# Turkey's STM won Pakistan Agosta 90B modernization tender



## cabatli_53

STM has won the tender for the modernisation of pakistani agosta 90b submarines.
local shipyard will perform the modernisation of the subs.


http://www.milscint.com/tr/stm-pakistanda-denizalti-modernizasyon-ihalesi-kazandi/

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## Genghis khan1

*STM Wins Tender Submarine Modernization in Pakistan*
June 22, 2016



STM announced in June 22, Pakistan announced that the Ministry of Defence Production led the Agosta 90B class submarine won the tender for the modernization.

Pakistan Navy Agosta 90B class submarine found in the inventory of the international tender for the purpose of realization of half-life modernization, designing and producing the submarines competing against French DCNS shipyard STM won the tender. One certainty, both optioned a total of three submarine modernization of interests agreement between Pakistani Defence Production Ministry STM, Turkey, Pakistan Embassy and with the participation of Defense Industry Undersecretariat officials, on June 22, was signed in Rawalpindi city in Pakistan.

In a local shipyard modernization project, which will be held in Pakistan, the first submarine will be delivered after 45 months. The other submarine is scheduled to be modernized at 1-year.

*Translation may be off. Used Google translator.*

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## I M Sikander

Genghis khan1 said:


> *STM Wins Tender Submarine Modernization in Pakistan*
> June 22, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> STM announced in June 22, Pakistan announced that the Ministry of Defence Production led the Agosta 90B class submarine won the tender for the modernization.
> 
> Pakistan Navy Agosta 90B class submarine found in the inventory of the international tender for the purpose of realization of half-life modernization, designing and producing the submarines competing against French DCNS shipyard STM won the tender. One certainty, both optioned a total of three submarine modernization of interests agreement between Pakistani Defence Production Ministry STM, Turkey, Pakistan Embassy and with the participation of Defense Industry Undersecretariat officials, on June 22, was signed in Rawalpindi city in Pakistan.
> 
> In a local shipyard modernization project, which will be held in Pakistan, the first submarine will be delivered after 45 months. The other submarine is scheduled to be modernized at 1-year.
> 
> *Translation may be off. Used Google translator.*


The time duration is very long.
45 month for one submarine is too much time consuming.

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## bsruzm

"STM Breaks New Ground In Pakistan

STM has achieved major success as it was awarded the submarine modernization tender initiated by Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production against the company which has built the submarines. Thus, engineering exports will be initiated in our country for the first time in the field of submarines, a field that calls for advanced technology.

STM has marked major success in being awarded the international tender that was initiated for the half-life modernization of class “Agosta 90B” submarines in the inventory of Pakistani Naval Forces; *competing against the French company which designed and built the submarines themselves*. Covering a total of 3 submarine modernization orders; 1 of which is confirmed in addition to 2 orders on an optional basis; the contract was signed on 22 June 2016 in Rawalpindi/Pakistan; between Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production and STM; under the supervision of officials from the Embassy of Pakistan in Turkey and the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries.

As part of the project regarding the modernization of class “Agosta 90B” submarines; *STM entered a long, compelling competitive evaluation process with French DCNS Shipyard which undertook the designing and production operations for the aforementioned submarines. After a tendering process beginning on April 16, STM was found to be technically and commercially superior and was selected as the main contractor to sign the contract.* The modernization *operations will be performed at a local shipyard in Pakistan.* The first submarine will be delivered in 45 months. The other submarines are estimated to be modernized with 1 year in between the modernization of each."

STM Breaks New Ground In Pakistan

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## Spy Master

Ranasikander said:


> The time duration is very long.
> 45 month for one submarine is too much time consuming.


I think its 4-5 months,


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## Muhammad Omar

will it increase the life span? and what kind of upgrades these subs will undergo? how will it enhance the capabilities?

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## jermankill

what kind of modernization will be?

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## nomi007

PN also upgrade its agosta-70 subs

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## KediKesenFare3

Is STM a private company?


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## PDF

KediKesenFare said:


> Is STM a private company?


Turkish Armed Forces Foundation has indirectly 32 % of shares of STM. 66 % of shares of STM belong to state institutions and organizations.

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## Quwa

jermankill said:


> what kind of modernization will be?


Most likely electronics and sensors, though STM could potentially help with structural refreshment, but I don't know to what extent.

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## PakShaheen79

Has it anyting to do with the earlier PN request for Turkish Milgem corvette? STM also run that program, i think.


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## PakShaheen79

STM Naval projects page. https://www.stm.com.tr/en/deniz.html


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## Sulman Badshah

Here is Turkish type 209 modernisation program 


The modernization project comprising renewal of Electronic Support, Attack and Search Periscopes and Inertial Navigation Systems has been carried out by STM as the main contractor and applied on TCG DOĞANAY and TCG DOLUNAY submarines.

The contracts have been signed among the STM-SSM, STM-ASELSAN, STM-Zeiss and STM-Raytheon on 2011 and the projects will go for 4.5 years. 

The project will be realized by the support, labor force and experience of Turkish Navy Gölcük Naval Shipyard where has kept extensive knowledge for more than 35 years.
Within this project, STM will conduct;


Integration and installation system-system and system-platform activities,
Integrated Logistics Support,
To provide technical support and services.
This project will inherently bring new opportunities to Turkey for international submarine modernization projects.

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## RAMPAGE

Congratulation to both countries!

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## Manidabest

next should be tf-100 ada class & a129 copters and then altay tanks modfiy according to our specifications then finally tf2000

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## Shah Xaib

Good news .what's the progress of chinese 8 subs?

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## Djinn

Good to see Pakistani forging strong relations with Turkey. Hopefully we will consolidate our economic relations too. Pakistan should facilitate Turkey's involvement in CPEC.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Manidabest said:


> next should be tf-100 ada class & a129 copters and then altay tanks modfiy according to our specifications then finally tf2000


There's no final. It'll continue inshaAllah..



Djinn said:


> Good to see Pakistani forging strong relations with Turkey. Hopefully we will consolidate our economic relations too. Pakistan should facilitate Turkey's involvement in CPEC.


Amin!!

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## Manidabest

inshallah... also 5th generation fighter that will b produced by turkey

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## 90ArsalanLeo

Shah Xaib said:


> Good news .what's the progress of chinese 8 subs?



I dont think that is happening anytime soon


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## shah1398

cabatli_53 said:


> STM has won the tender for the modernisation of pakistani agosta 90b submarines.



Sigh of relief as Turkey is one of the most trusted brotherly country whose products and offers come without any fear of sanctions or stepping back (for which Frenches are famous). Not to forget the recent strides Turkey has made in field of Naval warfare.
Long Live Pak-Turk Friendship.
Yaşasın Pak -Türk Dostluk.

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## maximuswarrior

Djinn said:


> Good to see Pakistani forging strong relations with Turkey. Hopefully we will consolidate our economic relations too. Pakistan should facilitate Turkey's involvement in CPEC.



Excellent post. Turkish brothers need to be invited and added to the CPEC project. They have vast experience in construction work. In fact, Turkish engineering and architect is something to marvel.

As for the refurbishment of the subs, just awesome news. The Turkish defence industry has quantum leaped under the guidance and wise leadership of Erdogan.

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## Muhammad Omar

Shah Xaib said:


> Good news .what's the progress of chinese 8 subs?



First sub to come after 2018 i guess



Manidabest said:


> next should be tf-100 ada class & a129 copters and then altay tanks modfiy according to our specifications then finally tf2000



Hisar Missile and Altay

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## jamal18

Can't we do _anything _by ourselves?

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## FunkyGen

jamal18 said:


> Can't we do _anything _by ourselves?


Exactly what i was thinking but hey that would be blasphemy against our Turk brothers... (i do consider Turks our brother but we're a screwed country who doesn't feel shame on the fact that we have to rely on others...)

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## Quwa

STM was contracted to help implement the upgrades, the work will still be done in Pakistan. Moreover, we still need to import the subsystems we'll be swapping into the Agosta 90Bs anyways. We don't produce CMS, ESM, new generation sonars, etc. I'm not sure if Havalsan and Aselsan will necessarily win those contracts, it could still be Thales, Raytheon, etc, but with STM we at least have an experienced vendor to help with integration (without paying up the rectum out the sinus).

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## Oguzhan

maximuswarrior said:


> Excellent post. Turkish brothers need to be invited and added to the CPEC project. They have vast experience in construction work. In fact, Turkish engineering and architect is something to marvel.
> 
> As for the refurbishment of the subs, just awesome news. The Turkish defence industry has quantum leaped under the guidance and wise leadership of Erdogan.



Wise leadership of Erdogan lol.

Despide of our aerial or land veichel programs,our naval program has a different way.
Our naval program works by coordination of military engineers and private shipyards.This projects started at 90s.Engineers sent for masters etc. and we started to take results after 2000s.
Our land and aerial programs mostly works with order-prototype-change the order-reprototype-serial production order.


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## jamal18

FunkyGen said:


> Exactly what i was thinking but hey that would be blasphemy against our Turk brothers... (i do consider Turks our brother but we're a screwed country who doesn't feel shame on the fact that we have to rely on others...)



Years of ToT, building this and that. Investment in defense industry. And we can't build an egg cup by ourselves.

Turkey was way behind us in this sector. And now they are ahead of us.

Same as Korea, Japan, and Taiwan etc. So no change there, then.

A country in permanent _relative _decline.

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## Kompromat

What kinda upgrades are we looking at? @cabatli_53


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## salarsikander

jamal18 said:


> Years of ToT, building this and that. Investment in defense industry. And we can't build an egg cup by ourselves.
> 
> Turkey was way behind us in this sector. And now they are ahead of us.
> 
> Same as Korea, Japan, and Taiwan etc. So no change there, then.
> 
> A country in permanent _relative _decline.


So when are you coming back to Pakistan with your internationally acquired hi technskils ?

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## war&peace

Manidabest said:


> inshallah... also 5th generation fighter that will b produced by turkey


kuch khud bhi kar lo


jamal18 said:


> Can't we do _anything _by ourselves?


Apparently it seems we can't and that has to do with the incompetent leadership. One should ask what the hell was Agosta-90B deal with TOT, where did that TOT go...Did all those engineers die or left for better opportunities? We will never learn from one master to another....pathetic chronic dependence....
I am totally in favour of good relations with Turkey China and other friendly/brotherly nations based on mutual benefits through team-work i.e.(1) joint venture (2) ToT and joint-production. We need to develop systems ourselves and this depends on the leadership, if they won't let the institutions to develop and always look to foreign help for everything shows they have no trust in their abilities and always the money of this poor nation will be channeled out and few bigs will ofcourse fill the coffers.

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## jamal18

I think you have answered the question.

The assumption that 'international' skills are better than 'local' skills.

A deep inferiority complex and lack of self-confidence.



war&peace said:


> kuch khud bhi kar lo
> 
> Apparently it seems we can't and that has to do with the incompetent leadership. One should ask what the hell was Agosta-90B deal with TOT, where did that TOT go...Did all those engineers die or left for better opportunities? We will never learn from one master to another....pathetic chronic dependence....
> I am totally in favour of good relations with Turkey China and other friendly/brotherly nations based on mutual benefits through team-work i.e.(1) joint venture (2) ToT and joint-production. We need to develop systems ourselves and this depends on the leadership, if they won't let the institutions to develop and always look to foreign help for everything shows they have no trust in their abilities and always the money of this poor nation will be channeled out and few bigs will ofcourse fill the coffers.



There seems to be a lack of the right psyche. Happy to play second fiddle to others.

The Koreans had a motto 'Korea can do'. The idea was that Koreans can do anything. A basic rural society built Tankers, cars computers and just about anything. And they didn't need 'international' skills; or for that matter the English language.
And they started with a lot less than us.

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## Quwa

Learning requires exposure, and let's be honest here, the Pakistani defence industry hasn't gotten a whole lot of it, especially in the shipbuilding and land vehicles areas.

Whether it be by contracting an external vendor to help guide a local one (e.g. in this case where STM will help KSEW), sending Pakistani students to overseas universities for STEM education, picking up consultants with valuable insights and skils, you're going to need to talk to others in order to improve.

Granted, this deal with STM isn't going to flip around KSEW, for that we will need a much more robust and comprehensive policy of indigenization that cuts across acquisitions, education, R&D funding, etc.

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## war&peace

jamal18 said:


> I think you have answered the question.
> 
> The assumption that 'international' skills are better than 'local' skills.
> 
> A deep inferiority complex and lack of self-confidence.
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be a lack of the right psyche. Happy to play second fiddle to others.
> 
> The Koreans had a motto 'Korea can do'. The idea was that Koreans can do anything. A basic rural society built Tankers, cars computers and just about anything. And they didn't need 'international' skills; or for that matter the English language.
> And they started with a lot less than us.


If there was right leadership and as you said psyche, we should have started, preferrably in parallel to the development of Agosta 90-B or at least immediately after the completion of the project, developing human resource for the future projects. We had got an excellent opportunity to learn from the ToT in Agosta project, a team of skilled designers, engineers and technicians had been developed so we needed to utilise them and we had more than sufficient time to develop our own submarines from the scratch indigenuously. The upgradation project should have been a much easier task. Why are we looking for Chinese or any other options......I mean I can't fathom the inferiority complex hardwired in the minds of our military and civilian leadership since the colonial times. Don't these pathetic brainless bald heads think that all other nations the share the same planet, resources and brains. All we need is to let our people develop skills, today they will make something basic but tomorrow they will something world class.

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## Djinn

Quwa said:


> Learning requires exposure, and let's be honest here, the Pakistani defence industry hasn't gotten a whole lot of it, especially in the shipbuilding and land vehicles areas.
> 
> Whether it be by contracting an external vendor to help guide a local one (e.g. in this case where STM will help KSEW), sending Pakistani students to overseas universities for STEM education, picking up consultants with valuable insights and skils, you're going to need to talk to others in order to improve.
> 
> Granted, this deal with STM isn't going to flip around KSEW, for that we will need a much more robust and comprehensive policy of indigenization that cuts across acquisitions, education, R&D funding, etc.


Quwa i am looking forward to reading some analysis, insight and future prospects of Pakistan's collaboration with STM beyond the modernization of Agosta's, i hope you are considering or already have something in the pipeline?


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## jamal18

war&peace said:


> If there was right leadership and as you said psyche, we should have started, preferrably in parallel to the development of Agosta 90-B or at least immediately after the completion of the project, developing human resource for the future projects. We had got an excellent opportunity to learn from the ToT in Agosta project, a team of skilled designers, engineers and technicians had been developed so we needed to utilise them and we had more than sufficient time to develop our own submarines from the scratch indigenuously. The upgradation project should have been a much easier task. Why are we looking for Chinese or any other options......I mean I can't fathom the inferiority complex hardwired in the minds of our military and civilian leadership since the colonial times. Don't these pathetic brainless bald heads think that all other nations the share the same planet, resources and brains. All we need is to let our people develop skills, today they will make something basic but tomorrow they will something world class.



I agree word for word.

As I said much earlier, we should just build a submarine (for example) _entirely _by ourselves. Would this be the best submarine in the world? No. 

But we would gain so much experience and self-confidence that the next one will.


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## war&peace

jamal18 said:


> I agree word for word.
> 
> As I said much earlier, we should just build a submarine (for example) _entirely _by ourselves. Would this be the best submarine in the world? No.
> 
> But we would gain so much experience and self-confidence that the next one will.


Bro to tell you something, Pakistan has been developing small submarines called midgets totoally indigenuously. So that experience combined with ToT in Agosta-90B, we should have developed a world class submarine. And when I say indigenuous, I do not mean that we have to develop each and every part ourselves, the main design and system should be ours and then we reach out others for help where we need to come up with an excellent product. But why did we not institutionalised the experience we acquired, we should have developed a university level research institution in maritime technology, used the team and also invited foreign faculty to visit and deliver lectures...and they could be from Turkey, China, USA, South Korea, UK. Japan, etc

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## monitor

Great news. Can they offer same offer for the future Chinese sub?

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## Imtiaz_Sarwar

Could someone tell the forum how much this is going to cost Pakistan ?


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## ziaulislam

war&peace said:


> kuch khud bhi kar lo
> 
> Apparently it seems we can't and that has to do with the incompetent leadership. One should ask what the hell was Agosta-90B deal with TOT, where did that TOT go...Did all those engineers die or left for better opportunities? We will never learn from one master to another....pathetic chronic dependence....
> I am totally in favour of good relations with Turkey China and other friendly/brotherly nations based on mutual benefits through team-work i.e.(1) joint venture (2) ToT and joint-production. We need to develop systems ourselves and this depends on the leadership, if they won't let the institutions to develop and always look to foreign help for everything shows they have no trust in their abilities and always the money of this poor nation will be channeled out and few bigs will ofcourse fill the coffers.


you need continuing investment ..if you don t invest you cannot go forward...so key is to have enough money to continue to invest..i.e good economy

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## war&peace

ziaulislam said:


> you need continuing investment ..if you don t invest you cannot go forward...so key is to have enough money to continue to invest..i.e good economy


Yes..we always had money but we don't know how and where to spend. Furthermore, we do not stop corrupt people from robbing the national exchequer and both civilian and military leaderships have been partners in that in the past. Though I think the current COAS is honest person, however the same cannot be said about others.


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## Quwa

Djinn said:


> Quwa i am looking forward to reading some analysis, insight and future prospects of Pakistan's collaboration with STM beyond the modernization of Agosta's, i hope you are considering or already have something in the pipeline?


Haven't focused much on STM in particular, but I did discuss the MILGEM and how Pakistan could adopt it for its needs. Should the PN select the MILGEM and (especially) MILGEM-G, it would only be natural that we work closely with STM in order to outfit the platform for our requirements. 

http://quwa.org/?s=MILGEM

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## Djinn

Quwa said:


> Haven't focused much on STM in particular, but I did discuss the MILGEM and how Pakistan could adopt it for its needs. Should the PN select the MILGEM and (especially) MILGEM-G, it would only be natural that we work closely with STM in order to outfit the platform for our requirements.
> 
> http://quwa.org/?s=MILGEM


I was interested in exploring if there possibly could be any chance of STM's involvement with Pakistan's newly ordered Chinese subs......Any technology or system they could offer which Pakistan may be looking to integrate with the Chinese subs?


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## Viking 63

45 monthS!!!! are they building a bloody AIRCRAFT CARRIER????

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## Khafee

Quwa said:


> Most likely electronics and sensors, though STM could potentially help with structural refreshment, but I don't know to what extent.


1) Torpedo tubes size to be increased.

2) Overhaul or replacement of MESMA with another AIP system.

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## salarsikander

jamal18 said:


> I think you have answered the question.
> 
> The assumption that 'international' skills are better than 'local' skills.
> 
> A deep inferiority complex and lack of self-confidence.
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be a lack of the right psyche. Happy to play second fiddle to others.
> 
> The Koreans had a motto 'Korea can do'. The idea was that Koreans can do anything. A basic rural society built Tankers, cars computers and just about anything. And they didn't need 'international' skills; or for that matter the English language.
> And they started with a lot less than us.


Lol the way people ignore brain drain phenomena in search of better opportunities and later on blame the country.
Where is your part as an individual, i wonder



war&peace said:


> If there was right leadership and as you said psyche, we should have started, preferrably in parallel to the development of Agosta 90-B or at least immediately after the completion of the project, developing human resource for the future projects. We had got an excellent opportunity to learn from the ToT in Agosta project, a team of skilled designers, engineers and technicians had been developed so we needed to utilise them and we had more than sufficient time to develop our own submarines from the scratch indigenuously. The upgradation project should have been a much easier task. Why are we looking for Chinese or any other options......I mean I can't fathom the inferiority complex hardwired in the minds of our military and civilian leadership since the colonial times. Don't these pathetic brainless bald heads think that all other nations the share the same planet, resources and brains. All we need is to let our people develop skills, today they will make something basic but tomorrow they will something world class.


How much is spent on human capital development in Pakistan ?
How many of our engineers have left the country in search of better opportunities ?
Yes, its the sheer lack of confidence and inferiority complex that forces us to migrated to west. I have personally seen doctors, professionals leaving the country, rather than serving the country where they learnt it from. The statement you made is not plan white and black

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## war&peace

salarsikander said:


> Lol the way people ignore brain drain phenomena in search of better opportunities and later on blame the country.
> Where is your part as an individual, i wonder
> 
> 
> How much is spent on human capital development in Pakistan ?
> How many of our engineers have left the country in search of better opportunities ?
> Yes, its the sheer lack of confidence and inferiority complex that forces us to migrated to west. I have personally seen doctors, professionals leaving the country, rather than serving the country where they learnt it from. The statement you made is not plan white and black


Well it will open up a whole new subject and which deserves a separate thread to discuss it....Did you ever wonder why they leave the country? and if you look at our neighbouring enemy...a lot of them returned, after India made certain changes in 1980s, to serve their country with all their experience and wealth, invested heavily in India. Also a tale of two scientists should tell you a few reasons... Abdul Kalam and Abdul Qadeer, the former raised and educated in India, served his country, developed the nuclear program and was rewarded as the head of the Hindu majority state while the latter did the same for his country with a major difference he left Europe and his lucrative job to serve his country and he was insulted, humiliated and disgraced on national TV, made a scape goat. And do we have any policy similar to "make in India" of course not, we will buy everything from Europe right? As long as the poor farmer is toiling in the scorching heat and overseas Pakistanis sending billions of dollars every year. I hope answered the question.


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## salarsikander

war&peace said:


> Well it will open up a whole new subject and which deserves a separate thread to discuss it....Did you ever wonder why they leave the country? and if you look at our neighbouring enemy...a lot of them returned, after India made certain changes in 1980s, to serve their country with all their experience and wealth, invested heavily in India. Also a tale of two scientists should tell you a few reasons... Abdul Kalam and Abdul Qadeer, the former raised and educated in India, served his country, developed the nuclear program and was rewarded as the head of the Hindu majority state while the latter did the same for his country with a major difference he left Europe and his lucrative job to serve his country and he was insulted, humiliated and disgraced on national TV, made a scape goat. And do we have any policy similar to "make in India" of course not, we will buy everything from Europe right? As long as the poor farmer is toiling in the scorching heat and overseas Pakistanis sending billions of dollars every year. I hope answered the question.


Then if we keep on pointing fingers who will bring the difference ? you have presented the argument. But as an individual where your role lies ?


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## war&peace

salarsikander said:


> Then if we keep on pointing fingers who will bring the difference ? you have presented the argument. But as an individual where your role lies ?


The answer is in my comment if you care to read sir!!


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## salarsikander

war&peace said:


> The answer is in my comment if you care to read sir!!


So your sendinh of Billion from US hardly any proven since most of remittance is sourced from middle east i have been part of that system too before moving to pakistan permanently, is that helping local shipping industry ? if sending money is your part then you have no right to criticise further. Since, you have confined your role to sending money only, what I am talking about is the brains and the skills ? Can you replace the skills with dollars you have sent ? if it were the case then we would see arabs with their stashed oil money on a buying spree of skills. So you see my dear friend sometimes it just takes more than sending money ( though I am not completely dismissing the remittance) But merely emphasizing on the skills development part


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## war&peace

salarsikander said:


> So your sendinh of Billion from US hardly any proven since most of remittance is sourced from middle east i have been part of that system too before moving to pakistan permanently, is that helping local shipping industry ? if sending money is your part then you have no right to criticise further. Since, you have confined your role to sending money only, what I am talking about is the brains and the skills ? Can you replace the skills with dollars you have sent ? if it were the case then we would see arabs with their stashed oil money on a buying spree of skills. So you see my dear friend sometimes it just takes more than sending money ( though I am not completely dismissing the remittance) But merely emphasizing on the skills development part


Provide a few basic things and make a good policy, a lot of overseas Pakistanis wish to return to Pakistan, middle east is a different thing because, as per my info, none gets a permanent residence or citizenship there...so sooner or later people have to return. However when projects like this are outsourced to foreign countries, what an engineer can do in his individual capacity. He has knowledge and skills but not the money...that has to come from somewhere. An engineer or a scientist cannot do anything until and unless there was right policies from the govt...when the psyche is outsource everything to foreigners...what can an engineer do...Lets be pragmatic, along with the skills...he has a belly to fill and rather a few bellies to fill...do you know how many engineers have left recently because their jobs got slashed...where should they go when the investors are fleeing the country. You launch a few major shipbuilding projects in Pakistan, advertise for jobs internationally and select people on merit, a lot of overseas Pakistanis will come running back to home...A ship is not a small thing that an individual can build alone. Policies are important.

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## salarsikander

war&peace said:


> Provide a few basic things and make a good policy, a lot of overseas Pakistanis wish to return to Pakistan, middle east is a different thing because, as per my info, none gets a permanent residence or citizenship there...so sooner or later people have to return. However when projects like this are outsourced to foreign countries, what an engineer can do in his individual capacity. He has knowledge and skills but not the money...that has to come from somewhere. An engineer or a scientist cannot do anything until and unless there was right policies from the govt...when the psyche is outsource everything to foreigners...what can an engineer do...Lets be pragmatic, along with the skills...he has a belly to fill and rather a few bellies to fill...do you know how many engineers have left recently because their jobs got slashed...where should they go when the investors are fleeing the country. You launch a few major shipbuilding projects in Pakistan, advertise for jobs internationally and select people on merit, a lot of overseas Pakistanis will come running back to home...A ship is not a small thing that an individual can build alone. Policies are important.


My dear sir again the blame game. If the policies arent right. the loser are on top are not doing it right. so does that mean we completely abandon it ? If you have ( godforbid) a trouble in your family, what do you do ? runaway and blame the ancestors for making failed policies or you seek to redress them through your own personal capacity. your country si like your family


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## SherDil

Finally some good news from PN

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## war&peace

salarsikander said:


> My dear sir again the blame game. If the policies arent right. the loser are on top are not doing it right. so does that mean we completely abandon it ? If you have ( godforbid) a trouble in your family, what do you do ? runaway and blame the ancestors for making failed policies or you seek to redress them through your own personal capacity. your country si like your family


The people who have the power to rectify things are busy in saluting the corrupt and minding their own "professional" career, they damn care about the country. so first get the house in order then ask the overseas to return. We don't have even the right to vote. A country is not like a family at least not like our country because in a family you always have somenone who listens to you..if that last person is gone, you have to leave the family...a painful fact.

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## The SC

I think Pakistan is doing great, every major procurement has a high percentage made in Pakistan, otherwise called TOT..It is a sign that "Pakistan also can do"

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## Zarvan

What upgrades are we talking about here ? And does those upgrades include weapons ?


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## cabatli_53

The share of STM on U-214 TN program.

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## AKINCI

Some possible subparts

1.http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/cap...cs-and-sonar-systems/kulac-echosounder-system




2.http://www.havelsan.com.tr/ENG/Main/urun/998/sonar-integrated-submarine-command-and-control-seda




3.http://www.havelsan.com.tr/ENG/Main/urun/999/torpedo-firing-control-systems-toraks™
4.http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/cap...re-system-for-submarine-platforms-ares-2sc-ns
5.http://www.aselsan.com.tr/tr-tr/basin-odasi/haberler/Sayfalar/20150313DAKATeslimat.aspx


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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> 1) Torpedo tubes size to be increased.
> 
> 2) Overhaul or replacement of MESMA with another AIP system.


We already have 533mm tubes sir, what bigger tubes would we want? I am not sure it will be about that.
It is most probably going to be more of a general overhaul of engine and subsystems, perhaps adding some noise reduction features and some electronic upgrades (combat system upgrades etc).
As far as i am aware sonar was not a problem so i am not sure if we will be looking to change that (may go for a new one just to upgrade the sub however)
Changing AIP will be a huge task and the project costs will shoot up. Better spend a few more $$ and go for new subs. However overhauling of the MESMA is a possibility. There have been a few issues as well so perhaps a detailed maintenance and up gradation operation of AIP will address that,

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## Blue Marlin

bsruzm said:


> "STM Breaks New Ground In Pakistan
> 
> STM has achieved major success as it was awarded the submarine modernization tender initiated by Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production against the company which has built the submarines. Thus, engineering exports will be initiated in our country for the first time in the field of submarines, a field that calls for advanced technology.
> 
> STM has marked major success in being awarded the international tender that was initiated for the half-life modernization of class “Agosta 90B” submarines in the inventory of Pakistani Naval Forces; *competing against the French company which designed and built the submarines themselves*. Covering a total of 3 submarine modernization orders; 1 of which is confirmed in addition to 2 orders on an optional basis; the contract was signed on 22 June 2016 in Rawalpindi/Pakistan; between Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production and STM; under the supervision of officials from the Embassy of Pakistan in Turkey and the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries.
> 
> As part of the project regarding the modernization of class “Agosta 90B” submarines; *STM entered a long, compelling competitive evaluation process with French DCNS Shipyard which undertook the designing and production operations for the aforementioned submarines. After a tendering process beginning on April 16, STM was found to be technically and commercially superior and was selected as the main contractor to sign the contract.* The modernization *operations will be performed at a local shipyard in Pakistan.* The first submarine will be delivered in 45 months. The other submarines are estimated to be modernized with 1 year in between the modernization of each."
> 
> STM Breaks New Ground In Pakistan


i find it hard to believe that stm is technically superior than dcns. i would however understand if it was cheaper and greater independancy as i would suspects the turks would give source codes for their equipment which would be used on futher subs which are being procured from china which would give the subs the abiliy to have the same c&c systems. they wont touch the mesma aip as they have no experiance. though dcns could provide upgrades to ksew who have built 2 of these subs which result in the aips could be similar to that on the scorpenes


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## PaklovesTurkiye

monitor said:


> Great news. Can they offer same offer for the future Chinese sub?



Future Chinese Subs may also be upgraded so that they can talk Agosta-90b subs....

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## ZAC1

when our S-20 are coming...


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## cabatli_53

Turkey's STM beats French DCN in submarine tender which made our days in brothers' tender. It seems that Turkey and Pakistan is planning to proceed same way in many sector. 

At present, Turkish industry is busy with applying very similar advanced technologies to own submarine projects under the leadership of STM. Pakistan also joined into this Turkish tech submarine club.

The submarines that will use similar technologies.

-6 U214TN
-4 U209-1400 Preveze MLU 
-3 Pakistani AGOSTA Class 
+
-Milden domestic Turkish submarine project


The Agosta upgrade deal may contains :

- HAVELSAN SEDA Submarine Command Control System 

- HAVELSAN TORAKS Torpedo FCS System 

- HAVELSAN Submarine Data Distribution System (DBDS) 

- ASELSAN Intercept and Mine Avoiding Sonar 

- ASELSAN KULAC Echosounder sonar/electronic units

- ASELSAN ARES-200N ESM/ELINT System 

- ASELSAN LPI radar

- ASELSAN LPI sonar

- ASELSAN MATES Mine detection sonar

- ASELSAN DAKA Torpedo Countermeasure system (softkill) 

- Aselsan TORK anti-torpedo torpedo hard-kill system integration to DAKA TCMS.

- MILSOFT Link11/LINK-16 Proccessing System 

- Carl Zeiss Periscope with ASELSAN IR Cameras 

- ASELSAN Communication Suite 

- Golcuk Shipyard Submarine Battery Sets 

- TUBITAK Submarine Battery Control & Managment System 

- ROKETSAN Akya torpedo and sub-Atmaca ship to ship missile launching capability for future !

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## salarsikander

war&peace said:


> The people who have the power to rectify things are busy in saluting the corrupt and minding their own "professional" career, they damn care about the country. so first get the house in order then ask the overseas to return. We don't have even the right to vote. A country is not like a family at least not like our country because in a family you always have somenone who listens to you..if that last person is gone, you have to leave the family...a painful fact.


Very tragic I thought us lots obrseas had different opinion but oh well no one is willing to take responsiblity. Just the typical blame game


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## war&peace

salarsikander said:


> Very tragic I thought us lots obrseas had different opinion but oh well no one is willing to take responsiblity. Just the typical blame game


Let's agree to disagree.


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## salarsikander

war&peace said:


> Let's agree to disagree.


And keep the country deprived of our valuable skills


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## SQ8

Reminds me of the early 90's when the sub first came in, there was a development contract for its simulator.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Future Chinese Subs may also be upgraded so that they can talk Agosta-90b subs....


Future new subs do not require upgrade because these systems can be procured and installed from the start.

This also opens up the possibility that Pakistan may at some stage join the Turkish Submarine program in the future.

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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


> PN also upgrade its agosta-70 subs


 did or will ?


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## FunkyGen

jamal18 said:


> Years of ToT, building this and that. Investment in defense industry. And we can't build an egg cup by ourselves.
> 
> Turkey was way behind us in this sector. And now they are ahead of us.
> 
> Same as Korea, Japan, and Taiwan etc. So no change there, then.
> 
> A country in permanent _relative _decline.


It's not that we can't build rather the fact that we rejoice somebody doing it for us... sad state of affairs...


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## Quwa

cabatli_53 said:


> Turkey's STM beats French DCN in submarine tender which made our days in brothers' tender. It seems that Turkey and Pakistan is planning to proceed same way in many sector.
> 
> At present, Turkish industry is busy with applying very similar advanced technologies to own submarine projects under the leadership of STM. Pakistan also joined into this Turkish tech submarine club.
> 
> The submarines that will use similar technologies.
> 
> -6 U214TN
> -4 U209-1400 Preveze MLU
> -3 Pakistani AGOSTA Class
> +
> -Milden domestic Turkish submarine project
> 
> 
> The Agosta upgrade deal may contains :
> 
> - HAVELSAN SEDA Submarine Command Control System
> 
> - HAVELSAN TORAKS Torpedo FCS System
> 
> - HAVELSAN Submarine Data Distribution System (DBDS)
> 
> - ASELSAN Intercept and Mine Avoiding Sonar
> 
> - ASELSAN KULAC Echosounder sonar/electronic units
> 
> - ASELSAN ARES-200N ESM/ELINT System
> 
> - ASELSAN LPI radar
> 
> - ASELSAN LPI sonar
> 
> - ASELSAN MATES Mine detection sonar
> 
> - ASELSAN DAKA Torpedo Countermeasure system (softkill)
> 
> - Aselsan TORK anti-torpedo torpedo hard-kill system integration to DAKA TCMS.
> 
> - MILSOFT Link11/LINK-16 Proccessing System
> 
> - Carl Zeiss Periscope with ASELSAN IR Cameras
> 
> - ASELSAN Communication Suite
> 
> - Golcuk Shipyard Submarine Battery Sets
> 
> - TUBITAK Submarine Battery Control & Managment System
> 
> - ROKETSAN Akya torpedo and sub-Atmaca ship to ship missile launching capability for future !


I am very excited for the MILDEN submarine program.

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## cabatli_53

Turkey-Pakistan Naval Cooperation History !

-MRTP-16 exported to Pakistan
-MRTP-33 exported to Pakistan
-Genesis CMS applied for Pakistani Perry
-STAMP stabilized guns are selected by Pakistan.
-Milgem is checked by Pakistani officials and seriously considered by Pakistan in 2010's but nothing has been finalized yet.
-STM fleet tanker is selected by Pakistan. The ship is being built in Karachi.
-STM is selected by Pakistan to upgrade Agosta submarines in Pakistan.


It seems that Pakistan is seriously following almost all Naval projects Turkey generates and actively checking them When they are matured. I think Old coperations light the ways for future coperations as well. We have much more advanced and strategic naval projects in our future and I seriously believe that Pakistan and Turkey will step the similar ways on Naval sector.

-Fast Assault Boat Project (60knot speed, 8 SSM, Main gun, 3D radar)
-Istanbul Class Frigate (Milgem-G)
-TF-2000 class frigate/destroyer
-Milden submarine project
-LST Bayraktar ships
-Anatolia Light Aircraft Carrier (LHD) - under construction (Juan Carlos licence)


Naval Missile Sector !
Temren Missile (Mizrak-D) -2017 
Atmaca anti-ship Missile - 2016 
National Cruise Missile (Gezgin) (~1000km) 
National SAM integration (Hisar family)-(2017) 
Akya integration (533mm heavy torpedo) (2017)

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## Quwa

cabatli_53 said:


> Turkey-Pakistan Naval Cooperation History !
> 
> -MRTP-16 exported to Pakistan
> -MRTP-33 exported to Pakistan
> -Genesis CMS applied for Pakistani Perry
> -STAMP stabilized guns are selected by Pakistan.
> -Milgem is checked by Pakistani officials and seriously considered by Pakistan in 2010's but nothing has been finalized yet.
> -STM fleet tanker is selected by Pakistan. The ship is being built in Karachi.
> -STM is selected by Pakistan to upgrade Agosta submarines in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> It seems that Pakistan is seriously following almost all Naval projects Turkey generates and actively checking them When they are matured. I think Old coperations light the ways for future coperations as well. We have much more advanced and strategic naval projects in our future and I seriously believe that Pakistan and Turkey will step the similar ways on Naval sector.
> 
> -Fast Assault Boat Project (60knot speed, 8 SSM, Main gun, 3D radar)
> -Istanbul Class Frigate (Milgem-G)
> -TF-2000 class frigate/destroyer
> -Milden submarine project
> -LST Bayraktar ships
> -Anatolia Light Aircraft Carrier (LHD) - under construction (Juan Carlos licence)
> 
> 
> Naval Missile Sector !
> Temren Missile (Mizrak-D) -2017
> Atmaca anti-ship Missile - 2016
> National Cruise Missile (Gezgin) (~1000km)
> National SAM integration (Hisar family)-(2017)
> Akya integration (533mm heavy torpedo) (2017)


Regarding the MILGEM/Ada-class, Pakistan requested a $400m loan from Turkey to help finance a deal for 4 ships. 

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/milli-savunma-bakani-isik-pakistan-da-kocaeli-yerelhaber-1406967/

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## Super Falcon

How can they upgrade French tech with their tech


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## damm1t

Super Falcon said:


> How can they upgrade French tech with their tech



Nope mate, we will not upgrade the French tech, instead will inject the new Turkish tech in it.

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## Hexciter

Super Falcon said:


> How can they upgrade French tech with their tech



Simple! Remove French tech and then put Turkish tech instead!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

STM is a world class organization with capabilities at par with DCNS or better. The work will be done in Pakistan. The whole process is scheduled to take 12 months for each submarine.

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## 21 Dec 2012

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> STM is a world class organization with capabilities at par with DCNS or better.


Just a tad bit too far

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## Super Falcon

Hexciter said:


> Simple! Remove French tech and then put Turkish tech instead!


You are saying remove Bentley steering and put mehrbani steering in place how it can integrated with rest of system

Turkey have German tech we have French sub it a bit different


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## Tank131

They will replace french electronics and subsystems with turkish ones. Just like u can put aftermarket parts into a car (includong electronics) this is conceptually the same, just on a much larger and grander/more complex scale. 

While STM may not be more advaced than dcns they are likely close enough. Plus if u look at recent tenders from france they have been underwhelming to say the least (previous sub tender was reworked scorpene). DCNS doesnt necessarily offer Pakistan it's best. Also its more expensive usually and PN will run the risk of France not returning vessels or stopping work at a critical time of need.

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## eagleeye

It is the same as the perry frigate modernisation. We replaced the critical subsystems like battle managment system command controll system all consoles and other systems . After than you can integrate what you want.

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## Bilal Khan 777

The French have lost their way in Pakistan, and DCNS and Thales are on the wrong path. Pakistan is looking towards Turkey as a better option than the Chinese, in absence of transitional European suppliers.

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## Quwa

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The French have lost their way in Pakistan, and DCNS and Thales are on the wrong path. Pakistan is looking towards Turkey as a better option than the Chinese, in absence of transitional European suppliers.


You noted earlier that the Navy is a secretive organization, so I imagine that this is merely the tip of what is possible in terms of Turkey, submarine technology (or subsystems), etc.

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## Oguzhan

Turkey is trying to construct its own submarine.Design,construction etc.As we all know it is full of sub systems which we have some of them.

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## Savas-Usta

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> STM is a world class organization with capabilities at par with DCNS or better. The work will be done in Pakistan. The whole process is scheduled to take 12 months for each submarine.



It's probably good to note that STM has a secondary organization that is tasked to reverse engineering complex platforms. Since Turkey is looking to develop it's own indigenous Submarines with next decade getting as much knowledge on such platforms could very well be crucial to reaching next stage in self reliance, Pakistan playing a big role behind the scenes I'm sure of it.

@cabatli_53 Bro, do you remember a Turkish company I believe it was KALE. Was tasked with helping to modernise USN submarine. Im unable to find link it was a while back.. I believe BAE systems was main supplier.

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## Bilal Khan 777

STM is a systems integrator, and much of the systems shall come from Turkish and other companies. Regardless, this is a big win for Turkish naval industry.

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## cabatli_53

Savas-Usta said:


> It's probably good to note that STM has a secondary organization that is tasked to reverse engineering complex platforms. Since Turkey is looking to develop it's own indigenous Submarines with next decade getting as much knowledge on such platforms could very well be crucial to reaching next stage in self reliance, Pakistan playing a big role behind the scenes I'm sure of it.
> 
> @cabatli_53 Bro, do you remember a Turkish company I believe it was KALE. Was tasked with helping to modernise USN submarine. Im unable to find link it was a while back.. I believe BAE systems was main supplier.




I couldn't remember bro but I will check some source for it !


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## Valkyrie

So pleased to see Turkey taking gigantic leaps in development of advanced military technologies. Every accomplishment Turkey makes, every milestones she crosses, makes us Pakistanis as proud as if they were our own. And why shouldn't we be proud, we're one nation after all. 
Godspeed my Turkish brothers. May you continue to rise, grow, prosper and reclaim the mantle of leading global power.

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## .




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## _NOBODY_

Are the torpedoes of our Agosta 90B similar in terms of capability as compared to Black Shark torpedo ? If not then why don't we go for it since it is Italian and we have a good relationship with Italy ?
@Quwa @The Eagle @The Deterrent @Bilal Khan 777


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## Quwa

TheGreatOne said:


> Are the torpedoes of our Agosta 90B similar in terms of capability as compared to Black Shark torpedo ? If not then why don't we go for it since it is Italian and we have a good relationship with Italy ?
> @Quwa @The Eagle @The Deterrent @Bilal Khan 777


Our primary heavyweight torpedo is the German DM2A4.

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## Oguzhan

Quwa said:


> Our primary heavyweight torpedo is the German DM2A4.



As far as i know DM2A4 can even sink an island with a nice shot.

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## ali_raza

Oguzhan said:


> As far as i know DM2A4 can even sink an island with a nice shot.


lol exactly


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## hassamun

Another example of great brotherly relations between Pakistan and Turkey...May this Relationship keep on rising for eternity...


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## khanasifm

???


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## fatman17

The French have stopped the supply chain for all agosta type subs, therefore some sub systems need replacement with new similar non french systems. happens all the time.


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## cabatli_53

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 320076
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> View attachment 320078
> 
> View attachment 320079
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 320080




AKYA Heavy torpedo






Akya in Marmara sea for trials






Upgraded Agosta submarines will be able to launch Akya torpedos as well.


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## Quwa

@cabatli_53 - is there a lightweight torpedo as well?


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## striver44

RAMPAGE said:


> Congratulation to both countries!


test

.


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## cabatli_53

Quwa said:


> @cabatli_53 - is there a lightweight torpedo as well?




Indeed bro but 533mm Heavy class has priority in development stage. Tork is also a light weight torpedo but designed to hunt coming hostile torpedo with hard-kill methods.






Upgraded Agosta will have Aselsan developed DAKA Submarine torpedo counter measure system/decoys

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## Hell hound

cabatli_53 said:


> Upgraded Agosta will have Aselsan developed DAKA Submarine torpedo counter measure system/decoys


great news if true but can you give us the source for this .


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## AsianLion

Wonderful job by Pakistan in selecting Turkish companies and rejecting the French and Turkish companies ensuring top of line technologies in the new upgraded Agosta Submarines.


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## Ghessan

Where our subs will stand after these upgrades particularly against Indian subs.


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## Areesh

Ghessan said:


> Where our subs will stand after these upgrades particularly against Indian subs.



As good as Indian scorpene

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## Bossman

Areesh said:


> As good as Indian scorpene


Better, as Scorpene don’t have AIPs

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## Dazzler

Areesh said:


> As good as Indian scorpene



Actually better in some aspects. Scorpene lacks an aesa radar, torpedo protection system.

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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Actually better in some aspects. Scorpene lacks an aesa radar, torpedo protection system.



So agosta has AESA radar???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> So agosta has AESA radar???


Not sure if it's AESA, but the Agosta 90B MLU is getting Kelvin Hughes' SharpEye LPI radar.

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## Dazzler

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not sure if it's AESA, but the Agosta 90B MLU is getting Kelvin Hughes' SharpEye LPI radar.



Corrected. It's solidstate PD with LPI not aess


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## Safriz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not sure if it's AESA, but the Agosta 90B MLU is getting Kelvin Hughes' SharpEye LPI radar.


It's a rotating antenna radar not solid state Aesa.
Plus I don't see any need of aesa on a submarine.
It's only used for collision avoidance when submarine is on surface.
While submerged, the sonars are enough

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