# France says it cannot deliver Mistral warship to Russia over Ukraine



## Gabriel92

rt.com said:


> France has suspended the delivery to Russia of the first of two Mistral helicopter carrier ships, due to events in eastern Ukraine.
> 
> _“The situation is serious. Russia’s recent actions in the east of Ukraine contravene the fundamental principles of European security,”_ said a statement from the office of President Francois Hollande.
> 
> _"The president of the Republic has concluded that despite the prospect of ceasefire, which has yet to be confirmed and put in place, the conditions under which France could authorise the delivery of the first helicopter carrier are not in place."
> 
> While Moscow officials earlier admitted that in terms of efficiency and versatility the cutting-edge Mistral has no equivalent in the Russian navy, the deal was always considered controversial, as France was a Cold War adversary, and is a founding member of NATO._
> 
> The two ships were commissioned by Russia in 2011 at the cost of $1.6 billion. The first of these, the Vladivostok, was due to come into service at the end of this year, with the second, the Sevastopol, due to be completed in 2015.
> 
> France’s suspension does not fall under the sectoral sanctions the EU and the US imposed upon Russia for purported meddling in the armed conflict in eastern Ukraine, introduced last month. That raft of sanctions did not cover deals signed before their imposition.



@senheiser @vostok

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## Aepsilons

Interesting news.


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## C130

calm down frog 
didn't France already give ToT?
isn't Russia already building Mistral?
seems like Russia still got the better end of the stick in this fiasco.


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## Penguin

Gabriel92 said:


> Us's pupets.
> F*ck USA,F*ck EU.
> 
> 
> 
> @senheiser @vostok


Oh come on, surely Putin has taken this possibility into account in advance. It's quite a predictable move. He obviously other things to gain that are more important than these ships.

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## vostok

Gabriel92 said:


> Us's pupets.
> F*ck USA,F*ck EU.
> 
> 
> 
> @senheiser @vostok


Well. More sense to free Nikolayev's shipyards in Novorussia from Ukrainian junta. 
And about the fact that Americans are able to push on the French government - it is pity.

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## DejanSRB

What a bad move of France.

If France dont deliver that ships,they must pay the penalty,if that happend,Russians will earn money for nothing.

The greatest European politician in 20 century Charles de Gaulle must turning in his grave.

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## C130

if Russia isn't going to get these bad boys maybe USN should snatch them up and see how they compete against America Class and Wasp.


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## Aepsilons

If France can't sell these ships to Russia, perhaps she should consider selling them to other friendly nations. I'm sure we can consider purchasing these.

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## Thəorətic Muslim

C130 said:


> didn't France already give ToT?



ToT takes a while to transfer. You have to make new assembly lines and train.



C130 said:


> if Russia isn't going to get these bad boys maybe USN should snatch them up and see how they compete against America Class and Wasp.



We have our own.


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## Aepsilons

Seems like Japan will purchase these babies... 

Japan Should Buy the Mistrals - WSJ

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## C130

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> ToT takes a while to transfer. You have to make new assembly lines and train.
> 
> 
> 
> We have our own.



Mistral would be a hell a lot of cheaper to procure than the 3.5 billion per ship America Class
but meh gotta keep those American shipyards going though


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## Penguin

C130 said:


> calm down frog
> didn't France already give ToT?
> isn't Russia already building Mistral?
> seems like Russia still got the better end of the stick in this fiasco.


Under the agreement, the initial pair of carriers will be built jointly by France and Russia at the STX shipyards in Saint-Nazaire, France, with Russian engineers on site to learn the techniques of modern shipbuilding.. The remaining two will be manufactured in a joint venture in St. Petersburg, Russia.

The Sevastopol has been completed, and is due to be commissioned by the Russian Navy on Nov. 1 of this year. The Vladivostok will not be completed until later this year, and was expected to join the fleet in 2015. 

Upon delivery of the first pair, Russia then has the option of producing the second two Mistral carriers at home, but no decision has been made Gorenburg said — the Defense Ministry and the Navy have different positions, and pressure from the Russian defense industry to focus on domestic designs might sink the idea.

Mikhail Barabanov, a naval analyst at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a private Moscow-based defense think tank, has said Russia is unlikely to build the third and fourth carriers for both military and political reasons. The Baltic Shipyard in St. Petersburg has the best facilities in Russia for building large vessels like Mistral carriers, but its hands are currently full, having been tasked with the construction of large civilian icebreakers.

One sticking point remains, however. To fully utilize Mistral's command and control capabilities, the Navy it requires modern communications technologies that Russia does not have, and it is not clear whether their transfer was part of the Mistral deal.

Russia, France seal deal on Mistrals
Will France's Mistral Assault Warships Make Russia a Naval Threat? | Business | The Moscow Times
Why is Russia Buying Mistral Ships from France? » Center For Defense Studies
SENIT 9 | Russian Defense Policy

SENIT 9...?



> According to _Intelligence Online_ (gated), the deal will include the SENIT-9 combat information system, but without license rights and without the Link 11 and Link 16 NATO communications systems. The transfer of NATO communications systems would require the unanimous consent of all NATO members. Therefore, even though the request is currently under consideration at NATO HQ, it will be rejected. It is certain to be opposed by the Baltic states, and likely to be opposed by a number of other NATO countries including the United States. It is interesting to note that Russia’s request to receive these systems was justified by its desire to participate in joint missions with NATO navies. The lack of license rights means that Russia will not be able to use the SENIT-9 technology on other ships, nor will it be able to use the knowledge acquired by building such systems to improve its own ability to manufacture advanced combat information systems.
> The SENIT-9 systems used on the French Mistral-class ships are derived from the US Navy’s Naval Tactical Data System (NTDS) and are based on the tri-dimensional MRR3D-NG multi-role radar, built by Thales, which operates on the C Band and incorporates IFF capabilities. The French version can be connected to Link 11, Link 16, and Link 22 NATO communications systems. The purpose of the system is to centralize all data from the ship’s sensors in the ship’s command center.


The Mistral’s C2 systems | Russian Military Reform

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Nihonjin1051 said:


> If France can't sell these ships to Russia, perhaps she should consider selling them to other friendly nations. I'm sure we can consider purchasing these.



France will sell to anyone with $$$. Japan has that with the Defense spending boost. But it also has it's own ships that fit the mission/ objectives of the Mistrals.


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## atatwolf

Good move. These wespons would be used to invade another country if they sold it to Russia. They should consider selling this to Turkey for black sea to keep an eye on Russian behavior. Or to Japan in east Asia sea. I think Japan needs them more.

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## Aepsilons

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> France will sell to anyone with $$$. Japan has that with the Defense spending boost. But it also has it's own ships that fit the mission/ objectives of the Mistrals.



We were planning to buy 3 Wasp class ships from the US, but these Mistrals also fit the role. 

If true, then this is a blessing in disguise for both France and Japan.



atatwolf said:


> Good move. These wespons would be used to invade another country if they sold it to Russia. They should consider selling this to Turkey for black sea to keep an eye on Russian behavior. Or to Japan in east Asia sea. I think Japan needs them more.



I think that it could be a possibility if France sells 1 ship to Japan and 1 to Turkey. This would serve the interests of the wider NATO alliance.

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## C130

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> France will sell to anyone with $$$. Japan has that with the Defense spending boost. But it also has it's own ships that fit the mission/ objectives of the Mistrals.




bro more the merrier.
who ever does get these ships it will be a slap to Russia face 

I just like Mistral cause it's 4 times cheaper to build than America while just being a tad smaller/lighter.

viva la France oldest european ally.


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## Penguin

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Seems like Japan will purchase these babies...
> 
> Japan Should Buy the Mistrals - WSJ


Turkey approved acquisition of an LHD in 2006, selected Juan Carlos design. If the deal were good enough, perhaps they could be swayed (as their ship is yet to be constructed)

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## Gabriel92

C130 said:


> bro more the merrier.
> who ever does get these ships it will be a slap to Russia face
> 
> I just like Mistral cause it's 4 times cheaper to build than America while just being a tad smaller/lighter.
> 
> viva la France oldest european ally.



Was that a joke ? 
I thought we were the "*Cheese-eating surrender monkeys". *


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## Aepsilons

Penguin said:


> Turkey approved acquisition of an LHD in 2006, selected Juan Carlos design. If the deal were good enough, perhaps they could be swayed (as their ship is yet to be constructed)



Definitely this would be an asset to the Turkish Navy, in fact as a NATO ally, Turkey should be given priority status to these sales, as it would enhance Turkey's ability to project its power. Japan is currently building our 2nd Izumo Class Light Carrier, which is to be set to be finished in 2017. We have plans to purchase 3 Wasp Class ships as well, so in the event that the Mistrals can't be sold to us, its fine. We have other means. 

The point is; France doesn't really lose much as she has plenty of potential buyers.


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## C130

Gabriel92 said:


> Was that a joke ?
> I thought we were the "*Cheese-eating surrender monkeys". *



no 
without the Frenchies we would probably still be a colony or the revolution would of been delayed for who knows how much longer
but
we did pay back the debt in WW1 and WW2
so we're even

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Gabriel92 said:


> Was that a joke ?
> I thought we were the "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys".



You are but you're OUR Cheese-eating surrendering Monkeys.

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## tonyget

C130 said:


> Mistral would be a hell a lot of cheaper to procure than the 3.5 billion per ship America Class
> but meh gotta keep those American shipyards going though



Mistral is cheap because it is built to commercial standards not military standards


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## Penguin

Nihonjin1051 said:


> We were planning to buy 3 Wasp class ships from the US.


?! No longer being built, and they aint selling them used. > America class, if at all ....

Why buy US when Japan is already building large flat tops again? A variant of 22DDH Izumo class e.g.

The pertinent Jane's article reports only the Japananse intention to acquire an LHA/LHD. It does not at all suggest a US ship or design will be acquired. The Japanese MoD is (also) planning to perform a major refit on the _Osumi_-class to improve their amphibious capabilities.
Onodera sets out plans to buy amphibious assault ships - IHS Jane's 360
List of active Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WorldWideAircraftCarriers.com - 22DDH Class Page


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## C130

tonyget said:


> Mistral is cheap because it is built to commercial standards not military standards



go on. what's the difference in performance and safety?? and does it justify the the nearly 5 times cost increase.


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## Penguin

C130 said:


> go on. what's the difference in performance and safety?? and does it justify the the nearly 5 times cost increase.


On Mistral civil standards and technologies are used in the production process, which significantly reduces both cost and time to completion. Consider use of commercial off the shelf component versus special (re)designed military part.

So what does it mean Mistal class is built to "commercial" standard (vs military standards?)
- Structural integrity requirements are relaxed compared to military standards
- relaxed standards with regards to shock absorption, hull strength, compartmentalisation

On the plus side:
- civilian standards are pretty high these days, so structurally the differences are not as great as they were, for example, in WW2
- Most amphibs are constructed to civilian standards these days.
- it is a matter of certification: the Royal Navy upgraded HMS Ocean from Lloyd's standard to Admiralty standard after she was finished, the difference was only in reliability of electricity etc.
- civilian standards are stricter on environment

Food for thought: "throw away" light fleet carriers of the british Colossus class were constructed to Lloyd's standards in WW2 and the last one left service in ... 2001

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## Aepsilons

> Japanese Defence Minister Itsunori Onodera has said that Tokyo is to consider the purchase of at least one amphibious assault ship.
> 
> 
> "We are intending to acquire a transport ship capable of promptly sending out Self-Defense Force (SDF) units on missions to defend Japan's remote islands," Onodera told reporters after inspecting the Wasp-class assault ship USS _Makin Island_ (LHD 8) at the US Navy's San Diego base on 7 July.
> 
> The Japanese Ministry of Defence confirmed to _IHS Jane's_ in January that the Osumi class will be upgraded to allow them to embark BAE Systems AAV7A1 amphibious assault vehicles and Bell-Boeing MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft, both of which Japan intends to buy from the United States.
> 
> 
> Asked about the difference with the existing Japanese ships, Onodera pointed to the fact that the Wasp class can carry many more LCACs below deck, and that the upper deck can carry many aircraft including MV-22s. He also said the ship is also fully compatible with operations using AAV7s.



Onodera sets out plans to buy amphibious assault ships - IHS Jane's 360


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## Skull and Bones

Nihonjin1051 said:


> If France can't sell these ships to Russia, perhaps she should consider selling them to other friendly nations. I'm sure we can consider purchasing these.



Indiyeah!!!!

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## C130

Penguin said:


> ?! No longer being built, and they aint selling them used. > America class, if at all ....
> 
> Why buy US when Japan is already building large flat tops again? A variant of 22DDH Izumo class e.g.
> 
> The pertinent Jane's article reports only the Japananse intention to acquire an LHA/LHD. It does not at all suggest a US ship or design will be acquired. The Japanese MoD is (also) planning to perform a major refit on the _Osumi_-class to improve their amphibious capabilities.
> Onodera sets out plans to buy amphibious assault ships - IHS Jane's 360
> List of active Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> WorldWideAircraftCarriers.com - 22DDH Class Page



Wasp can carry more aircraft and of larger size than the Izumo?
like the V-22 Osprey??

they must have their reasons if they want'em
and by god I hope they do

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## Indischer

Skull and Bones said:


> Indiyeah!!!!



Bharatiyeah!

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## gau8av

damn that's shame, but will France have to pay a penalty under the international trade regime ?


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## Aepsilons

gau8av said:


> damn that's shame, but will France have to pay a penalty under the international trade regime ?



That remains the question. It is indeed serious if they abrogate the sales treaty, but considering the geopolitical issues at hand, im sure a ruling would be made in their (France) favor.


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## C130

gau8av said:


> damn that's shame, but will France have to pay a penalty under the international trade regime ?



depends? how it does it work??
must be a clause to abstain France of any wrong doing


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## Indischer

tonyget said:


> Mistral is cheap because it is built to commercial standards not military standards



And what exactly are "commercial standards" ? The ability to accommodate anywhere between 20-40 Helicopters, upto 50+ tanks and 500+ troops??

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## tonyget

Where is French business credibility ?

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## Thəorətic Muslim

tonyget said:


> Where is French business credibility ?



There never was. Have you tried negotiating a trade with a French Company?


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## Aepsilons

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> There never was. Have you tried negotiating a trade with a French Company?



I'm sure they're not all that bad. They're still proceeding with the $16 Billion USD fighter deal with the Indian counterparts.



Indischer said:


> And what exactly are "commercial standards" ? The ability to accommodate anywhere between 20-40 Helicopters, upto 50+ tanks and 500+ troops??



Ha Ha Ha, suffice to say we can call this ship a 'Light Carrier' or 'Helicopter Carrier'.

But the Chinese can refer to these as 'Commercial' standards if they so desire.


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## C130

we can argue about "commerical" or "military" standards, but as long as it's seaworthy and can handle the rough seas I don't see a difference except you saving a shit ton of $$.

and plus if a anti-ship missiles hits one of these don't think it would really matter. you going to have one bad day.


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## Aepsilons

C130 said:


> we can argue about "commerical" or "military" standards, but as long as it's seaworthy and can handle the rough seas I don't see a difference except you saving a shit ton of $$.
> 
> and plus if a anti-ship missiles hits one of these don't think it would really matter. you going to have one bad day.



I doubt an SSM would be able to hit this in actual battle formation, considering the formation in a naval flotilla, these would be placed in the center , with any carrier based platform, with its flanks protected by a combination of corvettes, frigates, destroyers and or cruisers.


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## Indischer

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I'm sure they're not all that bad. They're still proceeding with the $16 Billion USD fighter deal with the Indian counterparts.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha Ha Ha, suffice to say we can call this ship a 'Light Carrier' or 'Helicopter Carrier'.
> 
> But the Chinese can refer to these as 'Commercial' standards if they so desire.



Suffice to say that Chinese guy's trolling was of a very low standard.  

If India shows some wherewithal, it can secure an excellent helicopter carrier in very quick time. After all, India is also scouting for such ships and might well end up selecting the Mistrals after a lengthy selection process.

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## Aepsilons

Indischer said:


> Suffice to say that Chinese guy's trolling was of a very low standard.



Perhaps just poor knowledge on naval warfare and battle tactics.

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## tonyget

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Ha Ha Ha, suffice to say we can call this ship a 'Light Carrier' or 'Helicopter Carrier'.
> 
> But the Chinese can refer to these as 'Commercial' standards if they so desire.




Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.


French Mistral Amphibious Assault Ships Still On Track Delivery Russia



> _As noted above, the ship’s most important weapons will be its helicopters.
> 
> Beyond that, the Mistral Class is built to *commercial standards, rather than naval combat standards*, and currently carries very light defensive systems: 4 machine gun stations, a pair of 30mm guns, and a pair of manual Simbad twin-launchers for MBDA’s very short-range Mistral anti-aircraft missiles. Deployment in zones that feature anti-ship missiles, such as the 2006 evacuation off of Lebanon, requires protective escort ships._





Indischer said:


> Suffice to say that Chinese guy's trolling was of a very low standard.



The honor is all yours


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## Aepsilons

tonyget said:


> Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.
> 
> 
> French Mistral Amphibious Assault Ships Still On Track Delivery Russia



It comes lightly armed but the nation which would acquire this can modify the defensive armaments. Modification to arm this vessel with ship based anti ship missiles, 2 x phalanx CIWSs, 2 x SeaRAM CIWSs, modified anti-torpedo mobile decoy, floating acoustic jammer, Mark 36 SRBOC, QQ-23 bow sonar, OPS 28 surface search radar, OPS 50 AESA radar, FCS systems and any host of ASW helicopters and aircraft.

Thus said, the French Mistral is rather cheap , it costs half than the Izumo Class , which stands at $1.2 Billion. This would be perfect for JMSDF plans to expand our AAS force.

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## tonyget

Nihonjin1051 said:


> It comes lightly armed but the nation which would acquire this can modify the defensive armaments. Modification to arm this vessel with ship based anti ship missiles, 2 x phalanx CIWSs, 2 x SeaRAM CIWSs, modified anti-torpedo mobile decoy, floating acoustic jammer, Mark 36 SRBOC, QQ-23 bow sonar, OPS 28 surface search radar, OPS 50 AESA radar, FCS systems and any host of ASW helicopters and aircraft.
> 
> Thus said, the French Mistral is rather cheap , it costs half than the Izumo Class , which stands at $1.2 Billion. This would be perfect for JMSDF plans to expand our AAS force.




Then why do you think this ship is so cheap ? Remember the French are not well known for make cheap weapons.


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## Schutz

Was eyeing up various ships earlier, the NATO summit is in my city and I went down the bay, HMS Duncan was probably the best ship there.


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## Aepsilons

tonyget said:


> Then why do you think this ship is so cheap ? Remember the French are not well known for make cheap weapons.



1 Mistral is worth $600 Million. 1 Izumo Class is worth $1.2 Billion (without armaments) = $1.4 Billion + with armament.

Why, even these ships are cheaper than our smaller Lighter Carrier, the Hyuga Class which is worth 100 Billion Yen a piece, equivalent to about $950 Million.

*Hyuga Class*















*Izumo Class*

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## ptldM3

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Seems like Japan will purchase these babies...
> 
> Japan Should Buy the Mistrals - WSJ




About half of the ship was built in Russia. There is also Russian weapons systems and electronics onboard. The only way France is selling the Mistral to anyone is if it removes the aft part of the haul as well as electronics and weapons systems. 

If France does sell the ship to Japan the Russian navy will probably annex the ship and send the Japanese crew home on rubber dinghies.


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## Indischer

tonyget said:


> Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.
> 
> 
> French Mistral Amphibious Assault Ships Still On Track Delivery Russia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The honor is all yours



And I repeat, what exactly were the commercial standards followed during construction of these ships,and in which aspects?

The Mistrals come with armour-protected hulls, which are not seen in any ship built for commercial operation. This alone would qualify them to be classified as vessels built to military standards. As for armament, it need not even have a single gun onboard, as engaging in active combat is not it's role. It will always be escorted by ships who carry the firepower needed to protect her and themselves. Besides, armament on such large ships is always scalable.

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## tonyget

Indischer said:


> And I repeat, what exactly were the commercial standards followed during construction of these ships,and in which aspects?
> 
> The Mistrals come with armour-protected hulls, which are not seen in any ship built for commercial operation. This alone would qualify them to be classified as vessels built to military standards. As for armament, it need not even have a single gun onboard, as engaging in active combat is not it's role. It will always be escorted by ships who carry the firepower needed to protect her and themselves. Besides, armament on such large ships is always scalable.



Even among Europe ,French weapons are most expensive ones. So you tell me why the Mistrals are so damn cheap ?


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## Indischer

tonyget said:


> Even among Europe ,French weapons are most expensive ones. So you tell me why the Mistrals are so damn cheap ?



Who says they're damn cheap?? They're COMPARATIVELY cheaper. 600 million is no small amount, in case you didn't notice it yet. And check again, they're still the costliest amphibious assault ship design from Europe. Add to the ship it's air and water-borne complement, and the cost will be well-near 1.5Billion$.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Nihonjin1051 said:


> We were planning to buy 3 Wasp class ships from the US, but these Mistrals also fit the role.
> 
> If true, then this is a blessing in disguise for both France and Japan.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that it could be a possibility if France sells 1 ship to Japan and 1 to Turkey. This would serve the interests of the wider NATO alliance.



The Mistral's are significantly smaller than a Wasp/America. 199m vs 257m, 21,000 tons vs 45,000 tons.

That's a big deal if you want F35Bs.

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## senheiser

idiotic move made by another US ally (colony) here is some reality check

Russia hasnt paid
Russia Won't Pay for French Mistral Warships Until Second Delivered | Business | The Moscow Times

and Russia got technology
France Transfers Mistral Technology to Russia Ahead of Schedule

So basicly Russia got the technology to built these ships for free from France 




> *02.11.2012
> France transfers construction technology of Mistral-class amphibious assault ships to Russia ahead of schedule, reports RIA Novosti referring to Russian defense minister Anatoly Serdiukov.*
> 
> As for him, "French partners are handing over new technologies not only for the first two _Mistral_s but even for third and fourth ones", reports the news agency.

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## C130

senheiser said:


> idiotic move made by another US ally (colony) here is some reality check
> 
> Russia hasnt paid
> Russia Won't Pay for French Mistral Warships Until Second Delivered | Business | The Moscow Times
> 
> and Russia got technology
> France Transfers Mistral Technology to Russia Ahead of Schedule
> 
> So basicly Russia got the technology to built these ships for free from France



heh, U.S colony that's cute.
and we'll see just how much knowledge Russia truly got from the Frenchies.


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## Aepsilons

Peter C said:


> The Mistral's are significantly smaller than a Wasp/America. 199m vs 257m, 21,000 tons vs 45,000 tons.



That is right. Its almost as large as the Chinese Carrier Liaoning (standard displacement of 53,000 tonnes), the WASP class has a standard displacement of 45,000 tonnes. 

The Liaoning can carry up to 30+ aircraft plus 20 or so helicopters. The WASP class can carry up to 22+ F-35Bs, and up to 15 helicopters. Its actually beginner than the INS Viraat, which has a displacement of only 23,000 tonnes. It carries the same amount of tonnage as the INS Vikramaditya, which also is at 45,000 tonnes. 

In all tense and purposes the WASP Class or the AMERICA Class can be considered Aircraft Carriers....


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## tonyget

Indischer said:


> Who says they're damn cheap?? They're COMPARATIVELY cheaper. 600 million is no small amount, in case you didn't notice it yet.



A cargo ship with same displacement would cost that much


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## C130

not a bad looking ship for the price


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## Hamartia Antidote

senheiser said:


> idiotic move made by another US ally (colony) here is some reality check
> 
> Russia hasnt paid
> Russia Won't Pay for French Mistral Warships Until Second Delivered | Business | The Moscow Times
> 
> and Russia got technology
> France Transfers Mistral Technology to Russia Ahead of Schedule
> 
> So basicly Russia got the technology to built these ships for free from France



I doubt France would hand over anything for free.What would stop Russia from backing out the second they got the plans?

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## Aepsilons

*Mistral Class of the French Navy*

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## mike2000

I think this should send a strong signal to Russia that they cant expect to keep intervening in Ukraine without consequences. I really dont understand Russias actions. they should just have seized Crimea and stop there. they had already achived their objectives, But they still seem to want eastern Ukraine as well. This is different from Crimea, as its not a land that was ceded by presidencial decree or whatever. So Russia should seek a peaceful solution to this situation, since continuing arming and sending its troops convertly in Ukraine will only make matters worst for it and the west as well. Nobody benefits from this situation. 

In this regard , i welcome france decision. I think it might make Putin think twice about his actions. Since France has an independent foreign policy and is selfish of its soverignty and has gone against U.S interests/decisions in the past several times. so it cant be seen as just a pressure/being a puppet of the U.S, but reflects a genuine fustration with Russias actions.

In some way, its good this crisis happened, since Europe was beginning to think Russia will never act aggressively the way they did, and our officials had been reducing military size/budgets thinking we have no immediate threats in the neighbourhood. Ukraine crisis changed everything. Now we are going to start take more measures to maintain/increase our defence postures and not always wait for the U.S to share all the burden.

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## C130

poor russia no place to put her KA-52K in the foreseeable future






time to call the Chinese

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Nihonjin1051 said:


>



Just feed your Hyuga some Big Macs instead of Sushi, i'm sure it'll grow in size 

But seriously, Mistral maybe cheaper than the Hyuga, but you have to consider the armament on the Hyunga, im sure when you start adding Mk 41s, Phalanxs, torpedoes the price tag will go up. 

Along with modifying the systems to the ones the JDF is used to the tag will go higher.



ptldM3 said:


> If France does sell the ship to Japan the Russian navy will probably annex the ship and send the Japanese crew home on rubber dinghies.



Hey only we *American Flag* can make fun of the French. @Gabriel92

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## C130

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> Just feed your Hyuga some Big Macs instead of Sushi, i'm sure it'll grow in size
> 
> But seriously, Mistral maybe cheaper than the Hyuga, but you have to consider the armament on the Hyunga, im sure when you start adding Mk 41s, Phalanxs, torpedoes the price tag will go up.
> 
> Along with modifying the systems to the ones the JDF is used to the tag will go higher.



brah even at a billion a pop the Mistral is a steal IMO


----------



## tonyget

Nihonjin1051 said:


> That is right. Its almost as large as the Chinese Carrier Liaoning (standard displacement of 53,000 tonnes), the WASP class has a standard displacement of 45,000 tonnes.
> 
> The Liaoning can carry up to 30+ aircraft plus 20 or so helicopters. The WASP class can carry up to 22+ F-35Bs, and up to 15 helicopters. Its actually beginner than the INS Viraat, which has a displacement of only 23,000 tonnes. It carries the same amount of tonnage as the INS Vikramaditya, which also is at 45,000 tonnes.
> 
> In all tense and purposes the WASP Class or the AMERICA Class can be considered Aircraft Carriers....




The WASP's deck won't withstand the thermal effects of F35B STOVL without modification, same goes for Mistral.


----------



## Aepsilons

C130 said:


> poor russia no place to put her KA-52K in the foreseeable future
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time to call the Chinese




I'm sure the Russians can purchase the Yuzhao Type 071 of the People's Liberation Army Navy:






Its not that bad, it even has a tonnage of 20,000. Good news is that its cheaper than the Mistral, its at $300 million per ship.


----------



## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> 1 Mistral is worth $600 Million. 1 Izumo Class is worth $1.2 Billion (without armaments) = $1.4 Billion + with armament.
> 
> Why, even these ships are cheaper than our smaller Lighter Carrier, the Hyuga Class which is worth 100 Billion Yen a piece, equivalent to about $950 Million.
> 
> *Hyuga Class*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Izumo Class*



Wow, Nice quality toys Japans got there. Japan sure got a nice/powerful Navy. Good Japan focuses most of its defence budget on its Navy.

Well to be honest Japans products tend to be rather quite costly when compared to those of the west/or any other country for that matter. Even if/when they aren't really on par with those of the west/U.S. Can you explain such high prices for Japanese goods why Nihonji? Is it because of raw materials(which Japan lacks and has to import) or?

On another note, whats the displacement of Hyuga and Izumo class, Nihonji?

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## Thəorətic Muslim

C130 said:


> brah even at a billion a pop the Mistral is a steal IMO



The Mistral is equipped, within it's blueprint, to handle the armament given to it:

Storage:
59 vehicles (including 13 AMX-56 Leclerc tanks) or a 40-strong Leclerc tank battalion

Troops:
900 (short duration)
450 (long durations)
150 (serving as operational headquarters)
20 officers, 80 petty officers, 60 quarter-masters

Weapons:

2 × Simbad systems
4 × 12.7 mm M2-HB Browning machine guns
16 heavy or 35 light helicopters
6 helicopter landing spots

Any change to add some other systems like the Mk41, CRMG, SAMs, Missile Cells, will require drastic blueprint modifications. 

Changes to blueprints is pretty much making a different ship. The Mistral is priced at $600M because the French marketing team thinks it can produce enough ships to offset the R&D and also assembly line. 

Much like the UAE's F-16 Block 60? Same design, but different layout. Lockheed charged for the modifications, but will repay UAE royalties if the jet sells.


----------



## C130

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I'm sure the Russians can purchase the Yuzhao Type 071 of the People's Liberation Army Navy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not that bad, it even has a tonnage of 20,000. Good news is that its cheaper than the Mistral, its at $300 million per ship.




looks like it can't carry many helicopters though 

and jesus christ only 300 million a ship and we are paying almost 2 billion for San Antonio class.......grrrrrrrr we suck at bang for buck

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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> On another note, whats the displacement of Hyuga and Izumo class, Nihonji?



Full load displacement of the Hyuga Class is 19,000 tonnes. Full load displacement of the Izumo Class is 27,000 tonnes.



C130 said:


> looks like it can't carry many helicopters though



It can carry up to 4 helis and can transport a host of material, which , i think that is the main goal of the Russians.

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## senheiser

Peter C said:


> I doubt France would hand over anything for free.What would stop Russia from backing out the second they got the plans?


why else you think they are so defence to cut the deal, they know they are the ones who will lose out the most


----------



## Aepsilons

C130 said:


> and jesus christ only 300 million a ship and we are paying almost 2 billion for San Antonio class.......grrrrrrrr we suck at bang for buck



The cost of 1 Hyuga class, we can buy 3 of the Chinese' Yunzhao Type 071.

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## mike2000

C130 said:


> *looks like it can't carry many helicopters though*
> 
> and jesus christ only 300 million a ship and we are paying almost 2 billion for San Antonio class.......grrrrrrrr we suck at bang for buck



That's what i was thinking as well, thats the main draw back. Though i never knew China makes amphibious transport ships as well. Nice ship though. Kudos.


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## C130

[/quote]


Thəorətic Muslim said:


> The Mistral is equipped, within it's blueprint, to handle the armament given to it:
> 
> Storage:
> 59 vehicles (including 13 AMX-56 Leclerc tanks) or a 40-strong Leclerc tank battalion
> 
> Troops:
> 900 (short duration)
> 450 (long durations)
> 150 (serving as operational headquarters)
> 20 officers, 80 petty officers, 60 quarter-masters
> 
> Weapons:
> 
> 2 × Simbad systems
> 4 × 12.7 mm M2-HB Browning machine guns
> 16 heavy or 35 light helicopters
> 6 helicopter landing spots
> 
> Any change to add some other systems like the Mk41, CRMG, SAMs, Missile Cells, will require drastic blueprint modifications.
> 
> Changes to blueprints is pretty much making a different ship. The Mistral is priced at $600M because the French marketing team thinks it can produce enough ships to offset the R&D and also assembly line.
> 
> Much like the UAE's F-16 Block 60? Same design, but different layout. Lockheed charged for the modifications, but will repay UAE royalties if the jet sells.



meh most western tanks are all the same dimensions almost.
most weapons systems are easily adaptable to any ship...for instance. Phalanx and RIM-116, you can plop on some bushmaster as well.

mk-41 is a different case and I don't think any helicopter carrier uses it.

so I doubt any major modifications would be needed. that's why the Russians could put Russia weapons on it with no problem


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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> That's what i was thinking as well, thats the main draw back. Though i never knew China makes amphibious ships as well. Nice ship though. Kudos.



I do believe that the PLAN is designing a new AAS prototype that is similar to the Wasp Class. I can confirm this from military sources of the JMSDF.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Well, better to save more money to invest more in the indigenous aircraft carrier project.


----------



## F-22Raptor

This is welcome news from the French.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> Well. More sense to free Nikolayev's shipyards in Novorussia from Ukrainian junta.
> And about the fact that Americans are able to push on the French government - it is pity.



Let's hope the blueprint of the Ulyanovsk supercarrier is still available.


----------



## Aepsilons

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> The Mistral is equipped, within it's blueprint, to handle the armament given to it:
> 
> Storage:
> 59 vehicles (including 13 AMX-56 Leclerc tanks) or a 40-strong Leclerc tank battalion
> 
> Troops:
> 900 (short duration)
> 450 (long durations)
> 150 (serving as operational headquarters)
> 20 officers, 80 petty officers, 60 quarter-masters
> 
> Weapons:
> 
> 2 × Simbad systems
> 4 × 12.7 mm M2-HB Browning machine guns
> 16 heavy or 35 light helicopters
> 6 helicopter landing spots
> 
> Any change to add some other systems like the Mk41, CRMG, SAMs, Missile Cells, will require drastic blueprint modifications.
> 
> Changes to blueprints is pretty much making a different ship. The Mistral is priced at $600M because the French marketing team thinks it can produce enough ships to offset the R&D and also assembly line.
> 
> Much like the UAE's F-16 Block 60? Same design, but different layout. Lockheed charged for the modifications, but will repay UAE royalties if the jet sells.



This is a perfect platform for quick deployment of forces to war zones, what it lacks in armor , it gains in deployment speed and maintenance cost. The question is whether or not the Mistral will be capable of carrying and deploying the F-35Bs.


----------



## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I do believe that the PLAN is designing a new AAS prototype that is similar to the Wasp Class. I can confirm this from military sources of the JMSDF.



Is it?  Havent heard of that. Seems the Chinese are sure getting ambitious to match the U.S. in the coming decades.


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## C130

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, better to save more money to invest more in the indigenous aircraft carrier project.



Russia doesn't have the capability to build a Mistral that's why they wanted Western design and help
and yeah they can save up
but now it's going to cost a lot more to design and build a indigenous one and take more time.


----------



## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> Is it?  Havent heard of that. Seems the Chinese are sure getting ambitious to match the U.S. in the coming decades.



Its part of their IP acquisition strategem. Bad for us, but it guarantees that they're always behind.

Remember, they're developing something similar to the Wasp class, but the Untied States Navy has already plans to decommission its Wasp class and replace them with the America Class AAS.

Yanks are always ahead of the ball game by a league or two. LOL!

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## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The cost of 1 Hyuga class, we can buy 3 of the Chinese' Yunzhao Type 071.



ahahahahah..... Exactly, thats why i was asking you why Japanese equipments/products tend to be so expensive compared to even those we in the west produce..


----------



## Superboy

Is there any way to scale up Ivan Gren which is currently under construction?

Ivan Gren-class landing ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> ahahahahah..... Exactly, thats why i was asking you why Japanese equipments/products tend to be so expensive compared to even those we in the west produce..



We Japanese emphasize quality over quantity.


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## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> Russia doesn't have the capability to build a Mistral that's why they wanted Western design and help
> and yeah they can save up
> but now it's going to cost a lot more to design and build a indigenous one and take more time.



Because they are spending more to maintain the sub fleet, which is considered to be more crucial for them.


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## Superboy

I think air power based at Vladivostok should be sufficient for the near future. PAK-FA has plenty of combat radius.


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## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Its part of their IP acquisition strategem. Bad for us, but it guarantees that they're always behind.
> 
> Remember, they're developing something similar to the Wasp class, but the Untied States Navy has already plans to decommission its Wasp class and replace them with the America Class AAS.
> 
> Yanks are always ahead of the ball game by a league or two. LOL!



Yes i know. The U.S is at least 2 decades ahead of anyone/country in the world. However, it wont be a never ending cycle. Remember there was a time when we ruled the world/ocean, Nobody could ever imagine our former subject the U.S could even come close to us.lol Today its a different story. So at some point they will catch up and even overtake if they keep growing and make use of their true potential. Remember they really just started their modernization a decade or so ago. So we will ahve to wait and see.


----------



## Superboy

mike2000 said:


> Yes i know. The U.S is at least 2 decades ahead of anyone/country in the world. However, it wont be a never ending cycle. Remember there was a time when we ruled the world/ocean, Nobody could ever imagine our former subject the U.S could even come close to us.lol Today its a different story. So at some point they will catch up and even overtake if they keep growing and make use of their true potential. Remember they really just started their modernization a decade or so ago. So we will ahve to wait and see.




I don't think Britain ever had tech superiority over Americans, did they?


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## C130

Superboy said:


> Is there any way to scale up Ivan Gren which is currently under construction?
> 
> Ivan Gren-class landing ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



interesting.



Superboy said:


> I don't think Britain ever had tech superiority over Americans, did they?



Radar.
Engines
some other crap I bet too


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> Is there any way to scale up Ivan Gren which is currently under construction?
> 
> Ivan Gren-class landing ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I don't think this is feasible because of the speed. The Ivan Gren Class has a speed of up to 18 knots, compare that with the JS Hyuga which has a speed of 30 knots, or the JS Izumo with a speed of 30+ knots. Even the Wasp class travels faster at 22- 25 knots.


----------



## Superboy

C130 said:


> Radar.
> Engines
> some other crap I bet too




Radars I think so. But engine I think not. P-40 and P-39 were pretty well matched against Spitfire and Hurricane.


----------



## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I'm sure the Russians can purchase the Yuzhao Type 071 of the People's Liberation Army Navy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not that bad, it even has a tonnage of 20,000. Good news is that its cheaper than the Mistral, its at $300 million per ship.



Ahahahahahah........are you nuts my friend Nihonji?. Russia will never buy such weapons from China(they might buy e parts whuch they seem to be doing now since we impsoed sanctions on them), they still see themselves as superior(which they are militarily, though not in all aspects/fields anymore) to the Chinese and have too much pride to purchase such systems from a country that was once a junior/small partner. They will rather buy from us. How times are changing.


----------



## Superboy

Type 071 is pretty old. Aren't the Chinese coming up with their next gen landing ships?


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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> Ahahahahahah........are you nuts my friend Nihonji?. Russia will never buy such weapons from China(they might buy e parts whuch they seem to be doing now since we impsoed sanctions on them), they still see themselves as superior(which they are militarily, though not in all aspects/fields anymore) to the Chinese and have too much pride to purchase such systems from a country that was once a junior/small partner. They will rather buy from us. How times are changing.



You think it would be considered an insult for them to buy Chinese ?


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> You think it would be considered an insult for them to buy Chinese ?




China is the top dog of the SCO alliance. I don't think it would be insulting for Russians to buy from Chinese, but more realistically share technology such as diverterless supersonic intake


----------



## F-22Raptor

mike2000 said:


> Yes i know. The U.S is at least 2 decades ahead of anyone/country in the world. However, it wont be a never ending cycle. Remember there was a time when we ruled the world/ocean, Nobody could ever imagine our former subject the U.S could even come close to us.lol Today its a different story. So at some point they will catch up and even overtake if they keep growing and make use of their true potential. Remember they really just started their modernization a decade or so ago. So we will ahve to wait and see.



The US has been launching the X-47B off carriers for a year now, while China has no real naval aviation experience to speak of. Lets not get crazy...


----------



## Superboy

F-22Raptor said:


> The US has been launching the X-47B off carriers for a year now, while China has no real naval aviation experience to speak of. Lets not get crazy...




X47B is nothing but an RC toy. No intelligence.


----------



## C130

China pretty much spat on Russia when they rejected on working together on Pak-FA
I wonder if they'll work together on building a ship like Mistral 

Russia needs China more than China needs Russia that's sad 



Superboy said:


> X47B is nothing but an RC toy. No intelligence.



wait til x47-C with DSI your mouth will water


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> China is the top dog of the SCO alliance. I don't think it would be insulting for Russians to buy from Chinese, but more realistically share technology such as diverterless supersonic intake



Considering the fact that most of Russia's arms partners in the West (Germany, France, UK) are showing signs of selective bias, it might become a necessity for Russia to partner with China in defense processes. It is by economic necessity.
Whatever the case, best wishes to our Russian counterparts.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 said:


> Ahahahahahah........are you nuts my friend Nihonji?. Russia will never buy such weapons from China(they might buy e parts whuch they seem to be doing now since we impsoed sanctions on them), they still see themselves as superior(which they are militarily, though not in all aspects/fields anymore) to the Chinese and have too much pride to purchase such systems from a country that was once a junior/small partner. They will rather buy from us. How times are changing.



Russia will expand the business with China, so they can acquire more cash to invest in their home made weapons.


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Considering the fact that most of Russia's arms partners in the West (Germany, France, UK) are showing signs of selective bias, it might become a necessity for Russia to partner with China in defense processes. It is by economic necessity.
> Whatever the case, best wishes to our Russian counterparts.




Yeah man. The US won't allow Japan to develop fighters. China and Russia should show an example of technology sharing. DSI from China. 3D thrust vectoring from Russia.


----------



## F-22Raptor

Superboy said:


> X47B is nothing but an RC toy. No intelligence.


----------



## Aepsilons

F-22Raptor said:


> The US has been launching the X-47B off carriers for a year now, while China has no real naval aviation experience to speak of. Lets not get crazy...



@F-22Raptor , this is more the reason its important for US defense companies need to cooperate with US contract cyber security personnel to prevent loss of Intellectual Property to outside forces. Imagine, the cost to develop such R&D is in the billions of dollars; these hackers can acquire and bypass years of research. 

So long as the US remains the pre-eminent force in terms of R&D, it will remain under constant attack by data miners. Unfortunately.


----------



## C130

why would China help a competitor?
China is on the verge of knocking Russia out of the Arms Market with knock off soviet planes that are advanceed with Chinese science (engine,radar,avionics,weapons)  

they would lose money by making Russia strong again just saying. it's business you know

only thing China wants from Russia is nat gas and oil, and in the few decades all of Siberia east of the Urals


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> Yeah man. The US won't allow Japan to develop fighters. China and Russia should show an example of technology sharing. DSI from China. 3D thrust vectoring from Russia.



No, you are very wrong. You're talking to someone who has professional links to the JMSDF.


----------



## mike2000

Superboy said:


> I don't think Britain ever had tech superiority over Americans, did they?



Bro are you being sarcastic or serious?
Our Empire and its navy during its heydays had no equivalent/challenger(apart from Germany who tried and failed). The U.S wasnt even in the same league with the europeans let alone the british empire. The hell they were our colony until 1776. it would have been longer if not for the treacherous frenchies.


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> No, you are very wrong. You're talking to someone who has professional links to the JMSDF.




F-3 is extremely restricted. Being JF-17 classed, plus not allowed to first fly until 2017 at the earliest, by which time J-20 and PAK-FA enter service. The US puts a lot of restrictions on Japan. The US wants Japan to use F-35 starting in 2019 so as to control Japan.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> why would China want competition from Russia? why help a competitior?
> China is on the verge of knocking Russia out of the Arms Market with knock off soviet planes that are advance with Chinese science (engine,radar,avionioncs,weapons)  they would lose money making Russia strong again just saying. it's business you know
> 
> only thing China wants from Russia is nat gas and oil, and in the few decades all of Sibera east of the Urals



We won't, we will buy S-400 and Su-35 in order to keep the Russian arm industry thriving.


----------



## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> Bro are you being sarcastic or serious?
> Our Empire and its navy during its heydays had no equivalent/challenger(apart from Germany who tried and failed). The U.S wasnt even in the same league with the europeans let alone the british empire. The hell they were our colony until 1776. it would have been longer if not for the treasurous frenchies.



The pendulum swung in favor of the Americans after Churchill and Roosevelt signed the Lend and Lease Act, in fact, the specifics of the Act practically doomed the British Empire's foreign possessions. The Yanks got preferential treatment in trade , as well as intellectual intel that allowed their armed forces to rule. Brittania was left with no choice, as it was under heel of the Wermacht.

Yanks helped Britain for a price,.... global supremacy.

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## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> We Japanese emphasize quality over quantity.



You mean we in the west are emphasize Quantity over quality?


----------



## F-22Raptor

Nihonjin1051 said:


> @F-22Raptor , this is more the reason its important for US defense companies need to cooperate with US contract cyber security personnel to prevent loss of Intellectual Property to outside forces. Imagine, the cost to develop such R&D is in the billions of dollars; these hackers can acquire and bypass years of research.
> 
> So long as the US remains the pre-eminent force in terms of R&D, it will remain under constant attack by data miners. Unfortunately.


Agreed, but nations that go after our companies IP will always be a step behind.

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## Superboy

F-22Raptor said:


> Agreed, but nations that go after our companies IP will always be a step behind.




not as long as American people's brains keep shrinking


----------



## C130

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We won't, we will buy S-400 and Su-35 in order to keep the Russian arm industry thriving.



that's make no sense!!!!
you want Russia to compete with you?
you only want the engine from SU-35
and maybe the radar I dunno
if China can make some hypersonic carrier killer vehicles and think she can manage to make S-400/500 SAM


----------



## tonyget

Nihonjin1051 said:


> We Japanese emphasize quality over quantity.



That's why Japanese lost consumer electronics markets to SK/TW/CN.


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> F-3 is extremely restricted. Being JF-17 classed, plus not allowed to first fly until 2017 at the earliest, by which time J-20 and PAK-FA enter service. The US puts a lot of restrictions on Japan. The US wants Japan to use F-35 starting in 2019 so as to control Japan.



My dear, the F-35 is to replace the JASDF's fleet of F-4s, and some of the F-15Js. The Mitsubishi F3 and F3B will replace the host of F-15Js and F-2s in the JMSDF Aviation Fleet and the JASDF Air Fleet.


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> My dear, the F-35 is to replace the JASDF's fleet of F-4s, and some of the F-15Js. The Mitsubishi F3 and F3B will replace the host of F-15Js and F-2s in the JMSDF Aviation Fleet and the JASDF Air Fleet.




What's the difference between JASDF and JASDF Air Fleet?


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> not as long as American people's brains keep shrinking



The answer to this is the 'Genius Visa' aka H1B

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## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> that's make no sense!!!!
> you want Russia to compete with you?
> you only want the engine from SU-35
> and maybe the radar I dunno
> if China can make some hypersonic carrier killer vehicles and think she can manage to make S-400/500 SAM



We don't need the engine of Su-35, we already have the more advanced WS-15, and soon it will be flying on the J-20 prototype 2013.

However, we are already the number one manufacturing factory in the world, so it is not wise to eat up all the cake and don't leave anything to your partner.

Russia has requested us long time ago to not only buy their natural resources, but also to buy their physical manufacturing products, so now it is our duty to fulfill the request of our partner.

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## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> What's the difference between JASDF and JASDF Air Fleet?



JMSDF Aviation Fleet is part of the air wing of the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force. 

JASDF Air Fleet is the combined attack fighters and air superiority fighters of the Japan Air Self Defense Force. 

The two, JMSDF and JASDF, are totally different branches of the JSDF.

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## Superboy

IMO F-3 is too small to replace F-15. It's only JF-17 sized plus only has two 11,000 lb engines.


----------



## C130

Superboy said:


> not as long as American people's brains keep shrinking





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We don't need the engine of Su-35, we already have the more advanced WS-15, and soon it will be flying on the J-20 prototype 2013.
> 
> However, we are already the number one manufacturing factory in the world, so it is not wise to eat up all the cake and don't left anything to your partner.
> 
> Russia has requested us long time ago to not only buy their natural resources, but also to buy their physical manufacturing products, so now it is our duty to fulfill the request of our partner.



mehhhhhhhh
can't wait til we move our factories out of China

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## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> mehhhhhhhh
> can't wait til we move our factories out of China



The healthy competition is always needed.


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> IMO F-3 is too small to replace F-15. It's only JF-17 sized plus only has two 11,000 lb engines.



The size of fighter does not equate to air combat capability.

In WWII, the Mitsubishi A6M Zero was considered small compared to the British, American, Dutch variants, but it dominated the skies in the Asia Pacific for the first 3 years of the war. Speed and maneuverability gave the Japanese Zero the fighting edge, as proven when the Imperial Air Force eradicated all Dutch air units in the Battle of Java, as well as crushing American Air Power during the Conquest of the Philippines in 1942. It was much later in the war when the Americans introduced the Chance Vought F4U Corsair, that it changed the tide of naval aviation warfare.



C130 said:


> mehhhhhhhh
> can't wait til we move our factories out of China



LOL, hold your horses cowboy. It will be a gradual shift, not an acute one.

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## C130

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The size of fighter does not equate to air combat capability.
> 
> In WWII, the Mitsubishi A6M Zero was considered small compared to the British, American, Dutch variants, but it dominated the skies in the Asia Pacific for the first 3 years of the war. Speed and maneuverability gave the Japanese Zero the fighting edge, as proven when the Imperial Air Force eradicated all Dutch air units in the Battle of Java, as well as crushing American Air Power during the Conquest of the Philippines in 1942. It was much later in the war when the Americans introduced the Chance Vought F4U Corsair, that it changed the tide of naval aviation warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, hold your horses cowboy. It will be a gradual shift, not an acute one.



don't forget the Grumman Hellcat as well


----------



## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The pendulum swung in favor of the Americans after Churchill and Roosevelt signed the Lend and Lease Act, in fact, the specifics of the Act practically doomed the British Empire's foreign possessions. The Yanks got preferential treatment in trade , as well as intellectual intel that allowed their armed forces to rule. Brittania was left with no choice, as it was under heel of the Wermacht.
> 
> Yanks helped Britain for a price,.... global supremacy.



You seem quite well versed in many subjects Nihonji. 
Yes you are absolutely correct,i red about that as well. The lend and lease act was what doomed our empire. But its understandable, since we had fought/was just coming out from a long tiring war, which had worn out our resources/energy/wealth and destroyed our country. So it was untenable for us to hold on so much colonies/land abroad. We had to make some consessions to the U.S who emerged the strongest and untouched by the war. We would have still lost our empire/possesions/colonies anyway with time.The Lend and Lease Act with the U.S just precipitated it, and gave space for the U.S to emerge as a world superpower with global reach/bases

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## Aepsilons

C130 said:


> don't forget the Grumman Hellcat as well



I think the Corsair was the revolutionary fighter that would dominate naval aviation for the next 15 years. The Corsairs were used also extensively during the Korean War.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Nihonjin1051 said:


> LOL, hold your horses cowboy. It will be a gradual shift, not an acute one.



The ecosystem of our manufacturing base is now untouchable, and you can take a try to move it out.


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## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The answer to this is the 'Genius Visa' aka H1B



Agree, and many of them will be Chinese, Indians and Russians.

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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> You seem quite well versed in many subjects Nihonji.
> Yes you are absolutely correct,i red about that as well. The lend and lease act was what doomed our empire. But its understandable, since we had fought/was just coming out from a long tiring war, which had worn out our resources/energy/wealth and destroyed our country. So it was untenable for us to hold on so much colonies/land abroad. We had to make some consessions to the U.S who emerged the strongest and untouched by the war. We would have still lost our empire/possesions/colonies anyway with time.The Lend and Lease Act with the U.S just precipitated it, and gave space for the U.S to emerge as a world superpower with global reach/bases



The Americans are , indeed, strategic. Beyond a doubt. In defense of the British Empire tho, I will say that it executed its ability to fight the war and utilized all subjects throughout the Empire is rather impressive. Ive read military journals in the Battle of El Alemein in Africa in which British forces deployed Australians, Canadians, Sikh Rifles, Gurkha Rifles, Malays. It was if the entire Empire fought for its collective existence. 

*"For King and Empire..."*


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## C130

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I think the Corsair was the revolutionary fighter that would dominate naval aviation for the next 15 years. The Corsairs were sued also extensively during the Korean War.


Corsair might of been the better aircraft, but Hellcat pulled it's weight and more against Imperial Japan



> U.S. Navy and Marine F6F pilots flew 66,530 combat sorties and claimed 5,163 kills (56% of all U.S. Navy/Marine air victories of the war) at a recorded cost of 270 Hellcats in aerial combat (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1 based on claimed but not confirmed kills).[41] The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents with a claimed 13:1 kill ratio against the A6M Zero, 9.5:1 against the Nakajima Ki-84, and 3.7:1 against the Mitsubishi J2M during the last year of the war.[42]The F6F became the prime ace-maker aircraft in the American inventory, with 305 Hellcat aces. The U.S. successes were not only attributed to superior aircraft, but also from 1942 onwards, they faced increasingly inexperienced Japanese aviators as well as having the advantage of increasing numerical superiority.[N 6] In the ground attack role, Hellcats dropped 6,503 tons (5,899 tonnes) of bombs.[41]

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The ships have been paid for , and therefore must be sent to Russia

Russia does not even needs this they make Aircraft carriers !!!


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## Aepsilons

C130 said:


> Corsair might of been the better aircraft, but Hellcat pulled it's weight and more against Imperial Japan



Yes, the Hellcat did contribute to American naval aviation success, in fact they proved their worth during the Battle of Midway, and during the Mariana Islands' Great Turkey shoot. One of the reasons of its success was its heavy armor, as compared to the lightly armored A6M Zero, which sacrificed armor for agility, nimbleness and speed. I remember talking to one Imperial Air Force pilot who survived the war (he was a friend of my grandfather-- who served in the Imperial Navy) and he shared to me how he was in a dog fight with an American hell cat during the Battle of Guadalcanal -- as much as he fired on the plane, it would not go down. It took a while before he was able to take out the American aviator. America had the Hellcat and the Corsair, which allowed them to dominate the skies.

Its been a pleasure to discuss with you @C130 !

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## al-Hasani

Great decision by the French. As partially French I support this decision 100%.

Putin-controlled Russia is a rogue state. I see no serious intentions of them wanting trustworthy ties with Europe. They still think that their short-lived and failed USSR is intact and them being allowed to bully former USSR territories and their sphere of influence.

If Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Baltic states and other former Warsaw Pact countries were not part of the EU and NATO they would create problems for them too.

Russia creating trouble in the Arab world and supporting a mass-murderer in Al-Assad before groups like ISIS even appeared does not help my opinion of them either.

Anyway they will probably get delivered despite this news or France will return the Russian payment somehow. Despite ties between the West/EU and Russia being the worst since the Cold War.

La France suspend la livraison du premier Mistral à la Russie

@Gabriel92


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## C130

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The ships have been paid for , and therefore must be sent to Russia
> 
> *Russia does not even needs this they make Aircraft carriers !!*!



lol, r u serious


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## mike2000

C130 said:


> mehhhhhhhh
> can't wait til we move our factories out of China



Lool dont overeact bro. The west/U.S wont be moving factories out of China, not anytime soon. We still make billions from our business operation there. Moving out will only allow local chinese companies to dominate their own market and enjoy even more economic of scale due to their sheer size, which will give them enough revenue to invest in more R&D to improve their products and start competing globally. The problem for us with China is that its not Japan, nor the U.S.S.R. Its internal market alone is enough to make any of their companies sucessful and as big as their american counterpart if not more. So if anything, we should remain there for our own good.
The time to move out is long gone, since they have already learned/acquired the capabilities to produce almost all what they need. Anyway our companies wont be moving out as long as they make money there. This is globalization/capitalism. Capitalists/businessmen dont give a shit about politics/rivalry etc, they are just after the best ROI. If democracy/allies etc really matter that much for us then why arent we investing in the 'worlds largest democracy' India the way we do in say China and Vietnam which are all authocracies? Business is business and politics is politics.

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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> Lool dont overeact bro. The west/U.S wont be moving factories out of China, not anytime soon. We still make billions from our business operation there. Moving out will only allow local chinese companies to dominate their own market and enjoy even more economic of scale due to their sheer size, which will give them enough revenue to invest in more R&D to improve their products and start competing globally. The problem for us with China is that its not Japan, nor the U.S.S.R. Its internal market alone is enough to make any of their companies sucessful and as big as their american counterpart if not more. So if anything, we should remain there for our own good.
> The time to move out is long gone, since they have already learned/acquired the capabilities to produce almost all what they need. Anyway our companies wont be moving out as long as they make money there. This is globaklization/capitalism. Capitalists/businessmen dont give a shit about politics/rivalry etc, they are just after the best ROI. If democracy/allies etc really matter that much for us then why arent we investing in the 'worlds largest democracy' India the way we do in say China and Vietnam which are all authocracies? Business is business and politics is politics.



Excellent analysis, Michael. I am in agreement with this. Selective movement of some manufacturing arms can be moved to cheaper markets say in ASEAN (Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam), India, Bangladesh, Pakistan; but key high tech areas should remain in China. You know much about this -- i'm beginning to think you're a spy. ha ha ha ha! joke joke...


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## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 said:


> Lool dont overeact bro. The west/U.S wont be moving factories out of China, not anytime soon. We still make billions from our business operation there. Moving out will only allow local chinese companies to dominate their own market and enjoy even more economic of scale due to their sheer size, which will give them enough revenue to invest in more R&D to improve their products and start competing globally. The problem for us with China is that its not Japan, nor the U.S.S.R. Its internal market alone is enough to make any of their companies sucessful and as big as their american counterpart if not more. So if anything, we should remain there for our own good.
> The time to move out is long gone, since they have already learned/acquired the capabilities to produce almost all what they need. Anyway our companies wont be moving out as long as they make money there. This is globalization/capitalism. Capitalists/businessmen dont give a shit about politics/rivalry etc, they are just after the best ROI. If democracy/allies etc really matter that much for us then why arent we investing in the 'worlds largest democracy' India the way we do in say China and Vietnam which are all authocracies? Business is business and politics is politics.



But we are going to run the BRICS Bank with Russia, so you better to get ready with that.


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## nangyale

It appears that Francois Holland, aka "soft testicle" (nickname given to him by Martine Aubry, First Secretary of the Socialist Party of France), has outdone even Tony Blair as the US's most docile poodle in Europe. After resisting US pressure for a long time and being fined billions of dollars for doing so, he has suddenly decided to cave in and suspend the delivery of the French Mistrals to Russia. However, not will the US will not return to 9 billion dollars extorted out of Paribas, now the Russian can impose astronomical penalties on France for breach of contract. Double whammy for Hollande!
Now I suspect that this is a measure which will last exactly as long as the upcoming NATO summit and that as soon it is over the "circumstances for delivery" will magically become "right again". As for Russia - no worries. She will either get the ships or get a huge load of money. A win-win situation for sure

But that is hardly the point.
First, whether Russia really needs these French ships is an extremely controversial issue in Russia, especially in the military. I did not take a poll, but my guess is that most of the military don't want them and rather spend the money elsewhere. This was a Medvedev purchase which was far from having a unanimity behind it. Personally, I think that the Mistrals are very good ships, very versatile, and that Russia could use on in the Black Sea and one in the Far East. They also come at at time with the Russian shipbuilding industry is over-worked and does not have the capacity to fulfill all the orders of the Russian Navy. Finally, the Mistrals come with an advanced communication and command infrastructure which the Russian would like to get their hands one. But I have always had a weak spot for French weapon systems and nobody asked me my opinion anyway. Besides, there are cheaper way for Russian to get that kind of capabilities or systems.
I think that the real importance of the Mistral contact was to show Russia, France and the rest of the world that the two countries could work together, even on huge contracts, that France is a credibly supplier and that the Russian and French military industrial complexes can cooperate.
Now the French look like total whips and idiots.




That is really unfair. The French deserve a great deal of credit for doing everything just right, sining such a complex agreement is no small task, and for designing a superb ship. Now all this is compromised by Francois "soft testicle" Hollande who clearly has the vision, courage, intelligence and leadership qualities of a blue-green algae.

I bet you the ships will be delivered more or less on time. But a terrible blow has been dealt to one of values the French hold extremely dear: the independence of their country from all other big powers. If the British are more or less resigned to their role as janitor for Uncle Sam, the French will not accept this and I expect the hatred for the current regime to become even more virulent than it is today. I tend to agree with French economist Pierre Jovanovic when he predicts that "King Francois" (another of his nicknames) will never finish his term in office.
Pauvre, pauvre France...

The Saker


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## mike2000

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> But we are going to run the BRICS Bank with Russia, so you better to get ready with that.



lol Yes i know China is the main player in BRICS. Economically China it doesnt really need it that much(it already provides more funds to the developing world than the World Bank and IMF combined) but politically yes it does. If China wasnt in this grouping we wouldnt even be talking about this, it will be useless. Anyway our relations with Russia was rather very good before the Ukraine crisis, this crisis kind of came in handy since it woke us up from our passive military commitments/over reliance on the U.S. The west/U.S still dominates/controls the world politically,culturally, economically,technologically, financially etc. So Russia should be more careful and stop at its annexation of Crimea, trying to take Eastern Ukraine will be a step too far i think, more sanctions will follow which Russi cant afford in long term, though we will be affected as well, but not as them. Putin should stop arming his rebels and pulled back his troops he deployed there covertly, while the west should pressure Kiev government to negotiate with the rebels for a peaceful solution.

The BRICS bank wont change much, apart from showing solidarity between emerging countries. In addition, India wont allow you to be the obvious leader(they wont want to play second fiddle to you.). Any grouping without a leader is already doomed, since there will be infightings/no sense of direction/objectives when the need really arises. So its a non starter to us for now.


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## Hamartia Antidote

mike2000 said:


> You seem quite well versed in many subjects Nihonji.
> Yes you are absolutely correct,i red about that as well. The lend and lease act was what doomed our empire. But its understandable, since we had fought/was just coming out from a long tiring war, which had worn out our resources/energy/wealth and destroyed our country. So it was untenable for us to hold on so much colonies/land abroad. We had to make some consessions to the U.S who emerged the strongest and untouched by the war. We would have still lost our empire/possesions/colonies anyway with time.The Lend and Lease Act with the U.S just precipitated it, and gave space for the U.S to emerge as a world superpower with global reach/bases



Destroyers for Bases Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"
On September 2 1940, as the Battle of Britain intensified, United States Secretary of State Cordell Hull signaled agreement to the transfer of the warships to the Royal Navy. In exchange, the US was granted land in various British possessions for the establishment of naval or air bases, on ninety-nine-year rent-free leases, on:


Newfoundland (today part of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador)
Eastern side of the Bahamas
Southern coast of Jamaica
Western coast of St. Lucia
West coast of Trinidad (Gulf of Paria)
Antigua
British Guiana (present day Guyana) within fifty miles of Georgetown
The agreement also granted the US air and naval base rights in:


The Great Sound and Castle Harbour, Bermuda
South and eastern coasts of Newfoundland"
-----------------------------------------------------
Basically they had no choice and deals like this created the ability of the US to project Naval power and weaken British Naval dominance.

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## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 said:


> lol Yes i know China is the main player in BRICS. Economically China it doesnt really need it that much(it already provides more funds to the developing world than the World Bank and IMF combined) but politically yes it does. If China wasnt in this grouping we wouldnt even be talking about this, it will be useless. Anyway our relations with Russia was rather very good before the Ukraine crisis, this crisis kind of came in handy since it woke us up from our passive military commitments/over reliance on the U.S. The west/U.S still dominates/controls the world politically,culturally, economically,technologically, financially etc. So Russia should be more careful and stop at its annexation of Crimea, trying to take Eastern Ukraine will be a step too far i think, more sanctions will follow which Russi cant afford in long term, though we will be affected as well, but not as them. Putin should stop arming his rebels and pulled back his troops he deployed there covertly, while the west should pressure Kiev government to negotiate with the rebels for a peaceful solution.
> 
> *The BRICS bank wont change much, apart from showing solidarity between emerging countries. In addition, India wont allow you to be the obvious leader(they wont want to play second fiddle to you.).* Any grouping without a leader is already doomed, since there will be infightings/no sense of direction/objectives when the need really arises. So its a non starter to us for now.



So do you think that India is even willing to against the wish of Putin?

We will see after that.


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## mike2000

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So do you think that India is even willing to against the wish of Putin?
> 
> We will see after that.



Loool why not? just like it fought bitterly against BRICS bank headquarters in Shanghai(and had to be compensated with president of the bank. Lol), India will keep having divergent views/agenda/ego with China in BRICS. So expect more infights In these coming years.

India will do what it wish and wouldn't give a **** of what Putin wants/think. Since they have noticed Russia is leaning more towards China against the west, because of this they don't trust Russia anymore like before reason why they have recently started purchasing more weapons from the U. S. than Russia. 

They(and other Asian countries )will rather have the U. S/western country remain the hegemon/dominant power in Asia than China any day .That's a fact .

On another note, Agni V will be tested next coming years, dubbed 'THE CHINA KILLER '


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## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 said:


> Loool why not? just like it fought bitterly against BRICS bank headquarters in Shanghai(and had to be compensated with president of the bank. Lol), India will keep having divergent views/agenda/ego with China in BRICS. So expect more infights In these coming years.
> 
> India will do what it wish and wouldn't give a **** of what Putin wants/think. Since they have noticed Russia is leaning more towards China against the west, because of this they don't trust Russia anymore like before reason why they have recently started purchasing more weapons from the U. S. than Russia.
> 
> They will rather have the U. S remain the hegemon/dominant power in Asia than you any day .That's a fact .
> 
> On another note, Agni V will be tested next coming years, dubbed 'THE CHINA KILLER '



Putin himself always favors Shanghai as the HQ of the BRICS Bank, and we give Russia 50% of leadership/influence in the BRICS Bank.

Russia is running the BRICS Bank like their own toy just like we did.

Russia performs on the table, China performs under the table, different roles for the same purpose is to challenge the US hegemony.

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## Hakan

atatwolf said:


> Good move. These wespons would be used to invade another country if they sold it to Russia. They should consider selling this to Turkey for black sea to keep an eye on Russian behavior. Or to Japan in east Asia sea. I think Japan needs them more.





Nihonjin1051 said:


> We were planning to buy 3 Wasp class ships from the US, but these Mistrals also fit the role.
> 
> If true, then this is a blessing in disguise for both France and Japan.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that it could be a possibility if France sells 1 ship to Japan and 1 to Turkey. This would serve the interests of the wider NATO alliance.



The only bad thing is that the Mistral is smaller than the juan carlos and Turkey wouldn't get any tech transfer.



cabatli_53 said:


>





ozi2000 said:


> .
> .
> *Navantia Press Release:
> Navantia consigue el diseño del LHD que se construirá en Turquía - Ferrol - Diario de Ferrol*
> .
> .
> Spanish Company will have 800.000 man-hour share.
> 
> 
> *Total Contract Value *= 500 million dollar
> =
> *Navantia *= 140 million euro
> +
> *Sedef *= 300 million dollar
> 
> *Navantia's Responsibilities:*
> 
> 1- Design
> 2- ToT
> 3- Technical Consultation
> 4- 4x LCM- 1E. Landing Craft
> 5- Engine
> 6- Turbines
> 7- Integrated Platform Control System
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Navantia consigue el diseño del LHD que se construirá en Turquía - Ferrol - Diario de Ferrol
> 
> .

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## scholseys

The real question is how long will this set back the Russian Navy. Some Russian admiral said that if they had these during the Georgian war, it wouldnt take them 2 weeks.


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## Aepsilons

Kaan said:


> The only bad thing is that the Mistral is smaller than the juan carlos and Turkey wouldn't get any tech transfer.



The Juan Carlos Class , indeed, is an attractive ship at reasonably priced, too. How many is the Turkish Navy looking to acquire, @Kaan ?

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## Indischer

tonyget said:


> A cargo ship with same displacement would cost that much



Certainly not! Don't simply troll and pull stats out of thin air.

The World's largest container ships, the Triple-E class, which displace 165,000 tons(compared to the Mistral's 16,000 tons) and measure 400mtrs in length(compared to the Mistral's 200mtrs) still cost a fraction of the Mistral's price tag, at 190 million $.

Triple-E Class Container Ships - Ship Technology


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## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> It was much later in the war when the Americans introduced the Chance Vought F4U Corsair, that it changed the tide of naval aviation warfare.




F6F introduced in 1943 powered by 2,000 hp engine slaughtered A6M due to superior speed, armor, dive.

J-20 / PAK-FA which are large heavy fighters would slaughter F-3 which is a small light fighter due to superior speed, BVR.

Is F-3 Japan's first light fighter? F-3 in the same class as Tejas, JF-17, Gripen, F-5 / F-20. F-2 is a medium fighter in the class of J-10, F-16, Typhoon, Rafale, F-18.


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## Aepsilons

The problem with predictive calculations on fighters that don't have (yet) any combat history is that one can't make any statistical comparatives. Perhaps later on when said craft are ready , performance comparisons can be made, who knows, even combat capability as well. 

Till then, everything is moot. 


Regards,


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## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The problem with predictive calculations on fighters that don't have (yet) any combat history is that one can't make any statistical comparatives. Perhaps later on when said craft are ready , performance comparisons can be made, who knows, even combat capability as well.
> 
> Till then, everything is moot.
> 
> 
> Regards,




Big fighters have more radar range than little fighters because bigger radar increasing radar range outweighs larger airframe increasing RCS, much like F6F is bigger than A6M causing bigger engine increasing speed to outweigh slower speed due to more weight. This means bigger fighters have better BVR than little fighters.

Big fighters have more speed than little fighters because bigger engine increasing speed outweighs heavier airframe reducing speed, much like F6F is bigger than A6M causing bigger engine increasing speed to outweigh slower speed due to more weight. This means bigger fighters have better WVR than little fighters.


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## Aepsilons

The engine of the Mitsubishi F3, which will be based on that of the Mitsubishi MTDX-ShinShin , will be built by Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries , which will produce 2 x IHIXF5-1 turbofans with up to 22,000 lbs of thrust , and will be capable to super-cruise support (just like the F-22) to allow reaching supersonic flights without even reaching the afterburners. The Mitsubishi F3 Fighter is expected to be a very capable fighter and we are confident of its ability to execute its duties against adversaries. 

I am soundly confident of its ability to outperform the J-20 and the PAK-FA. 




Best of Luck to All. Le Cheim !


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## Hypersonicmissiles

Why can't Russia build their own LHD?

China is building 40,000 ton type 075 LHD so why can't Russia build such warships?
What nonsense.

The fact that Russia has to import such weapons from Europe should be considered an insult to the Russian military-inustrial complex.

Stop importing weapons and start building it yourself.


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## Penguin

C130 said:


> Wasp can carry more aircraft and of larger size than the Izumo?
> like the V-22 Osprey??
> 
> they must have their reasons if they want'em
> and by god I hope they do


The point is, if they can design and build 22DDH, they can design and build something along the lines of the Wasp. So, why import? Note JMSDF uses no imported ships at all (I think three locally built variants of the Italian Sparviero hydrofoil are the only examples).


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## The SC

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Why can't Russia build their own LHD?
> 
> China is building 40,000 ton type 075 LHD so why can't Russia build such warships?
> What nonsense.
> 
> The fact that Russia has to import such weapons from Europe should be considered an insult to the Russian military-inustrial complex.
> 
> Stop importing weapons and start building it yourself.


Not to mention spy bugs that are sophisticated and very hard to detect, can be left passive and remote actioned from time to time to get the J.Ved ships positions and guess the movement of the Russian fleet in case of conflict. France is independent in words only, most of the EU countries share technologies with France and are members of NATO !?
Medvedev was ready to sell Russian sovereignty and jeopardize its security to get closer to the West, remember his decision not to fulfill the S-300 contract with Iran, just to please the US and NATO., and the decision for these warships with France thinking really that France is independent from the US and NATO. It is not even independent to India who can influence it to what to sell or not to Pakistan, because of a big contract, meaning that France's independence is conditional to profit like a private corporation that can be bought and sold to the best buyer.or bidder.

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## Penguin

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Why can't Russia build their own LHD?
> 
> China is building 40,000 ton type 075 LHD so why can't Russia build such warships?
> What nonsense.
> 
> The fact that Russia has to import such weapons from Europe should be considered an insult to the Russian military-inustrial complex.
> 
> Stop importing weapons and start building it yourself.


Their yards have fallen behind due to lack of funding (including for naval projects). The Mistral project is one way of modernizing (hence 40% of the work at St Nazaire, France, by russians)


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## DejanSRB

ahhahaahah,it is shame to see an american @C130 how he dances around Chinese table and sing "Oh Russians are so inferior,they are only junior partner to great China,China will own half of Sibieria in next 24 hours....blah blah blah".

Mate you have inferior compex of Russians,all American post WW2 history is based on Russophobia,now you just want to use Chinese-Russian relations for your low satisfaction.

But it will not work.The only loser in Post Cold War world will be United "Please give me two dollars for breakfast" States of America.

I wish you was born in 30s in American economic boom,but you are unhappy guy,you will be a witness of American loss of superpower status,first your country will lose that holy grail of American history,then it will probably cease to exist even as great power.
Maybe not today,tommorow,next wednesday,but in 20-25 years definitely.

@ChineseTiger1986 

Mate you're the most modest guy on all PDF.You just litterary destroy that murican guy.

You shown the basic principles of Chinese nation,and why Chinese is so succesfull from economics to sports.

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## Hypersonicmissiles

The SC said:


> Not to mention spy bugs that are sophisticated and very hard to detect, can be left passive and remote actioned from time to time to get the JV ships and guess the movement of the Russian fleet in case of conflict. France in independent in words only, most of the EU countries share technologies with France and are members of NATO !?
> Medvedev was ready to sell Russian sovereignty to get closer to the West, remember his decision not to fulfill the S-300 contract with Iran, just to please the US and NATO.



Medvedev is a total fool. You can tell he is an incompetent goof just by looking at his face. That is why Putin chose him to be a transition president. Putin needed a weak guy like Medvedev to carry out the transition. If Putin chose a strong and smart character, they would not go along with Putin's plan.

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## atatwolf

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Juan Carlos Class , indeed, is an attractive ship at reasonably priced, too. How many is the Turkish Navy looking to acquire, @Kaan ?


One I think.

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## vostok

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Why can't Russia build their own LHD?
> 
> China is building 40,000 ton type 075 LHD so why can't Russia build such warships?
> What nonsense.
> 
> The fact that Russia has to import such weapons from Europe should be considered an insult to the Russian military-inustrial complex.
> 
> Stop importing weapons and start building it yourself.


Military shipyard, on which Soviet aircraft carriers were built, after 1991 went to Ukraine.

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## fallstuff

*Designed for Russia*

Two problems complicate a proposed alternative plan to sell the ships instead to Nato, or a friendly government.

*First, as half of the ships was built in Russia, Russia actually owns part of them already.*

*Second, the ships are designed for Arctic ports with ice-breaking reinforcement. There is no demand for that kind of ship outside of Russia.*

Among the local people watching the Russian sailors, feelings are mixed.

"They're not going to use the ship to fight a war against France," says one woman. "So what's the problem?"

But for Jean-Paul Regent, a retired ship-builder, "It's a terribly difficult decision. We need the jobs and the investment. Building ships is what we do here.

"But for Putin's Russia? The destination makes us feel very uneasy. We are all in two minds about it all."

BBC News - Huge Russian warship fascinates French in Saint-Nazaire


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## Hakan

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Juan Carlos Class , indeed, is an attractive ship at reasonably priced, too. How many is the Turkish Navy looking to acquire, @Kaan ?


Its in the name bro only "Juan".

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## Aepsilons

Kaan said:


> Its in the name bro only "Juan".



Ha Ha Ha!

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## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Mitsubishi F3 Fighter is expected to be a very capable fighter and we are confident of its ability to execute its duties against adversaries.
> I am soundly confident of its ability to outperform the J-20 and the PAK-FA.




F-3 is a small light fighter having size and thrust class of Tejas, JF-17, Gripen. It is not meant to compete with big boys like F-15, Su-35, J-20, PAK-FA, F-22.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Why can't Russia build their own LHD?
> 
> China is building 40,000 ton type 075 LHD so why can't Russia build such warships?
> What nonsense.
> 
> The fact that Russia has to import such weapons from Europe should be considered an insult to the Russian military-inustrial complex.
> 
> Stop importing weapons and start building it yourself.



Russia's surface vessel shipyard and all the related infrastructures were left in Ukraine after the dissolution of USSR.

Fortunately, the sub shipyard stayed in Russia, that's why Russia is still strong in sub.

Now Putin has to take back the shipyard in Ukraine in order to recover its AC building capability.

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## Audio

> Russia warship delivery conditional on Ukraine ceasefire and political settlement, says France’s Hollande



Breaking - France 24


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## ChineseTiger1986

DejanSRB said:


> ahhahaahah,it is shame to see an american @C130 how he dances around Chinese table and sing "Oh Russians are so inferior,they are only junior partner to great China,China will own half of Sibieria in next 24 hours....blah blah blah".
> 
> Mate you have inferior compex of Russians,all American post WW2 history is based on Russophobia,now you just want to use Chinese-Russian relations for your low satisfaction.
> 
> But it will not work.The only loser in Post Cold War world will be United "Please give me two dollars for breakfast" States of America.
> 
> I wish you was born in 30s in American economic boom,but you are unhappy guy,you will be a witness of American loss of superpower status,first your country will lose that holy grail of American history,then it will probably cease to exist even as great power.
> Maybe not today,tommorow,next wednesday,but in 20-25 years definitely.
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986
> 
> Mate you're the most modest guy on all PDF.You just litterary destroy that murican guy.
> 
> You shown the basic principles of Chinese nation,and why Chinese is so succesfull from economics to sports.



China treats Russia as an equal partner with great respect, maybe the other BRICS nations are junior partners, but Russia has to be granted with a leadership status along with China.

And we all know the US is now in panic, since now the conflict in Ukraine now turns into a proxy war between the US and Russia with China behind.

When Russia and China join in force, you can see that the western military threat and sanction have no effect to us at all.

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## Aepsilons

*UPDATE*


*



*

Russia's industry minister on Thursday said Moscow still expects France to provide it with two warships, despite a decision by Paris to hold off on delivery for now because of the Ukraine crisis.

Russian officials accused France of bowing to U.S. pressure by suspending delivery of the first of two Mistral helicopter carriers on Wednesday and questioned its reliability as a trade partner.

But Industry Minister Denis Manturov told Interfax news agency: "Russia assumes that the contract will be fulfilled according to the agreements."

French President Francois Hollande had for months resisted pressure from Washington and other allies to scrap the 1.2 billion euro ($1.58 billion) contract to deliver two Mistral helicopter carriers.

On the eve of a NATO summit, his office said on Wednesday France would hold off on delivery of the first warship. It accused Russia of actions in Ukraine which ran "against the foundations of security in Europe."

"Where are the times when Paris did not cave in to pressure from the United States, as, for example, over Iraq?" the Russian Foreign Ministry's deputy spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, wrote on Facebook.

Under President Jacques Chirac, France, like Russia, opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 that ended Saddam Hussein's rule.

Zakharova described France's decision over the warships as a disgrace and said it was just as well late French leader Charles de Gaulle had not witnessed it.

"France's reputation as a reliable partner that carries out its contractual obligations has been thrown into the furnace of American political ambitions," she wrote.

Moscow has sought to play down the impact of Hollande's decision, saying France would suffer a bigger economic blow than Russia.

"If the contract is unilaterally terminated, the money will definitely be returned to the Russian side and fines and penalties will be paid," Oleg Bochkaryov, deputy chairman of the government's Military-Industrial Commission, which helps oversee the defense industry, told Interfax.

He said France was likely to have problems finding a new buyer as the vessel was built according to Russia's requirements and with Russian equipment.

"If the contract is suspended, the French side's headache will be worse than ours," he said.
*
Russia Blames U.S. for Mistral Deal Gone Bad | Business | The Moscow Times
*

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## F-22Raptor

DejanSRB said:


> ahhahaahah,it is shame to see an american @C130 how he dances around Chinese table and sing "Oh Russians are so inferior,they are only junior partner to great China,China will own half of Sibieria in next 24 hours....blah blah blah".
> 
> Mate you have inferior compex of Russians,all American post WW2 history is based on Russophobia,now you just want to use Chinese-Russian relations for your low satisfaction.
> 
> But it will not work.The only loser in Post Cold War world will be United "Please give me two dollars for breakfast" States of America.
> 
> I wish you was born in 30s in American economic boom,but you are unhappy guy,you will be a witness of American loss of superpower status,first your country will lose that holy grail of American history,then it will probably cease to exist even as great power.
> Maybe not today,tommorow,next wednesday,but in 20-25 years definitely.
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986
> 
> Mate you're the most modest guy on all PDF.You just litterary destroy that murican guy.
> 
> You shown the basic principles of Chinese nation,and why Chinese is so succesfull from economics to sports.



The US has total comprehensive power throughout the world. Economically, politically, diplomatically, technologically, militarily, and culturally, no other country can match the combined power of the United States and there is nothing to indicate that will change. Your post is more wishful thinking than reality.


----------



## gau8av

F-22Raptor said:


> The US has total comprehensive power throughout the world. Economically, politically, diplomatically, technologically, militarily, and culturally, no other country can match the combined power of the United States and there is nothing to indicate that will change.


there's still a bunch of people outside the US who disagree with their foreign policy but embrace all that's good about it.

it's true that there has never been a greater collective expression of "freedom" than US society, they have an amazing constitution and there's lots of good about there, not everyone is an angry jihadi yo

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## C130

DejanSRB said:


> ahhahaahah,it is shame to see an american @C130 how he dances around Chinese table and sing "Oh Russians are so inferior,they are only junior partner to great China,China will own half of Sibieria in next 24 hours....blah blah blah".
> 
> Mate you have inferior compex of Russians,all American post WW2 history is based on Russophobia,now you just want to use Chinese-Russian relations for your low satisfaction.
> 
> But it will not work.The only loser in Post Cold War world will be United "Please give me two dollars for breakfast" States of America.
> 
> I wish you was born in 30s in American economic boom,but you are unhappy guy,you will be a witness of American loss of superpower status,first your country will lose that holy grail of American history,then it will probably cease to exist even as great power.
> Maybe not today,tommorow,next wednesday,but in 20-25 years definitely.
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986
> 
> Mate you're the most modest guy on all PDF.You just litterary destroy that murican guy.
> 
> You shown the basic principles of Chinese nation,and why Chinese is so succesfull from economics to sports.



inferior complex of Russia 
i thought the topic was France not giving Mistral to Russia?
what's this about china-russia relations
and losing super power status da hell


----------



## Hamartia Antidote

Nihonjin1051 said:


> "If the contract is unilaterally terminated, the money will definitely be returned to the Russian side and fines and penalties will be paid,"



So much for the theory of not paying a nickel until both ships are delivered.


----------



## F-22Raptor

C130 said:


> inferior complex of Russia
> i thought the topic was France not giving Mistral to Russia?
> what's this about china-russia relations
> and losing super power status da hell



Looks as though he's the one with the inferiority complex.


----------



## Superboy

F-22Raptor said:


> The US has total comprehensive power throughout the world. Economically, politically, diplomatically, technologically, militarily, and culturally, no other country can match the combined power of the United States and there is nothing to indicate that will change. Your post is more wishful thinking than reality.




Wishful thinking. Other than the English speaking countries like Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the US cannot depend on anyone else. Germany and Japan and Italy would stab the US in the back at any time and seek vengeance for WW2. Russia and China set up SCO in 2001 to target the US.


----------



## Genesis

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The engine of the Mitsubishi F3, which will be based on that of the Mitsubishi MTDX-ShinShin , will be built by Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries , which will produce 2 x IHIXF5-1 turbofans with up to 22,000 lbs of thrust , and will be capable to super-cruise support (just like the F-22) to allow reaching supersonic flights without even reaching the afterburners. The Mitsubishi F3 Fighter is expected to be a very capable fighter and we are confident of its ability to execute its duties against adversaries.
> 
> I am soundly confident of its ability to outperform the J-20 and the PAK-FA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best of Luck to All. Le Cheim !



so we are just making claims on fighters that doesn't even exist yet. J-20 exist. Anything that doesn't exist, doesn't exist. 

While we are behind on a lot of things, but most of them are for good reason, and the reason is we are just one country that only recently has got the money and people to go with the infrastructure for weapons development. 

It was only in 2012 that we crossed the 100 billion mark, and only 2009 or 10 that we shot pass Japan in total GDP. 

Now do you suppose as we become more and more developed and start pumping more and more cash into the military and other sectors, the difference will actually increase in your favor? 

How does that happen.


----------



## F-22Raptor

Superboy said:


> Wishful thinking. Other than the English speaking countries like Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the US cannot depend on anyone else. Germany and Japan and Italy would stab the US in the back at any time and seek vengeance for WW2. Russia and China set up SCO in 2001 to target the US.



Germany and Japan are both major allies of the United States and it's absurd to believe otherwise. The US has a network of alliances that Russia and China could only dream of.


----------



## C130

F-22Raptor said:


> Looks as though he's the one with the inferiority complex.



clearly. all you see is them bringing up GDP numbers and about the U.S and West collapse it's pretty funny 

China and Russia can be best of buds for all I care.
Russia doesn't deserve them Mistrals. Give'em to a loyal ally of justice and freedom.

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## Superboy

F22Raptor said:


> Germany and Japan are both major allies of the United States and it's absurd to believe otherwise.




Not deep down. They don't speak English plus they were brutalized and insulted by the US during WW2.



F-22Raptor said:


> The US has a network of alliances that Russia and China could only dream of.




SCO is currently the biggest alliance in the world at 30 million square kilometers the size of Africa.


----------



## Aepsilons

Genesis said:


> so we are just making claims on fighters that doesn't even exist yet. J-20 exist. Anything that doesn't exist, doesn't exist.
> 
> While we are behind on a lot of things, but most of them are for good reason, and the reason is we are just one country that only recently has got the money and people to go with the infrastructure for weapons development.
> 
> It was only in 2012 that we crossed the 100 billion mark, and only 2009 or 10 that we shot pass Japan in total GDP.
> 
> Now do you suppose as we become more and more developed and start pumping more and more cash into the military and other sectors, the difference will actually increase in your favor?
> 
> How does that happen.



We are discussing about technical aspects of the 5th generation fighters, we are not discussing about gdp of nations. Let's not digress.


----------



## F-22Raptor

C130 said:


> clearly. all you see is them bringing up GDP numbers and about the U.S and West collapse it's pretty funny
> 
> China and Russia can be best of buds for all I care.
> Russia doesn't deserve them Mistrals. Give'em to a loyal ally of justice and freedom.



It's the zero sum mentality that kills me. Let them delude themselves though, the fact remains we aren't going anywhere.


----------



## Superboy

J-20 and F-3 aren't even the same size class. J-20 is a big heavy fighter in the class of F-15. F-3 is a small light fighter in the class of F-5. I'm surprised Japan is going for a light fighter, something Japan has never built.


----------



## Genesis

Nihonjin1051 said:


> We are discussing about technical aspects of the 5th generation fighters, we are not discussing about gdp of nations. Let's not digress.


I'm not, that little side show was just to show, full speed ahead was only a couple of years ago.

But let's talk technical aspects of a 5th gen, does the Japanese version exist? The F-3 I mean. As to supercruise to my understanding that is an requirement for all 5th gen, not a particularly unique feature. 

Even the Euro Fighter has it. 

To say that the Japanese fighter would be better, I can accept that, but it doesn't yet exist, and without existing, anything can sound good on paper. If we are to go what's on paper, then the strongest nation would not be America, but probably North Korea, or another one of our distinguished friend.


----------



## Aepsilons

The F3 Fighter, which will be based on the design of the Mitsubishi MTDX-ShinShin, is about the same size as the F-35 and the J-31.


----------



## C130

Superboy said:


> SCO is currently the biggest alliance in the world at 30 million square kilometers the size of Africa.



size matters  and most of the countries in the SCO have border disputes between one another

I hope SCO is force of good though


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The F3 Fighter, which will be based on the design of the Mitsubishi MTDX-ShinShin, is about the same size as the F-35 and the J-31.




F-3 is about as big as JF-17 in size and engine power = 22,000 lb = JF-17 Block 3 and Tejas Mk 2's WS-13A / F414. F-35 is a medium sized fighter replacing F-16 which is F-2 sized.

F-3 and F-CK-1 are the same class.



C130 said:


> size matters  and most of the countries in the SCO have border disputes between one another
> 
> I hope SCO is force of good though




There is no border dispute between SCO countries. SCO is Asia version of NATO.


----------



## Aepsilons

To give a proper illustration, let me provide a visual of the recent photos of the Mitsubishi ATD-X Shinshin,


----------



## F-22Raptor

Superboy said:


> Not deep down. They don't speak English plus they were brutalized and insulted by the US during WW2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SCO is currently the biggest alliance in the world at 30 million square kilometers the size of Africa.



Germany and Japan both partnered up with the US post WW2 and became prosperous nations. They are both major allies and will be so well into the future.

Land mass means little in terms of alliances if countries have minimal geopolitical clout. Regardless, Russia and China are only business partners out of necessity.


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> To give a proper illustration, let me provide a visual of the recent photos of the Mitsubishi ATD-X Shinshin,




Wingspan seems too short?  Overall length is shorter than JF-17 which is 14.3 meters.



F22Raptor said:


> Germany and Japan both partnered up with the US post WW2 and became prosperous nations. They are both major allies and will be so well into the future.




Believe what you want, but don't expect them to back the US during WW3. In fact, they be enemies of America.


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> Wingspan seems too short?  Overall length is shorter than JF-17 which is 14.3 meters.



This is the ATD-X Shinshin, not the JF-17. 

In addition, the wingspan is about 29.85 feet (about 9.099 m), slightly smaller than the F-35 Lightning II , which has a wingspan of 35 feet (10.7 m).


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> This is the ATD-X Shinshin, not the JF-17.
> 
> In addition, the wingspan is about 29.85 feet (about 9.099 m), slightly smaller than the F-35 Lightning II , which has a wingspan of 35 feet (10.7 m).




Slightly? That's a big difference. Completely different size class. JF-17 has 9.45 meters of wingspan (including pylons which I assume F-3 will not have).


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> Slightly? That's a big difference. Completely different size class. JF-17 has 9.45 meters of wingspan (including pylons which I assume F-3 will not have).



There is no comparison because the ATD-X shinshin is a 5th generation aircraft and has , naturally, superior qualities over any 4th or 3rd generation fighters. There is emphasis on low probability intercept radar which is integrated into the fighter, the high performance airframe of this craft, as well as the advanced avionics and engine that will be installed in this craft by Ishikawajima Harima Heavy Industries, as well as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries.

If you want to discuss further, we can do so in the ATDX thread in the East Asia Section. Japan's stealth jet prototype 'to fly this year' | Page 10

We have digressed from the subject matter, so let's get back to the topic about the Mistrals. Thanks.


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> There is no comparison because the ATD-X shinshin is a 5th generation aircraft and has , naturally, superior qualities over any 4th or 3rd generation fighters. There is emphasis on low probability intercept radar which is integrated into the fighter, the high performance airframe of this craft, as well as the advanced avionics and engine that will be installed in this craft by Ishikawajima Harima Heavy Industries, as well as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries.
> 
> If you want to discuss further, we can do so in the ATDX thread in the East Asia Section. Japan's stealth jet prototype 'to fly this year' | Page 10
> 
> We have digressed from the subject matter, so let's get back to the topic about the Mistrals. Thanks.




F-3 will never fly because the US won't allow it. The US killed Canada's CF-105 Arrow. The US kills F-3.


----------



## Genesis

Nihonjin1051 said:


> We have digressed from the subject matter, so let's get back to the topic about the Mistrals. Thanks.



Yes, I ahve doubts about the Wasp rumor and especially this Mistral rumor, as that isn't even a rumor but a suggestion by some journalist. 

The doubt is simply Japan can build its own, it's no better or worse than the other two, if needed, I'm sure 10,000 tons can be added to existing Japanese class of warships.


But I will say this, THE KOREANS STOLE OUR DESIGN!!!! DAMN THEM, WE CALL DIBS!!!


----------



## Aepsilons

Genesis said:


> Yes, I ahve doubts about the Wasp rumor and especially this Mistral rumor, as that isn't even a rumor but a suggestion by some journalist.
> The doubt is simply Japan can build its own, it's no better or worse than the other two, if needed, I'm sure 10,000 tons can be added to existing Japanese class of warships.



At $600 million for 1 Mistral , that's exceedingly cheap for any AAS platform. Imagine the Russians were going to receive 2 Mistrals , fully armed, at a price of $1.5 billion. 

I think that the MoD can afford to purchase 2 AAS platforms for the same price the Russians were willing to pay. We'll see tho. One thing is clear, whoever gets these 2 mistrals is getting a deal. I hope we can avail of the opportunity.


----------



## Genesis

Nihonjin1051 said:


> At $600 million for 1 Mistral , that's exceedingly cheap for any AAS platform. Imagine the Russians were going to receive 2 Mistrals , fully armed, at a price of $1.5 billion.
> 
> I think that the MoD can afford to purchase 2 AAS platforms for the same price the Russians were willing to pay. We'll see tho. One thing is clear, whoever gets these 2 mistrals is getting a deal. I hope we can avail of the opportunity.


I'm saying you can build it yourself, why buy another two. It's not like Japanese manufacturers are known for delays. Just build two more, yours is bigger anyways, I think. 

As of now I think Russia has some weapon systems on there and to strip itout and put in yours or French ones, it be better to just build your own.

If anyone is buying these two, it's not us, cause we got no helicopters available. Yea, if the French can hold off for like 10 years after we start induct a heavy Chinook-copy copter and another 30 ton helicopter, we may think about.


----------



## Aepsilons

Genesis said:


> I'm saying you can build it yourself, why buy another two. It's not like Japanese manufacturers are known for delays. Just build two more, yours is bigger anyways, I think.
> 
> As of now I think Russia has some weapon systems on there and to strip itout and put in yours or French ones, it be better to just build your own.
> 
> If anyone is buying these two, it's not us, cause we got no helicopters available. Yea, if the French can hold off for like 10 years after we start induct a heavy Chinook-copy copter and another 30 ton helicopter, we may think about.



People's Liberation Army Navy has their own variant, which is actually large (displacement of 20,000 tonnes) -- its the Yuzhao Type 071. It is the PLAN's own variant of Helicopter Carrier. The aft contains the landing platform , but the bow seems similar to the Type 052 DDG of the People's Liberation Army Navy.


The Type 071,































Genesis said:


> I'm saying you can build it yourself, why buy another two. It's not like Japanese manufacturers are known for delays. Just build two more, yours is bigger anyways, I think.



We can, however, it is very pricy. 1 Hyuga Class (fully armed) is $1.2 billion. 1 Izumo Class (fully armed) is $1.5 billion. The JMSDF would save a lot of time and money if we were to acquire these Mistrals. In fact, we don't mind if they strip the Russian weapons and radar systems. That's fine, we can replace these with our own. We can avail of the hull.


----------



## Superboy

Type 071 is a landing dock, not a helicopter destroyer. Type 075 currently under construction is a helicopter destroyer, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Aepsilons

The Type 071 can still function as a helicopter carrier, and it completes the role as an AAS. Plus, the Type 071 is super cheap. Only $300 million per ship.


----------



## Genesis

Nihonjin1051 said:


> People's Liberation Army Navy has their own variant, which is actually large (displacement of 20,000 tonnes) -- its the Yuzhao Type 071. It is the PLAN's own variant of Helicopter Carrier. The aft contains the landing platform , but the bow seems similar to the Type 052 DDG of the People's Liberation Army Navy.
> 
> 
> The Type 071,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can, however, it is very pricy. 1 Hyuga Class (fully armed) is $1.2 billion. 1 Izumo Class (fully armed) is $1.5 billion. The JMSDF would save a lot of time and money if we were to acquire these Mistrals. In fact, we don't mind if they strip the Russian weapons and radar systems. That's fine, we can replace these with our own. We can avail of the hull.



First that's a ship for landing troop, like the San Antonio class, we are getting 3 more upgraded ones, and one of them is about to be launched. 

The Helicopter carrier is a different animal, like the name we need helicopters, right now we have small numbers of them, well relatively, to America.

The type 71 and 71a is good, but it needs support from our carriers, which as it happens also won't be finished until about 2020, at least the first 2, the others is hard to say. 

Helicopter carriers are more or less designed, but not built yet, considering the previous comment on not a lot of helicopters. Regardless of what people say it is not under construction. Got more realistic dreams right now, like advanced destroyers, subs, and frigates, to go with aircraft carriers, cause for whatever reason it's far easier for us to make a fighter than a helicopter.

In terms of helicopters we are going to rip off the Americans like never before, if we are still good with them by 2025, we'll look surprisingly similar in helicopters, and ships and pretty much everything. Oh and also Cujo, we got our own now. 



But in terms of Mistral, the cost is more or less the same if you build it yourself. I'm assuming if you build it yourself it's going to be closer to your own needs and would work better. I also think the Izumo is what 30,000 ton rather than 20.


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Type 071 can still function as a helicopter carrier, and it completes the role as an AAS. Plus, the Type 071 is super cheap. Only $300 million per ship.




Yeah. But Type 071 is old and obsolete. Type 075 replaces it.


----------



## Aepsilons

Genesis said:


> First that's a ship for landing troop, like the San Antonio class, we are getting 3 more upgraded ones, and one of them is about to be launched.
> 
> The Helicopter carrier is a different animal, like the name we need helicopters, right now we have small numbers of them, well relatively, to America.
> 
> The type 71 and 71a is good, but it needs support from our carriers, which as it happens also won't be finished until about 2020, at least the first 2, the others is hard to say.
> 
> Helicopter carriers are more or less designed, but not built yet, considering the previous comment on not a lot of helicopters. Regardless of what people say it is not under construction. Got more realistic dreams right now, like advanced destroyers, subs, and frigates, to go with aircraft carriers, cause for whatever reason it's far easier for us to make a fighter than a helicopter.
> 
> In terms of helicopters we are going to rip off the Americans like never before, if we are still good with them by 2025, we'll look surprisingly similar in helicopters, and ships and pretty much everything. Oh and also Cujo, we got our own now.
> 
> 
> 
> But in terms of Mistral, the cost is more or less the same if you build it yourself. I'm assuming if you build it yourself it's going to be closer to your own needs and would work better. I also think the Izumo is what 30,000 ton rather than 20.




Thank you for that information @Genesis . I really appreciate it. Do you happen to know the price of the Type 075 ?



Superboy said:


> Yeah. But Type 071 is old and obsolete. Type 075 replaces it.




Very impressive, i must say. Congratulations to the People's Liberation Army Navy in their decision to proceed with a Helicopter Carrier. Thanks for the pictures, too, @Superboy .


----------



## Superboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Thank you for that information @Genesis . I really appreciate it. Do you happen to know the price of the Type 075 ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very impressive, i must say. Congratulations to the People's Liberation Army Navy in their decision to proceed with a Helicopter Carrier. Thanks for the pictures, too, @Superboy .




Not sure but this is all the info available for now. Chinese Type 075 Class Amphibious Landing Helicopter Assault Ship LHA Under Construction | Chinese Military Review


----------



## Aepsilons

Superboy said:


> Not sure but this is all the info available for now. Chinese Type 075 Class Amphibious Landing Helicopter Assault Ship LHA Under Construction | Chinese Military Review



Appreciate it, I've already bookmarked it for future reference.


----------



## Genesis

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Thank you for that information @Genesis . I really appreciate it. Do you happen to know the price of the Type 075 ?



Nobody really knows the price of these things, but just know, our military equipments are no longer cheap, they are in fact quite expensive. I won't say as expensive as American ones, but it's not cheap.

The 001, Liaoning reportedly cost anywhere between 2 billion to 4.5 or even 5.




> Very impressive, i must say. Congratulations to the People's Liberation Army Navy in their decision to proceed with a Helicopter Carrier. Thanks for the pictures, too, @Superboy .



We haven't yet, it's talked about, but no start date. So no wars for China, but when 2020 comes about, watch out, I believe Xi wants a war to cement China's place in the world, and 2020 would be the first available time without losing too many men. 

Or he may just hold off and hand it off to the next round of leaders.




Superboy said:


> Not sure but this is all the info available for now. Chinese Type 075 Class Amphibious Landing Helicopter Assault Ship LHA Under Construction | Chinese Military Review


Yea, no, no plans to start yet. I also got info that says 120,000 ton super carrier is under construction. This is about as reliable.

It's a process, the Z-20 is already well on it's way to reality, only a matter of time for the other helicopters.


----------



## Superboy

Perchance, when Type 075 enters service in 2015 or so, a decommissioned Type 071 can be transferred to SCO ally Russia as a stop gap measure?

Type 071 is like a big modern Haruna.

Haruna-class destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Type 071 amphibious transport dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## C130

Superboy said:


> F-3 will never fly because the US won't allow it. The US killed Canada's CF-105 Arrow. The US kills F-3.



afraid it's true. we got Japan on a leash. they can't do anything without approval of the U.S.A

you kill me super boy.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Why is Russia not making these themselves ?

Have the russians decided Air craft carriers are sitting ducks for Moden Missles


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## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> afraid it's true. we got Japan on a leash. they can't do anything without approval of the U.S.A
> 
> you kill me super boy.



Well, all your so-called allies are just a group of poodles with a rope attached on their neck.


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## notgoodenough

F-22Raptor said:


> The US has total comprehensive power throughout the world. Economically, politically, diplomatically, technologically, militarily, and culturally, no other country can match the combined power of the United States and there is nothing to indicate that will change. Your post is more wishful thinking than reality.



All I read is ordinary imperial hubris. Jingoist nonsense, as your world, society and reality crumble all around you. How very sad. Or are you really that blind to believe your gibberish? That would be even sadder.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Superboy said:


> Perchance, when Type 075 enters service in 2015 or so, a decommissioned Type 071 can be transferred to SCO ally Russia as a stop gap measure?
> 
> Type 071 is like a big modern Haruna.
> 
> Haruna-class destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Type 071 amphibious transport dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Russia is more interested to cooperate the development of the nuclear supercarrier with us.

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## C130

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, all your so-called allies are just a group of poodles with a rope attached on their neck.



is that so.


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## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> is that so.



They fear you because you are much more powerful than them.

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## C130

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> They fear you because you are much more powerful than them.



well since China likes to imitate the U.S, you all are on your way of having your own little lackeys.


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## Superboy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Why is Russia not making these themselves ?
> 
> Have the russians decided Air craft carriers are sitting ducks for Moden Missles




Russia tried to improve relations with NATO. Now COLD WAR again.


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## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> well since China likes to imitate the U.S, you all are on your way of having your own little lackeys.



We won't, because we have different culture.

We spend to invest the infrastructure in Africa, have you seen the US done that before.


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## C130

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We won't, because we have different culture.
> 
> We spend to invest the infrastructure in Africa, have you seen the US done that before.



just another form of neo-colonism to some.
culture or not power is addicting especially when you are top dog.


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## ChineseTiger1986

C130 said:


> just another form of neo-colonism to some.
> culture or not power is addicting especially when you are top dog.



At least it is 100 times better than enslaving them and trading them as the slaves.

In their future memory, they will only remember how we are helping them to build up everything and to turn the rural areas into the urban cities.


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## Hamartia Antidote

C130 said:


> just another form of neo-colonism to some.
> culture or not power is addicting especially when you are top dog.


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## C130

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> At least it is 100 times better than enslaving them and trading them as the slaves.
> 
> In their future memory, they will only remember how we are helping them to build up everything and to turn the rural areas into the urban cities.



and here we go about slavery. did you know Africans have been enslaving other Africans for millennium??

there are other forms of slavery than the kind we did  

yeah I'm sure China is doing all of that out of the goodness of her heart.

not like Chinese illegals are in mass in Africa selling bootlegs of products and committing crime, but ehhhh whatever

Africa is always going to be toyed with whether it's the white man or another color of the rainbow.


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## F-22Raptor

notgoodenough said:


> All I read is ordinary imperial hubris. Jingoist nonsense, as your world, society and reality crumble all around you. How very sad. Or are you really that blind to believe your gibberish? That would be even sadder.



Jingoistic, chauvinistic, call it whatever you like...No other country offers the combined power of the United States, that's a fact. Truth hurts, doesn't it?


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## tonyget

C130 said:


> and here we go about slavery. did you know Africans have been enslaving other Africans for millennium??
> 
> there are other forms of slavery than the kind we did
> 
> yeah I'm sure China is doing all of that out of the goodness of her heart.
> 
> not like Chinese illegals are in mass in Africa selling bootlegs of products and committing crime, but ehhhh whatever
> 
> Africa is always going to be toyed with whether it's the white man or another color of the rainbow.




To be honest, African's fate isn't so bad compare to native americans


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## C130

tonyget said:


> To be honest, African's fate isn't so bad compare to native americans



they both got screwed.


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## notgoodenough

How could that ever be a fact silly boy ? You dont even know how to properly quantify that claim let alone qualify it. Please if youre going to spout your wet dreams. Do it on a different forum. The USA is a perception, a concept that is quickly fading into nothingness. Its a dying brand basically. Nothing more. If you want to believe usa is some omnipotent construct, then it can be, in your mind. But only in your mind.




F-22Raptor said:


> Jingoistic, chauvinistic, call it whatever you like...No other country offers the combined power of the United States, that's a fact. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

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## Beidou2020

F-22Raptor said:


> Jingoistic, chauvinistic, call it whatever you like...No other country offers the combined power of the United States, that's a fact. Truth hurts, doesn't it?



Remove the dollar as the reserve currency and the US will collapse faster than the Soviet Union. The entire power of the US depends on the dollar. Even slight decline in marketshare of the dollar will increase the decline of the US. The Ukraine crisis is all about protecting the dollar as the Yankee regime knows dollar hegemony is being challenged.

US power is grossly overstated by Yankee propaganda mouthpieces. China is by far the most important economic country to the world as seen in the last 6 years. 124 countries consider China their largest trading partner and many countries and global corporations depend on the Chinese market and Chinese growth.

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## F-22Raptor

notgoodenough said:


> How could that ever be a fact silly boy ? You dont even know how to properly quantify that claim let alone qualify it. Please if youre going to spout your wet dreams. Do it on a different forum. The USA is a perception, a concept that is quickly fading into nothingness. Its a dying brand basically. Nothing more. If you want to believe usa is some omnipotent construct, then it can be, in your mind. But only in your mind.



The US is widely regarded as the sole superpower of the world, and has been for over two decades. No other country has the geopolitical influence or comprehensive power of the United States. I have no need to qualify it, because it is a well understood fact. The US as a "dying brand" is not only asinine, but laughable. The US is still by far the country where foreigners would like to immigrate to. Referring to a Gallup poll in 2012, 150 million potential immigrants said they would like to immigrate to the US. The UK came in a distant second at 45 million. The US naturalizes nearly 700,000 citizens every year. Whether it is our tech companies(Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, IBM, Intel), social media (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram), or entertainment (Hollywood, TV shows, Netflix, Disney, music), the US brand is strong and flourishing. The rest of your post is just worthless dreck from an anti-american clown.


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## Audio

NormalandSimple said:


> The budding economic ties between Russia, Germany, France have been totally destroyed



Ya, not really. Look at the map below. 1.3 trillion $ of FDI (not all to Russia-but most) has some weight.



NormalandSimple said:


> Russia is now totally dependent on China - economy wise



Again, no.



NormalandSimple said:


> Germany/France/EU can now say good bye to EURO and are dependent on US for Energy



No, 3/3, doing good!



NormalandSimple said:


> Japan now has no hope of getting gas pipeline from Russia



Wouldn't know. So, won't comment.



NormalandSimple said:


> US has a reason and willing partners to host missile defence at Russia's door step



What has changed? This was true two years ago.



NormalandSimple said:


> All of the above ensures that US would lead and be the only super power for the next 100 years.



Doubtful. First among equals would perhaps be a more realistic position to debate from.



Peter C said:


>






> The U.S., the U.K. and France still lead the foray. The three countries combined held the biggest share of Africa investments in 2012—the latest available data—totaling $178.2 billion. The so-called Brics countries—Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa—collectivelyheld investments valued at $67.7 billion, of which $27.7 billion were Chinese.



Foreign Investment in Africa Seen at Record $80 Billion in 2014 - WSJ

Also, this map here, i assume there's a similar one for US FDI, i think it's good to know it, for perspective. Map is valid up to end of 2012, so those numbers are higher now.


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## F-22Raptor

Beidou2020 said:


> Remove the dollar as the reserve currency and the US will collapse faster than the Soviet Union. The entire power of the US depends on the dollar. Even slight decline in marketshare of the dollar will increase the decline of the US. The Ukraine crisis is all about protecting the dollar as the Yankee regime knows dollar hegemony is being challenged.
> 
> US power is grossly overstated by Yankee propaganda mouthpieces. China is by far the most important economic country to the world as seen in the last 6 years. 124 countries consider China their largest trading partner and many countries and global corporations depend on the Chinese market and Chinese growth.



People have predicted the decline of the dollar since the early 70's. Nearly 90% of daily trade in foreign exchange markets is done with the US dollar. I wouldn't hold my breath for a change in reserve currency anytime soon. While I applaud China for their economic growth, it has largely been based off heavy investment and cheap exports. That model of growth is quickly coming to an end. Can China successfully transition to a consumption based and thereby healthier economy? It's difficult to say, considering their rapid debt buildup, addiction to credit, and housing market downturn. The IMF warned in its annual report that China's growth could plummet to 3.5% by 2020 if reform is not hastened. This is on top of China's other issues such as demographics and its atrocious environment. Clearly, China's economy has significant issues to deal with.


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## Tsilihin

tonyget said:


> To be honest, African's fate isn't so bad compare to native americans



Actually he is not American but he loves François Hollande balls a lot .
He mention about balls in his older reply.


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## Aitreyan

France is sending a bad image for potential customers who doesn't want their supply to be influenced by US lobbying

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## gau8av

Aitreyan said:


> France is sending a bad image for potential customers who doesn't want their supply to be influenced by US lobbying


if it were up to me I'd threaten to cancel the Rafales and go for mig 35 instead  

**** NATO, support Russia against against western aggression

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## notgoodenough

Wow. Just wow. Ive never met someone whose head was so far up uncle sams asshole. Congratulations. Your inane babble was truly worthless. Now seriously. Your delusions of grandeur really have no place on this forum little boy but keep dreaming of an empire long ago wasted away. If it makes you sleep better at night.

Youre too stupid and vacuous to continue any further. Go back to remedial history economics geo politics etc.

Another ignorant nato troll ignored.......



F-22Raptor said:


> The US is widely regarded as the sole superpower of the world, and has been for over two decades. No other country has the geopolitical influence or comprehensive power of the United States. I have no need to qualify it, because it is a well understood fact. The US as a "dying brand" is not only asinine, but laughable. The US is still by far the country where foreigners would like to immigrate to. Referring to a Gallup poll in 2012, 150 million potential immigrants said they would like to immigrate to the US. The UK came in a distant second at 45 million. The US naturalizes nearly 700,000 citizens every year. Whether it is our tech companies(Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, IBM, Intel), social media (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram), or entertainment (Hollywood, TV shows, Netflix, Disney, music), the US brand is strong and flourishing. The rest of your post is just worthless dreck from an anti-american clown.

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## Beidou2020

F-22Raptor said:


> People have predicted the decline of the dollar since the early 70's. Nearly 90% of daily trade in foreign exchange markets is done with the US dollar. I wouldn't hold my breath for a change in reserve currency anytime soon. While I applaud China for their economic growth, it has largely been based off heavy investment and cheap exports. That model of growth is quickly coming to an end. Can China successfully transition to a consumption based and thereby healthier economy? It's difficult to say, considering their rapid debt buildup, addiction to credit, and housing market downturn. The IMF warned in its annual report that China's growth could plummet to 3.5% by 2020 if reform is not hastened. This is on top of China's other issues such as demographics and its atrocious environment. Clearly, China's economy has significant issues to deal with.



90% of foreign exchange isn't done in dollars you clown .
Foreign exchange has two currencies, so its divided by 200%, not 100%.
The world didn't have a need to move to alternative currencies until recently as the US has declined as an economic power in GDP and trade especially since 2008. US crashed in 2008 and it was only since then countries have decided to have other currencies. China didn't reform the RMB until the 2008 crash.

As economic power shifts, so does global financial power. Chinese RMB is also the 9th largest forex trading currency even without opening up. China is starting to do the necessary financial reforms to set the stage to destroy the dollar. Once China sets up the CIPS payment clearing system, and set up more direct trading between currencies, the RMB usage will rise dramatically as countries want to hold RMB to reduce trade and investment costs with China.

As other countries start doing more trade and investment in their own currencies and open up the foreign exchange market, dollar will lose marketshare. The entire US power depends on the dollar having a huge marketshare to absorb dollar liquidity to keep US inflation low, any gain in RMB and other currencies mean the US will lose the ability to print and have low inflation as it has less marketshare globally.

Economic growth is based on investment and trade. There is no such thing as consumption-based growth. Consumption is a result of investment and trade growth. Chinese exports are now moving to up the technological ladder and more Chinese private companies take up the share of manufacturing in China. Manufacturing in China is now serving the domestic market as the consumption in being done in China as a result of large investment.

Debt in China is used to grow the economy by building infrastructure and building factories that give value in the future, whereas in the US debt is used to consume depreciating consumer goods giving no future return. IMF have been calling for the collapse of China for 30 years and they have been wrong for 30 years.

Chinese demographic problems are being sorted with relaxing the 1 child policy and raising the retirement age to 70. Automation is also replacing labour in manufacturing as wages rise which increase consumption as the service sector expands which contributes more labour absorption per unit of GDP.

Your ignorance is painful and shameful to your fellow Americans.
smh

The US problems are what the Soviet Union had during the 1980's. The list is too long.



notgoodenough said:


> Wow. Just wow. Ive never met someone whose head was so far up uncle sams asshole. Congratulations. Your inane babble was truly worthless. Now seriously. Your delusions of grandeur really have no place on this forum little boy but keep dreaming of an empire long ago wasted away. If it makes you sleep better at night.
> 
> Youre too stupid and vacuous to continue any further. Go back to remedial history economics geo politics etc.
> 
> Another ignorant nato troll ignored.......



His ignorance is the very reason the US has so many problems and is in rapid decline.

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## My-Analogous

Superboy said:


> I don't think Britain ever had tech superiority over Americans, did they?



Can you please tell me who is the inventor of Jet engine, X Ray machines ? and list is going on and on


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## F-22Raptor

notgoodenough said:


> Wow. Just wow. Ive never met someone whose head was so far up uncle sams asshole. Congratulations. Your inane babble was truly worthless. Now seriously. Your delusions of grandeur really have no place on this forum little boy but keep dreaming of an empire long ago wasted away. If it makes you sleep better at night.
> 
> Youre too stupid and vacuous to continue any further. Go back to remedial history economics geo politics etc.
> 
> Another ignorant nato troll ignored.......



Is this really the best you could come up with? You cite how the US is a "dying brand" and I specifically stated with facts how that's not the case. Then you counter with petty insults that adds nothing significant to the debate. Whose the troll now? Your a bag of hot air, and ultimately a waste of my time.

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## F-22Raptor

Beidou2020 said:


> 90% of foreign exchange isn't done in dollars you clown .
> Foreign exchange has two currencies, so its divided by 200%, not 100%.
> The world didn't have a need to move to alternative currencies until recently as the US has declined as an economic power in GDP and trade especially since 2008. US crashed in 2008 and it was only since then countries have decided to have other currencies. China didn't reform the RMB until the 2008 crash.
> 
> As economic power shifts, so does global financial power. Chinese RMB is also the 9th largest forex trading currency even without opening up. China is starting to do the necessary financial reforms to set the stage to destroy the dollar. Once China sets up the CIPS payment clearing system, and set up more direct trading between currencies, the RMB usage will rise dramatically as countries want to hold RMB to reduce trade and investment costs with China.
> 
> As other countries start doing more trade and investment in their own currencies and open up the foreign exchange market, dollar will lose marketshare. The entire US power depends on the dollar having a huge marketshare to absorb dollar liquidity to keep US inflation low, any gain in RMB and other currencies mean the US will lose the ability to print and have low inflation as it has less marketshare globally.
> 
> Economic growth is based on investment and trade. There is no such thing as consumption-based growth. Consumption is a result of investment and trade growth. Chinese exports are now moving to up the technological ladder and more Chinese private companies take up the share of manufacturing in China. Manufacturing in China is now serving the domestic market as the consumption in being done in China as a result of large investment.
> 
> Debt in China is used to grow the economy by building infrastructure and building factories that give value in the future, whereas in the US debt is used to consume depreciating consumer goods giving no future return. IMF have been calling for the collapse of China for 30 years and they have been wrong for 30 years.
> 
> Chinese demographic problems are being sorted with relaxing the 1 child policy and raising the retirement age to 70. Automation is also replacing labour in manufacturing as wages rise which increase consumption as the service sector expands which contributes more labour absorption per unit of GDP.
> 
> Your ignorance is painful and shameful to your fellow Americans.
> smh
> 
> The US problems are what the Soviet Union had during the 1980's. The list is too long.
> 
> 
> 
> His ignorance is the very reason the US has so many problems and is in rapid decline.



The fact of the matter is that the US dollar is still the dominate currency of the world, and it's not really close. The RMB is not even in the picture. That's not going to change anytime soon. The current model of growth in China is rapidly coming to an end. Even CPC officials have openly admitted that multiple times. It's why we hear the term "reform" so often regarding the Chinese economy. China's growth continues to slow year by year. We're seeing cracks developing in the Chinese economy, which include the out of control shadow banking system, debt that is soaring, infrastructure and inventory overcapacity, endemic corruption, and housing market that continues to disappoint. China's upcoming demographic problems are significant. A huge aging population will be a great burden upon China's health and social programs. The CPC can attempt to manage it all they want, but you can't slow the aging process. With China's growth, the environment has been practically destroyed. China's own environment minister called it "embarrassing." A "middle income trap" is also a real concern that could blunt growth. The fact is that China has immense challenges of their own. I didn't even mention the fact that the CPC is an authoritarian regime who spends a huge amount of money and effort on propaganda and its "internal security", which we all know is a term for oppressing and controlling its people. China's government is a disgrace to freedom loving people around the world.

The only person who is shameful here is yourself. You've been called out here by Chinese members over the fact that your an American with German heritage. Your not Chinese and never will be. You've manged to rack up 18 negative ratings, and a multitude of bans. I know that you have multiple accounts here, at least 3 I know of. Your no better than the wu maos that troll the net. I'm shocked your still allowed to post here.

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## FNFAL

I always knew france had a different outlook from NATO in world affairs...afaik thats why they moved out of NATo under degaulle..dunno what happened that caused this teutonic shift ??


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## Beidou2020

F-22Raptor said:


> The fact of the matter is that the US dollar is still the dominate currency of the world, and it's not really close. The RMB is not even in the picture. That's not going to change anytime soon. The current model of growth in China is rapidly coming to an end. Even CPC officials have openly admitted that multiple times. It's why we hear the term "reform" so often regarding the Chinese economy. China's growth continues to slow year by year. We're seeing cracks developing in the Chinese economy, which include the out of control shadow banking system, debt that is soaring, infrastructure and inventory overcapacity, endemic corruption, and housing market that continues to disappoint. China's upcoming demographic problems are significant. A huge aging population will be a great burden upon China's health and social programs. The CPC can attempt to manage it all they want, but you can't slow the aging process. With China's growth, the environment has been practically destroyed. China's own environment minister called it "embarrassing." A "middle income trap" is also a real concern that could blunt growth. The fact is that China has immense challenges of their own. I didn't even mention the fact that the CPC is an authoritarian regime who spends a huge amount of money and effort on propaganda and its "internal security", which we all know is a term for oppressing and controlling its people. China's government is a disgrace to freedom loving people around the world.
> 
> The only person who is shameful here is yourself. You've been called out here by Chinese members over the fact that your an American with German heritage. Your not Chinese and never will be. You've manged to rack up 18 negative ratings, and a multitude of bans. I know that you have multiple accounts here, at least 3 I know of. Your no better than the wu maos that troll the net. I'm shocked your still allowed to post here.



The entire US economy is a giant ponzi scheme full of bubbles. The US has 3 massive debt-induced bubbles right now in the form of the reinflated housing bubble, the stock bubble and the truly dangerous bond bubble.

The US has had no actual growth whatsoever since the financial crash which is why the entire US economy still needs 0% interest rates and massive QE every year to prop up the ponzi scheme. You don't have 0% unless you got major structural problems in the economy similar to Japan. The fact that interest rates are 0% shows all you need to know about the true state of the US ponzi scheme.

The reason the US can't raise interest rates is because the US has too much debt and any increase in interest rates will push up bond yields and the funding of the Yankee regime to fund its genocide of children all over the world will be devastated. Corporate borrowing costs will rise rapidly which will crush the margins. Corporates have been borrowing money on the cheap to buyback shares to increase the earrings and boost stock prices and increase investor confidence. The entire fate of the US ponzi scheme depends on having 0% interest rates because if the stock, housing and bond bubbles burst, the collapse of the US will be so massive it will make the 2008 collapse look like a sunday school picnic.

The US labour force participation is at historic lows because the US economic foundation has been permanently destroyed. This is why nearly all the jobs created are low wage temporary jobs. This problem will get worse, not better.

The US is one of the fastest ageing societies which has caused a massive burden on the regime's finances and this process will get worse as more money will need to go towards taking care of the ageing population.The US regime knows it has no choice but to fund the welfare state to keep the black and latinos under control or you will see a continued rise in crime as mass unemployment leads to riots like in Ferguson and massive ethnic unrest between blacks, whites and latinos.

This is why the heinous and repulsive US regime want to use its propaganda machine to brainwash the population by creating foreign enemies in Russia, ISIS and China to distract from the staggering domestic problems such as staggering increase in crime, increase in teen pregnancies, heavily debt burdened society, increase in suicides, decrease in wages, loss of good paying jobs and a quite staggering decrease in the standard of living.

This is why the police in US cities are pretty much armed like military due to the anticipation of a Soviet style economic collapse once the bubble burst and the ponzi scheme unravels and the riots that will take place.

The US is like the Soviet Union in 1985. From the front you see nothing wrong to the brainwashed mind, but to the informed person, you can easily see the internal rot. Once the economy has collapsed, so doe the military as they run out of money to operate, maintain and upgrade the expensive weapons. No money = no military. Just ask the Soviet Union.

The US has a cancer and because the elites see their demise, the regime has decided to go rogue and turn into a fascist terror machine going on a genocidal killing spree like a psychopathic serial killer.

The end is nigh for the human butchering regime

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## notgoodenough

Excellent post brother. You know a thing or two about a thing or two. 




Beidou2020 said:


> The entire US economy is a giant ponzi scheme full of bubbles. The US has 3 massive debt-induced bubbles right now in the form of the reinflated housing bubble, the stock bubble and the truly dangerous bond bubble.
> 
> The US has had no actual growth whatsoever since the financial crash which is why the entire US economy still needs 0% interest rates and massive QE every year to prop up the ponzi scheme. You don't have 0% unless you got major structural problems in the economy similar to Japan. The fact that interest rates are 0% shows all you need to know about the true state of the US ponzi scheme.
> 
> The reason the US can't raise interest rates is because the US has too much debt and any increase in interest rates will push up bond yields and the funding of the Yankee regime to fund its genocide of children all over the world will be devastated. Corporate borrowing costs will rise rapidly which will crush the margins. Corporates have been borrowing money on the cheap to buyback shares to increase the earrings and boost stock prices and increase investor confidence. The entire fate of the US ponzi scheme depends on having 0% interest rates because if the stock, housing and bond bubbles burst, the collapse of the US will be so massive it will make the 2008 collapse look like a sunday school picnic.
> 
> The US labour force participation is at historic lows because the US economic foundation has been permanently destroyed. This is why nearly all the jobs created are low wage temporary jobs. This problem will get worse, not better.
> 
> The US is one of the fastest ageing societies which has caused a massive burden on the regime's finances and this process will get worse as more money will need to go towards taking care of the ageing population.The US regime knows it has no choice but to fund the welfare state to keep the black and latinos under control or you will see a continued rise in crime as mass unemployment leads to riots like in Ferguson and massive ethnic unrest between blacks, whites and latinos.
> 
> This is why the heinous and repulsive US regime want to use its propaganda machine to brainwash the population by creating foreign enemies in Russia, ISIS and China to distract from the staggering domestic problems such as staggering increase in crime, increase in teen pregnancies, heavily debt burdened society, increase in suicides, decrease in wages, loss of good paying jobs and a quite staggering decrease in the standard of living.
> 
> This is why the police in US cities are pretty much armed like military due to the anticipation of a Soviet style economic collapse once the bubble burst and the ponzi scheme unravels and the riots that will take place.
> 
> The US is like the Soviet Union in 1985. From the front you see nothing wrong to the brainwashed mind, but to the informed person, you can easily see the internal rot. Once the economy has collapsed, so doe the military as they run out of money to operate, maintain and upgrade the expensive weapons. No money = no military. Just ask the Soviet Union.
> 
> The US has a cancer and because the elites see their demise, the regime has decided to go rogue and turn into a fascist terror machine going on a genocidal killing spree like a psychopathic serial killer.
> 
> The end is nigh for the human butchering regime

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## flamer84

FNFAL said:


> I always knew france had a different outlook from NATO in world affairs...afaik thats why they moved out of NATo under degaulle..dunno what happened that caused this teutonic shift ??




A sovereign European nation has been invaded by the uncivilised eastern horde.


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## IndoUS

All chest thumping aside, this will be temprory, main reason being this is an enormous deal and if France backs down then it would look bad for their future sales of military equipment. Plus in the end the European defense industry isn't all high right now and scrapping this deal would be like shooting themselves in the foot.


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## gau8av

flamer84 said:


> A sovereign European nation has been invaded by the uncivilised eastern horde.


this is what a CIA sponsored neo nazi coup results in:


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## MarkusS

I think what many here don´t understand is simply that russia behavior is not european by any means. We are responsible for our own security. Russia attacks and opresses ukraine. Who knows if they dont attack Latvia or estonia or even poland next? Some morons here justify to ignore evrything with business. I arther sleep with an additional pullover in winter than to knee infront russian barbarism. 

Lets face reality. Putin guessed that NATO nations, EU and USA would not work together and he could pull his stunt easily. He miscalculated.

We chose to have no business with russia. Its evryones own decssion with who you don business. Nobody can force us to do business with him. I see this als chance. To be dependend on russian gas is an security risk and i see this a chance to erase this and correct it.

Russia is a security risk for Europe and i don´t see how we would profit with selling weapons to our enemy.

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## Aepsilons

MarkusS said:


> I think what many here don´t understand is simply that russia behavior is not european by any means. We are responsible for our own security. Russia attacks and opresses ukraine. Who knows if they dont attack Latvia or estonia or even poland next? Some morons here justify to ignore evrything with business. I arther sleep with an additional pullover in winter than to knee infront russian barbarism.
> 
> Lets face reality. Putin guessed that NATO nations, EU and USA would not work together and he could pull his stunt easily. He miscalculated.
> 
> We chose to have no business with russia. Its evryones own decssion with who you don business. Nobody can force us to do business with him. I see this als chance. To be dependend on russian gas is an security risk and i see this a chance to erase this and correct it.
> 
> Russia is a security risk for Europe and i don´t see how we would profit with selling weapons to our enemy.



Bonjourno Markus!

Do you know if any other European nation is looking to buy the Mistrals? You think the Italian Navy is looking to acquire it?



F-22Raptor said:


> The fact of the matter is that the US dollar is still the dominate currency of the world, and it's not really close. The RMB is not even in the picture. That's not going to change anytime soon. The current model of growth in China is rapidly coming to an end. Even CPC officials have openly admitted that multiple times. It's why we hear the term "reform" so often regarding the Chinese economy. China's growth continues to slow year by year. We're seeing cracks developing in the Chinese economy, which include the out of control shadow banking system, debt that is soaring, infrastructure and inventory overcapacity, endemic corruption, and housing market that continues to disappoint. China's upcoming demographic problems are significant. A huge aging population will be a great burden upon China's health and social programs. The CPC can attempt to manage it all they want, but you can't slow the aging process. With China's growth, the environment has been practically destroyed. China's own environment minister called it "embarrassing." A "middle income trap" is also a real concern that could blunt growth. The fact is that China has immense challenges of their own. I didn't even mention the fact that the CPC is an authoritarian regime who spends a huge amount of money and effort on propaganda and its "internal security", which we all know is a term for oppressing and controlling its people. China's government is a disgrace to freedom loving people around the world.
> 
> The only person who is shameful here is yourself. You've been called out here by Chinese members over the fact that your an American with German heritage. Your not Chinese and never will be. You've manged to rack up 18 negative ratings, and a multitude of bans. I know that you have multiple accounts here, at least 3 I know of. Your no better than the wu maos that troll the net. I'm shocked your still allowed to post here.



Well said, @F-22Raptor -- there are indeed many indices of want that are disconcerting to foreign investors. However, so long as China remains a cheap manufacturing source for investors, and so long as we enjoy profits, its only realistic to keep some production in China. It would also be wise for foreign corporations to consider relocating some production facilities from China to other cheaper , fairly safe environments-- ASEAN, South Asia. 

To quote the old adage, "Never put one's eggs in one basket."


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## notgoodenough

What are you babbling about?

So what im reading here is germany is happy being americas pet bitch and you repeat nato propaganda and make blanket statements with no proof or reference. Other than your nato narrative thats sounds more like a broken record.


Unfortunately marge. Youve been wrong in your comments predictions and pseudo retard analysis. So apologies if nobody caresabout the anti Russian garbage propaganda that comes out of your mouth.



MarkusS said:


> I think what many here don´t understand is simply that russia behavior is not european by any means. We are responsible for our own security. Russia attacks and opresses ukraine. Who knows if they dont attack Latvia or estonia or even poland next? Some morons here justify to ignore evrything with business. I arther sleep with an additional pullover in winter than to knee infront russian barbarism.
> 
> Lets face reality. Putin guessed that NATO nations, EU and USA would not work together and he could pull his stunt easily. He miscalculated.
> 
> We chose to have no business with russia. Its evryones own decssion with who you don business. Nobody can force us to do business with him. I see this als chance. To be dependend on russian gas is an security risk and i see this a chance to erase this and correct it.
> 
> Russia is a security risk for Europe and i don´t see how we would profit with selling weapons to our enemy.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MarkusS

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Bonjourno Markus!
> 
> Do you know if any other European nation is looking to buy the Mistrals? You think the Italian Navy is looking to acquire it?
> 
> 
> 
> Well said, @F-22Raptor -- there are indeed many indices of want that are disconcerting to foreign investors. However, so long as China remains a cheap manufacturing source for investors, and so long as we enjoy profits, its only realistic to keep some production in China. It would also be wise for foreign corporations to consider relocating some production facilities from China to other cheaper , fairly safe environments-- ASEAN, South Asia.
> 
> To quote the old adage, "Never put one's eggs in one basket."




No, italy has no interest in them. There are rumors that germany might think about buying one. Since we also plan to boost our navy.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Audio

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Bonjourno



Don't mean to nitpick, just a friendly tip, that's not for him. He is "_buongiorno_". What you wrote is for southern Switzerland.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Aepsilons

Audio said:


> Don't mean to nitpick, just a friendly tip, that's not for him. He is "_buongiorno_". What you wrote is for southern Switzerland.



LOL, ah ok buddy! 

Buongiorno! Mama Mia!


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## Gabriel92

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Bonjourno Markus!
> 
> Do you know if any other European nation is looking to buy the Mistrals? You think the Italian Navy is looking to acquire it?



I don't think any european nation will buy 'em,because of the budget cuts.


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