> F-7PG
> JF-17 Thunder-Co Developed
> FC-20-TOPT
> L-15 Advance jet trainer-TOPT
> 
> Pakistan is the Biggest Defense partner of China and one has got to be a fool to believe that Pakistan wont be able to access Its latest Platform.
> 
> J-10 Being the workhorse of PLAAF is making its way to PAF the first ever country to use their mainstay fighter same is the case with L-15 Trainer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And Who is living in a Stupids paradise, You or me,I am Speaking of what is going to happen, where as you are speaking of What might happen, how can these two co-Exist?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Time will decide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sorry Mod, I was Intending to stop, but this Guy Just put His hands in my mouth and Got this Out of me...*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sorry if i did so.
Click to expand...

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## M8R

LCA Tejas It will certainly be a bad day for you when PAF shots down first SU30MKI.Your ego will go down very fast.Let's hope IAF also thinks like you that PAF cannot counter any IAF Jet.

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## Ammyy

Black Blood said:


> *LCA Tejas* FGFA Question:
> 
> If you think that FGFA is going to challenge our national security or when having FGFA in arsenal would give you a capability to attack Pakistan and we wont be able to counter it , i must have to say you are living in some stupid paradise .
> 
> According to US reports Chinese are likely to field their JXX Stealth platform around 2016.
> 
> India wont be getting T-50 by 2018 neither Russians because that would be the year India would start getting deliveries which may complete in 5 years time , which means 2023.
> 
> Till that time PAF would have its Fifth generation platform , mark my words.
> 
> * sorry for feeding the troll.



Sir, First of all when you start believe on US report ????
I dont think they are able to make Jxx before 2020 lets take it 2018 so if we go by same procedure so they need another 8 years to fully develop it . so they are able to make it in 2026 and as Pakistan is not partner in that program so who can you able to take your first aircraft before 2032 ..

I m just going by your procedure as u write in your post .


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## LCA Tejas

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;917786 said:


> LCA Tejas It will certainly be a bad day for you when PAF shots down first SU30MKI.Your ego will go down very fast.Let's hope IAF also thinks like you that PAF cannot counter any IAF Jet.



Come on I never said that..... The Only thing I said is, You cannot Have air superiority over Us in a war....


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## Ammyy

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;917786 said:


> LCA Tejas It will certainly be a bad day for you when PAF shots down first SU30MKI.Your ego will go down very fast.Let's hope IAF also thinks like you that PAF cannot counter any IAF Jet.



Day time dreams never come true.

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## MZUBAIR

LCA Tejas said:


> Let me conclude by saying this.... This thread is just pointless speculation as what can be bought*... But forgetting an Important tool which pakistan lacks MONEY*.... and whats the use speculating in a foum, Does it serve any purpose?



If PAK lacks money then how they are buying these arms



> *Major U.S. Arms Sales and Grants to Pakistan Since 2001*
> 
> Major post-2001 defense supplies provided, or soon to be provided, under FMF include:
> 
> ! *eight P-3C Orion *maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment (valued at $474 million);
> ! about *5,250 TOW anti-armor missiles *($186 million; 2,007 delivered);
> ! more than *5,600 military radio sets *($163 million);
> ! *six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars *($100 million);
> ! *six C-130E transport aircraft and their refurbishment *($76 million);
> ! *five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters *granted under EDA ($67 million);
> ! *one ex-Oliver Hazard Perry class missile frigate via EDA *($65 million);
> ! *20 AH-1F Cobra attack *helicopters via EDA ($48 million, *12 refurbished *and delivered); and
> ! *121 refurbished TOW missile launchers *($25 million).
> 
> Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:
> ! *up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft *(valued at $891 million, with $477 million of this in FMF, Pakistan currently plans to purchase 35 such kits); and
> ! *115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers *($87 million, with $53 million in FMF).
> Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:
> ! *18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 combat aircraft *(valued at $1.43 billion; none delivered to date);
> !* F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles*; *1,450 2,000-pound bombs*; *500 JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs*; and *1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits*, also for gravity bombs ($629 million);
> ! *100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles *($298 million);
> ! *500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles *($95 million); and
> !* six Phalanx Close-In Weapons System naval guns *($80 million).
> 
> While the Pentagon notified Congress on the possible transfer to Pakistan of three P-3B aircraft as EDA grants that would be modified to carry the *E-2C Hawkeye airborne early warning suite in a deal worth up to $855 million,* this effort has not progressed beyond the notification stage. Other major EDA grantssince 2001 include 14 F-16A/B combat aircraft and 39 T-37 military trainer jets. Under Coalition
> Support Funds (part of the Pentagon budget), *Pakistan has received 26 Bell 412 utility helicopters, along with related parts and maintenance, valued at $235 million*. Finally, under 1206, Frontier Corps, and Pakistan Counterinsurgency Capability Fund authorities, the United States has provided helicopter spare parts, various night vision devices, radios, body armor, helmets, first aid kits, litters, and large quantities of other individual soldier equipment.
> 
> *Source*



I quoted the source also, plz reply if u have sensable and reasonable answer else stop flaming. All we have purchase only from USA more then 5 Billion +.......and u there are more weapons purchased from France, China ,Sweden Brazil etc......that also have huge cost.
So PAK bought them, if u think PAK hav no money.

Reply with responsibilitiy and logicaly else shut ur mouth

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## Quwa

LCA Tejas said:


> Again Speculation that it might be Yours.... You guys are good at dreaming, while India is Making and Buying it, you guys Speculate that JXx will be Yours and have also Fixed the timeline of your delivery... You guys are fast Indeed


So you're going to trump Richard Fisher? He is an actual paid analyst who has access to way more sources of stats and info than the vast majority of us here...and he said "_Some reports also suggest that the J-10B is primarily intended to meet a requirement from Pakistan. These modifications point to the J-10 having evolved rapidly toward a 4+ generation level of capability."_ It is funny how the discussion shifted from FC-20 being/not being a 4+/4.5 generation fighter to FGFA and 5th. generation fighters...Indian point-dodging magic at work.

You know... I was "speculating" back in 2004-2005 that PAF will get Block-52 F-16s...I was "speculating" only in 2007 that FC-20 will be a heavy upgraded variant of J-10. People familiar with my "speculations" will testify as to the results today...why? Because my speculations are based on what real analysts have said, such as Richard Fisher, and some deductive reasoning - nothing out of the ordinary. Just think about it...can anyone in 2004 have imagined that PAF will be getting the F-16s with CFTs and dorsal spines? Really?

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## SomeGuy

LCA Tejas said:


> And Sukhoi 30 is already undergoing Upgrades, Smart skin and AESA radars are the two vital Upgrades in it,



Please tell me what AESA radar is going to be used to upgrade MKI?


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## Kompromat

ptldM3 said:


> Lets assume the J-XX will be feilded in 2016, the only problems is if it does get feilded it will be the first batch; further, it would likely take time to set up factories where they can quickly and officiently produce the aircraft, the problem here is that stealth aircraft are difficult and timely to produce, also the Chinese would likely fulfill their orders before they would offer any for export.



Russki its not written anywhere that we have to field our 5th gen answer to india the same year they would be fielding .

There could be a difference of few years which we wont worry about.


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## sms

LCA Tejas said:


> Come on I never said that..... The Only thing I said is, You cannot Have air superiority over Us in a war....



100% true. With in given resources Pakistan's doctrine will be focused on defensive role. I do not see that they have other option.

All post above are talking about 15 ~25 years from now hopeless

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## MZUBAIR

LCA Tejas said:


> Come on I never said that..... The Only thing I said is, You cannot Have air superiority over Us in a war....



Do u think ur MKI can cross the border and move back safly


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## Ammyy

MZUBAIR said:


> Do u think ur MKI can cross the border and move back safly



If Mkis are not able to cross border so please think about your aircrafts


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## Kompromat

LCA Tejas said:


> *aid and sellers credit if am Not wrong...If You cant deny it*, *Shut your mouth.*



Proofs ???????


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## MZUBAIR

sms said:


> 100% true. With in given resources Pakistan's doctrine will be focused on defensive role. I do not see that they have other option.
> 
> All post above are talking about 15 ~25 years from now hopeless



In war only fighter jets would not be envolved there would be missiles......that will play the role in ur terroritory........

Missiles in PAK are not for decoration, y dont u people understand this


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## LCA Tejas

Black Blood said:


> Proofs ???????



Why need proofs when You yourself know How F-16's and Jf-17's came???


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## Kompromat

DRDO said:


> If Mkis are not able to cross border so please think about your aircrafts



They can try at least

What will happen to them or to their Air bases is another question.


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## MZUBAIR

DRDO said:


> If Mkis are not able to cross border so please think about your aircrafts



Who said we would be crossing ur border........
We would be using missiles


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## Quwa

Here is a "speculation" of mine on PakDef from August 2007:


> I asked tphuang a lot of questions about J-10 (I think he may have been annoyed at one point hehe). His understanding is that PAF is interested in the the next block of J-10 currently in development in CAC - it will be test flown late this year or early next. He said we can expect airframe and structural changes along side commonly mentioned upgrades. Though I didn't ask him whether this variant could super-cruise, his view is that the J-10-series is capable of it. IMO the J-10 upgrade could more or less be considered the Super-10 fighter we've heard about on Janes and other sources. The FC-20 will have to be a solid and firm counter to the IAF MRCA, so that's my root reasoning of it being Super-10/variant of J-10 significantly superior to the current series.


J10/FC-20 and PAF doctrine


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## Kompromat

LCA Tejas said:


> Why need proofs when You yourself know How F-16's and Jf-17's came???



No i do not know how they came , provide me proofs of when exactly F-16's were aided to Pakistan.

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## MZUBAIR

LCA Tejas said:


> aid and sellers credit if am Not wrong...If You cant deny it, *Shut your mouth.*



Open ur eyes , I have also quoted the price and source which we paid ...........Stop flamming Toad

Do u think USA, France, China , Swden , Brazil are selling weapons like F-16 block 52, Saab etc as an AID or Credits.


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## Quwa

_Pakistan is also acquiring with its *own funds* eighteen new Block 52 F-16 fighter aircraft, the most advanced models of the F-16 fleet. Delivery will begin in 2010._

Remarks by Ambassador Anne W. Patterson at the F-16 Hand-Over Ceremony, Pakistan Air Force Base, Mushaf, Sargodha (07/10/2007) - U.S. Embassy Islamabad, Pakistan

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## Kompromat

MZUBAIR said:


> Open ur eyes , I have also quoted the price and source which we paid ...........Stop flamming Toad
> 
> Do u think USA, France, China , Swden , Brazil are selling weapons like F-16 block 52, Saab etc as an AID or Credits.



Maybe we are twin brothers with all of them, who knows ? mark do you know if we are twins with Brazil or Sweden ?


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## sms

MZUBAIR said:


> In war only fighter jets would not be envolved there would be missiles......that will play the role in ur terroritory........
> 
> Missiles in PAK are not for decoration, y dont u people understand this



You've lost it now. The topic of dicussion is *"PAF's possible answer to MRCA"*.
Following your argument Pakistan needs thousand of missiles. You are capable of producing/ buying lots of them. That's Pakistan's the answer for MRCA. 

Question asnswered... close the thread.


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## MZUBAIR

sms said:


> You've lost it now. The topic of dicussion is *"PAF's possible answer to MRCA"*.
> Following your argument Pakistan needs thousand of missiles. You are capable of producing/ buying lots of them. That's Pakistan's the answer for MRCA.
> 
> Question asnswered... close the thread.



Funny..........pahlay MRCA lay tu low.......
8 years passed but ur failed to understand the western technoilogy..........kasay undersand kar saktay ho sare life tu russian technology use kartay rahay ho .

Any ways we are going to have 100 block 52 F-16's by 2012 and with JF-17 Block II's with western tech would be enough for u .

Ur in selection phase and we are in production phase.
So who lost. 

Wasay itnay niukamay hain kay abhi tak 8 saal kay bad bhi aik AC descide nahi kar sakay


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## Manticore

ive updated my previous post a little bit--- but havent answered to every minute points of lca tagas , as i know the questions/accusations will continously change just to add fuel to the fire-- 

the thing that they dont understand is that now there cant be 'surgical strikes' or 'limited' nuclear war as indian chief said.... the war will quickly endup as a nuclear conflict - even if our 1 missile , wether from aircrafts or from land or water , hits india, war will be over and all the indian aircrafts cant do anything.

im in pakistan , and im not afraid of a nuclear war-- we talk of a nuclear war while having a nice cup of tea-- we are not afraid , and we know we will take our enemy with us-- weve got nothing to lose

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## Ammyy

MZUBAIR said:


> Funny..........pahlay MRCA lay tu low.......
> 8 years passed but ur failed to understand the western technoilogy..........kasay undersand kar saktay ho sare life tu russian technology use kartay rahay ho .
> 
> Any ways we are going to have 100 block 52 F-16's by 2012 and with JF-17 Block II's with western tech would be enough for u .
> 
> Ur in selection phase and we are in production phase.
> So who lost.
> 
> Wasay itnay niukamay hain kay abhi tak 8 saal kay bad bhi aik AC descide nahi kar sakay




After 100 times of request they are ready to provide you just 18 I dnt know about those 14 which are rumors and talking about 100 F16 

Ur in production phase . current jf17 which need modification before induction nothing more that a trainer ... really great .


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## MZUBAIR

DRDO said:


> After 100 times of request they are ready to provide you just 18 I dnt know about those 14 which are rumors and talking about 100 F16




Do u have single one.....? 
First get a single F-16 then laugh here........U dont have anything..only in papers 



> Ur in production phase . current jf17 which need modification before induction nothing more that a trainer ... really great .



Papay JF17 1st SQD is in AIR, Do u know what does Squadron (SQD) means.......or u have low literacy .....n ur purpose here just to flame.

Compare ur all ground support AC's with JF-17........goto JF-17 Multirole thread u will find many things.

*Source:-First Squadron of JF-17 Thunder inducted in PAF*

Oh and yeah wt abt ur LCA (Last Chance Aircraft)............still no engine and radar.





> Another major milestone was achieved when the first Squadron of JF-17 Thunder formally joined fighter aircraft fleet of Pakistan Air Force on Thursday.
> A ceremony for the formal induction of JF-17 Thunder aircraft was held at one of the PAF&#8217;s operational bases. Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force was chief guest on the occasion.
> 
> The Chief of the Air Staff addressing the Airmen congratulated the nation and the PAF personnel on the momentous occasion.
> 
> &#8220;The formal induction of JF-17 aircraft in the PAF is in line with our resolve to face all challenges with poise and self-confidence. The PAF has invested in the force multipliers like the Air-to-Air refuellers, UAVs and AEW&C aircraft to enhance our capacity and capability to undertake complex operations,&#8221; he said.
> 
> &#8220;These new state-of-the-art inductions make it imperative that we train hard and prepare well to induct and integrate the new systems professionally and safely. The achievements of PAF leave no doubt in my mind that we are immensely capable and, as a team, can set and achieve still higher standards&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;We are a peaceful nation with no aggressive designs and want to maintain peace with honour in our region. We are inducting new systems to keep pace with technology and maintain credible conventional balance of force, without which peace cannot be ensured in South Asia,&#8221; he said.
> 
> He said that the JF-17 would be put through its paces in the forthcoming Exercise Hi-Mark 2010.
> 
> The &#8216;JF-17 Thunder&#8217; has the capability to undertake entire spectrum of offensive as well as defensive missions. By joining the elite ranks of PAF, the JF-17 would not only enhance the combat readiness of PAF but also form its back-bone in future.
> 
> The ceremony culminated when an A-5-III fighter led three JF-17 Thunder aircraft in a flypast following which a single JF-17 performed aerobatics over the venue.


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## intelarpit

Mark Sien said:


> _Pakistan is also acquiring with its *own funds* eighteen new Block 52 F-16 fighter aircraft, the most advanced models of the F-16 fleet. Delivery will begin in 2010._
> 
> Remarks by Ambassador Anne W. Patterson at the F-16 Hand-Over Ceremony, Pakistan Air Force Base, Mushaf, Sargodha (07/10/2007) - U.S. Embassy Islamabad, Pakistan




*Sorry to say but Block 52 is not the most advanced model of F-16*.

I guess its F-16 I of Block 60....


BTW It can be F-16 IN


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## intelarpit

> Oh and yeah wt abt ur LCA (Last Chance Aircraft)............still no engine and radar.



Israeli Radar and General Electric F404 engine

We do not make Junks with Chinese Credit....That is the reason why we never went for a french upgrade


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## Ammyy

MZUBAIR said:


> Do u have single one.....?
> First get a single F-16 then laugh here........U dont have anything..only in papers
> 
> 
> 
> Papay JF17 1st SQD is in AIR, Do u know what does Squadron (SQD) means.......or u have low literacy .....n ur purpose here just to flame.
> 
> Compare ur all ground support AC's with JF-17........goto JF-17 Multirole thread u will find many things.
> 
> *Source:-First Squadron of JF-17 Thunder inducted in PAF*
> 
> Oh and yeah wt abt ur LCA (Last Chance Aircraft)............still no engine and radar.



We dnt need old aircraft like u . USA already offer us more advance F16IN and F18 but we have to chose that they are able to suit our requirement or not. not like you after lot of request first they give 18 after some more request 14 more 

Seriously first sq. of jf17  with out proper engine, radar, aviation really a great mile stone 

Difference between IAF and PAF that without proper development LCA not inducted in IAF.. but sorry you have no choice rather than jf17 so what PAF can do .... i can understand


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## Areesh

intelarpit said:


> Israeli Radar and General Electric F404 engine
> 
> We do not make Junks with Chinese Credit....That is the reason why we never went for a french upgrade



And it is still standing in the garage safe and sound with all this super dooper machinery.

@MZubair


Leave them brother. They are just here to flame and troll. We know about this LCA and we also know the reality of MRCA. We have many things to be proud and their are many things we still have to work hard. We need to work hard and I hope we continue with this pace and improve it too.

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## sms

MZUBAIR said:


> Funny..........pahlay MRCA lay tu low.......
> 8 years passed but ur failed to understand the western technoilogy..........kasay undersand kar saktay ho sare life tu russian technology use kartay rahay ho .
> 
> Any ways we are going to have 100 block 52 F-16's by 2012 and with JF-17 Block II's with western tech would be enough for u .
> 
> Ur in selection phase and we are in production phase.
> So who lost.
> 
> Wasay itnay niukamay hain kay abhi tak 8 saal kay bad bhi aik AC descide nahi kar sakay



That was funny 

That's not called nikamay ... it's strategy . put all bidders against each other, delay it a bit (this time too much), make sellers desperate and get the best deal. You should be aware that most of them are ready for TOT. That's call win. 

About production phase ... u are still behind and PAF do not have credible offensive force. But fighting on your own territory and defending it may be just fine if we ignore other factors.

One more thing to let you know Nikamay are still ahead, think of situation if nikamay sudhar gaye to?


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## TaimiKhan

*It would be better if you guys quit these childish comments and have some proper discussion, and if can't then leave the thread and don't post more rubbish.*

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## Nav

LCA Tejas said:


> Come on I never said that..... The Only thing I said is, You cannot Have air superiority over Us in a war....



pak wil strike indian Bases with babur missile's and and other missile's so their wil not be any aircraft nor any air superiorty

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## Quwa

intelarpit said:


> *Sorry to say but Block 52 is not the most advanced model of F-16*.
> 
> I guess its F-16 I of Block 60....
> 
> 
> BTW It can be F-16 IN


Well for starters, those are not my words (but the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan)...and even though I agree with you...it's irrelevant because the point of the quote was to show that Pakistan was paying for its Block-52+, nothing else. And as for the F-16IN comment, well let us see IAF actually select its MMRCA..which I've been hearing of since before JF-17 even flew, and continue to hear about it as the first fully fledged JF-17 squadrons are raised.

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## Tejas-MkII

Mark Sien said:


> Well for starters, those are not my words (but the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan)...and even though I agree with you...it's irrelevant because the point of the quote was to show that Pakistan was paying for its Block-52+, nothing else. *And as for the F-16IN comment, well let us see IAF actually select its MMRCA..which I've been hearing of since before JF-17 even flew, and continue to hear about it as the first fully fledged JF-17 squadrons are raised*.



Don't worry sir, we definitely give u some good news on this front(by mid of next year),just like we did by PAK-FA and Arihant.


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## Quwa

Tejas-MkII said:


> Don't worry sir, we definitely give u some good news on this front(by mid of next year),just like we did by PAK-FA and Arihant.


Good for you, it's almost been a decade...the wait for MMRCA was as long as my transition from childhood to adulthood, and covered the completion of my high school diploma, my bachelors degree, and my admission into law school.  Good job! Just remember, during this whole process, PAF inducted 2 new fighter types (JF-17 & Block-52+), 2 AEW&C (Erieye & ZDK03), refueling aircraft, etc.


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## Gene

Mark Sien said:


> Good for you, it's almost been a decade...the wait for MMRCA was as long as my transition from childhood to adulthood, and covered the completion of my high school diploma, my bachelors degree, and my admission to law school. Good job! Just remember, during this whole process, PAF inducted 2 new fighter types (JF-17 & Block-52+), 2 AEW&C (Erieye & ZDK03), refueling aircraft, etc.



We took a decade to select MRCA...............
Even after such delays, these MRCA will gonna be best in their class....

LCA too gonna be best in it's class...


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## Quwa

Gene said:


> We took a decade to select MRCA...............
> Even after such delays, these MRCA will gonna be best in their class....
> 
> LCA too gonna be best in it's class...


In the _years_ it will take to induct and operationalize those fighters, don't you think PAF would upgrade its current assets and prepare future ones? While IAF is evaluating its MMRCA options, the PAF is constantly shaping its requirements out of FC-20. The changes from J-10A to J-10B can be observed, and Richard Fisher - a professional analyst - stated that the J-10B is a 4+ fighter. Next step is FC-20, and while it may not be the absolute best in its class, it'll still be in the class of your MMRCA and it will still be a viable threat. 

Get over the 'best' and 'super-duper' mentality, PAF's options will continue to open as the years go on. The SABR and RACR projects for F-16s are in their developmental stages, we have constant reports of PAF pursuing AESA radar for JF-17, we have analysts discussing J-10's developmental climb, and so on. An IAF superiority may exist in many areas, but there will be no actual dominance, and the viability of an attack on Pakistan (and vice-versa) will diminish as the years go on. In the end, both sides can bring their toys the border, but wars will be waged on the negotiating table...but should India make a preemptive attempt, it will be thwarted.


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## F86 Saber

Gene said:


> We took a decade to select MRCA...............
> Even after such delays, these MRCA will gonna be best in their class....
> 
> LCA too gonna be best in it's class...




LCA is already the best in its class....the "Drawing Board" class


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## INDIAISM

MZUBAIR said:


> Funny..........pahlay MRCA lay tu low.......
> 8 years passed but ur failed to understand the western technoilogy..........kasay undersand kar saktay ho sare life tu russian technology use kartay rahay ho .
> 
> Any ways we are going to have 100 block 52 F-16's by 2012 and with JF-17 Block II's with western tech would be enough for u .
> 
> Ur in selection phase and we are in production phase.
> So who lost.
> 
> 
> Wasay itnay niukamay hain kay abhi tak 8 saal kay bad bhi aik AC descide nahi kar sakay


*pahlay MRCA lay tu low.......
8 years passed but ur failed to understand the western technoilogy*.

ans...*CHANAKYA NITI*....

ok tell me the names of the aircrafts which can counter su30mki
1)eurofighter---u can't buy that till the winner of mrca is not announced
2)rafale-----same ans
3)gripen----same ans
4)mig35----NO CHANCE
5)f-15----NO CHANCE
6)super hrnet--NO CHANCE
7)f16--18(that to because f16 entered into mrca race(2007) after the deal of 18 f 16 +mlu was signed{2005})


so by delaying mrca deal we have been to able close the doors for u to counter su 30mki temporarily


so in lst 8 yrs u have added only 18 f 16blk52(deal) + 42 f16 mlu(deal)+14 f16(blk unknown) in ur inventory 

and 

on the other hand we have added 230 su 30mki(deal) +66 mig 29(upgd)+45 mig 29k(deal)+51 miraage 2000(9){upgrd deal to be signed}+250 pakfa(deal)

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## Kompromat

INDIAISM said:


> *pahlay MRCA lay tu low.......
> 8 years passed but ur failed to understand the western technoilogy*.
> 
> ans...*CHANAKYA NITI*....
> 
> ok tell me the names of the aircrafts which can counter su30mki
> 1)eurofighter---u can't buy that till the winner of mrca is not announced
> 2)rafale-----same ans
> 3)gripen----same ans
> 4)mig35----NO CHANCE
> 5)f-15----NO CHANCE
> 6)super hrnet--NO CHANCE
> 7)f16--18(that to because f16 entered into mrca race(2007) after the deal of 18 f 16 +mlu was signed{2005})
> 
> 
> so by delaying mrca deal we have been to able close the doors for u to counter su 30mki temporarily
> 
> 
> so in lst 8 yrs u have added only 18 f 16blk52(deal) + 42 f16 mlu(deal)+14 f16(blk unknown) in ur inventory
> 
> and
> 
> on the other hand we have added 230 su 30mki(deal) +66 mig 29(upgd)+45 mig 29k(deal)+51 miraage 2000(9){upgrd deal to be signed}+250 pakfa(deal)



Can this counter MKI


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## Areesh

Black Blood said:


> Can this counter MKI



No this will surely.

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## SBD-3

enough plz.....we are here to discuss....


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## KS

Areesh said:


> No this will surely.



Are u buying this from China..?

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Are u buying this from China..?



No a very senior IAF official has leaked this secret weapon. Another ISI agent story in place.

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## Kompromat

*All Right guys please stop it.*

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## SBD-3

I hate when people return to this one on one stuff!!!


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## F86 Saber

Hussnain bhai and BB bhai please allow just one more please please please please............



LCA Tejas......Prototype 1 takes it's maiden flight......


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## Ammyy

F86 Saber said:


> Hussnain bhai and BB bhai please allow just one more please please please please............
> 
> 
> 
> LCA Tejas......Prototype 1 takes it's maiden flight......



if our scientists are able to make Tejas from above prototype to this one





so thts a big reason of wary for you

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## Tejas-MkII

Mark Sien said:


> Good for you, it's almost been a decade...*the wait for MMRCA was as long as my transition from childhood to adulthood, and covered the completion of my high school diploma, my bachelors degree, and my admission into law school. * Good job!  Just remember, during this whole process, PAF inducted 2 new fighter types (JF-17 & Block-52+), 2 AEW&C (Erieye & ZDK03), refueling aircraft, etc.



Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order

I think now u start feeling  as ur wait is getting closer to over.


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## INDIAISM

Mark Sien said:


> In the _years_ it will take to induct and operationalize those fighters, don't you think PAF would upgrade its current assets and prepare future ones? While IAF is evaluating its MMRCA options, the PAF is constantly shaping its requirements out of FC-20. The changes from J-10A to J-10B can be observed, and Richard Fisher - a professional analyst - stated that the J-10B is a 4+ fighter. Next step is FC-20, and while it may not be the absolute best in its class, it'll still be in the class of your MMRCA and it will still be a viable threat.
> 
> Get over the 'best' and 'super-duper' mentality, PAF's options will continue to open as the years go on. The SABR and RACR projects for F-16s are in their developmental stages, we have constant reports of PAF pursuing AESA radar for JF-17, we have analysts discussing J-10's developmental climb, and so on. An IAF superiority may exist in many areas, but there will be no actual dominance, and the viability of an attack on Pakistan (and vice-versa) will diminish as the years go on. In the end, both sides can bring their toys the border, but wars will be waged on the negotiating table...but should India make a preemptive attempt, it will be thwarted.


no doubt j10b will match f16 blk 52 but as far as comparing j10b with rafale,eurofighter or super hornet is concern hmm i have doubt on that.............u can compare j10 with miraage2000,mig 29,f-16,gripen but as far as rafale,euro,sh18 r concern they belongs to a different league...........and ya don't 4get experience gained through miraage 2000 upgrades,mig 29 upgrade,production of su 30mki ,production of mrca and r&d for pakfa and amca will automatically help us in improving lca tejas to j10b level.............


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## sms

*Guys refrain from these childish comments. Pls stop and at least pay attention to Mod's request.*



TaimiKhan said:


> *It would be better if you guys quit these childish comments and have some proper discussion, and if can't then leave the thread and don't post more rubbish.*





Areesh said:


> No this will surely.





F86 Saber said:


> Hussnain bhai and BB bhai please allow just one more please please please please............
> 
> 
> 
> LCA Tejas......Prototype 1 takes it's maiden flight......





F86 Saber said:


> LCA is already the best in its class....the "Drawing Board" class


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## SomeGuy

INDIAISM said:


> no doubt j10b will match f16 blk 52 but as far as comparing j10b with rafale,eurofighter or super hornet is concern hmm i have doubt on that.............u can compare j10 with miraage2000,mig 29,f-16,gripen but as far as rafale,euro,sh18 r concern they belongs to a different league...........and ya don't 4get experience gained through miraage 2000 upgrades,mig 29 upgrade,production of su 30mki ,production of mrca and r&d for pakfa and amca will automatically help us in improving lca tejas to j10b level.............



You don't know the performance spec of J-10B - ur just speculating.

But you're kind of right, J-10B is not in same league because it is a *single engine medium fighter* whereas Rafale, Eurofighter and Super Hornet are *twin engine heavy fighters*.

Who is doing these upgrades for M2K, MiG-29 and MKI?
Who is doing R&D for PAK-FA?

The answer to both is: Not India.

So how does that automatically give you experience and help you in improving Tejas to J-10B level?

Tejas is a lightweight fighter - it will never be as capable as J-10B

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## Areesh

sms said:


> *Guys refrain from these childish comments. Pls stop and at least pay attention to Mod's request.*



Oh that request from the mods applies on you and other of your brothers too.


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## farhan_9909

Only rafale or j-11BS(with ws-10A) 

THis is truth and we cant deny it that j-10B,any block of jf-17 or f-16 block 52 cannot compete with f-18,rafale or eurofighter of MMRCA
j-10B with twin engine can take any aircraft bt single engine nt.

Pakistan should ask to china to fit twin engine in j-10B even if it delay the project more bt plzz say no to more single engine fighter

we need one air superiority fighter be it j-11BS or rafale or j-10 with twin engine


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## gaurish

Pakistan only needs this....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...

then it can counter anyone


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## Machoman

farhan_9909 said:


> Only rafale or j-11BS(with ws-10A)
> 
> THis is truth and we cant deny it that j-10B,any block of jf-17 or f-16 block 52 cannot compete with f-18,rafale or eurofighter of MMRCA
> j-10B with twin engine can take any aircraft bt single engine nt.
> 
> Pakistan should ask to china to fit twin engine in j-10B even if it delay the project more bt plzz say no to more single engine fighter
> 
> we need one air superiority fighter be it j-11BS or rafale or j-10 with twin engine



Ok lets send request now and wait for result. do you really think its that easy..


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## Machoman

One Plane still have potential to compete against twin engine which is SAAB Gripen. Which is almost the same level a F-18, EF or RF.


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## farhan_9909

Machoman said:


> Ok lets send request now and wait for result. do you really think its that easy..



its nt easy
then its the truth that j-10B doesnt even stand against any MMRC fighter except the gripen and f-16IN..

chineese themselve consider j-10B compared to F-16 block 60 which only differ frm block 52 by 7Kn thrust and AESA radar


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## Machoman

farhan_9909 said:


> its nt easy
> then its the truth that j-10B doesnt even stand against any MMRC fighter except the gripen and f-16IN..
> 
> chineese themselve consider j-10B compared to F-16 block 60 which only differ frm block 52 by 7Kn thrust and AESA radar



Sorry my friend and I just don't want to disappoint my Chinese friends either. But this is the truth. We need to come out of J-17 and J-10B dream and see what else we need to do to improve PAF. Look at Indian air force they have Mirage-2000, Jaguar, Mig 27, Mig 29, Su 27, Su 33, Harrier, and they are adding May be EF or RF. And top of that they ordered 200 PAK-FA. What we have F-16 and J-17 please man look at it to a real side. We have to go for more European or american planes. RF, EF, Saab Gripen, F-18, F-15 etc. I know they cost a lot but we also need to see what is best for us.


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## Storm Force

Pakistan is in no financial state soon to buy $100m war planes.


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## nForce

Machoman said:


> Sorry my friend and I just don't want to disappoint my Chinese friends either. But this is the truth. We need to come out of J-17 and J-10B dream and see what else we need to do to improve PAF. Look at Indian air force they have Mirage-2000, Jaguar, Mig 27, Mig 29, Su 27, Su 33, Harrier, and they are adding May be EF or RF. And top of that they ordered 200 PAK-FA. What we have F-16 and J-17 please man look at it to a real side. We have to go for more European or american planes. RF, EF, Saab Gripen, F-18, F-15 etc. I know they cost a lot but we also need to see what is best for us.



does India have Su-33??? I dont know..please clarify


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## INDIAISM

SomeGuy said:


> You don't know the performance spec of J-10B - ur just speculating.
> 
> But you're kind of right, J-10B is not in same league because it is a *single engine medium fighter* whereas Rafale, Eurofighter and Super Hornet are *twin engine heavy fighters*.
> 
> Who is doing these upgrades for *M2K, MiG-29 and MKI*?
> Who is doing R&D for *PAK-FA*?
> 
> _*The answer to both is: Not India*_.
> 
> So how does that automatically give you experience and help you in improving Tejas to J-10B level?
> 
> Tejas is a lightweight fighter - it will never be as capable as J-10B



*su 30mki *

Total indigenisation of Sukhoi Su-30MKI next year: HAL 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...genisation-sukhoi-su-30mki-next-year-hal.html

*mig29 upgd* 

*Initially, two MiG-29s will be sent to Russia for prototype development and the rest will be upgraded in HAL's Nashik-based Ozar plant.*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4167-mig-29-upgrade-sanctioned.html


*miraage 2000(9*)

Dassault will upgrade the first two Mirages in France, where HAL engineers will participate in the work. The new avionics, to be bought from Israel, will be installed on the Mirages at HAL facilities in India.

The remaining 50 Mirages will be upgraded in India with technical help from Dassault, the Defence Ministry official said. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/29921-news-mirage-2000-upgrade.html


*FGFA{pakfa}*

Bangalore-based HAL has negotiated firmly to get a 25 per cent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HAL&#8217;s work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems; and modifying Sukhoi&#8217;s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants.



*SO THE ANSWER IS YES ITS INDIA*

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## INDIAISM

farhan_9909 said:


> Only rafale or j-11BS(with ws-10A)
> 
> THis is truth and we cant deny it that j-10B,any block of jf-17 or f-16 block 52 cannot compete with f-18,rafale or eurofighter of MMRCA
> j-10B with twin engine can take any aircraft bt single engine nt.
> 
> *Pakistan should ask to china to fit twin engine in j-10B even if it delay the project *more bt plzz say no to more single engine fighter
> 
> we need one air superiority fighter be it j-11BS or rafale or j-10 with twin engine


Sir wo plane bna rhe hai mutton korma nhi jo tum keh do ge ki bhai *jra masala tez kr dena*


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## Super Falcon

well their are only two cheap option are avaiable J 10B and J 11 in reality we can get J 10B but it may have world latest radar and weapon system only than J 10 can give tough times to IAF MRCA yet J 10B has to proof it self in war time situation it is completely new jet needs atleast 5 years to get it han best self in world's most reliable jets but if we have money the best option F 15 eagle is if we get atleast 70 to 80 and along with J 10B 50 than we can take care of entire IAF


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## Evil Flare

INDIAISM said:


> Sir wo plane bna rhe mutton korma nhi jo tum keh do ge ki bhai *jra masala tez kr dena*


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## SomeGuy

INDIAISM said:


> *su 30mki *
> 
> Total indigenisation of Sukhoi Su-30MKI next year: HAL
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...genisation-sukhoi-su-30mki-next-year-hal.html



Indigenisation is not the same as R&D'ing technolgies and systems to upgrade with.



INDIAISM said:


> *mig29 upgd*
> 
> *Initially, two MiG-29s will be sent to Russia for prototype development and the rest will be upgraded in HAL's Nashik-based Ozar plant.*
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4167-mig-29-upgrade-sanctioned.html



The upgrades were R&D by Russia.
Installing upgraded systems R&D by somebody else doesn't count.



INDIAISM said:


> *miraage 2000(9*)
> 
> Dassault will upgrade the first two Mirages in France, where HAL engineers will participate in the work. The new avionics, to be bought from Israel, will be installed on the Mirages at HAL facilities in India.
> 
> The remaining 50 Mirages will be upgraded in India with technical help from Dassault, the Defence Ministry official said.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/29921-news-mirage-2000-upgrade.html



Same as above. Avionics were R&D by Israel.
How much R&D did India contribute to these new avionics upgrades?
Why do you still need technical assistance from Dassault?

Installing systems that somebody else develops doesn't count as R&D.



INDIAISM said:


> *FGFA{pakfa}*
> 
> Bangalore-based HAL has negotiated firmly to get a 25 per cent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HAL&#8217;s work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems; and modifying Sukhoi&#8217;s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants.



The stuff you mention above can be found on 4++ generation aircraft.
The question is what 5 gen technologies are Indians contributing to PAK-FA?


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## SomeGuy

nForce said:


> does India have Su-33??? I dont know..please clarify



No.

These birds are aging cold war era relics.

Only Russia operates these, but looking to replace them with more MiG29K


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## mikkix

INDIAISM said:


> Sir wo plane bna rhe mutton korma nhi jo tum keh do ge ki bhai *jra masala tez kr dena*



hhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..


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## INDIAISM

SomeGuy said:


> Indigenisation is not the same as R&D'ing technolgies and systems to upgrade with.
> 
> 
> 
> The upgrades were R&D by Russia.
> Installing upgraded systems R&D by somebody else doesn't count.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as above. Avionics were R&D by Israel.
> How much R&D did India contribute to these new avionics upgrades?
> Why do you still need technical assistance from Dassault?
> 
> Installing systems that somebody else develops doesn't count as R&D.
> 
> 
> 
> The stuff you mention above can be found on 4++ generation aircraft.
> The question is what 5 gen technologies are Indians contributing to PAK-FA?


don't u think experience gained through upgrading mig 29 and miraage 2000 in hal unit,manufacturing 100&#37; su 30mki through tot and developing even 4++ gen stuff for 5th gen aircrafts will help us in improving LCA TEJAS


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## Quwa

INDIAISM said:


> no doubt j10b will match f16 blk 52 but as far as comparing j10b with rafale,eurofighter or super hornet is concern hmm i have doubt on that.............u can compare j10 with miraage2000,mig 29,f-16,gripen but as far as rafale,euro,sh18 r concern they belongs to a different league...........and ya don't 4get experience gained through miraage 2000 upgrades,mig 29 upgrade,production of su 30mki ,production of mrca and r&d for pakfa and amca will automatically help us in improving lca tejas to j10b level.............


Richard Fisher...a professional analyst...i.e. not some random forum 'analyst' has stated clearly that J-10B is going up the 4+ gen. route. So who the heck is anyone here to start contradicting him without specific details and comparisons?


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## SomeGuy

INDIAISM said:


> don't u think experience gained through upgrading mig 29 and miraage 2000 in hal unit,manufacturing 100% su 30mki through tot and developing even 4++ gen stuff for 5th gen aircrafts will help us in improving LCA TEJAS



I suppose you have a point.
India has access to technology from a wide range of sources and ToT can help domestic R&D.


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## Irfan Baloch

sohailbutt said:


> ur right abut them who cant even fly hawks properly n thinkin of flyin f-18s



dont make such remarks guys
they are a potent force of the region

it is their same harriors that sank our gunboats in East Pakistan

they have them parked by the conrtol line in Kashmir too in small airfields for surprise attacks.

we must respect the enemy for its abilities 
our pilots are only good by the Grace and Blessings of Allah


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## Irfan Baloch

Mark Sien said:


> Richard Fisher...a professional analyst...i.e. not some random forum 'analyst' has stated clearly that J-10B is going up the 4+ gen. route. So who the heck is anyone here to start contradicting him without specific details and comparisons?



simple reason

restriction to advanced Western technology on China
Indigenous technology lagging behind by few decades

copying Western airframes wont automatically put Chinese craft in the same league as American planes


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## SomeGuy

Irfan Baloch said:


> simple reason
> 
> restriction to advanced Western technology on China
> Indigenous technology lagging behind by few decades
> 
> copying Western airframes wont automatically put Chinese craft in the same league as American planes



If that's the best that some of the "random forum analysts" can come up with then Richard Fisher has nothing to worry about


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## Quwa

Irfan Baloch said:


> simple reason
> 
> restriction to advanced Western technology on China
> Indigenous technology lagging behind by few decades
> 
> copying Western airframes wont automatically put Chinese craft in the same league as American planes


Proof that Chinese technology is lagging behind a "few decades?" On one hand we have - again I'd like to emphasize - a _real analyst_ saying, _"Both fighters may also be upgraded with a Chinese-built active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar which would elevate them to a 4+ generation level. When so upgraded, they will likely be competitive with U.S. 4+ gen fighters like the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Lockheed-Martin F-16 Block 60 Falcon and AESA radar equipped variants of the Boeing F-15C Eagle."_ 

Secondly, lets say that you're correct and Richard Fisher, *"a Senior Fellow on Asian Military Affairs. [...] recognized authority on the PRC military and the Asian military balance and their implications for Asia and the United States*" is wrong... how does that have bearing on the PAF being restricted with regards to how it equips its fighters?

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## Machoman

Mark Sien said:


> Richard Fisher...a professional analyst...i.e. not some random forum 'analyst' has stated clearly that J-10B is going up the 4+ gen. route. So who the heck is anyone here to start contradicting him without specific details and comparisons?



First of all j-10b is in testing phase so uncle Richard can only predict things like we do here. Until the plane come in really production and prove it that's it's really capable of what it says. So before that we cannot even talk about j-10b.


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## Kompromat

Machoman said:


> First of all j-10b is in testing phase so uncle Richard can only predict things like we do here. Until the plane come in really production and prove it that's it's really capable of what it says. So before that we cannot even talk about j-10b.



Same have been said by PAF pilots who tested J-10 and are involved in FC-20 Project if it satisfies you.


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## Cent4

Machoman said:


> First of all j-10b is in testing phase so uncle Richard can only predict things like we do here. Until the plane come in really production and prove it that's it's really capable of what it says. So before that we cannot even talk about j-10b.



hi
would you mind telling me whats the criteria wihch states that the a/c has proved itself. because I really dont see point of this discussion.
when a country like china want to develop an a/c for its airforce what do you expect from them they will go from 4gen a/c to 4++ a/c or they will go back to 3gen tech.
they will induct the a/c after a lengthy procedure of test n evaluation.
and believe me they will get it right. they have already developed 3 prototype.


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## SomeGuy

Machoman said:


> First of all j-10b is in testing phase so uncle Richard can only predict things like we do here. Until the plane come in really production and prove it that's it's really capable of what it says. So before that we cannot even talk about j-10b.



J-10B is in testing phase yes - so we don't really know its capabilities.

However, you can make reasonable estimates of it's capabilities based upon the aircraft that it's based on i.e. J-10A (A solid 4th Gen aircraft which has been fully tested against Su-27 and MKK).

J-10B is going to be more advanced than J-10A otherwise there would be no point wasting millions developing it.

So is it too hard to imagine that J-10B is a 4.5 Gen fighter given that it is more advanced than the 4th Gen J-10A that it's based upon?


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## Quwa

Machoman said:


> First of all j-10b is in testing phase so uncle Richard can only predict things like we do here. Until the plane come in really production and prove it that's it's really capable of what it says. So before that we cannot even talk about j-10b.


...excuse me?...what are your credentials again? Are you a _'recognized authority on the PRC military?_' 

To be frank, all I see is people implying that some Indian owned Su-30 with Israeli ECM/EW is 4+/4.5 generation beyond any shred of doubt..._*but*_ a _Chinese_ built J-11B which _"improves upon the Su-27 design by using more composite materials to reduce airframe weight, a new digital cockpit and a better Chinese-made radar"_ and will soon test an AESA radar cannot possibly be 4+/4.5 generation? 

And even should these people _somehow accept_ the word of a professional analyst (such as Richard Fisher) who has far more resources in terms of information and a much higher capability to verify the validity of said information than 99&#37;+ of the esteemed pseudo-'analysts' here...it is still beyond reality that the Chinese would apply the 4+/4.5-gen. technology on their other programs, such as J-10B...never minding the fact that now J-10B is widely acknowledged to be a testing platform for PLAAF's 5th generation program...and somehow we're expecting the Chinese to use 3rd or 2nd gen. technology as a testbed for 5th gen. tech.

The gaps in logic and rationality here amaze me. Get over it people, the Chinese are testing 4+/4.5 generation technology, and unless you can foot $100k+ (and this is very generous, I was asked to intern at a think-tank, and this stuff costs millions of $) to somehow acquire research to the contrary, I suggest you stop trying to discredit facts with generalized one-liners on the basis that the facts don't fit in your daydreams.

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## farhan_9909

Machoman said:


> Sorry my friend and I just don't want to disappoint my Chinese friends either. But this is the truth. We need to come out of J-17 and J-10B dream and see what else we need to do to improve PAF. Look at Indian air force they have Mirage-2000, Jaguar, Mig 27, Mig 29, Su 27, Su 33, Harrier, and they are adding May be EF or RF. And top of that they ordered 200 PAK-FA. What we have F-16 and J-17 please man look at it to a real side. We have to go for more European or american planes. RF, EF, Saab Gripen, F-18, F-15 etc. I know they cost a lot but we also need to see what is best for us.



true we need a twin engine fighter for air superiority..we already hav many A2G role aircraft.
j-10B will cost +40 Million.and if we want to induct 150 then why nt buy f-18 or rafale only in 70 numbers.
or why nt the j-11BS with chineese engine and AESA.

plzz say no to single engine fighter.


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## Super Falcon

farhan_9909 said:


> true we need a twin engine fighter for air superiority..we already hav many A2G role aircraft.
> j-10B will cost +40 Million.and if we want to induct 150 then why nt buy f-18 or rafale only in 70 numbers.
> or why nt the j-11BS with chineese engine and AESA.
> 
> plzz say no to single engine fighter.




i fully agre with you paf has to buy twin engine jet one way or the other in future why not now single engine jets dont have sort of speed and range to defeat enemy but if we have F 15 along with F 15 or EF it will make killing combination most of airforces make combination in their airforces and paf dont have any air superiority fighter jet


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## farhan_9909

Super Falcon said:


> i fully agre with you paf has to buy twin engine jet one way or the other in future why not now single engine jets dont have sort of speed and range to defeat enemy but if we have F 15 along with F 15 or EF it will make killing combination most of airforces make combination in their airforces and paf dont have any air superiority fighter jet



We cant buy f-15 or any other jet frm west except the rafale bt the prob with rafale is its money

if we join the j10B project with china and make it a twin engine fighter.or buy j-11B frm china.

the only option for j-10B is to put ws-15 engine in it which thrust is equal to twin engine thrust of EF and rafale..(180KN) bt the engine is nt ready yet..


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## INDIAISM

farhan_9909 said:


> We cant buy f-15 or any other jet frm west except the rafale bt the prob with rafale is its money
> 
> if we join the j10B project with china and make it a twin engine fighter.or buy j-11B frm china.
> 
> the only option for j-10B is to put ws-15 engine in it which thrust is equal to twin engine thrust of EF and rafale..(180KN) bt the engine is nt ready yet..


twin engine j10b

as far as j 11 b is concern..........do u think china can sell them without russia's permission IMPOSSIBLE


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## farhan_9909

INDIAISM said:


> twin engine j10b
> 
> as far as j 11 b is concern..........do u think china can sell them without russia's permission IMPOSSIBLE



it was an idea..
and i think it can be done to j-10B,bt will need alot of modifications

and j-11BS is with chineese avionics and weapons and 

and i dnt knw they can sell j-11BS to us or nt


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## Cent4

In addition to engines and avionics, China now offers complete accessory packages for its J-11 family of heavy fighters.


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## SomeGuy

farhan_9909 said:


> true we need a twin engine fighter for air superiority..we already hav many A2G role aircraft.
> j-10B will cost +40 Million.and if we want to induct 150 then why nt buy f-18 or rafale only in 70 numbers.
> or why nt the j-11BS with chineese engine and AESA.
> 
> plzz say no to single engine fighter.



70 F-18/Rafale may very well cost the same amount as 150 J-10B but I think in the longer term it might be more sensible to go for J-10B because maintenance will be easier.

F-18 would come with a lot of strings attached - What about all the US officials saying that US weapons must not be used against India?
Sure, there's nothing preventing these weapons being used against India, but do you think the US would then supply parts and maintenance?

Also, in a conflict, the numberical advantage of having 150 J-10B over 70 F-18/Rafale would be more useful.


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## Hindustan Fighter

SomeGuy said:


> 70 F-18/Rafale may very well cost the same amount as 150 J-10B but I think in the longer term it might be more sensible to go for J-10B because maintenance will be easier.
> 
> F-18 would come with a lot of strings attached - What about all the US officials saying that US weapons must not be used against India?
> Sure, there's nothing preventing these weapons being used against India, but do you think the US would then supply parts and maintenance?
> 
> Also, in a conflict, the numberical advantage of having 150 J-10B over 70 F-18/Rafale would be more useful.



Hi also Rafale is outrageously expensive. I think none of Asian countries should go for it (including India). 
I you are following Brazilian fighter competition you will see that the finally bid summited by Dassault for just 36 Rafale is 8.6 $ billions (initial bid us more than $10 Billion). Although if includes spare parts cost for 3 decades still it doesnot looks justified.
I think J10b will be truly 4.5 generation fighter and should be a great catch for Pakistan if available for 40- 50 $ million.


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## SBD-3

@Farhan...........what i can suggest to you is that wait.....PAF is patient which shows that PAF will have most likely have a matured platform and will certainly test the limits of J-10B....J-11B is a heavy aircraft but why would PAF need this when we can cover most bases with current range. lets analyse
J-10 Maximum range: 1,850 km (1,000 nm, 1,150 mi)
Combat radius: 550 km (300 nm, 340 mi)
Ok here are distances between sargodha and some indian bases
Western Command
Adampur 297.000 KM
AGRA 750.200 KM (should reach here with refueling)
Ahmadabad 1005.000KM(should reach here with refueling)
Amritsar 213.700KM
Bhatinda 300.200 KM
Chandigarh 417.800KM
Halwara 319.600KM
Leh 513.200KM
Palampur 225.100 KM
Pathan Kot 281.000KM
Srinagar 298.300 KM
Udham singh Nagar 732.600KM

so effectively from only sargodha.....we can cover their whole western command....you can also calculate the distances from different Pakistani Bases.....here'z the links
List of Indian Air Force bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How Far Is It Between
I hope now you would understand why PAF doesn't need a twin engine heavy beast

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## Storm Force

Hasnain. 

India has 60 air bases some upto 1000 km from Sargodha. 

You have listed just 25&#37; of them nearly all in Punjab. 

There are at least 5 around NEW Delhi

6 at 6 naval bases over 1500 km. 

India biggest arms priduction companies are in South India near Bangalore. 

Just touching Punjab is like bombing 10% of india massive military structure


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> @Farhan...........what i can suggest to you is that wait.....PAF is patient which shows that PAF will have most likely have a matured platform and will certainly test the limits of J-10B....J-11B is a heavy aircraft but why would PAF need this when we can cover most bases with current range. lets analyse
> J-10 Maximum range: 1,850 km (1,000 nm, 1,150 mi)
> Combat radius: 550 km (300 nm, 340 mi)
> Ok here are distances between sargodha and some indian bases
> Western Command
> Adampur 297.000 KM
> AGRA 750.200 KM (should reach here with refueling)
> Ahmadabad 1005.000KM(should reach here with refueling)
> Amritsar 213.700KM
> Bhatinda 300.200 KM
> Chandigarh 417.800KM
> Halwara 319.600KM
> Leh 513.200KM
> Palampur 225.100 KM
> Pathan Kot 281.000KM
> Srinagar 298.300 KM
> Udham singh Nagar 732.600KM
> 
> so effectively from only sargodha.....we can cover their whole western command....you can also calculate the distances from different Pakistani Bases.....here'z the links
> List of Indian Air Force bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> How Far Is It Between
> I hope now you would understand why PAF doesn't need a twin engine heavy beast



Your point might be right when you think about defending an IAF attack and a possible reaction on those bases only, but like Stormforce said there are many bases, or targets that are more far away right. 
Another argument to counter you, would be twin engine doesn't mean longer range only, but also better t/w ratios, more power for other systems and so on. Just think about Israel, Singapore, South Korea, or Japan, all relatively small countries, but they all have the F15 for air superiority right?


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## Speeder 2

sancho said:


> Your point might be right when you think about defending an IAF attack and a possible reaction on those bases only, but like Stormforce said there are many bases, or targets that are more far away right.
> Another argument to counter you, would be twin engine doesn't mean longer range only, but also better t/w ratios, more power for other systems and so on. Just think about Israel, Singapore, South Korea, or Japan, all relatively small countries, but they all have the F15 for air superiority right?





PAF's decision to use single engine fighter is stragetic and a smart choice. It's not the idea to counter relatively far bigger India $ for $ to start with as many forummers here would untintentionally assume in such VS discussion. I can imagine that the decision is based on the geo location, financial resources, parts availability, maintainance, etc whole host of issues. 

The similar small as countries such as Israel, Singapore, S Korea and Japan, Pakistan doesn't possess the same kind of financial resources to indulge with some fancy toys. Single engine fighters are enough to handle regional / inter-city small conflicts as they would most likely to be the case, hence it's not a must to cover all air bases of India, under such a scenario a nuclear war would have been errupted long before that kind of boming becoming a neccesity.

I think it's most efficient for Pakistan to fully absorb techs and large scale production of JF-17 (with continuous more indigenious upgrades, etc.), perfect operations of F-16 blk 52, and being fully commited to J-10B(JF-20), while waiting for the single-engine version of J-XX. These babies , if intergrated well, are sufficient to counter IAF as a whole IMO. Of course, it's always a good id to keep an eye on some good western sub systems as well. Nonetheless, as what a seasoned boxer walking into a ring would like to think, an elegantly intergrated, fully commited and well tested fighting platform, simple it may look, is almost always more deadly than a combination of a little bit of every tricks under the sun as IAF has, which looks fancy on paper yet remains unneccesarily complicated (a nightmare from both real-fight operation and maintainance POV) thus less effective on the contrary in reality. Hey, Bruce Lee may only have 3 punches plus 1 sidekick, he aims to KO you with the simple combi in a minute, while a circus clown could have 80 moves to entertain audiences for a whole night long

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## Super Falcon

well F 15 will be the best if we wont get F 15 than J 11 will be good too


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## Sanchez

Maybe Pakistan can take a look at Chinese asymmetric doctrine for defence. The lack of funding to build a tit-for-tat airforce may be compensated by having more SAMs and long distance firing power. The long distance rockets, Babur missiles and SRBMs can be used to cripple the enemy's airports. Effective strikes at the airports may significantly reduce threats from air. Strong SAM system can take care of the rest.

It's "said" that Chinese 200km WS-2 rockets are tested in some Arab country:
http://images.huanqiu.com/bbs/2010/06/09/S0D20100609095010MT419331.jpg
http://images.huanqiu.com/bbs/2010/06/09/S0D20100609095012MT509157.jpg
http://images.huanqiu.com/bbs/2010/06/09/S0D20100609095011MT693658.jpg


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## xMustiiej70

why is this MRCA taking so long..
its like india is going to offer 1 trillion kg of diamond to these companies..
i wouldn't bother with india.
i woul say: buy it? test it? or gtfo.


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## ramu

xMustiiej70 said:


> why is this MRCA taking so long..
> its like india is going to offer 1 trillion kg of diamond to these companies..
> i wouldn't bother with india.
> i woul say: buy it? test it? or gtfo.



MRCA bid is on course... It is a large exercise that involves comparison of sophisticated bleeding edge technology. Such an exercise is first of its kind anywhere in the world and going by past procurement delays, I am more than happy that it is going close to planned dates.


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## xMustiiej70

so the fighter jets are exercising to impress india?
wtf?


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## ramu

xMustiiej70 said:


> so the fighter jets are exercising to impress india?
> wtf?



No they are being evaluated based on parameters set by MoD in consultation with IAF.


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## anathema

xMustiiej70 said:


> so the fighter jets are exercising to impress india?
> wtf?



That is hillarious ..even though you din mean it as a joke


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## INDIAISM

xMustiiej70 said:


> why is this MRCA taking so long..
> its like india is going to offer 1 trillion kg of diamond to these companies..
> i wouldn't bother with india.
> i woul say: buy it? test it? or gtfo.


through mrca IAF is buying time to replace their vintge aircrafts with su 30mki by making sure that pak don't get any good platform till su 30mki is not fully inducted................Chanakyaniti at its best


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## Rocketsingh

xMustiiej70 said:


> so the fighter jets are exercising to impress india?
> wtf?



they are 4 the republic day parade


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## flanker143

> well F 15 will be the best if we wont get F 15 than J 11 will be good too



f 15 for pak ???????? far tooo expensive for pak to afford and maintain 

and for j 11 , u cant take it like any other chinese jet , as j 11 aint chinese , its updated su 27 , so if pak wants j11 it wud be from russia ..... and that india wont allow !!!!!!!!!!!! so the moral of the story is da best u can get is j17 or j10 , thats it ..accept it .............and then scrap it bcoz both jets ain't comparabe to mmrca (likely ef2000 or mig 35)


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## MZUBAIR

xMustiiej70 said:


> why is this MRCA taking so long..
> its like india is going to offer 1 trillion kg of diamond to these companies..
> i wouldn't bother with india.
> i woul say: buy it? test it? or gtfo.



Yes there are many reasons in delays.

1) The delays were said to be due to new factors added into the RFP (Request For Proposal) such as Total Life-cycle Costs as well as fine-tuning the Offset policy. The Total Life-cycle Cost has been introduced for the first time in Indian defence procurements, and has reportedly been a major source of the delay.

2) India is trying to block Pakistan to get western weapons etc.
3) Few of jets are well tested like F-18, F-16 in wars but AC's like Mig 35 are ver new and need to be tested.
4) IAF have lot of experience of Russian technoilogy thats y they were having problems to adopt western techno such as F-16, F-8 etc.
5) India might already have opted Eurofighter but they are delaying coz, now the MRCA deal issue is more political then there own intrest.


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## Dark Angel

J-10 is the only reality


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## flanker143

right now is jf using klj7 or a lighter version of klj10 the one used on j10 ??? 
plz tell .......


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## SBD-3

flanker143 said:


> right now is jf using klj7 or a lighter version of klj10 the one used on j10 ???
> plz tell .......


true, its a miniaturized version of KLJ-10


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## shanixee

can you guys explain me wats the point of MMRCA if LCA tejas is equalint to EF2000 and Rafale. cause according to indian media sources its now in process of delivery and will be depolyed to new indian bases. and if india place order of MMRCA today then they will get in a time where LCA (according to indians which will be deployed very soon) wat i exectly mean rather then placing such a big order invest in LCA and get something of their own rather then depending on others...like pakistan in JF17 case.....something is fishy abt LCA. 

they might not hve trust on their technology or it is not as good as they pretent it to be


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## intelarpit

shanixee said:


> can you guys explain me wats the point of MMRCA if LCA tejas is equalint to EF2000 and Rafale.



Who said LCA is equivalent to EF or Rafale??



> cause according to indian media sources its now in process of delivery and will be depolyed to new indian bases. and if india place order of MMRCA today then they will get in a time where LCA (according to indians which will be deployed very soon)



Yes LCA is already in LSP and almost 40 are ordered with the current configuration.

The point is LCA is a plane in light weight category. It is not as good as EF or F-18 but it is way better than Mig-21 and LCA is made to replace Mig-21 which it will do




> wat i exectly mean rather then placing such a big order invest in LCA and get something of their own rather then depending on others...like pakistan in JF17 case.....something is fishy abt LCA.
> 
> they might not hve trust on their technology or it is not as good as they pretent it to be



JF-17?? If JF-17 such a wonderful plane then why are you inducting F-16 and J-10?? Is something fishy about JF-17?? Why dont you invest in JF-17?? You might not have trust on your JV thats why more F-16??

Dude the answer is simple..like LCA, JF-17 is also in the category of light aircrafts and every air force needs a mixture of Light, medium and heavy aircrafts..thats why MMRCA


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## Chanakyaa

@shanixee..

No one claims LCA to be equal to typhoon.
Its a Light Interceptor while typhoon is am Air dominance fighter.

India wants LCA and India wants MMRCA as well.. Both are needed, as per the present requirements.

India will have three class of fighters now...

1. Heavy : The MKI Fits Here, mainly as multirole air dominance

2. Medium : Mirages and MMRCA fit in here, Pur Multirole with best A2g CAPABILITIES.

3. Light : LCA fits here.. Primarily as Interceptor.

And in case of pakistan, Pakistan is Not depending on JF17 BUT BEING FORCED TO DEPEND ON IT WITHOUT CHOICE.

tHEY CANT HAVE F18, MIG AND COSTS MAKE rAFALE AND TYPHOON OUT OF REACH.

INDIA WILL GET AROUND 200 LCA, BLOCK.. i AND ii.


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## mikkix

Dude the answer is simple..like LCA, JF-17 is also in the category of light aircrafts and every air force needs a mixture of Light, medium and heavy aircrafts..thats why MMRCA[/QUOTE]

You are right in a way...
But Pakistan cannot afford expensive ones thats y they gone for Jf 17
India can aford to buy expensive ones,,,,so y wasting time in LCa..


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## nForce

> You are right in a way...
> But Pakistan cannot afford expensive ones thats y they gone for Jf 17
> India can aford to buy expensive ones,,,,so y wasting time in LCa..



did u actually go through what XiniX actually posted??? A proper Airforce needs a mixture of various kinds of fighters to suit its needs...
Su-30MKI is a heavy height air superiority fighter,the mirages and Mig-29 fit in the category of medium weight fighters.LCA is a lightweight interceptor that will replace India's aging fleet of Mig-21.....Thats where it fits in


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## Storm Force

India Air Force MIX/BALANCE strategy,.by 2020 

230-270 Heavey twin engined multi role su30mki. Long range massive load geared towards air superiority with TVC and 8 BVRs but can be great mari time strike plane and cruise missle carriers. Very useful when doubling up at sea with mig29k for carrier support operations and air defense over china,s long borders. (typical combat range 1200miles radius)

126 mmrca is a multi role plat form envisaged to be more geared towards strike capability but must have aesa radar and great bvr weapons. The mmrca will act like cricket captains directing operations from afar and stand off strike weapons are a must. This is why many think F18S/H will win mmrca. TOT upto 50&#37; and access to western tech is important in the deal worth $10nbillion+
(typical range 800miles radius)

LCA TEJAS single engined multi role fighter but geared towards air defense. short range very agile very cost effective and good CAS capability. TO replace over 250 mig21s that currently perform the same role (typical range 400 miles)


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## sancho

Speeder 2 said:


> *PAF's decision to use single engine fighter is stragetic and a smart choice.* It's not the idea to counter relatively far bigger India $ for $ to start with as many forummers here would untintentionally assume in such VS discussion. I can imagine that the decision is based on the geo location, financial resources, parts availability, maintainance, etc whole host of issues.



The fact that PAF was interested in Rafale shows that they would twin engine fighters if it would be possible, so there is no strategy behind using single engine fighters onle.
Single engine fighters are cheaper in unit and maintenance costs and should fit better in PAFs budget, also not every twin engine fighter is on offer for PAF, F15, Su 30s, J11?. However, the point was twin engine fighters does have advantages and it wouldn't be bad to have one for sure.



Speeder 2 said:


> I think it's most efficient for Pakistan to fully absorb techs and large scale production of JF-17 (with continuous more indigenious upgrades, etc.), perfect operations of F-16 blk 52, and being fully commited to J-10B(JF-20),



This combo won't be bad, imo especially J10B has good potential, but the simple fact that PLAAF also is aiming for twin engine fighters in future too (J11B, maybe twin engine J10 and J-XX of course), proves that any major Air Force wants good twin engine fighters on the high end, while single engine fighters will mainly be used as work horses. That is not different with PAF, or those countries I mentioned before, if PAF gets the chance (and sooner or latter they will), they will buy twin engine fighters too, even in small numbers. For now J10/F16 and JF 17 combo has to be enough.



Speeder 2 said:


> Nonetheless, as what a seasoned boxer walking into a ring would like to think, an elegantly intergrated, fully commited and well tested fighting platform, simple it may look, is almost always more deadly than a combination of a little bit of every tricks under the sun as IAF has, which looks fancy on paper yet remains unneccesarily complicated (a nightmare from both real-fight operation and maintainance POV) thus less effective on the contrary in reality.



Mh, then I would as myself why PLAAF has so many different single and twin engine fighters if such a simple mix would be enough? 
And how good IAF is, belongs to a different thread I would say, imo they don't bother too much with PAF, but more keeps focusing on PLAAF.


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## SBD-3



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## SQ8

nForce said:


> did u actually go through what XiniX actually posted??? A proper Airforce needs a mixture of various kinds of fighters to suit its needs...
> Su-30MKI is a heavy height air superiority fighter,the mirages and Mig-29 fit in the category of medium weight fighters.LCA is a lightweight interceptor that will replace India's aging fleet of Mig-21.....Thats where it fits in



Then those Americans must be really stupid to go for a two fighter mix. The F-22 and the F-35.
So must be the Brits, and the Israeli's, and the French..my god.. what idiots. All trying to bring down the number of types they operate. 
These guys at PAF are total idiots following these amateurs. bringing down their fleet to just three platforms.

An airforce needs operational effectiveness and not many things for many jobs. If the IAF could find a single fighter to do all those things it wants it would probably do it. So as a compromise it chose to do the smart thing and go for a heavy-medium mix. The LCA is a choke ball the DRDO and MoD is trying to shove down everybody's throat.
If they wanted a light interceptor they should have just asked for the T-50 trainer. nothing better than that for interception and I thought the MKI was multirole?? Buying a 45 mil jet just to use it for air superiority seems stupid.. unless it can do much more than that and it does. Its supposed to strike deep, clear the air, take out radars and defend airspace. 
The whole concept of the MRCA was to provide a Multirole jet able to replace four different types in the IAF inventory. So eventually in the end the Mig-29's,M2K's and the Jaguars can be phased out when they reach the end of their shelf life without any loss in capability, by which time the FGFA should be ready and take the load off air superiority from the MKI. The MRCA should be good at DCA,CAS,Interdiction, Deep Strike and SEAD and DEAD. So while the MKI delivers the body punches the MRCA gives the knife cuts. 
Having more types means more headaches in terms of logistics and type certifications for maintainers.

The JF-17 is supposed to be Pakistan's all round puncher. Its supposed to do DCA,CAP,CAS,BAI,Strike,SEAD and the Interceptions within its operational radius. So in essence we got everything our Mirages,A-5's,F-7's and even some stuff the F-16 does. Its a jack of all trades, what it was meant to be. Neat isn't it. It means that a Jf-17 from Peshawar can land at Sargodha for a problem and not worry about the technicians there not knowing what to do.
Seems being forced to do something was actually a good omen. 
I think that was the Idea with the LCA too, and now its gone so bad there is already talk of a Mk2 with this one being labeled as an Interceptor..and I thought the idea of purpose built interceptors was a thing of the past.

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## Skywalker

CanadianPad said:


> i agree.... try to spend money wisely then spend on defence.
> every year military comes out with these big budget items..... where is the money for that.
> India can spend ..let them spend.They can certainly afford it.
> *Canada only has F-18's..... they dont go out and spend cause they dont have to.*
> Defence needs changes with time.......its time Pak military look at its defence differently.



Good joke, can you tell me how many enemies does Canada have???


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## Storm Force

Santro its good post and some useful posts. 

With regards nos of combat types

PAF currently wil end up with 3 different single engined fighters ie J10 F16/52 & Thunder. 

If the Thunder gets the AESA radar and euro weapons has they are looking for all 3 will be fairly comparable withy very similar mission profile. 

WHY 3 TYPES.... ALL OF SAME CLASS WEIGHT RANGE AND WEAPONS. ???


At least with IAF which too will end up with just 3 types 

SU30MKI MMRCA & LCA they are diffrent weights ranges and different technology/ giving variety of punches and costs. 


For a very large air force of over 35 sqds and 650+ fighters you need minimum 3 combat types.


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## SomeGuy

Storm Force said:


> WHY 3 TYPES.... ALL OF SAME CLASS WEIGHT RANGE AND WEAPONS. ???



Thunder because it's cheap and will make up the numbers and provide some quality.

F-16 because of their long history within PAF and the support and maintenance infrastructure already in place.

J-10B to provide quality and numbers and in case of any geopolitical problems associated with F-16.


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## nForce

santro said:


> Then those Americans must be really stupid to go for a two fighter mix. The F-22 and the F-35.
> So must be the Brits, and the Israeli's, and the French..my god.. what idiots. All trying to bring down the number of types they operate. These guys at PAF are total idiots following these amateurs. bringing down their fleet to just three platforms.


 the requirement of different countries are different.Requirements of Indian Air Force cannot be decided on the basis of requirement of Air Forces of other countries.The countries that u r talking about dont share hostile borders as vast as that of India.So,while we know that Su-30 MKI can perform as a potent interceptor,at the same time we also need to keep in mind that it has different tasks to perform.Its role is to perform as a primary strike fighter in the front row,while LCA will perform as a short range interceptor....The question is not why 3 type and why not two types...the question is what suits ur needs...And let us not talk about J-35 here ..It is specifically built to perform its multirole operations like close air support,tactical bombing and air defense missions.




> An airforce needs operational effectiveness and not many things for many jobs. If the IAF could find a single fighter to do all those things it wants it would probably do it. So as a compromise it chose to do the smart thing and go for a heavy-medium mix. The LCA is a choke ball the DRDO and MoD is trying to shove down everybody's throat.
> If they wanted a light interceptor they should have just asked for the T-50 trainer. nothing better than that for interception and I thought the MKI was multirole?? Buying a 45 mil jet just to use it for air superiority seems stupid.. unless it can do much more than that and it does. Its supposed to strike deep, clear the air, take out radars and defend airspace.



Obviously IAF thinks a mix of aircraft will suit it better...If u have a fighter that is costly,limited in number and can strike deep inside enemy territories(something that IAF needs),then it is foolishness to make it perform within short ranges.A dedicated system will always perform better for a specific need.
And trainer aircraft s are for training purpose.It cannot be employed to perform active duty in the line..was that an attempted case of cracking a joke???Anyways the PAKFA will take some more time before it finally gets inducted. 



> The whole concept of the MRCA was to provide a Multirole jet able to replace four different types in the IAF inventory. So eventually in the end the Mig-29's,M2K's and the Jaguars can be phased out when they reach the end of their shelf life without any loss in capability, by which time the FGFA should be ready and take the load off air superiority from the MKI. The MRCA should be good at DCA,CAS,Interdiction, Deep Strike and SEAD and DEAD. So while the MKI delivers the body punches the MRCA gives the knife cuts.
> Having more types means more headaches in terms of logistics and type certifications for maintainers.



Quite true


> The JF-17 is supposed to be Pakistan's all round puncher. Its supposed to do DCA,CAP,CAS,BAI,Strike,SEAD and the Interceptions within its operational radius. So in essence we got everything our Mirages,A-5's,F-7's and even some stuff the F-16 does. Its a jack of all trades, what it was meant to be. Neat isn't it. It means that a Jf-17 from Peshawar can land at Sargodha for a problem and not worry about the technicians there not knowing what to do.
> Seems being forced to do something was actually a good omen.



PAF has entirely different requirements I think.Over the years,the PAF has concentrated mainly on building up a fleet that will help it to maintain air superiority over its own lands,and I think JF-17 can do that job.Though it lacks the range and maneuverability like the Su-30 MKI but again,a fighter doesnt really need these capabilities if its primary role is to defend the airspace...U see,the role is quite important...



> I think that was the Idea with the LCA too, and now its go ne so bad there is already talk of a Mk2 with this one being labeled as an Interceptor..and I thought the idea of purpose built interceptors was a thing of the past.



Development is systematic and progressive,my friend.It never really stops in one place.The Americans developed the F-16,and did they actually stop there.NO!...They went ahead for the development of other jets like F-22 and F-35...New things will always come up,thats the way it is....what else did u expect???

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## Parashuram1

Skywalker said:


> Good joke, can you tell me how many enemies does Canada have???


Sir, first of all sorry to intervene in this Pakistan vs India club, (but I do this to know more about South Asian dynamics). Since you highlighted Canada's virtually nil enemies, I'd be curious to ask; apart from New Delhi, who else is possibly your enemy in the region?

From reports posted on PDF, China seems to be a great strategic ally of yours, Afghanistan is not in a position to threaten you, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan have no dispute with you, Iran is also unconcerned about what Pakistan does. Then why is there such a worry and concern with just one enemy? 

Comparing this to states like Israel, I think your armed forces should be relatively comfortable that they have only one country to worry about. Isn't it?


Back to the topic: I'd say that Gripen NG would be a perfect addition to Pakistani arsenal (my favourite to be added on ChAF's inventory). Since your role is indicating a defensive role against any potential aggression, given by your country's geography, Gripen is a good choice. Powerful engine, neutral country's product, good armament and weapons package. Am I missing something? 

And I don't think Americans can put a sanction on you through Gripen. Sweden (fiercely neutral like us) would do its nut to undo the sanctions on a client country.


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## sancho

Parashuram1 said:


> Back to the topic: I'd say that Gripen NG would be a perfect addition to Pakistani arsenal (my favourite to be added on ChAF's inventory). Since your role is indicating a defensive role against any potential aggression, given by your country's geography, Gripen is a good choice. Powerful engine, neutral country's product, good armament and weapons package. Am I missing something?
> 
> And I don't think Americans can put a sanction on you through Gripen. Sweden (fiercely neutral like us) would do its nut to undo the sanctions on a client country.



Are you aware that the engine is from US as well as most weapons, also critical parts like radar, IRST, are from Italy/UK? So there are a lot of parts that could be sanctioned, be it for PAF, or IAF.
Gripen NG generally is a good fighter, but not a good choice for PAF, or IAF, because PAF already has enough similar fighters and IAF will have LCA for the same roles too.
Why should PAF pay $70-90 millions (system price depending on ordered numbers) for a Gripen NG, if they can simply by more J10Bs for way less money?
For Swiss instead it is for sure the most logical choice for air policing and replacing F5s, but still I think the Rafale will make it there too. Competitions like this will not decided by logic only, but by politics and economy too!


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## hellofriends

if india select Eurofighter than pakistan has no possible answer to MRCA. because eurofighter is best operational aircraft of the world.


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## sancho

hellofriends said:


> if india select Eurofighter than pakistan has no possible answer to MRCA. because eurofighter is best operational aircraft of the world.



And IAF would have just another A2A fighter besides MKI, Mig 29, M2k, LCA and in future Pak Fa, not to forget at similar costs as a Pak Fa, so it does not really make sense.


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## flanker143

> if india select Eurofighter than pakistan has no possible answer to MRCA. because eurofighter is best operational aircraft of the world.



5 gen fighter r an exception........

is it even better than su 30 mki ??? i seriously doubt that one !!!!


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## jagjitnatt

flanker143 said:


> 5 gen fighter r an exception........
> 
> is it even better than su 30 mki ??? i seriously doubt that one !!!!



Typhoon is better than MKI on a lot of aspects. MKI is big powerful and maneuverable, but Typhoon is more more advanced in countermeasures and avionics


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> 5 gen fighter r an exception........
> 
> is it even better than su 30 mki ??? i seriously doubt that one !!!!



Clearly! It has a verly low RCS, long range radar, SC, super maneuverability with better t/w ratios, latest avionics and weapons, in A2A MKI won't have much chances, if at all the Su35BM (geared for A2A mainly).


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## flanker143

so if eft gets inducted ..... is it going to be our prime air superiority ????


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## keyboard

flanker143 said:


> so if eft gets inducted ..... is it going to be our prime air superiority ????



I dnt think so cause IAF induct Mkis for that role


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## jagjitnatt

flanker143 said:


> so if eft gets inducted ..... is it going to be our prime air superiority ????



It won't be the prime because we would have a lot more MKIs than Typhoons, but they would serve the same purpose as the MKIs.


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## Haanzo

^^^ parashuram 1 ...i dont believe canada should have an airforce .....coz you guys come under NORAD net ...so you are pretty much covered up by the big bro


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## Aimar

sancho said:


> Clearly! It has a verly low RCS, long range radar, SC, super maneuverability with better t/w ratios, latest avionics and weapons, in A2A MKI won't have much chances, if at all the Su35BM (geared for A2A mainly).



what about the stealth of Typhoon ???


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## sancho

Aimar said:


> what about the stealth of Typhoon ???



Not real stealth, very low RCS fits better, "Estimations" available on the net says betweeen 0.1 and 0.5m² ! ! !

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## farhan_9909

Very very simple answer to this thread

the only Possible Answer to All Indian aircraft be it FGFA,MMRCA,MKI,MCA is To start a indegenous 5th generation aircraft project and make it operation till 2025.

May fellow pakistani please accept that Indian air force is superior to PAF in all aspect and if we want to match them then Join J-xx or 5th generation indegenous aircraft project.j-10B is nothing bt a sitting duck against indian aircrafts.


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## Aimar

^^^till that time China will complete its 5th gen fighter prgramme and then you can get it easily..why to waste money and time on research and development ??


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## farhan_9909

Aimar said:


> ^^^till that time China will complete its 5th gen fighter prgramme and then you can get it easily..why to waste money and time on research and development ??



i think it is nt money wasting and time.
because we india and pakistan both are Nuclear nation and we hav to self reliance in all weapons.

even if we got our indegenous 5th generation aircraft in 2035 then it is better.

---------- Post added at 09:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

To all indian aircraft except PAK fa RAfale is better choice against them
and to PAk fa j-xx or indegenous 5th generation aircraft


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## hellofriends

i think they can not counter mrca.. they can only counter mrca if they increase there defence budget by 20% of GDP.How can they spend $11 billion in 3-4 year.OH..god! one india type MRCA can crush entire pak Economy.


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## farhan_9909

hellofriends said:


> i think they can not counter mrca.. they can only counter mrca if they increase there defence budget by 20% of GDP.How can they spend $11 billion in 3-4 year.OH..god! one india type MRCA can crush entire pak Economy.



wats wrong with you?

current pak budget is 8Bn.so we can afford 10 Rafale per year bt now we spend almost our budget on WOT.this is the reason we are nt inducting any heavy fighter soon


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## nForce

^^^
I personally think that Pakistan is doing a great job so far as the war on terror is concerned.The defense budget spending on that purpose is quite justified...Yes,if Pakistan spends some more money reserve on then it can buy some more cool gadgets and stuff,but is that how a country is really run???I dont think so..Thinking from Pakistani point of view,I think that the defense spending for Pakistan is well balanced so far as the priorities are concerned...


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## Jigs

PAF is doing everything they can it looks like. The Eurofighter and F-35 would be great but currently that is not possible since the focus is on the JF-17 and FC-20. Even with those though India will still be ahead with the MKI and the MRCA. Plus the PAK-FA in the Future.


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## SBD-3

farhan_9909 said:


> wats wrong with you?
> 
> current pak budget is 8Bn.so we can afford 10 Rafale per year bt now we spend almost our budget on WOT.this is the reason we are nt inducting any heavy fighter soon



why are you getting so desperate....People in PAF are more concerned that you are my friend.....i don't know why did you thought of 5th Gen AC and that too indigenously. Look mate, we dont have either resources or the tech base for such an endeavor. Even India would not be able to do it domestically as you and some Indian posters think so. The real development of MCA is indirectly tied to FGFA (Russian Assistance). And since the first flight of PAK-FA I havent heard about any further developments. So until PAK-FA is not complete MCA's fate will be hanging in balance. In short don't get desperate. PAF will be more concerned about this than you


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## hellofriends

farhan_9909 said:


> wats wrong with you?
> 
> current pak budget is 8Bn.so we can afford 10 Rafale per year bt now we spend almost our budget on WOT.this is the reason we are nt inducting any heavy fighter soon



1 rafale is cost around $67 mn. it's mean 10 rafale is around 670mn and include maintenance cost and if i am not wrong pakistan is introducing approx 10 f-16 per year and your defence budget is around $8000 mn it's mean if u r buying 10 rafale per year than u have to cancel all the f-16 orders. it's mean pakistan can not compete mrca in near future.


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## hellofriends

hasnain0099 said:


> why are you getting so desperate....People in PAF are more concerned that you are my friend.....i don't know why did you thought of 5th Gen AC and that too indigenously. Look mate, we dont have either resources or the tech base for such an endeavor. Even India would not be able to do it domestically as you and some Indian posters think so. *The real development of MCA is indirectly tied to FGFA (Russian Assistance)*. And since the first flight of PAK-FA I havent heard about any further developments. So until PAK-FA is not complete MCA's fate will be hanging in balance. In short don't get desperate. PAF will be more concerned about this than you



oh....is that ISI report ?????


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## SQ8

"_And trainer aircraft s are for training purpose.It cannot be employed to perform active duty in the line..was that an attempted case of cracking a joke???_"

Uhh no..read about the T-50 sometime and you will realize its potential as a point defense interceptor in its A-50 form.
I crack jokes like this; "A horse walks into a bar...."



"_PAF has entirely different requirements I think.Over the years,the PAF has concentrated mainly on building up a fleet that will help it to maintain air superiority over its own lands,and I think JF-17 can do that job.Though it lacks the range and maneuverability like the Su-30 MKI but again,a fighter doesnt really need these capabilities if its primary role is to defend the airspace...U see,the role is quite important..._"

Where did the MKi and JF-17 comparison start up again??
And thats why we have something called multirole or are we still in the 70's here with dedicated equipment for everything. And where did you meet the PAF operations man telling you the primary role of the JF-17 is to defend the airspace. Heck the should have bought the F-7MF then, dont you think?, saved a lot of cash in the process instead of getting something that an perform the functions of four different types of aircraft with different roles

"_Development is systematic and progressive,my friend.It never really stops in one place.The Americans developed the F-16,and did they actually stop there.NO!...They went ahead for the development of other jets like F-22 and F-35...New things will always come up,thats the way it is....what else did u expect???_"

Yeah..but Id be damned if the F-16A was a failure and nobody wanted it and by the time it entered serviceit changed from the original "day only" fighter into the benchmark for multirole aircraft. 
And the last time a jet ran for limited production like that and a Mk2 was needed was the Fj-1 fury. So they went back to the drawing board and redid it using the airforce version.. What is DRDO going to use for "redoing" the LCA??.


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## SBD-3

hellofriends said:


> oh....is that ISI report ?????



its my opinion.....if you have a better one then put it here


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

typhoons are coming in south asia---


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## flanker143

> It won't be the prime because we would have a lot more MKIs than Typhoons, but they would serve the same purpose as the MKIs.



why use an weaker aircraft for air superiority when u got a better jet for that role and also air sup are always less in no.s 

also plzz tell if su 30 mki is gettin mlu , if yes then what is the proposed upgrade package ??? plzz tell... lukin frwrd tu ur rep...


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## Parashuram1

Haanzo said:


> ^^^ parashuram 1 ...i dont believe canada should have an airforce .....coz you guys come under NORAD net ...so you are pretty much covered up by the big bro


Tell that to the Canadians on this forum. . I believe it is more like in our case in Switzerland; policing and patrols rather than fighting full blown wars.


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## jagjitnatt

flanker143 said:


> why use an weaker aircraft for air superiority when u got a better jet for that role and also air sup are always less in no.s
> 
> also plzz tell if su 30 mki is gettin mlu , if yes then what is the proposed upgrade package ??? plzz tell... lukin frwrd tu ur rep...



MKI is not a weaker aircraft. It is on par with the Typhoon but both have different pros and cons.

MKI has a powerful radar, more weapons and its more maneuverable but the datalinks and the interface of Typhoon is unmatchable. The counter measures too are good in Typhoon, and not to forget the very low rcs.

Typhoon, and MKI both will be used in case need arises.

And yes, MKI will be getting an MLU but it will happen after 7-10 years, when as AESA radar and Smart skin would be ready for it.


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## nForce

santro said:


> Uhh no..read about the T-50 sometime and you will realize its potential as a point defense interceptor in its A-50 form.
> I crack jokes like this; "A horse walks into a bar...."



The KAI T-50 is a supersonic trainer aircraft,meant for training purposes only.I dont really see a point in buying a trainer aircraft and then again modifying it to suit a full fledged fighter.The A-50 is a light attack aircraft and IAF has options for that role in its inventory



> Where did the MKi and JF-17 comparison start up again??
> And thats why we have something called multirole or are we still in the 70's here with dedicated equipment for everything. And where did you meet the PAF operations man telling you the primary role of the JF-17 is to defend the airspace. Heck the should have bought the F-7MF then, dont you think?, saved a lot of cash in the process instead of getting something that an perform the functions of four different types of aircraft with different roles



An airforce builds up its inventory based on the immediate requirements.Analysis is not based upon some magically appearing aliens over the horizons.Thats where the comparison starts my friend..
A multirole fighter is a good idea and I dont doubt that,but at times we also need a dedicated system,because a dedicated system will be optimized for that particular role which will be its area of excellence.The idea is good enough.the cons part is u will have to maintain a lot of jets to do that.And I think the IAF has the capability as well as money to achieve that.




> Yeah..but Id be damned if the F-16A was a failure and nobody wanted it and by the time it entered serviceit changed from the original "day only" fighter into the benchmark for multirole aircraft.
> And the last time a jet ran for limited production like that and a Mk2 was needed was the Fj-1 fury. So they went back to the drawing board and redid it using the airforce version.. What is DRDO going to use for "redoing" the LCA??.



Redoing something is necessary when ur requirements change.The primary requirement for which LCA is needed is the necessity to replace the aging MiG-21 s.
Anyways systematic changes have been made in aerodynamics, electronics and engines to make it better.Obviously we will never get to know the trade secrets in its entirety,but some info about changes,and newer developments can be found here::

Link!!


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## SQ8

nForce said:


> The KAI T-50 is a supersonic trainer aircraft,meant for training purposes only.I dont really see a point in buying a trainer aircraft and then again modifying it to suit a full fledged fighter.The A-50 is a light attack aircraft and IAF has options for that role in its inventory
> 
> 
> 
> An Airforce builds up its inventory based on the immediate requirements.Analysis is not based upon some magically appearing aliens over the horizons.Thats where the comparison starts my friend..
> A multirole fighter is a good idea and I dont doubt that,but at times we also need a dedicated system,because a dedicated system will be optimized for that particular role which will be its area of excellence.The idea is good enough.the cons part is u will have to maintain a lot of jets to do that.And I think the IAF has the capability as well as money to achieve that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redoing something is necessary when ur requirements change.The primary requirement for which LCA is needed is the necessity to replace the aging MiG-21 s.
> Anyways systematic changes have been made in aerodynamics, electronics and engines to make it better.Obviously we will never get to know the trade secrets in its entirety,but some info about changes,and newer developments can be found here::
> 
> Link!!



The A-50 is not just a light attack aircraft, post this question on either AFM forum, or look up the manufacturers website.
"_KAI is developing a fighter version based on the T-50, called the F/A-50 for the RoKAF, which has a requirement for 60 aircraft to replace the F-5. It is planned that the F/A-50 will be fitted with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar_."

Now if the whole concept of dedicated roles are to be taken into account then why on earth is almost every Airforce in the world replacing its inventory with multirole fighters?. The only exception to that rule being Japan which has a pacifist constitution or maybe the F-22 which is more akin to the MKI as an air dominance fighter with a secondary strike role. If the IAF is considered as an exception to that rule as well then it should be looking for aircraft to specifically replace the Jaguar, the Mig-27 and the Mig-21. Yet somehow it wants an aircraft that does the job of all three. And surprisingly even the MKI is capable of performing these tasks quite well. 
So if a dedicated aircraft is the PAF's and IAF's modus operandi then they are going down the wrong road. One could argue that in some cases there are still dedicated interceptors going to be left in the PAF's inventory in the form of the PG's but that too is because we just bought them as a quick fix for the fighter gap and they are good close in dogfighters and so letting them stick around is simply cost effective(they are actually quite cheap).
Where does the same go for replacing an interceptor with another interceptor developed at a humongous cost when just buying another interceptor which was available would have done the same?
IF you are confusing dedicated aircraft with those that are slightly better at one job than the other your argument will stick.
Because then the Typhoon is still at its best fighting A2A, even though its a multirole fighter. But can the RAF be accused of buying a dedicated interceptor since the Typhoon F.2 is configured via software to be focused on A2A?.


So if aliens were heard for their advice then the only benefit of the mucked LCA program is the massive pool of engineers and technical knowledge gained in the development process. If redoing something is needed and if the requirement changes you do it well before pressing ahead with production and making your Air force buy something it really does not need. 
The F-16 was designed as a lightweight fighter with just daytime air defense in mind, when it entered service it was much more than that. Even then the block 1 F-16 differed very slightly from the YF-16 prototype. And set the benchmark for maneuverability. 

Again the aliens will still agree that the LCA is truly a one for one replacement for the Mig-21. It looks like a small mirage 2000, turns like one and can be seen falling out of the sky after pulling a tight G turn much faster than a mirage 2000 does( the aliens saw this on youtube). The only actual way of improving the LCA would be to fit canards on it reduce the sweep.. but wouldn't that make it look like the Gripen..?The Aliens are confused

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## sancho

jagjitnatt said:


> MKI is not a weaker aircraft. It is on par with the Typhoon but both have different pros and cons.
> 
> MKI has a powerful radar, *more weapons and its more maneuverable* but the datalinks and the interface of Typhoon is unmatchable. The counter measures too are good in Typhoon, and not to forget the very low rcs.



More weapons in terms of variety, or numbers? Because even with 3 fuel tanks EF can carry 10 AAMs and I have some doubts about the maneuverability too.
The only fields where the MKI has a clear advantages at the moment is A2G and range.


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## aliyusuf

The Typhoon is designed to do sustained 9g maneuvers in combat. It also has super-cruise and has lower RCS than most 4th gen fighters.

It should be rated higher than the MKI in avionics and maneuverability.

It will be a quantum leap in technology in south asia.

However it is far better in A2A than in A2G roles.

But it was my understanding that one of the prime requirements for the MRCA would be to have TOT. Will that happen if the IAF goes the Typhoon route?

Also wasn't the IAF looking for something that would fall between the LCA (Teja) and HCA (MKI) in capability? 

My own gut feeling would be that Rafael (will come with full TOT if selected) or SH foots the bill of requirements more than the Typhoon ... unless the requirements have been revised (then Typhoon makes more sense).

Sorry for going off topic ... just wanted to share my views on this.

Regards

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## Nahraf

I think Pakistan has to concentrate on JF-17 development and J-10B induction. Pakistan needs a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule. What counts in war is the number of fighters one can launch every hour, every day, day after day, with full confidence and ease of operation. F-16 Block 50 will be frontline fighter. In the future may be will induct JAS-39 NG Gripen or Rafale


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## Storm Force

IAF is looking for a multi role MMRCA whose particular strength is ATTACK/STRIKE performance. 

NOT A2A. IAF already have the best most advanced A2A fighter in South Asia with the su30mki. 

This requirement for strike fighter is too replace the MIG27M currently nos of 120. MMRCA is 126 PLANES minimum vy 2020. 

For this reason F18 S/H followed by Rafael and then F16IN have been the 3 front runnners. 

F18/SH will win because of 5 reasons posted below. 

1. It has the best strike performance of all 6 contenders in MMRCA
2. Price wise it is cheaper than both Typhoon and rafael 
3. In service til 2030 WITH usa And allies 
4. USA/ INDIA long term strategic alliance is dependant on America winning MMRCA
5. usa will grant india 50&#37; TOT with no restrictions on use 

All will be revealed during barack obamas state visit to india in November 2010-

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## Storm Force

The question remains. 

What will PAFs answer be to 230 su30mki + 126 F18 super hornets. E/F >????????


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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> The question remains.
> 
> What will PAFs answer be to 230 su30mki + 126 F18 super hornets. E/F >????????



Nothing. 

Hope all Indians would be happy now.

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## Iggy

TaimiKhan said:


> Nothing.
> 
> Hope all Indians would be happy now.



I am certainly happy with your reply .

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## TaimiKhan

seiko said:


> I am certainly happy with your reply .



aahhh, good to be seeing you back, i remember to have suspended you, couldn't resist the temptation to miss Pakistan bashing


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## RobbieS

Storm Force said:


> IAF is looking for a multi role MMRCA whose particular strength is ATTACK/STRIKE performance.
> 
> NOT A2A. IAF already have the best most advanced A2A fighter in South Asia with the su30mki.
> 
> This requirement for strike fighter is too replace the MIG27M currently nos of 120. MMRCA is 126 PLANES minimum vy 2020.
> 
> For this reason F18 S/H followed by Rafael and then F16IN have been the 3 front runnners.
> 
> F18/SH will win because of 5 reasons posted below.
> 
> 1. It has the best strike performance of all 6 contenders in MMRCA
> 2. Price wise it is cheaper than both Typhoon and rafael
> 3. In service til 2030 WITH usa And allies
> 4. USA/ INDIA long term strategic alliance is dependant on America winning MMRCA
> 5. usa will grant india 50% TOT with no restrictions on use
> 
> All will be revealed during barack obamas state visit to india in November 2010-



F/A 18 is indeed the best suited for the MRCA role and is definitely ahead of the Rafale. In my view the only problem is its country of origin and the issues it brings. 

First of all, the sale would have to be approved by the Congress. Though going by the recent Indo-US Nuke deal that shouldnt be a problem, but you never know. 

Secondly, the sale would come with some restrictions. Though the AESA radar and the ToT issues have been tackled there might be certain limiting restrictions put by US. 

Thirdly, there's always the threat of sanctions and its effect on availability of spares.

Last but not the least, the Left is still strong in certain pockets in India and together with a desperate opposition they can make a huge issue out of "selling out to the Yanks."

If all the above issues are sorted out, I would love to see the Hornet in the Saffron, White and Green.


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## Iggy

TaimiKhan said:


> aahhh, good to be seeing you back, i remember to have suspended you, couldn't resist the temptation to miss Pakistan bashing



Yea I said 2 months and you banned me for 2 days  ..should i use some racial comments to get a ban now  ...


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## Iggy

TaimiKhan said:


> Yaar don't say such things, thread will get flooded by you know who, and will get derailed.
> 
> Simple ans is, Pakistan is doing nothing to counter Indian MKIs & MRCAs or Pak Fa. Let them have a field day with such news.



Hey come on yaar.start a dicussion..what will be the possible counter of PAF..any future possible buy to counter it?


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## SurvivoR

Walay dai tor kuno na yaregay sa? 

I just stated about the PAF and IAF... Don't remember any one from PAF surrendering to anyone, however it did give a nice spanking to the IAF as usual.

As long as MRCA is concerned can anyone tell me how many MRCAs have been inducted into the IAF? 

... Exactly! When you come to a decision then come here to our forum and ask what PAF's reply gonna be... But whatever its gonna be you will be crying as usual cry babies.


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## TaimiKhan

seiko said:


> Hey come on yaar.start a dicussion..what will be the possible counter of PAF..any future possible buy to counter it?



Yaar 600+ posts have gone by and this same discussion is going on. 

What else left to talk about. 

India will have air superiority, they will win the air war, Pakistan kae Allah hi Hafiz. 

Still as you are a friend, simple answer. 

F-16s & J-10s are gonna be fielded against the MKIs & MRCA winner, it doesn't matters what quality they are of, but PAF has the confidence in them and are setting them to counter these 2 jets. 

JF-17s are gonna be for rest of the fleet. 

Hopefully Pak-Fa will also get a counter too.

Beside that, PAF has many other programs and plans, but all of them depend on the availability of resources and sellers.

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## mjnaushad

Who won the MRCA....Anybody have any info...??


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## welcome

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> typhoons are coming in south asia---



only in india....


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## sancho

aliyusuf said:


> T
> But it was my understanding that one of the prime requirements for the MRCA would be to have TOT. Will that happen if the IAF goes the Typhoon route?
> 
> Also wasn't the IAF looking for something that would fall between the LCA (Teja) and HCA (MKI) in capability?
> 
> My own gut feeling would be that Rafael (will come with full TOT if selected) or SH foots the bill of requirements more than the Typhoon ... unless the requirements have been revised (then Typhoon makes more sense).
> 
> Sorry for going off topic ... just wanted to share my views on this.
> 
> Regards



Hi aliyusuf, you are right, although EF is superior to MKI, there is no need for IAF to field another air superiority fighter. The competition is for multi role fighters and they even field dedicated weapon trials, which makes clear that not only A2A weapons are important. In this field as you correctly pointed out the Rafale and the F18SH are the clear front runners, while EF is very limited.
EF is also offered whith high ammount of ToT, as well as source codes, even the engine is on offer for LCA MK2, not to mention good economical advantages, but its operational limitations will make it not useful for IAF! That alone will be a major problem, besides the cost factor of course, because it is a very expensive fighter. 



Storm Force said:


> 4. USA/ INDIA long term strategic alliance is dependant on America winning MMRCA
> 5. usa will grant india 50% TOT with no restrictions on use



These points are wrong, because there are several other competitions running, where the US have good chances to win and because the problems with P8I, C130 regarding secure comunications, shows that the US have several restrictions, even if it is only a transport aircraft. So when it comes to a figher, things will be even more diffiucult and 50% ToT is also more than doubtful.

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## sancho

Regarding PAF, I know several Pakistani members wants to reduce the dependence on the US, but on the other hand they are also more than happy about new F16 Block 52s.
So now lets pretend IAF will go for an European fighter in MMRCA and the US would offer F18SH, possibly as a replacement for older Mirage fighters, would that be interesting?

Exellent strike capabilities, long range AESA radar, twin engine fighter with long range and maritime patrol capabilies. It is not deniable, that it would fit to J10Bs and numbers of JF 17 and F16s behind them. Not to forget, that from all twin engine fighters in the MMRCA competition, the F18SH is the cheapest one that would be available for PAF.


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## Mani2020

sancho said:


> Regarding PAF, I know several Pakistani members wants to reduce the dependence on the US, but on the other hand they are also more than happy about new F16 Block 52s.
> *So now lets pretend IAF will go for an European fighter in MMRCA and the US would offer F18SH, possibly as a replacement for older Mirage fighters, would that be interesting?*
> 
> Exellent strike capabilities, long range AESA radar, twin engine fighter with long range and maritime patrol capabilies. It is not deniable, that it would fit to J10Bs and numbers of JF 17 and F16s behind them. Not to forget, that from all twin engine fighters in the MMRCA competition, *the F18SH is the cheapest one that would be available for PAF.*




Sir F-18's were offered to PAF by US way back in 80's along with f-16's PAF had test flight both aircrafts but at the end PAF opted for f-16' instead of f-18's because PAF doctrine is based upon single engine fighters easy to maintain and operate . So i doubt PAF will go for them even if they are offered by US


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## sancho

Mani2020 said:


> [/B]
> 
> Sir F-18's were offered to PAF by US way back in 80's along with f-16's PAF had test flight both aircrafts but at the end PAF opted for f-16' instead of f-18's because PAF doctrine is based upon single engine fighters easy to maintain and operate . So i doubt PAF will go for them even if they are offered by US


But that were F18 Hornets, without AESA radar, F16 and F18 already uses the same weapons, so the advantage would only be more range, but higher costs on the other side. F18SH around 2015, alongside J10Bs would be a different story and a good combo imo.

Btw, don't call me sir, Sancho is more than enough.


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## aliyusuf

sancho said:


> Regarding PAF, I know several Pakistani members wants to reduce the dependence on the US, but on the other hand they are also more than happy about new F16 Block 52s.
> So now lets pretend IAF will go for an European fighter in MMRCA and the US would offer F18SH, possibly as a replacement for older Mirage fighters, would that be interesting?
> 
> Excellent strike capabilities, long range AESA radar, twin engine fighter with long range and maritime patrol capabilities. It is not deniable, that it would fit to J10Bs and numbers of JF 17 and F16s behind them. Not to forget, that from all twin engine fighters in the MMRCA competition, the F18SH is the cheapest one that would be available for PAF.



It is my assessment that the PAF is all for acquiring advanced western systems, sub-systems and components, in order to enhance the capabilities of the JF-17s and the FC-20s ... as part of their on-going plans and also as a counter to the IAF MMRCA acquisitions. Preferably with TOT. Or ... they may end up getting the same sort of systems from China... albeit slightly later-on.

However, I don't see the PAF going for any new western Fighter, after the F-16 Block-52 deal. Not at least till around 2025 or so. Unless they are faced with an extraordinary offer (from the west) with limited or no strings. Which, for now seems unlikely.

Also if we go back a few years we find the previous ACM expressing that we were always considering the F-16 as a bonus option for the PAF in the years to come, if we get it great otherwise it would be FC-20 and JF-17 in revised numbers.

I believe that they are looking to maintain their credible minimum deterrence levels primarily via the bolstering of their indigenous production capabilities and thru the induction of equipment that carry no strings and are sanction proof.

So I expect to see an increased level of Chinese collaboration & assistance well into the foreseeable future. Due to this, it is even possible, that we might even see the J-XX or some stealthy variant type based on the FC-20 or JF-17 to counter the PAK-FA sometime b/w 2018-to-2023.

Just my 2 cents.

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## Mani2020

sancho said:


> But that were F18 Hornets, without AESA radar, F16 and F18 already uses the same weapons, so the advantage would only be more range, but higher costs on the other side. F18SH around 2015, alongside J10Bs would be a different story and a good combo imo.
> 
> Btw, don't call me sir, Sancho is more than enough.



But why to go for an aircraft which can use same weapons and belongs to same country of origin?its just waste of resources and also we dont want to get burdened with US systems as we did in 80's , as far as AESA is concerned f-16 radars can be replaced by an AESA radar in somewhere around 2012

But as far as um concerned i have a gut feeling that after MRCA deal we might see something out of blue,if Rafale's got rejected than may b we can sneak into it.As far as price tag is concerned i dont think its as big issue as we have made if we can buy 40million f-16's than Rafale is a possibility, Army can also divert there funds to PAF as they have done before ,But this is my own perception no one needs to agree with me neither i want arguments


BTW i called u sir coz i was giving you the respect lol but i think u couldnot digest it


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## sancho

Mani2020 said:


> But why to go for an aircraft which can use same weapons and belongs to same country of origin?its just waste of resources and also we dont want to get burdened with US systems as we did in 80's , as far as AESA is concerned f-16 radars can be replaced by an AESA radar in somewhere around 2012



But not for PAF right? The older F16s gets MLU now and the newer will get a new radar only with the next major upgrade, which takes some more years. Not to mention that it hardly will be as good as the AGP 79, so there are indeed some advantages they would offer. I just was curious, because many Pakistani members wants a twin engine figher even and it wouldn't be a bad idea.



Mani2020 said:


> But as far as um concerned i have a gut feeling that after MRCA deal we might see something out of blue,if Rafale's got rejected than may b we can sneak into it.As far as price tag is concerned i dont think its as big issue as we have made if we can buy 40million f-16's than Rafale is a possibility, Army can also divert there funds to PAF as they have done before ,But this is my own perception no one needs to agree with me neither i want arguments



The F16s cost nearly twice that much, not to mention how expensive the Rafales are, that's why I said F18SH would at least be more cost effective.



Mani2020 said:


> BTW i called u sir coz i was giving you the respect lol but i think u couldnot digest it



I know what you meant, but it just makes me feel so old.


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## nomi007

F-15E Strike Eagle,euro-fighter,or Saab gripen ng will be best decision against mmrca


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## AVIAN

Mani2020 said:


> But why to go for an aircraft which can use same weapons and belongs to same country of origin?its just waste of resources and also we dont want to get burdened with US systems as we did in 80's , as far as AESA is concerned f-16 radars can be replaced by an AESA radar in somewhere around 2012
> 
> But as far as um concerned i have a gut feeling that after MRCA deal we might see something out of blue,if Rafale's got rejected than may b we can sneak into it.As far as price tag is concerned i dont think its as big issue as we have made if we can buy 40million f-16's than Rafale is a possibility, Army can also divert there funds to PAF as they have done before ,But this is my own perception no one needs to agree with me neither i want arguments
> 
> 
> BTW i called u sir coz i was giving you the respect lol but i think u couldnot digest it



You didn't buy those F-16's rather US provided the same as a part of its war on terror mission. By the way, have you got any idea about Rafale's price tag? if you had any then you may not have made such comment. Heck India need to shell out close to $2 Billions to upgrade its Mirage-2000 fleet. Having a willingness of having your favourite jet in your airforce doesn't help concerned authorities to work out possible budget especially when it comes high price tag Rafale.


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## Mani2020

AVIAN said:


> *You didn't buy those F-16's rather US provided the same as a part of its war on terror mission*. By the way, have you got any idea about Rafale's price tag? if you had any then you may not have made such comment. Heck India need to shell out close to $2 Billions to upgrade its Mirage-2000 fleet. Having a willingness of having your favourite jet in your airforce doesn't help concerned authorities to work out possible budget especially when it comes high price tag Rafale.



Um sick of of continuously providing same answers to stupid questions and i have provided so much links for that .This is last time um saying that we are purchasing these f-16's with our money yeah Hell we signed a deal of *5 billion dollars* with US to provide new f-16's c/d block52 and related equipment plus MLU of our existing fleet.

You fanboy just go through the thread you will find it and if dont wana go through thread check out some neutral sources like Janes defence or even f-16.net.Next time dont come up with stupid claims

N yeah i know the price tag of Rafale and why ur a$$ is itching,the money is our problem not yours so stop yelling ,nuts


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## IceCold

AVIAN said:


> You didn't buy those F-16's rather US provided the same as a part of its war on terror mission.



No actually we did contrary to what most Indians believe or should i say like to believe.
Here is from another thread:



> Pakistan officials paid $1.4 billion for the 18 new aircraft, in addition to $1.3 billion in upgrades to its existing F-16 fleet, which are to begin being delivered in 2012, Major Robbins said.



Here is the link to the thread and in itself to the article:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/63051-delivery-new-f-16s-pakistan-shows-deepening-relations.html


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## SMC

Yeah, unfortunately for the infinite time, I am hearing an Indian saying that we got F-16 from aid and this definitely won't be the last time I will be hearing this.


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## RazorMC

i feel that we should put more resources into developing our own rangeof aircraft. i know it will take a lot of time and money but it's better to start now than later.
we have the brains for it, we just need the will. i also support more defense systems like radars and SAMs rather than aircraft. it can hold the line until we get our own hardware out.


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## Storm Force

I think MMRCA question/answer can be put to one side for now. SIMPLY BECAUSE indians have not ordered the MMRCA as yet. 

How can PAF answer the question if the indians are stil dithering which MMRCA. ????

but on a serious note.

PAF needs to answer 272 su30mki. This is no joke the indians are already feilding 120 today as we speak. 

To date the only combat plane in PAF inventory that comes even close to going 1v1 IS the 18 x F16.52s which are just arriving as we speak. 

The remaining 44 F16s are very basic falcons block 15/30 even with MLU they are no where near SU30MKI... 

i CANT UNDERSTAND WHY PAF have ordered so few F16/52s surely they need 120+


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## IceCold

Storm Force said:


> i CANT UNDERSTAND WHY PAF have ordered so few F16/52s surely they need 120+



You cant or you wont? There is a difference. PAF knows what threat the country faces and contrary to your misinformed and lack of information F-16s after MLU will not remain very basic as you would like to see them and besides contrary to your believe F-16 isnt the only jet capable of handling the mighty MKI. This isnt a dog fighting era anymore and i have repeatedly said there are many other factors involved in the battle theater that would change the out come of the aerial war. 
So for the last time quit comparing on 1 to 1 basis. It gets annoying reading the same thing over and over again.


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## Storm Force

Ice cold Wat other PAF fighter is equal to F16/52 and close to the SU30MKI in all round multi role capability


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## RazorMC

the su-30 is a formidable aircraft indeed. at the moment only the block 52 is capable of taking it head-on.

but in the bvr arena PAF has a bigger choice since our mirages and jf-17 are also able to engage in bvr combat so the su-30 may not be such a big threat after all.

btw the su-30 is a bit large so the f-16 will always be a better dogfighter.


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## Nav

PAF is defensive force, and for defensive purpose Paf must be looking for More F-16 blk 52+ , possible Westren upgrade of Jf-17 , and 100 + j-10b's ,


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## Storm Force

In close WVR engagement OR dog fighting the TVC su30mki will beat the F16 any days of the week. 

THE aoa (angel of attack) thanks to TVC twin engines and twice as many WVR MISSLES more jammers and multiple electronic suites will give the mki the victory. 

SU30MKI is agility is extreme.


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## Hasnain2009

Storm Force said:


> In close WVR engagement OR dog fighting the TVC su30mki will beat the F16 any days of the week.
> 
> THE aoa (angel of attack) thanks to TVC twin engines and twice as many WVR MISSLES more jammers and multiple electronic suites will give the mki the victory.
> 
> SU30MKI is agility is extreme.



I think u know nothing abt F-16 Block 52's Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System?

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## Trichy

Hasnain2009 said:


> I think u know nothing abt F-16 Block 52's Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System?



ha ha ha, Su-30MKI also have *HMS*

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## Mani2020

Trichy said:


> ha ha ha, Su-30MKI also have *HMS*



He never said that mki dont have HMS ,he only informed about the f-16 ones


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## Dash

Hasnain2009 said:


> I think u know nothing abt F-16 Block 52's Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System?


please tell me about it...


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## TaimiKhan

Dash said:


> please tell me about it...



Helmet mounted display - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## shanixee

GUYS can any 1 plz think for a moment and see where this thread is going. the simple question is

PAF POSSIBLE ANSWER TO MRCA.

so kindly reply to this question. wat can be the possible answer..

will it be EF2000, Rafale, more F16, or more FC20

simple

cause we hve seen pics of PAF evaluating Rafale and we also know that PAF has also evaluated EF2000.

air cheif him self said in 1 interview that MRCA will impact on the conventional deterence.

so kindly reply

regards


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## Storm Force

There are several very good answers to india,s soon to be confirmed acqusiition of MMRCA x 126 PLANES. 

i ASSUME WE WENT a proper answer not just 18 planes against 126 

So here goes. 

126+ J10B from China @ $40 m each = $5.5 billion 
126 Rafael @ $90m each = $10.5 billion
126 Typhoon @ $100m each = $13 billion
or finally 

126 F16/52/60 with AESA radar @ $50 each = $7 billion 

Realistically the Euro fighter & Rafael are just too expensive

Which means more F16s blockc/d or FC20 or the combonation of both. 

" If i have missed something plz say so


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## trident2010

I think Gripen would be better. Its a single engine plane so fits with PAF doctrine. So the list goes ..

1. F-16 whatever will be the current final count

2. JF-17

3. J10B

4. Gripen NG

5. Upgraded Mirage


Looks good to me !!


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## Dr sim

Right now Pakistan can not do anything to counter IAF. I think PAF's best bet is to increase the number of F-16 block 52 platforms coz they have a lot of experience with this aircraft. Pakistan's economy is in dire straits and they are making it to top ten on the wrong lists(failed states). I dont feel India is buying MRCA taking into account Pakistan either, its more regarding China. 
This might not be the appropriate thread but I just wonder where it went wrong for PAF. historically speaking their fighters were generations ahead of us in 65 war and even in 71 they had technologically comparable fighters to India. even though their numbers were less. Right now they are lagging behind in technology as well as numbers and the future does not look very bright with all the financial constraints..


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## aliyusuf

Dr sim said:


> ....... historically speaking their fighters were generations ahead of us in 65 war and even in 71 they had technologically comparable fighters to India. even though their numbers were less......



65 War
What generations ahead planes are you talking about? Just 11 F-104s(inducted in 1962)? The rest of the fleet were just Korean vintage F-86s compared to Indian Hunters, Gnats and yes (brand new) MiG-21s(inducted in 1963). The F-104s were by no means more advanced than the MiG-21s in 65. Quite the other way actually.


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## deepakclaw

INDIAISM said:


> twin engine j10b
> 
> as far as j 11 b is concern..........do u think china can sell them without russia's permission IMPOSSIBLE



pakistan will not operate any twin engine aircraft before 2019.


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## deepakclaw

farhan_9909 said:


> wats wrong with you?
> 
> current pak budget is 8Bn.so we can afford 10 Rafale per year bt now we spend almost our budget on WOT.this is the reason we are nt inducting any heavy fighter soon



insensible quote if pakistan spends all the money to buy raphel then who will pay u soilders and how u run ur tanks fly ur flights make weeapons .. u must understand that 8 billion includes all this


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## ejaz007

Storm Force said:


> The question remains.
> 
> What will PAFs answer be to 230 su30mki + 126 F18 super hornets. E/F >????????



An answer at this stage is irrelevant. First you decide which fighter you want to buy and then we shall answer. You won't be able to induct MRCA before 2015 so we have time.

Also incase you have not noticed we have already started making progress in countering your move in the form of J-10 and Block-52 F-16's.

As soon as these projects are completed alongwith JF-17 you shall hear further news so keep tuned


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## ejaz007

Originally Posted by Dr sim 
....... historically speaking their fighters were generations ahead of us in 65 war and even in 71 they had technologically comparable fighters to India. even though their numbers were less......

On the one hand our Indian friends say that our fighters were generatiosn ahead not generation and then they claim air victory in 65 and 71. 

Man we really had idiot pilots in 65 and 71 who could not shoot down generations inferior planes. 

I guess this explains how an F-86 or a F-6 flown by flown by an idiot pilot succeeded in shooting down generations inferior Mig-21.  in shooting down generations inferior Mig-21


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## bilal1219

ejaz007 said:


> Originally Posted by Dr sim
> ....... historically speaking their fighters were generations ahead of us in 65 war and even in 71 they had technologically comparable fighters to India. even though their numbers were less......
> 
> On the one hand our Indian friends say that our fighters were generatiosn ahead not generation and then they claim air victory in 65 and 71.
> 
> Man we really had idiot pilots in 65 and 71 who could not shoot down generations inferior planes.
> 
> I guess this explains how an F-86 or a F-6 flown by flown by an idiot pilot succeeded in shooting down generations inferior Mig-21.  in shooting down generations inferior Mig-21



Dude, we lost 65 and 71. i dont know why ppl keep on saying 65 we won, but the truth is 65 we lost dosent matter how much land we captured.point is that we couldnt get kashmir


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## somebozo

US is deperate to break Indian defense ties with Russia in order to contain resurgent Russia. It doesnt make USA any concerned about India future. Hell if they were soo sensitive they would be giving jets for free but no..it is India which is coffing up huge sums of money to actually buy them. Once the Americans have a strong ground in Indian defense market and have sucessfully soured Indo-Russian defense ties they will simply scale back for whatever reason leaving India in a leagacy of mess with no partner willing to deal.

This is American policy of containg two countries with single arrow. Selling American arms to Indian could also be a precursor for lifting US arms embargo on China. Last year, Obama was in China begging them to keep buying their bonds for the support of global recovery and Chinese are not soo fool to let this oppurtunity go. Many demand must have been made in a classical Chinese style of secrecy and "under table". America is troubled enough by Chinese industrial might and would not like to groom another partner for further outsourcing of American services and manufacturing..execpt as a temporary hedge. International politics are much more complicated than playing friends and enemy.

And lastly for the fanboys, Pakistan openly collaborates with US and buys US arms and technology this does not angers China so why should we be concerned about India. Playing spheres of influence is a Russian game and US offical does not recocnize such.


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## IndianArmy

*@somebozo:* Diplomacy does not work the way you think it to be dear....If a common person like You would think to such an extent, how would the people who have earned the name of Successful diplomats Think? You consider them fools, or Is it something else?


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## trident2010

somebozo said:


> US is deperate to break Indian defense ties with Russia in order to contain resurgent Russia. It doesnt make USA any concerned about India future. Hell if they were soo sensitive they would be giving jets for free but no..it is India which is coffing up huge sums of money to actually buy them. Once the Americans have a strong ground in Indian defense market and have sucessfully soured Indo-Russian defense ties they will simply scale back for whatever reason leaving India in a leagacy of mess with no partner willing to deal.
> 
> This is American policy of containg two countries with single arrow. Selling American arms to Indian could also be a precursor for lifting US arms embargo on China. Last year, Obama was in China begging them to keep buying their bonds for the support of global recovery and Chinese are not soo fool to let this oppurtunity go. Many demand must have been made in a classical Chinese style of secrecy and "under table". America is troubled enough by Chinese industrial might and would not like to groom another partner for further outsourcing of American services and manufacturing..execpt as a temporary hedge. International politics are much more complicated than playing friends and enemy.
> 
> And lastly for the fanboys, Pakistan openly collaborates with US and buys US arms and technology this does not angers China so why should we be concerned about India. Playing spheres of influence is a Russian game and US offical does not recocnize such.




Wow !! 

It was a nice dream if I was pakistani or a nightmare as an Indian .. 

its 8.00 am now and time to get up and face the real world. What would you like for breakfast ??


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## Bull

I think the PAF's answer to the MRCA tender is the ongoing JF-17 procurement.


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## IndianArmy

Bull said:


> I think the PAF's answer to the MRCA tender is the ongoing JF-17 procurement.



how????


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## Super Falcon

yes than what is the answer for LCA tejas from pakistan and what is the answer of new 42 SU 30 MKI which few days ago india ordered 18 F 16 wont be enough to counter 42 SU 30 pakistan should get the number of F 16 to 100


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## TaimiKhan

Bull said:


> I think the PAF's answer to the MRCA tender is the ongoing JF-17 procurement.



FC-20 would be the answer to MRCA as well as MKIs also.

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## IndianArmy

TaimiKhan said:


> FC-20 would be the answer to MRCA as well as MKIs also.



Has Pakistan signed contract or Ordered for FC-20?????


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## TaimiKhan

IndianArmy said:


> Has Pakistan signed contract or Ordered for FC-20?????



Formal contract just like how for the 42 JF-17s was signed has not been done. 

But confirmation regarding the acquisition has been given, as well as PAF is involved in the project to tone it as per its own requirements.

Since PAF personnel have been involved, it means PAF is interested in acquiring it.


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## IndianArmy

TaimiKhan said:


> Formal contract just like how for the 42 JF-17s was signed has not been done.
> 
> But confirmation regarding the acquisition has been given, as well as PAF is involved in the project to tone it as per its own requirements.
> 
> Since PAF personnel have been involved, it means PAF is interested in acquiring it.




Well, I have a Question for You.... How different can it be from F-16?? Which you are having.... Could you share some Info?


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## Super Falcon

If pakistan can get the number of F 16 to 100 and J 10 coming i dont think so MRCA will have any effect of balance getting to india of air space because J 10 is as good as any of its europeans russian and american counterparts J 10 is good answer for MRCA i agree with Tamil Khan


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## TaimiKhan

IndianArmy said:


> Well, I have a Question for You.... How different can it be from F-16?? Which you are having.... Could you share some Info?



Well problem is we are gonna compare something which will be coming out after nearly 4-5 years, and we have not much idea about what kind of avionics suite it will be having. 

Major difference which i see would be an AESA radar, IRST, Aerial refueling capability which we for now lack with F-16s due to non compatible tanker platform. It *may be* more agile compared to F-16s in flying characteristics. 

But as of now, we can't say how much it will be equal to or above the current F-16 Blk 52+, reason being we have not much idea about the Chinese avionics industry and what it will be after 4-5 years.


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## zou_hope

I come here. I just want to tell you that we love you!

Please read it and tell other brothers.

I don't make 15 posts or more. you can understand how to change the following link.

club.china.com\data\thread\12171906\2715\48\84\3_1.htm


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## IndianArmy

TaimiKhan said:


> Well problem is we are gonna compare something which will be coming out after nearly 4-5 years, and we have not much idea about what kind of avionics suite it will be having.
> 
> Major difference which i see would be an AESA radar, IRST, Aerial refueling capability which we for now lack with F-16s due to non compatible tanker platform. It *may be* more agile compared to F-16s in flying characteristics.
> 
> But as of now, we can't say how much it will be equal to or above the current F-16 Blk 52+, reason being we have not much idea about the Chinese avionics industry and what it will be after 4-5 years.



I would say It as a Good Move, you Know why, Because FC-20 Will be a Platform well Built for You to advance into the Core of its technology, But the same cannot be said about the F-16's from USA...

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## zou_hope

please add letter "l" in link end


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## zou_hope

please remove blank in 3_1 .htm

it's ok


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## Hasnain2009

Post the URL again.


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## araz

IndianArmy said:


> I would say It as a Good Move, you Know why, Because FC-20 Will be a Platform well Built for You to advance into the Core of its technology, But the same cannot be said about the F-16's from USA...



Sir
It is always a good move to have some control over your destiny. This unfortunately has never been the case with US supplied weapons, as they have always come with strings and no transfer of tech. We now have a chance to mould this plane according to what we need it to be.We have the experience of most of the international market and the way things are shaping up and this is somewhat a problem for our friends due to sanctions. Our relationship therefore is symbiotic and unique. We also have a lot of laxity in incorporating western avionics and weapons suit where it was required. Now our friends are progressing leaps and boud, we may not need to do this either.
Araz

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## SBD-3

Hasnain2009 said:


> Post the URL again.



????????????_????_?????--??????--????????


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## TaimiKhan

IndianArmy said:


> I would say It as a Good Move, you Know why, Because FC-20 Will be a Platform well Built for You to advance into the Core of its technology, But the same cannot be said about the F-16's from USA...



Exactly, with both JF-17 as well as with FC-20s, we are gonna have platforms which will be independent of dependence and fears of sanctions with respect to the US, as well as PAF can ask for anything which is tailored made for its requirements and keep them upgrading as and when required. And would be cheaper also to buy.

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## IndianArmy

TaimiKhan said:


> Exactly, with both JF-17 as well as with FC-20s, we are gonna have platforms which will be independent of dependence and fears of sanctions with respect to the US, as well as PAF can ask for anything which is tailored made for its requirements and keep them upgrading as and when required. And would be cheaper also to buy.



Yes, and Most Importantly You can achieve Self reliance After Manufacturing and Up[grading some Aircrafts With The Helpf Of China, When partnering with the USA , You have a scope for buying but not Progressing....

But with China, Pakistan can Learn technologies and implement it In Future Indigenous Aircrafts...

Indeed a Wise Decision I Must say..... Now I dont think PAF will opt for More F-16's, Instead can opt for FC-20 Molded According to your choice


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## Freedom

no possible answer of MRCA....it's require at least $10 billion....and pak already investing lot of money on JF-17....so forget abt pak MRCA....

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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> Exactly, with both JF-17 as well as with FC-20s, we are gonna have platforms which will be independent of dependence and fears of sanctions with respect to the US, as well as PAF can ask for anything which is tailored made for its requirements and keep them upgrading as and when required. And would be cheaper also to buy.



I honestly think that PAF has done the right thing by going for more of the Falcons and upgrading the ones that it already has...It would not only save cost of installing additional infrastructure (as many posters were hinting the famous "two squadrons" of Rafale, Typhoon and blaw blaw blaw) not mentioning the matintainence headache. By committing to more Falcons PAF would effectively save the additional resources (both technical and Human) which would have to be acquired for a new platform and thus would be able to focus fully on meeting JFT timeline....and regarding FC-20, IMHO PAF would acquire it with ToT, regarding the argument that PAC doesn't have the capacity...I think PAC should concentrate on FC-20 production after completion of PAF orders and commit its resources to FC-20 and let CAC deal with export orders as PAF will get its fair share of profit while having to do nothing (50% of profit). PAC may continue a limited JFT operation if customers demand western avonics whose supplier would be reluctant to deal with China but I think Chinese customers will be preety happy with Chinese Avionic Pack as they would already have the experience with it. Coming back to FC-20, It would not be a heavy and unmanagable burden for the PAF as 
1- Share of components with JFT
2- Pakistani Avionics development
3- Possible Western Avionics (which will be done by PAC anyway)
the only challenges would be Airframe, AESA, and Engine.....Which would be a real task for PAC. (JFT project and engine overhaul and rebuilding experience will certainly come handy here)


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## TaimiKhan

Freedom said:


> no possible answer of MRCA....it's require at least $10 billion....and pak already investing lot of money on JF-17....so forget abt pak MRCA....



Did you even read the thread and posts before coming with this non sense or even have any idea how Pakistan purchases and invests ??? 

Who said we need 10B to match each and every plane India buys ?? 

Even the JF-17s program got investment in parts, while the JF-17s have been bought with seller's credit, similarly FC-20s would be bought with sellers credits, thus giving us sufficient fiscal space to pursue other projects. 

And FC-20 would be and is the contender to come face to face with any IAF MRCA winner in few years time. You agree or not, is not my problems, but PAF is gonna go for FC-20s which would be as good rivals to Indian MRCAs or even MKIs.

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## thinkingcap81

TaimiKhan said:


> Did you even read the thread and posts before coming with this non sense or even have any idea how Pakistan purchases and invests ???
> 
> Who said we need 10B to match each and every plane India buys ??
> 
> Even the JF-17s program got investment in parts, while the JF-17s have been bought with seller's credit, similarly FC-20s would be bought with sellers credits, thus giving us sufficient fiscal space to pursue other projects.
> 
> And FC-20 would be and is the contender to come face to face with any IAF MRCA winner in few years time. You agree or not, is not my problems, but PAF is gonna go for FC-20s which would be as good rivals to Indian MRCAs or even MKIs.



But seller's credit is not unlimited. As Pakistan's economy recovers the seller's credit will be less required. But this might be 3 - 4 years away.

As of now PAF seems to be concentrating on improving JF-17 block II 's specs and getting the very respectable F-16 blk52 in perhaps less than sufficient numbers for an offensive role.

I am not too aware or understand aircraft specs. Will FC-20 or F-16 blk52 be good enough to take the attack into Indian territory (since IAF aircrafts and logistics will be better then) especially since it is suggested that Rafael/EF in a 2 squadron strength may cause logistic/maintainence headaches?

Could someone tell me what is PAF's strategy for the next decade or so? I ask since MastanKhan had mentioned that PAF was never a defensive force. I also think that one does not or should not train all pilots for a defensive role. Fighter pilots must be having lots of adrenaline surges and must dearly want to take the attack to the enemy. So how can a force be currently concentrating purely on defence?

Could someone advise or point to links to answers for my queries?


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## SBD-3

for those who think PAF should opt for Typhoon



> July 13, 2010: The Eurofighter Typhoon only entered regular service in the last three years. Now, Britain is planning to phase out a third of those it has, in the next five years. Germany is also cancelling Typhoon orders. Last year, Britain decided to not take all of its third batch (or "tranche", as they like to call it in Europe) of 88 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. Britain had decided to take 40 of the fighters from the third batch, and resell another 24 to Saudi Arabia. In effect, Britain was pulling out of the Eurofighter program, and cancelling 16 of the aircraft it was to have received from the third batch. The British government believes that 184 Eurofighters will be sufficient, and that it cannot afford any more than that. Originally, Britain planned to buy 232 (Germany was to get 180, Italy 121, and Spain 87.) With export orders, it was expected that nearly 500 would be built, now it will be less than 400. Like the F-22, the Typhoon got too expensive for a need that disappeared.
> 
> The Eurofighter project began during the Cold War, to deal with advanced Russian combat aircraft that were never manufactured, because the Cold War ended in 1991 and the Soviet Union, and its armed forces, collapsed. But Cold War era combat aircraft development projects continued anyway. This was mainly for political reasons. Those projects created a lot of jobs, and were worth a lot of votes. But reality caught up with the politicians during the current world recession, created in part by a lot of spending on things people could not afford.
> 
> Development of the Eurofighter began in the 1980s, and the first flight took place in 1994. Each aircraft costs about $122 million. The Typhoon is a somewhat stealthy multi-role fighter. It is fast, maneuverable, and carries a lot of weapons. It also can be used for attack missions. This 23 ton aircraft will be the principal fighter in the air forces of Britain, Spain, Germany, and Italy. The Typhoon is closer in capability to the F-15, than the F-22, and is competing with the F-35 for many export sales. The Typhoon was purchased by Saudi Arabia, mainly to provide protection from Iran.


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## TaimiKhan

thinkingcap81 said:


> But seller's credit is not unlimited. As Pakistan's economy recovers the seller's credit will be less required. But this might be 3 - 4 years away.



Yes its not unlimited, but it gives us a lot of fiscal space to maneuver in and go for other critical projects. Buying from China has this good thing that we can have seller's credit in nearly every deal, and whenever possible Pakistan will go for that. 



> As of now PAF seems to be concentrating on improving JF-17 block II 's specs and getting the very respectable F-16 blk52 in perhaps less than sufficient numbers for an offensive role.



PAF is concentrating of the second batch of JF-17s, as well as FC-20s and the up gradation of the older blocks of F-16s. These three programs are the major projects right now for PAF.



> I am not too aware or understand aircraft specs. Will FC-20 or F-16 blk52 be good enough to take the attack into Indian territory (since IAF aircrafts and logistics will be better then) especially since it is suggested that Rafael/EF in a 2 squadron strength may cause logistic/maintainence headaches?



FC-20s / F-16s are primarily for facing the offensive platforms of the IAF, that would be the MKIs, Mig-29s & MRCAs for now. FC-20s/F-16s/ROSE upgrade Mirages as well as JF-17s all would be used for strike missions as and when required, as all major platforms are multi role, and as we have not so many aircraft, that is why we are investing more and more in PGMs of all sorts, so that if aircraft are not available, atleast we can use PGMs from stand off ranges, that would also be the strategy of the IAF also. 



> Could someone tell me what is PAF's strategy for the next decade or so? I ask since MastanKhan had mentioned that PAF was never a defensive force. I also think that one does not or should not train all pilots for a defensive role. Fighter pilots must be having lots of adrenaline surges and must dearly want to take the attack to the enemy. So how can a force be currently concentrating purely on defence?
> 
> Could someone advise or point to links to answers for my queries?



Well next decade i can't say, but till 2015, it is to get all its F-16s upgraded to Blk 52 standard as well as if possible, get some more of these platforms and make the numbers cross 100. Get 150 JF-17s online as well as next block to be finalized & 36-40 FC-20s in service. Similarly other platforms also to be fully inducted and operational, comprising of the AEW&Cs, Intel aircrafts, aerial tankers etc etc. 

PAF has a defensive / offensive doctrine. First priority is to not let the enemy have air superiority, while on the same time keep attacking the enemy to keep it on its toes and not concentrate fully on Pakistan, and bring damage to the enemy. Major targets for PAF are within 300-400 KM of the border, thus with major numbers of PGMs, it can keep attacking targets in India at stand off ranges and keep its aircraft safe. 

But once stealth is introduced in this region, then we will see what to do.

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## fatman17

at the moment the best answer to MMRCA is more examples of F-16C/D Blk 52 with updated radar and the AIM-120D BVR.


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## indushek

I think the best move for Pakistan would be to go further in developing JF-17 by bringing in the future buyers of JF-17 as partners. I am not knowledgable of technicalities so i am only speaking project per se. Already Jf-17 is a 4+ generation aircraft and from what i see it has a small body just like our LCA. Since it is not a Delta wing and size is small, with the future buyers joining in as partners may be u could develop it in to a 5th gen platform by developing Avionics and all that stuff (don't know if i am saying it correct). My reasoning for this is that if F-15 a 30 year old fighter could be developed in to F-15 SE and so many showing interest why can't a relatively new plane like JF-17 not do that. 
In this way Pakistan will also become self-reliant and not required to ask USA for anything.


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## Hasnain2009

indushek said:


> I think the best move for Pakistan would be to go further in developing JF-17 by bringing in the future buyers of JF-17 as partners. I am not knowledgable of technicalities so i am only speaking project per se. Already Jf-17 is a 4+ generation aircraft and from what i see it has a small body just like our LCA. Since it is not a Delta wing and size is small, with the future buyers joining in as partners may be u could develop it in to a 5th gen platform by developing Avionics and all that stuff (don't know if i am saying it correct). My reasoning for this is that if F-15 a 30 year old fighter could be developed in to F-15 SE and so many showing interest why can't a relatively new plane like JF-17 not do that.
> In this way Pakistan will also become self-reliant and not required to ask USA for anything.











-*--------------------------*-
lol....just kidding...nice suggestion btw


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## SBD-3

indushek said:


> I think the best move for Pakistan would be to go further in developing JF-17 by bringing in the future buyers of JF-17 as partners. I am not knowledgable of technicalities so i am only speaking project per se. Already Jf-17 is a 4+ generation aircraft and from what i see it has a small body just like our LCA. Since it is not a Delta wing and size is small, with the future buyers joining in as partners may be u could develop it in to a *5th gen platform by developing Avionics and all that stuff (don't know if i am saying it correct). *My reasoning for this is that if F-15 a 30 year old fighter could be developed in to F-15 SE and so many showing interest why can't a relatively new plane like JF-17 not do that.
> In this way Pakistan will also become self-reliant and not required to ask USA for anything.



Not every plane is convertable into Stealth....( I wonder people get amazed by JFX and F-15SE).....Every 5th Gen uptill now is a unique experience....so it may not be possible to convert JFT into stealth fighter...rather its RCS may be lowered by Redesign......


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## Super Falcon

J 10 is the best available answer to any of indiaqn MRCA aquasation it is as good as EF not equaly matched. but what ever lackness will be filled with pilot's intelligence but PAF need to them in numbers well im very satisfied with PAF work till now

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## Storm Force

Super falcon 

When you say Pilot inteligence can overcome the J10 weakness in front of say a F18S/H or Typhoon,,,, I ASSUME you mean he,ll be smart and he,ll avoid the conlict or run for cover. 

or did you mean something else

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## amit27

J10 is not even close to the Eurofighter lol only pakistanis will believe this.


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## amit27

China&rsquo;s PLA opens up to show off J10, its first indigenous fighter jet - Times Online

China&#8217;s first indigenous fighter, the J10 is not entirely home-made. It is believed to be loosely based on the early-generation US F16. Israel helped at the start with aspects of avionics and aerodynamics until it was warned off by Washington. Earlier models were equipped with Russian jet turbines, complicating future sales potential. 

One military expert said: &#8220;For this type of third-generation aircraft it&#8217;s a serious plane. It&#8217;s very good. But it is still equivalent only to an early F16.&#8221;


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## Quwa

amit27 said:


> J10 is not even close to the Eurofighter lol only pakistanis will believe this.


Be vague all you want, but J-10B (and later FC-20) will be 4.5 generation fighters in the same boat as Typhoon. Not saying it will be superior to Typhoon, but definitely not as far as "not even close".

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinas Aviation Sector: Building Toward World Class Capabilities

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## Guynextdoor

What I can't get is...if JF 17 is the maximum that you can field against IAF...your top combat jet (excluding the limited nos. of higher block F 16s) take on LCA with great difficulty, probably lose hands down with MMRCA, little chance against Su 30, no chance against Pak Fa/AMCA...why have an airforce then? To take on the Bisons?


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## Areesh

Guynextdoor said:


> What I can't get is...if JF 17 is the maximum that you can field against IAF...your top combat jet (excluding the limited nos. of higher block F 16s) take on LCA with great difficulty, probably lose hands down with MMRCA, little chance against Su 30, no chance against Pak Fa/AMCA...why have an airforce then? To take on the Bisons?



Nice you have every thing superb out of this world and Pakistan has all junk. We understand this now would you please leave this thread and if possible this forum also.


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## bilal1219

Areesh said:


> Nice you have every thing superb out of this world and Pakistan has all junk. We understand this now would you please leave this thread and if possible this forum also.



Now Thats what you call " Bari Izzat say Bazati Karna".. but yea, this guy is ranting without knowledge and without thinking from his brain, wait a sec, does he have one??


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## Guynextdoor

Areesh said:


> Nice you have every thing superb out of this world and Pakistan has all junk. We understand this now would you please leave this thread and if possible this forum also.


Instead of posting vague nonsense maybe u could spend time explaning:

a. Why all reports current in media portray JF 17 to be largely a 4th gen fighter (at max). Stuff like AESA & Composite airframe are speculative, haven't yet seen the firm plans. Haven't got clarity on the avionics after the french problem (doemistic production is no answer-production of what and how it compares to what you may have got)

b. The closest in your family of fighters in comparison to MMRCA contenders is F 16. However, the F 16 IN (MMRCA contender) is a different animal in comparison to even Block 50/60 (AESA Supercruise, TVC). While my contention is that JF 17 is probably in the range of F 16 early blocks, even if I go by the logic that you will (somehow) get it up to the caliber of the later F 16 jets, I still don't see how it will measure up to MRCA (therefore point B)

c. Su 30...ahem

d. Pak Fa...ahem ahem

Plus no word on strategic planning beyond JF 17. So one will naturally assume that JF 17 will remain priority for a looong time. Anything beyond that, even if you start now will take what a decade for you, even if you start working fast? 

Please note that this thread is dedicated to tackling a medium level threat. NoT the dominant CURRENT threat (Su 30) nor the expected dominant future threat (Pak Fa)


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## Areesh

Guynextdoor said:


> Instead of posting vague nonsense maybe u could spend time explaning:
> 
> a. Why all reports current in media portray JF 17 to be largely a 4th gen fighter (at max). Stuff like AESA & Composite airframe are speculative, haven't yet seen the firm plans. Haven't got clarity on the avionics after the french problem (doemistic production is no answer-production of what and how it compares to what you may have got)
> 
> b. The closest in your family of fighters in comparison to MMRCA contenders is F 16. However, the F 16 IN (MMRCA contender) is a different animal in comparison to even Block 50/60 (AESA Supercruise, TVC). While my contention is that JF 17 is probably in the range of F 16 early blocks, even if I go by the logic that you will (somehow) get it up to the caliber of the later F 16 jets, I still don't see how it will measure up to MRCA (therefore point B)
> 
> c. Su 30...ahem
> 
> d. Pak Fa...ahem ahem
> 
> Plus no word on strategic planning beyond JF 17. So one will naturally assume that JF 17 will remain priority for a looong time. Anything beyond that, even if you start now will take what a decade for you, even if you start working fast?
> 
> Please note that this thread is dedicated to tackling a medium level threat. NoT the dominant CURRENT threat (Su 30) nor the expected dominant future threat (Pak Fa)



I can answer to your objections but I consider it futile based on the fact that we have been doing this for long time. The questions you are asking have been answered many a times by different members but you keep on bringing them with some change of words. We aren't here to play *neelam ghar* with the fan boys and the youth from India. Things have been answered and issues have been resolved to a greater extent. But if you keep bringing same BS with slight change of words and than expect us to answer them. SORRY we aren't going to do that. If your intentions are good and if you really want to learn something check the sticky and running threads. They would resolve your 99% queries.

And I also request to other senior members not to answer such rants because we have had enough of them.


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## Guynextdoor

Areesh said:


> I can answer to your objections but I consider it futile based on the fact that we have been doing this for long time. The questions you are asking have been answered many a times by different members but you keep on bringing them with some change of words. We aren't here to play *neelam ghar* with the fan boys and the youth from India. Things have been answered and issues have been resolved to a greater extent. But if you keep bringing same BS with slight change of words and than expect us to answer them. SORRY we aren't going to do that. If your intentions are good and if you really want to learn something check the sticky and running threads. They would resolve your 99% queries.
> 
> And I also request to other senior members not to answer such rants because we have had enough of them.


Sorry dude. No query has been answered convincingly by anyone. In the meantime good luck with your AF. I can see it 'shaping' up.


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## Areesh

Guynextdoor said:


> Sorry dude. No query has been answered convincingly by anyone. In the meantime good luck with your AF. I can see it 'shaping' up.



Because of your ranting intentions you may have problem getting your queries solved. Keep those intentions aside and your queries would be answered. Your posts show you haven't read any posts of senior members or browse through previous threads. Anyways do think for a second or two when you post something. And yeah we already have good luck with our air force. 

It is enough to shake up someone with it's surgical strike dreams.


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## Guynextdoor

Areesh said:


> Because of your ranting intentions you may have problem getting your queries solved. Keep those intentions aside and your queries would be answered. Your posts show you haven't read any posts of senior members or browse through previous threads. Anyways do think for a second or two when you post something. And yeah we already have good luck with our air force.
> 
> It is enough to shake up someone with it's surgical strike dreams.


Oh I have alright, all the way down to the pictures of the avionics to the speculations on the engine to what not. I'm sure YOUR queries were all resolved to thhe fullesy extent possible.


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## Areesh

Guynextdoor said:


> Oh I have alright, all the way down to the pictures of the avionics to the speculations on the engine to what not. I'm sure YOUR queries were all resolved to thhe fullesy extent possible.



1 Their are no speculations about engine
2 Yes my queries are resolved


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## Quwa

Guynextdoor said:


> Instead of posting vague nonsense maybe u could spend time explaning:
> 
> a. Why all reports current in media portray JF 17 to be largely a 4th gen fighter (at max). Stuff like AESA & Composite airframe are speculative, haven't yet seen the firm plans. Haven't got clarity on the avionics after the french problem (doemistic production is no answer-production of what and how it compares to what you may have got)


For a start, systems such as HMD/S, 5th-gen WVRAAM, IRST, etc, have been confirmed for JF-17 by PAF officials themselves. As for AESA radar, key suppliers have already begun development of export-oriented systems - both in Europe and China. You can't expect the JF-17 to indefinitely use a PD radar when its key suppliers (specially China and Italy/France) will shift AESA. Once these systems enter production and are put up for sale, we should expect PAF to pursue an option that actually improves JF-17's performance. 


> Plus no word on strategic planning beyond JF 17. So one will naturally assume that JF 17 will remain priority for a looong time. Anything beyond that, even if you start now will take what a decade for you, even if you start working fast?


Do you work for PAF? I bet you didn't even imagine the PAF Block-52+ nor the J-10B improvements until they actually hit the news. Don't take up such assumptions, just know that there are now many credible reports stating that the Chinese are developing two 5th-generation fighters, in which one will be a medium-weight aircraft to make up for the PLAAF lo-portion in its hi/lo mix. I'd wager a guess and imagine that PAF will try to participate in that project.

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## Guynextdoor

Mark Sien said:


> For a start, systems such as HMD/S, 5th-gen WVRAAM, IRST, etc, have been confirmed for JF-17 by PAF officials themselves. As for AESA radar, key suppliers have already begun development of export-oriented systems - both in Europe and China. You can't expect the JF-17 to indefinitely use a PD radar when its key suppliers (specially China and Italy/France) will shift AESA. Once these systems enter production and are put up for sale, we should expect PAF to pursue an option that actually improves JF-17's performance.
> 
> Do you work for PAF? I bet you didn't even imagine the PAF Block-52+ nor the J-10B improvements until they actually hit the news. Don't take up such assumptions, just know that there are now many credible reports stating that the Chinese are developing two 5th-generation fighters, in which one will be a medium-weight aircraft to make up for the PLAAF lo-portion in its hi/lo mix. I'd wager a guess and imagine that PAF will try to participate in that project.


a. WHat's the technology roadmap? WHEN? Timeframe etc. 

b. SQR, RFPs? Issued? Funding secured? Evaluation started? Chinese building 5th gen proptypes is a credible prospect and I would believe as much for a force of the sort that they are building but until it flies, tested yaada yaada yaada, you can't work out a roadmap for when it'll be a part of YOUR force. Chinese aren't discussing anything about their 5th gen projects until it flies, they seem to be taking it seriously as a proof point of their capabilities so they'll probably start discussions only after it flies/significant time after it flies. U plan to just wait till then? What about the rest of your force? But, my point still remains...you want something in your force in 10 years time, you need to have concrete plans, evaluation & funding for it TODAY. What I can see is that when comaring your threat perception with regard our current force structure...large sections of Indian AF is already moving beyond your capability levels. JF 17 just won't be enuf. You need plans for the rest of it to become a credible threat which I don't see because you guys are so enamored of JF 17 that you aren't thinking of the rest of it.

P.S- F 16 & JF 17 might get upgrades, but my belief is that whatever upgrades you make will be automatically made up by the planned upgrades in our force.


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## anoopsaxena76

Guynextdoor said:


> a. WHat's the technology roadmap? WHEN? Timeframe etc.



The technology road map is not really a shareable document. These are confidential documents with the respective defence establishments. 

What you see is only what they let you see. A defence deal is visible. What you do not see is what their operation planning is. India, at this juncture is not Pakistan centric in it's defence preparedness. While Pakistan does not want to match India in terms of numbers. It would, just as any nation which is smaller in economy, want to match India in terms of technology to the extent it can (both the countries use exported technology and both have not been tested against each other in a real time and I hope it never does.). Additionally it would hope that should the conventional war tilt in India's favour, it would initiate a nuclear attack. That would be it's guarantee for MAD. 




Guynextdoor said:


> b. SQR, RFPs? Issued? Funding secured? Evaluation started? Chinese building 5th gen proptypes is a credible prospect and I would believe as much for a force of the sort that they are building but until it flies, tested yaada yaada yaada, you can't work out a roadmap for when it'll be a part of YOUR force. Chinese aren't discussing anything about their 5th gen projects until it flies, they seem to be taking it seriously as a proof point of their capabilities so they'll probably start discussions only after it flies/significant time after it flies. U plan to just wait till then? What about the rest of your force? But, my point still remains...you want something in your force in 10 years time, you need to have concrete plans, evaluation & funding for it TODAY. What I can see is that when comaring your threat perception with regard our current force structure...large sections of Indian AF is already moving beyond your capability levels. JF 17 just won't be enuf. You need plans for the rest of it to become a credible threat which I don't see because you guys are so enamored of JF 17 that you aren't thinking of the rest of it.
> 
> P.S- F 16 & JF 17 might get upgrades, but my belief is that whatever upgrades you make will be automatically made up by the planned upgrades in our force.



Do we know which direction we are moving in? We, meaning India. We have some semblance of sanity but really, where is LCA going? It was funded when? a million years ago <sorry Federer, had to use your quote>.

Just as India has wisely invested in Su's and Migs for the navy (Seriously that naval part was a big big big goof up from India), Pakistan has also invested in F-16's. Pakistan, I would think is spending it's money cautiously and wisely. Do not forget Pakistan was betrayed by US wrt to the F16s and if they could, they would move away from the US in long term. I think that explains why they want to get the JF 17 development going full throttle. Whether or not it meets the technological requirements of today is a point a short sighted man would prefer. Long term planning seems to be just fine for them. 

Regards,
Anoop

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## indushek

hasnain0099 said:


> Not every plane is convertable into Stealth....( I wonder people get amazed by JFX and F-15SE).....Every 5th Gen uptill now is a unique experience....so it may not be possible to convert JFT into stealth fighter...rather its RCS may be lowered by Redesign......



See all i am saying is may be u couldn't do it like a F-35 or may be not even F 15 SE , but still u could make it evolve right?? Just like F-16 and F-15 u could make different blocks, not only could u make it more and more better but also u would save money and also by investing in ur own industry u buildup a strong base for urself. I mean it is easier said than done and also lot of strategic thinking goes in to this, however in the long run may be u will be the one who will reap the benefit. This is my belief ur free to contradict it, but for technology deficient countries like India and Pakistan this is the best bet for a solid future.


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## Guynextdoor

anoopsaxena76 said:


> The technology road map is not really a shareable document. These are confidential documents with the respective defence establishments.
> 
> What you see is only what they let you see. A defence deal is visible. What you do not see is what their operation planning is. India, at this juncture is not Pakistan centric in it's defence preparedness. While Pakistan does not want to match India in terms of numbers. It would, just as any nation which is smaller in economy, want to match India in terms of technology to the extent it can (both the countries use exported technology and both have not been tested against each other in a real time and I hope it never does.). Additionally it would hope that should the conventional war tilt in India's favour, it would initiate a nuclear attack. That would be it's guarantee for MAD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do we know which direction we are moving in? We, meaning India. We have some semblance of sanity but really, where is LCA going? It was funded when? a million years ago <sorry Federer, had to use your quote>.
> 
> Just as India has wisely invested in Su's and Migs for the navy (Seriously that naval part was a big big big goof up from India), Pakistan has also invested in F-16's. Pakistan, I would think is spending it's money cautiously and wisely. Do not forget Pakistan was betrayed by US wrt to the F16s and if they could, they would move away from the US in long term. I think that explains why they want to get the JF 17 development going full throttle. Whether or not it meets the technological requirements of today is a point a short sighted man would prefer. Long term planning seems to be just fine for them.
> 
> Regards,
> Anoop


a. Ok so the technology roadmap is not visible. But stuff like timeframe (by when do you want all those goodies in place), development partners (have you floated requests to?) ...MOVEMENT some indications of that. Rememeber we are talking about a flying platform and some fairly conventional tech. 

b.I'm not limiting myself to development programs even if they are looking at buying stuff as a solution that's an Ok strategy. The point is this. If JF 17 is their mainline fighter (excluding F 16 higher blocks which are now coming in in limted nos.), & if that can take on LCA with difficulty, not up to the mark with MMRCA & not exactly ahem ahem suited for taking on SU 30 today or Pak Fa in future, what are the additional steps that the PAF taking to bridge current and tech capability gaps?


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## TaimiKhan

Guynextdoor said:


> a. Ok so the technology roadmap is not visible. But stuff like timeframe (by when do you want all those goodies in place), development partners (have you floated requests to?) ...MOVEMENT some indications of that. Rememeber we are talking about a flying platform and some fairly conventional tech.
> 
> b.I'm not limiting myself to development programs even if they are looking at buying stuff as a solution that's an Ok strategy. The point is this. If JF 17 is their mainline fighter (excluding F 16 higher blocks which are now coming in in limted nos.), & if that can take on LCA with difficulty, not up to the mark with MMRCA & not exactly ahem ahem suited for taking on SU 30 today or Pak Fa in future, what are the additional steps that the PAF taking to bridge current and tech capability gaps?



How much about PAF future plans are known or how much do they discuss ?? Nothing till something is finalized. 

Take example of J-10s, even when J-10 was not officially announced to the world, the Chinese were showing the manufacturing plants to the President of Pakistan when he was visiting China and even offered to sale it. Here PAF jumped in, and gave its own specifications and requirements to tailor the FC-20s as per its own specifications, here they thought about future and invested in a future project. Same case with JF-17s, Chinese may have done the things, but it was PAF people who were the driving force behind it and made JF-17 something capable enough. 

So you will never know what PAF is doing in this regard about future inductions, planned upgrades and what not. Only when things start to come up, then we know what has been done and what may be done in future. 

JF-17s & FC-20s are both examples of that. 

How is it gonna counter IAF MRCAs or Pak-Fa, is still to be seen. Who knows what is happening in the background between PAF officials and Chinese with regard to future developments, as both are gonna face the same enemy in coming decades atleast and nearly same kind of aircraft, thus both will see to a common solution. 

J-10 was their prize fighter program and PAF was given access to it way back in 2005-06, who knows even now they may have given then access to their Stealth program after seeing the outcomes of JF-17s & FC-20s after PAF got involved.

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## Super Falcon

i fully agree with Taiml Kham that they might in closed doors gave acces to pakistan to stealth fighter jet to be sold to pakistan reason why they dont have make it officialy because USA and indians will cry alot if pakistan get something which can match their technology and power.


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## amit27

However, although the PLA hails the accomplishment of developing China&#8217;s first indigenous fighter, the J10 is not entirely home-made. It is believed to be loosely based on the early-generation US F16. Israel helped at the start with aspects of avionics and aerodynamics until it was warned off by Washington. Earlier models were equipped with Russian jet turbines, complicating future sales potential. 

One military expert said: &#8220;For this type of third-generation aircraft it&#8217;s a serious plane. It&#8217;s very good. But it is still equivalent only to an early F16.&#8221; 

Another attach&#233; said that the technology of its wheels, among other aspects, means that it could not be used on board any aircraft carrier that China may build, underscoring how far the PLA still lags behind Western militaries. 


China&rsquo;s PLA opens up to show off J10, its first indigenous fighter jet - Times Online


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## SBD-3

Guynextdoor said:


> Instead of posting vague nonsense maybe u could spend time explaning:
> 
> a. Why all reports current in media portray JF 17 to be largely a 4th gen fighter (at max). Stuff like AESA & Composite airframe are speculative, haven't yet seen the firm plans. Haven't got clarity on the avionics after the french problem (doemistic production is no answer-production of what and how it compares to what you may have got)


Because media will portray what is available....and honestly talking PAF keeps its most of the stuff very secret...unless PAF makes the news public.....so yes as per available data JFT is a 4th Gen AC but given its Tag of 10-15 million with 4th Gen configuration....you can imagine what goodies it can have in 25 Million Tag....I think you never got through previous posts before bombing your post in...and FYI PAF is actively working on adding more composits, A possible AESA (Italian and Chinese are in competition), and have stared to integrate indiginous avionics, A 5th Gen WVRAAM, an indiginous BVRAAM in thunder (Did you know it?),furthermore, a more advanced EW Suit for Thunder is under development at PAC and nearling completion....This is what is avialable or disclosed publically.....good job done isn't it?

b


> . The closest in your family of fighters in comparison to MMRCA contenders is F 16. However, the F 16 IN (MMRCA contender) is a different animal in comparison to even Block 50/60 (AESA Supercruise, TVC). While my contention is that JF 17 is probably in the range of F 16 early blocks, even if I go by the logic that you will (somehow) get it up to the caliber of the later F 16 jets, I still don't see how it will measure up to MRCA (therefore point B)


AESA is what I know.....can you enlighten me where did you get the supercruise and TVC?....The Engine used will be GE F110-132A which is more fuel efficent but produces 500Lbs (1KN) lesser thrust than GE F110-132 Used by Block 60 which can not supercusie as (AESA adds a lot to weight of AC).......secondly regarding TVC, the only version AFAIK with TVC is F100-232 generate 37,150lbs thrust with a 3D nozzle (not used in Falcon) and by the way these "early block f-16s" prevented IAF from surgical strikes...(Two SU-30s Being locked on at Khariyan...) 


> c. Su 30...ahem


you can get a cough syrup....or should I arrange one for you



> d. Pak Fa...ahem ahem


is still a long way to go......



> Plus no word on strategic planning beyond JF 17. So one will naturally assume that JF 17 will remain priority for a looong time. Anything beyond that, even if you start now will take what a decade for you, even if you start working fast?


Project Thunder will be completed by 2015...(You really dont have any information on Thunder ma man) and then PAF will be moving ahead...


> Please note that this thread is dedicated to tackling a medium level threat. NoT the dominant CURRENT threat (Su 30) nor the expected dominant future threat (Pak Fa)


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## hboGYT

amit27 said:


> However, although the PLA hails the accomplishment of developing Chinas first indigenous fighter, the J10 is not entirely home-made. It is believed to be loosely based on the early-generation US F16. Israel helped at the start with aspects of avionics and aerodynamics until it was warned off by Washington. Earlier models were equipped with Russian jet turbines, complicating future sales potential.
> 
> One military expert said: For this type of third-generation aircraft its a serious plane. Its very good. But it is still equivalent only to an early F16.
> 
> Another attaché said that the technology of its wheels, among other aspects, means that it could not be used on board any aircraft carrier that China may build, underscoring how far the PLA still lags behind Western militaries.
> 
> 
> China&rsquo;s PLA opens up to show off J10, its first indigenous fighter jet - Times Online



Where have you been? J-10 basic variant is at least around F-16 block 40 level, as ealier F-16s could not fire ARH AAM. A guestimation puts J-10A on the same level as block 52. J-10B is equivalent to block 60 and beyond.


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## amit27

hboGYT said:


> Where have you been? J-10 basic variant is at least around F-16 block 40 level, as ealier F-16s could not fire ARH AAM. A guestimation puts J-10A on the same level as block 52. J-10B is equivalent to block 60 and beyond.





the J10B = F16 block 60? mmm we dont know the features of the J10B yet such as the type of AESA radar so cant compare it to F16 block 60 one.


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## amit27

The F16 block 60 new features include: Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs); AN/APG-80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, GE F110-132A engine with 32,000 pounds (143 kN) of thrust with FADEC controls; electronic warfare suite and infra-red searching (IRST); updated all-color glass cockpit; and a helmet-mounted cueing system.


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## SBD-3

amit27 said:


> The F16 block 60 new features include: Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs); AN/APG-80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, GE F110-132A engine with 32,000 pounds (143 kN) of thrust with FADEC controls; electronic warfare suite and infra-red searching (IRST); updated all-color glass cockpit; and a helmet-mounted cueing system.



Thats Why I say....dont wiki everything.....AESA is also in Block 60 UAE....nothing over desert falcon.....GE-110-132A....making viper to operate with more safety and efficiency but not improving its TWR......EWS.......again its also present in Block 60......all colour glass cockpit....well honestly I dont know much about advantage of SV in this.....IRST....definately a new thing....but I cant see the IRST on the picture published by LMCO....can some one help me.....JHMQS....even PAF Bl 52 have them.....


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## Super Falcon

well F 16 Fighting Falcon is ever greeen multirole fighter jet father of all multirole fighter jet ever produced and one of the best even today.

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## anoopsaxena76

Guynextdoor said:


> a. Ok so the technology roadmap is not visible. But stuff like timeframe (by when do you want all those goodies in place), development partners (have you floated requests to?) ...MOVEMENT some indications of that. Rememeber we are talking about a flying platform and some fairly conventional tech.



Let me give you an example. Which century are we in? In the previous century, some 25 years back, India took Russia's help in a concept called "directional drilling". I wouldn't go into the details of this because I may be forced to remove this content and apologise.
No one got a wind of it. 

India caught everyone by surprise on May 11, 1998 with the Pokhran test. Remember we are talking about a nuclear detonation and we managed to do it. 

India caught everyone by surprise in 1974 with the first Pokhran test. 

Please note, I am not saying that they are doing something. I am saying do not believe that they are not doing something either. 



Guynextdoor said:


> b.I'm not limiting myself to development programs even if they are looking at buying stuff as a solution that's an Ok strategy. The point is this. If JF 17 is their mainline fighter (excluding F 16 higher blocks which are now coming in in limted nos.), & if that can take on LCA with difficulty, not up to the mark with MMRCA & not exactly ahem ahem suited for taking on SU 30 today or Pak Fa in future, what are the additional steps that the PAF taking to bridge current and tech capability gaps?



I do not know why are we so chest thumping about LCA. Our LCA right now, at this point in time, is not field worthy. Period. So even my kitchen knife is a more potent weapon and can inflict more damage than the LCA. 

MMRCA...What if we get F-16? How will their F-16 be any lesser than ours. Wouldn't they press for upgrades? US isn't exactly Russia that would deny China some key Sukhoi features because it had guaranteed that to India. 

F-18 would be comparable with F-16, I would think. 

Atleast Pakistan has F-16's on hand. We do not have MMRCA right now in our hands. 

And finally Su-30. That is where I make my point that if and when Pakistan feels it is losing conventional war edge, it will press the nuclear button. Then we can all make merry in Hell / Heaven with the Pakistani friends / foes singing "Ooooooooo Mehboobaa mehboobaa...". Jokes aside, that is why Pakistan has not signed on no first use policy.... And frankly no first use policy is BS... why make nuclear bombs if you are going to sign a no first use policy?


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## SBD-3

Guynextdoor said:


> c. Su 30...ahem
> 
> d. Pak Fa...ahem ahem


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## Guynextdoor

a. Searched for the F 16 IN Brochure but LM seems to have taken it off. So

F-16IN Given Super Powers

F-16 gets super cruise capability - Express India

What I can make out is that this is going to be the best F 16 ever, for SURE better than UAE's and Israels. My comparison with Pak's F 16 therefore stands

b. Why is this discussion going tangential? My question was a simple one, if in terms of overall capability MMRCA + Su 30 goes ahead of JF 17, from what I can see on GROUND, PAF's capability levels in terms of their frontline aircraft seems to be falling, so what are the plans/steps taken to counter? Taimi's argument is that lots of stuff happens behind scene and that even tech upgrades are never released before hand. Well, it is easy to give cover of national security over these things...but to the extent that Taimi indicates...dunno...it's a strange way of working but ok, i'll take that argument

Chest Thumping or not, LCA IS capable of taking on JF 17. Period. So I can work my comparisons upwards from there. N for people who think that JF 17 can match up to Euro, please keep in mind that apart from all the other goodies EF also comes with an awesome g Suit that lets pilots fly up to 9Gs sustained. So it's not just about the AESA & Multirole capabilities etc., EF also goes a long way towards letting the pilot get the most out of the jet (Can play big spoiler with your man behind the stick assumptions which I think is exaggerated anyways)


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## Guynextdoor

hasnain0099 said:


>


Kids ...


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## Guynextdoor

anoopsaxena76 said:


> Let me give you an example. Which century are we in? In the previous century, some 25 years back, India took Russia's help in a concept called "directional drilling". I wouldn't go into the details of this because I may be forced to remove this content and apologise.
> No one got a wind of it.
> 
> India caught everyone by surprise on May 11, 1998 with the Pokhran test. Remember we are talking about a nuclear detonation and we managed to do it.
> 
> India caught everyone by surprise in 1974 with the first Pokhran test.
> 
> Please note, I am not saying that they are doing something. I am saying do not believe that they are not doing something either.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not know why are we so chest thumping about LCA. Our LCA right now, at this point in time, is not field worthy. Period. *So even my kitchen knife is a more potent weapon and can inflict more damage than the LCA. *
> MMRCA...*What if we get F-16? How will their F-16 be any lesser than ours. *Wouldn't they press for upgrades? US isn't exactly Russia that would deny China some key Sukhoi features because it had guaranteed that to India.
> 
> *F-18 would be comparable with F-16, I would think*.
> 
> Atleast Pakistan has F-16's on hand. We do not have MMRCA right now in our hands.
> 
> And finally Su-30. That is where I make my point that if and when Pakistan feels it is losing conventional war edge, it will press the nuclear button. Then we can all make merry in Hell / Heaven with the Pakistani friends / foes singing "Ooooooooo Mehboobaa mehboobaa...". Jokes aside, that is why Pakistan has not signed on no first use policy.... And frankly no first use policy is BS... why make nuclear bombs if you are going to sign a no first use policy?



Ehhh dude...sorry but can't make up my mind on how to answer some of your points...you may have some reading up to do.


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## Dazzler

Why is it that you folks derail many threads? Is it on purpose or ambition or it just happens on this forum like instinctive maybe? Thread topic is PAF'S answer to MMRCA, not IAF'S ANSWER to F-16 blk 52 !!

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## Guynextdoor

nabil_05 said:


> Why is it that you folks derail many threads? Is it on purpose or ambition or it just happens on this forum like instinctive maybe? Thread topic is PAF'S answer to MMRCA, not IAF'S ANSWER to F-16 blk 52 !!


It's partly instinctive....


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## SomeGuy

amit27 said:


> the J10B = F16 block 60? mmm we dont know the features of the J10B yet such as the type of AESA radar so cant compare it to F16 block 60 one.





amit27 said:


> The F16 block 60 new features include: Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs); AN/APG-80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, GE F110-132A engine with 32,000 pounds (143 kN) of thrust with FADEC controls; electronic warfare suite and infra-red searching (IRST); updated all-color glass cockpit; and a helmet-mounted cueing system.



Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force



> The 01/1031 prototype of the new J-10B was unveiled in March 2009, 3 months after its maiden flight in December 2008. This much improved variant features a *DSI/bump engine inlet *which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style *IRST/LR* and a *wide-angle holographic HUD*. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and fire-control radar is thought to be an *X-band AESA* developed by the 607 Institute, the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large ECM pods are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and *ECM antennas*, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing *MAWS* sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. *RAM coating* is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with *CFTs* in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of *integrated electronic system*, ranging from radar to EW system. The aircraft thus serves likely as a testbed for various advanced avionics onboard the 4th generation J-20 (see below). Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG or EW. In addition, the aircarft is expected to be powered eventually by an indigenous WS-10A turbofan. *Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60*. The latest image indicated that the 03 prototype has flown, which has the pitot tube rumoved from the nose tip.


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## amit27

j10b no way compares to F16 block 60 for one thing the AESA radar is much more advanced everyone knows American avionics is the best.


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## SomeGuy

amit27 said:


> j10b no way compares to F16 block 60 for one thing the AESA radar is much more advanced everyone knows American avionics is the best.



J-10B would definitely give PAF a fighter with capabilities comparable to F-16E Block 60.

J-10B will have its own AESA radar, but even if it has a shorter range than AN/APG-80, well that's what AWACS are for.


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## zagahaga

Yup yup j10b in my impression is excellent but one thing I want to ask of..... In the official report it says PAF would test FC20 in 2010 are we testing them


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## anoopsaxena76

Guynextdoor said:


> a. Searched for the F 16 IN Brochure but LM seems to have taken it off. So
> 
> F-16IN Given Super Powers
> 
> F-16 gets super cruise capability - Express India
> 
> What I can make out is that this is going to be the best F 16 ever, for SURE better than UAE's and Israels. My comparison with Pak's F 16 therefore stands



Let's talk facts. Let's not make assumptions. Give me a proof that the "future" F-16 Indian version will be "better" than the F-16's that Pakistan will have at that point in time. 



Guynextdoor said:


> Chest Thumping or not, LCA IS capable of taking on JF 17. Period. So I can work my comparisons upwards from there.



And how do you say LCA is capable of taking on JF17? Please give me facts and not your assumptions. 

Regards,
Anoop.


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## anoopsaxena76

Guynextdoor said:


> Ehhh dude...sorry but can't make up my mind on how to answer some of your points...you may have some reading up to do.



Please enlighten me. I am all for reading. 

Regards,
Anoop.


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## SBD-3

amit27 said:


> j10b no way compares to F16 block 60 for one thing the AESA radar is much more advanced everyone knows American avionics is the best.



Dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalib ye khyal achha hai. ...


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## anoopsaxena76

nabil_05 said:


> Why is it that you folks derail many threads? Is it on purpose or ambition or it just happens on this forum like instinctive maybe? Thread topic is PAF'S answer to MMRCA, not IAF'S ANSWER to F-16 blk 52 !!



I do not think I derailed the thread. I am still very much discussing with respect to Pakistan's current capabilities. Please do explain how did I derail the thread.

Regards,
Anoop


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## Peregrine

Hi,
J-10b seems the best option but one can never predict anything with certainty, SAAB did mention recently that Pakistan could be the potential customer of Gripen NG so you never know 
P.S i know Gripen is contender for the indian MMRCA deal so......... yeah i don't need those reality checks


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## trident2010

Peregrine said:


> Hi,
> J-10b seems the best option but one can never predict anything with certainty, SAAB did mention recently that Pakistan could be the potential customer of Gripen NG so you never know
> P.S i know Gripen is contender for the indian MMRCA deal so......... yeah i don't need those reality checks



I personally think Gripen is the best aircraft for PAF. Single engine, state of the art. My only gripe however is, it got components from both US and EU and therefore instead of having one master i.e. US, you will have to deal with many masters.


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## Guynextdoor

trident2010 said:


> I personally think Gripen is the best aircraft for PAF. Single engine, state of the art. My only gripe however is, it got components from both US and EU and therefore instead of having one master i.e. US, you will have to deal with many masters.


The french are their best bet. no problems no issues...but right now our diplomatic leverage is higher....y don't pak buy....more Mirages


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## TaimiKhan

Guynextdoor said:


> The french are their best bet. no problems no issues...but right now our diplomatic leverage is higher....y don't pak buy....more Mirages



More Mirages from where ?? WE have enough Mirages which include good numbers in good conditions from Libya and Australia, which went through ROSE upgrades and are one hell of machines. 

Mirage 2000 does not now suits us, especially with F-16s coming and getting upgrades, JF-17s coming in while in few years time FC-20s would start coming in too. 

By 2-15, except for ROSE upgraded Mirages, all others would be grounded and by 2017-18, even the ROSE upgraded ones would be phased out. 

Gripen is even very difficult for PAF to purchase now, when its own fighter program and FC-20s are going to give dividends. 

Yeah if they want to replace F-16s at one stage, may be then they think about Gripen, but for now, F-16s are staying and Gripen has no chance in near future, as its another Western platform with high risk of sanctions with it.

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## araz

trident2010 said:


> I personally think Gripen is the best aircraft for PAF. Single engine, state of the art. My only gripe however is, it got components from both US and EU and therefore instead of having one master i.e. US, you will have to deal with many masters.



I would buy Gripen NG now only if i wanted to sink the thunder programme.We have a comparable plane with technology in the same range and whatever we dont have we can acquire in the next 3-5 yrs. Buying gripen now would give the world many wrong signals and would tentamount to political and strategic suicide. We are best off advancing our knowledge base and experience with the thunder and developing it, and then get FC20 in due course.
Araz

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## Dazzler

FC-20 will take on the MMRCA for sure and even after significant improvements we witnessed in j-10b, there is more that will be equipped on it to make it the desired FC-20 for PAF. It will be on par with blk 60 as this will fill the gap with IAF significantly, also AESA is already equipped on it as we speak and is being tested.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

nabil_05 said:


> FC-20 will take on the MMRCA for sure and even after significant improvements we witnessed in j-10b, there is more that will be equipped on it to make it the desired FC-20 for PAF. It will be on par with blk 60 as this will fill the gap with IAF significantly, also AESA is already equipped on it as we speak and is being tested.



So as said on various defense news web sites the number of FC-20 may rise to 150 and we saw Defence minister Mukhtars statment on the mass production cerem.. talkin abt talks with china reguarding TOT of a new fighter jet...

Do u think the number of FC-20s will rise to tht number or iis t just talk nothin else


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## SBD-3

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> So as said on various defense news web sites the number of FC-20 may rise to 150 and we saw Defence minister Mukhtars statment on the mass production cerem.. talkin abt talks with china reguarding TOT of a new fighter jet...
> 
> Do u think the number of FC-20s will rise to tht number or iis t just talk nothin else



indeed the numbers will rise as IAF will be procuring more MKIs and 126 MMRCAs....so there is every reason to believe that PAF will add more claws to its punch by procuring more FC-20s....Thunder will be more of a revitalization of backbone....FC-20 will be a frontliner along with Falcons.....


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## Luftwaffe

hasnain0099...I've the feeling FC-20 that is being worked upon and would be available for the delivery in 2013/2015, seems the number would rise to 4 squadrons instead of 36, the time being spent is not for 36, AESA is ready or almost ready, this is most likely the PAF MRCA winner a win-win situation, hopes are high it would delivers close to blk 60 performance over all, exceeding blk 52+....

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## SBD-3

luftwaffe said:


> hasnain0099...I've the feeling FC-20 that is being worked upon and would be available for the delivery in 2013/2015, seems the number would rise to 4 squadrons instead of 36, the time being spent is not for 36, AESA is ready or almost ready, this is most likely the PAF MRCA winner a win-win situation, hopes are high it would delivers close to blk 60 performance over all, exceeding blk 52+....



well we can judge this with no problem....PAF provides an indirect benifit to China that it can test the plane against the most advanced jets available in Friendly AFs.......RSAF, UAEAF, TuAF, RMAF so it can test its toy against a wide and diverse opponents....so PAF will not only enhance FC-20's performance but also provide China with valuable input in fighter development


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## somebozo

In millitary strategy tit for tat never works.. We have an example of USSR vs USA which has not achieved anything in arms race.
Clever strategy and counter balances help.

Lets first analyze what is MMRCA and its intended role during war.
A good counter balance could be

1.air defence batteries
2. Lightweight Jet-UAV armed with "fire & forget" anti-air missles
3. A new emerging concept is a destroyer missle cum jet-UAV flying at mach 2.0-2.5 speed. Its gives a very precise guided flying weapon and take on millitary jet. So its a UAV, No its a missle..hell no..its both. Also the ability to stealth it by having no external weapon payload.

4. launch and forget type of stealty UAV which can penetrate deep in enemy terriotry, drop bombs and return without risking human capital. Using mach 5-6 speeds as an advantage of counter measure evasion.


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## Storm Force

126 FC20 from china. NEW engin FROM eads the Euro fighter engine EJ200 with TVC which currently being offered to India for the Tejas mk2. 

Inaddition i would add the American APG79 AESA radar to the FC20 after all PAKISTAN is a key ally on WOT. American radars means the option for the FC20 to be quipped with more AMRAAMS C7s BVR missles and the AIM9X WVR. 

I WOULD LOOK TO license build jammers and ECM equipment currently on the F16/52 with turkish help who some people are key allys and the TURKS have far wider access to American technology than PAKISTAN

FC20 (Typhoon lookalike) euro fighter engine,, USA AESA radar from Super hornets apg79 and American BVRs and jammers. 

deadly mix


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## anoopsaxena76

somebozo said:


> In millitary strategy tit for tat never works.. We have an example of USSR vs USA which has not achieved anything in arms race.



Two corrections. 
1.) It may or may not worked. There are examples where it has worked.
2.) US and USSR is a wrong example. It has almost always worked. The crumbling of the USSR is for many other reasons, not necessarily the arms race with the US. 




somebozo said:


> 2. Lightweight Jet-UAV armed with "fire & forget" anti-air missles


Are there any operational or prototypes developed for this? I ask because I do not know. 



somebozo said:


> 3. A new emerging concept is a destroyer missle cum jet-UAV flying at mach 2.0-2.5 speed. Its gives a very precise guided flying weapon and take on millitary jet. So its a UAV, No its a missle..hell no..its both. Also the ability to stealth it by having no external weapon payload.


Same as previous, again because I honestly do not know about it.



somebozo said:


> 4. launch and forget type of stealty UAV which can penetrate deep in enemy terriotry, drop bombs and return without risking human capital. Using mach 5-6 speeds as an advantage of counter measure evasion.



This point is invalid only because it does not counter the MRCA. 

Regards,
Anoop


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## SomeGuy

anoopsaxena76 said:


> somebozo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Lightweight Jet-UAV armed with "fire & forget" anti-air missles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any operational or prototypes developed for this? I ask because I do not know.
Click to expand...


PAF and NESCOM are developing Burraq that will be armed with laser guided A2G missiles.

There are also possibilities from other countries like China or Turkey.



anoopsaxena76 said:


> somebozo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3. A new emerging concept is a destroyer missle cum jet-UAV flying at mach 2.0-2.5 speed. Its gives a very precise guided flying weapon and take on millitary jet. So its a UAV, No its a missle..hell no..its both. Also the ability to stealth it by having no external weapon payload.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same as previous, again because I honestly do not know about it.
Click to expand...


Israel's HARPY does exactly that (except it isn't supersonic).


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## anoopsaxena76

SomeGuy said:


> PAF and NESCOM are developing Burraq that will be armed with laser guided A2G missiles.
> 
> There are also possibilities from other countries like China or Turkey.
> 
> 
> 
> Israel's HARPY does exactly that (except it isn't supersonic).



Thank you. Though I hardly see them as counters if they are still in development. 

Regards,
Anoop.


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## Bull

sohailbutt said:


> I took out some time from my studies to write my thoughts as to wut will PAF's possible answer be to MRCA, i have analysed all the options one by one, availabe to PAF from my point of view, so here it goes
> 
> 1. IAF goes for F-18 SuperHornet
> 
> but the biggest drawback is that they would have to set up all new infrastructure to handle this aircraft, which will surely take lots of time, one of the biggest problem will also come in managing all the different Russian n American aircraft's at once.



The F-18 if chosen isnt going to enter service in one shot, its going to be progressive and in the mean time IAF would be decommissioning its Mig 21s and others; leaving IAF with only the MRCA, Su MKI and LCA .

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## somebozo

anoopsaxena76 said:


> Two corrections.
> 1.) It may or may not worked. There are examples where it has worked.
> 2.) US and USSR is a wrong example. It has almost always worked. The crumbling of the USSR is for many other reasons, not necessarily the arms race with the US.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any operational or prototypes developed for this? I ask because I do not know.
> 
> 
> Same as previous, again because I honestly do not know about it.
> 
> 
> 
> This point is invalid only because it does not counter the MRCA.
> 
> Regards,
> Anoop



Ever heard of vision, Innovation and invention?? As long the concecpt exisit, people will strive to realize it. We dont necessary have to depend on off the shelf shopping.


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## trident2010

It is difficult to answer how PAF counter MRCA. The only aircraft currently able to counter MRCA in one to one basis is F-16/52. I do not buy that any other plane in PAF inventory can counter it. Then comes J-10 which if everything goes on time then PAF gets 30-40 by 2015. 

So, in my opinion there is no immediate concern for PAF as per as MRCA is concern, however, problem lies that what PAF is planning for a decade. JF-17 gives decent replacement for MIGs and Mirages however they need decent numbers of F-16/52 and upgraded J-10's. 

Since by then India would be having 240+ MKI's, 126+ MRCA, 2x60+ MIG-29SMT and Mirage 2005-MK2.

I did not include MIG-29K's,Tejas, PAK-FA/FGFA or any other upgraded fighters.

Therefore in nutshell, for 5-6 years from now everything is under control for PAF. After that, it gonna be difficult. I am sure they must be having some sort of planning for this. 

PAF is always been an worthy opponent and I am sure it will be for many decades to come.


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## Reaper What You Sow

Having read some background into this monstrous defense deal and the obvious hurdles ahead for the PAF, I would say that any retaliatory answer would necessitate an acquisition of a platform (could be land or air) that can out maneuver or overwhelm the enemy. For this an extensive coverage high altitude air defense system is key, which Pakistan lacks already. This will be exploited even more by the next generation European or American jets on offer. This brings me to my next point. If the source of the equipment will be the US, further acquisitions of inferior Block 50 F-16 should immediately halt. If I am to play out these scenarios I need it to be as realistic as possible, and Pakistan air force being a chronically cash strapped organization, I would look for realistic options. Eurofighter and Rafale are too expensive and Rafale being too risky of a platform to invest in right off the bat having no customers. Looking to China at this point would be a logical answer but I don't think going to China answers the question, how to counter the Indian multi role tender. The Chinese are a good stepping stone and a great supplier of ground arms but I think that these aircraft are currently out of their league. They have nothing in the league of Super Hornets or Typhoons. Pakistan should really look into incorporating and maintaining a better air defense network. It doesn't make sense buying inferior yet expensive F-16 or J-10 when your enemy is fielding a higher number of better equipment. A great defense is the best offense.


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## Guynextdoor

Reaper What You Sow said:


> Having read some background into this monstrous defense deal and the obvious hurdles ahead for the PAF, I would say that any retaliatory answer would necessitate an acquisition of a platform (could be land or air) that can out maneuver or overwhelm the enemy. For this an extensive coverage high altitude air defense system is key, which Pakistan lacks already. This will be exploited even more by the next generation European or American jets on offer. This brings me to my next point. If the source of the equipment will be the US, further acquisitions of inferior Block 50 F-16 should immediately halt. If I am to play out these scenarios I need it to be as realistic as possible, and Pakistan air force being a chronically cash strapped organization, I would look for realistic options. Eurofighter and Rafale are too expensive and Rafale being too risky of a platform to invest in right off the bat having no customers. Looking to China at this point would be a logical answer but I don't think going to China answers the question, how to counter the Indian multi role tender. The Chinese are a good stepping stone and a great supplier of ground arms but I think that these aircraft are currently out of their league. They have nothing in the league of Super Hornets or Typhoons. Pakistan should really look into incorporating and maintaining a better air defense network. It doesn't make sense buying inferior yet expensive F-16 or J-10 when your enemy is fielding a higher number of better equipment. A great defense is the best offense.


It's been my belief that any effective counter to MRCA will neccesitate Pak looking beyond China. China may be beginning to make fighters but when you are against very well proven platforms coming from countries with well established tech base you will yourself need to go to those kinds of countries. Depending soleley upon china for so large a strategic threat is both risky and dangerous. But going beyond china also means scraping the barrel to get out the cash that is needed to invest in quiality.


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## Reaper What You Sow

Guynextdoor said:


> It's been my belief that any effective counter to MRCA will neccesitate Pak looking beyond China. China may be beginning to make fighters but when you are against very well proven platforms coming from countries with well established tech base you will yourself need to go to those kinds of countries. Depending soleley upon china for so large a strategic threat is both risky and dangerous. But going beyond china also means scraping the barrel to get out the cash that is needed to invest in quiality.



This is why the PAF will have to remain an extremely lean force, out of proportion with the ground forces no doubt.


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## anoopsaxena76

somebozo said:


> Ever heard of vision, Innovation and invention??


Thanks for your sarcasm. I had asked my questions with utmost sincerity. Have also thanked the guy who responded it in a polite, positive way. Check up. But to your sarcasm... 

Star wars program was a vision, innovation and invention gone wrong. 




somebozo said:


> As long the concecpt exisit, people will strive to realize it. We dont necessary have to depend on off the shelf shopping.



I agree with this. But your sarcasm just rubbed me the wrong way. 

Regards,
Anoop.


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## SomeGuy

Guynextdoor said:


> It's been my belief that any effective counter to MRCA will neccesitate Pak looking beyond China. China may be beginning to make fighters but when you are against very well proven platforms coming from countries with well established tech base you will yourself need to go to those kinds of countries.



Other than F-16, F-18 and MiG-35, the other MRCA contenders have not really been 'proven' - I mean what 'real' conflicts have Rafale, Typhoon or Gripen been in?

Pakistan already gets fighters from USA, but unlikely to get any from Russia.



Guynextdoor said:


> Depending soleley upon china for so large a strategic threat is both risky and dangerous.



That's why PAF is looking to buy more F-16s as well as upgrading older ones.

Besides, with China there isn't much risk of sanctions or political influence as there will inevitably be with US and European planes so, on the contrary, it's actually safer.



Guynextdoor said:


> But going beyond china also means scraping the barrel to get out the cash that is needed to invest in quiality.



Maybe, but a similar western plane might cost twice as much but might not be twice as effective.
With J-10B you will get quality as well as quantity.


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## Quwa

Until J-10B/FC-20 is in full swing, I'd say additional F-16s may come in the form of both new-built and used models. While there is scope for more Block-52+, PAF may also acquire used F-16C/Ds (Block-25/32) and put them through CCIP - bringing them to Block-52+ standards in most aspects.


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## Jungibaaz

it is possible said:


> It is interesting. But
> 
> Till u discover ur answers to our 4th 4.5th gen MRCA, we will get 5th gen PAKFA in 2017. With 5th gen PAKFA we are going to take back Kashmir in 2020, when we will be having at least 40 to 50 PAKFA.


  Plz don't make a fool of your self.

First get LCA, then get all of your su-30s, then get the MMRCA and then talk about PAK FA.

As for Kashmir! COME N GET IT! 

p.s by 2020 we will have a way of dealing with even PAK FA hint: J-XX


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## Storm Force

Standard Answer too everything 

" We have an ANSWER" TO Su3omki & too MMRCA & pak fa & TO india Nuke Subs 

Trouble is we never see the ANSWER

just that their is an ANSWER...

" love it"

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## Luftwaffe

*Standard Answer too everything

" We have an ANSWER" TO Su3omki & too MMRCA & pak fa & TO india Nuke Subs

Trouble is we never see the ANSWER

just that their is an ANSWER...

" love it" *

Terrible assessment on your part.

We've already told you J-10B/F-16 blk 52 are the answer to mki and mrca. Yes you do see the answer but you chose to ignore it. 

Take paka fried out of your list, the induction into iaf will be after 2022+ so relax such complex project takes time ok?

nuclear subs do we need them? No We've multiple delivery system based on Land/Air/Sea and continues efforts to upgrade update them.

I am sure now you have got your answer to your question.

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## Jungibaaz

Storm Force said:


> Standard Answer too everything
> 
> " We have an ANSWER" TO *Su3omki & too MMRCA* & pak fa & TO india Nuke Subs
> 
> Trouble is we never see the ANSWER
> 
> just that their is an ANSWER...
> 
> " love it"



f-16 blk 52 and j-10b
plz get some orders on those PAK FA and then we will counter it!

p.s mind adjusting your flags, we all know where you're from

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## Manticore

spanning on 50 pages , yet the consensus is on nothing. --- this thread will remain hypothetical and nonpractical till paf gets all the j10b/f16s.


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## unicorn148

F-16 blk52 and J10b are not possible answers to even SU30 or MMRCA
even the US has accepted that SU30 is superior to the F16 which they use and su30 is even better than J10b and MMRCA will be much more better than F16 BLK52 because in MMRCA even F16 blk 60 on offer


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## FreekiN

unicorn148 said:


> F-16 blk52 and J10b are not possible answers to even SU30 or MMRCA
> *even the US has accepted that SU30 is superior to the F16* which they use and su30 is even better than J10b and MMRCA will be much more better than F16 BLK52 because in MMRCA even F16 blk 60 on offer



No, they didn't.


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## Luftwaffe

your post is unicornish you get it what I'm saying?


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## unicorn148

FreekiN said:


> No, they didn't.



during the red flag the US accepted that SU 30 MKI was superior to the F16 but was inferior to the F22 the video became a great controversy


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## SMC

It was a single pilot and his experience. Not the official US stand.


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## JamesBond

SMC said:


> It was a single pilot and his experience. Not the official US stand.



And do you expect them to say this officially?


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## SMC

1. In many instances, states have said that another state has better weaponry.
2. Whether or not a state can expected to say it is irrelevant. Point still stands that they didn't say it. I can say that F-7 is better than F-16 because US officially cannot be expected to say that F-16 is better than F-7. You're saying that SU 30 is better than F-16 because US officially cannot be expected to say that Su 30 is better than F-16. I am sure you can see the fallacy here.


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## mshoaib61

unicorn148 said:


> F-16 blk52 and J10b are not possible answers to even SU30 or MMRCA
> even the US has accepted that SU30 is superior to the F16 which they use and su30 is even better than J10b and MMRCA will be much more better than F16 BLK52 because in MMRCA even F16 blk 60 on offer



you even dont know have any clue about j10b specifications and you have decided without knowing anything that su30 and mmrca is better?
Its not ur fault... i can understand your patriotic Indian side..


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## All-Green

Here we go again.

An air war will be about deployment of all assets in a cohesive strategy to balance out ones weaknesses with ones strengths.

If SU-30 is the only big bad wolf barring F-22 in the whole wide world, then surely Indian needs to roll out more of these since they are manufactured in-house.
Why give your money to USA and not spend it on your own industry?

It is a foolish notion that Pakistan has no answer to IAF, our answer is the PAF. PAF is fully capable to hold its own against IAF via force multipliers and modernization programs which it has been carrying out.

PAF is going towards improved operational efficiency and flexibility in order to be more cost effective and still pack a good punch.
Its aim is not to dominate the Indian Skies 24/7 but rather to deny air superiority to IAF.
However despite its numerical inferiority, PAF has always managed to carry out lightning strikes within Indian Airspace, nothing suggests that this shall not be done in future if war breaks out, especially the anti radiation missiles shall be put to good use...that much is certain.

There are many things which PAF has been working on.
Networking, Advanced air to air missiles, anti radiation missiles, AEW&C, mid air refueling, low maintenance aircraft, high availability of all assets during war etc.

Now SU-30 is a very capable aircraft but no real war scenario has been encountered.
It is not a stealth fighter, so technically it shall not only be seen by PAF but fired at with all the advanced missiles at its disposal which are good enough to bring it down.

The war shall not be one on one duels where snazzy cobra maneuvers shall defy death time and again...it shall be nasty and ugly with extremely lethal missiles making life miserable for the pilots.
AEW&C support shall make it even more difficult to overcome the enemy on both sides.
Lets hope it does not come to that.

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## Irfan Baloch

JamesBond said:


> And do you expect them to say this officially?



there is the official quote, the SU30 has a radar signature of Titanic
even Maju Pahalwan from Lahore will know when one will take the flight

all it will take is a well aimed shot from his catapult and the hot air will fizzle out of the IAF baloon
by the way do you know that ISI had the hand in the computer malfucntion in SU30 that caused a crash?

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## kashith

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is the official quote, the SU30 has a radar signature of Titanic
> even Maju Pahalwan from Lahore will know when one will take the flight
> 
> all it will take is a well aimed shot from his catapult and the hot air will fizzle out of the IAF baloon
> by the way do you know that ISI had the hand in the computer malfucntion in SU30 that caused a crash?



wow...this must be the most amazing flame ever..


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## Arsalan

JamesBond said:


> And do you expect them to say this officially?



exactly the same way...
do you expect us to give your our answer to IAF MRCA at this point of time,,

let the time come, PAF have always made us proud and the future wont be much different.
the lost decade is gone,, we are moving ahead.. 

regards!

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## Chanakyaa

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is the official quote, the SU30 has a radar signature of Titanic
> even Maju Pahalwan from Lahore will know when one will take the flight
> 
> all it will take is a well aimed shot from his catapult and the hot air will fizzle out of the IAF baloon
> by the way do you know that ISI had the hand in the computer malfucntion in SU30 that caused a crash?



I guess this Thread is about MMRCA.. rather MKI.. .surprising that a senior member is responding like this.. and i have to tell u....

That :

#1. Seeing is 'NOT ENOUGH' .. Both have AWACS but what now matters is the actual Kill ... With TVC , Longer BVR Missiles , Longer Endurance and Speed MKI is a True Air Superiority Fighther....

#2. Leave aside MKI , Talk of Mig 25 .. where was that catapult when our Mig roared across at Mach 2 while PAF F16s.. did nothing but 'stare' ??

#3. ISI hand .. I dont know.. but its obvious INDIA do have some Hand in JF17 Avionics Denial.

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## Irfan Baloch

kashith said:


> wow...this must be the most amazing flame ever..



well why stand back when the thread has been talked to death 
by the way. your avatar is of Saron from lord of the rings?


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## Irfan Baloch

XiNiX said:


> I guess this Thread is about MMRCA.. rather MKI.. .surprising that a senior member is responding like this.. and i have to tell u....
> 
> That :
> 
> #1. Seeing is 'NOT ENOUGH' .. Both have AWACS but what now matters is the actual Kill ... With TVC , Longer BVR Missiles , Longer Endurance and Speed MKI is a True Air Superiority Fighther....
> 
> #2. Leave aside MKI , Talk of Mig 25 .. where was that catapult when our Mig roared across at Mach 2 while PAF F16s.. did nothing but 'stare' ??
> 
> #3. ISI hand .. I dont know.. but its obvious INDIA do have some Hand in JF17 Avionics Denial.



liked your post

well someone mentioned SU30 so I gave my 2 cents 

re your #2 well that catapult was ready but in the last second the projectile was stolen by Dawood Ibrahim to use it for later

#3 is an answer for your #1 because all TVC and Mac2 and all that fancy talk will come down crashing when Muna Khan from Chandi chouk will hack into SU30 making it to do cobra Manoeuvres untill the pilots passes out throwing his gutts out.


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## Chanakyaa

Irfan Baloch said:


> liked your post
> 
> well someone mentioned SU30 so I gave my 2 cents
> 
> re your #2 well that catapult was ready but in the last second the projectile was stolen by Dawood Ibrahim to use it for later
> 
> #3 is an answer for your #1 because all TVC and Mac2 and all that fancy talk will come down crashing when Muna Khan from Chandi chouk will hack into SU30 making it to do cobra Manoeuvres untill the pilots passes out throwing his gutts out.



Kya Irfan Bhai... Comedy k mood me hoo.. ??? lol...


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## gubbi

All-Green said:


> An air war will be about deployment of all assets in a cohesive strategy to balance out ones weaknesses with ones strengths.
> 
> The war shall not be one on one duels where snazzy cobra maneuvers shall defy death time and again...it shall be nasty and ugly with extremely lethal missiles making life miserable for the pilots.
> AEW&C support shall make it even more difficult to overcome the enemy on both sides.


Exactly. The point that many fanbois fail to realize or take into consideration.



> If SU-30 is the only big bad wolf barring F-22 in the whole wide world, then surely Indian needs to roll out more of these since they are manufactured in-house.
> Why give your money to USA and not spend it on your own industry?


Its not that we are giving away money to US. IAF needs a dedicated multirole strike aircraft. Su-20MKI in IAF is a 1st line air-superiority fighter followed by MiG-29. The fact that Su-30MKI numbers have gone up form the original 40, IIRC, is a testament to the fact that IAF have found this aircraft worthy for the role they have assigned it.
MMRCA is for a strike fighter.


> It is a foolish notion that Pakistan has no answer to IAF, our answer is the PAF. PAF is fully capable to hold its own against IAF via force multipliers and modernization programs which it has been carrying out.
> 
> PAF is going towards improved operational efficiency and flexibility in order to be more cost effective and still pack a good punch.
> Its aim is not to dominate the Indian Skies 24/7 but rather to deny air superiority to IAF.


Of course. Thats what PAF is there for. But its a deadly cat and mouse game of technological oneupmanship. IAF with its deep coffers is surging ahead technologically and numerically to deny its adversaries (ideally any, practically whatever it can) advantage.


> However despite its numerical inferiority, PAF has always managed to carry out lightning strikes within Indian Airspace, *nothing suggests that this shall not be done in future if war breaks out, especially the anti radiation missiles shall be put to good use*...that much is certain.
> 
> There are many things which PAF has been working on.
> *Networking, Advanced air to air missiles, anti radiation missiles, AEW&C, mid air refueling, low maintenance aircraft, high availability of all assets during war etc.*
> 
> Now SU-30 is a very capable aircraft but no real war scenario has been encountered.
> It is not a stealth fighter, so technically it shall not only be seen by PAF but fired at with *all the advanced missiles at its disposal which are good enough to bring it down*.


You are just contradicting the first part of your post. You are talking going against the IAF, not some obscure central African AF with a couple of 2nd gen aircraft.


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## SMC

XiNiX said:


> #3. ISI hand .. I dont know.. but its obvious INDIA do have some Hand in JF17 Avionics Denial.



I guess many bhartis are still stuck in the past. The JF 17 deal is still on, according to ACM.


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## Irfan Baloch

XiNiX said:


> Kya Irfan Bhai... Comedy k mood me hoo.. ??? lol...



of course 
I know sod all about aviation. just make my presence felt and shore up my number of posts I am giving my thinking cap some rest


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## kashith

Irfan Baloch said:


> well why stand back when the thread has been talked to death
> by the way. your avatar is of Saron from lord of the rings?



wahi to...after all these pages..so much man hours wasted..
ya the avatar is SAURON from LOTR..big fan actually


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## SBD-3

The best track for PAF is to continue with its plan so that it may complete its current projects in time as these projects are more crucial than countering MMRCA deal. When it is free, then it can concentrate on the developments in region at that time. So First things first pls


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## All-Green

gubbi said:


> You are just contradicting the first part of your post. You are talking going against the IAF, not some obscure central African AF with a couple of 2nd gen aircraft.




Same holds true in case of IAF as well.
Lest you forget, PAF is not an obsolete or under trained air force.
F-16, JF-17 are modern fighters and not a 2nd generation ones.
Also the FC-20 will bring a much more high end strike package for Pakistan.

PAF is certainly not some green air force which lacks in air to air or air to ground missiles, radar coverage, modern fighters and most importantly a proven record of hitting hard and fast.

The things that shall matter most will be electronic warfare capability and modern missiles, that is the least visible part of PAF's road map.
What is visible is good enough to hold its own in a war.

Furthermore, the rapid advancement of Chinese technology in electronics and associated advanced software is something which PAF shall have access to in order to throw in a couple of surprises in the coming decade.
Having some awareness of the rapid pace at which Chinese have progressed in electronics and EM radiating systems...there is a lot of potential which has not yet come into play nor is visible to most of the onlookers.

At the end of the day, simulation and war is quite different.
War has many aspects to it, strategic vision, bravery, dogged execution and most importantly luck.
As long as an enemy fighter is not stealth and there is ample radar visibility and capable weapons at your disposal...you can bring it down.

The stealth fighter is a game changer, in my opinion.
So for PAF to counter all non stealth options of IAF, the plan is to just keep on modernizing as envisioned.
MRCA will not force PAF to make drastic changes since it already is advancing by leaps and bounds in its capabilities.

PAF has decently covered all angles in its modernization program for this decade and will have enough strength to dish out a lot of damage.
That is all what is asked of PAF, to ensure that it becomes a modern air force which covers all the aspects of air war with reasonable systems, systems which are quite good even if not the best.

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## Stealth_fighter

when MRCA gonn come really?


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## Storm Force

So the conclusion is 

PAFS answer to 272 su30mki is around 78-91 F16/52

And to mmrca x 126 PAF will acquire in 2015 36 fc20 

Overall with the mki & potential MMRCA F18/SH/RAFAEL being a better plane then both F16/52 & FC20 AND IAF having a 3-1 numerical advantage in these respective new high end fighters ,,,i see the AIR GAP WIDENING FROM 2-1 today to at least 4-1 in india,s favour.


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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> So the conclusion is
> 
> PAFS answer to 272 su30mki is around 78-91 F16/52
> 
> And to mmrca x 126 PAF will acquire in 2015 36 fc20
> 
> Overall with the mki & potential MMRCA F18/SH/RAFAEL being a better plane then both F16/52 & FC20 AND IAF having a 3-1 numerical advantage in these respective new high end fighters ,,,i see the AIR GAP WIDENING FROM 2-1 today to at least 4-1 in india,s favour.



No, I dont know how do you draw such conclusions. The point is that PAF will maintain a multirole fleet (Vipers and JFTs) which will be agumented by Air Superiority fleet consisting of FC-20/J-10B (which has enhanced A2A capability than baseline J-10A) so CAS,MTS,PS,SoS will be achieved by multirole fleet while interceptions,CAPs and escorts will be done by FC-20.


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## applesauce

Storm Force said:


> So the conclusion is
> 
> PAFS answer to 272 su30mki is around 78-91 F16/52
> 
> And to mmrca x 126 PAF will acquire in 2015 36 fc20
> 
> Overall with the mki & potential MMRCA F18/SH/RAFAEL being a better plane then both F16/52 & FC20 AND IAF having a 3-1 numerical advantage in these respective new high end fighters ,,,i see the AIR GAP WIDENING FROM 2-1 today to at least 4-1 in india,s favour.



being far larger(land + money) and able to buy from west and russia, india will have a larger AND (for its higer end)better fleet. however india will not be able to use all of its fleet on pakistan(pakistan not being surrounded by threats can focus on its western side), realistically they have to keep some back to demonstrate it still has aerial coverage against china and others(india being so large and all), if paf can hold out against say 2 to 3 disadvantage in numbers then it will have ensured india does not gain air superiority overall.


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## Areesh

Storm Force said:


> So the conclusion is
> 
> PAFS answer to 272 su30mki is around 78-91 F16/52
> 
> And to mmrca x 126 PAF will acquire in 2015 36 fc20
> 
> Overall with the mki & potential MMRCA F18/SH/RAFAEL being a better plane then both F16/52 & FC20 AND IAF having a 3-1 numerical advantage in these respective new high end fighters ,,,i see the AIR GAP WIDENING FROM 2-1 today to at least 4-1 in india,s favour.



You bought 272 Su30mki and mmrca 126 AC's. When did that happen? 

After 883 posts we were expecting something better from you...

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## Storm Force

Areesh in reply to you 

How Many F16/52s are there in PAF and how many FC20s are in service today??? 

There are 130 SU30MKI today in India as we speak 

The Thread was possible answer to MMRCA not current IAF V PAF fighter fleet compliments

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## Jungibaaz

Storm Force said:


> Areesh in reply to you
> 
> How Many F16/52s are there in PAF and how many FC20s are in service today???
> 
> There are 130 SU30MKI today in India as we speak
> 
> The Thread was possible answer to MMRCA not current IAF V PAF fighter fleet compliments



We are behind in current inventory but rest assure, by 2015 we'll be pretty well equipped


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## GreenStar

> Overall with the mki & potential MMRCA F18/SH/RAFAEL being a better plane then both F16/52 & FC20



How do you know that MKI and MMRCA will be better than FC20.....its a very immature statement, to make as you don't know the specs of FC20. Your making assumptions with no credible evidence.


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## AVIAN

hasnain0099 said:


> No, I dont know how do you draw such conclusions. The point is that PAF will maintain a multirole fleet (Vipers and JFTs) which will be agumented by Air Superiority fleet consisting of FC-20/J-10B (which has enhanced A2A capability than baseline J-10A) so CAS,MTS,PS,SoS will be achieved by multirole fleet while interceptions,CAPs and escorts will be done by FC-20.



And all this J-10s and its species will join PAF fleet tommorrow to challange IAF. Common on, let's leave this boring joke, PAF first need to pieace together proper budget to bring such jets to see light of the day. How many times are we gona see adjurnment of J-10 deliveries.


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## AVIAN

All-Green said:


> Same holds true in case of IAF as well.
> Lest you forget, PAF is not an obsolete or under trained air force.
> F-16, JF-17 are modern fighters and not a 2nd generation ones.
> Also the FC-20 will bring a much more high end strike package for Pakistan.
> 
> PAF is certainly not some green air force which lacks in air to air or air to ground missiles, radar coverage, modern fighters and most importantly a proven record of hitting hard and fast.
> 
> The things that shall matter most will be electronic warfare capability and modern missiles, that is the least visible part of PAF's road map.
> What is visible is good enough to hold its own in a war.
> 
> Furthermore, the rapid advancement of Chinese technology in electronics and associated advanced software is something which PAF shall have access to in order to throw in a couple of surprises in the coming decade.
> Having some awareness of the rapid pace at which Chinese have progressed in electronics and EM radiating systems...there is a lot of potential which has not yet come into play nor is visible to most of the onlookers.
> 
> At the end of the day, simulation and war is quite different.
> War has many aspects to it, strategic vision, bravery, dogged execution and most importantly luck.
> As long as an enemy fighter is not stealth and there is ample radar visibility and capable weapons at your disposal...you can bring it down.
> 
> The stealth fighter is a game changer, in my opinion.
> So for PAF to counter all non stealth options of IAF, the plan is to just keep on modernizing as envisioned.
> MRCA will not force PAF to make drastic changes since it already is advancing by leaps and bounds in its capabilities.
> 
> PAF has decently covered all angles in its modernization program for this decade and will have enough strength to dish out a lot of damage.
> That is all what is asked of PAF, to ensure that it becomes a modern air force which covers all the aspects of air war with reasonable systems, systems which are quite good even if not the best.



No offence, but all words and no substance that's all I can say. What kind of modernization programme does PAF has embarked upon that will make it invisible?. 

You are talking about taking on all Non-Stealth part of IAF, laught aside, how about prospectus of facing NATO bombing of Pakistan's border areas and killings of soldiers in Air strikes? first you need to put aside your lecture and bring us some sane discussion of how to tackle those mencing Predators.


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## GreenStar

> IAF having a 3-1 numerical advantage in these respective new high end fighters



Historically India has always had a nummerical advantage over Pakistan....so its not a new factor...which you seem to point out quite regularly in this forum. I admit India has a superb Airforce, yet India cannot focus all its air power onto Pakistan, as it has to safe guard its border from China. Furthermore Pakistan's doctrine from what I have read from my limited knowledge is that is is only concentrated in defending Pakistan, not penetrating into enermy terrority....in my opinion that is an advantage for Pakistan, as it can concentrate all its air defence power on a single entity.


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## GreenStar

> And all this J-10s and its species will join PAF fleet tommorrow to challange IAF. Common on, let's leave this boring joke, PAF first need to pieace together proper budget to bring such jets to see light of the day. How many times are we gona see adjurnment of J-10 deliveries.



Can't the same be said about India's MMRCA......Its been donkey years since India wanted such a plane, yet it has failed to do so already.

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## AVIAN

GreenStar said:


> Can't the same be said about India's MMRCA......Its been donkey years since India wanted such a plane, yet it has failed to do so already.



Fully agreed, but we never fumed high volume smokes about MRCA similar to a member whom I had quoted.


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## AVIAN

GreenStar said:


> Historically India has always had a nummerical advantage over Pakistan....so its not a new factor...which you seem to point out quite regularly in this forum. I admit India has a superb Airforce, yet India cannot focus all its air power onto Pakistan, as it has to safe guard its border from China. Furthermore Pakistan's doctrine from what I have read from my limited knowledge is that is is only concentrated in defending Pakistan, not penetrating into enermy terrority....in my opinion that is an advantage for Pakistan, as it can concentrate all its air defence power on a single entity.



Yes IAF has to safeguard all its border during Hostilities which it has been doing since ages and come out strongly when it comes to defending it skies and when it matters the most. 

I assure you, IAF will not disappoint you such a privilage even for nth time.


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## Areesh

Storm Force said:


> Areesh in reply to you
> 
> How Many F16/52s are there in PAF and how many FC20s are in service today???
> 
> There are 130 SU30MKI today in India as we speak
> 
> The Thread was possible answer to MMRCA not current IAF V PAF fighter fleet compliments



If you make just rethink about your previous post you would realize how lame your post was. Even in the worst conditions IAF might not take the risk of bringing all of it's su30mki to the western side. And you are here comparing the future whole fleet of su30 with anticipated fleet of F-16. And you are bringing in MRCA while you haven't signed a deal yet. Like come on yaar. You can't compare the strength by just quoting numbers and giving the final decision.

You would have to consider the airspace, doctrine, AWACS, Radars, Missiles in the arsenal to give a final decision about someone's strength. And if you have read the threads on this forum, you might a realize that even right now PAF has the strength to give a strong punch to it's adversary. With the present programs that PAF is undergoing for it's modernization, it would be a small but a lethal force to reckon with.


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## Storm Force

PAFs strong punch consists of 

45 1990 supplied F16 block15
6 F16/52
14 Thunders (is sd10 supplied yet)
175 F7PG (chinease mig21)
175 mirage 3/5 (1970s) 

**** There is nothing there that will scare 6 sqds of SU30MKI about 130 PLANES WITH pesa radar R27/R77 x 12 missles each data linking irst and TVC as standard. 

INFACT i doubt the 69 mig29 or 51 mirage2000 pilots will too bothered either 

(the single best weapon in the PAF air force are the 2 x AWACS ) PLANES they acquired... recently

When you compare PAF to your imediate neighbours its both poorly equipped and poorly funded... 

If you compare future plans they are a Fraction of Wat China India even Saudi have planned. AGAIN its the funding issue


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## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> And all this J-10s and its species will join PAF fleet tommorrow to challange IAF. Common on, let's leave this boring joke, PAF first need to pieace together proper budget to bring such jets to see light of the day. *How many times are we gona see adjurnment of J-10 deliveries.*



there has not been any adjustments in J-10 delivery.The initial batch remains at 36 and eventual requirement upto 150. I ll be glad if you provide me with the source of your information about the adjustments. And yes obviously the FC-20s will come tom, thats why PAF has gone ahead with F-16s as stop gap. at the moment F-16 are entrusted with both AS and Strike role. but when FC-20 will arrive, the roles will be allocated for operational optimization. hope to hear from you soon


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## deckingraj

GreenStar said:


> Historically India has always had a nummerical advantage over Pakistan....so its not a new factor...which you seem to point out quite regularly in this forum. I admit India has a superb Airforce, yet India cannot focus all its air power onto Pakistan, as it has to safe guard its border from China. Furthermore Pakistan's doctrine from what I have read from my limited knowledge is that is is only concentrated in defending Pakistan, not penetrating into enermy terrority....in my opinion that is an advantage for Pakistan, as it can concentrate all its air defence power on a single entity.



I am not sure how well-versed are you with India-Pak conflicts....However if you are the you would have seen how PAF planned pre-emptive strikes on IAF basis in 65 and 71...reason was plane and simple...Kill the numerical superiority by taking down as many fighters on ground as you can and bombard the air-strips to give PAF fighters enough space......So in short when you say that PAF main job is to defend then please keep in mind punitive action across the border is also a vital part of defense.....

Now if we compare the IAF and PAF inventory starting from their top-notch Aircrafts to the bottom one's then IAF has definite edge not in mere quantity but also quality....Now does that mean PAF is doomed, of-course not, however there job is getting tougher and tougher everyday..... Though in last 5-6 years they have tried to decrease this gap but understand lost decade of 90's complemented with GOI increasing might in geo-politics and ever increasing $$$ have raised the bars to a different level...Competing with it is an uphill task...So all i can say to PAF is best of luck....


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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> PAFs strong punch consists of
> 
> 45 1990 supplied F16 block15
> 6 F16/52
> 14 Thunders (is sd10 supplied yet)
> 175 F7PG (chinease mig21)
> 175 mirage 3/5 (1970s)
> 
> **** There is nothing there that will scare 6 sqds of SU30MKI about 130 PLANES WITH pesa radar R27/R77 x 12 missles each data linking irst and TVC as standard.
> 
> INFACT i doubt the 69 mig29 or 51 mirage2000 pilots will too bothered either
> 
> (the single best weapon in the PAF air force are the 2 x AWACS ) PLANES they acquired... recently
> 
> When you compare PAF to your imediate neighbours its both poorly equipped and poorly funded...
> 
> If you compare future plans they are a Fraction of Wat China India even Saudi have planned. AGAIN its the funding issue



Not again, IAF would not be as silly as you think. If she has 6 squads, all of them will not be against PAF. IAF face much more adversaries than PAF so its punch is limited towards one side. lets say if IAF launches all the six squadrons toward Pakistan Airspace. It will expose its tail to other adversaries. Which would not a wise decision.

P.S:if you would remember in post mumbai events, these " 1990 supplied F16 block15" and F-7PGs intercepted an MKI lurking in Pakistan Airspace.
BBCUrdu.com | ??????? | ?????? ??????????? ?????? ?????


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## Ababeel

Is the long range SAM or ABM system not a correct reply as Pakistan can not bear the cost of so many costly fighter aircrafts.


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## karan.1970

hasnain0099 said:


> Not again, IAF would not be as silly as you think. If she has 6 squads, all of them will not be against PAF. IAF face much more adversaries than PAF so its punch is limited towards one side. lets say if IAF launches all the six squadrons toward Pakistan Airspace. It will expose its tail to other adversaries. Which would not a wise decision.
> 
> P.S:if you would remember in post mumbai events, these " 1990 supplied F16 block15" and F-7PGs intercepted a couple of MKIs lurking in Pakistan Airspace.
> BBCUrdu.com | ??????? | ?????? ??????????? ?????? ?????



Er.. Are we assuming that these 6 sqd of Su 30s is all IAF has? Arent we forgetting 

1. 69 Mig 29s (on the way to SMT)
2. 51 Mirage 2000s
3. 121 Mig 21 *Bisons*
4. 80 odd olders Mig 21s being phased out in next 2-3 years
5. 139 Jaguars
6. 100 odd Mig 27s


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## deckingraj

hasnain0099 said:


> Not again, IAF would not be as silly as you think. If she has 6 squads, all of them will not be against PAF. IAF face much more adversaries than PAF so its punch is limited towards one side. lets say if IAF launches all the six squadrons toward Pakistan Airspace. It will expose its tail to other adversaries. Which would not a wise decision.
> 
> P.S:if you would remember in post mumbai events, these " 1990 supplied F16 block15" and F-7PGs intercepted an MKI lurking in Pakistan Airspace.
> BBCUrdu.com | ??????? | ?????? ??????????? ?????? ?????



Please remember that like your country we also have different commands to cover different parts of the country....Resources from Eastern command will not be allocated to western command as such however if need be they will be pulled....

It is not an easy decision to pick up fight with a nuclear armed nation that has the potential to deliver enough payload into every corner of your country.....I believe it is highly unlikely that India-Pak will go for a full-fledge war and similarly it is highly unlikely that China will join in case we two pass the level of stupidity...Anyhow remember its just recently that we have started arming our eastern wing...Most of our offensive assets are still pointing towards western neighbour....So in case you are comparing the kind of firepower then rest assure majority of these 6 squadrons will fire in anger in our western part....


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## SBD-3

karan.1970 said:


> Er.. Are we assuming that these 6 sqd of Su 30s is all IAF has? Arent we forgetting
> 
> 1. 69 Mig 29s (on the way to SMT)
> 2. 51 Mirage 2000s
> 3. 121 Mig 21 *Bisons*
> 4. 80 odd olders Mig 21s being phased out in next 2-3 years
> 5. 139 Jaguars
> 6. 100 odd Mig 27s



I am certainly not forgetting this. Just replying to his post about 6 squads.


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## SBD-3

deckingraj said:


> Please remember that like your country we also have different commands to cover different parts of the country....Resources from Eastern command will not be allocated to western command as such however if need be they will be pulled....
> 
> It is not an easy decision to pick up fight with a nuclear armed nation that has the potential to deliver enough payload into every corner of your country.....I believe it is highly unlikely that India-Pak will go for a full-fledge war and similarly it is highly unlikely that China will join in case we two pass the level of stupidity...Anyhow remember its just recently that we have started arming our eastern wing...Most of our offensive assets are still pointing towards western neighbour....So in case you are comparing the kind of firepower then rest assure majority of these 6 squadrons will fire in anger in our western part....



Firing wont do the job, they will have to enter the Pakistan Airspace which is it self a risk. PAF will certainly not go for deep strikes but rather paralyzing the close boarder FoBs of IAF which will ensure IAF to bet their premier assets in Pakistan Airspace where PAF can play by its rules.


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## Jungibaaz

Storm Force said:


> PAFs strong punch consists of
> 
> *45 1990 supplied F16 block15*
> 6 F16/52
> 14 Thunders (is sd10 supplied yet)
> 175 F7PG (chinease mig21)
> 175 mirage 3/5 (1970s)
> 
> **** There is nothing there that will scare 6 sqds of SU30MKI about 130 PLANES WITH pesa radar R27/R77 x 12 missles each data linking irst and TVC as standard.
> 
> INFACT i doubt the 69 mig29 or 51 mirage2000 pilots will too bothered either
> 
> (the single best weapon in the PAF air force are the 2 x AWACS ) PLANES they acquired... recently
> 
> When you compare PAF to your imediate neighbours its both poorly equipped and poorly funded...
> 
> If you compare future plans they are a Fraction of Wat China India even Saudi have planned. AGAIN its the funding issue



How many time shave I told you this???


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## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> How many time shave I told you this???



the best part was that he considers AWACS a weapon....

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## Jungibaaz

hasnain0099 said:


> the best part was that he considers AWACS a weapon....



I told him UPGRADED TO BLK 52 standard 3 times in the last couple of days...seems he doesn't want to listen.


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## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> I told him UPGRADED TO BLK 52 standard 3 times in the last couple of days...seems he doesn't want to listen.


because its against his interest

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## Jungibaaz

Storm Force said:


> PAFs strong punch consists of
> 
> 45 1990 supplied F16 block15
> 6 F16/52
> 14 Thunders (is sd10 supplied yet)
> 175 F7PG (chinease mig21)
> 175 mirage 3/5 (1970s)
> 
> **** There is nothing there that will scare 6 sqds of SU30MKI about 130 PLANES WITH pesa radar R27/R77 x 12 missles each data linking irst and TVC as standard.
> 
> INFACT i doubt the 69 mig29 or 51 mirage2000 pilots will too bothered either
> 
> (the single best weapon in the PAF air force are the 2 x AWACS ) PLANES they acquired... recently
> 
> When you compare PAF to your imediate neighbours its both poorly equipped and poorly funded...
> 
> If you compare future plans they are a Fraction of Wat China India even Saudi have planned. AGAIN its the funding issue



Plz before I begin this useless rant... get a pen and notepad..write this down lest you forget it again

Yes our inventory is not much right now, Yes we were weak.. but we are changing rapidly...

by 2015 you'll see

36 J-10B/FC-20
45 F-16 upgraded to blk 52 standard (minus CFTs)
35 new built F-16 blk 52s
+ 50 JF-17 thunder block I
+ _X_ number of JF-17 block IIs

^^ALL OF THESE PLANES ARMED WITH BVRs
Plz understand we will be closing the gap soon enough 

edit: 

those Chinese mig-21s are comparable to your Bisons 
and those 70s Mirages are superior to your Bisons
Yes the su-30mki has PESA but the f-16 has good MSA on board which should have no problem finding the flankers.
Also just so you know, our f-16s have JHMCS which IMHO outclasses TVC.

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## deckingraj

hasnain0099 said:


> Firing wont do the job, they will have to enter the Pakistan Airspace which is it self a risk. PAF will certainly not go for deep strikes but rather paralyzing the close boarder FoBs of IAF which will ensure IAF to bet their premier assets in Pakistan Airspace where PAF can play by its rules.



Couple of flaws above...let me highlight them

- When i say they will fire in anger i mean majority will see the light of conflict
- No doubt these MKI's and other fighters will have to enter Pak Air-Space and there is going to be risk, but then that is always going to be true...SAMS are and will always be a threat until we enter the era of Stealth Aircrafts which is a good decade away....Hopefully by then new powerful radars will come into picture but all this is subjective as of now...
- When an enemy attacks he forces you to change your strategy because he attacks at the time of his choosing and place of his choice..no??? In short he sets the rules of engagement. Anyways PAF will definitely enjoy the home advantage and there should be no doubt about it....
- Please read my post 270...I know PAF follow defensive doctorine but you got to attack on the other side of the border......In other words your fighters will have to enter our Air-space as well where they not only have to face the music of SAM'S but better fighter planes(atleast on paper).....
- Remember we have numerical superiority and enough has been discussed on the endurance of MKI's....There is high probablity Offensive sorties in Pak would be too many for Pak to have answer for...

Mind it i am not a fanboy who just type to win internet war.....I have utmost respect for PAF and have heard many stories about how competent this organization is however in today's high tech warfare one has to have best of the best to increase the chances of coming up with a surprise....I can clearly see that a lot has been done by Paf in last 5-6 years to plunge the gap viz-a-viz IAF and they have succeeded to some extent but it is still an uphill task....I am not sure but think that WOT and floods is going to take its toll.....

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## Trichy

Jungibaaz said:


> Plz before I begin this useless rant... get a pen and notepad..write this down lest you forget it again
> 
> *Yes our inventory is not much right now, Yes we were weak.. but we are changing rapidly...*
> 
> by 2015 you'll see
> 
> 36 J-10B/FC-20
> 45 F-16 upgraded to blk 52 standard (minus CFTs)
> 35 new built F-16 blk 52s
> + 50 JF-17 thunder block I
> + _X_ number of JF-17 block IIs
> 
> ^^ALL OF THESE PLANES ARMED WITH BVRs
> Plz understand we will be closing the gap soon enough
> 
> edit:
> 
> those Chinese mig-21s are comparable to your Bisons
> and those 70s Mirages are superior to your Bisons
> Yes the su-30mki has PESA but the f-16 has good MSA on board which should have *no problem finding the flankers*.
> Also just so you know, our f-16s have JHMCS which IMHO outclasses TVC.



If in 2015 IAF have,

* 250+ Su-30 MKI(42 will carry Bhromos)(XX+ will get AESA in MLU starts 2012)
* 40+ MRCA with AESA
* 69 MiG-29 SMT
* 50+ Mirage 2000-5 with MLU finished
* 40 LCA Blk 1
* 35+ LCA Blk 2 with AESA

This will too much for ur airforce..

* Finding is no problem but to fire a weapon @ the KILL RANGE of the missile is problem...
* PAF Mirage & F-7 have a BVR platform??? But IAF MiG-21 Bison have BVR. It carries 2.
* JHMCS can out class TCV, for that you must pull the Su-30 MKI for WVR Fight. (With 6 to 10 BVR)

*Yes our inventory is not much right now, Yes we were weak.. but we are changing rapidly...*

*As per IAF Chief currently IAF hav 50 % obstacle, in 2015 it reduced to 20 %. So your head ace is still there...*


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## TaimiKhan

Trichy said:


> If in 2015 IAF have,
> 
> * 250+ Su-30 MKI(42 will carry Bhromos)(XX+ will get AESA in MLU starts 2012)
> * 40+ MRCA with AESA
> * 69 MiG-29 SMT
> * 50+ Mirage 2000-5 with MLU finished
> * 40 LCA Blk 1
> * 35+ LCA Blk 2 with AESA
> 
> This will too much for ur airforce..
> 
> * Finding is no problem but to fire a weapon @ the KILL RANGE of the missile is problem...
> * PAF Mirage & F-7 have a BVR platform??? But IAF MiG-21 Bison have BVR. It carries 2.
> * JHMCS can out class TCV, for that you must pull the Su-30 MKI for WVR Fight. (With 6 to 10 BVR)
> 
> *Yes our inventory is not much right now, Yes we were weak.. but we are changing rapidly...*
> 
> *As per IAF Chief currently IAF hav 50 % obstacle, in 2015 it reduced to 20 %. So your head ace is still there...*



aaaahhhh, Indians and their big inflated egos. 

The super duper IAF in 2015 and the poor PAF of 2015.

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## Luftwaffe

Trichy...you forgot the order of 45 or so more mig-29s..

Moderators please anyone who is listing this many against this many be suspended. Last couple of pages have become mukeeaye thread.


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## mjnaushad

Why no one answer me....WHY WHY WHY.....i am hearing about MRCA since i joined back in 2008, The MRCA thread first post is in 2005....when will they select MRCA???? I feel like in 2015 we'll be seeing post in 2020 we'll have 35+ MRCAss....


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## AVIAN

mjnaushad said:


> Why no one answer me....WHY WHY WHY.....i am hearing about MRCA since i joined back in 2008, The MRCA thread first post is in 2005....when will they select MRCA???? I feel like in 2015 we'll be seeing post in 2020 we'll have 35+ MRCAss....



Because those MRCA will not purchased on the money sourced from donations and Foriegn aid, rather India's defence Ministry finding it very hard to determine the source of such a huge funding under the light of excessive Import as compared to our export and huge fiscal Deficit.


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## AVIAN

Areesh said:


> If you make just rethink about your previous post you would realize how lame your post was. Even in the worst conditions IAF might not take the risk of bringing all of it's su30mki to the western side. And you are here comparing the future whole fleet of su30 with anticipated fleet of F-16. And you are bringing in MRCA while you haven't signed a deal yet. Like come on yaar. You can't compare the strength by just quoting numbers and giving the final decision.
> 
> You would have to consider the airspace, doctrine, AWACS, Radars, Missiles in the arsenal to give a final decision about someone's strength. And if you have read the threads on this forum, you might a realize that even right now PAF has the strength to give a strong punch to it's adversary. With the present programs that PAF is undergoing for it's modernization, it would be a small but a lethal force to reckon with.



Oh yes, when it comes to IAF, you will preach that how it is so operating in inflexibility as it need to look after *"airspace, doctrine, AWACS, Radars, Missiles in the arsenal"*, but you haven't created any conditions to the PAF which is much more backward in this regard and need no introduction. Then only you manage to pull out and endorse Strong Punch in favour of PAF despite the fact that it cannot operate its elite F-16 fleet because of US obligation. 

Common Yaar, instead of terming others comments lame, you should not comes in harms way and make following the same path.


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## AVIAN

hasnain0099 said:


> there has not been any adjustments in J-10 delivery.The initial batch remains at 36 and eventual requirement upto 150. I ll be glad if you provide me with the source of your information about the adjustments. And yes obviously the FC-20s will come tom, thats why PAF has gone ahead with F-16s as stop gap. at the moment F-16 are entrusted with both AS and Strike role. but when FC-20 will arrive, the roles will be allocated for operational optimization. hope to hear from you soon



Last time I heard that delivery of J-10 is postponed to 2014 because of PAF's dislike of current configuration. 

And if FC-20 is about to join tommorrow then there is no reason for any stop gap measures, let alone any hope of operational optimization.


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## Luftwaffe

Hey you people its not indian mrca thread please stop this!!


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## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> Last time I heard that delivery of J-10 is postponed to 2014 because of *PAF's dislike of current configuration*.
> 
> And if FC-20 is about to join tommorrow then there is no reason for any stop gap measures, let alone any hope of operational optimization.



It has been discussed over and over so as to why PAF did not select J-10A model
1) Its limited Ground Strike Capability
2) JFT 1 is almost at the same tech level as J-10A (F-16 block 40)

and tom means the future i.e. circa 2015


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## AVIAN

hasnain0099 said:


> It has been discussed over and over so as to why PAF did not select J-10A model
> 1) Its limited Ground Strike Capability
> 2) JFT 1 is almost at the same tech level as J-10A (F-16 block 40)
> 
> and tom means the future i.e. circa 2015



Please leave aside F-16 Block 40 as it is beyond the league of Chinese toys. If J-10 had limited ground strike capability then how does numbers very decided at 36, at the same time 150 for eventual purchase?


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## 1000VA

AVIAN said:


> Because those MRCA will not purchased on the money sourced from donations and Foriegn aid, rather India's defence Ministry finding it very hard to determine the source of such a huge funding under the light of excessive Import as compared to our export and huge fiscal Deficit.


I have to add one more point to your post.

It will take time to choose one aircraft from 6 equal contestants but if you have only one choice,it will be much more easier.right?


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## AVIAN

1000VA said:


> I have to add one more point to your post.
> 
> It will take time to choose one aircraft from 6 equal contestants but if you have only one choice,it will be much more easier.right?



It depends, since if we somehow manage to chose F-16IN and F/A-18SH, then most probably we will receive the same on schedule. Since US should be really appreciated the way they have fast track the delivery of C-130SH and P-8I and they are on schedule as far as their production is concerned.


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## mjnaushad

@avain and 1000AV
Everyone rant on aid and stuff but don't answer the question asked....

Really how hard is it for you to answer without going offtopic....

Anyway leave it as nothing good expected from you INDIANS. Its your mindset to troll on Pakistani forum.


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## Storm Force

To be fair the MMRCA story has gone on for too long. 

The indians do work at a sNAILS PACE... 

But i think the Contract is nearing conclusion with order to be placed in July 2011.. 

Once the order is taken you only have to look at the SU30MKI success story to see how quicly the fleet builds up.

130 MKI in service in 5 years half built in HAL in india. 

272 WILL BE FINISHED BY 2015-2016 max " thats a huge number for a very large complex plane...

126 MMRCA in comparison will be easy.. 

In terms of western weapons India already field over 200 Jaguars Mirage2000 & HAWK trainers.

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## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> Please leave aside F-16 Block 40 as it is beyond the league of Chinese toys. If J-10 had limited ground strike capability then how does numbers very decided at 36, at the same time 150 for eventual purchase?



I am talking about technological level. In fact, looking from the information available,PAF has benchmarked Griffon standard for JFT rather than Falcon. For example, the current JFT is comparable to 2000 models of Griffon C/D fighters. JFT II is aimed at matching the current Tech level of Griffon C/Ds while JFT UB is aimed at Griffon NG level. But then again, these are just benchmarks, if JFT is aiming at Griffon NG, then its not necessary that JFT UB will be identical to Griffon NG. Secondly, Please keep in mind that FC-20 is likely to be a derivative of F-10B which has improved ground attack capability


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## mjnaushad

Storm Force said:


> To be fair the MMRCA story has gone on for too long.
> 
> The indians do work at a sNAILS PACE...
> 
> But i think the Contract is nearing conclusion with order to be placed in July 2011..
> 
> Once the order is taken you only have to look at the SU30MKI success story to see how quicly the fleet builds up.
> 
> 130 MKI in service in 5 years half built in HAL in india.
> 
> 272 WILL BE FINISHED BY 2015-2016 max " thats a huge number for a very large complex plane...
> 
> 126 MMRCA in comparison will be easy..
> 
> In terms of western weapons India already field over 200 Jaguars Mirage2000 & HAWK trainers.


Thanks ...


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## Jungibaaz

hasnain0099 said:


> I am talking about technological level. In fact, looking from the information available,PAF has benchmarked Griffon standard for JFT rather than Falcon. For example, the current JFT is comparable to 2000 models of Griffon C/D fighters. JFT II is aimed at matching the current Tech level of Griffon C/Ds while JFT UB is aimed at Griffon NG level. But then again, these are just benchmarks, if JFT is aiming at Griffon NG, then its not necessary that JFT UB will be identical to Griffon NG. Secondly, Please keep in mind that FC-20 is likely to be a derivative of F-10B which has improved ground attack capability



Griffon??? do you mean Gripen??? because I don't think I've ever heard of Griffon.


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## SMC

AVIAN said:


> Because those MRCA will not purchased on the money sourced from donations and Foriegn aid, rather India's defence Ministry finding it very hard to determine the source of such a huge funding under the light of excessive Import as compared to our export and huge fiscal Deficit.



Looks like we have another bharti talking out of their *** with no idea what they're talking about.

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## Areesh

AVIAN said:


> Oh yes, when it comes to IAF, you will preach that how it is so operating in inflexibility as it need to look after "airspace, doctrine, AWACS, Radars, Missiles in the arsenal", but you haven't created any conditions to the PAF which is much more backward in this regard and need no introduction. Then only you manage to pull out and endorse Strong Punch in favour of PAF *despite the fact that it cannot operate its elite F-16 fleet because of US obligation. *
> 
> Common Yaar, instead of terming others comments lame, you should not comes in harms way and make following the same path.



After reading the bold part I don't have much to debate with you. It is better for you to read the running threads about F-16, J-10b and JFT. We can have some discussion than.

Thanks.

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## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> Griffon??? do you mean Gripen??? because I don't think I've ever heard of Griffon.



yes I am referring to the same platform


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## SMC

Areesh said:


> After reading the bold part I don't have much to debate with you. It is better for you to read the running threads about F-16, J-10b and JFT. We can have some discussion than.
> 
> Thanks.



How did I miss this gem?  There are plenty of bhartis who have deluded themselves into believing certain things based on false, inaccurate, or incomplete reports.

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## I FLY HIGH

deckingraj said:


> Couple of flaws above...let me highlight them
> 
> - When i say they will fire in anger i mean majority will see the light of conflict
> - No doubt these MKI's and other fighters will have to enter Pak Air-Space and there is going to be risk, but then that is always going to be true...SAMS are and will always be a threat until we enter the era of Stealth Aircrafts which is a good decade away....Hopefully by then new powerful radars will come into picture but all this is subjective as of now...
> - When an enemy attacks he forces you to change your strategy because he attacks at the time of his choosing and place of his choice..no??? In short he sets the rules of engagement. Anyways PAF will definitely enjoy the home advantage and there should be no doubt about it....
> - Please read my post 270...I know PAF follow defensive doctorine but you got to attack on the other side of the border......In other words your fighters will have to enter our Air-space as well where they not only have to face the music of SAM'S but better fighter planes(atleast on paper).....
> - Remember we have numerical superiority and enough has been discussed on the endurance of MKI's....There is high probablity Offensive sorties in Pak would be too many for Pak to have answer for...
> 
> Mind it i am not a fanboy who just type to win internet war.....I have utmost respect for PAF and have heard many stories about how competent this organization is however in today's high tech warfare one has to have best of the best to increase the chances of coming up with a surprise....I can clearly see that a lot has been done by Paf in last 5-6 years to plunge the gap viz-a-viz IAF and they have succeeded to some extent but it is still an uphill task....I am not sure but think that WOT and floods is going to take its toll.....


Thanks for your balanced views. i think it is good to see indians taking in logically. Yes you are right about PAF. There is a gap but PAF is trying to bridge the gap. Unfortunately our reliance on only USA for defence was not a wise decision ,however we learned a lesson from the sanctions imposed on us in 1990s , we were denied of F16s for which we had already paid for .Consequently there was a gap, but these sanctions from USA came up with an oppertunity for self reliance and procurement from different sources . This gave birth to JF17 , now PAF is working on JF17 block 2 , now chineese technology has also advanced enough,now things are in the right place with J10s, JF17s , F16 BLOCK 50 etc.
Regards.


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## Areesh

SMC said:


> How did I miss this gem?  There are plenty of bhartis who have deluded themselves into believing certain things based on false, inaccurate, or incomplete reports.



Their are some other delusions which are very famous among Bharatis like...

It is because Russia's relations with India that Russia is trying to create hurdles in the supply of RD-93 engines and because of this PAF's plans for JFT are shattered.

Another famous delusion is that because of Bharats influence France has canelled the avionics deal with PAF and this deal is completely dead.

One another famous delusion is that every AC that IAF has is is invincible and SU30 is better than all the AC's of the world except F-22 raptor.

Well what can we say? Delusions!!!


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Their are some other delusions which are very famous among Bharatis like...
> 
> It is because Russia's relations with India that Russia is trying to create hurdles in the supply of RD-93 engines and because of this PAF's plans for JFT are shattered.
> 
> Another famous delusion is that because of Bharats influence France has canelled the avionics deal with PAF and this deal is completely dead.
> 
> One another famous delusion is that every AC that IAF has is is invincible and SU30 is better than all the AC's of the world except F-22 raptor.
> 
> Well what can we say? Delusions!!!




Honest question.. What *is *the status of the french deal? Too much of contradictory statements too and fro on this..


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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Honest question.. What *is *the status of the french deal? Too much of contradictory statements too and fro on this..



It's on and alive. Check the statement of ACM which is the most reliable for all of us.


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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> It's on and alive. Check the statement of ACM which is the most reliable for all of us.



Can you save me some search and point me to it?


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## SMC

Areesh said:


> Their are some other delusions which are very famous among Bharatis like...
> 
> It is because Russia's relations with India that Russia is trying to create hurdles in the supply of RD-93 engines and because of this PAF's plans for JFT are shattered.
> 
> Another famous delusion is that because of Bharats influence France has canelled the avionics deal with PAF and this deal is completely dead.
> 
> One another famous delusion is that every AC that IAF has is is invincible and SU30 is better than all the AC's of the world except F-22 raptor.
> 
> Well what can we say? Delusions!!!



Yup, 4 rumours in particular stand out.

1. JF-17 deal with France is dead.
2. Russia ended supply of RD-93.
3. Pakistan can't use F-16s in a war with India.
4. Pakistan is getting F-16s on aid.

All proven to be false. In all cases, Indians counted their chickens before the hatched - and way too early to be more specific.


----------



## SMC

karan.1970 said:


> Can you save me some search and point me to it?



http://www.defence.pk/forums/918046-post23.html

The second part of the post to be more specific.

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## karan.1970

SMC said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/918046-post23.html
> 
> The second part of the post to be more specific.



Is there any confirmation of this from the French quarters? Specifiacally since they didnt deny the 1st report..


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## SMC

If we're to believe what ACM said - and that is as good a source as you can get besides the French themselves - then the French told him that the deal is still on. French probably didn't deny it since it was a small rumour and no one asked them on it publicly.


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## Donatello

SMC said:


> If we're to believe what ACM said - and that is as good a source as you can get besides the French themselves - then the French told him that the deal is still on. French probably didn't deny it since it was a small rumour and no one asked them on it publicly.



French would give India what it wants and Pakistan what it wants.

The thing is, if India needs French equipment, it doesn't need to black mail French into no giving Pakistan what it wants. If India wanted no French stuff,they wouldn't get it anyway. Hence, French want to play a balancing act, they don't care who gets more, India or Pakistan, as it's their corporation that benefits.


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## karan.1970

penumbra said:


> French would give India what it wants and Pakistan what it wants.
> 
> The thing is, if India needs French equipment, it doesn't need to black mail French into no giving Pakistan what it wants. If India wanted no French stuff,they wouldn't get it anyway. Hence, French want to play a balancing act, they don't care who gets more, India or Pakistan, as it's their corporation that benefits.



when is the deal expected to be finalized? Wasnt it supposed to be in the 1st half of 2010?


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## mjnaushad

karan.1970 said:


> Is there any confirmation of this from the French quarters? Specifiacally since they didnt deny the 1st report..


The fact is PAF is keeping it open but also delaying it.... If you know the current radar is smaller size of J10s radar and which was later improved more in JFT...Now few days back a report said J10s are being tested with AESA and trying to improve it further. So if J10s getting AESA same trick can be revised. Also Pakistan is keeping its Italian option open. PAF is keeping all the options open. We'll really know which radar is coming to JFT when the next batch start. Also possible that PAF is waiting for MRCA to end then make its move.


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## MZUBAIR

J-10B and JF-17Block II will be f9 to counter any MRCA AC.
First let them chose as its been more then 6 years the deal is started...


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> J-10B and JF-17Block II will be f9 to counter any MRCA AC.
> First let them chose as its been more then 6 years the deal is started...



not read many of the earlier posts, but my guess is that a 'combo' of F-16C/D's and F-20's with superior training and motivation would be a good start.

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## mjnaushad

*I think we've discussed enough on this topic, We really don't know which Aircraft is going to win the tender and when. The real and meaningful discussion will start when they'll select the aircraft and we'll know exactly what we are going to deal with.*


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## kingdurgaking

Honestly i dont understand how you are estimating PAF capabilities..
Lets take from old wars
During Wars especially in 1965 PAF managed to penetrate Indian Airspace and bomb most of the planes when they where on ground and they had some honest kills on Air.. but then the Air force was in same generation +- few advantages...

Now the situation is entirely different.. PAF cant penetrate Indian Air space like 1965 to bomb the planes as it is well networked with Russian,Indian,Israel sams.. Even if we take the honest kills now we have huge Fighters in the inventory especially in western command lets forget the south western command for time being..

by 2017

we will have 
3 Squad of MKI 4.5	gen
2 Squad of MMRCA 4.5	gen
3 squad of Mig Bison 3.5	gen
2 Squad of Mig 21 3	gen
1 squad of Jaguar 3	gen
1 Squad or Mirages 2000 4	gen
1 squad of Mig 29 SMT 4	gen


and each squad cotains an average of 20 fighter in western front..
of which 80&#37; are BVR capable and 70% can channel with AWACS now which provides good BMS view.. 

Where as PAF as per argument will have
80 F16 so far ordered 4.5 gen
150 JF 17 ordered so far	4 gen
36 J10 Possibly ordered so far	4.5 gen
180 F7 2-3 gen

(Above figures what you have ordered so far.... we are not taking into the account what you may order)

of which 60% BVR capable and 60% can channel with AWACS 

In addition MKI can fly from Andaman to western border without landing any where in the middle. MKI can fire brahmos in couple of years which can take your Airbase at ease without entering your Airspace.. where as there is a probability in intercepting your cruise missiles fired from JF17 and J10.. 

PAF has only max of 30 bases ... where as indian Western command itself operate more than 20 air bases ... while SEAD operation are going to be very tough for PAF in comparison with IAF... 


while we compare the technology gap that IAF posses in comparison with 1965,1971 war it is far more now .. Added to this, the Quantity in western front alone equating 3/4 th of your squad while we still posses South Western Command and IN squad which will equate your numbers.. 

Honestly on what opinion you are assuming that PAF has equated the capabilities?.. As far numbers i dont think it will equate plane to plane.. As IAF formation will be always MKI /Mig 29 + Mig 21 /Mig Bison + Mirage + Jaguar which will be very tedious to encounter as we dont know how many such formation will fly....

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## mjnaushad

kingdurgaking said:


> ..





> Now the situation is entirely different.. PAF cant penetrate Indian Air space like 1965 to bomb the planes as it is well networked with Russian,Indian,Israel sams..



As one of the TT member in his post said that SAMs are the first causality of war...Specially after the new anti radiation missiles.



> Even if we take the honest kills now we have huge Fighters in the inventory especially in western command lets forget the south western command for time being..



India always enjoyed teh numeric superiority. We ever denied that.




> by 2017
> 
> we will have
> 3 Squad of MKI 4.5	gen
> 2 Squad of MMRCA 4.5	gen
> 3 squad of Mig Bison 3.5	gen
> 2 Squad of Mig 3	gen
> 1 squad of Jaguar 3	gen
> 1 Squad or Mirages 2000 4	gen
> 1 squad of Mig 29 SMT 4	gen
> 
> 
> 
> and each squad cotains an average of 20 fighter in western front..
> of which 80% are BVR capable and 70% can channel with AWACS now which provides good BMS view..



Alrite...Lets for a min assume this is the list you'll have. and assuming that they are in complete awacs network with ground and all. Perfect data communication scenario. But thats how the future war are going to be buddy. Things wont be changed on other side too. And before attacking or defending we'll know how thing are going to be. the AWACS the fighter teh data link.




> Where as PAF as per argument will have
> 80 F16 so far ordered 4.5 gen
> 150 JF 17 ordered so far	4 gen
> 36 J10 Possibly ordered so far	4.5 gen
> 180 F7 2-3 gen
> 
> (Above figures what you have ordered so far.... we are not taking into the account what you may order)
> 
> of which 60% BVR capable and 60% can channel with AWACS



Yup 80 F 16s ordered as in 2010 and you are talking about 2017 aren't you. 40 above for MLU and other block 52.

JFT are going at rate of 2 Per month or 24 p/a. so right now we have 1 squadron of JFT plus starting from 2010 we'll be having all of the 150 JFT operational in 2017. 

JFT will be taking over old f7 and A5s so i dont think F7s will be operational or will see fight. Plus F7 is no where a 2 gen aircraft. I wished you'd use more brain before writing such thing.


So tell me the Aircrafts i mentioned above how are they 40 % NOT BVR and cannot channel with AWACS. F16s just attended Red Flag. JFT is BVR plus have data link capable. J10 do i need to talk about it too. 


> In addition MKI can fly from Andaman to western border without landing any where in the middle. MKI can fire brahmos in couple of years which can take your Airbase at ease without entering your Airspace.. where as there is a probability in intercepting your cruise missiles fired from JF17 and J10..


Going on cruise missile is another debate. Discussed thousand time. If i say anything here it wont be a AVIATION thread anymore. But just one thing. Every country have its own need. our subsonic missile with deep strike are enough to do teh job. 

Plus the A2A refueling will enhance PAF capability to stay in air more without need of landing and refueling.


> PAF has only max of 30 bases ... where as indian Western command itself operate more than 20 air bases ... while SEAD operation are going to be very tough for PAF in comparison with IAF...



Wasn't that how it was all the time.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

kingdurgaking said:


> Honestly i dont understand how you are estimating PAF capabilities..
> Lets take from old wars
> During Wars especially in 1965 PAF managed to penetrate Indian Airspace and bomb most of the planes when they where on ground and they had some honest kills on Air.. but then the Air force was in same generation +- few advantages...
> 
> Now the situation is entirely different.. PAF cant penetrate Indian Air space like 1965 to bomb the planes as it is well networked with Russian,Indian,Israel sams.. Even if we take the honest kills now we have huge Fighters in the inventory especially in western command lets forget the south western command for time being..



Watever pal... the bottom line is u still had more air crafts, more fire power and better Tech,..... u know the rest (wat happened to IAF)..




> by 2017
> 
> we will have
> 3 Squad of MKI 4.5	gen
> 2 Squad of MMRCA 4.5	gen
> *3 squad of Mig Bison 3.5	gen
> 2 Squad of Mig 3	gen
> 1 squad of Jaguar* 3	gen
> 1 Squad or Mirages 2000 4	gen
> 1 squad of Mig 29 SMT 4	gen




Ur mig 27s,mig 21s and jaguars are obsolete are going to be phased out..

2) MRCA i wont bet on it.... 





> Where as PAF as per argument will have
> 80 F16 so far ordered 4.5 gen



16-18 more coming as well as the 30 or more embargoed ones.
It will be over a 100 at minimum( as of the near future).




> 150 JF 17 ordered so far	4 gen



JFT BLOCK II will be coming late next year.... the requirement or total planned JFTs are around 250+



> 36 J10 Possibly ordered so far	4.5 gen



All 36 will be present by 2014.... 150 rumoured and planned...still in 3 years u know how much more can be added to the inventory.




> 180 F7 2-3 gen



Genuis they are BVR capable, new air frames.customised.... also mirage ROSE will stay!




> (Above figures what you have ordered so far.... we are not taking into the account what you may order)
> 
> of which 60% BVR capable and 60% can channel with AWACS


Count again.



> In addition MKI can fly from Andaman to western border without landing any where in the middle. MKI can fire brahmos in couple of years which can take your Airbase at ease without entering your Airspace.. where as there is a probability in intercepting your cruise missiles fired from JF17 and J10..



Watever satisfies ur ego and fantasy.


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## karan.1970

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> 16-18 more coming as well as the 30 or more embargoed ones.
> It will be over a 100 at minimum( as of the near future).



I remember in April the talk of 18 F 16's blk 52 to be delivered till december. How many of them have already made it so far?


----------



## kingdurgaking

mjnaushad said:


> As one of the TT member in his post said that SAMs are the first causality of war...Specially after the new anti radiation missiles.
> 
> India always enjoyed teh numeric superiority. We ever denied that.



So when it is destroyed or before it is getting destoryed isnt enough to alarm our Fighters to get on airbone?.. so your earlier advantage of taking the fighters from the base will be totally gone and our fighters will be scrambled to face you now.. which is more dangerous for your fighters that the one at base .. which will put you on disadvantage position right?...



> Alrite...Lets for a min assume this is the list you'll have. and assuming that they are in complete awacs network with ground and all. Perfect data communication scenario. But thats how the future war are going to be buddy. Things wont be changed on other side too. And before attacking or defending we'll know how thing are going to be. the AWACS the fighter teh data link.



FYI, I have given the same assumption to PAF also.. its a Known secret for PAF... Only defending will not work.. PAF have to do strike first effectively before returning to defending IAF fighters.. You can check your history how they managed to do all the kills... There is no way PAF can rely on only defending our aggression.. This strategy will fail miserably for PAF and you will inturn resort to activating your nukes 



> Yup 80 F 16s ordered as in 2010 and you are talking about 2017 aren't you. 40 above for MLU and other block 52.



So far *till date* you have ordered 80 F16 to take your total count to 120?.. this is a news for me... As far i know.. PAF ordered 18 first and 18 latter total 36 and you had 40 so total around 80.. hmmm which means i have missed the other 40 or it is your guess 40 will be ordered.. if so are this also Block 52? 



> JFT are going at rate of 2 Per month or 24 p/a. so right now we have 1 squadron of JFT plus starting from 2010 we'll be having all of the 150 JFT operational in 2017.
> JFT will be taking over old f7 and A5s so i dont think F7s will be operational or will see fight. Plus F7 is no where a 2 gen aircraft. I wished you'd use more brain before writing such thing.



That is why i have mentioned 150.. As far as the information China has given 150 on soft loans.. or it has given more kya?



> So tell me the Aircrafts i mentioned above how are they 40 % NOT BVR and cannot channel with AWACS. F16s just attended Red Flag. JFT is BVR plus have data link capable. J10 do i need to talk about it too.



If you have phased out F-7 with JF17 and still you have equal no of Mirages (which i forgot to mention) which will not be BVR capable.. Any way your squadron strength remains the same.. 




> Plus the A2A refueling will enhance PAF capability to stay in air more without need of landing and refueling.



Yes it will enhance... but Mid air refueling is not going to help when in war with India as most of the fighters will not have to travel 1000 miles to bomb.. Where as Mid air refueling will be useful for IAF because MKI's deployed in Andaman and other far east base can be put into action and they can go back to there base after there sortie is done....



> Wasn't that how it was all the time.



Yes during 60-90's these bases are safe because there is no suitable A2G missile but now both of us posses the capability and for IAF it is just 30 but for PAF it is more than 100 to bomb.. which will be very difficult to PAF... which was my argument...


So as per my logic no way you can bridge the gap even with all the future inventory that you have ordered(I mean so far you have only ordered no predictions) with time moves on there will be more technology and numerical gap with IAF even you have ordered J-xx or F-35.... 

P.S i am open for good discussion..  nd no .. I hope what ever i said is logical and you can disagree by putting your suitable argument

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## kingdurgaking

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Watever pal... the bottom line is u still had more air crafts, more fire power and better Tech,..... u know the rest (wat happened to IAF)..



That is what dear i told you in my earlier argument.. During those war both Air force possessed same generation Aircraft with +- advantage on both side ... right now it is not the case .. I hope you understood my point





> Ur mig 27s,mig 21s and jaguars are obsolete are going to be phased out..
> 
> 2) MRCA i wont bet on it....




I havent mentioned Mig 27's at all as they are mostly deployed in Eastern command... but Mig bisons and Mig 21 will be phased out by Tejas-2 ... And you don't need to worry about MMRCA has things have come so long .. If india cancels it will loose the global image .. I can expect atleast 5 Squad by 2017 but eventually i have specified only 2 squad hoping it will be deployed in western command




> 16-18 more coming as well as the 30 or more embargoed ones.
> It will be over a 100 at minimum( as of the near future).



Are you guessing or is it ordered? 




> JFT BLOCK II will be coming late next year.... the requirement or total planned JFTs are around 250+



You have any source pointing GoP has given ordered for 250 JF17?




> All 36 will be present by 2014.... 150 rumoured and planned...still in 3 years u know how much more can be added to the inventory.



yes 36 added... 150 rumored .. so you mean to say all 150 will be in your Air Force by 2017.. will it fall under logical discussion?



> Genuis they are BVR capable, new air frames.customised.... also mirage ROSE will stay!
> 
> Count again.




it seems all F7 will be replaced by JF17 before 2015 and Your Mirages are not BVR capable as per the specification*(i repeat as per specification only)*.. feel free to prove your point with a link

so i guess still the squadron strength remains same right?




> Watever satisfies ur ego and fantasy.



There is no reason for ego buddy.. we are buying Mid air re fuller only for this purpose .. and our IAF chief have pointed this couple of time of what i have mentioned.... 

And i dont have to expose my ego by expressing the facts.. feel free to disagree


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## karan.1970

karan.1970 said:


> I remember in April the talk of 18 F 16's blk 52 to be delivered till december. How many of them have already made it so far?



Anyone/???


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## mjnaushad

karan.1970 said:


> Anyone/???


As far i know the delivery was delayed on PAF request because of the floods...Could have given a bad image when the surrounding are in flood a brand new f16 landing in the base...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

kingdurgaking said:


> That is what dear i told you in my earlier argument.. During those war both Air force possessed same generation Aircraft with +- advantage on both side ... right now it is not the case .. I hope you understood my point



Who had numerical superiority as well as technical one? 
anyways... lets forget it.





> *I havent mentioned Mig 27's *at all as they are mostly deployed in Eastern command... *but Mig bisons and Mig 21 will be phased out by Tejas-2 *... And you don't need to worry about MMRCA has things have come so long .. If india cancels it will loose the global image .. I *can expect atleast 5 Squad by 2017 *but eventually i have specified only 2 squad hoping it will be deployed in western command



Actually u have.... check ur post.

First get LCA mk-1 operational then think of mk-2.... also do keep in mind how mig 27s and 21s are falling out of the skies and so are ur jaguars... they are obsolete i repeat again... OBSOLETE.





> Are you guessing or is it ordered?




18 more are comming as per ACM and out of the embargoed some 14 have returned rest will also be returned.
Thts why they are thinking of buying a Air refueller for F-16s.



> You have any source pointing GoP has given ordered for 250 JF17?


It has been reported a hundred times... by alot of websites... care to search?





> yes 36 added... 150 rumored .. so you mean to say all 150 will be in your Air Force by 2017.. will it fall under logical discussion?



Rumored by all defence sites for examle asian defence,kanwa,janes kempur etc.... not all 150 but aleast 80-100+ dont u think?







> it seems all F7 will be replaced by JF17 before 2015 and Your Mirages are not BVR capable as per the specification*(i repeat as per specification only)*.. feel free to prove your point with a link



F-7s arent going anywhere coz most of them were purchased in the late 90s when Pakistan was embargoed..... its the A-5s tht are getting phased out as of now.

And yes Mirages which were Upgraded with ROSE Prog... are BVR capable and so are F-7Ps.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a-6.html

Try brahmos.... and we will be sitting there just watching right?

Try babur,Raad and other babies....


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## mjnaushad

kingdurgaking said:


> ..





> So when it is destroyed or before it is getting destoryed isnt enough to alarm our Fighters to get on airbone?.. so your earlier advantage of taking the fighters from the base will be totally gone and our fighters will be scrambled to face you now.. which is more dangerous for your fighters that the one at base .. which will put you on disadvantage position right?...



Yup we'll fire Anti Radiation and then wait 2 hours and then attack 



> FYI, I have given the same assumption to PAF also.. its a Known secret for PAF... Only defending will not work.. PAF have to do strike first effectively before returning to defending IAF fighters.. You can check your history how they managed to do all the kills... There is no way PAF can rely on only defending our aggression.. This strategy will fail miserably for PAF and you will inturn resort to activating your nukes



Fan boy stuff...We'll be sitting ducks and will miserably fail...Ok let it be this way.



> So far *till date* you have ordered 80 F16 to take your total count to 120?.. this is a news for me... As far i know.. PAF ordered 18 first and 18 latter total 36 and you had 40 so total around 80.. hmmm which means i have missed the other 40 or it is your guess 40 will be ordered.. if so are this also Block 52?



When i said on order. i meant 40+ for MLU ordered and are in up gradation process and new F16s. I hope i clear my point now.





> That is why i have mentioned 150.. As far as the information China has given 150 on soft loans.. or it has given more kya?



Source please....
2ndly even if this the case which i doubt. All matters is that they fly when needed. 

So you say you are here for discussion still brought something out of the blue. 

Yeah you are not here to flame. 



> If you have phased out F-7 with JF17 and still you have equal no of Mirages (which i forgot to mention) which will not be BVR capable.. Any way your squadron strength remains the same..



On which ground you are saying Mirages are not BVR capable

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/64160-could-f-7p-pgs-even-mirages-upgrade-bvr-2.html





> Yes it will enhance... but Mid air refueling is not going to help when in war with India as most of the fighters will not have to travel 1000 miles to bomb.. Where as Mid air refueling will be useful for IAF because MKI's deployed in Andaman and other far east base can be put into action and they can go back to there base after there sortie is done....



And yes PAF is stupid to waste million on A2A refueling ACs.


> Yes during 60-90's these bases are safe because there is no suitable A2G missile but now both of us posses the capability and for IAF it is just 30 but for PAF it is more than 100 to bomb.. which will be very difficult to PAF... which was my argument...



Yes..>Those which we cant bomb is going to face the fighters in the air...Thats what fighters are for.



> So as per my logic no way you can bridge the gap even with all the future inventory that you have ordered(I mean so far you have only ordered no predictions) with time moves on there will be more technology and numerical gap with IAF even you have ordered J-xx or F-35....



I think most in the world think their air force is better than their rivals. And if war broke out they will do a clean sweep. But history have proven false. I think you should roam around more on PDF and get to know even with low resources PAF won the air wars.


----------



## Areesh

> That is what dear i told you in my earlier argument.. During those war both Air force possessed same generation Aircraft with +- advantage on both side ... right now it is not the case .. I hope you understood my point



So according to you this is better 







Than this...






And this...






Lolzzz.


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## kingdurgaking

Areesh said:


> So according to you this is better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Than this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lolzzz.




I was talking about generations and not which is superior.. And Mig 21 was widely used in 1971 and you saw the outcome of it.. and you had similar Mirage 3 aircraft at that time... Oke let me explain argument further .. Does Mig 21 stand equal against Mirage 3? Yes

But does it against F16? No


----------



## lionheart1

kingdurgaking said:


> So when it is destroyed or before it is getting destoryed isnt enough to alarm our Fighters to get on airbone?.. so your earlier advantage of taking the fighters from the base will be totally gone and our fighters will be scrambled to face you now.. which is more dangerous for your fighters that the one at base .. which will put you on disadvantage position right?...
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, I have given the same assumption to PAF also.. its a Known secret for PAF... Only defending will not work.. PAF have to do strike first effectively before returning to defending IAF fighters.. You can check your history how they managed to do all the kills... There is no way PAF can rely on only defending our aggression.. This strategy will fail miserably for PAF and you will inturn resort to activating your nukes
> 
> 
> 
> So far *till date* you have ordered 80 F16 to take your total count to 120?.. this is a news for me... As far i know.. PAF ordered 18 first and 18 latter total 36 and you had 40 so total around 80.. hmmm which means i have missed the other 40 or it is your guess 40 will be ordered.. if so are this also Block 52?
> 
> 
> 
> That is why i have mentioned 150.. As far as the information China has given 150 on soft loans.. or it has given more kya?
> 
> 
> 
> If you have phased out F-7 with JF17 and still you have equal no of Mirages (which i forgot to mention) which will not be BVR capable.. Any way your squadron strength remains the same..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it will enhance... but Mid air refueling is not going to help when in war with India as most of the fighters will not have to travel 1000 miles to bomb.. Where as Mid air refueling will be useful for IAF because MKI's deployed in Andaman and other far east base can be put into action and they can go back to there base after there sortie is done....
> 
> 
> 
> Yes during 60-90's these bases are safe because there is no suitable A2G missile but now both of us posses the capability and for IAF it is just 30 but for PAF it is more than 100 to bomb.. which will be very difficult to PAF... which was my argument...
> 
> 
> So as per my logic no way you can bridge the gap even with all the future inventory that you have ordered(I mean so far you have only ordered no predictions) with time moves on there will be more technology and numerical gap with IAF even you have ordered J-xx or F-35....
> 
> P.S i am open for good discussion..  nd no .. I hope what ever i said is logical and you can disagree by putting your suitable argument



why are wasting your time, cant you know is knowledge,according to him we should not count on almost done deal of mmrca, we should count and believe they will have 150 F-16 block 60 .(and america will give clarity of 150 F-16)


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## TaimiKhan

850 or so posts and still going on and still not decided what can be the possible answer. 

Is it that hard to decide ??

Americans are not gonna sell to us, nor can we afford or want from them. 

Same with Europeans, very expensive as well as many other issues. 

Russians, out of the question for decades. 

French, may be, but difficult as its expensive, as well as no other operator of the rafale or in numbers. 

Thus, what is left, the Chinese and the FC-20, custom built with our own requirements, specifications and fully meeting our operational needs. 

So, the answer is very simple, FC-20 is the only best and viable option to counter the future MRCA or even the Flankers.
*
Is it that hard to decide ??*

How many would be procured, what should be the balance between fighters or what should be the ratio against IAF, etc etc, are all the answers which will come with time, depending on the condition of different factors. The more the better, simple as that, which needs money and that is the real issue.

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## softtec

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Who had numerical superiority as well as technical one?
> anyways... lets forget it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually u have.... check ur post.
> 
> *First get LCA mk-1 operational then think of mk-2*.... also do keep in mind how mig 27s and 21s are falling out of the skies and *so are ur jaguars... they are obsolete i repeat again... OBSOLETE.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 18 more are comming as per ACM and out of the embargoed some 14 have returned rest will also be returned.
> Thts why they are thinking of buying a Air refueller for F-16s.
> 
> 
> It has been reported a hundred times... by alot of websites... care to search?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Rumored* by all defence sites for examle asian defence,kanwa,janes kempur etc.... not all 150 *but aleast 80-100*+ dont u think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-7s arent going anywhere coz most of them were purchased in the late 90s when Pakistan was embargoed..... its the A-5s tht are getting phased out as of now.
> 
> And yes Mirages which were Upgraded with ROSE Prog... are BVR capable and so are F-7Ps.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a-6.html
> 
> Try brahmos.... and we will be sitting there just watching right?
> 
> Try babur,Raad and other babies....



Sir, U r high on emotion.

1) To make u happy LCA mk1 will get IOC in dec and have 40 *already in order* to be delivered by 2014. 
2)Remember US F16s were not even detect these Mig21 Bisons and couldn't even locked it.LOL..*Think about what will happen to ur F16s when Bison starts firing R77*. Jaguars with *latest upgrade *getting almost all the top notch *western avionics and jammers of MKI*.If its obsolete, then what u will say about ur beloved JFT.
3)Till now PAF didn't even place order of initial 36 J10B. I guess(If place order in time) u may get them by 2015.

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## Jungibaaz

TaimiKhan said:


> 850 or so posts and still going on and still not decided what can be the possible answer.
> 
> Is it that hard to decide ??
> 
> Americans are not gonna sell to us, nor can we afford or want from them.
> 
> Same with Europeans, very expensive as well as many other issues.
> 
> Russians, out of the question for decades.
> 
> French, may be, but difficult as its expensive, as well as no other operator of the rafale or in numbers.
> 
> Thus, what is left, the Chinese and the FC-20, custom built with our own requirements, specifications and fully meeting our operational needs.
> 
> So, the answer is very simple, FC-20 is the only best and viable option to counter the future MRCA or even the Flankers.
> *
> Is it that hard to decide ??*


I always believed the FC-20 was the best answer to MRCA and the best option for a 4.5gen fighter for PAF.


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## Areesh

kingdurgaking said:


> I was talking about generations and not which is superior.. And Mig 21 was widely used in 1971 and you saw the outcome of it.. and you had similar Mirage 3 aircraft at that time... Oke let me explain argument further .. Does Mig 21 stand equal against Mirage 3? Yes
> 
> But does it against F16? No



And how many Mirages PAF had in 1971 comparison to IAF fleet of Mig 21?

Just 24 Mirages!!! Do a research and tell me how many Mig-21 IAF had at the time of 1971 war... You might your answer. By the way IAF performance in 1971 with all this force was average or even less than that. Anyways it is off topic.


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## TaimiKhan

Jungibaaz said:


> I always believed the FC-20 was the best answer to MRCA and the best option for a 4.5gen fighter for PAF.



It is, as said, there is no other option for us. We have experience in lot of fighters, even we can check out some of the latest 4.5 gen fighters, we even have done, nearly all of them. Thus we know what is needed, we can push the Chinese into making as much as possible and have something for ourselves, just like JF-17.

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## Areesh

Jungibaaz said:


> I always believed the FC-20 was the best answer to MRCA and the best option for a 4.5gen fighter for PAF.



They indeed are. The most feasible AC for PAF right now.


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## indiaworldpower

mjnaushad said:


> Why no one answer me....WHY WHY WHY.....i am hearing about MRCA since i joined back in 2008, The MRCA thread first post is in 2005....when will they select MRCA???? I feel like in 2015 we'll be seeing post in 2020 we'll have 35+ MRCAss....



This is how bureaucrats and government work in India. 10 years is less, sometime it takes for ever....eg LCA, Arjun Tanks..


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## kingdurgaking

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Who had numerical superiority as well as technical one?
> anyways... lets forget it.



Yes accepted we had numerical superiority but technically we owned the same generation of fighters.. 



> Actually u have.... check ur post.
> 
> First get LCA mk-1 operational then think of mk-2.... also do keep in mind how mig 27s and 21s are falling out of the skies and so are ur jaguars... they are obsolete i repeat again... OBSOLETE.



Now i understand for Mig you took everything... But i referred mig only Mig 21...  ....

Jaguar Upgrades are taking place.. Mig 27 is nowhere in the picture.. but during the war they will be used.. which was my argument... 



> 18 more are comming as per ACM and out of the embargoed some 14 have returned rest will also be returned.
> Thts why they are thinking of buying a Air refueller for F-16s.



so you have got 110 F16's in the inventory 



> It has been reported a hundred times... by alot of websites... care to search?


Oke lets assume 300 JF 17 how many by 2017? all 300? we will take 250 .. As per source 300 JF17 will be made to replace all F-7, Mirage and other older generation fighters... 




> Rumored by all defence sites for examle asian defence,kanwa,janes kempur etc.... not all 150 but aleast 80-100+ dont u think?



As far rumored i am not sure whether to take oke lets take 100 J10 for your happines...




> F-7s arent going anywhere coz most of them were purchased in the late 90s when Pakistan was embargoed..... its the A-5s tht are getting phased out as of now.



But as per reports F-7 will be replaced by JF17.... so we will drop it as we added 250 JF17 .. 



> And yes Mirages which were Upgraded with ROSE Prog... are BVR capable and so are F-7Ps.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a-6.html



hmmm are they some PAF professionals?



> Try brahmos.... and we will be sitting there just watching right?
> Try babur,Raad and other babies....



I said we both have capabilities.. i pointed you have just 30 bases and we have more that 100+ bases.. 


so on a whole 

300 JF17 block 2 4.5 gen
150 J10 4.5 gen
110 F16 block 52 -CFT 4.5 gen

= 560 

against 

3 Squad of MKI 4.5	gen
2 Squad of MMRCA 4.5	gen (Lets say only Western command has deployed and only 2 squad was created by 2017)
3 squad of Mig Bison 3.5	gen
2 squad of Jaguar 3	gen
1 Squad or Mirages 2000 4	gen
1 squad of Mig 29 SMT 4	gen

= 240 western command + around 200 south western command + Navi force which comes to around 500+ fighters alone capable to defend your entire futuristic force..

I can understand PAF will be able to fill the technology gap(Not numerical) with your futuristic orders and which again will be widened again when our older fighter get replaced with capable fighters 


As for our MMRCA 150 J10's are needed to defend our MMRCA


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## kingdurgaking

mjnaushad said:


> Yup we'll fire Anti Radiation and then wait 2 hours and then attack
> 
> Fan boy stuff...We'll be sitting ducks and will miserably fail...Ok let it be this way.



Buddy you forgot that we both have AWACS when a fighter of yours enters LOC itself our fighters will be on air.. forget about firing missiles... As i said PAF lost the advantage of striking first with the introduction of Radars and AWACS at the border..

Though looks like a Fan boy stuff if you analyze with patience what i have said holds true..




> When i said on order. i meant 40+ for MLU ordered and are in up gradation process and new F16s. I hope i clear my point now.
> 
> Source please....
> 2ndly even if this the case which i doubt. All matters is that they fly when needed.
> 
> So you say you are here for discussion still brought something out of the blue.
> 
> Yeah you are not here to flame.
> 
> 
> 
> On which ground you are saying Mirages are not BVR capable
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/64160-could-f-7p-pgs-even-mirages-upgrade-bvr-2.html



Your friend has given the requisites thanks....





> And yes PAF is stupid to waste million on A2A refueling ACs.



Not sure what was your strategy for this Mid air refuellers.. is it just for a show?



> Yes..>Those which we cant bomb is going to face the fighters in the air...Thats what fighters are for.


Fine .. but they are not going to face your fighters but your Air base will ... If given a chance we will test it on your base  for your satisfaction as we are satisfied 



> I think most in the world think their air force is better than their rivals. And if war broke out they will do a clean sweep. But history have proven false. I think you should roam around more on PDF and get to know even with low resources PAF won the air wars.



Yes you did it when we had just fighters... Now things are different buddy ...


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## kingdurgaking

Areesh said:


> And how many Mirages PAF had in 1971 comparison to IAF fleet of Mig 21?
> 
> Just 24 Mirages!!! Do a research and tell me how many Mig-21 IAF had at the time of 1971 war... You might your answer. By the way IAF performance in 1971 with all this force was average or even less than that. Anyways it is off topic.



Yes buddy... accepted.. thats why the performance of IAF improved in 1971 compared to 1965... where as PAF performance went down when we compared to 1965 .. all though IAF lost lot of Fighters in PAF preemptive strike as it was done in 1965... still IAF managed to fly more sorties


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## DESERT FIGHTER

kingdurgaking said:


> Yes accepted we had numerical superiority but technically we owned the same generation of fighters..



I bet Gnats and mig 21 were more advanced then sabre?anyways even then with numerical and technological advantages indian airforce was tarnished by PAF.



> Now i understand for Mig you took everything... But i referred mig only Mig 21...  ....



I hear mig 21s will be phased out by 2016?

MiG-21s will fly till 2016: IAF - The Times of India


> Jaguar Upgrades are taking place..



Anyways buddy... its(100 jaguars in IAF) obsolete an old airframe... its planned to be retired 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ce-200-fighter-aircrafts-next-five-years.html




> Mig 27 is nowhere in the picture.. but during the war they will be used.. which was my argument...







> so you have got 110 F16's in the inventory


Right now we have 80+..... 18 more will be bought and embargoed will be returned.


> As far rumored i am not sure whether to take oke lets take 100 J10 for your happines...



Not for my happines but ur welcome to google it.




> But as per reports F-7 will be replaced by JF17.... so we will drop it as we added 250 JF17 ..




Dude dont u get it? Most of the F-7Ps are new bought in 1998 or something! why would they be retired by 2017?
Its the damn A-5s and non ROSE mirages tht will be retired!!


> hmmm are they some PAF professionals?



We do have PAF pilots on PDF which contribute..... also the specs and the links are given in the thread aswell.



> I said we both have capabilities.. i pointed you have just 30 bases and we have more that 100+ bases..



How big is ur country?



> so on a whole
> 
> 300 JF17 block 2 4.5 gen
> 150 J10 4.5 gen
> 110 F16 block 52 -CFT 4.5 gen
> 
> = 560



JFT will come in 3 blocks! and eventually all will be upgraded to BLK-III.
Also here ur forgetting Mirage ROSE, F-7Ps..

against 



> 3 Squad of MKI 4.5	gen
> *2 Squad of MMRCA 4.5	gen (Lets say only Western command has deployed and only 2 squad was created by 2017)*
> *3 squad of Mig Bison 3.5	gen
> 2 squad of Jaguar 3	gen*
> 1 Squad or Mirages 2000 4	gen
> 1 squad of Mig 29 SMT 4	gen



Jags,migs will be phased out by 2016..... MRCA nobdy knows?! u have to select it first then place an order for it.... which itself takes years for delivery.

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## kingdurgaking

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I bet Gnats and mig 21 were more advanced then sabre?anyways even then with numerical and technological advantages indian airforce was tarnished by PAF.


No buddy they may look advance in performance wise they where 2 gen fighters.. and Mig 21 bison comes under 3rd gen



> I hear mig 21s will be phased out by 2016?
> 
> MiG-21s will fly till 2016: IAF - The Times of India



yes buddy mig 21 and not bisons.. i guess they will stay further




> Anyways buddy... its(100 jaguars in IAF) obsolete an old airframe... its planned to be retired
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ce-200-fighter-aircrafts-next-five-years.html



No dude Jags are going for a substantial upgrade and they will hold good for a decade .. until AMCA comes and replace them... 







> Right now we have 80+..... 18 more will be bought and embargoed will be returned.
> 
> 
> Not for my happines but ur welcome to google it.



i have included 110 Block 52 an optimistic view




> Dude dont u get it? Most of the F-7Ps are new bought in 1998 or something! why would they be retired by 2017?
> Its the damn A-5s and non ROSE mirages tht will be retired!!



I got your point but i have a article which states PAF will maintain only 3 type of fighters after 2015.. and i have included 300 JF17 block 2 by 2017 which is more optimistic..




> How big is ur country?


Very big dont you see 7+ times more than you.. do you think you have got that much fire power fire.. honestly i feel no.. but from IAF point of view 30 bases is nothing in there fire power.. am i sounding logical now?




> JFT will come in 3 blocks! and eventually all will be upgraded to BLK-III.
> Also here ur forgetting Mirage ROSE, F-7Ps..
> 
> against



I have put Optimistic 300 block 2 which i a 4.5 gen fighters .. do i need to count your rose and F-7? i dont think so... 




> Jags,migs will be phased out by 2016..... MRCA nobdy knows?! u have to select it first then place an order for it.... which itself takes years for delivery.



Only older Migs will be phased out by Tejas-1 dude .. Rest will stay upgraded.. so both western ,south western + IN has enough fighters in current inventory which are strong enough to hold your future fighters


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## mjnaushad

kingdurgaking said:


> Your friend has given the requisites thanks....


Please come with that softloan source....A credible one...


----------



## mjnaushad

TaimiKhan said:


> 850 or so posts and still going on and still not decided what can be the possible answer.
> 
> Is it that hard to decide ??
> 
> Americans are not gonna sell to us, nor can we afford or want from them.
> 
> Same with Europeans, very expensive as well as many other issues.
> 
> Russians, out of the question for decades.
> 
> French, may be, but difficult as its expensive, as well as no other operator of the rafale or in numbers.
> 
> Thus, what is left, the Chinese and the FC-20, custom built with our own requirements, specifications and fully meeting our operational needs.
> 
> So, the answer is very simple, FC-20 is the only best and viable option to counter the future MRCA or even the Flankers.
> *
> Is it that hard to decide ??*
> 
> How many would be procured, what should be the balance between fighters or what should be the ratio against IAF, etc etc, are all the answers which will come with time, depending on the condition of different factors. The more the better, simple as that, which needs money and that is the real issue.


I said this before. Lets close the thread until the MRCA is decided. See you guys again in 2015.


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## foxbat

mjnaushad said:


> I said this before. Lets close the thread until the MRCA is decided. See you guys again in 2015.



How far is the JFT block 2... ?? Quite some.. Right? You dont even have a second squad of Block 1 started. Still that gets refered to in every aviation thread.. Then why such a restrictive view towards MRCA?


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## mjnaushad

foxbat said:


> How far is the JFT block 2... ?? Quite some.. Right? You dont even have a second squad of Block 1 started. Still that gets refered to in every aviation thread.. Then why such a restrictive view towards MRCA?


Is there anything left to discuss.....

We got the answer...And repeated it many many times

the most recent is Taimi's post 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/11236-pafs-possible-answer-mrca-57.html#post1212059


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## kingdurgaking

mjnaushad said:


> Please come with that softloan source....A credible one...



hmmm i am not sure what is credible from your point of view..

I view the below link has credible one 

ASIAN DEFENCE: First Pakistan made JF-17 to fly by end of 2009: PAF Air Chief


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## mjnaushad

kingdurgaking said:


> hmmm i am not sure what is credible from your point of view..
> 
> I view the below link has credible one
> 
> ASIAN DEFENCE: First Pakistan made JF-17 to fly by end of 2009: PAF Air Chief


First of all its Blogspot

I am assuming you meant this part



> Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman inaugurated the final assembly work in a ceremony at Kamra. Top military and civilian officials of Pakistan and China attended, senior officers of Chinese company CATIC attended the ceremony. "The project was near to end in 1999 due to sanction imposed on Pakistan after the nuclear tests but in 2001 it was reviewed. The agreement in this respect could not be signed in 2007-08 due to unavailability of funds but Government of China arranged loans on soft installment and the role of CATIC Company in this respect is laudable", Qamar said.



Where it says the planes are on Softloan. More like he is talking on some investment required at the end of the project in 07-08 which was financed by softloans. Maybe it was about the facility to build in Pakistan. we dont know.

I like when you guys assume


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## kingdurgaking

mjnaushad said:


> F
> Where it says the planes are on Softloan. More like he is talking on some investment required at the end of the project in 07-08 which was financed by softloans. Maybe it was about the facility to build in Pakistan. we dont know.
> 
> I like when you guys assume



You also do assume here that it may be for the facility... It could be also for the fighters.... And i have seen such a discussion do happening here... And the blogger hasnt given his views but you Chiefs view..


----------



## applesauce

softtec said:


> 2)Remember *US F16s were not even detect these Mig21 Bisons* and couldn't even locked it.LOL..Think about what will happen to ur F16s when Bison starts firing R77.



i have a real hard time believing this


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Durga ur welcome to count our F-7Ps and ROSE Mirages tht will stay till 2020.

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## Jungibaaz

foxbat said:


> How far is the JFT block 2... ?? Quite some.. Right? You dont even have a second squad of Block 1 started. Still that gets refered to in every aviation thread.. Then why such a restrictive view towards MRCA?



LOL! you don't even have MMRCA decision finalized and your talking about 5th gen... hypocrisy at it's best.

and after every 50 jf-17s they get upgraded. so you could see a block 2 prototype in 2011 or 2012.


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## praveen007

^^^ our 5th gen plane is already finaled and contract had been sign. unlike some imeginary block-2 of some plane.


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## Jungibaaz

praveen007 said:


> ^^^ our 5th gen plane is already finaled and contract had been sign. unlike some imeginary block-2 of some plane.



lol show the orders list plz...

and btw my post meant to reply to how he was saying that pakistan jumps to next thing before completing the first.


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## foxbat

Jungibaaz said:


> LOL! you don't even have MMRCA decision finalized and your talking about 5th gen... hypocrisy at it's best.
> 
> and after every 50 jf-17s they get upgraded. so you could see a block 2 prototype in 2011 or 2012.



My friend.. MRCA candidates are all flying and the most probable one has been operational for quite some time now. So its just the question of signing the contract. 

With JF 17, which I believe is a good plane, getting it to block 2, there are still too many variables. Engine is not yet finalized. French deal for avionics is uncertain and the new Chinese suit is still under development. But you are right talking about it. In this industry, the plans are actually made for next 10-15 years. You are perfectly fine talking about the plane whose prototype will emerge probably in 2 years. But then so are Indian members who talk about a plane that has been operational for some time and is awaiting a sign on the dotted line or about the 5th gen plane, whose prototype flew a few months back.. Dont you think so?

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## Jungibaaz

foxbat said:


> My friend.. MRCA candidates are all flying and the most probable one has been operational for quite some time now. So its just the question of signing the contract.
> 
> With JF 17, which I believe is a good plane, getting it to block 2, there are still too many variables. Engine is not yet finalized. French deal for avionics is uncertain and the new Chinese suit is still under development. But you are right talking about it. In this industry, the plans are actually made for next 10-15 years. You are perfectly fine talking about the plane whose prototype will emerge probably in 2 years. But then so are Indian members who talk about a plane that has been operational for some time and is awaiting a sign on the dotted line or about the 5th gen plane, whose prototype flew a few months back.. Dont you think so?



Ofcourse I admit jf-17 block II is a concept but criticizing PAF and saying that we'll never get jf-17 blk II in time for MMRCA is wrong.


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## foxbat

Jungibaaz said:


> Ofcourse I admit jf-17 block II is a concept but criticizing PAF and saying that we'll never get jf-17 blk II in time for MMRCA is wrong.



I agree.. I think Pakistan will have a JFT II (in what final form, i am not too sure) prototype, before the 1st MRCA takes off from an Indian base in Indian colors..


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## Jungibaaz

softtec said:


> Sir, U r high on emotion.
> 
> 1) To make u happy LCA mk1 will get IOC in dec and have 40 *already in order* to be delivered by 2014.
> 2)Remember US F16s were not even detect these Mig21 Bisons and couldn't even locked it.LOL..*Think about what will happen to ur F16s when Bison starts firing R77*. Jaguars with *latest upgrade *getting almost all the top notch *western avionics and jammers of MKI*.If its obsolete, then what u will say about ur beloved JFT.
> 3)Till now PAF didn't even place order of initial 36 J10B. I guess(If place order in time) u may get them by 2015.



1) by 2015 PAF will have 150 jf-17s
2)Yes, the bisons are at a higher level of stealth than the F-22. 
Just so you know in case your flying coffins are better than our F-16s we have some f-7pg which are just as good as your bisons.
3)We have made orders for 36 and they will arrive in 2014, after that these may be ordered in greater numbers.


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## kingdurgaking

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Durga ur welcome to count our F-7Ps and ROSE Mirages tht will stay till 2020.



Buddy i have included all 300 JF 17 block 3 and 150 J10 which is equals your squadron requirement by 2017.. Either case you need to remove here and add there.. your Squadron strength remains same...


----------



## Areesh

kingdurgaking said:


> Yes buddy... accepted.. thats why the performance of IAF improved in 1971 compared to 1965... where as PAF performance went down when we compared to 1965 .. all though IAF lost lot of Fighters in PAF preemptive strike as it was done in 1965... still IAF managed to fly more sorties



It's sorties might have increased but still PAF despite being outnumbered and technologically behind inflicted heavy damages to IAF which you also accepted. Also to mention thatl most of the AC's of IAF including Hawker Hunter, GNAT and Mig 21 were a generation ahead and more advanced than PAF's sabres.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Areesh dont forget Pakistan was under sanctions in both wars!

Some of our jets didnt even fly coz of lack of spares.... they were grounded!

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## softtec

applesauce said:


> i have a real hard time believing this



Ok..I meant F16 was not able to detect mig bison from r*equired distance*, so that they *could fire missiles on it*.Watch Red flag video.


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## softtec

Jungibaaz said:


> 1) by 2015 PAF will have 150 jf-17s
> 2)Yes, the bisons are at a higher level of stealth than the F-22.
> Just so you know in case your flying coffins are better than our F-16s we have some f-7pg which are just as good as your bisons.
> 3)We have made orders for 36 and they will arrive in 2014, after that these may be ordered in greater numbers.



1.Should stay in ur dream.By 2012 u will have only *less than 50*.Till now ur block-2 configuration or vendor not yet decided.U will be so lucky if u reach upto 100 by 2015.
2. I meant F16 was not able to detect mig bison from required distance, so that they could fire missiles on it.Watch Red flag video.


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## Storm Force

150 JF17 By 2015 " not a chance" 

more like half that number


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Jungibaaz said:


> We are behind in current inventory but rest assure, by 2015 we'll be pretty well equipped



inshaAllah


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## GreenStar

> 150 JF17 By 2015 " not a chance"
> 
> more like half that number



How do you know....I am curious are you part of the PAF to make such a bold statement, or is it based upon your assumptions. From what I have gathered from Senior Members on this Forum is that PAF already have a squadran which consist of 18 planes, and from certain reports another squadran will be set up this year. So it is quite possible for the PAF to achieve close to the 150 mark by 2015.


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## foxbat

GreenStar said:


> How do you know....I am curious are you part of the PAF to make such a bold statement, or is it based upon your assumptions. From what I have gathered from Senior Members on this Forum is that PAF already have a squadran which consist of 18 planes, and from certain reports another squadran will be set up this year. So it is quite possible for the PAF to achieve close to the 150 mark by 2015.



I will let you and SF figure it out, but needed a quick clarification. PAF inducted a squad of 14 aircrafts in Feb 10. How many have been added since then?


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## TaimiKhan

foxbat said:


> I will let you and SF figure it out, but needed a quick clarification. PAF inducted a squad of 14 aircrafts in Feb 10. How many have been added since then?



Well as per my last details, there were something like 25 JF-17s in total with more on the way. 

Hopefully by year end or in the first qtr of next year, the second Sqd would be raised. 

First Sqd qas raised with 14 planes, whose strength would be taken to 16-18.


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## foxbat

TaimiKhan said:


> Well as per my last details, there were something like 25 JF-17s in total with more on the way.
> 
> Hopefully by year end or in the first qtr of next year, the second Sqd would be raised.
> 
> First Sqd qas raised with 14 planes, whose strength would be taken to 16-18.



Thanks Taimi Bhai.. So approx 11 planes added in last 8 months or so? Also, wasnt there some talk of increasing the output capacity of the assembly line?


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## TaimiKhan

foxbat said:


> Thanks Taimi Bhai.. So approx 11 planes added in last 8 months or so? Also, wasnt there some talk of increasing the output capacity of the assembly line?



That is being done gradually, its a phased approach. 

For now, some parts are being manufactured at PAC and some coming from China and then being assembled at PAC. 

It will take a few years before the 100% production of the airframe and majority of the avionics start here. 

Currently 20-25% of the airframe parts are being produced at PAC, and by 2012 the target is 58% and subsequently as more orders come, the % will increase.

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## kingdurgaking

Areesh said:


> It's sorties might have increased but still PAF despite being outnumbered and technologically behind inflicted heavy damages to IAF which you also accepted. Also to mention thatl most of the AC's of IAF including Hawker Hunter, GNAT and Mig 21 were a generation ahead and more advanced than PAF's sabres.



As i said.. PAF was successful with preemptive strike.. which they wont be able to do in the coming ages... You can check with your senior members here... IAF did had a pretty good performance because of Migs in 1971 which i accept... Though it is not the case in 1965


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## gypgypgyp

TaimiKhan said:


> That is being done gradually, its a phased approach.
> 
> For now, some parts are being manufactured at PAC and some coming from China and then being assembled at PAC.
> 
> It will take a few years before the 100% production of the airframe and majority of the avionics start here.
> 
> Currently 20-25% of the airframe parts are being produced at PAC, and by 2012 the target is 58% and subsequently as more orders come, the % will increase.



PAF will assemble all JF-17 in PAF from now on? What is the full production rate? 24 per year?


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## TaimiKhan

gypgypgyp said:


> PAF will assemble all JF-17 in PAF from now on? What is the full production rate? 24 per year?



Yeah assembly of JF-17s has already started with some parts manufactured in Pakistan, rest coming from China. 

For now, it seems the rate would be 10-12 or may be 14 aircraft per year, plus in China also, fully aircraft production can be done too.


----------



## softtec

GreenStar said:


> How do you know....I am curious are you part of the PAF to make such a bold statement, or is it based upon your assumptions. From what I have gathered from Senior Members on this Forum is that PAF already have a squadran which consist of 18 planes, and from certain reports another squadran will be set up this year. *So it is quite possible for the PAF to achieve close to the 150 mark by 2015*.



Sir, I wish PAF would get 150 mark by 2015.But the reality is different.By 2012 u will have *approx 50*.Ur block-2 configuration and vendors not yet decided.Then whole range of integration and extensive testing required.Its 2011 starting almost. At any cost these things will not be ready before 2013.If its western vendor(suppose France), I m afraid it will take much more time.In any case *100 mark by 2015 is a tough call* for PAF.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

New indigenous avionics are already being tested in PAC!2012 At MAX is the time frame of the BLK-II..... CATIC AND PAC are both manufacturing JF-17s 26 ac per year is going to be the rate of production in PAC and not to forget CATIC is also manufacturing em.... do the math.


----------



## Stealth_fighter

what would be the main features of block 2?probably infrared search and track,bvr and air refueling capability?


----------



## deckingraj

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> New indigenous avionics are already being tested in PAC!2012 At MAX is the time frame of the BLK-II..... CATIC AND PAC are both manufacturing JF-17s *26 ac per year *is going to be the rate of production in PAC and not to forget CATIC is also manufacturing em.... do the math.



That would mean almost 2.16 plane in a month....A fighter plane being manufactured in less than 2 weeks...Don't you think it is extraordinary pace???


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## foxbat

deckingraj said:


> That would mean almost 2.16 plane in a month....A fighter plane being manufactured in less than 2 weeks...Don't you think it is extraordinary pace???



But HAL in India is churning out 22 Su 30s in an year. Isnt it? And almost 100% of the components are being manufactured locally.


----------



## SMC

deckingraj said:


> That would mean almost 2.16 plane in a month....A fighter plane being manufactured in less than 2 weeks...Don't you think it is extraordinary pace???



If PAC and CITAC are working simultaneously on it, what's the big deal?


----------



## Prisoner of war

Pakistan's best and the Worst possible answer is JF-17 thunder... Or It has to Improve its Economy and attitude if it has to get its hands On Some top notch gadgets like we enjoy in todays world


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## TaimiKhan

Prisoner of war said:


> Pakistan's best and the Worst possible answer is JF-17 thunder... Or It has to Improve its Economy and attitude if it has to get its hands On Some top notch gadgets like we enjoy in todays world



No its not, plz read the whole thread and then post.


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## Arsalan

the production capicity is being increased.
we have tree production lines at PAC, currently one is dediceted to JFT. the second was busy with Mirages and F-7PG and third one for regular refits and over hauls.
now with the JFT gradually growing in number and a fourth production line being set up, JFT will be done in two parallel production line.
after 2013~2014 we may even see a third line that is currently under mirages/F-7PG given to JFT with all the overhauls moved to one single line as the load and numbers of mirages and older F-7 will start to decrease.

150 mark is not a problem, the thing is that will be see upgrades for every subsequent block as planned. for block II, which might well be just one year away there are no real upgrades being made public as yet. based on my talk with some frineds at PAC it may only see mid air refueling probes as a development alongside. the KJ-10 is reported to be on board already..

i hope to see some real steps forward in block III with chines engine and AESA radars developing fast.
better engine might also yeild in more hard points that will be a minor structural change and will require testing..

regards!


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## Arsalan

for me if kept on the right track JFT will be more then a match for IAFs Mig 29, Su-30 by its Blk III.
for new MRCA tender, by the time IAF start procuring it, PAF will have got FC-20 and Blk 16 F-16. the older Blk-15 will also be done with MLU and star upgrades and will be a good match for IAF.

regards!


----------



## kashith

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> inshaAllah



yaar why do you guys take god's name in everything?
i mean doesnt it say somewhere that dont take god's name in vain?

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## Comet

arsalanaslam123 said:


> for me if kept on the right track JFT will be more then a match for IAFs Mig 29, Su-30 by its Blk III.
> for new MRCA tender, by the time IAF start procuring it, PAF will have got FC-20 and *Blk 16 *F-16. the older Blk-15 will also be done with MLU and star upgrades and will be a good match for IAF.
> 
> regards!



what blk 16?


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## Comet

kashith said:


> yaar why do you guys take god's name in everything?
> i mean doesnt it say somewhere that dont take god's name in vain?



Off topic.

See PM for its answer


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## Jungibaaz

kashith said:


> yaar why do you guys take god's name in everything?
> i mean doesnt it say somewhere that dont take god's name in vain?



Do you know what InshAllah means??? if you did, you would find that its not taking God's name in vein.


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## Jungibaaz

Prisoner of war said:


> Pakistan's best and the Worst possible answer is JF-17 thunder... Or It has to Improve its Economy and attitude if it has to get its hands On Some top notch gadgets like we enjoy in todays world



jf-17 would be a good option! it's a clean slate , it can be heavily upgraded! remember it's already superior to F-16 A/B


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## Dr sim

arsalanaslam123 said:


> for me if kept on the right track JFT will be more then a match for IAFs Mig 29, Su-30 by its Blk III.
> for new MRCA tender, by the time IAF start procuring it, PAF will have got FC-20 and Blk 16 F-16. the older Blk-15 will also be done with MLU and star upgrades and will be a good match for IAF.
> 
> regards!



I m glad u put a FOR ME in front of ur reply.

For starters a whole squadron will be bought off shelf and rest will be assembled later


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## SQ8

kashith said:


> yaar why do you guys take god's name in everything?
> i mean doesnt it say somewhere that dont take god's name in vain?



One thing I learned the hard way.
Inshallah for a Pakistani is used in the absolute wrong sense... when a Pakistani says inshallah he doesn't mean "if god wills it".. and Ill try my best as well.. 
He uses it when he means to say it'll happen if god wills it... I wont do a darn thing about it. ..
(nothing towards the person who posted Inshallah, just a general observation.. not related to the JF-17's acquisition.).

This thread has been literally seesawing for no reason.
The PAF has already decided its mainstay.. The MRCA competition was known to the PAF before the IAF even made it public. They have something called espionage and intelligence in use since the early days of war. 
The Air Staff requirement for the JF was made specifically to counter current(late 90's) and future threats the IAF would pose.. and is modified accordingly.
Usually no air force makes plans to counter one thing whose capabilities aren't known(XB-70->Mig-25-<F-15).
the Tit for Tat matching is usually not too beneficial for ANY country.
Look at this this way..
just because your ****** rich neighbor bought a ferrari 430 you dont have to sell your kidneys to get one to match him.. you can get almost the same performance by taking a EvoVIII, adding new headers, exhaust, NOS...tuning the suspension, adding bigger ceramic calipers and Slicks... still for 1/5th the cost of the 430.

This isnt the cold war where anything less than exact parity would mean a world ending scenario..and nuclear weapons were in the hands of some level headed people.. Not emotional people like Indians and Pakistani's.

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## kashith

Jungibaaz said:


> Do you know what InshAllah means??? if you did, you would find that its not taking God's name in vein.



hmm initially i didnt , but got the answer by some members.

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## Storm Force

PAF and GOP have only ordered 50 planes to date 8 prototypes and 42 mk1 thunders. China gave a $650m soft loan to help PAF buy these .. 

No other oderers have been made too date.

OR HAVE I MISSED this report of another order

I thought PAF was awaiting new radar & avionics and missles from France for mk2


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## deckingraj

foxbat said:


> But HAL in India is churning out 22 Su 30s in an year. Isnt it? And almost 100&#37; of the components are being manufactured locally.



Do you know how many are they(read PAC) churning out right now??? the production capacity cannot be increased to almost double in a whisker...it will take some time, no????

Don't want to derail the thread but aren't you assuming that HAL and PAC have similar production capability???



SMC said:


> If PAC and CITAC are working simultaneously on it, what's the big deal?


Yup, however is it in place right now??? In other words are they working on it simultaneously or are their such plans in near future??

Look guys achieving 150 by 2015 is not an impossible task but surely a difficult one...Secondly PAF don't want all 150 JF-17 in its current configuration, no??? In other words they first have to close on the french avionics deals/equivalent deal may be with china which has the potential to delay, no???...So i might not be as wrong as you guys think when i say i have some reservations about the numbers we are talking about here....

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## mjnaushad

Storm Force said:


> PAF and GOP have only ordered 50 planes to date 8 prototypes and 42 mk1 thunders. China gave a $650m soft loan to help PAF buy these ..
> 
> No other oderers have been made too date.
> 
> OR HAVE I MISSED this report of another order
> 
> I thought PAF was awaiting new radar & avionics and missles from France for mk2


650/50 =13 

Are you saying the price of one aircraft is 13 M...?? 

2ndly i already asked for a link, Nowhere its said that that loan is for the planes...That loan was for plane is assumption of Indian members.


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## Luftwaffe

*One thing I learned the hard way.
Inshallah for a Pakistani is used in the absolute wrong sense.*

For God sakes being a think tank why did you even bother to sit and type on InshAllah because it got mention by someone. Its a PAF's possible answer to MRCA thread not InshAllah thread so do not post you version of understanding of what Pakistanis mean by inshallah in a sense you are not the voice of 18 crore Pakistanis.

Back to thread topic.


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## foxbat

santro said:


> One thing I learned the hard way.
> Inshallah for a Pakistani is used in the absolute wrong sense... when a Pakistani says inshallah he doesn't mean "if god wills it".. and Ill try my best as well..
> He uses it when he means to say it'll happen if god wills it... I wont do a darn thing about it. ..
> (nothing towards the person who posted Inshallah, just a general observation.. not related to the JF-17's acquisition.).



Too good.. The only thing is that this quality is present across the subcontinent irrespective of religion, caste and creed. In some cases, Inshalla gets replaced by Bagwan kare, but the sentiment stays

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## foxbat

deckingraj said:


> Do you know how many are they(read PAC) churning out right now??? the production capacity cannot be increased to almost double in a whisker...it will take some time, no????
> 
> Don't want to derail the thread but aren't you assuming that HAL and PAC have similar production capability???



Fair point, but thats what is also expected. The capacity PAC has today is about 12-15 planes an year, which may go up to 20-22 in next 2 years or so. Or atleast thats what I got from the posts in this thread


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## deckingraj

foxbat said:


> Fair point, but thats what is also expected. The capacity PAC has today is about 12-15 planes an year, which may go up to 20-22 in next 2 years or so. Or atleast thats what I got from the posts in this thread



Yes and that is exactly my point...it will take time to increase the production capacity to 20-22....So 150 by 2015 and that too a significant number of JF-17 block II is not as easy task as people are claiming here....


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## deckingraj

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the production capicity is being increased.
> we have tree production lines at PAC, currently one is dediceted to JFT. the second was busy with Mirages and F-7PG and third one for regular refits and over hauls.
> now with the JFT gradually growing in number and a fourth production line being set up, JFT will be done in two parallel production line.
> after 2013~2014 we may even see a third line that is currently under mirages/F-7PG given to JFT with all the overhauls moved to one single line as the load and numbers of mirages and older F-7 will start to decrease.



Some good points but sir please keep in mind if adding production lines is so easy then HAL would have added more lines just to churn out more and more MKI's especially when IAF is operating below her santioned squadron force, no??? A country whose economy is growing at about 9&#37; and projected to grow at same pace for decades can certainly find out money for creating "n" number of production lines, no???However that is not the case...The increase is there but is gradual....Please note that there are host of other complexities that are involved and talking about all of them is not feasible here...However on a very high level there is a very sensitive relation between demand and supply which needs to be very carefully examined otherwise it leads to lot of wastage, something that poor south asian countries cannot afford especially Pakistan with economy in such a bad shape....Just to give you a hint, one has to put in lot of money to set up another production line and one has to ensure they have enough orders in hand to keep this additional production line working for considerable amount of time(years) to cover up for the amount invested...My request please ponder on those lines as well.....

It is almost end of 2010. PAC have another 5 years to completed the order(though i am not sure if order has even been put). As of now PAC is producing around 10-12 fighters a year....It will take a couple of years to incresae the capacity to 20-22...So if we do some simple maths with being a little optimistic

12 * 2 = 24
22 * 3 = 66

that brings the total to 90. So starting from now with optimistic targets by 2015 PAC can produce an additional 90 JF17's....which makes them 60 short of the number we are talking about...Now add the numbers that you already have and see how much work needs to be done....Please note that here we are assuming that eveything related to avionics package for block II will go smooth...

Now i would appreciate if you help point out flaws in my analysis and suggest how 150 is achievable and that too with ease!!!....

So let me repeat again what i have said on previous posts...reaching a number of 150 by 2015 is not as easy as members are making it to be...Is it not at all feasible, heck no way, is it very difficult, YES absolutely...



> 150 mark is not a problem, the thing is that will be see upgrades for every subsequent block as planned. for block II, which might well be just one year away there are no real upgrades being made public as yet. based on my talk with some frineds at PAC it may only see mid air refueling probes as a development alongside. the KJ-10 is reported to be on board already..


Good luck with that...Though avionics package has not been closed yet i believe concrete news will come out soon...but keep in ming closing on avionics package is one thing but churning out fighters with the package is another dimension...Anyways my best wishes on that....




> i hope to see some real steps forward in block III with chines engine and AESA radars developing fast.
> better engine might also yeild in more hard points that will be a minor structural change and will require testing..regards!


I would say let's get the block II running first....AESA radar on a fighter is a very complex engineering and apart from Americans no one has cracked it yet to a level that one can feel comfortable about it....Here you are talking about structural changes as well...No matter all this is achievable but i am sure you will agree all of these are time consuming as well as unpredictable jobs


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## foxbat

deckingraj said:


> Yes and that is exactly my point...it will take time to increase the production capacity to 20-22....So 150 by 2015 and that too a significant number of JF-17 block II is not as easy task as people are claiming here....



Not possible unless China decides to dedicate some of its capacity towards assembling the planes as well.


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## Jungibaaz

foxbat said:


> Not possible unless China decides to dedicate some of its capacity towards assembling the planes as well.



Production for Block I started in 2007, block II is expected before 2015!
8 years is long enough to make Block II.


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## Jungibaaz

Storm Force said:


> PAF and GOP have only ordered 50 planes to date 8 prototypes and 42 mk1 thunders. *China gave a $650m soft loan to help PAF buy these ..
> *
> No other oderers have been made too date.
> 
> OR HAVE I MISSED this report of another order
> 
> I thought PAF was awaiting new radar & avionics and missles from France for mk2



Please provide a god damn link before you go trolling about so called soft loans. 

I'm surprised you've lasted this long on this forum.


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## deckingraj

Jungibaaz said:


> Production for Block I started in 2007, block II is expected before 2015!
> 8 years is long enough to make Block II.


No doubt about it...However we are talking about numbers here....I would advice to please skim through couple of pages and then share your thoughts...

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------




foxbat said:


> Not possible unless China decides to dedicate some of its capacity towards assembling the planes as well.



I agree...


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## Jungibaaz

deckingraj said:


> No doubt about it...However we are talking about numbers here....I would advice to please skim through couple of pages and then share your thoughts...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> I agree...



As of now only 1 factory in Pakistan produces jf-17s. Another factory, previously used for Mirages will be used to make jf-17s, nearly doubling the output, numbers should not be a problem.


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## deckingraj

Jungibaaz said:


> As of now only 1 factory in Pakistan produces jf-17s. Another factory, previously used for Mirages will be used to make jf-17s, nearly doubling the output, numbers should not be a problem.



Good point...May be you are right but can you throw some details on when this factory will shift to producing JF-17(or has that already been done) and also what is the current order that PAF has put on right now??? Based on my analysis and looking at the current average of churning out 10-12 JF-17 a year it is not believable(atleast from an outsider POV) that production will jump suddenly to 20-22....So i would appreciate if you cna share more details....


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## Jungibaaz

deckingraj said:


> Good point...May be you are right but can you throw some details on when this factory will shift to producing JF-17(or has that already been done) and also what is the current order that PAF has put on right now??? Based on my analysis and looking at the current average of churning out 10-12 JF-17 a year it is not believable(atleast from an outsider POV) that production will jump suddenly to 20-22....So i would appreciate if you cna share more details....


Farnborough 2010 - Pakistan increases autonomy in production of JF-17 Thunder aircraft

PAF Inducts First Squadron of JF-17 Thunder Jet

Pakistan starts mass production of JF-17 fighters | India Defence

Pakistan starts mass production of JF-17 fighters - national TV | World | RIA Novosti


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## foxbat

Jungibaaz said:


> Farnborough 2010 - Pakistan increases autonomy in production of JF-17 Thunder aircraft
> 
> PAF Inducts First Squadron of JF-17 Thunder Jet
> 
> Pakistan starts mass production of JF-17 fighters | India Defence
> 
> Pakistan starts mass production of JF-17 fighters - national TV | World | RIA Novosti



But the current production capacity that Taimikhan also confirmed is about 10-12 planes an year. Even if doubled tomorrow, still reaching 150 planes iin next 5 years is a tough ask. And that is the discussion


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## TaimiKhan

foxbat said:


> But the current production capacity that Taimikhan also confirmed is about 10-12 planes an year. Even if doubled tomorrow, still reaching 150 planes iin next 5 years is a tough ask. And that is the discussion



China has a fully operational production line too. 

Ours are not yet at full production capacity. By 2012 58% of the airframe would be produced in Pakistan, and after 2012 the percentage will increase further. 

So if orders are there and can't be fulfilled by one production line, then another one can be utilized in China, plus the production plants have been made big enough to have multiple production lines. As time passes by, we are gonna have more skilled and trained labor, thus we can easily produce more if required.


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## foxbat

TaimiKhan said:


> China has a fully operational production line too.
> 
> Ours are not yet at full production capacity. By 2012 58% of the airframe would be produced in Pakistan, and after 2012 the percentage will increase further.
> 
> *So if orders are there and can't be fulfilled by one production line, then another one can be utilized in China, *plus the production plants have been made big enough to have multiple production lines. As time passes by, we are gonna have more skilled and trained labor, thus we can easily produce more if required.



That exactly was my point if you go back a few posts. Given the current capacity of 10-12 per year and the time it takes to ramp up this capacity, to hit 150 planes by 2015, China will need to pitch in with some production lines for assembly as well..


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## deckingraj

Jungibaaz said:


> Farnborough 2010 - Pakistan increases autonomy in production of JF-17 Thunder aircraft
> 
> PAF Inducts First Squadron of JF-17 Thunder Jet
> 
> Pakistan starts mass production of JF-17 fighters | India Defence
> 
> Pakistan starts mass production of JF-17 fighters - national TV | World | RIA Novosti



that is why i requested you to skim through couple of pages...No one is denying PAK cannot build these birds...We are just debating the time frame....


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## deckingraj

TaimiKhan said:


> China has a fully operational production line too.
> 
> Ours are not yet at full production capacity. By 2012 58&#37; of the airframe would be produced in Pakistan, and after 2012 the percentage will increase further.
> 
> So if orders are there and can't be fulfilled by one production line, then another one can be utilized in China, plus the production plants have been made big enough to have multiple production lines. As time passes by, we are gonna have more skilled and trained labor, thus we can easily produce more if required.



Thanks Taimi..I think we all are in agreement with what you said...If orders are there then it is highly probable that China will have to chip in...Now that brings me to second question...Is it correct(it looks like you also believe it) that PAF still have to put in orders for 150 JF-17 or whatever the number is??? If so then is the correct configuration for Block II(read avionics deal) the reason for not putting in the order or there are some funds issue as well???


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## SBD-3

deckingraj said:


> Thanks Taimi..I think we all are in agreement with what you said...If orders are there then it is highly probable that China will have to chip in...Now that brings me to second question...Is it correct(it looks like you also believe it) that PAF still have to put in orders for 150 JF-17 or whatever the number is??? If so then is the correct configuration for Block II(read avionics deal) the reason for not putting in the order or there are some funds issue as well???


AFAIK, after the first batch of 48 which will be co produced from both production lines. Yet thereafter PAC production lines will be dedicated for PAF while CAC production line will cater exports order (if they arrive till then). We heard that PAC is setting up new production line for speeding up JFT. IMHO, F-6 Rebuild factory is available for immediate while Mirage Rebuild infrastructure will be available ASA mirages are decomissioned

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## TaimiKhan

deckingraj said:


> Thanks Taimi..I think we all are in agreement with what you said...If orders are there then it is highly probable that China will have to chip in...Now that brings me to second question...Is it correct(it looks like you also believe it) that PAF still have to put in orders for 150 JF-17 or whatever the number is??? If so then is the correct configuration for Block II(read avionics deal) the reason for not putting in the order or there are some funds issue as well???



Both problems are being faced. Funds, though its not that much of a big deal, if the economy jump starts again, then whatever issue we have in this regard, that will also go away. 

But major reason is the avionics issue, as the 2nd batch avionics are still being negotiated and looked into. Hopefully by next year, this issue would also be solved, as Chinese are also testing something, while we have the European options with us too. By 2011-12 picture would be clear. Engine and some minor airframe changes may also be looked into.

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## huzihaidao12

Other countries can also share part of the production, if Egypt to buy production line, and then they can produce their own.

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## isi admirer

praveen007 said:


> ^^^ our 5th gen plane is already finaled and contract had been sign. unlike some imeginary block-2 of some plane.


pleas can u tell me when the contract of arjun was signed and it take how many years after that and still hadnt any orders and what about tejas just fantsies and i am seeing your 5th gen plane also in that list.....

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## Zarvan

Pakistan should answer with 250 JF-17 and 150 J-10 B but it can get even better if they can get European Plane Rafale or Gripen


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## Paan Singh

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should answer with 250 JF-17 and 150 J-10 B but it can get even better if they can get European Plane Rafale or Gripen



gripen have american engine and other stuff too
and rafale is hard to purchase


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## Zarvan

Prism said:


> gripen have american engine and other stuff too
> and rafale is hard to purchase


Sir Rafale was offered to Pakistan long time ago and it was offered with TOT


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## Paan Singh

Zarvan said:


> Sir Rafale was offered to Pakistan long time ago and it was offered with TOT



any official link,i searched but just got an link of magazine...
anyway,if french gets the mmrca then not possible in future


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## Dazzler

It has been offered to many many countries in a span of 10 years. ACM Tanveer Mehmood Ahmed showed interest and a PAF delegation test flew it. Impressive plane as it is, comes with a hefty price since we couldn't afford it. TOT arrangement was not offered.

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## muse

I'm confused by this supposed urgency to respond to the MRCA deal -- Why does Pakistan need to "respond" or "counter" this, especialy why is this Pakistani response required on a urgent basis? Raphal, Euro-Fighter, Grippen - WHY, exactly are these the need of the hour - The Indians planning an imminent invasion?

It's also interesting that the response requires the purchase of a Western system - you might as well burn any resources you do have.

Why not focus on long term solutions that negate the very possibility of sanctions and pressure, while building industrial capacity and steady long term jobs - is there any kind of security more desirable than economic security?

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## Zarvan

muse said:


> I'm confused by this supposed urgency to respond to the MRCA deal -- Why does Pakistan need to "respond" or "counter" this, especialy why is this Pakistani response required on a urgent basis? Raphal, Euro-Fighter, Grippen - WHY, exactly are these the need of the hour - The Indians planning an imminent invasion?
> 
> It's also interesting that the response requires the purchase of a Western system - you might as well burn any resources you do have.
> 
> Why not focus on long term solutions that negate the very possibility of sanctions and pressure, while building industrial capacity and steady long term jobs - is there any kind of security more desirable than economic security?


Sir India can never be trusted so we have to always be prepared for their so therefore we should have a plane which is equal to MRCA


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## Paan Singh

Zarvan said:


> Sir India can never be trusted so we have to always be prepared for their so therefore we should have a plane which is equal to MRCA



then go for f-22


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## Mav3rick

Zarvan said:


> Sir India can never be trusted so we have to always be prepared for their so therefore we should have a plane which is equal to MRCA



By the time IAF actually gets their hands on MMRCA, we would have ample experience on J-10's and JF-17's BL-II. Besides we have a defensive military doctrine so we expect most of the fighting around our own border where our AWACS and our SAM sites will come in to play as well to neutralize the numerical superiority of IAF.

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## Paan Singh

Mav3rick said:


> By the time IAF actually gets their hands on MMRCA, we would have ample experience on J-10's and JF-17's BL-II. Besides we have a defensive military doctrine so we expect most of the fighting around our own border where our AWACS and our SAM sites will come in to play as well to neutralize the numerical superiority of IAF.



sorry sir ji,we will have first squad of rafale or hornets till the end of 2014 or in starting of 2015 with 200+ mki's


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## Black Widow

Mav3rick said:


> By the time IAF actually gets their hands on MMRCA, we would have ample experience on J-10's and JF-17's BL-II. Besides we have a defensive military doctrine so we expect most of the fighting around our own border where our AWACS and our SAM sites will come in to play as well to neutralize the numerical superiority of IAF.



MMRCA first squad will be in India by 2014. PAF has not yet decided for J10. It will take 2 years to have 1squad of J10. If PAF sign J10 deal by 2012, you can get 18 J10 by 2014.


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## Jerico

Mav3rick said:


> By the time IAF actually gets their hands on MMRCA, we would have ample experience on J-10's and JF-17's BL-II. Besides we have a defensive military doctrine so we expect most of the fighting around our own border where our AWACS and our SAM sites will come in to play as well to neutralize the numerical superiority of IAF.



Are you talking about the military doctrine where one side is the Pakistan army and the other side is some ill equipped die hard radical people involved in some gorilla warfare tactics. Are you thinking that AWACS and SAMs are being used against such people. Is it true..?And can you explain how its being used...?
Instead use your funds for the development of your country than cry war against India. India is least bothered concerning Pakistan as long as some non state actors inflict harm to it. 
There is a saying in Urdu but now altered by me" Khud ko kar buland itna ki India tuj se kud pooche bata dono trade kare ya nahi"

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## Zarvan

Prism said:


> sorry sir ji,we will have first squad of rafale or hornets till the end of 2014 or in starting of 2015 with 200+ mki's


Pakistan will have around 250 to 300 JF-17 and 150 above J-10 B too INSHALLAH also if we get some European plane it will be great


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## karan.1970

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan will have around 250 to 300 JF-17 and 150 above J-10 B too INSHALLAH also if we get some European plane it will be great



300 JF 17 and 150 J10 by 2014 ?


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## Paan Singh

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan will have around 250 to 300 JF-17 and 150 above J-10 B too INSHALLAH also if we get some European plane it will be great



i am doubtful even u arrange 150 jf-17 till 2015 or 30-40 j-10 a or b..till 2015......


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## Invincible INDIAN

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan will have around 250 to 300 JF-17 and 150 above J-10 B too INSHALLAH also if we get some European plane it will be great



I think last ZERO's are extra against the figures of JF-17 and J-10..... Isn't it?????? I have a doubt only..


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## ziaulislam

both 65 and 71 our planes were much inferior ...
today the jf-17 can match any indian plane on its home ground..
j-1/f-16 will give paf strike capability 
only point is what will be paf response to the upcoming PakFA

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## Paan Singh

ziaulislam said:


> both 65 and 71 our planes were much inferior ...
> today the jf-17 can match any indian plane on its home ground..
> j-1/f-16 will give paf strike capability
> only point is what will be paf response to the upcoming PakFA



very good


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## mymeaningislion

i think after reading your post and analyzing the mental status........yes you look funny..... first we never said that jf17 is superior to MKI. and remember MKI is not invisible also....and j 10 is in service and is serially produced while pak fa is under prototyping phase ( keep in mind that americans are still struggling hard for making the 5 gen fighter as a norm) so it gives a cushion of 5 to 7 years.....and if you had any clue how air warfare is fought then you wouldn't acted like a child........ FOR your brain storming i will only tell you the number of major factors in this subject..........altitude, speed of fighters , speed and direction of air , Rcs of fighters , speed and movement of misslie , Radar frequencies and its power and its ablility to judge and separate false signals with original ones, ability to concentrate its wavelength to a particular point and the angle not only horizontal but also in vertical direction and more important mode of the radar in which it is being operated..( jf 17 has more than 12 modes), flight path of fighters.........and the list goes on and on so with so many diversified factors one can say that with correct tactics and mission awareness and environmental analysis or SWOT analysis , even Mig 21 become a threat to MKi so next time i hope that my indian friends will speak with logic instead of........ so think before you say...takecare regards Azhar

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## Zarvan

mymeaningislion said:


> i think after reading your post and analyzing the mental status........yes you look funny..... first we never said that jf17 is superior to MKI. and remember MKI is not invisible also....and j 10 is in service and is serially produced while pak fa is under prototyping phase ( keep in mind that americans are still struggling hard for making the 5 gen fighter as a norm) so it gives a cushion of 5 to 7 years.....and if you had any clue how air warfare is fought then you wouldn't acted like a child........ FOR your brain storming i will only tell you the number of major factors in this subject..........altitude, speed of fighters , speed and direction of air , Rcs of fighters , speed and movement of misslie , Radar frequencies and its power and its ablility to judge and separate false signals with original ones, ability to concentrate its wavelength to a particular point and the angle not only horizontal but also in vertical direction and more important mode of the radar in which it is being operated..( jf 17 has more than 12 modes), flight path of fighters.........and the list goes on and on so with so many diversified factors one can say that with correct tactics and mission awareness and environmental analysis or SWOT analysis , even Mig 21 become a threat to MKi so next time i hope that my indian friends will speak with logic instead of........ so think before you say...takecare regards Azhar


JF-17 Block 2 is far more advanced than we initially expected and also if it gets equipped with 5 Generation Air to Air Missiles it will be a force to reckon and plus 150 J-10 B and this plane is equal to Sukhoi 30 and also in War time they will never be able to use all of their planes because of China but we can because we don't have threats from China and Iran and also Afghanistan if america is not their and also we have 60 above F-16 and the older ones are getting upgraded so very soon we will be very lethal force to fight


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## Paan Singh

Zarvan said:


> JF-17 Block 2 is far more advanced than we initially expected and also if it gets equipped with 5 Generation Air to Air Missiles it will be a force to reckon and plus 150 J-10 B and this plane is equal to Sukhoi 30 and also in War time they will never be able to use all of their planes because of China but we can because we don't have threats from China and Iran and also Afghanistan if america is not their and also we have 60 above F-16 and the older ones are getting upgraded so very soon we will be very lethal force to fight



who says america wont be there???i think they are planning to leave 4-5 bases in afganistan.
and whole mmrca is for china only,all other stuff is enough to take care of you.

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## Zarvan

Prism said:


> who says america wont be there???i think they are planning to leave 4-5 bases in afganistan.
> and whole mmrca is for china only,all other stuff is enough to take care of you.


Sir future will tell America will have to run away they can't afford to stay and loose more soldiers and with JF-17 J-10 b and F-16 PAF is ready to take on almost all Air Forces of the world except few where number game and technology differs a lot other wise IAF will not be a much of a danger and you are recruiting 89000 new troops to counter China this makes clear that your more than million army almost all of it is placed against us that is why you are recruiting new soldiers


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## SBD-3

karan.1970 said:


> 300 JF 17 and 150 J10 by 2014 ?


Not necessarily 2014 but eventually.......But one thing is for sure....PAF will try to get them as soon as possible.....PAC's production will pick up as the additional infrasturcture being installed becomes operational alongwith some more additional space becomes available as the space is vacated by Mirage Rebuild and KRAF (which i think will be moved to Jacobabad for dedication Eelectronic facility).....

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## DARKY

hasnain0099 said:


> Not necessarily 2014 but *eventually*.......But one thing is for sure....PAF will try to get them as soon as possible.....PAC's production will pick up as the additional infrasturcture being installed becomes operational alongwith some more additional space becomes available as the space is vacated by Mirage Rebuild and KRAF (which i think will be moved to Jacobabad for dedication Eelectronic facility).....


]

Are you sure ??... eventually when that time comes even Afghanistan and Iran would be fielding 5th Gen. Fighter planes in their respective air forces.... if want to fantasize-- fantasize big...


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## Paan Singh

Zarvan said:


> Sir future will tell America will have to run away they can't afford to stay and loose more soldiers and with JF-17 J-10 b and F-16 PAF is ready to take on almost all Air Forces of the world except few where number game and technology differs a lot other wise IAF will not be a much of a danger and you are recruiting 89000 new troops to counter China this makes clear that your more than million army almost all of it is placed against us that is why you are recruiting new soldiers



of course future is which i am telling you,you can wait only till 2014.
and for rest of post,i dont think india is not going to recruit new soldiers..they will be trained or will be shifted.
in future,india will have a less but an lethal army with independent commands.


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## SBD-3

DARKY said:


> ]
> 
> Are you sure ??... eventually when that time comes even Afghanistan and Iran would be fielding 5th Gen. Fighter planes in their respective air forces.... if want to fantasize-- fantasize big...


Eventually doesnt mean 2020-2025.....just to clarify..........

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## AwA.

DARKY said:


> ]
> 
> Are you sure ??... eventually when that time comes even Afghanistan and Iran would be fielding 5th Gen. Fighter planes in their respective air forces.... if want to fantasize-- fantasize big...



Do I need to remind you who has a track record of delayed Projects?


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## DARKY

hasnain0099 said:


> Eventually doesnt mean 2020-2025.....just to clarify..........



250-300 JF-17 and 150 J-10 is no joke and it would take more than a decade for Pakistan to gain the number... buying a plane is not like buying a candy from the shop next door... didn't even say any thing about the budgetary requirements.



AwA. said:


> Do I need to remind you who has a track record of delayed Projects?



Does that reminder gets you 250-300 JF-17 and 150 J-10s in 5 years then yes go ahead....


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## Storm Force

Zarvan 

re your post of 250 Thunders & 150 FC20 

SOME SIMPLE MATHS...


Its taken 2 years to deliver 33 JFT Thunders .... How many years will it take to deliver 250 ???

First JFT arrived 2009 

FC20 PAF has only ordered 36 ( where you get 150) from First delivery is 2014 

Whose paying $6 billion to buy 150 FC20 ... My point being whislt you could buy 50 or 100 thunders at $15m each this is your budget.... ie total deal $1-1.5 billion THERE IS NO WAY you can spens $5-6 billion on 150 FC20 

$6 BILLION TO PAF is like $36 billion to india ( can you see IAF spending $36 billion on one combat plane) 

Your nos are fine but prcatically its impossible for a nation like pakistan to get china to provide that level of massive financial support...

AT BEST I SEE

150 Thunders in 3 batches 
50 until 2012 mk1 
50 mk2 2012-2015 
50 more post 2015-2018 

Even 36-40 FC20 will cost $1.5 billion additional (on top of jft thats a lot for GOP) TO FIND even on soft loans 

PAKISTAN current and future military spending power is like a FRACTION of india ie India will outspend by 6 or 7 to 1 today and near 10-1 in the near future.. 

THE RESOURCE DIFFERENCE IS IMMENSE


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## Storm Force

People need to appreciate that military spending is closely linked to GDP and resources.. THE 2 GO HAND IN HAND.

Why is USA & CHINA the top spenders = answer they both have massive GDP 

This will never change the STRONGEST nations have the biggest GDP = BIGGEST military budgets and best order books for equipment ...


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## SBD-3

DARKY said:


> 250-300 JF-17 and 150 J-10 is no joke and it would take more than a decade for Pakistan to gain the number... buying a plane is not like buying a candy from the shop next door... didn't even say any thing about the budgetary requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> Does that reminder gets you 250-300 JF-17 and 150 J-10s in 5 years then yes go ahead....


There is no official word on how many J-10s will serve in PAF....150 is estimated requirements. I agree that buying planes is not like buying candies, but PAF's wont be like to have anything like MMRCA tender. Its induction will be much quicker.Moreover, Unofficial induction date cited is mid 2013 (if everything remains on track) .If this does happen, then PAF will again have an early start in its induction vis a vis IAF. So in short, agree with your statement that building fleet not gonna happen overnight but rest assure PAF wont like to stuck with LCA and MMRCA type inductions either.

---------- Post added at 03:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:59 AM ----------




Storm Force said:


> People need to appreciate that military spending is closely linked to GDP and resources.. THE 2 GO HAND IN HAND.
> 
> Why is USA & CHINA the top spenders = answer they both have massive GDP
> 
> This will never change the STRONGEST nations have the biggest GDP = BIGGEST military budgets and best order books for equipment ...


The is a difference between spending massively and spending efficiently........And Pakistan military is not merely dependent upon budget btw...they have their own commercial ventures to create funds.

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## raavan

hasnain0099 said:


> There is no official word on how many J-10s will serve in PAF....150 is estimated requirements. I agree that buying planes is not like buying candies, but PAF's wont be like to have anything like MMRCA tender. Its induction will be much quicker.Moreover, Unofficial induction date cited is mid 2013 (if everything remains on track) .If this does happen, then PAF will again have an early start in its induction vis a vis IAF. So in short, agree with your statement that building fleet not gonna happen overnight but rest assure PAF wont like to stuck with LCA and MMRCA type inductions either.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:59 AM ----------
> 
> 
> *The is a difference between spending massively and spending efficiently........*And Pakistan military is not merely dependent upon budget btw...they have their own commercial ventures to create funds.



Who told you that countries which are spending more money are not spending efficiently.... failed argument


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## Zarvan

Storm Force said:


> Zarvan
> 
> re your post of 250 Thunders & 150 FC20
> 
> SOME SIMPLE MATHS...
> 
> 
> Its taken 2 years to deliver 33 JFT Thunders .... How many years will it take to deliver 250 ???
> 
> First JFT arrived 2009
> 
> FC20 PAF has only ordered 36 ( where you get 150) from First delivery is 2014
> 
> Whose paying $6 billion to buy 150 FC20 ... My point being whislt you could buy 50 or 100 thunders at $15m each this is your budget.... ie total deal $1-1.5 billion THERE IS NO WAY you can spens $5-6 billion on 150 FC20
> 
> $6 BILLION TO PAF is like $36 billion to india ( can you see IAF spending $36 billion on one combat plane)
> 
> Your nos are fine but prcatically its impossible for a nation like pakistan to get china to provide that level of massive financial support...
> 
> AT BEST I SEE
> 
> 150 Thunders in 3 batches
> 50 until 2012 mk1
> 50 mk2 2012-2015
> 50 more post 2015-2018
> 
> Even 36-40 FC20 will cost $1.5 billion additional (on top of jft thats a lot for GOP) TO FIND even on soft loans
> 
> PAKISTAN current and future military spending power is like a FRACTION of india ie India will outspend by 6 or 7 to 1 today and near 10-1 in the near future..
> 
> THE RESOURCE DIFFERENCE IS IMMENSE


Sir Pakistan and China are increasing their production capacity to a great extent secondly to get 150 J-10B we can talk to China because they don't need that plane in that number on very urgent bases but we need it and also Pakistan and China if jointly produce JF-17 we can achieve that number at really fast speed


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think we all know 2011 , 90 JF17 Thunder already announced 40 plus 50 confirmed

40 Thunder 2012
40 Thunder 2013
40 Thunder 2014
40 Thudner 2015 

As for J10B 36 plus OPTIONS ... yes we do have OPTION !!! for 150

Ask yourself have we ever bought something from China and not ordered MORE ... I mean really 

REALLY ... ask yourself 

F7 , Al Khalids , Kalid 2 , K2 , Thunders ...starts with small number and then the real meal 

Appitizer then the full course meal

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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think we all know 2011 , 90 JF17 Thunder already announced 40 plus 50 confirmed
> 
> 40 Thunder 2012
> 40 Thunder 2013
> 40 Thunder 2014
> 40 Thudner 2015
> 
> As for J10B 36 plus OPTIONS ... yes we do have OPTION !!! for 150
> 
> Ask yourself have we ever bought something from China and not ordered MORE ... I mean really
> 
> REALLY ... ask yourself
> 
> F7 , Al Khalids , Kalid 2 , K2 , Thunders ...starts with small number and then the real meal
> 
> Appitizer then the full course meal


We should not have option we should get 150 J-10 B by 2018 and also 200 JF-17 Block 2 by 2018 and also all F-16 upgrded


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## Vimana

Zarvan said:


> We should not have option we should get 150 J-10 B by 2018 and also 200 JF-17 Block 2 by 2018 and also all F-16 upgrded





Never going to happen that is just a dream if you think those numbers will be met by 2018


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## Zarvan

Vimana said:


> Never going to happen that is just a dream if you think those numbers will be met by 2018


We always dream those things which world thinks are impossible but than we achieve it


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## Vimana

Zarvan said:


> We always dream those things which world thinks are impossible but than we achieve it





Not with the state of Pakistan's economy you won't it will remain just a pipe dream


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## Paan Singh

Zarvan said:


> We always dream those things which world thinks are impossible but than we achieve it


 
r u sure???


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## Mav3rick

Prism said:


> sorry sir ji,we will have first squad of rafale or hornets till the end of 2014 or in starting of 2015 with 200+ mki's


 
What are you sorry about? and why give me dates, my statement remains valid whether you get MMRCA in 2014 or 2030.


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## marcos98

Zarvan said:


> We should not have option we should get 150 J-10 B by 2018 and also 200 JF-17 Block 2 by 2018 and also all F-16 upgrded


So convenient for you to say get this and get that. Having no idea of basic economics and manufacturing field.
The 36 J-10 comes in from 2014 at the earliest. 
How is PAF going to sustain these numbers you state economically .

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## SpArK

THE FUTURE.




























More than enough.

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## Mav3rick

Black Widow said:


> MMRCA first squad will be in India by 2014. PAF has not yet decided for J10. It will take 2 years to have 1squad of J10. If PAF sign J10 deal by 2012, you can get 18 J10 by 2014.


 
PAF decided on J-10 quite a while back, I wouldn't really be surprised if we already have a squadron or 2 and it's just not announced, due to some tactical reason. In any case at the rate the Chinese are building J-10's, we would have atleast 2 squadrons by 2014/15 even if we order them in 2013, that is if we do not already have some 

By the way even India hasn't decided on MMRCA yet so how come 2014 gets so definite as delivery date?

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## Mav3rick

Jerico said:


> Are you talking about the military doctrine where one side is the Pakistan army and the other side is some ill equipped die hard radical people involved in some gorilla warfare tactics. Are you thinking that AWACS and SAMs are being used against such people. Is it true..?And can you explain how its being used...?
> Instead use your funds for the development of your country than cry war against India. India is least bothered concerning Pakistan as long as some non state actors inflict harm to it.
> There is a saying in Urdu but now altered by me" Khud ko kar buland itna ki India tuj se kud pooche bata dono trade kare ya nahi"


 
I share the same view as you when it comes to development, unfortunately most of my country's fund is being used up in corruption and bad governance. But your understanding is pathetic when you ask me if SAM sites are being used against militants.

By the way, India is least bothered concerning Pakistan? To be honest I hope, wish and pray that becomes the case but hard hitting fact is exactly the opposite. Most of your external policies are Pakistan specific, you harm us at every point possible even when you have nothing to gain politically or otherwise. But that's not the point of this thread so lets stay on the topic shall we?

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## marcos98

Mav3rick said:


> PAF decided on J-10 quite a while back, *I wouldn't really be surprised if we already have a squadron or 2 and it's just not announced, due to some tactical reason. *In any case at the rate the Chinese are building J-10's, we would have atleast 2 squadrons by 2014/15 even if we order them in 2013, that is if we do not already have some
> 
> By the way even India hasn't decided on MMRCA yet so how come 2014 gets so definite as delivery date?




Using the same old secrecy card. How on earth can a thing that can fly kept hidden.
Smell the coffee and stop being delusional.

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## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> ]
> 
> Are you sure ??... eventually when that time comes even Afghanistan and Iran would be fielding 5th Gen. Fighter planes in their respective air forces.... if want to fantasize-- fantasize big...


 
Well, unlike you, we have an advantage that we are good friends with almost all our neighbours. We will eventually build up great relations with even Afghanistan despite your ill intentions which will be thwarted the moment your daddy leaves Afghanistan. So basically we focus only on India as far as our defensive strength is concerned. If that means that India would still be flying 4th and 4.5th gen planes by the time Iran an Afghanistan fly 5th gen planes then we, too, shall fly planes from 4th and 4.5th gen to counter IAF.

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## Mav3rick

marcos98 said:


> Using the same old secrecy card. How on earth can a thing that can fly kept hidden.
> Smell the coffee and stop being delusional.



Not using any card buddy, read and understand the post, that was meant as my personal assumption and was stated as such.

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## Zarvan

marcos98 said:


> Using the same old secrecy card. How on earth can a thing that can fly kept hidden.
> Smell the coffee and stop being delusional.


Sir for your information J-10B was developed according to needs of PAF so we al ready decided about it and got it developed to now we have to decide when to get first batch


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## SBD-3

raavan said:


> Who told you that countries which are spending more money are not spending efficiently.... failed argument


Who is notorious for raising costs.........I think it should give you a fair hint


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## chanikya

Mav3rick said:


> PAF decided on J-10 quite a while back, I wouldn't really be surprised if we already have a squadron or 2 and it's just not announced, due to some tactical reason. In any case at the rate the Chinese are building J-10's, we would have atleast 2 squadrons by 2014/15 even if we order them in 2013, that is if we do not already have some
> 
> By the way even India hasn't decided on MMRCA yet so how come 2014 gets so definite as delivery date?



Sorry bro, but I think you forgot about the latest indian surveillance systems any thing which fly in your territory can not be hidden from us.

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## S10

No J-10 has been delivered to Pakistan. That is not up for debate. CAC employee already stated deliveries will start in the next two years.

With that said, Pakistan can always receive priority delivery from China at any time. In fact, when sh*t hits the fan it can even pull planes directly from current Chinese inventory. During 1965, the first dozen or so F-6 Pakistan received were existing PLAAF J-6 that were quickly repainted in PAF colours. Since PAF regularly sends its pilots to CAC for training and orientation, I suspect quite a few of them are already familiar with the platform. They can pretty much go straight into combat with J-10 if needed.

All Pakistan has to do is ask.

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## mjnaushad

chanikya said:


> Sorry bro, but I think you forgot about the latest indian surveillance systems any thing which fly in your territory can not be hidden from us.



and which is ????


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## chanikya

mjnaushad said:


> and which is ????


 
1. Rohini Radar

The Central Acquisition Radar (3D-CAR) is a 3D radar developed by DRDO for use with Akash SAM. The 3D CAR was developed as part of a program between DRDO and Poland's PIT to develop a family of mobile, S-Band 3D radars. 

The areas of cooperation were in developing the Planar Array and general architecture. The Indian variant is the 3D CAR, a medium range surveillance radar for Akash at Group level, intended to provide high mobility and comprehensive high and low level coverage. The Polish versions, are the TRS series of S Band mobile radars such as the TRS-17 and TRS-19. The original Indian (3D CAR) and Polish (TRS 17) radars shared the basic architecture and antenna but differed in terms of purpose designed transmitter/receivers, and signal processing equipment. The TRS series for instance can track 120 targets, while the Indian radar tracks 150.

2. Rajendra Radar

The Rajendra Multi-Function Phased Array radar system, designed at the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), part of DRDO, is currently in production at Bharat Electronics Limited. This is named after India's First president Dr. Rajendra Prasad.

The LRDE is working on the Rajendra III radar for the Indian Army.[1] Rajendra III is a slewable phased array radar based on the T-72 chassis. As of 2007, the BLR-III vehicle on T-72 chasis was ready for a track test. The Phased array antenna is fabricated at Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), Ghaziabad. Collimated beam pattern and s/s cure for all 16 spot frequencies has been taken.

Current orders for the Rajendra and its derivatives are at least 32 units, considering the order for 2 Squadrons of the Akash system by the Indian Air force and the indent for 28 Weapon Locating Radars by the Indian Army.

3. The Indra Radar

The Indian Doppler Radar (INDRA) series of 2D radars were developed by India's DRDO for the Army and Air Force. The INDRA-I is a is a mobile surveillance radar for low level target detection while the INDRA-II is for ground controlled interception of targets.

INDRA-I is a 2D mobile surveillance radar for low level target detection. The radar is housed in two wheeled vehicles. Some of the main features are automated Track While Scan (TWS), integrated IFF and high scan rate for high speed target detection. The radar is produced by Bharat Electronics Limited and inducted into service. The INDRA-I was a landmark project for the DRDO, as it was the first large radar system designed by the organization and produced in number for the defence forces. The Indian Air Force operates thirty INDRA-I's whereas the Indian Army also has several.

INDRA-II

It is a variant of INDRA radar for ground controlled interception of targets. The radar uses pulse compression for detection of low flying aircraft in heavy ground clutter with high range resolution and ECCM capabilities. The radar has been produced by Bharat Electronics Limited and is used by Indian Air Force and Army. Seven INDRA-IIs have been ordered by the Indian Air Force.

4. Aerostat Radar

India has recently acquired Aerostat radars. The entire system is divided in major parts. Firstly, the aerostat balloon which has been acquired from Israel and second part is the payload on board the balloon which consists, advanced programmable radar (APR), Electronic Intelligence (ELINT), Communication Intelligence (COMINT) and V/UHF radio telephony equipment and Identification Friend or Foe (IFF). It has the capability to be integrated with AWACS and ground air defence environment and funtion as a command and control centre. Depending upon the payload the theethered balloon can be raised to the height between 10000 feet to 16000 feet.

The system gives a seamless radar cover of 300 km plus at low level along with good RT range and requisite ELINT. The system could be termed as static AWACS. Off course it comes with some vulnerabilities and limitations, like weather, wind speeds, lightning & thunder, launch & recovery periods are vulnerabilities. Its virtues also make it a prime target for enemy therfore it needs to be protected by exclusive air defence weapons. But we hope that the advantages of such system would outlast the limitations

5. GreenPine Radar

India has recently acquired Aerostat radars. The entire system is divided in major parts. Firstly, the aerostat balloon which has been acquired from Israel and second part is the payload on board the balloon which consists, advanced programmable radar (APR), Electronic Intelligence (ELINT), Communication Intelligence (COMINT) and V/UHF radio telephony equipment and Identification Friend or Foe (IFF). It has the capability to be integrated with AWACS and ground air defence environment and funtion as a command and control centre. Depending upon the payload the theethered balloon can be raised to the height between 10000 feet to 16000 feet. The system gives a seamless radar cover of 300 km plus at low level along with good RT range and requisite ELINT. The system could be termed as static AWACS. Off course it comes with some vulnerabilities and limitations, like weather, wind speeds, lightning & thunder, launch & recovery periods are vulnerabilities. Its virtues also make it a prime target for enemy therfore it needs to be protected by exclusive air defence weapons. But we hope that the advantages of such system would outlast the limitations

India had acquired and deployed two Green Pine radars around July 2002 and another one in August 2005.[33] The Swordfish Long Range Tracking Radar of the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation is an acknowledged derivative of the original Green Pine.[34] 

The Indian government has sought to purchase the complete Arrow system since 1999,[3] but in early 2002 the U.S. vetoed Israel's request to sell the Arrow 2 missiles to India,[4][33] exercising its right as a major funding contributor.[35] U.S. officials argued that the sale would violate the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).[

6. Sword Fish Radar

Swordfish is an Indian Long range tracking radar specifically developed to counter ballistic missile threat. It will be a part of India's ballistic missile program. First testing of this radar was in March 2009. Main aim of the test was to validate the capabilities of the indigenously developed Swordfish Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR). "The missile to be hit will be fired from a longer distance than it was in the earlier test. DRDO tested whether the radar could track the incoming missile from that distance or not" said a member of the project.

Swordfish is an acknowledged derivative of the Israeli Green Pine long range radar, which is the critical component of that country's Arrow missile defence system. [1] However, it differs from the Israeli system as it employs Indian Transmit Receive modules, signal processing, computers and power supplies. It is also more powerful than the base Green Pine system and was developed to meet India's specific BMD needs.7. Indian Army : Weapon Locating Radars

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## Dr. Strangelove

Zarvan said:


> Sir for your information *J-10B* was developed according to needs of PAF so we al ready decided about it and got it developed to now we have to decide when to get first batch


not j10b it was an export version called fc20


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## DARKY

hasnain0099 said:


> There is no official word on how many J-10s will serve in PAF....150 is estimated requirements. I agree that buying planes is not like buying candies, but PAF's wont be like to have anything like MMRCA tender. Its induction will be much quicker.Moreover, Unofficial induction date cited is mid 2013 (if everything remains on track) .If this does happen, then PAF will again have an early start in its induction vis a vis IAF. So in short, agree with your statement that building fleet not gonna happen overnight but rest assure PAF wont like to stuck with LCA and MMRCA type inductions either.



As far as my thinking goes the 1st J-10B won't be there for PAF any time before 2014.... the 1st batch would be a customary 8-12 planes with PAF markings only delivered by the end of 2014 or the beginning of 2015... If all goes right for PAAF... MMRCA would start its deliveries by 2014 beginning perhaps with 2 squadrons i.e. 40 planes as per IAF standards directly from the vendor with in house production starting by 2015-16.

LCA is a totaly different thing together.. with different needs and requirements... there is no rush and they are waiting for the best unlike..... what must be realized here is that J-10B is still a new plane relatively as compared to LCA or MMRCA... and there would be some problem associated with it at the time of its induction in PLAAF i.e. in 2014 which always is and has been the case with new combat planes and China is not different here.

Other than that It would be better If PAF looks its fleet in 150-200 J-10Bs rather than 300 JF-17.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

marcos98 said:


> So convenient for you to say get this and get that. Having no idea of basic economics and manufacturing field.
> The 36 J-10 comes in from 2014 at the earliest.
> How is PAF going to sustain these numbers you state economically .


the initial order is for 54 jets.... 36 ordered in 2006... 1 more sqd ordererd this year... with the first delivery in late 2012 or 2013.


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## DARKY

SpArK said:


> THE FUTURE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than enough.



Yes No body is talking about this baby... by the time the 1st two squadrons of J-10B of PAF is operational this baby would be taking its 1st breath in subcontinental air as the 1st 5th gen. fighter plan in the region.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

DARKY said:


> Yes No body is talking about this baby... by the time the 1st two squadrons of J-10B of PAF is operational this baby would be taking its 1st breath in subcontinental air as the 1st 5th gen. fighter plan in the region.



You mean by 2013? i doubt tht.... even lca would be inducted after 2015... or maybe 2017.

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## GURU DUTT

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> You mean by 2013? i doubt tht.... even *lca would be inducted after 2015*... or maybe 2017.



are you sure...?


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## karan.1970

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think we all know 2011 , 90 JF17 Thunder already announced 40 plus 50 confirmed
> 
> 40 Thunder 2012
> 40 Thunder 2013
> 40 Thunder 2014
> 40 Thudner 2015
> 
> As for J10B 36 plus OPTIONS ... yes we do have OPTION !!! for 150
> 
> Ask yourself have we ever bought something from China and not ordered MORE ... I mean really
> 
> REALLY ... ask yourself
> 
> F7 , Al Khalids , Kalid 2 , K2 , Thunders ...starts with small number and then the real meal
> 
> Appitizer then the full course meal



90 thunders by end of 2011.. You are dreaming buddy ... Will be surprised if it even hits 50..

And it wont be more than 20-24 per year from 2012.. And thats a tough ask as well


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## DARKY

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> You mean by 2013? i doubt tht.... even lca would be inducted after 2015... or maybe 2017.



2017 is what I meant... J-10B would be available for PLAAF by 2014... I doubt that they'll export then in significant numbers before gaining sufficient strength themselves... and looking at the level of old Junk in their fleet... the possibility of gaining a squadron strength of J-10B in PAF is no way near 2015 even.

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## Shinigami

chanikya said:


> 1. Rohini Radar
> 
> The Central Acquisition Radar (3D-CAR) is a 3D radar developed by DRDO for use with Akash SAM. The 3D CAR was developed as part of a program between DRDO and Poland's PIT to develop a family of mobile, S-Band 3D radars.
> 
> The areas of cooperation were in developing the Planar Array and general architecture. The Indian variant is the 3D CAR, a medium range surveillance radar for Akash at Group level, intended to provide high mobility and comprehensive high and low level coverage. The Polish versions, are the TRS series of S Band mobile radars such as the TRS-17 and TRS-19. The original Indian (3D CAR) and Polish (TRS 17) radars shared the basic architecture and antenna but differed in terms of purpose designed transmitter/receivers, and signal processing equipment. The TRS series for instance can track 120 targets, while the Indian radar tracks 150.
> 
> 2. Rajendra Radar
> 
> The Rajendra Multi-Function Phased Array radar system, designed at the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), part of DRDO, is currently in production at Bharat Electronics Limited. This is named after India's First president Dr. Rajendra Prasad.
> 
> The LRDE is working on the Rajendra III radar for the Indian Army.[1] Rajendra III is a slewable phased array radar based on the T-72 chassis. As of 2007, the BLR-III vehicle on T-72 chasis was ready for a track test. The Phased array antenna is fabricated at Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), Ghaziabad. Collimated beam pattern and s/s cure for all 16 spot frequencies has been taken.
> 
> Current orders for the Rajendra and its derivatives are at least 32 units, considering the order for 2 Squadrons of the Akash system by the Indian Air force and the indent for 28 Weapon Locating Radars by the Indian Army.
> 
> 3. The Indra Radar
> 
> The Indian Doppler Radar (INDRA) series of 2D radars were developed by India's DRDO for the Army and Air Force. The INDRA-I is a is a mobile surveillance radar for low level target detection while the INDRA-II is for ground controlled interception of targets.
> 
> INDRA-I is a 2D mobile surveillance radar for low level target detection. The radar is housed in two wheeled vehicles. Some of the main features are automated Track While Scan (TWS), integrated IFF and high scan rate for high speed target detection. The radar is produced by Bharat Electronics Limited and inducted into service. The INDRA-I was a landmark project for the DRDO, as it was the first large radar system designed by the organization and produced in number for the defence forces. The Indian Air Force operates thirty INDRA-I's whereas the Indian Army also has several.
> 
> INDRA-II
> 
> It is a variant of INDRA radar for ground controlled interception of targets. The radar uses pulse compression for detection of low flying aircraft in heavy ground clutter with high range resolution and ECCM capabilities. The radar has been produced by Bharat Electronics Limited and is used by Indian Air Force and Army. Seven INDRA-IIs have been ordered by the Indian Air Force.
> 
> 4. Aerostat Radar
> 
> India has recently acquired Aerostat radars. The entire system is divided in major parts. Firstly, the aerostat balloon which has been acquired from Israel and second part is the payload on board the balloon which consists, advanced programmable radar (APR), Electronic Intelligence (ELINT), Communication Intelligence (COMINT) and V/UHF radio telephony equipment and Identification Friend or Foe (IFF). It has the capability to be integrated with AWACS and ground air defence environment and funtion as a command and control centre. Depending upon the payload the theethered balloon can be raised to the height between 10000 feet to 16000 feet.
> 
> The system gives a seamless radar cover of 300 km plus at low level along with good RT range and requisite ELINT. The system could be termed as static AWACS. Off course it comes with some vulnerabilities and limitations, like weather, wind speeds, lightning & thunder, launch & recovery periods are vulnerabilities. Its virtues also make it a prime target for enemy therfore it needs to be protected by exclusive air defence weapons. But we hope that the advantages of such system would outlast the limitations
> 
> 5. GreenPine Radar
> 
> India has recently acquired Aerostat radars. The entire system is divided in major parts. Firstly, the aerostat balloon which has been acquired from Israel and second part is the payload on board the balloon which consists, advanced programmable radar (APR), Electronic Intelligence (ELINT), Communication Intelligence (COMINT) and V/UHF radio telephony equipment and Identification Friend or Foe (IFF). It has the capability to be integrated with AWACS and ground air defence environment and funtion as a command and control centre. Depending upon the payload the theethered balloon can be raised to the height between 10000 feet to 16000 feet. The system gives a seamless radar cover of 300 km plus at low level along with good RT range and requisite ELINT. The system could be termed as static AWACS. Off course it comes with some vulnerabilities and limitations, like weather, wind speeds, lightning & thunder, launch & recovery periods are vulnerabilities. Its virtues also make it a prime target for enemy therfore it needs to be protected by exclusive air defence weapons. But we hope that the advantages of such system would outlast the limitations
> 
> India had acquired and deployed two Green Pine radars around July 2002 and another one in August 2005.[33] The Swordfish Long Range Tracking Radar of the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation is an acknowledged derivative of the original Green Pine.[34]
> 
> The Indian government has sought to purchase the complete Arrow system since 1999,[3] but in early 2002 the U.S. vetoed Israel's request to sell the Arrow 2 missiles to India,[4][33] exercising its right as a major funding contributor.[35] U.S. officials argued that the sale would violate the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).[
> 
> 6. Sword Fish Radar
> 
> Swordfish is an Indian Long range tracking radar specifically developed to counter ballistic missile threat. It will be a part of India's ballistic missile program. First testing of this radar was in March 2009. Main aim of the test was to validate the capabilities of the indigenously developed Swordfish Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR). "The missile to be hit will be fired from a longer distance than it was in the earlier test. DRDO tested whether the radar could track the incoming missile from that distance or not" said a member of the project.
> 
> Swordfish is an acknowledged derivative of the Israeli Green Pine long range radar, which is the critical component of that country's Arrow missile defence system. [1] However, it differs from the Israeli system as it employs Indian Transmit Receive modules, signal processing, computers and power supplies. It is also more powerful than the base Green Pine system and was developed to meet India's specific BMD needs.7. Indian Army : Weapon Locating Radars



actually india's most used form of data gathering is spy satellites.

i met someone in the indian navy who was employed to track ship movements in karachi *15 years ago*

god knows what india has these days with all these spy satellites they are launching

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## DESERT FIGHTER

DARKY said:


> 2017 is what I meant... J-10B would be available for PLAAF by 2014... I doubt that they'll export then in significant numbers before gaining sufficient strength themselves... and looking at the level of old Junk in their fleet... the possibility of gaining a squadron strength of J-10B in PAF is no way near 2015 even.



J-10B or FC-1O is tailor made for PAF... Our eng n pilots r working n tested the platform as we speak.... while the confirmation of deliveries has been done by a CAC employee.

Abt their inventory they have around 200 J-10s in service as of now... 100 su-30s,190 J-11Bs--90 more on order,around 70 su-27s, plus the j-15s... etc.

Also not to forget the massive infra for production... abt JF-17...rate of induction is 50+ jets per year with PAC chunning out the same in a year or 2.... even now PAC is producing 50-53% of the part of JF-17.

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## DARKY

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> J-10B or FC-1O is tailor made for PAF... Our eng n pilots r working n tested the platform as we speak.... while the confirmation of deliveries has been done by *a CAC employee*.
> 
> Abt their inventory they have around 200 J-10s in service as of now... *100 su-30s*,*190 J-11Bs*--90 more on order,around 70 su-27s, plus the j-15s... etc.
> 
> Also not to forget the massive infra for production... abt JF-17...rate of induction is 50+ jets per year with PAC chunning out the same in a year or 2.... even now PAC is producing 50-53% of the part of JF-17.



Its not 100 Su 30s.. and those are for PLAN not PLAAF And those are J-11s and J-11Bs combined J-15 Not yet inducted and whenever that will happen that would happen for PLAN not PLAAF... And their Su 27s are already old and need overhaul and upgradation in electronics and weaponry... aswell as avionics suit same goes for J-11 fleet (excluding J-11B).

At the same time they need to retire J-6, J-7, A-5 ground attack aircrafts and many other old 2nd and 3rd gen. aircrafts which still form the bulk of PLAAF and number in excess of 1000.

And care to name the employee who said that... or atleast provide the source for your employee information... I am sure if any such employee existed he/she would've been slaughtered by now by CCP.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

DARKY said:


> Its not 100 Su 30s.. and those are for PLAN not PLAAF And those are J-11s and J-11Bs combined J-15 Not yet inducted and whenever that will happen that would happen for PLAN not PLAAF... And their Su 27s are already old and need overhaul and upgradation in electronics and weaponry... aswell as avionics suit same goes for J-11 fleet (excluding J-11B).
> 
> At the same time they need to retire J-6, J-7, A-5 ground attack aircrafts and many other old 2nd and 3rd gen. aircrafts which still form the bulk of PLAAF and number in excess of 1000.
> 
> And care to name the employee who said that... or atleast provide the source for your employee information... I am sure if any such employee existed he/she would've been slaughtered by now by CCP.



Go through the FC-20 MRCA thread.


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## S10

DARKY said:


> Its not 100 Su 30s.. and those are for PLAN not PLAAF And those are J-11s and J-11Bs combined J-15 Not yet inducted and whenever that will happen that would happen for PLAN not PLAAF... And their Su 27s are already old and need overhaul and upgradation in electronics and weaponry... aswell as avionics suit same goes for J-11 fleet (excluding J-11B).
> 
> At the same time they need to retire J-6, J-7, A-5 ground attack aircrafts and many other old 2nd and 3rd gen. aircrafts which still form the bulk of PLAAF and number in excess of 1000.
> 
> And care to name the employee who said that... or atleast provide the source for your employee information... I am sure if any such employee existed he/she would've been slaughtered by now by CCP.


 
Have a read through these two threads:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ext-generation-fighter-program-confirmed.html

PS: All J-6 has been retired from active service since early 2000's.

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## Mav3rick

Shinigami said:


> actually india's most used form of data gathering is spy satellites.
> 
> i met someone in the indian navy who was employed to track ship movements in karachi *15 years ago*
> 
> god knows what india has these days with all these spy satellites they are launching


 
Yeah....today they can watch crew from Agostas changing their clothes at maximum depth. Too bad for Pak Navy.

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------




S10 said:


> Have a read through these two threads:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ext-generation-fighter-program-confirmed.html
> 
> PS: All J-6 has been retired from active service since early 2000's.


 
They are?? Damn!!! If only IAF knew of that they would have grounded all their Mig-21's.


Ah well.....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Thunders multiply like rabbits


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## regular

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Thunders multiply like rabbits


Oh My God! I love to have some of those rabbits too.Nice cute ones in my backyard....


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## PakShaheen79

Latest on MRCA
---------------
*
UK held secret briefing for India on missiles in Libyan war*
PTI Oct 16, 2011, 09.38PM IST
Tags:
Missile Performance|MBDA Missiles|MBDA
MANCHESTER: At a time when NATO forces were destroying the bases of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, Britain gave a secret presentation to the Indian Air Force (IAF) about the performance in the Libyan war of MBDA missiles, which have been offered to New Delhi.

"A presentation was given to the Indian Air Force two months ago where senior officers including the present chief (Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne) were present, about the performance of the Brim Stone precision guided missile," Frank Morgan, a senior MBDA executive, told a group of Indian reporters here.

UK held secret briefing for India on missiles in Libyan war - Times Of India

This is said to be 3 times more powerful than AGM-65 Mervick missiles against the armoured targets.





*Specifications*

Length: 1.8 m
Diameter: 17.8 cm
Weight: 48.5 kg
Range: 20+ km
Speed: Supersonic
Control: Aerodynamic surfaces on missile
Propulsion: Solid-rocket
Guidance: 94 GHz Millimetric wave radar (MMW) & digital autopilot
Warhead: HEAT tandem warhead - initial charge triggers reactive armour followed by the main high explosive anti-tank shaped charge jet
Fuze: Crush fuze (detonation on impact)


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## Storm Force

33 Thunders in 2 years is the going rate. = 16 JFT a year at best. 

By the time PAF has 250 JFT i 2025 THE PLANE WILL BE obselete.

Thats why i stil think your delivery production will cease in 2017 at 150 in nos as you switch to FC20 

36 HOURS FROM TODAY IAF will annouce the winner of the MMRCA . BY 2012 SUMMER THE FIRST SDQ will be in india 

And by 2014 license production of MMRCA will begin. 

By 2015 ALL 270 SU30MKI will have arrived and be carrying the super sukhoi upgrade 

2018 the PAK FA will start to arrive fifth generation arrives in india 

THATS PAK FA, mmrca ,, su30mki ,,, tejas LCA mk1/2 

AND YOU GUYS WANT TO BUILD 250 JFT thunders 

R U SURE ????? THIS IS A GOOD USE OF YOUR VERY SMALL FRACTION RESOURCES

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## PakShaheen79

Storm Force said:


> 33 Thunders in 2 years is the going rate. = 16 JFT a year at best.
> 
> By the time PAF has 250 JFT i 2025 THE PLANE WILL BE obselete.
> 
> Thats why i stil think your delivery production will cease in 2017 at 150 in nos as you switch to FC20
> 
> 36 HOURS FROM TODAY IAF will annouce the winner of the MMRCA . BY 2012 SUMMER THE FIRST SDQ will be in india
> 
> And by 2014 license production of MMRCA will begin.
> 
> By 2015 ALL 270 SU30MKI will have arrived and be carrying the super sukhoi upgrade
> 
> 2018 the PAK FA will start to arrive fifth generation arrives in india
> 
> THATS PAK FA, mmrca ,, su30mki ,,, tejas LCA mk1/2
> 
> AND YOU GUYS WANT TO BUILD 250 JFT thunders
> 
> R U SURE ????? THIS IS A GOOD USE OF YOUR VERY SMALL FRACTION RESOURCES



1. who told you that the production rate of JFT would be stay at same level? Didn't u follow PAC Nawabshah threat. I have mentioned this that now 4 out of 6 previous aircraft rebuild factories in PAC Kamra would be dedicated to JFT production from next year. So, PAF having 250 JFT till 2025 is an Indian wet dream. U remember there was a time when Indians on internet would make fun of FC-1/Super-7 program and now they are dreaming about PAF not taking delivery on time. Carry on! nothing is going to change.

2. Uh really. I would love to see the finalist of MMRCA. Good for India. But how on earth, First Squadron would become operational by Summer 2012 in IAF is beyond my comprehension. Aircraft integration in Air Force is not that simple even if you get them that quick.

3. Yup, SU-30MKI are really challenge but then again FC-20 is purposely built there.

4.PAK-FA ..... How many prototypes of PAK-FA (twin seat version of T-50) are flying right now?

5.That FC-20, F-16s (upgraded to block-50 standard), JFT block 1/2,

Yes, we do need 250 JFT to replace out aging fleet of F-7, Mirages etc.

This is excellent use ... don't worry about our resources that must not be YOUR problem. Just tell me which Indian military capability was not matched by Pakistan? So, a certain level of balance in South Asian skies would be preserved.

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## Secur

Storm Force said:


> 36 HOURS FROM TODAY IAF will annouce the winner of the MMRCA . BY 2012 SUMMER THE FIRST SDQ will be in india
> 
> And by 2014 license production of MMRCA will begin.
> 
> By 2015 ALL 270 SU30MKI will have arrived and be carrying the super sukhoi upgrade
> 
> 2018 the PAK FA will start to arrive fifth generation arrives in india
> 
> THATS PAK FA, mmrca ,, su30mki ,,, tejas LCA mk1/2


 How exactly will you have First Squadron of MRCA in India by 2012 ? Back it with credible sources ... Is Tejas even on the schedule ? Reports indicate that its final Operational Clearance has been delayed by almost a year to DEC 2013 ... Do you understand what does it mean ? and one thing more how do you expect AMCA to be completed on time when even Tejas is having difficulty take off ? and if by 2015 the JF 17 Thunder will be obsolete then what do you think will be the fate of the Tejas MK1 , Jaguars and the Migs that your airforce operates ? Nothing like Super Sukhoi exists at the moment and the PAK FA certainly isn't coming anywhere in 2018 ! and yes like India , we need JFT to replace all our 3rd Generation planes and we have started to do so ... We already have two squadrons of JFT flying ...


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## Storm Force

Pak Shaheen.

How Many FC20 ARE IN PAF SERVICE..? yes the answer is nil 

How many SU30MKI in service ? YES 150 

How many coming off production lines in india ? YES 17 per year

How many SU30MKI in service when PAF gets its first FC20 in 2014 ? yes you your right over 220 .

THE SU30MKI is in its 10th year of induction 2001 it entered service 

Already the super sukhoi upgrade programme has started IAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKI Jets To Be Upgraded To Super Sukhois Level ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

I could post a dozen links on this upgrade programme. 

HIGHLY ADVANCED VERY MATURE PROGRAMME FULLY INTERGRATED INTO THE INDIAN DEFENSE INFRASTRUCTURE $13 billion cost

Your JF17 programme is minature programme in contrast both in terms of COST, technology,, and nos you are a decade away grom getting where india is with the MKI with your thunder programme. 

AS FOR FC20 its not even ready yet 

SECUR 

You mentioned 

TEJAS well its happening at its own pace ITS ONE OF 4 different fighter programmes currently running for india 

INDENGIOUS IAF TEJAS MK1 & 2 
su30mki as above 2001-2016 
MMRCA winner to be annouced friday 4th november a license production to begin 2014 . India Likely To Open MMRCA Bids On Nov. 4 | AVIATION WEEK
PAK FA FGFA with russia 
There 2 flying the 3rd is doing taxi trials and the uindian version will fly 2013 







THERE ARE 2 PAK FA FLYING AS WE SPEAK


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## Storm Force

For the record

PAF budget is around 10% of the indian air force budget for the next decade

ie INDIA will spend $100 billion on its air force alone between 2011-2021 

Thanks to the fastest growing GDP in the G20 ( 20 LARGEST ECONOMYS IN THE WORLD)


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## DARKY

S10 said:


> Have a read through these two threads:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ext-generation-fighter-program-confirmed.html
> 
> PS: All J-6 has been retired from active service since early 2000's.



You post says about 10 LSP aircrafts delivered by 2012... which would've to be tested by PLAAF pilots before final nod for bulk production... hence add another year for the actual deliveries to start... even on that note engine glitches on LSP and actuall production aircrafts remains to be seen.

And the whole thread rather became a battle ground to prove which jet would be exported to PAF J-10A or J-10B.... If it is J-10A then I don't see why there's a delay... (PAF don't trust Chinese engines perhaps..).
And If it is J-10B then again I don't see any reason why it would be delivered to PAF any time before 2014.... owing to the fact that PAF would itself start its bulk induction by 2014 only.

so they finally retire J-6 from service.... 
however they still have J-7, J-8, Q-5 etc numbering about 1000 which requires immediate replacements.


----------



## DARKY

PakShaheen79 said:


> 1. who told you that the production rate of JFT would be stay at same level? Didn't u follow PAC Nawabshah threat. I have mentioned this that now 4 out of 6 previous aircraft rebuild factories in PAC Kamra would be dedicated to JFT production from next year. So, PAF having 250 JFT till 2025 is an Indian wet dream. U remember there was a time when Indians on internet would make fun of FC-1/Super-7 program and now they are dreaming about PAF not taking delivery on time. Carry on! nothing is going to change.
> 
> Inducting 250-300 JF-17 could well be the same mistake which IAF did by inducting about 700 Mig 21s during 70s and 80s....
> What must be realized here is that the combat scenario in next 10 years would change drastically with mutirole fighters and availability of datalinks.
> 
> 2. Uh really. I would love to see the finalist of MMRCA. Good for India. But how on earth, First Squadron would become operational by Summer 2012 in IAF is beyond my comprehension. Aircraft integration in Air Force is not that simple even if you get them that quick.
> 
> I don't think it would be that quick... however whenever that happens the shipment of 1st two squadrons would be made within 2 years after the signing of deal.... the tenders for final bid of the two selected fighters open on friday..
> 
> 3. Yup, SU-30MKI are really challenge but then again FC-20 is purposely built there.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what kind of electronics the FC 20 comes up with against MKIs by 2014 the super MKIs would start its deliveries... so expect even better electronics from the MKI side as compared to now.
> 
> 4.PAK-FA ..... How many prototypes of PAK-FA (twin seat version of T-50) are flying right now?
> 
> Two flying 3rd will fly by the end of the year or January nest year... 2015 Russian AF would recive its 1st batch and 2017 IAF would receive Its 1st batch... 1st FGFA to be delivered by 2020 with a completely new engine.
> 
> 5.That FC-20, F-16s (upgraded to block-50 standard), JFT block 1/2,
> 
> Yes, we do need 250 JFT to replace out aging fleet of F-7, Mirages etc.
> 
> This is excellent use ... don't worry about our resources that must not be YOUR problem. Just tell me which Indian military capability was not matched by Pakistan? So, a certain level of balance in South Asian skies would be preserved.



Again it would be silly to do a quantitative replacement... when the need of the time is quality based replacement.


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## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> You post says about 10 LSP aircrafts delivered by 2012... which would've to be tested by PLAAF pilots before final nod for bulk production... hence add another year for the actual deliveries to start... even on that note engine glitches on LSP and actuall production aircrafts remains to be seen.
> 
> And the whole thread rather became a battle ground to prove which jet would be exported to PAF J-10A or J-10B.... If it is J-10A then I don't see why there's a delay... (PAF don't trust Chinese engines perhaps..).
> And If it is J-10B then again I don't see any reason why it would be delivered to PAF any time before 2014.... owing to the fact that PAF would itself start its bulk induction by 2014 only.
> 
> so they finally retire J-6 from service....
> however they still have J-7, J-8, Q-5 etc numbering about 1000 which requires immediate replacements.



Thank God the Chinese do not have a habit of dreaming of what they would have in the next 10-25 years......infact they do not even tell you what they currently have and that is the best part. The whole world is surprised at the pace at which the Chinese have developed their own 5th gen fighter, and dude if the following is true:

"*Globalsecurity.org states that China probably declined to participate in joint development and production of new fifth generation fighter with Russia given the belief that Russia stood to gain more from Chinese participation.* Chinese leaders may have determined that their design was superior to the Russian PAK FA.[29] United States House Committee on Armed Services chairman Howard McKeon said on the J-20 "my understanding is that they built it on information that they received from Russia, from a Russian plane, that they were able to copy".[30] MiG spokeswoman Yelena Fyodorova has denied that any of the project 1.44 materials had been provided to China"

then we can assume that China will overtake Russia in jet fighter development faster then we expect.


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> Again it would be silly to do a quantitative replacement... when the need of the time is quality based replacement.



Exactly and that is why we believe that our current F-16's are more then a match for your flagship SU-30MKI's.......JFT and the rest are more then enough for your other inventory, speaking strictly in a defensive strategy as we will not have to match IAF fighter-fighter as our SAM sites will also be a force multiplier in defence. Now since IAF continues to build more SU-30MKI's, we require more jets to counter that and we cannot rely on F-16's (due to the mood swings of our ally), we decided to find an alternate, perhaps even a better one, in J-10's.

By the time India fields PAK-FA, we will have our hands on J-XX.....no doubt there.


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## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> Exactly and that is why we believe that our current F-16's are more then a match for your flagship SU-30MKI's



How many of these F 16 actually do have BVR capability today??


----------



## PakShaheen79

SF,

It was you to come up with the idea that by 2012 first squadron of MMRCA will be there and by 2018 PAK-FA would be there. So, It is absolutely meaningless to argue the number of FC-20 in PAF right now. 

BTW, you didn't answer my question that how you are going to integrate first MMRCA squadron by 2012?

I already admitted in my post that MKI is and would remain a challenge for PAF. So what is the point?

those are T-50 (Russian version) prototypes not PAK-FA prototype (Indian version) and in your next post you said it yourself that Indian version will fly in 2013. So, again it seems difficult to me inducting them anytime before 2020-2022.


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## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> How many of these F 16 actually do have BVR capability today??



Not only F-16, even our Mirages have BVR capability and we have x number of 500 AIM-120C5's that were ordered in 2006

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## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> Not only F-16, even our Mirages have BVR capability and we have x number of 500 AIM-120C5's that were ordered in 2006



But isnt BVR capability only available on blk 52 onwards ? Or has there been an upgrade on earlier F 16s to provide that capability ?


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## PakShaheen79

Darky,

FYI, all modern fighters are multirole by design. So, is JFT. It was never a fighter or interceptor kind of machine from inception. Pakistan Air Force needed something for future in late 1990's as F-16s (a true multirole ) were denied to PAF. Just to give you an idea, please look the weapon systems being integrated with JFT.






Air-to-Air
Air-to-Ground
Anti-ship 
Plus new EW suit .... what else there must be in a multirole fighter. So, it proves that replacement of F-7 and Mirage fleets with JFT is much more than a mere quantative replacement.

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## Jungibaaz

karan.1970 said:


> But isnt BVR capability only available on blk 52 onwards ? Or has there been an upgrade on earlier F 16s to provide that capability ?



If memory serves me correctly even Block 20 had some BVR capability with AN/APG-66(V)3 and AIM-7.

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## karan.1970

Jungibaaz said:


> If memory serves me correctly even Block 20 had some BVR capability with AN/APG-66(V)3 and AIM-7.



Dont have much info on that.. But I do remember that during Kargil war, PAF had to stay off since they faced a distinct disadvantage of not having BVR capability. Hope people like Taimi, Mastan or Santro can throw some light here.


----------



## Jungibaaz

DARKY said:


> Again it would be silly to do a quantitative replacement... when the need of the time is quality based replacement.



a quantitative replacement? come on mate...
think about the JFT squadrons that used to use A-5s? are you saying that it wasn't a generation leap for them?

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## MZUBAIR

PAF answers to IAF

HAL, Mirage 2K = Mirage ROSE
MIG 29 = JF17
MIG 21, MIG 27, JAGUAR = F7PG, JF17
MKI = F-16 BLK 52, JF17

for
IAF MRCA = J-10B, JF-17 BLK II

---------- Post added at 07:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 AM ----------




Jungibaaz said:


> a quantitative replacement? come on mate...
> think about the JFT squadrons that used to use A-5s? are you saying that *it wasn't a generation leap for them?*



Pilots of F-16 flying new JF SQD's.

Pilots of A5 are on trainings.


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## ziaulislam

JF-17 block 1 is superior/can counter to all aircrafts in indian arsenal other than the MKI..
this doesnt mean that when it faces MKI it will fall like flies..it just mean that in alone theater it will be at serious disavantage...

jf-17 block 2 will be able to easily counter the MRCa too..
howevr 60 j-10s and approx 63+ f-16s will be there too

real issue will be the PAKFA..


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## MZUBAIR

karan.1970 said:


> Dont have much info on that.. But I do remember that during Kargil war, PAF had to stay off since they faced a distinct disadvantage of not having BVR capability. Hope people like Taimi, Mastan or Santro can throw some light here.



True, they PAF dont have BVR capabilities *but that wasnt the reason to hault Airforce*.
There were other reasons [Political & Strategical], that Airforce wasn't applied.
Would like to mention one that the action taken by PAK ARMY was on individual, State not ordered to make attempt.

I hope you the answer !!!


----------



## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> Dont have much info on that.. But I do remember that during Kargil war, PAF had to stay off since they faced a distinct disadvantage of not having BVR capability. Hope people like Taimi, Mastan or Santro can throw some light here.



Don't go believing everything that you are told. Remember Kargil was supposed to be 'freedom fighters' without support of PM? So technically PAF could not provide any support.

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## CorporateAffairs

@subject


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## MZUBAIR

CorporateAffairs said:


> @subject



PAF answers to IAF

HAL, Mirage 2K = Mirage ROSE
MIG 29 = JF17
MIG 21, MIG 27, JAGUAR = F7PG, JF17
MKI = F-16 MLU + BLK 52, JF17

for
IAF MRCA = J-10B, JF-17 BLK II


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## CorporateAffairs

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF answers to IAF
> 
> HAL, Mirage 2K = Mirage ROSE
> MIG 29 = JF17
> MIG 21, MIG 27, JAGUAR = F7PG, JF17
> MKI = F-16 MLU + BLK 52, JF17
> 
> for
> IAF MRCA = J-10B, JF-17 BLK II



Bro, Pak is no match for India. I'm not trying to degrade any country in here. 

I have my due regards to Pak.


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## Abingdonboy

I just don't understand. I'd gave thought the only way to fight a quantitively superior enemy was through superior quality however the EFT, RAFELE and MKI are the best 4.5 gen fighters available so surely nothing short of a 5th gen fighter is going to be enough to counter the IAF let alone eventual MMRCA winner. 


Also given we will see 5th gen fighters in service with IAF within the next decade what does PAF have to counter these? Surely this is a MUCH larger issue than MMRCA which could easily be replaced by MKI- 5th gen are a while different ball game.


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## notorious_eagle

CorporateAffairs said:


> Bro, Pak is no match for India. I'm not trying to degrade any country in here.
> 
> I have my due regards to Pak.



If your General Staff had the same opinion, i would actually believe what you say but for so far your General Staff has an opinion opposite of what you are advocating, thus i dont agree with what you are saying. If Pakistan was no match for India's might, trust me India would have not been afraid to use her military muscle to settle out all her problems with Pakistan. So far she has refrained from using military muscle which clearly suggests that Indian General Staff Office is not confident in her abilities to solve her problems with Pakistan through a military solution. Also, please save this talk of our politicians not having the balls to launch a fight against Pakistan because its not fooling anyone here.



Abingdonboy said:


> I just don't understand. I'd gave thought the only way to fight a quantitively superior enemy was through superior quality however the EFT, RAFELE and MKI are the best 4.5 gen fighters available so surely nothing short of a 5th gen fighter is going to be enough to counter the IAF let alone eventual MMRCA winner.
> 
> 
> Also given we will see 5th gen fighters in service with IAF within the next decade what does PAF have to counter these? Surely this is a MUCH larger issue than MMRCA which could easily be replaced by MKI- 5th gen are a while different ball game.



Thats the problem with you fanboys, you just look at new shiny toys and go all gaga over them. What you fail to look at is the doctrine, strategy, cohesive force that is required to fight a war and not just fancy toys. PAF is buying exactly the right technology it needs to tame the IAF and so far its succeeding.

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## AUz

CorporateAffairs said:


> Bro, Pak is no match for India. I'm not trying to degrade any country in here.
> 
> I have my due regards to Pak.



Do you know more than your Indian generals? Fan boys like you compare asset to asset and soldier to soldier and say "Yeah yeah..see Pakistan is no match" ...Strategically speaking,India can't do *nothing* to Pakistan militarily. We all saw what happened after Mumbai slaughter and Parliament attacks ...There exist a *balance of power* in the region and it will continue to exist in the foreseeable future.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF answers to IAF
> 
> HAL, Mirage 2K = Mirage ROSE
> MIG 29 = JF17
> MIG 21, MIG 27, JAGUAR = F7PG, JF17
> MKI = F-16 BLK 52, JF17
> 
> for
> IAF MRCA = J-10B, JF-17 BLK II
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Pilots of F-16 flying new JF SQD's.
> 
> Pilots of A5 are on trainings.







I think its more or less


*Pakistan vs India (MF Ra One)*

Mirage + F7 ############### vs Mig 21 - Jaguare - Mig 29
F7PG################ vs LCA 
F16 A/B (Upgraded)####### vs Mirage 2000 
JF17, JF17 BLK II ######### vs MKI by 2012
J10B , F16C/D ##########vs MKI by 2015

*J11 , J10B options##########vs MRCA by 2018*


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## karan.1970

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think its more or less
> 
> 
> *Pakistan vs India (MF Ra One)*
> 
> Mirage + F7############### vs Mig 21 - Jaguare - Mig 29
> F7PG################ vs LCA
> F16 A/B (Upgraded)####### vs Mirage 2000
> JF17, JF17 BLK II ######### vs MKI by 2012
> J10B , F16C/D ##########vs MRCA by 2015




*Mirage + F7############### Mig 29
F7PG################ vs LCA 
*

Nah!... LCA and Mig 29s would going up against the 16s and 17s of PAF

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## raavan

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF answers to IAF
> 
> HAL, Mirage 2K = Mirage ROSE
> MIG 29 = JF17
> * MIG 21, MIG 27, JAGUAR = F7PG, JF17
> * MKI = F-16 MLU + BLK 52, JF17
> 
> 
> for
> IAF MRCA = J-10B, JF-17 BLK II



You cannot be serious in equating Mig21 Bis with Jf-17. Mig 21 Bis is a more potent aircraft. ............


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> Thank God the Chinese do not have a habit of dreaming of what they would have in the next 10-25 years......infact they do not even tell you what they currently have and that is the best part. The whole world is surprised at the pace at which the Chinese have developed their own 5th gen fighter, and dude if the following is true:
> 
> "*Globalsecurity.org states that China probably declined to participate in joint development and production of new fifth generation fighter with Russia given the belief that Russia stood to gain more from Chinese participation.* Chinese leaders may have determined that their design was superior to the Russian PAK FA.[29] United States House Committee on Armed Services chairman Howard McKeon said on the J-20 "my understanding is that *they built it on information that they received from Russia*, *from a Russian plane*, *that they were able to copy*".[30] MiG spokeswoman Yelena Fyodorova has denied that any of the project 1.44 materials had been provided to China"
> 
> then *we can assume* that China will overtake Russia in jet fighter development faster then we expect.



Yes we can definitely *Assume*...


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## DARKY

notorious_eagle said:


> If your General Staff had the same opinion, i would actually believe what you say but for so far your General Staff has an opinion opposite of what you are advocating, thus i dont agree with what you are saying. If Pakistan was no match for India's might, trust me *India would have not been afraid to use her military muscle to settle out all her problems with Pakistan*. So far she has refrained from using military muscle which clearly suggests that Indian General Staff Office is not confident in her abilities to solve her problems with Pakistan through a military solution. Also, please save this talk of our politicians not having the balls to launch a fight against Pakistan because its not fooling anyone here.



Next you can say the same for Bangladesh, Nepal and Sir Lanka even.. all had or have some or the other land or sea boundary dispute against India and India has never used any force against them so even these countries are an equal match for India according to your BS theory.



notorious_eagle said:


> Thats the problem with you fanboys, you just look at new shiny toys and go all gaga over them. What you fail to look at is the* doctrine*, *strategy*, *cohesive force* that is required to fight a war and not just fancy toys. PAF is buying exactly the right technology it needs to tame the IAF and so far its succeeding.



What Doctrine, Strategy, and Cohesive force are you talking of here all we can see here is that you are trying to match number with numbers... planes with planes.

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## ramu

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF answers to IAF
> 
> HAL, Mirage 2K = Mirage ROSE
> *MIG 29 = JF17*
> MIG 21, MIG 27, JAGUAR = F7PG, JF17
> *MKI = F-16 MLU + BLK 52, JF17*
> 
> for
> IAF MRCA = J-10B,* JF-17 BLK II*

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## Birbal

Mav3rick said:


> Thank God the Chinese do not have a habit of dreaming of what they would have in the next 10-25 years......infact they do not even tell you what they currently have and that is the best part. The whole world is surprised at the pace at which the Chinese have developed their own 5th gen fighter, and dude if the following is true:
> 
> "*Globalsecurity.org states that China probably declined to participate in joint development and production of new fifth generation fighter with Russia given the belief that Russia stood to gain more from Chinese participation.* Chinese leaders may have determined that their design was superior to the Russian PAK FA.[29] United States House Committee on Armed Services chairman Howard McKeon said on the J-20 "my understanding is that they built it on information that they received from Russia, from a Russian plane, that they were able to copy".[30] *MiG spokeswoman Yelena Fyodorova has denied that any of the project 1.44 materials had been provided to China"*
> 
> then we can assume that China will overtake Russia in jet fighter development faster then we expect.



She denied that any materials had been provided to China. That only means MiG didn't willfully provide anything to the Chinese. Doesn't mean the Chinese couldn't have gotten their hands on MiG 1.44 technical documents through espionage (i.e. bribing MiG employees).

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## PiyaraPakistan




----------



## PakShaheen79

So, when would MMRCA winner would be announced? According to SF it was supposed to be today.


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## SBD-3

Birbal said:


> She denied that any materials had been provided to China. That only means MiG didn't willfully provide anything to the Chinese. Doesn't mean the Chinese couldn't have gotten their hands on MiG 1.44 technical documents through espionage (i.e. bribing MiG employees).


Had you read Pupu's interview about J-20, he was specifically asked this question and his reply was that there was a considerable number of Russian scientists now working in Chinese aviation industry and were paid well by Chinese. Some of them also had marriages in China and were now Chinese nationals.


----------



## SBD-3

DARKY said:


> Yes we can definitely *Assume*...


in some areas i.e. Avionics,EW,Armament they have matched the russians, in some areas e.g. AWACS development,UAVs,0 they have exceeded the Russians, but Russians are still relatively ahead of Chinese in engine development.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------




PakShaheen79 said:


> So, when would MMRCA winner would be announced? According to SF it was supposed to be today.


7 to 8 years is very long time....MMRCA reminds me of "Sas bhee kabi bahu thee" serial.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

ramu said:


>


 
Whats funny abt it?
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...hYzBAw&usg=AFQjCNHusP2P18bRAKmTpAuEtBc3iU6MDQ

N tht was 2 years ago.... from the houses mouth!

JF-17 blkII will be much more advanced.... also su-30mki aint really GODS GIFT TO AVIATION as u indians make it to be ... is it?

Funny stuff is when u compare su-30 with f-35,f-22,J-20 

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...sqTLAw&usg=AFQjCNHEH3WUfl6lsVUK_JYQV8PC79ZuZQ

a good example...

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## MZUBAIR

Mark my words

They will buy french ..........they cant go for Eurofighters, legal and contract binding wouldnt allow them to do this. 
None of them [Euro proj partners] intrested in TOT except French !!!!


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## Secur

raavan said:


> You cannot be serious in equating Mig21 Bis with Jf-17. Mig 21 Bis is a more potent aircraft. ............


 On BR probably but things are different in the real world

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## Dr. Strangelove

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Funny stuff is when u compare su-30 with f-35,f-22,J-20
> 
> http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...sqTLAw&usg=AFQjCNHEH3WUfl6lsVUK_JYQV8PC79ZuZQ
> 
> a good example...


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## Mav3rick

MZUBAIR said:


> Mark my words
> 
> They will buy french ..........they cant go for Eurofighters, legal and contract binding wouldnt allow them to do this.
> None of them [Euro proj partners] intrested in TOT except French !!!!



I think ToT is a condition of bid, even USA would have had to comply with that, had they qualified.


----------



## Secur

ramu said:


>




* JFT is "Extremely close" to MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan
*

Published 05 July, 2010, 22:52

Edited 22 July, 2010, 06:29

_Russian and Chinese weapons manufacturers are clashing head on within the international arms market as China&#8217;s new fighter jet seems to be a cheaper imitation of the Russian original.
_
_The argument is threatening to put on hold a multi-billion-dollar engines sale contract between the countries concerning the delivery of some hundreds Russian-made RD-93 engines needed for Chinese-Pakistani fighter jets called the FC-1.
_

_The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers.
_
_A source quoted by the Kommersant newspaper said there are significant price differences keeping the US$10-million Chinese jets much cheaper than a $35-million Russian MiG-29._

Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets &mdash; RT

Enjoy !!!


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## GURU DUTT

Secur said:


> * JFT is "Extremely close" to MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan
> *
> 
> Published 05 July, 2010, 22:52
> 
> Edited 22 July, 2010, 06:29
> 
> _Russian and Chinese weapons manufacturers are clashing head on within the international arms market as Chinas new fighter jet seems to be a cheaper imitation of the Russian original.
> _
> _The argument is threatening to put on hold a multi-billion-dollar engines sale contract between the countries concerning the delivery of some hundreds Russian-made RD-93 engines needed for Chinese-Pakistani fighter jets called the FC-1.
> _
> 
> _The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers.
> _
> _A source quoted by the Kommersant newspaper said there are significant price differences keeping the US$10-million Chinese jets much cheaper than a $35-million Russian MiG-29._
> 
> Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets  RT
> 
> Enjoy !!!




Whatever helps you sleep better anyway MIG-29 got TWO holes while JFT got only one


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## Storm Force

I have stated before that THUNDER was around $12-$15m each in price and this artcile confirms this 

Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets &mdash; RT

WHERE an earth do people get $25m for each thunder from ??? 

The first 50 cost $650m thats was stated when the soft loan was agreed in 2009


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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> I have stated before that THUNDER was around $12-$15m each in price and this artcile confirms this
> 
> Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets &mdash; RT
> 
> WHERE an earth do people get $25m for each thunder from ???
> 
> The first 50 cost $650m thats was stated when the soft loan was agreed in 2009


I dont know why do you always revolve around in the similar circle. AFAIK, JFT has a price range which varies from as low as 10-15 M to as high as 25-30 M. The price tag for Limited role varient i.e. A2G or A2A is much lesser than more potentent true Multirole varient. The point which article makes and which you are not able to get is that since the basic verson of JFT/FC-1 has almost similar capabilities as Fulcrum (which is also a specialized, not a true MR platform) is almost 30% as that of Russian platform. Like I said it before, AVIC has a distinct advantage over SDB or MDB in a way that AVIC's technological development is aimed to be used in different platforms, we have seen JFT's lessons making way into J-10B, J-20. J-20's developments making their way into J-10B,J-11,J-16 and J-11B's developments making way into J-10A and J-10B. AFAIK, I havent seen such thing in Russia, this is the very reason why Chinese are able to enjoy cost advantages, they spread their development over a broad variety of platforms.

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## Super Falcon

well Sir J 10 is only in papers nothing on ground since 2006 we are hearing that pakistan will buy J 10 thats why we reduced the number of f 16 from 70 to 18 now where is J 10 we got all f 16 but not single J 10 well i think deal was never existed it is only in articles


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## 21 Dec 2012

> this is the very reason why Chinese are able to enjoy cost advantages, they spread their development over a broad variety of platforms.


the chinese enjoy cost advantage bcoz they have pegged their currency at an artificially low rate than us dollars which allows them to manufacture and export stuff cheaper than anybody else.

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## 21 Dec 2012

> in some areas i.e. Avionics,EW,Armament they have matched the russians, in some areas e.g. AWACS development,UAVs,0* they have exceeded the Russians*, but Russians are still relatively ahead of Chinese in engine development.


oh really 
where?


----------



## fast and furious

hasnain0099 said:


> I dont know why do you always revolve around in the similar circle. AFAIK, JFT has a price range which varies from as low as 10-15 M to as high as 25-30 M. The price tag for Limited role varient i.e. A2G or A2A is much lesser than more potentent true Multirole varient. The point which article makes and which you are not able to get is that since the basic verson of JFT/FC-1 has almost similar capabilities as Fulcrum (which is also a specialized, not a true MR platform) is almost 30% as that of Russian platform. Like I said it before, AVIC has a distinct advantage over SDB or MDB in a way that AVIC's technological development is aimed to be used in different platforms, we have seen JFT's lessons making way into J-10B, J-20. J-20's developments making their way into J-10B,J-11,J-16 and J-11B's developments making way into J-10A and J-10B. AFAIK, I havent seen such thing in Russia, this is the very reason why Chinese are able to enjoy cost advantages, they spread their development over a broad variety of platforms.




Sir, So you mean I can race my Maruti SX 4 with an Audi A6.Sirf mehengi he toh hai.
Street racers of gurgaon be afraid,very afraid.


----------



## SBD-3

21 Dec 2012 said:


> oh really
> where?


I would appriciate if you would have elaborated on that rather than making a mere sarcastic comment.

---------- Post added at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------




fast and furious said:


> Sir, So you mean I can race my Maruti SX 4 with an Audi A6.Sirf mehengi he toh hai.
> Street racers of gurgaon be afraid,very afraid.


Price is a function of cost and seller's profit. Have Russians underchanged anyone?......or to be simple do you know whether their price in higher due to costly inputs or due to their price exploitation?


----------



## Manticore

jf-17 price range will vary depending on the avionics suite the buyer wants to meet its requirements-- i dont think paf will allow the latest avionics that they have, to other buyers-- i dont think the weapons cost, training cost, manufacturers' profit have been included in this number?

''jf-17 costs 15 million'' is a clever marketing gimmick -- as the cost can easily go to 25 mil if better avionics are added --- if they say jf17 costs 20-25 mil , it would have to compete with some used fighters market in that price range , it wouldnt be a good luring tactic would it?


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## Secur

GURU DUTT said:


> Whatever helps you sleep better anyway MIG-29 got TWO holes while JFT got only one


 LOL IS that what makes a plane superior ?  What sort of criteria is that ? 
The most simple thing " Pakistan Airforce unlike India doesn't have a very large area to defend hence there's no effing for expensive greater range and higher payload fighters "  Comprehendo Kiddie ? 
It doesn't help me sleep better but surely is causing someone Insomnia  Your post in desperation using an absurd logic just showed that ... Why dont you go and fight with the Russians ? The same people like you were very happy when Sukhoi spokesperson said that PAK FA will excel in everything !


----------



## GURU DUTT

Secur said:


> LOL IS that what makes a plane superior ?  What sort of criteria is that ?
> The most simple thing " Pakistan Airforce unlike India doesn't have a very large area to defend hence there's no effing for expensive greater range and higher payload fighters "  Comprehendo Kiddie ?
> It doesn't help me sleep better but surely is causing someone Insomnia  Your post in desperation using an absurd logic just showed that ... Why dont you go and fight with the Russians ? The same people like you were very happy when Sukhoi spokesperson said that PAK FA will excel in everything !



Actually sir its not owr problem but its yours because the thread is *PAF's possible answer to MRCA* anyway some pakistani gay broght MIG-29 to this thread not me .And on top of that you are saying that im *using an absurd logic* so my kind sir whats your point ?


----------



## kaykay

mmrca is now a $20 billion deal.....typhoon is comming


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

GURU DUTT said:


> Whatever helps you sleep better anyway MIG-29 got TWO holes while JFT got only one


 
a man always has one hole ...  tu soch leta kehne se pehle tou bakra nahi banta


----------



## GURU DUTT

kaykay said:


> mmrca is now a $20 billion deal.....*typhoon is comming*



No way Rafale all the way .


----------



## Mav3rick

fast and furious said:


> Sir, So you mean I can race my Maruti SX 4 with an Audi A6.Sirf mehengi he toh hai.
> Street racers of gurgaon be afraid,very afraid.



I don't know about your Maruti but a Skyline can beat a Veyron, if that helps.


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## GURU DUTT

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;2253209 said:


> a man always has one hole ...  tu soch leta kehne se pehle tou bakra nahi banta



Actually sir you dint got my point & are you saing those with 2 holes cant fight remember joan of ark &Jhansi ki Rani did to british .


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## kaykay

GURU DUTT said:


> No way Rafale all the way .


koi baat nahi yaara.....i will be happy in your 'khushi' also...rafale!..rafale!

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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> well Sir J 10 is only in papers nothing on ground since 2006 we are hearing that pakistan will buy J 10 thats why we reduced the number of f 16 from 70 to 18 now where is J 10 we got all f 16 but not single J 10 well i think deal was never existed it is only in articles


Well you have a reason to believe. But let you know if PAF had completely rejected J-10, then there would have been signs of fall back e.g. a larger order of F-16s, a new round of negotiations with Grippen Intl, Rumors about J-11B or an indication of enlargement of JFT order. I thik it was around 2007/2008 when we started hearing serious buzz about J-10 but i would rather look for a hint rather than believing in air that PAF has scrapped the J-10.


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## fast and furious

hasnain0099 said:


> I would appriciate if you would have elaborated on that rather than making a mere sarcastic comment.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------
> 
> 
> *Price is a function of cost and seller's profit. Have Russians underchanged anyone?......or to be simple do you know whether their price in higher due to costly inputs or due to their price exploitation?*




I agree totally sir.It can be either due to Price exploitation or Costly inputs,But you assumed the former.

Sir, if it was Price exploitation then they could have matched their prices to that of the JF-17,while competing in international markets.

Rest you are an expert if you think JF-17> Mig -29.We will agree to disagree.


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## Secur

GURU DUTT said:


> Actually sir its not owr problem but its yours because the thread is *PAF's possible answer to MRCA* anyway some pakistani gay broght MIG-29 to this thread not me .And on top of that you are saying that im *using an absurd logic* so my kind sir whats your point ?


 I explained it very well in my post ... Did you bother to see that ? 
Except for the fact that MIG 29 is a twin engined fighter which enables it to carry higher payload and increases range , the JFT can match MIG 29 in all other aspects whilst being 15-20 million cheaper ... Why would we buy a twin engined fighter ? We have a defensive doctrine and Unlike India do not have large territories to defend hence Single engined fighter does fine ... Understand ? And this wasn't said by me , It was MIG's Mikhail Pogosyan who said that ... and Obviously his opinions matters more than that of some keyboard warrior  ... Have a look at it again 

_JFT is "Extremely close" to MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan
_

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## Secur

_The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers.
_


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## majesticpankaj

Pragmatically there is no answers to MCRA because pakistan can't afford it in next 10 years

JF-17 is a cheap, untested plane with a made in china tag

j-10B is another over hyped plane especially on PDF which will take 5-6 years to get operational.

Period


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## Rafi

majesticpankaj said:


> Pragmatically there is no answers to MCRA because pakistan can't afford it in next 10 years
> 
> JF-17 is a cheap, untested plane with a made in china tag
> 
> j-10B is another over hyped plane especially on PDF which will take 5-6 years to get operational.
> 
> Period



All this obsession is not good for your health, if your AF is that super duper why are you trying to convince yourself more than anyone else. Fact is PAF has ways and means to checkmate any advance in your tech, watch and learn sonny.

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## majesticpankaj

Rafi said:


> All this obsession is not good for your health, if your AF is that super duper why are you trying to convince yourself more than anyone else. Fact is PAF has ways and means to checkmate any advance in your tech, watch and learn sonny.



I am not obsessed it is the reality

60 odd vintage sanctioned prone flankers along with 26 made in china jf-17 is a laughing stock


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## Rafi

majesticpankaj said:


> I am not obsessed it is the reality
> 
> 60 odd vintage sanctioned prone flankers along with 26 made in china jf-17 is a laughing stock



Why worried then, we are not worried we are prepared.  get out have a cup of coffee.


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## majesticpankaj

Rafi said:


> Why worried then, we are not worried we are prepared.  get out have a cup of coffee.



I am not worried that is why I stated the obvious -- I guess you should get worried.


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## Imran Khan

MMRCA kidher hai jisy answer deen?

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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> Pragmatically there is no answers to MCRA because pakistan can't afford it in next 10 years
> 
> JF-17 is a cheap, untested plane with a made in china tag
> 
> j-10B is another over hyped plane especially on PDF which will take 5-6 years to get operational.
> 
> Period



Oh the same nonsense again !!! ... Terrible waste of bandwidth ...


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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Oh the same nonsense again !!! ... Terrible waste of bandwidth ...



 if you have any counter argument please put forward or don't consume bandwidth

MCRA will finalize in few months-- we already have SU30 mki, mig 29 , mirage 2000 , jaguars etc..


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> I am not worried that is why I stated the obvious -- I guess you should get worried.


 Worried ? Have you purchased MRCA ? Taken the delivery of first aircraft ? Is LCA finally operational ? I guess not , then better not waste other's time


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## Imran Khan

all MMRCA threads should be ban till agreement sign


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## karan.1970

Secur said:


> Worried ? Have you purchased MRCA ? Taken the delivery of first aircraft ? Is LCA finally operational ? I guess not , then better not waste other's time



Thats hasnt stopped Pakistani members from talking about J 10 or the force of 250 JF 17 BlkII


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## Rafi

majesticpankaj said:


> I am not worried that is why I stated the obvious -- I guess you should get worried.



Why, I am privy to our advance - it is satisfying - your the one worried, on PDF - like I said if your AF was that super-duper your gens would not be that worried.


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> if you have any counter argument please put forward or don't consume bandwidth



and what was your argument in the first place ? Was it based on some facts rather than the same rubbish that since its Made in China then its useless thing LOL



karan.1970 said:


> Thats hasnt stopped Pakistani members from talking about J 10 or the force of 250 JF 17 BlkII


 hasn't stopped some trollers either


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## Bossman

Well as I always say your SUs and MRCAs are like Prithivi's battle elephants: big, impressive, 
slumbering, and expensive and our JF 17s and F 16s are like Ghauri's mongolian ponies versatile, 
maneuverable and cheap to procure, maintain and replace. The rest is history. In any case this discussion is futile because it will never be one plane against another plane fight. We have many more tricks up our sleeve. I don't think their planes will have airfields to go back to if they try a preemptive strike against Pakistan, that is if they survive in the first place. 

I am convinced that our best friends are Indians and their hubris which now seems to permeate their whole society. I would also like to ask what will happen to the MMRCA procurement if the EURO collapses?


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## Zabaniyah

GURU DUTT said:


> Whatever helps you sleep better anyway *MIG-29 got TWO holes while JFT got only one*



That is probably the most dumbest comment I have ever read on PDF. Perhaps in my life regarding aviation.

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## maverick1977

majesticpankaj said:


> No one afraid of made in china weapons... they are only good in polishing
> 
> JF-17 is a cheap untested plane -- what is wrong with that argument
> 
> And come on don't come up with JF-17 block 2 and 3 --- nothing is confirmed they are only on papers while we are signing and evaluating the deals.
> 
> Your F_16 are vintage and sanctioned prone. US had deceived you in previous occasion as well forget 1965 and 1671 ?




If i am not mistaken, the same chinese F6 gave hard time to indians state of the art Mig 21 during 1971 war.

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## Rafi

majesticpankaj said:


> No one afraid of made in china weapons... they are only good in polishing
> 
> JF-17 is a cheap untested plane -- what is wrong with that argument
> 
> And come on don't come up with JF-17 block 2 and 3 --- nothing is confirmed they are only on papers while we are signing and evaluating the deals.
> 
> Your F_16 are vintage and sanctioned prone. US had deceived you in previous occasion as well forget 1965 and 1671 ?



Your clearly worried aren't you mate, don't worry PAF will not attack indian unless provoked, there - get a good nights sleep.


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## Zabaniyah

majesticpankaj said:


> No one afraid of made in china weapons... they are only good in polishing



Yes, I am sure you guys really shined during the Indo-Sino war. 



majesticpankaj said:


> *JF-17 is a cheap untested plane* -- what is wrong with that argument



Define "untested". 

How can you enter an aircraft in service without testing initial prototypes? Are you implying that they should all crash on the first day of service?

And if you are talking about its performance in war, I can also say the MiG-29 is terrible because they were all owned during the Gulf War and the Balkan War. 



majesticpankaj said:


> And come on don't come up with JF-17 block 2 and 3 --- nothing is confirmed they are only on papers while we are signing and evaluating the deals.



There is a blk 2. 
An Update on JF-17 Block II ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS



majesticpankaj said:


> Your F_16 are vintage and sanctioned prone. US had deceived you in previous occasion as well forget 1965 and 1671 ?



Ever heard of the F-16 blk 52? I wouldn't underestimate it if I were you.

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## RockyX

Rafi said:


> Your clearly worried aren't you mate, don't worry PAF will not attack indian unless provoked, there - get a good nights sleep.



You will attack with JF-17 and J-10 ? 

If you attack, All will be destroyed in front of MKI. 

Even Mirage M2k, MIG29 and Jaguar will be more than enough. 

Rafale/Typhoon will be too big for Pakistan. 

126 MMRCA cost more than PAF total assets. 

100 MKI will be more than enough for PAF and we will have 300 odd MKI.


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> No one afraid of made in china weapons... they are only good in polishing
> 
> JF-17 is a cheap untested plane -- what is wrong with that argument
> 
> And come on don't come up with JF-17 block 2 and 3 --- nothing is confirmed they are only on papers while we are signing and evaluating the deals.
> 
> Your F_16 are vintage and sanctioned prone. US had deceived you in previous occasion as well forget 1965 and 1671 ?


 A cheap plane which offers capabilities extremely close to MIG 29 as the head of MIG said so no need to argue against the sun ... Ok talking about the present , do you have the MRCA at the moment ? By the time you take the delivery of the first aircraft , The PAF will already be flying with Block 2 JFT's  ... You say it like sanctions weren't placed on India 



majesticpankaj said:


> due you know the end result ? Karchi port was burned for whole one month


 In 1965 , 1/3 of your AF was destroyed so did anybody mention it ? Or you are just here to troll


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## majesticpankaj

Zabanya said:


> Yes, I am sure you guys really shined during the Indo-Sino war.
> 
> 
> 
> Define "untested".
> 
> How can you enter an aircraft in service without testing initial prototypes? Are you implying that they should all crash on the first day of service?
> 
> And if you are talking about its performance in war, I can also say the MiG-29 is terrible because they were all owned during the Gulf War and the Balkan War.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a blk 2.
> An Update on JF-17 Block II ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> 
> 
> Ever heard of the F-16 blk 52? I wouldn't underestimate it if I were you.



Zabanya--- thanks for coming with some sane argument

* You are talking about 50 years old thing... modern walfare has changed completely and don't forget quantity has its own quality which china enjoyed not the case with pakistan along with geography.

*Untested means it takes usually around 5-6 years for a new planes to see her full potential. e.g., f-22 still having issues. Mastan khan is a better person who can enlighten you on this for sure. 

*Even J-10 B is not out of the dock. How we assume that JF-17 will have AESA within a *given span of time*. well I replied this because some fan boys were claiming that it will be combo of typhoon and f-16

* again you get your mathematics wrong
18 sanctioned prone f-16 is no match of 150+ su mki


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## Zabaniyah

RockyX said:


> You will attack with JF-17 and J-10 ?
> 
> If you attack, All will be destroyed in front of MKI.
> 
> Even Mirage M2k, MIG29 and *Jaguar* will be more than enough.
> 
> Rafale/Typhoon will be too big for Pakistan.
> 
> 126 MMRCA cost more than PAF total assets.
> 
> 100 MKI will be more than enough for PAF and we will have 300 odd MKI.



A Jaguar? Now that's a exaggeration


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## Secur

RockyX said:


> You will attack with JF-17 and J-10 ?
> 
> *If you attack, All will be destroyed in front of MKI.
> *
> Even Mirage M2k, MIG29 and Jaguar will be more than enough.



Why ? Is it the same God's gift to Aviation argument again ? The same fanboy thing that planes start falling from the skies when MKI takes off 

Last time i heard , Jaguar used to be a ground attack aircraft not some fighter ... How exactly is MIG 29 more than enough when the MIG chief thinks JFT is extremely close to its capabilities ? Bother to explain ?


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> Zabanya--- thanks for coming with some sane argument
> 
> * You are talking about 50 years old thing... modern walfare has changed completely and don't forget quantity has its own quality which china enjoyed not the case with pakistan along with geography.
> 
> *Untested means it takes usually around 5-6 years for a new planes to see her full potential. e.g., f-22 still having issues. Mastan khan is a better person who can enlighten you on this for sure.
> 
> *Even J-10 B is not out of the dock. How we assume that JF-17 will have AESA within a *given span of time*. well I replied this because some fan boys were claiming that it will be combo of typhoon and f-16
> 
> * again you get your mathematics wrong
> 18 sanctioned prone f-16 is no match of 150+ su mki



Yes its untested , doesn't undermine its capabilities does it ?

Yes it isn't but it is being tested and considering the Chinese speed in doing things , it will be hit the skies sooner than MRCA winner delivers first aircraft

What exactly is sanction prone ? Do you think that they are blocked at all times and cant lock on to IAF ?  What kinda logic is that ? Last time i checked , we had 60+ F16's not 18 so get your facts straight ... and the last time someone tried to infiltrate the Pakistani airspace , they got locked over and had to return back  So ?


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> My pakisan friends always think that 50 jf-17 will able to counter 270 su mki
> 
> *JF-17 block 2 is again a paper plane
> *
> Su 30 mki is way ahead of mig 29.
> 
> yeah--- do you forget you were halved in 1971


 
Avionics testing has begun in China ... Check the JFT thread before posting crap ...
And who's talking about 50 JFT ? Pakistan has a confirmed order of 250 JF 17 to replace all its existing aircraft which may very well go upto 300 ... Yes it is , but JFT is extremely close to MIG 29 and the Block 2 coming with AESA and other goodies will surely give MKI a tough time ... By the way , we have F16 BLK 52 to counter MKI at the moment so no need to worry



crazzze said:


> must be from your good history books heard lot about them btw you were donning latest f86 sabres and all famous planes from us arsenal still showed so poorly........... go and pls check the details from any good war history archive


 dont exactly want to derail the thread or otherwise i would have posted neutral international sources ... I was just answering to a troll post by your fellow countrymen who had trouble understanding a simple FACT ...


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## Zabaniyah

majesticpankaj said:


> *Untested means it takes usually around 5-6 years for a new planes to see her full potential. e.g., f-22 still having issues. Mastan khan is a better person who can enlighten you on this for sure.



I didn't hear the JF-17 having issues like the F-22, which is a class apart and very advanced. It can be a capable plane.



majesticpankaj said:


> *Even J-10 B is not out of the dock. How we assume that JF-17 will have AESA within a *given span of time*. well I replied this because some fan boys were claiming that it will be combo of typhoon and f-16



It'll take time for the JF-17 to evolve such that it benchmarks the Typhoon. AESA development and full integration into aircraft takes time and money.



majesticpankaj said:


> * again you get your mathematics wrong
> 18 sanctioned prone f-16 is no match of 150+ su mki



The Americans wouldn't unless they conduct nuclear tests or actually use one against you, which is exactly what they want to prevent. So don't be surprised if additional F-16s are ordered by the Pakistanis. The J-10B is speculative at the moment.

Anyways, any Indo-Pak war in the future is unlikely. Both countries have time to look at their respective air forces, especially Pakistan since their economy isn't exactly in great shape.

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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Yes its untested , doesn't undermine its capabilities does it ?
> 
> Yes it isn't but it is being tested and considering the Chinese speed in doing things , it will be hit the skies sooner than MRCA winner delivers first aircraft
> 
> What exactly is sanction prone ? Do you think that they are blocked at all times and cant lock on to IAF ?  What kinda logic is that ? Last time i checked , we had 60+ F16's not 18 so get your facts straight ... and the last time someone tried to infiltrate the Pakistani airspace , they got locked over and had to return back  So ?



 I am not underestimating it's capabilities but you can't deny the fact that a aircraft takes atleast 6 years to achieve it's full capabilities and again it is made in china

I wish you all the best but jf-17 -2 against MCRA is too much to ask considering that we will be having 272 su 30 mki and 45 naval version mig along with upgrded aircrafts

Dear friends -- you need to contact santro to understand the meaning of sanctioned prone-- how many sorties F-16 can make without spares ??

I was talking about the f-16 block 52-- you have only 18 of them


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## RockyX

IMO, Biggest disadvantage for Pakistan - All PAF airbases are only 100-200KM away from our border. In full-fledge war, it would be very easy to target airbases. Even 3 Regiment of Brahmos is already deployed on western side which has 300 KM range with Mach speed close to 3. Even Phalocon AWACS with range 300-400KM and BVR Missiles can cover all airbases without even entering Pakistan in order to target any of her assets. 







As for India, Our many primary forward bases are more than 1,000 KM away like Bareilley, Pune, Gwalior, Chennai, Agra, Hindon. North-East, South bases are almost 3,000Km away. Even CBG will be 2,000-3,000 Km Away. With 2 Engine jets like MKI and MMRCA it would be easy to fly 5,000 KM with triple quantity of BVR Missiles vis-a-vis Pakistan.

PAF will always be defensive and can not match IAF in any case.

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## majesticpankaj

Zabanya said:


> I didn't hear the JF-17 having issues like the F-22, which is a class apart and very advanced. It can be a capable plane.
> 
> 
> 
> It'll take time for the JF-17 to evolve such that it benchmarks the Typhoon. AESA development and full integration into aircraft takes time and money.
> 
> 
> 
> The Americans wouldn't unless they conduct nuclear tests or actually use one against you, which is exactly what they want to prevent.
> 
> Anyways, any Indo-Pak war in the future is unlikely. Both countries have time to look at their respective air forces, especially Pakistan since their economy isn't exactly in great shape.



The essence of my post was jf-17 can't stand against the established platform that IAF operates -- su 30 mki, mig 29. jaguars. mirage 2000. they are already established and battle proven. IAF has conducted a lot of exercises to develop the platform.

U said it time and money-- we will be on the other level by that time 

America had sanctioned pakistan and india during 1965 and 1971 war . this is there official line. they get this plane because of WoT to fight against terrorists not against India.

I hope sanity prevails


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## Bossman

majesticpankaj said:


> yeah--- do you forget you were halved in 1971



and my dear boy you forget the 1000 years of muslim domination of India which created the deep rooted inferiority complex in hindus and your chest thumping is simply a way to compensate for such complexes. Go just read up on basic pscyhology. A little bit of history will also help. Nations with the biggest and best weapons have not always been the victors. This is especially true in case of the Indian sub-continent. You and your compatriots are falling into the same trap which led to that long foreign domination of your country that I just spoke about. Even the biggest superpowers have had their a$$es kicked by a bunch of semi-literate guys with an AK, few pieces of nan and a bottle of water.

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## dr.crazze

Secur said:


> Avionics testing has begun in China ... Check the JFT thread before posting crap ...
> And who's talking about 50 JFT ? Pakistan has a confirmed order of 250 JF 17 to replace all its existing aircraft which may very well go upto 300 ... Yes it is , but JFT is extremely close to MIG 29 and* the Block 2 coming with AESA and other goodies will surely give MKI a tough time *... By the way , we have F16 BLK 52 to counter MKI at the moment so no need to worry
> .


come on man thats a overkill jf 17 is a standard no nonsense plane *accepted* it can stand
jaguar( though they now have potent bvr but aircraft wise they are ground attack so...)
lca (can't say about lca mk2 heard they are acually making it eqivalent to f16 blk52 israeli source )
mig29 (to some extent depends upon pilot and ground realities )
may be mirage 2000 (though can't be sure after this new upgrade )
no chance in (pure tech terms of-course )with su30 mki and new mmrca ( anyone)


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## Bossman

majesticpankaj said:


> The essence of my post was jf-17 can't stand against the established platform that IAF operates -- su 30 mki, mig 29. jaguars. mirage 2000. they are already established and battle proven. IAF has conducted a lot of exercises to develop the platform.



SU MKI, Mig 29s have not been tested in Battle. Use of M2K in Libya or Kargill is hardly battle testing. Lets not even talk about Jaguars, they will be lucky if they get off the ground with a full load due to their power plant deficiencies. Also our nukes have not been battle tested and we would love to test them in a real battle.


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## majesticpankaj

Emmie said:


> Yar tu samjh nahi raha hay uss ka matlab.... Woh kehna chah raha hay PAF kya PLAAF bhi IAF ke aage kuch nahi aur jab MRCA a jaye ga tu sub ke aise kam taise ho jai ge..
> 
> Guys undoubtedly IAF comes at number 3...... Cant put IAF at number 1 because of USAF and RAF.
> 
> Now happy......



Seriosly PAF is no match but PLAAF is a different game altogether they have the numbers to act both offensively and defensively to target our assets and at the same time defend it but PAF can't enjoy the number game.

By the way .. thanks for appreciation


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## Zabaniyah

majesticpankaj said:


> The essence of my post was jf-17 can't stand against the established platform that IAF operates -- su 30 mki, mig 29. jaguars. mirage 2000. they are already established and battle proven. IAF has conducted a lot of exercises to develop the platform.



A Jaguar? Seriously? 

The others are all light/medium combat aircraft, 4th generation. They can be more or less capable.

Now generally speaking, heavier fighters like the F-15 and SU-30 are superior for air superiority operations compared to lighter ones. So that is a good bet. 



majesticpankaj said:


> America had sanctioned pakistan and india during 1965 and 1971 war . this is there official line. *they get this plane because of WoT to fight against terrorists not against India.*
> 
> I hope sanity prevails



They can still rely on the Turks with whom they have good relations with for a long time. PAF's F-16s are going to be upgraded by TAI, and some packages from the Americans. 

It was Turkey that helped Pakistan to enable its F-16s to be in the air by providing spares and perhaps helping them being more self-sufficient. 

You don't always need advanced fighters to counter insurgents. One can even kill them with Spitfires. 

America's decision to provide additional F-16s along with kits and permission for upgrades is to minimize the chances of a nuclear war going off between you two, because they already know that India has the advantage in conventional war. 

Even one of your leading media outlets reported on this. 
The Hindu : News : Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels


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## Bossman

majesticpankaj said:


> aa gaye na sahi raste per
> 
> su 30 mi and other aircrafts are proven platforms . IAF has done extensively exercises with many foreign countries.
> 
> Dude why do you forget the number factor ?? any problem with maths ?? we need only two good day to remind you 1971.



We know about those exercises, where the Americans were publicly making fun of the SUs and Indian pilots. Its on U tube, check it out. If you guys are so good why didn't you do any thing after the Parliment Attack or Mumbai Attack. We are still sitting on the hills that you guys supposedly recaptured in Kargil. Lot of hot air but no balls. All Bollywood fiction.


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## majesticpankaj

Zabanya said:


> A Jaguar? Seriously?
> 
> The JF-17 can stand against the MiG-29 and the Mirage-2000. All are light/medium combat aircraft, 4th generation.
> 
> Now generally speaking, heavier fighters like the F-15 and SU-30 are superior for air superiority operations compared to lighter ones. So that is a good bet.
> 
> 
> 
> They can still rely on the Turks with whom they have good relations with for a long time. PAF's F-16s are going to be upgraded by TAI, and some packages from the Americans.
> 
> It was Turkey that helped Pakistan to enable its F-16s to be in the air by providing spares and perhaps helping them being more self-sufficient.
> 
> You don't always need advanced fighters to counter insurgents. One can even kill them with Spitfires.
> 
> America's decision to provide additional F-16s along with kits and permission for upgrades is to minimize the chances of a nuclear war going off between you two, because they already know that India has the advantage in conventional war.
> 
> Even one of your leading media outlets reported on this.
> The Hindu : News : Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels



Again my friend-- jaguars, mig and mirage and tested and proven platform. JF-17 will take it sweet time to reach the maturity and *numbers*. In current scenario I don't think 26 jf-17 can stand against 120 jaguars forget about the rest of our inventory.

America has the ownership of F-16. Turks can't mess with US if US don't want-- it will put their future acquisitions of latest weapons in jeopardy. 

lastly, you have proved my point that PAF is no match of IAF even without MCRA


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## danger007

@Indians: my friends please accept we are inducted MKI and inducting MMRCA to counter F-16's, and mighty JF-17 block-1,2.... hope typhoon can stand against Thunders.


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## majesticpankaj

Bossman said:


> We know about those exercises, where the Americans were publicly making fun of the SUs and Indian pilots. Its on U tube, check it out. If you guys are so good why didn't you do any thing after the Parliment Attack or Mumbai Attack. We are still sitting on the hills that you guys supposedly recaptured in Kargil. Lot of hot air but no balls. All Bollywood fiction.



don't post offtopic rants... thanks


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## Ammyy

danger007 said:


> again JF-17 stuff.
> 
> a fighter which cost low than any other fighter and can counter mig-29 , mirage and su-30mki,but* still no customer* other than Pakistan.


 
No answer for for bold part and please dnt include Pakistan cause they dnt have any other choice


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## danger007

Emmie said:


> No, don't retreat.... PLAAF has only 100 Su 30 MKK and you have 270 (altho at present 130). PLAAF has only 190 J10 and J10 according to you are good for nothing still in experimental phases... Rest of PLAAF stuff is junk, right? I cant understand why PLAAF is a different game... IAF is good at tech. Baqi saray Aweeeeen.



Topic is about PAF not PLAAF.

---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 PM ----------




Bossman said:


> LCA - no customers not even IAF



We are not saying LCA can counter J-10, but some people countering MKI vd Thunders in PDF.

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## ramu

Bossman said:


> The proof is in the pie. The things are make you Indians tick are not important to us so your measure of success are not ours and that is why we have dominated you for so long and we will dominate you again. The only success you can tout is 1971 and it does nothing but give you guys a false sense of superiority, which will be your downfall.



And to this day you have not a single success that has changed anything on the ground. So let us focus on MMRCA and JF 17s instead of 1971.


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## majesticpankaj

Emmie said:


> No, don't retreat.... PLAAF has only 100 Su 30 MKK and you have 270 (altho at present 130). PLAAF has only 190 J10 and J10 according to you are good for nothing still in experimental phases... Rest of PLAAF stuff is junk, right? I cant understand why PLAAF is a different game... IAF is good at tech. Baqi saray Aweeeeen.



PLAAF has more than 2500 fighter jets... They are just below US and they enjoy big POCKET and strategic depth. War can't be fought with empty pockets

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## Bossman

majesticpankaj said:


> War can't be fought with empty pockets


 Taliban are fighting with empty pockets and are winning against a super power.


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## Emmie

danger007 said:


> Topic is about PAF not PLAAF



Tell this to your country-fellow who is arguing on Chinese tech.. Kindly extend your vision to other posts as well. Bari maherbani hogi apki.


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## majesticpankaj

Emmie said:


> But you said you only need tiny two days to prove your might... Its good for you to act now, take an advantage from the current situation in Pakistan... Dont eat popcorn its a high time to prove your might.



I said in case of a war IAF needs two Good day to clean you off... but there is a condition which is "good day" but PAF needs to be on his toes on each day. 

and why do you hate my popcorn. atalji said it very correctly "agar kaate ko kaate se nikala jaye toh kya harz hai" why should we burn our hands ??


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## Emmie

majesticpankaj said:


> PLAAF has more than 2500 fighter jets... They are just below US and they enjoy big POCKET and strategic depth. War can't be fought with empty pockets



Jo bhi ho IAF is best..... Jokes apart, isn't you who were criticising Chinese technology especially the one which J10 uses?


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## Bossman

ramu said:


> And to this day you have not a single success that has changed anything on the ground. So let us focus on MMRCA and JF 17s instead of 1971.



Thats your POV. Just being a threat to an enemy 7 times bigger than you is a success.


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## majesticpankaj

Bossman said:


> Taliban are fighting with empty pockets and are winning against a super power.



I can give befitting reply but that will be offtopic.. so be on topic

---------- Post added at 11:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 PM ----------




Emmie said:


> Jo bhi ho IAF is best..... Jokes apart, isn't you who were criticising Chinese technology especially the one which J10 uses?



I said there is a big question mark about the reliability of the platform until and unless they get matured-- which I consider a valid point.


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## Emmie

majesticpankaj said:


> I said in case of a war IAF needs two Good day to clean you off... but there is a condition which is "good day" but PAF needs to be on his toes on each day.
> 
> and why do you hate my popcorn. atalji said it very correctly "agar kaate ko kaate se nikala jaye toh kya harz hai" why should we burn our hands ??



Man if you know the tactics of AFs...... I am sure you know, the current fleet of PAF is ample to defend IAF strikes if it launches against Pakistan (with current IAF fleet)... Yes, PAF cant attack, thats for sure.

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## Manticore

show some maturity guys--- if one trolls with offtopic rants , just ignore him , instead of joining the bandwagon-- taliban , 1971 has nothing to do with this topic

thankyou!


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## majesticpankaj

Emmie said:


> Man if you know the tactics of AFs...... I am sure you know, the current fleet of PAF is ample to defend IAF strikes if it launches against Pakistan (with current IAF fleet)... Yes, PAF cant attack, thats for sure.



That is one of the valid point-- you can't win a war being defensive.

The real force multipliers are the assets which we having on the ground which keep the smoothing functioning of the operation.

we have some 60 airstrips from where IAF can launch offensive and can take out the strategic assets of Pakistan but pakistan can't do the same.

---------- Post added at 11:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------




Bossman said:


> I think you are having a bad day. Is it your dark skin? the size of your pecker? your skinny body? or if you are one of the great Indian success stories i.e. listening to Americans cursing you in a call center? or in America on an H1 visa working on $20K per year sharing your bed room with six others?. Man, take it easy. Go to the mandir and do some ram ram and don't waste the band-width here. There are no takers for your POV



Good one


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## Bossman

majesticpankaj said:


> That is one of the valid point-- you can't win a war being defensive.
> 
> The real force multipliers are the assets which we having on the ground which keep the smoothing functioning of the operation.
> 
> we have some 60 airstrips from where IAF can launch offensive and can take out the strategic assets of Pakistan but pakistan can't do the same.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Good one



Hot air nothing else. I think you like being abused. Please dont forget to mention the F35s you are getting from the US. If I remeber it correctly the last time you mobilised against Pakistan nearly a 1000 Indian troops were killed in explosions and other accidents without firing a bullet in anger against Pakistan.


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## Bossman

majesticpankaj said:


> U need to do some research mate.. I am serious-- u look like a hopeless case



Truth hurts and now you are off your high horse.


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## SQ8

*Off topic trolls will not get infractions, I am just going to ban them for two years.
So stick to the topic , smart alec dweebs who bring in 71, Kargil or so help me god Veena Malik will get thrown out of here permanently.*

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## Storm Force

Which ever wins MMRCA be it RAFALE OR TYPHOON x 126 is huge challenge to PAF from around 2013-2014 when the first sqd will be arriving direct from manufacturers. 

Has i see it THERE where 2 options realistically.

First was a large no of follow up BLOCK 52 (by large nos i mean 80+ ) from USA. But the relationship has soured badley and the co trust of both parties is at a all TIME low. 

The second was and is the FC20. Remarkable the FC20 actually looks like a euro canard Typhoon. And this will PAFs answer we all know.

But wat people need to understand is this machine is expensive and this is why the PAF has intially ordered 36-40 fighters only. 
if expense was not an issue I,M certain they would have answeredcMMRCA with 126 FC20 FROM THE BEGINNING. 

The capability issue is also unclear
Can a single engined chinease FC20 powered by a chinease engine live with twin engined euro canards
Is the chinease avionics radars jammers equal to the sophisticated european technology
Can the chinease produce weapons like ramjet BVRs meteore missle scalp and strom shadow cruise missles etc.

If im honest i dont think the PAF HAVE adequately answered the SU30MKI challenge as yet. = I think the small F16 force and new THUNDERS combined even with AWACS DONT fgive the firepower, endurance and flexibility of 272 MKI backed by 6 phalcons awacs. 

Like wise I think PAF will need more than 126 MMRCA to match to 126 TYPHOONS/RAFALE because of the tech edge amd euro maturity in their arsenal of weapons. they carry.


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## Bossman

Hot off the press. So much for castles in the air.

An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to the government.

The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after reviewing bids from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and France&#8217;s Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.


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## Storm Force

There rumours in india defense circles that INDIA may increase the purchase to 189 fighters from the beginning RATHER than 126 FIRST WITH A follow up in 2020 

Their thinking is to drive unit price right down with a HUGE purchase 

HENCE $20 BILLION DEAL RUMOURS TODAY

PS #

Rumours also that Typhoon came in at $100m each or $12.6 billion for 126 jets.

And rafale was round $11 billion for 126 jets


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## notorious_eagle

DARKY said:


> Next you can say the same for Bangladesh, Nepal and Sir Lanka even.. all had or have some or the other land or sea boundary dispute against India and India has never used any force against them so even these countries are an equal match for India according to your BS theory.



India is not using force against Bangladesh, every other day the BSF kills a Bengali civilian and that according to you is not force. Try asking that question on the Bangladesh section and see what types of responses you get or ask the same question to the families of those whom have lost loved ones. 

Seems to me that your memory is very young as India did intervene with military muscle in Sri Lanka under Rajiv Gandhi's. Thats a different story that India lost 1100 soldiers without accomplishing any of its tasks, but the fact of the matter is India did intervene with guns. India also sent paratroopers in Maldives during the 80's to keep Maldives interests aligned with that of India. Now whether she did the right thing or not by sending military force, that is to be discussed in another topic but dont you dare say that India does not uses military force on her neighbours. Clearly i can see that you are at loss of facts and refuse to accept any facts that is contrary to your way of thinking. So do some research before you blabber your mouth as you have made yourself look like a fool so many times on this forum. 



DARKY said:


> What Doctrine, Strategy, and Cohesive force are you talking of here all we can see here is that you are trying to match number with numbers... planes with planes.


 
If you cant answer that than its not worth my time to even post a response, clearly you dont do your research but still pretend to be an expert when your clearly not. You made a fool out yourself on the Brahmos thread and are making a fool out yourself over here on this thread. So stop trolling as we are getting deviated from the topic


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## Jungibaaz

majesticpankaj said:


> I am not underestimating it's capabilities but you can't deny the fact that a aircraft takes atleast 6 years to achieve it's full capabilities and again it is made in china



made in China? so what..... please elaborate buddy, you have issues with Chinese aircraft or are you referring to the usual rant about Chinese products....?



> I wish you all the best but jf-17 -2 against MCRA is too much to ask considering that we will be having 272 su 30 mki and 45 naval version mig along with upgrded aircrafts



Yes, I'm sure during war, IAF will move all of it's fighters to our border, we will line our jets up and shoot each other, one shot at a time, team with the highest number of planes and shots wins... 

very very naive view of warfare. FC-20, JF-17 Block 1-2 and F-16 Block 52 are enough to deal with the threat posed by IAF, together with AWACS. 

PAF needs not match IAF, all it requires is to deny the enemy air superiority, it can do that.



> Dear friends -- you need to contact santro to understand the meaning of sanctioned prone-- how many sorties F-16 can make without spares ??


not many... 

think of these as a stop gap, 18 F-16 Block 52s new and MLU.
They wont make up the bulk of PAF, they are good birds, pretty formidable, but given JF-17 and FC-20, PAF wont have to rely on F-16s as much.

With that said, i can say now that PAF made the wrong decision to go with F-16s, in hind-sight they'd say that too, but you are blowing out of proportion.


> I was talking about the f-16 block 52-- you have only 18 of them


I think he meant to count up the MLU too.


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## Jungibaaz

ramu said:


>









so these were the points....

Mig-29s against JFT
MKI against F-16 Block 52s and JF-17 Block II
MMRCA against J-10B and JF-17 Block II/III.

please elaborate your points, I'd like to hear what you have to say.


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## Jungibaaz

majesticpankaj said:


> Pragmatically there is no answers to MCRA because pakistan can't afford it in next 10 years


of course not, despite being cheaper you insist that we are broke... 
Was it an act of God that payed for F-16s?



> JF-17 is a cheap, untested plane with a made in china tag


any argument against Chinese aircraft or just the China tag comment?



> j-10B is another over hyped plane especially on PDF which will take 5-6 years to get operational.


in what way? as I recall, many developments from insiders indicated a high level of tech in the J-10B.
If the news about it is true,surely it's not over hyped.

not to forget how you folks cannot be the ones to speak, I've seen some guys comparing MKI to F-22, F-35, J-20, F15 Silent eagle... quote 'God's gift to aviation'



> Period



still no real argument just a bunch of baseless comments...
I invite you to prove me wrong.


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## Jungibaaz

RockyX said:


> You will attack with JF-17 and J-10 ?


PAF's role in combat would me mostly defensive, so no.....



> If you attack, All will be destroyed in front of MKI.



really? okay so an F-16 Block 52 would loose in front of an MKI? under most scenarios it's anybody's game, most combat between IAF and PAF would be under the max detect and fire ranges of both the MKI and Block 52.

Put AWACS in the equation and MKI's radar advantage is neutralized.



> Even Mirage M2k, MIG29 and Jaguar will be more than enough.



Good luck.... any argument to back that up or just pure poetry?



> Rafale/Typhoon will be too big for Pakistan.
> 
> 126 MMRCA cost more than PAF total assets.



Rafale and Typhoon will likely be dealt with by J-10B and JF-17's final variant.
again so far we cannot say anything regarding this but I'd like to know your arguments as to why you think MMRCA would beat any possible fighter of the PAF (future).

p.s. if you have a crystal ball and the ability to see in to the future i.e. about J-10B, please let us know, we are itching for info.



> 100 MKI will be more than enough for PAF and we will have 300 odd MKI.



60+ F-16 52s, Hundreds more FC-20 and JF-17 Block I/II/II and AWACS waiting on the other side, don't forget ground radars and SAMs too.






*Problem?*


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## deckingraj

Jungibaaz said:


> Yes, I'm sure during war, IAF will move all of it's fighters to our border, we will line our jets up and shoot each other, one shot at a time, team with the highest number of planes and shots wins...
> 
> very very naive view of warfare.



So how many planes you think IAF will use in case push comes to shove??? It is quite funny to think that PAF would pull all its planes to fight but IAF will not???? I don't need to bring all my planes at one go but every single plane in IAF will participate in the war...In the same token every single plane in PAF inventory will not be air-borne at the same time to defend PAk air-space...

You are seriously underscoring the number of sorties that IAF would pull from the beast like MKI's and the kind of pressure it will put on your 4 generation planes which are quiet a few in numbers....secondly a defensive Air-force does not mean that PAF job is just to keep IAF off Pak air-space....Look in the history and you will see that PAF used the same tactic of killing IAF numerical advantage by hurting the IAF operational capability....Missiles are on both sides so let's not go there....

Keep in mind that i am not saying PAF don't stand a chance...just trying to show that picture is looking grim...but then i am a layman in this field...so you may know much more than what i know...



> FC-20, JF-17 Block 1-2 and F-16 Block 52 are enough to deal with the threat posed by IAF, together with AWACS.
> 
> PAF needs not match IAF, all it requires is to deny the enemy air superiority, it can do that.



You got to have something out there which can simply change the battle in your favor...I fail to see what is that....it would be great if u can tell....







> not many...
> 
> think of these as a stop gap, 18 F-16 Block 52s new and MLU.
> They wont make up the bulk of PAF, they are good birds, pretty formidable, but given JF-17 and FC-20, PAF wont have to rely on F-16s as much.
> 
> With that said, i can say now that PAF made the wrong decision to go with F-16s, in hind-sight they'd say that too, but you are blowing out of proportion.
> 
> I think he meant to count up the MLU too.



I was under the impression that F-16 is your best plane...is it not the case any longer????

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## Jungibaaz

deckingraj said:


> So how many planes you think IAF will use in case push comes to shove??? It is quite funny to think that PAF would pull all its planes to fight but IAF will not???? I don't need to bring all my planes at one go but every single plane in IAF will participate in the war...In the same token every single plane in PAF inventory will not be air-borne at the same time to defend PAk air-space...



Just the reply I expected, do you know how an air force operates during war....?
the different roles assigned? There is no threat to PAF other then IAF, PAF has built up it's airforce with only IAF in mind, we can afford to loose all if it means we deny you air superiorirty, however if you loose too much, you have a much bigger and more powerful neighbor to worry about, IAF wouldn't be as daft as throw all it's got on PAF, given the scenarios, IAF would sustain heavy losses in Pakistani airspace. But PAF's role ebign defensive will also be heavy in terms of 



> You are seriously underscoring the number of sorties that IAF would pull from the beast like MKI's and the kind of pressure it will put on your 4 generation planes which are quiet a few in numbers....secondly a defensive Air-force does not mean that PAF job is just to keep IAF off Pak air-space....Look in the history and you will see that PAF used the same tactic of killing IAF numerical advantage by hurting the IAF operational capability....Missiles are on both sides so let's not go there....



No I am not underestimating that, I know of the Superior numbers, but given most scenarios, PAF is prepared for just that.
lets not forget SAMs and ground radars they play a part too.

and as for PAF's role, I said 'mainly' defensive, SEAD ops might happen as before. But overall PAF's role will be to deny the enemy air superiority.



> Keep in mind that i am not saying PAF don't stand a chance...just trying to show that picture is looking grim...but then i am a layman in this field...so you may know much more than what i know...



Now, this is the bit of my words that confuses people, they think that I compare IAF and PAF fighters in an open world with complete nothingness, no borders no range of combat, no other factors but the birds themselves, 

but if you put it into context with the likely encounters between IAF and PAF birds, PAF can defend it self, very well in Pakistani airspace.



> You got to have something out there which can simply change the battle in your favor...I fail to see what is that....it would be great if u can tell....



In your case MKI is bulk of the threat? correct?

Well lets just paint a scenario here....

F-16 Block 52 vs MKI.

Both BVR capable platforms.
MKI has a radar advantage (nullified by PAF AWACS)
F-16 has an RCS advantage (somewhat nullified by a good weapons load)
Range of encounters would likely be well within their detection and fire ranges of each other.

You can manipulate those scenarios the same way IAF and PAF would to get maximum advantage..... it's anybody's game.



> I was under the impression that F-16 is your best plane...is it not the case any longer????


For now, JF-17 Block II/III and FC-20 should change that.


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## MilSpec

Pakistan has ample resources and clout to procure chinese aircraft which will provide deterrence to most of IAF acquisitions. the onus is on India to maintain significant advantage by starting inductions on a *war-footing*. 

the most important aircraft in my opinion is the LCA mk2. If this aircraft project is sucessful, then MMCRA, MKI, SMT's , M2K's can effectively engage PAF in PAF airspace provided LCA mk2's are inducted in large numbers to provide point defence and forward CAS roles along with mig 27's and jags.

A successful N-LCA will also provide bigger strike advantage to M29K's by offsetting fleet defense roles. 

Along with MMRCA as a stop gap we should have ordered at least 150 Mig 35's. it would have provided a much needed boost in sqdn strength


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## MilSpec

Jungibaaz said:


> Just the reply I expected, do you know how an air force operates during war....?
> the different roles assigned? There is no threat to PAF other then IAF, PAF has built up it's airforce with only IAF in mind, we can afford to loose all if it means we deny you air superiorirty, however if you loose too much, you have a much bigger and more powerful neighbor to worry about, IAF wouldn't be as daft as throw all it's got on PAF, given the scenarios, IAF would sustain heavy losses in Pakistani airspace. But PAF's role ebign defensive will also be heavy in terms of
> 
> 
> 
> No I am not underestimating that, I know of the Superior numbers, but given most scenarios, PAF is prepared for just that.
> lets not forget SAMs and ground radars they play a part too.
> 
> and as for PAF's role, I said 'mainly' defensive, SEAD ops might happen as before. But overall PAF's role will be to deny the enemy air superiority.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, this is the bit of my words that confuses people, they think that I compare IAF and PAF fighters in an open world with complete nothingness, no borders no range of combat, no other factors but the birds themselves,
> 
> but if you put it into context with the likely encounters between IAF and PAF birds, PAF can defend it self, very well in Pakistani airspace.
> 
> 
> 
> In your case MKI is bulk of the threat? correct?
> 
> Well lets just paint a scenario here....
> 
> F-16 Block 52 vs MKI.
> 
> Both BVR capable platforms.
> MKI has a radar advantage (nullified by PAF AWACS)
> F-16 has an RCS advantage (somewhat nullified by a good weapons load)
> Range of encounters would likely be well withing their detection and fire ranges of each other.
> 
> You can manipulate those scenarios the same way IAF and PAF would to get maximum advantage..... it's anybody's game.
> 
> 
> For now, JF-17 Block II/III and FC-20 should change that.





I completely agree with the air combat doctrine you have mentioned, india cannot afford higher losses. 

IMHO, IAF right now is at weakest strength, and i dont see it drastically changing in next 3 years. 

just to point out about awacs advantage, i think MKi's are also complimented by AWACS which have larger detection radius and is integrated with m2k's and m29's as well. 

Now looking at pakistans acquisitions of j17blII and FC20, obviously PAF will get some serious teeth, but are these acquisitions to raise newer sqdn to add to the strength or to replace obsolescence


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## deckingraj

Jungibaaz said:


> Just the reply I expected, do you know how an air force operates during war....?



As said i am a layman in this field...but i strongly believe i am not stupid...b/w are you a veteran or in Air-force????



> the different roles assigned? There is no threat to PAF other then IAF, PAF has built up it's airforce with only IAF in mind, we can afford to loose all if it means we deny you air superiorirty, however if you loose too much, you have a much bigger and more powerful neighbor to worry about,



You are referring to China....Now let's get one thing clear...if i am in war with Pakistan then that is my priority...There is lot of room in geo-politics to take care of China, moreover geo-graphy too give us room to breath....Having said that let me repeat again to what i said....Each and every plane in IAF inventory will participate should push come to shove....If at all you are banking on reserves for China then you are making a mistake....



> IAF wouldn't be as daft as throw all it's got on PAF, given the scenarios, IAF would sustain heavy losses in Pakistani airspace.


No denying the fact that there would be losses....Heavy or not is debatable....If IAF is playing the role of aggressor then this is the risk they have to take....Danger is going to be same irrespective of how many fighters are going to be used...I don't see any sense of not achieving what you are after just for the fear of loosing too many....If IAF play with that mindset then don't you think we have already lost the battle????





> No I am not underestimating that, I know of the Superior numbers, but given most scenarios, PAF is prepared for just that.
> lets not forget SAMs and ground radars they play a part too.


I am not denying your SAM threat....However what you are ignoring is the shear number of 4 generation fighters that are BVR capable on both sides....Forget about which one is better but just look at the numbers....This is defintely not healthy gap....




> and as for PAF's role, I said 'mainly' defensive, SEAD ops might happen as before. But overall PAF's role will be to deny the enemy air superiority.


This is what i am saying....With already limited number of fighters not only you have to defend against massive number of sorties by IAF but also have to attack...means further strain....










> Now, this is the bit of my words that confuses people, they think that I compare IAF and PAF fighters in an open world with complete nothingness, no borders no range of combat, no other factors but the birds themselves,
> 
> but if you put it into context with the likely encounters between IAF and PAF birds, PAF can defend it self, very well in Pakistani airspace.


Sir, you have to make something as a bench mark.....I am not ignoring the important fact put in front by you...but border's, range of combat etc etc are not tangent...They are the same to what we had back in 60's and 70's....Tangent part is what technology you possess and in what numbers...no????







> In your case MKI is bulk of the threat? correct?
> 
> Well lets just paint a scenario here....
> 
> F-16 Block 52 vs MKI.
> 
> Both BVR capable platforms.
> MKI has a radar advantage (nullified by PAF AWACS)
> F-16 has an RCS advantage (somewhat nullified by a good weapons load)
> Range of encounters would likely be well within their detection and fire ranges of each other.
> 
> You can manipulate those scenarios the same way IAF and PAF would to get maximum advantage..... it's anybody's game.



You are right..its anybody game...However IAF loosing 18 MKI vs PAF loosing 18 F-16 Block 52.. who do you think will get the bigger hit???? Please understand not once i have challenged or claimed that our fighters are better than yours...All i am saying is that shear number of sorties that 4 generation planes will take from IAF side is going to be masssive...This is the threat that i am talking about....



> For now, JF-17 Block II/III and FC-20 should change that.


Ohh ok...I was talking about right now....Thanks for the clarification...


----------



## deckingraj

sandy_3126 said:


> I completely agree with the air combat doctrine you have mentioned, india cannot afford higher losses.


Which Air-force can afford higher losses???? Why would IAF be different from any other counterpart???? Look as said before the threat is same irrespective of the number of fighters taking part in the war...I fail to see logic in loosing the objective at the cost of keeping the losses down...Well i fail to see that if a higher number of fighters cannot do the job then how come less number will do???? In otherwords why even bother to enter their Air-space then????



> IMHO, IAF right now is at weakest strength, and i dont see it drastically changing in next 3 years.


If India is at its weakest strength right now then not sure how even in next 6-7 years anything will change...Are you saying the moment India will get her first MMRCA fighter we will master it and become powerful???? b/w why do you think we are weak right now??? Also weak in comparison to whom????





> just to point out about awacs advantage, i think MKi's are also complimented by AWACS which have larger detection radius and is integrated with m2k's and m29's as well.
> 
> Now looking at pakistans acquisitions of j17blII and FC20, obviously PAF will get some serious teeth, but are these acquisitions to raise newer sqdn to add to the strength or to replace obsolescence



Even if it is for replacing obsolescence it still is going to be a welcome step for PAF....A genunie 4 generation fighter act as a force multiplier...so it will add more muscle to PAF even if it acts as a replacement...


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## deckingraj

sandy_3126 said:


> Pakistan has ample resources and clout to procure chinese aircraft which will provide deterrence to most of IAF acquisitions. the onus is on India to maintain significant advantage by starting inductions on a *war-footing*.



Ample resources??? Man typically we don't agree but this is one aspect that both Indian's and Pakistani's agree that PAF don't have ample resources....Yes China do provide things to PAF on soft loans but saying that they have ample resources is too much of an exaggeration...

Secondly India needs to induct on war-footing just to off balance the massive gap viz-a-viz China....We don't need to induct LCA in large numbers to defend our Air-Space from PAF....Feel free to correct me...i am always open for constructive feedback..

Regards..


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## notorious_eagle

deckingraj said:


> So how many planes you think IAF will use in case push comes to shove??? It is quite funny to think that PAF would pull all its planes to fight but IAF will not????



The IAF needs atleast 2 or 3 squadrons stationed near the border against China to protect its flank and every sign points to the fact that IAF will station these many squadrons near the Chinese border even if a full scale shooting war breaks out between India and Pakistan. For its initial attack, IAF needs to assign its aircrafts into three categories: Air Superiority, Air Defence and CAS. As the IAF assigns its numbers into these three tasks, your numerical superiority will fade. 



deckingraj said:


> I don't need to bring all my planes at one go but every single plane in IAF will participate in the war...In the same token every single plane in PAF inventory will not be air-borne at the same time to defend PAk air-space...



I have my doubts if every single IAF plane will participate in the war, there is no way in hell the IAF can achieve 100% operational rate. For most modern Western Air Forces 70-80% is considered a good number, there is no way the IAF will be fielding 100% of its inventory in the air. Russian aircrafts are maintenance nightmares and are known to require extensive overhaul, this will slow down the amount of aircrafts that can be launched in the air as they will be going through overhauls. 



deckingraj said:


> You are seriously underscoring the number of sorties that IAF would pull from the beast like MKI's and the kind of pressure it will put on your 4 generation planes which are quiet a few in numbers....



The MKI is known as a maintenance nightmare and will not be generating a lot of sorties, you can mark my words for that. It can definitely carry out long missions thats for sure but there is no way it generate high amount of sorties. Once again the main work horse is going to be the M2K's that are known for their high sortie rates and easy operational requirements. PAF does not need 4th Generation aircrafts to tame the MKI, just the right tactics and the necessary force multipliers will do the job. 



deckingraj said:


> secondly a defensive Air-force does not mean that PAF job is just to keep IAF off Pak air-space....Look in the history and you will see that PAF used the same tactic of killing IAF numerical advantage by hurting the IAF operational capability....Missiles are on both sides so let's not go there....



No doubt about that, PAF will try to hit as many FOB's and bases that are within its range. 



deckingraj said:


> Keep in mind that i am not saying PAF don't stand a chance...just trying to show that picture is looking grim...but then i am a layman in this field...so you may know much more than what i know...



I actually dont see the picture grim at all, the picture is looking grim at the sea but not the air. PAF is buying exactly the weapons it needs to tame the IAF and rob its advantage. The force multipliers that PAF has acquired and constructing a proper C4I system is absolutely essential to rob any advantage the IAF at present enjoys. If you ask me, the future is actually looking bright for the PAF as these systems are acquired and put into operational use. 



deckingraj said:


> You got to have something out there which can simply change the battle in your favor...I fail to see what is that....it would be great if u can tell....



AIM120 Charlie cued up with JHMCS. Now thats a threat the IAF never had to worry about but its online now with PAF, they can target IAF jets from stand off ranges. In the past the PAF needed to get close in WVR to get a kill, now they can take shots from stand off ranges. 



deckingraj said:


> I was under the impression that F-16 is your best plane...is it not the case any longer????



Not till the FC20 comes online


----------



## danger007

Jungibaaz said:


> so these were the points....
> 
> Mig-29s against JFT
> MKI against F-16 Block 52s and JF-17 Block II
> MMRCA against J-10B and JF-17 Block II/III.
> 
> please elaborate your points, I'd like to hear what you have to say.



JF-17 Block II/III . so now JF-17 going to shot down Typhoon too. i think JF-17 should be placed before Typhoon and after F-35.


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## DARKY

Imran Khan said:


> all MMRCA threads should be ban till agreement sign


 
And what are your opinions about JF-17 bock I/II/III/IV/X/XX/XXX and FC-20 and Imaginary China Stealth fighter, Tipu, Taimur, etc. ICBM threads.

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## DARKY

Zabanya said:


> That is probably the most dumbest comment I have ever read on PDF. Perhaps in my life regarding aviation.



Don't understand whats dumb in this... a double engine fighter generally has higher T/W ratio, better climb, ceiling and kinematics performance as compared to a single engine fighter... even better electronics can be housed in them thanks to the better power output given by two engines... and here we are talking of JF-17 which have RD-93 a modified RD-33 for single engine plane while Mig 29 houses two RD-33s... which means it is as powerful as two JF-17.

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## IND151

JEFF said:


> IAF will not going for a F-18 rather it is F/A-18 Super hornets.
> 
> 
> 
> Setting of new infrastructure and associated is now a things of past and nothing but a old myth. Boeing has already collaborating with several Indian companies lncluding TATAs to develop Spare parts for F/A-18 SH.
> 
> 
> 
> When one have the legacy of operating variety of aircraft of Russian, European, French as well as Indian then I dont think above written is any big deal.
> 
> 
> 
> Even Price and huge cost per plane is now steadily becoming a thing of past, in current budget there is already provision for extra capital expenditure in the need of hour.
> 
> If one can shell out $1.05 billion for only 6 C-130 then MRCA deal is not a big issue.
> 
> 
> 
> India have its independent policy of containing its adversaries and it has following this policy quite successfully since its inception. Recent spicy statement of Indian Foreign minister to US of no need of guiding or Teaching India over its bilateral ties with Iran has already demonstrated this policy quite successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> How can they ban all exports of spares since all the spare parts including much tauted AESA will be produce in India under TOT agreement which has also got green signal from US then I can assure you that US would never try to do the mistakes of sanctioning spare parts with Economical prosperous country in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But china didnt caved in.
> 
> 
> 
> So banning of spares for PAFs F-16 translate you banning of spares for Indian F/A-18 SH?
> 
> 
> 
> But India know how to deal with in this very black market quite brilliantly.
> 
> 
> 
> This is an old myth, that will never gona happen unless IAF fallen in love with MRCA like MKI.
> 
> 
> 
> This is very possible regarding the sale of Patriotic SAMS from US to maintain the balance in the region but seems highly unlikely as far as sophistication of Patriotic as well as budget of PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> Only three squadrons of those enough to counter F-18, how does it so?
> 
> 
> 
> I dont need to go in detail about F-15, May be Pakistani members over here explain about viability in PAF fleet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best of luck for your exams.



very good post



> *This is an old myth, that will never gona happen unless IAF fallen in love with MRCA like MKI.
> *



i don't agree.

MRCA winner will replace not only mig 23 but also mig 27.

there is clause in MRCA deal that if IAF is satisfied with the jet it can order 50% more fighter jets.

that is 189


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## majesticpankaj

Jungibaaz said:


> of course not, despite being cheaper you insist that we are broke...
> Was it an act of God that payed for F-16s?
> 
> 
> any argument against Chinese aircraft or just the China tag comment?
> 
> 
> in what way? as I recall, many developments from insiders indicated a high level of tech in the J-10B.
> If the news about it is true,surely it's not over hyped.
> 
> not to forget how you folks cannot be the ones to speak, I've seen some guys comparing MKI to F-22, F-35, J-20, F15 Silent eagle... quote 'God's gift to aviation'
> 
> 
> 
> still no real argument just a bunch of baseless comments...
> I invite you to prove me wrong.



*So what is your point ?? Indian enjoys the overwhelming air superiority over pakistan

*China products especially are untested and surely not superior to it's western counterpart .. hack the even export engines from russia

*J-10 B is again not operational and again it will take time to get maturity -- by having technology and using the technology are two different things.. maturity of a platform is important.

*what baseless argument ?? as you people are poor in maths you forget the numbers and simply rants that PAF will take care of IAF without giving any solid argument and goes into defensive like PAF's doctrine of defence. 

all the airbases of pakistan are near to border -- you do not have the depth


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## farhan_9909

DARKY@

read my signature


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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> Don't understand whats dumb in this... a double engine fighter generally has higher T/W ratio, better climb, ceiling and kinematics performance as compared to a single engine fighter... even better electronics can be housed in them thanks to the better power output given by two engines... and here we are talking of JF-17 which have RD-93 a modified RD-33 for single engine plane while Mig 29 houses two RD-33s... which means it is as powerful as two JF-17.



Generally no.. that would be incorrect.. but true in the case of the mig-29 and Jf-17.
However.. it is not as powerful as two JF-17's.. It may have twice the engine thrust as a JF, but it also has a lot more to push around than a JF. 
Your statement for generalization may fall flat since the F-135 can provide a lot more power output than any two Ge-404's. 
The only possible truth for that statement may lie if we assume both engines are the same.
For eg.. it is logical that the two Al-31's on a flanker variant provide more power output than the single one on a J-10.
Although I wonder, with AESA radar's entering the field.. is that much power really required??


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## majesticpankaj

I have to say it

60+ vintage sanctioned prone f-16 + 26 jf-17 made in china jets is not equal to 150+ mkis

the scenario would be of 2:1 .. take your pick


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## IND151

farhan_9909 said:


> DARKY@
> 
> read my signature
> *I agree india will have edge over pakistan in quality/quantity of aircrafts/Equipments bt they cannot import pilots from russia/israel..*



this is my response

*i agree that PAF has superb pilots but can not import competent leaders from US/China.*


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## DARKY

Santro said:


> Generally no.. that would be incorrect.. but true in the case of the mig-29 and Jf-17.
> However.. it is not as powerful as two JF-17's.. It may have twice the engine thrust as a JF, but it also has a lot more to push around than a JF.
> Your statement for generalization may fall flat since the F-135 can provide a lot more power output than any two Ge-404's.
> The only possible truth for that statement may lie if we assume both engines are the same.
> For eg.. it is logical that the two Al-31's on a flanker variant provide more power output than the single one on a J-10.
> Although I wonder, with AESA radar's entering the field.. is that much power really required??



Roughly equal in JFT case....
Yes the single engine variant is tweaked to give better performances however that makes it maintenance intensive... every one knows what happened to Al-31 variants on J-10s...
And I did the generalization on the basis of same size one can always tweak the core temperature a bit...make larger blades and get higher output... but that makes the engine heavier and larger than the original one... use composites.. same can be done on double engine planes... 
AESA makes it easier to track while scan and scan and spot more and track then equally good thanks to many small T/R modules... however to track the longer ranged targets one still need a power AESA which means more power consuming T/R modules... at time an AESA consumes more power than the pulse Doppler mechanically steered Radar.

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## MilSpec

deckingraj said:


> Which Air-force can afford higher losses???? Why would IAF be different from any other counterpart???? Look as said before the threat is same irrespective of the number of fighters taking part in the war...I fail to see logic in loosing the objective at the cost of keeping the losses down...Well i fail to see that if a higher number of fighters cannot do the job then how come less number will do???? In otherwords why even bother to enter their Air-space then????



It's simple, Indian losses will be costlier, because we operate more expensive machines, simple logic. About PAF losses, there fight is to defend there airspace, so thier efforts are relatively easier. 



deckingraj said:


> If India is at its weakest strength right now then not sure how even in next 6-7 years anything will change...Are you saying the moment India will get her first MMRCA fighter we will master it and become powerful???? b/w why do you think we are weak right now??? Also weak in comparison to whom????



No, 4-6 years will see induction of LCA mk2, around 36 (HAL)MKI's, and around 50 additional, russian MKI's, 30-36 super 30 upgrades and atleast 2-3 sqdns of MMRCA, along with larger deployment of Akash and barak2 systems. If LCA mk2 project turns out what it's conceived to be, then rest assured for larger number of deployment will occur. This will increase two crucial roles, Ability of supporting multiple air interdiction strike packages and higher air defense sorties to secure our assets from counter attacks.

Look at the IAF current lineup, M2K , M29SMT and MKI's are all air superiority fighters masquerading as multirole strikers, mig 21 bisons have been the backbone for point defence role, LCA mk2 will take on this mantle along with forward CAS and point defencee roles.

IAF is at its lowest sqdn strength, if there is conflict tomorrow, and say china as a support to the PAF's war effort decides to just flying patrol sorties near the eastern border, we will have to divert our work force to the east, which will reduce the full potential to operate frontline strike a/cs. If say in next ten years say there are around 400 LCA mk2 to ensure safety of Indian airspace, our other platforms can engage the enemy in their own territory, hence success of LCA is very crucial.

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## DARKY

farhan_9909 said:


> DARKY@
> 
> read my signature



Kya baat hae sir G... I am your fan from now on....


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## IND151

blain2 said:


> ToT on AESA is NOT Happening. HAL will get the radars and they would put them on the aircraft with guidance from the US sources. This is the way things have been done with the Turks and Scandinavian countries and I see nothing exceptional being done here for the Indians...I think some of our Indian friends are getting a bit carried away by the US offer.
> 
> Having stated the above, IAF can, like PAF absorb US aircraft. It will take some more time but again its not out of question as they have always flown European aircraft if not American.
> 
> F/A-18 would be a threat greater than the Su-30MKI simply owing to the fact that serviceability on the Super Hornets would be much higher than the MKI and the Hornets are a much more proven MR platform than the MKIs. In WVR, F-16s are equal or better than the F/A-18s and with JHMCS on both, it would be about equal.
> 
> In the BVR arena, if IAF receives AIM-120Ds, PAF by that time would also have the same or even before the IAF receives them for as long as the relations stay as they are between Pakistan and the US.
> 
> On a side note, *IAF really have no idea what a difference an American aircraft would make. They are singing praises about the MKI now, but if either the F-16 or the Super Hornet was inducted in the IAF, they would start looking at the Russian aircraft a bit differently after appreciating the serviceability, support and capability of the US aircraft. Without a doubt, US aircraft are a better bang for the buck in the long run.*
> 
> PAF knows this well thus will be worried about the induction of the F/A-18 within the IAF.




true that US fighters are sophisticated.

they are very advanced and their maintenance is easy.

but Russian fighters have brute force: bigger radar, more range

also they are cheaper than US fighters.

so for quantity IAF will use mig 29, SU 30, mig 29 K

for quality IAF will use Mirage 2000, MRCA winner, super MKI( having ability to use western weapons), FGFA


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## IND151

DARKY said:


> Kya baat hae sir G... I am your fan from now on....



see post number 1149


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## GURU DUTT

IND151 said:


> true *that US fighters are sophisticated.
> 
> they are very advanced and their maintenance is easy.
> 
> but Russian fighters have brute force: bigger radar, more range
> 
> also they are cheaper than US fighters.*
> so for quantity IAF will use mig 29, SU 30, mig 29 K
> 
> for quality IAF will use Mirage 2000, MRCA winner, super MKI( having ability to use western weapons), FGFA




This part reminds me of a comaero between a german sports car(was cheaper,easy on maintanence &very powerful-in short a elegant &dependable pakage) & a lamborghini Diablo (brutish power,great stearing &very good sounding silencers in short-a hairy chested feel) & believe me lambo won because the buyers of this catagory are not much bothered about cost but that "hairy chested feel" so sir did you got my POINT, Thanks .


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## Jungibaaz

DARKY said:


> And what are your opinions about JF-17 bock I/II/III/IV/X/XX/XXX and FC-20 and Imaginary China Stealth fighter, Tipu, Taimur, etc. ICBM threads.



all I can say is....

Pak nukes were once imaginary, as were Block 52s, and AMRAAM, JFT was too, J-10B was once just a rumour.
I guess we can add more the DARKY's list of..... 'if I can't see it, it can't be there'

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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> Roughly equal in JFT case....
> Yes the single engine variant is tweaked to give better performances however that makes it maintenance intensive... every one knows what happened to Al-31 variants on J-10s...
> And I did the generalization on the basis of same size one can always tweak the core temperature a bit...make larger blades and get higher output... but that makes the engine heavier and larger than the original one... use composites.. same can be done on double engine planes...
> AESA makes it easier to track while scan and scan and spot more and track then equally good thanks to many small T/R modules... however to track the longer ranged targets one still need a power AESA which means more power consuming T/R modules... at time an AESA consumes more power than the pulse Doppler mechanically steered Radar.



What is the power input to a T/R module?


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## DARKY

IND151 said:


> see post number 1149



Yes I saw that... however I seriously doubt that a general PAF vintage has the number of flying hours on F-16/JF-17 in comparison to what IAF vintages clock yearly... i.e. in oder of 200-250 hrs/year.... while the elite squadron (don't remember the name clearly i.e. hawks/hunters) who flew Su 30MK have more 1200 hrs under their belt on flankers... now if they sweat more time in training... they have to very dumb.. If they aren't better than their counterparts in PAF... or PAF ones learn flying in their mother's womb perhaps... to become superior pilots.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------




Santro said:


> What is the power input to a T/R module?



Depends on the transistor used.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------




Jungibaaz said:


> all I can say is....
> 
> Pak nukes were once imaginary, as were Block 52s, and AMRAAM, JFT was too, J-10B was once just a rumour.
> I guess we can add more the DARKY's list of..... 'if I can't see it, it can't be there'



You missed the part so... don't jump in between.


----------



## Jungibaaz

majesticpankaj said:


> *So what is your point ?? Indian enjoys the overwhelming air superiority over pakistan



for now, but after planned procurement, PAF can hold it's own quite nicely.



> *China products especially are untested and surely not superior to it's western counterpart .. hack the even export engines from russia


untested? they are tested.... you mean battle proven?
no they aren't really battle proven but then again, neither are F-15 silent eagles, they must suck too right?

engine exports? no shame in that.... how's Kaveri going?
besides, WS-10 variants and WS-13 are ready. 


> *J-10 B is again not operational and again it will take time to get maturity -- by having technology and using the technology are two different things.. maturity of a platform is important.



It is..... but then again same can be said about lots of tech on the F-35..... must suck until it reaches maturity?



> *what baseless argument ?? as you people are poor in maths you forget the numbers and simply rants that PAF will take care of IAF without giving any solid argument and goes into defensive like PAF's doctrine of defence.


Yes baseless views.... in a scenario you painted with MKI, MMRCA, it falls beyond 2015, where PAF would have made necessary improvements to deal with IAF threat.

So unless you have a crystal ball or are part of CAC, I don't see how you can come to such conclusions.


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## IND151

GURU DUTT said:


> This part reminds me of a comaero between a german sports car(was cheaper,easy on maintanence &very powerful-in short a elegant &dependable pakage) & a lamborghini Diablo (brutish power,great stearing &very good sounding silencers in short-a hairy chested feel) & believe me lambo won because the buyers of this catagory are not much bothered about cost but that "hairy chested feel" so sir did you got my POINT, Thanks .



i meant that IAF will use mix of Russian and western fighters

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## Jungibaaz

DARKY said:


> You missed the part so... don't jump in between.



No I quite clearly saw IK's comment, smiled for a bit while reading through it, read yours and commented...


so..... what say?


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## DARKY

Jungibaaz said:


> No I quite clearly saw IK's comment, smiled for a bit while reading through it, read yours and commented...
> 
> 
> so..... what say?



smile a bit more.... and leave that to IK....


----------



## GURU DUTT

DARKY said:


> Yes I saw that... however I seriously doubt that a general PAF vintage has the number of flying hours on F-16/JF-17 in comparison to what IAF vintages clock yearly... i.e. in oder of 200-250 hrs/year.... while the elite squadron (don't remember the name clearly i.e. hawks/hunters) *who flew Su 30MK have more 1200 hrs under their belt on flankers... now if they sweat more time in training... they have to very dumb.. If they aren't better than their counterparts in PAF... or PAF ones learn flying in their mother's womb perhaps... to become superior pilots.[*COLOR="Silver"]
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------
> 
> [/COLOR]
> 
> Depends on the transistor used.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> You missed the part so... don't jump in between.



Well sir thats the basis of all the argument our esteamed hosts have.?
Anyway thanks sir for your very nice & informative posts ,thanks again .


----------



## DARKY

GURU DUTT said:


> Well sir thats the basis of all the argument our esteamed hosts have.?
> Anyway thanks sir for your very nice & informative posts ,thanks again .



You're Welcome my good friend....

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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> Yes I saw that... however I seriously doubt that a general PAF vintage has the number of flying hours on F-16/JF-17 in comparison to what IAF vintages clock yearly... i.e. in oder of 200-250 hrs/year.... while the elite squadron (don't remember the name clearly i.e. hawks/hunters) who flew Su 30MK have more 1200 hrs under their belt on flankers... now if they sweat more time in training... they have to very dumb.. If they aren't better than their counterparts in PAF... or PAF ones learn flying in their mother's womb perhaps... to become superior pilots.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the transistor used.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> You missed the part so... don't jump in between.



So..a galinium arsinede MOSFET??


----------



## deckingraj

sandy_3126 said:


> It's simple, Indian losses will be costlier, because we operate more expensive machines, simple logic. About PAF losses, there fight is to defend there airspace, so thier efforts are relatively easier.



Aren't you wrong in comparing the cost of machine here???? Cost of the machine is a very very relative term, no??? If my economy is good i can very well afford to loose a costlier machine then my counterpart....I asked this question to another guy let me pose it to you as well....Who will have a bigger hit if IAF looses 18 MKI and PAF looses 18 Block 52??? Even though MKI are costlier i think IAF will happily agree for this kind of loss...what do you think????



> No, 4-6 years will see induction of LCA mk2, around 36 (HAL)MKI's, and around 50 additional, russian MKI's, 30-36 super 30 upgrades and atleast 2-3 sqdns of MMRCA, along with larger deployment of Akash and barak2 systems. If LCA mk2 project turns out what it's conceived to be, then rest assured for larger number of deployment will occur. This will increase two crucial roles, Ability of supporting multiple air interdiction strike packages and higher air defense sorties to secure our assets from counter attacks.



Buddy you have ignored a very important aspect here...Induction is not good enough....MKI's were very well inducted before the Kargil war but they did not participate in it....guess why???? Also ou did not answer we are weak in comparison to whom???



> Look at the IAF current lineup, M2K , M29SMT and MKI's are all air superiority fighters masquerading as multirole strikers, mig 21 bisons have been the backbone for point defence role, LCA mk2 will take on this mantle along with forward CAS and point defencee roles.


Agree on this part....



> IAF is at its lowest sqdn strength, if there is conflict tomorrow, and say china as a support to the PAF's war effort decides to just flying patrol sorties near the eastern border, we will have to divert our work force to the east, which will reduce the full potential to operate frontline strike a/cs. If say in next ten years say there are around 400 LCA mk2 to ensure safety of Indian airspace, our other platforms can engage the enemy in their own territory, hence success of LCA is very crucial.


As said if PAF is banking upon support from China as a hedge agains IAF then atleast to me this is not a good strategy...What is they did not fly those sorties???? Then do you think we will go with our full force???? And if yes then how will PAF respond????


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## majesticpankaj

Jungibaaz said:


> for now, but after planned procurement, PAF can hold it's own quite nicely.
> 
> 
> untested? they are tested.... you mean battle proven?
> no they aren't really battle proven but then again, neither are F-15 silent eagles, they must suck too right?
> 
> engine exports? no shame in that.... how's Kaveri going?
> besides, WS-10 variants and WS-13 are ready.
> 
> 
> It is..... but then again same can be said about lots of tech on the F-35..... must suck until it reaches maturity?
> 
> 
> Yes baseless views.... in a scenario you painted with MKI, MMRCA, it falls beyond 2015, where PAF would have made necessary improvements to deal with IAF threat.
> 
> So unless you have a crystal ball or are part of CAC, I don't see how you can come to such conclusions.



*Tell me what planned procurement by PAF relative to IAF ?? we are inducting Su 30 mki along with mig 29 and up-gradation are already finalized. PAF is inducting mad in china jf-17 and rest is speculations.

*Untested means maturity of platform and use the jets at it's optimal level which only comes with exercises and experience. JF-17 is a new bee .. heck even china don't want to replace their mig series with JF-17  

* definitely f-35 will suck big time until it reaches maturity.. they will gain the confidence over a period of time .. don't you know US is upgrading her f-16 fleet ? I don't know that pakistanis are born fighter pilots 

* what necessary improvement I just want to know.. please enlighten us in terms of quality and quantity .. and please don't bring paper planes.


----------



## deckingraj

notorious_eagle said:


> The IAF needs atleast 2 or 3 squadrons stationed near the border against China to protect its flank and every sign points to the fact that IAF will station these many squadrons near the Chinese border even if a full scale shooting war breaks out between India and Pakistan.



No doubt about that fact...However that is what is troubling me the most...You are hedging your bets on China and India equation...What if they did not partcipate in the manner you want them to???? Anyhow these squadrons will not participate as long as we are able to achieve our objective which is controlling Pak Air-space...I don't see any logic of not using them even at the cost of loosing the objective...Keep in mind that we used our reserves for China way back in 71 war to achieve our objectives in East Bangladesh... 



> For its initial attack, IAF needs to assign its aircrafts into three categories: Air Superiority, Air Defence and CAS. As the IAF assigns its numbers into these three tasks, your numerical superiority will fade.


Aren't you going to do the same??? Today multi-role is the mantra...




> I have my doubts if every single IAF plane will participate in the war, there is no way in hell the IAF can achieve 100% operational rate. For most modern Western Air Forces 70-80% is considered a good number, there is no way the IAF will be fielding 100% of its inventory in the air. Russian aircrafts are maintenance nightmares and are known to require extensive overhaul, this will slow down the amount of aircrafts that can be launched in the air as they will be going through overhauls.


Well we need to bench mark something to compate...If IAF cannot achieve 100% operational rate then how come PAF can??? In short the number game is still going to be the same...no???? 




> The MKI is known as a maintenance nightmare and will not be generating a lot of sorties, you can mark my words for that. It can definitely carry out long missions thats for sure but there is no way it generate high amount of sorties. Once again the main work horse is going to be the M2K's that are known for their high sortie rates and easy operational requirements. PAF does not need 4th Generation aircrafts to tame the MKI, just the right tactics and the necessary force multipliers will do the job.


MKI is not a maintenance nightmare.....Anyhow we always had Russian Aircrafts...Just look at the number of sorties we performed in 71...but then if you can tame the MKI's with right tactics and necessary force multipliers then why are you ignoring the same for IAF??? I mean with right tactics and necessary force multiplier our so called 3 generation planes can also tame your F-16's and what not, no??? 




> I actually dont see the picture grim at all, the picture is looking grim at the sea but not the air. PAF is buying exactly the weapons it needs to tame the IAF and rob its advantage. The force multipliers that PAF has acquired and constructing a proper C4I system is absolutely essential to rob any advantage the IAF at present enjoys. If you ask me, the future is actually looking bright for the PAF as these systems are acquired and put into operational use.


Good for you...No doubt PAF is improving her sorry state....




> AIM120 Charlie cued up with JHMCS. Now thats a threat the IAF never had to worry about but its online now with PAF, they can target IAF jets from stand off ranges. In the past the PAF needed to get close in WVR to get a kill, now they can take shots from stand off ranges.


Isn't the same true for IAF??? However how many planes do you have which can participate in BVR??? Anyways first of all with nukes in picture i doubt that IAF and PAF will have a full go at each other....So in that context i think PAF is well convered but in pure conventional terms i have my doubts....


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## MilSpec

deckingraj said:


> Aren't you wrong in comparing the cost of machine here???? Cost of the machine is a very very relative term, no??? If my economy is good i can very well afford to loose a costlier machine then my counterpart....I asked this question to another guy let me pose it to you as well....Who will have a bigger hit if IAF looses 18 MKI and PAF looses 18 Block 52??? Even though MKI are costlier i think IAF will happily agree for this kind of loss...what do you think????
> 
> Buddy you have ignored a very important aspect here...Induction is not good enough....MKI's were very well inducted before the Kargil war but they did not participate in it....guess why???? Also ou did not answer we are weak in comparison to whom???
> 
> 
> Agree on this part....
> 
> 
> As said if PAF is banking upon support from China as a hedge agains IAF then atleast to me this is not a good strategy...What is they did not fly those sorties???? Then do you think we will go with our full force???? And if yes then how will PAF respond????





I didn't want to coment on 18mki/18 f16's losses thing because i dont exactly know the right answer to this, but this is my take
IAF looses 18 MKI and PAF looses 18 Block 52, Negligible loss for IAF big loss for PAF, now lets play with these numbers

PAF looses 180 a/cs IAF looses 180 A/c's, IAF gains air superiority, who is at bigger loss after end of conflict?

Now say PAF looses its entire fleet with equal losses of IAF, India becomes sitting duck for PLAAF

Even if India wins an all out war with pakistan, still losses will be more for INDIA, 



> Induction is not good enough....MKI's were very well inducted before the Kargil, Also ou did not answer we are weak in comparison to whom???



Agreed, but still with "successful" LCAmk2 and MMRCA and full sqdn of operational 280 mki's, IAF will be in better state than now.hence it is at its weakest now. weakest in comparison to required strength to successfully win an all out confrontation with pakistan, or to ward off aggression from china. We need to maintain force levels large enough to successfully conduct and conclude the execution of envisioned doctrine of Indian military against Pakistan, and successful implementation of defense against china. So Indian forces levels are at lowest according to its own requirements for execution of its own doctrines set for specific needs. 



> China as a hedge


prepare for the worst, hope for the best


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## GORKHALI

My point is Why PAF answer to MMRCA ??WE are replacing Mig 27 and some earlier Mig 21 models.
PAF Only creadible strike aircraft is F16 that also in Uncle SAM mercy..
They are good and looks happy with JF 17,what else they want? Enough to defend.


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## MilSpec

sorry for O.T

But all this bs surrounding MKI sortie rate is utter nonsense. i have worked on MKI for 3 years, and they have no maintenance issues...

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## Agnostic_Indian

sandy_3126 said:


> sorry for O.T
> 
> But all this bs surrounding MKI sortie rate is utter nonsense. i have worked on MKI for 3 years, and they have no maintenance issues...



i didn't get you ?
are you a pilot ?


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## Storm Force

su30mki has a unbelieveable sortie rate.

Its bull crap. THIS RUBBISH ABOUT service issues

INFACT ITS THAT GOOD that india have increased the order twice from 190 in 2001.... to 232 in 2005 and then a MASSIVE 272 IN 2007.

The IAF HAS TRASHED F16/52 from singopore and F15C from USA on its indian battle schools in Gwailor...

They have gone toe toe with TYPHOON in UK and even flew in USA. 

Its a formidable weapon system ... 

Besides F22 with its TVC engine its agility and AOA is unmatched its PESA radar is the best in SOUTH ASIA and it carrys french and israeli jammers and EW systems. 

TODATE PAF has come now where near answering the MKI threat. 

Even today IAF fields 150 flankers as we speak and todate ALL PAF has to ANSWER that is 33 mk1 thunders a relative small budget war plane and 18 top f16 block 52s.

THEY are banking an AWACS saving the day.

BUT AWACS CANT SHOOT DOWN 272 SU30MKI and neither can 63 F16s which may well be sabotaged or reduced in sortie rates by USA sanctions during a indo pak war time. 

" or are usa sanctions for spares " not likely to happen to pakista, TO ME USA is far closer to india offering billions in arms and trade and FDI...

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## satishkumarcsc

PAF's possible answer to MRCA will be induction of more F 16 or atleast a 100 FC-20.


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## Storm Force

to my PDF friends in any debate you can seem all is well on your side when in reality its not quite so great. TO ME you guys have several issues or concerns that are a MASSIVE problem long term.

1. You USA supply line is in jepordy during war especially with USA good friends india. They will not suport your F16 fleet... THATs GURANTEED.

2. Your thunder programme whislt great for replacing your massive obselete mirage fleet is ultimately a budget fighter. THIS means thunder is not in the league of india,s massive flanker fleet. the mki and even an upgraded mirage 2000 -5 or MIG29SMT will have the edge.

3. Financially PAKISTAN will not be able to meet the challenge of an arms race with indian massive GDP and budgets which is 
10-1 in india,s favour. AND gap is growing year in year out. 

FC20 will arrive but not until 2013 and not in large nos intially due to is cost... 

PAF will has always fight outnumbered BUT its the technology GAP that is growing with india injvesting in hi end expensive hardware be it PHALCON awacs typhoons, C17 globematers or P8 posideions. india seems to be buying far more capable platforms.


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## Storm Force

Satish 

The typhoon or rafale with REB2 aesa radar and meteore BVR ramjet missle will murder any F16/52. The falcon is 20 year old technology. Both MMRCA are high end tech. 

Nothing short of a AESA equipped FC20 with a new ramjet version of the SD10 BVR missle will suffice. 

AND PAF will need 100+ not just 36 planes which is their intial order. 

India is starting with 126 and 63 more to follow 

look at the mki fleet size.. 272


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## majesticpankaj

@storm force-- u have aptly put

F-16 block 60 with AESA radar which is a generations ahead of pakistani falcons is already rejected by IAF in favor of Rafale and typhoon. I don't see paf's falcon in such a small quantity is a threat


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## deckingraj

sandy_3126 said:


> I didn't want to coment on 18mki/18 f16's losses thing because i dont exactly know the right answer to this, but this is my take
> IAF looses 18 MKI and PAF looses 18 Block 52, Negligible loss for IAF big loss for PAF, now lets play with these numbers
> 
> PAF looses 180 a/cs IAF looses 180 A/c's, IAF gains air superiority, who is at bigger loss after end of conflict?
> 
> Now say PAF looses its entire fleet with equal losses of IAF, India becomes sitting duck for PLAAF
> 
> Even if India wins an all out war with pakistan, still losses will be more for INDIA,



Very wrong analysis...We won the god damn war and you are saying our losses are more??? If you are keeping in PLAAF in mind then IAF should not even think of participating in any war with PAK...No number of inductions can give you the kind of comfort that you are looking for....Keep in mind that in my scneraio we are in war with Pak...Winning it is more important than worrying about an imaginary attack from Plaaf...You cannot say let's loose the war with pakistan so that we don't end up as sitting duck for Plaaf...no????



> Agreed, but still with "successful" LCAmk2 and MMRCA and full sqdn of operational 280 mki's, IAF will be in better state than now.hence it is at its weakest now. weakest in comparison to required strength to successfully win an all out confrontation with pakistan, or to ward off aggression from china. We need to maintain force levels large enough to successfully conduct and conclude the execution of envisioned doctrine of Indian military against Pakistan, and successful implementation of defense against china. So Indian forces levels are at lowest according to its own requirements for execution of its own doctrines set for specific needs.



When you say weakest now that does that mean in the past we were well equipped to guard againt PLAAF and aggressive against PAF at the same time???? Look if you are talking about two front war or something like that then i am sorry we are not ready and we will not be till the end of this decade...As said induction is not going to help...you need a minimum of 5 years period after induction to master the plane...Anything less then that you are asking to be shot down by a much mature platform even if that platform is marginal to less capable in technology.




> prepare for the worst, hope for the best


You are right...But i am talking about the scenario where we are in war with Pakistan...Preparation time is over. Winning the war is the most important thing at this time...Also i am painting the same scenario for PAF...hedging on an intervention from China is not like preparing for the worst...no???


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## Storm Force

Pakistanis are banking on China threat PREVENTING a IAF full onslaught. 

Yet CHINA has no defense deal which auto assumes that china will mass on india,s borders. in a INDO PAK KICK OFF.

did PLAAF gang up during KARGIL ???? answer = no 

IF INDO PAK go to war PAKISTAN is on its own.. AND SO IS INDIA. 

And india will utilise its full nations assets to fight the war.

FULL ASSETS means every plane, every tank, every missle AND EVERY $$$$$ rupee.


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## kaykay

Storm Force said:


> Pakistanis are banking on China threat PREVENTING a IAF full onslaught.
> 
> Yet CHINA has no defense deal which auto assumes that china will mass on india,s borders. in a INDO PAK KICK OFF.
> 
> did PLAAF gang up during KARGIL ???? answer = no
> 
> IF INDO PAK go to war PAKISTAN is on its own.. AND SO IS INDIA.
> 
> And india will utilise its full nations assets to fight the war.
> 
> FULL ASSETS means every plane, every tank, every missle AND EVERY $$$$$ rupee.


true though pakistan will get some help from back door but that is it.


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## DARKY

Santro said:


> So..a galinium arsinede MOSFET??



As I said it depends on the transistor used yes a GaAs MESFET is used in AESA radars which have the ability to provide power output of about 10W in peak power operating mode... while average power is in between 1-5W.... hence a higher the power you provide the better range you get... that's why the same radar on a F-18 SH would have better range than what is used on F-16 falcon.... some people say that Russians are developing GaAs T/R modules with 15-30 W peak power out puts with average power ratings in between 7-10 W.... what makes the big difference here is the cost of such T/R modules you can add 10 million USD on your current JFT price today if Chinese installs an adequate sized AESA on it.... and that would be for Radar, Mission computers and software only.... but it won't be worth it since the same AESA on a more powerful plane like F-16 or J-10 would provide better results and prove worth spending.... perhaps that's reason why I don't see IAF going for Zhuk AE on the upgraded Mig 29s.


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## Rafi

The indians seem pretty rattled, means our deterrence is working.


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## Emmie

Storm Force said:


> Pakistanis are banking on China threat PREVENTING a IAF full onslaught.
> 
> Yet CHINA has no defense deal which auto assumes that china will mass on india,s borders. in a INDO PAK KICK OFF.
> 
> did PLAAF gang up during KARGIL ???? answer = no
> 
> IF INDO PAK go to war PAKISTAN is on its own.. AND SO IS INDIA.
> 
> And india will utilise its full nations assets to fight the war.
> 
> F*ULL ASSETS means every plane, every tank, every missle AND EVERY $$$$$ rupee*.



That shows you have no idea about tactics..... Keep that mind IAF neutralizes both PAF and PLAAF, IAF cant risk her assets for PAF only..



> IF INDO PAK go to war PAKISTAN is on its own.. AND SO IS INDIA.



Yes, no one will come to help physically but back door help will be available for both the countries.

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## deckingraj

Rafi said:


> The indians seem pretty rattled, means our deterrence is working.



Rattled in what sense??? You mean we are debating on this forum gives you an impression that we are rattled??? Do you think it is a weird logic???


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## Rafi

deckingraj said:


> Rattled in what sense??? You mean we are debating on this forum gives you an impression that we are rattled??? Do you think it is a weird logic???



Because you are trying to convince yourselves, a person with confidence in their capabilities does not need to do that.


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## deckingraj

Rafi said:


> Because you are trying to convince yourselves, a person with confidence in their capabilities does not need to do that.


Convince others???? May i ask what the heck are we all doing on a discussion forum if not to discuss/share our view points???? How does that means i am rattled???? For every single post of mine some Pakistani friend is showing me the other side of the coin...so does that mean they are trying to convince me which imply they are rattled by India...

Sorry sir...but your logic does not make any sense...


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## Rafi

deckingraj said:


> Convince others???? May i ask what the heck are we all doing on a discussion forum if not to discuss/share our view points???? How does that means i am rattled???? For every single post of mine some Pakistani friend is showing me the other side of the coin...so does that mean they are trying to convince me which imply they are rattled by India...
> 
> Sorry sir...but your logic does not make any sense...



It does show your rattled, if you were secure in your capability - you would not be showing this level of worry.


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## deckingraj

Rafi said:


> It does show your rattled, if you were secure in your capability - you would not be showing this level of worry.


well please consider it as my last reply on this particular topic....Answer my question raised above...what is the use of the discussion forum if you are not going to discuss??? How a discussion amount to being rattled???

Anyways let your rattled friend continue the discussion he was in...In case you have something to debunk his Air-Castle then kindly do so...Otherwise if you can please stay away from the discussion....


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## VSS

I am from Delhi and even in war with Pakistan I will be sitting comfortably in my living room. Because I know PAF can't reach here.. Can any Pakistani sitting in lahore, Karachi or ISB say that????


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## Storm Force

rafi these nos make indians sleep well

$1.7 trillion
$40 billion
150
3 

They are 

GDP, 
military budget this year
Operational su30mki today
Phalcon awacs


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## shanixee

VSS said:


> I am from Delhi and even in war with Pakistan I will be sitting comfortably in my living room. Because I know PAF can't reach here.. Can any Pakistani sitting in lahore, Karachi or ISB say that????


 
Bro i am from Lahore...my family has witnessed both 65 and 71 war....even then when ever tention got to the level many times during past years i could not find a single person gettin bothered of it...infact it was like a cricket match for them...your right Pakistan did not reach Delhi or Mumbai in both these wars so you hve no clue what the war is like...

but trust me this time things will be very different...

If anything happens now we will expain you in detail what the war really is....


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## Emmie

VSS said:


> I am from Delhi and even in war with Pakistan I will be sitting comfortably in my living room. Because I know PAF can't reach here.. Can any Pakistani sitting in lahore, Karachi or ISB say that????



Well, in point of fact no one can sleep comfortably both in Pakistan and India during wartime, not because of AFs but because of Missiles (possible nukes)

BTW I am sure no Pakistani would prefer sleeping during war, everyone would prefer to advance towards fronts for combat. I will certainly and that's for sure.


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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> As I said it depends on the transistor used yes a GaAs MESFET is used in AESA radars which have the ability to provide power output of about 10W in peak power operating mode... while average power is in between 1-5W.... hence a higher the power you provide the better range you get... that's why the same radar on a F-18 SH would have better range than what is used on F-16 falcon.... some people say that Russians are developing GaAs T/R modules with 15-30 W peak power out puts with average power ratings in between 7-10 W.... what makes the big difference here is the cost of such T/R modules you can add 10 million USD on your current JFT price today if Chinese installs an adequate sized AESA on it.... and that would be for Radar, Mission computers and software only.... but it won't be worth it since the same AESA on a more powerful plane like F-16 or J-10 would provide better results and prove worth spending.... perhaps that's reason why I don't see IAF going for Zhuk AE on the upgraded Mig 29s.



That off course depends on scale costs.. 
Chinese labor costs are fairly cheap, so material costs come into mind.
There is a particular DSP of US design but reverse engineered by the Chinese ..
The US original would cost me $45 in bulk.. the Chinese version.. costs me $8..
so that 10 million is a little extravagant.. I would suppose 3 million at the max.


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## abdulbarijan

VSS said:


> I am from Delhi and even in war with Pakistan I will be sitting comfortably in my living room. Because I know PAF can't reach here.. Can any Pakistani sitting in lahore, Karachi or ISB say that????


 Yes we can! you should remember the last time the pride of IAF (SU-30 MKI) violated Pakistan's airspace it got locked by 80's F-16 (P.S we didn't even had Saab 2000 back then)

Grande Strategy

Now its really funny that when some indian optimists talk about M2k (upgraded) and Mig-29 SMT upgrades cuz they have quite some time to go and will be complete by 2013-14 time frame by the time PAF will also have MLU upgrades and JF-17 BLK-II , possibly 18 more block 52's with FC-20's if the insider is correct...
then consider ZDK-03 with FC-20's and JF-17 blk I,II 
and SAAB 2000 with 45 MLU upgraded+18 block 52's + 18 more = 81 F-16 Block 50/52's
then consider near 100+ Block I/II JF-17's
and possibly a squadron of FC-20's by 2014 
and of course with ground support and C4I
This right here is one heck of a primarily defensive airforce with exceptional goodies and excellent pilots...
this right here is even before the MMRCA inductions start...
after that there is a clear road map for PAF,replacing all the older goodies with JF-17/FC-20 and focusing on the next big thing the J-2X or J-XX

Also in an Indo-PAK situation China will easily play a part , even if China doesn't attack directly or gives open support to pakistan ,even then IAF will have to put some squadrons on the chinese border cuz there is freaking big airforce armed with high tech goodies at the other side
Its better to be safe than sorry...


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## VSS

Emmie said:


> Well, in point of fact no one can sleep comfortably both in Pakistan and India during wartime, not because of AFs but because of Missiles (possible nukes)
> 
> BTW I am sure no Pakistani would prefer sleeping during war, everyone would prefer to advance towards fronts for combat. I will certainly and that's for sure.



I think you didn't get my point....I was talking abt capabilities of AFs. Here people say PAF is defensive force and will only fight in their backyard. However IAF being aggressive force will go for deep strike knowing PAF inability to strike back. Even if PAF decide to respond the same way...loses will be huge.


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## VSS

abdulbarijan said:


> Yes we can! you should remember the last time the pride of IAF (SU-30 MKI) violated PAF airspace it got locked by 80's F-16 (P.S we didn't even had Saab 2000 back then)
> Grande Strategy
> 
> Now its really funny that when some indian optimists talk about M2k (upgraded) and Mig-29 SMT upgrades,they have some time to go and will be complete by 2013-14 time frame by the time PAF will also have MLU upgrades and JF-17 BLK-II , possibly 18 more block 52's with FC-20's if the insider is correct...
> then consider ZDK-03 with FC-20's and JF-17 blk I,II with FC-20 and SAAB 2000 with
> 45 MLU upgraded+18 block 52's + 18 more = 81 F-16 Block 50/52's
> then consider near 100+ Block I/II JF-17's
> and possibly a squadron of FC-20's by 2014
> and of course SAAb-2000 with ground support and C4I
> This right here is one heck of a primarily defensive airforce with exceptional goodies and excellent pilots...
> this right here is even before the MMRCA inductions start...
> after that there is a clear road map for PAF,replacing all the older goodies with JF-17/FC-20 and focusing on the next big thing the J-2X or J-XX
> 
> Also in an Indo-PAK situation China will easily play a part , even if China doesn't attack directly or gives open support to pakistan ,even then IAF will have to put some squadrons on the chinese border cuz there is freaking big airforce armed with high tech goodies at the other side
> Its better to be safe than sorry...




Please show some proof of what you are saying from any neutral source. And you really think when IAF will attack it will do with two fighters. It will be a massive attack using whatever we have at our disposal from Land and Sea. 

Secondly....the worst thing you can do to your country is relying on other countries in wartime. Also keep in mind India's friend list is longer than Pakistan's


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## PakShaheen79

SF, Darky, deckingraj,kaykay,majesticpankaj!

So when IAF is going to attack? LOLz. We know how many MMRCA there would be, how many MKIs would be there and how much force mutliplier would be fielded... But let me ask you something. Back in 2001, PAF was in even worse state than it is today ( no awacs, no Thunder, no block-52, no BVR) but still we know the fate of operation Para Karam. Then came 2008, not even force deployment of forces on the border...All that hoopla of surgical strike ended at great laughter.... What i am want to ask is WHY IAF WAS NOT ABLE TO STRIKE PAKISTAN? 

Now please don't tell me that deciding a war was a political decision which Delhi didn't made. Because if that is your answer, believe you me due to the same reason Indian political leaders would not make a war decision in future too!

As far as MRCA is concerned, let the first squadron arrive in 2014-15 you would see a response ready.


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## Zabaniyah

VSS said:


> I think you didn't get my point....I was talking abt capabilities of AFs. Here people say PAF is defensive force and will only fight in their backyard. However IAF being aggressive force will go for deep strike knowing PAF inability to strike back. Even if PAF decide to respond the same way...loses will be huge.



If you guys are ever going into Pakistani airspace now or in the future, it'll be a real hornet's nest.

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## Emmie

VSS said:


> I think you didn't get my point....I was talking abt capabilities of AFs. Here people say PAF is defensive force and will only fight in their backyard. However IAF being aggressive force will go for deep strike knowing PAF inability to strike back. Even if PAF decide to respond the same way...loses will be huge.



I completely gleaned your point - If PAF was aggressive in its doctrine then I would have definitely mentioned it in the reply to your previous post.

I cant understand what makes you guys to think that a defensive AF cant defend her territories and will allow IAF to roam freely in her airspace. PAF follows a doctrine that defines purely defensive strategy, all her moves are in accordance to her doctrine.



> However IAF being aggressive force will go for deep strike knowing PAF inability to strike back. Even if PAF decide to respond the same way



Sorry I couldn't get your logic here..... When an AF is designed for a defence purpose only then what it has to do with striking back? FYI this is not an inability of PAF


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## Windjammer

VSS said:


> I think you didn't get my point....I was talking abt capabilities of AFs. Here people say PAF is defensive force and will only fight in their backyard. However IAF being aggressive force will go for deep strike knowing PAF inability to strike back. Even if PAF decide to respond the same way...loses will be huge.


The PAF strategy is defensive/offence..... more losses are always suffered by the attacking force. In a full blown war, PAF will not merely fight in it's back yard rather it will strive to take the war to it's enemy. And what makes you think that the strikes will only be conducted by aircrafts....ballistic and cruise missiles have now added a new dimension to any future war.


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## danger007

abdulbarijan said:


> Yes we can! you should remember the last time the pride of IAF (SU-30 MKI) violated Pakistan's airspace it got locked by 80's F-16 (P.S we didn't even had Saab 2000 back then)
> 
> Grande Strategy
> 
> Now its really funny that when some indian optimists talk about M2k (upgraded) and Mig-29 SMT upgrades cuz they have quite some time to go and will be complete by 2013-14 time frame by the time PAF will also have MLU upgrades and JF-17 BLK-II , possibly 18 more block 52's with FC-20's if the insider is correct...
> then consider ZDK-03 with FC-20's and JF-17 blk I,II
> and SAAB 2000 with 45 MLU upgraded+18 block 52's + 18 more = 81 F-16 Block 50/52's
> then consider near 100+ Block I/II JF-17's
> and possibly a squadron of FC-20's by 2014
> and of course with ground support and C4I
> This right here is one heck of a primarily defensive airforce with exceptional goodies and excellent pilots...
> this right here is even before the MMRCA inductions start...
> after that there is a clear road map for PAF,replacing all the older goodies with JF-17/FC-20 and focusing on the next big thing the J-2X or J-XX
> 
> Also in an Indo-PAK situation China will easily play a part , even if China doesn't attack directly or gives open support to pakistan ,even then IAF will have to put some squadrons on the chinese border cuz there is freaking big airforce armed with high tech goodies at the other side
> Its better to be safe than sorry...


 

Again ... provide source else stop talking BS.

---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

in that time PAF F-16's doesn't have BVR capabilities but MKI.  lol

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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> Yes we can! you should remember the last time the pride of IAF (SU-30 MKI) violated Pakistan's airspace it got locked by 80's F-16 (P.S we didn't even had Saab 2000 back then)
> 
> Grande Strategy
> 
> Now its really funny that when some indian optimists talk about M2k (upgraded) and Mig-29 SMT upgrades cuz they have quite some time to go and will be complete by 2013-14 time frame by the time PAF will also have MLU upgrades and JF-17 BLK-II , possibly 18 more block 52's with FC-20's if the insider is correct...
> then consider ZDK-03 with FC-20's and JF-17 blk I,II
> and SAAB 2000 with 45 MLU upgraded+18 block 52's + 18 more = 81 F-16 Block 50/52's
> then consider near 100+ Block I/II JF-17's
> and possibly a squadron of FC-20's by 2014
> and of course with ground support and C4I
> This right here is one heck of a primarily defensive airforce with exceptional goodies and excellent pilots...
> this right here is even before the MMRCA inductions start...
> after that there is a clear road map for PAF,replacing all the older goodies with JF-17/FC-20 and focusing on the next big thing the J-2X or J-XX
> 
> Also in an Indo-PAK situation China will easily play a part , even if China doesn't attack directly or gives open support to pakistan ,even then IAF will have to put some squadrons on the chinese border cuz there is freaking big airforce armed with high tech goodies at the other side
> Its better to be safe than sorry...



another fanboyish stuff from our friends-- mere speculation on the procurement of jets -- no substantiated proof of most of the things 

India will take time to procure the jets but for pakistan it is just like making cookies-- jf-17 block 2 (a combo of typhoon and f-16 ) will come out in numbers in 2-3 years

where the boyz you were saying that 50 thunders will be delivers in 6 months ?? 

If you guys need to understand the difficulty of procurement process-- let me give an example
India will sign the MCRA in next 2-3 years but expected delivery of first batch is august 2015 , although both the aircraft have established capacities. this shows how much time it takes to get high end products.


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## abdulbarijan

VSS said:


> Please show some proof of what you are saying from any neutral source. And you really think when IAF will attack it will do with two fighters. It will be a massive attack using whatever we have at our disposal from Land and Sea.
> 
> Secondly....the worst thing you can do to your country is relying on other countries in wartime. Also keep in mind India's friend list is longer than Pakistan's



nah its up to u to believe the link or not cuz im just too lazy to find another link...
ok lets consider a massive attack...IMO that cant happen not with the deterrent of nukes and a state of the art missile system which is growing rapidly...
also with the nuclear threshold now lowered (thanks to Nasr)
thats not the point even if you have such a big friend list you dont have a all weathered ally with such a military which has a border with Pakistan now do u..
and Pakistan wouldn't actually be relying,it will be IAF's steps to make sure that PLAAF doesn't make a back door entry...

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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> nah its up to u to believe the link or not cuz im just too lazy to find another link...
> ok lets consider a massive attack...IMO that cant happen not with the deterrent of nukes and a state of the art missile system which is growing rapidly...
> also with the nuclear threshold now lowered (thanks to Nasr)
> thats not the point even if you have such a big friend list you dont have a all weathered ally with such a military which has a border with Pakistan now do u..
> and Pakistan wouldn't actually be relying,it will be IAF's steps to make sure that PLAAF doesn't make a back door entry...



when did the last time china helped you during war ??


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## danger007

@Indian friends: ignore this fanboy abdulbarijan statements...


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> when did the last time china helped you during war ??



tell me something mahraj.. how would have a certain war gone had China not supplied free jets and artillery?

Did American soldier fight on the front line in the arab ISraeli war?


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> tell me something mahraj.. how would have a certain war gone had China not supplied free jets and artillery?
> 
> Did American soldier fight on the front line in the arab ISraeli war?



Dear sir, When was the last time china participated in a pakistan's war against India ? 

Few fanboy are betting their hedge on PLAAF intervention whose chances are nil. Face the reality-- you have to face the music alone


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> another fanboyish stuff from our friends-- mere speculation on the procurement of jets -- no substantiated proof of most of the things


Well Im one of the few ones that actually say that I am a fan boy and the reason I come here is to get knowledge through debates etc at the end of the day you just end up being the drive for more knowledge so thanks for that favor.. 


> India will take time to procure the jets but for pakistan it is just like making cookies-- jf-17 block 2 (a combo of typhoon and f-16 ) will come out in numbers in 2-3 years



considering PAC is already producing the JF-17 and we have 33-36 as of now,26 of which were produced by PAC,the first one was rolled out in November of 2009 after two years we have a rate of 13 A/C per year for PAC
What if chinese come in to the picture that is what gets one intrigued,If PAC can produce 13 a/c per year than China combined can sure as hell produce 40 atleast a year..Now optimists are every where some did say that 50 would be delivered by 6 months which is hard to believe and i personally believed the time frame to be likely 1-1.5 years but still just look at the last 3 years and what PAF got...
27 JF-17's.
18 F-16 block 50/52
SAAB 2000
ZDK-03 (will/or already has arrived this year)
IL-78
so considering the fact that PT-06 was there from 2006,SBP JFT's were delivered in march 2008,and just two serial production JFT's in 2009,that still leaves 2-3 years for work on advancing the jet further...




> where the boyz you were saying that 50 thunders will be delivers in 6 months ??


These guys are every where eg. there is something called the LCA which according to some was currently supposed to have replace the Mig-21's but instead its having problems and has postponed FOC by 1 more year to December 2013



> If you guys need to understand the difficulty of procurement process-- let me give an example
> India will sign the MCRA in next 2-3 years but expected delivery of first batch is august 2015 , although both the aircraft have established capacities. this shows how much time it takes to get high end products.


like I said just take a look at what PAF has gone through in the last 3 years you will get the answer..


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> Dear sir, When was the last time china participated in a pakistan's war against India ?
> 
> Few fanboy are betting their hedge on PLAAF intervention whose chances are nil. Face the reality-- you have to face the music alone



Those people are fanboys, those getting excited over fanboys are also fanboys.

China intervention in an Indo-Pak war would be limited to emergency weapons supply.
Tell me, if somebody gives you a gun to use against your enemy.. is that not participation?
Or do you have some other name for it.. do tell.


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> Those people are fanboys, those getting excited over fanboys are also fanboys.
> 
> China intervention in an Indo-Pak war would be limited to emergency weapons supply.
> Tell me, if somebody gives you a gun to use against your enemy.. is that not participation?
> Or do you have some other name for it.. do tell.



Santro, If you have read above most I have never denied that china won't help pakistan in case of a war but you rightly said in terms of supply only but few pakistanis friends believe that PLAAF will come into picture from north- eastern front and india has to divert her forces there also is merely a wishful thinking. 

In case of a war India will attack with her full force on western front.


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> Santro, If you have read above most I have never denied that china won't help pakistan in case of a war but you rightly said in terms of supply only but few pakistanis friends believe that PLAAF will come into picture from north- eastern front and india has to divert her forces there also is merely a wishful thinking.
> 
> In case of a war India will attack with her full force on western front.



Let me put this clear..If Pakistan goes to war with India,China will NOT step in.. If China goes to war with India.. Pakistan will leave no time to exploit the opportunity to get Kashmir or else..
India has 80% of its military infrastructure aimed at Pakistan, where else would it use its force??? Indian military planners have only recently woken to the thought of a Chinese threat.
and lets not discuss war scenario's further.. rather the change in PAF doctrine and Order of Battle needed to counter the induction of the MMCRA...


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> Well Im one of the few ones that actually say that I am a fan boy and the reason I come here is to get knowledge through debates etc at the end of the day you just end up being the drive for more knowledge so thanks for that favor..
> 
> 
> considering PAC is already producing the JF-17 and we have 33-36 as of now,26 of which were produced by PAC,the first one was rolled out in November of 2009 after two years we have a rate of 13 A/C per year for PAC
> What if chinese come in to the picture that is what gets one intrigued,If PAC can produce 13 a/c per year than China combined can sure as hell produce 40 atleast a year..Now optimists are every where some did say that 50 would be delivered by 6 months which is hard to believe and i personally believed the time frame to be likely 1-1.5 years but still just look at the last 3 years and what PAF got...
> 27 JF-17's.
> 18 F-16 block 50/52
> SAAB 2000
> ZDK-03 (will/or already has arrived this year)
> IL-78
> so considering the fact that PT-06 was there from 2006,SBP JFT's were delivered in march 2008,and just two serial production JFT's in 2009,that still leaves 2-3 years for work on advancing the jet further...
> 
> 
> 
> These guys are every where eg. there is something called the LCA which according to some was currently supposed to have replace the Mig-21's but instead its having problems and has postponed FOC by 1 more year to December 2014
> 
> 
> like I said just take a look at what PAF has gone through in the last 3 years you will get the answer..



Thanks for bringing some maturity in your argument

The problem with your argument is there is lots of ifs and buts 

even china can't produce with a rate you are talking about. I have simply give you an example of MCRA that it will also take full 4 years to get first batch. a lot of *testing and compatibility* tests have to done to get them operational on the field. It is not like assembling a PC.

do you still believe pakistan would get 18 f-16 from US. do you even know the cost of your previous purchase ? a fragile economy like pakistan can't afford it. 

* agreed on LCA part but it dec 2013. 

* again my friend don't feed us with speculations.


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> Santro, If you have read above most I have never denied that china won't help pakistan in case of a war but you rightly said in terms of supply only but few pakistanis friends believe that PLAAF will come into picture from north- eastern front and india has to divert her forces there also is merely a wishful thinking.
> 
> In case of a war India will attack with her full force on western front.




Check out the reply and the context 


abdulbarijan said:


> Also in an Indo-PAK situation China will easily play a part , *even if China doesn't attack directly or gives open support to pakistan ,even then IAF will have to put some squadrons on the chinese border cuz there is freaking big airforce armed with high tech goodies at the other side
> Its better to be safe than sorry*
> 
> "and Pakistan wouldn't actually be relying,it will be *IAF's steps to make sure* that PLAAF doesn't make a back door entry..."

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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> Let me put this clear..If Pakistan goes to war with India,China will NOT step in.. If China goes to war with India.. Pakistan will leave no time to exploit the opportunity to get Kashmir or else..
> India has 80% of its military infrastructure aimed at Pakistan, where else would it use its force??? Indian military planners have only recently woken to the thought of a Chinese threat.
> and lets not discuss war scenario's further.. rather the change in PAF doctrine and Order of Battle needed to counter the induction of the MMCRA...



santro, I think we both agree that PLAAF won't come into picture in case of indo-pak war.

apart from speculation can you tell us the future procurement planning (next 4-5 years) of PAF to counter the mcra threat ? thnaks

---------- Post added at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 AM ----------




abdulbarijan said:


> Check out the reply and the context



the context has been created by you not by us. You are assuming that IAF will divert her asset because of PLAAF fear in case of a war with Pakistan. I simply said that China will only supply you goodies nothing else. they won't fought for you.


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## Manticore

there are already a couple of hypothetical air battle threads in the mil. aviation section please dont make this thread as one of those

we dont know which fighter india chooses, we dont know what the specs and numbers the paf j10b will have , we are still speculating if the blk52/mlu f16s will go more than 66

all i see here is that iaf has/will have double engined 4.75 generation fighters vs paf will/has single engined 4.5 generation fighters which eventhough will be specialized in precision attack , would not be able to make a dent in indian airspace as chinese tech is unproven 

WE GET IT--- dont repeat this same speculative mantra all over again

iaf has openly placed the bid and the its requirements [how many years now?]-- its been some months since 2 fighters were finalized into the second phase---- the more years the iaf is taking to induct the mmrca, actually is giving time for the jft blk2 and j10b to mature and thats a silver lining for pakistan


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## S.U.R.B.

A condition of unrest between China and India can only happen during a war with Pakistan, if Indian airforce accidentally crosses the International border with China & some sort of mishap happens ,in such circumstances PLAAF can retaliate.

Meanwhile, PAF fighterjets on the other hand can a get a free pass on emergency basis.(A fruit for thought. )It's all a matter of trust and cooperation.


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## majesticpankaj

S.U.R.B. said:


> A condition of unrest between China and India can only happen during a war with Pakistan, if Indian airforce accidentally crosses the International border with China & some sort of mishap happens ,in such circumstances PLAAF can retaliate.
> 
> Meanwhile, PAF fighterjets on the other hand can a get a free pass on emergency basis.(A fruit for thought. )It's all a matter of trust and cooperation.



 all the best


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## Windjammer

Irrespective of the equipment fielded in an India/Pakistan scenario.....pilot factor cannot and must not be ignored. !!


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## Paan Singh

Santro said:


> Let me put this clear..If Pakistan goes to war with India,China will NOT step in.. If China goes to war with India.. Pakistan will leave no time to exploit the opportunity to get Kashmir or else..
> India has 80% of its military infrastructure aimed at Pakistan, where else would it use its force??? Indian military planners have only recently woken to the thought of a Chinese threat.
> and lets not discuss war scenario's further.. rather the change in PAF doctrine and Order of Battle needed to counter the induction of the MMCRA...



if india goes in war then neither pakistan will come for china nor reverse is possible.Upto maximum they can increase the force at border but no faaltu panga at all.
1)india will be the largest trading partner of china near 2020 and both nations understand this.
2)For pakistan,china will never come..upto maximum increase in the troop deployment near border but never participate.
for more reference,have a look at the interviews of the former generals and senior journalist of your country.

and india will not go for direct war with any country.They will choose proxy war through afghanistan.it will be pakistan who will start war with india from eastern border.


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> santro, I think we both agree that PLAAF won't come into picture in case of indo-pak war.
> 
> apart from speculation can you tell us the future procurement planning (next 4-5 years) of PAF to counter the mcra threat ? thnaks



Mahraj.. I cant reveal what I know is true, to what is public.. if I do know..
However, the PAF like any good airforce bases its strategies on its perceived threat.. and then manages whatever limited resources it has to counter that threat.
The Paf plan for procurement was centered around the JF-17 , the F-16 and J-10.. this was in 2005, after the gripen deal fell through. Still the plan remained till the mid of 2006.. which spurred a sudden change...why?. The PAF knew of the MKI numbers, the other assets.. and the IAF had not announced the MMRCA plan. What happened then.. is that the JF program was shifted to a higher gear.. with testing taking place in both China and Pakistan.. man power doubled.. You are already aware that there are two assembly lines for the JF.. a complete one in China.. and a co-produced one in Pakistan. Those are now increasing their throughput every quarter.. What the PAF has done to counter the MMRCA, and perhaps another purchase by the IAF is to increase the effectiveness of its planned force. By adding force multipliers and other means that will double the effectiveness of its assets.

Both the PAF and IAF are professional forces, they know their threats.. and play cat and mouse on each others abilities accordingly.. difference being.. the IAF has the luxury of resources that the PAF does not.. and it is a war of resources.. currently China comes in to offset that lack of resources.. but for how long is the question.

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------




Prism said:


> if india goes in war then neither pakistan will come for china nor reverse is possible.Upto maximum they can increase the force at border but no faaltu panga at all.
> 1)india will be the largest trading partner of china near 2020 and both nations understand this.
> 2)For pakistan,china will never come..upto maximum increase in the troop deployment near border but never participate.
> for more reference,have a look at the interviews of the former generals and senior journalist of your country.
> 
> and india will not go for direct war with any country.They will choose proxy war through afghanistan.*it will be pakistan who will start war with india from eastern border*.



Then it will be the third misadventure..

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## DESERT FIGHTER

*Important point to consider:*

In case of a indo-Pak war.... india will have to place its fighters on chinese border also!
*Reasons:*
1)Chinese may attack.
2)Chinese AF may send a few sorties just to threaten indians... 
3)PAF may use Chinese airspace to attack important installations in NE of india.

*Hence it iaf wouldnt place all its squadrons on indo-Pak border.*Meaning PAF wouldnt place all the might of iaf! but india will always feel threatened... another advantage to PAF.


////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


So lets discuss the topic which is FC-20,JF-17 Blocks- MRCA for PAF.


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## Paan Singh

Santro said:


> Then it will be the third misadventure..



of course it will be an blunder like kargil,65 etc...
so no option other than compromise on status quo and both countries should start to tell their public about the reality.
Brainwashing of public takes few years,let it to take place for 10-15 years and then solve kashmir issue.


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## SQ8

Prism said:


> of course it will be an blunder like kargil,65 etc...
> so no option other than compromise on status quo and both countries should start to tell their public about the reality.
> Brainwashing of public takes few years,let it to take place for 10-15 years and then solve kashmir issue.



Yes, something will have to be worked out.. but that is beyond the scope of this thread.


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## Paan Singh

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *Important point to consider:*
> 
> In case of a indo-Pak war.... india will have to place its fighters on chinese border also!
> *Reasons:*
> 1)Chinese may attack.
> 2)Chinese AF may send a few sorties just to threaten indians...
> 3)PAF may use Chinese airspace to attack important installations in NE of india.
> 
> *Hence it iaf wouldnt place all its squadrons on indo-Pak border.*Meaning PAF wouldnt place all the might of iaf! but india will always feel threatened... another advantage to PAF.
> 
> 
> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> 
> 
> So lets discuss the topic which is FC-20,JF-17 Blocks- MRCA for PAF.



sir ji,if same goes then india can use afghan airspace too.
+
india is going to have independent forces which will take care of their positions.


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## Paan Singh

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Afghan airspace? LOL.. have u seen the border? iaf gets will have to cross Pak sea territory than into iran and into Afghanistan(which wont let u) nor will Iran... It would also be risky... risk of getting shot down in their journey by PAF?
> 
> And what independent forces r u talkin abt? does NE have its own airforce?



nopes,i was talking about base in tajakistan.it was discussed in the recent meeting 2-3 months ago.
mig-29 might be stationed there.


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## majesticpankaj

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Mods does this BS frm a bharti troll deserve a reply? if it doesnt! shouldnt this troll be served with an infraction or a warning?
> 
> 
> @punkage.. son come up with facts or just get lost instead of getting personal... which is a disease found in u guys when u run out of arguements.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Afghan airspace? LOL.. have u seen the border? iaf gets will have to cross Pak sea territory than into iran and into Afghanistan(which wont let u) nor will Iran... It would also be risky... risk of getting shot down in their journey by PAF?
> 
> And what independent forces r u talkin abt? does NE have its own airforce?



PN -- first learn how to keep the discussion civil and on topic

For god's sake how you gonna use China airspace against Indian territory and why would china allow you and with what ? do you think that PLAAF will give their planes to PAF to operate ??  do you understand the repercussion for india and china-- an open declaration of war. China won't do it. Stop your betting hedge on PLAAF. 

There is no deal between cina and pakistan in case of a war

for your second part: India already has a airbase in Tajikistan-- we have the luxury


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> Thanks for bringing some maturity in your argument
> 
> The problem with your argument is there is lots of ifs and buts





> even china can't produce with a rate you are talking about. I have simply give you an example of MCRA that it will also take full 4 years to get first batch. a lot of *testing and compatibility* tests have to done to get them operational on the field. It is not like assembling a PC.


well lets see then the current production model based on PT-04 was first tested in April of 2006,and we started serieal production started in 2009..so a gap of just 3 years...
so I fail to understand how we cant build a newer block in 2 years if we can move to production in just 3 years..
simply put if you need 5 years to do something,some else might need just 3 , so the reference to MMRCA is irrelevant since the basic point of urs was on JFT.


> do you still believe pakistan would get 18 f-16 from US. do you even know the cost of your previous purchase ? a fragile economy like pakistan can't afford it.


yeah I know$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s
and why is that...what if the army pours in some of its fund to the airforce like it has in the past..but then again some of you call F-16 blk-50/52's a gift from USA .. its history now we have an Indian member indirectly admitting that PAF bought all that stuff from its own pocket..


> * agreed on LCA part but it dec 2013.


yup--I corrected it out in my previous post..



> * again my friend don't feed us with speculations.


the same point can be said about u..
-China cannot play a part in an indopak war
-JF-17 II will never see the light in the time frame claimed


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## majesticpankaj

@santro--- why did a get a warning ?? Yesterday bossman and today Pakistani nationalist openly abusing us and you don't take any action ? strange !!!


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## notorious_eagle

deckingraj said:


> No doubt about that fact...However that is what is troubling me the most...You are hedging your bets on China and India equation...What if they did not partcipate in the manner you want them to????



The participation will be in the form of providing PAF with the supplies it needs on emergency basis. PAF is not basing its hedge on a PLAAF-IAF confrontation but any able analyst will be able to tell you that IAF like any other professional airforce will preserve strength on its Chinese border to protect its flank.



deckingraj said:


> Anyhow these squadrons will not participate as long as we are able to achieve our objective which is controlling Pak Air-space...I don't see any logic of not using them even at the cost of loosing the objective...Keep in mind that we used our reserves for China way back in 71 war to achieve our objectives in East Bangladesh...



In 1971 China was getting ready to get annihilated by the Soviet 58th Army, they were convinced that they will attack and were coming up with a strategy to halt Soviet Armoured Columns which looked impossible at the time, thus India was free to move her forces as she pleased. This time the PLAAF is a totally different breed with much longer legged and able fighter aircrafts, the IAF commanders will off course have contingency plans in effect to try and tame the PLAAF at border if the latter decides to enter the war. 

A good commander always bases his opinion on not what the enemy will do, but what the enemy can do. As a professional unit, i have no doubt that IAF implements the latter and will have contingency plans in effect to deal with this threat. A good example would be WW2, while the Red Army was getting slaughtered on the Eastern front she still kept 40 divisions intact on its Siberian front to protect her flank from Japan even though she never faced a threat from Japan. 



deckingraj said:


> Aren't you going to do the same??? Today multi-role is the mantra...



Air Defence, CAS and Limited Air Superiority will allow PAF to use its numbers more effectively while the IAF will have to come up with a solution to assign what fighters for what role depending on the circumstances but you can be sure that it will take a bite out of IAF's offensive air superiority punch. 



deckingraj said:


> Well we need to bench mark something to compate...If IAF cannot achieve 100% operational rate then how come PAF can??? In short the number game is still going to be the same...no????



PAF has a serviceability ratio of around 85-90%, this was verified by Air Cmdr Muradk. Part of the reason why IAF's serviceability ratio is lower compared to PAF because the main IAF offensive punch consists of MIG29's and SU30MKI's which require lots of maintenance compared to PAF's fighter fleet which compromises of aircraft with very high serviceability ratio. 



deckingraj said:


> MKI is not a maintenance nightmare.....Anyhow we always had Russian Aircrafts...



Sir it is, i have been following the developments of MKI for a very long time and the technicians have complained a lot about its maintenance. Its not only prerequisite to the MKI but to the SU30 design overall, its a huge beast which requires lots of fuel and lots of maintenance work. 




deckingraj said:


> Just look at the number of sorties we performed in 71...but then if you can tame the MKI's with right tactics and necessary force multipliers then why are you ignoring the same for IAF???



Off course; at the end of the day the side which is better prepared, executes its tactics better and has a lot of luck on its side will win the day. 



deckingraj said:


> I mean with right tactics and necessary force multiplier our so called 3 generation planes can also tame your F-16's and what not, no???



Off course, PAF's F7PG pilots zap our F16's on many occasions due to superior tactics. IAF's Mig21 Bisons scored hits against USAF F15's. Your 3rd Generation aircrafts will be more active in AD role rather than AS due to their short legs, IAF will likely use aircrafts that have longer legs and can carry sustained long missions. 



deckingraj said:


> Isn't the same true for IAF???



Huge difference whether you are on offensive or defensive posture, the defensive side will always have the advantage with a BVR weapon. 



deckingraj said:


> However how many planes do you have which can participate in BVR??? Anyways first of all with nukes in picture i doubt that IAF and PAF will have a full go at each other....So in that context i think PAF is well convered but in pure conventional terms i have my doubts....



In pure conventional terms, at the present i am pretty confident in PAF's abilities to defend the skies. There is a numerical disparity but there is not overwhelming conventional disparity on IAF's side and neither does the IAF possess an F22 in its arsenal that is a game changer. Anything that PAF can see on its radars is a fair game and will be targeted.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

majesticpankaj said:


> PN -- first learn how to keep the discussion civil and on topic
> 
> For god's sake how you gonna use China airspace against Indian territory and why would china allow you and with what ? do you think that PLAAF will give their planes to PAF to operate ??  do you understand the repercussion for india and china-- an open declaration of war. China won't do it. Stop your betting hedge on PLAAF.
> 
> There is no deal between cina and pakistan in case of a war
> 
> for your second part: India already has a airbase in Tajikistan-- we have the luxury


  
Yeah right...


Abt PAF using Chinese airspace... there is always a possibilty.. abt chinese jets.. they did transfer jets to PAF during Pak-india war didnt they?

Would iaf risk not placing a few sqds on the chinese border in case of a war? never!? Hence it will decrease the number of jets PAF will have to force? wouldnt it?

Abt Tajikistan... a few unarmed druv helicopters? would Tajikistan a brotherly country n a member of OIC allow india to place its fighters on their base? NO... would it like to jump into a war which is not hers? would it risk a bombing by PAF?Certainly not!


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## Bratva

If war broke out in near future, The best bet for PAF to neutralize all the Indian bases near to it's border as soon as possible with the help of ALCM LACM and SRBM and MRBM. This way IAF will be forced to go on to back foot and will have to defend their own airspace instead of making agressive movements


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## Jungibaaz

Prism said:


> sir ji,if same goes then india can use afghan airspace too.
> +
> india is going to have independent forces which will take care of their positions.



I'm sure neither of them would like to see Babur and Ra'ad cruise missiles headed their way.

that goes for Afghanistan and Turkmenistan.


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> the context has been created by you not by us. You are assuming that IAF will divert her asset because of PLAAF fear in case of a war with Pakistan. I simply said that China will only supply you goodies nothing else. they won't fought for you.



dude i again refer you back to my posts


abdulbarijan said:


> Also in an Indo-PAK situation China will easily play a part , *even if China doesn't attack directly or gives open support to pakistan ,even then IAF will have to put some squadrons on the chinese border cuz there is freaking big airforce armed with high tech goodies at the other side
> Its better to be safe than sorry*
> 
> "and Pakistan wouldn't actually be relying,it will be *IAF's steps to make sure* that PLAAF doesn't make a back door entry..."


they dont say China will attack India in case of war
let me put it to you this way...lets suppose there is an indo-pak war (God forbid)
and like u say IAF and India will focus all her assets towards Pakistan and do nothing to protect the border with China...meaning have no squadrons there etc..
isn't that giving out an open invitation to a country that u have gone to war with ... 
thats basically my point and seeing that IAF is a professional institute It will there fore do atleast something to have a back up plan if this kind of a situation arises wouldn't it...
thats why I think that they will divide some assets towards the chinese border to atleast be able to cope to a threat if it arises...thats was my point all along..


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> well lets see then the current production model based on PT-04 was first tested in April of 2006,and we started serieal production started in 2009..so a gap of just 3 years...
> so I fail to understand how we cant build a newer block in 2 years if we can move to production in just 3 years..
> simply put if you need 5 years to do something,some else might need just 3 , so the reference to MMRCA is irrelevant since the basic point of urs was on JFT.
> 
> yeah I know$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s
> and why is that...what if the army pours in some of its fund to the airforce like it has in the past..but then again some of you call F-16 blk-50/52's a gift from USA .. its history now we have an Indian member indirectly admitting that PAF bought all that stuff from its own pocket..
> 
> yup--I corrected it out in my previous post..
> 
> 
> the same point can be said about u..
> -China cannot play a part in an indopak war
> -JF-17 II will never see the light in the time frame claimed



A lot of assumptions my friends

JF-17 and block 2 will able to compete against second best fighter in the world if we assume that they will be operational in next 2-3 years and I admit that it has a good probability.

in next 5-7 years you also need to retire your vintage aircraft which are using 60s and 70s technology . agreed ??

Now look at the procurement of IAF in the same time frame

SU30 mki
mig29 naval version
Tejas (optimistically from 2014)
MCRA

Upgradation of all major platform (super su30 mki, mig 29, mirage 2000, jaguars engine upgradation)

These deals are done and everyone can see it. they are not based on speculation and assumptions. And don't forget the weapon systems we will get will be top notch.

Last point: China will only take care of your supplies not will come into war.. do you think 100bn usd is a joke ??
Check out during kargil, operation parakram and after mumbai attack what kind of assurances were given by china to pakistan ??

JF_17 block 2 -- will have her day but not so early my dear freind


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## Jungibaaz

majesticpankaj said:


> @storm force-- u have aptly put
> 
> F-16 block 60 with AESA radar which is a generations ahead of pakistani falcons is already rejected by IAF in favor of Rafale and typhoon. I don't see paf's falcon in such a small quantity is a threat



put it into context.... give the F-16 AWACS support, give it the range of combat against an MKI similar to that of which and Indo-Pak war would allow it. F-16s suddenly become a formidable fighting force, they can defend the airspace against MKI very well.

PAF hasn't got involved in the numbers game for obvious reasons, you may see F-16s flying in groups where one is painting and feeding the armed F-16s, one F-16 dedicated for electronic attack.... etc.


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> dude i again refer you back to my posts
> 
> they dont say China will attack India in case of war
> let me put it to you this way...lets suppose there is an indo-pak war (God forbid)
> and like u say IAF and India will focus all her assets towards Pakistan and do nothing to protect the border with China...meaning have no squadrons there etc..
> isn't that giving out an open invitation to a country that u have gone to war with ...
> thats basically my point and seeing that IAF is a professional institute It will there fore do atleast something to have a back up plan if this kind of a situation arises wouldn't it...
> thats why I think that they will divide some assets towards the chinese border to atleast be able to cope to a threat if it arises...thats was my point all along..



do you believe that by keeping few squadrons at chinese border we can take on mighty PLAAF. no way mate, 

Be pragmatic my friend -- In case of a war with pak... PLAAF will have all the luxury to do whatever they want (ofcourse before we getting MCRA)

In present case we can't face both two front war-- so it doesn't make sense to keep few of our assets at eastern front


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> A lot of assumptions my friends
> 
> JF-17 and block 2 will able to compete against second best fighter in the world if we assume that they will be operational in next 2-3 years and I admit that it has a good probability.
> 
> in next 5-7 years you also need to retire your vintage aircraft which are using 60s and 70s technology . agreed ??
> 
> Now look at the procurement of IAF in the same time frame
> 
> SU30 mki
> mig29 naval version
> Tejas (optimistically from 2014)
> MCRA
> 
> Upgradation of all major platform (super su30 mki, mig 29, mirage 2000, jaguars engine upgradation)
> 
> These deals are done and everyone can see it. they are not based on speculation and assumptions. And don't forget the weapon systems we will get will be top notch.
> 
> Last point: China will only take care of your supplies not will come into war.. do you think 100bn usd is a joke ??
> Check out during kargil, operation parakram and after mumbai attack what kind of assurances were given by china to pakistan ??
> 
> JF_17 block 2 -- *will have her day* but not so early my dear freind



I can recall a similar post by one of your countrymen about the JF-17 prototype on another Pakistani forum back in early 2003. 
I am not saying that the block II will be ready next year.. or the year after that.. or when.
Anyway, its a members call to underestimate or overestimate..


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## majesticpankaj

Jungibaaz said:


> put it into context.... give the F-16 AWACS support, give it the range of combat against an MKI similar to that of which and Indo-Pak war would allow it. F-16s suddenly become a formidable fighting force, they can defend the airspace against MKI very well.
> 
> PAF hasn't got involved in the numbers game for obvious reasons, you may see F-16s flying in groups where one is painting and feeding the armed F-16s, one F-16 dedicated for electronic attack.... etc.



My friend -- we also have the support of whatever you have AWACS, SAM etc.. we have better and huge resources. 

Again 60 vintage sanctioned prone f-16s are no contest of 150+mki. read the numbers my friend they are resources.


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> My friend -- we also have the support of whatever you have AWACS, SAM etc.. we have better and huge resources.
> 
> Again *60 vintage sanctioned prone* f-16s are no contest of 150+mki. read the numbers my friend they are resources.



The fact that the F-16's are being upgraded to a VERY modern status is known to you, yet you chose to ignore that and insist on parroting your line.

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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> I can recall a similar post by one of your countrymen about the JF-17 prototype on another Pakistani forum back in early 2003.
> I am not saying that the block II will be ready next year.. or the year after that.. or when.
> Anyway, its a members call to underestimate or overestimate..



I am not underestimating or overestimating her capabilities -- the point it will take her sweet time to get mature. the same is applicable to MCRA -- Indians will be confident and able to utilize her full potential after many years of her induction

---------- Post added at 01:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 AM ----------




Santro said:


> The fact that the F-16's are being upgraded to a VERY modern status is known to you, yet you chose to ignore that and insist on parroting your line.



@Santro--You simply dodged the other part --"Sanctioned prone" 

Aren't you the one who on this very forum said that F-16 won't able to make a lot of sortie because lack of spare parts - and their will AMRAAM become useless ??


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> I am not underestimating or overestimating her capabilities -- the point it will take her sweet time to get mature. the same is applicable to MCRA -- Indians will be confident and able to utilize her full potential after many years of her induction
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> @Santro--You simply dodged the other part --"Sanctioned prone"
> 
> Aren't you the one who on this very forum said that F-16 won't able to make a lot of sortie because lack of spare parts - and their will AMRAAM become useless ??



Yes.. but sanctioned prone does not mean they will not be able to make enough sorties that count.
How long will a conflict last? a week... two?.
I said the AMRAAMS will be less effective against the Americans.. against a MKI.. they'll blow it out of the sky without a glitch.


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## Johny D

There is no need for you to bother yourself and find a possible answer...

reasons being...
...MRCA is not being inducted to counter any threat from PAF..there was no imbalancing threat in the past and there will not be in near future....MKI can take down any of Fighter being flown by PAF, at least next 10 years...

MRCA...FGFA...are only for Chinese....our number one enemy!

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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> A lot of assumptions my friends
> 
> JF-17 and block 2 will able to compete against second best fighter in the world if we assume that they will be operational in next 2-3 years and I admit that it has a good probability.


JF-17 II itself maybe cant but with the AWACS coverage,ground support and SAMS coverage can give any 4-4.5 generation a major run for its money any day.


> in next 5-7 years you also need to retire your vintage aircraft which are using 60s and 70s technology . agreed ??


We are doing it as we speak,JF-17 already has already replaced A-5's.


> Now look at the procurement of IAF in the same time frame
> 
> SU30 mki
> mig29 naval version
> Tejas (optimistically from 2014)
> MCRA
> 
> Upgradation of all major platform (super su30 mki, mig 29, mirage 2000, jaguars engine upgradation)


hmm same apllies for PAF then if your considering MMRCA as well then you should consider 
JF-17 BLK-I,II and stealthy JFT 
then the MLU upgrades
then also the FC-20 which Mr. pshamim believes has an increased initia order to 58 from the previous 36 and more obviously will be added afterwards considering what IAF is doing at the time..



> These deals are done and everyone can see it. they are not based on speculation and assumptions. And don't forget the weapon systems we will get will be top notch.


Thats the difference,you boast about your new procurements and how IAF will be stronger,but then from outta no where some deal is done as a response from PAF side which then is much more of a threat then previously considered for example just consider JFT which was basically taken by some as a F-7 replacement,check what it turned out to be,it is better than F-16A/B which at the time was the best we had.
then take a look at J-10,while some thought that it was a mistake the JF-17 and that if China had offered PAF J-10 PAF should have gone for that instead of investing on JF-17,take a look at what that turned out to be ..PAF now getting FC-20's is confirmed just the quantity is unknown..whether we go for 36,58 or 150 is entirely up to PAF's requirements 



> Last point: China will only take care of your supplies not will come into war.. do you think 100bn usd is a joke ??
> Check out during kargil, operation parakram and after mumbai attack what kind of assurances were given by china to pakistan ??
> 
> JF_17 block 2 -- will have her day but not so early my dear freind


for the last time im not saying china will come into war,just check what i have siad nearly 3 times in 3 posts..ok u shouldve checked out the response of China to USA after the OBL drama...
again that is speculation on ur part isn't it...


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> Yes.. but sanctioned prone does not mean they will not be able to make enough sorties that count.
> How long will a conflict last? a week... two?.
> I said the AMRAAMS will be less effective against the Americans.. against a MKI.. they'll blow it out of the sky without a glitch.



Santro--

If I remembered currently you were having the discussion with Mastankhan on indo pak scenario and you did say that F-16 won't be able to make enough sorties because India because of spare part issues. 

The point is F-16 has very limited capabilities against IAF and don't forget the resources we have -- it is like 3:1 vis a vis f16 and mki. also mki enjoys the longer legs

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## DARKY

Santro said:


> That off course depends on scale costs..
> Chinese labor costs are fairly cheap, so material costs come into mind.
> There is a particular DSP of US design but reverse engineered by the Chinese ..
> The US original would cost me $45 in bulk.. the Chinese version.. costs me $8..
> so that 10 million is a little extravagant.. I would suppose 3 million at the max.



I don't know If China have started producing GaAs Transistor of adequate size in bulk (mass production)... unless they do that the costs will remain High... as far I know perhaps only US have such facilities.... and going by the living standards, we have been watching a continuous increase in labour costs in China in recent few years which is supposed to increase exponentially... after all they are the 2nd largest economy.


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## Manticore

mirage rose is not 70s tech-- atleast in terms of avionics







same is the case with f16 blk52/mlu


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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> I don't know If China have started producing GaAs Transistor of adequate size in bulk (mass production)... unless they do that the costs will remain High... as far I know perhaps only US have such facilities.... and going by the living standards, we have been watching a continuous increase in labour costs in China in recent few years which is supposed to increase exponentially... after all they are the 2nd largest economy.



I cant comment on the first section, however.. the labor costs rising have not yet effected purchase prices for some equipment.
My own personal exp with purchases of electronic components from China has the change in price slight with respect to inflation for a component. Nothing drastic.


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> do you believe that by keeping few squadrons at chinese border we can take on mighty PLAAF. no way mate,
> 
> Be pragmatic my friend -- In case of a war with pak... PLAAF will have all the luxury to do whatever they want (ofcourse before we getting MCRA)
> 
> In present case we can't face both two front war-- so it doesn't make sense to keep few of our assets at eastern front


so ur saying just because you believe you cant do it the IAF will not bother to put any thing in the chinese border..
Im surprised rather disappointed..
and for the last time im not saying that China will directly come in to war..just the threat of it will force India to allocate some of its resources to cope with that threat


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> JF-17 II itself maybe cant but with the AWACS coverage,ground support and SAMS coverage can give any 4-4.5 generation a major run for its money any day.
> 
> We are doing it as we speak,JF-17 already has already replaced A-5's.
> 
> hmm same apllies for PAF then if your considering MMRCA as well then you should consider
> JF-17 BLK-I,II and stealthy JFT
> then the MLU upgrades
> then also the FC-20 which Mr. pshamim believes has an increased initia order to 58 from the previous 36 and more obviously will be added afterwards considering what IAF is doing at the time..
> 
> 
> Thats the difference,you boast about your new procurements and how IAF will be stronger,but then from outta no where some deal is done as a response from PAF side which then is much more of a threat then previously considered for example just consider JFT which was basically taken by some as a F-7 replacement,check what it turned out to be,it is better than F-16A/B which at the time was the best we had.
> then take a look at J-10,while some thought that it was a mistake the JF-17 and that if China had offered PAF J-10 PAF should have gone for that instead of investing on JF-17,take a look at what that turned out to be ..PAF now getting FC-20's is confirmed just the quantity is unknown..whether we go for 36,58 or 150 is entirely up to PAF's requirements
> 
> 
> for the last time im not saying china will come into war,just check what i have siad nearly 3 times in 3 posts..ok u shouldve checked out the response of China to USA after the OBL drama...
> again that is speculation on ur part isn't it...



my dear friend -- how many times I have to remind you about the maturity of a platform ??

Jf-17 block2 , stealthy jf-17 and j10 b are not even out of the bag.. let them get operational 

How will you feel If i show you the threat from LCA ?? 

You are assuming that suddenly and surprisingly PAF will get something very nasty -- it simply doesn't work that way.

we already have four well established platform that well in numbers along with aircraft carrier 

But one last question if you don't mind pls answer if JF-17 is such a beast and at such a low price why can't PLAAF replace her mig series aircraft with this beast ? I am just curious to know


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> Santro--
> 
> If I remembered currently you were having the discussion with Mastankhan on indo pak scenario and you did say that F-16 won't be able to make enough sorties because India because of spare part issues.
> 
> The point is F-16 has very limited capabilities against IAF and don't forget the resources we have -- it is like 3:1 vis a vis f16 and mki. also mki enjoys the longer legs



I recall that.. and I also mentioned that if the F-16's survive long enough.. 
it is an accepted fact by the F-16 community.. that they will have short life spans in a conflict.
Again.. you and some others from both sides including MastanKhan see it as F-16 vs MKI, JF-17 vs MMRCA.. 
I see it as operational doctrine vs operational doctrine, combined abilities vs combined abilities... I see the whole fighter.. not just his left biceps.

How is the longer range useful for engagement when your enemy sits less than ten minutes from you.
The longer range allows for greater loiter time.. and the ability to circumvent enemy defenses. something that will come into play.. but not too often.
Again, I would return to the MMRCA.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 PM ----------




majesticpankaj said:


> my dear friend -- how many times I have to remind you about the maturity of a platform ??
> 
> Jf-17 block2 , stealthy jf-17 and j10 b are not even out of the bag.. let them get operational
> 
> How will you feel If i show you the threat from LCA ??
> 
> You are assuming that suddenly and surprisingly PAF will get something very nasty -- it simply doesn't work that way.
> 
> we already have four well established platform that well in numbers along with aircraft carrier
> 
> But one last question if you don't mind pls answer if JF-17 is such a beast and at such a low price why can't PLAAF replace her mig series aircraft with this beast ? I am just curious to know



Patience..did the PLAAF mention the J-20 from drawing board to prototype.. they dont beat the drums on their plans..

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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> my dear friend -- how many times I have to remind you about the maturity of a platform ??
> 
> Jf-17 block2 , stealthy jf-17 and j10 b are not even out of the bag.. let them get operational
> 
> How will you feel If i show you the threat from LCA ??



Exactly,J-10's and JF-17's are not out of the bag yet but a platform which u referred to first (EF-2000) is it inducted in IAF??
It comes in 2015 by the time PAF will be operating FC-20's and JF-17 II's will be in NO. 
And when did u guys made the decesion for MMRCA since u questioned about how JFT-II will do against EF-2000?



> You are assuming that suddenly and surprisingly PAF will get something very nasty -- it simply doesn't work that way.
> 
> we already have four well established platform that well in numbers along with aircraft carrier


Im not exactly saying nasty but it will be enough to atleast keep us on a level that we can cope with IAF's threats..




> But one last question if you don't mind pls answer if JF-17 is such a beast and at such a low price why can't PLAAF replace her mig series aircraft with this beast ? I am just curious to know


The same reason why Russians dont induct MKI's to replace Mig-25's 
well the reason is stated time and again by the seniors ie they want WS-13 in there

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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> I recall that.. and I also mentioned that if the F-16's survive long enough..
> it is an accepted fact by the F-16 community.. that they will have short life spans in a conflict.
> Again.. you and some others from both sides including MastanKhan see it as F-16 vs MKI, JF-17 vs MMRCA..
> I see it as operational doctrine vs operational doctrine, combined abilities vs combined abilities... I see the whole fighter.. not just his left biceps.
> 
> How is the longer range useful for engagement when your enemy sits less than ten minutes from you.
> The longer range allows for greater loiter time.. and the ability to circumvent enemy defenses. something that will come into play.. but not too often.
> Again, I would return to the MMRCA.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Patience..did the PLAAF mention the J-20 from drawing board to prototype.. they dont beat the drums on their plans..



U pointed a very valid point-- war can't be fought in isolation -- which will put you in more risk

But you didn't answer the number things the scenario would be of 3:1 -- how the F-16 will survive with strings attached ?

In a BVR combat long legs will be a game changer -- don't you think so ??

I am disappointed with your last line -- PLAAF didn't mention it but don't you think it would have known to all the military planners of the world. It was not in the cyberspace doesn't make it invisible to the planners. On that line IAF will also have her secrets procurement.


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> Exactly,J-10's and JF-17's are not out of the bag yet but a platform which u referred to first (EF-2000) is it inducted in IAF??
> It comes in 2015 by the time PAF will be operating FC-20's and JF-17 II's will be in NO.
> 
> 
> Im not exactly saying nasty but it will be enough to atleast keep us on a level that we can cope with IAF's threats..
> 
> 
> 
> The same reason why Russians dont induct MKI's to replace Mig-25's
> well the reason is stated time and again by the seniors ie they want WS-13 in there



EF-2000 is operational my friend.. there is no speculation regarding her existence. I am not saying jf-17-2and jb-10 are not present they are but they are not operational.

that is we want to know -- what is that ?

Russian can't have MKIs because it is customized as per indian requirement. a lot of western equipment are there in MKI.

the reason you have mentioned is ridiculous -- they already ordered a lot of engines from russia. even j10 and j20 prototype are working on russian engine.


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## DARKY

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *Important point to consider:*
> 
> In case of a indo-Pak war.... india will have to place its fighters on chinese border also!
> *Reasons:*
> 1)Chinese *may* attack.
> 2)Chinese AF may *send a few sorties* just to threaten indians...
> 3)PAF *may* use Chinese airspace to attack important installations in NE of india.
> 
> *Hence it iaf wouldnt place all its squadrons on indo-Pak border.*Meaning PAF wouldnt place all the might of iaf! but india will always feel threatened... another advantage to PAF.
> 
> 
> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> 
> 
> So lets discuss the topic which is FC-20,JF-17 Blocks- MRCA for PAF.


 

Such a silly assumption Don't see why China will attack and endanger its position globally by inviting other big powers like NATO or Russia to spoil their hard earned economy.

Why would they send sorties when they would know that 4.5-4.75 gen. advanced aircrafts are already based at places like Tezpur, Barelly, Ambala, Agra, Hindon, Leh, Gorakhpur etc...

Which PAF plane has the capability to take off with adequate fuel and pay load from the airfields 5000m above the sea level ??... would remind you that planes like SH, F-16 block 60 etc... failed to do so in Leh during MMRCA evaluation.


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> The essence of my post was jf-17 can't stand against the established platform that IAF operates -- su 30 mki, mig 29. jaguars. mirage 2000. they are already established and battle proven. IAF has conducted a lot of exercises to develop the platform



Whatever you say , do not bring Jaguar from now on into your argument ... I am perfectly sure that you aren't even aware about the different kind of roles that aircrafts have to perform ... Jaguar is a ground attack plane which isn't designed to fight a multi role or fighter plane ... 

_The SEPECAT Jaguar is an Anglo-French jet *ground attack aircraft*, originally used by the British Royal Air Force and the French Armée de l'Air in the close air support and nuclear strike role, and still in service with several export customers, notably the Indian Air Force and the Royal Air Force of Oman.
_

Jaguar doesn't even stand a chance against F7 or the Mirage3/5 of PAF let alone JFT ... since being a ground attack aircraft it isn't designed to do so ... If the Mig Chief himself says that JFT is extremely close to MIG 29 then who are you to complain ? MIG 29 last time i checked , is an Russian aircraft and they know their aircraft better than anyone else ... Also i have explained , that long distances and other advantages of twin engined fighter are neutralized since PAF bases are located very close to the border and do not have to travel huge distance to engage their enemy ( Also remember that PAF has a defensive doctrine )... Unlike IAF , we dont have extremely large territories to defend ... About the development and maturity , JFT has been rigorously tested by PAF in High Mark , Azm-Nau 3 and other exercises and with the induction of new avionics and more changes to the design , its getting more mature day by day ... Even if its not battle proven , how are you so sure that its capabilies are undermined ?


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> U pointed a very valid point-- war can't be fought in isolation -- which will put you in more risk
> 
> But you didn't answer the number things the scenario would be of 3:1 -- how the F-16 will survive with strings attached ?
> 
> In a BVR combat long legs will be a game changer -- don't you think so ??
> 
> I am disappointed with your last line -- PLAAF didn't mention it but don't you think it would have known to all the military planners of the world. *It was not in the cyberspace doesn't make it invisible to the planners*. On that line IAF will also have her secrets procurement.



Think about what I said again.. you may get it.

in a 3:1 scenario.. the strings of sanctions wont matter.. A 3:1 against a capable enemy and you will be gone long before santions hit even if you take two down for every one of yours.
In BVR combat.. legs become a game changer in case the IAF bases its assets far behind the border.
It will matter if the IAF becomes clever and circumvents the Pakistan coastline to strike from behind.. any other circling movements would be picked up.


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## Storm Force

126 Typhoons will soon settle any 2 front war situations that IAF may find itself in.

infact i think the order is being increased to 189

IMAGINE a sqd Typhoons & SU30MKI coming up against 100 THUNDERS & F16s. 



My money goes to meteore equipped Typhoons winning all the points. 

And i am certain the chinease will not want to be embarressed by IAF typhoons and MKI PILOTS.


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## PakShaheen79

majesticpankaj said:


> My friend -- we also have the support of whatever you have AWACS, SAM etc.. we have better and huge resources.
> 
> Again 60 vintage sanctioned prone f-16s are no contest of 150+mki. read the numbers my friend they are resources.



And u are repeating this, what.... 100th time? I asked earlier as well that where this super duper IAF with all its might was in 2002 and 2008? huh.

You are constantly ignoring the fact that JFT from inception is worked by PAF and it is only case in the world. Do you know what that means? This is not a fighter designed by some company and purchased by some Air Force... This is outcome of requirements and specifications of PAF. So, it was never supposed to take longer time span of 5-7 years before being a mature platform. It is in the consistently on trial since 2006 when current production model prototype flew so it has seen that phase pretty much.

I can understand that JFT was very difficult for you guys to accept as reality so is Block-II.


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## abdulbarijan

[


majesticpankaj said:


> EF-2000 is operational my friend.. there is no speculation regarding her existence. I am not saying jf-17-2and jb-10 are not present they are but they are not operational.


Sure,I remember you guys wanted AESA in MMRCA contenders and few of your own IAF requirements right..now EF-2000 doesn't currently operate an AESA,same goes for rafale which uses RBE2..now by your logic they are also under development since the upgrading process is under way similar to J-10B and JF-17 II...


> that is we want to know -- what is that ?


JF-17 II,III,MLU F-16's + new ones,FC-20's,with C4I and AWACS support and new SAMS 



> Russian can't have MKIs because it is customized as per indian requirement. a lot of western equipment are there in MKI.
> 
> the reason you have mentioned is ridiculous -- they already ordered a lot of engines from russia. even j10 and j20 prototype are working on russian engine.


But they are being replaced arn't they WS-10B for J-10,a new engine for J-20 and WS-13 for JF-17..PLAAF itself is in no hurry to deploy JF-17 as they have their hands full with J-20,J-10 etc


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> Think about what I said again.. you may get it.
> 
> in a 3:1 scenario.. the strings of sanctions wont matter.. A 3:1 against a capable enemy and you will be gone long before santions hit even if you take two down for every one of yours.
> In BVR combat.. legs become a game changer in case the IAF bases its assets far behind the border.
> It will matter if the IAF becomes clever and circumvents the Pakistan coastline to strike from behind.. any other circling movements would be picked up.



as per your analysis all the points again goes to IAF

Let me ask you a question -- why Israel which is encircled by arabs has been so successful against arabs ?


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## SQ8

Gentlemen, please post on ideal counters to the MMRCA.. not the rest of the equation.


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> [
> Sure,I remember you guys wanted AESA in MMRCA contenders and few of your own IAF requirements right..now EF-2000 doesn't currently operate an AESA,same goes for rafale which uses RBE2..now by your logic they are also under development since the upgrading process is under way similar to J-10B and JF-17 II...
> 
> JF-17 II,III,MLU F-16's + new ones,FC-20's,with C4I and AWACS support and new SAMS
> 
> 
> But they are being replaced arn't they WS-10B for J-10,a new engine for J-20 and WS-13 for JF-17..PLAAF itself is in no hurry to deploy JF-17 as they have their hands full with J-20,J-10 etc



Rafale and typhoon are selected against the F-18 superhornet and F-16 block 60 having AESA which speaks volume about their capabilities -- doesn't it ?? So don't put question mark against their capabilities. again my friend you don't have iota of knowledge of being operational.

F-16 new ones ?? forget about it... sorry to say but jf-17 who has been refused by china itself is only a PDF phenomenon.

they are variants only not the final products. and why did they order russian engines if in case they are operational ??


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> Rafale and typhoon are selected against the F-18 superhornet and F-16 block 60 having AESA which speaks volume about their capabilities -- doesn't it ?? So don't put question mark against their capabilities. again my friend you don't have iota of knowledge of being operational.


Sure when the EF-2000's and Rafale are under upgrades they are operational,but when the JFT and J-10's are under similar upgrades they are not operational ..its okay no problemoo



> F-16 new ones ?? forget about it... sorry to say but jf-17 who has been refused by china itself is only a PDF phenomenon.


continue underestimating after all thats why PAF did to IAF in history what it did becuz of ur superiority complex..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/49985-paf-1965-air-war-explained-john-fricker.html


> they are variants only not the final products. and why did they order russian engines if in case they are operational ??


Exports , U need to have options,Chinese are not the best in the engine arena and to compensate for that U need to have the capability to give others some other options eg PAF might operate FC-20 with Russian engine,and the fact that the solution is more feasible to maintain such a huge fleet of fighter jets (for China)..but when they can produce more No. of engines and they will mature than obviously we will see J-10,J-20 and JFT with chinese engines


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> Rafale and typhoon are selected against the F-18 superhornet and F-16 block 60 having AESA which speaks volume about their capabilities -- doesn't it ?? So don't put question mark against their capabilities. again my friend you don't have iota of knowledge of being operational.
> 
> F-16 new ones ?? forget about it... sorry to say but jf-17 who has been refused by china itself is only a PDF phenomenon.
> 
> they are variants only not the final products. and why did they order russian engines if in case they are operational ??



Just go to the JFT thread once and learn what the hell it is ? ( all the basic specs , avionic , EW etc ) so you dont have to come and irritate us with the same " Chinese products are inferior " and " Oh JFT wasn't adopted by PLAAF ) logics ... I am starting to think that even when confronted with proof , you will go round and round and again post the same crap argument ... The simple reason that Chinese ordered Russian engines is that it is far more cheaper and feasible at the moment to purchase Russian engines rather than waste precious time ... Chinese engine production lines still cant supply enough engines which the PLAAF requires hence the contract with Russia which gives enough time to Chinese engines developers to open new production line to increase supply ... Doesn't mean that WS series has technical faults ... China has an arsenal of more than 190 J10's and 120 J11's and their numbers are increasing each year which need a hell lot of engines to fly ... Rest assured in the future when Chinese engine builders can supply enough engines to meet the demand , there wont be further purchase from the Russians ... J10 , JFT's , J11 and in the future J 20 are all slated to fly with Chinese WS series engines


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## DARKY

To all those of you who think that PAF's embargoed F-16s are a No threat... let me tell you there aren't any secret software which won't allow their radars to lock on to Indian fighters neither are US going to tell you the location of those aircrafts even if they know it.... the spares are just enough to last the war which won't exceed more than a week.... the BVR missiles are also enough to be fired in that time.... and no body is snatching them when the war starts... without F-16 PAF is nil... and those are the only fighters which can stand against the current IAF 4.5 gen. fleet.. If I were from the weapon manufacturer in US I would like to see how my F-16 performs against other fighter and rather encourage them to fight.


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## Secur

DARKY said:


> without F-16 PAF is nil...


 Try to go through the thread of JFT


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> Sure when the EF-2000's and Rafale are under upgrades they are operational,but when the JFT and J-10's are under similar upgrades they are not operational ..its okay no problemoo
> 
> 
> continue underestimating after all thats why PAF did to IAF in history what it did becuz of ur superiority complex..
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/49985-paf-1965-air-war-explained-john-fricker.html
> 
> Exports , U need to have options,Chinese are not the best in the engine arena and to compensate for that U need to have the capability to give others some other options eg PAF might operate FC-20 with Russian engine.



dear friend-- to fit an AESA you need to do a lot of changes in air-frame. and please western technology with their knowledge and experience they are way ahead of Chinese tech. You should appreciate the facts.

I don't want to bring the history because it would be off topic.

so don't boast about chinese engines as they are not operational. and please read this-- another nightmare for PAF

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times


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## Windjammer

*Found this on the web, makes interesting reading and should clear some cob webs.*

*The event*
At 11:30 am PST [Pakistan Standard Time], 3 Indian Mirage 2000-H fighter jets crossed the line of control, intruding in airspace over Pakistani side of the disputed valley of Kashmir, up until approximately three to four miles before they were intercepted by 2 F16s and 2 Mirage III fighter jets of Pakistan air force.
The second intrusion was recorded at around 12:20 pm PST, when 2 Indian SU-30 MKIs crossed the international border near an eastern city of Pakistan; Lahore. During this instance, they were able to penetrate around 2 miles inside the Pakistani airspace before getting intercepted by 3 F-16s and 3 F7 fighter jets of Pakistan air force.
Given the murkiness surrounding the event, its still unknown (thus subject to a future update of this post), if the intruding aircrafts went back on their own upon registering PAF fighters on their radars, or were hailed by PAF fighters and got escorted out of Pakistani air space.
*
What does the political regime in India set to gain from such an operation?*
From what Ive read and seen, I believe the current regime in India tried to score two goals by launching such an operation.

The overwhelming domestic pressure inside India is forcing their governments hand and pushing it toward taking unilateral military action against Pakistan-based militants. That said, it doesnt need a rocket scientist to realize that any war or a mass scale conflict with Pakistan will worsen the security situation for India and in the broader region (read Allied forces residing in Afghanistan). Thus, in their attempt at striking a balance between the need to act and the need to exercise caution, New Delhi likely ordered the incursions as a means to sustain the pressure on Pakistan in order to make it continue its crackdown on militants, without really escalating the situation beyond the point of no return.
British Prime Minister was set to visit Pakistan and India, on Sunday morning i.e. December 14th, 2008. It was an excellent time to drive the point home (specially to the western intermediaries), that India is serious in achieving its targets inside Pakistan this time around. And what better way could there have been but by sounding alarms for an impending surgical aerial strike inside Pakistan.
What does Indian air force set to gain from such an operation?
This is certainly not the first time that Indian air force has sent its aircrafts over Pakistani territory in order to conduct ELINT (electronic intelligence) and RECCE (reconnaissance) operations. Throughout the 80s, 90s and much of early 2000s, IAF has been sending routine sorties of their MiG-25 FOXBAT fighter jet over Lahore, Islamabad and Azad Kashmir with relative impunity, considering the fact that Pakistan air force or the army have no weapon in their arsenal capable of countering an aircraft flying at MACH 3 at a height of a hundred thousand feet. But ever since its retirement in 2006, they have relied on their CARTOSAT/OCEANSAT/IRS series of satellites for visual surveillance of Indias neighborhood. While, satellites did give them a better surveillance capability, they do not allow them to record signatures for newer radar or SAM systems being incorporated by their neighbours (a much useful feature on the FOXBATs).

Therefore, if IAF are to in fact prepare to launch surgical strikes inside Pakistani territory, they will first need the following information:

*The level of PAFs preparedness and sortie generation speed.*
Recording TPS-77 , YLC-2 and YLC-6 radar signatures (if they did in fact go live, during the intercept). Why? Because, these three are the newest radar systems acquired by PAF and thus their radar signatures are hitherto unknown to the Indians.
Check for any new fixed / mobile SAM (Surface to Air missiles) batteries which radars lit up, during their flight over Pakistani territory.
It should, therefore not come as a surprise that it were two of Indias finest birds (with Russian and Israeli EW [electronic warfare] equipment) that took to the sky for this particular mission.
*
Reaction of Government of Pakistan*
Well, weve a joke of an information minister; Sherry Rehman, trying to drive across a point that doesnt make sense to even a slightly thinking mind. There is always a span of 15 to 20 km on either side of a border that is considered a no fly zone (for military aircrafts). This span is utilized for reactionary purposes so as to allow reaction through aerial interception and engagement which requires 3 to 5 minutes in times of dire need. How can then two of the finest birds in Indian air forces inventory make the same mistake (of entering Pakistani airspace while making a turn as per explained by the President of Pakistan; Asif Ali Zardari), at two different occasions, at two different points over Pakistani territory on the same day? Keep in mind that we are not talking about a single fighter jet in here, but complete sorties of 3 Mirage 2000-H and 2 SU-30 MKI aircrafts.
*
Does the explanation, put forward by the Government of Pakistan, make any sense to you now?*

From where I see it and having a slight agreement with, Pakistani politicians do not want to get cornered and start a war (of any scale) with India. And are thus bending over backwards in order to appease them, even if it takes them to make illogical and irrational explanations describing some very visible signs of Indian belligerence. Another reason for doing this, is to keep the emotions of people of Pakistan in check. What I dont know, is that how far their attempts will go.

Why? Because this is not the 80s anymore, information spreads like jungle-fire courtesy Pakistans private media outlets and more importantly, Pakistani military services do not seem to be in a mood to put up with such behaviour. What strengthens my belief is the fact that the news about PAF intercepting Indian fighters was leaked to the private media through PAF sources, after almost 12 hours of the said event. It didnt come from the government of Pakistan.
*
What did PAF gain from the intercept?*
One word; confidence. To be able to intercept enemy fighter jets within 2 â 5 miles of Pakistani airspace (that is equivalent of flight time of around 15 seconds for a jet fighter), suggests that they were not only ready for such a move on part of IAF but also on their toes, keeping a look out for it. While numerically and qualitatively, PAF jets are far inferior to what the Indians can put up in the air, the fact that they got air borne and reached the target area within such a short period of time, suggests that it was a job well done.

Indian SU-30 MKI and Mirage 2000-H aircrafts intrude into Pakistani airspace | Abdullah Saad

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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Just go to the JFT thread once and learn what the hell it is ? ( all the basic specs , avionic , EW etc ) so you dont have to come and irritate us with the same " Chinese products are inferior " and " Oh JFT wasn't adopted by PLAAF ) logics ... I am starting to think that even when confronted with proof , you will go round and round and again post the same crap argument ... The simple reason that Chinese ordered Russian engines is that it is far more cheaper and feasible at the moment to purchase Russian engines rather than waste precious time ... Chinese engine production lines still cant supply enough engines which the PLAAF requires hence the contract with Russia which gives enough time to Chinese engines developers to open new production line to increase supply ... Doesn't mean that WS series has technical faults ... China has an arsenal of more than 190 J10's and 120 J11's and their numbers are increasing each year which need a hell lot of engines to fly ... Rest assured in the future when Chinese engine builders can supply enough engines to meet the demand , there wont be further purchase from the Russians ... J10 , JFT's , J11 and in the future J 20 are all slated to fly with Chinese WS series engines



you are putting question mark against the supply lines of china  In that case how they suffice the need of PAF ?? I guess russian engines will do


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> you are putting question mark against the supply lines of china  In that case how they suffice the need of PAF ?? I guess russian engines will do


 It is common knowledge that Chinese production lines are currently unable to supply enough engines to meet the demand of the PLAAF ... Slowly , they are increasing their capacity but at the moment they have to purchase Russian engines to meet the demand ( why dont you pressurize the Russians to stop supplying the engines though ?  )


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## majesticpankaj

@windjammer -- don't post the blog which do not even mention the date of incident

---------- Post added at 02:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 AM ----------




Secur said:


> It is common knowledge that Chinese production lines are currently unable to supply enough engines to meet the demand of the PLAAF ... Slowly , they are increasing their capacity but at the moment they have to purchase Russian engines to meet the demand ( why dont you pressurize the Russians to stop supplying the engines though ?  )



We do not have immediate threat against jf-17

as i posted above

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> @windjammer -- don't post the blog which do not even mention the date of incident
> 
> Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times


Nothing more than a political speech to please the Indians ... Actions speak louder than words ... Why do they still supply the PLAAF ( and by extension PAF ) with engines and aircrafts and all sorts of their finest military tech if they are such great friend of yours ? The reason : Money ... They needed money to build the 5th generation PAK FA and they got it LOL ... They sell weapons to both China and India for the very same reason


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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Nothing more than a political speech to please the Indians ... Actions speak louder than words ... Why do they still supply the PLAAF ( and by extension PAF ) with engines and aircrafts and all sorts of their finest military tech if they are such great friend of yours ? The reason : Money ... They needed money to build the 5th generation PAK FA and they got it LOL ... They sell weapons to both China and India for the very same reason



you are talking that we are not getting PAK FA 

Here we are talking about indo pak scenario-- both of your so called finest aircraft are sanctioned prone -- Russia won't entertain you during WAR


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## DARKY

Windjammer said:


> *Found this on the web, makes interesting reading and should clear some cob webs.*
> 
> *The event*
> At 11:30 am PST [Pakistan Standard Time], 3 Indian Mirage 2000-H fighter jets crossed the line of control, intruding in airspace over Pakistani side of the disputed valley of Kashmir, up until* approximately three to four miles* before they were intercepted by 2 F16s and 2 Mirage III fighter jets of Pakistan air force.
> The second intrusion was recorded at around 12:20 pm PST, when 2 Indian SU-30 MKIs crossed the international border near an eastern city of Pakistan; Lahore. During this instance, they were able to penetrate around *2 miles* inside the Pakistani airspace before getting intercepted by 3 F-16s and 3 F7 fighter jets of Pakistan air force.
> Given the murkiness surrounding the event, its still unknown (thus subject to a future update of this post), if the intruding aircrafts went back on their own upon registering PAF fighters on their radars, or were hailed by PAF fighters and got escorted out of Pakistani air space.
> *
> What does the political regime in India set to gain from such an operation?*
> From what Ive read and seen, I believe the current regime in India tried to score two goals by launching such an operation.
> 
> The overwhelming domestic pressure inside India is forcing their governments hand and pushing it toward taking unilateral military action against Pakistan-based militants. That said, it doesnt need a rocket scientist to realize that any war or a mass scale conflict with Pakistan will worsen the security situation for India and in the broader region (read Allied forces residing in Afghanistan). Thus, in their attempt at striking a balance between the need to act and the need to exercise caution, New Delhi likely ordered the incursions as a means to sustain the pressure on Pakistan in order to make it continue its crackdown on militants, without really escalating the situation beyond the point of no return.
> British Prime Minister was set to visit Pakistan and India, on Sunday morning i.e. December 14th, 2008. It was an excellent time to drive the point home (specially to the western intermediaries), that India is serious in achieving its targets inside Pakistan this time around. And what better way could there have been but by sounding alarms for an impending surgical aerial strike inside Pakistan.
> What does Indian air force set to gain from such an operation?
> This is certainly not the first time that Indian air force has sent its aircrafts over Pakistani territory in order to conduct ELINT (electronic intelligence) and RECCE (reconnaissance) operations. Throughout the 80s, 90s and much of early 2000s, IAF has been sending routine sorties of their MiG-25 FOXBAT fighter jet over Lahore, Islamabad and Azad Kashmir with relative impunity, considering the fact that Pakistan air force or the army have no weapon in their arsenal capable of countering an aircraft flying at MACH 3 at a height of a hundred thousand feet. But ever since its retirement in 2006, they have relied on their CARTOSAT/OCEANSAT/IRS series of satellites for visual surveillance of Indias neighborhood. While, satellites did give them a better surveillance capability, they do not allow them to record signatures for newer radar or SAM systems being incorporated by their neighbours (a much useful feature on the FOXBATs).
> 
> Therefore, if IAF are to in fact prepare to launch surgical strikes inside Pakistani territory, they will first need the following information:
> 
> *The level of PAFs preparedness and sortie generation speed.*
> Recording *TPS-77* , YLC-2 and YLC-6 radar signatures (if they did in fact go live, during the intercept). Why? Because, these three are the newest radar systems acquired by PAF and thus their radar signatures are hitherto unknown to the Indians.
> Check for any new fixed / mobile SAM (Surface to Air missiles) batteries which radars lit up, during their flight over Pakistani territory.
> It should, therefore not come as a surprise that it were two of Indias finest birds (with Russian and Israeli EW [electronic warfare] equipment) that took to the sky for this particular mission.
> *
> Reaction of Government of Pakistan*
> Well, weve a joke of an information minister; Sherry Rehman, trying to drive across a point that doesnt make sense to even a slightly thinking mind. There is always a span of 15 to 20 km on either side of a border that is considered a no fly zone (for military aircrafts). This span is utilized for reactionary purposes so as to allow reaction through aerial interception and engagement which requires 3 to 5 minutes in times of dire need. How can then two of the finest birds in Indian air forces inventory make the same mistake (of entering Pakistani airspace while making a turn as per explained by the President of Pakistan; Asif Ali Zardari), at two different occasions, at two different points over Pakistani territory on the same day? Keep in mind that we are not talking about a single fighter jet in here, but complete sorties of 3 Mirage 2000-H and 2 SU-30 MKI aircrafts.
> *
> Does the explanation, put forward by the Government of Pakistan, make any sense to you now?*
> 
> From where I see it and having a slight agreement with, Pakistani politicians do not want to get cornered and start a war (of any scale) with India. And are thus bending over backwards in order to appease them, even if it takes them to make illogical and irrational explanations describing some very visible signs of Indian belligerence. Another reason for doing this, is to keep the emotions of people of Pakistan in check. What I dont know, is that how far their attempts will go.
> 
> Why? Because this is not the 80s anymore, information spreads like jungle-fire courtesy Pakistans private media outlets and more importantly, Pakistani military services do not seem to be in a mood to put up with such behaviour. What strengthens my belief is the fact that the news about PAF intercepting Indian fighters was leaked to the private media through PAF sources, after almost 12 hours of the said event. It didnt come from the government of Pakistan.
> *
> What did PAF gain from the intercept?*
> One word; confidence. To be able to intercept enemy fighter jets within 2 â 5 miles of Pakistani airspace (that is equivalent of flight time of around 15 seconds for a jet fighter), suggests that they were not only ready for such a move on part of IAF but also on their toes, keeping a look out for it. While numerically and qualitatively, PAF jets are far inferior to what the Indians can put up in the air, the fact that they got air borne and reached the target area within such a short period of time, suggests that it was a job well done.
> 
> Indian SU-30 MKI and Mirage 2000-H aircrafts intrude into Pakistani airspace | Abdullah Saad


 
The writer says that the jets were intercepted within 2-3 mile in Pakistani air space..... at the same times entertains a possiblility of the intruders being escorted by the PAF jets.

The sorties was a clinical one required to record technical data and have ground mapping for any SAM site present across the border.

In any case incursion is made with atleast one wing man.

at the event of war there would be more than scores of such incursions taking places every hour... and the numbers would change from 2 Su 30 against 3 f-16 and 3 F-7s to 5 Su 30 against 2 F-16s and 2 F-7 which would be downed pretty early most of the times.

The main concern for the Lahore incursion would've been to gain the data over TPS-77 Radar installed there... the radar can be countered by the use of Kh-31 by blinding it or brahmos by destroying it in no time... both well within reach from well inside the Indian border.


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## DARKY

Secur said:


> Try to go through the thread of JFT



Your JFT thread doesn't make the plane what it is not... the hard truth is that PAF has not much to fight with without F-16 as of now... you can make 100s of JFT threads and sing praises but it won't change.

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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> you are talking that we are not getting PAK FA
> 
> Here we are talking about indo pak scenario-- both of your so called finest aircraft are sanctioned prone -- Russia won't entertain you during WAR


 We wont need it even since the entire JFT is manufactured in Pakistan so there is no problem of spares or anything  ... For engines , Russia is already providing us with RD 93 even when it is well aware that they will be used on Pakistani JFT's  and in the future JFT will be powered by Chinese WS 13 ( testing has already begun ) so forget about it being sanction prone


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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> We wont need it even since the entire JFT is manufactured in Pakistan so there is no problem of spares and anything  ... For engines , Russia is already providing us with RD 93 even when it is well aware that they will be used on Pakistani JFT's  and in the future JFT will be powered by Chinese WS 13 so forget about it being sanction prone



 do you have any idea what you are talking ? just you were saying that china's supply lines are overloaded that's why they are purchasing russian engines. how they will support pakistan ?? And I did mention during the time of war -- engines won't come to you. also think about that why India didn't oppose the sale of engines to Pakistan.. think about it


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## deckingraj

majesticpankaj said:


> do you have any idea what you are talking ? just you were saying that china's supply lines are overloaded that's why they are purchasing russian engines. how they will support pakistan ?? And I did mention during the time of war -- engines won't come to you. also think about that* why India didn't oppose the sale of engines to Pakistan*.. think about it



We did....in fact the sale was initially blocked...but later on allowed...Now not sure what was the catalyst for reversing the decision....


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> do you have any idea what you are talking ? *just you were saying that china's supply lines are overloaded that's why they are purchasing russian engines. how they will support pakistan *?? And I did mention during the time of war -- engines won't come to you. also think about that why India didn't oppose the sale of engines to Pakistan.. think about it


 What makes you think that Chinese manufacturers aren't increasing the capacity of their production lines as we speak ? The recent purchase of Russian engines was just done to give more time for these manufacturers to increase capacity ... Do you really think that China's purchase of Russian engines means that their engines aren't performing up to the mark ? BTW , India tried her level best to oppose the sale of RD 93 at first ( why did they do so if JF 17's aren't a threat  ) but failed miserably ... Just go through some old archives and you will get the idea ... You cant even understand the roles of different aircrafts , the basic concept of demand and supply and RD 93 sale reports and you are debating with us on that ... Pathetic really


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## Secur

_Russian initially blocked its sale of Kilmov RD-93 engine for JF 17 thunder saying the following as quoted by Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich:

"We've denied China the right to supply its JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines to third countries, asking it to sign an end-user certificate for the engines,"


Speaking to Indian and Russian journalists ahead of a visit to India by Russia's Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov on January 22,2007 Col.-Gen. Mazurkevich confirmed that India and Russia are shortly to sign accords to jointly develop and produce a 5th generation fighter plane and a multi-role transport aircraft.


Later on President Vladimir Putin personally supervised the deal and inked sanctioning documents, representatives of president&#65533;s administration specified. The deal was backed up by all parties concerned &#65533; Defense Ministry, Federal Industry Agency and Rosoboron export, which is the state exporter of weapons. 


_ Enjoy !!!    Personally allowed by the Russian president

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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> What makes you think that Chinese manufacturers aren't increasing the capacity of their production lines as we speak ? The recent purchase of Russian engines was just done to give more time for these manufacturers to increase capacity ... Do you really think that China's purchase of Russian engines means that their engines aren't performing up to the mark ? BTW , India tried her level best to oppose the sale of RD 93 at first ( why did they do so if JF 17's aren't a threat  ) but failed miserably ... Just go through some old archives and you will get the idea ... You cant even understand the roles of different aircrafts , the basic concept of demand and supply and RD 93 sale reports and you are debating with us on that ... Pathetic really




 tell me Chinese engines are better or equal to Russian ones without being getting operational ?? before increasing the capacity let them first make a operational one than we can evaluate the performance. why US is upgrading her f-16 fleet ?? because there are issues with F-35 , the same thing applies to china also. they still have unresolved issues with engines.

I think russian had placate indian concerned regarding RD93


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> tell me Chinese engines are better or equal to Russian ones without being getting operational ?? before increasing the capacity let them first make a operational one than we can evaluate the performance. why US is upgrading her f-16 fleet ?? because there are issues with F-35 , the same thing applies to china also. they still have unresolved issues with engines.
> 
> *I think russian had placate indian concerned regarding RD*


 Chinese engines are already powering the J10 and J11 at the moment so whether they are equal or better than the Russian engines remains out of the question ( Both Chinese and Russian engines are being used ) ... In this way , the smart Chinese are giving more time for their manufacturers to increase capacity and time to mature ... Do you even know that JFT PT 06 is flying in China with WS13 and second batch avionics ? Also the J 20 is powered by WS 15 ( 180 kn engine ) which i think ( even though i doubt  ) may enable you to understand how much progress China has made in engine technology ... 

Think and keep thinking  People usually act like this when their crap arguments are debunked and ignorance revealed

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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Chinese engines are already powering the J10 and J11 at the moment so whether they are equal or better than the Russian engines remains out of the question ( Both Chinese and Russian engines are being used ) ... In this way , the smart Chinese are giving more time for their manufacturers to increase capacity and time to mature ... Do you even know that JFT PT 06 is flying in China with WS13 and second batch avionics ? Also the J 20 is powered by WS 15 ( 180 kn engine ) which i think ( even though i doubt  ) may enable you to understand how much progress China has made in engine technology ...
> 
> Think and keep thinking  People usually act like this when their crap arguments are debunked and ignorance revealed



Chinese engines are not able to powered the current batch of JFT which speaks volume about your claims  and still need to depend on russian one and ordering the fresh batch


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## MilSpec

Jungibaaz said:


> put it into context.... give the F-16 AWACS support, give it the range of combat against an MKI similar to that of which and Indo-Pak war would allow it. F-16s suddenly become a formidable fighting force, they can defend the airspace against MKI very well.
> 
> PAF hasn't got involved in the numbers game for obvious reasons, you may see F-16s flying in groups where one is painting and feeding the armed F-16s, one F-16 dedicated for electronic attack.... etc.



This is what surprises me every time, whenever airforce combat is discussed, pakistani friends are super quick to draw out awacs support to f16 blk 52 to nullify MKI/m2k/m29smt's, what about IAF phalcons which are considered the best awacs in the world which are networked with all the three lead in strike aircrafts? if you consider awacs support to enhance PAF, doesn't the same apply to 51m2k's/157MKI's/58 m29smt's which apply to 63-f16's/56 j17's ?

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## PakShaheen79

majesticpankaj said:


> tell me Chinese engines are better or equal to Russian ones without being getting operational ?? before increasing the capacity let them first make a operational one than we can evaluate the performance. why US is upgrading her f-16 fleet ?? because there are issues with F-35 , the same thing applies to china also. they still have unresolved issues with engines.
> 
> I think russian had placate indian concerned regarding RD93



You must know that it is not the design of engine which had issues. Rather, it was a quality control issue with WS-10. And is precisely the reason for setting the FC-20 delivery time span around 2014-15. Rest, rule of physics remains the same and so is the propulsion system principles. Otherwise, WS-10 has gotten operational clearance long time ago.






Source: Jane&#8217;s, Global Times, China.com

And this is why they are not able to make the required number of engines to catch the pace with which they are producing airframe and avionics.






It is problem with number of skilled personnel working on the WS-10 compare to the other engine manufacturers around the world. But according to latest estimates, it would take 2-3 years before China has enough skilled manpower. So, all the Russian engines are stopgap measures.

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## danger007

Jungibaaz said:


> put it into context.... give the F-16 AWACS support, give it the range of combat against an MKI similar to that of which and Indo-Pak war would allow it. F-16s suddenly become a formidable fighting force, they can defend the airspace against MKI very well.
> 
> PAF hasn't got involved in the numbers game for obvious reasons, you may see F-16s flying in groups where one is painting and feeding the armed F-16s, one F-16 dedicated for electronic attack.... etc.



what if Pakistani AWACS shot down. JF-17


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## abdulbarijan

danger007 said:


> what if Pakistani AWACS shot down. JF-17





danger007 said:


> @Indian friends: ignore this fanboy abdulbarijan statements...


wow and I thought I was the only fanboy around ..
well coming back to the topic FC-20 is the best that we can do against MMRCA, what really needs to be done is better ground coverage by filling gaps with new radars,and get new SAMS and complete the rest of the modernization of JF-17..

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## danger007

abdulbarijan said:


> wow and I thought I was the only fanboy around ..



lol that place reserve to you only. i just raised a point. You people depending on AWACS support and talking it will nullify IAF advantage. So i just mention what if AWAC shot down?. I guess, Shoot down an AWAC is not impossible task.

and you got thanks for it.


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## PakShaheen79

danger007 said:


> what if Pakistani AWACS shot down. JF-17



And with which weapon in IAF arsenal you are going to do that?


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## danger007

PakShaheen79 said:


> And with which weapon in IAF arsenal you are going to do that?



what a dumb question. Not with stones sir.


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## abdulbarijan

danger007 said:


> lol that place reserve to you only. i just raised a point. You people depending on AWACS support and talking it will nullify IAF advantage. So i just mention what if AWAC shot down?. I guess, Shoot down an AWAC is not impossible task.
> 
> and you got thanks for it.


For that place there are some other people too but unfortunately they are in the "state of denial"
well you do remember the basis of why you declared me a "fanboy"
let me refresh your memory



danger007 said:


> Again ... provide source else stop talking BS.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------
> 
> in that time PAF F-16's doesn't have BVR capabilities but MKI.  lol


but then again you dont need proof huh...
just because your side didn't accept the incident ever occured you guys want more sources..
but when the situations are reversed you put out pathetic one liners without considering how difficult it would be..
you really consider that PAF will put of such an important asset with no support??
and dont the EW capabilities come in handy against long ranged missiles
plus your best shot at accomplishing that would be by going in to Pak's airspace well guess what there is a professional airforce waiting for something to eat for dinner....
and I heard they like roasted MKI's with a little hint of Indian jealousy ...


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## MilSpec

Windjammer said:


> *Found this on the web, makes interesting reading and should clear some cob webs.*
> 
> *The event*
> At 11:30 am PST [Pakistan Standard Time], 3 Indian Mirage 2000-H fighter jets crossed the line of control, intruding in airspace over Pakistani side of the disputed valle-----------------------blah blah blah
> *
> blah blah blah Abdullah Saad[/url]*


*

now posting blogs, are we?*


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## Windjammer

majesticpankaj said:


> @windjammer -- don't post the blog which do not even mention the date of incident



It may not be down your ally but let me assure you it's a well documented incident.




DARKY said:


> The writer says that the jets were intercepted within 2-3 mile in Pakistani air space..... at the same times entertains a possiblility of the intruders being escorted by the PAF jets.
> 
> The sorties was a clinical one required to record technical data and have ground mapping for any SAM site present across the border.
> 
> In any case incursion is made with atleast one wing man.
> 
> at the event of war there would be more than scores of such incursions taking places every hour... and the numbers would change from 2 Su 30 against 3 f-16 and 3 F-7s to 5 Su 30 against 2 F-16s and 2 F-7 which would be downed pretty early most of the times.
> 
> The main concern for the Lahore incursion would've been to gain the data over TPS-77 Radar installed there... the radar can be countered by the use of Kh-31 by blinding it or brahmos by destroying it in no time... both well within reach from well inside the Indian border.


Albeit, I have been understandably advised not to discuss on this incident....since this is an open forum, you have the right to form your opinion...what to say of Judge, Jury and the Executioner. Briefly just like to add that subsequently it was discovered that the SU-30s were fully armed and their intention was to attack some alleged training camp in Murid- K near Lahore. A perfect Hud shot was shown to the dismay of Mike Mullen. One wonders, had the PAF pilot pressed the famous red button, a great many myths would have come crashing to the ground. !!

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## Windjammer

AmberDutt said:


> Like the one about the invincibility of PAF Falcons ???



There is nothing invincible about the PAF pilot, he was defending against an aggressor.


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## PakShaheen79

danger007 said:


> what a dumb question. Not with stones sir.



Uh, I thought you guys atleast would able to answer this question.

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 PM ----------




AmberDutt said:


> Like the one about the invincibility of PAF Falcons  ???



Yeah, Yeah ... same invincibility kept the mighty IAF at bay in 2008 and put all surgical strike mantra to an end.


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## danger007

Windjammer said:


> Yea,.. since this kind of nonsense floats your boat.!!!



Probably you didnt read for what i commented like that. anyways get back to topic.


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## PakShaheen79

Any confirm date of MRCA announcement. If order has been split between Rafale and EF, what would be the composition?


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## Windjammer

majesticpankaj said:


> Com on guys..back on topic.. and please stop entertaining the self praising BS blogs



Since there is no cure to self denial.....indeed back to topic.!!


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> as per your analysis all the points again goes to IAF
> 
> Let me ask you a question -- why Israel which is encircled by arabs has been so successful against arabs ?



Better training and tactics... 
Since in the early Israeli arab wars.. the arabs had roughly similar levels of equipment.


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## danger007

Windjammer said:


> Since there is no cure to self denial.....indeed back to topic.!!



such a ignorant . who will believe such comments without Credible source. You are no representative to PAF or not even media published about MKI intrusion. But you are considering news from blogs ???


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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> such a ignorant . who will believe such comments without Credible source. You are no representative to PAF or not even media published about MKI intrusion. But you are considering news from blogs ???



funny.. I heard that too, not from a blog though.. a human being whose job it was to know such things.


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## abdulbarijan

danger007 said:


> i don't want to get brain washed.
> 
> 
> lol you made my day. so your air force not able to provide food to your pilots...


LOL!! sure go and divert the topic ... you yourself speak on BS claims and yet the biggest claim of yours is that your going to get our AWACS now how much proof have you given on that ???
It seems your only talk...
As for getting brainwashed...referring you back to what u said and then contradicted is brain washing ...then what can I say..
as for PAF and their food u do know the term of hunting for dinner...


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> Better training and tactics...
> Since in the early Israeli arab wars.. the arabs had roughly similar levels of equipment.



Having said that Israel is at serious disadvantage since it is surrounded by arabs and being a smaller country.. any strike from arabs can cripple operational capabilities of Israel in few days... but still they can't do anything against her. why ??

This is because, along with the factor you ave mentioned is overwhelming superiority of Israel in term of numbers. If the same numbers have arabs they can do the same thing 

and now fit this equation in India pak scenario -- we enjoy at both front -- operational capability and in numbers and now also add technology


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## VSS

On topic.... Pakistan has no answer for MCRA. No match in quality...No match in quantity.

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## danger007

Santro said:


> funny.. I heard that too, not from a blog though.. a human being whose job it was to know such things.



We(India-Pakistan) don't believe each other. that's why we fought wars frequently. may be we can't. so only im asking credible source.


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## Windjammer

sandy_3126 said:


> Indian members are often handed infractions for off topic rants... seems like windjammer has immunity... congrats



So by your logic the topic is ....whether China will jump into an India/Pakistan war.!!! please continue.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Since there is no cure to self denial.....indeed back to topic.!!



On topic.. The changes in the ASR regarding the MMRCA would have tackled any procurement. The aircraft are fairly well known to the PAF regardless. 
Considering the planned increase in the FC-20 purchase and the improvement plans for the air defense systems. The overall increase in threat posed by the IAF seems to have been lowered.
However, what do you suppose could be done on the southern front to ameliorate the threat a potential Rafale purchase would bring(along with the new french weapons)

---------- Post added at 05:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 AM ----------




danger007 said:


> We(India-Pakistan) don't believe each other. that's why we fought wars frequently. may be we can't. so only im asking credible source.



Im not asking you to believe it, just let me believe what I want to.. instead of repeating the same mantra of us Pakistanis being "delusional".. agree to disagree...instead of going about like parrots.


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## danger007

Santro said:


> On topic.. The changes in the ASR regarding the MMRCA would have tackled any procurement. The aircraft are fairly well known to the PAF regardless.
> Considering the planned increase in the FC-20 purchase and the improvement plans for the air defense systems. The overall increase in threat posed by the IAF seems to have been lowered.
> However, what do you suppose could be done on the southern front to ameliorate the threat a potential Rafale purchase would bring(along with the new french weapons)
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Im not asking you to believe it, just let me believe what I want to.. instead of repeating the same mantra of us Pakistanis being "delusional".. agree to disagree...instead of going about like parrots.



i think talking about MKI intrusion without any proof is just trolling.He repeating that statement again and again. so i asked him source. anyways i ll get back to topic.


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## PakShaheen79

Winjammer and Santro,

Please guys, come on why you are hurting the feelings of our guests here. MKI is their pride and this incident really put that pride in questionable position. Everyone know the incident and also know that Indians would never accept it.


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## abdulbarijan

danger007 said:


> I said -If awacs shot down-
> 
> i am kidding bro i got what you mean.


LOL!! ok now your falling back on "Ifs" and "buts"
like u say to every one else provide proof...but that doesn't apply on you does it...when asked how you go diverting the topic so thats enough of that ...

*Back to the topic of MMRCA...
What im interested in is that FC-20 can also act like a "JFT" for us,I mean I dont think that China would mind us integrating the likes of A-darter,MAR-1,RAAD cruise missile etc on it...
And one more thing can one guide the likes of AMRAAMS and SD-10B's using AWACS through data linking??*


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> LOL!! ok now your falling back on "Ifs" and "buts"
> like u say to every one else provide proof...but that doesn't apply on you does it...when asked how you go diverting the topic so thats enough of that ...
> 
> Back to the topic of MMRCA...
> What im interested in is that FC-20 can also act like a "JFT" for us,I mean I dont think that China would mind us integrating the likes of A-darter,MAR-1,RAAD cruise missile etc on it...



so when you gonna start procuring FC-20 and in what numbers ? Is FC-20 operational ?


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## danger007

abdulbarijan said:


> LOL!! ok now your falling back on "Ifs" and "buts"
> like u say to every one else provide proof...but that doesn't apply on you does it...when asked how you go diverting the topic so thats enough of that ...
> 
> *Back to the topic of MMRCA...
> What im interested in is that FC-20 can also act like a "JFT" for us,I mean I dont think that China would mind us integrating the likes of A-darter,MAR-1,RAAD cruise missile etc on it...
> And one more thing can one guide the likes of AMRAAMS and SD-10B's using AWACS through data linking??*


 

read my post #1286 



Jungibaaz said:


> put it into context.... give the F-16 AWACS support, give it the range of combat against an MKI similar to that of which and Indo-Pak war would allow it. F-16s suddenly become a formidable fighting force, they can defend the airspace against MKI very well.
> 
> PAF hasn't got involved in the numbers game for obvious reasons, you may see F-16s flying in groups where one is painting and feeding the armed F-16s, one F-16 dedicated for electronic attack.... etc.



what if Pakistani AWACS shot down. JF-17



i want to see TYPHOON in IAF. damn beast.


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> so when you gonna start procuring FC-20 and in what numbers ? Is FC-20 operational ?


If the MMRRCA specific rafale and EF-2000 are operational then so is the FC-20...
I mean if you consider the EF-2000 and rafale operational while the MMRCA specific fighters requires upgrades like AESA etc....... if those are operational than so is the FC-20


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> so when you gonna start procuring FC-20 and in what numbers ? Is FC-20 operational ?



It will be coming in the same timeframe is the MMRCA.. tell me.. is the MMRCA operational?


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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> On topic.. The changes in the ASR regarding the MMRCA would have tackled any procurement. The aircraft are fairly well known to the PAF regardless.
> Considering the planned increase in the FC-20 purchase and the improvement plans for the air defense systems. The overall increase in threat posed by the IAF seems to have been lowered.
> However, what do you suppose could be done on the southern front to ameliorate the threat a potential Rafale purchase would bring(along with the new french weapons)



As i said else where, PAF can field say five JF-17 for the price of a single Rafale, say a package of four Rafael is sent to attack the Southern sector, the are countered by a multi dimensional defence from Navy and PAF, there is a good chance to neutralise the aggressor, for the same effort PAF can field a dozen or more JF-17, even a 50% attrition would still leave enough firepower to cause some serious damage. What do you say.


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## GURU DUTT

Santro said:


> It will be coming in the same timeframe is the MMRCA.. tell me.. is the MMRCA operational?



Kind sir kindly please tell me how was my last post off topic & why was it deleated i had only given a answer asked by windjammer ,thanks kindly do respond thanks agaon SIR


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> It will be coming in the same timeframe is the MMRCA.. tell me.. is the MMRCA operational?



U didn't tell us about the quantity.

Typhoon and Rafale both are operational aircraft in many airforce. FC-20 is not operational only her prototype is flying


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## danger007

Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Pakistan Air Force: 36 on order (As of February 2011) for delivery in 2012, with an eventual requirement for 150

I think J-10 B coming to PAF 2014 onwards but wiki says 2012.


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> If the MMRRCA specific rafale and EF-2000 are operational then so is the FC-20...
> I mean if you consider the EF-2000 and rafale operational while the MMRCA specific fighters require AESA etc if those are operational and considered operational by you than so is FC-20



even in there present configuration they are better than Superhornet and f-16 block 60 with AESA


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> As i said else where, PAF can field say five JF-17 for the price of a single Rafale, say a package of four Rafael is sent to attack the Southern sector, the are countered by a multi dimensional defence from Navy and PAF, there is a good chance to neutralise the aggressor, for the same effort PAF can field a dozen or more JF-17, even a 50% attrition would still leave enough firepower to cause some serious damage. What do you say.



Considering planned improvements in the JF and the overall PAF "Net".. it may very well be possible that by the time the MMRCA comes into a credible force.. a JF-17 force based in the south , along with the Jacobabad Block 52 sq.. might form a potent force to prevent any IAF force from achieving their objectives. Even with 80% attrition, if the IAF force was unable to get through.. job is done.

---------- Post added at 05:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:54 AM ----------




majesticpankaj said:


> U didn't tell us about the quantity.
> 
> Typhoon and Rafale both are operational aircraft in many airforce. FC-20 is not operational only her prototype is flying



I dont care about them being operational or not.
When are the MMRCA coming? stick to the topic...
IS the MMRCA for the IAF operational or not?

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## danger007

Windjammer said:


> As i said else where, PAF can field say five JF-17 for the price of a single Rafale, say a package of four Rafael is sent to attack the Southern sector, the are countered by a multi dimensional defence from Navy and PAF, there is a good chance to neutralise the aggressor, for the same effort PAF can field a dozen or more JF-17, even a 50% attrition would still leave enough firepower to cause some serious damage. What do you say.



Probably we will induct 196 Typhoon or Rafale and you will induct 150 to 200 JF-17. India having force multiplier advantage not Pakistan.


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## MilSpec

Windjammer said:


> As i said else where, PAF can field say five JF-17 for the price of a single Rafale, say a package of four Rafael is sent to attack the Southern sector, the are countered by a multi dimensional defence from Navy and PAF, there is a good chance to neutralise the aggressor, for the same effort PAF can field a dozen or more JF-17, even a 50% attrition would still leave enough firepower to cause some serious damage. What do you say.



very interesting ... by same logic.. 
>how many JF 17 does PAF plan to field 
Shouldn't IAF assault be fielding 2 a/c for every PAF aircraft? cos we got the numbers

lets try to play with the same numbers what if its 6 packages in the southern sector.. each package with 8 rafales and 6 MKI's what then ... would love to hear your take

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## majesticpankaj

Santro
I dont care about them being operational or not.
When are the MMRCA coming? stick to the topic...
IS the MMRCA for the IAF operational or not?[/QUOTE said:


> I am sticking with the topic I asked you about the quantity of FC-20 you will be having which you are putting as a defence against MCRA
> 
> And if you have gone through my post I did mention that IAF will be confident of MCRA after only 2018-19
> Because it will take her time to understand the platform. Already IAF has done extensively evaluation of MCRA on various parameters. Can't say the same about PAF because FC-20 is again not operational

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## majesticpankaj

Windjammer said:


> As i said else where, PAF can field say five JF-17 for the price of a single Rafale, say a package of four Rafael is sent to attack the Southern sector, the are countered by a multi dimensional defence from Navy and PAF, there is a good chance to neutralise the aggressor, for the same effort PAF can field a dozen or more JF-17, even a 50% attrition would still leave enough firepower to cause some serious damage. What do you say.



 epic failure... Defence budget of india is bigger than the whole federal budget of pakistan.

we will have the quantity and quality. we will induct the second best fighter unlike PAf who is making compromises


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## DESERT FIGHTER

danger007 said:


> Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force: 36 on order (As of February 2011) for delivery in 2012, with an eventual requirement for 150
> 
> I think J-10 B coming to PAF 2014 onwards but wiki says 2012.


 
PAF ordered 36 in 2005-6... another sqd in 2011... total number on order as of now is 58...even PShameem has confirmed it... while it would be delivered in a year or too..

We will field 250-300 JF-17 blks!


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> I am sticking with the topic I asked you about the quantity of FC-20 you will be having which you are putting as a defence against MCRA
> 
> And if you have gone through my post I did mention that IAF will be confident of MCRA after only 2018-19
> Because it will take her time to understand the platform. Already IAF has done extensively evaluation of MCRA on various parameters. Can't say the same about PAF because FC-20 is again not operational



Ill ask again.. is the MMRCA operational?
If it is NOT operational, then why is the FC-20's operational status a moot point? 
The fact (which is btw on the open internet,even on this forum..verified through PhOtOgraphs).. that the J-10B which is to form the basis for the FC-20 is going through the paces.. you ignored as you conveniently posted " FC-20 is not operational only her prototype is flying". So when neither platform is operational. Why is it even a point to make for you? The Fc-20 may not be operational, neither is the MMRCA... case closed.


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## majesticpankaj

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> PAF ordered 36 in 2005-6... another sqd in 2011... total number on order as of now is 58...even PShameem has confirmed it... while it would be delivered in a year or too..
> 
> We will field 250-300 JF-17 blks!



I can assure you that you won't be fielding FC-20 before 2015 -- mark my word.

Reasons

1. PLAAF has her own huge requirement
2. FC-20 is not operational yet
3. as I mentioned earlier after having established assembly lines India will get her first squadron in august 2015 

what makes you think that FC-20 will be delivered to pakistan so soon ??


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## GURU DUTT

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> PAF ordered 36 in 2005-6... another sqd in 2011... total number on order as of now is 58...even PShameem has confirmed it... while it would be delivered in a year or too..
> 
> *We will field 250-300 JF-17 blks*!



and whats the time frame last i heared someone said paf is not ordering more than 150 JF-17's any way when they will come what will be indian strenth(mki,mig-29UPG,mirage2000UPG+MRCA) thanks .


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> Ill ask again.. is the MMRCA operational?
> If it is NOT operational, then why is the FC-20's operational status a moot point?
> The fact (which is btw on the open internet,even on this forum..verified through PhOtOgraphs).. that the J-10B which is to form the basis for the FC-20 is going through the paces.. you ignored as you conveniently posted " FC-20 is not operational only her prototype is flying". So when neither platform is operational. Why is it even a point to make for you? The Fc-20 may not be operational, neither is the MMRCA... case closed.



come on mate --- MCRA is already a established platform -- many airforces around the world using it -- there is no issues with the compability of system-- you are not assembling a PC. let the first operational FC-20 gets induct in PLAAF. 

The point I want to make is MCRA will be decided in few month and we will surely have the possession of her in 2015 but can we say the same thing regarding FC_20. NO -- why ?


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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> Considering planned improvements in the JF and the overall PAF "Net".. it may very well be possible that by the time the MMRCA comes into a credible force.. a JF-17 force based in the south , along with the Jacobabad Block 52 sq.. might form a potent force to prevent any IAF force from achieving their objectives. Even with 80% attrition, if the IAF force was unable to get through.. job is done.


The PAF is in a win win situation, basically since it's already well into advance training on the Block-52s, the JF-17s already in squadron service, not to mention polishing up it's skills in the WOT strikes....I say by the time the MMRCA is operational, PAF will be ready and waiting with even more potent systems.


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## danger007

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> PAF ordered 36 in 2005-6... another sqd in 2011... total number on order as of now is 58...even PShameem has confirmed it... while it would be delivered in a year or too..
> 
> We will field 250-300 JF-17 blks!



i don't know about 2005 but i heard only 36.


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> come on mate --- MCRA is already a established platform -- many airforces around the world using it -- there is no issues with the compability of system-- you are not assembling a PC. let the first operational FC-20 gets induct in PLAAF.
> 
> *The point I want to make is MCRA will be decided in few month and we will surely have the possession of her in 2015 but can we say the same thing regarding FC_20. NO* -- why ?



How do you know .. NO??


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> The PAF is in a win win situation, basically since it's already well into advance training on the Block-52s, the JF-17s already in squadron service, not to mention polishing up it's skills in the WOT strikes....I say by the time the MMRCA is operational, PAF will be ready and waiting with even more potent systems.



Yet its best not to underestimate, it is a good omen that the PAF has had its time with MMRCA contenders. Ironically, those that the PAF had no idea about considering their flight characteristics and known abilities were eliminated(F-18SH,Mig-35).


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> How do you know .. NO??



As i stated so many times --- let it get first inducted in PLAAF

But I would like to know how can you say that FC-20 will be inducted in PAF within a specified time frame (whatever it is) with SURETY


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## Manticore

majesticpankaj said:


> U didn't tell us about the quantity.
> 
> Typhoon and Rafale both are operational aircraft in many airforce. FC-20 is not operational only her prototype is flying



eurofighter came in trenches [trenche3 still not operational?], rafale's initial batch was for a2a and not specialized to a2g at the beginning ,by the same token j10 has come as j10, j10a,and now j10b -- so by saying j10 is not operational is hogwash

the varients are not entirely different fighters which need extra independent 8 years to be produced---remain in the same wt class with some modifications carried out by the same designers team , so the operational experience of the initial model is naturally counted in the development of the next varient


the inital batch might be of 2 or 3 squdrons worth, however the total order of j10 would be higher based on the numbers india inducts at the end


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## majesticpankaj

ANTIBODY said:


> eurofighter came in trenches, rafale's initial batch was for a2a and not specialized to a2g at the beginning ,by the same token j10 has come as j10, j10a,and now j10b -- so by saying j10 is not operational is hogwash



Let me ask you a direct question --- IS FC-20 operational in PLAAF not talking about j10 and j10a.

Current config of Rafale and typhoon are better than SH_18 and F-16 blk 60 with AESA


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> come on mate --- MCRA is already a established platform -- many airforces around the world using it -- there is no issues with the compability of system-- you are not assembling a PC. let the first operational FC-20 gets induct in PLAAF.
> 
> The point I want to make is MCRA will be decided in few month and we will surely have the possession of her in 2015 but can we say the same thing regarding FC_20. NO -- why ?


U have ran out of reasons the fact is how do you consider EF-2000 , Rafale established platforms while Supposedly J-10 is not...PLAAF operates J-10's in No.
Now I know you will go like you always have that only prototypes are there of FC-20 
let me ask u this what is 
FC-20 ----An upgraded J-10
Is J-10 in service ---Yes
FC-20---No
Indian specific MMRCA EF-2000/Rafale----Upgraded models of EF-2000 and rafale
Are EF-2000 and rafale operational---yes
are indian specific MMRCA operational----NO...


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> As i stated so many times --- let it get first inducted in PLAAF
> 
> But I would like to know how can you say that FC-20 will be inducted in PAF within a specified time frame (whatever it is) with SURETY



Till the august of 2003.. no one was sure that the Jf-17 would even fly.. 
No one was sure of a MAR-1 purchase till the C-130's carrying the first lot arrived and the PAF gave the go ahead to Mectron to publish the news. 
This is Pakistan, I can tell you with SURETY that we can NEVER be SURE about military purchases or activities in Pakistan.
There is a LOT more happening, than the FC-20 and JF-17.. But that will never be said, or revealed till appropriate. 
The IAF probably knows.. or they dont.. either way.. only time will tell.

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## MilSpec

Santro said:


> Yet its best not to underestimate, it is a good omen that the PAF has had its time with MMRCA contenders. Ironically, those that the PAF had no idea about considering their flight characteristics and known abilities were eliminated(F-18SH,Mig-35).



SO paf knows the abilities of rafales because they flew in exercise with them... but then you have had several exercises with USAF too.. so i am guessing PAF knows everything about american inventory tooo... so we had limited choice.. PAF seems to be cognizant of every euro pen/american platform available .. hence we had to go with the ones that just might have the tiny chance of maybe beating a f16 in the future as according to many experts here we do not posses that capability due to our poor piloting skills and large rcs... 

What would be a healthy number of FC 20's that PAF might field towards countering MMRCA...


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## majesticpankaj

abdulbarijan said:


> U have ran out of reasons the fact is how do you consider EF-2000 , Rafale established platforms while Supposedly J-10 is not...PLAAF operates J-10's in No.
> Now I know you will go like you always have that only prototypes are there of FC-20
> let me ask u this what is
> FC-20 ----An upgraded J-10
> Is J-10 in service ---Yes
> FC-20---No
> Indian specific MMRCA EF-2000/Rafale----Upgraded models of EF-2000 and rafale
> Are EF-2000 and rafale operational---yes
> are indian specific MMRCA operational----NO...



Buddy-- the point that I want to make is

Development of Typhoon and Rafale are well ahead of FC-20 
India specific changes will be ready by 2014 -- why you think that we will be getting the delivery so late ?
and current config of both of them are way ahead of even american jets. You should appreciate the facts


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## VSS

JF 17 can't match MRCA. This fighter comes with certain shortcomings that can't be sorted out by upgrades. JF 17 is good enough for certain duties but taking on MRCA in A2A is different ball game. Its good to be optimistic but in matter of defense you should have realistic approach.


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## majesticpankaj

Santro said:


> Till the august of 2003.. no one was sure that the Jf-17 would even fly..
> No one was sure of a MAR-1 purchase till the C-130's carrying the first lot arrived and the PAF gave the go ahead to Mectron to publish the news.
> This is Pakistan, I can tell you with SURETY that we can NEVER be SURE about military purchases or activities in Pakistan.
> There is a LOT more happening, than the FC-20 and JF-17.. But that will never be said, or revealed till appropriate.
> The IAF probably knows.. or they dont.. either way.. only time will tell.



I have to rest my case as your assumptions are based on speculations nothing concrete. 
If one believes what you are saying let us tell the options that you have apart from j10 b and jf-17 -- thanks

One more thing if you believe that Pakistan knows the inside out of Typhoon and Rafale by the same logic we know all about F-16 over which we had done extensive evaluation even the better one that you have.


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## Dr. Strangelove

majesticpankaj said:


> Let me ask you a direct question --- IS *FC-20* operational in PLAAF not talking about j10 and j10a.
> 
> Current config of Rafale and typhoon are better than SH_18 and F-16 blk 60 with AESA


fc 20 is an export version for paf

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## majesticpankaj

wasm95 said:


> fc 20 is an export version for paf



sorry...I meant j10 b


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pakistan should never ever show off her purchases to the world like india..... let them underestimate us.... But unfortunately alot of newbie morons come n leak out stuff... like tht guys who revealed abt nuclear capable submarines,c-602,MAR-1,A-100 etc etc.... things should remain hidden... it adds to the element... as Chuck noris say..."the element of surprise"..


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## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> I have to rest my case as your assumptions are based on speculations nothing concrete.
> If one believes what you are saying let us tell the options that you have apart from j10 b and jf-17 -- thanks
> 
> One more thing if you believe that Pakistan knows the inside out of Typhoon and Rafale by the same logic we know all about F-16 over which we had done extensive evaluation even the better one that you have.



Assumptions for you, concrete for me.. I agree that we disagree.
Move on.


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## majesticpankaj

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Pakistan should never ever show off her purchases to the world like india..... let them underestimate us.... But unfortunately alot of newbie morons come n leak out stuff... like tht guys who revealed abt nuclear capable submarines,c-602,MAR-1,A-100 etc etc.... things should remain hidden... it adds to the element... as Chuck noris say..."the element of surprise"..



the same can be said about India, russia and israel cooperation


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## GURU DUTT

Santro said:


> Assumptions for you, concrete for me.. I agree that we disagree.
> Move on.


My Kind Senior SIR ,

Sorry being off topic but why did you deleated my posts & not answerd then ,thanks .


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> Buddy-- the point that I want to make is
> 
> Development of Typhoon and Rafale are well ahead of FC-20
> India specific changes will be ready by 2014 -- why you think that we will be getting the delivery so late ?
> and current config of both of them are way ahead of even american jets. You should appreciate the facts


 
sorry to bust your bubble but the production of J-10B is likely to start by the end of this year
while your changes will be ready by 2014..We have evaluated Rafale,we have trained against the EF-2000 in anatolian eagle...we have some idea of the capabilities of your future jets...
And I appreciate the facts no doubt EF-2000 and rafale are excellent platforms 
but dont count us out just yet..who would have thought that JFT dubbed by some as a simple replacement for F-7's would turn out to be something it is today...
U should expect the same for FC-20 ... It will be the best platform we will have and thats it

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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> Yet its best not to underestimate, it is a good omen that the PAF has had its time with MMRCA contenders. Ironically, those that the PAF had no idea about considering their flight characteristics and known abilities were eliminated(F-18SH,Mig-35).



Blessing in disguise i would say, PAF was fortunate to check out both the EF and Rafael...in fact gave the EF a good run for whatever it's worth, we also have the Saudi connection. Rafael, albeit looks the works but Being a launch customer for a new system must be difficult, even the Grippen would have been unknown territory to the PAF.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

majesticpankaj said:


> the same can be said about India, russia and israel cooperation



Even the purchase of a radio is published n boasted by indians.. no offence.


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## MilSpec

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Even the purchase of a radio is published n boasted by indians.. no offence.



self delete ...........


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## Manas

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, I have been understandably advised not to discuss on this incident....since this is an open forum, you have the right to form your opinion...what to say of Judge, Jury and the Executioner. Briefly just like to add that subsequently it was discovered that the SU-30s were fully armed and their intention was to attack some alleged training camp in Murid- K near Lahore. A perfect Hud shot was shown to the dismay of Mike Mullen. *One wonders, had the PAF pilot pressed the famous red button, a great many myths would have come crashing to the ground. !!*



Wasn't every newspaper and propaganda source inside pakistan saying that pakistan was winning on every battlefront against India till a day before the surrender of Dhaka in 1971 ??

Living on propaganda , denials other routine feel good stuff is everyday ,isn't it??


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## majesticpankaj

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Even the purchase of a radio is published n boasted by indians.. no offence.



Sadly.. you are an ignorant

---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------




abdulbarijan said:


> sorry to bust your bubble but the production of J-10B is likely to start by the end of this year
> while your changes will be ready by 2014..We have evaluated Rafale,we have trained against the EF-2000 in anatolian eagle...we have some idea of the capabilities of your future jets...
> And I appreciate the facts no doubt EF-2000 and rafale are excellent platforms
> but dont count us out just yet..who would have thought that JFT dubbed by some as a simple replacement for F-7's would turn out to be something it is today...
> U should expect the same for FC-20 ... It will be the best platform we will have and thats it



Yaa.. lets wait and watch when J10 - B will get her FOC

Didn't we have evaluated f-16 blk 60 ?? 

Jf-17 is just a PDf phenomenon nothing else.. keep boasting .. no issues for us

Fc-20 would be the best for you not for us.


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## Windjammer

Manas said:


> Wasn't every newspaper and propaganda source inside pakistan saying that pakistan was winning on every battlefront against India till a day before the surrender of Dhaka in 1971 ??



Kind of before I could read.!!


> Living on propaganda , denials other routine feel good stuff is everyday ,isn't it??


Yea, on another forum, once the MKI was being described as, Invincible, untouchable, indestructible.....after a couple went down...the tone changed to something....so what....even the F-22 has crashed... denial is the very word indeed.


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## Paan Singh

@indians here,

stop focusing on pakistan,china outnumbered us in many fields.and mmrca here is for china not for pakistan.
we had enough for pakistan.They had best chance in 65,nothing happened nor will happen..so keep track on eastern border.
They will keep purchasing as per indian purchases.


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## abdulbarijan

majesticpankaj said:


> Sadly.. you are an ignorant
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Yaa.. lets wait and watch when J10 - B will get her FOC





> Huzhigeng recently made another appearance on CJDBY, and brought some more insider information. For those of you that don't know who he is, he works for the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, the design bureau for J-17, JF-17, J-10 and J-20. It looks like development in the next year will be pretty smooth ride. Without further delay, here is what he said.
> 
> When asked about test flights of J-10B, he said:
> &#24180;&#24213;&#21069;&#35201;&#20837;&#24441;&#30340;&#12290;&#12290;&#24403;&#28982;&#35201;&#27426;&#36814;&#24635;&#35013;&#22836;&#22836;&#20102;&#12290;&#31532;&#19968;&#25209;1X&#26550;&#12290;&#23558;&#35013;&#22791;&#26576;&#29579;&#29260;&#24072;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#26576;&#24072;&#30340;&#20154;&#24050;&#32463;&#26377;&#19981;&#23569;&#39134;&#34892;&#21592;&#26469; &#21040;&#25104;&#39134;&#20102;&#12290;&#24180;&#24213;&#21069;&#23601;&#26377;&#20960;&#26550;&#35201;&#39134;&#36208;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;
> "It (J-10B) will enter service at the end of the year, thus military officials came to visit. The first batch will have more than 10 planes, and sent to a first tier unit. That unit had already send quite a few pilots to CAC, and few will fly home with their new toys before the end of the year."
> *(Posted by S10)*





> Didn't we have evaluated f-16 blk 60 ??


Im talking about FC-20..when did u test that out.. 



> Jf-17 is just a PDf phenomenon nothing else.. keep boasting .. no issues for us


keep believing that....Its the biggest favour of yours 



> Fc-20 would be the best for you not for us.


yes..I didn't say anything else..but FC-20 will be enough for us to deal with you guys..
but then again isn't that an assumption and a speculation on ur part since no one except China and Pakistan know about the jet and how good it is...
and PAF does know about rafale and EF-2000 ..


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## DARKY

Windjammer said:


> It may not be down your ally but let me assure you it's a well documented incident.
> 
> 
> 
> Albeit, I have been understandably advised not to discuss on this incident....since this is an open forum, you have the right to form your opinion...what to say of Judge, Jury and the Executioner. Briefly just like to add that subsequently it was discovered that the SU-30s were fully armed and their intention was to attack some alleged training camp in Murid- K near Lahore. A perfect Hud shot was shown to the dismay of Mike Mullen. One wonders, had the PAF pilot pressed the famous red button, a great many myths would have come crashing to the ground. !!



One of those endless would've done that and should've done that and the imaginary concepts about imaginary air encounters... Su 30 also have a red button and that's for its defense... and if it was fully armed it could've also pressed another red button and indeed brought some of the myths crashing to the ground... and that would've been published in all big and small dailies overthere with HD shots.


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## Paan Singh

Windjammer said:


> Kind of before I could read.!!
> Yea, on another forum, once the MKI was being described as, Invincible, untouchable, indestructible.....after a couple went down...the tone changed to something....so what....even the F-22 has crashed... denial is the very word indeed.



No body says MKI is invincible.


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## tjpf

abdulbarijan said:


> Im talking about FC-20..when did u test that out..
> 
> 
> keep believing that....Its the biggest favour of yours
> 
> 
> *yes..I didn't say anything else..but FC-20 will be enough for us to deal with you guys..*



keep underestimating us like everytime in the past.
It's indeed a blessing for India.


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## abdulbarijan

tjpf said:


> keep underestimating us like everytime in the past.
> It's indeed a blessing for India.


underestimating??
we arn't the ones calling ur jets forum phenomenons are we??
we might call MKI over hyped about or something similar etc but there is one mistake PAF will not make and that is underestimating an opponent bigger than us ,so unfortunately for u that blessing is not coming any time soon


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## tjpf

abdulbarijan said:


> underestimating??
> we arn't the ones calling ur jets forum phenomenons are we??



No you are undermining our jets.
e.g. JF17 with low rcs with AWACS can take down MKI!!!! We also have AWACS please don't forget that.
Some pakistani and Indian members have had sane discussion on this but mostly its rant and self loathing post from Pakistanis about over performance of JF17 against MKI.


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## DARKY

PakShaheen79 said:


> And with which weapon in IAF arsenal you are going to do that?

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## danger007

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Pakistan should never ever show off her purchases to the world like india..... let them underestimate us.... But unfortunately alot of newbie morons come n leak out stuff... like tht guys who revealed abt nuclear capable submarines,c-602,MAR-1,A-100 etc etc.... things should remain hidden... it adds to the element... as Chuck noris say..."the element of surprise"..



Bro don't be offensive, pakistan don't have choices to choose like India have. Why you are thinking India doing show off, may be world interested to know Indian purchase.


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## Storm Force

We are all in for a SHOCK and wake up call.

In just over a Month the IAF are about to sign on the dotted line for biggest fighter deal that EUROPE has ever concluded.

WE ARE TALKING $20 BILLION. These aere sort of numbers that will send shivers down potential advesaries spine.

WE are not talking a meek mild intial order of 30-40 planes we are talking 189 fighters 

We are talking AESA radar, meteore BVR missles and 5th generation avinonics ALL WITH TOT all with license build facility in INDIA...

The TYPHOON is coming we are beginning to see what a $2 trillion GDP means in terms of purchasing power... 

However i believe the bulk of these awesome fighters will be based in the NORTHERN bases and not against PAF in the WEST. 

PS 

To those who keep pointing out PAK THUNDERS & AWACS let me give you a equation 

270 su30mki, mirage2000, mig29m/k with 3 Phalcon AWACS versis 100 JFT/F16/52/MLU with saab awacs x 4 = WHAT ????

Answer 3-1 favour of india at a minimum in fire power 

POSSIBLY 4-1 DUE to IAF having the better AWACS and better marquee fighter...

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## tjpf

Storm Force said:


> We are all in for a SHOCK and wake up call.
> 
> In just over a Month the IAF are about to sign on the dotted line for biggest fighter deal that EUROPE has ever concluded.
> 
> WE ARE TALKING $20 BILLION. These aere sort of numbers that will send shivers down potential advesaries spine.
> 
> WE are not talking a meek mild intial order of 30-40 planes we are talking 189 fighters
> 
> We are talking AESA radar, meteore BVR missles and 5th generation avinonics ALL WITH TOT all with license build facility in INDIA...
> 
> The TYPHOON is coming we are beginning to see what a $2 trillion GDP means in terms of purchasing power...
> 
> However i believe the bulk of these awesome fighters will be based in the NORTHERN bases and not against PAF in the WEST.
> 
> PS
> 
> *To those who keep pointing out PAK THUNDERS & AWACS let me give you a equation
> 
> 270 su30mki, mirage2000, mig29m/k with 3 Phalcon AWACS versis 100 JFT/F16/52/MLU with saab awacs x 4 = WHAT ????
> 
> Answer 3-1 favour of india at a minimum in fire power
> 
> POSSIBLY 4-1 DUE to IAF having the better AWACS and better marquee fighter...*




you can shout as loud as you want but they believe otherwise


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## Areesh

PakShaheen79 said:


> And with which weapon in IAF arsenal you are going to do that?


 
Wit that weapon which has a "shining" and "illustrious" development history like LCA and isn't even operational with the the producing country yet.


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## danger007

Areesh said:


> Wit that weapon which has a "shining" and "illustrious" development history like LCA and isn't even operational with the the producing country yet.



We know who is living delusional life. atleast we tried, getting result even slowly, and you are just commenting on us. keep it up.


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## tjpf

Areesh said:


> Wit that weapon which has a "shining" and "illustrious" development history like LCA and isn't even operational with the the producing country yet.



You are chest thumping with JF17 blk2 and FC-20 which are yet to arrive, don't you believe you can take down IAF!!!!!

Give us time guys whats the hurry!!!


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## Luftwaffe

tjpf said:


> No you are undermining our jets.
> e.g. JF17 with low rcs with AWACS can take down MKI!!!! We also have AWACS please don't forget that.



Here is question for you. Are you going to send AEW&C into Pakistan Airspace?
Have you heard "Planning for Airspace Control in the Combat Zone" Do you know what it is. I suggest you read this it will clear you mind and understand sending mkis is to take on become hero is not an easy task, over enemy airspace you are going to find it hard the best of the best would come out of such a situation its all about timing its all about how reactive and active the pilots are, the enemy will not just send diamond formation they will make sure they cut you off and take you deep into their airspace to engage which is no point of return it is either you runaway or fight to death. 
http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/jp-doctrine/jp3_52%2895%29.pdf

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## GURU DUTT

Luftwaffe said:


> Here is question for you. Are you going to send AEW&C into Pakistan Airspace?
> Have you heard "Planning for Airspace Control in the Combat Zone" Do you know what it is. I suggest you read this it will clear you mind and understand sending mkis is to take on become hero is not an easy task, over enemy airspace you are going to find it hard the best of the best would come out of such a situation its all about timing its all about how reactive and active the pilots are, the enemy will not just send diamond formation they will make sure they cut you off and take you deep into their airspace to engage which is no point of return it is either you runaway or fight to death.
> http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/jp-doctrine/jp3_52%2895%29.pdf




Pardon my ignorence sir but i think a very senior pakistani member once on this forum explaind that owr awacs are far more superior as they are command & control (they can transmit data directly to fighter planes which saves time)also & yours have do give data to ground control first & then itsguven to the fighter planes & stuff and if owr AWACS say is flying well within(50km)owr border it can still cover all pakistani airspace ,ps forgive me if im wrong and kindly describe the facts according to you Thanks Again .

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## tjpf

Luftwaffe said:


> Here is question for you. Are you going to send AEW&C into Pakistan Airspace?
> Have you heard "Planning for Airspace Control in the Combat Zone" Do you know what it is. I suggest you read this it will clear you mind and understand sending mkis is to take on become hero is not an easy task, over enemy airspace you are going to find it hard the best of the best would come out of such a situation its all about timing its all about how reactive and active the pilots are, the enemy will not just send diamond formation they will make sure they cut you off and take you deep into their airspace to engage which is no point of return it is either you runaway or fight to death.
> http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/jp-doctrine/jp3_52%2895%29.pdf




dude with upgraded Jaguar, Mig 29, Mirage, Navy Mig 29, Bison and of course MKI do you think we will have trouble destroying PAF. Of course won't be easy though but quantity wise and quality wise we are ahead than PAF.
Let AWACS fly near the border with some escort!!!

What would PAF's aim would be to stop the onslaught of IAF (being the aggressor) or destroy our AWACS!!!!!!!

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## Areesh

danger007 said:


> We know who is living delusional life. atleast we tried, getting result even slowly, and you are just commenting on us. keep it up.



Yeah yeah. I love that you are trying. And want you to keep trying and trying and trying. 



tjpf said:


> You are chest thumping with JF17 blk2 and FC-20 which are yet to arrive, don't you believe you can take down IAF!!!!!
> 
> Give us time guys whats the hurry!!!


 
Or I can twist it and say you are chest thumping on a weapon which is yet to become operational. Don't teach us buddy, we know what we are talking about.


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## danger007

Areesh said:


> Yeah yeah. I love that you are trying. And want you to keep trying and trying and trying.
> 
> 
> 
> Or I can twist it and say you are chest thumping on a weapon which is yet to become operational. Don't teach us buddy, we know what we are talking about.



yeah yeah i don't support those whom call JF-17 as junk fighter 17. your procurement is depending on some other concerns. If US senate agrees to give F-16 blk 52 you people make party, But we reject more advanced F-16 blk 60 with AESA and F/A -18 SH. later US offered F-35 waiting for our response, atleast you are not getting the difference between India and Pakistan.


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## tjpf

Or I can twist it and say you are chest thumping on a weapon which is yet to become operational. Don't teach us buddy, we know what we are talking about.[/QUOTE]

if only you could learn and understand

tell that to pakistani who chest thump about JF17 blk2, FC-20, Al khalid blk2!!!!!!!!!


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## Areesh

tjpf said:


> if only you could learn and understand


 
If it is an advice. It is mutual.


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## tjpf

Areesh said:


> If it is an advice. It is mutual.



we do that's why from a poor nation we have developed into a fast growing developing nation(of course many social problems are to be addressed- in time).
Our growth increases exponentially every year.

so not mutual.


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## Areesh

danger007 said:


> yeah yeah i don't support those whom call JF-17 as junk fighter 17.



Good if you don't.



> But we reject more advanced F-16 blk 60 with AESA and F/A -18 SH. and US offered F-35 waiting for our response, atleast you are not getting the difference between India and Pakistan.



Good for you.


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## DARKY

Luftwaffe said:


> *Here is question for you. Are you going to send AEW&C into Pakistan Airspace?*
> Have you heard "Planning for Airspace Control in the Combat Zone" Do you know what it is. I suggest you read this it will clear you mind and understand sending mkis is to take on become hero is not an easy task, over enemy airspace you are going to find it hard the best of the best would come out of such a situation its all about timing its all about how reactive and active the pilots are, the enemy will not just send diamond formation they will make sure they cut you off and take you deep into their airspace to engage which is no point of return it is either you runaway or fight to death.
> http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/jp-doctrine/jp3_52%2895%29.pdf



Do we need to send our AWACS in Pakistani air space ??
With phalcons flying in Amritsar we can can still keep complete survialnce of Pakistani airspace over Lahore, Multan, Sargodha, Islamabad all the way to Peshawar and Afghan border... the only place to hide is left in balochistan near Iran boder... unfortunately even Iran has been offering basing facilities in their territories along with Afghanistan and Tajikistan... If needed those left over areas would also be covered by an AWACS in Arabian sea or Afghanistan well flanked by Mig 29s or Su 30s.


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## Areesh

tjpf said:


> we do that's why from a poor nation we have developed into a fast growing developing nation(of course many social problems are to be addressed- in time).
> Our growth increases exponentially every year.
> 
> so not mutual.


 
From MRCA to economy and what not. Blah Blah blah. Sorry not interested.


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## GURU DUTT

why isnt any body answering my questions


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## cloneman

I don't think the PAF needs to worry about the euipments issue during the war with India.The whole China will be Pakistan's arsenal and all the production line will produce the equpments for the PAF.The only thing a PAF pilot needs to worry is to keep him safe and be back to his camp when he was down,a brand new fighter from China will wait there.Also PLA will not just sit on Tibet,definatelly they will do something.In a word,it's meaningless to compare how many fighters you have since China will be there in case of war.Remember China won't risk to loose her ally PAKISTAN.

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## Mughal-Prince

I dont understand what mods are doing  ... its a PAF's possible answer to MRCA thread ... its littered by trolls and its counter trolls ... I want to read some quality post not these childish nonsense ... I wish some one clean this mess and members show some dignity ...


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## tjpf

Areesh said:


> From MRCA to *economy* and what not. Blah Blah blah. *Sorry not interested*.



obviously otherwise pakistan would be developing now instead of...........

on topic PAF will not have *enough* to counter MRCA


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## tjpf

cloneman said:


> I don't think the PAF needs to worry about the euipments issue during the war with India.The whole China will be Pakistan's arsenal and all the production line will produce the equpments for the PAF.The only thing a PAF pilot needs to worry is to keep him safe and be back to his camp when he was down,a brand new fighter from China will wait there.*Also PLA will not just sit on Tibet,definatelly they will do something*.In a word,it's meaningless to compare how many fighters you have since China will be there in case of war.Remember China won't risk to loose her ally PAKISTAN.



all these wars you didn't help them why would you now


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## cloneman

danger007 said:


> are you Chinese diffence minister???????????


Nope,but Chinese police makers and most the ordinary Chinese think the same like me.


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## Areesh

tjpf said:


> obviously otherwise pakistan would be developing now instead of...........



Or by showing no interested in such Blah blah this forum could have been a better place for reasonable discussion.


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## cloneman

tjpf said:


> all these wars you didn't help them why would you now


Not correct,in 1965 China sent J-6 and T-59 tanks to Pakistan,and China also affords diplomatic help to Pakistan.Some of the J-6 were directlly from the PLAAF since there was no time to produce enough in short time.Also the PLA army on the Tibet was assembled in 1965.

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## cloneman

[/COLOR]

but nothing positive came from that.
You should know the outcome of all wars between us.[/QUOTE]
You will never know what will come from a war,the only thing we can do it's to ensure our ally has enough equipments,the rest let god decide.


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## cloneman

DARKY said:


> Then that's pathetic for China.


Maybe the other way around,it will be pathetic to piss off China and her ally and we will make our common enemy's life pathetic.

---------- Post added at 07:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------




DARKY said:


> Such a Pity... even with China and US supporting Pakistan with their resources, weaponry and Military they couldn't win a single war and lost half of itself in the process... such a shame for all three.


Come on.Pakistan needs some time to learn,and let's see what will happen in the next.


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## Cool_Soldier

The real fact is that When two equal and strong forces collide with each other, both do not defeat but destroy each other.Giving you real example of WW-2, British and German were world's top powers.Both had long war for 6 years.At the end German lost and British won but at what cost? Yes at the cost of ruined all the country and and lost their empire over the world.Right after that war, Both Leading powers were replaced by USA and USSR.

So If India and Pakistan go through war, Result would be the same, and both will loose their current power status in region and dignity and will be replaced by some one else in any way.

So, my dear Indian fellow, do not see PAF at lower level that would be big mistake.We do not consider any enemy inferior and always take serious note.

I hope it helps to understand the cost of win.

Regards


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## Areesh

DARKY said:


> 4 wars already... failing all 4 times...



Considering your posts on this forum I am not surprised by such type of claims by you. Well done.


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## danger007

Areesh said:


> Considering your posts on this forum I am not surprised by such type of claims by you. Well done.



feeling same here. anyway come back to topic.


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## cloneman

DARKY said:


> We are already doing that by capturing southern Tibet and allowing Tibetan freedom movement with the support of Dalai Lama from there and Dharamshala in HP.... we also hoist our flags there, besides doing the same in western Tibet...i.e. Laddakh.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 4 wars already... failing all 4 times...


I don't think we have a problem that you host Dalai Lama since our goverment didn't complain too much.Also a politician without power is useless,acturally we're happy that you feed him.Regarding the Pak-Indi conflict,as I said before,give Pakistan more time and let's see what will happen.If Pakistan and China together can break India into pieces,then one sucess war is more than enough.

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## Urbanized Greyhound

Cool_Soldier said:


> The real fact is that When two equal and strong forces collide with each other, both do not defeat but destroy each other.Giving you real example of WW-2, British and German were world's top powers.Both had long war for 6 years.At the end German lost and British won but at what cost? Yes at the cost of ruined all the country and and lost their empire over the world.Right after that war, Both Leading powers were replaced by USA and USSR.
> 
> So If India and Pakistan go through war, Result would be the same, and both will loose their current power status in region and dignity and will be replaced by some one else in any way.
> 
> So, my dear Indian fellow, do not see PAF at lower level that would be big mistake.We do not consider any enemy inferior and always take serious note.
> 
> I hope it helps to understand the cost of win.
> 
> Regards



Very well said  ..If only some of your fellow posters displayed the same rationality when Indian forces and Chinese Forces are compared , the forum would be such a peaceful place


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## cloneman

tjpf said:


> should i remind you of the other indo-sino encounters!!!!!!
> 
> *Well at least we don't copy*


When your high rank officers ask your scientists to beg,borrow and *steal*?


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## danger007

cloneman said:


> I don't think we have a problem that you host Dalai Lama since our goverment didn't complain too much.Also a politician without power is useless,acturally we're happy that you feed him.Regarding the Pak-Indi conflict,as I said before,give Pakistan more time and let's see what will happen.If Pakistan and China together can break India into pieces,then one sucess war is more than enough.



US will surely step in. If you want to turn world war then go ahead. your economic progress will send back. surely pakistan also will go to stone age. hey stop non-sense. ne ayya samputha nakodaka.


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## cloneman

danger007 said:


> US will surely step in. If you want to turn world war then go ahead. your economic progress will send back. surely pakistan also will go to stone age. hey stop non-sense. ne ayya samputha nakodaka.


I don't know if it will be a world war since from 1962 to 1971,all the wars between the three were controlable.Mostlikely the future conflict between Pak China Vs. India will still be limited to a regional war.Plus you overestimated the yanks,they acturally don't care Indians too much,and mostlikely they will still assist Pak military hardware in a long time like what they are doing now.


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## cloneman

danger007 said:


> all of your posts. you are making offensive post. if you wanna discuss about MMRCA share your views else back off.


I don't think so.Comparing your fellow Indian's comments which directlly threat Pakistan,I just figure out that China won't stay away once Pak as an ally was invaded,it's a common sence in China for both the ordinary Chinese and high rank officers that we will come to help once Pak is in trouble.My point is always clear and not specifically to offend any Indians here.


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## AmberDutt

cloneman said:


> I don't think so.Comparing your fellow Indian's comments which directlly threat Pakistan,I just figure out that China won't stay away once Pak as an ally was invaded,it's a common sence in China for both the ordinary Chinese and high rank officers that we will come to help once Pak is in trouble.My point is always clear and not specifically to offend any Indians here.



What happened in 1965 or 1971 or Kargil.. Didnt see any high ranking Chinese officers or ordinary chinese coming for Pakistan's help Mr False flagger


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## cloneman

AmberDutt said:


> What happened in 1965 or 1971 or Kargil.. Didnt see any high ranking Chinese officers or ordinary chinese coming for Pakistan's help Mr False flagger


What about the J-6 and type 59 tanks the Pakistani military operated?They were not from India,right? Lol.


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## Emmie

I cant understand kind of discussion going on here..

PAF answer to MMRCA would be JFT blk-II and FC 20(J 10B)... Fine if you agree, great if you don't.

Peace..

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## Urbanized Greyhound

cloneman said:


> What about the J-6 and type 59 tanks the Pakistani military operated?They were not from India,right? Lol.



Yes so China has been a source of military hardware to Pakistan for decades , nothing new about it . But your point was China militarily intervening in a Indo-Pak conflict and that has historically never happened .


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## cloneman

Urbanized Greyhound said:


> Yes so China has been a source of military hardware to Pakistan for decades , nothing new about it . But your point was China militarily intervening in a Indo-Pak conflict and that has historically never happened .


See post 1413.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------




AmberDutt said:


> I didnt know that officers of Chinese Army are machines and not humans.. Looks like that way we had Russian officers and common men fighting for us then and will also have American officers and men fighting now.. (since we operate both Russian and American weaponary at this time)


Lol,I didn't see any Russiana or yanks here.Good luck to find anyone.


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## PakShaheen79

As far as EF is concerned, that would not be a major problem for PAF to devise strategy against using FC-20 and JF-17s in mutual exercises. Saudis are going to have number of them and that too the latest trench (Trench 3). Rafale on the other hand is a very new system as India is the only second customer after France itself. I think what Indian did to play a diplomatic game here as well by splitting the order as Indian knew that the platform from the US and Russia would always remain out of reach for PAF due to political reasons. Next, they ordered both top of the line European fighters to stop any potential future PAF procurement to counter any one of them. Certainly, PAF would not be interested in EF-2000 or Rafale once IAF acquire them both.

This, for PAF's own good, leave China as the only choice. JF-17 block-1 is just a baby step and this is going to be the Mig-21 of 21st century as many European and American analysts have pointed out rightly. Certainly, this plane would not remain limited to its current capabilities. Block-II is already in progress. WS-13 is being tested. And most importantly, next generation A2A weapons are well in advanced stages (PL-21, PL-10 etc.)

FC-20 (J-10A; Operational and Flying in PLAAF) was ordered in lower numbers due to obvious reasons. PAF wanted to give time to CAC to improve the J-10A and just look at the advancements being made in J-10B. Surely, PAF would counter any capability IAF would have. The pace of development and modernization of PAF during the previous 3-5 years have stunned the Indian planners. Projects like Ra'ad ALCM took them with complete surprise. Next, I am unable to comprehend that how a plane becomes better than other despite being belonged to the same generation? Once get to full operational clearance, there would be not much difference of capabilities of Rafale/EF-2000 and J-10B. 

I personally don't see any reason to be panicked by MMRCA procurement.

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## Paan Singh

PakShaheen79 said:


> As far as EF is concerned, that would not be a major problem for PAF to devise strategy against using FC-20 and JF-17s in mutual exercises. Saudis are going to have number of them and that too the latest trench (Trench 3). Rafale on the other hand is a very new system as India is the only second customer after France itself. I think what Indian did to play a diplomatic game here as well by splitting the order as Indian knew that the platform from the US and Russia would always remain out of reach for PAF due to political reasons. Next, they ordered both top of the line European fighters to stop any potential future PAF procurement to counter any one of them. Certainly, PAF would not be interested in EF-2000 or Rafale once IAF acquire them both.
> 
> This, for PAF's own good, leave China as the only choice. JF-17 block-1 is just a baby step and this is going to be the Mig-21 of 21st century as many European and American analysts have pointed out rightly. Certainly, this plane would not remain limited to its current capabilities. Block-II is already in progress. WS-13 is being tested. And most importantly, next generation A2A weapons are well in advanced stages (PL-21, PL-10 etc.)
> 
> FC-20 (J-10A; Operational and Flying in PLAAF) was ordered in lower numbers due to obvious reasons. PAF wanted to give time to CAC to improve the J-10A and just look at the advancements being made in J-10B. Surely, PAF would counter any capability IAF would have. The pace of development and modernization of PAF during the previous 3-5 years have stunned the Indian planners. Projects like Ra'ad ALCM took them with complete surprise. Next, I am unable to comprehend that how a plane becomes better than other despite being belonged to the same generation? Once get to full operational clearance, there would be not much difference of capabilities of Rafale/EF-2000 and J-10B.
> 
> I personally don't see any reason to be panicked by MMRCA procurement.



no sir ji...we are not stunned by pakistani preparations.We used to be but decade ago.
now major concern is china..indian media now talk very less on pk..more likely on china now.
so you are wrong.

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## PakShaheen79

Prism said:


> no sir ji...we are not stunned by pakistani preparations.We used to be but decade ago.
> now major concern is china..indian media now talk very less on pk..more likely on china now.
> so you are wrong.



Oh, then whose media is this...?

"Indian Air Force" Losing Edge Over Pakistan Air Force - (by Indian media) - YouTube


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## Paan Singh

PakShaheen79 said:


> Oh, then whose media is this...?
> 
> "Indian Air Force" Losing Edge Over Pakistan Air Force - (by Indian media) - YouTube



i told you very less....and our media is BS.I hate these channels.


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## Emmie

Prism said:


> no sir ji...we are not stunned by pakistani preparations.We used to be but decade ago.
> now major concern is china..indian media now talk very less on pk..more likely on china now.
> so you are wrong.



Tell me onething - Which jet of PLAAF you think is severe? Every Indian damn J-10, FC-1, J-11 and when it comes to Su-30MKK you guys neutralize its by the presence of IAF Su-30MKI.

I cant understand what makes you guys stunned by China when you have everything within your pocket!

Lets be bit constructive...

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## Paan Singh

Emmie said:


> Tell me onething - Which jet of PLAAF you think is severe? Every Indian damn J-10, FC-1, J-11 and when it comes to Su-30MKK you guys neutralize its by the presence of IAF Su-30MKI.
> 
> I cant understand what makes you guys stunned by China when you have everything within your pocket!



yaar...frankly speaking..this is just brain washing of the public by stupid media.
they spread rumours which brainwash locals.

but we have difference in numbers wrt china in military.
our navy is strong but army is not getting what it needs.


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## Emmie

Prism said:


> yaar...frankly speaking..this is just brain washing of the public by *stupid media*.
> they spread rumours which brainwash locals.
> 
> *but we have difference in numbers wrt china in military*.
> our navy is strong but army is not getting what it needs.



No doubt about it your media behaves like a moron...

I am afraid that gap may not be bridged as there's no limit for China but there's a limit for India.

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## Satybharat

PakShaheen79 said:


> And a minute ago you were saying something else



Next month India is buy 189 European fighter plan and other equipment worth $20 billion. Complete modernization of the Indian force. Soon similar amount will be spent on Army and Navy....good purchasing power huh!


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## S.U.R.B.

96 pages ..........figuring out just another "VS" option for Pakistan.A platform Vs platform ......Isn't it a waste of time,till now we even don't know what's IAF getting in the bag.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Blessing in disguise i would say, PAF was fortunate to check out both the EF and Rafael...in fact gave the EF a good run for whatever it's worth, we also have the Saudi connection. Rafael, albeit looks the works but Being a launch customer for a new system must be difficult, even the Grippen would have been unknown territory to the PAF.



The PAF did have the hots for both the eurocanards, as many of those who were with the "unofficial" evaluation(without the pomp and show) found both birds fun.. surprisingly.. the EF as the PAF evaluated it some years ago was found cheaper to procure than the rafale..apparently the french were trying their usual fleecing techniques.
But the simple headache of American equipment put off the EF(along with the Indian lobby with a partner nation..even though it was not able to stop evaluation or intent for purchase..they tried very very hard), the PAF did not want two aircraft prone to sanctions... apparently that perseverance has paid off in both the JF and FC-20..
With the Ef though, there will be the threat of both sides having the Aim-120.. with the rafale.. the Mica will the primary weapon and the PAF has an idea of its capabilities(via the RFI for the now cancelled JF-17 package).

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## Secur

Last time i checked , it was only 126 fighters unless my information is faulty , try to explain when the order was increased ?


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## SQ8

If you have anything other than the MMRCA to be discussed. I close this thread off.


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## danger007

may be in 2022 we will have 100+ MMRCA, 272 Su-30mki( upgraded or super standard), 68 Mig-29 UPG,51 Mirage2k5 mk2, atleast 120 Tejas, PAK-FA/FGFA-50 and PAF will be 150-200 JFT(mk1,mk2), 63 F-16 BLK15/52, J-10B initially 36 ordered, possibly 100 J-10B. Don't know about J-20.

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## golmaal

We really don't know why our Pakistani beloved friends are talking about possible answer to MMRCA purchase...
cool guys dont panic we are not stationing these fighter on our western border... this is for our one of the biggest trading partner!!

we don't need any new fighters to counter western border threats....


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## acetophenol

golmaal said:


> We really don't know why our Pakistani beloved friends are talking about possible answer to MMRCA purchase...
> cool guys dont panic we are not stationing these fighter on our western border... this is for our one of the biggest trading partner!!
> 
> we don't need any new fighters to counter western border threats....



*welcome to the forum*


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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> Objective failed=War lost (for the whole world)
> 
> However considering your flag... I am not surprised.....


 

Indicator of maturity.. the need to have the last word.


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## Secur

tjpf said:


> tell that to pakistani who chest thump about JF17 blk2, FC-20, Al khalid blk2!!!!!!!!!


 Why dont i tell this to the Indians who are bragging about a deal that is yet to materialize ? The deal hasn't been signed yet unlike the FC 20 ... Even if they open the bids in 6 weeks , it will take atleast 1.5 year before the first plane of the MRCA arrives ... At the same time , Pakistan will be having J10's and around 60 JF 17 ... So talking about the future is justified ... since there's no EF or Rafale in India at the moment your argument about chest thumping on future purchases is baseless and absurd because even you guys are doing the same at the moment ... Keep in mind when we are discussing the possible scenarios to counter MRCA ... Atleast try to understand what is being discussed before posting ...


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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Why dont i tell this to the Indians who are bragging about a deal that is yet to materialize ? The deal hasn't been signed yet unlike the FC 20 ... Even if they open the bids in 6 weeks , it will take atleast 1.5 year before the first plane of the MRCA arrives ... At the same time , Pakistan will be having 36 J10's and around 60 JF 17 ... So talking about the future is justified ... since there's no Ef or Rafale in India at the moment your argument about chest thumping on future purchases is baseless and absurd



We just need to sign the agreement to get the system unlike FC-20 which is still inside the bag. as per insider report courtesy S10-- you even not getting J10 B just a modified j10 A 

and this is preposterous argument that pakistan will operate 36 j10 and 60 jf-17 in next one and half year

Aren't you the one saying that china has supply issues with engines ? are you assuming that china will dliever FC-10 first to pakistan than to china


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> We just need to sign the agreement to get the system unlike FC-20 which is still inside the bag. as per insider report courtesy S10-- you even not getting J10 B just a modified j10 A
> 
> and this is preposterous argument that pakistan will operate 36 j10 and 60 jf-17 in next one and half year
> 
> Aren't you the one saying that china has supply issues with engines ? are you assuming that china will dliever FC-10 first to pakistan than to china


 Weren't i the one telling you that China is purchasing engines for its J 10 , J 11 and JFT fleet ?  or just twist things as you see fit ? Yeah , try signing that agreement first ... The MRCA been going on for the last 5 years ... and who said FC 20 is not out of the bag ? Didn't i tell you too that JFT 06 Prototype is being tested with second batch avionics in China ? and yeah Pakistan will be the first to get FC 20 since its the export version of J10 for Pakistan btw they already have around 190 J10's  Try and research a little ...


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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Weren't i the one telling you that China is purchasing engines for its J 10 , J 11 and JFT fleet ?  or just twist things as you see fit ? Yeah , try signing that agreement first ... The MRCA been going on for the last 5 years ... and who said FC 20 is not out of the bag ? Didn't i tell you too that JFT 06 Prototype is being tested with second batch avionics in China ?



Good dodging by you on critical aspects -- let the PLAAF gets her first J10 B


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## Secur

majesticpankaj said:


> Good dodging by you on critical aspects -- let the PLAAF gets her first J10 B



Check this post by you ...



majesticpankaj said:


> We just need to sign the agreement to get the system unlike FC-20 which is still inside the bag. as per insider report courtesy S10-- you even not getting J10 B just a modified j10 A


 Yes we aren't getting J10 B so then whats the problem ? Why would it affect us that when PLAAF gets her first J10 B ? They already have around 190 J10 A's so how exactly producing 36 more will be problem ? 

I will wait until first EF or Rafale arrives in India and I can bet that FC20's will make their way into Pakistan way before the first EF or Rafale arrives ... You have no idea of the Chinese speed of production ... Try looking at our previous deals ... They were all completed in record time and Our Defense purchases are usually not boasted about so a complete silence in expected ...


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## PakShaheen79

majesticpankaj said:


> We just need to sign the agreement to get the system unlike FC-20 which is still inside the bag. as per insider report courtesy S10-- you even not getting J10 B just a modified j10 A



Actually we know that we are not getting J-10B as FC-20. It is J-10A with modifications as per PAF requirements. Decision was made back in 2006, and at that time there was no J-10B. So it would be illogical to consider the FC-20s as J-10B.


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## notorious_eagle

majesticpankaj said:


> Good dodging by you on critical aspects -- let the PLAAF gets her first J10 B



You need to understand one thing, its in the interest of the PLAAF to ensure that PAF remains armed with adequate levels of weapons because it takes pressure of them. They are not arming us heavily because they love us so much, they are only doing it to protect their flank against India. A well armed PAF relieves pressure of the PLAAF as it allows them to focus on the real threat for them which stems from Japan, US and Taiwan. They cant possibly be bothered to worry about the front against India, thus they provide Pakistan with top of the line weapons so India remains occupied with Pakistan. 

Whether you like it or not, PAF will be getting the J10B's around the 2014-2015 time frame. You might see some initial J10A's being acquired a bit earlier, but that is only to keep force levels at adequate numbers and get our pilots familiarized with the platform. People who are much more knowledgable than you and have much deeper contacts in the Defence Ministry have already stated that the cabinet has approved the purchase for these aircrafts. If you really are interested, i will reveal this information to you that you will never find online and was told to me by a person who was part of the defence delegation that went to China. It is China that is much more forthcoming and enthusiastic in providing Pakistan with its top tier weapons, whatever Pakistan requested, China was more than willing to provide it and added a lot more goodies as a good will gesture to top the deal up with a cherry. 

As you keep increasing your force levels near the border with China, it makes China more nervous and she counters it by providing Pakistan with more weapons at unbelievable prices. So in the end, we all have to thank India for making China nervous which leads to China providing Pakistan with her top tier weapons .

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## PakShaheen79

notorious_eagle:

Sir, what i can see that there is a defecto pattern of regional security is emerging in the region where Pakistan and China will be on oneside with possibly Iran and Russians joining in. India on the other hand would be with US. In Indian Ocean it is more visible and so is in South China Sea where Indian Navy is trying to venture against PLAN. Now all Chinese oil supplies and string of perl strategy depend on role and strength of PN and PAF. Indians also aware of this security scenario and that is the only reason why they are so eagerly preparing for a war against their largest trading partner.

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## MilSpec

notorious_eagle said:


> You need to understand one thing, its in the interest of the PLAAF to ensure that PAF remains armed with adequate levels of weapons because it takes pressure of them. They are not arming us heavily because they love us so much, they are only doing it to protect their flank against India. A well armed PAF relieves pressure of the PLAAF as it allows them to focus on the real threat for them which stems from Japan, US and Taiwan. They cant possibly be bothered to worry about the front against India, thus they provide Pakistan with top of the line weapons so India remains occupied with Pakistan.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, PAF will be getting the J10B's around the 2014-2015 time frame. You might see some initial J10A's being acquired a bit earlier, but that is only to keep force levels at adequate numbers and get our pilots familiarized with the platform. People who are much more knowledgable than you and have much deeper contacts in the Defence Ministry have already stated that the cabinet has approved the purchase for these aircrafts. If you really are interested, i will reveal this information to you that you will never find online and was told to me by a person who was part of the defence delegation that went to China. It is China that is much more forthcoming and enthusiastic in providing Pakistan with its top tier weapons, whatever Pakistan requested, China was more than willing to provide it and added a lot more goodies as a good will gesture to top the deal up with a cherry.
> 
> As you keep increasing your force levels near the border with China, it makes China more nervous and she counters it by providing Pakistan with more weapons at unbelievable prices. So in the end, we all have to thank India for making China nervous which leads to China providing Pakistan with her top tier weapons .




I completely agree with this post... I wish Indian government would wake up to this call and pay-back pakistan by propping up afghan military in the same way. Hope that happens in my lifetime. Wonder how pakistanis will feel to live surrounded with two hostile neighbors like India?


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## PakShaheen79

> *MMRCA deal: Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircrafts*
> TNN Nov 5, 2011, 03.40AM IST
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: Now, battle-lines for the Europe versus France contest, after elimination of US and Russia in earlier rounds, have been clearly drawn. India on Friday opened the financial bids of the two fighters left in the fray for the world's biggest combat aircraft deal, but promptly declared it would take at least two-three weeks to declare the eventual winner since tons of data had to be computed.
> 
> For all its promises of "full transparency" in the medium multi-role combat aircraft ( MMRCA) contract to acquire 126 fighters, likely to be the single biggest defence deal in the run-up to the 2014 polls with its overall value set to exceed $20 billion, the defence ministry refused to say anything concrete.
> 
> Sources, however, said the "unit flyaway cost" or "direct acquisition cost" of each Eurofighter Typhoon was "higher" than the French Rafale fighter, both of which fall in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots.
> 
> But the unit flyaway cost will not be the only factor to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). The MoD will also take into account "life-cycle costs" or the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying.
> 
> Besides, there are costs of the transfer of technology (ToT) since the first 18 jets will be bought from abroad in a flyaway condition, while the rest 108 will be manufactured in India, under licence, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
> 
> "The bids were opened today in front of the Indian contract negotiating committee, comprising MoD, IAF, finance, production and quality assurance officials, as well as representatives from French Dassault and EADS (backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy). It will take a few weeks to examine and evaluate their commercial proposals to arrive at a verifiable cost model to determine the L-1," said an official.
> 
> IAF wants the actual contract to be inked by January-February to ensure the delivery of first 18 jets begins by early-2015 to stem its fast-eroding combat edge, with HAL beginning the manufacturing of the rest 108 from early-2017 onwards. "The first jet built by HAL should roll out in early-2017," said an official.
> 
> India is also likely to go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126, if the timelines for the under-development Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) projects are not met.



http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-11-05/india/30363528_1_french-dassault-combat-aircraft-eurofighter-typhoon

According to this latest story from Indian media;

1. Either Rafale OR the Typhoon will be the winner. No decision taken as yet.

2. Made in India deliveries would only start from 2017

3. Additional order of 63 is dependent on development of FGFA and LCA hence they are not included in this order.

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## PWFI

sandy_3126 said:


> I completely agree with this post... *I wish Indian government would wake up to this call and pay-back pakistan by propping up afghan military in the same way*. Hope that happens in my lifetime. Wonder how pakistanis will feel to live surrounded with two hostile neighbors like India?



The question is how? yes you can do for 1-2 more years then TALIBANS are coming back so change your strategy


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## Luftwaffe

GURU DUTT said:


> Pardon my ignorence sir but i think a very senior pakistani member once on this forum explaind that owr awacs are far more superior as they are command & control (they can transmit data directly to fighter planes which saves time)also & yours have do give data to ground control first & then itsguven to the fighter planes & stuff and if owr AWACS say is flying well within(50km)owr border it can still cover all pakistani airspace ,ps forgive me if im wrong and kindly describe the facts according to you Thanks Again .



I would again suggest you & your friends read it, explains in detail all the planning all engagement zones and potential areas. Every Air Force looks into and practice it. You must have also heard about AWACS Killer. AWACS will not go undetected. 
http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/jp-doctrine/jp3_52%2895%29.pdf

tjpf, use forum language thankyou, your answer is the link I provided.


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## Dr. Strangelove

danger007 said:


> may be in 2022 we will have 100+ MMRCA, 272 Su-30mki( upgraded or super standard), 68 Mig-29 UPG,51 Mirage2k5 mk2, atleast 120 Tejas, PAK-FA/FGFA-50 and PAF will be 150-200 JFT(mk1,mk2), 63 F-16 BLK15/52, J-10B initially 36 ordered, possibly 100 J-10B. Don't know about J-20.


in 2020 
the delivery of all 250 jf 17s will end in 2017\2018
in 2020 we will have 150 fc20s
and 63 f 16s may be j20 
these planes are inoff for our af to defend us and india will not use its all airforce against us


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## danger007

wasm95 said:


> in 2020
> the delivery of all 250 jf 17s will end in 2017\2018
> in 2020 we will have 150 fc20s
> and 63 f 16s may be j20
> these planes are inoff for our af to defend us and india will not use its all airforce against us


 i put some what real numbers. Initial order of j-10B is 36. It may be raised upto 100. I dnt think so you are going to induct more jf-17 becuase of J-10B .


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## abdulbarijan

danger007 said:


> i put some what real numbers. Initial order of j-10B is 36. It may be raised upto 100. I dnt think so you are going to induct more jf-17 becuase of J-10B .


Happy eid ya'll
and just because you think we wont add more JF-17's doesn't mean we wont,PAF has to replace all its fleet of F-7's and Mirage from JFT and FC-20
that means near 180 F-7's and near 150 Mirages (taken from wiki since i didn't know where to go LOL!!)
thats 330 fighters
so the initial reports were near 200-250 JFT's
that leaves room for 80-100 FC-20's

250JFT's
100 FC-20's
80 F-16 block 50/52
with good ground support,AWACS and SAMS support is one hell of a defensive airforce


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## Emmie

danger007 said:


> i put some what real numbers. Initial order of j-10B is 36. It may be* raised upto 100*.I dnt think so you are going to induct more jf-17 becuase of J-10B .



Correction, total numbers of FC-20 may be raised up to 150. PAF will induct more JFTs in order to replace old birds, JFT blk-II I mean.

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## rockstarIN

PakShaheen79 said:


> notorious_eagle:
> 
> Sir, what i can see that there is a defecto pattern of regional security is emerging in the region where Pakistan and China will be on oneside with possibly Iran and Russians joining in. India on the other hand would be with US. In Indian Ocean it is more visible and so is in South China Sea where Indian Navy is trying to venture against PLAN. Now all Chinese oil supplies and string of perl strategy depend on role and strength of PN and PAF. Indians also aware of this security scenario and that is the only reason why they are so eagerly preparing for a war against their largest trading partner.



PakShaheen,

There will be no regional alliances in Asia where Russia joining China/Pakistan.And it is not right thinking India joining with US against China, it is we who atke adventage of the situation and earn maximum advantage of the situation from US as well as China and USA started learning this. There is always business nothing else

And adding more arms does not mean than it is for war against China.


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## PakShaheen79

rockstar said:


> PakShaheen,
> 
> There will be no regional alliances in Asia where Russia joining China/Pakistan.And it is not right thinking India joining with US against China, it is we who atke adventage of the situation and earn maximum advantage of the situation from US as well as China and USA started learning this. There is always business nothing else
> 
> And adding more arms does not mean than it is for war against China.




Well, I didn't say anything definite regarding the Russian involvement in the this collective security alliance. All i said that is a POSSIBILITY.problem with geopolitics is that it remains business till a certain limit and after that it is inter-dependence. Weren't the US firms not aware of Indian arms market in 1990's after the dismemberment of USSR? All this new honey moon began after 9/11. the US does need a long term strategic partner in the region. I know Indian policy also seek to become a major player but think about it, Why the US is helping you guys to become a global player? Particularly, when it can also hurt her own long term strategic interests in the region.You would be a naive to think that you are the one taking advantage in others' games. We learned this harsh reality in last 64 years. What India offers in return in strategic terms to the US? this is the core question. Certainly, a powerful and economically strong India would be a deterrence against China in the Indian Ocean and South East Asia. Just like Japan and Taiwan are playing their roles in the East of China.

Why, in your opinion, Russians have no concerns with China supplying J-10A to Pakistan with AL-31F engines? unlike initial RD-93 when Russians were so concerned of Chinese exporting planes with those engines to Pakistan few years back?

Many people said here that China would NOT help us in an event of war against India. I ask why not, when Chinese Sea Line of Communications can be threatened by Indian Navy in Indian Ocean? and a strong Pakistan Navy can prevent Indian Navy from doing that. This is a natural geographic bond between the two which force Pakistan and China to support each other on political issues for mutual interests. On the other hand, After 9/11, Indian ans US interests also converged leading to a geopolitical alliance which is far from business.

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## Zabaniyah

PakShaheen79 said:


> Well, I didn't say anything definite regarding the Russian involvement in the this collective security alliance. All i said that is a POSSIBILITY.problem with geopolitics is that it remains business till a certain limit and after that it is inter-dependence. Weren't the US firms not aware of Indian arms market in 1990's after the dismemberment of USSR? All this new honey moon began after 9/11. the US does need a long term strategic partner in the region. I know Indian policy also seek to become a major player but think about it, Why the US is helping you guys to become a global player? Particularly, when it can also hurt her own long term strategic interests in the region.You would be a naive to think that you are the one taking advantage in others' games. We learned this harsh reality in last 64 years. What India offers in return in strategic terms to the US? this is the core question. Certainly, a powerful and economically strong India would be a deterrence against China in the Indian Ocean and South East Asia. Just like Japan and Taiwan are playing their roles in the East of China.



It is also business for the US. You see, America's arms manufacturing industries are some of the only viable export oriented industries. And considering that majority of India's weapons are imported from abroad (70% of the overall inventory), it is an attractive market. The Americans even offered them to join the JSF program. 

India was a Cold-War foe for the US and Pakistan on the US side for reasons best known to themselves. Things have certainly changed after 9/11. A LOT. 

So of-course, there is politics there. And China, about whom they are scared $hit. 



PakShaheen79 said:


> Why, in your opinion, Russians have no concerns with China supplying J-10A to Pakistan with AL-31F engines? unlike initial RD-93 when Russians were so concerned of Chinese exporting planes with those engines to Pakistan few years back?



It's business as usual for the Russians. Even if a Indo-Sino war happens, they'll be more than happy to supply both of them. I think the Indians and the Russians agreed with one another that Pakistan won't be supplied with offensive weapons. Pakistan operates several Mi-17s, coupled with Russian-made engines on the JF-17s and very likely on the FC-20s. All of which aren't offensive. 



PakShaheen79 said:


> *Many people said here that China would NOT help us in an event of war against India.* I ask why not, when Chinese Sea Line of Communications can be threatened by Indian Navy in Indian Ocean? and a strong Pakistan Navy can prevent Indian Navy from doing that. This is a natural geographic bond between the two which force Pakistan and China to support each other on political issues for mutual interests. On the other hand, After 9/11, Indian ans US interests also converged leading to a geopolitical alliance which is far from business.



They are correct. Pakistan is China's Israel. China will only defend her own interests in our neighborhood. India is not taken too seriously by the Chinese. For them, the main concerns are the US, Taiwan, Japan and perhaps Vietnam.


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## majesticpankaj

Secur said:


> Check this post by you ...
> 
> Yes we aren't getting J10 B so then whats the problem ? Why would it affect us that when PLAAF gets her first J10 B ? They already have around 190 J10 A's so how exactly producing 36 more will be problem ?
> 
> I will wait until first EF or Rafale arrives in India and I can bet that FC20's will make their way into Pakistan way before the first EF or Rafale arrives ... You have no idea of the Chinese speed of production ... Try looking at our previous deals ... They were all completed in record time and Our Defense purchases are usually not boasted about so a complete silence in expected ...



Buddy ... you have showed concerns regarding the production of chinese engines for their jets because of supply chain issues and now you are claiming that delivering 36 FC-20 won't be a problem for chinese ? 

If I am not wrong it is been almost *3 years* Jf-17 production has been started-- how many you have currently ??


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## danger007

majesticpankaj said:


> Buddy ... you have showed concerns regarding the production of chinese engines for their jets because of supply chain issues and now you are claiming that delivering 36 FC-20 won't be a problem for chinese ?
> 
> If I am not wrong it is been almost *3 years* Jf-17 production has been started-- how many you have currently ??



upto may 2011 its 30.


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## majesticpankaj

notorious_eagle said:


> You need to understand one thing, its in the interest of the PLAAF to ensure that PAF remains armed with adequate levels of weapons because it takes pressure of them. They are not arming us heavily because they love us so much, they are only doing it to protect their flank against India. A well armed PAF relieves pressure of the PLAAF as it allows them to focus on the real threat for them which stems from Japan, US and Taiwan. They cant possibly be bothered to worry about the front against India, thus they provide Pakistan with top of the line weapons so India remains occupied with Pakistan.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, PAF will be getting the J10B's around the 2014-2015 time frame. You might see some initial J10A's being acquired a bit earlier, but that is only to keep force levels at adequate numbers and get our pilots familiarized with the platform. People who are much more knowledgable than you and have much deeper contacts in the Defence Ministry have already stated that the cabinet has approved the purchase for these aircrafts. If you really are interested, i will reveal this information to you that you will never find online and was told to me by a person who was part of the defence delegation that went to China. It is China that is much more forthcoming and enthusiastic in providing Pakistan with its top tier weapons, whatever Pakistan requested, China was more than willing to provide it and added a lot more goodies as a good will gesture to top the deal up with a cherry.
> 
> As you keep increasing your force levels near the border with China, it makes China more nervous and she counters it by providing Pakistan with more weapons at unbelievable prices. So in the end, we all have to thank India for making China nervous which leads to China providing Pakistan with her top tier weapons .



What I am getting from your post is that China is using pakistan as pawn. Look -- if India can make china nervous so does pakistan can make india nervous. With big pocket and huge defence budget we can have whatever we want. the spending ratio is 10: 1 in India's favors. see- we issue tenders to get the best weapon systems unlike pakistan who has to rely on china.

*If u have heard the recent interviews of Indian forces : they are saying we are more into making CAPABILITY BASED forces rather than enemy centric forces-- doesn't it imply that whatever system we will induct can deter both china and Pakistan ??

Huge implications for PAF because of enormous resources we have.

* I never said that PAF is not getting FC-20 but I have just questioned the time frame.

---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------




PakShaheen79 said:


> MMRCA deal: Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircrafts - Times Of India
> 
> According to this latest story from Indian media;
> 
> 1. Either Rafale OR the Typhoon will be the winner. No decision taken as yet.
> 
> 2. Made in India deliveries would only start from 2017
> 
> 3. Additional order of 63 is dependent on development of FGFA and LCA hence they are not included in this order.



There is a article posted by Sancho in MCRA thread recently go through it and enlighten yourself .. thanks


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## PakShaheen79

majesticpankaj said:


> There is a article posted by Sancho in MCRA thread recently go through it and enlighten yourself .. thanks



If you want to entertain only a selected piece in media, I am also eligible for the same  Why to look for the old stuff, when we have latest one with us.
_*
Update: Decision Time for MMRCA*_

November 4, 2011 11:34

The long process of the selection of the future 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) for the Indian Air Force is reaching a crucial milestone today, with the opening of the two offers, submitted by the European consortium EADS offering the Eurofighter Typhoon and French company Dassault offering the Rafale. The request for proposal (RFP) for the acquisition worth over US$10.4 billion was originally issued in 2007.

If you are awaiting a clear cut who is the lowest bidder today, you will be disappointed. Opening the financial bids in the presence of the two vendors was only a formal act, with both companies realizing the unit price offered by the competitor. MoD is expected to enter a final price negotiation with both bidders to select the preferred supplier. The decision will count other factors such as the life-cycle cost and transfer of technology will also have to be factored inBased on the full offers, the Indian Ministry of Defense will evaluate the two bids, calculating who the lowest bidder (L1) is based on many parameters laid down in the RFP. After the decision is made, mandatory contract will be awarded to the lowest bidder. Another issue is the offset obligations each bidder will assume.

How much the preferred vendor will have to &#8216;reinvest&#8217; (or buy back from India) is unclear. While the initial cost was US$10.4 billion, according to recent estimates, the current cost could be double that &#8211; around $20 billion, reflecting current currency exchange and realistic cost estimate of the two finalists, considered to be the most costly options among the original contenders the Financial Times. Since the Indian government has increased the offset obligations on this specific mega-deal from 30% to 50%, the winners&#8217; offset obligations alone could mount to the entire cost of the original program.

Aircraft flyaway cost are expected to reflect the price charged for the 18 planes to be built by the supplier, and remaining 108 planes to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in India. The final amount should also reflect the induction process, in-country logistics and support sustaining the fighters through their operational life span.

The &#8220;unit flyaway cost&#8221; or &#8220;direct acquisition cost&#8221; of each fighter falls in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots, the Times of India reported, claiming unnamed officials mentioned the Eurofighter price was &#8220;higher&#8221; than the French fighter&#8230;

Decision Time for MMRCA | Defense Update

Well unfortunately this article too draws the same conclusion regarding the status of MRCA as i posted earlier based on the post of Times of India.


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## majesticpankaj

@Pakshaheen-- that article was posted yesterday... read this

108 MMRCAS will roll out from Bangalore; cool HAL waits for the big winner 

Bangalore: Plane-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chose not to jump into the MMRCA madness, even as aviation pundits world over are tracking every bit of news on the opening of a bumper commercial bid. While the Ministry of Defence officials scanned macro price points along with Typhoon (Eurofighter) and Rafale (Dassault) representatives in Delhi, senior officials of HAL remained cool as a cucumber. They probably knew, who ever bags the $10.4 b order, they will be the biggest winner.
Out of the 126 combat MMRCA fighters, HAL will manufacture 108 aircraft (make category) at the Aircraft Division in Bangalore, while the first 18 (buy category) will come in a fly-away condition from the hangars of the winner. First we will make few planes from a semi-knocked-down kit, then from completely knocked-down kit and finally from absolute raw material phase. Once, we are clear with the rules of the game, we will start parallel activities, HAL sources said.
When asked how significant will be the MMRCA project to HAL, the official said: It will be a huge learning curve for us as we lay our hands on the next-level of fighter jet. It will also give us some learning points for our Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project. We will be able to extrapolate the MMRCA knowledge to FGFA. Definitely it is an exciting prospect to get involved with Western aircraft technology.
Currently HALs Hawk production line is abuzz with activities and they are hoping to complete the delivery of the remaining 15 aircraft (out of a total 42 made under licence) by the end of 2011-2012. This line will be busy for couple of years more as we have an additional order of 57 aircraft. So, MMRCA will be a separate production line, with likely additional manpower, sources said. HALs Engine Division in Bangalore will also play a key role in the MMRCA project.
While it is very sketchy to predict when the Indian Air Force will get the first HAL-built MMRCA, the company is seeing this as an opportunity to raise the bar of professional work sphere. We need to possibly empower our managers and encourage them to take risks fearlessly. Risk-taking and ability to take swift decisions are vital when we work on a massive project like MMRCA, the official said.


(Copyright@The New Indian Express. The above piece
appeared on November 5th edition of Express.)


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## Rafi

Our 5th Generation Aircraft from China will have the ability to checkmate anything can purchase or develop, also the J10P (Pakistan) a Pakistani specific J10 and JF17 final block 4.5 Gen and 4th Gen respectively - together with our AWACS makes our conventional deterrence in the air complete.


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## foxbat

Rafi said:


> Our 5th Generation Aircraft from China will have the ability to checkmate anything can purchase or develop, also the J10P (Pakistan) a Pakistani specific J10 and JF17 final block 4.5 Gen and 4th Gen respectively - together with our AWACS makes our conventional deterrence in the air complete.



You dont have any of the stuff you just mentioned above.. Do you??


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## rockstarIN

> PakShaheen79;2263519]Well, I didn't say anything definite regarding the Russian involvement in the this collective security alliance. All i said that is a POSSIBILITY.problem with geopolitics is that it remains business till a certain limit and after that it is inter-dependence


.

All are really underestimate Indo-Russian relations but I stop short of calling it 'all weather friendship' sort of coz I really think that all will hild own interests first. We still are friends, you remember MMS went directly to Russia after coming from Washington sealing the Nuclear deal to explain Moscow about it. 



> Weren't the US firms not aware of Indian arms market in 1990's after the dismemberment of USSR? All this new honey moon began after 9/11. the US does need a long term strategic partner in the region. I know Indian policy also seek to become a major player but think about it, Why the US is helping you guys to become a global player? Particularly, when it can also hurt her own long term strategic interests in the region.You would be a naive to think that you are the one taking advantage in others' games


.

USA was well aware of Indian arms market much before 9/11. Why did not we go to Russia for LCA problems initially and go for American LM? Our scientists were working at US when the Nuke blast happens and subsequently got embargoed. 

Everybody have own interests. It is now more than USA's to ally with India than ours. We know our stregnths. 

In Asia, India is not least player, thats why US choose India to aly with, they could have done this with Myanmer, Malaysia etc, But It cant help to contain China at all. 

And do you really think we are in their laps? remember about the MRCA, rejection of F35, we would like to keep our earlier posture.



> We learned this harsh reality in last 64 years. What India offers in return in strategic terms to the US? this is the core question. Certainly, a powerful and economically strong India would be a deterrence against China in the Indian Ocean and South East Asia. Just like Japan and Taiwan are playing their roles in the East of China.



India is not Pakistan, your leaders were short visioned not ours. They used you for Afgan purpose, twice. 

What do you think, India ever allow US jet to operate to attack China, leave even pakistan NO...

Again Indo-US partnership is about mutual interest. We have no fear to reject their best planes for the sake of our national security. Our airforce insisted to take out all American parts on whatever costs from hawk training jets from UK..



> Why, in your opinion, Russians have no concerns with China supplying J-10A to Pakistan with AL-31F engines? unlike initial RD-93 when Russians were so concerned of Chinese exporting planes with those engines to Pakistan few years back?



Again do not underestimate Indo-Russian relations, we are doing billions of biz with them. Supplying engines does not change any scenerio in south asia. It is a matter of time, may be a decade, China get the idea of engine tech. 
What do you think, If India says we will off from PAKFA if Russia not withdraw from engine sales to Pakistan. This deal does not hold such strategic value.



> Many people said here that China would NOT help us in an event of war against India. I ask why not, when Chinese Sea Line of Communications can be threatened by Indian Navy in Indian Ocean? and a strong Pakistan Navy can prevent Indian Navy from doing that. This is a natural geographic bond between the two which force Pakistan and China to support each other on political issues for mutual interests. On the other hand, After 9/11, Indian ans US interests also converged leading to a geopolitical alliance which is far from business.



Pakistan can hold defense strategy against India in the coming decades, not offensive in case of Navy as well as AF. 

It is foolishness to think PN will hold IN in Indian Ocean, and I agree with you that India is in alliancw with US and allys in waters but still we are not what UK to US.

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## PakShaheen79

majesticpankaj said:


> @Pakshaheen-- that article was posted yesterday... read this
> 
> 108 MMRCAS will roll out from Bangalore; cool HAL waits for the big winner
> 
> Bangalore: Plane-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chose not to jump into the MMRCA madness, even as aviation pundits world over are tracking every bit of news on the opening of a bumper commercial bid. While the Ministry of Defence officials scanned macro price points along with Typhoon (Eurofighter) and Rafale (Dassault) representatives in Delhi, senior officials of HAL remained cool as a cucumber. They probably knew, who ever bags the $10.4 b order, they will be the biggest winner.
> Out of the 126 combat MMRCA fighters, HAL will manufacture 108 aircraft (make category) at the Aircraft Division in Bangalore, *while the first 18 (buy category) will come in a fly-away condition from the hangars of the winner.* &#8220;First we will make few planes from a semi-knocked-down kit, then from completely knocked-down kit and finally from absolute raw material phase. Once, we are clear with the rules of the game, we will start parallel activities,&#8221; HAL sources said.
> When asked how significant will be the MMRCA project to HAL, the official said: &#8220;It will be a huge learning curve for us as we lay our hands on the next-level of fighter jet. It will also give us some learning points for our Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project. We will be able to extrapolate the MMRCA knowledge to FGFA. Definitely it is an exciting prospect to get involved with Western aircraft technology.&#8221;
> Currently HAL&#8217;s Hawk production line is abuzz with activities and they are hoping to complete the delivery of the remaining 15 aircraft (out of a total 42 made under licence) by the end of 2011-2012. &#8220;This line will be busy for couple of years more as we have an additional order of 57 aircraft. So, MMRCA will be a separate production line, with likely additional manpower,&#8221; sources said. HAL&#8217;s Engine Division in Bangalore will also play a key role in the MMRCA project.
> *While it is very sketchy to predict when the Indian Air Force will get the first HAL-built MMRCA, t*he company is seeing this as an opportunity to raise the bar of professional work sphere. &#8221;We need to possibly empower our managers and encourage them to take risks fearlessly. Risk-taking and ability to take swift decisions are vital when we work on a massive project like MMRCA,&#8221; the official said.
> 
> 
> (Copyright@The New Indian Express. The above piece
> appeared on November 5th edition of Express.)



Well, i think it endorsed what i said in my post based on other pieces published in Indian media. What is in this article to enlighten me, anyway?


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## PakShaheen79

rockstar said:


> .
> 
> It is foolishness to think PN will hold IN in Indian Ocean, and I agree with you that India is in alliancw with US and allys in waters but still we are not what UK to US.



That is exactly what i said that China is and would help us in event of war due to her own interests. As far as becoming next UK for the US, trust me... it is just the beginning. Why US would need to use your airspace to put her pilots in harm's way when you are already preparing for a two front war just like US wants. Welcome to the GREAT GEAME for dominance in Eurasian region in 21st century.


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## majesticpankaj

PakShaheen79 said:


> That is exactly what i said that China is and would help us in event of war due to her own interests. As far as becoming next UK for the US, trust me... it is just the beginning. Why US would need to use your airspace to put her pilots in harm's way when you are already preparing for a two front war just like US wants. Welcome to the GREAT GEAME for dominance in Eurasian region in 21st century.



Just replace US with china and India with pakistan -- India is not US's pawn

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## rockstarIN

PakShaheen79 said:


> That is exactly what i said that China is and would help us in event of war due to her own interests. As far as becoming next UK for the US, trust me... it is just the beginning. Why US would need to use your airspace to put her pilots in harm's way when you are already preparing for a two front war just like US wants. Welcome to the GREAT GEAME for dominance in Eurasian region in 21st century.



Any kind of Chinese help wont help PN in the event of war unless untill they directly enter the conflict, which it will always avoid as there will be more players around.

And trust me, Indian planners may be prepared a war strategy against even USA in the region, coz that is the way evey military works. Nobody wants surprises at all. So it is more of a common thing in case of two front war. |You really underestimate our policy maker's ability. They are doing quite well. We really know where we stand and Pakistani's really happy to see India is closing in with USA. MRCA rejection is a wake up call for that notion.,


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## PakShaheen79

majesticpankaj said:


> Just replace US with china and India with pakistan -- India is not US's pawn



hmmm.... really, then make me understand all this newly born hoopla of Two Front War in Indian military establishment after 2005, the year India and the US signed the nuclear deal.


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## Rafi

Our subs will form the offensive punch for our navy - with the expected purchase of largd Qing class oceanic subs - and our experience in sub warfare the IN will suffer heavy casualties both in lives and capital ships.


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## majesticpankaj

PakShaheen79 said:


> hmmm.... really, then make me understand all this newly born hoopla of Two Front War in Indian military establishment after 2005, the year India and the US signed the nuclear deal.



India and US agreement has nothing to do with two front war -- China itself had allowed tat in NSG 

The two front war "Hoopla" you need to understand int the right context

It is not because of Indopak war and china will interfere -- because we are sure that Militarily they won't interfere

It is Indo chin war and surely pakistan will try to take advantage of that -- what do you think ??

---------- Post added at 12:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------




Rafi said:


> Our subs will form the offensive punch for our navy - with the expected purchase of largd Qing class oceanic subs - and our experience in sub warfare the IN will suffer heavy casualties both in lives and capital ships.



 post that in stupid and funny section


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## PakShaheen79

rockstar said:


> Any kind of Chinese help wont help PN in the event of war unless untill they directly enter the conflict, which it will always avoid as there will be more players around.
> 
> And trust me, Indian planners may be prepared a war strategy against even USA in the region, coz that is the way evey military works. Nobody wants surprises at all. So it is more of a common thing in case of two front war. |You really underestimate our policy maker's ability. They are doing quite well. We really know where we stand and Pakistani's really happy to see India is closing in with USA. MRCA rejection is a wake up call for that notion.,



Search of Prel of String, you might understand something. Why China is supplying PN with frigates and Subs if it is all about business? Please stop making claims about your armed forces in conventional warfare. They have proved their wroth twice in this decade already.

I am not under estimating anyone here. Indeed, Indian planner would love to replace China in global scene. Wouldn't they. MRCA is rejected what about other deals, particularly the nuclear agreement? P-8i, C-130, C-17, Apaches etc. What was offered against the US offers of F-16 and F-18 was more advanced and then i think rejection was based on criteria set by IAF rather than on political grounds.


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## Rafi

majesticpankaj said:


> India and US agreement has nothing to do with two front war -- China itself had allowed tat in NSG
> 
> The two front war "Hoopla" you need to understand int the right context
> 
> It is not because of Indopak war and china will interfere -- because we are sure that Militarily they won't interfere
> 
> It is Indo chin war and surely pakistan will try to take advantage of that -- what do you think ??
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> post that in stupid and funny section



Why so insecure Panka, listen the big bad Pakistanis are not gonna hurt you unless provoked, take your feeder and go to sleep - sweet dreams.

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## rockstarIN

]


PakShaheen79 said:


> Search of Prel of String, you might understand something. Why China is supplying PN with frigates and Subs if it is all about business? Please stop making claims about your armed forces in conventional warfare. They have proved their wroth twice in this decade already.



The 'strings' still with China, its upto them how far they wants to go and harm Indian interests. The more then act against us, the more we will act. Netwon's law thts it. They are arming you, we are cooperating with their opposite's interests inm their backyards. 

And our force about the warefare, something you guys never understand, coz it is upto the level of thinking thats it. We were ruled by good leaders nothing else. By the way, why you need 'strategic depth' anyways? you have nukes, subs, JF-27s etc etc? still why? Our forces 'proved' their worth in the past. I'm sure you can see it in the world map. (not interested to go that area and flame it pls)



> I am not under estimating anyone here. Indeed, Indian planner would love to replace China in global scene. Wouldn't they. MRCA is rejected what about other deals, particularly the nuclear agreement? P-8i, C-130, C-17, Apaches etc. What was offered against the US offers of F-16 and F-18 was more advanced and then i think rejection was based on criteria set by IAF rather than on political grounds.[



We are not, and can't replace China in global scene. We do not want to/or cant become USA or RUSSIA. We are not fools ans do not think the world is roaming around us.

US offered F-35 too again and we are not interested. Nuclear agreement is in our FAVOUR, no doubt about it.

We are buying stuff which will not affect our major war power. We are buying transports etc only. 22 Apaches is not equal to 126 fighter jets at all.

Just try to look at things more broadly, you will understand for sure.


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## DARKY

Rafi said:


> Our subs will form the offensive punch for our navy - with the expected purchase of largd Qing class oceanic subs - and our experience in sub warfare the IN will suffer heavy casualties both in lives and capital ships.



What has navy got to do with the thread Here ??... on some booze ??


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## PakShaheen79

rockstar;

Like i said earlier that according to me that rejection of the US offers in MRCA were based on IAF criteria rather than geopolitics. F-35 rejection is also makes sense as IAF is already committed PAk-FA with Russia. So having two 5th generation planes from two different worlds would not make any sense either. No military acquisition is small in political sense. J-10A with Russian engine would be deployed against IAF both in offensive and defensive role. How would you describe this change in Russian stance regarding providing Pakistan with offensive weapon platform?After all Russian could have stopped all the J-10 and JF-17 production altogether if they wanted so.

Indian certainly cannot replace the China but if you say that you don't want to then again why Two-front war preparations? IAF is already bigger both in quality and quantity when compared to PAF.

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## GURU DUTT

PakShaheen79 said:


> rockstar;
> 
> Like i said earlier that according to me that rejection of the US offers in MRCA were based on IAF criteria rather than geopolitics. F-35 rejection is also makes sense as IAF is already committed PAk-FA with Russia. So having two 5th generation planes from two different worlds would not make any sense either. No military acquisition is small in political sense. J-10A with Russian engine would be deployed against IAF both in offensive and defensive role.* How would you describe this change in Russian stance regarding providing Pakistan with offensive weapon platform?After all Russian could have stopped all the J-10 and JF-17 production altogether if they wanted so.*
> 
> Indian certainly cannot replace the China but if you say that you don't want to then again *why Two-front war preparations? IAF is already bigger both in quality and quantity when compared to PAF.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Thanks Senior sir ,about your first point its like russians are doing whats in there own interests(like india is not putting all the eggs in russian basket) as in some movie there was a dialog that "to control fire on should always have water" and your second point well we have already burnt owr fingers in 1962 by not having invested in defence in northen sector so tell me do you think planners in MOD are so dumb that they wont prepare this time around , Thanks Again .


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## Storm Force

I,d rather stick to MMRCA answer. BUT FOR THE RECORD.

F35 has been rejected by india despite a very strong push from USA administration & lockheed combined towards the last few weeks.

USA is very keen to GET CLOSER to india by offering cutting edge tech and they are smarting for being rejected by IAF in MMRCA race in favour of the ueo canards. 

THIS DOES NOT NORMALLY HAPPEN TO USA getting rejected in military sales pitch.

INDIA REJECTED F35 as the MMRCA for following

IAF genuinely bel;ieves F35 being a single engined fighter will carry limited loads over limited ranges. Both Typhoon & Rafale being twin engined carry much more punch. power. 

IAF believes the unit cost at $135m basic is 20% higher than Typhoon & 25% higher than rafale

IAF believes USA will not give grant IAF 100% TOT which the euro canards will
IAF believes with so many NATO and partner nations in line for F35 first INDIA would fall into 2nd tier of supplies well past 2018 and license production 2020. Euro canards will start arrive 18 months after contract signed license production by 2014... 

Finally INDIA feels THE PAK FA 5th generation fighter is far more SECURE, project long term with RUSSIA india traditional partner with TOT. flexibility of adding euro tech into indian version = mix and match and will arrive at 2020 timeframe as well. 

VERY SENSIBLE DECISION BY INDIA

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## PiyaraPakistan

Where does this leave things on the MMRCA?


Calling this bad news for Dassault is like saying Luca Brasi is a rough man. The unexpected words of Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheik Mohamed bin Zayed on Wednesday -- released through a series of innocent looking tweets, no less -- will have created an exit wound the size of a grapefruit in the psyche of the supremely jinxed French fighter programme. A splendid fighter plane that nobody wants to buy. With this latest, decidedly rough ejection by the UAE, there's no telling where things stand for Dassault.

If you haven't been keeping up, France said it was poised to win a $10-billion deal from the UAE for 60 Rafales, a deal it has negotiating for years. On Nov 12, a day ahead of the Dubai Air Show, it became known that the "near-final" deal wasn't actually a deal at all -- and that arch-rivals Eurofighter had been invited to submit details about the Typhoon (for which they'll be in a mad scramble right now, I imagine). And today, boom. A handful of tweets by the Crown Prince brought it down with all the gentleness of a guillotine. Sample this:

"Thanks to President Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal. Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms." (Somehow, "ouch" doesn't quite say it.)

Reuters says its sources pointed to Dassault's "arrogance" as the reason behind frustration both in the French government and in the UAE. Dassault is presumably in too much shock to comment officially just yet, or may be, at the very least making an effort to confirm that this is indeed curtains in the Emirates. Either way, as FlightGlobal's Steve Trimble wrote a few days ago, "uch a loss would surely be long remembered in the industry as yet another can't-miss deal that only the French could mess up."

But it isn't over yet -- far from it. Dassault remains in "contention" -- all of this might just be the UAE's final attempt to get them to bring their final price down. They were going for the same pressure tactics when they invited the Americans in last year, and Eurofighter earlier this week. Will Dassault buckle and give UAE an acceptable price?


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## PakShaheen79

Any News about Indian decision on MRCA? I think it was supposed to be announce by Mid November 2011.


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## SpArK

PakShaheen79 said:


> Any News about Indian decision on MRCA? I think it was supposed to be announce by Mid November 2011.




Before Dec 9 .. Final date.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Any News about Indian decision on MRCA? I think it was supposed to be announce by Mid November 2011.


Interestingly, the negociations will start after tender is accepted (that being the tender price is consistent with benchmark price of ministry, otherwise tender will be reissued).


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## Vibs

PakShaheen79 said:


> Any News about Indian decision on MRCA? I think it was supposed to be announce by Mid November 2011.



Mid December
The reason why it will take 6 weeks to determine the lowest bidder.
The acquisitions manager read out in broad terms the financial terms offered by the two sides. As the executives took notes furiously, it dawned that the formulae for pricing the aircraft presented by each was so complicated that it would take weeks to determine the values.

&#8220;There is no such thing as a sticker price,&#8221; said one officer. &#8220;You don&#8217;t buy aircraft like oranges, by the kilo.&#8221;

He explained why it could take up to six weeks &#8211; may be till the end of December -- to determine the lowest bidder. &#8220;It&#8217;s a price for the whole package,&#8221; he said.

For the first 10 to 12 days, Air Headquarters expects there will be much back-and-forth between the IAF and the companies as clarifications are sought. The meeting determined that the financial bids would be tied to the price of the dollar quoted by State Bank of India&#8217;s Parliament Street branch on November 4.

The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8. M1 is the &#8220;unit flyaway cost&#8221;, the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased &#8220;off the shelf&#8221;.

M2 asks for the lifecycle costs &#8211; the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours &#8211; of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).

M3 is &#8220;operational cost&#8221;. M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a &#8220;mean time between failures&#8221; (MTBF), and lubricants.

M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade. M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence. M8 is the computation of total costs.


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## PakShaheen79

@husnain0099:

What kind of negotiation would be there after getting winner announced. Are you telling us that if there is a dead lock on price, the entire exercise would be re-exercised? M confused really ??


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> @husnain0099:
> 
> What kind of negotiation would be there after getting winner announced. Are you telling us that if there is a dead lock on price, the entire exercise would be re-exercised? M confused really ??


There have been evaluations till now, not negociations. Indian procurement process is awefully lenghty. The hawk deal took almost two decades to materialize as per Janes.


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> There have been evaluations till now, not negociations. Indian procurement process is awefully lenghty. The hawk deal took almost two decades to materialize as per Janes.



hmmm.... It means PAF would have considerable number of Block II and III of JFT, before MRCA enters IAF service and that includes the first squadron as well. But if they announce it in December (which now looks 50-50) then Block-III might come after induction of first MRCA squadron. And i am pretty sure that by that time PAF would have its hands on FC-20 as well.


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## isi admirer

block 3 had nothing to do with the mmrca as it is not for mmrca i think it would be the fc 20 who had to deal with mmrca i think 5 squadrons of fc 20 could be a good punch along with 60 blk 52 mlu and 150 jft blk 2 and we have to work on blk 3 till perfection because their must be stealth feture because the next 30 years are erra of stealth.......


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