# American attack aftermath: Pakistan declares attack a 'plot'



## Bill Longley

Pakistan Closes Afghan Border Crossing To NATO Claiming They Attacked Army Checkpoint | Fox News 

A Pakistani customs official and a terminal operator say Pakistan has closed a key Afghan border crossing to NATO supplies after the U.S.-led coalition's helicopters allegedly attacked an army checkpoint, killing 25 soldiers.

The customs official told The Associated Press by phone Saturday that he received verbal orders to stop all NATO supplies from moving across the border through the Torkham crossing.

The operator of the border terminal where NATO supply trucks park before getting clearance to cross said the vehicles had been stopped since Saturday morning.

They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

Another official said the supplies had been stopped for security reasons.

The Pakistan military has blamed NATO helicopters for the attack on the checkpoint late Friday night. NATO is investigating.

A Pakistani government official and a security official say the dead from Friday night's attack in the Mohmand tribal area include two officers. State TV reported the death toll Saturday.

The incident late Friday night came a little over a year after U.S. helicopters accidentally killed two Pakistani soldiers near the border, whom the pilots mistook for insurgents they were pursuing. Pakistan responded by closing the border to NATO supplies for 10 days until the U.S. apologized.

In a statement sent to reporters, the Pakistan military blamed NATO for the attack in the Mohmand tribal area.

"ISAF/NATO helicopters carried out unprovoked and indiscriminate firing on a Pakistani checkpost in Mohmand agency ... Casualties have been reported," a military spokesman said.

NATO officials in Kabul said Saturday morning that they were aware of the incident, and would release more information after they were able to gather more facts about what happened.

The checkpoint that was attacked had been recently set up in Salala village by the Pakistan army to stop Taliban militants holed up in Afghanistan from crossing the border and staging attacks, said two government administrators in Mohmand, Maqsood Hasan and Hamid Khan.

The Pakistan military has blamed Pakistani Taliban militants and their allies for killing dozens of security forces in such cross-border attacks since the summer. Pakistan has criticized Afghan and foreign forces for not doing enough to stop the attacks, which it says have originated from the Afghan provinces of Kunar and Nuristan. The U.S. has largely pulled out of these provinces, leaving the militants in effective control of many areas along the border.

Washington considers the tribal belt a hotbed of al Qaeda, where Taliban and other militants plot attacks on American troops -- including those in the US-led international force based in Afghanistan.

Newscore and Reuters contributed to this report.

[

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## fatman17

Pakistan blocks NATO Afghan supplies after fatal air strike




YAKKAGHUND, Pakistan (Reuters) - NATO helicopters attacked a military checkpoint in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, killing up to 25 troops and prompting Pakistan to shut the vital supply route for NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan, Pakistani officials said.

The attack comes as relations between the United States and Pakistan, its ally in the war on terror, are already badly strained following the killing of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden by U.S. special forces in a secret raid on the Pakistani garrison town of Abbottabad in May.

Pakistan called that raid a flagrant violation of its sovereignty.

A Pakistani military spokesman confirmed Saturday's pre-dawn cross-border attack in the tribal region of Mohmand and said casualties had been reported, but gave no details.

"NATO helicopters carried out an unprovoked and indiscriminate firing on a Pakistani check post in Mohmand agency, casualties have been reported and details are awaited," the spokesman told Reuters.

Two military officials said that up to 25 Pakistani troops had been killed and 14 wounded in the attack on the Salala check post, about 2.5 km (1.5 miles) from the Afghan border.

"We have heard about heavy casualties but can't provide you with the exact number of casualties of our troops as the post is far away, located in the mountains and is difficult to reach at the moment," a military spokesman in Peshawar said.

The attack took place around 2 a.m. (2100 GMT) in the Baizai area of Mohmand, where Pakistani troops are fighting Taliban militants.

Another senior Pakistani military officer said efforts were under way to bring the bodies of the slain soldiers to Ghalanai, the headquarters of Mohmand tribal region.

"The latest attack by NATO forces on our post will have serious repercussions as they without any reasons attacked on our post and killed soldiers asleep," he said, requesting anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.

About 40 Pakistani army troops were stationed at the outpost, military sources said. Two officers were reported among the dead.

NATO supply trucks and fuel tankers bound for Afghanistan were stopped at Jamrud town in the Khyber tribal region near the city of Peshawar hours after the raid, officials said.

"We have halted the supplies and some 40 tankers and trucks have been returned from the check post in Jamrud," Mutahir Zeb, a senior government official, told Reuters.

Another official said the supplies had been stopped for security reasons.

Pakistan is a vital land route for 49 percent of NATO's supplies to its troops in Afghanistan, a NATO spokesman said.

A spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force in Kabul said the coalition there was aware of "an incident" and was gathering more information.

The incident occurred a day after U.S. General John Allen met Pakistani Army Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani to discuss border control and enhanced cooperation.

The Afghanistan-Pakistan border is often poorly marked, and differs between maps by up to five miles in some places.

A similar incident on Sept 30, 2009, which killed two Pakistani troops, led to the closure of one of NATO's supply routes through Pakistan for 10 days.

NATO apologized for that incident, which it said happened when NATO gunships mistook warning shots by the Pakistani forces for a militant attack.

The attack is expected to further worsen U.S.-Pakistan relations, already at one of their lowest points in history, following a tumultuous year that saw the bin Laden raid, the jailing of a CIA contractor, and U.S. accusations that Pakistan backed a militant attack on the U.S. Embassy in Kabul.

An increase in U.S. drone strikes on militants in the last few years has also irritated Islamabad, which says the campaign kills more Pakistani civilians in the border area than activists. Washington disputes that, but declines to discuss the drone campaign in detail.

"This is an attack on Pakistan's territorial sovereignty," said Masood Kasur, the governor of Pakistan's northwestern Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province.

"Such cross-border attacks cannot be tolerated any more. The government will take up this matter at the highest level and it will be investigated."

(Additional reporting by Saud Mehsud and Jibran Ahmad; Writing by Augustine Anthony and Chris Allbritton; Editing by Nick Macfie)


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## Bill Longley

*In era of GPS and GPRS its impossible that NATO did not know the position of Our Post. I think govt should give orders to shoot down hostile heli's if they cross limits. Shoot down 1 or two heli's they will behave. but with this Passive approch only result of hue and cry will be an apology over loss of Life by NATO and case close*

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## PakShaheen79

Chill out man ... Aik do din gherat ka bukhar charhay ga aur phir hum purani tankhawa par "kam" jari karain gay

I feel really sorry for the men who lost their lives today. But there is nothing more which Pakistan can do right now in presence of current leadership (both military and political)... as said by Iqbal

Hai Jurme Zaifi Ki Saza Marg e Mafajaat!

(Death of your interests is the punishment of your weakness)

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## Jango

This is F******* ridiculous, now when you have a GPS and all those fancy gadgets the US helis have, it is not possible to have been mistaken. Especially with NVG. Had it been some artillery shelling, would have been understandable, but this is outrageous.

This is an all out act of war.

Blocking the supply line is the least we could do.

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## sohailbarki

I am just wondering why the hell our troops on afghan border do not have man pads...

so our army is like basically armed taliban....shame....on our military think tank


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## Filmmaker

good decision...hope that they remain firm on their stand and not bow down to any American pressure. Time for NATO to pay back


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## Jango

Now this blockade should not be opened anytime soon.

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## kawaraj

Seal the whole border, let them going through Iran.

Maybe its Time to ally with Iran and cut the rope.

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## regular

sohailbarki said:


> I am just wondering why the hell our troops on afghan border do not have man pads...
> 
> so our army is like basically armed taliban....shame....on our military think tank


I guess our Army is like 16th century old Army....all the money is going into the swiss bank accounts and nothing is spend for equipping our poor soldiers...shame on the top elites Army or Civil.....all are nothing but traitors to the nation....

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## Jango

regular said:


> I guess our Army is like 16th century old Army....all the money is going into the swiss bank accounts and nothing is spend for equipping our poor soldiers...shame on the top elites Army or Civil.....all are nothing but traitors to the nation....



Get your facts right people, they do have them, and also Ack Ack, but they would not have been expecting helis to come in. They are there to fight the TTP, not NATO.

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## Developereo

Seal the supply routes permanently. Not 1 week, not 1 month, but PERMANENTLY.

The other supply routes are fraught with their own 'costs'. The only way America can continue its Afghan operations will be by giving massive concessions to Russia and Medvedev will demand his pound of flesh. The Russians will play hardball -- especially with the missile shield drama in Eastern Europe -- and the Chinese are more than eager to pay back for America's Pacific shenanigans.

*Let this incident go down in history as the beginning of the chain that resulted in NATO's ignominious retreat from Afghanistan.* That will be the best revenge for the deaths of these martyrs.

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## regular

nuclearpak said:


> This is F******* ridiculous, now when you have a GPS and all those fancy gadgets the US helis have, it is not possible to have been mistaken. Especially with NVG. Had it been some artillery shelling, would have been understandable, but this is outrageous.
> 
> This is an all out act of war.
> 
> Blocking the supply line is the least we could do.


Sir! we have traitors sitting within our top Govt offices and within the Top Army elites...the poor soldiers have nothing in hand to do about this situation. The nation is getting back stabbed by the evil around and among us.....very desperate situation lies ahead now. But Allah SBWT is great he is going to bring out some unforeseeable solution for our pains. Thats the only hope/faith keeping us alive Insha-Allah.....

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## 53fd

49% of NATO's supplies come from Pakistan. Time to close the supply routes *permanently*.

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## Jango

Developereo said:


> Seal the supply routes permanently. Not 1 week, not 1 month, but PERMANENTLY.
> 
> The other supply routes are fraught with their own 'costs'. The only way America can continue its Afghan operations will be by giving massive concessions to Russia and Medvedev will demand his pound of flesh. The Russians will play hardball -- especially with the missile shield drama in Eastern Europe -- and the Chinese are more than eager to pay back for America's Pacific shenanigans.
> 
> *Let this incident go down in history as the beginning of the chain that resulted in NATO's ignominious retreat from Afghanistan.* That will be the best revenge for the deaths of these martyrs.



Definitely. 30+ martyred is too much, by relentless Helicopter pounding. There is absolutely no excuse about this, about why the NATO pilots made the mistake of crossing the border and then failing to distinguish between uniformed soldiers and rag tag talibs, with all the GPS aids, and NVG devices. 

Supply routes should be blocked, and then a strong case be brought in the UN.


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## Bill Longley

Un ease lies the head who wears the crown. So Far Govt and Army has played cards very wisely. I think to be emotional and judgemental is stupid thing to do.

The closure of Supply route is a wise decision . and I agree with *Developereo* because its best thing to do

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## Safriz

Bill Longley said:


> *In era of GPS and GPRS its impossible that NATO did not know the position of Our Post. I think govt should give orders to shoot down hostile heli's if they cross limits. Shoot down 1 or two heli's they will behave. but with this Passive approch only result of hue and cry will be an apology over loss of Life by NATO and case close*


 
Bill you need to brush up on your technical knowledge as GPS has nothing to do with GPRS....Ans GpRS is never used for positioning.


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## regular

nuclearpak said:


> Get your facts right people, they do have them, and also Ack Ack, but they would not have been expecting helis to come in. They are there to fight the TTP, not NATO.


So this means they get backstabbed from US/NATO again and again cuz they consider them their friends ..okay let them bear the casualities and be happi with it....
They might learn lesson this time...


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## 53fd

nuclearpak said:


> Definitely. 30+ martyred is too much, by relentless Helicopter pounding. There is absolutely no excuse about this, about why the NATO pilots made the mistake of crossing the border and then failing to distinguish between uniformed soldiers and rag tag talibs, with all the GPS aids, and NVG devices.
> 
> Supply routes should be blocked, *and then a strong case be brought in the UN.*



The UN will do nothing. I can definitely see this event as a game changer though, the proxy & intelligence games will be in full force now, & this time, it's going to be a very bleak scenario for the troops in Afghanistan.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Pakistan and Nato will patch up again as Nato needs Pakistan more in winter to reduce its logistic cost (winter and snow will double the cost of bring logistic from north of Afghanistan ) but Pakistan should seal its ports for Afghanistan trade (transit) as the imports of Afgan goods end up selling inside Pakistan as duty free (smuggled cloth , tea , electric goods etc ). 

The ruling class in Kabul hate Pakistan so why should Pakistan provide the transit for trillions of rupees to help smuggling industry in Pakistan , its a set back to tax paying importers of Pakistan? Pakistani roads are burdened by Afghan transit (billions of loss in the long run). Every one know so many containers were smuggled in by Karachi port by corrupt minister and custom officers so stop the Afghan transit from the Karachi port. 

Last time the GOP give up in ten days let see the shameless GOP will hold the closure this time. Time will tell.


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## Safriz

bilalhaider said:


> 49% of NATO's supplies come from Pakistan. Time to close the supply routes *permanently*.


 
yes...shut it permanently...enough is enough.


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## Developereo

This is the make or break moment for Imran Khan and PTI. Organize a permanent 24/7 civilian blockade of the supply routes.

The time for 'investigations', 'explanations' and 'apologies' is past.

The blockade stays in place until the last NATO soldier has left Afghanistan in humiliating retreat.

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## Jango

bilalhaider said:


> The UN will do nothing. I can definitely see this event as a game changer though, the proxy & intelligence games will be in full force now, & this time, it's going to be a very bleak scenario for the troops in Afghanistan.



Some friends ( within the higher end of the army) said that COAS is really outraged by the acts of NATO and other countries. And this case will be pursued, definitely. Or else, shame on us. I can see a strong message being sent out to those NATO sc**.

BTW, which NATO country did this?

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------




Developereo said:


> This is the make or break moment for Imran Khan and PTI. Organize a permanent 24/7 civilian blockade of the supply routes.
> 
> The time for 'investigations', 'explanations' and 'apologies' is past.
> 
> The blockade stays in place until the last NATO soldier has left Afghanistan in humiliating retreat.



He has a blockade on 25 Dec if I am not wrong. But that is too late. Get a dharna within 2 days at Peshawar. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

The last time we blocked the NATO routes, they were on their knees.


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## Developereo

nuclearpak said:


> Definitely. 30+ martyred is too much, by relentless Helicopter pounding. There is absolutely no excuse about this, about why the NATO pilots made the mistake of crossing the border and then failing to distinguish between uniformed soldiers and rag tag talibs, with all the GPS aids, and NVG devices.
> 
> Supply routes should be blocked, and then a strong case be brought in the UN.



No, Sir!

As I wrote, the time for explanations and inquiries has passed.

*The blockade stays in place until the last NATO soldier leaves Afghanistan. Not one single truck will pass through Pakistan.*

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## 53fd

This incident will not result in a direct confrontation between the US & Pakistan, but the Pakistan government will be under pressure by the people & the Army to react strongly. Kayani will be under pressure to react strongly as well, so that the Army ranks do not become dissatisfied with him & don't want to overthrow him. This is a make-or-break time for the Army & government.

Likely scenario: the supplies from Pakistan will be closed indefinitely, the "co-operation" between Pakistan & the US in Afghanistan will cease, more intelligence games will be played in Afghanistan, attacks in Afghanistan will increase. On the outlook, Pakistan & the US will still be "allies".


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## regular

Developereo said:


> This is the make or break moment for Imran Khan and PTI. Organize a permanent 24/7 civilian blockade of the supply routes.
> 
> The time for 'investigations', 'explanations' and 'apologies' is past.
> 
> The blockade stays in place until the last NATO soldier has left Afghanistan in humiliating retreat.


Sir! politicians are poiliticians they can be sold out very easily. We shold never depend on the politicians. never let them in control of our destiny.....


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## Jango

Developereo said:


> No, Sir!
> 
> As I wrote, the time for explanations and inquiries is past.
> 
> *The blockade stays in place until the last NATO soldier leaves Afghanistan. Not one single truck will pass through Pakistan.*



The people who drive the trucks, they should have some feelings that for whom they are doing. But alas, they are their just for the money.


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## Irfan Baloch

I dont know if the Americans should be blamed for that.
they are already killing the civilians on regular bases in Afghanistan despite how many times the Afghan president protests and threatens them that he will stop cooperating. I mean killing anyone for the heck of it is just a habit. if they dont find any enemy they will kill civilians. if they cant find civilians they will kill allies, if they cant find allies they will kill their own troops.


I think its part 2 of their "kill team" approach
what will be intersting is to see if the action was directed from their top command or the helicopter pilots decided to have some fun.

indeed they have raised the stakes now. if American command and the president isnt involved in this operation then they will be slapping their heads now for the increased headache.

well rest in peace for the soldiers is all I can say.

Taliban will have a good day to laugh at both of its enemies while the web trolls wont loose an opertunity to have their share of fame too.


interesting bit here


*
The checkpoint that was attacked had been recently set up in the Mohmand tribal area by the Pakistan army to stop Taliban fighters holed up in Afghanistan from crossing the border and staging attacks, said two government administrators in Mohmand, Maqsood Hasan and Hamid Khan.*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

I wish more americans n NATO die..ameen!

...K usa!

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## Developereo

Keep in mind the US has pissed off everyone, including the Russians and the Chinese.

If we can pull this off and kick NATO out, it will take Pak-Iran and Pak-China relationships to new heights.

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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> I dont know if the Americans should be blamed for that.
> they aare already killing the civilians on regular bases in Afghanistan despite how many times the Afghan president protests and threatens them that he will stop cooperating.
> 
> I think its part 2 of their "kill team" approach
> what will be intersting is to see if the action was directed from their top command or the helicopter pilots decided to have some fun.
> 
> indeed they have raised the stakes now. if American command and the president isnt involved in this operation then they will be slapping their heads now for the increased headache.
> 
> well rest in peace for the soldiers is all I can say.
> 
> Taliban will have a good day to laugh at both of its enemies while the web trolls wont loose an opertunity to have their share of fame too.



Well , it was NATO.

Any news that which NATO heli did it? Most probably the brits.

Some action will be taken for a month, but everything will be restored to normalcy, much to the dismay of the public and us.

---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------




Developereo said:


> Keep in mind the US has pissed off everyone, including the Russians and the Chinese.
> 
> If we can pull this off and kick NATO out, it will take Pak-Iran and Pak-China relationships to new heights.



The Chinese are pissed off for the US involvement in the Pacific, and the Ruskies are mad at the missile shield being put in Europe, so definitely this is a good opportunity.


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## Developereo

regular said:


> Sir! politicians are poiliticians they can be sold out very easily. We shold never depend on the politicians. never let them in control of our destiny.....



Yes, that is why I said it should be a civilian blockade led by the PTI.

The politicians will do nothing, and this also gives the army an excuse -- after all, why should the army intervene? Mass civil disobedience is the cornerstone of protest in a democracy.

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum 

don't open this border and nobody will come in our support coz they know after 2 weeks we will get some money ( or may be without getting anything accept some apology ) and open the route and border 1st prove u r worthy of support i m sure many don't like the american or nato policy and there will be some objections from nato members itself 

TARIQ


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## 53fd

Irfan Baloch said:


> I dont know if the Americans should be blamed for that.
> they aare already killing the civilians on regular bases in Afghanistan despite how many times the Afghan president protests and threatens them that he will stop cooperating.
> 
> I think its part 2 of their "kill team" approach
> what will be intersting is to see if the action was directed from their top command or the helicopter pilots decided to have some fun.
> 
> indeed they have raised the stakes now. if American command and the president isnt involved in this operation then they will be slapping their heads now for the increased headache.
> 
> well rest in peace for the soldiers is all I can say.
> 
> Taliban will have a good day to laugh at both of its enemies while the web trolls wont loose an opertunity to have their share of fame too.
> 
> 
> interesting bit here
> 
> 
> *
> The checkpoint that was attacked had been recently set up in the Mohmand tribal area by the Pakistan army to stop Taliban fighters holed up in Afghanistan from crossing the border and staging attacks, said two government administrators in Mohmand, Maqsood Hasan and Hamid Khan.*



Here's another incident about 10 days ago when militants from Afghanistan tried to infiltrate into Mohmand:

Intruders killed in Mohmand | Provinces | DAWN.COM


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## khalidwaleed

soldiers were killed because they look like Taliban????

my pak brothers you should rethink 

two days before there was a thread in PDF that U.S. Military can hit any target on earth in 30 minutes!!!!

see how this assholes boast, but can not even recognize a military check post. this is not the first time they have this blindness . 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deh_Bala_wedding_party_bombing


the mater is this shits think they are superior and fires the gun even they have less than 20% conformation,because they have very less value for the lives of the people of the region.actually they don't care . and the punishment is closing the border for just 10 days. that is one of the finest jokes i have heard. give some respect to ur soldiers.

this will happen only in pakistan...

and why do you allow armed helicopters of NATO to roam around in your air space?, itz ridiculous.

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## Omar1984

Pakistan should block all NATO supplies permanently and hold early election because this PPP government are the biggest pets of Amreeka in the history of Pakistan.

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## 53fd

Another interesting fact:

*Pakistani officials say NATO helicopter raid kills 28 'asleep' Pakistani soldiers*

Officials: NATO chopppers kill Pakistani troops - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com


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## 53fd

> A senior Pakistani military officer said efforts were under way to bring the bodies of the slain soldiers to Ghalanai, the headquarters of Mohmand tribal region.
> 
> *"The latest attack by NATO forces on our post will have serious repercussions as they without any reasons attacked on our post and killed soldiers asleep," *he said, requesting anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.



Officials: NATO chopppers kill Pakistani troops - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com


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## humanfirst

What is nato's explanation for killing soldiers?


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## 53fd

I don't know what the US is trying to do: it is pushing for a war against Syria, Iran; & maybe Pakistan as well. It is also deploying troops in Australia to counter China's influence in the Asian Pacific. What is the US trying to do?


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## Bill Longley

Hope NATO was not infiltrating militants because I dont see any reason for the attack ?


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## Irfan Baloch

the response should be to block supplies permanently
And provide air defence to the units that are protecting the border and specially the forces that are stopping the infiltration from Afghan side.
It appears that NATO is repeatedly attacking those posts that are hindering the entry of TTP and other anti Pakistan elements.

Now that the snake has been removed as the ambassador in Washington, there is a chance that Mr Slime can be deposed and a care taker government is setup. 
Which can deal with Americans openly and without taking pot shots at the Pakistan army and also USA will have only one entity to deal with and they will know whats the deal a clear and open relationship in this WoT will help both sides and if NATO (read Americans ) are playing a covert game then a joint decision can be made about whether to finish this pseudo alliance and treat the NATO (Americans) forces like the hostiles.

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## mr42O

if nato supplies are reopens army will be biggest coward and bhagrato ka tola... i will loose respect and my belief in ur army. Not common soldiers but these top gernals who are there because of americans wished. Imran Khan - PTI plz take action.... we want u to lead us to block all supplies.....

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Any one thinks Zardari care for Pakistani lives ? they should weak up now. how many times he have come in media to talk about these meters ? 
Army Chief should retire, he has give up to Pressures so easily in the past. 
Time will tell when the supply line will reopen , how long economically weaken Pakistan can take the Pressure. Pakistan has to choose between $$$s or self respect ?


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## Omar1984

Bill Longley said:


> Hope NATO was not infiltrating militants because I dont see any reason for the attack ?



NATO can not stand seeing peace in Pakistan so their objective was probably that to infiltrate anti-pakistan elements into Pakistan.

Blocking the NATO supplies permanently should send NATO packing in a few months.

Iran and Pakistan are the only 2 neighbors of Afghanistan with sea ports. The only other way is through Russia and Russia will not allow it, and just forget about that route especially in dead of winter.


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## mr42O

and why is that every time a post been setup to stop terriost to get in Pakistan NATO heli attack them ??? Was Nato helping some ppl to get in Pakistan?

i bet americans testing our limits... testing how much they can push us before we answer back... maybe its not for Nato but some else....


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## jahan

Respected NATO members.... is blood of a Pakistani soldier too much less worthy that you bleed it month after month? is the figure of more than 3000 not enough yet?? is the figure of more than 20000 of civilians not enough yet? why do you do that? is it some crusade that want to have fun in? why do you do this to my brothers and cousins in PAKISTAN ARMY every time... tell me .... plz tell me... am i too less worthy than you.... are you special???

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

respected Mr. President! today, the emerging news of martyrdom of more than two dozens security personals at the hand of NATO/US forces is of real concern to us, Pakistanis, and a great tragedy. Plz, as you are Chief commander of Armed forces, do not let their blood flow in vain, and do something about it and let our brothers, cousins be no more victim to this aggression..... plz do not let these foreign forces only apologize by their mouth... plz have mercy.... and make us feel proud instead of every time victimized by these aggressors... plz Mr. President

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

jahan said:


> Respected NATO members.... is blood of a Pakistani soldier too much less worthy that you bleed it month after month? is the figure of more than 3000 not enough yet?? is the figure of more than 20000 of civilians not enough yet? why do you do that? is it some crusade that want to have fun in? why do you do this to my brothers and cousins in PAKISTAN ARMY every time... tell me .... plz tell me... am i too less worthy than you.... are you special???



Assalam alaikum

dosroon say gila kun ker tay hain why our these soldeirs don't slap their generals for making them easy targets for nato?

TARIQ


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## jahan

but Major, US is now telling not to have gas pipeline with Iran, too. and some of our government officials have given statements in obedience!!!


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## Omar1984

I will say this. The current rulers of Pakistan (including the establishment) doesnt deserve the respect of Pakistanis.

In 1965, when foreign troops crossed International Borders and attacked Pakistan, humney moo thor kay jawab deyah tha.

Today in 2011, when foreign troops crosses International Borders and attacks Pakistan, we close their supply lines that goes through Pakistan's territory for just 1 week (which doesnt even affect them much) and continue cooperating with them as nothing had happened.

The current Pakistani rulers are the main problem.

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Omar1984 said:


> I will say this. The current rulers of Pakistan (including the establishment) doesnt deserve the respect of Pakistanis.
> 
> In 1965, when foreign troops crossed International Borders and attacked Pakistan, humney moo thor kay jawab deyah tha.
> 
> Today in 2011, when foreign troops crosses International Borders and attacks Pakistan, we close supply lines for just 1 week (which doesnt even affect them much) and continue cooperating with them as nothing had happened.
> 
> The current Pakistani rulers are the main problem.



both military and civilian rulers 

these army top command how many blunders happened during their time and they still not feeling ashamed?

TARIQ

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## Imran Khan

dont worry these idiots do it many times before they will open it tomorrow they just make this fun to keep nation cool lolz

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## Developereo

People,

Let's stop complaining about the politicians and the army. The politicians will not do anything; we know that so, to even discuss them, is a waste of time. In fact, if they get involved, they will make some drama and it will be business as usual.

The army also should not get involved in the blockade since it could then be considered an act of war by NATO.

The only solution is a mass civil disobedience movement to block the routes independent of the army or government.

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## Imran Khan

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> both military and civilian rulers
> 
> these army top command how many blunders happened during their time and they still not feeling ashamed?
> 
> TARIQ



they get every month salary enjoy luxury and get benefits why should they ashamed?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

@tariq bin ziyad if you are thinking about a mutiny... forget it!.... only rag tag armies face mutinies...


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Developereo said:


> People,
> 
> Let's stop complaining about the politicians and the army. The politicians will not do anything; we know that so, to even discuss them, is a waste of time. In fact, if they get involved, they will make some drama and it will be business as usual.
> 
> The army also should not get involved in the blockade since it could then be considered an act of war by NATO.
> 
> *The only solution is a mass civil disobedience movement to block the routes independent of the army or government*.



agreed and mentioned it earlier it is time for awam to come out enough of parliment resolutions and ispr's

TARIQ

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## Secur

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> dosroon say gila kun ker tay hain why our these soldeirs don't slap their generals for making them easy targets for nato?
> 
> TARIQ


 True ...
The biggest coward are the Chief of Army Staff and the top brass ... Pathetic beggars 



raavan said:


> How will u shoot them if u cannot even see them. remember the obl raid


 Yes , even their soldiers are invisible ... Stop embarrassing yourself ... Pathetic troll

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## Always Neutral

Bill Longley said:


> *In era of GPS and GPRS its impossible that NATO did not know the position of Our Post. I think govt should give orders to shoot down hostile heli's if they cross limits. Shoot down 1 or two heli's they will behave. but with this Passive approch only result of hue and cry will be an apology over loss of Life by NATO and case close*



Only if you reported the post to NATO! I am sure PA has bombed its own troops by mistake several times.

BBC News - Pakistan army shell kills troops in battle with Taliban

*At least 13 Pakistani soldiers have been killed by one of their own mortar shells during a battle with Taliban militants in the north-west.*

It happens in war.


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## Farooq

Gen. Kiyani should resign ASAP!

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## Secur

Always Neutral said:


> Only if you reported the post to NATO! I am sure PA has bombed its own troops by mistake several times.
> 
> BBC News - Pakistan army shell kills troops in battle with Taliban
> 
> *At least 13 Pakistani soldiers have been killed by one of their own mortar shells during a battle with Taliban militants in the north-west.*
> 
> It happens in war.


 So they couldn't see the check post with a Pakistani flag on it ?
Or somehow the Talibans have got the uniform of PA ? What silly excuses and justification are you making here ?
Everytime the Govt tries to negotiate or stop cross border infiltrations , NATO ramps up drone attacks and does things like this ... Stop this rubbish ... IT isn't fooling anyone

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## jahan

baat to sach hai magr baat hai ruswai ki....
aur
hamey to apno nay loota ghairon mai kahan dam tha....

we have buried at least 4 soldiers so far in recent years in our village just because we are not able to elect right persons for right posts in government and related....
and untill we elect the right ones.... we are not going anywhere.... so ... we have a chance in 2013, shall i say...
and IMRAN KHAN, would be a hope.... but i am requesting him that if it is necessary to talk to TTP,,, plz do not talk to them from position of weakness but rather hold your positions in FATA as we, Armed forces, would be there at the time...

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## Imran Khan

Farooq said:


> Gen. Kiyani should resign ASAP!



he is going to nato HQ for ask to resign or stay 

you guys are fools? helicopters fly over center of pakistan commandos land kill people and fly again still he not resign 28 is nothing for him he has 600.000 more guys in hand under his great command .

i am sure if these attack on taliban they must shot and reply at least kill 3-5 NATO solders


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## Farooq

This is a deliberate assault by NATO.... why would anyone doubt this?


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## Secur

Farooq said:


> This is a deliberate assault by NATO.... why would anyone doubt this?


 Because some think that the storm will pass if they bury their heads in sand


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## khanz4996

this is a direct response to the pak-china military manovers which ended yesterday pakistan should deploy air defenses in border with afghanistan close the border deploy anza missiles evict all nato ambassadors from pakistan and cut off ties with all nato countries and issue a shoot to kill orders.pakistani army should declare emergancy and arrest all the govt officals including PM and President and convit them under articale 6 of the constitution and hang them for being traitors to the country.this should be the response we should declare a war on nato and issue ultimatum to all the neghabouring contries to evict all the troops from their soil or be ready to face retailtory attacks.

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## Irfan Baloch

my request to some posters,
Emotions wont get us anywhere so don&#8217;t post silly ghayrat stuff. if you think its too easy to decide and delcare war then there will be war everywhere. just imagine what Americans say about their leaders when stories of alleged help of Pakistan towards haqqanis are made time and again whenever the Americans suffer losses. they say the same thing that why Pakistan is not attacked and why it is being given aid.

war is a complicated matter and you cant control everything, deaths happen and only cooler heads win the day.




> NATO's commander in Afghanistan said he is committed to a thorough investigation.
> 
> "This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts," Marine Gen. John R. Allen said Saturday.
> 
> He also offered his "sincere and personal heartfelt condolences" to the families of any Pakistan Security Forces members killed or injured.





the above quote suggests that for now American command is not owning or justifying the attack, but as the time will pass I am sure American hawks and warmongers will justify it over Pakistan&#8217;s dual role and helping Haqqanis and all the usual rubbish (whether Haqqanis operate in Mohmand or not is irrelevant for them).

What I really want to find out is if Pakistan can plot the flight route. Did they specifically come for that post and after destroying it they went back?
That will mean a deliberate operation and hostility.

The likely explanation from Americans will be that they came under fire from Pakistani check post so they returned fire but the question is what these pillocks were doing inside Pakistan and what did they expect from the check post (if indeed it fired on them) if they didn&#8217;t identify themselves and since there is no agreement of any arial strikes other than UAVs then they shouldn&#8217;t have been here in the first place. I think in future proper air defence equipment needs to be installed so that Americans are more careful and more proficient in using their GPS equipment and not enter into Pakistan by &#8220;mistake&#8221;. I do suspect foul play but its just a suspicion.

Does anyone know how far did they fly inside? I cant find this information anywhere

Regardless of whether it was a deliberate and premeditated attack on post or a mistake doesn&#8217;t matter because the incident is very grave and has affected the Pakistan&#8217;s war on terror very badly.

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## Developereo

Irfan Baloch said:


> Does anyone know how far did they fly inside? I cant find this information anywhere



Fatman's post #2 says the attack was 2.5km inside Pakistani border.

I agree the army can't do anything - we simply can't take on NATO militarily.

That is why the only solution is mass civil disobedience to block the routes permanently. The army can just throw up their hands and say "hey that's democracy".

PS. And we shouldn't fall for these bullshit 'investigations' and 'apologies'. Block the routes PERMANENTLY.

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## khanz4996

@irfan bhai
GEDAAR KI 100 SALA ZINDAGI SAI SHER KI 1 DIN KE ZANDAGI BEHTAR HAI.
we are ready for the war if u are not then get ready because its coming if we want it or not if we fight we will die one day if we dont fight still we will die one day.its better to fight and die like a man then be slaughtered like chickens

---------- Post added at 12:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 PM ----------




Developereo said:


> Fatman's post #2 says the attack was 2.5km inside Pakistani border.
> 
> I agree the army can't do anything - we simply can't take on NATO militarily.
> 
> That is why the only solution is mass civil disobedience to block the routes permanently. The army can just throw up their hands and say "hey that's democracy".


who says this?
if vietnam can take on USA head on then we can we are more powerful we are 3 times more then them and we got 20 times more military power so dont be a coward.i am ready for any thing and i will prefer to die in a war then lay in my bed and wait for the angel of death to come and take my soul away


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## Secur

Why didn't the soldiers call the air support ? Seriously , this is too much


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## khanz4996

and if you block the routes then airstrikes can be lauched under the pretext of terrorist are blocking our supplies and we need to eliminate them because they are putting our troops lives at risk

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------




Secur said:


> Why didn't the soldiers call the air support ? Seriously , this is too much


F*** the air support dont they even have shoulder mounted surface to air missile in whole one company???????


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## Developereo

khanz4996 said:


> if vietnam can take on USA head on then we can we are more powerful we are 3 times more then them and we got 20 times more military power so dont be a coward.i am ready for any thing and i will prefer to die in a war then lay in my bed and wait for the angel of death to come and take my soul away



My friend, what is our objective here?

Do we just want to see some American blood or do we have a strategic objective? If we can achieve our objectives without a military conflict, then so much the better.

Block NATO routes; let them pay their pound of flesh to Medvedev for the northern routes. This will 'complicate' America's relationship with Eastern Europe and give them a reality check.

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## Imran Khan

Secur said:


> Why didn't the soldiers call the air support ? Seriously , this is too much



they just waste our weapons and money on exersizes damn .kam dhandha kuch hota nhi khali exersizes ker ker ke hathiyar mukai ja rahy hai  give me bloody anza i can lock and fire in 10 sec a bloody slow heli . you think its some thing great job ? nope its fun .

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## regular

Irfan Baloch said:


> the response should be to block supplies permanently
> And provide air defence to the units that are protecting the border and specially the forces that are stopping the infiltration from Afghan side.
> It appears that NATO is repeatedly attacking those posts that are hindering the entry of TTP and other anti Pakistan elements.Now that the snake has been removed as the ambassador in Washington, there is a chance that Mr Slime can be deposed and a care taker government is setup.
> Which can deal with Americans openly and without taking pot shots at the Pakistan army and also USA will have only one entity to deal with and they will know whats the deal a clear and open relationship in this WoT will help both sides and if NATO (read Americans ) are playing a covert game then a joint decision can be made about whether to finish this pseudo alliance and treat the NATO (Americans) forces like the hostiles.


Yes! thats what exactly is going on in that area....our Checkposts there are pain in their @$$z thats why they trying to get rid of them by murdering our poor soldiers mercilessly........


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## Gin ka Pakistan

was it a litmus test by *Indo - NATO Hacks*: how the Pakistani nation will react before the last stage of exit policy in which western Hacks will do major attacks and put boots in Pakistani Tribal areas , weaken Pakistan Army and take their respect & trust out of common persons mind and eliminate anti Kabul forces and strengthen Civil puppet government of PPP in Pakistan after they lost Haqqani,

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## Secur

khanz4996 said:


> F*** the air support dont they even have shoulder mounted surface to air missile in whole one company???????



Where did Anza Mk3 Go ? Damn or these equipment are only for military exhibitions


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## mr42O

Always Neutral said:


> Only if you reported the post to NATO! I am sure PA has bombed its own troops by mistake several times.
> 
> BBC News - Pakistan army shell kills troops in battle with Taliban
> 
> *At least 13 Pakistani soldiers have been killed by one of their own mortar shells during a battle with Taliban militants in the north-west.*
> 
> It happens in war.



Killing 25 Pakistanies + all injured BY F**** mistake, crossing over to Pakistani ara by mistake ******. As each time posts fighting against terrorist from Afghanistan crossing over get attacked why ??? Let nuke NATO counrties by mistake................


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## W.11

y not kill some natoes by miskate, and call it friendly fire

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## Zizou

Yaar hadh hoti hai ... Agar army, government sab biki hai toa kya poorie qaum bhi soee hai ... come out on roads, block the supply routes ... this blocking of one route drama has been played so many times before ... BLOCK ALL ROUTES AND PERMANENTLY ... ARM ALL POSTS AND FOR F*** SAKE, take these motherf**** head on next time they dare ... trust me, whole nation will fight with the army ... zilat ki sau saala zindagi sey izat ki ek din ki zindagi behtar hai ... Khuda ka wasta hai, JAAAAAGOOOOO

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## regular

I guess Pak Army choppers shold enter Afghan territory and kill some NATO troops there and then say that the militants were hiding there disguised as the coalition forces.......


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## W.11

i think this will serve as a tipping point for the disposition of zardari govt,

but i hope that it will be done more democratically then militarily


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## Imran Khan

regular said:


> I guess Pak Army choppers shold enter Afghan territory and kill some NATO troops there and then say that the militants were hiding there disguised as the coalition forces.......



i guess pak army will ask more cobras for revenge of dead dont worry soon 1sqn of junk is on the way


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Imran Khan said:


> i guess pak army will ask more cobras for revenge of dead dont worry soon 1sqn of junk is on the way


WOT is not Pakistan's war - Imran Khan


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## Imran Khan

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> WOT is not Pakistan's war - Imran Khan



nope its our war now it was not our but we badly involve in it for get toys and stay with uncle so we are getting back now .

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## regular

Imran Khan said:


> i guess pak army will ask more cobras for revenge of dead dont worry soon 1sqn of junk is on the way


At least they shold get one Cobra for each dead and one million dollar US to each of the deceased family anf half million$ for the injured otherwise no cooporation or ally business anymore....


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## cybertron

Imran Khan said:


> i guess pak army will ask more cobras for revenge of dead dont worry soon 1sqn of junk is on the way


To be frank its getting a wee bit irritating to watch all this!!! Pakistan acts like a lion with India not ready to forgive or forget anything but when it comes to US or NATO, the establishment is mum!!!
anyways it seems any initiative yheir is will have to be taken by the general public of pakistan!

RIP to the soldiers

---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------




regular said:


> At least they shold get *one Cobra for each dead *and one million dollar US to each of the deceased family anf half million$ for the injured otherwise no cooporation or ally business anymore....


 
Pity your thought process! and shameful it is!!!

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## Developereo

regular said:


> At least they shold get one Cobra for each dead and one million dollar US to each of the deceased family anf half million$ for the injured otherwise no cooporation or ally business anymore....



US GDP is $14.5 trillion, which means they make about half a million/second.


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## koolio

First of all my condolences to the deceased ones killed in a cowardly attack by Nato, Pakistan has no choice but to close the Nato supplies permanently because the loss of 28 soldiers is too much to bear, Either way I can see this is definitely most critical time for Pakistan's leadership, its possible the government may collapse because they have completely failed to provide security to the Pakistani people remember its not the army who calls the shots, its the civilian government who gives orders to the army for rules of engagement.


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## Imran Khan

*welcome the great pakistani army and its great general kiyani's statement published by greatest ISPR *


No PR284/2011-ISPR Dated: November 26, 2011
Rawalpindi - November 26, 2011: 

On the night of 25/26 November NATO helicopters and fighter aircraft carried out unprovoked firing on two Pakistani Army border posts in Mahmand Agency as a result of which 24 troops embraced shahadat and 13 were injured. Pakistani troops effectively responded immediately in self defence to NATO / ISAF&#8217;s aggression with all available weapons.

COAS has strongly condemned NATO / ISAF&#8217;s blatant and *unacceptable* act resulting in loss of precious lives of Pakistani soldiers. While lauding the *effective response *by the soldiers of Pakistan Army in self defence, he directed that all *necessary steps be under taken* for an effective response to this irresponsible act.

A *strong protest* has been launched with NATO / ISAF in which it has been demanded that strong and *urgent action be taken those responsible* for this aggression.


http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o=t-press_release&id=1917#pr_link1917





IN KE PASS KUCH NYA NHI HAI KEHNY KE LIYE ?  

---------- Post added at 04:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

*welcome the great pakistani army and its great general kiyani's statement published by greatest ISPR *


No PR284/2011-ISPR Dated: November 26, 2011
Rawalpindi - November 26, 2011: 

On the night of 25/26 November NATO helicopters and fighter aircraft carried out unprovoked firing on two Pakistani Army border posts in Mahmand Agency as a result of which 24 troops embraced shahadat and 13 were injured. Pakistani troops effectively responded immediately in self defence to NATO / ISAFs aggression with all available weapons.

COAS has strongly condemned NATO / ISAFs blatant and *unacceptable* act resulting in loss of precious lives of Pakistani soldiers. While lauding the *effective response *by the soldiers of Pakistan Army in self defence, he directed that all *necessary steps be under taken* for an effective response to this irresponsible act.

A *strong protest* has been launched with NATO / ISAF in which it has been demanded that strong and *urgent action be taken those responsible* for this aggression.


http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o=t-press_release&id=1917#pr_link1917





IN KE PASS KUCH NYA NHI HAI KEHNY KE LIYE ?


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## Rafael

National Tv is reporting that the attacks were not a mistake rather they were intentional.

Lets wait for more details on this.


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## Hulk

What can Pakistan do, apart from closing border?


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## Khan_patriot

indianrabbit said:


> What can Pakistan do, apart from closing border?



u quit fcuking around and stfu.....

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## Always Neutral

mr42O said:


> Killing 25 Pakistanies + all injured BY F**** mistake, crossing over to Pakistani ara by mistake ******. As each time posts fighting against terrorist from Afghanistan crossing over get attacked why ??? Let nuke NATO counrties by mistake................



Do it anytime after you return from Norway to pakistan?


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## W.11

i request india members to not troll here, it is a very sad news for pakistan, to display some manners and human behaviour, please dont be so insensitive to the lives lost

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## Nirvana

KarachiPunk said:


> i request india members to not troll here, it is a very sad news for pakistan, to display some manners and human behaviour, please dont be so insensitive to the lives lost



Its sad When Soldiers Get Killed ! In the End they Died For Their Respective Nation.I Hope you say Similiar thing On 26/11 Thread that i Started for Tribute to Our Martyrs , Which was Ruined By Trolling from Your Side !

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## vishal111

closing boader wont help you..the americans will close the aid..then what


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## Bahdar

Closing borders, registering protest and asking for investigation these are all routine matters. what should close; the wasteful expenditures, close the waste of time, close the waste of resources, close those who stops the spending on education, close those who do not want to organize our forces on modern lines, close those who want to keep this nation backward, close those who has no idea that what this great nation needs. This nation needs education on modern line, this nation needs forces on modern lines. this is time of computers and drones, this is time for space technology. this is time for genetic engineering. think about it.


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> Only if you reported the post to NATO! I am sure PA has bombed its own troops by mistake several times.
> 
> BBC News - Pakistan army shell kills troops in battle with Taliban
> 
> *At least 13 Pakistani soldiers have been killed by one of their own mortar shells during a battle with Taliban militants in the north-west.*
> 
> It happens in war.



BullSh1*

This check post of Salala is on US/NATO maps. Many flag meetings have been held here in the past. And it is not a small post. It is compnay HQ of PA company that cleared Baizai area from TTP militants and pushed them into Afghanistan. Now this check post was the real hurdle in TTP's return into Pakistani areas.

Should i say anything more .... to prove that it was a deliberate ATTACK!


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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> BullSh1*
> 
> This check post of Salala is on US/NATO maps. Many flag meetings have been held here in the past. And it is not a small post. It is compnay HQ of PA company that cleared Baizai area from TTP militants and pushed them into Afghanistan. Now this check post was the real hurdle in TTP's return into Pakistani areas.
> 
> Should i say anything more .... to prove that it was a deliberate ATTACK!



Says who? Why would do a deliberate attack when our supply lines pass thru your country. Why would we make Gen. Kiyani's already difficult job impossible? Please don't be gullible as some Indians here and TTP supporters would like you to be. If the good Taliban control 80% of the AFg country side than TTP would not survive even one day in AFg.


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

Always Neutral said:


> Says who? Why would do a deliberate attack when our supply lines pass thru your country. Why would we make Gen. Kiyani's already difficult job impossible? Please don't be gullible as some Indians here and TTP supporters would like you to be. If the good Taliban control 80% of the AFg country side than TTP would not survive even one day in AFg.



nevertheless, the NATO rats have no excuse for this, because it had happened earlier as well. you have to be a complete retard if you dont see the difference between Taliban and Pakistani soldiers and our checkpoints are nothing like their. this proves how incapable the nato rats are and possible trigger happy junkies as well shooting at their target without having full confirmation of who the targets are. The checkpoints were there for taliban, but this incident says something else. We should arm the soldiers with bigger firepower so the next time these nato rats try something funny they will learn a lesson


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## Jango

So the latest developments are

- US ambassador Munter had been summoned to Foreign Office

-Protest has been lodged everywhere

-A Corp Commander has been held at GHQ

-A National Security Council meeting is expected to begin shortly, President, PM, Foreign Minister, COAS and Gen Khalid Shameem Wyne will be present.

All supply routes have been sealed and returned from the border.

IMO, the only way these yanks will stop is by shooting a heli down. A team should be sent to Afghanistan, the heli should be lured towards pak, and the Heli should be shot, the US dare not do anything else, in the current situation. The COAS is absolutely furious and a strong stance is expected by atleast the army if not the political setup.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------

A report on ARY news read as following.

The Pak Army company (which was targetted in this attack) had recently expelled a group named Abu Hammam of TTP from the area. The commander of the group fled to Afghanistan and was caught by ISAF. The commander gave the location of the Company Headquarter as his TTP headquarter, and the ISAF attacked.

Highly unlikely though.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

chalo chalo ab sub lassi pee ker so jao moutter foreign office MAY A GAYA

TARIQ

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## IFB

BBC reporting the soldiers were sleeping when NATO attacked ....is this true?


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## Always Neutral

Drawn_Sword_of_God said:


> nevertheless, the NATO rats have no excuse for this, because it had happened earlier as well. you have to be a complete retard if you dont see the difference between Taliban and Pakistani soldiers and our checkpoints are nothing like their. this proves how incapable the nato rats are and possible trigger happy junkies as well shooting at their target without having full confirmation of who the targets are. The checkpoints were there for taliban, but this incident says something else. We should arm the soldiers with bigger firepower so the next time these nato rats try something funny they will learn a lesson



If you have the inquiry report please share the same with us? You have a right to be angry but let the report come out. what if a PA soldier actually fired on the helo? what if PA never told NATO of this post?


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## Pioneerfirst

this is a part of solution but not the complete solution for us.We should even stop our intellegence sharing with NATO and ISAF.We should become completely neutral to Afghan issue.We should neither cooperate with NATO,ISAF and USA and similarly we should not cooperate with Taliban in any way.
If we follow this I can ensure that by 2014 NATO and USA will leave and Taliban will also feel punch and we will be in peace.

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## Devil Soul

Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths
It is "highly likely" that Nato aircraft were behind a deadly overnight raid on a Pakistani border checkpoint, a Nato spokesman has told the BBC.

Brigadier-General Carsten Jacobson said Nato was investigating how the incident occurred and sent condolences.

Pakistani officials have responded with fury to the incident, which they say killed at least 24 soldiers.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani called it "outrageous" and convened an emergency meeting of the cabinet.

Pakistan's government promptly closed supply routes across its territory to Nato in Afghanistan. There are reports of some trucks on the main routes being told to turn back.

Investigation
The night-time attack took place at the Salala checkpoint, about 1.5 miles (2.5 km) from the Afghan border, at around 02:00 local time (21:00 GMT).

Gen Jacobson said a combined force of Afghan and Nato troops were in the area when "a tactical situation developed on the ground" - though he gave no more details.

He said close air support was called in, and "we're aware it's highly likely this caused casualties".

He said it was a high priority for Nato to "find out what happened".
BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

Always Neutral said:


> If you have the inquiry report please share the same with us? You have a right to be angry but let the report come out. what if a PA soldier actually fired on the helo? what if PA never told NATO of this post?


there will be more info coming soon. but this has happened several times before, there have been a few incidents where british soldiers were killed by americans. and why would the pak soldier fire on the heli when he has no weapon that can possibly bring down a heli easily. pak soldiers arent stupid and dont take stupid risks


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> Says who? Why would do a deliberate attack when our supply lines pass thru your country. Why would we make Gen. Kiyani's already difficult job impossible? Please don't be gullible as some Indians here and TTP supporters would like you to be. If the good Taliban control 80% of the AFg country side than TTP would not survive even one day in AFg.



What do you mean by says who? Please don't try to play so innocent here. You would because you people are convinced that Pakistan Army is the real cause for your failure in Afghanistan. And this is not a secret!


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

Green Hornet said:


> By the way, what is chinese reaction to this event??
> 
> They should react to this american killings of pakistani soldiers. How the hell can they see pakistani soldiers getting killed by americans??
> 
> What happened to the famed china-pakistan all weather friendship?? China should start attacking american installations near ****** border.


i dont even...
what the hell are you on? this is a problem between pakistan and nato. not india, not china or a unicorn. just nato and pakistan


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## khanz4996

WE HAVE THE BIGGEST BEGHAIRAT BRIGADE ON PDF.I BET WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO US IF ARE INVADED ON A FULL SCALE FROM 2 SIDE NORTH AND SOUTH.STILL THE BEGHAIRAT BRIGADE WILL SAY WAR IS NO OPTION AS THE ENEMY IS TOO POWERFUL HUH PAKISTAN AUR PAKISTANIYO KA KHUDA HAFIZ.WE SHOULD TAKE ACTION BEFORE ITS TOO LATE LOOK AT THE EGYPTIONS THEY HAVE MORE GHAIRAT THEN US WE SHOULD TAKE THOSE NUKES AND SHOVE IT UP GEN KIYANI ***

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## Green Hornet

Always Neutral said:


> VERBAL FART OF THE DAY.



Thank you.


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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> What do you mean by says who? Please don't try to play so innocent here. You would because you people are convinced that Pakistan Army is the real cause for your failure in Afghanistan. And this is not a secret!



What is there to be innocent of? A US chopper killed a few of our men in Afg too so does that mean US is not trusting us too?


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## Frankenstein

Now after some time Hollywood is gonna make movies showing Americans as heroes in such incidents, mofos

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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

Frankenstein said:


> Now after some time Hollywood is gonna make movies showing Americans as heroes in such incidents, mofos


so true, and when they get back to America they will all receive medals for this "heroic" act


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## Dance

Apparently the Chaman checkpoint is still open and Dawn news was showing tankers going into afghanistan.

So much for closing the borders

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## regular

PakShaheen79 said:


> BullSh1*
> 
> This check post of Salala is on US/NATO maps. Many flag meetings have been held here in the past. And it is not a small post. It is compnay HQ of PA company that cleared Baizai area from TTP militants and pushed them into Afghanistan. Now this check post was the real hurdle in TTP's return into Pakistani areas.
> 
> Should i say anything more .... to prove that it was a deliberate ATTACK!


Yes! sir 200% right about that...
that was very deliberate and intentional attack...These pplz were not ready to take any bribes from the US/NATO secret agents to go against our country thats why they attacked and killed them....these soldiers were sincere for their country and nation scarificed everything they had.....a great praise and gratitude for their selfless services/sacrifice to our nation/country.....


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

admitting is not enough, getting what is deserve is what matters
i hope the one who gave the orders for this suffer


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## Awesome

*Revenge Motive theorized for removing Haqqani, CIA's main man for Pakistani operations*


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## Jango

Rafael said:


> National Tv is reporting that the attacks were not a mistake rather they were intentional.
> 
> Lets wait for more details on this.



Yeah, sources from the PTV said that it was not a mistake, it was intentional.

And we all know PTV sources are high ups.

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------




Dance said:


> Apparently the Chaman checkpoint is still open and Dawn news was showing tankers going into afghanistan.
> 
> So much for closing the borders



Nope my man, the border is closed and nothing is passing through. The army is taking a very strong stand on this.


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## Dance

nuclearpak said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Nope my man, the border is closed and nothing is passing through. The army is taking a very strong stand on this.



As of a couple of hours it was shown as being open on Dawn news, they might have closed it since then.


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## Jango

Dance said:


> As of a couple of hours it was shown as being open on Dawn news, they might have closed it since then.



Was it live or old video?

It has been closed now though.


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## regular

Allah karray keh Border US/NATO supplies keh liyay permanent close ho jayay.....Insha-Allah....

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## *Awan*

> A report on ARY news read as following.
> 
> The Pak Army company (which was targetted in this attack) had recently expelled a group named Abu Hammam of TTP from the area. The commander of the group fled to Afghanistan and was caught by ISAF. The commander gave the location of the Company Headquarter as his TTP headquarter, and the ISAF attacked.
> 
> Highly unlikely though.


don't expect something good from this foreign funded media other than confusing the nation.


i have not seen such a eunuch as a coas before kiyani.why he did not kick this zardari begharat govt.i hope our sindihs brother have mercy on us.

-we should come out of this war on terror thing.
-use 0 tolerance policy regarding sovereignty violation.
-cut off supplies permanently
-send ssg people to bring head of nato soldiers.no of heads = soldiers died.
or 
ask isi to insert bamboo in nato @ss

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## W.11

these jokers in nato knew and persued a plan to kill the soldiers, it doesnt make sense that the copter killed 24 of ours and the head didnt know about this

the question is why they intentionally killed our soldiers and what is their motive


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## Dance

nuclearpak said:


> Was it live or old video?
> 
> It has been closed now though.



Well it was supposed to be live. 

But anyways lets hope that the border is closed and that it stays that way.

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## Peregrine

KarachiPunk said:


> the question is why they intentionally killed our soldiers and what is their motive


Nooooo..... The question is "what this brave Fauj of Pakistan, gonna do about it"


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## Jango

Nomi965 said:


> don't expect something good from this foreign funded media other than confusing the nation.
> 
> 
> i have not seen such a eunuch as a coas before kiyani.why he did not kick this zardari begharat govt.i hope our sindihs brother have mercy on us.
> 
> -we should come out of this war on terror thing.
> -use 0 tolerance policy regarding sovereignty violation.
> -cut off supplies permanently
> -send ssg people to bring head of nato soldiers.no of heads = soldiers died.
> or
> ask isi to insert bamboo in nato @ss



Good thing you are not incharge of affairs.!

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## luckyyy

*Gen Jacobson said a combined force of Afghan and Nato troops were in the area when "a tactical situation developed on the ground" - though he gave no more details.
.*

means that Afghan and Nato troops were angaged in a fight gainst pakistani troops , so, Nato troops called for a air support..


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## regular

everybody in NATO knew from the top to the bottom.... we need to get blood money amounting at least 100million $US for the families suffered plus damages for this repurcussions they did to us.plus disciplinary action against the culprits involved...next time they will be careful.........


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## Khan_patriot

**** NATO..........


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## Awesome

Dance said:


> Well it was supposed to be live.
> 
> But anyways lets hope that the border is closed and that it stays that way.



Apology is not enough, the US needs to handover people who carried out this killing.

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## subanday

nuclearpak, isnt nomi965 right?


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## Irfan Baloch

regular said:


> At least they shold get one Cobra for each dead and one million dollar US to each of the deceased family anf half million$ for the injured otherwise no cooporation or ally business anymore....



please dont post any more today

how old are you by the way?
I dont mean to insult you but please give a thought to what you are writing. do you think dollars can payback the murder of these soldiers?

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## Jango

subanday said:


> nuclearpak, isnt nomi965 right?



some of his points are wrong, some right.

---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------




Asim Aquil said:


> Apology is not enough, the US needs to handover people who carried out this killing.



An apology is definitely not enough.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bill Longley said:


> *In era of GPS and GPRS its impossible that NATO did not know the position of Our Post. I think govt should give orders to shoot down hostile heli's if they cross limits. Shoot down 1 or two heli's they will behave. but with this Passive approch only result of hue and cry will be an apology over loss of Life by NATO and case close*


Outside of an apology by Obama, the other heads of State from NATO and their military leadership, nothing will suffice, in my opinion at least.


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## Jango

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Outside of an apology by Obama, the other heads of State from NATO and their military leadership, nothing will suffice, in my opinion at least.



Which country did it BTW?


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Apology is not enough, the US needs to handover people who carried out this killing.



Let the facts be established first.

There are reports of fire originating from non-NATO forces first. Air support was called in only as a response. The whole incident needs to be investigated, as I am sure it will be, thoroughly. An apology, if and when made, will never be enough to replace the precious lives lost. There needs to be more effort at PREVENTING such tragedies from happening.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

luckyyy said:


> *Gen Jacobson said a combined force of Afghan and Nato troops were in the area when "a tactical situation developed on the ground" - though he gave no more details.
> .*
> 
> means that Afghan and Nato troops were angaged in a fight gainst pakistani troops , so, Nato troops called for a air support..


Their commanders should have realized that they were in the vicinity of Pakistani check-posts and withdraw their troops, rather than escalating the situation and calling for airstrikes.

The individuals responsible for making that decision to escalate the situation and conduct air strikes should be held accountable and disciplined publicly.

Bloody murderers and terrorists.


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## Dance

Asim Aquil said:


> Apology is not enough, the US needs to handover people who carried out this killing.



No, apology is not enough but this is Pakistan. 

What will probably wind up happening is that America/Nato will give a weak apology (meaning they'll give cash/bribes to the government) and then the government will give "harsh" statements and then try to bury the issue. Everyone will forget it about it until something similar like this happens again.Its a vicious cycle that always occurs whenever something catastrophic happens in Pakistan.


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## Safriz

no matter if they apologize or not..they cannot be trusted anymore.....anza should be deployed along the borders and and intruding plane shoukd be shot down..
better still a squadron of PAF dedicated to kill on sight any intruding plane from afghanistan side/


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Let the facts be established first.
> 
> There are reports of fire originating from non-NATO forces first. Air support was called in only as a response. The whole incident needs to be investigated, as I am sure it will be, thoroughly. An apology, if and when made, will never be enough to replace the precious lives lost. There needs to be more effort at PREVENTING such tragedies from happening.



Yup, a clash erupted near the border, things got out of control, air-strike was called in, and the pilots somehow screwed it up. Could they possibly not see a Company Headquarter, and distinguish it with a combat zone in which the ISAF troops were.

---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------




safriz said:


> no matter if they apologize or not..they cannot be trusted anymore.....anza should be deployed along the borders and and intruding plane shoukd be shot down..
> better still a squadron of PAF dedicated to kill on sight any intruding plane from afghanistan side/



Unless one of their helis is shot, nothing will happen. They will not dare do anything if they get some losses as well.


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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> Yup, a clash erupted near the border, things got out of control, air-strike was called in, and the pilots somehow screwed it up. Could they possibly not see a Company Headquarter, and distinguish it with a combat zone in which the ISAF troops were.



Like I said: *Let the facts be established first before any conclusions can be drawn.*


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## W.11

VCheng said:


> Let the facts be established first.
> 
> There are reports of fire originating from non-NATO forces first. Air support was called in only as a response. The whole incident needs to be investigated, as I am sure it will be, thoroughly. An apology, if and when made, will never be enough to replace the precious lives lost. There needs to be more effort at PREVENTING such tragedies from happening.



bhai sahab, the soldeirs were sleeping, when they were killed

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## American Pakistani

Mike2011 said:


> I think pakistan is paid for NATO supply. Pakistan will be looser if it shuts for longer period. NATO will find alternative route and pakistan will be of no use. Whatever economy runs on WOT will also die.



Pakistan is paid nothing for this supply, only aid comes in the name of Pakistan & that too goes into bank accounts of elites & rulers & that also in switzerland, dubai & UK. Pakistan is sole looser, it lost $70billion to economy, lost huge infrastructure, lost 40000 civilians, lost 4-6k troops, lost FDI, lost buisness, etc etc & in the end terrorist kill Pakistanis & coalition forces too kill Pakistanis & after all this massive lost, both accuse Pakistan of playing double game. US who is called Pakistan ally, openly talks about the aid in world areena, that it has given for corrupt rulers & elites(to remain in office), infact that money taken in the name of Pakistan has never been spend in Pakistan.


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Like I said: *Let the facts be established first before any conclusions can be drawn.*



Yeah, most probably.

But I still fail to comprehend how did they make such a blunder. A heli pilot in my family as well, and after a conversation with him, I find it difficult that they mistook the place. Criminal negligence I must say.


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## regular

Irfan Baloch said:


> please dont post any more today
> 
> how old are you by the way?
> I dont mean to insult you but please give a thought to what you are writing. do you think dollars can payback the murder of these soldiers?


Sir! I understand what u say ..it won't bring back the pplz been killed but our elites gonna take money and forget everything...what U think they gonna do....do they have anything in their hand to do .....or do we have anything in our hand...except to cry in shame and forget everything with the passage of time....isn't it so shameful for us now......


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## W.11

safriz said:


> no matter if they apologize or not..they cannot be trusted anymore.....anza should be deployed along the borders and and intruding plane shoukd be shot down..
> better still a squadron of PAF dedicated to kill on sight any intruding plane from afghanistan side/


 
anzas are not enough, its time to deploy missiles and babur now, because situation has worsened, no country would tolerate border violation and its whole unit being killed with going out for full fledged war


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## Irfan Baloch

Asim Aquil said:


> Apology is not enough, the US needs to handover people who carried out this killing.





do you know what? the conversation during the shooting will be very revealing and shocking. I hope it is leaked before it is erased.
I am aware of a customary return fire. Pakistanis normally fire ahead of the helicopter path with tracers showing them that they are intruding and the NATO helis do a customary one or 2 short bursts in the air saying yea we hear you and fly back

but here it seems they must have made many passes and fired a salvo of rockets and their autocanons to actually take out the check post.


I am once again highlighting the need for the flight path / fight log which will tell us what was their initial mission, did they come here planned? did they deviate? how much? and what was their conversation with their command while engaging.

our check posts are clearly marked and their information given to the NATO and they have Pakistani flags too so its impossible that they can miss all this.

what a waste of life of the soldier. killed by a supposed "ally" that&#8217;s what really hurts. if it was an attack by taliban it wouldn&#8217;t have hurt that much. Indeed the loss of life in either case is saddening but it worse when its done by someone who you are helping out.

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## foxbat

safriz said:


> no matter if they apologize or not..they cannot be trusted anymore.....anza should be deployed along the borders and and intruding plane shoukd be shot down..
> better still a squadron of PAF dedicated to kill on sight any intruding plane from afghanistan side/



The intent is no doubt correct.. But the capability of doing this is unfortunately missing in Pakistani Armed forces.. So other means will have to be sought


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## Jango

Mike2011 said:


> I think pakistan is paid for NATO supply. Pakistan will be looser if it shuts for longer period. NATO will find alternative route and pakistan will be of no use. Whatever economy runs on WOT will also die.



Total losses= 70 Bilion $

Total aid received = 10 Billion $.

Do the math.


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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> Yup, a clash erupted near the border, things got out of control, air-strike was called in, and the pilots somehow screwed it up. Could they possibly not see a Company Headquarter, and distinguish it with a combat zone in which the ISAF troops were.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Unless one of their helis is shot, nothing will happen. They will not dare do anything if they get some losses as well.


 
There could be many reasons, Don't forget that the PA bombed their own troops and killed 13 in the heat of action sometime back. We do not know the circumstances yet.

Maybe this was a new location of the PA whose position was wrongly reported by the spotters?

Its happened before and may happen again.


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## VCheng

KarachiPunk said:


> bhai sahab, the soldeirs were sleeping, when they were killed.



I never said the soldiers who were killed fired first. This is exactly why the FACTS need to be established first.


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## K-Xeroid

*We need to react solidly now otherwise things will carry on..........*


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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> do you know what? the conversation during the shooting will be very revealing and shocking. I hope it is leaked before it is erased.
> I am aware of a customary return fire. Pakistanis normally fire ahead of the helicopter path with tracers showing them that they are intruding and the NATO helis do a customary one or 2 short bursts in the air saying yea we hear you and fly back
> 
> but here it seems they must have made many passes and fired a salvo of rockets and their autocanons to actually take out the check post.
> 
> 
> I am once again highlighting the need for the flight path / fight log which will tell us what was their initial mission, did they come here planned? did they deviate? how much? and what was their conversation with their command while engaging.
> 
> our check posts are clearly marked and their information given to the NATO and they have Pakistani flags too so its impossible that they can miss all this.
> 
> what a waste of life of the soldier. killed by a supposed "ally" that&#8217;s what really hurts. if it was an attack by taliban it wouldn&#8217;t have hurt that much. Indeed the loss of life in either case is saddening but it worse when its done by someone who you are helping out.


It was not check post respected mod. It was a Company Headquarter. According to officials, numerous meetings between ISAF and Pak Army were held at that point.

The helicopter logs, data recorders, flight logs, voice recorders etc will be interesting.


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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah, most probably.
> 
> But I still fail to comprehend how did they make such a blunder. A heli pilot in my family as well, and after a conversation with him, I find it difficult that they mistook the place. Criminal negligence I must say.



Than what would you say about this incident

BBC News - Pakistan army shell kills troops in battle with Taliban

*At least 13 Pakistani soldiers have been killed by one of their own mortar shells during a battle with Taliban militants in the north-west*


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## American Pakistani

Pakistan MUST demand NATO & UNO for handing over those murderers & the thugs who send them & start trial in Pakistan. Pakistan Army will loose support of Awam if it repeat same old drama of cutting supply for just a week & apology & some bribe comes & than every thing normal again.

25 is huge huge number, if PA & govt do nothing than media & awam must join hand & come on streets. This is intolerable.


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## American Pakistani

Pakistan MUST demand NATO & UNO for handing over those murderers & the thugs who send them & start trial in Pakistan. Pakistan Army will loose support of Awam if it repeat same old drama of cutting supply for just a week & apology & some bribe comes & than every thing normal again.

25 is huge huge number, if PA & govt do nothing than media & awam must join hand & come on streets. This is intolerable.


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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> There could be many reasons, Don't forget that the PA bombed their own troops and killed 13 in the heat of action sometime back. We do not know the circumstances yet.
> 
> Maybe this was a new location of the PA whose position was wrongly reported by the spotters?
> 
> Its happened before and may happen again.



It was not a new post. it was a pretty old post there. Things like these did not happen before, this was prolonged firing.


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## Dance

Pakistan: NATO Attack Killed 24 Soldiers​
A predawn attack by North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces Saturday killed at least 24 Pakistani soldiers and injured 13 others, the Pakistani military said, adding further stress to the U.S.'s troubled relationship with Pakistan and complicating efforts to push forward peace talks with the Taliban.

Pakistan's army reacted angrily, calling the "unprovoked" raid on two Pakistani border posts an "irresponsible act." The army said NATO helicopters and fighter aircraft, under the cover of darkness, had bombed the posts in Mohmand tribal region, a lawless border area that which abuts Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province.

"Pakistan's sovereignty was attacked early this morning," said Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani. "This is our Pakistan and we have to defend it."

In retaliation, Pakistan's security forces began to turn back scores of Pakistani-owned trucks that carry NATO supplies into Afghanistan.



The U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan said it was looking into the latest Pakistani claim. The incident took place hours after Gen. John R. Allen, the coalition commander, met with government officials and army officers in Pakistan to discuss border issues.

"This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts," said Gen. Allen. "My most sincere and personal heartfelt condolences go out to the families and loved ones of any members of Pakistan Security Forces who may have been killed or injured."

The U.S. claims Pakistan, while waging a three-year-old war against militants in the tribal regions, has continued to shelter some factions of the Taliban as a way to maintain influence inside Afghanistan after most international troops leave in 2014. U.S. military officials say NATO troops have repeatedly come under attack from Taliban forces based over the border and have urged Pakistan to do more about militants in its tribal regions.

But President Barack Obama's administration is also nudging Pakistan to use its influence over the Taliban, which Pakistan's military helped create in the 1990s, to bring them to the negotiating table to end the 10-year war in Afghanistan. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton brought this dual message to Pakistan during a visit to Islamabad, the capital, in October, asking for stepped-up military action on Pakistan's side of the border but promising to keep Pakistan fully abreast of developments in Afghanistan, including nascent peace talks.

Pakistan's army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, faced with growing anti-U.S. sentiment, deepened by incidents like the one on Saturday, faces limited room to accede to any U.S. demands at the moment, said Talat Masood, a retired general and defense analyst.

"Those who have been more moderate, even those people are asking is it worth having a relationship with the U.S.," Mr. Masood said. "It will be very difficult for Gen. Kayani to defend the alliance."

Mr. Masood said he had taped a television chat show Saturday after the attack on the border posts during which he was the only participant arguing the U.S. wouldn't have targeted Pakistani soldiers in Mohmand as a deliberate act of aggression.

Western diplomats in Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, said Saturday the raid is likely to hurt efforts to get Pakistan to play a significant role in forging peace talks, which are expected to take center stage at an international conference on Afghanistan to be held in Bonn, Germany, next month.



U.S. and Afghan officials say Pakistan continues to hold sway over the Taliban group controlled by Mullah Mohammed Omar, believed to be based in the western Pakistani city of Quetta, and the Haqqani faction, which shelters in North Waziristan, a Pakistani tribal region on the Afghan border. Pakistan denies this and blames the U.S.'s war in Afghanistan for sparking a war on its side of the border in which more than 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have died.

*Few observers, though, expect a complete breakdown in relations. Pakistan might close its borders for a few days, temporarily hurting NATO's supply chain, but the country will continue to rely on billions of dollars in military and civilian aid from the U.S. Washington, likewise, needs Pakistan to keep up pressure on Taliban militants in the tribal region, and as a supply route, as it tries to work out an exit strategy from Afghanistan.

"This is a need-based relationship. It will have its temporary hiccup, probably in the form of the suspension of NATO cargo," said Imtiaz Gul, director of the Center for Research and Security Studies, an Islamabad-based think-tank.*

In September 2010, a NATO helicopter attack on a Pakistani border post in the tribal regions killed two soldiers. Pakistan closed traffic for NATO convoys for a few days but later reopened the route. The U.S., wary of its part-time ally, begun moving more supplies for Afghanistan through Central Asia. The Pakistan land route, from the port city of Karachi across country to two major borders with Afghanistan, still accounts for roughly half of NATO supplies coming in to Afghanistan.

Since that incident, which blew over, the U.S.-Pakistan relationship has deteriorated. Pakistan' army was embarrassed and angered by the covert raid by U.S. Navy SEALs in May that killed Osama bin Laden in a Pakistani army garrison town. That came after a Central Intelligence Agency contractor shot dead two armed men in Lahore in January and was briefly jailed.

Just last week, Pakistan's ambassador to the U.S. was forced to resign amid allegations he had sought Washington's help to reduce the power of Pakistan's army, which plays a large role in domestic politics.

Pakistan's army, in response to growing anti-U.S. feeling, has began to more forcibly challenge the U.S. in public, including attacking Washington's policy of stepped-up unmanned drone strikes against Taliban targets in the tribal regions.

Pakistan: NATO Attack Killed 24 Soldiers - WSJ.com


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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> It was not check post respected mod. *It was a Company Headquarter. According to officials, numerous meetings between ISAF and Pak Army were held at that point.*
> 
> The helicopter logs, data recorders, flight logs, voice recorders etc will be interesting.



If what you say is true than ISPR must immediately release these details and it will be very hard for the NATO to refute, till than stop speculating.


----------



## pakdefender

Pakistan's salvation is in confronting the enemy forces openly with public backing and also to block the enemy's life lines which shockingly runs thorough our own territory.

There is a very serious and urgent need of re-alignment in terms of the co-operation between Pakistan and the killers under the guise of ISAF/NATO/USA.


----------



## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> Than what would you say about this incident
> 
> BBC News - Pakistan army shell kills troops in battle with Taliban
> 
> *At least 13 Pakistani soldiers have been killed by one of their own mortar shells during a battle with Taliban militants in the north-west*



Yeah so. This was also criminal negligence, and action had been taken , and the culprits were brought to justice. And that was within the warzone, a limited theater.

This was a violation of borders, and shelling of a Company Headquarter.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------




Always Neutral said:


> If what you say is true than ISPR must immediately release these details and it will be very hard for the NATO to refute, till than stop speculating.


 
What should ISPR release.

It is an established fact that meetings took place there, although not of the top level, but meetings between local CO's and officers did take place.

I am not speculating anything.

And the post was not new. Again, an established fact. And it was a Company HeadQuarter, and the company was instrumental to flushing the terrorists out of that area.


----------



## rohailmalhi

Inaniallah hay wainallahay rajioon................. may the souls of departed rest in Peace.Ameen

What are our ******* generals doing , licking the balls of Americans........and they are killing our soldiers and what are we doing. Stoping their supplies for 1 day or 2 .....................What the fish is going is this ,r are slaves or what.

We claim to be a free nation and hence our sovereignty is challenged every once in a while ,and these decision makers seem not worried about that.

Send a slear message to NATO troops , u f++k with us we will f++k u upside down , kill our soldiers and we will kill urs in return ,Do it once just once and see these drones attack stopped , and these once in while attack on our soldiers .When are we going to make a stand .......................................

I will pray that the kids of some decision makers get killed by Nato and i will see how will they respond to it.


----------



## pakdefender

Basically it has come down to now or never , if we dont confront them now , slowly we'll be driven into the ground and they'll happily pull an Iraq , afghanistan or libya type attack against us and justfy it in their own perverted way.


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## American Pakistani




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## Awesome

Karzai condemns NATO airstrike - TwinCities.com

Notice that Nato bombed Afghan children yesterday. 

Gen John Allen is the one who needs to be investigated. His sadistic techniques went unnoticed until much later in the Iraq war for which he got promoted in the US military.


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## Always Neutral

[ 
What should ISPR release.

It is an established fact that meetings took place there, although not of the top level, but meetings between local CO's and officers did take place.

I am not speculating anything.

And the post was not new. Again, an established fact. And it was a Company HeadQuarter, and the company was instrumental to flushing the terrorists out of that area.[/QUOTE]

*You have implied NATO officers met PA officers at this post. Anybody with any knowledge of the Army knows all such meetings are recorded and minutes forwarded to higher formations. I doubt the ISPR will be so quiet if your facts are right.*


----------



## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

so did any one resigned?

TARIQ


----------



## American Pakistani

Imran condemns Nato attack on Pakistani checkpost
Submitted 19 mins ago 

Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) Chairman Imran Khan has strongly condemned the Nato airstrike on a military checkpost in Mohmand Agency and said that the attack was not carried out by Pakistan&#8217;s enemies instead it was launched by its ally. He was addressing a public gathering in Shujabad. Khan said that the so-called war against terror was launched by a man who was greedy of dollars. He added that the war unleashed suicide blasts and act of terrorism in Pakistan. &#8220;I have told seven years ago that the war on terror does not belong to Pakistan,&#8221; he said and added there was no military solution to the militancy. &#8220;Now the time has come for government to withdraw from the war,&#8221; the cricketer-turned politician said.


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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> [
> What should ISPR release.
> 
> It is an established fact that meetings took place there, although not of the top level, but meetings between local CO's and officers did take place.
> 
> I am not speculating anything.
> 
> And the post was not new. Again, an established fact. And it was a Company HeadQuarter, and the company was instrumental to flushing the terrorists out of that area.



*You have implied NATO officers met PA officers at this post. Anybody with any knowledge of the Army knows all such meetings are recorded and minutes forwarded to higher formations. I doubt the ISPR will be so quiet if your facts are right.*[/QUOTE]

What are you saying? No meetings took place until the ISPR says that it happened?


----------



## American Pakistani

Dance said:


> Pakistan: NATO Attack Killed 24 Soldiers​
> A predawn attack by North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces Saturday killed at least 24 Pakistani soldiers and injured 13 others, the Pakistani military said, adding further stress to the U.S.'s troubled relationship with Pakistan and complicating efforts to push forward peace talks with the Taliban.
> 
> Pakistan's army reacted angrily, calling the "unprovoked" raid on two Pakistani border posts an "irresponsible act." The army said NATO helicopters and fighter aircraft, under the cover of darkness, had bombed the posts in Mohmand tribal region, a lawless border area that which abuts Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province.
> 
> "Pakistan's sovereignty was attacked early this morning," said Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani. "This is our Pakistan and we have to defend it."
> 
> In retaliation, Pakistan's security forces began to turn back scores of Pakistani-owned trucks that carry NATO supplies into Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan said it was looking into the latest Pakistani claim. The incident took place hours after Gen. John R. Allen, the coalition commander, met with government officials and army officers in Pakistan to discuss border issues.
> 
> "This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts," said Gen. Allen. "My most sincere and personal heartfelt condolences go out to the families and loved ones of any members of Pakistan Security Forces who may have been killed or injured."
> 
> The U.S. claims Pakistan, while waging a three-year-old war against militants in the tribal regions, has continued to shelter some factions of the Taliban as a way to maintain influence inside Afghanistan after most international troops leave in 2014. U.S. military officials say NATO troops have repeatedly come under attack from Taliban forces based over the border and have urged Pakistan to do more about militants in its tribal regions.
> 
> But President Barack Obama's administration is also nudging Pakistan to use its influence over the Taliban, which Pakistan's military helped create in the 1990s, to bring them to the negotiating table to end the 10-year war in Afghanistan. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton brought this dual message to Pakistan during a visit to Islamabad, the capital, in October, asking for stepped-up military action on Pakistan's side of the border but promising to keep Pakistan fully abreast of developments in Afghanistan, including nascent peace talks.
> 
> Pakistan's army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, faced with growing anti-U.S. sentiment, deepened by incidents like the one on Saturday, faces limited room to accede to any U.S. demands at the moment, said Talat Masood, a retired general and defense analyst.
> 
> "Those who have been more moderate, even those people are asking is it worth having a relationship with the U.S.," Mr. Masood said. "It will be very difficult for Gen. Kayani to defend the alliance."
> 
> Mr. Masood said he had taped a television chat show Saturday after the attack on the border posts during which he was the only participant arguing the U.S. wouldn't have targeted Pakistani soldiers in Mohmand as a deliberate act of aggression.
> 
> Western diplomats in Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, said Saturday the raid is likely to hurt efforts to get Pakistan to play a significant role in forging peace talks, which are expected to take center stage at an international conference on Afghanistan to be held in Bonn, Germany, next month.
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. and Afghan officials say Pakistan continues to hold sway over the Taliban group controlled by Mullah Mohammed Omar, believed to be based in the western Pakistani city of Quetta, and the Haqqani faction, which shelters in North Waziristan, a Pakistani tribal region on the Afghan border. Pakistan denies this and blames the U.S.'s war in Afghanistan for sparking a war on its side of the border in which more than 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have died.
> 
> *Few observers, though, expect a complete breakdown in relations. Pakistan might close its borders for a few days, temporarily hurting NATO's supply chain, but the country will continue to rely on billions of dollars in military and civilian aid from the U.S. Washington, likewise, needs Pakistan to keep up pressure on Taliban militants in the tribal region, and as a supply route, as it tries to work out an exit strategy from Afghanistan.
> 
> "This is a need-based relationship. It will have its temporary hiccup, probably in the form of the suspension of NATO cargo," said Imtiaz Gul, director of the Center for Research and Security Studies, an Islamabad-based think-tank.*
> 
> In September 2010, a NATO helicopter attack on a Pakistani border post in the tribal regions killed two soldiers. Pakistan closed traffic for NATO convoys for a few days but later reopened the route. The U.S., wary of its part-time ally, begun moving more supplies for Afghanistan through Central Asia. The Pakistan land route, from the port city of Karachi across country to two major borders with Afghanistan, still accounts for roughly half of NATO supplies coming in to Afghanistan.
> 
> Since that incident, which blew over, the U.S.-Pakistan relationship has deteriorated. Pakistan' army was embarrassed and angered by the covert raid by U.S. Navy SEALs in May that killed Osama bin Laden in a Pakistani army garrison town. That came after a Central Intelligence Agency contractor shot dead two armed men in Lahore in January and was briefly jailed.
> 
> Just last week, Pakistan's ambassador to the U.S. was forced to resign amid allegations he had sought Washington's help to reduce the power of Pakistan's army, which plays a large role in domestic politics.
> 
> Pakistan's army, in response to growing anti-U.S. feeling, has began to more forcibly challenge the U.S. in public, including attacking Washington's policy of stepped-up unmanned drone strikes against Taliban targets in the tribal regions.
> 
> Pakistan: NATO Attack Killed 24 Soldiers - WSJ.com



The figure has reached 28 now.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

KarachiPunk said:


> bhai sahab, the soldeirs were sleeping, when they were killed


Bhai sahib, in the case of 'US/Western mistakes/atrocities' the 'facts must be clearly established first', but of course when it comes to unsubstantiated allegations against Pakistan, no one gives a hoot about 'establishing facts'.

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## Jango

nuclearpak said:


> *You have implied NATO officers met PA officers at this post. Anybody with any knowledge of the Army knows all such meetings are recorded and minutes forwarded to higher formations. I doubt the ISPR will be so quiet if your facts are right.*



What are you saying? No meetings took place until the ISPR says that it happened? And I have knowledge of the army my friend.

Meetings are recorded, and they are documented.


----------



## Dance

*Imran asks rulers to end alliance in war on terror*​
ISLAMABAD: Pakista Tehrik-i-Insaf (PTI) Chief Imran Khan on Saturday strongly condemned the unprovoked Nato attack on Salala Check Post in the Momand Agency and called upon civilian leadership to immediately withdraw from its alliance from US-led war against terrorism.

While terming the attack as an insane and immoral brutality, Khan said such attacks reflected the hollowness and counter-productivity of Pakistans involvement in the aimless war on terror that had been unleashed to subdue the proud people of the region.

The PTI chief was speaking to a public gathering in Shujaabad.

He said Pakistan had already sacrificed 40,000 people and an equal number of people had been maimed and become handicapped. Pakistan had also incurred a loss of over $75 billion in the bargain, yet it was being incessantly targeted by the forces of its so-called ally, he added.

The PTI chief said that the government had failed to safeguard Pakistans security and strategic interests because of the compromises it had made under the National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) with foreign forces to come to power in the country.

He said government did not have the moral stature to stand up for defending Pakistans strategic interests and should, therefore, quit immediately.

Imran Khan said that Pakistans involvement in the war had radicalised its society and was also breeding anti-Americanism.

Time has come for the government to pull out of this inhuman conflict and initiate a purposeful dialogue to bring peace to the country and the region, said the PTI chief. Pakistans continued involvement in this war would only produce more militancy and destruction, he added.


http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/26/imran-asks-rulers-to-end-alliance-in-war-on-terror.html

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## Jango

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Bhai sahib, in the case of 'US/Western mistakes/atrocities' the 'facts must be clearly established first', but of course when it comes to unsubstantiated allegations against Pakistan, *no one gives a hoot about 'establishing facts'.*



Cruel world eh?

---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 PM ----------




American Pakistani said:


> The figure has reached 28 now.



13 injured as well.


----------



## American Pakistani

*Pak summons US envoy over NATO attack*

In the latest blow to US-Pak relationship, a NATO helicopter has fired on two Pakistani border checkpoints killing 25 soldiers including 2 officers. Pakistan has responded by summoning the US envoy to Pakistan to lodge a strong protest with the NATO and shut the Torkham border crossing to NATO. The border crossing is a key supply route for NATO.

Reports indicate that the two border posts which were attacked by the NATO helicopters, were a 100 ft apart. A statement from the Pakistani military blamed NATO copters for carrying out &#8220;unprovoked and indiscriminate firing.&#8221;

The attacked checkpoints were set up recently to stop Pakistani Taliban from attacking the Pakistani forces from across the border. Pakistan has criticized Afghan security forces saying they have not done enough to stop the attacks.

US-Pak relationship has been going downhill ever since US launched a covert operation to kill Osama bin Laden in Abbotabad without telling Pakistani authorities.

The two sides have been engaged in a war of words that have only escalated in recent months. Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen had accused Pakistan of covertly supporting militants who have been attacking NATO forces in Afghanistan.

He said Pakistan has either been supporting these militants directly or has been turning a blind eye to militants who launch attacks from its territories. The US has also been talking about an inordinate amount of fire from the Pakistani side which have been landing near the NATO security forces. The US has also assembled a large amount of troops and heavy weaponry near the border with Pakistan, prompting fears that it wanted to invade the Pakistani North West where militants are supposed to be based.

Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani warned that US should think &#8217;10 times&#8217; before launching an operation on Pakistani soil. Keeping up the pressure from the US side, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in her visit to Islamabad warned Pakistan of the dangers of keeping &#8216;snakes in the backyard.&#8217;

This latest incident seems to be a virtual rewind of the similar incident about a year ago which has resulted in the deaths of two Pakistani soldiers. Then too Pakistan had shut down Torkham, and had demanded a US apology. The border crossing was only reopened when the US formally apologized.

This time the incident is much more deadly, and comes in the wake of already strained relations.


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## W.11

why are these nato supply trucks being kept near the border?? they should be turned away ASAP, there is no poit being in this war or being part of nato supply

those greedy generals should take some honour and be practical


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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> *You have implied NATO officers met PA officers at this post. Anybody with any knowledge of the Army knows all such meetings are recorded and minutes forwarded to higher formations. I doubt the ISPR will be so quiet if your facts are right.*



What are you saying? No meetings took place until the ISPR says that it happened?[/QUOTE]

Well in normal circumstances, it would not be important but after this incident ISPR must provide proof that we were well aware of the location of this so called Company HQ. Your statement carries as much weight as my statement which could be we retaliated after we came under fire from that post.


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## Jango

KarachiPunk said:


> why are these nato supply trucks being kept near the border?? they should be turned away ASAP, there is no poit being in this war or being part of nato supply
> 
> t*hose greedy generals should take some honour and be practical*



Everything is the fault of the generals , eh?


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## Awesome

Real motives behind nato&#39;s cross-border Attacks?(sochta Pakistan,26 Nov 2011) - YouTube


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## Areesh

Dance said:


> *Imran asks rulers to end alliance in &#8216;war on terror&#8217;*​
> ISLAMABAD: Pakista Tehrik-i-Insaf (PTI) Chief Imran Khan on Saturday strongly condemned the unprovoked Nato attack on Salala Check Post in the Momand Agency and called upon civilian leadership to immediately withdraw from its alliance from US-led war against terrorism.
> 
> While terming the attack as an insane and immoral brutality, Khan said such attacks reflected the hollowness and counter-productivity of Pakistan&#8217;s involvement in the aimless &#8216;war on terror&#8217; that had been unleashed to subdue the proud people of the region.
> 
> The PTI chief was speaking to a public gathering in Shujaabad.
> 
> He said Pakistan had already sacrificed 40,000 people and an equal number of people had been maimed and become handicapped. Pakistan had also incurred a loss of over $75 billion in the bargain, yet it was being incessantly targeted by the forces of its so-called &#8216;ally&#8217;, he added.
> 
> The PTI chief said that the government had failed to safeguard Pakistan&#8217;s security and strategic interests because of the compromises it had made under the National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) with foreign forces to come to power in the country.
> 
> He said government did not have the moral stature to stand up for defending Pakistan&#8217;s strategic interests and should, therefore, quit immediately.
> 
> Imran Khan said that Pakistan&#8217;s involvement in the war had radicalised its society and was also breeding anti-Americanism.
> 
> &#8220;Time has come for the government to pull out of this inhuman conflict and initiate a purposeful dialogue to bring peace to the country and the region,&#8221; said the PTI chief. Pakistan&#8217;s continued involvement in this war would only produce more militancy and destruction, he added.
> 
> 
> Imran asks rulers to end alliance in




Now that's more like a real response from Imran. All this condemning and apologizing is a bull****.


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## Lighting_Fighter

My condolences to my pakistani brothers.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Bhai sahib, in the case of 'US/Western mistakes/atrocities' the 'facts must be clearly established first', but of course when it comes to unsubstantiated allegations against Pakistan, no one gives a hoot about 'establishing facts'.



AM: Please read these great words by AA to see why that is so:



> ..................
> 
> "We as Pakistanis are deeply flawed, thats why Americans can come in and wreak the havoc and massacres that they do. Polarization does not happen just because of racism or just because there is suspicion of racism. *When you have no freedom, no representation and no justice, the worst is assumed out of you."
> *


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## Areesh

nuclearpak said:


> Everything is the fault of the generals , eh?



In this case definitely is.


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## American Pakistani

*Pakistan stops NATO supplies after raid kills up to 28*







By Shams Mohmand

YAKKAGHUND, Pakistan | Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:26am EST 

YAKKAGHUND, Pakistan (Reuters) - NATO helicopters and fighter jets attacked two military outposts in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, killing as many as 28 troops and plunging U.S.-Pakistan relations, already deeply frayed, further into crisis.

Pakistan retaliated by shutting down vital NATO supply routes into Afghanistan, used for sending in just under a third of the alliance's supplies.

The attack is the worst single incident of its kind since Pakistan uneasily allied itself with Washington in the days immediately following the September 11, 2001 attacks on U.S. targets.

Relations between the United States and Pakistan, its ally in the war on militancy, have been strained following the killing of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden by U.S. special forces in a raid on the Pakistani garrison town of Abbottabad in May, which Pakistan called a flagrant violation of sovereignty.

A spokesman for NATO-led troops in Afghanistan confirmed that NATO aircraft had been called in to support troops in the area and had probably killed some Pakistani soldiers.

"Close air support was called in, in the development of the tactical situation, and it is what highly likely caused the Pakistan casualties," said General Carsten Jacobson, spokesman for the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).

He added that he could not confirm the number of casualties, but ISAF is investigating the "tragic development."

"We are aware that Pakistani soldiers perished. We don't know the size, the magnitude," he said.

The Pakistani government and military brimmed with fury.

"This is an attack on Pakistan's sovereignty," said Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani. "We will not let any harm come to Pakistan's sovereignty and solidarity."

The Foreign Office said it would take up the matter "in the strongest terms" with NATO and the United States.

The powerful Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, said in a statement issued by the Pakistani military that "all necessary steps be under taken for an effective response to this irresponsible act.

"A strong protest has been launched with NATO/ISAF in which it has been demanded that strong and urgent action be taken against those responsible for this aggression."

Two military officials said that up to *28 troops had been killed and 11 wounded in the attack* on the outposts, about 2.5 km (1.5 miles) from the Afghan border. The Pakistani military said 24 troops were killed and 13 wounded.

EARLY MORNING ATTACK

It remains unclear what exactly happened, but the attack took place around 2 a.m. (2100 GMT) in the Baizai area of Mohmand, where Pakistani troops are fighting Taliban militants.

"Pakistani troops effectively responded immediately in self-defense to NATO/ISAF's aggression with all available weapons," the Pakistani military statement said.

The commander of NATO-led forces in Afghanistan, General John R. Allen, said he had offered his condolences to the family of any Pakistani soldiers who "may have been killed or injured."

The U.S. embassy in Islamabad also offered condolences.

About 40 Pakistani army troops were stationed at the outposts, military sources said. Two officers were reported among the dead.

"The latest attack by NATO forces on our post will have serious repercussions as they without any reasons attacked on our post and killed soldiers asleep," said a senior Pakistani military officer, requesting anonymity.

Reflecting the confusion of war in an ill-defined border area, an Afghan border police official, Edrees Momand, said joint Afghan-NATO troops near the outpost on Saturday morning had detained several militants.

"I am not aware of the casualties on the other side of the border but those we have detained aren't Afghan Taliban," he said, implying they may have been Pakistani or other foreign national Taliban operating in Afghanistan.

The Afghanistan-Pakistan border is often poorly marked, and Afghan and Pakistani maps have differences of several kilometers in some places, military officials have said.

However Pakistani military spokesman Major-General Athar Abbas said that NATO had been given maps of the area, with Pakistani military posts marked out.

"When the other side is saying there is a doubt about this, there is no doubt about it. These posts have been marked and handed over to the other side for marking on their maps and are clearly inside Pakistani territory."

The incident occurred a day after Allen met Kayani to discuss border control and enhanced cooperation.

"After the recent meetings between Pakistan and ISAF/NATO forces to build confidence and trust, these kind of attacks should not have taken place," a senior military source told Reuters.

BLOCKED SUPPLIES

NATO supply trucks and fuel tankers bound for Afghanistan were stopped at Jamrud town in the Khyber tribal region near the city of Peshawar hours after the raid, officials said.

"We have halted the supplies and some 40 tankers and trucks have been returned from the check post in Jamrud," Mutahir Zeb, a senior government official, told Reuters.

Another official said the supplies had been stopped for security reasons.

"There is possibility of attacks on NATO supplies passing through the volatile Khyber tribal region, therefore we sent them back toward Peshawar to remain safe," he said.

The border crossing at Chaman in Baluchistan was also closed, Frontier Corps officials said.

Pakistan is a vital land route for nearly half of NATO supplies shipped overland to its troops in Afghanistan, a NATO spokesman said. Land shipments only account for about two thirds of the alliance's cargo shipments into Afghanistan.

A similar incident on Sept 30, 2010, which killed two Pakistani troops, led to the closure of one of NATO's supply routes through Pakistan for 10 days.

NATO apologized for that incident, which it said happened when NATO gunships mistook warning shots by the Pakistani forces for a militant attack.

U.S.-Pakistan relations were already reeling from a tumultuous year that saw the bin Laden raid, the jailing of a CIA contractor, and U.S. accusations that Pakistan backed a militant attack on the U.S. embassy in Kabul.

The United States has long suspected Pakistan of continuing to secretly support Taliban militant groups to secure influence in Afghanistan after most NATO troops leave in 2014. Saturday's incident will give Pakistan the argument that NATO is now attacking it directly.

"I think we should go to the United Nations Security Council against this," said retired Brigadier Mahmood Shah, former chief of security in the tribal areas. "So far, Pakistan is being blamed for all that is happening in Afghanistan, and Pakistan's point of view has not been shown in the international media."

Other analysts, including Rustam Shah Mohmand, a former ambassador to Afghanistan, said Pakistan would protest and close the supply lines for some time, but that ultimately "things will get back to normal."

Paul Beaver, a British security analyst, said relations were so bad that this incident might have no noticeable impact.

"I'm not sure U.S.-Pakistan relations could sink much lower than they are now," he said.

(Additional reporting by Bushra Takseen, Saud Mehsud, Jibran Ahmad and Saeed Achakzai in Pakistan, Tim Castle in London, and Hamid Shalizi and Christine Kearney in Afghanistan; Writing by Augustine Anthony and Chris Allbritton; Editing by Ron Popeski and Rosalind Russell)


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## Areesh

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> so did any one resigned?
> 
> TARIQ



No. Who cares if some soldier from some village is killed in this incident. They aren't sons of a general or politician or industrialist.


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## W.11

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Bhai sahib, in the case of 'US/Western mistakes/atrocities' the 'facts must be clearly established first', but of course when it comes to unsubstantiated allegations against Pakistan, no one gives a hoot about 'establishing facts'.



look agno, befriending and supporting a snake ,you knew whats gonna cost us, you, me, have to deal with this now, the mistake/sin of our ancestors(zardari, musharraf)


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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> What are you saying? No meetings took place until the ISPR says that it happened?



Well in normal circumstances, it would not be important but after this incident ISPR must provide proof that we were well aware of the location of this so called Company HQ. Your statement carries as much weight as my statement which could be we retaliated after we came under fire from that post.[/QUOTE]

Now, I have talked to people who had operated and flown in that area.

I agree with your part that the fact that the ISAF knew about the exact of the post must be established. A meeting did take place though.

It was not a high level meeting there, only a couple of officer commanding the local area, not of the bigger theater. So Every thing does not go into heli coordinates.

And BTW, the UN charter specifically said that NATO and ISAF only has the authority to conduct ops within Afghanistan, not outside.

What happened in the meeting of the National Security council, or is it still going on?


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## American Pakistani

By Reuters.


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## W.11

where are the zealous supporters of *operation 'rah e nijat'* operation hiding now??

i think nato has started another *rah e nijad* for pakistani soldiers now, *rah e nijad* brave volunteers are now becomng victims of their ally's *operation rah e nijad*

or say *Operation Rah-e-Rast*, to bring rahe rasat to this corrupt army generals

*when army starts killing its own people, phainty dono taraf se padte hai, but nation has to bear the shame n crimes of these idiots*


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## sarthak

Pakistan should stop giving support to NATO , cut all their supply routes unless they apologize for this and heavily compensate the families of the dead soldier

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## mr42O

Always Neutral said:


> What is there to be innocent of? A US chopper killed a few of our men in Afg too so does that mean US is not trusting us too?



Kill more of ur men who cares or gays who love to be in afghanistan since pastons are very happy to have white boys.... i suggest u join the.


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## Waffen SS

Well the military can only take out Hussain Haqqani but taking on NATO is wishful thinking.


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## anon45

This would be the early version of the ISAF's side of things. Attempts to gather information on the incident are presumed ongoing.



> KABUL, Afghanistan (September 30)  Early this morning, International Security Assistance Force observed what it believed was a group of insurgents attempting to fire mortars at a coalition base in the border area of Dand Patan district, Paktiya Province. An ISAF air weapons team was called to provide fire support and engaged the suspected insurgents' firing position, located inside Afghanistan along the border area. ISAF aircraft did enter into Pakistani airspace briefly as they engaged this initial target.
> 
> After the initial strike, the aircraft received what the crews assessed as effective small arms fire from individuals just across the border in Pakistan. Operating in self defense, the ISAF aircraft entered into Pakistani airspace killing several armed individuals.
> 
> Subsequently, Pakistan military officials informed ISAF that members of their border forces in the area had been struck by coalition aircraft.



ISAF Investigates Incident On Pakistan Border | ISAF - International Security Assistance Force


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## Character-Dheela

so eastern and western borders are opened for pakistan


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## Jungibaaz

*If they fast for 10 days, will it be enough to appease the loved ones of the fallen? 
*
Any more passive resistance only shows weakness. we've did it before, when do we realise that this method of approach wont work. Sad reality is that after 2 or 3 days, the average Pakistani will forget, the media will move on and puppet leaders will bow down to them again.


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## Jango

Areesh said:


> In this case definitely is.



The politicians go scotch free?

Just doing 'muzammat' is not enough is it.

COAS needs to impose himself a bit now and take some bloody action.

*Maj Mujahid who was martyred was a resident of Naudero, and a neighbour of Benazir Bhutto. He was supposed to get married after Muharram. RIP my friend. Really sad that he was getting married after a month.*


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## bhasinusc

Being an Indian I don't know if I should butt in in the conversation but I just feel Pakistan should do the following:

1. Realize that America is out for a war with Pakistan. I have no doubt about it. America is penetrated by Indian and Israeli advisers and they want war with Pakistan. Probably they are after your nukes.......Pakistan should realize this and prepare for a war.

2. Right now Pakistan should ask China and join in this war against America. If China guarantees help to Pakistan then America cannot do anything to Pakistan.


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## Awesome

Waffen SS said:


> Well the military can only take out Hussain Haqqani but taking on NATO is wishful thinking.



The point here is that you must fight back. Every bully seems too big to topple till you leave them with a bleeding nose. We should fear subjugation more than we fear death.


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## mr42O

Does taliban has posts along border ? u must be dumb *** old fart not to see its a army post. Its no way that it was mistake


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## Bratva

*Gulistan ko lahoo ki zaroorat pari
Sab se pehlay hi gardan hamaari kati.
Phir bhi kehtay hain hum se yeh ehl-e-chaman
Yeh chaman hai hamaara tumhaara nahi.

Zaalimon! Apni qismat pe nazaan na ho
Daur badlay gaa yeh waqt ki baat hai.
Wo yaqeenan sunay gaa sadai meri
Kya tumhaara khuda hai hamaara nahi?*

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> The point here is that you must *fight back.* Every bully seems too big to topple till you leave them with a bleeding nose. We should fear subjugation more than we fear death.



Fight back? Exactly what do you suggest?


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## Windjammer

was said:


> Apparently indians are celebrating.



Well what do you expect from Nationals who treat their own dead like waste.

Chhattisgarh: Martyred cops' bodies ferried in garbage truck : North News - India Today

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## W.11

Asim Aquil said:


> The point here is that you must fight back. Every bully seems too big to topple till you leave them with a bleeding nose. We should fear subjugation more than we fear death.



asim dont cry now, it was coming, you know what the army is made of, bully kids(local pakistanis) and being bullied by masters

you need to give much more price then 40,000 lives to get free from masters, because 40,000 is just the price for the master going easy on you


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## jetti

Asim Aquil said:


> The point here is that you must fight back. Every bully seems too big to topple till you leave them with a bleeding nose. We should fear subjugation more than we fear death.


 
easy to say that sitting in UAE. you have to weigh the possibility and ability to cause damage and sustain damage.


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## American Pakistani

*Over Night Attack*
by DAWN.COM on 11 26th, 2011 | 







An early morning Nato attack on Pakistans security forces has left at least 28 soldiers dead the Mohmand tribal region. In an immediate reaction to the attack, Pakistan blocked supplies to the allied forces based in Afghanistan. Additionally, Pakistans acting ambassador to the United States registered a protest against the attack with the US State Department.

The attack came a day after Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani met with Isaf Commander General John Allen to discuss measures concerning coordination, communication and procedures between the Pakistan army, Isaf and the Afghan army, aimed at enhancing border control on both sides.

This is not the first incident of its kind and while protests have been registered and voices raised, we are yet to see an official explanation into the incident.


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Fight back? Exactly what do you suggest?



War or an open confrontation is no option.

But atleast, the very least, we could stand up to the US and say 'hey ,listen up , we are a sovereign country, we have our own law and nation, we are not your slaves'. At least take a stand and impose yourselves, that we are not against you, but neither are we your slaves.


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## notorious_eagle

Always Neutral said:


> *You have implied NATO officers met PA officers at this post. Anybody with any knowledge of the Army knows all such meetings are recorded and minutes forwarded to higher formations. I doubt the ISPR will be so quiet if your facts are right.*



*However Pakistani military spokesman Major-General Athar Abbas said that NATO had been given maps of the area, with Pakistani military posts marked out.

"When the other side is saying there is a doubt about this, there is no doubt about it. These posts have been marked and handed over to the other side for marking on their maps and are clearly inside Pakistani territory."*

Pakistan stops NATO supplies after raid kills up to 28 | Reuters

Here's your confirmation with the ISPR that NATO was handed over the maps with all marked check points in the area. Its hard for me to believe that this was not a deliberate attack, a Gunship like Apache has an excellent visibility pod and it would be hard for the gunner to miss the Pakistani flag. About time that PA transfers Anza's from the Eastern front where thousands of these MANPADS are just sitting there collecting dust. It just hurts more when your so called ally attacks you without any provocation, imagine the fury that would have been created in the US if a Cobra gunship attacked and killed 26 NATO soldiers.


----------



## Awesome

VCheng said:


> Fight back? Exactly what do you suggest?



Shoot down the attacking chopper. Fire a babur onto the base from where it flew from.

However these come afterwards. I don't want Zardari taking us through this confrontation. I want him and Kayani out of the picture before this happens.

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## rohailmalhi

Punishement for what u are doing to them in Pakistan , they think Pakistan is there colony and they want to do whatever they want.

But this time i think PA should take a firm stand not just protest or anything.........


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## Jango

*Maj Mujahid who was martyred was a resident of Naudero, and a neighbour of Benazir Bhutto. He was supposed to get married after Muharram. RIP my friend. Really sad that he was getting married after a month.*

Really feel for all the families of the martyred.


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## Awesome

jetti said:


> easy to say that sitting in UAE. you have to weigh the possibility and ability to cause damage and sustain damage.



Its not easy, its the only option left.

Also please note, India and most free nations of the world would do exactly the same


----------



## Jango

Asim Aquil said:


> Shoot down the attacking chopper. Fire a babur onto the base from where it flew from.
> 
> However these come afterwards. I don't want Zardari taking us through this confrontation. I want him and Kayani out of the picture before this happens.



The exact same thing was said to me by a AD official, lure a heli here, and then blast it out of the sky. The only way that they will not dare to do anything afterwards.


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## Awesome

There is nothing wrong in killing an attacker, Nato personnel can now be killed with the moral high ground. They have committed massacre upon sleeping Pakistani soldiers.


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## Areesh

nuclearpak said:


> The politicians go scotch free?
> 
> Just doing 'muzammat' is not enough is it.
> 
> COAS needs to impose himself a bit now and take some bloody action.
> 
> *Maj Mujahid who was martyred was a resident of Naudero, and a neighbour of Benazir Bhutto. He was supposed to get married after Muharram. RIP my friend. Really sad that he was getting married after a month.*



Politicians are cr@p. We all know that. They can't even investigate the murder of their leaders. But what's with the army? They can't even save their own soldiers and officers. What's the point of having a military then? Why not privatize the military along with PIA and Railways. Where is our chain smoker COAS? Condemning. Stopping the supply line. Enough??? I can the feel the situation of those poor soldiers are in. They can't retaliate because they aren't ordered to do so by the higher command in Rawalpindi. All they can do is getting killed by their own "allies".


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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> Now, I have talked to people who had operated and flown in that area.
> 
> I agree with your part that the fact that the ISAF knew about the exact of the post must be established. A meeting did take place though.
> 
> It was not a high level meeting there, only a couple of officer commanding the local area, not of the bigger theater. So Every thing does not go into heli coordinates.
> 
> And BTW, the UN charter specifically said that NATO and ISAF only has the authority to conduct ops within Afghanistan, not outside.
> 
> What happened in the meeting of the National Security council, or is it still going on?



To be honest, I have no problems with your anger as it is justifiable for the moment and your accusations may also be proved true and in that case Tactical Cdr and not the pilot would probably be responsible and should be punished. At this moment PA (if it is so sure), should rightfully demand equal access to all the tactical records leading right upto the firing of the missile and I assure you there will be a lot with the NATO but hold your horses before declaring this as a one sided massacre of sleeping soldiers.

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## American Pakistani

Pakistan must raise this issue on every front in international arena, demand for murderers this is obviously a big & very serious issue. Elites & rulers chooriyan pehannay band karoo, zalimo murderers ka demand karo NATO & UN say.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Bill Longley said:


> *In era of GPS and GPRS its impossible that NATO did not know the position of Our Post. I think govt should give orders to shoot down hostile heli's if they cross limits. Shoot down 1 or two heli's they will behave. but with this Passive approch only result of hue and cry will be an apology over loss of Life by NATO and case close*



Haath may kashkoal liye america se beek mangte hain. Iss liye Pakistan america ko jawab dene ki himat nahi kar sakta..


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## K-Xeroid

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Bhai sahib, in the case of 'US/Western mistakes/atrocities' the 'facts must be clearly established first', but of course when it comes to unsubstantiated allegations against Pakistan, no one gives a hoot about 'establishing facts'.


Looks likes NATO and west have decided that only Pakistan have to follow fact... 
'establishing facts' . . .An old Term always used by west, but it has no value.


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## Jungibaaz

VCheng said:


> Fight back? Exactly what do you suggest?


----------



## Awesome

nuclearpak said:


> The exact same thing was said to me by a AD official, lure a heli here, and then blast it out of the sky. The only way that they will not dare to do anything afterwards.



Taking down a chopper, a US chopper is not easy. It has counter measures to deal with SAMs. Thats why the only kills by Taliban were not by a SAM/stinger but by RPG - a lucky or a well aimed surprise shot.


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## Emmie

anon45 said:


> This would be the early version of the ISAF's side of things. Attempts to gather information on the incident are presumed ongoing.
> 
> 
> 
> ISAF Investigates Incident On Pakistan Border | ISAF - International Security Assistance Force



BS.... Truly fabrication.. Pakistan shares precise locations of its check posts with NATO/ISAF, there's absolutely no possibility that choppers mistook Pakistani troops.

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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> War or an open confrontation is no option.
> 
> But atleast, the very least, we could stand up to the US and say 'hey ,listen up , we are a sovereign country, we have our own law and nation, we are not your slaves'. At least take a stand and impose yourselves, that we are not against you, but neither are we your slaves.



Do you think these three facts that you mention are really true?

1. "we are a sovereign country"

2. "we have our own law and nation"

3. "we are not your slaves"

Please take a good look around before replying.


----------



## regular

Asim Aquil said:


> Karzai condemns NATO airstrike - TwinCities.com
> 
> Notice that Nato bombed Afghan children yesterday.
> 
> Gen John Allen is the one who needs to be investigated. His sadistic techniques went unnoticed until much later in the Iraq war for which he got promoted in the US military.


Looks like he is used to stabbing in the pplz back, a hypocrite......


----------



## American Pakistani

nuclearpak said:


> *Maj Mujahid who was martyred was a resident of Naudero, and a neighbour of Benazir Bhutto. He was supposed to get married after Muharram. RIP my friend. Really sad that he was getting married after a month.*
> 
> Really feel for all the families of the martyred.



Inna Lillah e Wa Inna Eleh e Rajeoon.
Rest in Heaven, O great martyr, O great protector.

Feel painful for the loved ones he & other martyrs left.

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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> To be honest, I have no problems with your anger as it is justifiable for the moment and your accusations may also be proved true and in that case Tactical Cdr and not the pilot would probably be responsible and should be punished. At this moment PA (if it is so sure), should rightfully demand equal access to all the tactical records leading right upto the firing of the missile and I assure you there will be a lot with the NATO but hold your horses before declaring this as a one sided massacre of sleeping soldiers.



See the PM i sent you. 

It was night time. How could he not see the Pakistani flag and the presence of troops. Or did he just fire blindly?


----------



## Always Neutral

notorious_eagle said:


> *However Pakistani military spokesman Major-General Athar Abbas said that NATO had been given maps of the area, with Pakistani military posts marked out.
> 
> "When the other side is saying there is a doubt about this, there is no doubt about it. These posts have been marked and handed over to the other side for marking on their maps and are clearly inside Pakistani territory."*
> 
> Pakistan stops NATO supplies after raid kills up to 28 | Reuters
> 
> .



The same article also says

*The Afghanistan-Pakistan border is often poorly marked, and Afghan and Pakistani maps have differences of several kilometers in some places, military officials have said.*


----------



## Areesh

jetti said:


> off topic... must have been only because no other alternative was there and media made it to an issue. But PA did not even accept their soldier's bodies after kargil war. nothing can be worse than that.
> 
> Wiki Kargil War for below:
> "Pakistan
> 
> Faced with the possibility of international isolation, the already fragile Pakistani economy was weakened further.[106][107] The morale of Pakistani forces after the withdrawal declined as many units of the Northern Light Infantry suffered heavy casualties.[22][108] *The government refused to accept the dead bodies of many officers,[109][110] an issue that provoked outrage and protests in the Northern Areas*.[111][112] Pakistan initially did not acknowledge many of its casualties, but Sharif later said that over 4,000 Pakistani troops were killed in the operation.[10] Responding to this, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf said, "It hurts me when an ex-premier undermines his own forces," and claimed that Indian casualties were more than that of Pakistan.[113]"



Get lost you troll.


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## jetti

Asim Aquil said:


> Its not easy, its the only option left.
> 
> Also please note, India and most free nations of the world would do exactly the same


forget india... after so many attacks by pakistan based terrorists they have been unable to do anything.. 
Lets see how Pak fares. this is the first time another country is attacking its armed forces on its soil during peacetime.(assume that WOT is not a war between nations)


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Do you think these three facts that you mention are really true?
> 
> 1. "we are a sovereign country"
> 
> 2. "we have our own law and nation"
> 
> 3. "we are not your slaves"
> 
> Please take a good look around before replying.



Well, I feel ashamed to say this, and I am sure you do to, but we have sold our country for petty things.

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## jetti

Areesh said:


> Get lost you troll.


please see #205 and tell me if my response is justified.. if not you can tell me how an indian should answer that


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## Awesome

jetti said:


> forget india... after so many attacks by pakistan based terrorists they have been unable to do anything..
> Lets see how Pak fares. this is the first time another country is attacking its armed forces on its soil during peacetime.(assume that WOT is not a war between nations)



There is a difference, Pakistan says it wants to stop any attacks upon India from its soil.

The US says we will attack when we have to.

The distinction should not be lost in the distinct examples. Faced with certain attack, India will defend itself.


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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> Well, I feel ashamed to say this, and I am sure you do to, but we have sold our country for petty things.



"Truth hurts."

However, we do need to get our country back, _somehow_.


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## American Pakistani

Waffen SS said:


> Pakistan can't do jack about it and everybody knows it.
> 
> Internet Warriors and Armchair generals can may come up with their delusional BATTLE PLANS to annhilate NATO forces but in the real world, Pakistan Armed Forces and the country stand no chance.
> 
> You can carry on an insurgency against a superior fighting force but a conventional war would be one-sided.



Yes Pakistan cannot & should not go to war but now Pakistan have a right to impose tax of $4-8million for one NATO truck crossing Pakistan. Also Pakistan can put heavy pressure via China, Saudia, Russia, Turkey etc & also demand NATO for handing over those murderers if not Pakistan can reach ICJ.


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## jetti

See.. it may be a mistake also (friendly fire) .. John Allen has expressed condolence and an investigation into the incident. So we may just be overreacting... Please note that this area is not demarcated propeely.


----------



## Pakistanisage

This thread is the result of too many Juvenile Internet Warriors with no connection with realities of the real World. You think the problem lies with Kiyani ? The problem lies with us Pakistanis who have not created an economically viable country in 65 years. We are a weak country and just like all weak countries, we are being slapped around, pure and simple. If you don't like this reality then do something about it. Make Pakistan an Economic and Military power and all this Nato foolishness will stop. Kiyani can attack Nato forces tomorrow and what will that accomplish, Geniuses. Let me paint the scenario for your undeveloped minds in language that your immature minds can grasp:

1. Half of Pakistan's Exports are to United States of America. In an event of War, America will ban these imports and that will result in massive loss and erosion of Pakistani Economy.

2. Nato forces are far more advanced ( Technologically speaking ) than the poorly equipped Pakistani Army and because of this assymytric capability Nato forces will exact damaging losses on Pak Army.

Are you Immature internet heroes prepared for this doomsday scenario that spells an existential threat to Pakistan ? In your immature internet world these realities of Pakistan's compulsions do not factor in but the leaders of the country have to deal with these real issues. I hope the Pakistani govt takes measured and deliberate actions based on real world realities. Pakistan should consider revoking its agreements and cooperation with Nato forces and stop the shipments to Nato through Pakistani territory to begin with, but avoid escalation of hostilities by not responding militarily. Nato ( actually the US) knows Pakistan's limitations and are trying to goad Pakistan into an action to escalate the hostilities. 

Please grow up and stop posting such emotional threads and posts that reflect your immaurity and lack of intellect. Give me some evidence that you are capable of rational and coherent thought that is not destructive to the existence of Pakistan.

P.S. My comments are directed against all those mental midgets who demanded a resignation from COAS General Kiyani.

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## Jango

VCheng said:


> "Truth hurts."
> 
> However, we do need to get our country back, _somehow_.



Definitely do.


----------



## American Pakistani



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## W.11

Pakistanisage said:


> 2. Nato forces are far more advanced ( Technologically speaking ) than the poorly equipped Pakistani Army and because of this assymytric capability Nato forces will exact damaging losses on Pak Army.



oohh mee khuda ths idiot brainwashed kid,

please just answer me y is your dear NATO losing so many lives in afghanistan and losing a war there, and how is talibans punishing your soldiers in afghanistan by shooting a chinook with an RPG

you are not even winning against stone age people, how can you overcome pakistan army??

keeping aside your brave airforce which you think can easily bring down pakistan, pakistan unlike afghaistan has an airforce which can answer any of your retarded air aggression

the so called superior technology cant win a war in stone age afghanistan, your superior technology cant safeguard your arse during 9/11 how can your superior arse can protect you from the hell, you dont even have superior techno arse in big numbers to protect your superior techno arse

war is lost its time to pack bags and go back home and enjoy mcdonalds in your retirement

let me telling your superior techno arse y r u losing,

you are not even guarding your border against enemy, you are not even guarding your borders properly, you are letting anti pakistani talibans to kill our people, you are just a group of rag tag gangsters, your gangsters from LA street are being recruited to fight this shitty war, we want your gangsters to be taken away immeditely

and further you need to beg china to carry on this war, trillions of dollars, i hope your daddy is not funding trillion dollars for this war

you have trillion dollar depts to china, every born americn is thousands of dollars indebted to china, your economy is running out, you are jobless in your own country now, poverty is increasing and you are talking about your superior technology, shame on yourself


----------



## jetti

Asim Aquil said:


> There is a difference, Pakistan says it wants to stop any attacks upon India from its soil.
> 
> The US says we will attack when we have to.
> 
> The distinction should not be lost in the distinct examples. Faced with certain attack, India will defend itself.


 I agree.. but this is not a full blown war yet.. I think Pak must show restraint.. by attacking them you are playing into their hands and giving them an excuse to defang Pak off its Nukes. A loss of 25 soldiers does hurt the ego/pride, but its prudent to harm them more subtly / diplomatically. cutting off supply is one step in the right direction.
next is try to manipulate china into a hard position against US. a direct frontal assault would be suicide.. maybe you will get a few hundred soldiers , but Pak damage may be irrresparable.


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## Bratva

VCheng said:


> "Truth hurts."
> 
> However, we do need to get our country back, _somehow_.



Not "OURS", you should say "YOURS", because some people forgot they ran away from the very "OUR" country and applied asylum in AMREEKA and got what they wanted

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## Areesh

American Pakistani said:


>



Supplies blocked. Which would be resumed after 2 weeks. And the martyred soldiers would be paid 50000RS by the govt of Pakistan as "compensation".


----------



## VCheng

mafiya said:


> Not "OURS", you should say "YOURS", because some people forgot they ran away from the very "OUR" country and applied asylum in AMREEKA and got what they wanted



_Some _people have dual nationalities!


----------



## Dance

American Pakistani said:


>



This man speaks the truth!


----------



## Areesh

Pakistanisage said:


> This thread is the result of too many Juvenile Internet Warriors with no connection with realities of the real World. You think the problem lies with Kiyani ? The problem lies with us Pakistanis who have not created an economically viable country in 65 years. We are a weak country and just like all weak countries, we are being slapped around, pure and simple. If you don't like this reality then do something about it. Make Pakistan an Economic and Military power and all this Nato foolishness will stop. Kiyani can attack Nato forces tomorrow and what will that accomplish, Geniuses. Let me paint the scenario for your undeveloped minds in language that your immature minds can grasp:
> 
> 1. Half of Pakistan's Exports are to United States of America. In an event of War, America will ban these imports and that will result in massive loss and erosion of Pakistani Economy.
> 
> 2. Nato forces are far more advanced ( Technologically speaking ) than the poorly equipped Pakistani Army and because of this assymytric capability Nato forces will exact damaging losses on Pak Army.
> 
> Are you Immature internet heroes prepared for this doomsday scenario that spells an existential threat to Pakistan ? In your immature internet world these realities of Pakistan's compulsions do not factor in but the leaders of the country have to deal with these real issues. I hope the Pakistani govt takes measured and deliberate actions based on real world realities. Pakistan should consider revoking its agreements and cooperation with Nato forces and stop the shipments to Nato through Pakistani territory to begin with, but avoid escalation of hostilities by not responding militarily. Nato ( actually the US) knows Pakistan's limitations and are trying to goad Pakistan into an action to escalate the hostilities.
> 
> Please grow up and stop posting such emotional threads and posts that reflect your immaurity and lack of intellect. Give me some evidence that you are capable of rational and coherent thought that is not destructive to the existence of Pakistan.
> 
> P.S. My comments are directed against all those mental midgets who demanded a resignation from COAS General Kiyani.



Wonderful post buddy. What sanity from you. Now go and tell this to those 28 families whose sons are killed by their "allies". Those poor guys were expecting for some "reaction" by Pakistani govt for the murder of their sons.


----------



## jetti

mafiya said:


> Not "OURS", you should say "YOURS", because some people forgot they ran away from the very "OUR" country and applied asylum in AMREEKA and got what they wanted


you are also in Qatar


----------



## Always Neutral

KarachiPunk said:


> oohh mee khuda ths idiot brainwashed kid,
> 
> please just answer me y is your dear NATO losing so many lives in afghanistan and losing a war there, and how is talibans punishing your soldiers in afghanistan by shooting a chinook with an RPG
> 
> you are not even winning against stone age people, how can you overcome pakistan army??
> 
> keeping aside your brave airforce which you think can easily bring down pakistan, pakistan unlike afghaistan has an airforce which can answer any of your retarded air aggression



Well if PAF was that capable we would have the three stealth helos landing and never taking of from Abbotabad. Taliban are a civil force and they are getting their ***** whipped wherever they take a military stand. LTTE was wiped out the day they tried to behave like an army. PA, PAF and PN will be decimated in a few hours, forget days. That does not mean the US can ever conquer Pakistan. learn the differences.

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## jetti

Areesh said:


> They were militants buddy and I am thankful to you guys for burying them with military honors.


fool yourselves..


----------



## Areesh

jetti said:


> fool yourselves..



Keep watching Bollywood.


----------



## jetti

Areesh said:


> Keep watching Bollywood.


sure.. what can you watch?


----------



## Hulk

heard the supplies are blocked only through one route.


----------



## livingdead

Pakistanisage said:


> This thread is the result of too many Juvenile Internet Warriors with no connection with realities of the real World. You think the problem lies with Kiyani ? The problem lies with us Pakistanis who have not created an economically viable country in 65 years. We are a weak country and just like all weak countries, we are being slapped around, pure and simple. If you don't like this reality then do something about it. Make Pakistan an Economic and Military power and all this Nato foolishness will stop. Kiyani can attack Nato forces tomorrow and what will that accomplish, Geniuses. Let me paint the scenario for your undeveloped minds in language that your immature minds can grasp:
> 
> 1. Half of Pakistan's Exports are to United States of America. In an event of War, America will ban these imports and that will result in massive loss and erosion of Pakistani Economy.
> 
> 2. Nato forces are far more advanced ( Technologically speaking ) than the poorly equipped Pakistani Army and because of this assymytric capability Nato forces will exact damaging losses on Pak Army.
> 
> Are you Immature internet heroes prepared for this doomsday scenario that spells an existential threat to Pakistan ? In your immature internet world these realities of Pakistan's compulsions do not factor in but the leaders of the country have to deal with these real issues. I hope the Pakistani govt takes measured and deliberate actions based on real world realities. Pakistan should consider revoking its agreements and cooperation with Nato forces and stop the shipments to Nato through Pakistani territory to begin with, but avoid escalation of hostilities by not responding militarily. Nato ( actually the US) knows Pakistan's limitations and are trying to goad Pakistan into an action to escalate the hostilities.
> 
> Please grow up and stop posting such emotional threads and posts that reflect your immaurity and lack of intellect. Give me some evidence that you are capable of rational and coherent thought that is not destructive to the existence of Pakistan.
> 
> P.S. My comments are directed against all those mental midgets who demanded a resignation from COAS General Kiyani.


You seem to have taken all the fun from the silly game we play here. Most people still dont understand in this age good economy is as much important to your security as good military(or even the bomb).

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## Waffen SS

Always Neutral said:


> Well if PAF was that capable we would have the three stealth helos landing and never taking of from Abbotabad. Taliban are a civil force and they are getting their ***** whipped wherever they take a military stand. LTTE was wiped out the day they tried to behave like an army. PA, PAF and PN will be decimated in a few hours, forget days. That does not mean the US can ever conquer Pakistan. learn the differences.



Absolutely true.

There is a difference between getting destroyed and getting occupied.
Pakistan can't be occupied but if it turns into an Afghanistan, what use it would be to us.


----------



## Emmie

indianrabbit said:


> heard the supplies are blocked only through one route.



No, both of the routes have been blocked..


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## jetti

Waffen SS said:


> Absolutely true.
> 
> There is a difference between getting destroyed and getting occupied.
> Pakistan can't be occupied but if it turns into an Afghanistan, what use it would be to us.



very sensible.. i think its important to lurk in the shadow and strike when the iron is hot.


----------



## mr42O

anon45 said:


> This would be the early version of the ISAF's side of things. Attempts to gather information on the incident are presumed ongoing.
> 
> 
> 
> ISAF Investigates Incident On Pakistan Border | ISAF - International Security Assistance Force




Person who gave order to shoot. And pilot who shoot. Give them to Pakistan who will be killed with one bullet each in there head....


----------



## American Pakistani

Areesh said:


> Supplies blocked. Which would be resumed after 2 weeks. And the martyred soldiers would be paid 50000RS by the govt of Pakistan as "compensation".



That's the sad truth.

If PA & govt does nothing than awam & media needs to come on roads now, close this chapter of dramaybazi of blockade-apology-back to normal.


----------



## Windjammer

Mike2011 said:


> If it gives you mental masturbation, pleasure enjoy.



Save your verbal diarrhoea..... my reply extended to the cheap mentality of your country fellows.


----------



## K-Xeroid

VCheng said:


> "Truth hurts."
> 
> However, we do need to get our country back, _somehow_.


Here I just say "Offense is a better defence".


----------



## jetti

mr42O said:


> Person who gave order to shoot. And pilot who shoot. Give them to Pakistan who will be killed with one bullet each in there head....


To me it just looks like a mistake.. Even if not seems like US will say 'Oops' and get on in life. Pak will eventually open the routes after anger subsides


----------



## Character-Dheela

Areesh said:


> They were militants buddy and I am thankful to you guys for burying them with military honors.



why not ask musharaf??He is not bollywood hero


----------



## Always Neutral

mr42O said:


> Person who gave order to shoot. And pilot who shoot. Give them to Pakistan who will be killed with one bullet each in there head....



sure move back to Pakistan first. People are very brave when they live far away from the action.

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## W.11

these false flag pakistani americans are talking about superior technology, their superior technology is not saving them from becoming international beggars and recession

in next 5 years you might be migrating again, becoming an international displaced people, america is also becoming more racist, so you even would be digging out your ancestors bones and trying to come back to pakistan like prophet moses israel

and no pakistan wont welcome you, stay away


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## Character-Dheela

ISAf gets 50% supplies from CAR countries,so just 50% blocked.I hope they make rest of the 50% from CAR region.


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## Always Neutral

Areesh said:


> If Indians are willing to go for a *possible nuclear war* after some terrorist attack then 28000 doesn't seem to be a big loss for me.
> 
> Answer: Yes I would go for it and in fact would send my family members for it.



The day you compare India to NATO you have already lost the battle.


----------



## jetti

KarachiPunk said:


> these false flag pakistani americans are talking about superior technology, their superior technology is not saving them from becoming international beggars and recession


off-topic.. displaying frustration


----------



## mr42O

jetti said:


> sure.. what can you watch?



Indian ladies dancing for us.....

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## Adnan Faruqi

Pakistanisage said:


> This thread is the result of too many Juvenile Internet Warriors with no connection with realities of the real World. You think the problem lies with Kiyani ? The problem lies with us Pakistanis who have not created an economically viable country in 65 years. We are a weak country and just like all weak countries, we are being slapped around, pure and simple. If you don't like this reality then do something about it. Make Pakistan an Economic and Military power and all this Nato foolishness will stop. Kiyani can attack Nato forces tomorrow and what will that accomplish, Geniuses. Let me paint the scenario for your undeveloped minds in language that your immature minds can grasp:
> 
> 1. Half of Pakistan's Exports are to United States of America. In an event of War, America will ban these imports and that will result in massive loss and erosion of Pakistani Economy.
> 
> 2. Nato forces are far more advanced ( Technologically speaking ) than the poorly equipped Pakistani Army and because of this assymytric capability Nato forces will exact damaging losses on Pak Army.
> 
> Are you Immature internet heroes prepared for this doomsday scenario that spells an existential threat to Pakistan ? In your immature internet world these realities of Pakistan's compulsions do not factor in but the leaders of the country have to deal with these real issues. I hope the Pakistani govt takes measured and deliberate actions based on real world realities. Pakistan should consider revoking its agreements and cooperation with Nato forces and stop the shipments to Nato through Pakistani territory to begin with, but avoid escalation of hostilities by not responding militarily. Nato ( actually the US) knows Pakistan's limitations and are trying to goad Pakistan into an action to escalate the hostilities.
> 
> Please grow up and stop posting such emotional threads and posts that reflect your immaurity and lack of intellect. Give me some evidence that you are capable of rational and coherent thought that is not destructive to the existence of Pakistan.
> 
> P.S. My comments are directed against all those mental midgets who demanded a resignation from COAS General Kiyani.




1. A simple question to u as pak army eats up most of the resources and still u think its not capable of defending its sovernity in this case what u suggests???????

2. Do u want to say that cut the military budget and divert it to the infrastructure, power, education and health and make pakistan economically strong??????????

3. Because as per ur own judgements if u continue to pump up money into military and ur economy remain scattered its of no use.

4. After all the goal of maintain a big military is to defend nation's sovereignty isn't it??????


----------



## Areesh

Character-Dheela said:


> why not ask musharaf??He is not bollywood hero



Last time I saw in his interview he said Kargil was a successful operation.


----------



## 53fd

I can see the Indians wetting themselves of a prospect of an open confrontation between Pakistan & the US. There will be no such thing, both countries need each other to a large degree, & in case of an open confrontation, India (& the whole region) would be affected devastatingly.


----------



## Always Neutral

KarachiPunk said:


> these false flag pakistani americans are talking about superior technology, their superior technology is not saving them from becoming international beggars and recession
> 
> in next 5 years you might be migrating again, becoming an international displaced people
> 
> and no pakistan wont welcome you



Just see the long line of Pakistanis in front of the US embassy and than let me know. If PA was that strong I assure you they would have driven NATO out of Afg by now. So chill.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## VCheng

Android K-Zero said:


> Here I just say "Offense is a better defence".



A military offense? Against who? I do not think that would be wise at this stage.

Political and military contacts and negotiations might prove more fruitful.


----------



## jetti

mr42O said:


> Indian ladies dancing for us.....


sure .. but that comes only in Bollywood.. and you imply that you dont watch it ...


----------



## mr42O

news reports are not all nato supply are close. So just to fool ppl of Pakistan and creat some hype they have made this story.


----------



## punisher

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan blocks NATO Afghan supplies after fatal air strike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YAKKAGHUND, Pakistan (Reuters) - NATO helicopters attacked a military checkpoint in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, killing up to 25 troops and prompting Pakistan to shut the vital supply route for NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan, Pakistani officials said.
> 
> The attack comes as relations between the United States and Pakistan, its ally in the war on terror, are already badly strained following the killing of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden by U.S. special forces in a secret raid on the Pakistani garrison town of Abbottabad in May.
> 
> Pakistan called that raid a flagrant violation of its sovereignty.
> 
> A Pakistani military spokesman confirmed Saturday's pre-dawn cross-border attack in the tribal region of Mohmand and said casualties had been reported, but gave no details.
> 
> "NATO helicopters carried out an unprovoked and indiscriminate firing on a Pakistani check post in Mohmand agency, casualties have been reported and details are awaited," the spokesman told Reuters.
> 
> Two military officials said that up to 25 Pakistani troops had been killed and 14 wounded in the attack on the Salala check post, about 2.5 km (1.5 miles) from the Afghan border.
> 
> "We have heard about heavy casualties but can't provide you with the exact number of casualties of our troops as the post is far away, located in the mountains and is difficult to reach at the moment," a military spokesman in Peshawar said.
> 
> The attack took place around 2 a.m. (2100 GMT) in the Baizai area of Mohmand, where Pakistani troops are fighting Taliban militants.
> 
> Another senior Pakistani military officer said efforts were under way to bring the bodies of the slain soldiers to Ghalanai, the headquarters of Mohmand tribal region.
> 
> "The latest attack by NATO forces on our post will have serious repercussions as they without any reasons attacked on our post and killed soldiers asleep," he said, requesting anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.
> 
> About 40 Pakistani army troops were stationed at the outpost, military sources said. Two officers were reported among the dead.
> 
> NATO supply trucks and fuel tankers bound for Afghanistan were stopped at Jamrud town in the Khyber tribal region near the city of Peshawar hours after the raid, officials said.
> 
> "We have halted the supplies and some 40 tankers and trucks have been returned from the check post in Jamrud," Mutahir Zeb, a senior government official, told Reuters.
> 
> Another official said the supplies had been stopped for security reasons.
> 
> Pakistan is a vital land route for 49 percent of NATO's supplies to its troops in Afghanistan, a NATO spokesman said.
> 
> A spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force in Kabul said the coalition there was aware of "an incident" and was gathering more information.
> 
> The incident occurred a day after U.S. General John Allen met Pakistani Army Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani to discuss border control and enhanced cooperation.
> 
> The Afghanistan-Pakistan border is often poorly marked, and differs between maps by up to five miles in some places.
> 
> A similar incident on Sept 30, 2009, which killed two Pakistani troops, led to the closure of one of NATO's supply routes through Pakistan for 10 days.
> 
> NATO apologized for that incident, which it said happened when NATO gunships mistook warning shots by the Pakistani forces for a militant attack.
> 
> The attack is expected to further worsen U.S.-Pakistan relations, already at one of their lowest points in history, following a tumultuous year that saw the bin Laden raid, the jailing of a CIA contractor, and U.S. accusations that Pakistan backed a militant attack on the U.S. Embassy in Kabul.
> 
> An increase in U.S. drone strikes on militants in the last few years has also irritated Islamabad, which says the campaign kills more Pakistani civilians in the border area than activists. Washington disputes that, but declines to discuss the drone campaign in detail.
> 
> "This is an attack on Pakistan's territorial sovereignty," said Masood Kasur, the governor of Pakistan's northwestern Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province.
> 
> "Such cross-border attacks cannot be tolerated any more. The government will take up this matter at the highest level and it will be investigated."
> 
> (Additional reporting by Saud Mehsud and Jibran Ahmad; Writing by Augustine Anthony and Chris Allbritton; Editing by Nick Macfie)



WOW what kinda ally they are?????


----------



## Areesh

Always Neutral said:


> The day you compare India to NATO you have already lost the battle.



Possible nuclear war is the worst scenario. And if "sane" Indians have no problem with it then I as an "insane" Pakistani also can follow the same line.


----------



## Character-Dheela

bilalhaider said:


> I can see the Indians wetting themselves of a prospect of an open confrontation between Pakistan & the US. There will be no such thing, both countries need each other to a large degree, & in case of an open confrontation, India (& the whole region) would be affected devastatingly.



india dont want any war in region and you people brought them in not us.


----------



## 888jamie888

KarachiPunk said:


> oohh mee khuda ths idiot brainwashed kid,
> 
> please just answer me y is your dear NATO losing so many lives in afghanistan and losing a war there, and how is talibans punishing your soldiers in afghanistan by shooting a chinook with an RPG
> 
> you are not even winning against stone age people, how can you overcome pakistan army??
> 
> keeping aside your brave airforce which you think can easily bring down pakistan, pakistan unlike afghaistan has an airforce which can answer any of your retarded air aggression
> 
> the so called superior technology cant win a war in stone age afghanistan, your superior technology cant safeguard your arse during 9/11 how can your superior arse can protect you from the hell, you dont even have superior techno arse in big numbers to protect your superior techno arse
> 
> war is lost its time to pack bags and go back home and enjoy mcdonalds in your retirement
> 
> let me telling your superior techno arse y r u losing,
> 
> you are not even guarding your border against enemy, you are not even guarding your borders properly, you are letting anti pakistani talibans to kill our people, you are just a group of rag tag gangsters, your gangsters from LA street are being recruited to fight this shitty war, we want your gangsters to be taken away immeditely
> 
> and further you need to beg china to carry on this war, trillions of dollars, i hope your daddy is not funding trillion dollars for this war
> 
> you have trillion dollar depts to china, every born americn is thousands of dollars indebted to china, your economy is running out, you are jobless in your own country now, poverty is increasing and you are talking about your superior technology, shame on yourself


It's like you've had a mental breakdown whilst writing that. Perhaps some chill out time?


----------



## Areesh

VCheng said:


> A military offense? Against who? I do not think that would be wise at this stage.
> 
> Political and military contacts and negotiations might prove more fruitful.


 
Yeah political and military negotiations are more "fruitful". At least 28 won't be killed next time. We would suffice with one or two.


----------



## jetti

Areesh said:


> Possible nuclear war is the worst scenario. And if "sane" Indians have no problem with it then I as an "insane" Pakistani also can follow the same line.


living the life of an everyday afghani will be worst case with mullahs taking over pak after US defangs the nukes. Life in pak will be miserable with taliban sharia laws. trust me.. thats worst case


----------



## whitenose

I was reading this and had to register to ask why posters are so defeatist? NATO is not in a good place strategically it has 130000 troops dispersed across Afghanistan, from different nationalities,and without proper resupply if Pakistan mobilizes it's armed forces I'm pretty sure they could quickly overrun the isolated NATO forces and escort them out of Afghanistan.Blitzkrieg NATO would run out of ammunition in days.But it all depends on what the Pakistani military/political leadership decides to do I don't think it would be a one sides confrontation. Certainly Pakistan might suffer heavy causalities in the initial assault but as shown by the Soviets during WW2 and Chinese in the Korean war you could overrun even the most superior firepower through numbers.And again they have no resupply it would be over in a week they would simply have no ammunition left.And the Chinese fought the entire UN not even just NATO and the UN had a lot more forces and proper resupply.Pakistan should think of it's strategic interests the future is in an alliance with China. NATO simply doesn't belong in the region and will eventually leave anyway.Their presence is only temporary.


----------



## Always Neutral

Areesh said:


> Possible nuclear war is the worst scenario. And if "sane" Indians have no problem with it then I as an "insane" Pakistani also can follow the same line.



And whom do you propose to nuke?


----------



## 53fd

Here is the interesting bit:

*Pak summons US envoy over NATO attack*



> In the latest blow to US-Pak relationship, a NATO helicopter has fired on two Pakistani border checkpoints killing 25 soldiers including 2 officers. Pakistan has responded by summoning the US envoy to Pakistan to lodge a strong protest with the NATO and shut the Torkham border crossing to NATO. The border crossing is a key supply route for NATO.
> 
> Reports indicate that the two border posts which were attacked by the NATO helicopters, were a 100 ft apart. A statement from the Pakistani military blamed NATO copters for carrying out &#8220;unprovoked and indiscriminate firing.&#8221;
> 
> *The attacked checkpoints were set up recently to stop Pakistani Taliban from attacking the Pakistani forces from across the border. Pakistan has criticized Afghan security forces saying they have not done enough to stop the attacks.*
> 
> US-Pak relationship has been going downhill ever since US launched a covert operation to kill Osama bin Laden in Abbotabad without telling Pakistani authorities.
> 
> The two sides have been engaged in a war of words that have only escalated in recent months. Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen had accused Pakistan of covertly supporting militants who have been attacking NATO forces in Afghanistan.
> 
> He said Pakistan has either been supporting these militants directly or has been turning a blind eye to militants who launch attacks from its territories. The US has also been talking about an inordinate amount of fire from the Pakistani side which have been landing near the NATO security forces. The US has also assembled a large amount of troops and heavy weaponry near the border with Pakistan, prompting fears that it wanted to invade the Pakistani North West where militants are supposed to be based.
> 
> Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani warned that US should think &#8217;10 times&#8217; before launching an operation on Pakistani soil. Keeping up the pressure from the US side, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in her visit to Islamabad warned Pakistan of the dangers of keeping &#8216;snakes in the backyard.&#8217;
> 
> This latest incident seems to be a virtual rewind of the similar incident about a year ago which has resulted in the deaths of two Pakistani soldiers. Then too Pakistan had shut down Torkham, and had demanded a US apology. The border crossing was only reopened when the US formally apologized.
> 
> This time the incident is much more deadly, and comes in the wake of already strained relations.


----------



## punisher

LOL its NATO who attacked Pakistani, better don't bring India into this. Thanks in advance.


----------



## W.11

888jamie888 said:


> It's like you've had a mental breakdown whilst writing that. Perhaps some chill out time?



and you are mentally retarded by birth??


----------



## Waffen SS

mr42O said:


> news reports are not all nato supply are close. So just to fool ppl of Pakistan and creat some hype they have made this story.



Yeah! they are fooling us in much the same way as Imran's Dharna in Karachi to suspend NATO supply lines.


----------



## Windjammer

bilalhaider said:


> I can see the Indians wetting themselves of a prospect of an open confrontation between Pakistan & the US. There will be no such thing, both countries need each other to a large degree, & in case of an open confrontation, India (& the whole region) would be affected devastatingly.



Yea, and one wonders, what appetite they have when an enemy sitting in the house gives them a bloody nose....ad hock at best.

Pan-African News Wire: Maoists Kill Dozens of Police in India Attack


----------



## Areesh

Always Neutral said:


> And whom do you propose to nuke?



No one. Was just answering an "indian" who was trying to be "sane".


----------



## Character-Dheela

whitenose said:


> I was reading this and had to register to ask why posters are so defeatist? NATO is not in a good place strategically it has 130000 troops dispersed across Afghanistan, from different nationalities,and without proper resupply if Pakistan mobilizes it's armed forces I'm pretty sure they could quickly overrun the isolated NATO forces and escort them out of Afghanistan.Blitzkrieg NATO would run out of ammunition in days.But it all depends on what the Pakistani military/political leadership decides to do I don't think it would be a one sides confrontation. Certainly Pakistan might suffer heavy causalities in the initial assault but as shown by the Soviets during WW2 and Chinese in the Korean war you could overrun even the most superior firepower through numbers.And again they have no resupply it would be over in a week they would simply have no ammunition left.And the Chinese fought the entire UN not even just NATO and the UN had a lot more forces and proper resupply.Pakistan should think of it's strategic interests the future is in an alliance with China. NATO simply doesn't belong in the region and will eventually leave anyway.Their presence is only temporary.



They may stay after 2014 and not here to leave.you can go through various articles.


----------



## Pioneerfirst

Always Neutral said:


> sure move back to Pakistan first. People are very brave when they live far away from the action.



Pakistanis are in the center of war,yes they were away from the war but the defeat of US and NAto has brought Pakistan in the war.35000 civilian Pakistanis have been killed in the big cities almost 500-1000km away from Afghan border.So do not talk about the Brave Pakistanis.If such had happened in USA or in UK ?
Pakistanis are feeling the pinch,not Like USA and WEST that "create the mess and then BLAME & RUN AWAY "


----------



## K-Xeroid

Areesh said:


> Yeah political and military negotiations are more "fruitful". At least 28 won't be killed next time. We would suffice with one or two.


We negotiated when previous incident happened, and look how much it become fruitful "2 become 28". wat next?


----------



## jetti

Windjammer said:


> Yea, and one wonders, what appetite they have when an enemy sitting in the house gives them a bloody nose....ad hock at best.
> 
> Pan-African News Wire: Maoists Kill Dozens of Police in India Attack



Off topic troll frustrated.


----------



## justanobserver

Has there been any reaction from China ?


----------



## DV RULES

Pakistan wouldn't let this incident without strong retaliation. This is now the matter of national security, sovereignty and respect. 

All border posts should be equipped by anti aircraft guns and shoot down every heli or aircraft crossing red line. Why air force didn't react and chased this terrorist heli and gunned down? Why not establish air defense command and control center especially for mountain region of FATA to give quick support to border force? What the hell use of JCOSC?

For what we spend money on JF-17? To decorate them on Peshawar airbase? Better to send them museum. Where were at that moment air defense when NATO heli was in Pakistani boundary? & I damn sure that even if NATO helicopters entered till Peshawar or Indus river air force couldnt get them and all F-16s and JF-17s found in moonlight dreams. Now it is need of time to made emergency air bases in FATA. 

What security measures are taken by JCOSC headquarter for border forces and their posts? As it is written that authorities are trying to bring bodies from that post which difficult to access in mountains so again I want to say what army did to establish better communication in between posts and command center? 

Just think about them who are there in mountain to secure border and nobody can access them if something happened there, no urgent rescue, no urgent fire support from our mighty air force or army aviation.


----------



## jetti

Character-Dheela said:


> They may stay after 2014 and not here to leave.you can go through various articles.


LOL looks like in 2014 they will leave Afg and settle in Pak.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## 53fd

As IB mentioned before, this is the interesting bit:



> *The checkpoint that was attacked had been recently set up in the Mohmand tribal area by the Pakistan army to stop Taliban fighters holed up in Afghanistan from crossing the border and staging attacks, said two government administrators in Mohmand, Maqsood Hasan and Hamid Khan.*



http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2011/11/201111265841645810.html

Here's another incident about 10 days ago when militants from Afghanistan tried to infiltrate into Mohmand:

Intruders killed in Mohmand | Provinces | DAWN.COM


----------



## Jungibaaz

BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths


----------



## 888jamie888

KarachiPunk said:


> and you are mentally retarded by birth??[/QUOTE
> Ermmm no. Just saying, you seem pretty distressed. If this forum makes you upset, then maybe you should take some time out.


----------



## Areesh

Android K-Zero said:


> We negotiated when previous incident happened, and look how much it become fruitful "2 become 28". wat next?


 
Who cares yaar. What if 28 died. We have huge a population of 180 million. And the dead soldiers also don't have a zardari or gillani or sharif or laghari as the suffix in their names. No problem if they are killed by the "allies".


----------



## Mike2011

There are so many conflicting reports. There was fighting with afghan army and air support called in. They finished the fight.
Lets wait for the investigation result.


----------



## Character-Dheela

jetti said:


> LOL looks like in 2014 they will leave Afg and settle in Pak.




May be pakistanis have to change their gun point to west from east


----------



## Waffen SS

Android K-Zero said:


> We negotiated when previous incident happened, and look how much it become fruitful "2 become 28". wat next?



So what do you suggest? A BLITZKREIG that would encircle all NATO troops in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Pakistanisage

whitenose said:


> I was reading this and had to register to ask why posters are so defeatist? NATO is not in a good place strategically it has 130000 troops dispersed across Afghanistan, from different nationalities,and without proper resupply if Pakistan mobilizes it's armed forces I'm pretty sure they could quickly overrun the isolated NATO forces and escort them out of Afghanistan.Blitzkrieg NATO would run out of ammunition in days.But it all depends on what the Pakistani military/political leadership decides to do I don't think it would be a one sides confrontation. Certainly Pakistan might suffer heavy causalities in the initial assault but as shown by the Soviets during WW2 and Chinese in the Korean war you could overrun even the most superior firepower through numbers.And again they have no resupply it would be over in a week they would simply have no ammunition left.And the Chinese fought the entire UN not even just NATO and the UN had a lot more forces and proper resupply.Pakistan should think of it's strategic interests the future is in an alliance with China. NATO simply doesn't belong in the region and will eventually leave anyway.Their presence is only temporary.




Are you really that deft that you cannot fathom the implications of escalation of hostilities against NATO. I have no doubt that Pakistan can take on Nato and even defeat Nato at high cost of life. 

What do you think will happen next ?

The USA and Europe / Japan will embargo Pakistan.

Between these countires we will lose over 80% of our Exports.

Are you prepared for this doomday scenario and its implication on Pakistani Economic meltdown ?

Or your feeble mind has not considered these ramifications for Pakistan.

We pakistanis should stop reacting in an emotional knee jerk manner and the Pakistani response should be measured and deliberate , considering all the pros and cons of a hasty emotional response.

Please understand that I am as outraged as any Pakistani for this violation of our Sovereignty.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## W.11

888jamie888 said:


> KarachiPunk said:
> 
> 
> 
> and you are mentally retarded by birth??[/QUOTE
> Ermmm no. Just saying, you seem pretty distressed. If this forum makes you upset, then maybe you should take some time out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hey, who the frack a brit say to a pakistani to go out of a pakistani forum, go some where else, go away from a pakistani forum
Click to expand...


----------



## Jango

DV RULES said:


> Pakistan wouldn't let this incident without strong retaliation. This is now the matter of national security, sovereignty and respect.
> 
> All border posts should be equipped by anti aircraft guns and shoot down every heli or aircraft crossing red line. Why air force didn't react and chased this terrorist heli and gunned down? W*hy not establish air defense command* and control center especially for mountain region of FATA to give quick support to border force? What the hell use of JCOSC?
> 
> For what we spend money on JF-17? To decorate them on Peshawar airbase? Better to send them museum. Where were at that moment air defense when NATO heli was in Pakistani boundary? & I damn sure that even if NATO helicopters entered till Peshawar or Indus river air force couldn&#8217;t get them and all F-16s and JF-17s found in moonlight dreams. Now it is need of time to made emergency air bases in FATA.
> 
> What security measures are taken by JCOSC headquarter for border forces and their posts? As it is written that authorities are trying to bring bodies from that post which difficult to access in mountains so again I want to say what army did to establish better communication in between posts and command center?
> 
> Just think about them who are there in mountain to secure border and nobody can access them if something happened there, no urgent rescue, no urgent fire support from our mighty air force or army aviation.



There is air defence command mate.


----------



## punisher

bilalhaider said:


> As IB mentioned before, this is the interesting bit:
> 
> 
> 
> NATO 'likely responsible' for Pakistan deaths - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English
> 
> Here's another incident about 10 days ago when militants from Afghanistan tried to infiltrate into Mohmand:
> 
> Intruders killed in Mohmand | Provinces | DAWN.COM



What the use, Damage is already done.


----------



## Emmie

Waffen SS said:


> So what do you suggest? A BLITZKREIG that would encircle all NATO troops in a couple of weeks.



And what do you suggest? Let the numbers rise to 2800 or 28000?


----------



## American Pakistani

THIS DUMB PPP OFFICIAL TRYING TO BEG MERCY FROM US FOR HER CHAIR. DAMN


----------



## W.11

^^ this dumb idiot was treated like a garbage by some chinese wmbassey guy , this PPP idiot is very popular


----------



## American Pakistani




----------



## 888jamie888

KarachiPunk said:


> 888jamie888 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey, who the frack a brit say to a pakistani to go out of a pakistani forum, go some where else, go away from a pakistani forum
> 
> 
> 
> Listen, you were raving about LA gangsters. Just calm yourself, this is an international forum. Just maybe take a deep breath and drink some tea.
Click to expand...


----------



## Character-Dheela

Pakistanisage said:


> Are you really that deft that you cannot fathom the implications of escalation of hostilities against NATO. I ahve no doubt that Pakistan can take on Nato and even defeat Nato at high cost of life.
> 
> What do you think will happen next ?
> 
> The USA and Europe / Japan will embargo Pakistan.
> 
> Between these countires we will lose over 80% of our Exports.
> 
> Are you prepared for this doomday scenario and its implication on Pakistani Economic meltdown ?
> 
> Or your feeble mind has not considered these ramifications for Pakistan.
> 
> We pakistanis should stop reacting in an emotional knee jerk manner and the Pakistani response should be measured and deliberate , considering all the pros and cons of a hasty emotional response.
> 
> Please understand that I am as outraged as any Pakistani for this violation of our Sovereignty.


 
Exactly!!,This is the leverage west have and pakistnis dont acknowledge it.


----------



## K-Xeroid

Areesh said:


> Who cares yaar. What if 28 died. We have huge a population of 180 million. And the dead soldiers also don't have a zardari or gillani or sharif or laghari as the suffix in their names. No problem if they are killed by the "allies".


 Well , You need to take rest...You look tierd.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Waffen SS

Emmie said:


> And what do you suggest? Let the numbers rise to 2800 or 28000?



I suggest the following:
1. Complete clean up of all the terrorist $hit in FATA and the entire country.
2. Court Marshall of death penalty to Hameed Gul and other bufoons who created this mess in the 80s.
3. Complete control over all geographic areas of the country.
4. No support to terrorists in Kashmir or any other place.
5. Complete closure of the western border.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## livingdead

Windjammer said:


> Yea, and one wonders, what appetite they have when an enemy sitting in the house gives them a bloody nose....ad hock at best.
> 
> Pan-African News Wire: Maoists Kill Dozens of Police in India Attack


That was quick response. An incident that happened in 2010, reported in pan-african wire. This will shut up all Indians.
I see this one can be used for future pakistani casualty too.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## K-Xeroid

Waffen SS said:


> So what do you suggest? A BLITZKREIG that would encircle all NATO troops in a couple of weeks.


If NATO has decided a BLITZKREIG , then one sided peace is non of use.


----------



## W.11




----------



## Windjammer

jetti said:


> Off topic troll frustrated.



And what's your category..... snooping around or just a wishful thinker.


----------



## American Pakistani

*No one to be allowed cast evil eye on Pak: PM*

Updated 3 hours ago 






MULTAN: Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani on Saturday said no one would be allowed to cast an evil eye on Pakistan's security and sovereignty and the government would defend its security at all costs.

Addressing a public meeting after laying foundation stones of different development projects for the area here, the Prime Minister while referring to the NATO helicopters attack in Mohmand Agency said, "Pakistani's solidarity and security have been attacked this morning."

He said due to this incident, he is going back to Islamabad this evening to discuss the issue with members of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet and other political leaders.

He said he had also talked to Leader of Opposition in National Assembly, Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan, Chief of Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaf Imran Khan and other leaders so that unity could be forged in the nation to tackle this issue.


----------



## A1Kaid

What's surprising is some people stating that NATO would actually go to war against Pakistan if Pakistan conducted a surgical attack against NATO troops...


----------



## Pioneerfirst

KarachiPunk said:


>



What is the need to discuss the joker lady,here?


----------



## American Pakistani

*COAS slams NATO &#8216;blatant and unacceptable act&#8217;*

Updated 4 hours ago





RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani strongly condemned NATO/ISAF &#8216;blatant and unacceptable act&#8217; resulting in loss of Pakistani soldiers&#8217; lives, according to an ISPR press release issued on Saturday.

While lauding the effective response by the soldiers of Pakistan Army in self-defence, Gen Kayani directed that all necessary steps be under taken for an effective response to the irresponsible act.

A strong protest has been launched with NATO/ISAF in which it has been demanded that strong and urgent action be taken against those responsible for the aggression, the press release added.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Pioneerfirst

Gen Jacobson said a combined force of Afghan and Nato troops were in the area when "a tactical situation developed on the ground", though he gave no more details.

He said close air support was called in, and "we're aware it's highly likely this caused casualties".

According to our pact with them they had to inform Pakistan Army before conducting any action on Afghan side with this much close to Pak border.

They are still not taking it serious,all because of our poor response.


----------



## American Pakistani

*NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR *

Updated 5 minutes ago 





RAWALPINDI: Military spokesman Major General Athar Abbas while speaking to Geo News said NATO could not make the excuse that they were chasing terrorists across the border because the area where the attack took place had been cleared. 

Abbas said NATO had been provided maps of all Pakistani check posts as reference and they had been informed about their positions. 

The military spokesman also said that the attack took place within 200-300 meters within Pakistan&#8217;s borders and added that the area had been cleared of militants.


----------



## DV RULES

mr42O said:


> news reports are not all nato supply are close. So just to fool ppl of Pakistan and creat some hype they have made this story.



I said it in previous closed thread that this was all drama and supply is running through Chaman border but to control people of Pakistan's reaction they stepped quickly giving information in news that supply is blocked.


----------



## Bratva

jetti said:


> you are also in Qatar



Nope I'm not in Qatar, I'm in Pakista Right Now, Typing this post From Lahore, Cantt Area. I'm living here, studying in university here, facing daily hardships, load sheddings, facing Bad governance but still living in Pakistan.

So when some one like you or other Indians who come here and criticize the soldiers who are actually facing everything like the common civilians like us facing then i have two words for such peoples F OFF


----------



## Always Neutral

whitenose said:


> I was reading this and had to register to ask why posters are so defeatist? NATO is not in a good place strategically it has 130000 troops dispersed across Afghanistan, from different nationalities,and without proper resupply if Pakistan mobilizes it's armed forces I'm pretty sure they could quickly overrun the isolated NATO forces and escort them out of Afghanistan.Blitzkrieg NATO would run out of ammunition in days.But it all depends on what the Pakistani military/political leadership decides to do I don't think it would be a one sides confrontation. Certainly Pakistan might suffer heavy causalities in the initial assault but as shown by the Soviets during WW2 and Chinese in the Korean war you could overrun even the most superior firepower through numbers.And again they have no resupply it would be over in a week they would simply have no ammunition left.And the Chinese fought the entire UN not even just NATO and the UN had a lot more forces and proper resupply.Pakistan should think of it's strategic interests the future is in an alliance with China. NATO simply doesn't belong in the region and will eventually leave anyway.Their presence is only temporary.



So says the pakistani origin Napolean sitting safely in NL!

Have you ever tried to find out where Pakistans supply routes are from? let me help u! its the arabian Sea and who is the big daddy there - US NAVY.


----------



## American Pakistani

*Nato deserves toughest response: Wali*

Updated 3 hours ago 





PESHAWAR: Demanding the strongest possible reaction to Nato&#8217;s blatant attack that killed 26 Pakistan troops, Awami National Party (ANP) chief Asfandyar Wali has said that anyone who would try to ambush our sovereignty --either from outside on inside-- would face dire consequences.

Taking to newsmen he said that Pakistan should launch the strictest of responses to this brazen act so that Nato/ISAF should never dare such an unprovoked as well as cowardly attack on Pakistani troops down the line.

He said Nato attacks were not only a breach of Pakistan&#8217;s integrity but a violation of United Nations&#8217; charter also.

We would lodge our say on this issue in the meeting of Cabinet Committee on Defence, said he to a query.

To a question he said, Haqqani was facing double trial at the moment, one that the government had launched against him and the other one which media was hauling him through.

Wali added that the real culprit in the 'memogate scandal' is the one who triggered this whole thing for vested interest


----------



## foxbat

Areesh said:


> Last time I saw in his interview he said Kargil was a successful operation.



for him, it was... The day light robbery he wanted to conduct of robbing Pakistan of its democratic govt was surely successful.. Pakistanis are still paying the price of that success


----------



## VSS

&#39;NATO strike revenge for Pakistan crackdown on CIA assets&#39; - YouTube


----------



## American Pakistani

Guys ISPR says NATO was not chasing militants.

NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR


----------



## Jango

So what is the outcome of the high level meeting, routes were placed for arrival of COAS , road was blocked recently, and what came out of the Corp Commanders' meeting as well?

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 PM ----------




American Pakistani said:


> Guys ISPR says NATO was not chasing militants.
> 
> NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR



There was statement on PTV that this was not a accident, this was very much planned.


----------



## Windjammer

hinduguy said:


> That was quick response. An incident that happened in 2010, reported in pan-african wire. This will shut up all Indians.
> I see this one can be used for future pakistani casualty too.



So what's your dilemma, ...the period or the source. ??
On the contrary, surprisingly unlike the Indians here, such incidents don't make the Pakistanis hyper.


----------



## Imran Khan

American Pakistani said:


> *COAS slams NATO blatant and unacceptable act*
> 
> Updated 4 hours ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani strongly condemned NATO/ISAF blatant and unacceptable act resulting in loss of Pakistani soldiers lives, according to an ISPR press release issued on Saturday.
> 
> While lauding the effective response by the soldiers of Pakistan Army in self-defence, Gen Kayani directed that all necessary steps be under taken for an effective response to the irresponsible act.
> 
> A strong protest has been launched with NATO/ISAF in which it has been demanded that strong and urgent action be taken against those responsible for the aggression, the press release added.


 
and what he done for unacceptable just    and nothing more every this guy said i order them to shot it down? even he said i deploy sams and next time i will shot it down? even he said i cant do this job sorry i resign ? nope never ever because he has no balls no honor no shame and no bloody respect of Pakistani sovereignty

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## Pakistanisage

I don't think that Pakistani people who are demanding Gen. Kiyani to resign have considered all the ramifications of this step. If Kiyani resigns then Zardari will have the option to pick the next COAS. He will pick the most unprofessional " Yes Man" he can find out of the options he has. Are you really prepared to give Zardari that kind of Power ?


----------



## salmakh84

> In a statement, the Pakistani military said that its top commander, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, praised troops at the border checkpoints for responding &#8220;in self defense to NATO/ISAF&#8217;s aggression with all available weapons,&#8221; though there was no confirmation by NATO or American officials of return fire.



Slaves will always be slaves.... 

The BEST ARMY IN THE WORLD (yeah, right.. lols).. What was it DOING in a WAR region where Army is conducting an OPERATION? There were reportedly 40 Army guys in the POST.. ALL HAVE been KILLED or INJURED and NOT ONE, I repeat, NOT ONE NATO Injury!!!

Still sleeping? 

When will we learn NATO is our real enemy! STOP SUPPORTING NATO PLEASE

People swear at me when I laugh at their comments on "Best Army in the World".. and when I post the picture of the rickshaw again (Dont blow horn. Army is sleeping)






--






--

But honestly, here is what I know will happen..


We will call Core commander meetings, defence meetings, Pass resolutions in NA, Provincial assemblies, register protests.. burn some flags..

Then Mike Mullen (or whoever is our daddy now) will visit Pakistan.. COAS will visit america.. They will say sorry sorry, wont happen again.. misunderstanding..
they will give us some more haddis (bones, like $$$), our generals will be blackmailed as usual and then our brave generals and even braver politicians will try to "resolve" this amicably, and give in to most demands, reopen NATO supply, kill some more taliban and than happy couples again...

till another further incident.. and then drama will repeat itself.

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## justanobserver

Windjammer said:


> So what's your dilemma, ...the period or the source. ??
> On the contrary, surprisingly unlike the Indians here, such incidents don't make the Pakistanis hyper.



Maoism is an internal problem. America/NATO attacking your army is and breaching your sovereignty is a completely different isue. 

So I would suggest you to be ontopic and not bring in India, just to make yourself somehow feel better


----------



## Imran Khan

Pakistanisage said:


> I don't think that Pakistani people who are demanding Gen. Kiyani to resign have considered all the ramifications of this step. If Kiyani resigns then Zardari will have the option to pick the next COAS. He will pick the most unprofessional " Yes Man" he can find out of the options he has. Are you really prepared to give Zardari that kind of Power ?



yes but you forget one thing its happen all time they select yes man but letter that yes man kick them remember zia was yes man of bhutto mushy was yes man of nawaz


----------



## American Pakistani

Pakistanisage said:


> I don't think that Pakistani people who are demanding Gen. Kiyani to resign have considered all the ramifications of this step. If Kiyani resigns then Zardari will have the option to pick the next COAS. He will pick the most unprofessional " Yes Man" he can find out of the options he has. Are you really prepared to give Zardari that kind of Power ?



There is no sovereignty of the country since ghaddari took charge, ghaddari & kiyani must demand for those murderers. MUST means MUST. Seriously 28 soilders are not joke & that also martyred deep inside Pakistani territory.


----------



## Always Neutral

justanobserver said:


> Maoism is an internal problem. America/NATO attacking your army is and breaching your sovereignty is a completely different isue.
> 
> So I would suggest you to be ontopic and not bring in India, just to make yourself somehow feel better



Anyone will being India in since its Indians who are jumping like jacks on a beanstalk on these threads

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## Donatello

Why are there not any SAMs there? A stinger would more than enough to bring these bastards down.

I don't F**king care if American retaliates, kill these fu**ing NATO terrorists! Kill them!

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## Shabz Nist

Guys....what is the Chinese reaction ? Did they issue more "warnings" yet ?


----------



## Always Neutral

American Pakistani said:


> There is no sovereignty of the country since ghaddari took charge, ghaddari & kiyani must demand for those murderers. MUST means MUST. Seriously 28 soilders are not joke & that also martyred deep inside Pakistani territory.



200 meters is hardly deep in Pakistan territory or is it?


----------



## Windjammer

justanobserver said:


> Maoism is an internal problem. America/NATO attacking your army is and breaching your sovereignty is a completely different isue.
> 
> So I would suggest you to be ontopic and not bring in India, just to make yourself somehow feel better



Kindly save your banter for your country fellows who consider this as 26/11 gift.


----------



## justanobserver

Windjammer said:


> Kindly save your banter for your country fellows who consider this as 26/11 gift.



Bringing in India/Indians again 



Always Neutral said:


> Anyone will being India in since its Indians who are jumping like jacks on a beanstalk on these threads



Considering that 50% of the members in this forum are Indians, you'll find many of us "jumping like beanstalks" on every thread


----------



## Devil Soul

Names of 2 Officers are
Major Mujahid 
Capt Usman


----------



## Pfpilot

What a complete disaster. Many of us have disagreed with Pakistan's, all give and no take, relation ship with the US...but this is way beyond politics. Far too many of our soldiers are dying in an endless quagmire. Unfortunately, our own leadership has put Pakistan in such a corner, that we have no means of reply. We can't do anything, without suffering massive consequences...whether they be economic or military related.
When people in your nation are being gunned down by locals, by their neighbors, and by allies...there could be no more depressing and helpless time to be a Pakistani.
And to the clowns who seem to be enjoying this...what is wrong with you people? How is anything about this funny?


----------



## SMC

Time for PA to launch strikes in Afghanistan saying we were going after TTP hiding in Afghanistan.


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## Devil Soul

*BREAKING NEWS: EVACUATE SHAMI AIRBASE IN 15 DAYS.....* PAK T ASK USA


----------



## RickyBahal

Interested said:


> What happened to this ?
> 
> www[ dot ]eutimes[dot]net/2011/05/china-warns-us-against-war-with-pakistan/
> 
> *&#8220;Any Attack on Pakistan Would be Construed as an Attack on China&#8221;*



Buddy this is just talk nothing more than that

Why China will react for Pakistan its Pakistan's own duty to respond to NATO or USA


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## Rafael

Defence committee has concluded its meeting and has condemned the attacks.

With the hope that this would not happen again, lets have some rest and get some sleep.

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## Devil Soul

*NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR*
Updated 23 minutes ago

RAWALPINDI: Military spokesman Major General Athar Abbas while speaking to Geo News said NATO could not make the excuse that they were chasing terrorists across the border because the area where the attack took place had been cleared. 

Abbas said NATO had been provided maps of all Pakistani check posts as reference and they had been informed about their positions. 

The military spokesman also said that the attack took place within 200-300 meters within Pakistan&#8217;s borders and added that the area had been cleared of militants.


----------



## Patriot

RAWALPINDI: Military spokesman Major General Athar Abbas while speaking to Geo News said NATO could not make the excuse that they were chasing terrorists across the border because the area where the attack took place had been cleared.

Abbas said NATO had been provided maps of all Pakistani check posts as reference and they had been informed about their positions.

The military spokesman also said that the attack took place within 200-300 meters within Pakistan&#8217;s borders and added that the area had been cleared of militants.

NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR


----------



## Shabz Nist

Rafael said:


> Defence committee has concluded its meeting and has condemned the attacks.
> 
> With the hope that this would not happen again, lets have some rest and get some sleep.


 
so that's it?


----------



## ejaz007

According to latest news from geo news USA is beig asked to close operations from shamsi air base.


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## SMC

Can we dispatch the bharati trolls back to BR? They're trigger happy after incidents like this. They can have their fun on BR all they want.

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## Rafael

Shabz Nist said:


> so that's it?



Off course. What did you expect? We go and attack them in Bagram?

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## ejaz007

NATO supply line closed permanently. This according to geo news.


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## Always Neutral

Devil Soul said:


> *BREAKING NEWS: EVACUATE SHAMI AIRBASE IN 15 DAYS.....* PAK T ASK USA



Fair enough but it would be better if GOP asked for joint inquiry whose minutes would be released for all to read. It may spring up some suprises.


----------



## Roybot

Patriot said:


> *Abbas said NATO had been provided maps of all Pakistani check posts as reference and they had been informed about their positions.
> *
> [
> NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR



That seems like a pretty dumb thing to do. Why would you give maps of your posts to an obviously hostile "ally".


----------



## Windjammer

SMC said:


> Can we dispatch the bharati trolls back to BR? They're trigger happy after incidents like this. They can have their fun on BR all they want.



Sadly the MODS are feeling generous today.

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## Rafael

bhasinusc said:


> speaks volumes ......with this attitude it will be a walkover for Indian army unless china interferes...lol




Sarcasm


----------



## Pk_Thunder

Just heard Breaking news on Tv..Army Chief briefed the Defence committee on the Nato attack.Pakistan strongly condemned the attack and decided shamsi airbase to be vacated of US troops in 15 days. Also,Nato supply line is cut off.These are serious developments taking place.Its time to give them clear message that enough is enough.no further mess with Pakistan Forces!

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## Always Neutral

bhasinusc said:


> speaks volumes ......with this attitude it will be a walkover for Indian army unless china interferes...lol



If it was a walk over than you would have walked over by now, have you?


----------



## Waffen SS

penumbra said:


> Why are there not any SAMs there? A stinger would more than enough to bring these bastards down.
> 
> I don't F**king care if American retaliates, kill these fu**ing NATO terrorists! Kill them!



SAMs? what SAMs? Do we really have some decent SAMs?


----------



## 53fd

Roybot said:


> That seems like a pretty dumb thing to do. Why would you give maps of your posts to an obviously hostile "ally".



Because they were still working in conjunction, & had a partnership in eradicating terrorists from the region. This seems to be the last straw in this partnership.


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Can Pakistan approach UN against NATO and filed a case ?


----------



## Always Neutral

Roybot said:


> That seems like a pretty dumb thing to do. Why would you give maps of your posts to an obviously hostile "ally".



You obviously have been in down under way to long. Maps are exchanged between India and Pakistan too.


----------



## tayear

I am feeling sorry for those 28 solders who died in attack of NATO .But it is very clear that pakistan defence system or millitary capability is just over rated, U.S attacked their soil at very near at their army set up(mission laden) they could,nt even noticed .in another incident this year taleban attacked their navy port, pakistan just did very ordinary approach, and now where pakistan is showing off with china and in other part of pakistan, nato deliberately killed 28 of their soldiers pakistane could'nt even give a scratch to NATO force.what the hack you people are capable of .how the hell you people be proud being a nuclear power nation where you couldn't even notice the approach of your enemy .I am afraid one day your nuclear arsenal would be hijacked by nato you people wouldn't be able to notice. shame....


----------



## 53fd

Windjammer said:


> Sadly the MODS are feeling generous today.



I've reported the Indian troll posts on China, 26/11, Kashmir, Indian Army on this thread, but alas, no action is being taken.

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## Windjammer

bhasinusc said:


> speaks volumes ......with this attitude it will be a walkover for Indian army unless china interferes...lol



You too have the right to dream. !!

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## Imran Khan

Devil Soul said:


> *BREAKING NEWS: EVACUATE SHAMI AIRBASE IN 15 DAYS.....* PAK T ASK USA




lolz hahahahhahah how many times they evacuate same base from usa its now 15th time they feed us this story

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## Always Neutral

Nitin Goyal said:


> Can Pakistan approach UN against NATO and filed a case ?



have you approached the UN when 20 BSF men were shot on the Bangladesh border? Go figure out.

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## Roybot

Always Neutral said:


> You obviously have been in down under way to long.* Maps are exchanged between India and Pakistan too.*



Yeah right.

Am sure they exchange coordinates as well.


----------



## Riz

Nothing new same old B.S, every thing will be back in track after few days

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## Shabz Nist

Lol is that all?

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## Always Neutral

bhasinusc said:


> we already have part of their country (kashmir) plus broken half their country(bangladesh). what else do u want?



Not what your GOI says that AJK is illegally occupied by Pakistan and China. Get your story straight. Bangladesh broke off not just because of India and guess during history class you must have slept a lot.

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------




Character-Dheela said:


> it depends on border



And you need some Prozac as you make no sense.

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------




Roybot said:


> Yeah right.
> 
> Am sure they exchange coordinates as well.



ofcourse you do otherwise why would your helicopter land on their helipad?

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## W.11

kayani bastard why not cut off for ever you american aid eater

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## Emmie

Probably mods are on leave today..

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## Always Neutral

Imran Khan said:


> lolz hahahahhahah how many times they evacuate same base from usa its now 15th time they feed us this story



Every time the UAE sheikhs finish their hawk hunting?


----------



## Karachihunk

Imran Khan said:


> lolz hahahahhahah how many times they evacuate same base from usa its now 15th time they feed us this story



Imran Bhai you echoed my sentiments.I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## Doctor09

bilalhaider said:


> I've reported the Indian troll posts on China, 26/11, Kashmir, Indian Army on this thread, but alas, no action is being taken.


same here i have reported posts but still no action

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## Nitin Goyal

Always Neutral said:


> have you approached the UN when 20 BSF men were shot on the Bangladesh border? Go figure out.



It is not about India so be on topic


----------



## Adnan Faruqi

SMC said:


> Can we dispatch the bharati trolls back to BR? They're trigger happy after incidents like this. They can have their fun on BR all they want.


 
1. Off topic

2. generalization

3. Breaking rules as troll calling is not allowed.

I hope Mods take note of it.

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## Imran Khan

common pak army we are not stupids its 15th time you are using same BS 

LAST TIME it was under UAE

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## Always Neutral

Nitin Goyal said:


> It is not about India so be on topic



The circumstances are same and the question was posed by an Indian so take a hike.


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## PakShaheen79

Shabz Nist said:


> Lol is that all?


sorry, we are not going to attack NATO as per Indian wet dreams! These are solid developments. ISI is quietly wrapping up CIA's secret web in and around Pakistan. Shamsi air base was a major vortex in their drone operations. Plus cutting supply lines itself can be detrimental for NATO's fate in Afghanistan. Now, I hope they will not back-track from this but implement this decision.

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## Roybot

Always Neutral said:


> ofcourse you do otherwise why would your helicopter land on their helipad?



Alright mate save us your smart alec comments now.

Just went through the other 50 page thread, and half of the posts there were made by you. Leave India out of this yeah?


----------



## W.11

PakShaheen79 said:


> sorry, we are not going to attack NATO as per Indian wet dreams! These are solid developments. ISI is quietly wrapping up CIA's secret web in and around Pakistan. Shamsi air base was a major vortex in their drone operations. Plus cutting supply lines itself can be detrimental for NATO's fate in Afghanistan. Now, I hope they will not back-track from this but implement this decision.



cut that solid bullcrap

you cowards eat away 40% of our economy to sleep


----------



## Nitin Goyal

Always Neutral said:


> The circumstances are same and the question was posed by an Indian so take a hike.



You are again getting offtopic and it is a genuine question because killing sleeping soldiers intentionally does qualified as a crime.


----------



## 53fd

Imran Khan said:


> common pak army we are not stupids its 15th time you are using same BS
> 
> LAST TIME it was under UAE



Actually, the Shamsi airbase has not been operational for some time, but it was still under the control of the US.

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## bc040400065

Now we have to see if they can stop drone attacks or not? Everyone will see how much committed they are to all these statements of national soverignty etc.


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## Peregrine

This Action by Brave Pak fauj, is what, you term as "Goongloon say mitti jharna"

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## Imran Khan

lolz saloon ko chuutiiya banana bhi nhi ata again and again same base khali kara rahy hai use damn chaklala sargodha base name this time 

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> Actually, the Shamsi airbase has not been operational for some time, but it was still under the control of the US.



hahhahahahaha hardcore supporters will support them even army lose whole country

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## mr42O

They decided to cut all supplies and americans have to leave shamsi base in 15 days. But lets say if there are only words and what if USA *NO* whats next ? I have heard these crap comitee before i dont not belive them

lol i thought Shamsi wasnt used by American..... these bastards dont have any control on Pakistan every thing is in americans hand and puppet in goverment and amry are just there to drink our blood. If Pakistani awam does not come streets now either i dont want to

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## PakShaheen79

KarachiPunk said:


> cut that solid bullcrap
> 
> you cowards eat away 40% of our economy to sleep idiots



Defence spending of Pakistan armed forces is around 2.5% of GDP. Get your facts right before shouting.

Did you ever shouted same for rest of the 97.5% which goes to corruption and mismanagement and project like Rental Power Plants? I seriously doubt that.

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## Always Neutral

Roybot said:


> Alright mate save us your smart alec comments now.
> 
> Just went through the other 50 page thread, and half of the posts there were made by you. Leave India out of this yeah?



Don't stand near a fire if you don't like the heat.

I am not the many Indians here advocating Pakistan attack Nato alongwith China so that their wet dream comes true.

---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------




Nitin Goyal said:


> You are again getting offtopic and it is a genuine question because killing sleeping soldiers intentionally does qualified as a crime.


 
Well if it was done with the intentions of Ketchup brigadiar or Patribal than yes.


----------



## W.11

this army needs same revolution from idiots like government


----------



## 53fd

KarachiPunk said:


> cut that solid bullcrap
> 
> you cowards eat away 40% of our economy to sleep



Pakistan spends 2.8% of its GDP on the military, not 40%.

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## W.11

PakShaheen79 said:


> Defence spending of Pakistan armed forces is around 2.5% of GDP. Get your facts right before shouting.
> 
> Did you ever shouted same for rest of the 97.5% which goes to corruption and mismanagement and project like Rental Power Plants? I seriously doubt that.



this army is the biggest chain of corruption in our country

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## Adnan Faruqi

*Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths - BBC*







Brigadier-General Carsten Jacobson says the incident will be thoroughly investigated

It is "highly likely" that Nato aircraft were behind a deadly overnight raid on a Pakistani border checkpoint, a Nato spokesman has told the BBC.

Brigadier-General Carsten Jacobson said Nato was investigating how the incident occurred and sent condolences.

Pakistani officials have responded with fury to the incident, which they say killed at least 24 soldiers.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani called it "outrageous" and convened an emergency meeting of the cabinet.

Pakistan's government promptly closed supply routes across its territory to Nato in Afghanistan. There are reports of some trucks on the main routes being told to turn back.

BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths


----------



## Pk_Thunder

PakShaheen79 said:


> sorry, we are not going to attack NATO as per Indian wet dreams! These are solid developments. ISI is quietly wrapping up CIA's secret web in and around Pakistan. Shamsi air base was a major vortex in their drone operations. Plus cutting supply lines itself can be detrimental for NATO's fate in Afghanistan. Now, *I hope they will not back-track from this but implement this decision*.



I think they will not back track this time. bohat ho gaya ab. Pakistan should also consider to boycott the future scheduled meetings with Nato and should stop cooperation in the final settlement of Afghanistan problem.

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## Nitin Goyal

PakShaheen79 said:


> Defence spending of Pakistan armed forces is around 2.5% of GDP. Get your facts right before shouting.
> 
> Did you ever shouted same for rest of the 97.5% which goes to corruption and mismanagement and project like Rental Power Plants? I seriously doubt that.


a little correction total budget and gdp of a country are two different thing. Total Budget is way lower than the GDP. Infact pakistan's defence budget is close to 4 % of gdp but i don't know how much it makes to the total budget.


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## Imran Khan

PakShaheen79 said:


> sorry, we are not going to attack NATO as per Indian wet dreams! These are solid developments. ISI is quietly wrapping up CIA's secret web in and around Pakistan. Shamsi air base was a major vortex in their drone operations. Plus cutting supply lines itself can be detrimental for NATO's fate in Afghanistan. Now, I hope they will not back-track from this but implement this decision.



yes yes even nato bomb us daily we are worse dheet qaum  phaty to phaty shaan na ghaty

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## W.11

give kayani to the public, we need to chitrol that bastard


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## Roybot

Always Neutral said:


> Don't stand near a fire if you don't like the heat.
> 
> I am not the many Indians here advocating Pakistan attack Nato alongwith China so that their wet dream comes true.



NATO just killed 28 Pakistani Army personnel, in an unprovoked attack, and you think comments made by some Indian trolls on an internet forum is all what it takes for Pakistan to turn hostile?

Get a grip.

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## Always Neutral

Imran Khan said:


> common pak army we are not stupids its 15th time you are using same BS
> 
> LAST TIME it was under UAE



I agree Shamsi vacation has become like a stuck record. Why can't GOP annouce a a free and fair inquiry as per the Coroners Court Inquiry in UK and let the world see who is guilty?

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## JanjaWeed

Isn't this airbase owned by UAE? Pakistan may ask NATO to stop using their airspace.. but not the base!! correct me if i'm wrong..


----------



## Always Neutral

Roybot said:


> NATO just killed 28 Pakistani Army personnel, and you think comments made by some Indian trolls on an internet forum is all what it takes for Pakistan to turn hostile?
> 
> Get a grip.



get a grip yourself. After I log off I am not bothered who i drink my next lager with or what his countryman said on this forum.


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## PakShaheen79

KarachiPunk said:


> this army is the biggest chain of corruption in our country



If you have proof, please go to media or court or bring it here. Show me one single scandal like RPP, Steel Mills, PIA, Railways etc. in PA.small scale corruption is everywhere but seriously man, if you people really thinkthat PA can or must fight against US/NATO in a frontal war then i can feel sorry for that. 

They are doing what they can in this kind of situation. PA was never meant to fight against US/NATO .... It is an India-centric military.


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## W.11

ISI and army are among the worst corrupt organistans

army had complete force and backing behind freeing raymond davis, but they gave excuse of govt

airbase karachi terror happened, no terrorists caught again same excuse

2 army guys died in september, no action, same excuse

drone attacks happen daily, again same excuse, govt

now a record phanty of 28 army guys died, same excuse

---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------




PakShaheen79 said:


> If you have proof, please go to media or court or bring it here. Show me one single scandal like RPP, Steel Mills, PIA, Railways etc. in PA.small scale corruption is everywhere but seriously man, if you people really thinkthat PA can or must fight against US/NATO in a frontal war then i can feel sorry for that.
> 
> They are doing what they can in this kind of situation. PA was never meant to fight against US/NATO .... It is an India-centric military.



i dont want to die sorry, 

your army is corrupt and buzdil, sirf awaam ko maarti hai, aur dosro se maar padte hai, we all know karachi operation, 1971 operation

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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> I agree Shamsi vacation has become like a stuck record. Why can't GOP annouce a a free and fair inquiry as per the Coroners Court Inquiry in UK and let the world see who is guilty?



NATO. And they have apologised for that as well.


----------



## Riz

Imran Khan said:


> common pak army we are not stupids its 15th time you are using same BS
> 
> LAST TIME it was under UAE


 
LOL imran bhai keyani sahib ke wahe baat hay k .....ab k maar to main bataon ....ab k maar to ma bataon......pata nahe kahan kahan say yeh sab mulk k karooron rupay kharch kar k ikatha hoay mulk ke salamti ka faisla karnay .........aor faisla daikho yeh to yeh beyan hamary shaikh rasheed sab bhe day sakty thay

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## Abu Zolfiqar

all and every cooperation with ISAF/NATO should be thoroughly "re-considered"

the border should remain sealed shut; not even ants should be allowed to go over.

28 families are effected by this callous and very stupid act by NATO forces --- they will pay for this

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## Aktavist_KKWC

These moves are from a weak government to appease the population who feel rightly led down. Shutting down the airbase to Amerircans means little, drones are mostly taking off from Afghanistan to attack people in Pakistan. 

The real retaliation will be covert, next summer will be like hell on Afghan earth for the ISAF troops.

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## r3alist

Think as a realist.

A great tragedy has happened, but the question is what to do next?

Do you seek revenge?

Or do you leverage the situation?

Both of those may infect overlap, don't forget that 

I think cutting that NATO supplies for 2 weeks will really hurt NATO.

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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> NATO. And they have apologised for that as well.



We have apologised for the deaths as it makes no sense killing our allies! We have not accepted to the motives or the facts stated by ISPR. There is a big difference in that.


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## Devil Soul

KarachiPunk said:


> ISI and army are among the worst corrupt organistans
> 
> army had complete force and backing behind freeing raymond davis, but they gave excuse of govt
> 
> airbase karachi terror happened, no terrorists caught again same excuse
> 
> 2 army guys died in september, no action, same excuse
> 
> drone attacks happen daily, again same excuse, govt
> 
> now a record phanty of 28 army guys died, same excuse




The last time i checked the Gov claimed that Army takes order from the Civil Gov.....


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## W.11

r3alist said:


> Think as a realist.
> 
> A great tragedy has happened, but the question is what to do next?
> 
> Do you seek revenge?
> 
> Or do you leverage the situation?
> 
> Both of those may infect overlap, don't forget that
> 
> I think cutting that NATO supplies for 2 weeks will really hurt NATO.



and an idiot smiles, is this matter of smiling??, you idiot??


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## American Pakistani

Still no appreciable statement from Army or Govt.


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## 53fd

I don't think an apology will work here. I believe the supply routes to Afghanistan will be permanently closed, the US networks inside the country completely clamped on, the border will remain closed, all co-operation between Pakistan & the NATO Forces will be reconsidered, & the effects of this event might be felt hard in Afghanistan. The next few days will be quite intriguing.


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## PakShaheen79

KarachiPunk said:


> ISI and army are among the worst corrupt organistans
> 
> army had complete force and backing behind freeing raymond davis, but they gave excuse of govt
> 
> airbase karachi terror happened, no terrorists caught again same excuse
> 
> 2 army guys died in september, no action, same excuse
> 
> drone attacks happen daily, again same excuse, govt
> 
> now a record phanty of 28 army guys died, same excuse
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> i dont want to die sorry,
> 
> your army is corrupt and buzdil, sirf awaam ko maarti hai, aur dosro se maar padte hai, we all know karachi operation, 1971 operation



And this is the same army due to which you sleep comfortably your warm bed room. My army well,... ok... and where do you live? huh, ... on Mars? or you are some Indian troller pretending as a Pakistani??

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## Always Neutral

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> 28 families are effected by this callous and very stupid act by NATO forces --- they will pay for this



I sympathise with your post and *THEY* should pay be it PA or NATO.


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## longbrained

Shut down the border permanently. Enough is enough. Daily drone attacks, several helicopter attacks each year and even the spies running around the cities killing ordinary people. Pakistan air force should have given chase to slow moving helicopters inside Afghanistan and shot them down.


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## Devil Soul

KarachiPunk said:


> and an idiot smiles, is this matter of smiling??, you idiot??


How old r u?
Stop going off topic & no personal attacks...


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## 53fd

Let's just say that this event serves to be a "game changer", one that could have very serious consequences in Afghanistan.


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## W.11

this army is only a land mafia, just look at the big lands grabbed by army, airforce in karachi, big big areas

even my house is built on the land brought from an army guy

these army people get big big lands, they become landlords

give all these corrupt generals to the public, public sudhare ge ab in ko, set them on fire

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## American Pakistani

They are trying to tame the fury of awam. What nonsense people PA has got.

Govt & Pakistan Army must demand NATO to hand over those murderers.


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## 53fd

Let's just say that this event serves to be a "game changer", one that could have very serious consequences in Afghanistan.


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## Always Neutral

longbrained said:


> Shut down the border permanently. Enough is enough. Daily drone attacks, several helicopter attacks each year and even the spies running around the cities killing ordinary people. Pakistan air force should have given chase to slow moving helicopters inside Afghanistan and shot them down.



I doubt the Helo even knew at whom it was launching the Hellfire at. The post was 200 meters from a poorly demarcated IB and the maps there as stated in the ISPR article has inaccuracies of several miles.


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> We have apologised for the deaths as it makes no sense killing our allies! We have not accepted to the motives or the facts stated by ISPR. There is a big difference in that.



Then that is not my problem. My side has made it crystal clear that map references of all Pakistani posts are with NATO. First they vecatted there check posts on the Afghan side of Durend Line to let TTP terrorists cross-over into Afghanistan when Pakistan army was chasing them ... and now NATO is destroying / hitting Pakistani chek-posts on our side which we made to stop these TTP terrorists. Cambodian solution drama is not acceptable here. ISPR has made it clear that the excuse of chasing the militants cannot be used this time.


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## W.11

PakShaheen79 said:


> And this is the same army due to which you sleep comfortably your warm bed room. My army well,... ok... and where do you live? huh, ... on Mars? or you are some Indian troller pretending as a Pakistani??



sleep comfortably??

yaar hum ko beqaquf samjha hai kia, tell me one guy in KPK who sleeps peacefully

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## Aktavist_KKWC

Imran speaks


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## regular

bc040400065 said:


> Now we have to see if they can stop drone attacks or not? Everyone will see how much committed they are to all these statements of national soverignty etc.


Sir! We gonna see 3ree times more drone attacks from now onwards...


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## Imran Khan

JanjaWeed said:


> Isn't this airbase owned by UAE? Pakistan may ask NATO to stop using their airspace.. but not the base!! correct me if i'm wrong..


 
all this is utter BS by these guys to make us fool nothing more

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## W.11

one cant base pakistani government, military system on britain, pakistan is ree from britain, its systems must go now, pakistan must become a pakistan not a former brit coloney

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## Emmie

I just realized it today that some of our senior Pakistani members, especially overseas ones, think altogether different. We Pakistanis deserve to be treated the way we are being treated by the west for not having unity and consensus when it comes to national security.

I was astonished when I read a post by a Pakistani who is residing in Australia. He says " we Pakistanis are being sold in the name of religion and patriotism".. How easily he disgraced Shudaas of Badr, Khundak, Uhud, 1948, 1965, 1971 etc...

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## Devil Soul




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## Abu Zolfiqar

Developereo said:


> *Let this incident go down in history as the beginning of the chain that resulted in NATO's ignominious retreat from Afghanistan.* That will be the best revenge for the deaths of these martyrs.



they've already lost the war


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## SQ8

What is ironic is that the post had been used for flag meetings between ISAF and PA.
It like attacking your favorite starbucks and not remembering where it was.

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## regular

Pk_Thunder said:


> Just heard Breaking news on Tv..Army Chief briefed the Defence committee on the Nato attack.Pakistan strongly condemned the attack and decided shamsi airbase to be vacated of US troops in 15 days. Also,Nato supply line is cut off.These are serious developments taking place.Its time to give them clear message that enough is enough.no further mess with Pakistan Forces!


The same old B.S. Mantra to fool the already foolish public/Awaam/nation.....since this govt/kiyani came into power.....the sellouts traitors.....

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## Aktavist_KKWC

A cowardly attack by the terrorist state of America. Pakistan will use all it's covert means to make sure their last few years in Afghanistan are hell for invading soldiers.


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## SQ8

KarachiPunk said:


> this army is only a land mafia, just look at the big lands grabbed by army, airforce in karachi, big big areas
> 
> even my house is built on the land brought from an army guy
> 
> these army people get big big lands, they become landlords
> 
> give all these corrupt generals to the public, public sudhare ge ab in ko, set them on fire



Agreed, the Generals deserve no love.
But those killed were our boys who have been toiling it out day and night without saying a word.
They only deserve our love and respect.. They deserve justification for their senseless death.

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## regular

KarachiPunk said:


> sleep comfortably??
> 
> yaar hum ko beqaquf samjha hai kia, tell me one guy in KPK who sleeps peacefully


Sir! they mean to sleep peacefully within the grave after wel all gonna get killed by these drones/helis of US/NATO so that they can collect $$$ on our innocent bloodz.....

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## Always Neutral

Santro said:


> What is ironic is that the post had been used for flag meetings between ISAF and PA.
> It like attacking your favorite starbucks and not remembering where it was.



Santro if you went to zurich you will see a UBS bank every 100 meters and when the article says that the maps are inaccurate upto 5 miles you will understand the problem. 

Lastly you are spreading a falsehood as not one iota of proof has been rendered by anybody to show NATO and PA met at this post.


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## BATMAN

While Haqqani was leaving for Pakistan.. he held secret meetings with anti Pakistan lobby in US.

If PA cannot persuade PM to block Haqqani's flight back to US than they cannot fight this war.

Infact, all airports of Pakistan should be taken over by army and no political figure or state official shall be allowed to take any flight abroad.

Other news is that, Indian army is marching towards the Pakistan border!


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## Devil Soul

BATMAN said:


> While Haqqani was leaving for Pakistan.. he held secret meetings with anti Pakistan lobby in US.
> 
> If PA cannot persuade PM to block Haqqani's flight back to US than they cannot fight this war.
> 
> *Other news is that, Indian army is marching towards the Pakistan border!*


SOURCE????


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## Character-Dheela

why not pakistanis shift their forces from east to west and sign peace agreement or permanent cease fire with india??
indian never crossed loc


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## Jango

The intelligence sharing with ISAF also to be reviewed, Shamsi airbase to be vacated and supplies halted. Serious developments, but want to wait for the implementation.

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## W.11

PakShaheen79 said:


> And this is the same army due to which you sleep comfortably your warm bed room. My army well,... ok... and where do you live? huh, ... on Mars? or you are some Indian troller pretending as a Pakistani??



haan bhai bharat samajh ker is mulk ke do char aur tukre kerdo mashriki pakistan ki tarha

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## BATMAN

Devil Soul said:


> SOURCE????



Classified.


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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> Santro if you went to zurich you will see a UBS bank every 100 meters and when the article says that the maps are inaccurate upto 5 miles you will understand the problem.
> 
> Lastly you are spreading a falsehood as not one iota of proof has been rendered by anybody to show NATO and PA met at this post.



What kind of proof do you want?

pictures, footages?

BTW, a footage has been released on Express news showing the soldiers right after the attack, they are carrying their ammo and 'charapyees' . The injured lay on them and the medics are tending to them, bandaging them. Helis flying above, people on radios. Just shows how fast they evacuated the post.


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## American Pakistani

Aktavist said:


> Imran speaks



Imran Khan please come on roads, this elites & rulers will do nothing, you should demand NATO for handing those murderers of 28 martyrs.

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## Edevelop

NATO is running out of money to run this war on terror. We should stay calm but yet again be some what a little aggressive to pressure them on this issue. i.e banning supplies, kicking them out of shamsi air base. The way we are controlling and reacting to this currently is fine. If there is too much trouble then we can always go to U.N, but now i;m thinking that our own military solution in Afghanistan is not the realistic solution. 

, U.S. just purchased 1967... retired harrier aircrafts from U.K. What can they possibly do with that junk in the future?... The western countries are in deep $hit now economically and socially. No worries, their forces will return back home soon.


----------



## r3alist

KarachiPunk said:


> and an idiot smiles, is this matter of smiling??, you idiot??


 
What is it you want? Justice? Freedom? Revenge?


----------



## Rafael

Some people never stop amazing me with their conspiracy theories.

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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> What kind of proof do you want?
> 
> pictures, footages?
> 
> BTW, a footage has been released on Express news showing the soldiers right after the attack, they are carrying their ammo and 'charapyees' . The injured lay on them and the medics are tending to them, bandaging them. Helis flying above, people on radios. Just shows how fast they evacuated the post.



The photos / minutes of the meeting held by the PA and NATO at that post.


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## BATMAN

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> all and every cooperation with ISAF/NATO should be thoroughly "re-considered"
> 
> the border should remain sealed shut; not even ants should be allowed to go over.
> 
> 28 families are effected by this callous and very stupid act by NATO forces --- they will pay for this



IMO.. Karzai's home shall be demolished with missile strike and this would be the best revenge.


----------



## Adnan Faruqi

Devil Soul said:


> SOURCE????



brain fart, don't worry. In these times there will be many conspiracy theories like that.

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## Jango

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *all and every cooperation with ISAF/NATO should be thoroughly "re-considered*"
> 
> the border should remain sealed shut; not even ants should be allowed to go over.
> 
> 28 families are effected by this callous and very stupid act by NATO forces --- they will pay for this



The defence committee has proposed this. And blockade of supplies, and and review of intelligence sharing understanding.


----------



## Pakistanisage

KarachiPunk said:


> cut that solid bullcrap
> 
> you cowards eat away 40% of our economy to sleep




How is it your Economy, False flagger. You dont make a dime and live in the Azizabad slum of Altaf Hussain.

What have you ever done for Pakistani Economy, Indian Impostor.


----------



## Always Neutral

cb4 said:


> NATO is running out of money to run this war on terror. We should stay calm but yet again be some what a little aggressive to pressure them on this issue. i.e banning supplies, kicking them out of shamsi air base. The way we are controlling and reacting to this currently is fine. lol, U.S. just purchased 1967... retired harrier aircrafts from U.K. What can they possibly do with that junk in the future?... The western countries are in deep $hit now economically and socially. No worries, their forces will return back home soon.



Good since you are winning the war it would be pointless retaliating against a looser like NATO.


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## Adnan Faruqi

BATMAN said:


> IMO.. Karzai's home shall be demolished with missile strike and this would be the best revenge.



Then it will be called "Mia ka gussa, murgi par utara". 

what karzai haveto do with it, if you have rage take on NATO/USA.


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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> The photos / minutes of the meeting held by the PA and NATO at that post.



They might be impossible, but I can assure you they did take place. inside sources.


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## Agni5000

Lets analyze what could be pakistan's reaction.

- Stop supply route - Done already. (pakistan will loose whatever money and jobe it gets)
- Support taliban openly to fight.

I don't see any other thing pakistan can do.

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## Peregrine

The actual causality rate is far more higher than being stated............ its in triple figures......

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## Always Neutral

Well you are not the only one with inside sources or are you? Proof of the pudding is in its taste. Even DG ISPR did not venture down that path. Maybe it was a secret place for meeting the good taliban in the past and hence a fair target. I am speculating just like you.

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## BATMAN

tayear said:


> I am feeling sorry for those 28 solders who died in attack of NATO .But it is very clear that pakistan defence system or millitary capability is just over rated, U.S attacked their soil at very near at their army set up(mission laden) they could,nt even noticed .in another incident this year taleban attacked their navy port, pakistan just did very ordinary approach, and now where pakistan is showing off with china and in other part of pakistan, nato deliberately killed 28 of their soldiers pakistane could'nt even give a scratch to NATO force.what the hack you people are capable of .how the hell you people be proud being a nuclear power nation where you couldn't even notice the approach of your enemy .I am afraid one day your nuclear arsenal would be hijacked by nato you people wouldn't be able to notice. shame....



Have you ever seen any such drama before bharti lap dog ghadari took over?

We are approaching end game... Pakistan need to start with cleaning internal *****.

Stop smuggling of bharti weapons into Pakistan stop issuing visa to foreigners, this will already be a big blow to the anti Pakistan strategy.


----------



## Character-Dheela

Peregrine said:


> The actual causality rate is far more higher than being stated............ its in triple figures......



you mean 100+,who told you??
may be 10-12 more but not high as you are suggesting


----------



## Agni5000

Peregrine said:


> The actual causality rate is far more higher than being stated............ its in triple figures......



Are you series? 100 soldiers


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## Karachihunk

It is time to reclaim our lost sovereignty by shooting down the American drones. This is the best way to show that the blood of our soldiers who were cold bloodedly killed in this incident has not gone in vain.

It is useless to protest or temporarily halting supply line that can be done on some other instant not this time. If our chief or commander in chief cannot ensure the safety & dignity of those who protect our motherland then they should put a bullet in their head. It is still graceful than this humiliation.

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## Always Neutral

Peregrine said:


> The actual causality rate is far more higher than being stated............ its in triple figures......



If it was a company HQ than I doubt. If the whole company was located there with support elements you maybe right. All the more reason for PA to be transparent and reveal the truth.

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## 53fd

This probably spells the end of any effective co-operation between Pakistan & the NATO, unless something significantly "positive" happens to revive the relationship.


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## Safriz

IN CASE NOBODY READ THIS
NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR

THEY WERENT CHASING ANY TERRORISTS.


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## Adnan Faruqi

Peregrine said:


> The actual causality rate is far more higher than being stated............ its in triple figures......



Source?????????? or its just a conspiracy theory???????


----------



## 53fd

This probably spells the end of any effective co-operation between Pakistan & the NATO, unless something significantly "positive" happens to revive the relationship.


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## Safriz

POLITICIANS WILL UNITE ON THIS ONE THING
Nato deserves toughest response: Wali


----------



## Agni5000

bilalhaider said:


> This probably spells the end of any effective co-operation between Pakistan & the NATO, unless something significantly "positive" happens to revive the relationship.



What positive? apart from dollars in your mind.

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## W.11

Peregrine said:


> The actual causality rate is far more higher than being stated............ its in triple figures......



whats your source???


----------



## Edevelop

BATMAN said:


> Have you ever seen any such drama before bharti lap dog ghadari took over?
> 
> We are approaching end game... Pakistan need to start with cleaning internal *****.
> 
> Stop smuggling of bharti weapons into Pakistan stop issuing visa to foreigners, this will already be a big blow to the anti Pakistan strategy.



Yo,
once we have a strong government, at least better than the current one with obviously a strong foreign policy then India can't do anything about this.

Every western country is going away from this war on terror issue. Major countries in NATO are doing whatever they can in their last days to do as much destruction they can possible do. Soon, they will all forget what was going on in our country and all will be focusing on their own internal problems. Be smart and calm this is the best approach.


----------



## SQ8

Always Neutral said:


> Santro if you went to zurich you will see a UBS bank every 100 meters and when the article says that the maps are inaccurate upto 5 miles you will understand the problem.
> 
> Lastly you are spreading a falsehood as not one iota of proof has been rendered by anybody to show NATO and PA met at this post.



Whats an iota of proof?
Pictures?? NATO commanders admitting it? Reuters??

Tell me.. do all streets in Zurich have UBS banks in exactly the same position with EXACTLY the same surroundings?
Also.. if I was looking for a UBS bank.. I would have to be extremely ..EXTREMELY daft to still walk into a HSBC..


----------



## Always Neutral

safriz said:


> IN CASE NOBODY READ THIS
> NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR
> 
> THEY WERENT CHASING ANY TERRORISTS.



Are we supposed to take DG, ISPR as the oracle of truth. if what he says is true and the area is clear of TTP/safe, fly or let Journalists travel there and let them report. I know that will never happen.


----------



## American Pakistani

Agni5000 said:


> Lets analyze what could be pakistan's reaction.
> 
> - Stop supply route - Done already. (*pakistan will loose whatever money and jobe it gets*)
> - Support taliban openly to fight.
> 
> I don't see any other thing pakistan can do.



What money dude???? Pakistan had never received a single cent for those convoys, first. second, Military assistance had been blocked since a year ago & civilian assistance had been cut down to very low. Other than this you should know that Pakistanis want full stop for this aid that is actually bribe for polititions to work for others interests.

What Pakistan can do is demand NATO to hand over those murderers, if NATO reject this than Pakistan must pressurize them via China, Saudia, Russia, Turkey etc still if they do not hand those murderers than Pakistan must contact International Court of Justice.

Also Pakistan needs to raise this issue in international arena, shake the world by diplomatic means must be the strategy, it means raise this issue in Europe, North America, MiddleEast, Russia, China, Australia, Japan etc diplomatically. Currently the elites & rulers are taking this issue very lightly, just few protest came out. What nonsense is this????


----------



## r3alist

Karachihunk said:


> It is time to reclaim our lost sovereignty by shooting down the American drones. This is the best way to show that the blood of our soldiers who were cold bloodedly killed in this incident has not gone in vain.
> 
> It is useless to protest or temporarily halting supply line that can be done on some other instant not this time. If our chief or commander in chief cannot ensure the safety & dignity of those who protect our motherland then they should put a bullet in their head. It is still graceful than this humiliation.


 
So your solution for revenge is shoot down an unmanned drone? You clown.

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

BTW AMERICA HAS 10-15 DAYS WORTH OF SUPPLIES, SO TO BE EFFECTIVE PAKISTAN NEEDS TO CUT SUPPLIES FOR 3 WEEKS.


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> Santro if you went to zurich you will see a UBS bank every 100 meters and when the article says that the maps are inaccurate upto 5 miles you will understand the problem.
> 
> Lastly you are spreading a falsehood as not one iota of proof has been rendered by anybody to show NATO and PA met at this post.



And you are trying to sell the idea that in this age of sophistication and technologies, NATO was relaying on paper maps. Ever heard of Coordinates. Map can have problem but not GPS coordinate and as per ISPR NATO has all these coordinate (reference points) with them about Pakistani check posts.

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------




Always Neutral said:


> Santro if you went to zurich you will see a UBS bank every 100 meters and when the article says that the maps are inaccurate upto 5 miles you will understand the problem.
> 
> Lastly you are spreading a falsehood as not one iota of proof has been rendered by anybody to show NATO and PA met at this post.



And you are trying to sell the idea that in this age of sophistication and technologies, NATO was relaying on paper maps. Ever heard of Coordinates. Map can have problem but not GPS coordinate and as per ISPR NATO has all these coordinate (reference points) with them about Pakistani check posts.


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## SinoChallenger

The US is a despicable creature! A surprise attack on an ally!

China and Russia should move quickly to bring Pakistan formally into SCO. Then Pakistan can officially terminate all cooperation with USA and cut off all supplies. Then China and Russia can supply advanced weapons to Taliban to kill or capture all US troops in Afghanistan, who now have no supplies of fuel at all.

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## Always Neutral

Santro said:


> Whats an iota of proof?
> Pictures?? NATO commanders admitting it? Reuters??



Santro, come on you know what i mean?

Post the exact evidence which shows NATO and PA people met at that post. Please do.


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## Rafael

bilalhaider said:


> This probably spells the end of any effective co-operation between Pakistan & the NATO, unless something significantly "positive" happens to revive the relationship.



Like getting some new F-16s and Apaches or some million dollars for the khakis and babus? 

Just wondering what would be the fair price of those 28 martyrs.

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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> And you are trying to sell the idea that in this age of sophistication and technologies, NATO was relaying on paper maps. Ever heard of Coordinates. Map can have problem but not GPS coordinate and as per ISPR NATO has all these coordinate (reference points) with them about Pakistani check posts.
> 
> .




Did you read the article of DG ISPR, before your verbal vomit? Please read and come back again.


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## Doctor09

Rafael said:


> Like getting some new F-16s and Apaches or some million dollars for the khakis and babus?
> 
> Just wondering what would be the fair price of those 28 martyrs.


you are talking about 28 martyrs sir but no one can pay the price of life of a our single soldier ....
We have sold our honor that is why we are seeing this day .... As a nation its our death


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## Always Neutral

SinoChallenger said:


> The US is a despicable creature! A surprise attack on an ally!
> 
> China and Russia should move quickly to bring Pakistan formally into SCO. Then Pakistan can officially terminate all cooperation with USA and cut off all supplies. Then China and Russia can supply advanced weapons to Taliban to kill or capture all US troops in Afghanistan, who now have no supplies of fuel at all.



Put your money where your mouth is? Crocodile tears only dehydrates you.

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## Safriz

Always Neutral said:


> Are we supposed to take DG, ISPR as the oracle of truth. if what he says is true and the area is clear of TTP/safe, fly or let Journalists travel there and let them report. I know that will never happen.



I rather have some JF-17s sent over to bagram or whatever airbase the choppers came from and have them bombed.


----------



## SQ8

Always Neutral said:


> Santro, come on you know what i mean?
> 
> Post the exact evidence which shows NATO and PA people met at that post. Please do.



Find me anything that gives the location of ANY meeting down to the co-ordinates of flag meeting between ISAF and PA..
Google it all you want.. the most you will get is a general area.

Did you not just say maps are inaccurate?

Whats probably happened is some trigger happy guy saw the post, thought it to be enemy positions.. called up air support.
and that is that.

More likely is that some Afghan "intel" gave the post as location of Taliban hideout..
that is all ISAF needs as an excuse to use munitions.

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## American Pakistani

nuclearpak said:


> The intelligence sharing with ISAF also to be reviewed, Shamsi airbase to be vacated and supplies halted. Serious developments, but want to wait for the implementation.



We need more than this 

-raise the issue internationally,
-demand for those murderers
-put pressure via China, Russia, Saudia, Turkey etc
-also put diplomatic pressure on European countries, North American countries, Japan, Australia etc to condemn this act & hand over those murderers.


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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> And you are trying to sell the idea that in this age of sophistication and technologies, NATO was relaying on paper maps. Ever heard of Coordinates. Map can have problem but not GPS coordinate and as per ISPR NATO has all these coordinate (reference points) with them about Pakistani check posts..




same can be said about the PA when they killed 13 of their own men by bombing them recently.


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## mr42O

American Pakistani said:


> We need more than this
> 
> -raise the issue internationally,
> -demand for those murderers
> -put pressure via China, Russia, Saudia, Turkey etc
> -also put diplomatic pressure on European countries, North American countries, Japan, Australia etc to condemn this act & hand over those murderers.



egg kao - murgai ke piche na paro egg see bhe jao ge


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## Roybot

Santro said:


> *Whats probably happened is some trigger happy guy saw the post, thought it to be enemy positions.. called up air support.*
> and that is that.



From BBC,



> *Military sources told the BBC's Quentin Sommerville in Paktika province in Afghanistan that a US-Afghan special forces mission came under fire from a position within Pakistan.*
> 
> They received permission from the headquarters of *Nato's Isaf mission to fire back at what they believed was a suspected Taliban training camp.*



BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths

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## American Pakistani

There is absoulutely no price of those 28 martyrs, little can be acheived if Pakistan will get those murderers in its custody & put them on military trial in Pakistan.

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## Devil Soul

*NATO attack: Suspend supply lines, vacate Shamsi air base in 15 days, DCC decides*
By APP / Reuters
Published: November 26, 2011
Pakistan has decided to close the logistics supply line to NATO/ISAF forces stationed in Afghanistan with immediate effect, and to ask United States to vacate Shamsi air base within 15 days following the early morning raid by NATO forces on a Pakistani border checkpost on Saturday.
The decision was taken in an emergency meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, chaired by Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani. The meeting was attended by Federal Ministers, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Services Chiefs including General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.
The meeting, which took decisions in light of the Parliament resolution of May 14, 2011 (after the US raid on Abbottabad) decided that land supply route of NATO/ISAF supplies through Pakistan will be suspended, while US forces stationed at Shamsi air base in Balochistan will be asked to leave. The meeting further resolved that that the Pakistani people and the armed forces would safeguard the Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty at all costs.
The Prime Minister will take the Parliament into confidence on the whole range of measures regarding matters relating to Pakistan&#8217;s future cooperation with US/NATO/ISAF, in the near future.
The DCC strongly condemned the attack by NATO/ISAF aircrafts on Pakistani border posts in the Mohmand Agency which had resulted in the deaths of 24 security personnel and injuring 12 soldiers of the Pakistan Army.
Balochistan bans entry of NATO/ISAF supply trucks
Mimicing a move by the federal government, the government of Balochistan has banned the entry and exit of containers bearing fuel and other supplies for Afghanistan based ISAF and NATO troops
Chief Minister, Nawab Mohammad Aslam Raisani, has issued an order asking district authorities at Lasbela and Jaffarabad to bar NATO oil tankers and containers from entering Balochistan with immediate effect.
According to a statement issued here on Saturday night, it said that the bar was in reaction to the NATO air strikes on the Pakistani border posts in Mohmand Agency.
Containers and oil tankers carrying fuel and military hardware were stopped near Chaman, a township that shares Paksitan&#8217;s border with Afghanistan. Border security forces did not allow the Afghanistan bound trucks to cross the border.
Another convoy of NATO oil tankers and containers was on its way to Chaman from Dasht area was stopped near Akhtarabad, a suburb of Quetta. The convoy was escorted by Balochistan Levies and security forces.
Long queue was seen in Chaman and Akhtarabad as they were not allowed to proceed further.
On average 200 NATO containers and oil tanker cross Chaman border everyday. &#8220;We were asked to hold NATO containers and oil tankers,&#8221; a senior official said, adding that foolproof security was being provided to NATO trucks in order to thwart any attack from hostile elements.
NATO suppliers are escorted by personnel of Levies and security forces since they are often targeted by armed groups in Balochistan.
Top echelon condemn &#8216;unacceptable&#8217; checkpost attack
Earlier, the attacks had drawn a strong reaction from Pakistan with NATO supplies being halted, the US Ambassador to Pakistan being summoned and condemnations from the highest offices in Pakistani government.
Pakistani president Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani, and the army chief, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani all condemned the attack, terming it &#8220;unacceptable&#8221;.
President&#8217;s spokesperson, Farhatullah Babar said that the President had called the attack by NATO/ISAF helicopters, resulting in loss of precious lives of Pakistani soldiers, as unacceptable. President Zardari said a strong protest had also been registered with NATO and ISAF over the incident and they have been asked to take urgent action against those responsible for this aggression.
The powerful Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, directed in a statement issued by the Pakistani military that &#8220;all necessary steps be under taken for an effective response to this irresponsible act.
&#8220;A strong protest has been launched with NATO/ISAF in which it has been demanded that strong and urgent action be taken against those responsible for this aggression,&#8221; the statement continued.
Gilani had summoned Cabinet&#8217;s Defence Committee for a meeting which is currently underway at the PM house.
Protests lodged with US, NATO/ISAF
Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir on Saturday called in US Ambassador Cameron Munter to lodge a strong protest on the unprovoked NATO/ISAF attack.
The Foreign Secretary conveyed to the US Ambassador that the unprovoked attack by NATO/ISAF had deeply incensed the Government and the people of Pakistan, according to a press statement issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
&#8220;The President, the Prime Minister and the Government of Pakistan strongly condemn the attacks which were totally unacceptable, constituted a grave infringement of Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty, were violative of international law and a serious transgression of the oft conveyed red lines and could have serious repercussions on Pakistan-US/NATO/ISAF cooperation&#8221;, the statement read.
The Ambassador was informed that the Prime Minister had convened an emergency meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet to evaluate the situation arising from these uncalled for attacks by NATO/ISAF forces.
Strong protests have also been lodged in Washington and at the NATO Headquarters in Brussels, the statement added. As reported earlier, Pakistani Embassy in Washington had lodged a verbal complaint with the State Department.
The US embassy in Islamabad had offered condolences.
NATO supplies halted for &#8216;security reasons&#8217;
NATO supply trucks and fuel tankers bound for Afghanistan were stopped at the town of Jamrud in Khyber tribal region near the city of Peshawar hours after the raid, officials said.
One official though said that the supply route had been shut for security reasons.
&#8220;There is possibility of attacks on NATO supplies passing through the volatile Khyber tribal region, therefore we sent them back towards Peshawar to remain safe,&#8221; he said.
The border crossing at Chaman in Balochistan was also closed, Frontier Corps officials said.
Read more: natoattack


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## Character-Dheela

r3alist said:


> So your solution for revenge is shoot down an unmanned drone? You clown.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------
> 
> BTW AMERICA HAS 10-15 DAYS WORTH OF SUPPLIES, SO TO BE EFFECTIVE PAKISTAN NEEDS TO CUT SUPPLIES FOR 3 WEEKS.



They get supplies from CAR region too..and trying to arrange rest from that region


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## Karachihunk

American Pakistani said:


> We need more than this
> 
> -raise the issue internationally,
> -demand for those murderers
> -put pressure via China, Russia, Saudia, Turkey etc
> -also put diplomatic pressure on European countries, North American countries, Japan, Australia etc to condemn this act & hand over those murderers.



hahaha are we in such position to put pressure on Japan,Australia and European Countries.Russia,China was also against the war on libya and you know very well what happened ? We have to fight ourselves, no one gonna fight for our cause.


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## W.11

Karachihunk said:


> It is time to reclaim our lost sovereignty by shooting down the American drones. This is the best way to show that the blood of our soldiers who were cold bloodedly killed in this incident has not gone in vain.
> 
> It is useless to protest or temporarily halting supply line that can be done on some other instant not this time. If our chief or commander in chief cannot ensure the safety & dignity of those who protect our motherland then they should put a bullet in their head. It is still graceful than this humiliation.


 
uuuff buddy, twice you confused me, i thought i never wrote that by looking at replies in the first glane


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> Did you read the article of DG ISPR, before your verbal vomit? Please read and come back again.



Yes i have read that. On one hand you are not agree with him when he says that NATO was not chasing terrorists and it was an attack deliberately and at the same time you are so sure about the anomalies in maps. Your own people have expressed sorrow over the attack which mean even they accept that what they did was not RIGHT thing to do. Now you are here just to sell us some seriously wired kind of explanation. Sorry, we are not interested. Afghanistan has become a strategic black hole for entire region just because of your epic failure in that country and now you want out putting blame on Pakistan for that.

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## Always Neutral

Santro said:


> Find me anything that gives the location of ANY meeting down to the co-ordinates of flag meeting between ISAF and PA..
> Google it all you want.. the most you will get is a general area.
> 
> Did you not just say maps are inaccurate?
> 
> Whats probably happened is some trigger happy guy saw the post, thought it to be enemy positions.. called up air support.
> and that is that.
> 
> More likely is that some Afghan "intel" gave the post as location of Taliban hideout..
> that is all ISAF needs as an excuse to use munitions.



Sorry anybody with any service background will know all Flag meeting are duly recorded and minutes are signed.

Copy with photos are sent to higher formations for info and approval, unless its something about black ops.

the trigger Happy guy as you assume would not even know who his helfire will kill but the overall Tactical cdr who ordered it will.

Fly in the Journalist since as per PA its a safe area and lets get some unbiased reports.

Its amusing to see after stating that there have been several meetings between NATO and PA at this post you demure to provide any proof


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## Nitin Goyal

American Pakistani said:


> There is absoulutely no price of those 28 martyrs, little can be acheived if Pakistan will get those murderers in its custody & put them on military trial in Pakistan.



That is just wishful thinking. Don't forget raymond davis incident. Taking the case to the international tribunal would be the best case scenario and this can help Pakistan to improve the image of Pakistan in the world. Follow the legal ways to take them head on.


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## turkish

Nothing is gonna happen!!! If it was American soldiers there would have been tomahawk reply.....RIP the soldiers !!

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## American Pakistani

mr42O said:


> egg kao - murgai ke piche na paro egg see bhe jao ge



This is the reason of failure of Pakistan, you are supporter of IK & i think IK said once that "hum haar kabhi nahi maantay". For God sake 28 soilders are martyred it is not a joke, think seriously & post. 

P.S By your post you sound like zardari who when came in power said that "Pakistan ko kabhi India say kisi field may muqabla nai karna chahiye" & you see the dreadful fall of economy(which was booming in Musharraf era) after that?


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## pakdefender

I see absloute ZERO gains for us in contuning to have any meanigful co-operation between NATO/US and Pakistan. These rats basically got out a lot of concessions in the aftermatch of 9/11 by pulling of that stunt and claiming the higher ground .. time has come to tell them to go **** them selves and We have to turn the screws slowly but surely and I can see it happening that in the aftermath of this incident the fherangis will be chansed out first from with in Pakistan and then the heat will be truned on inside afghanistan.


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## W.11

Pakistanisage said:


> How is it your Economy, False flagger. You dont make a dime and live in the Azizabad slum of Altaf Hussain.
> 
> What have you ever done for Pakistani Economy, Indian Impostor.



apni auqaat dekh ker baat kero illeterate guy


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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yes i have read that. On one hand you are not agree with him when he says that NATO was not chasing terrorists and it was an attack deliberately and at the same time you are so sure about the anomalies in maps. Your own people have expressed sorrow over the attack which mean even they accept that what they did was not RIGHT thing to do. Now you are here just to sell us some seriously wired kind of explanation. Sorry, we are not interested. Afghanistan has become a strategic black hole for entire region just because of your epic failure in that country and now you want out putting blame on Pakistan for that.



There two very subtle differences

1. Yes we are sorry at this moment as PA lost serviceman and nothing wrong with that.

2. No we donot accept the blame for the above till a full inquiry is conducted into it and you must fly in Journalists to this so called safe area to prove us wrong. If you don't do that then you have something to hide not us.


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> same can be said about the PA when they killed 13 of their own men by bombing them recently.


And this explains how much you really know about advanced military weapons. Which Pakistani artillery unit deployed in FATA has GPS support like NATO helicopter????


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## Imran Khan

American Pakistani said:


> There is absoulutely no price of those 28 martyrs, little can be acheived if Pakistan will get those murderers in its custody & put them on military trial in Pakistan.




hahahahahah unlimited dreams of baggers . they will not even told you sorry for this . apni auqaat main raho ghulamo

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## mr42O

Roybot said:


> From BBC,
> 
> 
> 
> BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths



remeber americans heli shooting at news repoters and civilians in iraq ? You still belive in crap coming out from there mouth. Isnt it easy that americans release video from helicopter ? I bet they will never and every one knows why.


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## American Pakistani

Karachihunk said:


> hahaha are we in such position to put pressure on Japan,Australia and European Countries.Russia,China was also against the war on libya and you know very well what happened ? We have to fight ourselves, no one gonna fight for our cause.



We can put pressure diplomatically, even if they do nothing but still this will send a message that Pakistan won't tolerate these kind of mistakes in future & same time Pakistan should work very hard with unity to bring those murderers to justice in Pakistan


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## Always Neutral

turkish said:


> Nothing is gonna happen!!! If it was American soldiers there would have been tomahawk reply.....RIP the soldiers !!



just like for the poor BSF guys?


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## Hulk

Is there a Media spin department in PA


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## mr42O

*The Pakistani army said in a statement that two border posts had been attacked by helicopters and fighter aircraft, killing 24 people and leaving 13 injured.*


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## Imran Khan

turkish said:


> Nothing is gonna happen!!! If it was American soldiers there would have been tomahawk reply.....RIP the soldiers !!




lolz even it was hizbullah hamas guys they fire rockets on israel . but you know holy cow pak army ? they are solders for wear uniforms and boats not for fight .when time come they and there supporters said USA NATO are big powers ehheehee as they are waiting for war with nepal .


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## waraich66

Friendship of US is not good , what we gain from last 60 years of US Friendship?

Hur Chopo


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## Bl[i]tZ

I've no way to verify this claim but I'm reading the following on on twitter - Pakistani Army units came to aid of Taliban sanctuary under attack by US Special Forces. Americans requested close air support.


Source - Tarek Fatah twitter a/c (Pakistani Canadian political activist, writer, and broadcaster)

He says the source is - Afghan and US spokesmen.


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## American Pakistani

Imran Khan said:


> hahahahahah unlimited dreams of baggers . they will not even told you sorry for this . apni auqaat main raho ghulamo



Was not expecting this from you, sir.


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## W.11

American Pakistani said:


> We can put pressure diplomatically, even if they do nothing but still this will send a message that Pakistan won't tolerate these kind of mistakes in future & same time Pakistan should work very hard with unity to bring those murderers to justice in Pakistan



diplomacy of pakistan is what was shpwn during hussain haqqani saga, our diplomats are worst sell outs, when they go abroad they think of thmeselves as more foreign then pakistani

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## VelocuR

What amazing me Pakistan Soldiers (28 martyrs) didn't know how to shoot helicopters? What kind of disciplines they lack?

Stop NATO supplies or other minors doesn't affect NATO at all. Next few days, it will return normal relations. Nothing new.


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> There two very subtle differences
> 
> 1. Yes we are sorry at this moment as PA lost serviceman and nothing wrong with that.
> 
> 2. No we donot accept the blame for the above till a full inquiry is conducted into it and you must fly in Journalists to this so called safe area to prove us wrong. If you don't do that then you have something to hide not us.



Oh yeah baby! Now this is royal justice in 21st century.

I lost my service men and now the onus of proof is also on my shoulders. GREAT. This cannot be any more ridiculous than it is already. And what explanation would you give thousands of Pakistani killed in drone strikes? were they also MISTAKEN by INNOCENT NATO forces?

Then why on Earth sir, I must accept what you are saying here? What journalist would investigate there? It is a check post on a hill top with no populated area in vicinity and attack was carried out in dark.... ? What you want to investigate. I cannot accept that NATO while flying daily missions in this area was not aware of the fact that if it is a check post of Pakistan army or a Taliban training camp.


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## Safriz

so there are two possibilities...Either NATO are so dumb that they cant differentiate between a mapped marked and well established military check post and terrorist camp...or they simply dont care about Pakistani loss of life..
Ia m with the second option.

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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> And this explains how much you really know about advanced military weapons. Which Pakistani artillery unit deployed in FATA has GPS support like NATO helicopter????



You just proved my point. The poor PA Company CO, reported the camp location wrongly and in that case it was not our fault.


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## PakShaheen79

Bl[i]tZ;2328310 said:


> I've no way to verify this claim but I'm reading the following on on twitter - Pakistani Army units came to aid of Taliban sanctuary under attack by US Special Forces. Americans requested close air support.
> 
> 
> Source - Tarek Fatah twitter a/c (Pakistani Canadian political activist, writer, and broadcaster)
> 
> He says the source is - Afghan and US spokesmen.



Means you are trying to tell us that Salala checkpost of PA is actually a sanctuary of Taliban. Get a life man. PA is not that stupid. If for the sake of argument i accept this, do yo really think that PA would allow Taliban to use there own check post for attacking on NATO/US forces?

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## MZUBAIR

I will praise GOV, Gillani and COAS Kiyani....if they act according to the following decision\order



> ISLAMABAD: *The Federal Cabinet's Defence Committee on Saturday ordered the United States to vacate the Shamsi airbase within 15 days and closed NATO supply lines into Afghanistan in response to a deadly cross-border NATO air strike.*
> 
> The military&#8217;s top brass including CJSC, COAS and the Naval and Air Force chiefs attended the meeting.
> 
> The meeting was also attended by the Interior, Defence, Foreign, Information and Finance Ministers while senior minister Pervaiz Elahi and the secretary defence were also in attendance.
> 
> The Defence Committee that met under the chairmanship of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, hours after the Nato strike in Pakistan that killed 24 troops, categorically said that attacks on Pakistan check posts were unacceptable.
> 
> It was also decided that the Prime Minister would take the Parliament into confidence on Pak-US relations. Parliament will also be taken into confidence over the shape of Pakistan's future relations with Nato and ISAF.
> 
> Condemning the Nato attack, the committee said that the strike violated international laws.
> 
> The defence body further said that no compromise would be made on the sovereignty and protection of the country. "People and army will ensure Pakistan's sovereignty and protection at all cost."
> 
> It termed the attacks on Pakistan check posts as completely unacceptable and rejected the labeling of today's event as accidental.

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## Imran Khan

American Pakistani said:


> We can put pressure diplomatically, even if they do nothing but still this will send a message that Pakistan won't tolerate these kind of mistakes in future & same time Pakistan should work very hard with unity to bring those murderers to justice in Pakistan




Pakistan won't tolerate these kind of mistakes in future ?????//

how many times we can use this ghisa pita dailoge? ab to is se bahir niklo 

ab ke to mar ab ke to mar ab ke to mar .ahahhahhaahahah

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## SQ8

Always Neutral said:


> Sorry anybody with any service background will know all Flag meeting are duly recorded and minutes are signed.
> 
> Copy with photos are sent to higher formations for info and approval, unless its something about black ops.
> 
> the trigger Happy guy as you assume would not even know who his helfire will kill but the overall Tactical cdr who ordered it will.
> 
> Fly in the Journalist since as per PA its a safe area and lets get some unbiased reports.
> 
> Its amusing to see after stating that there have been several meetings between NATO and PA at this post you demure to provide any proof



So where is the serving guy that can give you the proof?
Do you have proof for any of the meetings that happened? their minutes?
You are chasing straws here.. 
You cant provide yourself what you ask for.


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## Pakistanisage

KarachiPunk said:


> apni auqaat dekh ker baat kero illeterate guy




Yes I can see you are the epitome of literacy and knowledge.

What a literate response. Judging from your statement above , It is obvious you come from very noble and educated family. I am highly impressed by your credentials and your Intelligence quotient. The statement above speaks volume about your highly developed mind and character and the nobility of your family background.


P.S. By the way, Illiterate is spelled like this ( and not illeterate , like you spelled). For a highly literate gentleman, you certainly are challenged by spelling simple words.


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## Devil Soul



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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> You just proved my point. The poor PA Company CO, reported the camp location wrongly and in that case it was not our fault.



Don't twist my words here. it was in context of your post where u mentioned that same can be said about the PA men who mistakenly killed their own men. I am amazed that how fast you people can came up with theories... first it was denial, then it was attacked as PA was helping Taliban and now errors in map. what is next BTW?

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## Always Neutral

Santro said:


> So where is the serving guy that can give you the proof?
> Do you have proof for any of the meetings that happened? their minutes?
> You are chasing straws here..
> You cant provide yourself what you ask for.



Yet I demure to point fingers while you state with certainity.

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------




PakShaheen79 said:


> Don't twist my words here. it was in context of your post where u mentioned that same can be said about the PA men who mistakenly killed their own men. I am amazed that how fast you people can came up with theories... first it was denial, then it was attacked as PA was helping Taliban and now errors in map. what is next BTW?



Yet you are scared to take journalists to this place already cleared of TTP as per PA? What have you to hide?


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## Hulk

Every time sovereignty is compromised, it is followed by such announcement and then back to normal.

Remember in Wiki Leaks the Pakistani politicians told the Americans that they will protest in public but support in private.

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## Bl[i]tZ

PakShaheen79 said:


> Means you are trying to tell us that Salala checkpost of PA is actually a sanctuary of Taliban. Get a life man. PA is not that stupid. If for the sake of argument i accept this, do yo really think that PA would allow Taliban to use there own check post for attacking on NATO/US forces?



Lets first verify this statement but Americans have claimed in the past that at times Pakistani army "aids" the insurgents crossing the border.


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## VelocuR

"vacate the Shamsi airbase within *15 days* and closed NATO supply lines into Afghanistan"

just 15 days and temporary shut supply lines? A weak response. 


28 martyrs didn't know how to shoot helicopters, wow! What's point of thousand MANIPADS in the inventory?


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## pakdefender

This is an undeclared war in between 'allies' and we have to do the needful in this situation to return all the 'favours' that these 'allies' have bestowed up us.

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## Always Neutral

Imran Khan said:


> Pakistan won't tolerate these kind of mistakes in future ?????//
> 
> how many times we can use this ghisa pita dailoge? ab to is se bahir niklo
> 
> ab ke to mar ab ke to mar ab ke to mar .ahahhahhaahahah



Imran you post with very good sense of humor, just a request please post in English more often as you are one of the posters I like to read.

No Offense mate.

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## Imran Khan

indianrabbit said:


> Every time sovereignty is compromised, it is followed by such announcement and then back to normal.
> 
> Remember in Wiki Leaks the Pakistani politicians told the Americans that they will protest in public but support in private.



yes yes dear we are also not stupid its just bla bla eat dinner and go home on luxury cars .they are just fooling and public is being fooled .damn they never change a single word same as last time every word is same .if a suicide blast happen at this meeting and these bastards die pakistan can come out from mess .

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## Tangent

..why PA can not shoot down Drones... as a reaction to this? Drones have killed more pakistanis than this raid ( although this raid killed service men and drone kills civilians).
For this incidence NATO has ofered condolences , but for drone, never such thing . Drones attack are delibrate and pre-planned .

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## Imran Khan

RaptorRX707 said:


> "vacate the Shamsi airbase within *15 days* and closed NATO supply lines into Afghanistan"
> 
> just 15 days and temporary shut supply lines? A weak response.
> 
> 
> 28 martyrs didn't know how to shoot helicopters, wow! What's point of thousand MANIPADS in the inventory?


 
they don't have any manpads on east nor they ordered to shot even USA bomb order is run and hide not to shot . i am sure an LMG is not bad even


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> Yet you are scared to take journalists to this place already cleared of TTP as per PA? What have you to hide?



Hmmm... So this is your new theory. Because journalist are not allowed to go there so this check post was a legitimate target for NATO and entire Pakistan army government and media are liars. Don't you think this is little over-stretched like Iraqi WMDs?

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## SinoChallenger

Always Neutral said:


> Put your money where your mouth is? Crocodile tears only dehydrates you.


LOL...... I forgot to include "kill or capture all _UK_ troops in Afghanistan" as well. Modern warfare needs petro. When the supply lines are cut, you won't even have electricity. You are back to 19th century warfare.

And then the Taliban will let you know the true meaning of "medieval."


----------



## A1Kaid

That is a good question, why didn't the 28 soldiers not take down the helicopter this kind of stuff overrides orders to cease fire.

If this was a significant outpost I would imagine they would have the capability and the weaponry available to shoot down the helicopter. Failure to do so is partly the soldiers fault.


----------



## TopCat

Pakistan should wait till NATO withdraws from Afhganistan. You will have your days my friend ..


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## Bl[i]tZ

I'm curious if any one has found out if it was attack helis (Apache) or A-10/AC-130 CAS aircraft or both?


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## A1Kaid

That is also a lie I think by the Government saying the soldiers were "asleep" because another report came out saying the soldiers fired back with every weapon they had... Something is not right here.

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## HANI

Bl[i]tZ;2328352 said:


> Lets first verify this statement but Americans have claimed in the past that at times Pakistani army "aids" the insurgents crossing the border.



There clames doesn,t mean that they are telling the truth ok and 2ndly they killed our soldiers and now just BS that they are supporting Talibans under attack ...........................


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## SQ8

Always Neutral said:


> Yet I demure to point fingers while you state with certainity.




Certainty that comes from living in the country and knowing what goes on from interpersonal relationships with the right people.


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## VelocuR

Good reminding:

*"Remember in Wiki Leaks the Pakistani politicians told the Americans that they will protest in public but support in private"*

It is famous Pakistani styles and tactics.

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## Always Neutral

SinoChallenger said:


> LOL...... I forgot to include "kill or capture all _UK_ troops in Afghanistan" as well. Modern warfare needs petro. When the supply lines are cut, you won't even have electricity. You are back to 19th century warfare.
> 
> And then the Taliban will let you know the true meaning of "medieval."



Comeback after you have the guts to cross Taiwan Straits? The only military victory you have till date is in 1962 and Tiannmman Square. China has never supported Pakistan militarily like we did for China otherwise you would be speaking Japanese now.


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## Bl[i]tZ

SinoChallenger said:


> LOL...... I forgot to include "kill or capture all _UK_ troops in Afghanistan" as well. Modern warfare needs petro. When the supply lines are cut, you won't even have electricity. You are back to 19th century warfare.
> 
> And then the Taliban will let you know the true meaning of "medieval."



Just wanted to put things into perspective about the NATO supplies through Pakistan into Afghanistan.

In 2009/10, when Pakistan had blocked the NATO supplies, 85% used to pass through Pakistan. They actually went to half rations that time immediately. 

On May 18, 2011, Lt. Gen. Mitchell Stevenson, deputy chief of staff for logistics, told the Senate Armed Services readiness subcommittee that U.S. brings in 60 percent to Afghanistan from the north through Central Asia and the Baltic states and 40 percent from the south through Pakistan Army.

US intends to bring it down to 25% eventually.

The Army keeps 45 days worth of fuel on the ground in Afghanistan so that operations can withstand severe disruptions to its supply lines,

Source U.S. Explores Pakistan Supply Route Alternatives - Defense News

I don't think blocking supplies by Pakistan will have any effect on US war machine. I think within a fortnight or even before US would issue an apology and this matter will be resolved.


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## TopCat

A1Kaid said:


> That is a good question, why didn't the 28 soldiers not take down the helicopter this kind of stuff overrides orders to cease fire.
> 
> If this was a significant outpost I would imagine they would have the capability and the weaponry available to shoot down the helicopter. Failure to do so is partly the soldiers fault.



I dont think a outpost like that equipped with surface to air missile and not authorized to engage with NATO. They probably there as border guard and chasing insurgent Talibans.


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## Always Neutral

Santro said:


> I live in Pakistan.. you dont.



Yet you remain gullible?


----------



## Tangent

A1Kaid said:


> That is also a lie I think by the Government saying the soldiers were "asleep" because another report came out saying the soldiers fired back with every weapon they had... Something is not right here.



THe real story may be very different than ..as being understood now- As "Always Neutral" said in one of his post.
And then Kayani will resume supplies and other things...


----------



## pakdefender

NATO/US fherangis think that its ok to kill brown people ( or any other non-white non-christain souls ) , they need to be taught a lesson in humanity ( rather in in-humanity ) to bring them to their senses and afghanistan is the just the right place to deliver this lesson!

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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> Hmmm... So this is your new theory. Because journalist are not allowed to go there so this check post was a legitimate target for NATO and entire Pakistan army government and media are liars. Don't you think this is little over-stretched like Iraqi WMDs?



Just as your post that we gain anything by killing soldiers of our allies?


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## SQ8

A1Kaid said:


> That is also a lie I think by the Government saying the soldiers were "asleep" because another report came out saying the soldiers fired back with every weapon they had... Something is not right here.



Perhaps ISPR first thought to amplify the "heinous" nature of the attack by stating the soldiers were sleeping.
Now they realize that the ISAF may have proof of PA soldiers firing at the helis..

---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------




Always Neutral said:


> *Yet you remain gullible*?



Said the man living on an island far away from this place.


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## PakShaheen79

A1Kaid said:


> That is also a lie I think by the Government saying the soldiers were "asleep" because another report came out saying the soldiers fired back with every weapon they had... Something is not right here.



And whose report is that. BBC, FOX, NATO or Pentagon? And even if they did fire back .. I think it is justified to fire BACK in self defense.


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## Bl[i]tZ

HANI said:


> There clames doesn,t mean that they are telling the truth ok and 2ndly they killed our soldiers and now just BS that they are supporting Talibans under attack ...........................



No absolutely it doesn't mean that what Americans are saying is truth.

But from the American side the story that is coming seems to be -

Pakistan Army units came to aid of Taliban sanctuary under attack by US Special Forces.
Americans requested close air support. 

The whole thing depends if this claim is true. I've not heard any authentic source reporting this. This is this one Pakistani Canadian claiming that this is straight from A'stan NATO sources.


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## A1Kaid

Whatever went down at that site must have been epic.

There are survivors, some soldiers are wounded but alive they can tell us what happened. Now will the public be told. The soldiers that survived will be investigated and interviewed.


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## Always Neutral

Santro said:


> Perhaps ISPR first thought to amplify the "heinous" nature of the attack by stating the soldiers were sleeping.
> Now they realize that the ISAF may have proof of PA soldiers firing at the helis..
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Said the man living on an island far away from this place.



But has visited Pakistan as well as Afghanistan.


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## Imran Khan

Always Neutral said:


> Imran you post with very good sense of humor, just a request please post in English more often as you are one of the posters I like to read.
> 
> No Offense mate.


 
ok sir i will try but can't promise as i am 99% desi guy lolz

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## Tangent

Santro said:


> Perhaps ISPR first thought to amplify the "heinous" nature of the attack by stating the soldiers were sleeping.
> Now they realize that the ISAF may have proof of PA soldiers firing at the helis..
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------



....Wait for 2 days and many more "surprises" will surprise us all........


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## Always Neutral

A1Kaid said:


> Whatever went down at that site must have been epic.
> 
> There are survivors, some soldiers are wounded but alive they can tell us what happened. Now will the public be told. The soldiers that survived will be investigated and interviewed.



Do you want to take a guess? NOOOOOOOOOOO


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## pakdefender

I hope the public storms the US emabssy in Pakistan in the aftermath of this ( while the authorities look the other way ) ... what can we do make this happen ?

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## 53fd

Santro said:


> Perhaps ISPR first thought to amplify the "heinous" nature of the attack by stating the soldiers were sleeping.
> Now they realize that the ISAF may have proof of PA soldiers firing at the helis..



So what if they weren't sleeping? Does it negate the fact that NATO helicopters infiltrated deep into Pakistani territory, & opened fire on troops? What were the soldiers supposed to do, not fire back?


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## Always Neutral

pakdefender said:


> I hope the public storms the US emabssy in Pakistan in the aftermath of this ( while the authorities look the other way ) ... what can we do make this happen ?



Why not try it Ireland? Lead by example?


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## Jango

A1Kaid said:


> That is also a lie I think by the Government saying the soldiers were "asleep" because another report came out saying the soldiers fired back with every weapon they had... Something is not right here.



Everybody is not asleep. Some people are awake on night duty.

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## Always Neutral

bilalhaider said:


> So what if they weren't sleeping? Does it negate the fact that the NATO helicopters infiltrated deep into Pakistani territory, & opened fire on troops? What were the soldiers supposed to do, not fire back?



Is 200 meters deep?


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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> Just as your post that we gain anything by killing soldiers of our allies?



Bacause lately your ally started to roll back the entire investment on cloak and dagger spy network stretching from Islamabad to Washington and showed defiance on Pak-Iran gas pipeline to annoy your majesty.


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## A1Kaid

PakShaheen79 said:


> And whose report is that. BBC, FOX, NATO or Pentagon? And even if they did fire back .. I think it is justified to fire BACK in self defense.



PA is apparently stating this according to a BBC news article.



> The Pakistani army said in a statement that two border posts had been attacked by helicopters and fighter aircraft, killing 24 people and leaving 13 injured.
> 
> It said Pakistani troops fired back as best they could.




BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths


----------



## SinoChallenger

Always Neutral said:


> Comeback after you have the guts to cross Taiwan Straits? The only military victory you have till date is in 1962 and Tiannmman Square. China has never supported Pakistan militarily like we did for China otherwise you would be speaking Japanese now.


You want me to repost here how I humiliated you in the other thread? You and I both know UK got spanked by Deng Xiaoping. 



Bl[i]tZ;2328401 said:


> Just wanted to put things into perspective about the NATO supplies through Pakistan into Afghanistan.
> 
> In 2009/10, when Pakistan had blocked the NATO supplies, 85% used to pass through Pakistan. They actually went to half rations that time immediately.
> 
> On May 18, 2011, Lt. Gen. Mitchell Stevenson, deputy chief of staff for logistics, told the Senate Armed Services readiness subcommittee that U.S. brings in 60 percent to Afghanistan from the north through Central Asia and the Baltic states and 40 percent from the south through Pakistan Army.
> 
> US intends to bring it down to 25% eventually.
> 
> The Army keeps 45 days worth of fuel on the ground in Afghanistan so that operations can withstand severe disruptions to its supply lines,
> 
> Source U.S. Explores Pakistan Supply Route Alternatives - Defense News
> 
> I don't think blocking supplies by Pakistan will have any effect on US war machine. I think within a fortnight or even before US would issue an apology and this matter will be resolved.


Once Pakistan joins SCO (obviously india will not be joining), Russia and Central Asian states will also terminate supplies to Afghanistan. And then 100,000 US and allied troops will have fun times with the Taliban -- *mano-a-mano, no more video game bombing from miles away!* Let's see how long they last without electricity or food.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> Is 200 meters deep?



Even 20 meter and NATO has no UN mandate to strike inside Pakistan let alone on a military check post.


----------



## A1Kaid

nuclearpak said:


> Everybody is not asleep. Some people are awake on night duty.




Exactly, Government is lying, Government should have been hanged a long time ago.


----------



## Pakistanisage

Kick the US forces out of Shamsi Base. They have no basis for setting up their shop on Pakistani soil and spread their state sponsored terror.


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## 53fd

Bl[i]tZ;2328401 said:


> Just wanted to put things into perspective about the NATO supplies through Pakistan into Afghanistan.
> 
> In 2009/10, when Pakistan had blocked the NATO supplies, 85% used to pass through Pakistan. They actually went to half rations that time immediately.
> 
> On May 18, 2011, Lt. Gen. Mitchell Stevenson, deputy chief of staff for logistics, told the Senate Armed Services readiness subcommittee that U.S. brings in 60 percent to Afghanistan from the north through Central Asia and the Baltic states and 40 percent from the south through Pakistan Army.
> 
> US intends to bring it down to 25% eventually.
> 
> The Army keeps 45 days worth of fuel on the ground in Afghanistan so that operations can withstand severe disruptions to its supply lines,
> 
> Source U.S. Explores Pakistan Supply Route Alternatives - Defense News
> 
> I don't think blocking supplies by Pakistan will have any effect on US war machine. I think within a fortnight or even before US would issue an apology and this matter will be resolved.



49% of all supply routes (including the fuel for the drones) go through Pakistan, the Army has 45 days worth of fuel, but what about the other supplies besides fuel? Most of the non-essential supplies flow through the Central Asian route, whereas most of the essential supplies needed for the war flow through Pakistan.


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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> Bacause lately your ally started to roll back the entire investment on cloak and dagger spy network stretching from Islamabad to Washington and showed defiance on Pak-Iran gas pipeline to annoy your majesty.



Than there are better ways for us to reciprocate? Just stop giving you aid. Iran is no friend of yours.


----------



## waz

Bl[i]tZ;2328419 said:


> No absolutely it doesn't mean that what Americans are saying is truth.
> 
> But from the American side the story that is coming seems to be -
> 
> Pakistan Army units came to aid of Taliban sanctuary under attack by US Special Forces.
> Americans requested close air support.
> 
> The whole thing depends if this claim is true. I've not heard any authentic source reporting this. This is this one Pakistani Canadian claiming that this is straight from A'stan NATO sources.



Unless the Pakistani soldiers excel at sleepwalking fighting, I can't see how they came to the aid of a Taliban sanctuary. Also why now? Why at 02.00 in the morning when Taliban enclaves have been attacked before and the army has sat back. 

The reason for the toll being so large was that they were unprepared and mostly all in close vicinity of each other, similar to the conditions you see in sleeping quarters. 

Like you said yourself there is no link, no news, no nothing. So do the board a favour and stop typing up such rumours, regardless of where they are from.

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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> Well you are not the only one with inside sources or are you? Proof of the pudding is in its taste. Even DG ISPR did not venture down that path. Maybe it was a secret place for meeting the good taliban in the past and hence a fair target. I am speculating just like you.



Well I ain't speculating. It was the Company HQ of the area, and you are saying it was a secret meeting place, on a hilltop??? Puh-lease.

You are speculating without any logic here.


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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> Even 20 meter and NATO has no UN mandate to strike inside Pakistan let alone on a military check post.



tell the pukhtoons on both side of the borders and they will laugh and shoot you happily. Let the international press in and the truth will be known.


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## Agni5000

Normally how many soldier guard at boarder post?


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## jamal18

bilalhaider said:


> Pakistan spends 2.8% of its GDP on the military, not 40%.



As somebody has already pointed out, GDP is totally different from governments annual budget. It might be 40% of annual budget.

I do know Pakistan budget= miliitary spending + government debt repayment + administration cost.

Leaves virtually nothing for development etc. Last time I asked, I was told Pakistan spends less on education than Nepal.

My two paisa.


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## PakShaheen79

A1Kaid said:


> PA is apparently stating this according to a BBC news article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths


 It was retaliatory fire. What else you expect?

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## La ResistanceZ

Looks like we might be getting out of this war on terror for good.





Lets hope its not just for show, And couples of days down the line everything will be back to business as usual.


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## jamal18

Oh, and Shansi air base has been empty of Americans many, many times!


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## Bl[i]tZ

bilalhaider said:


> 49% of all supply routes (including the fuel for the drones) go through Pakistan, the Army has 45 days worth of fuel, but what about the other supplies besides fuel? Most of the non-essential supplies flow through the Central Asian route, whereas most of the essential supplies needed for the war flow through Pakistan.



What is al jazeera's source - unnamed NATO spokesperson? My source is the man responsible for moving logistics. I guess logistics include everything, viz., food, fuel, weapons


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## Jango

Agni5000 said:


> Normally how many soldier guard at boarder post?



About 5-6. But this was not a general border post. It was a well set up building.

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## Peregrine

I wonder what would be the response of "Mighty Pak Fauj"........ If kiyani's own son got killed ? Besharum qaum kay besharum hukmaran


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## La ResistanceZ

They are taking about closing the supply line for good now.


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## 53fd

jamal18 said:


> As somebody has already pointed out, GDP is totally different from governments annual budget. It* might* be 40% of annual budget.



There are no allowances for "might" here, support your claim of 40% with credible evidence.

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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> tell the pukhtoons on both side of the borders and they will laugh and shoot you happily. Let the international press in and the truth will be known.



UN mandate of war in Afghanistan does not apply on Pakhtoon but on US/NATO are bound to follow that which you guys are not doing so violating UN as well. The resolution which allowed NATO/US to attack Afghanistan had no issue with Pakhtoon movement acorss the border.


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## truthseeker2010

if I am not wrong, this is not the first time we are hearing this and probably this will not be the last, that the nato supply line has been suspended and shamsi "is to be" vacated from the americans. everything will be normal in a few days, nato supply lines would resume and may be drone strikes as well.


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## MUHARIB

Any official statement from NATO??


----------



## Emmie

Where were RBS-70s and ANZA MK-IIIs?


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## pakdefender

This was most probably a company head quarter , the fact that there was major ( who could have been the company commander ) was martyred in the attack Im inclided to belive that this was a company headquarter , which is well marked and well establsihed , which NATO deliberately targetted.

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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> tell the pukhtoons on both side of the borders and they will laugh and shoot you happily. Let the international press in and the truth will be known.



The Pukhtoons did not get the UN mandate did they? They are not supposed to be following the UN resolution in the first place.

What a poor argument.


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## Bl[i]tZ

Another important question for Pakistanis for their army and government is what were NATO troops doing in the Pakistani territory?

Their must be a context in which this happened. Its not like they just came out of the blue to kill Pakistani troops inside Pakistani territory?


----------



## Jango

pakdefender said:


> This was most probably a company head quarter , the fact that there was major ( who could have been the company commander ) was martyred in the attack Im inclided to belive that this was a company headquarter , which is well marked and well establsihed , which NATO deliberately targetted.



Well, that is what I have been romping about since morning, it was a Company HQ , well set up and easily identifiable.

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## President Camacho

PakShaheen79 said:


> And whose report is that. BBC, FOX, NATO or Pentagon? And even if they did fire back .. I think it is justified to fire BACK in self defense.



Think about it... what would the NATO/US troops gain by shooting at the Pakistani troops/HQs?

It is not as if they will be rewarded with $$ or medals for shooting at Pakistani troops, who are their supposed allies. It's not even as if they weakened the Pakistani Army by killing 2 dozen of its troops.

At first, Athar Abbas said the Pakistani troops were asleep. Then he said they also fired back. The NATO spokesman is not even confirming it, just saying it is "highly likely" that the deaths resulted from the Heli fire.

So few in here (PDF) are using common sense - The NATO troops wouldn't just reach the border and say, "hey, let's bomb this section and escalate the situation... just 'cuz we're so awesome". 

Barely any information has trickled down except for the ever-changing casualty figures and the location of the post. 

It is best to just wait and allow for more information to come out before we can fathom what actually happened over there.

And please, this is a serious issue, I request the members to not turn it into a funny, laughable thread by resorting to the most outstanding of conspiracy theories. Everyone in here appears to have access to some highly classified information, except me... sucks for me I know.

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## Jango

Bl[i]tZ;2328489 said:


> Another important question for Pakistanis for their army and government is what were NATO troops doing in the Pakistani territory?
> 
> Their must be a context in which this happened. Its not like they just came out of the blue to kill Pakistani troops inside Pakistani territory?



It was only one heli as per reports. No troops on the ground.

---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 AM ----------




Emmie said:


> Where were RBS-70s and ANZA MK-IIIs?



They weren't expecting the Taliban to come up with helos were they?


----------



## SinoChallenger

After Pakistan formally joins the SCO, China can immediately supply Pakistan with the most advanced SAM to defend US carrier-based airstrikes that US will initiate to force Pakistan to reopen the supply routes. Instead, with help from China and Russia, Pakistan can hold its grip on the neck of the Afghanistan international forces (i.e. western imperialist) until they are totally run over by the Pashtun warrior tribes.




nuclearpak said:


> Well, that is what I have been romping about since morning, it was a Company HQ , well set up and easily identifiable.


 Next these dishonorable Americans will be targeting children's playgrounds saying they are terrorists.


----------



## Jango

President Camacho said:


> Think about it... what would the NATO/US troops gain by shooting at the Pakistani troops/HQs?
> 
> It is not as if they will be rewarded with $$ or medals for shooting at Pakistani troops, who are their supposed allies. It's not even as if they weakened the Pakistani Army by killing 2 dozen of its troops.
> 
> At first, Athar Abbas said the Pakistani troops were asleep. Then he said they also fired back. The NATO spokesman is not even confirming it, just saying it is "highly likely" that the deaths resulted from the Heli fire.
> 
> So few in here (PDF) are using common sense - The NATO troops wouldn't just reach the border and say, "hey, let's bomb this section and escalate the situation... just 'cuz we're so awesome".
> 
> Barely any information has trickled down except for the ever-changing casualty figures and the location of the post.
> 
> It is best to just wait and allow for more information to come out before we can fathom what actually happened over there.
> 
> And please, this is a serious issue, I request the members to not turn it into a funny, laughable thread by resorting to the most outstanding of conspiracy theories. Everyone in here appears to have access to some highly classified information, except me... sucks for me I know.




The casualty figure has been constant since evening. 28 martyred.

Troops did fire back with small arms, but probably missed.


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

SinoChallenger said:


> You want me to repost here how I humiliated you in the other thread? You and I both know UK got spanked by Deng Xiaoping.
> 
> 
> Once Pakistan joins SCO (obviously india will not be joining), Russia and Central Asian states will also terminate supplies to Afghanistan. And then 100,000 US and allied troops will have fun times with the Taliban -- *mano-a-mano, no more video game bombing from miles away!* Let's see how long they last without electricity or food.



I appreciate China's economic and military achievements but China is nowhere in comparison with US either militarily or diplomatically.

SCO will never be a military alliance. It is a loose alliance to counter the US influence in the erstwhile Soviet Union *stans.

Russia and China's interests conflict on other things.

Lets not derail this thread by bringing China, India in here.


----------



## Roybot

nuclearpak said:


> The casualty figure has been constant since evening. *28 martyred.
> *
> Troops did fire back with small arms, but probably missed.



Its 24 according to your ISPR.



> Rawalpindi - November 26, 2011	Last Updated:26/11/2011 17:27:16
> On the night of 25/26 November NATO helicopters and fighter aircraft carried out unprovoked firing on two *Pakistani Army border posts in Mahmand Agency as a result of which 24 troops embraced shahadat and 13 were injured. *Pakistani troops effectively responded immediately in self defence to NATO / ISAFs aggression with all available weapons.



http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o=t-press_release&id=1917#pr_link1917


----------



## Jango

Roybot said:


> Its 24 according to your ISPR.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o=t-press_release&id=1917#pr_link1917



Saw it on TV after the ISPR statements.

28 martyred and 13 injured.


----------



## President Camacho

nuclearpak said:


> The casualty figure has been constant since evening. 28 martyred.
> 
> Troops did fire back with small arms, but probably missed.



See, I am not trying to dig something sinister out of the change in casualty figures. They do change, continuously, esp when the operation/accident is fresh still. Seriously injured ones begin to die, and numbers keep escalating.

All I am saying is, we do not have all the information, and the only information we have pertains to the casualty figures, which I do not doubt. So unless we have all the clear information, and the statements that the respective spokesmen stick to, only then shall we deduce whatever happened and who is the main culprit, if there is any.


----------



## 53fd

truthseeker2010 said:


> if I am not wrong, this is not the first time we are hearing this and probably this will not be the last, that the nato supply line has been suspended and shamsi "is to be" vacated from the americans. everything will be normal in a few days, nato supply lines would resume and may be drone strikes as well.



No, but it is the first time you have heard that the supply lines will be closed down for good.


----------



## A1Kaid

Makes me want to kick the living sh. out of the Americans here, but that will do no good nor resolve the core issue here.


----------



## Lancers19

this is not ON guys.there r so many justifications now that it was an error bla bla.how can this be possible when PA had passed them the coordinates of that particular post?this may be hard to digest but it is sum Cow Boy who got drunk last night and wanted to show his might.


----------



## Jango

President Camacho said:


> See, I am not trying to dig something sinister out of the change in casualty figures. They do change, continuously, esp when the operation/accident is fresh still. Seriously injured ones begin to die, and numbers keep escalating.
> 
> All I am saying is, we do not have all the information, and the only information we have pertains to the casualty figures, which I do not doubt. So unless we have all the clear information, and the statements that the spokesmen stick to, *only then shall we deduce whatever happened and who is the main culprit, if there is any.*



So , the culprit is not NATo, the heli was of autonomous forces?


----------



## Irfan Baloch

MUHARIB said:


> Any official statement from NATO??



that they acknowledge the strike and resulting deaths

they offered joint investigation and offered condolence.

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## Emmie

Bl[i]tZ;2328489 said:


> Another important question for Pakistanis for their army and government is what were NATO troops doing in the Pakistani territory?
> 
> Their must be a context in which this happened. Its not like they just came out of the blue to kill Pakistani troops inside Pakistani territory?



Oh yeah detective your question makes sense.... Whatever the context was, attack on a well demarcated check-post can not be vindicated.


----------



## American Pakistani

La ResistanceZ said:


> Looks like we might be getting out of this war on terror for good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets hope its not just for show, And couples of days down the line everything will be back to business as usual.



Same old story, will they only give statements or do something practically.

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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> The Pukhtoons did not get the UN mandate did they? They are not supposed to be following the UN resolution in the first place.
> 
> What a poor argument.


 
Its obvious you have read biased history? The Frontier Gandhi made his supporters abstain from the elections(since most elections in Pakistan are rigged) as he was against leaving India an option not given in the UN mandate and you know the margin difference was just .06 %? Pakhtoons on both sides of the borders consider themselves Pakhtoons first and not Pakistanis or Afg's. Thats a reality everyone accepts.


----------



## Lancers19

it is sooooooooooooooooooo easy to sit with ur laptop n start commenting on PA.

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## Devil Soul

There are news reports quoting some american mag that the attack on PAK check posts were carried out by american heli's....


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## President Camacho

nuclearpak said:


> So , the culprit is not NATo, the heli was of autonomous forces?



The Heli was NATO Heli, of course. The dead are Pakistani soldiers, no doubt about that. However, we do not know yet whether it was a deliberate offensive, or an accident. 

Don't you feel everything should be determined clearly before holding anyone responsible or accountable for whatever has happened?

If the NATO Heli went there for the sole purpose of killing Pak Troops, then it is an act of war. The PA knows best, let us see how it construes the incident. But I hope you do keep in mind that the NATO forces would gain nothing by just targeting the Pak forces inside Pakistani borders.


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## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> They weren't expecting the Taliban to come up with helos were they?



Yeah but considering past violations of Pak territory by NATO measures must had been taken..

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## pakdefender

Devil Soul said:


> There are news reports quoting some american mag that the attack on PAK check posts were carried out by american heli's....



most likely that would be the case


----------



## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> Its obvious you have read biased history? The Frontier Gandhi made his supporters abstain from the elections(since most elections in Pakistan are rigged) as he was against leaving India an option not given in the UN mandate and you know the margin difference was just .06 %? Pakhtoons on both sides of the borders consider themselves Pakhtoons first and not Pakistanis or Afg's. Thats a reality everyone accepts.



Uh what? What are you ranting on about?

The Taliban obviously do not respect or give two hoots about the UN mandate, but the US should. That was my point.


----------



## Emmie

Roybot said:


> Its 24 according to your ISPR.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o=t-press_release&id=1917#pr_link1917



Who says death toll can't rise especially when you have more than a dozen seriously injured troops?

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## Jango

President Camacho said:


> The Heli was NATO Heli, of course. The dead are Pakistani soldiers, no doubt about that. However, *we do not know yet whether it was a deliberate offensive, or an accident. *
> 
> Don't you feel everything should be determined clearly before holding anyone responsible or accountable for whatever has happened?
> 
> If the NATO Heli went there for the sole purpose of killing Pak Troops, then it is an act of war. The PA knows best, let us see how it construes the incident. But I hope you do keep in mind that the NATO forces would gain nothing by just targeting the Pak forces inside Pakistani borders.



No, we do not know, and we should wait, although the real story might not ever come out in the public.

But I find it really really hard to believe how the pilot or the area commander could have mistook a HQ for a Taliban haven.


----------



## Always Neutral

A1Kaid said:


> Makes me want to kick the living sh. out of the Americans here, but that will do no good nor resolve the core issue here.



Dont do it till you know who the real culprits are!


----------



## patna_ke_presley

bilalhaider said:


> There are no allowances for "might" here, support your claim of 40% with credible evidence.



As far I know Pakistan 2011-2012 annual budget is some $30 Billion at current rate.


----------



## Jango

Emmie said:


> Yeah but considering past violations of Pak territory by NATO measures must had been taken..



Most probably not. They only had small arms, and maybe RPG's( not the most accurate things).

Helis , specifically attack helis are armoured around the cockpit, engine, avionics bay etc.

So not a good chance to shoot them down with small arms.


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

Bilal, I update my statement about the logistics from 40% to 35%

In n July, John McCain asked the incoming Commander of US Transportation Command, at the latter's Senate confirmation hearing

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Fraser, to follow up on Chairman Levin&#8217;s question about what would happen if Pakistan cut off its supply routes, what percent of our logistics now goes through Pakistan? 

General FRASER. Sir, it is my understanding that approximately 35 percent moves through the ground, and the other is moving through the Northern Distribution Network, coupled with also the lift as we bring in supplies by air.

Source hearing at Senate Armed Services Committee http://armed-services.senate.gov/Transcripts/2011/07 July/11-63 - 7-21-11.pdf

So from May to July, it goes from 40% to 35%.

This is November, take a guess!


----------



## Lancers19

the next thing that PA can do is attack one of the NATO out post kill a few n realize that it was a mistake n then apologize

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## Always Neutral

pakdefender said:


> Let me give you a lesson in history which is close to home on how you savages invaded ireland and killed the gaelic languge and the English settled Presbyterian Scots in northern Ireland to create demographic changes that to this day are a source of conflict in the North.
> 
> Let there be a united Ireland and May the IRA rise to take back the North compltely out of the hands of the English! Ameen!!!



You learn and change from history and maybe Pakistan needs to do the same? If your writ does not run in an area you claim to be yours than the area is not yours.

---------- Post added at 08:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------




Emmie said:


> Who says death toll can't rise especially when you have more than a dozen seriously injured troops?


It can and its more important now to allow Journalists into this area and let them report the truth. We all deserve the truth! Punish all who are guilty.


----------



## Jango

desiman said:


> This blockade will last a couple of weeks max just like last time, just drama that the Pakistani government has to do after such a huge incident. Pakistan is not in the position to dictate terms to the US, such is the result of its policies since the 70's. You became the "most major non-nato ally " by choice in order for regional benefits and now you must pay the price for it. I thought Pakistan would have learned from the Soviet-Afghan war but its seems like the country has a very short-term memory. The only thing you tend to remember is your hate towards India when in reality your biggest enemy is sitting in your own home.



I would have to agree with the first part, regarding the NATO supply lines thing.


----------



## iPhone

RaptorRX707 said:


> Good reminding:
> 
> *"Remember in Wiki Leaks the Pakistani politicians told the Americans that they will protest in public but support in private"*
> 
> It is famous Pakistani styles and tactics.



that's for drone strikes on militants. there was no such cable on support/protest on attacks on Pakistani soldiers.

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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> You learn and change from history and maybe Pakistan needs to do the same? If your writ does not run in an area you claim to be yours than the area is not yours.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------
> 
> 
> It can and its more important now to allow Journalists into this area and let them report the truth. We all deserve the truth! Punish all who are guilty.



What will the journalists do?


----------



## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> What will the journalists do?



Their duty and in a better way than DG, ISPR and his counterpart in the NATO, who will be eyeing their next rank.


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## Karachihunk

Why such mistakes only happen by NATO? Could one believe that highly sophisticated military machine like NATO cannot be clear as to where Pakistani posts are? Such advanced technology and information system and they confuse who is who?
These weren't even drones; these were real people in aircrafts with real targets. Are these operations that ill planned and impulsive? I'm not giving an opinion, I'm just saying think before you have one.. without biases. This incident just makes me wonder if they can go wrong here, how wrong/misjudged might the drone targets be?! I can't even bring myself to think about the civilian casualties that might have happened.


----------



## alphamale

what are the official statements by pak govt & army on this incident????


----------



## President Camacho

nuclearpak said:


> No, we do not know, and we should wait, although the real story might not ever come out in the public.
> 
> But I find it really really hard to believe how the pilot or the area commander could have mistook a HQ for a Taliban haven.



The actual story will come for sure, but it will take time. It was no secret operation, so many troops involved. But it will still take time to come out. That is why I am saying that we should wait for PA's take on this, and then with all the information at hand, we can deduce whatever happened.

Secondly, we do not know whether the Heli fired at the HQ/post by mistaking it as Taliban heaven, or anything of that kind. 

Do the PA and NATO forces not have some designated common radio frequency to communicate over? With so many in here with classified info at their disposal, I am sure someone can come answer that. 

I think that rather than firing here and there, or relying on the sounds of the chopper, they would be having some mode of communication to alert each other of the terrorists crossing in their respective territories.


----------



## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> Their duty and in a better way than DG, ISPR and his counterpart in the NATO, who will be eyeing their next rank.



And what is that?

They will say the truth about what?

That the helis were of Taliban and not ISAF.

That no soldiers were actually killed.

That the post did not exist , rather it was just a tent?


----------



## Karachihunk

iPhone said:


> that's for drone strikes on militants. there was no such cable on support/protest on attacks on Pakistani soldiers.



Is the blood of men in uniform is different from a common man ?


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

Its official now 

A spokesman for the NATO-led ISAF, Gen. Carsten Jacobson, said close air support had been called in during an operation with Aghan national security forces and ISAF in the rugged border area of the east of Pakistan, where the border is not always clear.

Source CNN


----------



## Birbal

pakdefender said:


> Let me give you a lesson in history which is close to home on how you savages invaded ireland and killed the gaelic languge and the English settled Presbyterian Scots in northern Ireland to create demographic changes that to this day are a source of conflict in the North.
> 
> Let there be a united Ireland and May the IRA rise to take back the North compltely out of the hands of the English! Ameen!!!



All the supporters of UK occupation of Northern Ireland keep saying that a majority of those in Northern Ireland want to stay within the UK. But that's only because the English sent Protestant Scots in to displace the existing Catholic Irish. My personal view is the same as for Palestine. "You weren't invited to Ireland but you came here. Now agree to live under a unified Ireland or gtfo."


----------



## MUHARIB

What will NATO gain by this?? Nothing it will be counter productive to attack PA posts...probably it was a bad mistake. Anyways RIP to the soldiers.


----------



## Jango

President Camacho said:


> The actual story will come for sure, but it will take time. It was no secret operation, so many troops involved. But it will still take time to come out. That is why I am saying that we should wait for PA's take on this, and then with all the information at hand, we can deduce whatever happened.
> 
> Secondly, we do not know whether the Heli fired at the HQ/post by mistaking it as Taliban heaven, or anything of that kind.
> 
> Do the PA and NATO forces not have some designated common radio frequency to communicate over? With so many in here with classified info at their disposal, I am sure someone can come answer that.
> 
> I think that rather than firing here and there, or relying on the sounds of the chopper, they would be having some mode of communication to alert each other of the terrorists crossing in their respective territories.



No , I dont think they have a common frequency, AFAIK. Radio pylons and Mobile towers were blown up by the forces because the TTP used them.

But the heli fired at the Company HQ, 28 were martyred, that bit is clear as daylight, so I think we deserve a strong appeal and outrage.


----------



## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> Most probably not. They only had small arms, and maybe RPG's( not the most accurate things).
> 
> Helis , specifically attack helis are armoured around the cockpit, engine, avionics bay etc.
> 
> So not a good chance to shoot them down with small arms.



I am not talking about RPGs and small arms.. Anyway, do you mean RBS and ANZA can't shoot down gunships?


----------



## SpArK

*Pakistan to Reexamine Relations with US, NATO After Deadly NATO Raid*




*Pakistan says it plans to review its complete relationship with the United States and NATO in response to a deadly cross-border NATO airstrike early Saturday.*


Pakistan says it plans to review its complete relationship with the United States and NATO in response to a deadly cross-border NATO airstrike early Saturday.Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani held an emergency meeting late in the day with top military and civilian government leaders in Islamabad on the incident.In a statement, the officials said "the government will revisit and undertake* a complete review of all programs, activities and cooperative arrangements with US/NATO/ISAF, including diplomatic, political, military and intelligence."They condemned the NATO attack on two Pakistani military checkpoints in the northwest as "unacceptable." * 

They said the attack, which killed at least 26 troops and wounded 14 others, could not be described as a mistake.They also announced that Pakistan has closed all NATO supply lines through its territory to Afghanistan and ordered the United States to vacate a controversial airbase.The statement did not say how long Pakistan's border crossings into landlocked Afghanistan would remain closed to NATO. However, it gave the United States 15 days to shut down its activities at the Shamsi airbase.So far, U.S. officials have not responded to the statement. 



Earlier, a NATO spokesman told VOA they were aware of the reported incident and are investigating.((REST OPT))Top NATO and U.S. commander in Afghanistan General John Allen also offered his condolences to families and loved ones of any members of the Pakistani security forces who may have died or were wounded.The United Arab Emirates leases the Shamsi airbase located in a remote southwestern part of Pakistan. 

The U.S. spy agency, the CIA, reportedly uses the base for covert drone strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt, but the Pakistani military said in June that the United States does not operate out of that base.U.S. officials have said Pakistan's tribal belt provides sanctuary to the Taliban, which has been fighting for 10 years against U.S. troops in Afghanistan.The helicopter raid comes a little more than a year after a similar, less deadly operation in which U.S. helicopters killed two Pakistani soldiers mistaken for insurgents near the Afghan border. Pakistan responded to that attack by closing down one of its border crossings to NATO supplies for more than a week until the United States apologized.Ties between Washington and Islamabad have been unraveling since a covert U.S. commando raid in May killed al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden who was hiding for years in a Pakistani garrison town. Pakistan was outraged it was not informed beforehand and angered by what it saw as a U.S. violation of its sovereignty.Pakistan says it plans to review its complete relationship with the United States and NATO in response to a deadly cross-border NATO airstrike early Saturday.


Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani held an emergency meeting late in the day with top military and civilian government leaders in Islamabad on the incident.


In a statement, the officials said "the government will revisit and undertake a complete review of all programs, activities and cooperative arrangements with US/NATO/ISAF, including diplomatic, political, military and intelligence."

They condemned the NATO attack on two Pakistani military checkpoints in the northwest as "unacceptable." *They said the attack, which killed at least 26 troops and wounded 14 others, could not be described as a mistake.*
They also announced that Pakistan has closed all NATO supply lines through its territory to Afghanistan and ordered the United States to vacate a controversial airbase.


The statement did not say how long Pakistan's border crossings into landlocked Afghanistan would remain closed to NATO. However, it gave the United States 15 days to shut down its activities at the Shamsi airbase.
So far, U.S. officials have not responded to the statement. Earlier, a NATO spokesman told VOA they were aware of the reported incident and are investigating. 

Top NATO and U.S. commander in Afghanistan General John Allen also offered his condolences to families and loved ones of any members of the Pakistani security forces who may have died or were wounded.
The United Arab Emirates leases the Shamsi airbase located in a remote southwestern part of Pakistan. The U.S. spy agency, the CIA, reportedly uses the base for covert drone strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt, but the Pakistani military said in June that the United States does not operate out of that base.
U.S. officials have said Pakistan's tribal belt provides sanctuary to the Taliban, which has been fighting for more than 10 years against U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
The helicopter raid comes a little more than a year after a similar, less deadly operation in which U.S. helicopters killed two Pakistani soldiers mistaken for insurgents near the Afghan border. Pakistan responded to that attack by closing down one of its border crossings to NATO supplies for more than a week until the United States apologized.
Ties between Washington and Islamabad have been severely strained since a covert U.S. commando raid in May killed al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden, who was hiding for years in a Pakistani garrison town. Pakistan was outraged it was not informed beforehand and angered by what it saw as a U.S. violation of its sovereignty.



Pakistan to Reexamine Relations with US, NATO After Deadly NATO Raid | News | English



*Better late than never.

RIP to soldiers who defended the land. 

The act if true is a viiolation of soverignity,integrity and mutual trust which should never have happened.*

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## Musafar

Everything will be back to normal in a week after a few bank transfers from USA.

Who remembers when 11 soldiers were killed in a few years ago? Not many, i bet.

I thought Shamsi airbase was vaccated as stated by Pakistani officials when it was found out that it was a launching pad for drones -- looks like the government lied to us AGAIN.


----------



## Always Neutral

Karachihunk said:


> Why such mistakes only happen by NATO? Could one believe that highly sophisticated military machine like NATO cannot be clear as to where Pakistani posts are? Such advanced technology and information system and they confuse who is who?
> These weren't even drones; these were real people in aircrafts with real targets. Are these operations that ill planned and impulsive? I'm not giving an opinion, I'm just saying think before you have one.. without biases. This incident just makes me wonder if they can go wrong here, how wrong/misjudged might the drone targets be?! I can't even bring myself to think about the civilian casualties that might have happened.



For one a mistake we may have or not made but you will agree we still got it right in Abottabad as per Gen. M himself. I am sad innocent men died and I am curious as you why it happened but unlike you I want the truth no GOP propoganda. They were asleep no they were fighting back? Whats the truth?


----------



## Jango

Bl[i]tZ;2328598 said:


> Its official now
> 
> A spokesman for the NATO-led ISAF, Gen. Carsten Jacobson, said close air support had been called in during an operation with Aghan national security forces and ISAF in the rugged border area of the east of Pakistan, where the border is not always clear.
> 
> Source CNN



It's been on since morning.

There was a op going on, air support was called in, the helis came and chased the terrorists for some distance.

---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 AM ----------




Emmie said:


> I am not talking about RPGs and small arms.. Anyway, do you mean RBS and ANZA can't shoot down gunships?



Where did I say that?


----------



## desiman

nuclearpak said:


> I would have to agree with the first part, regarding the NATO supply lines thing.



the second part is right too dude, what I say is tough but just look back in history and the answers are right there. History tells you a lot, just need to spend the time to study it. Current situations are all the result of past misgivings.


----------



## Jango

SpArK said:


> *Pakistan to Reexamine Relations with US, NATO After Deadly NATO Raid*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan says it plans to review its complete relationship with the United States and NATO in response to a deadly cross-border NATO airstrike early Saturday.*
> 
> 
> Pakistan says it plans to review its complete relationship with the United States and NATO in response to a deadly cross-border NATO airstrike early Saturday.Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani held an emergency meeting late in the day with top military and civilian government leaders in Islamabad on the incident.In a statement, the officials said "the government will revisit and undertake* a complete review of all programs, activities and cooperative arrangements with US/NATO/ISAF, including diplomatic, political, military and intelligence."They condemned the NATO attack on two Pakistani military checkpoints in the northwest as "unacceptable." *
> 
> They said the attack, which killed at least 26 troops and wounded 14 others, could not be described as a mistake.They also announced that Pakistan has closed all NATO supply lines through its territory to Afghanistan and ordered the United States to vacate a controversial airbase.The statement did not say how long Pakistan's border crossings into landlocked Afghanistan would remain closed to NATO. However, it gave the United States 15 days to shut down its activities at the Shamsi airbase.So far, U.S. officials have not responded to the statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier, a NATO spokesman told VOA they were aware of the reported incident and are investigating.((REST OPT))Top NATO and U.S. commander in Afghanistan General John Allen also offered his condolences to families and loved ones of any members of the Pakistani security forces who may have died or were wounded.The United Arab Emirates leases the Shamsi airbase located in a remote southwestern part of Pakistan.
> 
> The U.S. spy agency, the CIA, reportedly uses the base for covert drone strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt, but the Pakistani military said in June that the United States does not operate out of that base.U.S. officials have said Pakistan's tribal belt provides sanctuary to the Taliban, which has been fighting for 10 years against U.S. troops in Afghanistan.The helicopter raid comes a little more than a year after a similar, less deadly operation in which U.S. helicopters killed two Pakistani soldiers mistaken for insurgents near the Afghan border. Pakistan responded to that attack by closing down one of its border crossings to NATO supplies for more than a week until the United States apologized.Ties between Washington and Islamabad have been unraveling since a covert U.S. commando raid in May killed al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden who was hiding for years in a Pakistani garrison town. Pakistan was outraged it was not informed beforehand and angered by what it saw as a U.S. violation of its sovereignty.Pakistan says it plans to review its complete relationship with the United States and NATO in response to a deadly cross-border NATO airstrike early Saturday.
> 
> 
> Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani held an emergency meeting late in the day with top military and civilian government leaders in Islamabad on the incident.
> 
> 
> In a statement, the officials said "the government will revisit and undertake a complete review of all programs, activities and cooperative arrangements with US/NATO/ISAF, including diplomatic, political, military and intelligence."
> 
> They condemned the NATO attack on two Pakistani military checkpoints in the northwest as "unacceptable." *They said the attack, which killed at least 26 troops and wounded 14 others, could not be described as a mistake.*
> They also announced that Pakistan has closed all NATO supply lines through its territory to Afghanistan and ordered the United States to vacate a controversial airbase.
> 
> 
> The statement did not say how long Pakistan's border crossings into landlocked Afghanistan would remain closed to NATO. However, it gave the United States 15 days to shut down its activities at the Shamsi airbase.
> So far, U.S. officials have not responded to the statement. Earlier, a NATO spokesman told VOA they were aware of the reported incident and are investigating.
> 
> Top NATO and U.S. commander in Afghanistan General John Allen also offered his condolences to families and loved ones of any members of the Pakistani security forces who may have died or were wounded.
> The United Arab Emirates leases the Shamsi airbase located in a remote southwestern part of Pakistan. The U.S. spy agency, the CIA, reportedly uses the base for covert drone strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt, but the Pakistani military said in June that the United States does not operate out of that base.
> U.S. officials have said Pakistan's tribal belt provides sanctuary to the Taliban, which has been fighting for more than 10 years against U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
> The helicopter raid comes a little more than a year after a similar, less deadly operation in which U.S. helicopters killed two Pakistani soldiers mistaken for insurgents near the Afghan border. Pakistan responded to that attack by closing down one of its border crossings to NATO supplies for more than a week until the United States apologized.
> Ties between Washington and Islamabad have been severely strained since a covert U.S. commando raid in May killed al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden, who was hiding for years in a Pakistani garrison town. Pakistan was outraged it was not informed beforehand and angered by what it saw as a U.S. violation of its sovereignty.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan to Reexamine Relations with US, NATO After Deadly NATO Raid | News | English
> 
> 
> 
> *Better late than never.
> 
> RIP to soldiers who defended the land.
> 
> The act if true is a viiolation of soverignity,integrity and mutual trust which should never have happened.*



Complete BS, nothing will happen, normalcy will be restored in a month or so.

Or will it?


----------



## President Camacho

Bl[i]tZ;2328598 said:


> Its official now
> 
> A spokesman for the NATO-led ISAF, Gen. Carsten Jacobson, said close air support had been called in during an operation with Aghan national security forces and ISAF in the rugged border area of the east of Pakistan, where the border is not always clear.
> 
> Source CNN



I hope the blued part is a typographical error.

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## logic

Nothing will change.

Kiyani Zardari Gilani will keep on working on old salaries.

Shame on you Mr Kiyani
Shame on you Mr Zardari
Shame on you Mr Gilani

Sharm Tum Ko Magar Nahi Aati

There will be lot of empty slogan chanting but nothing substantial.

NATO forces did this because they can. simple.

Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz


----------



## Jango

Major Mujahid Shaheed
Captain Usman Shaheed
Havaldar Mushtaq Shaheed
Havaldar Aslam Shaheed
Sipahi Imran Yousuf Shaheed
Sipahi Abdul Razaq Shaheed
Sipahi Mazher Abbas Shaheed
Sipahi Tariq Shaheed
Sipahi Nasir Mehmood Shaheed
Sipahi Mujibullah Shaheed
Sipahi Tahir Mehmood Shaheed
Sipahi Muheem Shaheed

Some of the martyred in todays incident. RIP

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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> And what is that?
> 
> They will say the truth about what?
> 
> That the helis were of Taliban and not ISAF.
> 
> That no soldiers were actually killed.
> 
> That the post did not exist , rather it was just a tent?



Send the Journalists there, if you have nothing to hide after all its your territory?


----------



## Safriz

and this is the best pakistan could do...i am ashamed

Pakistan reviews US, Nato ties over lethal strike | World | DAWN.COM

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## SpArK

*ISAF Investigates Incident On Pakistan Border*








*ISAF Headquarters
2010-09-CA-017*


*KABUL, Afghanistan (September 30)  Early this morning, International Security Assistance Force observed what it believed was a group of insurgents attempting to fire mortars at a coalition base in the border area of Dand Patan district, Paktiya Province. An ISAF air weapons team was called to provide fire support and engaged the suspected insurgents' firing position, located inside Afghanistan along the border area. ISAF aircraft did enter into Pakistani airspace briefly as they engaged this initial target. 

After the initial strike, the aircraft received what the crews assessed as effective small arms fire from individuals just across the border in Pakistan. Operating in self defense, the ISAF aircraft entered into Pakistani airspace killing several armed individuals. 

Subsequently, Pakistan military officials informed ISAF that members of their border forces in the area had been struck by coalition aircraft. 

ISAF and Pakistani forces are reviewing the operational reporting to verify the exact location of the two engagements and the facts in this case, and we will work together to fully investigate this incident.

Both sides have in mind that it is the insurgents, operating on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan and violating the territorial sovereignty of both countries, that we are focused on fighting.

ISAF conveys our sincere condolences to the Pakistani military and the families of those who were killed or injured.*


ISAF Investigates Incident On Pakistan Border | ISAF - International Security Assistance Force

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## Safriz

eventually they will blame Pakistan for everything and get away with these murders..
a bunch of blood thirsty murderers they are


----------



## fawwaxs

There is a big difference between insult and humiliation. and the 7th world largest ARMY with nuclear arsenals humiliated by NATO, NATO does such attacks deliberately to humiliate us.


----------



## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> Send the Journalists there, if you have nothing to hide after all its your territory?



Well, it is not in my capacity.

Tell please, what will the journos gather?


----------



## iPhone

bilalhaider said:


> The UN will do nothing. I can definitely see this event as a game changer though, the proxy & intelligence games will be in full force now, & this time, it's going to be a very bleak scenario for the troops in Afghanistan.



I hope you're right but there have been NATO strikes on Pak check posts in the past which have resulted in number of casulties and there have been strong protests and even blockade on supply routes but in the end Pak resumed it's support and cooperation with the US and NATO forces. 

Though, the big difference this time around is the large number of Pak troops causulties. Where in the past it was mostly civilians or a handful of para-troopers. If some solid actions are not taken against this blatant attack, I do see feelings of resentment arising among Pak troops, even demorlization that high command doesn't have their back. That's not a good feelings to be had in the lower ranks.


----------



## pakdefender

nuclearpak said:


> Major Mujahid Shaheed
> Captain Usman Shaheed
> Havaldar Mushtaq Shaheed
> Havaldar Aslam Shaheed
> Sipahi Imran Yousuf Shaheed
> Sipahi Abdul Razaq Shaheed
> Sipahi Mazher Abbas Shaheed
> Sipahi Tariq Shaheed
> Sipahi Nasir Mehmood Shaheed
> Sipahi Mujibullah Shaheed
> Sipahi Tahir Mehmood Shaheed
> Sipahi Muheem Shaheed
> 
> Some of the martyred in todays incident. RIP



May they rest in peace


----------



## American Pakistani

Must Watch.

Shaheed(martyrs) Never dies.


----------



## Always Neutral

safriz said:


> eventually they will blame Pakistan for everything and get away with these murders



Just like Pakistan blames the West for all its problems?


----------



## turkish

nuclearpak said:


> Complete BS, nothing will happen, normalcy will be restored in a month or so.
> 
> Or will it?



What are trying to say man!!! Are you those who post coz they can kinds ... Nothing makes sense here.. Your are contradicting yourself.....


----------



## Musafar

Pakistan is in need of a revolution, an ASIAN Revolution again our tyrant rulers who are no better than the likes of hosni mubarak and assad.

Imran khan where are you? Now is the time to lead us.


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## Jango

pakdefender said:


> May they rest in peace



Maj Mujahid was going to get engaged after Muharram.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

The Pakistan Army has paid 10 times more the Cost of this Fkd Up WOT and yet yanks whine about double dealing , do more and have nothing to offer except for allegations..The Blood of Martyrs speaks out loud for itself to those who dough the commitments and sacrifices made by PA in this unholy war of US 

i guess an incident of this gravity would might prove to be the final nail in the coffin of PAK-US Military Ties and the support Nato Enjoyed from a front line Ally like Pakistan!

No wonder those assholes couldn't win a war from those rouge talibans, A highly equipped 40 Nation Army with all support yet defeated stretched and lost in the mountains of Afghanistan and lost a war just to ordinary and least equipped Taliban of Afghanistan, Wonder how the historians would put it down..Thoughts!!!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=311708095525418


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## Jango

turkish said:


> What are trying to say man!!! Are you those who post coz they can kinds ... Nothing makes sense here.. Your are contradicting yourself.....



Uh what? 

All this blockade thing has a chance of 5% of being permanent.

The probability is that it will just go poof and normalcy restored.


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## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> Where did I say that?



Kindly reread my posts you missed the intend..


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## Always Neutral

nuclearpak said:


> Maj Mujahid was going to get engaged after Muharram.



And that makes the incident very sad! Please have an open inqusition like we had on the Nimrod crash?


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## Sasquatch

Pakistan needs to cut off Supply lines, Get Out of the War on Terror, and make any US-NATO bases in Pakistan vacated.Cut it off permanently.


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## PakShaheen79

I think it will help people like Always Neutral who are playing innocent here on this forum. Though entire interview is treat but listen from 8:00 onwards as it is relevant to the region.

Right from the mouth of former CIA Bin Laden unit leader..

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## Jango

Emmie said:


> Kindly reread my posts you missed the intend..



RPG and Anza can destroy a heli, even a bullet at the right place can do the damage.

But helis are also armour plated at certain places.


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## iPhone

Always Neutral said:


> Just like Pakistan blames the West for all its problems?



what're you saying mister? that NATO did not attack Pakistani check post insdie Pakistan? that Pak troops crossed the border and NATO retaliated? or that ISPR is making up this attack and troops casualties that no attack ever took place? whta is on your mind?


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## Jango

Always Neutral said:


> And that makes the incident very sad! *Please have an open inqusition like we had on the Nimrod crash*?



??? Was not here during the Nimrod incident. At least I dont remember.


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## illusion8

patna_ke_presley said:


> As far I know Pakistan 2011-2012 annual budget is some $30 Billion at current rate.



Source please,

I thought it was around 6 Billion or so.


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## PakShaheen79

Hu Songshan said:


> Pakistan needs to cut off Supply lines, Get Out of the War on Terror, and make any US-NATO bases in Pakistan vacated.Cut it off permanently.



I think this is exactly what has been decided by DCC meeting. People here are making fun of Kiyani and army but they must understand that even army and Kiyani know that they have been caught between devil and deep sea so they will have to act NOW as temperature within the rank and file is mounting against the top brass. political rhetoricals can clam down common men but not those in middle of the storm... So i expect some practical steps inline with decisions made in this meeting.

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## iPhone

RaptorRX707 said:


> Doesn't matter, it is very famous in Pakistan tricks, we know it.
> 
> 
> 
> :



so you're saying Pakistan establishment has told the west to attack Pakistani check posts, kill Pak soldeirs delibertly and we (politicans and military leaders) will support you in private and protest and shout in public. is that what you are saying?


----------



## Musafar

Taliban can shoot down seal team 6 helicopters and take out 20+ DEVGRU unit officers but our airforce can't defend its own damn border. How embarrassing!


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## Always Neutral

iPhone said:


> what're you saying mister? that NATO did not attack Pakistani check post insdie Pakistan? that Pak troops crossed the border and NATO retaliated? or that ISPR is making up this attack and troops casualties that no attack ever took place? whta is on your mind?



The durand line was always a problem.


----------



## Roybot

SpArK said:


> *ISAF Headquarters
> 2010-09-CA-017*
> 
> 
> *KABUL, Afghanistan (September 30) &#8211; Early this morning, International Security Assistance Force observed what it believed was a group of insurgents attempting to fire mortars at a coalition base in the border area of Dand Patan district, Paktiya Province. An ISAF air weapons team was called to provide fire support and engaged the suspected insurgents' firing position, located inside Afghanistan along the border area. ISAF aircraft did enter into Pakistani airspace briefly as they engaged this initial target. **
> 
> *


*

Something doesn't add up. If the coalition base in Paktiya Province was being attacked by mortars, why did NATO strike in Mohmand agency. Paktia province doesn't border Mohmand agency, or close enough to receive mortar fire all the way from Mohmand. *

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## Jango

Musafar said:


> Taliban can shoot down seal team 6 helicopters and take out 20+ DEVGRU unit officers but our airforce can't defend its own damn border. How embarrassing!



Because that Chinook was lowdown, and lured by the insurgents, but in this case the Heli came and took the post by surprise.

---------- Post added at 01:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 AM ----------




Roybot said:


> Something doesn't add up. If the coalition base in Paktiya Province was being attacked by mortars, why did NATO strike in Mohmand agency. Paktia province doesn't border Mohmand agency, or close enough to receive mortar fire.



Alot of more things won't add up either my friend.


----------



## Donatello

Rafael said:


> Defence committee has concluded its meeting and has condemned the attacks.
> 
> With the hope that this would not happen again, lets have some rest and get some sleep.



Mark my words, this will happen again.......because we have some gutless commanders.


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## Devil Soul

Capt usman n major mujahid shaheed,who got martrydom today morning
&#1573;&#1606;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1573;&#1606;&#1575; &#1573;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606; 
SALUTE 2 These LIONS 
may your souls rest in peace . Ameen.
Lahu jo hay shaheed ka wo qoom hay hayat hay,,,,
http://enjoymenttube.blogspot.com/2011/11/capt-usman-n-major-mujahid-shaheed.html
http://syedzaidzamanhamid.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/major-mujahid-and-captain-usman/


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## Always Neutral

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think this is exactly what has been decided by DCC meeting. .. So i expect some practical steps inline with decisions made in this meeting.



Yes blockade of supply routes thru Pakistan till the inquiry is over legitimate!
Yes not sharing info with us till the inquiry is over is legitimate!

Attacking NATO till the inquiry is over is daft.


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## PakShaheen79

illusion8 said:


> Source please,
> 
> I thought it was around 6 Billion or so.



You are confusing defense budget with total budget.


----------



## Always Neutral

Devil Soul said:


> Capt usman n major mujahid shaheed,who got martrydom today morning
> &#1573;&#1606;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1573;&#1606;&#1575; &#1573;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;
> SALUTE 2 These LIONS
> may your souls rest in peace . Ameen.
> Lahu jo hay shaheed ka wo qoom hay hayat hay,,,,
> LETS ENJOY TOGETHER: Capt usman n major mujahid shaheed



This is sad and if for any reason they were delibrately targeted you will find many supporters like me against such stupid actions.


----------



## Safriz

Always Neutral said:


> Just like Pakistan blames the West for all its problems?



no SIR Pakistan does not blame west..Pakistan blames the "lame useless west" who after a decade of war and plundering country after country still is outsmarted by a bunch of donkey riders...
Actually pakistan doesnt need to blamewest....the prof is in the pudding...
All western leaders started war in Iraq and Afghanistan "to restore democracy" decades later all i see is anarchy....
FAIL


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## Nitin Goyal

Hafeez announces budget of 2011-12 with total outlay of Rs 2767b | Pakistan Business News | Pakistan Finance


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## J.Tariq

I saw on ary news that this was not exactly a check post this was actually a unit headquarter newly built and also few flag meeting between nato and pakistan officials also held at this place. bbc said that all soldiers were asleep. bbc reporter tweeted that the place where nato opened fire is still at ablaze 

think again

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## Musafar

nuclearpak said:


> Because that Chinook was lowdown, and lured by the insurgents, but in this case the Heli came and took the post by surprise.




So why wasn't air support called in? For a country that spends 23% of its budget on military (and a mere 7% of education) why are we acquiring so much technology if we never use it for its sole purpose - are we getting value for money?

Again our trousers have been taken off. I thought the OBL raid wouldve taught us something

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## Safriz

Musafar said:


> So why wasn't air support called in? For a country that spends 23% of its budget on military (and a mere 7% of education) why are we acquiring so much technology if we never use it for its sole purpose - are we getting value for money?
> 
> Again our trousers have been taken off. I thought the OBL raid wouldve taught us something



EVER WONDERED WHY WE ARE IN THE GUTTER?
BECAUSE WE ARE A NATION WHO DOESNT LEARN FROM THE PAST.


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Devil Soul said:


> Capt usman n major mujahid shaheed,who got martrydom today morning
> &#1573;&#1606;&#1575; &#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1573;&#1606;&#1575; &#1573;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1585;&#1575;&#1580;&#1593;&#1608;&#1606;
> SALUTE 2 These LIONS
> may your souls rest in peace . Ameen.
> Lahu jo hay shaheed ka wo qoom hay hayat hay,,,,
> LETS ENJOY TOGETHER: Capt usman n major mujahid shaheed
> Major Mujahid and Captain Usman &#8211; Shaheeds never die! « Syed Zaid Zaman Hamid







Uploaded with ImageShack.us

RIP Ameen!


----------



## turkish

This is a ball less act and accepting it would be even worse, Its just not Pakistan its the Indian subcontinent where we make noise a lot but me dont act against the west.... I guess we have lost our self respect no matter what happens its always Noise !!

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## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> RPG and Anza can destroy a heli, even a bullet at the right place can do the damage.
> 
> But helis are also armour plated at certain places.



Sir thats true, if manpads weren't good enough against aircrafts and helis then they wouldn't have been in service with PA or PAF. Thats not my question, my question is about preparations, about counter measures. Considering past violations of Pakistan's territory by NATO PA must had taken appropriate steps to counter attack future incursions. Wasn't that missing?

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## lionheartsalahudin

another act of war against our country ,i am enraged any patriotic pakistani would be,and we cant openly confront america or nato on the issue thats the truth and factual,but after these acts of aggresion surely we retaliate and which institution will that be the one and only who west is after and our politicans piss their pants on hearing the sounds of their boots no its not the army ,its the isi don't worry guys nato will be duly paid back with interest another attack perhaps on nato base by our assets in afghanistan,back to planing board for isi bcus ISI does'nt keep creditors waiting we pay back with interest ,so euorope gear up and order body bags for the white men in ur uniform ,bcuz u dared kill pakistani soldiers in uniform ,isi is there as our first line of offense u will hear from them soon enough!PAKISTAN ZINDABAD,ISI FOREVER

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## Always Neutral

Imran Khan said:


> ok sir i will try but can't promise as i am 99% desi guy lolz


Abu Z said desi = Indians. But your post are not Indian, if i read them? Anyway you have very good sense of humor( some understood and most not). Regards


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## abay

Allah rahmet eylesin.

Rest in peace.


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## Imran Khan

one bomb on this table and matter solved

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## VelocuR

iPhone said:


> so you're saying Pakistan establishment has told the west to attack Pakistani check posts, kill Pak soldeirs delibertly and we (politicans and military leaders) will support you in private and protest and shout in public. is that what you are saying?



I can't make comment as I have no knowledge during the secret conversation between Pakistanis leadership, military chief and US deals. 

We acknowledge in the the public Hussein Haqqani condemn the US but in secretly he asked US to overthrown Kiyani and military in fear of coups. Pakistan have been sold last sixty five years, nothing new.


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## genmirajborgza786

disgusting act by NATO may the brave Soldiers rest in peace amin my condolences to their loved ones


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## iPhone

Always Neutral said:


> The durand line was always a problem.



Can't you guys tell a military check post from a militant hideout? You guys are provided locations of Pak check posts. Would you accept the same reason of durand line if Pak had launched a strike which resulted in NATO soldiers death?


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## Bl[i]tZ

CNN now reporting that two check posts were hit by NATO gunships inside Pakistan and not one!

Clearly NATO knew what they were hitting. Lets reject the thesis that it was a "miscalculation" that accidently led NATO helis into Pakistan and then accidently ended up firing onto Pakistani troops


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## TOPGUN

Very sad news RIP to our brave soilders and shame on nato and the US this was a cowardly and uncalled act bastards.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> AM: Please read these great words by AA to see why that is so:


Yet you had no problem arguing that 'might is right' in the case of 'injustice being meted out' when Raymond Davis murdered two Pakistanis in cold blood and the US was attempting to coerce Pakistan into launching a military operation in NW.

This is rather hypocritical - if it is 'justice' that you support, then justice demands that either side play by the same rules and be judged in the same manner.

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## Always Neutral

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yet you had no problem arguing that 'might is right' in the case of 'injustice being meted out' when Raymond Davis murdered two Pakistanis in cold blood and the US was attempting to coerce Pakistan into launching a military operation in NW.
> 
> This is rather hypocritical - if it is 'justice' that you support, then justice demands that either side play by the same rules and be judged in the same manner.



Yet u accepted blood money and let him go home?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

nuclearpak said:


> Everything is the fault of the generals , eh?


 


Areesh said:


> In this case definitely is.


Criticism of the 'generals' could be exactly what the US wants out of this unprovoked act of murder and State terrorism.

That said, I agree that the GoP and Pak Mil need to go beyond rhetoric now.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

All you anti army trolls tell me a few simple thing:

1)Corruption...?Can you point out 1 case involving army looting billions of even millions of $$?

2)Drone?.... Chief of Airstaff came on record tht if GoP/Zardari n gang order tem to shoot down drones they will... has the DEMOCRATIC GOVT done so?

3)Do you think ARMY would like ITS OWN OFFICERS N TROOPS TO BE MARTYRED LIKE THIS? 

4)Cutting of NATO supplies,telling US to evacuate SHAMSI AIRBASE... Done on the narratives of PAK ARMY.... What else can they do? Go fight NATO?

5)Who let ramon the dog out ? GoP,Govt of Punjab or the army chief?


If you cant answer these question... than kindly stop barking.

Excuse my french!

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## Bratva

Always Neutral said:


> the same can be asked when the PA killed 13 of its own men in Friendly Fire?



You become Biased here, A Faulty RPG exploding during firing is what we called accident but when A HELICOPTER can't differentiate a Company Headquarter and a checkpost then that's not called accident it's called man slaughter

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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

Always Neutral said:


> the same can be asked when the PA killed 13 of its own men in Friendly Fire?


friendly fire is something else, it has happened by most armies in the world, but what the US did was definitely not an accident and CNN is saying it happened on 2 outposts

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## Always Neutral

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Criticism of the 'generals' could be exactly what the US wants out of this unprovoked act of murder and State terrorism.
> 
> That said, I agree that the GoP and Pak Mil need to go beyond rhetoric now.



How can we have constructive destruction of NATO? I would say let the international press in, if you have nothing to hide?


----------



## iPhone

RaptorRX707 said:


> *I can't make comment as I have no knowledge during the secret conversation between Pakistanis leadership, military chief and US deals. *
> 
> We acknowledge in the the public Hussein Haqqani condemn the US but in secretly he asked US to overthrown Kiyani and military in fear of coups. Pakistan have been sold last sixty five years, nothing new.



thank you, a much better, clearer and balanced thought than the previous, 'everyone's in on it.' hussain haqani? I do not recognize such a being as even human. uska insano mein shumar nehin hota.

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## logic

In the wake of NATO attacks the top civilian and military leadership called a high level meeting
they all agreed on the following agenda.

1. Halwa of the best kind should be ordered immediately. but zardari and gilani were at odds about the nuts and toppings.

2. Extension has been granted to all SERVANTS of GOP.

3. All agreed that high dose of hollow slogans should be chanted followed by some wild chest thumping. 

The Government of Pakistan is a Joke.

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## American Pakistani




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## Imran Khan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Criticism of the 'generals' could be exactly what the US wants out of this unprovoked act of murder and State terrorism.*
> 
> That said, I agree that the GoP and Pak Mil need to go beyond rhetoric now.



please don't make us fool sir if generals done there jobs we are not bastards to criticize them if NATO killed our 28 and we shot-down 1-2 apaches why the hell someone criticizes them ?


----------



## iPhone

has NATO issued a statement, yet? what is their stance?


----------



## Always Neutral

mafiya said:


> You become Biased here, A Faulty RPG exploding during firing is what we called accident but when A HELICOPTER can't differentiate a Company Headquarter and a checkpost then that's not called accident it's called man slaughter



TAKE JOURNALIST DOWN THERE, THEY ARE NOT SO DUMB? MAYBE AS I HEAR NOW IT WAS A STAGING POINT OF PA BLACK OPS AGAINST AFGHANISTAN.


----------



## Areesh

Nitin Goyal said:


> Hafeez announces budget of 2011-12 with total outlay of Rs 2767b | Pakistan Business News | Pakistan Finance


 
What this news has to do with this thread troll?


----------



## logic

iPhone said:


> has NATO issued a statement, yet? what is their stance?



Yes NATO said they did this because they can.


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## Tayyab1796

After this incident for sure we need anti -air missiles on these checkposts and we may hav to deploy more radars and engage in more coordiantion so that we don't end up killing our own bird with our missile. To do that we might need more electricity and since our federal government is corrupt and their loyalties are dubious (memo gate scandal) we MUST get rid of this Government so that we hav clean people incharge who can make good decisions...and may be we can hav more electricity for our radars /AA missiles /radios ...and our homes,schools,hospitals,shops etc.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Always Neutral said:


> Yet u accepted blood money and let him go home?


I did not, nor did I support that particular decision of the government, and the government and military were strongly criticized for releasing Davis by many on this forum and in Pakistan.

So anything else besides the usual canards to hijack from the argument?

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## Always Neutral

logic said:


> Yes NATO said they did this because they can.



NO WE DID NOT! WE SAID WE ARE SORRY *BUT* WE WERE FIRED FROM THAT LOCATION.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Always Neutral said:


> TAKE JOURNALIST DOWN THERE, THEY ARE NOT SO DUMB? MAYBE AS I HEAR NOW IT WAS A STAGING POINT OF PA BLACK OPS AGAINST AFGHANISTAN.


Yes, its probably also a 'staging ground' for all the 'Aliens from Outer Space that create crop circles and abduct Westerners alone to conduct anal probes on' ...

Please keep the stupidity and ludicrous conspiracy theories in check.

---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------




Always Neutral said:


> NO WE DID NOT! WE SAID WE ARE SORRY *BUT* WE WERE FIRED FROM THAT LOCATION.


Bull shite - that is always NATO's excuse, whether it is a wedding party, funeral procession or a bunch of kids playing in a field.

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## Bratva

Always Neutral said:


> TAKE JOURNALIST DOWN THERE, THEY ARE NOT SO DUMB? MAYBE AS I HEAR NOW IT WAS A STAGING POINT OF PA BLACK OPS AGAINST AFGHANISTAN.



When 30 Us commandos killed in a special mission, Did Nato took journalists to that point to proof their point?

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## turkish

Always Neutral said:


> I agree just like India bombing Mizoram? Or sorry are u talking aboout killing 100 of ur army men while they laid faulty mines or maybe patribal encounter?



I agree too just like the British Army killing over 400 men,women and children in the north of Ireland, I heard the victims were unarmed ????? I hope the question is not too Neutral for Always Neutral .....

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## PakShaheen79

Always Neutral said:


> TAKE JOURNALIST DOWN THERE, THEY ARE NOT SO DUMB? MAYBE AS I HEAR NOW IT WAS A STAGING POINT OF PA BLACK OPS AGAINST AFGHANISTAN.



Pakistan army knowing fully well the consequences would use a declared check post and company HQ for Black Ops .... Seriously man, this is getting bigger than Iraqi WMD.


----------



## Areesh

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> All you anti army trolls tell me a few simple thing:
> 
> 1)Corruption...?Can you point out 1 case involving army looting billions of even millions of $$?
> 
> 2)Drone?.... Chief of Airstaff came on record tht if GoP/Zardari n gang order tem to shoot down drones they will... has the DEMOCRATIC GOVT done so?
> 
> 3)Do you think ARMY would like ITS OWN OFFICERS N TROOPS TO BE MARTYRED LIKE THIS?
> 
> 4)Cutting of NATO supplies,telling US to evacuate SHAMSI AIRBASE... Done on the narratives of PAK ARMY.... What else can they do? Go fight NATO?
> 
> 5)Who let ramon the dog out ? GoP,Govt of Punjab or the army chief?
> 
> 
> If you cant answer these question... than kindly stop barking.
> 
> Excuse my french!


 
1 Well Yes military officers have been invokved in corruption. Admiral Mansoor ul Haq was a part of military I guess.

2 Drones are conducted in total consensus of Pakistani military. In fact it was a military govt that allowed USA to bomb it's territory.

3 Why not??? $$$ are more important than soldiers buddy.

4 These are all drama they always do after every such incident. If they can't retaliate to an aggressor whether it is America or NATO then they also don't deserve all the military budget they get to protect the sovereignty of Pakistan. They don't deserve to wear that uniform.

5 All three were involved and played their respective role.

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## Bratva

Always Neutral said:


> NO WE DID NOT! WE SAID WE ARE SORRY *BUT* WE WERE FIRED FROM THAT LOCATION.



it's a SOP that when ever NATO helicopters intrude in to Pakistani territory warning shots are fired to warn them they have crossed the boundry, now when a trigger happy illetrate can't differentiate warning shots then how can you remain neutral in this matter?

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## Emmie

Always Neutral said:


> NO WE DID NOT! WE SAID WE ARE SORRY *BUT* WE WERE FIRED FROM THAT LOCATION.



First decide the location from where you were fired.. NW, SW, Kurram, Khyber, Mohmand, Bajaur?


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## Omar1984

Even the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan, never did this and Pakistan considered them an enemy at that time.

General Zia made a speech that if the invaders are in Afghanistan then their next target will be Pakistan so we should help the Afghan Mujahideen before it reaches that stage.

The Soviets never invaded Pakistan, but guess who did...our so called "ally".

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Imran Khan said:


> please don't make us fool sir if generals done there jobs we are not bastards to criticize them if NATO killed our 28 and we shot-down 1-2 apaches why the hell someone criticizes them ?


IK sahib - outside of a few lucky hits, the Apaches and fighter jets weren't going to be shot down without some advanced A2A missiles deployed at or around the site, or a PAF patrol in the air nearby that could be coordinated to attack once the base communicated what was happening to the Army command, which would have then communicated with PAF.

The military response at the time of the attack is not the issue given the constraints mentioned - it is Pakistan's response going forward that will determine whether or not the GoP and GHQ leadership need to resign.


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## 53fd

This attack could be a means of instigating a military coup, to create discontent in the Army ranks against Kayani, especially because Kayani is perceived to be 'larger than life' here in the US. And Kayani is under pressure to hit back hard, just like the government is under pressure as well to react to this.

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## zaiby

I hope there are some huge consequences to this cowardly act by usa/nato other than the supplies being stopped for a few days


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## Tayyab1796

Pak must demand following to reopen the supply route :
a million US dollar compensation foer each Pak solider who died or was injured during the raid on Salala checkpost . Trust me US will never dare do something like this again . They count everything in dollars ... and once they start losing those they will think a thousand times before daring again.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

third class said:


> Agnostic sir we all know what the response is going to be....one apology from USA and we will say bring on the dollars...
> harame musharfees have this motto.."forget and forgive,for green dollar bill."


Agreed that an apology won't bring back our martyrs - but if there is a joint investigation and the heads of State of NATO apologize, the response from Pakistan should also be tempered, though there should still be a response in terms of ending ALL US military operations on and from Pakistani territory from now on.

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## Always Neutral

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I did not, nor did I support that particular decision of the government, and the government and military were strongly criticized for releasing Davis by many on this forum and in Pakistan.
> 
> So anything else besides the usual canards to hijack from the argument?



OK NO CANARDS SINCE U ARE ERUDITE. I understand you may or not wish to but I have debunked only hearsay.

We have no reason to target PA for this incidentI am really sorry some good men died
If Indians troll this site with pontifications like Jetti that he cries for the PA and a guycalled Ambitious 499 who says PA lost their nerve after 71 and kargil i have asked him why did he troll?

All said and done please release poof we have fuc.ped., till than relax


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bilalhaider said:


> This attack could be a means of instigating a military coup, to create discontent in the Army ranks against Kayani, especially because Kayani is perceived to be 'larger than life' here in the US. And Kayani is under pressure to hit back hard, just like the government is under pressure as well to react to this.


The government is going to do nothing other than rhetoric - it'll throw the military under the bus - Zardari and company will secretly be telling the US that they don't care about the attack but have to make statements for public consumption, and that the 'military needs to be brought under control'.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

This attack on a PA headquarters... not once... but they came twice.... is the last nail in NATOs coffin... Afghan war just took a new turn... one tht USA will regret!


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## 53fd

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The government is going to do nothing other than rhetoric - it'll throw the military under the bus - Zardari and company will secretly be telling the US that they don't care about the attack but have to make statements for public consumption, and that the 'military needs to be brought under control'.



But I think Kayani might be under pressure from people in the Army ranks itself to hit back at the US.

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## Always Neutral

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The government is going to do nothing other than rhetoric - it'll throw the military under the bus - Zardari and company will secretly be telling the US that they don't care about the attack but have to make statements for public consumption, and that the 'military needs to be brought under control'.



And whom do you blame for that Kiyani anyway has 3 more years?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Always Neutral said:


> All said and done please release poof we have fuc.ped., till than relax


28 dead Pakistani soldiers on TWO POSTS and a NATO admission that it was their forces that did it is PROOF ENOUGH, especially given the long trail of thousands of dead bodies that were the result of 'NATO responding to fire from wedding parties, funeral processions, festivals and kids playing in fields'.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Always Neutral said:


> And whom do you blame for that Kiyani anyway has 3 more years?


How is that comment relevant to my point?


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## logic

bilalhaider said:


> This attack could be a means of instigating a military coup, to create discontent in the Army ranks against Kayani, especially because Kayani is perceived to be 'larger than life' here in the US. And Kayani is under pressure to hit back hard, just like the government is under pressure as well to react to this.



There could be several possibilities some of them are as follows.

1. Coup against Kiyani
2. Coup against Zardari
3. Coup against all above

but one thing is sure whoever is behind this dirty game has planned it for a long time and all the pieces are falling into place. 

But one thing is for sure NATO is like a gang of drunk youths with a high tendency of anti-social behavior.

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## Areesh

Anyways Pakistan is one unfortunate country. Politicians are a sell out as in many other third world countries. But the worst part is that even the Military and establishment of this country who were supposed to protect the national interest of this country have sold themselves for dollars.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

third class said:


> sir this will never happen...you know...it did it in the past...they did now and they will do it again.....when a musharfe isnt willing to lay down his life cause his children study aboad and he loves the intoxicating smell of a brand new green dollar bill...then such gay inquiries and apologies wont serve any purpose.....Correct response is to shove a Babur Cruise Missile up bagram airbase's arse.....anything less would be useless...but i think this is too much....harame musharfees want to chill....they dont care whether 28 sons of soil die or 280.....what matters to them is how many dollars they receive each month for killing and allowing killing of their fellow countrymen.


If NATO argues that this was a 'mistaken strike on a border position' then Pakistan does not have any justification for 'launching cruise missiles at US forces' deliberately.

NATO would argue their attack was a mistake, whereas a Pakistani attack along the lines of what you suggest would be an 'Act of War'.

There must be a response from Pakistan beyond rhetoric, but that does not mean we resort to foolish and stupid actions.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bilalhaider said:


> But I think Kayani might be under pressure from people in the Army ranks itself to hit back at the US.


The best the Pak Mil can do outside of an 'Act of War' would be to deploy whatever AA defenses (capable of posing a threat to NATO air assets) it can with its border posts, and end drone attacks and take the issue to the UN.

My point however is that the Pak Mil position is going to be undermined by the current GoP leadership that will be telling the US that 'we want to continue cooperating with you but the military won't let us ...'.

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## Edevelop

Are we coming back to the Zardari agenda? Maybe PPP told NATO to come and do destruction so they could try and make an excuse to sack kayani's leadership in army. Is this possible?


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## Always Neutral

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 28 dead Pakistani soldiers on TWO POSTS and a NATO admission that it was their forces that did it is PROOF ENOUGH, especially given the long trail of thousands of dead bodies that were the result of 'NATO responding to fire from wedding parties, funeral processions, festivals and kids playing in fields'.



28 soldier kiled in Friendly Fire, done and i am sad, no guess why?
Punish the guilty i am on your side, no guess why?

Is DG ISPR, telling the truth? Sorry I will take a rain check as OBL never lived in Abbotabad?


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## logic

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If NATO argues that this was a 'mistaken strike on a border position' then Pakistan does not have any justification for 'launching cruise missiles at US forces' deliberately.
> 
> NATO would argue their attack was a mistake, whereas a Pakistani attack along the lines of what you suggest would be an 'Act of War'.
> 
> There must be a response from Pakistan beyond rhetoric, but that does not mean we resort to foolish and stupid actions.



The GOP will shiver to death at the idea of launching a lipstick at NATO.

GOP will continue making halwa until NATO arrives in Islamabad and after that
the GOP will be dragged like gaddafi on the streets of Islamabad by nato backed islamist radicals.


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## Always Neutral

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How is that comment relevant to my point?



Yes as the ultimate boss if he puts his men in a place where they cannot be protected than he is to blame.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Always Neutral said:


> Is DG ISPR, telling the truth? Sorry I will take a rain check as OBL never lived in Abbotabad?


Been over this plenty of times - why should the DG ISPR have known OBL lived in Abbottabad? Pakistan provided critical intelligence that led to the US finding OBL, it is the US that chose to deceive and backstab the PA and ISI by not sharing intelligence it developed from the information provided by Pakistan.

Again, resorting to canards to hijack from the arguments being made.

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## 53fd

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The best the Pak Mil can do outside of an 'Act of War' would be to deploy whatever AA defenses (capable of posing a threat to NATO air assets) it can with its border posts, and end drone attacks and take the issue to the UN.
> 
> My point however is that the Pak Mil position is going to be undermined by the current GoP leadership that will be telling the US that 'we want to continue cooperating with you but the military won't let us ...'.



The best thing the Pakistan military can do right now is to clamp hard at US presence inside Pakistan, close the supply lines permanently or indefinitely, ask them to vacate Shamsi airbase; & instead of burning bridges, the ISI should start creating a larger stake for itself in Afghanistan, & without going on an outright confrontation with the US, minimize all forms of co-operation with the US. We shall see the effects of these moves soon enough when Afghanistan is affected adversely, & it should also placate the Pakistani nation & the Army ranks somewhat, who threaten the the Zardari regime & Kayani respectively.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Always Neutral said:


> Yes as the ultimate boss if he puts his men in a place whre they cannot be protected than he is to blame.


It is a friggin border post, to act against Taliban militants, on Pakistani soil - how many NATO border posts are designed to withstand attacks from bombs dropped by fighter jets and missiles fired by Apache/Cobra's?

Stop spewing nonsense for the sake of arguing alone.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

third class said:


> come on Sir.....this mistaken strike thing...how could this be a misake....they have everything on their GPS...they see it from satellites and night vision stuff.......dont suggest new ideas to harame musharfees.....how can we possibly defend this...we lost 28 young guns....this is not a joke or an isolated case.......after hussain haqqani is removed...they have done this deliberately to change the mood and demand of countrymen.


OK, fine, then the best response along the lines of the one you want would be a similar 'mistake' in bombing NATO border posts, but you cannot claim 'mistake' by launching cruise missiles at their major bases.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Always Neutral said:


> than the same way we would not who was hiding in your check post? Why are you so sacred to send the international press there?



Low life british and americans.


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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Agreed that an apology won't bring back our martyrs - but if there is a joint investigation and the heads of State of NATO apologize, the response from Pakistan should also be tempered, though there should still be a response in terms of ending ALL US military operations on and from Pakistani territory from now on.



With strong anti-American sentiments prevailing through the Pakistani masses, I wonder if such an approach as you suggest will push them over the top. People may feel (I am not sure whether they would for certain) that the PA is colluding with with NATO in the investigation and is trying to play down the incident.

The Army too needs public support to maintain its strength, and unless something concrete is done that shall appear as punishing of the "perpetrators", the public support for the military will keep going down. People will feel that the PA is completely satisfied with nothing more than another NATO apology in exchange for the dead troops.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

President Camacho said:


> With strong anti-American sentiments prevailing through the Pakistani masses, I wonder if such an approach as you suggest will push them over the top. People may feel (I am not sure whether they would for certain) that the PA is colluding with with NATO in the investigation and is trying to play down the incident.
> 
> The Army too needs public support to maintain its strength, and unless something concrete is done that shall appear as punishing of the "perpetrators", the public support for the military will keep going down. People will feel that the PA is completely satisfied with nothing more than another NATO apology in exchange for the dead troops.



Livin upto ur signature..

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Always Neutral said:


> than the same way we would not who was hiding in your check post? Why are you so sacred to send the international press there?


You are a retard - what the bloody hell does that have to do with one individual hiding in a City?

I don't have any patience for your stupidity right now.

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## pak-marine

and the drama continues , what is it are they confused between who is the enemy whilst the enemy is on east - west and right between us ,,, this is what happens to a nation when you give your house keys to chowkidar , he has put up the house for sale


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## nForce

Okay..heres the thing.. this is what I m going to do.I will wait for 15 days,see what happens and find out what happens in reality......fingers crossed ..eh??

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## W.11

about time this neutral guy was banned


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## Desert Fox

This is the state of our current leaders, no ****!ng shame, they don't give two sh!ts for their own soldiers, remember the last time this happened, so called army spokesmen Athar Abbas ISPR stated that Pakistan will not tolerate it, what now Mr Abbas, only ****!ng empty promises. Scums are are in top positions, scums!!!!



> *28 Pak troops killed in NATO attack*
> 
> At least 28 Pakistani soldiers were killed today when NATO helicopters and combat jets fired on two border posts in the country's northwest, prompting army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani to direct his troops to prepare for "an effective response" even as authorities cut off all supplies for US
> forces in Afghanistan.
> 
> The attack, the worst single incident of its kind in one decade, looked set to plunge US-Pak relations, already deeply frayed, further into crisis. *A major and a captain of the Pakistan Army were among those killed when NATO aircraft fired at the borders posts in Baizai area of Mohmand tribal region at 2 am.*
> 
> *Fifteen more personnel were wounded and the death toll could rise as some of the injured were in a serious condition, several officials said. A military statement said the NATO aircraft "carried out unprovoked firing" on the border posts.* Pakistani troops "effectively responded immediately in self-defence to NATO/ISAF's aggression with all available weapons". Gen Kayani strongly condemned "NATO/ISAF's blatant and unacceptable act". While lauding the effective response by Pakistani soldiers, he issued orders for taking all necessary steps for "an effective response to this irresponsible act". Within hours of the attack, Pakistani authorities sealed off the country's border stopping all container trucks and tankers carrying supplies for US and NATO forces in Afghanistan. Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir called in US Ambassador Cameron Munter to lodge a "strong protest on the unprovoked NATO/ISAF attack", the Foreign Office said in a statement.
> 
> Bashir told the US envoy that the attack had "deeply incensed the government and the people of Pakistan". The President, Prime Minister and the government "strongly condemn the attacks which were totally unacceptable, constituted a grave infringement of Pakistan's sovereignty, were violative of international law and a serious transgression of the oft conveyed red lines", the statement said. The incident could have "serious repercussions on Pakistan-US/NATO/ISAF cooperation", the statement further said.
> 
> Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani described the incident as an "attack on Pakistan's security and sovereignty" and cut short a visit to his hometown of Multan to rush back to Islamabad. He convened a meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet to formulate Pakistan's response to the incident. Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Governor Masood Kausar, while talking to media in Islamabad, put the death toll at 26. However, other officials were quoted by the media as saying that 28 soldiers were killed. The attack comes at a time when US-Pak relations have plunged to a new low since early this year over the Raymond Davis episode and the unilateral raid by US that killed al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad on May 2. US Ambassador Munter expressed regret at today's incident and offered assistance in probing it. In a statement issued by the US Embassy, Munter said: "I regret the loss of life of any Pakistani servicemen, and pledge that the United States will work closely with Pakistan to investigate this incident". A spokesman for the NATO-led ISAF in Kabul said the coalition was aware of "an incident" near the border and was gathering information on it.
> 
> Security forces blocked all entry points to Mohmand Agency after the incident and began checking all vehicles. Several crossings on the Afghanistan frontier, including Landikotal and Takhtbai, were closed and over 150 NATO supply vehicles were turned back to Peshawar. The Pakistan Embassy in the US lodged a verbal protest over the attack. The Deputy Chief of Mission Iffat Gardezi contacted the US State Department at midnight and described the incident as "unprovoked". Pakistan's Ambassador to the European Union, Jalil Abbas Jilani, lodged a similar protest with NATO. Former premier Nawaz Sharif, the chief of the PML-N, condemned the incident and described it as an "act of terrorism" while Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaf chief Imran Khan called on the government to pull out of the US-led war on terrorism.
> 
> The incident occurred just a day after Gen Kayani and the commander of coalition forces in Afghanistan, Gen John Allen, met in Islamabad and discussed the need for tighter measures to block the movement of militants across the Pak-Afghan border. In May, two Pakistani soldiers were injured in an exchange of fire with two NATO helicopters from Afghanistan that intruded into the volatile North Waziristan tribal region. Pakistan had retaliated against yet another incursion by NATO helicopters in September last year, which killed two Pakistani soldiers, by shutting down the main supply route for NATO forces.
> 
> The route was reopened after the US tendered an official apology for the incursion. Prior to today's attack, the deadliest attack on Pakistani soldiers involving NATO occurred in June 2008, when 11 soldiers were killed in an air strike in Mohmand Agency.


28 Pak troops killed in NATO attack - Hindustan Times


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

President Camacho said:


> The Army too needs public support to maintain its strength, and unless something concrete is done that shall appear as punishing of the "perpetrators", the public support for the military will keep going down. People will feel that the PA is completely satisfied with nothing more than another NATO apology in exchange for the dead troops.



Tangible actions - Take drone strikes, border attacks and supply routes issue to UN and officially declare an end to support for all three and enforce it - i.e. start shooting down drones. The issue will be in the UN, so if the US really thinks it has the international legal justification to conduct them, it can try and pass a UNSC resolution declaring the same.


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## W.11

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Tangible actions - Take drone strikes, border attacks and supply routes issue to UN and officially declare an end to support for all three and enforce it - i.e. start shooting down drones. The issue will be in the UN, so if the US really thinks it has the international legal justification to conduct them, it can try and pass a UNSC resolution declaring the same.



its time that first pakistan separates from the WOT, and then take the next step as you have written


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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Tangible actions - Take drone strikes, border attacks and supply routes issue to UN and officially declare an end to support for all three and enforce it - i.e. start shooting down drones. The issue will be in the UN, so if the US really thinks it has the international legal justification to conduct them, it can try and pass a UNSC resolution declaring the same.



That's exactly what I was thinking too. If things go by with just words exchanged by each side, there will be loss of moral too among the PA troops. This incident is grave enough to demand for some tangible actions.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yet you had no problem arguing that 'might is right' in the case of 'injustice being meted out' when Raymond Davis murdered two Pakistanis in cold blood and the US was attempting to coerce Pakistan into launching a military operation in NW.
> 
> This is rather hypocritical - if it is 'justice' that you support, then justice demands that either side play by the same rules and be judged in the same manner.



That is NOT what I argued in RD's case; I had merely accepted the ground realities, just as PA will need to accept the ground realities in this case.


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## Desert Fox

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Tangible actions - Take drone strikes, border attacks and supply routes issue to UN and officially declare an end to support for all three and enforce it - i.e. start shooting down drones. The issue will be in the UN, so if the US really thinks it has the international legal justification to conduct them,* it can try and pass a UNSC resolution declaring the same.



As if the UN even matters, who are you kidding? If the UN was even relevant then most of the worlds major conflicts would have been resolved (Kashmir, palestine/israel, etc.). The thing is, the salves who are sitting in higher positions can't bite the hand that feeds them, the most they can do is bark and as the saying goes "Barking dogs seldom bite".


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> That is NOT what I argued in RD's case; I had merely accepted the ground realities, just as PA will need to accept the ground realities in this case.



The ground realities are only what you make them out to be with your actions.


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## krash

KarachiPunk said:


> give kayani to the *public*, we need to chitrol that bastard



Oh really? You mean the same blood thirsty, backstabbing, corrupt, hypocrite, idiotic, uneducated, emotionally high, senseless, honor-less, unfaithful and stupid sheep? Get off of your high horse and give this holier than thou attitude a rest. The worst thing that happened to Pakistan are its people, you and me.

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## khanz4996

Tayyab1796 said:


> Pak must demand following to reopen the supply route :
> a million US dollar compensation foer each Pak solider who died or was injured during the raid on Salala checkpost . Trust me US will never dare do something like this again . They count everything in dollars ... and once they start losing those they will think a thousand times before daring again.


they will print more 25 million its like a drop in the ocean because they dollars never open suplly routes and order to shootdown any intruder manned or unmanned


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The government is going to do nothing other than rhetoric - it'll throw the military under the bus - Zardari and company will secretly be telling the US that they don't care about the attack but have to make statements for public consumption, and that the 'military needs to be brought under control'.



I am afraid the realization that the Army's goose is cooked already will sink in only gradually.

---------- Post added at 05:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> The ground realities are only what you make them out to be with your actions.



Absolutely correct; and we already see what the ground realities are in the present case quite clearly, don't we all?

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## sarthak

Hu Songshan said:


> Pakistan needs to cut off Supply lines, Get Out of the War on Terror, and make any US-NATO bases in Pakistan vacated.Cut it off permanently.



Pakistan will harm itself more by stopping the war on terror. USA is nicely protected by the atlantic ocean , it will be affected very little. How many terrorist attacks in the US after 9 /11? Pakistan should fight the war on terror on its own terms without NATO guidance or support.


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## Edevelop

These Americans and Brits say that they gave us aid. I want to make something clear here:

We did not receive aid. 

The money they gave us was for the bloody supplies we transport to them in Afghanistan. 

Also these people forgot the fact that there are still NATO soldiers in Pakistan. That being said, they have been enjoying themselves. The money is brought into the country for them not for us.

Musharraf had a deal with them. The more men we give the more money we get. Its says in his book. Deal is a Deal and this is not an aid.

Last but not least, we purchased F-16s from them during 1980s-1990s. Rather than having them delivered to us, they were embargoed in Arizona without even returning our firkin money. So lets say even if they did give us the billion dollars, it makes perfect sense for that cause of reason...

Our army even said that this so called 'aid' makes no difference. For a sake of analysis here, there is no such thing as aid in Pakistan and also it really means that it has no effect on us for war on terror.

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## W.11

sarthak said:


> Pakistan will harm itself more by stopping the war on terror. USA is nicely protected by the atlantic ocean , it will be affected very little. How many terrorist attacks in the US after 9 /11? Pakistan should fight the war on terror on its own terms without NATO guidance or support.



pakistan will not stop WOT, pakistan will not take part in war on terror simple, if our separation stopsthe war, we dont care a squat, deal with it


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## sarthak

KarachiPunk said:


> pakistan will not stop WOT, pakistan will not take part in war on terror simple



LOL , that's the same as stopping war on terror, just using different words. Don't you think that if you stop the war on terror , all the operations that PA has been conducting will go waste? Militants will get time to regroup and recruit.


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## W.11

sarthak said:


> LOL , that's the same as stopping war on terror, just using different words. Don't you think that if you stop the war on terror , all the operations that PA has been conducting will go waste? Militants will get time to regroup and recruit.



why do we care, they started the war, they carry it on, they are killing us civilians and now military both, why should we help them in their war now??? do we have any obligation towards them?? let them keep their aid, we dont care simple

infact pakistan must approach international tribunal for justice

this is no more war on terror, its war by terrorists

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## Desert Fox

KarachiPunk said:


> pakistan will not stop WOT, pakistan will not take part in war on terror simple, if our separation stopsthe war, we dont care a squat, deal with it



The PAKISTANI so called "Army" and government aren't out of their minds that they will bite the hand that feeds them, they need the "aid" money for their banks, mansions, etc, as long as the money is flowing they can care less how many PAKISTANI civilians and PAKISTANI soldiers get butchered, as long as the money is flowing, they can care less if Pakistan is depending on loans from the IMF, it benefits them after all.


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## VCheng

KarachiPunk said:


> ............
> infact pakistan must approach international tribunal for justice
> 
> ..............................



Be careful what you wish for!


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## RedBeard

innalillahiwainnailaihirojiun rest in peace lions and we Turks share your pain brothers. 

When things like these happen to our brother country, i feel ashamed that my country is a part of NATO eventhough it has nothing to do with Turkey but still we feel guilty.

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## RedBeard

erent language!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

I just talked to my father about the tragic ... A frnd of my father is commanding the* 77th brigade tht was hit *by these bastards today.... im told that the HQ of the brigade was KNOWN to NATO... It was MARKED....and *TODAYS ACCIDENT WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT.*

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## W.11

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I just talked to my father about the tragic ... A frnd of my father is commanding the* 77th brigade tht was hit *by these bastards today.... im told that the HQ of the brigade was KNOWN to NATO... It was MARKED....and *TODAYS ACCIDENT WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT.*



whts bloody new in tht, its all over the news


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## Desert Fox

RedBeard said:


> innalillahiwainnailaihirojiun rest in peace lions and we Turks share your pain brothers.
> 
> When things like these happen to our brother country, i feel ashamed that my country is a part of NATO eventhough it has nothing to do with Turkey but still we feel guilty.



No reason to feel guilty brother, why should you feel guilty if the Pakistanis who are indirectly responsible for the death of these soldiers don't feel guilty? If our so called "army's" leadership had a pair then no one, no matter how big and strong, would be pushing us around like this. So don't you feel sad for us, we don't deserve anyone's pity.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

KarachiPunk said:


> whts bloody new in tht, its all over the news


 
The new thing abt the accident is tht it was INTENTIONAL... Punk!


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Absolutely correct; and we already see what the ground realities are in the present case quite clearly, don't we all?



I don't think we have seen the whole thing yet.


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## raavan

punishment for Pakistan???

&#39;NATO strike revenge for Pakistan crackdown on CIA assets&#39; - YouTube

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## DESERT FIGHTER

They will get what they deserve........ i can bet on it.

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> I don't think we have seen the whole thing yet.



Not yet, but soon, and it will be quite tragic.


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## W.11

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The new thing abt the accident is tht it was INTENTIONAL... Punk!



there is nothing new, DG ISPR already informed 'the nation'


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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> They will get what they deserve........ i can bet on it.



Correct, what either deserves is what either will get.


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## raavan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The new thing abt the accident is tht it was INTENTIONAL... Punk!



ITs obvious that it was obvious


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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> That is NOT what I argued in RD's case; I had merely accepted the ground realities, just as PA will need to accept the ground realities in this case.



the ground realties might mean demorilization of PA soldiers this time around. The feelings of despairment that high command can't stand up for them could mean disastrous. Something concrete has to be done. The same rehtoric from politcos of mere condenment and promises investigations and apologies from culprits might not cut it this time around.

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## VCheng

iPhone said:


> the ground realties might mean demorilization of PA soldiers this time around. The feelings of despairment that high command can't stand up for them could mean disastrous. Something concrete has to be done. The same rehtoric from politcos of mere condenment and promises investigations and apologies from culprits might not cut it this time around.



Very correct, but what you ask for will not materialize, sadly.

---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------




penumbra said:


> Stingers or Anzas should doe the job.
> 
> ...................



There is nothing to be gained by military escalation for either side.


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## Bl[i]tZ

Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official
.
.
.
I am not aware of the casualties on the other side of the border but those we have detained aren't Afghan Taliban," he said, implying they may have been Pakistani
.
.
.
But a more troubling explanation would be that insurgents in the area were operating under the nose of Pakistani security forces. Many Afghan officials believe Pakistan helps the Taliban with cross-border operations.

Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official | World news | The Observer


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## DESERT FIGHTER

I wish luck to Afghan TALIBAN...

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## iPhone

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The government is going to do nothing other than rhetoric - it'll throw the military under the bus - Zardari and company will secretly be telling the US that they don't care about the attack but have to make statements for public consumption, and that the 'military needs to be brought under control'.



best solution, IMO, from military leaders, is the blockade indifinetly. That will address a multitudes of issues. A coup within the army and subsiding of feelings of resentment among the lower ranks being many of them.


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## W.11

Bl[i]tZ;2329048 said:


> Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official
> .
> .
> .
> I am not aware of the casualties on the other side of the border but those we have detained aren't Afghan Taliban," he said, implying they may have been Pakistani
> .
> .
> .
> But a more troubling explanation would be that insurgents in the area were operating under the nose of Pakistani security forces. Many Afghan officials believe Pakistan helps the Taliban with cross-border operations.
> 
> Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official | World news | The Observer



so who are they if not afghan taliban, if pakistani soldiers why not name them???, why are they playing a guessing game???

also the soldiers were sleeping, how is this self defence to attack a check post??


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## VCheng

iPhone said:


> best solution, IMO, from military leaders, is the blockade indifinetly. That will address a multitudes of issues. A coup within the army and subsiding of feelings of resentment among the lower ranks being many of them.



So is Pakistan prepared economically for the response that will surely follow a prolonged blockade?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bl[i]tZ;2329048 said:


> Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official
> .
> .
> .
> I am not aware of the casualties on the other side of the border but those we have detained aren't Afghan Taliban," he said, implying they may have been Pakistani
> .
> .
> .
> But a more troubling explanation would be that insurgents in the area were operating under the nose of Pakistani security forces. Many Afghan officials believe Pakistan helps the Taliban with cross-border operations.
> 
> Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official | World news | The Observer




2.5 km inside Pakistan and bombing a PA hq in self defence? what a retarded son of a b...ch!

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## W.11

if NATO is right, why america is apologising???? idiot


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## VCheng

KarachiPunk said:


> if NATO is right, why america is apologising???? idiot



The apology is for the loss of Pakistani personnel; that is only appropriate, but should be followed by more more steps on both sides.


----------



## waz

Bl[i]tZ;2329048 said:


> Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official
> .
> .
> .
> I am not aware of the casualties on the other side of the border but those we have detained aren't Afghan Taliban," he said, implying they may have been Pakistani
> .
> .
> .
> But a more troubling explanation would be that insurgents in the area were operating under the nose of Pakistani security forces. Many Afghan officials believe Pakistan helps the Taliban with cross-border operations.
> 
> Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official | World news | The Observer




*Edrees Momand of the Afghan Border Police* Trust worthy source right there. 

That would probably explain why they are falling over themselves to apologise right?


----------



## raavan

VCheng said:


> The apology is for the loss of Pakistani personnel; that is only appropriate, but should be followed by more more steps on both sides.


Apologies are accepted incase of mistakes not in case of murder


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Not yet, but soon, and it will be quite tragic.



Care to explain what you mean by that?


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

iPhone said:


> best solution, IMO, from military leaders, is the blockade indifinetly. That will address a multitudes of issues. A coup within the army and subsiding of feelings of resentment among the lower ranks being many of them.



First only 35% of US logistics goes through Pakistan, rest goes through NDN.

Lets assume that this hurts the NATO very badly, have you thought through the repercussion of such a blockade?







There can be other blockades too, say in the Arabian sea.

The world is not about morality, it is about who can enforce their will.


----------



## iPhone

logic said:


> There could be several possibilities some of them are as follows.
> 
> 1. Coup against Kiyani
> 2. Coup against Zardari
> 3. Coup against all above
> 
> but one thing is sure whoever is behind this dirty game has planned it for a long time and *all the pieces are falling into place.*
> 
> But one thing is for sure NATO is like a gang of drunk youths with a high tendency of anti-social behavior.



actually, it seems the pieces are NOT falling into place thus such acts of desperation. Merely anylizing, of course, first they tried for a coup with the infamous letter, that didn't work and now this, and if this doesn't work then whatever else is lined up.


----------



## 53fd

Bl[i]tZ;2329080 said:


> First only 35% of US logistics goes through Pakistan, rest goes through NDN.
> 
> Lets assume that this hurts the NATO very badly, have you thought through the repercussion of such a blockade?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There can be other blockades too, say in the Arabian sea.
> 
> The world is not about morality, it is about who can enforce their will.



49% of all supplies go through Pakistan, & majority of the military supplies go through Pakistan, whereas most of the non-military supplies go through the Central Asian route.


----------



## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Care to explain what you mean by that?



Pakistan will increasingly find itself deeper and deeper in a quagmire of its own making on many fronts.

---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 PM ----------




raavan said:


> Apologies are accepted incase of mistakes not in case of murder



The Pakistani losses are a grave mistake for sure, and thus the apology is appropriate.


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Pakistan will increasingly find itself deeper and deeper in a quagmire of its own making on many fronts.



It is already facing challenges on many fronts, but if you think there will be outright confrontation between the US & Pakistan, that's not going to happen.


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

bilalhaider said:


> 49% of all supplies go through Pakistan, & majority of the military supplies go through Pakistan, whereas most of the non-military supplies go through the Central Asian route.



You're quoting aljazeera which is quoting an "unnamed" NATO spokesperson. I posted the testimony submitted to senate armed services subcommittee by the guy who runs logistics.

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## iPhone

Bl[i]tZ;2329080 said:


> First only 35% of US logistics goes through Pakistan, rest goes through NDN.
> 
> Lets assume that this hurts the NATO very badly, have you thought through the repercussion of such a blockade?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There can be other blockades too, say in the Arabian sea.
> 
> The world is not about morality, it is about who can enforce their will.



35 percent? even if it's 5 percent it must be blocked. it isn't about how much supplies are going through how it will hurt the recievers it is about you standing up for your men. I have been repeatedly saying here what's worrysome here is a soldier's sense of 'revenge'. If the soldiers start feeling their general has thrown them in hell and into blind enemy fire and bound their hands to retaliate in return and also has refused to provide them tools to relatiate, I dont need to spell out how ugly it can get.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

VCheng said:


> So is Pakistan prepared economically for the response that will surely follow a prolonged blockade?


Nations are build in hard times , No one will go hungry if you live in your means. 
Pakistan is a grownup still living in the parents house , it needs to leave the US house to stand on its feet

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## Bl[i]tZ

iPhone said:


> 35 percent? even if it's 5 percent it must be blocked. it isn't about how much supplies are going through how it will hurt the recievers it is about you standing up for your men. I have been repeatedly saying here what's worrysome here is a soldier's sense of 'revenge'. If the soldiers start feeling their general has thrown them in hell and into blind enemy fire and bound their hands to retaliate in return and also has refused to provide them tools to relatiate, I dont need to spell out how ugly it can get.



I agree. The anti-Americanism in the society has slowly and steadily seeped into the army.

After such an incident the lower ranks look upto their superiors. This makes it even more difficult for the Army's top brass to justify to the lower ranks 

why are they fighting?

who are they fighting?

The other part of the equation the top brass has to deal with is co-operation with US.


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## Edevelop

KarachiPunk said:


> if *kayani has some dick*, he will deploy the defense system along the border, next step
> 
> bhai yeah to kerde aur kuch ker nai sakta beghairat



You don't make sense.
If you don't know how to use this word then keep your mouth shut. If you know how to use this word then at least try to make sense out of it. You didn't do both of these things so you're the one who is 'beghairat'.

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## 53fd

Bl[i]tZ;2329091 said:


> You're quoting aljazeera which is quoting an "unnamed" NATO spokesperson. I posted the testimony submitted to senate armed services subcommittee by the guy who runs logistics.



This is from a few weeks ago:



> *&#8220;We&#8217;re going to probably replace 50 percent of what we ship into Afghanistan from Pakistan,* will go through the northern route, Uzbekistan,&#8221; Graham, a member of the appropriations committee, said.



Concern about Pakistan as US war supply route &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## DESERT FIGHTER

We should seperate frm the WOT... block the bloody nato supplies n be done with it... while ensuring our national interests in Afghanistan at *any cost*!

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## Bl[i]tZ

With the sense of betrayal and injustice done by the NATO onto Pakistan, the Generals will have to play an even more delicate dance of calls of their lower ranks with the relations with US.

Going too far with the anti-Americanism, say if the relationship is called off will lead to making of another North Korea and going too far towards the Americans will create more a sense of betrayal in the lower ranks and also the various militant groups that operate in the region.


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## 53fd

According to the Long War Journal, about 70% of NATO's overall supplies in Afghanistan go through Pakistan:



> Shamsi is used as both a NATO logistics base and as a key node in the CIA's Predator and Reaper drone campaign in North and South Waziristan, *while an estimated 70 percent of NATO's supplies pass through Pakistan*



Pakistan orders closure of key US airbase after ISAF troops conduct cross-border attack - The Long War Journal


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## Bl[i]tZ

bilalhaider said:


> This is from a few weeks ago:
> 
> 
> 
> Concern about Pakistan as US war supply route &#8211; The Express Tribune



If x were the %age of supplies through Pak, that statement seems like reducing x to x/2 and not saying that x is 50%.


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## Donatello

Bl[i]tZ;2329102 said:


> I agree. The anti-Americanism in the society has slowly and steadily seeped into the army.
> 
> After such an incident the lower ranks look upto their superiors. This makes it even more difficult for the Army's top brass to justify to the lower ranks
> 
> why are they fighting?
> 
> who are they fighting?
> 
> The other part of the equation the top brass has to deal with is co-operation with US.




I wonder what is more difficult to comprehend and accept.....NATO killing our innocent troops....or Indians poking their heads in places they shouldn't be...(here on PDF)


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## 53fd

Bl[i]tZ;2329124 said:


> If x were the %age of supplies through Pak, that statement seems like reducing x to x/2 and not saying that x is 50%.



Yes, it says that they are going to replace 50% of what gets to Afghanistan from Pakistan; meaning that the supplies that go through Pakistan are more than 50%.


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> This is from a few weeks ago:
> 
> Concern about Pakistan as US war supply route &#8211; The Express Tribune





bilalhaider said:


> Yes, it says that they are going to replace 50% of what gets to Afghanistan from Pakistan; meaning that the supplies that go through Pakistan are more than 50%.



Wrong. Completely wrong.That means 50% of the existing 35%.

Anyway its not relevant.

What is the ISPR saying about this ? Any links ?


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> That means 50% of the existing 35%.



Anyways, according to the Long War Journal, 70% of NATO's supplies go through Pakistan.


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## raavan

Imran khan on the incident

Imran Khan very angry speaks on NATO Attack on Pakistani forces. - YouTube

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## Indian Tiger

NATO attack fallout: Pakistan tells US to vacate airbase

NATO attack fallout: Pakistan tells US to vacate airbase


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Bl[i]tZ;2329139 said:


> Agreed!
> 
> 
> 
> Care to explain, how did you arrive at this conclusion?



Russia doesnt allow military supplies... all the military supplies,oil and other goods go through Pakistan.. which account for over 50%-70% of over all NATO supplies.

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## HavocHeaven

R.I.P. to those soldiers.


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## 53fd

Bl[i]tZ;2329139 said:


> Care to explain, how did you arrive at this conclusion?



50% of the supplies Afghanistan get from Pakistan (out of 50% + x%) will be replaced, meaning Pakistan's supply route will be used for x% supplies by NATO.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Zardari to Pak Army : that's your punishment to remove ambassador Haqqani a faithful US agent, who was running our operations in Pakistan.
Wasn't that in the memo to punish Army for attempting to remove them

In media Zardari is still quiet about the incident

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## 53fd

It's funny that Indians are not commenting on Long War Journal stating 70% of NATO's supplies in Afghanistan go through Pakistan, because they are quick to quote it as indisputable proof when they accuse Pakistan of being complicit with the Haqqanis/Taliban.


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## Desert Fox

Indian Tiger said:


> NATO attack fallout: Pakistan tells US to vacate airbase
> 
> NATO attack fallout: Pakistan tells US to vacate airbase



Didn't they already vacate that airbase? or was that also another lie fed to the people by the Pakistan "armed forces".


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## rohailmalhi

What ever it is those son of soil gave there lives just that we are safe in our home.I am very sad today at the death of our soldier for no reason.May there souls rest in Peace and May the Mothers keep giving birth to the lions who can protect their mother land with their life.

We should if we somehow grew balls to take a stand in such a way that get out of lap of uncle Sam.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Desert Fox said:


> Didn't they already vacate that airbase? or was that also another lie fed to the people by the Pakistan "armed forces".



Or the GoP tht is responsible for it.


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## Bl[i]tZ

bilalhaider said:


> 50% of the supplies Afghanistan get from Pakistan (out of 50% + x%) will be replaced, meaning Pakistan's supply route will be used for x% supplies by NATO.



Here you go -

&#8220;We&#8217;re going to probably replace 50 percent of (x/2) what we ship into Afghanistan from Pakistan (x), will go through the northern route, Uzbekistan,&#8221; Graham, a member of the appropriations committee, said.

The implicit assumption that 50% goes through Pak is wrong.

I post my source again 

In n July, John McCain asked the incoming Commander of US Transportation Command, at the latter's Senate confirmation hearing

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Fraser, to follow up on Chairman Levin&#8217;s question about what would happen if Pakistan cut off its supply routes, what percent of our logistics now goes through Pakistan? 

General FRASER. Sir, it is my understanding that approximately 35 percent moves through the ground, and the other is moving through the Northern Distribution Network, coupled with also the lift as we bring in supplies by air.

Source hearing at Senate Armed Services Committee http://armed-services.senate.gov/Tra... 7-21-11.pdf

Lets not derail this thread into a Reading Comprehension forum.

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## 53fd

Bl[i]tZ;2329186 said:


> Here you go -
> 
> &#8220;We&#8217;re going to probably replace 50 percent of (x/2) what we ship into Afghanistan from Pakistan (x), will go through the northern route, Uzbekistan,&#8221; Graham, a member of the appropriations committee, said.
> 
> The implicit assumption that 50% goes through Pak is wrong.
> 
> I post my source again
> 
> In n July, John McCain asked the incoming Commander of US Transportation Command, at the latter's Senate confirmation hearing
> 
> Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Fraser, to follow up on Chairman Levin&#8217;s question about what would happen if Pakistan cut off its supply routes, what percent of our logistics now goes through Pakistan?
> 
> General FRASER. Sir, it is my understanding that approximately 35 percent moves through the ground, and the other is moving through the Northern Distribution Network, coupled with also the lift as we bring in supplies by air.
> 
> Source hearing at Senate Armed Services Committee http://armed-services.senate.gov/Tra... 7-21-11.pdf
> 
> Lets not derail this thread into a Reading Comprehension forum.



Even if we go by your logic, & looking at Long War Journal, 70% of Afghanistan's current supply goes through Pakistan; & if they plan on changing 50% of those supplies to go through Central Asia, that means 35% of the supplies will still go through Pakistan *in the future*.* But as of now, 70% of Afghanistan's supplies go through Pakistan. *


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Bl[i]tZ;2329186 said:


> Here you go -
> 
> &#8220;We&#8217;re going to probably replace 50 percent of (x/2) what we ship into Afghanistan from Pakistan (x), will go through the northern route, Uzbekistan,&#8221; Graham, a member of the appropriations committee, said.
> 
> The implicit assumption that 50% goes through Pak is wrong.
> 
> I post my source again
> 
> In n July, John McCain asked the incoming Commander of US Transportation Command, at the latter's Senate confirmation hearing
> 
> Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Fraser, to follow up on Chairman Levin&#8217;s question about what would happen if Pakistan cut off its supply routes, what percent of our logistics now goes through Pakistan?
> 
> General FRASER. Sir, it is my understanding that approximately 35 percent moves through the ground, and the other is moving through the Northern Distribution Network, coupled with also the lift as we bring in supplies by air.
> 
> Source hearing at Senate Armed Services Committee http://armed-services.senate.gov/Tra... 7-21-11.pdf
> 
> Lets not derail this thread into a Reading Comprehension forum.



So US needs to spend three times more on the war cost.


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## rohailmalhi

indianrabbit said:


> whatever be the percentage US will not be impacted. Keep feeling good about petty achievement, if you feel it as one.



Yeah whatever no one asked u abt what US will feel or not .We have to take a stand ,and inshaallah we are going to take a stand.
even if doesnt matter , it matters to us coz they are using our land to get those bullet with which they kill our soldier.
So let them see another route we have no issue with that.

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## 53fd

Bl[i]tZ;2329186 said:


> Here you go -
> 
> &#8220;We&#8217;re going to probably replace 50 percent of (x/2) what we ship into Afghanistan from Pakistan (x), will go through the northern route, Uzbekistan,&#8221; Graham, a member of the appropriations committee, said.
> 
> The implicit assumption that 50% goes through Pak is wrong.
> 
> I post my source again
> 
> In n July, John McCain asked the incoming Commander of US Transportation Command, at the latter's Senate confirmation hearing
> 
> Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Fraser, to follow up on Chairman Levin&#8217;s question about what would happen if Pakistan cut off its supply routes, what percent of our logistics now goes through Pakistan?
> 
> General FRASER. Sir, it is my understanding that approximately 35 percent moves through the ground, and the other is moving through the Northern Distribution Network, coupled with also the lift as we bring in supplies by air.
> 
> Source hearing at Senate Armed Services Committee http://armed-services.senate.gov/Tra... 7-21-11.pdf
> 
> Lets not derail this thread into a Reading Comprehension forum.



This testimony is about ground supplies only, not about the aerial supplies.


----------



## atharvya

Speaking to The Express Tribune, Caitlin Hayden, a spokesperson for the White House said, Senior US civilian and military officials have been in touch with their Pakistani counterparts from Islamabad, Kabul and Washington to express our condolences.
She stressed that both countries remained committed to fighting terrorism, our desire to work together to determine what took place, and our commitment to the US-Pakistan partnership which advances our shared interests, including fighting terrorism in the region.
------------------------------------------------------------
looks like us strategy is going to play down the incident and blame it on some kind of miss communication.....and by the way what kind of statement is this to be given at this time*"She stressed that both countries remained committed to fighting terrorism"*.....its like adding insult to the injury.


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

raavan said:


> Imran khan on the incident
> 
> Imran Khan very angry speaks on NATO Attack on Pakistani forces. - YouTube



Imran Khan is a good man!


----------



## 53fd

It's very simple. It is made abundantly clear by the Long War Journal that 70% of Afghanistan's supplies currently go through Pakistan, & the NATO wants to reduce that to half, meaning that their aim is to have 35% of Afghanistan's supplies to flow through Pakistan* in the future. But as of now, 70% of NATO's supplies in Afghanistan flow through Pakistan. *


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

mr42O said:


> I am not against Army at all. I love my army but there are som bad eggs there too since they are Pakistanies as me u and our leaders. *B U T*
> 
> 1. How can army ppl with silary they have made so much property ?



Can you kindly provide me with sources? my father is a serving Brig.



> 2. Airstaff said but its army cheif staff who runs army did he ever said that ?



When he said something abt the kerry lugger bill people were talking about military involvement in political affairs... and now this?... Isnt it a fact tht PPP govt has allowed drone strikes in Pakistan?.. Do you think PAK ARMY doesnt care abt its own people? the soldiers martyred today were part of the brotherhood werent they?would any brother tolerate the death of his brother?....Whose stopping the *govt* frm ordering to stop NATO supplies permanently?




> 3. Army and Pakistanies dont want there soldiers die but some gernals does not care about common soldier



Not true....Ive seen officers getting drumed out coz of insulting a JCO!



> 4. Dont need to fight NATO but defend ur country.



Tell govt... and army will comply..WILCO!



> 5. I know some ppl who were in PML-N but resgined due to davis case told me that army gernals were involved to get him released.



How did the generals release him when he was arrested by the police? the govt ministers advocating his "immunity" and their relatives accepting blood money? how was the army even involved?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

atharvya said:


> instead of rhetoric........smart foreign policy and better decision making will help you more.



The country is ruled by snakes who can sell their mothers to stay in power... the snake leading is the man who spent his life in jail in cases of corruption,murders etc and killed his own wife for power... Gillani is a puppet whose satisfied with the power,money n tenders passed to his relatives... while we have snakes like hussien haqqani towing the american agenda.. What can we possibly expect from them?

---------- Post added at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------




justanobserver said:


> Actually I opened the .pdf files. The whole convo is pretty clear
> 
> http://armed-services.senate.gov/Transcripts/2011/07 July/11-63 - 7-21-11.pdf
> 
> 
> The highlighted part is crystal clear on which supplies he's talking about



Cool story man.. i accept it.. you happy now?... can i now tell you to kindly get lost?

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## Hyde

These were 28 soldiers so we all know they were killed

Imagine who many civilians are killed and later proclaimed as Taliban's

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> It is already facing challenges on many fronts, but if you think there will be outright confrontation between the US & Pakistan, that's not going to happen.



I have always maintained that there is never going to be a need for direct confrontation; merely a slow and steady tightening of the noose already in place will do the job just fine over the next few years. What's the rush?


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## W.11

it is well under plan that this government will finish next year's march and new elections will take place or army will take over


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## Bl[i]tZ

VCheng said:


> I have always maintained that there is never going to be a need for direct confrontation; merely a slow and steady tightening of the noose already in place will do the job just fine over the next few years. What's the rush?



I agree but this argument fails if US leaves behind 20-30k troops with SF, drones, CAS aircraft etc.

We'll start withdrawing in 2012, transitioning completely to Afghans by 2014 is a political stunt by Pres Obama for 2012 elections.

US will transition from a CI to CT strategy by reducing its footprint and handing over the win hearts and minds strategy to the Afghans.

US is here to stay - it needs to work towards weaning away the erstwhile Soviet Union states away from Russia.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Imran Khan said:


> common pak army we are not stupids its 15th time you are using same BS
> 
> LAST TIME it was under UAE


not Pakistan army but the Govt. its PM Yousaf saying that closing it yet again altough it might be already vacant


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## lkozhi

The only thing that comes out is how many airbases are under us control


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> That is NOT what I argued in RD's case; I had merely accepted the ground realities, just as PA will need to accept the ground realities in this case.


 
Again, your 'ground realities' require acceptance of the 'might is right' principle, and an acceptance of 'injustice, inequality and lack of freedom' - in essence your 'accept ground realities' argument perpetuates that status quo of 'lack of equality, freedom, and justice' in Pakistani society that you were commending Asim on in his post.

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## VCheng

KarachiPunk said:


> it is well under plan that this government will finish next year's march and new elections will take place or army will take over



The Army will not take over for the foreseeable future.



Bl[i]tZ;2329280 said:


> I agree but this argument fails if US leaves behind 20-30k troops with SF, drones, CAS aircraft etc.
> 
> We'll start withdrawing in 2012, transitioning completely to Afghans is a political stunt by Pres Obama for 2012 elections.
> 
> US will transition from a CI to CT strategy by reducing its footprint and handing over the win hearts and minds strategy to the Afghans.



The US is not leaving Afghanistan, and there will be only be a veneer of winning hearts and minds.

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## idune

indianrabbit said:


> Very little u can do about it, even if they attack again.



Little or not, what Pakistan can do is sole matter for Pakistan. But obviously indians are here for sick pleasure - no surprise there.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Again, your 'ground realities' require acceptance of the 'might is right' principle, and an acceptance of 'injustice, inequality and lack of freedom' - in essence your 'accept ground realities' argument perpetuates that status quo of 'lack of equality, freedom, and justice' in Pakistani society that you were commending Asim on in his post.



Please let me explain: I agree with Asim that the present lack of justice, equality and freedom is a problem. I also recognize that unless those changes are implemented _inhouse _in Pakistan FIRST, these realities on the ground will continue to reign. *Unless Paksitan has those measures in place to win the respect of its own people, others will not respect it either.*

I hope I am clear in conveying the consistency in my position.

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## American Pakistani




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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> The apology is for the loss of Pakistani personnel; that is only appropriate, but should be followed by more more steps on both sides.



How can an apology grantee that such incident would not come up in future.After some similar incidents the Maps of Pakistani border Posts were provided to the ISAF for future reference and the Post which was fired upon was clearly mentioned in the Map but yet it was still ignored and fired upon, To add more the ISAF commander just held the meetings with there Pakistani counterparts merely a few hours before this tragic incident for the purpose of improving coordination,Further the Area in which this post is located has been cleared off from the miscreants.
It is quite obvious that either this incident is directly supported by the Nato or some bastard flying that chopper realy fkd up, either ways an apology would not be enough for a mistake which has been done over and over again.
The best possible path could be that NATO as org not only apologizes for such act but should also take necessary on ground steps to ensure that such incidents never arise again in future , Plus a viable explanation should be provided to the masses and also the afectees should be compensated by Nato.It should also launch an inquiry board comprising of members from Nato and Pakistan with an aim of providing acceptable explanation to the masses in Pakistan and also a coordination should be established to prevent such incidents.!!!
But All of that has been done in the Past too, This time it would Not be easy even for the PA's Top brass,even willingly, to let Nato go on with it and put another incident under the carpet, This incident will have shocking impacts yet to be seen.!


----------



## American Pakistani

Protest: Pakistani demonstrators shout slogans against America and NATO in Lahore, Pakistan on Saturday as tensions between the two nations increased

---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------


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## American Pakistani

Let see if this is implemented or just air words.


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## American Pakistani




----------



## AKINCI

USA must be kicked out of Afghanistan like USSR. If Pakistan blocks to supply road of NATO, there will left only central asian countries to provide supply. Uzbekistan is one of the anti us governments in the region but it seems Russia supports USA to cut petrol transit between Central Asia and China.

Allah have mercy on soldiers.

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## Raja.Pakistani

Is not this old news ?


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## W.11

and even before that, didnt army denied the existing of shamsi airbase in the first place and tht drones flew from afghanistan

this army and government i can swear is making the common pakistanis fool, like they made us fool in 1971, they are also using media to fool us again and again

i pray to god this pakistan nation wakes up before its too late, if you know what i really mean

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## Bhairava

AKINCI said:


> USA must be kicked out of Afghanistan like USSR. If Pakistan blocks to supply road of NATO, there will left only central asian countries to provide supply. *Uzbekistan is one of the anti us governments in the region *but it seems Russia supports USA to cut petrol transit between Central Asia and China.
> 
> Allah have mercy on soldiers.



You are mis-informed.

All the '_stans_' in the region are willing to let NATO use their territory for transit.

 Uzbekistan Signs Transit Route Agreement

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## American Pakistani

Pakistani soldiers on patrol today close to the area near the Afghan border where a Nato helicopter killed up to 28 troops


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## Bl[i]tZ

Again, after paying our condolences to these bereaved families the people of Pakistan must ask their military leaders - 

how could NATO forces be so brazen as to violate the sovereignty of Pakistan? (I already see this question being asked again and again.)


Other important questions are -

why did NATO enter into Pakistan and not Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan or Tajikistan?

why didn't NATO forces just request Pakistan to take on these militants as NATO alleges they were conducting an op against these people?

These are equally important questions.


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## American Pakistani

Attack: Nato helicopters similar to this one opened fire on the checkpoint close to the border with Afghanistan killing 28 soilders, it was claimed.


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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> So is Pakistan prepared economically for the response that will surely follow a prolonged blockade?



it's like this, where do you draw the line? is this incident acceptable for economic flourishment reasons? would another attack even deeper inside Pak with more casualties be acceptable for the same reasons? then more and more? where do you draw the line when do you say enough is enough?

America, when it remained a British colony faced heavy taxation and injustices but drew the line and decided to liberate itself after the Boston massacre. Heavily outnumbered and outgunned it prevailed against all odds.

I'm by no means suggesting a similar method. Ours is a different situation. We dont need to go gung-ho but there has to be a stand taken. Can Pakistan withstand the economic fallout in the event of a permanent blockade? better question, is America going to go that far to ecomically squeeze Pakistan for an injust incident? Is America that morally bankrupt? if yes the do you feel comfortable doing business with and relying on such injust establishment? 

Sooner or later Pakistani nation has to answer these questions and learn to stand on it's feet.


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## El Weirdo

My first reaction was , what the hell.. 28 jawaans lost their dear life , and who will look after their poor families  
breaks my hear to see anybody die / martyr , esp. when they dont deserve it 
rip guys. may God give ur souls peace and Ur families strength 
Sad day indeed ... for any countries soldier


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## American Pakistani

Pakistan has reacted with fury to an "unprovoked and indiscriminate" attack after Nato helicopters appeared to have killed at least 28 soldiers at a Pakistani border post. 


Government officials immediately blocked Nato supplies to Afghanistan and condemned the early morning airstrike on the Afghan border as a &#8220;grave infringement&#8221; of Pakistan&#8217;ssovereignty.


Pakistan&#8217;s prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, called an emergency meeting of his cabinet&#8217;s defence committee to consider the response.


In a late-night statement the committee condemned the attack and asked the US to vacate the Shamsi air base, where the CIA is believed to base predator drones, within 15 days.


&#8220;The Government will revisit and undertake a complete review of all programmes, activities and cooperative arrangements with US/Nato/Isaf, including diplomatic, political, military and intelligence,&#8221; it added.


The incident seemed certain to inflame already tense relations with America. Nato forces in Kabul said an investigation was underway and admitted it was &#8220;highly likely&#8221; the coalition had killed the soldiers in the Baizai area of the Mohmand region.


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## Chinese-Dragon

The problem, is that the current leaders of Pakistan (Zardari) are unwilling to break off the alliance with America.

I hope that the Pakistani people will soon elect a true leader who speaks for them, and tell America to p*ss off from the region. After breaking ties with America, Pakistan can then enter into a mutual defence agreement with China, so they can concentrate on getting their economy back on track rather than having to worry about entering into a regional conflict.

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## 888jamie888

It's a shame, such an event would normally lead to war, but Pakistan is stopped by the fact that they would be destroyed. 
A very difficult situation to be in.

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## unicorn

*While Pakistan is mourning Barack Obama is enjoying the basket ball game.*






Pakistan Demands US Vacate Drone Base&#8230; Obama Goes Golfing | The Gateway Pundit

The Associated Press: President Obama just a fan at this basketball game


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## American Pakistani

[video]"http://player.ooyala.com/player.js?autoplay=1&width=560&playerBrandingId=7dfd98005dba40baacc82277f292e522&height=315&embedCode=9uYzMyMzojCzlQeZocf85Jo-EOPmIVtI&video_pcode=RvbGU6Z74XE_a3bj4QwRGByhq9h2&deepLinkEmbedCode=9uYzMyMzojCzlQeZocf85Jo-EOPmIVtI"[/video]


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## Chinese-Dragon

888jamie888 said:


> It's a shame, such an event would normally lead to war, but Pakistan is stopped by the fact that they would be destroyed.
> A very difficult situation to be in.



Wrong buddy. 

What happened when the USSR invaded Georgia in 2008? Or when North Korea sunk a South Korean battleship, and then bombarded a South Korean island? Why didn't America stand up for their allies?

The answer is nukes. America keeps huffing and puffing at North Korea but eventually they had to let North Korea get nukes, and couldn't stop them. They also warned Russia against invading Georgia (who was a close friend of the US), but Russia invaded anyway and America said nothing.

Pakistan has far more nukes than North Korea. America doesn't attack countries with nukes, we have seen this proven time and time again.

And even if we were to talk about purely "conventional" warfare, then look at what happened in Vietnam or Afghanistan. America still cannot control Afghanistan after ten years, now imagine how long it will take to bring down a regional nuclear power like Pakistan.

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## American Pakistani

Soldiers of the Pakistani militia force stand guard at the Pakistani border post of Torkham as it is closed for NATO trucks carrying supplies to neighboring Afghanistan, on Saturday, Nov 26, 2011. Pakistan on Saturday accused NATO helicopters of firing ontwo army checkpoints in the northwest and killing 25 soldiers, then retaliated by closing a key border crossing used by the coalition to supply its troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 PM ----------






Trucks carrying supplies for NATO forces in Afghanistan are parked at the Pakistan's Torkham border crossing after Pakistani authorities suspended NATO supplies on November 26, 2011. Pakistan accused NATO of killing 26 soldiers in a blistering air strike, protesting in the strongest terms to the US and closing the main border for NATO supplies into Afghanistan. It was the deadliest NATO strike reported by Pakistan during the 10-year war in Afghanistan and looked set to inflame already extremely difficultUS-Pakistani relations still reeling from the May killing of Osama bin Laden.






Pakistani security personnel stop truck carrying supplies for NATO forces in neighboring Afghanistan at Takhtabeg check post in Pakistani tribal area of Khyber, Pakistan, on their way to Torkham border post on Saturday, Nov 26, 2011. Pakistan on Saturdayaccused NATO helicopters of firing on two army checkpoints in the northwest and killing 25 soldiers, then retaliated by closing a key border crossing used by the coalition to supply its troops in neighboring Afghanistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Please let me explain: I agree with Asim that the present lack of justice, equality and freedom is a problem. I also recognize that unless those changes are implemented _inhouse _in Pakistan FIRST, these realities on the ground will continue to reign. *Unless Paksitan has those measures in place to win the respect of its own people, others will not respect it either.*
> 
> I hope I am clear in conveying the consistency in my position.


In a society largely cut off from international affairs and foreign policy, perhaps your argument might have some merit - however, given the prevalence and reach of the media in today's Pakistan, and the attention given to foreign policy and international affairs in the Pakistani media, it is not possible for a government to feign ignorance and not pay a price in its approval ratings and potentially at the ballot box come election time.

A discredited government becomes a weak government, and weak institutions then can find themselves incapable of pursuing much needed 'painful' domestic reforms, even if they wanted to. You cannot therefore, in today's Pakistan, disconnect Pakistan's foreign policy from domestic politics and its impact on domestic policies. 

So your position is not 'consistent' when you advocate in favor of 'injustice and inequality' on the international stage, while arguing that the same 'injustice and inequality' on the domestic stage perpetuates a 'negative and destructive status quo' - the same 'negative and destructive status quo' is also being perpetuated on the international stage through GoP capitulation to 'ground realities'.

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## American Pakistani

Trucks are parked at a road as authorities closed the Torkham border for NATO supply trucks at Pakistani border town of Torkham on Saturday, Nov 26, 2011. Pakistan on Saturday accused NATO helicopters of firing on two army checkpoints in the northwest andkilling 25 soldiers, then retaliated by closing a key border crossing used by the coalition to supply its troops in neighboring Afghanistan.





Afghanistan-bound NATO trucks park up at the southwest Chaman border post in Pakistan on Saturday, Nov. 26, 2011. Pakistan on Saturday accused NATO helicopters of firing on two army checkpoints in the northwest and killing 25 soldiers, then retaliated byclosing a key border crossing used by the coalition to supply its troops in neighboring Afghanistan.


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## Pakistanisage

Areesh said:


> 1 Well Yes military officers have been invokved in corruption. Admiral Mansoor ul Haq was a part of military I guess.
> 
> 2 Drones are conducted in total consensus of Pakistani military. In fact it was a military govt that allowed USA to bomb it's territory.
> 
> 3 Why not??? $$$ are more important than soldiers buddy.
> 
> 4 These are all drama they always do after every such incident. If they can't retaliate to an aggressor whether it is America or NATO then they also don't deserve all the military budget they get to protect the sovereignty of Pakistan. They don't deserve to wear that uniform.
> 
> 5 All three were involved and played their respective role.




for your kind information, admiral Mansur ul Haque was dragged back to Pakistan from the US and made to repay every dime of the bribe he took. Has Zardari been given the same treatment. Would Mr. 10% return the ill gotten wealth back to Pakistani treasury ?


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## 888jamie888

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wrong buddy.
> 
> What happened when the USSR invaded Georgia in 2008? Or when North Korea sunk a South Korean battleship, and then bombarded a South Korean island? Why didn't America stand up for their allies?
> 
> The answer is nukes. America keeps huffing and puffing at North Korea but eventually they had to let North Korea get nukes, and couldn't stop them. They also warned Russia against invading Georgia (who was a close friend of the US), but Russia invaded anyway and America said nothing.
> 
> Pakistan has far more nukes than North Korea. America doesn't attack countries with nukes, we have seen this proven time and time again.
> 
> And even if we were to talk about purely "conventional" warfare, then look at what happened in Vietnam or Afghanistan. America still cannot control Afghanistan after ten years, now imagine how long it will take to bring down a regional nuclear power like Pakistan.


I think a direct attack against the US would be quite different. They would have no problem destroying Pakistans conventional army, I think they have learnt from their mistakes. 
Surely the fact that both countries have nukes means that they would not use them due to mutual destruction? If anything does Pakistan have enough to wipe out the US?


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## President Camacho

VCheng said:


> The apology is for the loss of Pakistani personnel; that is only appropriate, but should be followed by more more steps on both sides.



Where did you hear about the apology?

Apology concludes acceptance to the mistake committed. I searched the news section but didn't find the apology part. Only heard about Muter's condolences, that he feels sorry about the loss.

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## 888jamie888

A1Kaid said:


> You stupid British bastard, Pakistan isn't going to be destroyed by NATO. Pakistan can attack and strike NATO killing NATO troops especially British troops, and there would be nothing conventional NATO could do about it. The only problem is weak traitorous government.


Ermmm, yes if you went to attack NATO I think you would be destroyed. Is that such a stupid think to say?
On the contrary, NATO has global power projection, I'm sure it could attack you.


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## Roybot

> Pakistan shut down NATO supply routes into Afghanistan - used for sending in nearly half of the alliance's land shipments - in retaliation for the worst such incident since Islamabad uneasily allied itself with Washington following the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.
> 
> *Islamabad also said it had ordered the United States to vacate a drone base in the country, but a senior U.S. official said Washington had received no such request and noted that Pakistan had made similar eviction threats in the past, without following through.*



Pakistan stops NATO supplies after deadly raid | Reuters

Americans work differently. Apparently demanding it through media is not enough. They need to be given specific orders to vacate the base.


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## 888jamie888

President Camacho said:


> Where did you hear about the apology?
> 
> Apology concludes acceptance to the mistake committed. I searched the news section but didn't find the apology part. Only heard about Muter's condolences, that he feels sorry about the loss.


Not necessarily, people say 'I'm sorry for your loss.' But further investigation is required.


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## Roybot

888jamie888 said:


> I think a direct attack against the US would be quite different. They would have no problem destroying Pakistans conventional army, I think they have learnt from their mistakes.
> Surely the fact that both countries have nukes means that they would not use them due to mutual destruction?* If anything does Pakistan have enough to wipe out the US?*



Pakistan doesn't have the means to launch a nuke attack on American mainland.


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## American Pakistani

[video]http://video.heraldsun.com.au/2171023032/NATO-accused-of-killing-Pakistani-troops[/video]


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## 888jamie888

Roybot said:


> Pakistan doesn't have the means to launch a nuke attack on American mainland.


So that backs up my point? Pakistan wouldn't be able to respond to an american attack.


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## Chinese-Dragon

888jamie888 said:


> I think a direct attack against the US would be quite different. They would have no problem destroying Pakistans conventional army, I think they have learnt from their mistakes.
> Surely the fact that both countries have nukes means that they would not use them due to mutual destruction? If anything does Pakistan have enough to wipe out the US?



If America wants to fight a nuclear-armed nation, then they would fight North Korea first. North Korea already made several lethal and repeated attacks on an American ally (South Korea), with no response from America.

North Korea also has only a few fission bombs, and no means to provide such bombs to anti-US networks who might target the American mainland.

Pakistan on the other hand, has hundreds of nuclear weapons and missiles. Not only would they use them against regional US bases, but would most certainly provide some to anti-US groups to use against the American mainland.

But the fact remains, America has never once directly attacked a nuclear-armed nation. Even the threat of one loose nuke is too much for them. They are free to prove me wrong... by finally retaliating against North Korea. I'll believe it when I see it.

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## President Camacho

888jamie888 said:


> Not necessarily, people say 'I'm sorry for your loss.' But further investigation is required.



You did not get the meaning it seems. Condolences, and apology, are entirely two different things.

Two cases:

1. You are my enemy, I kill you, and offer my heartfelt condolences to your wife. Does it mean I regret killing you? Hell no, I would think I rightly killed you and do not regret it, but I feel bad for your wife.

2. You look like my enemy but you are NOT my enemy, I kill you, and later realize my mistake. I offer my most sincere apologies and I deeply regret killing you because what I did was wrong and your death is my loss as well.

Cameron Munter's expression falls in the first scenario. And that is not an apology. An apology is offered only when you regret what you did, and you know what you did was a mistake and was wrong.

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## American Pakistani

Altaf appeals to observe 'solidarity & integrity day of Pakistan'

Updated 56 minutes ago


KARACHI: Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) Chief Altaf Hussain has strongly condemned NATO attacks on Pakistani check posts and appealed to the nation to observe 'solidarity and integrity day of Pakistan' on Monday, November 28, Geo News reported.

This he said while talking to MQM Rabitta Committee members in London and Pakistan after telephonic conversation with Interior Minister Rehman Malik late Saturday night.

Rabitta Committee members termed the NATO/US attack in Mohmand agency against integrity of the country and vowed to observe 'national solidarity'.

Altaf Hussain endorsed the decision of Rabitta Committee and directed the party workers to remove party flags from their houses, offices and other places and hoist national flag to show 'national solidarity'.

He also appealed to all political, religious parties and citizens of the country to observe 'solidarity and integrity day of Pakistan' on Monday November 28.


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## W.11

888jamie888 said:


> So that backs up my point? Pakistan wouldn't be able to respond to an american attack.



NATO did what it did today, and we can nuke guys instead, or give nukes to some jehadist in morroco, libya etc, uncle sam wont come saving you


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## khanz4996

Roybot said:


> Pakistan doesn't have the means to launch a nuke attack on American mainland.


some delivery systems are meant to b kept secret and that whats goin on


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## Chinese-Dragon

Roybot said:


> Pakistan doesn't have the means to launch a nuke attack on American mainland.



Not directly, but any nuclear nation which has a problem with the US can simply "donate" a nuke to any anti-US network. It's one of America's biggest fears actually, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't invade countries with nukes.

Also:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-...-class-submarines-china-2-type-054a-ffgs.html

These Qing-class submarines that Pakistan is acquiring, can launch nuclear-tipped cruise missiles with a range of several thousand kilometres.

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## 888jamie888

Chinese-Dragon said:


> If America wants to fight a nuclear-armed nation, then they would fight North Korea first. North Korea already made several lethal and repeated attacks on an American ally (South Korea), with no response from America.
> 
> North Korea also has only a few fission bombs, and no means to provide such bombs to anti-US networks who might target the American mainland.
> 
> Pakistan on the other hand, has hundreds of nuclear weapons and missiles. Not only would they use them against regional US bases, but would most certainly provide some to anti-US groups to use against the American mainland.
> 
> But the fact remains, America has never once directly attacked a nuclear-armed nation. Even the threat of one loose nuke is too much for them. They are free to prove me wrong... by finally retaliating against North Korea. I'll believe it when I see it.


Hmmm maybe. But has the US ever been attacked directly by a nuclear nation? I'm sure they would react then.


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## Chinese-Dragon

888jamie888 said:


> Hmmm maybe. But has the US ever been attacked directly by a nuclear nation? I'm sure they would react then.



Could be, though I doubt Pakistan will ever launch any direct attacks on the US mainland without provocation.


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## A1Kaid

Chinese-Dragon said:


> If America wants to fight a nuclear-armed nation, then they would fight North Korea first. North Korea already made several lethal and repeated attacks on an American ally (South Korea), with no response from America.
> 
> North Korea also has only a few fission bombs, and no means to provide such bombs to anti-US networks who might target the American mainland.
> 
> Pakistan on the other hand, has hundreds of nuclear weapons and missiles. Not only would they use them against regional US bases, but would most certainly provide some to anti-US groups to use against the American mainland.
> 
> But the fact remains, America has never once directly attacked a nuclear-armed nation. Even the threat of one loose nuke is too much for them. They are free to prove me wrong... by finally retaliating against North Korea. I'll believe it when I see it.




Exactly US doesn't dare attack North Korea because their Government is strong, tough, and hawkish and is nuclear armed. Pakistan is also nuclear armed but lacks the independent hawkish government.


It all comes down to Government's willingness. Pakistan is more then capable of retaliating and destroying enemy targets in AFG, it's the traitorous Government. The West knows the GoP is soft and corrupt therefore they engage in these attacks because they know they can get away with it.


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## American Pakistani

Martyred Soilder's family.






RIP all those who are martyred, Pakistan Salutes you.


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## ares

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Not directly, but any nuclear nation which has a problem with the US can simply "donate" a nuke to any anti-US network. It's one of America's biggest fears actually.
> 
> Also:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-...-class-submarines-china-2-type-054a-ffgs.html
> 
> These Qing-class submarines that Pakistan is acquiring, can launch nuclear-tipped cruise missiles with a range of several thousand kilometres.



And what do you think happens when US traces back the nuke which destroyed one of its cities to Pakistan(through nuclear forensics)? Do you think Pakistan will even have slightest chance of surviving against US.

Besides that news of qing class submarine with long range cruise missiles is fanboi fantasy..no deal has been signed, nor their has been any news on in it from govt offices.

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## Chinese-Dragon

ares said:


> And what do you think happens when US traces back the nuke which destroyed one of its cities to Pakistan(through nuclear forensics)? Do you think Pakistan will even have slightest chance of surviving against US.



Do Pakistan have a chance of surviving? Absolutely yes.

They are a nuclear-armed nation with the 6th biggest population in the world. Even if we're just talking about "conventional" capabilities, compare Pakistan to the tiny nations of Vietnam/Afghanistan who the USA spent decades on without victory.

Secondly, if there really was a nuclear crisis in the subcontinent, we all know that Pakistan is going to take down India with them.

Thirdly, most importantly... America has never once attacked a nuclear armed nation. They fear that the nukes will be lost to anti-US networks and end up back on American soil. They can prove me wrong, by finally retaliating against North Korea.

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## Omar1984

*FO summons US ambassador to lodge protest*


ISLAMABAD: On the instructions from Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir on Saturday called in US Ambassador Cameron Munter to lodge a strong protest on the unprovoked NATO/ISAF attack on Pakistan border posts in the Mohmand Agency.

The Foreign Secretary conveyed to the US Ambassador that the unprovoked attack by NATO/ISAF aircraft on border posts in which 24 Pakistani troops lost their lives and another 13 were injured, had deeply incensed the Government and the people of Pakistan, according to a press statement issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

"The President, the Prime Minister and the Government of Pakistan strongly condemn the attacks which were totally unacceptable, constituted a grave infringement of Pakistan's sovereignty, were in violation of international law and a serious transgression of the oft conveyed red lines and could have serious repercussions on Pakistan-US/NATO/ISAF cooperation", the statement said.

The Ambassador was informed that the Prime Minister had convened an emergency meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet to evaluate the situation arising from these uncalled for attacks by NATO/ISAF forces.

Strong protest have also been lodged in Washington and at the NATO Headquarters in Brussels, the statement added. (APP)


FO summons US ambassador to lodge protest


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ......................
> 
> So your position is not 'consistent' when you advocate in favor of 'injustice and inequality' on the international stage, while arguing that the same 'injustice and inequality' on the domestic stage perpetuates a 'negative and destructive status quo' - the same 'negative and destructive status quo' is also being perpetuated on the international stage through GoP capitulation to 'ground realities'.



My position is entirely consistent; you confuse that with the patent unjust and unequal realities that I accept and support consistently.

International geopolitics has always been, is, and will always be above concepts of justice and equality. However, the application of these concepts as internal social programs gives a nation the strength to pursue its interests in the international arena, and not otherwise.

In order to come out of the present situation intact, Pakistan must embark on true internal reforms that provide justice, freedom and economic opportunity, as Asim says and I agree. It must also drop its support of terrorism as state policy, and the Army must become subservient to civilian authority. However, I admit that this is a tall order indeed and may not be possible to achieve.

That is the more important war, not the one that everybody is concentrating on.


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## A1Kaid

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Could be, though I doubt Pakistan will ever launch any direct attacks on the US mainland without provocation.




There is a saying 100 Sheep led by a Lion is greater than 100 Lions led by a Sheep.


Right now Pakistan is 100 Lions led by a Sheep. Until Pakistan is led by a Lion things will not change.

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## Omar1984

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Do Pakistan have a chance of surviving? Absolutely yes.
> 
> They are a nuclear-armed nation with the 6th biggest population in the world. Even if we're just talking about "conventional" capabilities, compare Pakistan to the tiny nations of Vietnam/Afghanistan who the USA spent decades on without victory.
> 
> Secondly, if there really was a nuclear crisis in the subcontinent, we all know that Pakistan is going to take down India with them.



Thank you my friend. The enemies of Pakistan want Pakistan to take orders from the United States and NATO because they know that will destroy Pakistan and they would be happy to see that happening. They should continue dreaming.

Maybe the current Zardari government have slavery inferiority complex to these Americans/Europeans (like many other south asian people do) but not the Army and not the most popular politician in Pakistan today, Imran Khan. U.S./NATO days are numbered in the region. Maybe Pakistan wont fight NATO directly but Pakistan will most likely fight them indirectly.

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## acetophenol

Attack on regular pak troops isn't justifiable in any way. Rip to the dead. I say kick uncle sam on the butt. Take this issue to global level or somethn


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## American Pakistani




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## A1Kaid

People need to overthrow the Government.

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## Xestan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Do Pakistan have a chance of surviving? Absolutely yes.
> 
> They are a nuclear-armed nation with the 6th biggest population in the world. Even if we're just talking about "conventional" capabilities, compare Pakistan to the tiny nations of Vietnam/Afghanistan who the USA spent decades on without victory.
> 
> *Secondly, if there really was a nuclear crisis in the subcontinent, we all know that Pakistan is going to take down India with them.*
> 
> Thirdly, most importantly... America has never once attacked a nuclear armed nation. They fear that the nukes will be lost to anti-US networks and end up back on American soil. They can prove me wrong, by finally retaliating against North Korea.



Exactly, kids here don't understand that when it comes to survival of a Nation, it can go to any extent, forget Nukes for a second and just compare the NATO-US forces in Afghanistan to what Pakistan has deployed alongside the Afghan border, we have more troops than more than 30 countries present in Afghanistan, the one who thinks that US and NATO can overrun Pakistan conventionally is in a wet dream.

Ground troops enter into Pakistan and world will see how capable we are in defending our homeland.

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## AKINCI

Bhairava said:


> You are mis-informed.
> 
> All the '_stans_' in the region are willing to let NATO use their territory for transit.
> 
> Uzbekistan Signs Transit Route Agreement


It seems they play along with Russia against China. It's so understandable move already there is a big problem between China and them such as east Turkestan.


Ogannisyan said:


> Tell me Turk, why the hell is your country even in NATO in the first place, if you and your people hate America so much then get out because NATO is American run organization.


You should remind that France had left from NATO, then why did they come back again? Also there are a lot of nations who love to us such as Greeks, Armenians. If Turkey leave from NATO, do you sure that NATO countries don't make any btching in a possible Greek-Turkish war. Soviets has crashed but you are still have Russian bases in your country. Why?


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## deckingraj

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Do Pakistan have a chance of surviving? Absolutely yes.


That depends on what is your definition of survival...so share it with us...



> They are a nuclear-armed nation with the 6th biggest population in the world. Even if we're just talking about "conventional" capabilities, compare Pakistan to the tiny nations of Vietnam/Afghanistan who the USA spent decades on without victory.



Now that depends upon what is the definition of victory...How about if US actions are just punitary...who can stop those F-22's and B-52's from crippling Pakistan to its core??? 




> Secondly, if there really was a nuclear crisis in the subcontinent, we all know that Pakistan is going to take down India with them.



How about India taking down China with her??? Absurd comments don't help in healthy conversation...




> Thirdly, most importantly... America has never once attacked a nuclear armed nation. They fear that the nukes will be lost to anti-US networks and end up back on American soil. They can prove me wrong, by finally retaliating against North Korea.



Its foolish to attack Nuclear armed nations...Having said that when push comes to shove nations will go for it...Keep in mind US is blessed with geographical isolation and thus smuggling nukes is not as easy as it sounds...


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## VCheng

khanz4996 said:


> even a single missile even if fired by mistake without letting us know can unleash a wall of fire which will turn india to hell of fire and nuclear wasteland



CALM DOWN GUYS!

The more this sort of nuclear saber rattling is done, the more the international community will be determined to slowly starve the entire arsenal and the programs supporting it by economic strangulation.

Why bring this upon ourselves unnecessarily?

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## Xestan

Now this is some sensible analysis!


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## F.O.X

KarachiPunk said:


> and even before that, didnt army denied the existing of shamsi airbase in the first place and tht drones flew from afghanistan
> 
> this army and government i can swear is making the common pakistanis fool, like they made us fool in 1971, they are also using media to fool us again and again
> 
> i pray to god this pakistan nation wakes up before its too late, if you know what i really mean



OK i have had enough with you , you have been doing tan tan tan for previous 7 pages & speaking against Army for no reason that you actually understand , You have no proof yet you accuse , You have no knowledge yet you comment like you know everything .

Do you even know what has happened & what will happen ? Let me Enlighten you .

If Army attacks NATO/US they will retaliate through Air strike on populated areas on the name of anti terrorism , more & more civilians will get killed and at the end you will again come here crying that Pak Army does not think what it does , it should have thought before attacking NATO/US.

You have been accusing Army of doing nothing Yet what have you done for this country , How much Taxes you & your family has paid ? how much rules do you actually follow ? do you even follow the simple traffic rules ? 

It is so easy to sit in front of a computer & write all the BS you want , accuse whoever you want , do you even know the life of an Army soldier ? or how they fight or how much trouble they go through so patriotic gentlemen like you can accuse them ?

I will give you double the amount of what an Army soldier gets, are you willing to fight in their place ? if you are then contact me if you are not then Shutup & let the professionals do their work .

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## boris

Even though I am not against the War in Afghanistan I say it's time for the US to leave,the earlier the leave the sooner their economy gets back on track and internally there is peace and satisfaction among the people.OBL is dead,Zawahiri is getting older now ,US has accomplished it's main goals in Afghanistan and with billions in dollars of foreign investments by different countries the fear of taliban taking over is something I disagree to because these very countries wont just sit back and watch if their investment's are being destroyed by insurgents.I say again it is time for America to leave for the good of it's citizens so that the country is back on track.


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## Omar1984

A1Kaid said:


> People need to overthrow the Government.



There should be a coup. Kayani should declare martial law, and hold elections in January. I am sure after this incident Imran Khan will win and he will stop this war OF terror and stop all NATO supplies permanently.

Zaradri was guilty of memo scandal, Army knows this, that is why NATO did this to prevent a coup and turn Pakistanis against the Army. There should be temporary martial law, and then elections. Zardari is working with the enemy to weaken Pakistan army and Pakistan.


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## boris

VCheng said:


> CALM DOWN GUYS!
> 
> The more this sort of nuclear saber rattling is done, the more the international community will be determined to slowly starve the entire arsenal and the programs supporting it by economic strangulation.
> 
> Why bring this upon ourselves unnecessarily?



Smart,good analysis man!This idea of lending nukes to rogue elements/firing nukes firsthand means the whole damn world is going to go against you,would you want that to happen.It's just like Hamid Gul saying attack Pak and see World War 3


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## Xestan

VCheng said:


> CALM DOWN GUYS!
> 
> The more this sort of nuclear saber rattling is done, the more the international community will be determined to slowly starve the entire arsenal and the programs supporting it by economic strangulation.
> 
> Why bring this upon ourselves unnecessarily?



Well, to just sound like a ordiary Pakistani on Lahore's street, I would say, WE GIVE A DAMN to the International Community and its hypocrisy.

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## Omar1984

VCheng said:


> CALM DOWN GUYS!
> 
> The more this sort of nuclear saber rattling is done, the more the international community will be determined to slowly starve the entire arsenal and the programs supporting it by economic strangulation.
> 
> Why bring this upon ourselves unnecessarily?



Why dont you change your flag to both US flags. Why bend over and over to Amreekan government while they keep killing killing killing your people and your army.

Pakistanis should get rid of this slavery inferiority complex. If Americans believe 1 American life is more precious than 50 Pakistani lives then Pakistanis should believe that 1 Pakistani life is more precious than a 1000 American lives. 

This slavery mentality of some Pakistanis like you is what is destroying Pakistan.

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## Xestan

boris said:


> Smart,good analysis man!This idea of lending nukes to rogue elements/firing nukes firsthand means the whole damn world is going to go against you,would you want that to happen.*It's just like Hamid Gul saying attack Pak and see World War 3*



Trust me, he's right!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Omar1984 said:


> Why dont you change your flag to both US flags. Why bend over and over to Amreekan government while they keep killing killing killing your people and your army.
> 
> Pakistanis should get rid of this slavery inferiority complex. If Americans believe 1 American life is more precious than 50 Pakistani lives then Pakistanis should believe that 1 Pakistani life is more precious than a 1000 American lives.
> 
> This slavery mentality of some Pakistanis like you is what is destroying Pakistan.



&#8220;When we don't know who to hate, we hate ourselves.&#8221; 
&#8213; Chuck Palahniuk, Invisible Monsters

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## VCheng

Xestan said:


> Well, to just sound like a ordiary Pakistani on Lahore's street, I would say, WE GIVE A DAMN to the International Community and its hypocrisy.



I respect that opinion, but there has to be more than just not giving a damn to deal with the hypocrisy that you mention.



Omar1984 said:


> Why dont you change your flag to both US flags. Why bend over and over to Amreekan government while they keep killing killing killing your people and your army.
> 
> Pakistanis should get rid of this slavery inferiority complex. If Americans believe 1 American life is more precious than 50 Pakistani lives then Pakistanis should believe that 1 Pakistani life is more precious than a 1000 American lives.
> 
> This slavery mentality of some Pakistanis like you is what is destroying Pakistan.



All lives are equally precious, but only those that have the means to ensure their dignified survival will go on. Those means are never created nor destroyed in a day.

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------




Bhairava said:


> Unfortunately you are not going to be heard in this uber patriotic din.



This din will die down as quickly as it arises once reality hits home. My opinions need not be shouted, for they will come true on their own.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> I respect that opinion, but there has to be more than just not giving a damn to deal with the hypocrisy that you mention.
> 
> 
> 
> *All lives are equally precious*, but only those that have the means to ensure their dignified survival will go on. Those means are never created nor destroyed in a day.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> This din will die down as quickly as it arises once reality hits home. My opinions need not be shouted, for they will come true on their own.



Im sure u mean american lives... right captain america?

No matter how much you rant n be anti Pak-pro usa... u will always remain a self hater,a traitor not an american hero..
Every country has traitors... unfortunately we have a whole bunch of them.... u specially remind me of hussain haqqani.

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## Xestan

Bl[i]tZ;2329586 said:


> *The chinese scholar has come back to derail this thread.* Here are his brilliant ideas -.



Wrong, our Bharati friends first came here in the name of condolences and started their troll with stupid questions.



> 1. Pakistan should address the US aggression by proliferating nuclear weapons.



Go read again with your open eyes, it was in response to a invasion of Pakistan.



> 2. If proliferation leads to a bomb going off in an American city, Pakistan shouldn't fear US retaliation since it can survive a US retaliation.



Of course we can!



> 3. Chinese will come to save the Pakistanis right after they break off their relation with the US



They already played their role in "saving" us, helping us I would say, we're thankful to them and this is what makes us so close to each other.



> Just to burst his bubble
> 
> US took a very small time to overthrow the armies and the governments it invaded, its the administration afterwords that is difficult.



Just to burst your bubble, tell me how do you compare Pakistan's Military with that of Iraq or Afghanistan?

Forget about Military, do you know Pakistan is ranked top in the list of countries when it comes to Armed Societies, I say again, Ground invasion and world will see wonders!


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## 888jamie888

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Im sure u mean american lives... right captain america?
> 
> No matter how much you cry,rant n be anti Pak-pro usa... u will always remain a self hater,a traitor not an american hero..
> 
> Thank God you live outside my country... we had a guy like you in our college who used to brag abt usa all the time..coz he had a dual nationality.... once after getting fed up with treated him the way he deserved.... never saw tht guys.. say crap abt our country...


You sound like a wonderful person.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

888jamie888 said:


> You sound like a wonderful person.



For the people who hate my country... im the worst person...

Pakistan is my fatherland...

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## VelocuR

This year 2011 is a deadly year for Pakistan (i.e Raymond Davis, OBL raid, Mehran attack, Army Headquarters attacks, 200 terrorists crossovers, now 28+ soldier died). Enemy is making easy step by step to destroy Pakistan. 

Kiyani meet NATO counterparts to improve relations on this friday while NATO gained benefits killing us. 
Planning the


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## Omar1984

*Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths*

It is "highly likely" that Nato aircraft were behind a deadly overnight raid on a Pakistani border checkpoint, a Nato spokesman has told the BBC.

Brigadier-General Carsten Jacobson said Nato was investigating how the incident occurred and sent condolences.

Pakistan says at least 24 soldiers were killed. Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani called it "outrageous".

Pakistan retaliated by blocking Nato supply convoys, and ordering a review of co-operation with the US and Nato.

It also demanded the US vacate the remote Shamsi airbase - though it has made a similar demand before and the base may already be empty of US personnel, a BBC correspondent says.

Investigation

The night-time attack took place at the Salala checkpoint, about 1.5 miles (2.5 km) from the Afghan border, at around 02:00 local time (21:00 GMT).

Gen Jacobson said a combined force of Afghan and Nato troops were in the area when "a tactical situation developed on the ground", though he gave no more details.

He said close air support was called in, and "we're aware it's highly likely this caused casualties".

He said it was a high priority for Nato to "find out what happened".

Military sources told the BBC's Quentin Sommerville in Paktika province in Afghanistan that a US-Afghan special forces mission came under fire from a position within Pakistan. 

They received permission from the headquarters of Nato's Isaf mission to fire back at what they believed was a suspected Taliban training camp. 

The Pakistani army said in a statement that two border posts had been attacked by helicopters and fighter aircraft, killing 24 people and leaving 13 injured.

It said Pakistani troops fired back as best they could. 

Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani had strongly condemned the "blatant and unacceptable act", and demanded "strong and urgent action be taken against those responsible for this aggression", the military said.

'Sincere condolences'

*A senior Pakistani military officer told Reuters the attack came "without any reasons" and that soldiers were asleep at the time*.

Pakistani officials have told the BBC there was no militant activity in the area at the time.

In a statement, Isaf commander Gen John R Allen said the incident "has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts".

"My most sincere and personal heartfelt condolences go out to the families and loved ones of any members of Pakistan Security Forces who may have been killed or injured." 

The incident looks set to deal a fresh blow to US-Pakistan relations, which had only just begun to recover following a unilateral US raid that killed Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan in May.

Prime Minister Gilani cut short a visit to his hometown to return to Islamabad, where he called an emergency meeting of the cabinet.

A foreign ministry statement said he was taking up the matter with Nato and the US "in the strongest terms".

Following the attack, lorries and fuel tankers were being stopped at Jamrud town in the Khyber tribal region near the city of Peshawar, officials and local media said - part of a key route supplying Nato equipment to Afghanistan.

"We have halted the supplies and some 40 tankers and trucks have been returned from the check post in Jamrud," Mutahir Zeb, a senior government official, told Reuters. 

Pakistani troops are involved in fighting the Taliban in the crucial border region area. Hundreds of militants have been resisting attempts by the security forces to clear them from southern and south-eastern parts of the district.

In October, Pakistan's army chief Ashfaq Kayani warned the US against taking unilateral action in nearby North Waziristan.

Washington has for many years urged Islamabad to deal with militants in the area.



BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths


Its obvious that NATO is Pakistan's enemy and not friend. NATO is a bigger enemy of Pakistan than India.


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## Omar1984

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Im sure u mean american lives... right captain america?
> 
> No matter how much you cry,rant n be anti Pak-pro usa... u will always remain a self hater,a traitor not an american hero..
> 
> Thank God you live outside my country... we had a guy like you in our college who used to brag abt usa all the time..coz he had a dual nationality.... once after getting fed up with his usual rants... we gave him a treated that he deserved.... never saw tht guy.. say crap abt our country again..
> 
> Every country has traitors... unfortunately we have a whole bunch of them.... u specially remind me of hussain haqqani.



Notice all Indians and and other enemies of Pakistan giving him thanks. Either VCheng is an indian or a very confused self-hating slave who is not accepted by his masters (amreekans) or Pakistanis.

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## gubbi

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> For the people who hate my country... im the worst person...
> 
> Pakistan is my fatherland...



You need to learn to differentiate between constructive criticism and outright hatred. Going by your record, you've still got a lot to learn. Pakistan does not need "patriots" like you, it needs critics like Mastaan or VCheng and their likes.

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## Bl[i]tZ

Xestan said:


> Wrong, our Bharati friends first came here in the name of condolences and started their troll with stupid questions.
> 
> 
> 
> Go read again with your open eyes, it was in response to a invasion of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course we can!
> 
> 
> 
> They already played their role in "saving" us, helping us I would say, we're thankful to them and this is what makes us so close to each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to burst your bubble, tell me how do you compare Pakistan's Military with that of Iraq or Afghanistan?
> 
> Forget about Military, do you know Pakistan is ranked top in the list of countries when it comes to Armed Societies, I say again, Ground invasion and world will see wonders!



Its all about technology and not about having more men on your side. An Apache gunship only carries a group of two and see how much damage it has caused.

Lets not derail this thread into US vs Pak conventional war, you'd be disappointed and mods angry.


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## Omar1984

gubbi said:


> You need to learn to differentiate between constructive criticism and outright hatred. Going by your record, you've still got a lot to learn. Pakistan does not need "patriots" like you, it needs critics like Mastaan or VCheng and their likes.



Yea we all know how much Indians love these traitors. You can have them.

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## VCheng

gubbi said:


> Alas, the world's waiting for *this* for a long time.



Oh the door is already unlocked and open, it is only a short time till Madam Reality walks right into the living room and sits down on the sofa for the inevitable reckoning.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

888jamie888 said:


> Just because he lives in the US he's a traitor? Moronic.



No because he rants,and is always cynical of even positive news tht originates from Pakistan... and sides with america even if they r in deep shite!

Moronic word suites you guys the most!

Dont tell me tht usa bombed an PAK ARMY HQ not once but twice...2.5km inside Pakistani territory tht has been marked n known to NATO n USA... and than have the audacity to lie!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

gubbi said:


> You need to learn to differentiate between constructive criticism and outright hatred. Going by your record, you've still got a lot to learn. Pakistan does not need "patriots" like you, it needs critics like Mastaan or VCheng and their likes.



I respect Mastaan sahabs opinions... but this Vcheng aka capt america is nothing more than an american puppet.His views reek of hatred against the very nation tht gave his parent the opportunity to send him or migrate to usa.. his adopted country... Such people are known as traitors... I hope this guy never returns to Pakistan.... he should stay in america..

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## AKINCI

This backstabbing is reminded me that incident. This is not first btching of USA and if Muslims don't unite, it won't be last.

TCG Muavenet (DM 357) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

Turkish Army shot down two UN(US) Sikorsky which were supporting PKK terrorists in Northern Iraq then USA reminded us they're number one at backstabbing in the earth. I'm sure Pakistani brothers badly kicked their azzes before this incident. Maybe?

31 US troops, mostly Navy SEALs, killed in Afghanistan - World news - South and Central Asia - Afghanistan - msnbc.com

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## Omar1984

888jamie888 said:


> So now I'm an enemy of Pakistan? You mad?



NATO is an enemy of Pakistan. It is obvious from this attack on Pakistani soldiers. NATO is even a bigger enemy than India for Pakistan today.

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## W.11

forget, kin logo se mu lag raha hn


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## American Pakistani

gubbi said:


> You need to learn to differentiate between constructive criticism and outright hatred. Going by your record, you've still got a lot to learn. Pakistan does not need "patriots" like you, it needs critics like Mastaan or VCheng and their likes.



There is a difference between criticism & bashing. Yes PA needs some criticism to keep it everready but bashing is always done by sole enemies.

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## VCheng

Omar1984 said:


> NATO is an enemy of Pakistan. It is obvious from this attack on Pakistani soldiers. NATO is even a bigger enemy than India for Pakistan today.



The worst enemies of Pakistan are inside Pakistan itself, all cloaked in patriotic respectability before a gullible people.

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## President Camacho

VCheng said:


> Oh the door is already unlocked and open, it is only a short time till Madam Reality walks right into the living room and sits down on the sofa for the inevitable reckoning.



How would you know the reckoning is an inevitability? If it were, it would have been there right after Zia. I feel we could easily say the same words in 2005 and predict Madam Reality to enter and confront them by 2010. But this is 2011, times are worse than we could predict then, and the eyes are still closed.

What do you think would it take for the people to make an allowance for the bitter realities to sink in? I am asking, because I cannot imagine what more can happen beyond whatever has already taken place.


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## Chinese-Dragon

AmberDutt said:


> *That forum is too serious.. I dont get this level of entertainment there*



Show some respect. 

Many soldiers have died in this incident.

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## VCheng

President Camacho said:


> .........................
> What do you think would it take for the people to make an allowance for the bitter realities to sink in? I am asking, because I cannot imagine what more can happen beyond whatever has already taken place.



What has happened is merely an appetizer. The main dish is yet to be served, followed by several other courses. The _people _of Pakistan are not the problem; it is merely the elite cabal in power.

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## Omar1984

VCheng said:


> The worst enemies of Pakistan are inside Pakistan itself, all cloaked in patriotic respectability before a gullible people.



The worst enemies of Pakistan are those who kiss the feet of goray and bend over and think they are not worthy of anything, who are confused about their identity and are not accepted anywhere they go. They have the worst case of identity crisis and have the worst inferiority complex. They wish bad for their people and bend over for the goraiy while the goraiy spits on your face, still you think you are not worthy of their spit, so you bend over more and more.

Pakistanis are sick of people like you.

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## humanfirst

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Do Pakistan have a chance of surviving? Absolutely yes.
> 
> They are a nuclear-armed nation with the 6th biggest population in the world. Even if we're just talking about "conventional" capabilities, compare Pakistan to the tiny nations of Vietnam/Afghanistan who the USA spent decades on without victory.


As long as U.S doesn't invade and try to set up a new govt,comparison to afghanistan/vietnam is invalid.Without that,U.S can completely destroy pakistani military and industries and there will not be much pakistan can do to prevent it,unless china signs a mutual defence pact as envisioned by zardari govt,which we all know china wont.


Chinese-Dragon said:


> Secondly, if there really was a nuclear crisis in the subcontinent, we all know that Pakistan is going to take down India with them.


How did you come to that conclusion?Is it just a general norm in military science or something unequely related to pakistani mindset?



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Thirdly, most importantly... America has never once attacked a nuclear armed nation. They fear that the nukes will be lost to anti-US networks and end up back on American soil.


 
Americans ruthlessly attacking pak posts,killing soldiers and Pakistani decision not to retaliate clearly shows that it is pakistan which is worried about an open conflict,not america..And you are trying to portray a situation which is otherway round!

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## American Pakistani

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Show some respect.
> 
> Many soldiers have died in this incident.



Salute you, Sir.

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## VCheng

Omar1984 said:


> ....................
> Pakistanis are sick of people like you.



Oh the irony!

So Pakistanis are not sick of their government, their military and political and judicial leaders, their broken down social systems, their lack of economic progress, and their dismal education and abysmal health, but people like me?

Right priorities are these?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> Oh the irony!
> 
> So Pakistanis are not sick of their government, their military and political and judicial leaders, their broken down social systems, their lack of economic progress, and their dismal education and abysmal health, but people like me?
> 
> Right priorities are these?



What do you know abt our judiciary? its free... abt leaders... by now mr american you should have seen how much we like them... our military... we are proud of it and we support it! economic progress is bad coz of ur country america.. its one of the root causes of all troubles faced by Pakistan and Pakistanis!

The irony is here is you ..... isnt it ironic tht a guy rants and post cynical bs when something positive comes out frm Pakistan... while is the first one to dismiss any accusations on america...no matter how true or logical they are..... america can never be wrong right?

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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> What do you know abt our judiciary? its free... abt leaders... by now mr american you should have seen how much we like them... our military... we are proud of it and we support it! economic progress is bad coz of ur country america.. its one of the root causes of all troubles faced by Pakistan and Pakistanis!



I know more about not only the judiciary but all other branches in Pakistan than you may realize or even be willing to admit.

USA is merely the current bogeyman, just like India has been for the past decades, to keep people like you from seeing the *real *roots of all the issues that are only growing more intractable by the day.

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## Omar1984

VCheng said:


> Oh the irony!
> 
> So Pakistanis are not sick of their government, their military and political and judicial leaders, their broken down social systems, their lack of economic progress, and their dismal education and abysmal health, but people like me?
> 
> Right priorities are these?



This government is exacty the same as you, who worship the feet of those who spit at them and they think they are not worthy and they bend over and over to goraiy damaging their country and their people.

I dont need to remind you the amount of damages Pakistan has suffered because of this war OF terror. There was not a single case of suicide bombing inside Pakistan's soil before Pakistan joined in this war OF terror. There was peace in Pakistan before Pakistan joined this war OF terror. Iran is also an immediate neighbor of Afghanistan, they stayed out of this war OF terror. Is any of their troops being killed? Is their economy hurt even after US sanctions. Why get yourself involve and make sacrafices for something that is not in your interest.

Afghan Taliban were Pakistan's friends. Pakistan had its best relations with Afghanistan under the leadership of Afghan Taliban. Pakistan had the most influence in Afghanistan under the leadership of Afghan Taliban.

Kissing the feets of goraiy has done more damage to Pakistan than any other time in Pakistan's history. These goraiy are more dangerous than indians, they smile to your face when you're awake then stab you when you're asleep.

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## Omar1984

VCheng said:


> I know more about not only the judiciary but all other branches in Pakistan than you may realize or even be willing to admit.
> 
> USA is merely the current bogeyman, just like India has been for the past decades, to keep people like you from seeing the *real *roots of all the issues that are only growing more intractable by the day.




Are you denying that NATO troops invaded Pakistani territory and killed Pakistani troops. Even NATO had admitted this.

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## VCheng

Omar1984 said:


> ................... Why get yourself involve and make sacrafices for something that is not in your interest.
> 
> ......................



Well then, why did Pakistan join the WoT, and what is stopping it from leaving it?

Go ahead, please explain that one to me.

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------




Omar1984 said:


> Are you denying that NATO troops invaded Pakistani territory and killed Pakistani troops. Even NATO had admitted this.
> ..........................



I am waiting for the full investigation to be completed, that is all.


----------



## F.O.X

KarachiPunk said:


> forget, kin logo se mu lag raha hn



This happens when you speak nonsense & have nothing to back it up with , now get lost .


----------



## American Pakistani

AmberDutt said:


> Why do you refer to her with a WAS ??



cuz i think she is no longer here.

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 PM ----------

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> Well then, why did Pakistan join the WoT, and what is stopping it from leaving it?
> 
> Go ahead, please explain that one to me.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *I am waiting for the full investigation to be completed, that is all*.



The hq was attacked twice... its 2.5km inside Pak territory... it has a Pakistani flag n Pa army soldiers in uniform on guard... its location is marked on NATO mission computers or GPRS... the troops didnt provoke them... isnt it bloody clear? or r u waiting for ur countrys statement which would be a lie!

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## VelocuR

Omar1984 said:


> This government is exacty the same as you, who worship the feet of those who spit at them and they think they are not worthy and they bend over and over to goraiy damaging their country and their people.
> 
> I dont need to remind you the amount of damages Pakistan has suffered because of this war OF terror. There was not a single case of suicide bombing inside Pakistan's soil before Pakistan joined in this war OF terror. There was peace in Pakistan before Pakistan joined this war OF terror. Iran is also an immediate neighbor of Afghanistan, they stayed out of this war OF terror. Is any of their troops being killed? Is their economy hurt even after US sanctions. Why get yourself involve and make sacrafices for something that is not in your interest.
> 
> Afghan Taliban were Pakistan's friends. Pakistan had its best relations with Afghanistan under the leadership of Afghan Taliban. Pakistan had the most influence in Afghanistan under the leadership of Afghan Taliban.
> 
> Kissing the feets of goraiy has done more damage to Pakistan than any other time in Pakistan's history. These goraiy are more dangerous than indians, they smile to your face when you're awake then stab you when you're asleep.



You missed the point, Who invite this troublemaker (America)? It is Pakistan who willing to be involved in WOT and willing to do dirty works for US after 9/11. Pakistan already decided to do something important for US instead its own people desires. 

Again, it is Pakistan choose troublemaker to screw up our country. It is Pakistan leadership who choose to quiet and sit and military chief enjoy meal dinners. 

Yeah, we face serious consequences by our decision, we make ourselves enemies within Afghans, Talibans, other groups more lists. 



> So *Pakistanis are not sick of their government, their military and political and judicial leaders, their broken down social systems, their lack of economic progress, and their dismal education and abysmal health*, but people like me?
> 
> Right priorities are these?



This is true you are right, that's what I demand to change it.


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## President Camacho

VCheng said:


> What has happened is merely an appetizer. The main dish is yet to be served, followed by several other courses. The _people _of Pakistan are not the problem; it is merely the elite cabal in power.



VCheng, people always serve as tools for the elites. Some times reluctantly, some times willingly. 

As far as the reality is concerned, I tend to think that the elites are already aware of the realities. In Pakistan's case, it is the people who appear so willing to be the tools for the elites.

I personally think Pakistanis are smart, intelligent people. That gullibility excuse... doesn't work that well.


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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> .............. isnt it bloody clear? .....................



No, it is not clear at all; the investigation has representatives from both sides. Let us wait for them to complete their work.


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## AmberDutt

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The hq was attacked twice... its 2.5km inside Pak territory... it has a Pakistani flag n Pa army soldiers in uniform on guard... its location is marked on NATO mission computers or GPRS... *the troops didnt provoke them*... isnt it bloody clear? or r u waiting for ur countrys statement which would be a lie!



The bold part is the only thing not proven yet...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> Well, since I am an expat, my selfishness, betrayal and corruption has no bearing.
> 
> Why don't you worry about the traitors and corrupt people inside Pakistan for a change?
> 
> It might be more helpful.
> 
> Just a thought.



If you had noticed ... we are all against the snakes looting the country be it ghaddari inc or our fake ghairat brigade... but wat hurts us more is a so called Pakistani expat who claims he loves Pakistan as much as he loves USA..< (what an oxymoron) and is cynical and hateful !

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## American Pakistani

Nato to &#8216;thoroughly investigate&#8217; border incident
Attack open aggression: Firdous


Kabul&#8212;The US commander in Afghanistan on Saturday promised a full investigation after Pakistan said a Nato air strike killed over 23 soldiers, sending his condolences over any troops who may have died.

&#8220;This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts,&#8221; said General John Allen, commander of Nato&#8217;s International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).

&#8220;My most sincere and personal heartfelt condolences go out to the families and loved ones of any members of Pakistan security forces who may have been killed or injured,&#8221; he added in a statement.

In the six months since US commandos killed Osama bin Laden near the Pakistani capital Islamabad without prior warning, Pakistani, US and Afghan officials have traded increasing complaints about cross-border attacks.

ISAF said Saturday it remained &#8220;committed to improving security relations&#8221; with Pakistan, including the coordination of operations along the border &#8211; in many places unmarked &#8211; &#8220;in our united fight against terrorism&#8221;.

Pakistan has frequently accused Nato of violating its airspace in pursuits of Taliban militants, but never before over such a deadly strike.

The last crisis occurred in September 2010 when Pakistan shut the main land route for Nato supplies at Torkham for 11 days after accusing Nato of killing three Pakistani troops in another attack in its northwest.

The border was reopened after the United States formally apologised. &#8212;AP 







US apologizes to Pakistan



Islamabad&#8212;The United States of America on Saturday apologizes Pakistan over NATO attack on a check post and announced for a joint investigation regarding the attack.

US Ambassador Cameron Munter&#8217;s apology statement has been issued here.

In the statement he said that he heard about the attack from media and is sorry to know about loss of lives in the attack. Munter said the US and Pakistan will jointly investigate the issue. &#8220;I have seen press accounts of an incident on the Pakistani-Afghan border in which Pakistani soldiers were reportedly killed. I regret the loss of life of any Pakistani servicemen, and pledge that the United States will work closely with Pakistan to investigate this incident,&#8221; the statement said. &#8212;NNI







Attack open aggression: Firdous 



Salim Ahmed



Lahore&#8212;Information Minister Dr. Firdous Ashiq Awan Saturday condemned the NATO attack on its soil and security forces and said there will be no compromise on national sovereignty. &#8220;The government will raise the attack on Salala check post by NATO helicopters at all international Fora,&#8221; she said while talking to reporters here Saturday.

Dr Firdous said aggression on security forces and law enforcing agencies is aggression on Pakistan. She regretted that such incidents occur at a time whenever there is a progress towards peace in the region. She, however, pledged that Pakistan would continue its active role in bringing peace and security to Afghanistan through its three-d policy of development&#8218; dialogue and deterrence. 

Dr Firdous Ashiq Awan said that NATO aggression on two Pakistani Army border posts, was a direct assault on the sovereignty of the country. She said Armed Forces were not only the defenders of national geographical boundaries but also &#8220;constitutional&#8221; borders. She said the people were struggling against the mindset of extremism which was trying to 

create instability in the country, and added education was the only solution to this problem. The sovereignty of the country was the top priority of government, she said and added no government could tolerate any attack its territories. &#8220;We are working with our coalition partners for the implementation of resolutions of Parliament on terrorism,&#8221; she said.

The Information Minister said whenever the government took the initiative to separate Taliban from locals, an assault on the nation turned the sympathy of locals towards the Taliban, adding that such attacks were not in favour of the war on terrorism.

She said the government was endeavouring to resolve the issue of terrorism with the help of the United Nation, backdoor diplomacy and dialogue, and added the process of peace could only be successful by implementation of the 3D (Dialogue, Development and Deterrence) policy of Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani.

To a question, Dr Firdous ruled out any understanding on the NATO assault and assured the nation that such incidents would never be tolerated. She said that whenever the peace process was launched, such incidents happened which hampered the process.

She said, &#8220;Pakistan is playing its role in peace in Afghanistan. We are also trying to ensure the integrity of Pakistan with the support of the government, people and the media.&#8221;

To another question, she said US taxpayers were investing in Pakistan for elimination of illiteracy, poverty and ignorance in society and added that it was not necessary for the government to agree to all policies of any other nation.

About the programme of Rafi Peer Theatre for child education, she said it was a people-to-people contact, not a government-to-government intitative.

To a question on the implementation of the NRO verdict, the Minister said the government had not yet received detailed judgement and it would be implemented according to the Constitution.

Moreover, the Information Minister also joined the nurses holding protest outside press club for the acceptance of their demands


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## VCheng

President Camacho said:


> VCheng, people always serve as tools for the elites. Some times reluctantly, some times willingly.
> 
> As far as the reality is concerned, I tend to think that the elites are already aware of the realities. In Pakistan's case, it is the people who appear so willing to be the tools for the elites.
> 
> I personally think Pakistanis are smart, intelligent people. That gullibility excuse... doesn't work that well.



I think the majority of Pakistanis are blinded by their indoctrination, and hence are more gullible than anything else. Once their leadership is changed, by force likely, it is only then that they will begin to see.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

AmberDutt said:


> The bold part is the only thing not proven yet...



No trust me its clear... its crystal clear... and my info came frm the HQ where it happened... 77th brigade... this is the same brigade tht had lost 79 men including 14 officers in 4 months fighting taliban and flushing them out of the area... and NATO abandoning their out posts on the afghan side!

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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> If you had noticed ... we are all against the snakes looting the country be it ghaddari inc or our fake ghairat brigade... but wat hurts us more is a so called Pakistani expat who claims he loves Pakistan as much as he loves USA..< (what an oxymoron) and is cynical and hateful !



How could an expat hurt you more than all the snakes you have living inside your own home? That simply does not make sense.


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## fd24

Omar1984 said:


> The worst enemies of Pakistan are those who kiss the feet of goray and bend over and think they are not worthy of anything, who are confused about their identity and are not accepted anywhere they go. They have the worst case of identity crisis and have the worst inferiority complex. They wish bad for their people and bend over for the goraiy while the goraiy spits on your face, still you think you are not worthy of their spit, so you bend over more and more.
> 
> Pakistanis are sick of people like you.



Hi Omar - I have been away on business for a couple of days. Heard the terrible news of the sad sad loss of these soldiers. My heart goes out to the lost ones and of course the families too. What i am disappointed but not surprised is the lack of respect some moronic morons have in even threads like this. They should be thoroughly disgusted with themselves and their families should disown what they are. In certain moments like this if people are unable to feel the sadness or the passions in your heart for moments like this they should stop pretending to have any emotions and feelings for their nation of origin. Is it any wonder people like solomon2 look apon him as a friend? Is it any wonder all Pakistanis are disliking his behavior. I would request MastanKhan to revoke his title as an opinionator as i would be thoroughly ashamed to be in the same bracket as him.

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## VelocuR

> US apologizes to Pakistan
> 
> Islamabad&#8212;The United States of America on Saturday apologizes Pakistan over NATO attack on a check post and announced for a joint investigation regarding the attack.
> 
> US Ambassador Cameron Munter&#8217;s apology statement has been issued here.
> 
> In the statement he said that he heard about the attack from media and is sorry to know about loss of lives in the attack. Munter said the US and Pakistan will jointly investigate the issue. &#8220;I have seen press accounts of an incident on the Pakistani-Afghan border in which Pakistani soldiers were reportedly killed. I regret the loss of life of any Pakistani servicemen, and pledge that the United States will work closely with Pakistan to investigate this incident,&#8221; the statement said. &#8212;NNI



This is stupid cheap apology by the Cameron Munter, where is Obama? 


What I want Pakistan is *to shoot down 30 NATO helicopter equally immediately. * That's it.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> How could an expat hurt you more than all the snakes you have living inside your own home? That simply does not make sense.



You are no expat.. ur an american.. do us a favour and change our sabz hilali frm tht profile of urs... ur disrespecting it!....Infact to be honest... ur a disgrace!

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## VCheng

RaptorRX707 said:


> ..........................
> 
> What I want Pakistan is *to shoot down 30 NATO helicopter equally immediately. * That's it.



Firstly, how, and secondly and more importantly, would you be ready for the response, should what you want actually happen?


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## Bhairava

RaptorRX707 said:


> What I want Pakistan is *to shoot down 30 NATO helicopter equally immediately. * That's it.



You think that is realistic ?


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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> Hi Omar - I have been away on business for a couple of days. Heard the terrible news of the sad sad loss of these soldiers. My heart goes out to the lost ones and of course the families too. What i am disappointed but not surprised is the lack of respect some moronic morons have in even threads like this. They should be thoroughly disgusted with themselves and their families should disown what they are. In certain moments like this if people are unable to feel the sadness or the passions in your heart for moments like this they should stop pretending to have any emotions and feelings for their nation of origin. Is it any wonder people like solomon2 look apon him as a friend? Is it any wonder all Pakistanis are disliking his behavior. I would request MastanKhan to revoke his title as an opinionator as i would be thoroughly ashamed to be in the same bracket as him.



I have already, and quite appropriately, expressed my sorrow at the loss of the soldiers. I salute them.


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## VelocuR

VCheng said:


> Firstly, how, and secondly and more importantly, would you be ready for the response, should what you want actually happen?



Yeah sure, we would definitely to response any means, no need to be fear. US/NATO continue to piss off Russia, China, Pakistan, others. 

28 martyrs is acceptables ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> I have already, and quite appropriately, expressed my sorrow at the loss of the soldiers. I salute them.



Thank you very much... but they dnt need a salute frm a traitor... 180 million people salute them and honour them!

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## VCheng

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yeah sure, we would definitely to response any means, no need to be fear. US/NATO continue to piss off Russia, China, Pakistan, others.
> 
> 28 martyrs is acceptables ?



The 28 martyrs are NOT acceptable for sure.

The rest of what you say is simply naive.

---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> ............... 180 million people salute them and honour them!




...... as they should!


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## American Pakistani

A police officer guarded trucks, some containing NATO supplies, after Pakistan closed the Chaman border crossing on Saturday.

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## fd24

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> You are no expat.. ur an american.. do us a favour and change our sabz hilali frm tht profile of urs... ur disrespecting it!....Infact to be honest... ur a disgrace!



PN - I know of people like this they become more American than Americans. The fact that he is fully aware at the sensitivity of this thread and is still able to be so cold and oblivious to the emotions and feelings we all have with this thread. Ashamed - yes indeed thats something he is. Embarassment - yes indeed thats something he is. Disgrace? - In my opinion yes thats something he must feel he is - just my opinion - I will let you guys decide for yourselves how this attention seeking chap should be treated.

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## American Pakistani

*Tensions Flare Between U.S. and Pakistan After Strike*


By SALMAN MASOOD and ERIC SCHMITT

Published: November 26, 2011


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan &#8212; Pakistani officials said on Saturday that NATO aircraft had killed at least 25 soldiers in strikes against two military posts at the northwestern border with Afghanistan, and the country&#8217;s supreme army commander called them unprovoked acts of aggression in a new flash point between the United States and Pakistan. 

The Pakistani government responded by ordering the Central Intelligence Agency to vacate the drone operations it runs from Shamsi Air Base, in western Pakistan, within 15 days. It also closed the two main NATO supply routes into Afghanistan, including the one at Torkham. NATO forces receive roughly 40 percent of their supplies through that crossing, which runs through the Khyber Pass, and Pakistan gave no estimate for how long the routes might be shut down. 

In Washington, American officials were scrambling to assess what had happened amid preliminary reports that allied forces in Afghanistan engaged in a firefight along the border with insurgents and called in airstrikes. Senior Obama administration officials were also weighing the implications on a relationship that took a sharp turn for the worse after a Navy Seal commando raid killed Osama bin Laden near Islamabad in May, and that has deteriorated since then. 

&#8220;Senior U.S. civilian and military officials have been in touch with their Pakistani counterparts from Islamabad, Kabul and Washington to express our condolences, our desire to work together to determine what took place and our commitment to the U.S.-Pakistan partnership, which advances our shared interests, including fighting terrorism in the region,&#8221; said Caitlin Hayden, a spokeswoman for the National Security Council. 

In a sign that the White House was trying to keep the situation from growing worse, President Obama was updated regularly throughout the day by Thomas E. Donilon, the national security adviser, Ms. Hayden said. 

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton; Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; and Gen. John R. Allen, the commander of the NATO-led forces in Afghanistan, all talked to their Pakistani counterparts to offer condolences and to promise an investigation, administration officials said. 

Mrs. Clinton and Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta issued a joint statement late Saturday endorsing the investigation and offering their &#8220;deepest condolences&#8221; to Pakistan. 

General Allen, in a separate statement, said, &#8220;This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts.&#8221; 

The strikes, which Pakistani officials said involved both helicopters and fighter jets, took place overnight at two military posts in Salala, a village in Pakistan&#8217;s Mohmand tribal region near the border with Kunar Province in Afghanistan. At least 40 soldiers were deployed at the posts, Pakistani military officials said, adding that NATO aircraft had penetrated roughly a mile and a half into Pakistan to make the strikes. 

What remained unclear on Saturday, and what will be a main focus of NATO&#8217;s inquiry, was what exactly prompted the airstrikes and whether they were unprovoked or resulted from a communications mishap. A NATO spokesman, Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, offered details suggesting that allied and Afghan troops operating near the border came under fire from unknown enemies and summoned coalition warplanes for help. 

&#8220;In the early night hours of this morning, a force consisting of Afghan forces and coalition forces, in the eastern border area where the Durand Line is not always 100 percent clear, got involved in a firefight,&#8221; General Jacobson said, according to a transcript of his statements on NATO TV that the alliance provided American officials on Saturday. (The Durand Line is the colonial-era boundary between Pakistan and Afghanistan.) 

&#8220;Air force was called in into this activity,&#8221; he said, &#8220;and we have to look into this situation of what actually happened on the ground.&#8221; 

But several American and allied military, diplomatic and intelligence officials contacted on Saturday said it was unclear what threat, real or perceived, led to the airstrikes or why the allied aircraft fired on the Pakistani troops. &#8220;It&#8217;s real murky right now,&#8221; one senior American official said. &#8220;Clearly, something went very wrong.&#8221; 

Such cross-border attacks have been at the heart of an increasingly hostile relationship between Pakistani and American officials. The United States has demanded that Pakistan do more to stop militants based in its territory, particularly from the feared Haqqani network and Al Qaeda, from crossing into Afghanistan to attack American forces. And United States forces in eastern Afghanistan say they have taken more mortar and rocket fire from positions at or near active Pakistani military posts in recent months, despite complaints to Pakistan about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/w...nato-helicopters-kill-dozens-of-soldiers.html


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

someone is saying the troops might have provoked the nato forces, pak troops were well inside our borders and nato had no right to come inside our borders

lanat uss baighariti per

TARIQ

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## Omar1984

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> someone is saying the troops might have provoked the nato forces, pak troops were well inside our borders and nato had no right to come inside our borders
> 
> lanat uss baighariti per
> 
> TARIQ



According to Pakistani officials, the Pakistani troops were sleeping when NATO attacked them.

NATO is the biggest enemy of Pakistan. Forget about India not even India has ever did this to Pakistan.


And its highly likely they did this to send anti-pakistan elements across the border into Pakistan. NATO cant stand to see any peace in Pakistan so they send suicide bombers into Pakistan.

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## VelocuR

Bhairava said:


> Where did Russia,China come into the equation and who are the 'others' ?
> 
> In a fight with US no one will come to your aid. Make no mistake about it.



I agree, no country would rescue Pakistan. What I am saying, US is not just focus only on Pakistan but also Russia and China South Sea. US can't afford attack Pakistan in open war. Please my dear Indian friend, thank you for your advices. I suggest you to dance now for the death of martyrs. 



VCheng said:


> The 28 martyrs are NOT acceptable for sure.
> 
> The rest of what you say is simply naive.




NATO supply closed? Is that easy? I don't like this plain idea and boring. 

Something more means to scare them. 30 helicopters must shot down, how much cost for these helicopters, curious?


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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> PN - I know of people like this they become more American than Americans. The fact that he is fully aware at the sensitivity of this thread and is still able to be so cold and oblivious to the emotions and feelings we all have with this thread. Ashamed - yes indeed thats something he is. Embarassment - yes indeed thats something he is. Disgrace? - In my opinion yes thats something he must feel he is - just my opinion - I will let you guys decide for yourselves how this attention seeking chap should be treated.



Being emotional to the point of losing logic and sanity is detrimental to the cause, hence my grip on being level headed is important here.

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## American Pakistani

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> someone is saying the troops might have provoked the nato forces, pak troops were well inside our borders and nato had no right to come inside our borders
> 
> lanat uss baighariti per
> 
> TARIQ



Yea i think any helicopter or plane that is atleast 4-6KM away from any sovereign country has to report to that country, why did NATO helis didn't report.

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## Omar1984

American Pakistani said:


> Yea i think any helicopter or plane that is atleast 4-6KM away from any sovereign country has to report to that country, why did NATO helis didn't report.



Why would the enemy report. Please dont be so gullible and realize who is the enemy.


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## Omar1984

superkaif said:


> Hi Omar - I have been away on business for a couple of days. Heard the terrible news of the sad sad loss of these soldiers. My heart goes out to the lost ones and of course the families too. What i am disappointed but not surprised is the lack of respect some moronic morons have in even threads like this. They should be thoroughly disgusted with themselves and their families should disown what they are. In certain moments like this if people are unable to feel the sadness or the passions in your heart for moments like this they should stop pretending to have any emotions and feelings for their nation of origin. Is it any wonder people like solomon2 look apon him as a friend? Is it any wonder all Pakistanis are disliking his behavior. I would request MastanKhan to revoke his title as an opinionator as i would be thoroughly ashamed to be in the same bracket as him.



I agree. These inferior slaves are just as an enemy as those people who killed the innocent soldiers.

---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------




superkaif said:


> PN - I know of people like this they become more American than Americans. The fact that he is fully aware at the sensitivity of this thread and is still able to be so cold and oblivious to the emotions and feelings we all have with this thread. Ashamed - yes indeed thats something he is. Embarassment - yes indeed thats something he is. Disgrace? - In my opinion yes thats something he must feel he is - just my opinion - I will let you guys decide for yourselves how this attention seeking chap should be treated.



And you know the funny part. Americans dont even accept them as their own no matter how much they bend over. They are such losers. I feel pity for them, identityless slaves with severe inferiority complex.

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## Roybot

There is obviously more to this incident, Pakistan Army and Government isn't divulging all the details to its public. 

As I already mentioned earlier, as per the ISAF press release, their base in Dand Patan, Paktia province was under mortar fire. They called in the air support to take care of the mortar fire, which resulted in this attack on Pakistan base(knowingly or accidentally.)

The distance between Dand Patan and Mohamand Agency where the attack took place, is atleast 175 Km! Now no mortar in the world has that sorta range. Not even rockets like Smerch!

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## Bilsher007

Developereo said:


> Seal the supply routes permanently. Not 1 week, not 1 month, but PERMANENTLY.
> 
> The other supply routes are fraught with their own 'costs'. The only way America can continue its Afghan operations will be by giving massive concessions to Russia and Medvedev will demand his pound of flesh. The Russians will play hardball -- especially with the missile shield drama in Eastern Europe -- and the Chinese are more than eager to pay back for America's Pacific shenanigans.
> 
> *Let this incident go down in history as the beginning of the chain that resulted in NATO's ignominious retreat from Afghanistan.* That will be the best revenge for the deaths of these martyrs.


 

Asalaam alikum wr wb;

Perfect response...exactly my thought. All supply routes must be permanently closed. And 25 martyred Pak soldiers blood must be compensated equally, blood for blood !

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## Developereo

Bilsher007 said:


> Asalaam alikum wr wb;
> 
> Perfect response...exactly my thought. All supply routes must be permanently closed. And 25 martyred Pak soldiers blood must be compensated equally, blood for blood !



Please note, I am NOT asking for a military response. I am specifically advocating a civil disobedience movement to block the routes PERMANENTLY regardless of what the Pak army, government or anyone else does.

The time for explanations, investigations and apologies has passed. We KNOW the NATO aircraft were 2.5 km inside Pak airspace. That's all the 'explanation' we need.

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## VCheng

Developereo said:


> Please note, I am NOT asking for a military response. I am specifically advocating a civil disobedience movement to block the routes PERMANENTLY regardless of what the Pak army, government or anyone else does.
> 
> The time for explanations, investigations and apologies has passed. We KNOW the NATO aircraft were 2.5 km inside Pak airspace. That's all the 'explanation' we need.



Has not IK already tried the blockage via _"dharnas"_? How successful were they? Why would it be any different now?


----------



## American Pakistani

Pakistan has ordered a review of all co-operation with the US and Nato after the alliance struck a Pakistani army checkpoint, killing at least 24 people.

A committee chaired by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani also decided to cut supply lines to Nato in Afghanistan.

A Nato spokesman admitted it was "highly likely" that Nato aircraft were behind the strike at the Afghan border.

The US has stressed the importance of its relationship and said it fully backed Nato's plan to investigate.

Nato's Brig Gen Carsten Jacobson sent condolences to Pakistan and said the alliance was investigating how the incident occurred.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 PM ----------

*US Vows Full Probe Into Pakistan Border Incident*

By ANDREW MIGA Associated Press 

WASHINGTON November 27, 2011 (AP)







The Obama administration on Saturday pledged a full investigation into a NATO attack that allegedly killed 24 Pakistani troops.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in a joint statement offered their "deepest condolences" for the loss of life in the cross-border incident in Pakistan. Clinton and Panetta also said they "support fully NATO's intention to investigate immediately."

Secretary Clinton, Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Gen. John Allen, commander of the NATO-led coalition forces in Afghanistan, each called their Pakistani counterparts as well, the statement said.

U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter also met with Pakistani government officials in Islamabad.

"In their contacts, these US diplomatic and military leaders each stressed -- in addition to their sympathies and a commitment to review the circumstances of the incident -- the importance of the US-Pakistani partnership, which serves the mutual interests of our people," the statement said.




"All these leaders pledged to remain in close contact with their Pakistani counterparts going forward as we work through this challenging time," the statement concluded.

The incident was a major blow to American efforts to rebuild an already tattered alliance vital to winding down the 10-year-old Afghan war. It was the latest in a series of setbacks to the alliance, often caused by border incidents.

Islamabad called the bloodshed in one of its tribal areas a "grave infringement" of the country's sovereignty.

If confirmed, it would be the deadliest friendly fire incident by NATO against Pakistani troops since the Afghan war began a decade ago.

A NATO spokesman said it was likely that coalition airstrikes caused Pakistani casualties, but an investigation was being conducted to determine the details.

The relationship between Pakistan and the U.S. has severely deteriorated over the last year, especially following the covert American raid that killed Osama bin Laden in a Pakistani garrison town in May. Islamabad was outraged it wasn't told about the operation beforehand.

The border issue is a major source of tension between Islamabad and Washington, which is committed to withdrawing its combat troops from Afghanistan by the end of 2014.

Much of the violence in Afghanistan is carried out by insurgents who are based just across the border in Pakistan. Coalition forces are not allowed to cross the frontier to attack the militants. However, the militants sometimes fire artillery and rockets across the line, reportedly from locations close to Pakistani army posts.

US Vows Full Probe Into Pakistan Border Incident - ABC News


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## Developereo

VCheng said:


> Has not IK already tried the blockage via _"dharnas"_? How successful were they? Why would it be any different now?



Those were temporary blockages; I am suggesting a permanent blockade. No more NATO supplies. Period.

The politicians will do whatever's on the back of their checks; the military will be under pressure to de-escalate the situation. That is why this blockade must be a civil disobedience movement regardless of the Pak establishment -- in defiance if necessary.

Let NATO find its way by giving concessions to Russia and complicating its Eastern European relations. Let the US administration earn their pay for once.

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## VelocuR

*History of NATO violation on Pakisan airspace*

The helicopters of the North American Treaty Organisation (NATO) have violated Pakistan's airspace on several occasions, some of which were fatal for Pakistan's troops.

*Last month,* two helicopters intruded several kilometres inside Pakistan territory in Datta Khel town at about 2:00 am.

Pakistani troops and 'Coalition' helicopters exchanged fire along the Afghan-Pakistani border, resulting in injuries to two Pakistani troops.

*On November 3, 2010,* Nato helicopters violated Pakistan's airspace near the Pak-Afghan border in the areas of Burkha and Kharlacha of the Kurram Agency.

The gunship helicopters came 600 metres inside Pakistan border and, after flying in the area for 10 minutes, retreated towards Afghanistan.

*On September 30, 2010,* Nato helicopters violated Pakistan's airspace and attacked twice in Kurram Agency, killing three security personnel and injuring three others.

*On December 27, 2010,* two Nato helicopters violated Pakistan's airspace by entering the Landi Kotal area of Khyber Agency bordering Afghanistan.

*Earlier, on July 26, 2009,* Nato gunship helicopters violated Pakistan's airspace by intruding into Landi Kotal area near Pak-Afghan boarder.

The helicopters went back after flying in Pakistan's airspace for some time.

*July 23, 2008,* two Nato aircraft intruded into Pakistani territory in North Waziristan, In September 2008, Nato helicopters violated Pak-Afghan border.

*Pakistani government did not retaliate properly, due to which NATO troops freely enter into Pakistan territory when they want and attack troops, sometimes resulting in casualties.*

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## VCheng

Developereo said:


> Those were temporary blockages; I am suggesting a permanent blockade. No more NATO supplies. Period.
> 
> The politicians will do whatever's on the back of their checks; the military will be under pressure to de-escalate the situation. That is why this blockade must be a civil disobedience movement regardless of the Pak establishment -- in defiance if necessary.
> 
> Let NATO find its way by giving concessions to Russia and complicating its Eastern European relations. Let the US administration earn their pay for once.



I think that the civil dis-obedience movement to permanently block the supply routes such as that you mention will be a failure.


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## Al Bhatti

American Pakistani said:


> *Tensions Flare Between U.S. and Pakistan After Strike*
> 
> 
> By SALMAN MASOOD and ERIC SCHMITT
> 
> Published: November 26, 2011
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD, Pakistan &#8212; Pakistani officials said on Saturday that NATO aircraft had killed at least 25 soldiers in strikes against two military posts at the northwestern border with Afghanistan, and the country&#8217;s supreme army commander called them unprovoked acts of aggression in a new flash point between the United States and Pakistan.
> 
> The Pakistani government responded by ordering the Central Intelligence Agency to vacate the drone operations it runs from Shamsi Air Base, in western Pakistan, within 15 days. It also closed the two main NATO supply routes into Afghanistan, including the one at Torkham. NATO forces receive roughly 40 percent of their supplies through that crossing, which runs through the Khyber Pass, and Pakistan gave no estimate for how long the routes might be shut down.
> 
> In Washington, American officials were scrambling to assess what had happened amid preliminary reports that allied forces in Afghanistan engaged in a firefight along the border with insurgents and called in airstrikes. Senior Obama administration officials were also weighing the implications on a relationship that took a sharp turn for the worse after a Navy Seal commando raid killed Osama bin Laden near Islamabad in May, and that has deteriorated since then.
> 
> &#8220;Senior U.S. civilian and military officials have been in touch with their Pakistani counterparts from Islamabad, Kabul and Washington to express our condolences, our desire to work together to determine what took place and our commitment to the U.S.-Pakistan partnership, which advances our shared interests, including fighting terrorism in the region,&#8221; said Caitlin Hayden, a spokeswoman for the National Security Council.
> 
> In a sign that the White House was trying to keep the situation from growing worse, President Obama was updated regularly throughout the day by Thomas E. Donilon, the national security adviser, Ms. Hayden said.
> 
> Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton; Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; and Gen. John R. Allen, the commander of the NATO-led forces in Afghanistan, all talked to their Pakistani counterparts to offer condolences and to promise an investigation, administration officials said.
> 
> Mrs. Clinton and Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta issued a joint statement late Saturday endorsing the investigation and offering their &#8220;deepest condolences&#8221; to Pakistan.
> 
> General Allen, in a separate statement, said, &#8220;This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts.&#8221;
> 
> The strikes, which Pakistani officials said involved both helicopters and fighter jets, took place overnight at two military posts in Salala, a village in Pakistan&#8217;s Mohmand tribal region near the border with Kunar Province in Afghanistan. At least 40 soldiers were deployed at the posts, Pakistani military officials said, adding that NATO aircraft had penetrated roughly a mile and a half into Pakistan to make the strikes.
> 
> What remained unclear on Saturday, and what will be a main focus of NATO&#8217;s inquiry, was what exactly prompted the airstrikes and whether they were unprovoked or resulted from a communications mishap. A NATO spokesman, Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, offered details suggesting that allied and Afghan troops operating near the border came under fire from unknown enemies and summoned coalition warplanes for help.
> 
> &#8220;In the early night hours of this morning, a force consisting of Afghan forces and coalition forces, in the eastern border area where the Durand Line is not always 100 percent clear, got involved in a firefight,&#8221; General Jacobson said, according to a transcript of his statements on NATO TV that the alliance provided American officials on Saturday. (The Durand Line is the colonial-era boundary between Pakistan and Afghanistan.)
> 
> &#8220;Air force was called in into this activity,&#8221; he said, &#8220;and we have to look into this situation of what actually happened on the ground.&#8221;
> 
> But several American and allied military, diplomatic and intelligence officials contacted on Saturday said it was unclear what threat, real or perceived, led to the airstrikes or why the allied aircraft fired on the Pakistani troops. &#8220;It&#8217;s real murky right now,&#8221; one senior American official said. &#8220;Clearly, something went very wrong.&#8221;
> 
> Such cross-border attacks have been at the heart of an increasingly hostile relationship between Pakistani and American officials. The United States has demanded that Pakistan do more to stop militants based in its territory, particularly from the feared Haqqani network and Al Qaeda, from crossing into Afghanistan to attack American forces. And United States forces in eastern Afghanistan say they have taken more mortar and rocket fire from positions at or near active Pakistani military posts in recent months, despite complaints to Pakistan about it.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/w...nato-helicopters-kill-dozens-of-soldiers.html



Let us put it this way, had Pakistani air force entered Afghanistan and attacked US/NATO camps inside Afghanistan the same number of times as they did in Pakistan, what would be the response of US/NATO? and what is our response?

They care too much for their soldiers life that they would have left no stone moved to give Pakistan one of the hardest lesson if not the hardest lesson in Pakistan's history, but we only block the route and asked them to evacuate a base only to allow it to open again as it happened earlier also after the US throws a bag of meat (US $) to it's dogs in Pakistan (civilian or military).

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## Abii

guys, I suggest you register on this site and shut some of these idiots up
SkyscraperCity


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## VCheng

RaptorRX707 said:


> *History of NATO violation on Pakisan airspace*
> 
> The helicopters of the North American Treaty Organisation (NATO) have violated Pakistan's airspace on several occasions, some of which were fatal for Pakistan's troops.
> 
> *Last month,* two helicopters intruded several kilometres inside Pakistan territory in Datta Khel town at about 2:00 am.
> 
> Pakistani troops and 'Coalition' helicopters exchanged fire along the Afghan-Pakistani border, resulting in injuries to two Pakistani troops.
> 
> *On November 3, 2010,* Nato helicopters violated Pakistan's airspace near the Pak-Afghan border in the areas of Burkha and Kharlacha of the Kurram Agency.
> 
> The gunship helicopters came 600 metres inside Pakistan border and, after flying in the area for 10 minutes, retreated towards Afghanistan.
> 
> *On September 30, 2010,* Nato helicopters violated Pakistan's airspace and attacked twice in Kurram Agency, killing three security personnel and injuring three others.
> 
> *On December 27, 2010,* two Nato helicopters violated Pakistan's airspace by entering the Landi Kotal area of Khyber Agency bordering Afghanistan.
> 
> *Earlier, on July 26, 2009,* Nato gunship helicopters violated Pakistan's airspace by intruding into Landi Kotal area near Pak-Afghan boarder.
> 
> The helicopters went back after flying in Pakistan's airspace for some time.
> 
> *July 23, 2008,* two Nato aircraft intruded into Pakistani territory in North Waziristan, In September 2008, Nato helicopters violated Pak-Afghan border.
> 
> *Pakistani government did not retaliate properly, due to which NATO troops freely enter into Pakistan territory when they want and attack troops, sometimes resulting in casualties.*



No Angoor Adda, no OBL raid?


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## Raja.Pakistani

Can we imagine if US base would have attacked by some crazy Pakistani and 20 US soldiers would have been killed then US would have not think twice to consider it a war on america 

But But they were not american soldiers

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> I have always maintained that there is never going to be a need for direct confrontation; merely a slow and steady tightening of the noose already in place will do the job just fine over the next few years. What's the rush?



Because the US doesn't get any advantage by a slow & steady tightening of the noose over Pakistan.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

we need a sit in front of sea port like tehreer square until gop comes out and say it loudly to the world " wot is over " as far as we r concerned

TARIQ


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## VelocuR

VCheng said:


> No Angoor Adda, no OBL raid?



There is no death of Pakistan soldiers by the raid. This report is based on NATO history, not US stealth helicopters.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> The worst enemies of Pakistan are inside Pakistan itself, all cloaked in patriotic respectability before a gullible people.



Yes, it is this patriotic respectability that violates Pakistan's sovereignty, & kills Pakistani soldiers & civilians. Oh wait, it's the US drone strikes & helicopters that do that. I'm disappointed in you. I know you don't like it when others show patriotism for Pakistan, but at least have some respect for others that have a different opinions to yours.

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## Al Bhatti

Bilsher007 said:


> Asalaam alikum wr wb;
> 
> Perfect response...exactly my thought. All supply routes must be permanently closed. And 25 martyred Pak soldiers blood must be compensated equally, blood for blood !



Their leaders (military or civilian) are not like our's, just forget about them being brought to justice. They fight for their citizens no matter what, even of they are guilty they will try to get them the least possible sentence. Their dogs in Pakistan (our leaders civilian and military) don't care about the common man, they only care about the bag of meat (US $) thrown to them by their masters.

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## 53fd

gubbi said:


> You need to learn to differentiate between constructive criticism and outright hatred. Going by your record, you've still got a lot to learn. Pakistan does not need "patriots" like you, it needs critics like Mastaan or VCheng and their likes.



Yet, Mr Cheng doesn't like it when I demonstrate the same attitude for the US that he does for Pakistan, asking me to take my US citizenship seriously.

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Because the US doesn't get any advantage by a slow & steady tightening of the noose over Pakistan.



Slow or quick, as long as the goals are met, USA would not care.



RaptorRX707 said:


> There is no death of Pakistan soldiers by the raid. This report is based on NATO history, not US stealth helicopters.



Ah I see. That makes sense now.


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## American Pakistani

ON Friday, the Nato commander in Afghanistan met the Pakistani army chief in Islamabad to discuss communication and coordination across the Pak-Afghan border. Less than 24 hours later, troops at a Pakistani border check post in Mohmand became targets of Nato fire. Twenty-four of them died, according to the Pakistan military, and the incident appears to be the deadliest of its kind; a similar strike in September 2010 took the lives of two soldiers and another in June 2008 killed 11. 

The Pakistani administration`s reaction seemed designed not just to handle the issue domestically but also to send a strong &#8212; and justified &#8212; signal to the US that this matter was not taken lightly. There was a flurry of activity in Islamabad and Rawalpindi on Saturday, with the prime minister placing phone calls to major political parties and rushing back from Multan to convene an emergency meeting of the cabinet`s defence committee. Gen Kayani called a meeting of senior army officers and declared the incident unacceptable, disapproval was conveyed in Washington and Brussels, and Nato supply routes to Afghanistan were blocked. Given the nature of the incident, the reaction was entirely warranted. Previous such incidents have been described as the result of miscommunication or of mistakes that took place during the pursuit, or perceived pursuit, of militants. And it is true that Mohmand is an area through which militants do cross the border. But the fact that the strike was aimed at a military check post, and that a large group was targeted (there were reportedly about 40 soldiers at the post), makes that a tenuous explanation in this case. Only a thorough probe can settle the issue, and in promising one the Isaf chief has done the right thing. But Pakistan must be included in the investigation, and if a mistake was made, Nato must commit to ensuring that its troops will not repeat it in the future. Regardless of the outcome, a formal apology is also required.

Coming at a time when US-Pakistan ties had barely begun to recover, if at all, the incident`s timing is also particularly unfortunate for that relationship. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton`s visit last month had begun to improve the atmosphere somewhat after the latest controversy over the Haqqani network, but this threatens to sour relations and derail cooperation. The Pak-Afghan border has become increasingly dangerous for both countries, with incursions and attacks taking place in both directions. The need is for more cooperation, not less. But the mistrust that an incident like this can foster will do nothing to bring that about.

Dawn News


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## Bhairava

RaptorRX707 said:


> I agree, no country would rescue Pakistan. What I am saying, US is not just focus only on Pakistan but also Russia and China South Sea. US can't afford attack Pakistan in open war. Please my dear Indian friend, thank you for your advices. * I suggest you to dance now for the death of martyrs. *



Why would I ?

I have nothing to gain by either crying or dancing. Don't get hyper-excited.


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## Developereo

VCheng said:


> I think that the civil dis-obedience movement to permanently block the supply routes such as that you mention will be a failure.



We don't know what consequences it will have. But it will do two things regardless:

- it will get ordinary Pakistanis to actually do something THEMSELVES instead of complaining about others (corrupt politicians and weak generals). Who knows? it might actually change the political landscape for the better simply by setting a precedent of actions instead of complaining.

- it will complicate America's relationships in Europe and the CARs by pitting it head-on against Russia. Pakistan is a poor country; we cannot possibly take on NATO militarily, but at least we can divert them through a much tougher neighborhood (diplomatically speaking).

- yes, America will retaliate through economic blackmail, and we should brace for it. The good news is that American arrogance has gotten the better of their prudence and they have alienated major players on the world stage. And America will have to work much harder to make the case for punishing Pakistan. It's one thing to punish us for allegedly supporting Taliban; but to punish a country for an antii-war civil disobedience movement -- especially when growing majorities within NATO itself are tired of the war? It's a much tougher PR campaign.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> What has happened is merely an appetizer. The main dish is yet to be served, followed by several other courses. The _people _of Pakistan are not the problem; it is merely the elite cabal in power.



You're right, it's merely an appetizer. I must say it's a good appetizer, & the main dish will be even better:

In Pakistan, downturn in major Taliban attacks brings cautious optimism - CSMonitor.com



bilalhaider said:


> I have gathered data from reputable internal assessment reports & various think tanks, & analyzed how Pakistan has fared in 2009, 2010 & 2011 from the WOT, to see the trends of violence from terrorism, broken up into different regions. The figures for 2011 are updated till October 15, 2011.
> Terrorism includes suicide bombings, bombings, gun shootings, target killings & other forms of violence.
> 
> These are the results I generated for Pakistan from 2009-2011:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Please do not use this thread for trolling, flaming or baiting. If you don't have anything useful to say, don't post here. I would like to have a serious discussion here.

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## raavan

The reality is America is way too strong for Pakistan. WHATEVER Pakistan tries to do can be very easily countered by America.Its just not Pakistan , I cannot think of any country in this world that can look USA in the eye and say that what u did in Iraq was wrong,what u did in afghanistan was wrong, what u r doing in Pakistan is wrong and what u r going to do in Iran is wrong.... No one can bring America to justice.American lives are more precious than those of other citizen of this world and that it is real

I am in a position to say that USA military is light years ahead. What u see in public domain is NOTHING


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> What has happened is merely an appetizer. The main dish is yet to be served, followed by several other courses. The _people _of Pakistan are not the problem; it is merely the elite cabal in power.



Continued:



bilalhaider said:


> Monthly terrorism violence statistics for 2011:

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## VCheng

Developereo said:


> We don't know what consequences it will have. But it will do two things regardless:
> 
> - it will get ordinary Pakistanis to actually do something THEMSELVES instead of complaining about others (corrupt politicians and weak generals). Who knows? it might actually change the political landscape for the better simply by setting a precedent of actions instead of complaining.
> 
> - it will complicate America's relationships in Europe and the CARs by pitting it head-on against Russia. Pakistan is a poor country; we cannot possibly take on NATO militarily, but at least we can divert them through a much tougher neighborhood (diplomatically speaking).
> 
> - yes, America will retaliate through economic blackmail, and we should brace for it. The good news is that American arrogance has gotten the better of their prudence and they have alienated major players on the world stage.



Good points, let's wait and see if what you propose comes to pass.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Slow or quick, as long as the goals are met, USA would not care.



The US does not want to slowly & steadily tighten the noose over Pakistan, that goes against US interests in Afghanistan.


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## VelocuR

Despite the exercises regularly, Pakistan's border in West is still unprepared and weakness. Worst of all. 

What surprise me, Pakistan military went to sleep at night while NATO awaken professionally. Hilarious. The blame goes to Pakistan Military as they didn't prepare consequences or effective responses. 

2.5KM inside Pakistan soil is a deep.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

hey americans can defeat armies but not nations

no one can force us to provide open routes to nato and u.s forces we r not calling for an open war

TARIQ

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## Bl[i]tZ

I'm not convinced by what PA has reported about the incident

PA says that US gunships attacked their check posts with in their territory and killed their soldiers while they were sleeping.

Now it has transpired that it was actually two check posts that were strafed yesterday. How on earth does a US gunship enters into Pakistani territory and strafes not one but two check posts accidently (whose location was already known to the US - Major Athar Abbas)

There has to be an exchange of fire.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

RaptorRX707 said:


> Despite the exercises regularly, Pakistan's border in West is still unprepared and weakness. Worst of all.
> 
> What surprise me, Pakistan military went to sleep at night while NATO awaken professionally. Hilarious. The blame goes to Pakistan Military as they didn't prepare consequences or effective responses.
> 
> 2.5KM inside Pakistan soil is a deep.



yara even taliban attack at nights why our army personnel doesnot change their sleeping hours 
since they r in such a hostile place

TARIQ


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## Donatello

superkaif said:


> Hi Omar - I have been away on business for a couple of days. Heard the terrible news of the sad sad loss of these soldiers. My heart goes out to the lost ones and of course the families too. What i am disappointed but not surprised is the lack of respect some moronic morons have in even threads like this. They should be thoroughly disgusted with themselves and their families should disown what they are. In certain moments like this if people are unable to feel the sadness or the passions in your heart for moments like this they should stop pretending to have any emotions and feelings for their nation of origin. Is it any wonder people like solomon2 look apon him as a friend? Is it any wonder all Pakistanis are disliking his behavior. I would request MastanKhan to revoke his title as an opinionator as i would be thoroughly ashamed to be in the same bracket as him.



Hey man....we don't need to escalate things here. Emotions are best saved for another day. Lets not let this moment stir up hatred between Pakistanis online. There are people from so many countries here and many more non-members are reading. You should not fight. I would suggest if we stopped this now. If you want to vent your anger, go ahead, try Martial Arts, Boxing or MMA.....but this ain't the right place to do it.

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## Don Jaguar

*NATO attack: Suspend supply lines, vacate Shamsi air base in 15 days, DCC decides*







Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani chairing a meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet at the Prime Minister House in Islamabad on Saturday. PHOTO: PID

*ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has decided to close the logistics supply line to NATO/ISAF forces stationed in Afghanistan with immediate effect, and to ask United States to vacate Shamsi air base within 15 days following the early morning raid by NATO forces on a Pakistani border checkpost on Saturday.*

The decision was taken in an emergency meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, chaired by Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani. The meeting was attended by Federal Ministers, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Services Chiefs including General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

The meeting, which took decisions in light of the Parliament resolution of May 14, 2011 (after the US raid on Abbottabad) decided that land supply route of NATO/ISAF supplies through Pakistan will be suspended, while US forces stationed at Shamsi air base in Balochistan will be asked to leave. The meeting further resolved that that the Pakistani people and the armed forces would safeguard the Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty at all costs.

The Prime Minister will take the Parliament into confidence on the whole range of measures regarding matters relating to Pakistan&#8217;s future cooperation with US/NATO/ISAF, in the near future.

The DCC strongly condemned the attack by NATO/ISAF aircrafts on Pakistani border posts in the Mohmand Agency which had resulted in the deaths of 24 security personnel and injuring 12 soldiers of the Pakistan Army.

*Balochistan bans entry of NATO/ISAF supply trucks*

Mimicing a move by the federal government, the government of Balochistan has banned the entry and exit of containers bearing fuel and other supplies for Afghanistan based ISAF and NATO troops

Chief Minister, Nawab Mohammad Aslam Raisani, has issued an order asking district authorities at Lasbela and Jaffarabad to bar NATO oil tankers and containers from entering Balochistan with immediate effect.

According to a statement issued here on Saturday night, it said that the bar was in reaction to the NATO air strikes on the Pakistani border posts in Mohmand Agency.

Containers and oil tankers carrying fuel and military hardware were stopped near Chaman, a township that shares Paksitan&#8217;s border with Afghanistan. Border security forces did not allow the Afghanistan bound trucks to cross the border.

Another convoy of NATO oil tankers and containers was on its way to Chaman from Dasht area was stopped near Akhtarabad, a suburb of Quetta. The convoy was escorted by Balochistan Levies and security forces.

Long queue was seen in Chaman and Akhtarabad as they were not allowed to proceed further.

On average 200 NATO containers and oil tanker cross Chaman border everyday. &#8220;We were asked to hold NATO containers and oil tankers,&#8221; a senior official said, adding that foolproof security was being provided to NATO trucks in order to thwart any attack from hostile elements.

NATO suppliers are escorted by personnel of Levies and security forces since they are often targeted by armed groups in Balochistan.

*Top echelon condemn &#8216;unacceptable&#8217; checkpost attack*

Earlier, the attacks had drawn a strong reaction from Pakistan with NATO supplies being halted, the US Ambassador to Pakistan being summoned and condemnations from the highest offices in Pakistani government.

Pakistani president Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani, and the army chief, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani all condemned the attack, terming it &#8220;unacceptable&#8221;.

President&#8217;s spokesperson, Farhatullah Babar said that the President had called the attack by NATO/ISAF helicopters, resulting in loss of precious lives of Pakistani soldiers, as unacceptable. President Zardari said a strong protest had also been registered with NATO and ISAF over the incident and they have been asked to take urgent action against those responsible for this aggression.

The powerful Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, directed in a statement issued by the Pakistani military that &#8220;all necessary steps be under taken for an effective response to this irresponsible act.

&#8220;A strong protest has been launched with NATO/ISAF in which it has been demanded that strong and urgent action be taken against those responsible for this aggression,&#8221; the statement continued.

Gilani had summoned Cabinet&#8217;s Defence Committee for a meeting which is currently underway at the PM house.

*Protests lodged with US, NATO/ISAF*

Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir on Saturday called in US Ambassador Cameron Munter to lodge a strong protest on the unprovoked NATO/ISAF attack.

The Foreign Secretary conveyed to the US Ambassador that the unprovoked attack by NATO/ISAF had deeply incensed the Government and the people of Pakistan, according to a press statement issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

&#8220;The President, the Prime Minister and the Government of Pakistan strongly condemn the attacks which were totally unacceptable, constituted a grave infringement of Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty, were violative of international law and a serious transgression of the oft conveyed red lines and could have serious repercussions on Pakistan-US/NATO/ISAF cooperation&#8221;, the statement read.

The Ambassador was informed that the Prime Minister had convened an emergency meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet to evaluate the situation arising from these uncalled for attacks by NATO/ISAF forces.

Strong protests have also been lodged in Washington and at the NATO Headquarters in Brussels, the statement added. As reported earlier, Pakistani Embassy in Washington had lodged a verbal complaint with the State Department.

The US embassy in Islamabad had offered condolences.

*NATO supplies halted for &#8216;security reasons&#8217;*

NATO supply trucks and fuel tankers bound for Afghanistan were stopped at the town of Jamrud in Khyber tribal region near the city of Peshawar hours after the raid, officials said.

One official though said that the supply route had been shut for security reasons.

&#8220;There is possibility of attacks on NATO supplies passing through the volatile Khyber tribal region, therefore we sent them back towards Peshawar to remain safe,&#8221; he said.

The border crossing at Chaman in Balochistan was also closed, Frontier Corps officials said.

NATO attack: Suspend supply lines, vacate Shamsi air base in 15 days, DCC decides &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> My position is entirely consistent; you confuse that with the patent unjust and unequal realities that I accept and support consistently.
> 
> International geopolitics has always been, is, and will always be above concepts of justice and equality. However, the application of these concepts as internal social programs gives a nation the strength to pursue its interests in the international arena, and not otherwise.
> 
> In order to come out of the present situation intact, Pakistan must embark on true internal reforms that provide justice, freedom and economic opportunity, as Asim says and I agree. It must also drop its support of terrorism as state policy, and the Army must become subservient to civilian authority. However, I admit that this is a tall order indeed and may not be possible to achieve.
> 
> That is the more important war, not the one that everybody is concentrating on.


Again, for reasons that I mentioned in my earlier post, that you chose to not respond to, Pakistan's foreign policy is no longer mutually exclusive from domestic policies by a sitting government, especially when the domestic challenges are as severe as they currently are.

As for the rest of your nonsense about 'dropping support of terrorism as state policy', you would do well to return to your earlier statement about 'establishing the facts' before jumping to conclusions, something that you consistently appear to only apply to the West.

The only consistency in your positions and arguments is the hypocrisy and double standards favoring the West/US that you choose to apply.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Again, for reasons that I mentioned in my earlier post, that you chose to not respond to, Pakistan's foreign policy is no longer mutually exclusive from domestic policies by a sitting government, especially when the domestic challenges are as severe as they currently are.
> 
> As for the rest of your nonsense about 'dropping support of terrorism as state policy', you would do well to return to your earlier statement about 'establishing the facts' before jumping to conclusions, something that you consistently appear to only apply to the West.
> 
> The only consistency in your positions and arguments is the hypocrisy and double standards favoring the West/US that you choose to apply.



We can agree to disagree with mutual respect here.


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## Omar1984

bilalhaider said:


> You're right, it's merely an appetizer. I must say it's a good appetizer, & the main dish will be even better:
> 
> In Pakistan, downturn in major Taliban attacks brings cautious optimism - CSMonitor.com



That is why NATO attacked Pakistani troops so they can send anti-pakistan elements across the border to cause more terrorism in Pakistan.

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## Donatello

I think USA and/or the countries who were involved, must pay blood money like in Raymond Davis case.


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## AmberDutt

what I am wondering is that how come these jets and helis (which apparently attacked twice) didnt get picked up on Pakistani radar.. They were normal assets and not like the stealth ones used in Abbotabad. Did PAF even scramble to intercept..?? Or were the radars again switched off??


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Being emotional to the point of losing logic and sanity is detrimental to the cause, hence my grip on being level headed is important here.


Your 'level headedness' is the equivalent to people like 'Mukhtaran Mai' getting 'raped by jirga' and being advised to 'accept ground realities since the opponent is too powerful and things like equality and justice don't apply'.

Bravo! Your moral depravity is clear as day.

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## Omar1984

His warning is still relevant. Even his strongest critics will agree especially after this attack.

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## Don Jaguar

Agni5000 said:


> *It looks like Pakistan soldier engaged in fighting with NATO and Afghan troops*. Nato called for air support, and they finished fighting.



Even NATO and ANA didn't claimed anything like this. So how can you say?

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## Imran Khan

every thing is messed uped in pakistan .army navy air force gov generals being a pakistani is biggest shame on earth today .may god bring bloody revolution and these scums killed be public. the time when 2 rangers got kidnapped pak army launch an operation and kill100+ pakistanis in islamabad but when some one come from out of border they even failed to shot single shot? these forces do nothing to secure pakistan since they can not protect themselves .better stop funds and reduce massive numbers of forces and spent this money on education health .such a waste is unacceptable .

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## 53fd

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Your 'level headedness' is the equivalent to people like 'Mukhtaran Mai' getting 'raped by jirga' and being advised to 'accept ground realities since the opponent is too powerful and things like equality and justice don't apply'.
> 
> Bravo! Your moral depravity is clear as day.



Mr Cheng (master of conjecture & flame baits), who claims to love Pakistan & the US equally, but when I demonstrate for the US the same attitude he has for Pakistan, he catches me out, & says I should show more loyalty towards my adopted country.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The _people _of Pakistan are not the problem; it is merely the elite cabal in power.


Interesting - most opinion polls, Pakistani and western, would indicate that the 'ghairat policies' attributed to the 'Establishment' are strongly supported by an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis.


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## Omar1984

bilalhaider said:


> Mr Cheng (master of conjecture & flame baits), who claims to love Pakistan & the US equally, but when I demonstrate for the US the same attitude he has for Pakistan, he catches me out, & says I should show more loyalty towards my adopted country.



When there is injustice being done, you should always speak out. Peace-loving Americans are also against this war OF terror. Are they all anti-american. Hating U.S. policies does not make anyone anti-american. This war OF terror is also harming the U.S.

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## Imran Khan

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistani soldiers were asleep when NATO attacked them you damn troll.



AGAIN LAME EXCUSE ? omar my dear brother they were on border you know what? we never send them to go and sleep .


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## 53fd

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Interesting - most opinion polls, Pakistani and western, would indicate that the 'ghairat policies' attributed to the 'Establishment' are strongly supported by an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis.



He claims that the Pakistani people are not the problem, yet he claims elsewhere that the people that demonstrate patriotism for Pakistan are a problem, is another one of his inconsistencies. If the people manage to get 'indoctrinated' easily, it is quite clear to me that the people are the problem as well.

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## Omar1984

Imran Khan said:


> AGAIN LAME EXCUSE ? omar my dear brother they were on border you know what? we never send them to go and sleep .



They are humans. They cant keep awake 24 hours a day. Pakistani officials said they were asleep when NATO attacked.


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## Omar1984

Agni5000 said:


> U.S. helicopter attack that killed up to 28 Pakistan troops was act of self-defence | Mail Online





> A senior Pakistani military officer told Reuters the attack came "without any reasons" and that soldiers were asleep at the time.
> 
> Pakistani officials have told the BBC there was no militant activity in the area at the time.




BBC News - Nato: 'Highly likely' we caused Pakistan troop deaths


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## Al Bhatti

Imran Khan said:


> AGAIN LAME EXCUSE ? omar my dear brother they were on border you know what? we never send them to go and sleep .



They must have misunderstood what one of the dog's of USA in Pakistan (Rehman Malik) said so they fell asleep.

&#8220;We have sealed the borders along Afghanistan in Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, and there will be complete restriction on the movement of Afghans because they are behind most of the terror attacks&#8221;

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/128864-borders-afghanistan-sealed-off-rehman-malik.html


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## Imran Khan

Omar1984 said:


> They are humans. They cant keep awake 24 hours a day. Pakistani officials said they were asleep when NATO attacked.



i already explain you guys yesterday that how the hell i manage with 108 guys and 24 branches .my branches work 18 hours daily .all of them was sleeping no warning no damn any system of emergency wakeup ? then its another failure of pak army thye go and sleep on borders while we think they guard us .i use my brain .ISPR is lier you know pure lier .i don't believe as quraan what army said its right? nope if they were sleeping its there fault if they were not then its more big fault .

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## Al Bhatti

why can't i go past page 64 ?


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## VelocuR

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> yara even taliban attack at nights why our army personnel doesnot change their sleeping hours
> since they r in such a hostile place
> 
> TARIQ



Yaar, it is unacceptables. We should learn to sleep with one eye open alert. I think, drones attack will come soon and will play with our emotional.

-----------------



> The US, a few months back, *had turned down* Pakistan&#8217;s request to close Shamsi base after the Osama Bin Laden incident. Similarly, a similar incident on Sept 30, 2009, which killed two Pakistani troops, led to the closure of one of NATO&#8217;s supply routes through Pakistan for 10 days. Nato apologised for that incident, which it said happened when Nato gunships mistook warning shots by the Pakistani forces for a militant attack.



US will reject Pakistan's request to vacate Shamsi airbase within 15 days. The high tension temperature will decrease few days later to sort out.

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## karan.1970

Omar1984 said:


> They are humans. They cant keep awake 24 hours a day. Pakistani officials said they were asleep when NATO attacked.



Ever heard of watch rotations.. There is more to this than is being made public.. Till that comes out, everything is speculation and jingoism..

Condolences to the families of soldiers killed in this operation..


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## Imran Khan

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yaar, it is unacceptables. We should learn to sleep with one eye open alert. I think, drones attack will come soon and will play with our emotional.




we should stop being emotional for now pakistan attacked 100s times and now it time to admit we are lalaland and open country anyone can attack on us our army navy airforce is just for showcase .

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## Don Jaguar

ISLAMABAD: The United States (US) has apologized Pakistan over NATO attack on a checkpost and announced for a joint investigation regarding the attack, 

US Ambassador Cameron Munter&#8217;s apology statement has been issued here.

In the statement he said that he heard about the attack from media and is sorry to know about loss of lives in the attack.

Munter said the US and Pakistan will jointly investigate the issue

US apologizes Pakistan over NATO attack


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## Markus

Ok guys...so wats the latest update?

Has Pakistan taken any concrete steps apart from closing NATO supply lines and asking them to vacate Samshi airbase?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> yara even taliban attack at nights why our army personnel doesnot change their sleeping hours
> since they r in such a hostile place
> 
> TARIQ


The posts probably had a few soldiers on guard duty to detect and warn against possible Taliban infiltration/attack attempts - no one was expecting NATO to murder Pakistani troops with an unprovoked attack through choppers and fighter jets.

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## pmukherjee

RIP to the dead soldiers. Condolences to the bereaved families.


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## Don Jaguar

Agni5000 said:


> *May be fighting with them without uniform and when they retaliated run back to base*. But Nato heli finished even they are in base.



Source please?



Agni5000 said:


> U.S. helicopter attack that killed up to 28 Pakistan troops was act of self-defence | Mail Online



They will never apologize if they are not on mistake.

US apologizes Pakistan over NATO attack


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## Imran Khan

Markus said:


> Ok guys...so wats the latest update?
> 
> Has Pakistan taken any concrete steps apart from closing NATO supply lines and asking them to vacate Samshi airbase?



WTH man you are kid? they are sleeping now after late night meeting then dinner and today is sunday .thats all done bu pakistan .


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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> we should stop being emotional for now pakistan attacked 100s times and now it time to admit we are lalaland and open country anyone can attack on us our army navy airforce is just for showcase .



Lol, I said same. Some people started to dislike Kiyani and Suleman for the failures of Pakistan's protection. They are much worst than terrorists attacks. Zardari values dollars important than the death of our soldiers.


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## Al Bhatti

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The posts probably had a few soldiers on guard duty to detect and warn against possible Taliban infiltration/attack attempts - no one was expecting NATO to murder Pakistani troops with an unprovoked attack through choppers and fighter jets.



So , no one expects India to attack , or shall we say no one will expect US using the same move from our eastern side and attacking inside Pakistan on Punjab Taliban or any other so called "banned organization" compounds.

So they can sleep as well?


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## karan.1970

Don Jaguar said:


> ISLAMABAD: The United States (US) has apologized Pakistan over NATO attack on a checkpost and announced for a joint investigation regarding the attack,
> 
> US Ambassador Cameron Munters apology statement has been issued here.
> 
> In the statement he said that he heard about the attack from media and is sorry to know about loss of lives in the attack.
> 
> Munter said the US and Pakistan will jointly investigate the issue
> 
> US apologizes Pakistan over NATO attack



I think the reporter doesnt have a good grasp of English language.. Munter has just regretted the deaths.. Not apologized for NATO causing them


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## kas786

Bangalorean said:


> And what makes you think that Pakistanis are all "lions"?? Convenient blaming the "politicians and leaders" always.
> 
> The real problem is the Pakistani awam. Always deluded about their power and strength, calling themselves "lions, tigers, invincible, brave", and all kinds of nonsense just to inflate the ego.



Glad to see you banned. 

Anyways, I think Pakistan should carry out a retaliatory attack (in Afghanistan) and prepare for the worst. Our country is headed nowhere anyways at the moment, we might as well go down with dignity if we have to. Not that we will be taken down so easily, I mean look, they don't even have the balls to attack Iran. Only problem is that we have baghairat leaders at the moment. We're either very tolerant or very stupid. Iran or North Korea would never have taken sh!t like this, despite the fact that they are much weaker than us militarily.

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## iPhone

self delete


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## 53fd

I read from different sources, one Western source said there was a hot pursuit of terrorists & that the Pakistani troops getting killed was an accident, whereas another source says it was in self-defense. Lots of inconsistencies coming out from the Western sources.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The posts probably had a few soldiers on guard duty to detect and warn against possible Taliban infiltration/attack attempts - no one was expecting NATO to murder Pakistani troops with an unprovoked attack through choppers and fighter jets.



we didnot expect u.s will come and attack on abbotabad they did it and it is not the 1st time it happened

i believe they r trained for worst case scenario 

to tell u the truth i always have my doubts about their professionalism ( many incidents ) 

TARIQ


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## Don Jaguar

Imran Khan said:


> very nice wait for more drone attacks and border attacks with toilet paper of apology happy now



I posted this just to prove that they are apologizing because they were on mistake.


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## Imran Khan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The posts probably had a few soldiers on guard duty to detect and warn against possible Taliban infiltration/attack attempts - no one was expecting NATO to murder Pakistani troops with an unprovoked attack through choppers and fighter jets.



please sir please they are on and threat can come from up down left right .now these small things have to teach them by civil? NATO bomb them 5 times before this attack still they think no one is coming from air? very very funny


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## 53fd

karan.1970 said:


> I think the reporter doesnt have a good grasp of English language.. Munter has just regretted the deaths.. Not apologized for NATO causing them



Definition of an apology:



> Apology - A formal, public statement of regret

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## Character-Dheela

Only restriction is pipeline.ISAF should go for alternative route and cut down soldiers to balance the high cost of transit from CAR region avoiding pakistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Al Bhatti said:


> So , no one expects India to attack , or shall we say no one will expect US using the same move from our eastern side and attacking inside Pakistan on Punjab Taliban or any other so called "banned organization" compounds.
> 
> So they can sleep as well?


India is not on the Western border is she?

Again, the posts would probably only need a few guards on duty at night, on rotation, to detect any potential Taliban infiltration or attack.


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## Markus

Imran Khan said:


> WTH man you are kid? they are sleeping now after late night meeting then dinner and today is sunday .thats all done bu pakistan .



Ok dude, I got my answer.


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## Imran Khan

Don Jaguar said:


> I posted this just to prove that they are apologizing because they were on mistake.



fire 2 shaheens on bagram air base and say soryy lets see what happen then .sorry is BS noting more .they yesterday check our behave after same old drama of supply and shamsi they got it there puppets done the job now they dont give any damn to pakistan . you think they are worry ? lolz they know kiyani geelani zardari well NATO us is not worry nor have any problem 100% because they know it. if any other country may be they close US embassy close all relations and kick out USA but we are not a nation but team of beggars .


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## Don Jaguar

karan.1970 said:


> I think the reporter doesnt have a good grasp of English language.. Munter has just regretted the deaths.. Not apologized for NATO causing them



He must not regret the deaths if we attacked them first but he knows that's not the case that is why he regret.


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## T-Rex

*These apologies mean nothing. The other day BBC was airing one documentary which claimed that by 2006 it became clear to the US that Pakistan was double crossing the US forces in Afghanistan. It claimed that Pakistan's ISI was secretly aiding the Afghan Talibans against the US and NATO forces in Afghanistan. BBC would not make a documentary regarding such an issue and then air it had it not been the official US stand. The implication of it is grave, the US forces will willingly attack Pakistani forces and then apologize to negate the possible consequence.*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Imran Khan said:


> please sir please they are on and threat can come from up down left right .now these small things have to teach them by civil? NATO bomb them 5 times before this attack still they think no one is coming from air? very very funny



This is a border post - NATO conducts operations all along the border through its air assets, and most of them don't need to cross into Pakistan to attack positions in Pakistan, given the standoff weapons they possess. So barring building up these 'border posts' into full fledged bases with advanced air defense capabilities, how could this attack have been prevented?

Please try and think about the constraints and issues involved (in terms of a response by the soldiers at the border posts) rationally and logically - NATO called in air support and the choppers and jets launched missiles and bombs, probably from the Afghan side of the border - how do you stop those bombs and missiles at that point?


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## VelocuR

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> we didnot expect u.s will come and attack on abbotabad they did it and it is not the 1st time it happened
> 
> i believe they r trained for worst case scenario
> 
> *to tell u the truth i always have my doubts about their professionalism ( many incidents ) *
> 
> TARIQ



That's what disappoint me of their lack disciplines. Imagine, 28-30 soldiers sit idly and didn't fire at the helicopters? there was no air-response from Pakistan Airforces to protect these soldiers. How pathetic. I am correct, their option is to keep silence and do nothing. 

Oh wait, Pakistan Military is one of the best military powerful in the world! 

*

Let's add 28 martyers to the lists of soldiers death which will be 5000 soon and 40,000 civilians deaths. *


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## kas786

Pakistan Armed Forces should be put on high alert.

*If even a cute fu#king bird flies from Afghanistan into Pakistan border, blow the fu#k out of it. *



For all we know, it's probably one of those bird-like drones..lol


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## Nelson

Don Jaguar said:


> ISLAMABAD: The United States (US) has apologized Pakistan over NATO attack on a checkpost and announced for a joint investigation regarding the attack,
> 
> US Ambassador Cameron Munter&#8217;s apology statement has been issued here.
> 
> In the statement he said that he heard about the attack from media and is sorry to know about loss of lives in the attack.
> 
> Munter said the US and Pakistan will jointly investigate the issue
> 
> US apologizes Pakistan over NATO attack


That's not the apology.

If I feel sorry for the dead and their families doesn't mean that I'm apologizing. They are yet to investigate the issue.


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## Imran Khan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This is a border post - NATO conducts operations all along the border through its air assets, and most of them don't need to cross into Pakistan to attack positions in Pakistan, given the standoff weapons they possess. So barring building up these 'border posts' into full fledged bases with advanced air defense capabilities, how could this attack have been prevented?
> 
> Please try and think about the constraints and issues involved (in terms of a response by the soldiers at the border posts) rationally and logically - NATO called in air support and the choppers and jets launched missiles and bombs, probably from the Afghan side of the border - how do you stop those bombs and missiles at that point?



ok after 5 times attacked what pakistan did for secure guys from air? nothing even after this bloody attack what pakistan did? nothing keep them on mercy of nato us? very nice if pakistan did something today apache was down .these companies have no any AA weapon even if they wake up what they can do is just run and hide ?


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## fatman17

*US vows full probe into Pakistan border incident*

By ANDREW MIGA | AP 


WASHINGTON (AP)  The Obama administration on Saturday pledged a full investigation into a NATO attack that allegedly killed 24 Pakistani troops.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in a joint statement offered their "deepest condolences" for the loss of life in the cross-border incident in Pakistan. Clinton and Panetta also said they "support fully NATO's intention to investigate immediately."

Secretary Clinton, Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Gen. John Allen, commander of the NATO-led coalition forces in Afghanistan, each called their Pakistani counterparts as well, the statement said.

U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter also met with Pakistani government officials in Islamabad.

"In their contacts, these US diplomatic and military leaders each stressed -- in addition to their sympathies and a commitment to review the circumstances of the incident -- the importance of the US-Pakistani partnership, which serves the mutual interests of our people," the statement said.

"All these leaders pledged to remain in close contact with their Pakistani counterparts going forward as we work through this challenging time," the statement concluded.

The incident was a major blow to American efforts to rebuild an already tattered alliance vital to winding down the 10-year-old Afghan war. It was the latest in a series of setbacks to the alliance, often caused by border incidents.

Islamabad called the bloodshed in one of its tribal areas a "grave infringement" of the country's sovereignty.

If confirmed, it would be the deadliest friendly fire incident by NATO against Pakistani troops since the Afghan war began a decade ago.

A NATO spokesman said it was likely that coalition airstrikes caused Pakistani casualties, but an investigation was being conducted to determine the details.

The relationship between Pakistan and the U.S. has severely deteriorated over the last year, especially following the covert American raid that killed Osama bin Laden in a Pakistani garrison town in May. Islamabad was outraged it wasn't told about the operation beforehand.

The border issue is a major source of tension between Islamabad and Washington, which is committed to withdrawing its combat troops from Afghanistan by the end of 2014.

Much of the violence in Afghanistan is carried out by insurgents who are based just across the border in Pakistan. Coalition forces are not allowed to cross the frontier to attack the militants. However, the militants sometimes fire artillery and rockets across the line, reportedly from locations close to Pakistani army posts.

_the spin-selling has started!!!_

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## kas786

Okay, well if NATO is doing these attacks from within the Afghan border, then we need to do the same from our borders. The worst thing that can happen to Pakistan is Pakistan going down _without_ a fight. That would be the most humiliating defeat. We'll give out a sincere apology too. Sorry, we were trying to target "terrorists". Our technology is really bad compared to yours, sorry.


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## karan.1970

bilalhaider said:


> Definition of an apology:



*Complete definition of apology*
a written or spoken expression of one's regret, remorse, or sorrow *for having insulted, failed, injured, or wronged another*

Even I regret the loss of life here.. Does not mean I am apologizing..

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## Don Jaguar

Nelson said:


> That's not the apology.



Definition of an apology:

Apology - A formal, public statement of regret

Post # 964 and Post # 969


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## VelocuR

I demand independent International probe, not US investigation probe.


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> *US vows full probe into Pakistan border incident*
> 
> By ANDREW MIGA | AP
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) &#8212; The Obama administration on Saturday pledged a full investigation into a NATO attack that allegedly killed 24 Pakistani troops.
> 
> [/I]



thank you sir we know soon we forget it and move on and USA know it too dont worry nothing is gonna happen its pakistan


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Imran Khan said:


> ok after 5 times attacked what pakistan did for secure guys from air? nothing even after this bloody attack what pakistan did? nothing keep them on mercy of nato us? very nice if pakistan did something today apache was down .these companies have no any AA weapon even if they wake up what they can do is just run and hide ?


Again, after the bombs and missiles from choppers and/or jets were launched, the posts were pretty much destroyed - what weaponry in the PA's arsenal would detect and neutralize these missiles and bombs fired from across the border, in a matter of minutes, if not seconds?


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## T-Rex

*The US is not going to vacate the base so nicely. Pakistan has to be really tough this time because the US does not take the Pakistani ultimatums seriously and you cannot blame them because the leaders of Pakistan do not follow through what they say.*


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## 53fd

Frankly speaking, I'm not interested in what the West says, I'm interested in how Pakistan reacts. 24/28 soldiers getting killed by NATO troops that violated Pakistani territory is not a joke, it is an act of war.

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## VelocuR

bilalhaider said:


> Frankly speaking, I'm not interested in what the West says, I'm interested in how Pakistan reacts. 24/28 soldiers getting killed by NATO troops that violated Pakistani territory is not a joke, it is an act of war.



Karan1970 and Nelson Bharatis worried about the official apology or fake apology something important for them. What the hell? Do we care about their apology? 

What we seek for Pakistan is to response 30 helicopters shoot down equally.


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## 53fd

karan.1970 said:


> *Complete definition of apology*
> a written or spoken expression of one's regret, remorse, or sorrow *for having insulted, failed, injured, or wronged another*
> 
> Even I regret the loss of life here.. Does not mean I am apologizing..



Here's another complete definition of an apology:



> A formal, public statement of regret, such as one issued by a newspaper, government, or other organization.



https://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=10....,cf.osb&fp=76c64cffaeed964&biw=1857&bih=1139

Anyways, I couldn't care less if he apologized or not. This act is beyond apologies.

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## T-Rex

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Again, after the bombs and missiles from choppers and/or jets were launched, the posts were pretty much destroyed - what weaponry in the PA's arsenal would detect and neutralize these missiles and bombs fired from across the border, in a matter of minutes, if not seconds?



*A cheesy smile from Mr. Ten Percent!*


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## Imran Khan

really pakistani forces losing every thing they are doing noting since 10 years they are hiding being killed and more killed thats all they done . never seen they reply to nato us if you guys are so scared of them then why we have forces let public do some thing like afghan taliban


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## Water Car Engineer

This is pretty strange... R.I.P


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## VelocuR

*Deadly intrusion: Pakistan inflamed as 24 killed in NATO strike*

http://i1.tribune.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/298377-Deadlyintrusiondesignsamadsiddiqui-1322343066-523-640x480.JPG
Government blocks NATO supply routes US told to vacate Shamsie Airbase in 15 days All ties with ISAF/NATO/US to be &#8216;reviewed&#8217; Civil, military leaders lash out at the provocation. DESIGN: SAMAD SIDDIQUI 

PESHAWAR/ISLAMABAD: For possibly the first time, the intensity of the official response matched the shock of the event.

Airstrikes by Nato jets and helicopters on Pakistani military outposts along the border with Afghanistan left at least 24 soldiers dead and 14 injured early Saturday morning. And by Saturday evening, Pakistan&#8217;s top civil and military leadership struck a crescendo in its response.

The United States has been told to evacuate a logistically key airbase it operates in Balochistan &#8211; Shamsie Airbase &#8211; within 15 days. In addition, Pakistan&#8217;s fury was driven home with an official statement that it will shut down Nato supply routes operating through its territory &#8211; something that has happened for the first time, though supply routes have previously been temporarily blocked unofficially following similar attacks.

The decisions came following a meeting of the high-powered cabinet committee on defence &#8211; a panel that includes the prime minister, the service chiefs and key ministers.

The move to block the supply routes comes &#8220;in accordance with the resolution of the Joint Session of the Parliament of 14 May, 2011,&#8221; a statement issued after the meeting said.

Though the official statement came in the evening, the move to block supplies came a lot earlier. Authorities in Khyber Agency and Balochistan had already shut down Nato supply routes earlier in the day.

To further accentuate its anger over the incident, a statement by the committee also said that the government will revisit and undertake a complete review of all programmes, activities and cooperative arrangements with the US/Nato/Isaf, including diplomatic, political, military and intelligence-sharing.

Speaking to The Express Tribune on condition of anonymity, a US official said the demand to vacate Shamsi Airbase had not yet been sent through &#8220;official channels.&#8221;

*What happened*

The incident, which was one of the deepest-ever Nato attacks, occurred some two kilometres inside Pakistani territory.

It remains unclear what exactly happened, but the attack took place around 2 am in the Baezai area of Mohmand Agency. A security official in Peshawar told The Express Tribune that the attack targeted two security outposts in the Salala area of the Baezai tehsil. The official went on to identify the outposts as &#8220;Boulder&#8221; and &#8220;Volcano&#8221;.

The official also confirmed that two officers, including a major and captain, were killed in the attack. The officers were identified as Major Mujahid and Captain Usman. Tribal sources said that the Salala area is situated close to the Pak-Afghan border, some 55 kilometres northwest of Mohmand Agency headquarters Ghalaani.

&#8220;This time their jets also intruded &#8230; which is more alarming. They actually attacked two check posts,&#8221; an army official said. When asked why Pakistan failed to intercept the intruding aircraft, he said the distance between the border and the check posts was just two kilometres and they had managed to complete their operation within seconds.

*NATO&#8217;s response*

&#8220;Close air support was called in, in the development of the tactical situation, and it is what highly likely caused the Pakistan casualties,&#8221; said General Carsten Jacobson, spokesman for the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf). He added that he could not confirm the number of casualties, but Isaf is investigating the &#8220;tragic development&#8221;.

&#8220;We are aware that Pakistani soldiers perished. We don&#8217;t know the size, the magnitude,&#8221; he said. The commander of Nato-led forces in Afghanistan, General John R Allen, said he offers his condolences to the family of any Pakistani soldiers who &#8220;may have been killed or injured&#8221;.

*US expresses regret*

US Ambassador Cameron Munter regretted the lives lost in the attack. In a short statement issued by the US embassy, he said, &#8220;I have seen press accounts of an incident on the Pak-Afghan border in which Pakistani soldiers were reportedly killed. I regret the loss of life of any Pakistani serviceman, and pledge that the United States will work closely with Pakistan to investigate this incident.&#8221;

*Points to be noted*

The attack came a few hours after a meeting between the commanders of forces on both sides of the border &#8212; Commander Isaf General Allen, and Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani. The meeting discussed border control and enhanced cooperation.

Speaking to the media, Pakistan military spokespersons said that the excuse that the aircraft were chasing militants was feeble, given that the area in question had been cleared of militants and hideouts.

Published in The Express Tribune, November 27th, 2011.


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## VelocuR

*Factbox: NATO supply routes into Afghanistan &#8211; some facts*






Nato declined to give details of how shipments through Pakistan are divided between the routes.


KABUL: There are two routes into Afghanistan from Pakistan, one across the Khyber Pass to the Afghan border town of Torkham and on to Kabul. The other goes through Balochistan to the border town of Chaman and on to the Afghan city of Kandahar.

Between them, these two routes account for just under one third of all cargo that the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) ships into Afghanistan.

Just over one-third of all cargo goes on routes dubbed the &#8220;northern distribution network&#8221; through Central Asia, and the Caucasus or Russia. The remaining 31% is flown in.
*
Nato declined to give details of how the shipments through Pakistan are divided between the two routes, but a spokesman said the figures likely change each month.*

Some imported supplies for the fledgling Afghan armed forces, which the United States and its allies are building up, also come through the Pakistani routes.

*What&#8217;s changed*

As recently as July, the balance of supplies transiting through Pakistan and the northern distribution network were weighted in Pakistan&#8217;s favour, with slightly more than half of ground-transported supplies arriving through Khyber or Chaman.

After disruptions, Nato-led forces decided to push supply networks away from reliance on Pakistan. The US has decided that only 25% of ground cargo should arrive via Pakistan. This was done with the goal of &#8220;reducing reliance on any single line of communication to avoid any unnecessary vulnerabilities should that network become unavailable&#8221;, according to an Isaf spokeswoman.

Two cross-border attacks by Nato aircraft in autumn 2010, that killed three Pakistani soldiers, closed one supply route through Pakistan for several days. Nato apologised for the incident which it said happened when its gunships mistook warning shots by the Pakistani forces for a militant attack.

In April a rally on a key highway by thousands of people against drone strikes again closed the supply route briefly.

The routes through Pakistan, particularly the northern one, are also vulnerable to insurgent attacks. In May a bomb on a Nato fuel truck killed at least 16 people in the Khyber area.

*The alternatives*

The northern distribution network threads through either Russia or the Caucasus, across the Central Asian states of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and then into northern Afghanistan. It is largely used to bring commercial-type cargo &#8211; described by Isaf as &#8220;sustainment items like food and spare parts&#8221; to troops serving in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan also has a border with Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and China &#8211; but that is too remote and high-altitude to make a major transit route. What would be a convenient and cheap link through Iran&#8217;s port of Chabahar to western Afghanistan is ruled out by hostility between Tehran and Washington.

Published in The Express Tribune, November 27th, 2011.


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## 53fd

There are 2 supply routes through Pakistan for NATO: one through Chaman for Southern Afghanistan, & through Torkham for Central & Northern Afghanistan. Both have been closed off.

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## Nelson

Don Jaguar said:


> Definition of an apology:
> 
> Apology - A formal, public statement of regret


Thank you for this kind enlightenment. I fail to find his statement where he regretted. If being sorry for the dead is an apology for you then I'm fine with that. I wish there was a clear apology rather than playing with the words. 



> Post # 964 and Post # 969


 
964 is by character dheela and 969 is by T-Rex. I didn't see any apology by US in those posts.


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## VelocuR

I think, it is massive consquences attack by NATO maybe due to some reasons. 

The reason possible is gas pipelines deal with Iran, TAPI, and otherwise China/Pakistan recent military exercises.

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## Pukhtoon

Pakistani Soldiers who embraced "SHAHADAT" in NATO Attack!


Kiya Tamasha Hua Islam Ki Taqdeer K Saath,
Qatl_e_Shabir (a.s) Hua Nara_e_Takbeer K Saath.
( Dr.Allama Muhammad Iqbal ).

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## Safriz

RaptorRX707 said:


> I think, it is massive consquences attack by NATO maybe due to some reasons.
> 
> The reason possible is gas pipelines deal with Iran, TAPI, and otherwise China/Pakistan recent military exercises.


 
or just another angry islamophobic pilot who wanted to rid the world of some muzzies.
they give their pilots quite a lot of choices and authority while up in the air....and thevpilot may have missed out the real target and in his frusteration shot some muzzies.
pakistan should demand to hand over the pilots to pakistan and bring them to justice.

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## 53fd

This was not an accident, but a calculated strike. Probably in light of recent events transpiring in the region. And we can definitely be sure about one thing: there is a lot more going on behind the scenes than just the supply lines being closed, & Shamsi airbase being asked to vacate. This incident will move Pakistan firmly away from the US camp, most likely into the China-Russia-Iran camp, both in terms of the military & non-military aspects.


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## Imran Khan

Pukhtoon said:


>



war on terror gift arrived for allies of pakistan  better is kiyani pasha geelani zardari inside these coffins

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## Abhishek_

bilalhaider said:


> This incident will move Pakistan firmly away from the US camp, most likely into the China-Russia-Iran camp, both in terms of the military & non-military aspects.


there is no such thing as a china-russia-iran camp, get real bilal

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## JonAsad

These soldiers martyred for nothing- Their death will achieve nothing- They died a useless death-
Pakistan is becoming a country of baygherats-
RIP.

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## VelocuR

Pukhtoon said:


>



It is tearing sad, these are brave soldiers. Please listen moment and raise our salute to these soldiers. *We are indeed down but NOT OUT. * 











How hard it must be for mothers in this shock news.

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## indiatester

Unanswered questions for me.
1) Why did NATO risk attacking PA posts?
I mean their purposes are not served by actually hitting PA. If they were pursuing militants, I am pretty sure they were knew where the boundary was. If they doubted the PA of acting with the militants, they would have just added this to the list of issues they have with Pakistan.
I am not a military guy, but shouldn't a senior military head approve of air attack that too inside the territory of Pakistan? Would they not know that they will provoke Pakistan.

2) If there was a "tactical situation", why did not the PA soldiers not call in their air support.

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## 53fd

Abhishek_ said:


> there is no such thing as a china-russia-iran camp, get real bilal



Yes, it's called the camp that is against the US presence in the region.


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## JonAsad

Ask the soldiers- ask any of the dead soldiers if you can-
Did they sign up to die like this?- Like sitting ducks?-
Is this the Shahadat they always wanted?- 
I would not want to die like this- No- I dont even want a Shahadat like this- without firing a bullet-

RIP-

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## Safriz

JonAsad said:


> Ask the soldiers- ask any of the dead soldiers if you can-
> Did they sign up to die like this?- Like sitting ducks?-
> Is this the Shahadat they always wanted?-
> I would not want to die like this- No- I dont even want a Shahadat like this- without firing a bullet-
> 
> RIP-


 
this is what happens if you trust the American military..they are traitors and back stabbers.


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## JonAsad

safriz said:


> this is what happens if you trust the American military..they are traitors and back stabbers.



You seem to know- i know- Every one- even the indians know this- The establishment is Deaf, Blind or BAYGHERAT?-


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## Pukhtoon

JonAsad said:


> Ask the soldiers- ask any of the dead soldiers if you can-
> Did they sign up to die like this?- Like sitting ducks?-
> Is this the Shahadat they always wanted?-
> I would not want to die like this- No- I dont even want a Shahadat like this- without firing a bullet-
> 
> RIP-




 2nd to you !!

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## Omar1984

indiatester said:


> Unanswered questions for me.
> 1) Why did NATO risk attacking PA posts?
> I mean their purposes are not served by actually hitting PA. If they were pursuing militants, I am pretty sure they were knew where the boundary was. If they doubted the PA of acting with the militants, they would have just added this to the list of issues they have with Pakistan.
> I am not a military guy, but shouldn't a senior military head approve of air attack that too inside the territory of Pakistan? Would they not know that they will provoke Pakistan.
> 
> 2) If there was a "tactical situation", why did not the PA soldiers not call in their air support.



Their purpose was to attack the Pakistani military while smuggling terrorists across the border into Pakistan. They were not happy to see the sudden peace in Pakistan these days so they probably sent a bunch of suicide bombers into Pakistan like they have done in the past.

Pakistan security forces should be in high alert.


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## Al Bhatti

Imran Khan said:


> fire 2 shaheens on bagram air base and say soryy lets see what happen then .sorry is BS noting more .they yesterday check our behave after same old drama of supply and shamsi they got it there puppets done the job now they dont give any damn to pakistan . you think they are worry ? lolz they know kiyani geelani zardari well NATO us is not worry nor have any problem 100% because they know it. if any other country may be they close US embassy close all relations and kick out USA but we are not a nation but team of beggars .



If we had a leaders (not the dogs of USA that we have in military and as civilian) we should have announced US ambassador as "persona non-grata" and given him the ultimatum to close the embassy and leave with 15 days long time back.

Ultimatum given to vacate shamsi base, and shall we buy it that the dogs of USA in Pakistan did not allow them to use any other base apart from this base for it's drones.

This base is being used as a scape goat only.


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## Al Bhatti

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> India is not on the Western border is she?
> 
> Again, the posts would probably only need a few guards on duty at night, on rotation, to detect any potential Taliban infiltration or attack.



eastern border is silent for a long time and they do not expect them to do something like this, do they? so those there can also "sleep"?


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## Bl[i]tZ

Adding to my previous statement, since there has been no apology as of now for the op and this is not the first time Pakistan has asked US to vacate the Shamsi airbase or stopped NATO supplies. 

What other pressure tactics does Pakistan have to deter US for conducting such ops against its military in what the US sees as obstructionist in its A'stan policy?


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## Al Bhatti

Imran Khan said:


> fire 2 shaheens on bagram air base and say soryy lets see what happen then .sorry is BS noting more .they yesterday check our behave after same old drama of supply and shamsi they got it there puppets done the job now they dont give any damn to pakistan . you think they are worry ? lolz they know kiyani geelani zardari well NATO us is not worry nor have any problem 100% because they know it. if any other country may be they close US embassy close all relations and kick out USA but we are not a nation but team of beggars .



Why 2 just fire one shaheen on bagram and and see how Pakistan is treated internationally even Karzai and company (who owes is life and power to Pakistan, he was saved by Pakistan from the hands of sure death by the Taliban and brought to safety in Queta few days before being made incharge of Afghanistan) will be shouting as if he is the super power in the region.


----------



## JonAsad

Nelson said:


> Chest thumping and self satisfying statement. Grow up man. You're talking as if Pakistani troops are allowed to be killed by NATO.



You should try a little harder to hide your glee- it is obvious what you lot feel from inside- save your fake sympathies and crocodile tears- we dont need them- By getting interested in asking for apology- you want more confrontation- These things of Indians are obvious now- 

and i totally completely agree with your second line- -

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## Al Bhatti

Wasn't our air defense on western side on high alert after the "Osama Raid" ?

So everything was relaxed a few days after the incident as USA threw some bags of meat (US $) in Pakistan.

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## Jango

indiatester said:


> Unanswered questions for me.
> 1) Why did NATO risk attacking PA posts?
> I mean their purposes are not served by actually hitting PA. If they were pursuing militants, I am pretty sure they were knew where the boundary was. If they doubted the PA of acting with the militants, they would have just added this to the list of issues they have with Pakistan.
> I am not a military guy, but shouldn't a senior military head approve of air attack that too inside the territory of Pakistan? Would they not know that they will provoke Pakistan.
> 
> 2) If there was a "tactical situation", why did not the PA soldiers not call in their air support.



point number 1- This is what is ambiguous.

point number 2- PA soldiers were probably sleeping, and the few night duty sentrys by the time they could alert anybody, were murdered by those helis. Although it is a valid question , where was the PA support?


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## Areesh

Pakistanisage said:


> for your kind information, admiral Mansur ul Haque was dragged back to Pakistan from the US and made to repay every dime of the bribe he took. Has Zardari been given the same treatment. Would Mr. 10% return the ill gotten wealth back to Pakistani treasury ?


 
Yeah he was dragged in the court and all that. I was just giving an example that even Military officers are involved in corruption as Mr Pakistan nationalist were asking for it.


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## Safriz

no they didnt die while sleeping...they were murdered by nato while asleep.
so there is the difference.


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## JonAsad

&#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1606;&#1746; &#1570;&#1580; &#1578;&#1705; &#1575;&#1587; &#1602;&#1608;&#1605; &#1705;&#1740; &#1581;&#1575;&#1604;&#1578; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1576;&#1583;&#1604;&#1740;
​&#1606;&#1729; &#1729;&#1608; &#1580;&#1587; &#1705;&#1608; &#1582;&#1740;&#1575;&#1604; &#1570;&#1662; &#1575;&#1662;&#1606;&#1740; &#1581;&#1575;&#1604;&#1578; &#1705;&#1746; &#1576;&#1583;&#1604;&#1606;&#1746; &#1705;&#1575;


---------



&#1580;&#1740;&#1587;&#1746; &#1593;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605; &#1608;&#1740;&#1587;&#1746; &#1581;&#1705;&#1605;&#1585;&#1575;&#1606;​

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## Filmmaker

NATO attack: US vows full probe into death of Pak soldiers

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## Jango

PakShaheen79 said:


> The Aftermath! | Facebook
> 
> Aftermath: Made by army officer after the attack.
> 
> *Caution: Mildly Graphics. Injured soldiers, covered dead bodies*



You can see from the video that they left in a hurry. Ammo boxes, the water bottles in front of the jeep, the injured being tended to while lying on the ground.


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## Al Bhatti

Before also it was asked to be vacated but after US threw some bags of meat (US $) to the generals and civilain leaders and everything was sorted out by waging the tail in thanks for the meat.

Shall we buy that Shamsi airbase is the only air base in Pakistan used for the drone strikes? are the dogs (generals and civilian leaders) having any loyalty towards Pakistan that might have prevented them form allowing their masters to operate other bases/s for drones or any other reason related to operations inside Pakistan.


----------



## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

ALLAH UN BAGHAIRAT LOGON KA WAHI HASHAR KARIN JO QAROON KA KIYA

AMEEN

TARIQ

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## Capt.Popeye

Is there any need to get to worked up about this "Shamsi Airbase" episode? Not yet. Let's wait for about another 15 days or so and see which way the "cookie crumbles".

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## Omar1984

So this means they were helping America kill innocent Pakistanis in tribal areas by allowing them a base, and then made a law against it to fool the public.

Shame! Shame! PPP government.

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## Bratva

PakShaheen79 said:


> The Aftermath! | Facebook
> 
> Aftermath: Made by army officer after the attack.
> 
> *Caution: Mildly Graphics. Injured soldiers, covered dead bodies*



I'm amazed you are an active member and still you can't recognize this video was posted here some weeks ago and there was a great debate on it. This incident occurred in NWA, not YESTERDAY incident it is


----------



## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

Omar bhai don't forget to include army generals too 
yeh sub mili bhagat hay

TARIQ

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## iPhone

JonAsad said:


> Ask the soldiers- ask any of the dead soldiers if you can-
> Did they sign up to die like this?- Like sitting ducks?-
> Is this the Shahadat they always wanted?-
> I would not want to die like this- No- I dont even want a Shahadat like this- without firing a bullet-
> 
> RIP-



not every soldier's death is glorious in the manner where he takes many enemy combatants with him, or fights to defend his position or takes enemy's advantous position. Many die without firing a single bullet, many die without even knowing when they died, many die en route to batlefield when their transport vehicle is blown up, many die accindetly pulling their hand grenade pin, many trip and fall off a cliff or die of drowning and so on and so forth. These may not be deaths as glorious in a tridional sense but I consider death of a soldier in ANY MANNER while in performence of his duty as a respected and glorous death.


----------



## Nelson

JonAsad said:


> You should try a little harder to hide your glee- it is obvious what you lot feel from inside- save your fake sympathies and crocodile tears- we dont need them- By getting interested in asking for apology- you want more confrontation- These things of Indians are obvious now-
> 
> and i totally completely agree with your second line- -


We feel sorry for the dead and that's what we can do. If your hatred doesn't allow you to see it then we can't do anything about it. I was replying to the claim that the US have apologized. So there was no need for you to come up with the self satisfying statement that "had Indians done it, they wouldn't have been alive to apologise". That was a childish and immature.


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## PakShaheen79

mafiya said:


> I'm amazed you are an active member and still you can't recognize this video was posted here some weeks ago and there was a great debate on it. This incident occurred in NWA, not YESTERDAY incident it is



Uh, my bad... I recieved it in my email last night and all the commments on the vid are no old then 24 hours. Haven't seen it before. I will delete my post.


----------



## Al Bhatti

Omar1984 said:


> So this means they were helping America kill innocent Pakistanis in tribal areas by allowing them a base, and then made a law against it to fool the public.
> 
> Shame! Shame! PPP government.



All the previous governments were more corrupt than each other and are equally responsible for all this. no one is innocent.

Pakistani public is equally guilty of all that happened to Pakistan.

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## Don Jaguar

Omar1984 said:


> So this means they were helping America kill innocent Pakistanis in tribal areas by allowing them a base, and then made a law against it to fool the public.
> 
> Shame! Shame! PPP government.



Not only PPP majority politicians are american puppets.


----------



## JonAsad

iPhone said:


> not every soldier's death is glorious in the manner where he takes many enemy combatants with him, or fights to defend his position or takes enemy's advantous position. Many die without firing a single bullet, many die without even knowing when they died, many die en route to batlefield when their transport vehicle is blown up, many die accindetly pulling their hand grenade pin, many trip and fall off a cliff or die of drowning and so on and so forth. These may not be deaths as glorious in a tridional sense but I consider death of a soldier in ANY MANNER while in performence of his duty as a respected and glorous death.



By glorious- it should be obvious the dead should have at least known that their death will be avenged- i am sure with previous history of such incidents- made them sure- they will die in vain and only we could block nato supply lines in retaliation- ask me and- No- i would not want to die like that in a useless- imposed war- safeguarding external interests-

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 AM ----------




Character-Dheela said:


> and we do daily 26/11 or kargil from afghanistan...last day was not good i think
> need to give more and our list is too long.
> 
> 40000 dead with 70 billion lost and label of terrorist state and osama land
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> we learned from you.t.hks for your tutorials
> 
> so next time be careful



Ha- apka character dhela hai sahi kero usay- -

About 71- Thanks for accepting you belonging to a terrorist state-

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## Bl[i]tZ

Stop the Indo Pak BS guys!

Update






CAS was called as the tactical situation unfolded.

I am a little reluctant to buy Pakistani army's claim of murder while sleeping now. 

More credibility to what CNN/Telegraph reported

SFs were carrying out some op inside Pak.

Took fire.

Called in CAS.

Later it transpires that PA took heavy casualties.

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## hamtaro

So nato says the Pakistani outpost was unmarked and opened fire on the chopper.


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## JonAsad

Al Bhatti said:


> WAR WITH INDIA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CURRENT SITUATION ON AFGHAN BORDER.
> 
> MODS PLEASE ACT​



it has every thing to do with India-

The soldiers and equipment on our western borders are directly effected by silent war with india- politically and militarily- 
The lack of any basic S2A missiles and inadequate defence on western side is a result of that- 
we need to change our focus-
Bigger and powerful than indian threat- enemy and a terrorist is sitting on our west side- taking cheap shots- Wake Up Pakistan-

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## Bl[i]tZ

JonAsad said:


> The soldiers and equipment on our western borders are directly effected by silent war with india- politically and militarily-
> The lack of any S2A missiles and inadequate defence on western side is a result of that-
> we need to change our focus-
> Bigger and powerful than indian threat- enemy is sitting on our west- taking cheap shots-



I agree with what you said but the day a US chopper or drone will be shot down by PAF or Air Defence units, be prepared for Predator and helicopters transgressing into your territory with escort figher planes. Lets not even get into what US has in its arsenal to defend its asset in airspace.


----------



## Guest01

Areesh said:


> And azad Kashmir is part of Pakistan right??? And according to Indians it is indian territory. So where is your bravado now to liberate this so called Indian territory buddy. Too hard for you kids to understand???


 
Wow, 40 pages added between Delhi & Frankfurt. Quite fast moving thread. But clearly, looking at the discussion, Pakistanis intermittently need to top up the honor after such incidents by reciting duly the history that the army has tirelessly worked to teach them. An example will be this haggling which proves that pakistan army is the bravest army in the world even when they lost half of the country (more actually if one looks at the population - but that never mattered anyway. Did they? The bengali people?), messed up pakistan by increasing and fostering Extremism in the country. Bravely planning to defeat and cut hazaar times the enemies by using (no, not the soldiers) terrorist groups as an arm of their foreign policy. Achieving great victory and raising national honor in siachen and kargill. OBL and Mehraan were more nishaans of haider. And now when a few soldiers got delivered via NATO, the nutcases for Pakistani army here are busy trying to prove what losers are the Indian fellows! There has been no let up in blaming the civilian government even with the knowledge that the real don of pakistan is the army and the civilians are merely puppets (some glorified such as imran khan, others not so glorified such as now nawaz, all subject to the dynamic favoritism of the pakistani army). 

There have been suggestions that NATO should be bombed and pakistani army should once again should become brave by telling siraj haqqani and co. to put some turban bombs out there in afghanistan. In fact it seems that if some members are trying to get niahan-e-haider tonight by murdering their keyboards!

There is (no surprises there) no rralization that US and NATO have in the past pointed out that pakistani army soldiers let taliban operate against afghanistan in plain sight distance. US also warned that it will not accept casualities in the process of allowing the pakistani dreams of strategic depth in afghanistan (deeper than ocean/ strategic depth - what is the fascination with depth here  ) and will take counter measures. Evidently US found the terrorist coordinates very close to the pakistani post and now we have these 70 odd pages of the marshal kaum self confidence boosting. What is not yet being understood is that there has been now a clear message that this love bedding with taliban is not being tolerated and there wll be action. If someone is thinking that such a cross border intrusion would not have been cleared with senior military and civilian authorities then you can continue to believe in the great indian rope trick. Now US will surely make all the right noises but please remember that the pakistani reaction has been factored in and the relationship bounce is already measured after the last shutoff of goods movement by pakistan. And if pakistanis here and per their policy too can excel in doublespeak in the guise of their national interest then why cannot the US and NATO? 

Now try to focus for a moment on the dead soldiers and why did what happen , happen. And what is next. This marde-momin stuff can wait a little bit I guess.

If the message is not clearly understood then the pakistani generals will be putting more such soldiers in harms way. These slain men would have signed up for a salary doing the job of protecting pakistan and not for being spent in this perverted thinking of the generals by using the soldiers as shields for the real assets = the haqqani boys.

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## JonAsad

Bl[i]tZ;2330523 said:


> I agree with what you said but the day a US chopper or drone will be shot down by PAF or Air Defence units, be prepared for Predator and helicopters transgressing into your territory with escort figher planes. Lets not even get into what US has in its arsenal to defend its asset in airspace.



Another indian fantasy- you should stop speaking for the Amrikans- remain an indian- thats what you are- Dont behave like a scarecrow- 
A lost amrikan chopper and some dead amrikan terrorists will not create a war- its not child play- Even Amrika didn't attack iran after its transformation and some dead amrikan special forces people trying to free amrikan hostages-
Dont jump too high- A Pakistani response will only result in a strong message sent to amrikan terrorists- We have every right to defend our sovereignty-


----------



## Devil Soul

Nato attack martyred soldiers&#8217; funeral prayer offered
Updated 42 minutes ago
PESHAWAR: The funeral prayer of the martyred 24 soldiers, who yesterday were made victims in a Nato attack in Mohmand Agency, has been offered at the Corp Headquarters here, Geo News reported.

Army Chief General Ashfaque Pervaiz Kayani, Pukhtunkhaw Governor and chief minister, federal minister Ghulam Bilor, provincial ministers, Corp Commander and other high military and civil officials attended the funeral prayer. 

Earlier, the Army Chief arriving this morning visited Peshawar CMH and enquired about the health of wounded soldiers.


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## Cool_Soldier

Public Protest In Pakistan against Nato strike.


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

JonAsad said:


> Another indian fantasy- you should stop speaking for the Amrikans- remain an indian- thats what you are- Dont behave like a scarecrow-
> A lost amrikan chopper and some dead amrikan terrorists will not create a war- its not child play- Even Amrika didn't attack iran after its transformation and some dead amrikan special forces people trying to free amrikan hostages-
> Dont jump too high- A Pakistani response will only result in a strong message sent to amrikan terrorists- We have every right to defend our sovereignty-


Stop telling me who should I speak for - US or India? You've no idea what's my relation with either of them and I've no intention of discussing that here.

I am just trying to reason and get a rational response. The question is how will you retaliate. 

This is not the first time Pakistan has asked US to vacate the Shamsi airbase or stopped NATO supplies.

I want to know what cards does Pakistan have.


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## Safriz

after this incident NATO has come up as a far greater threat than India.
no matter what india does..they dont come at night plundering our check posts and killing our soldiers.

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## Bratva

Second thing, Pakistani Soldiers don't get aggressive and fire upon Helicopters if they are not provoked first. 

Many incidents happened in past when nato helicopters crossed the boundry line but we haven't heard that soldiers firing upon Helicopter aggressively. 

If this time Soldiers "WERE" firing" if we suppose for the sake of argument then it means Helicopter not only crossed the border but also fired it's armament in our Area, Making soldiers to act upon the incoming threat.

This samll bits of facts are always ignored by the "Opposing PARTY" here.


----------



## Roybot

Condemn and condole: Turkey promises to ask NATO for inquiry &#8211; The Express Tribune



> *ISLAMABAD: Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu early Sunday morning telephoned Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar to express solidarity with the people and government of Pakistan on the Nato attack in Mohmand Agency that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers and injured 16 others.*
> 
> Khar thanked Davutoglu for Turkey&#8217;s expression of solidarity and condemned the attack by terming it &#8220;unprovoked and totally unacceptable&#8221;. She also said that Nato&#8217;s action shows a complete disregard for international law and human life.
> 
> *Davutoglu assured the Pakistani foreign minister that as a member of Nato, Turkey would ask for an impartial inquiry into the attacks. He added that loss of Pakistani soldiers was &#8220;as painful as losing Turkish soldiers&#8221;.*

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## Jango

mafiya said:


> I'm amazed you are an active member and still you can't recognize this video was posted here some weeks ago and there was a great debate on it. This incident occurred in NWA, not YESTERDAY incident it is



This was aired yesterday on some news channels as well. I doubted it as well.


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## Roybot

_Pakistani soldiers carry the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a Nato strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. &#8211; AFP_

Troops buried amid fury over Nato strike


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## BATMAN

indianrabbit said:


> Every time sovereignty is compromised, it is followed by such announcement and then back to normal.
> 
> Remember in Wiki Leaks the Pakistani politicians told the Americans that they will protest in public but support in private.



This was non other than shameless Gilani, truly he is a hypocrite.


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## salmakh84

According to inside sources, this was a botched operation.

the US/NATO routinely carries out operations INSIDE PAKISTAN (yeah, dont accept it, keep sleeping.. zzzZzz. the Locals call it a CHAPPAA). This time it was the same. They were carrying out an operation INSIDE pakistan and came under fire. Had to call in MORE air support. (maybe they had wrong intel..)

Due to the mountainous region and darkness (2 am in the night), they mistook Pakistan's post for the place where they had to do the operation (or thought the fire was from the base, which is NOT likely). And FRIED all the Pakistani Allies instead..

The fun part is: Our government ALREADY claims that CIA was told empty shamsi air base. When asked, they said NO operations are going on. This is old news. 

BUT NOW, Government is saying to NATO to empty Shamsi Airbase.. what is this drama? Is government lying now or was it lying before?

Also, what about jacobabad bases? They are still with ISAF/NATO forces. Why aren't those being cleared out?

Edit: My bro's friend is a pilot in PAF (C-130). he says now flights have stopped (maye temporary) but before this, NATO had flights EVERYDAY inside Pakistan!



> Islamabad depends on billions in U.S. aid and Washington believes Pakistan can help it bring about a peace in Afghanistan ahead of a combat troop withdrawal at the end of 2014.
> 
> "*The fact is that such incursions of our sovereignty have become routine* and we have become so dependent on the U.S. that we just have to grin and bear it," *said an editorial in Pakistan's Express Tribune.*


This comes from a liberal pro war paper which I hate!

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## DarK-LorD

As I already said NATO has declared that it acted in Self Defence.Somebody fired upon them.


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## Devil Soul

Pakistan buries troops amid fury over NATO strike
By Express / Reuters
Published: November 27, 2011
The families of soldiers who were killed when Nato attacked a Pakistani checkpost in the Mohmand Agency on Saturday, buried their loved ones on Sunday.
The relatives of Major Mujahid Hussain and Captain Usman Ali said that the soldiers &#8220;sacrificed their lives&#8221; for the sake of their country, and they were proud of their sacrifices.
Major Mujahid Hussain hailed from Larkana, and had joined the Pakistan army nine years ago. His body will be taken to his native village after being honoured at the General Head Quarters and Pannu Aqil cantonment.
His family said that they will not &#8220;hesitate to offer any sacrifice&#8221; for Pakistan.
Captain Usman Ali from Sahiwal city, left behind a widow and a young daughter. The 23-year-old solder got married last year and was recently promoted to the rank of captain. Usman&#8217;s father said his son joined the Pakistan army due to his patriotism.
Nato helicopters and fighter jets attacked two Pakistan military outposts on Saturday, killing 24 soldiers in what Pakistan said was an unprovoked assault. Nato and US officials expressed regret about the deaths of the Pakistani soldiers, but the exact circumstances of the attack were unclear.
Fury over attack
The attack was the latest perceived provocation by the United States, starting with the secret raid which killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in May, and the question is whether ties will break or whether the two sides will remain stuck in a bad marriage of convenience.
&#8220;US stabs Pakistan in the back, again,&#8221; said a headline in the Daily Times, reflecting fury over the attack in Pakistan, a regional power seen as critical to US efforts to stabilise neighbouring Afghanistan.
Television stations showed the coffins of the soldiers draped in green and white Pakistani flags in a prayer ceremony at the headquarters of the regional command in Peshawar.
Pakistan shut down Nato supply routes into Afghanistan &#8211; used for sending in nearly half of the alliance&#8217;s land shipments &#8211; in retaliation for the worst such attack since Islamabad uneasily allied itself with Washington following the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States. That is unlikely to cool tempers in a country where anti-American sentiment runs high even when ties between Islamabad and Washington are smooth.
About 500 members of Jamaat-e-Islami, Pakistan&#8217;s most influential religious party, staged a protest in Mohmand tribal area, where the Nato attack took place. &#8220;Down with America&#8221; and &#8220;Jihad is the only answer to America&#8221;, they yelled.
Around 40 troops were stationed at the outposts t the time of the attack, military sources said. Two officers were reported among the dead. &#8220;They without any reasons attacked on our post and killed soldiers asleep,&#8221; said a senior Pakistani officer, requesting anonymity.
Blunt statements
The border is often poorly marked, and Afghan and Pakistani maps have differences of several kilometres in some places, military officials have said. Pakistan responded with unusually blunt statements condemning the incident as a violation of its sovereignty and it reserved the right to retaliate. Pakistan is a vital land route for nearly half of Nato supplies shipped overland to its troops in Afghanistan, a Nato spokesman said.
Land shipments account for about two thirds of the alliance&#8217;s cargo shipments into Afghanistan. A similar incident on Sept 30, 2010, which killed two Pakistani service personnel, led to the closure of one of Nato&#8217;s supply routes through Pakistan for 10 days.
Nato apologised for that incident, which it said happened when NATO gunships mistook warning shots by Pakistani forces for a militant attack. US efforts to repair ties with Pakistan have suffered several big setbacks starting with the unilateral US special forces raid that killed bin Laden in a Pakistani town where he had apparently been living for years. Pakistan condemned the secret operation as a flagrant violation of its sovereignty, while suspicions arose in Washington that members of Pakistan&#8217;s military intelligence had harboured the al Qaeda leader.
The military came under unprecedented criticism from both Pakistanis who said it failed to protect the country and American officials who said bin Laden&#8217;s presence was proof the country was an unreliable ally in the war on militancy.
Pakistan&#8217;s army, one of the world&#8217;s largest, may see the NATO incursion from Afghanistan as a chance to reassert itself, especially since the deaths of the soldiers are likely to unite generals and politicians, whose ties are normally uneasy. Pakistan&#8217;s jailing of a CIA contractor, Raymond Davis, and US accusations that Pakistan backed a militant attack on the US embassy in Kabul have added to the tensions. &#8220;From Raymond Davis and his gun slinging in the streets of Lahore to the Osama bin Laden incident, and now to the firing on Pakistani soldiers on the volatile Pakistan-Afghan border, things hardly seem able to get any worse,&#8221; said the Daily Times. Islamabad depends on billions in US aid and Washington believes Pakistan can help it bring about a peace in Afghanistan ahead of a combat troop withdrawal at the end of 2014.
&#8220;The fact is that such incursions of our sovereignty have become routine and we have become so dependent on the U.S. that we just have to grin and bear it,&#8221; said an editorial in The Express Tribune.

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

Troops buried after NATO attack
DAWN.COM (31 minutes ago) Today


Pakistan on Sunday buried 24 troops killed in a NATO cross-border air raid that has pushed a crisis in relations with the United States towards rupture. NATO helicopters and fighter jets attacked two Pakistan military outposts on Saturday, killing the soldiers in what Pakistan said was an unprovoked assault.

Islamabad retaliated by closing the border crossings used by the international coalition to supply its troops in neighboring Afghanistan. NATO and U.S. officials expressed regret about the deaths of the Pakistani soldiers, but the exact circumstances of the attack were unclear. &#8211; Text by Reuters, photos by Agencies.





Pakistani soldiers salute the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a NATO strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. The United States moves to salvage ties with Pakistan after NATO air strikes on border outposts killed 24 soldiers and plunged relations into crisis, backing a full probe and expressing condolences. &#8211; AFP Photo


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## BATMAN

safriz said:


> no they didnt die while sleeping...they were murdered by nato while asleep.
> so there is the difference.



we keep loosing soldiers in similar fashion, every fortnight.


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## Devil Soul

Pakistani soldiers carry the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a NATO strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. &#8211; AFP Photo


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## BATMAN

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> As I already said NATO has declared that it acted in Self Defence.Somebody fired upon them.



Apache called airsupport in self defence !!!!

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## SQ8

Devil Soul said:


> Pakistani soldiers carry the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a NATO strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. &#8211; AFP Photo



I cant thank you for this picture, as it represents grief and makes my blood boil.
Those responsible for this fiasco should pay, question is.. will they?

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Santro said:


> I cant thank you for this picture, as it represents grief and makes my blood boil.
> Those responsible for this fiasco should pay, question is.. will they?



I was avoiding to write anything about those images 

though i was always against this stupid wot and how the army is still going on with it 
but seeing those coffins making me mad and feel sorry for them

TARIQ


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## Jango

salmakh84 said:


> According to inside sources, this was a botched operation.
> 
> the US/NATO routinely carries out operations INSIDE PAKISTAN (yeah, dont accept it, keep sleeping.. zzzZzz. the Locals call it a CHAPPAA). This time it was the same. They were carrying out an operation INSIDE pakistan and came under fire. Had to call in MORE air support. (maybe they had wrong intel..)
> 
> Due to the mountainous region and darkness (2 am in the night), they mistook Pakistan's post for the place where they had to do the operation (or thought the fire was from the base, which is NOT likely). And FRIED all the Pakistani Allies instead..
> 
> The fun part is: Our government ALREADY claims that CIA was told empty shamsi air base. When asked, they said NO operations are going on. This is old news.
> 
> BUT NOW, Government is saying to NATO to empty Shamsi Airbase.. what is this drama? Is government lying now or was it lying before?
> 
> Also, what about jacobabad bases? They are still with ISAF/NATO forces. Why aren't those being cleared out?
> 
> Edit: My bro's friend is a pilot in PAF (C-130). he says now flights have stopped (maye temporary) but before this, NATO had flights EVERYDAY inside Pakistan!
> 
> 
> This comes from a liberal pro war paper which I hate!



Nothing new there. C-17's are a everyday sight at Chaklala airbase.

Shamsi airbase was now not being used for drone ops, rather only for logistics.

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## K-Xeroid

*The message is loud and clear from the All Parties Conference (APC), hosted by Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani

"Pakistan will protect its sovereignty at all costs. The declaration issued at the end of a marathon session, in which the leadership from all political parties sat with the army high command, is indicative of a strong political will of people of Pakistan that they stand united at a critical juncture and will spare no effort to defend the country s borders against any ill-conceived aggression".*
What about All parties conference agenda?


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## Jango

Devil Soul said:


> Pakistani soldiers carry the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a NATO strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. &#8211; AFP Photo



May they rest in peace and their death not go in vain.

Makes you want to tear your hair out.

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## T-Rex

BATMAN said:


> Apache called airsupport in self defence !!!!


*
Here's uncle sam's explanation:
*
*Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official*


Jon Boone in Kabul and agencies
The Observer, Sunday 27 November 2011

An attack by Nato aircraft on Pakistani troops that allegedly killed as many as 28 soldiers and looks set to further poison relations between the US and Pakistan was an act of self-defence, a senior western official has claimed.

According to the Kabul-based official, a joint US-Afghan force operating in the mountainous Afghan frontier province of Kunar was the first to come under attack in the early hours of Saturday morning, forcing them to return fire.

The high death toll from an incident between two supposed allies suggests Nato helicopters and jets strafed Pakistani positions with heavy weapons.

The deadliest friendly fire incident since the start of the decade-long war also prompted Pakistan to ban Nato supply trucks from crossing into Afghanistan and to issue an order demanding the US quit the remote Shamsi airbase, from which the US has operated some unmanned drone aircraft. At border crossings, hundreds of supply trucks are reportedly stranded by the ban, with drivers fearing insurgents will take the opportunity to attack if they are not allowed to move.

A spokesman for Nato's International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) said it was "highly likely" that aircraft which had been called into the area to provide "close air support" to troops on the ground was responsible for causing casualties among the Pakistani soldiers.

For their part, a statement by the Pakistani military claimed that it was they who were attacked first, forcing them to respond to Nato's "aggression with all available weapons".

According to Pakistani officials the 40 or so soldiers stationed at the outposts were asleep at the time of the attack. Government officials said the two border posts that were attacked had recently been established to try to stop insurgents who use bases in Afghanistan to attack Pakistan from crossing the border and launching attacks.

Afghan intelligence say the US-Afghan force was conducting operations against suspected Taliban training camps in the area.

The Obama administration promised a full investigation. Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, and Leon Panetta, the defence secretary, issued a joint statement saying they had each spoken to their Pakistani counterparts to express their condolences for the loss of life.

Pakistan was blunt that the killings represented a serious setback for the two countries' tattered alliance. The prime minister's office said the foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, told Clinton on Sunday that the attack was unacceptable, showed complete disregard for human life and had sparked rage within Pakistan.

The vagueness of the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is one potential, and relatively innocent, explanation for the incident. Drawn up by the British Raj in 1893, there is little agreement on where the so-called Durand Line actually falls, meaning troops from either side of the border can wander into the neighbouring country without realising it. One senior military official said that, in places, rival maps have discrepancies of "multiples of kilometres &#8211; sometimes as much as five kilometres".

Much of the fighting in Afghanistan is conducted by guerrillas based a short distance inside Pakistan. Nato forces are not allowed to cross the border and militants sometimes fire artillery and rockets across the line from locations close to Pakistani army posts.

And yet both sides have worked hard to try and minimise any confusion. The attack happened just a day after John Allen, the US commander of Nato forces in Afghanistan, met with Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, the Pakistani army chief, to discuss enhanced co-operation on the border.

But a more troubling explanation would be that insurgents in the area were operating under the nose of Pakistani security forces. Many Afghan officials believe Pakistan helps the Taliban with cross-border operations.

Edrees Momand of the Afghan Border Police said that a US-Afghan force in the area near the Pakistani outposts detained several militants on Saturday morning.

"I am not aware of the casualties on the other side of the border but those we have detained aren't Afghan Taliban," he said, implying they may have been Pakistani or other foreign national Taliban operating in Afghanistan.

Whatever the outcome of investigations, the incident is likely to do yet more damage to the critical relationship between the US and Pakistan. The alliance between the two countries has been repeatedly battered in the past year, first by the jailing of a CIA contractor and then by US special forces who raided deep inside Pakistani territory and killed Osama bin Laden.

More recently the US has accused Pakistan of backing a militant group who launched a 20-hour attack on the US embassy in Kabul.

Washington believes Pakistan continues to support the Taliban, a movement it publicly backed in the 1990s, in order to have influence in Afghanistan. But at the same time as supporting the enemies of the US, Pakistan remains crucial to the military mission in Afghanistan.

John Allen was quick to release a statement saying the incident had his "highest personal attention".

"My most sincere and personal heartfelt condolences go out to the families and loved ones of any members of Pakistan security forces who may have been killed or injured," he said.

Islamabad reacted with fury to the attack.

"This is an attack on Pakistan's sovereignty," said Pakistan's prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani. "We will not let any harm come to Pakistan's sovereignty and solidarity."

In a statement General Kayani promised "all necessary steps be undertaken for an effective response to this irresponsible act.

"A strong protest has been launched with Nato/Isaf in which it has been demanded that strong and urgent action be taken against those responsible for this aggression."

A cabinet committee convened by Gilani said the government would launch a complete review of its diplomatic, political, military and intelligence relationships with the US.

The vast bulk of Nato supplies arrive in Afghanistan by trucks that haul equipment up from the port of Karachi to the Khyber Pass, a key crossing point over the mountainous border into Afghanistan.

The shutting down of the border to Nato traffic has happened in the past during periods of Pakistani displeasure with Afghanistan and its foreign backers.

A similar incident last year in which two Pakistani troops were killed led to the closure of one of Nato's supply routes for ten days.

However, in recent years the alliance has opened up alternative supply routes through Central Asia, reducing its reliance on the route through Pakistan.


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## Rig Vedic

Indians are requested to confine their remarks to expressing sympathy, instead of arguing various petty points.

Pakistanis may also note that there could also be false-flaggers stirring up arguments and resentments purposely.

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## Jango

T-Rex said:


> *
> Here's uncle sam's explanation:
> *
> *Nato air attack on Pakistani troops was self-defence, says senior western official*
> 
> 
> Jon Boone in Kabul and agencies
> The Observer, Sunday 27 November 2011
> 
> An attack by Nato aircraft on Pakistani troops that allegedly killed as many as 28 soldiers and looks set to further poison relations between the US and Pakistan was an act of self-defence, a senior western official has claimed.
> 
> According to the Kabul-based official, a joint US-Afghan force operating in the mountainous Afghan frontier province of Kunar was the first to come under attack in the early hours of Saturday morning, forcing them to return fire.
> 
> The high death toll from an incident between two supposed allies suggests Nato helicopters and jets strafed Pakistani positions with heavy weapons.
> 
> The deadliest friendly fire incident since the start of the decade-long war also prompted Pakistan to ban Nato supply trucks from crossing into Afghanistan and to issue an order demanding the US quit the remote Shamsi airbase, from which the US has operated some unmanned drone aircraft. At border crossings, hundreds of supply trucks are reportedly stranded by the ban, with drivers fearing insurgents will take the opportunity to attack if they are not allowed to move.
> 
> A spokesman for Nato's International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) said it was "highly likely" that aircraft which had been called into the area to provide "close air support" to troops on the ground was responsible for causing casualties among the Pakistani soldiers.
> 
> For their part, a statement by the Pakistani military claimed that it was they who were attacked first, forcing them to respond to Nato's "aggression with all available weapons".
> 
> According to Pakistani officials the 40 or so soldiers stationed at the outposts were asleep at the time of the attack. Government officials said the two border posts that were attacked had recently been established to try to stop insurgents who use bases in Afghanistan to attack Pakistan from crossing the border and launching attacks.
> 
> Afghan intelligence say the US-Afghan force was conducting operations against suspected Taliban training camps in the area.
> 
> The Obama administration promised a full investigation. Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, and Leon Panetta, the defence secretary, issued a joint statement saying they had each spoken to their Pakistani counterparts to express their condolences for the loss of life.
> 
> Pakistan was blunt that the killings represented a serious setback for the two countries' tattered alliance. The prime minister's office said the foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, told Clinton on Sunday that the attack was unacceptable, showed complete disregard for human life and had sparked rage within Pakistan.
> 
> The vagueness of the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is one potential, and relatively innocent, explanation for the incident. Drawn up by the British Raj in 1893, there is little agreement on where the so-called Durand Line actually falls, meaning troops from either side of the border can wander into the neighbouring country without realising it. One senior military official said that, in places, rival maps have discrepancies of "multiples of kilometres &#8211; sometimes as much as five kilometres".
> 
> Much of the fighting in Afghanistan is conducted by guerrillas based a short distance inside Pakistan. Nato forces are not allowed to cross the border and militants sometimes fire artillery and rockets across the line from locations close to Pakistani army posts.
> 
> And yet both sides have worked hard to try and minimise any confusion. The attack happened just a day after John Allen, the US commander of Nato forces in Afghanistan, met with Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, the Pakistani army chief, to discuss enhanced co-operation on the border.
> 
> But a more troubling explanation would be that insurgents in the area were operating under the nose of Pakistani security forces. Many Afghan officials believe Pakistan helps the Taliban with cross-border operations.
> 
> Edrees Momand of the Afghan Border Police said that a US-Afghan force in the area near the Pakistani outposts detained several militants on Saturday morning.
> 
> "I am not aware of the casualties on the other side of the border but those we have detained aren't Afghan Taliban," he said, implying they may have been Pakistani or other foreign national Taliban operating in Afghanistan.
> 
> Whatever the outcome of investigations, the incident is likely to do yet more damage to the critical relationship between the US and Pakistan. The alliance between the two countries has been repeatedly battered in the past year, first by the jailing of a CIA contractor and then by US special forces who raided deep inside Pakistani territory and killed Osama bin Laden.
> 
> More recently the US has accused Pakistan of backing a militant group who launched a 20-hour attack on the US embassy in Kabul.
> 
> Washington believes Pakistan continues to support the Taliban, a movement it publicly backed in the 1990s, in order to have influence in Afghanistan. But at the same time as supporting the enemies of the US, Pakistan remains crucial to the military mission in Afghanistan.
> 
> John Allen was quick to release a statement saying the incident had his "highest personal attention".
> 
> "My most sincere and personal heartfelt condolences go out to the families and loved ones of any members of Pakistan security forces who may have been killed or injured," he said.
> 
> Islamabad reacted with fury to the attack.
> 
> "This is an attack on Pakistan's sovereignty," said Pakistan's prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani. "We will not let any harm come to Pakistan's sovereignty and solidarity."
> 
> In a statement General Kayani promised "all necessary steps be undertaken for an effective response to this irresponsible act.
> 
> "A strong protest has been launched with Nato/Isaf in which it has been demanded that strong and urgent action be taken against those responsible for this aggression."
> 
> A cabinet committee convened by Gilani said the government would launch a complete review of its diplomatic, political, military and intelligence relationships with the US.
> 
> The vast bulk of Nato supplies arrive in Afghanistan by trucks that haul equipment up from the port of Karachi to the Khyber Pass, a key crossing point over the mountainous border into Afghanistan.
> 
> The shutting down of the border to Nato traffic has happened in the past during periods of Pakistani displeasure with Afghanistan and its foreign backers.
> 
> A similar incident last year in which two Pakistani troops were killed led to the closure of one of Nato's supply routes for ten days.
> 
> However, in recent years the alliance has opened up alternative supply routes through Central Asia, reducing its reliance on the route through Pakistan.



Self defence? Uh, I am sorry, but you dont fry a company HQ like this in self defence, all the while that HQ had small arms only. No Ack Ack, no anti-air units, no Air defence platoons..

What were they defending themselves against BTW? Taliban running , and they kill Pakistan army soldiers?


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## BATMAN

@ T-Rex...your post answer nothing?

Why does suspected Taliban positions were not shared with PA?

Doesn't those idiots habitual? and knows on border there can be Pakistan army posted upon their repeated requests?

Only president and PM of Pakistan holds the key in democratic rule protected by iftikhar ch.


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## GURU DUTT

No offence to any pakistani member & with my deepest condolences to the near& dears of the victims!!some time back on star movies i saw a movie named colours in that senior cop tells a story of two bull(father & son & their views about a bunch of cows)seems like america is doing the same here ?????only diff. is that instead of cows their target is haqqanee , talibaan& there supporters , again my post is not against pakistanies in general , Thanks .


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## Al Bhatti

Android K-Zero said:


> *The message is loud and clear from the All Parties Conference (APC), hosted by Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani
> 
> "Pakistan will protect its sovereignty at all costs. The declaration issued at the end of a marathon session, in which the leadership from all political parties sat with the army high command, is indicative of a strong political will of people of Pakistan that they stand united at a critical juncture and will spare no effort to defend the country s borders against any ill-conceived aggression".*



1) Pakistan's sovereignty is violated

2) a get together for these people takes place with condemnation condolences sent as official response. 

3) during the closed door meeting they secretly decide how much more to ask for their bank accounts.

4) public cools down after the hyper ego and all of it goes to vain, and the politicians have in the meantime get what they want from the USA.

5) repeat from point 1

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## K-Xeroid

Al Bhatti said:


> 1) Pakistan's sovereignty is violated
> 
> 2) a get together for these people takes place with condemnation condolences sent as official response.
> 
> 3) during the closed door meeting they secretly decide how much more to ask for their bank accounts.
> 
> 4) *public cools down after the hyper ego and all of it goes to vain, and the politicians have in the meantime get what they want from the USA.*5) repeat from point 1


Agree with you... But don't you think public have so many divided preceptions, Don't you think they are equally involve in repeating mistakes...?


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## BATMAN

Rig Vedic said:


> Indians are requested to confine their remarks to expressing sympathy, instead of arguing various petty points.
> 
> Pakistanis may also note that there could also be false-flaggers stirring up arguments and resentments purposely.



Yes... 'alwayas neutral' 'truth seker' etc.. all are bhartis false flaggers

Bhartis are habitual and simpleton Pakistanis shall always rethink while sympathizing with bhartis.

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## Omar1984

Don Jaguar said:


> Not only PPP majority politicians are american puppets.



You are right everyone is American puppet except PTI and maybe Jamat-e-Islami.

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## patna_ke_presley

Omar1984 said:


> You are right everyone is American puppet except PTI and maybe Jamat-e-Islami.



Lets see,"oont kis karwat Baithta hai."


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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan troop deaths 'tragic, unintended': NATO chief*

Updated 10 minutes ago

BRUSSELS: NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Sunday he had written to Pakistan premier Yousuf Raza Gilani to express regret over the "tragic, unintended" deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers in an airstrike.

"I have written to the Prime Minister of Pakistan to make it clear that the deaths of Pakistani personnel are as unacceptable and deplorable as the deaths of Afghan and international personnel," he said in a statement. "This was a tragic unintended incident."


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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan protests to Afghanistan over NATO attack*
Submitted 24 mins ago

Pakistan has protested to the government of Afghanistan over the attacks launched by NATO helicopters and aircrafts from Afghan soil into Pakistani territory.
According to foreign office statement issued here on Sunday, the protest underscores that the use of Afghan territory against Pakistan by NATO/ISAF is also a violation of ISAF's mandate for operations in Afghanistan.
The protest adds that Afghanistan should take necessary measures to ensure that such acts are not carried out from its territory against Pakistan.
It is pertinent to mention that at least 24 soldiers were killed and 16 other injured in the air strike launched by NATO in Mohmand agency, along Afghan border, on Saturday.
The political and military leadership in Pakistan has conveyed strong reaction over the incident. After the attack the government called in Defense&#8217;s Cabinet committee emergency meeting that ordered US to vacate Shamsi airbase and immediately suspended NATO supplies to Afghanistan via Pakistan.
Pakistan had also lodged protest with NATO headquarters in Brussels and Obama administration in Washington.
Pakistan protests to Afghanistan over NATO attack | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## K-Xeroid

karan.1970 said:


> A quick question.. Some days back 14 FC men were killed in Balochistan in a terror strike.. Were their last rites done in the similar manner with the kind of coverage and press time these 24 deaths are getting..? I ask since that thread didnt even cross 100 posts.. and I did not see any big ceremonial detail with the politicos attending and so on.....


Public responded same, but yea coverage and ceremonial detail with politics ........is a Question...


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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> I cant thank you for this picture, as it represents grief and makes my blood boil.
> Those responsible for this fiasco should pay, question is.. will they?



Our faith is, how it's written though it will be done.
My dear, sweet Lord works in mysterious ways.... the US SEAL team being one prime example. !!

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## Jango

karan.1970 said:


> A quick question.. Some days back 14 FC men were killed in Balochistan in a terror strike.. Were their last rites done in the similar manner with the kind of coverage and press time these 24 deaths are getting..? I ask since that thread didnt even cross 100 posts.. and I did not see any big ceremonial detail with the politicos attending and so on.....



Yup. They were given layed to rest with full honours, and some high level officials attended the ceremony. They were FC though, not full time regulars , keep in mind.


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## T-Rex

BATMAN said:


> @ T-Rex...your post answer nothing?
> 
> Why does suspected Taliban positions were not shared with PA?
> 
> Doesn't those idiots habitual? and knows on border there can be Pakistan army posted upon their repeated requests?
> 
> Only president and PM of Pakistan holds the key in democratic rule protected by iftikhar ch.


*
Look my intention was not to answer but to convey what the americans are saying. The other day one BBC documentary claimed that the americans had evidence of ISI secretly aiding the Afghan Talibans. Try to grasp the implication of such claims.*


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## BATMAN

Pk_Thunder said:


> Just heard Breaking news on Tv..Army Chief briefed the Defence committee on the Nato attack.Pakistan strongly condemned the attack and decided shamsi airbase to be vacated of US troops in 15 days. Also,Nato supply line is cut off.These are serious developments taking place.Its time to give them clear message that enough is enough.no further mess with Pakistan Forces!



I'm against blocking NATO supply... but i'm definitely not in favor of financing NATO supply from Pakistan's exchequer.

All motorways and highways build by Musharraf are damaged and need rebuilt. While, the cost of construction in civilian rule is always 4 times the military rule.

The bill of roads reconstruction shall be sent to both bharat and afghanistan, without any delay.

In any case if Pakistan's democrazy is angry than they shall proceed in diplomatic way... if matter is serious they always shall start with closing US embassy, why always use defence institution?


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## PakShaheen79

karan.1970 said:


> A quick question.. Some days back 14 FC men were killed in Balochistan in a terror strike.. Were their last rites done in the similar manner with the kind of coverage and press time these 24 deaths are getting..? I ask since that thread didnt even cross 100 posts.. and I did not see any big ceremonial detail with the politicos attending and so on.....



AS far as last rites are concerned, YES. I can grauntee that every single maytr of Pakistan armed forces gets similar funeral. Media coverage was not the same due to absence of any media outlet outside Quetta city. But how that is relevent here. It is an act of open aggression.


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## patna_ke_presley

BATMAN said:


> I'm against blocking NATO supply... but i'm definitely not in favor of financing NATO supply from Pakistan's exchequer.
> 
> All motorways and highways build by Musharraf are damaged and need rebuilt. While, the cost of construction in civilian rule is always 4 times the military rule.
> 
> The bill of roads reconstruction shall be sent to both bharat and afghanistan, without any delay.
> 
> In any case if Pakistan's democrazy is angry than they shall proceed in diplomatic way... if matter is serious they always shall start with closing US embassy, why always use defence institution?



Anyway, can you give further preparation from Pakistan to counter US backlashes after closing supply route and airbase.


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## PakShaheen79

Devil Soul said:


> *Pakistan troop deaths 'tragic, unintended': NATO chief*
> 
> Updated 10 minutes ago
> 
> BRUSSELS: NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Sunday he had written to Pakistan premier Yousuf Raza Gilani to express regret over the "tragic, unintended" deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers in an airstrike.
> 
> "I have written to the Prime Minister of Pakistan to make it clear that the deaths of Pakistani personnel are as unacceptable and deplorable as the deaths of Afghan and international personnel," he said in a statement. "This was a tragic unintended incident."



Unintended, My foot!!

These outpost was making sure that the explled TTP terrorists never get back inside Pakistan. NATO first vecatted there posts on the West bank of Kunar river providing a sanctury to the TTP terrorists and now they hit the check posts which were solely made to guard the border against these bastards.


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## Al Bhatti

Android K-Zero said:


> Agree with you... But don't you think public have so many divided preceptions, Don't you think they are equally involve in repeating mistakes...?



Yes they are the ones who allow the in-competent, non patriot, un-educated people to sit in the parliament and those in the parliament appoint a person of their own kind to lead the army.


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## BATMAN

GURU DUTT said:


> Dont mind brothers , but what had hapeened was not an isolated incedent & god forbidd wont be the last , as long as top Pak Militarry generals are willing to sell their souls to US & NATO , ordinarry pakistani will be used as a expendable cannon fodder .



Stupid it is soldiers who died!!! while protecting the borders of Pakistan,, where civilians woke up alive.

Even if some one is willing to sell its soul.. neither US and NATO shall entertain requests of murders.


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## PakShaheen79

T-Rex said:


> *
> Look my intention was not to answer but to convey what the americans are saying. The other day one BBC documentary claimed that the americans had evidence of ISI secretly aiding the Afghan Talibans. Try to grasp the implication of such claims.*



Sorry sir but Americans have been lots of thinks since the start of this war just to tame our emotions. This explanation of their's carries lots of question. There are mechanisms to avoid misunderstanding in conduct of operations still they attacked TWO Pakistani posts Not one. So, it is little difficult for the patriots here to buy. thanks.


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## Omar1984

patna_ke_presley said:


> Anyway, can you give further preparation from Pakistan to counter US backlashes after closing supply route and airbase.



It is our airbase and our sea ports, we are not violating international laws by not allowing U.S./NATO access to our airbase and our sea ports. Iran is also Afghanistan's immediate neighbor, let them ask Iran.

You worry about your country and leave us Pakistanis


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## Windjammer

GURU DUTT said:


> Dont mind brothers , but what had hapeened was not an isolated incedent & god forbidd wont be the last , as long as top Pak Militarry generals are willing to sell their souls to US & NATO , ordinarry pakistani will be used as a expendable cannon fodder .



Moun mein Ram Ram....baghal mein churi.....becoming too obvious now.!!

Please change the tone, since it's getting boring.

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## BATMAN

Windjammer said:


> Our faith is, how it's written though it will be done.
> My dear, sweet Lord works in mysterious ways.... the US SEAL team being one prime example. !!



And those being un-respectable to the shuhada and jawans of Pak fauj will burn in deepest hell.

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## BATMAN

patna_ke_presley said:


> Anyway, can you give further preparation from Pakistan to counter US backlashes after closing supply route and airbase.



No i cannot give and i'm against any military protest while ignoring the diplomatic protest.
I repeat if Pakistan is really angry than always have the right to exercise all diplomatic measures. 
I'm sorry to say that apparently Pakistan's civilian govt. have shown no responsibility and as usual foreign secretary is missing from the scene.


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## patna_ke_presley

Omar1984 said:


> It is our airbase and our sea ports, we are not violating international laws by not allowing U.S./NATO access to our airbase and our sea ports. Iran is also Afghanistan's immediate neighbor, let them ask Iran.
> 
> You worry about our country and leave us Pakistanis



Yes, it is your territory but world works according to self interest. Like half of Pakistan export goes to NATO countries, they control IMF/WB/ADB. They may accuse Pakistan of something and can put trade embargo or sanctions. So, Pakistan should be prepared for worst time and some measures should be taken, like Iranians are always prepared from their worst times. so, do Pakistan have such blueprint for worst time.


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## K-Xeroid

Al Bhatti said:


> Yes they are the ones who allow the in-competent, non patriot, un-educated people to sit in the parliament and those in the parliament appoint a person of their own kind to lead the army.


 in-competent, non patriot, and un educated public having division in them will always appoint there type of person to rule them... These sacrifies of soldiers got no value among our respectable public and parlimentarians. thats wat i observed.


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## Safriz

to all the lolly sucking children on this thread..please realise that we are greived and we are sad.
take your childish games elsewhere.


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## BATMAN

salmakh84 said:


> Yeah right, because the jawans were pious Muslims serving Allah in the war on terror? Lols



No doubt they are serving Allah... by laying their lives and leaving their homes for guarding homeland of Muslims.

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## salmakh84

Bottom line, isaf. And NATO still have many bases apart from shamsi in Pakistan. When will those get free? When the Americans murder a general?

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## fd24

Devil Soul said:


> Pakistani soldiers carry the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a NATO strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. &#8211; AFP Photo



This is indeed the saddest picture ever. May their souls rest in peace now. I dont want to point out the emotions but one must have heart ache for the families and loved ones left behind.
I expect the Zionists to behave like jaanwar and have an excuse or reason ready in their "book of excuses for being scum" - its a best seller in the west. What i dont expect is people like VCheng putting up posts showing more loyalty to America than Americans. I object that he asks me and my fellow Pakistanis to not be emotional or show anger when i see soldiers that have been simply slaughtered. I object 1 or 2 Indians posting stuff suggesting that are emotions are OTT. Guys if you thing our feelings and emotions are OTT then thats a matter for you. At least have the dignity and respect for the lost ones and refrain from posting.

I will say 1 thing for the future. I know for a fact this will bring our politicians and army closer together. The rift their may have been will be put to 1 side and the common enemy will be addressed. I am not over reacting by saying that this act will be the one that broke the camels back. By this i mean Pakistan will not sit back and take this like a sponge and a response in every capacity will without doubt be undertaken. The muted response from Nato and the USA is almost speaking volumes as they know they will now have to deal with Pakistan retaliation. What this will be is a matter is for all of us to predict - whatever it is i will back my country and as a nation we will make sure these lives that were taken will never be forgotten.

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## Patriot

Devil Soul said:


> Pakistani soldiers carry the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a NATO strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011.  AFP Photo


My salute to these brave soldiers - May their soul rest in piece.Pakistan will avenge this inshallah.

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## salmakh84

Sir you are highly mistaken. Our general and politicians will remain the same corrupt slaves theyalways have been. What u r seeing is temporary to gain voter/ public sympathy. Chor gain sub 




superkaif said:


> This is indeed the saddest picture ever. May their souls rest in peace now. I dont want to point out the emotions but one must have heart ache for the families and loved ones left behind.
> I expect the Zionists to behave like jaanwar and have an excuse or reason ready in their "book of excuses for being scum" - its a best seller in the west. What i dont expect is people like VCheng putting up posts showing more loyalty to America than Americans. I object that he asks me and my fellow Pakistanis to not be emotional or show anger when i see soldiers that have been simply slaughtered. I object 1 or 2 Indians posting stuff suggesting that are emotions are OTT. Guys if you thing our feelings and emotions are OTT then thats a matter for you. At least have the dignity and respect for the lost ones and refrain from posting.
> 
> I will say 1 thing for the future. I know for a fact this will bring our politicians and army closer together. The rift their may have been will be put to 1 side and the common enemy will be addressed. I am not over reacting ny saying that this act will be the one that broke the camels back. By this i mean Pakistan will not sit back and take this like a sponge and a response in every capacity will without doubt be undertaken. The muted response from Nato and the USA is almost speaking volumes as they know they will now have to deal with Pakistan retaliation. What this will be is a matter is for all of us to predict - whatever it is i will back my country and as a nation we will make sure these lives that were taken will never be forgotten.


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## Safriz

a cunning and demeaning statement of condolence by NATO cheif.
Pakistan troop deaths &#8216;tragic, unintended&#8217;: Nato chief | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


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## BATMAN

I don't think mere statements from foreign office are trust worthy, with given history of Gilani saying in US embassy that he issue protesting remarks in assembly for the sake of local consumption and while ghadari approaching ISAF generals to counter Pak army.


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## longbrained

*Every time they kill innocents, it is unintended. When they go in and kill millions of innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam etc it is unintended. But when any developing country just stands up and defends itself against their aggressions then they are terrorists. Am I missing something here: *

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## Safriz

says the death of Pakistani soldiers in an "unintended accident" and no apologies offered..instead an accusative statement "pskistani soldiers death is as condemnable as the death of afghan and international personnel" get it?

shame on pakistan if they still keep cooperating with NATO in any way.


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## SinoChallenger

Bl[i]tZ;2329280 said:


> I agree but this argument fails if US leaves behind 20-30k troops with SF, drones, CAS aircraft etc.
> 
> We'll start withdrawing in 2012, transitioning completely to Afghans by 2014 is a political stunt by Pres Obama for 2012 elections.
> 
> US will transition from a CI to CT strategy by reducing its footprint and handing over the win hearts and minds strategy to the Afghans.
> 
> US is here to stay - it needs to work towards weaning away the erstwhile Soviet Union states away from Russia.


That is totally correct. Which is why Russia and China need to work together to encircle and destroy US presence in Afghanistan. We're not just going to let them bully their way into global conquest.



Nitin Goyal said:


> Without them joining SCO you can still provide them anti ship missiles.


Everything needs to work in tandem. Cutting off transit through both southern and northern routes. Arms supply. Political support. Military advisers. It would be similar to the way China and USSR supported North Vietnam reunify with South Vietnam. In fact, you could consider Afghanistan to be "north-western Pakistan" needing to be reunified and rid of western imperialist presence.

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## Fracker

I was expecting a better response from PA, GoP and other so called political parties (including PTI) and lastly was expecting much better response from the people of pakistan, People of Pakistan should have come on the road throughout the whole country and should have marched to all parliaments, to show their strength to the WORLD, together and peacefully

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## Bl[i]tZ

NATO chief: deaths of Pakistan soldiers was 'unintended incident'






NATO chief: deaths of Pakistan soldiers was 'unintended incident' | World | Deutsche Welle | 27.11.2011

It seems - No apology for the op, loss of life is regrettable.


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## Abingdonboy

The straw that broke the camel's back? Incident, after after incident by US- drones, OBL etc and THIS is a breach of sovereignty?!! All hype, relations ad normal within the week. Unfortunately for PK, they have blown a lot of hot air, overreacted and then eventually backed down many times in the past. This time will be no different.


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## GURU DUTT

SinoChallenger said:


> That's why China and Russia need to bring Pakistan formally into SCO. China can supply Pakistan with anti-ship missiles like YJ-83 to deal with US aggression in the Arabian Sea.
> 
> Pakistan will also need advanced surface-to-air missiles like HQ-9 to shoot down US transports trying to fly to Afghanistan without authorization.



My freind so generous of china but here we are talking about *will* not will have?????????my dear what happened was sad but the crimminal thing is the response of GOP , ok for a minute imagine if the same thing would have happenned with China what would be your response???Did you got my point???Thanks .


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## Bl[i]tZ

Anybody willing to take a guess on how soon will the relations be normalized?

My guess is within 15 days everything will be hunky dorey.


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## VSS

First time in history, for Pakistan's army.. eastern border is safer than western border.

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## Devil Soul

Brit Army Cricket team have arrived in PAK to play cricket match with PAK Army Cricket team, but PAK Army have refused to play any cricket match with them..... EXPRESSNEWS


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## Tshering22

The last time I heard about this base, wasn't it under UAEAF command or something? Sorry but who is exactly commanding the base right now? Kinda confusing.


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## Abhishek_

to PK members, I've come across conflicting information that shamsi airbase is actually under control of Oman/UAE? can someone shed some more light on this matter.


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## Safriz

Bl[i]tZ;2330973 said:


> NATO chief: deaths of Pakistan soldiers was 'unintended incident'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NATO chief: deaths of Pakistan soldiers was 'unintended incident' | World | Deutsche Welle | 27.11.2011
> 
> It seems - No apology for the op, loss of life is regrettable.


 
thae thing is that such a mass murder of pakistani nationals and such stubborn remorseless condolence will help taliban in finding many more determined young men ho ill take it upon themselves to teach NATO a lesson.
so who is losing here?


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## Tshering22

safriz said:


> thae thing is that such a mass murder of pakistani nationals and such stubborn remorseless condolence will help taliban in finding many more determined young men ho ill take it upon themselves to teach NATO a lesson.
> so who is losing here?



But the NATO seems to be thinking otherwise now. They're more or less now coming to a conclusion that Taliban's demise is only possible by attacking you guys. I mean come on..."unintended attack"? They say that for almost every attack that happens. So what is this? Rogue regional commanders in NATO? Renegade pilots? I doubt NATO is so indisciplined. 

They perhaps have come to the conclusion that you are the reason for Taliban's continued survival hence to remove them, they will have to target you. 

The reason: No matter whatever they do even without harming Pakistanis (long before drone attacks started), they always get under attack by Talibunnies. So this seems to be a new experiment since it cannot get any worse than this.

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## Safriz

^^^that will be better as the people of pakistan will finally see their real enemy.and unite....
euro zone and USA Economy are is at its worse and about to fall apart...it will be interesting to see how many more wars they can start....Despite failing to conclude.any of them.


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## Windjammer

Tshering22 said:


> Stay barely 200 Km away from it; been there as late as last month. Nothing happened. Booya!
> 
> The topic is not commies, it is 28 Pakistani soldiers killed by a helicopter attack from across the border. What's the special digress for?



And FATA is not exactly cut off from the rest of the country either.!!

The topic is indeed Martyrdom of our brave soldiers, and we are indeed mourning their unlawful death but when some frivolous characters start placing bets on Pak/US relations.....some form of reply is therefore has to be in place.


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## SinoChallenger

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Not directly, but any nuclear nation which has a problem with the US can simply "donate" a nuke to any anti-US network. It's one of America's biggest fears actually, and one of the biggest reasons why they don't invade countries with nukes.
> 
> Also:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-...-class-submarines-china-2-type-054a-ffgs.html
> 
> These Qing-class submarines that Pakistan is acquiring, can launch nuclear-tipped cruise missiles with a range of several thousand kilometres.


Pakistan does not have miniaturization technology necessary to put a nuclear warhead on a cruise missile.


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## moha199

karan.1970 said:


> A quick question.. Some days back 14 FC men were killed in Balochistan in a terror strike.. Were their last rites done in the similar manner with the kind of coverage and press time these 24 deaths are getting..? I ask since that thread didnt even cross 100 posts.. and I did not see any big ceremonial detail with the politicos attending and so on.....


 let me give you counter question which will give you answer as well, did indian had the same coverage and response to PUNU attack in 2010? 9 confirmed dead, 45 injured in blast at Pune bakery - Times Of India 
Feb 14, 2010, 12.00am IST
PUNE: Terror struck Pune tonight as a powerful bomb ripped apart a popular bakery near a Jewish prayer house, killing nine people, including five women and a foreigner, and injuring 45 in the first major attack since 26/11 carnage.
It appears to be a bomb blast: Pune Police - Video | The Times of India

The improvised explosive device, kept in an unattended packet outside the kitchen of the German bakery, exploded at around 7.30 pm when a waiter attempted to open it. 

*See the difference was between 26/11 and Punu attack that 26/11 was supposedly Pakistani based attack where as Punu is internal terrorism * same goes to Terrorist attack from Pakistani are different and attack by NATO is different! i hope it doesn't confuse you now

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## idune

Tshering22 said:


> But the NATO seems to be thinking otherwise now. They're more or less now coming to a conclusion that Taliban's demise is only possible by attacking you guys. I mean come on..."unintended attack"? They say that for almost every attack that happens. So what is this? Rogue regional commanders in NATO? Renegade pilots? I doubt NATO is so indisciplined.
> 
> They perhaps have come to the conclusion that you are the reason for Taliban's continued survival hence to remove them, they will have to target you.
> 
> The reason: No matter whatever they do even without harming Pakistanis (long before drone attacks started), they always get under attack by Talibunnies. So this seems to be a new experiment since it cannot get any worse than this.



Looks like indian intentions is packaged as view of NATO. Its too bad indias even after so many years of independence can not talk or form an opinion without hiding behind someone; in this case US/NATO. 

But ultimately it really does not matter what NATO or US says, they have prepared these statements before executing this killing.

What matter now is, if Pakistani establishment accepts these US/NATO lie and deceptions or they reject it.


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## vtnsx

nuclearpak said:


> This is F******* ridiculous, now when you have a GPS and all those fancy gadgets the US helis have, it is not possible to have been mistaken. Especially with NVG. Had it been some artillery shelling, would have been understandable, but this is outrageous.
> 
> This is an all out act of war.
> 
> Blocking the supply line is the least we could do.



It's not ridiculous bro, Americans have killed 4 Canadians by air strike. Canadians shouldn't even volunteer for this nonsense war.


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## BATMAN

safriz said:


> ^^^that will be better as the people of pakistan will finally see their real enemy.and unite....
> euro zone and USA Economy are is at its worse and about to fall apart...it will be interesting to see how many more wars they can start....Despite failing to conclude.any of them.





safriz said:


> thae thing is that such a mass murder of pakistani nationals and such stubborn remorseless condolence will help taliban in finding many more determined young men ho ill take it upon themselves to teach NATO a lesson.
> so who is losing here?



Non-sense... how many times have you seen it young men taking upon themself?

If Pakistan army is not safe than no individual or group of individuals can do any thing... in today's economic situation no one is willing to spend a penny on any nonsense and you are talking of individuals running wars?

To be at war is no joke! one need advance weapons, finances to buy them and run operations in co-ordinates fashion and most of above education, intelligence ... which need decades to establish.

If you see a name in war for longer than few weeks, than assume some bank is sponsoring it via some state and professionals are fully involved.

Pakistan is broke state and so is the common man only TTP have money but than it is only Pakistan at loss.


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## Safriz

so you are saying that this mass murder of pakistanis will not infuriate people?
go buy a tele and watch news....already angry protests are being carried out all along the country.


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

Tshering22 said:


> But the NATO seems to be thinking otherwise now. They're more or less now coming to a conclusion that Taliban's demise is only possible by attacking you guys. I mean come on..."unintended attack"? They say that for almost every attack that happens. So what is this? Rogue regional commanders in NATO? Renegade pilots? I doubt NATO is so indisciplined.
> 
> They perhaps have come to the conclusion that you are the reason for Taliban's continued survival hence to remove them, they will have to target you.
> 
> The reason: No matter whatever they do even without harming Pakistanis (long before drone attacks started), they always get under attack by Talibunnies. So this seems to be a new experiment since it cannot get any worse than this.


you should be banned for saying something as stupid at this. you have any proof these troops where there to help the taliban? seriously stop making these retard claims they wont get you anywhere

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## regular

VCheng said:


> So is Pakistan prepared economically for the response that will surely follow a prolonged blockade?


I guess we need an economic sanction on us by the US/NATO to wake us up otherwise we all gonna face the same fate like the jawans within these too unfortunate posts. Definitely we/Awamm/public will get killed mercilessly while asleep by these brutal butchers/mercineries.......


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## Safriz

regular said:


> I guess we need an economic sanction on us by the US/NATO to wake us up otherwise we all gonna face the same fate like the jawans within these too unfortunate posts. Definitely we/Awamm/public will get killed mercilessly while asleep by these brutal butchers/mercineries.......


 
an economic blockade will end pakistans reliance on foreign aid and finally pakistan will have a home grown very own economy.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

VCheng said:


> So is Pakistan prepared economically for the response that will surely follow a prolonged blockade?



We will survive longer if we can get rid of this War of America....


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## BATMAN

safriz said:


> so you are saying that this mass murder of pakistanis will not infuriate people?
> go buy a tele and watch news....already angry protests are being carried out all along the country.



Mass murder of Pakistan soldiers has been happening since last 4 years now.
People can't do any thing... other than burnning some rubber and wood.
Assembly members would pass some statement for the record and comes the next day.
People may not get angry if establishment do his part and show some comparable response.


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## patna_ke_presley

safriz said:


> er...did pakistan ever had an economy?
> ours is not the capitalist system..people and businesses sustain themselves out of own effort and resources without expecting anything from government..and thats way more robust than the caoitalist economy who is dependent on banks.
> FYI NATO did not win Libya....the libyan traitors did...
> This will not be the situation in pakistan...if they ever attack pakistan they will find a nation united againt them and no traitors.



They started a third front in Libya which means US don't care to spend money on starting new front(my point is not about Gadaffi or anti-Gadaffis). Anyway, you are belittling the economic component and instead talking with "Garam Khoon" without thinking of dealing with situation wisely.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

patna_ke_presley said:


> They started a third front in Libya which means US don't care to spend money on starting new front(my point is not about Gadaffi or anti-Gadaffis). Anyway, you are belittling the economic component and instead talking with "Garam Khoon" without thinking of *dealing with situation wisely*.



We tried to deal with situation wisely; that is *DIPLOMATIC means*; but these US/NATO forces are traitors. Now it is important that they must receive a strong message!


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## W.11

JonAsad said:


> Ask the soldiers- ask any of the dead soldiers if you can-
> Did they sign up to die like this?- Like sitting ducks?-
> Is this the Shahadat they always wanted?-
> I would not want to die like this- No- I dont even want a Shahadat like this- without firing a bullet-
> 
> RIP-



or did we pakistanis born to ultimately die in a drone attack, how ironic


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## patna_ke_presley

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> We tried to deal with situation wisely; that is *DIPLOMATIC means*; but these US/NATO forces are traitors. Now it is important that they must receive a strong message!



That's why I am asking, has Pakistan prepared itself for worst. Like you still get large loans from IMF/World Bank/ADB, do Pakistan made arrangement to stay strong when they may be blocked or where will Pakistan get the alternate market if there would be some economic embargo as your 50% goods still go to NATO countries.


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## Albatross

I have been using this site for years to update myself regarding defence matters and other core issues..But such brutal killing of our soldiers by socalled friends left me with no option but to join and express myself as I feel its high time for us to be united and strong and rethink our strategy..

Instead of blindly abusing NATO and US we need to act rationally ..do some research and ask Allah to give us guidance I would like to quote a lil example for the refference..how did the world war 2 started ..though on the surface it was against the hitler and his crimes against humanity..but how many of you know that he was financed by secret financers from united states including the grandfather of last US president bush..he was even arrested in 1944 and the news can be viewed in newyork times then edition..deep down the both sides in that war were funded by the same party..hitler was motivated by jews indirectly and the relations between bush family and elite jews is no more a secret..I cant go in all the gory details but hint is enough for wise people..

One more example is killing of john f kennedy after he tried to take american federal reserve under government wings by signing an exective order..For people who doesnt know its been over two centuries that american banking system is under jewish control..And whosoever tried to come in the way was eliminated instantly..

Point here is there are people in this world who has no value for human life and has means and ways to make them fight and kill oneanother..Nato would never like to create such a situation with pakistan especially when relationship was about to improve after months of chaos..If somehow this incident can be investigated completely it will lead to some invisible hands which guided atleast one or two member in that mission which deliberately killed our soldiers to achieve their target which was to create this gap b/w us and nato and bring us to a point where there is abuse and mistrust..A normal american and pakistani is busy in arranging bread and butter for his family but what has happened that now the common man on both sides hate eachother and blame other side for their miseries..Its like an evil web that has been knitted so cleverly that we play in their hands like lil kittens...
bottom line is this is high time for us to devise ways to be independent in the true sense of the word and get out of this american,inidian and jewish hatred and goafter those handful of illminded people who has carefully created this chaos and bloodshed throughout the globe..And Allah subhan tallah will guide us through only if our niyat and our souls are pure...Read between lines my friends and thats the only way out and stop reacting emotionally..

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## Albatross

I have been using this site for years to update myself regarding defence matters and other core issues..But such brutal killing of our soldiers by socalled friends left me with no option but to join and express myself as I feel its high time for us to be united and strong and rethink our strategy..

Instead of blindly abusing NATO and US we need to act rationally ..do some research and ask Allah to give us guidance I would like to quote a lil example for the refference..how did the world war 2 started ..though on the surface it was against the hitler and his crimes against humanity..but how many of you know that he was financed by secret financers from united states including the grandfather of last US president bush..he was even arrested in 1944 and the news can be viewed in newyork times then edition..deep down the both sides in that war were funded by the same party..hitler was motivated by jews indirectly and the relations between bush family and elite jews is no more a secret..I cant go in all the gory details but hint is enough for wise people..

One more example is killing of john f kennedy after he tried to take american federal reserve under government wings by signing an exective order..For people who doesnt know its been over two centuries that american banking system is under jewish control..And whosoever tried to come in the way was eliminated instantly..

Point here is there are people in this world who has no value for human life and has means and ways to make them fight and kill oneanother..Nato would never like to create such a situation with pakistan especially when relationship was about to improve after months of chaos..If somehow this incident can be investigated completely it will lead to some invisible hands which guided atleast one or two member in that mission which deliberately killed our soldiers to achieve their target which was to create this gap b/w us and nato and bring us to a point where there is abuse and mistrust..A normal american and pakistani is busy in arranging bread and butter for his family but what has happened that now the common man on both sides hate eachother and blame other side for their miseries..Its like an evil web that has been knitted so cleverly that we play in their hands like lil kittens...
bottom line is this is high time for us to devise ways to be independent in the true sense of the word and get out of this american,inidian and jewish hatred and goafter those handful of illminded people who has carefully created this chaos and bloodshed throughout the globe..And Allah subhan tallah will guide us through only if our niyat and our souls are pure...Read between lines my friends and thats the only way out and stop reacting emotionally..


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## PakShaheen79

patna_ke_presley said:


> They started a third front in Libya which means US don't care to spend money on starting new front(my point is not about Gadaffi or anti-Gadaffis). Anyway, you are belittling the economic component and instead talking with "Garam Khoon" without thinking of dealing with situation wisely.



And how should be that, in your opinion. Accepting NATO/US version of incident?? Sorry, Sir. This is not going to happen. Then Government and Army both are under tremendous pressure. First time, ISPR issued statement before NATO/ISAF saying that the excuse of chase of militants would be not acceptable and i think this was due to harsh lesson learned during OBL episode when PA was left in complete embarrassment by the Yankis by not telling us about their operation.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

patna_ke_presley said:


> That's why I am asking, has Pakistan prepared itself for worst. Like you still get large loans from IMF/World Bank/ADB, do Pakistan made arrangement to stay strong when they may be blocked or where will Pakistan get the alternate market if there would be some economic embargo as your 50% goods still go to NATO countries.



we were under sanctions by US before and we were not in that bad condition at that time then in which we are now...


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## Hafizzz

Pakistan asks US to vacate Shamsi airbase within 15 days
Pakistan asks US to vacate Shamsi airbase within 15 days - World - DNA

Pakistan today asked the US to vacate an airbase that has reportedly been used by American drones and closed NATO supply routes in response to a cross-border air strike by the coalition aircraft that killed 28 Pakistani soldiers.

The Pakistan government framed its response to the NATO air strike during an emergency meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet chaired by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani this evening.

The meeting was attended by the three service chiefs, including army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

The cabinet committee decided to "close with immediate effect the NATO/ISAF logistics supply lines" and asked the "US to vacate the Shamsi airbase within 15 days," said a statement issued by the Prime Minister's House.

The move came hours after NATO helicopters and fighter jets fired at two border posts in Mohmand tribal region at 2 am.

Officials were quoted by the media as saying that 28 soldiers, including a major and a captain, were killed and 15 more injured in the air strike.

A statement issued by the army put the death toll at 24.

Kayani strongly condemned "NATO/ISAF&#8217;s blatant and unacceptable act" and issued orders for taking all necessary steps for "an effective response to this irresponsible act."

The Defence Committee of the Cabinet "reiterated the resolve of the Pakistani people and armed forces to safeguard Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity at all costs,"e official statement said.

Till recently, Pakistani supply routes were used to transport a majority of supplies for US and allied forces in Afghanistan.

Following a wave of attacks on supply vehicles and strained relations with Pakistan, the US has stepped up the use of alternative routes in Central Asian countries.

However, hundreds of NATO tankers and supply vehicles continued to cross over into Afghanistan from southwest and northwest Pakistan every day.

Pakistan had last asked the US to vacate the Shamsi airbase in June.

Numerous reports have said the CIA operates its unmanned spy planes from the airbase in Balochistan province, 900 km from Islamabad. Images of US Predator drones at the airbase have been published by Google Earth.

Secret American diplomatic cables leaked by WikiLeaks have suggested that the United Arab Emirates, which has controlled Shamsi airbase since the 1990s, has allowed the US to use it for its drone flights.

The statement issued after the meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet noted that the decision to close NATO supply routes and to ask the US to vacate Shamsi airbase had been taken in line with a resolution adopted at a joint session of parliament that was held in the wake of the American raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May.

The statement said Prime Minister Gilani would take "parliament into confidence on the whole range of measures regarding matters relating to Pakistan&#8217;s future cooperation with US/NATO/ISAF in the near future."

The cabinet committee strongly condemned the attack by NATO and ISAF aircraft on the Pakistani border posts and expressed sympathies and condolences to the families of the dead soldiers.

Pakistan also lodged strong protests with the US and at NATO headquarters in Brussels, "conveying in the strongest possible terms Pakistan's condemnation of these attacks which constituted breach of sovereignty, were violative of international law and had gravely dented the fundamental basis of Pakistan&#8217;s cooperation with NATO/ISAF against militancy and terror."

The Defence Committee of the Cabinet contended the air strike had violated the mandate of NATO and ISAF, which was confined to Afghanistan.

"Pakistan had clearly conveyed to US/NATO/ISAF its red lines which constituted an integral element of Pakistan&#8217;s cooperation that was based on a partnership approach," the statement said.

"The attack on Pakistan Army border posts is totally unacceptable and warrants an effective national response," the committee said.

The DCC further decided that the government would "revisit and undertake a complete review of all programmes, activities and cooperative arrangements with US/NATO/ISAF, including diplomatic, political, military and intelligence cooperation," the statement said.

In Islamabad, Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir called in US Ambassador Cameron Munter to lodge a "strong protest on the unprovoked NATO/ISAF attack," the Foreign Office said.

Bashir told the US envoy that the attack had "deeply incensed the government and the people of Pakistan."

In a statement issued by the US Embassy, Ambassador Munter said,"I regret the loss of life of any Pakistani servicemen, and pledge that the United States will work closely with Pakistan to investigate this incident."


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## khanz4996

Look boss we dont care if retalliation starts a world war or universal war we dont care we need blood for blood bullet for bullet.how many of us they have killed already in last 10 years ?more then a 1.5 million in iraq more then 1 million in afghanistan and around 100000 in pakistan libya is i dont know how much syria is up on the menu iran is on the menu so what else can a world war do kill alot of people?its already happening but my heart is bleeding for our soliders who died a death of rats sleeping in their beds not got a chance to fight because they are not allowed to fight due to the dollars which kiyani and zardari and mussharaf stuffing up their a$$es pakistan is being run by CIA agents like haqqani who sold his country and this shameless zardari is keeping him in president house i bet one day americans and nato will come in stealth helicopters and take our nuclear assests and these traitors will say my radars were catching **** signals i dont know what to do but i have 1 THING TO SAY AND THIS IS MY PROMISE IF ANYONE TAKES OUR NUCLEAR ASSEST I WILL KILL THESE 3 BASTARDS THATS KIYANI ZARDARI AND GIILANI OR DIE TRYING.THATS MY PROMISE TO MY LORD ALLAH.


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## Al Bhatti

*UAE*

UAE leadership kept the national interest above their part of co-operating with the NATO/ISAF, and when they saw their national interests (increase in flight rights of the two govt. carriers) are not being answered they gave them the ultimatum to leave the camp. This was their reply to keep natioanl intrests first. They did not go back with their decision and the Canadians had to leave within the said deadline. 

*Pakistan*

Our soldiers and civilians are being killed and sovereignty is trespassed daily and what is our national response? What the military and civilian leadership agree for is asking *again* to vacate the Shamsi base and blocking NATO supplies. This reply of Pakistan is peanut compared to what UAE did with Canadians for not allowing more flight rights in Canada.

The Canadian base in UAE was bigger than shamsi air base and important to Canadian military but they were kicked out. Is Shamsi base relevant to US? UAE leadership got balls and Pakistani leadership__?

*UAE
*
Furthermore (till this day) they stopped issuing visa on arrival to them and made them to get visa prior to leaving Canada.

*Pakistan
*
US nationals are roaming free in Pakistan. Not only that they kill anyone they want (Raymond Davis and many other cases)

Salute to UAE for keeping it's national interests first and foremost. Forty years of UAE is far far better than 60+ years of Pakistan.

No need to celebrate independence day when Pakistan's sovereignty is trespassed daily, Why do we celebrate independence day?

Shame on Pakistani Generals and Politicians for keeping the bank accounts above Pakistan.

----

Timeline

05/01/2011
Dan McTeague, the Liberal Party critic on Foreign and Consular Affairs, said that the blame for the UAE&#8217;s imposition of visas for all Canadian visitors lies squarely with Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

02/01/2011
UAE&#8217;s Ambassador to Canada, Mohammad Abdullah Al Ghafli, has been unable to get a face-to-face meeting for the past three months with Canada&#8217;s Foreign Affairs Minister, Lawrence Cannon.

01/01/2011
Calgary Herald launches a bitter and vitriolic attack on the UAE for its decision to impose visit visa regulations on Canadians.

27/11/2010
UAE&#8217;s Minister of Economy Sultan Bin Saeed Al Mansouri says that Canada need not fear job losses if it grants UAE airlines additional flights because this could contribute $60 million annually to the Canadian economy.

18/11/2010
Canadian Defence Minister Peter MacKay says that the UAE should have been granted more routes for its national carriers in exchange for use of military base.

09/11/2010
UAE imposes new visa regulations on Canadian citizens who come to the UAE for business. As of January 2, Canadian citizens who wish to visit the UAE will have to obtain a pre-arranged visa.

14/10/2010
Official source announces UAE lobbied against Canada&#8217;s bid to win a seat on the United Nations Security Council because of its anti-Arab policies.

11/10/2010
Canadians barred from military base, a crucial link in the supply line for its mission in Afghanistan.

10/10/2010
UAE is disappointed that despite intensive negotiations over the last five years the UAE and Canada have been unable to arrive at an agreement on expanding the number of flights between the two countries.


----

The UAE-Canadian relations have reached their lowest point ever after Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper launched a vitriolic attack on the UAE few days ago.

The UAE deserves an apology from the Canadian Prime Minister, senior UAE officials say.

Gulf News has learnt the UAE officials also expressed their disappointment and anger with Canada in strong diplomatic terms after it was reported that Harper likened the UAE's introduction of visas for Canadians and its ending of a lease arrangement at Camp Mirage for Canadian forces fighting in Afghanistan to blackmail.

Harper also hinted that the UAE was soft on terrorism, a claim that has infuriated UAE officials at all levels.

The central issue is a request from Emirates and Etihad for more landing slots and more Canadian destinations. That request has gone unanswered for four years, and both UAE airlines are limited to just three slots each per week in Toronto. The airlines would like more access plus be able to fly to Montreal, Calgary and Vancouver.

UAE furious

Gulf News has learnt that the UAE government is furious over Harper's attack and relations between two nations are extremely strained.

Gulf News can report that the UAE government is seething that it has been perceived as kicking Canada out of Camp Mirage near Dubai.

The reality is that Canadian forces and the UAE government has signed a memorandum of understanding which ran out in June, allowing Canada free access to the logistics facility at the base. When the MoU ran out, UAE officials extended it by three months to September. Canada was then given a one-month's grace period to leave the base, which it did.

Gulf News has also learnt that an incident in November, in which Canada's Defence Minister, Peter MacKay, was refused permission to land in Dubai arose because Canada had failed to comply with diplomatic protocols.

As the Canadians were no longer operating a military base in the UAE, convention dictates that a military aircraft would require pre-authorisation to land.

When the request for pre-authorisation did not arrive, UAE officials told MacKay that he would be unable to land. That incident was portrayed in Canada's media as the UAE kicking MacKay out.

What is particularly hurtful, senior UAE officials say, is that hundreds of injured Canadian soldiers have been treated free of charge at UAE military hospital facilities. Severely wounded soldiers are stabilised at the military medical facilities before being reunited with their families in Canada.

Gulf News has also learnt that the UAE played a key role in assisting Canada's efforts to free three hostages taken in Baghdad. Without the UAE's help, the three would likely have been killed.

UAE government officials are at a loss as to why its efforts in assisting Canada in this case and also by providing medical and logistical support to Canadian troops are being disregarded and forgotten.

Gulf News has also learnt that the request for more landing slots has been met with complete derision as Ottawa is determined to protect its legacy carrier, Air Canada.

This writer can report that Canadian officials did offer to increase the number of flights from three to four, but that increase was tied to restricting the size of plane, meaning, in effect, an overall reduction in the number of seats available.

With cargo demand and seat loads at levels reaching 100 per cent capacity, the need for more flights is pressing.

Offence

Gulf News has learnt that UAE officials take offence at the assertion that more flights will hit jobs of Canadian employees.

"The Emirates and Etihad flights keep many people employed in Toronto," one senior official told Gulf News.

"When the Emirates Airbus A380 touched down, it was a Canadian pilot at the controls. The first Etihad flight was crewed by Canadians. The UAE airlines are providing jobs for skilled Canadians and others from all around the world. Who is buying the houses in Emirates Springs, it's Emirates' and Etihad's employees from around the world."

In two years since arriving in Ottawa, the UAE's Ambassador, Mohammad Abdullah Al Ghafli, has yet to meet with Canada's Foreign Affair's Minister, Lawrence Cannon.

The irony is that Al Ghafli's office is just 200 metres from Cannon's office building in Ottawa.

"Cannon only meets with a select group of ambassadors," a senior official told Gulf News.

UAE officials believe that the relationship has been poisoned by Harper's personal views, his vindictiveness and his inability to reach out to a long-standing ally in the Middle East.

"It will take at least ten years for the relationship to be rebuilt," one senior official told Gulf News.

In terms of the visa requirements, Canadians are now required to obtain a visit visa before entering the UAE.

It is, however, much more difficult for UAE nationals to obtain a Canadian visa.

"They even want to know the name of your grandmother," one official said.

"It takes weeks for a Canadian visa to be processed. Trust me, UAE nationals are not applying for visas to live in Canada. They simply want to come for business."

Rejection

Gulf News can report that even if UAE nationals obtain a visit visa, they are subject to rejection at Canadian entry points. In the past two years, three UAE nationals have been turned back by immigration staff even though their visas were in order.

This writer has also learnt that UAE officials are frustrated with Ottawa's inaction on helping take action against Canadian absconders from the UAE who owe UAE banks millions of dirhams, which now cannot be collected.

&#8216;No way to treat allies&#8217;

In an interview on Friday with Canadian news agency QMI, Canadian Prime Minister Harper said: "That's not how you treat allies, and I think [this] tells us you better pick your friends pretty carefully in the future. I could never see [Canada] treating an ally like that.

"Could you imagine if after 9/11 the Americans had come to the Canadian government and said &#8216;We need help to do with something to do with security' [and we said] &#8216;Well only if you do something on Buy America.' I mean, give me a break." The Canadian Prime Minister continued: "When we, as a country, offer to be part of an international mission to help protect global security, then somebody comes along and uses that to try and leverage demands on our domestic airline industry, I don't think that's a situation we, as a country, want to be in," he added in the interview.

He went on to say: "What this teaches us in future and when we're looking at other options is, don't get in a place where somebody's going to try and use it to leverage some unrelated issue."


gulfnews : UAE-Canada relations at all-time low

UAE Canada dispute

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-pakistani-gnrls-politicians.html#post2331267


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## Albatross

I have been using this site for years to update myself regarding defence matters and other core issues..But such brutal killing of our soldiers by socalled friends left me with no option but to join and express myself as I feel its high time for us to be united and strong and rethink our strategy..

Instead of blindly abusing NATO and US we need to act rationally ..do some research and ask Allah to give us guidance I would like to quote a lil example for the refference..how did the world war 2 started ..though on the surface it was against the hitler and his crimes against humanity..but how many of you know that he was financed by secret financers from united states including the grandfather of last US president bush..he was even arrested in 1944 and the news can be viewed in newyork times then edition..deep down the both sides in that war were funded by the same party..hitler was motivated by jews indirectly and the relations between bush family and elite jews is no more a secret..I cant go in all the gory details but hint is enough for wise people..

One more example is killing of john f kennedy after he tried to take american federal reserve under government wings by signing an exective order..For people who doesnt know its been over two centuries that american banking system is under jewish control..And whosoever tried to come in the way was eliminated instantly..

Point here is there are people in this world who has no value for human life and has means and ways to make them fight and kill oneanother..Nato would never like to create such a situation with pakistan especially when relationship was about to improve after months of chaos..If somehow this incident can be investigated completely it will lead to some invisible hands which guided atleast one or two member in that mission which deliberately killed our soldiers to achieve their target which was to create this gap b/w us and nato and bring us to a point where there is abuse and mistrust..A normal american and pakistani is busy in arranging bread and butter for his family but what has happened that now the common man on both sides hate eachother and blame other side for their miseries..Its like an evil web that has been knitted so cleverly that we play in their hands like lil kittens...
bottom line is this is high time for us to devise ways to be independent in the true sense of the word and get out of this american,inidian and jewish hatred and goafter those handful of illminded people who has carefully created this chaos and bloodshed throughout the globe..And Allah subhan tallah will guide us through only if our niyat and our souls are pure...Read between lines my friends and thats the only way out and stop reacting emotionally..

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## Safriz

patna_ke_presley said:


> They started a third front in Libya which means US don't care to spend money on starting new front(my point is not about Gadaffi or anti-Gadaffis). Anyway, you are belittling the economic component and instead talking with "Garam Khoon" without thinking of dealing with situation wisely.


 
its not only about being hot under the collar....if you look into stats...pakistan has lost too much money on WOT..and its not worth.it.. plus it has divided the nation..
something as drastic as a nato attack will only have positive effect as.on creating unity among pakistanis and thats what the country needs even more than money.


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## W.11

Fracker said:


> I was expecting a better response from PA, GoP and other so called political parties (including PTI) and lastly was expecting much better response from the people of pakistan, People of Pakistan should have come on the road throughout the whole country and should have marched to all parliaments, to show their strength to the WORLD, together and peacefully



it had happened the day the first/last drone struck


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## longbrained

I say we should teem up with China, Iran and Venezuela. Disregard US objections against Iran gas pipeline, buy oil from Venezuela and increase China military cooperation. Not only that but it is now high time for Pakistan to get a blanket SAM coverage of the country for air defense purposes so that any aggressors wet themselves on mere thinking about flying near Pakistani border let alone crossing it. I say a dozen S-300 PMU2 and hundred each of Tor M1 and Pantsirs would do the job. Use China connection to get those, which are at any rate much cheaper than American crap F-16's. Conduct military exercises with Iran to send a message to US and NATO. There are so many things that can be done. Even a simple statement that in any next attack NATO helicopters or drones will be shot down once they fly close to Pakistani territory can be a good response. But these replies have not come unfortunately. Only simple "protests" will no do it. As history show.


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## PakShaheen79

Can we really keep this threat to the topic please.

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## Windjammer

Agreed NATO has breached our sovereignty more than that, it has conducted a cold blooded murder of 24 sons of the soil.
There is discrepancy in leading up to the fateful incident. NATO has promised a full investigation while the Pakistani establishment is also weighing it's options. If a country declares a war, then a immediate response is usually the requirement, even after 9/11 US didn't immediately attack Afghanistan. The bitter reality is we'll just need to wait and see the outcome of the findings.


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## Safriz

Pakistan Buries Troops Amid Fury Over NATO Strike | News | English

so they still say that killing pakistani sldiers miles inside pakistani territory was ok......


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## Khan_patriot

Shardul.....the lion said:


> This is very gory video, its scary



******* cowards......


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Your 'level headedness' is the equivalent to people like 'Mukhtaran Mai' getting 'raped by jirga' and being advised to 'accept ground realities since the opponent is too powerful and things like equality and justice don't apply'.
> 
> Bravo! Your moral depravity is clear as day.



Look at how Mukhtaran Mai's case eventually turned out, with the acquittal of all but one guy. I rest my case with your analogy.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

patna_ke_presley said:


> Last time I head Pakistan had debt of $67 Billion and Pakistan is also taking further debt of $2.5 Billion for Lahore Metro and it need some $12 Billion for Diamar Bhasha Dam.
> 
> There is something called credit rating which shows the burden a debt is putting over country, CCC defines a bankrupt country just above that is B- and Top is AAA. US only lost AAA to AA+, China still have AA- rating, India at BBB+. But Pakistan has rating of B- which expose it more for crisis. So, dealing with US is really a tough job for Pakistan.




Until the US/NATO forces are in Afghanistan, they need us more than we need them...


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## Jango

The DG ISPR has refuted claims by the NATo chief that they were chasing terrorists in that area, saying that the area had been cleared of the insurgents and the ISAF had been informed about it. The Company HQ there was placed to keep a hold of that area.

A cricket match between British Army and Pak Army has now been cancelled.

Looks like the pakistanis are taking no shi* about this mistake excuse.


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## Irfan Baloch

Devil Soul said:


> Brit Army Cricket team have arrived in PAK to play cricket match with PAK Army Cricket team, but PAK Army have refused to play any cricket match with them..... EXPRESSNEWS



unfortunate timing of course. Its not British army&#8217;s fault. This can be deferred for anywhere in the future once this issue is resolved.

by the way, if this incident would have happened to any other country within the NATO forces, their people would have been demanding the return of their troops and be done with America's war on terror.

whenever Americans have killed the British and Canadian forces there has been an uproar in the home countries asking their governments to stop cooperating in America's wars. sadly we have no choice and no where to go NATO is fighting the war next door and pushing its weaker partner in the corner.


there are only 2 possibilities 

1. The NATO high command sanctioned the attack knowing what the target was.
2. The NATO troops who called the attack and the pilots who carried out the strike are inept, illiterate and cant use their own NAV systems to see where they are being sent.

The other question apart from the Ariel attack is how far the ground troops had intruded into Pakistan by when they decided to request an air strike on a target 2.5 KM inside Pakistan. What kind of tactical situation is that which needed an attack on a designated post so far away from the border?

Using the air strike as an excuse for coming under fire from the Taliban is also very flimsy, weak and meant for people who are ignorant of the world of military and warfare. What kind of weapons the Taliban were carrying while trying to be as mobile and fast to escape the perusing ISAF/ NATO troops yet be able to fire back at them from miles? Either they were super human who were able to carry medium or heavy mortars and heavy machine guns while running up and down the mountains or they had air transport that was shadowing them to deploy their long range weapons to fire back at the ISAF/ NATO troops? Isn&#8217;t it absolute garbage? The best any mobile foot unit can muster is RPGs , light machine guns and light mortars of about 50 mm that cant fire beyond 800 meters. Even the machine gun bullets beyond 1 km and under 2 km will be actually harmlessly falling on the ground. I am not even mentioning RPGs and assault rifles as they don&#8217;t go beyond few hundred meters. 


Now coming to the excuse of coming under fire from the Pakistani post, same rules apply. Their only long range weapons will be heaver morters or artillery. Had they directed any artillery fire on the NATO forces? If they had then there would have been NATO casualties and people like Glen Beck and O'Reilly would have been chocking blood by now and demanding nuclear strikes on Pakistan.


I will once again highlight the need of the following.

To get the conversation of the pilots and their base that ordered the attack and the conversation during and after the attack. And the conversation of The ground troops that requested the strikes.

How far or close where the NATO troops in the &#8220;poorly marked&#8221; border?

Now one thing is clear that those air strikes were definitely called upon specifically for those Pakistani posts so again two sub questions

Were the imbeciles on ground aware of the Pakistani posts and deliberately requested their destruction?
Did the dimwits at the NATO mission HQ know what the troops were requesting (attack on Pakistani posts) and then knowingly gave the go ahead?
Did the goons flying the helicopters and the aircraft also know that they were being told to attack 2.5 KM inside Pakistan on the designated posts of their war ally?

The more you think about it and raise questions about it more it seems that either the NATO was reckless, careless and incompetent or overtly vicious and deliberately hostile in its brazen attack. Lets see what the investigations by NATO (for all their worth) show up and if there is any joint team set up to find the facts (I doubt if that will happen) so that its established at which level the mistake was made.
If you ask me, I will put the blame on the mission HQ that took the request and gave the go ahead to the air strikes. 

As far as the response of Pakistan is concerned, it should stop the active participation in war on terror and get to the level of support of say Turkey or Russia or say Saudi Arabia. It should fully concentrate on fighting (ONLY) TTP and BLA terrorists and give moral support to the peaceful settlement of the Afghan crises. 
Given the circumstances Pakistan is in and the parity of military power between American/ NATO and Pakistan there is nothing much Pakistan can do more than some protests and gearing down the support in WoT. Its not a gang war and a cartel animosity that should lead in reprisal attacks etc so any such suggestions are cheap and stupid. The states don&#8217;t work like that no matter how bad the situations get. 
When the Soviets shot down the American U2 spy plane that took off from badabir KP, Khrushchev threatened Pakistan by wiping that airbase from the face of the earth for aiding USA. But that&#8217;s were it all stopped and the behind the scene diplomacy cooled down the political temperature.

The only positive outcome from this attack is that NATO and the USA are not acting like their characteristic machismo despite what the internet trolls and Fox news fascists wish them to say. Pakistan can ask them what will NATO do to prevent such actions in the future and if its not satisfied it conveys that it will do all it can to protect its land and the lives of its troops from any similar future attacks. Pakistan is already fighting this war on its own expense and the so called aid is not military in nature but the reimbursement for using its facilities and the corridor and that is goin in the government&#8217;s pocket so its no longer an incentive to keep it going at the risk of its troops and civilians..


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## iPhone

Indians have been posting a lot of insensitive garbage in this thread as we mourn the loss of our brave men. Mods should take strict action of Indian trolling and hand out bans at first sight of such ill posting. This isn't the thread where we should tolerate their usual garbage.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Muje aik baat samaj nahi aa rahi. Hundreds or thousands of innocent Tribals of FATA are killed in drone attacks by US...uss par kisi ne itna shor nahi machaya and now that 30 soldiers are killed, ghairat and temper has raised to the skies and there are talks of war with US...Kyun , civilians ka khoon sasta he aur foji ka mehanga?

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## unicorn

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Again, after the bombs and missiles from choppers and/or jets were launched, the posts were pretty much destroyed - what weaponry in the PA's arsenal would detect and neutralize these missiles and bombs fired from across the border, in a matter of minutes, if not seconds?



This mentality is actually the problem of everything we are facing today. If we go by logic and numbers than compared to USA we have nothing. But what hurts is when we look country like Iran. Their army is technically and in capability wise inferior in a lot of ways compared to us. But still they are standing against USA, all NATO countries and against Israel and they are doing an excellent job in defending their country. So what is the driving force in this. It is their will. 

Lawmaker: Iran shot down unmanned US spy plane - Yahoo! News

Iran shot down just one drone and it brings shivers in the USA.This the the sort of mental attitude that we require. 

If we allow outsiders to bomb our own people on our own soil then we cannot expect better things.


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## patna_ke_presley

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> Until the US/NATO forces are in Afghanistan, they need us more than we need them...



They have already started started looking for Alternate routes called Northern Distribution System. Didn't you see the way they embraced Uzbekistan recently and plans to re-route supply through two routes:- There is one Direct Rail line from Riga in Latvia to Mazar e Sharif in Russian gauge and other route through Georgia-Azerbaijan-Tajikistan. 
&lsquo;A logistics miracle&rsquo; - The Washington Post

They would have to bear some extra costs for that.


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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> unfortunate timing of course. Its not British army&#8217;s fault. This can be deferred for anywhere in the future once this issue is resolved.
> 
> by the way, if this incident would have happened to any other country within the NATO forces, their people would have been demanding the return of their troops and be done with America's war on terror.
> 
> whenever Americans have killed the British and Canadian forces there has been an uproar in the home countries asking their governments to stop cooperating in America's wars. sadly we have no choice and no where to go NATO is fighting the war next door and pushing its weaker partner in the corner.
> 
> 
> there are only 2 possibilities
> 
> 1. The NATO high command sanctioned the attack knowing what the target was.
> 2. The NATO troops who called the attack and the pilots who carried out the strike are inept, illiterate and cant use their own NAV systems to see where they are being sent.
> 
> The other question apart from the Ariel attack is how far the ground troops had intruded into Pakistan by when they decided to request an air strike on a target 2.5 KM inside Pakistan. What kind of tactical situation is that which needed an attack on a designated post so far away from the border?
> 
> Using the air strike as an excuse for coming under fire from the Taliban is also very flimsy, weak and meant for people who are ignorant of the world of military and warfare. What kind of weapons the Taliban were carrying while trying to be as mobile and fast to escape the perusing ISAF/ NATO troops yet be able to fire back at them from miles? Either they were super human who were able to carry medium or heavy mortars and heavy machine guns while running up and down the mountains or they had air transport that was shadowing them to deploy their long range weapons to fire back at the ISAF/ NATO troops? Isn&#8217;t it absolute garbage? The best any mobile foot unit can muster is RPGs , light machine guns and light mortars of about 50 mm that cant fire beyond 800 meters. Even the machine gun bullets beyond 1 km and under 2 km will be actually harmlessly falling on the ground. I am not even mentioning RPGs and assault rifles as they don&#8217;t go beyond few hundred meters.
> 
> 
> Now coming to the excuse of coming under fire from the Pakistani post, same rules apply. Their only long range weapons will be heaver morters or artillery. Had they directed any artillery fire on the NATO forces? If they had then there would have been NATO casualties and people like Glen Beck and O'Reilly would have been chocking blood by now and demanding nuclear strikes on Pakistan.
> 
> 
> I will once again highlight the need of the following.
> 
> To get the conversation of the pilots and their base that ordered the attack and the conversation during and after the attack. And the conversation of The ground troops that requested the strikes.
> 
> How far or close where the NATO troops in the &#8220;poorly marked&#8221; border?
> 
> Now one thing is clear that those air strikes were definitely called upon specifically for those Pakistani posts so again two sub questions
> 
> Were the imbeciles on ground aware of the Pakistani posts and deliberately requested their destruction?
> Did the dimwits at the NATO mission HQ know what the troops were requesting (attack on Pakistani posts) and then knowingly gave the go ahead?
> Did the goons flying the helicopters and the aircraft also know that they were being told to attack 2.5 KM inside Pakistan on the designated posts of their war ally?
> 
> The more you think about it and raise questions about it more it seems that either the NATO was reckless, careless and incompetent or overtly vicious and deliberately hostile in its brazen attack. Lets see what the investigations by NATO (for all their worth) show up and if there is any joint team set up to find the facts (I doubt if that will happen) so that its established at which level the mistake was made.
> If you ask me, I will put the blame on the mission HQ that took the request and gave the go ahead to the air strikes.
> 
> As far as the response of Pakistan is concerned, it should stop the active participation in war on terror and get to the level of support of say Turkey or Russia or say Saudi Arabia. It should fully concentrate on fighting (ONLY) TTP and BLA terrorists and give moral support to the peaceful settlement of the Afghan crises.
> Given the circumstances Pakistan is in and the parity of military power between American/ NATO and Pakistan there is nothing much Pakistan can do more than some protests and gearing down the support in WoT. Its not a gang war and a cartel animosity that should lead in reprisal attacks etc so any such suggestions are cheap and stupid. The states don&#8217;t work like that no matter how bad the situations get.
> When the Soviets shot down the American U2 spy plane that took off from badabir KP, Khrushchev threatened Pakistan by wiping that airbase from the face of the earth for aiding USA. But that&#8217;s were it all stopped and the behind the scene diplomacy cooled down the political temperature.
> 
> The only positive outcome from this attack is that NATO and the USA are not acting like their characteristic machismo despite what the internet trolls and Fox news fascists wish them to say. Pakistan can ask them what will NATO do to prevent such actions in the future and if its not satisfied it conveys that it will do all it can to protect its land and the lives of its troops from any similar future attacks. Pakistan is already fighting this war on its own expense and the so called aid is not military in nature but the reimbursement for using its facilities and the corridor and that is goin in the government&#8217;s pocket so its no longer an incentive to keep it going at the risk of its troops and civilians..



The excuse of 'poorly demarcated border' does not hold water here. If they had crossed the border( which they usually do) , it is fine to an extent. But why did they fire. Was the pilot blind that he did not see a Pakistani flag, a well setup area, with his NVG, IR images? Would be interesting to know whether he shot rockets at it or bullets.

The excuse that they chased militants has been refuted by DG ISPR, saying that the area was cleared long time ago.

Are the NATO troops so inept that they let some taliban run across the border 2.5 km inside Pakistani territory and requested air support?

I refuse to believe that it was a mistake. And if it was a case of mis-identification, then I pity the ISAF forces, for the level of intelligence of their pilots.


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## Jango

And the excuse that they were chasing terrorists also gets null and void, after reading the UN mandate, that ISAF is allowed to execute operations *within* the Afghan border. 

And saying that it was a porous border does not cut it either. It was not maps and charts on the ground, it was a helicopter navigation system, probably an Apache helicopter, and territories are easily distinguishable.


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## longbrained

unicorn said:


> This mentality is actually the problem of everything we are facing today. If we go by logic and numbers than compared to USA we have nothing. But what hurts is when we look country like Iran. Their army is technically and in capability wise inferior in a lot of ways compared to us. But still they are standing against USA, all NATO countries and against Israel and they are doing an excellent job in defending their country. So what is the driving force in this. It is their will.
> 
> Lawmaker: Iran shot down unmanned US spy plane - Yahoo! News
> 
> Iran shot down just one drone and it brings shivers in the USA.This the the sort of mental attitude that we require.
> 
> If we allow outsiders to bomb our own people on our own soil then we cannot expect better things.



It is not the will of Iranians. It is actually the "political will" which makes it possible. They directly and continuously issue threats that they will shoot down any aggressor and that they will respond to violence with violence, and this makes any enemy to think twice before firing his gun. Since the anticipated cost is high therefore no guns are fired ever. It is not like US is afraid of Iran what they are afraid of, is the cost of attacking Iran, since they know Iranians will respond whether by shooting down the helicopter or by retaliating against ships etc. UK sanctioned Iran's central bank and Iran expelled British ambassador and down graded ties with UK to consular affairs. If they had done nothing, UK would have been emboldened in their next dealing with Iran. When Pakistan does not respond then NATO gets emboldened next time since they know the costs are minimal and manageable.


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## Safriz

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Muje aik baat samaj nahi aa rahi. Hundreds or thousands of innocent Tribals of FATA are killed in drone attacks by US...uss par kisi ne itna shor nahi machaya and now that 30 soldiers are killed, ghairat and temper has raised to the skies and there are talks of war with US...Kyun , civilians ka khoon sasta he aur foji ka mehanga?


 
samajh aaey gi bhi nahii....apney chotay sey damagh per zoor matt doo aur doodh pee kay soo jao.


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## Jango

Guest01 said:


> While there are several scenarios being played out here, and various people are being assigned the responsibile for these dead men, will it be going off the reservation to actually look at the role of the Pakistani Army generals in this situation?
> 
> US and NATO have been sending messages in various open and closed foras that the Pakistani Army is allowing the Haqqani boys to operate with impunity and sometimes that in plain sight. Even the Pakistani Army at various levels have tacitly acknowledged the goings on and in fact there is now a new justification of "national interest" that has been put forward here. These boys who got slain yesterday were in fact dutifully following this very strategy (purportedly NATO claims that they came under attack while on a counter terrorism operation). Now with the NATO having made the stand very clear on the non-tolerance of such support, it was anyway a given that the gloves are increasingly off and we have evidence of the evolution of that thinking in front of us.
> 
> Will it not be apt now to blame the Pakistani generals that in order to protect their Haqqani assets, they are actually forcing the regular servicemen in harms way? These men would have been just following orders and that is their duty. The actual responsibles for the strategy would probably been squirming in Rawalpindi today.
> 
> So how is the civilian government then responsible and how is NATO responsible? Do the civilians run the country? NO. Do you expect NATO to let its soldiers die via the Haqqanis just to keep this strategic depth and support of Pakistani Army to terrorism intact? NO. So what then happens? The Generals seemingly will not deviate from this strategy of support to Haqqanis (now national interest) and NATO have anyway shown that they will not tolerate that anymore. So who is to blame when Pakistani soldiers die then? Who suffered when OBL was killed? Was it Pakistan or the Pakistani Army generals? Where does the malaise lie then?



How does haqqani come here?

The area where the Company HQ came under attack was cleared of insurgents long time ago. There is no question of the Haqqani group coming in here.

And why did the NATO forces cross the border, in violation of the UN mandate?

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## iPhone

karan.1970 said:


> I agree that we need to be more sensitive since the issue is fresh and so is the pain.. But sermons of being sensitive coming from people who habitually refer to the Mumbai carnage as TAMASHA is a little hypocritical.. Dont you think..?? Or do you want me to point out the dozens of posts from _*someone living comfortably under the protection of ISI*_



I dont care what score you guys are here to settle, I dont partake in any Indian related events. All I know is what you guys are doing here is wrong and insenstive and should be dealt with extreme prejudice.

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## Zizou

It is no rocket science that there are some hidden hands in all this NATO/USA game in Afghanistan who will not want relations with Pakistan to be normal.

Things to think are can we retaliate ??? .... Rational mind would suggest otherwise but what kind of effect will this cold blood killing of our soldiers and citizens on daily basis will have on moral of soldiers and a nation as a whole???? If we sitting in all comforts of the world are so frustrated and ashamed, imagine the frustration of a common soldier ... It will keep on boiling and can lead to divisions amongst the armed forces ...

Should we retaliate ??? We should but not an all out war ... Perhaps the permanent closure of all supply routes ... kick out all americans indefinitely ... stop drone attacks ... but can all this be done with the a$$ licking leaders of ours in charge ??? No, it can't be done and we are bound to suffer more humiliation, frustration and lives ... 

What if whole nation comes out on roads ... a revolution and we successfully get rid of these leaders and do what is stated in the above paragraph ??? Will we finally be able to put our nation on the right track ??? A BIG NOOOOOOO .... 

In simple words, WAR WILL BE FORCED UPON US WHETHER WE CHOOSE TO FIGHT OR NOT ... If you think USA AND NATO can't risk a war with Pakistan considering their current state of economies, you are so so wrong ... those in charge don't give a damn about common people whether in Pakistan, Afghanistan, USA or Europe ... Life of common man has no meaning to these greedy warmongers. They will kill billions to achieve their objectives .... 

WAKE UP PEOPLE ... LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE ... THE BIGGEST AND DEADLIEST WAR IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND IS ABOUT TO ERUPT .... ALL ROADS LEAD TO JERUSALEM !!!


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

patna_ke_presley said:


> They have already started started looking for Alternate routes called Northern Distribution System. Didn't you see the way they embraced Uzbekistan recently and plans to re-route supply through two routes:- There is one Direct Rail line from Riga in Latvia to Mazar e Sharif in Russian gauge and other route through Georgia-Azerbaijan-Tajikistan.
> &#8216;A logistics miracle&#8217; - The Washington Post
> 
> They would have to bear some extra costs for that.



its not only limited to supply routes. They need us for troops extraction, whenever they do it....


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## Roybot

Blame game begins: Nato came under fire from Pakistan before attack  The Express Tribune



> They came under cross-border fire, the Western official said.*The Afghan official said troops had come under fire from inside Pakistan as they were descending from helicopters, which had returned fire.*
> 
> Both officials asked not to be named because the attack is so sensitive.


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## Guest01

nuclearpak said:


> How does haqqani come here?
> 
> The area where the Company HQ came under attack was cleared of insurgents long time ago. There is no question of the Haqqani group coming in here.
> 
> And why did the NATO forces cross the border, in violation of the UN mandate?



The only institution saying that the area has been cleared of insurgents is the Pakistani Army. And which type of insurgents have been cleared is a question that is anyone can only guess the answer to. The story that NATO strafed "sleeping men" could have bee palatized if it was just one post that was eliminated. Actually 2 posts were eliminated. It has also been later acknowledged that Pakistani men were "returning" fire. So that is pretty much your decision to pick up the misinformaiton of your choice. 

Re the UN mandate, Obama made it clear several times that they will do whatever is necessary to protect the US soldiers even if it is going after whoever may be protecting the terrorists. So UN mandate is worth nothing. Even on the corrollary, UN also asks Pakistani army to cease support to terrorists. But that is justified as "national interest". So UN mandate is worth nothing as is evident. What however is pertinent that with this clarity from NATO that they will not leave any stone unturned and will not leave any effort undone in protecting their soldiers from any cover that the terrorist get, who is responsible for the deaths. The men who were just following orders, or NATO who had already warned that they will not allow their soldiers to die just to accomodate a twisted sense of "national interest" of the Pakistani army or will it be the PA generals that you will hold responsible now for these deaths?


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## iPhone

what is this NATO came under fire and acted in self defense, justification. THey were in Pakistani air space, what were they expecting?

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## Roybot

Pakistanis protest at U.S. consulate after NATO attack | Reuters



> (Reuters) - Thousands gathered outside the American consulate in the city of Karachi on Sunday to protest against a NATO cross-border air attack that killed 24 Pakistani troops and is threatening a strategic alliance between the countries.


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## patna_ke_presley

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> its not only limited to supply routes. They need us for troops extraction, whenever they do it....



I think troop arrives and will go in planes not through deadly roads of FATA and KP.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Roybot said:


> Blame game begins: &#8220;Nato came under fire from Pakistan before attack&#8221; &#8211; The Express Tribune



At first they were saying that they came to Mohamand Agency following terrorists. And now this bulcrap...

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## Roybot

iPhone said:


> what is this NATO came under fire and acted in self defense, justification. THey were in Pakistani air space, what were they expecting?



They are claiming that the came under fire from *across* the border. So they were not in Pakistani airspace.


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## patna_ke_presley

Here I found something Interesting, Pakistan is used only for transporting 1/3 of supply, rest 2/3 is done through Northern Distribution Network (NDN)

Factbox: NATO supply routes into Afghanistan
*Factbox: NATO supply routes into Afghanistan &#8211; some facts*

KABUL: *There are two routes into Afghanistan from Pakistan, one across the Khyber Pass to the Afghan border town of Torkham and on to Kabul. The other goes through Balochistan to the border town of Chaman and on to the Afghan city of Kandahar.
Between them, these two routes account for just under one third of all cargo that the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) ships into Afghanistan.*
Just over one-third of all cargo goes on routes dubbed the &#8220;northern distribution network&#8221; through Central Asia, and the Caucasus or Russia. The remaining 31% is flown in.
Nato declined to give details of how the shipments through Pakistan are divided between the two routes, but a spokesman said the figures likely change each month.
Some imported supplies for the fledgling Afghan armed forces, which the United States and its allies are building up, also come through the Pakistani routes.
What&#8217;s changed
As recently as July, the balance of supplies transiting through Pakistan and the northern distribution network were weighted in Pakistan&#8217;s favour, with slightly more than half of ground-transported supplies arriving through Khyber or Chaman.
After disruptions, Nato-led forces decided to push supply networks away from reliance on Pakistan. The US has decided that only 25% of ground cargo should arrive via Pakistan. This was done with the goal of &#8220;reducing reliance on any single line of communication to avoid any unnecessary vulnerabilities should that network become unavailable&#8221;, according to an Isaf spokeswoman.
Two cross-border attacks by Nato aircraft in autumn 2010, that killed three Pakistani soldiers, closed one supply route through Pakistan for several days. Nato apologised for the incident which it said happened when its gunships mistook warning shots by the Pakistani forces for a militant attack.
In April a rally on a key highway by thousands of people against drone strikes again closed the supply route briefly.
The routes through Pakistan, particularly the northern one, are also vulnerable to insurgent attacks. In May a bomb on a Nato fuel truck killed at least 16 people in the Khyber area.
The alternatives
The northern distribution network threads through either Russia or the Caucasus, across the Central Asian states of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and then into northern Afghanistan. It is largely used to bring commercial-type cargo &#8211; described by Isaf as &#8220;sustainment items like food and spare parts&#8221; to troops serving in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan also has a border with Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and China &#8211; but that is too remote and high-altitude to make a major transit route. What would be a convenient and cheap link through Iran&#8217;s port of Chabahar to western Afghanistan is ruled out by hostility between Tehran and Washington.
Published in The Express Tribune, November 27th, 2011.


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## pakdefender

I have written to the Prime Minister of Pakistan to make it clear that the *deaths of Pakistani personnel are as unacceptable and deplorable as the deaths of Afghan and international personnel *, he said in a statement. This was a tragic unintended incident.

Pakistan troop deaths &#8216;tragic, unintended&#8217;: Nato chief | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

In light of the above statement given by the head NATO rat , its now certain that the targeting of the company HQ ( some reports say it was unit level HQ ) was deliberate and intentional.

They blame Pakistan for any casualty they take in Afghanistan hence they have done this , since they have been unable to subdue the afghan insurgency in frustration they are now going to target the visible Pakistan Army deployments near the border.

We have to shut down their supplies indefinitely and also slowly but surely edge them out of Pakistan. This is all part of the broader war against Muslim nations. We have to be ready to pay them back in the same coin, through whatever means that are available to us

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

patna_ke_presley said:


> Here I found something Interesting, Pakistan is used only for transporting 1/3 of supply, rest 2/3 is done through Northern Distribution Network (NDN)
> 
> Factbox: NATO supply routes into Afghanistan
> *Factbox: NATO supply routes into Afghanistan  some facts*
> 
> KABUL: *There are two routes into Afghanistan from Pakistan, one across the Khyber Pass to the Afghan border town of Torkham and on to Kabul. The other goes through Balochistan to the border town of Chaman and on to the Afghan city of Kandahar.
> Between them, these two routes account for just under one third of all cargo that the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) ships into Afghanistan.*
> Just over one-third of all cargo goes on routes dubbed the northern distribution network through Central Asia, and the Caucasus or Russia. The remaining 31% is flown in.
> Nato declined to give details of how the shipments through Pakistan are divided between the two routes, but a spokesman said the figures likely change each month.
> Some imported supplies for the fledgling Afghan armed forces, which the United States and its allies are building up, also come through the Pakistani routes.
> Whats changed
> As recently as July, the balance of supplies transiting through Pakistan and the northern distribution network were weighted in Pakistans favour, with slightly more than half of ground-transported supplies arriving through Khyber or Chaman.
> After disruptions, Nato-led forces decided to push supply networks away from reliance on Pakistan. The US has decided that only 25% of ground cargo should arrive via Pakistan. This was done with the goal of reducing reliance on any single line of communication to avoid any unnecessary vulnerabilities should that network become unavailable, according to an Isaf spokeswoman.
> Two cross-border attacks by Nato aircraft in autumn 2010, that killed three Pakistani soldiers, closed one supply route through Pakistan for several days. Nato apologised for the incident which it said happened when its gunships mistook warning shots by the Pakistani forces for a militant attack.
> In April a rally on a key highway by thousands of people against drone strikes again closed the supply route briefly.
> The routes through Pakistan, particularly the northern one, are also vulnerable to insurgent attacks. In May a bomb on a Nato fuel truck killed at least 16 people in the Khyber area.
> The alternatives
> The northern distribution network threads through either Russia or the Caucasus, across the Central Asian states of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and then into northern Afghanistan. It is largely used to bring commercial-type cargo  described by Isaf as sustainment items like food and spare parts to troops serving in Afghanistan.
> Afghanistan also has a border with Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and China  but that is too remote and high-altitude to make a major transit route. What would be a convenient and cheap link through Irans port of Chabahar to western Afghanistan is ruled out by hostility between Tehran and Washington.
> Published in The Express Tribune, November 27th, 2011.



if it really were that easy, they would have changed the route completely already.. Last time when when the supplies were stopped, US/NATO troops were even out of toilet papers and apologized for the incident then...


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## Irfan Baloch

Guest01 said:


> Even on the corrollary, UN also asks Pakistani army to cease support to terrorists. But that is justified as "national interest". So UN mandate is worth nothing as is evident.



stop talking Balls,

where did Paksitan say that its supporting the terrorists as a national interest? why are you posting crap?

can you distinguish between keeping links with Haqqanis and actually supporting the Haqqanis?

the Americans have managed to make that distinction now and thats why Americans and Haqqanis have had meetings with ISI's help.

stop posting nonse and misinformation or show the links where Pakistan says that supporting Haqqanis is in its interest.

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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> Look at how Mukhtaran Mai's case eventually turned out, with the acquittal of all but one guy. I rest my case with your analogy.



wow, just wow. if you had an ounce of shame and diginity in you would have thought twice about posting what you did and that too with a shamless emoticon at the end. 

P.S. Miss Mai became a symbol of struggle against the elite against all odds. Gained respect of the entire nation as the culprits became reviled. A much better state than remaining silent and being wiped out into oblivion. But a level headed person like you would never understand that.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> As I already said NATO has declared that it acted in Self Defence.Somebody fired upon them.


BS - the post was deep inside Pakistani territory, and the region was one where militants have launched attacks into Pakistan from Afghanistan - initial NATO statements also pointed to 'attacks on NATO bases in Kunar', quite a distance away from the two Pakistani posts. 

In addition, did NATO provide Pakistan details of any operations it was conducting along the border that night, to prevent the troops at the posts from mistaking the operations as hostile or Taliban?

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

The meeting decided to ask the *United States to vacate Shamsi Air Base in southwestern Balochistan province within 15 days* in an apparent protest against NATO strikes.

Pakistan asks US to vacate key air base in 15 days


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## VCheng

iPhone said:


> wow, just wow. if you had an ounce of shame and diginity in you would have thought twice about posting what you did and that too with a shamless emoticon at the end.
> 
> P.S. Miss Mai became a symbol of struggle against the elite against all odds. Gained respect of the entire nation as the culprits became reviled. A much better state than remaining silent and being wiped out into oblivion. But a level headed person like you would never understand that.



I suppose it is easier for you to direct your anger at me rather than the Supreme Court that did that?

Similarly, your own leadership will keep on doing the same thing even after this, and you will just get angry at me, who is not the problem.

How typical.

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## gOtHmOG

nuclearpak said:


> Some friends ( within the higher end of the army) said that COAS is really outraged by the acts of NATO and other countries. And this case will be pursued, definitely. Or else, shame on us. I can see a strong message being sent out to those NATO sc**.
> 
> BTW, which NATO country did this?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> He has a blockade on 25 Dec if I am not wrong. But that is too late. Get a dharna within 2 days at Peshawar. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
> 
> The last time we blocked the NATO routes, they were on their knees.


NATO is the USA. Without the USA the rest of the member countries cannot sustain military operations indefinitely. The US uses NATO as a tool to gain legitimacy. The attacks,I believe have been carried by out by the US military presence there. For me blocking the transit route is not enough. A clear message needs to be sent. They need to know that if they try and cross the border next time, they will get hit.

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## Irfan Baloch

there are only 2 possibilities 

1. The NATO high command sanctioned the attack knowing what the target was.
2. The NATO troops who called the attack and the pilots who carried out the strike are inept, illiterate and cant use their own NAV systems to see where they are being sent.

The other question apart from the Ariel attack is how far the ground troops had intruded into Pakistan by when they decided to request an air strike on a target 2.5 KM inside Pakistan. What kind of tactical situation is that which needed an attack on a designated post so far away from the border?

Using the air strike as an excuse for coming under fire from the Taliban is also very flimsy, weak and meant for people who are ignorant of the world of military and warfare. What kind of weapons the Taliban were carrying while trying to be as mobile and fast to escape the perusing ISAF/ NATO troops yet be able to fire back at them from miles? Either they were super human who were able to carry medium or heavy mortars and heavy machine guns while running up and down the mountains or they had air transport that was shadowing them to deploy their long range weapons to fire back at the ISAF/ NATO troops? Isn&#8217;t it absolute garbage? The best any mobile foot unit can muster is RPGs , light machine guns and light mortars of about 50 mm that cant fire beyond 800 meters. Even the machine gun bullets beyond 1 km and under 2 km will be actually harmlessly falling on the ground. I am not even mentioning RPGs and assault rifles as they don&#8217;t go beyond few hundred meters. 


Now coming to the excuse of coming under fire from the Pakistani post, same rules apply. Their only long range weapons will be heaver morters or artillery. Had they directed any artillery fire on the NATO forces? If they had then there would have been NATO casualties and people like Glen Beck and O'Reilly would have been chocking blood by now and demanding nuclear strikes on Pakistan.


I will once again highlight the need of the following.

To get the conversation of the pilots and their base that ordered the attack and the conversation during and after the attack. And the conversation of The ground troops that requested the strikes.

How far or close where the NATO troops in the &#8220;poorly marked&#8221; border?

Now one thing is clear that those air strikes were definitely called upon specifically for those Pakistani posts so again two sub questions

Were the imbeciles on ground aware of the Pakistani posts and deliberately requested their destruction?
Did the dimwits at the NATO mission HQ know what the troops were requesting (attack on Pakistani posts) and then knowingly gave the go ahead?
Did the goons flying the helicopters and the aircraft also know that they were being told to attack 2.5 KM inside Pakistan on the designated posts of their war ally?

The more you think about it and raise questions about it more it seems that either the NATO was reckless, careless and incompetent or overtly vicious and deliberately hostile in its brazen attack. Lets see what the investigations by NATO (for all their worth) show up and if there is any joint team set up to find the facts (I doubt if that will happen) so that its established at which level the mistake was made.
If you ask me, I will put the blame on the mission HQ that took the request and gave the go ahead to the air strikes. 

As far as the response of Pakistan is concerned, it should stop the active participation in war on terror and get to the level of support of say Turkey or Russia or say Saudi Arabia. It should fully concentrate on fighting (ONLY) TTP and BLA terrorists and give moral support to the peaceful settlement of the Afghan crises. 
Given the circumstances Pakistan is in and the parity of military power between American/ NATO and Pakistan there is nothing much Pakistan can do more than some protests and gearing down the support in WoT. Its not a gang war and a cartel animosity that should lead to reprisal attacks etc so any such suggestions are cheap and stupid. The states don&#8217;t work like that no matter how bad the situations get. 
When the Soviets shot down the American U2 spy plane that took off from badabir KP, Khrushchev threatened Pakistan by wiping that airbase from the face of the earth for aiding USA. But that&#8217;s were it all stopped and the behind the scene diplomacy cooled down the political temperature.

The only positive outcome from this attack is that NATO and the USA are not acting like their characteristic machismo despite what the internet trolls and Fox news fascists wish them to say. Pakistan can ask them what will NATO do to prevent such actions in the future and if its not satisfied it conveys that it will do all it can to protect its land and the lives of its troops from any similar future attacks. Pakistan is already fighting this war on its own expense and the so called aid is not military in nature but the reimbursement for using its facilities and the corridor and that is goin in the government&#8217;s pocket so its no longer an incentive to keep it going at the risk of its troops and civilians

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## pakdefender

First we have to squeeze them through the supply routes , then follow up on removing their presence from bases like Shamsi , round up their presence within Pakistan and then turn the heat on these murders and make them pay in blood for the loss of our personel.


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## Musafar

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> The meeting decided to ask the *United States to vacate Shamsi Air Base in southwestern Balochistan province within 15 days* in an apparent protest against NATO strikes.
> 
> Pakistan asks US to vacate key air base in 15 days



Hasn't this base supposidely been vaccated already - as state by pak officials? It seems that we have been lied too again. This is the same base that google maps exposed for having drones on its runway.

typical of the double-dealing by those in power.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Irfan Baloch said:


> there are only 2 possibilities
> 
> *1. The NATO high command sanctioned the attack knowing what the target was.
> 2. The NATO troops who called the attack and the pilots who carried out the strike are inept, illiterate and cant use their own NAV systems to see where they are being sent.
> *



or it may be that these NATO pilots were mentally ill...

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------




Musafar said:


> Hasn't this base supposidely been vaccated already - as state by pak officials? It seems that we have been lied too again.
> 
> typical of the double-dealing by those in power.



*exactly!* It was Rehman Malik who said that Shamsi Base has been vacated.. Bloody Liar...


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## pakdefender

Musafar said:


> Hasn't this base supposidely been vaccated already - as state by pak officials? It seems that we have been lied too again. This is the same base that google maps exposed for having drones on its runway.
> 
> typical of the double-dealing by those in power.



United States was able to squeeze us in the aftermatch of 9/11 by claiming the higher moral ground and throguh the threat of force .. times have changed and we have to push back on all the inroads that they have made since then .. it will take time but this has to done.

In the mean time displays of stupidity that will lend a hand to enemy in any form should be avoided. ( the same stupididty that TTP goons have done to embolden the enemy )


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## patna_ke_presley

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> if it really were that easy, they would have changed the route completely already.. Last time when when the supplies were stopped, US/NATO troops were even out of toilet papers and apologized for the incident then...



I don't know what happened last time, but this time it is 100% sure that they won't suffer for toilet paper, even for beer to drink. US already made alternate plans so such thing never happen but I don't know about preparation made by Pakistan for hostile moments.


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> I think the majority of Pakistanis are blinded by their indoctrination, and hence are more gullible than anything else. Once their leadership is changed, by force likely, it is only then that they will begin to see.



awww most pakistanis are "blinded by their indoctrination" even those of pakistani origin who have been educated in the best western unis and schools only cheng out of all of us has the clarity. His opinions seem completly in tune with those that have pakistani blood on their hands. American Indian govts views all chime with one another and Cheng is their cheer leader. What I find funny is that he displays this as truth and or intellectual superiority over the rest of us. To me this superiority complex is actually the worst part of an inferiority complex. Tell us cheng what has happend in your childhood that makes you so disloyal.

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> there are only 2 possibilities
> 
> 1. The NATO high command sanctioned the attack knowing what the target was.
> 2. The NATO troops who called the attack and the pilots who carried out the strike are inept, illiterate and cant use their own NAV systems to see where they are being sent.
> 
> .....................



Let us wait for the final report, shall we?


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## Nitin Goyal

what could be the objective of NATO ???


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Look at how Mukhtaran Mai's case eventually turned out, with the acquittal of all but one guy. I rest my case with your analogy.


Your 'case' suggests that Mukhtaran Mai and others simply stop struggling for changing the status quo of injustice and inequality.

Again, your moral depravity is clear.

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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> ................ American Indian govts views all chime with one another and Cheng is their cheer leader. .......................



Ever consider the possibility that the rest of the world may actually be CORRECT and Pakistan is in the WRONG?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Tommorow the american defence attache or should i call him attackie is comming to pay respects n tribute to our Heroic Martyrs in Multan Garrison.. the celebration will be attended my attaches frm multiple countries .....and will be held at YADGAR E SHUHADA monument.... I asked my father if it was equal to spray our wounds with salt or chillies.... he had no words

Its time we tell usa to f..k off!

And embrace our fate even if it means tht we become the next N korea!

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Your 'case' suggests that Mukhtaran Mai and others simply stop struggling for changing the status quo of injustice and inequality.
> 
> Again, your moral depravity is clear.



No Sir: The moral depravity of the system that you are supporting is clear. You merely misdirect that ire at me.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Let us wait for the final report, shall we?


Why? Is the final report being prepared by a joint 'NATO-Pak' investigation?

If not, why should we 'wait' for the NATO report, since Pakistan has already made clear its own position? Especially given NATO's track record of bombing weddings and funerals?

You continue to betray your hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to the actions of the US/West and Pakistan.

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## Jango

Guest01 said:


> The only institution saying that the area has been cleared of insurgents is the Pakistani Army. And which type of insurgents have been cleared is a question that is anyone can only guess the answer to. The story that NATO strafed "sleeping men" could have bee palatized if it was just one post that was eliminated. Actually 2 posts were eliminated. It has also been later acknowledged that Pakistani men were "returning" fire. So that is pretty much your decision to pick up the misinformaiton of your choice.
> 
> *Re the UN mandate, Obama made it clear several times that they will do whatever is necessary to protect the US soldiers even if it is going after whoever may be protecting the terrorists. So UN mandate is worth nothing. Even on the corrollary, UN also asks Pakistani army to cease support to terrorists. But that is justified as "national interest".* So UN mandate is worth nothing as is evident. What however is pertinent that with this clarity from NATO that they will not leave any stone unturned and will not leave any effort undone in protecting their soldiers from any cover that the terrorist get, who is responsible for the deaths. The men who were just following orders, or NATO who had already warned that they will not allow their soldiers to die just to accomodate a twisted sense of "national interest" of the Pakistani army or will it be the PA generals that you will hold responsible now for these deaths?



As for the first paragraph, I have not seen the ISPR statement personally myself, nor have I heard it, what I said was exactly what was said to me by a Brigadier in the Armed Forces related to that area. So stop spewing nonsense. The area was cleared, everybody knows it , if you have contacts within. And 2 posts were not eliminated. Rather it was one post, or rather Company HQ , not a post, and it was attacked twice by helis.

As for the bolded part, just shows the respect for UN you guys have. This way, Iran has full rights to deny entry of IAEA people into their country.

And nowhere has it been said that it is national interest, and you have no proof so say other wise. The terrorists that attacked NATO in the first place, were not from across the border, they were on the Afghan side, and then fled into the pakistani side, as said by the NATO chief. 

Why did the helis come there?

How did they possibly cross 2.5 km into Pak territory , is NATO so inept?

Was the pilot blind?

Stop spewing BS .

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> No Sir: The moral depravity of the system that you are supporting is clear. You merely misdirect that ire at me.


Calling for an end to injustice and inequality is no moral depravity on my part - but that is precisely what your position is, as pointed out.


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## Patriot

Don't expect anything from NATO - They even promoted the officer who gave order to shot down a civilian air liner.
Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> What has happened is merely an appetizer. The main dish is yet to be served, followed by several other courses. The _people _of Pakistan are not the problem; it is merely the elite cabal in power.



Aww cheng the main dish is yet to be served. Is your problem that just like on this forum in real life you have not been recognised as what you think you should be recognised for that is think tank? your problem is that you feel that people like you should part of the elite cable in power? Pakistan doesnt need or want you and you feel discarded and you hope that the enemies of pakistan and pakistanis may put you in that elite. Was it quisling who thought the same.

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## regular

Albatross said:


> I have been using this site for years to update myself regarding defence matters and other core issues..But such brutal killing of our soldiers by socalled friends left me with no option but to join and express myself as I feel its high time for us to be united and strong and rethink our strategy..
> 
> Instead of blindly abusing NATO and US we need to act rationally ..do some research and ask Allah to give us guidance I would like to quote a lil example for the refference..how did the world war 2 started ..though on the surface it was against the hitler and his crimes against humanity..but how many of you know that he was financed by secret financers from united states including the grandfather of last US president bush..he was even arrested in 1944 and the news can be viewed in newyork times then edition..deep down the both sides in that war were funded by the same party..hitler was motivated by jews indirectly and the relations between bush family and elite jews is no more a secret..I cant go in all the gory details but hint is enough for wise people..
> 
> One more example is killing of john f kennedy after he tried to take american federal reserve under government wings by signing an exective order..For people who doesnt know its been over two centuries that american banking system is under jewish control..And whosoever tried to come in the way was eliminated instantly..
> 
> Point here is there are people in this world who has no value for human life and has means and ways to make them fight and kill oneanother..Nato would never like to create such a situation with pakistan especially when relationship was about to improve after months of chaos..If somehow this incident can be investigated completely it will lead to some invisible hands which guided atleast one or two member in that mission which deliberately killed our soldiers to achieve their target which was to create this gap b/w us and nato and bring us to a point where there is abuse and mistrust..A normal american and pakistani is busy in arranging bread and butter for his family but what has happened that now the common man on both sides hate eachother and blame other side for their miseries..Its like an evil web that has been knitted so cleverly that we play in their hands like lil kittens...
> bottom line is this is high time for us to devise ways to be independent in the true sense of the word and get out of this american,inidian and jewish hatred and goafter those handful of illminded people who has carefully created this chaos and bloodshed throughout the globe..And Allah subhan tallah will guide us through only if our niyat and our souls are pure...Read between lines my friends and thats the only way out and stop reacting emotionally..


Yes! Infact if anybody I seen on this forum knowing the real sensible post is ure post.. Thats what is the real evil game behind the scene. The facts U pointed out are very true...Thats is the masonic chapter or the secret society chapter working behind the curtain manuplating the incidents and giving cover to their evil puppets working on the front stage.Your observations are 200% accurate. These are the evil pplz running Alqaida funding them sponsoring terrorism involved within the killing of the President J. F. Kennedy. They are infact on the total control of the Federal Reserves of the US. They trying to start world war III from Pakistan by creating these situations within the region.... They are real devils.....Mr. Alex John has exposed them excellently within his videos of 911Truth and the Terrorstorm videos. Everybody can watch them on google.com for free.
Thanx Sir for ure great info and advice for the nation......


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why? Is the final report being prepared by a joint 'NATO-Pak' investigation?
> 
> If not, why should we 'wait' for the NATO report, since Pakistan has already made clear its own position? Especially given NATO's track record of bombing weddings and funerals?
> 
> You continue to betray your hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to the actions of the US/West and Pakistan.



The final report can form the basis of a response and future actions, that is all.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Calling for an end to injustice and inequality is no moral depravity on my part - but that is precisely what your position is, as pointed out.



That is precisely it: you are content at merely "calling out" without changing anything at all. Look at what your "calling out" has achieved over the last 60 years. Insanity by the famous definition fits here quite appropriately.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Ever consider the possibility that the rest of the world may actually be CORRECT and Pakistan is in the WRONG?


When did the 'rest of the world' conduct an investigation into this incident?

NATO officials are feeding the media to cover up their crimes, but again, when it comes to 'excusing Western crimes and atrocities' ''establishing the facts' apparently takes a back seat and ad populum arguments are conveniently resorted to.

You are twisting yourself into knots, contradicting yourself on almost every point, just to find some means of excusing NATO crimes and blaming Pakistan.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> When did the 'rest of the world' conduct an investigation into this incident?
> 
> NATO officials are feeding the media to cover up their crimes, but again, when it comes to 'excusing Western crimes and atrocities' ''establishing the facts' apparently takes a back seat and ad populum arguments are conveniently resorted to.
> 
> You are twisting yourself into knots, contradicting yourself on almost every point, just to find some means of excusing NATO crimes and blaming Pakistan.



I meant OVERALL direction of the state Sir, not with regards to just this incident.


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## longbrained

Patriot said:


> Don't expect anything from NATO - They even promoted the officer who gave order to shot down a civilian air liner.
> Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
Human rights? Huh. You see west can do anything including killing children and women and name it collateral damage in the way of greater good for the west. The rest is not really important for them. They call us rug heads, Paakii and sand niggers. We have never been equal to them and will never be as per their ideology.

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

VCheng said:


> Ever consider the possibility that the rest of the world may actually be CORRECT and Pakistan is in the WRONG?



Whatever the RIGHT path may be, I am sure it is not and never will be to fall in foreign hands and ask for help, because they are back stabbers...


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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> Aww cheng the main dish is yet to be served. Is your problem that just like on this forum in real life you have not been recognised as what you think you should be recognised for that is think tank? your problem is that you feel that people like you should part of the elite cable in power? Pakistan doesnt need or want you and you feel discarded and you hope that the enemies of pakistan and pakistanis may put you in that elite. Was it quisling who thought the same.



Hey, I already have a shrink; I don't need you as another one!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Your 'case' suggests that Mukhtaran Mai and others simply stop struggling for changing the status quo of injustice and inequality.
> 
> Again, your moral depravity is clear.



The prof-barrister who teaches us criminal law at my univ... is a frnd of the defence lawyer of muktharan mai... he told us it was more of a drama! Her first statement was tht nothing happened... later she changed her stance multiple times... and the accused men who were from the same family... and were locked away for 10 years without judgement... this punishment has/had crippled the whole family.... coz the men were the only bread earners ... and later the judgment which was on merit was handed out ... and most realeased due to lack of evidence etc... now tell me vcheng.. isnt this a *ZULM*?

Also media plays a very big role in infuencing judicial precedents n judgements... So how can you even claim tht the judgement was biased?

Another thing.. tht maggor brother of mukhtaran mai is now doing the same... hes now the head of the punchiyat ... and they r ****** rich... she drives a prado now..with guards..... where did the money $$ come from? huh


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## VCheng

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> Whatever the RIGHT path may be, I am sure it is not and never will be to fall in foreign hands and ask for help, because they are back stabbers...



Falling into foreign hands happened decades ago already!


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## Safriz

NATO investigation will not mean qnything as they have a track record of throwing blame back at pakistan everytime.
pakistan should take unilateral action withoul waiting for whatever twisted story NATO comes up with.
mo country in the world will sit and do nothing after such a criminal activity by a foreign army on her territory.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> When did the 'rest of the world' conduct an investigation into this incident?
> 
> NATO officials are feeding the media to cover up their crimes, but again, when it comes to 'excusing Western crimes and atrocities' ''establishing the facts' apparently takes a back seat and ad populum arguments are conveniently resorted to.
> 
> You are twisting yourself into knots, contradicting yourself on almost every point, just to find some means of excusing NATO crimes and blaming Pakistan.



--never mind---


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The final report can form the basis of a response and future actions, that is all.


If the 'final report' is one provided by an investigation by NATO alone, then it is no 'final report', and in fact merely the 'account of the criminal' regarding the crimes committed.


> That is precisely it: you are content at merely "calling out" without changing anything at all. Look at what your "calling out" has achieved over the last 60 years. Insanity by the famous definition fits here quite appropriately.


And so your solution is that the 'Mukhtaran Mai's of the world should stop struggling against injustice and inequality and merely 'accept the ground realities' ...

Your resort to semantics in focusing on my use of 'calling out' is childish, but correct in that many in Pakistan are starting to advocate for a forcible overthrow of the current political system in place, and the same argument would also then apply to the GoP no longer issuing mere 'rhetoric' about 'consequences', but actually acting to enforce its decisions against the US/NATO for illegal acts and crimes against Pakistan.

But then at that point you would resort to your circular argument of 'ground realities must be accepted', i.e., rather than change the system forcibly or campaign peacefully and 'call for change', Mukhtaran Mai must simply accept being 'raped by jirga' every few weeks or so. Your arguments offer nothing of substance - they are, as I mentioned, circular logic simply meant to keep talking, distracting and excusing US/NATO crimes, while constantly bashing and blaming Pakistan.

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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> Ever consider the possibility that the rest of the world may actually be CORRECT and Pakistan is in the WRONG?



define the rest of the world. US and UK? let's throw india in there and Afghn.


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## Safriz

karan.1970 said:


> Just one quick question... When did Pakistan conduct an investigation into the incident.. If it has, are there any proofs of NATO being in the wrong.. After all Pakistan is the accuser in this and carries the burden of proof...


 
having 28 soldiers dead well within their territory while insid a ell marked amd well known military check post...is that accusation?


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Hey, I already have a shrink; I don't need you as another one!



Well you certainly need one. How does it feel not to bee recognised? its the system isnt it to blame? its the forum to blame? Allways somone else. All the othe pakistanis are dishonest uneducated etc. Only Pakistani who has clarity is cheng wwow


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

VCheng said:


> Falling into foreign hands happened decades ago already!



And it did not prove a good move, and now you want us to accept their system????


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ............. correct in that many in Pakistan are starting to advocate for a forcible overthrow of the current political system in place, and the same argument would also then apply to the GoP no longer issuing mere 'rhetoric' about 'consequences', but actually acting to enforce its decisions against the US/NATO for illegal acts and crimes against Pakistan..........................



I do hope that what you advocate above happens; let there be some tangible progress using this incident as the catalyst.


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## iPhone

karan.1970 said:


> --never mind---



burden of proof doesnot lie on Pakistan's end because NATO admits it carried out the attack.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Just one quick question... When did Pakistan conduct an investigation into the incident.. If it has, are there any proofs of NATO being in the wrong.. After all Pakistan is the accuser in this and carries the burden of proof...


The initial media reports quoting Pakistani military officials - the initial death toll was much lower (6 I believe) and military officials stated they were investigating the incident and interrogating the survivors and others.

The coffins of martyred Pakistani soldiers are proof enough of the act, as are NATO military and diplomatic acceptance of the fact that their forces were responsible for the bombing of two Pakistani posts INSIDE Pakistani territory.

What is also clear is that there were TWO POSTS that were bombed, both within Pakistan. NATO might argue that they received small arms fire while conducting military operations at night, but then that area is used by Taliban staging attacks into Pakistan from Afghanistan, so NATO would have to clearly show that:

1. NATO communicated details and times of its operations to Pakistani officials in advance of the operations and was communicating with them during the operation to ensure their troops were not mistaken for hostile forces by Pakistani troops along the border.

2. If NATO had indeed kept lines of communication regarding its operations that night open with Pakistan, were NATO troops inside Pakistani territory at any point, deliberately or accidentally?

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## gOtHmOG

Friendly fire incident?Highly unlikely. NATO has drones and satellites to do the spotting for them in real-time


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

iPhone said:


> Indians have been posting a lot of insensitive garbage in this thread as we mourn the loss of our brave men. Mods should take strict action of Indian trolling and hand out bans at first sight of such ill posting. This isn't the thread where we should tolerate their usual garbage.


*We have banned quite a few individuals because of their posts on this thread. We are taking notice and taking action when appropriate.*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Muje aik baat samaj nahi aa rahi. Hundreds or thousands of innocent Tribals of FATA are killed in drone attacks by US...uss par kisi ne itna shor nahi machaya and now that 30 soldiers are killed, ghairat and temper has raised to the skies and there are talks of war with US...Kyun , civilians ka khoon sasta he aur foji ka mehanga?


Would you care to see how many threads and posts exist on this forum against US strikes and military operations in Pakistan?

Have you bothered to look at the opinion polls in Pakistan that show an overwhelming majority opposing those strikes and ops?

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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> No Sir: The moral depravity of the system that you are supporting is clear. You merely misdirect that ire at me.



how is he supporting the system which is morally deprived? he's encouraging the weak to stand up and fight against it. You on the other hand are telling them, dont do that cuz they're too powerful you wont succeed. And when they dont 'fully' succeed, you shamelessly say, I told you so.

sorry to speak on your behalf AM.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> I do hope that what you advocate above happens; let there be some tangible progress using this incident as the catalyst.


Spinning in circles again? 

What happened to 'Pakistan should accept ground realities' and therefore accept 'injustice and inequality' on the international stage?

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Spinning in circles again?
> 
> What happened to 'Pakistan should accept ground realities' and there fore accept 'injustice and inequality' on the international stage?



I do _hope _it happens; I know it is unlikely to _actually _happen.

Entirely consistent and factual position.


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## monitor

*Tensions Flare Between U.S. and Pakistan After Strike
*
By SALMAN MASOOD and ERIC SCHMITT

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan &#8212; Pakistani officials said on Saturday that NATO aircraft had killed at least 25 soldiers in strikes against two military posts at the northwestern border with Afghanistan, and the country&#8217;s supreme army commander called them unprovoked acts of aggression in a new flash point between the United States and Pakistan. 
The Pakistani government responded by ordering the Central Intelligence Agency to vacate the drone operations it runs from Shamsi Air Base, in western Pakistan, within 15 days. It also closed the two main NATO supply routes into Afghanistan, including the one at Torkham. NATO forces receive roughly 40 percent of their supplies through that crossing, which runs through the Khyber Pass, and Pakistan gave no estimate for how long the routes might be shut down. 
A NATO spokesman said it was likely that allied airstrikes caused the Pakistani casualties, but said an investigation had been ordered to determine the cause. 
In Washington, American officials were scrambling to assess what had happened amid preliminary reports that allied forces in Afghanistan engaged in a firefight along the border and called in airstrikes. Senior Obama administration officials were also weighing the implications on a relationship that took a sharp turn for the worse after a Navy Seal commando raid killed Osama bin Laden near Islamabad in May, and that has deteriorated since then. 
&#8220;Senior U.S. civilian and military officials have been in touch with their Pakistani counterparts from Islamabad, Kabul and Washington to express our condolences, our desire to work together to determine what took place and our commitment to the U.S.-Pakistan partnership, which advances our shared interests, including fighting terrorism in the region,&#8221; said Caitlin Hayden, a spokeswoman for the National Security Council. 
In a sign that the White House was trying to keep the situation from growing worse, President Obama was updated regularly throughout the day by Thomas E. Donilon, the national security adviser, Ms. Hayden said. 
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton; Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; and Gen. John R. Allen, the commander of the NATO-led forces in Afghanistan, all talked to their Pakistani counterparts to offer condolences and to promise an investigation, administration officials said. 
Mrs. Clinton and Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta issued a joint statement late Saturday endorsing the investigation and offering their &#8220;deepest condolences&#8221; to Pakistan. 
General Allen, in a separate statement, said, &#8220;This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts.&#8221; 
The strikes, which Pakistani officials said involved both helicopters and fighter jets, took place overnight at two military posts in Salala, a village in Pakistan&#8217;s Mohmand tribal region near the border with Kunar Province in Afghanistan. At least 40 soldiers were deployed at the posts, Pakistani military officials said, adding that NATO aircraft had penetrated roughly a mile and a half into Pakistan to make the strikes. 
What remained unclear on Saturday, and what will be a main focus of NATO&#8217;s inquiry, was what exactly prompted the airstrikes and whether they were unprovoked or resulted from a communications mishap. A NATO spokesman, Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, offered details suggesting that allied and Afghan troops operating near the border came under fire from unknown enemies and summoned coalition warplanes for help. 
&#8220;In the early night hours of this morning, a force consisting of Afghan forces and coalition forces, in the eastern border area where the Durand Line is not always 100 percent clear, got involved in a firefight,&#8221; General Jacobson said, according to a transcript of his statements on NATO TV that the alliance provided American officials on Saturday. (The Durand Line is the colonial-era boundary between Pakistan and Afghanistan.) 
&#8220;Air force was called in into this activity,&#8221; he said, &#8220;and we have to look into this situation of what actually happened on the ground.&#8221; 
General Jacobson told BBC television that it was &#8220;highly likely&#8221; that the airstrikes caused the Pakistani casualties. Several American and allied military, diplomatic and intelligence officials contacted on Saturday said it was unclear what threat, real or perceived, led to the airstrikes or why the allied aircraft fired on the Pakistani troops. 
Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, the Pakistan Army spokesman, told Pakistan&#8217;s Geo TV that the United States had been provided the grid locations of all Pakistani border outposts. 
Such cross-border attacks have been at the heart of an increasingly hostile relationship between Pakistani and American officials. The United States has demanded that Pakistan do more to stop militants based in its territory, particularly from the feared Haqqani network and Al Qaeda, from crossing into Afghanistan to attack American forces. And United States forces in eastern Afghanistan say they have taken more mortar and rocket fire from positions at or near active Pakistani military posts in recent months, despite complaints to Pakistan about it. 
Pakistani officials were enraged and embarrassed by the raid on Bin Laden&#8217;s compound and by repeated American drone strikes against militants in the northwestern tribal regions, which they consider breaches of the country&#8217;s sovereignty. 
In a statement on Saturday, the Pakistani military said its top commander, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, had &#8220;directed that all necessary steps be undertaken for an effective response to this irresponsible act.&#8221; 
General Kayani was severely criticized by Pakistani legislators, citizens and even his fellow commanders for allowing the American raid against Bin Laden, and he is under pressure in the wake of Saturday&#8217;s attack to stand up to the United States, American officials said. 
President Asif Ali Zardari also strongly condemned the airstrikes, and Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani cut short a vacation, returning to the capital and calling a meeting of his cabinet&#8217;s defense committee. 
A former Pakistani diplomat, Maleeha Lodhi, who has served twice as ambassador to the United States and has close ties to the Pakistani military, said in an e-mail message: &#8220;The relationship is on a much more slippery slope now. This is as close as you can get to a rupture.&#8221; 
On Saturday night, the defense committee meeting culminated in the demand to vacate the drone operations at Shamsi and the announcements that both supply routes had been closed. The base, about 200 miles southwest of Quetta in Baluchistan Province, is home to a secondary C.I.A. drone staging area. 
After the Bin Laden raid, Pakistan publicly insisted that the C.I.A. shut down its missions there, but the agency balked and Pakistan quietly relented to scaled-back operations. The end of operations there would restrict the agency&#8217;s flexibility in using airstrikes against militants. 
Pakistan also canceled several scheduled meetings this weekend with visiting American officers, sessions aimed at quietly rekindling training and other cooperation between the two militaries that was shelved after the Bin Laden raid. 
Salman Masood reported from Islamabad, and Eric Schmitt from Washington. Ismail Khan contributed reporting from Peshawar, Pakistan, and Rod Nordland from Kabul, Afghanistan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/wo...gewanted=print


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## SQ8

Gentlemen, more than a score of our men killed in their sleep.
its better we concentrate on "pinpointing" the guilty party.. by which I refer to the individual or individuals that authorized the strike. We have apologies coming in from a lot of ISAF member states.
Question is, will our leadership eventually take the apologies, or blood money as in the RD case and forget it ever happened?
Plenty of young lions to sacrifice at the alter, as long as the Lambs can enjoy their golf in Pindi..and the weasels can go around cutting ribbons at nobody events in Islamabad on their protocol motorcades.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> I do _hope _it happens; I know it is unlikely to _actually _happen.
> 
> Entirely consistent and factual position.


It is not a 'consistent position' - an argument for 'accepting ground realities' is an argument for 'doing nothing to change the status quo'.

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## Roybot

Two dead, three injured in protest rally violence in Karachi  The Express Tribune



> *KARACHI: Two people were killed and three were injured in an attack on a protest rally gathered at the Numaish Chowrangi in Karachi. A journalist was among those who received a gunshot wound at the rally.*
> 
> *During the tail end of this charged rally, unknown persons opened fire on the crowd causing a riot in the area.* Express 24/7 correspondent Sabin Agha reported that the law enforcement agencies were unable to control the situation, as firing erupted from two sides of the Chowrangi.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is not a 'consistent position' - an argument for 'accepting ground realities' is an argument for 'doing nothing to change the status quo'.



Let me try to explain with regards to the present incident:

The ground reality that will soon be accepted is that nothing substantive will change. The supply routes will reopen soon.

What needs to be done to change the status quo is not chest thumping as is being done by most here, but to build up national character and strength so that over a few years, things might improve.


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## The HBS Guy

An alternative possibility: The pakistani soldiers were sheltering/protecting some taliban who had come across from Afghanistan chased by the Americans. 

I fail to see what else explains the attack. There's probably no other reason why ISAF troops would venture 2.5km deep into Pakistan and kill 28 soldiers.


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## American Pakistani

Just 1 thing i don't understand, please any one clear it to me. Actually i believe that any foreign heli or plane has to notify the other country if it reach 4-6KM from the border, if this is correct than why NATO didn't inform & how can these NATO murderers fly their helis approx 3 KM inside Pakistan land, opened heavy fire on Pakistani troops & get away.

And why there was no immidiate response from any Pakistani jet, heli etc????


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## karan.1970

American Pakistani said:


> Just 1 thing i don't understand, please any one clear it to me. Actually i believe that any foreign heli or plane has to notify the other country if it reach 4-6KM from the border, if this is correct than why NATO didn't inform & how can these NATO murderers fly their helis approx 3 KM inside Pakistan land, opened heavy fire on Pakistani troops & get away.
> 
> *And why there was no immidiate response from any Pakistani jet, heli etc????*



the one in bold is the key question, considering

1. there were 2 attacks
2. The radars should have been tracking NATO helis much before they crossed the border


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## fd24

Clearly this is an emotional thread and has obviously riled several peoples nerves. One has to focus on the facts and these are 28 Pakistani soldiers have been killed in an unprovoked attack. Why the heck we have had so many off topic things brought up is as far as im concerned disrespectful. We can speculate on what course of action Pakistan will take and the repecussions of such action etc but please lets attempt to respect all. Not the right thread to troll or gain browny points for personal agendas.
I believe our nation has been shocked and outraged at this and will demand a vigorous response.
Pakistan should not fear sanctions and must remember how sanctions in the 1990s effected our economy - it helped us and sanctions helped pull our fingers out. Cheng is suggesting our nation should show caution as the US would pull their aid out. I say bring it on because their aid and charity has been one of the reasons why we have been suffering. Only people would be effectd would be our corrupto politicos as we never see the aid anyway.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> The exact count of deaths is hardly a proof of investigation being done or completed.. In most cases like this the death toll goes up significantly in first few hours


I did not say that the 'exact count' was proof of an investigation - I pointed out that the initial reports that came in stated that survivors and others were being interrogated/interviewed to determine what happened - i.e investigation. 



> Why would NATO need to give details of their operations inside Afghanistan to Pakistan. Specially when NATO and US forces believe that any such information communicated to Pakistan finds its way to the terrorists active in the area. The reason why the operation Abbotabad (even when it was within Pakistan) was not communicated to Pakistan


Details of operations along the border need to be provided since the border, as the West itself likes to say, is poorly demarcated and insurgents move back and forth along it, which might result in troops being mistaken for insurgents massing to carry out attacks.

NATO paranoia and conspiracy theories do not excuse NATO for not coordinating their ops along the border with Pakistan - if they did not coordinate, then NATO is at fault.


> If Pakistan fired at NATO troops across the border as claimed by NATO, then its them who have to provide a reason for firing across the border...


The same reason the US/NATO uses to carry out attacks inside Pakistan - the area has been used by terrorists to stage attacks into Pakistan and Pakistani forces might have (since fire by Pakistani forces first has not yet been established) fired thinking they were attacking terrorists moving across the border, or they might have thought the 'terrorists' were already on the Pakistani side of the border, since it was night and visibility was poor.

In all of the scenarios above it is NATO that has to demonstrate that it provided details of its border operations at night to Pakistan and coordinated with Pakistani forces during the operations, in order to establish NATO innocence.

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## The HBS Guy

The question is *WHY WOULD NATO TROOPS DO THIS?*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> An alternative possibility: The pakistani soldiers were sheltering/protecting some taliban who had come across from Afghanistan chased by the Americans.
> 
> I fail to see what else explains the attack. There's probably no other reason why ISAF troops would venture 2.5km deep into Pakistan and kill 28 soldiers.


An alternate possibility - NATO/Afghan soldiers were sheltering/protecting terrorists launching attacks into Pakistan, came under Pakistani fire because they were caught, and resorted to CAS to save themselves and the terrorists.

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------




karan.1970 said:


> the one in bold is the key question, considering
> 
> 1. there were 2 attacks
> 2. The radars should have been tracking NATO helis much before they crossed the border


NATO conducts operations along the border quite often and their air support is probably in the air non-stop - tracking fighter jets in the air would not provide any indication of a potential attack on a Pakistani border post. Low flying helicopters would be hard to detect on radar in that terrain.

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## American Pakistani

karan.1970 said:


> the one in bold is the key question, considering
> 
> 1. there were 2 attacks
> 2. The radars should have been tracking NATO helis much before they crossed the border



Yes but still i didn't get my answere & will like to ask again,



> Just 1 thing i don't understand, please any one clear it to me. Actually i believe that any foreign heli or plane has to notify the other country if it reach 4-6KM from the border, if this is correct than why NATO didn't inform & how can these NATO murderers fly their helis approx 3 KM inside Pakistan land, opened heavy fire on Pakistani troops & get away.
> 
> And why there was no immidiate response from any Pakistani jet, heli etc????


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> An alternate possibility - NATO/Afghan soldiers were sheltering/protecting terrorists launching attacks into Pakistan, came under Pakistani fire because they were caught, and resorted to CAS to save themselves and the terrorists.



...all this 2.5km inside Pakistan border?

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## Irfan Baloch

Sana' Bucha's interview with Brig. Gen Carlston Jacob
watch from 10:30 onwards


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Let me try to explain with regards to the present incident:
> 
> The ground reality that will soon be accepted is that nothing substantive will change. The supply routes will reopen soon.
> 
> What needs to be done to change the status quo is not chest thumping as is being done by most here, but to build up national character and strength so that over a few years, things might improve.


Arguing against the 'status quo' is a necessary part of changing societal opinion - whether done by this government or the next.

Staying silent and not calling for change because of 'ground realities' offers nothing.

'Building national character and strength' while also calling for a rejection of injustice and inequality in international policies towards Pakistan and building pressure on Pakistani institutions to take tangible steps to support their rhetoric are not mutually exclusive.


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## The HBS Guy

Mind you, NATO has reportedly refused to condemn the incident.

Which clearly means that NATO stands by its action.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> ...all this 2.5km inside Pakistan border?


Hey, the US was claiming the ISI went all the way to Kabul to carry out some attacks .... compared to that nonsense, this makes sense - US/Afghan special forces acting in concert with terrorists planning to attack Pakistan trying to sneak across the border (or perhaps even attack the check posts pretending to be militants) got caught and came under fire and resorted to CAS to save themselves.


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Hey, the US was claiming the ISI went all the way to Kabul to carry out some attacks .... compared to that nonsense, this makes sense - US/Afghan special forces acting in concert with terrorists planning to attack Pakistan trying to sneak across the border (or perhaps even attack the check posts pretending to be militants) got caught and came under fire and resorted to CAS to save themselves.



You are comparing a covert op. to an open attack.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> You are comparing a covert op. to an open attack.


How was this an 'open attack'? I am referring to US/Afghan ground forces covertly supporting terrorists attacking Pakistan or carrying out attacks themselves against Pakistan, being caught out and fired upon.


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## American Pakistani




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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Let me try to explain with regards to the present incident:
> 
> The ground reality that will soon be accepted is that nothing substantive will change. The supply routes will reopen soon.
> 
> What needs to be done to change the status quo is not chest thumping as is being done by most here, but to build up national character and strength so that over a few years, things might improve.



What you are referring to is not done over easy..
If anything, its common history of the subcontinent you must go back to when looking at such incidents.
perhaps a canard, but a certain members comment about how our armed forces were more than willing to stand up to India aggressively yet seemed to only meow at the US is relevant to national character.

It is easy to shout it all out at other Pakistanis..
it is another matter to put up an actual effective response to the "gora saab" in power.
National character for us is reflective of our leadership, if that can be changed.. so can the people.
History is testament to some of the most deplorable nations being turned around by leadership as long as the conditions were ripe for it. The current outburst at the US(and perhaps your point of view and yourself) is indirectly a shout at our leadership(both civilian and military), a frustration with what is happening to our nation due to their incompetence.
There are faults in the Pakistani nation which are not the fault of all Pakistanis.. but the leadership needed to identify such and rectify them(which is a time intensive process) has been absent. Till such arrives.. we must contend with the will of the people for quick relief from any crises, we must understand the impatience which is justified. Whether the international community does or does not is irrelevant for now. Our current leadership(civilian and military) does not seem to posses the ability to balance this appeasement of emotion , diplomatic caution ..and national interest effectively.

To put it straight.

I just saw the coffins of 26 of my brothers draped in my flag.
By blood boils, My BP has shot up.. my eyes went wet, My fist clenched.
My "heart" wants LGB strikes on the Apache unit, their barracks.. their equipment.
My "Mind" however, lets me know of the consequences of such a move and how ill prepared we are to handle such.

But that is my mind.. it may not be thinking along the lines of everybody else.

But my heart does have a lot in common with a large section of my nation.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> ...all this 2.5km inside Pakistan border?


WRT the location of the post - if the distance from the border is correct, then, given the terrain, what weapons did the Pakistani soldiers at the post allegedly use to 'attack NATO forces' INSIDE Afghanistan? Small arms fire would obviously not be feasible at that distance, especially given the mountainous terrain.

If it was small arms fire as is being alleged, and the distance of the base WRT the border is correct, then NATO troops were inside Pakistan and they have no excuse/reason to complain about 'being fired upon by Pakistani troops'.


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## pakdefender

I know first hand how much hospitality we show to these foreign defence officals when they come to Pakistan and thats why their commanders, like this nazi jacob carsten, think that they can kill us and just give some lip service after the incident and get away with it.

We need to put the NATO/US commanders, who are relying heavily on inputs and support they get from sources in Pakistan, in the dock. We have to target NATO/US commanders who happily get easy info during informal talks , we have to make their job tougher and we have to make them pay in blood!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pakistani response to Afghan/NATO allegations of initial Pakistani fire:

*"No first fire came from Pakistan troops," said a senior Pakistani military official Sunday. "But they did respond in self-defense after NATO gunship helicopters and jet fighters carried out unprovoked firing."*

Afghans Say Pakistan Fired First in NATO Attack - WSJ.com

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## American Pakistani

Photo credit: AP | Afghanistan-bound trucks carrying supplies for NATO forces parked as authorities close border at Torkham border in Pakistan on Sunday, Nov 27, 2011. Pakistan on Saturday accused NATO helicopters and fighter jets of firing on two army checkpoints in the country's northwest and killing 24 soldiers. Islamabad retaliated by closing the border crossings used by the international coalition to supply its troops in neighboring Afghanistan. (AP Photo/Qazi Rauf)


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> WRT the location of the post - if the distance from the border is correct, then, given the terrain, what weapons did the Pakistani soldiers at the post allegedly use to 'attack NATO forces' INSIDE Afghanistan? Small arms fire would obviously not be feasible at that distance, especially given the mountainous terrain.
> 
> If it was small arms fire as is being alleged, and the distance of the base WRT the border is correct, then NATO troops were inside Pakistan and they have no excuse/reason to complain about 'being fired upon by Pakistani troops'.


 
Valid, if they were not chasing militants. But then it boils down to effective communication.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Pakistan's military disputes this version of events. Military officials say the posts were attacked without warning at 2 a.m, while most of the around 50 soldiers were sleeping, and that NATO helicopters and jets even attacked Pakistani military forces sent in as back-up during the two-hour assault. Pakistan says it has increased the number of soldiers at border posts like these as part of a campaign in Mohmand this year to wipe out the Taliban in the area.*
Afghans Say Pakistan Fired First in NATO Attack - WSJ.com

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## Karachihunk

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Muje aik baat samaj nahi aa rahi. Hundreds or thousands of innocent Tribals of FATA are killed in drone attacks by US...uss par kisi ne itna shor nahi machaya and now that 30 soldiers are killed, ghairat and temper has raised to the skies and there are talks of war with US...Kyun , civilians ka khoon sasta he aur foji ka mehanga?



this truely shows our hypocrisy dude.yahan mulq ki beizati hui hai so all internet warrior is on the forum showing their guts.aam aadmi ko to yahan ***** bhi nahi poochta.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> NATO conducts operations along the border quite often and their air support is probably in the air non-stop - tracking fighter jets in the air would not provide any indication of a potential attack on a Pakistani border post. Low flying helicopters would be hard to detect on radar in that terrain.



Even if there air support is in the air non stop, that actually gives more reason for Pak Radar operations to be on a higher alert all the time. Plus, a helo being slow speed does not travel 2.5 km in a blink of an eye.. And then the question of 2 attacks...Even if they were caught by surprise the 1st time (which itself is inexcusable) how come the second one went unchallenged as well..


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## Patriot

Our Leadership is spineless - The assault lasted for well over 2 hours.Why couldn't PAF scramble the jets from the nearest bases?

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How was this an 'open attack'? I am referring to US/Afghan ground forces covertly supporting terrorists attacking Pakistan or carrying out attacks themselves against Pakistan, being caught out and fired upon.



Was this revealed in the so called investigation by Pakistan.. I thought one version of the report said that the soldiers were sleeping when they were killed.


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## pakdefender

The HBS Guy said:


> The question is *WHY WOULD NATO TROOPS DO THIS?*



a. They are murderers who like killing muslims
b. indians and afghani forces have fed them stories about how Pakistan is responsible for their failures in afghanistan
c. They are hypocrites who pretend to be allies but infact are the enemy


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Pakistan's military disputes this version of events. Military officials say the posts were attacked without warning at 2 a.m, while most of the around 50 soldiers were sleeping, and that NATO helicopters and jets even attacked Pakistani military forces sent in as back-up during the two-hour assault. Pakistan says it has increased the number of soldiers at border posts like these as part of a campaign in Mohmand this year to wipe out the Taliban in the area.*
> Afghans Say Pakistan Fired First in NATO Attack - WSJ.com



2 hour assault ?? Where was PAF..?? There's more to it that meets the eye.. Wont be surprised if it was a secretly sanctioned operation by Pakistan Army like the drone strikes.. The attackers probably messed up on the target location though..


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## pakdefender

karan.1970 said:


> 2 hour assault ?? Where was PAF..?? There's more to it that meets the eye.. Wont be surprised if *it was a secretly sanctioned operation by Pakistan Army like the drone strikes*.. The attackers probably messed up on the target location though..



put in cork up where you pull out this type of garbage


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Was this revealed in the so called investigation by Pakistan.. I thought one version of the report said that the soldiers were sleeping when they were killed.


Please go back, read all the posts in that exchange with HBS, and understand the context.

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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> ............... Cheng is suggesting our nation should show caution as the US would pull their aid out. I say bring it on because their aid and charity has been one of the reasons why we have been suffering. ...............



I respect your differing opinion, but I stand by mine too.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Arguing against the 'status quo' is a necessary part of changing societal opinion - whether done by this government or the next.
> 
> Staying silent and not calling for change because of 'ground realities' offers nothing.
> 
> 'Building national character and strength' while also calling for a rejection of injustice and inequality in international policies towards Pakistan and building pressure on Pakistani institutions to take tangible steps to support their rhetoric are not mutually exclusive.



We are more alike than you may realize Sir! 



Santro said:


> What you are referring to is not done over easy..
> .......................
> To put it straight.
> 
> I just saw the coffins of 26 of my brothers draped in my flag.
> By blood boils, My BP has shot up.. my eyes went wet, My fist clenched.
> My "heart" wants LGB strikes on the Apache unit, their barracks.. their equipment.
> My "Mind" however, lets me know of the consequences of such a move and how ill prepared we are to handle such.
> 
> But that is my mind.. it may not be thinking along the lines of everybody else.
> 
> But my heart does have a lot in common with a large section of my nation.



My blood boils too, but it is tempered with wisdom of knowledge and age, as much as others don't see it.

The best revenge is NOT to rant and rave, but to remove the root causes that have brought us to this stage.

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## SQ8

karan.1970 said:


> Even if there air support is in the air non stop, that actually gives more reason for Pak Radar operations to be on a higher alert all the time. Plus, a helo being slow speed does not travel 2.5 km in a blink of an eye.. And then the question of 2 attacks...Even if they were caught by surprise the 1st time (which itself is inexcusable) how come the second one went unchallenged as well..



Most of your camp is resting, suddenly all hell breaks loose and people are dead.. you spend 5 minutes just trying to figure out what happened and then you get hit again.
the 2nd one was challenged.. albeit in futility.

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## Patriot

Chen I am sure you would have also defended the guy who gave the order to shot down Air Iran Civilian Flight.You even defended the lie that RD was a diplomat which in fact was later proved to be untrue.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> 2 hour assault ?? Where was PAF..?? There's more to it that meets the eye.. Wont be surprised if it was a secretly sanctioned operation by Pakistan Army like the drone strikes.. The attackers probably messed up on the target location though..


The PAF has not been the quickest to respond in many instances, such as troops being ambushed by the Taliban when carrying out operations - whether this is due to lack of coordination or resources or both I do not know.


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## karan.1970

Santro said:


> Most of your camp is resting, suddenly all hell breaks loose and people are dead.. you spend 5 minutes just trying to figure out what happened and then you get hit again.
> the 2nd one was challenged.. albeit in futility.



but the radar operators were not in the camp.. They would have tracked the ingress much before the camp was actually hit.. And one of the posts above talk about a 2 hour assault... 2 frikkin hours.. time enough for an F 16 to launch from Bangalore and reach Afg border in time to take out the helis..

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## iPhone

Devil Soul said:


> Pakistan buries troops amid fury over NATO strike
> By Express / Reuters
> Published: November 27, 2011
> The families of soldiers who were killed when Nato attacked a Pakistani checkpost in the Mohmand Agency on Saturday, buried their loved ones on Sunday.
> *
> The relatives of Major Mujahid Hussain and Captain Usman Ali said that the soldiers sacrificed their lives for the sake of their country, and they were proud of their sacrifices.*
> Major Mujahid Hussain hailed from Larkana, and had joined the Pakistan army nine years ago. His body will be taken to his native village after being honoured at the General Head Quarters and Pannu Aqil cantonment.
> His family said that they will not hesitate to offer any sacrifice for Pakistan.
> 
> *Captain Usman Ali from Sahiwal city, left behind a widow and a young daughter. The 23-year-old solder got married last year and was recently promoted to the rank of captain. Usmans father said his son joined the Pakistan army due to his patriotism.*
> 
> Nato helicopters and fighter jets attacked two Pakistan military outposts on Saturday, killing 24 soldiers in what Pakistan said was an unprovoked assault. Nato and US officials expressed regret about the deaths of the Pakistani soldiers, but the exact circumstances of the attack were unclear.
> 
> Fury over attack
> The attack was the latest perceived provocation by the United States, starting with the secret raid which killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in May, and the question is whether ties will break or whether the two sides will remain stuck in a bad marriage of convenience.
> US stabs Pakistan in the back, again, said a headline in the Daily Times, reflecting fury over the attack in Pakistan, a regional power seen as critical to US efforts to stabilise neighbouring Afghanistan.
> 
> Television stations showed the coffins of the soldiers draped in green and white Pakistani flags in a prayer ceremony at the headquarters of the regional command in Peshawar.
> 
> 
> AFP Photo



oh my god, look at this man 
recently married and left behind a young kid. she'll grow up without being in comfort of her father. tsk


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Even if there air support is in the air non stop, that actually gives more reason for Pak Radar operations to be on a higher alert all the time. Plus, a helo being slow speed does not travel 2.5 km in a blink of an eye.. And then the question of 2 attacks...Even if they were caught by surprise the 1st time (which itself is inexcusable) how come the second one went unchallenged as well..



1. Stand-off weapons would not require either helicopters or fighter jets to actually travel 2.5km into Pakistan to the base to attack it.

2. Terrain - low flying helicopters in mountainous terrain would be hard to detect on radar (even assuming full coverage - Pakistan does not have the resources to magically cover all of its western border through sophisticated airdefence and detection systems in a matter of months).


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## Bukhari.syed

All ways and support to NATO or America & its allies to be ended, let them do what they can without Pakistan. Afghanistan is like a pond of grease for them, they entered themselves but now they need a rope to get out. They should know they if they will try to cut the rope they will be "nowhere".....


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## SQ8

karan.1970 said:


> but the radar operators were not in the camp.. They would have tracked the ingress much before the camp was actually hit.. And one of the posts above talk about a 2 hour assault... 2 frikkin hours.. time enough for an F 16 to launch from Bangalore and reach Afg border in time to take out the helis..



By the time the troops realized it was NOT a Taliban attack, Not a ground attack.
The airforce was alerted, they may have responded by requesting where the violation of airspace occurred?
Pilots were not on alert, they were found and prepped.. 30 minutes went nowhere.

Now, why the airforce was not there as a show of force after the assault? THAT is the big question.
Which is where one is even more perplexed on the lax attitude of the military leadership after this.

This was no ordinary checkpost, it was a large camp. Why hit it at this hour?
Did somebody escape into Pakistan while this heinous attack took place?

I grieve for my brothers, but even I do have suspicions on the sincerity of the leadership in this event.
I dont support the stance of ISAF on this, nor will accept JUST an apology from the US.
But I want to know why my military leadership did not be more aggressive.

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 1. Stand-off weapons would not require either helicopters or fighter jets to actually travel 2.5km into Pakistan to the base to attack it.


I assume since the whole camp knew that they were attacked by helis, they did come within the visual range of the camp..



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 2. Terrain - low flying helicopters in mountainous terrain would be hard to detect on radar (even assuming full coverage - Pakistan does not have the resources to magically cover all of its western border through sophisticated airdefence and detection systems in a matter of months).


Pakistan has been fighting this war on its western border since years. Plus has been consistently claiming NATO's air space violations. What is Paksitan waiting for before providing this coverage. I would have expected for this to be done on a war footing after May..And remember, 2 Hours long assault..

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## Safriz

i wonder if pakistan troops had rifles powerful enogh to fire 2.5 miles away at afghan forces inside afghan border....
or they just went to the borders......fired at afghan forces then somehow ran bavk 2.5 miles and fell asleep..

and since when.US airforce started giving air support to afghan forces? they only give support to NATO and that too only to americans..
its all made up.


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## karan.1970

Santro said:


> By the time the troops realized it was NOT a Taliban attack, Not a ground attack.
> The airforce was alerted, they may have responded by requesting where the violation of airspace occurred?
> Pilots were not on alert, they were found and prepped.. 30 minutes went nowhere.



Frankly, I dont believe that with Abbotabad just 6 months old, Pakistan military has stepped down from an alert status on the Western border..There is something which none of us is aware of at this time which may/may not come out some where down the line

---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------




safriz said:


> i wonder if pakistan troops had rifles powerful enogh to fire 2.5 miles away at afghan forces inside afghan border....
> or they just went to the borders......fired at afghan forces then somehow ran bavk 2.5 miles and fell asleep..
> 
> and since when.US airforce started giving air support to afghan forces? they only give support to NATO and that too only to americans..
> its all made up.



err.. mortars?

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## Safriz

er....lol.
are you serious?


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## SQ8

karan.1970 said:


> Frankly, I dont believe that with Abbotabad just 6 months old, Pakistan military has stepped down from an alert status on the Western border..There is something which none of us is aware of at this time which may/may not come out some where down the line




I cannot agree or disagree with you there.
There is much more to know on the effectiveness of the American espionage and infiltration effort in Pakistan's military.


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## VSS

Investigation report should be out soon....Lets see what NATO says after that.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> I assume since the whole camp knew that they were attacked by helis, they did come within the visual range of the camp..


I believe ISPR reports indicated air strikes - not necessarily 'helicopter strikes' - examination of the posts after the incident along with accounts by the survivors would have made clear the kinds of weapons used - the Taliban tend to use RPG's and mortars at the most.


> Pakistan has been fighting this war on its western border since years. Plus has been consistently claiming NATO's air space violations. What is Paksitan waiting for before providing this coverage. I would have expected for this to be done on a war footing after May..And remember, 2 Hours long assault..


Pakistani has been fighting this war against the taliban for years, not against the US/NATO - the OBL incident would have been the first major cause for concern

But, as I pointed out earlier, Pakistan's CAS is lacking even when it comes to supporting troops that come under Taliban ambushes - there is a lack of coordination and/or capability here, especially when it comes to night time operations.

---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------




karan.1970 said:


> err.. mortars?


Indirect fire, and inaccurate without spotters/scouts to redirect fire, especially at night.

Not really a good explanation.


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## RafaleTyphoon

RIP to the dead..


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## lem34

VSS said:


> Investigation report should be out soon....Lets see what NATO says after that.



Without being cynical - it will depend on who actually does the investigating. Nato have in the past have managed to make lies true and vise versa. One must and cannot question the death of soldiers unprovoked and at night. I almost sense its almost as if it was cowards working overtime. Shame on all involved. Pray again for the brave defenders of our nation

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## RafaleTyphoon

PakShaheen79 said:


> Chill out man ... Aik do din gherat ka bukhar charhay ga aur phir hum purani tankhawa par "kam" jari karain gay
> 
> I feel really sorry for the men who lost their lives today. But there is nothing more which Pakistan can do right now in presence of current leadership (both military and political)... as said by Iqbal
> 
> Hai Jurme Zaifi Ki Saza Marg e Mafajaat!
> 
> (Death of your interests is the punishment of your weakness)



well said sir


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## American Pakistani

Pakistan must demand NATO for those murderers as well as compensation for the families of those soilders which should be, 0.8million US$ for injured, 2million US$ for martyred soilders & 2.8million US$ for commanders.


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## Guest01

nuclearpak said:


> As for the first paragraph, I have not seen the ISPR statement personally myself, nor have I heard it, what I said was exactly what was said to me by a Brigadier in the Armed Forces related to that area. So stop spewing nonsense. The area was cleared, everybody knows it , if you have contacts within. And 2 posts were not eliminated. Rather it was one post, or rather Company HQ , not a post, and it was attacked twice by helis.
> 
> As for the bolded part, just shows the respect for UN you guys have. This way, Iran has full rights to deny entry of IAEA people into their country.
> 
> And nowhere has it been said that it is national interest, and you have no proof so say other wise. The terrorists that attacked NATO in the first place, were not from across the border, they were on the Afghan side, and then fled into the pakistani side, as said by the NATO chief.
> 
> Why did the helis come there?
> 
> How did they possibly cross 2.5 km into Pak territory , is NATO so inept?
> 
> Was the pilot blind?
> 
> Stop spewing BS .



Look, I have also been travelling all day and the information that I gathered has been mostly from this thread. But I have a link here that says that 2 posts were strafed.

Afghans Say Pakistan Fired First in NATO Attack - WSJ.com

Further, it is all murky as to the cause of the incident. The Afghans claim that ISAF came under attack from the posts while they were moving against the terrorists. This modus operandi will not be suprising from PA, as ISAF has earlier too made claims that PA gives cover fire to the terrorists when ISAF moves in against them. So it is as probable that it would be a similar incident in this case too.

Why did they move in 2.5 Kilometers? Well you got to see the daylight once again. It is now an affirmed policy of NATO and US that they will remove people who will try to aid the terrorists. It was stated as clearly by US establishment after the Kabul Embassy sieze. That is in fact when Pakistan Army tried to hold off pressure and the "national interest" arose as the latest of the jargons in this murky saga of bedding with the Haqqanis. 

You would ask, and also another member asked earlier, what is the evidence of that. The evidence depends on which side one looks at. The US has been claiming that for long and mullen's statement was tantamount to even more than complicity of aiding and abetting. So take your pick. I took mine right after OBL was found juxtaposed to PMA in Abbottabad.

Re the commission of this act, I do not believe that the Pilot was blind or that this is an error. I also do not believe that this could have been possible without the green wire inputs from NATO/US top brass. This is not a battlefield but more a strategy decision. The fact that the terrorist were chased in to Pakistan and the fact that ISAF claims that they took fire from PA, it futher establishes that ISAF have decided that they will not allow PA to cover for the terrorists anymore. 

Someone said that the region is cleared, yet the terrorists were escaping in to Pakistan in that exact region. So I will not give in to the temptation of believing that the region is cleared of the right kind of terrorists by PA.

Re UN mandate and respect for international organizations, let us say that ISAF and US decided that they want to do a few things in the interest of their soldiers / national interest. That will not be an alien concept in the equation. Will it.

Hence my assertion that this is not a localized situation, this reflects larger policy change by US and NATO. They will not tolerate the protection that PA is seeking to provide to Taliban. The ball is now in Pakistan's court. If the Generals are still seeking to harbour the assets then they better now do it with less arrogance and visibility. At least keep the regulars out of harms way and do not put their lives on line. Rawalpindi is a comfortable place to take decisions from since the impact is so far away, however the chain is as strong as the weakest link.


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## Karachihunk

American Pakistani said:


> Pakistan must demand NATO for those murderers as well as compensation for the families of those soilders which should be, 0.8million US$ for injured, 2million US$ for martyred soilders & 2.8million US$ for commanders.



Did you get this quote from Zardari ? Shyte man how can we even think about this.We want these bastards to be killed mercilessly as they did with our soldiers.


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## Nitin Goyal

American Pakistani said:


> Pakistan must demand NATO for those murderers as well as compensation for the families of those soilders which should be, 0.8million US$ for injured, 2million US$ for martyred soilders & 2.8million US$ for commanders.



ridiculous .. shame on you

how a soldier's life is than a commander's life and why you are giving figure. they are invaluable


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## Areesh

Guest01 said:


> Hence my assertion that this is not a localized situation, this reflects larger policy change by US and NATO. They will not tolerate the protection that PA is seeking to provide to Taliban. The ball is now in Pakistan's court. *If the Generals are still seeking to harbour the assets then they better now do it with less arrogance and visibility.* At least keep the regulars out of harms way and do not put their lives on line. Rawalpindi is a comfortable place to take decisions from since the impact is so far away, however the chain is as strong as the weakest link.



One question: Good to see your Anti Pakistan rhetoric on work again. Anyways how are you going to confirm that they were indeed chasing the terrorists and it wasn't some trigger happy NATO soldiers who over dose with his night drinks?

Or is it just because of Pakistan and your bigotry with it that you are saying this.


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## pakdefender

Get it straight people , it all about attacking Muslim countries and killing us , etiher we defend our selves and retaliate or forever perrish!!! Its NOW OR NEVER!!

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## Guest01

Santro said:


> Most of your camp is resting, suddenly all hell breaks loose and people are dead.. you spend 5 minutes just trying to figure out what happened and then you get hit again.
> the 2nd one was challenged.. albeit in futility.



What Afghans claim is totally different. They claim that they came under fire first. Also the fact that PA is claiming that there were support troops sent in also conveys that no-one was sleeping. Regarding surprise that PAF was conspicous in absentia, calling in air support would have meant that Pakistan public could have been condoling many more of their men today. The objective was always to keep the situation localized and send a message to ISAF. The ISAF though clearly had different thoughts about how the dialogue should actually work.


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## American Pakistani

Karachihunk said:


> Did you get this quote from Zardari ? Shyte man how can we even think about this.We want these bastards to be killed mercilessly as they did with our soldiers.



You took it in wrong way, I said, PAKISTAN MUST DEMAND NATO FOR THOSE MURDERERS, this means Pakistan should demand NATO to hand over those murderers in Pakistan custody.

Next part is *as well as compensation for the families of those soilders which should be, 0.8million US$ for injured, 2million US$ for martyred soilders & 2.8million US$ for commanders.*, the families who had lost their loved ones & perhaps the sole income of their entire house must get some money or do you suggest they become beggers? Obviously those martyrs cannot come back & obviously there is no money equal to their precious lives & feeling they had for Pakistan but compensation is must for their families to survive. So think once befor posting crap.


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## Horizon303

Pakistan military top comand needs to re-visit its tatics, the difference between pak army & nato was close air support, it appears that our guys dont have close air support whether its war against terror or war against balouch separatist





.


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## American Pakistani

Nitin Goyal said:


> ridiculous .. shame on you
> 
> how a soldier's life is than a commander's life and why you are giving figure. they are invaluable



Hey dumb troll, commander's income is higher than regular soilder, it's about income. Otherwise the lost lives is not equal to whole money in the world, twice thrice or even 100 times. If you ask the martyred troops families if they want 1 trillion$ or their son, they will choose their son without wasting a sec.


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## lem34

I feel very let down by our civilian leadership. But thats nothing new we know them for what they are. If something a bit more tangible is not done on this occcasion of injustice by americans against pakistani people perhaps for example a permanent closure of supply routes I will lose faith in kayani. guys the fuel on those planes/helicopters used to kill our boys probably went thru pakistan to afghan. We need kyani to do something. If necessary we need ISI to launch an attack covertly which we can deny and avenge our fallen. After all ISI get blamed anyway even when there is no proof of supporting talban so they may as well get blamed for actually avenging our fallen.

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## Safriz

i have seen many dovumentaries on british soldiers in afghanistan and they complain that the USAF doesnt come to hel them even if they call them while in danger.
the claim that afghan forces called air strike and USAF came flying...is laughable

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## Areesh

safriz said:


> i have seen many dovumentaries on british soldiers in afghanistan and they complain that the USAF doesnt come to hel them even if they call them while in danger.
> the claim that afghan forces called air strike and USAF came flying...is laughable



Looks like they have some special relationship with Afghan soldiers.


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## Guest01

Areesh said:


> One question: Good to see your Anti Pakistan rhetoric on work again. Anyways how are you going to confirm that they were indeed chasing the terrorists and it wasn't some trigger happy NATO soldiers who over dose with his night drinks?
> 
> Or is it just because of Pakistan and your bigotry with it that you are saying this.



First, I am not anti Pakistan. I have many Pakistan friends who I treasure and look up all the while. Their mothers consider me just as theirs as my friends. And I am part of this diaspora in several countries. You will be surprised to know how great friends Indians and Pakistanis are and how easy and natural it is. Unlike the genetic dissertion that some members provide here. 

Since that you do not know me, I will not take offence on that. However, I am against Pakistani Army and its generals for their greed of power for which they resorted to opportunistic moves galore and today we have this situation of hate between our countries. If you read any of my posts, you will see that I clearly make the difference. This though has nothing to do with the topic.

Further to confirm if Afghans were indeed chasing the terrorists, I have been travelling past 14 hours and there have been several versions of events. You could chose to believe PA which says that the boys were sleeping. I do not. I cannot believe that 2 posts can be strafed and admitted support troops sent by PA and the boys were sleeping. I do not believe that the conflict was on for 2 hours and PA did not call in air support. If PA was innocent then there would have been escalation from the Pakistani side. Eithere these are all hollow noises and PA does not have any capability on the western front or PA just wanted to control a spiralling situation. 

All this gives credibility to what Afghans say and that seems to be the most logical information currently. Lastly, I am not a bigot but I have nothing to prove to you and I will just let that one go as well.


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## Safriz

Pakistanis protest at U.S. consulate after NATO attack | Reuters


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## pakdefender

this was an american act , one which stemmed from frustrations and failures they are facing in afghanistan for which they blame Pakistan


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## Irfan Baloch

The HBS Guy said:


> Mind you, NATO has reportedly refused to condemn the incident.
> 
> Which clearly means that NATO stands by its action.






are you nuts

why would they condemn their own attack? Its their own doing so they would appologise as they

they have apologised and expressed sorrow for the loss of life.

you dont condemn your * own * action!!! lol do you get that? I dont think so. Condemnation is always for someone elses action.

The condemnation is from the third party and the victim who sees the wrong in the action of the accused.

if you think you done something wrong then you will express your mistake and say sorry
thats what NATO has done.

and NO, they dont stand by their action because. clearly saying that it was a mistake and expressing sorrow doesnt mean standing by their action and they will never launch an inquiry into the incident that the NATO commander calls tragic and calls his Pakistani counterparts as comrades and expresses grief with their families.

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## Guest01

Horizon303 said:


> Pakistan military top comand needs to re-visit its tatics, the difference between pak army & nato was close air support, it appears that our guys dont have close air support whether its war against terror or war against balouch separatist.



No kind of air support that PA can muster will be enough to get out winner in a contact with ISAF. That is a given. The sooner this fact sinks in, the better it is. The clear message from this engagement is that if Pakistan wants to protect its sovereignity then the generals needs to understand that their regulars cannot provide cover for Taliban with this impunity. If that strategic change is not happening then the border is just a line in the sand.


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## VelocuR

Sigh, this news give me heavy headaches. Not good for health for everyone. Let me quit this thread. 

In my opinion, aside NATO supply closed temporarily and not possible Shamsi Airforce vacate, Pakistan can't do anything at all and Kiyani is pleasantly silent.

(unsubscripted this thread)

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## karan.1970

pakdefender said:


> put in cork up where you pull out this type of garbage



buddy.. I am not saying the attack on soldiers was sanctioned.. What I am trying to say is that there was probably a sanctioned operation against militants that involved helis.. Hence the response of PAF was not there..And the NATO force attacked the wrong area.. Dont get worked up upon nothing..


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## Gin ka Pakistan

foreign Aid is like a drug, an addiction for ruling class , Thank you India's for stopping the US military aid and the day Pakistan will be under embargo, hungry poor will kick the puppet rich class out - revolution comes from hunger, the land will be taken away from big landlords and be given to poor to grow - say no to aid and petty trade which makes the rich richer - for energy build oil pipe line from Iran.


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## lem34

Nitin Goyal said:


> That is not simple.. NATO will declare ISI a terrorist organisation and all kind of embargo and economic sanctions.



So what they blame isi on a daily basis. If we are going to get punished for stealing a lamb when we havent we might as well steal a lamb and have the benefit.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

foreign Aid is like a drug, an addiction for ruling class , Thank you India's for stopping the US military aid and the day Pakistan will be under embargo, hungry poor will kick the puppet rich class out - revolution comes from hunger, the land will be taken away from big landlords and be given to poor to grow - say no to aid and petty trade which makes the rich richer - for energy build oil pipe line from Iran.


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## SinoChallenger

GURU DUTT said:


> My freind so generous of china but here we are talking about *will* not will have?????????my dear what happened was sad but the crimminal thing is the response of GOP , ok for a minute imagine if the same thing would have happenned with China what would be your response???Did you got my point???Thanks .


*Militarization of the SCO in 2012-2013*

The cowardly attack on Pakistani soldiers will decisively strengthen the anti-US faction in Pakistan against the pro-US faction. A major deterioration of the relationship between Pakistan and the US due to the attack will likely lead China and Russia to agree to militarize the SCO in the next 1 or 2 years. China and Russia have been unable to agree on militarization for the past few years, but now many factor push toward militarization of the SCO:

1) In March 2012, China will be undergoing a leadership change. A pro-military, hardline leadership is coming to power in Beijing. 

2) Russia has a serious conflict with the US over missile defense in Eastern Europe and Syria. Russia's biggest dream is to trap and wound the US in Afghanistan the same way the US trapped and wounded USSR in Afghanistan in 1980's.

3) The US is acting more and more aggressively around the world, like taking military action against Libya. 

4) Popular unrest in the Middle East is destabilizing the whole region.

The most likely formula is to only let Pakistan into SCO, but not india (as Russia prefers but not China), because india wants to "remain neutral" but secretly favor USA against Russia / China. 

Once the alliance members are decided, then the SCO can strangle supplies to Afghanistan and hand the US a devastating defeat. The US will try to attack Pakistan by air and sea to save its troops in Afghanistan but China and Russia can send military equipment and advisors to counter them. Within a few months, all the coalition troops Afghanistan should have surrendered to the Taliban.

So it's very likely we'll see a final military showdown between SCO (composing of China, Russian, Central Asian -stans and Pakistan) versus US military with Afghanistan, Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean and possibly even Syria or Iran as theaters of war.

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## regular

karan.1970 said:


> 2 hour assault ?? Where was PAF..?? There's more to it that meets the eye.. Wont be surprised if it was a secretly sanctioned operation by Pakistan Army like the drone strikes.. The attackers probably messed up on the target location though..


PAF was sleeping too...don't U guyz think that they humans too....They not robots working 24/7....and I guess U might be right about the last two lines cuz there isalwayz something cooking behind the scenes who knows who is doing what..Plus India is involved too cuz they are the NATO allies too....


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I believe ISPR reports indicated air strikes - not necessarily 'helicopter strikes' - examination of the posts after the incident along with accounts by the survivors would have made clear the kinds of weapons used - the Taliban tend to use RPG's and mortars at the most.
> 
> Pakistani has been fighting this war against the taliban for years, not against the US/NATO - the OBL incident would have been the first major cause for concern



Drones have been around much longer than that..




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> But, as I pointed out earlier, Pakistan's CAS is lacking even when it comes to supporting troops that come under Taliban ambushes - there is a lack of coordination and/or capability here, especially when it comes to night time operations.



Which is exactly what I find strange given the focus on Air force in Pakistan Military..



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Indirect fire, and inaccurate without spotters/scouts to redirect fire, especially at night.
> 
> Not really a good explanation.


And who is to say there were no spotters..And given the terrain, the spotters could be anywhere overlooking from a hilltop etc...Actually in this terrain, mortars are the best short range attack option..


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## Bukhari.syed




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## Areesh

Guest01 said:


> First, I am not anti Pakistan. I have many Pakistan friends who I treasure and look up all the while. Their mothers consider me just as theirs as my friends. And I am part of this diaspora in several countries. You will be surprised to know how great friends Indians and Pakistanis are and how easy and natural it is. Unlike the genetic dissertion that some members provide here.


 
Lol. You think I am going to believe that considering your rhetoric on nearly every issue about Pakistan. Come on you are a perfect example how you guys are polluted to be a bigot in your country.Anyways.



> I do not. I cannot believe that 2 posts can be strafed and admitted support troops sent by PA and the boys were sleeping. I do not believe that the conflict was on for 2 hours and PA did not call in air support. If PA was innocent then there would have been escalation from the Pakistani side. Eithere these are all hollow noises and PA does not have any capability on the western front or PA just wanted to control a spiralling situation.



So it was just a pathetic assumption of events from you. Just because their was no support from PAF and it went for more than a hour you realized that they were chasing some terrorists. It could be because Pakistani military didn't want to escalate the situation out of their cowardice(higher command) and hence no action was taken against the aggressors. I would go with this part since we all know how pathetic and ***** boys of NATO are. They are known for being trigger happy for various reasons.



> All this gives credibility to what Afghans say and that seems to be the most logical information currently.



It is how you are assuming things with all the hatred you guys are fed with against Pakistan. A more neutral look on the events might be different.



> Lastly, I am not a bigot but I have nothing to prove to you and I will just let that one go as well.



Huh.


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## regular

SinoChallenger said:


> *Militarization of the SCO in 2012-2013*
> 
> The cowardly attack on Pakistani soldiers will decisively strengthen the anti-US faction in Pakistan against the pro-US faction. A major deterioration of the relationship between Pakistan and the US due to the attack will likely lead China and Russia to agree to militarize the SCO in the next 1 or 2 years. China and Russia have been unable to agree on militarization for the past few years, but now many factor push toward militarization of the SCO:
> 
> 1) In March 2012, China will be undergoing a leadership change. A pro-military, hardline leadership is coming to power in Beijing.
> 
> 2) Russia has a serious conflict with the US over missile defense in Eastern Europe and Syria. Russia's biggest dream is to trap and wound the US in Afghanistan the same way the US trapped and wounded USSR in Afghanistan in 1980's.
> 
> 3) The US is acting more and more aggressively around the world, like taking military action against Libya.
> 
> 4) Popular unrest in the Middle East is destabilizing the whole region.
> 
> The most likely formula is to only let Pakistan into SCO, but not india (as Russia prefers but not China), because india wants to "remain neutral" but secretly favor USA against Russia / China.
> 
> Once the alliance members are decided, then the SCO can strangle supplies to Afghanistan and hand the US a devastating defeat. The US will try to attack Pakistan by air and sea to save its troops in Afghanistan but China and Russia can send military equipment and advisors to counter them. Within a few months, all the coalition troops Afghanistan should have surrendered to the Taliban.
> 
> So it's very likely we'll see a final military showdown between SCO (composing of China, Russian, Central Asian -stans and Pakistan) versus US military with Afghanistan, Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean and possibly even Syria or Iran as theaters of war.


Yes that will be a great idea cuz this is the only solution to the brutal evil/hegemony of the US/NATO invasion within the whole region....


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## Sheikh Shakib Ahmed

Pakistan is still suffering by the problem which is created by Ayub Khan in military and by this way Ayub Khan did everything for which Bangladeshi people are still struggling. We are also lacked about security. These feudal people are responsible for this fate of Pakistan. People should come forward to establish the right of the people. We are greatly shocked and sympathetic and we are in the same consequence which was initiated by collaborator Ayub Khan.

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## Guest01

Areesh said:


> Lol. You think I am going to believe that considering your rhetoric on nearly every issue about Pakistan. Come on you are a perfect example how you guys are polluted to be a bigot in your country.Anyways.



Does it look like I care for what you think?



Areesh said:


> So it was just a pathetic assumption of events from you. Just because their was no support from PAF and it went for more than a hour you realized that they were chasing some terrorists. It could be because Pakistani military didn't want to escalate the situation out of their cowardice(higher command) and hence no action was taken against the aggressors. I would go with this part since we all know how pathetic and ***** boys of NATO are. They are known for being trigger happy for various reasons.




You choose to call them cowards for not showing up. I call them conniving for the same. It makes no difference to what happened and in no way disprove the fact that PAF was absent when the aerial engagement was on for hours. However what message goes to PA from this incident will make a difference to whether this will happen in future.



Areesh said:


> It is how you are assuming things with all the hatred you guys are fed with against Pakistan. A more neutral look on the events might be different.



Whatever makes you sleep better and it is off topic anyway.

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## lem34

Nitin Goyal said:


> It is all about leverages.. pakistan do not have much leverages against NATO. Don't let the flame died which is burning inside you, use this energy constructively to make Pakistan a economic powerhouse like Iran so that no one can mess with you. Short term solution may lead to mutual destruction.



The flame that the quaid lit in us will never die. Its only a matter of time. Russia which did not have supply problems were defeated in afghanistan. Americans lashing out and killing innocent pakistanis will not save them from their inevitable defeat in afghanistan. RIP our shaheeds. Sooner our leaders will have to bow to public opinion and cut links with american bastarxs

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## S-A-B-E-R->

SinoChallenger said:


> *Militarization of the SCO in 2012-2013*
> 
> The cowardly attack on Pakistani soldiers will decisively strengthen the anti-US faction in Pakistan against the pro-US faction. A major deterioration of the relationship between Pakistan and the US due to the attack will likely lead China and Russia to agree to militarize the SCO in the next 1 or 2 years. China and Russia have been unable to agree on militarization for the past few years, but now many factor push toward militarization of the SCO:
> 
> 1) In March 2012, China will be undergoing a leadership change. A pro-military, hardline leadership is coming to power in Beijing.
> 
> 2) Russia has a serious conflict with the US over missile defense in Eastern Europe and Syria. Russia's biggest dream is to trap and wound the US in Afghanistan the same way the US trapped and wounded USSR in Afghanistan in 1980's.
> 
> 3) The US is acting more and more aggressively around the world, like taking military action against Libya.
> 
> 4) Popular unrest in the Middle East is destabilizing the whole region.
> 
> The most likely formula is to only let Pakistan into SCO, but not india (as Russia prefers but not China), because india wants to "remain neutral" but secretly favor USA against Russia / China.
> 
> Once the alliance members are decided, then the SCO can strangle supplies to Afghanistan and hand the US a devastating defeat. The US will try to attack Pakistan by air and sea to save its troops in Afghanistan but China and Russia can send military equipment and advisors to counter them. Within a few months, all the coalition troops Afghanistan should have surrendered to the Taliban.
> 
> So it's very likely we'll see a final military showdown between SCO (composing of China, Russian, Central Asian -stans and Pakistan) versus US military with Afghanistan, Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean and possibly even Syria or Iran as theaters of war.


ammmm WW3?


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## Guest01

Aryan_B said:


> The flame that the quaid lit in us will never die. Its only a matter of time. Russia which did not have supply problems were defeated in afghanistan. Americans lashing out and killing innocent pakistanis will not save them from their inevitable defeat in afghanistan. RIP our shaheeds. Sooner our leaders will have to bow to public opinion and cut links with american bastarxs



How can this naive assertion of beating USSR still be holding valid? Was the misinformation so effectively imbibed. Smell the coffee, it is not called Charlie's war for nothing. 

The only trump that Pakistan is currently holding is the supply route. Just hope that it does not outlive its importance - whatever little is left.


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## Jango

karan.1970 said:


> the one in bold is the key question, considering
> 
> 1. there were 2 attacks
> 2. The radars should have been tracking NATO helis much before they crossed the border



Because any Radar controller or ATC would tell you that helicopters flying very low, as possibly in this case, are virtually impossible to track, unless the radar is placed in every valley.


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## lem34

Guest01 said:


> How can this naive assertion of beating USSR still be holding valid? Was the misinformation so effectively imbibed. Smell the coffee, it is not called Charlie's war for nothing.
> 
> The only trump that Pakistan is currently holding is the supply route. Just hope that it does not outlive its importance - whatever little is left.



It is accepted even in the west that nato and america are on a losing wicket in afghanistan. The only people in the world that think otherwise is indians who hope america will assist them against china etc. Anyway if you want to talk about these topics go to other threads. We are hurt by the loss of innocent lives and we dont need indians (on the whole our enemies) to tell us there is little we can do about these barbaric and unjust actions of whites in our neighbourhood,

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## Areesh

Guest01 said:


> Does it look like I care for what you think?



I know. 



> You choose to call them cowards for not showing up. I call them conniving for the same.



Since you are an Indian. So......



> It makes no difference to what happened and in no way disprove the fact that PAF was absent when the aerial engagement was on for hours.



Since when did I deny that PAF was absent. And I stated the most possible reason as well.



> However what message goes to PA from this incident will make a difference to whether this will happen in future.



This assumption seems to be based on that flawed assumption that they were indeed chasing terrorists. Hence flawed.



> However what message goes to PA from this incident will make a difference to whether this will happen in future.



Again I know. Was just telling you the reason that why you derived that conclusion.


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## Jango

superkaif said:


> Clearly this is an emotional thread and has obviously riled several peoples nerves. One has to focus on the facts and these are 28 Pakistani soldiers have been killed in an unprovoked attack. Why the heck we have had so many off topic things brought up is as far as im concerned disrespectful. We can speculate on what course of action Pakistan will take and the repecussions of such action etc but please lets attempt to respect all. Not the right thread to troll or gain browny points for personal agendas.
> I believe our nation has been shocked and outraged at this and will demand a vigorous response.
> Pakistan should not fear sanctions and must remember how sanctions in the 1990s effected our economy - it helped us and sanctions helped pull our fingers out. Cheng is suggesting our nation should show caution as the US would pull their aid out. I say bring it on because their aid and charity has been one of the reasons why we have been suffering. Only people would be effectd would be our corrupto politicos as we never see the aid anyway.


 
It really saddens one, seeing the video of the funeral proceedings of the shaheed soldiers, in coffins , draped with Pakistani flags, and then being marched on, all the while 'aye watan kay jawano' being played on the background.

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## Hulk

Bukhari.syed said:


>



Even 16% or 18% is way too high, almost 1/6 of total budget is taken by armed forces.

About not using vehicles for personal purpose, are you serious? That will be awesome.


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## Hulk

Tshering22 said:


> The last time I heard about this base, wasn't it under UAEAF command or something? Sorry but who is exactly commanding the base right now? Kinda confusing.



I think PA keeps fooling people. Also there are lot of people who are directly or indirectly related to armed forces. They try to their level best to defend the armed forces and feed incorrect information, maybe due to loyalty.


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## Jango

Santro said:


> To put it straight.
> 
> I just saw the coffins of 26 of my brothers draped in my flag.
> By blood boils, My BP has shot up.. my eyes went wet, My fist clenched.
> My "heart" wants LGB strikes on the Apache unit, their barracks.. their equipment.
> My "Mind" however, lets me know of the consequences of such a move and how ill prepared we are to handle such.
> 
> But that is my mind.. it may not be thinking along the lines of everybody else.
> 
> But my heart does have a lot in common with a large section of my nation.



My grandmother, who saw her family go to the '65 war, cried when she saw that video.

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## Guest01

Aryan_B said:


> It is accepted even in the west that nato and america are on a losing wicket in afghanistan. The only people in the world that think otherwise is indians who hope america will assist them against china etc. Anyway if you want to talk about these topics go to other threads. We are hurt by the loss of innocent lives and we dont need indians (on the whole our enemies) to tell us there is little we can do about these barbaric and unjust actions of whites in our neighbourhood,



Like they say, half knowledge is dangerous knowledge. It is indeed accepted in US and west that Afghanistan war is going nowhere, the caveat, till Pakistan stops the support to Taliban. That is the bottomline. So once again to reiterate, this strategy of PA generals is getting things closer home!

Re what Indians think, relax, we have been here when Pakistan was part of SEATO / CENTO, we have had China and Pakistan with us always. We will be fine in our own poor, inferior way. Thanks.

My participation here is not to rub any salt there. I strongly believe that if the Pakistani Army strategy of supporting its prodigal assets continue, this problem will just grow endemic and the region will be in a mess. And about the color. So what is the color of the money then?

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## SMC

Guest01 said:


> Like they say, half knowledge is dangerous knowledge. It is indeed accepted in US and west that Afghanistan war is going nowhere, the caveat, till Pakistan stops the support to Taliban. That is the bottomline. So once again to reiterate, this strategy of PA generals is getting things closer home!
> 
> Re what Indians think, relax, we have been here when Pakistan was part of SEATO / CENTO, we have had China and Pakistan with us always. We will be fine in our own poor, inferior way. Thanks.
> 
> My participation here is not to rub any salt there. I strongly believe that if the Pakistani Army strategy of supporting its prodigal assets continue, this problem will just grow endemic and the region will be in a mess. And about the color. So what is the color of the money then?



I am afraid the claims about supporting Taliban are just mere conspiracy theories... They're backed with no solid evidence.

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## lem34

Guest01 said:


> My participation here is not to rub any salt there.



If that was true you wouldnt have to say it. Our enemies are thousands of miles away yours encircle you I look forward to trolling like you when indians lose their lives in future. Its nice of you to remind us that you indians are our enemy


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## Jango

Guest01 said:


> Look, I have also been travelling all day and the information that I gathered has been mostly from this thread. But I have a link here that says that 2 posts were strafed.
> 
> Afghans Say Pakistan Fired First in NATO Attack - WSJ.com
> 
> Further, it is all murky as to the cause of the incident. The Afghans claim that ISAF came under attack from the posts while they were moving against the terrorists. This modus operandi will not be suprising from PA, as ISAF has earlier too made claims that PA gives cover fire to the terrorists when ISAF moves in against them. So it is as probable that it would be a similar incident in this case too.
> 
> Why did they move in 2.5 Kilometers? Well you got to see the daylight once again. It is now an affirmed policy of NATO and US that they will remove people who will try to aid the terrorists. It was stated as clearly by US establishment after the Kabul Embassy sieze. That is in fact when Pakistan Army tried to hold off pressure and the "national interest" arose as the latest of the jargons in this murky saga of bedding with the Haqqanis.
> 
> You would ask, and also another member asked earlier, what is the evidence of that. The evidence depends on which side one looks at. The US has been claiming that for long and mullen's statement was tantamount to even more than complicity of aiding and abetting. So take your pick. I took mine right after OBL was found juxtaposed to PMA in Abbottabad.
> 
> Re the commission of this act, I do not believe that the Pilot was blind or that this is an error. I also do not believe that this could have been possible without the green wire inputs from NATO/US top brass. This is not a battlefield but more a strategy decision. The fact that the terrorist were chased in to Pakistan and the fact that ISAF claims that they took fire from PA, it futher establishes that ISAF have decided that they will not allow PA to cover for the terrorists anymore.
> 
> Someone said that the region is cleared, yet the terrorists were escaping in to Pakistan in that exact region. So I will not give in to the temptation of believing that the region is cleared of the right kind of terrorists by PA.
> 
> Re UN mandate and respect for international organizations, let us say that ISAF and US decided that they want to do a few things in the interest of their soldiers / national interest. That will not be an alien concept in the equation. Will it.
> 
> Hence my assertion that this is not a localized situation, this reflects larger policy change by US and NATO. They will not tolerate the protection that PA is seeking to provide to Taliban. The ball is now in Pakistan's court. If the Generals are still seeking to harbour the assets then they better now do it with less arrogance and visibility. At least keep the regulars out of harms way and do not put their lives on line. Rawalpindi is a comfortable place to take decisions from since the impact is so far away, however the chain is as strong as the weakest link.


 
Yes, two posts did come under attack.

Now , the Pakistani post was 2.5 km inside the border, so , how did the small arms fire, most probably G-3 or AK-47 reach the NATO forces? Bullets don't travel 2.5 km mate. And if they were inside the border when fired upon, the PA soldiers had every right to do so. Or did the PA run to the border, fired some shots, then they came back, and slept, and were dumfounded at the sight of helis attacking?

This thing of yours that PA was supporting the infiltration of terrorists is preposterous. Terrorists infiltrate the porous border at will, PERIOD. Why would PA fight them, take casualties, and then support them?


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## IranZamin

why not closing the US embassy ?

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## Areesh

nuclearpak said:


> It really saddens one, seeing the video of the funeral proceedings of the shaheed soldiers, in coffins , draped with Pakistani flags, and then being marched on, all the while 'aye watan kay jawano' being played on the background.


 
I also felt the same but I think this would give a reality check to all those thousand of youth who wants to join Pakistani military? They might realize that joining Pakistani military is a kind of job where even your organization don't care if you die in the field. So better do something else instead joining this military.

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## karan.1970

nuclearpak said:


> Because any Radar controller or ATC would tell you that helicopters flying very low, as possibly in this case, are virtually impossible to track, unless the radar is placed in every valley.



So is the Western border of Pakistan indefensible ??


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## Guest01

Aryan_B said:


> If that was true you wouldnt have to say it. Our enemies are thousands of miles away yours encircle you I look forward to trolling like you when indians lose their lives in future. Its nice of you to remind us that you indians are our enemy



Whatever sails your boat bro. When you look into an abyss, the abyss ooks bak at you. So we will carry our load.

My only disappointment is that you did not move beyond the words you quoted. But truth has a funny way of popping out in the open. Us to our predicaments then. I am going to leave it there with you.


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## Jango

karan.1970 said:


> So is the Western border of Pakistan indefensible ??


 
No , it is defensible, very much so. 

But , in that terrain, the Heli constantly gets in the line of the radar and then vanish. The controller would see a beep in one go, but in the next cycle, he would see nothing, and it would remain like this. The controller could make it a malfunction of the instruments.

Although, the response could have been better , if the attack also happened the second time around.


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## Jango

Pakistan gives US 2-week ultimatum to abandon 'secret' airbase and closes border | Mail Online


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## Guest01

nuclearpak said:


> Yes, two posts did come under attack.
> 
> Now , the Pakistani post was 2.5 km inside the border, so , how did the small arms fire, most probably G-3 or AK-47 reach the NATO forces? Bullets don't travel 2.5 km mate. And if they were inside the border when fired upon, the PA soldiers had every right to do so. Or did the PA run to the border, fired some shots, then they came back, and slept, and were dumfounded at the sight of helis attacking?
> 
> This thing of yours that PA was supporting the infiltration of terrorists is preposterous. Terrorists infiltrate the porous border at will, PERIOD. Why would PA fight them, take casualties, and then support them?



First you got to do justice to your soldiers by stopping this "shot in sleep" thing. Anyone who will know even a little bit about forces will know that people do not sleep on the border post. All of them do not sleep together. There is a guard all the while and even those who sleep do so with the arms in reach.

Further to your comments about the post being 2.5 Kilometers inside the border, you are correct. There could have been several scenarios, one wherein ISAF chased the Taliban in to Pakistan and in the range of small arms combat situation with PA men. Other wherein PA actually had more than small arms (not possible?) amongst a few other scenarios.

Re the supporting Taliban, I will just take Mullen's words on this one even if you may believe them to be preposterous. And it is anyway a stated policy that Pakistan will fight the terrorists of its choosing at a time of its choosing and location of its choosing. You are right, a lot of room for infiltration in between for terrorists that are not the type of PA's choosing.


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## Areesh

nuclearpak said:


> Pakistan gives US 2-week ultimatum to abandon 'secret' airbase and closes border | Mail Online



They aren't going to abandon the base. So......


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## karan.1970

nuclearpak said:


> No , it is defensible, very much so.
> 
> But , in that terrain, the Heli constantly gets in the line of the radar and then vanish. The controller would see a beep in one go, but in the next cycle, he would see nothing, and it would remain like this. The controller could make it a malfunction of the instruments.
> 
> Although, the response could have been better , if the attack also happened the second time around.



Its the 2 hour assault duration that has me curious.. Specially when PAF didnt even make an appearance at all..


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## Jango

Guest01 said:


> First you got to do justice to your soldiers by stopping this "shot in sleep" thing. Anyone who will know even a little bit about forces will know that people do not sleep on the border post. All of them do not sleep together. There is a guard all the while and even those who sleep do so with the arms in reach.
> 
> Further to your comments about the post being 2.5 Kilometers inside the border, you are correct. There could have been several scenarios, one wherein ISAF chased the Taliban in to Pakistan and in the range of small arms combat situation with PA men. Other wherein PA actually had more than small arms (not possible?) amongst a few other scenarios.
> 
> Re the supporting Taliban, I will just take Mullen's words on this one even if you may believe them to be preposterous. And it is anyway a stated policy that Pakistan will fight the terrorists of its choosing at a time of its choosing and location of its choosing. You are right, a lot of room for infiltration in between for terrorists that are not the type of PA's choosing.



Did I mention anywhere that the whole of the post was sleeping? There is always a night duty. The quarter guard, the duty NCO, the duty JCO, the DQ, the sentrys at the lowest level, the company Havaldar etc etc. I know about this okay , so grow up out of your dilemma that you know everything.

And as you said, the ISAF soldiers did come into Pakistan, then Pakistan has every right to shoot them.


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## Jango

karan.1970 said:


> Its the 2 hour assault duration that *has me curious.*. Specially when PAF didnt even make an appearance at all..



...ain't we all.


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## Jango

Protectionist Gareth said:


> Nice personal attack....can't reply maturely so get down with the cheap mentality..
> typical.
> I wonder why China is maintaining silence,when 'it has been attacked'



CJCSC has met the Chinese envoy to Pakistan today.


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## Guest01

nuclearpak said:


> Did I mention anywhere that the whole of the post was sleeping? There is always a night duty. The quarter guard, the duty NCO, the duty JCO, the DQ, the sentrys at the lowest level, the company Havaldar etc etc. I know about this okay , so grow up out of your dilemma that you know everything.
> 
> And as you said, the ISAF soldiers did come into Pakistan, then Pakistan has every right to shoot them.



You got to read what you wrote again. And mind you, it was 2 posts so there will be warning. Now whether ISAF soldiers were indeed in Pakistan or was another scenario is a matter of choosing. You obviously picked up the convenient ones from what I offered. And of course you missed commenting on the reason for all this.


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## 888jamie888

Clearly NATO is at fault here, but as for it being deliberate...I don't think so. What does NATO stand to gain from attacking Pakistan? I honestly think it was a mistake, albeit a very costly one.


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## Jango

Guest01 said:


> You got to read what you wrote again. And mind you, it was 2 posts so there will be warning. Now whether ISAF soldiers were indeed in Pakistan or was another scenario is a matter of choosing. You obviously picked up the convenient ones from what I offered. And of course you missed commenting on the reason for all this.



What did you write that I conveniently left out? Sorry, but please write again, or point it out.


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## anon45

Afghan soldiers called in deadly NATO airstrike - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

Well now, this is a real clusterfuck.

Apparently Pakistani troops thought Afghani troops were Taliban and fired upon them and an airstrike on the location was called. The outpost was thought to be Taliban and the rest is history.

Also read that these were army soldiers and not Frontier corps. RIP to the dead, speedy recovery to the wounded.


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## Jango

anon45 said:


> Afghan soldiers called in deadly NATO airstrike - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times
> 
> Well now, this is a real clusterfuck.
> 
> Apparently Pakistani troops thought Afghani troops were Taliban and fired upon them and an airstrike on the location was called. The outpost was thought to be Taliban and the rest is history.
> 
> Also read that these were army soldiers and not Frontier corps. RIP to the dead, speedy recovery to the wounded.



Well Sherlock, I did not know G-3 and AK-47 could fire 2.5 km, the distance from the HQ to the border. Or did the PA soldiers went to the border, came back like Usain Bolt, and then got into their base.

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## American Pakistani

Protesters, who are demonstrating against a NATO cross-border attack, burn an effigy representing the U.S. in Karachi, November 27, 2011.


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## Devil Soul

Capt Usman Shaheed ...Age of his Daughter 2.5 month ......

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## Safriz

sheikh rasheed on ARY says it was a a deliberate attack


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## unicorn

anon45 said:


> Afghan soldiers called in deadly NATO airstrike - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times
> 
> Well now, this is a real clusterfuck.
> 
> Apparently Pakistani troops thought Afghani troops were Taliban and fired upon them and an airstrike on the location was called. The outpost was thought to be Taliban and the rest is history.
> 
> Also read that these were army soldiers and not Frontier corps. RIP to the dead, speedy recovery to the wounded.



Western media is giving a lot of twists to the story. Regardless of what ever the stories or whatever the explanation will be given to Pakistan, I just hope Pakistani top brass just don't buy any jargon this time.


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## American Pakistani

Devil Soul said:


> Capt Usman Shaheed ...Age of his Daughter 2.5 month ......



Oh God, that's so sad.

Rest In Heaven to the fallen soldiers.

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## Jango

safriz said:


> sheikh rasheed on ARY says it was a a deliberate attack



DG ISPR has said it, the Government , insiders have said it, the analysts have said it.

It was such an act, that believing that it was a mistake is impossible.

Especially if it was a 2 hour attack as said.

For all his cons, Sheikh Rashid is one of the few people who knows the sentiments of the common man, he sits in the streets, eats there, shops there. He knows the emotions running down in the streets.

Once he said' main nay haweli say banday ko nechay wali dukan par bheja pyaz lay aye, us nay kaha pyaz ki qeemat 20 rupay barh gayi' . and then he went down and asked himself.


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## 888jamie888

safriz said:


> sheikh rasheed on ARY says it was a a deliberate attack


Why though? What were they trying to achieve? It doesn't make sense.

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## American Pakistani

November 27, 2011
*Pakistan Orders US Out of Airbase *

Pakistan has ordered the United States to move out of an airbase on its territory, after shutting down NATO's two main overland supply routes into Afghanistan. Popular anger is mounting in Pakistan after NATO's killing of 24 Pakistani military personnel in a cross-border airstrike Saturday.

American forces have been given 15 days to vacate the Shamsi airbase in southwestern Pakistan, where the U.S. sometimes lands unmanned drone aircraft used to attack militants on Pakistani territory.

Pakistan ordered the departure a day after choking off the two main land routes for moving nonlethal supplies to U.S.-led NATO forces in Afghanistan.

NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen says Saturday's killing of 24 Pakistani soldiers by U.S. aircraft was a &#8220;tragic unintended accident.&#8221; He has told Pakistan's prime minister the attack was as &#8220;unacceptable and deplorable as the deaths of Afghan and international personnel.&#8221;

With a NATO investigation into the matter pending, Pakistan's Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar telephoned U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to convey the &#8220;deep sense of rage&#8221; in Pakistan. She said the attack demonstrated &#8220;complete disregard for international law and human life, and... negates the progress made by the two countries on improving relations.&#8221; Clinton responded by saying she was deeply saddened, and promised to work with Pakistan on the issue.

Pakistan also is reexamining its decision to attend a major Afghanistan peace conference in Bonn next month, but has made no final announcement.

Retired Lieutenant General Talat Masood, an expert on Pakistan's strategic affairs, says the killings have dealt a severe blow to the already negative perceptions of the U.S. among Pakistanis.

&#8220;The majority of the people think that it was an aggression committed by the U.S. by design. The public sentiment has become very anti-American," Masood stated. "And, of course, it gives a big handle to the media to spread the nationalist frenzy.&#8221;

Pakistani television networks broadcast images of the soldiers' funerals Sunday. Soldiers' coffins were draped in the Pakistani flag and airlifted to their respective hometowns for burial.

Masood says a thorough and transparent investigation into why and how the airstrike took place may have a chance at soothing some of the anger in this country.

&#8220;I think if the investigation takes place in which Pakistan is taken into full confidence, and if the truth comes out that this was a gross miscalculation on the part of some of the intelligence people - and they apologize, and they compensate - I think it would make definitely a difference,&#8221; Masood said.

Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden used Afghanistan as a base to plan and execute the terror attacks of September 11, 2001. U.S. special forces killed bin Laden in a Pakistan compound earlier this year. U.S.-led NATO forces in Afghanistan have faced a constant challenge with the Pakistan border, which is frequently crossed by Pakistan-based militants.

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## fd24

VCheng said:


> Let us wait for the final report, shall we?



Either you are delibrately trying to be cute or simply playing with us.
Since who has decided there will or is an independent report being prepared? The report will be done by those that have an agenda and the only party here to reconstruct the events to suit and passify their actions.
Cheng - you are mature enough to know that time is precious in handling an international incident of this nature. Todays news is fresh in the memory - by end of next week they will hope for a dilution of whats happened. Sadly they are mistaken this time - we will not forget.
My opinion is you are the only person bearing a pakistani flag on this site that openly has a dislike for our nation. The public distaste of anything Pakistani is an unhealthy one. I pray the future is bright for Pakistan and things get a turn for the better. Please stop repetatively repeating where your loyalties lie because one feels the lady protesteth too much and we dont believe it anymore.

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## W.11

888jamie888 said:


> Why though? What were they trying to achieve? It doesn't make sense.



so does it make sense to attack on pakistan post and kill not 1, not 2, not 3 but 28 soldiers

you guys have already killed our 2 soldiers before, now how could you repeat the mistake if it was one??


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## Devil Soul



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## Hulk

Devil Soul said:


> Capt Usman Shaheed ...Age of his Daughter 2.5 month ......



Very sad indeed.


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## W.11

Devil Soul said:


> Capt Usman Shaheed ...Age of his Daughter 2.5 month ......


 
and what about thousands of pakistani mothers, fathers, sons and daughters who have been grieving on this, i mean long before this daughter lost his father, there are poor people will tragic stories like these

hopefully the family will get big big lands and compensation on their lose, but what about the poor pakistanis who dont even have any hopes of compensation

contrary to the matter, common pakistanis have not sworn to lay their lives, its the soldier duty to risk his life for that and for they recieve big pays and big compensations


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## baqai

^ that pic made me cry


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## Jango

KarachiPunk said:


> and what about thousands of pakistani mothers, fathers, sons and daughters who have been grieving on this, i mean long before this daughter lost his father, there are poor people will tragic stories like these
> 
> hopefully the family will get big big lands and compensation on their lose, but what about the poor pakistanis who dont even have any hopes of compensation
> 
> contrary to the matter, common pakistanis have not sworn to lay their lives, its the soldier duty to risk his life for that and for they recieve big pays and big compensations



You can't blame them for it!

Civilians is a matter of the Govt. Your beloved PPP could not keep it's promises, and provide ample support to the affected.

The army does to it's soldiers.

Everybody feels sorry for everyone injured or killed in every incident like this, but that post was just dis respectful to the family of the Shaheed and the Shaheed himself.


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## raavan

Aryan_B said:


> I feel very let down by our civilian leadership. But thats nothing new we know them for what they are. If something a bit more tangible is not done on this occcasion of injustice by americans against pakistani people perhaps for example a permanent closure of supply routes I will lose faith in kayani. guys the fuel on those planes/helicopters used to kill our boys probably went thru pakistan to afghan. We need kyani to do something. If necessary we need ISI to launch an attack covertly which we can deny and avenge our fallen. After all ISI get blamed anyway even when there is no proof of supporting talban so they may as well get blamed for actually avenging our fallen.



That can prove to be very counter productive.How can u not know that if u retaliate straightaway they will get a pretext to kill more pakistani soldiers...


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## unicorn

Santro said:


> I just saw the coffins of 26 of my brothers draped in my flag.
> By blood boils, My BP has shot up.. my eyes went wet, My fist clenched.
> My "heart" wants LGB strikes on the Apache unit, their barracks.. their equipment.
> *My "Mind" however, lets me know of the consequences of such a move and how ill prepared we are to handle such.*
> 
> *But that is my mind.. it may not be thinking along the lines of everybody else.*
> 
> But my heart does have a lot in common with a large section of my nation.



What your mind will think if they replicate such sort of attack within next 24 hours? 

An Enemy will never attack you if he knows that befitting reply will come from the other side.We have never shown any spine and if we push our self back again and again I can guarantee you that more of our soldiers will be bombed to death in the future.A an that is the reality.This incident is the sixth of it's kind, means previously five time our soldiers are bombed to death and we have done nothing.

Nothing is simply what you are suggesting my friend

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## Awesome

Why 15 days? 15 days is a lifetime in Pakistani politics. If I was in charge, pakar ke nikaalta. In 15 days the situation would turn.

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## Jango

Asim Aquil said:


> Why 15 days? 15 days is a lifetime in Pakistani politics. If I was in charge, pakar ke nikaalta. In 15 days the situation would turn.



Yeah, just like the Haqqani thing, everything will cool down after 2 days, and nobody will care about what happened, life will move on for those who matter, the ordinary would still have this embossed on their memory in black and white. The emotions will cool down, the media will shut up, and nobody will give a moments thought after 15 days that 'oa, amreekion nay base khali kiya keh nhn?'.

This people need to be kicked out ASAP.

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## Awesome

US personnel should be arrested and interrogated and investigated.

This attack was coordinated with the US personnel in Pakistan. It was a mission of some sorts like the Osama raid which got intercepted.

If they can't do this, then we have a shame military and civilian leadership that itself should be given 15 days to leave Pakistan.

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## Bratva

*A year ago, a U.S. helicopter attack killed two Pakistani soldiers posted on the border. A joint U.S.-Pakistan investigation found that Pakistani troops fired at the two U.S. helicopters prior to the attack, a move the probe said was likely meant to notify the aircraft of their presence after they passed into Pakistani airspace.*

Afghan soldiers called in deadly NATO airstrike - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

---------- Post added at 10:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------

Americans are so happy trigger now a days they use their brain zero percent. Perfect case of Shoot FIRST, ASK QUESTIONS LATTER

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## taji67

safriz said:


> sheikh rasheed on ARY says it was a a deliberate attack



This is sad. Condolences to the brave victims/families in PAK army.

Perhaps it was a mistaken deliberate attack. Nato/ISAF must have thought they were being fired on, perhaps they were by nearby taliban. Hard to believe NATO/ISAF would deliberately wipe out an outpost. 

The Americans killed many innocent in Iraq, but mostly it was "the fog of war" or mistaken identity never did I see it done as a deliberate policy act.


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## Jango

Asim Aquil said:


> US personnel should be arrested and interrogated and investigated.
> 
> This attack was coordinated with the US personnel in Pakistan. It was a mission of some sorts like the Osama raid which got intercepted.
> 
> If they can't do this, then we have a shame military and civilian leadership that itself should be given 15 days to leave Pakistan.



Well then, get ready to be disappointed.

US personnel, as already said by a retired Lt gen, most probably had a hand in giving the exact location , and setting up this whole op.

I refuse to accept this as an accident.


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## rai_kamal

Asim Aquil said:


> Why 15 days? 15 days is a lifetime in Pakistani politics. If I was in charge, *pakar ke nikaalta*. In 15 days the situation would turn.


"Aacha josh hai bhai"
Be careful before taking any action against them as it may cost 2 billion $ , economic sanctions and many more things.
Ofcourse,the attack was on independence of pakistan and its sovereignity,but investigation is required from the sides before any action...


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## Awesome

rai_kamal said:


> "Aacha josh hai bhai"
> Be careful before taking any action against them as it may cost 2 billion $ , economic sanctions and many more things.
> Ofcourse,the attack was on independence of pakistan and its sovereignity,but investigation is required from the sides before any action...



I want to see an end to all US aid and the fact is there is hardly anything coming other than media statements, anyway.


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## W.11

nuclearpak said:


> You can't blame them for it!
> 
> Civilians is a matter of the Govt. Your beloved PPP could not keep it's promises, and provide ample support to the affected.
> 
> The army does to it's soldiers.
> 
> Everybody feels sorry for everyone injured or killed in every incident like this, but that post was just dis respectful to the family of the Shaheed and the Shaheed himself.


 
and who bloody started this war, civilian PPP government???

protecting the citizens is the duty of the fauj not protecting its sipahis, why are you on the border anyway if you cant protect the civilians, also government has little authority when it comes to WOT, americans now deal with army more than civilian government, if some drone attack agreement is signed, military is present and knows it..

fauj is the one with weapons and stuff not civilian govt, and dont behave like our fauj is in control anyway


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## Jango

rai_kamal said:


> "Aacha josh hai bhai"
> Be careful before taking any action against them as it may cost* 2 billion $* , economic sanctions and many more things.
> Ofcourse,the attack was on independence of pakistan and its sovereignity,but investigation is required from the sides before any action...



70 Billion lost since this WoT began, only 10 Billion $ received, you do the math and the logic.


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## Safriz

888jamie888 said:


> Why though? What were they trying to achieve? It doesn't make sense.



An army who is spoiled and drunken with power does need reason to kill some lowlifes...They know they will get away with it,why bother find reason?


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## President Camacho

This incident could very much give the NATO/US a strong justification to extend the deadline to withdraw from Afghanistan.


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## Jango

KarachiPunk said:


> and who bloody started this war, civilian PPP government???
> 
> protecting the citizens is the duty of the fauj not protecting its sipahis, why are you on the border anyway if you cant protect the civilians, also government has little authority when it comes to WOT, americans now deal with army more than civilian government, if some drone attack agreement is signed, military is present and knows it..
> 
> fauj is the one with weapons and stuff not civilian govt, and dont behave like our fauj is in control anyway



Yeah, the army is not in control, that is why the civilian government should be compensating the civilians, the Army compensates it's soldiers. Simple as that. or is it really difficult to comprehend? 

Army has made it's mistakes as well, but it is because of them , not solely, but in part, that you are sitting in you comfy chair in Karachi and ridiculing.

Your name suggests you are a ignorant and arrogant young 15 year old. karachiPunk.


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## Hulk

How Many Times America & Nato Attacked Pakistan? - YouTube


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## 888jamie888

KarachiPunk said:


> so does it make sense to attack on pakistan post and kill not 1, not 2, not 3 but 28 soldiers
> 
> you guys have already killed our 2 soldiers before, now how could you repeat the mistake if it was one??


No, as I just said it does not make sense. 
Mistakes can happen more than once. British soldiers have killed by US forces a number of times. It just doesnt make sense for the NATO to attack Pakistan, what is the benefit?

---------- Post added at 08:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------




safriz said:


> An army who is spoiled and drunken with power does need reason to kill some lowlifes...They know they will get away with it,why bother find reason?


That doesnt make sense.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Guest01 said:


> What Afghans claim is totally different. They claim that they came under fire first. Also the fact that PA is claiming that there were support troops sent in also conveys that no-one was sleeping. Regarding surprise that PAF was conspicous in absentia, calling in air support would have meant that Pakistan public could have been condoling many more of their men today. The objective was always to keep the situation localized and send a message to ISAF. The ISAF though clearly had different thoughts about how the dialogue should actually work.


The Afghans and NATO are idiots then for peddling this line - the WSJ article I posted earlier that provided some detailed quotes regarding the allegations of fire from the Pakistani post makes pretty clear that the Afghan troops were 'assuming' that the fire they were receiving was from the two posts. You cannot rationally argue that in complete darkness, in the middle of a military operation in mountainous terrain, that the troops allegedly under fire were able to very specifically pinpoint the location of the fire they were receiving as the two Pakistani border posts - certainly not from '2.5KM away' (if the location of the border post is correct).

Secondly, since Pakistan has provided the location of all its posts to ISAF and the ANA, one would have at the least expected ISAF to have checked whether or not they would be targeting a Pakistani position, and if so, first communicating with Pakistani authorities to address the issue of any alleged firing from the post.

There simple is no justification for NATO's actions here - they were either 'completely incompetent or completely complicit'.

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## Safriz

888jamie888 said:


> No, as I just said it does not make sense.
> Mistakes can happen more than once. British soldiers have killed by US forces a number of times. It just doesnt make sense for the NATO to attack Pakistan, what is the benefit?



yes it has happened,brits have been killed by americans "by mistake"...there are documentaries on various friendly fire incidents all over the Internet but strangely enough its always Americans killing others by mistake and never the other way round....
Why give weapons to such incompetent dumbos?


Although the scenario of the recent incident in Pakistan cannot be mistake.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> .................... You cannot rationally argue that in complete darkness, in the middle of a military operation in mountainous terrain, that the troops allegedly under fire were able to very specifically pinpoint the location of the fire they were receiving as the two Pakistani border posts ......................



Yes, using a firefinder radar system, the source of unfriendly fire can be located, often even before the first round hits.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*The Daily Telegraph spoke to wounded survivors of the raid, who insisted they were victims of an unprovoked attack.

Amirzeb Khan, 23, said the area around the checkpoints, about two miles from the border, had been cleared of militants and the night had been quiet.

The attack, he said, came at about 2am. They counted four helicopters.

"Initially, we thought that the attackers were Taliban and we took positions to retaliate but then saw that at least four helicopters were shelling from above," he said from his bed at the Combined Military Hospital in Peshawar, where he was being treated for shrapnel injuries to his abdomen.

Hameedullah Wazir described a scene of chaos as an apparently indiscriminate rain of rockets exploded around the checkpoint, waking sleeping troops. He said the survivors simply ran.

"We didn't find time to respond as everything took place so quickly that we were unable to fight back," he said.*

Pakistani soldiers who survived Nato attack say it was unprovoked attack - Telegraph

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## Mansanpk2009

If Pakistan would bow this time on this ugliest crime committed by NATO then we would never be able to rise our heads again. NATO supply should be blocked permanently..Not only that...but Pak Afghan Transit agreement should be suspended for an indefinite period.

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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> Either you are delibrately trying to be cute or simply playing with us.
> ...................



Neither.

I am merely being factual and rational, and shall continue to do so.


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## Hulk

The US has too many levers it can press to open the supply routes.

On the other hand, I agree with AM. It was deliberate not by mistake. It maybe that like ISI uses Haqqni against NATO, they use mistakes to reply back. Just thinking loud.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Yes, using a firefinder radar system, the source of unfriendly fire can be located, often even before the first round hits.


Fire finder radars would not be operated by troops actually conducting the operations, and they are used to detect mortar, artillery and rocket attacks - all indirect fire - which would be pretty inaccurate in mountainous terrain, 2.5KM away in complete darkness.

Secondly, the WSJ quotes Afghan officials as claiming that soldiers conducting the ops called in the strikes on Pakistani positions.

Third, given that Pakistani post locations have been provided to ISAF and ISAF has Pakistan Army liaisons deployed at various ISAF bases, this should have been cleared with Pakistani authorities before launching the strikes.

Keep trying to find excuses to justify atrocities by your beloved West.

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## CallsignAlzaeem

Sab dramaybaazi everything will be back in a few days.


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## regular

Devil Soul said:


> Capt Usman Shaheed ...Age of his Daughter 2.5 month ......


see how sweet looking daughter is she.....she didn't even get chance to see her daddy.....realli makes pplz feel very sorry for her now......what she will think about her daddy when she will growup.......

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There simple is no justification for NATO's actions here - they were either 'completely incompetent or completely complicit'.



Unless they had reason to believe that the terrorists were using the Pak check posts to stage attacks on them on the Afg side of the border.. Which we have seen in interviews with NATO commanders in the famous BBC documentary..

---------- Post added at 01:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *The Daily Telegraph spoke to wounded survivors of the raid, who insisted they were victims of an unprovoked attack.
> 
> Amirzeb Khan, 23, said the area around the checkpoints, about two miles from the border, had been cleared of militants and the night had been quiet.
> 
> The attack, he said, came at about 2am. They counted four helicopters.
> 
> "Initially, we thought that the attackers were Taliban and we took positions to retaliate but then saw that at least four helicopters were shelling from above," he said from his bed at the Combined Military Hospital in Peshawar, where he was being treated for shrapnel injuries to his abdomen.
> 
> Hameedullah Wazir described a scene of chaos as an apparently indiscriminate rain of rockets exploded around the checkpoint, waking sleeping troops. He said the survivors simply ran.
> 
> "We didn't find time to respond as everything took place so quickly that we were unable to fight back," he said.*
> 
> Pakistani soldiers who survived Nato attack say it was unprovoked attack - Telegraph



So they *were* helicopters


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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There simple is no justification for NATO's actions here - they were either *'completely incompetent or completely complicit'*.



What if neither?



> In the latest incident, a Western official and a senior Afghan security official said NATO and Afghan forces had come under fire from across the border with Pakistan before NATO aircraft attacked a Pakistani army post, killing the soldiers.
> 
> &#8220;They came under cross-border fire,&#8221; the Western official said, without identifying the source of the fire.
> 
> *The Afghan official said troops had come under fire from inside Pakistan as they were descending from helicopters, which had returned fire.*
> 
> Both officials asked not to be named because the attack is so sensitive.
> 
> Pakistan has said the attack was an unprovoked assault and has said it reserves the right to retaliate.



Don't you think AM that we should let the results of the investigation out?

For now we are all hearing only one sided story - Pakistan's story. Let us wait for the other side too before accepting such emotive conclusions, what do you say?

About 2.5 KM range, mortars can get there, and many times in the past NATO choppers (troops) have complained of being targeted by mortars fired from Pakistani border post areas.

Remember, I am not declaring any of the sides a saint or a devil. I am just pointing out that there are many holes in all the stories we have heard yet, and you are too quick in getting to the conclusions when you should exercise a bit of patience to let it all come out. 

If only such vague signs and the opaque end results were sufficient for such conclusions as you are reaching up to, then man, you don't want to know where Pakistan would stand.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Fire finder radars would not be operated by troops actually conducting the operations, and they are used to detect mortar, artillery and rocket attacks - all indirect fire - which would be pretty inaccurate in mountainous terrain, 2.5KM away in complete darkness.
> 
> Secondly, the WSJ quotes Afghan officials as claiming that soldiers conducting the ops called in the strikes on Pakistani positions.
> 
> Third, given that Pakistani post locations have been provided to ISAF and ISAF has Pakistan Army liaisons deployed at various ISAF bases, this should have been cleared with Pakistani authorities before launching the strikes.
> 
> Keep trying to find excuses to justify atrocities by your beloved West.



1. Troops in those areas always have firefinder coverage during operations, and they work in the light or dark, in that type of terrain just fine.

2. The strikes were called, but only to a perceived attack. The investigation is not yet complete.

3. If the troops are under direct fire, there is no time for that type of clearance.

4. The incident is a terrible tragedy for sure, and should be regarded as such.


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## illusion8

VCheng said:


> Yes, using a firefinder radar system, the source of unfriendly fire can be located, often even before the first round hits.



The terrain where this incident happened is one of the most difficult and rugged, also Pakistan has most of its equipment stationed on its Eastern border against India.


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## VCheng

illusion8 said:


> The terrain where this incident happened is one of the most difficult and rugged, also Pakistan has most of its equipment stationed on its Eastern border against India.



I was referring to NATO firefinder units. The response that led to the Pakistani casualties is presently thought to be the result of fire emanating from those locations, but that matter is under investigation.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Unless they had reason to believe that the terrorists were using the Pak check posts to stage attacks on them on the Afg side of the border.. Which we have seen in interviews with NATO commanders in the famous BBC documentary..


Many of the same officials also pointed out that they had no actual evidence that Pakistani forces were either providing cover for militants or firing themselves.


> So they *were* helicopters


It would appear so, though it does not rule out fighter jets as well.

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## unicorn

*Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan*





Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Senate's No. 2 Republican, says ''tough diplomacy'' is needed and US aid must be contingent upon Pakistan's cooperation in fighting al-Qaida. -Reuters File Photo

*WASHINGTON: Senior lawmakers suggested Sunday that the US take a harder line with Pakistan, after Islamabad retaliated for Natos deadly misfire by closing parts of its border with Afghanistan and demanding the US vacate a drone base.*

Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan | World | DAWN.COM


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> 1. Troops in those areas always have firefinder coverage during operations, and they work in the light or dark, in that type of terrain just fine.
> 
> 2. The strikes were called, but only to a perceived attack. The investigation is not yet complete.
> 
> 3. If the troops are under direct fire, there is no time for that type of clearance.
> 
> 4. The incident is a terrible tragedy for sure, and should be regarded as such.


Darkness would have an impact on the troops on the ground pinpointing the location of fire in the middle of combat - I was not referring to the radar, and the quotes from Afghan officials do not refer to the radar operators determining the location of the fire, but the Afghan troops on the ground. Don't invent your own facts to excuse NATO atrocities please.

Second, with respect to 'no time for clearance' - that is precisely what ISAF-PA liaisons and communication channels are for. For NATO to not use those channels is 'complete incompetence or collusion'.

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## American Pakistani

NATO is taking time to make up story thats it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> 1. Troops in those areas always have firefinder coverage during operations, and they work in the light or dark, in that type of terrain just fine.
> 
> 2. The strikes were called, but only to a perceived attack. The investigation is not yet complete.
> 
> 3. If the troops are under direct fire, there is no time for that type of clearance.
> 
> 4. The incident is a terrible tragedy for sure, and should be regarded as such.


Darkness would have an impact on the troops on the ground pinpointing the location of fire in the middle of combat - I was not referring to the radar, and the quotes from Afghan officials do not refer to the radar operators determining the location of the fire, but the Afghan troops on the ground. Don't invent your own facts to excuse NATO atrocities please.

Second, with respect to 'no time for clearance' - that is precisely what ISAF-PA liaisons and communication channels are for. For NATO to not use those channels is 'complete incompetence or collusion'.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Many of the same officials also pointed out that they had no actual evidence that Pakistani forces were either providing cover for militants or firing themselves.


I mean in that particular moment when NATO forces came under fire, if they had reasons to believe that fire was being staged from teh Pakistani post, they would have acted immediately, given the build up thru the likes of the BBC documentary. 




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It would appear so, though it does not rule out fighter jets as well.



Which would again make absence of PAF even more glaring..


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

unicorn said:


> *Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Senate's No. 2 Republican, says ''tough diplomacy'' is needed and US aid must be contingent upon Pakistan's cooperation in fighting al-Qaida. -Reuters File Photo
> 
> *WASHINGTON: Senior lawmakers suggested Sunday that the US take a harder line with Pakistan, after Islamabad retaliated for Nato&#8217;s deadly misfire by closing parts of its border with Afghanistan and demanding the US vacate a drone base.*
> 
> Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan | World | DAWN.COM


They can take their 'tough line' and shove it you know where.

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## American Pakistani




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## unicorn

VCheng said:


> I was referring to NATO firefinder units. *The response that led to the Pakistani casualties is presently thought to be the result of fire emanating from those locations*, but that matter is under investigation.



You are b@tching in the entire thread that we should wait for the investigations and reports, yet you are speculating all sorts of things.Stop your idiotic posting in this thread.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> I mean in that particular moment when NATO forces came under fire, if they had reasons to believe that fire was being staged from teh Pakistani post, they would have acted immediately, given the build up thru the likes of the BBC documentary.


TV reports do not determine SOP's and policies - as I pointed out, post locations have been provided and PA liaisons are present at various ISAF bases - that is the entire point of 'coordinating operations and having lines of communication open'.

How the hell does NATO expect Pakistan to figure out what is what in this terrain when it cannot even communicate properly?


> Which would again make absence of PAF even more glaring..


Not really - as pointed out already, depends on whether that area had radar coverage and whether radar coverage was effective and whether the absence of the PAF was for reasons it has been absent in the case of some Taliban ambushes - lack of coordination b/w PAF and PA and/or lack of resources.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Darkness would have an impact on the troops on the ground pinpointing the location of fire in the middle of combat - I was not referring to the radar, and the quotes from Afghan officials do not refer to the radar operators determining the location of the fire, but the Afghan troops on the ground. Don't invent your own facts to excuse NATO atrocities please.



I am not finding any excuses. Firefinder coverage works day and night, and how that coverage is provided would not be known to the Afghan officials.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Second, with respect to 'no time for clearance' - that is precisely what ISAF-PA liaisons and communication channels are for. For NATO to not use those channels is 'complete incompetence or collusion'.



I would wait for the investigation report to pinpoint why those channels were not used before jumping to premature conclusions that are likely to be erroneous.


----------



## W.11

unicorn said:


> *Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Senate's No. 2 Republican, says ''tough diplomacy'' is needed and US aid must be contingent upon Pakistan's cooperation in fighting al-Qaida. -Reuters File Photo
> 
> *WASHINGTON: Senior lawmakers suggested Sunday that the US take a harder line with Pakistan, after Islamabad retaliated for Natos deadly misfire by closing parts of its border with Afghanistan and demanding the US vacate a drone base.*
> 
> Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan | World | DAWN.COM



kuch ghairat hai na, close NATO's supply permanently, you slave bastards, look how they treat us, first kill our soldiers and now they want tp punish pakistan for reacting to the barbaric act


----------



## regular

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *The Daily Telegraph spoke to wounded survivors of the raid, who insisted they were victims of an unprovoked attack.
> 
> Amirzeb Khan, 23, said the area around the checkpoints, about two miles from the border, had been cleared of militants and the night had been quiet.
> 
> The attack, he said, came at about 2am. They counted four helicopters.
> 
> "Initially, we thought that the attackers were Taliban and we took positions to retaliate but then saw that at least four helicopters were shelling from above," he said from his bed at the Combined Military Hospital in Peshawar, where he was being treated for shrapnel injuries to his abdomen.
> 
> Hameedullah Wazir described a scene of chaos as an apparently indiscriminate rain of rockets exploded around the checkpoint, waking sleeping troops. He said the survivors simply ran.
> 
> "We didn't find time to respond as everything took place so quickly that we were unable to fight back," he said.*
> 
> Pakistani soldiers who survived Nato attack say it was unprovoked attack - Telegraph


Better next time they/soldiers be ready for such situations if they realli wanna live cuz NATO/US is used to doing it now. They have to save themselves on their own by retaliations or somethingelse cuz the top elites don't care except talkings , and sleeps far away within their safe houses. They not gonna come and save them.....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> I am not finding any excuses. Firefinder coverage works day and night, and how that coverage is provided would not be known to the Afghan officials.


Again, I was not questioning the radar coverage, but the fact that it was Afghan troops on the ground that were quoted as calling in air strikes and identifying the location of the fire they were allegedly receiving, and not the radar operators, which would likely be ISAF.

So please, stop inventing your own facts.


> I would wait for the investigation report to pinpoint why those channels were not used before jumping to premature conclusions that are likely to be erroneous.


There are only two possibilities 'complete incompetence or collusion' by NATO.


----------



## American Pakistani

*After Attacks in Pakistan, Worries in Afghanistan About Security*
By ALISSA J. RUBIN and SALMAN MASOOD
Published: November 27, 2011 

KABUL, Afghanistan &#8212; As investigations began on Sunday into the NATO attacks on two military outposts that killed at least 25 Pakistani soldiers, Afghan officials expressed concern about the possible long-term damage to regional security.

Afghan Foreign Ministry officials on Sunday urged Pakistan to not follow through on threats to boycott a conference on Afghanistan&#8217;s future that is scheduled for Dec. 5 in Bonn, Germany. &#8220;We hope that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan will participate in the Bonn conference because the conference for us is the most important political event of the year,&#8221; a ministry spokesman, Janan Mosawi, said.

Pakistan&#8217;s participation is considered vital, officials said, given the leverage that it maintains over some of the Taliban factions fighting inside Afghanistan.

A spokeswoman of the Pakistani Ministry of Foreign Affairs said no decision had been made about attending the conference. &#8220;The matter is being examined,&#8221; the spokeswoman said.

In Washington, American officials were trying to assess how the attacks had happened. According to preliminary reports, allied forces in Afghanistan engaged in a firefight along the border and called in airstrikes. Senior Obama administration officials were also weighing the implications on a relationship that took a sharp turn for the worse after a Navy Seal commando raid killed Osama bin Laden near Islamabad in May and that has deteriorated since then.

NATO was also investigating after saying on Saturday it was likely that NATO-led airstrikes had led to the deaths of the Pakistani soldiers. &#8220;This was a tragic unintended incident,&#8221; the group&#8217;s secretary general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said in a statement. &#8220;We will determine what happened and draw the right lessons.&#8221;

Pakistan&#8217;s foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, called Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday to convey the &#8220;deep sense of rage felt across Pakistan,&#8221; according to a government statement. The border attacks negate &#8220;the progress made by the two countries on improving relations and forces Pakistan to revisit the terms of engagement,&#8221; Ms. Khar was quoted as saying. Earlier, Pakistani military officials had called the attacks unprovoked acts of aggression by the United States.

Pakistan buried the dead soldiers on Sunday as thousands of protesters gathered outside the American Consulate in Karachi. A Reuters reporter said the angry crowd shouted &#8220;Down with America,&#8221; and one man climbed on the wall surrounding the heavily fortified compound and attached a Pakistani flag to the barbed wire.

One funeral, led by the army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, was held at the Corps Headquarters in Peshawar, the capital of Khyber Pakhtoonkhwa Province in northwest Pakistan near the site of the attacks. General Kayani also visited soldiers who were injured in the attacks.

On Saturday, the Pakistani government ordered the Central Intelligence Agency to vacate the drone operations it runs from Shamsi Air Base in western Pakistan within 15 days. It also closed the two main NATO supply routes into Afghanistan, including the one at Torkham. NATO forces receive roughly 40 percent of their supplies through that crossing, which runs through the Khyber Pass, and Pakistan gave no estimate for how long the routes might be shut down.

On Sunday, the state-run news media quoted Rehman Malik, the Pakistani interior minister, as saying that the NATO supply lines had &#8220;been stopped permanently.&#8221; Mr. Malik said NATO containers would not be allowed to cross the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

Hundreds of trucks remained stalled at border crossings, The Associated Press reported, leaving them vulnerable to militant attacks. About 150 trucks were destroyed during attacks about a year ago after Pakistan closed one Afghan border crossings for about 10 days in retaliation for a helicopter strike that killed two Pakistani soldiers.

This time, The A.P. said, Pakistan has closed both its crossings, and nearly 300 trucks carrying coalition supplies were backed up at Torkham and at Chaman in Baluchistan Province in the southwest.

The Pakistani government also lodged a protest with Afghanistan on Sunday about the &#8220;use of Afghan territory against Pakistan,&#8221; according to government officials. The Afghan government was urged to take steps to ensure such attacks would not be repeated.

The Bonn conference, to which more than 50 countries are sending representatives, had been intended to showcase the international commitment to Afghanistan&#8217;s security as well as its sovereignty. If Pakistan, which is widely seen as a seedbed for many Afghan insurgents, refuses to participate, Western diplomats and military officials said, there would be little doubt that the insurgency would continue.

Mr. Mosawi described the conference as important &#8220;in terms of the vision the Afghan government will be sharing with the international community, with the region in the 10 years after transition.&#8221;

&#8220;Pakistan&#8217;s participation for us is extremely important. and we hope that they will continue as they have agreed to at the Foreign Ministry level in Bonn,&#8221; he said.

Mr. Mosawi said that the Afghan government had been contacted by the Pakistani ambassador in Kabul, Afghanistan, but would not elaborate and did not respond to questions asking whether the Afghan government had been asked to take steps to limit NATO military activity on the Pakistani border.

Alissa J. Rubin reported from Kabul, and Salman Masood from Islamabad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/world/asia/afghanistan-worries-after-attacks-in-pakistan.html

---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------




unicorn said:


> *Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Senate's No. 2 Republican, says ''tough diplomacy'' is needed and US aid must be contingent upon Pakistan's cooperation in fighting al-Qaida. -Reuters File Photo
> 
> *WASHINGTON: Senior lawmakers suggested Sunday that the US take a harder line with Pakistan, after Islamabad retaliated for Natos deadly misfire by closing parts of its border with Afghanistan and demanding the US vacate a drone base.*
> 
> Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan | World | DAWN.COM



Look likes he had drink too much.


----------



## VCheng

AM: To say that _"There are only two possibilities 'complete incompetence or collusion'"_ is rather premature at the moment.


----------



## SMC

unicorn said:


> *Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Senate's No. 2 Republican, says ''tough diplomacy'' is needed and US aid must be contingent upon Pakistan's cooperation in fighting al-Qaida. -Reuters File Photo
> 
> *WASHINGTON: Senior lawmakers suggested Sunday that the US take a harder line with Pakistan, after Islamabad retaliated for Natos deadly misfire by closing parts of its border with Afghanistan and demanding the US vacate a drone base.*
> 
> Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan | World | DAWN.COM



Classic case of ulta chor kawal ko daantay. Go f*ck yourself mercilessly please, Mr Senator(s).

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## American Eagle

I agree with all who say wait for NATO/ISAF documented facts before trying to discuss the undiscussable.

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## American Pakistani




----------



## regular

American Pakistani said:


> *After Attacks in Pakistan, Worries in Afghanistan About Security*
> By ALISSA J. RUBIN and SALMAN MASOOD
> Published: November 27, 2011
> 
> KABUL, Afghanistan &#8212; As investigations began on Sunday into the NATO attacks on two military outposts that killed at least 25 Pakistani soldiers, Afghan officials expressed concern about the possible long-term damage to regional security.
> 
> Afghan Foreign Ministry officials on Sunday urged Pakistan to not follow through on threats to boycott a conference on Afghanistan&#8217;s future that is scheduled for Dec. 5 in Bonn, Germany. &#8220;We hope that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan will participate in the Bonn conference because the conference for us is the most important political event of the year,&#8221; a ministry spokesman, Janan Mosawi, said.
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s participation is considered vital, officials said, given the leverage that it maintains over some of the Taliban factions fighting inside Afghanistan.
> 
> A spokeswoman of the Pakistani Ministry of Foreign Affairs said no decision had been made about attending the conference. &#8220;The matter is being examined,&#8221; the spokeswoman said.
> 
> In Washington, American officials were trying to assess how the attacks had happened. According to preliminary reports, allied forces in Afghanistan engaged in a firefight along the border and called in airstrikes. Senior Obama administration officials were also weighing the implications on a relationship that took a sharp turn for the worse after a Navy Seal commando raid killed Osama bin Laden near Islamabad in May and that has deteriorated since then.
> 
> NATO was also investigating after saying on Saturday it was likely that NATO-led airstrikes had led to the deaths of the Pakistani soldiers. &#8220;This was a tragic unintended incident,&#8221; the group&#8217;s secretary general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said in a statement. &#8220;We will determine what happened and draw the right lessons.&#8221;
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, called Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday to convey the &#8220;deep sense of rage felt across Pakistan,&#8221; according to a government statement. The border attacks negate &#8220;the progress made by the two countries on improving relations and forces Pakistan to revisit the terms of engagement,&#8221; Ms. Khar was quoted as saying. Earlier, Pakistani military officials had called the attacks unprovoked acts of aggression by the United States.
> 
> Pakistan buried the dead soldiers on Sunday as thousands of protesters gathered outside the American Consulate in Karachi. A Reuters reporter said the angry crowd shouted &#8220;Down with America,&#8221; and one man climbed on the wall surrounding the heavily fortified compound and attached a Pakistani flag to the barbed wire.
> 
> One funeral, led by the army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, was held at the Corps Headquarters in Peshawar, the capital of Khyber Pakhtoonkhwa Province in northwest Pakistan near the site of the attacks. General Kayani also visited soldiers who were injured in the attacks.
> 
> On Saturday, the Pakistani government ordered the Central Intelligence Agency to vacate the drone operations it runs from Shamsi Air Base in western Pakistan within 15 days. It also closed the two main NATO supply routes into Afghanistan, including the one at Torkham. NATO forces receive roughly 40 percent of their supplies through that crossing, which runs through the Khyber Pass, and Pakistan gave no estimate for how long the routes might be shut down.
> 
> On Sunday, the state-run news media quoted Rehman Malik, the Pakistani interior minister, as saying that the NATO supply lines had &#8220;been stopped permanently.&#8221; Mr. Malik said NATO containers would not be allowed to cross the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.
> 
> Hundreds of trucks remained stalled at border crossings, The Associated Press reported, leaving them vulnerable to militant attacks. About 150 trucks were destroyed during attacks about a year ago after Pakistan closed one Afghan border crossings for about 10 days in retaliation for a helicopter strike that killed two Pakistani soldiers.
> 
> This time, The A.P. said, Pakistan has closed both its crossings, and nearly 300 trucks carrying coalition supplies were backed up at Torkham and at Chaman in Baluchistan Province in the southwest.
> 
> The Pakistani government also lodged a protest with Afghanistan on Sunday about the &#8220;use of Afghan territory against Pakistan,&#8221; according to government officials. The Afghan government was urged to take steps to ensure such attacks would not be repeated.
> 
> The Bonn conference, to which more than 50 countries are sending representatives, had been intended to showcase the international commitment to Afghanistan&#8217;s security as well as its sovereignty. If Pakistan, which is widely seen as a seedbed for many Afghan insurgents, refuses to participate, Western diplomats and military officials said, there would be little doubt that the insurgency would continue.
> 
> Mr. Mosawi described the conference as important &#8220;in terms of the vision the Afghan government will be sharing with the international community, with the region in the 10 years after transition.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;Pakistan&#8217;s participation for us is extremely important. and we hope that they will continue as they have agreed to at the Foreign Ministry level in Bonn,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Mr. Mosawi said that the Afghan government had been contacted by the Pakistani ambassador in Kabul, Afghanistan, but would not elaborate and did not respond to questions asking whether the Afghan government had been asked to take steps to limit NATO military activity on the Pakistani border.
> 
> Alissa J. Rubin reported from Kabul, and Salman Masood from Islamabad.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/world/asia/afghanistan-worries-after-attacks-in-pakistan.html
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Look likes he had drink too much.


Yes! realli ...looks like he drank Tequila or 700 in his breakfast......


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## notorious_eagle

Guest01 said:


> Like they say, half knowledge is dangerous knowledge. It is indeed accepted in US and west that Afghanistan war is going nowhere, the caveat, till Pakistan stops the support to Taliban. That is the bottomline. So once again to reiterate, this strategy of PA generals is getting things closer home!



Well if the people in West choose to ignore any reason, than there is nothing we can do. Where is the proof that Pakistan supports the Taliban? Why in the world would Pakistan support the Taliban when they are hell bent on destroying our country, their is enough evidence to suggest that the TTP have enough support from Taliban in Afghanistan as they constantly keep attacking Pakistani positions from their hideouts in Afghanistan. 

The US is not winning the war in Afghanistan is because it has failed to win the hearts and minds of the locals. The US has used the strategy of bombs over butter, every other day innocent civilians are killed by NATO fire, how possibly can the US expect loyalty from the Afghans when they are killing their brothers and sisters left right and centre. Pakistan wants a stable Afghanistan that is not hostile to her interests, not dominance as history has proved that no foreigner can accomplish that. 



Guest01 said:


> Re what Indians think, relax, we have been here when Pakistan was part of SEATO / CENTO, we have had China and Pakistan with us always. We will be fine in our own poor, inferior way. Thanks.



I know India will be fine and so will Pakistan. Pakistan might be going through some tough times now but we are a tough bunch and will bounce back. 



Guest01 said:


> My participation here is not to rub any salt there. I strongly believe that if the Pakistani Army strategy of supporting its prodigal assets continue, this problem will just grow endemic and the region will be in a mess. And about the color. So what is the color of the money then?



Oh puleez, majority of the Indian members except for a few have just added salt to the wound. Don't try and pretend that you have Pakistan's best interests in your heart, you are fooling no one. Regarding colour, i agree Aryan_B went over the line and shouldn't have used race in his post.

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## pakdefender

unicorn said:


> *Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Senate's No. 2 Republican, says ''tough diplomacy'' is needed and US aid must be contingent upon Pakistan's cooperation in fighting al-Qaida. -Reuters File Photo
> 
> *WASHINGTON: Senior lawmakers suggested Sunday that the US take a harder line with Pakistan, after Islamabad retaliated for Nato&#8217;s deadly misfire by closing parts of its border with Afghanistan and demanding the US vacate a drone base.*
> 
> Two US senators call for tough line with Pakistan | World | DAWN.COM



once the we shut down their supply routes indefinitly and follow through on the removal of american presence from our soil only the this ****** suar will come to his senses , untill then they will keep on vomiting what ever AIPAC feeds up their back holes.


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> AM: To say that _"There are only two possibilities 'complete incompetence or collusion'"_ is rather premature at the moment.



OK... Pakistani troops are guilty, they actually opened fire on innocent ISAF/ANA soldiers and in self defense they called in the NATO airstrike that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers. Happy with it? Good, now live with it.


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## regular

notorious_eagle said:


> Well if the people in West choose to ignore any reason, than there is nothing we can do. Where is the proof that Pakistan supports the Taliban? Why in the world would Pakistan support the Taliban when they are hell bent on destroying our country, their is enough evidence to suggest that the TTP have enough support from Taliban in Afghanistan as they constantly keep attacking Pakistani positions from their hideouts in Afghanistan.
> 
> The US is not winning the war in Afghanistan is because it has failed to win the hearts and minds of the locals. The US has used the strategy of bombs over butter, every other day innocent civilians are killed by NATO fire, how possibly can the US expect loyalty from the Afghans when they are killing their brothers and sisters left right and centre. Pakistan wants a stable Afghanistan that is not hostile to her interests, not dominance as history has proved that no foreigner can accomplish that.
> 
> 
> 
> I know India will be fine and so will Pakistan. Pakistan might be going through some tough times now but we are a tough bunch and will bounce back.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh puleez, majority of the Indian members except for a few have just added salt to the wound. Don't try and pretend that you have Pakistan's best interests in your heart, you are fooling no one. Regarding colour, i agree Aryan_B went over the line and shouldn't have used race in his post.


Now the reallity is that the US/NATO is siding with the terrorists and attacking our troops mercilessly .....This means infact the US/NATO are training these Alqaida and Haqqani terrorists and sending them within our country to attack and kill our innocent public and our troops.....


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## pakdefender

American Eagle said:


> I agree with all who say wait for NATO/ISAF documented facts before trying to discuss the undiscussable.



We have lost 28 soliders to NATO/US agression and this fact is undeniable, you people are spineless murderes this is also an undeniable fact so what more do we need to know before we stat treating you like the enemy that you are ?!


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## lem34

After the initial upset and emotional feelings I have now had time to think about what has happened here. I believe these actions were delibarate. This is the latest outrage in a well orchestrated sequence of events. The last 6 to 12 months pakistan and in particular PA and ISI have been demonised in the western anti Pakistan press around the world. There has been the usual chorus of excuses from a few treacherous Pakistanis who want Pakistan to have no army and to live at the mercy of Indian and American interests who try to excuse these unjustified acts against our nation. 

Today even China and Russia would be reluctant to fight a war with america. Therefore Americans know that it is unlikely that Pakistan will fight them openly.

Yes pakistan could give a bloody nose to America no doubt but Americans could do unprecedented damage to our people and our country. 

These acts by America against Pakistan from the Davies affair to this recent outrage are designed to destabilise Pakistan its army and ISI. Logic being that we Pakistanis will blame PA for being powerless. These actions are designed to force pakistan into backing their puppet regime of Karzai in Afghanistan.

Americans have not been able to achieve what they want in Afghanistan. They are leaving the neighbourhood however they still want influence in our neighbourhood. They intend to do this by using India as a proxy and that they will leave a few troops in Afghanistan and try containing china. They need Pakistan to bend to their will and support their nefarious designs. Simply speaking Pak establishment and I don't mean Zaradari but real powerbrokers like Kayani will not accept this without a pound of Indian flesh in kashmir. America wants Pakistan to be subjugated to India so India can concentrate on the main task and that is contain China. 

So my brothers we are in a delicate environment and we must be firm but not give Americans any excuses to take greater action. We need to be very meusured in our response and we need to move closer and coordinate our actions with China and to a lesser extent Russia and Iran with who our interests converge.

I do not see any end to these acts by america in the short term and we need to be patient and play our cards close to our chest. We must be united and supportive of our armed forces and other agencies.

Oh God please give janath to those 28 shaeeds that have been killed by the enemies of pakistan and give their families patience RIP

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## Emmie

self delete..


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## fd24

Emmie said:


> OK... Pakistani troops are guilty, they actually opened fire on innocent ISAF/ANA soldiers and in self defense they called in the NATO airstrike that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers. Happy with it? Good, now live with it.



Emmie yaar any person on earth would look at the argument objectively and have perhaps a hunch. It not as if it was 50 or 100 metres across the border. It was 2 miles. However anybody wants to look at it - it looks mor and more like a massacre. The silence of Nato speaks volumes. Yet VC wishes to give the benefit of the doubt to his beloved loved ones. He is more American than Captain America! I find it funny that he keeps jumping round any questions and when he gets into a pickle - he refers to his standard answers."lets wait and see" or "lets agree to differ". 
Nato and the USA will and can never be trusted. I want and i simply expect a strong response from Pakistan. Cheng - you have certainly shown us something today and i am grateful for it - and that is how one should NOT be when it comes to having positivity towards the nation of your forefathers

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## 888jamie888

Aryan, in every other post of yours you speak of Americas impending doom, bankruptcy, death, destruction etc. Why,therefore would they now risk another conflict with Pakistan?


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## SMC

888jamie888 said:


> Aryan, in every other post of yours you speak of Americas impending doom, bankruptcy, death, destruction etc. Why,therefore would they now risk another conflict with Pakistan?



Going out strong I guess. They want to make their legacy known for death, destruction, terrorism, killing, murder, bombing and whatnot. What better way to go about that than start yet another war.

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## unicorn

Ikram Sehgal (defense analyst) giving his views.
Al Jazeera Report

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## lem34

888jamie888 said:


> Aryan, in every other post of yours you speak of Americas impending doom, bankruptcy, death, destruction etc. Why,therefore would they now risk another conflict with Pakistan?



These acts are the desparat acts of an empire in demise. They lash out and hope in creating scenarios where they can extend their empire a little longer. If pakistan fell in line that would assist in containing china and holding the new order back try thinking about it.

You have probably heard of the saying in UK oh is big but he is a gentle giant. In americas case they are the opposite they are on their way down and have to prove that they are not and create scenarios that give them relevance in a new world

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## 888jamie888

Aryan_B said:


> These acts are the desparat acts of an empire in demise. They lash out and hope in creating scenarios where they can extendd their empire a little longer. If pakistan fell in line that would assist in containing china and holding the new order back try thinking about it


How would attacking Pakistan get them on the US's side? Surely co-operating with them would? Flawed argument.


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## pakdefender

American Pakistani said:


> *After Attacks in Pakistan, Worries in Afghanistan About Security*
> By ALISSA J. RUBIN and SALMAN MASOOD
> Published: November 27, 2011



Alissa J. *Rubin* <<<< it never takes long for members of this cabal ( i.e the ones who cannot be named ) to show up in conflicts going on in Muslim lands


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## lem34

888jamie888 said:


> How would attacking Pakistan get them on the US's side? Surely co-operating with them would? Flawed argument.



I told you to think about it. America/india are not prepared to pay pakistans price for compliance with american wishes -kashmir before you ask

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## air marshal




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## 888jamie888

SMC said:


> Going out strong I guess. They want to make their legacy known for death, destruction, terrorism, killing, murder, bombing and whatnot. What better way to go about that than start yet another war.


Ridiculous.


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## FNFAL

Guys any update on the blockade? I mean is it still there or limited supply of essential medical supplies and stuff have been cleared..? Getting no update on indian newspapers


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## Safriz

888jamie888 said:


> Aryan, in every other post of yours you speak of Americas impending doom, bankruptcy, death, destruction etc. Why,therefore would they now risk another conflict with Pakistan?



they need an escape goat for their monumental failure in Afghanistan.thats why

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## Emmie

superkaif said:


> Emmie yaar any person on earth would look at the argument objectively and have perhaps a hunch. It not as if it was 50 or 100 metres across the border. It was 2 miles. However anybody wants to look at it - it looks mor and more like a massacre. The silence of Nato speaks volumes. Yet VC wishes to give the benefit of the doubt to his beloved loved ones. He is more American than Captain America! I find it funny that he keeps jumping round any questions and when he gets into a pickle - he refers to his standard answers."lets wait and see" or "lets agree to differ".
> Nato and the USA will and can never be trusted. I want and i simply expect a strong response from Pakistan. Cheng - you have certainly shown us something today and i am grateful for it - and that is how one should NOT be when it comes to having positivity towards the nation of your forefathers



Shah see ziada shah ke wafadar loog.. Anyway, I hope Pakistan is going to take some serious steps this time. No way lives of 28 soldiers are going to be compromised.

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## 888jamie888

safriz said:


> they need an escape goat for their monumental failure in Afghanistan.thats why


What??? The US has failed in Afghanistan, therefore in order to shift the blame they attack Pakistan? That makes no sense.


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## pakdefender

unicorn said:


> Ikram Sehgal (defense analyst) giving his views.
> Al Jazeera Report



Ikram Sehgal put it well , closing down supply routes and kicking them out of Shamis airbase is not enough , equal amout of thier blood has to spilled to avenge the loss of life on our side.

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## lem34

*
Nato braces for reprisals after deadly air strike on Pakistan border post*

Concerns the ISI intelligence agency could use its suspected influence over insurgent groups to launch reprisal attacks


Julian Borger in Kabul and Saeed Shah in Karachi 
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 20.52 GMT
Article history



Nato forces in Afghanistan were braced on Sunday for possible reprisals from Pakistani-backed insurgents following the coalition air strike along the border that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.
Senior officers from the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf), were scrambling to resume contacts with their Pakistani counterparts in the hopes of setting up a joint investigation into the incident.

But Pakistani officers severed communications and Islamabad cut Isaf's two supply routes running through Pakistan.

It also gave the US two weeks to vacate the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan, which has been used to launch American drone aircraft.

One Isaf source voiced concern that the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, could go much further and use its suspected influence over insurgent groups in the tribal areas along the Afghan border to launch reprisal attacks on Nato. "This will come back at us, and at a time and a place of their [the ISI's] choosing," the source predicted. In September the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said the ISI was using insurgent groups such as the Haqqani network to wage a "proxy war" in Afghanistan.

The incident, and the subsequent breakdown in relations with Pakistan, is a particular blow to the Isaf commander, US general John Allen, who sees the insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistan as one of the keys to the Afghan conflict and who had been in Pakistan the day before the border incident for talks with the Pakistani army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, to discuss border co-operation.

In an interview in Kabul on Sunday, Allen refused to discuss details of the incident, saying it was under investigation. But he said: "We don't know where all of this will end up with Pakistan. We have been good friends with them for a long, long time, and this is a tragedy."

Isaf officers say the strike on Pakistani border positions took place when a joint force of Afghan and Isaf special forces carrying out a counterinsurgency operation in southern Kunar province came under fire and called in "close air support" from Nato aircraft. The air strikes hit two Pakistani border posts in the Mohmand tribal area on Saturday.

Pakistan's military refused to accept that its checkposts had been hit by accident, insisting that Isaf knew the location of the posts, on a mountaintop at Salala, next to the Afghan border.
Major General Athar Abbas, chief spokesman for the Pakistan military, told the Guardian on Sunday that he did not believe Isaf or Afghan forces had received fire from the Pakistani side. "I cannot rule out the possibility that this was a deliberate attack by Isaf," said Abbas. "If Isaf was receiving fire, then they must tell us what their losses were."

Pakistani officials said the posts hit are 300 metres into Pakistani territory, but Isaf officers say the border in that area is disputed.

Abbas said, however, that the firing lasted for over an hour, while Isaf made "no attempt" to contact the Pakistani side using an established border co-ordination system to report that they had come under fire. He said that the map references of the posts were previously passed to Isaf.

"This was a totally unprovoked attack. There are no safe havens or hideouts left there [for militants] in Mohmand," he said.

"This was a visible, well-made post, on top of ridges, made of concrete. Militants don't operate from mountaintops, from concrete structures."


Well well get ready for x americans killed in america meant in afghanistan

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## fd24

888jamie888 said:


> What??? The US has failed in Afghanistan, therefore in order to shift the blame they attack Pakistan? That makes no sense.



What certainly is not the case is your knowledge and comprehension is shining through like a beacon. You simply lack the knowledge of the history and political insight of the events that have occurred. I strongly recommend you absorbing some of the posts earlier in the thread to perhaps get a feel of what is going on - rather than posting one line dross posts. There are potentially half a dozen potential reasons why they attacked. I frankly dont care. The only thing i care about is these scumbag low life animals entered my fatherland and killed pakistani soldiers whilst they slept. 
We are a nation that will not forget and will not tolerate this sort of hostility. They have been very quiet in the last 24 hours. The silence is perhaps speaking very loudly and is voicing the guilt of what has happened. I dont normally agree with violent actions - however an eye for an eye. 
Last thing is some scum bag low life animals entered your nation and carried out atrocity of this nature - would you be asking and saying childish thicko statements like "it makes no sense?" I think not.

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## unicorn

How much venom currently Western media most notably the british and american are spewing against Pakistan.B@stards 



> Nato forces in Afghanistan were braced on Sunday for possible reprisals from Pakistani-backed insurgents following the coalition air strike along the border that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.[1]





> One Isaf source voiced concern that the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, could go much further and use its suspected influence over insurgent groups in the tribal areas along the Afghan border to launch reprisal attacks on Nato. "This will come back at us, and at a time and a place of their [the ISI's] choosing," the source predicted[1]





> Much of the fighting in Afghanistan is conducted by guerrillas based a short distance inside Pakistan. Nato forces are not allowed to cross the border and militants sometimes fire artillery and rockets across the line from locations close to Pakistani army posts[2]


[1]Nato braces for reprisals after deadly air strike on Pakistan border post | World news | The Guardian

[2]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/26/nato-air-attack-pakistan-soldiers?newsfeed=true


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Aryan_B said:


> *
> Nato braces for reprisals after deadly air strike on Pakistan border post*
> 
> Concerns the ISI intelligence agency could use its suspected influence over insurgent groups to launch reprisal attacks
> 
> 
> Julian Borger in Kabul and Saeed Shah in Karachi
> guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 20.52 GMT
> Article history
> 
> 
> 
> Nato forces in Afghanistan were braced on Sunday for possible reprisals from Pakistani-backed insurgents following the coalition air strike along the border that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.
> Senior officers from the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf), were scrambling to resume contacts with their Pakistani counterparts in the hopes of setting up a joint investigation into the incident.
> 
> But Pakistani officers severed communications and Islamabad cut Isaf's two supply routes running through Pakistan.
> 
> It also gave the US two weeks to vacate the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan, which has been used to launch American drone aircraft.
> 
> One Isaf source voiced concern that the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, could go much further and use its suspected influence over insurgent groups in the tribal areas along the Afghan border to launch reprisal attacks on Nato. "This will come back at us, and at a time and a place of their [the ISI's] choosing," the source predicted. In September the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said the ISI was using insurgent groups such as the Haqqani network to wage a "proxy war" in Afghanistan.
> 
> The incident, and the subsequent breakdown in relations with Pakistan, is a particular blow to the Isaf commander, US general John Allen, who sees the insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistan as one of the keys to the Afghan conflict and who had been in Pakistan the day before the border incident for talks with the Pakistani army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, to discuss border co-operation.
> 
> In an interview in Kabul on Sunday, Allen refused to discuss details of the incident, saying it was under investigation. But he said: "We don't know where all of this will end up with Pakistan. We have been good friends with them for a long, long time, and this is a tragedy."
> 
> Isaf officers say the strike on Pakistani border positions took place when a joint force of Afghan and Isaf special forces carrying out a counterinsurgency operation in southern Kunar province came under fire and called in "close air support" from Nato aircraft. The air strikes hit two Pakistani border posts in the Mohmand tribal area on Saturday.
> 
> Pakistan's military refused to accept that its checkposts had been hit by accident, insisting that Isaf knew the location of the posts, on a mountaintop at Salala, next to the Afghan border.
> Major General Athar Abbas, chief spokesman for the Pakistan military, told the Guardian on Sunday that he did not believe Isaf or Afghan forces had received fire from the Pakistani side. "I cannot rule out the possibility that this was a deliberate attack by Isaf," said Abbas. "If Isaf was receiving fire, then they must tell us what their losses were."
> 
> Pakistani officials said the posts hit are 300 metres into Pakistani territory, but Isaf officers say the border in that area is disputed.
> 
> Abbas said, however, that the firing lasted for over an hour, while Isaf made "no attempt" to contact the Pakistani side using an established border co-ordination system to report that they had come under fire. He said that the map references of the posts were previously passed to Isaf.
> 
> "This was a totally unprovoked attack. There are no safe havens or hideouts left there [for militants] in Mohmand," he said.
> 
> "This was a visible, well-made post, on top of ridges, made of concrete. Militants don't operate from mountaintops, from concrete structures."
> 
> 
> Well well get ready for x americans killed in america



Ameen... GOD BLESS ISI!

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## SMC

888jamie888 said:


> What??? The US has failed in Afghanistan, therefore in order to shift the blame they attack Pakistan? That makes no sense.



It makes complete sense. They need to show something to their people. Why they failed, who was responsible for their failure. Pakistan is rather obvious choice for them.

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## Guest01

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Afghans and NATO are idiots then for peddling this line - the WSJ article I posted earlier that provided some detailed quotes regarding the allegations of fire from the Pakistani post makes pretty clear that the Afghan troops were 'assuming' that the fire they were receiving was from the two posts. You cannot rationally argue that in complete darkness, in the middle of a military operation in mountainous terrain, that the troops allegedly under fire were able to very specifically pinpoint the location of the fire they were receiving as the two Pakistani border posts - certainly not from '2.5KM away' (if the location of the border post is correct).
> 
> Secondly, since Pakistan has provided the location of all its posts to ISAF and the ANA, one would have at the least expected ISAF to have checked whether or not they would be targeting a Pakistani position, and if so, first communicating with Pakistani authorities to address the issue of any alleged firing from the post.
> 
> There simple is no justification for NATO's actions here - they were either 'completely incompetent or completely complicit'.



I think that we are working with different sets of premise here. In no way, I am trying to imply that this was an error of omission. All logic points that this was deliberate. What is left is the question why. And to that I say that it would have been indeed a case there PA was actually covering for the Taliban and NATO just "erroneously" did not pull any stops on this one.


----------



## Guest01

Aryan_B said:


> *
> Nato braces for reprisals after deadly air strike on Pakistan border post*
> 
> Concerns the ISI intelligence agency could use its suspected influence over insurgent groups to launch reprisal attacks
> 
> 
> Julian Borger in Kabul and Saeed Shah in Karachi
> guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 20.52 GMT
> Article history
> 
> 
> 
> Nato forces in Afghanistan were braced on Sunday for possible reprisals from Pakistani-backed insurgents following the coalition air strike along the border that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.
> Senior officers from the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf), were scrambling to resume contacts with their Pakistani counterparts in the hopes of setting up a joint investigation into the incident.
> 
> But Pakistani officers severed communications and Islamabad cut Isaf's two supply routes running through Pakistan.
> 
> It also gave the US two weeks to vacate the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan, which has been used to launch American drone aircraft.
> 
> One Isaf source voiced concern that the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, could go much further and use its suspected influence over insurgent groups in the tribal areas along the Afghan border to launch reprisal attacks on Nato. "This will come back at us, and at a time and a place of their [the ISI's] choosing," the source predicted. In September the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said the ISI was using insurgent groups such as the Haqqani network to wage a "proxy war" in Afghanistan.
> 
> The incident, and the subsequent breakdown in relations with Pakistan, is a particular blow to the Isaf commander, US general John Allen, who sees the insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistan as one of the keys to the Afghan conflict and who had been in Pakistan the day before the border incident for talks with the Pakistani army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, to discuss border co-operation.
> 
> In an interview in Kabul on Sunday, Allen refused to discuss details of the incident, saying it was under investigation. But he said: "We don't know where all of this will end up with Pakistan. We have been good friends with them for a long, long time, and this is a tragedy."
> 
> Isaf officers say the strike on Pakistani border positions took place when a joint force of Afghan and Isaf special forces carrying out a counterinsurgency operation in southern Kunar province came under fire and called in "close air support" from Nato aircraft. The air strikes hit two Pakistani border posts in the Mohmand tribal area on Saturday.
> 
> Pakistan's military refused to accept that its checkposts had been hit by accident, insisting that Isaf knew the location of the posts, on a mountaintop at Salala, next to the Afghan border.
> Major General Athar Abbas, chief spokesman for the Pakistan military, told the Guardian on Sunday that he did not believe Isaf or Afghan forces had received fire from the Pakistani side. "I cannot rule out the possibility that this was a deliberate attack by Isaf," said Abbas. "If Isaf was receiving fire, then they must tell us what their losses were."
> 
> Pakistani officials said the posts hit are 300 metres into Pakistani territory, but Isaf officers say the border in that area is disputed.
> 
> Abbas said, however, that the firing lasted for over an hour, while Isaf made "no attempt" to contact the Pakistani side using an established border co-ordination system to report that they had come under fire. He said that the map references of the posts were previously passed to Isaf.
> 
> "This was a totally unprovoked attack. There are no safe havens or hideouts left there [for militants] in Mohmand," he said.
> 
> "This was a visible, well-made post, on top of ridges, made of concrete. Militants don't operate from mountaintops, from concrete structures."
> 
> 
> Well well get ready for x americans killed in america



So basically NATO are painting the target in advance here. For those who are hoping for this to come true, also give a thought to the aftermath of it. ISI being marked in anticipation of attacks on NATO troops is really not that good a thing that might be feeling at the moment. It will come with baggage.


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## Emmie

Wasn't this a massacre??


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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> ................... I want and i simply expect a strong response from Pakistan. ....................


 


Emmie said:


> ................... Anyway, I hope Pakistan is going to take some serious steps this time...................



Both of you are going to be disappointed I am afraid. Pakistan is in NO position to retaliate, directly or indirectly.], and will NOT be in a position to do so for quite a few years yet.

Demonizing me will not change that reality. Do what you will.


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## logic

The things that will happen after the NATO rampage

1. Loud Hollow Slogan Chanting.
2. A lot of chest thumping.
3. Political point scoring. 

things that will almost certainly happen

1. Pakistan will never break all civil and diplomatic and military ties.
2. More such attacks in the future.
3. More of all the above.

In the end when all is said and done the people of Pakistan will be left holding the bag as always. Our leadership has got no backbone. 
Some one want 5 more years while others might be eyeing yet an other EXTENSION.

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## 888jamie888

superkaif said:


> What certainly is not the case is your knowledge and comprehension is shining through like a beacon. You simply lack the knowledge of the history and political insight of the events that have occurred. I strongly recommend you absorbing some of the posts earlier in the thread to perhaps get a feel of what is going on - rather than posting one line dross posts. There are potentially half a dozen potential reasons why they attacked. I frankly dont care. The only thing i care about is these scumbag low life animals entered my fatherland and killed pakistani soldiers whilst they slept.
> We are a nation that will not forget and will not tolerate this sort of hostility. They have been very quiet in the last 24 hours. The silence is perhaps speaking very loudly and is voicing the guilt of what has happened. I dont normally agree with violent actions - however an eye for an eye.
> Last thing is some scum bag low life animals entered your nation and carried out atrocity of this nature - would you be asking and saying childish thicko statements like "it makes no sense?" I think not.


Face it, what you said made no sense. I honestly think it was a mistake. One line dross posts? Normally yours and many peoples posts on here are made up of overly long winded patriotic drivel. The rest is normally insulting Indians, western puppets and in your case, me.
Again, NATO has not come out of this well. They have blood on their hands, supplies are being blocked, their world image has been damaged considerably and they potentially lost a valuable ally. Why would they do that on purpose? Do enlighten me. 
Have the been quiet? They've pretty much admitted it was them and are now keeping quiet in order to investigate. That is the right thing to do. Maybe you should wait for some more answers before calling for blood and generalizing NATO as low life animals.
Seeing as you live in the UK, maybe you should stop being such a keyboard warrior, get outside and call the next person you say a low life animal.

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## VCheng

logic said:


> But Its the only thing that sets you free.



Of course. Pakistanis have paid for their freedom in blood, just like this incident, and will continue to do so. It is pity that those who die and betrayed by those who lead them.

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Both of you are going to be disappointed I am afraid. Pakistan is in NO position to retaliate, directly or indirectly.], and will NOT be in a position to do so for quite a few years yet.
> 
> Demonizing me will not change that reality. Do what you will.



For gods sake we have had 26 brave soldiers, defenders of our nation made into shaeeds. we are all hurt and feel pain and you allways think its about you. Its not about you cheng we dont give a damn about you. We care about those 26 souls who will never be seen by their loved ones again

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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Chamchas ir traitors are disposeable...



So why have you collected so many of them in Pindi and Islamabad?


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Of course. Pakistanis have paid for their freedom in blood, just like this incident, and will continue to do so. It is pity that those who die and betrayed by those who lead them.



at least today keep your trap shut under these circumstances

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## pakdefender

Guest01 said:


> So basically NATO are painting the target in advance here. For those who are hoping for this to come true, also give a thought to the aftermath of it. ISI being marked in anticipation of attacks on NATO troops is really not that good a thing that might be feeling at the moment. It will come with baggage.



we are already under attack and we are already being demonized so I say we turn up the heat on these bastards in afghanistan , they have spilled enough of our blood!!


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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> For gods sake we have had 26 brave soldiers, defenders of our nation made into shaeeds. we are all hurt and feel pain and you sad bastarxx allways think its about you. Its not about you cheng we dont give a damn about you. We care about those 26 souls who will never be seen by their loved ones again



Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.

Fact.

Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality.


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> So why have you collected so many of them in Pindi and Islamabad?



what you feeling bad you are not amongst them and they rejected you. Just like the TTs on this forum,

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## 888jamie888

SMC said:


> It makes complete sense. They need to show something to their people. Why they failed, who was responsible for their failure. Pakistan is rather obvious choice for them.


So by launching an unprovoked attack on Pakistan and killing 28 people: They are telling the public, Look! We attacked them! Therefore they are responsible for our failure. Somehow I don't think they will buy it.


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> we are already under attack and we are already being demonized so I say we turn up the heat on these bastards in afghanistan , they have spilled enough of our blood!!



That would be one way to retaliate, yes, as long as it can be done in an effective way.


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## unicorn

Emmie said:


> Wasn't this a massacre??



This video is not related to this incident.






A Pakistani boy, bottom, shouts slogans along with other protestors during a rally to condemn NATO helicopters attacks on Pakistani troops, on the outskirts of Islamabad, Pakistan, Sunday, Nov. 27, 2011

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.
> 
> Fact.
> 
> Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality.



and they say allah takes the best ones first so traitors and quislings like you sadly will be around for a long time

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## Guest01

notorious_eagle said:


> Well if the people in West choose to ignore any reason, than there is nothing we can do. Where is the proof that Pakistan supports the Taliban? Why in the world would Pakistan support the Taliban when they are hell bent on destroying our country, their is enough evidence to suggest that the TTP have enough support from Taliban in Afghanistan as they constantly keep attacking Pakistani positions from their hideouts in Afghanistan.
> 
> The US is not winning the war in Afghanistan is because it has failed to win the hearts and minds of the locals. The US has used the strategy of bombs over butter, every other day innocent civilians are killed by NATO fire, how possibly can the US expect loyalty from the Afghans when they are killing their brothers and sisters left right and centre. Pakistan wants a stable Afghanistan that is not hostile to her interests, not dominance as history has proved that no foreigner can accomplish that.



And I am surprised that we are talking about the same war in Afghanistan. Because from where I look, I see Pakistan army, with all its machinations in all their manifestations being hell bent on ensuring that the only peace that prevails in Afghanistan is the one which is acceptable to Pakistan army's hegemonic ambitions. Come what may, and it does not really matter for them if people like Rabbani need to be turban bombed, amongst other such developments.




notorious_eagle said:


> Oh puleez, majority of the Indian members except for a few have just added salt to the wound. Don't try and pretend that you have Pakistan's best interests in your heart, you are fooling no one. Regarding colour, i agree Aryan_B went over the line and shouldn't have used race in his post.



What can I say....I guess it depends on the cause of the problem that you see and the difference in that with my view. I see the cause of the problem as being Pakistani army command for what it has done in past and what it seeks to do now. I am sure that an average Pakistani will not care at all if there is Idi Amin running Afghanistan as long as it is at peace with Pakistan. Our difference is in our understanding of the nature of this problem and that is why my comments may sound acerbic to you. However, I still hope that you do not find me in agreement with disrespecting the dead. In such case, I will have failed certainly.


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## pakdefender

VCheng said:


> Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.
> 
> Fact.
> 
> Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality.



tell the same to the americans getting killed in afghanistan and tell this to you US senators also


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## Mabs

@ Vcheng
While You do talk about the facts and the reality,one thing you seem to undermine is the strength of the human spirit. Case in point is the Dolittle strike after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Some times the human spirit truimphs where everything else has failed.


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## 53fd

It's very simple. Pakistan must boycott the Bonn conference that is coming up along with other diplomatic (& military) engagements, keep the supply lines closed, clamp down on US presence inside Pakistan, order them to evacuate Shamsi base. Instead of burning bridges inside Afghanistan, they need to build a stake for themselves inside Afghanistan, & without an outright confrontation with the US, make sure that they feel the heat in Afghanistan. I was not in favor of Imran Khan, but I am starting to realize what he says makes sense.


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## Emmie

VCheng said:


> Both of you are going to be disappointed I am afraid. Pakistan is in NO position to retaliate, directly or indirectly.], and will NOT be in a position to do so for quite a few years yet.
> 
> Demonizing me will not change that reality. Do what you will.



Let it be.. At least we are doing what needs to be done, standing beside 28 unfortunate families, calling spade a spade, unlike you and many others.

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.
> 
> Fact.
> 
> Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality.


 
So why do you put on bangles and cry when american soldiers die???

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## President Camacho

> Senior officers from the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf), were scrambling to resume contacts with their Pakistani counterparts in the hopes of setting up a joint investigation into the incident.



^^^ For all those who were doubting whether there would be any joint investigation with Pakistan as an investigating party.


> *The incident, and the subsequent breakdown in relations with Pakistan, is a particular blow to the Isaf commander, US general John Allen*, who sees the insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistan as one of the keys to the Afghan conflict and who had been in Pakistan the day before the border incident for talks with the Pakistani army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, to discuss border co-operation.



^^^ For all those who think it was a deliberate NATO sanctioned attack to kill a few Pakistani troops... for what? Sh!ts n giggles??? This attack is a bigger loss to NATO than it is to Pakistan. For a nation or an army, troops can be replaced, but the opportunities and strategic moments and allies cannot. They are not fools to shoot themselves in the foot after coming so long into this war.



For once, I get the feeling that Afghan intelligence too might have played a part in this.

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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> @ Vcheng
> While You do talk about the facts and the reality,one thing you seem to undermine is the strength of the human spirit. Case in point is the Dolittle strike after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Some times the human spirit truimphs where everything else has failed.



Oh I believe in the human spirit all right. I hope that Pakistan triumphs against all odds. But I also keep my eyes and ears open to realistically evaluate the chances of that happening.


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## lem34

bilalhaider said:


> It's very simple. Pakistan must boycott the Bonn conference that is coming up along with other diplomatic (& military) engagements, keep the supply lines closed, clamp down on US presence inside Pakistan, order them to evacuate Shamsi base. Instead of burning bridges inside Afghanistan, they need to build a stake for themselves inside Afghanistan, & without an outright confrontation with the US, make sure that they feel the heat in Afghanistan. I was not in favor of Imran Khan, but I am starting to realize what he says makes sense.



No we must go and participate and back up the neighbourhood and stand firm with Russia china Iran and the rest that were critical of american silk road bolloxs

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> It's very simple. *Pakistan must boycott the Bonn conference that is coming up along with other diplomatic (& military) engagements, keep the supply lines closed, clamp down on US presence inside Pakistan, order them to evacuate Shamsi base.* Instead of burning bridges inside Afghanistan, they need to build a stake for themselves inside Afghanistan, & without an outright confrontation with the US, *make sure that they feel the heat in Afghanistan*. I was not in favor of Imran Khan, but I am starting to realize what he says makes sense.



Most of that will NOT happen.



Emmie said:


> Let it be.. At least we are doing what needs to be done, standing beside 28 unfortunate families, calling spade a spade, unlike you and many others.



As you should. The nation must support the families of the martyred. It is the right thing to do.



Aryan_B said:


> So why do you put on bangles and cry when american soldiers die???



I regret all loss of life.


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## 888jamie888

President Camacho said:


> ^^^ For all those who were doubting whether there would be any joint investigation with Pakistan as an investigating party.
> 
> 
> ^^^ For all those who think it was a deliberate NATO sanctioned attack to kill a few Pakistani troops... for what? Sh!ts n giggles??? This attack is a bigger loss to NATO than it is to Pakistan. For a nation or an army, troops can be replaced, but the opportunities and strategic moments and allies cannot. They are not fools to shoot themselves in the foot after coming so long into this war.
> 
> 
> 
> For once, I get the feeling that Afghan intelligence too might have played a part in this.


At last some sense.


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## American Pakistani

NATO has made it too much messy, it seems impossible to recover the relations back to normal. There is too much fury & anger in Public, media as well as Armed Forces. Don't know about polititions though.


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## 53fd

Aryan_B said:


> No we must go and participate and back up the neighbourhood and stand firm with Russia china Iran and the rest that were critical of american silk road bolloxs



Yes, that is part of what I was saying as well. The countries in the neighborhood (like Iran, Russia, China) have a real stake in the region, not the US.


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Oh I believe in the human spirit all right. I hope that Pakistan triumphs against all odds. But I also keep my eyes and ears open to realistically evaluate the chances of that happening.



No you dont you are a hypocrite liar hiding under words and thats all they are like truth realist pragmatist etc. We know what you are quisling I will never forget that on a day like this you still think its about you you self centered liar

---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> Yes, that is part of what I was saying as well. The countries in the neighborhood (like Iran, Russia, China) have a real stake in the region, not the US.



yea we need to be their in bonn to air our views and stand firm against the silk road suggested by america and wanted by india

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## Emmie

@Unicorn, thankx bro for rectification.


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## Omar1984

Pakistanis need to be more nationalistic and confident and have high self-esteem. This slavery submissive attitude should have been gone when we won our independence in August 14, 1947.

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## Mabs

One thing that people seem to be missing is that this was not just any other post. This was the company headquarters and the NATO had held many meetings here. The coordinates of all the locations along with the reference maps are routinely shared to precisely avoid this kinda situation. The rationale of fire emanating from the said post would have made sense if it was just another post and not the Cmp headquarters. You would expect the NATO forces to flinch a little before they go ahead and flatten a post housing the company headquarters even during the chaos of a battle.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> So why have you collected so many of them in Pindi and Islamabad?



And the biggest of them ... a disgrace is on PDF...Disrespecting our MARTYRS!

I feel like throwing up when i see you!

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## VCheng

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistanis need to be more nationalistic and confident and have high self-esteem. This slavery submissive attitude should have been gone when we won our independence in August 14, 1947.



Good words, but national confidence is based in good education, health, social justice and economic opportunity. So without developing these things over the last 60 years, this submissive attitude will continue. Sad but true.

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## pakdefender

President Camacho said:


> ^^^ For all those who were doubting whether there would be any joint investigation with Pakistan as an investigating party.
> 
> 
> ^^^ For all those who think it was a deliberate NATO sanctioned attack to kill a few Pakistani troops... for what? Sh!ts n giggles??? This attack is a bigger loss to NATO than it is to Pakistan. For a nation or an army, troops can be replaced, but the opportunities and strategic moments and allies cannot. They are not fools to shoot themselves in the foot after coming so long into this war.
> 
> 
> 
> For once, I get the feeling that Afghan intelligence too might have played a part in this.




Well NATO/US has pre-concieved prejudices against Pakistan , which mainly stem from the fact that we are the only nuclear armed Muslim nation , they have tired to screw us in this conflict from the start and with this delibrate attack if they have shot themelves in the foot its their own doing .. they belived whatever **** the indians fed them , **** that the afganis fed them ... there is price to pay for murder and they have gone too far this time around.

Their failure in afghanistan is not our resposibility but to take revenge for the loss of our personel due to their agressions is defintly our right and our responsibility , which we will excecise.


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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And the biggest of them ... a disgrace is on PDF...Disrespecting our MARTYRS!



Who disrespected any martyr?

Your own leaders, when they sit down and make peace with NATO yet again, will disrespect their blood more than anyone else could.

Keep that in mind.


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## American Pakistani

Pakistani soldiers pay their last respects to their colleagues killed in the air strike. Illustration: Mohammad Sajjad/AP

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistanis need to be more nationalistic and confident and have high self-esteem. This slavery submissive attitude should have been gone when we won our independence in August 14, 1947.



NEVER were slaves... NEVER will be!

VCheng aka spoon aka Capt america is a .... american wannabe!....who disgusts us PAKISTANIS!

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## 53fd

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And the biggest of them ... a disgrace is on PDF...Disrespecting our MARTYRS!



There's no point in arguing with someone who believes it is the fault of the soldiers that got killed by helicopters when they intruded 1.5 miles into Pakistan territory. It's like saying it is the fault of a rape victim when a rapist intrudes their house & rapes that individual. And the biggest irony is, he claims he regrets all loss of life, but he hasn't shown any regret in his posts here: his posts are inflammatory & disrespectful to the martyred soldiers.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> Who disrespected any martyr?
> 
> Your own leaders, when they sit down and make peace with NATO yet again, will disrespect their blood more than anyone else could.
> 
> Keep that in mind.



And you accuse the troops and side with america defending them like a hound!

Bravo... Slave...


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## American Pakistani

*Pakistan's reaction to border post air strike leaves Nato tactics in disarray*

The deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers in a Nato air strike wreck hopes of improved co-operation on either side of the border



Julian Borger and Jon Boone in Kabul, Saeed Shah in Karachi and Ed Pilkington in New York 
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 16.06 EST


Nato's prosecution of the war in Afghanistan has been thrown into disarray following the deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers in an alleged Nato air attack on a border post, wrecking hopes of improved co-operation on either side of the border.

Amid reports of potential reprisal attacks, US and allied commanders now face a diplomatic nightmare after Islamabad accused Nato of launching a deliberate act of aggression, prompting a further deterioration in US-Pakistan relations.

Pakistan's role in the fight against the Taliban is considered crucial, given the extensive contacts that elements of its military maintain with insurgent groups inside Afghanistan.

The incident is a major blow to the US commander of the Nato-led coalition in Afghanistan, General John Allen, who aims to focus his forces' efforts along the eastern border provinces where the insurgency is at its fiercest and is still worsening. The Isaf coalition sees the insurgent bases on the Pakistani border as key to the campaign.

Allen had just returned from a meeting with the Pakistani army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, to discuss border co-operation. In an interview in Kabul, he told the Guardian: "We have expressed our condolences and regrets. We certainly understand the loss of any life is sad and regrettable and the lives of Pakistani soldiers are precious to us as well. An investigation will be convened shortly, we are in the information-gathering phase now."

The attack took place at an outpost on a mountain about 1.5 miles from the border, in the Mohmand part of the tribal area. Details of what happened remain sketchy, with the two sides giving conflicting accounts.

The Pakistani military claimed that the attack, in the early hours of Saturday morning, was a deliberate assault on a well-known position manned by regular troops, calling the incident "unprovoked" and an "irresponsible act".

US officials suggested the Nato force was acting in self-defence, having come under fire from across the border inside Pakistan. Isaf officers said the incident happened when a mostly Afghan force came under fire when carrying out operations in southern Kunar province. They called in "close air support" from Nato, which responded with helicopters and possibly fixed-wing planes as well. The Isaf officers said the fact that the border in the mountainous area was in dispute may have played a role.

An Afghan government official echoed the claims of western diplomats that the Afghan-Nato team had received incoming fire from "the so-called Pakistani post", prompting them to call for close air support. "The most important point here is that they were receiving fire from the direction of the post," he said.

In the past, confusion has been caused by Taliban insurgents firing into Afghanistan from positions close to Pakistani checkpoints, making it appear Nato and Afghan troops were under attack from the Pakistani posts. Pakistani soldiers have shot into the air to warn Nato helicopters they have crossed the border, which has been mistaken by the aircraft crew for incoming fire.

On Sunday, Pakistan raised the possibility that it would boycott next month's international Bonn conference, which is supposed to discuss Afghanistan's future. Tehmina Janjua, spokesman for the ministry of foreign affairs, said the Bonn issue "is being examined and no decision has yet been taken in this regard".

The Bonn conference, scheduled for 5 December, will mark a decade since the first international meeting was held there to decide Afghanistan's future. Although it had once been hoped that the new Bonn meeting might kick off the peace process in Afghanistan, expectations had already been lowered. If a key regional player such as Pakistan stays away, the event will appear even more hollow.

The death toll from the latest incident makes it the most bloody blow to the alliance between the US and Pakistan over the decade of the Afghan war.

Pakistan has closed two border crossings that act as a supply route for Nato troops in Afghanistan, and ordered the US to leave the Shamsi air base in western Pakistan &#8211; which has been a staging post for drones &#8211; within 15 days.

The relationship between the two countries is already under intense strain following a string of incidents, including the US raid on Abbottabad to kill Osama bin Laden in May; Pakistan's incarceration of a CIA contractor, Raymond Davis; US claims that Pakistan supported a militant attack on the American embassy in Kabul; and numerous US drone strikes that have killed Pakistani civilians in the tribal border regions with Afghanistan.

Allen, speaking immediately after discussing the issue with Afghanistan's president, Hamid Karzai, would not give details of the most recent incident but talked in general terms about the area in which it occurred: "The border is very difficult here. We have troops operating at over 10,000 feet. That's difficult enough but it's also difficult because there are different lines on the maps when it comes to the border. We don't always agree on the border, so we seek to ensure close co-ordination, and part of the relationship with the Pakistanis is a border co-ordination relationship which has real operational implications."

With the Obama administration in full damage-limitation mode, senior US officials made contact with their Pakistani equivalents over the weekend promising a full investigation. The secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, and the defence secretary, Leon Panetta, issued a joint statement offering "their deepest condolences for the loss of life and support fully Nato's intention to investigate immediately". US diplomats stressed the importance of the US-Pakistani partnership, "which serves the mutual interests of our people", the statement said.

The US ambassador to Islamabad, Cameron Munter, who was summoned to Pakistan's foreign ministry for an official protest, pledged that the US would "work closely with Pakistan to investigate this incident".

Outside the administration, there were calls for the US to take a harder line with Pakistan. Jon Kyl, second-ranking Republican in the US senate, called for "tough diplomacy [with Pakistan] in the sense that they need to understand that our support for them financially is dependent upon their co-operation with us".

Amid the flurry of diplomacy, funerals were held for the dead soldiers in Peshawar on Sunday. Prayers conducted in front of 24 coffins, each wrapped in a Pakistani flag, were televised live. The army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, attended the service at a military base, as did leading officials from the north-west provincial administration.

Thousands gathered outside the American consulate in Karachi to protest against the air attack, shouting "Down with America".
*
Afghans living in Kunar said they were delighted by the strike against the bases, saying they believed Taliban fighters were being harboured by the Pakistani army.

"These terrorists wear civilian clothes and then when they have done their attacks in Afghanistan they go to the Pakistan checkpoints," said Qari Ehsanullah Ehsan, a tribal leader from the province, "Some of them wear fake beards and then put on Pakistani military clothes when they finish their operations.

"The people of Kunar are happy. We have been telling the Americans for a long time that the Pakistanis are bringing the Taliban to our villages."*

What a dumb people they are, celebrating martyrs of other country by not even their own force. But one thing i like they are patriot gulaams.


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## 888jamie888

Damn, some people need to calm down. VCheng is entitled to his opinion without being insulted. He's speaking some truths. It's just everyone else is blinded by nationalism and bloodlust.


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## Omar1984

*Nato braces for reprisals after deadly air strike on Pakistan border post*

Concerns the ISI intelligence agency could use its suspected influence over insurgent groups to launch reprisal attacks







Nato forces in Afghanistan were braced on Sunday for possible reprisals from Pakistani-backed insurgents following the coalition air strike along the border that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

Senior officers from the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf), were scrambling to resume contacts with their Pakistani counterparts in the hopes of setting up a joint investigation into the incident.

But Pakistani officers severed communications and Islamabad cut Isaf's two supply routes running through Pakistan.

It also gave the US two weeks to vacate the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan, which has been used to launch American drone aircraft.

One Isaf source voiced concern that the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, could go much further and use its suspected influence over insurgent groups in the tribal areas along the Afghan border to launch reprisal attacks on Nato. "This will come back at us, and at a time and a place of their [the ISI's] choosing," the source predicted. In September the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said the ISI was using insurgent groups such as the Haqqani network to wage a "proxy war" in Afghanistan.

The incident, and the subsequent breakdown in relations with Pakistan, is a particular blow to the Isaf commander, US general John Allen, who sees the insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistan as one of the keys to the Afghan conflict and who had been in Pakistan the day before the border incident for talks with the Pakistani army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, to discuss border co-operation.

In an interview in Kabul on Sunday, Allen refused to discuss details of the incident, saying it was under investigation. But he said: "We don't know where all of this will end up with Pakistan. We have been good friends with them for a long, long time, and this is a tragedy."

Isaf officers say the strike on Pakistani border positions took place when a joint force of Afghan and Isaf special forces carrying out a counterinsurgency operation in southern Kunar province came under fire and called in "close air support" from Nato aircraft. The air strikes hit two Pakistani border posts in the Mohmand tribal area on Saturday.

Pakistan's military refused to accept that its checkposts had been hit by accident, insisting that Isaf knew the location of the posts, on a mountaintop at Salala, next to the Afghan border.

Major General Athar Abbas, chief spokesman for the Pakistan military, told the Guardian on Sunday that he did not believe Isaf or Afghan forces had received fire from the Pakistani side. "I cannot rule out the possibility that this was a deliberate attack by Isaf," said Abbas. "If Isaf was receiving fire, then they must tell us what their losses were."

Pakistani officials said the posts hit are 300 metres into Pakistani territory, but Isaf officers say the border in that area is disputed.

Abbas said, however, that the firing lasted for over an hour, while Isaf made "no attempt" to contact the Pakistani side using an established border co-ordination system to report that they had come under fire. He said that the map references of the posts were previously passed to Isaf.

"This was a totally unprovoked attack. There are no safe havens or hideouts left there [for militants] in Mohmand," he said.

"This was a visible, well-made post, on top of ridges, made of concrete. Militants don't operate from mountaintops, from concrete structures."


Nato braces for reprisals after deadly air strike on Pakistan border post | World news | The Guardian


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## notorious_eagle

Guest01 said:


> And I am surprised that we are talking about the same war in Afghanistan. Because from where I look, I see Pakistan army, with all its machinations in all their manifestations being hell bent on ensuring that the only peace that prevails in Afghanistan is the one which is acceptable to Pakistan army's hegemonic ambitions. Come what may, and it does not really matter for them if people like Rabbani need to be turban bombed, amongst other such developments.



So PA is responsible for the death of Rabbani? Is it PA's fault that Afghan officials were that incompetent that they could not even tell whether this messenger was a true a representative of the Taliban or not. There is no evidence to suggest that the death of Rabbani was by any means directed by the ISI. PA has always made its policy clear regarding Afghanistan that they want a strong stable Afghanistan that is not hostile to Pakistan's interests. The last thing PA wants is to send forces to expel invading Afghans from our territory. Our memory is still fresh when the Army during the early 60's had to be sent to Bajaur to expel invading Afghans. There is nothing of strategic value that Afghanistan adds to Pakistan, so keep this all B.S talk of PA's hegemonic designs to yourself. The only thing that PA wants is not a hostile Afghanistan, after all its perfectly legitimate for us to protect our flank as we do not want to be sandwiched in from two sides. As an Indian you should be the last person to lecture me about intervening militarily in your neighbours internal affairs as India's record is quite poor in this regard. 



Guest01 said:


> What can I say....I guess it depends on the cause of the problem that you see and the difference in that with my view. I see the cause of the problem as being Pakistani army command for what it has done in past and what it seeks to do now. I am sure that an average Pakistani will not care at all if there is Idi Amin running Afghanistan as long as it is at peace with Pakistan. Our difference is in our understanding of the nature of this problem and that is why my comments may sound acerbic to you. However, I still hope that you do not find me in agreement with disrespecting the dead. In such case, I will have failed certainly.



I do not find you disrespecting our war dead but i can not help but notice that the propaganda machine has certainly taken its toll on your judgement. Your making PA sound like some evil monster institution that is out to conquer all the world. As i have said it before and i will say it again, PA wants a friendly and stable Afghanistan that is not hostile to Pakistan's interests. There is no evidence to suggest that PA is hindering the peace talks in Afghanistan, its not PA's fault that the entire operation that ISAF conducted and the political solutions they have tried to employ have been an absolute failure. As a face facing mechanism like always, they are just trying to shift the blame towards Pakistan. PA would love nothing more than to move back from our Western borders and end all the hostilities. This war has cost PA immensely in terms of soldiers lost and wounded.

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## 53fd

888jamie888 said:


> Damn, some people need to calm down. VCheng is entitled to his opinion without being insulted.



No one's stopping him from saying what he wants.

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## lem34

888jamie888 said:


> Damn, some people need to calm down. VCheng is entitled to his opinion without being insulted. He's speaking some truths. It's just everyone else is blinded by nationalism and bloodlust.



yea when 28 brits or american soldiers die we will do the same as you and cheng.

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## American Pakistani

*Pakistan has had enough*

*The assumption that it has no choice but to obey America may turn out to be a dire strategic error*






Simon Tisdall
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 15.35 EST
Article history






Readers of Dawn newspaper, commenting online, were in no doubt how the Pakistani government should respond to Saturday's killing by US forces of 28 soldiers on Pakistan's side of the Afghan border. "Pakistan should acquire anti-aircraft defence systems ... so that in the future Pakistan can give Nato forces a proper reply," said Ali. "This is outrageous," wrote another reader, Zia Khan. "We should cut off all ties with the US. As long as we are getting US [anti-terror] aid ... Pakistan will be attacked in such a manner. They can never be trusted." Another, Obaid, turned his wrath on the Pakistani authorities: "Our self-centred establishment with their fickle loyalties can't even demand that the killers be tried in a neutral court ... What is the ability of our armed forces? If they can't repel or intercept an attack of this intensity, then what's their purpose? This is not a time to get mad. It's time to get even."

The fury of these respondents comes as no surprise, but Washington should treat it with deadly seriousness all the same, for this latest outrage is another fateful signpost on the road to a potential security and geostrategic disaster that may ultimately make Afghanistan look like a sideshow.

The 10-year-old Afghan war, neither wholly won nor lost, is slowly drawing to a close &#8211; or so Washington postulates. But what has not stopped is the linked, escalating destabilisation of the infinitely more important, more populous, and nuclear-armed Pakistan. If Washington does not quickly learn to tread more carefully, it may find the first US-Pakistan war is beginning just as the fourth Afghan war supposedly ends.

*Anti-American feeling in Pakistan is becoming institutionalised at the higher levels of government, while opposition figures such as Imran Khan see their popularity rise on the back of diatribes aimed at Washington.* Pakistan's western-educated, secular political elite is under brutal attack from Islamist militants who revile them as Washington's stooges. The knock-kneed government is mocked and despised for failing to stand up to its infidel paymasters even as Pakistan's own "war on terror" death toll rises into the tens of thousands.

_Since 2001, when the Bush administration bluntly told Islamabad it must take sides, be either "for us or agin us" in the newly declared "war on terror", Pakistan has struggled under a plethora of imperious American demands, démarches and impositions that are at once politically indefensible and contrary to the perceived national interest._

*The last year has been another humiliating one at the hands of the country's principal ally. Pakistanis have looked on impotently as US special forces flouted its sovereignty and killed Osama bin Laden under the army's nose; as the US stepped up drone terror attacks in Pakistani territory despite repeated protests; and as people-pleasing US senators and Republican presidential candidates have taken to picking on Pakistan and its aid bill in uninformed foreign policy rants.*

Hillary Clinton and the Pentagon top brass have responded to Saturday's killing with the usual expressions of regret and of determination to "investigate", without formally admitting responsibility. Their pronouncements are worthless, transparently so.

*The belief that weak, impoverished, divided Pakistan has no alternative but to slavishly obey its master's voice could turn out to be one of the seminal strategic miscalculations of the 21st century. Alternative alliances with China or Russia aside, Muslim Pakistan, if bullied and scorned for long enough by its western mentors, could yet morph through external trauma and internal collapse into quite a different animal. The future paradigm here is not another well-trained Indonesia or Malaysia. It is the Islamic Republic of Iran.*

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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> NEVER were slaves... NEVER will be!
> 
> .....................



The reality is rather different, isn't it? Take a good look around you.



bilalhaider said:


> There's no point in arguing with someone who believes it is the fault of the soldiers that got killed by helicopters when they intruded 1.5 miles into Pakistan territory. It's like saying it is the fault of a rape victim when a rapist intrudes their house & rapes that individual. And the biggest irony is, he claims he regrets all loss of life, but he hasn't shown any regret in his posts here: his posts are inflammatory & disrespectful to the martyred soldiers.



My posts are factual, calm, and rational, and shall remain so.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And you accuse the troops and side with america defending them like a hound!
> 
> ..............



I have not accused the martyred troops of anything; I have merely pointed out that where the fire originated from that led to the the counterstrike is still being investigated.



888jamie888 said:


> Damn, some people need to calm down. VCheng is entitled to his opinion without being insulted. He's speaking some truths. It's just everyone else is blinded by nationalism and bloodlust.



I feel no insult in speaking out honestly and correctly, for events will prove who is right and who is wrong soon enough.

We have seen this type of hysteria before with the RD case, and just like then, this emotional froth will fizzle out too.


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## lem34

American Pakistani said:


> *Pakistan has had enough*
> 
> *The assumption that it has no choice but to obey America may turn out to be a dire strategic error*
> 
> *The belief that weak, impoverished, divided Pakistan has no alternative but to slavishly obey its master's voice could turn out to be one of the seminal strategic miscalculations of the 21st century. Alternative alliances with China or Russia aside, Muslim Pakistan, if bullied and scorned for long enough by its western mentors, could yet morph through external trauma and internal collapse into quite a different animal. The future paradigm here is not another well-trained Indonesia or Malaysia. It is the Islamic Republic of Iran.*




An Iran with the fastest expanding nuclear arsenal in the world

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## 888jamie888

bilalhaider said:


> No one's stopping him from saying what he wants.


*Without being insulted.*


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## lem34

888jamie888 said:


> *Without being insulted.*



showing disrespect to our martyrs what do you expect? I would like to see what you would say on his comments if 28 brits had been murdered in their sleep by supposed allies


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## Omar1984

Aryan_B said:


> An Iran with the fastest expanding nuclear arsenal in the world



Iran will also soon be a Nuclear Power InshAllah

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## 888jamie888

Aryan_B said:


> yea when 28 brits or american soldiers die we will do the same as you and cheng.


We haven't even done anything wrong. We haven't insulted the dead or deny the event happened. So yes you can do the same.


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## uswrld

I just do not understand the logic of current military and political leadership. I do not blame political a lot because every one knows whose interests they r watching. Both leaderships pay journalists to threaten public by saying " v can not fight U.S.; they will make Tora bora of Pakistan" SO if v keep mum thats how our troops and citizens will be killed. If v chose to fight may b v would be able to kill at lease half if not equivalent of NATO soldiers. That's why say honorable death is better than baighart life. All military leadership is on extension so how can they think of their troops. All RAGE is just lipservice and it will be same within less than one week.


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## 53fd

888jamie888 said:


> *Without being insulted.*



Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is insult.

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## 888jamie888

Aryan_B said:


> showing disrespect to our martyrs what do you expect? I would like to see what you would say on his comments if 28 brits had been murdered in their sleep by supposed allies


I've seen loads of people disrespect NATO dead on this forum, I don't go ranting. What makes them martyrs?


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## American Pakistani

Key points to note from article & could be true.

-The assumption that it has no choice but to obey America may turn out to be a dire strategic error
-fury of a common Pakistani(whole as Pakistanis)
-If Washington does not quickly learn to tread more carefully, it may find the first US-Pakistan war is beginning just as the fourth Afghan war supposedly ends.
-Alternative alliances with China or Russia.
-Anti-American feeling all time high in public as well as Armed Forces & media.
-The belief that weak, impoverished, divided Pakistan has no alternative but to slavishly obey its master's voice could turn out to be one of the seminal strategic miscalculations of the 21st century.
-If bullied or scorned further it could turn out to be another Islamic Republic of Iran.
-Ability of Armed Forces of Pakistan also questioned by common public of Pakistan.


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## uswrld

Just wanted to add they have capability to even read time of watch worn by you but it was a TACTICAL MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!! Trust me they are just testing waters before a full assault and our leaderships knows that but have their foreign accounts inflated everytime

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> My posts are factual, calm, and rational, and shall remain so.



It's funny because you've already come to your verdict on the fault of the Pakistani soldiers. But I could have sworn that you said that we have to wait for the results of the investigation before coming to a final conclusion. How can your posts on this incident be factual when the facts have not been determined in the form of an investigation (which you called for)?

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## 888jamie888

bilalhaider said:


> Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is insult.


Slave, liar, hound etc. Hardly endearing terms.


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## Omar1984

uswrld said:


> I just do not understand the logic of current military and political leadership. I do not blame political a lot because every one knows whose interests they r watching. Both leaderships pay journalists to threaten public by saying " v can not fight U.S.; they will make Tora bora of Pakistan" SO if v keep mum thats how our troops and citizens will be killed. If v chose to fight may b v would be able to kill at lease half if not equivalent of NATO soldiers. That's why say honorable death is better than baighart life. All military leadership is on extension so how can they think of their troops. All RAGE is just lipservice and it will be same within less than one week.



Pakistan has some influence on insurgents so I'm guessing Pakistan will fight NATO indirectly while keeping a fake smile to their face that they give us.

Two can play this game.

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## President Camacho

Aryan_B said:


> yea when 28 brits or american soldiers die we will do the same as you and cheng.



You won't have to do it Aryan, there's already a whole team in this forum that cheers, laughs, and dances at the news of NATO troops perishing in Afghanistan. Many actually claim to throng _mithai_ shops, so they can celebrate those deaths in the most joyous ways possible.

Now let's count how many Americans have shown any sort of satisfaction/happiness at the news of the death of these 28 Pak soldiers... what do you say?

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## Omar1984

888jamie888 said:


> Slave, liar, hound etc. Hardly endearing terms.



If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck then is it is a ........

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## 53fd

888jamie888 said:


> Slave, liar, hound etc. Hardly endearing terms.



Again, you seem to be the one that seems to be insulted. These terms could also be used out of 'love & concern' for another individual, just like other comparable words are used for our people.


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## lem34

President Camacho said:


> You won't have to do it Aryan, there's already a whole team in this forum that cheers, laughs, and dances at the news of NATO troops perishing in Afghanistan.
> 
> Now let's count how many Americans have shown any sort of satisfaction/happiness at the news of the death of these 28 Pak soldiers... what do you say?



I have been looking at american press and rather than saying sorry or showing regret all they are concerned about his how they are going to get supplies into afghanistan or what consequences this is going to have ie a few american deaths. they value white mans death more than one of ours they are animals

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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> showing disrespect to our martyrs what do you expect? I would like to see what you would say on his comments if 28 brits had been murdered in their sleep by supposed allies


 
I have not disrespected any dead or martyred. Please do not slander.



bilalhaider said:


> It's funny because you've already come to your verdict on the fault of the Pakistani soldiers. But I could have sworn that you said that we have to wait for the results of the investigation before coming to a final conclusion.



Where have I said that there is a final "verdict"? Let us wait for the results first.

This hysteria will die down exactly the same as with RD.


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## lem34

Omar1984 said:


> If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck then is it is a ........



lies like an american-

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## pakdefender

uswrld said:


> Just wanted to add they have capability to even read time of watch worn by you but it was a TACTICAL MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!! Trust me they are just testing waters before a full assault and our leaderships knows that but have their foreign accounts inflated everytime



We can turn the screws on them in afghanistan and most likely this is what is about to happen. I mean I dont know if I should be saying this but emulite made in Pakistan has dispatched many of our enmies to ethernal damnation so we have ways and means to hit them.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Where have I said that there is a final "verdict"? Let us wait for the results first.



How can your posts on this incident be factual when the facts have not been determined in the form of an investigation (which you called for), & the results of that investigation haven't come out? When contradictory accounts coming out of Afghanistan, how can your posts be factual?


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## Musafar

Imran Khan said:


> common pak army we are not stupids its 15th time you are using same BS
> 
> LAST TIME it was under UAE



hahahahaha so so TRUE. Next it will under republic of congo.

Lying bastards - both army heads and policitians, all dogs chewing the same bone.

no doubt they will be living in UK next door to mushy in a few years time.

---------- Post added at 03:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 AM ----------




JanjaWeed said:


> Isn't this airbase owned by UAE? Pakistan may ask NATO to stop using their airspace.. but not the base!! correct me if i'm wrong..



if you believe rehman malik you believe pigs can fly too


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## lem34

uswrld said:


> Just wanted to add they have capability to even read time of watch worn by you but it was a TACTICAL MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!! Trust me they are just testing waters before a full assault and our leaderships knows that but have their foreign accounts inflated everytime



they will not launch a full assault. The odds are not in their favour. Havnt got enough soldiers in afganistan They like a country that has been weakend by sanctions etc. even with their fancy weapons they are cowards at heart and you think obama would get elected even if a few thousand body bags went back to america?

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## VCheng

President Camacho said:


> You won't have to do it Aryan, there's already a whole team in this forum that cheers, laughs, and dances at the news of NATO troops perishing in Afghanistan. Many actually claim to throng _mithai_ shops, so they can celebrate those deaths in the most joyous ways possible.
> 
> Now let's count how many Americans have shown any sort of satisfaction/happiness at the news of the death of these 28 Pak soldiers... what do you say?



Save your breath; this is the same type of misguided crowd that celebrated the murder of Salman Taseer too.

I am sure saner counsel will prevail at the correct levels, not the juvenile chest thumping here.


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## 888jamie888

Aryan_B said:


> I have been looking at american press and rather than saying sorry or showing regret all they are concerned about his how they are going to get supplies into afghanistan or what consequences this is going to have ie a few american deaths. they value white mans death more than one of ours they are animals


Dont bring race into this.


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## Agni5000

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan has some influence on insurgents so I'm guessing Pakistan will fight NATO indirectly while keeping a fake smile to their face that they give us.
> 
> Two can play this game.



Pakistan learned tricks from USA to fight with soviet union in afghanistan. Now they want to apply on USA. You know you can't apply on teacher. Thats problem.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Where have I said that there is a final "verdict"? Let us wait for the results first.
> 
> This hysteria will die down exactly the same as with RD.



Didn't you say Raymond Davis was a diplomat btw? 

Reverberating statements coming out of the US does not make your claims factual or accurate.

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> How can your posts on this incident be factual when the facts have not been determined in the form of an investigation (which you called for), & the results of that investigation haven't come out? When contradictory accounts coming out of Afghanistan, how can your posts be factual?



Where have I said anything other than to wait for the final investigation to be completed?


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## fd24

VCheng said:


> I have not disrespected any dead or martyred. Please do not slander.
> 
> 
> 
> Where have I said that there is a final "verdict"? Let us wait for the results first.
> 
> This hysteria will die down exactly the same as with RD.



by continuing to post things on here and trying to make it all about you - you are disrespecting the dead and martyred. You are in the habit of attemptin to make yourself the centre of attraction by posting poor quality obstructive posts. If you have any self respect or respect of the dead then do us a favour and stop posting stuff to make you the centr of attraction because you are now beginning to disrespect our dead soldiers. If you doubt me - read the posts and sense the annoyance and strength of opinion. Lets see if you have any self respect now.........................


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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Didn't you say Raymond Davis was a diplomat btw?
> 
> Reverberating statements coming out of the US does not make your claims factual or accurate.



The Pakistani FO still has not decided yet about RD's status.

My posts are correct.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Agni5000 said:


> Pakistan learned tricks from USA to fight with soviet union in afghanistan. Now they want to apply on USA. You know you can't apply on teacher. Thats problem.



We learned it on our own... and as per americans we r doin to same to them... I truely hope we do...it has been longe overdue!


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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> by continuing to post things on here and trying to make it all about you - you are disrespecting the dead and martyred. You are in the habit of attemptin to make yourself the centre of attraction by posting poor quality obstructive posts. If you have any self respect or respect of the dead then do us a favour and stop posting stuff to make you the centr of attraction because you are now beginning to disrespect our dead soldiers. If you doubt me - read the posts and sense the annoyance and strength of opinion. Lets see if you have any self respect now.........................




I shall continue to speak my mind.

May the martyred rest in peace.


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## Bhairava

VCheng, whatever you are , I admire your dogged determination and level-headed replies.

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## American Pakistani

*Coverage of Pakistani troops' funerals fuel anger as calls grow to cut US ties*

*Pakistan sees widespread anti-US protests on day images of 24 coffins containing those killed in Nato strike dominate media*
Saeed Shah in Karachi 
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 15.01 EST
Article history



Pakistanis burn Nato and US flags during a protest over the deadly airstrike on a checkpoint in which at least 24 soldiers died. Photograph: MK Chaudhry/EPA


*Images of the funerals of the young soldiers killed in the Nato attack on their checkpost filled television screens across Pakistan on Sunday, as a country already bursting with anti-Americanism found another reason to hate the US.*

Prayers were held at a military base in Peshawar, provincial capital of the north-west, in front of 24 coffins laid out on a lawn, each wrapped in a Pakistan flag. The head of the army, General Ashfaq Kayani, considered Pakistan's most powerful man, attended the funerals, as did the province's top civilian officials.

Each coffin was carried away by a guard of honour, to be buried in home towns and villages.

Casualties along the border with Afghanistan are usually from the paramilitary Frontier Corp, which recruits from Pakistan's tribal area, but these were regular soldiers from the heart of the country. Patriotic music, usually reserved for wartime propaganda, was played as wall-to-wall TV coverage repeatedly showed the funerals.

Kayani also visited the 13 injured, who were being treated at a military hospital in Peshawar, again with cameras trailing him.

Among the dead were two young young officers, Major Mujahid Ali and Captain Usman, whose life stories the media seized upon, helped by the military's public relations machine. Usman, 23, married last year and had a three-month-old daughter.

*Reporters arrived at the tiny home of Ali, in the village of Naudero in the southern province of Sindh, to find a family in mourning.

His elderly mother, clutching a picture of her recently engaged son, said: "I'm proud that my son has achieved martyrdom. I'm grateful to God for it."*

*The city of Lahore, in the east of the country, saw protesters chant anti-American slogans. There was a bigger demonstration outside the US consulate in the port city of Karachi.* The Lahore rally included members of Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the militant group blamed for the 2008 attacks on Mumbai in India.

*Thousands of people gathered outside the heavily fortified American consulate in Karachi, with angry cries of "Death to America". An outbreak of sectarian violence elsewhere in the city probably prevented more from joining the protest.*

In Mohmand, where the deadly strike on the checkpoint occurred, more than 1,000 tribal elders gathered in the district capital, demanding the Pakistan end its ties to the US.

*"This was just simple murder," said Rasheed Ahmed, the senator for Mohmand. "America is the big evil. We are just a small mouthful in front of America. He said Islamabad had "missed the opportunity" to cut relations with Washington after the killing of Osama bin Laden in a raid in the garrison town of Abbottabad in May and the freeing in March of Raymond Davis, a CIA contractor accused of killing two Pakistanis during a shootout in Lahore.*


"If we waste another opportunity, America will keep doing things like this," said Ahmed.

Rustam Shah, a former Pakistani ambassador to the Afghanistan, said the Pakistani military would now face pressure from within its own ranks to end co-operation with the US.

*"The military will have to cope with rising levels of anger within, which is very dangerous," he said.*

Public opinion in Pakistan largely blames terrorist violence in the country on the presence of the US-led coalition in Afghanistan, and Islamabad's decision to ally with Washington.

Imran Khan, the former international cricketer turned politician, is riding a wave of rising popularity, with a campaign based on breaking the alliance with the US. "It is time for our rulers to get out of America's war," he told a political rally in the Shujabad area of Punjab over the weekend.


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## W.11

bilalhaider said:


> Didn't you say Raymond Davis was a diplomat btw?
> 
> Reverberating statements coming out of the US does not make your claims factual or accurate.


 
replying vcheng is like giving bone to a dog

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> I shall continue to speak my mind.
> 
> May the martyred rest in peace.


 
DO NOT TAKE THE NAME OF OUR MARTYRS WITH THT TONGUE OF YOURS!

YOU SLAVE!

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> I have not disrespected any dead or martyred. Please do not slander.
> 
> .



So when we are in grief what exactly did you mean when you said in post 1394 i think:

_Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.

Fact.

Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality. _

You are a liar and a hypocrite and for once its not about you. Do you think i give a damn that you think you have been slandered when we have 28 young jawans who have been murdered in their sleep. Is this what you call respect???

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## Agni5000

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> We learned it on our own... and as per americans we r doin to same to them... I truely hope we do...it has been longe overdue!



Yeah, at that time USA was pumping money, trainer and hardware. Now who?


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> I shall continue to speak my mind.
> 
> May the martyred rest in peace.



Now we need a dedicated Vcheng bashing thread....


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## lem34

KarachiPunk said:


> replying vcheng is like giving bone to a dog



please dont insult dogs


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## Mabs

Just thinking out loud here but could this strike be the result of the meeing held between Gen Kayani and Gen Allen the day before ? Could it be possible that Gen Allen asked Gen Kayani to take action against the Haqqani network, to which the latter didn't agree to ? Could it be possible that Gen Allen went back and told his commanders that " to hell with Kayani," we'll do it our way now ? Maybe Gen Allen was under the assumption that If we can go deep into Pakistan's territory to capture OBL, what's the harm in going in a couple of miles to finish the job. Maybe the audacious General took a gamble and took 'going the extra mile' quite literally.


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## 888jamie888

It's just like in Lord of the Flies when, Piggy the rational one is hated and eventually...killed. Sorry VCheng.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> AM: To say that _"There are only two possibilities 'complete incompetence or collusion'"_ is rather premature at the moment.


Please explain to me a third possibility then, given the points I have argued.

BTW, the accounts attributed to Afghan soldiers suggest 'gunfire', not mortars, rockets or artillery (at least at the moment) which further stretches the credulity of the excuses being trotted out by the Afghans and NATO, given the location of the Pakistani posts and the ISAF response.

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## lem34

safriz said:


> Now we need a dedicated Vcheng bashing thread....




why why we have 28 deaths of young jawans and this self centered cheng guy wants attention look at me I tell the truth, i am clever, i been to school, im better than you lot etc

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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> DO NOT TAKE THE NAME OF OUR MARTYRS WITH THT TONGUE OF YOURS!



My tongue is mine to use, as is yours for you.



Aryan_B said:


> So when we are in grief what exactly did you mean when you said in post 1394 i think:
> 
> _Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.
> 
> Fact.
> 
> Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality. _
> 
> You are a liar and a hypocrite and for once its not about you. Do you think i give a damn that you think you have been slandered when we have 28 young jawans who have been murdered in their sleep. Is this what you call respect???



That soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY is a FACT.


Your continued hysterics and wailing like little girls dishonors them more than my calm, respectful words ever will.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> My tongue is mine to use, as is yours for you.
> 
> 
> 
> That soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY is a FACT.
> 
> 
> Your continued hysterics and wailing like little girls dishonors them more than my calm, respectful words ever will.



Fear the GOD and the hatred of a PATRIOT... And pray to THE ALMIGHTY YOU NEVER FACE ONE!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

American Eagle said:


> I agree with all who say wait for NATO/ISAF documented facts before trying to discuss the undiscussable.


Again, please explain to me how something other than 'complete incompetence or collusion' would be applicable, given the arguments and facts known so far.

And, again, NATO/ISAF documented 'facts' are not from some infallible heavenly deity - they are at best the version of events the accused will offer to explain his/her crime.

The self-defence argument has been debunked in several arguments.


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## American Pakistani

*Protesters rage at Nato*
Reuters | 28 November, 2011 00:16


Tyres left burnt by angry protesters against target killing in Karachi.
Image by: ATHAR HUSSAIN / REUTERS

Thousands gathered outside the US consulate in Karachi yesterday to protest against a Nato cross-border air attack that killed 28 Pakistani troops.

A Reuters reporter said the angry crowd shouted "Down with America".

A man climbed up the wall surrounding the consulate and attached a Pakistani flag to barbed wire.

Nato helicopters and fighter jets based in Afghanistan attacked two Pakistan military outposts on Saturday, killing the soldiers in what Pakistan said was "an unprovoked assault".

A Western official and a senior Afghan security officer said yesterday that Nato and Afghan forces came under fire from across the border with Pakistan before the Nato aircraft attacked.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Please explain to me a third possibility then, given the points I have argued.
> 
> BTW, the accounts attributed to Afghan soldiers suggest 'gunfire', not mortars, rockets or artillery (at least at the moment) which further stretches the credulity of the excuses being trotted out by the Afghans and NATO, given the location of the Pakistani posts and the ISAF response.



One thing that specifically comes to mind is a possible role played by agents of another country, that fired on NATO troops in a manner designed to make the Pakistani troops a target. The forensic evidence and analysis will take a while given the terrain.


----------



## pakdefender

American Pakistani said:


> *Coverage of Pakistani troops' funerals fuel anger as calls grow to cut US ties*
> 
> *Pakistan sees widespread anti-US protests on day images of 24 coffins containing those killed in Nato strike dominate media*
> Saeed Shah in Karachi
> guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 15.01 EST
> Article history
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistanis burn Nato and US flags during a protest over the deadly airstrike on a checkpoint in which at least 24 soldiers died. Photograph: MK Chaudhry/EPA
> 
> 
> *Images of the funerals of the young soldiers killed in the Nato attack on their checkpost filled television screens across Pakistan on Sunday, as a country already bursting with anti-Americanism found another reason to hate the US.*
> 
> Prayers were held at a military base in Peshawar, provincial capital of the north-west, in front of 24 coffins laid out on a lawn, each wrapped in a Pakistan flag. The head of the army, General Ashfaq Kayani, considered Pakistan's most powerful man, attended the funerals, as did the province's top civilian officials.
> 
> Each coffin was carried away by a guard of honour, to be buried in home towns and villages.
> 
> Casualties along the border with Afghanistan are usually from the paramilitary Frontier Corp, which recruits from Pakistan's tribal area, but these were regular soldiers from the heart of the country. Patriotic music, usually reserved for wartime propaganda, was played as wall-to-wall TV coverage repeatedly showed the funerals.
> 
> Kayani also visited the 13 injured, who were being treated at a military hospital in Peshawar, again with cameras trailing him.
> 
> Among the dead were two young young officers, Major Mujahid Ali and Captain Usman, whose life stories the media seized upon, helped by the military's public relations machine. Usman, 23, married last year and had a three-month-old daughter.
> 
> *Reporters arrived at the tiny home of Ali, in the village of Naudero in the southern province of Sindh, to find a family in mourning.
> 
> His elderly mother, clutching a picture of her recently engaged son, said: "I'm proud that my son has achieved martyrdom. I'm grateful to God for it."*
> 
> *The city of Lahore, in the east of the country, saw protesters chant anti-American slogans. There was a bigger demonstration outside the US consulate in the port city of Karachi.* The Lahore rally included members of Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the militant group blamed for the 2008 attacks on Mumbai in India.
> 
> *Thousands of people gathered outside the heavily fortified American consulate in Karachi, with angry cries of "Death to America". An outbreak of sectarian violence elsewhere in the city probably prevented more from joining the protest.*
> 
> In Mohmand, where the deadly strike on the checkpoint occurred, more than 1,000 tribal elders gathered in the district capital, demanding the Pakistan end its ties to the US.
> 
> *"This was just simple murder," said Rasheed Ahmed, the senator for Mohmand. "America is the big evil. We are just a small mouthful in front of America. He said Islamabad had "missed the opportunity" to cut relations with Washington after the killing of Osama bin Laden in a raid in the garrison town of Abbottabad in May and the freeing in March of Raymond Davis, a CIA contractor accused of killing two Pakistanis during a shootout in Lahore.*
> 
> 
> "If we waste another opportunity, America will keep doing things like this," said Ahmed.
> 
> Rustam Shah, a former Pakistani ambassador to the Afghanistan, said the Pakistani military would now face pressure from within its own ranks to end co-operation with the US.
> 
> *"The military will have to cope with rising levels of anger within, which is very dangerous," he said.*
> 
> Public opinion in Pakistan largely blames terrorist violence in the country on the presence of the US-led coalition in Afghanistan, and Islamabad's decision to ally with Washington.
> 
> Imran Khan, the former international cricketer turned politician, is riding a wave of rising popularity, with a campaign based on breaking the alliance with the US. "It is time for our rulers to get out of America's war," he told a political rally in the Shujabad area of Punjab over the weekend.



The military top brass will have to act , I've read anonymous letters that young officers wrote to senoir officers ( this is an unspoken way of conveying griviences in the Army ) during the Mushaarf era which were at that time so full of rage, I can only image the rage that will be brewing in the ranks after this act , it was already boiling over after Abbotabad so the top brass , how ever unwiling , will have to follow though on retribution , else they risk serious unreset within the ranks


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## notorious_eagle

Aryan_B said:


> why why we have 28 deaths of young jawans and this self centered cheng guy wants attention look at me I tell the truth, i am clever, i been to school, im better than you lot etc



Dude just drop it. I believe we can contribute more positively if we have a rationale argument regarding the events that took place instead of personally bashing a member. VCheng is a smart fellow and lets leave it at that. Lets not derail this topic and get back to the issue on hand

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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Fear the GOD and the hatred of a PATRIOT... And pray to THE ALMIGHTY YOU NEVER FACE ONE!



My matters are between Allah and me, and I fear no man on Earth. Do what you will.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> My matters are between Allah and me, and I fear no man on Earth. Do what you will.



You fear ur master AMERICA n i* bet *u would fear a patriot when you come face to face with one!

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## American Pakistani

Afghanistan-bound trucks carrying supplies for NATO forces are parked as authorities closed the border at Torkham, in Pakistan, Sunday, Nov 27, 2011. (AP Photo/Qazi Rauf)

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## VCheng

notorious_eagle said:


> Dude just drop it. I believe we can contribute more positively if we have a rationale argument regarding the events that took place instead of personally bashing a member. VCheng is a smart fellow and lets leave it at that. Lets not derail this topic and get back to the issue on hand



Are there any details of post-incident evidence gathering in and around the Pakistani site?


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## American Pakistani

People offer funeral prayers of Saturday's NATO attack victims in Peshawar, Pakistan on Sunday, Nov 27, 2011. 
(Credit: AP Photo)


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Where have I said anything other than to wait for the final investigation to be completed?



Can you explain what you meant by this post on this thread:



VCheng said:


> Pakistan will increasingly find itself deeper and deeper in a quagmire of its own making on many fronts.



Can you explain to me how this incident was Pakistan's own making?

I think the objection people have on this forum is, you admit that you are not speaking facts pertaining to this incident, yet you post off-topic posts based on conjecture on this thread that have nothing to do with this incident.

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## VCheng

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> You fear ur master AMERICA n i* bet *u would fear a patriot when you come face to face with one!



You are correct!

I fear this patriot for sure!


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## Mabs

VCheng said:


> The Pakistani FO still has not decided yet about RD's status.
> 
> My posts are correct.



Actually, the fact that he was only let go after paying the blood money proves that he indeed was not a diplomat and did not enjoy any such privileges. Let's not flog a dead horse here.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

VCheng said:


> You are correct!
> 
> I fear this patriot for sure!



Again worshipping ur masters creation! Huh

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## fd24

VCheng said:


> My matters are between Allah and me, and I fear no man on Earth. Do what you will.



Please Cheng i ask you to show some dignity and either post regarding the lost souls or the events relating to this thread. Stop talking about you as this is and will be nothing about you. You are so self centred and are decimating the respect we are trying to show the lost ones. Stop posting cr*p about you. We really dont care what you think about yourself. I believe you are attention seeking and are trying to ride the wave of opinions we have for the martyred. A selfish arrogant low life attitude to have.

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## Omar1984

American Pakistani said:


> Afghanistan-bound trucks carrying supplies for NATO forces are parked as authorities closed the border at Torkham, in Pakistan, Sunday, Nov 27, 2011. (AP Photo/Qazi Rauf)



Pakistan should take all the supplies. It probably has some useful military supplies. I remember reading years ago locals in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa looted a NATO truck and sold NATO gun machines and night-vision goggles, uniform, etc in their local shops..

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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> Actually, the fact that he was only let go after paying the blood money proves that he indeed was not a diplomat and did not enjoy any such privileges. Let's not flog a dead horse here.



My statement is still correct in that the there was no official determination of his status. 

And I do agree with you not to derail this thread.

---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Again worshipping ur masters creation! Huh



Well, it does take a lot of ingenuity and hard work to create things like this, rather than trying to buy or beg for them. 



superkaif said:


> Please Cheng i ask you to show some dignity and either post regarding the lost souls or the events relating to this thread. Stop talking about you as this is and will be nothing about you. You are so self centred and are decimating the respect we are trying to show the lost ones. Stop posting cr*p about you. We really dont care what you think about yourself. I believe you are attention seeking and are trying to ride the wave of opinions we have for the martyred. A selfish arrogant low life attitude to have.



Please go back and look at your posts and mine and see which ones are the dignified ones. I rest my case.

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## American Pakistani

*Pakistan buries troops as rage spreads*

* Thousands of enraged Pakistanis take to streets across country, burning an effigy of Obama and setting fire to US, NATO flags 

* Kayani attends troops&#8217; funeral prayer in Peshawar

PESHAWAR: Pakistan on Sunday buried 24 troops killed in a NATO cross-border air attack that has pushed a crisis in relations between the United States and an ally it needs to fight militancy towards rupture. 

Television stations showed the coffins of the soldiers draped in national flags in a prayer ceremony at the Corp Headquarters in Peshawar attended by Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Kayani. Pakistan shut down NATO supply routes into Afghanistan &#8211; used for sending in nearly half of the alliance&#8217;s land shipments &#8211; in retaliation for the worst such attack since Islamabad uneasily allied itself with Washington following the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States. 

About 500 members of Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) staged a protest in Mohmand tribal area, where the NATO attack took place. &#8220;Down with America&#8221; and &#8220;Jihad is The Only Answer to America&#8221;, they yelled. In Karachi, the port city used by the US to ship supplies to troops fighting in Afghanistan, thousands gathered outside the US consulate. They shouted: &#8220;down with America, stay away Americans, Pakistan is ours, we stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our army&#8221;, while riot police were deployed near the consulate. Outside the press club in Karachi, dozens of political activists burnt an effigy of President Obama.

In the central city of Multan, more than 300 activists loyal to the former prime minister Nawaz Sharif, as well as local traders took to the streets, burning US and NATO flags. They carried placards and banners, and shouted: &#8220;down with America,&#8221; &#8220;down with NATO,&#8221; &#8220;Yankees go back&#8221;, &#8220;vacate Afghanistan and Pakistan&#8221; and &#8220;stop drone attacks&#8221;. Speaking at the rally, opposition lawmaker Javed Hashmi demanded that the government end its alliance in the US-led &#8220;war on terror&#8221;.

In Islamabad, at least 200 activists of the JI held a rally. &#8220;We strongly condemn the attack and the killing of our soldiers,&#8221; local JI chief Mian Aslam told the rally, as protesters chanted &#8220;Pakistan is America&#8217;s graveyard.&#8221;

In Karachi, dozens of truck drivers who should have been transporting supplies to Afghanistan were idle. Taj Malli braves the threat of Taliban attacks to deliver supplies to Afghanistan so that he can support his children. But he thinks it is time to block the route permanently in protest. &#8220;Pakistan is more important than money. The government must stop all supplies to NATO so that they realise the importance of Pakistan,&#8221; he said. 

Pakistan is reviewing whether it will go ahead with plans to attend a major international conference in Bonn next month on the future of Afghanistan in light of the NATO attack. Around 40 troops were stationed at the outposts at the time of the attack, military sources said. &#8220;They without any reasons attacked on our post and killed soldiers asleep,&#8221; said a senior Pakistani officer. agencies


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Are there any details of post-incident evidence gathering in and around the Pakistani site?



If you had been reading the thread instead of worrying about your own status you would have seen the article in the brit press in telegraph where they had interviewed the survivors who said it was an unprovoked attack, but then of course you wont belive it becuase its from a pakistani soldier


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## pakdefender

American Pakistani said:


> Afghanistan-bound trucks carrying supplies for NATO forces are parked as authorities closed the border at Torkham, in Pakistan, Sunday, Nov 27, 2011. (AP Photo/Qazi Rauf)



The supplies have been shut down via Torkham as well as through Chaman , ab goray ki phatay gi jub dubbay ka doodh, mineral water bottles, MREs , burger patties , fuel aur ganday magzine milany bund huon gay ... bloody bastards need to be taught a good lesson!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The following article speaks to what I believe is a dishonest and destructive argument of 'accept ground realities' on your part VC:

*Pakistan has had enough*​
_The assumption that it has no choice but to obey America may turn out to be a dire strategic error_

Simon Tisdall
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 15.35 EST
Article history

Protesters in Karachi burn an effigy representing America. Photograph: Rehan Khan/EPA
Readers of Dawn newspaper, commenting online, were in no doubt how the Pakistani government should respond to Saturday's killing by US forces of 24 soldiers on Pakistan's side of the Afghan border. "Pakistan should acquire anti-aircraft defence systems ... so that in the future Pakistan can give Nato forces a proper reply," said Ali. "This is outrageous," wrote another reader, Zia Khan. "We should cut off all ties with the US. As long as we are getting US [anti-terror] aid ... Pakistan will be attacked in such a manner. They can never be trusted." Another, Obaid, turned his wrath on the Pakistani authorities: "Our self-centred establishment with their fickle loyalties can't even demand that the killers be tried in a neutral court ... What is the ability of our armed forces? If they can't repel or intercept an attack of this intensity, then what's their purpose? This is not a time to get mad. It's time to get even."

The fury of these respondents comes as no surprise, but Washington should treat it with deadly seriousness all the same, for this latest outrage is another fateful signpost on the road to a potential security and geostrategic disaster that may ultimately make Afghanistan look like a sideshow.

The 10-year-old Afghan war, neither wholly won nor lost, is slowly drawing to a close  or so Washington postulates. But what has not stopped is the linked, escalating destabilisation of the infinitely more important, more populous, and nuclear-armed Pakistan. If Washington does not quickly learn to tread more carefully, it may find the first US-Pakistan war is beginning just as the fourth Afghan war supposedly ends.

Anti-American feeling in Pakistan is becoming institutionalised at the higher levels of government, while opposition figures such as Imran Khan see their popularity rise on the back of diatribes aimed at Washington. Pakistan's western-educated, secular political elite is under brutal attack from Islamist militants who revile them as Washington's stooges. The knock-kneed government is mocked and despised for failing to stand up to its infidel paymasters even as Pakistan's own "war on terror" death toll rises into the tens of thousands.

Since 2001, when the Bush administration bluntly told Islamabad it must take sides, be either "for us or agin us" in the newly declared "war on terror", Pakistan has struggled under a plethora of imperious American demands, démarches and impositions that are at once politically indefensible and contrary to the perceived national interest.

The last year has been another humiliating one at the hands of the country's principal ally. Pakistanis have looked on impotently as US special forces flouted its sovereignty and killed Osama bin Laden under the army's nose; as the US stepped up drone terror attacks in Pakistani territory despite repeated protests; and as people-pleasing US senators and Republican presidential candidates have taken to picking on Pakistan and its aid bill in uninformed foreign policy rants.

Hillary Clinton and the Pentagon top brass have responded to Saturday's killing with the usual expressions of regret and of determination to "investigate", without formally admitting responsibility. Their pronouncements are worthless, transparently so.

The belief that weak, impoverished, divided Pakistan has no alternative but to slavishly obey its master's voice could turn out to be one of the seminal strategic miscalculations of the 21st century. Alternative alliances with China or Russia aside, Muslim Pakistan, if bullied and scorned for long enough by its western mentors, could yet morph through external trauma and internal collapse into quite a different animal. The future paradigm here is not another well-trained Indonesia or Malaysia. It is the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Pakistan has had enough | Simon Tisdall | Comment is free | The Guardian

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> The Pakistani FO still has not decided yet about RD's status.
> 
> My posts are correct.



You sure about that?

Foreign Office concludes Davis is not a diplomat

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Please go back and look at your posts and mine and see which ones are the dignified ones. I rest my case.


 
Yea your posts are not dignified. explain how is this dignified when we are in mourning:


_Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.

Fact.

Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality_

You dont say this to americans do you when their soldiers die cos they would lynch you and chase you out of america

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## Safriz

Aryan_B said:


> why why we have 28 deaths of young jawans and this self centered cheng guy wants attention look at me I tell the truth, i am clever, i been to school, im better than you lot etc



Let go,not the right time to fight among ourselves..
There is no justification for killing 28 soldiers inside their territory while on duty at a well known well marked military post..
But is somebody finds this justified......let them gloat.


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## 888jamie888

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Again worshipping ur masters creation! Huh


Your a nut mate.


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## Agni5000

Only military supplies to NATO in Afghanistan stopped or entire boarder is closed?


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## 888jamie888

pakdefender said:


> I think we should poison their supplies and send them on , that'll serve them right .. they can crap themselves to death


I do hope not every Pakistani is like you.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Where have I said anything other than to wait for the final investigation to be completed?



So you admit your posts are not based on facts concerning this incident? Why are you posting off-topic posts unrelated to the incident on this thread then?


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## pakdefender

Agni5000 said:


> Only military supplies to NATO in Afghanistan stopped or entire boarder is closed?



Their life line is on hold , and as much spin as you bhratis want to put , more than 50% of their supplies ( source is Bruce Riedel's latest article ) goes through Pakistan. 

These rats will be made to pay for this!


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## Bhairava

Aryan_B said:


> If you had been reading the thread instead of worrying about your own status you would have seen the article in the brit press in telegraph where they had interviewed the survivors who said it was an unprovoked attack, but then of course you wont belive it becuase its from a pakistani soldier



I don't understand why it was an unprovoked fire ? Was NATO feeling itchy on Thanksgiving weekend and wanted to pass time by firing some ammo on 'sleeping' Pakistanis ? 

They know this is a grave aggravation, and yet after the cost-benefit analysis went ahead with the attack. Common sense dictates that there is more to this than just meets the eye or what is currently available through media.

---------- Post added at 04:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 AM ----------




pakdefender said:


> Their life line is on hold , and as much spin as you bhratis want to put , more than 50% of their supplies ( source is Bruce Riedel's latest article ) goes through Pakistan.
> 
> These rats will be made to pay for this!



Its not 50% for God's sake. It's 35% as mentioned in the latest Senate hearing. But yeah, even 35% is not a negligible figure & if the blockade is permanent then it will hurt NATO


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## 53fd

pakdefender said:


> Their life line is on hold , and as much spin as you bhratis want to put , more than 50% of their supplies ( source is Bruce Riedel's latest article ) goes through Pakistan.
> 
> These rats will be made to pay for this!



According to the Long War Journal quoted regularly by Indians against Pakistan (regarded as Gospel Truth & indisputable proof) on this forum, 70% of the supplies into Afghanistan go through Pakistan:



> Shamsi is used as both a NATO logistics base and as a key node in the CIA's Predator and Reaper drone campaign in North and South Waziristan, *while an estimated 70 percent of NATO's supplies pass through Pakistan.*



Pakistan orders closure of key US airbase after ISAF troops conduct cross-border attack - The Long War Journal

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## lem34

safriz said:


> Let go,not the right time to fight among ourselves..
> There is no justification for killing 28 soldiers inside their territory while on duty at a well known well marked military post..
> But is somebody finds this justified......let them gloat.



he my friend is not one of us. He has beeen given the title opinionator. I think there should be a title like solomon 3 for him cos solomon asks him for help when he gets attacked or quisling title would be more appropriete any way I think from now on i will ignore this self centered person


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## lem34

Bhairava said:


> I don't understand why it was an unprovoked fire ? Was NATO feeling itchy on Thanksgiving weekend and wanted to pass time by firing some ammo on 'sleeping' Pakistanis ?
> 
> They know this is a grave aggravation, and yet after the cost-benefit analysis went ahead with the attack. Common sense dictates that there is more to this than just meets the eye or what is currently available through media.




why dont you go through this thread I have already stated:

Re: NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack 



After the initial upset and emotional feelings I have now had time to think about what has happened here. I believe these actions were delibarate. This is the latest outrage in a well orchestrated sequence of events. The last 6 to 12 months pakistan and in particular PA and ISI have been demonised in the western anti Pakistan press around the world. There has been the usual chorus of excuses from a few treacherous Pakistanis who want Pakistan to have no army and to live at the mercy of Indian and American interests who try to excuse these unjustified acts against our nation. 

Today even China and Russia would be reluctant to fight a war with america. Therefore Americans know that it is unlikely that Pakistan will fight them openly.

Yes pakistan could give a bloody nose to America no doubt but Americans could do unprecedented damage to our people and our country. 

These acts by America against Pakistan from the Davies affair to this recent outrage are designed to destabilise Pakistan its army and ISI. Logic being that we Pakistanis will blame PA for being powerless. These actions are designed to force pakistan into backing their puppet regime of Karzai in Afghanistan.

Americans have not been able to achieve what they want in Afghanistan. They are leaving the neighbourhood however they still want influence in our neighbourhood. They intend to do this by using India as a proxy and that they will leave a few troops in Afghanistan and try containing china. They need Pakistan to bend to their will and support their nefarious designs. Simply speaking Pak establishment and I don't mean Zaradari but real powerbrokers like Kayani will not accept this without a pound of Indian flesh in kashmir. America wants Pakistan to be subjugated to India so India can concentrate on the main task and that is contain China. 

So my brothers we are in a delicate environment and we must be firm but not give Americans any excuses to take greater action. We need to be very meusured in our response and we need to move closer and coordinate our actions with China and to a lesser extent Russia and Iran with who our interests converge.

I do not see any end to these acts by america in the short term and we need to be patient and play our cards close to our chest. We must be united and supportive of our armed forces and other agencies.

Oh God please give janath to those 28 shaeeds that have been killed by the enemies of pakistan and give their families patience RIP


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## 888jamie888

Aryan_B said:


> why dont you go through this thread I have already stated:
> 
> Re: NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack
> 
> 
> 
> After the initial upset and emotional feelings I have now had time to think about what has happened here. I believe these actions were delibarate. This is the latest outrage in a well orchestrated sequence of events. The last 6 to 12 months pakistan and in particular PA and ISI have been demonised in the western anti Pakistan press around the world. There has been the usual chorus of excuses from a few treacherous Pakistanis who want Pakistan to have no army and to live at the mercy of Indian and American interests who try to excuse these unjustified acts against our nation.
> 
> Today even China and Russia would be reluctant to fight a war with america. Therefore Americans know that it is unlikely that Pakistan will fight them openly.
> 
> Yes pakistan could give a bloody nose to America no doubt but Americans could do unprecedented damage to our people and our country.
> 
> These acts by America against Pakistan from the Davies affair to this recent outrage are designed to destabilise Pakistan its army and ISI. Logic being that we Pakistanis will blame PA for being powerless. These actions are designed to force pakistan into backing their puppet regime of Karzai in Afghanistan.
> 
> Americans have not been able to achieve what they want in Afghanistan. They are leaving the neighbourhood however they still want influence in our neighbourhood. They intend to do this by using India as a proxy and that they will leave a few troops in Afghanistan and try containing china. They need Pakistan to bend to their will and support their nefarious designs. Simply speaking Pak establishment and I don't mean Zaradari but real powerbrokers like Kayani will not accept this without a pound of Indian flesh in kashmir. America wants Pakistan to be subjugated to India so India can concentrate on the main task and that is contain China.
> 
> So my brothers we are in a delicate environment and we must be firm but not give Americans any excuses to take greater action. We need to be very meusured in our response and we need to move closer and coordinate our actions with China and to a lesser extent Russia and Iran with who our interests converge.
> 
> I do not see any end to these acts by america in the short term and we need to be patient and play our cards close to our chest. We must be united and supportive of our armed forces and other agencies.
> 
> Oh God please give janath to those 28 shaeeds that have been killed by the enemies of pakistan and give their families patience RIP


Well that's merely your opinion.


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## Bhairava

Aryan_B said:


> why dont you go through this thread I have already stated:
> 
> Re: NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack
> 
> .....................



Friend this can be just one possiblity, not _the only_ possiblity.

As I said there is more to this than meets the eye and we should wait for the final report to come out before drawing conclusions on our own.

The meek condemnations from ISPR, the for-the-sake regrets from NATO just confirm my hunch. Let's wait.


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## Safriz

The army cheif is in commando uniform...instead of his normal Khaki....
This means the decleration of emergency among army ranks.


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## Mabs

888jamie888 said:


> I do hope not every Pakistani is like you.



Jamie, you need to understand that there's a lot of anger in the air right now and the people have just about had it with all that the US has been doing. Mind you that this anger is directed towards the policies of the GoUSA and not the people. People commit suicide when they see no way out, and don't care for their life or anyone else's. Don't push a whole nation where it does not care about anything but punching back because it's been pushed around for far too long, and trust me,we are not far from it.


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## Safriz

888jamie888 said:


> Well that's merely your opinion.


so what exactly are you trying to say?


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## 888jamie888

safriz said:


> so what exactly are you trying to say?


That we know little for sure at the moment. I got the impression he was trying to portray it as fact.

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## 53fd

Agni5000 said:


> Everyday cooked food from pakistan goes to Nato soldier? It will not impact much on them. Bit expensive.
> 
> *Impact will be more on pakistan. Pakistan will loose the money earns for transportation.*



What about the billions of $ Pakistan has lost in infrastructure damage with these trucks operating?

When the Pakistani people don't think this will not impact Pakistan, we surely know more about our country that you do. We know how much of this money benefits Pakistan & the people of Pakistan. So please, don't talk about things you know very little about.

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## Agni5000

safriz said:


> The army cheif is in commando uniform...instead of his normal Khaki....
> This means the decleration of emergency among army ranks.



Is true? dress makes difference?

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## pakdefender

Bhairava said:


> I don't understand why it was an unprovoked fire ? Was NATO feeling itchy on Thanksgiving weekend and wanted to pass time by firing some ammo on 'sleeping' Pakistanis ?
> 
> They know this is a grave aggravation, and yet after the cost-benefit analysis went ahead with the attack. Common sense dictates that there is more to this than just meets the eye or what is currently available through media.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Its not 50% for God's sake. It's 35% as mentioned in the latest Senate hearing. But yeah, even 35% is not a negligible figure & if the blockade is permanent then it will hurt NATO



Bruce Riedel's words , not mine



> Now it is interfering with NATO's supply line from Karachi.* About half our supplies come through there.* The Pakistani Army controls both our logistics and the Taliban's. It's a good place to be in war. The Army knows it. Now it also has threatened (again) to shut down a drone base.



America

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## Safriz

Agni5000 said:


> Is true? dress makes difference?



it does..
when the army cheif attends meetings in SSG uniform instead of normal khaki...it means emergency has been declared.


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## pakdefender

Agni5000 said:


> Everyday cooked food from pakistan goes to Nato soldier? It will not impact much on them. Bit expensive.
> 
> Impact will be more on pakistan. Pakistan will loose the money earns for transportation.



Its not just food , its fuel , humvees and armoured vehicles and just about any thing they need to do their business in afghanistan.

The impact can only be positive as far as Pakistan is concerned


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## Agni5000

bilalhaider said:


> What about the billions of $ Pakistan has lost in infrastructure damage with the operations of these trucks?
> 
> When the Pakistani people don't think this will not impact Pakistan, we surely know more about our country that you do. We know how much of this money benefits Pakistan & the people of Pakistan. So please, don't speak about things you know little about.



If you use infra, machinery or factory, wear and tear is common. Thats why you are paid for the service, If price is not enough, you should raise the price.


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## 53fd

Agni5000 said:


> If you use infra, machinery or factory, wear and tear is common. Thats why you are paid for the service, If price is not enough, you should raise the price.



You were talking about how Pakistan will be impacted, losing the money earns for transportation. Pakistan will benefit (lesser losses) if the supply routes are closed, & these trucks don't operate.


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## Bhairava

pakdefender said:


> Bruce Riedel's words , not mine



The direct recorded minutes of the Senate hearing,



> *Senator MCCAIN.* Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Fraser, to follow up on Chairman Levin&#8217;s question about what would happen if Pakistan cut off its supply routes, what percent of our logistics now goes through Pakistan?
> 
> *General FRASER*. Sir, it is my understanding that *approximately 35 percent moves through the ground,* and the other is moving through the Northern Distribution Network, coupled with also the lift as we bring in supplies by air.



Source hearing at Senate Armed Services Committee http://armed-services.senate.gov/Tra... 7-21-11.pdf


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## Irfan Baloch

Aryan_B said:


> Yea your posts are not dignified. explain how is this dignified when we are in mourning:
> 
> 
> _Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.
> 
> Fact.
> 
> Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality_
> 
> You dont say this to americans do you when their soldiers die cos they would lynch you and chase you out of america




will everyone please stay on topic if there is anything to add? and stop personal fighting?
every emotional post that is full of rage and insults is actually giving trolls an opening to make more fun and put salt on you.

so this must stop. I also disagree with few thins V Cheng says but he is very pedantic and I dont see that he tries to hide that but having said that he is keeping the discussion civil.

In the respect of the dead I request that the focus should move from anti-V Cheng posts to the actual incident and make your final posts as for few pages all I see is off topic rant and trolling. I have very good answer for the trolls but I dont want to feed them. They are not interested inf acts, they are deliberately talking out of their behinds so that they can get an angry reaction. Ignore them and report them and never ever quote them. They will die out eventually. 

Re NATO response,Gen Jacob has expressed his grief enough times and he is calling the Pakistani soldiers as his fellow soldier comrades this is something only a soldier to soldier can understand for all its worth the NATO is admitting its a tragedy and is stressing on patience. He says time and speed is not important but it needs to be seen that who did what and when that went wrong and led to this tragedy. He even said that there is a chance that the Taliban played the NATO by leading them near the posts so that the resulting attack would hurt their common enemy and it appears that Taliban have done that before too. I have posted his interview with Sana Bucha about 20 or 30 odd pages ago but the high tides of trolling and flaming buried it under the pages. 

If NATO had said that their attack was justified and they will carry out more attacks then we all would have had the right to curse them and demand a full scale war preparation. 

Always remember that its the trolls and Taliban who are finding this incident funny and wishing it to happen again so dont make it worse by giving these guys more chance to laugh.

I hope everyone understands what I am saying.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> You were talking about how Pakistan will be impacted, losing the money earns for transportation. Pakistan will benefit (lesser losses) if the supply routes are closed, & these trucks don't operate.



And in turn Pakistan loses the transit leverage it has over NATO.

@Irfan - Great points.


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## pakdefender

Bhairava said:


> The direct recorded minutes of the Senate hearing,
> 
> 
> 
> Source hearing at Senate Armed Services Committee http://armed-services.senate.gov/Tra... 7-21-11.pdf



When the senetors ask question the comanders make fancy power point slides showing complicated routes to pacify the senators , the reality on ground is that NATO/US commanders are heavily reliant on routes going through Pakistan

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## Mabs

Agni5000 said:


> If you use infra, machinery or factory, wear and tear is common. Thats why you are paid for the service, If price is not enough, you should raise the price.



That is not the topic but i'll answer your query so you may calm down. NATO supplies are not taxed. That is why many people try to bring in stuff labelled as NATO supplies to avoid all the taxes and then sell/smuggle the merchandise back in PAK instead of taking it to the border.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> And in turn Pakistan loses the transit leverage it has over NATO.



Pakistan doesn't need any transit leverage. Pakistan has a lot more influence & stake over the events in Afghanistan than the transit route. The transit route is a negative for Pakistan.

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## Irfan Baloch

safriz said:


> The army cheif is in commando uniform...instead of his normal Khaki....
> This means the decleration of emergency among army ranks.



the news reporters and people have no clue what they are talking about.
its army's new uniform and secondly he has not served in SSG.

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## Bhairava

pakdefender said:


> When the senetors ask question the comanders make fancy power point slides showing complicated routes to pacify the senators , the reality on ground is that NATO/US commanders are heavily reliant on routes going through Pakistan



Now if you don't want to believe what actually transpired between the Gen and Senators in a Senate hearing and continue to insist on your anonymous sources, well its upto you.

Let me just say Senate hearings are not your average Lab-viva sessions where you can get away with bluffing your Professor. They are on a different level altogether.

Anyway that is not relevant as with each passing blockade drama , NATO is reducing the quantum that passes through Pakistan and this will be no different.


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## Hulk

bilalhaider said:


> *What about the billions of $ Pakistan has lost in infrastructure damage with these trucks operating?*When the Pakistani people don't think this will not impact Pakistan, we surely know more about our country that you do. We know how much of this money benefits Pakistan & the people of Pakistan. So please, don't talk about things you know very little about.



Few questions on the bold part.
1) How many billions of dollars of damage?
2) Is the road is damaged or reapired now?
3) If repaired, where did you got the money to repair.

The figures should match when you list billions, my take is that figure is exhagratted.


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## Irfan Baloch

Agni5000 said:


> Is true? dress makes difference?



rest easy and calm down. 
no its not true, its just our new camo uniform. and no it doesnt make any difference.
he saying something based on a news reporter on a TV channel who dont have a clue what they are talking about.

just feeding the sensationalism.


----------



## uswrld

President Camacho said:


> You won't have to do it Aryan, there's already a whole team in this forum that cheers, laughs, and dances at the news of NATO troops perishing in Afghanistan. Many actually claim to throng _mithai_ shops, so they can celebrate those deaths in the most joyous ways possible.
> 
> Now let's count how many Americans have shown any sort of satisfaction/happiness at the news of the death of these 28 Pak soldiers... what do you say?


Common American are most gullible people squeezed to work for capitalists. They do not know what's happening except when they watch their own media for fifteen minutes a day. Many of them do not even know whether Pakistan is a country or not. How woudl you expect them to tract. If you have ever been to that country there is a big disconnect between policy makers ( we know who they are) and general public. How many times they have reacted to their own deaths??????????


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## Safriz

Irfan Baloch said:


> the news reporters and people have no clue what they are talking about.
> its army's new uniform and secondly he has not served in SSG.



Well thanks for bursting my bubble..I was glad that finally they are taking the matter seriously and showing it off.


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## iPhone

Bhairava said:


> I don't understand why it was an unprovoked fire ? Was NATO feeling itchy on Thanksgiving weekend and wanted to pass time by firing some ammo on 'sleeping' Pakistanis ?
> 
> They know this is a grave aggravation, and yet after the cost-benefit analysis went ahead with the attack. Common sense dictates that there is more to this than just meets the eye or what is currently available gligible NATO



You know what, why don't you Indians ask NATO why they attacked US? Instead of telling us it doesn't make sense. Do we care? We know we were attacked and these guys did it. 

It's like a thief or a burglar enter somebodys house at night, steals everything, beats the residents before leaving and then in the morning everyone asks the owner, why do you think the burglar came into your house? Of all the houses on the block he picked yours, it doesn't make any sense. Fuk you.

I bet you it was Indian soldiers Indians wouldn't be doin this much brainstorming.


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## pakdefender

Bhairava said:


> Now if you don't want to believe what actually transpired between the Gen and Senators in a Senate hearing and continue to insist on your anonymous sources, well its upto you.
> 
> Let me just say Senate hearings are not your average Lab-viva sessions where you can get away with bluffing your Professor. They are on a different level altogether.
> 
> Anyway that is not relevant as with each passing blockade drama , NATO is reducing the quantum that passes through Pakistan and this will be no different.



NATO/US source are saying that their logistics are in our hands but you indians are trying to put spin on it ... Dill ku kush raknay kay liya khyal acha ha Ghalib but the facts on ground are not what you wish them to be.

The other routes are longer , more expensive and require dealing with Russia over which they dont have as much influence as they have over Pakistan.

And the genious who said that they can fly stuff in well I hope you become the Chief of Logistics for US/NATO froces as you'll bankerrupt them in no time with all the flights carrying the tons of supplies that the US army needs to sustain it self in afghanistan


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## Vassnti

My thoughts and prayers for the Shaheed and their families. 
The loss of any life if tragic but it is always harder when its blue on blue.


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## 53fd

indianrabbit said:


> Few questions on the bold part.
> 1) How many billions of dollars of damage?
> 2) Is the road is damaged or reapired now?
> 3) If repaired, where did you got the money to repair.
> 
> The figures should match when you list billions, my take is that figure is exhagratted.



First of all, the NATO trucks do not pay any levy to the government:

NATO trucks pay zero toll tax | Pakistan Today | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

Pakistan has suffered at least Rs 122 billion losses to the roads of the country as a result of the NATO trucks operating:

Govt mulls tax on Nato trucks | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Bhairava

iPhone said:


> You know what, why don't you Indians ask NATO why they attacked US? Instead of telling us it doesn't make sense. Do we care? We know we were attacked and these guys did it.
> 
> It's like a thief or a burglar enter somebodys house at night, steals everything, beats the residents before leaving and then in the morning everyone asks the owner, why do you think the burglar came into your house? Of all the houses on the block he picked yours, it doesn't make any sense. Fuk you.
> 
> I bet you it was Indian soldiers Indians wouldn't be doin this much brainstorming.


 

Read Irfan Baloch's reply (#1527).

Maybe coming from a Pakistani it might make more sense to you.

---------- Post added at 05:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:12 AM ----------




pakdefender said:


> NATO/US source are saying that their logistics are in our hands but you indians are trying to put spin on it ... Dill ku kush raknay kay liya khyal acha ha Ghalib but the facts on ground are not what you wish them to be.
> ........



I'm not putting any spin. Just quoting directly from the recorded minutes of Senate Armed forces Commitee. As I said believing it or not is upto you.With each passing blockage saga the number is reducing.


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## SEAL

safriz said:


> The army cheif is in commando uniform...instead of his normal Khaki....
> This means the decleration of emergency among army ranks.



Its a new uniform of PA, Khaki is gone and there is no emergency in PA ranks as this attack is not new they are used to such things.


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## Hulk

bilalhaider said:


> First of all, the NATO trucks do not pay any levy to the government:
> 
> NATO trucks pay zero toll tax | Pakistan Today | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia
> 
> Pakistan has suffered at least Rs 122 billion losses to the roads of the country as a result of the NATO trucks operating:
> 
> Govt mulls tax on Nato trucks | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



Since you did not mention the units I am considering 122 billion dollars.

Now if that was the damage, either of the two will be true.
1) Roads never got repaired.
2) You spent 122 billion dollars and the roads were repaired.
3) Someone in between.

Let me know what is the case.

If you spent 122 billion dollars to repair, where did you got this money?

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## 53fd

indianrabbit said:


> Since you did not mention the units I am considering 122 billion dollars.
> 
> Now if that was the damage, either of the two will be true.
> 1) Roads never got repaired.
> 2) You spent 122 billion dollars and the roads were repaired.
> 3) Someone in between.
> 
> Let me know what is the case.
> 
> If you spent 122 billion dollars to repair, where did you got this money?



Let me explain a few things. All of them are true:

1) Rs means rupees, not dollars. Rupees 122 billion. 
2) The road infrastructure has been affected adversely. 
3) We are going off-topic.


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## American Pakistani

indianrabbit said:


> Since you did not mention the units I am considering 122 billion dollars.
> 
> Now if that was the damage, either of the two will be true.
> 1) Roads never got repaired.
> 2) You spent 122 billion dollars and the roads were repaired.
> 3) Someone in between.
> 
> Let me know what is the case.
> 
> If you spent 122 billion dollars to repair, where did you got this money?



He wrote Rs 122 billion not $.


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## Irfan Baloch

pakdefender said:


> NATO/US source are saying that their logistics are in our hands but you indians are trying to put spin on it ... Dill ku kush raknay kay liya khyal acha ha Ghalib but the facts on ground are not what you wish them to be.
> 
> The other routes are longer , more expensive and require dealing with Russia over which they dont have as much influence as they have over Pakistan.
> 
> And the genious who said that they can fly stuff in well I hope you become the Chief of Logistics for US/NATO froces as you'll bankerrupt them in no time with all the flights carrying the tons of supplies that the US army needs to sustain it self in afghanistan




@ WILL ALL PAKISTANIS STOP FEEDING THE INDIAN TROLLS REGARDING THE SUPPLIES AND THE MONEY AND ECONOMY & WHAT %AGE GOES FROM PAKISTAN AND WHAT NOT?

its totally irrelevant and feeding these trolls to derail the topic and post garbage.

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## pakdefender

The really sad part whcih is somewhat ironic also is that it quite likely that the fuel that was transported over our soil was used to fill up the choppers which then flew in to martyr 28 of our finiest men.

JAAG PAKISTAN !!! JAAAAGG!!!


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## American Pakistani

Pakistani soldiers salute the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a Nato strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. The United States moves to salvage ties with Pakistan after Nato air strikes on border outposts killed 24 soldiers and plunged relations into crisis, backing a full probe and expressing condolences.  AFP Photo


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## SEAL

The blockage of supply line is not going to make big impact on US/NATO until its last for more than one month. As far as reaction is concern they are not leaving A'stan till 2014 maybe more so we have a lot of time to payback in many ways.


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## American Pakistani

Pakistani soldiers carry the coffins of their comrades who were killed in a Nato strike during a funeral ceremony in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. &#8211; AFP Photo

---------- Post added at 06:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------






Pakistani security and government officials offer funeral prayers for the Pakistani soldiers who were killed in a Nato strike in Peshawar on November 27, 2011. &#8211; AFP Photo


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## pakdefender

Irfan Baloch said:


> @ WILL ALL PAKISTANIS STOP FEEDING THE INDIAN TROLLS REGARDING THE SUPPLIES AND THE MONEY AND ECONOMY & WHAT %AGE GOES FROM PAKISTAN AND WHAT NOT?
> 
> its totally irrelevant and feeding these trolls to derail the topic and post garbage.



Logistics are critical for a war , they cannot be ignored so its totally relevant to talk about using the supply routes to put the squeeze on enemy forces who are attacking us


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## American Pakistani




----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

President Camacho said:


> ^^^ For all those who were doubting whether there would be any joint investigation with Pakistan as an investigating party.
> 
> 
> ^^^ For all those who think it was a deliberate NATO sanctioned attack to kill a few Pakistani troops... for what? Sh!ts n giggles??? This attack is a bigger loss to NATO than it is to Pakistan. For a nation or an army, troops can be replaced, but the opportunities and strategic moments and allies cannot. They are not fools to shoot themselves in the foot after coming so long into this war.
> 
> 
> 
> For once, I get the feeling that Afghan intelligence too might have played a part in this.


Regardless of whether or not a 'third party played a part in this', at best this is utter incompetence by NATO - smaller scale incidents like these have happened in the past several times, and Pakistan stopped supplies the last time as well, and Pakistan has exchanged information on the location of its posts several times.

How an authorization for air strikes on not just one, but two fortified Pakistani positions housing 50+ troops, could go ahead without a realization that the areas being targeted were Pakistani bases, appears rather inexplicable.

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## American Pakistani

Cargo trucks, including those carrying supplies to Nato forces in Afghanistan, are seen halted along the Pakistan-Torkham border, after it was shut down to traffic November 26, 2011. &#8211; Reuters Photo

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## American Pakistani

Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar told Clinton Sunday Nov. 27, 2011 that the attack was unacceptable, showed complete disregard for human life and sparked rage within Pakistan. &#8211; AP File Photo.






In a joint statement, US Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton offered their &#8220;deepest condolences&#8221; and said they backed &#8220;Nato&#8217;s intention to investigate immediately.&#8221; &#8211; AFP File Photo


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## Agni5000

American Pakistani said:


> Cargo trucks, including those carrying supplies to Nato forces in Afghanistan, are seen halted along the Pakistan-Torkham border, after it was shut down to traffic November 26, 2011. &#8211; Reuters Photo



How many cargo trucks go to afghanistan per DAY for NATO supply?


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## pakdefender

indianrabbit said:


> You will not be able to do much, but in return you will be sent to stonge age.
> Come out of dream and realize, you are peanuts infront on them, either by weapons or by money.



you'll find that out soon enough what we can and cannot do


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## American Pakistani

Agni5000 said:


> How many cargo trucks go to afghanistan per DAY for NATO supply?



Don't know exactly but it may be huge as visible from the picture which is just few hours after massacre.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------

Some videos by indian channals.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

888jamie888 said:


> He's speaking some truths. It's just everyone else is blinded by nationalism and bloodlust.


The opinion of the majority of Pakistanis here, based on the arguments made and information known so far, would be that it is VC and others supporting the NATO position that are the ones' blinded by a pathological hatred of the Pakistani Military and blood lust' - certainly the commentary by users in many Western media outlets (online) indicates a very high degree of the above, as a result of years of brainwashing and propaganda fed by the Western Establishment to the populace via the Western media.

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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Regardless of whether or not a 'third party played a part in this', at best this is utter incompetence by NATO - smaller scale incidents like these have happened in the past several times, and Pakistan stopped supplies the last time as well, and Pakistan has exchanged information on the location of its posts several times.
> 
> How an authorization for air strikes on not just one, but two fortified Pakistani positions housing 50+ troops, could go ahead without a realization that the areas being targeted were Pakistani bases, appears rather inexplicable.



Both the parties have exchanged fires in the past - despite all the communication in place. Both the parties have had losses in those fires too. 

Such things happen in times of war, and yes - they are accidents, they are not deliberate actions, and they are not rare either. Remember how Pat Tillman died? That's a famous case - you must know. The NATO troops had great and sophisticated modes of communication between them, yet accident happened. Sinking of Seawise Giant? In fact quite a few times Pakistani troops too have killed their own! And so have others.

AM, I am not giving out judgements here. I am not saying Pakistani troops were harboring terrorists, and I am not even saying the fire from the chopper was to cover the infiltration of terrorists into Pakistani territory (It would be stupid to not just fire, but even kill so many simply to infiltrate the terrorists). But I strongly feel you are judging a bit too quickly, with nothing but your own speculation fueled with your bias in favor of Pakistani troops. 

Patriotism, yes I understand it is a very powerful emotional force, but unless you know all the outcome of the investigation reports beforehand, or unless you were there at the post as well as in the chopper at the same time to witness everything that took place, you shouldn't be throwing such accusations with the confidence you show.

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## 53fd

President Camacho said:


> Both the parties have exchanged fires in the past - despite all the communication in place. Both the parties have had losses in those fires too.
> 
> Such things happen in times of war, and yes - they are accidents, they are not deliberate actions, and they are not rare either. Remember how Pat Tillman died? That's a famous case - you must know. The NATO troops had great and sophisticated modes of communication between them, yet accident happened. Sinking of Seawise Giant? In fact quite a few times Pakistani troops too have killed their own! And so have others.
> 
> AM, I am not giving out judgements here. I am not saying Pakistani troops were harboring terrorists, and I am not even saying the fire from the chopper was to cover the infiltration of terrorists into Pakistani territory (It would be stupid to not just fire, but even kill so many simply to infiltrate the terrorists). But I strongly feel you are judging a bit too quickly, with nothing but your own speculation fueled with your bias in favor of Pakistani troops.
> 
> Patriotism, yes I understand it is a very powerful emotional force, but unless you know all the outcome of the investigation reports beforehand, or unless you were there at the post as well as in the chopper at the same time to witness everything that took place, you shouldn't be throwing such accusations with the confidence you show.



No one's coming to any conclusions here, the fact of the matter is that NATO helicopters intruded deep (2.5 kms) into Pakistan, attacked two Pakistani outposts & killed 24 soldiers.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

President Camacho said:


> You won't have to do it Aryan, there's already a whole team in this forum that cheers, laughs, and dances at the news of NATO troops perishing in Afghanistan. Many actually claim to throng _mithai_ shops, so they can celebrate those deaths in the most joyous ways possible.
> 
> Now let's count how many Americans have shown any sort of satisfaction/happiness at the news of the death of these 28 Pak soldiers... what do you say?


I would advise you to check out the comments sections of the major Western media outlets, as well as blogs like LWJ, to see the 'rejoicing Westerners' when tragedy hits Pakistan - and that attitude has been present for several years now.

Schadenfreude cuts both ways here - it isn't just exclusive to the Muslim world and/or Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 07:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------




President Camacho said:


> Both the parties have exchanged fires in the past - despite all the communication in place. Both the parties have had losses in those fires too.
> 
> Such things happen in times of war, and yes - they are accidents, they are not deliberate actions, and they are not rare either. Remember how Pat Tillman died? That's a famous case - you must know. The NATO troops had great and sophisticated modes of communication between them, yet accident happened. Sinking of Seawise Giant? In fact quite a few times Pakistani troops too have killed their own! And so have others.
> 
> AM, I am not giving out judgements here. I am not saying Pakistani troops were harboring terrorists, and I am not even saying the fire from the chopper was to cover the infiltration of terrorists into Pakistani territory (It would be stupid to not just fire, but even kill so many simply to infiltrate the terrorists). But I strongly feel you are judging a bit too quickly, with nothing but your own speculation fueled with your bias in favor of Pakistani troops.
> 
> Patriotism, yes I understand it is a very powerful emotional force, but unless you know all the outcome of the investigation reports beforehand, or unless you were there at the post as well as in the chopper at the same time to witness everything that took place, you shouldn't be throwing such accusations with the confidence you show.


'Friendly fire' during combat while deployed in a theater is understandable - 'friendly fire' against two fortified Pakistani Army positions whose location was communicated to ISAF several times is, as I pointed out, inexplicable, especially given the fact that much smaller scale events have occurred in the past and supposedly actions were taken to prevent them.

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## lem34

President Camacho said:


> Both the parties have exchanged fires in the past - despite all the communication in place. Both the parties have had losses in those fires too.
> 
> Such things happen in times of war, and yes - they are accidents, they are not deliberate actions, and they are not rare either. Remember how Pat Tillman died? That's a famous case - you must know. The NATO troops had great and sophisticated modes of communication between them, yet accident happened. Sinking of Seawise Giant? In fact quite a few times Pakistani troops too have killed their own! And so have others.
> 
> AM, I am not giving out judgements here. I am not saying Pakistani troops were harboring terrorists, and I am not even saying the fire from the chopper was to cover the infiltration of terrorists into Pakistani territory (It would be stupid to not just fire, but even kill so many simply to infiltrate the terrorists). But I strongly feel you are judging a bit too quickly, with nothing but your own speculation fueled with your bias in favor of Pakistani troops.
> 
> Patriotism, yes I understand it is a very powerful emotional force, but unless you know all the outcome of the investigation reports beforehand, or unless you were there at the post as well as in the chopper at the same time to witness everything that took place, you shouldn't be throwing such accusations with the confidence you show.



president mate normally have a lot of time for your excellant posts. however on this occasion I must disagree with you. Nato know of these positions, they are in pakistani territory, secondly I would be happy to accept your suggestion if it had been 1 post that was attacked but two??

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Save your breath; this is the same type of misguided crowd that celebrated the murder of Salman Taseer too.


No it isn't - you make the typical 'Pakistani elite liberal fascist' mistake of conflating support for nationalist policies with support for regressive and extreme religious and cultural interpretations.

As I said, 'schadenfreude exists in both the West and Pakistan', though the West likes to pretend that its 'shite don't stink'.

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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> If you had been reading the thread instead of worrying about your own status you would have seen the article in the brit press in telegraph where they had interviewed *the survivors who said it was an unprovoked attack*, but then of course you wont belive it becuase its from a pakistani soldier



That is only their side of the story; a balanced view can only be formed when facts from both sides are known.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The following article speaks to what I believe is a dishonest and destructive argument of 'accept ground realities' on your part VC:
> 
> *Pakistan has had enough*​
> _The assumption that it has no choice but to obey America may turn out to be a dire strategic error_
> 
> Simon Tisdall
> guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 November 2011 15.35 EST
> Article history
> 
> ............................
> The belief that weak, impoverished, divided Pakistan has no alternative but to slavishly obey its master's voice could turn out to be one of the seminal strategic miscalculations of the 21st century. Alternative alliances with China or Russia aside, Muslim Pakistan, if bullied and scorned for long enough by its western mentors, could yet morph through external trauma and internal collapse into quite a different animal.* The future paradigm here is not another well-trained Indonesia or Malaysia. It is the Islamic Republic of Iran.*
> 
> Pakistan has had enough | Simon Tisdall | Comment is free | The Guardian



So an outcome where Pakistan is as isolated as Iran would be acceptable to you, with the economic troubles multiplied manifold over those of Iran due to a lack of oil and increasing social pressures?



bilalhaider said:


> You sure about that?
> 
> Foreign Office concludes Davis is not a diplomat



From your own source: _"The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, *who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity*, it is learnt."_. The nature of those "certain immunities"" was never clarified as to whether criminal charges could proceed.



Aryan_B said:


> Yea your posts are not dignified. explain how is this dignified when we are in mourning:
> 
> 
> _Soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY.
> 
> Fact.
> 
> Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality_
> 
> You dont say this to americans do you when their soldiers die cos they would lynch you and chase you out of america



Please mourn in a dignified, and not hysterical, manner.



bilalhaider said:


> So you admit your posts are not based on facts concerning this incident? Why are you posting off-topic posts unrelated to the incident on this thread then?



I have been consistent is saying that let us wait for the final investigation report.



pakdefender said:


> you'll find that out soon enough what we can and cannot do



Please be careful here; false bravado will get you nowhere. The capabilities of the Pakistani military are formidable indeed, but may not be as formidable as you would believe.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The opinion of the majority of Pakistanis here, based on the arguments made and information known so far, would be that it is VC and others supporting the NATO position that are the ones' blinded by a pathological hatred of the Pakistani Military and blood lust' - certainly the commentary by users in many Western media outlets (online) indicates a very high degree of the above, as a result of years of brainwashing and propaganda fed by the Western Establishment to the populace via the Western media.



I have no hatred against anyone or any entity, pathological or otherwise. I only analyze dispassionately and express the results truthfully. 

Mark my words again: The Army will be the downfall of Pakistan. Many will disagree with this opinion, and i respect that, but to call the motivation mere hatred is wrong. The roots of that opinion are factual and logically supportable. The unfolding events will only serve to reinforce that opinion, sadly.

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## pakdefender

President Camacho said:


> Both the parties have exchanged fires in the past - despite all the communication in place. Both the parties have had losses in those fires too.
> 
> Such things happen in times of war, and yes - they are accidents, they are not deliberate actions, and they are not rare either. Remember how Pat Tillman died? That's a famous case - you must know. The NATO troops had great and sophisticated modes of communication between them, yet accident happened. Sinking of Seawise Giant? In fact quite a few times Pakistani troops too have killed their own! And so have others.
> 
> AM, I am not giving out judgements here. I am not saying Pakistani troops were harboring terrorists, and I am not even saying the fire from the chopper was to cover the infiltration of terrorists into Pakistani territory (It would be stupid to not just fire, but even kill so many simply to infiltrate the terrorists). But I strongly feel you are judging a bit too quickly, with nothing but your own speculation fueled with your bias in favor of Pakistani troops.
> 
> Patriotism, yes I understand it is a very powerful emotional force, but unless you know all the outcome of the investigation reports beforehand, or unless you were there at the post as well as in the chopper at the same time to witness everything that took place, you shouldn't be throwing such accusations with the confidence you show.



This is an undeclared war on Pakistan and the western block ( NATO and America ) is seeking to damage us as part of the broader offensive against Muslim countries.
They have used same perverted arguments and have engineered conflicts in the past to kill thousands ( perhaps even more than a million ) people in other muslim courtiers like iraq , libya and afghanistan and in Pakistan's case they dont have absolute dominance over us .. At least not yet ... they don&#8217;t have the dominance they want to cause unprecedented murder in Pakistan since they are stuck in Afghansitan and have been unable to subdue the insurgency there.
If we did not have Nuclear capability they would have attacked us long time back. This attack should be wake up call for all Pakistanis. 
Pakistan indeed has many enemies, NATO/US is the most potent one, India is the most annoying one and Israel is the most clever one!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The Pakistani FO still has not decided yet about RD's status.
> 
> My posts are correct.


You did not state that 'the facts regarding RD's diplomatic status be established', you argued that the US government position WRT RD's status was correct, and that 'Pakistan should accept the ground realities and fall in line with the US position'. 

Much as your positions on this thread are contradictory and your arguments circular - either you need to either choose your words better when making an argument, or the choice of words is intentional and, as I pointed out, your claim that you are being 'objective and neutral' is simply a veneer for bashing Pakistan and supporting the US/West no matter what their crimes.

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## VCheng

VCheng said:


> Save your breath; this is the *same type of misguided crowd *that celebrated the murder of Salman Taseer too...................





AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No it isn't - you make the typical 'Pakistani elite liberal fascist' mistake of conflating support for nationalist policies with support for regressive and extreme religious and cultural interpretations.
> .....................



Yes it is the same _TYPE _of misguided zeal that leads to blindly following a set doctrine, no matter how erroneous and outdated it may be.

They are _BOTH _blinded to reality, one by nationalist zealot ideology, and one by extremist religious ideology, and both cannot see the inevitable outcomes.

My comment stands.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> From your own source: _"The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a *non-diplomatic staff member* of the US Consulate, _


_*

Yes, Davis is a "non-diplomatic staff member". Meaning Raymond Davis was not a diplomat, he was a non-diplomatic staff member. Can't get any more clearer than that. 




I have been consistent is saying that let us wait for the final investigation report.

Click to expand...


Yes, you have been consistent in your conjecture, but your posts have been off-topic & have not contributed anything with respect to the incident mentioned in this thread.*_

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You did not state that 'the facts regarding RD's diplomatic status be established', you argued that the US government position WRT RD's status was correct, and that 'Pakistan should accept the ground realities and fall in line with the US position'. ..................



Not to take this thread off topic, but the US government position WAS proven to be correct and Pakistan DID accept the ground realities and let RD go.

---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> Yes, Davis is a "non-diplomatic staff member". Meaning Raymond Davis was not a diplomat, he was a non-diplomatic staff member. Can't get any more clearer than that...................



Please quote the *COMPLETE *sentence and see the clearer picture.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Please quote the *COMPLETE *sentence and see the clearer picture.



I have quoted the statement. He was not a diplomat & was not eligible for diplomatic immunity.



bilalhaider said:


> He was not given diplomatic immunity, because he was a a non-diplomatic staff member. It has been made adequately clear. Can you please stop posting off-topic, & concentrate on this thread?





VCheng said:


> So where is RD now?



That doesn't determine whether he was a diplomat or not. He was not a diplomat & was tried in court.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No it isn't - you make the typical 'Pakistani elite liberal fascist' mistake of conflating support for nationalist policies with support for regressive and extreme religious and cultural interpretations.
> 
> As I said, 'schadenfreude exists in both the West and Pakistan', though the West likes to pretend that its 'shite don't stink'.



I repeat what you said: 
"typical '*Pakistani elite liberal fascist*' mistake of conflating support for nationalist policies with support for regressive and extreme religious and cultural interpretations." 

Totally agreed , you made my day


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## lem34

what saddens me is that any death of an individual should be regarded as a tragedy including american deaths but it is american reactions to our people being killed that sometimes makes me feel that non white non american lives are cheaper and in turn makes all of us bitter. Americans in their disproportionate response to sept 11 attacks have made americans to be viewed in the same light as the like of the terrorists that theey claim to be their enemies. 

Americans soldiers are now responsible for more innocent deaths than al qaida and co

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Not to take this thread off topic, but the US government position WAS proven to be correct and Pakistan DID accept the ground realities and let RD go.



The US position was not correct, because he was not given diplomatic immunity: he was tried & had to pay a penalty before he was released. Anyways you are right, this is off-topic, like most of your posts


----------



## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> I have quoted the statement. He was not a diplomat & was not eligible for diplomatic immunity.



This is the complete statement:

"The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, *who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity*, it is learnt.".

---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> The US position was not correct, because he was not given diplomatic immunity: he was tried & had to pay a penalty before he was released. Anyways you are right, this is off-topic, like most of your posts





So where is RD now?


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> This is the complete statement:
> 
> "The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, *who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity*, it is learnt.".



He was not given diplomatic immunity, because he was a a non-diplomatic staff member. It has been made adequately clear. Can you please stop posting off-topic, & concentrate on this thread?


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Yes it is the same _TYPE _of misguided zeal that leads to blindly following a set doctrine, no matter how erroneous and outdated it may be.
> 
> They are _BOTH _blinded to reality, one by nationalist zealot ideology, and one by extremist religious ideology, and both cannot see the inevitable outcomes.
> 
> My comment stands.



No it doesnt you were referring to me. Knowing full well that I had been critical of the person who was responsible for taseer murder. you were playing to the anti pakistani gallery and dismissing and lumping me in with extremist when you know full well that I am no misguided al quaida terrorist wannabe


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## pakdefender

Aryan_B said:


> what saddens me is that any death of an individual should be regarded as a tragedy including american deaths but it is american reactions to our people being killed that sometimes makes me feel that non white non american lives are cheaper and in turn makes all of us bitter. Americans in their disproportionate response to sept 11 attacks have made americans to be viewed in the same light as the like of the terrorists that theey claim to be their enemies.
> 
> Americans soldiers are now responsible for more innocent deaths than al qaida and co



one just has to read the CNN comments section to see the hate filled vomit that comes out of american and indian posters. americans are war mongers , war is always an election item , the american population has enough blood lust that politicans talk war as part of their election campaign ... that should tell us something about what sort of people we are dealing with

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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I would advise you to check out the comments sections of the major Western media outlets, as well as blogs like LWJ, to see the 'rejoicing Westerners' when tragedy hits Pakistan - and that attitude has been present for several years now.



Hey man, come on now don't be referring me to YouTube next. Are we supposed to define our standards by looking at others? That blog, LWJ, Yahoo News, or say YouTube etc, they do not have Mods there. Their gates are open to anyone who may come, post, and leave. 

Those are specifically *comments* section. They are not a place where people deliberate on situations in disciplined and organized fashion. To make sure of that we need Moderators, such as you on here, or some on other sites with WDN.

I have been to many forums, and those who rejoice the deaths of others, even enemies, do not last long. However, I particularly note that the presence of those who get into such petty habits, is one of the foremost signs of declining quality of the forum.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 'Friendly fire' during combat while deployed in a theater is understandable - 'friendly fire' against two fortified Pakistani Army positions whose location was communicated to ISAF several times is, as I pointed out, inexplicable, especially given the fact that much smaller scale events have occurred in the past and supposedly actions were taken to prevent them.



Yes, I know what you are saying AM. I too do not understand how could they just blast out a post full of so many troops. But also AM, every act has a motive. The bigger the act, the stronger the motive. 

What are NATO/US supposed to gain by deliberately killing 28 Pakistani soldiers? It jeopardized their most economic route of supply. That's a consequence that even a kid could guess. So what exactly did they gain? 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Schadenfreude cuts both ways here - it isn't just exclusive to the Muslim world and/or Pakistan.



AM, brother, you are in a pretty bad mood today. I am sorry for whatever got you like this... I'd say please sit back and have some chai/coffee/whatever you like. Take a short break, calm down man.

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## pakdefender

VCheng said:


> This is the complete statement:
> 
> "The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, *who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity*, it is learnt.".
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So where is RD now?



RD has been booked for attacking a senior citizen in the US , thats where he is now


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## uswrld

[QU^^ For all those who were doubting whether there would be any joint investigation with Pakistan as an investigating party.
^^^ For all those who think it was a deliberate NATO sanctioned attack to kill a few Pakistani troops... for what? Sh!ts n giggles??? This attack is a bigger loss to NATO than it is to Pakistan. For a nation or an army, troops can be replaced, but the opportunities and strategic moments and allies cannot. They are not fools to shoot themselves in the foot after coming so long into this war.

We take your word and say NATO is a bunch of stupids, idiots and dumbos who are being run being Afhan Intelligence agencies. Poor guys were cheated or were victim of Afghan intelligence. There are few messages for the people who want to think:
It is a symbolic attack ( Molin Memo) like the one was done after Raymond Davis release
Increase pressure to fight American war with Pakistani soldiers as Americans are not born to die
Gauge reaction of pakistani people and how their installed pup[pet regime handles the pressure


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## lem34

what makes me sick is that cheng keeps making off topic comments not related to our tragedy of 28 valuable young lives terminated in their prime for no reason with smilys. Irfanbhai why dont you send this troll where he should be.


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## 53fd

pakdefender said:


> RD has been booked for attacking a senior citizenin the US , that where he is now



He is being deliberately disingenuous, & he knows it. There is no solution for that attitude.


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> RD has been booked for attacking a senior citizenin the US , that where he is now



At least he was escorted to the airport and flew out of the country while on the Exit Control List! 

But this is not related to this topic, so I will stop here.

===============================

Back to the topic: *It is likely that the supply routes will reopen within one month.*

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------




Aryan_B said:


> what makes me sick is that cheng keeps making off topic comments not related to our tragedy of 28 valuable young lives terminated in their prime for no reason with smilys. Irfanbhai why dont you send this troll where he should be.



I respect the fallen soldiers.

My smilies are reserved for your childish antics.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

VCheng : Pakistan should be thankful to RD for exposing them and putting the visa checks and cutting activities of Uncle Sam in Pakistan, because of him common people came to know what Zardari and Co are up too (now one less the ambassador and RD is also one reason he was not liked by the army as he gave them the visa ).
Well Quraishi sub will tell the nation more about Zardari and Co in his Karachi address and to him RD had no immunity.


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## VCheng

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> VCheng : Pakistan should be thankful to RD for exposing them and putting the visa checks and cutting activities of Uncle Sam in Pakistan, because of him common people came to know what Zardari and Co are up too (now one less).
> Well Quraishi sub will tell the nation more about Zardari and Co in his Karachi address and to him RD had no immunity.



Good points!

Always glad to help!


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Back to the topic: *It is likely that the supply routes will reopen within one month.*




This is this topic of this thread:

_NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack_

Anyways, you are entitled to your opinions, at least you aren't claiming you are using facts to explain your position.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> That is only their side of the story; a balanced view can only be formed when facts from both sides are known.


Keep that in mind when accusations against Pakistan, and specifically accusations against the PA and ISI, get flung by the West.



> So an outcome where Pakistan is as isolated as Iran would be acceptable to you, with the economic troubles multiplied manifold over those of Iran due to a lack of oil and increasing social pressures?


Yes - an outcome such as a revolution ala Iran (religious or otherwise) is acceptable to the status quo, even without the oil. The one thing the Islamic Revolution in Iran did deliver was good basic governance and investment in education and basic infrastructure. With just that and Pakistan's agrarian backbone and existing industrial base, Pakistan will prosper.



> Please mourn in a dignified, and not hysterical, manner.


You of all people cannot call for 'Mourning in a 'dignified manner' when you argue for 'accepting the ground realities of injustice and inequality' and argue for a cessation of the condemnation directed against the perpetrators of this crime.


> I have no hatred against anyone or any entity, pathological or otherwise. I only analyze dispassionately and express the results truthfully.


You may think you 'analyze dispassionately and express the results truthfully', others obviously disagree, and why they disagree has been made clear in the arguments made on this thread.


> Mark my words again: The Army will be the downfall of Pakistan. Many will disagree with this opinion, and i respect that, but to call the motivation mere hatred is wrong. The roots of that opinion are factual and logically supportable. The unfolding events will only serve to reinforce that opinion, sadly.


It is an unjustified argument, and there are existing threads where this argument has plaid out and my (and others) position made clear as to why this argument is unjustified.

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> This is this topic of this thread:
> 
> _NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack_



Yes. 
And as a response, NATO supply routes have been closed, and I am opining that they will reopen within one month. 

Entirely relevant on-topic post.


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Good points!
> 
> *Always glad to help!*



Huh? 

---------- Post added at 06:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------




VCheng said:


> Yes.
> And as a response, NATO supply routes have been closed, and I am opining that they will reopen within one month.
> 
> Entirely relevant on-topic post.



I never said this post was off-topic. You are entitled to your opinions, at least you aren't claiming you are using facts to explain your position.


----------



## lem34

VCheng said:


> Back to the topic: *It is likely that the supply routes will reopen within one month.*
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> I respect the fallen soldiers.
> 
> My smilies are reserved for your childish antics.



So you are resorting to personal attacks now are you?? calling me childish when you are the most self centered brat on this forum!

Even americans expect payback for what they have done, you are being more american than american. They still will never accept you...

One Isaf source voiced concern that the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, could go much further and use its suspected influence over insurgent groups in the tribal areas along the Afghan border to launch reprisal attacks on Nato. "This will come back at us, and at a time and a place of their [the ISI's] choosing," the source predicted. In September the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said the ISI was using insurgent groups such as the Haqqani network to wage a "proxy war" in Afghanistan.


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The opinion of the majority of Pakistanis here, based on the arguments made and *information known so far,* would be that it is VC and others supporting the NATO position that are the ones' blinded by a pathological hatred of the Pakistani Military and blood lust' - certainly the commentary by users in many Western media outlets (online) indicates a very high degree of the above, as a result of years of brainwashing and propaganda fed by the Western Establishment to the populace via the Western media.



The information known so far is only the tip of the ice-berg.

Justifying your opinion bases on that is not a sound practise. There is more to this than just meets the eye/available in media right now.

Let the final investigation from both sides submit their reports.

At the risk of going against popular opinion I say, Pak side may not have been completely innocent in this whole episode. The rather muted response from ISPR only adds to that suspicion that they want to play this down.


----------



## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Keep that in mind when accusations against Pakistan, and specifically accusations against the PA and ISI, get flung by the West.



Absolutely I do, and will. Thank you for the reminder.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes - an outcome such as a revolution ala Iran (religious or otherwise) is acceptable to the status quo, even without the oil. The one thing the Islamic Revolution in Iran did deliver was good basic governance and investment in education and basic infrastructure. With just that and Pakistan's agrarian backbone and existing industrial base, Pakistan will prosper.



If such a revolution provides for good basic governance and investment in education and basic infrastructure, then even I might find grounds to support it!



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You of all people cannot call for 'Mourning in a 'dignified manner' when you argue for 'accepting the ground realities of injustice and inequality' and argue for a cessation of the condemnation directed against the perpetrators of this crime.



Condemn and mourn, of course, but without the hysteria please. That is all I am saying.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You may think you 'analyze dispassionately and express the results truthfully', others obviously disagree, and why they disagree has been made clear in the arguments made on this thread.



I respect differing opinions too, and ask for no less for mine.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is an unjustified argument, and there are existing threads where this argument has plaid out and my (and others) position made clear as to why this argument is unjustified.



We will discuss that topic further elsewhere, I am sure.

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 PM ----------




Aryan_B said:


> ........................
> One Isaf source voiced concern that the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, could go much further and use its suspected influence over insurgent groups in the tribal areas along the Afghan border to launch reprisal attacks on Nato. "This will come back at us, and at a time and a place of their [the ISI's] choosing," the source predicted. In September the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said the ISI was using insurgent groups such as the Haqqani network to wage a "proxy war" in Afghanistan.



Sure, they might be a few attacks here and there, but that will be about as effective as a bug hitting a windshield. Nobody in NATO is losing sleep over this type of retaliation, I assure you.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Yes it is the same _TYPE _of misguided zeal that leads to blindly following a set doctrine, no matter how erroneous and outdated it may be.
> 
> They are _BOTH _blinded to reality, one by nationalist zealot ideology, and one by extremist religious ideology, and both cannot see the inevitable outcomes.
> 
> My comment stands.


There is a significant difference between the two positions - it is in fact your position on 'nationalist issues' that has more in common with the arguments of the religious extremists.

The religious extremist only cares for 'equality and justice' as long as it is the religious extremists twisted version of 'equality and justice' that is being implemented, and the religious extremist has no qualms about claiming 'might is right' and enforcing 'injustice and inequality' at the barrel of a gun.

Pakistani nationalists are, however, arguing in favor of 'justice and equality for all' in the international comity of nations, as an extension of 'justice and equality for all' at the national level. Your response to that position is largely analogous to the religious extremist - 'accept the ground realities and accept injustice and inequality, for I (the US) have the bigger gun and it is only what the US cares about that matters.' The US as a nation, like the religious extremists, has no qualms about using violence and coercion of various kinds to enforce its policies and get its way.

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## iPhone

VCheng, you're epitome of double standards, that much is clear. You keep asking for investigation to be finalized and that's fine. But your track record shows you haven't asked for the same for Pakistan when it was accused by the west. You believed the west outright without waiting for the Pakistani side of the story. You demonstrated that as late as when Mr. Mullen accused the ISI.

So come out of this facade that you have anything good for Pakistan in you. you're not fooling anyone.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

whisper .... 

AGENT cheunge


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## Gin ka Pakistan

One reason for the ambassador to resign and not to be liked by the Army is because of RD stupid act of exposing him and bring up act of giving visa to ........


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ....................
> Pakistani nationalists are, however, arguing in favor of 'justice and equality for all' in the international comity of nations, as an extension of 'justice and equality for all' at the national level. ..........................



For the umpteenth time my dear AM, "justice and equality" at the international level is a _very _different concept, not directly extensible from the national level. 

Justice has to be EARNED at the international level, never DEMANDED.

Is that really so hard to understand?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> The information known so far is only the tip of the ice-berg.
> 
> Justifying your opinion bases on that is not a sound practise. There is more to this than just meets the eye/available in media right now.


What more can you possible speculate there is? I believe we have even covered the 'self defence' argument, and it makes no sense.


> At the risk of being banned I say, Pak side may not have been completely innocent in this whole episode. The rather muted response from ISPR only adds to that suspicion that they want to play this down.


What muted response?

Have you even read any of the comments by the DG ISPR? I believe he called this act 'deliberate and unprovoked' - that is a pretty direct accusation.

As I said earlier, some members need to stop inventing their own facts so that they can continue maligning Pakistan and excusing NATO's crimes.

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## 53fd

iPhone said:


> VCheng, you're epitome of double standards, that much is clear. You keep asking for investigation to be finalized and that's fine. But your track record shows you haven't asked for the same for Pakistan when it was accused by the west. You believed the west outright without waiting for the Pakistani side of the story. You demonstrated that as late as when Mr. Mullen accused the ISI.
> 
> So come out of this facade that you have anything good for Pakistan in you. you're not fooling anyone.



Couldn't have articulated this better myself. Well said.

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## fallstuff

It is indeed a tragic loss of life arising out of a pointless war. I don't know what is the objective of this war. What is the reason civilians and soldiers dying for ?


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## VCheng

iPhone said:


> VCheng, you're epitome of double standards, that much is clear. You keep asking for investigation to be finalized and that's fine. But your track record shows you haven't asked for the same for Pakistan when it was accused by the west. You believed the west outright without waiting for the Pakistani side of the story. You demonstrated that as late as when Mr. Mullen accused the ISI.
> 
> So come out of this facade that you have anything good for Pakistan in you. you're not fooling anyone.



So how is this relevant to the present thread?

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> Couldn't have articulated this better myself. Well said.



You may agree, but to a pointless rant irrelevant to the thread.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> For the umpteenth time my dear AM, "justice and equality" at the international level is a _very _different concept, not directly extensible from the national level.
> 
> Justice has to be EARNED at the international level, never DEMANDED.
> 
> Is that really so hard to understand?



Regardless of how you may wish to qualify the application of 'justice and equality', your argument boils down to the same as that of the religious extremist/feudal lord/dictator, as do US actions on the international stage.

Reading your commentary, I can imagine a White slave owner lecturing the same to his black slaves on his plantation, about how 'justice and equality can only be EARNED, and not DEMANDED' - of course, since it is people like the slave owner who hold power over 'delivering justice and equality', one can only imagine what 'earning it' really means.

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> That is only their side of the story; a balanced view can only be formed when facts from both sides are known.
> 
> 
> 
> .



I said that in response to you posting was there any evidence or investigation. instead of thanking me for pointing you towards evidence you immediatly went on the defence. If this had been a comment from american side you would not have waited for the pakistani version you have in the past accepted their version without waiting for pakistani version


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> So how is this relevant to the present thread?



How are these posts relevant to the present thread?



VCheng said:


> Good points!
> 
> Always glad to help!





VCheng said:


> You are correct!
> 
> I fear this patriot for sure!





VCheng said:


> My matters are between Allah and me, and I fear no man on Earth. Do what you will.





VCheng said:


> My tongue is mine to use, as is yours for you.
> 
> 
> 
> That soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY is a FACT.
> 
> 
> Your continued hysterics and wailing like little girls dishonors them more than my calm, respectful words ever will.





VCheng said:


> So why have you collected so many of them in Pindi and Islamabad?





VCheng said:


> Hey, I already have a shrink; I don't need you as another one!





VCheng said:


> No Sir: The moral depravity of the system that you are supporting is clear. You merely misdirect that ire at me.



Along with most of your posts on this thread?

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Regardless of how you may wish to qualify the application of 'justice and equality', your argument boils down to the same as that of the religious extremist/feudal lord/dictator, as do US actions on the international stage.
> 
> Reading your commentary, I can imagine a White slave owner lecturing the same to his black slaves on his plantation, about how 'justice and equality can only be EARNED, and not DEMANDED' - of course, since it is people like the slave owner who hold power over 'delivering justice and equality', one can only imagine what 'earning it' really means.



As much as your analogy is tangentially relevant, it is important since it supports my contention: INDIVIDUAL application of justice and equality as SOCIAL concepts is very different than the same words used in international geopolitics.

Even a cursory glance at human history proves me to be correct.

---------- Post added at 08:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> How are these posts relevant to the present thread?
> ...........................
> Along with most of your posts on this thread?



Please post the context of those posts as well. You are being selective again, tsk tsk.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Not to take this thread off topic, but the US government position WAS proven to be correct and Pakistan DID accept the ground realities and let RD go.


 ...which is irrelevant to the point being made - that you are being dishonest when you claim to have been 'neutral' in the RD issue, and claim to have only argued that 'the facts be established' - you quite clearly argued in favor of the official US position, and not for any objective or neutral 'let the facts be established' position.

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## lem34

we are upset at the innocent loss of life for no reason and you state:

_Now stop wailing like little girls and face reality_

it is well known that americans are very sensitive to even one death but you never come out with crap like this against them do you?


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Please post the context of those posts as well. Y*ou are being selective again, tsk tsk*.



Of course I am, just like you are 

But the difference is that I admit being selective, you claim to be fair & impartial to all.


----------



## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ...which is irrelevant to the point being made - that you are being dishonest when you claim to have been 'neutral' in the RD issue, and claim to have only argued that 'the facts be established' - you quite clearly argued in favor of the official US position, and not for any objective or neutral 'let the facts be established' position.



Need we discuss that further here in this thread?


----------



## lem34

pakdefender said:


> one just has to read the CNN comments section to see the hate filled vomit that comes out of american and indian posters. americans are war mongers , war is always an election item , the american population has enough blood lust that politicans talk war as part of their election campaign ... that should tell us something about what sort of people we are dealing with



I have now come to accept that as a fact of life but to hear it from a purpported pakistani??


----------



## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What more can you possible speculate there is? I believe we have even covered the 'self defence' argument, and it makes no sense.



I don't know. I am not an armchair general.That is why I say, wait for the investigations by the real generals to conclude.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What muted response?
> 
> Have you even read any of the comments by the DG ISPR? I believe he called this act 'deliberate and unprovoked' - that is a pretty direct accusation.



I would consider even that a muted response considering that 28 of my men were just killed , unprovoked.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As I said earlier, some members need to stop inventing their own facts so that they can continue maligning Pakistan and excusing NATO's crimes.



You are just seeing ghosts where none exists. You develop a mindset and rationalize everything to revolved around it.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> As much as your analogy is tangentially relevant, it is important since it supports my contention: INDIVIDUAL application of justice and equality as SOCIAL concepts is very different than the same words used in international geopolitics.
> 
> Even a cursory glance at human history proves me to be correct.


Nations are composed of societies, cultures and peoples - you cannot argue that injustice on the international stage will not have damaging or destructive implications for the societies and peoples comprising the nations being affected.

Your opposition, even strong distaste, for any position calling for 'equality and justice' on the international stage is very analogous to the distaste of the slave owner/feudal to any talk of 'equality and justice' that would compromise their 'interests'. 

Couch it however you wish, but what you stand for is no different than what the slave owner and feudal stand/stood for.


----------



## iPhone

VCheng said:


> Yes it is the same _TYPE _of misguided zeal that leads to blindly following a set doctrine, no matter how erroneous and outdated it may be.
> 
> They are _BOTH _blinded to reality, one by nationalist zealot ideology, and one by extremist religious ideology, and both cannot see the inevitable outcomes.
> 
> My comment stands.



Nationalistic zealots? Patriotic people? You're calling them out? Which country doesn't have those? Look at indian trolls runnig around, nationalistic zealots and westerns too, Solomon something and then countless others in the western society. You don't have any problem with them do you? After all they fall in the same category as those who celebrated Mr. taseer's death. The delusional ones who can't see the truth.

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Of course I am, just like you are
> 
> But the difference is that I admit being selective, you claim to be fair & impartial to all.



Thank you for the admission; it is appreciated.

On the other hand, I _am _fair and impartial and will continue to be so! 

---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Nations are composed of societies, cultures and peoples - you cannot argue that injustice on the international stage will not have damaging or destructive implications for the societies and peoples comprising the nations being affected.
> 
> Your opposition, even strong distaste, for any position calling for 'equality and justice' on the international stage is very analogous to the distaste of the slave owner/feudal to any talk of 'equality and justice' that would compromise their 'interests'.
> 
> Couch it however you wish, but what you stand for is no different than what the slave owner and feudal stand/stood for.



Like I have said before, we can agree to disagree here, but I stand by my opinion.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> I don't know. I am not an armchair general.That is why I say, wait for the investigations to conclude.


Again, outside of aliens, sorcerers and wizards, there are a very limited number of possibilities here - you don't need to be a genius to understand and analyze that.



> I would consider even that a muted response considering that 28 of my men were just killed , unprovoked.


What would have been an appropriate response in your view then? And why should the PA/DG ISPR agree with you on how it should have responded?


> You are just seeing ghosts where none exists. You develop a mindset and rationalize everything to revolved around it.


I am not the one coming up with fanciful conspiracies like 'the DG ISPR did not condemn the NATO attack strongly enough so that means some deep, dark conspiracy is afoot'.

If you are going to make nonsensical and unsubstantiated claims like those, then expect to be called out.


----------



## lem34

VCheng said:


> Sure, they might be a few attacks here and there, but that will be about as effective as a bug hitting a windshield. Nobody in NATO is losing sleep over this type of retaliation, I assure you.


 
Oh now you speak for nato too. I was quoting nato press offfice that they said they expect payback from isi in a time of isi's choosing but hey you know better about nato than their offficial reps


----------



## VCheng

iPhone said:


> Nationalistic zealots? Patriotic people? You're calling them out? Which country doesn't have those? Look at indian trolls runnig around, nationalistic zealots and westerns too, Solomon something and then countless others in the western society. You don't have any problem with them do you? After all they fall in the same category as those who celebrated Mr. taseer's death. The delusional ones who can't see the truth.



The big difference is that Pakistan is sinking due to these blinded fools, while India is rising.


----------



## iPhone

VCheng said:


> So how is this relevant to the present thread?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> You may agree, but to a pointless rant irrelevant to the thread.


Oh its a irrelevant rant now? That's you diversion tactics? Where you get caught out, its a rant and off topic. Like you been making any relevant and on topic posts.

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## VelocuR

Please change title this thread to *'VCheng arguments with all Pakistanis 24 hours/3 days'* 


This thread is nothing about the 28 Pakistanis soldiers by NATO provoked actions... Too many off-topics and unnecessary personal attacks. Pakistan completely loss sense and heavy emotional.

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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> Oh now you speak for nato too. I was quoting nato press offfice that they said they expect payback from isi in a time of isi's choosing but hey you know better about nato than their offficial reps



I wear many hats. 

---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 PM ----------




RaptorRX707 said:


> ............................. Pakistan completely loss sense and heavy emotional.



I understand that.

It is high time we do not fall for emotionalism yet again, but learn to THINK for once.


----------



## lem34

VCheng said:


> So how is this relevant to the present thread?
> 
> 
> 
> You may agree, but to a pointless rant irrelevant to the thread.




My dear clever "please recognise my talent" wannabe its there to undermine what you say about the thread. hope that clears it up for you


----------



## iPhone

VCheng said:


> The big difference is that Pakistan is sinking due to these blinded fools, while India is rising.



Pakistan isn't sinking due to patriotic people, its the lack of patriotic people that Pakistan isn't rising.

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## VCheng

iPhone said:


> Oh its a irrelevant rant now? That's you diversion tactics? Where you get caught out, its a rant and off topic. Like you been making any relevant and on topic posts.



Yes, it was a rant directed against me, and entirely irrelevant.

No diversions, I am still here, aren't I?


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Thank you for the admission; it is appreciated.
> 
> On the other hand, I _am _fair and impartial and will continue to be so!



You are deliberately being disingenuous, & you know it. It's been revealed by not just me, but many other members on this forum. Now, I don't want to drag this futile conversation on further, so let me conclude in spirit with a comment of yours:



VCheng said:


> Ever consider the possibility that the rest of the world may actually be CORRECT and Pakistan is in the WRONG?



Did Mr Cheng ever consider the possibility that the rest of the members on this forum may be correct, & Mr Cheng might be wrong?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The big difference is that Pakistan is sinking due to these blinded fools, while India is rising.


Yet more distorted and flawed analysis - much of what the nationalists would want implemented in terms of foreign policy is not being implemented by the current Zardari led PPP government.

It is in fact because of the current so called 'anti-establishment' political players that Pakistan continues to struggle to implement much needed reforms to redirect the direction of the country. The Army's influence on foreign policy is not the reason for poor governance and corruption on the domestic side.

Again, there are existing threads for this, and these arguments have been made already - read through those threads and respond there.

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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> My dear clever "please recognise my talent" wannabe its there to undermine what you say about the thread. hope that clears it up for you



Undermine me all you want! 



iPhone said:


> Pakistan isn't sinking due to patriotic people, its the lack of patriotic people that Pakistan isn't rising.



Pakistan is sinking due to blinded fools is what I said.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Like I have said before, we can agree to disagree here, but I stand by my opinion.


Stand by your opinion all you want - it is an unjustified and morally bankrupt position.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Pakistan is sinking due to blinded fools is what I said.



What does this have to do with the thread now?


----------



## lem34

bilalhaider said:


> How are these posts relevant to the present thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Along with most of your posts on this thread?



Too right I think the guy has a serious need for attention maybe he was ignored as a kid?? its all about me me me me me me


----------



## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> ................................
> Did Mr Cheng ever consider the possibility that the rest of the members on this forum may be correct, & Mr Cheng might be wrong?



Actually yes, I did consider that possibility.

However, unfolding events will prove me right still. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ........................
> 
> Again, there are existing threads for this, and these arguments have been made already - read through those threads and respond there.



Surely I will respond there too, but all in good time Sir, all in good time.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bilalhaider said:


> Did Mr Cheng ever consider the possibility that the rest of the members on this forum may be correct, & Mr Cheng might be wrong?


Sir, 'ad populum' arguments and 'established facts' and what not only apply when they can be used to excuse US/Western atrocities and bash Pakistan.


----------



## 53fd

Aryan_B said:


> Too right I think the guy has a serious need for attention maybe he was ignored as a kid?? its all about me me me me me me



But you have to give him credit, regret for the loss of innocent Pakistani lives is dripping from his posts.

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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Again, outside of aliens, sorcerers and wizards, there are a very limited number of possibilities here - you don't need to be a genius to understand and analyze that.



Stranger things have happened. As one poster previously said it could have been a third party that wanted to drive a wedge between the two.

Again I repeat what seems perfectly logical to you over here might not be so in the real world. Let's just wait for the investigations to conclude.




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What would have been an appropriate response in your view then? And why should the PA/DG ISPR agree with you on how it should have responded?



I would have considered moving some extra brigades, raising the alert level of PAF or something of that sort as a appropriate response. Even arty shelling some Afghan/NATO border posts on the other side.

DG ISPR need not agree with me and this is why I consider this a muted response.

Let's agree to disagree over this.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I am not the one coming up with fanciful conspiracies like 'the DG ISPR did not condemn the NATO attack strongly enough so that means some deep, dark conspiracy is afoot'.
> 
> If you are going to make nonsensical and unsubstantiated claims like those, then expect to be called out.


 
We have seen more conspiracies like Pak Administration condemning Drones outwardly, specifically for "public consumption" and then agreeing to it in private.

You and me can argue all day long over what is wrong and right, what is logical and illogical but what happens in the top echelons is a whole different ball game. There is no use second-guessing that.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Stand by your opinion all you want - it is an unjustified and morally bankrupt position.



But it is *reality*, is it not, no matter how unjustified you feel it to be?

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## lem34

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ...which is irrelevant to the point being made - that you are being dishonest when you claim to have been 'neutral' in the RD issue, and claim to have only argued that 'the facts be established' - you quite clearly argued in favor of the official US position, and not for any objective or neutral 'let the facts be established' position.




dishonest means and includes liar as well another american tradition that cheng has got hold of


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Actually yes, I did consider that possibility.
> 
> However, unfolding events will prove me right still.



When they prove you right, you can talk about it then. Please post less off-topic conjecture & more facts related to the specific incident mentioned in this thread.


----------



## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> When they prove you right, you can talk about it then. Please post less off-topic conjecture & more facts related to the specific incident mentioned in this thread.



Okay, so when the NATO supply routes open in a few weeks, would that be enough of a period to mourn the loss of these 28 martyrs?


----------



## lem34

VCheng said:


> Undermine me all you want!
> 
> .



You flatter yourself you manage to do it quite well in your contradictions


----------



## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> You flatter yourself you manage to do it quite well in your contradictions



Does that mean you give up? 

===================

On topic:

Has a national period of mourning been considered as an appropriate idea?


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Okay, *so when the NATO supply routes open in a few weeks,* would that be enough of a period to mourn the loss of these 28 martyrs?



*Yes, you've mentioned that many times throughout this thread already.* You don't need to keep reverberating it, especially when this is just your opinion & not based on any facts. When that happens, you can talk about it. We don't want to make this thread full of conjecture.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> But it is *reality*, is it not, no matter how unjustified you feel it to be?


Slavery was also a 'reality' at one point, with very, very strong government and business interests worldwide supporting it - that does not make support for it any less unethical, and morally depraved.

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Yes, you've mentioned that many times throughout this thread already. You don't need to keep reverberating it, especially when this is just your opinion & not based on any facts.



Just as I said RD would be released?

Truth does hurt!

It would be appropriate to declare ten days of national mourning; after all, it is Muharram too and this is a national tragedy.


----------



## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> *Yes, you've mentioned that many times throughout this thread already.* You don't need to keep reverberating it, especially when this is just your opinion &* not based on any facts.* When that happens, you can talk about it. We don't want to make this thread full of conjecture.



It is based on past events where routes were closed for week or so before being re-opened.


----------



## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Slavery was also a 'reality' at one point, .............



NEWSFLASH: Slavery is STILL a reality.

=========================================

Are there any updates on the Pakistani side of the investigation? I assume there is one, right?


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Just as I said RD would be released?
> 
> Truth does hurt!
> 
> It would be appropriate to declare ten days of national mourning; after all, it is Muharram too and this is a national tragedy.



Again, you were calling out on others for making off-topic posts, & when we closed the RD chapter, you want to bring it up again. You've been proven wrong on your claim of RD being a diplomat by the Pakistan FO, yet you want to derail this thread. You are deliberately being disingenuous, & you know it.

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Again, you were calling out on others for making off-topic posts, & when we closed the RD chapter, you want to bring it up again. You've been proven wrong on your claim of RD being a diplomat by the Pakistan FO, yet you want to derail this thread.



Please read my post again; it was on topic:

*It would be appropriate to declare ten days of national mourning; after all, it is Muharram too and this is a national tragedy.*


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Please read my post again; it was on topic:
> 
> *It would be appropriate to declare ten days of national mourning; after all, it is Muharram too and this is a national tragedy.*



This has nothing to do with the thread "_NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack_". Post your post somewhere else (current events or national issues), this is not the right thread.


----------



## uswrld

it might be a national tragedy but it means nothing for our extended COAS, core commanders approved by Washington, and our Democratic government, and Mr. DEMOCRACY saver


----------



## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> This has nothing to do with the thread "_NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack_". Post your post somewhere else (on Muharram), this is not the right thread.



National mourning for the fallen soldiers is entirely appropriate; please do NOT disrespect the brave soldiers selfless sacrifice.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> National mourning for the fallen soldiers is entirely appropriate; please do NOT disrespect the brave soldiers selfless sacrifice.



Calling for ten days of national mourning in Muharram comes under current events & social issues, or the member's club; not on this thread. Yes, I am being disrespectful to the dead, whereas you are posting posts like these:



VCheng said:


> So how is this relevant to the present thread?






VCheng said:


> Good points!
> 
> Always glad to help!





VCheng said:


> You are correct!
> 
> I fear this patriot for sure!





VCheng said:


> My matters are between Allah and me, and I fear no man on Earth. Do what you will.





VCheng said:


> My tongue is mine to use, as is yours for you.
> 
> 
> 
> That soldiers DIE in the line of DUTY is a FACT.
> 
> 
> Your continued hysterics and wailing like little girls dishonors them more than my calm, respectful words ever will.





VCheng said:


> So why have you collected so many of them in Pindi and Islamabad?





VCheng said:


> Hey, I already have a shrink; I don't need you as another one!





VCheng said:


> No Sir: The moral depravity of the system that you are supporting is clear. You merely misdirect that ire at me.


----------



## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Calling for ten days of national mourning in Muharram comes under current events & social issues, or the member's club; not on this thread.




Fancy yourself a Mod eh? 

A national period of mourning for the 28 brave fallen selfless soldiers, THAT ARE THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD, would be a fitting tribute to their sacrifice to protect the nation.

Do you have a problem with that?

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

Another appropriate idea would be a national fund raising drive to help the families of the fallen soldiers, specially the baby girl whose picture was posted above.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Fancy yourself a Mod eh?
> 
> A national period of mourning for the 28 brave fallen selfless soldiers, THAT ARE THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD, would be a fitting tribute to their sacrifice to protect the nation.
> 
> Do you have a problem with that?



The topic of the thread is _"NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack"_, not Muharram. This thread is meant for specific updates on that front. If you really want to respect the deaths of our soldiers by having a ten day mourning period for Muharram, create a separate thread. This is not the thread for doing that. This thread is meant for specific updates on "_NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack_" in terms of NATO/Pakistan's position on this incident. 

Am I clear enough for you?

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> The topic of the thread is _"NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack"_, not Muharram. This thread is meant for specific updates on that front. If you really want to respect the deaths of our soldiers by having a ten day mourning period for Muharram, create a separate thread. This is not the thread for doing that. This thread is meant for specific updates on "NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack". Am I clear enough for you?



Let me be clear:

It would be a befitting tribute to the fallen soldiers to have a national period of mourning in their honor, no matter what month it is.

Get it?


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Let me be clear:
> 
> It would be a befitting tribute to the fallen soldiers to have a national period of mourning in their honor, no matter what month it is.
> 
> Get it?



Sure. This is not the thread though. Create a separate thread. This thread is meant for specific updates from the NATO/Pakistan position with respect to _NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack_. Got it?


----------



## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Sure. This is not the thread though. Create a separate thread. This thread is meant for specific updates from the NATO/Pakistan position with respect to _NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack_. Got it?



Yes, so that is why I am hoping there is an update to the investigation from the Pakistan side too.

Do you have anything in that regard perhaps, to stay on topic?


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Yes, so that is why I am hoping there is an update to the investigation from the Pakistan side too.
> 
> Do you have anything in that regard perhaps, to stay on topic?



Phew. It was getting a bit tiring with all your off-topic trollish posts. 

Here is a statement coming out from Pakistan:



> *NATO supply stopped permanently:*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Interior Minister Rehman Malik on Sunday said that the supply of NATO has not been suspended rather it has been stopped permanently. Talking to reporters at National Crisis Management Cell of Ministry of Interior, he strongly condemned the NATO attack on Pakistani forces.
> 
> &#8220;NATO force should respect feelings of Pakistani nation.&#8221; He said the nation and the government were aggrieved on the death of 24 officials of Pakistani security forces in the wake of NATO aggression on Salala post in Mohmand Agency. He said the decisions of the Defence Cabinet Committee (DCC) on the NATO forces attack inside Pakistan would be implemented in letter and spirit. &#8220;The decisions of the DCC are final and would be implemented,&#8221; he added.
> 
> The minister said that NATO containers, which have been stopped, would not be allowed to cross the Pak-Afghan border. Malik said that the democratic government of Pakistan would not take dictation from anyone. Referring to security arrangements for Muharram, he said the security arrangements for the month of Muharram have been completed and foolproof security would be ensured across the country to maintain the sanctity of the holy month. He informed that the Rangers and police have been deployed in sensitive areas of Punjab, while the Army would maintain peace and order in Sindh during Muharram, adding that the Sindh police have been given extra powers to maintain law and order in the province. app



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Phew. It was getting a bit tiring with all your off-topic trollish posts.
> 
> Here is a statement coming out from Pakistan:
> 
> 
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



So now we are to regard Rahman Malik as credible? 

"Permanent" means a few weeks at the most.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> So now we are to regard Rahman Malik as credible?



Well, we'll see what happens later. You've speculated on this issue before on this thread, so let's wait to see how things unfold.

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## Agni5000

Kabul, Western Officials Say NATO and Afghan Forces Came Under Fire Before Deadly Attack; Relations Further Imperiled

Airstrike Ravages U.S.-Pakistan Ties - WSJ.com


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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Well, we'll see what happens later. You've speculated on this issue before on this thread, so let's wait to see how things unfold.



Sure, let me go say special prayers for the fallen, and get a good night's sleep.

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## American Pakistani



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## pakdefender

US/NATO Pakistan relations will go from bad to to worse from here on , which is good for Pakistan since we need a clean break from these people , they have caused enough death and destruction in our country.

Hope that the blood of our martyrs is avenged and not just for the 28 who fell in this attack but for every Pakistani death that these people have cused for the whole of the past 10 years!!!


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## SMC

Agni5000 said:


> Kabul, Western Officials Say NATO and Afghan Forces Came Under Fire Before Deadly Attack; Relations Further Imperiled
> 
> Airstrike Ravages U.S.-Pakistan Ties - WSJ.com



We've been over this several times now. Ground troops couldn't have known where fire was coming from that late at night, from kilometers away. The maps of all military outposts are exchanged, yet they chose to target the checkpost.

These guys are basically lying to save their ***. Ground reality is different.

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## Roybot

This is definitely not an accident. It was a well planned attack. All those media reports about Pakistan playing double game with America couple of weeks before this incident is not a mere coincidence. They created the public opinion and then went in. I mean according to a recent poll more than 50% of Americans want America to bomb Pakistan!

========================================================================
Couple of things comes to mind,

If the airstrike went on for two hours,

- First why didn't Pakistani forces call in Air support of its own

-Second why didn't Pakistan Army get in touch with NATO straight away while the attack was on, to inform the NATO forces that they were infact attacking a Pakistani Army post. I mean one phone call, thats all that was needed.
========================================================================
It could mean couple of things,

-The airstrike didn't go on for 2 hours as being reported by Pakistani side.

-or NATO was after something big(HVT) and were willing to take the risk of getting 1/3rd of their supplies choked in order to achieve that target.

========================================================================

Just my 2 cent hypothesis.


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## Agni5000

SMC said:


> We've been over this several times now. Ground troops couldn't have known where fire was coming from that late at night, from kilometers away. The maps of all military outposts are exchanged, yet they chose to target the checkpost.
> 
> These guys are basically lying to save their ***. Ground reality is different.



Helicopter has night vision, they might have seen it coming from pak army post so they fired back.


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## Zarvan

Pakistan Army should hit back with all of its weapons other wise it is hate read with in Army against its leadership this can be complete disaster for the Army


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## President Camacho

Roybot said:


> This is definitely not an accident. It was a well planned attack. All those media reports about Pakistan playing double game with America couple of weeks before this incident is not a mere coincidence. They created the public opinion and then went in. I mean according to a recent poll more than 50% of Americans want America to bomb Pakistan!
> 
> ========================================================================
> Couple of things comes to mind,
> 
> If the airstrike went on for two hours,
> 
> - First why didn't Pakistani forces call in Air support of its own
> 
> -Second why didn't Pakistan Army get in touch with NATO straight away while the attack was on, to inform the NATO forces that they were infact attacking a Pakistani Army post. I mean one phone call, thats all that was needed.
> ========================================================================
> It could mean couple of things,
> 
> -The airstrike didn't go on for 2 hours as being reported by Pakistani side.
> 
> -or NATO was after something big(HVT) and were willing to take the risk of getting 1/3rd of their supplies choked in order to achieve that target.
> 
> ========================================================================
> 
> Just my 2 cent hypothesis.



Per the reports of the 'anonymous' sources...

Afghan soldiers were the first ones that got into firefight with PA troops... each claim they were in their own territory, although Pakistani claim sounds more solid because they were deep inside - 1-2 KM. Afghan troops called in NATO reinforcement, probably presuming that they were ambushed by Taliban. NATO came in to give a blunt response to the "Taliban" fighters. The firefight lasted for a little more than an hour. It has not yet been cleared for precisely how long the choppers remained engaged in the fight.

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## SMC

Agni5000 said:


> Helicopter has night vision, they might have seen it coming from pak army post so they fired back.



The ground troops pointed out where the fire was coming from, that too 2.5 km inside Pakistan.

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## 53fd

President Camacho said:


> Per the reports of the 'anonymous' sources...
> 
> Afghan soldiers were the first ones that got into firefight with PA troops... each claim they were in their own territory, although Pakistani claim sounds more solid because they were deep inside - 1-2 KM. Afghan troops called in NATO reinforcement, probably presuming that they were ambushed by Taliban. NATO came in to give a blunt response to the "Taliban" fighters. The firefight lasted for a little more than an hour. It has not yet been cleared for precisely how long the choppers remained engaged in the fight.



It was 2.5km (1.5 miles) inside Pakistani territory, not 1-2 km. There are two distinct claims coming out of Afghanistan right now: one says there was a *hot pursuit* of terrorists in Eastern Afghanistan by the ANA assisted by the coalition forces, & with the poorly marked border, they accidentally crossed the border, & the Pakistani soldiers were killed accidentally. 

The other claims says that there was fire from the Pakistani soldiers first close to the border, & the Afghan Forces thought it was coming from the terrorists. So they asked the NATO helicopters to join in on the attack. This is their claim of firing in *defense*. The Afghan Forces could not have known where the fire was coming from to Afghanistan 2.5km into Pakistan. 

The fact of the matter is that there is no consistency in the NATO account*s*, there cannot be firing into Afghanistan 2.5 km inside Pakistani territory. The NATO helicopters did not attack one, but two Pakistani outposts in located in separate locations. Whatever lies NATO makes cannot be reconciled, because the attacks took place 2.5km inside Pakistan, not a small distance by any chance. The poor marking of the border cannot be used as an excuse either.

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## waraich66

It is not Pakistans war, We should declare it and block all land routes and air bases for NATO .

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## Patriot

President Camacho said:


> Per the reports of the 'anonymous' sources...
> 
> Afghan soldiers were the first ones that got into firefight with PA troops... each claim they were in their own territory, although Pakistani claim sounds more solid because they were deep inside - 1-2 KM. Afghan troops called in NATO reinforcement, probably presuming that they were ambushed by Taliban. NATO came in to give a blunt response to the "Taliban" fighters. The firefight lasted for a little more than an hour. It has not yet been cleared for precisely how long the choppers remained engaged in the fight.


I also suspect that Afghan Intel and Armed Forces could be behind this however i doubt that NATO has given them such a free hand that they can call in air strikes whenever they want without verification of targets by US Armed Forces Personnel.If indeed Afghan Intel and Armed Force is behind this then it would not be hard to pay them back in the same coin.

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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> Yes, it was a rant directed against me, and entirely irrelevant.
> 
> No diversions, I am still here, aren't I?



It was an accurate observation about you for which you got caught off guard.

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## pakistanitarzan

bhasinusc said:


> Being an Indian I don't know if I should butt in in the conversation but I just feel Pakistan should do the following:
> 
> 1. Realize that America is out for a war with Pakistan. I have no doubt about it. America is penetrated by Indian and Israeli advisers and they want war with Pakistan. Probably they are after your nukes.......Pakistan should realize this and prepare for a war.
> 
> 2. Right now Pakistan should ask China and join in this war against America. If China guarantees help to Pakistan then America cannot do anything to Pakistan.


 
As much as I would hate to say this and please don't question my love for Pakistan but if things remain the way they are (current leadership, laziness of COAS etc), Pakistan will die a very slow death (Nauzubillah)

Pakistan Zindabaad!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> NEWSFLASH: Slavery is STILL a reality.


... and those who suffer from it should merely 'accept the ground realities' and 'EARN their freedom, rather than DEMAND it'.

Again, you can be be as snide and flippant as you wish, but as pointed out a while back, the positions you support and promote are unethical, immoral and designed to weaken and perhaps even destroy those who challenge them.


> Are there any updates on the Pakistani side of the investigation? I assume there is one, right?


The statements from the PA/ISPR have made clear Pakistan's position on the issue, and the official position is supported by eyewitness accounts of wounded survivors from the NATO attack.

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## Quasar

My condolences to my pakistani brothers.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> It was 2.5km (1.5 miles) inside Pakistani territory, not 1-2 km. There are two distinct claims coming out of Afghanistan right now: one says there was a *hot pursuit* of terrorists in Eastern Afghanistan by the ANA & the coalition forces, & with the poorly marked border, they accidentally crossed the border, & the Pakistani soldiers were killed accidentally.
> 
> The other claims says that there was fire from the Pakistani soldiers first close to the border, & the Afghan Forces thought it was coming from the terrorists. So they asked the NATO helicopters to join in on the attack. This is their claim of firing in *defense*. The Afghan Forces could not have known where the fire was coming from to Afghanistan 2.5km into Pakistan.



Both the accounts need not be self-contradictory. In fact both taken together make a logical scenario. If you think about it & willing to accept it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Agni5000 said:


> Kabul, Western Officials Say NATO and Afghan Forces Came Under Fire Before Deadly Attack; Relations Further Imperiled
> 
> Airstrike Ravages U.S.-Pakistan Ties - WSJ.com


It has already been argued in the past several pages - the 'self defence under Pakistani fire' claim does not add up given the location of the base as reported in some accounts (2.5km inside Pakistan), claims of 'gunfire' (which would not be possible from 2.5KM away), claims of 'Commandos on the ground calling in air strikes', which would indicate incompetence on the part of NATO since the coordinates of the base were known to NATO and the proper procedure should have been contacting Pakistani authorities to clear confusion if gunfire was indeed coming from the Pakistani base.

There is nothing so far that suggests NATO was not completely at fault here.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

they were fast asleep out in the open; no such fire came from Pakistani side.....it was an unwarranted act and now if they dont understand why there is OUTRAGE in Pakistan, then they are not just blind but they are also dangerously STUPID

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Both the accounts need not be self-contradictory. If you think about it.



One said there was an on-going operation against the militants in Eastern Afghanistan, in which coalition forces were assisting the ANA, & with the poorly marked border, the helicopters crossed 2.5km into Pakistani territory, & attacked a Pakistani outpost. This claim was their 'hot pursuit' one. 

The other claim was that there was firing from 2.5km inside Pakistani territory, the ANA asked the coalition forces to reign in, & they attacked 2 Pakistani outposts. This claim is shooting in 'defense' one.

Both of them are inherently contradictory, & both of them are implausible scenarios.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Agni5000 said:


> Helicopter has night vision, they might have seen it coming from pak army post so they fired back.


That is not the account your own source (WSJ) details - they quote Afghan officials as claiming that the troops on the ground called in airstrikes - SMC's point remains valid.

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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It has already been argued in the past several pages - the 'self defence under Pakistani fire' claim does not add up given the location of the base as reported in some accounts (2.5km inside Pakistan), claims of 'gunfire' (which would not be possible from 2.5KM away), claims of 'Commandos on the ground calling in air strikes', which would indicate incompetence on the part of NATO since the coordinates of the base were known to NATO and the proper procedure should have been contacting Pakistani authorities to clear confusion if gunfire was indeed coming from the Pakistani base.
> 
> There is nothing so far that suggests NATO was not completely at fault here.



When you are facing gunfire ,directed at you, you do no stop to think if that is friend or foe. Your reflex is shoot back and if not able to match the firepower call for re-inforcements.

---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> One said there was an on-going operation in Eastern Afghanistan, in which coalition forces were assisting the ANA, & with the poorly marked border, the helicopters crossed 2.5km into Pakistani territory, & attacked a Pakistani outpost. This claim was their 'hot pursuit' one.
> 
> The other claim was that there was firing from 2.5km inside Pakistani territory, the ANA asked the coalition forces to reign in, & they attacked 2 Pakistani outposts. This claim is shooting in 'defense' one.
> 
> Both of them are inherently contradictory, & both of them are implausible scenarios.


 

They are not contradictory if in case the Pakistani soldiers were giving covering fire for the running Afghan Taliban who were pursued by the Afghan/NATO troops. That would satisfy both 'accounts' of hot pursuit and self-defence.

Ofcourse you have to accept this is one possible scenario.Infact it can be the most plausible scenario.

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## Roybot

I for one find it hard to buy that this was an accident or a mistake.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> They are not contradictory if in case the Pakistani soldiers were giving covering fire for the running Afghan Taliban who were pursued by the Afghan/NATO troops. That would satisfy both 'accounts' of hot pursuit and self-defence.



There has been no accusation made by anyone that Pakistani soldiers were giving covering fire for the Taliban to infiltrate into Afghanistan. The area was free from militants from the Pakistani side. There has been no suggestion made of this scenario. And the first scenario (hot pursuit) talks about the militants on the Afghan side of the border, not Pakistan. The second scenario (defense) talks about firing from the Pakistani side, but it is not possible that firing from 2.5km inside Pakistan could hit Afghanistan.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> There has been no accusation made by anyone that Pakistani soldiers were giving covering fire for the Taliban to infiltrate into Afghanistan. The area was free from militants from the Pakistani side.



From Pakistani side it was free. But not from Afghan side. The Taliban were escaping from Afghan side with the NATO in hot pursuit.

No open accusation has *yet* been made. But already sounds of 'self-defence' are making rounds and I guess this will be the final conclusion that will be given.


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## SMC

Bhairava said:


> When you are facing gunfire ,directed at you, you do no stop to think if that is friend or foe. Your reflex is shoot back and if not able to match the firepower call for re-inforcements.


 No you don't. That's not how wars work. Secondly, you can't fire on someone from 2.5km away. Do you know what the range of even the most powerful guns are?



> They are not contradictory if in case the Pakistani soldiers were giving covering fire for the running Afghan Taliban who were pursued by the Afghan/NATO troops. That would satisfy both 'accounts' of hot pursuit and self-defence.
> 
> Ofcourse you have to accept this is one possible scenario.Infact it can be the most plausible scenario.



I'll show you the obvious contradiction in the accounts: the reason why helicopters were called. One account says that the helicopters were called in because Afghan troops were being fired upon. The other says the helicopters were involved in the operation from the go.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> When you are facing gunfire ,directed at you, you do no stop to think if that is friend or foe. Your reflex is shoot back and if not able to match the firepower call for re-inforcements.


Again, this has been argued already, and some of the arguments have been repeated already above by SMC and Bilalhaider.

Once again, given similar instances in the past, coordinates of all posts have been exchanged several times and their are PA liaison officers deployed at various ISAF bases for purposes of communication and coordination. 

Since we have heard of no injuries even from NATO troops allegedly conducting these ops and coming 'under fire', the alleged 'gunfire' was not serious or accurate, and the response both disproportionate and inaccurate. These situations are precisely why PA liaisons are present and communication lines established. 

And this does not even take into account the fact that if the base was 2.5KM inside Pakistani territory, then NATO forces would have to have been inside Pakistani territory to be within the range of gunfire from the Pakistani base, which means that even if Pakistani forces fired first, they were justified in doing so against forces violating Pakistani territory.

Therefore, no matter what the excuse, NATO is completely at fault here.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> From Pakistani side it was free. But not from Afghan side. The Taliban were escaping from Afghan side with the NATO in hot pursuit.
> 
> No open accusation has *yet* been made. But already sounds of 'self-defence' are making rounds and I guess this will be the final conclusion that will be given.



Please read my full post. This is my full post. Both the claims are contradictory: 



bilalhaider said:


> There has been no accusation made by anyone that Pakistani soldiers were giving covering fire for the Taliban to infiltrate into Afghanistan. The area was free from militants from the Pakistani side. There has been no suggestion made of this scenario. And the first scenario (hot pursuit) talks about the militants on the Afghan side of the border, not Pakistan. The second scenario (defense) talks about firing from the Pakistani side, but it is not possible that firing from 2.5km inside Pakistan could hit Afghanistan.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> The second scenario (defense) talks about firing from the Pakistani side, but it is not possible that firing from 2.5km inside Pakistan could hit Afghanistan.


 
It's common knowledge that the border is poorly demarcated or not at all. So its anybody's guess where the NATO/ANA soldiers were when the firing started. They need not have been 2.5 km from the Pak posts.

They could have well been in Pakistan territory in *'hot pursuit'* of the escaping militants when Pakistani troops sensing infiltrators shot back at them causing them to call in air strikes in *'self-defence*'.

You can then fault them for crossing over the border, but then you yourself acknowledge that the border is poorly de-marcated.



---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> Please read my full post. This is my full post. Both the claims are contradictory:



They are not.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> It's common knowledge that the border is poorly demarcated or not at all. So its anybody's guess where the NATO/ANA soldiers were when the firing started.
> 
> They ccould have well been in Pakistan territory in 'hot pursuit' when Pakistani troops sensing infiltrators shot back at them causing them to call in air strikes as 'self-defence'.



If the border is poorly demarcated, & the NATO helicopters accidentally crossed the border *2.5km* (not a small distance) into Pakistani territory when they were assisting the Afghan soldiers, why were there no Afghan soldiers found on the Pakistani side of the border for this operation? If the Afghan soldiers, with their own human eyes could figure out where the border was, but the NATO helicopters with night vision could not, there is something wrong here.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, a Pakistani military spokesman, stopped short of that characterization, but he said the strike was inexplicable. In an interview, he said the two border posts are clearly marked and their locations are known to Afghan and coalition forces. No militant or military firing preceded the NATO assault, nor did coalition troops inform Pakistan that they were receiving fire from the Pakistani side, as is procedure, Abbas said.

Once the strike began, Abbas said, soldiers notified their commanders in the nearby city of Peshawar, who told officials at military headquarters in Rawalpindi, who then informed two trilateral border coordination centers located at the Torkham pass and the border of Pakistans North Waziristan region.

But somehow it continued, Abbas said of the firing. Our side believes there is no possibility of confusion. The post location is not where a Taliban would take position.*

NATO airstrike strains U.S.-Pakistan relations - The Washington Post

=============

VC and others - the DG ISPR appears to have provided a pretty detailed summary of the events that took place.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> It's common knowledge that the border is poorly demarcated or not at all. So its anybody's guess where the NATO/ANA soldiers were when the firing started. They need not have been 2.5 km from the Pak posts.
> 
> They could have well been in Pakistan territory in *'hot pursuit'* of the escaping militants when Pakistani troops sensing infiltrators shot back at them causing them to call in air strikes in *'self-defence*'.
> 
> You can then fault them for crossing over the border, but then you yourself acknowledge that the border is poorly de-marcated.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> They are not.


Hot pursuit into Pakistani territory is not sanctioned under the UNSC resolutions AFAIK, and Pakistan has not allowed it officially, which makes any argument based on 'hot pursuit' the fault of NATO.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> If the border is poorly demarcated, & the NATO helicopters accidentally crossed the border 2.5km (not a small distance) into Pakistani territory when they were assisting the Afghan soldiers, why were there no Afghan soldiers found on the Pakistani side of the border for this operation? If the Afghan soldiers, with their own human eyes could figure out where the border was, but the NATO helicopters with night vision could not, there is something wrong here.


 
No one knows which troops were involved or whether the Afghan/NATO soldiers crossed into Pak territory or not.

I just gave you one plausible scenario when the Pak troops mistook the NATO/ANA troops as infiltrators and fired at them causing the NATO/ANA troops to call for air support.

Also the Pak troops could have intentionally given cover fire for the escaping militants with NATO/Afghan soldiers in hot pursuit causing them to call in for air support.

They are all completely plausible scenarios.

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 AM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Hot pursuit into Pakistani territory is not sanctioned under the UNSC resolutions AFAIK, and Pakistan has not allowed it officially, which makes any argument based on 'hot pursuit' the fault of NATO.



But don't you guys say that the Pak-Afghan border is very poorly demarcated (in some places not even de-marcated). So I guess Afghan/NATO troops crossing over accidentally in 'hot pursuit' is not such a grave crime.

As for the word 'officially', you never know. Remember the Drones, Shamsi airbase ?


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> No one knows which troops were involved or whether the Afghan/NATO soldiers crossed into Pak territory or not.
> 
> I just gave you one plausible scenario when the Pak troops mistook the NATO/ANA troops as infiltrators and fired at them causing the NATO/ANA troops to call for air support.
> 
> Also the Pak troops could have intentionally given cover fire for the escaping militants with NATO/Afghan soldiers in hot pursuit causing them to call in for air support.
> 
> They are all completely plausible scenarios.



No Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory. If the Afghan troops were being assisted in an operation in Eastern Afghanistan by the coalition forces, Afghan troops would have been found on Pakistani territory. That did not happen though. It was only the coalition/NATO helicopters that crossed 2.5km into Pakistan, & attacked two different Pakistani outposts. Contradictory & implausible accounts.

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## AUz

*Pakistan has cut-off NATO supply lines  Permanently.* 


*All supplies stopped at source at Karachi port, both border crossings closed.*

*Source : Ahmed Quraishi.*

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> *No Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory.* If the Afghan troops were being assisted in an operation in Eastern Afghanistan by the coalition forces, Afghan troops would have been found on Pakistani territory. That did not happen though. It was only the coalition/NATO helicopters that crossed 2.5km into Pakistan, & attacked two different Pakistani outposts.



My question - how are you so sure? Were you there ? They could have crossed and gone back once the choppers came.

These are all possible scenarios along with other scenarios Pak members have said all over the thread.

So that is why I said let us wait for the final investigation to get completed.




bilalhaider said:


> Contradictory & implausible accounts.



Perfectly coherent and *one* of the plausible scenarios. Just you wont accept it because it goes against the theory Pak soldiers were attacked 'unprovoked' by NATO.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> My question - how are you so sure? Were you there ?



Pakistani soldiers are deployed at the border outposts, & no Afghan forces entered Pakistani territory. Can you even show me one claim made any where that said Afghan soldiers entered into Pakistani territory in this incident? There was no way Afghan soldiers could have crossed into Pakistani territory, because there would have been/encounter a clash there between Pakistani troops & Afghan troops.

There were no Afghan troops injured or killed in this attack, & there is no account that they were even involved in this incident against the Pakistani outposts. Stop making up stories, & stick with the facts.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> But don't you guys say that the Pak-Afghan border is very poorly demarcated (in some places not even de-marcated). So I guess Afghan/NATO troops crossing over accidentally in 'hot pursuit' is not such a grave crime.
> 
> As for the word 'officially', you never know. Remember the Drones, Shamsi airbase ?


It is a 'grave crime' since the posts themselves are clearly demarcated, and 2.5KM is too large a distance to 'cross accidentally'.

"Officially or unofficially' any raids close to the border and/or Pakistani positions should have been carefully coordinated with Pakistani forces and constant communication with the relevant Pakistani authorities maintained during the military operation by NATO.

Again, NATO has no excuse for its actions.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Pakistani soldiers are deployed at the border outposts, & no Afghan forces entered Pakistani territory.



We, arm-chair generals living in India and US cant be sure of what happened in Mohmand ,on the ground, in the night.

Its entirely possible for Afghan/ISAF troops to be on ground at that time. Just that it has not yet been divulged.



bilalhaider said:


> CThere was no way Afghan soldiers could have crossed into Pakistani territory, because there would have been a clash there between Pakistani troops & Afghan troops.



Maybe there was a clash and the Afghan/ISAF troops called out for air support in 'self defence'.

See , I told you this is entirely possible.

---------- Post added at 10:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 AM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is a 'grave crime' since the posts themselves are clearly demarcated, and 2.5KM is too large a distance to 'cross accidentally'.



In 'hot pursuit' , in the heat of the battle you dont measure distances.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> "Officially or unofficially' any raids close to the border and/or Pakistani positions should have been carefully coordinated with Pakistani forces and constant communication with the relevant Pakistani authorities maintained during the military operation by NATO.



Again the border is very poorly demarcated for them to even know that they had crossed over from Afghanistan into Pakistan.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Again, NATO has no excuse for its actions.


 
In this scenario, they have the excuse of poorly demarcated borders.

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## Agni5000

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is a 'grave crime' since the posts themselves are clearly demarcated, and 2.5KM is too large a distance to 'cross accidentally'.
> 
> "Officially or unofficially' any raids close to the border and/or Pakistani positions should have been carefully coordinated with Pakistani forces and constant communication with the relevant Pakistani authorities maintained during the military operation by NATO.
> 
> Again, NATO has no excuse for its actions.



I think boarder between pak-afg is disputed and not properly demarcated. So it is not wrong to chase some insurgents.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Maybe there was a clash and the Afghan/ISAF troops called out for air support in 'self defence'.
> 
> See , I told you this is entirely possible.



The alleged clash for which air support was called for was between Afghan militants in Eastern Afghanistan (not in Pakistan) & the Afghan forces, not between Pakistani soldiers & Afghan soldiers. 

I'm not going to keep repeating myself again. Please stop making up stories, & if you think there was a clash between Afghan soldiers & Pakistan Border Forces in this incident; or if any Afghan soldiers were found in Pakistan, or if any Afghan soldiers were injured or killed in this incident, please quote appropriate sources. Please don't make up fictional stories.

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## Mav3rick

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, a Pakistani military spokesman, stopped short of that characterization, but he said the strike was inexplicable. In an interview, he said the two border posts are clearly marked and their locations are known to Afghan and coalition forces. No militant or military firing preceded the NATO assault, nor did coalition troops inform Pakistan that they were receiving fire from the Pakistani side, as is procedure, Abbas said.
> 
> Once the strike began, Abbas said, soldiers notified their commanders in the nearby city of Peshawar, who told officials at military headquarters in Rawalpindi, who then informed two trilateral border coordination centers located at the Torkham pass and the border of Pakistans North Waziristan region.
> 
> But somehow it continued, Abbas said of the firing. Our side believes there is no possibility of confusion. The post location is not where a Taliban would take position.*
> 
> NATO airstrike strains U.S.-Pakistan relations - The Washington Post
> 
> =============
> 
> VC and others - the DG ISPR appears to have provided a pretty detailed summary of the events that took place.


 
Is it possible that the post was destroyed to give cover to infiltrators from Afghan side in to Pakistan? I mean we all know that there are many safe houses and training camps set up by in Afghanistan for anti-Pakistan operations.


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> The alleged clash for which air support was called for was between Afghan militants in Eastern Afghanistan (not in Pakistan) & the Afghan forces, not between Pakistani soldiers & Afghan soldiers.



What makes you think that the militants who were being pursued (from Eastern Afg) could not have tried to escape by crossing into Pakistan and the Afghan/NATO troops too crossed over into Pak territory in hot pursuit ?

What is so 'illogical' in this scenario ? It seems perfectly logical.



bilalhaider said:


> I'm not going to keep repeating myself again. Please stop making up stories, & if you think there was a clash between Afghan soldiers & Pakistan Border Forces in this incident; or if any Afghan soldiers were found in Pakistan, or if any Afghan soldiers were injured or killed in this incident, please quote appropriate sources. Please don't make up fictional stories.


 
There is no hard and fast rule that in any clash some one has to die/get injured. There are dozens of clashes on the India-Pak border. Does anyone die everytime ?

This maybe a story, but one of the many possible story just like how NATO willfully killed 28 soldiers is also one of the scenarios.

If you want others to accept that, this also needs to be accepted as one plausible scenario.

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## Mav3rick

Bhairava said:


> No one knows which troops were involved or whether the Afghan/NATO soldiers crossed into Pak territory or not.
> 
> I just gave you one plausible scenario when the Pak troops mistook the NATO/ANA troops as infiltrators and fired at them causing the NATO/ANA troops to call for air support.
> 
> *Also the Pak troops could have intentionally given cover fire for the escaping militants* with NATO/Afghan soldiers in hot pursuit causing them to call in for air support.
> 
> They are all completely plausible scenarios.


 
This would mean that Pakistan is supporting militants. However, as already mentioned by fellow members, there were no fatalities or injuries on the other side which is paramount to the fact that no real pursuit was being conducted which in turn means that the likely scenario is that the post was fired upon for some hidden agenda.

In any case I again wonder why none of our border posts have access to ANZA-MKIII? Aren't our soldiers even allowed to defend themselves? It wouldn't be too hard to shoot down these helos.

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## Bhairava

Mav3rick said:


> This would mean that Pakistan is supporting militants. However, as already mentioned by fellow members, there were no fatalities or injuries on the other side which is paramount to the fact that no real pursuit was being conducted which in turn means that the likely scenario is that the post was fired upon for some hidden agenda.



All clashes need not necessarily entail injuries/deaths.

Clashes on the India-Pak border are an example.


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## Mav3rick

Bhairava said:


> Perfectly coherent and *one* of the plausible scenarios. Just you wont accept it because it goes against the theory Pak soldiers were attacked 'unprovoked' by NATO.


 
The theory that you refer to is a fact, so realistic that 24 Pakistani Soldiers were martyred. And if there was any base or any reason, however small or insignificant, on the NATO side it would have been highlighted and it would have overshadowed the martyrdom of Pakistani soldiers. Ofcourse when one has to imagine things just because he is cursed with hatred, he will come up with all these 'theories'.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> What makes you think that the militants who were being pursued (from Eastern Afg) could not have tried to escape by crossing into Pakistan *and the Afghan/NATO troops too crossed over into Pak territory in hot pursuit ?*



Please support your claims that Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory by quoting any source.


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## Mav3rick

Bhairava said:


> All clashes need not necessarily entail injuries/deaths.
> 
> Clashes on the India-Pak border are an example.


 
So no injuries or fatalities amongst Afghan/ISAF soldiers on the ground and no militants killed, no arms recovered or vehicles destroyed.....what was this armed clash all about, shooting stars??? The only loss was on Pakistani side, goes to tell you that there is something very wrong, perhaps even an individual hate act by the pilot of the Helicopter.

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## Areesh

By the way if anyone of you wants to vent a bit. Here is the twitter account of NATO Secretary General.

Twitter

Jao galiyan do isai.


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## 53fd

Peshwa said:


> &#8216;Pakistan fire may have prompted Nato strike&#8217;
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON: Fire from a Pakistani military outpost into Afghanistan prompted the Nato cross-border air strikes that left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead, a report said Sunday, citing Afghan and Western officials.
> 
> The Wall Street Journal, citing three unnamed Afghan officials and one Western official, said the attack &#8212;which has prompted fury in Islamabad &#8212;was called in to shield Nato and Afghan forces targeting Taliban fighters.
> 
> The fire came from remote outposts in the Mohmand region.
> 
> &#8220;There was firing coming from the position against Afghan army soldiers who requested support and this is what happened,&#8221; an Afghan official in Kabul said on condition of anonymity.
> 
> The official added that the government in Kabul believes the fire came from the Pakistani military base &#8212;and not from insurgents in the area.
> 
> That version was corroborated by two Afghan officials working in the border zone.
> 
> One border police official said Pakistani officials were informed of the Nato operation ahead of time.



Already answered on Posts # 1666, 1676, 1683 & others.


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Please support your claims that Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory by quoting any source.



Did I claim that this was the only plausible scenario for me to prove anything conclusively ?

This is one among the many plausible scenarios and so lets wait for the final report of the investigation.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Did I claim that this was the only plausible scenario for me to prove anything conclusively ?
> 
> This is one among the many plausible scenarios and so lets wait for the final report of the investigation.



This is not a plausible scenario because this did not happen. Not even the 2 NATO accounts correspond to this. There's no point in making up fictional stories that don't correspond to facts on the ground.


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## Bhairava

Mav3rick said:


> So no injuries or fatalities amongst Afghan/ISAF soldiers on the ground and no militants killed, no arms recovered or vehicles destroyed.....what was this armed clash all about, shooting stars??? The only loss was on Pakistani side, goes to tell you that there is something very wrong, perhaps even an individual hate act by the pilot of the Helicopter.


 

There were no injuries on their side because the Apaches were not shooting them.


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## Mav3rick

Agni5000 said:


> NATO saying, Afghan forces saying. This is an open secrete.


 
They also say that Pakistan's participation in this WoT is exceptional. No one with any merit has ever claimed that Pakistan is involved in terrorism or that Pakistan supported terrorists.....what they have said is that certain elements in Pakistan 'may' have sympathies for these fighters.

And please do not push me into an argument of what a terrorist is and what a freedom fighter is!


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> This is not a plausible scenario because this did not happen. Not even the two NATO accounts correspond to this.



No one knows what exactly happened on the dead of the night in Mohmand.

Everything floating around are just 'versions' and this is one such.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> No one knows what exactly happened on the dead of the night in Mohmand.
> 
> Everything floating around are just 'versions' and this is one such.



Pakistan knows exactly what happened, & Major Athar has explained Pakistan's position quite clearly. It corresponds to the facts of the ground. NATO has given both of its accounts, & nothing like you said transpired. There is no evidence to suggest such a situation happened. Please stop making up stories.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> In 'hot pursuit' , in the heat of the battle you dont measure distances.


That is NATO's problem and fault - it is not an excuse for an illegal military operation inside Pakistani territory.



> Again the border is very poorly demarcated for them to even know that they had crossed over from Afghanistan into Pakistan.


Again NATO's fault and problem - while the border might be poorly demarcated, the locations of Pakistani posts have been communicated to NATO multiple times, and there are lines of communication and liaison officers on both sides. NATO would have/should have known that it was conducting operations in the vicinity of Pakistani positions, and therefore should have ensured that it was in constant communication with Pakistani authorities to avoid potential 'friendly fire'.

Therefore this argument does not excuse NATO's actions either.


> In this scenario, they have the excuse of poorly demarcated borders.


See above, not a good excuse. Communication channels exist precisely to avoid these kinds of events.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Pakistan knows exactly what happened, & Major Athar has explained Pakistan's position quite clearly. NATO has given both of its accounts, & nothing like you said transpired. There is no evidence to suggest such a situation happened. Please stop making up stories.



NATO has given enough hints to suggest how it's final report will be. It doesn't take much to figure 2+2 = 4.

Again I stand my my comment, there is no authoritative announcement of what happened exactly on the ground in Mohmand. Everything floating around are versions and this is one such.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> There were no injuries on their side because the Apaches were not shooting them.


Or perhaps no one was shooting them ...

If NATO speculation is true, then 'gunfire' from the insurgents they were tracking would be completely expected - how that translated to 'gunfire from a Pakistani post 2.5KM deep inside Pakistani territory' and a sustained '1 plus hour assault' against two Pakistani posts, remains inexplicable, other than by 'complete incompetence or collusion' by NATO.

---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------




Bhairava said:


> NATO has given enough hints to suggest how it's final report will be. It doesn't take much to figure 2+2 = 4.


There version, based on the alleged 'anonymous sources' has been exposed to be pretty weak on this thread - nothing they have argued so far makes a lot of sense or excuses their actions.

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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is NATO's problem and fault - it is not an excuse for an illegal military operation inside Pakistani territory.
> 
> 
> Again NATO's fault and problem - while the border might be poorly demarcated, the locations of Pakistani posts have been communicated to NATO multiple times, and there are lines of communication and liaison officers on both sides. NATO would have/should have known that it was conducting operations in the vicinity of Pakistani positions, and therefore should have ensured that it was in constant communication with Pakistani authorities to avoid potential 'friendly fire'.
> 
> Therefore this argument does not excuse NATO's actions either.
> 
> See above, not a good excuse. Communication channels exist precisely to avoid these kinds of events.



It could be well be interpreted as Pakistan's fault for not properly demarcating its border. Can such things happen on the India-Pak border for example ?
MOD EDIT: Trolling


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> It could be well be interpreted as Pakistan's fault for not properly demarcating its border. Can such things happen on the India-Pak border for example ?


It is not Pakistan that is refusing to accept the border .... if you want to use 'poor demarcation' as an excuse, go blame the Afghans.


> BTW did we not have posters saying Mumbai was part India's fault for not properly guarding her maritime borders ?


Keep up off topic trolling and see how quickly you get banned.

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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Or perhaps no one was shooting them ...
> 
> If NATO speculation is true, then 'gunfire' from the insurgents they were tracking would be completely expected - how that translated to 'gunfire from a Pakistani post 2.5KM deep inside Pakistani territory' and a sustained '1 plus hour assault' against two Pakistani posts, remains inexplicable, other than by 'complete incompetence or collusion' by NATO.



Or perhaps....

That is why I'm repeatedly saying no one knows what exactly transpired that fateful day for any of us to make conclusive judgements.

Let us just wait for the final report. Or is it too much to ask ?




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There version, based on the alleged 'anonymous sources' has been exposed to be pretty weak on this thread - nothing they have argued so far makes a lot of sense or excuses their actions.


 
On this thread - lol. When did PDF become the final authority on these things. Everything here is just our own version of events. Not necessarily what actually happened on ground.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> NATO has given enough hints to suggest how it's final report will be. It doesn't take much to figure 2+2 = 4.



Yes, it is full of logical fallacies as shown on this thread.



> Again I stand my my comment, there is no authoritative announcement of what happened exactly on the ground in Mohmand. Everything floating around are versions and this is one such.



You're wrong. This is the authoritative announcement of what happened:


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is not Pakistan that is refusing to accept the border .... if you want to use 'poor demarcation' as an excuse, go blame the Afghans.



Ok should have worded it more properly. 'Part' Pakistani, part Afghan problem. ok ?



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Keep up off topic trolling and see how quickly you get banned.


 
I was not trolling. Just giving an analogy where my kind of argument was given.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> I was not trolling. Just giving an analogy where my kind of argument was given.



You are giving analogies that do not have any association with the realities & facts on the ground. I am asking you for a source that states that Afghan troops crossed 2.5kms into Pakistani territory like the NATO helicopters did. Any article would suffice. If you can't produce that, then you are posting off-topic, & that _does_ come under trolling.


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Yes, it is full of logical fallacies as shown on this thread.



Perfectly logical. But just branded 'fallacy' as it goes against the popular narrative.




bilalhaider said:


> You're wrong. This is the authoritative announcement of what happened:


 
I bet you did not watch it. Watch it fully. It fully supports my theory. Without saying as much the gen indicated that this was a strike in self-defence and called in by the Afghan/Coalition forced indulged in operation in the poorly demarcated border region in close vicinity of the posts and that NATO is fully investigating the incident.

---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> You are giving analogies that do not have any association with the realities & facts on the ground. I am asking you for a source that states that Afghan troops crossed 2.5kms into Pakistani territory like the NATO helicopters did. Any article would suffice. If you can't produce that, then you are posting off-topic, & that _does_ come under trolling.



The post was 2.5 km from the border, not the helis. They could have been 1 -1.5 km from the border. And that is a very short distance friend. There is no need for any article. The video you posted would suffice. Just wait to see how the NATO version of events shape up.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Perfectly logical. But just branded 'fallacy' as it goes against the popular narrative.



No, it is against _every_ narrative.



> I bet you did no watch it. Watch it fully. It fully supports my theory. Without saying as much the gen indicated that this was a strike in self-defence and called in by the Afghan/Coalition forced indulged in operation in the poorly demarcated border region in close vicinity of the posts.



I watched it completely. He said that the Afghan & NATO troops were involved* close to the border regions in Eastern Afghanistan, not 2.5kms inside Pakistan*. He did not say Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory. The attacks NATO helicopters did were on two posts 2.5kms inside Pakistani territory, not close to the AfPak border. A poorly demarcated border does not mean you can cross 2.5kms into Pakistani territory. They had been given the locations & co-ordinates of the Pakistani outposts as well by Pakistan, so such an attack cannot be justified in anyway.

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## Mav3rick

Bhairava said:


> There were no injuries on their side because the Apaches were not shooting them.


 
So the choppers were Apaches? Where is the link?

But air support was called in because ISAF/Afghan force was allegedly under severe fire, right? Despite that no loss or life or property on either side? You don't really have to be smart to figure out what's going on.


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## karan.1970

http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/28/pakistan-fire-may-have-prompted-nato-strike-wsj.html

WASHINGTON: Fire from a Pakistani military outpost into Afghanistan prompted the Nato cross-border air strikes that left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead, a report said Sunday, citing Afghan and Western officials.

The Wall Street Journal, citing three unnamed Afghan officials and one Western official, said the attack &#8212;which has prompted fury in Islamabad &#8212;was called in to shield Nato and Afghan forces targeting Taliban fighters.

The fire came from remote outposts in the Mohmand region.

&#8220;There was firing coming from the position against Afghan army soldiers who requested support and this is what happened,&#8221; an Afghan official in Kabul said on condition of anonymity.

*The official added that the government in Kabul believes the fire came from the Pakistani military base &#8212;and not from insurgents in the area.
*
That version was corroborated by two Afghan officials working in the border zone.

*One border police official said Pakistani officials were informed of the Nato operation ahead of time.*
================================================
hmm.. getting murkier by the minute ....

Specially the Red part.. Another possibility emerging is that Pakistan was informed of the operation and tried to disrupt the same by firing on the NATO/Afghan forces resulting in the incident in question.. I guess another 24 hours, as the US gets back to work after the long weekend, will make this a little clearer

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> I watched it completely. He said that the Afghan & NATO troops were involved* close to the border regions in Eastern Afghanistan, not 2.5kms inside Pakistan*. He did not say Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory. The attacks NATO helicopters did were on two posts 2.5kms inside Pakistani territory, not close to the AfPak border. A poorly demarcated border does not mean you can cross 2.5kms into Pakistani territory. They had been given the locations & co-ordinates of the Pakistani outposts as well by Pakistan, so such an attack cannot be justified in anyway.


 
As I said he has left enough hints to suggest how the final report will look like. You are just not willing to accept it. It will closed as a grave and sad incident, but one which was caused by self-defence.

For the record 2.5 kms is not such a great distance.

I gave just one version of the events. Again let's wait for the investigation to complete and the report be submitted. We need not act the judge & jury.

EDIT:- Look up the previous post. Did I not say how this incident will shape up ? It;s just too early.


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## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/28/pakistan-fire-may-have-prompted-nato-strike-wsj.html
> 
> WASHINGTON: Fire from a Pakistani military outpost into Afghanistan prompted the Nato cross-border air strikes that left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead, a report said Sunday, citing Afghan and Western officials.
> 
> The Wall Street Journal, citing three unnamed Afghan officials and one Western official, said the attack &#8212;which has prompted fury in Islamabad &#8212;was called in to shield Nato and Afghan forces targeting Taliban fighters.
> 
> The fire came from remote outposts in the Mohmand region.
> 
> &#8220;There was firing coming from the position against Afghan army soldiers who requested support and this is what happened,&#8221; an Afghan official in Kabul said on condition of anonymity.
> 
> *The official added that the government in Kabul believes the fire came from the Pakistani military base &#8212;and not from insurgents in the area.
> *
> That version was corroborated by two Afghan officials working in the border zone.
> 
> *One border police official said Pakistani officials were informed of the Nato operation ahead of time.*
> ================================================
> hmm.. getting murkier by the minute ....
> 
> Specially the Red part.. Another possibility emerging is that Pakistan was informed of the operation and tried to disrupt the same by firing on the NATO/Afghan forces resulting in the incident in question.. I guess another 24 hours, as the US gets back to work after the long weekend, will make this a little clearer



I am sure that the ISAF/Afghan forces were not at the border, if indeed there was any operation, so if a Pakistani post fires from 2.5 km's inside Pakistan into say 1.5-2.5 km's inside Afghanistan then they must be using morters or some sort of shelling/artillery rounds right? I mean it just couldn't be guns. These must have caused some damage, however insignificant...right? Was there any damage at all on the other side? Any damage at all?


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## 53fd

karan.1970 said:


> http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/28/pakistan-fire-may-have-prompted-nato-strike-wsj.html
> 
> WASHINGTON: Fire from a Pakistani military outpost into Afghanistan prompted the Nato cross-border air strikes that left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead, a report said Sunday, citing Afghan and Western officials.
> 
> The Wall Street Journal, citing three unnamed Afghan officials and one Western official, said the attack &#8212;which has prompted fury in Islamabad &#8212;was called in to shield Nato and Afghan forces targeting Taliban fighters.
> 
> The fire came from remote outposts in the Mohmand region.
> 
> &#8220;There was firing coming from the position against Afghan army soldiers who requested support and this is what happened,&#8221; an Afghan official in Kabul said on condition of anonymity.
> 
> *The official added that the government in Kabul believes the fire came from the Pakistani military base &#8212;and not from insurgents in the area.
> *
> That version was corroborated by two Afghan officials working in the border zone.
> 
> *One border police official said Pakistani officials were informed of the Nato operation ahead of time.*
> ================================================
> hmm.. getting murkier by the minute ....
> 
> Specially the Red part.. Another possibility emerging is that Pakistan was informed of the operation and tried to disrupt the same by firing on the NATO/Afghan forces resulting in the incident in question.. I guess another 24 hours, as the US gets back to work after the long weekend, will make this a little clearer



How could fire come into Afghanistan from Pakistani military forces 2.5kms inside Pakistan territory? In other words, this was an act of 'defense'. And if that was true, Pakistan would not be informed about it. 

The part in red is in collusion with the theory that there was a *hot pursuit* of terrorists in Eastern Afghanistan, where Afghan forces called in coalition forces for air support. 

The first theory is that the attack took place in 'defense', whereas the second theory is that the attack took place in 'hot pursuit' of terrorists in Eastern Afghanistan. Both of them contradictory.

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## -INDIAN-

LOLS lets just refrain from the arguements on Whos fault it is ..*life lost is lost whatever the reason may be*...at the age of modern techs and the Tech which will be in NATOs hands are not bound to misguide the path or where the boundary is...Its all now about how the Pakistani government acts beyond the words...*RIP to thosee who lost lives*


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## Mav3rick

Bhairava said:


> As I said he has left enough hints to suggest how the final report will look like. You are just not willing to accept it. It will closed as a grave and sad incident, but one which was caused by self-defence.
> 
> For the record 2.5 kms is not such a great distance.
> 
> I gave just one version of the events. Again let's wait for the investigation to complete and the report be submitted. We need not act the judge & jury.
> 
> EDIT:- Look up the previous post. Did I not say how this incident will shape up ? It;s just too early.



Are we arguing on what they would say to justify their terrorism or what really happened? Ofcourse no US/NATO/ISAF general would ever admit that they destroyed Pakistani posts and murdered Pakistani soldiers because of some 'not yet known' reasons!


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## Al Bhatti

salmakh84 said:


> Sir you are highly mistaken. Our general and politicians will remain the same corrupt slaves theyalways have been. What u r seeing is temporary to gain voter/ public sympathy. Chor gain sub



In support to you, This was published prior to the latest NATO strike on Pakistan:

November 27, 2011

Corruption and runaway economy

Squandering of Pakistan's resources by Zardari government to win votes will add to nation's woes

Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari may be keeping a brave face but he has clearly had a challenging week. It all began with the replacement of his chosen ambassador to Washington, caught in a controversy over the alleged use of the government's influence for inviting US pressure upon Pakistan's army. The week ended with yet another setback when Pakistan's Supreme Court rejected a plea by the ruling regime to review a major verdict that previously undid a blanket immunity given to politicians and key officials accused of corruption.

In the coming days and weeks, Zardari and his coterie of ruling politicians from the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) are bound to be focused squarely on how best to extricate themselves from the fallout of these recent setbacks. Will it be a court battle or a diplomatic success that will help Pakistan's rulers steer themselves out of their predicament?

Indeed, that may be the question that Zardari and other members of the ruling coterie are asking themselves as they work to stabilise their own positions. Yet, even a half convincing answer to these questions bears little relevance to the monumental set of challenges that Pakistan faces today.

The country is already beginning to be immersed in an election cycle. Across Pakistan, key opposition parties have now begun preparations for gaining support of their constituents ahead of the next elections. In some respects, Pakistan has entered a risk phase in its history, not least due to the country's overall adverse security conditions and the danger of prominent politicians being targeted. As significant for the future of Pakistan is indeed the danger of Zardari's government becoming even more reckless than before in managing what clearly appears to be a runaway economy. Going through a year-long election cycle will essentially mean that an already wasteful government will likely become even less responsible than before. A speedier squandering of Pakistan's resources through populist measures to win votes for an increasingly unpopular ruling structure will only add further to the economic ruin.

Meanwhile, on the street, the challenges that Zardari appears to consider important enough to address immediately, have little relevance to the future of the country's population. For ordinary Pakistanis, there may be little interest in who gets sent to the US capital as Pakistan's ambassador, given that such a diplomatic posting will make no difference to the quality of lives across the country.

*Deeper implications*

And while there is widespread and growing hope for the ruling class to depart from the scene, a battle in the Supreme Court will become significant only when it is clear that Pakistan is about to be gifted with a long overdue uplift in its quality of government. This mood across Pakistan flows from widespread stories of corruption in high places that have frequently made the rounds in the past three years since Zardari and his lot from the PPP came to power after elections in 2008. While the government loses out on popular sentiment, Pakistan's dangerous weakening has deep-rooted implications, both for its internal stability and external challenges.

Yesterday, the Pakistani government ordered an immediate suspension of a truck supply facility given via Pakistan to western troops stationed in Afghanistan, after a western helicopter flew in to Pakistan's territory from Afghanistan, attacked a border post and by some accounts killed at least 24 Pakistani soldiers. In the coming days and weeks, it is possible that Pakistan will come around to removing the restrictions on the trucks after a face-saving solution is found. Tragically, this will be a repeat of a previous episode when a similar ban following a similar attack, was eventually lifted.

To make matters worse, though, Pakistan is hardly in a position to defend itself even when the country's physical sovereignty is infringed. The country's deep rooted dependence on the outside world, given its many internal contradictions and a continued failure to reform, has simply eroded its ability to stand up even where it has the legitimate right to do so.

For rulers like Zardari, any argument that blames the government for its failure to reform Pakistan and enable it to defend its legitimate rights, may simply be stretching the limits of legitimate debate. But then, can anyone expect better from the head of state in Pakistan whose ability to grasp the true meaning of reforms has proven to be so inadequate? 
_
Farhan Bokhari is a Pakistan-based commentator who writes on political and economic matters._


http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists/corruption-and-runaway-economy-1.937983


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## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> I am sure that the ISAF/Afghan forces were not at the border, if indeed there was any operation, so if a Pakistani post fires from 2.5 km's inside Pakistan into say 1.5-2.5 km's inside Afghanistan then they must be using morters or some sort of shelling/artillery rounds right? I mean it just couldn't be guns. These must have caused some damage, however insignificant...right? Was there any damage at all on the other side? Any damage at all?



As I said, let the story emerge.. Guess there is not too much action in the US due to the Thanksgiving weekend.. Today evening India/Pakistan time is when we should start seeing some formal responses coming out of US State dept and Pentagon

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> How could fire come into Afghanistan from Pakistani military forces 2.5kms inside Pakistan territory? In other words, this was an act of 'defense'. And if that was true, Pakistan would not be informed about it.
> 
> The part in red is in collusion with the theory that there was a *hot pursuit* of terrorists in Eastern Afghanistan, where Afghan forces called in coalition forces for air support.
> 
> *The first theory is that the attack took place in 'defense', whereas the second theory is that the attack took place in 'hot pursuit' of terrorists in Eastern Afghanistan. Both of them contradictory*.



THats why they are 2 theories.. Right.. Else they would be the same theory..


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## Bhairava

Mav3rick said:


> Are we arguing on what they would say to justify their terrorism or what really happened? Ofcourse no US/NATO/ISAF general would ever admit that they destroyed Pakistani posts and murdered Pakistani soldiers because of some 'not yet known' reasons!



No one knows till now what exactly took place on that fateful night in Mohmand. Let us wait for the investigations to be completed.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> I gave just one version of the events. Again let's wait for the investigation to complete and the report be submitted. We need not act the judge & jury.



Your story did not happen, because it is not supported by *any* narrative, & goes against ground realities & facts on the ground. Have I made myself clear? Stop inventing stories & things that did not happen.

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## 53fd

karan.1970 said:


> THats why they are 2 theories.. Right.. Else they would be the same theory..



Yes, these are the only two narratives coming from NATO.


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## Zarvan

bilalhaider said:


> Your story did not happen, because it is not supported by any narrative, & goes against ground realities & facts on the ground. Have I made myself clear? Stop inventing stories & things that did not happen.


Kiyani should give clear orders to Army to strike Back if any attack happens again and he should give it in public and write it Nato will never do it again they will not even come close to our Border

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Your story did not happen, because it is not supported by any narrative, & goes against ground realities & facts on the ground. Have I made myself clear? Stop inventing stories & things that did not happen.



Stop getting emotional dude. I have as much knowledge as you as to what happened there..in other words both of us don't know what exactly happened there.

So you pronouncing the verdict that mine is not 'authoritative' looks plain silly.

Let us wait for the men who matter to finish the investigation and file the report. And already NATO has started saying that it was Pak fire that elicited the response. Let the story develop. I guess its Thanksgiving weekend over there in US.

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## -INDIAN-

Apart form being a Arch rival citizen of Pakistan as a normal citizen I would like to know onething...My dear Pakistani friends your sovereignty is tested time and time again by the Western countries why dont you guys just go and make a big protest in the streets that will make your government do something????A death caused by a foreign nation needs no regrets but immediate action...comeon guys do something make your government to do something its increasingly getting bad to see..


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Stop getting emotional dude. I have as much knowledge as you as to what happened there..in other words both of us don't know what exactly happened there.
> 
> So you pronouncing the verdict looks plain silly.



I'm not pronouncing any verdicts, just the facts. NATO helicopters (not the Afghan troops) crossed 2.5kms into Pakistani territory & attacked 2 separate military posts, killing 24 people. Yet, you keep on insisting that Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory, when this was not the case.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> I'm not pronouncing any verdicts, just the facts. NATO helicopters (not the Afghan troops) crossed 2.5kms into Pakistani territory & attacked 2 separate military posts, killing 24 people.



And why they (choppers) crossed and did Pak soldiers start any firing is still not known.

Look up post # 1735. Already they are starting to claim that they were provoked by Pak firing.

So again, lets wait.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> And why they (choppers) crossed and did Pak soldiers start any firing is still not known.
> 
> So again, lets wait.



Why are you inventing stories that Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory as well, when this was not the case?


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## CorporateAffairs

All explanations are BS. It is intentionally done.

With loads and loads of technology, how can abyone mistake Pak army with that of Taliban or terrorists. It is pur BS.

May RIP all my pak brothers killed in the barbaric attack.

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## Agni5000

bilalhaider said:


> I'm not pronouncing any verdicts, just the facts. NATO helicopters (not the Afghan troops) crossed 2.5kms into Pakistani territory & attacked 2 separate military posts, killing 24 people. Yet, you keep on insisting that* Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory*, when this was not the case.



Who knows they crossed or not. Boarder is not properly demarcated.


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## 53fd

Agni5000 said:


> Who knows they crossed or not. Boarder is not properly demarcated.



Please support your claim with evidence from *any* source. There is *no* narrative that says that.


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Why are you inventing stories that Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory as well, *when this was not the case*?


 
No one knows for sure what's the case, *yet*

Already NATO sources have started saying this was an act of self-defence after provocatory fire from Pakistani posts. 



> "They were fired on from a Pakistani army base," the Western official in Kabul said. "It was a defensive action."



(Post # 1735).


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> No one knows what's the case, *yet*
> 
> Already NATO sources have said this was an act of self-defence after provocatory fire from Pakistani posts. (Post # 1735).



And the contradictions in their claims have been exposed. Btw, the NATO sources said that the Afghan troops were conducting operations in the border regions of Eastern Afghanistan, not Pakistan.


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## Agni5000

bilalhaider said:


> Please support your claim with evidence from *any* source. There is *no* narrative that says that.



Do you believe if they narrate? NATO saying they acted on self defense. Why are you not believing it?

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> And the contradictions in their claims have been exposed. Btw, the NATO sources said that the Afghan troops were conducting operations in the border regions of Eastern Afghanistan, not Pakistan.



They said "close to poorly de-marcated border". Enough leeway for the future.

BTW this is what a Western official claims -



> "They were fired on from a Pakistani army base," the Western official in Kabul said. *"It was a defensive action."*



(Post # 1735).


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> No one knows for sure what's the case, *yet*
> 
> Already NATO sources have started saying this was an act of self-defence after provocatory fire from Pakistani posts.
> 
> 
> 
> (Post # 1735).



One of the NATO source says that there was an ongoing operation against militants in Eastern Afghanistan, that Pakistan were notified of it beforehand, & that the attack on the military posts (2.5kms inside Pakistani territory) was accidental, because of the poor demarcation in the border region.

The other NATO source says there was firing from a Pakistani army base (2.5km inside Pakistani territory) into Afghanistan, & that it was a defensive action. 

Which one was it?

---------- Post added at 11:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> One of the NATO source says that there was an ongoing operation against militants in Eastern Afghanistan, that Pakistan were notified of it beforehand, & that the attack on the military posts (2.5kms inside Pakistani territory) was accidental, because of the poor demarcation in the border region.
> 
> The other NATO source says there was firing from a Pakistani army base (2.5km inside Pakistani territory) into Afghanistan, & that it was a defensive action.
> 
> Which one was it?



Btw, neither account says Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory like you said.


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> One of the NATO source says that there was an ongoing operation against militants in Eastern Afghanistan, that Pakistan were notified of it beforehand, & that the attack on the military posts (2.5kms inside Pakistani territory) was accidental, because of the poor demarcation in the border region.
> 
> The other NATO source says there was firing from a Pakistani army base (2.5km inside Pakistani territory) into Afghanistan, & that it was a defensive action.
> 
> Which one was it?



I have already explained how the two are not self-contradictory.

BTW instead of asking me, why don't you wait for the official investigation to conclude and the report be submitted, as I have been saying from the very beginning.

---------- Post added at 11:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> Btw, neither account says Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory like you said.



Does not say...*as of now.*


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## Peshwa

bilalhaider said:


> One of the NATO source says that there was an ongoing operation against militants in Eastern Afghanistan, that Pakistan were notified of it beforehand, & that the attack on them was accidental, because of the poor demarcation in the border region.
> 
> The other NATO source says there was firing from a Pakistani army base (2.5km inside Pakistani territory) into Afghanistan, & that it was a defensive action.
> 
> Which one was it?



Connect the bloody dots already....

An operation against militants in E. Afg cud have led to incursions by Afghan forces into Pak territory due to poorly demarcated border region.
Firing from Pak army bases to prevent incursions (or to provide cover to militants, a less popular theory here) resulted in the afghan forces calling for air support.
Air support caused casualties...

everything is speculation from what ive read, No party is willing to concede or take blame.... so the wait and watch game is probably what we should be playing....

All theories just yet, unless I missed some key piece of news....

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> I have already explained how the two are not self-contradictory.



They are contradictory. One account says this was an act of 'defense', the other says it was 'hot pursuit'. Hot pursuit indicates attack mode, whereas 'defense' indicates defensive mode. Hence, they are contradictory.

Btw, neither account says Afghan troops crossed into Pakistani territory like you said.


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## bdslph

15 days Pakistan should had said within 24 hours i hate what NATO / AMERICAN did


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## regular

888jamie888 said:


> Aryan, in every other post of yours you speak of Americas impending doom, bankruptcy, death, destruction etc. Why,therefore would they now risk another conflict with Pakistan?


Sir! the war with Pakistan will be funded by the Federal reseves and they just paid 2.5 Trillion US dollars to the US Govt to start this war. Cuz they just paid the US Govt for their debt 2.5Trillion$$ in August when they had financial problem to run the Govt and U know who is Federal reserves of the US??? It is the private governing body that prints the $$$ out of nowhere and just lends it to the US govt if they need them. It is totally run by the Zionist Lobby who are totally warmongorers and Luciferians/Anti-Christ pplz. They are directing US govt and the Pentagon what to do in the world.The white house is totally under their control and fully under the debt of the Federal Reserves.....


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## 53fd

Peshwa said:


> Connect the bloody dots already....
> 
> An operation against militants in E. Afg cud have led to incursions by Afghan forces into Pak territory due to poorly demarcated border region.



The operations were taking place against militants inside Afghan (Eastern Afghanistan) territory, not Pakistan. There were no Afghan forces that crossed Pakistani territory, only NATO helicopters. If the Afghan troops with their human eyes know where the border is, but the NATO Forces with their night vision cannot do so, that is not possible. The Afghan forces could not have known that Pakistani military posts were firing into Afghanistan from 2.5kms inside Pakistan. It is also not scientifically possible for Pakistani military posts to fire into Afghanistan 2.5kms inside Pakistan.

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## bdslph

Pakistan KICK THE AMERICAN OUT PLS

they dont respect us Muslims now believe what we had to sacrifice , for them

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## regular

U know what gonna happens now The US/NATO will never hesitate to attack and kill more of our soldiers after this incident if we didn't shoot down each and every drone or aircraft entering within our territory.......

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## Peshwa

bilalhaider said:


> The operations were taking place against militants inside Afghan (Eastern Afghanistan) territory, not Pakistan. *There were no Afghan forces that crossed Pakistani territory, only NATO helicopters*. If the Afghan troops with their human eyes know where the border is, but the NATO Forces with their night vision cannot do so, that is not possible. The Afghan forces could not have known that Pakistani military posts were firing into Afghanistan from 2.5kms inside Pakistan. It is also not scientifically possible for Pakistani military posts to fire into Afghanistan 2.5kms inside Pakistan.



The bold part is exactly what has not been revealed yet....as the story and narratives unfolds, that could very well be the scenario (and IMO a not so crazy or impossible one either)...
However, you're hell bent on pinning this as a no possibility right here, right now, while we are asking you to "wait and watch"..
How hard would that be?

Its still pretty early to make any conclusive decisions....

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## Areesh

Love the way Indians are working as muft kai wakeel for NATO and Americans. Hatred for Pakistan seems to be the biggest impetus for this love for NATO.

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## 53fd

Peshwa said:


> The bold part is exactly what has not been revealed yet....as the story and narratives unfolds, that could very well be the scenario (and IMO a not so crazy or impossible one either)...
> However, you're hell bent on pinning this as a no possibility right here, right now, while we are asking you to "wait and watch"..
> How hard would that be?
> 
> Its still pretty early to make any conclusive decisions....



If that was the case, there would have been an encounter between the Pakistan Border Forces (this is different from the troops at the military outposts 2.5kms into Pakistani territory) & the Afghan troops. That did not happen. There were no encounter, there were no losses for the Pakistan Border Forces or the Afghan Forces. And in such a situation, the Afghan Forces would have known that they were crossing into Pakistani territory. Hence, this did not happen, & no indication from Pakistan or NATO that such a scenario took place. There have been no reports that such an incident took place.


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## soul hacker

We do not accept Nato apology: Pak Army
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Army while expressing its disgust over Nato attacks has said that it does not accept Nato apology and that this action can lead to serious consequences, Geo News reported Monday.

According to Army spokesman Major General Athar Abbas, Nato&#8217;s regret over the attack is not enough. 

He said that such incidents have happened in past that killed 72 soldiers and injured more than 250 troops in three years.






maj general ATHER ABBAS DG ISPR
now thats THE STEP GO PAKARMY GO....>

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## Developereo

Areesh said:


> Love the way Indians are working as muft kai wakeel for NATO and Americans. Hatred for Pakistan seems to be the biggest impetus for this love for NATO.



Why are we even bothering to justify?

*Even if the Pakistani soldiers were drunk out of their minds and shooting randomly in the air, it is still the NATO aircraft's fault for being2.5km inside Pakistani airspace.*

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## karan.1970

bilalhaider said:


> Yes, these are the only two narratives coming from NATO.



So their contradictory nature does not indicate anything.. As I said, wait for the official version..


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> If that was the case, there would have been an encounter between the Pakistan Border Forces (this is different from the troops at the military outposts 2.5kms into Pakistani territory) & the Afghan troops. *That did not happen. There were no encounter, there were no losses for the Pakistan Border Forces or the Afghan Forces.* And in such a situation, the Afghan Forces would have known that they were crossing into Pakistani territory. Hence, this did not happen, & no indication from Pakistan or NATO that such a scenario took place. There have been no reports that such an incident took place.



Again how difficult is it for you to understand that no one knows what exactly happened there ? There is no official confirmation of events. So wait and watch.

---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------




Developereo said:


> *Even if the Pakistani soldiers were drunk out of their minds and shooting randomly in the air, it is still the NATO aircraft's fault for being2.5km inside Pakistani airspace.*



Not if they were shooting at Afghan/Coalition troops.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Again how difficult is it for you to understand that no one knows what exactly happened there ? There is no official confirmation of events. So wait and watch.



There has been an official confirmation that 24 Pakistani soldiers in military posts 2.5 kms into Pakistani territory were killed by NATO helicopters, not Afghan troops. There has been an official confirmation that Afghan troops were operating in Eastern Afghanistan, not Pakistan. There has been an official confirmation that no Afghan troops were killed or injured, & neither were any Pakistan Border Forces killed or injured. In conclusion, Afghan Forces did not cross into Pakistan, only NATO helicopters did.

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## regular

Developereo said:


> Why are we even bothering to justify?
> 
> *Even if the Pakistani soldiers were drunk out of their minds and shooting randomly in the air, it is still the NATO aircraft's fault for being2.5km inside Pakistani airspace.*


The US/NATO are nothing but Devilz in the shape of the humans....They shold not be given any space to runnaway this time after this heinous evil act on our poor soldiers brutally murdering them in cold blood while asleep....There is no question of any excuse for these Evil warmongorers.......

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

karan.1970 said:


> So their contradictory nature does not indicate anything.. As I said, wait for the official version..



well, it does prove that they are making lame excuses. If there really was a genuine reason, it would have been issued by US/NATO sources till now...


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## Developereo

Bhairava said:


> Not if they were shooting at Afghan/Coalition troops.



Not even then.

NATO is not authorized for hot pursuit inside Pakistan. The most they can do is to fire from the other side of the border.

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## Bhairava

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> well, it does prove that they are making lame excuses. If there really was a genuine reason, it would have been issued by US/NATO sources till now...


 
I guess it's a long weekend over there for Thanksgiving. More stories will be coming in by today evening.

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------




Developereo said:


> Not even then.
> 
> NATO is not authorized for hot pursuit inside Pakistan. The most they can do is to fire from the other side of the border.



You do not know what your politicians or military top echelons have authorized the NATO, behind the curtains.

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## mjnaushad

Its funny and sad that how Indian members trying to Justify the killing of Pakistani soldiers....... Their hate towards Pakistan is reaching new heights.....

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## T-Rex

Bhairava said:


> I guess it's a long weekend over there for Thanksgiving. More stories will be coming in by today evening.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> You do not know what your politicians or military top echelons have authorized the NATO, behind the curtains.



*How is it that you know what has been authorised?*


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> There has been an official confirmation that 24 Pakistani soldiers in military posts 2.5 kms into Pakistani territory were killed by NATO helicopters, not Afghan troops. There has been an official confirmation that Afghan troops were operating in Eastern Afghanistan, not Pakistan. There has been an official confirmation that no Afghan troops were killed or injured, & neither were any Pakistan Border Forces killed or injured. In conclusion, Afghan Forces did not cross into Pakistan, only NATO helicopters did.



The Afghan forces could have crossed back once the helis arrived on the scene.

Everything now is only a 'could','would' scenario and let's wait for the investigation to complete.

Enough hints have already been thrown by NATO what their version of the story would be.

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------




mjnaushad said:


> Its funny and sad that how Indian members trying to Justify the killing of Pakistani soldiers....... Their hate towards Pakistan is reaching new heights.....



It's not hate.

The Admin asked me if there is any other possible theory some pages back and I'm just going my 'theory'


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## ChineseTiger1986

RIP to the fallen soldiers.

We shall never forget this.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> The Afghan forces could have crossed back once the helis arrived on the scene.



Where would they cross back from? The Pakistan Border Forces wouldn't let them cross into Pakistan in the first place, & there would have been an encounter, & the Afghan troops would know they were entering Pakistani territory. There was no encounter. Stop making up stories.

Just saying let's wait for the results of the NATO investigation is enough. No need to make up stories.


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## karan.1970

Pakistani mortars &#8216;trigger deadly air strike&#8217; « Miles Amoore

The US has expressed regret and offered its &#8220;deepest condolences&#8221; after 24 Pakistani soldiers who were killed in cross-border Nato air strikes were buried on Sunday, calling the attacks a &#8220;tragic unintended incident&#8221;.

*Pakistani troops fired mortars at American ground soldiers patrolling the Afghan border, triggering Nato air strikes, according to Afghan officials and western sources. *The killings, which occurred in the early hours of Saturday when Nato bombs smashed into two Pakistani military checkpoints, threaten to further damage the already shaky relationship between America and Pakistan.

Pakistan has responded to the killings by ordering the closure of a CIA drone base and by cutting Nato&#8217;s supply line into Afghanistan.

Details of what happened remain murky. Pakistan said the air strikes took place in the Pakistani tribal agency of Mohmand. Pakistani officials called the bombardment a &#8220;grave infringement&#8221; of the country&#8217;s sovereignty.

*But The Sunday Times has learned that the two checkpoints hit by the air strikes were in fact constructed on Afghan soil, in Kunar province&#8217;s Khas Kunar district between the villages of Shaley and Shrunkey.
* 

When American ground forces, who were conducting a night time patrol on Saturday morning, approached the two Pakistani checkpoints, the Pakistani soldiers stationed there responded by firing mortars at the Americans, according to local intelligence and western officials.

*Standard operating procedures dictate that Nato forces must withdraw when fired upon by Pakistani troops, an occurrence which takes place more often than reported, according to western analysts who monitor security developments in the east.

But, on this occasion, Nato called in air strikes to stop the mortar teams from firing at the American ground troops.*

*&#8220;In the early night hours of this morning, a force consisting of Afghan forces and coalition forces, in the eastern border area where the Durand Line is not always 100 per cent clear, got involved in a fire fight,&#8221; said Nato spokesman, Brigadier General Carsten Jacobsen.*

Pakistani troops have made an increasing number of cross-border incursions into Afghan territory since the beginning of the year, according to western and local Afghan officials.

Part of the problem is that the exact location of the border between the two countries, known as the Durand Line, remains disputed and ambiguous.

&#8220;It is still not clear if the Americans knew that the people attacking them were Pakistani military forces or whether they thought they might be insurgents. But the firing must have been intense for them to respond like this,&#8221; said one western official.

It is possible that the Americans may have mistaken the Pakistani soldiers for Taliban insurgents, especially because the operation took place in the dark. But officials said that the Americans would have known the location of Pakistani military bases along the border.

Pakistan&#8217;s army spokesman Major General Athar Abbas said map references of all of the force&#8217;s border posts had been given to NATO several times.

*Other sources, who refused to be named because of the sensitivity of the subject, blamed the killings on the close relationship between elements of Pakistan&#8217;s security forces, such as the country&#8217;s Frontier Corps, and the insurgents based on Pakistani soil.

&#8220;The US could be hiding the fact that sometimes it can be quite difficult to discern Talibs from Frontier Corps given they often work closely together on operations and that one may be wearing the uniform of the other,&#8221; said one source.*

Pakistan&#8217;s military denies that its forces fired on the Americans first. Pakistani officials said that Nato&#8217;s attack was &#8220;unprovoked&#8221; and that its soldiers were asleep when the air strikes hit the two bases, killing as many as 28 and wounding as many as 14, some critically.

The Afghanistan-Pakistan border region holds a highly volatile mixture of competing insurgent networks, American troops and special forces, CIA bases and Pakistani military outposts.

Much of the violence inside Afghanistan is carried out by militants who are based across the border in Pakistan.

Nato ground troops are forbidden from crossing the border to attack the militants&#8217; havens, *although the CIA is believed to run a 3,000 strong Afghan paramilitary force that conducts cross-border raids into Pakistan.*

Afghan officials frequently accuse the Pakistani army of firing artillery across the border, killing Afghan civilians.

*Militants based in Pakistan also fire mortars and rockets across the border, sometimes from locations close to Pakistani military outposts. American officials accuse Pakistan of turning a blind eye to these attacks.*

But Islamabad has also criticised Nato for failing to prevent militants sheltering on the Afghan side of the border from attacking Pakistani security forces.

In response to the killing of its soldiers on Saturday, Pakistan closed the border crossings at Torkham in the east and Chaman in the south, preventing Nato supplies from crossing into Afghanistan. Nato relies on the border crossings for almost 50% of its supplies.

Pakistani officials have also demanded that America vacates its Shamsi Air Base in the southwest province of Balochistan. The airbase is used by the CIA for its controversial drone programme. The unmanned planes allow America to strike Al-Qaeda, Taliban and Haqqani militants inside Pakistan&#8217;s tribal agencies.

Relations between Pakistan and American hit an all time low earlier in the year when American Special Forces killed Osama bin Laden close to a Pakistani military academy near Islamabad.

Relations were again strained when senior American officials accused Pakistan&#8217;s intelligence service, the ISI, of supporting the Haqqani network, an insurgent group it blamed for attacking the US embassy in September.

The killings are not the first time that Pakistani and American forces have clashed along the rugged, mountainous border region.

In 2008, Pakistani soldiers fired heavy machine guns at two American helicopter gunships that had entered Pakistani airspace from Afghanistan. The helicopters were forced to turn back.

Four days later, American ground troops opened fire on Pakistani troops when the latter again shot at two US reconnaissance helicopters. The Americans said the helicopters were flying in support of a ground patrol on the Afghan side of the border.

Last year, American helicopters fired missiles at a base of Frontier Corp troops, killing three Pakistani soldiers and wounding three more, after Pakistani forces fired warning shots at the helicopters, which had entered Pakistani airspace. Pakistan responded by closing a key NATO supply route for 11 days.

Nato said it would launch an investigation into the most recent killings &#8211; the highest death toll caused by a &#8220;friendly fire&#8221; incident since the Afghan conflict began. The investigation is expected to ascertain whether Pakistani troops fired at American ground forces first.

The Pakistani government said it plans to review all diplomatic, military and intelligence cooperation with the US and other NATO forces following an emergency cabinet meeting chaired by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani.

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## mjnaushad

Here comes more propaganda.......

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## karan.1970

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> well, it does prove that they are making lame excuses. If there really was a genuine reason, it would have been issued by US/NATO sources till now...



GUess it would be done once the weekend is over and the investigation is complete..Its a govt agency and not an internet forum where any one can say anything without any proof or evidence and get away with it


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## 53fd

karan.1970 said:


> Pakistani mortars &#8216;trigger deadly air strike&#8217; « Miles Amoore
> 
> *But The Sunday Times has learned that the two checkpoints hit by the air strikes were in fact constructed on Afghan soil, in Kunar province&#8217;s Khas Kunar district between the villages of Shaley and Shrunkey.
> *



*So in other words, the airstrikes did not take place in Mohmand Agency 2.5km into Pakistani territory, but in Kunar, Afghanistan territory *

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## karan.1970

mjnaushad said:


> Its funny and sad that how Indian members trying to Justify the killing of Pakistani soldiers....... Their hate towards Pakistan is reaching new heights.....



Who's justifying.. Everyone is just pushing the idea of waiting for the official version of the events to be published instead of dreaming up theories and unfeasible retaliatory options..

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## Developereo

^^ this is what we call 'casting a wide net and hoping to catch something'.

'Local and western' officials claim all of the following:
- Pakistan was firing mortars upon Americans.
- Pakistan's checkposts were in Afghan territory.
- The border is not clear anyway.
- It's hard to differentiate Pakistani soldiers from Taliban.
- The mortars could have come from insurgents; they are not sure.
- Maybe an alien spaceship fired the mortars and disappeared.

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## Zarvan

bilalhaider said:


> *So in other words, the airstrikes did not take place in Mohmand Agency 2.5km into Pakistani territory, but in Kunar, Afghanistan territory *


Where ever it took place the pint is 24 Soldiers of Pak Army were martyred and Army should have and hit back to the attackers and finished them of so they don't dare to do this act again


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## mjnaushad

karan.1970 said:


> Who's justifying.. Everyone is just pushing the idea of waiting for the official version of the events to be published instead of dreaming up theories and unfeasible retaliatory options..



Nope...... Everybody is trying to shovel it our throat that it was indeed a Pakistani mistake and Pakistan is responsible for the attack.


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## Developereo

mjnaushad said:


> Here comes more propaganda.......



Extra overtime for Hollywood writers.

P.S. Teams are busy looking for old Pakistani mortar shells so they can be produced as 'evidence'.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> EDIT: I see there are more news coming in. Did I not say how this will turn out ?



The 'news' coming out is from an unreliable source, saying that *the airstrike did not take place 2.5kms in Pakistani territory in Mohmand Agency, Pakistan; but in Kunar, Afghanistan. *

Oh, & Santa Claus is real.

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## Bhairava

mjnaushad said:


> Nope...... Everybody is trying to shovel it our throat that it was indeed a Pakistani mistake and Pakistan is responsible for the attack.



No man. Every one, atleast me saying that wait for the official version to come out.


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## mjnaushad

bilalhaider said:


> *So in other words, the airstrikes did not take place in Mohmand Agency 2.5km into Pakistani territory, but in Kunar, Afghanistan territory *



Funny thing is the Sunday time has learned that check post were in Afghanistan but NATO thinks the fire came across the border....

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## karan.1970

mjnaushad said:


> Nope...... Everybody is trying to shovel it our throat that it was indeed a Pakistani mistake and Pakistan is responsible for the attack.



I dont agree with that.. Its just that Pakistani media is coming out with Pakistani side of the story and NATO media with its own. None of it is the official version yet (atleast on the NATO side). So the shoveling down the throat is the fact that there are arguements and counter arguments that exist which can not be accepted/refuted till the official versions of both sides of the story are out.

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

karan.1970 said:


> *But The Sunday Times has learned that the two checkpoints hit by the air strikes were in fact constructed on Afghan soil, in Kunar provinces Khas Kunar district between the villages of Shaley and Shrunkey.
> *




This reporting of SUNDAY TIMES has proved that it is pure propaganda.. The checkpost was in Mohamand Agency which is inside Pakistan.
SO SHUT UP SUNDAY TIMES!

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Did you not want a few pages back, news from 'any' source ? Suddenly if a source comes and you deem it uncredible ?



I asked for a source that supported the story you made up, & this narrative doesn't support your story either.

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## mjnaushad

Bhairava said:


> Did you not want a few pages back, news from 'any' source ? Suddenly if a source comes and you deem it uncredible ?



If you haven't read its Sunday Time learned.... Not NATO or Pakistani official..... Or perhaps they are following that theory of Afghanistan border starts at Attock

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## Areesh

Developereo said:


> Why are we even bothering to justify?
> 
> *Even if the Pakistani soldiers were drunk out of their minds and shooting randomly in the air, it is still the NATO aircraft's fault for being2.5km inside Pakistani airspace.*



Yup don't know why are we even trying to answer the justifications by Indian members. 

Worst part is it is still only Pakistanis who are taught hatred against India and the situation isn't the same vice versa according to Indian members here. 

---------- Post added at 12:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------




karan.1970 said:


> Who's justifying.. Everyone is just pushing the idea of waiting for the official version of the events to be published instead of dreaming up theories and unfeasible retaliatory options..



Apparently it is Indians who are willing to accept any official version coming from NATO(not Pakistan). No matter what it is. Even if they say that all 28 soldiers got killed by their own guns somehow.

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## 53fd

Three different theories. One says the attack was in hot pursuit of terrorists, the second says it was retaliatory (& in defense) after the Afghan troops were fired upon, & the third says *the air strikes did not take place in Pakistan at all, they took place in Afghanistan.*

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## mjnaushad

May they rest in peace...

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## TaimiKhan

*Other sources, who refused to be named because of the sensitivity of the subject, blamed the killings on the close relationship between elements of Pakistans security forces, such as the countrys Frontier Corps, and the insurgents based on Pakistani soil.

The US could be hiding the fact that sometimes it can be quite difficult to discern Talibs from Frontier Corps given they often work closely together on operations and that one may be wearing the uniform of the other, said one source.*

Complete BS. Talibs don't use uniforms. FC guys have a very clearly identified Khaki color or black color uniform. Plus, both of these posts were being manned by FC as well as soldiers from a regular AJK regiment. 

All the border posts are on top of mountain peaks, Pakistani flags are hosted on them, locations on maps are provided to opposite side, GPS coordinates are provided, the structure of these posts are very clear and from far away they can be very easily identified as military check posts. 

Complete at utter BS, they are coming up with baseless theories and sources to justify their killings, which was deliberate. 

They knew the exact location of these posts, they attacked it deliberately and knowingly.

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## Bhairava

mjnaushad said:


> May they rest in peace...



Oftopic: But what is the compensation given to the next of kin in case of a soldier's death in line of duty ?


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

TaimiKhan said:


> *Other sources, who refused to be named because of the sensitivity of the subject, blamed the killings on the close relationship between elements of Pakistan&#8217;s security forces, such as the country&#8217;s Frontier Corps, and the insurgents based on Pakistani soil.
> 
> &#8220;The US could be hiding the fact that sometimes it can be quite difficult to discern Talibs from Frontier Corps given they often work closely together on operations and that one may be wearing the uniform of the other,&#8221; said one source.*
> 
> Complete BS. Talibs don't use uniforms. FC guys have a very clearly identified Khaki color or black color uniform. Plus, both of these posts were being manned by FC as well as soldiers from a regular AJK regiment.
> 
> All the border posts are on top of mountain peaks, Pakistani flags are hosted on them, locations on maps are provided to opposite side, GPS coordinates are provided, the structure of these posts are very clear and from far away they can be very easily identified as military check posts.
> 
> Complete at utter BS, they are coming up with baseless theories and sources to justify their killings, which was deliberate.
> 
> They knew the exact location of these posts, they attacked it deliberately and knowingly.



May Be............. US/NATO troops are COLOUR BLIND..


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## TaimiKhan

Areesh said:


> Well Indians aren't logical from any direction. Haha for the logical and less emotional part. Check last few pages and the stories Indian members have come up with to "justify" this incident. Right now they are looking to catch anything coming from NATO. No matter how difficult the catch is.



Why are you describing which is very obvious ?? 


Just leave this topic, let them say whatever they want, its useless to argue with them. 


Concentrate on the topic / discussion being done.

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## karan.1970

Areesh said:


> Well Indians aren't logical from any direction. Haha for the logical and less emotional part. Check last few pages and the stories Indian members have come up with to "justify" this incident. Right now they are looking to catch anything coming from NATO. No matter how difficult the catch is.



Same can be said about Pakistanis who are latching on to everything coming out of Pindi without questioning the basics and even making lame excuses for gaps in the story like
1. How come hekis and jets ingressed without being tracked by the Pakistani radar.. I dont buy the BS about terrain and how it is difficult to track a low flying heli.. Army is not sitting there to do easy jobs only
2. How come PAF didnt get scrambled
3. How come 2 hours long assault continued without any air support provided to the 2 posts
4. How come after the attack on the 1st post, the second post was also caught unaware
5. How come low flying helicopters continued the assault for over 2 hours without taking any damage

Hence, as I said, every thing is just speculation (except the unfortunate deaths of 28 soldiers).. We will get to know the answers to some/all these questions only when both the official versions are out

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## TaimiKhan

LEGENDARY WARRIOR said:


> May Be............. US/NATO troops are COLOUR BLIND..



Well, they are cowards and incompetent, these actions by US are to take out their frustration.


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## Roybot

Any takers for this story?



> S Attack on Pakistani Outpost - What Really Happened
> 
> 11/27/2011
> 
> Bismillah ar-rahman ar-raheem.
> 
> *Midnight, on the 26th of November, a Pakistan Army post, manned by soldiers from the Azad Kashmir Regiment, detected movement in a valley below and adjacent to their check-post. The checkpoint is 2 km inside Pakistani territory and located on high ground. After identifying the movement as armed individuals via night vision devices, spot light and flares, the soldiers opened fire. Shortly, they came under attack of an AH-64 Apache helicopter, resulting in the loss of 19 lives.
> 
> Gleaning from the ISAF press release, it seems that these unidentified individuals were US soldiers infiltrating well into Pakistani territory, without any prior notice to Pakistani counterparts. Furthermore, there is no official operation indicated by the occupation forces, so this was likely a classified operation. The Pakistanis have given coordinates of all Pakistani posts / bases in the region and, given the GPS and other navigation devices available to NATO, it is impossible that the occupation forces did not know that they were: 1) inside Pakistani territory and 2) where this base was located.
> 
> This leads to the conclusion that at some point in the past, the US military has received permission to expand the war into Pakistan and to "increase the heat temperature" so to speak.
> 
> Continuing with our narrative, the attacked troops called regional command for help, and a quick reaction force was send to aid them. These were then attacked by A-10s of the occupation forces. The battle lasted for at least an hour and resulted in the death of not only the Pakistani forces engaged but also those asleep in the compound. Total death toll stands at 24-28.*
> 
> Given that the battle lasted that long and that US forces have both coordinates and high tech equipment to note their position, and being aware of the location of the Pakistani base 2km inside Pakistani territory, the attack is obviously deliberate. Given both that the A-10s, which are USAF assets and AH-64s (Army / Marine) assets were involved, this was a predetermined operation aimed, coldly calculated to have specific objects.
> 
> An educated guess of those objectives are as follows. The United States want to destabilize Pakistan or to directly confront her. Their supply is well stocked for the winter and they have developed alternative routes to Afghanistan. They now wish to create political space to go into Pakistan. A destabilized Pakistan would allow them this opportunity.
> 
> At present, the mood within the Pakistan Army, particularly junior / mid-tier officer ranks would lend credence to the possibility that the US may have achieved its objective. What the rank and file want is a punitive punishment of the US. Kayani cannot accomplish this without losing military procurements and showing that the political establishment has no effective power. On the other hand, if he does not react appropriately, he loses face with his men who are on the verge of a mutiny. This is thus a lose-lose situation for Pakistan and a win-win scenario for the US.
> 
> Any Pakistanis reading this would be sincerely advised to calm down, there will be enough time to return the favor to the Americans, insh'Allah. Do not act in haste, do not lose your discipline. Actions should not be taken in haste, calm down, relax. We shall deal with them insh'Allah in a time and location of our choosing and not theirs.
> 
> Grande Strategy



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/143321-us-attack-pakistani-outpost-what-really-happened.html

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## Areesh

karan.1970 said:


> Same can be said about Pakistanis who are latching on to everything coming out of Pindi without questioning the basics and even making lame excuses for gaps in the story like
> 1. How come hekis and jets ingressed without being tracked by the Pakistani radar.. I dont buy the BS about terrain and how it is difficult to track a low flying heli.. Army is not sitting there to do easy jobs only
> 2. How come PAF didnt get scrambled
> 3. How come 2 hours long assault continued without any air support provided to the 2 posts
> 4. How come after the attack on the 1st post, the second post was also caught unaware
> 5. How come low flying helicopters continued the assault for over 2 hours without taking any damage
> 
> Hence, as I said, every thing is just speculation (except the unfortunate deaths of 28 soldiers).. We will get to know the answers to some/all these questions only when both the official versions are out



Would have answered the "gaps" in the Pakistani story even if they have been answered very comprehensively in this thread. But first looking at your flags and then as the Taimi said the intentions of you guys is obvious so let's leave it for now. Thanks for being "logical". My foot.

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## sreekimpact

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan&#8217;s military on Monday denied reports that Nato forces in Afghanistan came under fire before launching a cross-border attack that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers over the weekend.

&#8220;This is not true. They are making up excuses. What are their losses, casualties?&#8221; said army spokesman Major-General Athar Abbas in a text message.

A report, citing Afghan and Western officials, had said that fire from a Pakistani military outpost into Afghanistan prompted the air strikes.

Abbas said Nato forces&#8217; regret on the incident was not enough and said the incident could result in serious consequences.

He recalled that such activities had been carried out in the past, adding that he did not think that such activities would be tolerated anymore.

Abbas said the top leadership would decide how to further take up this incident.

He informed the media that seven or eight attacks by Nato forces had resulted in the deaths of 72 soldiers during the past three years, adding that more than 250 security personnel had also been wounded.&#8212;DawnNews

---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

BEIJING: China&#8217;s Foreign Ministry said on Monday it was &#8220;deeply shocked&#8221; about a Nato cross-border air attack that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers and urged respect for Pakistan&#8217;s independence and sovereignty.

&#8220;China is deeply shocked by these events, and expresses strong concern for the victims and profound condolences to Pakistan,&#8221; Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said in a statement on the ministry&#8217;s website.

&#8220;China believes that Pakistan&#8217;s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and the incident should be thoroughly investigated and be handled properly,&#8221; he said.

Pakistan has reacted with fury over the Nato cross-border air attack that could undermine the US effort to wind up the war in Afghanistan.

Nato described the killings as a &#8220;tragic unintended incident&#8221; and said an investigation was under way. A western official and an Afghan security official who requested anonymity said Nato troops were responding to fire from across the border.


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## TaimiKhan

I say, Arm the soldiers with 12.7 / 14.5mm heavy guns, MANPADs to be provided, Peshawar should get a CAS/CAP squadron and start providing air support in limited manner, all kind of intel sharing with NATO/US finished and make the US pay in Afghanistan through Taliban (which in anyway is gonna happen).

And yeah, a similar "by mistake" PAF strike on a US/NATO post on the Afghan border(provided they do have a post) is also a good option.

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## Creder

new reports saying the strikes went on for two hours ! was the PAF sleeping too ?!


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## Areesh

TaimiKhan said:


> I say, Arm the soldiers with 12.7 / 14.5mm heavy guns, MANPADs to be provided, Peshawar should get a CAS/CAP squadron and start providing air support in limited manner, all kind of intel sharing with NATO/US finished and make the US pay in Afghanistan through Taliban (which in anyway is gonna happen).



+1. Now that's what I and every Pakistani who loves this country wants too. Pay back to them and they would have to bleed too. Some(or as many as possible) Americans would have to die surely.


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## Emran

Take your apology and shove it
we want those pilots and soldiers who carried out those bombings ,
They did a crime on the sacred soile of Islamic republic of Pakistan and if Nato is serious about its apology she should hand over those who r responsible to Pakistani authorities !!!

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## TaimiKhan

Creder said:


> new reports saying the strikes went on for two hours ! was the PAF sleeping too ?!


 
The communication system between our ground forces is not good, its slow. There is no direct link of such posts with PAF assets. They may have first communicated with their company HQs, then Unit HQ might have been notified, then Brigade HQ comes in, Divisional HQ & then Corps level. I am not sure but don't think the news may have reached the highest level in 2 hrs and then a decision to be made and then PAF guys being notified, well i guess you may know how long our chain of command goes. 

PAF has nothing to do in this nor is it their fault.

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## graphican

> But The Sunday Times has learned that the two checkpoints hit by the air strikes were in fact constructed on Afghan soil, in Kunar province&#8217;s Khas Kunar district between the villages of Shaley and Shrunkey.



Let there be some time when people could actually not criticize poor rather absurd mindset. You didn't write it but you surely earned the points for being mentally infant by highlighting above lines in red.

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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Make the US pay in Afghanistan through Taliban (which in anyway is gonna happen).



How do you propose this is accomplished?


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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> I say, Arm the soldiers with 12.7 / 14.5mm heavy guns, MANPADs to be provided, Peshawar should get a CAS/CAP squadron and start providing air support in limited manner, all kind of intel sharing with NATO/US finished and make the US pay in Afghanistan through Taliban (which in anyway is gonna happen).
> 
> And yeah, a similar "by mistake" PAF strike on a US/NATO post on the Afghan border(provided they do have a post) is also a good option.



Unless this 'mistake' by PAF happens, they will keep on doing this.

We need to give them a casualty so that they could think about it twice.


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## 53fd

TaimiKhan said:


> The communication system between our ground forces is not good, its slow. There is no direct link of such posts with PAF assets. They may have first communicated with their company HQs, then Unit HQ might have been notified, then Brigade HQ comes in, Divisional HQ & then Corps level. I am not sure but don't think the news may have reached the highest level in 2 hrs and then a decision to be made and then PAF guys being notified, well i guess you may know how long our chain of command goes.
> 
> PAF has nothing to do in this nor is it their fault.



This is not acceptable, sorry.

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## Bhairava

nuclearpak said:


> Unless this 'mistake' by PAF happens, they will keep on doing this.
> 
> We need to give them a casualty so that they could think about it twice.



This will only aggravate the situation further and not solve anything.

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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> The communication system between our ground forces is not good, its slow. There is no direct link of such posts with PAF assets. They may have first communicated with their company HQs, then Unit HQ might have been notified, then Brigade HQ comes in, Divisional HQ & then Corps level. I am not sure but don't think the news may have reached the highest level in 2 hrs and then a decision to be made and then PAF guys being notified, well i guess you may know how long our chain of command goes.
> 
> PAF has nothing to do in this nor is it their fault.



I perfectly remember that a course maybe of my father was flying a Cobra heli above Lal Masjid during the siege. He said that they had no contact with the ground troops. And had to relay info to ATC, which in turn relayed info to the unit HQ, which radioed the info. Easily could take 10 or so minutes.

The DG ISPR has said the following points today on TV

- This is one attack too much, and the repercussions could be serious.

-We refuse to believe it was a mistake.

- The area had been cleared a long time ago, and the excuse that they were chasing militants there does not hold.

- NATO had been informed prior to it.

The operation carried on for half an hour.

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------




Bhairava said:


> This will only aggravate the situation further and not solve anything.



Next time they come, down their heli. Simple as that.


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## Jango

Bhairava said:


> It could be well be interpreted as Pakistan's fault for not properly demarcating its border. Can such things happen on the India-Pak border for example ?
> MOD EDIT: Trolling


 
The excuse of poorly demarcated border does not hold water here.

It was not ground troops that attacked the Company HQ, it was 4 helicopters. And helicopters have navigation systems accurate to meters , and they could clearly know whether they had crossed the border or not.

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## Black Widow

No matter where firing took place, Afghan or Pakistan, the truth is Pakistani soldiers died. Pakistan is not enemy for Nato forces. Its matter of shame. 

The truth shall come out, The NATO must answer, how it happen.

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## Jango

Does anybody seriously expect what the DG iSPR is saying to be fulfilled. Rehman Malik said that NATO supplies are stopped permanently.


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## qaisar52

Hi All,

The news just came that PAF is putting High Alert near Afghan Border like Installing active Radar System there and will Checkmate any intruder with effective response time. See what will happen actually?


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## Jango

qaisar52 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> The news just came that PAF is putting High Alert near Afghan Border like Installing active Radar System there and will Checkmate any intruder with effective response time. See what will happen actually?



Time to put the AWACS in action


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## Riseup

TaimiKhan said:


> The communication system between our ground forces is not good, its slow. There is no direct link of such posts with PAF assets. They may have first communicated with their company HQs, then Unit HQ might have been notified, then Brigade HQ comes in, Divisional HQ & then Corps level. I am not sure but don't think the news may have reached the highest level in 2 hrs and then a decision to be made and then PAF guys being notified, well i guess you may know how long our chain of command goes.
> 
> PAF has nothing to do in this nor is it their fault.





I dont understand after such a kind of strike in past till now why not our armed forces on afghan border still not equipped with advance communication system why not communication system improved between these posts and agile air cover not provided to them. Are still our generals thinking that NATO is friendly force and afghan border is a friendly border? It is a ridicules excuse that communication system is not so well, what they learn from the past strikes? And no improvement we are seeing on that side. The only way to stop such kind of strikes is should be an agile and powerful affective response that should bleed them.

Phol ke pati say kat sakta hay herey ka jigar 
Mard-e-nadan pay kalam-e-narmo nazuk be asar


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## Al Bhatti

qaisar52 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> The news just came that PAF is putting High Alert near Afghan Border like Installing active Radar System there and will Checkmate any intruder with effective response time. See what will happen actually?



After the "Osama raid" we heard exactly the same thing.

Now again same thing, nothing new.

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> So now we are to regard Rahman Malik as credible?
> 
> "Permanent" means a few weeks at the most.



well you still regard american statements as if they are gospel when we all know they are liars eg WMD. and their lies kill too

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## Peshwa

bilalhaider said:


> If that was the case, there would have been an encounter between the Pakistan Border Forces (this is different from the troops at the military outposts 2.5kms into Pakistani territory) & the Afghan troops. That did not happen. There were no encounter, there were no losses for the Pakistan Border Forces or the Afghan Forces. And in such a situation, the Afghan Forces would have known that they were crossing into Pakistani territory. Hence, this did not happen, & no indication from Pakistan or NATO that such a scenario took place. There have been no reports that such an incident took place.



I dont understand....

Isnt the problem of cross border terrorism and fluid movement of terrorists between Afg and pakistan compounded by the fact that Pakistan does not have an effective border patrolling force in the area, nor can it effectively mark its boundary with Afg due to tribal sensitivities?

So then how does the Pakistan Border forces even come into the picture? If they were that effective, we wouldnt be going back and forth on this issue now would we? Secondly, the ineffective demarkation makes the incursion scenario an option as well..

Nevertheless, im willing to wait for this news to unfold...Id rather not go around in circles arguing about something that you nor I can put our weight behind...

Wait and watch as I said earlier..

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## 53fd

Peshwa said:


> Isnt the problem of cross border terrorism and fluid movement of terrorists between Afg and pakistan compounded by the fact that Pakistan does not have an effective border patrolling force in the area, nor can it effectively mark its boundary with Afg due to tribal sensitivities?



There was not an adequate troop presence in the border regions of the FATA before, which resulted in the high infiltration of terrorists from Afghanistan into Pakistan (& vice versa). As the Pakistan Army has conducted operations in the FATA extremely successfully, it has managed to regain the control of these border regions. If you read the ISPR statement, the posts were specifically setup to stop the cross border infiltration of Afghan terrorists from Afghanistan into Mohmand. About 10 days ago, many Afghan terrorists trying to infiltrate into Mohmand from Afghanistan were killed by the border security personnel.

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## InFn-0

From what i can understand the troops of NATO or US or whoever were inside Pak territory were trying to pull off another OBL stunt when they got caught and fired upon by the Pakistani troops, and that is when they called the attack helis and the sh!t hit the fan.

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## uswrld

Agni5000 said:


> Do you believe if they narrate? NATO saying they acted on self defense. Why are you not believing it?



We should believe as they speak truth and only truth. Even Obama said Raymond is diplomat.


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## SinoChallenger

InFn-0 said:


> From what i can understand the troops of NATO or US or whoever were inside Pak territory were trying to pull off another OBL stunt when they got caught and fired upon by the Pakistani troops, and that is when they called the attack helis and the sh!t hit the fan.


That sounds credible. It's slightly more probable than the US doing a targeted hit on sleeping Pakistani soldiers on the border. The least probable is a "mistake" by the US.

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## alimukhtar

All Ranks demanded strict action against NATO etc. to get revenge & keep the moral up


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## Devil Soul

---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------


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## lem34

China condemns NATO strikes on Pakistani troops


China on Monday urged NATO forces to respect for Pakistan's sovereignty, saying that attack on Pakistani troops was shocking.
Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said that China was deeply shocked by these events, and expresses strong concern for the victims and profound condolences to Pakistan.
"China believes that Pakistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and the incident should be thoroughly investigated and be handled properly," he aid in a statement on the ministry's website.
US-led NATO choppers and aircrafts attacks two Pakistani posts near Afghan border on early Saturday which left two dozen soldiers martyred and 14 other injured.

China condemns NATO strikes on Pakistani troops | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> Same can be said about Pakistanis who are latching on to everything coming out of Pindi without questioning the basics and even making lame excuses for gaps in the story like
> 1. How come hekis and jets ingressed without being tracked by the Pakistani radar.. I dont buy the BS about terrain and how it is difficult to track a low flying heli.. Army is not sitting there to do easy jobs only
> 2. How come PAF didnt get scrambled
> 3. How come 2 hours long assault continued without any air support provided to the 2 posts
> 4. How come after the attack on the 1st post, the second post was also caught unaware
> 5. How come low flying helicopters continued the assault for over 2 hours without taking any damage
> 
> Hence, as I said, every thing is just speculation (except the unfortunate deaths of 28 soldiers).. We will get to know the answers to some/all these questions only when both the official versions are out


 
1) ISAF/NATO/US forces and their operations along the border with Afghanistan is an everyday occurring practice hence no fire from Pakistani side as any air violation is warned with a couple of warning shots and nothing more.
2) PAF was not scrambled as NATO/ISAF/US forces in Afghanistan are considered allies and such an attack was not expected.
3) The check posts weren't being pounded for 2 hours, the whole operation took 2 hours and before the soldiers knew how to respond they were under heavy fire.
4) Our soldiers weren't expecting an assault from an ally in either of the posts.
5) These were probably attack helicopters impervious to any ground fire and these posts were probably not armed with MANPADS or SAM sites.

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## lem34

ISLAMABAD &#8212; The NATO airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers went on for almost two hours and continued even after Pakistani commanders had pleaded with coalition forces to stop, the army claimed Monday in charges that could further inflame anger in Pakistan,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...s/2011/11/28/gIQAZ35t3N_story.html?tid=pm_pop

That says it all. Bastaxds americans continued for 2 hours-how could that be an accident????

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## Safriz

Aryan_B said:


> ISLAMABAD &#8212; The NATO airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers went on for almost two hours and continued even after Pakistani commanders had pleaded with coalition forces to stop, the army claimed Monday in charges that could further inflame anger in Pakistan,
> 
> Pakistan says NATO ignored its pleas to hold off during attack that killed 24 soldiers - The Washington Post
> 
> That says it all. Bastaxds americans continued for 2 hours-how could that be an accident????



and the burning question....where was PAF?...All fighter planes available could have been there in less than 20 minutes..but why didnt they?

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## lem34

safriz said:


> and the burning question....where was PAF?...All fighter planes available could have been there in less than 20 minutes..but why didnt they?



and what could have PAF done. Americans are winding pakistan up. ISI will respond at a time of its own choosing and they know it. we need to be careful but the shaheeds will be avenged. The americans know this will cost them.

---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 AM ----------




Al Bhatti said:


> And why would the generals order the use of force against their masters? Why you want them to loose their source of regular free meat.



Yea which country in the world could openly fight americans. Yes we could give america a bloody nose but it would be at a very heavy price for pakistan. Thats what americans want for us to blame ISI and army. They have been using propaganda and these tactics for sometime. Our response will be meusured and will happen in due course.

And americans do know that:

One Isaf source voiced concern that the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, could go much further and use its suspected influence over insurgent groups in the tribal areas along the Afghan border to launch reprisal attacks on Nato. "This will come back at us, and at a time and a place of their [the ISI's] choosing," the source predicted. In September the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said the ISI was using insurgent groups such as the Haqqani network to wage a "proxy war" in Afghanistan

Nato braces for reprisals after deadly air strike on Pakistan border post | World news | The Guardian


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## slytherin

i think this incident has a deeper angle everyone is looking at........why will NATO attack on these forces deliberately and jeopardize their own operation, it looks like more of a covert operation which was aimed at something else, but got messed somehow......


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## W.11

this happens when pakistani nation doesnt support the war but stil pakistani military happily goes to fata and kills people, and then they dont 'protect' innocent pakistanis of getting bombed by drones

not army and government is in trouble, talians are killing them, and now americans their so called allies are also killing them, and they have nothing to defend their infront of the nation, they cant become 'heroes' for sacrificing their lives now


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## lem34

slytherin said:


> i think this incident has a deeper angle everyone is looking at........why will NATO attack on these forces deliberately and jeopardize their own operation, it looks like more of a covert operation which was aimed at something else, but got messed somehow......



what is it with you read the earlier posts on this thread;

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...s-unprovoked-night-attack-91.html#post2332857

post 1357


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## W.11

safriz said:


> and the burning question....where was PAF?...All fighter planes available could have been there in less than 20 minutes..but why didnt they?



because the military is slave army to the US, its been taking directives from americans from day one, it was not about saving pakistan but fighting american war, hence proved!!

any soldier will now think twice before being posted to the area because he knows that he is fighting american war and that he can get killed by his allies anytime


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## lem34

KarachiPunk said:


> this happens when pakistani nation doesnt support the war but stil pakistani military happily goes to fata and kills people, and then they dont 'protect' innocent pakistanis of getting bombed by drones
> 
> not army and government is in trouble, talians are killing them, and now americans their so called allies are also killing them, and they have nothing to defend their infront of the nation, they cant become 'heroes' for sacrificing their lives now



KP please read my post 1357 its not so easy. Dont play into hands of americans its their dream that we should hate ISI and PA, they have been trying to demonise our armed forces for some time now

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## fd24

Nato Attack Martyred Soldiers Funeral Prayer Offered (27/11/11) - Pakistan Army - YouTube


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## mjnaushad

WARRANT said:


> So has PA declared the good talibans (Afghans) as bad this time of the year?



I think I answered this before... NATO and US are willing to talk with those Moderate what Pakistan call Good Taliban...... But as Indians we expect nothing from you but trolling.


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## mjnaushad

So the plan succeeded .... As everyone is blaming PA and PAF for the deaths.....


Good going guys....

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## lem34

JonAsad said:


> The PAF was busy- it was sleeping-
> So much for the PAF slogan-
> *Sleep Tight PAF is Awake !* Duh!!!
> Useless air force- (OBL Raid) second time it has disappointed me- with the history of other disappointments (71 and 99)-



Jon please be careful this is not as simple as it looks PA could give a response which would hurt americans but in return it would be at a very high cost to pakistan. I am not suggesting PA should do nothing but there is no country in the world that could suffer an attack by Nato without consequences. 

Our response needs to be carefully thought out. Americans our enemies want us to blame our army and ISI. Never let the enemy tactics work


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## Jango

DG ISPR has said that the PA informed the NATO commanders after half an hour, so, the operation lasted for 1 and a half hours after the PA informed the NATO officials.


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## Al Bhatti

So let them keep doing these attacks, and by the way the attacks are getting bolder and bigger with each attack. Wait for the next attack and the same press releases will be issued by the generals and the politicians with just the date changed along with the talk of "strongest reply will be given".


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## JonAsad

mjnaushad said:


> So the plan succeeded .... As everyone is blaming PA and PAF for the deaths.....
> 
> 
> Good going guys....


 
Lets us be more rational and let us all blame zardari and co?- 
What ever happens blame zardari and co-
The same zardari and co who wrote a letter to Mullens help save him from Pak Army- -


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## mjnaushad

JonAsad said:


> Lets us be more rational and let us all blame zardari and co?-
> What ever happens blame zardari and co-
> The same zardari and co who wrote a letter to Mullens help save him from Pak Army- -



Zardari and Kiyani both are NOT responsible for this attack....... The soldiers died defending this country.... From foriegn invaders ..... And If you believe Zardari and Kiyani are respobsible and all that NATO supply thign is drama... You all are free to start a movement to block this road.... Its one road not much difficult to block.....


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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> J...... PA could give a response which would hurt americans but in return it would be at a very high cost to pakistan. I am not suggesting PA should do nothing but .............
> Our response needs to be carefully thought out. ................



Okay, so what do you suggest over and above the re-arrangement of the deck chairs on the _Titanic_?



Aryan_B said:


> if you followed the americans and their suggestions re the silk road crap in turkey it would be transparent to you what american intentions are for our neighbourhood.



How are those "intentions" helped by the recent incident? There is nothing to be gained by NATO by alienating as large a fighting force in the region as PA. Could you please explain a bit in detail as to what are you trying to get across?

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## JonAsad

Aryan_B said:


> Jon please be careful this is not as simple as it looks PA could give a response which would hurt americans but in return it would be at a very high cost to pakistan. I am not suggesting PA should do nothing but there is no country in the world that could suffer an attack by Nato without consequences.
> 
> Our response needs to be carefully thought out. Americans our enemies want us to blame our army and ISI. Never let the enemy tactics work



Tell me the reason- 
through out the history- which nation was ridiculed like this before?- and it did not take action?-
through out the history- what made the nations go to war?- To save what?-


Are we Pakistanis setting a new president of baygherti?-
Amerikans knew- the only thing Pakistanis will do is blame their own army- because thats whats we are best at- its not far when whole world will remember us as "the best coward qoum" of all time-


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## Roybot

Apparently the two different posts were only 300 m from each other. 



> A host of leaders from NATO and the United States were quick to admit to the attack, apologise for it and call it a dreadful accident. That was just as well. But for Pakistanis, especially, it will be hard to accept it was a mere blunder. In the past, firing in Pakistan by American forces inside Afghanistan, against Taliban or other forces fleeing there for sanctuary, has killed one or two soldiers on the border. This time, say the Pakistanis,* two different buildings, 300 metres apart on two outcrops, were destroyed. The soldiers in each one, many of whom were said to have been sleeping, were 2.5km inside Pakistani territory, and the Americans reportedly had grid-references for these long-established army posts.*



Pakistan and America: Till deaths us do part | The Economist


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## BATMAN

nuclearpak said:


> Bravo to you childish thinking.



I don't think these childs are too young to understand that without presidential approval PA cannot open fire.
Remember the when DG rangers refused to take of assignment of Karachi without written permission to shot back at terrorists.


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## BATMAN

loveicon said:


> So - who should be blamed? India? This is happening just because of some ball-less traitor sitting at the top? I think it's time of accountability of military as well. Mr. Kayani should admit that he has failed to ensure the sovereignty of country and should pack his bag.



No he is not ball less only we are blind who fail to see his children are partying abroad while whole nation is at war.

You shall demand ghadari to bring his kids to Pakistan for some sun tan.


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## JonAsad

mjnaushad said:


> Zardari and Kiyani both are NOT responsible for this attack....... The soldiers died defending this country.... From foriegn invaders ..... And If you believe Zardari and Kiyani are respobsible and all that NATO supply thign is drama... You all are free to start a movement to block this road.... Its one road not much difficult to block.....



These soldiers didn't die defending their country- They were fast asleep- Remember?-

Lets assume- They died while defending our borders from foreign invaders- 
Now?-
Whats the responsibility of the Army that is alive now?-
"collect the bodies and bury them?-
Tell me it is a one off incident?-
Tomorrow they will do this again-
Whats the policy?-
"collect the bodies and bury them again?-
Loose the soldiers defending the territory and block the supply line?- Thats it?-
This is a height of bayghairti- 
Still dont blame the army for the mess- dont blame zardari and co for it- 
Lets all blame India- Shall we?-
Irony- isn't it?-


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## Al Bhatti

BATMAN said:


> I don't think these childs are too young to understand that without presidential approval PA cannot open fire.
> Remember the when DG rangers refused to take of assignment of Karachi without written permission to shot back at
> terrorists.



Dear Sir,

And why would the president order to do the needful when he knows he is not accountable for as long as he is in the presidential house (at least) and no one can question him, and he has appointed a person whom he can trust to be on his side and who can walk with him, But, when for a short period he felt his friend is not reliable he went to his master in USA but, it seems everything is back to normal between them isn't it?


----------



## iPhone

Devil Soul said:


> Capt Usman Shaheed ...Age of his Daughter 2.5 month ......



Oh god.

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## PoKeMon

Pakistan authorities have to act now to mete out the aspiration of the public and more importantly the low cadre armymen. It would be highly demotivating and demoralising for army if the message that "their lives value nothing to pak command" being sent out to them.

I am not sure of economic viability of pakistan in case of full fledged conflict, militarily or non coperation, with NATO but sometimes you have to take decision as a nation, for the nation. Pakistan had done it in past like nuclear test but what they do need today is political will and support of army, public will automatically follow in.


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## mjnaushad

JonAsad said:


> These soldiers didn't die defending their country- They were fast asleep- Remember?-



They were not on that Outpost for Picnic..... Do you want full check post awake 24/7..... They all were sleeping proves PA point that they were not attacking.... One fire from AK can wake up the whole village.....



> Lets assume- They died while defending our borders from foreign invaders-
> Now?-
> Whats the responsibility of the Army that is alive now?-
> "collect the bodies and bury them?-
> Tell me it is a one off incident?-
> Tomorrow they will do this again-
> Whats the policy?-
> "collect the bodies and bury them again?-
> Loose the soldiers defending the territory and block the supply line?- Thats it?-
> This is a height of bayghairti-
> Still dont blame the army for the mess- dont blame zardari and co for it-
> Lets all blame India- Shall we?-
> Irony- isn't it?-



Then lets show some ghairat and block the roads..... Civil disobedience..... Protests..... Etc etc..... The army is beghairat... You are not.... Go ahead do something.... PA is doing what is doable.....

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## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> 1) ISAF/NATO/US forces and their operations along the border with Afghanistan is an everyday occurring practice hence no fire from Pakistani side as any air violation is warned with a couple of warning shots and nothing more.
> 2) PAF was not scrambled as NATO/ISAF/US forces in Afghanistan are considered allies and such an attack was not expected.
> 3) The check posts weren't being pounded for 2 hours, the whole operation took 2 hours and before the soldiers knew how to respond they were under heavy fire.
> 4) Our soldiers weren't expecting an assault from an ally in either of the posts.
> 5) These were probably attack helicopters impervious to any ground fire and these posts were probably not armed with MANPADS or SAM sites.



This doesnt seem right.. Even if NATO patrols the border on a regular basis, this does not mean Pakistan forces stop guarding those borders. Specially after the Abbotabad and subsequent air space violations. Also if the whole operation took 2 hours, and remember, 2 separate check posts were attacked, I am sure there was enough time to report back the attack and get air support. I do remember reading somewhere on this thread that some reinforcements were sent.. The question is why not Air support when the attack was airborne..

About being impervious to ground fire, its a little tough to digest that a checkpost large enough to house scores off full military men, will have nothing in its arsenal to hit back at a low and slow flying attack helicopter.. 

Something surely is amiss here..

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Okay, so what do you suggest over and above the re-arrangement of the deck chairs on the _Titanic_?
> 
> 
> 
> How are those "intentions" helped by the recent incident? There is nothing to be gained by NATO by alienating as large a fighting force in the region as PA. Could you please explain a bit in detail as to what are you trying to get across?



If you read all my posts on this thread you would know that I have answered your questions earlier. So please read them and you will find answers there


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## Jango

BATMAN said:


> I don't think these childs are too young to understand that without presidential approval PA cannot open fire.
> Remember the when DG rangers refused to take of assignment of Karachi without written permission to shot back at terrorists.



I would refute you hear, if you are being fired upon, you have full right to retaliate back.

Now, it is another matter that with what you shoot with!

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## lem34

JonAsad said:


> Tell me the reason-
> through out the history- which nation was ridiculed like this before?- and it did not take action?-
> through out the history- what made the nations go to war?- To save what?-
> 
> 
> Are we Pakistanis setting a new president of baygherti?-
> Amerikans knew- the only thing Pakistanis will do is blame their own army- because thats whats we are best at- its not far when whole world will remember us as "the best coward qoum" of all time-



Jon have you read the posts earlier? It would seem you havent. I know cheng is not being genuine but I think if you had read my posts you would agree i am not suggesting we do nothing.

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## Najam Khan

JonAsad said:


> The PAF was busy- it was sleeping-
> So much for the PAF slogan-
> *Sleep Tight PAF is Awake !* Duh!!!
> Useless air force- (OBL Raid) second time it has disappointed me- with the history of other disappointments (71 and 99)-


 
Don't need to drag PAF in each and every violation. Air defence of each sector is managed by mixture of Hi/Low-Level radars supported by patrolling fighters. In case of western border, PAF maintains air defence by Hi-Level radars, with lot of separation between them....I doubt their is any PAF air defence radar/site near the place where this incident happened...helicopters might have taken advantage of height and blind spots.

Since out policy on western border is different then eastern border,, therefore the SOPs for scramble are not applicable. As NATO/US aircraft took part in activities near Pak-Afghan border on routine basis with lenient behaviour from Pakistani side, so its not a surprise that they easily hopped in while getting the advantage of 'routine mission'.

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## mjnaushad

karan.1970 said:


> This doesnt seem right.. Even if NATO patrols the border on a regular basis, this does not mean Pakistan forces stop guarding those borders. Specially after the Abbotabad and subsequent air space violations. Also if the whole operation took 2 hours, and remember, 2 separate check posts were attacked, I am sure there was enough time to report back the attack and get air support. I do remember reading somewhere on this thread that some reinforcements were sent.. The question is why not Air support when the attack was airborne..
> 
> *About being impervious to ground fire, its a little tough to digest that a checkpost large enough to house scores off full military men, will have nothing in its arsenal to hit back at a low and slow flying attack helicopter.. *
> 
> Something surely is amiss here..



Troops stationed their are to watch the borders to stop cross border movement of Taliban..... I dont know taliban use Chopper and we should have put a MANPAD there for the taliban......


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## lem34

Guys I am not for one moment suggesting that we do nothing. However we can not afford to have open warfare with america without hundreds of thousands of deaths. We can close the supply routes. Ironically the fuel for those helicopters probably came through pakistan. In my earlier posts I quoted americans stating that they expect that ISI will take action and they expect this to come back and bite them in the ***.

I regard american govt as pakistans enemy. They have been demonising PA and ISI for the last 12 months. You have to agree with me western press has been attacking PA and ISI to the nth degree. So if my enemy hates something in my country it means that something is not as compliant as it may seem. For gods sake they want us to hate our army cant you guys see that

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## Jango

karan.1970 said:


> This doesnt seem right.. Even if NATO patrols the border on a regular basis, this does not mean Pakistan forces stop guarding those borders. Specially after the Abbotabad and subsequent air space violations. Also if the whole operation took 2 hours, and remember, 2 separate check posts were attacked, I am sure there was enough time to report back the attack and get air support. I do remember reading somewhere on this thread that some reinforcements were sent.. The question is why not Air support when the attack was airborne..
> 
> About being impervious to ground fire, its a little tough to digest that a checkpost large enough to house scores off full military men, will have nothing in its arsenal to hit back at a low and slow flying attack helicopter..
> 
> Something surely is amiss here..



Attack helicopters, in this case most probably Apache, are bullet proof and kevlar covered in the Avionics bay, cockpit area, engine, and other crucial spots.

So, a G-3 or AK-47 fire randomly is not going to do much damage, and considering that the Helis don't really need to be so close to the action, they could have fired from far away. Night time is also another factor.

And you would not be expecting Taliban to have helicopters now would you?

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## Al Bhatti

mjnaushad said:


> Troops stationed their are to watch the borders to stop cross border movement of Taliban..... *I dont know taliban use Chopper and we should have put a MANPAD there for the taliban......*



But there had been *repeated* intrusions and attacks from the sky on the western border.

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## Jango

Al Bhatti said:


> But there had been *repeated* intrusions and attacks from the sky on the western border.



But you have standing orders. You just don't keep on giving out weapons and start firing. Things might change from now on.

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## JonAsad

mjnaushad said:


> They were not on that Outpost for Picnic..... Do you want full check post awake 24/7..... They all were sleeping proves PA point that they were not attacking.... One fire from AK can wake up the whole village.....



Great- Pakistan Army made an outpost for these soldiers- and all went to sleep-
Never heard of that tactic before- where were the scouts?- Isn't it a standard practice?- 
1 and half hour of the attack the whole village woke up- but the decision makers generals and PA were still sleeping-
That makes the whole situation more Great-



mjnaushad said:


> Then lets show some ghairat and block the roads..... Civil disobedience..... Protests..... Etc etc..... The army is beghairat... You are not.... Go ahead do something.... PA is doing what is doable.....



Me as a Pakistani is playing my part- 
The Army is for that purpose- Defend the sovereignty of a state- defend its people- if the army fails to protect its people- The people as they call it "bl00dy civilians" can only protest and lay the blame on The untouchables- the Army- 

Instead of asking me to do sme thing- demand from the army to concentrate solely on for the purpose it was built for-

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## Jango

JonAsad said:


> Great- Pakistan Army made an outpost for these soldiers- and all went to sleep-
> Never heard of that tactic before- where were the scouts?- Isn't it a standard practice?-
> 1 and half hour of the attack the whole village woke up- but the decision makers generals and PA were still sleeping-
> That makes the whole situation more Great-



Everything does not go to the jarnail straightaway. It was the company HQ, so the Company Havaldar or the Maj there would have contacted the Unit, which would have contacted the formation, which would have contacted the brigade, which would have contacted the Corp headquarter , and then it goes to the very high level that you are talking about.

Although, I agree, the response might have been slow.


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## Najam Khan

JonAsad said:


> Great- Pakistan Army made an outpost for these soldiers- and all went to sleep-
> Never heard of that tactic before- where were the scouts?- Isn't it a standard practice?-
> *1 and half hour of the attack the whole village woke up- but the decision makers generals and PA were still sleeping-
> That makes the whole situation more Great*-



JonAsad stop speculating things....its all BS. I bet none of us know what happened that night...then why write BS when their is no available information?

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## sreekimpact

I have closely watched General Kayani these years . He is a wise man and more capable than any other leaders in the present pakistan.

Im Damn sure that he knows that ... this not the time to go to war against USA .


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## JonAsad

NAjAM Khan said:


> Don't need to drag PAF in each and every violation. Air defence of each sector is managed by mixture of Hi/Low-Level radars supported by patrolling fighters. In case of western border, PAF maintains air defence by Hi-Level radars, with lot of separation between them....I doubt their is any PAF air defence radar/site near the place where this incident happened...helicopters might have taken advantage of height and blind spots.
> 
> Since out policy on western border is different then eastern border,, therefore the SOPs for scramble are not applicable. As NATO/US aircraft took part in activities near Pak-Afghan border on routine basis with lenient behaviour from Pakistani side, so its not a surprise that they easily hopped in while getting the advantage of 'routine mission'.



Well well-
When the first time an incident of this sort happened- Whose duty/ responsibility was it to make sure this sort of incident never happen again?- Whose responsibly was it to change the SOP's?-
Then OBL happened which showed the weakness on our western side- whose responsibility was it to rectify what went wrong?-

I blame the army- the air force- for not doing what it is meant for- 
Or tell me who to blame and drag here?-


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## lem34

sreekimpact said:


> I have closely watched General Kayani these years . He is a wise man and more capable than any other leaders in the present pakistan.
> 
> Im Damn sure that he knows that ... this not the time to go to war against USA .



Open warfare is not an option. It is accepted we would hurt americans with open warfare but hundreds of thousand pakistani lives are at stake. But I am sure our high command will respond with the options at their disposal

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## slytherin

Aryan_B said:


> Open warfare is not an option. It is accepted we would hurt americans but hundreds of thousand pakistani lives are at stake. But I am sure our high command will respond with the options at their disposal



which are??


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## Jango

JonAsad said:


> Well well-
> When the first time an incident of this sort happened- Whose duty/ responsibility was it to make sure this sort of incident never happen again?- Whose responsibly was it to change the SOP's?-
> Then OBL happened which showed the weakness on our western side- whose responsibility was it to rectify what went wrong?-
> 
> I blame the army- the air force- for not doing what it is meant for-
> Or tell me who to blame and drag here?-



SOP's don't change overnight.

Did you know what exactly happened at OBl, did you know the route they took? The kind of supporting equipment they had? The kind of helicopters they had? Everything is not as straightforward as it seems.


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## JonAsad

Al Bhatti said:


> But there had been *repeated* intrusions and attacks from the sky on the western border.


 
Exactly-
its becoming a routine-

Dont know who much more times we are going to repeat the same excuse again and again- 

Taliban doesn't have heli- we dont need air support to fight talibans- fcuk with this sh!t-

It is not talibans who are attacking and killing our soldiers any more -

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## Jango

slytherin said:


> which are??



Stopping NATO supply and cooperation of intelligence agencies and of political type. Not playing their servants. Not allowing them any room inside pakistan, expel their hundreds of useless personnel stationed here.


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## Al Bhatti

nuclearpak said:


> But you have standing orders. You just don't keep on giving out weapons and start firing. Things might change from now on.



Dear Sir,

Standing orders do change as the situation develops, don't they?, so the standing orders have not being changed after the repeated intrusions?.

The starting of a good response would have been with the ambassador asked to leave the country within 3 days for example instead of the Shamsi based being asked to be vacated in 15 days (a base which is non-relevant to US as they surely have other bases to operate from inside Pakistan from where the politicians and generals are earning money by "renting" them out) followed by a statement for permanent closure of their supply lines in air and on land

But as you said things are changing and also an US official fears that ISI might give it's reply at a timing of it's own choosing (if ever that reply occurs) will it happen after the the usual repeat of the action on the western border takes place?

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## Sugarcane

Aryan_B said:


> Guys I am not for one moment suggesting that we do nothing. However we can not afford to have open warfare with america without hundreds of thousands of deaths. We can close the supply routes. Ironically the fuel for those helicopters probably came through pakistan. In my earlier posts I quoted americans stating that they expect that ISI will take action and they expect this to come back and bite them in the ***.
> 
> I regard american govt as pakistans enemy. They have been demonising PA and ISI for the last 12 months. You have to agree with me western press has been attacking PA and ISI to the nth degree. So if my enemy hates something in my country it means that something is not as compliant as it may seem. For gods sake they want us to hate our army cant you guys see that



Why - PA can give response kill at-least equal number of bastards and admit that it's blunder and do apology?


----------



## JonAsad

nuclearpak said:


> Everything does not go to the jarnail straightaway. It was the company HQ, so the Company Havaldar or the Maj there would have contacted the Unit, which would have contacted the formation, which would have contacted the brigade, which would have contacted the Corp headquarter , and then it goes to the very high level that you are talking about.
> 
> Although, I agree, *the response might have been slow*.


 
you and i saying the same thing- blame the different- 
Tell me can i blame india for not improving our command and control system on western side?-

Am i wrong in blaming the army- the airforce- for letting this happen not once but multiple times?-
Am i worng for wanting the army- the airforce to improve its aerial effectiveness on western side?-
how many more soldiers we are willing to sacrifice like this- before any policy change?- 
Some body before you defended the Airforce- you defend the generals- 
Blaming the aliens will make every one happy- right?-


----------



## Jango

Al Bhatti said:


> Dear Sir,
> 
> Standing orders do change as the situation develops, don't they?, so the standing orders have not being changed after the repeated intrusions?.
> 
> The starting of a good response would have been with the ambassador asked to leave the country within 3 days for example instead of the Shamsi based being asked to be vacated in 15 days (a base which is non-relevant to US as they surely have other bases to operate from inside Pakistan from where the politicians and generals are earning money by "renting" them out) followed by a statement for permanent closure of their supply lines in air and sea.
> 
> But as you said things are changing and also an US official fears that ISI might give it's reply at a timing of it's own choosing (if ever that reply occurs) will it happen after the the usual repeat of the action on the western border takes place?



Yup, a reply might be in the offing.

But you don't just hand out MANPADS to every platoon after 5 or so incursions. We never had a incident like this before, in which the army suffered this much casualties in this manner. 2-3 jawans were martyred before, it may had been a mistake, but a dastardly attack like this may change things.


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## lem34

slytherin said:


> which are??



closing supply routes permanently is one. ISI gets blamed for helping insurgents anyway. If we are not supporting them start, if we are supporting them increase the support for starters. Coordinate with other countries in our neighbourhood that our interests converge with including China Russia and iran


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## Jango

JonAsad said:


> you and i saying the same thing- blame the different-
> Tell me can i blame india for not improving our command and control system on western side?-
> 
> Am i wrong in blaming the army- the airforce- for letting this happen not once but multiple times?-
> Am i worng for wanting the army- the airforce to improve its aerial effectiveness on western side?-
> how many more soldiers we are willing to sacrifice like this- before any policy change?-
> Some body before you defended the Airforce- you defend the generals-
> Blaming the aliens will make every one happy- right?-



The way you are going about it is wrong. Response is slow, the immediate contact time between PAF and PA is long.


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## JonAsad

NAjAM Khan said:


> JonAsad stop speculating things....its all BS. I bet none of us know what happened that night...then why write BS when their is no available information?


 
I am reading what the media is saying- Keep up plz- 
The slowness in our response when an attack on our soil is happening- is what i am hinting at-


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## Sugarcane

slytherin said:


> which are??



They have lot of options like

Stop NATO routes for couple of weeks
Register their protest
tell the nation that next time they will think twice for attack and then they will attack etc.


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## Najam Khan

JonAsad said:


> Well well-
> When the first time an incident of this sort happened- Whose duty/ responsibility was it to make sure this sort of incident never happen again?- Whose responsibly was it to change the SOP's?-
> Then OBL happened which showed the weakness on our western side- whose responsibility was it to rectify what went wrong?-
> 
> I blame the army- the air force- for not doing what it is meant for-
> Or tell me who to blame and drag here?-



In case of WoT, SOPs are related to foreign policy of Pakistan...the NA/APC had too much documented but implementation comes for written orders. After OBL, PAF changed its SOPs, for few months war-time deployments were made.

Any soldier can't fire a bullet (missile launch is even more complex) without orders. Even if a blip is seen on radar, it might have been interpreted as a friendly a/c from NATO/US...who was expecting such full scale, well planned operation against a border post?

However as nuclearpak mentioned, the hierarchy of command makes a delay in delivering information...add 2am time to it as well. Even if PA had contacted NATO/US they have made equal delay in reverting back the attacking aircraft.

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## Jango

slytherin said:


> i must point out that the number of US personnel in pakistan have decreased significantly after OBL.....supply is already stopped and it is unlikely to make any significant impact, especially if the operation was a deliberate one, which i leave to debate.....and i don't think becoming enemy of USA is such a good idea, from where will pakistan the spare parts of its main jet F16???



You don't need to be an enemy, but you don't have to a slave either.

We should stand up for our own rights, stop this damn supply, and then stop this cooperation with those CIA operatives. And they do exist. Just go to Islamabad Airport, Lahore airport, Karachi airport, peshawar airport etc etc. I can tell you where the agent stands at Islamabad airport.

---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------




NAjAM Khan said:


> In case of WoT, SOPs are related to foreign policy of Pakistan...the NA/APC had too much documented but implementation comes for written orders. After OBL, PAF changed its SOPs, for few months war-time deployments were made.
> 
> Any soldier can't fire a bullet (missile launch is even more complex) without orders. Even if a blip is seen on radar, it might have been interpreted as a friendly a/c from NATO/US...who was expecting such full scale, well planned operation against a border post?
> 
> However as nuclearpak mentioned, the hierarchy of command makes a delay in delivering information...add 2am time to it as well. Even if PA had contacted NATO/US they have made equal delay in reverting back the attacking aircraft.



SOP was a bit changed but still, shoot first time orders were not given AFAIK.

And according to DG ISPR, NATO was informed half an hour into the attack.


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## JonAsad

nuclearpak said:


> SOP's don't change overnight.
> 
> Did you know what exactly happened at OBl, did you know the route they took? The kind of supporting equipment they had? The kind of helicopters they had? Everything is not as straightforward as it seems.


 
These sort of incidents have not happened over night Sir-
You want me to scale down the time line of the first incident of this sort to the recent one?-
and the time we had to improve?-
or tell me what did we improve- for a change-


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## lem34

loveicon said:


> Why - PA can give response kill at-least equal number of bastards and admit that it's blunder and do apology?



Nato are saying it was an accident. We need to give them an accident. I agree but not open warfare. I am as emotional about this as any of you especially when you see pictures of pakistani children left as orphans but we must give a meusured response.


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## slytherin

nuclearpak said:


> You don't need to be an enemy, but you don't have to a slave either.
> 
> We should stand up for our own rights, stop this damn supply, and then stop this cooperation with those CIA operatives. And they do exist. Just go to Islamabad Airport, Lahore airport, Karachi airport, peshawar airport etc etc. I can tell you where the agent stands at Islamabad airport.



i don't know airports so i am not in a position to comment but do u think that this will have a significant impact???

it will give US more a reason to attack pakistan, because now they can claim that pakistani government is not supporting them but supporting terrorists.....


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## Al Bhatti

NAjAM Khan said:


> JonAsad stop speculating things....its all BS. I bet none of us know what happened that night...then why write BS when their is no available information?



It doesn't take that long if there is even a small heli intruding from the eastern side, or may be it is?


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## Jango

JonAsad said:


> These sort of incidents have not happened over night Sir-
> You want me to scale down the time line of the first incident of this sort to the recent one?-
> and the time we had to improve?-
> or tell me what did we improve- for a change-



Yes, we did improve, changes were made, some were left the same. Mistakes were made at some stage, they do happen. But the response by PAF was slow, but it could have been a multitude of reasons. You just have to be familiar with the internal system.


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## Irfan Baloch

mjnaushad said:


> Its a way to recording our protest..... Seriously are you this much dumb.... We all know they have atleast 6 Months supplies.... And if we dont open routes they'll get it from Russia..... That doesn't mean we should not record our protest.





exactly,
its one form of a protest even if the supplies that go from Pakistan are 1% or none at all. instead of launching attacks the governments . decrease Diplomatic and trade ties, Pakistan already done it by closing borders and deciding not to attend the Bonn meeting.

the hurt is that the attack was from an ally not the enemy. the Taliban have done much more harm but there is no complaint because we are at war with them,.

Some Indian trolls say where there is no air cover or radars? the answer is that Pakistan doesn&#8217;t view Afghanistan, Nato and Iran as its enemy and has no past or present record of any war.

does India have same amount of extensive radars and other early warning systems and air defence systems Installed with the Nepals border or the sea shores that are facing Sri Lanka? ok it might have them because it can spare the cash and resources but they wont be as extensive as are along its borders with China and Pakistan.

to date, taliban have never launched an air attack so no need was considered for air defence but if nothing comes out of the investigation and NATO tries to hush it all up then Pakistan might deploy air defence systems and use the same line as NATO does (to protect its troops and its people)
it would be a bad outcome because in the end it will be Afghanistan and Pakistan which will suffer due to prolonged instability and only Taliban will benefit.

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## Jango

slytherin said:


> i don't know airports so i am not in a position to comment but do u think that this will have a significant impact???
> 
> it will give US more a reason to attack pakistan, because now they can claim that pakistani government is not supporting them but supporting terrorists.....



We are not slaves to the yanks, so it means we are supporting the Taliban? great.

The example of airports I gave was that, there are agents in plain sight at airports, big , huge, bald guys in suits, so just wonder how many more could there be on the streets?


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## Najam Khan

Al Bhatti said:


> It doesn't take that long if there is even a small heli intruding from the eastern side, or may be it is?


 
No, eastern side is a different case. Fighters are scrambled whenever any aircraft comes near LoC. Even inside country the SOPs are very complex, an uninformed flight of a PA/PAF/PN a/c over marked airspace is considered violation.


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## unicorn

*Pakistan: NATO Ignored Pleas During Attack*


_*(ISLAMABAD) &#8212; The NATO airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers lasted almost two hours and continued even after Pakistani commanders had pleaded with coalition forces to stop, the army claimed Monday in charges that could further inflame anger in Pakistan*._

Pakistan: NATO Ignored Pleas During Attack - TIME


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## Najam Khan

unicorn said:


> *Pakistan: NATO Ignored Pleas During Attack*
> 
> 
> _*(ISLAMABAD) &#8212; The NATO airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers lasted almost two hours and continued even after Pakistani commanders had pleaded with coalition forces to stop, the army claimed Monday in charges that could further inflame anger in Pakistan*._
> 
> Pakistan: NATO Ignored Pleas During Attack - TIME



So Here is the answer for JonAsad...the did what they ahd planned. It was a properly planned and well executed attack.

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## ChinaToday

A protest in Lahore against the deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers in a Nato air strike. Photograph: News Pictures/Rex Features


China has lent diplomatic support to Pakistan, saying it is "deeply shocked" over the deaths of the Pakistani soldiers bombarded by Nato helicopters.

Beijing's support came as Afghan officials again claimed the air strikes were called in after they were first targeted from the Pakistani side of the border.

Warning of "serious consequences", the Pakistan military said the "unprovoked" attack on a border checkpoint in the Mohmand part of the tribal area on Saturday continued even after it contacted Nato to plead for the firing to stop. The military has not accepted Nato's explanation for what the coalition has called a "tragic incident". Afghan and Nato officials have insisted that they came under fire first.

The incident, which left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead, has thrown the coalition strategy in Afghanistan into crisis, with Pakistani co-operation considered vital in stabilising the country and bringing the Taliban insurgents into talks. Pakistan keeps more than 100,000 soldiers stationed along the Afghan border, supposedly in support of the coalition mission.

On Saturday, Pakistan closed the border for supplies to Nato troops in Afghanistan. There is no indication when the border crossing will be reopened. Half the supplies to coalition soldiers pass by land through Pakistan, including most of the fuel supplies, using local transport companies. On Monday, the All Pakistan Oil Tanker Owners Association said it would only resume transport if Islamabad and the Pakistani military accepted an apology for the incident.

The prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, said Pakistan would "revisit engagement with Nato and the International Security Assistance Force" following the casualties in Mohmand, the deadliest such incident since coalition forces entered Afghanistan in 2001.

Pakistan has suggested it may now boycott the 5 December international conference on Afghanistan's future at Bonn, in Germany.

The Pakistani foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, spoke to her Chinese opposite number, Yang Jiechi, in a "40-minute conversation in which she informed her Chinese counterpart of the extreme outrage in Pakistan on the unprovoked attacks", the foreign ministry said. It added that Yang Jiechi "expressed deep shock and strong concern", adding that "Pakistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity must be respected".

Islamabad considers Beijing to be its closest ally and an alternative partner to Washington and the west. China and Pakistan both oppose US plans to have bases in Afghanistan beyond the 2014 date for ending the coalition's combat operations there.

"China is deeply shocked by these events, and expresses strong concern for the victims and profound condolences to Pakistan," a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman, Hong Lei, said. "China believes that Pakistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and the incident should be thoroughly investigated and be handled properly."

On Monday, the Organisation of the Islamic Conference also condemned the attack on the checkpost, while over the weekend Turkey promised to raise the issue at Nato headquarters in Brussels.

There were further protests on the streets of Pakistan on Monday, including a boycott of the courts by lawyers. The striking lawyers in Karachi and Lahore chanted "Go America, go".

Nato is investigating the incident on the poorly marked border between the Afghan province of Kunar and Mohmand. Coalition and Afghan troops believe they received fire from insurgents operating from close to the Pakistani post, which is located 300 metres into Pakistani territory. Pakistan says there were no militants operating on its side.

A senior Afghan official told the Guardian that a combined Afghan-Nato squad had received incoming fire from "the so-called Pakistani post", prompting them to call for air support. "The most important point here is that they were receiving fire from the direction of that post."

The official, who did not want to be named, added: "The Pakistanis are blowing this thing totally out of proportion by responding the way they have, so severely and strongly. But we hope that they will at least come to Bonn and it will not affect the steps that we have started to take in terms or rebuilding our relationship with Pakistan."

Afghan and coalition officials have accused Pakistan repeatedly in the past of failing to act to stop Taliban militants using its territory.

Afghans living in Kunar said they were delighted by the strike against the bases, saying they believed Taliban fighters were being harboured by the Pakistani army.

"These terrorists wear civilian clothes and then when they have done their attacks in Afghanistan they go to the Pakistan checkpoints," said Qari Ehsanullah Ehsan, a tribal leader from the province. "Some of them wear fake beards and then put on Pakistani military clothes when they finish their operations. The people of Kunar are happy. We have been telling the Americans for a long time that the Pakistanis are bringing the Taliban to our villages."

China supports Pakistan in row over Nato border attack | World news | The Guardian

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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> So Here is the answer for JonAsad...the did what they ahd planned. It was a properly planned and well executed attack.



Then its safe to call it an act of war.

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## Sugarcane

unicorn said:


> *Pakistan: NATO Ignored Pleas During Attack*
> 
> 
> _*(ISLAMABAD) &#8212; The NATO airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers lasted almost two hours and continued even after Pakistani commanders had pleaded with coalition forces to stop, the army claimed Monday in charges that could further inflame anger in Pakistan*._
> 
> Pakistan: NATO Ignored Pleas During Attack - TIME



So, the only reason not to do this that it will inflame anger, it has nothing to do with national security.


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## ChinaToday

Brothers in arms Long live Pakistan China friendship

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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Then its safe to call it an act of war.



It is NOT "safe" to call it an act of war.

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## JonAsad

NAjAM Khan said:


> So Here is the answer for JonAsad...the did what they ahd planned. It was a properly planned and well executed attack.



More reason to blame the airforce isn't it?- 
Now dont tell me the commanders cannot call in an airstrike in such hopeless situations aswell- 

It all comes to this-
Do we have the equipment and adequate SOP's to retaliate-
Or 
Do we have the balls to retaliate-

Both way Army is to be blamed for letting this happen-

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## Bratva

NAjAM Khan said:


> So Here is the answer for JonAsad...the did what they ahd planned. It was a properly planned and well executed attack.



Which Means, American Special forces came 2.5Km inside Pakistan and when they were spotted by our troops they opened fire on them.

From the day one I'm hearing the bullshits of Nato that they fired upon us, Can Nato with respect tell us What the Hell, which Machine Gun can fire accurately at the distance of 2.5 KM except powerful sniper guns and which gun can accurately fires continuously 2.5 Km away target that made them attack us?

This lead to only logical conclusion, Afghani and Nato troops crossed our border for some secret mission, they were fired upon and reacted back killing 28 soldiers of ours.

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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> It is NOT "safe" to call it an act of war.



and when it is "safe" to call it an act of war-

Dont tell me- i know- for you it is "never"-

You should be happy- The army is full of similar minds-


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## iPhone

NAjAM Khan said:


> So Here is the answer for JonAsad...the did what they ahd planned. It was a properly planned and well executed attack.


Time to come out of this fcukin war. No more cooperation, no more supply routes. Let them drop their supplies from space for all we care.

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## SQ8

slytherin said:


> then how do u plan to respond to this "act of war"??? by closing supply routes????
> 
> sorry for being mocking but it baffles how can u guys be talking one thing and doing another????



Do you watch the news, read the forum..
If this forum is any gauge.. How do you us "guys" wants being translated into actions by our leadership "guys"?

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 AM ----------




VCheng said:


> It is NOT "safe" to call it an act of war.



Why? 
You can put rubber on it and call it an act of "backstabbing your ally and killing them" if that is kosher enough.

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## slytherin

Santro said:


> Do you watch the news, read the forum..
> If this forum is any gauge.. How do you us "guys" wants being translated into actions by our leadership "guys"?



i wasn't talking about that....i am saying that u are saying this was an act of war, this is nowhere near to an act on war, this was probably a covert operation planned at something but got messed up, probably due to involvement of some foreign elements.....


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## GURU DUTT

mafiya said:


> Which Means, American Special forces came 2.5Km inside Pakistan and when they were spotted by our troops they opened fire on them.
> 
> From the day one I'm hearing the bullshits of Nato that they fired upon us, Can Nato with respect tell us What the Hell, which Machine Gun can fire accurately at the distance of 2.5 KM except powerful sniper guns and which gun can accurately fires continuously 2.5 Km away target that made them attack us?
> 
> This lead to only logical conclusion, Afghani and Nato troops crossed our border for some secret mission, they were fired upon and reacted back killing 28 soldiers of ours.



Actually your quite close but as a patriot u wont & will not listne to the orignal version neither you would like an outsider's comment on this subject but my freind why is the GOP silent ever wondered what might be the real story , hope you would take my post positively, Thanks Again .


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## JonAsad

iPhone said:


> Time to come out of this fcukin war. No more cooperation, no more supply routes. Let them drop their supplies from space for all we care.



The vulnerable position we are in- you dont want to give away the only leverage we have?-


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> .....................
> 
> Why?
> You can put rubber on it and call it an act of "backstabbing your ally and killing them" if that is kosher enough.



That is not kosher either. Where is the final report from both sides?


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## SQ8

slytherin said:


> i wasn't talking about that....i am saying that u are saying this was an act of war, this is nowhere near to an act on war, this was probably a covert operation planned at something but got messed up, probably due to involvement of some foreign elements.....



We dont know that.. neither did the 28 troops.
It was not communicated.
So unless NATO comes out with that.. the story still stands at Nato forces attacking out troops without provocation and killing them mercilessly... By all definitions it is an ACT of war.


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## lem34

JonAsad said:


> The vulnerable position we are in- you dont want to give away the only leverage we have?-



Whats up Jon been converted by cheng??


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## lem34

With the exception of president most indians that have come on here along with "our" cheng have not been sympathetic with our tragic loss of life and I for one will not forget

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## SQ8

slytherin said:


> obviously pakistani leadership know better than u......had they also flown in emotions like u, they would have declared war, but they didn't.....so they know it was a covert operation, and thats why nothing was communicated, it was probably messed up by someone who would want something like this to happen.......



There is an overy emotional response, and a covert diplomatic query.
Both have their own purpose. An overy emotional response will appease both the public and disgruntled troops while backchannel inquiries and aggressive negotiations can take place.

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## fd24

VCheng said:


> It is NOT "safe" to call it an act of war.



Of course. To fly into a country that you pretend is an friendly nation - bomb the **** out of soldiers that were sleeping doe 2 hours is not an act of war. In fact its a way of showing Pakistan the USA way of negotiation. Come on Cheng what is it safe to call it? Hand of friendship. If anyone flew into your USA and did this you would be staining your western underpants and demanding a speedy response. Since the souls are those belonging to Pakistan then we have to tread very carefully and call it an accident and wait for the report bla bla bla. You have no morals. I respect your opinion but morally you have lost them - especially on this site.

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## JonAsad

Aryan_B said:


> Whats up Jon been converted by cheng??


 
yes- JonCheng is the new kid in the block- 

I support the army- but not blindly- The ones who support them blindly are only doing more harm to the nation- JonCheng-

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## JonAsad

Aryan_B said:


> With the exception of president most indians that have come on here along with "our" cheng have not been sympathetic with our tragic loss of life and I for one will not forget



You are wrong here- most of them are being sympathetic- apart from the ones banned- which are very few- 2 or 3 maybe-

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## iPhone

JonAsad said:


> The vulnerable position we are in- you dont want to give away the only leverage we have?-



the only and the best leverage guy. why wont we use it. we shouldn't intend on ever opening our routes anyway. let them go through russia, or the below water pipeline india is building, we dont care. let's see how feesible those routes are for them. let's see if arm twisting and bombing to stone age threats work this time. let's have them beg us for cooperation. if they dont, it's fine too. we can strangulate them in afghanistan. realize your worth and then you'll see what you can accomplish.


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## regular

Zarvan said:


> Where ever it took place the pint is 24 Soldiers of Pak Army were martyred and Army should have and hit back to the attackers and finished them of so they don't dare to do this act again


It is the real incompetence of our Army as well as Civil leadership cuz they've been so much busy in stashingup cash within their swill accounts and they never equipped our poor soldiers guarding our frontiers. Looks like all the money taken from IMF and US etc has been sent back to the Europe or US and nothing has been spent on our Army. Now the ruling elites shold not get their pay , must equip our all soldiers first on the western front with anti Aircraft missiles so that at least they can save their lives next time........


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## SQ8

slytherin said:


> u don't negotiate with countries after a so called act of war, which proves my point that this was not an act of war......



The Americans must have been absolutely stupid to be negotiating with the Taliban, or the NVA even as they bombed them.
South Korea must have been stupid to negotiate with the north via China, even after being attacked by artillery.
The British must have been stupid to engage Argentina via backchannels even after launching Operation Black Buck.

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## iPhone

more and more it's looking like Pakistani troops were executed.


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## JonAsad

iPhone said:


> the only and the best leverage guy. why wont we use it. we shouldn't intend on ever opening our routes anyway. let them go through russia, or the below water pipeline india is building, we dont care. let's see how feesible those routes are for them. let's see if arm twisting and bombing to stone age threats work this time. let's have them beg us for cooperation. if they dont, it's fine too. we can strangulate them in afghanistan. realize your worth and then you'll see what you can accomplish.



Few more deliberate incident like these- and we will beg them to take our route again- thats the sorry state we are in- 

The situation is bad- Last time this happened- we blocked the route and re opened it under pressure- this blocking of route is not working any more- 
I think
It is time to make use of the other available means- Like using some "balls"- Although having them is a different issue-


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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> It is NOT "safe" to call it an act of war.



is it safe to call it a good will gesture?

reminds me of the conversation of the 2 A-10 pilots who straffed on a British convoy in iraq and after realising the blue on blue they started crying. I wonder would they have done when they heard the Pakistanis telling them the same that they were firing on frindlies... what is safe to asume what their reaction might have been? giggles and laughter?

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## regular

iPhone said:


> more and more it's looking like Pakistani troops were executed.


Yes! absolutely they were executed in cold blood by these US/NATO devilz....But I guess Pakistan still don't know the evil plans of this US/NATO against them in very near future....they need to get ready for the unprovoked war/ attack.... and thats gonna happen in due time.....most probably within this 2012....its better don't go and sleep at night cuz they gonna bomb the whole country next time and they won't tell U or let U feel anything before the attack.....better learn lesson now.........get ready for the unprovoked coming attack while U be sleeping peacefully at night and never get chance to see the next morning...........


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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> ........... Come on Cheng what is it safe to call it? ..............




It is too soon to conclude anything.

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------




Irfan Baloch said:


> is it safe to call it a good will gesture?................



Let's wait for the investigation to complete, shall we?


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## iPhone

JonAsad said:


> Few more deliberate incident like these- and we will beg them to take our route again- thats the sorry state we are in-
> 
> The situation is bad- Last time this happened- we blocked the route and re opened it under pressure- this blocking of route is not working any more-
> I think
> It is time to make use of the other available means- Like using some "balls"- Although having them is a different issue-



blockade IS showing balls, man. Last time govt opened it under american arm twisting. Pak govt caved and reopened em. why americans use such method? cuz they need those routes. simple. They need those routes more than Pakistan needs what little peanuts amount it gets in return.


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## VCheng

iPhone said:


> blockade IS showing balls, man. Last time govt opened it under american arm twisting. Pak govt caved and reopened em. why americans use such method? cuz they need those routes. simple. They need those routes more than Pakistan needs what little peanuts amount it gets in return.



The blockade will be over soon again.

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## karan.1970

mafiya said:


> Which Means, American Special forces came 2.5Km inside Pakistan and when they were spotted by our troops they opened fire on them.
> 
> From the day one I'm hearing the bullshits of Nato that they fired upon us, Can Nato with respect tell us What the Hell, which Machine Gun can fire accurately at the distance of 2.5 KM except powerful sniper guns and which gun can accurately fires continuously 2.5 Km away target that made them attack us?
> 
> This lead to only logical conclusion, Afghani and Nato troops crossed our border for some secret mission, they were fired upon and reacted back killing 28 soldiers of ours.



I posted a news article from Sunday times that mentions Mortar fire, which is quite possible on a 2.5 km range..


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## fd24

VCheng said:


> It is too soon to conclude anything.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Let's wait for the investigation to complete, shall we?



No. Lets call it you are talking twaddle. As far as im concerned its a show of contempt and disregard for Pakistan's integrity. Its a show of we don't care - we will call it an act of war. You are entitled to an opinion but dont speak for anyone else but yourself. An American looking at your posts would cringe with embarrassment because you are more American than they are. 
You wait for your investigation to be complete as much as you want. Dont force your opinion on others.

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## fd24

GURU DUTT said:


> Kaif Bhai i thought that you are a sane guy , but??? i have lost my only brother when i was still quite young but i very well know how it feels if someone in army dies because of negligence or deu to incometence of seniors anyway i cant say about others but i never find it funny if a soldier dies (its irrelevent of which nationality) what i was suggesting that this was not a stry incident but a covert opperation deliberatlly sabotaged for some unkown gains if some very powerful people in GOP & GHQ , Thanks .



Guru sahib - Please go back through the pages and pages and see how disrespectful Indians are being. Even after getting banned they are changing I.P addresses and swarming back on here to give more abuse. Is that fair? Is that the Indian way? You have even been thanking the trolls? What does that say about you sir?
As you are aware i am constantly trying to spread harmony - but that doesnt mean i take constant abusive poor quality posts from you guys. 
I have respect for all soldiers and servants of the land - taking orders and fulfilling the aims of their countries - be it Indian or Pakistan. I am not going to take rubbish posts from across the border. The soldiers deserve more respect from all Guru. Please stand back and have a think. ALL SOLDIERS deserve the respect of all posters on here

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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> ...................a show of contempt and disregard for Pakistan's integrity. Its a show of we don't care - we will call it an act of war. ...........



The contempt and disregard for Pakistan's territorial integrity comes from WITHIN Pakistan, not me; I am trying to prevent that outcome, believe it or not.

Call it an act of war, but your words are twaddle unless that is the official government stance too. 

Then let's see what happens.


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## GURU DUTT

superkaif said:


> Guru sahib - Please go back through the pages and pages and see how disrespectful Indians are being. Even after getting banned they are changing I.P addresses and swarming back on here to give more abuse. Is that fair? Is that the Indian way? You have even been thanking the trolls? What does that say about you sir?
> As you are aware i am constantly trying to spread harmony - but that doesnt mean i take constant abusive poor quality posts from you guys.
> *I have respect for all soldiers and servants of the land - taking orders and fulfilling the aims of their countries - be it Indian or Pakistan. I am not going to take rubbish posts from across the border. The soldiers deserve more respect from all Guru. Please stand back and have a think. ALL SOLDIERS deserve the respect of all posters on here*




so true Kaif Bhai , but all five fingers are not same , but i would say again those 28 souls were if i may say murdered by none other than some bosses in GOP & GHQ only the wepon used was NATO , Thanks .


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## Hulk

NAjAM Khan said:


> So Here is the answer for JonAsad...the did what they ahd planned. It was a properly planned and well executed attack.


 
This sounds rediculous to me, it also sounds murder to me.


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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> The contempt and disregard for Pakistan's territorial integrity comes from WITHIN Pakistan, not me; I am trying to prevent that outcome, believe it or not.
> 
> Call it an act of war, but your words are twaddle unless that is the official government stance too.
> 
> Then let's see what happens.



Hey VC- Amrika was wrong in coming 2.5KM inside Pakistan territory and killing 25 Pakistani soldiers- isn't it?- Tell me YES or NO- Speak the truth-


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## VCheng

JonAsad said:


> Hey VC- Amrika was wrong in coming 2.5KM inside Pakistan territory and killing 25 Pakistani soldiers- isn't it?- Tell me YES or NO- Speak the truth-



I will wait for the final facts to be established before opining on this question.


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## Leviza

*and the facts from whom ?* maybe you can tell us who you follow for the facts ... might be the facts you will get are not facts but just lies????


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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> The blockade will be over soon again.



well, America doesn't need our routes right? so it should tell Pakistan, keep your routes closed, we're going the other way. Why rely on such an unreliable ally's supply route which keep opening keep closing every few months effecting American opp. Go the other way, simple.

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## IranZamin

* IRGC Commander Condoles with Pakistan over NATO Attack Casualties *

"No doubt, this gruesome crime which was committed with full disrespect for the international rules once again unveiled the true face of those who make untrue claims about support for peace and friendship and respect for the nations' rights and displayed to the world their aggressive and barbaric nature and aspiration for attaining devilish goals and illegitimate interests," General Jafari said in a part of his message.

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## Irfan Baloch

karan.1970 said:


> I posted a news article from Sunday times that mentions Mortar fire, which is quite possible on a 2.5 km range..



Bholay naas (insan) or Nath even
any thing at that range is a about and over 120mm and creates a big crator, it cant be disguised and cant be denied its pure BS.
it seems that the statements of NATO are morphing on the regular bases as soon as their previous claim is rubbished.
they claimed an automatic fire initially which only has an effective range round about give or take 1100 meters (machine guns).

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## SQ8

slytherin said:


> all those cases have arguments, US know they can't win, so they want to leave with a situation they can't lose.......
> South never said those were acts of war, there was firing, pakistani troops fire at india consistently, we don't call them acts of war....
> About brits, they got what they wanted, the falkland islands, so negotiations made sense after that.....



India is not allied with Pakistan, one expects that, we are in a undeclared state of war at the LOC on and off.
Operation black buck preceded the invasion of the falklands.

Here an ally attacked us, and what would have made sense as fratricide became murder when the ISAF forces refused to stop the attack even after being signaled it was blue on blue.


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## VCheng

Leviza said:


> *and the facts from whom ?* maybe you can tell us who you follow for the facts ... might be the facts you will get are not facts but just lies????



There are investigations on BOTH sides going on right now. Why not wait for both of them, and decide for yourself.


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## SQ8

Samah newsbeat program showing the post and its occupants a few days before the attack.
Will also show BBC report that falsifies facts. 
Watch.


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## rockstarIN

iPhone said:


> Time to come out of this fcukin war. No more cooperation, no more supply routes. Let them drop their supplies from space for all we care.



Will the old Bush question again surface? You are with us or..?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*NATO apology not good enough: Pakistan army*​
Published: November 28, 2011


ISLAMABAD: While foreign newspapers reported that the Nato attack on Pakistani troops in Mohmand Agency was provoked by firing from the Pakistani side, the Pakistani military denied the allegations and was critical of Natos apology.
Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Director General Major General Abbas said on Monday that Nato and Isaf are trying to wriggle out of the situation by claiming that the Pakistani troops fired at them first. Referring to the apology issued by Nato Chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen on Sunday, he told Express 24/7:

This (apology) is not good enough. We strongly condemn the attacks and reserve the right to take action.
Abbas said that the attack on Pakistani troops was indiscriminate, highly callous and irresponsible.
He reiterated that the Pakistani side did not fire towards the Afghan border, and said media reports that suggested otherwise are untrue.

There is no reason for the fire to be initiated from our area, he said, adding that Mohmand Agency has been cleared of militancy and that the army has regained control of the area.

We have cleared the area and lost 70 officers in the operation already. Now we have to face the brunt of Nato from the other side?

He stressed that the issue needs to be investigated, and the cause and use of weapons will be thoroughly explored.
In an interview on Sunday with British newspaper the Guardian, Abbas said he did not believe Isaf or Afghan forces received fire from the Pakistani side.

I cannot rule out the possibility that this was a deliberate attack by Isaf, said Abbas. If Isaf was receiving fire, then they must tell us what their losses were.

Pakistani army officials said the posts that were attacked were about 300 metres into Pakistani territory. Isaf officers, however, maintain that the border in that area is disputed.

Abbas told the Guardian that the firing lasted for over an hour, and that Isaf made no attempt to contact the Pakistani side.

This was a visible, well-made post, on top of ridges, made of concrete. Militants dont operate from mountaintops, from concrete structures.

...
NATO apology not good enough: Pakistan army &#8211; The Express Tribune

Pakistan has 'established the facts' and conducted its investigation and provided details into the incident, officially.

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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> There are investigations on BOTH sides going on right now. Why not wait for both of them, and decide for yourself.



very important thing that I want to highlight is, if there is an attack from Taliban in Kabul then the things can get even worse
if I was a taliban commander I would launch a suicide attack in Afghanistan that has a potential of causing heavy NATO/ Afghan casualities and then sit back with popcorns to enjoy another round of accusations from Afghan/ NATO side of ISI's involvement in the attack, that will yet again put the Pakistan on defensive and it will be declared guilty until it can prove otherwise.


how do you see the possible Nothern alliance mischief in this current attack? I mean they pretty much represent the Afghan national army and they are very candid in their hatred towards Pakistan, what better chance to inflict as much damage on Pakistan while the NATO forces are here?

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## 53fd

The interesting thing is, this incident might result in some 'quiet days/weeks' on the drones front, in terms of the drone campaign in Pakistan. If the drones keep reigning in like they have even after this event, then we can all safely say that the US doesn't mind how adverse events transpire in Pakistan.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

From Dawn news
*"The prime minister also said Pakistan had not yet decided whether to boycott next month&#8217;s Bonn conference on the future of Afghanistan."*

SIMPLY SHAMELESS GOP


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## iPhone

rockstar said:


> Will the old Bush question again surface? You are with us or..?



I already mentioned in my previous post the old threats of bombing to stone age wont work this time around. Times have changed, people have changed. Anyway, many Indian members and some Pakistani members are arguing that the US doesn't need Pakistan's routes as much as Pakistanis like to think. That's why I say US/Nato should encourage the closure of these routes. Why push Pak gov't to open them if they don't need Pakistani supply routes. Simply question.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Defence Secretary Leon Panetta is more than likely behind this atrocity, either directly or indirectly - the CIA under him did much the same, at one point killing dozens of tribal leaders at a gathering in a drone strike after RD was released, despite strong opposition from the US ambassador and SD.

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## Hulk

If the news on Time about Pakistan requesting to stop the attack is true, it is cold blooded murder. Also seems to indicate that NATO does not believe PA.


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## rockstarIN

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Defence Secretary Leon Panetta is more than likely behind this atrocity, either directly or indirectly - the CIA under him did much the same, at one point killing dozens of tribal leaders at a gathering in a drone strike after RD was released, despite strong opposition from the US ambassador and SD.[/QUOTE
> 
> If it is a deliberate act,you cant point out one person from the system coz he is outspoken.


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## iPhone

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *NATO apology not good enough: Pakistan army*​
> Published: November 28, 2011
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: While foreign newspapers reported that the Nato attack on Pakistani troops in Mohmand Agency was provoked by firing from the Pakistani side, the Pakistani military denied the allegations and was critical of Natos apology.
> Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Director General Major General Abbas said on Monday that Nato and Isaf are trying to wriggle out of the situation by claiming that the Pakistani troops fired at them first. Referring to the apology issued by Nato Chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen on Sunday, he told Express 24/7:
> 
> This (apology) is not good enough. We strongly condemn the attacks and reserve the right to take action.
> Abbas said that the attack on Pakistani troops was indiscriminate, highly callous and irresponsible.
> He reiterated that the Pakistani side did not fire towards the Afghan border, and said media reports that suggested otherwise are untrue.
> 
> There is no reason for the fire to be initiated from our area, he said, adding that Mohmand Agency has been cleared of militancy and that the army has regained control of the area.
> 
> We have cleared the area and lost 70 officers in the operation already. Now we have to face the brunt of Nato from the other side?
> 
> He stressed that the issue needs to be investigated, and the cause and use of weapons will be thoroughly explored.
> In an interview on Sunday with British newspaper the Guardian, Abbas said he did not believe Isaf or Afghan forces received fire from the Pakistani side.
> 
> I cannot rule out the possibility that this was a deliberate attack by Isaf, said Abbas. If Isaf was receiving fire, then they must tell us what their losses were.
> 
> Pakistani army officials said the posts that were attacked were about 300 metres into Pakistani territory. Isaf officers, however, maintain that the border in that area is disputed.
> 
> Abbas told the Guardian that the firing lasted for over an hour, and that Isaf made no attempt to contact the Pakistani side.
> 
> This was a visible, well-made post, on top of ridges, made of concrete. Militants dont operate from mountaintops, from concrete structures.
> 
> ...
> NATO apology not good enough: Pakistan army  The Express Tribune
> 
> Pakistan has 'established the facts' and conducted its investigation and provided details into the incident, officially.



what legal actions can Pakistan take against NATO at this time? the UNO?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*&#8220;This is not true. They are making up excuses. And by the way, what are their losses, casualties?&#8221; Major General Athar Abbas, Pakistan&#8217;s chief military spokesman, wrote to AFP in a text message.

He later told Pakistani television channel Geo that 72 Pakistani soldiers have been killed and 250 wounded by fire from across the Afghan border over the last three years.

Asked about expressions of regret by Nato he said: &#8220;We do not accept it because such kind of attacks have been taking place in the past&#8230; Our leadership will decide about further reaction.&#8221; British newspaper The Daily Telegraph on Monday quoted wounded survivors of the raid, who insisted they were victims of an unprovoked attack.*

Pakistan steps up rhetoric over lethal Nato raid | World | DAWN.COM


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

rockstar said:


> AgNoStIc MuSliM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Defence Secretary Leon Panetta is more than likely behind this atrocity, either directly or indirectly - the CIA under him did much the same, at one point killing dozens of tribal leaders at a gathering in a drone strike after RD was released, despite strong opposition from the US ambassador and SD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it is a deliberate act,you cant point out one person from the system coz he is outspoken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not because he is 'outspoken', but because of his past actions as Director of the CIA.
> 
> Please read through this thread:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/123292-cia-war-crimes-terrorism-pakistan.html
Click to expand...


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## SQ8

On the same program I mentioned.. excellent statement by the guest.
We were supposed to be allies, we KNOW where the other person's posts are.. you have visited that post for christs sake!
It is nothing more than a kill mission probably to incite a response.
Its the endgame and the US wants to try the good ol Laos and Cambodia trick here.
Except this ISNT laos and Cambodia..
They think it will end up destabilizing us? they are stirring up a hornets nest they have no idea how to smoke out.

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## IranZamin

It seems the American fanboys never cease to amuse
Pakistan says outpost attacked by NATO helicopter - Page 14
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...stan-s-prime-minister-issues-a-warning-to-U-S


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

iPhone said:


> what legal actions can Pakistan take against NATO at this time? the UNO?


I believe it is time to take the issue of US military operations in Pakistan to the UN - the UNSC resolutions do not provide the US cover for these operations inside Pakistani territory, and the drone strikes have the additional legal issue of being 'assassinations without trial' on the basis of 'suspicion and preemption', rather than 'self defence during combat'.

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## VelocuR

After destroyed this Checkposts with 28 martyers, how many Terrorists flow now into Pakistan? 

The attention is turned to focus on this blame game between NATO vs Pakistan, terrorists smartly on the run and hide (through the damaged checkposts).


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## IranZamin

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I believe it is time to take the issue of US military operations in Pakistan to the UN - the UNSC resolutions do not provide the US cover for these operations inside Pakistani territory, and the drone strikes have the additional legal issue of being 'assassinations without trial' on the basis of 'suspicion and preemption', rather than 'self defence during combat'.


 Taking to the UN ? UN is the last organization Pakistan should go. It is a puppet organization of the Israelis,Americans


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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> very important thing that I want to highlight is, if there is an attack from Taliban in Kabul then the things can get even worse
> if I was a taliban commander I would launch a suicide attack in Afghanistan that has a potential of causing heavy NATO/ Afghan casualities and then sit back with popcorns to enjoy another round of accusations from Afghan/ NATO side of ISI's involvement in the attack, that will yet again put the Pakistan on defensive and it will be declared guilty until it can prove otherwise.
> 
> 
> how do you see the possible Nothern alliance mischief in this current attack? I mean they pretty much represent the Afghan national army and they are very candid in their hatred towards Pakistan, what better chance to inflict as much damage on Pakistan which the NATO forces are here?



That is a very real danger. There must be plans to do something like that already; remember, USA and Pakistan are not the only players in the arena.


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## Emmie

*ISLAMABAD: The main Pakistani association that delivers fuel to Nato forces in Afghanistan said it would not resume supplies anytime soon in protest against an air attack that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers at the weekend.
*
Nawab Sher Afridi, general secretary of the All Pakistan Oil Tanker Owners Association, said the a*ssociation would reconsider only if the Islamabad government and the military accept an apology for the incident.*

Pakistan fuel suppliers protest against Nato attack | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

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## slytherin

IranZamin said:


> Taking to the UN ? UN is the last organization Pakistan should go. It is a puppet organization of the Israelis,Americans



then what do u suggest sir???


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## iPhone

bilalhaider said:


> The interesting thing is, this incident might result in some 'quiet days/weeks' on the drones front, in terms of the drone campaign in Pakistan. If the drones keep reigning in like they have even after this event, then we can all safely say that the US doesn't mind how adverse events transpire in Pakistan.



yup, one way of gauging how serious the military establishment has taken the stand is through the number of drone strikes in the country. Like how in the intial weeks of RD's case there was no drone strike. What a weird world we live in.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I believe it is time to take the issue of US military operations in Pakistan to the UN - the UNSC resolutions do not provide the US cover for these operations inside Pakistani territory, and the drone strikes have the additional legal issue of being 'assassinations without trial' on the basis of 'suspicion and preemption', rather than 'self defence during combat'.



Now that may be a very good suggestion worth exploring.


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## patna_ke_presley

IranZamin said:


> Taking to the UN ? UN is the last organization Pakistan should go. It is a puppet organization of the Israelis,Americans



Its not puppet but all big 5 should be agreed on something. It seems this case there are big 3- US, UK and France to use their vetoagainst Pakistan. Iran is lucky to have support of big 2- Russia and China.


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## Areesh

Pathetic no NATO or American soldier killed today in any attack by Taliban.

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## Greater China

*China supports Pakistan in row over Nato border attack*

China says it is 'deeply shocked' by Pakistani soldiers' deaths, as Afghan and Nato officials again say they came under fire first

Saeed Shah in Karachi and Jon Boone in Kabul
guardian.co.uk, Monday 28 November 2011 12.02 GMT 

China has lent diplomatic support to Pakistan, saying it is "deeply shocked" over the deaths of the Pakistani soldiers bombarded by Nato helicopters.

Beijing's support came as Afghan officials again claimed the air strikes were called in after they were first targeted from the Pakistani side of the border.

Warning of "serious consequences", the Pakistan military said the "unprovoked" attack on a border checkpoint in the Mohmand part of the tribal area on Saturday continued even after it contacted Nato to plead for the firing to stop. The military has not accepted Nato's explanation for what the coalition has called a "tragic incident". Afghan and Nato officials have insisted that they came under fire first.

*The incident, which left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead, has thrown the coalition strategy in Afghanistan into crisis, with Pakistani co-operation considered vital in stabilising the country and bringing the Taliban insurgents into talks. *Pakistan keeps more than 100,000 soldiers stationed along the Afghan border, supposedly in support of the coalition mission.

On Saturday, Pakistan closed the border for supplies to Nato troops in Afghanistan. There is no indication when the border crossing will be re-opened. Half the supplies to coalition soldiers pass by land through Pakistan, including most of the fuel supplies, using local transport companies. *On Monday, the All Pakistan Oil Tanker Owners Association said it would only resume transport if Islamabad and the Pakistani military accepted an apology for the incident.*

*The prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, said Pakistan would "revisit engagement with Nato and the International Security Assistance Force" following the casualties in Mohmand, the deadliest such incident since coalition forces entered Afghanistan in 2001.*

Pakistan has suggested it may now boycott the 5 December international conference on Afghanistan's future at Bonn, in Germany.

Islamabad considers Beijing to be its closest ally and an alternative partner to Washington and the west. China and Pakistan both oppose US plans to have bases in Afghanistan beyond the 2014 date for ending the coalition's combat operations there.

"China is deeply shocked by these events, and expresses strong concern for the victims and profound condolences to Pakistan," a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman, Hong Lei, said.
*
"China believes that Pakistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and the incident should be thoroughly investigated and be handled properly."*

On Monday, the Organisation of Islamic Conference also condemned the attack on the check post, while over the weekend Turkey promised to raise the issue at Nato headquarters in Brussels.

There were further protests on the streets of Pakistan on Monday, including a boycott of the courts by lawyers. *The striking lawyers in Karachi and Lahore chanted "Go America, go".*

guardian.co.uk


Now look at this and the Bin Laden incident. The US had no problem stomping on the sovereignty of the country that was its supposed ally. The way the situation is handled is very telling of how the US operates.

How many Pakistanis have died due to drone attacks and such? About 35-40% of the people killed by each of these drone attacks have been unarmed women and children.

America acts unilaterally, with zero regard for the safety and sovereignty of its supposed allies.

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## Areesh

Self Delete.


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## W.11

Aryan_B said:


> KP please read my post 1357 its not so easy. Dont play into hands of americans its their dream that we should hate ISI and PA, they have been trying to demonise our armed forces for some time now



i have been against the army actions since the very beginning, am i playing into american hands or our army which on the american directives went to FATA, sawat, bajour etc and did blood shed on american pressure!!

this war has costed both our civilian lives and soldier lives


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IranZamin said:


> Taking to the UN ? UN is the last organization Pakistan should go. It is a puppet organization of the Israelis,Americans



I did not say that should be the ONLY thing Pakistan should do.

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## Devil Soul

PAK have rejected UAE's request to reconsider the decision on Shamsi AirBase

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

according to duniya news uae fm was asking to delay evacuating shamsi airbase 
he met zardari and was told the decision is final according to duniya news sources

see how quick this guys comes in ?

TARIQ


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## J.Tariq

UAE asked Zardari not to vacate shamsi base saw all over the news
UAE Foreign Minister in Pak to discuss Shamsi airbase issue -

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## regular

Oh ! If this happens that we take it back from the USA , our Shamsi airbase, that will be good step in right direction.....


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## Devil Soul

J.Tariq said:


> UAE asked Zardari not to vacate shamsi base saw all over the news
> UAE Foreign Minister in Pak to discuss Shamsi airbase issue - *


Well as per Latest news 
PAK have rejected UAE's request to reconsider


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## Safriz

and your source is??????


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## Devil Soul

safriz said:


> and your source is??????


Yeah EXPRESSNEWS TV ...
as per report Zardari told the UAE delegate that the decision was taken by defense committee & he dont have any say in this decision, sorry ..

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum 

i heard the same news on duniya news
be firm and let these ppl vacate this airbase

TARIQ

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## W.11

i dont believe this 

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Army while expressing its disgust over Nato attacks has said that it does not accept Nato apology and that this action can lead to serious consequences, Geo News reported Monday.

According to Army spokesman Major General Athar Abbas, Nato&#8217;s regret over the attack is not enough. 

*He said that such incidents have happened in past that killed 72 soldiers and injured more than 250 troops in three years.*

72 soldiers have previously died because of these incidents, werent they reported before???, what the hell is this??, NATO target practicing on pakistani soldiers???

---------- Post added at 09:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------




TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> according to duniya news uae fm was asking to delay evacuating shamsi airbase
> he met zardari and was told the decision is final according to duniya news sources
> 
> see how quick this guys come is in ?
> 
> TARIQ



why the hell is UAE operating shamsi, which is supposed to be americunt drone operation


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## zaiby

Devil Soul said:


> PAK have rejected UAE's request to reconsider the decision on Shamsi AirBase



Great news...


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## Emmie

Good news, this shows Pakistan is serious this time...


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## Jango

KarachiPunk said:


> i dont believe this
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Army while expressing its disgust over Nato attacks has said that it does not accept Nato apology and that this action can lead to serious consequences, Geo News reported Monday.
> 
> According to Army spokesman Major General Athar Abbas, Nato&#8217;s regret over the attack is not enough.
> 
> *He said that such incidents have happened in past that killed 72 soldiers and injured more than 250 troops in three years.*
> 
> 72 soldiers have previously died because of these incidents, werent they reported before???, what the hell is this??, NATO target practicing on pakistani soldiers???



72 is the total losses, not in one attack.

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

Did anybody see the GEO show, Capital Talk today?

There is a big difference between the eastern border and western border. Some people put up really poor excuses that while we know what is going on in Indian airspace, we don't know in the western side. Both are non-comparable.


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## Imran Khan

what will next ? zaradri palace in dubai and every corrupt keep black money in UAE ? they can lost it lolz

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## W.11

nuclearpak said:


> 72 is the total losses, not in one attack.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------
> 
> Did anybody see the GEO show, Capital Talk today?
> 
> There is a big difference between the eastern border and western border. Some people put up really poor excuses that while we know what is going on in Indian airspace, we don't know in the western side. Both are non-comparable.



yes i thought we just had 2 casualities from TATTO on 30 sept and 24 this time, but its whooping 72 soldiers???

and pakistani soldier has not killed any of these TATTO guys??


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## PakShaheen79

Imran Khan said:


> what will next ? zaradri palace in dubai and every corrupt keep black money in UAE ? they can lost it lolz



Imran Bhai, apart from UAE, Saudi Arabia has also asked Pakistan to restrain but thing is that neither political nor military leadership can do that. here in Pindi, there is an open chat about a possible inernal coup in case military back tracks from decisions.

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## regular

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> according to duniya news uae fm was asking to delay evacuating shamsi airbase
> he met zardari and was told the decision is final according to duniya news sources
> 
> see how quick this guys comes in ?
> TARIQ


Looks like the UAE FM job is in big trouble...getting sandwiched between the two big powers US and Pakistan.....on Shamsi Airbase......

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## Jango

KarachiPunk said:


> yes i thought we just had 2 casualities from TATTO on 30 sept and 24 this time, but its whooping 72 soldiers???
> 
> and pakistani soldier has not killed any of these TATTO guys??



Well, it is our misfortune, that the GoP has not taken any stand to give the Army orders to shoot at first sight.

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## Imran Khan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Imran Bhai, apart from UAE, Saudi Arabia has also asked Pakistan to restrain but thing is that neither political nor military leadership can do that. here in Pindi, there is an open chat about a possible inernal coup in case military back tracks from decisions.



i will never believe in pakistani talk unless they prove it > pakistani top army air force navy and gov is biggest lier ever i seen .qes is why the hell still this bloody base was under USA? after usama raid they bash they take it back  simply they are shameless lairs


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

PakShaheen79 said:


> Imran Bhai, apart from UAE, Saudi Arabia has also asked Pakistan to restrain but thing is that neither political nor military leadership can do that. here in Pindi, there is an open chat about a possible inernal coup in case military back tracks from decisions.



Assalam alaikum

yaar aap k mu may ghee shakkar , baigharati ki bhi koi had hoti hay 
everybody know my feeling towards arabs but not over our dignity and pride
LET THEM KEEP THEIR ADVICES TO THEMSELVES

TARIQ


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## AHMED85

Humm They make me angry...  Can i Provide them the eye of their solders to see the difference between Solders and Terrorists...


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## VelocuR

*"From Raymond Davis and his gun slinging in the streets of Lahore to the Osama bin Laden incident, and now to the firing on Pakistani soldiers on the volatile Pakistan-Afghan border, things hardly seem able to get any worse," said the Daily Times.*

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## VCheng

Stealth said:


> INDIA and USA both continuously destroying Pakistan this **** churyaan pehananay wali Army and kiyani go **** urself!



Calm down please. Overly emotional responses will merely cause more complications. Now is a time to think logically more so than ever.

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## VelocuR

KarachiPunk said:


> why the hell UAE, guys please explain or my dog will shitt on you guys seriously



Calm down, man. UAE gave financial support to Shamsi Airbase, where Pakistan can't afford to operate. PAF sold this to UAE owners to take care of it. Pakistan bankrupts.

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## Machoman

Can Pakistan do same kind of a mistake couple of time with Nato planes. Next day all the attack will stop. Agar ek dafa bhi hum un ko yea bata dain tu phir woh asia karnay ki jurat nah karange....

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## Imran Khan

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> yaar aap k mu may ghee shakkar , baigharati ki bhi koi had hoti hay
> everybody know my feeling towards arabs but not over our dignity and pride
> LET THEM KEEP THEIR ADVICES TO THEMSELVES
> 
> TARIQ



begharti ki koi had nhi hoti dear there is only 1 way ghairat or beghairat thats it and at this time as a nation gov and forces we are beghairat

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## regular

nuclearpak said:


> Now this blockade should not be opened anytime soon.


I wish and pray to Allah SBWT that it will be closed permanently for the US/NATO supplies......Ameen......


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## W.11

RaptorRX707 said:


> Calm down, man. UAE gave financial support to Shamsi Airbase, where Pakistan can't afford to operate. PAF sold this to UAE owners to take care of it. Pakistan bankrupts.



but americunts also fly drones, so americunts dont pay the bill??


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## VCheng

Machoman said:


> Can Pakistan do same kind of a mistake couple of time with Nato planes. Next day all the attack will stop. Agar ek dafa bhi hum un ko yea bata dain tu phir woh asia karnay ki jurat nah karange....



As long as Pakistan is ready for the response that would follow a downed NATO warplane, sure, you can consider such an action.


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## Machoman

Jab tuk we not going to unite hum par asia humlay hota rahai ga, nothing new.....there few more coming soon. watch!


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## W.11

Machoman said:


> Can Pakistan do same kind of a mistake couple of time with Nato planes. Next day all the attack will stop. Agar ek dafa bhi hum un ko yea bata dain tu phir woh asia karnay ki jurat nah karange....



maybe they have technology to detect and shoot down the heli before it carries such mission


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## VCheng

regular said:


> I wish and pray to Allah SBWT that it will be closed permanently for the US/NATO supplies......Ameen......



Prayers need some tangible effort too to come true.


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## Leviza

yes calm down please.... but on the other hand Pakistani public needs strong steps being taken now ... enough is enough now..

we don't need emotional steps being taken but still it doesn't mean no steps...

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## VelocuR

KarachiPunk said:


> but americunts also fly drones, so americunts dont pay the bill??



Right, they haven't paid the bills since year ago. Irony, Pakistan let it continuing without complain. Not only this, trucks who supplied for NATO haven't been paid yet, the roads are bad and some damage now. Pakistan happily to let it continue free costs for US anything.


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## Emmie

KarachiPunk said:


> why the hell UAE, guys please explain or my dog will shitt on you guys seriously



BASE was given to UAE on lease in 1992, later in 2001 UAE gave its control to USA..

Read this...Shamsi Air base

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## Machoman

Zardari Khuda ko mano yaar aur kuch paisay Pakistan kay upar bhi lago.....kub tuk mulk ko khatay raho gay yaar? Ab sirf haddiyan bachi hain baap meray.....kuda ko maan...

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## DANGER-ZONE

orr kon kon se foj bethi hai Shamsi air base per ....... agalay attack per Aliens ka nam na aa jaye 
"Pakistan asked Alien force to evacuate Shamsi air base soon as possible......."

Cut it out AHs,akhir kitni dafa khali ho ga Shamsi air base ... pehlay bhe to huwa tha

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## President Camacho

I am unable to go beyond page 49 (40 posts per page settings)... any ideas how to fix that?


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## Machoman

KarachiPunk said:


> maybe they have technology to detect and shoot down the heli before it carries such mission



Dude we have all the tech but we are bunch of PU$$ies.....simple is that!


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## Leviza

and this is violation of terms on which this base is given to them.... it was given to UAE and they are not allowed to sub let it.. so anytime UAE might loose the right to use this base as well


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## fd24

VCheng said:


> As long as Pakistan is ready for the response that would follow a downed NATO warplane, sure, you can
> 
> What would the response be Cheng - you seem to feel eat and breath Nato loyalism. Bless us with your wisdom? Whats going to be the outcome if one of your beloved white pilots are shot down? Are they going to have a full flinched war with us? Are they going to nuke us? Or will they impose sanctions on us?
> My opinion is - do what they don't expect. Do nothing until they least expect. I trust and have faith the right decision will be made.

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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> orr kon kon se foj bethi hai Shamsi air base per ....... agalay attack per Aliens ka nam na aa jaye



shamsi is not even damn a base its air strip man in stones there is no bloody place for park even 5 fighters at shamsi its a card for pakistani besharam gov+forces leadership all times they use it .


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## VelocuR

President Camacho said:


> I am unable to go beyond page 49 (40 posts per page settings)... any ideas how to fix that?



Same here, firefox bug problems. Now transfer to Internet Explorer or Chromo. 

Don't use firefox.

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------




superkaif said:


> VCheng said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as Pakistan is ready for the response that would follow a downed NATO warplane, sure, you can
> 
> What would the response be Cheng - you seem to feel eat and breath Nato loyalism. Bless us with your wisdom? Whats going to be the outcome if one of your beloved white pilots are shot down? Are they going to have a full flinched war with us? Are they going to nuke us? Or will they impose sanctions on us?
> My opinion is - do what they don't expect. Do nothing until they least expect. I trust and have faith the right decision will be made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, you can ignore VCheng posts or use ignore lists. Please don't focus on him or pay attention to his words. It is just his opinion, we can use our own opinions.
Click to expand...

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## regular

VCheng said:


> Prayers need some tangible effort too to come true.


Sir! that tangible effort has already been done by the US/NATO. Thats why we hearing such news.. Do U want bigger effort from them , I mean to let them kill our 100 soldiers next time???..


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## Stealth

VCheng said:


> Calm down please. Overly emotional responses will merely cause more complications. Now is a time to think logically more so than ever.



maraan why i think or any one think logically when army and govt doing bullshit stuff without any logic ?? 

always keep quiet on every incident

can you explain which kind of logic is this ??


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## regular

Emmie said:


> BASE was given to UAE on lease in 1992, later in 2001 UAE gave its control to USA..
> 
> Read this...Shamsi Air base


So this means that our friends are working with our enemies ........


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## dabong1

I think this the fifth time the Shamsi Airbase has been vacated.


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## President Camacho

Thanks Raptor, just read your post on the LivePosts page. 

Will switch now.


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## Imran Khan

dabong1 said:


> I think this the fifth time the Shamsi Airbase has been vacated.



wrong 7th time dear

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

yes our politicians and foj r biggest jhootay in the world

TARIQ


----------



## soul hacker

Angry Pakistanis burn effigies of Obama







hun dil ko kuch sakoon phuncha ay

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## mymeaningislion

President Camacho said:


> You won't have to do it Aryan, there's already a whole team in this forum that cheers, laughs, and dances at the news of NATO troops perishing in Afghanistan. Many actually claim to throng _mithai_ shops, so they can celebrate those deaths in the most joyous ways possible.
> 
> Now let's count how many Americans have shown any sort of satisfaction/happiness at the news of the death of these 28 Pak soldiers... what do you say?



why not talk about american soldiers killing innocent iraqi and making pranks on them just killing thhem bruetly..... dear don't act like you don't know


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## soul hacker

SPRITE KUCH KER DIKHANE KE PYAS HAI

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## VelocuR

*Pakistan seals border in response to NATO attack*

Pakistan seals border in response to NATO attack &mdash; RT

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## patna_ke_presley

I was reading a News that Shamshi Airbase is owned by UAE, can any Pakistani elaborate this.


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## Emmie

regular said:


> So this means that our friends are working with our enemies ........



Well, the fact is Pakistan doesn't have any friend except China..

Read this, our friend UAE got displeased over leak about Balochistan airstrip (Shamsi airbase)..UAE was upset over leak about Balochistan airstrip | Pakistan-Papers | DAWN.COM

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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> ............. I trust and have faith the right decision will be made.



I also have trust and faith that the Pakistani leadership will make the right decisions for Pakistan. 



regular said:


> Sir! that tangible effort has already been done by the US/NATO. Thats why we hearing such news.. Do U want bigger effort from them , I mean to let them kill our 100 soldiers next time???..



I hope there are no further incidents of this type or magnitude.



Stealth said:


> maraan why i think or any one think logically when army and govt doing bullshit stuff without any logic ??
> 
> always keep quiet on every incident
> 
> can you explain which kind of logic is this ??



This is the logic of international geopolitics, the same that Agnostic Muslim cannot comprehend either, so you are in good company.

Sadly, I understand it only too well and will continue to try to explain it as best as I can.


----------



## Al Bhatti

NAjAM Khan said:


> No, eastern side is a different case. Fighters are scrambled whenever any aircraft comes near LoC. Even inside country the SOPs are very complex, an uninformed flight of a PA/PAF/PN a/c over marked airspace is considered violation.


 
*Maybe* next time if there is another attack / intrusion it will be possible that the helis/ aircrafts are forced to land inside Pakistan and the pilot and crew are taken into captivity, but would'nt it be too late? Is their any clause within the agreement we have with the NATO/USA/ISAF that does'nt allow us to do commit this act?

Still it would have been very much possible that the helis were forced to land inside paksitan and the pilots+crew taken into custody and put on military trial for hte killing of our men and at the same the ambasador kicked out of Pakistan and NATO supply lines (in air or on land) closed for good.

But our govenrmnt is running only after Shamsi airbase which is ir-relevant to US. Pakistan is just using it as a scape goat and have so far only closed the Land supplies of NATO, .

Is ther any indicitaion that the NATO planes are not allowed to use Pakisani Air Space also to transit their Cargo?

UAE tried for 5 years to get more flights in Canada and when they saw they are not successfull they ordered the closure of Camp Mirage (the main camp for the Canadians in the region for their troops and military supply in Afghanistan) and implemented "prior Visa" before arriving to UAE for Canadians (earlier they were enjoying visa on arrival).

UAE is also involved in this War on Terror in a way or other but not on the magnitude of Pakistan but when they saw they failed to achive somethng for the national intrests they stood against the Canadians.

So in view of UAE's response to non-coperation in a civilian issue by the Canadians, what should have been the reply of Pakistan whose men (miitary and civilian) are being killed regularly by USA/NATO/ISAF while being an active member for a longer period in this war on Terror than UAE.


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## Machoman

Emmie said:


> Well, the fact is Pakistan doesn't have any friend except China..
> 
> Read this, our friend UAE got displeased over leak about Balochistan airstrip (Shamsi airbase)..UAE was upset over leak about Balochistan airstrip | Pakistan-Papers | DAWN.COM



*Wah ji wah, Ulta choor kotwal ko dantay!*


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## pak-marine




----------



## Roybot

Senior U.S. Officer to Investigate Airstrike in Pakistan



> WASHINGTON  A senior American military official said on Monday that Gen. James N. Mattis, head of the militarys Central Command, would appoint a senior-ranking officer to lead an inquiry into the NATO airstrike the killed at least two dozen Pakistani soldiers over the weekend.
> 
> The inquiry will include a NATO representative and will examine what happened in the attack, which was operated out of Afghanistan, and how to avoid it from occurring again, the official said.
> 
> *The coalition forces tried to contact the Pakistani military on the other side of the border.* It is unclear whom they reached, but the coalition forces believed they were free to fire back, and the aircraft struck positions in Pakistan, according to diplomats.
> 
> *The Pakistani government said 24 people had been killed, but accounts near the scene in the Mohmand tribal region said the toll was as high as 28.*


----------



## Al Bhatti

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> according to duniya news uae fm was asking to delay evacuating shamsi airbase
> he met zardari and was told the decision is final according to duniya news sources
> 
> see how quick this guys comes in ?
> 
> TARIQ



Governent is running only after Shamsi airbase which is ir-relevant to US. Governemnt is just using it as a scape goat for silencing the public along with the closure of NATO Supplies by land temporarily.

They can still transit by air over Pakistan, or maybe not?

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## happycanuck

Emmie said:


> Well, the fact is Pakistan doesn't have any friend except China..
> 
> Read this, our friend UAE got displeased over leak about Balochistan airstrip (Shamsi airbase)..UAE was upset over leak about Balochistan airstrip | Pakistan-Papers | DAWN.COM



It is very rare to see or read a post by Pakistani national who calls "spade a spade". I have doubt about China's hidden agenda towards your country as well. Since your leadership Military and Civilians are engaged in selling off their own country behind the back of their citizens as per Dawn article. I would like to ask all the Pakistani on the forum, When are you going to rise up against the regime and take control of your nation? Any takers please write a detailed analysis on Pak-China friendship as well if you can.


----------



## Jango

Al Bhatti said:


> Governent is running only after Shamsi airbase which is ir-relevant to US. Governemnt is just using it as a scape goat for silencing the public along with the closure of NATO Supplies by land temporarily.
> 
> They can still transit by air over Pakistan, or maybe not?



Air is very costly.

And BTW, you can see everyday USAF aircraft landing in Chaklala airbase.


----------



## somebozo

China 'deeply shocked' over NATO attack on Pakistani soldiers

China 'deeply shocked' over NATO attack on Pakistani soldiers - Arab News

By SUI-LEE WEE | REUTERS
Published: Nov 28, 2011 10:21 Updated: Nov 28, 2011 10:21

BEIJING: China&#8217;s Foreign Ministry said on Monday it was &#8220;deeply shocked&#8221; about a NATO cross-border air attack that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers and urged respect for Pakistan&#8217;s independence and sovereignty.

&#8220;China is deeply shocked by these events, and expresses strong concern for the victims and profound condolences to Pakistan,&#8221; Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said in a statement on the ministry&#8217;s website.

&#8220;China believes that Pakistan&#8217;s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and the incident should be thoroughly investigated and be handled properly,&#8221; he said.

Pakistan has reacted with fury over the NATO cross-border air attack that could undermine the US effort to wind up the war in Afghanistan.

NATO described the killings as a &#8220;tragic unintended incident&#8221; and said an investigation was under way. A Western official and an Afghan security official who requested anonymity said NATO troops were responding to fire from across the border.

© 2010 Arab News

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## Al Bhatti

KarachiPunk said:


> why the hell is UAE operating shamsi, which is supposed to be americunt drone operation



Shaikh Zayed got it as a gift, his son turned it into a small airport and post 2001 US got access to it for their drones and surely it was with the approval of pakistan. It is not possible that USA got access to the base withoput Pakistani leadership knowing about it and approving it as in those days War on Terror was in full swing.

Probably UAE wants to keep the base for itself for something else, for a time when that base would be very important I wish you undersand what i have in mind !


----------



## Devil Soul

*Zardari rejects UAE request to review Shamsi airbase resolve*
Updated 20 minutes ago

ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari has refused a request by the United Arab Emirates to review Pakistan's decision of telling the US to vacate the Shamsi airbase within 15 days, Geo News reported. 

According to sources, UAE's foreign minister met President Asif Ali Zardari on Monday and requested to review Pakistan's decision in regards to the Shamsi airbase. 

President Zardari refused UAE's request and said that he could not change the decision of Defence Committee of the Cabinet, sources said.

At least 24 Pakistani soldiers embraced martyrdom and scores others sustained injured in NATO attack on a check posts near Afghan border on Saturday.

The Defence Committee of the Cabinet had decided to close NATO supply lines in Afghanistan with immediate effect and ordered the US to vacate the Shamsi Airbase within 15 days.


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## patna_ke_presley

Anyway, what will be China strategy because China don't want abrupt American withdrawal from Afghanistan as it feared more about training bases ETIM. Also, will China boycott Bonn conference.

---------- Post added at 10:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------




somebozo said:


> China 'deeply shocked' over NATO attack on Pakistani soldiers
> 
> China 'deeply shocked' over NATO attack on Pakistani soldiers - Arab News
> 
> By SUI-LEE WEE | REUTERS
> Published: Nov 28, 2011 10:21 Updated: Nov 28, 2011 10:21
> 
> BEIJING: China&#8217;s Foreign Ministry said on Monday it was &#8220;deeply shocked&#8221; about a NATO cross-border air attack that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers and urged respect for Pakistan&#8217;s independence and sovereignty.
> 
> &#8220;China is deeply shocked by these events, and expresses strong concern for the victims and profound condolences to Pakistan,&#8221; Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said in a statement on the ministry&#8217;s website.
> 
> &#8220;China believes that Pakistan&#8217;s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and the incident should be thoroughly investigated and be handled properly,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Pakistan has reacted with fury over the NATO cross-border air attack that could undermine the US effort to wind up the war in Afghanistan.
> 
> NATO described the killings as a &#8220;tragic unintended incident&#8221; and said an investigation was under way. A Western official and an Afghan security official who requested anonymity said NATO troops were responding to fire from across the border.
> 
> © 2010 Arab News



It seems more condolence towards Pakistan than criticizing NATO.

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## HellzHere

China's reaction is very soft..when you rewind back and see this:
Attack on Pakistan will be attack on China | Pakistan China Friendship

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## Al Bhatti

soul hacker said:


> SPRITE KUCH KER DIKHANE KE PYAS HAI



And see what part of the efigy is burning 

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 PM ----------




RaptorRX707 said:


> *Pakistan seals border in response to NATO attack*
> 
> Pakistan seals border in response to NATO attack &#8212; RT



Wasn't this done *before also*?


----------



## Emmie

happycanuck said:


> It is very rare to see or read a post by Pakistani national who calls "spade a spade". I have doubt about China's hidden agenda towards your country as well. Since your leadership Military and Civilians are engaged in selling off their own country behind the back of their citizens as per Dawn article. *I would like to ask all the Pakistani on the forum, When are you going to rise up against the regime and take control of your nation? Any takers please write a detailed analysis on Pak-China friendship as well if you can.*




There are numerous threads on PDF pertaining Sino-Pak relations. Please spend some time reading them you'll get detailed analysis there. For now please stick to the topic.


----------



## HANI




----------



## SinoChallenger

Aryan_B said:


> China condemns NATO strikes on Pakistani troops
> 
> 
> China on Monday urged NATO forces to respect for Pakistan's sovereignty, saying that attack on Pakistani troops was shocking.
> Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said that China was deeply shocked by these events, and expresses strong concern for the victims and profound condolences to Pakistan.
> "China believes that Pakistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity should be respected and the incident should be thoroughly investigated and be handled properly," he aid in a statement on the ministry's website.
> US-led NATO choppers and aircrafts attacks two Pakistani posts near Afghan border on early Saturday which left two dozen soldiers martyred and 14 other injured.
> 
> China condemns NATO strikes on Pakistani troops | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


*So it turns out it was a calculated modern warfare air and ground attack against a Pakistani outpost that has before hosted the Amerikkkans as guests and, even more, a follow up attack on Pakistan Army reinforcements with both helicopter and aircraft!*

This is no mistake. It is a deliberate attempt to push Pakistan Army back so the US can start occupying the frontier region. A deliberate punitive skirmish.

The statement from the Chinese foreign ministry is not the final word from the Chinese government. They are still discussing on what to do. Remember, we are in a leadership transition with a new leadership coming in March of next year.

*In my view, the Chinese government needs to immediately supply Pakistan with air defense weapons and advisors. Now that Pakistan has permanently closed the NATO supply route, the US will demonize Pakistan like it demonizes Iran, and eventually launch air strikes from the Arabian Sea or Afghanistan. I'm 100% for certain the Chinese government will do something decisive, it will not watch and do nothing.*

Another question, why would this happen just a year before US presidential elections?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

i might get burned for saying this; we should limit such cooperation with UAE too

not all of our geo-political interests even with UAE are merging ones....that's the reality.

---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------




HANI said:


>



that is an old video, has nothing to do with this attack.

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## Al Bhatti

nuclearpak said:


> Air is very costly.
> 
> And BTW, you can see everyday USAF aircraft landing in Chaklala airbase.



nothing is costly when you are dealing with a supply chain that connects the war front with the inventory. And again, all these years they were using the land route for let us say 35% (as some say), they have saved a lot of money transiting that 35% all these years by land. So now that savings can be applied to Air Transit. And add to that the savings by not paying transit fees. (It might be possible that USA would have paid some amount at least (even if minimal) for each shipment, which have ended in the bank accounts of the politicians and/or generals).

To give a small example some private contractors of US Army move machines like Hydraulic Excavators by Air almost daily and are still doing it when they can easily move them by land and sea, it is not costly when you are involved in a war and you have to keep the supply chain running for the sake of the survival of the men at the front.

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## President Camacho

Al Bhatti said:


> Governent is running only after Shamsi airbase which is ir-relevant to US. Governemnt is just using it as a scape goat for silencing the public along with the closure of NATO Supplies by land temporarily.
> 
> They can still transit by air over Pakistan, or maybe not?



The sentiment of the public rarely makes much difference in Pakistan's state policies. But this time, even from Rawalpindi we are hearing differing voices, eg. threats of derailment of Afghanistan endgame, permanent blockade of supplies, closure of Shamsi to US mil etc. 

So... what about the drone strikes? Will the drone strikes be ceased too? 

If not, and let's say the drones are really that accurate in targeting the militants that are threat to Pakistan... then what is the point of closing Shamsi airbase to the US? Drones can fly in from anywhere, esp Jalalabad, which is much nearer to the target area than is Shamsi.

In all honesty, if the sentiments in Pindi are really congruent to the ones we witness on the streets of Pakistan, then we shouldn't see any drone strikes at all, which people have claimed time and again that they take out more innocents than culprits.

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## Emmie

@ AZ I also fear a ban for supporting your views on Pak-UAE relations.


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## Al Bhatti

KarachiPunk said:


> yes evacuating americunts



Wrong, it is not USA.


----------



## W.11

Al Bhatti said:


> Wrong, it is not USA.



iran probably??


----------



## The Vicious Kind

Nothing is going to change.You may call me a bit pessimistic,but seeing what has happened in the past 2 years ,PA hierarchy will again show its negligence. 
1.Nato has been invading our airspace for quite sometime now.Has the PA,PAF moved its anti air assets to the western border,NO!
2.Have we ever blocked their nato supplies for more than one week ,NO!
3.The Shamsi air base,allegedly was returned to pakistan from UAE,now the military comes out and says that they want it to be vacated by the US personal.(today i was watching an interview of DGISPR on dawn,after the anchor raised the Shamsi air base question ,he refused to answers it).
People may say that they are trying to create differences between the public and PA ,but let me ask you this ,how can the public respect the military ,when it openly lies to its public,puts troops without proper air cover !.

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## TaimiKhan

IranZamin said:


> * IRGC Commander Condoles with Pakistan over NATO Attack Casualties *
> 
> "No doubt, this gruesome crime which was committed with full disrespect for the international rules once again unveiled the true face of those who make untrue claims about support for peace and friendship and respect for the nations' rights and displayed to the world their aggressive and barbaric nature and aspiration for attaining devilish goals and illegitimate interests," General Jafari said in a part of his message.



We should start thinking aligning ourselves with the Iranians. We should forget about this Shia-Sunni divide, and start working together. 

One joint military exercise is gonna be a treat for all. 

Sino-Pak-Persian alliance is what we should be looking into.

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## VCheng

TaimiKhan said:


> ........... We should forget about this Shia-Sunni divide, and start working together.
> ............



Good idea, but easier said than done, given the Saudi influence in Pakistan.

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## regular

Al Bhatti said:


> Shaikh Zayed got it as a gift, his son turned it into a small airport and post 2001 US got access to it for their drones and surely it was with the approval of pakistan. It is not possible that USA got access to the base withoput Pakistani leadership knowing about it and approving it as in those days War on Terror was in full swing.
> 
> Probably UAE wants to keep the base for itself for something else, for a time when that base would be very important I wish you undersand what i have in mind !


To use it against Iran if they need to......ummm....This is very sad on Pakistan's part if it happens......


----------



## TaimiKhan

VCheng said:


> Good idea, but easier said than done, given the Saudi influence in Pakistan.



We are going ahead with the pipeline till now even with US-Saudi pressure, whatever is vital to our interest can be pursued provide we get saner leadership. Rather we can play a role in soothing the relations between Saudis & Iranians. Iran is not going anywhere in coming years provided no military action happens. Thus why not accept the fact and try to resolve it and bring stability to the area.

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## TaimiKhan

Shabz Nist said:


> Do you honestly think that the sunni-shia-ahmedi-barelvi-deobandi rivalries will ever settle down ?! I maintain no such false notions......it will not happen in any of our lifetimes.



These same people from different sects, religions work and go along very well in the armed forces of Pakistan. 

Thus if environment is provided and conditions are such, they will all work very well. 

Ahmadi generals in this very army led Shia-Sunnis under one flag & vice versa, its not impossible.

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## VCheng

TaimiKhan said:


> We are going ahead with the pipeline till now even with US-Saudi pressure, whatever is vital to our interest can be pursued provide we get saner leadership. Rather we can play a role in soothing the relations between Saudis & Iranians. Iran is not going anywhere in coming years provided no military action happens. Thus why not accept the fact and try to resolve it and bring stability to the area.



Pakistan must get the energy the IP pipeline would provide, and to act as an intermediary between the great SA-Iranian divide would pay rich dividends I agree, but color me sceptical for now.


----------



## The Vicious Kind

President Asif Ali Zardari has refused a request by the United Arab Emirates to review Pakistan's decision of telling the US to vacate the Shamsi airbase within 15 days, Geo News reported.

According to sources, UAE's foreign minister met President Asif Ali Zardari on Monday and requested to review Pakistan's decision in regards to the Shamsi airbase.

President Zardari refused UAE's request and said that he could not change the decision of Defence Committee of the Cabinet, sources said.

At least 24 Pakistani soldiers embraced martyrdom and scores others sustained injured in NATO attack on a check posts near Afghan border on Saturday.

The Defence Committee of the Cabinet had decided to close NATO supply lines in Afghanistan with immediate effect and ordered the US to vacate the Shamsi Airbase within 15 days.


----------



## unicorn

UAE wale amrekioun ki waqalat karne ain hain.Lanat hai in par.

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## TaimiKhan

slytherin said:


> he should have requested kiyani instead......



Can't you Indians shut up with your sarcasm ??? What is the problem with you guys ?? Why can't you keep yourselves to Indian forums ?? If we have given you the liberty to speak here, why keep showing the Indian mentality non-stop ?? 

Army has let the civilian setup take all the shots in all these 3 years and you guys are still not happy ?? What is the issuewith you people ?? 

The decision was taken at the DCC, and still you guys saying go to Kiyani ?? 

Pakistan is destroyed due to the current political setup and Kiyani or armed forces have said nothing to them or stopped them and you people still come with your cheap sarcasm. Zardari's guys give free visas to American CIA men and you still say Kiyani should be asked. Zardari had his thugs have destroyed Pakistan and you still say go to Kiyani.

---------- Post added at 11:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------




KarachiPunk said:


> its time to put military under civilian proper control, they eat away our tax money, build business on it, act according to their will neglecting national interest and when they commit grave mistakes they keep nation and tax payers in the dark



You people disgust me. Pathetic.

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## W.11

slytherin said:


> i would support your view dude, but most pakistanis here support military control over pakistan, they regard civilian government as weak and military as strong.......



civilian govt has to prove they are not corrupt, army government are not that corrupt but they stop the civilian process for running the country and they impose their will, like musharraf dragging into the war, i dont think it might have happened if there was a civilian govt


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## VCheng

KarachiPunk said:


> its time to put military under civilian proper control, they eat away our tax money, build business on it, act according to their will neglecting national interest and when they commit grave mistakes they keep nation and tax payers in the dark


 


TaimiKhan said:


> ......................
> 
> You people disgust me. Pathetic.



I think the post makes some good points that need a proper rebuttal, not summary derision.


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## TaimiKhan

slytherin said:


> obviously u are writing under emotion....but military is still in control of pakistan......thats why haqqani had to resign.......although this discussion is highly off topic....



Traitors should be hanged, good for him that he resigned. But again Zardari appointed another of his loyalist, again telling Army has no control of the political setup. Watch both sides of the coin, not just one.

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> I think the post makes some good points that need a proper rebuttal, not summary derision.



Rebutted many times by many thoroughly, sane people understand, insane ones keep asking for rebuttals.

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## 53fd

While the loss of 24 of our brave boys cannot be replaced, & people might berate me for this, but I see this incident as a 'positive': this incident is a fitting reminder of the deficiencies in our 'system', in our country as a whole, & what needs to be done to rectify the situation.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> I think the post makes some good points that need a proper rebuttal, not summary derision.


As pointed out to you already - there are multiple threads on the forum where this discussion has taken place, read through them and respond there please.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Weve restored Americas standing in the world. - Barack Obama

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## President Camacho

VCheng said:


> Pakistan must get the energy the IP pipeline would provide, and to* act as an intermediary between the great SA-Iranian divide would pay rich dividends* I agree, but color me sceptical for now.



I don't know how can you say that. Such a scenario is impossible in near future. At best, Pakistan can play as the middleman between trade negotiations of Saudi and Iran - both rich in oil, wonder what would they have to offer each other. (I surely wouldn't advise playing a negotiator on religious issues - that's polonium!)

Secondly, Pakistan should avoid becoming the face of one rival to another. It did so in Afghanistan war... Unless played with sparkling genius, such a game can turn very ugly for Pakistan. 

Thirdly, we should understand the sway of the US in Sunni majority states. US is their friend, a powerful friend. Will the US allow KSA and others to give a demonized Iran a breathing space? I doubt it.

Lastly, will the oil coming from Iran through IP pipeline, be as cheap as the subsidized one that comes from KSA? The cost of gas burdened by the people of Pakistan is because of the taxes. Otherwise, it still comes at much cheaper rates.

I think we should talk about pipelines only after the pipes have started working and benefiting people unhindered for 2 years at the least.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> This is the logic of international geopolitics, the same that Agnostic Muslim cannot comprehend either, so you are in good company.
> 
> Sadly, I understand it only too well and will continue to try to explain it as best as I can.


The 'logic' of international geo-politics you support is the same as the 'logic' of slavery/feudalism.

The question is not one of 'understanding the logic of international geopolitics', but of whether Pakistan should simply accept 'the ground realities', or actively seek to change them with whatever means it can.

Your position is akin to the 'slave' giving up all hope for 'resistance' in order to end slavery.

Sorry, not every Pakistani is willing to be a Western boot licking slave such as yourself.

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## The Vicious Kind

bilalhaider said:


> While the loss of 24 of our brave boys cannot be replaced, & people might berate me for this, but I see this incident as a 'positive': this incident is a fitting reminder of the deficiencies in our 'system', in our country as a whole, & what needs to be done to rectify the situation.



What do you find "postive" about the incident.If this incident has proved anything,its that we have not learned from our mistakes(the obl raid,frequent NATO incursions ,Shamsi still under US control).

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## Safriz

any news on what type of planes NATO sent to kill pakistani soldiers?
kyani has already said that pakistani soldiers at border posts should take action if similar situation arises in future.....that means the soldiers are now allowed to fire at planes and helicopters?
now the big question.......are they trained and equipped to shoot down helivopters if this hapoens again?
which i assume will happen sometime soon.
as no guarantees or promises from nato can be trusted...they talk from tjeir back sides.


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The 'logic' of international geo-politics you support is the same as the 'logic' of slavery/feudalism.
> 
> The question is not one of 'understanding the logic of international geopolitics',* but of whether Pakistan should simply accept 'the ground realities', or actively seek to change them with whatever means it can.*
> 
> Your position is akin to the 'slave' giving up all hope for 'resistance' in order to end slavery.
> 
> Sorry, not every Pakistani is willing to be a Western boot licking slave such as yourself.



But to demand 'equality' at international level, among the comity of nations, nations (in this case Pakistan) must be strong & united internally. Is Pakistan ?

Being seriously fractured internally along ethnic,religious,sectarian lines and with a very weak law & order enforcement it is but natural not many take Pakistan seriously. If Pakistan demands to be treated on par with other nations, it needs iron out its domestic issues first...and that is only the beginning.

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## VCheng

President Camacho said:


> I don't know how can you say that. Such a scenario is impossible in near future. At best, Pakistan can play as the middleman between trade negotiations of Saudi and Iran - both rich in oil, wonder what would they have to offer each other. (I surely wouldn't advise playing a negotiator on religious issues - that's polonium!)
> 
> Secondly, Pakistan should avoid becoming the face of one rival to another. It did so in Afghanistan war... Unless played with sparkling genius, such a game can turn very ugly for Pakistan.
> 
> Thirdly, we should understand the sway of the US in Sunni majority states. US is their friend, a powerful friend. Will the US allow KSA and others to give a demonized Iran a breathing space? I doubt it.
> 
> Lastly, will the oil coming from Iran through IP pipeline, be as cheap as the subsidized one that comes from KSA? The cost of gas burdened by the people of Pakistan is because of the taxes. Otherwise, it still comes at much cheaper rates.
> 
> I think we should talk about pipelines only after the pipes have started working and benefiting people unhindered for 2 years at the least.



... which is why I also said *"but color me skeptical for now"*.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The 'logic' of international geo-politics you support is the same as the 'logic' of slavery/feudalism.
> 
> The question is not one of 'understanding the logic of international geopolitics', but of whether Pakistan should simply accept 'the ground realities', or actively seek to change them with whatever means it can.
> 
> Your position is akin to the 'slave' giving up all hope for 'resistance' in order to end slavery.
> ............................



Ignoring the unnecessary insult not expected from someone in your position on PDF at least, do you really see hope and energy and resistance rising in Pakistan anytime soon, with special reference to the present incident as a trigger?

Already, negotiations are underway to continue use of Shamsi AFB, and the "permanent" blockage may be only for 10 days.

You words may appear nobler and more idealistic than my brunt pragmatic ones, but facts do support my position more than yours, Sir.

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## W.11

can anybody confirm if the cutting NATO routes are 'permanent' or not, and if yes then why the trucks are on the standby position??


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## Safriz

@vcheng do you realize that this forum is about bringing hope to a discouraged nation.....? and about trying to show people of pakistan the positive side of the news...
too much negativity is going on all over the cyber and real world about pakistan..
if you want to do the same?

---------- Post added at 12:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 AM ----------




KarachiPunk said:


> can anybody confirm if the cutting NATO routes are 'permanent' or not, and if yes then why the trucks are on the standby position??


 
trucks on standby....yes.. but they are not going anywhere in the near future.

thats adding insult to the injury


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## VCheng

safriz said:


> @vcheng do you realize that this forum is about bringing hope to a discouraged nation.....? and about trying to show people of pakistan the positive side of the news...
> too much negativity is going on all over the cyber and real world about pakistan..
> if you want to do the same?



Please realize something: HOPE must have some SUBSTANTIVE basis to it, otherwise it becomes out and out misleading. That is EXACTLY why the whole nation is in the predicament that it is in, since as a nation we find it easier to keep on hoping rather than assessing the REALITY and then WORKING to improve it.

My words here may not be liked, but they are correct and well-intentioned for sure.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Ignoring the unnecessary insult not expected from someone in your position on PDF at least, do you really see hope and energy and resistance rising in Pakistan anytime soon, with special reference to the present incident as a trigger?
> 
> Already, negotiations are underway to continue use of Shamsi AFB, and the "permanent" blockage may be only for 10 days.
> 
> You words may appear nobler and more idealistic than my brunt pragmatic ones, but facts do support my position more than yours, Sir.


Your position is not one of 'X will happen because of the 'ground realities'' - your position is that the affected party should do nothing to challenge and change the ground realities.

As was the case with your dishonest recollection of the arguments made during the RD issue - your position was not one that supported justice and need for a fair trial and assessment of RD's status, nor in this case is your position one that supports justice and equality, while recognizing that international pressure and mutual dependence will result in compromises being made - your argument is that one should not even call for a change to the status quo.

You continue to act obtuse, perhaps deliberately, to hide the agenda in your arguments - 'understanding the ground realities of international geo-politics' is not the issue here, arguing against calls for change and calls for tangible actions to challenge the inequality and injustice in international geo-politics is the issue.

---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:10 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> My words here may not be liked, but they are correct and well-intentioned for sure.


Your words are analogous to arguing that slaves should stop trying to resist slavery because of 'ground realities' - your words are by no means 'well intentioned' - your arguments seek to perpetuate compliance with injustice and inequality internationally.

---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> Please realize something: HOPE must have some SUBSTANTIVE basis to it, otherwise it becomes out and out misleading. That is EXACTLY why the whole nation is in the predicament that it is in, since as a nation we find it easier to keep on hoping rather than assessing the REALITY and then WORKING to improve it.
> 
> My words here may not be liked, but they are correct and well-intentioned for sure.


Absolute hogwash - hope and hardwork are not mutually exclusive - hoping for change, aiming for difficult goals will in fact act as a catalyst for continued hard work.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> But to demand 'equality' at international level, among the comity of nations, nations (in this case Pakistan) must be strong & united internally. Is Pakistan ?
> 
> Being seriously fractured internally along ethnic,religious,sectarian lines and with a very weak law & order enforcement it is but natural not many take Pakistan seriously. If Pakistan demands to be treated on par with other nations, it needs iron out its domestic issues first...and that is only the beginning.


To 'SUCCEED' Pakistan perhaps must be the above, but to demand, argue and campaign for change does not require the above - the latter will set the stage for when the nation is politically and economically stronger.

The problem with VC's argument is that he seeks to discourage even 'demanding, arguing and campaigning for change'.


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## fd24

VCheng said:


> My words here may not be liked, but they are correct and well-intentioned for sure.



You keep repeating this statements on numerous occassions - you seem to be in a minority of 1. Ever thought of having a sanity test because only a fool would repetitively say the same thing like " MY WORDS ARE CORRECT?"
Cheng sahib it may be your opinion that you are correct. Our opinion may differ.
The more you repeat yourself the insane in the membrane you sound!! 

_Ordinarily he was insane, but he had lucid moments when he was merely stupid. _

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## W.11

superkaif said:


> You keep repeating this statements on numerous occassions - you seem to be in a minority of 1. Ever thought of having a sanity test because only a fool would repetitively say the same thing like " MY WORDS ARE CORRECT?"
> Cheng sahib it may be your opinion that you are correct. Our opinion may differ.
> The more you repeat yourself the insane in the membrane you sound!!
> 
> _Ordinarily he was insane, but he had lucid moments when he was merely stupid. _



Cheng sahib or Chenk sahib


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> To 'SUCCEED' Pakistan perhaps must be the above, but to demand, argue and campaign for change does not require the above - the latter will set the stage for when the nation is politically and economically stronger.
> 
> The problem with VC's argument is that he seeks to discourage even 'demanding, arguing and campaigning for change'.



You can 'demand' but without internal stability & unity no one will take your 'demand' seriously. Unfortunately the current state Pakistan finds itself in.

I cant speak for Cheng, but when even the citizens of Pakistan are not united and don't respect the institutions, expecting that same respect from foreigners is wrong.

In other words, you need not even demand anything. Just develop your nation internally and the respect will automatically come without you even demanding it.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> To 'SUCCEED' Pakistan perhaps must be the above, but to demand, argue and campaign for change does not require the above - the latter will set the stage for when the nation is politically and economically stronger.
> 
> The problem with VC's argument is that he seeks to discourage even 'demanding, arguing and campaigning for change'.



I seek to have less hot air "demanding, arguing and campaigning for change" and more tangible stuff, but since it is easier to talk than act, you are more comfortable with that approach that has not changed for 60 long years. Please do carry on as your world comes crashing down around you.

Pakistan can "demand" international respect all it wants, but others will accord it the respect it seeks only when Pakistan EARNS it the old fashioned hard way, just like everybody else.

_"Gumaan tumko ke rasta kat raha hai
Yaqeen mujhko ke manzil kho rahe hai"_


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> You can 'demand' but without internal stability & unity no one will take your 'demand' seriously. Unfortunately the current state Pakistan finds itself in.
> 
> I cant speak for Cheng, but when even the citizens of Pakistan are not united and don't respect the institutions, expecting that same respect from foreigners is wrong.
> 
> In other words, you need not even demand anything. Just develop your nation internally and the respect will automatically come without you even demanding it.


If 'no one takes Pakistan seriously', all the more reason to work harder and make the country stronger - it is however not a good reason to stop campaigning for an end to injustice and inequality - as I said, they can go hand in hand.


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## blain2

VCheng said:


> I seek to have less hot air "demanding, arguing and campaigning for change" and more tangible stuff, but since it is easier to talk than act, you are more comfortable with that approach that has not changed for 60 long years. Please do carry on as your world comes crashing down around you.
> 
> Pakistan can "demand" international respect all it wants, but others will accord it the respect it seeks only when Pakistan EARNS it the old fashioned hard way, just like everybody else.



Talking is fine. There are limitations to what Pakistan can do but we need to continue voicing our disagreement and protesting over this serious instigation.

Pakistan is doing what she can to respond. However a military response is not feasible and Pakistan needs to carry on with the current policy of not giving the ISAF/NATO a reason to ingress into Pakistan.

This reminds me of the situation we were faced with during the Russian-Afghan war. We will take casualties but our current policies will ensure that we keep the leverage on our side for the end game which hinges on us not taking on the ISAF in conventional way. While it is a minor indication, but it is also unprecedented for the Russians and Chinese to speak up on behalf of Pakistan.

Pakistan is already earning respect by saying no to the diktats. The alternate for Pakistan is to lay all of her interests at the sacrificial alter for the sake of others. At that point, you won't hear any negative PR nor see such murderous intransigence as you are witnessing now. But we would be the only losers at the end when all is said and done.

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## Tayyab1796

There r a few important questions ...and even considering these questions probably we can find answers :
*Is Shamsi air base really just an airstrip ? 
* Why is it so important that UAE's minister had to personally request to Zardari to let them hav it ?
* Why did we vacate this air base in the first place ? (a very important question...)
* Did Zardari really decline UAE's request or its just for common man's consumption by Zardari's spoksperson ?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> I seek to have less hot air "demanding, arguing and campaigning for change" and more tangible stuff, but since it is easier to talk than act, you are more comfortable with that approach that has not changed for 60 long years. Please do carry on as your world comes crashing down around you.
> 
> Pakistan can "demand" international respect all it wants, but others will accord it the respect it seeks only when Pakistan EARNS it the old fashioned hard way, just like everybody else.
> 
> _"Gumaan tumko ke rasta kat raha hai
> Yaqeen mujhko ke manzil kho rahe hai"_


Why should Pakistan do only one or the other? 

Pakistan should 'demand, argue and campaign for change' along with 'more tangible changes and hard work', domestically and internationally.

Why are you so opposed to Pakistan (or any country) campaigning for change while also seeking to strengthen itself? They are not mutually exclusive tasks.

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## W.11

blain2 said:


> Talking is fine. There are limitations to what Pakistan can do but we need to continue voicing our disagreement and protesting over this serious instigation.
> 
> Pakistan is doing what she can to respond. However a military response is not feasible and Pakistan needs to carry on with the current policy of not giving the ISAF/NATO a reason to ingress into Pakistan.
> 
> This reminds me of the situation we were faced with during the Russian-Afghan war. We will take casualties but our current policies will ensure that we keep the leverage on our side for the end game which hinges on us not taking on the ISAF in conventional way. While it is a minor indication, but it is also unprecedented for the Russians and Chinese to speak up on behalf of Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan is already earning respect by saying no to the diktats. The alternate for Pakistan is to lay all of her interests at the sacrificial alter for the sake of others. At that point, you won't hear any negative PR nor such murderous intransigence as you are witnessing now. But we would be the only losers at the end when all is said and done.



if you cant kill some NATOes which is very obvious, atleast refuse aid and close supply indefinitely without any conditions or back door dealings


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If 'no one takes Pakistan seriously', all the more reason to work harder and make the country stronger - it is however not a good reason to stop campaigning for an end to injustice and inequality - as I said, they can go hand in hand.



Exactly it is all the more reason to work towards achieving stability internally and not just put the blame on others and sit back waiting for the respect to come.

No its not a hand-in-hand process, a semblance of the former is needed for the latter. You have plenty of examples around like China.


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## President Camacho

US vows to &#8216;carry on&#8217; after Pakistan cuts supplies

WASHINGTON: The US military will press ahead with its war effort in Afghanistan despite Pakistan&#8217;s decision to cut off supplies to Nato-led forces after lethal air strikes, the Pentagon said Monday.

Pakistan promptly sealed its border with Afghanistan to Nato supplies after allied strikes killed 24 Pakistani soldiers near the border on Saturday.

&#8220;The war effort continues,&#8221; press secretary George Little told reporters.

Asked how long US and coalition forces could operate without supplies from routes running through Pakistan, he said: &#8220;I don&#8217;t have a time line to share. But the important point to focus on is the war effort will continue. Everyone realizes we have an enemy to engage in Afghanistan and the US military is prepared to carry on.&#8221; Nearly half of all cargo bound for Nato-led troops runs through Pakistan.

Roughly 140,000 foreign troops, including about 97,000 American forces, rely on supplies from the outside for the war in Afghanistan.

But the United States also depends on Islamabad&#8217;s tacit cooperation to wage war against al Qaeda and Taliban militants inside Pakistan, with the CIA carrying out an intense campaign of air strikes using unmanned drone aircraft.

The top US and Nato commander in Afghanistan, General John Allen, has asked US Central Command to lead an investigation into the air strikes, Little said.

The American military&#8217;s Central Command oversees US forces in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

The Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) sent an initial assessment team over the weekend to the border to collect facts surrounding the incident, he said.

*Both Allen and the military&#8217;s top-ranking officer, General Martin Dempsey, spoke to the Pakistani army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, about the incident, he said.

&#8220;Obviously they did express their condolences and regrets but I think everyone realizes the facts need to be collected, analyzed and that the investigation needs to unfold,&#8221; he said.
*
*The Pentagon spokesman also said he could not confirm reports that Pakistan had banned US government aircraft or ordered the CIA out of the Shamsi air base, which has reportedly been used for US drone strikes against militants.

&#8220;I&#8217;m not aware of any US military personnel at that base,&#8221; Little said.

After the air strikes, Pakistan&#8217;s cabinet ministers and military chiefs ordered the United States to leave the Shamsi air base within 15 days.

The remote desert outpost in southwest Pakistan is reportedly used as a hub for covert CIA drone strikes, which Islamabad previously told the United States to leave in June.*

*The role of the air base remains unclear as the CIA also uses air fields in neighbouring Afghanistan to stage missile attacks with unmanned robotic planes against suspected al Qaeda and Taliban militants.*


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## blain2

Bhairava said:


> You can 'demand' but without internal stability & unity no one will take your 'demand' seriously. Unfortunately the current state Pakistan finds itself in.
> 
> I cant speak for Cheng, but when even the citizens of Pakistan are not united and don't respect the institutions, expecting that same respect from foreigners is wrong.
> 
> In other words, you need not even demand anything. Just develop your nation internally and the respect will automatically come without you even demanding it.



Pakistan is as united or divided as any other country in the World. Its just that many other countries do not have as many external factors to cater to as Pakistan does.

What most Pakistanis agree upon is that Pakistan cannot be made into the sacrificial lamb and give up all her regional interests just because the Americans decide otherwise. There is consensus on that and the future Pakistani stance would be much more mindful of the feelings that people have and the government will use this perception amongst its constituency to frame future policies.

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## sachin@india

Sorry to interrupt you guys but I have a question regarding the operational capabilities of Pakistani forces. The attack was carried for more than two hours. why there was no reinforcement and where was PAF who said recently said that they have made more than 5500 sorties in tribal area of Pakistan ?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Emmie said:


> @ AZ I also fear a ban for supporting your views on Pak-UAE relations.



well on the whole, relations are good....there's a lot of cooperation and mutual gains in the relationship

but there are issues where our interests are not only divergent --but they are actually clashing (e.g. Gwadar and stability in Iranian and Pakistani Balochistan)


Shamsi Air Base thing has always been surrounded in mystery, and caused confusions (even to me)....all the concerned should clarify their position to the public. Public isn't stupid -well not as stupid as they think at least

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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> Talking is fine. There are limitations to what Pakistan can do but we need to continue voicing our disagreement and protesting over this serious instigation.
> 
> Pakistan is doing what she can to respond. However a military response is not feasible and Pakistan needs to carry on with the current policy of not giving the ISAF/NATO a reason to ingress into Pakistan.
> 
> ............................
> 
> Pakistan is already earning respect by saying no to the diktats. ................



Agreed, but saying "no" to the diktats would have credence only if it remains a "no", without buckling at the knees, wouldn't you say?



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why should Pakistan do only one or the other?
> 
> Pakistan should 'demand, argue and campaign for change' along with 'more tangible changes and hard work', domestically and internationally.
> 
> Why are you so opposed to Pakistan (or any country) campaigning for change while also seeking to strengthen itself? They are not mutually exclusive tasks.



Agreed. I am not opposed to a campaign for changes; you and I only disagree on where the change should start. I say it should begin at home, which won't happen for the foreseeable future, while you say the international community should be the first to change, which it won't.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> Exactly it is all the more reason to work towards achieving stability internally and not just put the blame on others and sit back waiting for the respect to come.
> 
> No its not a hand-in-hand process, a semblance of the former is needed for the latter. You have plenty of examples around like China.


So what is your point in arguing with me?

My criticism was of VC's argument that Pakistan should not try to 'campaign, demand and argue' for change. I never argued that Pakistan should not 'work hard and improve its domestic environment'.

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## pakdefender

Should push comes to shove , we have enough capability both conventional , unconventional to cause serious damage to American led NATO forces in Afghanistan.

Keeping the supply lines shut indefinitly and publicaly following through on kicking out americans from Shamsi is vital for restoration on trust in the eyes of the public. This is VITAL!!

Killing as many NATO or American troops as we have lost is the right thing do and it must be done.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Agreed. I am not opposed to a campaign for changes; you and I only disagree on where the change should start. I say it should begin at home, which won't happen for the foreseeable future, while you say the international community should be the first to change, which it won't.


I don't think one has to be before the other - you are correct the change on the domestic front may not happen any time soon, but that is no reason to also stop campaigning for change in the international community.


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## sachin@india

pakistan should take her case to UN. there are lot of countries who are sympathetic to pakistan on that issue. A diplomatic offensive is needed.


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## slytherin

pakdefender said:


> Should push comes to shove , we have enough capability both conventional , unconventional to cause serious damage to American led NATO forces in Afghanistan.
> 
> Keeping the supply lines shut indefinitly and publicaly following through on kicking out americans from Shamsi is vital for restoration on trust in the eyes of the public. This is VITAL!!
> 
> Killing as many NATO or American troops as we have lost is the right thing do and it must be done.



and u are not thinking about the effect it will have on pakistan???


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't think one has to be before the other - you are correct the change on the domestic front may not happen any time soon, but that is no reason to also stop campaigning for change in the international community.



As long as you realize that the international community works in patently unfair and amoral ways, I have no problem with your stance, Sir.


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## SQ8

The current stance seems to be having some effect.
By overtly reacting with emotional effect(supply route closed, base cleared out..etc) the message to the world is being sent of drawing a line. Meanwhile.. covert acquiescence by the GoP on waiting for an investigation is keeping the thing going out of control(on a relative scale anyway).
For all the Brouhaha this episode may eventually end up the same way the RD episode did.. question is, how long before dissent starts to form in the military ranks?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> As long as you realize that the international community works in patently unfair and amoral ways, I have no problem with your stance, Sir.


While I can 'recognize the ground realities of international geo-politics', I do not have to 'accept' them.


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## pakdefender

slytherin said:


> and u are not thinking about the effect it will have on pakistan???



obviously we have to take the effects on Pakistan into account but a loss of 100,000 soldiers in a matter of days will cause unprecedented damage to the US so much so that it will no longer be in a position to effectively boss around the world and I assure you there is enough hatred against NATO and US forces building up that doing whatever it take to bring them down is not unthinkable


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## Dil Pakistan

I have gone through the pages of the thread since it was started. I have to say that the thread is full of (cheap) emotions, comments that Kayani is a weak general and American poodle etc etc. Probably, the most sensible analysis/comment was from a Chinese friend who tried show the picture of reasons behind this attack(i.e. what NATO/US wants to achieve).

They want to achieve:

1. Push the PA behind the lines they are protecting at moment which will result in teritorial gains for US

2. If they push PA back they can make inroads and filter more terrorists inside Pakistan and create mayhem inside Pakistan.

Kayani has wisely not shown unnecessary over reaction to the whole situation (however deeply painful it may have been for him). He has focussed himself on gathering intelligence, information, analyzing the situation and creating Pakistan's counter response. As a general this is what he expected to do.

This attack is very well planned, thought and executed. It may have far reaching consequences in the region. It may also be a strike to create response from PA and then (using it as an excuse) launch a bigger strike.

PA leadership has done very well.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> While I can 'recognize the ground realities of international geo-politics', I do not have to 'accept' them.



Of course, I understand the difference between recognition and acceptance, hence my careful wording.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Santro said:


> The current stance seems to be having some effect.
> By overtly reacting with emotional effect(supply route closed, base cleared out..etc) the message to the world is being sent of drawing a line. Meanwhile.. covert acquiescence by the GoP on waiting for an investigation is keeping the thing going out of control(on a relative scale anyway).
> For all the Brouhaha this episode may eventually end up the same way the RD episode did.. question is, how long before dissent starts to form in the military ranks?



Related to that, from CBS:


_*For Kayani the raid was a personal blow. Under mounting pressure from his increasingly anti-American middle-ranking officers, Kayani has tried to assuage their resentment to Pakistan's partnership with the United States and as well as the 4,000 military casualties in the fight against domestic insurgents &#8212; more than double the deaths among U.S. and NATO troops in 10 years of war in Afghanistan.

At a National Defense University session this year, Kayani was grilled for four hours by midlevel officers who wanted to know why they were fighting this war, according to a participant who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

"This is very serious for Kayani. The troops are so angry. They are supposed to be allies with the Americans, and the allies are killing them. He has to be sensitive to their feelings. He has to be careful about his own image and his own safety," said retired Lt. Gen. Talat Masood. "The trouble is Kayani cannot face his troops unless the Americans give a very strong statement that this was a genuine mistake, apologize and compensate in a very big way."*_

NATO raid in Pakistan undercuts rapprochement - CBS News

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## blain2

KarachiPunk said:


> if you cant kill some NATOes which is very obvious, atleast refuse aid and close supply indefinitely without any conditions or back door dealings



What aid? Do you even know how much of this much touted aid program has been delivered? At last count, only $160M of the 2.5B had come into Pakistan even though this aid program is 2 years old now. The Army chief made the unprecedented remarks that the military aid should be diverted. Currently, the only funds flowing into Pakistan are the CSF funds which is money owed to Pakistan for use of services, logistics and POL. The CSF funds will stop with the stoppage of the logistics from Pakistan.

Killing ISAF/NATO troops opens the door for them conducting operations inside of Pakistan at will, which cannot be allowed at any cost (short of an open war).

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Of course, I understand the difference between recognition and acceptance, hence my careful wording.


So shall I take that as a retraction of your earlier argument of Pakistan 'accepting ground realities'?


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## pakdefender

Santro said:


> The current stance seems to be having some effect.
> By overtly reacting with emotional effect(supply route closed, base cleared out..etc) the message to the world is being sent of drawing a line. Meanwhile.. covert acquiescence by the GoP on waiting for an investigation is keeping the thing going out of control(on a relative scale anyway).
> For all the Brouhaha this episode may eventually end up the same way the RD episode did.. question is, how long before dissent starts to form in the military ranks?



dissent in the military ranks is a very real possibility and I hope some visting NATO or American fat cat sees the light on the other end of a standard issue G3 really really soon.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Related to that, from CBS:
> 
> 
> .................The trouble is Kayani cannot face his troops unless the Americans give a very strong statement that this was a genuine mistake, apologize and compensate in a very big way."...............



A few nice words, a shovelful of dollars, and a pat on the back, and everything will be fine?

Does that sound familiar?

---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So shall I take that as a retraction of your earlier argument of Pakistan 'accepting ground realities'?



Not at all, given that Pakistan is much more than you or I.

(Please see the above response: THAT, Sir, is the reality, describe it any way you prefer.  )

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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> dissent in the military ranks is a very real possibility and I hope some visting NATO or American fat cat sees the light on the other end of a standard issue G3 really really soon.



Mutiny in the Army would spell the end for Pakistan, make no mistake about it.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Santro said:


> For all the Brouhaha this episode may eventually end up the same way the RD episode did.. question is, how long before dissent starts to form in the military ranks?



perhaps they are itching for dissent or for cracks and fissures to be formed...but they wont

''dissent'' (read criticism or asking questions) isnt entirely ''denounced'' in the military....as long as it doesn't get in the way of responsibilities, ability to function, and ability to comprehend and carry out orders


on a side note:




> 'I think we should go to the United Nations Security Council against this,' said retired Brigadier Mahmood Shah, former chief of security in the tribal areas.
> 'So far, Pakistan is being blamed for all that is happening in Afghanistan, and Pakistan's point of view has not been shown in the international media.'
> He called the attack unprovoked and said Pakistan should respond by shooting down NATO aircraft and keeping the supply lines closed.
> 'Those who say that Pakistan cannot afford a war with the U.S. and NATO, I think we should realize that U.S. and NATO also cannot afford a war with Pakistan.'
> Other analysts, including Rustam Shah Mohmand, a former ambassador to Afghanistan, said Pakistan would protest and close the supply lines for some time, but that ultimately 'things will get back to normal.'
> 
> 
> Read more: Pakistan gives US 2-week ultimatum to abandon 'secret' airbase and closes border | Mail Online





others may reject or ignore the sacrifices made by men like these....we never will. Their deaths will not go without consequences.


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## President Camacho

Someone mentioned the stance of the UAE on the use of Shamsi airbase, so sharing it in here:

Abdullah, Zardari call for closer bilateral relations







Shaikh Abdullah Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, UAE Foreign Minister, met Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari here yesterday as Pakistan grapples with the situation arising from attacks by Nato aircraft on two of the country's posts on the border with Afghanistan that killed 24 soldiers.

The UAE foreign minister and the Pakistan president held a one-on-one meeting which was followed by delegation-level talks, officials said.

An official statement said the talks covered a wide range of issues.

The statement said Shaikh Abdullah expressed hope that the existing close cooperation between the two countries would continue to grow with each passing day for mutual benefit.

*
The UAE foreign minister assured the UAE's continued support for the people of Pakistan in their fight against militancy and in the rehabilitation of people and infrastructure hit by natural calamities.*

Pakistan's Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar and Interior Minister Rehman Malek also attended the delegation-level meeting.

President Zardari said during the meeting that Pakistan greatly values its fraternal bonds with the UAE and is keen to expand cooperation with it in various fields.

Enhancing cooperation:

Zardari hoped that the existing Joint Ministerial Commission to provide a structured mechanism for promotion of economic relations would go a long way to enhance economic interaction between the two countries.

*He said Pakistan deeply appreciates the continued interest of UAE investors in Pakistan and added that UAE investors could take maximum advantage of the investment friendly policies of Pakistan in various sectors, including petroleum, banking, telecommunications and infrastructure.

He said Pakistan was keen to sign a free trade agreement with the Gulf Cooperation Council and would appreciate the UAE's support.*

Nato raid:

Shaikh Abdullah Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, UAE Foreign Minister, expressed his heartfelt condolences for the victims of the Nato air raid which led to the loss of many Pakistani soldiers when he was received by Pakistani President Asif Al Zardari in Islamabad yesterday.

*Shaikh Abdullah expressed his deep sadness over the incident, and called on Nato to issue an apology for the attack and to compensate the families of the victims.*

Zardari hoped the UAE-Pakistan joint ministerial committee would continue to enhance trade relations between the two countries.

-----------

I hope people notice the $ubliminal messages here.


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## Areesh

VCheng said:


> Mutiny in the Army would spell the end for Pakistan, make no mistake about it.



It would be a win win situation for your country. No???


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> A few nice words, a shovelful of dollars, and a pat on the back, and everything will be fine?


No, since none of that happened with the RD case (CSF arrears remain unpaid to the tune of almost $3 Billion, anti-Pakistan rhetoric went up, and the OBL raid took place)


> Not at all, given that Pakistan is much more than you or I.
> 
> (Please see the above response: THAT, Sir, is the reality, describe it any way you prefer.


The question is one of principle - your argument has been that 'ground realities should be accepted, and there should be no demands, campaigns and arguments for change' - whether the Pakistani leadership does that or not is a separate argument.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ........... whether the Pakistani leadership does that or not is a separate argument.



.... and the ONLY one that matters, no matter how "principled" the viewpoint.


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## unicorn

*Russian Foreign Minnister Lavrov condemns NATO air attack on Pakistan checkpoints*

_*Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has called for an investigation into the NATO cross-border attack on Pakistans checkpoints. In a telephone conversation with Foreign Minister of Pakistan, Hina Rabbani Khar, he emphasized the inadmissibility of violating sovereignty of states, including when planning and conducting counterterrorism operations, says a Foreign Ministry statement.

Lavrov "expressed his understanding of the stance adopted by the Pakistani leadership." Pakistans minister reported on the response measures taken by Islamabad in connection with the incident, that sparked a wave of public indignation throughout the country.

The Russian Foreign Minister expressed his condolences in connection with the death of Pakistani servicemen in the attack.

It was reported that NATO helicopters on Saturday attacked a Pakistani checkpoint near the Pakistani-Afghan border. As a result, 24 servicemen of the Pakistani army were killed.*_

FM Lavrov condemns NATO air attack on Pakistan checkpoints: Voice of Russia

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> .... and the ONLY one that matters, no matter how "principled" the viewpoint.


Again, whether it 'matters' or not is separate from your position that nations/individuals should not even campaign for change until they meet whatever pre-requisites you came up with.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> .... and the ONLY one that matters, no matter how "principled" the viewpoint.



Lets ask you a different question..perhaps one that may clear up both viewpoints.

It is justifiable for the general Pakistani public to grieve and express their anger, wish for justice in this matter and perhaps request an end to the WoT.. without realizing that the leadership may not take the wishes of its people into account(perhaps for the benefit of the nation in the long term) and that their outburst and the deaths of those soldiers will be in vain.

Or do you feel that the Pakistani people should understand that such incidents will not change the status quo by much, and as much as it will be cold hearted...it is a waste of energy to mourn those men anymore and expect justice as their deaths were in vain. the world is unjust, the bigger stick rules.. and we are not it...

Perhaps something else..?

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## pakdefender

VCheng said:


> Mutiny in the Army would spell the end for Pakistan, make no mistake about it.



Im not talking about mutiny , Im talking about acting on the call of duty that every soldier and officer of Pakistan Army has echoing in his heart.

All it will take is one Sherdil ...


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## CENTCOM

Dear Forum Members, our deepest condolences and prayers go out to the families of the Pakistani security forces killed in this tragic incident. Before we can comment any further, we would like to inform everyone that representatives from ISAF and CENTCOM will conduct an extensive investigation.  ISAF Commander General John Allen has declared that, &#8220;This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts.&#8221; There are many news reports releasing different analysis and accounts of this incident, but we ask that you wait for the investigation to be completed, and for the evidence and findings to be released, before drawing any conclusions. 

MAJ Nevers,
DET &#8211; U.S. Central Command
U.S. Central Command

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## SQ8

Till that happens Major..
We have only the word of our own military via ISPR.
Which states that our forces were attacked without provocation and that the attack continued even after distress calls of a "blue on blue" attack were made.
Both ISAF and CENTCOM must expedite this investigation since it is crucial to ensuring no further chasms appear in the relations between Pakistan and the United states.
The only people that benefit from such acts are those that perpetrate terror, people who are probably having a hearty laugh at this and preparing their next act against the ISAF.

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## pakdefender

CENTCOM said:


> Dear Forum Members, our deepest condolences and prayers go out to the families of the Pakistani security forces killed in this tragic incident. Before we can comment any further, we would like to inform everyone that representatives from ISAF and CENTCOM will conduct an extensive investigation. ISAF Commander General John Allen has declared that, &#8220;This incident has my highest personal attention and my commitment to thoroughly investigate it to determine the facts.&#8221; There are many news reports releasing different analysis and accounts of this incident, but we ask that you wait for the investigation to be completed, and for the evidence and findings to be released, before drawing any conclusions.
> 
> MAJ Nevers,
> DET &#8211; U.S. Central Command
> U.S. Central Command



Bot alert! LOL @ Mjor Nevers ... 

This is an automatated software employed by the CIA .. read about it here

Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media | Technology | The Guardian 

off topic but related:
CIA has a venture capital fund also called In-Q-tel (http://www.iqt.org/) that invests in future tech and I wont be surprised if this 'sock puppet' software is an outcome from there.
Unfortunately some of our own Pakistanis work in collaboration with these murderers to come up with innovative new products which are then deployed against us.

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## Sasquatch

Russia said it may not let NATO use its territory to supply troops in Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't seriously consider its objections to a U.S.-led missile shield for Europe, Russia's ambassador to NATO said Monday.

Russia has stepped up its objections to the antimissile system in Europe, threatening last week to deploy its own ballistic missiles on the border of the European Union to counter the move. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization says the shield is meant to thwart an attack from a rogue state such as Iran, that it poses no threat to Russia, and that the alliance will go ahead with the plan despite Moscow's objections.

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## pakdefender

How much foolish the americans must think we are that we talk to a bot and even give thanks to it!!

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## Guest01

I do not know if the following has been posted here already but it is quoting something interesting. It is quoting Gen. Athar Abbas that the posts were actually 300 yards from the Afghan border and not 2.5 Kilometers as has been mentioned repetitively for some reason otherwise. 

This puts Afghan and ISAF angle of attack from Pakistan posts at even higher credibility then. 300 yards is pretty able distance for even small arms fire, if we just have to believe that only small arms were used from Pakistani side.

Pakistan says NATO ignored pleas during attack



> Abbas said the two military posts, named "Volcano" and "Golden," were located on a ridge in Mohmand region around 300 yards (meters) from the border with Afghanistan. He said their exact location had been provided to NATO and that the area had recently been cleared of militants

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## J.Tariq

It is not actually shamsi it is actually shamshi. this is all is happening for public consumption because it is only of symbolic importance real deal is shahbaz air base and base near terbella (i saw terbella base for americans it is big very big) and these bases they will never vacate or forced to be vacated by GOP

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## President Camacho

pakdefender said:


> Bot alert! LOL @ Mjor Nevers ...
> 
> This is an automatated software employed by the CIA .. read about it here
> 
> Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media | Technology | The Guardian
> 
> off topic but related:
> CIA has a venture capital fund also called In-Q-tel that invests in future tech and I wont be surprised if this 'sock puppet' software is an outcome from there.
> Unfortunately some of our own Pakistanis work in collaboration with these murderers to come up with innovative new products which are then deployed against us.



He is not a bot man, come on. When he was a Captain, photographs taken by him were often used by reputed media outlets to portray the ongoing operations and trainings in Afghanistan. If you have not noticed, though rarely, he also takes part in debates here. 

With such hositility going on in this forum against NATO, we should appreciate that he came up to clear CENTCOM's position on the affair.

Why not show some patience and wait for the other side to tell its story as well?


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## Sasquatch

Russia NATO tensions heating ? seems true and with Putin returning it could intensify.

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## W.11

BOT 

centcom, what investigation??? you did this not for the first time and hopefully its not the last, investigation will be conducted, so what?? will the american general posted in afghanistan will face the charges for the killings of 24 of our man or not, if there is an investigation its the same as no invetigation

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## lem34

Actions speak louder than words. American action of killing our soldiers in not 1 base but 2 in pakistan says it all. If you americans are reading this we will look at your actions not your words.


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## unicorn

*Condolences*_is an expression of sympathy to someone who has experienced grief arising from death._

I want to ask the question that why NATO and USA is *sympathizing* us after killing our soldiers on our own soil?

Shouldn't they be apologizing?

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## W.11

pakdefender said:


> Bot alert! LOL @ Mjor Nevers ...
> 
> This is an automatated software employed by the CIA .. read about it here
> 
> Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media | Technology | The Guardian
> 
> off topic but related:
> CIA has a venture capital fund also called In-Q-tel (In-Q-Tel) that invests in future tech and I wont be surprised if this 'sock puppet' software is an outcome from there.
> Unfortunately some of our own Pakistanis work in collaboration with these murderers to come up with innovative new products which are then deployed against us.



very shocking, didnt know centcom is a bot


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Lets ask you a different question..perhaps one that may clear up both viewpoints.
> 
> It is justifiable for the general Pakistani public to grieve and express their anger, wish for justice in this matter and perhaps request an end to the WoT.. without realizing that the leadership may not take the wishes of its people into account(perhaps for the benefit of the nation in the long term) and that their outburst and the deaths of those soldiers will be in vain.
> 
> Or do you feel that the Pakistani people should understand that such incidents will not change the status quo by much, and as much as it will be cold hearted...it is a waste of energy to mourn those men anymore and expect justice as their deaths were in vain. the world is unjust, the bigger stick rules.. and we are not it...
> g
> Perhaps something else..?



Excellent questions.

It is perfectly justifiable, understandable and indeed necessary for the general public to express their grief and anger over this tragedy. However, this anguish should be directed at the proper quarters to demand accountability from the civilian and military leadership for not only this incident, but so many other previous things too. 

What has happened until now is that the elite create a well choreographed circus that directs the energy elsewhere to a convenient target outside the country (USA, NATO, India, IMF, you name it), so that business as usual may return as quickly as can be managed. Hence, this mourning runs the risk of going to waste yet again, not because the international community is amoral or illegal or unjust, but because the elite continue to hoodwink their own people.

Rather than burn effigies and a few newspaper photo-ops by a few well-trained lackeys, I'd rather see all the families of those killed to stage a hunger strike in front of the GHQ and the parliament until some answers emerge, or something tangible like that that would be effective from a strategic point of view.

I hope I make myself clear in what I am trying to say.

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## Guest01

There have been some views here trying to read a meaning in US and NATO / ISAF statements. The fact that there is only talk of an investigation means clearly that there will in no way be an apology (as is being sought by PA it seems) + with the leaks by Afghan and ISAF of the fire from Pakistani posts on an ISAF party acting against Taliban it is also being implied that ISAF acted in self defence and did not intend to allow the Taliban to scoot away to safety under the cover of the Pakistani army fire. So I would not hold my breath waiting for an apology give this information. Expecting for action against the ISAF troops involved is in fact near audacious in these circumstances.


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Excellent questions.
> 
> It is perfectly justifiable, understandable and indeed necessary for the general public to express their grief and anger over this tragedy. However, this anguish should be directed at the proper quarters to demand accountability from the civilian and military leadership for not only this incident, but so many other previous things too.
> 
> What has happened until now is that the elite create a well choreographed circus that directs the energy elsewhere to a convenient target outside the country (USA, NATO, India, IMF, you name it), so that business as usual may return as quickly as can be managed. Hence, this mourning runs the risk of going to waste yet again, not because the international community is amoral or illegal or unjust, but because the elite continue to hoodwink their own people.
> 
> Rather than burn effigies and a few newspaper photo-ops by a few well-trained lackeys, I'd rather see all the families of those killed to stage a hunger strike in front of the GHQ and the parliament until some answers emerge, or something tangible like that that would be effective from a strategic point of view.
> 
> I hope I make myself clear in what I am trying to say.



That would make americans happy wouldnt it.


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## Omar1984

Areesh said:


> Love the way Indians are working as muft kai wakeel for NATO and Americans. Hatred for Pakistan seems to be the biggest impetus for this love for NATO.



Thank you, the same thought was in my mind.


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> Im not talking about mutiny , Im talking about acting on the call of duty that every soldier and officer of Pakistan Army has echoing in his heart.
> 
> All it will take is one Sherdil ...



Be that as it may, any Army whose officers, or rank and file, follow their _hearts _instead of _orders _is a _dead _Army.

---------- Post added at 04:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------




Aryan_B said:


> That would make americans happy wouldnt it.




WRONG.

The people of Pakistan must make their own leaders accountable. Otherwise there is no hope for a real change.


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## unicorn



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## Guest01

VCheng said:


> Excellent questions.
> 
> It is perfectly justifiable, understandable and indeed necessary for the general public to express their grief and anger over this tragedy. However, this anguish should be directed at the proper quarters to demand accountability from the civilian and military leadership for not only this incident, but so many other previous things too.
> 
> What has happened until now is that the elite create a well choreographed circus that directs the energy elsewhere to a convenient target outside the country (USA, NATO, India, IMF, you name it), so that business as usual may return as quickly as can be managed. Hence, this mourning runs the risk of going to waste yet again, not because the international community is amoral or illegal or unjust, but because the elite continue to hoodwink their own people.
> 
> Rather than burn effigies and a few newspaper photo-ops by a few well-trained lackeys, I'd rather see all the families of those killed to stage a hunger strike in front of the GHQ and the parliament until some answers emerge, or something tangible like that that would be effective from a strategic point of view.
> 
> I hope I make myself clear in what I am trying to say.



Bang on the money.

While grieving for soldiers is respectful and appropriate but more important is to question as to who is putting them in harms way? Is it expected of ISAF and NATO / Afghan forces to continue taking casualties from the good version of Taliban? Why is it expected that US and NATO will allow that to continue. It is not the first time that allegation of Pakistani army cover fire for brave Taliban on the run have come up. The occuring of such fire in this case too are consistent with what ISAF has been consistent with what NATO has been claiming. This modus operandi is also deployed by Pakistani army while pushing terrorists in to India too across the LOC.

Who is deciding on these policies? Who is putting these men in harms way seeking of them this cover fire for the strategic non state assets? Mourn these men but at the same time it is important to ask of the Pakistani Army generals if this cost is justifiable for their perverted dreams of playing king maker in Afghanistan or some kind of perverted sense of strategic security or depth.

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## W.11

unicorn said:


>



what about thousands of other non military orphans, who will probably never even receive the allownces and compensation etc??? these guys are paid and insured to give up their live, its their job

in civilian case, the families are literally destroyed because they had their properties/homes destroyed, and in this case the military will shower this orphan will life time allowances that its not even a big deal

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## lem34

KarachiPunk said:


> what about thousands of other non military orphans, who will probably never even receive the allownces and compensation etc??? these guys are paid and insured to give up their live, its their job



Pakistani orphans created by american bastaxds. Shame on the ameican appologists that come on here. My heart goes out to that baby

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## VelocuR

Pakistan Flag on the US Embassy during NATO attacks.

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## pakdefender

RaptorRX707 said:


> Pakistan Flag on the US Embassy during NATO attacks.



Super Stuff!! We need more of this!

This should build up to the eventual storming of the embassy!!!!


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## mr42O

*F** u NATO.

Saturday's attack by NATO fighter jets and helicopters on two Pakistani military outposts on the Afghan border lasted more than an hour, also targeted army personnel sent to the bases as backup, and continued after Pakistani commanders contacted NATO to demand that the assault stop, Pakistani and Western officials said.*


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## logic

Aryan_B said:


> Pakistani orphans created by american bastaxds. Shame on the ameican appologists that come on here. My heart goes out to that baby



To err is human but to blame it on someone else is politics.

The Government of Pakistan is responsible for this incident by failing to protect there troops and by denying them any backup what so ever. It is sad to know that the Government is sending our soldiers in harms way just like cannon fodder.

The PAF should have ensured air cover for there troops after all they were in our territory.

On the eastern front when any hostility takes place both side know they will be equal and opposite response hence Indian choppers and planes never enter Pakistan air space and bomb our troops.

NATO does this because it knows it can get away with it.


Government needs another five year term while the civil servants of Pakistan might be eyeing yet another extension.

Our leadership should stop whoring out Pakistan for petty personal gains and show some backbone.

Ahlan Anta Habibi gang is already in town signals there will be no change whatsoever and such incidents will keep on taking place until NATO reaches Islamabad where Mr Zardari will gracefully handover his sheerwani and exchange it for a first class boarding pass along with the other elites and we the people will be left facing the mess and suffering the slaughter.

Shame on you Mr Zardari
Shame on you Mr Gilani
Shame on you Mr Kiyani

Pakistan is bigger than these three men. 
Long Live Pakistan

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## lem34

logic said:


> To err is human but to blame it on someone else is politics.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan is responsible for this incident by failing to protect there troops and by denying them any backup what so ever. It is sad to know that the Government is sending our soldiers in harms way just like cannon fodder.
> 
> Government needs another five year term while the civil servants of Pakistan might be eyeing yet another extension.



I wish you read all the thread instead of just a few posts:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...s-unprovoked-night-attack-91.html#post2332857 post 1357


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## lem34

uswrld said:


> You are the biggest liar on the earth right form WMDs in Iraq to OBL. Recently even Obama said Raymond is diplomat and even did not feel embarrassed when it was confirmed that he was CIA contractor and had no diplomatic immunity. You did it million % deliberately to test waters for the bigger assault which will come later. You will stage another in Afghanistan and declare it is a retaliation by ISI agents. Can you just ask yourself why you have occupied Afghanistan. What kind of democracy you are shoving through Afghans???????????? Right from Hirshima your government has killed million innocent people and now you are saying that you will investigate? Investigate about what? Is NATO bunch of impotent incompetent idiots who do not know what to do where and when? Who are you trying to fool. You can befoll your stooges but not general public


#

seem like liars to me. Actions tell a different story to their words


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## hatf IX

J.Tariq said:


> It is not actually shamsi it is actually shamshi. this is all is happening for public consumption because it is only of symbolic importance real deal is shahbaz air base and base near terbella (i saw terbella base for americans it is big very big) and these bases they will never vacate or forced to be vacated by GOP



is it airbase or army base

i think the nearest base to terbella is kamara airbase and if Americans are there than . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ????????????????? 
every one know better . . . . .


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## President Camacho

Aryan_B said:


> That would make americans happy wouldnt it.



Tell me Aryan, of all the people in here, what do you think would scare the Americans the most? A strong, democratic, and independent Pakistan ruled by the people where the elites (Army + Gov) are held accountable for their decisions and actions... or the present Pakistan where, while the decisions are taken behind the curtains of secrecy, the results of those decisions appear to be harming the people and empowering the elites?

I think what VCheng said, and what you questioned him for, is the right way for Pakistan. If, as many in here appear to think, the US has hegemonic designs against Pakistan, then such an action of people questioning the role of power corridors, shall make the US shudder, don't you think?

The Americans would be happy at that, but only if they want Pakistan to economically and politically independent.



Aryan_B said:


> Pakistani orphans created by american bastaxds. Shame on the ameican appologists that come on here. My heart goes out to that baby



Again, on the matter of increasing number of Pakistani orphans, for a change, let us experiment with the views of the one who has been called what not in here, but has stuck to his view point.

Orphans in Pakistan are created almost on daily basis - by drone strikes. You, and many in here say, the US is the enemy. So, who on earth gave that enemy the right to bomb Pakistani innocents on daily basis? 

If I am your enemy, I bribe your gatekeeper to let me in to come shoot you, then you should be less angry at me, but be aghast at your own gatekeeper. Enemies were always there Aryan, and enemies will always be there, as long as time exists - well that's redundant. But I hope you get my point. 

The main culprit is not the one who is bombing or raiding, but the one whom Pakistani people have entrusted with their security to save them from such bombings and raids.

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## Guest01

J.Tariq said:


> It is not actually shamsi it is actually shamshi. this is all is happening for public consumption because it is only of symbolic importance real deal is shahbaz air base and base near terbella (i saw terbella base for americans it is big very big) and these bases they will never vacate or forced to be vacated by GOP



If what you say is correct then it would be consistent with the ease with which Amercian assets arrived in Abbottabad to relieve the guest of honor of his humanly existence.


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## StandForInsaf

IMO , Pakistan should vacate all air bases from UAE , these ayash arabis come there to kill our animal after the work is done they sell in to USA who use it for its spy purposes , Nawaz has done this stupidity to sell air bases.

Vacate all air bases from all foreigners including Arabs (they can use with our permission only and not to own bases).


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## VelocuR

*NATO - NORTH ATLANTIC TERRORIST ORGANIZATION*







use this in your avatar.

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## 888jamie888

pakdefender said:


> Super Stuff!! We need more of this!
> 
> *This should build up to the eventual storming of the embassy!!!!*


I'm sure that would send out a good message to the world.


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> Super Stuff!! We need more of this!
> 
> This should build up to the eventual storming of the embassy!!!!



And exactly what would that achieve that would be beneficial for Pakistan, other than trashing an already abysmal characterization?


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## Super Falcon

welll when when army and airforce wil wake up and answer all attacks of Nato and USA why we do attack on Nato and say sorry this is by mistake why we dont do this toooo US saying that Apache is best and it can see pin on ground so how it is possible that it did not seen pak flag anyway this is delibrate for sure if i have been chief i have send all of my airforce to kill those bastered of the skies or if i would been late should have sent all airfoorce jets to afghanistan and kill Nato soldiers and said we are sorry it is by mistake


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## halikan

I hope Russia chooses to block NATO's supply as soon as possible !
because US and allies will then be seriously handicapped in Afghanistan and hopefully forced to leave as soon as possible

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## Jackdaws

I hate to burst the bubble but in diplomatic terms, "expressing deep shock" is a very neutral response which neither supports Pakistan nor supports NATO. If China wanted to express solidarity with Pakistan in diplomatic terms, it would have "condemned" the attacks, one step below that would "expressed outrage", one step below would be "expressed regret" - "deep shock" in diplomatic terms in a not a statement of support.

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## lionheartsalahudin

From the members in military or related to military all I hear is SOP&#8217;S!SOP&#8217;S ,well if I have taken a oath to protect my nation and obey my commands and the 2nd one conflicts with the 1st one I would scrap it,convinent scape goat standard operating procedure u know wat f&#8230; that.not one soldier had the guts to point a anza at the choppers ,apart from this incident, in other incidents when intruders violated our airspace ,not one pilot who was armed and patrolling in the air and knew abt the intruders had enough ghairat to say to control &#8220;up urs control&#8221; I am going to shoot these boggies down ,why cant there be mumtaz qadri&#8217;s in airforce or army!

To the gvt and authorities and ghq if ur communication has so much lag that it took u hours to call reinforcements while our boys were being massacred then decentralize the command the area commander should have the authority and say on what action is to be taken to shoot down or not ,should only be the decision of the one present in the concerned sector ,rather then fat bellied generals sitting in ghq or members of parliament.

PAKISTAN AIRFORCE a waste of money and resources just a waste .

Arabs they are same as Israel,infact I think israeli&#8217;s and american&#8217;s won&#8217;t even have to bother attacking iran arab&#8217;s will do it for them,anything to prevent a arab spring in their respective countries.so my country men arabs are no friends of ours they are brokers and agents of our enemies.

VOTE for IMRAN khan bring abt change guys this guy is my 2nd last hope

ISI : if imran does&#8217;nt live up to our expectations then last hope is ISI,then lets all vote in isi into power not the army chief ,no political party.ISI all the way I know I am ready to give in any sort of donation to isi bcuz I know they will do what they are supposed to do,and are pretty good at their job and will not sell us out and our honour like our other institutions.

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## pakdefender

VCheng said:


> And exactly what would that achieve that would be beneficial for Pakistan, other than trashing an already abysmal characterization?



The embassies are being used to infiltrate Pakistan via diplomatic channel; shutting down their embassies is equivalent to cutting of yet another supply route

Open your eyes ... we are at war ( in case it has STILL not dawned on people like you )


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## xLancex

News source?


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## mr42O

LET THESE TERRIOST BLEED................

By ALAN CULLISON

MOSCOWRussia said it may not let NATO use its territory to supply troops in Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't seriously consider its objections to a U.S.-led missile shield for Europe, Russia's ambassador to NATO said Monday.

Russia has stepped up its objections to the antimissile system in Europe, threatening last week to deploy its own ballistic missiles on the border of the European Union to counter the move. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization says the shield is meant to thwart an attack from a rogue state such as Iran, that it poses no threat to Russia, and that the alliance will go ahead with the plan despite Moscow's objections.

If NATO doesn't give a serious response, "we have to address matters in relations in other areas," Russian news services reported Dmitri Rogozin, ambassador to NATO, as saying. He added that Russia's cooperation on Afghanistan may be an area for review, the news services reported.

Threats to the NATO supply line through Russia come at an awkward time for the alliance. NATO has become increasingly reliant on the Russian route as problems in Pakistanits primary supply routehave escalated. Over the weekend, Pakistan closed its border to trucks delivering supplies in response to coalition airstrikes Saturday that killed 25 Pakistani soldiers.

NATO began shipping its supplies through Russia in 2009, after the so-called reset in relations between Moscow and the U.S., allowing the alliance a safer route for supplies into Afghanistan. But U.S.-Russian relations have been strained lately by the approach of elections in both countries. In the past week, the Kremlin has sharply stepped up its anti-Western rhetoric ahead of parliamentary elections on Dec. 4.

Ivan Safranchuk, deputy director of the Moscow-based Institute of Contemporary International Studies, said Russia is unlikely to cut off the flow of NATO supplies to Afghanistan as an immediate response to missile-defense decisions. But Russia does want its objections to the missile shield to be taken more seriously, he said.

"If the U.S. is not responsive, then a cutoff could be a reality at some point," Mr. Safranchuk said. "Russia would like the U.S. to be more serious about Russian concerns."

Write to Alan Cullison at alan.cullison@wsj.com

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## W.11

RaptorRX707 said:


> *NATO - NORTH ATLANTIC TERRORIST ORGANIZATION*


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> The embassies are being used to infiltrate Pakistan via diplomatic channel; shutting down their embassies is equivalent to cutting of yet another supply route
> 
> Open your eyes ... we are at war ( in case it has STILL not dawned on people like you )



A mob storming the embassy would be foolish in the extreme. A more civilized and effective way would be recall the Pakistani ambassador, and declare the US ambassador a _persona non grata_. That is how the game is played, but only as a last resort.

Did I miss a declaration of war or are you just blowing off steam?

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## Guest01

I wonder if anyone can provide clarity on this matter. There were consistent reports of 28 soldiers dead initially. This number kept up for a good amount of time, but now it seems that the number is being rolled back to 24. So who were the other 4 caualities that were counted amongst the 28?


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## pakdefender

888jamie888 said:


> I'm sure that would send out a good message to the world.



The world is not just white , anglo-saxon and protestant ... its a bit more than that

---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> A mob storming the embassy would be foolish in the extreme. A more civilized and effective way would be recall the Pakistani ambassador, and declare the US ambassador a _persona non grata_. That is how the game is played, but only as a last resort.
> 
> Did I miss a declaration of war or are you just blowing off steam?



you are too thick ( or perphas too much of a weasal ) to read the writing on the wall ... its the cowardly nature of this enemy to pretend to be an ally only to attack us , kill us and then rub it in our faces ... if this is not a declaration of war then I dont know what will be


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## blain2

VCheng said:


> A few nice words, a shovelful of dollars, and a pat on the back, and everything will be fine?
> 
> Does that sound familiar?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all, given that Pakistan is much more than you or I.
> 
> (Please see the above response: THAT, Sir, is the reality, describe it any way you prefer.



It would be fine if these actions are not repeated and families of the deceased are compensated by the offending party. Pakistan is not itching to get into a war with the ISAF.

If anything, Pakistan is attempting her best to keep the tensions from flaring. It does not take much for a pissed off Lt/2Lt to get his section to chew up some from the other side to level set without realizing the ramifications. The same goes for getting the PAF involved after a firefight. In most cases, the terrain in the FATA is extremely difficult for any radar to provide coverage on and PA and the ISAF have had some challenges with it. Secondly, the PAF cannot get involved with the highest political clearance. As involving air power on our end will definitely cause the stakes to be raised immensely and make us vulnerable to more attacks.

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## President Camacho

Fatal NATO raid in Pakistan likely a case of mistaken ID by US, Afghan forces


WASHINGTON - U.S. officials believe a case of mistaken identity may have led to the deadliest case of friendly fire with Pakistan since the Afghanistan war began.

The Associated Press has learned details of the raid, which began when a joint U.S.-Afghan special operations team was attacked by militants in Afghanistan.

They called for air strikes, which killed up to 25 Pakistani soldiers at a border post inside Pakistan.

*According to U.S. military records, the joint U.S.-Afghan patrol checked with the Pakistanis before returning fire. *Officials described the records on condition of anonymity to discuss classified matters.

Hunting the escaped militants two hours later, the U.S. commander spotted what he thought was a militant encampment, and called for the deadly air strikes. That encampment was apparently the Pakistani base.


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## hatf IX

google earth over view of shamsi air base and u can even see the drones in this video . . . . @1:30


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## 888jamie888

pakdefender said:


> The world is not just white , anglo-saxon and protestant ... its a bit more than that


Violence against an embassy?? It's like shooting the messenger. A form of cowardice, like VCheng said if you want to do that then do it diplomatically. Besides I suspect the US embassy will be in high demand in regards to the current situation. 
This isn't a 'race vs race' issue. The west is full of loads of different ethnicities, living in harmony for the most part.
The UK is now very secular and besides a lot of the rest of europe is catholic. I just can't....that was such a bad reply from you.


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## Erhabi

RaptorRX707 said:


> *NATO - NORTH ATLANTIC TERRORIST ORGANIZATION*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> use this in your avatar.

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## W.11

a very interesting video, a journalist think that nato attacked was launched from both ground and air??, he said, the soldiers were killed by ground forces, and air attack was to support the ground attack, he refered to the memo in which zardari had allowed americans ground attacks if they had accepted the deal


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## pakdefender

888jamie888 said:


> Violence against an embassy?? It's like shooting the messenger. A form of cowardice, like VCheng said if you want to do that then do it diplomatically. Besides I suspect the US embassy will be in high demand in regards to the current situation.
> This isn't a 'race vs race' issue. The west is full of loads of different ethnicities, living in harmony for the most part.
> The UK is now very secular and besides a lot of the rest of europe is catholic. I just can't....that was such a bad reply from you.



I dont know how old you are but some times to see whats wrong the picture ( of which you are a part of ) you have to step out and stand at a distance to see what wrong with it .... you'll never realise what's wrong with the picture so long as you are part of it.

My reply may have seemed harsh to you but step out of the picture you are part of see it from a distance and you'll realize why I said what I wrote above


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## VCheng

Speculation knows no bounds.


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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> It would be fine if these actions are not repeated and families of the deceased are compensated by the offending party. Pakistan is not itching to get into a war with the ISAF.
> 
> If anything, Pakistan is attempting her best to keep the tensions from flaring. ...............



Thank you for a level headed post, with good points.

I think both sides will arrive at a mutually acceptable accommodation yet, and I hope, as you do, that such incidents do not happen again.

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## W.11

Cheng sahab, are you a journalist??, a journalist has some sort of fact base, they just dont put allegations


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## Bhairava

blain2 said:


> Pakistan is as united or divided as any other country in the World. Its just that many other countries do not have as many external factors to cater to as Pakistan does.
> 
> What most Pakistanis agree upon is that Pakistan cannot be made into the sacrificial lamb and give up all her regional interests just because the Americans decide otherwise. There is consensus on that and the future Pakistani stance would be much more mindful of the feelings that people have and the government will use this perception amongst its constituency to frame future policies.


 
I agree.

Pakistan has its own interests and US has its own interests and they are doing everything in their power to achieve that.

May the best man win.There is no use blaming anyone.


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> ...................
> 
> you are too thick ( or perphas too much of a weasal ) to read the writing on the wall ... its the cowardly nature of this enemy to pretend to be an ally only to attack us , kill us and then rub it in our faces ... if this is not a declaration of war then I dont know what will be



I am neither thick nor a "weasal".

The writing on the wall bodes ill for Pakistan, not anyone else, and it is high time that it is read by the Pakistani leadership with understanding.


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So what is your point in arguing with me?
> 
> My criticism was of VC's argument that Pakistan should not try to 'campaign, demand and argue' for change. I never argued that Pakistan should not 'work hard and improve its domestic environment'.


 
My point was where the change should start. Whether at home or from the international community. I say home.


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## pakdefender

Bsically this is an undeclared war with America and her allies on one side and Pakistan on the other


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## StandForInsaf

hatf IX said:


> google earth over view of shamsi air base and u can even see the drones in this video . . . . @1:30



Begarit UAE walay usa ko sell kar gaye air base .....


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## VCheng

Bhairava said:


> My point was where the change should start. Whether at home or from the international community. I say home.



AM's point is already made that changes can be concurrent, and I can concede that without any issues.

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------




pakdefender said:


> Bsically this is an undeclared war with America and her allies on one side and Pakistan on the other



That is not good for Pakistan then, and should be avoided at all costs.


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## pakdefender

VCheng said:


> AM's point is already made that changes can be concurrent, and I can concede that without any issues.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> That is not good for Pakistan then, and should be avoided at all costs.




Its there upon you and you are talking about avoiding it !! 
We have been doing this avoiding for the last ten years and the result is 30,000 Pakistanis dead and 3000+ troops lost

Zindagi aur Muat Allah kay hath mein hay ... is mein koi shak ki bat nahi .. aik din mein bhi chala jaon ga iss dunya say aur tum bhi chalay jao ga .. so whats there to fear ?


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> Its there upon you and you are talking about avoiding it !!
> We have been doing this avoiding for the last ten years and the result is *30,000 Pakistanis dead and 3000+ troops lost*



Grievous as those losses are, they pale in comparison to an out and war: *millions *dead and displaced.


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## VCheng

KarachiPunk said:


> Cheng sahab, are you a journalist??, a journalist has some sort of fact base, they just dont put allegations



This type of unfounded speculation serves no purpose, and that is a valid point regardless of my profession.


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## Bhairava

Latest reports indicate the two posts were just 300 yards from the border and not 2.5 k as mentioned previously. So yes, there is a very high chance of opposition troops crossing over into Pak territory.


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## VCheng

Bhairava said:


> Latest reports indicate the two posts were just 300 yards from the border and not 2.5 k as mentioned previously. So yes, there is a very high chance of opposition troops crossing over into Pak territory.



As I keep saying, it would be best to wait for the final report.

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## pakdefender

VCheng said:


> Grievous as those losses are, they pale in comparison to an out and war: *millions *dead and displaced.



Wars are foundations upon which nations are built ... pick up any book of history and see if it disagrees with what Im saying


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> Wars are foundations upon which nations are built ... ..............



..... after a few existing ones are destroyed. Are you ready for that?


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Latest reports indicate the two posts were just 300 yards from the border and not 2.5 k as mentioned previously. So yes, there is a very high chance of opposition troops crossing over into Pak territory.



They were 3.5 yards from each other, not the border. You are right, they were not 2.5 km from the border, they were 2.414 km (1.5 miles) from the border.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> They were 3.5 yards from each other, not the border. You are right, they were not 2.5 km from the border, they were 2.414 km (1.5 miles) from the border.



Satisfied or you doubt Maj Gen.Athar Abbas also ?



> Abbas said the two military posts, named "Volcano" and "Golden," were located on a ridge in Mohmand region *around 300 yards (meters) from the border with Afghanistan*. He said their exact location had been provided to NATO and that the area had recently been cleared of militants



Pakistan says NATO ignored pleas during attack


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## pakdefender

Hu Songshan said:


> Russia said it may not let NATO use its territory to supply troops in Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't seriously consider its objections to a U.S.-led missile shield for Europe, Russia's ambassador to NATO said Monday.
> 
> Russia has stepped up its objections to the antimissile system in Europe, threatening last week to deploy its own ballistic missiles on the border of the European Union to counter the move. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization says the shield is meant to thwart an attack from a rogue state such as Iran, that it poses no threat to Russia, and that the alliance will go ahead with the plan despite Moscow's objections.



Moscow Zindabad!!
We now have a golden opportunity to smoother these NATO/US rats holed up in Afghanistan!!
JAAG PAKISTAN JAAG!!! DONT LET THIS OPPERTUNITY WALK PAST, DONT!!!!

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## Bhairava

VCheng said:


> As I keep saying, it would be best to wait for the final report.



I agree. I was just speculating one of the scenarios. Not concluding anything.


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> Moscow Zindabad!!
> We now have a golden opportunity to smoother these NATO/US rats holed up in Afghanistan!!
> JAAG PAKISTAN JAAG!!! DONT LET THIS OPPERTUNITY WALK PAST, DONT!!!!



What "oppertunity" are you referring to here?


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Satisfied or you doubt Maj Gen.Athar Abbas also ?
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan says NATO ignored pleas during attack



Can you show me where Gen Abbas actually said that? 

Last time I read a latest report from the Sunday Times, it said the attack took place in Kunar, Afghanistan; not Mohmand, Pakistan. 

The most famous newspaper outlets have claimed the Salala outpost was 1.5 miles from the Afghan border:

Pakistan may boycott Afghan summit | World news | guardian.co.uk

BBC News - Pakistan outrage after 'Nato attack kills soldiers'

Pakistan demands US vacate air base - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com

Nato helicopters 'kill 14 Pakistan troops' at checkpoint - Telegraph


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## Omar1984

*Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes*

BY ALAN CULLISON 
MOSCOW&#8212;Russia said it may not let NATO use its territory to supply troops in Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't seriously consider its objections to a U.S.-led missile shield for Europe, Russia's ambassador to NATO said Monday.

Russia has stepped up its objections to the antimissile system in Europe, threatening last week to deploy its own ballistic missiles on the border of the European Union to counter the move.

Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes - WSJ.com



Russia Threatens To Cut Off NATO Afghanistan Transit | EurasiaNet.org



Very good news. Pakistan and Russia need to enhance cooperation with each other against NATO.

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## W.11

from this news i remember khar te;lephoning chinese and russians to talk about the matter, looks like as pakistan is too weak to take a stance, russia is backing it

indians jelly??

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## Bhairava

@ bilalhaider....Athar abbas is quoted as saying the two checkposts "Volcano" and "Golden" were in a ridge in Mohmand 300 yards from the border and I have also given the link. 

If you still choose not to believe that it is not my concern. Just remember what I said when the final report comes out and don't be surprised. 

Yesterday I was saying wait for one more day till more sources come out, now they are coming out in unison with the "self-defence" when fired upon chorus. This is how the NATO version will turn up and this is how your own Army will close the chapter.

*EDIT*: - the link I gave is the most recent one updated just 10hrs ago while the links you gave are older than that.


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## VCheng

Bhairava said:


> @ bilalhaider....Athar abbas is quoted as saying the two checkposts "Volcano" and "Golden" were in a ridge in Mohmand 300 yards from the border and I have also given the link.
> 
> If you still choose not to believe that it is not my concern. Just remember what I said when the final report comes out and don't be surprised.
> 
> Yesterday I was saying wait for one more day till more sources come out, now they are coming out in unison with the "self-defence" when fired upon chorus. This is how the NATO version will turn up.



I have already predicted that ISPR will slowly retract many of the statements it has made regarding the facts about this incident.


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## pakdefender

I said earlier that Russia will do hard bargaining and it&#8217;s fact that most of NATO's supply is going through the Pakistan route , the US mil officers lied to the Senators that its 35%

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## Bhairava

VCheng said:


> I have already predicted that ISPR will slowly retract many of the statements it has made regarding the facts about this incident.



I know the emotions run high and maybe that is why the refusal to look at things that don't support the popular version of events. 

However strong hints have already been thrown of what would be the final conclusion of this sad episode. They just need time.


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## Omar1984

pakdefender said:


> I said earlier that Russia will do hard bargaining and it&#8217;s fact that most of NATO's supply is going through the Pakistan route , the US mil officers lied to the Senators that its 35%



Russia does not allow military supplies and oil supplies for NATO to go through its territory, and it never will as Russia-US relations are not going to get better anytime soon.

The military supplies and oil supplies goes through Pakistan, and once you cut that, NATO will be out of our region before New Years Day January 1, 2012.

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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> I said earlier that Russia will do hard bargaining and it&#8217;s fact that most of NATO's supply is going through the Pakistan route , the US mil officers lied to the Senators that its 35%



Pakistan cannot count on the Russian anymore than on anybody else in this situation.

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## pakdefender

These UAE sheikhs are the worst of the worse , they used this air strip for their trips to Pakistan for Bustard hunting , then they handed this over to the US and we the Pakistanis took the responsibility for it.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> @ bilalhaider....Athar abbas is quoted as saying the two checkposts "Volcano" and "Golden" were in a ridge in Mohmand 300 yards from the border and I have also given the link.



No, you have not given the link where General Abbas said the posts were 300 yards away from the border.



> If you still choose not to believe that it is not my concern.



If you believe General Abbas's statement to be true, then you also have to believe his statement that the attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression from NATO Forces. 



> Just remember what I said when the final report comes out and don't be surprised.



Why would I be surprised? None of the narratives coming out by anyone have supported your claims that Afghan/NATO Forces crossed into Pakistani territory.


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## VCheng

Bhairava said:


> I know the emotions run high and maybe that is why the refusal to look at things that don't support the popular version of events.
> 
> However strong hints have already been thrown of what would be the final conclusion of this sad episode. They just need time.



Sadly, this is not the first time, nor the last, that emotionalism cost Pakistan dearly what could have been saved by thinking logically.


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## pakdefender

VCheng said:


> Pakistan cannot count on the Russian anymore than on anybody else in this situation.



We are on our own and that&#8217;s the way it will be but Russians have a score to settle with NATO.
Russia also has ambitions and if in some way our interests align against a common enemy them I welcome it any time

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> I know the emotions run high and maybe that is why the refusal to look at things that don't support the popular version of events.



If General Abbas's statement that the posts were 300 yards from the Afghan border is the popular version of events, then so is his statement that the attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression from the NATO Forces. I would be happy to agree with the 'popular version of events' aka General Abbas's statements.

---------- Post added at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------




VCheng said:


> I have already predicted that ISPR will slowly retract many of the statements it has made regarding the facts about this incident.



Has it started retracting any of its statements already? Which ones would they be?


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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> ....................
> 
> Has it started retracting any of its statements already? Which ones would they be?



It will be quite evident soon enough, when a "resolution" will come about and supply routes and drone attacks resume.


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> We are on our own and that&#8217;s the way it will be .............



That is an important point to always keep in mind.

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## W.11

VCheng said:


> That is an important point to always keep in mind.



too much fodder here for Vcheng to troll at will, you are lucky the way you are sitting as some bharati in america and operating under pakistani flag

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## VCheng

KarachiPunk said:


> too much fodder here for Vcheng to troll at will, you are lucky the way you are sitting as some bharati in america and operating under pakistani flag



My flags are correct, as are my opinions. You really should be able to display a better mental process than mere fodder.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> If General Abbas's statement that the posts were 300 yards from the Afghan border is the popular version of events, then so is his statement that the attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression from the NATO Forces. I would be happy to agree with the 'popular version of events' aka General Abbas's statements.


 

300 yards admission from the previous 2.5 km is just the start, not the end. Just wait for few more days.

---------- Post added at 05:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 AM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> No, you have not given the link where General Abbas said the posts were 300 yards away from the border.



The news report explicitly quotes Gen Athar Abbas as saying so. Refusing to believe it - for the sake of argument - and asking for something that is right in front of your eyes does not make you look wiser nor makes what he said false.


----------



## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> 300 yards admission from the previous 2.5 km is just the start, not the end. Just wait for few more days.



So you agree with the admission from the same source that said that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression? Simply respond in yes or no.


----------



## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> So you agree with the admission from the same source that said that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression? Simply respond in yes or no.



You waited for one day for the border posts to shift from 2.5 km to 300yards. Wait for a few more days. It will be closed as a case of blue on blue.


----------



## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> The news report explicitly quotes Gen Athar Abbas as saying so. Refusing to believe it - for the sake of argument - and asking for something that is right in front of your eyes does not make you look wiser.



The news reports is coming out of US news outlets. Can you quote me a reliable Pakistan source like Dawn, Express Tribune, Daily Times claiming this? The US news outlets are known for fabrications, just like what they did in the RD affair.

And even if he did say that, I am asking you the same thing, do you agree with the admission from the same source that said that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression? Simply respond in yes or no.

---------- Post added at 05:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 AM ----------




Bhairava said:


> You waited for one day for the border posts to shift from 2.5 km to 300yards. Wait for a few more days. It will be closed as a case of blue on blue.



Answer my question. Do you believe in the same source claiming that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression? Don't try to divert the issue being discussed. Simply respond in yes or no.


----------



## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> The news reports is coming out of US news outlets. Can you quote me a reliable Pakistan source like Dawn, Express Tribune, Daily Times claiming this? The US news outlets are known for fabrications, just like what they did in the RD affair.



Well, as I said believing the news report is upto you. Sunday Times is a pretty big site and I don't think they will fake words of Athar Abbas especially in such a situation and when he can expressely rebut it.

But then hey, whatever floats the boat. 



bilalhaider said:


> And even if he did say that, I am asking you the same thing, do you agree with the admission from the same source that said that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression? *Simply respond in yes or no.*



Why are you in such a hurry ? The game has just started. One by one the Pakistani version will be 'modified' to suit the NATO version and the case closed.

To answer your question, I believe the covering up has started and will be over in a few more days.


----------



## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Well, as I said believing the news report is upto you. Sunday Times is a pretty big site and I don't think they will fake words of Athar Abbas especially in such a situation and when he can expressely rebut it.



The Sunday Times did not quote General Abbas, the USA today did. The Sunday Times said the attack did not take place in Mohmand, Pakistan; but in Kunar, Afghanistan.



> Why are you in such a hurry ? The game has just started. One by one the Pakistani version will be 'modified' to suit the NATO version and the case closed.



There is no modification of the Pakistani version. Please quote a Pakistani source that shows any modifications in the Pakistani version. 

You still haven't answered my question. You keep diverting the question.


----------



## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> The Sunday Times did not quote General Abbas, the USA today did. The Sunday Times said the attack did not take place in Mohmand, Pakistan; but in Kunar, Afghanistan.



Whatever, USA today is one of the biggest selling newspapers in US and it only adds more credibility. It quoting Maj Gen AA is right in front of your eyes. Believing the 'zionist' media is upto you.




bilalhaider said:


> There is no modification of the Pakistani version. Please quote a Pakistani source that shows any modifications in the Pakistani version.
> 
> You still haven't answered my question. You keep diverting the question.


 
2.5 km to 300 yards. That's a pretty big modification.


----------



## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> 2.5 km to 300 yards. That's a pretty big modification.



Quote me a reliable Pakistani source quoting General Abbas said that. Or a video of him saying that.

---------- Post added at 05:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 AM ----------




Bhairava said:


> Whatever, USA today is one of the biggest selling newspapers in US and it only adds more credibility. It quoting Maj Gen AA is right in front of your eyes. Believing the 'zionist' media is upto you.



You've diverted the main question long enough. Time to respond to it in yes or no. 

Do you believe in the same source claiming that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression?


----------



## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Quote me a reliable Pakistani source quoting General Abbas said that. Or a video of him saying that.



Fine let it be 2.5 km..if you want to keep up this childish obstinacy and refuse to believe a news report quoting your own Maj.Gen.

As I said things will change in coming days and you can see for yourself.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Fine let it be 2.5 km..if you want to keep up this childish obstinacy and refuse to believe a news report quoting your own Maj.Gen.
> 
> As I said things will change in coming days and you can see for yourself.





Bhairava said:


> Whatever, USA today is one of the biggest selling newspapers in US and it only adds more credibility. It quoting Maj Gen AA is right in front of your eyes. Believing the 'zionist' media is upto you.



Do you believe in the same source claiming that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression?


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> You've diverted the main question long enough. Time to respond to it in yes or no.
> 
> Do you believe in the same source claiming that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression?



You don't get to be answered in the choices you give me. I answer in my own words. 

and that answer would be - wait for few days and see the final result.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> You don't get to be answered in the choices you give me. I answer in my own words.



It's not a hard question to answer. Do you believe in the same source claiming that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression?


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> It's not a hard question to answer. Do you believe in the same source claiming that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression?



It's not a hard question ,yes. But just not the right time to answer it.

BTW I know what you are arriving at. Remember the versions, as of now, can and will vary according to the sides, but the actual physical position of the posts cannot vary.So while I can say for sure about the latter, it's not the right time to speculate about the former.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> It's not a hard question ,yes. But just not the right time to answer it.



So you shouldn't be assuming that your position is correct, especially when you choose to cherry pick & accept one piece of information allegedly coming out from a particular source (& reject another piece of information coming out from that source).


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> So you shouldn't be assuming that your position is correct, especially when you choose to cherry pick & accept one piece of information allegedly coming out from a particular source (& reject another piece of information coming out from that source).


. .


> BTW I know what you are arriving at. Remember the versions, as of now, can and will vary according to the sides, but the actual physical position of the posts cannot vary and is a constant.So while I can say for sure about the latter, it's not the right time to speculate about the former.



Clear enough ?


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> . .
> 
> 
> Clear enough ?



If you want to wait for further investigations, why did you accept Major Abbas's statement about the posts being 300 yards from the Afghan border as truth?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Guest01 said:


> I wonder if anyone can provide clarity on this matter. There were consistent reports of 28 soldiers dead initially. This number kept up for a good amount of time, but now it seems that the number is being rolled back to 24. So who were the other 4 caualities that were counted amongst the 28?


I believe ISPR has stated 24 for while now (if not all along) - the 28 number was provided by media outlets quoting local sources in the region who had observed the casualties.


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> If you want to wait for further investigations, why did you accept Major Abbas's statement about the posts being 300 yards from the Afghan border as truth?



Because any number of investigations cant change the physical distance of the posts. Once or one million times the posts wouldd measure the same distance from the border.If he says this is the distnace , that is it. 

Its like no matter how many times you watch the replay, the catch is a catch. It wont be dropped in the replay.

OTOH versions of what happened are fluid and are liable to change by the minute.Savvy ?


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## manojb

I am late.. Very unfortunate incident . Condolences to soldiers family.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

President Camacho said:


> Hunting the escaped militants two hours later, the U.S. commander spotted what he thought was a militant encampment, and called for the deadly air strikes. That encampment was apparently the Pakistani base.



If this is true, this is sheer incompetence, and it does not necessarily rule out collusion - how on earth were airstrikes approved on coordinates for a Pakistani base, coordinates that had been specifically provided to ISAF to prevent just that?

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Because any number of investigations cant change the physical distance of the posts. Once or one million times the posts wouldd measure the same distance from the border.



So you ignore the BBC reports, & all the reports from all reputable sources that say the posts were 1.5 miles from the border. You choose to accept Mr Abbas's *alleged* statement in this case, but you don't accept his claim when he says that the attack of the NATO Forces on the Pakistan soldiers was an unprovoked act of aggression. You can't cherry pick like this. If you agree with one of the claims by your source, you have to agree with all of them. Did Major Abbas measure the distance himself? 

And btw, I am still waiting for you to quote a reliable Pakistani source that says Major Abbas said that. The US media is known for fabrications & prejudice against Pakistan, as was seen in the RD case.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

KarachiPunk said:


> what about thousands of other non military orphans, who will probably never even receive the allownces and compensation etc??? these guys are paid and insured to give up their live, its their job
> 
> in civilian case, the families are literally destroyed because they had their properties/homes destroyed, and in this case the military will shower this orphan will life time allowances that its not even a big deal


Ask/protest against the civilian government to provide similar 'allowances' to non-military orphans that the military provides to its soldiers.

Criticizing the institution of the military for properly caring for its soldiers and officers, because the civilian government cannot do the same, is absurd.

While it is true that the military earns billions of rupees in profit from the businesses it runs (which is largely used to fund these welfare and retirement programs for the troops), the GoP has even larger Public Sector Enterprizes under its control that can offer far more in the way of income, were they run properly - Pakistan Steel, PIA, Pakistan Railways, Oil and Gas, Water and Power etc. etc.

It is rather pathetic to see Pakistanis critiquing the military for being able to run successful businesses in order to provide proper welfare and retirement benefits to its soldiers, who otherwise don't earn much by even Pakistani standards.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> So you ignore the BBC reports, & all the reports from all reputable sources that say the posts were 1.5 miles from the border. You choose to accept Mr Abbas's *alleged* statement in this case, but you don't accept his claim when he says that the attack of the NATO Forces on the Pakistan soldiers was an unprovoked act of aggression. You can't cherry pick like this. If you agree with one of the claims by your source, you have to agree with all of them. Did Major Abbas measure the distance himself?



The news link I quoted is the latest updated under 10 hrs while the links you have were relatively old. Also it is not alleged, it quotes directly what Gen AA said.




bilalhaider said:


> And btw, I am still waiting for you to quote a reliable Pakistani source that says Major Abbas said that. The US media is known for fabrications & prejudice against Pakistan, as was seen in the RD case.



You can wait for few more days when the 'reliable' Pakistani media will be publishing it once the emotion subsides. Also I keep both US media and the PAk media at the same distance. I can't be responsible for your prejudice about certain media.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Sadly, this is not the first time, nor the last, that emotionalism cost Pakistan dearly what could have been saved by thinking logically.


What 'emotionalism' cost Pakistan the lives of 24 soldiers, that 'could have been saved by thinking logically'?

---------- Post added at 08:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> It will be quite evident soon enough, when a "resolution" will come about and supply routes and drone attacks resume.


How does any of that indicate a 'retraction' of the statements made by the ISPR?

'Retraction' would be to accept that:

1. Pakistani forces did indeed fire on NATO troops
2. Pakistan did not try and contact NATO after the attack started
3. Pakistani soldiers did not die in the attack, or far fewer than 24 died.

---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> I have already predicted that ISPR will slowly retract many of the statements it has made regarding the facts about this incident.


 


Bhairava said:


> I know the emotions run high and maybe that is why the refusal to look at things that don't support the popular version of events.
> 
> However strong hints have already been thrown of what would be the final conclusion of this sad episode. They just need time.


The above two are perfect examples of 'speculation'.

While both of you continue to insist that opinions be reserved till 'final report is released' (BTW, Pakistan's 'final report' has been made clear by the DG ISPR), you have no problems confidently predicting that whatever this 'final report' will be, it will contradict the Pakistani position and somehow be magically true.

Yet again hypocrisy and circular arguments.

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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If this is true, this is sheer incompetence, and it does not necessarily rule out collusion - how on earth were airstrikes approved on coordinates for a Pakistani base, coordinates that had been specifically provided to ISAF to prevent just that?



Two things AM,

First - It is just a part of a news piece, quoting an anonymous source (which is why I colored that part in red), and not the conclusion of investigation.

Second - The same news piece contains another part, which you should also consider with same zeal, that the patrol checked with the Pakistanis before returning the fire - If the coordinates were given, as you claim, and the patrol did check with the Pakistani counterparts, as the anonymous source claims, then it seems the the airstrike was ultimately approved by none other than Pakistani forces, right?

You need not be so aggressive AM, no one is calling NATO an angel, and Pakistanis a devil. If it is not a mistaken identity case, then there has to be a motive behind this airstrike. Let us hear their side of the story too. Conducting such an operation on purpose would be a lose-lose situation to both the parties. 

The case might be of incompetence at worst, mistaken identity at best, but not of collusion - that is out of scope because that will make this terrible act a deliberate one. Why would the US deliberately jeopardize its relations with Pakistan, that too at this crucial juncture? 

And there are so many other ways to jeopardize the relationship rather than take the blame of killing sleeping ground troops. I wonder if the pilot knew beforehand that the Pakistanis did not have SAMs, because had they had SAMs, then it would have been a suicide mission for the chopper troops. Ah well, a lot of things are still unanswered, let us not give too much credence to anonymous sources and save our breath till the report is out.

I posted that news piece just to open doors to newer angles.

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## Vassnti

Bhairava said:


> 2.5 km to 300 yards. That's a pretty big modification.



I noticed the confusion of 300m and 2.5km in differing reports, this may be due to confusion over the distance the posts were appart 300m and the distance from the border 2.5km?


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## Desert Fox

*Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes *

*MOSCOW&#8212;Russia said it may not let NATO use its territory to supply troops in Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't seriously consider its objections to a U.S.-led missile shield for Europe, Russia's ambassador to NATO said Monday.*

Russia has stepped up its objections to the antimissile system in Europe, threatening last week to deploy its own ballistic missiles on the border of the European Union to counter the move. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization says the shield is meant to thwart an attack from a rogue state such as Iran, that it poses no threat to Russia, and that the alliance will go ahead with the plan despite Moscow's objections.

Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes - WSJ.com

Courtesy of Mr Ogannisyan for posting this article in this thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/143551-russia-considers-blocking-nato-supply-routes.html

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## Desert Fox

So on one side we have Pakistan closing NATO supply routes due to NATO pissing Pakistan off, and now you have Russia threatening to close whatever NATO supply lines go through its territory or the territory of the countries on which it has a lot of influence, so NATO is screwed.

Russia is not Pakistan, even if NATO shifts all of their supply lines to the north, that would mean more logistical problems due to the harsh cold climate during the winter, transit cost doubles, tripled, or quadrupled and of course they would be under constant pressure from the Russian bear to do as it demands otherwise those 140,000+ troops are stranded in Afghanistan.


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## livingdead

bilalhaider said:


> So you ignore the BBC reports, & all the reports from all reputable sources that say the posts were 1.5 miles from the border. You choose to accept Mr Abbas's *alleged* statement in this case, but you don't accept his claim when he says that the attack of the NATO Forces on the Pakistan soldiers was an unprovoked act of aggression. You can't cherry pick like this. If you agree with one of the claims by your source, you have to agree with all of them. Did Major Abbas measure the distance himself?
> 
> And btw, I am still waiting for you to quote a reliable Pakistani source that says Major Abbas said that. The US media is known for fabrications & prejudice against Pakistan, as was seen in the RD case.



A pakistani source. I dont trust anything other than Dawn, dont know about you.
"......The DG ISPR said the attack took place within 200-300 meters within Pakistans borders, adding the area had been cleared of militants. He said investigations were still going on about the two posts namely Volcano and Golden made beyond Salala....."
Nato attack can have grave consequences: DG ISPR

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## Developereo

This looks like a deliberate setup by the Afghans. The Afghan 'intelligence' sources are notoriously unprofessional; there have been cases where Afghan civilians were gunned down by NATO and it turned out the Afghan 'intelligence' was just settling scores.

This does not exonerate NATO in any way; they are the ones who pulled the trigger.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, we should close the supply routes PERMANENTLY and let NATO and the Afghans sort out the blame between themselves.

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## iPhone

Developereo said:


> This looks like a deliberate setup by the Afghans. The Afghan 'intelligence' sources are notoriously unprofessional; there have been cases where Afghan civilians were gunned down by NATO and it turned out the Afghan 'intelligence' was just settling scores.
> 
> This does not exonerate NATO in any way; they are the ones who pulled the trigger.
> 
> As far as Pakistan is concerned, we should close the supply routes PERMANENTLY and let NATO and the Afghans sort out the blame between themselves.



and we should pursue a legal case against NATO.


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The above two are perfect examples of 'speculation'.
> 
> While both of you continue to insist that opinions be reserved till 'final report is released' (BTW, Pakistan's 'final report' has been made clear by the DG ISPR), you have no problems confidently predicting that whatever this 'final report' will be, it will contradict the Pakistani position and somehow be magically true.
> 
> Yet again hypocrisy and circular arguments.


 
Yeah true. It does come under speculation. Just how the past events shaped up prejudiced by thinking. This, ofcourse, can be entirely different.

---------- Post added at 07:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 AM ----------




Vassnti said:


> I noticed the confusion of 300m and 2.5km in differing reports, this may be due to confusion over the distance the posts were appart 300m and the distance from the border 2.5km?


 
I guess its the other way around. 300 m from the border and 2.5 km apart.


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## manojb

Developereo said:


> This looks like a deliberate setup by the Afghans. The Afghan 'intelligence' sources are notoriously unprofessional; there have been cases where Afghan civilians were gunned down by NATO and it turned out the Afghan 'intelligence' was just settling scores.
> 
> This does not exonerate NATO in any way; they are the ones who pulled the trigger.
> 
> As far as Pakistan is concerned, we should close the supply routes PERMANENTLY and let NATO and the Afghans sort out the blame between themselves.


i thought same, only difference i replaced afgans with Talibans. 
Who will be most benefiting from closing of NATO supplies ?


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## Bhairava

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 'Retraction' would be to accept that:
> 
> 1. Pakistani forces did indeed fire on NATO troops
> 2. Pakistan did not try and contact NATO after the attack started
> 3. Pakistani soldiers did not die in the attack, or far fewer than 24 died.


 
Accepting this was a case of friendly fire and not "deliberate" would also amount to retracting.

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## livingdead

Developereo said:


> This looks like a deliberate setup by the Afghans. The Afghan 'intelligence' sources are notoriously unprofessional; there have been cases where Afghan civilians were gunned down by NATO and it turned out the Afghan 'intelligence' was just settling scores.
> 
> This does not exonerate NATO in any way; they are the ones who pulled the trigger.
> 
> As far as Pakistan is concerned, we should close the supply routes PERMANENTLY and let NATO and the Afghans sort out the blame between themselves.


The attack went on for an hour. They did not stop even when told by pakistanis.
The pakistani soldiers responded to the attack. - Athar Abbas
General Athar Abbas, Pakistan military Spokesman - FRANCE 24


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## Major Sam

VCheng said:


> Grievous as those losses are, they pale in comparison to an out and war: *millions *dead and displaced.



so u r waiting for the time when these increase to a million?


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## iPhone

KarachiPunk said:


> what about thousands of other non military orphans, who will probably never even receive the allownces and compensation etc??? these guys are paid and insured to give up their live, its their job
> 
> in civilian case, the families are literally destroyed because they had their properties/homes destroyed, and in this case the military will shower this orphan will life time allowances that its not even a big deal



you really are a punk aren't you. the entire nation has grieved and mourned the thousands of civilians deaths and ophaned children just as they are mourning the soldiers, except for you and the hanful of logical ones who thanked you for this ill mannered post.

what does a Pakistani soldier make anyway? what benefit does PA provide to the family that they can live a lavish life? what lavish lifesytle is this baby going to be showered with by the army? what is the future of this baby and the young widow?

In case of civilians, they got state compensation, too. but why are you making everything about money? is money worth the loss of dear ones? what is wrong with you man and those who are thanking you. koi insaniyat hai tum logon mein? do you feel anything?


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## T-Rex

KarachiPunk said:


> too much fodder here for Vcheng to troll at will, you are lucky the way you are sitting as some bharati in america and operating under pakistani flag



*We can see how worried you are for NATO and the US!*

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## karan.1970

bilalhaider said:


> Do you believe in the same source claiming that the NATO's attack on Pakistani troops was an act of unprovoked aggression?



There is not enough information available to ascertain that. On the other hand, the statement about the distance from border does not require any judgement on the part of ISPR and hence can be taken on face value. For the other part, there needs to be corroboration from USA/NATO side, which is still awaited..

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## Bhairava

*@ bilalhaider, Agnostic Muslim.*

Watch this video at 1:45.

Now it becomes clear that the Pakistani soldiers were not killed in sleep but they were retaliating to the NATO attack.

Yet another 'modification' from the original account.

http://www.france24.com/en/20111128-interview-general-athar-abbas-spokesman-for-pakistan-military-nato-strikes-killed-soldiers-afghanistan-terrorism

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## Zarvan

Bhairava said:


> *@ bilalhaider, Agnistic Muslim.*
> 
> Watch this video at 1:45.
> 
> Now it becomes clear that the Pakistani soldiers were not killed in sleep but they were retaliating to the NATO attack.
> 
> One more 'modification'.
> 
> General Athar Abbas, Pakistan military Spokesman - FRANCE 24


Sir what the hell do you expect if some one is firing on you and you also have weapons and you are sitting in your home to defend it what will you do sir they had to fire back and they should fire back when ever this happens again and next time the should fire and make sure that it is NATO who pay the price


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## VelocuR

About Pakistan soliders checkposts:


&#8220;This was a visible, well-made post, on top of ridges, made of concrete. Militants don&#8217;t operate from mountaintops, from concrete structures.&#8221;

bastard NATO.

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## Bhairava

Zarvan said:


> Sir what the hell do you expect if some one is firing on you and you also have weapons and you are sitting in your home to defend it what will you do sir they had to fire back and they should fire back when ever this happens again and next time the should fire and make sure that it is NATO who pay the price



No man I'm not faulting the fallen. They did what any soldier worth his salt will do. Fight till the last breath. My respects for that.

I was just saying how yesterday it was claimed that the soldiers were killed in their sleep. Now it is clear that they were not killed in their sleep, but rather there was gunfire from both sides.


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## Developereo

iPhone said:


> and we should pursue a legal case against NATO.



I doubt it will do much good; a lot can be excused in the fog of war.



manojb said:


> i thought same, only difference i replaced afgans with Talibans.
> Who will be most benefiting from closing of NATO supplies ?



NATO doesn't take recommendations from Taliban, but they have a history of taking Afghan 'intelligence' at face value and killing the wrong people (including scores of Afghan civilians).

Like I wrote, the blame game is between NATO and Afghan forces. As far as Pakistan is concerned, we are not interested in their excuses.



hinduguy said:


> The attack went on for an hour. They did not stop even when told by pakistanis.
> The pakistani soldiers responded to the attack. - Athar Abbas
> General Athar Abbas, Pakistan military Spokesman - FRANCE 24



Did NATO acknowledge receiving Pakistani communications? If not, they can always claim they never heard from Pakistan and it was all a case of mistaken identity.


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## Oldman1

Afghans say commando unit was attacked before airstrike was called on Pakistan - The Washington Post

*Both sides said they believed they were attacking insurgents along the border. A senior Pakistani defense official acknowledged that Pakistani troops fired first, sending a flare, followed by mortar and machine-gun fire, toward what he said was suspicious activity in the brush-covered area below their high-altitude outpost barely 500 yards from the border.*

If you think about it, both sides in an incident when Pakistan troops were killed by NATO forces is by responding to an attack. Not the other way around. Remember the two Pakistani soldiers were killed cause they fired warning shots which can be mistaken for firing on the aircraft. Nobody is suppose to fire warning shots at aircraft. Its too stupid. And then they fire on ISAF personnel that were nearby, its understandable that they believe they were firing possible insurgents but they need to make sure.

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## Oldman1

I wouldn't worry too much since its the same country that blockaded Berlin.


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## livingdead

Developereo said:


> I doubt it will do much good; a lot can be excused in the fog of war.
> 
> 
> 
> NATO doesn't take recommendations from Taliban, but they have a history of taking Afghan 'intelligence' at face value and killing the wrong people (including scores of Afghan civilians).
> 
> Like I wrote, the blame game is between NATO and Afghan forces. As far as Pakistan is concerned, we are not interested in their excuses.
> 
> 
> 
> Did NATO acknowledge receiving Pakistani communications? If not, they can always claim they never heard from Pakistan and it was all a case of mistaken identity.


I think that will be part of Investigation. The initial story that Nato came and killed sleeping soldier without provocation is changing to firing on each other for 1 hour now, which is pointing towards mistaken identity or hostile action from both sides.


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## SMC

Oldman1 said:


> Afghans say commando unit was attacked before airstrike was called on Pakistan - The Washington Post
> 
> *Both sides said they believed they were attacking insurgents along the border. A senior Pakistani defense official acknowledged that Pakistani troops fired first, sending a flare, followed by mortar and machine-gun fire, toward what he said was suspicious activity in the brush-covered area below their high-altitude outpost barely 500 yards from the border.*
> 
> If you think about it, both sides in an incident when Pakistan troops were killed by NATO forces is by responding to an attack. Not the other way around. Remember the two Pakistani soldiers were killed cause they fired warning shots which can be mistaken for firing on the aircraft. Nobody is suppose to fire warning shots at aircraft. Its too stupid. And then they fire on ISAF personnel that were nearby, its understandable that they believe they were firing possible insurgents but they need to make sure.



yes, 2.5 km is certainly nearby.  In fact, now you can fire guns at 2.5km. 

Quite lying, will ya? Only ones believing your lies are the bharatis and the 'iraq-had-wmds' brigade.

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## Al Bhatti

regular said:


> To use it against Iran if they need to......ummm....This is very sad on Pakistan's part if it happens......



No GCC country wants any harm to happen to Pakistan. The base is just a backup for something that will be utilized if the need arises. UAE will not initiate any attack on any country.


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## Bhairava

SMC said:


> yes, 2.5 km is certainly nearby. In fact, now you can fire guns at 2.5km.
> 
> Quite lying, will ya? Only ones believing your lies are the bharatis and the 'iraq-had-wmds' brigade.



Did you not know ?

Athar Abbas has made it abundantly clear that the border posts were 300 m from the Afghan border and not 2.5 km as claimed previously.



> Abbas said the two military posts, named "Volcano" and "Golden," were located on a ridge in Mohmand region around 300 yards (meters) from the border with Afghanistan. He said their exact location had been provided to NATO and that the area had recently been cleared of militants


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## Oldman1

hinduguy said:


> I think that will be part of Investigation. The initial story that Nato came and killed sleeping soldier without provocation is changing to firing on each other for 1 hour now, which is pointing towards mistaken identity or hostile action from both sides.



Exactly, what is the benefit of destroy two little outposts just to get the Pakistani govt. angry and make an enemy out of them.


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## maverick1977

Oldman1 said:


> Afghans say commando unit was attacked before airstrike was called on Pakistan - The Washington Post
> 
> *Both sides said they believed they were attacking insurgents along the border. A senior Pakistani defense official acknowledged that Pakistani troops fired first, sending a flare, followed by mortar and machine-gun fire, toward what he said was &#8220;suspicious activity&#8221; in the brush-covered area below their high-altitude outpost barely 500 yards from the border.*
> 
> If you think about it, both sides in an incident when Pakistan troops were killed by NATO forces is by responding to an attack. Not the other way around. Remember the two Pakistani soldiers were killed cause they fired warning shots which can be mistaken for firing on the aircraft. Nobody is suppose to fire warning shots at aircraft. Its too stupid. And then they fire on ISAF personnel that were nearby, its understandable that they believe they were firing possible insurgents but they need to make sure.



How would you explain, that for 2 hours the fire fight was going on.. that too one sided, as most of the personnel died in the sleeping bunks??? care to explain that one? and how will you explain that despite repeated request from PA battalion commander to stop attacking posts it was still attacked? and then another dispatch was send to the post and that was attacked as well.. there are lot of questionable circumstance which points out that it was deliberate targeting of Pakistani army posts. 

now the question is why it was done, couple of possibilities in my mind, may be someone else can think more and share more of thier opinion, i think 

1) to see pakistans reaction and to figure out who are Pakistani allies willing to condemn this attack. get a sense of international community reaction, specifically from China, 

2) may be to sneak past some US/Afghan based insurgents/terrorists to create chaos in Pakistan

3) to figure out how well prepared pakistani army response will be.

4) to drag pakistan into an aggressive reponse so that Pakistan will be kicked out of Bonn conference, so as to eliminate any possible role of Pakistan in future of Afghanistan, hence, giving all the major tasks to india for the future of Afghanistan??

Any comments or any more idea on why this was done, if it was deliberate?


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## Al Bhatti



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## Lankan Ranger

*See this -* http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...fghanistan-switching-afghan-army-control.html


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## VelocuR

Huma Imtiaz, The Express Tribunes correspondent based in Washington DC discusses the impact this attack has had in DC. She says although this has been *one of the worst years for Pakistan-US relations, this incident makes matters much worse.*


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## Nirvana

Are the NATO Supply Routes Permanently Blocked ?


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## VelocuR

China and Russia became now more closer to Pakistan after RD/OBL cases... 

*Pakistani FM briefs China, Russia on NATO attacks, gov't decisions*

ISLAMABAD, Nov. 28 (Xinhua) -- *Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar on Monday briefed her Chinese and Russian counterparts on NATO attacks and the decisions taken by the Pakistani governmen*t following the strikes which reportedly killed 24 Pakistani troops and injured 13 others, according to APP, a government-run news agency in Pakistan.

*Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar spoke to the Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi on Monday to brief him on the NATO/ISAF attacks and the decisions taken by the Defense Committee of the Cabinet (DCC) on Saturday.*

*The Foreign Minister had a 40-minute conversation in which she informed her Chinese counterpart of the extreme outrage in Pakistan, according to a press release issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.*
*
Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi expressed deep shock and strong concern over the incident and extended condolences to the aggrieved families. He said that Pakistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity must be respected. He also called for a thorough and serious investigation into the matter.*

*On Monday evening, the Pakistani Foreign Minister also briefed her Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov on the unprovoked NATO/ISAF attack on Pakistani territory and the decisions taken by DCC.*

*She underscored that besides being a gross violation of established international norms, such attacks pose a threat to regional peace and stability as well.*

Lavrov expressed sympathy for the loss of lives and injuries as well as complete understanding of Pakistan's position, according to a press release issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
*
He underscored that Pakistan and Russia were partners in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization and also partners in promoting regional cooperation. He stressed the need of NATO thoroughly investigating the incident.*

On early Saturday morning, NATO fighter jets and gunship helicopters struck two army checkposts in Pakistan's northwest tribal area of Mohmmand Agency bordering Afghanistan, killing 24 Pakistani troops including two senior officers and injuring 13 others. The incident led to decisions by the Pakistani government to close the supply lines for the NATO troops stationed in Afghanistan through Pakistan and vacate a major U.S. Shamsi airbase in the country's southwest province of Balochistan within 15 days.

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## Lankan Ranger

Nirvana said:


> Are the NATO Supply Routes Permanently Blocked ?



NATO supply stopped permanently: Malik - PakTribune


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## Safriz

China paper says U.S. fans terror by Pakistan attack | Reuters


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## Al Bhatti

Lankan Ranger said:


> NATO supply stopped permanently: Malik - PakTribune



That clown Rehman Malik is back to fool people.

As per the link: "The minister said that NATO containers, which have been stopped, would not be allowed to cross the Pak-Afghan border."

So they can still transit by air, from Oman or UAE to Afghanistan by Air through Pakistan's Air space.

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## iPhone

Developereo said:


> I doubt it will do much good; a lot can be excused in the fog of war.
> a



Doesnt mean we shouldn't try. I'm all for trying and not succeeding rather than not trying at all. The world should know what these tyrants did over here.


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## Lankan Ranger

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/143575-pakistan-army-warns-nato.html


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## Developereo

hinduguy said:


> I think that will be part of Investigation. The initial story that Nato came and killed sleeping soldier without provocation is changing to firing on each other for 1 hour now, which is pointing towards mistaken identity or hostile action from both sides.



There's no inconsistency. Surely you don't think the entire military post was asleep? They have sentries and they are the ones who fired warning shots.

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## Nirvana

Pakistan border closure will have little effect on Nato's Afghanistan campaign | World news | The Guardian


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## Lankan Ranger

Russian Response 

No excuse to violate Pakistan sovereignty: Russia | World | DAWN.COM

Chinese Response 

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-11/28/c_131275303.htm

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## VelocuR

Nirvana said:


> Pakistan border closure will have little effect on Nato's Afghanistan campaign | World news | The Guardian(Nov 27)



Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes - WSJ.com (Nov 28)

Oh Indian trolling....


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## soul hacker

Nirvana said:


> Pakistan border closure will have little effect on Nato's Afghanistan campaign | World news | The Guardian



yar unho ne yahi khna hai....hota bht kuch hai


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## Developereo

Nirvana said:


> Pakistan border closure will have little effect on Nato's Afghanistan campaign | World news | The Guardian



Did you read the full article?

_The route through Uzbekistan is currently in question, however, after a key bridge near the Afghan border was damaged by an explosion 10 days ago and has been closed since.

Neither the US nor the Uzbeks have commented on the cause of the explosion, although there are fears it could be the work of *the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which is allied to the Taliban.*_


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## Nirvana

soul hacker said:


> yar unho ne yahi khna hai....hota bht kuch hai



Don't You think Instead this will Effect Pakistan !!

Pakistan Worsening of relationship with U.S Will effect Pakistan since Most of Pakistan Military Weapons and Ammunitions comes from U.S And most of Military weapons Deals will be severely Effected !!
Not to forget The Spare Pakistan Need for its Weapons !

Also there is a Chance of U.S Suspending Civillian and Military Aid


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## Lankan Ranger

*Russia has threatened to cut off NATO supply routes to Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't compromise on its missile defense plans, Moscow's NATO envoy, Dmitry Rogozin, has said. *

Russia Threatens To Cut Off NATO Afghanistan Transit | EurasiaNet.org

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## Nirvana

Developereo said:


> Did you read the full article?
> 
> _The route through Uzbekistan is currently in question, however, after a key bridge near the Afghan border was damaged by an explosion 10 days ago and has been closed since.
> 
> Neither the US nor the Uzbeks have commented on the cause of the explosion, although there are fears it could be the work of *the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which is allied to the Taliban.*_



Yeah , I read that but There is Tajikstan Route Beside you think the Pak Govt will Hold the Block of NATO Supplies Permenantly ?

This will Severely Effect U.S-Pak Relations !


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## Al Bhatti

Super Falcon said:


> welll when when army and airforce wil wake up and answer all attacks of Nato and USA why we do attack on Nato and say sorry this is by mistake why we dont do this toooo US saying that Apache is best and it can see pin on ground so how it is possible that it did not seen pak flag anyway this is delibrate for sure if i have been chief i have send all of my airforce to kill those bastered of the skies or if i would been late should have sent all airfoorce jets to afghanistan and kill Nato soldiers and said we are sorry it is by mistake


 
Well sorry to add to the fears, but what if the next strike would be a *stealth* plane or a *stealth* drone flying deep inside Pakistan and attacking one of the key national security institutions or a "militant hideout", a repeat of the "OBL raid" but with a bigger target inside Pakistan.

Well, if they use a stealth drone and on it's way back it is "somehow spotted" and shot down down, but the damage would have been already done. And what the enemy of Pakistan has lost is just a drone but would have gained a big shot and Pakistan would have lost it's pride for as long as time can tell.

The drone can come from anywhere but the Shamsi Airbase* as probably the USA cannot afford jeopardizing the relations between UAE and Pakistan but the many other bases under US control inside Pakistan, what about them?

* the base was given to UAE and leased to USA with the consent of Pakistani government +army


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## T-Rex

Oldman1 said:


> I wouldn't worry too much since its the same country that blockaded Berlin.



*Now, don't tell us that you can still manage to sell your garbage in the name of democracy and human rights!*


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## 53fd

Nirvana said:


> Yeah , I read that but There is Tajikstan Route Beside you think the Pak Govt will Hold the Block of NATO Supplies Permenantly ?
> 
> This will Severely Effect U.S-Pak Relations !



The IMU has a strong presence in Tajikistan as well.

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## Al Bhatti

hatf IX said:


> google earth over view of shamsi air base and u can even see the drones in this video . . . . @1:30



This is photo is from the early years of the "war on terror" when it was in full swing.

The base was given to UAE and leased to USA with the consent of Pakistani government + army


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## regular

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> To 'SUCCEED' Pakistan perhaps must be the above, but to demand, argue and campaign for change does not require the above - the latter will set the stage for when the nation is politically and economically stronger.
> 
> The problem with VC's argument is that he seeks to discourage even 'demanding, arguing and campaigning for change'.


Looks like he is a friend of Haqqani our ex-Ambassador to US or belongs to his sympathiser groups.......


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## Lankan Ranger

*Should Pakistan close its air space for NATO? *

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## Omar1984

pakdefender said:


> These UAE sheikhs are the worst of the worse , they used this air strip for their trips to Pakistan for Bustard hunting , then they handed this over to the US and we the Pakistanis took the responsibility for it.



Blame Nawaz who gave the UAE sheikhs this base.

Pakistan should not give our bases to countries known as slaves of the west.

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## Omar1984

*Pakistan records protest at UNSC* 

UNITED NATIONS: Pakistans permanent envoy to United Nations (UN) Abdullah Hussain Haroon in his letter to UNs Security Council has lodged strong protest against Natos attack on Pakistans border post in Mohmand Agency, Geo News reported.

In his letter Haroon conveyed to the UNSC and the General Assembly the decisions taken by the Pakistan Cabinets Defence Committee.

Writing to UNSC was the first thing the ambassador to UN did after reaching New York.


Pakistan records protest at UNSC

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## Riz

Time to get s-400 from russia


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## regular

Lankan Ranger said:


> *Russia has threatened to cut off NATO supply routes to Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't compromise on its missile defense plans, Moscow's NATO envoy, Dmitry Rogozin, has said. *
> 
> Russia Threatens To Cut Off NATO Afghanistan Transit | EurasiaNet.org


Oh! Excellent! news from our new partners/Ex-Rivals .Everything is happening in favor of our poor soldiers , the sacrifice of their innocent blood didn't go in vain.......Alhamdolillah!.......

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## Al Bhatti

Tayyab1796 said:


> There r a few important questions ...and even considering these questions probably we can find answers :
> *Is Shamsi air base really just an airstrip ?
> * Why is it so important that UAE's minister had to personally request to Zardari to let them hav it ?
> * Why did we vacate this air base in the first place ? (a very important question...)
> * Did Zardari really decline UAE's request or its just for common man's consumption by Zardari's spoksperson ?



USA cannot afford jeopardizing the relations between UAE and Pakistan but the many other bases under US control inside Pakistan, what about them? As i have told in other threads it is being used just as a scape goat by the government and army.

NO GCC country wants any harm to come to Pakistan. UAE requires the strip for the time of need for itself.


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## Developereo

Agni5000 said:


> If they block permanently, We may see bolochistan as new independent country. India should step in and provide through IRAN.
> Put pressure on western boarder.



Please try that.

I am sure the Iranians would be most interested to learn about Indian help for NATO and Baloch separatists.

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## Lankan Ranger

Agni5000 said:


> If they block permanently, We may see bolochistan as new independent country. India should step in and *provide through IRAN.*
> Put pressure on western boarder.



*Iran* Are you sure?


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

StandForInsaf said:


> Begarit UAE walay usa ko sell kar gaye air base .....



we r beghairat to give them that base and they can't let u.s without our permission

TARIQ


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## regular

Developereo said:


> Did you read the full article?
> 
> _The route through Uzbekistan is currently in question, however, after a key bridge near the Afghan border was damaged by an explosion 10 days ago and has been closed since.
> 
> Neither the US nor the Uzbeks have commented on the cause of the explosion, although there are fears it could be the work of *the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which is allied to the Taliban.*_


Okay! then let us wait and see when they will run out of TOILET PAPERS.......


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Al Bhatti said:


> USA cannot afford jeopardizing the relations between UAE and Pakistan but the many other bases under US control inside Pakistan, what about them? As i have told in other threads it is being used just as a scape goat by the government and army.
> 
> NO GCC country wants any harm to come to Pakistan. *UAE requires the strip for the time of need for itself*.



Assalam alaikum

u know my pov about gulf countries and arab but i don't like the bold part , 

we should not give any country access to our bases no matter how close we r, either we r with them or not but not let them do some stupid act and then say hey uae is responsilbe for that act coz the base is under them

TARIQ


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## Areesh

Agni5000 said:


> If they block permanently, We may see bolochistan as new independent country. India should step in and provide through *IRAN*.
> Put pressure on western boarder.



Lol about Iran.  

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------

*Pak Minorities: Christian leaders back armed forces*



> The protest was led by Salim Gabriel, Hanif Maseeh, Javed Sindhu, Pastor Asif Rafique, Javed Enayat and Madam Tabassum. The speakers said the Nato strike was not the first of its kind, as Western forces had repeatedly violated Pakistan&#8217;s borders. &#8220;How can we forget the great sacrifices of our brave soldiers? All Christians of Pakistan categorically condemn this dastardly attack,&#8221; said one speaker. &#8220;If any country or alliance of countries tries to intrude our borders, our response should be very hard and fast.&#8221; The Christian leaders pledged their full support for the army in the defence of the country&#8217;s sovereignty and integrity. They said that the United Nations must take note of the incident and play a part in stopping such attacks on Pakistan.



Pak Minorities: Christian leaders back armed forces &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## regular

Yes! it must be closed down too till the culprits of the incidents are not handed over to us......for punishment......Insha-Allah......

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## Lankan Ranger

*Iran-Pakistan cooperation guarantees regional security, stability*

*Head of Iran-Pakistan Parliamentary Friendship Group, Ali-Akbar Aqaie, said on Monday that Tehran-Islamabad cooperation would guarantee security and stability of the region.
*
Aqaie told Pakistani Ambassador in Tehran Khalid Aziz Baber that Iranian Majlis deputies favor expansion of Tehran-Islamabad cooperation. 

He said Tehran and Islamabad can guarantee security and stability of the region, fight terrorism as well as smuggle of narcotic drugs through close cooperation. 

He added that the two sides should not let bullying powers divide them. 

Khalid Aziz for his part appreciated Iran for its humanitarian assistance to Pakistani flood-torn people, saying the Islamic Republic of Iran has always been a pioneer in providing aid to Pakistanis and has never left us alone. 

*Calling mutual bonds unbreakable, he hoped that the two countries should upgrade mutual ties in all areas. 
*

Iran MP: Iran-Pakistan cooperation guarantees regional security, stability

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## SpArK

Pakistani lawyers rally to condemn NATO strikes on Pakistani troops, in Karachi, Pakistan, on Monday, Nov 28. The NATO airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers went on for almost two hours and continued even after Pakistani commanders had pleaded with coalition forces to stop, the army claimed Monday in charges that could further inflame anger in Pakistan. Placard on right reads " Go ahead Pakistan army we are with you."

Shakil Adil/AP


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## MZUBAIR

They should but they wont...
coz of $$$$$

Corruption is at peak......the severity of protest is not enough ...Higher authorities have tasted the blood of thier own people....

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## Nirvana

Pakistan ties troubled but repairable: US general | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


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## OrionHunter

*Huh? When was it open to NATO? I don't think it ever was!*


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## SpArK




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## regular

Nirvana said:


> Pakistan ties troubled but repairable: US general | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


Yes! the US General is right the ties are repairable if they hand over us the guyz responsible for spilling out the blood of our innocent soldiers.......

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## SpArK




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## MZUBAIR

Nirvana said:


> Don't You think Instead this will Effect Pakistan !!
> 
> Pakistan Worsening of relationship with U.S Will effect Pakistan since Most of Pakistan Military Weapons and Ammunitions comes from U.S And most of Military weapons Deals will be severely Effected !!
> Not to forget The Spare Pakistan Need for its Weapons !


 PAK is no more dependent on US, mnay wepaons including missiles are manufactured locally........Besides there is no threat until we have nukes and fingers on trigger


> Also there is a Chance of U.S Suspending Civillian and Military Aid



*PAK already terminated Aid !!!*


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## Mytime

Thousands of Pakistani Soldiers have died and even more civilians have perished in the name of WOT and nothing much has happened in the past , behind the scenes some dealings and some give n take would happen which common people would not even come to know .. and one fine day we see that all is well !

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## regular

Areesh said:


> Lol about Iran.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
> 
> *Pak Minorities: Christian leaders back armed forces*
> 
> 
> 
> Pak Minorities: Christian leaders back armed forces &#8211; The Express Tribune


Oh! Thanks a lot U guyz are true Pakistanis and cares for ure countrymen........and demands the right of justice for our poor soldiers......


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## SpArK




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## Skull and Bones

They should, but don't know they'll or not.


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## Donatello

maverick1977 said:


> How would you explain, that for 2 hours the fire fight was going on.. that too one sided, as most of the personnel died in the sleeping bunks??? care to explain that one? and how will you explain that despite repeated request from PA battalion commander to stop attacking posts it was still attacked? and then another dispatch was send to the post and that was attacked as well.. there are lot of questionable circumstance which points out that it was deliberate targeting of Pakistani army posts.
> 
> now the question is why it was done, couple of possibilities in my mind, may be someone else can think more and share more of thier opinion, i think
> 
> 1) to see pakistans reaction and to figure out who are Pakistani allies willing to condemn this attack. get a sense of international community reaction, specifically from China,
> 
> 2) may be to sneak past some US/Afghan based insurgents/terrorists to create chaos in Pakistan
> 
> 3) to figure out how well prepared pakistani army response will be.
> 
> 4) to drag pakistan into an aggressive reponse so that Pakistan will be kicked out of Bonn conference, so as to eliminate any possible role of Pakistan in future of Afghanistan, hence, giving all the major tasks to india for the future of Afghanistan??
> 
> Any comments or any more idea on why this was done, if it was deliberate?



Ummm there is one answer for all of your 4 questions.

Americans are terrorists and the only country waging wars since WW II.


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## regular

Mytime said:


> Thousands of Pakistani Soldiers have died and even more civilians have perished in the name of WOT and nothing much has happened in the past , behind the scenes some dealings and some give n take would happen which common people would not even come to know .. and one fine day we see that all is well !


So what U think they flying over India or Iran to reach Afghanistan. or from outer space..????......

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## Lankan Ranger

Karzai to discuss NATO strike, Bonn Conference with Zardari | Pakistan Today | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia


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## Imran Khan

then from were these guys get luxury ? don't close it please invite them here in islo for rule us so they will never attack us blindly .


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## regular

MZUBAIR said:


> They should but they wont...
> coz of $$$$$
> 
> Corruption is at peak......the severity of protest is not enough ...Higher authorities have tasted the blood of thier own people....


Looks like U found out that our ruling elites are nothing but bunch of VAMPIRES, needa get rid of them soon to save the innocent blood of our pplz..........

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## SpArK




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## Mytime

regular said:


> So what U think they flying over India or Iran to reach Afghanistan. or from outer space..????......



If you get your facts right you will know that only one third of NATO supplies to Afghan are reaching via Pakistan ... 

Now to the point , Your leaders both Military and Civilian are in cahoots with NATO , your leaders are screaming on top of your voice now , there are already 1000s of pak army men dead in WOT since last ten years .... did any thing change then???


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## Omar1984

Pakistan needs a change in foreign policy.

Pakistan should move closer to Russia, Iran, and China. Pakistan should distance itself from U.S. and its war OF terror.

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## Lankan Ranger

Mytime said:


> If you get your facts right you will know that only one third of NATO supplies to Afghan are reaching via Pakistan ...



*Supplies are put on lorries and railways and moved across most of the Eurasian landmass before entering Afghanistan through the former Soviet republics of Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
*
*Russia Threatens To Cut Off NATO Afghanistan Transit

Russia has threatened to cut off NATO supply routes to Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't compromise on its missile defense plans, Moscow's NATO envoy, Dmitry Rogozin, has said. 
*
Russia Threatens To Cut Off NATO Afghanistan Transit | EurasiaNet.org

*Russian Response 
*
No excuse to violate Pakistan sovereignty: Russia | World | DAWN.COM

*Chinese Response 
*
China backs Pakistan's efforts in safeguarding independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity: FM

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## PakShaheen79

SpArK said:


>

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## Lankan Ranger




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## Sinnerman108

A more pertinent question would be

Is Pakistan CAPABLE to close it's airspace to NATO ?


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## Mav3rick

Nirvana said:


> Don't You think Instead this will Effect Pakistan !!
> 
> Pakistan Worsening of relationship with U.S Will effect Pakistan since Most of Pakistan Military Weapons and Ammunitions comes from U.S And most of Military weapons Deals will be severely Effected !!
> Not to forget The Spare Pakistan Need for its Weapons !
> 
> Also there is a Chance of U.S Suspending Civillian and Military Aid


 
Most of our weapons and their spares/ammunitions come from China. And the nation of Pakistan would actually welcome a suspension/ban on US 'aid' as the supposed 'aid' goes only to the politicians where as we all get to pay back the 'interest' on that aid which is not 'aid' at all but 'loan'!

We have suffered a loss of US$85 Billion on this US terror war which we have been compensated only US$ 10 Billion or so, isn't it better that we don't spend any more as our suffering in this terror war is more then that of the NATO/ISAF/US combined? on top of that the compensation is ironically declared 'aid' to the whole world.


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## Lankan Ranger




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## Raja.Pakistani



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## PakShaheen79

salman108 said:


> A more pertinent question would be
> 
> Is Pakistan CAPABLE to close it's airspace to NATO ?



A more pertinent question would be

Is US/NATO CAPABLE to open another war front if Pakistan decides to do so?

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## Al Bhatti

Lankan Ranger said:


> *Iran-Pakistan cooperation guarantees regional security, stability*
> 
> *Head of Iran-Pakistan Parliamentary Friendship Group, Ali-Akbar Aqaie, said on Monday that Tehran-Islamabad cooperation would guarantee security and stability of the region.
> *
> Aqaie told Pakistani Ambassador in Tehran Khalid Aziz Baber that Iranian Majlis deputies favor expansion of Tehran-Islamabad cooperation.
> 
> He said Tehran and Islamabad can guarantee security and stability of the region, fight terrorism as well as smuggle of narcotic drugs through close cooperation.
> 
> He added that the two sides should not let bullying powers divide them.
> 
> Khalid Aziz for his part appreciated Iran for its humanitarian assistance to Pakistani flood-torn people, saying the Islamic Republic of Iran has always been a pioneer in providing aid to Pakistanis and &#8220;has never left us alone.&#8221;
> 
> *Calling mutual bonds &#8220;unbreakable&#8221;, he hoped that the two countries should upgrade mutual ties in all areas.
> *
> 
> Iran MP: Iran-Pakistan cooperation guarantees regional security, stability




This does not look good for Pakistan. Probably this was what the US was wanting to happen after the strikes.


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## MZUBAIR

salman108 said:


> A more pertinent question would be
> 
> Is Pakistan CAPABLE to close it's airspace to NATO ?



Till this GOV and Miltary officers.............its not possible


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## Najam Khan

Lankan Ranger said:


> Karzai to discuss NATO strike, Bonn Conference with Zardari | Pakistan Today | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia



This was a complete setup. The timing is perfect for Bonn Conference. Boycotting it will fullfill the objective of US, we will have no say in future of Afghanistan. Some Military Analysts think that this operation was conducted by Special Ops task Force (which did OBL op as well), they had an air cover this time too.

Boycotting this conference only to raise our voice and protest against the un-just killing from a so called 'Friendly' isnt a good plan. Implementation is..e.g taking back Shamsi, halting the supply line for months and then decreasing it to the minimum possible level. Imposing ban on arrival of US/NATO containers at Karachi dockyard. And Finally demanding a big price to pay to these shuada(martyrs) and all 72 shuada who have lost their lives in such 'friendly fire' in past couple of years.

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## Omar1984

*Why did the allied forces attack ?*


The unprovoked attack by NATO forces has angered the nation well beyond all previous levels. At least 24 soldiers were martyred in this unprovoked attack. This attack has taken place at a time when a memo, allegedly written by a US citizen named Hussain Haqqani, is under investigation by the authorities. It is said the authorities are questioning this US citizen. It is of interest to note that the secret documents recovered from the US embassy in Teheran, and published by the Iranian authorities as Tehran Papers, mention a student leader of Karachi named Husain Haqqani who was on the payroll of the US authorities in Pakistan. It is not clear as to whether this is the same individual who became our ambassador to the US. That the ongoing questioning of this individual in connection with a memo aimed at destroying Pakistans military strength and independence was the immediate cause of the attack cannot be ruled out.

The NATO authorities have regretted the attack. Their regret, if any, might be that the attack did not have the desired effect, at least not in the short run. What is the US doing in our backyard along with the UK? Why is it in Afghanistan and why has it been continually destabilizing this country? Why is the US embarked on a suicide mission which will inevitably lead to World War III? It is because those who control the US want World War III. 

It is well established by researchers that the US government, the US Congress, the US armed forces and its so called diplomatic staff, work, not for the people of the US, but for a hidden cabal. They are mere stooges who carry out orders that come from elsewhere. Churchill called it the High Cabal. This cabal of international bankers is a set of families tied by blood and inter-marriages and secret societies. In 1961 President Kennedy talked to the media about secret societies, secret oaths and secret proceedings a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific, and political operations.


For this cabal the people of Europe and USA, as well as the rest of the world, are mere cannon fodder that, through wars manipulated and controlled on all sides by it, adds to its staggering wealth and power, inexorably paving the way to a One World Government under its control. President Woodrow Wilson wrote: Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had mens views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it. President Franklin D. Roosevelt wrote to an adviser: The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centres has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.

Col. Prouty, briefing officer to the US President from 1955-1963 wrote of a Secret Team of security-cleared individuals in and out of government who receive secret intelligence data gathered by the CIA and the National Security Agency (NSA) and who react to those data The power of the Team derives from its vast intra-governmental undercover infrastructure and its direct relationship with great private industries, mutual funds and investment houses, universities, and the news media, including foreign and domestic publishing housesAll true members of the Team remain in the power center whether in office with the incumbent administration or out of office with the hard-core set. They simply rotate to and from official jobs and the business world or the pleasant haven of academe. 

William Engdahl wrote in his book A Century of War  Anglo American Oil Politics and the New World Order that the power of the US currency and its military were intertwined into a single commodity  petroleum. It was for petroleum that British, American, German, French, Italian and other nations called their soldiers to warOil played a decisive role in the collapse of the Soviet Union. Oil defined American foreign policy in much of the world during the cold war. And oil defines American military actions since the end of the cold war as never before. 

It was in 2006 that a Ralph Peters published an article in the Armed forces Journal with the title Blood Borders  How a Better Middle East Would Look. In this article the maps of Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan were redrawn. Professor Chossudovsky wrote in 2007: The ultimate objective, combining military action, covert intelligence operations and war propaganda, is to break down the national fabric and transform sovereign countries into open economic territories, where natural resources can be plundered and confiscated under free market supervision. This control also extends to strategic oil and gas pipeline corridors (e.g. Afghanistan).

What are American agents like Raymond Davis and others, including diplomats, along with Blackwater mercenaries really doing in Pakistan? What are they doing in Balochistan, in Sind, in Punjab, in KPK and in Gilgit-Baltistan? Professor Chossudovsky writes: It is worth noting that the triggering of sectarian divisions and civil wars is contemplated in the process of redrawing of the map of the Middle East, where countries are slated to be broken up and transformed into territories. The map of the New Middle East, although not official, has been used by the US National War Academy. It was recently published in the Armed Forces Journal (June 2006). In this map, nation states are broken up, international borders are redefined along sectarian-ethnic lines, broadly in accordance with the interests of the Anglo-American oil giants. The map has also been used in a training program at NATOs Defense College for senior military officers. 

Pakistan may not want war but war is being imposed on Pakistan. While the task of diplomacy is to delay inevitable wars, the Pakistani leadership should sit down for two months to chalk out a long term strategy with national consensus and only then talk to the Americans. We can defend our homeland effectively provided we prepare day and night, quietly, fearlessly and with determination for the inevitable World War III.

The writer is vice-chancellor of Punjab University.



Why did the allied forces attack ? | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## Mytime

Lankan Ranger said:


> *Supplies are put on lorries and railways and moved across most of the Eurasian landmass before entering Afghanistan through the former Soviet republics of Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
> *
> *Russia Threatens To Cut Off NATO Afghanistan Transit
> 
> Russia has threatened to cut off NATO supply routes to Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't compromise on its missile defense plans, Moscow's NATO envoy, Dmitry Rogozin, has said.
> *
> Russia Threatens To Cut Off NATO Afghanistan Transit | EurasiaNet.org
> 
> *Russian Response
> *
> No excuse to violate Pakistan sovereignty: Russia | World | DAWN.COM
> 
> *Chinese Response
> *
> China backs Pakistan's efforts in safeguarding independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity: FM



Its only a matter of lip sympathy and verbal threats that we are seeing and reading every other day since past ten years


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## Zarvan

Because They Knew Pakistan would not hit back the day we will show them if they will kill Soldier in reply we will make sure 10 of Nato soldiers become History I guarantee you they will never attack again

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## Areesh

Al Bhatti said:


> This does not look good for Pakistan. Probably this was what the US was wanting to happen after the strikes.



What's wrong with that news?


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## VelocuR

iPhone said:


> Doesnt mean we shouldn't try. I'm all for trying and not succeeding rather than not trying at all. The world should know what these tyrants did over here.



*Pakistan records protest at UNSC* 

UNITED NATIONS: Pakistan&#8217;s permanent envoy to United Nations (UN) Abdullah Hussain Haroon in his letter to UN&#8217;s Security Council has lodged strong protest against Nato&#8217;s attack on Pakistan&#8217;s border post in Mohmand Agency, Geo News reported.

In his letter Haroon conveyed to the UNSC and the General Assembly the decisions taken by the Pakistan Cabinet&#8217;s Defence Committee.







Writing to UNSC was the first thing the ambassador to UN did after reaching New York.


Pakistan records protest at UNSC

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## Al Bhatti

salman108 said:


> A more pertinent question would be
> 
> Is Pakistan CAPABLE to close it's airspace to NATO ?



There might be increase in the no. flights of other countries to Afghanistan.


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## rabi kashmirii

yes,it should be


PAKISTAN ZINDABAD:pakistan


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## Lankan Ranger

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...fghanistan-switching-afghan-army-control.html


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## BATMAN

Quite on target.... i must say.

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## VelocuR

*"We can defend our homeland effectively provided we prepare day and night, quietly, fearlessly and with determination for the inevitable World War III "*

Love it.

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## fatman17

the whole thing needs to be viewed without the 'emotional' aspect. personally i am saddened and greived at this loss of life but in the 'fog of war' such incidents will continue to happen. having said that, one thing is a given - US/NATO/ISAF forces are 'trigger happy'. this is the 8th incident of so called 'friendly fire' against our troops. in afghanistan hundreds of civilians have been killed by 'friendly fire' incidents. secondly these western forces dont care what happens to the civilians and troops of their 'allies' - now what to do?
unfortunately we dont have many options. closing all doors to them will only 'isolate' us further. we have only ourselves to blame for this because we have bent over backwards in the past to 'accomodate' them and now they take these things for granted that we will not do anything. we cant start a war with the US/NATO/ISAF with the state of our economy. we just have to 'bite the bullet' and make the best of a very bad situation - 'situation is critical but not hopeless'.

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## BATMAN

OrionHunter said:


> *Huh? When was it open to NATO? I don't think it ever was!*



Idiot.. they had airbase in Pakistan.


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## StandForInsaf

Zarvan said:


> Because They Knew Pakistan would not hit back the day we will show them if they will kill Soldier in reply we will make sure 10 of Nato soldiers become History I guarantee you they will never attack again



I disagree most of your posts but this one *i must agree*  .

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## PakShaheen79

fatman17 said:


> the whole thing needs to be viewed without the 'emotional' aspect. personally i am saddened and greived at this loss of life but in the 'fog of war' such incidents will continue to happen. having said that, one thing is a given - US/NATO/ISAF forces are 'trigger happy'. this is the 8th incident of so called 'friendly fire' against our troops. in afghanistan hundreds of civilians have been killed by 'friendly fire' incidents. secondly these western forces dont care what happens to the civilians and troops of their 'allies' - now what to do?
> unfortunately we dont have many options. closing all doors to them will only 'isolate' us further. we have only ourselves to blame for this because we have bent over backwards in the past to 'accomodate' them and now they take these things for granted that we will not do anything. *we cant start a war with the US/NATO/ISAF with the state of our economy. *we just have to 'bite the bullet' and make the best of a very bad situation - 'situation is critical but not hopeless'.



And sir, believe me, neither can they start a war.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

fatman17 said:


> the whole thing needs to be viewed without the 'emotional' aspect. personally i am saddened and greived at this loss of life but in the 'fog of war' such incidents will continue to happen. having said that, one thing is a given - US/NATO/ISAF forces are 'trigger happy'. this is the 8th incident of so called 'friendly fire' against our troops. in afghanistan hundreds of civilians have been killed by 'friendly fire' incidents. secondly these western forces dont care what happens to the civilians and troops of their 'allies' - now what to do?
> unfortunately we dont have many options. closing all doors to them will only 'isolate' us further. we have only ourselves to blame for this because we have bent over backwards in the past to 'accomodate' them and now they take these things for granted that we will not do anything. we cant start a war with the US/NATO/ISAF with the state of our economy. we just have to 'bite the bullet' and make the best of a very bad situation - 'situation is critical but not hopeless'.



so u mean we keep on working for them jub tak Allah kuch nahi karain gay

TARIQ


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## AUz

Juice said:


> Lol, Americans are the only ones waging war since WWII! Behold the products of Muslim education!



You should also come out of delusional world--oh wait, you're a Westerner--brainwashed by its media and pathetic education system. 

People in your country still believe "We went to war to help Iraqis" ... How shameful is the fact that idiots like Herman Cain are running for the presidency of America? For a country with 100% literacy rate and $ 44,000 GDP per capita--this is pathetic.

Also just tell me that how many CIVILIANS have been killed by US bombings in last 50 years?


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## Sugarcane

regular said:


> Yes! the US General is right the ties are repairable *if *they hand over us the guyz responsible for spilling out the blood of our innocent soldiers.......



You are right till the if, after that you became emotional like me, they know that our leadership need $$$ and they have those, so every kind of damage is repairable, just wait couple for weeks.

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## VelocuR

Raja.Pakistani said:


>



A strong attacks by million Pakistanis on NATO....great!










*Change Your Avatar!*


"as an unannounced war on Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty&#8221;

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## OrionHunter

BATMAN said:


> Idiot.. they had airbase in Pakistan.


Stupid ignorant reply! They do not and did not have an AIRBASE in Pakistan. Period. What they have is an airfield for operating *drones* at Shamsi (which was also being used by US special forces until 2006), which had been *leased* by Pakistan to the Arab sheiks from Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries for falconry trips, decades ago. The UAE allowed the Americans to use the base as it belonged to them.

Pakistan Air Chief Rao Qamar Suleman had disclosed that the Shamsi Base is *under the control of United Arab Emirates*,* not in the control of Pakistan Air Force *while briefing a joint in-camera session of Pakistan parliament on 13 May 2011.

So which is that so called American air base in Pakistan that you're talking about?

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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Speculation knows no bounds.



Since the people have lost faith in what the GoP says.. and the Army hasnt said much about the incident other than refuting charges and pointing fingers.
We dont have a clear story apart from the dots that connect 28 flag draped coffins that come from a KNOWN post to both sides and the statement of PA about the attack not being stopped even after a mayday was issued.

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## JonAsad

Some one create anti- nato protest face book page- Lets all join in-


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## BATMAN

Zarvan said:


> Because They Knew Pakistan would not hit back the day we will show them if they will kill Soldier in reply we will make sure 10 of Nato soldiers become History I guarantee you they will never attack again


 


StandForInsaf said:


> I disagree most of your posts but this one *i must agree*  .


 
Well gentlemen here i disagree with you both.

I guess you never read the first post of this thread.

Bottom line is the people who run wars are not confined to borders or nationalities and they have no regard for any life.. be it Western, Asian or Chinese.

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## bdslph

yes you are right Pakistan should make friends with Iran and Russia move more closer 

Russia if they stop supply in Afghanistan with Pakistan will be doing it then NATO and USA will be in a big problem in Afghanistan even though they will get supply it will really be expensive

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## bdslph

it is time for Pakistan to buy and use the S300 and S400 from Russia and also be nice to USa in Afghanistan Shoot down some HElo and drones and ALWAYS say OOOOPPPSSS sorry mistake and it happened accidentally 

 that is why be nice


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## fatman17

November 28, 2011

What's Next?

*NATO vs Pakistan*

by TARIQ ALI

The Nato assault on a Pakistani checkpoint close to the Afghan border which killed 24 soldiers on Saturday must have been deliberate. Nato commanders have long been supplied with maps marking these checkpoints by the Pakistani military. They knew that the target was a military outpost. The explanation that they were fired on first rings false and has been ferociously denied by Islamabad. Previous such attacks were pronounced &#8216;accidental&#8217; and apologies were given and accepted. This time it seems more serious. It has come too soon after other &#8216;breaches of sovereignty&#8217;, in the words of the local press, but Pakistani sovereignty is a fiction. The military high command and the country&#8217;s political leaders willingly surrendered their sovereignty many decades ago. That it is now being violated openly and brutally is the real cause for concern.



In retaliation, Pakistan has halted Nato convoys to Afghanistan (49 per cent of which go through the country) and asked the US to vacate the Shamsi base that they built to launch drones against targets in both Afghanistan and Pakistan with the permission of the country&#8217;s rulers. Islamabad was allowed a legal fig-leaf: in official documents the base was officially leased by the UAE &#8211; whose &#8216;sovereignty&#8217; is even more flexible than Pakistan&#8217;s.



Motives for the attack remain a mystery but its impact is not. It will create further divisions within the military, further weaken the venal Zardari regime, strengthen religious militants and make the US even more hated than it already is in Pakistan.



So why do it? Was it intended as a provocation? Is Obama seriously thinking of unleashing a civil war in an already battered country? Some commentators in Islamabad are arguing this but it&#8217;s unlikely that Nato troops will occupy Pakistan. Such an irrational turn would be difficult to justify in terms of any imperial interests. Perhaps it was simply a tit-for-tat to punish the Pakistani military for dispatching the Haqqani network to bomb the US embassy and Nato HQ in Kabul&#8217;s &#8216;Green Zone&#8217; a few months back.



The Nato attack comes on the heels of another crisis. One of Zardari and his late wife&#8217;s trusted bagmen in Washington, Husain Haqqani, whose links to the US intelligence agencies since the 1970s made him a useful intermediary and whom Zardari appointed as Pakistan&#8217;s ambassador to Washington, has been forced to resign. Haqqani, often referred to as the US ambassador to Pakistan, appears to have been caught red-handed: he allegedly asked Mansoor Ijaz, a multi-millionaire close to the US defense establishment, to carry a message to Admiral Mike Mullen pleading for help against the Pakistani military and offering in return to disband the Haqqani network and the ISI and carry out all US instructions.



Mullen denied that he had received any message. A military underling contradicted him. Mullen changed his story and said a message had been received and ignored. When the ISI discovered this &#8216;act of treachery&#8217;, Haqqani, instead of saying that he was acting under orders from Zardari, denied the entire story. Unfortunately for him, the ISI boss, General Pasha, had met up with Ijaz and been given the Blackberry with the messages and instructions. Haqqani had no option but to resign. Demands for his trial and hanging (the two often go together when the military is involved) are proliferating. Zardari is standing by his man. The military wants his head. And now Nato has entered the fray. This story is not yet over.

TARIQ ALI&#8217;s latest book is The Obama Syndrome: Surrender at Home, War Abroad.

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## Jango

NAjAM Khan said:


> This was a complete setup. The timing is perfect for Bonn Conference. Boycotting it will fullfill the objective of US, we will have no say in future of Afghanistan. Some Military Analysts think that this operation was conducted by Special Ops task Force (which did OBL op as well), they had an air cover this time too.
> 
> Boycotting this conference only to raise our voice and protest against the un-just killing from a so called 'Friendly' isnt a good plan. Implementation is..e.g taking back Shamsi, halting the supply line for months and then decreasing it to the minimum possible level. Imposing ban on arrival of US/NATO containers at Karachi dockyard. And Finally demanding a big price to pay to these shuada(martyrs) and all 72 shuada who have lost their lives in such 'friendly fire' in past couple of years.



Bonn conference should be attended, but NATo supplies blocked, cooperation with NATO stopped, and the inclusion and participation of Pakistan in NATO sessions as an observer be stopped.

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## Jango

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Ask/protest against the civilian government to provide similar 'allowances' to non-military orphans that the military provides to its soldiers.
> 
> Criticizing the institution of the military for properly caring for its soldiers and officers, because the civilian government cannot do the same, is absurd.
> 
> While it is true that the military earns billions of rupees in profit from the businesses it runs (which is largely used to fund these welfare and retirement programs for the troops), the GoP has even larger Public Sector Enterprizes under its control that can offer far more in the way of income, were they run properly - Pakistan Steel, PIA, Pakistan Railways, Oil and Gas, Water and Power etc. etc.
> 
> It is rather pathetic to see Pakistanis critiquing the military for being able to run successful businesses in order to provide proper welfare and retirement benefits to its soldiers, who otherwise don't earn much by even Pakistani standards.



In addition to that you cannot blame , a soldier who sleeps in freezing nights, and voluntarily goes out there, eats practically nothing, except for daal roti for most of the week, and still dies defending you.

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## GURU DUTT

nuclearpak said:


> *Bonn conference* should be *attended*, but *NATo supplies blocked*, *cooperation with NATO stopped*, and the inclusion and participation of Pakistan in NATO sessions as an observer be stopped.



not to hurt any feelings but friend you very well know what will be the end result "yoon to maloom hai jannat ki hakeekat lekin ?dil behlane ko galigb khayal achha hai" Thanks .


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## J.Tariq

hatf IX said:


> is it airbase or army base
> 
> i think the nearest base to terbella is kamara airbase and if Americans are there than . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?????????????????
> every one know better . . . . .


 It is army base and it is huge. let me explain of your driving car at 60 km or round about you will required at least 20 to 25 minutes to leave it behind i am just talking about from out side. does any one care


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## Devil Soul

*'Shamsi base is nice, but not crucial for drone attacks'*
By AFP
Published: November 29, 2011
US drone raids targeting militants in Pakistan will not be jeopardized if Islamabad does indeed expel Americans from a key air base, officials and a former intelligence officer said Monday.
Angered over a Nato air attack on Saturday that left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead, Islamabad has shut off supply routes to US-led forces in Afghanistan and ordered Americans out of the Shamsi air base used by the CIAs fleet of unmanned aircraft.
Even if the Pakistanis make good on their threat over Shamsi, US officials and analysts say the move would be largely symbolic as Washington could fly Predator and Reaper drones out of air fields in neighboring Afghanistan.
Shamsi is a nice thing to have, but its not critical to drone operations. They can be carried out from bases in Afghanistan, said Bruce Reidel, a former CIA officer and fellow at the Brookings Institution think tank.
The remote Shamsi air base in the countrys southwest is particularly useful for flights hampered by poor weather conditions, he said.
A senior US official said the facility was not a make-or-break link for the robotic planes that have proved an effective weapon against Al-Qaeda and Taliban extremists.
The real issue isnt Shamsi, its air space, the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told AFP.
So far there was no sign that Islamabad would bar the US aircraft from flying over Pakistan, and its announcement on Shamsi appeared designed to placate a domestic audience in Pakistan, officials said.
The Shamsi base reflects the contradictions in the uneasy partnership between the two countries, with Islamabad reluctant to publicly acknowledge its tacit cooperation with US counter-terror efforts, which many Pakistanis see as a violation of their countrys sovereignty.
You have to have jet fuel delivered to Shamsi, Reidel said. The Pakistani public has the impression of a base that operates extraterritorially but in reality it operates because the Pakistani army helps it to operate.
Shortly after Saturdays air attack on the border by Nato forces, Pakistans cabinet ministers and military chiefs demanded the United States clear out of the Shamsi air field within 15 days.
Pakistan previously called for the Americans to leave the air base in June but later backed off.
Although President Barack Obamas administration was working on a response to a number of demands from Pakistan, there were no plans to pull back on the drone raids, which intelligence officials have credited with weakening the Al-Qaeda network.
Pakistan remains a critical counter-terrorism partner, and we do not anticipate significant changes in that relationship, another US official said.
A more serious problem for the United States and Nato allies is Pakistans decision to close its border to convoys ferrying fuel and supplies to coalition troops in landlocked Afghanistan.
Nearly half of all cargo bound for Nato-led forces runs through Pakistan. Roughly 140,000 foreign troops, including about 97,000 Americans, rely on supplies from outside Afghanistan for the ten-year-old war effort.
Pakistan has shut off the border over previous incidents, partly to allay popular outrage, and US officials said they expected the latest closure would be temporary.
The Pentagon said top government officials and commanders are working with the Pakistanis on a way ahead following the air strikes and the White House underscored the importance of the relationship with Islamabad.
Despite the deep distrust between the United States and Pakistan, neither country can afford a complete rupture in relations, officials said.
By permanently cutting off supplies to Nato forces, Pakistan would not just be taking on the United States but Nato and the United Nations, Reidel said. The Pakistanis dont want to do that.


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## VelocuR

*Pakistan draws UN Security Council&#8217;s attention to NATO raid*


UNITED NATIONS: Pakistan has brought to the attention of the UN Security Council the statement issued by the Defence Committee of the Cabinet (DCC) condemning the November 26 Nato strike on Mohmand checkposts. 

The DCC statement has been circulated to members of the Security Council by its president and is being issued as an official document of the 15-member council.

Pakistan&#8217;s UN Ambassador Abdullah Hussain Haroon, who had arrived in New York on Sunday night after having consultations with the government, addressed a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon. He apprised the Secretary General of the situation, saying that in the early hours of Saturday, the Nato/Isaf aircraft attack on Pakistan&#8217;s border posts resulted in the death of 24 officers and soldiers of Pakistan Army and injured another 13 personnel.

The DCC, in its emergency meeting chaired by Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani on Saturday evening, had condemned the attack in the strongest terms and declared it unacceptable. It reiterated the resolve of the Pakistani people and Armed Forces to safeguard the country&#8217;s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity at all costs.

In accordance with the resolution of the Joint Session of the Parliament of May 14, the DCC announced the closure with immediate effect of the Nato/Isaf logistics supply lines and decided to ask the United States to vacate the Shamsi Airbase within 15 days.

The DCC statement had also said that the government will revisit and undertake a complete review of all programmes, activities and cooperative arrangements with US/Nato/Isaf, including diplomatic, political, military and intelligence.

-----------------------------



> A more serious problem for the United States and Nato allies is Pakistan&#8217;s decision to close its border to convoys ferrying fuel and supplies to coalition troops in landlocked Afghanistan.
> 
> Nearly half of all cargo bound for Nato-led forces runs through Pakistan. Roughly 140,000 foreign troops, including about 97,000 Americans, rely on supplies from outside Afghanistan for the ten-year-old war effort. Source





> About Shamsi Airbase- It&#8217;s a serious blow in the sense that the Pakistani government felt that they needed to deny us the use of a base that we&#8217;ve been using for many years. &#8220;And so it&#8217;s serious in that regard. It&#8217;s not debilitating militarily.&#8221;
> 
> Dempsey said ties at senior levels between the two nations&#8217; militaries were still strong at the &#8220;person-to-person&#8221; level.
> 
> He said he had known Pakistan&#8217;s army chief General Ashfaq Kayani since the two studied together at the US Army Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas in the late 1980s. Source

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## Jango

According to news reports today, trucks for NATO have been ordered to go outside of Khyber Agency.


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## Jango

GURU DUTT said:


> not to hurt any feelings but friend you very well know what will be the end result "yoon to maloom hai jannat ki hakeekat lekin ?dil behlane ko galigb khayal achha hai" Thanks .



Yeah, so what will happen in your opinion?


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## Omar1984

*NATO attack was launched to rescue TTP militants*

Islamabad&#8212;Military observers now believe that the NATO aircraft which attacked and killed 24 Pakistani soldiers were in fact sent to rescue the TTP terrorists who had been encircled by Pakistani forces near Silalah check posts.

The defence observers who are closely monitoring the situation told Pakistan Observer that reports suggest that Pakistani soldiers had encircled a group of TTP terrorists who had been active in the most difficult area where Pakistani armed forces had gained ground after paying much sacrifice. 

According to a report a group of TTP terrorists who had penetrated from Afghanistan had been surrounded by Pakistani armed forces in the region on November 25 and were about to be eliminated from within next few hours. But all of a sudden NATO aircraft reached and mercilessly attacked Pakistan army&#8217;s check posts. Pakistani officials in the region immediately sent messages to their ISAF counterparts in Afghanistan notifying the attack by aircraft but no action was taken and the attack continued for more than thirty minutes destroying all two Pakistan check posts in the area.

It is no secret that TTP terrorists leaders, Waliur Rehman and Mullah Fazlullah are residing across the border in Kunar and Nuristan and had recently vowed to return to Pakistan to carry out more terrorist attacks inside Pakistan.

Afghan monitors also say that anti-Pakistan Afghan commanders have been deployed along Pak-Afghan borders across Mohamand Agency where Pakistani armed forces had launched two operations against terrorists causing considerable casualties to the militants.

Afghan monitors believe that at least two Afghan military officials who have direct or indirect links had been posted in the region. These two Afghan military officials Brig. Gen. Aminullah Amarkhel and Colonel Numan Hatifi (of 201st Silab Corps) are known for their anti-Pakistan sentiments and links with elements aiming to malign Pakistan.


NATO attack was launched to rescue TTP militants

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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan strike probe report due next month: US*
By AFP
Published: November 29, 2011
A US-led investigation into a Nato air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops near the Afghan border will report its initial findings by December 23, officials said Tuesday.
The chief of US Central Command, which oversees US forces in Afghanistan and the Middle East, appointed Brigadier General Stephen Clark, a one-star air force general, to lead the investigation, the US military announced.
The probe is expected to provide an initial report by December 23, it added.
Pakistan has reacted to Saturday&#8217;s air strike with fury, cutting off crucial supply routes to Nato forces in Afghanistan, and ordering US personnel to vacate an air base reportedly used by CIA drones and a review of US relations.
Clark will lead the investigation with input from Nato and its International Security Assistance Force, which has 130,000 troops in Afghanistan in addition to an extra 10,000 American forces operating under separate command.
The Afghan and Pakistani governments are also being invited to take part, despite Pakistan&#8217;s furious response to the attack.
&#8220;It is USCENTCOM&#8217;s intent to include these government representatives to the maximum extent possible to determine what happened and preclude it from happening again,&#8221; the US military said.
&#8220;The investigation team will focus their efforts on the facts of the incident and any matters that facilitate a better understanding of the circumstances surrounding the deaths and injuries of the Pakistani forces.&#8221;
ISAF sent an initial assessment team to the border over the weekend.
A Western military official in Kabul, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the probe team had yet to arrive in Afghanistan but insisted its findings would be reported &#8220;way quicker&#8221; than initially expected.
The source said it was not unusual for US Central Command to carry out this kind of investigation rather than ISAF, which usually undertakes probes into incidents such as civilian casualties.
ISAF refused to comment when asked whether US Special Forces had been operating in the area when the air strikes were called in.
Islamabad insists that the air strikes were unprovoked, but Afghan and Western officials have reportedly accused Pakistani forces of firing first.
Before Saturday&#8217;s attack, US military officers had been working to shore up cooperation with Pakistani forces along the Afghan border.
Communication between units on the border virtually broke down in the aftermath of a US raid in May that killed al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden at his Pakistani compound, sending US-Pakistani relations into free fall.


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## Devil Soul

*US suspects Nato forces lured into deadly raid*
AP (1 hour ago) Today

This file photo taken on June 1, 2011 shows Pakistani soldiers standing guard on a mountain ridge in the Mohmand tribal region. &#8212; Photo by AFP

WASHINGTON: Nato forces may have been lured into attacking friendly Pakistani border posts in a calculated manoeuvre by the Taliban, according to preliminary US military reports on the deadliest friendly fire incident with Pakistan since the war began.

The Nato air strike killed 24 Pakistani soldiers over the weekend in an apparent case of mistaken identity, The Associated Press has learned.

A joint US-Afghan patrol was attacked by the Taliban early Saturday morning, and while pursuing the enemy in the poorly marked border area, seem to have mistaken one of the Pakistan troop outposts for a militant encampment and called in a Nato gunship and attack helicopters to open fire.

US officials say the account suggests the Taliban may have deliberately tried to provoke a cross-border firefight that would set back fragile partnerships between the US and Nato forces and Pakistani soldiers at the ill-defined border.

Officials described the records on condition of anonymity to discuss classified matters.

The incident sent the perpetually difficult US-Pakistan relationship into a tailspin.

Gen. James Mattis, head of U.S. Central Command, announced Monday that he has appointed Brig. Gen. Stephen Clark, an Air Force special operations officer, to lead the probe of the incident, and said he must include input from the Nato-led forces in Afghanistan, as well as representatives from the Afghan and Pakistani governments.

According to the US military records described to the AP, the joint US and Afghan patrol requested backup after being hit by mortar and small arms fire by Taliban militants.

Officials described the records on condition of anonymity to discuss classified matters.

Before responding, the joint US-Afghan patrol first checked with the Pakistani army, which reported it had no troops in the area, the military account said.

Some two hours later, still hunting the insurgents who had by now apparently fled in the direction of Pakistani border posts, the US commander spotted what he thought was a militant encampment, with heavy weapons mounted on tripods.

Then the joint patrol called for the air strikes at around 2:21 a.m. Pakistani time, not realising the encampment was the Pakistani border post.

Records show the aerial response included Apache attack helicopters and an AC-130 gunship.

US officials are working on the assumption the Taliban chose the location for the first attack, to create just such confusion, and draw US and Pakistani forces into firing on each other, according to US officials briefed on the operation.

At the White House, spokesman Jay Carney said President Barack Obama considers the Pakistani deaths a tragedy, and said the administration is determined to investigate.

The Pentagon released a four-page memo from Centcom commander Mattis to the general he named to lead the inquiry. Mattis directed Clark to determine what happened, which units were involved, which ones did or did not cross the border, how the operation was coordinated, and what caused the deaths and injuries.

Mattis asked Clark to also make any recommendations about how border operations could be improved, and he said the final report should be submitted by December 23.

The details emerged as aftershocks of the Nato airstrike were reverberating across the US military and diplomatic landscape Monday, threatening communications and supply lines for the Afghan war and the success of an upcoming international conference.

While US officials expressed regret and sympathy over the cross-border incident, they are not acknowledging blame, amid conflicting reports about who fired first.

The airstrike was politically explosive as well as deadly, coming as US officials were working to repair relations with the Pakistanis after a series of major setbacks, including the US commando raid into Pakistan in May that killed Osama bin Laden.

In recent weeks, military leaders had begun expressing some optimism that US-Pakistan military cooperation along the border was beginning to improve.

US Army Maj. Gen. Daniel Allyn told Pentagon reporters just last Tuesday that incidents of firing from Pakistan territory had tapered off somewhat in recent weeks.

Speaking to reporters Monday, Pentagon press secretary George Little stressed the need for a strong military relationship with Pakistan.

&#8221;The Pakistani government knows our position on that, and that is we do regret the loss of life in this incident, and we are investigating it,&#8221; said Little.

The military fallout began almost immediately.

Pakistan has blocked vital supply routes for US-led troops in Afghanistan and demanded that Washington vacate a base used by American drones. Pakistan ordered CIA employees to mothball their drone operation at Pakistan&#8217;s Shamsi air base within two weeks, a senior Pakistani official said.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

On the diplomatic front, the Obama administration said Pakistan may pull out of an international conference on Afghanistan next week as a result of the incident.

The State Department also issued a new warning for US citizens in Pakistan. It said that all US government personnel working in Pakistan were being recalled to Islamabad and warned Americans to be on guard for possible retaliation. US citizens in Pakistan are being told to travel in pairs, avoid crowds and demonstrations and keep a low profile.

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## Omar1984

*NATO attack was launched to rescue TTP militants*

Islamabad&#8212;Military observers now believe that the NATO aircraft which attacked and killed 24 Pakistani soldiers were in fact sent to rescue the TTP terrorists who had been encircled by Pakistani forces near Silalah check posts.

The defence observers who are closely monitoring the situation told Pakistan Observer that reports suggest that Pakistani soldiers had encircled a group of TTP terrorists who had been active in the most difficult area where Pakistani armed forces had gained ground after paying much sacrifice. 

According to a report a group of TTP terrorists who had penetrated from Afghanistan had been surrounded by Pakistani armed forces in the region on November 25 and were about to be eliminated from within next few hours. But all of a sudden NATO aircraft reached and mercilessly attacked Pakistan army&#8217;s check posts. Pakistani officials in the region immediately sent messages to their ISAF counterparts in Afghanistan notifying the attack by aircraft but no action was taken and the attack continued for more than thirty minutes destroying all two Pakistan check posts in the area.

It is no secret that TTP terrorists leaders, Waliur Rehman and Mullah Fazlullah are residing across the border in Kunar and Nuristan and had recently vowed to return to Pakistan to carry out more terrorist attacks inside Pakistan.

Afghan monitors also say that anti-Pakistan Afghan commanders have been deployed along Pak-Afghan borders across Mohamand Agency where Pakistani armed forces had launched two operations against terrorists causing considerable casualties to the militants.

Afghan monitors believe that at least two Afghan military officials who have direct or indirect links had been posted in the region. These two Afghan military officials Brig. Gen. Aminullah Amarkhel and Colonel Numan Hatifi (of 201st Silab Corps) are known for their anti-Pakistan sentiments and links with elements aiming to malign Pakistan.


NATO attack was launched to rescue TTP militants

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## Black Widow

> Pakistan may not want war but war is being imposed on Pakistan. While the task of diplomacy is to delay inevitable wars, the Pakistani leadership should sit down for two months to chalk out a long term strategy with national consensus and only then talk to the Americans. We can defend our homeland effectively provided we prepare day and night, quietly, fearlessly and with determination for the inevitable World War III.
> 
> The writer is vice-chancellor of Punjab University.



This is personal Big mouthing of Honorable Vice chancellor. As one of the fellow member said, To create a conspiracy theory, first reach to conclusion, then start collecting facts.... 

I am equally raged on this attack, but let us wait for inquiry before making any speculation.


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## Bull

Nothing except time can heal this 'insult' Pakistan suffered. Not at all a enviable position to be in. 

ISAF/US leaving Afghanistan is mooted by many as solution to the problems that Pakistan faces, which is not correct. Dilution of Afghani importance would lead to militants/extremists diverting there attention to Xinjiang/Kashmir so the problem simply moves from west to east, and will continue to exist.

I would rather say sacrifices due to US presence in Afghan should be accepted, because an angry China due to Xinjiang would be simply be the END.


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## Al Bhatti

Will any top head - official - (military or civilian or both) be assassinated these days by a person who does not see the actions so far taken by Pakistan against USA/NATO as enough? Just a question.


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## fatman17

Bull said:


> Nothing except time can heal this 'insult' Pakistan suffered. Not at all a enviable position to be in.
> 
> ISAF/US leaving Afghanistan is mooted by many as solution to the problems that Pakistan faces, which is not correct. Dilution of Afghani importance would lead to militants/extremists diverting there attention to Xinjiang/Kashmir so the problem simply moves from west to east, and will continue to exist.
> 
> I would rather say sacrifices due to US presence in Afghan should be accepted, because an angry China due to Xinjiang would be simply be the END.



u r thinking India only


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## karan.1970

Pakistan strike probe report due next month: US | World | DAWN.COM

KABUL: A US-led investigation into a Nato air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops near the Afghan border will report its initial findings by December 23, officials said Tuesday.

The chief of US Central Command, which oversees US forces in Afghanistan and the Middle East, appointed Brigadier General Stephen Clark, a one-star air force general, to lead the investigation, the US military announced.

*The probe is expected to provide an initial report by December 23, it added.
*
Pakistan has reacted to Saturday&#8217;s air strike with fury, cutting off crucial supply routes to Nato forces in Afghanistan, and ordering US personnel to vacate an air base reportedly used by CIA drones and a review of US relations.

Clark will lead the investigation with input from Nato and its International Security Assistance Force.

*The Afghan and Pakistani governments are also being invited to take part, despite Pakistan&#8217;s furious response to the attack.
*
&#8220;It is USCENTCOM&#8217;s intent to include these government representatives to the maximum extent possible to determine what happened and preclude it from happening again,&#8221; the US military said.

&#8220;The investigation team will focus their efforts on the facts of the incident and any matters that facilitate a better understanding of the circumstances surrounding the deaths and injuries of the Pakistani forces.&#8221; ISAF sent an initial assessment team to the border over the weekend.

A Western military official in Kabul, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the probe team had yet to arrive in Afghanistan but insisted its findings would be reported &#8220;way quicker&#8221; than initially expected.

The source said it was not unusual for US Central Command to carry out this kind of investigation rather than ISAF, which usually undertakes probes into incidents such as civilian casualties.

*ISAF refused to comment when asked whether US Special Forces had been operating in the area when the air strikes were called in.*

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## fatman17

*Murky border war won&#8217;t rupture Pakistan-US alliance: analysts*


ISLAMABAD: The deaths of 24 Pakistani troops spotlights the explosive 10-year war on the Afghan border, but is unlikely to rupture the unhappy marriage of convenience between Islamabad and Washington, analysts say.

Forced into partnership by 9/11 and the war on al Qaeda, the two governments are totally reliant on one another, yet lurch from crisis to crisis given a prevailing climate of distrust.

It is typical that just as relations began to recover from the covert American raid that killed Osama bin Laden, the NATO attack has put the alliance back on the brink.

Islamabad sealed the Afghan border to NATO supplies again, gave Americans notice to leave a shadowy air base believed to be used in the CIA drone war, and ordered a review of the alliance.

&#8220;I think we&#8217;re one step short of a strategic crisis,&#8221; retired US general turned NBC News military analyst Barry McCaffrey told the TV network.

Estimating that up to 50 percent of supplies for Afghanistan are routed through Pakistan he said, &#8220;We&#8217;ve got to talk to them, we&#8217;ve got to pay them, we&#8217;ve got to apologise for this strike. We have no option, literally.&#8221;

Afghan and US officers routinely complain that Pakistani soldiers do nothing to prevent Taliban opening fire from Pakistani soil or infiltrating the border - including in Mohmand, the district where the soldiers were killed.

&#8220;Insurgents repeatedly use the border area in their favour to hide, to operate across it and to fire on both sides,&#8221; said Brigadier General Carsten Jacobson, spokesman for NATO&#8217;s International Security Assistance Force. US and Afghan commandos have reportedly strayed across the border in hot pursuit of Taliban.

Although the working relationship between Pakistan&#8217;s army chief Ashfaq Kayani and American top brass is considered to be relatively good, Pakistani analysts say there is a lack of coordination at operational levels.

Resolving the latest crisis will likely hinge on the outcome of a NATO investigation and to what extent Washington is willing to pacify a government in Islamabad answerable to a largely anti-American electorate.

&#8220;Pakistan will surely want to know the exact motive of the attack. Was it the result of intelligence failure or a mistake by a group or an individual?&#8221; retired lieutenant general Talat Masood told AFP.

So will there be any lasting damage? To what extent can Pakistan force any change in its terms of engagement with the United States?

&#8220;Long-term severing of ties is out of the question. Short-term retaliation is underway,&#8221; said author Imtiaz Gul.

John Bolton, a former US ambassador to the United Nations, laid bare the dilemma for Washington in handling nuclear-armed Pakistan, which has received up to $20 billion in US aid over the last 10 years.

*&#8220;As long as that country has nuclear weapons that could fall into the hands of radicals and be a threat worldwide, they have incredible leverage,&#8221; he said*. afp


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## Raja.Pakistani

Pakistan and US wage a war of words over Afghan border post deaths. Islamabad and Washington trade claim and counter-claim over deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers in Nato air strike on border 

Nato operations in Afghanistan have been thrown into disarray following Saturday's deaths. The US and allied commanders say they are investigating how the tragedy occurred. Both sides are making claims and counter-claims.


Claim 1:*US and Afghan commandos say they came under fire from inside Pakistan. The resulting air strikes killed 24 soldiers, and injured 13. Nato says they were a regrettable mistake.

Counter-claim:*Pakistan says the attack was unprovoked. The air and helicopter strikes were a catastrophic blunder, both military and diplomatic

.Claim 2:*Nato says the incident happened when a mainly Afghan force was conducting an operation in the southern Kunar province. Someone fired on them, it says.

Counter-claim:*The Pakistani military says this is rubbish. The assault was premeditated, "irresponsible" and deliberate against two mountain outposts known to Nato and US forces. The soldiers were 300 metres inside Pakistan, in the Mohmand tribal areas, recently cleared of militants.

Claim 3: Nato regrets the deaths and says they were "tragic and unintended".

Counter-claim:*Pakistan says the attacks went on for almost two hours and continued even after Pakistani commanders asked coalition forces to stop. A spokesman said that if the Afghan-US patrol came under attack, where are its casualties?

Claim 4:*Underlying US policy is the assumption that Pakistani forces are complicit in allowing Taliban militants to use Pakistan's tribal areas as a base.

Counter-claim:*Pakistan's soldiers are doing an impossible job. They patrol a huge, porous, mountainous border, and frequently come under attack from Taliban sympathisers and from trigger-happy Nato-Afghan forces

Claim 5:*US officials believe elements inside Pakistan's army and intelligence services give clandestine support to a resurgent Taliban. This support &#8211; in the form of weapons, know-how, safe havens &#8211; facilitates lethal attacks inside Afghanistan on US troops, and perpetuates a war that has already dragged on for over a decade.

Counter-claim:*Pakistan is fighting its own desperate internal battle against Islamist extremism. The US, meanwhile, isn't helping. It flagrantly violates Pakistan's sovereignty. The latest deadly air-strikes are simply the most recent example; the raid which killed Osama bin Laden in May the most egregious.

Pakistan should realize that latoon k bhoot bathoon se nhi mantey before its too late.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan should fire a missile on a NATO Base and than call it a mistake and easily say SORRY

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## Mav3rick

Bull said:


> Nothing except time can heal this 'insult' Pakistan suffered. Not at all a enviable position to be in.
> 
> ISAF/US leaving Afghanistan is mooted by many as solution to the problems that Pakistan faces, which is not correct. Dilution of Afghani importance would lead to militants/extremists diverting there attention to Xinjiang/Kashmir so the problem simply moves from west to east, and will continue to exist.
> 
> I would rather say sacrifices due to US presence in Afghan should be accepted, because an angry China due to Xinjiang would be simply be the END.


 
Pakistan does not support terrorism, be it against any country including China and will do whatever she can to prevent attacks planned within Pakistan or by Pakistani elements. Infact Pakistan does not even support any terrorism in India and a resolution to Kashmir conflict would ensure elimination of suspicion on each other.

Consider how easy it would be for, lets say a third party, to pay elements, non-Agency & non-Government, on either side of the border to cause havoc and to repeat Bombay type terrorist activities.....how much restraint would each country be able to practice? On the other hand if there is mutual trust and respect, both countries would reach the conclusion that external forces are to be blamed.


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## pakistanitarzan

Everybody listen. Pakistan now has some leverage. Let's assume that Pakistan permanently blocks Nato supplies and Nato uses 
other routes for the rest of it's occupation. Let's also assume that Pakistan gets out of this WOT and becomes neutral.

What if a similar incidence happens again and Pak Fauj / Check Post or any base is attacked again within Pakistan and lets say 
50 members of Pak Fauj die, what leverage would Pakistan have then? Hmm Let me guess, None!


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## Mav3rick

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should fire a missile on a NATO Base and than call it a mistake and easily say SORRY


 
I am sure many would even be willing to take individual responsibility for that and face charges in US/NATO countries.


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## Al Bhatti

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should fire a missile on a NATO Base and than call it a mistake and easily say SORRY



No matter what we write and what the public does, the GOP and army will do what they think is *$*uitable. The public will cool down after a few days and business will be as usual between the two governments.

Since decades Pakistan is playing this Tom and Jerry with US nothing happened in favor of Pakistan, and every time we say next time and next time.

Other countries that are playing their part in the War on Terror have developed their military personal experience + hardware capabilities. But overall Pakistan has gained very little, almost nothing but it has surely lost almost everything.


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## Mav3rick

pakistanitarzan said:


> Everybody listen. Pakistan now has some leverage. Let's assume that Pakistan permanently blocks Nato supplies and Nato uses
> other routes for the rest of it's occupation. Let's also assume that Pakistan gets out of this WOT and becomes neutral.
> 
> What if a similar incidence happens again and Pak Fauj / Check Post or any base is attacked again within Pakistan and lets say
> 50 members of Pak Fauj die, what leverage would Pakistan have then? Hmm Let me guess, None!


 
Or....Pakistan openly declare that any violation of its airspace would be taken up at UN and that all posts are equipped with MANPADS with clear instructions to engage if attacked. Our indigenous Anza's can easily take down any US helicopter. Any air strike from a bomber would be considered an act of war and the air base, where it takes off from, would be taken out.


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## pakistanitarzan

Mav3rick said:


> Or....Pakistan openly declare that any violation of its airspace would be taken up at UN and that all posts are equipped with MANPADS with clear instructions to engage if attacked. Our indigenous Anza's can easily take down any US helicopter. Any air strike from a bomber would be considered an act of war and the air base, where it takes off from, would be taken out.



Well that could be a second step but I don't think the supply routes would be blocked for ever and i also don't think that Pakistan is getting out of this WOT anytime soon. Unfortunately, Pakistan has more to suffer


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## Al Bhatti

Mav3rick said:


> Or....Pakistan openly declare that any violation of its airspace would be taken up at UN and that all posts are equipped with MANPADS with clear instructions to engage if attacked. Our indigenous Anza's can easily take down any US helicopter. Any air strike from a bomber would be considered an act of war and *the air base, where it takes off from, would be taken out.*



If we cannot have the planes/flying machines visible on radar as there are no radars in that area how will we know from where it took off.


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## PakShaheen79

Pakistani would always have levrage as far as the threater of war is confined within Afghan borders. That country cannot be stablized with keep Pakistan out of loop.



pakistanitarzan said:


> Everybody listen. Pakistan now has some leverage. Let's assume that Pakistan permanently blocks Nato supplies and Nato uses
> other routes for the rest of it's occupation. Let's also assume that Pakistan gets out of this WOT and becomes neutral.
> 
> What if a similar incidence happens again and Pak Fauj / Check Post or any base is attacked again within Pakistan and lets say
> 50 members of Pak Fauj die, what leverage would Pakistan have then? Hmm Let me guess, None!


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## Zarvan

Al Bhatti said:


> No matter what we write and what the public does, the GOP and army will do what they think is *$*uitable. The public will cool down after a few days and business will be as usual between the two governments.
> 
> Since decades Pakistan is playing this Tom and Jerry with US nothing happened in favor of Pakistan, and every time we say next time and next time.
> 
> Other countries that are playing their part in the War on Terror have developed their military personal experience + hardware capabilities. But overall Pakistan has gained very little, almost nothing but it has surely lost almost everything.


Sir this cooling down has almost reached its limit and it can now turn into anger which will be leashed on Army first and than those who attack us


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## pakistanitarzan

Perfect song to relate the desperateness of Pakistani Awam to get out of this WOT.

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## PakShaheen79

GURU DUTT said:


> my freind we indians dont consider pakistanies as owr enemies , yes we do get aggittated when we see in news your love towards anty-indian tanzeems but nothing like mortal enemy , in pakistan its a fact & most of your tv anchors have confiremed about the hate preached against hindu indians in schools but* in india we preach hindu - muslim ekta(unity)&all humans are born equal+ relegion is your personal choice & thats the main reason that a ordinarry indian dosent care much about relegion . *
> 
> Now about millitarry buildup , just keep yourself for a movement in our place that how would you orepare yourself against a nation which since its very inception created unnessecary trouble 1947 afreedi attacking kashmeer,1965 operation gibralter,1999Kargill attempt.
> now as in some TV show as marvee simrad said about creation of hindu demon by your elite(though sikhs were mainly responsible but for your love of misadvanture)
> 
> MERE DOST PEHLE APNE HUKUMRAANOO KA RAVIYAA DEKHO BAAD ME HUM INDIANS KO KOASNAA



Oh, Yes ... and here is a divine demostration of peace preaching in India regarding Pakistan

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## Super Falcon

pata nahe probleum kia hai is forum ka moderators ka sath koi thread kholo tu band kar deta han as being pakistani we should ask our armed forces what they did in last 10 years nothing US operatives are walking in pakistani streets killing in our own country our people govt and army did nothing drones did nothing our bases in US control we cannot do anything abotabad airforce and army was sleeping infact 2 meters from army base this was happening and now this and still airforce is sleeping i think it is for sure we should now that blood of pakistani people are nothing infront of armed forces whos duty is to save any type of attack on pakistani soil

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## Mav3rick

Al Bhatti said:


> If we cannot have the planes/flying machines visible on radar as there are no radars in that area how will we know from where it took off.


 
Take out the closest Base and claim that's where the A/C took off from.


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## Super Falcon

what was airforce and army doing for long three hours when our base got attacked for long three hours i think if we have war with india we will going to be parish in few minutes if our armed forces keep sleeping like they did last time remember with this indian armed forces more likely next time will go for surgical strikes in pakistan becoz when they see our airforce is like donkey doing nothing than not only indian but vietnam airforce will think of attacking us too

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## Al Bhatti

Mav3rick said:


> Take out the closest Base and claim that's where the A/C took off from.



In that case you have many bases inside the territory of Pakistan under US control, can Pakistani army attack those bases. Also the whole of Afghanistan is a base will the army get in there?


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## Mav3rick

PakShaheen79 said:


> Oh, Yes ... and here is a divine demostration of peace preaching in India regarding Pakistan



Typical Indian brainwashed child. I am sure we have similar brainwashed Pakistani's here but the ratio has to be in favour of India as hate there is a lot more then here. And ofcourse the hate here is justified as India has executed hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri's but we haven't done anything to the Indians so hate there is not really justified.


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## mohsinkid

The biggest beneficiary of the attack on pakistan by USA will be hindustan ...So that it can cross and capture desired lands.
I wish pakistan tested the ICBM taimur .



P.S
ALL YOU CAN SEE AT MOST INDIAN NEWS WEBSITE 
news #1 : pakistan 
news #2 :pakistan 
news# 3: pakistan
AND

buunch of comments from indian whiners


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## Mav3rick

Al Bhatti said:


> In that case you have many bases inside the territory of Pakistan under US control, can Pakistani army attack those bases. Also the whole of Afghanistan is a base will the army get in there?


 
You are so innocent my friend. Pakistan Army does not need to go in to Afghanistan to fight with anybody, they can simply arm the Mujahideen with Anti-Armour and MANPAD systems and the US/NATO military might would crumble faster then the Soviets did!


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## GURU DUTT

PakShaheen79 said:


> Oh, Yes ... and here is a divine demostration of peace preaching in India regarding Pakistan



Man who the hell is she & whats her backing in India & dont you have idiots like zaid hameed ???? think practically who rules india & you must be having some indian connectios just inquire them about these jockers & how they are rewarded when they do something silly eg pink chaddee campain against shree ram sene for opposing valentiens day & women libaration in india just google it thanks .


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## Mav3rick

mohsinkid said:


> The biggest beneficiary of the attack on pakistan by USA will be hindustan ...So that it can cross and capture desired lands.
> I wish pakistan tested the ICBM taimur .
> 
> 
> 
> P.S
> ALL YOU CAN SEE AT MOST INDIAN NEWS WEBSITE
> news #1 : pakistan
> news #2 :pakistan
> news# 3: pakistan
> AND
> 
> buunch of comments from indian whiners


 
There is just 1 little problem in all this game of land/resource grabbing by India or the US.....180 million strong population of which 65-70% is under 40!


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## Emmie

Al Bhatti said:


> *In that case you have many bases inside the territory of Pakistan under US control, can Pakistani army attack those bases.* Also the whole of Afghanistan is a base will the army get in there?



Typically a CHORAHA kind of argument... PAF bases under US control sounds weird to me, I can't say anything about the presence of Americans on those bases but for sure Pakistan is fully controlling those bases except Shamsi that we gave to UAE

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## fatman17

SF in the 80's we had a mil-govt and it had given 'green-signal' to armed forces to 'retaliate' if anyone violates our border/airspace and PAF did exactly that - NOW we have a civilian govt. which has not given such orders to the armed forces to do like-wise esp. on the western border - on the eastern border the standing orders are different - we should ask why?


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## armyoptimist

I think Pakistan Army must to take some more serious steps.


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## Awesome

fatman17 said:


> SF in the 80's we had a mil-govt and it had given 'green-signal' to armed forces to 'retaliate' if anyone violates our border/airspace and PAF did exactly that - NOW we have a civilian govt. which has not given such orders to the armed forces to do like-wise esp. on the western border - on the eastern border the standing orders are different - we should ask why?



Defending Pakistan are standing orders. If the civilian government has ordered them not to defend Pakistan, then the Military should reveal that to take the blame off of them.

The reality is, the military leadership is eating off of the US aid as well and all of this is a big song and dance to somehow placate the masses and eat the halwa whenever they get the chance to.

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

Kayani's latest drama is to get "New rules of engagement" signed off. Why? Who is asking him to do that? The country wants him to fire back and defend, not sign papers which mean squat.

This inaction spells out to the nation that Kayani bhi bika hua hai, and mulk ghadaar hai Zardari ki tarhan.

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## MilSpec

Durrand line outposts can carry man portable SAM's, next time coalition forces might have to be carefull as they might come under fire for self defence from pak outposts. It was an accident which will have temporary backlash, nd then everything will return back to normal. Have adequate detterence, no one will cross the border. Extinguish taliban fighters, there will be no hot pursuit!


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## T90TankGuy

you mean to tell me that NATO was allowed to roam free over your territory? i think not mate.


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## Devil Soul

NATO attack: Pakistan to boycott Bonn Conference on Afghanistan &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## iPhone

GURU DUTT said:


> BHai zakham hamne bhee khaye hain aur tumne bhi & dard to jaate jaate hi jayega uspe marham lagana ztaada zaroori hai use nasoor banana nahee!!hope some day we can co exist in peace like france-germany thanks,i rest my case Thanks Again .


You are right. I have nothing against India or its people. I already stated I stand for peace and friendly relations with India. I only have a problem every time I hear that ppl in Pakistan hate India because they are brainwashed, when I know hate coming from India is twice as much if not more.

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## T90TankGuy

armyoptimist said:


> I think Pakistan Army must to take some more serious steps.



and what should those be?


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## Sugarcane

iPhone said:


> I'm not kosing anyone, as you can have whatever feelings about Pakistan as you want.
> 
> Your post is wrong on so many levels that if go point by point ill be completely off topic and invite mod action.
> 
> If you guys arent taught hate for Pakistan then what is this we see on this forum from Indian members? And this is nothing as its a Pakistan forum, go to youtube comment section and see for yourself the true Indian feelings for Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistanis are been the most welcoming of Indians on any forum, even in Pakistan. Ask anybody. And I joined one Indian site and my entire family was degraded. And you're saying Indians don't consider us mortal enemies.
> 
> Your media? Is the worst of the kind about Pakistan. And your anti Pak movies.
> 
> Pakistanis are very self critical people. We always point out to our mistakes, socially, politically and whatnot. So don't make up this non sense that we are delusionel about you. Don't paint a rosy picture of youself where none exists.
> 
> But despite all this a vast, vast majority of Pakistan, myself included, stands for peace and friendly relations with india.



I agree with you except the highlighted part which is seriously lacking in our nation. I think at the moment we should concentrate to put our country back on track, lot of hardwork is required to groom our nation to the level where we would become self critical, we should put our energies in that. Bhartiis are no problem we can deal with them anytime.


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## patna_ke_presley

It seems US is well prepared for the worst and Russians are also intelligent it seems, they are only protesting outside but internally negotiating with US over increased worth of NDN.

Afghanistan: NDN Finding Reverse Gear | EurasiaNet.org

Main points are:-
1)It would seem that the Northern Distribution Network, the main supply line for US and NATO forces in Afghanistan, is soon to become a two-way street.

2)The NDN -- a network of road, rail and air routes that traverses Central Asia states -- came into being in early 2009. It was developed as an alternative to a Pakistani supply line that had become increasingly vulnerable to ambushes. Despite higher transit costs, the NDN carries close to 90 percent of all non-military items bound for Afghanistan. In addition, more than 60 percent of Coalition Forces fuel needs are transited through Central Asia. *Pakistans decision to close another supply route means that the NDNs strategic importance is only going to grow in the coming months.*

3)A November 14 sources-sought notice posted on the US governments Federal Business Opportunities website indicates that the German-run Camp Marmal near Mazar-i-Sharif will be substantially enlarged to facilitate a Northern Distribution Network hub at a cost earmarked to be between $10 million and $25 million.


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## Al Bhatti

Emmie said:


> Typically a CHORAHA kind of argument... PAF bases under US control sounds weird to me, I can't say anything about the presence of Americans on those bases but for sure Pakistan is fully controlling those bases except Shamsi that we gave to UAE



Sir, I am just assuming what i wrote and i very much wish i am wrong, but, how did people come to know about Shamsi? The officials did not openly say in the beginning that an airstrip is with UAE. Also they did not officially say later that the base has been given to USA by UAE, all the info was leaked some how or the other and in the end after "OBL raid" it was talked about in the in-house session of Parliament that UAE has the base. The authorities have learnt a good lesson from the leaks and are making sure no such leaks are made again

What if the US has bases for logistics purposes only which might be being used for other things as well?, Isn't it po*$$*ible? All the past years aren't enough for something of this sort to happen given the kind of leadership we have.

In Arabic there is a saying &#1608; &#1605;&#1575; &#1582;&#1601;&#1610; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1575;&#1593;&#1592;&#1605; means what is hidden is greater.


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## Developereo

Asim Aquil said:


> The reality is, the military leadership is eating off of the US aid as well and all of this is a big song and dance to somehow placate the masses and eat the halwa whenever they get the chance to.



Absolutely!

We can accept that Pakistan does not have the military capability to fight NATO, but there is NOTHING stopping us from halting all NATO supplies through and over Pakistan.

This government and military are pathetically weak or, worse, sellouts.

If the military is afraid that American sanctions will ground our PAF fleet, then they have only themselves to blame for this gross shortsightedness after 20 years of American duplicity.

Here we can see these losers are waiting for NATO to provide them a face-saving 'excuse' to resume business as usual:



fatman17 said:


> &#8220;Pakistan will surely want to know the exact motive of the attack. Was it the result of intelligence failure or a mistake by a group or an individual?&#8221; retired lieutenant general Talat Masood told AFP.

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## Chandragupta Maurya

Arrogant, brutal, cruel NATO! I stand by my Pakistani friends on this!

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## Al Bhatti

Developereo said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> We can accept that Pakistan does not have the military capability to fight NATO, but there is NOTHING stopping us from halting all NATO supplies through and over Pakistan.
> 
> This government and military are pathetically weak or, worse, sellouts.
> 
> If the military is afraid that American sanctions will ground our PAF fleet, then they have only themselves to blame for this gross shortsightedness after 20 years of American duplicity.
> 
> Here we can see these losers are waiting for NATO to provide them a face-saving 'excuse' to resume business as usual:



-----

"&#8220;This (regret) is not good enough. We strongly condemn the attacks and reserve the right to take action,&#8221; said DG ISPR General Athar Abbas, while speaking to the national and international media from abroad on Monday. *&#8220;This could have serious consequences* in the level and extent of our cooperation,&#8221; he added."

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-grave-consequences-dg-ispr.html#post2338428

---

From "will have serious consequences" to "could have serious consequences"

Thing$ are $tarting to cool down and cool head$ are $tarting to prevail at government level. $oon it will be bu$ine$$ a$ u$ual between the two.

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## deltacamelately

Rest in peace.

Gentlemen,
This is a war zone we are speaking about. Such blue-on-blue incidents are not very rare, even if highly regrettable.
The NATO/ISAF and PA Forces are caught in a tight situation. There is definitely some communication but there is also absence of a compatible communication grid, that can actually thwart such deadly encounters. US and GoP relations might have got strained as of now, however, it is highly unlikely that both the countries would part ways over such an accident. There's a hell lot of mutual interests at stake with the on-going war in AStan. Both the partys will have to find ways to accommodate each other's sensitivities.


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## Cent4

LAHORE: *Pakistan will boycott an international conference on Afghanistan's future in Bonn next week to protest against a Nato cross-border attack that killed two dozen soldiers, Geo News reported Tuesday.
*
Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, while chairing the Cabinet meeting, announced to summon a joint session of the parliament after the recommendations of the parliamentary committee on National Security to discuss Mohmand Agency incident and the controversial memo affair. 

Foreign ministers belonging to more than 90 countries are expected to attend the Bonn Conference that is believed to take up sensitive and thorny issues regarding the withdrawal of occupying forces for the war torn country and entering into dialogue with the Taliban.

The Cabinet agreed that unilateral actions like Abbottabad incident and last Saturday in Mohmand Agency were "not acceptable".

Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar briefed the Cabinet about the incident and described the ongoing diplomatic efforts to highlight the violation of Pakistan's territorial sovereignty, which is also a violation of the international law.

The Cabinet extended deepest condolences to the families of those who embraced Shahadat last Saturday in Mohmand Agency. 


Pakistan not to participate in Bonn Conference


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## matador006

Till the other day the Pakistani establishment was crying itself hoarse that US troops were not operating drones from it's airbases and now today they are asking the Americans to vacate the Airbase.

Classical doublespeak from across the border. After 15- 20 days things will settle down and the Americans will continue to operate from within Pakistan.

US controls their purse strings and the minute IMF delays or cancels the next installment Pakistan is going to default on their debt repayments.


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## regular

Super Falcon said:


> pata nahe probleum kia hai is forum ka moderators ka sath koi thread kholo tu band kar deta han as being pakistani we should ask our armed forces what they did in last 10 years nothing US operatives are walking in pakistani streets killing in our own country our people govt and army did nothing drones did nothing our bases in US control we cannot do anything abotabad airforce and army was sleeping infact 2 meters from army base this was happening and now this and still airforce is sleeping i think it is for sure we should now that blood of pakistani people are nothing infront of armed forces whos duty is to save any type of attack on pakistani soil


I guess If Our army is failing to protect its pplz/awaam or innocent soldiers from the US/NATO attack then we shold give the contract to China or Russia to keep us safe from these evil warmongorers.....


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## Developereo

patna_ke_presley said:


> NDN.



The NDN is a can of worms.

Even without Russian demands to scrap the missile shield in Eastern Europe -- something that will destroy America's image in these countries -- there is the question of Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, both of which have their own insurgency problems with Taliban allies. Also, cozying up to Turkey will strain America's relationship with Israel.

Money is the least of America's concerns when considering the NDN.


----------



## Patriot

Al Bhatti said:


> Sir, I am just assuming what i wrote and i very much wish i am wrong, but, how did people come to know about Shamsi? The officials did not openly say in the beginning that an airstrip is with UAE. Also they did not officially say later that the base has been given to USA by UAE, all the info was leaked some how or the other and in the end after "OBL raid" it was talked about in the in-house session of Parliament that UAE has the base. The authorities have learnt a good lesson from the leaks and are making sure no such leaks are made again
> 
> What if the US has bases for logistics purposes only which might be being used for other things as well?, Isn't it po*$$*ible? All the past years aren't enough for something of this sort to happen given the kind of leadership we have.
> 
> In Arabic there is a saying &#1608; &#1605;&#1575; &#1582;&#1601;&#1610; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1575;&#1593;&#1592;&#1605; means what is hidden is greater.


Please stop sucking up to UAE Shiekhs?They are not better then NATO - In fact UAE even gave stapled visa to Citizens and PM of J&K..You are acting more Arbi then Arabis themselves.


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## BATMAN

fatman17 said:


> SF in the 80's we had a mil-govt and it had given 'green-signal' to armed forces to 'retaliate' if anyone violates our border/airspace and PAF did exactly that - NOW we have a civilian govt. which has not given such orders to the armed forces to do like-wise esp. on the western border - on the eastern border the standing orders are different - *we should ask why?*



Simple answer..... army shall come out in public.. and open the secrets.

If Haqqani can get bharti dictation on KL bill than there is nothing to hide.. PA is at war and enemies are within and evidence is in abundance.


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## Mav3rick

Mytime said:


> If you get your facts right you will know that only one third of NATO supplies to Afghan are reaching via Pakistan ...
> 
> Now to the point , Your leaders both Military and Civilian are in cahoots with NATO , your leaders are screaming on top of your voice now , there are already 1000s of pak army men dead in WOT since last ten years .... did any thing change then???


 
It's you, actually, that needs to get the facts straight! NATO gets almost 50% of her supplies through Pakistan and the US get around 30-40% of her supplies through Pakistan.


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## Dron.ru

riz1978 said:


> Time to get s-400 from russia


 
If the relationship between India and Pakistan continue to improve, it will be possible interesting joint projects such as the development of new generation systems for air and space defense. Now in the supply of military equipment, we are limited to complex relationships between our partners.

For example, to prevent unauthorized flights by American aircraft with stealth technology in the airspace of Pakistan, we could offer new radar system with separation of transmitter and receiver. At the beginning of this century, Iran wanted to buy us a system that includes the satellite constellation, ground infrastructure with fiber-optic link between passive radars and mobile missile launchers S300. Such system would make it impossible for a military invasion from the air, but the price is $ 4 billion at that time appeared unacceptable to Iran. Now they would be happy to buy such system, but the political situation in the world has changed and now we are more difficult to sell to Iran what it wants.

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## LeGenD

whitenose said:


> I was reading this and had to register to ask why posters are so defeatist? NATO is not in a good place strategically it has 130000 troops dispersed across Afghanistan, from different nationalities,and without proper resupply if Pakistan mobilizes it's armed forces I'm pretty sure they could quickly overrun the isolated NATO forces and escort them out of Afghanistan.Blitzkrieg NATO would run out of ammunition in days.But it all depends on what the Pakistani military/political leadership decides to do I don't think it would be a one sides confrontation. Certainly Pakistan might suffer heavy causalities in the initial assault but as shown by the Soviets during WW2 and Chinese in the Korean war you could overrun even the most superior firepower through numbers.And again they have no resupply it would be over in a week they would simply have no ammunition left.And the Chinese fought the entire UN not even just NATO and the UN had a lot more forces and proper resupply.Pakistan should think of it's strategic interests the future is in an alliance with China. NATO simply doesn't belong in the region and will eventually leave anyway.Their presence is only temporary.


Genius, you failed to figure out one thing in your plan: budget

How will you fund such a large military offensive operation? With American Aid?

People need to understand that big talk would achieve nothing. Pakistan needs to stand on its feet and true independence can only be achieved with strong economy.

Also, you are only fooling yourself if you think that NATO forces will run of ammo. Most of the supplies that go through Pakistani routes are not military supplies. These are primarily logistics supplies.

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## Al Bhatti

BATMAN said:


> Simple answer..... army shall come out in public.. and open the secrets.
> 
> If Haqqani can get bharti dictation on KL bill than there is nothing to hide.. PA is at war and enemies are within and evidence is in abundance.



Sir, They won't do that even in their dreams by mistake, except if they figure out up something they think will be good enough to fool the public again.


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## LeGenD

salmakh84 said:


> Slaves will always be slaves....
> 
> The BEST ARMY IN THE WORLD (yeah, right.. lols).. What was it DOING in a WAR region where Army is conducting an OPERATION? There were reportedly 40 Army guys in the POST.. ALL HAVE been KILLED or INJURED and NOT ONE, I repeat, NOT ONE NATO Injury!!!
> 
> Still sleeping?
> 
> When will we learn NATO is our real enemy! STOP SUPPORTING NATO PLEASE
> 
> People swear at me when I laugh at their comments on "Best Army in the World".. and when I post the picture of the rickshaw again (Dont blow horn. Army is sleeping)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> But honestly, here is what I know will happen..
> 
> 
> We will call Core commander meetings, defence meetings, Pass resolutions in NA, Provincial assemblies, register protests.. burn some flags..
> 
> Then Mike Mullen (or whoever is our daddy now) will visit Pakistan.. COAS will visit america.. They will say sorry sorry, wont happen again.. misunderstanding..
> they will give us some more haddis (bones, like $$$), our generals will be blackmailed as usual and then our brave generals and even braver politicians will try to "resolve" this amicably, and give in to most demands, reopen NATO supply, kill some more taliban and than happy couples again...
> 
> till another further incident.. and then drama will repeat itself.


The illusion of 'best army in the world' has been created by us. The sooner we realize our weaknesses, the better.

We need to address our weaknesses. This is the only step towards strengthening the nation.

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## VCheng

whitenose said:


> I was reading this and had to register to ask why posters are so defeatist? NATO is not in a good place strategically it has 130000 troops dispersed across Afghanistan, from different nationalities,and without proper resupply if Pakistan mobilizes it's armed forces I'm pretty sure they could quickly overrun the isolated NATO forces and escort them out of Afghanistan.Blitzkrieg NATO would run out of ammunition in days.But it all depends on what the Pakistani military/political leadership decides to do I don't think it would be a one sides confrontation. Certainly Pakistan might suffer heavy causalities in the initial assault but as shown by the Soviets during WW2 and Chinese in the Korean war you could overrun even the most superior firepower through numbers.And again they have no resupply it would be over in a week they would simply have no ammunition left.And the Chinese fought the entire UN not even just NATO and the UN had a lot more forces and proper resupply.Pakistan should think of it's strategic interests the future is in an alliance with China. NATO simply doesn't belong in the region and will eventually leave anyway.Their presence is only temporary.


 


LeGenD said:


> Genius, you failed to figure out one thing in your plan: budget
> 
> How will you fund such a large military offensive operation? With American Aid?
> 
> People need to understand that big talk would achieve nothing. Pakistan needs to stand on its feet and true independence can only be achieved with strong economy.
> 
> Also, you are only fooling yourself if you think that NATO forces will run of ammo. Most of the supplies that go through Pakistani routes are not military supplies. These are primarily logistics supplies.



Nevermind the budget.

In an all out military confrontation, which MUST not be allowed to happen, PAF will be destroyed within a few hours, all major military installations within one night, and followed by hundreds of other targets destroyed with two days. Oh, and no nukes will be deployable. Pakistani casualties will easily approach a million, mostly military, within two days.

Forget these types of outlandish thoughts. Please calm down.

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## PakShaheen79

*Army rejects Nato's claim*

NOVEMBER 29, 2011 RECORDER REPORT 0 COMMENTS

While rejecting Nato's claim that Pakistan forces initiated fire, Director General, Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), Major General Athar Abbas said on Monday: "Nato forces should present proof if they are claiming that firing was started from the Pakistani side," he said while talking to a private TV channel here.

He added, "No fire was opened from our side and we responded only after the martyrdom of our soldiers." Abbas said that no Nato soldier was injured as a result of firing from Pakistani side.

He said that Nato could not make the excuse that they were chasing terrorists across the border because the area where the attack took place had been cleared.
Athar Abbas said that Nato had been provided maps of all Pakistani check posts as reference and they had also been informed about their positions.

The DG ISPR also said that the attack took place within 200-300 meters within Pakistan's borders and added that the area had been cleared of militants.

He said that the investigations were still going on about the two posts namely Volcano and Golden made beyond Salala.

When attack was initiated, the soldiers deployed on these posts immediately informed the senior officers who took up the issue with regional headquarter at Peshawar and GHQ Rawalpindi.
They informed that the posts were being attacked.

We received information of the martyrdom of 24 soldiers after mortar shelling was stopped from across the border, he added.

He said the attack continued up to two hours in which another 13 soldiers sustained injuries.

Responding to a question he said that he would not speculate regarding apology of Nato.
"Our leadership is reviewing it, Whether it was an unprovoked attack," he added.

He said that the limits of our diplomatic co-operation would also be discussed.

Responding to a query, DG, ISPR said that only Nato chief could answer question about cease-fire as he was duly informed about the attack.

Regarding additional arrangements on border posts, he said that Mohmand Areas was cleared after a long struggle in which more than 70 soldiers embraced martyrdom and more than 250 sustained injuries.
Ruling out presence of terrorists in the area, he said a large number of posts were made to enhance control in that area.

He said that Nato was also informed about presence of these posts and IASF officials were informed whenever a new post was created so that they could retain map references of these posts.

Responding about Shamsi airbase, the DG, ISPR said that he would not speculate on this issue.

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## PakShaheen79

*Army rejects Nato's claim*

NOVEMBER 29, 2011 RECORDER REPORT 0 COMMENTS

While rejecting Nato's claim that Pakistan forces initiated fire, Director General, Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), Major General Athar Abbas said on Monday: "Nato forces should present proof if they are claiming that firing was started from the Pakistani side," he said while talking to a private TV channel here.

He added, "No fire was opened from our side and we responded only after the martyrdom of our soldiers." Abbas said that no Nato soldier was injured as a result of firing from Pakistani side.

He said that Nato could not make the excuse that they were chasing terrorists across the border because the area where the attack took place had been cleared.
Athar Abbas said that Nato had been provided maps of all Pakistani check posts as reference and they had also been informed about their positions.

The DG ISPR also said that the attack took place within 200-300 meters within Pakistan's borders and added that the area had been cleared of militants.

He said that the investigations were still going on about the two posts namely Volcano and Golden made beyond Salala.

When attack was initiated, the soldiers deployed on these posts immediately informed the senior officers who took up the issue with regional headquarter at Peshawar and GHQ Rawalpindi.
They informed that the posts were being attacked.

We received information of the martyrdom of 24 soldiers after mortar shelling was stopped from across the border, he added.

He said the attack continued up to two hours in which another 13 soldiers sustained injuries.

Responding to a question he said that he would not speculate regarding apology of Nato.
"Our leadership is reviewing it, Whether it was an unprovoked attack," he added.

He said that the limits of our diplomatic co-operation would also be discussed.

Responding to a query, DG, ISPR said that only Nato chief could answer question about cease-fire as he was duly informed about the attack.

Regarding additional arrangements on border posts, he said that Mohmand Areas was cleared after a long struggle in which more than 70 soldiers embraced martyrdom and more than 250 sustained injuries.
Ruling out presence of terrorists in the area, he said a large number of posts were made to enhance control in that area.

He said that Nato was also informed about presence of these posts and IASF officials were informed whenever a new post was created so that they could retain map references of these posts.

Responding about Shamsi airbase, the DG, ISPR said that he would not speculate on this issue.


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## PakShaheen79

*Pak military rules out joint probe into Nato raid*
Submitted 32 mins ago

Director General Military Operations Major General Ashfaq Nadeem has rejected Nato&#8217;s offers of carrying out joint investigation into the Nato raid on Pakistan&#8217;s military checkposts in Mohmand Agency. During a media briefing on Tuesday, he said that there was no outcome of such joint probe into the past attacks. He reiterated that the Nato deliberately attacked Pakistani checkposts and continued targeting them for hours. &#8220;It was an open aggression and unprovoked attack,&#8221; he added. The DG MO said it would premature to say anything about motives behind the attack.

Pak military rules out joint probe into Nato raid | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## PakShaheen79

*US-NATO trampled international law; Attacks against Pakistan may recur if sovereignty not fully resp	* 

BEIJING, Nov 29 (APP): People&#8217;s Daily, China&#8217;s most influential and authoritative newspaper, with widest circulation, said the United States has flouted international law and fanned terrorism by mounting the NATO/ISAF airstrikes on the Pakistani army&#8217;s check-posts.Above all, we must be clear that the United States and NATO have trampled on international laws and rules, said a news analysis in the newspaper.The article titled Anti-Terror War Also Needs Rules said Islamabad&#8217;s grip on domestic security will also be weakened, adding this will not only work against the war on terror, it could also leave the risk of long-term turmoil.
The risk in fighting terror this way is that it will ignite latent sympathy and support for terrorism, as well as hurting many innocent people and damaging international law, it stated.
If the US and NATO do not know how to show real respect for Pakistan&#8217;s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity similar unintended attacks will definitely take place again.
The article written, under the pen name, Bell&#8217;s Sound, maintains that If (the US and NATO) do not really respect Pakistan&#8217;s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity, it is possible that similar accidental bombing recur.
The soil nurturing terrorism will become even more fertile, and the space for terrorism to spread even broader, it said.
Peoples Daily newspaper has a daily circulation of around 3.5 million and is published in the Chinese language understood across China.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency )

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## bdslph

yes India and Pakistan should build more better relation , as has somehow showed fruitful and also at the same time Pakistan can buy SAM from Russia 

i also wish Russia can sell its system to IRAN


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## Hulk

Someone posted a video after attack, after looking at it. I felt sad, add to it I am Indian, I still felt bad. I am unable to find any logical support for NATO. Hindustan Times is reporting Pakistan has complained in UN.

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## jahangeer yousaf

only 2 words to nato 

fitay munh


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## air marshal




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## PATRIOT6

jahangeer yousaf said:


> only 2 words to nato
> 
> fitay munh



Fithay Munh is not enough,
It is shame that we lost our soldiers and still our gov and politicians and defence is having only usual dialogue
i feel to pity on those soldiers who aint even try to resist just waited for the higher command orders.
is our blood is meaningless for the west???


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## air marshal




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## VCheng

Al Bhatti said:


> Sir, They won't do that even in their dreams by mistake, except if they figure out up something they think will be good enough to fool the public again.



It is not a matter of IF they figure out something, just watch as they surely WILL fool the public yet again.

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## VCheng

PATRIOT6 said:


> ..............
> is our blood is meaningless for the west???


_
"The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war."_ - General George Patton (quoting Sun Tzu).

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## PATRIOT6

VCheng said:


> _
> "The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war."_ - General George Patton (quoting Sun Tzu).



i would really appreciate your quote , but the war has begun without announcing it in words or dialogues,
and its after shocks will be very Intense. Specially for Pak Army

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## LeGenD

VCheng said:


> Nevermind the budget.
> 
> In an all out military confrontation, which MUST not be allowed to happen, PAF will be destroyed within a few hours, all major military installations within one night, and followed by hundreds of other targets destroyed with two days. Oh, and no nukes will be deployable. Pakistani casualties will easily approach a million, mostly military, within two days.
> 
> Forget these types of outlandish thoughts. Please calm down.


Regardless of the outcome, I salute the brave Pakistani soldiers. They put up a fight even when they have no chance to succeed. These men and women put the coward politicians to shame. 

Comman man cannot endure the challenges these soldiers face on daily basis in one of the toughest regions of the world.

RIP to the 28 defenders of this nation. 

May the affected families get the strength to endure this loss. Ameen.

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## VCheng

LeGenD said:


> Regardless of the outcome, I salute the brave Pakistani soldiers. They put up a fight even when they have no chance to succeed. These men and women put the coward politicians to shame.
> 
> Comman man cannot endure the challenges these soldiers face on daily basis in one of the toughest regions of the world.
> 
> RIP to the 28 defenders of this nation.
> 
> May the affected families get the strength to endure this loss. Ameen.



I agree with you; I have nothing but the deepest admiration, regard, and love for the rank and file soldiers, and even greater consideration for the families of the _shuhada_.

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## Fieldmarshal

*Another pack of lies by Nato*

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-n...f-lies-by-Nato

Today&#8217;s papers carry the news that the Nato Chief has said that the attack on Pakistani soldiers was un-intentional. Very generous of him! Yesterday, I talked to Lt Col Shahid Jan from Peshawar. He had just visited CMH Peshawar to meet the wounded in Salah Post by the US/Nato raid on night of 26 November. This is what he told me. 
There were 14 wounded lying in the surgical ward suffering a variety of wounds. He talked to everyone of them and asked them what had happened. The crux of the account of the soldiers and officers was that *at about 11pm on 26th Nov a light aircraft came from across the border, flew over the post and fired flares and returned. About half an hour later armed helicopters and light aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men. They remained in the area for about 5 to 6 hours. During this time, the helicopter kept firing at individual personnel at will. The post had only one 12.7 anti-aircraft gun which opened fire. The gunner was shot. The major on the post took up the gun and began firing at the helicopters. He was fired at again. While changing position he was hit by a rocket or missile. His body was blasted to pieces. Only his name-plate was found. Every one of the men on the post was killed or wounded. They seemed to be in no hurry and going after each individual separately. Having finished the entire post, they went back without any casualty on their part. *
And the Nato Chief has the effrontery to say that it was un-intentional.
Now my question is, *if for 5 to 6 hours this enemy action was taking place and our ground troops were under such deliberate enemy fire, where was the Army&#8217;s reaction and where was the PAF during all this time? I cannot believe that the Corps HQ or the PAF Northern Command in Peshawar did not know what was going on, on the front. If so, both should be disbanded for deliberate incompetence. *

AYAZ AHMAD, 
Rawalpindi, November 28.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bhairava said:


> *@ bilalhaider, Agnostic Muslim.*
> 
> Watch this video at 1:45.
> 
> Now it becomes clear that the Pakistani soldiers were not killed in sleep but they were retaliating to the NATO attack.
> 
> Yet another 'modification' from the original account.
> 
> General Athar Abbas, Pakistan military spokesman - FRANCE 24


It is not a modification - even the initial reports out of Pakistan indicated that Pakistani troops fired back when they were attacked.

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## PATRIOT6

VCheng said:


> Nevermind the budget.
> 
> In an all out military confrontation, which MUST not be allowed to happen, PAF will be destroyed within a few hours, all major military installations within one night, and followed by hundreds of other targets destroyed with two days. Oh, and no nukes will be deployable. Pakistani casualties will easily approach a million, mostly military, within two days.
> 
> Forget these types of outlandish thoughts. Please calm down.



What do u think is that so easy for west to attack pakistan, the way u desribed is crap
number one : pakistan may have weaker side but they are defending the country they know better than those who will attck
number two: the way u wrote a war in two days , that not even happended in 1965, with no nukes, okay consider the enemy much stronger but still

it took alot of time for evading the army of iraq and afhanistan and so on wherever us attacked

this would be worst than veitnam war if they go for attack

your description in summery is crapy in a sense if that wud be such easier to do then why 
us wud wait for that ?????
and why they offer pakistan 7.2 billion dollars aid and so on

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## fd24

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is not a modification - even the initial reports out of Pakistan indicated that Pakistani troops fired back when they were attacked.



What do they think our troops should have done? I think they expected them to lie down and say come on boys kill us - we will not shoot back. Doesnt matter - bottom line is they were over 2 miles in our Territory and that should say it all.

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## genmirajborgza786

29 November 2011 Last updated at 08:01 ET 
Share this pageEmail Print Share this page
239ShareFacebookTwitter.
*Pakistan 'to boycott Afghan Bonn talks' after Nato raid* 

Many Pakistanis want to cut ties with the US 
Continue reading the main story Taliban ConflictUS patience wears thin [/news/world-us-canada-15027923] Taliban tactical shift [/news/world-south-asia-13589764] Haqqani militant network [/news/world-south-asia-14912957] Q&A: Fighting the Taliban [/news/world-south-asia-11371138] 
Pakistan is to boycott talks on Afghanistan's future in protest at a Nato air strike which killed 24 of its soldiers at the weekend, officials say.

The decision not to attend next week's conference in the German city of Bonn came after a cabinet meeting chaired by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani.

Pakistan says the air strike violated its sovereignty and the mandate of international forces in Afghanistan. 

Nato and the US government have apologised, calling the deaths tragic.

Pakistan has cut crucial Nato supply lines through its territory to Afghanistan. Nato is investigating what happened. 

Tuesday's boycott decision came amid mounting public anger in Pakistan and growing demands from opposition parties to sever ties with the US. 

"The cabinet has unanimously agreed to boycott the Bonn Conference and described the Nato strikes as a violation of all terms and conditions we have with Nato," Pakistan's Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan told the BBC.

Nato supply convoys through Pakistan are at a standstill 
"It's a clear-cut attack on Pakistan's sovereignty and integrity," she added.

Sources close to Afghan President Hamid Karzai told the BBC they understood there would be no Pakistani participation in Bonn. Mr Karzai had rung Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani to urge him to attend.

The Bonn meeting is aimed at bringing together Western and regional leaders to map out a strategy for Afghanistan after the withdrawal of foreign combat forces in 2014.

Afghan officials have claimed that Nato forces were retaliating for gunfire from the Pakistani side of the volatile border on Saturday, a charge denied by Pakistan's military.

The incident has heaped further strain on already troubled relations between Nato and Pakistan, a crucial ally in the fight against the Taliban. 

In recent months, the US military has accused Pakistan's spy agency of supporting militants fighting Nato troops in Afghanistan. Pakistan's military was incensed by the US raid which killed Osama Bin Laden on Pakistani soil in May.

'Under fire'

The night-time attack took place at the Salala checkpoint in Mohmand agency, about 1.5 miles (2.5 km) from the poorly delineated border with Afghanistan, early on Saturday morning.


The Pakistani army said helicopters and fighter aircraft hit two border posts, killing 24 people and leaving 13 injured. 

Unnamed Afghan officials quoted in The Wall Street Journal said Saturday's air strike was called in to shield Nato and Afghan forces who had come under fire.

One official quoted in the paper said that Kabul believed the shooting came from an army base. 

"This is not true. They are making up excuses. What are their losses, casualties?" Pakistani army spokesman Maj-Gen Athar Abbas said in response to the allegations. 

Continue reading the main story US-Pakistan downturn30 Sept 2010: Nato helicopters kill two Pakistani soldiers, prompting nearly two-week border closure in protest22 April 2011: Supplies to Nato forces in Afghanistan halted for three days in protest over drone attacks2 May: US announces Bin Laden's death and says Pakistan not warned of raid2 June: Top US military chief Adm Mike Mullen admits "significant" cut in US troops in Pakistan10 July: US suspends $800m of military aid22 Sept: Outgoing US Adm Mullen accuses Pakistan of supporting Haqqani militant group in Afghanistan; denied by PakistanNew crisis for US-Pakistani ties
Military sources earlier told the BBC that a US-Afghan special forces mission had been in the area, where a Taliban training camp was believed to be operating. 

They said the mission came under fire from a position within Pakistan, and they received permission from the headquarters of Nato's Isaf mission to fire back.

Pakistani officials have consistently maintained that there had been no militant activity in the area. They also said Nato had the grid references of the posts and therefore should not have fired.

Pakistani troops have been fighting the Taliban in the border region for most of the past decade. They still face accusations that they provide sanctuary to some militants launching attacks over the border in Afghanistan. 

The US and Pakistan desperately need each other in order to shape the future of a stable and neutral Afghanistan before Western combat troops withdraw next year, correspondents say.

While Pakistani officials facing mounting domestic anger over ties with the US, they have little room for manoeuvre - the country's military is heavily dependent on US aid.

The BBC's Orla Guerin in Islamabad says there is little chance of ties being cut - but Pakistan is determined to send a message that it will not be satisfied merely with condolences from Nato or promises of an inquiry. 

BBC News - Pakistan 'to boycott Afghan Bonn talks' after Nato raid 

I support Pakistan on this one good move


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## PATRIOT6

in addition i wud like to remind you , fear from defending the nation is moral of cowards.
and the mistake done by general musharaf by allowing them in the premises of coutry 
wud be repeating the future if we stay becoming a lamb.

what is the purpose of army and airforce if we live with heads down.

what afghan fighters ,had to resist worlds best super powers?????
did they have airforce, did they have nukes, i am sure if they wud have nukes these super powers wud never exist on the planet of earth,

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## VCheng

PATRIOT6 said:


> ........... if that wud be such easier to do then why
> us wud wait for that ?????.............



Yes, it would be that easy, trust me.

And why not do it is because there is no REASON to do so, and I hope there never will be.

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## PATRIOT6

Live like donkeys with wise theorey and let them do what they want to do 
or else die like Lions and wont let any other king to rule within kingdom.

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## karan.1970

superkaif said:


> What do they think our troops should have done? I think they expected them to lie down and say come on boys kill us - we will not shoot back. Doesnt matter - bottom line is they were over 2 miles in our Territory and that should say it all.



Wasnt some initial reports saying that most of the Pakistani soldiers died while they were asleep..

Also did the confusion around 2.5 Km and 300 yards get sorted out?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Oldman1 said:


> Afghans say commando unit was attacked before airstrike was called on Pakistan - The Washington Post
> 
> *Both sides said they believed they were attacking insurgents along the border. A senior Pakistani defense official acknowledged that Pakistani troops fired first, sending a flare, followed by mortar and machine-gun fire, toward what he said was suspicious activity in the brush-covered area below their high-altitude outpost barely 500 yards from the border.*
> 
> If you think about it, both sides in an incident when Pakistan troops were killed by NATO forces is by responding to an attack. Not the other way around. Remember the two Pakistani soldiers were killed cause they fired warning shots which can be mistaken for firing on the aircraft. Nobody is suppose to fire warning shots at aircraft. Its too stupid. And then they fire on ISAF personnel that were nearby, its understandable that they believe they were firing possible insurgents but they need to make sure.



1. There is so far no evidence to support the 'anonymous' claims that Pakistani forces fired on NATO troops - Pakistan has outright denied it, and Western media interviews of soldiers wounded in the attack corroborate the Pakistani version.

2. Firing on choppers - yes, Pakistani troops are completely within their rights to fire on helicopters, troops, vehicles that cross into Pakistani territory/airspace without Pakistani authorization. The fault here lies with the troops trespassing, not Pakistan.

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## luckyyy

i think pakistan is not invited..

*The Bonn meeting is aimed at bringing together Western and regional leaders to map out a strategy for Afghanistan after the withdrawal of foreign combat forces in 2014*

does pakistan has the will or the resources to take up any constructive position in afganistan..no !


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 1. There is so far no evidence to support the 'anonymous' claims that Pakistani forces fired on NATO troops - Pakistan has outright denied it, and Western media interviews of soldiers wounded in the attack corroborate the Pakistani version.
> 
> 2. Firing on choppers - yes, Pakistani troops are completely within their rights to fire on helicopters, troops, vehicles that cross into Pakistani territory/airspace without Pakistani authorization. The fault here lies with the troops trespassing, not Pakistan.



The ISAF/NATO investigation report will be finalized by December 23. I would urge all to wait till then, and hold off speculation.


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## BATMAN

Omar1984 said:


> *NATO attack was launched to rescue TTP militants*
> 
> Islamabad&#8212;Military observers now believe that the NATO aircraft which attacked and killed 24 Pakistani soldiers were in fact sent to rescue the TTP terrorists who had been encircled by Pakistani forces near Silalah check posts.
> 
> The defence observers who are closely monitoring the situation told Pakistan Observer that reports suggest that Pakistani soldiers had encircled a group of TTP terrorists who had been active in the most difficult area where Pakistani armed forces had gained ground after paying much sacrifice.
> 
> According to a report a group of TTP terrorists who had penetrated from Afghanistan had been surrounded by Pakistani armed forces in the region on November 25 and were about to be eliminated from within next few hours. But all of a sudden NATO aircraft reached and mercilessly attacked Pakistan army&#8217;s check posts. Pakistani officials in the region immediately sent messages to their ISAF counterparts in Afghanistan notifying the attack by aircraft but no action was taken and the attack continued for more than thirty minutes destroying all two Pakistan check posts in the area.
> 
> It is no secret that TTP terrorists leaders, Waliur Rehman and Mullah Fazlullah are residing across the border in Kunar and Nuristan and had recently vowed to return to Pakistan to carry out more terrorist attacks inside Pakistan.
> 
> Afghan monitors also say that anti-Pakistan Afghan commanders have been deployed along Pak-Afghan borders across Mohamand Agency where Pakistani armed forces had launched two operations against terrorists causing considerable casualties to the militants.
> 
> Afghan monitors believe that at least two Afghan military officials who have direct or indirect links had been posted in the region. These two Afghan military officials Brig. Gen. Aminullah Amarkhel and Colonel Numan Hatifi (of 201st Silab Corps) are known for their anti-Pakistan sentiments and links with elements aiming to malign Pakistan.
> 
> 
> NATO attack was launched to rescue TTP militants



this is ugly as it gets.


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## T-Rex

luckyyy said:


> i think pakistan is not invited..


*
So, don't blame Pakistan for not attending. I'm sure you've been invited along with your friends on this forum, so be happy.*

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## PATRIOT6

VCheng said:


> Yes, it would be that easy, trust me.
> 
> And why not do it is because there is no REASON to do so, and I hope there never will be.



whatever, It needs only 1 Real MArshall Gen. to redefine the pride of Pakistan.

Else no comments

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------




slytherin said:


> who talked about bombay blasts???? do u even know the topic of discussion??



hahaha well i dont know who was it

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

this is my first experience to share my views.
i hope most of them wud be really skattered out of topic above.
but the thing is everyone has right to speak

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The ISAF/NATO investigation report will be finalized by December 23. I would urge all to wait till then, and hold off speculation.


Why should we wait? The Pakistani investigation is complete and the facts have been established.

The only thing the NATO investigation can offer is an explanation on why NATO leadership authorized the strikes on known Pakistani bases and why the channels of communication broke down.

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## PATRIOT6

and if somehow i get emotional or somthing out of the topic 
it will take time for me to focus on these kinda issues onwards.
c u soon
aDios!

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## Patriot

luckyyy said:


> i think pakistan is not invited..
> 
> *The Bonn meeting is aimed at bringing together Western and regional leaders to map out a strategy for Afghanistan after the withdrawal of foreign combat forces in 2014*
> 
> does pakistan has the will or the resources to take up any constructive position in afganistan..no !


You are a stupid A$$ who thinks world revolves around India.


> . The absence of Pakistan&#8212;which has for years played a major role in Afghanistan's internal affairs, including helping to set up the Taliban in the 1990s, and is key to a settlement there&#8212; is a major blow to the U.S.Islamabad's decision to stay away is a blow to U.S. goals and shows how poor relations between the two nations are complicating Washington's efforts to wind down the war.
> 
> "We hope that our brothers in Pakistan will make the decision to participate," said Mr. Mosazai. "Pakistan has a crucial role to play in supporting Afghanistan's quest for long-term peace and stability."


Pakistan Will Not Attend Bonn Meeting on Afghanistan - WSJ.com

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## hunter_hunted

luckyyy said:


> i think pakistan is not invited..
> 
> *The Bonn meeting is aimed at bringing together Western and regional leaders to map out a strategy for Afghanistan after the withdrawal of foreign combat forces in 2014*
> 
> does pakistan has the will or the resources to take up any constructive position in afganistan..no !





wow Pakistan is not invited ooooooo then plz enlighten us, whats the use of this meeting, is this a TEA PARTY or a DANCE CONCERT? coz if it is than go ahead 

AND for ur withdrawal comment pls tell us that from where US is going to withdraw. Without Pakistan's support US will never withdraw with honor. It will be a "deja vu" means Vietnam incident and if they continued this fighting it will be like a Soviet incident. Carry on US u have no idea whom u r messing with.

And for Afghanistan I can only say God bless Afghanistan for having such constructive friends first they destroy Afghanistan and later do constructions just on papers by making designs 

Construction my foot.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why should we wait? The Pakistani investigation is complete and the facts have been established....................



You mean there is a final official investigative report by PA out, that the ISPR used as the basis for its public statement?

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## fd24

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why should we wait? The Pakistani investigation is complete and the facts have been established.
> 
> The only thing the NATO investigation can offer is an explanation on why NATO leadership authorized the strikes on known Pakistani bases and why the channels of communication broke down.



because Nato are the self appointed global police officers of the world. Whatever your facts are they wont be the true facts unless the USA and Nato have spoken.
BTW these are the same people that had so many different versions of the same story when they caught OBL. They cant even lie properly. Their version will change. Apart from Cheng and one or two trolls may not believe the Pakistani version - thats because they are blinded by big Sam.

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## Evil Flare

luckyyy said:


> i think pakistan is not invited..
> 
> *The Bonn meeting is aimed at bringing together Western and regional leaders to map out a strategy for Afghanistan after the withdrawal of foreign combat forces in 2014*
> 
> does pakistan has the will or the resources to take up any constructive position in afganistan..no !



Typical Indian mentality ...

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## Stealth

*LANAT is koom pe begerat kom begerat FAUJI Hukmaran begerat govt...

RUSSIA Threatening China threatening Iran threatening Turkey Threatening ... and country jiskay saath huwa hey KEEP QUIET begerat FAUJI HUKMARAN begerat kay bachay!*


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## Don Jaguar

Self Delete.

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## Stealth

*LANAT is koom pe begerat kom begerat FAUJI Hukmaran begerat govt...

RUSSIA Threatening China threatening Iran threatening Turkey Threatening ... and country jiskay saath huwa hey KEEP QUIET begerat FAUJI HUKMARAN begerat kay bachay!*

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## hatf IX

luckyyy said:


> i think pakistan is not invited..
> 
> *The Bonn meeting is aimed at bringing together Western and regional leaders to map out a strategy for Afghanistan after the withdrawal of foreign combat forces in 2014*
> 
> does pakistan has the will or the resources to take up any constructive position in afganistan..no !


 
i think all the routs of trade to Afghanistan are routed through Pakistan.

Pakistan provide free trade facility through its sea port . . . . . so all the opportunity cost is help from Pakistan . . . . . make your calculation . . . . $$$$$$$$$$$$$

so Pakistan is key here . . . . .


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## A1Kaid

This is not "Breaking News" this was announced like a day after the attack on PA troops.


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## BATMAN

Merkel very sorry about Pakistan boycott of Afghan meet

BERLIN: German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Tuesday she was "very sorry" about Pakistan's announced boycott of a Bonn conference next week on the future of Afghanistan and would try to convince it to attend.	

Merkel said Germany would still "see what could be done to change" Islamabad's decision to bow out of the meeting in the western German city, taken in protest at NATO air strikes which killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.	

"We are both interested in constructive development of Afghanistan," Merkel told reporters at a joint press conference with visiting King Abdullah II of Jordan.	

"Which is why I consider the conference hosted by the (German) foreign minister to be very important. 

We always said that conflicts can only be resolved in the region and Pakistan is part of this region which is why we are very sorry that this cancellation came today."	

Merkel said that Berlin had not given up on convincing Islamabad to reverse its decision and attend the Bonn meeting, which will bring together foreign ministers from around 100 countries to discuss commitments to the war-ravaged country after the withdrawal of NATO troops in 2014.	

"I understand Pakistan's concern about the loss of human life due to NATO troops but this should not distract from the fact that this Afghanistan conference is a very, very important conference," she said.


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## A1Kaid

Most of us didn't even know these talks existed until Pakistan opted out. So don't act like it's breaking news.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> You mean there is a final official investigative report by PA out, that the ISPR used as the basis for its public statement?


Final investigative report in the public domain? No.

But the PA has investigated the attacks on its end and established the facts, as relayed by the DG ISPR.

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------




karan.1970 said:


> Wasnt some initial reports saying that most of the Pakistani soldiers died while they were asleep..


That remains the Pakistani position AFAIK - the majority of the soldiers were asleep - there were however guards on duty of course.

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## Cent4

Pakistan


*Pakistans decision on Shamsi airbase should be honoured: ISAF*


KABUL: Pakistans decision of asking the US to vacate Shamshi airbase within 15 days should be honoured, said the spokesman for ISAF on Tuesday. 

The spokesman added that the decision was a matter of Pakistans sovereignty

During a press briefing the spokesman expressed his hope that the government of Pakistani would join the Nato attack investigation and both parties would be united in their quest to build regional security.

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## VelocuR

*ISAF,NATO attacks on Pakistani posts on Afghan border not unintended: DG MO *


RAWALPINDI, Nov 29 (APP): Terming the strikes on Pakistani posts by Coalition and International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) force unprovoked act of blatant aggression, Director General, Military Operations, Maj Gen Ishfaq Nadeem said on Tuesday that attacks were not unintended in which all coordination procedures were violated. *The positions of the posts were already conveyed to the ISAF through map references and it was impossible that they did not know these to be our posts,* he said while briefing columnists, defence analysts and television anchorpersons here at GHQ. Chief of General Staff, Lt General Waheed Arshad was also present during the briefing.

The DG MO said that there were four border communication centres to coordinate operations against militants but,unfortunately, all Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) were violated by ISAF and North Atlantic Tearty Organization (NATO) on the night of attack.
*The area where the attacks were carried out was already cleared of the militants by Pakistani forces and there was not any cross border movement of terrorists from Pakistan to Afghan territory, *he added.

The DG MO apprised that prior to this incident, there had been three attacks which were carried out from across the border in 2008, 2010 and 2011 killing 14 Pakistani soldiers and injuring another 13 troops.

No information regarding inquiry of these attacks was shared or provided to us despite our repeated requests and when provided, it was inaccurate and incomplete, he added. Giving details of the incident, he said after the midnight on November 26, *2 to 3 helicopters appeared and started engaging Volcano post breaking down all communication systems.*
In response, the Boulder post engaged helicopters with anti aircraft guns and all available weapons. The helicopter also attacked this post.
He said all channels of coordination methods were immediately activated. We informed them about the attack. But, the helicopters reappeared and also engaged the Boulder post.

In both attacks, 24 soldiers including two officers embraced Shahadat while 15 others sustained injuries, he added.
Responding to a question, regarding response, he said that army deployment on the Western border was not against ISAF and NATO forces rather it was against militants.

When asked why did the ISAF and NATO attack on Pakistani posts and what type of advantage they wanted to get, he said that people could better analyze in the backdrop of environment emerged after the May 2 incident. To a query, he said the response of the Government was adequate and mentioned the Defence Cabinet Committee (DCC) meeting and vacation of Shamsi airbase.

About Pakistan Air Force response, he said the situation was not clear till morning so considering on ground situation which was not clear, the PAF was not asked to respond. He said that the President, Prime Minister and Defence Minister were informed about the incident on the next morning after situation became clear.

To another question, *he said that Army also takes deaths of civilians in Drone attacks very seriously and said the attacks should be stopped as these were proving counter-productive and increasing militancy.*

Regarding Afghan media reports about shelling on Afghans from Pakistani side, he said that Afghan media reports were totally incorrect and there was no truth in them. The Afghan government officials have agreed that the information shared by locals with them was totally wrong.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - ISAF,NATO attacks on Pakistani posts on Afghan border not unintended: DG MO

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Most analysts were already looking at the talks as meaningless, especially after the ones in Turkey, which were supposed to have acted as a 'launch pad' for the policies that would have been agreed upon in Bonn.

I know some people are concerned about Pakistan 'losing a voice' at the conference and therefore in the 'end game', but the 'voice' that really matters is not going to be determined at the conference, but between the major players in Afghanistan.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Final investigative report in the public domain? No.
> 
> But the PA has investigated the attacks on its end and established the facts, as relayed by the DG ISPR.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------
> 
> 
> That remains the Pakistani position AFAIK - the majority of the soldiers were asleep - there were however guards on duty of course.



If there is a final internal report, not made public understandably, then it is good. Let us see if ISPR are able to project the findings to maximum advantage.

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## BATMAN

^^ I agree, bonn would not have bring much change to the failed talks in turkey but i think may be Pakistan could have taken the opportunity to present his point of view over NATO raids and share our side of story with western world.


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## VelocuR

aliabid said:


> Pakistan
> 
> 
> *Pakistan&#8217;s decision on Shamsi airbase should be honoured: ISAF*
> 
> 
> KABUL: Pakistan&#8217;s decision of asking the US to vacate Shamshi airbase within 15 days should be honoured, said the spokesman for ISAF on Tuesday.
> 
> The spokesman added that the decision was a matter of Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty
> 
> *During a press briefing the spokesman expressed his hope that the government of Pakistani would join the Nato attack investigation and both parties would be united in their quest to build regional security.*




Pakistan must do independent investigation and reports, not joint with NATO bullshitting probe.


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## fatman17

VCheng said:


> The ISAF/NATO investigation report will be finalized by December 23. I would urge all to wait till then, and hold off speculation.



so this will the FINAL WORD on the incident and we will live happily ever after! - pl spare me!

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> so this will the FINAL WORD on the incident and we will live happily ever after! - pl spare me!



Not at all. 

My point is that both sides need to produce final reports that can form the basis for not only understanding what happened, but also help reduce the likelihood of any such future incidents.

Throwing tantrums will not help anybody.


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## Cent4

RaptorRX707 said:


> Pakistan must do independent investigation and reports, not joint with NATO bullshitting probe.



There is not much to investigate on our side.....we were attacked by NATO helis well inside border its as simple as that..

what else is there to investigate ?

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## BATMAN

superkaif said:


> because Nato are the self appointed global police officers of the world. Whatever your facts are they wont be the true facts unless the USA and Nato have spoken.
> BTW these are the same people that had so many different versions of the same story when they caught OBL. They cant even lie properly. Their version will change. Apart from Cheng and one or two trolls may not believe the Pakistani version - thats because they are blinded by big Sam.



No Sir, it is against the charter of NATO to operate out side the territory of EU.


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## VelocuR

aliabid said:


> There is not much to investigate on our side.....we were attacked by NATO helis well inside border its as simple as that..
> 
> what else is there to investigate ?



it is inside Pakistan border between 1-2.5 km, I thought?

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## Cent4

VCheng said:


> Not at all.
> 
> My point is that both sides need to produce final reports that can form the basis for not only understanding what happened, but also* help reduce the likelihood of any such future incidents*.
> 
> Throwing tantrums will not help anybody.



Even when NATO were contacted and told that its blue on blue that did not stop the helis from firing then what else can reduce the likelyhood of such attacks happening again

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## Stealth

Many parties in USA Isreal and India interested that war between NATO US and PAKISTAN. The best solution is to talk with CHINA and RUSSIA and take this issue in UN. Russia and China already interested to oppose everything which US want... especially in this WOT issue and if Russia China support Pakistan USA cant do anything and puppet US organization cant do anything because this isssue against USA so 4 veto powers are left China, Russia, UK and France. 2 X 2 win win situation for Pakistan.


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## Polemos

> secret societies, secret oaths and secret proceedings&#8230; a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific, and political operations.



Nice article.. And a good premise for the next Dan Brown novel.


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## maverick1977

karan.1970 said:


> Wasnt some initial reports saying that most of the Pakistani soldiers died while they were asleep..
> 
> Also did the confusion around 2.5 Km and 300 yards get sorted out?



Most of the soldiers died during their sleep and left over who manned the guns were killed in due process.... ensuing combat between couple of alive soldiers who came to take down the chopper with 12.7mm guns were also killed. i love how indians are looking for a reason to find inconsistencies in pakistani story, forgetting that their masters gora decieved them again and again when they ruled the sub-continent. you are now slated a new "B" of west, wait and see what will happen to you. welcome to slavery 401.

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## Adnan Faruqi

Not an wise decision.

It will be pakistan's loss if it isolates itself from the world and neighborhood.


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## VCheng

BATMAN said:


> No Sir, it is against the charter of NATO to operate out side the territory of EU.



That is INCORRECT.

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## Cent4

RaptorRX707 said:


> it is inside Pakistan border between 1-2.5 km, I thought?



It doesn't matter whether the post was 1.5 mile inside the border or 1.5 mm inside the border.
they were contacted and told its BLUE ON BLUE attack still continued.
And according to DG MO it lasted 5-6 hours that is no joke

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## Creder

*US military chief declines to apologise for airstrike deaths*

Video: US military chief declines to apologise for airstrike deaths - Telegraph


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## fd24

aliabid said:


> It doesn't matter whether the post was 1.5 mile inside the border or 1.5 mm inside the border.
> they were contacted and told its BLUE ON BLUE attack still continued.
> And according to DG MO it lasted 5-6 hours that is no joke



Yet Cheng wants to wait for his beloved white man to come down from planet mars and give his version to passify his thoughts. The more we here blue on blue yet the continuation of hostility is making our bloods boil. The time lapse just adds icing on the cake

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## BATMAN

U.S. suspects NATO forces lured into deadly raid
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-11-29/pakistan-attack-nato/51460636/1
WASHINGTON (AP) &#8211; NATO forces may have been lured into attacking friendly Pakistani border posts in a calculated maneuver by the Taliban, according to preliminary U.S. military reports on the deadliest friendly fire incident with Pakistan since the Afghanistan war began.

The NATO airstrike killed 24 Pakistani soldiers over the weekend in an apparent case of mistaken identity, The Associated Press has learned.
A joint U.S.-Afghan patrol was attacked by the Taliban early Saturday morning. While pursuing the enemy in the poorly marked border area, the patrol seems to have mistaken one of the Pakistan troop outposts for a militant encampment and called in a NATO gunship and attack helicopters to open fire.

U.S. officials say the reports suggest the Taliban may have deliberately tried to provoke a cross-border firefight that would set back fragile partnerships between the U.S. and NATO forces and Pakistani soldiers at the ill-defined border. Officials described the records on condition of anonymity to discuss classified matters.
The incident has sent the perpetually difficult U.S.-Pakistan relationship into a tailspin.
On Tuesday, Pakistani Gen. Ashfaq Nadeem called the incident a "deliberate act of aggression" and said it was "next to impossible that NATO" did not know it was attacking Pakistani forces.
Gen. James Mattis, head of U.S. Central Command, announced Monday he has appointed Brig. Gen. Stephen Clark, an Air Force special operations officer, to lead the probe of the incident, and said he must include input from the NATO-led forces in Afghanistan, as well as representatives from the Afghan and Pakistani governments.
Nadeem said the Pakistani army had little faith that any investigation will get to the bottom of the incident and may not cooperate with it. He said other joint inquiries into at least two other similar &#8212; if less deadly &#8212; incidents over the last three years had "come to nothing."
Nadeem made the remarks during a briefing with Pakistani journalists and defense analysts in army headquarters. Foreign media were not invited, but two attendees relayed Nadeem's comments to The Associated Press.
According to the U.S. military records described to the AP, the joint U.S. and Afghan patrol requested backup after being hit by mortar and small arms fire by Taliban militants.
Before responding, the joint U.S.-Afghan patrol first checked with the Pakistani army, which reported it had no troops in the area, the military account said.
Some two hours later, still hunting the insurgents &#8212; who had by then apparently fled in the direction of Pakistani border posts &#8212; the U.S. commander spotted what he thought was a militant encampment, with heavy weapons mounted on tripods.
The joint patrol called for the airstrikes at around 2:21 a.m. Pakistani time, not realizing the encampment was apparently the Pakistani border post.
Records show the aerial response included Apache attack helicopters and an AC-130 gunship.
U.S. officials are working on the assumption the Taliban chose the location for the first attack to create just such confusion and draw U.S. and Pakistani forces into firing on each other, according to U.S. officials briefed on the operation.
At the White House, spokesman Jay Carney said President Barack Obama considers the Pakistani deaths a tragedy, and said the administration is determined to investigate.
The Pentagon released a four-page memo from Mattis directing Clark to determine what happened, which units were involved, which ones did or did not cross the border, how the operation was coordinated, and what caused the deaths and injuries.
Mattis also asked Clark to develop recommendations about how border operations could be improved, and said the final report should be submitted by December 23.
The details of the airstrike emerged as aftershocks were reverberating across the U.S. military and diplomatic landscape Monday, threatening communications and supply lines for the Afghan war and the success of an upcoming international conference.
While U.S. officials expressed regret and sympathy over the cross-border incident, they are not acknowledging blame, amid conflicting reports about who fired first.
The airstrike was politically explosive as well as deadly, coming as U.S. officials were working to repair relations with the Pakistanis after a series of major setbacks, including the U.S. commando raid into Pakistan that killed Osama bin Laden in May.
In recent weeks, military leaders had begun expressing some optimism that U.S.-Pakistan military cooperation along the border was beginning to improve. U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Daniel Allyn told Pentagon reporters just last Tuesday that incidents of firing from Pakistan territory had tapered off somewhat in recent weeks.
Speaking to reporters Monday, Pentagon press secretary George Little stressed the need for a strong military relationship with Pakistan.
"The Pakistani government knows our position on that, and that is we do regret the loss of life in this incident, and we are investigating it," said Little.
The military fallout began almost immediately.
Pakistan has blocked vital supply routes for U.S.-led troops in Afghanistan and demanded Washington vacate a base used by American drones. Pakistan ordered CIA employees to mothball their drone operation at Pakistan's Shamsi air base within two weeks, a senior Pakistani official said. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.
On the diplomatic front, Pakistan said Tuesday it will boycott an international conference on Afghanistan next week to protest the incident.
The decision to boycott the Bonn, Germany, conference was made during a Pakistani Cabinet meeting in the city of Lahore, said three officials who attended the meeting. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media ahead of an official announcement.
The State Department also issued a new warning for U.S. citizens in Pakistan. It said some U.S. government personnel working in Pakistan were being recalled to Islamabad and warned Americans to be on guard for possible retaliation. U.S. citizens in Pakistan are being told to travel in pairs, avoid crowds and demonstrations and keep a low profile.
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;
Associated Press writers Lolita C. Baldor, Bradley Klapper and Pauline Jelinek contributed to this report.
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;
AP Intelligence Writer Kimberly Dozier can be followed on Twitter (at)kimberlydozier.
Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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## iPhone

hopefully they keep a similar strong stance against resuming nato supply routes. the one that matters. even if Pak had decided to attend this meeting , ppl would have been largely ok with it.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

For those with so much 'faith' in NATO capabilities:

*Should we allow Nato free rein to attack and kill people?*

The airstrike that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers is just the latest in a series of mistakes that raise doubts about Nato's credibility


Pratap Chatterjee
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 29 November 2011 08.30 EST


An unmanned Predator drone of the type operating along the Afhanistan-Pakistan border. Photograph: Sipa Press/Rex
Why did Nato forces kill two dozen Pakistani soldiers at a border post in the Mohmand region, some 300 yards across the frontier from Afghanistan early on Saturday morning? The US military claims the attack was in response to hostile fire, and the Pakistanis are demanding proof of that.

There is a very simple explanation of what happened: the US military makes deadly mistakes all the time, and for all its technological wizardry and tremendous firepower, it has very little intelligence on the ground.

"There are many questions that need to be answered," an editorial in the New York Times pronounced:

"Who first fired on the American-Afghan force? Pakistan's army is far too cozy with the Taliban. Were fighters sheltering near the Pakistani outposts? What about Pakistan's claim that the Nato strikes continued for two hours even after Pakistan alerted allied officials? What needs to be done differently going forward?"

In New York and Washington, this is standard fare. We can't trust the Pakistanis, they are with the terrorists. But can we trust Nato or the US military? There are numerous examples of firing on civilians, killing children and even deliberately targeting and assassinating individuals who turn out not to have been the people they were claimed to be. And that is in Afghanistan, a country where the US has easy access.

*A US air force investigation into the killing of 23 civilians in Uruzgan province in February 2010 concluded that it was a tragic mistake. "Information that the convoy was anything other than an attacking force was ignored or downplayed" by the Predator crew, whose reporting was "inaccurate and unprofessional", the investigation by a two-star army general reported.

In September 2010 Nato claimed to have killed Muhammad Amin &#8211; the alleged Taliban deputy governor of Takhar province in Afghanistan &#8211; in a drone strike. Kate Clark, a former BBC correspondent in Kabul who now works for the Afghanistan Analysts Network, and Michael Semple, a Taliban expert at Harvard University, have confirmed that Amin is alive and well and that the dead man was Zabet Amanullah.

Those are just two of the better documented examples: In February 2010 Nato admitted killing 12 civilians in Helmand. The following day it admitted to killing five civilians in Zhari district of Kandahar. Just last week, it admitted killing seven civilians, most of them children, in the same district of Kandahar.

In Pakistan, the US record is even murkier. I work at the Bureau of Investigative Journalism where we have documented the killing of more than 175 children and as many as 600 other civilians inside Pakistan by the CIA.*

So before we jump to conclusions that the Mohmand strike was a result of the Pakistani military's relationship the Taliban, we need to ask ourselves a much more basic question: should we be allowing Nato, let alone the CIA, free rein to attack people and kill them &#8211; especially when their attacks are based on what is clearly very poor intelligence in the field?

Should we allow Nato free rein to attack and kill people? | Pratap Chatterjee | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

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## Cent4

superkaif said:


> Yet Cheng wants to wait for his beloved white man to come down from planet mars and give his version to passify his thoughts. The more we here blue on blue yet the continuation of hostility is making our bloods boil. The time lapse just adds icing on the cake



Everyone has his/her own opinion but for me and the majority its crystal clear.

See everyone is saying the same thing even our corrupt politicians are saying the same thing for the first time( which they were not on 2 may ).


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## tvsram1992

NATO knows how to use pakistani airspace


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## Areesh

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For those with so much 'faith' in NATO capabilities:
> 
> *Should we allow Nato free rein to attack and kill people?*
> 
> The airstrike that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers is just the latest in a series of mistakes that raise doubts about Nato's credibility
> 
> 
> Pratap Chatterjee
> guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 29 November 2011 08.30 EST
> 
> 
> An unmanned Predator drone of the type operating along the Afhanistan-Pakistan border. Photograph: Sipa Press/Rex
> Why did Nato forces kill two dozen Pakistani soldiers at a border post in the Mohmand region, some 300 yards across the frontier from Afghanistan early on Saturday morning? The US military claims the attack was in response to hostile fire, and the Pakistanis are demanding proof of that.
> 
> There is a very simple explanation of what happened: the US military makes deadly mistakes all the time, and for all its technological wizardry and tremendous firepower, it has very little intelligence on the ground.
> 
> "There are many questions that need to be answered," an editorial in the New York Times pronounced:
> 
> "Who first fired on the American-Afghan force? Pakistan's army is far too cozy with the Taliban. Were fighters sheltering near the Pakistani outposts? What about Pakistan's claim that the Nato strikes continued for two hours even after Pakistan alerted allied officials? What needs to be done differently going forward?"
> 
> In New York and Washington, this is standard fare. We can't trust the Pakistanis, they are with the terrorists. But can we trust Nato or the US military? There are numerous examples of firing on civilians, killing children and even deliberately targeting and assassinating individuals who turn out not to have been the people they were claimed to be. And that is in Afghanistan, a country where the US has easy access.
> 
> *A US air force investigation into the killing of 23 civilians in Uruzgan province in February 2010 concluded that it was a tragic mistake. "Information that the convoy was anything other than an attacking force was ignored or downplayed" by the Predator crew, whose reporting was "inaccurate and unprofessional", the investigation by a two-star army general reported.
> 
> In September 2010 Nato claimed to have killed Muhammad Amin &#8211; the alleged Taliban deputy governor of Takhar province in Afghanistan &#8211; in a drone strike. Kate Clark, a former BBC correspondent in Kabul who now works for the Afghanistan Analysts Network, and Michael Semple, a Taliban expert at Harvard University, have confirmed that Amin is alive and well and that the dead man was Zabet Amanullah.
> 
> Those are just two of the better documented examples: In February 2010 Nato admitted killing 12 civilians in Helmand. The following day it admitted to killing five civilians in Zhari district of Kandahar. Just last week, it admitted killing seven civilians, most of them children, in the same district of Kandahar.
> 
> In Pakistan, the US record is even murkier. I work at the Bureau of Investigative Journalism where we have documented the killing of more than 175 children and as many as 600 other civilians inside Pakistan by the CIA.*
> 
> So before we jump to conclusions that the Mohmand strike was a result of the Pakistani military's relationship the Taliban, we need to ask ourselves a much more basic question: should we be allowing Nato, let alone the CIA, free rein to attack people and kill them &#8211; especially when their attacks are based on what is clearly very poor intelligence in the field?
> 
> Should we allow Nato free rein to attack and kill people? | Pratap Chatterjee | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk



Good article by *Pratap Chatterjee*. Apparently it looks like living in USA has helped him to see beyond hatred which isn't the case for many here. Good one.

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## blain2

Here is some back-peddling on the issue.

"U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid"
U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid - CBS News

Not that things cannot be confused, but it seems there was significant communication between the higher headquarters on both sides while the action was ongoing. Yet despite that, the strikes by Apaches and the AC-130 were carried out.

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## chava

this is bound to happen if US comes in, US treats friends worse than enemies

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## blain2

chava said:


> this is bound to happen if US comes in, US treats friends worse than enemies



You should beware!

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## fd24

blain2 said:


> Here is some back-peddling on the issue.
> 
> "U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid"
> U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid - CBS News
> 
> Not that things cannot be confused, but it seems there was significant communication between the higher headquarters on both sides while the action was ongoing. Yet despite that, the strikes by Apaches and the AC-130 were carried out.



Goodness me - just read it. Is that why they continued to bomb the sh1t out of the posts - even after they heard it was blue on blue?

I like this comment on the same post at the bottom.

h_*is is completely possible, in that the highest education level of the Taliban is somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd grade level. So, they should be able to out fox our military, the USA leaders without even having to think about it!*_

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## VelocuR

blain2 said:


> Here is some back-peddling on the issue.
> 
> "U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid"
> U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid - CBS News
> 
> Not that things cannot be confused, but it seems there was significant communication between the higher headquarters on both sides while the action was ongoing. Yet despite that, the strikes by Apaches and the AC-130 were carried out.



Good to see you back. 

Sir, I request you to participate everyday, your few sentences are not enough to know your perspectives and opinions. Being neutral or silence is not helpful.

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## chava

blain2 said:


> You should beware!


 no sir.. we are always non aligned

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## vikrams

Khan_patriot said:


> muthafking zionists.......


Blame Israel on Everything


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## Areesh

Love the way Pakistanis have attacked NATO facebook page. Good work Pakistanis.

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## regular

VCheng said:


> It is not a matter of IF they figure out something, just watch as they surely WILL fool the public yet again.


Yes! Ure right cuz our public is already so much fool...so they don't need to fool them anymore.Thats why they getting backstabbed from the same ruling elite all the time....


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## VelocuR

Areesh said:


> Love the way Pakistanis have attacked NATO facebook page. Good work Pakistanis.



If anyone is missing this thread, please visit- http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/143534-nato-terrorist-awareness.html


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## regular

Fieldmarshal said:


> *Another pack of lies by Nato*
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-n...f-lies-by-Nato
> 
> Todays papers carry the news that the Nato Chief has said that the attack on Pakistani soldiers was un-intentional. Very generous of him! Yesterday, I talked to Lt Col Shahid Jan from Peshawar. He had just visited CMH Peshawar to meet the wounded in Salah Post by the US/Nato raid on night of 26 November. This is what he told me.
> There were 14 wounded lying in the surgical ward suffering a variety of wounds. He talked to everyone of them and asked them what had happened. The crux of the account of the soldiers and officers was that *at about 11pm on 26th Nov a light aircraft came from across the border, flew over the post and fired flares and returned. About half an hour later armed helicopters and light aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men. They remained in the area for about 5 to 6 hours. During this time, the helicopter kept firing at individual personnel at will. The post had only one 12.7 anti-aircraft gun which opened fire. The gunner was shot. The major on the post took up the gun and began firing at the helicopters. He was fired at again. While changing position he was hit by a rocket or missile. His body was blasted to pieces. Only his name-plate was found. Every one of the men on the post was killed or wounded. They seemed to be in no hurry and going after each individual separately. Having finished the entire post, they went back without any casualty on their part. *
> And the Nato Chief has the effrontery to say that it was un-intentional.
> Now my question is, *if for 5 to 6 hours this enemy action was taking place and our ground troops were under such deliberate enemy fire, where was the Armys reaction and where was the PAF during all this time? I cannot believe that the Corps HQ or the PAF Northern Command in Peshawar did not know what was going on, on the front. If so, both should be disbanded for deliberate incompetence. *
> 
> AYAZ AHMAD,
> Rawalpindi, November 28.


By God , Our Army Chief , our PAF chief and the Civil ruling elites they are all traitors and the innocent blood of our poor soldiers are on their sholders...They realli need to be arrested for treason and must be hung to the wall.....if this happened what U've said above.....


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## BATMAN

Creder said:


> *US military chief declines to apologise for airstrike deaths*
> 
> Video: US military chief declines to apologise for airstrike deaths - Telegraph



Decline who?


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## Jango

RaptorRX707 said:


> *ISAF,NATO attacks on Pakistani posts on Afghan border not unintended: DG MO *
> 
> 
> RAWALPINDI, Nov 29 (APP): Terming the strikes on Pakistani posts by Coalition and International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) force unprovoked act of blatant aggression, Director General, Military Operations, Maj Gen Ishfaq Nadeem said on Tuesday that attacks were not unintended in which all coordination procedures were violated. *The positions of the posts were already conveyed to the ISAF through map references and it was impossible that they did not know these to be our posts,* he said while briefing columnists, defence analysts and television anchorpersons here at GHQ. Chief of General Staff, Lt General Waheed Arshad was also present during the briefing.
> 
> The DG MO said that there were four border communication centres to coordinate operations against militants but,unfortunately, all Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) were violated by ISAF and North Atlantic Tearty Organization (NATO) on the night of attack.
> *The area where the attacks were carried out was already cleared of the militants by Pakistani forces and there was not any cross border movement of terrorists from Pakistan to Afghan territory, *he added.
> 
> The DG MO apprised that prior to this incident, there had been three attacks which were carried out from across the border in 2008, 2010 and 2011 killing 14 Pakistani soldiers and injuring another 13 troops.
> 
> No information regarding inquiry of these attacks was shared or provided to us despite our repeated requests and when provided, it was inaccurate and incomplete, he added. Giving details of the incident, he said after the midnight on November 26, *2 to 3 helicopters appeared and started engaging Volcano post breaking down all communication systems.*
> In response, the Boulder post engaged helicopters with anti aircraft guns and all available weapons. The helicopter also attacked this post.
> He said all channels of coordination methods were immediately activated. We informed them about the attack. But, the helicopters reappeared and also engaged the Boulder post.
> 
> In both attacks, 24 soldiers including two officers embraced Shahadat while 15 others sustained injuries, he added.
> Responding to a question, regarding response, he said that army deployment on the Western border was not against ISAF and NATO forces rather it was against militants.
> 
> When asked why did the ISAF and NATO attack on Pakistani posts and what type of advantage they wanted to get, he said that people could better analyze in the backdrop of environment emerged after the May 2 incident. To a query, he said the response of the Government was adequate and mentioned the Defence Cabinet Committee (DCC) meeting and vacation of Shamsi airbase.
> 
> About Pakistan Air Force response, he said the situation was not clear till morning so considering on ground situation which was not clear, the PAF was not asked to respond. He said that the President, Prime Minister and Defence Minister were informed about the incident on the next morning after situation became clear.
> 
> To another question, *he said that Army also takes deaths of civilians in Drone attacks very seriously and said the attacks should be stopped as these were proving counter-productive and increasing militancy.*
> 
> Regarding Afghan media reports about shelling on Afghans from Pakistani side, he said that Afghan media reports were totally incorrect and there was no truth in them. The Afghan government officials have agreed that the information shared by locals with them was totally wrong.
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - ISAF,NATO attacks on Pakistani posts on Afghan border not unintended: DG MO



When your DGMO says that, you know something is really going on.


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## blain2

The above description points out quite a few things. That FLIRs were used to go after each individual jawan and officer. Which means that they could see the silhouettes and make out who they were firing at. Most of the dead and injured were from the regular Army and wore their CCD uniforms which clearly are very distinct and different from what you see in the FLIR when looking at a local wearing baggy Shalwar Kamiz. The fact that not a single jawan or officer escaped (all were either killed or wounded) suggests that they were all individually targeted.

The ones firing at the troops know that Taliban never engage from built up positions and that too manned with HMGs that cannot be moved around easily. The higher HQ on the ISAF side had grid references for this position and someone who gave the go ahead knew the position was manned by the Pakistani Army.

All of these issues require some serious answers.

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## genmirajborgza786

BATMAN said:


> ^^ I agree, bonn would not have bring much change to the failed talks in turkey but i think may be Pakistan could have taken the opportunity to present his point of view over NATO raids and share our side of story with western world.



_to the contrary i think this move by Pakistan to boycott the Bonn conference was the need of the hour ,as the U.S  was looking for a meaningful exit strategy with certain goals aiming to secure its long term interests in the region known as the "end-game" thus raising the eyebrows of key important players like Russia,Iran,china & Saudi Arabia ( as it is the Saudis are getting quiet uncomfortable regarding the American policy in its surrounding region )Pakistan being a key major player in Afghanistan boycotting the event & considering all the key players specially Russia's & china's 'viz-a-viz' Iran's apprehensions of the long term U.S plans for the region has put the end-game in question & thus come to think of it, this has actually open & not closed the doors for Pakistan to get out of clutches of the American domain & has in fact opened the doors for the first time for some real meaningful dialog & understanding with key regional & global players like Russia & also neighboring Iran ( keeping in mind with the recent state visit by Pakistan to Russia & Iran indicates the possibility of some kind of understanding @ that time itself ) as understanding with china was always there in the very first place from the beginning thus the decision to boycott the Bonn conference by Pakistan can actually be beneficial to be honest this move by Pakistan if played well with all its cards executed properly with utmost care with farsighted intelligent diplomacy then it has all the necessity ingredients to be a Geo-Strategic political_ "Masterstroke" _by Pakistan_ indeed .


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## Jango

blain2 said:


> The above description points out quite a few things. That FLIRs were used to go after each individual jawan and officer. Which means that they could see the silhouettes and make out who they were firing at. Most of the dead and injured were from the regular Army and wore their CCD uniforms which clearly are very distinct and different from what you see in the FLIR when looking at a local wearing baggy Shalwar Kamiz. The fact that not a single jawan or officer escaped (all were either killed or wounded) suggests that they were all individually targeted.
> 
> The ones firing at the troops know that Taliban never engage from built up positions and that too manned with HMGs that cannot be moved around easily. The higher HQ on the ISAF side had grid references for this position and someone who gave the go ahead knew the position was manned by the Pakistani Army.
> 
> All of these issues require some serious answers.


In addition to that, the Company HQ was on higher ground, a hill top you can say, and Taliban don't acquire those positions and make a well built structure, housing 40 odd soldiers.

Secondly, the area was cleared some time ago, and NATO were well informed about it, according to DG ISPR, so the argument that they thought that there were militants there is wrong.

Thirdly, a injrued jawan said that they saw 4 helis, and thought for a moment that it was the Taliban who had them. 4 helicopters are not usually sent against some taliban in a very limited area as being described.

Something is definitely amiss, and all the pakistani officials are saying that it was not a mistake.

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## PATRIOT6

chava said:


> this is bound to happen if US comes in, US treats friends worse than enemies



i am totally agreed by the statement


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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> ...............
> All of these issues require some serious answers.



The report comes out December 23rd.


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> The report comes out December 23rd.



The public may very well not see the *exact* story, are you really pinning all your hopes on it?


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## PATRIOT6

u know i think we can do nothing about this matter.

all we can do is to discuss and critize,so i guess for using this forum is informative
and we can add more information in our brain for further discussions.

nation is sleeping and black lambs are ruling the gov

as far as security is concrened its just a word "security" left in Pakistan

and armed forces are focusing on saving their fruits in the garden and trying to get rid of tresspassers.

thats happening in real. 

cuz i tawk of defending directly and people giving rumors my own nation people from army

that pakistan will be ruined , will be finished in days or in hours , bla bla bla 

what about those nations which steer the eyes of us like iran, and north korea , were they stronger in defence

this question i leave to all readers.

describe please.


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## PATRIOT6

PATRIOT6 said:


> u know i think we can do nothing about this matter.
> 
> all we can do is to discuss and critize,so i guess for using this forum is informative
> and we can add more information in our brain for further discussions.
> 
> nation is sleeping and black lambs are ruling the gov
> 
> as far as security is concrened its just a word "security" left in Pakistan
> 
> and armed forces are focusing on saving their fruits in the garden and trying to get rid of tresspassers.
> 
> thats happening in real.
> 
> cuz i tawk of defending directly and people giving rumors my own nation people from army
> 
> that pakistan will be ruined , will be finished in days or in hours , bla bla bla
> 
> what about those nations which steer the eyes of us like iran, and north korea , were they stronger in defence
> 
> this question i leave to all readers.
> 
> describe please.



were they stronger in defence than pakistan????


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## LeGenD

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wrong buddy.
> 
> What happened when the USSR invaded Georgia in 2008? Or when North Korea sunk a South Korean battleship, and then bombarded a South Korean island? Why didn't America stand up for their allies?
> 
> The answer is nukes. America keeps huffing and puffing at North Korea but eventually they had to let North Korea get nukes, and couldn't stop them. They also warned Russia against invading Georgia (who was a close friend of the US), but Russia invaded anyway and America said nothing.
> 
> Pakistan has far more nukes than North Korea. America doesn't attack countries with nukes, we have seen this proven time and time again.
> 
> And even if we were to talk about purely "conventional" warfare, then look at what happened in Vietnam or Afghanistan. America still cannot control Afghanistan after ten years, now imagine how long it will take to bring down a regional nuclear power like Pakistan.


Situation is not so black and white.

North Korea is safe due to Chinese umbrella. 

Contrary to popular belief, nuclear weapons do not scare USA. US covert war inside Pakistan is proof of this. 

Yes, ties between two nations are currently strained. However, Pakistan does not represents a big threat to US interests in the region. 

And there is no justification of how US is treating Pakistan just because the latter wants its interests be respected.

And don't use Vietnam as an example. Chinese experience in Vietnam has not been that brilliant either.

In addition, US military doctrine has evolved since the debacle of Vietnam. There is simply no comparison between US performance in Vietnam and in WOT. US has destroyed 3 nations by now in WOT alone.

Pakistani military establishment is indeed in a very tough situation. Retaliation is not an issue. Consequences actually are. US can easily economically strangulate Pakistan and render its military machine ineffective. If we bring nuclear weapons to the table, US will respond accordingly (keeping in mind its history). One of us eventually has to back down from this *madness* and Pakistan is on the right track.

The only lesson that Pakistan can learn from this mess is that it needs to stand on its feet and stop depending on others. This is the only salvation for Pakistan. Once the world will know that Pakistan is a strong and independent nation, it will refrain from treating Pakistan like a banana republic.

My 2 cents.

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## Khan_patriot

They just screwed with us once more to see what fight we still had left in us and we couldn't do **** about it proving that they can barge up here anytime......REVOLUTION IS WHAT WE NEED........


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## r3alist

luckyyy said:


> i think pakistan is not invited..
> 
> *The Bonn meeting is aimed at bringing together Western and regional leaders to map out a strategy for Afghanistan after the withdrawal of foreign combat forces in 2014*
> 
> does pakistan has the will or the resources to take up any constructive position in afganistan..no !




india cannot even come close to doing anything constructive for hundreds of millions of its own citizens, you look around your cities and its full of *****, so look to yourself!


let me state the obvious, pakistan shares a pashtun population and big border with afghanistan, pak are CENTRAL to the situation, india is the impostor and only has a seat because its a mini US wannabe hoping us will make indians feeling of impotency disappear.


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## Cent4

VCheng said:


> The report comes out December 23rd.



what do you expect that what would be in that report....
Do you expect it to be fair, free from miss statements or lies.

what is wrong with the facts provided by DGMO and DG ISPR.

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## Patriot

blain2 said:


> Here is some back-peddling on the issue.
> 
> "U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid"
> U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid - CBS News
> 
> Not that things cannot be confused, but it seems there was significant communication between the higher headquarters on both sides while the action was ongoing. Yet despite that, the strikes by Apaches and the AC-130 were carried out.


Well they know they cannot provide any proof of Pakistani Troops firing the first shot hence blaming Taliban now!It was deliberate Operation IMHO and we may get to know the motive of this op maybe after a year or so?


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## blain2

VCheng said:


> The report comes out December 23rd.



The report that comes out on the 23rd will be the ISAF side of the story, without any input, verification or diverging views of the Pakistani side. Mark my words, when this report comes out, it would be aired by various Western news outlets as if the fountain of truth has opened up and no amount of Pakistani protestations over the veracity of the report and its claims would be accepted.

It would have been better had this investigation been conducted jointly.

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## PATRIOT6

"US can easily economically choke Pakistan to death and render our military machine ineffective."

all right now i understand that army has less capabilities to go eye to eye with usa
but what econimocs you are talking about man.
have u seen pakistan for the last 2 decades , things never get worst economically????
and if u care of economy why dont military cathes the ministers who are fulling swiss banks,
our nation is illerrate mostly and they dont know the right one , which one they choose

two wrongs never make right, as far as friendship with usa is concrened on the basis of economics 

its benificial for either politicians or else ISI

and average civilian has nothing to do with it , who bleeds everyday in pakistan ,

now do we still need foreign aids from united states????

I agree with u on some points like 
we have to stand on our feet but we wont make unless we try it , 

WE EARN IT 

I HOPE U UNDERSTAND


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## SQ8

aliabid said:


> *Do you expect it to be fair, free from miss statements or lies.*



Unless the issue in question is orphans in Ecuador.. I dont think so.

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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> The report that comes out on the 23rd will be the ISAF side of the story, without any input, verification or diverging views of the Pakistani side. Mark my words, when this report comes out, it would be aired by various Western news outlets as if the fountain of truth has opened up and no amount of Pakistani protestations over the veracity of the report and its claims would be accepted.
> 
> It would have been better that this investigation was conducted jointly.



Pakistan was invited but refused. Big blunder.

And ISPR needs to work HARD this time to propagate the Pakistani PoV.


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## Leviza

blain2 said:


> The report that comes out on the 23rd will be the ISAF side of the story, without any input, verification or diverging views of the Pakistani side. Mark my words, when this report comes out, it would be aired by various Western news outlets as if the fountain of truth has opened up and no amount of Pakistani protestations over the veracity of the report and its claims would be accepted.
> 
> It would have been better that this investigation was conducted jointly.



I totally agree with you..... they might say it was done by ISI


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## Cent4

blain2 said:


> It would have been better that this investigation was conducted jointly.



That would have meant that we are going to resolve the issues and agree on a point which saves NATO face but now we are trying to make our point by refusing to along with their pace. ]

I think we are better this way.... The only unknown factor in this whole situation is the MOTIVE. Which I believe PAK ARMY know thats why they are apparently so angry


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Pakistan was invited but refused. Big blunder.
> 
> And ISPR needs to work HARD this time to propagate the Pakistani PoV.



So you believe the NATO report more than the statements of DGMO and DG ISPR?

The statements of your own DG MO and DG ISPR, or are they not yours?

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## Leviza

VCheng said:


> Pakistan was invited but refused. Big blunder.
> 
> And ISPR needs to work HARD this time to propagate the Pakistani PoV.



Come on i say this is right to do ... we dont need to do any investigations, its just to gain time and say things you like...

we are 100% sure what happened, we dont have any sort of doubt in it ... hence we are not a part of this investigation.... we are not falling into yet another trap for same thing again n again... USA need to F Off from this region...


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## PATRIOT6

LeGenD said:


> . US can easily economically choke Pakistan to death and render our military machine ineffective.
> My 2 cents.


all right now i understand that army has less capabilities to go eye to eye with usa
but what econimocs you are talking about man.
have u seen pakistan for the last 2 decades , things never get worst economically????
and if u care of economy why dont military cathes the ministers who are fulling swiss banks,
our nation is illerrate mostly and they dont know the right one , which one they choose

two wrongs never make right, as far as friendship with usa is concrened on the basis of economics 

its benificial for either politicians or else ISI

and average civilian has nothing to do with it , who bleeds everyday in pakistan ,

now do we still need foreign aids from united states????

I agree with u on some points like 
we have to stand on our feet but we wont make unless we try it , 

WE EARN IT 

I HOPE U UNDERSTAND


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Pakistan was invited but refused. Big blunder.
> 
> .



Could you kindly provide me the link where that was said? I am finding it hard to find it at the moment.


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## wmdisinfo

We dont believe in Nato investigation we believe our own military and Intelligence.NATO GO TO HELL


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## Gin ka Pakistan

I know many will say its emotional or bad decision but if Pakistan will not respect its own people life then no will respect them in hundred years. in riots in UK ex Pakistanis got killed as no one care. 
In international forums every one is saying Pakistani get $$$$$ and every thing will be put under the carpet when people hot air be over and that's how the world sees Pakistanis.


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## LeGenD

PATRIOT6 said:


> "US can easily economically choke Pakistan to death and render our military machine ineffective."
> 
> all right now i understand that army has less capabilities to go eye to eye with usa
> but what econimocs you are talking about man.
> have u seen pakistan for the last 2 decades , things never get worst economically????
> and if u care of economy why dont military cathes the ministers who are fulling swiss banks,
> our nation is illerrate mostly and they dont know the right one , which one they choose
> 
> two wrongs never make right, as far as friendship with usa is concrened on the basis of economics
> 
> its benificial for either politicians or else ISI
> 
> and average civilian has nothing to do with it , who bleeds everyday in pakistan ,
> 
> now do we still need foreign aids from united states????
> 
> I agree with u on some points like
> we have to stand on our feet but we wont make unless we try it ,
> 
> WE EARN IT
> 
> I HOPE U UNDERSTAND


Brother, Pakistan is already economically not doing well. 

1. Business in the whole country has been badly hit by various factor. 

2. Industry is not working properly either because of power-outages and corruption. Just look at the case of Pakistan Steel Mills. Even governmental owned institutions are at loss (e.g. PIA, Railways etc....). Sports industry is also down the drain. And Cotton industry is controlled by local mafia.

3. Pakistan is lacking in the capabilities to extract natural resources and process them for creation of required materials that can bring in revenues.

4. Expenditure of War on Terror.

Now imagine if US ends all trade with Pakistan and imposes heavy sanctions and blockade then what will happen? Have we become self-sufficient by now? 

Open your eyes, the situation is vastly different in current times then it was during previous times. The cost of living is already too high in Pakistan. Things will get out of our hand in case of major hostilities with USA.


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## regular

BATMAN said:


> Decline who?


He is declining to his pplz within the media....to the NATO etc.....within his circles.....


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## clmeta

Very well said. But I wonder what was NATO going to gain by doing this? Pakistan's reaction is very expected and fair.
Is America out of its mind. After their pullout from Afghanistan, the country will sink further in chaos. Whatever the outcome, this region is going to take very long to stabilize.


PATRIOT6 said:


> "US can easily economically choke Pakistan to death and render our military machine ineffective."
> 
> all right now i understand that army has less capabilities to go eye to eye with usa
> but what econimocs you are talking about man.
> have u seen pakistan for the last 2 decades , things never get worst economically????
> and if u care of economy why dont military cathes the ministers who are fulling swiss banks,
> our nation is illerrate mostly and they dont know the right one , which one they choose
> 
> two wrongs never make right, as far as friendship with usa is concrened on the basis of economics
> 
> its benificial for either politicians or else ISI
> 
> and average civilian has nothing to do with it , who bleeds everyday in pakistan ,
> 
> now do we still need foreign aids from united states????
> 
> I agree with u on some points like
> we have to stand on our feet but we wont make unless we try it ,
> 
> WE EARN IT
> 
> I HOPE U UNDERSTAND


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## Imran Khan

Pakistan is waiting for a phone call from its god which not yet called . i think if obama is busy he can send SMS and pakistan will be in conference before even others arrive in conformance room

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## Abhishek_

just adding my two cents. Boycott will further isolate Pakistan, GOP/PA should go.


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## blain2

Patriot said:


> Well they know they cannot provide any proof of Pakistani Troops firing the first shot hence blaming Taliban now!It was deliberate Operation IMHO and we may get to know the motive of this op maybe after a year or so?



The motive could be that they made a mistake, but the evidence thus far alludes otherwise.

The more complicated motive, the one that I subscribe to, is that they launched the attack to provoke a response from our side, which in turn would have given them the excuse to carry out operations deeper into Pakistani territory.

The fact that the Pakistani side has decided not to react militarily, even if we did it would not gain us much aside from increased pressure, is the smart thing to do. People are starting to realize that ISAF wants the ability to engage inside of Pakistan in a repeat of what went on in Cambodia.

I am quoting M K Bhadrakumar's comments in an article yesterday or so:

"Washington may have seriously erred if the intention Friday night was to draw out the Pakistani military into a retaliatory mode and then to hit it with a sledgehammer and make it crawl on its knees pleading mercy. Things aren't going to work that way. Pakistan is going to give a "Persian" response."

It is pretty sad as to how the US has lost its way for tactical gains in Afghanistan by losing out on a fairly long term relationship with Pakistan going back many decades.

---------- Post added at 12:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> Pakistan was invited but refused. Big blunder.
> 
> And ISPR needs to work HARD this time to propagate the Pakistani PoV.



Pakistan refused based on the track record of the past investigations. No less than the most informed person in the Pakistan Army, i.e. DGMO, has made comments addressing this specific issue. That he is biased towards Pakistan is obviously a factor, however he was also privy to the reports from these investigations in the past and knows how blame was or was not attributed.

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## Jango

blain2 said:


> The motive could be that they made a mistake, but the evidence thus far alludes otherwise.
> 
> The more complicated motive, the one that I subscribe to, is that they launched the attack to provoke a response from our side, which in turn would have given them the excuse to carry out operations deeper into Pakistani territory.
> 
> The fact that the Pakistani side has decided not to react militarily, even if we did it would not gain us much aside from increased pressure, is the smart thing to do. People are starting to realize that ISAF wants the ability to engage inside of Pakistan in a repeat of what went on in Cambodia.
> 
> I am quoting M K Bhadrakumar's comments in an article yesterday or so:
> 
> "Washington may have seriously erred if the intention Friday night was to draw out the Pakistani military into a retaliatory mode and then to hit it with a sledgehammer and make it crawl on its knees pleading mercy. Things aren't going to work that way. Pakistan is going to give a "Persian" response."
> 
> It is pretty sad as to how the US has lost its way for tactical gains in Afghanistan by losing out on a fairly long term relationship with Pakistan going back many decades.



Good analysis blain2.

If that is the case, then smart move.


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## clmeta

Pakistan's government has shown a very smart response. I think this development will show the world what is the extant of US dependence on Pakistan. If America can manage without Pakistan using Northern route it will have to make compromises with Russia and Pakistan would lose all its leverage with US. If US can't manage without Pakistan, war on terror is over and Afghanistan is going to be more unstable than ever. Very complicated development for the region.


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## AstanoshKhan

2 hours of operation inside Pakistan's territory, and our Airforce was mum the whole time leaving the Jawans to be butchered by the crusaders. To hell with these F-16s and Jf-17s, if they can't even protect men of their own organization.

May they Rest In Peace, and may Allah SWT be the judge - the blood of those nation's sons, and the tears and sorrows of those families will not go in vein.

If no action of the same scale didn't taken, the demoralization among military personnel will lead this organization to an absolute disaster.

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## Jango

blain2 said:


> .....
> 
> Pakistan refused based on the track record of the past investigations. No less than the most informed person in the Pakistan Army, i.e. DGMO, has made comments addressing this specific issue.



The posture of the Pakistani side has been very different this time around.

Everybody is speaking that it was not a mistake, and saying of repercussions.

In previous incidents, all that was said was that it is a sad incident, inquiry will be launched, and we will look into the matter.

But now, statements are being given more openly, and when the DGMO says that, you know something is going on.


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## karan.1970

maverick1977 said:


> Most of the soldiers died during their sleep and left over who manned the guns were killed in due process.... ensuing combat between couple of alive soldiers who came to take down the chopper with 12.7mm guns were also killed. i love how indians are looking for a reason to find inconsistencies in pakistani story, forgetting that their masters gora decieved them again and again when they ruled the sub-continent. you are now slated a new "B" of west, wait and see what will happen to you. welcome to slavery 401.



Interesting how an off topic hissy fit gets thanked by moderators 

No disrespect intended buddy.. There are bound to be inconsistencies in both sides of the story till the time final version gets released, both by Pakistan and NATO.. I saw a post talking about eye witness accounts of survivors talking about the assault lasting 5-6 hours on one hand where as the ISPR version talks of 1-1.5 hours. Gen Aftabh akhtar talking about posts being 300 meters from the border as against 2.5 Km in another release and being on Afghan soil in a release from NATO.. The idea here is precisely to discuss these and try and understand what really happened. Dont just go and generalize your hate against Indians. BTW, the article quoted by Agno has been authored by a man of Indian origin who is lambasting NATO for the attack. But I guess that slipped your notice while you were going ballistic on Indians 

PS: Who was the old B of the West  ??


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## VelocuR

One of the Pakistani military officials says that the deaths of soldiers are the gravest indignity they can suffer. "What do we say to the men who have been fighting the militants in that tough area?" he asks, rhetorically. "How do we even show our faces to them?" Adopting a wounded tone, he further asks, "Who is our enemy, the militants or NATO?"


*China responds with ballistic missile exercises near Afghanistan!*

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_5608655_1.html


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## President Camacho

It is very important to hear all the accounts to ascertain the most plausible account of events, esp when we, as the public, are in the dark.

Here are some of the accounts:

Pakistan's version -

1. Maps were provided to the ISAF, so they must have known it was a military outpost.

2. The attack was unprovoked, and lasted for 2 hours.

3. The military men were killed in sleep (most of them at least).

4. PA HQ was alerted through the quarters in Peshawar, and they pleaded with the NATO commanders to stop the attack, but to no avail.

Now the statement of ISAF - 

1. The incident is highly regrettable, NATO sends out is condolences to the bereaved families of the martyred soldiers. 

2. Nothing can be officially said about the incident till the investigation report is out.


Now the account of injured soldiers who experienced the incident firsthand -

1. At about 11pm (3 hours prior to the attack), a light aircraft came from across the border, flies over the post and fires flares and returns.

Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - How is it that such an incident of aircraft coming in from across border and firing flares takes place, and all the troops are still asleep?

2. About half an hour later (not even midnight yet, and still full 2 and a half hours prior to the time of the attack) armed helicopters and light aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men.

Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - Firing begins at 11:30 PM, and soldiers are still asleep?

3. They remained in the area for about 5 to 6 hours. During this time, the helicopter kept firing at individual personnel at will.

Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - How is it, that the attack lasted 5-6 hours, the PA high command pleads with the NATO forces to stop the attack (throughout 5-6 hours, but to no avail - even if we say they pleaded with NATO forces at 2:30 PM, still they had enough time to send in reinforcements.), and yet does not send in any reinforcements or fighter jets, that shouldn't take more than 30 mins to reach the point of contention?


----------------

What I do (personally) gather from all the accounts and official statements here is that that was a terrible communication gap between the outpost, and the Army headquarters, with the involvement of a communication node at Peshawar. Most probably, it was a case of mistaken identity, and the NATO forces acted in an overzealous manner. The actual bombarding of the outpost lasted no more than a few minutes - provided, the Pakistani Army communicated its pleas to stop the attack right away

Anyhow, the accounts of all the parties involved are still very questionable and leave out many holes yet to be filled to appear as clean as truth. However, I would, for one, believe the accounts of the injured soldier more than the statements of NATO or PA spokesmen.

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## Patriot

Abhishek_ said:


> just adding my two cents. Boycott will further isolate Pakistan, GOP/PA should go.


Your Opinion does not matter.They can host talks and all that crap but what matters is situation on the ground.


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## Emmie

Investigation report cannot be pellucid if US is to investigate the incident! Its like asking a cat to safeguard milk.

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## r3alist

Abhishek_ said:


> just adding my two cents. Boycott will further isolate Pakistan, GOP/PA should go.




nato cannot indefinitely isolate pakistan.

right now nato needs to remove any ammunition for pakistan to continue this stance, this means patching up with pakistan.

americans can be pragmatic when they need to, so they will look to mend this, BUT they have also laid the groundwork to marginalize pakistan, this is their intention, pakistan cannot change that, this seems to be the path.

therefore pakistan should look to hold their ground if nato have already decided to discard and demonise pakistan, because pakistan for this brief moment has the upper ground and can gain some concessions.


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## blain2

clmeta said:


> Pakistan's government has shown a very smart response. I think this development will show the world what is the extant of US dependence on Pakistan. If America can manage without Pakistan using Northern route it will have to make compromises with Russia and Pakistan would lose all its leverage with US. If US can't manage without Pakistan, war on terror is over and Afghanistan is going to be more unstable than ever. Very complicated development for the region.



Clmeta,

The bottom line is that what you say in terms of Pakistan losing leverage over time is correct. However just how much longer do you think the Russians or the Chinese will tolerate a US military presence right in their backyards?

Do realize that after almost 10 years, the countries surrounding Afghanistan are tired of the unwanted guest who continues to impose its own and impacting the security of the surrounding countries.

Pakistan, Russia and China, through the SCO forum, are starting to see a convergence of views where they feel that the US presence in the region will cause more problems. The recent 2024 plan has ticked off Russians and Chinese alike. If that does not make for instability and complexity, then I don't know what else does.

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## Cent4

AstanoshKhan said:


> 2 hours of operation inside Pakistan's territory, and our Airforce was mum the whole time leaving the Jawans to be butchered by the crusaders. To hell with these F-16s and Jf-17s, if they can't even protect men of their own organization.
> 
> May they Rest In Peace, and may Allah SWT be the judge - the blood of those nation's sons, and the tears and sorrows of those families will not go in vein.
> 
> If no action of the same scale didn't taken, the demoralization among military personnel will lead this organization to an absolute disaster.



Contacts were being made at high level with NATO to stop the operation as we know I think Army deliberately didnot involve the PAF.


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## Jango

President Camacho said:


> It is very important to hear all the accounts to ascertain the most plausible account of events, esp when we, as the public, are in the dark.
> 
> Here are some of the accounts:
> 
> Pakistan's version -
> 
> 1. Maps were provided to the ISAF, so they must have known it was a military outpost.
> 
> 2. The attack was unprovoked, and lasted for 2 hours.
> 
> 3. The military men were killed in sleep (most of them at least).
> 
> 4. PA HQ was alerted through the quarters in Peshawar, and they pleaded with the NATO commanders to stop the attack, but to no avail.
> 
> Now the statement of ISAF -
> 
> 1. The incident is highly regrettable, NATO sends out is condolences to the bereaved families of the martyred soldiers.
> 
> 2. Nothing can be officially said about the incident till the investigation report is out.
> 
> 
> Now the account of injured soldiers who experienced the incident firsthand -
> 
> 1. At about 11pm (3 hours prior to the attack), a light aircraft came from across the border, flies over the post and fires flares and returns.
> 
> Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - How is it that such an incident of aircraft coming in from across border and firing flares takes place, and all the troops are still asleep?
> 
> 2. About half an hour later (not even midnight yet, and still full 2 and a half hours prior to the time of the attack) armed helicopters and light aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men.
> 
> Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - Firing begins at 11:30 PM, and soldiers are still asleep?
> 
> 3. They remained in the area for about 5 to 6 hours. During this time, the helicopter kept firing at individual personnel at will.
> 
> Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - How is it, that the attack lasted 5-6 hours, the PA high command pleads with the NATO forces to stop the attack (throughout 5-6 hours?), and yet does not send in any reinforcements or fighter jets, that shouldn't take more than 30 mins to reach the point of contention?
> 
> 
> ----------------
> 
> What I do (personally) gather from all the accounts and official statements here is that that was a terrible communication gap between the outpost, and the Army headquarters, with the involvement of a communication node at Peshawar. Most probably, it was a case of mistaken identity, the NATO forces acting in an overzealous manner, and the actually bombarding of the outpost lasting no more than a few minutes - provided the Pakistani Army communicated its pleas to stop the attack right away.
> 
> Anyhow, the accounts of all the parties involved are still very questionable and leave out many holes yet to be filled to appear as clean as truth. However, I would, for one, believe the accounts of the injured soldier more than the statements of NATO or PA spokesmen.



Where did you get the soldiers account from? Never seen or heard anything like that till now.

The op , as said by everybody. lasted for 2-5 hours. It was unprovoked, most soldiers were sleeping. According to one injured soldier, there were 4 helis. Which came and started firing instantly, according to his interview video.


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## PATRIOT6

LeGenD said:


> Brother, Pakistan is already economically not doing well.
> 
> 4. Expenditure of War on Terror.


 expenditure on war against terror ?? isnt it granted by usa ???

I KNOW things are going worst thats what i said above,
but the point is will usa will gonna change our economical stats????
hnh, the damage is in front of u
our president kept saying that no more attacks after that quetta operation event, 
no more compromise and same day in news there ws a drone attck , same day,
anyhow i know , 

if u wanna see and wait for pakistan economics to be better and then defend the country 
the day will never come and next if u will succeed your opponents will be 5 times more stronger than now
and things in past ?????
will go more worst for pakistan as any new gov tell the previous one bankrupt pakistan , so again economics fall down.

i know army needs more power but in their greed they are spoiling the nation feelings and now after us connections ppl dont love and proud of soldiers than in 1965
that makes a differences.

---------- Post added at 08:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ----------

i mean abbotabad operation above


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## Patriot

AstanoshKhan said:


> 2 hours of operation inside Pakistan's territory, and our Airforce was mum the whole time leaving the Jawans to be butchered by the crusaders. To hell with these F-16s and Jf-17s, if they can't even protect men of their own organization.
> 
> May they Rest In Peace, and may Allah SWT be the judge - the blood of those nation's sons, and the tears and sorrows of those families will not go in vein.
> 
> If no action of the same scale didn't taken, the demoralization among military personnel will lead this organization to an absolute disaster.


I bet every single pilot would be willing to go out there and fight for the country even if they know they would face heavy casualties.Our Leaders are cowards.If such attacks happen again in future and our leaders don't take any taken i suspect we might face a rebellion.


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## 53fd

Abhishek_ said:


> just adding my two cents. Boycott will further isolate Pakistan, GOP/PA should go.



It is not an international conference like the UN where Pakistan can raise its issues, it is a conference about Afghanistan & its security. Pakistan will go to conferences where it can make its voice on its issues heard. Pakistan was the most important country in the Bonn conference, & without Pakistan, the Bonn Conference will be like Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark.

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## F.O.X

Stealth said:


> *LANAT is koom pe begerat kom begerat FAUJI Hukmaran begerat govt...
> 
> RUSSIA Threatening China threatening Iran threatening Turkey Threatening ... and country jiskay saath huwa hey KEEP QUIET begerat FAUJI HUKMARAN begerat kay bachay!*



If Only you could use this anger towards something constructive that will help Pakistan , When you accuse others Look at yourself first what have you done for this country . it is way to easy to sit in front of computer and criticize others , when you are in the chair & have to make decisions that will effect millions of lives you cannot play into enemy hands by acting radically .

your have more then 2000 posts & yet i am unable to see any maturity in this post of yours .

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## karan.1970

bilalhaider said:


> It is not an international conference like the UN where Pakistan can raise its issues, it is a conference about Afghanistan & its security. Pakistan will go to conferences where it can make its voice on its issues heard. Pakistan was the most important country in the Bonn conference, & without Pakistan, the Bonn Conference will be like Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark.



I thought in a conference about Afghanistan, Afghanistan would be the most important country.


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## blain2

President Camacho said:


> It is very important to hear all the accounts to ascertain the most plausible account of events, esp when we, as the public, are in the dark.
> 
> Here are some of the accounts:
> 
> Pakistan's version -
> 
> 1. Maps were provided to the ISAF, so they must have known it was a military outpost.
> 
> 2. The attack was unprovoked, and lasted for 2 hours.
> 
> 3. The military men were killed in sleep (most of them at least).
> 
> 4. PA HQ was alerted through the quarters in Peshawar, and they pleaded with the NATO commanders to stop the attack, but to no avail.
> 
> Now the statement of ISAF -
> 
> 1. The incident is highly regrettable, NATO sends out is condolences to the bereaved families of the martyred soldiers.
> 
> 2. Nothing can be officially said about the incident till the investigation report is out.
> 
> 
> Now the account of injured soldiers who experienced the incident firsthand -
> 
> 1. At about 11pm (3 hours prior to the attack), a light aircraft came from across the border, flies over the post and fires flares and returns.
> 
> Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - How is it that such an incident of aircraft coming in from across border and firing flares takes place, and all the troops are still asleep?
> 
> 2. About half an hour later (not even midnight yet, and still full 2 and a half hours prior to the time of the attack) armed helicopters and light aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men.
> 
> Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - Firing begins at 11:30 PM, and soldiers are still asleep?
> 
> 3. They remained in the area for about 5 to 6 hours. During this time, the helicopter kept firing at individual personnel at will.
> 
> Cross checking with Pakistan's official version - How is it, that the attack lasted 5-6 hours, the PA high command pleads with the NATO forces to stop the attack (throughout 5-6 hours, but to no avail - even if we say they pleaded with NATO forces at 2:30 PM, still they had enough time to send in reinforcements.), and yet does not send in any reinforcements or fighter jets, that shouldn't take more than 30 mins to reach the point of contention?
> 
> 
> ----------------
> 
> What I do (personally) gather from all the accounts and official statements here is that that was a terrible communication gap between the outpost, and the Army headquarters, with the involvement of a communication node at Peshawar. Most probably, it was a case of mistaken identity, the NATO forces acting in an overzealous manner, and the actually bombarding of the outpost lasting no more than a few minutes - provided the Pakistani Army communicated its pleas to stop the attack right away.
> 
> Anyhow, the accounts of all the parties involved are still very questionable and leave out many holes yet to be filled to appear as clean as truth. However, I would, for one, believe the accounts of the injured soldier more than the statements of NATO or PA spokesmen.



Two posts were hit. Nobody knows how many troops were asleep initially when the posts were engaged by the helis. So lets not confuse minor pieces of information to try to come up with objections to the Pakistani narrative.

Some troops were obviously hit when they were asleep. Others who stood guard, while others in the platoon deployed rested, engaged the helis. They were engaged by the helis and then the second post engaged the heli with their lone HMG and they too were engaged by the Apaches and AC-130.

Also, once an observation aircraft comes across, the entire post does not wake up. There are duties to be performed round the clock on the position and unless the position is being attacked, the ones resting probably did not come out to check on what the observation aircraft/UAV etc. was up to as in that area, such flights are quite common.

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## clmeta

I think America needs a sensible and smart President. After Bush, Obama has been another disaster. Their foreign policy has been inconsistent on all fronts and economy in doldrums. Iran, Russia, China, Pakistan, Middle East . They are faltering everywhere.
The only reason they have managed progress with India is that India doesn't have any conflicting interests with them so far. I'll tell you, one major area of dispute and their relations will break with India too. They are now cozying up with Myanmar.


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## karan.1970

blain2 said:


> .....check on what the observation aircraft/UAV etc. was up to as in that area, such flights are quite common.



with flare drops ??


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## Ali.009

Pakistan should attend but walk out after recording a fierce protest during the conference. That should be much more effective!

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------




Imran Khan said:


> Pakistan is waiting for a phone call from its god which not yet called . i think if obama is busy he can send SMS and pakistan will be in conference before even others arrive in conformance room



When will you stop your same old over-repeated illogical bull shyte? Your starting to bore everyone around this forum. *Yawns*


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## Abhishek_

bilalhaider said:


> It is not an international conference like the UN where Pakistan can raise its issues, it is a conference about Afghanistan & its security. Pakistan will go to conferences where it can make its voice on its issues heard. Pakistan was the most important country in the Bonn conference, & without Pakistan, the Bonn Conference will be like Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark.



I still feel PK needs to stand its ground, and make its case at the Bonn Conf. 
Lets see if the current strategy yields the desired results.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

a good, sound decision by Pakistan, in light of the hostile and unforgivable act committed against 24 jawans whose only crime was defending themself after being woken up to hostile aircraft in a ''2 hour accidental engagement against blues''


the supply route should remain shut until further notice; any NATO tanker seen attempting to cross should be fired upon.... its contents seized 

these conferences are useless for now; no further cooperation until this issue is resolved and in the broader scheme of things --until the anti-Pakistan activity is immediately ended.


Army Air defence should also be ordered to increase presence along the border; Afghan informants found anywhere near the border should be detained.

all lines of communication with NATO/ISAF/afghan 'security forces' should be indefinitely suspended

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## Jango

Patriot said:


> I bet every single pilot would be willing to go out there and fight for the country even if they know they would face heavy casualties.Our Leaders are cowards.If such attacks happen again in future and our leaders don't take any taken i suspect we might face a rebellion.



Would you have been ready for the repercussion?

i.e actions like these on a larger scale, and who knows, possibly a much bigger war scale? Although jets should have been deployed to ward off the intruding helis, and possibly shoot them if fired upon still.


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## President Camacho

nuclearpak said:


> Where did you get the soldiers account from? Never seen or heard anything like that till now.
> 
> The op , as said by everybody. lasted for 2-5 hours. It was unprovoked, most soldiers were sleeping. According to one injured soldier, there were 4 helis. Which came and started firing instantly, according to his interview video.





> Todays papers carry the news that the Nato Chief has said that the attack on Pakistani soldiers was un-intentional. Very generous of him! Yesterday, I talked to Lt Col Shahid Jan from Peshawar. He had just visited CMH Peshawar to meet the wounded in Salah Post by the US/Nato raid on night of 26 November. This is what he told me.
> There were 14 wounded lying in the surgical ward suffering a variety of wounds. He talked to everyone of them and asked them what had happened. The crux of the account of the soldiers and officers was that at about 11pm on 26th Nov a light aircraft came from across the border, flew over the post and fired flares and returned. About half an hour later armed helicopters and light aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men. They remained in the area for about 5 to 6 hours. During this time, the helicopter kept firing at individual personnel at will. The post had only one 12.7 anti-aircraft gun which opened fire. The gunner was shot. The major on the post took up the gun and began firing at the helicopters. He was fired at again. While changing position he was hit by a rocket or missile. His body was blasted to pieces. Only his name-plate was found. Every one of the men on the post was killed or wounded. They seemed to be in no hurry and going after each individual separately. Having finished the entire post, they went back without any casualty on their part.
> And the Nato Chief has the effrontery to say that it was un-intentional.
> Now my question is, if for 5 to 6 hours this enemy action was taking place and our ground troops were under such deliberate enemy fire, where was the Armys reaction and where was the PAF during all this time? I cannot believe that the Corps HQ or the PAF Northern Command in Peshawar did not know what was going on, on the front. If so, both should be disbanded for deliberate incompetence.
> 
> AYAZ AHMAD,
> Rawalpindi, November 28.



The aforesaid report used to be here - http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-n...f-lies-by-Nato

No more... wonder why


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## Jango

karan.1970 said:


> with flare drops ??



Yeah so. Flares are used to illuminate the ground.


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## karan.1970

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah so. Flares are used to illuminate the ground.



You mean NATO planes regularly drop flares on Pakistani checkposts in the Af - Pak border areas


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## F.O.X

Imran Khan said:


> Pakistan is waiting for a phone call from its god which not yet called . i think if obama is busy he can send SMS and pakistan will be in conference before even others arrive in conformance room



The one word for you Sir is , Grow Up .

This irrational , Illogical thinking of yours & people like you is what brought us here , We dont think we dont even try to find out the truth we just believe what others say or what the person we trust say to us .

You for your entertainment want a confrontation that will result in loss of more innocent lives, more people will dies & it will not be of US or NATO it will be either Pakistanis or Afghans , You want to send US a strong message Yes that is a very good thing , BUT you have to make yourself strong first.

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## clmeta

blain2,
I'm not defending US. Of course they have made a mess of a war which had total international support 10 years back.
If they think Pakistan has led them down, they are reacting very late. Its mostly over for all parties. No one is going to get a friendly Afghanistan, not even Afghan people. Agreed, Russia and China are pissed of with US but that's because US keeps looking to further its own interests and then expects everyone to back their war on terror. Even Indians are now upset with America's flip flop policy in Afghanistan. Sometimes they talk to Taliban, sometimes no talk to Taliban. Sometimes Karzai is good, other times he is bad. At a time of global economic crisis, why is america trying to take on every country by extending its bases and making missile shields?
As far as instability goes I can clearly see Afghanistan going back to where it was after Soviet's had left. All the neighbours will start propping up their proxy regimes. What do you think is gonna happen?


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## blain2

karan.1970 said:


> with flare drops ??



What kind of flares? The flares could have been fired off by the aircraft to ensure that SAMs are not engaged. This too is a fairly common practice employed by the ISAF as well as the PAF in that region.

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## 53fd

Abhishek_ said:


> I still feel PK needs to stand its ground, and *make its case* at the Bonn Conf.
> Lets see if the current strategy yields the desired results.



The Bonn Conference is not the conference where Pakistan can make its case.


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## Devil Soul

there are reports that usa have refused to apologize


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## karan.1970

blain2 said:


> What kind of flares? The flares could have been fired off by the aircraft to ensure that SAMs are not engaged. This too is a fairly common practice employed by the ISAF as well as the PAF in that region.





> The crux of the account of the soldiers and officers was that at about 11pm on 26th Nov a light aircraft came from across the border, flew over the post and fired flares and returned. About half an hour later armed helicopters and light aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men. They remained in the area for about 5 to 6 hours



Guess these were ground illumination flares and not CM flares


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## Jango

President Camacho said:


> The aforesaid report used to be here - http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-n...f-lies-by-Nato
> 
> No more... wonder why



well, could be a multitude of reasons.

Flares are used for illumination. At first they could have thought it was their own forces. Such things are not uncommon there. And when the helis started firing at them, they returned fire. Nothing really awkward there.

Although the response by PAF might be a bit in question.

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## blain2

clmeta said:


> blain2,
> I'm not defending US. Of course they have made a mess of a war which had total international support 10 years back.
> If they think Pakistan has led them down, they are reacting very late. Its mostly over for all parties. No one is going to get a friendly Afghanistan, not even Afghan people. Agreed, Russia and China are pissed of with US but that's because US keeps looking to further its own interests and then expects everyone to back their war on terror. Even Indians are now upset with America's flip flop policy in Afghanistan. Sometimes they talk to Taliban, sometimes no talk to Taliban. Sometimes Karzai is good, other times he is bad. At a time of global economic crisis, why is america trying to take on every country by extending its bases and making missile shields?
> As far as instability goes I can clearly see Afghanistan going back to where it was after Soviet's had left. All the neighbours will start propping up their proxy regimes. What do you think is gonna happen?



What is going to happen is exactly what none of us wants, including those who have diverging views than the ISAF.

This place will breed more instability and infighting for at least another decade leaving a mess for all countries involved.

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## karan.1970

Devil Soul said:


> there are reports that usa have refused to apologize



US military refuses to apologize over deadly Pakistan airstrike | The News Tribe


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## Abu Zolfiqar

luckyyy said:


> i think pakistan is not invited..



Karzai urges Pakistan to reconsider Bonn boycott | World | DAWN.COM

Merkel &#8216;very sorry&#8217; about Pakistan boycott of Afghan meet | World | DAWN.COM

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## Emmie

President Camacho said:


> The aforesaid report used to be here - http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-n...f-lies-by-Nato
> 
> No more... wonder why



Lt Col Shahid Jan is no man in ISPR... Obviously this is not the version of ISPR...Conclusions out of accounts (not direct) are meaningless.

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## F.O.X

Pakistan is the main source for Bringing Taliban & other sources in Afg to the table , and if Pakistan has boycotted it you can be assured that those who were to convinced to attend by Pakistan will not be interested in it anymore. 

Yes the conference will take place , But will it produce any results NO it will not , you can call whole world to this conference , if two main parties are not interested it will be just a waste to time .


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## Jango

karan.1970 said:


> You mean NATO planes regularly drop flares on Pakistani checkposts in the Af - Pak border areas



I meant the presence of planes in that area.

You cannot see at night whether it is a NATO plane or PA plane at night can you , with the naked eye?

PA planes also drop flares. I think it was at the moment when firing started when things got a little heated.


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## AstanoshKhan

Patriot said:


> I bet every single pilot would be willing to go out there and fight for the country even if they know they would face heavy casualties.Our Leaders are cowards.If such attacks happen again in future and our leaders don't take any taken i suspect we might face a rebellion.



Lions being ruled by Lambs/Swines.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Its on record that one US senator said "For that much reward money Pakistanis can sell their mothers too" 

I know many will say its emotional or bad decision but if Pakistan will not respect its own people life then no will respect them in hundred years. in riots in UK ex Pakistanis got killed as no one care.
In international forums every one is saying Pakistani get $$$$$ and every thing will be put under the carpet when people hot air be over and that's how the world sees Pakistanis.


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## blain2

karan.1970 said:


> Guess these were ground illumination flares and not CM flares



Aircraft typically don't fire off ground illumination flares. They usually use the counter measure flares but at night time even these light up the ground pretty good as they fall down. For ground illumination, all sides use variants of Very.

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## President Camacho

blain2 said:


> Two posts were hit. Nobody knows how many troops were asleep initially when the posts were engaged by the helis. So lets not confuse minor pieces of information to try to come up with objections to the Pakistani narrative.
> 
> Some troops were obviously hit when they were asleep. Others who stood guard, while others in the platoon deployed rested, engaged the helis. They were engaged by the helis and then the second post engaged the heli with their lone HMG and they too were engaged by the Apaches and AC-130.
> 
> Also, once an observation aircraft comes across, the entire post does not wake up. There are duties to be performed round the clock on the position and unless the position is being attacked, the ones resting probably did not come out to check on what the observation aircraft/UAV etc. was up to as in that area, such flights are quite common.



See Blain2, my intention is not to to split the straws here.

I am trying to point out that things are still in the dark. Everything, every detail, every single piece of information that could help define the degree of criminality int his case, is not known to us yet. So, for the better judgement, we should reserve our emotions and prejudice until all the accounts appear clear and coherent.

The fact is still there, and no one can deny it, that NATO attacked a (two, as you say) Pakistani Army post within Pakistan's borders, resulting in killing of over 2 dozen troops, including officers. That is a fact, and time now is to find the reasons behind such a fiasco on NATO's part. 

Giving out judgmental statements while keeping nothing but only the results of the actions in mind, and not the processes or intent that led to the consequence, is not right.

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## clmeta

What exactly is us upto? have they lost their minds or do they have big hidden plans? so ar america is looking stupid here.


Devil Soul said:


> there are reports that usa have refused to apologize


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## PATRIOT6

clmeta said:


> What exactly is us upto? have they lost their minds or do they have big hidden plans? so ar america is looking stupid here.



Still much more to watch , if forces kept silent,


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## AstanoshKhan

nuclearpak said:


> Would you have been ready for the repercussion?
> 
> i.e actions like these on a larger scale, and who knows, possibly a much bigger war scale? Although jets should have been deployed to ward off the intruding helis, and possibly shoot them if fired upon still.



Repercussion?

What kind of mindset is that? they come and kills you, and you're worried about the repercussions. If we were to worry about the repercussions, why do we have this military in first place?

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## clmeta

You mean Pakistani forces? What do you want them to do? Further escalation is going to be a boon to TTP and Taliban. By the way, does vacating the Shamsi base mean an end to drones in FATA? TTP will have to invent a new reason to spread terrorism then.


PATRIOT6 said:


> Still much more to watch , if forces kept silent,


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## blain2

President Camacho said:


> See Blain2, my intention is not to to split the straws here.
> 
> I am trying to point out that things are still in the dark. Everything, every detail, every single piece of information that could help define the degree of criminality int his case, is not known to us yet. So, for the better judgement, we should reserve our emotions and prejudice until all the accounts appear clear and coherent.
> 
> The fact is still there, and no one can deny it, that NATO attacked a (two, as you say) Pakistani Army post within Pakistan's borders, resulting in killing of over 2 dozen troops, including officers. That is a fact, and time now is to find the reasons behind such a fiasco on NATO's part.
> 
> Giving out judgmental statements while keeping nothing but only the results of the actions in mind, and not the processes or intent that led to the consequence, is not right.



Agreed, but simply making a point that you should not discount the Pakistani narrative over silly tidbits about men continuing to sleep etc. during the firefight.

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## Jango

AstanoshKhan said:


> Repercussion?
> 
> What kind of mindset is that? they come and kills you, and you're worried about the repercussions. If we were to worry about the repercussions, why do we have this military in first place?



did you read the second paragraph?

But from now on, I think, shoot on sight orders should be given, unless we shoot one down, they won't rest easily.

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## VCheng

President Camacho said:


> See Blain2, my intention is not to to split the straws here.
> 
> *I am trying to point out that things are still in the dark. Everything, every detail, every single piece of information that could help define the degree of criminality int his case, is not known to us yet. So, for the better judgement, we should reserve our emotions and prejudice until all the accounts appear clear and coherent.
> 
> The fact is still there, and no one can deny it, that NATO attacked a (two, as you say) Pakistani Army post within Pakistan's borders, resulting in killing of over 2 dozen troops, including officers. That is a fact, and time now is to find the reasons behind such a fiasco on NATO's part.
> 
> Giving out judgmental statements while keeping nothing but only the results of the actions in mind, and not the processes or intent that led to the consequence, is not right*.



This great post deserves to be quoted in BOLD.

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## regular

AstanoshKhan said:


> 2 hours of operation inside Pakistan's territory, and our Airforce was mum the whole time leaving the Jawans to be butchered by the crusaders. To hell with these F-16s and Jf-17s, if they can't even protect men of their own organization.
> 
> May they Rest In Peace, and may Allah SWT be the judge - the blood of those nation's sons, and the tears and sorrows of those families will not go in vein.
> 
> If no action of the same scale didn't taken, the demoralization among military personnel will lead this organization to an absolute disaster.


Iam feeling very sorry for Maj. Mujahid who stood firm on the ground running the 12.7mm machine gun while the gunner got shaheed earlier by the helicopter attack... Eventually his body was torn to pieces and scattered everywhere when a missile struck him later...His body was not even found except his name plate........Never seen such a courage from an Army officer before......A real hero of the nation.The story of his bravery was revealed later by his injured fellow soldiers in the hospital ....Allah may give him his greatest reward in Jannah and to everybody attained shahadah with him....Ameen........

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## Gin ka Pakistan

What happened to the hotline and next time if a post comes under fire should they surrender as the nation will not back them as?


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## LeGenD

PATRIOT6 said:


> expenditure on war against terror ?? isnt it granted by usa ???


To some extent in current times.



PATRIOT6 said:


> I KNOW things are going worst thats what i said above,
> but the point is will usa will gonna change our economical stats????
> hnh, the damage is in front of u
> our president kept saying that no more attacks after that quetta operation event,
> no more compromise and same day in news there ws a drone attck , same day,
> anyhow i know ,
> 
> if u wanna see and wait for pakistan economics to be better and then defend the country
> the day will never come and next if u will succeed your opponents will be 5 times more stronger than now
> and things in past ?????
> will go more worst for pakistan as any new gov tell the previous one bankrupt pakistan , so again economics fall down.
> 
> i know army needs more power but in their greed they are spoiling the nation feelings and now after us connections ppl dont love and proud of soldiers than in 1965
> that makes a differences.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ----------
> 
> i mean abbotabad operation above


Here is the economics:


180 million people and numbers increasing. 
Shortage of jobs. 
Double-Digit inflation.
Cost of Living increasing rapidly.
Gap between rich and poor increasing.
Industry not working properly.
Impact of War on Terror.
Corruption.

Now imagine if US imposes heavy sanctions, enforces blockade in Arabian Sea, and ends all trade with Pakistan (its allies will do the same too), what will be the consequences of all this?

Pakistan will sink very fast and become another Afghanistan. 

Do we want this? 

There is a limit of everything. Currently we are not in the position to stand up to this new threat. Look around you - the covert war of US inside Pakistan has been going on for several years now. Thousands are dead because of it. 

What can our military do at maximum in current circumstances? Fight for some days and when the reserves run out, then what?

We need to stand on our feet first if we want our nation to not be treated like a banana republic. Better to be prepared then sorry.


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## President Camacho

blain2 said:


> Agreed, but simply making a point that you should not discount the Pakistani narrative over silly tidbits about men continuing to sleep etc. during the firefight.



Oh no Blain2, they are anything but *silly*! The sleeping part is a very important piece of information.

No tidbits there!

If it were the 80's or even the 90's, no mode of communication like CableTV in every house, internet on every phone. Then we wouldn't witness such eruption of public sentiments, and the Army/Gov taking notice of such sentiments.

The sleeping part is not to tell the NATO what a dirty criminal they are. On the fronts, who cares who is sleeping and who is not? The sleeping part is for public consumption! It makes people highly emotional. 

Let us say it was proper confrontation, and they all died fighting. The rage among the people would be, somewhat, replaced by pride.

But the revered soldiers getting caught unawares while they were resting makes people more vengeful. Pakistani Army is holding a good leverage to show the Americans that look, you committed a pretty big mistake there, now you gotta compensate for it.

To understand the value of soldiers killed in sleep, consider this - What if the soldiers were attacked, while they had their eyes closed, reading Namaz? That would go over the top, the parked tankers in Peshawar, wouldn't be parked anymore. Don't you think?

The sleeping part carries a great significant here, and that is why it has been emphasized upon by the ISPR.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Most analysts were already looking at the talks as meaningless, especially after the ones in Turkey, which were supposed to have acted as a 'launch pad' for the policies that would have been agreed upon in Bonn.
> 
> I know some people are concerned about Pakistan 'losing a voice' at the conference and therefore in the 'end game', but the 'voice' that really matters is not going to be determined at the conference, but between the major players in Afghanistan.



what ''good'' have these conferences brought us for God's sakes.....all talk only. 

what cake can Pakistan claim here when we're having an increasingly hostile soil (Afghanistan) in which anti-Pakistan activity flourishes unabated; where drugs weapons and smuggled goods are making their way across; when little has been done by any of the attendees of this ''bonn-fire'' to pocket some of the expense and responsibilty for 4 million Afghan refugees; where a vicious and intentional smear campaign in the media flourishes --spreading lies, half truths, misinformation that isn't even corroborated or double-checked from our side....

as per DGMO Maj. Gen. Nadeem sahib ''No information regarding inquiry of [the previous 2008 or 2010 attacks] was shared or provided to us despite our repeated requests and when provided, it was inaccurate and incomplete&#8221; (Standard procedures violated in unprovoked Nato strike: DGMO | Pakistan | DAWN.COM)

14 troops martyred, 13 injured in those previous attacks --- and yet no closure from that! 


this is absolutely unacceptable and I think patience of not just military but also the people has worn out completely....


for that reason, all cooperation should be indefinitely suspended


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Good economy or bad economy , only 1% benefited from WOT so who care what isolation will bring , poor is worst now then 90s isolation


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## VCheng

President Camacho said:


> Oh no Blain2, they are anything but *silly*! The sleeping part is a very important piece of information.
> 
> No tidbits there!
> 
> If it were the 80's or even the 90's, no mode of communication like CableTV in every house, internet on every phone. Then we wouldn't witness such eruption of public sentiments, and the Army/Gov taking notice of such sentiments.
> 
> The sleeping part is not to tell the NATO what a dirty criminal they are. On the fronts, who cares who is sleeping and who is not? The sleeping part is for public consumption! It makes people highly emotional.
> 
> Let us say it was proper confrontation, and they all died fighting. The rage among the people would be, somewhat, replaced by pride.
> 
> But the revered soldiers getting caught unawares while they were resting makes people more vengeful. Pakistani Army is holding a good leverage to show the Americans that look, you committed a pretty big mistake there, now you gotta compensate for it.
> 
> To understand the value of soldiers killed in sleep, consider this - What if the soldiers were attacked, while they had their eyes closed, reading Namaz? That would go over the top, the parked tankers in Peshawar, wouldn't be parked anymore. Don't you think?
> 
> The sleeping part carries a great significant here, and that is why it has been emphasized upon by the ISPR.



Spot on!

Add pics of a baby girl too for good measure, and it is evident that a psyops is in progress (from both sides).


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## La ResistanceZ

*RAWALPINDI: International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) carried out the cross-border attack on purpose and there are no expectations of any results coming from the inquiry.*
The statements were made at a media briefing by Chief of General Staff Lieutenant General Waheed Arshad and Director General (DG) Military Operations General Ashfaq on Tuesday.
They said that currently the rethinking of military relations with the United States was underway and the final decision would be taken by Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani.
They said the inquiries into the June 2008, September 2010 and July 2011 incidents had no results either.
There are four Pakistan and Isaf Afghanistan joint coordination centres, and the attack took place despite procedures being in place, they said.
They said there had been no violation by Pakistan on the Mohmand Agency border. Nato and Isaf were aware of the border check posts in the area and had fired on them from 12:05am to 2:15am.
The Pakistani officer at the Tactical Operation Centre in Afghanistan had been misinformed, they said, adding that an American sergeant had told him that a Pakistan check post had fired on Special Forces in the border area and had changed his statement after seven minutes saying the fire had come from a different check post.
They said Volcano was the first check post that was attacked and communication had been cut off right after. Soldiers at the Boulder check post fired 26 air bursts but did not go after the helicopters as the situation could have gotten bad.
Company Commander, Major Mujahid was killed when he was going to Boulder check post, they said.

NATO, ISAF carried out attack on purpose: Pakistan Army  The Express Tribune

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## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what ''good'' have these conferences brought us for God's sakes.....all talk only.
> 
> what cake can Pakistan claim here when we're having an increasingly hostile soil (Afghanistan) in which anti-Pakistan activity flourishes unabated; where drugs weapons and smuggled goods are making their way across; when little has been done by any of the attendees of this ''bonn-fire'' to pocket some of the expense and responsibilty for 4 million Afghan refugees; where a vicious and intentional smear campaign in the media flourishes --spreading lies, half truths, misinformation that isn't even corroborated or double-checked from our side....
> 
> as per DGMO Maj. Gen. Nadeem sahib ''No information regarding inquiry of [the previous 2008 or 2010 attacks] was shared or provided to us despite our repeated requests and when provided, it was inaccurate and incomplete&#8221; (Standard procedures violated in unprovoked Nato strike: DGMO | Pakistan | DAWN.COM)
> 
> 14 troops martyred, 13 injured in those previous attacks --- and yet no closure from that!
> 
> 
> this is absolutely unacceptable and I think patience of not just military but also the people has worn out completely....
> 
> 
> for that reason, all cooperation should be indefinitely suspended



These past incidents,as well as the present one, only prove that NATO's calculation about lack of spine on part of the Pakistani leadership is correct. They are therefore not to blame, but the Pindi/IBD crowd.


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## praful

That incident was a open declaration of WAR... how could they keep on firing for more than 2 hrs ?

This also put question mark on the operational capabilities of Pakistani forces especially PAF . why they didn't send reinforcement ?


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## The Vicious Kind

One question that comes to my mind ,is that on the significance of the Bonn conference.Without all the regional players like China ,Russia ,Iran and pakistan,would be immaterial.It will only be a declaration and nothing more!


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## Mughal-Prince

BATMAN said:


> ^^ I agree, bonn would not have bring much change to the failed talks in turkey but i think may be Pakistan could have taken the opportunity to present his point of view over NATO raids and share our side of story with western world.



Sir as you are a senior member I respectfully disagree with the point you have presented here ... IMHO Pakistan must take strong steps to send their message to western world ... Its already gone to far ...


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## Safriz

clearly shows NATO.and USA armed forces have no value for pakistani blood..they spill.it when they want.


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## Devil Soul

*Notice sent to US for vacating Shamsi airbase within 15 days: FM*
APP (1 hour ago) Today
ISLAMABAD: Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said on Tuesday that in line with the decisions of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, a notice has been sent to the United States for vacating the Shamsi airbase within 15 days.

Terming the Nato/Isaf attack on border posts in Mohmand Agency as the breach of Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty and violation of international law, the Foreign Minister said, &#8220;time has come to review our relations.&#8221;

Talking to PTV, the Foreign Minister said Pakistan has supported the international community in the war against terrorism and has rendered great sacrifices.

She said Pakistan&#8217;s positive cooperation must be recognized at international level and should not be taken as its weakness.

The minister said Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty and territorial integrity must be respected at all cost.

She categorically stated that the nation and the government would not tolerate such incidents in future. &#8220;We don&#8217;t want any aid or assistance, but we want to live with dignity and honour.&#8221;

Khar said Pakistan wants complete clarity from the international community about its sovereignty.

She said that Pakistan&#8217;s attitude towards the international community has been positive and it wanted to move forward with honour and dignity.

&#8220;It is up to Pakistan&#8217;s political forces to evolve future strategy, keeping in view the current situation,&#8221; said the minister.

&#8220;It is for the first time that the decision to halt Nato supply was taken at the highest level,&#8221; she said.

The foreign minister said the government&#8217;s focus was on preserving the national interests, adding, &#8220;We cannot sacrifice our national interests.&#8221;
Notice sent to US for vacating Shamsi airbase within 15 days: FM | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


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## Jango

President Camacho said:


> Oh no Blain2, they are anything but *silly*! The sleeping part is a very important piece of information.
> 
> No tidbits there!
> 
> If it were the 80's or even the 90's, no mode of communication like CableTV in every house, internet on every phone. Then we wouldn't witness such eruption of public sentiments, and the Army/Gov taking notice of such sentiments.
> 
> The sleeping part is not to tell the NATO what a dirty criminal they are. On the fronts, who cares who is sleeping and who is not? The sleeping part is for public consumption! It makes people highly emotional.
> 
> Let us say it was proper confrontation, and they all died fighting. The rage among the people would be, somewhat, replaced by pride.
> 
> But the revered soldiers getting caught unawares while they were resting makes people more vengeful. Pakistani Army is holding a good leverage to show the Americans that look, you committed a pretty big mistake there, now you gotta compensate for it.
> 
> To understand the value of soldiers killed in sleep, consider this - What if the soldiers were attacked, while they had their eyes closed, reading Namaz? That would go over the top, the parked tankers in Peshawar, wouldn't be parked anymore. Don't you think?
> 
> The sleeping part carries a great significant here, and that is why it has been emphasized upon by the ISPR.



Some people dies fighting as well. What about them then?


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## fd24

praful said:


> This was a tragic incident to say the least. But the mess have been created by both since zia's era.



Praful every other month you come on with you poor quality trolling and get banned. There is a limit to the amount of rubbish you can come out with.. We know by now what your agenda is. You are a pathetic troll that is hear for only one reason and thats troll troll troll. I would be grateful if you either stay away or post quality - its disgraceful of the likes of you that you can stoop as low as you do to attempt to troll.
Nato have crossed into our land and killed our soldiers whilst they sleep yet you show you agenda by blaming us and Zia? How dare you suggest we are to blame for this non provocated attack? You are a meesly poor little indian troll who sits high and mighty behind your labtop - in reality you got the smallest heart and brain in India. Have some respect for the soldiers and take a day off trolling.

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## TaimiKhan

safriz said:


> clearly shows NATO.and USA armed forces have no value for pakistani blood..they spill.it when they want.



So will be done in Afghanistan.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

VCheng said:


> These past incidents,as well as the present one, only prove that NATO's calculation about lack of spine on part of the Pakistani leadership is correct. They are therefore not to blame, but the Pindi/IBD crowd.



they show that Pakistan largely bit it's pride and ignored public anger --and despite of it -- they wanted to remain 'on mission' 

well guess what, the mission hasn't changed.....but you can be sure as hell that cooperation with them has, or will be signifantly effected for quite some time at the very least.

this incident is too much; and you know that when fuel suppliers (who gain from NATO cooperation) and when even cable operators (who gain from televising 'western' channels) also threaten to boycott those member-states ---that public anger by and large can no longer be set aside. It can have a demoralizing impact on the people and on our men who are on the frontline.

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## The HBS Guy

Two days back also they said '15 days'. 

15 days from when?


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## Jango

Now something i would like to add.

Now, since the PA stands on it's point that it was not a mistake, and very much intentional attack, then the question comes to mind is that what did ISAF/US/NATO gain by this?

IMO, the US tried to get a measure of the response time of the Pakistani forces , and check how deep the water is. They have claimed on previous occasions that they will pursue terrorists across border if the need be. 

In light of the scenario stated above, they could have checked the response of the Pakistani side.

Now, if the Pakistanis also are on the same page that it was intentional, then they must have to get a contingency plan if future incidents like this happen. Then the reaction time would need to be fast, and the response a befitting one.

So, do you people think that there could be a better reply next time , if a next time does come?


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## wmdisinfo

we will know after 2 weeks december 11 how much will they appologize and how much they will regret when they r out of water and toilet paper

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## CENTCOM

Dear Readers, What happen in Salala is very tragic and we are saddened by the death of 25 brave Pakistani soldiers and officials. Our thoughts and prayers go out to their families. We are looking at it very seriously, and that is the reason a high ranking official has been appointed to investigate this incident. A full investigation is underway, and we all should reserve comment on the details of what happened until all investigations are completed. 

In an official briefing yesterday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said, &#8220;The President's reaction is all of our reaction, which is that the events that took those lives -- the event, rather, was a tragedy. The loss of Pakistani life was a tragedy. We mourn the brave Pakistani service members who lost their lives. And our sympathies go out to their families and go out to Pakistan&#8221; He further said, &#8220;We take this matter very seriously. I believe my colleague over at the Pentagon, George Little, announced earlier today that in addition to ISAF looking into this, at the request of General Allen, CENTCOM will be investigating this matter. And we&#8217;re obviously very keen on finding out exactly what happened.&#8221; He also said, &#8220;As for our relationship with Pakistan, it continues to be an important, cooperative relationship that is also very complicated. And we have been -- senior U.S. officials have been in contact with the Pakistani government, with their counterparts in Pakistan, including Secretaries Panetta and Clinton, Chairman Dempsey, General Allen, Ambassador Munter. And those contacts will continue. It is very much in our national security interest to maintain a cooperative relationship with Pakistan, because we have shared interests in the fight against terrorism. And so we will continue to work on that relationship.&#8221;


Maj David Nevers
DET- United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command


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## Jango

Just saw on the news, 50 peshawar born pakistani students have denied to go to the US on scholarships for studies, in protest of this act.

---------- Post added at 11:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 PM ----------




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> they show that Pakistan largely bit it's pride and ignored public anger --and despite of it -- they wanted to remain 'on mission'
> 
> well guess what, the mission hasn't changed.....but you can be sure as hell that cooperation with them has, or will be signifantly effected for quite some time at the very least.
> 
> this incident is too much; and you know that when fuel suppliers (who gain from NATO cooperation) and when even cable operators (who gain from televising 'western' channels) also threaten to boycott those member-states ---that public anger by and large can no longer be set aside. It can have a demoralizing impact on the people and on our men who are on the frontline.



The response by the Army this time has also been much more changed, as well as the political leadership, like a letter to Karzai asking him to , in a way, shut up, because his land was used for this act and all that.

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## President Camacho

VCheng said:


> Spot on!
> 
> Add pics of a baby girl too for good measure, and it is evident that a psyops is in progress (from both sides).



All sides... the consumers of such psyops also act as instruments, circulating the pictures, that mostly shall be private, into public domain. 

I remember what happened in India during Kargil war, oh man I could puke at that. The reason was to garner public support for the war, and in turn, for the ruling party. But the worst example was of Kuwaiti Ambassador's (to US) daughter claiming she was a nurse in a hospital and firsthand witnessed Iraqi soldiers taking babies out of incubators and throwing them on the ground (what purpose would such an act fulfill - only god knows). Even Bush took notice of that and called it one of the reasons to save Kuwait. It is another story that Bush spoke on that not as an affected individual of such psyop, rather as an instrument, very deliberately, to rile up the public emotion to help support him in the war.

I don't want to comment on the private affairs of a martyred soldiers here, but the effects of the babygirl's photos can be seen in this thread itself. Some have actually claimed to have cried seeing that (I hope those who read this, understand that I am not critical of such emotions - rather I feel such emotions make us more human). 

With barrage of such emotions flooding through, people wouldn't care about right or wrong. They just want the head of the supposed perpetrator. 

Sad to see, many in here are blinded to the reality. But well, it does hurt - a lot, to pull down the cloak of emotions and see the ugly face of reality.

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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

on this day we learned that NATO are also a threat to our soldiers along the afghan border an not only the taliban, so now we should use weapons there that are also a threat to NATO like portable sams

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## President Camacho

nuclearpak said:


> Some people dies fighting as well. What about them then?



What about them? 

I didn't quite get what you mean here.


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## unicorn

The investigation should be conducted by the third party. It is being conducted by those people who have actually commit this crime.There are no Pakistani officials who are involved in this investigation.

So the credibility of whatever comes out from this co called investigation will be zero.There is no point in reserving our comments because one side which is Pakistani side has already presented the details of what had happened.


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## Jango

President Camacho said:


> What about them?
> 
> I didn't quite get what you mean here.



You said that the word 'died while sleeping is used to garner emotions'.

But some soldiers embraced martyrdom while standing, and fighting against the NATO forces. So , what about them?

They don't in that bracket which is being used to garner support through emotions.


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## Imran Khan

Kaniska said:


> To Pakistani friends: Pakistan is simply paying the price for being hostile to India....Please dont interpret that Pakistan should be under India......



hhahaha indians apni ram kahani le ker a jety hai her jaga .

---------- Post added at 09:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------




CENTCOM said:


> Dear Readers, What happen in Salala is very tragic and we are saddened by the death of 25 brave Pakistani soldiers and officials. Our thoughts and prayers go out to their families. We are looking at it very seriously, and that is the reason a high ranking official has been appointed to investigate this incident. A full investigation is underway, and we all should reserve comment on the details of what happened until all investigations are completed.
> 
> In an official briefing yesterday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said, &#8220;The President's reaction is all of our reaction, which is that the events that took those lives -- the event, rather, was a tragedy. The loss of Pakistani life was a tragedy. We mourn the brave Pakistani service members who lost their lives. And our sympathies go out to their families and go out to Pakistan&#8221; He further said, &#8220;We take this matter very seriously. I believe my colleague over at the Pentagon, George Little, announced earlier today that in addition to ISAF looking into this, at the request of General Allen, CENTCOM will be investigating this matter. And we&#8217;re obviously very keen on finding out exactly what happened.&#8221; He also said, &#8220;As for our relationship with Pakistan, it continues to be an important, cooperative relationship that is also very complicated. And we have been -- senior U.S. officials have been in contact with the Pakistani government, with their counterparts in Pakistan, including Secretaries Panetta and Clinton, Chairman Dempsey, General Allen, Ambassador Munter. And those contacts will continue. It is very much in our national security interest to maintain a cooperative relationship with Pakistan, because we have shared interests in the fight against terrorism. And so we will continue to work on that relationship.&#8221;
> 
> 
> Maj David Nevers
> DET- United States Central Command
> U.S. Central Command



go to hell you murderers lairs cheaters

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## Mercenary

US gains absolutely nothing by bombing Pakistani Soldiers.

Such things happen during the Fog of War, when borders are not properly marked.

During World War II, US Navy shot down its own planes in Italy in 1943 killing 700 Soldiers.

So get a grip.

Why don't you guys use the same condemnation when the Taliban Terrorists kill our soldiers instead of using selective outrage when America accidentally killed ours?

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## unicorn

*Australia Foreign Minister Anti Pakistani Comments about this incident*

_*Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd was unusually explicit on Pakistans dangerous doublegame over the weekend.

The view that I have is that it's quite clear that there is a line of supply of improvised explosive devices going into Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan from Taliban-controlled parts of western Pakistan, said Mr Rudd. That is my belief.

He added: If Pakistan is assisting this indirectly, or by whatever means  we have a real problem on our hands. *_

Pakistan rage over deadly ISAF airstrike | News.com.au


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## Mercenary

wmdisinfo said:


> we will know after 2 weeks december 11 how much will they appologize and how much they will regret when they r out of water and toilet paper



Not really. Nato forces have enough material stockpiled to keep functioning for 7 months even if all supply routes are closed.

Furthermore, they can airlift supplies into Afghanistan similar to the Berlin airlift and they are also using Central Asia to move 51% of their supplies into Afghanistan.

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## Mercenary

If Pakistan closes its airspace to NATO, NATO will close its airspace to Pakistani Airlines, PIA and such.

Which will be a devastating economic loss to Pakistan.

Pakistan is not Iran.

Iran has oil revenue to counter such threats and besides Iran doesn't have a major world power as its sworn enemy sitting right across the border like we do with India.

India is the only country that gains from this riff between Pakistan and NATO.

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## Mercenary

LOL.

Russia doesn't give a crap about Pakistan. Russia is heavily invested in India.

This is nothing more than Russia exploiting an opportunity from NATO.

Pakistan would be wise to look after its own interests.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

the missile shield has long been an issue of contention and they will leverage that


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## President Camacho

nuclearpak said:


> You said that the word 'died while sleeping is used to garner emotions'.
> 
> But some soldiers embraced martyrdom while standing, and fighting against the NATO forces. So , what about them?
> 
> They don't in that bracket which is being used to garner support through emotions.



Did you see the circulating pictures of newly born babygirl here? I am sure you did. Did you see the pictures of the officers that died there? I am sure you did. Did you see the pictures of all of the soldiers who died that day? I am 100% sure you did not. Did you see the pictures of the loved ones of all of those who died that day? I am 100% sure you did not.

See, I was pointing out to the importance of their having a chance to fight. In the end, a dead soldier is a dead soldier, whether he/she dies sleeping, praying, standing, fighting, or while attending nature's call. But the general public - I mean the majority - will see it in different ways.

After noticing the particular way in which the soldier dies, the people will form their emotion. The strength of such emotion will decide whether people take the pain to leave their homes and come out in the streets demanding action from the concerned authorities.

If you still do not understand how people behave under emotions, some times against their better judgment, then you should check out that video that was posted here a month back. This man's son is at the front... (now continuing the account in the father's words)...

"I got a call from my friend, saying my son had embraced _shahadat_. 

So I asked my friend, where did he receive the bullets, on the chest or in the back? 

My friend asks me, 'why, what does it matter?' 

I tell him that if my son received bullets in the back, then he will find no place in the cemetery here. 

He can be buried elsewhere, and I won't attend the funeral. 

My friend told me, no sir, your son received bullets on his chest. 

That was a great moment of satisfaction for me, and I said, yes, now he has a place in the cemetery here."

Tell me NuclearPak, what does it matter where the guy received bullets? It is just emotions, and not rational thinking, that is at work there.

Reality is this - all the dead soldiers, that died while serving the country, irrespective of the causes of death (including suicide related to depression), shall be treated the same. But while in earlier times, glorified actions of dying in the war at the hands of enemy was used to garner support for troops, in today's times such evoking of emotions is used to carry out separate agendas for they would like to call "the greater good".

Now you see the main reason behind ISPR's stress on the soldiers being asleep at the time of the attack?

I hope you understand what I mean here, because I am not very good with communication, and my grammar has taken a nosedive since I joined Def.pk

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## Jango

Mercenary said:


> Not really. Nato forces have enough material stockpiled to keep functioning for 7 months even if all supply routes are closed.
> 
> Furthermore, they can airlift supplies into Afghanistan similar to the Berlin airlift and they are also using Central Asia to move 51% of their supplies into Afghanistan.



The thing is , that NATO or ISAF might not be much affected by this, but this is the thing which shows that you will not let your land be used for this. This is a statement of intent that we are not your slaves. Now if it affects the ISAF or not, different story.

The people who are calling for an end to supply routes are not thinking, that it is for bringing ISAF down to it's knees, it is for a intent.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Dron.ru said:


> If the relationship between India and Pakistan continue to improve, it will be possible interesting joint projects such as the development of new generation systems for air and space defense. Now in the supply of military equipment, we are limited to complex relationships between our partners.
> 
> For example, to prevent unauthorized flights by American aircraft with stealth technology in the airspace of Pakistan, we could offer new radar system with separation of transmitter and receiver. At the beginning of this century, Iran wanted to buy us a system that includes the satellite constellation, ground infrastructure with fiber-optic link between passive radars and mobile missile launchers S300. Such system would make it impossible for a military invasion from the air, but the price is $ 4 billion at that time appeared unacceptable to Iran. Now they would be happy to buy such system, but the political situation in the world has changed and now we are more difficult to sell to Iran what it wants.



you mean to tell me that it was an issue of price that russia backed out of the deal???

oh give me a break


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## wmdisinfo

CENTCOM said:


> Dear Readers, What happen in Salala is very tragic and we are saddened by the death of 25 brave Pakistani soldiers and officials. Our thoughts and prayers go out to their families. We are looking at it very seriously, and that is the reason a high ranking official has been appointed to investigate this incident. A full investigation is underway, and we all should reserve comment on the details of what happened until all investigations are completed.
> 
> In an official briefing yesterday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said, &#8220;The President's reaction is all of our reaction, which is that the events that took those lives -- the event, rather, was a tragedy. The loss of Pakistani life was a tragedy. We mourn the brave Pakistani service members who lost their lives. And our sympathies go out to their families and go out to Pakistan&#8221; He further said, &#8220;We take this matter very seriously. I believe my colleague over at the Pentagon, George Little, announced earlier today that in addition to ISAF looking into this, at the request of General Allen, CENTCOM will be investigating this matter. And we&#8217;re obviously very keen on finding out exactly what happened.&#8221; He also said, &#8220;As for our relationship with Pakistan, it continues to be an important, cooperative relationship that is also very complicated. And we have been -- senior U.S. officials have been in contact with the Pakistani government, with their counterparts in Pakistan, including Secretaries Panetta and Clinton, Chairman Dempsey, General Allen, Ambassador Munter. And those contacts will continue. It is very much in our national security interest to maintain a cooperative relationship with Pakistan, because we have shared interests in the fight against terrorism. And so we will continue to work on that relationship.&#8221;
> 
> 
> Maj David Nevers
> DET- United States Central Command
> U.S. Central Command


GO TO HELL.we dont want your prayers or thoughts.Go and look for your own supply lines through your beloved russia.We dont care about u we are 180 million and we are muslims we will show you what is PAKISTAN.I repeat GO TO HELL WITH YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS U WILL NEED IT IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
If u dont know what happened then i will tell u what happened you came with ur choppers and bombed our 2 posts and killed our 24 troops and injured our 13 soliders for 2 hours non stop from 00:05 hours to 0205 hours.we believe our Director general military operations and ISPR not some centcom or pentcom go to hell

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## @nline

Long Live Pak Army
Long Live Pakistan
Long Live ISI

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## Jango

President Camacho said:


> Did you see the circulating pictures of newly born babygirl here? I am sure you did. Did you see the pictures of the officers that died there? I am sure you did. Did you see the pictures of all of the soldiers who died that day? I am 100% sure you did not. Did you see the pictures of the loved ones of all of those who died that day? I am 100% sure you did not.
> 
> See, I was pointing out to the importance of their having a chance to fight. In the end, a dead soldier is a dead soldier, whether he/she dies sleeping, praying, standing, fighting, or while attending nature's call. But the general public - I mean the majority - will see it in different ways.
> 
> After noticing the particular way in which the soldier dies, the people will form their emotion. The strength of such emotion will decide whether people take the pain to leave their homes and come out in the streets demanding action from the concerned authorities.
> 
> If you still do not understand how people behave under emotions, some times against their better judgment, then you should check out that video that was posted here a month back. This man's son is at the front... (now continuing the account in the father's words)...
> 
> "I got a call from my friend, saying my son had embraced _shahadat_.
> 
> So I asked my friend, where did he receive the bullets, on the chest or in the back?
> 
> My friend asks me, 'why, what does it matter?'
> 
> I tell him that if my son received bullets in the back, then he will find no place in the cemetery here.
> 
> He can be buried elsewhere, and I won't attend the funeral.
> 
> My friend told me, no sir, your son received bullets on his chest.
> 
> That was a great moment of satisfaction for me, and I said, yes, now he has a place in the cemetery here."
> 
> Tell me NuclearPak, what does it matter where the guy received bullets? It is just emotions, and not rational thinking, that is at work there.
> 
> Reality is this - all the dead soldiers, that died while serving the country, irrespective of the causes of death (including suicide related to depression), shall be treated the same. But while in earlier times, glorified actions of dying in the war at the hands of enemy was used to garner support for troops, in today's times such evoking of emotions is used to carry out separate agendas for they would like to call "the greater good".
> 
> Now you see the main reason behind ISPR's stress on the soldiers being asleep at the time of the attack?
> 
> I hope you understand what I mean here, because I am not very good with communication, and my grammar has taken a nosedive since I joined Def.pk



I fully agree with that.

But, the point that the ISPR also tried to make IMO, is that the the soldiers died sleeping, e.g they were killed unprovoked. And they were not in fighting gear.

But, fully agreed with your point.


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## Mercenary

nuclearpak said:


> The thing is , that NATO or ISAF might not be much affected by this, but this is the thing which shows that you will not let your land be used for this. This is a statement of intent that we are not your slaves. Now if it affects the ISAF or not, different story.
> 
> The people who are calling for an end to supply routes are not thinking, that it is for bringing ISAF down to it's knees, it is for a intent.



Thats fine. But look at the long term damage it does to Pakistan.

Pakistan only has two friends in the world. Saudi Arabia and China. Both of them are friends of convenience.

As India rises economically, it makes sense for both countries to boost their ties with India at the expense of Pakistan.

Then what?

Do you want to be a pariah state? To be declared a State Sponsor of Terrorism?

Iran has the same problem, but Iran has oil to offset any sanctions. We don't.

Is it any wonder why Pakistanis are trying to leave Pakistan in droves to the same countries which killed our 24 soldiers.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------




wmdisinfo said:


> GO TO HELL.we dont want your prayers or thoughts.Go and look for your own supply lines through your beloved russia.We dont care about u we are 180 million and we are muslims we will show you what is PAKISTAN.I repeat GO TO HELL WITH YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS U WILL NEED IT IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
> If u dont know what happened then i will tell u what happened you came with ur choppers and bombed our 2 posts and killed our 24 troops and injured our 13 soliders for 2 hours non stop from 00:05 hours to 0205 hours.we believe our Director general military operations and ISPR not some centcom or pentcom go to hell



This threat is coming from someone living in a NATO country. LOLz

Can you even see the hypocrisy in your post.

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## LeGenD

AmberDutt said:


> what I am wondering is that how come these jets and helis (which apparently attacked twice) didnt get picked up on Pakistani radar.. They were normal assets and not like the stealth ones used in Abbotabad. Did PAF even scramble to intercept..?? Or were the radars again switched off??


Communications jamming is a possibility. Blind the target and then assault it.


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## Jango

Mercenary said:


> Thats fine. But look at the long term damage it does to Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan only has two friends in the world. Saudi Arabia and China. Both of them are friends of convenience.
> 
> As India rises economically, it makes sense for both countries to boost their ties with India at the expense of Pakistan.
> 
> Then what?
> 
> Do you want to be a pariah state? To be declared a State Sponsor of Terrorism?
> 
> Iran has the same problem, but Iran has oil to offset any sanctions. We don't.
> 
> Is it any wonder why Pakistanis are trying to leave Pakistan in droves to the same countries which killed our 24 soldiers.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> This threat is coming from someone living in a NATO country. LOLz
> 
> Can you even see the hypocrisy in your post.



What long term damage, we refuse to be puppets of somebody and be termed as a failed state, and face sanctions, just for refusing to be a slave of somebody?


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## patna_ke_presley

Omar1984 said:


> *Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes*
> 
> BY ALAN CULLISON
> MOSCOWRussia said it may not let NATO use its territory to supply troops in Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't seriously consider its objections to a U.S.-led missile shield for Europe, Russia's ambassador to NATO said Monday.
> 
> Russia has stepped up its objections to the antimissile system in Europe, threatening last week to deploy its own ballistic missiles on the border of the European Union to counter the move.
> 
> Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> 
> Russia Threatens To Cut Off NATO Afghanistan Transit | EurasiaNet.org
> 
> 
> 
> Very good news. Pakistan and Russia need to enhance cooperation with each other against NATO.



It seems Russians are in Bargaining mode after the increase worth of Northern Distribution Network and helping American with Back channel bargaining. I found this paragraph in second news link. Good going Russian do help the Americans and also talking of their own interest together.

*And EurasiaNet's Deirdre Tynan reported today that Russia has quietly acceded to U.S. and NATO plans to begin using the Northern Distribution Network to take materiel out of Afghanistan, rather than just into the country as has so far been the case. So on a technical level, at least, there has been progress on U.S.-Russian cooperation on Afghan transit.*

Also in this news link dated 28th November 2011
Afghanistan: NDN Finding Reverse Gear | EurasiaNet.org

Some few points are there:-

1)The NDN -- a network of road, rail and air routes that traverses Central Asia states -- came into being in early 2009. It was developed as an alternative to a Pakistani supply line that had become increasingly vulnerable to ambushes. Despite higher transit costs, the NDN carries close to 90 percent of all non-military items bound for Afghanistan. In addition, more than 60 percent of Coalition Forces fuel needs are transited through Central Asia. Pakistans decision to close another supply route means that the NDNs strategic importance is only going to grow in the coming months.

2)A November 14 sources-sought notice posted on the US governments Federal Business Opportunities website indicates that the German-run Camp Marmal near Mazar-i-Sharif will be substantially enlarged to facilitate a Northern Distribution Network hub at a cost earmarked to be between $10 million and $25 million.


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## Mercenary

nuclearpak said:


> What long term damage, we refuse to be puppets of somebody and be termed as a failed state, and face sanctions, just for refusing to be a slave of somebody?



Then be ready for punishing sanctions, travel restrictions, being declared a state sponsor of terrorism.

That will cause Pakistan's faltering economy to collapse, causing massive inflation, commodities prices will increase which will cause massive rioting and civil and rule of law to collapse completely.

Turning Pakistan into one of those failed African states.

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## wmdisinfo

PAKISTAN BOYCOTTS BONN CONFERENCE:
The decision was taken during the federal cabinet meeting held in Lahore over Mohmand tragedy. 

Pakistan on Tuesday decided to boycott the Bonn conference to discuss the future of Afghanistan on December 5 in protest against NATO air strikes which killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, an official said.

"The cabinet has decided not to attend the Bonn meeting," the government official told AFP on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to brief the media.

The meeting of federal cabinet headed by Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani was held in Governor House Punjab. Special prayer was offered for the soldiers martyred in NATO attacks and sympathy was expressed for the families of the soldiers.

The prime minister also announced to call a joint session of parliament to discuss situation after NATO attacks. Federal cabinet maintained that the incidents like Abbottabad and Mohmand Agency would not be tolerated and NATO attack on Pakistani check post was attack on Pakistan&#8217;s security and sovereignty.

While briefing the federal cabinet, Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar took the cabinet into confidence over diplomatic contacts after NATO raid. FM said that NATO forces also violated the international laws along with Pakistani borders. The prime minister informed the cabinet that a joint session of parliament would be summoned to take the house into confidence over &#8216;memogate&#8217; scandal and NATO attacks. 
Dunya News: Pakistanakistan decides to boycott Bonn moot in protest ...


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## President Camacho

nuclearpak said:


> I fully agree with that.
> 
> But, the point that the ISPR also tried to make IMO, is that the the soldiers died sleeping, e.g they were killed unprovoked. And they were not in fighting gear.
> 
> But, fully agreed with your point.



Yes, you are right. The ISPR's main point with respect to the sleeping part is, they (soldiers at the posts) were fired upon unprovoked (after all how can they provoke the enemy, when they are asleep?).

You are very right in assessing that, and with the same assessment I raised the question about the sleeping part that how can they be asleep when flares were fired 30 minutes before the shooting started. (Relating to the account of injured soldiers)

I questioned that part, and I have been questioning all the questionable parts, only to help people understand that all the accounts we heard yet make it for a very confusing incident at this point of time.

And that the incident is not as simple as it looks, so we should reserve our emotion laden conclusions against any of the parties involved - Pakistan/NATO/US/Taliban.

Well, my appeal goes out to all the Pakistanis, Americans, Afghans, and Indians too in here.

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## SEAL

I hope they won't mind selling S-300 advance to Pakistan.


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## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> Now something i would like to add.
> 
> Now, since the PA stands on it's point that it was not a mistake, and very much intentional attack, then the question comes to mind is that what did ISAF/US/NATO gain by this?
> 
> IMO, the US tried to get a measure of the response time of the Pakistani forces , and check how deep the water is. They have claimed on previous occasions that they will pursue terrorists across border if the need be.
> 
> In light of the scenario stated above, they could have checked the response of the Pakistani side.
> 
> Now, if the Pakistanis also are on the same page that it was intentional, then they must have to get a contingency plan if future incidents like this happen. Then the reaction time would need to be fast, and the response a befitting one.
> 
> *So, do you people think that there could be a better reply next time , if a next time does come?*



Hmmm!... Words of Najm Sethi.. Well, If that is the case then American have miscalculated possible backlash from Pakistan side because the situation that consequently has erupted in Pakistan is more like do or die sort of stuff. If now Pakistan retreats from its current position then it has no genuine and respectful role to play in Afghanistan, and this is not the end, incidents like the one we are discussing will become norm like drones.



> So, do you people think that there could be a better reply next time , if a next time does come?



There's no next time, either you halt them now for once and for all or you get ready to face many of them. Pakistan can not afford open confrontation with US thats the reality but it does not mean you can't do anything.. IMO Pakistan will not be enticed to go to extremes because if it goes it means another nightmare for US and region. 

In nutshell times now to arrange all circles on one line and act diplomatically..

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## Jango

Mercenary said:


> Then be ready for punishing sanctions, travel restrictions, being declared a state sponsor of terrorism.
> 
> That will cause Pakistan's faltering economy to collapse, causing massive inflation, commodities prices will increase which will cause massive rioting and civil and rule of law to collapse completely.
> 
> Turning Pakistan into one of those failed African states.



Good luck in your doomsday scenario then.!

And all the best in staying in Canada!

For stopping supplies being taken through our state, all this, and we get to be an African state.

You might even take that pakistani flag off and sing the Canadian National Anthem, and never speak Urdu again.


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## regular

Mercenary said:


> If Pakistan closes its airspace to NATO, NATO will close its airspace to Pakistani Airlines, PIA and such.
> 
> Which will be a devastating economic loss to Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan is not Iran.
> Iran has oil revenue to counter such threats and besides Iran doesn't have a major world power as its sworn enemy sitting right across the border like we do with India.
> India is the only country that gains from this riff between Pakistan and NATO.


We are going to close our airspace for the Military planes or the fighter planes......not the commercial ones they can pass we don't care. Plus India is not as big threat as US/NATO is , cuz India is direct under our target whereas US/NATO mainland is far far away from our reach....


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## Jango

President Camacho said:


> Yes, you are right. The ISPR's main point with respect to the sleeping part is, they (soldiers at the posts) were fired upon unprovoked (after all how can they provoke the enemy, when they are asleep?).
> 
> You are very right in assessing that, and with the same assessment I raised the question about the sleeping part that how can they be asleep when flares were fired 30 minutes before the shooting started. (Relating to the account of injured soldiers)
> 
> I questioned that part, and I have been questioning all the questionable parts, only to help people understand that all the accounts we heard yet make it for a very confusing incident at this point of time.
> 
> And that the incident is not as simple as it looks, so we should reserve our emotion laden conclusions against any of parties involved - Pakistan/NATO/US/Taliban.
> 
> Well, my appeal goes out to all the Pakistanis, Americans, Afghans, and Indians too in here.



The spotting of illumination flares at a distance, and the flying of helis at night is not unheard of in that area.

The duty NCO might have recorded that with the Company havaldar or somebody, but he might have made nothing of it.

After all it is not possible to differentiate between a PA heli and NATo heli with the naked eye at night.

But I agree with you that the full details are not out yet, and they might not even come in the NATO investigation, so keep up the amazement.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

praful said:


> India won't allow that



like they didnt ''allow'' Klimov RD-93s for the JF Thunders, right?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

VCheng, why the defeatist mindset? 

what does THAT serve, pray tell


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## Jango

Emmie said:


> Hmmm!... Words of Najm Sethi.. Well, If that is the case then American have miscalculated possible backlash from Pakistan side because the situation that consequently has erupted in Pakistan is more like do or die sort of stuff. If now Pakistan retreats from its current position then it has no genuine and respectful role to play in Afghanistan, and this is not the end, incidents like the one we are discussing will become norm like drones.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no next time, either you halt them now for once and for all or you get ready to face many of them. Pakistan can not afford open confrontation with US thats the reality but it does not mean you can't do anything.. IMO Pakistan will not be enticed to go to extremes because if it goes it means another nightmare for US and region.
> 
> In nutshell times now to arrange all circles on one line and act diplomatically..



We need to get everybody on the samepage, and stop this complicit thing, the sort where the public is fed something, and the yanks the other.

And yeah, Najam Sethi, although I never listen to him, but that was a good point.


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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Pakistan cannot count on the Russian anymore than on anybody else in this situation.



i actually agree with this statement from our fake pakistani friend 

it seems like the people of pakistan are all willing die hard keyboard martyrs, because provocation can have its draw backs, i doubt russia will really do something so provocative because of the high stakes, they are just using leverage, DONT GET EXCITED.


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## Jon Snow

Zarvan said:


> Because They Knew Pakistan would not hit back the day we will show them if they will kill Soldier in reply we will make sure 10 of Nato soldiers become History I guarantee you they will never attack again



So according to you Pakistan should kill 280 NATO soldiers?? You'll lose at least as many of your own soldiers in the operation and at the end of it - what will you gain?? All aid from the US will stop - All up gradation of your F-16s will stop and your f 16s will become unusable, No more P3s or economic trade with most western nations - FDI will become almost 0 - economy will collapse. You wont be able to maintain your current force levels. Unemployment levels will go through the roof, crime will become even more commonplace, much of the unemployed youth will start blaming the govt for this and maybe even join the millitants and terrorists, basically- terrorism will also rise in the country and you will no longer have the strength or resources to fight them off for long In short you will be in deep sh*t.

I know you guys hate your current govt - but they are doing what is best for pakistan at a time when you guys dont have a lot of choices. Use this incident to force the US into giving you some more goodies and aid - I know its cold but its whats best for the country.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

praful said:


> This is not a good policy to rely on enemy's best friend during War.



which isn't what's being done.....i was merely pointing something out --since this forum does have a few thick-heads who tend to overlook things


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## Mercenary

nuclearpak said:


> Just saw on the news, 50 peshawar born pakistani students have denied to go to the US on scholarships for studies, in protest of this act.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> The response by the Army this time has also been much more changed, as well as the political leadership, like a letter to Karzai asking him to , in a way, shut up, because his land was used for this act and all that.



I am confused.

Have they been denied by Americans to come study in America or they have refused to go to America to study?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the latter, apparently 

its been done in the past --though not on such a large scale


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## Jango

Mercenary said:


> I am confused.
> 
> Have they been denied by Americans to come study in America or they have refused to go to America to study?



refused to go to US themselves, voluntarily, and refused to meet the US ambassador or somebody because of this.


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## Mercenary

Pakistan should this incident as an opportunity.

1 - Force the USA to lifting tariffs on Pakistani goods being imported to USA. This will cause Pakistan's economy to improve by opening up the huge US market to Pakistani goods.
2 - Give us better communication systems and establish a joint communication on the border areas.
3 - More Advanced Weaponry such as Cobra Gunships, F-16 fighters, etc.
4 - More aid in developing Pakistan's crumbling Electrical Grid.
5 - And most important of all, compensation to the victim's families.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Mercenary said:


> Pakistan should this incident as an opportunity.
> 
> 1 - Force the USA to lifting tariffs on Pakistani goods being imported to USA. This will cause Pakistan's economy to improve by opening up the huge US market to Pakistani goods.
> 2 - Give us better communication systems and establish a joint communication on the border areas.
> 3 - More Advanced Weaponry such as Cobra Gunships, F-16 fighters, etc.
> 4 - More aid in developing Pakistan's crumbling Electrical Grid.
> 5 - And most important of all, compensation to the victim's families.



and these things will not come with more string attached; they will solve this immediate issue of a hostile attack on 2 dozen troops involved in counter insurgency --killed by those whom they should not have been killed by, intentionally?


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## Jango

Mercenary said:


> Pakistan should this incident as an opportunity.
> 
> 1 - Force the USA to lifting tariffs on Pakistani goods being imported to USA. This will cause Pakistan's economy to improve by opening up the huge US market to Pakistani goods.
> 2 - Give us better communication systems and establish a joint communication on the border areas.
> 3 - More Advanced Weaponry such as Cobra Gunships, F-16 fighters, etc.
> 4 - More aid in developing Pakistan's crumbling Electrical Grid.
> 5 - And most important of all, compensation to the victim's families.



Compensation will already be provided to the families.

We already have enough guns to go about. And projects are being worked on with China.

Communications and economy are somethings that need to be looked. 

But hey, we are going


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## Mabs

Mercenary said:


> US gains absolutely nothing by bombing Pakistani Soldiers.
> 
> Such things happen during the Fog of War, when borders are not properly marked.
> 
> During World War II, US Navy shot down its own planes in Italy in 1943 killing 700 Soldiers.
> 
> So get a grip.
> 
> Why don't you guys use the same condemnation when the Taliban Terrorists kill our soldiers instead of using selective outrage when America accidentally killed ours?


 
&#8226;This is neither 1940 nor a World War is going on right now. This is the era of laser guided missles which hit with pinpoint accuracy.
&#8226;The war and its fog is in Afghanistan where the real battle lies, these posts were inside the Pakistani territory.
&#8226;The border might be unclear but the posts weren't which were clearly pointed out to NATO through reference maps. If the US vehemently insists that the drones only target and kill militants, why can't the much more advanced weapon systems do the same - differentiate between friend and foe and target the latter only.
&#8226;No one here supports the Taliban and you will not see anyone rejoicing the deaths of Pakistani soldiers, regardless of who the aggressor is - get a life.

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## Mercenary

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and these things will not come with more string attached; they will solve this immediate issue of a hostile attack on 2 dozen troops involved in counter insurgency --killed by those whom they should not have been killed by, intentionally?



Pak-Afghan border is poorly marked. And as such these kinds of incidents are unavoidable.

We need to establish a better command and control communication with ISAF to prevent these incidents from occurring in the future.


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## regular

Mercenary said:


> I am confused.
> 
> Have they been denied by Americans to come study in America or they have refused to go to America to study?


Oh ! man US is hungary for their money nowadays...plus these pplz denied to go to the US or taken back their Applications from the Embassy uninanimously.....cuz they were offered scholarships from the US government on the basis of the govt to govt agreement......
Nowadays the US govt was working extensively to recruit many agents from the students studying in US on US scholarships .....so those contacts or traps are getting under scrutiny too......Alhamdolillah!..........


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## IndianTiger

sometime US embassy officials kills pakistani people on road. Sometime surgical strikes. And then mass killing of pakistan soldiers. Why USA doing all this after using pakistan in Afghanistan war


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## Mercenary

nuclearpak said:


> Compensation will already be provided to the families.
> 
> We already have enough guns to go about. And projects are being worked on with China.
> 
> Communications and economy are somethings that need to be looked.
> 
> But hey, we are going



Yes we all know the millions that the Pakistani Government will offer these soldiers.

Our Military are using World War II - 1960's era guns and they need to rapidly update their arsenal.

Chinese Projects are myopic in scope. There needs to be more broader investment in Pakistan which is something China is reluctant to do as its too busy developing its own country.


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## Emmie

nuclearpak said:


> We need to get everybody on the samepage, *and stop this complicit thing, the sort where the public is fed something, and the yanks the other.*
> 
> And yeah, Najam Sethi, although I never listen to him, but that was a good point.



Trust me if we all act as single unit then there will be no complicity whatsoever..

And yes, the reason why I referred to Sethi was because I found contents of your post very similar to his analysis. My post had nothing to do with his analysis.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Mercenary said:


> Pak-Afghan border is poorly marked. And as such these kinds of incidents are unavoidable.
> 
> We need to establish a better command and control communication with ISAF to prevent these incidents from occurring in the future.



The location was well inside Pakistan,NATO n USA knew abt its location... it was marked,...had a Pakistani flag and looked like a military location... they attacked twice and for 2 hours... their technology is much more sophisticated etc... 

If you still defend them... God bless you.

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## I M Sikander

regular said:


> Yes! it must be closed down too till the culprits of the incidents are not handed over to us......for punishment......Insha-Allah......



*Sweat dreams (sorry but a bitter truth)*


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## Omar1984

Pakistan should make its own conference with the Afghan Taliban


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## desiman

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Most analysts were already looking at the talks as meaningless, especially after the ones in Turkey, which were supposed to have acted as a 'launch pad' for the policies that would have been agreed upon in Bonn.
> 
> I know some people are concerned about Pakistan 'losing a voice' at the conference and therefore in the 'end game', but the 'voice' that really matters is not going to be determined at the conference, but between the major players in Afghanistan.



Pakistan's role in Afghanistan is overplayed and over-hyped to start with. Its actually better for Afghanistan that Pakistan stays out of the country and more progressive and modern nations move in to initiate growth and development. The only factor that plays in favor of Pakistan is its geographical proximity to Afghanistan but that does not make Pakistan the most important player in the country's future. Countries with a strong economy and international reach such as US, India and China are far more crucial for Afghanistan. Again boycotting these talks show Pakistan's immaturity in handling diplomatic relations. Infact showing up at these talking voicing your point of view would have been much better for Pakistan.

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## Bhairava

Good move - for all.


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## Mercenary

Mabs said:


> &#8226;This is neither 1940 nor a World War is going on right now. This is the era of laser guided missles which hit with pinpoint accuracy.
> &#8226;The war and its fog is in Afghanistan where the real battle lies, these posts were inside the Pakistani territory.
> &#8226;The border might be unclear but the posts weren't which were clearly pointed out to NATO through reference maps. If the US vehemently insists that the drones only target and kill militants, why can't the much more advanced weapon systems do the same - differentiate between friend and foe and target the latter.
> &#8226;No one here supports the Taliban and you will not see anyone rejoicing the deaths of Pakistani soldiers, regardless of who the aggressor is - get a life.



If these laser guided missiles hit with pinpoint accruacy then you must support the Drone attacks which are taking out those terroists in FATA?

Pakistani terrority is used by these terrorists to launch attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

As for those posts. They were recently established after Pakistan conducted a military operation in the region and took the region back from Taliban terrorists.

USA didn't use drones in this operation. Afghan commandos called in air strikes saying they were being bombed from locations within Pakistan. US send in Apache Gunships which fired missiles which killed our soldiers.

So all of this needs to be determined in a through, joint and impartial investigation.


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## I M Sikander

regular said:


> Yes! Ure right cuz our public is already so much fool...so they don't need to fool them anymore.Thats why they getting backstabbed from the same ruling elite all the time....



Its not the political ellite, actually it is the greedy and hijjra generals of PA.

PA allied institutions (askri, fauji foundations, NLC and dozen of other institutions) are making huge money through NATO and american supplies to Afghanistan.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

all cooperation should be indefinitely suspended

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## Emmie

Mercenary said:


> Pak-Afghan border is poorly marked. And as such these kinds of incidents are unavoidable.
> 
> We need to establish a better command and control communication with ISAF to prevent these incidents from occurring in the future.



What communication exactly? We share precise locations of our posts with them and info is upgraded everyday... isn't this enough to avoid blunders? IMO It is enough until you don't have malifide intentions.

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## Desert Fox

This might be off topic but i have a question, is Pakistan officially in SCO considering what the foreign minister of Russia Sergey Lavrov said:

"Lavrov expressed sympathy for the loss of lives and injuries as well as complete understanding of Pakistan's position, according to a press release issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

*He underscored that Pakistan and Russia were partners in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization* and also partners in promoting regional cooperation. He stressed the need of NATO thoroughly investigating the incident."
Pakistani FM briefs China, Russia on NATO attacks, gov't decisions


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## regular

AstanoshKhan said:


> Repercussion?
> 
> What kind of mindset is that? they come and kills you, and you're worried about the repercussions. If we were to worry about the repercussions, why do we have this military in first place?


Excellent said brother!.........Why we have this military then and for what pupose ???.....sh*ttng in their pants on hearing the US/NATO planes coming on our borders/airspace.......or just to collect their paychecks.....what kind of nonsense is that......Its so embarassing that our military can't even fight back for their own poor soldiers now.....leave the public out of equation...We never thought of seeing such a situation ....I guess realli we gotta turn to Allah SBWT to save our pplz from the evils of the US/NATO......

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Mercenary said:


> Can you prove he wasn't?
> 
> Operations in FATA have not been launched in North Waziristan and there hasn't been any major operations in FATA since 2009.
> 
> Those representatives of FATA sitting in national assembly, many of them are being killed by Taliban terrorists because they are moderate. Can a Pakistan citizen travel freely in FATA under the protection of the Pakistani Constitution?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:59 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> All of this needs to be determined by a proper investigation. And you can't hide behind technology and sophistication whenever it suits you.
> 
> Lets conduct a joint investigation with NATO to see what happened.



Investigation by NATO... the past ones were never released n this one... i have no hope..

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## Mercenary

regular said:


> We are going to close our airspace for the Military planes or the fighter planes......not the commercial ones they can pass we don't care. Plus India is not as big threat as US/NATO is , cuz India is direct under our target whereas US/NATO mainland is far far away from our reach....



Well NATO can counter by closing commercial aviation planes from Pakistan.

As for India, a riff between Pakistan and NATO only benefits India.

---------- Post added at 03:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> all cooperation should be indefinitely suspended



What makes you think there was any cooperation to begin with.


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## I M Sikander

tvsram1992 said:


> NATO knows how to use pakistani airspace



Yah very easy , bribe some generals, also give extensions to few generals after their retirement and on the political front just show well wishes to some political leaders and USA will surly get all facilities again and un-interrupted.


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## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> VCheng, why the defeatist mindset?
> 
> what does THAT serve, pray tell




My mindset is not defeatist; it is merely not overly emotional, and relies on cold, calm logic that is often needed in matters of international geopolitics.

This is a huge and tragic loss not only for the soldier's families, but a blow to the professionalism of the proud Pakistan Army as well, no doubt. However, it would be easy to fall prey to a knee jerk reaction that causes further harm to Pakistan rather than helping.

We need to fight SMARTER, not HARDER. And this means going on a political offensive, realizing that our military and our economy cannot and will not survive a direct confrontation with NATO forces and its aftermath. This is not a defeatist, but eminently pragmatic, point of view.

One way to ensure one's voice not being heard is not to be present at the table. Thus, boycotting the investigation was a mistake, as will be missing the Bonn conference.

Please note that I am not supporting the wrong that was done by NATO in this case; all I am saying is that we need to be smart enough not to complicate matters further by our wounded pride.

National pride will take a long time to recover, after grass root changes in our institutions, slowly and gradually over decades, not by a few emotional rallies.


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## President Camacho

CENTCOM said:


> Dear Readers, What happen in Salala is very tragic and we are saddened by the death of 25 brave Pakistani soldiers and officials. Our thoughts and prayers go out to their families. We are looking at it very seriously, and that is the reason a high ranking official has been appointed to investigate this incident. A full investigation is underway, and we all should reserve comment on the details of what happened until all investigations are completed.
> 
> In an official briefing yesterday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said, The President's reaction is all of our reaction, which is that the events that took those lives -- the event, rather, was a tragedy. The loss of Pakistani life was a tragedy. We mourn the brave Pakistani service members who lost their lives. And our sympathies go out to their families and go out to Pakistan He further said, We take this matter very seriously. I believe my colleague over at the Pentagon, George Little, announced earlier today that in addition to ISAF looking into this, at the request of General Allen, CENTCOM will be investigating this matter. And were obviously very keen on finding out exactly what happened. He also said, As for our relationship with Pakistan, it continues to be an important, cooperative relationship that is also very complicated. And we have been -- senior U.S. officials have been in contact with the Pakistani government, with their counterparts in Pakistan, including Secretaries Panetta and Clinton, Chairman Dempsey, General Allen, Ambassador Munter. And those contacts will continue. It is very much in our national security interest to maintain a cooperative relationship with Pakistan, because we have shared interests in the fight against terrorism. And so we will continue to work on that relationship.
> 
> 
> Maj David Nevers
> DET- United States Central Command
> U.S. Central Command



Maj. Nevers, please tell us, why would Gen Allen want the CENTCOM to investigate this matter, when it is the sole responsibility of the ISAF... unless, the troops involved in the attack were Americans? Were they?

Also, does the CENTCOM have the authority to investigate in the matters pertaining to the ISAF?

The need for CENTCOM to start another investigation of the same incident points to a lack of trust between the ISAF and the CENTCOM. I wonder why would your General want to take this step, if not to just show off the degree of seriousness with which he takes this incident.


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## Mercenary

Emmie said:


> What communication exactly? We share precise locations of our posts with them and info is upgraded everyday... isn't this enough to avoid blunders? IMO It is enough until you don't have malifide intentions.



I am not sure how precise those locations are.

Information is still very raw at this moment as actually what happened.

There are reports that the Taliban deliberately caused this border clash by launching attacks close to the Pakistani posts in the hopes that NATO could cause friendly fire casualties.

But again, all of this needs to be investigated.


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## Mercenary

If only Pakistan was smart and knew how to use USA for its own purposes.

Instead of buying Arms and short term gains from USA, Pakistan should get USA to commit to long term projects and infrastructure development in Pakistan and set up joint weapons research and development with Pakistan the way Turkey does where USA makes F-16's.


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## regular

IndianTiger said:


> sometime US embassy officials kills pakistani people on road. Sometime surgical strikes. And then mass killing of pakistan soldiers. Why USA doing all this after using pakistan in Afghanistan war


Hey! to tell U the truth US gone crazy cuz he is getting slow death from his economy and couldn't do anything against China for the last 10 years...Their trained Alqaida has been exposed by Pakistan military that is infact the secret military wing of the CIA working against Pakistan, Russia and China....Pakistan military killed all their active field agents in the fight and the rest couldn't find no refuge here has to run back to the cover of US/NATO.... next two more years US will completely fall down economically as well as militarily.... .... they are seeing their slow death within the very near future, couldn't find no cure for it .....Alhamdolillah!.........

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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> i actually agree with this statement from our fake pakistani friend
> 
> it seems like the people of pakistan are all willing die hard keyboard martyrs, because provocation can have its draw backs, i doubt russia will really do something so provocative because of the high stakes, they are just using leverage, DONT GET EXCITED.



I would have thanked your post, but your first statement prevented me from doing that. 

I am not fake.

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## regular

Mercenary said:


> If only Pakistan was smart and knew how to use USA for its own purposes.
> 
> Instead of buying Arms and short term gains from USA, Pakistan should get USA to commit to long term projects and infrastructure development in Pakistan and set up joint weapons research and development with Pakistan the way Turkey does where USA makes F-16's.


I guess U so naive about the US even U living in Canada...These things has been tried by the General Musharraf for such kinda joint venture and cooporation but what happened they backstabbed him....Now they got themselves into trouble cuz they were never sincere with us other than backstabbing us all the time......Musharraf was very sincere guy with them but unluckily they intentionally lost him......


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## Jon Snow

AstanoshKhan said:


> Repercussion?
> 
> What kind of mindset is that? they come and kills you, and you're worried about the repercussions. If we were to worry about the repercussions, why do we have this military in first place?



If you act without thinking about repercussions you are being stupid. simple as that. Its a bad situation for you guys - you dont have any good options available - dont make it worse for you.

As to why you have a military - a military is supposed to be first and foremost a deterrent - if a major war breaks out then the military has already failed.


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## I M Sikander

Mercenary said:


> If only Pakistan was smart and knew how to use USA for its own purposes.
> 
> Instead of buying Arms and short term gains from USA, Pakistan should get USA to commit to long term projects and infrastructure development in Pakistan and set up joint weapons research and development with Pakistan the way Turkey does where USA makes F-16's.



WHat rubbish, Y should USA help Pakistan. Hum aus ka damaad lagtay hein kya? 

Both Pakistan and US are milking and humiliating each other. Unfortunately US and Pakistan has never been friends. PAK-US relationship is like *Mutta Marriage.* (Jab tak chalta hai kaam, tab tak milta rehta hai hum koo apna daam)


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## Emmie

Mercenary said:


> I am not sure how precise those locations are.
> 
> Information is still very raw at this moment as actually what happened.
> 
> There are reports that the Taliban deliberately caused this border clash by launching attacks close to the Pakistani posts in the hopes that NATO could cause friendly fire casualties.
> 
> *But again, all of this needs to be investigated*.



And who is going to investigate, CENTCOM? Well, considering the past record of Americans I have no faith in them.. Remember how the most pious and noble president of USA stated on national media that Raymond Davis was a diplomat and he deserved immunity? I doubt any pellucid investigation if USA/NATO conducts it. Its like asking a criminal to judge his/her own case.

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## La ResistanceZ

What the hell it looks like Pakistan has given them 2 bases.






Watch from 0:00 to 2:21.


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## Irfan Baloch

NATO is quoting an Afghan &#8220;border policeman&#8221; who saw that the fire was coming from the Pakistani posts.
Hence air support was called in


*Question*: where was this border policeman standing? On the order or was part of the team that was inside Pakistan? 

*Question*: did he see fire coming from both posts? If yes then I say he got some super vision that is able to see 2 different check posts miles apart and from few kilometres away from his position.

*Question*: if the fire was only coming from one psot then why the other post was attacked too? Its on the premise if the NATO excuse is bought.

The other NATO statement is that the border is poorly marked.

*Question*: is their equipment and training also poor that they were unable to realise that they were deep inside Pakistan?

*Question*: did the pilots know what they were attacking? Did the mission HQ actually sent them on purpose to destroy the posts as suggested by the DGMO of Pakistan army?

*Question*: if the attack was unintentional as the NATO claims and they were loured into Pakistani posts by Taliban then did they forget the gradients of the Pakistani check posts in the heat of the moment?

*Question*: does NATO acknowledge the communications by Pakistanis to call off the attacks since they were attacking Pakistanis? If they do, does that not negate their claim that the attack was unintentional?


*Question*: why did the NATO decide that attacking both posts was necessary if their intention was not to destroy Pakistani posts and their story of chasing Taliban is to be bought? isn&#8217;t it odd and a consciences that they decided to attack the places where there were Pakistani designated check posts?


*My guess is by 23rd of December this will be NATO&#8217;s finding.*

The ISAF/ ANA were chasing Taliban and there was fire coming from where Pakistani positions were. Since the border is poorly marked so the perusing forces didn&#8217;t know a@ss from the elbow and relied on an Afghan border policeman who (location classified and adjusted to suit the story) decided that the fire was coming from 1 or 2 posts that were 2.5 KM inside Pakistan. From his genius a tactical situation arose and on that bases the air strikes were called in and they engaged one of the check post. And then they continued with the other post too where they received some retaliatory fire but destroyed that too.


So NATO is not at fault and neither the NATO commanders not the pilots can be blamed because.

1. An Afghan border policeman said that the fire was coming from Pakistan
2. The border is poorly marked .
3. Taliban could have led the helicopters / ISAF troops to Pakistani posts.
4. When the Pakistani posts came under attack they fired back so they had to be stopped.

I think, Pakistan army should have joined the investigation so that there is less chance of a cover up, unless if Pakistan army has evidence beyond doubt that the attack was premeditated and the posts were remarked for destruction in full knowledge that they were of Pakistan army and that&#8217;s why all radio communication was ignored and the attack continued on not one but both posts.

if that is true then expose NATO to the rest of the world and prepare for any similar future attacks like this.
reduce the diplomatic ties, break-up military cooperation and officer exchange/ training program (like command & staff, Gunnies staff etc).

order the closure of all CIA offices and seek the agents and deport them. Permanently stop the NATO supplies.
reduce the cooperation to the level of Turkey or even less and become a passive supporter of Afghan peaceful settlement.
This is the best Pakistan can do. If NATO doesn&#8217;t repeat that but if it repeats the attack then it should defend itself with all its force.

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## Dil Pakistan

I think in one way Pakistan can use this attack in its favour. 

There are a lot of simmering emotions in Pakistan tribal areas against Pakistan in the recent years. This operation was (partly) to teach PA a lesson that if you don't do operation in North Waziristan then this is what you will get. 

We can now propogate this our tribal areas that we (PA) got hit because we refused to attack our brothers.

This can help us to bring our brothers in fold.


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## Irfan Baloch

Dil Pakistan said:


> I think in one way Pakistan can use this attack in its favour.
> 
> There are a lot of simmering emotions in Pakistan tribal areas against Pakistan in the recent years. This operation was (partly) to teach PA a lesson that if you don't do operation in North Waziristan then this is what you will get.
> 
> We can now propogate this our tribal areas that we (PA) got hit because we refused to attack our brothers.
> 
> This can help us to bring our brothers in fold.



sorry, the tribal population doesnt have a short term memory like the ones that is bobarded with fox news and CNN propoganda.
Tribals might forgive but will never forget.

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## Peregrine

To complete the title 
NATO Kills 28 Pakistani Soldiers in Unprovoked Night Attack. While, the Pakistani military and civil establishment is mulling over, what to extract out of Americans as a consequence of this ordeal, before the normal business kicks off.

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## Kaniska

Even Indian dont mind if Russian can create an leverage with Pakistan by supplying some ammunition.Ultimately even Russians should know that although India has been facilitated by US but still then India is not in USA lap altogether for last 65 years as Pakistan is right now....I believe Russians are intelligent enough to understand..

I think Russia is just trying to take advantage of the situation rather then alligning with Pak's intrest...Who knows...If US backs out of europe missile defence plan then Russia will make an another turn around to allow tranist fascility....


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## lionheartsalahudin

Well guys I think the equipment lying here on trucks,which nato is expecting to get after the border opens and our gvt is going to open the border after this drama and calm people down,anyways that equipment and whatever supplies nato trucks are carrying through pak we Pakistanis can pillage them surely most of our house holds have ak-47s lets check our roads if we find a single truck with nato equipment burn it or better if that equipment is captured smuggled (as our gvt won&#8217;t allow sale of nato equipment their masters )and sold to iran and the cash returns should be used to make a secret pakistan&#8217;s martyr&#8217;s fund to support the families of martyrs.

And someone take care of former embassador haqani for once and for all ,some how it seems this was to divert public attention from him.


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## Safriz

NATO to Retrain All Troops in Afghanistan in Protecting Civilians | News | English

to all those who have more faith in NATO than god....pleas read the above article.
NATO has been sending untrained/undertrained personnel to one of the most difficult and volatile war zone of the world...
no wonder those silly billies cause unnecessary loss of life every day...
thats even worse than terrorists....

in urdu this is called "bandarr kay haath mein bandooq"

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## Emmie

Mercenary said:


> idiot remarks removed from quoteI?



When nothing left you brought in this totally irrelevant stuff.. Can I ask you which journalist are you talking about? Saleem Shahzad? Does his assassination have any connection to relations with USA? Comeon we have lost 28 soldiers in an unprovoked attack and you consider it a ******* tiny thing.

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## patna_ke_presley

Russian will do good bargain for NDN as Russian care of missile shields not Pakistan. Also, US has third route option as Georgia-Azerbaijan-Kazakhastan-Uzbekistan.


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## President Camacho

safriz said:


> NATO to Retrain All Troops in Afghanistan in Protecting Civilians | News | English
> 
> to all those who have more faith in NATO than god....pleas read the above article.
> *NATO has been sending untrained/undertrained personnel to one of the most difficult and volatile war zone of the world...*
> no wonder those silly billies cause unnecessary loss of life every day...
> thats even worse than terrorists....
> 
> in urdu this is called "bandarr kay haath mein bandooq"



I hope you understand the meaning of *re*training.

Now please tell us, how many armies in this world actually keep themselves updated on whether their soldiers need to be trained again and again on regular basis?

You aren't that good at it... j/k man, you are pretty good


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## J.Tariq

Gen John Allen responsible for NATO attack on Pak check post: Military leadership
Gen John Allen responsible for NATO attack on Pak check post: Military leadership | National | South Asian News Agency


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## PWFI

Time to kill Dogs in afghanistan !

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## Omar1984

*China backs Pakistan's efforts in safeguarding independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity: FM*


BEIJING, Nov. 28 (Xinhua) -- Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said Monday that China will consistently support Pakistan's efforts in safeguarding national independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Yang made the remarks in a phone call with Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar concerning NATO bombing on two Pakistani border posts in a northwest tribal area bordering Afghanistan early Saturday morning.

Twenty-four Pakistani soldiers were killed and 13 others injured in the NATO action.

Yang said China was deeply shocked by the incident, noting that all countries and international organizations should earnestly respect Pakistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity.

He also called for a thorough investigation of the incident.

The two ministers also exchanged views on China-Pakistan relations and issues of common concern. 


China backs Pakistan's efforts in safeguarding independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity: FM


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## Safriz

President Camacho said:


> I hope you understand the meaning of *re*training.
> 
> Now please tell us, how many armies in this world actually keep themselves updated on whether their soldiers need to be trained again and again on regular basis?
> 
> You aren't that good at it... j/k man, you are pretty good


 
you commented without reading the news...
the need of retraining was due to the coplaints from afghan government that NATO troops fail to save civilians in their operations and preventable loss of life is not being stopped..
isnt this the first lesson for any person who is given a gun that they should know how to differentiate between avtarget and a non target....an agressir and a passer by and should have control on their nerves to stop being trigger happy.
none of these basic qualities have been shown by NATO and ISAF troops..and that means they are severely undertrained.
the receny attack on pakistani checkpost is by NATOs own admission a result of their troops failing to identify the real target...or just got angry and shot dead 28 ally soldiers.
such a monumental incompetance us unheard of and even more dangerous when we consider that these unreliable untrained men/women have some of the most sophisticated and most lethal weapons in the world.
that way they are dangerous and should be kept away .
such people who cant read maps and cant identify a well established wrll marked military check.post should not be given even firecrackers and shouldnt be allowed near guns..
if NATO is sending such incompetent soldiers to wars...they are a threat to world peace.
not being racist here but only one picture comes to my mind .
http://images.epilogue.net/users/megaflow/bigger-guns.jpg

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## Hulk

Giving details of the incident, he said after the
midnight on November 26, 2 to 3 helicopters
appeared and started engaging Volcano post
breaking down all communication systems.
In response, the Boulder post engaged
helicopters with anti aircraft guns and all
available weapons. The helicopter also attacked
the post.
He said all channels of coordination methods
were immediately activated.
&#8220;We informed them about the attack. But, the
helicopters reappeared and also engaged the
Boulder post.&#8221;


www.dawn.com/2011/11/29/standard-procedures-violated-in-unprovoked-nato-strike-dgmo.html

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## waz

This must be giving the jitters to the bigwigs in the Pentagon. It's well known the US doesn't trust the Russians as far as they can spit. The whole reliance on the "Northern route" rests on what mood the Russians are in, a situation that is not acceptable to NATO and far more precarious than the arrangement they had with Pakistan . The reality is they want the Pakistan route back.

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## President Camacho

safriz said:


> you commented without reading the news...
> the need of retraining was due to the coplaints from afghan government that NATO troops fail to save civilians in their operations and preventable loss of life is not being stopped..
> isnt this the first lesson for any person who is given a gun that they should know how to differentiate between avtarget and a non target....an agressir and a passer by and should have control on their nerves to stop being trigger happy.
> none of these basic qualities have been shown by NATO and ISAF troops..and that means they are severely undertrained.
> the receny attack on pakistani checkpost is by NATOs own admission a result of their troops failing to identify the real target...or just got angry and shot dead 28 ally soldiers.
> such a monumental incompetance us unheard of and even more dangerous when we consider that these unreliable untrained men/women have some of the most sophisticated and most lethal weapons in the world.
> that way they are dangerous and should be kept away .
> such people who cant read maps and cant identify a well established wrll marked military check.post should not be given even firecrackers and shouldnt be allowed near guns..
> if NATO is sending such incompetent soldiers to wars...they are a threat to world peace.
> not being racist here but only one picture comes to my mind .



I actually read it all before replying to your post.

The retraining was decided because Hamid Karzai often complained about civilian casualties (rightly so). It in no way means the troops were "untrained/undertrained", as you pointed out in your post.

The term retraining in itself states that the troops were trained but now need to be trained again, hence the "re" part.

I know you are not being racist, and I hope you understand too that I am not defending their actions against civilians that have many times ended in deplorable consequences. 

However, you are pointing your allegations at the entire NATO, and wrongly accusing them of sending 'untrained' troops in the field. What else should you expect to be my reply when I see you have inserted your own, unrelated terms in there?

And that's a pretty funny pic, nothing racist about it lol

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## Hulk

From so far what is present in public, it appears that NATO is on wrong side, but I am unable to digest why they will attack like told. I am strong supporter of US because I work here and want to have loyalties right. But still Pakistan's story is stronger.

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## waz

desiman said:


> Pakistan's role in Afghanistan is overplayed and over-hyped to start with. Its actually better for Afghanistan that Pakistan stays out of the country and more progressive and modern nations move in to initiate growth and development. The only factor that plays in favor of Pakistan is its geographical proximity to Afghanistan but that does not make Pakistan the most important player in the country's future. Countries with a strong economy and international reach such as US, India and China are far more crucial for Afghanistan. Again boycotting these talks show Pakistan's immaturity in handling diplomatic relations. Infact showing up at these talking voicing your point of view would have been much better for Pakistan.



Yes the country that shares a major geographical boundary with Afghanistan, has millions of its citizens retain close blood and cultural ties with Afghanistan, is host to the second largest population of Afghans on the planet, has influence over the most powerful rebel factions operating in Afghanistan, is central for the transport of trade and other essential items to Afghanistan, it's role is overplayed? 

Unbelievable......Well the Afghans don't share any of your sentient,their leader Karzai is anxious about the whole thing.

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## mr42O

Nato attacked Pakistanies in hope of Pakistan will answer back. Americans will find a reason to attack Pakistan as it cant do as today. When i mean attack i mean full scaled war in Waziristan etc.

Why Pakistani airforce wasnt sent in is because lets say full scale war is started Pakistani air force fuel which is blocked by Americans ships in arabian sea. If i am not wrong Pakistan cant get from Iran either. So in other words we are surrounded by enemy who want us to answer.

What i read in Indian newspapir India is fully prepared with isrealies to take out Pakistani defence and take out our nukes. Indian Isrealie lobby is working to get rid of our nukes before USA leave Afghanistan. They think they will never get this chance again.

Thats reason Pakistan did not completly cut of ties with Afgan taliban.*IF* they have any connection at all. I fully understand them now.

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## mr42O

praful said:


> India won't allow that



lol hahaha. India ke bap ka mhal he ?


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## The HBS Guy

How insightful!


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## hunter_hunted

waz said:


> Yes the country that shares a major geographical boundary with Afghanistan, has millions of its citizens retain close blood and cultural ties with Afghanistan, is host to the second largest population of Afghans on the planet, has influence over the most powerful rebel factions operating in Afghanistan, is central for the transport of trade and other essential items to Afghanistan, it's role is overplayed?
> 
> Unbelievable......Well the Afghans don't share any of your sentient,their leader Karzai is anxious about the whole thing.


 
Brother just ignore his statement, after all he is Indian. Yesterday their master was soviet union and today its America tomorrow who knows, may b they don't even exist.

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## mr42O

The HBS Guy said:


> How insightful!



did any one asked u ? not welcome here go to momy daddy


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## Omar1984

*OIC, Russia, China put weight behind Pakistan*


BEIJING (Agencies)  Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), China and Russia rallied behind Pakistan expressed deep shock over Nato airstrikes that left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead and called for an investigation into the incident.

China is deeply shocked at the incident and expresses strong concerns and deep condolences to the victims in Pakistan, foreign ministry spokesman Hong Lei told a regular news briefing. China believes that Pakistans independent sovereignty and territory should be respected and that this incident should be earnestly investigated and handled in a serious manner.

While conveying its heartfelt condolences to the bereaved families and the government of Pakistan, OIC Secretary General Professor Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu said the attacks are indeed serious violation of Pakistans sovereignty and are totally unacceptable, an OIC statement said on its website. Ihsanoglu assured Pakistan of the continued solidarity of the OIC and expressed his expectation for the prevention of any recurrence of such incidents. The Secretary General then urged Nato to avoid any action that could further complicate the already dire security situation in the region, the statement said. Russia also called for a meticulous investigation into a Nato raid in Pakistan that killed 24 soldiers, calling strikes that violate state sovereignty unacceptable.

Leaders of Nato in Afghanistan should carry out a meticulous investigation into this incident, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told his Pakistani counterpart Hina Rabbani Khar in a telephone call. Violations of state sovereignty, including in the cases of planning and carrying out anti-terrorist operations, are unacceptable, he said, according to a statement from his office.




OIC, Russia, China put weight behind Pakistan | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

---------- Post added at 04:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------

*China backs Pakistan's efforts in safeguarding independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity: FM*


BEIJING, Nov. 28 (Xinhua) -- Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said Monday that China will consistently support Pakistan's efforts in safeguarding national independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Yang made the remarks in a phone call with Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar concerning NATO bombing on two Pakistani border posts in a northwest tribal area bordering Afghanistan early Saturday morning.

Twenty-four Pakistani soldiers were killed and 13 others injured in the NATO action.

Yang said China was deeply shocked by the incident, noting that all countries and international organizations should earnestly respect Pakistan's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity.

He also called for a thorough investigation of the incident.

The two ministers also exchanged views on China-Pakistan relations and issues of common concern. 


China backs Pakistan's efforts in safeguarding independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity: FM

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## Bhairava

NATO kills 28 soldiers on Pak-Afghan border and the blame is on RAW-Mossad.

Well done. Pakistan will never improve.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the same rebels which NATOs have been begging Pakistanis to bring to negotiating table

ultimately -the biggest stake-holder and biggest game-changer can only be Afghans themself....however, for reasons stated above --- it is already established why Pakistan SHOULD and DOES have more say in these matters. 

we see some of these arrogant indians (most who dont even know the history or realities in Afghanistan) with their attitude that they can bring miracles to Afghanistan with their tidbit role -- a country with whom they dont even share a border and a country in which indian have also supported warlord factions.....

the duplicity and double standards and hypocrisy are entertaining at best

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## mr42O

Bhairava said:


> NATO kills 28 soldiers on Pak-Afghan border and the blame is on RAW-Mossad.
> 
> Well done. Pakistan will never improve.



lol were did i said raw ????? first of all no indian are welcome here with there stupid comments.

and about Indian and Isrealies want america attack Pakistan before leaving Afghanistan is reported by ur own newspapir....


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## The HBS Guy

mr42O said:


> did any one asked u ? not welcome here go to momy daddy



Why so serious?

I only congratulated you on your scholarly insight.

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## Omar1984

*No excuse to violate Pakistan sovereignty: Russia*





Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. &#8212; File Photo by AFP


MOSCOW: Russia&#8217;s foreign minister, commenting on the Nato cross-border air attack that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, said on Monday that a nation&#8217;s sovereignty should always be upheld, even when hunting &#8220;terrorists&#8221;.

&#8220;The Russian Foreign Minister&#8230; emphasised the unacceptability of violating the sovereignty of states, including during the planning and carrying out of counter-terrorist operations,&#8221; the ministry said in a statement.


No excuse to violate Pakistan sovereignty: Russia | World | DAWN.COM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




*Foreign Minister Khar briefs Russian counterpart on NATO/ISAF attack, DCC decisions*

ISLAMABAD, Nov 28 (APP): Foreign Minister Ms Hina Rabbani Khar spoke to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Monday evening and briefed him on the unprovoked NATO/ISAF attack on Pakistani territory and the decisions taken by the Defence Committee of the Cabinet.

She underscored that besides being a gross violation of established international norms, such attacks pose a threat to regional peace and stability as well.
The Russian Foreign Minister expressed sympathy for the loss of lives and injury, as well as complete understanding of Pakistan&#8217;s position, according to a press release issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs here.
The Russian Foreign Minister underscored that Pakistan and Russia were partners in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization and also partners in promoting regional cooperation. He stressed on the need of NATO thoroughly investigating the incident. 

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Foreign Minister Khar briefs Russian counterpart on NATO/ISAF attack, DCC decisions

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## Karachiite

waz said:


> Yes the country that shares a major geographical boundary with Afghanistan, has millions of its citizens retain close blood and cultural ties with Afghanistan, is host to the second largest population of Afghans on the planet, has influence over the most powerful rebel factions operating in Afghanistan, is central for the transport of trade and other essential items to Afghanistan, it's role is overplayed?
> 
> Unbelievable......Well the Afghans don't share any of your sentient,their leader Karzai is anxious about the whole thing.



Chah gaye!!!!!!!!


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## Mabs

Mercenary said:


> If these laser guided missiles hit with pinpoint accruacy then you must support the Drone attacks which are taking out those terroists in FATA?
> 
> Pakistani terrority is used by these terrorists to launch attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
> 
> As for those posts. They were recently established after Pakistan conducted a military operation in the region and took the region
> back from Taliban terrorists.
> 
> USA didn't use drones in this operation. Afghan commandos called in air strikes saying they were being bombed from locations within Pakistan. US send in Apache Gunships which fired missiles which killed our soldiers
> 
> So all of this needs to be determined in a through, joint and impartial investigation.



Your post is presumptuous and contradictory to the core. On one hand you keep asking to wait for the findings to come out, while on the other you keep towing the Afghan/NATO's line like it is the word of God.

I never said that drones only kill militants, US does, and that too with divine conviction. You are clearly outa your depth here when you make statments like the 'posts were recently established' and the 'communication channels between the PA and ISAF are not effective,' how could you possibly be privy to such details - please do tell.

There is a hotline between the PA and the ISAF to prevent the kind of shitstorm that we are in today. Any new development is promptly shared to keep the war efforts streamlined - be it new or old. FYI, these were the company headquarters made out of concrete; structures like these don't come up in a day.

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## Emmie

I second this move, why would we attend a conference for a country who's territory is being used against us.. Above all we already gave our view pertaining agenda of the talks in turkey last time so no point going for photo session.

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## Omar1984

*OIC condemns NATO attacks on Pakistani boarder posts* 

JEDDAH, Nov 29 (KUNA) -- Secretary General of The Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) Akmal Al-Deen Ogli strongly condemned Monday the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) attacks launched recently on two border posts in Pakistan, which resulted in a number of casualties.
Ogli said in remarks to the media that such attacks are considered as a serious violation of the sovereignty of Pakistan, stressing on the continuous OIC support of Pakistan, expressing his hope that such incidents will not occur again.
He called on the NATO to avoid any actions that would contribute in worsening the deteriorated situation in the region.(end) yms.lb KUNA 291016 Nov 11NNNN

ÙÙÙØ§ : OIC condemns NATO attacks on Pakistani boarder posts - Ø§ÙØ´Ø¤ÙÙ Ø§ÙØ³ÙØ§Ø³ÙØ© - 29/11/2011



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



*OIC urges NATO to avoid attacks on Pakistan*

ISLAMABAD, Nov. 28 (Xinhua) -- The major organization of Islamic countries on Monday strongly condemned the recent NATO attacks against two Pakistani border posts which reportedly killed 24 Pakistani military personnel and left many others injured, according to its statement.

In a statement released by the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) on its website, the OIC Secretary General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu said that the attacks are indeed serious violation of Pakistan's sovereignty and are totally unacceptable.

He assured Pakistan of the continued solidarity of the OIC and expressed his expectation for the prevention of any recurrence of such incidents.

The Secretary General also urged NATO to avoid any action that could further complicate the already dire security situation in the region.

NATO fighter jets and helicopters struck two Pakistani border posts in Pakistan's northwest tribal area of Mohmand Agency which borders Afghanistan early Saturday morning, killing 24 Pakistani troops and injuring 13 others.

The attack sparked angry reaction in Pakistan and the government closed NATO supply line and asked the United States to vacate a strategic air base in the country's southwest Balochistan province.

NATO and the United States had expressed regret over the losses of lives in the attacks, but the Pakistani army Monday rejected their regrets and said the leadership would suggest more steps in relationship with NATO. 

OIC urges NATO to avoid attacks on Pakistan - People's Daily Online

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*OIC urges NATO to avoid attacks on Pakistan*

The major organizations of Islamic countries Monday strongly condemned the recent NATO attacks against two Pakistani border posts which reportedly killed 24 Pakistani military personnel and left many others injured.

"While conveying his heartfelt condolences to the bereaved families and the government of Pakistan," the Secretary General of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), Professor Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu said.

NATO fighter jets and helicopters struck two Pakistani border posts in Mohmand tribal region Friday night and killed 24 soldiers. Pakistan army says that 13 more soldiers were injured in the unprovoked attack.

The attack sparked angry reaction in Pakistan and the government closed NATO supply line and asked the U.S. to vacate a strategic air base in Balochistan province.

NATO and the U.S. had expressed regret over the losses in the attacks but the Pakistan army Monday rejected their regrets and said the leadership would suggest more steps in relationship with NATO.

The OIC Secretary General noted that the attacks are indeed serious violation of Pakistan's sovereignty and are totally unacceptable, an OIC statement said on its website.

He assured Pakistan of the continued solidarity of the OIC and expressed his expectation for the prevention of any recurrence of such incidents.

The Secretary General then urged NATO to avoid any action that could further complicate the already dire security situation in the region, the statement said.


OIC urges NATO to avoid attacks on Pakistan | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## mr42O

I just read that on another forum that Americans has started to pack there stuff to leave air base. Any one can confirm ?


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## mr42O

Chinese newspapers back Pakistan over Nato air strike | World news | guardian.co.uk

Chinese newspapers back Pakistan over Nato air strike - video

China Daily and the popular tabloid the Global Times expressed strong doubts that the air strike was unintentional. Nato called the killings a "tragic, unintended incident", and US officials said Nato and American investigations will determine what happened in the attack in north-west Pakistan

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## Omar1984

*Nato forces repeated attack on Pak army officials: DG MO*


ISLAMABAD: Director General Military Operations Maj. Gen. Ashfaq Nadeem Tuesday said that Nato forces had once again opened fire on Pak army officers who, fortunately, escaped unhurt, Geo News reported.

Briefing journalists here at General Headquarters (GHQ) on Nato attack, the DG Military Operations said that Pak army officers came under armed attack by Nato forces while they were inspecting the Pakistani check posts struck earlier in Mohmad Agency.

He said that investigations conducted into the Nato strike that killed 24 army officials and personnel so far confirmed that the attack was unprovoked and intentional.

"Nato officials were aware of the fact that Pakistani check posts were present in the area," he added.


Nato forces repeated attack on Pak army officials: DG MO

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## The HBS Guy

If the attack is portrayed as 'not unintentional', it would bring further infamy to the Pakistani Army. 

The sensible thing would be to just call it 'unintentional' and move on.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

> An unprovoked Nato helicopter raid killed 24 Pakistani troops in the wee hours on Saturday, while they were asleep in a checkpost in Mohmand Agency. The reaction of the Pakistani people continues to be strong, with protests which started the morning after continuing across the country on Sunday. These protests have coincided with international protests, thus showing that the incident has shown not just Pakistan, but the rest of the world, the cost of being a friend of the USA. The international condemnation is also proof, if any was needed, that the incident is a serious violation, with the OIC and China joining the chorus of condemnation, and supporting Pakistan.
> 
> The USA and Nato have tried to put a positive spin on the incident, not because the Nato choppers were right, but because Pakistan ended its military cooperation, and that cooperation is necessary to the continued occupation of Afghanistan by its troops. Among those calling Pakistan in an attempt to have those steps reversed were US Secretaries of Defence Leon Panetta and of State Hillary Clinton, US Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Chairman Gen Martin Dempsey, ISAF Commander Gen John Allen and Nato Secretary General Fogh Rasmussen. Now it is Pakistans turn to turn down these blandishments, and refuse to continue an alliance with such a high cost in its soldiers blood. The excuse that the incident took place because the helicopters were chasing insurgents should be exposed as the lie it is. The excuse merely feeds into groundless fears of the Haqqani Network, and ignores the fact that the place of occurrence was in a pacified area, where let alone the Haqqani Network, no resistance fighters were operating. It is almost obvious that, the Nato military machine facing defeat in Afghanistan at the hands of an ill-equipped and badly armed opposition, is groping for excuses to explain away its mistakes, which are encouraged by its arrogance.
> 
> Pakistan has a record of giving way to Nato blandishments. The last time it shut down supplies, last year, it re-opened them after accepting Nato apologies. It should not make the same mistake again, but should stand firm. In fact, it should go a step further, and end the alliance with the USA, end all participation in the USAs War on Terror, and make it clear to all comers, especially the USA and other Nato members that Pakistan will brook no further interference or foreign presence in the region, especially a presence which is so deadly to indigenous forces. The government should not ignore the fact that the outrage against the killing of its soldiers is so strong that any attempt to carry on with business as usual, will turn public attention (and anger) from Nato, where it is at the moment, to the government. Beset by crises as it is, that it cannot afford.




Natos blandishments | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## La ResistanceZ

Whats the point they still have jacobabad airbase.




(Reuters) - The United States is preparing to accede to Pakistani demands that it vacate a remote air base in Pakistan used for drone flights, but the move is not expected to have a significant impact on operations against militants, U.S. government sources say.

Washington is treading lightly not to aggravate an already fragile relationship that was bruised further by a NATO attack on a Pakistani military outpost last weekend that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers near the Afghanistan border.

Pakistan demanded that the United States leave the Shamsi Air Base within 15 days and blocked ground supply routes through Pakistan to U.S. forces in Afghanistan.

Three sources, who declined to be identified because of the issue's sensitivity, said U.S. planning is under way to leave the base, a remote facility in Baluchistan that has been a point of contention.

The cross-border incident escalated tensions between the two countries and the U.S. military is conducting an investigation to find out exactly what happened on the ground.

The moves by the Pakistanis to block ground supply routes and the air base were not expected to significantly hinder U.S. operations.

One U.S. government source said the United States has spent months preparing for a possible eviction from the Pakistan base by building up other drone launching and staging capability.

Earlier this year, after the U.S. raid that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, some Pakistani officials demanded that Washington vacate the Shamsi facility.

At the time, however, U.S. officials said that American personnel would remain at the base and would continue to conduct drone flights in pursuit of militants.

But in one concession, the United States stopped conducting lethal drone operations from that base and limited operations to surveillance flights.

U.S. officials believe that this time Pakistan appears much more resolute about carrying out the eviction threat. Vacating the air base was seen more as an inconvenience rather than a critical blow to drone operations which the United States also conducts from Afghanistan and possibly elsewhere.

The unmanned aerial vehicles may have a longer flight from Afghanistan but they are capable of hovering overhead for hours as they seek to spot suspicious activity and follow militants.

U.S. officials are reluctant to openly talk about drone operations because they are considered a covert CIA activity.

General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the U.S. military's Joint Chiefs of Staff, in London this week addressed the Shamsi issue without acknowledging the use of drones at the base.

"There are other options for stationing aircraft and other resources around the region," Dempsey told Britain's ITV News.

"It's a serious blow in the sense that the Pakistani government felt that they needed to deny us the use of a base that we've been using for many years," he said. "And so it's serious in that regard. It's not debilitating militarily."

BLOCKED SUPPLY ROUTE

The United States also has to deal with the blocking of the ground supply route through Pakistan to Afghanistan.

Congressman C.A. "Dutch" Ruppersberger, the senior Democrat on the House of Representatives intelligence committee, said that route accounts for less than half the supplies for international forces in Afghanistan and the military has contingency plans.

"We have a large distribution network to make sure that coalition forces are well-stocked," he told Reuters. "It's not going to affect our ability to follow through and execute our mission."

Yet alternate supply routes such as the northern distribution network are not a perfect substitute and there are concerns that the cost of keeping soldiers fed, armed and fueled without use of Pakistani roads would be excessive.

Ruppersberger, who visited Pakistan to meet with officials after U.S. forces killed bin Laden, said the relationship was poor at that point.

"We were starting to improve in the last month or so and then all of a sudden this unfortunate incident occurred, and now we're right back to where we were again," he said.

"It is to the advantage of both countries to work together," Ruppersberger said. "In the end that will come. It's about relationships, it's about trust, and unfortunately that hasn't been there for a while."

Ruppersberger would not comment on the Shamsi departure.

STILL INVESTIGATING

U.S. officials said there is still considerable confusion about details of the latest border incident.

Wary of further damaging an already delicate situation, U.S. officials were reluctant to speculate about what happened before getting the results of military investigations.

"The focus of the administration at this point is on trying to find ways to show Pakistan that we're serious about investigating the incident and forging a cooperative relationship in the future," a U.S. official said on condition of anonymity.

"No one at this point has the complete narrative on what happened," Pentagon spokesman George Little said. "I think it's premature to articulate the facts of this incident."

A U.S. government source familiar with counter-terrorism operations along the Afghan-Pakistan border said the latest incident apparently grew out of an Afghan-U.S. special forces commando patrol operation.

Some early information from the region suggests that at some point the Afghan-U.S. patrol team came under fire from what they believed were militants. They then called in an airstrike, which hit a Pakistani military outpost.

Investigations into the incident now are trying to determine if the militants deliberately took up positions near the Pakistani outpost to confuse American and Afghan forces or whether Pakistani forces at the border outpost were somehow complicit in initially firing on the Afghan-U.S. patrol.

A U.S. military official, without commenting on details of the current incident, said the Taliban had previously tried to provoke cross-border fighting between Pakistani soldiers and NATO forces but problems were headed off by cross-border communication.

"It is something we've seen previously, yes. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened," the official said, without confirming anything about the recent incident.

Another key question is what happened to cross-border communication systems set up to avoid this kind of confusion.

The border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is badly marked, and disputed in many stretches. The terrain of steep mountains, dense forest and sparse population provides hideouts for militants who can move freely along the frontier.

The Pakistani and Afghan militaries and NATO-led alliance have tried to limit deadly mistakes by establishing communication links including a hotline to check on potential targets or warn of possible friendly fire.

The Pakistani military says it has given maps with permanent outposts clearly marked to NATO and the Afghan army. It also said there is a hotline between the two sides, but declined to say if it was used the evening of the attack.

A spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force said he was not aware of a hotline.

U.S. prepares to vacate Pakistan air base | Reuters


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## Mabs

Russia's on its own side. It has seen an opportunity to squeeze some leverage outa the US while it is apparently being pushed against the wall by Pakistan. Russia's acting like the dude who tries to crash a party where nobody likes him and gets booted/knocked out.


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## r3alist

if it was that important they wouldnt leave so easily.

am getting a hint of contrived drama.

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## Safriz

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...nit-carries-out-kill-or-capture-missions.html

so the american military does have dedicated assassins among their ranks..read yourself.


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## VelocuR

*BBC taken off air in Pakistan by cable operators
*

Popular British news channel, BBC World News was taken off air by a number of Pakistani cable television operators late on Tuesday after proclaiming *to &#8216;ban&#8217; the channel for airing anti-Pakistan programming* following a NATO air strike on a Pakistani border check post that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

The All Pakistan Cable Operators Association (APCOA), a body of cable tv operators, held a press briefing in Lahore where they demanded the country&#8217;s primary electronic media regulator, the Pakistan Electronic Media Regulatory Authority (PEMRA) to revoke landing rights to BBC.

APCOA chairman, Kamran Arain said* &#8220;we want to send them a strong message to stop this. If they don&#8217;t stop this, then it is our right to stop them,&#8221; *referring to pulling the channel off from their cable networks.

The operators say that the move is in response to a documentary broadcast by the channel, entitled Secret Pakistan.

*Other foreign TV channels found guilty of broadcasting &#8220;anti-Pakistan&#8221; content will also be blocked, they threatened.*

The BBC said it was deeply concerned by the move, and called for its channel to be speedily reinstated.

*&#8220;We condemn any action that threatens our editorial independence and prevents audiences from accessing our impartial international news service,&#8221;* a BBC spokesperson said.

&#8220;We would urge that BBC World News and other international news services are reinstated as soon as possible.&#8221;

However, the channel was off air soon after the APCOA press conference was over.

The source of the ban

*A two-part BBC documentary, &#8220;Secret Pakistan&#8220;, questioned the country&#8217;s commitment to tackling Taliban militancy. It furthered festering Pakistani anger towards the west after a NATO air stirke on a Pakistani border check post killed 24 soldiers.*

It argued that some in Pakistan were playing a double game, quoting US intelligence officials as saying that they acted as America&#8217;s ally in public while secretly training and arming the Taliban in Afghanistan.

*The decision to block BBC World News and other international news channels comes after a media uproar in Pakistan over a Nato air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops near the Afghan border at the weekend.*

Good, Pakistan started to act in the beginning......

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## The HBS Guy

^^ That documentary was aired over a month before this attack. It's been long time.


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## VelocuR

The HBS Guy said:


> ^^ That documentary was aired over a month before this attack. It's been long time.



Well actually, after the NATO helicopters attacked on Pakistan Checkposts, then BBC started to show anti-Pakistan propagandas, not only BBC. CNN and Fox also banned. 



> APCOA chairman, Kamran Arain said *&#8220;we want to send them a strong message to stop this. If they don&#8217;t stop this, then it is our right to stop them,&#8221; *



Hope you should be very happy at least.

------------------------------------------

*
NATO attack: Pakistan to boycott Bonn Conference on Afghanistan*







LAHORE: *Pakistan will boycott the Bonn Conference, scheduled for December 5 on Afghanistan&#8217;s future, to protest the cross-border NATO attack, an official said on Tuesday. The decision was taken at a cabinet meeting, chaired by Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani, in Lahore.*

During the meeting held at the Governor House, Gilani suspended the agenda to discuss the November 26 incident which killed at least 24 Pakistani soldiers.
*
Gilani has summoned a Joint Session of the Parliament on the NATO attack and the Memogate scandal on December 2 on the recommendations of the Parliamentary Committee on National Security.*

According to an official, the cabinet extended deepest condolences to the families of those who were killed in the cross-border attack.

Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar briefed the cabinet about the incident and the diplomatic efforts being made to highlight the violation of Pakistan&#8217;s territorial sovereignty.

*The cabinet agreed that unaliteral action like the Abbottabad incident and the cross-border attack were unacceptable.*

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## idune

if it were not important US would not sent UAE foreign minister for airbase. And for supply route US simply hedging to buy time and pursue it later. US knows this is not the time to push it. Also observe US offcials comments - they still showing arrogance and confidence that relation will go back to where it was. Question is would Pakistan fall for that?

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## VelocuR

About joint investigation incidents


> They said the inquiries into the June 2008, September 2010 and July 2011 incidents had no results either.



-----------------------
November 30, 2011
*Notice sent to US for vacating Shamsi airbase within 15 days: FM*







ISLAMABAD: Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said on Tuesday that in line with the decisions of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, *a notice has been sent to the United States *for vacating the Shamsi airbase within 15 days.

Terming the Nato/Isaf attack on border posts in Mohmand Agency as the breach of Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty and violation of international law, the Foreign Minister said, &#8220;time has come to review our relations.&#8221;

Talking to PTV, the Foreign Minister said Pakistan has supported the international community in the war against terrorism and has rendered great sacrifices.

She said Pakistan&#8217;s positive cooperation must be recognized at international level and should not be taken as its weakness.

The minister said Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty and territorial integrity must be respected at all cost.

She categorically *stated that the nation and the government would not tolerate such incidents in future.* *&#8220;We don&#8217;t want any aid or assistance, but we want to live with dignity and honour.&#8221;*

Khar said Pakistan wants complete clarity from the international community about its sovereignty.
*
She said that Pakistan&#8217;s attitude towards the international community has been positive and it wanted to move forward with honour and dignity.*

*&#8220;It is up to Pakistan&#8217;s political forces to evolve future strategy, keeping in view the current situation,&#8221; said the minister.*

*&#8220;It is for the first time that the decision to halt Nato supply was taken at the highest level,&#8221; she said.*

The foreign minister said the government&#8217;s focus was on preserving the national interests, adding, &#8220;We cannot sacrifice our national interests.&#8221;

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## idune

Next logical step for China and Russia to do is promptly induct Pakistan as full member of SCO. Which by the way is in card.

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## wilsonnadar

I think Pakistan has some hold, or leverage over Afghanistan, as long as it is part of US team. The day it stops supporting USA, USA will have no consideration for Pakistan. It will have a free run over Pakistan. Room for negotiation will be over. US has plan "B" for transporting its goods already. And before it leaves Afghanistan, it will make sure Afghanistan is NO MORE A LAND LOCKED COUNTRY. Mark my word. I know what kind of response I am going to get for this post. Reality sucks. It wont take much to divide Pakistan, IF USA WANTS. There is a story.One day Cobra was sitting on Shiva's neck, which is his place. Karuda was flying over him. The snake saw the karuda, and asked him, "hey how you doing? Karuda said, As long as everyone stay in their place everything is fine. The day you come down from your place, then I will show you, how am I doing. That was Karudas response. Any way, Hope Pakistan knows its limits, and play its card safely. End of the day ignorance is bliss.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> with flare drops ??


Would certainly not indicate Taliban movement (no airplanes to begin with), and would not indicate any sort of 'covert op' either, since flare drops would attract attention and are typically for observation.

If this had occurred on the border with India, given the significantly different relationship, the response would have been different.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

President Camacho said:


> The aforesaid report used to be here - http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-n...f-lies-by-Nato
> 
> No more... wonder why


Isn't that a second hand report?

I thought there was a report in the UK telegraph that quoted wounded soldiers directly.

Here it is:

_The attack, he said, came at about 2am. They counted four helicopters.
"Initially, we thought that the attackers were Taliban and we took positions to retaliate but then saw that at least four helicopters were shelling from above," he said from his bed at the Combined Military Hospital in Peshawar, where he was being treated for shrapnel injuries to his abdomen.
Hameedullah Wazir described a scene of chaos as an apparently indiscriminate rain of rockets exploded around the checkpoint, waking sleeping troops. He said the survivors simply ran.
"We didn't find time to respond as everything took place so quickly that we were unable to fight back," he said._

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Nato-attack-say-it-was-unprovoked-attack.html

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## isro2222

First of all why NATO attacked pakistan?.... Just like that?.... This is a game.... America got plan already. America knew how pakistan would react.... Pakistan acting same way america wants them to act (just the way they thought pakistan would react after an attack). What's american game plan?.... i think america wants an excuse to launch an attack on pakistan.... something might happened suddenly.... May be at night when most pakistanis are sleeping.... Am afraid that something is going on.... india tested missiles back to back.... America offer india missile sheild (who knows its already deployed). india moved sukhoi on pak border.... i think America and NATO got a plan.... and india too knows it.... Why would NATO attack pakistani soldiers.... Something must be going on.... It all happened after bin laden got killed and when sattelite show how pakistan moving nuke in tempo.... i think america scared that nukes might fall in wrong hand.... May be america was looking for an excuse for launching a war....

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## Majnun

luckyyy said:


> i think pakistan is not invited..
> 
> *The Bonn meeting is aimed at bringing together Western and regional leaders to map out a strategy for Afghanistan after the withdrawal of foreign combat forces in 2014*
> 
> does pakistan has the will or the resources to take up any constructive position in afganistan..no !




Pakistan is one of the regional powers. Think before you speak.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Spot on!
> 
> Add pics of a baby girl too for good measure, and it is evident that a psyops is in progress (from both sides).


You were calling for ISPR to be more effective were you not?

In terms of resorting to images of 'babies being kissed and children and widows mourning', Pakistan has a lot of catching up to do with the West, and especially the US, where soldiers and the military are treated like an infallible deity by the media.

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## Mercenary

Emmie said:


> When nothing left you brought in this totally irrelevant stuff.. Can I ask you which journalist are you talking about? Saleem Shahzad? Does his assassination have any connection to relations with USA? Comeon we have lost 28 soldiers in an unprovoked attack and you consider it a ******* tiny thing.



Here is why: You are saying that you cannot rely on CENTCOM for an investigation. I am saying that you cannot rely on Pakistani Authorities for their own investigation.

The truth is in the pudding.

---------- Post added at 06:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------




RaptorRX707 said:


> As your premium member, only 400 posts since 2006 ?
> 
> So you are defending Americans and NATO against Pakistan....who is white guy in your avatar, curious?
> 
> 
> Mod edit: Thats *Tony Soprano* from an American darma series



I post here on and off.

I mostly edit articles on Wikipedia.

But I have been busy with school and work to post here on a regular basis. 

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 PM ----------




Emmie said:


> His ID is *Mercenary*... This tells you everything.


 
I didn't want to add any numbers or special characters infront of my name and thus Mercenary was available. 

Please, don't get into a special psychological analysis on me based on my nick name.

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## Mercenary

Ranasikander said:


> WHat rubbish, Y should USA help Pakistan. Hum aus ka damaad lagtay hein kya?
> 
> Both Pakistan and US are milking and humiliating each other. Unfortunately US and Pakistan has never been friends. PAK-US relationship is like *Mutta Marriage.* (Jab tak chalta hai kaam, tab tak milta rehta hai hum koo apna daam)



Please write coherent statements. I don't respond to such poorly worded responses.


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## Mercenary

I thought USA left Shamsi Airbase long before that.

There was a big news in 2008, when Google Earth showed Shamsi Airbase lined with drones which caused the Pakistani leadership to tell the Americans to leave the base.


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## La ResistanceZ

r3alist said:


> if it was that important they wouldnt leave so easily.
> 
> am getting a hint of contrived drama.



As i have already said the USA has a second base in Pakistan jacobabad airbase.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You were calling for ISPR to be more effective were you not?
> 
> In terms of resorting to images of 'babies being kissed and children and widows mourning', *Pakistan has a lot of catching up to do with the West*, and especially the US, where soldiers and the military are treated like an infallible deity by the media.



More effective, yes, but *INTERNATIONALLY*, not on the already blinkered local population!

(nothing wrong with that either, as I already said, for _both _sides.)

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## unicorn

*Pakistans air space may be denied to US*


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has decided, for the time being, not to block US military use of its air space for over-flights into Afghanistan, but this could come within 15 days if bilateral diplomacy fails to relieve tensions over the Mohmand attacks, security experts say.

The government is currently reviewing the options available to it to demonstrate Pakistans vast leverage over their war in Afghanistan to the US and other members of the International Security Force, the experts said.

If there is another incident, or even a nasty drone attack, the air corridor could also go, said Simbal Khan, research director of the Institute of Strategic Studies Islamabad, a Foreign Office-funded think tank.

Towards the top of the options list is the use of preventive cross-border fire by reinforced border-based army units in Bajaur and Mohmand against future raids by Afghanistan-based militants of the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, they said.

It also includes the withdrawal of over-flight permission, and the use of Dalbadin, Jacobabad and Pasni air force bases to stage search-and-rescue missions in Afghanistan, they said. Pakistan will closely monitor the border behaviour of joint CIA-Special Forces Command (SFC) teams, which were responsible for Fridays unprovoked, sustained attack on Pakistani military posts in Mohmand agency, the experts said.

The CIA-SFC teams also control drone operations over the Fata. However, there is agreement between the government and military to give the Obama administration enough time to find a political solution palatable both to Pakistan and competing power lobbies in Washington.

The White House is, amid the ongoing presidential election campaign, under mounting pressure from the Pentagon, CIA and their allies in Congress to postpone the September 2012 withdrawal of surge combat troops order by Obama, they said. 

So far, only 2,000 of the 32,000 surge troops have left Afghanistan, while the scheduled withdrawal by years end of 10,000 US Marines based in Helmand province is awaited.

The Pentagon and CIA are lobbying for an extended deployment of surge troops to enable the US to make one more effort to break the stalemate with the Taliban, before the scheduled withdrawal of combat units by end-2014.

But Pakistan would be demonstrably impatient and require the US to come clean about its vague insistence that it retains the right to respond to cross-border attacks, the experts said.

Unless this is clearly defined, I think this could completely spiral out of control, Obamas Afghanistan strategy would completely fail, and the planned 2014 withdrawal would be scuttled, said Khan.

Failure to go beyond hollow apologies could prompt an aggressive assertion of Pakistani sovereignty that could, in turn, prompt a US response, leading to a huge flare up on the Durand Line, the experts said.

Pakistan

This will be the biggest blow to USA if Pakistan go for this option in the future.I just hope Pakistan go for this as well.

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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You were calling for ISPR to be more effective were you not?
> 
> In terms of resorting to images of 'babies being kissed and children and widows mourning', Pakistan has a lot of catching up to do with the West, and especially the US, where soldiers and the military are treated like an infallible deity by the media.



More than on images of babies getting kissed and kids and widows mourning... Pakistan has a very long way to go before it can have independent section of media that is utterly critical of the soldiers and the military, and even goes on to lie about the soldiers & military without fearing any prosecution or persecution. 

I have an ex Iraq marine friend, and I have seen how he gets treated around (in his hometown) - not too different from Viet War Ex's that would get spat on their faces by strangers. All that when he is getting treated for PTSD because his friend blew up on his face.

Infallible deity - they are in Pakistan. In the States, well you live there AM, you should know better than that. 

P.S. Thanks for that Telegraph article, I hadn't read that before.

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## Hulk

unicorn said:


> *Pakistan&#8217;s air space may be denied to US*
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has decided, for the time being, not to block US military use of its air space for over-flights into Afghanistan, but this could come within 15 days if bilateral diplomacy fails to relieve tensions over the Mohmand attacks, security experts say.
> 
> The government is currently reviewing the options available to it to demonstrate Pakistan&#8217;s vast leverage over their war in Afghanistan to the US and other members of the International Security Force, the experts said.
> 
> &#8220;If there is another incident, or even a nasty drone attack, the air corridor could also go,&#8221; said Simbal Khan, research director of the Institute of Strategic Studies Islamabad, a Foreign Office-funded think tank.
> 
> Towards the top of the options list is the use of preventive cross-border fire by reinforced border-based army units in Bajaur and Mohmand against future raids by Afghanistan-based militants of the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, they said.
> 
> It also includes the withdrawal of over-flight permission, and the use of Dalbadin, Jacobabad and Pasni air force bases to stage search-and-rescue missions in Afghanistan, they said. Pakistan will closely monitor the border behaviour of joint CIA-Special Forces Command (SFC) teams, which were responsible for Friday&#8217;s unprovoked, sustained attack on Pakistani military posts in Mohmand agency, the experts said.
> 
> The CIA-SFC teams also control drone operations over the Fata. However, there is agreement between the government and military to give the Obama administration enough time to find a political solution palatable both to Pakistan and competing power lobbies in Washington.
> 
> The White House is, amid the ongoing presidential election campaign, under mounting pressure from the Pentagon, CIA and their allies in Congress to postpone the September 2012 withdrawal of &#8220;surge&#8221; combat troops order by Obama, they said.
> 
> So far, only 2,000 of the 32,000 surge troops have left Afghanistan, while the scheduled withdrawal by year&#8217;s end of 10,000 US Marines based in Helmand province is awaited.
> 
> The Pentagon and CIA are lobbying for an extended deployment of surge troops to enable the US to make one more effort to break the stalemate with the Taliban, before the scheduled withdrawal of combat units by end-2014.
> 
> But Pakistan would be demonstrably impatient and require the US to come clean about its vague insistence that it &#8220;retains the right to respond to cross-border attacks&#8221;, the experts said.
> 
> &#8220;Unless this is clearly defined, I think this could completely spiral out of control, Obama&#8217;s Afghanistan strategy would completely fail, and the planned 2014 withdrawal would be scuttled,&#8221; said Khan.
> 
> Failure to go beyond hollow apologies could prompt an aggressive assertion of Pakistani sovereignty that could, in turn, prompt a US response, leading to a huge flare up on the Durand Line, the experts said.
> 
> Pakistan
> 
> This will be the biggest blow to USA if Pakistan go for this option in the future.I just hope Pakistan go for this as well.



Looks like divorce is finally on cards. I hope after separation Pakistan does not think, married life was not that bad at all.

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## iPhone

Mercenary said:


> Well NATO can counter by closing commercial aviation planes from Pakistan.
> 
> .



can they do that? maybe yes, but will they do that, i dont think so. Not in the response of Pakistan's military blockade. Already there is a lot of bad press nato/usa are gettign for this strike. Even major US tv networks, known for bashing Pak, are sypathizing and being senstive to Pakistan. 

An economic chokehold on 180 million ppl only in retaliation of none cooperation is further demonizing one's self. They wont do that.


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## Mercenary

iPhone said:


> can they do that? maybe yes, but will they do that, i dont think so. Not in the response of Pakistan's military blockade. Already there is a lot of bad press nato/usa are gettign for this strike. Even major US tv networks, known for bashing Pak, are sypathizing and being senstive to Pakistan.
> 
> An economic chokehold on 180 million ppl only in retaliation of none cooperation is further demonizing one's self. They wont do that.



Europe banned PIA flights due to safety problems.

If Pakistan blocks NATO flights, that will cause NATO-Pakistan relations to collapse completely.

Pakistan would then be declared a state sponsor of terrorism and sanctioned such as blocking its commercial aviation from landing in Europe and North America.


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## regular

Mercenary said:


> Europe banned PIA flights due to safety problems.
> 
> If Pakistan blocks NATO flights, that will cause NATO-Pakistan relations to collapse completely.
> 
> Pakistan would then be declared a state sponsor of terrorism and sanctioned such as blocking its commercial aviation from landing in Europe and North America.


U know what they can do to us .....Can't cuz they have their own limitations....they can't control everything...With Pakistan the Muslim population gonna standup and we gonna fight Nuclear war...take away all this middle East and the whole Asia by force from these evil Devilz... Stop all the oils from here to them and choked these Goraz/US/NATO to death ..Don't ever undereastimate that we keeping these Nuklear weapons for Showpiece we gonna use them all against these Goraz whereever we gonna see resistance....We gonna make this world literally turned into hell for these devilz.......just wait and see......Insha-Allah.......


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## iPhone

Mercenary said:


> Europe banned PIA flights due to safety problems.
> 
> If Pakistan blocks NATO flights, that will cause NATO-Pakistan relations to collapse completely.
> 
> Pakistan would then be declared a state sponsor of terrorism and sanctioned such as blocking its commercial aviation from landing in Europe and North America.



I'm talking about mlitary supplies that are going by road via Pakistan. their commerical flights can go. The miltary blockade from Pak is very effective and will hurt them dearly and I'm telling you they wont put a econmic squeeze on you for blocking their miltary supplies.


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## blain2

indianrabbit said:


> Looks like divorce is finally on cards. I hope after separation Pakistan does not think, married life was not that bad at all.



We were not the ones who came back into the marriage after 10 years of sanctions during the 90s. The other side came asking for a reconciliation.

We can make do with economic challenges we would face without the American support. So lets not make it sound like Pakistan is unable to survive without American support.

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## pakistanitarzan

Bhairava said:


> Pakistan will never improve.



I hope you're wish never comes true!


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## pakistanitarzan

wilsonnadar said:


> I think Pakistan has some hold, or leverage over Afghanistan, as long as it is part of US team. The day it stops supporting USA, USA will have no consideration for Pakistan. It will have a free run over Pakistan. Room for negotiation will be over. US has plan "B" for transporting its goods already. And before it leaves Afghanistan, it will make sure Afghanistan is NO MORE A LAND LOCKED COUNTRY. Mark my word. I know what kind of response I am going to get for this post. Reality sucks. It wont take much to divide Pakistan, IF USA WANTS. There is a story.One day Cobra was sitting on Shiva's neck, which is his place. Karuda was flying over him. The snake saw the karuda, and asked him, "hey how you doing? Karuda said, As long as everyone stay in their place everything is fine. The day you come down from your place, then I will show you, how am I doing. That was Karudas response. Any way, Hope Pakistan knows its limits, and play its card safely. End of the day ignorance is bliss.



Excellent Post!
However, Allah's plan are different and it's Allah's plan that matter, not USA's plans!


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## Omar1984

You are right. Pakistan should not get into a DIRECT conflict with NATO/U.S.

However, I think its because of Zardari's memo scandal. Look now no one in Pakistan is talking about memo scandal anymore, everyone is talking about NATO attack. Zardari didn't even make a public statement on television against these NATO attacks and he is the President of Pakistan 


Pakistan has just been atatcked and the President is silent


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## iPhone

yes, brother, tell us........in a seperate thread.... why nato attacked us and not in the orginal one.


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## Bhairava

mr42O said:


> lol were did i said raw ????? first of all no indian are welcome here with there stupid comments.
> 
> and about Indian and Isrealies want america attack Pakistan before leaving Afghanistan is reported by ur own newspapir....



RAW denotes Indian Govt and Mossad denotes Israeli govt. 

Was that too hard to understand ?


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## T-Rex

The HBS Guy said:


> If the attack is portrayed as 'not unintentional', it would bring further infamy to the Pakistani Army.
> 
> The sensible thing would be to just call it 'unintentional' and move on.



*Just what kind of 'infamy' are you refering to? Something tells me you're trying to dupe the Pakistanis into saving uncle sam's face.*

---------- Post added at 02:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 AM ----------




idune said:


> Next logical step for China and Russia to do is promptly induct Pakistan as full member of SCO. Which by the way is in card.



*Don't worry, China and Russia have discovered the real intentions of uncle sam.*

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## T-Rex

Bhairava said:


> NATO kills 28 soldiers on Pak-Afghan border and the blame is on RAW-Mossad.
> 
> Well done. Pakistan will never improve.


*
We know how eager you are to see Pakistan's development, so shut the f**k up!*

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## pakistanitarzan

Omar1984 said:


> You are right. Pakistan should not get into a DIRECT conflict with NATO/U.S.
> 
> However, I think its because of Zardari's memo scandal. Look now no one in Pakistan is talking about memo scandal anymore, everyone is talking about NATO attack. Zardari didn't even make a public statement on television against these NATO attacks and he is the President of Pakistan
> 
> 
> Pakistan has just been atatcked and the President is silent



People like Zardari are responsible for thousands of lives of innocent people. I wonder how many years will he burn in hell if he 
dies without doing astaghfar (sincere repentance) to Allah!


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## Bhairava

T-Rex said:


> *
> We know how eager you are to see Pakistan's development, so shut the f**k up!*



Jamati grow up..and stop online stalking me. Jeez.

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## ANG

Hi, one has to look at this from a realistic point of view and not an emotional point of view. The realistic point of view is based on assessing the current administration of Pakistan, and also the financial independence and economic stability of Pakistan.

To be blunt and to the point, the current administration of Pakistan is nothing other than a bunch of sellouts. They have most of their illegal wealth stashed overseas, in mainly NATO/Western countries. Their kids and retirement real estate holdings are probably in these Western countries also. They are most likely looking at immigrating to these foreign nations after having a successful term of looting Pakistan. As such, do you honestly think that they will jeopordize their personal goals? I doubt it, hence they will not take Pakistan's best interests in mind. 

Secondly, unfortunately Pakistan is dependent on foreign loans and aid, and is not in a position be financially independent. Again, this is due to the current corrupt administration.

As such, while most Pakistanis would like a land and air embargo of NATO, I highly doubt this will happen. If the past is a barometer for the future, the current Pakistani administration will not do much. Case in point, they are asking the US to vacate Shamsi, for the third time. Not second, the third time.

It is sad, that a country with all these military assets and nukes, is bullied around so much. Can you imagine if 24 North Korean soldiers had been killed this way, what the NK regime would have done...

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## blain2

> The official, who did not want to be named, added: "The Pakistanis are blowing this thing totally out of proportion by responding the way they have, so severely and strongly. But we hope that they will at least come to Bonn and it will not affect the steps that we have started to take in terms or rebuilding our relationship with Pakistan."



Is this imperial/colonial hubris or what? Essentially translates into "So who cares if some 20 or so darkies are dead. They will get over it." Pretty typical!

One can just imagine if 24 American or British had perished in a similar so called "friendly fire" incident, how the Western governments and media would have reacted and what they would have expected from Pakistan.

It puzzles me that if the West celebrates the deaths of each of their fallen so meticulously, how come this unnamed rascal is missing the point that our 24 were not some unnamed souls. Their deaths have angered Pakistanis immensely and this oversimplification of their deaths won't pacify Pakistanis that easily. The above comments have not a shred of bloody remorse!

KIAs:

Sepoy Tahir Mehmood
Sepoy Najibullah
Sepoy Kiramat Ali
Sepoy Nasir Mehmood
Sepoy Tariq Mehmood
Sepoy Naeem
Sepoy Ibrahim
Sepoy Ahmed Khurshid
Sepoy Asghar Abbas
Sepoy Hafiz Manzoor
Sepoy Abdul Razzaq
Sepoy Ghulam Abbas
Sepoy Rizwan
Sepoy Imran Yusuf
Lance Naik Tariq Mehmood
Lance Naik Raza Mohammad
Havaldar Mushtaq
Havaldar Aslam
Havaldar Mumtaz
Subedar Mannan
Captain Usman
Major Mujahid Ali Mirani

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## T-Rex

Bhairava said:


> Jamati grow up..and stop online stalking me. Jeez.



*RSS terrorists see the ghost of 'Jamati' everywhere, nothing new!*

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## Zarvan

blain2 said:


> We were not the ones who came back into the marriage after 10 years of sanctions during the 90s. The other side came asking for a reconciliation.
> 
> We can make do with economic challenges we would face without the American support. So lets not make it sound like Pakistan is unable to survive without American support.


Sir if some one really analysis the so called American Aid he will find out that it is nothing more than a Joke and if America with draws it it will only effect us 5 % not more than that So what we need to do is shut down the Nato Supply line for 6 Months and if they ever attack again use all your fire power to hit back their will no attack than and also if they try to adopt some other route for their Nato supply its cost will be increase many times

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## acetophenol

Why didn't u guys take the chopper down?


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## fallstuff

Why this base was attacked and not other bases ? Is this base in any way more significant then the other border bases ?


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## Birbal

Omar1984 said:


> *Nato forces repeated attack on Pak army officials: DG MO*
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Director General Military Operations Maj. Gen. Ashfaq Nadeem Tuesday said that Nato forces had once again opened fire on Pak army officers who, fortunately, escaped unhurt, Geo News reported.
> 
> Briefing journalists here at General Headquarters (GHQ) on Nato attack, the DG Military Operations said that Pak army officers came under armed attack by Nato forces while they were inspecting the Pakistani check posts struck earlier in Mohmad Agency.
> 
> He said that investigations conducted into the Nato strike that killed 24 army officials and personnel so far confirmed that the attack was unprovoked and intentional.
> 
> "Nato officials were aware of the fact that Pakistani check posts were present in the area," he added.
> 
> 
> Nato forces repeated attack on Pak army officials: DG MO



Alright now this is just ridiculous. They attacked the same spot again? There has to be some limit to NATO shamelessness.


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## regular

We guyz are busy in stashing money and didn't care about our religion and didn't obey our God Allah SBWT thats why we have to see this time. that we are getting bullied by the devilz of the world every other day ....Now they started killing of the innocent soldiers too....At first they tried to send terrorists but failed cuz we killed them all now they didn't find a way to finish us so they attacking our poor soldiers by hook or by crook.Infact our God/Allah SBWT is mad at us period......


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## Mercenary

fallstuff said:


> Why this base was attacked and not other bases ? Is this base in any way more significant then the other border bases ?



It was an accident.

NATO was conducting operations in this area when they mistook the Pakistani outposts as Taliban bases.

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## Mercenary

iPhone said:


> I'm talking about mlitary supplies that are going by road via Pakistan. their commerical flights can go. The miltary blockade from Pak is very effective and will hurt them dearly and I'm telling you they wont put a econmic squeeze on you for blocking their miltary supplies.


 
All Military supplies are shipped via air transport.

They use Pakistan to transport non-lethal supplies such as Food, Medicine, Clothes, etc.

And they use Pakistan to transport 45% of their supplies. 55% goes through Central Asia and plus they have stockpiled 7 months of surplus supplies so even if all supplies are completely stopped they can go on for 7 months.

And besides, they can call on their aviation assets to rush in more supplies.

Russia tried the same thing in 1948 when they cut off Berlin from supplies, the Allies responded with the Berlin Airlift which kept the city running.

Pakistan thinks it has an Ace up its sleeve. But it doesnt.


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## pmukherjee

What is really important here is 'Can' and not 'Should'. If Pakistan 'Can' then it 'Should'. If it 'can't' then it 'shouldn't' even be thinking about it. It is all about verbs really.


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## regular

Mercenary said:


> All Military supplies are shipped via air transport.
> 
> They use Pakistan to transport non-lethal supplies such as Food, Medicine, Clothes, etc.
> 
> And they use Pakistan to transport 45% of their supplies. 55% goes through Central Asia and plus they have stockpiled 7 months of surplus supplies so even if all supplies are completely stopped they can go on for 7 months.
> 
> And besides, they can call on their aviation assets to rush in more supplies.
> 
> Russia tried the same thing in 1948 when they cut off Berlin from supplies, the Allies responded with the Berlin Airlift which kept the city running.
> 
> Pakistan thinks it has an Ace up its sleeve. But it doesnt.


Hey come on now! some of the containers were stolen and opened by the tribal thugs and sold the military weapons within the tribal areas...so this means the supplies of weapons are going through our land routes. Sometimes the locals attacked the containers and looted them last time they found out the military weapons and even the Cobra helicopters parts within the containers....bro we have all indepth info about everything....we not just sitting ducks here.....we keep a watch on everything that who is lying or telling the truth......Alhamdolillah!.........

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## iPhone

dec. 23rd is the date for nato's final report? it doesn't take and it shouldn't take that long for the report to come out.

I applaud nato's shrewdness for picking such a later date. They know what happend, they've known it for a time now. But they're delying their story as they're hoping and counting on public anger to simmer and calm down. 

So whatever bomb they intend on droping that day there'd be less public and media outcry about it.


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## Mytime

Please dont pull India into this for the sake of it , Its Pakistan vs Uncle Sam n its NATO stooges in all this , 

India wants a stable Pakistan so that India can concentrate on its development rather than get embroiled in useless conflicts !


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## Al Bhatti

Mercenary said:


> If Pakistan closes its airspace to NATO, NATO will close its airspace to Pakistani Airlines, PIA and such.
> 
> Which will be a devastating economic loss to Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan is not Iran.
> 
> Iran has oil revenue to counter such threats and besides Iran doesn't have a major world power as its sworn enemy sitting right across the border like we do with India.
> 
> India is the only country that gains from this riff between Pakistan and NATO.



Well, don't know about the other airlines, but PIA is already a burden on our so called economy. So won't be a big thing if PIA is not allowed in the airspace of NATO member countries.


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## Mercenary

regular said:


> Hey come on now! some of the containers were stolen and opened by the tribal thugs and sold the military weapons within the tribal areas...so this means the supplies of weapons are going through our land routes. Sometimes the locals attacked the containers and looted them last time they found out the military weapons and even the Cobra helicopters parts within the containers....bro we have all indepth info about everything....we not just sitting ducks here.....we keep a watch on everything that who is lying or telling the truth......Alhamdolillah!.........



Although I don't agree with you...I love reading you replies....they sound very gagster


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## Al Bhatti

LeGenD said:


> Regardless of the outcome, I salute the brave Pakistani soldiers. They put up a fight even when they have no chance to succeed. These men and women put the coward politicians to shame.



Do they know what is shame in the first place. Have they ever felt shame?

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## Pakistanisage

fatman17 said:


> the whole thing needs to be viewed without the 'emotional' aspect. personally i am saddened and greived at this loss of life *but in the 'fog of war' such incidents will continue to happen*. having said that, one thing is a given - US/NATO/ISAF forces are 'trigger happy'. this is the 8th incident of so called 'friendly fire' against our troops. in afghanistan hundreds of civilians have been killed by 'friendly fire' incidents. secondly these western forces dont care what happens to the civilians and troops of their 'allies' - now what to do?
> unfortunately we dont have many options. closing all doors to them will only 'isolate' us further. we have only ourselves to blame for this because we have bent over backwards in the past to 'accomodate' them and now they take these things for granted that we will not do anything. we cant start a war with the US/NATO/ISAF with the state of our economy. we just have to 'bite the bullet' and make the best of a very bad situation - 'situation is critical but not hopeless'.




With due respect Mr. Fatman, let us not Besmirch the memory of our martyrs by regurgitating American lies as this being an Accident, Friendly fire and " Fog of War ". This violation of Pakistani Sovereignty took place for a period of over two hours of relentless attacks and despite repeated calls by Pakistani side requesting ceasefire, the shameless and cowardly attack continued unabatedly. After such horrific violation of Pakistan's sovereignty we cannot go back to " Business as Usual " and there would have to be serious consequences for this cowardly attack. The thing about yielding sovereignty is that it is a slippery, sliding slope and once you start this process of yielding then there is no going back and you keep going down.

I agree with you that we have to take deliberate and measured response and not get carried away but we must not yield on the issue of supplies transit / Shamsi Air Base. We should stop all cooperation with the US and reduce their staff to only dipolmats. All CIA/Military trainers should be given 48 hours to clear out. 

Enough is Enough.


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## Mav3rick

Mercenary said:


> It was an accident.
> 
> NATO was conducting operations in this area when they mistook the Pakistani outposts as Taliban bases.


 
It was an accident when they attacked Pakistani Soldiers in uniforms sitting in marked and informed posts? Dude, how I would love to see a Pakistani accident that murders 48 of your soldiers anywhere in the world......and we would even apologise for our 'mistake'!

By the way, the attack continued for another 90 minutes after the US was informed that it was attacking a Pakistani Army post. Perhaps that, too, was an accident.

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## chava

Don't get upset but i think it's because of marine deaths in helicopter.
Us is capable of doing things and saying by mistake . Remember Iran passenger jet bombing in 80s? Also Chinese embassy in Kosovo and this.
So best That pak can do is to take blood money and let it go.

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## I M Sikander

Mercenary said:


> Please write coherent statements. I don't respond to such poorly worded responses.


 
Sorry dude, but i didin't use this terminology for PAk-US relations. Famous urdu columnist Late Irshad Ahmed Haqani used this terminology of *Mutta Marriage* for PAk-US relations.

Pak and US are neither friends, nor foe, neither strategic partners not even well wisher for each other we are just paper marriage partners in hours of need and necessity.


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## I M Sikander

regular said:


> U know what they can do to us .....Can't cuz they have their own limitations....they can't control everything...With Pakistan the Muslim population gonna standup and we gonna fight Nuclear war...take away all this middle East and the whole Asia by force from these evil Devilz... Stop all the oils from here to them and choked these Goraz/US/NATO to death ..Don't ever undereastimate that we keeping these Nuklear weapons for Showpiece we gonna use them all against these Goraz whereever we gonna see resistance....We gonna make this world literally turned into hell for these devilz.......just wait and see......Insha-Allah.......



Oh my God
*Chill dude chill, have some thanda thanda water. *

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## Fracker

Cold war begins ?

But this time Pakistan has their own side?


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## karan.1970

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> like they didnt ''allow'' Klimov RD-93s for the JF Thunders, right?



And isnt that needing replacement in Mk II ???


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## blain2

Good opportunity for the Russians to milk the deal to their advantage. Pakistan should try to use the Russian concerns as levers in its own negotiations with the ISAF.

Aside from that, I do not see the two sides working together to squeeze ISAF. Its up to both sides to take advantage individually of the situation created by ISAF.

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## Areesh

KarachiPunk said:


> too much fodder here for Vcheng to troll at will, you are lucky the way you are sitting as some bharati in america and operating under pakistani flag



After reading Vcheng it always looks like Nadeem F Paracha has made an account of defence.pk

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## Black Widow

chava said:


> Don't get upset but i think it's because of marine deaths in helicopter.
> Us is capable of doing things and saying by mistake . Remember Iran passenger jet bombing in 80s? Also Chinese embassy in Kosovo and this.
> So best That pak can do is to take blood money and let it go.



I agree with you, Americans don't apologize. Iran passenger get bombing was shameful act. whereas Kososvo JDAM was a purposeful act. 

USA will not say sorry, Pakistan will forget this incident in few months and the marriage will continue as it is....


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## iPhone

Mercenary said:


> It was an accident.
> 
> NATO was conducting operations in this area when they mistook the Pakistani outposts as Taliban bases.



I think you just woke up and learned of the attack. There's a lot of detail that have come out and available in the thread. It's not as black and white as you just made it that hey, NATO made a mistake while conducting an opp.

The attack continued for more than two hours. On a marked and highly visible post high on top of a hill. Pak soldiers identified themselves during the course of the attack.

I suggest you go through the thread a little, and read at least few posts by professional members before coming to such a simplistic conclusion.


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## VCheng

Areesh said:


> After reading Vcheng it always looks like Nadeem F Paracha has made an account of defence.pk



Who is Nadeem Paracha?


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## Fracker

pakistanitarzan said:


> Excellent Post!
> However, *Allah's plan are different* and it's Allah's plan that matter, not USA's plans!



How do you know? Well, i think same, and it's because of yesterday KSA told their citizen to move out of Syria.

@Topic

I think pakistan done this too early, they should have go to bone and then record their protest while taking Russia and China with them out of the bone conference, then that could make better impact. Any ways, still good to see Pakistani Government are showing some guts (which i wasn't expecting from this government atleast)


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## bdslph

PAkistan is to China
India is to Russia

Pakistan is never to USA 
All Pakistan wanted to help

Pakistan dont need USA
USA need Pakistan


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## Sher Malang

pakistanitarzan said:


> Excellent Post!
> However, Allah's plan are different and it's Allah's plan that matter, not USA's plans!



Allah has no plan in destruction of Afghanistan, plus if Pakistan is not coming to this conference it's fine; it's about PAK-US tensions nothing more.


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## Imran Khan

haliry told to pakistan you wanna come or i call your african uncle for sms? 

---------- Post added at 08:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 AM ----------




Sher Malang said:


> Allah has no plan in destruction of Afghanistan, plus if Pakistan is not coming to this conference it's fine; it's about PAK-US tensions nothing more.



we should stay away from afghanistan .china iran also have border with afg but they are not damn involve in this mess. we should fence the border plant millions of mines close all doors and don't send a single bottle of water or 1kg wheat .send back millions afghanis which **** our economy stop bloody afghan transit .and forget afghanistan once forever .


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## blain2

wilsonnadar said:


> I think Pakistan has some hold, or leverage over Afghanistan, as long as it is part of US team. The day it stops supporting USA, USA will have no consideration for Pakistan. It will have a free run over Pakistan. Room for negotiation will be over. US has plan "B" for transporting its goods already. And before it leaves Afghanistan, it will make sure Afghanistan is NO MORE A LAND LOCKED COUNTRY. Mark my word. I know what kind of response I am going to get for this post. Reality sucks. It wont take much to divide Pakistan, IF USA WANTS. There is a story.One day Cobra was sitting on Shiva's neck, which is his place. Karuda was flying over him. The snake saw the karuda, and asked him, "hey how you doing? Karuda said, As long as everyone stay in their place everything is fine. The day you come down from your place, then I will show you, how am I doing. That was Karudas response. Any way, Hope Pakistan knows its limits, and play its card safely. End of the day ignorance is bliss.



Afghanistan wont be a land-locked country? That would be news to me.

America will do what it must, Pakistan and others who live in that region will do what they must. Isn't that the reality of the situation? So why are we trying to use these posts as if to wage some sort of psychological warfare here? Lets roll the dice! Lets see where things settle.

Divide Pakistan and gain what? After all aren't you trying to keep the same from happening in Afghanistan?

Do you think that just by suggesting that US can divide Pakistan, the Pakistanis will suddenly get scared and fall in line with the diktats of the United States?

You should leave Pakistanis to play their cards. The limit on Pakistan is certainly not the one that the US imposes on the country. If Pakistan is impacted, do you think the ones neighbouring Pakistan would remain unharmed?

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## Al Bhatti

Fieldmarshal said:


> *Another pack of lies by Nato*
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-n...f-lies-by-Nato
> 
> Today&#8217;s papers carry the news that the Nato Chief has said that the attack on Pakistani soldiers was un-intentional. Very generous of him! Yesterday, I talked to Lt Col Shahid Jan from Peshawar. He had just visited CMH Peshawar to meet the wounded in Salah Post by the US/Nato raid on night of 26 November. This is what he told me.
> There were 14 wounded lying in the surgical ward suffering a variety of wounds. He talked to everyone of them and asked them what had happened. The crux of the account of the soldiers and officers was that *at about 11pm on 26th Nov a light aircraft came from across the border, flew over the post and fired flares and returned. About half an hour later armed helicopters and light aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men. They remained in the area for about 5 to 6 hours. During this time, the helicopter kept firing at individual personnel at will. The post had only one 12.7 anti-aircraft gun which opened fire. The gunner was shot. The major on the post took up the gun and began firing at the helicopters. He was fired at again. While changing position he was hit by a rocket or missile. His body was blasted to pieces. Only his name-plate was found. Every one of the men on the post was killed or wounded. They seemed to be in no hurry and going after each individual separately. Having finished the entire post, they went back without any casualty on their part. *
> And the Nato Chief has the effrontery to say that it was un-intentional.
> Now my question is, *if for 5 to 6 hours this enemy action was taking place and our ground troops were under such deliberate enemy fire, where was the Army&#8217;s reaction and where was the PAF during all this time? I cannot believe that the Corps HQ or the PAF Northern Command in Peshawar did not know what was going on, on the front. If so, both should be disbanded for deliberate incompetence. *
> 
> AYAZ AHMAD,
> Rawalpindi, November 28.


 
So if take into consideration the above info, the around 2 hours time frame has become 5-6 hours, Well again the question as i asked earlier (at that time the time frame was around 2 hours), even though the chain of command is long for getting any timely orders, wasn't it possible to force those attacking helis to land inside Pakistan (few weeks earlier we did the same with the heli from the eastern side) and the pilot+crew taken into custody and put on trial.


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## Sher Malang

Imran Khan said:


> we should stay away from afghanistan .*china iran also have border with afg but they are not damn involve in this mess*. we should fence the border plant millions of mines close all doors and don't send a single bottle of water or 1kg wheat .send back millions afghanis which **** our economy stop bloody afghan transit .and forget afghanistan once forever .



Perhaps they were not told 'stay with us or you will be bombed along Taliban'.

It's impossible for both Afghanistan and Pakistan to stay away from each other but rather to keep mistrust away from themselves.

Planting mines and fence the border is a flop idea, you can ask the people living on the border.


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## blain2

Sher Malang said:


> Allah has no plan in destruction of Afghanistan, plus if Pakistan is not coming to this conference it's fine; it's about PAK-US tensions nothing more.



And why is the assumption that Pakistan has a plan for the destruction of Afghanistan? Why would Pakistan want the baggage of millions of refugees at our doors? 

Why can't Pakistan's issues be considered in this "Afghan Settlement"? 

The conference at Bonn should go on with or without Pakistan. This is what the GoP has communicated but this issue is not just about Pak-US tensions. It has to do with the way the ANA is playing the ISAF against Pakistan and it has a lot to do with Pakistan not wanting to buckle under a very real threat of encirclement on our Western borders. This latter part has a lot to do with Afghan-Pak tensions.


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## Mytime

This decision to boycott the Bonn meeting was a straightforward call , since the public opinion in Pakistan is highly anti US and Anti NATO currently ....Had Pakistan gone to the meeting , the leaders would have faced dire consequences back home , so no surprise....


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## blain2

Democracy in action..

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## Areesh

waz said:


> Yes the country that shares a major geographical boundary with Afghanistan, has millions of its citizens retain close blood and cultural ties with Afghanistan, is host to the second largest population of Afghans on the planet, has influence over the most powerful rebel factions operating in Afghanistan, is central for the transport of trade and other essential items to Afghanistan, it's role is overplayed?
> 
> Unbelievable......Well the Afghans don't share any of your sentient,their leader Karzai is anxious about the whole thing.


 
What a post buddy. Owned the poor guy.

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## Al Bhatti

aliabid said:


> Pakistan
> 
> 
> *Pakistan&#8217;s decision on Shamsi airbase should be honoured: ISAF*
> 
> 
> KABUL: Pakistan&#8217;s decision of asking the US to vacate Shamshi airbase within 15 days should be honoured, said the spokesman for ISAF on Tuesday.
> 
> The spokesman added that the decision was a matter of Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty
> 
> During a press briefing the spokesman expressed his hope that the government of Pakistani would join the Nato attack investigation and both parties would be united in their quest to build regional security.


 


La ResistanceZ said:


> It looks like Pakistan gave 2 bases to USA.



So one more base coming to the surface which they have, proving what i said earlier. This may be just the tip of the iceberg.

The Shamsi base is ir-relevant to USA (unlike other base/s in Pakistan which USA may have or most probably they have) and the GOP and army knows that it will be easy for them (the US) to leave the base. After "OBL raid" it was asked to be vacated but not vacated, and after the latest attack they (USA) very much knew that this base will again come to the surface for sure.


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## fatman17

there are pros and cons of this decision by the govt in power, hopefully we are not 'isolating' ourselves

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## Sher Malang

blain2 said:


> And why is the assumption that Pakistan has a plan for the destruction of Afghanistan? Why would Pakistan want the baggage of millions of refugees at our doors?
> 
> *Why can't Pakistan's issues be considered in this "Afghan Settlement"?*
> 
> The conference at Bonn should go on with or without Pakistan. This is what the GoP has communicated but this issue is not just about Pak-US tensions. It has to do with the way the ANA is playing the ISAF against Pakistan and it has a lot to do with Pakistan not wanting to buckle under a very real threat of encirclement on our Western borders. This latter part has a lot to do with Afghan-Pak tensions.



Pakistan can accept a baggage of millions of refugees but not an Afghanistan anti-Pakistan (which Pakistan thinks). Don't you accept that Pakistan is playing for it's own interests in Afghanistan? Don't these interests hurt Afghans and the system? 

I am completely agree with you with the bold part, US and Afghanistan should consider Pakistan's sensitivities.

ANA is not playing the ISAF games against Pakistan, and why should they? at least they know ISAF is not gonna be with them forever but Pakistan will be. And how could you trust an anonymous person talking on behalf of ANA?


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## bdslph

Pakistan is the one of the country who disobey USA

Too Bad USA is mad at Pakistan as they are not LAP DOG unlike some Middle East Countries

What i love about Pakistan is that they have GUTS to say things against USA

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## Al Bhatti

LeGenD said:


> To some extent in current times.
> 
> 
> Here is the economics:
> 
> 
> 180 million people and numbers increasing.
> Shortage of jobs.
> Double-Digit inflation.
> Cost of Living increasing rapidly.
> Gap between rich and poor increasing.
> Industry not working properly.
> Impact of War on Terror.
> [*]Corruption.
> 
> Now imagine if US imposes heavy sanctions, enforces blockade in Arabian Sea, and ends all trade with Pakistan (its allies will do the same too), what will be the consequences of all this?
> 
> Pakistan will sink very fast and become another Afghanistan.
> 
> Do we want this?
> 
> There is a limit of everything. Currently we are not in the position to stand up to this new threat. Look around you - the covert war of US inside Pakistan has been going on for several years now. Thousands are dead because of it.
> 
> What can our military do at maximum in current circumstances? Fight for some days and when the reserves run out, then what?
> 
> We need to stand on our feet first if we want our nation to not be treated like a banana republic. Better to be prepared then sorry.


 
If Pakistan succeeds to eliminate only the last point in your list, all the point you mentioned above that will be solved automatically.


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## bdslph

Al Bhatti said:


> So if take into consideration the above info, the around 2 hours time frame has become 5-6 hours, Well again the question as i asked earlier (at that time the time frame was around 2 hours), even though the chain of command is long for getting any timely orders, wasn't it possible to force those attacking helis to land inside Pakistan (few weeks earlier we did the same with the heli from the eastern side) and the pilot+crew taken into custody and put on trial.



so NATO will come up with well cooked news stories every day,,,,, 5 to 6 hours waiting come on ,,, and there is no back up and air force Pakistan air force is not crappy one it is a airforce which also enemy of Pakistan respect with 
what ever happened it finished in minutes


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## AstanoshKhan

Jon Snow said:


> If you act without thinking about repercussions you are being stupid. simple as that. Its a bad situation for you guys - you dont have any good options available - dont make it worse for you.
> 
> As to why you have a military - a military is supposed to be first and foremost a deterrent - if a major war breaks out then the military has already failed.



I/we and many Jawans and officers of the force would rather die a dignified death. Who cares about the repercussions and it's effects, a man has to die one day, why not die saving your homeland - the world would know, we gave them a hell of a tough fight.

Kafir hai tu shamshir pay karta hai bharosa, 
Momin hai tu bai- taigh bhi larta hai seepahi... Allam Iqbal

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## Rig Vedic

Does anybody know, has the list of the 24 casualties in this unfortunate incident been published by the ISPR, with names, ranks etc?


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## mjnaushad

Rig Vedic said:


> Does anybody know, has the list of the 24 casualties in this unfortunate incident been published by the ISPR, with names, ranks etc?



1 Maj.

1 Capt.

6 FC jawans

rest Azad Kashmir regiment Jawans.

List on the internet is as follows but not complete

1. Major Mujahid
2. Capt Usman
3. Havaldar Mushtaq
4. Havaldar Aslam
5. Sipahi Imran
6. Sipahi Abdul Razzaq
7. Sipahi Mazhar
8. Sipahi Tarip
9. Sipahi Nasir Mehmod
10. Sipahi Mujibullah
11. Sipahi Tahir
12. Sipahi Muheem

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## indushek

blain2 said:


> Is this imperial/colonial hubris or what? Essentially translates into "So who cares if some 20 or so darkies are dead. They will get over it." Pretty typical!
> 
> One can just imagine if 24 American or British had perished in a similar so called "friendly fire" incident, how the Western governments and media would have reacted and what they would have expected from Pakistan.
> 
> It puzzles me that if the West celebrates the deaths of each of their fallen so meticulously, how come this unnamed rascal is missing the point that our 24 were not some unnamed souls. Their deaths have angered Pakistanis immensely and this oversimplification of their deaths won't pacify Pakistanis that easily. The above comments have not a shred of bloody remorse!
> 
> KIAs:
> 
> Sepoy Tahir Mehmood
> Sepoy Najibullah
> Sepoy Kiramat Ali
> Sepoy Nasir Mehmood
> Sepoy Tariq Mehmood
> Sepoy Naeem
> Sepoy Ibrahim
> Sepoy Ahmed Khurshid
> Sepoy Asghar Abbas
> Sepoy Hafiz Manzoor
> Sepoy Abdul Razzaq
> Sepoy Ghulam Abbas
> Sepoy Rizwan
> Sepoy Imran Yusuf
> Lance Naik Tariq Mehmood
> Lance Naik Raza Mohammad
> Havaldar Mushtaq
> Havaldar Aslam
> Havaldar Mumtaz
> Subedar Mannan
> Captain Usman
> Major Mujahid Ali Mirani



True these kind of statements are irresponsible and show that, humanity shouldn't be associated with a person uttering such words.

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## Mujahid




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## Al Bhatti

Something evil came to my mind last night. Is there "memogate 2" currently running behind the scenes? 


It might be very much possible. Who knows probably this time it will be army vs civilian govt. unlike "memogate 1" or maybe the same civilian govt. vs. army or maybe ................... (other options are also available)


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## Rig Vedic

Mercenary said:


> Pakistan should this incident as an opportunity.
> 
> 1 - Force the USA to lifting tariffs on Pakistani goods being imported to USA. This will cause Pakistan's economy to improve by opening up the huge US market to Pakistani goods.
> 2 - Give us better communication systems and establish a joint communication on the border areas.
> 3 - More Advanced Weaponry such as Cobra Gunships, F-16 fighters, etc.
> 4 - More aid in developing Pakistan's crumbling Electrical Grid.
> 5 - And most important of all, compensation to the victim's families.




All these things will not solve the fundamental question. Pakistan should first make a strategic decision that it wants an independent, democratic, sovereign Afghanistan, with the freedom to choose which countries it wants to be on good terms with.


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## F.O.X

Mercenary said:


> It was an accident.
> 
> NATO was conducting operations in this area when they mistook the Pakistani outposts as Taliban bases.



Yes Accident Happen , if it happens once it is an Accident , if it happens twice it is coincidence but if it continues to happen then it is anything but accident .

do you think NATO/US force are this unprofessional that they would mistake a Pakistani Check post with Pakistani Flag where they have conducted various flag meeting as a Taliban hideout ? please Come with a batter excuse saying that it was an accident is just pathetic & shows the american mentality . 

They have sunk so much deep in power that if they kill someone innocent it is an Accident , but if their own people get killed Then its an act of War . You lost 3000 people in Twin tower *ACCIDENT* & in return you killed more then a million who did not even had to do anything with that *ACCIDENT* .

Ignorance is a Bliss & America is right at the bottom of it.

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## Raja.Pakistani

Its nice to know that some western have balls to admit mistakes of their own government and have ability to criticise their own peoples just like this guy john.


i know their is something wrong with the world when people overlook the deaths of 24 innocent, allied soldiers - who didn't had anything to do in the one side attack/accident that took place. That's 24 families, mothers, daughters and kids now mourning their beloved ones. Still you are trumping USA's drum unnecessarily.
The issue is not if pakistan is 'pushing the envelope' the issue is to find out why did the incident took place when the US and NATO had clear coordinates of all Pakistani checkpoints like this one.

It's been 10 years since 9/11 and compared to the ~3000 people who last their lives in 9/11, Pakistan alone has had 40,000 casualties (defence forces fighting the allied US war against taliban + civilians dead in casualties like bomb blasts [taliban outrage at pakistan army for helping US] and casualties from drone atacks).

You dn't have to be a genius to know andcompare 3000 vs 40,000 deaths. All human lives are equal. It's about time the US stops it's bullying across the globe and retreat back to its homeland. With all the US debt that it owns to chinese, there'd be no better time to worry about their own economy than Pakistan and the taliban.
What would have happened if it was USA? We must respect that Pakistan's Sovereignty.
To me if they are able to outset US and its allies it will be a great victory for Pakistan.
Its time for new relationships. 

The West has been in here for a long time. Its time for them to go.
After all the conspiracies they have made. Its the west that have made Pakistan a Hell. When ever they stepped foot on another soil it is be made into a hell.


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## Pak123

*Clinton regrets Pak boycott of Bonn Conference*

*BUSAN: US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Wednesday voiced regret that Pakistan had announced a boycott of a meeting on Afghanistan in Germany and urged it to consider.

Speaking at an aid conference in South Korea, Clinton reiterated the US stance that the border killing of Pakistani soldiers was a "tragic incident" and pledged an investigation "as swiftly and thoroughly as possible."

"Frankly this is regrettable that Pakistan has decided not to attend the conference in Bonn because this conference has been long in the planning," Clinton told reporters.

"Pakistan like the United States has a profound interest in a secure, stable and increasingly democratic Afghanistan," Clinton said.

Clinton voiced hope that Pakistan would find a "follow-up way" to take part in talks on Afghanistan's future.

Nato air strikes killed 24 Pakistani troops on the Afghan border in disputed circumstances, inflaming new tensions between Islamabad and the West. *

Clinton regrets Pak boycott of Bonn Conference

---------- Post added at 12:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------

*US prepares to vacate Shamsi Air Base*

*ISLAMABAD: The United States is preparing to accede to Pakistani demands that it vacate a remote air base in Pakistan used for drone flights, but the move is not expected to have a significant impact on operations against militants, U.S. government sources say.

Washington is treading lightly not to aggravate an already fragile relationship that was bruised further by a NATO attack on a Pakistani military outpost last weekend that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers near the Afghanistan border.

Pakistan demanded that the United States leave the Shamsi Air Base within 15 days and blocked ground supply routes through Pakistan to U.S. forces in Afghanistan.

Three sources, who declined to be identified because of the issue's sensitivity, said U.S. planning is under way to leave the base, a remote facility in Baluchistan that has been a point of contention.

The cross-border incident escalated tensions between the two countries and the U.S. military is conducting an investigation to find out exactly what happened on the ground.

The moves by the Pakistanis to block ground supply routes and the air base were not expected to significantly hinder U.S. operations.

One U.S. government source said the United States has spent months preparing for a possible eviction from the Pakistan base by building up other drone launching and staging capability.

Earlier this year, after the U.S. raid that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, some Pakistani officials demanded that Washington vacate the Shamsi facility.

At the time, however, U.S. officials said that American personnel would remain at the base and would continue to conduct drone flights in pursuit of militants.

But in one concession, the United States stopped conducting lethal drone operations from that base and limited operations to surveillance flights.

U.S. officials believe that this time Pakistan appears much more resolute about carrying out the eviction threat. Vacating the air base was seen more as an inconvenience rather than a critical blow to drone operations which the United States also conducts from Afghanistan and possibly elsewhere.

The unmanned aerial vehicles may have a longer flight from Afghanistan but they are capable of hovering overhead for hours as they seek to spot suspicious activity and follow militants.

U.S. officials are reluctant to openly talk about drone operations because they are considered a covert CIA activity.

General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the U.S. military's Joint Chiefs of Staff, in London this week addressed the Shamsi issue without acknowledging the use of drones at the base.

"There are other options for stationing aircraft and other resources around the region," Dempsey told Britain's ITV News.

"It's a serious blow in the sense that the Pakistani government felt that they needed to deny us the use of a base that we've been using for many years," he said. "And so it's serious in that regard. It's not debilitating militarily."

BLOCKED SUPPLY ROUTE

The United States also has to deal with the blocking of the ground supply route through Pakistan to Afghanistan.

Congressman C.A. "Dutch" Ruppersberger, the senior Democrat on the House of Representatives intelligence committee, said that route accounts for less than half the supplies for international forces in Afghanistan and the military has contingency plans.

"We have a large distribution network to make sure that coalition forces are well-stocked," he told Reuters. "It's not going to affect our ability to follow through and execute our mission."

Yet alternate supply routes such as the northern distribution network are not a perfect substitute and there are concerns that the cost of keeping soldiers fed, armed and fueled without use of Pakistani roads would be excessive.

Ruppersberger, who visited Pakistan to meet with officials after U.S. forces killed bin Laden, said the relationship was poor at that point.

"We were starting to improve in the last month or so and then all of a sudden this unfortunate incident occurred, and now we're right back to where we were again," he said.

"It is to the advantage of both countries to work together," Ruppersberger said. "In the end that will come. It's about relationships, it's about trust, and unfortunately that hasn't been there for a while."

Ruppersberger would not comment on the Shamsi departure.

STILL INVESTIGATING

U.S. officials said there is still considerable confusion about details of the latest border incident.

Wary of further damaging an already delicate situation, U.S. officials were reluctant to speculate about what happened before getting the results of military investigations.

"The focus of the administration at this point is on trying to find ways to show Pakistan that we're serious about investigating the incident and forging a cooperative relationship in the future," a U.S. official said on condition of anonymity.

"No one at this point has the complete narrative on what happened," Pentagon spokesman George Little said. "I think it's premature to articulate the facts of this incident."

A U.S. government source familiar with counter-terrorism operations along the Afghan-Pakistan border said the latest incident apparently grew out of an Afghan-U.S. special forces commando patrol operation.

Some early information from the region suggests that at some point the Afghan-U.S. patrol team came under fire from what they believed were militants. They then called in an airstrike, which hit a Pakistani military outpost.

Investigations into the incident now are trying to determine if the militants deliberately took up positions near the Pakistani outpost to confuse American and Afghan forces or whether Pakistani forces at the border outpost were somehow complicit in initially firing on the Afghan-U.S. patrol.

A U.S. military official, without commenting on details of the current incident, said the Taliban had previously tried to provoke cross-border fighting between Pakistani soldiers and NATO forces but problems were headed off by cross-border communication.

"It is something we've seen previously, yes. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened," the official said, without confirming anything about the recent incident.

Another key question is what happened to cross-border communication systems set up to avoid this kind of confusion.

The border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is badly marked, and disputed in many stretches. The terrain of steep mountains, dense forest and sparse population provides hideouts for militants who can move freely along the frontier.

The Pakistani and Afghan militaries and NATO-led alliance have tried to limit deadly mistakes by establishing communication links including a hotline to check on potential targets or warn of possible friendly fire.

The Pakistani military says it has given maps with permanent outposts clearly marked to NATO and the Afghan army. It also said there is a hotline between the two sides, but declined to say if it was used the evening of the attack.

A spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force said he was not aware of a hotline. (Reuters) *

US prepares to vacate Shamsi Air Base

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## Omar1984




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## Mav3rick

Mercenary said:


> US gains absolutely nothing by bombing Pakistani Soldiers.
> 
> Such things happen during the Fog of War, when borders are not properly marked.
> 
> During World War II, US Navy shot down its own planes in Italy in 1943 killing 700 Soldiers.
> 
> So get a grip.
> 
> *Why don't you guys use the same condemnation when the Taliban Terrorists kill our soldiers instead of using selective outrage when America accidentally killed ours?*


 
Honestly? it saddens us, like all human beings, when blood is spilt by either side. Having said that, is it not a fact that you are the aggressors in Afghanistan? Isn't is a fact that you have brutally murdered innocent men, women and children? You have executed, that's right the word is executed, thousands of innocent civilians for each of your soldier so mate the condemnation is a lot stronger on your side. On the other hand, had the Afghans invaded the US and carried out similar acts we would have condemned Afghans in the exact same way as we condemn you.

P.S. The people that fight against your illegal occupation of Afghanistan are considered freedom fighters here, people who are fighting to free their country from terrorists....from you!

---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------




unicorn said:


> *Australia Foreign Minister Anti Pakistani Comments about this incident*
> 
> _*Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd was unusually explicit on Pakistans dangerous doublegame over the weekend.
> 
> The view that I have is that it's quite clear that there is a line of supply of improvised explosive devices going into Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan from Taliban-controlled parts of western Pakistan, said Mr Rudd. That is my belief.
> 
> He added: If Pakistan is assisting this indirectly, or by whatever means  we have a real problem on our hands. *_
> 
> Pakistan rage over deadly ISAF airstrike | News.com.au


 
Mr. Rudd must be confusing his terrorist ancestors, who were punished and sent to Australia to live in exile, with our soldiers.

---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 PM ----------




Mercenary said:


> Not really. Nato forces have enough material stockpiled to keep functioning for 7 months even if all supply routes are closed.
> 
> Furthermore, they can airlift supplies into Afghanistan similar to the Berlin airlift and they are also using Central Asia to move 51% of their supplies into Afghanistan.


 
Yeah well then quit crying about the closed routes and enjoy alternate routes in peace!

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## Omar1984




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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> NATO is quoting an Afghan border policeman who saw that the fire was coming from the Pakistani posts.
> Hence air support was called in
> 
> 
> *Question*: where was this border policeman standing? On the order or was part of the team that was inside Pakistan?
> 
> *Question*: did he see fire coming from both posts? If yes then I say he got some super vision that is able to see 2 different check posts miles apart and from few kilometres away from his position.
> 
> *Question*: if the fire was only coming from one psot then why the other post was attacked too? Its on the premise if the NATO excuse is bought.
> 
> The other NATO statement is that the border is poorly marked.
> 
> *Question*: is their equipment and training also poor that they were unable to realise that they were deep inside Pakistan?
> 
> *Question*: did the pilots know what they were attacking? Did the mission HQ actually sent them on purpose to destroy the posts as suggested by the DGMO of Pakistan army?
> 
> *Question*: if the attack was unintentional as the NATO claims and they were loured into Pakistani posts by Taliban then did they forget the gradients of the Pakistani check posts in the heat of the moment?
> 
> *Question*: does NATO acknowledge the communications by Pakistanis to call off the attacks since they were attacking Pakistanis? If they do, does that not negate their claim that the attack was unintentional?
> 
> 
> *Question*: why did the NATO decide that attacking both posts was necessary if their intention was not to destroy Pakistani posts and their story of chasing Taliban is to be bought? isnt it odd and a consciences that they decided to attack the places where there were Pakistani designated check posts?
> 
> 
> *My guess is by 23rd of December this will be NATOs finding.*
> 
> The ISAF/ ANA were chasing Taliban and there was fire coming from where Pakistani positions were. Since the border is poorly marked so the perusing forces didnt know a@ss from the elbow and relied on an Afghan border policeman who (location classified and adjusted to suit the story) decided that the fire was coming from 1 or 2 posts that were 2.5 KM inside Pakistan. From his genius a tactical situation arose and on that bases the air strikes were called in and they engaged one of the check post. And then they continued with the other post too where they received some retaliatory fire but destroyed that too.
> 
> 
> So NATO is not at fault and neither the NATO commanders not the pilots can be blamed because.
> 
> 1. An Afghan border policeman said that the fire was coming from Pakistan
> 2. The border is poorly marked .
> 3. Taliban could have led the helicopters / ISAF troops to Pakistani posts.
> 4. When the Pakistani posts came under attack they fired back so they had to be stopped.
> 
> I think, Pakistan army should have joined the investigation so that there is less chance of a cover up, unless if Pakistan army has evidence beyond doubt that the attack was premeditated and the posts were remarked for destruction in full knowledge that they were of Pakistan army and thats why all radio communication was ignored and the attack continued on not one but both posts.
> 
> if that is true then expose NATO to the rest of the world and prepare for any similar future attacks like this.
> reduce the diplomatic ties, break-up military cooperation and officer exchange/ training program (like command & staff, Gunnies staff etc).
> 
> order the closure of all CIA offices and seek the agents and deport them. Permanently stop the NATO supplies.
> reduce the cooperation to the level of Turkey or even less and become a passive supporter of Afghan peaceful settlement.
> This is the best Pakistan can do. If NATO doesnt repeat that but if it repeats the attack then it should defend itself with all its force.


 And the best part is, the Afghan policeman is a figment of imagination!!!

The DGMO , in the presence of CJS has said that first, the post Volcano was attacked, and was quickly terminated, and in response, post Boulder retaliated with small arms fire, and they were terminated as well.

The Tribal leaders called in a jirga and the tribals are ready to infiltrate into Afghanistan and fight if the GoP orders them!

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## Jango

Mercenary said:


> If these laser guided missiles hit with pinpoint accruacy then you must support the Drone attacks which are taking out those terroists in FATA?
> 
> Pakistani terrority is used by these terrorists to launch attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
> 
> As for those posts. They were recently established after Pakistan conducted a military operation in the region and took the region back from Taliban terrorists.
> 
> USA didn't use drones in this operation. Afghan commandos called in air strikes saying they were being bombed from locations within Pakistan. US send in Apache Gunships which fired missiles which killed our soldiers.
> 
> So all of this needs to be determined in a through, joint and impartial investigation.



How can you that the Afghans were bombed?


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## Omar1984



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## Jango

blain2 said:


> Is this imperial/colonial hubris or what? Essentially translates into "So who cares if some 20 or so darkies are dead. They will get over it." Pretty typical!
> 
> One can just imagine if 24 American or British had perished in a similar so called "friendly fire" incident, how the Western governments and media would have reacted and what they would have expected from Pakistan.
> 
> It puzzles me that if the West celebrates the deaths of each of their fallen so meticulously, how come this unnamed rascal is missing the point that our 24 were not some unnamed souls. Their deaths have angered Pakistanis immensely and this oversimplification of their deaths won't pacify Pakistanis that easily. The above comments have not a shred of bloody remorse!
> 
> KIAs:
> 
> Sepoy Tahir Mehmood
> Sepoy Najibullah
> Sepoy Kiramat Ali
> Sepoy Nasir Mehmood
> Sepoy Tariq Mehmood
> Sepoy Naeem
> Sepoy Ibrahim
> Sepoy Ahmed Khurshid
> Sepoy Asghar Abbas
> Sepoy Hafiz Manzoor
> Sepoy Abdul Razzaq
> Sepoy Ghulam Abbas
> Sepoy Rizwan
> Sepoy Imran Yusuf
> Lance Naik Tariq Mehmood
> Lance Naik Raza Mohammad
> Havaldar Mushtaq
> Havaldar Aslam
> Havaldar Mumtaz
> Subedar Mannan
> Captain Usman
> Major Mujahid Ali Mirani



Had pakistan done it, there would have been news that the PA is nothing in reality, and poor standards and all that BS.


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## Omar1984

*Offended Pakistan skips Afghan peace talks*

Pakistan plans to boycott a key international meeting in Germany to discuss Afghanistan&#8217;s future. The measure follows in response to a recent NATO air strike which killed more than 20 Pakistani soldiers near the Afghan border.

*The decision to skip the Bonn international security conference on Afghanistan's future on December 5 was agreed at a meeting of the federal cabinet at the governor&#8217;s house on Tuesday evening. 

The federal cabinet, headed by Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, strictly condemned the NATO air strikes, considering them as an attack on the &#8220;sovereignty of Pakistan&#8221;. 

&#8220;This is hardly the first time Pakistani sovereignty has been infringed by the United States. This seems to be the case that the United States regards Pakistan as a free fire zone. Which it is at liberty to abuse the country&#8217;s sovereignty with no need for apology or address,&#8221; John Rees from the Stop the War Coalition told RT.


PM Yousuf Raza Gilani promised there would be no more business as usual with Washington.

Pakistan believes that the NATO attacks on border check-posts in Mohmand tribal area near the Afghan border were deliberate and were carried out in violation of coordination procedures. 


"The positions of the posts were already conveyed to the ISAF through map references and it was impossible that they did not know these to be our posts,&#8221; Director General Military Operations (DG MO), Maj Gen Ishfaq Nadeem told reporters on Tuesday.


But the US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that the border killing of Pakistan soldiers was a "tragic incident," and pledged an investigation "as swiftly and thoroughly as possible."

However, the Pakistani government has demanded that the US vacate an airbase used for drone attacks and has closed a vital US military supply route to Afghanistan.


&#8220;One third to one half of all of supplies that go to NATO forces go through Pakistan. This is going to have a major impact. No question about it,&#8221; explained former CIA officer Philip Giraldi, talking to RT. 


Previously, the prime minister has stated that Pakistan&#8217;s relations with the United States can only continue with mutual respect and mutual interest and must be based on trust, equality and mutual benefit.


Meanwhile, the US has urged Pakistan to reconsider its decision to boycott a conference on Afghanistan.


Commenting on the boycott, US State Department spokesman Mark Toner said that the United States believes &#8220;it is very much in Pakistan's interest to attend this meeting.&#8221;


&#8220;It&#8217;s in their interests, so we think it is important that they be there,&#8221; Toner told reporters. &#8220;Pakistan has a crucial role to play in supporting a secure and stable and prosperous Afghanistan.&#8221;


Afghan President Hamid Karzai has also called for the Pakistani Prime Minister to reconsider the boycott. 


It was said in the official statement that Afghanistan regards &#8220;Pakistan as an important country and is &#8220;optimistic they will attend the Bonn conference.&#8221;

PM Gilani&#8217;s office issued a statement confirming that Karzai had asked the prime minister to reconsider, but said: "How could a country whose own sovereignty and territorial integrity was violated from Afghan soil play such a constructive role?"


German Chancellor Angela Merkel has also said that she was &#8220;very sorry&#8221; about Pakistan&#8217;s decision and that she would try to convince the country to send a delegation.


&#8220;We are both interested in constructive development of Afghanistan,&#8221; Merkel, who will open the Bonn meeting, she said at the joint press conference with the King Abdullah II of Jordan. 


The biggest rift between the two countries came six months ago when the US violated Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty to assassinate Osama Bin laden. 


Navy SEALs raided his compound keeping Pakistani intelligence in the dark about the operation, dealing a massive blow to the already-troubled relations. 


Some experts believe America&#8217;s alliance with Pakistan has become less of a benefit and more of a liability.


&#8220;There are two clear choices for America today, historically speaking. Either to expand the war and come into Pakistan to open another front. It&#8217;s not going to be a joke. Pakistan can do things, in desperation, they can not even imagine. It can trigger a third world war and I am warning you. Second is that they decide to [get] out,&#8221; former Pakistani intelligence chief Hamid Gul told RT.


Offended Pakistan skips Afghan peace talks &mdash; RT


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## illusion8

r3alist said:


> nato cannot indefinitely isolate pakistan.
> 
> right now nato needs to remove any ammunition for pakistan to continue this stance, this means patching up with pakistan.
> 
> americans can be pragmatic when they need to, so they will look to mend this, BUT they have also laid the groundwork to marginalize pakistan, this is their intention, pakistan cannot change that, this seems to be the path.
> 
> therefore pakistan should look to hold their ground if nato have already decided to discard and demonise pakistan, because pakistan for this brief moment has the upper ground and can gain some concessions.



It seems like Pakistan is playing into the hands of the US by not going, it is an emotional decision rather than a rational one in not going, Pakistan should take long term policy decisions rather than knee jerk ones. I may be wrong though..


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## iPhone

Mercenary said:


> All Military supplies are shipped via air transport.
> 
> They use Pakistan to transport non-lethal supplies such as Food, Medicine, Clothes, etc.
> 
> And they use Pakistan to transport 45% of their supplies. 55% goes through Central Asia and plus they have stockpiled 7 months of surplus suppliesp so even if all supplies are completely stopped they can go on for 7 months.
> 
> And besides, they can call on their aviation assets to rush in more supplies.
> 
> Russia tried the same thing in 1948 when they cut off Berlin from supplies, the Allies responded with the Berlin Airlift which kept the city running.
> 
> Pakistan thinks it has an Ace up its sleeve. But it doesnt.



Non lethal supplies like food and medicine etc: military has to eat right? Be treated and clothed, right? Hence the term military supplies. And I disagree that all those are non combative supplies as there are many reports of small arms being transported.

Seven months of supplies readily available: At what point would you start worrying going into your reserve knowing that incoming source has been either entirely stopped or is limited? I would say right at the moment you find out.

Alternate routes: I'm all for it. They can use whatever suitable and feasibility routes they want. We shouldn't be concerned. They think they do it wihout Pak, more power to them.

But what they won't do is economically punish Pakistan for non cooperation in this manner.


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## alimukhtar

illusion8 said:


> It seems like Pakistan is playing into the hands of the US by not going, it is an emotional decision rather than a rational one in not going, Pakistan should take long term policy decisions rather than knee jerk ones. I may be wrong though..



Yes you are wrong, BONN Conf is not about us, its about Afghanistan & America, we were juz taking part as allied, but y we now?


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## matrix_neo

Jackdaws said:


> I hate to burst the bubble but in diplomatic terms, "expressing deep shock" is a very neutral response which neither supports Pakistan nor supports NATO. If China wanted to express solidarity with Pakistan in diplomatic terms, it would have "condemned" the attacks, one step below that would "expressed outrage", one step below would be "expressed regret" - "deep shock" in diplomatic terms in a not a statement of support.



man!!! u r a diplomacy expert!!!


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## alimukhtar

Pakistani think tank is thinking about to close the Naval Ports also for NATO... Sources......


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## JonAsad

Al Bhatti said:


> Something evil came to my mind last night. Is there "memogate 2" currently running behind the scenes?
> 
> 
> It might be very much possible. Who knows probably this time it will be army vs civilian govt. unlike "memogate 1" or maybe the same civilian govt. vs. army or maybe ................... (other options are also available)



Well yesterday night a thoguht came in my mind aswell-
Amrika used apache attack helicopter for the attacks on Pakistani post on 26/11-
Pleasing india No?-
1. India is buying apche?- Nice way for amrika to demonstrate its destructive capabilities?- 
2. 26/11 will be the day of grief for Pakistani aswell- thus India Happy?-

One Arrow Two Targets?-
Or
Maybe vid of the attack will be shown to the indians as presentation of Apache capabilities?-

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## regular

Mercenary said:


> Although I don't agree with you...I love reading you replies....they sound very gagster


Yes! ure right cuz U can't agree with my info cuz I know why ......cuz there are some pplz watching on U so that U might not say truth somewhere or accept it by anyways......
Oh ! BTW Yea! U right about my replies cuz I gotta keep watch on worlds gangsters so that they won't mess around so much with the innocent pplz......


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## VCheng

Areesh said:


> The famous drug addict
> 
> Nadeem F. Paracha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





I am *no *"Nadeem Paracha" on _ANY _of the "qualities" you mention. 

My views are simply mine, logical and impartial.

========================

To stay on topic, the supply routes should resume within one month.


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## Irfan Baloch

indianrabbit said:


> From so far what is present in public, it appears that NATO is on wrong side, but I am unable to digest why they will attack like told. I am strong supporter of US because I work here and want to have loyalties right. But still Pakistan's story is stronger.




I appreciate what you are saying and I also understand your concerns. you need to be careful what you say over the web in the country of dreams and freedom.

its noble to think independently and with out prejudice and people who do that make their name, the ones that do within the army are called soldiers of conscience and whistle blowers that&#8217;s what enabled to show the real war stories that NATO/ US tried to hide that included the gruesome incidents of collecting body parts of civilians by the American kill teams, what they did in jail and how they giggled while killing civilians and school children from helicopters in Iraq.

Do you recall the story of &#8220;saving&#8221; a female American soldier from Iraqi Hospital? It was dubbed as &#8220;saving private jane&#8221; and was later it was found out that there was no resistance and the only Iraqis the rescue team encountered were Iraqi medics and doctors that were attending the American female soldier.

The killing of a British hostage Linda Norgrove while trying to free her from Taliban was another story that was blamed on Taliban but was later on found out that it was the ruthless and careless use of grenades by the Americans that lead to her death, further revelations were hushed up.

Moving on, a young aspiring American football champion Pat Tillman decided to joined the army when 9/11 was fresh and became the face of the proud American saving its freedom, he died from the hail of bullets of his own comrades but his death was dubbed by the Pentagon and its propaganda machinery together with the &#8220;like minded&#8221; news media as a brave son who valiantly led his forces and died from Taliban fire. There are many stories and the might not be any more since the only organised whistle blowing organisation is going to loose its founder Julian once he is extradited to America.

Coming to our own incident, we already have so much bad press about us that the western media that whatever story or explanation will come out from NATO&#8217;s &#8220;investigation&#8221; will be readily accepted anyone else will be blamed for this attack bar the NATO or US. Who does it leave you with? The phantom Taliban or the dead Pakistanis.

I am sorry that you are having to read all this which might get you into trouble but since you showed a sign of someone who can comment beyond our (Indo-Pak) rivalry so I thought to share few things with you. 

I will once again like to link my post if someone or you have missed it where I have picked up few scenarios and also have guessed the possible outcome of the NATO &#8220;investigation&#8221;.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-unprovoked-night-attack-168.html#post2340361

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## MilSpec

mm. coming back to the topic of pakistan closing it's airspace, their seems to be bigger problem in pakistani establishment. Every major foreign affairs/geo-political decision in pakistan for last 3-4 years seems to be "reactionary". Foresight in geo-strategic domain is completely missing, and most of the major issues like afganistan, Taliban, drones, american spies, baluchistan, etc. seems to be coming from knee jerk reactions. Did pakistani establishment not realize that hot pursuit strikes may cause military casualties. This is not the first strike, there have been 7 others before this one. It seems that the civilian leadership is so heavily entangled in domestic politics that, issue for foreign policy has been neglected by the real players who are busy trying to play vote-bank tricks. 

Unless pakistan finds, a strong leadership which can dictate its terms domestically, it will be hard for them put any pressure on US. Maybe someone who has the charismatic qualities of Z A bhutto, is the need of the hour?

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## sreekimpact

Irfan Baloch said:


> I appreciate what you are saying and I also understand your concerns. you need to be careful what you say over the web in the country of dreams and freedom.
> 
> its noble to think independently and with out prejudice and people who do that make their name, the ones that do within the army are called soldiers of conscience and whistle blowers that&#8217;s what enabled to show the real war stories that NATO/ US tried to hide that included the gruesome incidents of collecting body parts of civilians by the American kill teams, what they did in jail and how they giggled while killing civilians and school children from helicopters in Iraq.
> 
> Do you recall the story of &#8220;saving&#8221; a female American soldier from Iraqi Hospital? It was dubbed as &#8220;saving private jane&#8221; and was later it was found out that there was no resistance and the only Iraqis the rescue team encountered were Iraqi medics and doctors that were attending the American female soldier.
> 
> The killing of a British hostage Linda Norgrove while trying to free her from Taliban was another story that was blamed on Taliban but was later on found out that it was the ruthless and careless use of grenades by the Americans that lead to her death, further revelations were hushed up.
> 
> Moving on, a young aspiring American football champion Pat Tillman decided to joined the army when 9/11 was fresh and became the face of the proud American saving its freedom, he died from the hail of bullets of his own comrades but his death was dubbed by the Pentagon and its propaganda machinery together with the &#8220;like minded&#8221; news media as a brave son who valiantly led his forces and died from Taliban fire. There are many stories and the might not be any more since the only organised whistle blowing organisation is going to loose its founder Julian once he is extradited to America.
> 
> Coming to our own incident, we already have so much bad press about us that the western media that whatever story or explanation will come out from NATO&#8217;s &#8220;investigation&#8221; will be readily accepted anyone else will be blamed for this attack bar the NATO or US. Who does it leave you with? The phantom Taliban or the dead Pakistanis.
> 
> I am sorry that you are having to read all this which might get you into trouble but since you showed a sign of someone who can comment beyond our (Indo-Pak) rivalry so I thought to share few things with you.
> 
> I will once again like to link my post if someone or you have missed it where I have picked up few scenarios and also have guessed the possible outcome of the NATO &#8220;investigation&#8221;.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-unprovoked-night-attack-168.html#post2340361







Nice pOst  ..well written


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## indushek

Irfan Baloch said:


> I appreciate what you are saying and I also understand your concerns. you need to be careful what you say over the web in the country of dreams and freedom.
> 
> its noble to think independently and with out prejudice and people who do that make their name, the ones that do within the army are called soldiers of conscience and whistle blowers that&#8217;s what enabled to show the real war stories that NATO/ US tried to hide that included the gruesome incidents of collecting body parts of civilians by the American kill teams, what they did in jail and how they giggled while killing civilians and school children from helicopters in Iraq.
> 
> Do you recall the story of &#8220;saving&#8221; a female American soldier from Iraqi Hospital? It was dubbed as &#8220;saving private jane&#8221; and was later it was found out that there was no resistance and the only Iraqis the rescue team encountered were Iraqi medics and doctors that were attending the American female soldier.
> 
> The killing of a British hostage Linda Norgrove while trying to free her from Taliban was another story that was blamed on Taliban but was later on found out that it was the ruthless and careless use of grenades by the Americans that lead to her death, further revelations were hushed up.
> 
> Moving on, a young aspiring American football champion Pat Tillman decided to joined the army when 9/11 was fresh and became the face of the proud American saving its freedom, he died from the hail of bullets of his own comrades but his death was dubbed by the Pentagon and its propaganda machinery together with the &#8220;like minded&#8221; news media as a brave son who valiantly led his forces and died from Taliban fire. There are many stories and the might not be any more since the only organised whistle blowing organisation is going to loose its founder Julian once he is extradited to America.
> 
> Coming to our own incident, we already have so much bad press about us that the western media that whatever story or explanation will come out from NATO&#8217;s &#8220;investigation&#8221; will be readily accepted anyone else will be blamed for this attack bar the NAT or US. Who does it leave you with? The phantom Taliban or the dead Pakistanis.
> 
> I am sorry that you are having to read all this which might get you into trouble but since you showed a sign of someone who can comment beyond our (Indo-Pak) rivalry so I thought to share few things with you.
> 
> I will once again like my post if someone or you have missed it where I have picked up few scenarios and also have guessed the possible outcome of the NATO &#8220;investigation&#8221;.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-unprovoked-night-attack-168.html#post2340361



I have read that post of yours pointing out Russians and some others being involved. OF all the Russians part is some what stretched at first but seems ok after a bit. So the result of "investigation" is a foregone conclusion, if so Americans are in a quandry aren't they?? Will Pakistan fall back or the NATO relent and get in line?? what will be the outcome of this current face off. I know Pakistan taken all the diplomatic measures right now, what further??


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## patna_ke_presley

Areesh said:


> The famous drug addict cum journalist cum satirist cum story writer cum idiot.
> 
> Nadeem F. Paracha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I heard of other F. Paracha of Jamat e Islami. He spit too much venom against Hindus.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

indushek said:


> I have read that post of yours pointing out Russians and some others being involved. OF all the Russians part is some what stretched at first but seems ok after a bit. So the result of "investigation" is a foregone conclusion, if so Americans are in a quandry aren't they?? Will Pakistan fall back or the NATO relent and get in line?? what will be the outcome of this current face off. I know Pakistan taken all the diplomatic measures right now, what further??



that will be the end of it. nothing further

why?


because Pakistan has to coexist with Afghanistan, and a peaceful and stable Afghanistan means Pakistan is safe and stable too.
the terrorists that are using the buffer between the two at their discretion at the time of this turmoil will have less space to exist and will perish.
Re NATO, I don&#8217;t really know what their actual aims are. Their actions are anything but friendly and if this a way to convince Pakistan to start Operation in North Waziristan then this approach will fail badly whether Pakistan does it not doesn&#8217;t. because it wont have anything to spare where its currently deployed, with its military &#8220;aid&#8221; cut off for few years now there is not enough resource to commit on NATO&#8217;s will.

NATO has scored an own goal regarding its own war efforts but out of sheer arrogance and military might its reluctant to admit it. The irony is that the ones that will be spelling out the findings of the &#8220;investigations&#8221; are the ones who would have given a go ahead to the attack and are the ones who actually ignored the &#8220;blue on blue&#8221; calls from the Pakistanis. That makes the pretty much mockery of the investigation or any peace move hence joining any investigation or future peace conferences is a waste of time.

If India and Pakistan also sit down on the table after wars so will NATO and Pakistan after a while and as the universal law dictates &#8220;Might is right&#8221; you don&#8217;t need to think who will back down and who will triumph and will be proven on the right. United nations, international court of justice and all that are just for window dressing, they mean toss all. The jungle law still prevails when the men used to go out for &#8220;clubbing&#8221; (look it up if you are not sure what I am talking about)

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## ufone

A/A
Dear friends i dont think we are going to do anything extraordinary, closing the airbases and supply routes is actually a matter of time till mercury dips. This is because we have always worked for the intrests of others and tried everyway to deceive our nation both at military and political levels. The presence of drone on our airbase yr repeatedly denied by our officials and who knows about other airbases. This is deceat. what message r we giving to our nation? infact we should have been more drastic. We should have expelled them from every nook and corner of our motherland, give a strong signal to our neighbour whose land is used against pak. By freezing the diplomatic channels, calling back our ambassidor and shunt theirs because this is not so simple as one may think , imagine another india, israel on ur western border.


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## indushek

Irfan Baloch said:


> that will be the end of it. nothing further
> 
> why?
> 
> 
> because Pakistan has to coexist with Afghanistan, and a peaceful and stable Afghanistan means Pakistan is safe and stable too.
> the terrorists that are using the buffer between the two at their discretion at the time of this turmoil will have less space to exist and will perish.
> Re NATO, I don&#8217;t really know what their actual aims are. Their actions are anything but friendly and if this a way to convince Pakistan to start Operation in North Waziristan then this approach will fail badly whether Pakistan does it not doesn&#8217;t. because it wont have anything to spare where its currently deployed, with its military &#8220;aid&#8221; cut off for few years now there is not enough resource to commit on NATO&#8217;s will.
> 
> NATO has scored an own goal regarding its own war efforts but out of sheer arrogance and military might its reluctant to admit it. The irony is that the ones that will be spelling out the findings of the &#8220;investigations&#8221; are the ones who would have given a go ahead to the attack and are the ones who actually ignored the &#8220;blue on blue&#8221; calls from the Pakistanis. That makes the pretty much mockery of the investigation or any peace move hence joining any investigation or future peace conferences is a waste of time.
> 
> If India and Pakistan also sit down on the table after wars so will NATO and Pakistan after a while and as the universal law dictates &#8220;Might is right&#8221; you don&#8217;t need to think who will back down and who will triumph and will be proven on the right. United nations, international court of justice and all that are just for window dressing, they mean toss all. The jungle law still prevails when the men used to go out for &#8220;clubbing&#8221; (look it up if you are not sure what I am talking about)



You don't think Pakistan will get back to normal with NATO then? Your post pretty much say this is the end of Pakistan's role in WOT then. My question was never about who will triumph, i am just trying to gauge the future which in itself is impossible. My question is about WOT and Pakistan's role in it. NATO can't just forget Pakistan saying "oh we bungled it and they are angry" so forget them. Pakistan cannot think well we almost cut off our diplomatic relations so let us forget what is happening in the neighborhood can they?

In this context can u please answer again what will happen next?


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## MilSpec

Irfan Baloch said:


> y so I thought to share few things with you.
> 
> I will once again like to link my post if someone or you have missed it where I have picked up few scenarios and also have guessed the possible outcome of the NATO &#8220;investigation&#8221;.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-unprovoked-night-attack-168.html#post2340361




So... are you suggesting Pakistani establishment should investigate????


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## Irfan Baloch

indushek said:


> You don't think Pakistan will get back to normal with NATO then? Your post pretty much say this is the end of Pakistan's role in WOT then. My question was never about who will triumph, i am just trying to gauge the future which in itself is impossible. My question is about WOT and Pakistan's role in it. NATO can't just forget Pakistan saying "oh we bungled it and they are angry" so forget them. Pakistan cannot think well we almost cut off our diplomatic relations so let us forget what is happening in the neighborhood can they?
> 
> In this context can u please answer again what will happen next?



pretty much answered in the first sentence of the last para, re what will happen, both will start to work together again according to the dictation and wishes of the stornger of the two.

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## Developereo

What if Pakistan orders NATO supply planes to stop flying over Pak airspace, but NATO continues anyway? Will we shoot down a NATO plane?


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## patna_ke_presley

To Afghanistan, on the slow train - CNN.com

some main points:-
1) The northern routes are safer and more reliable, but not entirely immune to disruption. Relations between the U.S. and Russia are sometimes tense (over such issues as the ballistic missile defense shield), and central Asian states have taken offense at U.S. complaints about their human rights record. Even so, *Russia gains advantages from allowing its territory to be used; it doesn't want Afghanistan sliding into chaos.* Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said at the U.S./Russia summit 2009: *"We value the efforts that are being made by the United States together with the other countries in order to prevent the terrorist threat that was emanating and still coming from the Afghan soil."*

2)The NDN benefits plenty of other parties. For Uzbekistan, it helps defray the heavy cost of investment in its railway network, largely with loans from Asian banks, and increases demand for local goods. For Riga and other ports, it provides income at a time when economic growth is weak. And most of all, Afghanistan stands to benefit from the "transformational potential" (in the words of one U.S. diplomat) of a rail network that could make it an Asian transport hub.

*At least rivals do co-operate for common threat.*

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## Developereo

Putin will almost certainly be back next March. That alone will burn the midnight oil in the Oval Office!

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## Saifullah Sani

*Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes*
By ALAN CULLISON

MOSCOWRussia said it may not let NATO use its territory to supply troops in Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't seriously consider its objections to a U.S.-led missile shield for Europe, Russia's ambassador to NATO said Monday.

Russia has stepped up its objections to the antimissile system in Europe, threatening last week to deploy its own ballistic missiles on the border of the European Union to counter the move. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization says the shield is meant to thwart an attack from a rogue state such as Iran, that it poses no threat to Russia, and that the alliance will go ahead with the plan despite Moscow's objections.

If NATO doesn't give a serious response, "we have to address matters in relations in other areas," Russian news services reported Dmitri Rogozin, ambassador to NATO, as saying. He added that Russia's cooperation on Afghanistan may be an area for review, the news services reported.

Threats to the NATO supply line through Russia come at an awkward time for the alliance. NATO has become increasingly reliant on the Russian route as problems in Pakistanits primary supply routehave escalated. Over the weekend, Pakistan closed its border to trucks delivering supplies in response to coalition airstrikes Saturday that killed 25 Pakistani soldiers.

NATO began shipping its supplies through Russia in 2009, after the so-called reset in relations between Moscow and the U.S., allowing the alliance a safer route for supplies into Afghanistan. But U.S.-Russian relations have been strained lately by the approach of elections in both countries. In the past week, the Kremlin has sharply stepped up its anti-Western rhetoric ahead of parliamentary elections on Dec. 4.

Ivan Safranchuk, deputy director of the Moscow-based Institute of Contemporary International Studies, said Russia is unlikely to cut off the flow of NATO supplies to Afghanistan as an immediate response to missile-defense decisions. But Russia does want its objections to the missile shield to be taken more seriously, he said.

"If the U.S. is not responsive, then a cutoff could be a reality at some point," Mr. Safranchuk said. "Russia would like the U.S. to be more serious about Russian concerns."
Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes - WSJ.com


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## patna_ke_presley

Saifullah Sani said:


> *Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes*
> By ALAN CULLISON
> 
> MOSCOWRussia said it may not let NATO use its territory to supply troops in Afghanistan if the alliance doesn't seriously consider its objections to a U.S.-led missile shield for Europe, Russia's ambassador to NATO said Monday.
> 
> Russia has stepped up its objections to the antimissile system in Europe, threatening last week to deploy its own ballistic missiles on the border of the European Union to counter the move. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization says the shield is meant to thwart an attack from a rogue state such as Iran, that it poses no threat to Russia, and that the alliance will go ahead with the plan despite Moscow's objections.
> 
> If NATO doesn't give a serious response, "we have to address matters in relations in other areas," Russian news services reported Dmitri Rogozin, ambassador to NATO, as saying. He added that Russia's cooperation on Afghanistan may be an area for review, the news services reported.
> 
> Threats to the NATO supply line through Russia come at an awkward time for the alliance. NATO has become increasingly reliant on the Russian route as problems in Pakistanits primary supply routehave escalated. Over the weekend, Pakistan closed its border to trucks delivering supplies in response to coalition airstrikes Saturday that killed 25 Pakistani soldiers.
> 
> NATO began shipping its supplies through Russia in 2009, after the so-called reset in relations between Moscow and the U.S., allowing the alliance a safer route for supplies into Afghanistan. But U.S.-Russian relations have been strained lately by the approach of elections in both countries. In the past week, the Kremlin has sharply stepped up its anti-Western rhetoric ahead of parliamentary elections on Dec. 4.
> 
> *Ivan Safranchuk, deputy director of the Moscow-based Institute of Contemporary International Studies, said Russia is unlikely to cut off the flow of NATO supplies to Afghanistan as an immediate response to missile-defense decisions. But Russia does want its objections to the missile shield to be taken more seriously, he said.*
> 
> "If the U.S. is not responsive, then a cutoff could be a reality at some point," Mr. Safranchuk said. "Russia would like the U.S. to be more serious about Russian concerns."
> Russia Considers Blocking NATO Supply Routes - WSJ.com



You missed that point bro. Any way Americans have *third supply route Georgia-Azerbaijan-Kazakhstan-Uzbekistan* without going through Russia.

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## bdslph

*Pakistan calls NATO raid 'act of aggression'*
Military official says cross-border operation that killed 24 soldiers was deliberate as Clinton again voices regret.
Last Modified: 30 Nov 2011 06:44
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Pakistanis held daily protests against the NATO strike, with some calling on Islamabad to cut ties with US [AFP]

The Pakistani military has called the NATO cross-border air attack on a military checkpoint that killed 24 soldiers a deliberate act of aggression.

In a briefing to editors carried in local newspapers on Wednesday, Ishfaq Nadeem, director-general of military operations, said NATO forces were alerted they were attacking Pakistani posts, but helicopters kept firing at them.

Al Jazeera's Imtiaz Tyab, reporting from Islamabad, described Nadeem's detailed account of NATO's attack in the early hours of Saturday morning.

"[Nadeem] said two of their posts were attacked by the alliance forces for 15 minutes. They [Pakistani army] called NATO and informed their counterparts on the other side of the border that they were being attacked," he said. 

"What happened next was interesting because they [NATO] stopped [attacking] and then, only 15 minutes later, these helicopters came back and attacked the [Pakistani] checkpoints again.

"The Pakistanis said they did retaliate, they fired mortars and anti-aircraft shells, but that wasn't enough to turn the helicopters around."

Conference boycott

The Pakistani general's remarks come on top of the country's announcement of a boycott of an international conference in Germany on Afghanistan's future next week.

The Bonn conference is aimed at bringing all major stakeholders together in securing a peaceful Afghanistan after NATO combat troops leave at the end of 2014.

"Pakistan has decided not to attend the Bonn conference as a protest," a government official told the Reuters news agency after a cabinet meeting chaired by Yousuf Raza Gilani, the Pakistan prime minister, in Lahore.

Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, voiced regret on Wednesday over Pakistan's decision and urged it to reconsider.

Speaking at South Korea, Clinton said that the US stance that the border killing of Pakistani soldiers was a "tragic incident" and pledged an investigation "as swiftly and thoroughly as possible".

"Frankly this is regrettable that Pakistan has decided not to attend the conference in Bonn because this conference has been long in the planning," she said.

"Pakistan like the United States has a profound interest in a secure, stable and increasingly democratic Afghanistan," Clinton said.

Youtube video

Pakistan says the NATO attack on two combat outposts led to 13 people being wounded in addition to the deaths.

A YouTube video - said to show the aftermath of the NATO raid - has been shown on Pakistani television. It appears to show soldiers attending to the injured and the bodies of those killed in the attack.

Al Jazeera cannot independently verify the video's authenticity.

Pakistan shut NATO's supply routes into Afghanistan and ordered the US to leave an airbase in the southwest of the country immediately after the attack.
Pakistan held funerals for the slain soldiers on Friday

Al Jazeera's Tyab says that is much public anger in Pakistan over the attack.

"All across the country we have seen protests against the US," he said.

"People in Pakistan are saying they simply don't want the US to be in the region anymore. They want Pakistan to leave the so-called war on terror and break their alliance with US."

The checkpoint that was attacked had been recently set up in the Mohmand tribal area by the Pakistan army to stop Taliban fighters holed up in Afghanistan from crossing the border and staging attacks, according to two government administrators in Mohmand.

NATO has described the killings as a "tragic, unintended incident". US officials say a NATO investigation and a separate US one will seek to determine what happened.

The US investigation will provide initial findings by December 23, military officials said.

Earlier, Pakistan's foreign minister told the US of her "deep sense of rage" after NATO said it was probably to blame for the incident.

In a telephone conversation with Clinton, Hina Rabbani Khar said the attack was "totally unacceptable".

"They demonstrate complete disregard for international law and human life, and are in stark violation of Pakistani sovereignty," she said.
Source:
Al Jazeera and agencies

Pakistan calls NATO raid 'act of aggression' - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English


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## Khan_patriot

It would be a joy to see the Pakistani admin to deny NATO its supply routes and then the Russians doing the same and this would surely weaken the western imperialist dream..........


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## VCheng

Developereo said:


> What if Pakistan orders NATO supply planes to stop flying over Pak airspace, but NATO continues anyway? Will we shoot down a NATO plane?



Such a scenario would represent a significant escalation in the hostile positions taken by both sides, and it would be best to avoid it.

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## bdslph

they the Russian must have a plan before they said that but still usa wont get what they use to get from Pakistan


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## alimukhtar

Developereo said:


> What if Pakistan orders NATO supply planes to stop flying over Pak airspace, but NATO continues anyway? Will we shoot down a NATO plane?



If justified neutrally NATO/ISAF planes should be shoot down..... in such case, 
w/o any warning, info.....


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## Developereo

patna_ke_presley said:


> You missed that point bro. Any way Americans have *third supply route Georgia-Azerbaijan-Kazakhstan-Uzbekistan* without going through Russia.



Pakistan border closure will have little effect on Nato's Afghanistan campaign | World news | The Guardian

_The route through Uzbekistan is currently in question, however, after a key bridge near the Afghan border was damaged by an explosion 10 days ago and has been closed since.

Neither the US nor the Uzbeks have commented on the cause of the explosion, although there are fears it could be the work of *the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which is allied to the Taliban*._


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## POPS

i find it quite amusing when pakistanies start jumping about russia or for that matter any country tries to wrestel with US/NATO but when it comes to sttoping nato supploes inside pakistan everything fizzels out after a breif spurt of immossions & nothing happens & to put cherry on the toping all pkistanies start celebrating as hell

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## Pfpilot

alimukhtar said:


> If justified neutrally NATO/ISAF planes should be shoot down..... in such case,
> w/o any warning, info.....



What is justified? We keep asking for fairness, but the world has never been about fairness...as the pre WWII Germans will attest to. We are dealing with a coalition that is far stronger in ever way, than us. They dictate the terms of this relationship, if we don't like them, we should have never agreed to work with them. Pakistan, more than any nation on this planet, knew how short term American interests are...we still went running to them, because our leaders saw a get rich quick shortcut. 
Now that we have entered in a deal with the devil, we have to stop acting shocked, every time we get burned. And if we shoot down a NATO aircraft with the greatest of justification, verifiable by countless neutral resources...I can guarantee, the Americans will not sit back and engage in rhetoric; they will strike back hard...they make the rules and as such, will never adhere to the same rules they expect the lesser nations to abide by.

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## Al Bhatti

alimukhtar said:


> If justified neutrally NATO/ISAF planes should be shoot down..... in such case,
> w/o any warning, info.....



If there are radars in the first place to track them then locking on them and then wait for the orders.


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## Riz

Lankan Ranger said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...fghanistan-switching-afghan-army-control.html


 
poor reporting , the heading should be like this, Hialf of kabil handovers to afghan army till the last day of usa withdrawal


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

President Camacho said:


> More than on images of babies getting kissed and kids and widows mourning... Pakistan has a very long way to go before it can have independent section of media that is utterly critical of the soldiers and the military, and even goes on to lie about the soldiers & military without fearing any prosecution or persecution.


You have not been paying attention to the Pakistani media then - refresh your memory by recalling the commentary and coverage in both the print and vernacular television channels, about the military when the country was run by a military dictator.

The problem is that too many liberals/Indians/Westerners don't want to accept the fact that anti-American sentiment in Pakistan is not due to any 'ISI/PA conspiracy or media manipulation' but because US policies towards Pakistan have no potential of 'winning hearts and minds', and rather than accept the failure of US policy, the West/liberals choose to create a bogeyman of 'ISI/PA is manipulating the media to foment anti-American sentiment'.


> Infallible deity - they are in Pakistan. In the States, well you live there AM, you should know better than that.


I do know how they are treated in the US media, and it is with far less criticizm than we see in the Pakistani media.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan Army should deploy its MRLS ARTIllery and latest Tanks and If Nato attacks again they should strike back as soon as possible


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## tony singh

Nato account for what happened differs with the Pakistani view (not suprising). Bottom line is that drone attacks will continue even if US pulls out of the airbase because it can use Afghan side in order to achieve it's goal.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Unprovoked: DGMO gives details of aerial assault​*By Quatrina Hosain
Published: November 30, 2011

_*The two helicopters had pulled back midway through giving the impression the attack had ended, but returned for another attack that night. *_

ISLAMABAD: 
The Nato attack on two military check posts in the Mohmand Agency early Saturday morning was an unprovoked act of blatant aggression, said the Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) Major General Ishfaq Nadeem on Tuesday, adding that all options remained open to the government and the military. The final decision rests with the prime minister. We are considering a range of options, he told journalists at a briefing, adding that the military will have its input into the decisions taken. A review of the incident is under way at the GHQ, he said.

The DGMO said he was not authorised to comment on what specific counter measures were being considered to cope with such situations in the future and added these would be finalised after the completion of the continuing investigation into the incident.

He went into comprehensive detail about the sequence of events known so far, explaining that a check post code-named Volcano first came under attack at around 15 to 30 minutes after midnight. A nearby check post, code-named Boulder, responded with 12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons and mortars after the Volcano check post came under attack from gunship helicopters.

Subsequently, check post Boulder also came under attack and all communication was lost with both check posts. But before communication was lost, company commander Major Mujahid headed for Volcano and Boulder to investigate and was killed as the helicopters re-engaged. Amongst the 24 men killed that night was also Captain Usman who leaves behind a widow and a 3-month-old baby daughter.

The DGMO said the two posts were located at a place from where there has been no cross-border infiltration, though militant attacks from the other side had been continuing. Settled villages were two-three kilometres away from the posts and the posts themselves were about 300-400 metres inside Pakistan borders.

The two check posts, he maintained, could not be mistaken for militant sanctuaries because the other side had been provided all available information about the number of Pakistani posts and their locations. The men at the posts were uniformed and the posts were well-defined. The DGMO further said the Pakistan Army believed that Nato was monitoring the transmissions that night and knew they had hit Volcano checkpost.

The posts were being manned by the experienced and battle-hardened 7-AK battalion which was equipped with both line and wireless communications equipment, but armed for dealing only with militant activity but not repelling an aerial assault. The troops are geared for fighting terrorists and not border security, he said.

The Pakistan Army maintains an 8,200 man presence in Mohmand Agency following military operations to clear the region of militants, with 29 border checkposts in along the border while there are only 14 on the Afghan side, manned predominantly by Afghan police. A total of 820 check posts are maintained in the tribal belt along the border.

By 1 a.m. all channels of communications with the other side were activated and the helicopters were pulled back. But as Pakistani troops moved from one post to the other to assess the damage and aid the injured, the helicopters reappeared and pinned them down. Some 26 artillery airbursts were fired by the Pakistani side and the engagement lasted until 0215.

Answering a question, he said the civil authorities including the president, the prime minister and the foreign and defence ministers were informed in the morning about the incident which began around midnight and lasted for two hours.

The reason for the implied delay in informing the civil authorities, he said, was because a complete picture had not emerged until daybreak.

It was clear from General Nadeems briefing that there was misleading information being provided to the Pakistan military from the start. Just before the attack, a Pakistani officer at the regional tactical center was informed by an American sergeant that their special forces had received indirect fire from Gora Pai, located some 15 kilometres away from Volcano post. And after 7 minutes, a woman officer informed him that the fire had, in fact, come from Volcano, which had been hit in retaliation.
The DGMO was dismissive of previous joint inquiries conducted into three earlier incidents. There have been joint inquiries and they all came to naught. They give a version not based on facts as we know them, he said, adding that Pakistan did not initiate firing at any point that night.

The DGMO listed the standard operating procedures that exists in the border coordination mechanism that entails sharing information on impending operations in advance, particularly if these operations come within two kilometers of the border; to immediately communicate if one side comes under fire with the responsibility to take action from the country from where the attack originated; and cessation of fire when communication established. All SOPs were violated that night, said General Nadeem.

He further elaborated that while the helicopters intruded into Pakistani airspace on an intermittent basis, supporting jets did not enter Pakistani airspace.

The central question remains why the Pakistan Air Force did not respond immediately to the attack. General Nadeem said there was a haze at the time, adding Pakistan Air Force interceptors did not scramble when the two helicopters from the other side violated the border, because initially it seemed the violation was only marginal.

Furthermore, according to him, the two helicopters had pulled back midway through giving the impression the attack had ended, but returned for another attack.

AVM (retd) Shahzad Chaudhry told Express Tribune that the air force could have scrambled but you have to decide if you want a shooting war with America. With only 200-300 meters between the border, our jets would have entered Afghanistan. It is the consequences you have to live with.
(Read: A grave crisis in Pakistan-US relations)

Published in The Express Tribune, November 30th, 2011.
âUnprovokedâ: DGMO gives details of aerial assault &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

tony singh said:


> Nato account for what happened differs with the Pakistani view (not suprising). Bottom line is that drone attacks will continue even if US pulls out of the airbase because it can use Afghan side in order to achieve it's goal.


NATO has no account - and the 'anonymous sources' accounts have changed every other day.

Pakistan on the other hand has released an official and detailed account of what happened that night:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/143902-pakistan-releases-details-about-nato-attack.html


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## tony singh

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> NATO has no account - and the 'anonymous sources' accounts have changed every other day.
> 
> Pakistan on the other hand has released an official and detailed account of what happened that night:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/143902-pakistan-releases-details-about-nato-attack.html




There are claims and counter claims for what happened on that attack:


Nato operations in Afghanistan have been thrown into disarray following Saturday's deaths. The US and allied commanders say they are investigating how the tragedy occurred. Both sides are making claims and counter-claims.

Claim 1: *US and Afghan commandos say they came under fire from inside Pakistan*. The resulting air strikes killed 24 soldiers, and injured 13. Nato says they were a regrettable mistake.

Counter-claim: *Pakistan says the attack was unprovoked*. The air and helicopter strikes were a catastrophic blunder, both military and diplomatic.

Claim 2: Nato says the incident happened when a mainly Afghan force was conducting an operation in the southern Kunar province. Someone fired on them, it says.

Counter-claim: The Pakistani military says this is rubbish. The assault was premeditated, "irresponsible" and deliberate against two mountain outposts known to Nato and US forces. The soldiers were 300 metres inside Pakistan, in the Mohmand tribal areas, recently cleared of militants.

Claim 3: Nato regrets the deaths and says they were "tragic and unintended".

Counter-claim: Pakistan says the attacks went on for almost two hours and continued even after Pakistani commanders asked coalition forces to stop. A spokesman said that if the Afghan-US patrol came under attack, where are its casualties?

Claim 4: Underlying US policy is the assumption that Pakistani forces are complicit in allowing Taliban militants to use Pakistan's tribal areas as a base.




Counter-claim: Pakistan's soldiers are doing an impossible job. They patrol a huge, porous, mountainous border, and frequently come under attack from Taliban sympathisers and from trigger-happy Nato-Afghan forces

Claim 5: US officials believe elements inside Pakistan's army and intelligence services give clandestine support to a resurgent Taliban. This support &#8211; in the form of weapons, know-how, safe havens &#8211; facilitates lethal attacks inside Afghanistan on US troops, and perpetuates a war that has already dragged on for over a decade.

Counter-claim: Pakistan is fighting its own desperate internal battle against Islamist extremism. The US, meanwhile, isn't helping. It flagrantly violates Pakistan's sovereignty. The latest deadly air-strikes are simply the most recent example; the raid which killed Osama bin Laden in May the most egregious.



Not saying who is right or wrong but their version of events do not tie in with Pakistani's side.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

tony singh said:


> There are claims and counter claims for what happened on:



Show me one 'official NATO claim'.

The link in my earlier post goes to a post listing an OFFICIAL and DETAILED Pakistani account of what transpired during the attack.


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## Safriz

Germany urges Pakistan to attend Afghan talks

you know why they are all insisting pakistan to go to bonn....because if pakistan wont be there who will they blame for their monumental failure...
To them pakistan is not an important ally...its the most important escape goat.

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## VelocuR

How about vacate Jacobabad Airbases after Shamsi Airbases? Any US drones deploying there?


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Show me one 'official NATO claim'.....................



Let's wait for December 23rd, shall we?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Let's wait for December 23rd, shall we?


No.

The facts are pretty clear as detailed by Pakistan so far.

A bunch of lies and propaganda out of NATO is not going to change that.

It does not take a month to interview/interrogate the individuals involved in the actions that occurred, and as Pakistan has pointed out, nothing came of the earlier investigations that occurred into prior incidents of 'friendly fire'.

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## fatman17

praful said:


> If incident lasted for so long... why didn't pakistan send the reinforcement ? There is a question mark on the Operational capabilities of PA.



you want us to start a WAR with the US? if they were indian assets, you would have seen a different reaction!

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## tony singh

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Show me one 'official NATO claim'.
> 
> The link in my earlier post goes to a post listing an OFFICIAL and DETAILED Pakistani account of what transpired during the attack.




NATO are going to investigate the incident, they will not give the 'official' version according to them just yet but im sure they will once it has been completed.

However will anyone in Nato put their hands up and say yes it was deliberate? I can't see that happening they will try to cover their backs and say it was a accident or that they were met with fire and in the process they acted in self defence.


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## mjnaushad

tony singh said:


> NATO are going to investigate the incident, they will not give the 'official' version according to them just yet but im sure they will once it has been completed.
> 
> *However will anyone in Nato put their hands up and say yes it was deliberate? I can't see that happening they will try to cover their backs and say it was a accident or that they were met with fire and in the process they acted in self defence*.



We are not expecting anything different.......


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *.........................and the posts themselves were about 300-400 metres inside Pakistan borders*.........



So NOT 2.5 km inside, as was initially claimed?

More details will show the story to be not as simple as initially thought.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No.
> 
> The facts are pretty clear as detailed by Pakistan so far.
> 
> A bunch of lies and propaganda out of NATO is not going to change that.
> 
> It does not take a month to interview/interrogate the individuals involved in the actions that occurred, and as Pakistan has pointed out, nothing came of the earlier investigations that occurred into prior incidents of 'friendly fire'.



Already, the Pakistani claim of the posts being 2.5 km inside the borders has been shown to be false. It would be better to wait for the NATO report too, I think.


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> Already, the Pakistani claim of the posts being 2.5 km inside the borders has been shown to be false. It would be better to wait for the NATO report too, I think.



Shown to be false by who?

If NATO was that truthful they wouldn't have changed their statement over and over again...Pakistan has shown the destroyed check post which is 2.5 Km inside borders.
And do you still believe that NATO will come up with a non biased independent investigation report? Stop living in fools paradise my dear sir.


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## tony singh

I might be going off topic but i fail to understand one thing why would NATO do this on purpose? this will hurt their cause much more just look at the reaction of Pakistan in not attending the Bonn meeting.


Is NATO this stupid? is the question


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> So NOT 2.5 km inside, as was initially claimed?
> 
> More details will show the story to be not as simple as initially thought.



But were clearly defined and positions conveyed to both CENTCOM and ISAF.

However.. the idea that after the communique between PA and the US forces about this being a friendly fire incident the choppers left.. and then RETURNED seems weird.
Was there a breakdown in the chain of command within the ISAF?
Was it just trigger happy US forces having fun?
Or were some Afghan Army forces taking advantage of the confusion to have the US attack us??
The US investigation better be very through..

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> So NOT 2.5 km inside, as was initially claimed?
> 
> More details will show the story to be not as simple as initially thought.



Was the 2.5KM detail in the media or and official claim by the ISPR or PA?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Already, the Pakistani claim of the posts being 2.5 km inside the borders has been shown to be false. It would be better to wait for the NATO report too, I think.


As I asked you elsewhere - did the DG ISPR make the 2.5Km claim and retract it, or was that promoted by the media?


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## fatman17

praful said:


> How it leads to a war with US ? *wern't your soldiers firing on the NATO *or were just sitting ducks ? Tomorrow if US do the same thing would you again put the same argument ? Come on they were pounding your post with impunity for more than 2 hrs that itself qualified as a war against Pakistan. I am not inciting you but the question will remain that what PA did to secure their invaluable assets ?



they were not - it was unprovoked.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Was the 2.5KM detail in the media or and official claim by the ISPR or PA?



the posts were 200-300meters from the border

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------




Santro said:


> But were clearly defined and positions conveyed to both CENTCOM and ISAF.
> 
> However.. the idea that after the communique between PA and the US forces about this being a friendly fire incident the choppers left.. and then RETURNED seems weird.
> Was there a breakdown in the chain of command within the ISAF?
> *Was it just trigger happy US forces having fun?*
> Or were some Afghan Army forces taking advantage of the confusion to have the US attack us??
> The US investigation better be very through..



thats my guess/bet

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## sohail.ishaque

Naxter: Pak Army Raiding Shamsi Airbase....

Not sure if the news is true.... but here it is...

&#1605;&#1606;&#1711;&#1604;, 29 &#1606;&#1608;&#1605;&#1576;&#1585; 2011 09:15
&#65279;

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## Safriz

tony singh said:


> I might be going off topic but i fail to understand one thing why would NATO do this on purpose? this will hurt their cause much more just look at the reaction of Pakistan in not attending the Bonn meeting.
> 
> 
> Is NATO this stupid? is the question



They were not expecting this type of reaction,they have got away with similar killings in the past,they were expecting to get away this time also,but after long time Pakistani nation finally woke up..


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## mjnaushad

tony singh said:


> I might be going off topic but i fail to understand one thing why would NATO do this on purpose? this will hurt their cause much more just look at the reaction of Pakistan in not attending the Bonn meeting.
> 
> 
> Is NATO this stupid? is the question



To pressurize pakistan to say yes to the so called well being of the region policies US will put in bonn conference.... Trying to convey the message that they have other options..... Because in turkey Pakistan rejected somethings US wanted Pakistan to do. Thats why they now trying all they can to drag us in bonn..... They dont talk much on this killings but trying all to make pakistan invite this bonn conference.....German chancelor said to PM if you cant come send FM, If FM cant come send your envoy in Germany....

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## VCheng

Santro said:


> But were clearly defined and positions conveyed to both CENTCOM and ISAF.
> 
> However.. the idea that after the communique between PA and the US forces about this being a friendly fire incident the choppers left.. and then RETURNED seems weird.
> Was there a breakdown in the chain of command within the ISAF?
> Was it just trigger happy US forces having fun?
> Or were some Afghan Army forces taking advantage of the confusion to have the US attack us??
> The US investigation better be very through..


 


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Was the 2.5KM detail in the media or and official claim by the ISPR or PA?



That is one of the many reasons why I keep suggesting to wait for the NATO report as well, for corroborations and/or contradictions.

=============================



fatman17 said:


> ......................................
> 
> *Two military officials said* that up to 25 Pakistani troops had been killed and 14 wounded in the *attack on the Salala check post, about 2.5 km (1.5 miles) from the Afghan border.
> *
> ...................................



From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of the other thread.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As I asked you elsewhere - did the DG ISPR make the 2.5Km claim and retract it, or was that promoted by the media?



.... and as i said elsewhere, that is one of the many reasons why I keep suggesting to wait for the NATO report as well, for corroborations and/or contradictions.


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## tony singh

safriz said:


> They were not expecting this type of reaction,they have got away with similar killings in the past,they were expecting to get away this time also,but after long time Pakistani nation finally woke up..


 


After the OBL raid did NATO/US not know what the reaction would be? and this attack left 28 people dead that's a huge number its not like it was 1 or 2 people but freaking 28! that's a act of war.


That's why i don't see what the motive was in Nato doing this attack on purpose what did they aim to achieve? apart from leaving their agenda in tatters.

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## rai_kamal

"Bhai sahab english"plz


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## alimukhtar

rai_kamal said:


> "Bhai sahab english"plz



hahaha khud tu yar app roman main likh rai ho......


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## mjnaushad

VCheng said:


> .... and as i said elsewhere, that is one of the many reasons why I keep suggesting to wait for the NATO report as well, for corroborations and/or contradictions.



Murderer investigating the murder he committed..... And then rely on that investigation...


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## Safriz

mjnaushad said:


> To pressurize pakistan to say yes to the so called well being of the region policies US will put in bonn conference.... Trying to convey the message that they have other options..... Because in turkey Pakistan rejected somethings US wanted Pakistan to do. Thats why they now trying all they can to drag us in bonn..... They dont talk much on this killings but trying all to make pakistan invite this bonn conference.....German chancelor said to PM if you cant come send FM, If FM cant come send your envoy in Germany....



Yes this is a bit strange...Why are they so hell bent on inviting Pakistan to Bonn conference? and as you suggest the timings of this attack coincide with the cconference.

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## tony singh

mjnaushad said:


> To pressurize pakistan to say yes to the so called well being of the region policies US will put in bonn conference.... Trying to convey the message that they have other options..... Because in turkey Pakistan rejected somethings US wanted Pakistan to do. Thats why they now trying all they can to drag us in bonn..... They dont talk much on this killings but trying all to make pakistan invite this bonn conference.....German chancelor said to PM if you cant come send FM, If FM cant come send your envoy in Germany....





So your saying the motive for this attack was to put pressure on Pakistan? if that's the case it has failed.


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## Safriz

tony singh said:


> After the OBL raid did NATO/US not know what the reaction would be? and this attack left 28 people dead that's a huge number its not like it was 1 or 2 people but freaking 28! that's a act of war.
> 
> 
> That's why i don't see what the motive was in Nato doing this attack on purpose what did they aim to achieve? apart from leaving their agenda in tatters.



In all honesty..i don't care why this happened..All i know is that 28 Pakistani soldiers were killed by foreign troops at night inside Pakistani territory and that cannot be justified with any reason..so it wont matter what reason they or anybody else comes up with.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

Take anyairbase or other asset given to these khanazeer back

TARIQ

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> ......................................
> 
> *Two military officials said* that up to 25 Pakistani troops had been killed and 14 wounded in the *attack on the Salala check post, about 2.5 km (1.5 miles) from the Afghan border.
> *
> ...................................



From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of this very thread.


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## Dr. NooB NinjA

Times Of India reporting that a video of the incident has been released by the Pakistani establishment..!!  ... Any links??!! I seriously doubt the reporting of TOI though..!!

Pakistan releases video of Nato air strikes, says apology not enough - The Times of India


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## mjnaushad

Video of *After the incident* has been released....... by ISPR


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> That is one of the many reasons why I keep suggesting to wait for the NATO report as well, for corroborations and/or contradictions.



The official Pakistani position has been consistent - it does not require the NATO report for corroboration.

The only issue the NATO reports can clarify is in offering their version of WHY this happened.

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> ...............
> 
> the posts were 200-300meters from the border.....................



You are now contradicting what you posted earlier:



fatman17 said:


> ......................................
> 
> *Two military officials said* that up to 25 Pakistani troops had been killed and 14 wounded in the *attack on the Salala check post, about 2.5 km (1.5 miles) from the Afghan border.
> *
> ...................................



Let us wait for the final NATO report too.


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## bdslph

blain2 said:


> Is this imperial/colonial hubris or what? Essentially translates into "So who cares if some 20 or so darkies are dead. They will get over it." Pretty typical!
> 
> One can just imagine if 24 American or British had perished in a similar so called "friendly fire" incident, how the Western governments and media would have reacted and what they would have expected from Pakistan.
> 
> It puzzles me that if the West celebrates the deaths of each of their fallen so meticulously, how come this unnamed rascal is missing the point that our 24 were not some unnamed souls. Their deaths have angered Pakistanis immensely and this oversimplification of their deaths won't pacify Pakistanis that easily. The above comments have not a shred of bloody remorse!
> 
> KIAs:
> 
> Sepoy Tahir Mehmood
> Sepoy Najibullah
> Sepoy Kiramat Ali
> Sepoy Nasir Mehmood
> Sepoy Tariq Mehmood
> Sepoy Naeem
> Sepoy Ibrahim
> Sepoy Ahmed Khurshid
> Sepoy Asghar Abbas
> Sepoy Hafiz Manzoor
> Sepoy Abdul Razzaq
> Sepoy Ghulam Abbas
> Sepoy Rizwan
> Sepoy Imran Yusuf
> Lance Naik Tariq Mehmood
> Lance Naik Raza Mohammad
> Havaldar Mushtaq
> Havaldar Aslam
> Havaldar Mumtaz
> Subedar Mannan
> Captain Usman
> Major Mujahid Ali Mirani



thanks for the name the Martyrs blood will not go in vain NATO and USA has to pay 

Peace upon the Martyrs , just cannot imagine what the Martyrs family going through

in this difficult time everyone should support and look at the martyrs family

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## Safriz

It is a blog post,not a news report

---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

Ok..its a news report from a less known online Urdu news paper 
Ø§Ø*ÙØ§Ù - Ø§Ø±Ø¯Ù Ú©Ø§ Ù¾ÛÙØ§ Ø¢Ù ÙØ§Ø¦Ù Ø§Ø®Ø¨Ø§Ø± - Ø³Ø±ÙØ±Ù

â«Ø§Ø­ÙØ§Ù | Facebookâ¬

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> That is one of the many reasons why I keep suggesting to wait for the NATO report as well, for corroborations and/or contradictions.
> 
> =============================
> 
> 
> 
> From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of the other thread.




what other details do you think are relevant?


AND whose side will you believe, because NATO will invariably contradict pakistan?

therefore it sounds like you are waiting for NATO's response to jump on their bandwagon.

NATO will be in possession of details, probably even recordings, i doubt they will be released.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The official Pakistani position has been consistent - it does not require the NATO report for corroboration.
> 
> The only issue the NATO reports can clarify is in offering their version of WHY this happened.



There will be backtracking from the Pakistani side, once all the facts are known.

WHY it happened is one of the many things that need to be clarified, I agree, along with the HOW, and 12-23-11 is not that far away.


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## mjnaushad

VCheng said:


> You are now contradicting what you posted earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> Let us wait for the final NATO report too.



VCheng.... 

2.5 KM claim is from No Names officials.....

300 - 400 M claim is official claim.....

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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> what other details do you think are relevant?
> 
> 
> AND whose side will you believe, because NATO will invariably contradict pakistan?
> 
> therefore it sounds like you are waiting for NATO's response to jump on their bandwagon.
> 
> NATO will be in possession of details, probably even recordings, i doubt they will be released.



Not at all.

I will wait for the report and compare both sides to check for corroborations and contradictions, and go from there. But not point in speculating before then.

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## Safriz

all news papers claiming that ISPR released Nato Attack footage..can somebody post it here as i cant find the video.


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## iPhone

> By 1 a.m. all channels of communications with the other side were activated and the helicopters were pulled back. But as Pakistani troops moved from one post to the other to assess the damage and aid the injured, the helicopters reappeared and pinned them down. Some 26 artillery airbursts were fired by the Pakistani side and the engagement lasted until 0215.



this detail here is really worrisome. you can argue that first attack was a mistake, they didn't realize who they were dealing with, it was a hot pursuit and so on but for the helis to come back after an hour and start there attack again, there is no justification for that. That detail makes the killing an execution.


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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> There will be backtracking from the Pakistani side, once all the facts are known.
> 
> WHY it happened is one of the many things that need to be clarified, I agree, along with the HOW, and 12-23-11 is not that far away.



there will only be back tracking IF pakistan are wrong.

everything you are saying implies NATO are, or will be correct.

bizarre.

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## Safriz

all news papers claiming that ISPR released Nato Attack footage..can somebody post it here as i cant find the video.


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## mjnaushad

This is the pic the news is about....


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## karan.1970

If I count the number of posts that talked of 2.5 km distance as a clinching factor of why this was not a mistake but unprovoked assault, I am sure those will form a large part of the marathon thread on this.. More such gaps will emerge between now and 23rd dec in my view..

Also I don't understand how were mortars used against helis...

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## Greater China

*China: U.S. And NATO Have Trampled On International Law*

Global Research / dailytimes.com.pk, November 30, 2011

BEIJING: China&#8217;s top state newspaper on Tuesday accused the United States of flouting international law and fanning terrorism after a NATO attack killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, and it warned that the Islamabad&#8217;s grip on security could be dangerously weakened.

The condemnation in the People&#8217;s Daily, the main newspaper of China&#8217;s ruling Communist Party, kept up Beijing&#8217;s angry words in support of its partner, Pakistan, as Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani has said that &#8220;business as usual&#8221; with the United States has been over after the attack on Saturday.

NATO called the killings a &#8220;tragic, unintended incident&#8221;, and the US officials said NATO and American investigations would determine what happened in the attack in northwest Pakistan.

But the People&#8217;s Daily said the attack already laid bare deeper problems in the US approach to militant threats.

&#8220;Above all, we must be clear that the United States and NATO have trampled on international laws and rules,&#8221; said a commentary in the newspaper.

&#8220;The United States and NATO have violated international law and international norms,&#8221; the paper said in an editorial condemning the attacks.

&#8220;This shows...that at crucial moments, the United States will not show the slightest hesitation to violate the sovereignty of another nation to ensure its &#8216;absolute security&#8217;.&#8221;

&#8220;The risk in fighting terror this way is that it will ignite latent sympathy and support for terrorism, as well as hurting many innocent people and damaging international law,&#8221; said a commentary in the Chinese-language newspaper.

&#8220;The soil nurturing terrorism will become even more fertile, and the space for terrorism to spread even broader,&#8221; it said.

The commentary came after the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei voiced shock over the assault, and the Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi offered Beijing&#8217;s firm support to his Pakistani counterpart, Hina Rabbani Khar.

The close ties between China and Pakistan reflect...a desire to hedge against US influence across the region.

The People&#8217;s Daily commentary said the killings of the soldiers could inflict lasting damage.

&#8220;Islamabad&#8217;s grip on domestic security will also be weakened,&#8221; it said. &#8220;This will not only work against the war on terror, it could also leave the risk of long-term turmoil.&#8221;

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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of this very thread.



This is called knitpicking .
The most important and obvious part is that 28 Pakistani soldiers were killed INSIDE Pakistani territory by intruding foreign troops..Should it mater if they were 2 meters or 2 kilometers inside?


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## Jango

The pakistani government has said that Shamsi airbase will be emptied by Dec 11.


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## rai_kamal

alimukhtar said:


> hahaha khud tu yar app roman main likh rai ho......


""Chal atleast tu to samaj gaya na""..


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## Emmie

safriz said:


> all news papers claiming that ISPR released Nato Attack footage..can somebody post it here as i cant find the video.

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Not at all.
> 
> I will wait for the report and compare both sides to check for corroborations and contradictions, and go from there. But not point in speculating before then.



afghan officials have said that pakistan fired first, pakistan is contradicting this.

can you state why you believe? and the reasons why?

---------- Post added at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 PM ----------




karan.1970 said:


> If I count the number of posts that talked of 2.5 km distance as a clinching factor of why this was not a mistake but unprovoked assault, I am sure those will form a large part of the marathon thread on this.. More such gaps will emerge between now and 23rd dec in my view..
> 
> Also I don't understand how were mortars used against helis...



plus the known co ordinates/position, plus the ignored communications, plus the uniformed personnel, plus the 2 hour kill mission.

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## mjnaushad

karan.1970 said:


> If I count the number of posts that talked of 2.5 km distance as a clinching factor of why this was not a mistake but unprovoked assault, I am sure those will form a large part of the marathon thread on this.. More such gaps will emerge between now and 23rd dec in my view..
> 
> Also I don't understand how were mortars used against helis...



I think After getting fire you fire on the possible incursion points to keep it suppressed......


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## Jango

safriz said:


> all news papers claiming that ISPR released Nato Attack footage..can somebody post it here as i cant find the video.



I saw it on TV. Try to catch it on the 9 o clock news bulletin.

The post is completely destroyed, on a hilltop, standing out from the rest. A very good vantage point. Smoke is still coming out, suggesting that along with bullets, rockets might also had been used.

All in all, the images show that the post was relentlessly fired upon.


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## mjnaushad

Its After the attack footage not of the attack footage.


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## patna_ke_presley

rai_kamal said:


> "Bhai sahab english"plz



I translated it using Google Translate, though translation is not 100% correct and some sentences are horrible but it is still useful:-

The picture received some officers of Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force Air Base on board a U.S. drone aircraft allegedly closer inspection they are standing when the U.S. military can be seen standing in behind them. But about the alleged raid by military bosses sytsdyq or has been denied. altbh about it is it must be said that the Pakistan Air Base to the board in any case refused to grant permission is strictlyAnd he took the UAE but also by pressure from the Pakistani military leadership not only rejected it but strictly warned that even if the Army Air Base was empty action will force itself, the board of the Air Base rejected all roads leading to the bar and prpabndy been supplying all kinds. Some sources also claim that the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force base into a team and the drone aircraft and other equipment kamaaynh also, due to their aggressive American cotton has decided to base empty. there is also the fact behind the U.S. attack on Pakistan Taliban in North Waziristan and other groups had refused to act against. The mtabqdunun volatility relations in the past but also get to see the Haqqani Network in North and South Waziristan, Hafiz Gul Bahadur and Maulvi Nazeer, the Pakistani Taliban groups against the U.S. military's request to act on behalf of issues were more complex. The pro-Taliban groups in Pakistan and Pakistan is considered to have earned his peace deal with Taliban groups. North and South Waziristan, the Pakistani army's offensive against the Taliban to Afghanistan because of the sudden Mohmand province of Kunar, Bajaur and Malakand Pakistani security forces began the invasion. 
Is there a way to target Americans inside. But after the attacks in Kunar from Pakistan Army to focus more attention on the Mohmand Agency and also added strength. Mohmand Agency intensified its military operations in the current year.Mohmand Agency has seven thslyn. The flag, according to a Taliban commander Abdul Wali village in the surrounding area was occupied by the army over the Kunar province of Afghanistan that were left. the military headquarters of the Mohmand Agency in glnyy Peshawar Corps Commander Brig Aftab Ahmed Khan in the presence of a briefing in the country from Afghanistan province of Safi tehsil in Mohmand Agency, a division of jaggery and twenty percent rise against the Taliban takeover in Pakistan's territory. briefing U.S. military commanders say it clearly that they are telling people that ISAF Swat, Malakand and Mohmand to flee Pakistan anti-Taliban and Pakistan in Kunar attack but the U.S. forces against militants. Their words with great difficulty that he has set up check posts and logistic support as often as difficult for him to use helicopters. This time it was clear that the U.S. wantsapply, the lyyamrykh the Taliban in Afghanistan itself and terminate mqa blh. U.S. Army was not ready to take on the Taliban from Pakistan and they wanted to work but a b Pakistan to further develop this work was And that tension was growing and post-attack led to the conclusion slalh and Pakistan ssmy Air Base and the U.S. supply line is made. Sources said that Americans would sit silent and must respond , so the Army is very mistaken.


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## Emmie

mjnaushad said:


> Its After the attack footage not of the attack footage.



Thats right only debris can be seen in video.. Important to note is the height of peak and no population around the post..


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## Safriz

Approximate translation..

_"It has been reported that a team of PAF and Army personnel has made a surprise visit to shamsi airbase and has inspected the drones and equipment there.
The only evidence of the news we could get hold of was this picture in which PAF and Army personnel are shown standing near a USA drone and we can see an American soldier in the background.
ISPR has not yet commented on this news and there is no confirmation or denial of this news from ISPR."_


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## VCheng

safriz said:


> ................Should it mater if they were 2 meters or 2 kilometers inside?



2(00) meters can be an error, 2 km is NOT; hence it is important to carefully analyze all facts before spouting off, wouldn't you agree?


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## Pak123

*Germany urges Pakistan to attend Afghan talks*

ISLAMABAD: German Chancellor Angela Merkel made a telephone call to Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and urged him to attend the upcoming Bonn Conference, Geo News reported.

According to statement released by the prime minister house, Gilani told the German Chancellor that under the present circumstances Pakistan could not attend the conference.

*Merkel requested Gilani that if he could not attend the conference then Pakistan should at least send Foreign Minister Khar or another representative.*

*During a German news conference, foreign ministry spokesman Andreas Peschke Pakistan itself has a big interest in the Afghan conference being a success. *


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## Jango

Shamsi airbase to be vacated by 11 Dec says Gilani.

A very very very stupid reporter asked a retired Lt Gen that what were the 155 mm guns doing!

The Let Gen said 'Bibi, 155 mm wali guns ground troops kay khilaf istamal hoti hain, helicopter kay khilaf nhn, agr dushman trench main ho to istamal hoti hain' .

What insanity!!!

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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> there will only be back tracking IF pakistan are wrong.
> 
> everything you are saying implies NATO are, or will be correct.
> 
> bizarre.



I am not implying anything. ALL I am saying is to WAIT for that report as well.

Do you see the difference already? Pakistan loosely let out incorrect information that will now undermine its position, while NATO said to wait for the final report from the beginning. (Same thing happened with BB's assassination, same thing with the RD affair, and now this.)

We should learn to respond more intelligently.


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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> You are now contradicting what you posted earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> Let us wait for the final NATO report too.



what's taking them that long? waiting for the public emotions to calm down? waiting on Pak's report so they can prepare thers occordingly with a believable narrative? they know what they did, they have the report ready, it was a hanful of interviews they had to conduct and a little forensics. now they'd be amending and editing it with proper public and international mood swings.

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## Jango

karan.1970 said:


> If I count the number of posts that talked of 2.5 km distance as a clinching factor of why this was not a mistake but unprovoked assault, I am sure those will form a large part of the marathon thread on this.. More such gaps will emerge between now and 23rd dec in my view..
> 
> Also I don't understand how were mortars used against helis...



Who said that mortars were used to attack the helis?


A very very very stupid reporter asked a retired Lt Gen that what were the 155 mm guns doing!

The Let Gen said 'Bibi, 155 mm wali guns ground troops kay khilaf istamal hoti hain, helicopter kay khilaf nhn, agr dushman trench main ho to istamal hoti hain' .

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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> 2(00) meters can be an error, 2 km is NOT; hence it is important to carefully analyze all facts before spouting off, wouldn't you agree?



Your definition of Error is flawed.
A stray fire while chasing Terrorists can kill one two or three soldiers on foot petrol..But how can somebody kill 28 Uniformed soldiers by error?
Rockets were fired continuously at them,not just once or twice..How can that be error?
Dont you think Pakistani soldiers were running around to save their lives and were chased and then killed? It cant be that 28 soldiers remained huddles together and were killed by one or two stray rockets..They were fired upon repeatedly and chased to kill,and that cannot be error..
We dont need proof,its against common sense....(and common sense is less common)

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## VCheng

iPhone said:


> what's taking them that long? ...............



Facts need to be established, verified and double-checked. Simple. That is exactly how a thorough investigation should be done.


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## patna_ke_presley

Chechans, Uighurs all were getting training Afghanistan by Taliban and Al-Qaida. It is unlikely China and US will block NATO presence in Afghanistan because at this point their mutual interests are overlapping. Russian criticized US but it is unlikely they will close NDN as neither they want collapse of Afghanistan and many central Asian countries are getting huge border tariff from Americans. They must be happy to get opportunity to earn more from Transit route.


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## Dr. NooB NinjA

mjnaushad said:


> Video of *After the incident* has been released....... by ISPR



Link pls..


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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> Facts need to be established, verified and double-checked. Simple. That is exactly how a thorough investigation should be done.



bullshit, it still doesn't take a month.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> There will be backtracking from the Pakistani side, once all the facts are known.


Why will there be backtracking?

Pakistan has established the facts from its end.


> WHY it happened is one of the many things that need to be clarified, I agree, along with the HOW, and 12-23-11 is not that far away.


The 'WHY' is the only part left unanswered - the 'HOW' has been explained in detail in the official Pakistani account.

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> I am not implying anything. ALL I am saying is to WAIT for that report as well.
> 
> Do you see the difference already? Pakistan loosely let out incorrect information that will now undermine its position, while NATO said to wait for the final report from the beginning. (Same thing happened with BB's assassination, same thing with the RD affair, and now this.)
> 
> We should learn to respond more intelligently.




you HAVE implied that pakistan is implicitly incorrect, else why the need to backtrack? see below.



> There will be backtracking from the Pakistani side, once all the facts are known.




nothing said by the DGMO has contradicted what other army officials have said to my knowledge, again this is a rather unintelligent allegation, obviously the army do not control media reports.

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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> So NOT 2.5 km inside, as was initially claimed?
> 
> More details will show the story to be not as simple as initially thought.



This is knitpicking.....
and disrespectful towards Pakistani causalities...
The ground reality is that 28 Pakistani soldiers were killed inside Pakistani territory and the details mentioned here cannot be a mistake or error by any means...
28 soldiers were killed by an intruding foreign army INSIDE Pakistani territory..Doesn't matter 2 meters in or 2 kilometers inside territory

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## Jango

safriz said:


> Your definition of Error is flawed.
> A stray fire while chasing Terrorists can kill one two or three soldiers on foot petrol..But how can somebody kill 28 Uniformed soldiers by error?
> Rockets were fired continuously at them,not just once or twice..How can that be error?
> Dont you think Pakistani soldiers were running around to save their lives and were chased and then killed? It cant be that 28 soldiers remained huddles together and were killed by one or two stray rockets..They were fired upon repeatedly and chased to kill,and that cannot be error..
> We dont need proof,its against common sense....(and common sense is less common)



Just see the video. Check it at 1:14, a large is area is smoking, possibly giving the suspicion that the soldiers might have tried to run to some other place, and they were fired upon then.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> If I count the number of posts that talked of 2.5 km distance as a clinching factor of why this was not a mistake but unprovoked assault, I am sure those will form a large part of the marathon thread on this.. More such gaps will emerge between now and 23rd dec in my view..


Posts based on media reports - I believe the official PA account has remained consistent.

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## Jango

Dr. NooB NinjA said:


> Link pls..









---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why will there be backtracking?
> 
> Pakistan has established the facts from its end.
> 
> The 'WHY' is the only part left unanswered - the 'HOW' has been explained in detail in the official Pakistani account.



The Pakistani account is of no relevance to VCheng!

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## DANGER-ZONE

if it really lasted for TWO HOURS, then defiantly question raises towards PA-Aviation & PAF.
but again i remembered Osama raid and a few more attacks by NATO forces on PA posts and not to mention legendary Drones. 
(Cool down Danger-zone its usual)


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## vikrams




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## VCheng

safriz said:


> Your definition of Error is flawed.
> A stray fire while chasing Terrorists can kill one two or three soldiers on foot petrol..But how can somebody kill 28 Uniformed soldiers by error?
> Rockets were fired continuously at them,not just once or twice..How can that be error?
> Dont you think Pakistani soldiers were running around to save their lives and were chased and then killed? It cant be that 28 soldiers remained huddles together and were killed by one or two stray rockets..They were fired upon repeatedly and chased to kill,and that cannot be error..
> We dont need proof,its against common sense....(and common sense is less common)



Let's wait for the final report.

I said CAN be an error, not whether it is, or was.

A location identified as a source of unfriendly fire will be targeted in such a way that a radius of several hundred feet around it is instantly annihilated. It doesn't matter if 2 or 20 or 200 targets fire back, sit, sleep or run. They will be killed. SOP.


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## iPhone

ppl nitpicking on 2.5 km, there was also an unveriffied anonymous account claiming the attack lasted for 5 plus hours. But the official DGMO account has cleared it to be at a little over 2 hours. ISPR isn't accountable for disinformation circulating through media.

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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> if it really lasted for TWO HOURS, then defiantly question raises towards PA-Aviation & PAF.
> but again i remembered Osama raid and a few more attacks by NATO forces on PA posts and not to mention legendary Drones.
> (Cool down Danger-zone its usual)



OBL was a different case, Drones are a different case, this is a different case, stop thinking that t=all are the same, every incident has different equipment, different routes and all.

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## VCheng

safriz said:


> This is knitpicking.....
> and disrespectful towards Pakistani causalities...
> The ground reality is that 28 Pakistani soldiers were killed inside Pakistani territory and the details mentioned here cannot be a mistake or error by any means...
> 28 soldiers were killed by an intruding foreign army INSIDE Pakistani territory..Doesn't matter 2 meters in or 2 kilometers inside territory



There is no disrespect here.

Establishing the correct facts is the best way to honor the soldiers, and to prevent further losses.


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## r3alist

truth is, pak army are not going to take a PUNGA with the US.

all you arm chair generals who wanted pak to shoot nato choppers down are delusional, everything has a cost/benefit calculation, and its a pretty easy one 

there is no shame in tactical retreat.

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## iPhone

nato's report will most likely counter Pakistani claim of second attack by their helis by either outright denying it or justify it by saying they continued to recieve fire frm Pak side and came back to engage it.


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## unicorn

self delete...


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## xTra

VCheng said:


> Let's wait for the final report.
> 
> I said CAN be an error, not whether it is, or was.
> 
> A location identified as a source of unfriendly fire will be targeted in such a way that a radius of several hundred feet around it is instantly annihilated. It doesn't matter if 2 or 20 or 200 targets fire back, sit, sleep or run. They will be killed. SOP.



Now this is discussion going nowhere, let us wait for official investigation report by NATO, hope something solid may come.

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## unicorn

*Unprovoked: DGMO gives details of aerial assault*


ISLAMABAD: The Nato attack on two military check posts in the Mohmand Agency early Saturday morning was an &#8220;unprovoked act of blatant aggression,&#8221; said the Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) Major General Ishfaq Nadeem on Tuesday, adding that all options remained open to the government and the military. &#8220;The final decision rests with the prime minister. We are considering a range of options,&#8221; he told journalists at a briefing, adding that the military will have its input into the decisions taken. A review of the incident is under way at the GHQ, he said.

The DGMO said he was not authorised to comment on what specific counter measures were being considered to cope with such situations in the future and added these would be finalised after the completion of the continuing investigation into the incident.
He went into comprehensive detail about the sequence of events known so far, explaining that a check post code-named Volcano first came under attack at around 15 to 30 minutes after midnight. A nearby check post, code-named Boulder, responded with 12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons and mortars after the Volcano check post came under attack from gunship helicopters.

Subsequently, check post Boulder also came under attack and all communication was lost with both check posts. But before communication was lost, company commander Major Mujahid headed for Volcano and Boulder to investigate and was killed as the helicopters re-engaged. Amongst the 24 men killed that night was also Captain Usman who leaves behind a widow and a 3-month-old baby daughter.

The DGMO said the two posts were located at a place from where there has been no cross-border infiltration, though militant attacks from the other side had been continuing. Settled villages were two-three kilometres away from the posts and the posts themselves were about 300-400 metres inside Pakistan borders.

The two check posts, he maintained, could not be mistaken for militant sanctuaries because the other side had been provided all available information about the number of Pakistani posts and their locations. The men at the posts were uniformed and the posts were well-defined. The DGMO further said the Pakistan Army believed that Nato was monitoring the transmissions that night and knew they had hit Volcano checkpost.

The posts were being manned by the experienced and battle-hardened 7-AK battalion which was equipped with both line and wireless communications equipment, but armed for dealing only with militant activity but not repelling an aerial assault. &#8220;The troops are geared for fighting terrorists and not border security,&#8221; he said.

The Pakistan Army maintains an 8,200 man presence in Mohmand Agency following military operations to clear the region of militants, with 29 border checkposts in along the border while there are only 14 on the Afghan side, manned predominantly by Afghan police. A total of 820 check posts are maintained in the tribal belt along the border.

By 1 a.m. all channels of communications with the other side were activated and the helicopters were pulled back. But as Pakistani troops moved from one post to the other to assess the damage and aid the injured, the helicopters reappeared and pinned them down. Some 26 artillery airbursts were fired by the Pakistani side and the engagement lasted until 0215.

Answering a question, he said the civil authorities including the president, the prime minister and the foreign and defence ministers were informed in the &#8220;morning&#8221; about the incident which began around midnight and lasted for two hours.

The reason for the implied delay in informing the civil authorities, he said, was because a complete picture had not emerged until daybreak.
It was clear from General Nadeem&#8217;s briefing that there was misleading information being provided to the Pakistan military from the start. Just before the attack, a Pakistani officer at the regional tactical center was informed by an American sergeant that their special forces had received indirect fire from Gora Pai, located some 15 kilometres away from Volcano post. And after 7 minutes, a woman officer informed him that the fire had, in fact, come from Volcano, which had been hit in retaliation.

The DGMO was dismissive of previous joint inquiries conducted into three earlier incidents. &#8220;There have been joint inquiries and they all came to naught. They give a version not based on facts as we know them,&#8221; he said, adding that Pakistan did not initiate firing at any point that night.

The DGMO listed the standard operating procedures that exists in the border coordination mechanism that entails sharing information on impending operations in advance, particularly if these operations come within two kilometers of the border; to immediately communicate if one side comes under fire with the responsibility to take action from the country from where the attack originated; and cessation of fire when communication established. &#8220;All SOPs were violated that night,&#8221; said General Nadeem.

He further elaborated that while the helicopters intruded into Pakistani airspace on an intermittent basis, supporting jets did not enter Pakistani airspace.

The central question remains why the Pakistan Air Force did not respond immediately to the attack. General Nadeem said there was &#8220;a haze&#8221; at the time, adding Pakistan Air Force interceptors did not scramble when the two helicopters from the other side violated the border, because initially it seemed the violation was only marginal.

Furthermore, according to him, the two helicopters had pulled back midway through giving the impression the attack had ended, but returned for another attack.

AVM (retd) Shahzad Chaudhry told Express Tribune that &#8220;the air force could have scrambled but you have to decide if you want a shooting war with America. With only 200-300 meters between the border, our jets would have entered Afghanistan. It is the consequences you have to live with.&#8221;

â&#8364;&#732;Unprovokedâ&#8364;&#8482;: DGMO gives details of aerial assault &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## maverick1977

i am afraid there will be escalations after this incident. PA will issue MANPADS this time. the only logic i see PA not issuing MANPADs was the logic that talibans dont have any helis or airforce and to avoid accidental hitting of helis in afghan side. The equation has changed and i forsee a bigger problem in the region. Stay tuned


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> OBL was a different case, Drones are a different case, this is a different case, stop thinking that t=all are the same, every incident has different equipment, different routes and all.



something is common among them YOUR SOVEREIGNTY, is it a different case. 
so what if someone rob your house, burn it down, kill a few etc .... are all these cases different for you to be treated differently, when you have guards for protection.


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## iPhone

r3alist said:


> truth is, pak army are not going to take a PUNGA with the US.
> 
> all you arm chair generals who wanted pak to shoot nato choppers down are delusional, everything has a cost/benefit calculation, and its a pretty easy one
> 
> there is no shame in tactical retreat.



nope, Pakistan should've taken care of the NATO helis during the attack. Feelings of reveng among soldiers is not a good thing to be have. These guys are bound by brotherhood and take care of each other. Pakistani inaction has left them hurt and itching for a payback. Not following through with proper diplomatic action will hurt even further.

MAN Portable SAMs should be made mandatory in these outer posts. So they can take care of this nuisence on their own. Remeber anything goes when you are attacked.

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## OrionHunter

It's intriguing that in spite of 12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons and mortars fired by the AK Battalion as well as artillery air bursts in the area where the choppers were flying, there was not a single NATO casualty? I understand that the op took place at night. But mortars and artillery can fire flares too, which could have been used to locate and light up the choppers after which the anti aircraft guns could have taken them on. 

Just my two bits as I have no clue what the SOPs are and whether this was done or not. (Requires a lot of coordination though).

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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> Let's wait for the final report.
> 
> I said CAN be an error, not whether it is, or was.
> 
> A location identified as a source of unfriendly fire will be targeted in such a way that a radius of several hundred feet around it is instantly annihilated. It doesn't matter if 2 or 20 or 200 targets fire back, sit, sleep or run. They will be killed. SOP.



so the claims by Pakistani Officials that it was a well marked and well mapped check post which was there for quite some time holds no credibility?
and wouldn't NATO know of such a large and obvious stone structure perched on top of mountain?
Wouldn't NATO expect to receive fire from a Border security check post when they intrude Pakistani territory unannounced and unauthorized?
Even if Pakistani troops fired at them , they only exercised their right of defending their borders,and that if happened is well justified....
If NATO went off the hook on this and like a raging bull killed every living thing in vicinity,it cannot be justified...

I am at loss here,how can you sensibly call this an error? What would be the scenario of this error in your opinion?

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## VCheng

unicorn said:


> ....................... *General Nadeem said there was &#8220;a haze&#8221; at the time, adding *...............



That really says it all, to the discerning mind. 

The Pakistani leadership is not only in "a haze", but dazed, stumbling and sleep-walking to the nearest precipice, sadly, as this incident only hints at.


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## regular

fatman17 said:


> you want us to start a WAR with the US? if they were indian assets, you would have seen a different reaction!


Yes! we can't start war with US cuz they pay our wages and budget.......

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------




maverick1977 said:


> i am afraid there will be escalations after this incident. PA will issue MANPADS this time. the only logic i see PA not issuing MANPADs was the logic that talibans dont have any helis or airforce and to avoid accidental hitting of helis in afghan side. The equation has changed and i forsee a bigger problem in the region. Stay tuned


We already know cuz US is gonna enforce war on us by hook or by crook even we try not to........


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## Safriz

xTra said:


> Now this is discussion going nowhere, let us wait for official investigation report by NATO, hope something solid may come.



For us what Pakistani officials say is enough and it will be very hard to believe what NATO says,as they lost all credibility.

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> That really says it all, to the discerning mind.



and the apache and other helicopters have all sorts of night vision and Gizmos to see in the dark..see i the haze?


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## Patriot

I have no doubt that Pakistan will pay them back in the same coin but in due time of course.

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## xTra

safriz said:


> For us what Pakistani officials say is enough and it will be very hard to believe what NATO says,as they lost all credibility.



But my dear friend, you can't go by report of only one party and has to consider the report of other party as both parties are the part of conflict.


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## Irfan Baloch

mjnaushad said:


> VCheng....
> 
> 2.5 KM claim is from No Names officials.....
> 
> 300 - 400 M claim is official claim.....



I hope its not a typo.
300 to 400 m actually makes the posts on the border. 
granted if they are that close then Helis can be confused if they have crossed the border or not
but what they cant be confused with is

1. repeated calls from Pakistanis that they were attacking Pakistani check posts.
2. they had the coordinates of the Pakistani check posts and they were pretty much established with flags and communication equipment.

also how do you expect an escaping Taliban to run that fast with all the weapon load to cross the border and get on the top of the mountains and establish posts and fire on ISAF?

if anyone has travelled on the mountains would know that even a single KM can take you an excess of an hour.

the video clip of the destroyed clips themselves show a considerable height in excess of few hundred meters so those Taliban either didnt exist or were super human

unless the NATO finally decides to declare that the check posts were the indented targets and having their coordinates actually helped to engage both of them and thats why the distress calls and blue on blue communications from Pakistanis were ignored for the reasons only known to NATO at the moment.

I will try to verify the actual distance of the posts from the border because 300 to 400 meter is actually on the edge of the border. To ensure that its fire drops only within the Pakistani borders if there are incursions from Afghanistan, the Pakistani posts have to be much deeper inside Pakistan, otherwise NATO and Pakistan will end up fighting each other.

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## Patriot

VCheng said:


>


Please stop using smilies in this thread - It is disrespectful to 28 soldiers that died defending this country - I understand that you have no respect for Pakistani Soldiers but please spare us the bullshit and stop repeating the same crap again and again.No one is buying it.

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## r3alist

iPhone said:


> nope, Pakistan should've taken care of the NATO helis during the attack. Feelings of reveng among soldiers is not a good thing to be have. These guys are bound by brotherhood and take care of each other. Pakistani inaction has left them hurt and itching for a payback. Not following through with proper diplomatic action will hurt even further.
> 
> MAN Portable SAMs should be made mandatory in these outer posts. So they can take care of this nuisence on their own. Remeber anything goes when you are attacked.




again, cost/benefit.

us would have thrown the world media at pakistan if PA made an aggressive move and shot down a heli, now that could really hurt pakistan.


ofcourse any red blooded males natural instincts are to fight back, seek revenge, that too is my inclination, but thats not always sensible, what would be gained? 

you can only salvage the situation, i see pakistan are leveraging this a lot more than they have ever done, you can only hope this develops into a more favorable scenario, the us is politically and diplomatically on the back foot.

i have no doubt that the PA are making moves in other areas where they rule the roost

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## VCheng

safriz said:


> .............see i the haze?



The "haze" is not on the NATO side, it is inside the minds of the Pakistani leadership.

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------




Patriot said:


> Please stop using smilies in this thread - It is disrespectful to 28 soldiers that died defending this country - I understand that you have no respect for Pakistani Soldiers but please spare us the bullshit and stop repeating the same crap again and again.No one is buying it.



The real pity is that the bullshit coming from your own leadership that has placed the whole nation in jeopardy you do not see yet, and THEY keep repeating the same crap that you are still buying hook, line and sinker. That is not my problem, but yours to correct.

I DO respect the dead soldiers, but the truth is the truth.


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## blain2

nuclearpak said:


> Who said that mortars were used to attack the helis?
> 
> 
> A very very very stupid reporter asked a retired Lt Gen that what were the 155 mm guns doing!
> 
> The Let Gen said 'Bibi, 155 mm wali guns ground troops kay khilaf istamal hoti hain, helicopter kay khilaf nhn, agr dushman trench main ho to istamal hoti hain' .



Artillery was used by own side for air bursts against the helis which withdrew. 30 rounds were fired by the field guns.

As to the positions, these are "border" posts and as such would be fairly close to the actual border and not 2.5km inside. Maybe initially the reporting was incorrect, but the facts are that these are recognized and registered via grid positions known to all sides engaged. While I can understand that some map-reading challenged ANA trooper may not have understood, but the strikes were called in by a US SF operator whose approving chain of command was definitely aware where Pakistanis were posted.

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## Patriot

r3alist said:


> again, cost/benefit.
> 
> us would have thrown the world media at pakistan if PA made an aggressive move and shot down a heli, now that could really hurt pakistan.


They may even have said something like we were after Mullah Omar and Pakistan stopped our operation etc.

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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> The "haze" is not on the NATO side, it is inside the minds of the Pakistani leadership.



Your comment is out of context of this discussion.

You mentioned that a Pakistani official said that it was hazy at the time of attack...
and apparently you were saying that it as a reason why NATO may have attacked the Pakistani check post by mistake...
I said that All NATO helicopters and even soldiers have gadgets to see in the dark and thermal imaging is not effected by haze..At night they were definitely using night vision and thats not effected by haze and cannot be a reason of error..if at all this was an error.


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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> I hope its not a typo.
> 300 to 400 m actually makes the posts on the border.
> granted if they are that close then Helis can be confused if they have crossed the border or not
> but what they cant be confused with is
> 
> 1. repeated calls from Pakistanis that they were attacking Pakistani check posts.
> 2. they had the coordinates of the Pakistani check posts and they were pretty much established with flags and communication equipment.
> 
> also how do you expect an escaping Taliban to run that fast with all the weapon load to cross the border and get on the top of the mountains and establish posts and fire on ISAF?
> 
> if anyone has travelled on the mountains would know that even a single KM can take you an excess of an hour.
> 
> the video clip of the destroyed clips themselves show a considerable height in excess of few hundred meters so those Taliban either didn&#8217;t exist or were super human
> 
> unless the NATO finally decides to declare that the check posts were the indented targets and having their coordinates actually helped to engage both of them and that&#8217;s why the distress calls and blue on blue communications from Pakistanis were ignored for the reasons only known to NATO at the moment.
> 
> I will try to verify the actual distance of the posts from the border because 300 to 400 meter is actually on the edge of the border. To ensure that its fire &#8220;drops&#8221; only within the Pakistani borders if there are incursions from Afghanistan, the Pakistani posts have to be much deeper inside Pakistan, otherwise NATO and Pakistan will end up fighting each other.



That is why I keep saying to wait for the final report from NATO too, and *then analyze it logically and impartially.*


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## r3alist

Patriot said:


> They may even have said something like we were after Mullah Omar and Pakistan stopped our operation etc.



exactly, so combined with the us public opinion rage, previous OBL raid and the latest incident its the US PUBLIC that would be calling for war on pakistan, and a media war in the west pakistan has no chance!!!!

average joe in US is a factor for the fate of nations, what a cruel twist of fate!!!

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## VCheng

safriz said:


> .........................
> 
> *You mentioned that a Pakistani official said that it was hazy at the time of attack...*.................



It was not HAZY. The PA official was referring to "a haze" as the explanation for the lack of a PAF response, which means something TOTALLY different: the fog of war, confusion, panic, lack of knowing what was going on.

And thus, my comment is entirely relevant to the thread.


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## Safriz

The only sensible justification of an ERROR from NATO is this picture







BAANDARR KAY HAATH MEIN BANDOOQ

Give a gun to a monkey and he will shoot anything and anybody BY ERROR as he doesn't know how to use an gun and under what circumstances and upon whom..
If NATO doesn't know all the above then they too are chimps with guns.

IS THERE ANY NEED FOR APOLOGY?


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## blain2

r3alist said:


> again, cost/benefit.
> 
> us would have thrown the world media at pakistan if PA made an aggressive move and shot down a heli, now that could really hurt pakistan.
> 
> 
> ofcourse any red blooded males natural instincts are to fight back, seek revenge, that too is my inclination, but thats not always sensible, what would be gained?
> 
> you can only salvage the situation, i see pakistan are leveraging this a lot more than they have ever done, you can only hope this develops into a more favorable scenario, the us is politically and diplomatically on the back foot.
> 
> i have no doubt that the PA are making moves in other areas where they rule the roost



This is a slippery slope. We induct manpads, they will go to medium altitude for PGM strikes. This tactical tit-for-tat is not going to help either side. The ISAF know that this is only causing them to become more distracted and Pakistan has to be very clear in terms of its cost/benefit analysis whether it makes sense or not.

Killing of fellow soldiers definitely angers troops. However this is where the discipline comes into picture. You cannot have troops making policies. However you are correct that the response next time from the Pakistani side will be a bit more aggressive (of the sort of fire first, ask questions later) at the tactical level and the two sides will have to figure out if they want to keep going down this path or hold back.

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## unicorn

*Nato attack footage released*







The footage showed aerial views of the two destroyed outposts, Boulder and Volcano, and close-ups of the site of an attack that the army described as a &#8220;deliberate act of aggression&#8221; by NATO helicopters and a war plane.

White smoke could be seen spiraling from large swathes of blackened ground either side of the remote rocky mountaintop where both posts were situated.

Army spokesman Brigadier Syed Azmat Ali said the smoke was a result of the nearly two-hour incident in the early hours of Saturday. The footage was filmed on Sunday morning, he said.It was not clear why it had taken until Wednesday to release.

Scattered sandbags, tarpaulin sheets and corrugated iron sheets can be seen lying around one of the abandoned posts, and Pakistani soldiers wander through the wreckage, one taking photographs.

A single white flag flies from a branch stuck in the soil. In another shot a stone hut can be seen, metres from the remains of a rock wall, next to which magazines of ammunition have been abandoned.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Wednesday pledged an investigation &#8220;as swiftly and thoroughly as possible&#8221; into the &#8220;tragic incident&#8221; but stopped short of apologising for the deaths.


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## wmdisinfo

i think US can feel the pain little bit.we should wait until december 13 when NATO is out of fuel food water and toilet paper then they can see the fog of war as well.let the taliban kill them like sitting ducks in their bases.


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## StandForInsaf

VCheng said:


> I am *no *"Nadeem Paracha" on _ANY _of the "qualities" you mention.
> 
> My views are simply mine, logical and impartial.
> 
> ========================
> 
> To stay on topic,* the supply routes should resume within one month*.



They should be closed for ever no foreign wars or support for them.


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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> ............................
> Killing of fellow soldiers definitely angers troops. However this is where the discipline comes into picture. You cannot have troops making policies. .................



Great post. I am sure wiser counsel will prevail in this situation. For sure.


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## VCheng

StandForInsaf said:


> They should be closed for ever no foreign wars or support for them.



"Should be" does not mean they WILL be.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

blain2 said:


> Artillery was used by own side for air bursts against the helis which withdrew. 30 rounds were fired by the field guns.
> 
> As to the positions, these are "border" posts and as such would be fairly close to the actual border and not 2.5km inside. Maybe initially the reporting was incorrect, but the facts are that these are recognized and registered via grid positions known to all sides engaged. While I can understand that some map-reading challenged ANA trooper may not have understood, but the strikes were called in by a US SF operator whose approving chain of command was definitely aware where Pakistanis were posted.



*The helicopters appeared near the post around 15 to 20 minutes past midnight, opened fire, then left about 45 minutes later, Nadeem was quoted as saying. They reappeared at 0115 local time and attacked again for another hour, he said.

Nadeem said that, minutes before the first attack, a U.S. sergeant on duty at a communications centre in Afghanistan told a Pakistani major that NATO special forces were receiving indirect fire from a location 15 km (9 miles) from the posts.

The Pakistanis said they needed time to check and asked for coordinates. Nadeem said the unidentified sergeant called back to say "your ... post has been hit." Nadeem concluded that meant NATO knew the locations of the Pakistani posts before attacking, said The News.*

Pakistan army says NATO attack was blatant aggression | World | Reuters

The highlighted part would indicate that NATO knew they were attacking the Pakistani post, and yet continued the attack ...

---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------




blain2 said:


> This is a slippery slope. We induct manpads, they will go to medium altitude for PGM strikes. This tactical tit-for-tat is not going to help either side. The ISAF know that this is only causing them to become more distracted and Pakistan has to be very clear in terms of its cost/benefit analysis whether it makes sense or not.
> 
> Killing of fellow soldiers definitely angers troops. However this is where the discipline comes into picture. You cannot have troops making policies. However you are correct that the response next time from the Pakistani side will be a bit more aggressive (of the sort of fire first, ask questions later) at the tactical level and the two sides will have to figure out if they want to keep going down this path or hold back.


Same breaking news reports suggesting an artillery/fire exchange between NATO and Pakistani troops (Wednesday) - apparently communication and coordination between the two sides resulted in the incident being defused without any casualties on either side.

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> That is why I keep saying to wait for the final report from NATO too, and *then analyze it logically and impartially.*



is it logical to say pakistan will amend its version of events?


----------



## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ...................
> 
> The highlighted part would indicate that NATO knew they were attacking the Pakistani post, and yet continued the attack .....



If the post was seen or thought to be the source of unfriendly fire, then it would indicate a response.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Same breaking news reports suggesting an artillery/fire exchange between NATO and Pakistani troops (Wednesday) - *apparently communication and coordination between the two sides resulted in the incident being defused without any casualties on either side*.



Saner minds at work. That is good news.

---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------




r3alist said:


> is it logical to say pakistan will amend its version of events?



I don't know; all the facts are not known yet.


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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> That is why I keep saying to wait for the final report from NATO too, and *then analyze it logically and impartially.*



we hear you, and there is nothing wrong with that

truth wont "hurt" because the hurt has already been done

all 3 players that are supposed to be on the same side (US, Afghans and Pakistanis) are playing their own game for their own interest smy hope is that this game doest go that far that its difficult to distinguish between each other and taliban. (I.e. who is friend and who is enemy).

i guess the information will come in bits or piecemeal and the story will take a lot of turns, makes little difference to the grieving familes I can imagine some of them will be getting teased by pro-Taliban elements that their sons died at the hands of the Americans they were trying to fight for.

I hate to think what the Molana Abdul Aziz will be talking about in his sermons I can imagine he wont make any effort to hide his glee over this incident. has had already issued a blanket fatwa over all Pakistan armymen that they are apostates and kafirs and dont deserve an Islamic burial. thats a real life troll for you

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## blain2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *The helicopters appeared near the post around 15 to 20 minutes past midnight, opened fire, then left about 45 minutes later, Nadeem was quoted as saying. They reappeared at 0115 local time and attacked again for another hour, he said.
> 
> Nadeem said that, minutes before the first attack, a U.S. sergeant on duty at a communications centre in Afghanistan told a Pakistani major that NATO special forces were receiving indirect fire from a location 15 km (9 miles) from the posts.
> 
> The Pakistanis said they needed time to check and asked for coordinates. Nadeem said the unidentified sergeant called back to say "your ... post has been hit." Nadeem concluded that meant NATO knew the locations of the Pakistani posts before attacking, said The News.*
> 
> Pakistan army says NATO attack was blatant aggression | World | Reuters
> 
> The highlighted part would indicate that NATO knew they were attacking the Pakistani post, and yet continued the attack ...
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------
> 
> 
> Same breaking news reports suggesting an artillery/fire exchange between NATO and Pakistani troops (Wednesday) - apparently communication and coordination between the two sides resulted in the incident being defused without any casualties on either side.



AM,

I think its established beyond a shadow of doubt that they knew what they were shooting at. As to what instigated them to do so, I am not sure. I have already stated my thoughts on their motivations.

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## Awesome

fatman17 said:


> you want us to start a WAR with the US? if they were indian assets, you would have seen a different reaction!



That's going to be the downfall of the PA leadership. If the external forces don't end up routing them out, the internal ones will. You must defend from all threats. Even if Obama was piloting those gunships and they had a big banner of "Yes We Can" painted on it, it still should have been shot down.

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> ......................
> 
> i guess the information will come in bits or piecemeal and the story will take a lot of turns, makes little difference to the grieving familes I can imagine some of them will be getting teased by pro-Taliban elements that their sons died at the hands of the Americans they were trying to fight for.....................



Thank you for that logical post.

For all my impartiality and cold logic, and being blamed for being disrespectful rather unfairly, I know first hand what families of martyrs go through, including a lifetime of children growing up without their father's help, support, wisdom and guidance. Their torment has only just begun and will last long after the world and the country has moved on.

I know.

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## Najam Khan

VCheng said:


> 2(00) meters can be an error, 2 km is NOT; hence it is important to carefully analyze all facts before spouting off, wouldn't you agree?


 


VCheng said:


> Let's wait for the final report.
> 
> I said CAN be an error, not whether it is, or was.
> 
> A location identified as a source of unfriendly fire will be targeted in such a way that a radius of several hundred feet around it is instantly annihilated. It doesn't matter if 2 or 20 or 200 targets fire back, sit, sleep or run. They will be killed. SOP.


 
VCheng, 
The posts were not new ones. Their coordinates were already pointed out to the US/NATO forces at least a year ago, any active pilot operating in the area would witness the boundaries mentioned in map or computer of the aircraft.

The NATO's base is also few hundred meters away from the Pakistani base, according to brother of Maj Mujahid Shaheed it was even visible from Pakistani post. (He gave a detailed interview on phone to Tv one). Pilots not only get information from cockpit, but also follow their maps....its not a computer game where you pick any targets of your choice, getting into an engagement is related to mission load, objectives and exit strategy. If everything is available then a target is engaged.

NATO helicopters attacked, then turned back...visited the same place again and attacked...then visited the second post after one hour. In the meantime PA had contacted the NAO counterparts, if first attack was a mistake was the second one too? *Considering these as 'errors' would be the worst interpretation of these events.*

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## Capt.Popeye

VCheng said:


> Thank you for that logical post.
> 
> For all my impartiality and cold logic, and being blamed for being disrespectful rather unfairly, I know first hand what families of martyrs go through, including a lifetime of children growing up without their father's help, support, wisdom and guidance. Their torment has only just begun and will last long after the world and the country has moved on.
> 
> I know.



I understand what you mean, VCheng. 
Time moves on, memories _seem_ to fade, wounds _seem_ to heal, do the scars go away?


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## r3alist

Asim Aquil said:


> That's going to be the downfall of the PA leadership. If the external forces don't end up routing them out, the internal ones will. You must defend from all threats. Even if Obama was piloting those gunships and they had a big banner of "Yes We Can" painted on it, it still should have been shot down.




honourable, but not practical am afraid.

theres other areas to readdress any imbalance, if need be.


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## VCheng

NAjAM Khan said:


> VCheng,
> The posts were not new ones. Their coordinates were already pointed out to the US/NATO forces at least a year ago, any active pilot operating in the area would witness the boundaries mentioned in map or computer of the aircraft.
> 
> The NATO's base is also few hundred meters away from the Pakistani base, according to brother of Maj Mujahid Shaheed it was even visible from Pakistani post. (He gave a detailed interview on phone to Tv one). Pilots not only get information from cockpit, but also follow their maps....its not a computer game where you pick any targets of your choice, getting into an engagement is related to mission load, objectives and exit strategy. If everything is available then a target is engaged.
> 
> NATO helicopters attacked, then turned back...visited the same place again and attacked...then visited the second post after one hour. In the meantime PA had contacted the NAO counterparts, if first attack was a mistake was the second one too? *Considering these as 'errors' would be the worst interpretation of these events.*



All I said was it CAN be an error for a distance of only 200-300 meters and not 2.5 km; it may turn out that the posts were rightly or wrongly thought to be the source of unfriendly fire.

There is much to be established yet.


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## VCheng

Capt.Popeye said:


> I understand what you mean, VCheng.
> Time moves on, memories _seem_ to fade, wounds _seem_ to heal, do the scars go away?



The scars NEVER go away, and they remain as painful as on Day One. Forever.

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## fd24

VCheng said:


> That is one of the many reasons why I keep suggesting to wait for the NATO report as well, for corroborations and/or contradictions.
> 
> =============================
> 
> 
> 
> From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of the other thread.



Cheng - If the only thing you can pull up is the location of the attack and croak on about it - would it be good to assume the rest of the issues you accept? Is it fair to say you will take the Nato version as gospel?
I sense there will be several different versions and sadly the truth may be diluted.
What cant be diluted and will be put down in history is Pakistani soldiers killed whilst sleeping and attacked - unprovoked and unwarranted - that cant and wont be diluted. As i have already posted the American game will be time is a great healer and let some time pass and the wounds of Pakistan emotions may start to heal.
BTW - does it matter if fatman17 is the TT Chairman? Does that change the value of the quality of his post as you seem to be the only one highlighting what title he has?

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## Mughal-Prince

rai_kamal said:


> ""Chal atleast tu to samaj gaya na""..



Mind your language Mister ... and behave yourself ... or see your way out of here ... Post Reported


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## ashokdeiva

I would have been happy if the Pakistani Airforce is scrambled to intercept the gunships and bring it down.
A friendly fire first time and then a deliberate attack the next time is some thing that is unacceptable.
If loss of life and a gunship were inflicted on the US side, then they would dare to attack the sovernity of a nation, just like that.
what is the US thinking that they can go just like that commiting crimes all over the world.

The PA's decession to communicate with the mother fuc$ers is questionable here.
with the infra red heat signature and pin-point kill of men, these US idiots should have had a clear intel on thier kill count and on whom they are firing at.

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## blain2

safriz said:


> Approximate translation..
> 
> _"It has been reported that a team of PAF and Army personnel has made a surprise visit to shamsi airbase and has inspected the drones and equipment there.
> The only evidence of the news we could get hold of was this picture in which PAF and Army personnel are shown standing near a USA drone and we can see an American soldier in the background.
> ISPR has not yet commented on this news and there is no confirmation or denial of this news from ISPR."_



That is a very old picture. It has nothing to do with the recent order to evacuate.

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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> .......... Is it fair to say you will take the Nato version as gospel?.....................



That would be wrong and unfair to say.

I have said to wait for the NATO report, and *then analyze it logically and impartially.*


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## F.O.X

Fake News , The Picture is at least 2-3 Years old.


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## Devil Soul

EXPRESSNEWS is quoting some american news paper reports that today also there were clashes between PAK Army & Nato forces and that both parties used heavy artillery, but no deaths are reported....


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## Roybot

mjnaushad said:


> This is the pic the news is about....



That photo is from 2007 apparently.






Ripple Effect


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## Areesh

Just read news on Geo. According to American newspaper there were clashes between soldiers of PA and ******* of NATO. No casualties on both sides. The incident occurred around Paktika province border.


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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> That would be wrong and unfair to say.
> 
> I have said to wait for the NATO report, and *then analyze it logically and impartially.*




thats what you are saying now. 

what you said before is pakistan will amend and retract its story. 


a consistent theme i noted during raymond davis saga, where you threw all your weight behind US version.

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## Awesome

Exaggeration. This is what they should do, but will never.

This should be an eviction, but its been an eviction notice. Lots of time till Dec. 11, time to do the infamous Pakistani leadership U-Turn.

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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> thats what you are saying now.
> 
> what you said before is pakistan will amend and retract its story.
> 
> 
> a consistent theme i noted during raymond davis saga, where you threw all your weight behind US version.



What I say is what I do. The distance of the posts from the border is the first of many changes we will see from the Pakistani side. Let us wait for the NATO report too.

I throw my weight behind truth, impartially. Always.


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## fd24

VCheng said:


> That would be wrong and unfair to say.
> 
> I have said to wait for the NATO report, and *then analyze it logically and impartially.*



Cheng - your intentions may to view things impartially - your posts dont suggest that. I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Many wont as you come across as if you don't believe or wont believe the Pakistani version. Thats why you generate annoyance. Please if you wish to remain impartial then with respect make all animals equal and don't make SOME animals MORE equal than others...... (George Orwell)

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> What I say is what I do. The distance of the posts from the border is the first of many changes we will see from the Pakistani side. Let us wait for the NATO report too.
> 
> I throw my weight behind truth, impartially. Always.



the claims around distance from the border is not relevant unless you can claim it to be relevant.

your first thing to say, and do, is prove this claim, as you are making the accusation the burden of proof lies with you, so theres your cold logic, over to you.


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## Stealth

GOOD WORK RUSSS!


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## Awesome

blain2 said:


> AM,
> 
> I think its established beyond a shadow of doubt that they knew what they were shooting at. As to what instigated them to do so, I am not sure. I have already stated my thoughts on their motivations.



I missed it, what was it? My guess is very layman, but I think it was another Osama type raid, but their presence was compromised, but the sheer lengthy duration of the attack, confuses me as if they were discovered the smart thing was to say oops and runaway. Perhaps they were just stupid, you know how these chopper American marines are, we saw them kill Iraqis for sport.

The next suspicion is that they assisted some terrorists to infiltrate into Pakistan, but risking such a big international incident was probably not worth it unless their assistance would lead to something truly catastrophic for Pakistan.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> I missed it, what was it? My guess is very layman, but I think it was another Osama type raid, but their presence was compromised, but the sheer lengthy duration of the attack, confuses me as if they were discovered the smart thing was to say oops and runaway. Perhaps they were just stupid, you know how these chopper American marines are, we saw them kill Iraqis for sport.
> 
> The next suspicion is that they assisted some terrorists to infiltrate into Pakistan, but risking such a big international incident was probably not worth it unless their assistance would lead to something truly catastrophic for Pakistan.



What good is this mere laymanly speculation at this point, might I ask?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> If the post was seen or thought to be the source of unfriendly fire, then it would indicate a response.[


No - if the post was the source of fire, and NATO knew it was a Pakistani post (as the detailed account indicates) then the NATO attack should have been called off while the Pakistani liaison contacted the PA.

The fact that the attack continued with an intent to completely destroy the two posts and kill the soldiers there indicates a deliberate attempt to inflict damage on Pakistani forces.

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## Ali.009

*PressTV - Russia threatens to block NATO routes​*Russia has threatened to block NATO's supply routes to Afghanistan, should the Western military alliance continue to disregard Moscow's concerns about the US-led defense shield for Europe, a report says. 


Russian Ambassador to NATO Dmitri Rogozin warned that Moscow will review its cooperation with the Western military alliance on Afghanistan if the NATO fails to address Russia's objections, the Wall Street Journal reported on Monday. 

Earlier on Thursday, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that direct actions will be taken if his country's concerns are not addressed. 

Medvedev envisioned possible missile attacks on Poland, Romania, Spain, and Turkey as a means to disable the counter-missile batteries, if the United States fails to acknowledge the concerns of the Russian defense officials. 

He also warned that the country will deploy nuclear weapons to European borders in response to the move. 

Russia's threats to suspend the NATO supply lines to Afghanistan coincides with a similar punitive measure taken by Pakistan on Saturday in retaliation to the US-led alliance's recent airstrikes on Pakistani military forces, which killed 24 soldiers. 

NATO started using safer routes in Russia to deliver its supplies to its forces since Washington and Moscow reset diplomatic relations in 2009. 

The Russian government has long opposed the NATO's disputed plan of deploying an anti-missile shield in Europe, arguing that the would-be system in its "backyard is not to secure Washington's European allies, but is effectively aimed at Russia. 

NATO claims that the anti-missile shield is planned to thwart possible attacks from 'rogue' states, and it will go ahead with the plan despite Russia's concerns. 

AO/GHN/HJL


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No - *if* the post was the source of fire, and NATO knew it was a Pakistani post ...................



The "IF" says it all. We don't know yet. Let's wait for the final NATO report too.


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## LeGenD

praful said:


> If incident lasted for so long... why didn't pakistan send the reinforcement ? There is a question mark on the Operational capabilities of PA.


What part of 'loss of communication' you did not get? 

When checkpost codenamed Volcano came under attack and was destroyed, the other checkpost codenamed Boulder located nearby sprang in to action and came to its aid (i.e. reinforcements). These brave soldiers even used Anti-Aircraft guns in the process. However, US forces tricked these reinforcements (including other mods of communication) by temporarily retreating and then struck again and destroyed the reinforcements and along with the second checkpost. 

US forces use 'communication jamming techniques' to blind their targets.

In addition, the whole region is mountaineous and rugged. It takes time to mobilize heavy firepower in such regions. Sending more troops to their deaths is the stupidest thing to do. PAF was the only viable option. However, US forces played a trick by temporarily retreating so that Pakistani administration shall not suspect something big.

Also, what do you think that any Asian airforce stands a chance against USAF? Think about it. Even IAF is cannon fodder in comparison.



praful said:


> How it leads to a war with US ? wern't your soldiers firing on the NATO or were just sitting ducks ? Tomorrow if US do the same thing would you again put the same argument ? Come on they were pounding your post with impunity for more than 2 hrs that itself qualified as a war against Pakistan. I am not inciting you but the question will remain that what PA did to secure their invaluable assets ?


No, Pakistani soldiers fought bravely. They did not cared that how overwhelming was the adversary. Many soldiers embraced shahadat in the process. Salute to them.

Even NATO sources confirmed that they faced effective resistance.

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## Hulk

VCheng so far your argument is weak. Unless something dramatic comes out from NATO.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> What I say is what I do. The distance of the posts from the border is the first of many changes we will see from the Pakistani side. Let us wait for the NATO report too.
> 
> I throw my weight behind truth, impartially. Always.


I fail to see how you can claim to be 'impartial and logical' when you continue to lie about the fact that 'Pakistan has changed its account about the location of the post from 2.5KM to 300m'. I have asked you repeatedly to point out where the official ISPR/PA account shifted from 2.5KM to 300m, and you have not done so.

---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ----------




VCheng said:


> What I say is what I do. The distance of the posts from the border is the first of many changes we will see from the Pakistani side. Let us wait for the NATO report too.
> 
> I throw my weight behind truth, impartially. Always.


I fail to see how you can claim to be 'impartial and logical' when you continue to lie about the fact that 'Pakistan has changed its account about the location of the post from 2.5KM to 300m'. I have asked you repeatedly to point out where the official ISPR/PA account shifted from 2.5KM to 300m, and you have not done so.

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## iPhone

Another clash between Pak forces and Nato.

WASHINGTON: A US newspaper has claimed that there had been fresh armed clashes between Pakistan and Nato forces on Wednesday morning, Geo News reported.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I fail to see how you can claim to be 'impartial and logical' when you continue to lie about the fact that 'Pakistan has changed its account about the location of the post from 2.5KM to 300m'. I have asked you repeatedly to point out where the official ISPR/PA account shifted from 2.5KM to 300m, and you have not done so.



Already did:




fatman17 said:


> ......................................
> 
> *Two military officials said* that up to 25 Pakistani troops had been killed and 14 wounded in the *attack on the Salala check post, about 2.5 km (1.5 miles) from the Afghan border.
> *
> ...................................



From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of the other thread.

The official account of the ISPR has changed from what military officials were saying earlier; ISPR is already doing what many accuse the NATO of, which has not happened till yet.


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## Imran Khan

iPhone said:


> Another clash between Pak forces and Nato.
> 
> WASHINGTON: A US newspaper has claimed that there had been fresh armed clashes between Pakistan and Nato forces on Wednesday morning, Geo News reported.



still we are begging for mercy i never read any news abut Pakistan deploy fresh forces and ready for reply same to NATO -US .they know we are shameless even they killed our solders we have no balls to reply with arms .we just can bla bla bla .

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## sputnik

I think it is most scariest part of WoT. They keep firing for 2 hrs on them and still these shameless have face to show to the world. I hope pak will take strict action against this lunatic behaviour of NATO. I must say Pak army should keep this matter burning in media, it definitely creates pressure on current inept Pak govt. to get their *** kicked in coming elections

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## VCheng

indianrabbit said:


> VCheng so far your argument is weak. Unless something dramatic comes out from NATO.



I am not making any argument other than to WAIT for the NATO report. Then we can discuss with more information.


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## blain2

VCheng said:


> Already did:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of the other thread.
> 
> The official account of the ISPR has changed from what military officials were saying earlier; ISPR is already doing what many accuse the NATO of, which has not happened till yet.



VC,

What the DGMO disclosed is more accurate. The two "unnamed" military officials could have been officers posted in the GHQ, or the Corps headquarters or anyone just commenting on the location of these posts without actually knowing them. Thus the problem with "unnamed" sources.

What the DGMO is stating is essentially information gathered and gleaned after initial investigations at the site.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

wilsonnadar said:


> US has plan "B" for transporting its goods already. And before it leaves Afghanistan, it will make sure Afghanistan is NO MORE A LAND LOCKED COUNTRY









> Mark my word.









> I know what kind of response I am going to get for this post.





> Reality sucks.



the reality is that you have got to be thick-headed and suffering from at least a mild form of retardation to come up with something like that...reality must suck indeed (for you)





> It wont take much to divide Pakistan, IF USA WANTS.



well they say that Afghanistan is a graveyard for empires.....well in the case of the USA, it seems to be the divider of empires as well.....in fact, it seems that Prez Obama and his state department/white house team have lost control over their mighty military.....seems to me that the cracks and fissures in the relationship between WH/State Dept & CIA/Pentagon is more pronounced today than it ever was since the time of John F. Kennedy




> There is a story.One day Cobra was sitting on Shiva's neck, which is his place. Karuda was flying over him. The snake saw the karuda, and asked him, "hey how you doing? Karuda said, As long as everyone stay in their place everything is fine. The day you come down from your place, then I will show you, how am I doing. That was Karudas response. Any way, Hope Pakistan knows its limits, and play its card safely.



so you bring up a 'holy hindu snake god' to try to prove a point? fack outta here 

by the way, Pakistan is staying in place. . . It is you (NATO) that will inevitably leave --willingly or perhaps 'unwillingly'

Pakistan knows its limits and despite being pushed beyond her own limit, it remained within limit; though I think after ''ally's'' decided to murder 24 of our soldiers in a cowardly attack (while they were asleep) no need to worry about limits.....because at this point things are very clear. Pakistan was willing to help NATO find an at least half-dignified exit out of Afghanistan; good luck on your own! Surely you have that ''mission accomplished'' banner aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln? Use it again to fool your public into thinking you succeeded this time --ground realities (and the truth) can never be hidden.





> End of the day ignorance is bliss.



quite the preacher, and yet you don't even know what land-locked means. . .

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## VCheng

blain2 said:


> .......................
> What the DGMO is stating is essentially information gathered and gleaned after initial investigations at the site.



All I am asking is for the same measure to be used for the other side too, and to wait for NATO to present its side too.

(And I would expect officers to keep their mouths *shut *unless needed, if you know what I mean.)


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## iPhone

why are we beating around the bush? this is the first official Pakistani report, let's wait and see what changes and amendments are brought into this account then we can start pointing fingers.

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## regular

VCheng said:


> I am not making any argument other than to WAIT for the NATO report. Then we can discuss with more information.


Hey! VCheng did the NATO hire U to be their spokesperson on this Forum......???.........

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## ashokdeiva

the very violation soverign land and air spaces by NATO is going to start another war in the region.
these trigger happy morons need to be taught the value of life, then they will think before they pull/push the trigger buttons of the weapons system they maintain.

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## VCheng

regular said:


> Hey! VCheng did the NATO hire U to be their spokesperson on this Forum......???.........



Response self-deleted.


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## fd24

VCheng said:


> What I say is what I do. The distance of the posts from the border is the first of many changes we will see from the Pakistani side. Let us wait for the NATO report too.
> 
> I throw my weight behind truth, impartially. Always.



Cheng - i would strongly recommend you answering Agnos question in his last post as the avoidance of answering makes you look like a dodgy politician - answer the question or else i will start calling you George Bush Zardari.....

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## Machoman

I think they want to start war.....


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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> Cheng - i would strongly recommend you answering Agnos question in his last post as the avoidance of answering makes you look like a dodgy politician - answer the question or else i will start calling you George Bush Zardari.....



Already did. In two threads.

Call me whatever you like, it does not matter to me. Facts are what they are.


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## LeGenD

blain2 said:


> We were not the ones who came back into the marriage after 10 years of sanctions during the 90s. The other side came asking for a reconciliation.
> 
> We can make do with economic challenges we would face without the American support. So lets not make it sound like Pakistan is unable to survive without American support.


We can develop the capability to survive without foreign aid if we address corruption.

Also, we should be very careful in our foreign policy matters. Some traps have been laid on our path and we should not fall in them.

Our current economic situation is so bleak that we will not survive economic strangulation from USA, if it ever is decided, and I hope that this never happens.

Now is the time to learn from our past mistakes. It is still not too late for us.



Zarvan said:


> Sir if some one really analysis the so called American Aid he will find out that it is nothing more than a Joke and if America with draws it it will only effect us 5 % not more than that So what we need to do is shut down the Nato Supply line for 6 Months and if they ever attack again use all your fire power to hit back their will no attack than and also if they try to adopt some other route for their Nato supply its cost will be increase many times


Read above.

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## Emmie

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/world/asia/border-clash-tests-nato-pakistan-ties.html?_r=1&hp



> *Clash Between NATO and Pakistani Forces Defused*
> KABUL, Afghanistan &#8212; A cross-border incident involving NATO and Pakistani forces was quickly defused early on Wednesday with no loss of life, according to Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, the spokesman for the American-led international coalition here.
> 
> Few details of the incident were immediately available but it apparently involved heavy artillery fire across the Afghanistan-Pakistan border in Afghanistan&#8217;s Paktika province.
> 
> The firing broke out at a time of Pakistani anger over the killing of 24 of its soldiers in a United States air strike on Saturday. Pakistan closed its border to NATO supply convoys and pulled out of an international conference on Afghanistan next week in Bonn in protest at the killings.
> 
> Separately, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton expressed regret at Pakistan&#8217;s decision to stay away from the Bonn conference.
> 
> &#8220;Frankly, it is regrettable that Pakistan has decided not to attend the conference in Bonn, because this conference has been long in the planning,&#8221; Mrs. Clinton said in Busan, South Korea before flying to Myanmar on Wednesday.
> 
> &#8220;Pakistan, like the United States, has a profound interest in a secure, stable, increasingly democratic Afghanistan. Our gathering in Bonn this coming Monday is intended to further that goal.&#8221;
> 
> In the latest border incident, General Jacobson said it was reassuring that normal channels of cooperation and communication had been opened to resolve the issue.
> 
> &#8220;We haven&#8217;t got the details yet but the most important thing is the normal methods of cooperation worked and there were no casualties, no damage despite heavy firing,&#8221; he said.


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## regular

VCheng said:


> No, the "Indian Muslims" who lost North America to the "Goraz" "centuries ago" may have!


Hey Excellent ! if U trying to help these poor Red Indianz to get their motherland back from these Goraz.....I guess their forefatherz spirits will be so happi with U.....and will pray for ure success.....
Hey! but I guess U mistaken NATO with poor Indian Muslimz.....


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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Already did:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of the other thread.
> 
> The official account of the ISPR has changed from what military officials were saying earlier; ISPR is already doing what many accuse the NATO of, which has not happened till yet.




are you normally giving credence to unknown sources?

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## Areesh

regular said:


> Hey! VCheng did the NATO hire U to be their spokesperson on this Forum......???.........



He is an *American* citizen.


----------



## Fieldmarshal

fatman17 said:


> hopefully we are not 'isolating' ourselves



sir Pakistan is doing no such thing and Istanbul was an example of that where iran, russia, china sided with Pakistan. even though turkey on the behest of u.s tried it utmost to convince Pakistan to do other wise.
so bonn is a waste of time as again the key countries that have a border with Afghanistan and major regional/intl players they dont agree with the u.s point of view and infact want the u.s out, plain and simple.

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## Emmie

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/world/asia/border-clash-tests-nato-pakistan-ties.html?_r=1&hp



> *Clash Between NATO and Pakistani Forces Defused*
> 
> KABUL, Afghanistan &#8212; A cross-border incident involving NATO and Pakistani forces was quickly defused early on Wednesday with no loss of life, according to Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, the spokesman for the American-led international coalition here.
> 
> Few details of the incident were immediately available but it apparently involved heavy artillery fire across the Afghanistan-Pakistan border in Afghanistan&#8217;s Paktika province.
> 
> The firing broke out at a time of Pakistani anger over the killing of 24 of its soldiers in a United States air strike on Saturday. Pakistan closed its border to NATO supply convoys and pulled out of an international conference on Afghanistan next week in Bonn in protest at the killings.
> 
> Separately, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton expressed regret at Pakistan&#8217;s decision to stay away from the Bonn conference.
> 
> &#8220;Frankly, it is regrettable that Pakistan has decided not to attend the conference in Bonn, because this conference has been long in the planning,&#8221; Mrs. Clinton said in Busan, South Korea before flying to Myanmar on Wednesday.
> 
> &#8220;Pakistan, like the United States, has a profound interest in a secure, stable, increasingly democratic Afghanistan. Our gathering in Bonn this coming Monday is intended to further that goal.&#8221;
> 
> In the latest border incident, General Jacobson said it was reassuring that normal channels of cooperation and communication had been opened to resolve the issue.
> 
> &#8220;We haven&#8217;t got the details yet but the most important thing is the normal methods of cooperation worked and there were no casualties, no damage despite heavy firing,&#8221; he said.


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## LeGenD

Mercenary said:


> It was an accident.
> 
> NATO was conducting operations in this area when they mistook the Pakistani outposts as Taliban bases.


Dude, seriously?

This was a calculated attack by NATO to disloge Pakistani forces from the region. There is no excuse this time.


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## Shameel

What a strategic masterstroke from Russia!

Russia will exact a heavy monetary, political, diplomatic and strategic price from NATO, which will render NATO's so-called "Northern Distribution Network" monetarily, politically, diplomatically and strategically unviable for NATO.

In simpler words, Russia has NATO by the balls!


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## regular

Machoman said:


> I think they want to start war.....


Yes! U absolutely right about that.....The globalists want full fledge war to eastablish their global Govt. so that Anti-Christ can come......Pakistan, Russia and China are their only last resistances.......


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## fd24

ashokdeiva said:


> the very violation soverign land and air spaces by NATO is going to start another war in the region.
> these trigger happy morons need to be taught the value of life, then they will think before they pull/push the trigger buttons of the weapons system they maintain.



Ashok bhai - the longer they stay silent the more i realize this was a horrendous accident or trigger happy moronic moron individuals. The investigation and the response they give cant and wont calm the tempers down. Any sovereign state would have the same response as Pakistan are showing. I suggest the first thing they must do - and this may be the most difficult - is be completely truthful because their credibility is zero and any stories they start making up will perhaps will result in pouring oil on the fire.


----------



## Safriz

Areesh said:


> He is an *American* citizen.



Yaar its ok..why are we hell bent on changing a person's opinion however ludicrous it may be...
People can choose which side they are on ,if he is on NATO / USA's side..so be it..


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## iPhone

Glad to see mass rallies around the country in number of cities in support of Pak army and the martyrd soldeirs. I had almost given up hope that Pakistan will ever be united as a nation, it began to look more and more like a crowd than a nation. But this solderity and support was very moving and overwhelming. ppl and buisnesses were actually asking to boycotts nato countries' products.


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## Imran Khan

funny thing in this incident is still we are licking US feet and blaming NATO choppers reality is they was US helicopters not NATO lolz we have no balls to talk face to face US we are hiding behind nato even we lose our men what a shame


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## regular

Areesh said:


> He is an *American* citizen.


US/NATO is the same thing here, they all working for each other.....Sir!


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## Areesh

safriz said:


> Yaar its ok..why are we hell bent on changing a person's opinion however ludicrous it may be...
> People can choose which side they are on ,if he is on NATO / USA's side..so be it..



I have no problem with him supporting NATO or Amreeka. Just saying why he is supporting them. He is supporting his country which makes sense.


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## r3alist

america have to make one decision in their response.

was their provocation? as long as they put this argument forward they will be fine, because the western world do no believe that NATO would do wrong therefore it has to be provocation from the pakistani side, terrible logic but thats what propaganda does to people.


this will then become "his word against ours" scenario with no definitive proof.

you can easily predict the response, nato doing a mission, pak fired, things got out of hand, we express regret, blah blah blah.


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## Safriz

NATO done it by mistake...dont you people realize?


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## Shameel

patna_ke_presley said:


> You missed that point bro. Any way Americans have *third supply route Georgia-Azerbaijan-Kazakhstan-Uzbekistan* without going through Russia.



A route as risky as Pakistan in the unstable Caucuses with Iran to the south, Russia to the north. Also, they would have to offload the cargo in Georgian ports, upload it again in Azerbaijani ports, then offload it again in Turkmenistan. Countries they would have to deal with: Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan. A logistical nightmare. If they use the Kazakhstan-Uzbekistan route, then add another country to the logistics.

Also, as someone already pointed out, there are anti-US forces in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, which may disrupt the NATO supply lines.

No matter which NDN route NATO chooses, it will significantly add to the cost of the Afghanistan war as the Pakistan route is and will always remain the shortest, quickest and most economical route to Afghanistan. Also, no country in the region can match the quality of six-lane highways and motorways in Pakistan.

Finally, the NDN route enters Afghanistan from the north whereas the bulk of the population centres and NATO bases are in the east and south of Afghanistan, so they will have to traverse half of volatile Afghanistan to reach their destination. Whereas you reach Kandahar and Kabul within 2 hours of entering Afghanistan from Pakistan.


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## Machoman

"Sabar ka phal mitha hota hai" aur Pakistan sirf sabar pay sabar kiya ja raha hai.....when this sabar over prepare for fun guys....


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## ashokdeiva

superkaif said:


> Ashok bhai - the longer they stay silent the more i realize this was a horrendous accident or trigger happy moronic moron individuals. The investigation and the response they give cant and wont calm the tempers down. Any sovereign state would have the same response as Pakistan are showing. I suggest the first thing they must do - and this may be the most difficult - is be completely truthful because their credibility is zero and any stories they start making up will perhaps will result in pouring oil on the fire.



I concur with you borther,
but I am not happy with the way the PA handled the situation when the attack happened, they should have scrambled their airforce and should have gunned down that morron who was in the cockpit of that gun ship.
That would have sent a strong message to the NATO that they can not get away with what ever they do.

---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------




safriz said:


> NATO done it by mistake...dont you people realize?


I do not believe it, its the action of some lunatic on the cockpit of the gun ship. and its no mistake, its a delibareate action of that idiot to increase his kill score and in this desperation he forgot that he is engaging friendlies all he thought of was the number of kills and not the people he is engaging


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## mr42O

Dr. NooB NinjA said:


> Times Of India reporting that a video of the incident has been released by the Pakistani establishment..!!  ... Any links??!! I seriously doubt the reporting of TOI though..!!
> 
> Pakistan releases video of Nato air strikes, says apology not enough - The Times of India



Thanks for sharing link were i can read Indians comments which clearly show were Indian mentaly. Indians are realy fucked up ppl. Wait when ur daddy leaves afghanistan we will deal with u


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## patna_ke_presley

Shameel said:


> A route as risky as Pakistan in the unstable Caucuses with Iran to the south, Russia to the north. Also, they would have to offload the cargo in Georgian ports, upload it again in Azerbaijani ports, then offload it again in Turkmenistan. Countries they would have to deal with: Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan. A logistical nightmare. If they use the Kazakhstan-Uzbekistan route, then add another country to the logistics.
> 
> Also, as someone already pointed out, there are anti-US forces in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, which may disrupt the NATO supply lines.



They are already using this routes but it is roadways if you really think loading and unloading good is big deal. When you trade with China, you use Rail lines and Karakoram Highway and then again the rail line.

It seems you think Georgia, Azerbaijan is Chechnia and where Iran came here  also Iran don't own Caspian Sea.

Anyway, it seems Russians are giving only warning after the worth of NDN has increased because when it comes to Afghanistan everyone's interest like China, India, Russia and even Iran's interest converges in Afghanistan. There is direct rail line from Riga(all weather port) in Latvia to Mazar-e-Sharif all in Russian Gauge and when it comes to common interest two countries do co-operate.


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## ashokdeiva

mr42O said:


> Thanks for sharing link were i can read Indians comments which clearly show were Indian mentaly. Indians are realy fucked up ppl. Wait when ur daddy leaves afghanistan we will deal with u


brother, this is a issue between NATO and Pakistan, do not bring in INDIA, why do you always have to go with Time of India. there are over 27000 medias India and you always chose the worst to judge the Indian mentality.
I am an Indian, have i condemned the act of lunacy here or did i rejoice on the death of 28 men. and one of them a Captian just became a father and has a 3 month old baby. I really felt bad and so does most of the Indians.
Kindly do not bait the Indians for your mentality of finding the black dot in a white sheet, see the white sheet and you'll realize that the white space is large and the black dot is just a small tint.

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## Mytime

Ali.009 said:


> *PressTV - Russia threatens to block NATO routes​*
> *Russia has threatened to block NATO's supply routes to Afghanistan, should the Western military alliance continue to disregard Moscow's concerns about the US-led defense shield for Europe*, a report says.



However most in Pakistan are of the opinion that Russia is threatening NATO out of care for pakistan ! something to ponder


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## patna_ke_presley

Developereo said:


> Pakistan border closure will have little effect on Nato's Afghanistan campaign | World news | The Guardian
> 
> _The route through Uzbekistan is currently in question, however, after a key bridge near the Afghan border was damaged by an explosion 10 days ago and has been closed since.
> 
> Neither the US nor the Uzbeks have commented on the cause of the explosion, although there are fears it could be the work of *the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which is allied to the Taliban*._



That explosion was 15 days ago and Uzbeks still co-operating with Americans.  From Kazakhstan the route separates between two, one through Uzbekistan and other through Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan.


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## Shameel

patna_ke_presley said:


> They are already using this routes but it is roadways if you really think loading and unloading good is big deal. When you trade with China, you use Rail lines and Karakoram Highway and then again the rail line.
> 
> It seems you think Georgia, Azerbaijan is Chechnia and where Iran came here  also Iran don't own Caspian Sea.
> 
> Anyway, it seems Russians are giving only warning after the worth of NDN has increased because when it comes to Afghanistan everyone's interest like China, India, Russia and even Iran's interest converges in Afghanistan. There is direct rail line from Riga(all weather port) in Latvia to Mazar-e-Sharif all in Russian Gauge and when it comes to common interest two countries do co-operate.



1. Pakistani trade with China through the Karakoram Highway only uses trucks. No rail, no ships. So no repeat offloading and onloading.

2. Russia and Iran both have influence in Azerbaijan. 

3. Russia does not give warnings without purpose. Russia and China also have an overriding strategic interest in denying the US and NATO a permanent base in Afghanistan. Iran and Pakistan also have the same interest. So Russia, China, Pakistan and Iran all want the US out of Afghanistan.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Already did:
> 
> From the TT Chairman's own post on the first page of the other thread.
> 
> The official account of the ISPR has changed from what military officials were saying earlier; ISPR is already doing what many accuse the NATO of, which has not happened till yet.


You have provided 'anonymous sources and media accounts', you have not provided two official versions of statements from ISPR/PA that contradict themselves on the 2.5KM/300M issue.

Is your need to be an apologist for the West so great that you can resort to such blatant lying/disingenuity?

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## somebozo

Russia Pakistan interests crossing the lines somewhere..hehe!


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## Shameel

Mytime said:


> However most in Pakistan are of the opinion that Russia is threatening NATO out of care for pakistan ! something to ponder



Nobody in Pakistan is under any illusion with respect to Russia. Russia will squeeze NATO's balls for its own benefit. Pakistan did not block NATO's transit route for the benefit of Russia and Russia will not block the NDN for Pakistan's benefit. But both Pakistan and Russia benefit collaterally from each others actions. "An enemy of an enemy is a friend." Bizmarckian "Realpolitik" applies here.

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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> something is common among them YOUR SOVEREIGNTY, is it a different case.
> so what if someone rob your house, burn it down, kill a few etc .... are all these cases different for you to be treated differently, when you have guards for protection.


The issue of sovereignty is the same, but drones attacks are being done with full government compliance, so you cannot really complain. Terrorists do get shot, and civilians also in them, in most cases, the civilians are their friends.

The point I was trying to make was that we should not say that the initial response to the OBL episode and this incident should have been the same. You cannot just say that shoot it down. If it is a border area with Afghanistan, you wait for the other heli to respond and engage, in Abbotabad, you wait so that you can positively identify the aircraft and then engage. Don't need to be just trigger happy.

---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You have provided 'anonymous sources and media accounts', you have not provided two official versions of statements from ISPR/PA that contradict themselves on the 2.5KM/300M issue.
> 
> Is your need to be an apologist for the West so great that you can resort to such blatant lying/disingenuity?



Hey , you have to have both sides of the story to make an argument!!!


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## Imran Khan

any news abut US NATO come indians never forget to post remarks for behalf of them as after nato- us there is end of world?


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You have provided 'anonymous sources and media accounts', you have not provided two official versions of statements from ISPR/PA that contradict themselves on the 2.5KM/300M issue.
> 
> Is your need to be an apologist for the West so great that you can resort to such blatant lying/disingenuity?



The disingenuity lies with those officers of the Pakistan Army/ISI who reported all that unverified information to the press to fan flames, not me, and all those on PDF and the media that propagated it.

All the backtracking that will now happen will not discomfort me at all, but you. I need not say anything after the Pakistani Defence minister announced that supply routes will open after a suitable statement from NATO.

I rest my case.


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## r3alist

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> You have provided 'anonymous sources and media accounts', you have not provided two official versions of statements from ISPR/PA that contradict themselves on the 2.5KM/300M issue.
> 
> Is your need to be an apologist for the West so great that you can resort to such blatant lying/disingenuity?



take a break vcheng, i got this response





> i am, therefore i think, so i see, as a bee.
> 
> the NATO account will give us full details, therefore i can apply ice cold logic to determine how somehow the pakistan army was atleast partially to blame, lets wait for the details and speculate no further.


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## Jango

OrionHunter said:


> It's intriguing that in spite of 12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons and mortars fired by the AK Battalion as well as artillery air bursts in the area where the choppers were flying, there was not a single NATO casualty? I understand that the op took place at night. But mortars and artillery can fire flares too, which could have been used to locate and light up the choppers after which the anti aircraft guns could have taken them on.
> 
> Just my two bits as I have no clue what the SOPs are and whether this was done or not. (Requires a lot of coordination though).


 

You dont shoot down helis with artillery and mortars. Flares could be used, but for what? There were no ground toops AFAIK. Helis can be located pretty easily, it is the identification that is a problem. So, until the helis fired at them, they had no way of identifying the aircraft , or until they would have contacted their area HQ and check for any flights in that sector.


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## somebozo

We should tactially arm some rougue agents with shoulder mounted SAMs to down some American choppers or even civilian airlines. The operation should be code name Kenny!


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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> take a break vcheng, i got this response



Source, please?


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## Jango

blain2 said:


> Artillery was used by own side for air bursts against the helis which withdrew. 30 rounds were fired by the field guns.
> 
> As to the positions, these are "border" posts and as such would be fairly close to the actual border and not 2.5km inside. Maybe initially the reporting was incorrect, but the facts are that these are recognized and registered via grid positions known to all sides engaged. While I can understand that some map-reading challenged ANA trooper may not have understood, but the strikes were called in by a US SF operator whose approving chain of command was definitely aware where Pakistanis were posted.



But I am sure that you would agree with me, that you don't use artillery guns against helicopters!

The ISAF has been blaming the ANA now, saying they were the ones who called in the air strikes.

---------- Post added at 10:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> The disingenuity lies with those officers of the Pakistan Army/ISI who reported all that unverified information to the press to fan flames, not me, and all those on PDF and the media that propagated it.
> 
> All the backtracking that will now happen will not discomfort me at all, but you. I need not say anything after the Pakistani Defence minister announced that supply routes will open after a suitable statement from NATO.
> 
> I rest my case.



Did the army say that supply routes will be blocked permanently?

I take it that the defence minister is not a member or officer of the army.


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## W.11

dear vcheng, US govt has already said, it was a mistake, so you guys will be backtracking from the claims you made if what you think will be the nato report??


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## Sinnerman108

When the USA is good nothing is better, 
When USA is bad, nothing is even better !

At least for Zardari the above illogical statement seems to be worth in gold.

1 Act from USA has white washed NRO, Imran's onslaught and tails of interior corruption.

I am forced to argue

For 4 years these politicians were American slaves because their children and their wealth was in USA and europe,

So how can the blood of 24 men, change things ? their wealth and children are still in USA, and no one has given up their American green card neither.

Haven't you noticed all the NATO trucks which are sitting ducks, NONE of them have been attacked for the last 3 days ?

One can deduce that this apparently unprovoked attack on a military check post is not so useless after all. The Americans are lending a helping hand to their stooges in Islamabad.

I think the americans will keep the lid on this one, let the PPP give anti american statements and mold public sentiment to their favor and take the momentum away from Imran Khan.

Readers can give their comments hence forth, but please do consider the fact that 
the people who sold Pakistan are still the same people, their interests their wealth and family
are all aborad and they themselves are American or british nationals.


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## ashokdeiva

somebozo said:


> We should tactially arm some rougue agents with shoulder mounted SAMs to down some American choppers or even civilian airlines. The operation should be code name Kenny!


Don't repeate the mistakes of the past.
If the Pakistanis have to command respect in the international table and turn the wave in its favour, its always the way you take accontability for what you do.
I or the whole world would be happy to have gunned downed the gunship with the F16s that you have, so that NATO will not dare to attack a outpost of a friendly army again.

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Source, please?



source is ME, guessing that was obvious, you are pretty predictable, i just proved it.


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> .... and as i said elsewhere, that is one of the many reasons why I keep suggesting to wait for the NATO report as well, for corroborations and/or contradictions.



You say wait for report by NATO, but we have got the FIR you might say, by our DG ISPR, and that is good enough for us.

Nobody here cares if the media retracts it's statements, but the DG ISPR has been constant in his claims.


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## F.O.X

> *Fresh clashes between Nato, Pakistan forces: US paper*
> 
> NEW YORK: According to a report published in a US newspaper, there was a fresh clash on Wednesday between Pakistan and Nato forces.
> 
> The clash apparently involved heavy artillery fire across the Afghanistan-Pakistan border in Afghanistans Paktika province.
> 
> The spokesman for ISAF adds that there was no loss of life reported during the incident.
> 
> Fresh clashes between Nato, Pakistan forces: US paper





> Pak Army denies report of fresh clash with Nato
> Pakistan Army has denied report of a fresh clash with Nato troops on Afghan border.
> 
> 
> A US paper reported that Pak Army and Nato troops had a clash on Afghan border early Wednesday.
> 
> However, Pakistan s Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) DG Maj-Gen Athar Abbas said that no new clash or exchange of fire broke out between the Pakistan Army and Nato forces.
> 
> Similarly, Pentagon also stepped in to challenge the health of the New York Times report. Pentagon said it did not know of any new clash with the Pak troops.
> 
> The New York Times has quoted Brig Gen Carsten Jacobson, the spokesman for the American-led international coalition, as saying that the fresh cross-border incident involving NATO and Pakistani forces was quickly defused early on Wednesday with no loss of life.
> 
> Few details of the incident were immediately available but it apparently involved heavy artillery fire across the Afghanistan-Pakistan border in Afghanistans Paktika province, said the New York Times.
> 
> In the latest border incident, General Jacobson was quoted as saying that it was reassuring that normal channels of cooperation and communication had been opened to resolve the issue.
> 
> We havent got the details yet but the most important thing is the normal methods of cooperation worked and there were no casualties, no damage despite heavy firing, the NYT quoted him as saying.
> 
> Dunya News: Pakistanak Army denies report of fresh clash with Nato...



Two different channels , two different Reports , Some sources say it happened some says it didnt . Details are still not confirmed , but as per ISPR it did not happen , so i will like to go with that.

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## Leader

just saw people tweeting about another skirmish between NATO forces and PAK army.

what do these NATO monkeys want? WWIII ? 

I think there is some sort of drift going on between Army and Government to which NATO is siding the later. memogate scandal already put behind !!

and just saw on one program that Kamran shahid was telling that Kiya-nai said "we cannot do anything about NATO attacks, because we lack technology". 

haye shabash aye !!


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## fd24

r3alist said:


> source is ME, guessing that was obvious, you are pretty predictable, i just proved it.



Come in yaar - unless the source is made in Amreeka then dont bother according to the rule of chengography

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## Jango

superkaif said:


> Come in yaar - unless the source is made in Amreeka then dont bother according to the rule of chengography



Unless the source is said by the mouth of a high level NATO official, it does not matter.

But for us poor Pakistanis, the word of the DGMO and DG ISPR should be clear and enough.


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## W.11

very immature, if there is some problem it should come to the media, nato should explain the prob, but no, their actions are gighly doubtious mischief


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## Imran Khan

NATO is getting mad because of shortage of breads and cigarettes

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## Safriz

Imran Khan said:


> NATO is getting mad because of shortage of breads and cigarettes



wrong...its the shortage of booze thats making them mad


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## somebozo

We should move some air defense SAM to the border..


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## F.O.X

Things are about to get Worse for NATO/US in Afg , They have no ideas what is coming towards them , or may be they do & have decided to close their eyes & pretend every thing is fine (as they always do)

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## Shameel

Asim Aquil said:


> Exaggeration. This is what they should do, but will never.
> 
> This should be an eviction, but its been an eviction notice. Lots of time till Dec. 11, time to do the infamous Pakistani leadership U-Turn.


 
Wait till 11 December before passing your pessimistic comments.


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## Karachiite

If it is true then Pak should take action and destroy them. Pull out of the War of Terror and leave America and NATO to be kicked out by the Taliban.


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## 888jamie888

Champ said:


> Things are about to get Worse for NATO/US in Afg , They have no ideas what is coming towards them , or may be they do & have decided to close their eyes & pretend every thing is fine (as they always do)


Ever thought about it from the other way around? Have you any idea what is coming towards you??


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## patna_ke_presley

Shameel said:


> 1. Pakistani trade with China through the Karakoram Highway only uses trucks. No rail, no ships. So no repeat offloading and onloading.
> 
> 2. Russia and Iran both have influence in Azerbaijan.
> 
> 3. Russia does not give warnings without purpose. Russia and China also have an overriding strategic interest in denying the US and NATO a permanent base in Afghanistan. Iran and Pakistan also have the same interest. So Russia, China, Pakistan and Iran all want the US out of Afghanistan.



1. I think Pakistan has rail line upto Abottabad, after Abottabad there is dangerous road(i saw that in Al Jazeera) upto Kashgar and after Kashgar there is direct rail line to Eastern China. 

2. Other thing Azerbaijan are also inclined to Turkey which is NATO member which they have influence and they are currently allowing the transit route.

3. Please read this articles dated:- 28th November 2011. Afghanistan: NDN Finding Reverse Gear | EurasiaNet.org

Although Iran, China and Russia are skeptical of US butChinese are concerned about Uighur militants getting safe heaven in unstable Afghanistan, Russians are also cared about same and Iran cares more about Shia Hazaras. Abrupt withdrawal of US would mean leaving a dangerous country for all neighbours. But they won't allow US to stay after 2014.


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## Adnan Faruqi

*NATO says Pakistan resumes some cooperation by preventing Afghanistan border incident*

KABUL, Afghanistan  Pakistan resumed some cooperation with U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan following NATO strikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers by working with the coalition to prevent another cross-border incident from escalating, a spokesman said Wednesday.

The airstrikes have severely strained the already troubled relationship between Pakistan and the U.S., jeopardizing Washingtons hopes of enlisting Islamabads support in winding down the Afghan war.


( Inter Services Public Relations Department / Associated Press ) - In this Nov. 26, 2011 photo released by Inter Services Public Relations department, a Pakistan army post reportedly targeted by NATO helicopters and resulting in the deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers is seen in the Pakistani tribal area of Mohmand, along the Afghanistan border. Pakistan has withdrawn Wednesday, Nov. 30, 2011, from an international conference on stabilizing Afghanistan to protest the deadly attack by American forces on its troops, widening a fresh rupture in ties with a nominal ally that is endangering the U.S. plan for gradually ending the war.

( Inter Services Public Relations Department / Associated Press ) - In this Nov. 26, 2011 photo released by Inter Services Public Relations department, a Pakistan army post reportedly targeted by NATO helicopters and resulting in the deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers is seen in the Pakistani tribal area of Mohmand, along the Afghanistan border. Pakistan has withdrawn Wednesday, Nov. 30, 2011, from an international conference on stabilizing Afghanistan to protest the deadly attack by American forces on its troops, widening a fresh rupture in ties with a nominal ally that is endangering the U.S. plan for gradually ending the war.

Pakistan is still outraged by the soldiers deaths and has retaliated by closing its Afghan border crossings to NATO supplies, demanding the U.S. vacate an air base used by American drones and boycotting an international conference aimed at stabilizing Afghanistan.

But NATO said Islamabad communicated with the alliance to prevent an exchange of artillery fire late Tuesday from turning into another international incident.

German Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, a NATO spokesman in Kabul, expressed hope that Pakistans cooperation in resolving the incident in eastern Afghanistans Paktia province signaled the two sides could recover from the recent tragedy. He did not provide more details about targets or who was doing the shooting but said no damage or injuries were reported.

We are continuing operations and it is of great importance that the incidents of Saturday, as tragic as they were, do not disrupt our capability to operate in the border area and cooperate with the Pakistani side, said Jacobson.

The Pakistani military did not immediately respond to request for comment on the latest incident.

Pakistani and American officials have offered different accounts of how NATO aircraft attacked two Pakistan army posts before dawn Saturday. But it seems clear that a breakdown in communication contributed to the tragedy.

*According to U.S. military records described to The Associated Press, the incident occurred when a joint U.S. and Afghan patrol requested backup after being hit by mortar and small arms fire by Taliban militants. Before responding, the joint U.S.-Afghan patrol first checked with the Pakistani army, which reported it had no troops in the area, the military account said.*

Pakistani officials have refuted this claim and said U.S. forces must have known they were attacking Pakistani soldiers because the posts were clearly marked on maps given to NATO and the two sides were in contact immediately before and during the airstrikes.

Pentagon press secretary George Little disputed suggestions that the attack on the Pakistani troops was deliberate.

In no way, shape or form should this be construed as in intentional attack on Pakistan by the United States. That is simply incorrect, Little told reporters in Washington.

The Pakistan army on Wednesday released photographs and video of the posts that were attacked in the Mohmand tribal area. The images show small, damaged structures made out of stacked gray stones perched on a steep, barren mountain ridge. A white flag flew next to one of the posts.

Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said he rejected person pleas from the Afghan president and the German chancellor to reconsider Islamabads decision to boycott the conference Monday in Bonn, Germany, on Afghanistan.

Few had high expectations for the conference, but the absence of Pakistan will make even minor progress more difficult. The Taliban called the conference an American trap and a plot to further ensnare Afghanistan into the flames of occupation in statement posted on its website Wednesday, according to Site Monitoring Services, a U.S.-based group that tracks militant websites.

Pakistan and Afghanistan have long had a strained relationship even though the two countries have ethnic and cultural similarities. Islamabad is angry at Kabul because the NATO aircraft that carried out the strikes that killed its soldiers were based in Afghanistan.

( Inter Services Public Relations Department / Associated Press ) - In this Nov. 26, 2011 photo released by Inter Services Public Relations department, a Pakistan army post reportedly targeted by NATO helicopters and resulting in the deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers is seen in the Pakistani tribal area of Mohmand, along the Afghanistan border. Pakistan has withdrawn Wednesday, Nov. 30, 2011, from an international conference on stabilizing Afghanistan to protest the deadly attack by American forces on its troops, widening a fresh rupture in ties with a nominal ally that is endangering the U.S. plan for gradually ending the war.
( K.M.Chaudary / Associated Press ) - Pakistani students burn a representation of a US flag during a rally against NATO strikes on Pakistani troops, in Lahore, Pakistan on Wednesday, Nov. 30, 2011. Pakistan has withdrawn from an international conference on stabilizing Afghanistan to protest the deadly attack by American forces on its troops, widening a fresh rupture in ties with a nominal ally that is endangering the U.S. plan for gradually ending the war.
( K.M.Chaudary / Associated Press ) - Pakistan students rally against NATO strikes on Pakistani troops, in Lahore, Pakistan on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011. Pakistan has withdrawn from an international conference on stabilizing Afghanistan to protest the deadly attack by American forces on its troops, widening a fresh rupture in ties with a nominal ally that is endangering the U.S. plan for gradually ending the war. Placard on left reads Go Zardari.
( Inter Services Public Relations Department / Associated Press ) - In this Nov. 26, 2011 photo provided by Pakistans Inter Services Public Relations department, smoke rises after a reported NATO airstrike in Pakistans tribal area of Mohmand, along the Afghanistan border. Pakistan has withdrawn from an international conference on stabilizing Afghanistan to protest the deadly attack by American forces on its troops, widening a fresh rupture in ties with a nominal ally that is endangering the U.S. plan for gradually ending the war.

( Inter Services Public Relations Department / Associated Press ) - In this Nov. 26, 2011 photo released by Inter Services Public Relations department, a Pakistan army post reportedly targeted by NATO helicopters and resulting in the deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers is seen in the Pakistani tribal area of Mohmand, along the Afghanistan border. Pakistan has withdrawn Wednesday, Nov. 30, 2011, from an international conference on stabilizing Afghanistan to protest the deadly attack by American forces on its troops, widening a fresh rupture in ties with a nominal ally that is endangering the U.S. plan for gradually ending the war.

Afghan land has been used against Pakistan, and we are protesting against this, Gilani told reporters in the southern city of Karachi. We dont want the land of our brother country, which is like a twin, to be used against Pakistan.

Pakistanis have staged small rallies protesting the strikes in the countrys major cities, many of them organized by anti-U.S. Islamist parties.

Re-establishing a workable relationship between Pakistan, Afghanistan and the U.S. is important because Islamabad is critical to the process of peace negotiations with the Taliban. Pakistan has historical ties with the group and is seen as the actor with the greatest leverage to push the Taliban to the negotiating table.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai moved forward with those efforts Wednesday, meeting with members of a council he set up to broker peace with the Taliban and reiterating the need for honest cooperation with Pakistan for providing opportunities for negotiation with the opposition.

Karzai also told members of the peace council that he was in favor of changing the panels composition to include more individuals who might be able to bridge the divide between the insurgents and the government. Tribal leaders, religious figures and clerics also should be given more opportunity to assist with the peace process, Karzai told them.

___

Khan reported from Karachi, Pakistan. Associated Press writers Sebastian Abbot in Islamabad and Lolita Baldor in Washington contributed to this report.

NATO says Pakistan resumes some cooperation by preventing Afghanistan border incident - The Washington Post


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## F.O.X

888jamie888 said:


> Ever thought about it from the other way around? Have you any idea what is coming towards you??



Oh Yes we do , We have been dealing with it for past 10 years , we lost more then 35,000 lives due it .
you on the other hand have been living a sweet dream fed to you by CNN,BBC , NYT & other news sources , you have not even 5% idea of what the true ground realities are .

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## Safriz

This indicates the Pakistan army is very angry..They are the ones who lost their comrades...No matter what the politicians say..It wont be the same for NATO anymore.


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## Devil Soul

as per ISPR there was no clash between PA & NATO


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> A location identified as a source of unfriendly fire will be targeted in such a way that a radius of several hundred feet around it is instantly annihilated. It doesn't matter if 2 or 20 or 200 targets fire back, sit, sleep or run. They will be killed. SOP.


Pakistan's report clearly indicates that there was no 'fire' from either the posts or the immediate areas.

Any gunfire/artillery from the vicinity of the posts would have also raised the alarm at the Pakistani posts, which would appear to indicate the 'unofficial NATO version' of 'taking fire', right before calling for air strikes, in that particular area, is completely false.


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## Adnan Faruqi

Leader said:


> just saw people tweeting about another skirmish between NATO forces and PAK army.
> 
> what do these NATO monkeys want? WWIII ?



??????????

I think its the skirmish news ur talking about.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...preventing-afghanistan-borde.html#post2343904


----------



## Don Jaguar

888jamie888 said:


> Ever thought about it from the other way around? Have you any idea what is coming towards you??



Yes we know what is coming to us and we are very afraid of it!!!


----------



## Jango

safriz said:


> wrong...its the shortage of booze thats making them mad



aye , hand me some rum mate!

Sorry cap'an , it's been gobbled up by the truck drivers!


----------



## Wounded-Monk

What the F is going on..... ???


----------



## Karachihunk

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Mind your language Mister ... and behave yourself ... or see your way out of here ... Post Reported



What is wrong in it ? Do let me know, i will also report it.

---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

Nothing gonna change.We need dollars, that's it..Shower $$$ on us and we will give up everything.


----------



## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistan's report clearly indicates that there was no 'fire' from either the posts or the immediate areas.
> 
> Any gunfire/artillery from the vicinity of the posts would have also raised the alarm at the Pakistani posts, which would appear to indicate the 'unofficial NATO version' of 'taking fire', right before calling for air strikes, in that particular area, is completely false.



It is premature to say that at present, as the final NATO is still awaited, Sir.

Even if alarm is assumed to have been raised by fire in the vicinity, and not directly from the post, the response would have been pretty instantaneous, with tragic blue on blue results. PA personnel can then be rightly seen as allowing such close infiltration to occur "while they were sleeping". However, that is still not clear, so please regard that as speculation at this point, nothing more.

I mean no disrespect to the fallen soldiers, please let me make it clear yet again.


----------



## Imran Khan

Devil Soul said:


> as per ISPR there was no clash between PA & NATO



kiyani don't want clash simply its disturb his chain smoking


----------



## W.11

888jamie888 said:


> Ever thought about it from the other way around? Have you any idea what is coming towards you??



a nato guy who's life line depends on pakistan and is sorrounded byb enemies(pakistan, iran, china, central asia/russia, talibans etc) doesnt talk like that museum boy


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The disingenuity lies with those officers of the Pakistan Army/ISI who reported all that unverified information to the press to fan flames, not me, and all those on PDF and the media that propagated it.
> 
> All the backtracking that will now happen will not discomfort me at all, but you. I need not say anything after the Pakistani Defence minister announced that supply routes will open after a suitable statement from NATO.
> 
> I rest my case.


The individuals that might have reported the initial information to the media could have done it out of being misinformed. The official PA/ISPR version has remained consistent the entire time.

You on the other hand continue to push a lie, that the PA/ISPR have backtracked/changed their account, when they have clearly not done so. You cannot claim 'ignorance' or being 'misinformed'.

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## Jango

Asim Aquil said:


> Exaggeration. This is what they should do, but will never.
> 
> This should be an eviction, but its been an eviction notice. Lots of time till Dec. 11, time to do the infamous Pakistani leadership U-Turn.



Although the noises coming out this time are different, I do expect some stance to be taken.

The NATO and US officials are saying that Shamsi airbase evacuation would not affect the drone operations much, so definitely there could be something.

Notification has been sent to relevant parties to clear the base by Dec 11.


----------



## regular

Yes! the US/NATO has showed their true evil face even to our army too now......


----------



## Imran Khan

Machoman said:


> "Sabar ka phal mitha hota hai" aur Pakistan sirf sabar pay sabar kiya ja raha hai.....when this sabar over prepare for fun guys....



phal had se ziada pak jay to GAL jata hai dear


----------



## Mercenary

Mav3rick said:


> It was an accident when they attacked Pakistani Soldiers in uniforms sitting in marked and informed posts? Dude, how I would love to see a Pakistani accident that murders 48 of your soldiers anywhere in the world......and we would even apologise for our 'mistake'!
> 
> By the way, the attack continued for another 90 minutes after the US was informed that it was attacking a Pakistani Army post. Perhaps that, too, was an accident.



The Attack happened in the middle of the night.

Night Vision Cameras cannot tell what kind of uniforms somone is wearing. And besides, the Apaches fired their Hell Fire Missiles 2-3 Miles away from the Posts.

It was the Afghan Commandos and their incompetence who called in these air strikes.

I think blame should be directed at them.


----------



## Adnan Faruqi

safriz said:


> This indicates the Pakistan army is very angry..They are the ones who lost their comrades...No matter what the politicians say..It wont be the same for NATO anymore.



I have started thread on 11:28 PM 

And you have posted ur views on 11:29 PM

It must have taken some time in responding and you have read this lengthy news report in a 1 minute   and provided ur valuable judgement????????

Plz, be mature.

Read it before posting.

---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 PM ----------




regular said:


> Yes! the US/NATO has showed their true evil face even to our army too now......



The satan USA is well known to the world long before.

Chalo agar if you have recognized its true face then what are u planning to do with them????????


----------



## Imran Khan

Adnan Faruqi said:


> I have started thread on 11:28 PM
> 
> And you have posted ur views on 11:29 PM
> 
> It must have taken some time in responding and you have read this lengthy news report in a 1 minute   and provided ur valuable judgement????????
> 
> Plz, be mature.
> 
> Read it before posting.



simply we don't give damn to reports now  hum ab kuch nhi sunna chahty

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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Premature to say that, as the final NATO is still awaited, Sir.



Why do you prefer to believe the NATO more than the DG ISPR and DGMO?

---------- Post added at 11:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------




Mercenary said:


> The Attack happened in the middle of the night.
> 
> Night Vision Cameras cannot tell what kind of uniforms somone is wearing. And besides, the Apaches fired their Hell Fire Missiles 2-3 Miles away from the Posts.
> 
> It was the Afghan Commandos and their incompetence who called in these air strikes.
> 
> I think blame should be directed at them.



Yeah, the NATO goes scotch free eh?

There is always identification of the target by the WSO, and always the mission plan gets fed into the computer of the heli. Really strange that they could not identify friend( supposed friend) from foe.


----------



## Karachihunk

Nothing gonna change..Give us some dollars..Everything will be fine.

---------- Post added at 11:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------




KarachiPunk said:


> a nato guy who's life line depends on pakistan and is sorrounded byb enemies(pakistan, iran, china, central asia/russia, talibans etc) doesnt talk like that museum boy



You keep on changing your statements like a kid change his diapers.Stick to your statement man.


----------



## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Why do you prefer to believe the NATO more than the DG ISPR and DGMO?



both are lairs what difference ? ISPR lose creditability many times in 10 years just leave it please


----------



## Don Jaguar

I posted this news before you admin bro. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/143856-unprovoked-dgmo-gives-details-aerial-assault.html

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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> Why do you prefer to believe the NATO more than the DG ISPR and DGMO?[............



I do not blindly believe _anybody_, NATO and DG ISPR and DGMO or not.


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## soul hacker

NATO is getting mad because of shortage of....


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## Mercenary

iPhone said:


> I think you just woke up and learned of the attack. There's a lot of detail that have come out and available in the thread. It's not as black and white as you just made it that hey, NATO made a mistake while conducting an opp.
> 
> The attack continued for more than two hours. On a marked and highly visible post high on top of a hill. Pak soldiers identified themselves during the course of the attack.
> 
> I suggest you go through the thread a little, and read at least few posts by professional members before coming to such a simplistic conclusion.



You are conflating two things.

The Afghan Commandos attacked the Pakistani outposts with small arms fire for over 1 hour. The Pak soliders might have identified themselves to those Commandos.

The Afghans then called in Air Support in which NATO sent in two Apache Gunships who fired the hell fire missiles at the outposts and the attack was over in a matter of minutes.

Can you please explain why it took Apache Gunships 2 hours to take out two outposts when these same Apaches knocked out Saddam's Radars in the opening phase of the Gulf War in less than 2 minutes. The answer is, it didn't.

As for Professional Members, buddy I am throughlly knowledgable in these matters. I have written the Military history of Pakistan, Pakistan Army, Special Serive Group, Special Service Group Navy, ISI, etc. articles on wikipedia.


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## Jango

Imran Khan said:


> both are lairs what difference ? ISPR lose creditability many times in 10 years just leave it please



But when the version of the story has been presented by the PA, then why repeatedly say 'wait for NATO'?

It is not like they are going to admit that it was a big blunder. They haven't even apologized openly from what I have heard.

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> I do not blindly believe _anybody_, NATO and DG ISPR and DGMO or not.



neither do most of us.

Blind patriotism is not a good thing to have.

But, why do you refuse to believe the Pakistani version of the story?


----------



## Mercenary

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah, the NATO goes scotch free eh?
> 
> There is always identification of the target by the WSO, and always the mission plan gets fed into the computer of the heli. Really strange that they could not identify friend( supposed friend) from foe.



Absolutley not scotch free. There needs to be a through investigation as to what exactly happened.

But how does it serves NATO interests to on purpose knock out Pakistani outposts and aggrivate the already strained relations with Pakistan?

Cool down and think with a rational mind. I know passions are running high.


----------



## Don Jaguar

VCheng said:


> I do not blindly believe _anybody_, NATO and DG ISPR and DGMO or not.



And U.S government also.


----------



## wmdisinfo

ISPR AND DGMO should be believed because its their own troops who got killed and injured and they will never lie on this one because if they lie about it they can hide it from us but they cant hide it from those who were injured and those who listened in to communications and relayed the messeges between and after the attack and lie here and *risk ur army being divided into factions* because the severity of the attack.FORGET ABOUT IT THAT ISPR OR DGMO WILL LIE ON THIS ONE


----------



## somebozo

If Pakistan has democracy then these NATO pigs will not survive a day!

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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> .......................
> neither do most of us.
> 
> Blind patriotism is not a good thing to have.
> 
> But, why do you refuse to believe the Pakistani version of the story?



I agree that blindness in anything, including patriotism, is not good.

I am merely waiting for both sides of the story to be established before evaluating which is more believable. That's all.

---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------




Don Jaguar said:


> And U.S government also.



Correct, I do not blindly believe them EITHER.


----------



## Mercenary

LeGenD said:


> Dude, seriously?
> 
> This was a calculated attack by NATO to disloge Pakistani forces from the region. There is no excuse this time.



Are you saying that Pakistan cannot rebuild those outposts once they have been taken out?

I don't understand your rational thought here.

So what you are saying is this.

NATO launches a deliberate attack to take out 2 Pakistani outposts in which they hope TTP and other allies will easily gain access to Pakistan to continue to fight Pakistan and conduct terrorist activities.

So is NATO stupid in not knowing the kind of reaction that Pakistan will have to this? Or the fact that Pakistan cannot rebuild those two outposts again.

Your statement makes absolutley no sense.


----------



## Jango

Mercenary said:


> Absolutley not scotch free. There needs to be a through investigation as to what exactly happened.
> 
> But how does it serves NATO interests to on purpose knock out Pakistani outposts and aggrivate the already strained relations with Pakistan?
> 
> Cool down and think with a rational mind. I know passions are running high.



Since the DGMO( a very high ranking official within the PA) and DG ISPR( the mouthpiece of the PA) have said that it was intentional, so it definitely means that they have some reason to say so.

Now, neither I nor you nor anybody else on this forum is privy to those details, so my bet is , that the US administration has made no secret of their liking to go across the border in the pursuit of militants.

So, to check the response , they might have gone across the border, not originally planned to shoot down this many soldiers. They went about for some time, had a little hover and all. But then, they might have started to shoot around a little bit, they saw the PA post, shot around it for sometime, and they got the response in terms of small arms fire and other munition being spent. That is when things might have got a little heated. Then a fire fight might have broken out, and the casualties took place.

This is just one of the possible reasons NATO might have done it on purpose.


----------



## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The individuals that might have reported the initial information to the media could have done it out of being misinformed. The official PA/ISPR version has remained consistent the entire time.
> 
> You on the other hand continue to push a lie, that the PA/ISPR have backtracked/changed their account, when they have clearly not done so. You cannot claim 'ignorance' or being 'misinformed'.



Oh the real backtracking is yet to come Sir. This is just the beginning.

Once supply routes and drone attacks resume, the reality will carry on. This is just a temporary phase, being carefully managed by both sides.


----------



## junaid1

VCheng said:


> All I said was it CAN be an error for a distance of only 200-300 meters and not 2.5 km; it may turn out that the posts were rightly or wrongly thought to be the source of unfriendly fire.
> 
> There is much to be established yet.



i guess u r NATO spokesman's  R u Pakistani


----------



## wmdisinfo

THIS IS MERE A PROPAGANDA TO DEFAME THE ARMY INFRONT OF PEOPLE EYES TRYING TO GIVE US A HIDDEN MESSAGE THAT DONT BELIEVE THE ARMY THEY ARE WITH THE USA.I WILL SHOW U THE REALITY OF ALL THIS CNN BBC AND ALL THAT

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## Leader

somebozo said:


> We should move some air defense SAM to the border..



pa ji chief di bolti band aye, he says we cannot do anything about it... we are helpless.


----------



## unicorn

U.S led investigators have been given until Dec. 23 to probe the attacks.Enough time for western media to cook the story. 
Pakistan to Boycott Bonn

As this article suggest which is published in CBS.



> *NATO forces may have been lured into attacking friendly Pakistani border posts in a calculated maneuver by the Taliban, according to preliminary U.S. military reports on the deadliest friendly fire incident with Pakistan since the Afghanistan war began.*



U.S. suspects forces lured into Pakistan raid - CBS News


----------



## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> .................
> 
> This is just one of the possible reasons NATO might have done it on purpose.



Why speculate? There is no point in that at this time.


----------



## Mercenary

nuclearpak said:


> Since the DGMO( a very high ranking official within the PA) and DG ISPR( the mouthpiece of the PA) have said that it was intentional, so it definitely means that they have some reason to say so.
> 
> Now, neither I nor you nor anybody else on this forum is privy to those details, so my bet is , that the US administration has made no secret of their liking to go across the border in the pursuit of militants.
> 
> So, to check the response , they might have gone across the border, not originally planned to shoot down this many soldiers. They went about for some time, had a little hover and all. But then, they might have started to shoot around a little bit, they saw the PA post, shot around it for sometime, and they got the response in terms of small arms fire and other munition being spent. That is when things might have got a little heated. Then a fire fight might have broken out, and the casualties took place.
> 
> This is just one of the possible reasons NATO might have done it on purpose.



First of all I don't trust the DGMO and DG ISPR at all. I don't care how highly ranked they are. These same guys claimed that the Drone Strikes when they started were Pakistani Aircrafts dropping bombs and not US drones when the opening salvo of the drone war took out Taliban Warlord Nek Muhammed in 2004.

As for NATO, it does not serve their interest one iota to kill Pakistani soldiers.

What you are doing is assuming what happened and trying to give it a spin to suit your version. In other words, you don't know what happened at all.

And besides your story makes absolutely no sense. You are saying it took Apache Gunships 2 hours to knock out 2 posts. Apache Gunships always engage the enemy from a distance of atleast 2-3 miles. Apache Gunships are vulnerable to small arms fire and thats why they keep their distance. And those two outposts can be knocked out by two hellfire missiles in a matter of seconds.


----------



## Jango

VCheng said:


> Oh the real backtracking is yet to come Sir. This is just the beginning.
> 
> Once supply routes and drone attacks resume, the reality will carry on. This is just a temporary phase, being carefully managed by both sides.



What about them?

The stance on the supply routes and drones etc was not taken by the army were they, they were the result of your democratically elected , free and fair government!

Not the Army. So, still, I don't see any back tracking.

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## Uchiha

^^ reminds me of harry potter
BUTTER BEER!


----------



## Jango

Mercenary said:


> First of all I don't trust the DGMO and DG ISPR at all. I don't care how highly ranked they are. These same guys claimed that the Drone Strikes when they started were Pakistani Aircrafts dropping bombs and not US drones when the opening salvo of the drone war took out Taliban Warlord Nek Muhammed in 2004.
> 
> As for NATO, it does not serve their interest one iota to kill Pakistani soldiers.
> 
> What you are doing is assuming what happened and trying to give it a spin to suit your version. In other words, you don't know what happened at all.
> 
> And besides your story makes absolutely no sense. You are saying it took Apache Gunships 2 hours to knock out 2 posts. Apache Gunships always engage the enemy from a distance of atleast 2-3 miles. Apache Gunships are vulnerable to small arms fire and thats why they keep their distance. And those two outposts can be knocked out by two hellfire missiles in a matter of seconds.



I suggest you see the video of the aftermath, and see the amount of area that was destroyed.

As I said, they did not shoot straight away, they would have hovered around and flew for sometime, as a injured Pakistani soldier says, that the helis flew for about an hour, and dropped flares after about half hour.

And if you do not believe the statements of DGMO at this time, well, what can I say?

Off to a good sleep now!


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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> What about them?
> 
> The stance on the supply routes and drones etc was not taken by the army were they, they were the result of your democratically elected , free and fair government!
> 
> Not the Army. So, still, I don't see any back tracking.



Do you see the irony? You are thinking in terms of the Army and the "bloody civilians" while I am looking at *PAKISTAN*. You tell me who speaks for PAKISTAN? Whatever happened to _"sab sey pehlay Pakistan"_?


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

VCheng said:


> I am no t making any argument other than to WAIT for the NATO report. Then we can discuss with more information.



Come back to this topic once report of your NATO available..till then dont repeat same non sense. you should be ashmed of yourself if you have some love left in your heart for pakistani..when their peoples get killed its terrorism and when they kill others then its mistakes and you hear nothing but pathethic excuses


----------



## Peregrine

Imran Khan said:


> kiyani don't want clash simply its disturb his chain smoking


You got that right! If it wasn't for Kiyani being such a wuss, NATO wouldn't have dared to kill our troops.


----------



## 53fd

r3alist said:


> are you normally giving credence to unknown sources?



Mr Cheng says he is waiting for the official NATO report to come out, yet he doesn't have any qualms in quoting unnamed officials with the 2.5kms claim to allege fabrications on Pakistan's side. And then he claims to be 'impartial & fair'. 

Unnamed officials have no weight in my eyes. This is the first Pakistani official report, & the PA/ISPR never claimed that the posts were 2.5kms into Pakistani territory. The Pakistani account has been consistent throughout. The unnamed officials were speaking from a personal capacity, & not representing the ISPR/PA.

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## mjnaushad

Murderer will investigate how he murdered..... And then people will say see what the investigation is saying... It was a mistake.. If this is the investigation people want us to rely on then 9/11 investigation must be done by Al-Qaeda and Taliban

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## VCheng

Raja.Pakistani said:


> Come back to this topic once report of your NATO available.................



Oh I will be here alright.


----------



## Imran Khan

Peregrine said:


> You got that right! If it wasn't for Kiyani being such a wuss, NATO wouldn't have dared to kill our troops.




problem is we respect generals like lords and we even don't think until damage done .kiyani is failed general but good thing he never talk and we know nothing what he is cooking . we need aggressive minds these days and he is cold like ice .

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Mr Cheng says he is waiting for the official NATO report to come out, ..............



.. because that is the correctly impartial thing to do at this point in time.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Do you see the irony? You are thinking in terms of the Army and the "bloody civilians" while I am looking at *PAKISTAN*. You tell me who speaks for PAKISTAN? Whatever happened to _"sab sey pehlay Pakistan"_?



The attack was an unacceptable violation of Pakistan's sovereignty, & there were no "bloody civilians" being killed here, but Pakistani troops themselves. If it were not for "sab se pehlay Pakistan", these troops would have never given up their lives defending this country. Your bias against the Army is showing its ugly head. The fact of the matter is that the world has made it clear that NATO's actions were unacceptable. The solution of this unprovoked & foolhardy aggression by NATO Forces is not to go on war against them as you want them to, that will destroy the region & will do no good for anyone, this situation will be dealt through the appropriate channels, & NATO will have to suffer the consequences of its actions through these appropriate channels.

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> ..........The solution ............. is not to go on war against them.............. that will destroy the region & will do no good for anyone, this situation will be dealt through the appropriate channels, ................



Only this part is correct enough that I can agree with it.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

PhotoBlog - Pakistan releases first images of border posts attacked by NATO


----------



## Raja.Pakistani

VCheng said:


> Oh I will be here alright.



yea yea i am sure you will be here defending their excuses even if they are lame.


----------



## 53fd

VCheng said:


> .. because that is the correctly impartial thing to do at this point in time.



Then why are you giving credence to unnamed officials (who were speaking from a personal capacity), claiming they represent Pakistan's version of the story? Or are you just demonstrating your 'impartiality' once again? You can repeat the words 'fair & impartial' as many times you like, or have them as your avatar, but you clearly don't demonstrate any of it throughout your posts.

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## Pukhtoon

Amid rising anger, Pakistan's military has released a set of images which it says show the remote border posts attacked by NATO helicopters and fighter jets on Saturday in an incident that has soured relations between Pakistan and the United States. Reuters reports:




PhotoBlog - Pakistan releases first images of border posts attacked by NATO


----------



## Luftwaffe

Latest from Pentagon: 
- Attacks were not deliberate, stance and statements from Pakistani side are not correct, pentagon.
- Nobody knows the real details of these attacks, pentagon.
- There are no secret talks-meetings taking place between Pakistan and US, pentagon.
- No comments on vacating Shamsi Air Base, pentagon. 
- We have not stopped munition-weapons sales to Pakistan, pentagon.


----------



## 53fd

Mr Cheng, in the spirit of referring to official sources, would you accept China's & Russia's official positions that the NATO's attack was an unacceptable breach of Pakistan's sovereignty?

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## mjnaushad

Luftwaffe said:


> Latest from Pentagon:
> - Attacks were not deliberate, stance and statements from Pakistani side are not correct, pentagon.
> - Nobody knows the real details of these attacks, pentagon.
> - There are no secret talks-meetings taking place between Pakistan and US, pentagon.
> - No comments on vacating Shamsi Air Base, pentagon.
> - We have not stopped munition-weapons sales to Pakistan, pentagon.
> 
> So according to NATO-US, they don't know anything any details yet of the attacks, this is suspicious pilots flew from closest air base crossed into Pakistan targets Pakistani Posts on the border and goes back and return to finish off, return to air base and briefs and de-briefs and NATO-US does not know, *why would it take 25 days to investigate* the crew and CO is in Afghanistan.



You need time and careful planning ..... Need to see every angle... if you want to twist the facts....

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Then why are you giving credence to unnamed officials (who were speaking from a personal capacity), claiming they represent Pakistan's version of the story? Or are you just demonstrating your 'impartiality' once again? You can repeat the words 'fair & impartial' as many times you like, or have them as your avatar, but you clearly don't demonstrate any of it throughout your posts.



The FACT remains that _everybody _blinded by emotionalism and vested patriotism was screaming "bloody murder of sleeping soldiers 2.5 km inside Pakistan" including _military officers (?intentionally) leaking information to the press_, and that has shown to be WRONG.

My clarity of thought is above all of this, and shall remain so.

Watch next as the issue of whether the incident was "unprovoked" or not is also settled.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> you want us to start a WAR with the US? if they were indian assets, you would have seen a different reaction!



well if they were indian, they'd be fireworks.......in times of war, PAF already demonstrated that our skies are unsafe for indian invaders. Many indian pilots who survived and are still miraculously breathing today can attest to that. 

back on point -- quite frankly, once NATO aircrafts are inside of our territory and inflicting harm (on soldiers especially) that in itself is already an act of war because they knew what they were doing......this is something between the forces on both sides; I personally think that as soon as the rounds went off, those aircrafts should have been shot down. No questions asked.

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## karan.1970

r3alist said:


> afghan officials have said that pakistan fired first, pakistan is contradicting this.
> 
> plus the known co ordinates/position, plus the ignored communications, plus the uniformed personnel, plus the 2 hour kill mission.



Yeah.. but 2.5 km was a big factor thrown about all over the place.. People like Agno, Bilal, Aryan were continuously questioning on how Pakistan could fire on Afghans/NATO forces since there is no gun that could fire 2.5 km in the given terrain. With 300 yards point, there is an altogether different angle to this now.. The initiation of firing by Pakistani forces is no longer an impossibility

---------- Post added at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 AM ----------




mjnaushad said:


> I think After getting fire you fire on the possible incursion points to keep it suppressed......



And here you may have the reason why the heli returned..


----------



## Birbal

\

He doesn't mince his words.


----------



## mjnaushad

karan.1970 said:


> Yeah.. but 2.5 km was a big factor thrown about all over the place.. People like Agno, Bilal, Aryan were continuously questioning on how Pakistan could fire on Afghans/NATO forces since there is no gun that could fire 2.5 km in the given terrain. With 300 yards point, there is an altogether different angle to this now.. *The initiation of firing by Pakistani forces is no longer an impossibility*
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *And here you may have the reason why the heli returned.*.



Yup.... They were firing and sleeping at the same time......

And the point remains .... why were they here at the first place.....


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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Mr Cheng, in the spirit of referring to official sources, would you accept China's & Russia's official positions that the NATO's attack was an unacceptable breach of Pakistan's sovereignty?



China and Russia are saying and doing what serves their respective national interest best. 

If China is so convinced it was an attack on Pakistan, are they regarding this as an attack on China, as they said they would?

Actions speak louder than words.


----------



## karan.1970

nuclearpak said:


> Who said that mortars were used to attack the helis?
> 
> 
> .


 

From the OP



> He went into comprehensive detail about the sequence of events known so far, explaining that a check post code-named Volcano first came under attack at around 15 to 30 minutes after midnight. *A nearby check post, code-named Boulder, responded with 12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons and mortars after the Volcano check post came under attack from gunship helicopters.*


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## Raja.Pakistani

If these soldiers were NATO soldiers, you get detail report within few hours but american double standards


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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> .. because that is the correctly impartial thing to do at this point in time.



yup i agree- quoting unknown Pakistani officials and comparing them with the official ISPR statement and calling it official backtracking- is the correct and impartial thing to do for you-


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> The FACT remains that _everybody _blinded by emotionalism and vested patriotism was screaming "bloody murder of sleeping soldiers 2.5 km inside Pakistan" including _*military officers* (?intentionally) leaking information to the press_, and that has shown to be WRONG.



Unnamed military officers who were speaking on behalf of no one, on their personal capacity, not representing the official position of PA/ISPR. Please get this through your head. Can you show me where the ISPR claimed the posts were 2.5kms from the border? The Pakistani position in clear, & has been consistent throughout.

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## mjnaushad

VCheng said:


> *China and Russia are saying and doing what serves their respective national interest best.
> *
> If China is so convinced it was an attack on Pakistan, are they regarding this as an attack on China, as they said they would?
> 
> Actions speak louder than words.



And NATO and US will say what servers their national interest....... NOT THE TRUTH....

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Unnamed military officers who were speaking on behalf of no one, on their personal capacity, not representing the official position of PA/ISPR. Please get this through your head. Can you show me where the ISPR claimed the posts were 2.5kms from the border? The Pakistani position in clear, & has been consistent throughout.



And what will you do when the issue of "provocation" is settled too?


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## Tangent

Although it is a sad incident...with so many loss of life..
But it seems pakistan wants to "Milk" US on the pretext of this incident. More armaments ??
There has been more loss of life by the drone attack...but no uproar.

Looks life the reaction to the incident is being fueled artificially.
pakistan says 'sorry' not enough..but has it ( government or army) has come out of what it wants more to the 'sorry'.


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## Luftwaffe

mjnaushad said:


> You need time and careful planning ..... Need to see every angle... if you want to twist the facts....



*Nobody knows the real details of these attacks, pentagon.* Read it? no immediate statements-information from boss in control of the air base. Surely NATO-US must already have seen the on board video records of those gunships, Co/Pilots must have already recorded their version and statements and it take very little time for information to reach pentagon every minute. And then you hear pentagon doesn't know anything!, It does not take a month to investigate.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> China and Russia are saying and doing what serves their respective national interest best.
> 
> If China is so convinced it was an attack on Pakistan, are they regarding this as an attack on China, as they said they would?
> 
> Actions speak louder than words.



Similarly, the statements of the NATO/Afghanistan/US are what serves their respective interests as well. Every nation says things out of their geopolitical strategic interests. But what happened that day was a violation of any agreement NATO & Pakistan have had on dealing with terrorists in the region. And this is reflected by the official statements coming out other nations claiming this was an breach of Pakistan's sovereignty, & inexcusable & unacceptable.

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## JonAsad

Tangent said:


> Although it is a sad incident...with so many loss of life..
> But it seems pakistan wants to "Milk" US on the pretext of this incident. More armaments ??
> There has been more loss of life by the drone attack...but no uproar.
> 
> Looks life the reaction to the incident is being fueled artificially.
> pakistan says 'sorry' not enough..but has it ( government or army) has come out of what it wants more to the 'sorry'.



The "milking US" terminology i am reading alot in some ratshit forum- do you came from that bharat ratshit forum with their theory?-

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> And what will you do when the issue of "provocation" is settled too?



Where is the 'too' coming from? No 'settling' has taken place in the official ISPR/Pakistani position, it has been consistent throughout.

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## 888jamie888

Champ said:


> Oh Yes we do , We have been dealing with it for past 10 years , we lost more then 35,000 lives due it .
> you on the other hand have been living a sweet dream fed to you by CNN,BBC , NYT & other news sources , you have not even 5% idea of what the true ground realities are .


Yep, but if there was a war, I'm sure things would get a lot worse for you rather than me.


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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Where is the 'too' coming from? No 'settling' has taken place in the official ISPR/Pakistani position, it has been consistent throughout.



Let's wait and see, shall we? 23rd December is not all that far away, is it?


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## Tangent

JonAsad said:


> The "milking US" terminology i am reading alot in some ratshit forum- do you came from that bharat ratshit forum with their theory?-


So..U agree that it is the case so...? 
What is in the list ?


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Posts based on media reports - I believe the official PA account has remained consistent.



I think 300 yards figure 1st came out late evening and was rubbished quite a bit.. Most of the discussion y'day was based on how 2.5 km is too large a distance to cover by mistake and how Pakistan couldnt have fired first since no gun would hit that large a distance




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It is a 'grave crime' since the posts themselves are clearly demarcated, and 2.5KM is too large a distance to 'cross accidentally'.





AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And this does not even take into account the fact that if the base was 2.5KM inside Pakistani territory, then NATO forces would have to have been inside Pakistani territory to be within the range of gunfire from the Pakistani base, which means that even if Pakistani forces fired first, they were justified in doing so against forces violating Pakistani territory.
> 
> Therefore, no matter what the excuse, NATO is completely at fault here.






bilalhaider said:


> There has been no accusation made by anyone that Pakistani soldiers were giving covering fire for the Taliban to infiltrate into Afghanistan. The area was free from militants from the Pakistani side. There has been no suggestion made of this scenario. And the first scenario (hot pursuit) talks about the militants on the Afghan side of the border, not Pakistan. The second scenario (defense) talks about firing from the Pakistani side, but it is not possible that firing from 2.5km inside Pakistan could hit Afghanistan.





AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> It has already been argued in the past several pages - the 'self defence under Pakistani fire' claim does not add up given the location of the base as reported in some accounts (2.5km inside Pakistan), claims of 'gunfire' (which would not be possible from 2.5KM away), claims of 'Commandos on the ground calling in air strikes', which would indicate incompetence on the part of NATO since the coordinates of the base were known to NATO and the proper procedure should have been contacting Pakistani authorities to clear confusion if gunfire was indeed coming from the Pakistani base.
> 
> There is nothing so far that suggests NATO was not completely at fault here.



I could go on and on, but I guess you get the gist

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## JonAsad

Tangent said:


> So..U agree that it is the case so...?
> What is in the list ?



The case and list- from where they came from?-


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## SEAL

Imran Khan said:


> problem is we respect generals like lords and we even don't think until damage done .kiyani is failed general but good thing he never talk and we know nothing what he is cooking . we need aggressive minds these days and he is cold like ice .


 
Not only Kiyani but dengue air chief also make PAF a laughing stock PAF don't even know whats going on in Shamsi, what they operating.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Let's wait and see, shall we? 23rd December is not all that far away, is it?



So if you want to wait & see what comes out on December 23, why are on this thread (& similar threads) already declaring Pakistan is in the wrong?

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## Luftwaffe

bilalhaider said:


> Where is the 'too' coming from? No 'settling' has taken place in the official ISPR/Pakistani position, it has been consistent throughout.



Personally even though many of us have our reservations and anger at NATO-US, regardless of the Report both sides would insist they are right but everything will be settled in the end.

This is not the right thread but if Pakistan knew things could go ugly in future they shouldn't have mass military purchases from US only to know the side that'll feel the hurt would be Pakistan only; Your F-16s, AH-1, Bells helios All are at stake, all good things comes from US unless Pakistan has another better or equally good provider.


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## VCheng

karan.1970 said:


> I think 300 yards figure 1st came out late evening and was rubbished quite a bit.. Most of the discussion y'day was based on how 2.5 km is too large a distance to cover by mistake and how Pakistan couldnt have fired first since no gun would hit that large a distance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could go on and on, but I guess you get the gist



and yet I am the one who should admit that did not happen!

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Let's wait and see, shall we? 23rd December is not all that far away, is it?



If you are claiming to be 'fair & impartial' here, then you have to give official versions coming from all sides equal weight. But it's funny that you are waiting for December 23 to hear NATO's official statement, as if its set in stone, whereas the official statements coming out of Russia, China, the OIC, Turkey etc have no credence or value/meaning. You have already decided they are wrong, & NATO is right. Another display of your impartiality?

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> So if you want to wait & see what comes out on December 23, why are on this thread (& similar threads) already declaring Pakistan is in the wrong?



I have not declared anybody right or wrong; all I have said is that some backtracking is likely to occur. It has already begun, with the posts moving nearly 2 km towards the border.


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## JonAsad

karan.1970 said:


> I think 300 yards figure 1st came out late evening and was rubbished quite a bit.. Most of the discussion y'day was based on how 2.5 km is too large a distance to cover by mistake and how Pakistan couldnt have fired first since no gun would hit that large a distance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could go on and on, but I guess you get the gist



I hope you realized- Till today before the official ISPR accounts of the incident- we all were talking on mere speculations?-
Your point will be valid if still some one continue to argue with this 2.5KM distance-
The official statement is out- that puts an end to all the speculations- 

and MR VCheng compared the official statement of ISPR with unofficial unknown speculative estimates of unknown sources from unknown personal and already had declared it "Backtracking"-
So much for the partiality and fair rant he carries-

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## 53fd

JonAsad said:


> I hope you realized- Till today before the official ISPR accounts of the incident- we all were talking on mere speculations?-
> Your point will be valid if still some one continue to argue with this 2.5KM distance-
> The official statement is out- that puts an end to all the speculations-
> 
> and MR VCheng compared the official statement of ISPR with unofficial unknown speculative estimates from unknown personal and already had declared it "Backtracking"-
> So much for the partial and fair rant he carries



Aptly put & well said.


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## LeGenD

VCheng said:


> Let's wait and see, shall we? 23rd December is not all that far away, is it?


Brother, you expect that Americans cannot come up with a concocted story?

They are 'A class' backstabbers.

For this case, I am not convinced that NATO has made a mistake. There is simply no excuse.

Also, early reports are typically not very accurate and can contain errors. Facts come to light with passage of time with proper investigation. 

And Pakistan has released its official report and this has been done after proper investigation from the associated authorities.

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## pakdefender

888jamie888 said:


> Yep, but if there was a war, I'm sure things would get a lot worse for you rather than me.



dont count on that , you are within striking distance of our long range assets


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## Tangent

JonAsad said:


> The case and list- from where they came from?-



Simply put..
When Drones have killed 16+ innocent people in single strike many a times..there was no uproar.
Now, when 28 service men died in a 'battle' ( they fired in retaliation / self defence , which could have brought helicopter down and cause casulity on the other side- luckily for pakistan it didn't happen) there is a reaction more than at teh times of Drone attacks.
pakistan doesn't accept NATO's 'sorry'. So the question is what will they accept?
Has GOP or better PA has come with anything? Not yet...
...and the public reaction is growing (not being calmed by PA as was done on other occasion...including OBL raid).
What is the wish list of PA ..to calm or forget this incident. Waht else they want apart from 'sorry' ?
End WOT? Vaccate Af? Pardon Haqquani ? Nuclear deal........list is open to anybody's guess.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> I have not declared anybody right or wrong; all I have said is that some backtracking is likely to occur. It has already begun, with the posts moving nearly 2 km towards the border.



When did the ISPR declare the posts were 2.5kms from the border?

You have already declared that Pakistan will be backtracking on its statements, meaning Pakistan is in the wrong.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

THE DISTANCE IS IRRELEVANT IF THE GRID COORDS WERE ALREADY GIVEN TO NATO

they've known about that position for ages now; it didnt just come out of the blue.


you also keep forgetting that contact had already been established to report the blue-on-blue engagement; and yet they found themselves under attack.


snap back to reality dude

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## VCheng

LeGenD said:


> ...........
> 
> For this case, I am not convinced that NATO has made a mistake. There is simply no excuse.



I respect your opinion, but again, please wait for the NATO report too before refining it, if and when needed.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> I respect your opinion, but again, please wait for the NATO report too before refining it, if and when needed.



When the world is saying the NATO's attack was an inexcusable breach of Pakistan's sovereignty, are you still being impartial when you say this?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Oh the real backtracking is yet to come Sir. This is just the beginning.
> 
> Once supply routes and drone attacks resume, the reality will carry on. This is just a temporary phase, being carefully managed by both sides.


Please stop digressing from the subject and the question - do you or do you not have official reports from the ISPR/PA offering contradictory accounts on the location of the posts, no initial fire from Pakistani troops etc ?

BTW, rather interesting to note that your 'wait for the NATO report, establish the facts' argument does not prevent you from offering categorical statements rejecting the Pakistani version of events and supporting that of NATO - yet more evidence that your so called 'impartiality and objectivity' claims are nothing but baloney.

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## Luftwaffe

somebozo said:


> We should move some air defense SAM to the border..



Did you know US-NATO has the best SEAD those F-18s would wreck havoc. Strong stance should have been adopted from day 1 the first time they breached.


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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> When the world is saying the NATO's attack was an inexcusable breach of Pakistan's sovereignty, are you still being impartial when you say this?



What "world" are you talking about? Russia and China? Who else?


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## Aslan

karan.1970 said:


> Enter the resident racist
> 
> Jab baat mein dum nahin hota tabhi yeh chichori harkate hoti hain



Shah say ziyada shah kay wafadar Baigharat. 

Seriously some people have no shame none what so ever, and still you have the face to call him racist. While u ur self are displaying your brown nose so proudly. Well atleast coming from the likes of you and ur kind i understand. Some others just confuse me.............. Kalay kaway hans banay chalay.


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## pakdefender

Some important notes


* NATO/US are now left with the slow train route that USSR setup during the 80s , apart from being expensive and much longer it goes through Russian territory who has a score to settle with NATO and will get more out of NATO than NATO will get out of using this route , overall adds to the difficulty of supplying NATO troops and keeping them alive!!
* Notice of vacating of Shamsi airbase has been sent and December 11th is the data on which murderers will be removed from Pak Sarzameen
* Pakistan will boycott the Bonn conference which has caused major takleef to that nazi woman who then 'urged' Pakistan to join the conference only to be told that our security is more important for us than that of Afghanistan ( NATO and US in fact since they are occupying that country )
* Latest polls show that 55% americans consider Pakistan to be an enemy , this should be an eye opener about the blood thirsty nature of these animals


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Yeah.. but 2.5 km was a big factor thrown about all over the place.. People like Agno, Bilal, Aryan were continuously questioning on how Pakistan could fire on Afghans/NATO forces since there is no gun that could fire 2.5 km in the given terrain. With 300 yards point, there is an altogether different angle to this now.. The initiation of firing by Pakistani forces is no longer an impossibility


The initiation of fire by Pakistan, infact the initiation of any fire from the vicinity of the post, has been denied officially by Pakistan and is corroborated by the statements of wounded soldiers from the posts.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Please stop digressing from the subject and the question - do you or do you not have official reports from the ISPR/PA offering contradictory accounts on the location of the posts, no initial fire from Pakistani troops etc ?
> 
> BTW, rather interesting to note that your 'wait for the NATO report, establish the facts' argument does not prevent you from offering categorical statements rejecting the Pakistani version of events and supporting that of NATO - yet more evidence that your so called 'impartiality and objectivity' claims are nothing but baloney.



We shall soon see who will be eating a whole baloney sandwich! 

Like I have said before, we can disagree about certain topics without letting go of politeness or abusing Admin/Mod privileges (I hope).


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## karan.1970

JonAsad said:


> I hope you realized- Till today before the official ISPR accounts of the incident- we all were talking on mere speculations?-
> Your point will be valid if still some one continue to argue with this 2.5KM distance-
> The official statement is out- that puts an end to all the speculations-
> 
> and MR VCheng compared the official statement of ISPR with unofficial unknown speculative estimates from unknown personal and already had declared it "Backtracking"-
> So much for the partial and fair rant he carries-



So leaving the terminology of backtracking aside, the key here is what you said in your 1st line.. Till Yesterday members on the forum went to and fro for 150+ pages without a single official statement from either Pakistan or NATO. As a matter of fact I remember a post from Agno that the facts have already been released by DG ISPR (this is the time we all were basing everything on 2.5 Km distance). Today ISPR has come out with official statement and a bunch of assumptions have gone for a toss..Who is to say that another bunch wont be tossed into the winds once NATO comes out with their side of the story and Pakistan govt does not dispute that..

And all I have been saying is that unless we get to hear the official versions from both sides, we are just shooting from our hip in the dark


PS: I would have said VCheng and I have been saying in the line above, but wouldnt want to further damage his standing by clubbing him with a Bharti

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## LeGenD

VCheng said:


> I respect your opinion, but again, please wait for the NATO report too before refining it, if and when needed.


Remember the Raymond Davis fiasco? 

As a patriotic Pakistani citizen, I don't give a damn about NATO reports any more. America (under leadership of Obama) has humiliated Pakistan too much in the global scene.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> From the OP


Could have been using 'air-burst' rounds ...


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> What "world" are you talking about? Russia and China? Who else?



Do China & Russia's words have less weight than anyone else's? Turkey also said the same thing btw.


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## karan.1970

Aslan said:


> Shah say ziyada shah kay wafadar Baigharat.
> 
> Seriously some people have no shame none what so ever, and still you have the face to call him racist. While u ur self are displaying your brown nose so proudly. Well atleast coming from the likes of you and ur kind i understand. Some others just confuse me.............. Kalay kaway hans banay chalay.



Dont be a moron.. Point out a post where I have defended NATO action.. All I have tried to highlight are probable scenarios that could have led to the incident and advocated waiting for official versions from both sides..

PS: and He has used racist terms in his post which he has been for quite some time.. Apparently with the Moderator team's blessings.. Only puts this forum in bad light..


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## 53fd

karan.1970 said:


> So leaving the terminology of backtracking aside, the key here is what you said in your 1st line.. Till Yesterday members on the forum went to and fro for 150+ pages without a single official statement from either Pakistan or NATO. As a matter of fact I remember a post from Agno that the facts have already been released by DG ISPR (this is the time we all were basing everything on 2.5 Km distance). Today ISPR has come out with official statement and a bunch of assumptions have gone for a toss..Who is to say that another bunch wont be tossed into the winds once NATO comes out with their side of the story and Pakistan govt does not dispute that..
> 
> And all I have been saying is that unless we get to hear the official versions from both sides, we are just shooting from our hip in the dark
> 
> 
> PS: I would have said VCheng and I have been saying in the line above, but wouldnt want to further damage his standing by clubbing him with a Bharti



Whatever is happening or being said on this forum has no connection with the ISPR's official version on this incident. The statements coming out of the ISPR have been consistent. Period.

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## Aslan

bilalhaider said:


> Do China & Russia's words have less weight than anyone else's? Turkey also said the same thing btw.



Nopes dont matter. All that matters is that it comes out of the good oll USA. 
God bless USA and no one else.

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## pakdefender

Luftwaffe said:


> Did you know US-NATO has the best SEAD those F-18s would wreck havoc. Strong stance should have been adopted from day 1 the first time they breached.



Those F-18s have to have fuel to fly an they have to have a platfrom to fly from , we can take out both of these links in the chain.

In Iraq they had done qabza on the port and thats where their supplies and fuel was being flown in from , up till now in afghanistan bulk of their fuel had been coming over the Pakistani land route.

There is lot that we can do in retaltiation and we must do so


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> We shall soon see who will be eating a whole baloney sandwich!


When the PA/ISPR retracts its claims that
1. Pakistani forces did not initiate fire
2. Pakistani forces were attacked for 2 hours
3. Pakistani forces contacted NATO but the attack continued for another hour etc.

The you can argue 'backtracking' - inn the meantime, do you or do you not have official reports from ISPR/PA offering contradictory information on the issues mentioned?


> Like I have said before, we can disagree about certain topics without letting go of politeness or abusing Admin/Mod privileges (I hope).


Disagreeing is one thing - lying or propagating incorrect facts, and then refusing to back them up when specifically asked to (provide contradicting ISPR/PA reports on the facts mentioned) is another.

We can agree to disagree, provided you answer the question, or accept that there are no contradictory official statements issued by the PA, and therefore there has been no 'backtracking'. 

If you have any decency, you'll accept your error and wait till your 'predictions' are 'officially fulfilled'.

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## VCheng

LeGenD said:


> .......... America (under leadership of Obama) has humiliated Pakistan too much in the global scene.



WRONG.

Pakistan ney apnay munh per aap kaalak malee hey, aur yeh aaj kee baat nahi.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The initiation of fire by Pakistan, infact the initiation of any fire from the vicinity of the post, has been denied officially by Pakistan and is corroborated by the statements of wounded soldiers from the posts.



Fair point.. But thats only 1 side of the story.. What additional credibility does Pakistan has that its word needs to be believed above the word of the other side.. Pakistan has officially put forward its position. NATO is still to do that and if there are diverging positions, they need to be dissected to see who is lying or is at fault..


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ..............
> 
> If you have any decency, you'll accept your error and wait till your 'predictions' are 'officially fulfilled'.



The same goes for you Sir. I am standing by my opinion.


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## JonAsad

bilalhaider said:


> Whatever is happening or being said on this forum has no connection with the ISPR's official version on this incident. *The statements coming out of the ISPR have been consistent.* Period.


 
exactly and that what should matter-


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The same goes for you Sir. I am standing by my opinion.


Do you still see me arguing that the posts are '2.5KM from the border'? I have accepted the '300M' location based on the official statements from the PA.

You on the other hand continue to parrot the line that the 'PA has backtracked', despite being unable to show us any official PA/ISPR release contradicting itself on this incident.

So, I'll repeat my point:

Disagreeing is one thing - lying or propagating incorrect facts, and then refusing to back them up when specifically asked to (provide contradicting ISPR/PA reports on the facts mentioned) is another.

We can agree to disagree, provided you answer the question, or accept that there are no contradictory official statements issued by the PA, and therefore there has been no 'backtracking'. 

If you have any decency, you'll accept your error and wait till your 'predictions' are 'officially fulfilled'.

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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

Luftwaffe said:


> Did you know US-NATO has the best SEAD those F-18s would wreck havoc. Strong stance should have been adopted from day 1 the first time they breached.


when an iraqi mig25 managed to shoot down a f18 i think pakistani air defence can too


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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> The same goes for you Sir. I am standing by my opinion.


 
You really are not a gentleman you project yourself as- keep standing by your mistake as eventually NATO will by its on 23 Dec--


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## LeGenD

VCheng said:


> WRONG.
> 
> Pakistan ney apnay munh per aap kaalak malee hey, aur yeh aaj kee baat nahi.


And USA has always been pious? In which world do you live? 

Yes, Pakistan has its share of blunders and corruption. But same is true for USA too. Is hamam mein sub nagein hain. 

Even after a decade of cooperation with USA on affairs of WOT, US is not satisfied and attempts to humiliate Pakistan whenever possible.

The US spy network inside Pakistan?
Undue favors to India?
Blatant disregard of Pakistani lives when it comes to military operations?
Threats?

What is all this?


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## karan.1970

Aslan said:


> Of course moron it is, but who. How can you highlight any thing you and the other who is trying to do it. Are u sitting at the border,



Neither was your DG ISPR sitting at the border



Aslan said:


> Whose word should we take your assumptions or what the DGMO is saying. Atleast you should be smart enough to know the answer. And why should we wait for nato to tell us anything. Will u believe a thief who just robed your house.



Its still not established who is the real thief in this instance..We dont know if it was a case of thief came in and thrashed the house owner or the thief tried to rob and got thrashed by the home owner.. An intelligent man tries to get all the information before taking a decision and not jump to conclusions based on scattered, incomplete and unreliable information.. Like the posters from yesterday who were basing every thing on 2.5 KM distance and have a proverbial egg on their face today

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Fair point.. But thats only 1 side of the story.. What additional credibility does Pakistan has that its word needs to be believed above the word of the other side.. Pakistan has officially put forward its position. NATO is still to do that and if there are diverging positions, they need to be dissected to see who is lying or is at fault..


For one, the fact that NATO did not follow proper protocol, mislead the Pakistani liaison officer by providing him the wrong coordinates, and continuing the attack for two hours, does support the Pakistani position.

Consider this - assuming all this was a mistake, somehow the insurgents managed to get a couple of rounds off from close to the Pakistani position, NATO somehow managed to botch their maps and SOP's to contact Pakistan, and attacked the two posts - Pakistani officials at that point contacted NATO as soon as they got wind of the attack, then why did the attack continue for another hour?

An attack for 15 minutes to half an hour, given the delay in the posts communicating to PA commanders, and the PA Commanders calling NATO, would be understandable as a 'mistake'. A two hour assault in two waves is not understandable by any means, given that there are lines of communication in place and liaison officers deployed for precisely that reason.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> there are no contradictory official statements issued by the PA, and therefore there has been no 'backtracking'.



most important point made so far in this thread

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

karan.1970 said:


> Neither was your DG ISPR sitting at the border


Quit the BS Karan - the DG ISPR is basing his comments on the investigation conducted by the PA, on the statements of the surviving soldiers, the liaison officer with ISAF, and communications records between the Pakistani commanders and NATO after the attacks began.

Arguing your position is one thing - trying to defend it in the manner above is inflammatory and nonsense.



> Its still not established who is the real thief in this instance..We dont know if it was a case of thief came in and thrashed the house owner or the thief tried to rob and got thrashed by the home owner.. An intelligent man tries to get all the information before taking a decision and not jump to conclusions based on scattered, incomplete and unreliable information.. Like the posters from yesterday who were basing every thing on 2.5 KM distance and have a proverbial egg on their face today


The arguments yesterday were not based on the official Pakistani report - these are.

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## regular

VCheng said:


> Let's wait and see, shall we? 23rd December is not all that far away, is it?


Hey! Vcheng Why don't U go and take some rest...u've been working hard days and nights now in favor of Pak Army .... Don't take up so much headache and relax. We highly appreciate ure service for our country. we gonna take very good care of US/NATO business with us very soon , they will remember for good.....Insha-Allah!.......


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## VCheng

JonAsad said:


> ................. keep standing by your mistake as eventually NATO will by its on 23 Dec--



I will wait for that report, and only then be able to say whether I need to change my position or not, but NOT before. If needed, I shall have no hesitancy in admitting that here.

Casting aspersions on my gentlemanliness or decency, or lack thereof, does not affect me at all. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ..................
> 
> If you have any decency, you'll accept your error and wait till your 'predictions' are 'officially fulfilled'.



Again, decency has nothing to do with it. I shall wait for the report. Simple.


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## VCheng

regular said:


> Hey! Vcheng Why don't U go and take some rest...u've been working hard days and nights now in favor of Pak Army .... Don't take up so much headache and relax. We highly appreciate ure service for our country. *we gonna take very good care of US/NATO business with us very soon* , they will remember for good.....Insha-Allah!.......



_"Ab kee maar key dekh"_ syndrome still at work, eh?

Either PA or NATO will take care of things, sure. either way, things will be taken care of, I agree.

(BTW, I am pretty tireless.)


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Again, decency has nothing to do with it. I shall wait for the report. Simple.


You have claimed that the PA backtracked on its claims - I have asked you to provide official statements from the PA indicating 'backtracking' to substantiate your claim, which you have failed to to.

Whether you have decency or not, either accept that you have no evidence to support the 'PA backtracked on its statements' claim, and retract it, or provide the evidence supporting your claim.

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> I have not declared anybody right or wrong; all I have said is that some backtracking is likely to occur. It has already begun, with the posts moving nearly 2 km towards the border.


 
You have said Pakistan will change its version of events, why?


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## r3alist

karan.1970 said:


> So leaving the terminology of backtracking aside, the key here is what you said in your 1st line.. Till Yesterday members on the forum went to and fro for 150+ pages without a single official statement from either Pakistan or NATO. As a matter of fact I remember a post from Agno that the facts have already been released by DG ISPR (this is the time we all were basing everything on 2.5 Km distance). Today ISPR has come out with official statement and a bunch of assumptions have gone for a toss..Who is to say that another bunch wont be tossed into the winds once NATO comes out with their side of the story and Pakistan govt does not dispute that..
> 
> And all I have been saying is that unless we get to hear the official versions from both sides, we are just shooting from our hip in the dark
> 
> 
> PS: I would have said VCheng and I have been saying in the line above, but wouldnt want to further damage his standing by clubbing him with a Bharti




Why aren't you listening?

NATO had the location, had made contact with oak and still engaged in sustained attack, more than sufficient to still put the same argument, that is if you listen.

Secondly 2.5km or 250 yards, still an incursion and you still need a reason to be there!!!

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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> You have said Pakistan will change its version of events, why?



Because the outrage was intentionally inflamed by unsuitable hyperbole that will come back and undermine Pakistan's interest.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Because the outrage was intentionally inflamed by unsuitable hyperbole that will come back and undermine Pakistan's interest.


What part of the official statements issued by Pakistani authorities are 'hyperbole' and why?

And where are the contradictory official statements from the PA that you claim indicate 'backtracking'?

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What part of the official statements issued by Pakistani authorities are 'hyperbole' and why?
> 
> And where are the contradictory official statements from the PA that you claim indicate 'backtracking'?



All will be established soon enough, in approximately 3 weeks. Why go around in circles till then? I am content to wait for now.


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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Because the outrage was intentionally inflamed by unsuitable hyperbole that will come back and undermine Pakistan's interest.




So people are feigning outrage? 

Or outrage is unsuitable?

Which is it?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> All will be established soon enough, in approximately 3 weeks. Why go around in circles till then? I am content to wait for now.


There is no going around in circles - you are choosing to avoid supporting your earlier statement of 'backtracking by the PA' - where are the official statements supporting that claim, and why are you so confident about calling the account of the PA 'hyperbole' if indeed in 3 weeks 'the oracle shall tell us the truth'?

Repeat: Do you have evidence supporting your claim of official backtracking by the PA or not?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ISPR has denied any 'new clash'

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - No fresh clash between Pakistan Army, Nato forces: ISPR Spokesman

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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> So people are feigning outrage?
> 
> Or outrage is unsuitable?
> 
> Which is it?



The basis of the outrage is understandable, but the extent is being exploited.

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ........................
> 
> Repeat: Do you have evidence supporting your claim of official backtracking by the PA or not?



Repeat: The words of PA/ISPR will be backtracked by ACTIONS, proving the lack of credibility of the "official" stance, no matter how fancy the paper they are written on.


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## Bond

ISLAMABAD: Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar said on Wednesday that the supply routes for Nato troops will be restored only if Nato apologises for the unprovoked attack that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, Express News reported.
Mukhtar also said that Shamsi Airbase will be vacated by December 11 and no drone planes would be allowed to fly from the base after that.
Earlier in a Cabinet Defence committee meeting, Pakistan had decided to ask the US to leave Shamsi Air Base within 15 days and blocked ground supply routes through Pakistan to US forces in Afghanistan.
Washington was sent notices to vacate the narrow strip located in Balochistan following the deadly Nato attack.
Three sources, who declined to be identified because of the issues sensitivity, said that US planning was under way to leave the base.
The cross-border incident escalated tensions between the two countries and the US military is conducting an investigation to find out exactly what happened on the ground. The moves by the Pakistanis to block ground supply routes and the air base were not expected to significantly hinder US operations.
Read more: natoattack

---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 AM ----------

Supply routes to be restored only if NATO apologises: Ahmad Mukhtar &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## lem34

That would be a mistake in my opinion.

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## Bond

Whatever happened to the &#8216;apology is not enough&#8217; stance?


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

No way, it is time to get out of this wot.

TARIQ

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## r3alist

> The basis of the outrage is understandable, but the extent is being exploited.



By who, and how?

Answer this, what would the us do if they were on the receiving end?


> Repeat: The words of PA/ISPR will be backtracked by ACTIONS, proving the lack of credibility of the "official" stance, no matter how fancy the paper they are written on.



This is silly territory.

We all expect Pakistan to soften up, but that does not negate the sequence of events, and their validity.

In essence you are cheer leading us pressure on, we all depressingly know they will bite back and pressure pak in other ways to relent, that's a function of power, NOT TRUTH, you are replacing power with truth as if you were an American.

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## pakdefender

Bond said:


> Whatever happened to the &#8216;apology is not enough&#8217; stance?



public presssure in Pakistan is at an all time high , there is very little wiggle room for those at the helm

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## lem34

With the level of strong pakistani feelings leaders would have to be mad to allow any sort of transit routes to americans

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## Bond

incompetent minister.... First investigate why the army was again in &#8220;halat-e-sakoon&#8221;.


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## lem34

This would be worrying. I would think that Pak -nato are going to war. But I cannot believe that 100000 troops is anything like enough to move against pakistan in an out and out war. I think americans realise our political leaders are gutless.


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## 53fd

I see a few inconsistencies in Mr Cheng's argument (if he has a coherent one in the first place):

1. First, he says the "Pakistani version" has already backtracked the 2.5km claim. Where was the ISPR statement about the 2.5km claim?

2. Secondly, he says he "never said Pakistan('s version) was wrong". Yet, he says Pakistan has already backtracked on its previous claim (mentioned in "1"), & will do so in the near future. Which shows he believes Pakistan is wrong.

3. He claims "he never said Pakistan was wrong". In other words, there is a chance that Pakistan's version is right & NATO version's could be wrong. But that is in contradiction with "2". 

4. He said he is being impartial. For him to be impartial, he would have to give the same credence to Pakistan's official version (& every other official version from any other country in favor of Pakistan) as NATO's official version coming out in 3 weeks. He clearly does not do that. He says he wants to wait for NATO's official version to come out, as if it would override Pakistan's official version.

5. He claims he wants to wait for NATO's official version to come out before making any conclusions. He claims he wants to just wait for the next three weeks before saying coming to a conclusion looking at the facts from all sides. So why is he giving his opinion here, when he says his statements are based on factual evidence, before all the facts are out?

There are many other contradictions & inconsistencies in his claims as well. I can safely say that he does not have one coherent claim or argument. Unfortunately, all his posts are riddled with discrepancies, inconsistencies, deliberate disingenuity & dishonesty.

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## patna_ke_presley

I think PPP would be history as a political party, if they will do such things.


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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> .........................
> 
> We all expect Pakistan to soften up, but that does not negate the sequence of events, and their validity.
> 
> In essence you are cheer leading us pressure on, we all depressingly know they will bite back and pressure pak in other ways to relent, that's a function of power, NOT TRUTH, you are replacing power with truth as if you were an American.



You can embrace your "truth" all you want in your mind.

Reality is what it is; there is no point in blaming me for it.

So you want to say _"baat tau ghalat hey, magar aap jootay maartey jayen, hum khaatey jaayen gey"_ is good enough? Please go ahead, because that means _"jo ho raha hey, bilkul theek ho raha hey"_.

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> .................. Unfortunately, all his posts are riddled with indiscrepancies, inconsistencies, deliberate disingenuity & dishonesty.



Whose posts are worth what is self-evident. 

I stand by my positions for now, and will evaluate NATO's report when it is released.


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## Omar1984

PPP have been proven to be the biggest slaves of Amreeka and NATO in the history of Pakistan.

And the funny part is when Musharraf was president these PPP people used to call Musharraf a pet of U.S., these PPP have proven to be much more than pets of U.S.

99% of Pakistanis believe America is the enemy. PPP will be commiting political suicide by restoring NATO supplies.

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## lem34

regular said:


> Hey! Vcheng Why don't U go and take some rest...u've been working hard days and nights now in favor of Pak Army .... Don't take up so much headache and relax. We highly appreciate ure service for our country. we gonna take very good care of US/NATO business with us very soon , they will remember for good.....Insha-Allah!.......



Couldnt agree with you more Cheng as sacrificed enough time defending pakistan here on the internet. he should go and chill out and let others carry the batton

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Whose posts are worth what is self-evident.
> 
> I stand by my positions for now, and will evaluate NATO's report when it is released.



You don't have a coherent argument, that is the problem. It's funny that you chose to ignore the rest of my post that highlights the discrepancies & deliberate disingenuity in your arguments. Your only stand is "let's wait for the NATO report to come out."

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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> Couldnt agree with you more Cheng as sacrificed enough time defending pakistan here on the internet. he should go and chill out and let others carry the batton




There are NO "others" like me! 

I will carry the load myself, at least for the time being, thank you very much.

Please feel free to put me on your "Ignore" lists if you wish; I will continue to post on this topic and others as long as allowed to do so.

---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------




bilalhaider said:


> .......... Your only stand is "let's wait for the NATO report to come out."



YES, because.......

*For now, that is the CORRECT stance to take: "Let's wait for the NATO report to come out".*


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## VCheng

Omar1984 said:


> PPP have been proven to be the biggest slaves of Amreeka and NATO in the history of Pakistan.
> 
> And the funny part is when Musharraf was president these PPP people used to call Musharraf a pet of U.S., these PPP have proven to be much more than pets of U.S.
> 
> 99% of Pakistanis believe America is the enemy. PPP will be commiting political suicide by restoring NATO supplies.



Nothing will happen to the government or the Army when supplies resume shortly.


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## Mercenary

pakdefender said:


> Some important notes
> 
> 
> * NATO/US are now left with the slow train route that USSR setup during the 80s , apart from being expensive and much longer it goes through Russian territory who has a score to settle with NATO and will get more out of NATO than NATO will get out of using this route , overall adds to the difficulty of supplying NATO troops and keeping them alive!!
> * Notice of vacating of Shamsi airbase has been sent and December 11th is the data on which murderers will be removed from Pak Sarzameen
> * Pakistan will boycott the Bonn conference which has caused major takleef to that nazi woman who then 'urged' Pakistan to join the conference only to be told that our security is more important for us than that of Afghanistan ( NATO and US in fact since they are occupying that country )
> * Latest polls show that 55% americans consider Pakistan to be an enemy , this should be an eye opener about the blood thirsty nature of these animals



NATO/US has stockpiled enough supplies to last 7 months. They can use Central Asia and Airlift to transport the rest. Its a pain but not a game changer.

As for Shamis, it was given to USA by Pakistan Military to hunt down terrorists.

And LOL, for you calling Angela Merkel a Nazi. With Pakistanis like you, who needs enemies to destroy this country.

Bro 90% of Pakistanis consider America to be an enemy. I guess that should also be an eye opener to Americans to the blood thirsty nature of Pakistanis?

---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 PM ----------




nuclearpak said:


> I suggest you see the video of the aftermath, and see the amount of area that was destroyed.
> 
> As I said, they did not shoot straight away, they would have hovered around and flew for sometime, as a injured Pakistani soldier says, that the helis flew for about an hour, and dropped flares after about half hour.
> 
> And if you do not believe the statements of DGMO at this time, well, what can I say?
> 
> Off to a good sleep now!



I already saw the video. 

Why would the Apaches hover over Infantry positions. What he heard was something different or he is conflating two things.

Apaches engage from long distances. Like when Israel takes out Palestinian Militants, the militants don't even hear the Apache before the missile explodes.

I don't belive the DGMO statements because they have lied in the past so there is no reason to believe that they want to improve their image among the Pakistani public so they are using this issue to do so.


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Whose posts are worth what is self-evident.
> 
> I stand by my positions for now, and will evaluate NATO's report when it is released.



They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder Cheng. Our country has been to war several times with india. Pakistan has suffered abuses at the hands of american govt. Yet most of your posts are appreciated by people who are rabidly anti pakistan so your posts are worth a lot to enemies of pakistan. bilal on the other hand your thanks are mostly from pakistanis. Do i need to say more?

---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There is no going around in circles - you are choosing to avoid supporting your earlier statement of 'backtracking by the PA' - where are the official statements supporting that claim, and why are you so confident about calling the account of the PA 'hyperbole' if indeed in 3 weeks 'the oracle shall tell us the truth'?
> 
> Repeat: Do you have evidence supporting your claim of official backtracking by the PA or not?



Well it would seem he doesnt have any evidence. he will let you know when hes seen the official american report

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## r3alist

Aryan_B said:


> Couldnt agree with you more Cheng as sacrificed enough time defending pakistan here on the internet. he should go and chill out and let others carry the batton


 
Are his responses on this thread your idea of defence?


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> *For now, that is the CORRECT stance to take: "Let's wait for the NATO report to come out".*



Then why are you on this thread then? Do you want others to think like you & stop discussing about the incident?


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## Mercenary

Birbal said:


> \
> 
> He doesn't mince his words.



He is just a populist who has failed utterly to understand the broader picture.

His attempt to blame every problem in Pakistan is to blame USA and the West.

I think his experiences during Cricket especially from someitmes racist incidents has totally clouded his judgement.

Its sad, Imran Khan, is smart, good looking, charismatic, he would have made a good leader of Pakistan if not for his absolute stupid statements. 

Sad to see such a brilliant person go to waste.


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> There are NO "others" like me!
> 
> I will carry the load myself, at least for the time being, thank you very much.
> 
> .
> ".[/B]




Yes there is Zardari? bilal bhutto zaradari etc they seem to want to be freindly with america

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Then why are you on this thread then? Do you want others to stop speaking about the incident?



I have not asked anyone to leave or stop posting, have I, like you have?

Please go right ahead, as I will too.


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## lem34

r3alist said:


> Are his responses on this thread your idea of defence?



ever heard of sarcasm. I was taking the mick. he is an advocate of pakistans enemies


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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> Yes there is Zardari? bilal bhutto zaradari etc they seem to want to be freindly with america



I am ME, and shall remain so, no matter how childish the insults, which speak of your mental level far more loudly than what I can ever say here.


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## fd24

VCheng said:


> Already did. In two threads.
> 
> Call me whatever you like, it does not matter to me. Facts are what they are.



I cringe now when i see your posts because i realize you are the type of character that simply wont back down because you are super stubborn - its clear for all to see how you are ducking and diving rather than asking for clarification of your earlier statement. Its a case of denial denial denial and perhaps they will start believing it - Suppose its the western way - keep denying it and eventually people will start believing your fiction. In fact i think you are so Americanized that you believe the Nato story more than Americans.
I think its about ego and you feeling you are the most correct person on earth. Sadly you are without doubt using the wrong thread for wanting attention as we are talking about real lives here not "what are you listening to" or your photography thread. I dont mind you seeking attention on their but being argumentative on here for the sake of it makes you look an ignoramous - and i dont believe thats fair as i think you are certainly not ignorant - far from it - BTW just my opinion.....

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> I have not asked anyone to leave or stop posting, have I, like you have?
> 
> Please go right ahead, as I will too.



When did I say you should leave or stop posting?

I am merely saying that you should follow your claim that your argument is based on facts, & since the "facts" from the NATO side have not come out, you should reconcile that position of yours.

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## Omar1984

*Nato apology will not be enough: Khar*








ISLAMABAD: Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar has said that the Nato attack on the Pakistani check post was not an accident and "only an apology would not be enough."

Khar however added that Pakistan was not waiting for an apology

The minister was briefing the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Relations on Wednesday. 

Pakistan cannot see its soldiers being killed by allied forces anymore. There is an established mechanism between Pakistan and allied forces working in Afghanistan regarding movement on the border but Nato authorities didn't inform us about their activity before the incident, Khar said. 

The foreign minister said Pakistan's role in Afghan peace efforts had been accepted by all but not appreciated and coalition forces had crossed red lines several times.

On the issue of the controversial memo, Khar told the meeting held under the chairmanship of Senator Saleem Saifullah Khan that the Foreign Office had no record regarding the memo sent to Admiral Mike Mullen.

Khar noted that Mansoor Ijaz had tried to malign the Pakistan Army and ISI in the controversial memo issue. 

Khar was of the view that former ambassador Husain Haqqani must be given a chance to present his arguments before a court of law.


Nato apology will not be enough: Khar


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## VCheng

superkaif said:


> ......... BTW just my opinion.....



Sure, please keep your opinion, as I will keep mine.

There is a differnece between stubbornness and conviction, but perhaps that is beyond you to understand.

How hard can it be to wait three weeks?

PDF was in an uproar about RD too, till he was driven to the airport. Same thing with this thread. Sad, will you you guys never learn?


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## r3alist

Aryan_B said:


> ever heard of sarcasm. I was taking the mick. he is an advocate of pakistans enemies


 
Oooops, sometimes hard to tell

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> Then why are you on this thread then? Do you want others to think like you & stop discussing about the incident?


 


bilalhaider said:


> When did I say you should leave or stop posting?.............



Perhaps you forgot this post of yours?


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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Sure, please keep your opinion, as I will keep mine.
> 
> There is a differnece between stubbornness and conviction, but perhaps that is beyond you to understand.
> 
> How hard can it be to wait three weeks?
> 
> PDF was in an uproar about RD too, till he was driven to the airport. Same thing with this thread. Sad, will you you guys never learn?




This is not meaningful.

We know us will get what it wants, that does not mean it's correct.

Same with NATO, same with ray Davis.


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## Mercenary

There are major holes in this whole Pakistan side of the story.

1 - If the attack went on for 2 hours, how come no reinforcements were sent?
2 - Apache Gunships engage in quick precison strikes and they don't hover for 2 hours. And why did it take the Apache Gunships 2 hours to take out 2 posts which they could have taken out in mere seconds?

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Perhaps you forgot this post of yours?



I was asking you to clarify your intentions on posting here, I never asked you to leave this thread. 

The problem is that you make 'positive assertions' & definitive statements, but when you get cornered, you use the statement "let's wait for NATO's facts to come out" as a cop-out.

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## Mercenary

Omar1984 said:


> PPP have been proven to be the biggest slaves of Amreeka and NATO in the history of Pakistan.
> 
> And the funny part is when Musharraf was president these PPP people used to call Musharraf a pet of U.S., these PPP have proven to be much more than pets of U.S.
> 
> 99% of Pakistanis believe America is the enemy. PPP will be commiting political suicide by restoring NATO supplies.



And yet 99% of Pakistanis want American Visas. Isn't that a bit of a hypocracy?

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> I am ME, and shall remain so, no matter how childish the insults, which speak of your mental level far more loudly than what I can ever say here.



whats that supposed to mean?? it has been shown that they are pro american and so are you. why is it an insult to you? On the contrary you are the one thats questioning my intellectual prowess. Now Cheng I dont know if you have heard of a woman called jade in uk. She has died now but when she was alive she used to be known to be a famous attention seeker with no talent. I admire people who have some skill for example Wasim Akram was a great baller and he deserved plaudits, Others may excell in intellect etc, but there is one group of people that I have little time for and they are people who say things to attract attention yet have little to note of merit. Its like if I walked around the block with no clothes I would very soon become well known in the locality as some nutter fame for the sake of it is not a big deal, I am reminded of the veena maliks of this world. You have strong views but they chime with the enemies of pakistan not of people who are well wishers. Had you been flying a indian or american flag we would say that you put your case as well as possible for your country. What makes you unique is the simple fact that your views chime with enemies of pakistan and yet you insist you are pakistani and a well wisher of pakistan. Just check your thank yous and where and who they come from, As you like to say face reality and facts. If you were Indian or american we would ave interesting discussions although at times you would be regarded as a troll.

This is probably wrong of me to talk to you like this because this is what you want isnt it. Go look at your past posts see how often you lead people away from thread to your favourite topic and that is you and your uniqueness (ME ME ME)

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## Omar1984

Mercenary said:


> And yet 99% of Pakistanis want American Visas. Isn't that a bit of a hypocracy?



Even Americans themselves are fed up with this war OF terror. Americans themselves hate their Government's policies. Most Americans themselves want U.S. out of Afghanistan. So dont blame Pakistanis for being fed up with this war OF terror that is destroying Pakistan and was never Pakistan's war in the first place.

The anger and hatred has nothing to do with America as a country, but its because people see the American GOVERNMENT and Army as the enemy, not the land and not the people of America.

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## Mercenary

Omar1984 said:


> Even Americans themselves are fed up with this war OF terror. Most Americans themselves want U.S. out of Afghanistan. So dont blame Pakistanis for being fed up with this war OF terror that is destroying Pakistan and was never Pakistan's war in the first place.



So USA leaves Afghanistan. Al Qaeda comes back and sets up bases and launches more terrorist attacks around the world.

What do you suppose should happen then?

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## fd24

VCheng said:


> Sure, please keep your opinion, as I will keep mine.
> 
> There is a differnece between stubbornness and conviction, but perhaps that is beyond you to understand.
> 
> How hard can it be to wait three weeks?
> 
> PDF was in an uproar about RD too, till he was driven to the airport. Same thing with this thread. Sad, will you you guys never learn?



Cheng you have been asked a question 11 times via AM and others yet you behave like me 4 year old nephew - when i tell him if he wants to go to school he says he wants to go to the toilet. You are simply unable to answer a question and you keep saying you have already answered it - it really is incredible how many different ways you can come up a nonsense answer - i really must give you a medal coz you are brilliant at that.
BTW your last sentance about RD - off topic. Stick to what we are talking about - and thats you not answering the question and wanting to believe anyone but Pakistan. Jeeeeeeeeeeez you are in a different planet Mr Cheng - btw just my opinion.
I rest my case - and will attempt to move on. You can take a horse to water but you cant force it to drink..............

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## lem34

Aryan_B said:


> whats that supposed to mean?? it has been shown that they are pro american and so are you. why is it an insult to you? On the contrary you are the one thats questioning my intellectual prowess. Now Cheng I dont know if you have heard of a woman called jade in uk. She has died now but when she was alive she used to be known to be a famous attention seeker with no talent. I admire people who have some skill for example Wasim Akram was a great baller and he deserved plaudits, Others may excell in intellect etc, but there is one group of people that I have little time for and they are people who say things to attract attention yet have little to note of merit. Its like if I walked around the block with no clothes I would very soon become well known in the locality as some nutter fame for the sake of it is not a big deal, I am reminded of the veena maliks of this world. You have strong views but they chime with the enemies of pakistan not of people who are well wishers. Had you been flying a indian or american flag we would say that you put your case as well as possible for your country. What makes you unique is the simple fact that your views chime with enemies of pakistan and yet you insist you are pakistani and a well wisher of pakistan. Just check your thank yous and where and who they come from, As you like to say face reality and facts. If you were Indian or american we would ave interesting discussions although at times you would be regarded as a troll.
> 
> This is probably wrong of me to talk to you like this because this is what you want isnt it. Go look at your past posts see how often you lead people away from thread to your favourite topic and that is you and your uniqueness (ME ME ME)



self delete


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## W.11

mr sell out prime minister, what happened to the 'we have to consider our nation' stance?? if you were just trying to find 2 number way out of this problem??

and what if nato strikes back and kills more soldiers??


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## Omar1984

Mercenary said:


> So USA leaves Afghanistan. Al Qaeda comes back and sets up bases and launches more terrorist attacks around the world.
> 
> What do you suppose should happen then?



Al Qadea is said to be in its weakest state and Al Qaeda itself is a creation of CIA.


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## Nothing

pakdefender said:


> public presssure in Pakistan is at an all time high , there is very little wiggle room for those at the helm



That pressure is like pressure in cooker.. when it is releasing it makes noise .. but after that .. it is damm gone .. this is how public works everywhere .. unless and until no one is leading them from one point every thing is useless ... they did burned some posters (waste of precious paper.. make books from them)... blocked roads .. (waste of gas .. already shortage )... lawyers strike (waste of productive time , thousand of cases pending already)..

Public agitation is not serial on TV .. come once a week every one watching it .. for rest of week no one talks abt it ....

You should fight end to end ...


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## W.11

Mercenary said:


> So USA leaves Afghanistan. Al Qaeda comes back and sets up bases and launches more terrorist attacks around the world.
> 
> What do you suppose should happen then?



USA forces are the biggest terrorist, they just killed the 'allies', where are you sir?? your head in the sand???

alquaeda??? alquaeda is every where, last i saw the news abt AQ in yemen

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## Omar1984

And whoever thinks NATO is still a friend of Pakistan after this murder of 28 Pakistani Soldiers, then you need to see a psychiatrist.

NATO is Pakistan's enemy not Pakistan's friend.

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## alphamale

many ppl including many Pakistanis were expecting this. not surprised by the statement.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

Nato and u.s r enemies of pakistan, i m glad now most of our pakistani brothers realised it though everybody knew it.

They don't care if they kill 28 or 2800 soldiers as long as they r not white or don't have u.s passport.

it is like to have friendship with crocodile when u turn ur back it might grabs u under its jaws

TARIQ

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## Peregrine

Long story short........ American aid is Pakistan Army's life line & the military establishment in Pakistan would never go against the American interests............. I know, This isn't something, we Pakistani's would like to hear, but that's the bitter reality.

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## VCheng

Ignoring personal attacks, back to the topic:

===============================================

*"Pakistan Releases Details About NATO Attack".*

Fine.

Now let's wait for *"NATO Releases Details About NATO Attack"* without speculating or chest thumping so that Wasim Akram, Jade, Veena Malik, somebody's nephew, the guy running around the block naked, and those of us here who are not half brain dead can decide for themselves what likely happened.


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## MilSpec

Raja.Pakistani said:


> If these soldiers were NATO soldiers, you get detail report within few hours but american double standards


Where is pakistani agencies detailed report???


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## VCheng

Mercenary said:


> .............
> 
> Sad to see such a brilliant person go to waste.



It is even sadder to see such an icon being a puppet for the ISI.


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## Guest01

Strnge. If it was really an unprovoked assualt and ws sustained over such a long period of time then PAF would have been scrambled. The very fact that top brass let the men be strafed means that Pakistan Army had something to hde in the incident and made a miscalculation about the strong counterattack from the Afghan Army / NATO.

Credibility being suspect, it would be sensible to wait for the Afghan / NATO side of the story before making up an opinion. These all could very much be false allegations.


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## Kambojaric

Omar1984 said:


> PPP have been proven to be the biggest slaves of Amreeka and NATO in the history of Pakistan.
> 
> And the funny part is when Musharraf was president these PPP people used to call Musharraf a pet of U.S., these PPP have proven to be much more than pets of U.S.
> 
> 99% of Pakistanis believe America is the enemy. PPP will be commiting* political suicide *by restoring NATO supplies.



I think they dont care anymore as they know they cant win the next election anyways. So might as well amass as much money as possible now, before enjoying a few years in the opposition and then try to win in the elections after that when our forgettable people have forgotten everything.

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## Omar1984

VCheng said:


> Ignoring personal attacks, back to the topic:
> 
> ===============================================
> 
> *"Pakistan Releases Details About NATO Attack".*
> 
> Fine.
> 
> Now let's wait for *"NATO Releases Details About NATO Attack"* without speculating or chest thumping so that Wasim Akram, Jade, Veena Malik, somebody's nephew, the guy running around the block naked, and those of us here who are not half brain dead can decide for themselves what likely happened.



NATO are murderers so what makes you so sure they can't be liars.

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## VCheng

Omar1984 said:


> NATO are murderers so what makes you so sure they cant be liers.



NEWSFLASH: ALL armies murder people, including NATO and Pakistan Army. It is what armies are for!

That is why civilian governments should hold the leash to the dogs of war at all times.

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Ignoring personal attacks, back to the topic:



Yes, like when you accused me of asking to you stop posting, or leaving the thread. 

If you don't have a coherent argument, you will be challenged for it. If you say that you want to wait for the "NATO releases details about NATO attack", well, I'm sure you can understand what you should do, I'm not advocating you anything. Just don't use this statement (let's wait for "NATO releases details about NATO attack) as a cop-out when you have been exposed.

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> It is even sadder to see such an icon being a puppet for the ISI.



I think the maijority of pakistanis now think like him and are not too happy with america. Suppose in your book we are all puppets of ISI

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Repeat: The words of PA/ISPR will be backtracked by ACTIONS, proving the lack of credibility of the "official" stance, no matter how fancy the paper they are written on.


That is a pretty dishonest shift in your position and your earlier claims - you said that the PA had backtracked, just try and be honest for a second and just respond to that question - *do you have anything to support your claim that the PA has backtracked in its official statements?*

It is a simple enough answer - have the decency and honesty to answer it, and retract your earlier claim.

BTW, WRT your 'backtracked by actions', that is just a sniveling safe facing way out for you - Pakistan may indeed decide to 'accept an apology' from NATO and return to a normal relationship, but that does not by any means suggest that the PA is backtracking on its version of events.

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 PM ----------




VCheng said:


> NEWSFLASH: ALL armies murder people, including NATO and Pakistan Army. It is what armies are for!
> 
> That is why civilian governments should hold the leash to the dogs of war at all times.


Yet more running around in circles instead of answering the questions - why can't NATO military be liars and fabricate reports to continue to promote their national interests?

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## lem34

bilalhaider said:


> I was asking you to clarify your intentions on posting here, I never asked you to leave this thread.
> 
> The problem is that you make 'positive assertions', but when you get cornered, you use the statement "let's wait for NATO's facts to come out" as a cop-out.



sounds like a broken record to me. yet on another thread hes saying that Imran is an ISI asset without any evidence whatsoever

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## Evil Flare

Ahmad Mukhtar is a traitor ... Fire him

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## CaptainJackSparrow

VCheng said:


> It is even sadder to see such an icon being a puppet for the ISI.



Only time will tell whether he is playing ISI (in which case he'd have to be really smart) or whether the ISI is playing him. 

One thing is for sure, though, that in the current maelstrom of the state of affairs in Pakistan, Imran Khan is the best bet. 

There's no other who can compete with Imran for now at least.

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## Bhairava

It's all slowly falling into place.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ............retract your earlier claim.



My claim stands Sir, at least till 23rd December. Then we shall see if I need to amend it, based on the NATO report, not by your non-arguments.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> .........Pakistan may indeed decide to 'accept an apology' from NATO and return to a normal relationship, but that does not by any means suggest that the PA is backtracking on its version of events.



_Au contraire_, resuming a "normal" master-slave relationship means EXACTLY that PA has backtracked. You may not admit it and the frenzied zealots in the Pakistani nation may not admit it, but the whole world will _surely _see it.


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## lem34

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Only time will tell whether he is playing ISI (in which case he'd have to be really smart) or whether the ISI is playing him.
> 
> One thing is for sure, though, that in the current maelstrom of the state of affairs in Pakistan, Imran Khan is the best bet.
> 
> There's no other who can compete with Imran for now at least.



wow mate I thought you were joking when you started that thread about not trolling I find myself being compelled to thank you

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## fd24

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is a pretty dishonest shift in your position and your earlier claims - you said that the PA had backtracked, just try and be honest for a second and just respond to that question - *do you have anything to support your claim that the PA has backtracked in its official statements?*
> 
> It is a simple enough answer - have the decency and honesty to answer it, and retract your earlier claim.
> 
> BTW, WRT your 'backtracked by actions', that is just a sniveling safe facing way out for you - Pakistan may indeed decide to 'accept an apology' from NATO and return to a normal relationship, but that does not by any means suggest that the PA is backtracking on its version of events.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Yet more running around in circles instead of answering the questions - why can't NATO military be liars and fabricate reports to continue to promote their national interests?



AM - i personally give in. Cheng is Cheng. He is set in his ways and his hatred for Pakistan is clear for all to see in his posts.
In my opinion Pakistan may have to accept the grovelling apology from Nato for the sake of all - this wont change the status quo. Americans are liars and scumbags in this affair and others. For the sake of this region we may accept a "sorry" but we can and will never forget.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Sure, please keep your opinion, as I will keep mine.
> 
> There is a differnece between stubbornness and conviction, but perhaps that is beyond you to understand.
> 
> How hard can it be to wait three weeks?
> 
> PDF was in an uproar about RD too, till he was driven to the airport. Same thing with this thread. Sad, will you you guys never learn?


Patriotic Pakistanis are still upset over the RD affair, as it should be - only a continuing buildup of rage against policies such as the ones followed by the current government will result in a change, either politically or otherwise, in Pakistan.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ...........
> .............. why can't NATO military be liars and fabricate reports to continue to promote their national interests?



..... because they have to put out their report yet! THAT IS WHY!

Why are you so anxious to prejudge what has not been put out yet? This is the very definition of prejudice.

Please learn to wait for ALL the facts to be known before jumping to conclusions.

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------




AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Patriotic Pakistanis are still upset over the RD affair, as it should be - only a continuing buildup of rage against policies such as the ones followed by the current government will result in a change, either politically or otherwise, in Pakistan.



How much more "rage" does the nation need to actually DO something that creates a real change, I wonder?

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------




superkaif said:


> AM - i personally give in. Cheng is Cheng. ................



Thank you!


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## VCheng

Bhairava said:


> It's all slowly falling into place.



Of course it is. Was there ever any doubt?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> My claim stands Sir, at least till 23rd December. Then we shall see if I need to amend it, based on the NATO report, not by your non-arguments.


How can your claim stand when you have not backed it up by providing any official PA statements contradicting themselves?


> _Au contraire_, resuming a "normal" master-slave relationship means EXACTLY that PA has backtracked. You may not admit it and the frenzied zealots in the Pakistani nation may not admit it, but the whole world will _surely _see it.


The PA has not argued that 'Pakistan should have an X or Y relationship after this incident' to begin with, the GoP has. 

The only thing the PA can 'backtrack' on are the official statements it has made regarding the facts it has established around the NATO attack, as mentioned.

The only thing you are doing is changing the goal posts when your argument is called out for the duplicitous and dishonest nonsense it is.

I am giving you one last chance to retract your earlier claims that the 'PA *HAS* backtracked on the claims it has made regarding the NATO attack'.

What happens in the future is not what the argument is about, and your speculation about what will happen is not the issue being debated - again - Do you have official statements from the PA contradicting themselves on the facts related to the NATO attack?

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## CaptainJackSparrow

Aamir Zia said:


> Ahmad Mukhtar is a traitor ... Fire him



You have to agree that, in Pakistan, at least on such important matters, when a civilian politician speaks, only the voice is his but the words come from GHQ. 

I think that much nobody can deny.

Hence, your anger would better be directed at Kayani.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> ..... because they have to put out their report yet! THAT IS WHY!
> 
> Why are you so anxious to prejudge what has not been put out yet? This is the very definition of prejudice.


Because nothing has come of the previous so called reports they came out with - with all the 'investigations and reports' they have done around so called 'friendly fire incidents' in similar circumstances, on the same border, you would think they had the process perfected by now and this would not have happened to begin with.



> Please learn to wait for ALL the facts to be known before jumping to conclusions.


Yet you had no problem accusing the PA of 'backtracking' or making predictions of 'slave master relationships' and backtracking in the future. I don't think you are in any position to be making that argument.


> How much more "rage" does the nation need to actually DO something that creates a real change, I wonder?


Its getting there - Imran Khan is becoming popular finally after all.

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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ......................
> 
> I am giving you one last chance to retract your earlier claims that the 'PA *HAS* backtracked on the claims it has made regarding the NATO attack'......................



I am not taking any "last chances", and standing by my position till 12-23-11, thank you very much. Till then, I am sorry you will either have to accept it or exercise your Admin rights if you so wish, making a mockery of the words by Webmaster in my signature:

_"Just want to add, no matter what your view is. PDF accepts them all. Just respect everybody, keep a friendly tone, and the favor will be returned by many.

It is my goal to make this happen."
_

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## lem34

Wednesday, June 8, 2011
Americans Don't Believe Government Lies: "Forty-Eight Percent Say That Another Great Depression Is Likely To Occur In The Next Year ... More Than Eight In Ten Americans Say That The Economy Is In Poor Shape

Look at the above in a survey undertaken in america about american govt 48% americans believe their govt are liars. But Mr Cheng is one of the 52% 

Americans Don't Believe Government Lies: "Forty-Eight Percent Say That Another Great Depression Is Likely To Occur In The Next Year ... More Than Eight In Ten Americans Say That The Economy Is In Poor Shape" &#8594; Washingtons Blog

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## mr42O

ABUL, Afghanistan (AP)  Pakistan resumed some cooperation with U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan following NATO strikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers by working with the coalition to prevent another cross-border incident from escalating, a spokesman said Wednesday.

The airstrikes have severely strained the already troubled relationship between Pakistan and the U.S., jeopardizing Washington's hopes of enlisting Islamabad's support in winding down the Afghan war.

Pakistan is still outraged by the soldiers' deaths and has retaliated by closing its Afghan border crossings to NATO supplies, demanding the U.S. vacate an air base used by American drones and boycotting an international conference aimed at stabilizing Afghanistan.

But NATO said Islamabad communicated with the alliance to prevent an exchange of artillery fire late Tuesday from turning into another international incident.

German Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, a NATO spokesman in Kabul, expressed hope that Pakistan's cooperation in resolving the incident in eastern Afghanistan's Paktia province signaled the two sides could recover from the recent tragedy. He did not provide more details about targets or who was doing the shooting but said no damage or injuries were reported.

"We are continuing operations and it is of great importance that the incidents of Saturday, as tragic as they were, do not disrupt our capability to operate in the border area and cooperate with the Pakistani side," said Jacobson.

The Pakistani military did not immediately respond to request for comment on the latest incident.

Pakistani and American officials have offered different accounts of how NATO aircraft attacked two Pakistan army posts before dawn Saturday. But it seems clear that a breakdown in communication contributed to the tragedy.

According to U.S. military records described to The Associated Press, the incident occurred when a joint U.S. and Afghan patrol requested backup after being hit by mortar and small arms fire by Taliban militants. Before responding, the joint U.S.-Afghan patrol first checked with the Pakistani army, which reported it had no troops in the area, the military account said.

Pakistani officials have refuted this claim and said U.S. forces must have known they were attacking Pakistani soldiers because the posts were clearly marked on maps given to NATO and the two sides were in contact immediately before and during the airstrikes.

Pentagon press secretary George Little disputed suggestions that the attack on the Pakistani troops was deliberate.

"In no way, shape or form should this be construed as in intentional attack on Pakistan by the United States. That is simply incorrect," Little told reporters in Washington.

The Pakistan army on Wednesday released photographs and video of the posts that were attacked in the Mohmand tribal area. The images show small, damaged structures made out of stacked gray stones perched on a steep, barren mountain ridge. A white flag flew next to one of the posts.

Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said he rejected person pleas from the Afghan president and the German chancellor to reconsider Islamabad's decision to boycott the conference Monday in Bonn, Germany, on Afghanistan.

Few had high expectations for the conference, but the absence of Pakistan will make even minor progress more difficult. The Taliban called the conference an "American trap" and a plot to "further ensnare Afghanistan into the flames of occupation" in statement posted on its website Wednesday, according to Site Monitoring Services, a U.S.-based group that tracks militant websites.

Pakistan and Afghanistan have long had a strained relationship even though the two countries have ethnic and cultural similarities. Islamabad is angry at Kabul because the NATO aircraft that carried out the strikes that killed its soldiers were based in Afghanistan.

"Afghan land has been used against Pakistan, and we are protesting against this," Gilani told reporters in the southern city of Karachi. "We don't want the land of our brother country, which is like a twin, to be used against Pakistan."

Pakistanis have staged small rallies protesting the strikes in the country's major cities, many of them organized by anti-U.S. Islamist parties.

Re-establishing a workable relationship between Pakistan, Afghanistan and the U.S. is important because Islamabad is critical to the process of peace negotiations with the Taliban. Pakistan has historical ties with the group and is seen as the actor with the greatest leverage to push the Taliban to the negotiating table.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai moved forward with those efforts Wednesday, meeting with members of a council he set up to broker peace with the Taliban and reiterating the need for "honest cooperation with Pakistan for providing opportunities for negotiation with the opposition."

Karzai also told members of the peace council that he was in favor of changing the panel's composition to include more individuals who might be able to bridge the divide between the insurgents and the government. Tribal leaders, religious figures and clerics also should be given more opportunity to assist with the peace process, Karzai told them.

___

Khan reported from Karachi, Pakistan. Associated Press writers Sebastian Abbot in Islamabad and Lolita Baldor in Washington contributed to this report.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ........................
> 
> Yet you had no problem accusing the PA of *'backtracking'* or making predictions of *'slave master relationships'* and backtracking in the future. ........................



Those are not predictions, but HISTORICAL FACTS, which WILL continue for the foreseeable future, even if IK is in power. You are setting yourself for another disappointment I am afraid.

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 PM ----------




Aryan_B said:


> Wednesday, June 8, 2011
> Americans Don't Believe Government Lies: "Forty-Eight Percent Say That Another Great Depression Is Likely To Occur In The Next Year ... More Than Eight In Ten Americans Say That The Economy Is In Poor Shape
> 
> Look at the above in a survey undertaken in america about american govt 48% americans believe their govt are liars. But Mr Cheng is one of the 52%
> 
> Americans Don't Believe Government Lies: "Forty-Eight Percent Say That Another Great Depression Is Likely To Occur In The Next Year ... More Than Eight In Ten Americans Say That The Economy Is In Poor Shape" &#8594; Washingtons Blog



Offtopic, and thus not worthy of a response.


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> _"Just want to add, no matter what your view is. PDF accepts them all. Just respect everybody, keep a friendly tone, and the favor will be returned by many.
> 
> It is my goal to make this happen."
> _



Is that why you were calling me names earlier?? calling bilal a liar? etc

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## JonAsad

Cheng- for hell sake- where the ISPR backtracked- Present the official statements- Be a Man- or admit the obvious-
The NATO Gospel for you will be out on 23 Dec- Till then Put forth the base of your claims which you made today- Now-

Since you like anything Amrikan- here an amrikan quote for you-

_"A man must be big enough to admit his mistakes, smart enough to profit from them, and strong enough to correct them._- John C. Maxwell

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> I am not taking any "last chances", and standing by my position till 12-23-11, thank you very much. Till then, I am sorry you will either have to accept it or exercise your Admin rights if you so wish, making a mockery of the words by Webmaster in my signature:
> 
> _"Just want to add, no matter what your view is. PDF accepts them all. Just respect everybody, keep a friendly tone, and the favor will be returned by many.
> 
> It is my goal to make this happen."
> _



Yes, all views from all sources are accepted here. Mindless slander against others isn't though.

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## lem34

VCheng said:


> Offtopic, and thus not worthy of a response.



What? you said you are waiting for american govt version. I show you a survey saying that 48% americans think their govt lies and you think thats off topic please explain? Im beggining to think your thought process is flawed. Please convince me I am wrong although it will prove difficult as you are not known for giving straight answers

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## VCheng

JonAsad said:


> .....................
> The NATO Gospel for you will be out on 23 Dec- .....................



... and that is what I will wait for, come hell or high water.


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## fd24

VCheng said:


> I am not taking any "last chances", and standing by my position till 12-23-11, thank you very much. Till then, I am sorry you will either have to accept it or exercise your Admin rights if you so wish, making a mockery of the words by Webmaster in my signature:
> 
> _"Just want to add, no matter what your view is. PDF accepts them all. Just respect everybody, keep a friendly tone, and the favor will be returned by many.
> 
> It is my goal to make this happen."
> _



Cheng i am sure you are firstly taking Webys quote out of context - secondly doesnt change the fact you are trying to be more American than Americans. I spoke to a well respected American on here. Dont need to be a genius who it is as not many are respected - he voiced complete embarassement at whats happened and was humiliated to be associated with the events but you? - you are with respect blaming anyone but the scumbags that carried this act out.

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## r3alist

Repitition of definitive statements without proof is trolling.


You are consistently implying there will be s backtrack or disappointment, but you cannot say why or how?

Surely a troll, a polite one.

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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> What? you said you are waiting for american govt version. I show you a survey saying that 48% americans think their govt lies and you think thats off topic please explain? Im beggining to think your thought process is flawed. Please convince me I am wrong although it will prove difficult as you are not known for giving straight answers



What has lying got to do with the terrible loss that is the topic of this thread?

Do you want me to prove the terrible job the Pakistani government does of lying to its own people to steal their future? N thanks, that is quite evident already.

Back to the topic please!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> I am not taking any "last chances", and standing by my position till 12-23-11, thank you very much. Till then, I am sorry you will either have to accept it or exercise your Admin rights if you so wish, making a mockery of the words by Webmaster in my signature:
> 
> _"Just want to add, no matter what your view is. PDF accepts them all. Just respect everybody, keep a friendly tone, and the favor will be returned by many.
> 
> It is my goal to make this happen."
> _


Sorry - but the direction of your discourse has taken a mocking, disingenuous and circular route, that is of absolutely no constructive use, and is only serving to annoy members and keep arguing over the same thing, because of your refusal to accept that you made a claim that was not backed by any facts and you are too stubborn to admit it.

While it is correct that 'PDF will accept your view, no matter what it is', it is also true that we expect those views to be articulated with civility, and that other posters are respected. Your refusal to substantiate your argument, and refusal to then accept that your argument has no basis, is disrespectful to those of us seriously engaging you in discourse.

If you cannot respect us in being honest in your discourse and accept your mistake, then I think it better than you take some time to cool off, and return when your 'gospel' of a NATO report is released.

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## lem34

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Its getting there - Imran Khan is becoming popular finally after all.



Yea but on another thread Cheng has stated that Imran is a ISI asset. He has no evidence for that. But he is happy to make an assertion that he has no evidence for because it suits his purpose to say so.


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## JonAsad

Please- If we all can just ignore the attention seeker and discuss some very important points made by an old member on page 14-

This one-


Mercenary said:


> There are major holes in this whole Pakistan side of the story.
> 
> 1 - If the attack went on for 2 hours, how come no reinforcements were sent?
> 2 - Apache Gunships engage in quick precison strikes and they don't hover for 2 hours. And why did it take the Apache Gunships 2 hours to take out 2 posts which they could have taken out in mere seconds?



This Cheng Cheng is getting boring and predictable now-
About: Attention-seeking personality disorders, victim syndrome, insecurity and centre of attention behavior

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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Those are not predictions, but HISTORICAL FACTS, which WILL continue for the foreseeable future



The historical facts are that this incident is unprecedented in the Pakistan-US relationship in its 'context' (NATO attacking Pakistani soldiers inside Pakistan), & even they killed 2 Pakistani soldiers "accidentally" a couple of years ago, this incident is unprecedented in its 'magnitude'. Hence, I would say to you like you have been saying to others when you get cornered, please hold your horses, before you so emphatically claim about what will happen in the future.


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## Omar1984

Fieldmarshal said:


> sir Pakistan is doing no such thing and Istanbul was an example of that where iran, russia, china sided with Pakistan. even though turkey on the behest of u.s tried it utmost to convince Pakistan to do other wise.
> so bonn is a waste of time as again the key countries that have a border with Afghanistan and major regional/intl players they dont agree with the u.s point of view and infact want the u.s out, plain and simple.



Pakistan should hold its own conference in Islamabad with Iran, Russia, China, and Afghan Taliban.

We all know Afghan Taliban are the main people who will decide Afghanistan's future thats why U.S. is desperate to get them come to the table.

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

*Pakistan says decision on Afghanistan conference is final*


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan&#8217;s decision not to attend a conference on the future of Afghanistan in Germany next week, taken to protest against a Nato cross-border attack that killed 24 soldiers, is final, a foreign ministry official said on Wednesday.

&#8220;Of course it&#8217;s the final word. Pakistan is not attending,&#8221; the official told Reuters, shortly after the German government urged Islamabad to reverse its stand.

Fury over the attack is growing, with more protests across Pakistan and tough editorials in newspapers.

&#8220;It is definitely not Pakistan&#8217;s intention to work against the rest of the world,&#8221; Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar told Dawn News television on Wednesday.

&#8220;But the rest of the world also has to understand that if they have pushed Pakistan into this corner, violated red lines, then they have denied the basis of partnership,&#8221; she said.

Islamabad&#8217;s decision to boycott next week&#8217;s meeting in Bonn will deprive the talks of a key player that could nudge Taliban militants into a peace process as Nato combat troops prepare to leave Afghanistan by the end of 2014.


Pakistan says decision on Afghanistan conference is final | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

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## VCheng

bilalhaider said:


> The historical facts are that this incident is unprecedented in the Pakistan-US relationship in its 'context' (NATO attacking Pakistani soldiers inside Pakistan), & even they killed 2 Pakistani soldiers "accidentally" a couple of years ago, this incident is unprecedented in its 'magnitude'. Hence, I would say to you like you have been saying to others when you get cornered, *please hold your horses, before you so emphatically claim about what will happen in the future.*



Honestly, isn't that exactly what I have been saying all along too?

Can we please hold all horses till both sides have put out their reports?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> I am being entirely respectful, clam and cool.
> 
> How can you expect a "mistake" to be "admitted" when none has occurred?


You have not provide the PA statements that are contradictory


> If you expect me to cool off and wait till 12/23, would you care to apply the same standard to others too, please?


Plenty of posters have been given 'cooling off' time - one would have expected you to have behaved with more honesty and respect. The manner in which you end up being treated is entirely your own fault, because of the disingenuous arguments you make and the rings you try and run around a serious discussion when pinned down.

Take care.

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## lem34

JonAsad said:


> Please- If we all can just ignore the attention seeker and discuss some very important points made by an old member on page 14-
> 
> This one-



agreed jon you are right about the attention seeker. Just wandering if it could be two separate attacks? ie one attack then pause and then a second one? did the two hours claim come from survivors?


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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> ... and that is what I will wait for, *come hell or high water*.



Exactly- Your mind is already set to accept the NATO Gospel as divine words- Here is where the problem lies Sir-


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## Awesome

r3alist said:


> honourable, but not practical am afraid.
> 
> theres other areas to readdress any imbalance, if need be.



Tell me, if you are being attacked by a guy much bigger than you. You have gun, that can shoot him down, wouldn't you fire? Then why is it different when someone comes to attack your soldiers? Your soldiers' life must be protected. Chahay koi bhi hai, kill the bloody attacker down.

Its not like they didn't have the capability to shoot down the choppers. The ISPR report pointed out that they didn't have the capability for aerial defence. After the Osama raid, this is criminal negligence on the part of the leadership. After being reported that the checkpost has come under attack and not scrambling the PAF in defence - thats plain criminal.


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## 53fd

VCheng said:


> Honestly, isn't that exactly what I have been saying all along too?
> 
> Can we please hold all horses till both sides have put out their reports?



The difference between you & the rest of the people on this thread is that we don't emphatically claim what will happen in the future like you do, we don't mindlessly slander about anyone backtracking any statements, neither do we think our standpoints are set in stone like you do about yours.

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## fd24

bilalhaider said:


> The difference between you & the rest of the people on this thread is that we don't emphatically claim what will happen in the future like we do, we don't mindlessly slander about anyone backtracking any statements, neither do we think our standpoints are set in stone like you do about yours.



Bilal yaar enough - stop beating a guy down when he cant respond - he has been banned yaar. Lets have a minute silence....

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## JonAsad

Aryan_B said:


> agreed jon you are right about the attention seeker. Just wandering if it could be two separate attacks? ie one attack then pause and then a second one? did the two hours claim come from survivors?



Dont know but the official account is confusing- it did say- they seem to return as if the Pakistani Mayday has been delivered to them- but then came back to finish their mess- 
Honestly 2 hour duration is too long for Apache to stay-
Maybe they were there to made sure- Maximum Damage has been inflicted on PA-

I think-
"The message to PA has been sent"-
What type of message only our higher ups know- believe me they got it-


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## lem34

Asim Aquil said:


> Tell me, if you are being attacked by a guy much bigger than you. You have gun, that can shoot him down, wouldn't you fire? Then why is it different when someone comes to attack your soldiers? Your soldiers' life must be protected. Chahay koi bhi hai, kill the bloody attacker down.
> 
> Its not like they didn't have the capability to shoot down the choppers. The ISPR report pointed out that they didn't have the capability for aerial defence. After the Osama raid, this is criminal negligence on the part of the leadership. After being reported that the checkpost has come under attack and not scrambling the PAF in defence - thats plain criminal.



I hear what you have to say. But americans have never launched what seems on this occasion to be a delibrate atack. They are supposed to be allies the fuel in those copters prob came over our land. So defend against allies??


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Ok, back to the discussion without going around in circles:

We have the PA facts about what happened - NATO will not accept that it acted 'deliberately', but it will try and provide a 'face saving' explanation for both sides.

An apology, at this point, is likely, and it appears the GoP is willing to return to 'normal' if given an apology.

Comments?

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## lem34

JonAsad said:


> Dont know but the official account is confusing- it did say- they seem to return as if the Pakistani Mayday has been delivered to them- but then came back to finish their mess-
> Honestly 2 hour duration is too long for Apache to stay-
> Maybe they were there to made sure- Maximum Damage has been inflicted on PA-
> 
> I think-
> "The message to PA has been sent"-
> What type of message only our higher ups know- believe me they got it-



whatever americans want they are obviously not getting from our army and ISI.


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## fd24

Aryan_B said:


> agreed jon you are right about the attention seeker. Just wandering if it could be two separate attacks? ie one attack then pause and then a second one? did the two hours claim come from survivors?



I never envisaged this option - i think it could be accepted as a mistake if its a one off - what you are saying is a genuine hard core strategy of knowingly attacking blue on blue. Now thats a bit sickening of a thought.

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> What good is this mere laymanly speculation at this point, might I ask?



Well the cause of the attack IS pertinent, more relevant than "Haw hai, distance from border change hogaya" type non-issues.

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## lem34

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Ok, back to the discussion without going around in circles:
> 
> We have the PA facts about what happened - NATO will not accept that it acted 'deliberately', but it will try and provide a 'face saving' explanation for both sides.
> 
> An apology, at this point, is likely, and it appears the GoP is willing to return to 'normal' if given an apology.
> 
> Comments?



I will be gutted. But the real problem is we do not know the inside track. Clearly the americans are not getting what they want from pakistan army and isi over the last year or so. i am reluctant to play into american hands and start asking PA to do too much. It s enough for me that americans are unhappy. That suggests to me that we are not giving in???


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## r3alist

Asim Aquil said:


> Tell me, if you are being attacked by a guy much bigger than you. You have gun, that can shoot him down, wouldn't you fire? Then why is it different when someone comes to attack your soldiers? Your soldiers' life must be protected. Chahay koi bhi hai, kill the bloody attacker down.
> 
> Its not like they didn't have the capability to shoot down the choppers. The ISPR report pointed out that they didn't have the capability for aerial defence. After the Osama raid, this is criminal negligence on the part of the leadership. After being reported that the checkpost has come under attack and not scrambling the PAF in defence - thats plain criminal.





I don't think these analogies are appropriate.

In this scenario we simply cannot fight fire with fire.

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## 53fd

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Ok, back to the discussion without going around in circles:
> 
> We have the PA facts about what happened - NATO will not accept that it acted 'deliberately', but it will try and provide a 'face saving' explanation for both sides.
> 
> An apology, at this point, is likely, and it appears the GoP is willing to return to 'normal' if given an apology.
> 
> Comments?



This incident is beyond apologies. The US & NATO Forces have been trying to instigate Pakistan, to get a reaction out of it. Pakistan must respond hard to this incident, without allowing a complete breakdown of relations with the US/NATO (which, in that scenario, would result in an outright, open confrontation between NATO/US & Pakistan).

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## JonAsad

Aryan_B said:


> whatever americans want they are obviously not getting from our army and ISI.



We can only hope it stays like this- but without any more such incidents-
What more we need apart from an apology is reinsurance which Amrika will not give-
ISAF- ANA- now NATO- every one is getting a piece of PA-


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## lem34

superkaif said:


> I never envisaged this option - i think it could be accepted as a mistake if its a one off - what you are saying is a genuine hard core strategy of knowingly attacking blue on blue. Now thats a bit sickening of a thought.



the minute that I heard that it was two outposts i did not feel that it was an accident. The reason for two outposts means that they are separate and so two attacks? coincidence no sir I doubt it. But when you take into account the last 12 months of villification and demonisation of ISI by west it makes you feel that our army and isi are doing what they think is best for pakistan. we should not expect detailed explanations all the time. I would rather trust army leaders than zardari and co

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## Guest01

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Ok, back to the discussion without going around in circles:
> 
> We have the PA facts about what happened - NATO will not accept that it acted 'deliberately', but it will try and provide a 'face saving' explanation for both sides.
> 
> An apology, at this point, is likely, and it appears the GoP is willing to return to 'normal' if given an apology.
> 
> Comments?



Strange, how come Pakistan Army's statement get credibility while NATO's does not? The very fact that PAF was not scrambled in a sustained air assault to counter which, ground troops were sent in, is suspect in itself? Who in the right mind will send ground troops when they know that enemy air assets could be in the vicinity? Too many holes in what Pakistani Army is claiming. Why not wait till NATO's investigation is complete and then comment on it? Regarding apology, in fact I believe that showing inclination to give in even before the apology is offered is a sign of weakness. At least let the apology come in first. So far there has been nothing of an apology by any NATO member.

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## Hulk

If it happens then in future these blockade will not be taken seriously.


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## 53fd

Guest01 said:


> Strange, how come Pakistan Army's statement get credibility while NATO's does not?



There has been no statement made by the NATO that comprehensively explains its official position. Hence, your claim is wrong.



> So far there has been nothing of an apology by any NATO member.



No, but Turkey did condemn the act, saying it was a violation & breach of Pakistan's sovereignty. So did Russia & China.

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## JonAsad

bilalhaider said:


> This incident is beyond apologies. The US & NATO Forces have been trying to instigate Pakistan, to get a reaction out of it. *Pakistan must respond hard to this incident*, *without allowing a complete breakdown of relations with the US/NATO* (which, in that scenario, would result in an outright, open confrontation between NATO/US & Pakistan).



We had NATO supply lines- The leverage- what more we have to even give a hard response?-
There are only two ways- Succumb- or Open Confrontation-
Later is the honorable way in my opinion-


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## lem34

Guest01 said:


> Strange, how come Pakistan Army's statement get credibility while NATO's does not? The very fact that PAF was not scrambled in a sustained air assault to counter which, ground troops were sent in, is suspect in itself? Who in the right mind will send ground troops when they know that enemy air assets could be in the vicinity? Too many holes in what Pakistani Army is claiming. Why not wait till NATO's investigation is complete and then comment on it? Regarding apology, in fact I believe that showing inclination to give in even before the apology is offered is a sign of weakness. At least let the apology come in first. So far there has been nothing of an apology by any NATO member.



well its is unusual and unlikely that two posts attacked is an accident and even the british press were reporting survivors suggesting that PA version was true. But this is not the first time . I think the last 12 months Nato and western press have been demonising PA and ISI. this is a steady escalation prob americans are frustrated at not getting what they want in afghanistan and want as they say pakistan to do more etc

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## Guest01

bilalhaider said:


> There has been no statement made by the NATO that comprehensively explains its official position. Hence, your claim is wrong.a.



LoL, how come my claim is wrong. I myself said that wait for NATO's investigation result. They have anyway not made a comprehensive statement. How can you already negate what they are going to say? You have to at least first know what they say!



bilalhaider said:


> No, but Turkey did condemn the act, saying it was a violation & breach of Pakistan's sovereignty. So did Russia & China.



How does it matter what Russia or China or Turkey are saying. They may condemn anything. You need to wait for NATO's statement and see if an apology comes across or an allegation.

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## Rafi

According to Pakistani Military sources, they believe that this action can only point to two conclusions, either ISAF are so incompetent that they can't tell their *** from their elbow, or this was a deliberate provocation in order to provoke a strong military response which will allow them to conduct military operations in NWA. According to all available information, including from sources within ISAF, Afghan intelligence, ANA and politicians within A-Stan, they are leaning towards the latter.

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## JonAsad

r3alist said:


> In this scenario we simply cannot fight fire with fire.



They know this aswell- what other options we have?-
Improve our economy- system- become independent and stand on our feet- seems like a good one- 
But-
What Now?-
We cannot let them harass us like this-


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## Guest01

Aryan_B said:


> well its is unusual and unlikely that two posts attacked is an accident and even the british press were reporting survivors suggesting that PA version was true. But this is not the first time . I think the last 12 months Nato and western press have been demonising PA and ISI. this is a steady escalation prob americans are frustrated at not getting what they want in afghanistan and want as they say pakistan to do more etc



Exactly. A coordinate assault on 2 posts must have its reasons. The locations of the posts are given to NATO. Hence in the light of the information and the claim of fire emanating from these check posts, it is important to wait for NATO's statement. Regarding the British Press, I think that if on one hand BBC's report can be considered as malafide then not a good idea to pick and choose press that likes Pakistan. Regarding the Amercians frustration that is not a surprise. An authority as high as General Mullen testified that Haqqani group is a veritable arm of ISI and ISI and Pakistan Army is supporting and mentoring Haqqani group who are in turn killing American soldiers and NATO / Afghan soldiers. The American's frustration is as understandable as is current Pakistani frustration. The soldiers of each nation are dear to the respective countries. Would you not agree on that?

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## 53fd

JonAsad said:


> We had NATO supply lines- The leverage- what more we have to even give a hard response?-
> There are only two ways- Succumb- or Open Confrontation-



I do not agree with this. There are more than two ways of responding to this. The US has been trying to coax/cajole Iran into action as well, but they haven't done so. They have not been succumbed by the US like Pakistan has. Neither has there been an open confrontation between the US & Iran, & I doubt it will. 

Pakistan has a lot more leverage than just the supply lines. It is probably most important country in the 'Afghan end game'. 

What Pakistan must do is the following:

a) Build itself a stake in Afghanistan without burning bridges. 

b) Not be *seen* to be supporting militants in Afghanistan.

c) It should clamp down hard on US presence in Pakistan. Whether that is the Shamsi Airbase, the Jacobabad Airbase that is being allegedly used, all CIA networks inside of Pakistan.

d) It should permanently, or at least indefinitely close the supply lines. Last time they closed the supply lines for about 2 weeks, the US got its bravado handed back to it, & apologized. This time though, the apology will not be enough. This attack is inexcusable, & has far reaching implications than just this incident.

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## VelocuR

Please anyone tell me, how Pakistan will improve communication systems from NATO helicopters attacks? 

It was full of jam or destroy by NATO within seconds. PAF officers probably didn't recieve the warning messages from communication systems.


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## Rafi

Serious consideration is being given to tighten the noose around Afghan transit trade.

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## r3alist

JonAsad said:


> They know this aswell- what other options we have?-
> Improve our economy- system- become independent and stand on our feet- seems like a good one-
> But-
> What Now?-
> We cannot let them harass us like this-




pakistan has other options of strength, there are different types of warfares, it doesnt have to be conventional.

having said that, the said thing is we are talking about fighting the us when really we want good relations with the us, unfortunately its become a zero sum game.


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## lem34

JonAsad said:


> We had NATO supply lines- The leverage- what more we have to even give a hard response?-
> There are only two ways- Succumb- or Open Confrontation-
> Later is the honorable way in my opinion-



Jon let me ask you something? If we had open warfare yes it would be honorable. We would certainly hurt americans and cause them damage. But pakistanis would suffer probably tens of thousand deaths. Clearly if things were left to zardari and co they would sell pakistan and every pakistani tommorow to america. What gives me faith is in PA and ISI is that they may not be outwardly showing they are against america but america clearly believes that isi and pa are there enemy. Last 4 years sinc they told musharaff to get democracy etc they have not got what they want. If PA and ISI was a lap dog of americans as some indians suggest and some of our forum members why are americans attacking pa and isi at every chance they get

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## Rafi

bilalhaider said:


> I do not agree with this. There are more than two ways of responding to this. The US has been trying to coax/cajole Iran into action as well, but they haven't done so. They have not been succumbed by the US like Pakistan has. Neither has there been an open confrontation between the US & Iran, & I doubt it will.
> 
> Pakistan has a lot more leverage than the supply lines. It is probably most important country in the 'Afghan end game'.
> 
> What Pakistan must do is the following:
> 
> a) Build itself a stake in Afghanistan without burning bridges.
> 
> b) Not be *seen* (different from perception) to be supporting militants in Afghanistan.
> 
> c) It should clamp down hard on US presence in Pakistan. Whether that is the Shamsi Airbase, the Jacobabad Airbase that is being allegedly used, all CIA networks inside of Pakistan.
> 
> d) It should permanently, or at least indefinitely close the supply lines. Last time they closed the supply lines for about 2 weeks, the US got its bravado handed back to it, & apologized. This time though, the apology will not be enough. This attack is inexcusable, & has far reaching implications than just this incident.



We have many options, open confrontation - is not in the interest of either ISAF or Pakistan.

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## Guest01

RaptorRX707 said:


> Please anyone tell me, how Pakistan will improve communication systems from NATO helicopters attacks?
> 
> It was full of jam or destroy by NATO within seconds. PAF officers probably didn't recieve the warning messages from communication systems.



LoL, then how was the ground troop suppliment sent in. At least read the original Pakistani Army statement first bro.


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## SparklingCrescent



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## 53fd

Guest01 said:


> LoL, how come my claim is wrong. I myself said that wait for NATO's investigation result. They have anyway not made a comprehensive statement. How can you already negate what they are going to say? You have to at least first know what they say!



I am not negating what they are going to say in the coming weeks, I am saying that you were wrong in your assumption that the Pakistani Army's statement gets credibility here from the members, whereas NATO's statement doesn't.


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## Guest01

bilalhaider said:


> I am not negating what they are going to say in the coming weeks, I am saying that you were wrong in your assumption that the Pakistani Army's statement gets credibility here from the members, whereas NATO's statement doesn't.



LoL, what is the whole debate about then? Did you see what I actually responded to? Is that not giving Pakistan Army's statement credibility even before NATO's statement is not out. Pakistan Army may be having something to hide and may be very well lying for all we know. Best to wait for NATO's statement and sit tight till then. However, if new information comes to light in the interim then that could add to the opinion either way.

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## 53fd

Guest01 said:


> LoL, what is the whole debate about then? Did you see what I actually responded to? Is that not giving Pakistan Army's statement credibility even before NATO's statement is not out. Pakistan Army may be having something to hide and may be very well lying for all we know. Best to wait for NATO's statement and sit tight till then. However, if new information comes to light in the interim then that could add to the opinion either way.



Pakistan's official version that has come out is consistent. When NATO's official version comes out in the form of a comprehensive statement, we will discuss it as well, & test it for its consistency.


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## lem34

bilalhaider said:


> I do not agree with this. There are more than two ways of responding to this. The US has been trying to coax/cajole Iran into action as well, but they haven't done so. They have not been succumbed by the US like Pakistan has. Neither has there been an open confrontation between the US & Iran, & I doubt it will.
> 
> Pakistan has a lot more leverage than the supply lines. It is probably most important country in the 'Afghan end game'.
> 
> What Pakistan must do is the following:
> 
> a) Build itself a stake in Afghanistan without burning bridges.
> 
> b) Not be *seen* (different from perception) to be supporting militants in Afghanistan.
> 
> c) It should clamp down hard on US presence in Pakistan. Whether that is the Shamsi Airbase, the Jacobabad Airbase that is being allegedly used, all CIA networks inside of Pakistan.
> 
> d) It should permanently, or at least indefinitely close the supply lines. Last time they closed the supply lines for about 2 weeks, the US got its bravado handed back to it, & apologized. This time though, the apology will not be enough. This attack is inexcusable, & has far reaching implications than just this incident.


 
I think there target is china. what they want to do is emasculate and reduce pakistan into such a situation that india does not have to worry about pak. They want rid of PA ISI etc. thats why they encourage india in afghanistan. they want to use indians as fodder in an eventual showdown with china. I hope i am wrong but in the history of empires rising and falling there is allways war & bloodshed when the batton gets passed on. In 1935-36 America was preparing to attack brits. Had germany not attacked america would have attacked Brits. So its about whether america can accept the new world order where it is no longer the empire and china is gracefully or after a war???

How America planned to destroy BRITAIN in 1930 with bombing raids and chemical weapons | Mail Online

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## r3alist

Guest01 said:


> LoL, what is the whole debate about then? Did you see what I actually responded to? Is that not giving Pakistan Army's statement credibility even before NATO's statement is not out. Pakistan Army may be having something to hide and may be very well lying for all we know. Best to wait for NATO's statement and sit tight till then. However, if new information comes to light in the interim then that could add to the opinion either way.




the nato statement will also hide things, therefore you must conclude by your own logic that there will remain holes in both stories and maybe the full truth will never be known.


nato has hardly said a thing, which is odd, normally you hear plenty of leaks.


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## Rafi

bilalhaider said:


> Pakistan's official version that has come out is consistent. When NATO's official version comes out in the form of a comprehensive statement, we will discuss it as well, & test it for its consistency.



ISPR's official statements are not contradictory at all. It is ISAF that has been flip flopping, they now are claiming it was a set up by the talibannis.


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## 53fd

Aryan_B said:


> I think there target is china. what they want to do is emasculate and reduce pakistan into such a situation that india does not have to worry about pak. They want rid of PA ISI etc. thats why they encourage india in afghanistan. they want to use indians as fodder in an eventual showdown with china. I hope i am wrong but in the history of empires rising and falling there is allways war & bloodshed when the batton gets passed on. In 1935-36 America was preparing to attack brits. Had germany not attacked america would have attacked Brits. So its about whether america can accept the new world order where it is no longer the empire and china is gracefully or after a war???



Yes, the target is eventually China. China is just getting too influential worldwide, & the US has been left whimpering. They are trying to expand their military presence in Asia Pacific to counter China's, & what is about to happen in Australia is testament to that. Along with the fact that they are expanding (military) ties with other nations in the Asia Pacific, to counter China's influence there. 

This incident was a deliberate, targeted attack on Pakistan. The war inside Afghanistan itself isn't as important as the strategic geopolitics of the region, of the US wanting to get a permanent presence & influence in Afghanistan; & not having Pakistan as an obstacle that can ally itself with China. This is the crux of the issue, & the war itself (in Afghanistan) is a very small piece of the puzzle for the US.

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## JonAsad

Aryan_B said:


> Jon let me ask you something? If we had open warfare yes it would be honorable. We would certainly hurt americans and cause them damage. But pakistanis would suffer probably tens of thousand deaths. Clearly if things were left to zardari and co they would sell pakistan and every pakistani tommorow to america. What gives me faith is in PA and ISI is that they may not be outwardly showing they are against america but america clearly believes that isi and pa are there enemy. Last 4 years sinc they told musharaff to get democracy etc they have not got what they want. If PA and ISI was a lap dog of americans as some indians suggest and some of our forum members why are americans attacking pa and isi at every chance they get


 
By Open Confrontation- i didn't meant War-
The supply route will be reopened in near future- today there was an indication of it-
Shamsi will remain under amrikan control- 
Drones will still fly over Pakistan killing 10 Pakistanis to 1 terrorist-

A hard stand on all fronts- as bilal said while keeping a working relationship with Amrika-

After every incident and subsequent mumbling amrikan apology- 
We will keep opening the supply route- Shamsi will remain under amrikan control- It will keep killing our army personal-
I am afraid things will go back to normal in current scenario like it did after RD- like on other attacks on PA posts-

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## lem34

^^^^^ clearly pakistan army isi is not prepared to sell out chinese. I believ chinese are not stupid either we are a relatively cheap low cost option to keep india down

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## lem34

JonAsad said:


> By Open Confrontation- i didn't meant War-
> The supply route will be reopened in near future- today there was an indication of it-
> Shamsi will remain under amrikan control-
> Drones will still fly over Pakistan killing 10 Pakistanis to 1 terrorist-
> 
> A hard stand on all fronts- as bilal said while keeping a working relationship with Amrika-
> 
> After every incident and subsequent mumbling amrikan apology-
> We will keep opening the supply route- Shamsi will remain under amrikan control- It will keep killing our army personal-
> I am afraid things will go back to normal in current scenario like it did after RD- like on other attacks on PA posts-



obama is committed to taking bulk of american troops home. They are trying to build india but they are and will not succeed. Afghanistan china india and pakistan will be here long after americans have gone. we are on the right side inida is on the wrong side. We have to be patient be united and lets hope imran proves as good as leader as he did when he was captain

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## VelocuR

Guest01 said:


> LoL, then how was the ground troop suppliment sent in. At least read the original Pakistani Army statement first bro.



I am very busy lately, again I don't follow Indian opinions.



> Please anyone tell me, how Pakistan will improve communication systems from NATO helicopters attacks?
> 
> It was full of jam or destroy by NATO within seconds. PAF officers probably didn't recieve the warning messages from communication systems ???



Pakistanis, please explain to my question above


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## 53fd

Aryan_B said:


> ^^^^^ clearly pakistan army isi is not prepared to sell out chinese. I believ chinese are not stupid either we are a relatively cheap low cost option to keep india down



China will look out for Pakistan when events transpiring in Pakistan can pose a threat to China's geopolitical, strategic interests in the region. The US drone campaign in North Waziristan will not alarm China, but a gross violation of Pakistan's national sovereignty (OBL raid, this incident) will, as it will be perceived by the Chinese that the US can penetrate through Pakistan's defenses, which can be worrying for China in terms of its geopolitical, strategic interests in the region.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Few more incident like that can force Pak Army to revolt against its sold out generals - that&#8217;s what history tells us. Pro-China and anti US General might win the hearts and minds of rest of the army.
Musharraf did fire few in his time who were against US slavery and were religious soilders


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## Meengla

iPhone said:


> what's taking them that long? waiting for the public emotions to calm down? waiting on Pak's report so they can prepare thers occordingly with a believable narrative? they know what they did, they have the report ready, it was a hanful of interviews they had to conduct and a little forensics. now they'd be amending and editing it with proper public and international mood swings.



All good points. Especially spot on about the delaying the report to cool-off and to start a media spin. The Masters of the Universe are the Masters of the Global Propaganda War a la Goebbels.

Back to the topic:
Like Dawn.com 's Mahir Ali who wrote recently, I too find it hard to believe that Nato would deliberately attack a Pakistani post where soldiers were SLEEPING in their tents. What is the gain for Nato? May be this was really a Taliban ploy to cause fire fight between Nato and PA?
But then, to the dozens of mothers who lost their loved ones it matters little. Facts are that the soldiers died inside the Pakistani territory and that at least some of them died while sleeping in their tents; this hardly sounds like some Pakistani officer giving marching orders to soldiers to fire toward Afghanistan!
My guess is that the sustained propaganda war against Pakistan has resulted in such low opinions of Pakistani lives that some young lads commanding helis--lads used to shoot 'enemies' in video games with glee and satisfaction--saw it immaterial to check themselves. 'Pakis' are the new 'gooks', the new 'saveges', the new 'commies'. So let's go Turkey shooting, boys!

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## CENTCOM

Last weekends tragic incident has everyone on edge. Before the facts are in, rumor mills are at work and creating more disinformation. The fact is that no new clashes occurred at the Pakistan-Afghan border, and this has been confirmed both by our own officials and ISPR. 

We understand that emotions are running high, but we should not let fiction dictate our minds. A tragedy occurred, where precious lives were lost, and the whole incident is under high level review. Let us all wait for the results and then form our opinions. Although it may not be business as usual, we still have to fight together an enemy who has been attacking relentlessly. Today a peace committee member in Hangu was killed in a targeted bombing. Would it be wise to let the terrorists continue with their evil agenda? 


Maj David Nevers
DET-United States Central Command
U.S. Central Command

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## 53fd

CENTCOM said:


> Last weekend&#8217;s tragic incident has everyone on edge. Before the facts are in, rumor mills are at work and creating more disinformation. The fact is that no new clashes occurred at the Pakistan-Afghan border, and this has been confirmed both by our own officials and ISPR.
> 
> We understand that emotions are running high, but we should not let fiction dictate our minds. A tragedy occurred, where precious lives were lost, and the whole incident is under high level review. Let us all wait for the results and then form our opinions. Although it may not be business as usual, we still have to fight together an enemy who has been attacking relentlessly. Today a peace committee member in Hangu was killed in a targeted bombing. Would it be wise to let the terrorists continue with their evil agenda?
> 
> 
> Maj David Nevers
> DET-United States Central Command
> U.S. Central Command



While I agree with the sentiment & need to fight terrorism, it is clearly the US that has undermined the relationship, created the mistrust, baselessly accused Pakistan of being complicit in aiding militants, & violated the sovereignty of Pakistan. It is the US media that treads on conspiracy theories & the rumor treadmill against Pakistan, it was the US media that first reported this incident today, it was the ISPR that flat out denied this incident took place.


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## HavocHeaven

Peregrine said:


> Long story short........ American aid is Pakistan Army's life line & the military establishment in Pakistan would never go against the American interests............. I know, This isn't something, we Pakistani's would like to hear, but that's the bitter reality.



You are prolly right. In the end ppl have to be realistic. 
It reminds me of Clinton's ads: It's the economy&#65292;Stupid!
Both Pakistan and China should focus more on building up domestic economy than anything else.
IMHO military expenditure is not of the highest priority.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

According to this news there was another attack but hot line stopped it

Pakistan resumes some cooperation: Nato | World | DAWN.COM


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## Gin ka Pakistan

If Pakistan starts the supply line again then a banner should be put on the crossing saying *"we sold the blood of our hero's for $$$" *and I will change my Nick to *Gin Ka Shameless Pakistan *

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## Mercenary

Omar1984 said:


> Al Qadea is said to be in its weakest state and Al Qaeda itself is a creation of CIA.



Can you please answer the question.

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------




KarachiPunk said:


> USA forces are the biggest terrorist, they just killed the 'allies', where are you sir?? your head in the sand???
> 
> alquaeda??? alquaeda is every where, last i saw the news abt AQ in yemen



So in other words you have no answer.

Thanks for proving my point.

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## Rafi

*NO* new exchange, lets everyone calm down and take a deep breath.

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## Developereo

Two points:

- there may have been fire exchanged between Pak and Afghan forces so, technically, NATO was not involved.

- Pak is no match for even one of the NATO countries, let alone the alliance. Please do not propose military 'solutions' that will destroy Pakistan. Wisdom lies in engaging the opponent at his weakest point, not his strongest.

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## Safriz

Both CENTCOM and ISPR say that no new clashes along Pak-Afghan border...
Thread should be closed....


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## W.11

CENTCOM said:


> Last weekend&#8217;s tragic incident has everyone on edge. Before the facts are in, rumor mills are at work and creating more disinformation. The fact is that no new clashes occurred at the Pakistan-Afghan border, and this has been confirmed both by our own officials and ISPR.
> 
> We understand that emotions are running high, but we should not let fiction dictate our minds. A tragedy occurred, where precious lives were lost, and the whole incident is under high level review. Let us all wait for the results and then form our opinions. Although it may not be business as usual, we still have to fight together an enemy who has been attacking relentlessly. Today a peace committee member in Hangu was killed in a targeted bombing. Would it be wise to let the terrorists continue with their evil agenda?
> 
> 
> Maj David Nevers
> DET-United States Central Command
> U.S. Central Command



lol the bot read the name was funny, major nevers

---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 AM ----------




CENTCOM said:


> Last weekends tragic incident has everyone on edge. Before the facts are in, rumor mills are at work and creating more disinformation. The fact is that no new clashes occurred at the Pakistan-Afghan border, and this has been confirmed both by our own officials and ISPR.
> 
> We understand that emotions are running high, but we should not let fiction dictate our minds. A tragedy occurred, where precious lives were lost, and the whole incident is under high level review. Let us all wait for the results and then form our opinions. Although it may not be business as usual, we still have to fight together an enemy who has been attacking relentlessly. Today a peace committee member in Hangu was killed in a targeted bombing. Would it be wise to let the terrorists continue with their evil agenda?
> 
> 
> Maj David Nevers
> DET-United States Central Command
> U.S. Central Command



lol the bot read the name was funny, major nevers


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## Omar1984

*Nato apology will not be enough: Khar*








ISLAMABAD: Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar has said that the Nato attack on the Pakistani check post was not an accident and "only an apology would not be enough."

Khar however added that Pakistan was not waiting for an apology

The minister was briefing the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Relations on Wednesday. 

Pakistan cannot see its soldiers being killed by allied forces anymore. There is an established mechanism between Pakistan and allied forces working in Afghanistan regarding movement on the border but Nato authorities didn't inform us about their activity before the incident, Khar said. 

The foreign minister said Pakistan's role in Afghan peace efforts had been accepted by all but not appreciated and coalition forces had crossed red lines several times.

On the issue of the controversial memo, Khar told the meeting held under the chairmanship of Senator Saleem Saifullah Khan that the Foreign Office had no record regarding the memo sent to Admiral Mike Mullen.

Khar noted that Mansoor Ijaz had tried to malign the Pakistan Army and ISI in the controversial memo issue. 

Khar was of the view that former ambassador Husain Haqqani must be given a chance to present his arguments before a court of law.


Nato apology will not be enough: Khar

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## Safriz

KarachiPunk said:


> lol the bot read the name was funny, major nevers
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> lol the bot read the name was funny, major nevers



No its not a bot...this matter has been discussed and resolved in previous threads..This is a CENTCOM representative posting here.


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## Developereo

And so the 'principled stance' degenerates into a momentary tantrum.

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## Machoman

Ahmad Mukhtar go F yourself. Let people kill your family member and say sorry after that is that going to work?

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## Safriz

Developereo said:


> And so the 'principled stance' degenerates into a momentary tantrum.



or a tactical statement i would say..
they know...we know and everybody knows that NATO / USA wont apologize.

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## Mercenary

Pakistan should request for economic, military, financial and infrastructure concessions from NATO powers.


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## Safriz

Developereo said:


> And so the 'principled stance' degenerates into a momentary tantrum.



or a tactical statement i would say..
they know...we know and everybody knows that NATO / USA wont apologize.


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## Developereo

Omar1984 said:


> *Nato apology will not be enough: Khar*



*How freaking hard is it to make an unambiguous crystal clear statement that all NATO transit is terminated UNCONDITIONALLY and PERMANENTLY?*

These idiots think they are acting coy, but its all too clear they are wagging their tails like dogs waiting for the right treat from NATO.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Mercenary said:


> Pakistan should request for economic, military, financial and infrastructure concessions from NATO powers.


WTO member will block any concessions plus any aid will got in corruption.

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## desiman

lol what did I say, all this drama is the usual episode that happens after an attack for about 1-2 weeks or so. Pakistan says a lot but fails to do anything, the US knows that very well too.

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## Mercenary

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> WTO member will block any concessions plus any aid will got in corruption.



It can be one on one concessions.

Like we can to Germany, we will attend Bonn conference but agree to sell us those U-214 Submarines.

Or from USA, we can ask to give us more F-16s, and Super Cobra Gunships and some investment in our Electrical Infrastructure or give us loans to build dams, etc.

We cannot afford to make enemies of NATO when we have India right next door to us.


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## Rafi

*Some Facts on the Ground*

1) The line coming out of the US, after initial findings of the inquiry, is that Tab's tried to get a blue on blue and succeeded. 
2) The engagement between USSF's and ANA Commando's was in Afghanistan, the inquiry is baffled to how Volcano was attacked.
3) There seems to have been negligence on the part of the American Commander who acceded to the request of CAS.
3) USSF's relied on Afghan commando's. Who fuked up big time. Not my words.


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## W.11

Mercenary said:


> Pakistan should request for economic, military, financial and infrastructure concessions from NATO powers.



HUH, concessions, request?? do you even learn from english dictionary before choosing the words, go take admission in primary school


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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Ok, back to the discussion without going around in circles:
> 
> We have the PA facts about what happened - *NATO will not accept that it acted 'deliberately', but it will try and provide a 'face saving' explanation for both sides.*
> 
> An apology, at this point, is likely, and it appears the GoP is willing to return to 'normal' if given an apology.
> 
> Comments?



AM, that statement of yours, your usage of _"will"_... since you have been asking everyone how they are sure that things are not the same as stated solely by the ISPR, may I ask you, how come you are so darn sure that the NATO will not accept it as its deliberate act? 

How are you so sure that the explanation provided by NATO is going to be a "face saving" exercise, and not the truth, or somewhere inbetween? Your usage of that term, face saving, goes on to show that you have wholeheartedly bought the self-constructed idea that NATO forces came out with the sole purpose of pounding that post and killing those soldiers. 

If so, kindly tell us what purpose of NATO, this act serves? What is the motive behind this preplanned deliberate act? 

From all that happened, what I notice is that it (the operation) has gone to act against the convenience of the NATO - in the most expected way you can see - blockade of supplies, closure of Shamsi, boycotting Bonn, threats to sever ties etc. So why would NATO deliberately axe its own leg (as we say it in Hindi). It is something even a cognitively challenged NATO soldier could guess. So, if it was preplanned, why did they do it?

------------

After you are done with my aforementioned rant, please consider this:

I remember it happened. Was 2008/2009 - that I do not remember well. It was in the same area, as those posts. NATO forces had committed a similar mistake. About a dozen (perhaps a little less, 9-10) Pakistani soldiers died. Barely any news media covered it. Result - no public outrage. No blocking of NATO supplies. No statements by ISPR. Business as usual.

I will have to look for it online, but for now, you have to take my word - I remember reading about it, and I am sure that is not the only time such a mistake happened, as it is bound to happen frequently in every single war.

Now I want you to look at it from my point of view - The PA will take the pounding, as long as it is in its own interests, as long as it does not come out in the media. 

So what happens when it comes out in the media? - Spreading of such news among the population can infuriate the people against the Army. The Army too needs the public support to stay in power, even more so in this modern world driven on the engines of quick and affordable communication systems. 

If people see the Army as weak, it will lose its charisma, its power. So, when people are enraged, to pacify them, to feed them the proofs of its power, the Army acts. Since the Army does not want to act against its own interests, it will mostly act in harmless ways and we will see statements (like the ones we saw coming from the ISPR) and cosmetic changes (temporary blockade of supplies, closure of already dormant Shamsi airbase, waiting for apologies etc.), and that is all that will happen. 

The fact is, Pakistan, and Pakistani Army, both have more to gain with the presence of NATO forces in Afghanistan. Blockade of supply lines through Pakistan is putting more pressure on the US, but a quick flight of the NATO from Afghanistan will help TTP and the likes to consolidate quickly, and stretch the PA way beyond it is at the moment. 

So, about this reaction of the PA - Apart from simply pacifying the public by showing such outrage through ISPR, what other purpose would it serve for the PA to block supply lines and sever its ties with the US?

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Mercenary said:


> It can be one on one concessions.
> 
> Like we can to Germany, we will attend Bonn conference but agree to sell us those U-214 Submarines.
> 
> Or from USA, we can ask to give us more F-16s, and Super Cobra Gunships and some investment in our Electrical Infrastructure or give us loans to build dams, etc.
> 
> 
> We cannot afford to make enemies of NATO when we have India right next door to us.



No spares and all be junk. history tells us that in wars west stopped all the spares.


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## Safriz

At the moment the supply route is closed...Can we save our sarcasm / taunts and all negative sentiments / comments for AFTER the supply route opens?

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## Rafi

AM is very close, to AAZ, you can bet that any statement from him, is what our erstwhile president is thinking, but NO this time an apology is not enough, the Pakistani nation will not accept it.

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## 53fd

With not even a statement coming out from Asif Zardari condemning this incident, you can see what he is thinking, & this can create 'faultlines' in the civilian administration.

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## Rafi

Breaking News.....Afghan transit trade, could be under threat. There are some persons within the policy making circle, hellbent on punishing Afghanistan as a state. The PM also told Karzai that we hold the sovereign nation of Afghanistan responsible for the forces she is hosting on her soil. 

This could be the next steps taken - if Pakistani concerns are not handled to our satisfaction, although there is opposition to this, as it will hit ordinary Afghans too.

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## Rafi

bilalhaider said:


> With not even a statement coming out from Asif Zardari condemning this incident, you can see what he is thinking, & this can create 'faultlines' in the civilian administration.



BH bro, the President through AM also tried to put the blame for the Memogate affair on the PM, by saying he is responsible for foreign affairs.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

In every international news media at the end paragraph, they say Pakistan will give up as its so dependent on westren aid , In reality its the one percent of Pakistani ruling class who are dependent on west.


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## Safriz

^^^ Whoever fukd up big time..It was USAF who bombed the check posts??


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## 53fd

Rafi said:


> BH bro, the President through AM also tried to put the blame for the Memogate affair on the PM, by saying he is responsible for foreign affairs.


 
I think it further reinforces the notion that Zardari is a US stooge/puppet, & nothing else.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

desiman said:


> lol what did I say, all this drama is the usual episode that happens after an attack for about 1-2 weeks or so. Pakistan says a lot but fails to do anything, the US knows that very well too.



Woo the whole world thinks so low of Pakistan as the ruling class is for sale

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## Rafi

bilalhaider said:


> I think it further reinforces the notion that Zardari is a US stooge/puppet, & nothing else.



His billions of dollars worth of assets abroad are his Achilles heal, I don't agree about everything Mr IK says, but one thing that I like is his promise to enact laws, preventing politicians from running for public office, with outside wealth.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

unless Afghanistan has no control over its NDS, it's hashish army (oh wait) or anti-Pakistan elements operating even within state branches in Afghanistan ---we should hold Afghanistan (as a state) accountable.

so called allies do the same to us, we have nothing to lose

I hate to sound callous, but last week's incident was a wake-up call -- a stab in the back with salt and alcohol to follow.....Unless the leaders and concerned parties become more assertive in policy matters, there wont be any major paradigm change. 

It's not "using" the incident; it's called not letting those brave soldiers (or the 14 others before them) die in vain. 


Cooperation with Pakistan should be CONTINGENT only; these people can't use the "aid" card anymore since most of the aid is either not effective, or its suspended entirely. 


no amount of aid or 'reassuring statements' can be enough to deviate us from our national interests......


Pakistan be damned as long as there are leaders who don't take nation's interests to heart; Pakistan be damned as long as there are leaders who confide in foreigner officials (and their bank accounts) from powerful countries before confiding in their own damn people.


NATO should ensure that they never allow things to get to a point of no return; because otherwise things could (and will) get ugly REAL fast. If "taming" this region is their goal, then they are f*cking up.

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## 53fd

Rafi said:


> Breaking News.....Afghan transit trade, could be under threat. There are some persons within the policy making circle, hellbent on punishing Afghanistan as a state. The PM also told Karzai that we hold the sovereign nation of Afghanistan responsible for the forces she is hosting on her soil.
> 
> This could be the next steps taken - if Pakistani concerns are not handled to our satisfaction, although there is opposition to this, as it will hit ordinary Afghans too.



I think this is a fitting response from Pakistan to Afghanistan (_"we hold the sovereign nation of Afghanistan responsible for the forces she is hosting on her soil"_).

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Rafi said:


> His billions of dollars worth of assets abroad are his Achilles heal, I don't agree about everything Mr IK says, but one thing that I like is his promise to enact laws, preventing politicians from running for public office, with outside wealth.


White House: Zardari , we will seal all your accounts if you cut our supply lines for long
Zardari: No , I am working on it ,my General told me even he is not in a hurry as a lot in army are pissed off , let the temper go down
White House: Remember the day , you thanked us to put you in power. 
Zardari: well as the nation is busy with this incident , I raised the gas price for IMF.


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## Developereo

safriz said:


> or a tactical statement i would say..
> they know...we know and everybody knows that NATO / USA wont apologize.



The only tactic being used is on the Pakistani public.

Say what you mean, and say it like you mean it. No ifs, ands or buts.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

if Afghanistan's puppet leaders know what is good for them and what's good for its people, they will ensure (with or without their NATO saviours) that not an iota of Afghanistan land is used to engage in anti-Pakistan activity

as it is, the prospects of them hanging from electric poles once their saviours scale-back and withdraw are very high (if history is to repeat itself, which, unfortunately, it does)


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## Rafi

Anatomy of a Deadly NATO Airstrike: The Pakistani Version - TIME

*The Pakistanis are so irate that they have decided to boycott the forthcoming international security conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, despite appeals from Afghan President Hamid Karzai and German Chancellor Angela Merkel. The NATO supply routes to Afghanistan are still closed. If they remain closed for 30 days, NATO forces will find it particularly difficult to obtain the fuel they need. The routes from Karachi are their only supply line for fuel.*

This is the kicker here, we hold a very strong bargaining chip, Russia does not allow POL products to be transported by the NDN. And POL cannot be brought in by Aircraft.

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## 53fd

Afghanistan (or should I say the govt of Afghanistan) need to take a deep, hard look at themselves; they do not have to live with the international forces forever, but they do have to live with Pakistan as its neighbor. Afghanistan will pay a very high price if it engages in anti-Pakistan activity. They need to behave like a sovereign nation, & accept responsibility for everything emanating from their country.

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## Omar1984

Rafi said:


> Anatomy of a Deadly NATO Airstrike: The Pakistani Version - TIME
> 
> *The Pakistanis are so irate that they have decided to boycott the forthcoming international security conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, despite appeals from Afghan President Hamid Karzai and German Chancellor Angela Merkel. The NATO supply routes to Afghanistan are still closed. If they remain closed for 30 days, NATO forces will find it particularly difficult to obtain the fuel they need. The routes from Karachi are their only supply line for fuel.*
> 
> This is the kicker here, we hold a very strong bargaining chip, Russia does not allow POL products to be transported by the NDN. And POL cannot be brought in by Aircraft.



Imran Khan told the PPP government to close the NATO supply route for atleast 6 months. Lets see how long this PPP government closes the NATO supply route, even if they close it for 3 months I'll be surprised.

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## President Camacho

Found a relatively unknown news piece, that most probably talks about the same attack that I mentioned in my previous post:

NATO forces had informed Pak Army of Mohmand operation, says spokesman

thecheers.org *2008-06-12* 03:07:53 

Washington, June 12 :* A spokesman for the US coalition forces operating in Afghanistan has said that Pakistan was informed about the attack on the check post at Mohmand Agency in NWFP, which killed 11 Frontier Corps' troops, and that it was carried out in self-defence.*

Confirming the aerial attack, spokesman for the US-led NATO forces in Afghanistan, Lt. Nathan Perry, said that the attack was carried out after an unmanned aerial system identified anti-Afghan forces firing at coalition forces. "In self-defence, coalition forces fired artillery rounds at the militants," the Dawn quoted Perry as saying.

He added that the coalition forces had come under fire "during an operation that had been previously coordinated with Pakistan". "Shortly after the attack began, coalition forces informed the Pakistan Army that they were being engaged by anti-Afghan forces in a wooded area near the Gora Prai checkpoint," he said.

Lt Perry claimed that an unmanned aerial system identified additional anti-Afghan forces joining the attack against the coalition forces. "*While maintaining positive identification of the enemy, close-air support was then used by coalition forces to gain fire superiority until the threat was eliminated*," the spokesman said and added, "*at no time did coalition ground forces cross into Pakistan.*"

*To a question if missiles and artillery shells fired by coalition forces hit targets inside Pakistan, the spokesman said: "Yes, that's correct."
*
US-led NATO forces have launched several air strikes inside Pakistan's tribal areas over the last year, *but this is the first time that the Pakistan Army has directly blamed US-led NATO forces for killing its soldiers.*

-------------

If we change the date, and the number of dead soldiers, there will be no difference between this strike, and the strike that took place on 26th of last month. Even the events took place at almost the same place - Gora Pai. But nothing happened at that time. Not even talks of blocking the routes, or taking a notice of Shamsi, or any such thing.

Because there's one difference, a big one - This incident rarely got talked in the media, whereas the latest one, we are spending days and nights deliberating over it. The Army has to make sure that people understand it is still in control of the situation. Only that... living up to the larger than life image, that's not easy.

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## AUz

WTF? If NATO apologizes then what? Again business as usal?  I'm pissssssssssssssssseeeeeeeedddddddddddddd

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## Rafi

bilalhaider said:


> Afghanistan (or should I say the govt of Afghanistan) need to take a deep, hard look at themselves; they do not have to live with the international forces forever, but they do have to live with Pakistan as its neighbor. Afghanistan will pay a very high price if it engages in anti-Pakistan activity. They need to behave like a sovereign nation, & accept responsibility for everything emanating from their country.



If they don't want Pakistani interference in their internal affairs, they need to address our legitimate national security interests, if not, then Karzai can cry all he wants. We will do the necessary.

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## Developereo

Rafi said:


> 1) The line coming out of the US, after initial findings of the inquiry, is that Tab's tried to get a blue on blue and succeeded.



Yawn; blame everything on the Taliban. It was a deliberate setup by the Afghans.



Rafi said:


> 2) The engagement between USSF's and ANA Commando's was in Afghanistan, the inquiry is baffled to how Volcano was attacked.



Because the Afghans claimed the fire was coming from the Pakistani posts.



Rafi said:


> 3) There seems to have been negligence on the part of the American Commander who acceded to the request of CAS.



You got that right! Although, since NATO knew the coordinates, and *the helis continued firing even after acknowledging the Pakistani sentries*, the question arises: why did they continue firing for two hours?



Rafi said:


> 3) USSF's relied on Afghan commando's. Who fuked up big time. Not my words.



The Afghans didn't f*ck up. They deliberately fed false information to NATO. It was a set up.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> you want us to start a WAR with the US? if they were indian assets, you would have seen a different reaction!



Yes Pakistan should have started a war with the US.......and killed the Bastards while at it...because Pakistani soldiers did absolutely nothing wrong while Americans did everything wrong.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Rafi said:


> According to Pakistani Military sources, they believe that this action can only point to two conclusions, either ISAF are so incompetent that they can't tell their *** from their elbow, or this was a deliberate provocation in order to provoke a strong military response which will allow them to conduct military operations in NWA. According to all available information, including from sources within ISAF, Afghan intelligence, ANA and politicians within A-Stan, they are leaning towards the latter.


Another thing to consider is that the US budget deficit is ballooning out of control, and most of the options being discussed to cut the deficit are talking about significant cuts to the defence budget in the US.

By deliberately attacking the Pakistani posts, and trying to instigate a military response from Pakistan that would escalate into a military confrontation (albeit limited), perhaps the hope was the Congress and the American public would come together and demur from cutting the defence budget.

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## Rafi

Pak Armed Forces are professional and know that blue-on-blue is an unfortunate part of the fog of war, but our investigations have revealed that in this the case, the sequence of events points to something much more sinister.


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## unicorn



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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Guest01 said:


> LoL, then how was the ground troop suppliment sent in. At least read the original Pakistani Army statement first bro.


If I read the report correctly, the 'reinforcements' were sent from the second neighboring post that saw the first attack occur.


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## Safriz

AUz said:


> WTF? If NATO apologizes then what? Again business as usal?  I'm pissssssssssssssssseeeeeeeedddddddddddddd



Has it happened yet? why you are pisssd in advance?


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## Rafi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Another thing to consider is that the US budget deficit is ballooning out of control, and most of the options being discussed to cut the deficit are talking about significant cuts to the defence budget in the US.
> 
> By deliberately attacking the Pakistani posts, and trying to instigate a military response from Pakistan that would escalate into a military confrontation (albeit limited), perhaps the hope was the Congress and the American public would come together and demur from cutting the defence budget.



They were expecting a stupid cowboy response like from the Iraqis, but Pakistani restraint and sensible reactions have made our position much stronger both internally and externally. 

Watch from 2.25 even the BBC's rottweiler of a journalist Jeremy Paxman is calling the Americans incompetent. 

[video]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9650865.stm[/video]

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

bilalhaider said:


> Afghanistan (or should I say the govt of Afghanistan) need to take a deep, hard look at themselves; they do not have to live with the international forces forever, but they do have to live with Pakistan as its neighbor. Afghanistan will pay a very high price if it engages in anti-Pakistan activity. They need to behave like a sovereign nation, & accept responsibility for everything emanating from their country.


The GoA, ANA, NDS have been 'high' on the 'opium' of NATO/US military power, political support and resources - this US/NATO support has only emboldened the aforementioned Afghan institutions in 'destabilizing Pakistan' and continuously trying to 'poke it in the eye' - had the US really wanted to, it could have made 'Afghan cooperation with Pakistan and Afghan respect for Pakistani interests' very, very clear - but it purposely chose not to, and therefore exacerbated the regional situation.

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## W.11

france:germany type situation with pakistan:afghanistan 

ey afghani


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

President Camacho said:


> If we change the date, and the number of dead soldiers, there will be no difference between this strike, and the strike that took place on 26th of last month. Even the events took place at almost the same place - Gora Pai. But nothing happened at that time. Not even talks of blocking the routes, or taking a notice of Shamsi, or any such thing.
> 
> Because there's one difference, a big one - This incident rarely got talked in the media, whereas the latest one, we are spending days and nights deliberating over it. The Army has to make sure that people understand it is still in control of the situation. Only that... living up to the larger than life image, that's not easy.


There are some significant differences in the environment in Pakistan today, compared to 2008.

The buildup to this attack has seen the Raymond Davis fiasco, the OBL raid, the Mullen rants, Hillary threats, and some major vilification of Pakistan in the Western media. Drone strikes have increased manifold since 2008, and they have also received correspondingly greater coverage and they have caused greater outrage.

In 2008 the military was also just recovering from the Musharraf years and the political parties were ascendant - that has reversed.

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## iPhone

Developereo said:


> The only tactic being used is on the Pakistani public.
> 
> Say what you mean, and say it like you mean it. No ifs, ands or buts.



you know, if that's the case they should've from the get go made a public stance that the incident is under investigation and it could be a mistake, instead of issuing blunt statements that the attack was unprovoked, soldiers were sleeping etc . why rile public's opinion, why make them outrageous only to cower at the end? i dont care about politicians but military is digging it's grave, too with these shinangins. ppl are gonna loose respect for the only institution they're proud of.

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## alimukhtar

our defence minister is a Big SoB bastard........ he came on media after three days and juz talk sh*t..........


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## Pakistanisage

Bond said:


> ISLAMABAD: Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar said on Wednesday that the supply routes for Nato troops will be restored only if Nato apologises for the unprovoked attack that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, Express News reported.
> Mukhtar also said that Shamsi Airbase will be vacated by December 11 and no drone planes would be allowed to fly from the base after that.
> Earlier in a Cabinet Defence committee meeting, Pakistan had decided to ask the US to leave Shamsi Air Base within 15 days and blocked ground supply routes through Pakistan to US forces in Afghanistan.
> Washington was sent notices to vacate the narrow strip located in Balochistan following the deadly Nato attack.
> Three sources, who declined to be identified because of the issues sensitivity, said that US planning was under way to leave the base.
> The cross-border incident escalated tensions between the two countries and the US military is conducting an investigation to find out exactly what happened on the ground. The moves by the Pakistanis to block ground supply routes and the air base were not expected to significantly hinder US operations.
> Read more: natoattack
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 AM ----------
> 
> Supply routes to be restored only if NATO apologises: Ahmad Mukhtar  The Express Tribune





PPP Govt. has a death Wish , I guess......


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## alimukhtar

Pakistanisage said:


> PPP Govt. has a death Wish , I guess......


Yup you are ryt........ 2nd you


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## sputnik

Sorry for off topic but why Vcheng is banned ?

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## Rafi

sputnik said:


> Sorry for off topic but why Vcheng is banned ?



Is he a relative of yours, would explain everything  Just kidding.


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## President Camacho

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> There are some significant differences in the environment in Pakistan today, compared to 2008.
> 
> The buildup to this attack has seen the Raymond Davis fiasco, the OBL raid, the Mullen rants, Hillary threats, and some major vilification of Pakistan in the Western media. Drone strikes have increased manifold since 2008, and they have also received correspondingly greater coverage and they have caused greater outrage.
> 
> In 2008 the military was also just recovering from the Musharraf years and the political parties were ascendant - that has reversed.



AM, with passage of time, new things happen. It is not like a vessel that is waiting to overflow. It is about management. Pacification of the general public is one crucial part of such management. 

Increment in the number of drone strikes per year is no more a significant event than the allowance of such strikes. Public outrage at the first death of a civilian from a drone strike would be any time higher than the 1000th death, or increase in number of strikes.

About Mullen rants and Hillary threats, if they are significant in any way, then it is only because they are consumed by the people of Pakistan too. Such rants, and threats mean nothing in the seriousness of closed door talks and deals between the power-holders. Otherwise tell me, a Mullen rant, or a Hillary threat... can any time be bigger than Armitage saying to Mush that you better do it or we will bomb you to stone age?

Only difference is, words of Armitage were not heard by people of Pakistan. It was only the Army General who heard it, and he was pretty fine with it.

OBL raid is indeed a very very significant event, less because the US came so deep inside, more because the US in its own dirty way showed the world that "look, who was hosting the most wanted man". 

The OBL raid was a much bigger problem for the PA, than for the people of Pakistan (who, much to the dismay of PA, came in the streets to show their solidarity for OBL). Yet, the PA did absolutely nothing, except for mincing the words - because it was content with the fact that within Pakistan, the PA was not demonized by the public.



Now AM, I will tell you about August 20, 1998. US wants Osama, hiding near Kunar/NW area. US warship comes to the Arabian Ocean, fires a Tomahawk, that lands in a Pakistani village, killing about 3 dozen villagers. Nothing in the news. No public drama. Clinton says sorry to Nawaz, who appears unexpectedly understanding of the situation and handles it very politely, in a mature fashion.

Way back in 1998, man it is bigger than OBL raid and any rants or threats or drone strikes. What does Pakistan say or do to the US? Nothing. Why? Because as long as people are not aware, it is all fine. 

Well, it happens in all the countries, you only have to open your eyes. India does it, US does it, Pakistan does it too. Although I personally think that at this time, Pakistan has bit off a chunk tad too big for its throat. Americans do not only have a powerful Army, they also have a very powerful diplomatic, and economic force. And in these fronts, they are the masters of the world. PA should tread these waters more carefully.

-----------


By the way, just found out, you were right about NATO not accepting the attack as deliberate. I just read the confirmation.

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## iPhone

VCheng said:


> It is even sadder to see such an icon being a puppet for the ISI.



yeah, he's a puppet of ISI who pointed finger at the ISI on national television for the murder of Saleem Shehzad. Try harder.

And he's banned?


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## iPhone

Mercenary said:


> You are conflating two things.
> 
> The Afghan Commandos attacked the Pakistani outposts with small arms fire for over 1 hour. The Pak soliders might have identified themselves to those Commandos.
> 
> The Afghans then called in Air Support in which NATO sent in two Apache Gunships who fired the hell fire missiles at the outposts and the attack was over in a matter of minutes.
> 
> Can you please explain why it took Apache Gunships 2 hours to take out two outposts when these same Apaches knocked out Saddam's Radars in the opening phase of the Gulf War in less than 2 minutes. The answer is, it didn't.
> .



the attack came in phases. if you read the report by DGMO. First trip they fired flares, second phase they came and fired at the posts. 45 minutes to an hour later they came again to engage the posts one last time while troops tended to the wounded. The totalality of the event lasted around 2 hours.

There's no mention of engagement with afghan troops in the report. Nato's report is still due. So your arguement holds no weight that our soldeirs were engaged with the afghan side.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it makes no difference because NATOs know --at the end of the day -- that Pakistan (and Iran to a good extent) are the one stakeholder that have what it takes to ensure that once NATO boots are gone (or scaled down) civil war wont ensue in that God-forsaken, cursed country.

so it makes no difference if amrullah saleh types are in power in Afghanistan because we know what will happen to those people once NATOs arent there with their blank cheque-book and protection. 

Pakistan is here to stay. NATO should be viewed as old news; because their dedication to Afghanistan will be zilch once they have a dignified exit strategy (use your imagination to figure out what that means). The exact same arguments that America/NATOs are applying to Pakistan can be applied to Afghanistan vis-a-vis Pakistan. As long as they continue harboring anti-Pakistan elements, and until they make peace with Pakistan, Pakistan will do the needful to make sure Afghanistan doesn't cause trouble. No exceptions.

Pakistan has the basis for an excellent peaceful relationship with Afghanistan, including large crossover of ethnic tribes, but it will not materialize as long as Afghanistan lets itself be used by enemies of Pakistan ---or those with anti-Pakistani designs. We know who they are very well.

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## iPhone

Mercenary said:


> The Attack happened in the middle of the night.
> 
> Night Vision Cameras cannot tell what kind of uniforms somone is wearing. And besides, the Apaches fired their Hell Fire Missiles 2-3 Miles away from the Posts.
> 
> It was the Afghan Commandos and their incompetence who called in these air strikes.
> 
> I think blame should be directed at them.



and nato's so stupid that without verfying the target they launched missiles at it. even though maps and coordinations of the posts had been given to them.


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## notorious_eagle

VCheng said:


> It is even sadder to see such an icon being a puppet for the ISI.



Its even more sadder to see how gullible some educated Pakistanis can be.

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## Bhairava

Developereo said:


> *How freaking hard is it * to make an unambiguous crystal clear statement that all NATO transit is terminated UNCONDITIONALLY and PERMANENTLY?
> .



Harder than making a statement online, friend. It is freaking hard when you have the world's most powerful - economically & militarily - superpower breathing down your neck.


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## Developereo

iPhone said:


> you know, if that's the case they should've from the get go made a public stance that the incident is under investigation and it could be a mistake, instead of issuing blunt statements that the attack was unprovoked, soldiers were sleeping etc . why rile public's opinion, why make them outrageous only to cower at the end? i dont care about politicians but military is digging it's grave, too with these shinangins. ppl are gonna loose respect for the only institution they're proud of.



There are two issues here: what happened, and how to respond.

The decision to suspend NATO supplies has to come from the civilian government; the military will only implement the decision.

As for what happened, the Pak position has been pretty consistent throughout: the soldiers were sleeping (most of them); they did not initiate firing; NATO was notified of Pak positions beforehand and during the firing. The only thing that might have changed in the Pak narrative is the distance from the border (2.5km v/s 300m) and even that is less of an issue since the identity of the border posts has never been in doubt.


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## Mercenary

iPhone said:


> the attack came in phases. if you read the report by DGMO. First trip they fired flares, second phase they came and fired at the posts. 45 minutes to an hour later they came again to engage the posts one last time while troops tended to the wounded. The totalality of the event lasted around 2 hours.
> 
> There's no mention of engagement with afghan troops in the report. Nato's report is still due. So your arguement holds no weight that our soldeirs were engaged with the afghan side.



Still too early too tell what exactly happened. A full investigation needs to take place.

NATO should compensate Pakistan for this crime no doubt.

---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------




iPhone said:


> and nato's so stupid that without verfying the target they launched missiles at it. even though maps and coordinations of the posts had been given to them.



That still needs to be determined in an joint investigation which needs to happen.

But sometimes stupid things happen. US bombed Canadian Soldiers in Afghanistan in 2006 killing 6 of them. So these things happen.


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## Bhairava

Mercenary said:


> It can be one on one concessions.
> 
> Like we can to Germany, we will attend Bonn conference but agree to sell us those U-214 Submarines.
> 
> Or from USA, we can ask to give us more F-16s, and Super Cobra Gunships and some investment in our Electrical Infrastructure or give us loans to build dams, etc.
> 
> We cannot afford to make enemies of NATO when we have India right next door to us.



One of the most sensible posts.

A unfortunate things has happened. Now you can respond in two ways - if it had been a weaker country, respond militarily..since this is a stronger country emotionally blackmail them & extort concessions. Just like how Israel is doing to Germany. But then you need intelligent,pragmatic leaders for that.

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## iPhone

Mercenary said:


> Still too early too tell what exactly happened. A full investigation needs to take place.
> 
> NATO should compensate Pakistan for this crime no doubt.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> That still needs to be determined in an joint investigation which needs to happen.
> 
> But sometimes stupid things happen. US bombed Canadian Soldiers in Afghanistan in 2006 killing 6 of them. So these things happen.



so bro, if you're gonna wait till the nato's report comes out to get a clearer picture then you maybe should also refrain from making wild assumptions that are directly in contrast to and totally contradict Pak's investigative report.


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## Rig Vedic

Birbal said:


> He doesn't mince his words.



He is saying Pakistan should withdraw from the war on terror. 

However the consensus in Pakistan Army seems to be that Pakistan should continue fighting with full vigor until a friendly government in Afghanistan is installed.


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## Mercenary

Bhairava said:


> One of the most sensible posts.
> 
> A unfortunate things has happened. Now you can respond in two ways - if it had been a weaker country, respond militarily..since this is a stronger country emotionally blackmail them & extort concessions. Just like how Israel is doing to Germany. But then you need intelligent,pragmatic leaders for that.



I think there needs to be a skills test before someone can open an account on this forum. A person needs to be knowledgable on history, military, geo-politics.

there are way to many fan boys here who are really degrading the quality of debate over here with their nationalist fervor and really conspriacy laden facts.

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## President Camacho

Rig Vedic said:


> He is saying Pakistan should withdraw from the war on terror.
> 
> However the consensus in Pakistan Army seems to be that Pakistan should continue fighting with full vigor until a friendly government in Afghanistan is installed.



Pakistan opting out of War on Terror - I cannot figure out the meaning of that statement

And Pakistan is fighting war on terror... in whose territory?

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## Bhairava

Mercenary said:


> I think there needs to be a skills test before someone can open an account on this forum. A person needs to be knowledgable on history, military, geo-politics.
> 
> there are way to many fan boys here who are really degrading the quality of debate over here with their nationalist fervor and really conspriacy laden facts.



Are you saying about me ?


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## Mercenary

Bhairava said:


> Are you saying about me ?



No, some of the Pakistani nationalist fan boys I have had a fun time debating

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## sur

*Real face of The North American Terrorist Organisation (NATO)*
-
-
-

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## Roybot

sur said:


>



Thats the aftermath of a TTP attack!

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## 53fd

sur said:


> *Real face of The North American Terrorist Organisation (NATO)*
> -
> -
> -



It's not a NATO attack, I believe I saw this video at least a few (1-2) months ago.

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## Hulk

It&#39;s Time To End Our Relationship With Pakistan | Fox News


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## 53fd

indianrabbit said:


> It's Time To End Our Relationship With Pakistan | Fox News



The article considers the US to the battered wife, & Pakistan to be the abusive husband. It's not surprising such a poor article is coming from Fox News, symptomatic of the US mentality these days.


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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For one, the fact that NATO did not follow proper protocol, mislead the Pakistani liaison officer by providing him the wrong coordinates, and continuing the attack for two hours, does support the Pakistani position.



Has NATO agreed to the above faults in an official statement? If not, then again its one side of the story.. 


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Consider this - assuming all this was a mistake, somehow the insurgents managed to get a couple of rounds off from close to the Pakistani position, NATO somehow managed to botch their maps and SOP's to contact Pakistan, and attacked the two posts - Pakistani officials at that point contacted NATO as soon as they got wind of the attack, then why did the attack continue for another hour?


Again, no confirmation of these points from NATO yet.. There is no reason to take this on the face value till there is clarity on the other side of the story as well..



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> An attack for 15 minutes to half an hour, given the delay in the posts communicating to PA commanders, and the PA Commanders calling NATO, would be understandable as a 'mistake'. A two hour assault in two waves is not understandable by any means, given that there are lines of communication in place and liaison officers deployed for precisely that reason.



While we are discussing hypothetical and now given the distance of 300 yrds, I wont be surprised if after the initial attack Pakistan posts responded to the attack by hitting at the heli as well as firing across the border on a NATO post which resulted in the second wave. Again, we need to wait for NATO's version of the story before we can assert that to be right or wrong..

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## karan.1970

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Quit the BS Karan - the DG ISPR is basing his comments on the investigation conducted by the PA, on the statements of the surviving soldiers, the liaison officer with ISAF, and communications records between the Pakistani commanders and NATO after the attacks began.
> 
> Arguing your position is one thing - trying to defend it in the manner above is inflammatory and nonsense.


Read again the post I was responding to and the context.. One doesnt need to be sitting on the border to offer his assessment based on the information made available..



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The arguments yesterday were not based on the official Pakistani report - these are.



And the arguments tomorrow(23rd Dec) will be based on official Pakistani and NATO reports which may again have additional information that we dont have today.. Just like we were all considering 2.5 km as sacrosanct yesterday and have a different view today, there will be other aspects that we dont know today and will be known on 23rd..

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## sur

bilalhaider said:


> It's not a NATO attack, I believe I saw this video at least a few (1-2) months ago.


I see, my bad...didn't have any way to confirm it... I replaced the video.


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## karan.1970

r3alist said:


> Why aren't you listening?
> 
> NATO had the location, had made contact with oak and still engaged in sustained attack, more than sufficient to still put the same argument, that is if you listen.
> 
> Secondly 2.5km or 250 yards, still an incursion and you still need a reason to be there!!!



And again.. I AM NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY NATO ATTACK... Only suggesting that NATO's official report on this will provide important insight into the incident that needs to be factored in before a final understanding can be arrived at on this issue.. We at defence.pk may decide not to, but Pakistani govt surely will


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## bdslph

ahh ok so the video is old then


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## Ambitious449

The level and maturity in this thread is just amazing. Waiting for more deep thoughts


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## krash

President Camacho said:


> Found a relatively unknown news piece, that most probably talks about the same attack that I mentioned in my previous post:
> 
> NATO forces had informed Pak Army of Mohmand operation, says spokesman
> 
> thecheers.org *2008-06-12* 03:07:53
> 
> Washington, June 12 :* A spokesman for the US coalition forces operating in Afghanistan has said that Pakistan was informed about the attack on the check post at Mohmand Agency in NWFP, which killed 11 Frontier Corps' troops, and that it was carried out in self-defence.*
> 
> Confirming the aerial attack, spokesman for the US-led NATO forces in Afghanistan, Lt. Nathan Perry, said that the attack was carried out after an unmanned aerial system identified anti-Afghan forces firing at coalition forces. "In self-defence, coalition forces fired artillery rounds at the militants," the Dawn quoted Perry as saying.
> 
> He added that the coalition forces had come under fire "during an operation that had been previously coordinated with Pakistan". "Shortly after the attack began, coalition forces informed the Pakistan Army that they were being engaged by anti-Afghan forces in a wooded area near the Gora Prai checkpoint," he said.
> 
> Lt Perry claimed that an unmanned aerial system identified additional anti-Afghan forces joining the attack against the coalition forces. "*While maintaining positive identification of the enemy, close-air support was then used by coalition forces to gain fire superiority until the threat was eliminated*," the spokesman said and added, "*at no time did coalition ground forces cross into Pakistan.*"
> 
> *To a question if missiles and artillery shells fired by coalition forces hit targets inside Pakistan, the spokesman said: "Yes, that's correct."
> *
> US-led NATO forces have launched several air strikes inside Pakistan's tribal areas over the last year, *but this is the first time that the Pakistan Army has directly blamed US-led NATO forces for killing its soldiers.*
> 
> -------------
> 
> If we change the date, and the number of dead soldiers, there will be no difference between this strike, and the strike that took place on 26th of last month. Even the events took place at almost the same place - Gora Pai. But nothing happened at that time. Not even talks of blocking the routes, or taking a notice of Shamsi, or any such thing.
> 
> Because there's one difference, a big one - This incident rarely got talked in the media, whereas the latest one, we are spending days and nights deliberating over it. The Army has to make sure that people understand it is still in control of the situation. Only that... living up to the larger than life image, that's not easy.



That does seem very plausible, however their might also be another explanation. The reporting of the media might itself be questioned. The media here mostly picks up on national issues either through the governmental institutions or from other media forums from the outside world. Now the incident which you have reported could have just as easily been picked up and reported from the same source by the Pakistani media as well (The media here is quite good at this and hungry for such spice laden news). Now, as I understand, there could have been two reasons for this not happening. 1) They might not have deemed this news as important enough or 2) they might have been barred by the authorities from raising it. The later seems more probable. 

What we see this time is the media jumping on and around this news shouting there heads off. The authorities too are not staying quiet. So the question presented is "What gives?". Something is obviously different this time. What I speculate is that this time the authorities (read: The military) themselves want this issue to be raised. Instead of muzzling the media or at least staying quiet, with a perfunctory remark here or there, in hopes of waiting out the public angst (OBL case) they themselves are a participant in the holler. They want this to catch flame. The reason behind that might be strategic, political and/or plain old outrage (Lets face it the US and Pakistani militaries arent quite communicating on the same wave length as they did before). The relationship between the two isn't quite what it was back in 2008. There could yet be another reason. In 2008 the Pakistani establishment might not have reckoned its side of the scale heavy enough to face off against the US. This time they might hold a different hand.

So in my view the military's response is not being dictated by the public uproar this time. They've gotten quite good at restraining, parrying and ignoring public sentiments. 

Nonetheless and frankly speaking this issue is still just another issue between the two and it too will be resolved accordingly. No one is going to war or severing any relations. Both Pakistan and the US work on the basis of 'need of the other' and the need isnt going anywhere soon on either side. Whether this time Pakistan can come out more satisfied is what is to be seen.

The Pakistani military isnt quite as dumb as people would have you believe. It also isnt that big a 'lap dog' that some might claim. What one cant deny is that they operate in accordance with their interests, although at times their interests might not align with that of the nation. They are not just incompetent generals sitting higher up hungry just for money. After all they are running the only competent and efficient institution in Pakistan.

ps: It is sad how politics, diplomacy and strategic loss or gain can overshadow the value of the precious lost lives.

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## iPhone

Meengla said:


> All good points. Especially spot on about the delaying the report to cool-off and to start a media spin. The Masters of the Universe are the Masters of the Global Propaganda War a la Goebbels.
> 
> Back to the topic:
> Like Dawn.com 's Mahir Ali who wrote recently, I too find it hard to believe that Nato would deliberately attack a Pakistani post where soldiers were SLEEPING in their tents. What is the gain for Nato? May be this was really a Taliban ploy to cause fire fight between Nato and PA?
> But then, to the dozens of mothers who lost their loved ones it matters little. Facts are that the soldiers died inside the Pakistani territory and that at least some of them died while sleeping in their tents; this hardly sounds like some Pakistani officer giving marching orders to soldiers to fire toward Afghanistan!
> *My guess is that the sustained propaganda war against Pakistan has resulted in such low opinions of Pakistani lives that some young lads commanding helis--lads used to shoot 'enemies' in video games with glee and satisfaction--saw it immaterial to check themselves. 'Pakis' are the new 'gooks', the new 'saveges', the new 'commies'. So let's go Turkey shooting, boys*!



well said. I'm glad somebody pointed out the moral and psychological reasons behind the attack.

Add to that, along with the propaganda through media look at what is happening on the ground. Years of drone operations and mass murder of innocents as a result, they still have the green signal to continue what they're doing. The soldiers and officers running the drone campaigns dont get punished for the killings of innocent human beings, they get medals, official recognitions, a pat on the back with a 'good job hoot.'

Last time in recent histroy this much disregard displayed to human life was during the vietnam war. Where soldiers operated on their own accord the deeper they went. But even they were able to show remorse for the dispicable acts of crimes against humanity they committed. The American public and media criticized them for it. But here even these two are cheering the killings, out of ignorance and sometimes out of revenge.

A white American kills two Pakistanis in broad day light in a major city, a third pedestrian is crushed and killed by a speeding American vehicle and they all go scott free. What message are you sending the world with that? that Pakistani blood can be spilled like water with no consequences.

Is it any surprise, after all this, that Nato did what it without showing any regard or remorse for attacking Pakistani posts and killing soldiers with impunity. They dont care. Because they know they can and will get away with it. It's the same as shooting computerized pixels in the VR training rooms.

Forget nato and the rest of the world, this has effected our own people too, our Pakistanis many times dont care much Pakistani blood spilled at the hands of foreigners. In these very threads, members have expressed relief, hey, good thing our soldiers didnt shoot down their helis otherwise repurcussion would have been severe. Are kidding me? we're being showered with hell fire missiles and we're not allowed to shoot back at the white christians?

Even if Nato acted on Afghan intelligence, I will have you know they didn't care what they shot at. They determined, the target is in our crosshairs, if it's taliban, great, if it's Pakistani soldiers, who cares. Either way we get to shoot and destroy something.


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## Mercenary

iPhone said:


> so bro, if you're gonna wait till the nato's report comes out to get a clearer picture then you maybe should also refrain from making wild assumptions that are directly in contrast to and totally contradict Pak's investigative report.



I havent made any wild assumptions. I am just stating on what the facts have been released so far. But there are too unanswered questions which need to be answered.


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## bdslph

there has to written guarantee that they will not do that again next time restore the supply route is a minute thing and there not only apology and also a pay compensate for the 24 solider family killed and many other wounded and also a far better communication system in border area and also SAM system of Pakistan should be there in border (the rule of SAM is that if fired and killed Pakistan solider that is the time SAM will be used ) ,
then there will be counter balance so next time they wont go cowboy 

America and NATO has a good relation with India already 
and many will blame that Pakistan is the fault of having bad relations, it went bad as they are killing even Pakistan Solider 
it is not how is it it is in side the mind of USA and NATO they don't like Pakistan . considers enemy 

there are ways to cut the heat down all parties has to work


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## jynxed

In Quran Allah States "Ohh Muslims arm yourselves to teeth that your enemy shell never even think of attacking you with the fear of your strength" 

I have read that and didn't understand why is this statement stands out so much but the recent events and everything that has been going on for past 12 years or so in Pakistan tells you exactly that we have diverted our ways from Allah and Quran and the result is in front of us 
we are ruled by cruel and corrupt leaders which delivers the results that are infront of all of us 

**** politics and everything else just think of families who have lost loved ones and for what ................

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## bdslph

that is a good decision, now they want u back more as Taliban feels more comfort talk to Pakistan then NATO and USA


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## W.11

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan should hold its own conference in Islamabad with Iran, Russia, China, and Afghan Taliban.
> 
> We all know Afghan Taliban are the main people who will decide Afghanistan's future thats why U.S. is desperate to get them come to the table.



that is a very nice suggestion


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## Black Widow

bilalhaider said:


> The article considers the US to the battered wife, & Pakistan to be the abusive husband. It's not surprising such a poor article is coming from Fox News, symptomatic of the US mentality these days.




Fox is like Aaj tak, they are absurd and full of BS.. So ignore it...


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## TaimiKhan

notorious_eagle said:


> Its even more sadder to see how gullible some educated Pakistanis can be.



Correction plz, some Ex-Pakistani currently Americans.

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## bdslph

YES I AM thinking there must be another base


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## bdslph

that is the only way to do it cannot satisfy every party


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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> If I count the number of posts that talked of 2.5 km distance as a clinching factor of why this was not a mistake but unprovoked assault, I am sure those will form a large part of the marathon thread on this.. More such gaps will emerge between now and 23rd dec in my view..
> 
> Also I don't understand how were mortars used against helis...



What's the use of a border post which is 2.5KM inside the border. technically it doesn't becomes a border post as 2.5KM inside the territory it can not see anything happening on the border.

Plus, many times in such terrains there are other posts which are nearby in needs of emergency or as back up. I have spent 2-3 years in AJK and there are so many posts right on the border rather peaks being shared by Indian & Pak soldiers at the same time, but both sides having back-up posts 300-400 or a KM away incase the post at the border is overran or needs back up, it can be provided in time. So, who knows there is a Company HQ / back up post which was there and it may be 2.5Km away from the posts which got attacked, and the unnamed sources by mistake mentioned that post, since he was not sure of the layout or what was hit.

And as someone said, we have to look what the official version by ISPR or the media briefing said. 

And they fired air burst rounds, which if lucky can be useful against airborne targets as these shells explode in the air at a certain height, thus shrapnel all around the place.

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## Tehmasib

We all knows that shamsi is not important for US now....trying to mixup pakistani nation


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## TaimiKhan

Rafi said:


> Anatomy of a Deadly NATO Airstrike: The Pakistani Version - TIME
> 
> *The Pakistanis are so irate that they have decided to boycott the forthcoming international security conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, despite appeals from Afghan President Hamid Karzai and German Chancellor Angela Merkel. The NATO supply routes to Afghanistan are still closed. If they remain closed for 30 days, NATO forces will find it particularly difficult to obtain the fuel they need. The routes from Karachi are their only supply line for fuel.*
> 
> This is the kicker here, we hold a very strong bargaining chip, Russia does not allow POL products to be transported by the NDN. And POL cannot be brought in by Aircraft.



Here comes Russia:

After Pakistan Closes U.S. Supply Routes to Afghanistan, Russia Warns About the Northern Route, Too | CNSnews.com

WAFF | World's Armed Forces Forum: Russia threatens to close only supply route into Afghanistan

Cookies must be enabled | The Australian

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## sputnik

I think even India Boycotted Bonn conference. Reason I don't know.


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## LeGenD

Asim Aquil said:


> Tell me, if you are being attacked by a guy much bigger than you. You have gun, that can shoot him down, wouldn't you fire? Then why is it different when someone comes to attack your soldiers? Your soldiers' life must be protected. Chahay koi bhi hai, kill the bloody attacker down.
> 
> Its not like they didn't have the capability to shoot down the choppers. The ISPR report pointed out that they didn't have the capability for aerial defence. After the Osama raid, this is criminal negligence on the part of the leadership. After being reported that the checkpost has come under attack and not scrambling the PAF in defence - thats plain criminal.


Brother, note this:

_He went into comprehensive detail about the sequence of events known so far, explaining that a check post code-named Volcano first came under attack at around 15 to 30 minutes after midnight. A nearby check post, code-named Boulder, responded with *12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons* and mortars after the Volcano check post came under attack from gunship helicopters._

The NATO choppers involved in this incident may have been heavily armored.

And NATO forces made sure that communications with the higher command shall not happen. They likely destroyed both checkposts for this reason.

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## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> Has NATO agreed to the above faults in an official statement? If not, then again its one side of the story..
> 
> Again, no confirmation of these points from NATO yet.. There is no reason to take this on the face value till there is clarity on the other side of the story as well..
> 
> 
> 
> While we are discussing hypothetical and now given the distance of 300 yrds, I wont be surprised if after the initial attack Pakistan posts responded to the attack by hitting at the heli as well as firing across the border on a NATO post which resulted in the second wave. Again, we need to wait for NATO's version of the story before we can assert that to be right or wrong..



Then is it possible for you to wait for NATO's official report and stop posting until the report is made public? I mean 300 or so of your last posts are almost repetitive which state the exact same thing, so why not practice what you preach and actually wait for the report? You have made your point of view quite clear to all of us, now we would appreciate your silence in the matter unless there is something else that you can offer instead of the same 'lets wait for the official NATO response' type posts.

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## kugga

PakShaheen79 said:


> If you have proof, please go to media or court or bring it here. Show me one single scandal like RPP, Steel Mills, PIA, Railways etc. in PA.small scale corruption is everywhere but seriously man, if you people really thinkthat PA can or must fight against US/NATO in a frontal war then i can feel sorry for that.
> 
> They are doing what they can in this kind of situation. PA was never meant to fight against US/NATO .... It is an India-centric military.


DHA was in top 5 most corrupt institutions of Paksitan and is run by PA.... So army is not that pious either.....


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> What's the use of a border post which is 2.5KM inside the border. technically it doesn't becomes a border post as 2.5KM inside the territory it can not see anything happening on the border.
> 
> Plus, many times in such terrains there are other posts which are nearby in needs of emergency or as back up. I have spent 2-3 years in AJK and there are so many posts right on the border rather peaks being shared by Indian & Pak soldiers at the same time, but both sides having back-up posts 300-400 or a KM away incase the post at the border is overran or needs back up, it can be provided in time. So, who knows there is a Company HQ / back up post which was there and it may be 2.5Km away from the posts which got attacked, and the unnamed sources by mistake mentioned that post, since he was not sure of the layout or what was hit.
> 
> And as someone said, we have to look what the official version by ISPR or the media briefing said.


And match it with the NATO version that gets released on 23rd (hopefully).. No one is questioning why the post was within 300 yards of the border (i agree it makes more sense there than 2.5 km inside).. However this is a case in point of how a lot of discussion becomes irrelevant when done, based on incomplete information. 



TaimiKhan said:


> And they fired air burst rounds, which if lucky can be useful against airborne targets as these shells explode in the air at a certain height, thus shrapnel all around the place.



thanks.. Was aware of artillery based air burst ammo.. Didnt know mortars could do that as well.. as they say, live and learn


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## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> Then is it possible for you to wait for NATO's official report and stop posting until the report is made public? I mean 300 or so of your last posts are almost repetitive which state the exact same thing, so why not practice what you preach and actually wait for the report? You have made your point of view quite clear to all of us, now we would appreciate your silence in the matter unless there is something else that you can offer instead of the same 'lets wait for the official NATO response' type posts.



I do doubt the 300 number as much as I was doubting the 2.5 km story yesterday  

BTW, I am not advocating not discussing the event till 23rd Dec but, advocating against formulating a conclusive version of story based on the views (official or otherwise) of one side..

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## F.O.X

mohamadarchod said:


> I think it's better for both pak and us to stop this engagement and go our own ways.
> This is getting more ridiculous by the day



If it only be that easy .


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## Mav3rick

LeGenD said:


> Brother, note this:
> 
> _He went into comprehensive detail about the sequence of events known so far, explaining that a check post code-named Volcano first came under attack at around 15 to 30 minutes after midnight. A nearby check post, code-named Boulder, responded with *12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons* and mortars after the Volcano check post came under attack from gunship helicopters._
> 
> The NATO choppers involved in this incident may have been heavily armored.


 
I don't think 12.7mm anti obsolete-second world war era aircraft weapon can do any damage to a current attack chopper. Our posts should have been armed with our own Anza MK-III and I am sure that would have downed the helicopters.


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## Bhairava

LeGenD said:


> _He went into comprehensive detail about the sequence of events known so far, explaining that a check post code-named Volcano first came under attack at around 15 to 30 minutes after midnight. A nearby check post, code-named Boulder, responded with *12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons* and mortars after the Volcano check post came under attack from gunship helicopters._
> .



AA weapons were also fired ?

More variations from the original theory.


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## regular

Rafi said:


> We have many options, open confrontation - is not in the interest of either ISAF or Pakistan.


Yes! U are right cuz India is going to take advantage of it only......


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## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> I do doubt the 300 number as much as I was doubting the 2.5 km story yesterday
> 
> BTW, I am not advocating not discussing the event till 23rd Dec but, advocating against formulating a conclusive version of story based on the views (official or otherwise) of one side..



As you are neither of the two sides, perhaps it is wiser to now let the 'two' sides sort it out?

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> AA weapons were also fired ?
> 
> More variations from the original theory.



What variations from the original theory? The ISPR's account has been consistent throughout.

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## Mav3rick

Bhairava said:


> AA weapons were also fired ?
> 
> More *variations* from the original *theory*.


 
Dont be a ****, facts stated by our injured soldiers are theories??? And what variations, shouldn't you read up the ISPR report before posting absolute crap that hurts sentiments of others? I would have banned you for your 'theory' part alone if I was a mod!

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## Mercenary

sandy_3126 said:


> mm. coming back to the topic of pakistan closing it's airspace, their seems to be bigger problem in pakistani establishment. Every major foreign affairs/geo-political decision in pakistan for last 3-4 years seems to be "reactionary". Foresight in geo-strategic domain is completely missing, and most of the major issues like afganistan, Taliban, drones, american spies, baluchistan, etc. seems to be coming from knee jerk reactions. Did pakistani establishment not realize that hot pursuit strikes may cause military casualties. This is not the first strike, there have been 7 others before this one. It seems that the civilian leadership is so heavily entangled in domestic politics that, issue for foreign policy has been neglected by the real players who are busy trying to play vote-bank tricks.
> 
> Unless pakistan finds, a strong leadership which can dictate its terms domestically, it will be hard for them put any pressure on US. Maybe someone who has the charismatic qualities of Z A bhutto, is the need of the hour?



Very True.

Pakistani Military and ISI provides locations for terrorists to be taken out in Drone attacks and then Pakistan protests them in a careful dance designed to appease the Americans and the Pakistani public.

Then they agreed to hot pursuit, if Taliban attack in Afghanistan and NATO gives chase and comes into Pakistan then there is a chance of Pakistan and NATO shooting at each other.

Pakistan needs to come up with a comprehensive strategy to deal with this and prepare for the eventuality of NATO withdrawing by the end of 2014.


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## Awesome

I think the sheer detail of the ISPR account embarrasses the US. It says its not accurate but shies from saying - which part is not accurate? Moreover how does it know its not accurate when it does not have its own story straight.

Recall in the Osama raid, the US had details pouring out like anything within minutes, and here nothing after a week?

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## JonAsad

bdslph said:


> that is the only way to do it cannot satisfy every party



Surprisingly there are some sane minds which understands the importance of "dialogue"-


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## PiyaraPakistan

My Q is that, where were our attack helicopters/ AC at the time of nato attack on our check post. We have SAM, Helicopters/ ACs and bieng a muslim the courage to fight against the cruel forces but why we are not using all of these against these Nato/ US intruders. Firstly we should see our internal weaknesses, Are we lacking in defence equipment if yes then currently what are our needs to fight/counter the terrorism of the allied forces(Nato, US etc) and then every second keep the horses/Panthers/spiders ready to fight agianst these kafirs. Yar aik aik ker k sub Muslim countries ke asi tesi ker rahey hen yeh kafir hamen kab akal aye ge. this time we will never forgive our civillian/ military leadership if they comporomized on this issue.


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## Mav3rick

Asim Aquil said:


> I think the sheer detail of the ISPR account embarrasses the US. It says its not accurate but shies from saying - which part is not accurate? Moreover how does it know its not accurate when it does not have its own story straight.
> 
> Recall in the Osama raid, the US had details pouring out like anything within minutes, and here nothing after a week?



We still have OBL raid card in our hand, nothing that we have gathered so far suggests that OBL ever lived in that compound and if our commission report is made public that OBL was indeed never in the Abbotabad compound it will be the biggest embarrassment for US ever.


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## Mercenary

Asim Aquil said:


> I think the sheer detail of the ISPR account embarrasses the US. It says its not accurate but shies from saying - which part is not accurate? Moreover how does it know its not accurate when it does not have its own story straight.
> 
> Recall in the Osama raid, the US had details pouring out like anything within minutes, and here nothing after a week?



Thats because the Osama raid was planned in great detail.

This was a hot pursuit into Pakistan gone wrong.

US and NATO will need to come with a detailed report stating what went wrong.

They will interview the ground commanders, the soliders who took part in the raid, re-interview them for any discrepancies, check facts on the ground.

Its a long and tedious process.


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## Mav3rick

Mercenary said:


> Thats because the Osama raid was planned in great detail.
> 
> This was a hot pursuit into Pakistan gone wrong.
> 
> US and NATO will need to come with a detailed report stating what went wrong.
> 
> They will interview the ground commanders, the soliders who took part in the raid, re-interview them for any discrepancies, check facts on the ground.
> 
> *Its a long and tedious process*.



Took us less then a day to do all that!


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## Developereo

sandy_3126 said:


> mm. coming back to the topic of pakistan closing it's airspace, their seems to be bigger problem in pakistani establishment. Every major foreign affairs/geo-political decision in pakistan for last 3-4 years seems to be "reactionary". Foresight in geo-strategic domain is completely missing, and most of the major issues like afganistan, Taliban, drones, american spies, baluchistan, etc. seems to be coming from knee jerk reactions. Did pakistani establishment not realize that hot pursuit strikes may cause military casualties. This is not the first strike, there have been 7 others before this one. It seems that the civilian leadership is so heavily entangled in domestic politics that, issue for foreign policy has been neglected by the real players who are busy trying to play vote-bank tricks.
> 
> Unless pakistan finds, a strong leadership which can dictate its terms domestically, it will be hard for them put any pressure on US. Maybe someone who has the charismatic qualities of Z A bhutto, is the need of the hour?



To understand the red queen's race nature of Pakistani politics, you just need to understand one fact: all the major players have their permanent interests abroad. For them, Pakistan is just a temporary stop to fill their foreign bank accounts and they have no interest, let alone ability, to plan any long term strategy.

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## opps




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## Omar1984

Mav3rick said:


> Took us less then a day to do all that!



Its a long and tedious process for them to make up a lie like the weapons of mass destruction lie for Iraq.

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## JonAsad

Bhairava said:


> AA weapons were also fired ?
> 
> More variations from the original theory.


 

Dont act like Cheng's associate-
Whose original story?- O what source?-


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## JonAsad

Mercenary said:


> Thats because the Osama raid was planned in great detail.
> 
> This was a hot pursuit into Pakistan gone wrong.
> 
> US and NATO will need to come with a detailed report stating what went wrong.
> 
> They will interview the ground commanders, the soliders who took part in the raid, re-interview them for any discrepancies, check facts on the ground.
> 
> Its a long and tedious process.



Truth is always there to be seen- Lies needs time- fabrication- planning- saving all lose ends-
Till 23 Dec the "Lie" will be ready-

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## Devil Soul

*Obama not to issue formal apology to Pakistan: NYT*
Published: December 1, 2011
The White House said US President Barack Obama will not issue a formal apology or condolences on the death of 24 Pakistani soldiers in a Nato attack on the Pak-Afghan border, said a report by The New York Times.
However, the State Department officials feel that there is a need for such an apology to mend the straining relationship between the two countries, according to the report.
The report stated that US Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter, through a video conference, told White House officials that the anti-American sentiment has reached its peak in Pakistan stressing the need for a formal apology by the US. But the White House argued that condolences offered by senior US officials and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton were enough till the US completes its investigations into the matter, the report said.

_The US government has offered its deepest condolences for the loss of life, from the White House and from Secretary Clinton and Secretary Panetta, said Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council, referring to Defense Secretary Leon E Panetta, and we are conducting an investigation into the incident. We cannot offer additional comment on the circumstances of the incident until we have the results._

Pakistan has strongly responded to the attack on the Pakistani checkposts by cutting off Nato supplies to Afghanistan through Pakistan and refusing to attend the Bonn conference in Germany. The Pakistani government has also demanded for the Shamsi airbase  being used for the drone strikes  to be shut down.
The Pakistan Army said that the attack was unprovoked and was a deliberate act of action, while in a recent statement, top US military officer General Martin Dempsey denied the allegations.
Nato helicopters and fighter jets attacked two military border posts in northwest Pakistan on Saturday in the worst incident of its kind since Islamabad allied itself with Washington in 2001 in the war on militancy.
Obama not to issue formal apology to Pakistan: NYT &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## opps

Omar1984 said:


> Pakistan should hold its own conference in Islamabad with Iran, Russia, China, and Afghan Taliban.
> 
> We all know Afghan Taliban are the main people who will decide Afghanistan's future thats why U.S. is desperate to get them come to the table


Beggars can't be choosers.Dont worry Pakistan will climb down soon like in Raymond davis case when blood money will be paid to generals' pocket and some of the soldiers' families will get green cards.all will be honky dory as before as if nothing happened.

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## Devil Soul

Border closure halts return of Canadian military gear: report
Submitted 1 hr 38 mins ago
Hundreds of sea containers stuffed with military gear that were supposed to be returning to Canada are instead languishing at an undisclosed location in Afghanistan because of Pakistan's decision to close its border to NATO, a military spokesman said Wednesday.
Lt.-Cmdr. John Nethercott said the border closure isn't expected to affect the military's imminent withdrawal from Kandahar, though he acknowledged there could be complications if Pakistan doesn't reopen its borders soon.
"We're assessing the situation," he said. "At this point, there's no impact on our withdrawal of personnel and no immediate impact on our efforts to repatriate equipment back to Canada by land and sea."
About 1,200 troops are in Kandahar packing up for the imminent end of Canada's military presence after six years in the southern Afghan province. They have until the end of the year to wrap up their work.
High-priority and sensitive equipment is being shipped out by air, while the rest was to be sent by convoy across the Afghan-Pakistan border and down the 1,600-kilometre route to the Indian Ocean for transport by sea.
Nethercott said there are containers already gathered at a port in Pakistan, where they were waiting to be loaded onto a ship once the remainder arrived.
The containers being held in transit in Afghanistan are not at the Kandahar Airfield, he added, though he would not say where they are. It's likely they are close to the Afghan-Pakistan border.
Pakistan's border closure has delayed their departure from Afghanistan, though Nethercott downplayed the impact on the Canadian military's withdrawal from Kandahar.
"The repatriation of all the Canadian Forces equipment from Afghanistan to Canada continues to go very well," he said. "We're nearing completion, and for all intents and purposes it's on track."
Pakistan closed the border over the weekend after 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed in NATO airstrikes. It was the latest in a string of events that have strained relations between Pakistan and NATO countries, particularly the U.S.
The country is a key transit point for the convoys that sustain NATO's mission in Afghanistan, and there are widespread concerns the border closure could negatively affect the mission.(The Gazette)
Border closure halts return of Canadian military gear: report | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Devil Soul

*UAE demands apology from NATO over killing of Pakistani troops * 
By Shafek E Koreshe

ABU DHABI, Nov 30 (APP): United Arab Emirates on Wednesday demanded of NATO to apologize to Pakistan for the deaths of its 24 soldiers in an airstrike at its post along the Pak-Afghan border, but denied it sought an extension from Pakistan to extend the deadline to vacate Shamsi Air Base. The Foreign Minister of UAE Sheikh Abdullah Bin Zayed Al-Nahyan, who recently returned from an unscheduled visit to Pakistan to meet its leadership, dispelled reports of any discussion regarding the vacation of an air base near Quetta.
The base is allegedly being used by the American CIA for a clandestine drone program inside Pakistan and there have been reports that the Shamsi base was under the use of the government of UAE. Neither the UAE government has ever confirmed or denied about ownership of the base.
The UAE did not talk about the Shamsi air base, nor the Pakistan side talked about it, the UAE Foreign Minister told reporters from 43 countries through an interpreter.
He said if NATO was using any of the facilities in Pakistan it was for both the sides to discuss it.
The UAE Foreign Minister said his country was following up closely on the happenings in Pakistan as it has deep historic ties. 
He described his meetings with President Asif Ali Zardari and General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani as very important and regretted the loss of 24 innocent lives and injury to 14 soldiers in the attack.
He said, This is a mistake that we cannot accept. Anyone who loves Pakistan cannot justify it. He also asked for an investigation into the incident and asked that assurances must be given that there was no such repetition.
Pakistans highest decision making body - the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, in its meeting had asked the NATO to vacate the Shamsi Air Base within five days, and also placed a halt on military supplies passing through Pakistan, for the NATO forces based in Afghanistan.
The foreign Minister of UAE said the two countries have a strong relationship and his discussions covered all areas of their multifaceted relationship.
The UAE is the largest investor in Pakistan among the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) with the investments of public and private sectors leveling at $3.74 billion from year 2004 to 2010. It has also generously helped Pakistan rebuild much of the infrastructure damaged by floods and natural calamities in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Bajaur and South Waziristan districts, with a cost of US 100 million dollars. The project aims to focus education, public health, roads, bridges and supply of water treatment plants and networks.
The UAE foreign minister also spoke at length about relations of his country with its neighbours and its stance on international issues. He said his country was willing to resolve the dispute over some islands with Iran. 
He also called for worlds attention over the situation in Yemen and Somalia and the violation of laws of the sea by the pirates.
To a question, he said his country was ready to provide any help needed to vacate the British citizens stranded in Iran, following the attack on the British embassy.
Regarding the option to use nuclear energy, he said, the demand for power generation was growing at a rate of nine percent and it was not possible to meet this need through the oil and gas sectors. 
He said the UAE was utilizing all means to generate additional energy including alternative energy and use of nano-technology to help meet its rapidly rising demand.
We want to show to the world that a transparent program for generation of nuclear power was possible and we will set a golden benchmark, he said.
He said UAEs program will be fully under the IAEA guidelines and it would not only become a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, but would also sign the additional protocol. He said there would be no enrichment of Uranium on its soil and stringent laws would be there to ensure safety of the program.
Regarding the developments in Syria, the UAE foreign minister termed the situation critical and expressed the hope that Syria would accept the Arab protocol and the severe measures proposed would not be taken.
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - UAE demands apology from NATO over killing of Pakistani troops

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## MilSpec

Developereo said:


> To understand the red queen's race nature of Pakistani politics, you just need to understand one fact: all the major players have their permanent interests abroad. For them, Pakistan is just a temporary stop to fill their foreign bank accounts and they have no interest, let alone ability, to plan any long term strategy.



let me propose pure fiction. 

say tomorrow US declares war on pakistan. Indian establishment supports pakistan and signs a 100 year defence treaty with Pak,any attack on pakistan will be considered an attack on India and forms a joint military body. Would *pakistanis* denounce its moral support to terror outfits in India????


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## Mav3rick

JonAsad said:


> Truth is always there to be seen- Lies needs time- fabrication- planning- saving all lose ends-
> Till 23 Dec the "Lie" will be ready-



And I wonder why the report is being prepared at a date which is the last working day for almost 2 weeks after that!

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## JonAsad

^^ UAE demands an apology from NATO- in exchange of what?- "Hold of Shamsi"?-
This sh1t is getting old and too obvious-

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## Developereo

VCheng said:


> Such a scenario would represent a significant escalation in the hostile positions taken by both sides, and it would be best to avoid it.



Well, NATO would have to obtain authorization from the UN to violate Pakistani airspace. I am not sure on what basis they would make that case, unless they orchestrate a major false flag operation.



alimukhtar said:


> If justified neutrally NATO/ISAF planes should be shoot down..... in such case,
> w/o any warning, info.....



Pakistan can not take on NATO militarily. The Pak generals are not weak or stupid; they understand full well the consequences of getting into a shooting match with NATO.

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## clmeta

In the recent past it has been observed that whenever Paksitan has been angered by Americans they have persued a more peaceful policy with India. A case in point is MFN which reportedly has Pak army backing.
Lets improve our relations. All other world issues like America, AFghanistan, Iran China and yada yada apart, India and Pakistan should remove mutual suspicions. No one can take advantage of us if we can build some trust.
All the best.


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## Developereo

sandy_3126 said:


> let me propose pure fiction.
> 
> say tomorrow US declares war on pakistan. Indian establishment supports pakistan and signs a 100 year defence treaty with Pak,any attack on pakistan will be considered an attack on India and forms a joint military body. Would *pakistanis* denounce its moral support to terror outfits in India????



There are so many fictional attributes in this scenario. Leaving aside the fact that Pak+India combined is still a cakewalk for America, the fact is that Pak apprehensions about India come in two forms: support for subversive activities within Pakistan, and the Kashmir issue. Your premise implies that India would halt the former so that only leaves Kashmir. And, as long as Kashmiris ask for Pakistani help in their cause, we are obligated to respond. You can classify them as "terrorists" to justify your actions, but we still consider their cause as a legitimate freedom struggle. It goes without saying that all sides should avoid targetting civilians regardless of any pacts.


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## Jango

Mercenary said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I already saw the video.
> 
> Why would the Apaches hover over Infantry positions. What he heard was something different or he is conflating two things.
> 
> Apaches engage from long distances. Like when Israel takes out Palestinian Militants, the militants don't even hear the Apache before the missile explodes.
> 
> I don't belive the DGMO statements because they have lied in the past so there is no reason to believe that they want to improve their image among the Pakistani public so they are using this issue to do so.



Did I say that the Helis hovered above the post?

They were in the Pakistani airspace for a long time.

And do you even know who the DGMO is?


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## Omar1984




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## opps

*Pakistan budges on Bonn meet*




> *Pakistan on Wednesday hinted at the possibility of participating in the coming Bonn Conference on Afghanistan but ruled out any high-level representation* on the ground that Afghan soil had been used by North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) to attack the country in what the Army calls a &#8220;deliberate&#8221; act of aggression.
> 
> *Agreeing to consider German Chancellor Angela Merkel's repeated requests for Islamabad's participation, Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani said he would refer the suggestion of having Pakistan's Ambassador in Germany attend the deliberations to the Parliamentary Committee on National Security.*
> 
> Ms. Merkel called Mr. Gilani to impress upon him the importance of Pakistan's participation at the meeting to make it meaningful. As Mr. Gilani was unwilling to budge on high-level participation, she suggested the Ambassador be permitted to represent Pakistan so that its seat at the table was not left vacant.
> 
> In view of bilateral relations and the fact that the German Foreign Minister was among the first to personally call his Pakistani counterpart to express solidarity with Pakistan and condole the death of 24 Pakistan Army soldiers in the NATO firing at Pakistani outposts on Saturday morning, Mr. Gilani agreed to refer the request to the Parliamentary Committee.
> 
> Meanwhile, the formal communication to the U.S. asking it to vacate the Shamsi airbase has been sent with December 11 set as the deadline.
> 
> Pakistan has released footage of two posts which came under fire from helicopters of the coalition forces in Afghanistan and wanted to know where the NATO casualties were in case there was firing from the Pakistani side.



The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan budges on Bonn meet


Climb down has started soo it will be full circle like raymond davis case.

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## untitled

self delete....


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## Awesome

LeGenD said:


> Brother, note this:
> 
> _He went into comprehensive detail about the sequence of events known so far, explaining that a check post code-named Volcano first came under attack at around 15 to 30 minutes after midnight. A nearby check post, code-named Boulder, responded with *12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons* and mortars after the Volcano check post came under attack from gunship helicopters._
> 
> The NATO choppers involved in this incident may have been heavily armored.
> 
> And NATO forces made sure that communications with the higher command shall not happen. They likely destroyed both checkposts for this reason.



AA guns are not good enough when you have a variety of SAMs at your disposal.


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## Omar1984




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## Jango

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Ok, back to the discussion without going around in circles:
> 
> We have the PA facts about what happened - NATO will not accept that it acted 'deliberately', but it will try and provide a 'face saving' explanation for both sides.
> 
> An apology, at this point, is likely, and it appears the GoP is willing to return to 'normal' if given an apology.
> 
> Comments?



From the statements being given by the civilian government and the military, 'an apology is not enough' statements, it seems the issue may drag down for smoetime.

-NATO supplies blocked permanently, says the FM and Rehman Malik
-Shamsi to be vacated by Dec 11
-Bonn conference bycott
-A official document sent to the UN to see in the matter that US has violated UN mandate, but it just gets regarded as a piece of trash ( Oh, the irony)
-All relations with ISAF/NATO to be reviewed on intelligence, military, political level.

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 PM ----------




Mercenary said:


> Thats because the Osama raid was planned in great detail.
> 
> This was a hot pursuit into Pakistan gone wrong.
> 
> US and NATO will need to come with a detailed report stating what went wrong.
> 
> They will interview the ground commanders, the soliders who took part in the raid, re-interview them for any discrepancies, check facts on the ground.
> 
> Its a long and tedious process.



Are you sure this was a hot-pursuit gone wrong?







Explains it all perfectly. The white flag raised by the soldiers at the post, but still gunned down.

The facts from the Pakistani side are established, good enough for me and most of us.

Again, the image says it all.

---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------




Asim Aquil said:


> AA guns are not good enough when you have a variety of SAMs at your disposal.



At night, it is difficult to shoot down Apaches with 12.7mm guns, hovering at a distance.

Time has come to issue MANPADS to selected posts, and give a strong message.

The amount of troops has increased in some agencies , according to GOC Peshawar.

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## Awesome

In Waziristan where this war is going on, they describe it this way. The bigger chaudhary (Taliban) slaps the smaller chaudhary (Nato). Nato looks around who can it slap, it can't figure anything out, and it slaps a goat (Pakistan)

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## untitled

Asim Aquil said:


> In Waziristan where this war is going on, they describe it this way. The bigger chaudhary (Taliban) slaps the smaller chaudhary (Nato). Nato looks around who can it slap, it can't figure anything out, and it slaps a goat (Pakistan)



I think it as this way. The gnat (Taliban) stings Wolf (NATO). The wolf takes its revenge on the Sheep (Pakistan)


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## Omar1984

opps said:


> *Pakistan budges on Bonn meet*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan budges on Bonn meet
> 
> 
> Climb down has started soo it will be full circle like raymond davis case.



"The Hindu" doesn't know squat.



Pakistan says decision on Afghanistan conference is final | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


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## Omar1984




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## Omar1984

*Pakistan takes China into confidence*


LAHORE - Pakistan on Wednesday took its time-tested friend, China, into confidence over its decision to stay away from the Bonn Conference on Afghanistan, a trilateral moot being held in the first week of December to chalk out a strategy in the wake of expected US withdrawal from that country. 

A news originating from Pakistan&#8217;s embassy in China said that Pakistan&#8217;s Ambassador to China, Masood Khan has conveyed to the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs about federal cabinet&#8217;s decision of not attending the conference. Pakistan cabinet took this decision on Tuesday in response to the Nato/Isaf attacks on Pakistani checkposts last week in which 24 soldiers were killed and 13 injured.

It may be noted that since the Nato attack, Pakistan has been in touch with the international community, particularly with China, to keep the world abreast of the situation. The two countries have always coordinated closely before major international conferences. The ambassador also apprised the Chinese side of the other important decisions and measures announced by the Cabinet which met under the chairmanship of Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani at Lahore on Tuesday. 

Earlier, China had asked the world community and Nato forces to respect fully the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Pakistan, besides demanding a thorough investigation into the November 26 attack. Both countries also want to have peace and stability in Afghanistan to pave the way for economic reconstruction in that country. The ambassador communicated to the Chinese Foreign Ministry that Pakistan attached great importance to stability and peace in Afghanistan and supported an Afghan-led and Afghan-owned reconciliation process. 

He also conveyed Pakistan cabinet&#8217;s strong desire that the international community should reaffirm its support for peace and development in Afghanistan.


Pakistan takes China into confidence | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## bdslph

way to go pakistan good


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## RazPaK

I'm disappointed that most Pakistanis cannot see what is happening to their country before their eyes. All these theories and second guessing is not even necessary. It is obvious the United States wants to take out Pakistan's nuclear facilites. 

FYI:The civilian government knew that this attack was going to occur. Connect the dots from the memo scandal. The army was betrayed by Zardari and co. The army no longer trusts the government, as they are clowns. However don't mistake Kiyani as a just person within all of this. That clown is on the payroll of the United States to look the other way. The United Stated inducted Kiyani a few years back when he was a lower ranked general and visiting the United States. Other Generals may step up to him and take his place. 

For Indians that are spreading mis-information:Stop! 

I would also like to add that I whole-heartedly DISAGREE with Vcheng.





For clueless Pakistanis that want to get an idea of what is happening, watch these two videos.


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## bdslph

it wont be problem for canada they will use the air lift the planes i mean


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## air marshal



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## bdslph

the Pakistan try to contact and told them it is Pakistan army post but the NATO didnot care


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## Developereo

Aryan_B said:


> If PA and ISI was a lap dog of americans as some indians suggest and some of our forum members why are americans attacking pa and isi at every chance they get



Exactly. Just the fact that the West is spending so much effort maligning PA and ISI says it all.

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## Mabs

VCheng said:


> What I say is what I do. The distance of the posts from the border is the first of many changes we will see from the Pakistani side. Let us wait for the NATO report too.
> 
> I throw my weight behind truth, impartially. Always.



Yes, you do throw your weight behind the truth albeit It is only YOUR truth. The whole world has accepted that RD was not a diplomat but a CIA contractor but you won't accept it because it ain't your truth. All the news outlets, Western or otherwise refer to him as a spy, Pakistani FO came out with the statement saying that he was a spook but nothing is good enough for you. 

The fact that you keep claiming to be the beacon of light and truth reminds me of a saying which goes something like " Us nay aik bar kaha main nay maan liya, dosri baar kaha mujhe shak howa, uss nay qasam khayi mujhe yakeen hogya k woh jhota hai."

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## AstanoshKhan

Mercenary said:


> Thats because the Osama raid was planned in great detail.
> 
> This was a hot pursuit into Pakistan gone wrong.
> 
> US and NATO will need to come with a detailed report stating what went wrong.
> 
> They will interview the ground commanders, the soliders who took part in the raid, re-interview them for any discrepancies, check facts on the ground.
> 
> Its a long and tedious process.



Too much advocations for your neighboring America.

US/NATO will bring in an ISAF commander as a scapegoat to ease the tensions with the Govt. of Pakistan. And for the Army, well, the blood for blood is being chanted by the Jawans and Officers of all forces and as result DG ISPR has already given a hint of dire 'consequences' too.

Do you know what the slogan nowadays in Army's rank about this incident "Chunn Chunn kay Marayngay NATO walo ko''.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Rest in Peace the Brave Soldiers.....They died like a Hero fighting for their country.

My Condolences is with the Family.

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## blackcobran

Mercenary said:


> So USA leaves Afghanistan. Al Qaeda comes back and sets up bases and launches more terrorist attacks around the world.
> 
> What do you suppose should happen then?


FUCKKKKKkk
This is just the ans.
The fuckin 9/11 was a drama of CIA everyone knows that.When ur *** will be bombed by some PAKISTANI
then dont blame us thats the nature.
is that ok ??You stay here & we start kickin ur ***** there....


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## Omar1984

*Iran's parliament asks Pakistan to revise ties with U.S.*


TEHRAN &#8211; In a statement issued on Wednesday the Iranian parliament called on Pakistan to revise its relations with the United States.

The statement, signed by 224 MPs, condemned the recent attack on the Pakistan army by U.S. forces and called on Pakistani lawmakers to revise Islamabad&#8217;s ties with Washington.

The statement came after NATO helicopters and fighter jets attacked two military border posts in northwest Pakistan on Saturday in which 24 Pakistani troops were killed. It was the worst incident of its kind since Islamabad allied itself with Washington in 2001 in the war on al-Qaeda and Taliban.

U.S. forces have shed bloods of Pakistan&#8217;s sons another time and made Muslims upset, the statement said, adding it neither was the first violent act nor will be the last one.

It's the time that Pakistani lawmakers respond to people&#8217;s request and take an effective strategy to prevent the U.S. from committing further crimes and violating Pakistan&#8217;s territorial integrity.

"We, as representative of the Iranian Muslim people, would like to extend our condolences to&#8230; the great nation of Pakistan," part of the statement said. 

A senior Pakistani army official has said the NATO cross-border air attack was a deliberate, blatant act of aggression.


Iran's parliament asks Pakistan to revise ties with U.S. - Tehran Times

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## bdslph

if that happens then still Pakistan is attending the Summit no representatives from Pakistan can attend there if it says no that Chair has to be empty


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## BJP*

Its time to see what pakistan is going to do after these attacks. It seems pakistani members are only interested in posting the "sympathy" earned after these attacks. I also condemned the attacks in strongest words.. but the the question arises what is the guarantee that after 2 days NATO is not going to attack again? I dont think stepping out of a meeting is really going to help pakistan


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## T-Rex

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ISPR has denied any 'new clash'
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - No fresh clash between Pakistan Army, Nato forces: ISPR Spokesman


*
All over Iran Mossad is committing terrorism and Iran claims that nothing is happening. Now, Pakistan is trying to mimic Iran.*


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## lem34

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Another thing to consider is that the US budget deficit is ballooning out of control, and most of the options being discussed to cut the deficit are talking about significant cuts to the defence budget in the US.
> 
> By deliberately attacking the Pakistani posts, and trying to instigate a military response from Pakistan that would escalate into a military confrontation (albeit limited), perhaps the hope was the Congress and the American public would come together and demur from cutting the defence budget.



Some time ago around July I put up a thread which now seems relevant??


CIA And Pentagon Itching For Pakistan War

WEDNESDAY, JULY 13, 2011
CIA And Pentagon Itching For Pakistan War
By Ahmed Quraishi at 2:40 AM

Someone is working overtime in Washington to scuttle President Obama's and the American people's wish to end the war in Afghanistan.

The more America gets closer to that goal, CIA and US military in Afghanistan do something stupid to raise tensions with Pakistan. The drones have been doing that job for some time now. But recently CIA operatives have joined hands with likeminded rogue elements inside NDS [the National Directorate of Security, the Afghan spy service] to train, arm and send hundreds of terrorists across international borders into Pakistan to kill Pakistani civilians and soldiers. When Pakistan protests, US and NATO officers have a ready answer: It's the Taliban, what can we say.

The purpose of these antics is nothing but to harass Pakistani citizens and military and just avenge Pakistan's refusal to submit to CIA demands.

There is another reason for CIA's rude awakening in Pakistan.

Pakistanis have misled the agency hotshots for some time into believing that dealing with Pakistanis is like dealing with the defeated and conquered Iraqis and the Northern Alliance puppets in Afghanistan.

Why Pakistanis did this? I don't honestly know. Maybe for US aid, or maybe to cooperate with the Americans in the hope that this time the United States will not prove to be a two-timing untrustworthy ally.

But when CIA went too far in treating Pakistan as a conquered territory, someone in Islamabad had to give Langley a wake-up-and-smell-the-coffee call.

The bottom line is that now CIA is trying hard to cause a military standoff between the United States and Pakistan in the hope of derailing Mr. Obama's plans for a drawdown.

The CIA and US commanders in Afghanistan are doing everything they can to provoke Pakistani military into armed retaliation.

I am not sure what messages Pakistani military commanders are sending to the peeved Americans. But those messages are certainly not good because Admiral Mike Mullen was so angry the other day he accused ISI of murdering a Pakistani journalist.

Imagine this: a US Chairman Joint Chiefs turning into a homicide detective for a day!

If I had the liberty of sending a message to the honchos at Bagram base, it would be this:

The Soviets were smarter.

© 2007-2011. All rights reserved. Paknationalists.com

Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium

without royalty provided this notice is preserved.

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## Super Falcon

when did we opened the airsppace for NAto sir we did not never ever officially opened airspace for them so how do we close now yes what we can do bring our SAM systems near to whole afghan border and also bring pehawar airbase on red alert from now what ever they see no need to ask just go and kill them no matter who is in that radar


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## sid0

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## r3alist

karan.1970 said:


> And again.. I AM NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY NATO ATTACK... Only suggesting that NATO's official report on this will provide important insight into the incident that needs to be factored in before a final understanding can be arrived at on this issue.. We at defence.pk may decide not to, but Pakistani govt surely will


 
You know what you are doing.

The 2.5km point was not an isolated issue, you removed all other points, but you keep on mentioning that point.


Also NATO are bound to come up with their own version, unlikely to admit to murder, so what's the big fuss about their report, only useful unless you believe NATO will not lie, logically speaking they WILL lie.


----------



## iPhone

Mercenary said:


> Thats because the Osama raid was planned in great detail.
> 
> This was a hot pursuit into Pakistan gone wrong.
> 
> US and NATO will need to come with a detailed report stating what went wrong.
> 
> They will interview the ground commanders, the soliders who took part in the raid, re-interview them for any discrepancies, check facts on the ground.
> 
> Its a long and tedious process.



long and tedious process? if it wasn't for the respect of the fallen soldiers, I would have laughed at this statement. 

Interviews can be done in a day or two, three days tops, how many time you wanna interview them anyway? Sending a team out on the ground can be done simultanously while interviews are being conducted and so can the investigation on the amount of ammo fired. 

It's not like there only two three guys investigating. There are number of officers readily available and a lot of data is available from the get go. i.e. flight records, destination, duration en route, amount of ammo left with, amount came back with etc.

I can safely say a week's time is a lot for a well detailed report. But I have mentioned before they have other ulterior motives for prolonging the release of the report.


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## iPhone

Asim Aquil said:


> I think the sheer detail of the ISPR account embarrasses the US. It says its not accurate but shies from saying - which part is not accurate? Moreover how does it know its not accurate when it does not have its own story straight.
> 
> Recall in the Osama raid, the US had details pouring out like anything within minutes, and here nothing after a week?



good point, also remember how many discrepencies were there in the information that kept getting released. They shot him cuz marines thought he was wearing a suicide vest, later.... they shot him cuz he was reaching for a gun. he opened fire, no didn't open fire, he used his wife as a human shield, no it was one of the children. 

and here ppl are hung up on 2.5 km.


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## Zabaniyah

Okay...and just how are they going to do that? What if the USA don't like and still 'insist' on carrying out it's usual activities?


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## iPhone

Mav3rick said:


> I don't think 12.7mm anti obsolete-second world war era aircraft weapon can do any damage to a current attack chopper. Our posts should have been armed with our own Anza MK-III and I am sure that would have downed the helicopters.



problem with us Pakistanis is that we are reactive not proactive. And sometimes not even reactive. We deal with this issue amongst ourselves as a civil society all the time but it's disheartening to see our top institutions also crippling with the same effect.

Not providing these outer posts with sufficient fire power to counter aerial attack is indeed negligence of duty. Hopefully, now troops out there will be provided such MANPADS to defend againt helis. That's being reactive. But they wont be proactive to plan ahead incase next time nato uses jets.

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## Super Falcon

well than usual counter attacks they should face in pakistani teritory and pakistani airspace only one should be acting pak armed forces even UN security councill has law no country forces attack and go for action on any country soil but unfortunatly UN is ***** of USA so it will never act against US


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## Jango

A team consisting of 8 Pakistan Army officials, 2 PAF officials, and other members from FIA, Intelligence agencies, Customs, and other relevant authorities has reached Shamsi airbase.

The aircraft will be directly flown out of Pakistan territory and not to Chaklala Airbase.


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## opps

Wrong question: Should Pakistan close its air space for NATO?
Right thing to ask isoes Pakistan have guts to close airspace?

Answer for now:wake me when it happens.


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## salmakh84

nuclearpak said:


> From the statements being given by the civilian government and the military, 'an apology is not enough' statements, it seems the issue may drag down for smoetime.
> 
> -NATO supplies blocked permanently, says the FM and Rehman Malik
> -Shamsi to be vacated by Dec 11
> -Bonn conference bycott
> -A official document sent to the UN to see in the matter that US has violated UN mandate, but it just gets regarded as a piece of trash ( Oh, the irony)
> -All relations with ISAF/NATO to be reviewed on intelligence, military, political level.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure this was a hot-pursuit gone wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Explains it all perfectly. The white flag raised by the soldiers at the post, but still gunned down.
> 
> The facts from the Pakistani side are established, good enough for me and most of us.
> 
> Again, the image says it all.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> At night, it is difficult to shoot down Apaches with 12.7mm guns, hovering at a distance.
> 
> Time has come to issue MANPADS to selected posts, and give a strong message.
> 
> The amount of troops has increased in some agencies , according to GOC Peshawar.



You believe our FM and Rehman Malik? Lols # 1
The latest reports indicate that they have said supplies could resume if NATO apologizes.

And for people who for some reason DONT believe that our army and generals are in american lap just like our politicians, explain this: Hundreds of US troops housed at Shahbaz base: US think tank THIS IS AFTER NATO :p

And what about old news that told us (by ISPR etc) that Shamsi is already vacated and it was with UAE who gave it to USA bla bla bla... and then we get pictures in 2007 with Pak Army/Airforce "visiting" and hugging the drones!!!

Like I said in a previous post.. this is a Big opportunity for our generals to milk the drying american aid... they made a mistake, and now they are going to pay for it.. in $$$$$

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## Jango

salmakh84 said:


> You believe our FM and Rehman Malik? Lols # 1
> The latest reports indicate that they have said supplies could resume if NATO apologizes.
> 
> And for people who for some reason DONT believe that our army and generals are in american lap just like our politicians, explain this: Hundreds of US troops housed at Shahbaz base: US think tank THIS IS AFTER NATO :p
> 
> And what about old news that told us (by ISPR etc) that Shamsi is already vacated and it was with UAE who gave it to USA bla bla bla... and then we get pictures in 2007 with Pak Army/Airforce "visiting" and hugging the drones!!!
> 
> Like I said in a previous post.. this is a Big opportunity for our generals to milk the drying american aid... they made a mistake, and now they are going to pay for it.. in $$$$$



Well , I dont believe the political setup much.

There is nobody there now. Atleast check the dates. They were there in 2001 until around 2006. Now , the only yanks there are from LM for the F-16's and such, and that is not even hundreds. 

Stop giving these unsubstantiated claims importance. C-17's also take off from Chaklala airbase daily, although now they might have been stopped.

And Shamsi airbase was given to the UAE sheikhs, and the US also operated from it, it was no real surprise there. The US has bases everywhere in the world. It is the terms on which the base was given that was the real problem then. Now , it shold be vacated.

A team of 8 PA officers, 2 PAF officers, FIA, customs and intelligence agencies have reached Shamsi airbase, and the planes would be flown directly outside Pak airspace, not to Chaklala.

And the generals do most of the time get them in their lap, but now I genuinely think that it is a different case.


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## IND151

Pakistan cant close airspace for NATO

if it does it wont get economic aid fro US


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## Mercenary

Aryan_B said:


> Some time ago around July I put up a thread which now seems relevant??
> 
> 
> CIA And Pentagon Itching For Pakistan War
> 
> WEDNESDAY, JULY 13, 2011
> CIA And Pentagon Itching For Pakistan War
> By Ahmed Quraishi at 2:40 AM
> 
> Someone is working overtime in Washington to scuttle President Obama's and the American people's wish to end the war in Afghanistan.
> 
> The more America gets closer to that goal, CIA and US military in Afghanistan do something stupid to raise tensions with Pakistan. The drones have been doing that job for some time now. But recently CIA operatives have joined hands with likeminded rogue elements inside NDS [the National Directorate of Security, the Afghan spy service] to train, arm and send hundreds of terrorists across international borders into Pakistan to kill Pakistani civilians and soldiers. When Pakistan protests, US and NATO officers have a ready answer: It's the Taliban, what can we say.
> 
> The purpose of these antics is nothing but to harass Pakistani citizens and military and just avenge Pakistan's refusal to submit to CIA demands.
> 
> There is another reason for CIA's rude awakening in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistanis have misled the agency hotshots for some time into believing that dealing with Pakistanis is like dealing with the defeated and conquered Iraqis and the Northern Alliance puppets in Afghanistan.
> 
> Why Pakistanis did this? I don't honestly know. Maybe for US aid, or maybe to cooperate with the Americans in the hope that this time the United States will not prove to be a two-timing untrustworthy ally.
> 
> But when CIA went too far in treating Pakistan as a conquered territory, someone in Islamabad had to give Langley a wake-up-and-smell-the-coffee call.
> 
> The bottom line is that now CIA is trying hard to cause a military standoff between the United States and Pakistan in the hope of derailing Mr. Obama's plans for a drawdown.
> 
> The CIA and US commanders in Afghanistan are doing everything they can to provoke Pakistani military into armed retaliation.
> 
> I am not sure what messages Pakistani military commanders are sending to the peeved Americans. But those messages are certainly not good because Admiral Mike Mullen was so angry the other day he accused ISI of murdering a Pakistani journalist.
> 
> Imagine this: a US Chairman Joint Chiefs turning into a homicide detective for a day!
> 
> If I had the liberty of sending a message to the honchos at Bagram base, it would be this:
> 
> The Soviets were smarter.
> 
> © 2007-2011. All rights reserved. Paknationalists.com
> 
> Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium
> 
> without royalty provided this notice is preserved.



 This article comes from a site called Pak Nationalists.

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## Mercenary

iPhone said:


> long and tedious process? if it wasn't for the respect of the fallen soldiers, I would have laughed at this statement.
> 
> Interviews can be done in a day or two, three days tops, how many time you wanna interview them anyway? Sending a team out on the ground can be done simultanously while interviews are being conducted and so can the investigation on the amount of ammo fired.
> 
> It's not like there only two three guys investigating. There are number of officers readily available and a lot of data is available from the get go. i.e. flight records, destination, duration en route, amount of ammo left with, amount came back with etc.
> 
> I can safely say a week's time is a lot for a well detailed report. But I have mentioned before they have other ulterior motives for prolonging the release of the report.



There are a multidue of different actors at play here.

The Commanders who authorized the raid. The Intelligence officers who gave intel to the commanders for the raid. The informants who thold the intelligence officers about the target. The soldiers who carried out the raid. The air crew, infantry, special operations forces, etc.

So this a multipronged approach into figuring out what exactly happened.

Look Its apparent you have Zero knowledge on such subject matters. And you are analyzing this from watching CSI. But in reality, its a lot different.

Information has to be collected. Vetted, re-collected if there are discrepencies, and verified and make sure the entire puzzle fits together and there are no holes.

I am sorry if you fail to understand this process.

---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 AM ----------




iPhone said:


> good point, also remember how many discrepencies were there in the information that kept getting released. They shot him cuz marines thought he was wearing a suicide vest, later.... they shot him cuz he was reaching for a gun. he opened fire, no didn't open fire, he used his wife as a human shield, no it was one of the children.
> 
> and here ppl are hung up on 2.5 km.



Exactly. Because those statements came out without an official report on his death being released. And thats why you had the contradictions.

So you just proved my point.

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## Khan_patriot

just scrambling the jets would have caused a retreat back across the border and all this trouble could have been avoided.........
if only men with balls were in power......


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## Mercenary

iPhone said:


> problem with us Pakistanis is that we are reactive not proactive. And sometimes not even reactive. We deal with this issue amongst ourselves as a civil society all the time but it's disheartening to see our top institutions also crippling with the same effect.
> 
> Not providing these outer posts with sufficient fire power to counter aerial attack is indeed negligence of duty. Hopefully, now troops out there will be provided such MANPADS to defend againt helis. That's being reactive. But they wont be proactive to plan ahead incase next time nato uses jets.



And do you think Pakistan has an infiite supply of MANPADS?

And besides, those posts were set up to defend against Taliban Terrorists. The Taliban has no air power, so why would Pakistan Army waste its resrouces staffing these areas with MANPADS?

This was an accident which needs to be fully investigated and made sure nothing of the sort like this ever happens again.

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## F.O.X

Mav3rick said:


> I don't think 12.7mm anti obsolete-second world war era aircraft weapon can do any damage to a current attack chopper. Our posts should have been armed with our own Anza MK-III and I am sure that would have downed the helicopters.



The Reason forward posts on Afg side don't have Man pads is due to the fact Taliban dont use Helis , but after this attack if things goes towards worse they may be provided with batter AA equipment.


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## Safriz

aur loo pungaa pakistan saiy..


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## mr42O

mr42O said:


> Nato attacked Pakistanies in hope of Pakistan will answer back. Americans will find a reason to attack Pakistan as it cant do as today. When i mean attack i mean full scaled war in Waziristan etc.
> 
> Why Pakistani airforce wasnt sent in is because lets say full scale war is started Pakistani air force fuel which is blocked by Americans ships in arabian sea. If i am not wrong Pakistan cant get from Iran either. So in other words we are surrounded by enemy who want us to answer.
> 
> What i read in Indian newspapir India is fully prepared with isrealies to take out Pakistani defence and take out our nukes. Indian Isrealie lobby is working to get rid of our nukes before USA leave Afghanistan. They think they will never get this chance again.
> 
> Thats reason Pakistan did not completly cut of ties with Afgan taliban.*IF* they have any connection at all. I fully understand them now.



As i predicted. Indians made big movement along Pakistani borders and has start miltary exercise today. In a program on ARY news a defence expert said Pakistan has fuel for only 6 days for there jet fighters.

Now question is did Indian had this exercise planned along time ago ? NO so who did told them to do so and whats India up too ?

---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------




Mytime said:


> Please dont pull India into this for the sake of it , Its Pakistan vs Uncle Sam n its NATO stooges in all this ,
> 
> India wants a stable Pakistan so that India can concentrate on its development rather than get embroiled in useless conflicts !



Sorry sir India and Indians are dragging them self inn as always offcourse you will deny..... look at my above post and explain


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## mr42O

ARY News :- Army cheif has given his troops to answer any attack from any one. Does not need permissions any more as they did before.....

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## Xestan

I had received this news today at morning but had no confirmation, now News channels are also reporting on it.

*A top-secret corps commanders conference was held in the morning right after the NATO/ISAF attacks at Salala. Pakistan's Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani had directed all his Corps Commanders and their respective units to give a fierce reply to any aggression from the Afghan side using all resources possible. It was also directed that units were no longer bound to take permission from senior authorities for retaliatory fire; Pakistan Army was ordered to fight back with whatever supplies they had. This was also been issued as a notification in case further aggression takes place in the future.* 

[Express News]

Terminal X | Facebook

I don't know if this is right to say but Army Cheif has dismantled the Command and Chain structure for the Western Border as well, no more "wait for the orders", if troops receive fire from the NATO/US forces, the most senior officer present at the spot is now given full authority to take decisions. Furhter more in his letter to the troops which was sent to all the Units of Pakistan Army 2 days ago, Army Chief expressed his regret about not involving PAF into the incident and assured that from now on Troops at border will be provided with every possible reinforcement.

Details are coming slowly. If anyone else has any inside news, please share.

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## Emmie

How authentic is the news? If its true then i think its quite vindicated for too many reasons, one being to avoid any mutiny within Army.

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## sachin@india

That should always be the case. why ambiguity in first place ?

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## wmdisinfo

Dunya News: Pakistan:-COAS suspends command, chain system to thwart aggr...


COAS General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani has suspended command and chain system to counter any aggression.


Sources said the Army Chief has suspended the command and chain system in order to enable the senior officers on the posts to take appropriate action in case Pakistani forces come under attack.

Sources said that decision would however be applicable to eventualities involving Nato troops.

Sources said that General Kayani has also ordered the troops to counter any aggression with full force and defend the motherland against any assailant. General Kayani has also said that the Pak Air Force should have taken action while Nato helicopters had violated the Pakistani airspace and attacked the Pakistani posts, sources said.

General Kayani has also observed that the communication of the attacked posts had snapped after the Nato attack. He said that now the senior officer on the ground would decide about counter measures.

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## Pioneerfirst

it is not the case even in declared war some times.At least the matter will have to reach up to brigade or Div commander level

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## regular

Yes! the commanders at the borders shold have the full authority to take any measure to defend themselves...Nobody can steal something from our land but the enemies always try to kill our soldiers or civilians . The defence is required for the human lives need to be defended at all costs. If our JF thunders can't go and fight against US/NATO then they shold be thrown out in dustbins and whole PAF shold be sent home...no need for them if they can't even save the lives of their own officers and soldiers getting killed mercilessly on the borderz...


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## 53fd

> ABU DHABI: The United Arab Emirates on Wednesday demanded of NATO to apologise to Pakistan for the deaths of its 24 soldiers in an airstrike at a military post along the Pak-Afghan border, but denied it sought an extension from Pakistan to extend the deadline to vacate Shamsi Air Base.
> 
> UAE Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah Bin Zayed Al-Nahyan, who recently returned from an unscheduled visit to Pakistan to meet its leadership, dispelled reports of any discussion regarding the vacation of an air base near Quetta.
> 
> The base is allegedly being used by the American CIA for a clandestine drone programme inside Pakistan and there have been reports that the Shamsi base was under the use of the government of UAE. The UAE government has neither confirmed nor denied owning the base.
> 
> The UAE did not talk about the Shamsi air base, nor the Pakistan side talked about it, the UAE Foreign Minister told reporters from 43 countries through an interpreter.
> 
> He said that if NATO was using any of the facilities in Pakistan, it was for both the sides to discuss it. app



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## W.11

looks like shamsi is very important for UAE, but nevertheless should kick out arab sheikhs from there

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## 53fd

Followed by:

*Mere apology won&#8217;t work: Pakistan*



> * Khar says coalition forces have crossed &#8216;red line&#8217; several times
> 
> * Pakistan can&#8217;t see its soldiers being killed anymore
> 
> * Our sovereignty more important than Aghan peace
> 
> By Ijaz Kakakhel
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar told the Senate committee on Foreign Affairs on Wednesday that the NATO attack on the Pakistani border posts, and the killing of 24 soldiers was not an accident and that only an apology would not be enough.
> 
> She reiterated that the government had determined to review its engagement with foreign forces in the war on terror. She stated that a mechanism existed with Afghanistan through which Pakistan was informed about any military movement near the border 24 hours prior to it and regretted that in this case, Pakistan was not as per the agreement. She said that this was something which would be not be tolerated in the future.
> 
> The government, particularly the Defence Committee of Cabinet (DCC), had decided to revisit its terms of engagements with ISAF forces, decided not to attend the Bonn Conference on Afghanistan, called for the evacuation of the Shamsi Air Base and blocked all NATO supplies. &#8220;I think only an apology by NATO/US is not acceptable to Pakistan,&#8221; she said, adding that the red line calling for no foreign boots on Pakistani soil had been violated several times.
> 
> &#8220;We have to protect our own interests, not the other country&#8217;s,&#8221; she stated, adding, &#8220;There is a need to re-assess our position in the entire process.&#8221;



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## Jango

It is not really a secret, I got the news at 4 in the evening that a Corps Commander conference was going to be held. It was held at around 5 or 6 eventually. Routes were placed on Islamabad Highway as well for the DCC meeting.

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 PM ----------

Although this is a good move IMO. The senior most officer on the ground handles the situation the best, and he should be making the snap decisions.

---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 PM ----------

Got to check this from people within the Army. Not sure he would have sent it to every unit in the PA.


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## PakShah

Its in the UAE newspapers as well:

*UAE moves towards building stronger Union*

1 December 2011, 6:50 AM The UAE under the leadership of Shaikh Khalifa has been building the Union based on its own and other experiences, stressed Shaikh Abdullah.
ABU DHABI- The UAE Foreign Minister, Shaikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan, stressed that the UAE under leadership of President His Highness Shaikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan has been building the UAE Union based on its own and other experiences.

He added that &#8220;Our celebration of the 40th national day anniversary reflects the depth of the UAE Union&#8217;s experience that moves it to the advanced countries and achieve welfare of its citizens&#8221;.

Shaikh Abdullah was speaking on Wednesday afternoon at Yas Viceroy Hotel at Yas Island in a meeting with 100 journalists from 43 countries, who are visiting the country upon invitation by National Media Council (NMC). The event was organised by NMC.

On the sanctions slapped by the Arab League on Syria, he said, &#8220;The situation is very difficult in Syria, especially after the Arab League had taken a series of penal measures. We were expecting our brothers in Damascus to accept the Arab Initiative as it is, but they refused, forcing the Arab League to take the resolutions by slapping the economic penal measures to force it to accept the Arab initiative&#8221;.

The UAE Foreign minister added that &#8220;We are still hoping Damascus will accept the Arab Initiative to avoid tough Arab Punishments&#8221;.

&#8220;Will not anticipate events and must remain optimistic in solving the crisis. It is difficult for us to talk now about the timing of the implementation of sanctions as we should give another chance to Damascus to get out of the difficult situation which it has put itself in and the Arabs as well.&#8221;, Shaikh Abdullah said.

About his recent visit to Pakistan, he said the UAE-Pak relations are historic and strategic, indicating that the UAE is closely following up the developments in Pakistan. &#8220;During my recent visit to Islamabad, I met Pakistani President, Minister of Foreign Affairs and a number of senior officials to boost the bilateral relations.

*He added that the UAE has officially denounced Nato attack on the Pakistani soldiers, adding that the UAE has issued a statement calling on Nato to apologize to Pakistan about the error. &#8220;We have also called on Nato to immediately explain causes of incident and pledge that the such incident will not happen again&#8221;*

About Pakistani Shames Military Base, Shaikh Abdullah said, it is not under the jurisdiction of the UAE. The issue is being discussed by Nato and Pakistan.

On the attack on the British Mission in Tehran, he added &#8220;that the UAE respects the international law and a member of the United Nations, so it will sympathise with any country whose Embassy gets attacked&#8221;, adding that the attack on the British Embassy in Tehran is unacceptable and violated the Geneva Convention on protection of the diplomatic missions.

He added the UAE has been in contact with the British government. &#8220;We are ready to offer any evacuation assistance of the Embassy staff, if requested by Britain&#8221;.

On the UAE-Omani relations, Shaikh Abdullah said the two countries enjoy the historic and strategic relations based on the cooperation and distinguished fraternal ties between President His Highness Shaikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan and His Majesty Sultan Qaboos bin Saeed of Sultanate of Oman.

On joining of Jordan and Morocco of the Gulf Cooperation Council for Arab States, Shaikh Abdullah said &#8220;there are no objections to the distinguished relations between the GCC and the two countries. But there is no consensus about the joining of two countries to the GCC with full membership&#8221;.

He added that there is difference between the distinguished relations with Jordan and Morocco and the full GCC membership. &#8220;There is huge difference&#8221;.

The UAE minister said that the GCC will offer two countries an opportunity for sound and the best model relations with the GCC, quoting HRH Prince Saud Al Faisal, Saudi Foreign Minister, who said, &#8220; We have to learn from EU experience which hurried to include 10 states to face the repercussions of the hasty decision on current euro crisis. We do not one that to occur in the GCC&#8221;.

Shaikh Abdullah stressed the role of GCC in the Arab world events, citing that the GCC plays a pivotal role in these crises in a number of Arab countries. &#8220;We have seen how the GCC had worked seriously in the crises of Libya, and now in Syria and Yemen. Therefore, we do not want to look for new members to strengthen the GCC.&#8221;

&#8220;I&#8217;m pretty sure, without the GCC strength, the Arab situation would have been below the wishes of Arab people in the current circumstances&#8221;, he said, adding that there is an agreement to set up Arab Committee to look into situation of the countries neighbouring Syria, and the repercussions of the Arab sanctions on them. He added that the UAE is not a member of the Committee.

Shaikh Abdullah said the situation in Lebanon is critical as many believe the country will suffer, and this is very sad.

On the sanctions on Iran, Shaikh Abdullah said the UAE complies with the sanctions imposed by the UN under chapter seven against any country in the world, but additional sanctions are left to the private sector.

Regarding Yemen, he said he was optimistic Yemen will overcome the crisis soon, stressing the support of the GCC to Yemen to resume dialogue with the GCC.

Shaikh Abdullah said that the GCC has played great role to encourage Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh and opposition to sign the Yemeni Initiative, which was endorsed by the UN Security Council.

He added that the Yemeni Crisis is linked to situation in Somalia, citing the spread of anarchy and piracy in the Horn of Africa country.

On Libya, Shaikh Abdullah said, the internal situation in Libya concerns Libyans alone, adding that the situation is better in Libya, especially after the formation of government.

About Tunisia, he said that he was the first Arab official to visit the country after the new changes, praising the country for restoring the civil political system quickly.

On the UAE-Egyptian ties, the UAE minister, &#8220;Our strategic vision towards Egypt continues with the new government irrespective of he who rules Egypt. Egypt undergoes the critical transitional period that we have to assist it to overcome&#8221;.

He referred to many meetings held between the officials of the two countries on pending issues over the UAE-Egyptian investments.

Answering a question on the period of Al Jezirah Shield Forces in Bahrain, he said that the GCC supports the steps of King of Bahrain, especially after setting up of the facts finding committee, adding that the GCC supports all the steps of monarchy in the light of historic speech in which the King exhibited transparency and openness, and taking appropriate decision to redress the mistakes and not to repeat them.

&#8220;We will not withdraw Al Jezirah Shield Force except with a request from Bahrain, because the force was sent there upon the official request from Bahrain&#8221;, he added.

Shaikh Abdullah said the amnesty issued by the UAE President to release five Emirati citizens convicted by the UAE court, is not strange to the President who works for the interest of the country to ensure future of citizens. He added that the amnesty surprised many who attempted to doubt the integrity of the UAE judiciary.

On building of the UAE nuclear-actors, he added the decision to build the peaceful nuclear energy programme in the UAE was taken to address the increasing demand for energy annually- about 9 per cent annually.

This programme, he continued, will help the UAE gets drinking water, because it suffers scarcity of water and depends on desalination of water.

The UAE minister said the UAE has taken a tough decision to accept and sign addendum protocol, banning enrichment of uranium in the UAE and dumping and recycling the nuclear wastes in the UAE under supervision of the international committee for the nuclear programme.

He called on EU to speed signing of the Free Trade Agreement with the GCC after 22 years of talks, adding that the EU will be a loser if it does not sign as there are other economic blocs such as ASEAN, China, Japan, India and Australia, which are interested to sign agreements for setting up the free trade zone areas.

Shaikh Abdullah called on EU to lift impediments that delay the deal before it is too late.

UAE moves towards building stronger Union


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## Jango

A team went to Shamsi airbase today, consisting of PAF, PA, intelligence, customs, FIA officers.


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## Pfpilot

Isn't such a green light going to exponentially increase the chances of more NATO bombing runs in our territory? We have seen when NATO forces even sense trouble...or even a tummy ache for that matter...they will not hesitate to call in air strikes. Actively firing in their direction seems to be asking for trouble. 
I just don't know how smart this decision is, it may deter future border incursions or it may blow up in our face and result in constant skirmishes. As this previous NATO attack shows, it is very hard to be sure of who's a friendly and who is aggressively posturing...the area is already too volatile in my opinion. I just hope we don't end up losing even more troops by putting big time decision making in their hands, in our haste to retaliate in some way to the NATO bombings.

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## Stealth

Best why to **** USA is to talk with CHINA and Russia both already show fully support to PAKISTAN. Take this issue in UN ... UN puppet USA can't do anything when 2 VETO power support Pakistan two left (France and UK) can't help USA in this issue. PAkistan should take this issue in UN with support of CHINA and RUSSIA to veto if US/UN show some favor towards USA!


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## patna_ke_presley

Anyway, what Pakistan actually want apart from apology. What are the conditions they are putting before the Americans??


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## regular

They need to kickout the American merceneries from their by tomorrow other than talking big mouth on the media to decieve/fool their already foolish pplz/public....


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## Major Sam

but the army should also provide the border posts with appropriate weapons specially in case of air assault....

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## wmdisinfo

UN is meaning less in case of PAKISTAN NATO US.

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## Major Sam

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/144154-secret-corp-commander-conference-message-troops.html

Mods plz already thread is there plz close it or merge it into other ongoing one. thx


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## unicorn

Wajid Shams ul Hassan looks very sad while talking about the incident.

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## wmdisinfo

ANZA II should be devin to every company / post.

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## r3alist

patna_ke_presley said:


> Anyway, what Pakistan actually want apart from apology. What are the conditions they are putting before the Americans??



an apology gives diplomatic leverage i.e. we were in the wrong to intrude your territory and open fire.

however the us has said it reserves the right to come into pak territory if it really wants to, therefore if the us apologises it accepts such violations of sovereignty are unacceptable which is a gain for pakistan.

geddit?



this seems like drama to me now anyway, if something happens thats unusual, then you should ask why?

uae and pakistan have suddenly grown balls the size of melons, how come?

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## genmirajborgza786

i think given the mood of the desperate measure the U.S is taking these days , i think diplomacy would be the best course of action

few steps : create as much understanding with Russia,china & Iran as possible

normalize relationship with India as much as possible

increase trade with both china & India get in through the India-china trade relationship utilize this to the fullest initiate the transit route with china,India,Bangladesh to central Asia vice versa to south east Asia once that will be accomplished thus automatically bringing in India to the economic dimension & its benefits the eastern border will thus become calm there will be just so much economics at stake this is where the U.S will feel the pinch as India will then become cautious & will hesitate to participate in any U.S persuasions for an indo-pak escalations don't isolate India that will only bring in the U.S closer to it don't give that any chance instead bring India in to the picture along with china, Russia, Iran, Bangladesh trust me that way if played well India might be the triumph card for Pakistan here

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## patna_ke_presley

r3alist said:


> an apology gives diplomatic leverage i.e. we were in the wrong to intrude your territory and open fire.
> 
> however the us has said it reserves the right to come into pak territory if it really wants to, therefore if the us apologises it accepts such violations of sovereignty are unacceptable which is a gain for pakistan.
> 
> geddit?
> 
> 
> 
> this seems like drama to me now anyway, if something happens thats unusual, then you should ask why?
> 
> uae and pakistan have suddenly grown balls the size of melons, how come?



It seems that Pakistan won't accept apology only as said by many Pakistan ministers and public sentiment. What Americans must do to please Pakistan so that their supply route can be started again.


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## Devil Soul

*Munter offers Condolences on Nato strike*
Agencies (3 hours ago) Today


ISLAMABAD: US ambassador to Islamabad Cameron Munter on Thursday expressed his deep condolence on the Mohamand Agency incident and deaths of Pakistani soldiers.

In a statement, ambassador said &#8220;I would like to extend my most sincere condolences to the people and government of Pakistan and especially to Pakistani men and women in uniform, for the tragic incident that occurred on November 26 in Mohmand Agency. My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the men who died.&#8221;

&#8220;Pakistan and the United States have stood together for over 60 years. We have weathered previous crises together,&#8221; he said.

The ambassador said he was certain that both countries will weather the current crisis, and would emerge as stronger partners.

He said the US has taken this matter very seriously and pledged a full and in-depth investigation.
Munter offers Condolences on Nato strike | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Mr. Shams Ul-Hassan is a good representative of Pakistan; i remember fondly when he held his ground during a debate on 26/11 with vicious and emotional indian media (he put those sorry bastards in their place)

he's a calm and collected speaker, he tells it how it is. I appreciate that, from him. It's a good attribute.

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## Luftwaffe

Pfpilot said:


> I just don't know how smart this decision is


 
What and when is smart decision, you have to take a decision in the end, tomorrow B-52s fly over Waziristan and bomb the hell outta civilian population then would those who say lets deal it carefully shall approach with the same stance? I am wary and I don't think so.

Rules of engagement must be defined and outlined, a red-line must be drawn, until now everything was vague. The question from those who oppose Pak Army to take any action is Non Nuclear Iran and N. Korea is in a stronger position where US led coalition is reluctant to take even the slightest action where as the over overwhelmingly bullying continues with a nuclear state in form of Drone and Copter Strikes. The question does arise here Why and Who made US-NATO bold enough to take such actions against Pakistan and is unable do it against Iran-N. Korea, only shows the weakness of the State. 

Lastly every time they'll strike and your side will say ok relax we cannot fight US-NATO and every time they will come out stronger bolder and more deeper inside Territory.

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## RazPaK

> Isn't such a green light going to exponentially increase the chances of more NATO bombing runs in our territory? We have seen when NATO forces even sense trouble...or even a tummy ache for that matter...they will not hesitate to call in air strikes. Actively firing in their direction seems to be asking for trouble.
> I just don't know how smart this decision is, it may deter future border incursions or it may blow up in our face and result in constant skirmishes. As this previous NATO attack shows, it is very hard to be sure of who's a friendly and who is aggressively posturing...the area is already too volatile in my opinion. I just hope we don't end up losing even more troops by putting big time decision making in their hands, in our haste to retaliate in some way to the NATO bombings.




Son, when the Chinese fought the Americans and gave them a bloody nose in the Korean War, they hardly ever messed with China afterwards, even though China lost many troops. Maybe on a small scale here or there, but they will never go to war with China.

Remember you can reason with humans, but animals only learn with a stick. 




Classic case of bully. Bully only picks on the guy that doesn't fight back, under the current circumstances that would be Pakistan.

We may lose some of our troops, but that's why they are there for; to protect Pakistan. We didn't go Afghanistan and fire missiles at them. 

The biggest beghairat is the one that is even scared to defend himself. Even Allah swt dislikes people that do not protect themselves. We are not the aggressors.

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## Jango

yeah, looks a good enough and intelligent person


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## wmdisinfo

India will be and is with NATO/US and if any war breaks out between Pakistan US and will be a great disaster for the region and the world.and it will be only conventional warfare because china will side with pakistan if india jumps in.

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## Luftwaffe

RazPaK said:


> Son, when the Chinese fought the Americans and gave them a bloody nose in the Korean War, they hardly ever messed with China afterwards, even though China lost many troops. Maybe on a small scale here or there, but they will never go to war with China.
> 
> Remember you can reason with humans, but animals only learn with a stick.
> 
> Classic case of bully. Bully only picks on the guy that doesn't fight back, under the current circumstances that would be Pakistan.
> 
> We may lose some of our troops, but that's why they are there for; to protect Pakistan. We didn't go Afghanistan and fire missiles at them.
> 
> The biggest beghairat is the one that is even scared to defend himself. Even Allah swt dislikes people that do not protect themselves. We are not the aggressors.



China, Iran has come-out the strongest after all sort of sanctions since 70's-80's, Pakistan will not learn anything until you are hard sanctioned and you see the reality you got to stand on your feet and not beg others. It is just a baseless stupid assumption that US-NATO will start and full scale War with Pakistan start daily air strikes on troops, they are broken economically both US-NATO nations they need to focus more economically. There will be repercurtions of it and Israel will become more vulnerable.

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## Thor

A decision in the right direction....... the will be no lack of discipline. The PA is one of THE most disciplined Armies in the world, and the command and control will always remain there. Every Army in the world operates like this in a war zone. In peace times the matter is different but in a real time fir fight, the most senior commander on the ground makes the decision based on the risk assessment done, i.e. if they dont fire back they will be killed. 

I do however find that with these new standing orders, the Military post positions will have to change as Pakistan has given the grid references to all its posts in the Western border to the US in good faith and as part of an agreed communication line. This is clearly being abused hence the attack on the PA posts recently. To avoid such high casualties these post positions will have to change. 

However I do believe that PA would already have done that by now.........


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## patna_ke_presley

wmdisinfo said:


> India will be and is with NATO/US and if any war breaks out between Pakistan US and will be a great disaster for the region and the world.and it will be only conventional warfare because china will side with pakistan if india jumps in.



India won't jump in. US alone has budget og $600 Billion vs Pakistan's $5 billion. Do you really think Americans will need India when unlike Afghanistan, Pakistan have Arabian sea coast.


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## genmirajborgza786

wmdisinfo said:


> India will be and is with NATO/US and if any war breaks out between Pakistan US and will be a great disaster for the region and the world.and it will be only conventional warfare because china will side with pakistan if india jumps in.



they have got enough of problem as it is in the south china sea trust me India is not the problem here but if the indo-pak relationship can be utilized wisely as i said India might be the triumph card for Pakistan here ( after all they can't be that foolish to risk it all for the U.S )

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## 53fd

r3alist said:


> however the us has said it reserves the right to come into pak territory if it really wants to



Where did you get that?


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## Edevelop

wmdisinfo said:


> India will be and is with NATO/US and if any war breaks out between Pakistan US and will be a great disaster for the region and the world.and it will be only conventional warfare because china will side with pakistan if india jumps in.



India and China have to keep up with their economy. Verbally, China will support Pakistan, but i highly doubt that they would physically jump in, in any Pakistan's war. Same goes with Russia...

You have to understand the fact that there is no such thing is allies or friends. There are only mutual interests.

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## Luftwaffe

patna_ke_presley said:


> India won't jump in. US alone has budget og $600 Billion vs Pakistan's $5 billion. Do you really think Americans will need India when unlike Afghanistan, Pakistan have Arabian sea coast.



Great thinking, Now think did $600B yearly had end Afghan War?, Win Afghan War? Made friends?, Win people's hearts?, Over come those ill equip jihadists talibans-AQ?, the Answer to it is US-NATO miserably failed in 11 Years history repeated it just as russians lost. So if US can use 600B against 170 Million Pakistani and consider to win it they are welcome to try it, Pakistan will severely lose but US will be 3X in miserable position-condition where russia was after afghan war.

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## W.11

why kayani is not declaring emergency at the western border, deploy SAMs babur cruise, mltilaunch vehicle etc


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## blain2

Although I cannot comment to the veracity of these reports, the specific reaction is specifically for responding to ANA instigation. The units will still be getting clearance up the command chain for engagements involving NATO troops. While that can be hard to figure if the NATO troops are with the ANA or not, but the ANA movement and actions are observed and I suspect this step is in reaction to the ANA.

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## W.11

genmirajborgza786 said:


> normalize relationship with India as much as possible



thanks but no thanks, indians are already collaborating with the allied forces, and feeding terror from afghan border in balochistan, we can trust a snake esp which has stake in afghanistan

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## W.11

blain2 said:


> Although I cannot comment to the veracity of these reports, the specific reaction is specifically for responding to ANA instigation. The units will still be getting clearance up the command chain for engagements involving NATO troops. While that can be hard to figure if the NATO troops are with the ANA or not, but the ANA movement and actions are observed and I suspect this step is in reaction to the ANA.



what has it got to do with the ground attack, NATO killed your 24 men from air, and NATO not ANA did it, its like you are strapping the bandage in the wrong leg, or a dentist taking out the wrong teeth


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## blain2

KarachiPunk said:


> why kayani is not declaring emergency at the western border, deploy SAMs babur cruise, mltilaunch vehicle etc



Discretion is the better part of valour. Not everything has to be announced openly, publicly with chest thumping.

It will be interesting to see how the ANA will be supported in the future given the tough fiscal situation in all of the donor countries:
Afghanistan faces $4bn defence funding shortfall | World news | guardian.co.uk

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## W.11

alphamale said:


> do u want more casualties at ur border??????. i don't understand why kayani gave that order, retaliation against NATO will only increase more trouble.



are you stupid?? what we just suffered??? a gift pack was dispatched by NATO heli??


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## blain2

KarachiPunk said:


> what has it got to do with the ground attack, NATO killed your 24 men from air, and NATO not ANA did it, its like you are strapping the bandage in the wrong leg, or a dentist taking out the wrong teeth



Seems to be a decent strategy. It makes sense to me. The ANA has been involved in every single incident involving xborder firing incidents. A lot of the firing that goes on does not even have anything to do with the Taliban, rather the Durrand line issue.

So the Army may have decided that they will hit the "soft underbelly" (ANA) of the security triumvirate comprising of the US, ISAF and the ANA.

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## Pak1Samurai

patna_ke_presley said:


> India won't jump in. US alone has budget og $600 Billion vs Pakistan's $5 billion. Do you really think Americans will need India when unlike Afghanistan, Pakistan have Arabian sea coast.




usa also have budged of $600 bln against talibans


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## StandForInsaf

Demands could be to ensure Pakistan's interest in region and stop attacking on Pakistan area , and get their ***** back to home as soon as possible.
What ever they say this WOT is foreign war and not economical for Pakistan to fight , better for us to end this.


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## RazPaK

> what has it got to do with the ground attack, NATO killed your 24 men from air, and NATO not ANA did it, its like you are strapping the bandage in the wrong leg, or a dentist taking out the wrong teeth



The ANA are Nato's cannon fodder i.e. new lapdogs.


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## Edevelop

If the Americans (So called 'worlds super power') cannot fight against Taliban (who have just AK-47s) then how the heck would they counter PA? Our 24 troops were killed because if you read some news reports, one of our army member had said that NATO helicopters were hovering just within the boarder, 1-2 km, something like that. At the end of the day, NATO is scared and the fact is they can't fight on the ground. We have seem them cowardly during OBL raid using stealth technology.


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## blain2

alphamale said:


> it was a one off incident, do u want too see it on daily basis????



Well one thing for sure, if this goes down to the level of daily, the other side won't be sitting all snug and safe either. But you are right, its in nobody's interest to see this get out of hand.

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## alphamale

Pak1Samurai said:


> usa also have budged of $600 bln against talibans



that is a diff issue but see where Afghanistan stands today. do u want to see Pakistan standing at same ground.

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## W.11

alphamale said:


> it was a one off incident, do u want too see it on daily basis????



one off?? killing 24 of the 'allies', its like russians killing indians, and its not one off, 75 soldiers have been killed by NATO air raids


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## RazPaK

Remember friends. Nato are the worlds biggest drug dealers. They are distributing 90% of the world's opium from Afghanistan to fund their escapades in the region.

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## Karachihunk

Shamsi Airbase is not at all important for United States.Their drones are not operating from there.Dont know why some of my country men are flying so high thinking that it is going to dent americans ambitions..If we remember correctly we have asked americans to evacuate it in the past as well but that was just to fool the masses in Pakistan..Stay on ground and everything will be in place i.e resuming nato supplies and drone attacks..

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## Machoman

If this is true then holy $hit........... this going to be fun to watch now.................


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## Luftwaffe

RazPaK said:


> Remember friends. Nato are the worlds biggest drug dealers. They are distributing 90% of the world's opium from Afghanistan to fund their escapades in the region.



NATO is pretty happy with the cash money they hoard got from gaddafi an astounding $50B, next is syrian bashar-al-assad with $122B.

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## unicorn

*Chinese media outrage on NATO attack on Pakistan*


BEIJING: The Chinese print and electronic media has shown complete solidarity with Pakistan following the 26th November NATO-ISAF attack on Pakistani check-posts and expressed their outrage giving a clear message to the world that Sino-Pakistan friendship is rock-solid.

Chinas leading news resource and official news agency, Xinhua published dozens of news items in its Chinese as well as English editions focusing on various facets of the incident, highlighting the violation of Pakistans sovereignty.

One of its reports said that the NATO raid is seen as a serious blow for peace efforts in Afghanistan and to already strained relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The most significant article appeared in Chinas most influential newspaper the Peoples Daily titled The Anti-terror War Should Also Follow the Rules. The Chinese language newspaper has a circulation of 3.5 million in addition to millions of clicks on its online edition.

Referring to the airstrikes the paper said that the debate about the nature of the incident gives rise to some important questions  How would the US-led war on terror continue? How will it impact the world? Such anti-terrorism operations will risk provoking the people who sympathize with and support terrorism; and, in consequence, take innocent lives and violate international laws. The US is, in effect, cultivating and adding to the fertility of the soil that breeds terrorism. The news analysis said that since 2004, US drones have killed more than 1,000 terrorists in Pakistans tribal areas, resulting in heavy civilian casualties and a sharp rise in anti-American sentiment among the people of Pakistan. Yet, Pakistan and the US are joined together in the fight against terrorism.

Most of the Chinese media following the incident wrote and broadcast detailed analyses, editorials and programs in support of Pakistan and urged the international community to respect the integrity, sovereignty and territorial integrity of the country.

Pakistan has not only paid a huge cost in human and economic terms, its ability to control its domestic security has been systematically weakened. This is not only harmful to the future of the global struggle against terrorism, but also endangers long-term future stability of the region and beyond.

The NATO and US should reflect on Saturdays incident, and not confine themselves to issuing apologies and carrying out technical analyses of the airstrikes. If they do not learn to respect Pakistans independence, territorial integrity, and sovereignty, there is a danger that accidental bombings may recur, the article maintained.

Chinas most popular and widely circulated English daily, China Daily printed a picture, showing the coffins of Pakistani martyrs, in five columns at its back page. The paper also prominently printed the news of Pakistan Cabinets decision of not attending the Bonn Conference on Afghanistan. The report was primarily based on the papers own correspondents in Islamabad and Washington.

In an editorial, China Daily asked the US to mend ties with Pakistan. It said The latest friendly fire incident in Pakistan has plunged the already strained relationship between the United States and Pakistan to a new low. The write-up emphasized that Washington needs to understand its ties with Pakistan should be based on mutual trust and respect.

Shanghais leading English newspaper, Shanghai Daily published a report quoted the Pakistani military sources as claiming that NATO airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers lasted for almost two hours and even after commanders at the bases pleaded with coalition forces to stop. Chinas another leading English language daily; Global Times published a similar story titled Pakistan says NATO attack was blatant aggression. The story quotes Pakistans DG MO, Maj. Gen. Ishfaq Nadeem as saying that NATO forces were alerted they were attacking Pakistani posts but helicopters kept firing.

In a news analysis titled Pakistan-US ties worsen Global Times published a news analysis that said that after the Lethal cross-border NATO air strikes on Saturday relations between Pakistan and the US have plunged into deep crisis as Pakistan decided to boycott the Bonn Conference and dismissed business as usual with Washington. The same article was re-printed by Chinas biggest web portal 

In another article titled Unintended NATO bombing smell fishy, published in Global Times, the author appropriately mentioned that NATO military has stuck a nail in Pakistan. Even if they get the nail out some day, a hole will be left. If Washington sees the hole as of little importance, then their understanding of South Asia is fundamentally false.

_CCTV telecast nearly 40 news segments and reports since the NATO attacks focusing on the worsening of Pakistan US-NATO ties, Vacation of Shamsi air base and protests taking place at various places in Pakistan, stressing Pakistans huge sacrifices in the war against terrorism and the need for the countrys relations with the US to be based on mutual respect.
_
ONLINE - International News Network


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## Pak1Samurai

alphamale said:


> that is a diff issue but see where Afghanistan stands today. do u want to see Pakistan standing at same ground.



dude dont worry about us we know how to defend our nation and dont underestimate Pakistan


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## RazPaK

> NATO is pretty happy with the cash money they hoard got from gaddafi an astounding $50B, next is syrian bashar-al-assad with $122B.



That money will be used as medicine for the dying Eurzone. 


Nato uses Opium sales to fund their projects. The reason Nato is pissed at Pakistan closing the border routes is because all this opium is shipped out from Karachi. They can't use to their so called Northern routes, for their drug smuggling operation.


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## Luftwaffe

It would be interested if NATO appears along side ANA, would a strong retaliation be and take place.

Between PAF statement is communication was down so PAF couldn't take action-scramble, seriously they can't find the Post? or radars couldn't detect targets close to borders, such a lie.

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## alphamale

Pak1Samurai said:


> dude dont worry about us we know how to defend our nation and dont underestimate Pakistan



i m not underestimating ur army but my point is that a war with U.S will crumble ur already weak economy. the result of the war do not matter, the thing that matters is where will be pakistan economically after such a war with all types of sanctions.

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## Karachihunk

Luftwaffe said:


> It would be interested to see if NATO appears along side ANA, would a strong retaliation be and take place.



BANG BANG BANG, it's gonna interesting now.You bet NATO is going nowhere.They will stay over there and will do whateva they wanna do.They dont give ******* **** to people like kayani,zardari and geelani..They have been paid for this dirty game.Only the people I really care about are the poor soldiers who wont get anything out of all this.

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## blain2

patna_ke_presley said:


> It seems that Pakistan won't accept apology only as said by many Pakistan ministers and public sentiment. What Americans must do to please Pakistan so that their supply route can be started again.



No more of these calculated attacks on our positions. Pakistan wants these issues to wind down and not be instigated especially as we get into the end game with the bulk of ISAF forces departing the country.


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## Mabs

The order is only applicable on the Western front. Kayani would have been under a lot of pressure from within the military to take such a decision. In my opinion, this step is geared more towards putting a lid on the rising anger and sense of helplessness within the army than NATO.

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## Awesome

These things shouldn't be announced. Till we don't see a black hawk down, we won't know if its true or not and why tell them we are going to shoot at you so they can come prepared.

Till we don't retaliate it would just seem like a variation of "Hun aa tay main tenu dasna aan"

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## RazPaK

Kiyani is starting to definitely feel the heat from within his ranks.

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## jynxed

NO NO NO NO NO NO 

OK First of all Indians and Pakistanis can live peacefully together in US and other countries not just in their own. There is a big question mark there. We have almost same cultures ya well we have different religious believes but so what we are like cousins and we need to find ways to get a long because there are two things. You think once pakistan is fully dis functional, India is not going to have more problems? if there is lawlessness in Pakistan it will bleed into India and create more problems so what we need is educated and fresh young brains on both sides. Get rid of differences and get our people on both side of the border out of poverty 
Now as for the whole deal with this 24 soldiers dying well no do not blame US, do not blame India, do not blame Israel 
BLAME YOURSELF !!! (im included) STOP BLAMING OTHER NATIONS FOR YOUR **** UPS and yes WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE OF YOUR ACTIONS YOUR POOR DECISIONS 
TO KEEP IT SIMPLE 
First of all Protest your own leaders WTF have they been doing for past 20 years 
Did your school systems have changed? 
have your system for Taxes has changed 
Corruption went down or up? 
Just stop and listen to the speech of your president (**** i thought Bush was bad) 
Your own Media is more corrupt then everything else in Pakistan 
Where is your Industry? Who is it profiting? 
Where is your Military ? You think you made JF17 so you are bad *** (WAKE UP THEY ARE CRAP) compare to a 30 year old technology ex: F16 
What has your govts in past 20 years done for your country and for common man except for raising prices on everything ? 
Why are you relying on other nations so much for money and aid? 
Where is that US aid that we get has gone ? 
Why is Pakistani Public not asking questions to the Govt? 
Why is there no protests such as occupy Wallstreet in pakistan in all major cities and small against Govt ? 
Why aren't the other branches of Govt checking each other to make sure everything should run smoothly? 
IS PAKISTAN EVEN A COUNTRY ANYMORE? 


So no do not blame INDIA or US or Israel for anything you have done this to yourself with your own hands 

I am a Pakistani and I have been seeing this with both of my eyes opened not just one 

(please do not get all melo dramatic on me with your nationalism because I am one of you the only difference is I like to know the truth and know what I have to work with instead of just sitting there day dreaming with my eyes open)

If we have opened our eyes 20 years ago or so 
No country including US would have been able to even think of crossing our border lines let alone attacking our post 
but.......................
ohh BTW read this from Quran 

&#8220;O you who have faith (in Allah) do not take (such) Jews and (such) Christians as your friends and allies who themselves are friends and allies of each other. And whoever from amongst you turns to them (for friendship and alliance) now belong to them (and not to us). Surely Allah does not guide a wicked people.&#8221;

(Qur&#8217;&#257;n, al-M&#257;ida, 5:51)

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## waheed gul

Allahu Akbar! Battle orders has been released by the Chief of Army staff General Kayani. Now all Pak army formaitons will not have to take permisison from HQ's to fire at and attack the enemy targets posing threats to Pak Sarzameen and Pakstani Muslims. All hostile threats will be taken out and destroyed by all front line formaitons without needing any further permisison or clearance.

Alhamdolillah, this is what we expetced from our Sipah Salar! The entire Pakistani nation is with the armed forces, shoulder to shoulder, ready to bury the crusaders deep. All US presnece in Pakistani air bases is being eliminated and InshAllah, anti-aircraft batteries would also be moved to the front line.

The orders are both Eastern and western fronts, lest Indians start their day dreaming!

In the Supreme Court also, the governent has directly gone to war with the Chief Justice and Supreme Court. All traitors are ganging together to defend Hussain Haqqani and to block NRO decision of the court. Now it is time for the SC to rise to the challnage and to uphold the justice. SC will fight the govt in the court while the army is now battle ready on eastern and western theatres.

The enemies of Pakistan are in total panic and today even the most rabid snakes in media were talking patriotic laguage as they can see the rope of hangmen around their necks now  . The reaction from a Muslim nation has shocked and dazed the enemies, alhamdolillah. Be ready. The time has come. A physical war can start without any further notice!!

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## zaiby

freaking great news..


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## hatf IX

waheed gul said:


> Allahu Akbar! Battle orders has been released by the Chief of Army staff General Kayani. Now all Pak army formaitons will not have to take permisison from HQ's to fire at and attack the enemy targets posing threats to Pak Sarzameen and Pakstani Muslims. All hostile threats will be taken out and destroyed by all front line formaitons without needing any further permisison or clearance.
> 
> Alhamdolillah, this is what we expetced from our Sipah Salar! The entire Pakistani nation is with the armed forces, shoulder to shoulder, ready to bury the crusaders deep. All US presnece in Pakistani air bases is being eliminated and InshAllah, anti-aircraft batteries would also be moved to the front line.
> 
> The orders are both Eastern and western fronts, lest Indians start their day dreaming!
> 
> In the Supreme Court also, the governent has directly gone to war with the Chief Justice and Supreme Court. All traitors are ganging together to defend Hussain Haqqani and to block NRO decision of the court. Now it is time for the SC to rise to the challnage and to uphold the justice. SC will fight the govt in the court while the army is now battle ready on eastern and western theatres.
> 
> The enemies of Pakistan are in total panic and today even the most rabid snakes in media were talking patriotic laguage as they can see the rope of hangmen around their necks now  . The reaction from a Muslim nation has shocked and dazed the enemies, alhamdolillah. Be ready. The time has come. A physical war can start without any further notice!!



this is good, but the question is, are they provided with man held "ground to air" missiles like anza or etc . . . if yes than it is the news of the month, but if not than i think its nothing . . . .


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## Machoman

self deleted


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## Mabs

patna_ke_presley said:


> It seems that Pakistan won't accept apology only as said by many Pakistan ministers and public sentiment. What Americans must do to please Pakistan so that their supply route can be started again.



To PLEASE Pakistan, Zardari wants a lap dance from Palin and Nawaz wants Baker to tell the world that she didn't reject him - They just had varying schedules and the whole long - distance 'thing' wasn't working out, and that HE ended it !

I am sorry, I had to say this.

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## RazPaK

There's a hint that the PAF will be more pro-active in defending our borders, by Kiyani criticizing them.


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## Luftwaffe

r3alist said:


> us has said it reserves the right to come into pak territory if it really wants to



What rights? Just by saying rights become legal?.


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## waheed gul

yes Inshallah ,,


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## Safriz

UAE is not being a friend here..All the NATO wants is Pakistan to attend Bonn conference so that they can make Pakistan sign agreement sto do al the dirty work for ISAF..
They will ask Pakistan to keep supporting the puppet government of Karzai and keep him safe and support him...and keep him safe from both internal and external insurgency..a task which Pakistan can ill afford.


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## unicorn

*Karzai to Taliban: talk peace and I'll protect you from Pakistan spies*


Taliban leaders living in Pakistan were offered resettlement packages for their families in Hamid Karzai's failed attempt to find peace partners free from the influence of Pakistani spies, Afghan officials have revealed.

Officials said the Afghan president's effort to find representatives to talk for the insurgents were scuppered by their unwillingness to jeopardise families given sanctuary in Pakistan, where they live under the sway of the Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI), which is accused of supporting the Taliban.

The initiative highlights the extraordinary grip Pakistan has over the Taliban leadership. And it showed the desire of the Karzai government to peel away a faction within the Quetta Shura, the insurgency's main decision-making body.

One diplomat in Kabul said families of high-ranking Taliban are often moved around Pakistan against their will and live under a loose house arrest. To overcome the problem the Afghan government, with Nato backing, hatched secret plans to move entire families to protected areas in Afghanistan.

"Such an operation would be difficult but not impossible," said a senior Afghan government official who did not wish to be named. "We have a red line on allowing our security forces to conduct operations inside Pakistan, but we were prepared to move the families. It would not have been a James Bond-style operation. We would have just used a few henchmen."

The effort never came to anything, he said, and the most recent offers to move families are on hold after the assassination of Burhanuddin Rabbani, Karzai's peace envoy. After Rabbani's death in September the Afghan president abandoned efforts to talk to the Taliban, saying he would engage directly with Pakistan.

Foreign experts and Afghan officials say the issue of families is a big stumbling block to peace efforts, giving the ISI an iron grip over the Taliban. "Every Taliban commander has his family in Pakistan," said a former Afghan official who has met the insurgents' representatives in the past.

He said the ISI tried to ensure all high-ranking Taliban kept their families in Pakistan. That included Quetta Shura members, frontline commanders and the "shadow governors" running the Taliban's alternative government in the Afghanistan's 34 provinces.

"It is a deliberate policy of ISI, who cannot trust people to fight unless they bring their family to Pakistan," the official said. "Any Taliban leader who wants to do something different will have to think twice because the family will be at risk."

That is what happened when it was revealed earlier this year that a Taliban functionary, Tayeb Agha, had been holding secret talks with the Americans.

"The story is that his family house was immediately surrounded and secured by the Pakistani police," said Antonio Giustozzi, research fellow in the Crisis States Centre at the London School of Economics. "His father was put under house arrest until Agha returned to Pakistan."

"There is a group interested in talks," a western official said. "They are fed up with the way they live: they know they are being used by Pakistan and that they can be manipulated at a moment's notice."

Karzai has struggled to turn such disillusionment into substantive talks, and has suffered a series of setbacks in his efforts to talk to the other side.

In February 2010, Abdul Ghani Baradar, one of the Taliban's most senior leaders who is from Karzai's Popolzai tribe, was arrested in Pakistan after he was found to have been talking unilaterally to the Afghans. Islamabad refused to hand over Baradar's young son to Afghan custody, despite lobbying by Kabul.

Last year it was revealed that a man posing as a Taliban envoy who met the Afghan president was an impostor.

The final disaster for Karzai's policy was when a Taliban suicide bomber killed Rabbani. Although the peace process is now generally thought to be on hold, foreign diplomats say the US has kept open lines of communication with the Taliban. Unlike the rounds involving Agha, the latest talks are being kept as secret as possible.

One American official said the process is being led by Marc Grossman, the US special representative to the region, who remains convinced a Taliban group can be "peeled off" from Pakistani influence. "Details about this process are in very short supply," said Giustozzi. "But the fact that it is continuing suggests the Pakistanis are allowing it to happen and have their own people involved. In that sense, it has their backing."

Karzai to Taliban: talk peace and I'll protect you from Pakistan spies | World news | The Guardian

Guardian is at the forefront in spreading Propaganda against Pakistan through out the develpoments that are coming as we are going further.

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## waheed gul

China have now sent a major 2nd battalion in defence and let NATO and America know pakistan is not alone.
China has also sent some of the major missiles near the border if an attack happens....my secret sources

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## RazPaK

^^Damn ISI be troooollllin.

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## RazPaK

> China have now sent a major 2nd battalion in defence and let NATO and America know pakistan is not alone.
> China has also sent some of the major missiles near the border if an attack happens....my secret sources




I've actually heard about the missiles being brought to the border as well.

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## I M Sikander

Mabs said:


> The order is only applicable on the Western front.* Kayani would have been under a lot of pressure from within the military to take such a decision.* In my opinion, this step is geared more towards putting a lid on the rising anger and sense of helplessness within the army than NATO.



These orders are nothing but yet another Kayani, zaradari *face saving tactic. *.
Kayani sucks. He is just trying is best to restore his reputation in lower rank javans by issuing such orders. The moment any post commander dares to shot at NATO or US, he will be court martial the next day.

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## Luftwaffe

waheed gul said:


> China have now sent a major 2nd battalion in defence and let NATO and America know pakistan is not alone. China has also sent some of the major missiles near the border if an attack happens....my secret sources



Okay what's next..and if an attack takes place what will China do fire missiles into afghanistan, please!

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## Mabs

Lol, I love it how they present us to be so sinister and powerful. I'm putting forward ISI's name for the next Batman sequel.

Put your hand up if you are with me on this.

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## Major Sam

waheed gul said:


> China have now sent a major 2nd battalion in defence and let NATO and America know pakistan is not alone.
> China has also sent some of the major missiles near the border if an attack happens....my secret sources



whats the authentication ?


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## Luftwaffe

usama waqas said:


> whats the authentication ?



authentication gul khan kaka.

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## waheed gul

Backdoor support chaina support Pakistan


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## Karachihunk

waheed gul said:


> Allahu Akbar! Battle orders has been released by the Chief of Army staff General Kayani. Now all Pak army formaitons will not have to take permisison from HQ's to fire at and attack the enemy targets posing threats to Pak Sarzameen and Pakstani Muslims. All hostile threats will be taken out and destroyed by all front line formaitons without needing any further permisison or clearance.
> 
> Alhamdolillah, this is what we expetced from our Sipah Salar! The entire Pakistani nation is with the armed forces, shoulder to shoulder, ready to bury the crusaders deep. All US presnece in Pakistani air bases is being eliminated and InshAllah, anti-aircraft batteries would also be moved to the front line.
> 
> The orders are both Eastern and western fronts, lest Indians start their day dreaming!
> 
> In the Supreme Court also, the governent has directly gone to war with the Chief Justice and Supreme Court. All traitors are ganging together to defend Hussain Haqqani and to block NRO decision of the court. Now it is time for the SC to rise to the challnage and to uphold the justice. SC will fight the govt in the court while the army is now battle ready on eastern and western theatres.
> 
> The enemies of Pakistan are in total panic and today even the most rabid snakes in media were talking patriotic laguage as they can see the rope of hangmen around their necks now  . The reaction from a Muslim nation has shocked and dazed the enemies, alhamdolillah. Be ready. The time has come. A physical war can start without any further notice!!



I have gone through first two lines and I was pretty sure who said this and he is none other than Zaid Hamid.
https://www.facebook.com/syedzaidzamanhamid

I don't believe a single word until I see some NATO deadbodies/heli/drone wreckage on Pak Afghan border. Only the time will tell....So far two face off....WE have back door channels for communication and on the other hand issuing such orders..... I am sure these statements are orchestrated on behest of US to calm down Pakistanis and Kayani is actually issuing empty threat to please the master in Washington.

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## regular

alphamale said:


> that is a diff issue but see where Afghanistan stands today. do u want to see Pakistan standing at same ground.


Hey! I guess stone age Pakistan is better than greedy cowardly @$$ Pakistan, where we won't have anything to loose against US/NATO ......


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## W.11

waheed gul said:


> Allahu Akbar! Battle orders has been released by the Chief of Army staff General Kayani. Now all Pak army formaitons will not have to take permisison from HQ's to fire at and attack the enemy targets posing threats to Pak Sarzameen and Pakstani Muslims. All hostile threats will be taken out and destroyed by all front line formaitons without needing any further permisison or clearance.
> 
> Alhamdolillah, this is what we expetced from our Sipah Salar! The entire Pakistani nation is with the armed forces, shoulder to shoulder, ready to bury the crusaders deep. All US presnece in Pakistani air bases is being eliminated and InshAllah, anti-aircraft batteries would also be moved to the front line.
> 
> The orders are both Eastern and western fronts, lest Indians start their day dreaming!
> 
> In the Supreme Court also, the governent has directly gone to war with the Chief Justice and Supreme Court. All traitors are ganging together to defend Hussain Haqqani and to block NRO decision of the court. Now it is time for the SC to rise to the challnage and to uphold the justice. SC will fight the govt in the court while the army is now battle ready on eastern and western theatres.
> 
> The enemies of Pakistan are in total panic and today even the most rabid snakes in media were talking patriotic laguage as they can see the rope of hangmen around their necks now  . The reaction from a Muslim nation has shocked and dazed the enemies, alhamdolillah. Be ready. The time has come. A physical war can start without any further notice!!

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## Pfpilot

RazPaK said:


> Son, when the Chinese fought the Americans and gave them a bloody nose in the Korean War, they hardly ever messed with China afterwards, even though China lost many troops. Maybe on a small scale here or there, but they will never go to war with China.
> 
> Remember you can reason with humans, but animals only learn with a stick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Classic case of bully. Bully only picks on the guy that doesn't fight back, under the current circumstances that would be Pakistan.
> 
> We may lose some of our troops, but that's why they are there for; to protect Pakistan. We didn't go Afghanistan and fire missiles at them.
> 
> The biggest beghairat is the one that is even scared to defend himself. Even Allah swt dislikes people that do not protect themselves. We are not the aggressors.



You seem to be sorely misguided in your understanding of the Korean War. The Americans dismissed one of their most decorated Generals because he was hellbent on taking the war into China. It had nothing to do with fear of China, but a general interest in avoiding prolonging and globalizing a local conflict. This isn't the 1950s, when technology was yet to completely overwhelm manpower.
I'm all for defending ourselves, but that decision should be more organized...not onto local troops with little understanding of the wider geo-political issues at play here. I understand Luftwaffe's point, it is important to take action...but I was merely questioning if we are making decisions just for the sake of doing something. We may yet, prevent further aggressive action by the US...but as a Pakistani, one cannot help but look at a worst case scenario and as a pacifist by nature, I will always be inclined to avoid conflict...possibly at the cost of strategic depth, but that's just a, likely flawed, personal opinion.

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## I M Sikander

RazPaK said:


> There's a hint that the PAF will be more pro-active in defending our borders, by Kiyani criticizing them.


How can Kayani criticize PAF? when he himself has done nothing but lip service during 8 attacks on PA and FC by NATO and US in last three years.

Instead of criticizing PAF, he should better ask Zardari to sack Chairman Joint chief of staff committee, it is actually the CJCSC office which coordinates any mutual operation.


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## opps

Its too clever by half by Gen.Kiyani by leaving the decision of retaliation on the troops.Troops will remember the 26th nov incident for their own good before retaliating in future.

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## President Camacho

unicorn said:


> Guardian is at the forefront in spreading Propaganda against Pakistan through out the develpoments that are coming as we are going further.



A lot of it appears to be speculation, but you cannot term all of it mere propaganda. 

From all the information coming out these days, there is a spontaneous change taking place in the Taliban leadership. There is a serious, and embarrassing tussle for power going on among the "subtribes" and is gradually making the Taliban immune to the influence coming from the eastern border. The main factions are Noorzai, and Durrani (or something like that - my HD crashed a week back).

If we can gather enough information, it will be much easier to figure out which way the Taliban is going and how is it affecting Pakistan's influence in Afghanistan.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

unicorn said:


> *Karzai to Taliban: talk peace and I'll protect you from Pakistan spies*
> 
> .



CHALOOO JII!!!


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## I M Sikander

waheed gul said:


> Allahu Akbar! Battle orders has been released by the Chief of Army staff General Kayani. Now all Pak army formaitons will not have to take permisison from HQ's to fire at and attack the enemy targets posing threats to Pak Sarzameen and Pakstani Muslims. All hostile threats will be taken out and destroyed by all front line formaitons without needing any further permisison or clearance.
> 
> Alhamdolillah, this is what we expetced from our Sipah Salar! The entire Pakistani nation is with the armed forces, shoulder to shoulder, ready to bury the crusaders deep. All US presnece in Pakistani air bases is being eliminated and InshAllah, anti-aircraft batteries would also be moved to the front line.
> 
> The orders are both Eastern and western fronts, lest Indians start their day dreaming!
> 
> In the Supreme Court also, the governent has directly gone to war with the Chief Justice and Supreme Court. All traitors are ganging together to defend Hussain Haqqani and to block NRO decision of the court. Now it is time for the SC to rise to the challnage and to uphold the justice. SC will fight the govt in the court while the army is now battle ready on eastern and western theatres.
> 
> The enemies of Pakistan are in total panic and today even the most rabid snakes in media were talking patriotic laguage as they can see the rope of hangmen around their necks now  . The reaction from a Muslim nation has shocked and dazed the enemies, alhamdolillah. Be ready. The time has come. A physical war can start without any further notice!!



*My God, My God.

chill dude chill. *

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## A1Kaid

Some of these reports need confirmation, and many people simply won't believe this until the next NATO deliberate incursion whether air or ground occurs and PA troops inflict causalities. Actions speak louder than words.

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## 53fd

It's funny how Karzai is shifting the blame from the Taliban to Pakistan. Just goes to show the anti-Pakistan regime in Afghanistan does not want peace with Pakistan, or stability in the region.

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## I M Sikander

waheed gul said:


> China have now sent a major 2nd battalion in defence and let NATO and America know pakistan is not alone.
> China has also sent some of the major missiles near the border if an attack happens....my secret sources



hahaha
Dude keep on joking

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## Last Hope

What a load of bull crap. In my bedroom, I have got newpaper cut outs and articles all over the walls. One of them, after the May 2 drama, says *'No more raids - Pakistan warns for strict actions'*. What happened now? Our men were fighting for 3 long hours and no air support/re-inforcement was sent from the back??

I used to be a huge fan of Kayani until I read the reports on him and his family. I have now strongly changed my views. 

As long as Kayani is here, Pakistan isin't doing anything. Just to share somethings I found out, his younger brother is a Colonol, who is leader of land-grabbing mafia. I still was in dilemma, he has done more goods than bads, but we cannot neglect any part of it.

One more thing that disturbs is the report I read claims one of our posts on Western border fired AAA and mortars on the chopper, apparantly missed them and they got killed too. The question arises how could they miss the choppers?! And that night, they fought without orders. All the SOPs were violated. They didn't need permission to fight, they had to do it. Air Marshal (Retred) Shahid Lateef says the NATO attacked as their agents were trapped. This was a rescue mission. 

Even if they come next time, and the orders aren't given, our men would fight back. Sometimes self-determined decision are better than the ones you get from high command. Unless Kayani here means he would send a full scale armed force to retaliate.

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## RazPaK

> CHALOOO JII!!!



Karzai is starting to panic. Once US starts exiting he will need all the friends he can get for talking so much **** to Pakistan. The guy is already sweating. lol.


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## lem34

Karzai is nothing more than a quisling. He truely is a traiter to afghani people. He would not last a day without the occupiers of afghanistan supporting him


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## Emmie

opps said:


> Its too clever by half by Gen.Kiyani by leaving the decision of retaliation on the troops.Troops will remember the 26th nov incident for their own good before retaliating in future.



Is this reasoning practiced there?


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## 53fd

So let me try to understand Karzai: he says Pakistan is responsible for everything in Afghanistan, but he would support Pakistan if there is a war between the US & Pakistan, & then he would "protect" the Taliban from the ISI! Karzai needs to get his head checked.


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## Secur

opps said:


> Its too clever by half by Gen.Kiyani by leaving the decision of retaliation on the troops.Troops will remember the 26th nov incident for their own good before retaliating in future.


 Why do you think everyone is a coward like you ?  Soldiers do not think like that just a food for your thought


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## opps

Omar1984 said:


>


It looks like tiger hills after it was captured in kargil.scene set up as it was bombarded by mirages day in day out.


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## Johny D

Kayani is a donkey in a tiger suit....it should be pak elected PM who is taking the decisions and not people like kayani....never allow armed person to take civillian decisions...


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## RazPaK

There is no doubt Kiyani is an American agent, but you guys fail to realize he has to appease the US/Zardari and his own Generals.


There is no way these attacks will stop if Pakistan does not start defending their air space. With every attack Nato grows bolder. I'm sorry if Fear is your only God. These are the ground realities.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

RazPaK said:


> Karzai is starting to panic. Once US starts exiting he will need all the friends he can get for talking so much **** to Pakistan. The guy is already sweating. lol.



pretty much!!!!

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## Emmie

Last Hope said:


> What a load of bull crap. In my bedroom, I have got newpaper cut outs and articles all over the walls. One of them, after the May 2 drama, says *'No more raids - Pakistan warns for strict actions'*. What happened now? Our men were fighting for 3 long hours and no air support/re-inforcement was sent from the back.
> 
> I used to be a huge fan of Kayani until I read the reports on him and his family. I have now strongly changed my views.
> As long as Kayani is here, Pakistan isin't doing anything. Just to share somethings I found out, his father was a army general too, and his younger brother is a Colonol, who is leader of land-grabbing mafia. I still was in dilemma, he has done more goods than bads, but we cannot neglect any part of it.
> 
> One more thing that disturbs is the report I read claims one of our posts on Western border fired AAA and mortars on the chopper, but they got killed too. The question arises how could they miss the choppers?! And that night, they fought without worder. All the SOPs were violated. They didn't need permission to fight, they had to do it. Air Marshal (Retred) Shahid Lateef says the NATO attacked as their agents were trapped. This was a rescue mission.
> 
> Even if they come next time, and the orders aren't given, our men would fight back. Sometimes self-determined decision are better than the ones you get from high command. Unless Kayani here means he would send a full scale armed force to retaliate.



I never expected this from you... Anyway, care to share the link of report you read?


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## blain2

Last Hope said:


> What a load of bull crap. In my bedroom, I have got newpaper cut outs and articles all over the walls. One of them, after the May 2 drama, says *'No more raids - Pakistan warns for strict actions'*. What happened now? Our men were fighting for 3 long hours and no air support/re-inforcement was sent from the back.
> 
> I used to be a huge fan of Kayani until I read the reports on him and his family. I have now strongly changed my views.
> As long as Kayani is here, Pakistan isin't doing anything. Just to share somethings *I found out, his father was a army general too, and his younger brother is a Colonol, who is leader of land-grabbing mafia. I still was in dilemma, he has done more goods than bads, but we cannot neglect any part of it.*
> 
> One more thing that disturbs is the report I read claims one of our posts on Western border fired AAA and mortars on the chopper, but they got killed too. The question arises how could they miss the choppers?! And that night, they fought without worder. All the SOPs were violated. They didn't need permission to fight, they had to do it. Air Marshal (Retred) Shahid Lateef says the NATO attacked as their agents were trapped. This was a rescue mission.
> 
> Even if they come next time, and the orders aren't given, our men would fight back. Sometimes self-determined decision are better than the ones you get from high command. Unless Kayani here means he would send a full scale armed force to retaliate.



What was your source for the above news? Jang or Nawa-i-waqt?

Kiyani is the first CoAS whose father was a NCO. As far as I am aware, he is the only one from the family in the Army.

Pakistan will go down the drain if we do not stop this habit of killing each other with hyperbole, rumors and conspiracy theories.

This recent attack was not a raid. It was a border skirmish. Border skirmishes go on for hours at times (with the Indians they used to run into days).

This decision that is being discussed has not been proven to be true or false. Its just a rumor, among the million others that clog Pakistan's airwaves and around which we eat our lunches and dinners.

I know one thing for sure, something like this next time will result in a reaction. Whether that will be good for anyone remains to be seen and should also be a moment for pause for the ISAF and their ANA pathfinders.

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## Last Hope

Emmie said:


> I never expected this from you... Anyway, care to share the link of report you read?


The report on the incident was published in Express Tribune, and the report on Kayani's family is.... is not available for Civilians. Trust me, he isin't the right man. I happened to ask my sources on his reports after the incident, and what I found was eye opening. 

My signature may come in handy.

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## Vassnti

bilalhaider said:


> It's funny how Karzai is shifting the blame from the Taliban to Pakistan. Just goes to show the anti-Pakistan regime in Afghanistan does not want peace with Pakistan, or stability in the region.



Which came first was Karzai anti pakistan or was Pakistan anti Karzai? 
Yes Karzai seems to be getting more and more strident in his attacks on Pakistan but what do you expect from a guy who thinks Pakistans plan for him post US involves a blindfold and a last cigarette?


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## 53fd

President Camacho said:


> A lot of it appears to be speculation, but you cannot term all of it mere propaganda.
> 
> From all the information coming out these days, there is a spontaneous change taking place in the Taliban leadership. There is a serious, and embarrassing tussle for power going on among the "subtribes" and is gradually making the Taliban immune to the influence coming from the eastern border. The main factions are Noorzai, and Durrani (or something like that - my HD crashed a week back).
> 
> If we can gather enough information, it will be much easier to figure out which way the Taliban is going and how is it affecting Pakistan's influence in Afghanistan.



The Taliban have never been one unified faction or entity. It has always been divided into tribes & sub-tribes. There are different Taliban commanders for different regions. There are frequent tussles between different rival groups within the Taliban. The only factor that seems to hold them together is their allegiance to Mullah Omar. The problem in Afghanistan isn't how strong or weak the Taliban is, but the lack of credibility the current regime has, & how divided the Afghans, & Afghanistan as a country is.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

opps said:


> It looks like tiger hills after it was captured in kargil.scene set up as it was bombarded by mirages day in day out.



not far from same place where some enemy aircrafts were blasted out from the sky by numerically inferior and much lighter equipped warriors


Air Defenders of Pakistan Army Who Shot down Two Indian Fighter Jets in Kargil War - - YouTube

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## Secur

opps said:


> Cowa.


 Oh yeah ! Start trolling the thread by relating border raid with Kargil ... Typical Indian habit isn't it ?

Cracks in chain of command ?  Did you even read the report and even more important understood it ?

Whats the definition of fake remorse ? Shutting off NATO supplies completely and transferring the final orders to the area level commanders ? 

I would very well have given answer for that trolling attempt but lets not derail the thread ...

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## RazPaK

Actions speak louder than words. Last time we had border skirmish, Kiyani was seen taking the same old cliche tough guy stance, but it's funny to see that he continuously pursues Nato's interests.

He's trapped between Nato/Zardari and his own Generals that are considering to overthrow him. The situation between between the government and army is tense at worst, with Kiyani taking fire from all sides.


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## Secur

Last Hope said:


> The report on the incident was published in Express Tribune, and the report on Kayani's family is.... is not available for Civilians. Trust me, he isin't the right man. I happened to ask my sources on his reports after the incident, and what I found was eye opening.
> 
> My signature may come in handy.


 Sure we wont question your sources ... Personally , I am friends with COAS and he's a damn fine man trust me ... You do not need sources now , do you ? 

Usual conspiracy theories ... Some people never appreciate the brave measures taken by army

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## PeacefulIndian

It is crystal clear that whoever carried out the attacks knew exactly what they were doing. I have closely followed the US air strike procedures. 

ANY requested air strike has to be authorized by several levels of military command. While the authorizations are being sought the coordinates of the target are conveyed to the ground command center. They view the area thru satellites, weigh if the target is friendly or hostile and check if the target is already known (in this case it was) etc. Once all the authorizations are obtained the air strike request is cleared and target is engaged. This process would be followed even if somebody saw OBL walking on the streets of Kabul and requested an air strike. 

There is simply no room to go wrong. The only part to debate is - why did they do this and what were their objectives. The 'error' thing is too incredible to buy.

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## Pakistanisage

mr42O said:


> ARY News :- Army cheif has given his troops to answer any attack from any one. Does not need permissions any more as they did before.....





Every nation reserves the right to self defense. Pakistan should respond with overwhelming force if attacked in the future. What is the point of having an Army, Air Force and Navy if you do not defend yourself ? 

Shoot first and ask Questions later,,,

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## Emmie

Last Hope said:


> The report on the incident was published in Express Tribune, and the report on Kayani's family is.... is not available for Civilians. Trust me, he isin't the right man. I happened to ask my sources on his reports after the incident, and what I found was eye opening.
> 
> My signature may come in handy.



Whatever your source is it looms to be slanted, character assassination to be precise. Give me one single example that shows Kayani had gone strayed when it came to national interests? Keep that in mind the entity you would go head on is numrious times stronger than you by every mean..

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## Last Hope

blain2 said:


> What was your source for the above news? Jang or Nawa-i-waqt?
> 
> *Kiyani is the first CoAS whose father was a NCO. As far as I am aware, he is the only one from the family in the Army.*


I am no conspiracy theorist and I totally agree with you. The story of Kayani's ancestors is unclear. Maybe you are right. But I am sure about the Colonal brother of his.


Secur said:


> Sure we wont question your sources ... Personally , I am friends with COAS and he's a damn fine man trust me ... You do not need sources now , do you ?
> 
> Usual conspiracy theories ... Some people never appreciate the brave measures taken by army



Please. I used to be as great fan of Kayani as you are. The sooner you see the truth the better. I am not neglecting the sacrifises. The young fighters are top class. But the highier management is screwed up.



Emmie said:


> Whatever your source is it looms to be slanted, character assassination to be precise. Give me one single example that shows Kayani had gone strayed when it came to national interests? Keep that in mind the entity you would go head on is numrious times stronger than you by every mean..



He had recently 'sweeped' the forces and many were court martialed for being corrupt. But the fact he has not taken any action against his brother makes him on the list of doubtful people serving. I have got my trust in Shuja Pasha though.

The way of operation of Pakistani Government is a ring. It is a trio which controls everything, the President, COAS and the Prime Minister. If COAS wills, he could have haulted many things. Everything seems so broken nothing is fitting to make the picture.


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## blain2

opps said:


> Coward?it shows cracks in chain of command in PA a.



Rubbish!

PA and IA have always exchanged the dead or delivered the dead to each other without the glare of the media. This was the one and only reason PA did not want to collect the troops from the Indian side because they wanted to score a PR point during the conflict.

Cracks in the chain of command? Do you think the American commanders don't hear about the frustration of their troops in their wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? The same goes here. Those serving in the Army are not making policy but guarding their posts. If they do not forcefully respond then the obvious questions of "why not" comes up and this is what Kiyani may be responding to. 

Spare us your "unprofessional PA" assessment. Our troops aren't the ones caught on the heights of Siachen with tomato sauce /ketchup to fake encounters and collect medals.

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## Irfan Baloch

waheed gul said:


> China have now sent a major 2nd battalion in defence and let NATO and America know pakistan is not alone.
> China has also sent some of the major missiles near the border if an attack happens....my secret sources



please dont talk bull

Chinese are astute businessmen not mercenaries to fight war for another country. Only Americans do that on behalf of Israelis and they will do that again by attacking Iran and/ or Syria. Although we have been blamed for being hired guns by pro-Taliban brigade and Indian trolls but it was in response to the TTP which had already started a war against us once the chaos from Afghan war reached us.

This report is only for the public consumption, no such order would be made to the troops that negates the standard SOPs and rules of engagement. These are the two points that Pakistan Army is blaming the NATO for when they repeatedly told them to stop and warned them about blue and blue and despite that they returned and continued the slaughter of the soldiers that only had mortars and machine guns for the Taliban.

A better way will be that PAF flies CAP along the border that serves as a deterrent for NATO pilots from crossing the border again.

Ground troops can also have dedicated air defence in case NATO ignores their calls and decides to replay the attack once more. But before all this, any incursion has to be reported to HQ so that the commanders can contact the NATO and avert the fight but if that fails (like it did last time) request the PAF to come for help and use the ground based defence systems to retaliate and give them a better fight than last time. That way NATO wont have anything to complain.

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## Vassnti

Pakistanisage said:


> Every nation reserves the right to self defense. Pakistan should respond with overwhelming force if attacked in the future. What is the point of having an Army, Air Force and Navy if you do not defend yourself ?
> 
> *Shoot first and ask Questions later*,,,



Isnt shooting first and asking questions later the very behavior you are condeming the US for?

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## 53fd

Vassnti said:


> Which came first was Karzai anti pakistan or was Pakistan anti Karzai?



Pakistan gave him refuge in their country, along with millions of Afghans, when he fled from Afghanistan. And he even lived in Pakistan before that. So that should answer your question. 



> Yes Karzai seems to be getting more and more strident in his attacks on Pakistan but what do you expect from a guy who thinks Pakistans plan for him post US involves a blindfold and a last cigarette?



If that is the case, why did he say he would support Pakistan in a US-Pakistan war? If that is the case, why is he hosting foreign forces in Afghanistan in the first place? These forces are fighting the Taliban, who have control over most of the country, who Karzai wants to "protect" from the ISI, his conjoined brothers. You cannot justify (Karzai's) insanity. Karzai needs to get his head checked.


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## Al Bhatti

RazPaK said:


> Karzai is starting to panic. Once US starts exiting he will need all the friends he can get for talking so much **** to Pakistan. The guy is already sweating. lol.


 
Well, he might be very well be wetting his trousers as well, wonder after the stock of the USA/NATO supplied toilet rolls finish what will he do as he has become used to the western way.

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## Bhairava

Very bad move.

Will give rise to unnecessary confrontations/escalations in the future without accountability.

In a pure shooting game, Pakistan is no match to NATO/ISAF.


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## Pakistanisage

Last Hope said:


> What a load of bull crap. In my bedroom, I have got newpaper cut outs and articles all over the walls. One of them, after the May 2 drama, says *'No more raids - Pakistan warns for strict actions'*. What happened now? Our men were fighting for 3 long hours and no air support/re-inforcement was sent from the back??
> 
> I used to be a huge fan of Kayani until I read the reports on him and his family. I have now strongly changed my views.
> 
> As long as Kayani is here, Pakistan isin't doing anything. Just to share somethings I found out, *his father was a army general too,* and his younger brother is a Colonol, who is leader of land-grabbing mafia. I still was in dilemma, he has done more goods than bads, but we cannot neglect any part of it.
> 
> One more thing that disturbs is the report I read claims one of our posts on Western border fired AAA and mortars on the chopper, apparantly missed them and they got killed too. The question arises how could they miss the choppers?! And that night, they fought without orders. All the SOPs were violated. They didn't need permission to fight, they had to do it. Air Marshal (Retred) Shahid Lateef says the NATO attacked as their agents were trapped. This was a rescue mission.
> 
> Even if they come next time, and the orders aren't given, our men would fight back. Sometimes self-determined decision are better than the ones you get from high command. Unless Kayani here means he would send a full scale armed force to retaliate.




General Kayani's father could not be a General as he was only a Junior Commissioned Officer (JCO). Only Commissioned officer rise to the rank of a General. As for his brother, General Kayani is responsible for his own conduct and not his Brother's. Can we hold you responsible for any member of your Family ?

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## Omar1984

*Russia could deliver death blow to Nato, say analysts *

ISLAMABAD: With the Russian threat to cut land routes for supply to NATO troops in Afghanistan, the Afghan battleground may turn into a cold death trap for NATO, defence analysts believe. They say that Pakistan should utilise the opportunity for a peaceful and prosperous Pakistan by pulling it out of the American war. 

Russia has threatened to cut off NATO supply routes to Afghanistan if the alliance doesn&#8217;t compromise on its missile defence plans. &#8220;If NATO doesn&#8217;t give a serious response, we have to address matters in relations in other areas,&#8221; Russian news services reported. Russia&#8217;s cooperation on Afghanistan may be an area for review, the news services reported. 

Pakistan has already cut the NATO supply route after the Mohmand Agency attack by NATO troops that killed twenty-six Pakistani soldiers. Lt General (retd) Hameed Gul while talking to The News said that Russia would utilise every option to take revenge from the Americans and time has come for the Russians to do this. He said that Russia wants to join hands with Pakistan and Pakistan should re-consider its policy towards Russia. &#8220;Americans and NATO troops have been strangled in Afghanistan and time has come for Pakistan to avail the opportunity that it missed on 9/11 to regain the respect and sovereignty&#8221;, Gul said. 

He mentioned that Americans will have to leave Afghanistan and will ask for concessions and Pakistan should negotiate with them for their exit. If Russia cuts the supply then the route will be from Georgia to Baku and then to Azerbaijan, which means NATO will never get the supply, said Gul. 

&#8220;Now NATO troops will have to exit Vietnam style, and that too by using Pakistan&#8217;s airspace because Iran will never let USA use its airspace&#8221;, the retired General said. He mentioned that the war against terror that was started with our own people will come to an end at once and there will be peace in no time once the Americans leave Afghanistan. He said that Indian interests in Afghanistan were growing but India will get nothing from Afghanistan. 

Maria Sultan, defence analyst, while talking to this correspondent said that if the Russians also cut the supply line of NATO then it will turn out to be cold death for NATO troops. &#8220;They will literally be strangled in Afghanistan with 90000 troops and as they admit that they have reserves for three months which actually means they have reserves for two months and then NATO will have to airlift the troops and during the airlift only 15 to 20 percent can be alive out of the 90000 troops&#8221;, Maria said. 

She mentioned that in Afghanistan, everything comes from outside and the insurgency this year has been very high as 700 causalities have been reported. Therefore after the Russian decision, Afghanistan will turn into a reverse Kargil for NATO. &#8220;They will have weapons but no bullets to fire; and if Pakistan shuts the air corridors on NATO then it would be a cold death for them and America will have to renegotiate with Pakistan&#8221;, she said.



Russia could deliver death blow to Nato, say analysts


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## Emmie

Last Hope said:


> He had recently 'sweeped' the forces and many were court martialed for being corrupt. But the fact he has not taken any action against his brother makes him on the list of doubtful people serving. I have got my trust in Shuja Pasha though.
> 
> The way of operation of Pakistani Government is a ring.* It is a trio which controls everything, the President, COAS and the Prime Minister. If COAS wills*, he could have haulted many things. Everything seems so broken nothing is fitting to make the picture.



Bold part is not reality, its COAS who sees major policies.

Anyway, lets stick to the topic..


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## pakistanitarzan

mr42O said:


> did any one asked u ? not welcome here go to momy daddy



Bad manners man! You are not suppose to treat people like that. He is a member of this forum and has as much right as you to comment upon this thread! He is most welcome here!

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## blain2

Last Hope said:


> Please. I used to be as great fan of Kayani as you are. The sooner you see the truth the better. I am not neglecting the sacrifises. The young fighters are top class. *But the highier management is screwed up.*



The part in bold is an oft-quoted point to make it look like the General staff is different from the rest of the Army. This is not the case. The senior officers are from the one and the very same "young fighters" class that you give high marks to. The difference is that at the higher levels, you are thinking more at the strategic level. I do not buy the argument that after spending 32 years in the Army and being put through the mill, the general staff (Lt Gens and above) simply sells out and becomes useless.

We need to stop thinking like this. Most of the senior officers are exposed to information/deliberations that the junior officers are not. The Corps commanders sit and deliberate on Pakistan's security responses day and night. But they are also limited in their abilities to do certain things owing to the available budget and capabilities.

Not giving these chaps a pass, but do realize the limitations with any action that we take.

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## Secur

To all , we are not here to discuss the personal character and life of COAS so spare us all these **** and bull conspiracy theories trying to assassinate his character ...

Stick to the topic Please ...

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## air marshal



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## blain2

Bhairava said:


> Very bad move.
> 
> Will give rise to unnecessary confrontations/escalations in the future without accountability.
> 
> In a pure shooting game, Pakistan is no match to NATO/ISAF.



Well no one wants a shooting war, but Pakistan's options aren't limited to just a shooting game.

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------




Emmie said:


> Bold part is not reality, its COAS who sees major policies.
> 
> Anyway, lets stick to the topic..



Not all major policies. The Army does have a dominant influence on regional security policy.

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## Secur

Last Hope said:


> Please. I used to be as great fan of Kayani as you are. The sooner you see the truth the better. I am not neglecting the sacrifises. The young fighters are top class. But the highier management is screwed up.
> 
> *The way of operation of Pakistani Government is a ring. It is a trio which controls everything, the President, COAS and the Prime Minister. If COAS wills, he could have haulted many things. Everything seems so broken nothing is fitting to make the picture.*


 Whatever you are saying may be true but there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary so i am obliged to believe otherwise ... I have stopped believing in conspiracy theories long ago ...

Yes , our COAS is appointed from CENTCOM and the Americans never went to the moon ...

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## Irfan Baloch

RazPaK said:


> I've actually heard about the missiles being brought to the border as well.



who told you that? even the unit that is being moved wont discuss this in the army gathering or with other units except the unit officers and senior JCOs and NCOs. the movement will be done at odd hours and will be very discrete without any word of destination and reason to move.
Either you are one of the unit officers (in which case you are violating the secrecy act) or you are speculating.

If its true then do tell what kind of missile systems that need to be moved next to the border? If they are the man pads then they are as useless as the 12.7mm or MG 1A3 those poor soldiers had because the NATO gunships are pretty much immune to the fire from these things. Anything bigger doesnt need to be moved and can take out the intruders from many a miles.

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## Secur

mardeqalandar said:


> Uncle Kiyyani Must Go home.... He is by product of Musharaf both of them are *Pervaizi*....!!!!


 Some new clan like the Sudairis or another conspiracy theory ?


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## Luftwaffe

PAF to PA communications were down couldn't take action, what the hell is that Northern Air Command for we have Radars that can look deep into Afghanistan, for 2 hours you saw bogeys on radar in a specific area and Air Chief says couldn't take action all PAF had to do was scramble and reach the Conflict Area these helos would have turn back, action was not necessary but presence was necessary.

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## kas786

All those who think this is a bad decision, or we should have more talks - NO. Pakistan has been humiliated and disgraced enough, now it's time to go all out. This continuous humiliation has caused us to lose confidence in ourselves. We are much powerful than we think we are. Declaring war on Pakistan is not a walk in the park.

"An honorable death is better than a dishonorable life"

Pakistan is no match for NATO? Hah!
The same NATO that took 8 months to take (69 year old) Gaddafi down?

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## maverick1977

bravado is a great trait, but there is a thin line between bravado and foolishness. Let me start by saying, If there was ack ack fired on allied troops then i guess Pakistani troops did retaliate and got the brunt of NATO forces. Now, the questions is, if Pakistani army reacted the way they reacted, then i guess it shows us the battle outcome clearly. PA lost that encounter with heavy losses. 

The only thing missing in the equation is the availability of MANPADs. Sounds like what i am hearing is that ack ack was present but was futile. Can some senior member share more on what weapns were available a troops disposal during unfortunate encounter? 

Now another interesting point is, Pakistan has established 820 border post on afghan border, are we implying that every post will carry MANPADs, if we are talking about 4 missile per post we are talking about 820x4 = ~ 3280 missiles delpoyed? If Pakistan is locally producing all these MANPADs then they need to replenish their stocks ASAP as well. we are talking about full scale war then? 

Question will be how much missile are there and how fast pakistan can procure and procude them. battles are only won if you have logistics to support a war, thats the rule no1 and then other rule is to use your reserves as tactfully as possible. 

Pakistan knows it very well, if it takes down NATO planes or helis, then western coutnries which alreayd has 70% + negative opinion about pakistan, will call for open war. How is the equation come into picture. is pakistan ready to fight a prolonged war. Guys, i know PA is very professional and die hard force, just look into oil reserves for war and logistics of it before taking any step. Pakistan doesnt want to end up in stone age as well.

Please refrain from being mad at me, i am throwing some questions out, think and then answer.

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## Emmie

Irfan Baloch said:


> If its true then do tell what kind of missile systems that need to be moved next to the border? *If they are the man pads then they are as useless as the 12.7mm or MG 1A3 those poor soldiers had* because the NATO gunship&#8217;s are pretty much immune to the fire from these things. Anything bigger doesn&#8217;t need to be moved and can take out the intruders from many a miles.



So no MANPADS in PA inventory can shoot down a gunship? RBS, ANZA?


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## air marshal




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## Last Hope

Emmie said:


> So no MANPADS in PA inventory can shoot down a gunship? RBS, ANZA?


 
They can shoot down the helicopters within certain range (height factor).


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## maverick1977

air marshal said:


>



what can i say!!!! i guess army chief knows what he is doing? who wouldve thought 20 years ago that it will all come down to this. Saddle up your horses guys, you guys are going for the most turbulent ride of your life. 

i always say this, "wars r won by nations who dont act foolish"


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## sohailbarki

mr42O said:


> lol were did i said raw ????? first of all no indian are welcome here with there stupid comments.
> 
> and about Indian and Isrealies want america attack Pakistan before leaving Afghanistan is reported by ur own newspapir....



Don't argue with these superstitious Indians.they are the most stupid people i have seen on earth.

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## Omar1984

*Pakistan army general calls deadly NATO raid an &#8216;act of aggression,&#8217; questions US probe*

ISLAMABAD &#8212; Pakistan army general calls deadly NATO raid an &#8216;act of aggression,&#8217; questions US probe.




Pakistan army general calls deadly NATO raid an &lsquo;act of aggression,&rsquo; questions US probe - The Washington Post

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## Emmie

Last Hope said:


> They can shoot down the helicopters within certain range (height factor).



So means they are not as bad as mentioned stuff.. IMO PA can shoot down a low flying object.


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## Mercenary

A very stupid decision.

Any border flare up could trigger a major clash. It is the job of the commanders to oversee these kinds of actions.

Does Kiyani lack communication equipment for his soldiers to call HQ and rely what is going on the ground? I mean how long does it really take to call HQ and get orders from top commanders that they are under attack.


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## Omar1984

^ Mercenary is an indian. Ignore this false-flagger. In another post he said india should be given a bigger role in Afghanistan.

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## Mercenary

mr42O said:


> Nato attacked Pakistanies in hope of Pakistan will answer back. Americans will find a reason to attack Pakistan as it cant do as today. When i mean attack i mean full scaled war in Waziristan etc.
> 
> Why Pakistani airforce wasnt sent in is because lets say full scale war is started Pakistani air force fuel which is blocked by Americans ships in arabian sea. If i am not wrong Pakistan cant get from Iran either. So in other words we are surrounded by enemy who want us to answer.
> 
> What i read in Indian newspapir India is fully prepared with isrealies to take out Pakistani defence and take out our nukes. Indian Isrealie lobby is working to get rid of our nukes before USA leave Afghanistan. They think they will never get this chance again.
> 
> Thats reason Pakistan did not completly cut of ties with Afgan taliban.*IF* they have any connection at all. I fully understand them now.



Why did NATO chooose to attack a remote outpost?

Why not attack a major military base and get the Pakistan Air Force involved in this?

These kinds of threads are yet another reason why there needs to be an intellect filter on membership in this forum.

People with ZERO knowledge like the poster who started this buffonish thread degrade the quality of debate on this forum and with the intellect filter in place, people like him cannot join such forums as they lack the intelligence to give meaningful contributions.

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## Imran Khan

why secret? its something illegal? i think its there right to retaliate without asking for permission

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## Mercenary

Omar1984 said:


> ^ Mercenary is an indian. Ignore this false-flagger. In another post he said india should be given a bigger role in Afghanistan.



I can only laugh 

You debate like a 5 year old child. And by your nick you are 27 years old. Sad, just sad. 

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------




Imran Khan said:


> why secret? its something illegal? i think its there right to retaliate without asking for permission



Depends on where you are stationed. 

If you are guarding a sensitive site like a Nuclear Storage Site, then absolutely, they have a right to realiate.

But on the border, that could trigger a major policy crisis, so its best for top commanders to give orders to retaliate rather than a solider going gung-ho.

And I ask again, how much trouble is it for a soldier on the border to radio HQ to ask for orders?

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## notsuperstitious

To OP's credit, this is the most intelligent thing he has posted ever.

I also agree that Indians should not post while he goes on about Mossad and RAW. Why let intelligent thought and reason come in the way of an awesome theory???

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## 53fd

Pakistan has always tried to have amicable relations with the US/NATO Forces in Afghanistan. But the US has always undermined this relationship. The US claims that Pakistan's security is of utmost importance in the region, yet, every action taken by them undermines Pakistan's security. Whether that is violating Pakistan's national sovereignty, drone strikes, cross border terrorism from Afghanistan; all their actions in Afghanistan have destabilized Pakistan. The US says it wants to have a good relationship with Pakistan, yet, they make baseless accusations against the ISI of playing double games. The mistrust (trust deficit) that has a developed in the relationship has been a result of this/the US as well. 

The NATO's attacks of aggression that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers was not only a violation of international law, but also went against the agreement & understanding reached by Pakistan & NATO on how to combat terrorism in the region. 

NATO might, through their foolhardy acts of aggression, try to provoke Pakistan into a military confrontation with them; but Pakistan will not act rashly & haplessly like they are doing. These are unacceptable actions, but Pakistan is a responsible nation, & will deal with the matter appropriately, through the right channels. NATO will be made to pay for their actions that resulted in 24 Pakistani soldiers being killed. An outright confrontation between the US/NATO & Pakistan is not good for both the countries, neither is good for the region. Pakistan realizes that, & it will act responsibly, despite every effort NATO is making to lure Pakistan into a military confrontation.

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## somebozo

What ever US speaks should be heard from one year and vented out of another


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## unicorn

Bastards have put their first card on the table.

Timing of this statement is mind blowing. 

Al Qaeda Says it is Holding a U.S. Hostage in Pakistan - WSJ.com


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## pakistanitarzan

PeacefulIndian said:


> It is crystal clear that whoever carried out the attacks knew exactly what they were doing. I have closely followed the US air strike procedures.
> 
> ANY requested air strike has to be authorized by several levels of military command. While the authorizations are being sought the coordinates of the target are conveyed to the ground command center. They view the area thru satellites, weigh if the target is friendly or hostile and check if the target is already known (in this case it was) etc. Once all the authorizations are obtained the air strike request is cleared and target is engaged. This process would be followed even if somebody saw OBL walking on the streets of Kabul and requested an air strike.
> 
> There is simply no room to go wrong. The only part to debate is - why did they do this and what were their objectives. The 'error' thing is too incredible to buy.



Bilkul sahi farmaya apnay janab!


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## 53fd

unicorn said:


> Bastards have put their first card on the table.
> 
> Timing of this statement is mind blowing.
> 
> Al Qaeda Says it is Holding a U.S. Hostage in Pakistan - WSJ.com



These are desperate times for the US, the regional powers such as China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan are getting opposed to US presence in Afghanistan, as well as the Afghans people themselves.


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## lionheartsalahudin

alphamale said:


> i m not underestimating ur army but my point is that a war with U.S will crumble ur already weak economy. the result of the war do not matter, the thing that matters is where will be pakistan economically after such a war with all types of sanctions.


 
a great move by kayani ,i always stressed on decentralised command for less time consumption,good job kayani no supply every paltoon with 4-6 anza's and we are open for business.

any associatian with america will definately destroy our economy ,so better face the nemesis once and for all.

remember when usa threatened us "to send us to stone age" well our beghrat general gave in and now where are we at after so much help to usa today pakistan is in "stone age".no industry.no electricity,no fucnctional public institutionals.



so thanks i would rather have told the americans bring it on and would have prefered to fight against them like veitnam or north koreans,the veitnamese are more respected by usa then us pakistanis,our self respect has been detroyed bcuz of our cowardice behaviour and the population of both veitnam and n.korea is a fraction of paks,so i don't think america will have a walk in the park in pak,ppl of pak will be secretly supplied with chinese made ak-47s from china and thats all we need weapons nothing else does'nt matter if its assaultrifles,and machine guns only more over after 2001 most pakistani's the true patriots even in punjab have stacked up ak47s and ammo just in case america invades us lols like my grand father to arm his whole family and he is 75 ,and there are many liek him in pak,pakistan would be stalingrad 2ndww for americans where germans with superior tech were outnumbered by russians even without weapons

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## mr42O

Mercenary said:


> Why did NATO chooose to attack a remote outpost?
> 
> Why not attack a major military base and get the Pakistan Air Force involved in this?
> 
> These kinds of threads are yet another reason why there needs to be an intellect filter on membership in this forum.
> 
> People with ZERO knowledge like the poster who started this buffonish thread degrade the quality of debate on this forum and with the intellect filter in place, people like him cannot join such forums as they lack the intelligence to give meaningful contributions.



lol zero knowledge ? been to pub with ur m8s before reading and writing. For u dumb *** amercians saying they were attacked by taliban. COuld they used that if they had attacked major post ? Btw there is no major post along border in these area. And if u dont have any good to say or do not understand what i meant dont open ur stinky mouth. Now go back to bead


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## somebozo

This is good move on behalf of Kayani..you cannot instruct or expect troops to stand in the line of fire and die for nothing..Unless off course you are baigharat Mushraff!

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## SEAL

Good decision in short term but our intelligence needs to wake up and make some aggressive contingency plans.

Technologically PA is in pathetic state we have absolutely no high tech system along the border. There is no early warning system we must have spies along the border 2 Km deep inside A'stan who can track every movement of ANA and USA troops, install thermal imagers, and most importantly hack their communication if we don't have expertise take help from China and KGB.


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## Irfan Baloch

Emmie said:


> So no MANPADS in PA inventory can shoot down a gunship? RBS, ANZA?


not sure about RBS 70 but anza cant because 
Anza has less chance firstly the IR jammers of the helicopter will confuse the missile and wont let it lock secondly its armor can withstand the sustained bursts of 23mm cannon fire. I am not sure what the half to one and a half kg HE fragmentation can do which are meant for a soft belly aircrafts, if the proximity charge causes the explosion before impact then the penetration is even more questionable but don&#8217;t take my word for it there is not enough information about this on the web.
There are many Apaches that have been brought down but the weapons responsible have never been clearly defined. 
RBS 70 system has a better chance of actually hitting since its guidance system is more resistant to enemy jammers but then again its proximity fuse should activate the detonation really close to the target so that its explosive and shaped charge has a chance to penetrate the armor. There is over 1 Kg of tungsten and shaped charge so it might do the trick but all MANPADs are only going to be effective if their location is unknown to the gunship and if they can surprise their target, a kill is only ensured if the distance to travel is shorter and their location is unknown meaning they have to be some where around the posts not exactly in the posts to have chance to defend them against the attack.

Such is the relation between Pakistan and its powerful &#8220;ally&#8221; on steroids that similar attacks in the future will definitely happen that&#8217;s how the empires operate, they don&#8217;t have to have a reason or logic, they do that for their audience and their present and potential rivals who are eyeing to reach their stature. This all is foreplay and the message is meant for China and/ or Russia. Look at the world map and then start looking at the American bases from Pacific to the South east and up to Alaska and tell me who is actually circling and blockading and who is the actual threat to the world. With s stranglehold on the media and corporate world a strategic partner and unrivalled military might that mankind has ever seen in history UN and international court of justice become a joke (or irrelevant as Mr Bush Jr termed it while attacking Iraq 2nd time).

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## Safriz

if they had stopped army from responding now...there had been mutiny..
good move....now officers at checkpoints can decide whether to fire back or not.


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## houshanghai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5bQLNBrMy0

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## mikkix

War with US will be a blunder, even China and Russia cant have the strength and guts..

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## rohailmalhi

There are many theories we can get out of this sad event .So this could be one of the reason but as we dont have any proof of it so we cannot be sure .

This cannot happen here is a thing

War in Waziristan will not be just waziristan , Americans will surely be fucked upside down ,coz then Talibans + PA both experts of Guerrilla warfare.U can well imagine what they are going to do these americans.

as far as indian will try to take out our nuke , if till this day americans were not sucessful in doing it they got little chance in dpoing that , and it will be a great stupidity on behalf of indians to to get involve in all this coz if they do they are one going to loose as Paksitan has nothign to loose ,so i dont think they are fool enough to get themselves in to war with Pakistan just coz of Isreal which in this case in not at all going to get disturbed by all this.

So i think it might not be case .............Might i will say.


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## Irfan Baloch

Last Hope said:


> They can shoot down the helicopters within certain range (height factor).



half a KM just like 300 to 400 Meters for RPGs but thats only possible if they take them by surprise. because its the gunship that does the surporise and normally tries to attack with its stand off range advantage

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## Madmen

Next time PA observe any NATO/ANA troop movement inside Pak borders just call in PAF drop a 500lb bomb on their heads and be done with it (Na rahega banse na baje ge bansari.)

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## maverick1977

Irfan Baloch said:


> not sure about RBS 70 but anza cant because
> Anza has less chance firstly the IR jammers of the helicopter will confuse the missile and wont let it lock secondly its armor can withstand the sustained bursts of 23mm cannon fire. I am not sure what the half to one and a half kg HE fragmentation can do which are meant for a soft belly aircrafts, if the proximity charge causes the explosion before impact then the penetration is even more questionable but dont take my word for it there is not enough information about this on the web.
> There are many Apaches that have been brought down but the weapons responsible have never been clearly defined.
> RBS 70 system has a better chance of actually hitting since its guidance system is more resistant to enemy jammers but then again its proximity fuse should activate the detonation really close to the target so that its explosive and shaped charge has a chance to penetrate the armor. There is over 1 Kg of tungsten and shaped charge so it might do the trick but all MANPADs are only going to be effective if their location is unknown to the gunship and if they can surprise their target, a kill is only ensured if the distance to travel is shorter and their location is unknown meaning they have to be some where around the posts not exactly in the posts to have chance to defend them against the attack.
> 
> Such is the relation between Pakistan and its powerful ally on steroids that similar attacks in the future will definitely happen thats how the empires operate, they dont have to have a reason or logic, they do that for their audience and their present and potential rivals who are eyeing to reach their stature. This all is foreplay and the message is meant for China and/ or Russia. Look at the world map and then start looking at the American bases from Pacific to the South east and up to Alaska and tell me who is actually circling and blockading and who is the actual threat to the world. With s stranglehold on the media and corporate world a strategic partner and unrivalled military might that mankind has ever seen in history UN and international court of justice become a joke (or irrelevant as Mr Bush Jr termed it while attacking Iraq 2nd time).



Hmm, that brings me to my questions, what effective MANPADS pakistan has against low flying targets???


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## iPhone

There was a time this nation was split on where Pak should be on this wot. It's our war, its their war, whatever. Initially, it was mainly the religious parties and rightests against Pak's cooperation in wot, for their own agenda. 

But right now, and esp this year, after multitudes of events where Pakistan's sovereignty was tarnished, Pakistanis murdered on streets, our soldiers targeted, our institutions maligned and the list goes on, theres not a single facet of the society left that is not against Pak's wot cooperation. Everyone's convinced Pak should get out of this war before some other major unthinkable event strikes Pakistan. 

You probably never got this much complete agreement in any nation like this ever before.

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## maverick1977

lionheartsalahudin said:


> a great move by kayani ,i always stressed on decentralised command for less time consumption,good job kayani no supply every paltoon with 4-6 anza's and we are open for business.
> 
> any associatian with america will definately destroy our economy ,so better face the nemesis once and for all.
> 
> remember when usa threatened us "to send us to stone age" well our beghrat general gave in and now where are we at after so much help to usa today pakistan is in "stone age".no industry.no electricity,no fucnctional public institutionals.
> 
> 
> 
> so thanks i would rather have told the americans bring it on and would have prefered to fight against them like veitnam or north koreans,the veitnamese are more respected by usa then us pakistanis,our self respect has been detroyed bcuz of our cowardice behaviour and the population of both veitnam and n.korea is a fraction of paks,so i don't think america will have a walk in the park in pak,ppl of pak will be secretly supplied with chinese made ak-47s from china and thats all we need weapons nothing else does'nt matter if its assaultrifles,and machine guns only more over after 2001 most pakistani's the true patriots even in punjab have stacked up ak47s and ammo just in case america invades us lols like my grand father to arm his whole family and he is 75 ,and there are many liek him in pak,pakistan would be stalingrad 2ndww for americans where germans with superior tech were outnumbered by russians even without weapons




Get some diesel for Pakistani locomotives before thinking about going to war. in todays news, most of reminaing pakistani trains did not leave the stations because there was no diesel available for the trains. how do pakistan intend to sustain a war? get out of dream world, face the reality, Zardari and co has sold pakistan and i am afraid end game is near, unless and until some miracle can save Pakistan. Guys wake up and analyze the whole domestic situation in pakistan and understand what is going on?

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## 53fd

The fact of the matter is, the US wants to 'accelerate the events' on the ground in its strategic favor, as it faces severe opposition from the regional powers against its presence in Afghanistan, as well as from the Afghan & American people themselves. Pakistan has to bide its time out, strangle the US strategically & geopolitically, & not be provoked by the provocations from the US. That is exactly what the US & NATO Forces want, that Pakistan gets provoked.


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## Safriz

indianrabbit said:


> Y. Really good move I must say.



If they die fighting thats better than die while asleep at a check post.....Understand the difference?

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## Safriz

unicorn said:


> Bastards have put their first card on the table.
> 
> Timing of this statement is mind blowing.
> 
> Al Qaeda Says it is Holding a U.S. Hostage in Pakistan - WSJ.com


Although i have serious doubts about authenticity of such news,and looks more likely to be a ploy to justify NATO attack... BUT
what the American Citizen was doing in Pakistan? Provided the Government has asked all Foreigners specially Americans to Liaison with Ministry of Internal affairs and keep them updated about their address and why they are there...


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## lem34

I think CIA is a rogue agency that wants a america pakistani war, CIA is a state within a state, Some in american are evangelists and want to attack *******


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## lionheartsalahudin

maverick1977 said:


> Get some diesel for Pakistani locomotives before thinking about going to war. in todays news, most of reminaing pakistani trains did not leave the stations because there was no diesel available for the trains. how do pakistan intend to sustain a war? get out of dream world, face the reality, Zardari and co has sold pakistan and i am afraid end game is near, unless and until some miracle can save Pakistan. Guys wake up and analyze the whole domestic situation in pakistan and understand what is going on?


 
1)if u r trying to imply that worry about our economy then think abt war,then remember no matter how much effort we put into our economy,our western so called freinds will sabotage it as they have access to our country ,deny them every sort of access then we can really work on removing the corruption form inside,thus only in that state of affairs shall we have enough deisel for our locomotives.

2)how do we sustain a war? stop thinking like that and be a man,to further enlighten you my freind,when israel attacked lebanon did the hizboulah need deisel to fire off their katyusha's no they did'nt and how convinent that we have nato's and americans in afghanistan i would say can easily be targeted by guerila katyusha's,we can go on a sustained war even on mules with only weapons using gunpowder ,rpgs ,katyusha's only but it all depends on your willpower and determination to fight on!

or we could be cowards wat musharaf has made us!when war is upon u u don't think will i win or not,u fight with watever resources u have


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## W.11

thread title is damn funny


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## pakistanitarzan

The most funniest and impossible thing that could ever happen at this moment is that India and Pakistan should unite together to 
fight terrorism or foreign aggression. We are like brothers, apas ke problem baad mein settle karlenge 
People don't get mad, I love Pakistan. It's just a thought LOL


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## Abu Zolfiqar

this removes a huge barrier and adds leeway as far as RoEs are concerned; and their ability (without fear of dereliction of duty) to defend themselves effectively, in the event of the next hostile aggressive act by 'friendlys'

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## Abu Zolfiqar

so much for cross-border ''coordination'' !


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## wmdisinfo

ANZA II Vs APACHE lets see how many are downed by this ANZA II


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## jynxed

rohailmalhi said:


> There are many theories we can get out of this sad event .So this could be one of the reason but as we dont have any proof of it so we cannot be sure .
> 
> This cannot happen here is a thing
> 
> War in Waziristan will not be just waziristan , Americans will surely be fucked upside down ,coz then Talibans + PA both experts of Guerrilla warfare.U can well imagine what they are going to do these americans.
> 
> as far as indian will try to take out our nuke , if till this day americans were not sucessful in doing it they got little chance in dpoing that , and it will be a great stupidity on behalf of indians to to get involve in all this coz if they do they are one going to loose as Paksitan has nothign to loose ,so i dont think they are fool enough to get themselves in to war with Pakistan just coz of Isreal which in this case in not at all going to get disturbed by all this.
> 
> So i think it might not be case .............Might i will say.



lol I like your style of thinking but the truth ...again is far more bitter then you think sir 
If US were to go to war with pakistan, one India does not have to par take in it and will not because India is the only country that Pakistan can actually do damage to at that point lol 
US and its allies are far more equipped with new technology that pakistan will not survive a day and who do you think will defend you China? Saudis, or Iranians? no one will come my friend at the end of the day Pakistan is alone (sad but true)

As for Israel, if US were to go to war with pakistan.. I guarantee you that they will be the first to launch against Pakistan because Pakistan is the only Muslim country that can strike back at Israel


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## La ResistanceZ

General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Issues Clear Warning to NATO. Chief of Army Staff General Kayani has officially passed a notification allowing for full-scale retaliation in case of any aggression.

In a statement issued here on Thursday, Army chief has given permission to engage with the enemy even if it requires firing into Afghanistan.
Local units have been tasked to gather up large amounts of weapons and ammunition.
Sources said Kayani suspended the command and chain system in order to enable the senior officers on the posts to take appropriate action if Pakistani forces come under attack.
The decision would however be applicable to eventualities involving NATO troops.
Any attack on Pakistan will be retaliated with full force and senior officer of the post will be authorized to decide any action if attacked, no need for prior approval any more.


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## unicorn

wmdisinfo said:


> ANZA II Vs APACHE lets see how many are downed by this ANZA II



When will wisdom prevail within us?

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## VelocuR

Kiyani, all I can say is *please proof me* if you can defend Pakistan or silence. I think, his hot tempers will cool down and will forgot everything next day to normal routine. 

I will keep eyes on drones attacks within next few weeks.


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## Vassnti

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> this removes a huge barrier and adds leeway as far as RoEs are concerned; and their ability (without fear of dereliction of duty) to defend themselves effectively, in the event of the next hostile aggressive act by 'friendlys'



Could you expand please? The current ROEs seemed to have allowed the posts to use small arms, anti aircraft ability and artillery i dont understand what huge barrier they face.


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## pakistanitarzan

jynxed said:


> US and its allies are far more equipped with new technology that pakistan will not survive a day



Very interesting point fella! So how did the Afghans survive for a decade?

Here is another interesting point. When Pakistan fights, it does not mean that only army is fighting. The whole nation fights. Including kids from ages of 15 to adults and elders. It may sound even more absurd but Pakistani's have something no other nation has and that is no fear for death at time of the war! No offense but you wouldn't be able to digest this because you need to be in the same boat which you aren't

God Bless non war mongers Americans
Pakistan Zindabaad!


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## FireFighter

wmdisinfo said:


> ANZA II Vs APACHE lets see how many are downed by this ANZA II



Anza 2 can shoot down apaches if they're within the 5000m range, but Apache can fire rockets from a 10,000m distance without being detected. therefore anza's 2 are not a sufficient countermeasure.

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## jynxed

did Afghan survive? 
If US leaves Afghan and Iraq both are set back to stone ages 
surviving is not living in caves and bullet peppered houses 

lol ok so you are saying 15 year old kids and your elderly are going to fight against satellite guide missiles ? against stealth technology? and most of all not one nation at war with you but over 6 ? 
I don't argue the courage that my people have I know i mean ya put their army infront of ours with same weapons ya pak army will tare them apart 

no man pakistan can not afford or win this war not when for every its every single breath it has to rely on aid from other nations


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## hunter_hunted

NATO has sown the seeds of destruction now lets c where this leads. But whatever great move from Pakistan.

But im sure about one thing USA and NATO are doing their best to provoke Pakistan for full scale war.

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## hunter_hunted

Man r u drunk which rum u were drinking no where in article is written about RAW.


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## RazPaK

> who told you that? even the unit that is being moved wont discuss this in the army gathering or with other units except the unit officers and senior JCOs and NCOs. the movement will be done at odd hours and will be very discrete without any word of destination and reason to move.
> Either you are one of the unit officers (in which case you are violating the secrecy act) or you are speculating.
> 
> If its true then do tell what kind of missile systems that need to be moved next to the border? If they are the man pads then they are as useless as the 12.7mm or MG 1A3 those poor soldiers had because the NATO gunships are pretty much immune to the fire from these things. Anything bigger doesnt need to be moved and can take out the intruders from many a miles.




To I-Balouch: I was referring to the Chinese build up of it's forces close to their south-western border, not Pakistan. And yes I have heard certain missiles have been located to the border as well from inside sources. Anyways I'm not saying China is going jump in a conflict, but it's only logical for them to set up defense where they feel threatened.


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## longbrained

wmdisinfo said:


> ANZA II Vs APACHE lets see how many are downed by this ANZA II



Actually Anza has too short a range and Apache are equipped with flares and ALQ-144 modulated IRCM jammer. which jams missiles like Anza or side winder. As I had said earlier we need good strategic SAM's as well as good point defenses offered by FD-2000 and LD-2000. 


ALQ-144 IR jammer on a Apache helicopter:

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## Safriz

FireFighter said:


> Anza 2 can shoot down apaches if they're within the 5000m range, but Apache can fire rockets from a 10,000m distance without being detected. therefore anza's 2 are not a sufficient countermeasure.



So basically without intervention of PAF...PA is sitting duck for NATO.

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## Alpha Omega

Little too late, its not going to bring our brave dead soldier back to life. I still fail to understand why PAF was not called in when we were attacked. The raid lasted for more than an hour, what was PAF doing? What's the use of having AWACS and Gods gift to Pakistan, the block 52 F-16CD when we can't even protect our own men at war?

Mr Kiyani, you owe us an explanation, specially to the families of those who died in vain.


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## Safriz

but then don't forget that Apache needs Fuel to fly...and that goes through Pakistan


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## La ResistanceZ

ISLAMABAD - Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Kayani has directed the ranks and cadres of military to give befitting response to any foreign aggression and take a decision in this regard on the spot as the &#8220;command of chain system&#8221; has been suspended owing to serious circumstances in the wake of recent NATO strikes on Pakistani border posts in Mohmand Agency, which killed 24 soldiers.
The attack by NATO on Saturday, which is dubbed as &#8220;intentional and deliberate&#8221; by the civilian and military leadership, has led to great anguish and anger among the ranks of the armed forces and it has been decided not to tolerate such assault in future and give it befitting response.
General Kayani held a crucial meeting with his military commanders a day after the NATO strike at the General Headquarters (GHQ) but its details were not shared with the media. After the meeting, the army chief sent a letter to the armed forces in which important decisions taken at GHQ were conveyed to them.
I*n accordance with the decisions, there would be no need to follow the army&#8217;s command and chain system and any official or soldier, at any particular place, would be allowed to take a decision on his own without waiting for the orders from the top so that any aggression from outside would be matched.
&#8220;The decision has been made owing to the breaking down of the communication system as result of the NATO strike on the Pakistani border post in Mohmand Agency,&#8221; an official said.
The NATO strike, which was unexpected, led to a great loss of life as the army was not anticipating any such aggression from its allies and the Pakistani soldiers were taken aback. &#8220;The army chief in the meeting declared that no foreign aggression would be allowed in future and all possible measures are being taken to defend the country,&#8221; the official said.
Apart from doing away with the command and chain system, some other important steps are also being taken such as reinforcement of troops on the Pakistani side of the border and also to increase the surveillance flights of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on the country&#8217;s border with Afghanistan.
*
Strike without permission, Kayani tells troops | Pakistan Today | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia


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## Vassnti

Irfan Baloch said:


> not sure about RBS 70
> 
> RBS 70 system has a better chance of actually hitting since its guidance system is more resistant to enemy jammers but then again its proximity fuse should activate the detonation really close to the target so that its explosive and shaped charge has a chance to penetrate the armor. There is over 1 Kg of tungsten and shaped charge so it might do the trick but all MANPADs are only going to be effective if their location is unknown to the gunship and if they can surprise their target, a kill is only ensured if the distance to travel is shorter and their location is unknown meaning they have to be some where around the posts not exactly in the posts to have chance to defend them against the attack.





> RBS 70 Mk 2
> The Mk 2 missile has a 100% increase in area coverage compared to the Mk 1. The Mk 2 version incorporates a smaller digital electronic control unit, a larger sustainer motor and a heavier warhead, providing an increased speed of 590m/s and range of 7km, with improved armour penetration characteristics.
> 
> The warhead is 50% heavier and incorporates fragmentation pellets and a shaped hollow charge for armour penetration against armoured helicopter targets.



Still not quite the legs to take on an Apache and you have to be able to see the target.


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## Mercenary

mr42O said:


> lol zero knowledge ? been to pub with ur m8s before reading and writing. For u dumb *** amercians saying they were attacked by taliban. COuld they used that if they had attacked major post ? Btw there is no major post along border in these area. And if u dont have any good to say or do not understand what i meant dont open ur stinky mouth. Now go back to bead



Thanks for confirming what I stated about you in my previous post. 

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 PM ----------




pakistanitarzan said:


> Very interesting point fella! So how did the Afghans survive for a decade?
> 
> Here is another interesting point. When Pakistan fights, it does not mean that only army is fighting. The whole nation fights. Including kids from ages of 15 to adults and elders. It may sound even more absurd but Pakistani's have something no other nation has and that is no fear for death at time of the war! No offense but you wouldn't be able to digest this because you need to be in the same boat which you aren't
> 
> God Bless non war mongers Americans
> Pakistan Zindabaad!



lol, you have two american flags in your avatar and you live USA..........

explain to me why are you living in this war monger nation?


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## VelocuR

longbrained said:


> Actually Anza has too short a range and Apache are equipped with flares and ALQ-144 modulated IRCM jammer. which jams missiles like Anza or side winder. As I had said earlier we need good strategic SAM's as well as good point defenses offered by FD-2000 and LD-2000.
> 
> 
> ALQ-144 IR jammer on a Apache helicopter:



SAM (ie. FD/FT-2000) is not designed for helicopters and LD-2000 is not effectives. 

Only we need the response of PAF to destroy Apache. PAF must response immediately.

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## genmirajborgza786

safriz said:


> If they die fighting thats better than die while asleep at a check post.....Understand the difference?



_aisa kyun sochte ho....._ why ? just a few border incidences & a call for do or die. foolish policy,think positive Pakistan is here to stay . & not to get trapped in this nett that NATO has deliberately set ! & in fact by doing the so-called come what may theory, you are exactly giving the U.S what it wants. Look at china do you know how many times it has been provoked in the 60's,70's up to the early 90's by different power's did it lost its cool ? no it did not, & thats why china is where it stands today. Remember when a bully teases you to fight you can win the conflict with out raising a voice , its called ignoring the attention seeker theory . Do that & the bully will end up standing alone want example read: IRAN, brilliant diplomacy @ work 
(Russia,china,Venezuela) can the U.S or Israel attack it ? yes, but will they attack it ? No even though frankly speaking Iran is no match to them but still Iran has played its card's too shrewdly in the international Geo-polity & comity if not anything then Pakistan can learn diplomacy from this example. Diplomacy is one of the strongest weapon's a nation can poses, its the shield which protects a country from arm twisting, it over comes obstacles in the international scene it can win partners of interests. It can beat foes

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## RazPaK

Pakistan does more than it's fair share against the fight against terrorism. Pakistan is being scapegoated, by the US for their defeat in Afghanistan. Also they see our nation as a target to weaken the Islamic world/Asia i.e Non-Nato countries.







Description of video:


> March 8th, 2011: Pakistan army has done more than NATO forces to stop cross border infiltration of unwanted elements besides securing the long and porous Pak-Afghan's border in South Waziristan Agency, a senior military officer said. Brigadier Abubakr Amin Bajwa, Sector Commander Angor Ada South Waziristan Agency briefed journalists at Naiz Naray's snow-covered post, located 9500 feet above sea level, that Pakistan army has established 20 security posts at Angor Ada sector while NATO has set up only six of its opposite in Afghanistan that showed our strong resolve and commitment to wipe out menace of militancy and terrorism. "Our troops are also making regular patrolling in the far flung terrains of Angor Ada sector with no report of unlawful movement," he added. The ISPR has arranged two days trip for journalists to appraise them about latest security situation, army development works and peace initiatives in South Waziristan. "The tribal people want peace and are extending full support to our army," he remarked. The strength and resources of terrorists and militants have significantly been reduced owing to successful military operation in South Waziristan, he maintained. The back of militants and terrorists has been broken and writ of government has been restored in South Waziristan Agency. Major operations in South Waziristan have been completed and now force can only act in self defence besides concentrating on development works. He said no force of world can match our troops' sacrifices in war against terror and held it sacrifice in high esteem. Brig Abu Bakr said tribal people have been engaged at grassroots level through jirga system, political administration and its outcome is very productive. "The tribal people in case of seeing presence of unwanted elements in their areas quickly informed security force and we take prompt action on credible information," he remarked. He said peace is vital for development and army is committed to counter militancy and terrorism, providing security to tribal people and establish writ of government. The overall security in South Waziristan has greatly improved and under control, he remarked. To bring tribal people into national mainstream, he said special focus is being given on provision of quality education to children and established and upgraded scores of schools at Naiza Naray, Wana, Angor Ada and other major areas of South Waziristan with free of cost education, services of army's quality teachers and modern facilities. "Two years ago, only two schools existed in Agora Ada sector with 180 students that now has jumped to record 12 schools with over 1000 students," he added. The talented students of South Waziristan are being admitted to APS Bannu and Kohat on basis of merit, he informed. In addition to revival of approved water supply scheme in Angor Adda, Brig Abu Bakr said NESPAK and Frontier Works Organization (FWO) have completed survey for construction of Wana-Angora Adda that would be linked with Afghanistan and would make this area into hub of economic activities. The survey for construction of state-of-art hospital at Angor Ada has also been completed and work on these mega schemes would soon start. In addition to free medical camps from time to time in South Waziristan, he said, 1,80,000 plants with major of fruits sampling have been planted in Angora Ada sector. He said army also support tribal people in enhancing their business, celebrating their local festival and sports. Latest techniques regarding counter insurgency operations were also exhibited by army troops. Later, journalists were taken to Wana where bazaars were opened and people were found busy in routine business activities with complete peace and harmony situation. Col Yasin told journalists that under vision of COAS Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani, Cadet College Wana has been approved and 800 kanal land has been acquired for it. He said classes in Wana Cadet College will start from April 1, 2011 at government girl degree college Wana. He said 97 percent work on Gomal Zam dam has been completed with capacity 1400 cubic meter water storage besides 17.4mega watt electricity generation. Survey for Kandi Wam dam and Dana Irrigation Scheme has been completed and work would soon start on it. Upgradation of Wana Grid station has also been approved. Work on Tank-Jandola-Sararogha and Makeen Road, Tank-Kot Martaza and Gomal Zam Dam Road, Gomal Zam-Tanai and Wana-Road, Jandola-Tank and Neli Kach besides Gomal Dam-Tank and Wana underway that after completion would change destiny of people. Assistant Political Agent Wana, Muhammad Shoaib Khan told tribal jirga said that work on restoration of civic facilities are in full swing in South Waziristan. Ahmedzaib and Sulemankhel tribes are also extending full support to government. Malik Muhammad Ajmal and Malik Sultan Wazir also demanded division of South Waziristan Agency comprising areas of Ahmed Zai Wazir tribes to address peoples problems quickly.




BBC is trying to negate our efforts in this fight as a propaganda machine, resulting in NAto forces to find an excuse to backstab it's only vital ally in this wild goose chase.


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## F.O.X

This should have been done way before , but nevertheless a good move , now just give some Anza's to forward posts & i will see how NATO strikes again.


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## VelocuR

*Kayani&#8217;s bold move: &#8216;Pakistani troops will return fire if Nato attacks again*







" The focus of forces at the Afghan border was to take action against militants &#8230; but now they will also be keeping an eye on future Nato strikes," Brig (retd) Mehmood Shah. 


ISLAMABAD: In a development that pushes US-Pakistan relations further into the realm of uncertainty, the army has authorised its local commanders deployed near the Afghan border to retaliate to any future incursions by Nato forces.

*The decision to review the chain of command of security forces stationed at the western border was taken by the army chief, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, after consultations with his top commanders in the wake of Nato strikes at the weekend, said a military official.*

The change means that from here on in the US-led Nato forces in Afghanistan *will also be treated as a potential threat*, commented former Federal Administered Tribal Areas secretary Brig (retd) Mehmood Shah.

&#8220;Until now the focus of security forces at the Afghan border was to take action against militants and stop cross border infiltration but now they will also be keeping an eye on future Nato strikes,&#8221; Brig Shah added.

Defence analyst Lt General (Retd) Abdul Qayum was of the view that *local commanders will now not have to seek approval from their chain of command to return fire at the Nato fighter planes if they carry out &#8220;hostile manoeuvres on our soil.&#8221;*

The fresh directives have been conveyed by General Kayani in a letter circulated among the concerned military quarters.

Another military official disclosed that *a proposal is under consideration to re-equip the troops along the border with Afghanistan to stop any future violation of Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty.*

*If Nato forces refuse to give firm guarantees to stop incursions, the security forces may be deployed on the eastern border (Indian border) where they will have necessary airpower to thwart any misadventure*, the official added.

However, the latest move is *being seen by many as an attempt by the military brass to pacify the growing anger among the lower-cadre of the army over the Nato strikes and also use it as pressure tactic.*

Meanwhile, Pakistan has not completely shut the door to the international conference on the Afghanistan endgame next week in Germany, though Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani on Thursday reiterated that the decision to boycott the Bonn moot was irreversible.

Parliamentary committee weighs up response

*Consultations on whether to send an ambassador-level delegation to Bonn are still ongoing and the final decision is expected today when the bipartisan and bicameral parliamentary committee on national security meets to discuss the fallout of the airstrikes.* 

The 17-member committee, headed by Senator Raza Rabbani, has been tasked with the responsibility of offering its recommendations concerning the government&#8217;s response to the Nato attack.

*The key agenda item before the committee is to ponder the government&#8217;s decision of staying away from the Bonn conference in protest, said a government official. He said that though the decision not to send Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar was final, the chance that Pakistan might send a delegation at ambassador level was very much alive.*

Diplomatic authorities are reviewing the earlier decision of boycotting the conference altogether after the US, host Germany and Afghanistan urged Pakistan to soften its stance. The foreign ministry is believed to have backed the idea of sending a delegation headed by the ambassador at the international gathering, to be attended by 90 countries as well as representatives of the United Nations, to draw up a roadmap for Afghanistan.

Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani will brief the parliamentary panel about the decision taken by the defence committee of the cabinet in response to the Nato attack.

(Read: Nato attack &#8211; the boycott and beyond)

Published in The Express Tribune, December 2nd, 2011.


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## F.O.X

well people have no idea how War is fought , most of them are illiterate and have been fed poison by their parents & political parties . its time we start think ourselves without relying on others.


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## maverick1977

lionheartsalahudin said:


> 1)if u r trying to imply that worry about our economy then think abt war,then remember no matter how much effort we put into our economy,our western so called freinds will sabotage it as they have access to our country ,deny them every sort of access then we can really work on removing the corruption form inside,thus only in that state of affairs shall we have enough deisel for our locomotives.
> 
> 2)how do we sustain a war? stop thinking like that and be a man,to further enlighten you my freind,when israel attacked lebanon did the hizboulah need deisel to fire off their katyusha's no they did'nt and how convinent that we have nato's and americans in afghanistan i would say can easily be targeted by guerila katyusha's,we can go on a sustained war even on mules with only weapons using gunpowder ,rpgs ,katyusha's only but it all depends on your willpower and determination to fight on!
> 
> or we could be cowards wat musharaf has made us!when war is upon u u don't think will i win or not,u fight with watever resources u have


 
Salahudin, for gurella warfare, u need someone to support you. where ar u getting that support from?? india, afghanistan??? that leaves pakistan with china and iran. from china can gurelllas scale hindukush mountains and get the weapons from there, very difficult task, and from iran it is impossible, because iran pakistan terrain is open dessert, targets can be easily picked, no place to hide..... 

Now getting back to retaliation, i am not sure when Army says, that there was a breakdown of communications, i am of the opinion that Pakistani airspace and borders are constantly monitored by AWACS patrolling the skies, where were the AWACS systems, for fun rides in airshows??? there is war going on and PA, PAF were so relaxed as to send their assessts for show off purposes ??? get real, it should act like an army and airforce, not some acrobatic team.

One more thing PAF can do to compliment its helicopter fleet, that is to arm K8 and super mashaks with rockets and side winders IR missiles to combat helicopters in mountaineous areas... something to ponder over....

PA need oil to fight a war? how much reserves PA has to fight a war?? what is the long term strategy, is Pakistan forgetting that any attack on NATO will be full scale war? is there a secret treaty between china and pakistan that chinese will help pakistan militarilty in a situation like that?

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## La ResistanceZ

Its a step in the right direction.


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## Respect4Respect01

Good Job, but it would be better if it was done long time ago, but its never too late.


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## La ResistanceZ

Wow i see the propaganda has already started.

*Pak warned of consequences if there was another terror attack on India: James Jones*

The US has warned Pakistani leaders of dangerous consequences if there is another terror attack on India that originates from Pakistan, a former top adviser to President Barack Obama said, asking Islamabad to give up the policy of supporting extremist elements.
Gen (retd) James Jones, who was the national security adviser to President Barack Obama from January 2009 to October 2010, said the message that they should give up the policy of supporting terrorist and extremist elements has been conveyed to Pakistani leaders several times by top US officials. Jones stated this on the Charlie Rose show on the PBS news network in response to a question.
"I've said this in exactly those words, and I think my former colleagues at the NSC (National Security Council) and at the State Department have done the same thing -- is that you really don't understand, or we don't understand why you don't understand that you're playing Russian roulette here with your future because if there is another attack originating from Pakistan in India, you know, Prime Minister Singh isn't going to be able to hold back," he said.

Pak warned of consequences if there was another terror attack on India: James Jones | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Omar1984




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## RazPaK

> is that you really don't understand, or we don't understand why you don't understand that you're playing Russian roulette here with your future because if there is another attack originating from Pakistan in India, you know, Prime Minister Singh isn't going to be able to hold back," he said.



Americans talking **** on the behalf of India? Oh how the mighty have fallen.

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## VelocuR

*
Boycott of Bonn is final&#8217;
*
Gilani reiterated Pakistan&#8217;s stance on boycotting the Bonn conference in protest against the Nato/Isaf attack, saying the decision was &#8220;final&#8221; and was taken collectively.

*&#8220;How can we attend the conference when our sovereignty came under attack?&#8221; Gilani asked. The soil of Afghanistan was used against the sovereignty and integrity of Pakistan, he said about the cross border strike in Mohmand that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers on Saturday.*

PM Gilani said the decision of boycotting the talks on Afghanistan was taken after thoughtful consideration and after a meeting of the Federal Cabinet, which also endorsed the Defence Committee of the Cabinet&#8217;s decision to halt Nato supplies as well as its demand for the US to vacate Shamsi Airbase.

&#8220;If we sit at the Bonn Conference and another attack takes place, who will be responsible for that?&#8221; he said

The premier further said that, in his opinion, the decision to not attend the conference was in line with &#8220;national honour, self-respect and dignity&#8221;.

*He also denied reports that the government was considering sending Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar to Bonn.*

*&#8216;New rules of engagement with the US&#8217;
*
Gilani said that Pakistan can work with the US, Nato and Isaf under a new agreement and by devising new rules of engagement. He said that it was up to the Parliamentary Committee on National Security to give recommendations for a decision on ties with the US and Nato, adding that the committee will hold a meeting in this regard on Friday, which will be attended by him.

The recommendations of the parliamentary committee will then be put before a joint session of the parliament. Gilani also stated that the military government of Pervez Musharraf had first decided the rules of engagement with the US and Nato.

âNo threat of judicial or military coupâ &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Chinese-Dragon

RazPaK said:


> Americans talking **** on the behalf of India? Oh how the mighty have fallen.



Yep, according to this ex-Obama aide, next time Manmohan Singh won't be able to "hold back". 

Now where have we heard that before?

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## RazPaK

"*Why can't our planes retaliate?" *Khan's father asks. Ya Allah humaray ghunnah maaf karo, aur humay bhi insaaf do. I hope Zardari burns in hell.

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## F.O.X

Let the Dogs Bark , Be it Karazi or any other reporter senator who does not know what the hell is going on , all it will need is a Brick & they will Run with their tails between their legs.

Karzai knows that after US leaves he will be at the mercy of ISI , so sometimes he gives his statement in favor of Pakistan to shelter himself from the Wrath of ISI & sometimes he goes against Pakistan to please US so that they will let him rule.


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## Edevelop

We need to have alliance with Iran. They have enough oil and im sure they would be more than happy to lend us some againt NATO


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## RazPaK

Salam meray Pakistani bhai/bhano, biradiri.

Humaray fauji ki liye zaroor du'waah karna, jo apni jaan is mulak ki liyeh kurbaan kar gey hain.


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## RazPaK

Salam meray Pakistani bhai/bhano, biradiri.

Humaray fauji ki liye zaroor du'waah karna, jo apni jaan is mulak ki liyeh kurbaan kar gey hain.

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## Rig Vedic

Something concrete that has come out - 

Pakistan Cleared Fatal Hit, U.S. Says - WSJ.com

(if you don't have WSJ access, search for the title on Google news) 


> *
> According to the initial U.S. account from the field, the commandos requested airstrikes against the encampment, prompting the team to contact a joint border-control center to determine whether Pakistani forces were in the area, a U.S. official said.
> 
> The border-control center is manned by U.S., Afghan and Pakistani representatives who are supposed to share information and head off conflicts. But the U.S. and Afghan forces conducting the Nov. 26 commando operation hadn't notified the center in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, the official said.
> 
> When called, the Pakistani representatives at the center said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the Americans to conduct the airstrikes, the U.S. officials said.*



So, here is the sequence of events, as per the reports - 

1. NATO forces came under fire. 
2. The border control center asked the Pakistanis if any of their forces were in the area. 
3. The Pakistanis, unaware that an air-strike was imminent, issued a denial. 
4. Then all hell broke loose.

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## RazPaK

> So, here is the sequence of events, as per the reports -
> 
> 1. NATO forces came under fire.
> 2. The border control center asked the Pakistanis if any of their forces were in the area.
> 3. The Pakistanis, unaware that an air-strike was imminent, issued a denial.
> 4. Then all hell broke loose.



So you're saying the Pakistani posts were covert and Nato had no idea where are posts were located?

Due to our share of intel and hosting of Nato forces at this post, *I DO NOT BELIEVE IT*.


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## F.O.X

Rig Vedic said:


> Something concrete that has come out -
> 
> Pakistan Cleared Fatal Hit, U.S. Says - WSJ.com
> 
> (if you don't have WSJ access, search for the title on Google news)
> 
> 
> So, here is the sequence of events, as per the reports -
> 
> 1. NATO forces came under fire.
> 2. The border control center asked the Pakistanis if any of their forces were in the area.
> 3. The Pakistanis, unaware that an air-strike was imminent, issued a denial.
> 4. Then all hell broke loose.



This is the NATO side of story , which they are crafting to save their own As* , did someone asked the nato commander that why the hell did he continued the strike after it was confirmed that it was Pakistani post with Pakistani soldiers in it.

If it was just an accident Pak Army wouldn't be this furious , 

NATO/US messed up big time , and now they will pay , also they will learn the lesson to not trust Afg information.


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## SMC

Rig Vedic said:


> Something concrete that has come out -
> 
> Pakistan Cleared Fatal Hit, U.S. Says - WSJ.com
> 
> (if you don't have WSJ access, search for the title on Google news)
> 
> 
> So, here is the sequence of events, as per the reports -
> 
> 1. NATO forces came under fire.
> 2. The border control center asked the Pakistanis if any of their forces were in the area.
> 3. The Pakistanis, unaware that an air-strike was imminent, issued a denial.
> 4. Then all hell broke loose.



And Iraq also had WMDs.


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## deckingraj

F.O.X said:


> This is the NATO side of story , which they are crafting to save their own As* , did someone asked the nato commander that why the hell did he continued the strike after it was confirmed that it was Pakistani post with Pakistani soldiers in it.
> 
> If it was just an accident Pak Army wouldn't be this furious ,
> 
> NATO/US messed up big time , and now they will pay , also they will learn the lesson to not trust Afg information.



You are right but i am still not able to come up with terms of a possible objective of USA by a blatant attack on PA if not a mistake...can you help???

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## soul hacker

Rawalpindi  Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani on Thursday suspended command and chain system to counter any aggression on borders said The Nation a Pakistani paper. The Nation further added that General Kayani suspended the command and chain system in order to enable the senior officers on the posts to take appropriate action if Pakistani forces come under attack.

The Chief of the Army Staff issued these orders on Wednesday night. According to which, the Pakistani military officer in the area will be responsible for retaliation against any aggressors in that particular area and he will be provided all kind of assistance that he will ask for.
The sources further said the decision would, however, be applicable to eventualities involving NATO troops. The sources added that General Kayani also ordered the troops to counter any aggression with full force and defend the motherland against any assailant and for that they do not need to wait for any orders from the high command.
He also said that the Pakistan Air Force should have taken action when NATO helicopters violated the Pakistani airspace and attacked the Pakistani checkposts in Mohmand Agency last Saturday, the sources maintained. He further said the Air Force could not be called in as the communication system at the checkpost was destroyed in the Nato attack, the sources said.
Kayani ordered officers to utilise all resources at their disposal to give a befitting reply to the aggressors and they should not be spared.
The Army Chief also praised the jawans of the Azad Kashmir Regiment deployed at the border checkposts.
This was the first time after occupation of Afghanistan by allied forces that a Pakistani army chief, fed up of continuous border aggression, has issued such orders.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Thread starter

so what u suggest getting slapped by u.s and nato , jag hansai and still looking the other way?



pdf_shurtah said:


> I think it as this way. The gnat (Taliban) stings Wolf (NATO). The wolf takes its revenge on the Sheep (Pakistan)



actually knowing the u.s and nato they have more respect for taliban then this army ( 6th biggest army , nukes bla bla ) with its corrupt general

TARIQ


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## desiman

War on Nato aggressors, we will talk when some real action is actually taken, seems more like Kayani is trying to rope in as much as support as possible before this matter cools down.

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## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> As you are neither of the two sides, perhaps it is wiser to now let the 'two' sides sort it out?



I will take that under advisement..

But heads up... I dont think I will take the advise


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## VelocuR

Defence analyst Lt General (Retd) Abdul Qayum was of the view that *local commanders will now not have to seek approval from their chain of command to return fire at the Nato fighter planes if they carry out &#8220;hostile manoeuvres on our soil.&#8221;*


so will PAF protect Pakistan on West borders ?? Local commanders can ask PAF retailiate?? 

Kiyani speak BS lies again to satisfy audiences??

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## karan.1970

r3alist said:


> You know what you are doing.
> 
> The 2.5km point was not an isolated issue, you removed all other points, but you keep on mentioning that point.
> 
> 
> Also NATO are bound to come up with their own version, unlikely to admit to murder, so what's the big fuss about their report, only useful unless you believe NATO will not lie, logically speaking they WILL lie.



And on the other hand, whats the big fuss about the ISPR report then.. Thats also useful only if you believe PA is not lying to cover up their part of the fault in this terrible incident..


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## Pakistanisage

I think the title of the thread is misleading and false. Pakistan has not declared a war on Nato. What General Kayani is recognizing is the fact that Pakistanis have a right of self Defense. That does not mean he has declared war on Nato. Every Nation retains the right to defend itself against foreign aggression. Pakistan should not attack Nato, but Pakistan should defend its borders vigorously and give a robust and overwhelming response if attacked.

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## karan.1970

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yep, according to this ex-Obama aide, next time Manmohan Singh won't be able to "hold back".
> 
> Now where have we heard that before?



Probably the same place where you heard "Attack on Pak will be considered an attack on China" 

---------- Post added at 09:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 AM ----------




Rig Vedic said:


> Something concrete that has come out -
> 
> Pakistan Cleared Fatal Hit, U.S. Says - WSJ.com
> 
> (if you don't have WSJ access, search for the title on Google news)
> 
> 
> So, here is the sequence of events, as per the reports -
> 
> 1. NATO forces came under fire.
> 2. The border control center asked the Pakistanis if any of their forces were in the area.
> 3. The Pakistanis, unaware that an air-strike was imminent, issued a denial.
> 4. Then all hell broke loose.



Some how, "I Told you so" sometimes is just not enough

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## Gin ka Pakistan

air marshal said:


>



What democary is President talking about ? and yes why is President not leading the nation or addressing it. 

Is weaking Pakistani economy part of *operation blue tulsi *and curruption is it tool


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## MastanKhan

Vcheng,

Where did you disappear man------.

The reasonthey retunred was because pak millitary did not show real concern---if there was real concern shown---it would have resulted in pak air force making a couple of rounds of the area---but guess what---most of pak air force is blind at night--now isn't that true---.

you wish you had paid for those rafales in 2003 and taken delivery by 2007---or the grippens and taken delivery by the same time---at least you had the whole of 60 planes ready and equipped to do the right job at the right time---.

Now you only have the blk52 F16 and a wannabe JF 17 that is still going through trials and integration---you know--in my middle age---I can't even tear my hair off---because I have lost most of them---I can even cry for I have become senseless towards the incompetence of my millitary forces.

Pak millitary is always a dollar short and a day late in preparing to meet the inevitable.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Is Afghanistan an enemy state ? Why to give civil transit to it? 
Afghan were so happy on the death of Pakistani soldiers , why should Pakistan feed them, as they grow nothing except drugs.

US will try to bully its way out but for a long war even they don't have any money.

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## IceCold

deckingraj said:


> You are right but i am still not able to come up with terms of a possible objective of USA by a blatant attack on PA if not a mistake...can you help???



How can you call it a mistake? We are not living in stone age raj and specially more so when we talk about the US of A which has all the modern gadgetry at its disposal. Things like these don't happen due to mistake. This was no mistake, this was a well planned message delivered "either you are with us or against us" 
You can continue to look the other way and look for explanations and reasons where none exists but there is no doubt in our mind the motives behind the attack. US wanted Pakistan to attack Haqqani, Pakistanis are dumb but not that dumb, not to understand the consequences of such an act to Pakistans stability and future. Hence this.
Now that the reputation of the army is in question which hasn't happened for a very long time in Pakistan, no matter how much corrupt the generals really are, they are not going to lose face in the public and hence the legitimacy of Pakistans higher defense spending compared to health and education, i was reading the todays newspaper. Kyani has given orders to the PA to use all resources to hit back to any such attack. Now i am not actually buying this, but then again as mentioned above, the generals won't lose face both in public and in the lower ranks of the army.


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## TaimiKhan

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Is Afghanistan an enemy state ? Why to give civil transit to it?
> Afghan were so happy on the death of Pakistani soldiers , why should Pakistan feed them, as they grow nothing except drugs.
> 
> US will try to bully its way out but for a long war even they don't have any money.



They are one thankless nation / country on this earth.

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## Zarvan

Finally Thanks GOD Kiyani showed guts and allowed troops to hit back yes now if any attack Nato can expect horrible response from us this is should be enough of warning for Nato


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## President Camacho

This is what the WSJ article says:



> *Pakistani officials at a border coordination center gave the go-ahead *to American airstrikes that inadvertently killed 24 Pakistan troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, according to U.S. officials briefed on the preliminary investigation.
> 
> 
> According to the initial U.S. account from the field, the commandos requested airstrikes against the encampment, prompting the team to contact a joint border-control center to determine whether Pakistani forces were in the area, a U.S. official said.
> 
> the U.S. and Afghan forces conducting the Nov. 26 commando operation hadn't notified the center in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, the official said.
> 
> *When called, the Pakistani representatives at the center said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the Americans to conduct the airstrikes, the U.S. officials said.*
> 
> Officials in Islamabad couldn't be reached to comment on the U.S. allegations.
> 
> "*If you hear American helicopters why would you lob mortars and machine gun fire at them? The Pakistanis can say we thought it was insurgents, except for the fact that the Taliban doesn't have helicopters*," said the U.S. official.



Apparently, when fired at the copter, the NATO forces went back and communicated with the Pakistani command to ascertain the presence of the troops. Per their claims, after receiving a response in the negative, they took the posts to be those of the Taliban, and went ahead with the attack with full force.

And here's the flame:



> ...other officials argued that it was premature for Mr. Obama to intervene so publicly given continued uncertainty about what exactly transpired.
> 
> Republican candidates for the White House often accuse Mr. Obama of being too quick to apologize for U.S. actions.
> 
> "There was, obviously, no apology, and there was an expression of condolences," said White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, noting that the investigation into the incident was "at the early stages."



The only line that may come out now will be... "What we've got here... is failure to communicate".


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## Donatello

RaptorRX707 said:


> Defence analyst Lt General (Retd) Abdul Qayum was of the view that *local commanders will now not have to seek approval from their chain of command to return fire at the Nato fighter planes if they carry out hostile manoeuvres on our soil.*
> 
> 
> so will PAF protect Pakistan on West borders ?? Local commanders can ask PAF retailiate??
> 
> 
> 
> Kiyani speak BS lies again to satisfy audiences??




There is no need to 'ask' PAF to retaliate.....they are the ones with the eyes on the horizon...they should respond automatically and ask the intruding forces to move back, land or be shot down.

Simple.....and thats the Standard Operating Procedure.....for most of the nations.

Remember the Hainan island incident...

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## niazifighter

Pakistan Was Consulted Before Fatal Hit, U.S. Says
Deadly Border Strike Came After Forces Were Told Area Was Clear of Pakistani Troops, Officials Sa
By JULIAN E. BARNES and ADAM ENTOUS

WASHINGTONPakistani officials at a border coordination center gave the go-ahead to American airstrikes that inadvertently killed 24 Pakistan troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, according to U.S. officials briefed on the preliminary investigation.

U.S. officials, giving their first detailed explanation of the worst friendly-fire incident of the 10-year-old war in Afghanistan, said an Afghan-led assault force that included American commandos were hunting Taliban militants when they came under fire from an encampment along the Afghan-Pakistan border.

The commandos thought they were being fired upon by militants. But the assailants turned out to be Pakistani military personnel who had established a temporary campsite, U.S. officials said.

According to the initial U.S. account from the field, the commandos requested airstrikes against the encampment, prompting the team to contact a joint border-control center to determine whether Pakistani forces were in the area, a U.S. official said.

The border-control center is manned by U.S., Afghan and Pakistani representatives who are supposed to share information and head off conflicts. But the U.S. and Afghan forces conducting the Nov. 26 commando operation hadn't notified the center in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, the official said.

When called, the Pakistani representatives at the center said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the Americans to conduct the airstrikes, the U.S. officials said.

Officials in Islamabad couldn't be reached to comment on the U.S. allegations. Pakistan repeatedly has denied its forces fired on the Americans.

Pakistan doesn't have veto authority over strikes along the border, U.S. officials said. But the North Atlantic Treaty Organization makes contact with the center to make sure its operations don't put Pakistani troops or aircraft in the line of fire.

U.S. officials acknowledge there were errors made on both sides in the incident, which occurred in the Mohmand tribal region, a lawless border area that abuts Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province. They have called the Pakistani deaths a terrible accident. "There were lots of mistakes made," the official said. "There was not good situational awareness to who was where and who was doing what."

To prevent conflicts, officials working in the border-control center need to know whether NATO forces are planning operations in the border area. That allows the Pakistanis to notify its forces that the U.S. and Afghan forces would be operating there.

But U.S. officials have in the past expressed reservations about notifying the Pakistanis about operations, concerned the missions' details could leak out.

The U.S. officials cautioned the latest account is based mainly on interviews with members of the commando team and could change as more information is gathered.

A formal report on the incident is due to be completed by U.S. military investigators by Dec. 23. Officials said that investigation could incorporate overhead imagery and information collected from the aircraft that struck the Pakistani position.

"Our view on this will not be complete until we've completed the investigation," a senior official said.
The incident resulted in another major setback to U.S.-Pakistan relations. In response, Pakistan has pulled out of an international conference on the Afghan war in Bonn, Germany, next week. Islamabad also has closed border crossings used by the U.S. and its NATO allies to bring in supplies for troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

Pakistani officials said earlier this week the attack on their base, known as Volcano, began just after midnight. About 50 minutes after the air assault began, Pakistani officials reached the NATO command in Afghanistan and told officials to call off the strikes, they said.

In addition to the strike on the border base, Pakistani officials said reinforcements trying to aid the stricken base also were hit by the airstrikes.

Pakistani military personnel in a second base began firing at the American helicopters. According to the Pakistani account, the helicopters flew off, then returned and struck the second post.

A senior Pakistani military officer said it was impossible for the U.S. not to know it was firing at Pakistani military bases.

U.S. officials countered that the Pakistani positions were more like makeshift campsites than established military bases. A U.S. official said that because the Taliban and Pakistani military use some of the same weaponry, it was difficult to tell who was firing at the assault force.

"There was absolutely no malicious, deliberate attack on the Pakistani military posts," a U.S. defense official said.

Other American officials said the Pakistani military should have known from the presence of helicopters used to ferry in the combined U.S.-Afghan commando force that Americans were in the area.

"If you hear American helicopters why would you lob mortars and machine gun fire at them? The Pakistanis can say we thought it was insurgents, except for the fact that the Taliban doesn't have helicopters," said the U.S. official.

The White House has decided, at least for now, against having President Barack Obama issue a video message offering condolences for the Pakistani deaths, officials said. The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan and other State Department officials had recommended such a video message to try to ease tensions between Washington and Islamabad over the incident.

But other officials argued that it was premature for Mr. Obama to intervene so publicly given continued uncertainty about what exactly transpired.

Republican candidates for the White House often accuse Mr. Obama of being too quick to apologize for U.S. actions.

"There was, obviously, no apology, and there was an expression of condolences," said White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, noting that the investigation into the incident was "at the early stages."

Tom Wright in New Delhi contributed to this article.

---------- Post added at 09:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------

US suspects NATO forces lured into deadly raid

ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON: NATO forces may have been lured into attacking friendly Pakistani border posts in a calculated maneuver by the Taliban, according to preliminary U.S. military reports on the deadliest friendly fire incident with Pakistan since the Afghanistan war began.

The NATO airstrike killed 24 Pakistani soldiers over the weekend in an apparent case of mistaken identity, The Associated Press has learned.

A joint U.S.-Afghan patrol was attacked by the Taliban early Saturday morning. While pursuing the enemy in the poorly marked border area, the patrol seems to have mistaken one of the Pakistan troop outposts for a militant encampment and called in a NATO gunship and attack helicopters to open fire.

U.S. officials say the reports suggest the Taliban may have deliberately tried to provoke a cross-border firefight that would set back fragile partnerships between the U.S. and NATO forces and Pakistani soldiers at the ill-defined border. Officials described the records on condition of anonymity to discuss classified matters.

A Pakistani woman joins other to condemn NATO strikes on Pakistani posts, in Peshawar, Pakistan on Monday, Nov. 28, 2011.

The incident has sent the perpetually difficult U.S.-Pakistan relationship into a tailspin.

Gen. James Mattis, head of U.S. Central Command, announced Monday he has appointed Brig. Gen. Stephen Clark, an Air Force special operations officer, to lead the probe of the incident, and said he must include input from the NATO-led forces in Afghanistan, as well as representatives from the Afghan and Pakistani governments.

According to the U.S. military records described to the AP, the joint U.S. and Afghan patrol requested backup after being hit by mortar and small arms fire by Taliban militants.

Before responding, the joint U.S.-Afghan patrol first checked with the Pakistani army, which reported it had no troops in the area, the military account said.

Some two hours later, still hunting the insurgents &#8212; who had by then apparently fled in the direction of Pakistani border posts &#8212; the U.S. commander spotted what he thought was a militant encampment, with heavy weapons mounted on tripods.

The joint patrol called for the airstrikes at around 2:21 a.m. Pakistani time, not realizing the encampment was apparently the Pakistani border post.

Records show the aerial response included Apache attack helicopters and an AC-130 gunship.

U.S. officials are working on the assumption the Taliban chose the location for the first attack to create just such confusion and draw U.S. and Pakistani forces into firing on each other, according to U.S. officials briefed on the operation.

At the White House, spokesman Jay Carney said President Barack Obama considers the Pakistani deaths a tragedy, and said the administration is determined to investigate.

The Pentagon released a four-page memo from Mattis directing Clark to determine what happened, which units were involved, which ones did or did not cross the border, how the operation was coordinated, and what caused the deaths and injuries.

Mattis also asked Clark to develop recommendations about how border operations could be improved, and said the final report should be submitted by December 23.

The details of the airstrike emerged as aftershocks were reverberating across the U.S. military and diplomatic landscape Monday, threatening communications and supply lines for the Afghan war and the success of an upcoming international conference.

While U.S. officials expressed regret and sympathy over the cross-border incident, they are not acknowledging blame, amid conflicting reports about who fired first.

The airstrike was politically explosive as well as deadly, coming as U.S. officials were working to repair relations with the Pakistanis after a series of major setbacks, including the U.S. commando raid into Pakistan that killed Osama bin Laden in May.

In recent weeks, military leaders had begun expressing some optimism that U.S.-Pakistan military cooperation along the border was beginning to improve. U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Daniel Allyn told Pentagon reporters just last Tuesday that incidents of firing from Pakistan territory had tapered off somewhat in recent weeks.

Speaking to reporters Monday, Pentagon press secretary George Little stressed the need for a strong military relationship with Pakistan.

"The Pakistani government knows our position on that, and that is we do regret the loss of life in this incident, and we are investigating it," said Little.

The military fallout began almost immediately.

Pakistan has blocked vital supply routes for U.S.-led troops in Afghanistan and demanded Washington vacate a base used by American drones. Pakistan ordered CIA employees to mothball their drone operation at Pakistan's Shamsi air base within two weeks, a senior Pakistani official said. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

On the diplomatic front, Pakistan said Tuesday it will boycott an international conference on Afghanistan next week to protest the incident.

The decision to boycott the Bonn, Germany, conference was made during a Pakistani Cabinet meeting in the city of Lahore, said three officials who attended the meeting. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media ahead of an official announcement.

The State Department also issued a new warning for U.S. citizens in Pakistan. It said some U.S. government personnel working in Pakistan were being recalled to Islamabad and warned Americans to be on guard for possible retaliation. U.S. citizens in Pakistan are being told to travel in pairs, avoid crowds and demonstrations and keep a low profile.


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## indushek

President Camacho said:


> This is what the WSJ article says:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, when fired at the copter, the NATO forces went back and communicated with the Pakistani command to ascertain the presence of the troops. Per their claims, after receiving a response in the negative, they took the posts to be those of the Taliban, and went ahead with the attack with full force.
> 
> And here's the flame:
> 
> 
> 
> The only line that may come out now will be... "What we've got here... is failure to communicate".



What an excellent flip, now who is telling the truth???


----------



## Awesome

Pakistan had given GPS coordinates of its checkposts to Nato. The question of Pakistani forces being in the area becomes null and void when you have a permanent presence there.

Who did they speak to? Such exchanges should have a detailed audit trail. Sounds like BS.

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## karan.1970

MastanKhan said:


> Vcheng,
> 
> Where did you disappear man------.



He got banned


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## karan.1970

indushek said:


> What an excellent flip, now who is telling the truth???



If this is indeed true, then What I suspect is the following 2 scenarios

1. Pakistan forces were involved in fire attack on NATO 300 or so yards away. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to deny their involvement in the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the source of attack which turned out to be the Paksitani checkpost

2. NATO forces came under attack from the vicinity of the checkpost from some militants. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to avoid any appearance of their involvement in the the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the area and Pakistani checkpost got caught in the fire storm.

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## Areesh

indushek said:


> What an excellent flip, now who is telling the truth???



Obviously Pakistan.


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## President Camacho

indushek said:


> What an excellent flip, now who is telling the truth???



What is the most convincing piece of argument?

A loaded gun.

And who's got the bigger gun here?

The truth, when in the history of mankind, did the truth ever matter? For all I know, the truth is what we (individually) believe.



Anyway, the Americans will also get satellite imagery and data from the plane to show the world who was at mistake.

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## Stealth

Above Program... Oct 5th...

Two days back In my dreams i also saw two A-10 Intruder into Pakistan's Airspace  and behind Pakistan F16s. Within seconds both A-10 shotdown by F16 and 1 F16 belong to Pakistan crashed over civilian population.... don't know what exactly is going on. It true or not but i have also seen same dream


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## soul hacker

Javed Chaudhry offers an interesting story in Daily Express regarding the appointment of Chief of Air Staff.although its an old article


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## salmakh84

This is the latest news (*2 Decemeber 2011*):






English:

KARACHI: An American official disclosed to Geo News that US is not going to vacate Shamsi airbase in near future and Washington is mulling various options.

The Obama administration is considering change in America's Pakistan policy but the decision to vacate Shamsi base has not been taken yet, he added.

'US considers Pakistan an important ally in war against terror and do not expect big change in ties.' 

----

Btw, similar demands were made some time ago (*Jun 2011*) and US said we wont vacate, whereas our ARMY/Politicians insisted they will vacate the base. Now who says our generals are not sellouts?

US rejects demand to vacate Shamsi base | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

--

Edit: A bit of more history.

2005: Google earth images show drones parked in Pakistan. Pakistan (ISPR) as usual deny it.
2007: Pictures show Pakistani armed forces visiting US Drone's... Public still in denial 
2009: Another news item confirms drones persence and the changes in shamsi base (http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=163174&Cat=2&dt=2/18/2009)
2011: Pakistan DENY again US had bases. Than after proven, they claimed they had NO idea (whatever) and actually they had given it to UAE sheikh for shikar (yeah, right...)
2011 June: Pakistan ask (yeah, right , again) to vacate shamsi airbase (link above)
2011 Nov: Nato incident. Pakistan asks US to vacate base.. (lols, right?)
2011 Dec: US refuses to vacate base..

now the future
2013: Pakistan denies US operating hundreds of personal at Shahbaz and Shamsi base
2013: Pakistan asks US to vacate shamsi base
2014: Pictures show americans have bases
2015: americans refuse to leave...

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## Stealth

inka peoo b karayga khali bohat sar pe char gaye hain! ye hamsay larayga jo taliban vietnami aur iraqyoon say maar kha chuka hey!

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## Mytime

America wouldn't need to get engaged in a full scale war kinda scenario with Pak until its leaders both military and civilian buckle down to back room arm twisting by America . Why would America Attack Pak until their dictates have been listened to by the leadership without opposing it


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## BATMAN

Typical.... always conflicting news and statements, our media like DAWN, & GEO towing the enemy agenda.

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## TaimiKhan

President Camacho said:


> This is what the WSJ article says:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, when fired at the copter, the NATO forces went back and communicated with the Pakistani command to ascertain the presence of the troops. Per their claims, after receiving a response in the negative, they took the posts to be those of the Taliban, and went ahead with the attack with full force.
> 
> And here's the flame:
> 
> 
> 
> The only line that may come out now will be... "What we've got here... is failure to communicate".



So, you guys are good with what the unnamed official sources have to tell, but not OK with the official version of ISPR. What an irony. 

here, read this passage carefully from the first post of this thread:

" *By 1 a.m. all channels of communications with the other side were activated and the helicopters were pulled back. But as Pakistani troops moved from one post to the other to assess the damage and aid the injured, the helicopters reappeared and pinned them down.* Some 26 artillery airbursts were fired by the Pakistani side and the engagement lasted until 0215.

Answering a question, he said the civil authorities including the president, the prime minister and the foreign and defence ministers were informed in the &#8220;morning&#8221; about the incident which began around midnight and lasted for two hours.

The reason for the implied delay in informing the civil authorities, he said, was because a complete picture had not emerged until daybreak.

*It was clear from General Nadeem&#8217;s briefing that there was misleading information being provided to the Pakistan military from the start. Just before the attack, a Pakistani officer at the regional tactical center was informed by an American sergeant that their special forces had received indirect fire from Gora Pai, located some 15 kilometres away from Volcano post. And after 7 minutes, a woman officer informed him that the fire had, in fact, come from Volcano, which had been hit in retaliation."*


Read the bold parts and especially the red highlighted part, what ISPR said does kind of agrees with what this unnamed official said, that pakistanis were told about this thing before they gave the clear signal, but what the Americans told was 15Km away from where the post was. So may be this is what WSJ is talking about, they tell the Pakistanis who watch the map and see that we have no post nearby since Golra Pai is 15KM away from this very post and give the go ahead, but then the US changes their coordinates and start firing at the post. I wonder how in 7 minutes the coordinates changed 15Km from where the initial report of attack reported by the special forces.

I think the ISPR version is very much the real one since it is corroborating what the WSJ is saying, but NATO later changed the coordinates and fired deliberately on the post. May be WSJ is telling the half truth to hide their deliberate action. may be it was a deliberate planned mission, first ask the Pakistanis about a place which has no troops, and once get approval from them, attack the post and then blame it on the Pakistani coordinators at that centre. 

Anyway, you guys keep believing the WSJ kind of unnamed officials, we will stick with the official Pakistani version. PA did thorough investigation and everything is simple, so should have been for the NATO officials since it not a difficult task to get the gun camera crew and see what the pilots were seeing, they get all their communication recorded, not hard to sit and listen to it in a few hours time and get a picture of what really happened. Simple process, since NATO is asking for few weeks to do the investigation, they will definitely hide the facts and the truth.

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## BATMAN




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## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> If this is indeed true, then What I suspect is the following 2 scenarios
> 
> 1. Pakistan forces were involved in fire attack on NATO 300 or so yards away. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to deny their involvement in the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the source of attack which turned out to be the Paksitani checkpost
> 
> 2. NATO forces came under attack from the vicinity of the checkpost from some militants. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to avoid any appearance of their involvement in the the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the area and Pakistani checkpost got caught in the fire storm.


 
So in every scenario that your present, NATO always comes right. This is the reason you shouldn't post because all your assessments reek of biased mentality that a handful of you display every opportunity. Thanks God, most of the Indians do not possess the same mentality.

And had there been any single attack on that Afghan side, they would have provided video evidence the same day of atleast some destruction or bullet holes! Dude, someday the situation will be reversed and hopefully I will have the opportunity to return this 'neutral observations'!

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## President Camacho

karan.1970 said:


> If this is indeed true, then What I suspect is the following 2 scenarios
> 
> 1. Pakistan forces were involved in fire attack on NATO 300 or so yards away. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to deny their involvement in the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the source of attack which turned out to be the Paksitani checkpost
> 
> 2. NATO forces came under attack from the vicinity of the checkpost from some militants. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to avoid any appearance of their involvement in the the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the area and Pakistani checkpost got caught in the fire storm.



The second one sounds very plausible to me, with a bit of modification though..

Frequent firings take place on the border between Pakistani and Afghan forces. The Afghans this time hosted NATO forces, that Pakistani side was not aware of. The NATO forces communicated with Pakistani high command about the presence of troops. Taking the matter lightly, as any other such firing in the past, Pakistani high command must have denied the presence. The NATO forces, assured they were under fire from terrorists wanting to cross the border, came down heavily on the posts. 

However, when considering the US official's words, the only part I fail to understand is why would the Pakistani forces fire at the helicopter? That is like sending out an invitation to bring about a lethal attack, and that's exactly what happened. 

Well, we are at acute dearth of information here, and it is all speculation until the reports and evidences are out. From Pakistan's side, we only got the words of the ISPR to believe. Let us see what comes from the west, just words again, or something to look at.


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## turkishstar

can any one answer this.?
1.are pakistani radars blind to see these AH-1s
2.why we got spada2000, HQ-9,crotale2000/4000,mistral,stringer(downed lot of hinds),rb-70 if it can't shoot a drone or nato aircrafts.?
3.the purpose of peshawar airforce base.?


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## niazifighter

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistan had given GPS coordinates of its checkposts to Nato. The question of Pakistani forces being in the area becomes null and void when you have a permanent presence there.
> 
> Who did they speak to? Such exchanges should have a detailed audit trail. Sounds like BS.


 
you didn't read the report i guess!!!
pakistani posts are more like make shift camps rather then being a permanent bases and that actually was a reason why they consulted coordination border center to have a go ahead 

no one can deny and dispel the coordination border center because we all know both militaries cooperate explicitly and profusely, we also know a video of both armies mingling with each other probably on border center so above report should be given some credence


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Good support this decision 100%

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## bubble123

Well i guess that makes us a proud banana republic.


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## BATMAN

---------- Post added at 06:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 AM ----------




turkishstar said:


> can any one answer this.?
> 1.are pakistani radars blind to see these AH-1s
> 2.why we got spada2000, HQ-9,crotale2000/4000,mistral,stringer(downed lot of hinds),rb-70 if it can't shoot a drone or nato aircrafts.?
> 3.the purpose of peshawar airforce base.?



Soldiers, who went for rescue were also killed by Apache.

SPADA2000 is for all out war senario.


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## rai_kamal

Ok,finally some investigation come from Nato.
I still can't believe that officials have informed that the area is clear,and on the otherside they are saying that the soldiers were asleep,man this is even unbelieve thing..
Don't know which side to support,i think some should also come up from pakistani side about which official had told them about that areas clearance ??
Because its getting more and more complex day by day...


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## TaimiKhan

President Camacho said:


> What is the most convincing piece of argument?
> 
> A loaded gun.
> 
> And who's got the bigger gun here?
> 
> The truth, when in the history of mankind, did the truth ever matter? For all I know, the truth is what we (individually) believe.
> 
> Anyway, the Americans will also get satellite imagery and data from the plane to show the world who was at mistake.



I hope you do remember the official version of the US army of killing lots of militants / insurgents in Baghdad and the celebrations they had, and later when the wikileaks leaked the gun camera imagery it was found that they had gunned down innocent civilians, while the helicopter guys took a camera fitted with long lens as a weapons most likely a RPG-7 and based on that one weapon with one guy among so many, they engaged and killed all of them. 

Truth was that US army killed militants, wikileaks exposed the truth as innocent Baghdadis getting chopped up with 30mm fire. 

The same US army whom you championing for truth had lied in this incident, but truth was exposed by someone else. So many other cases where the US armed forces / USA gave the truth and truth came out to be a lie, WMDs in Iraq to be one, AQ had links with Saddam to be another, Abu Gharib etc etc and the list goes on.

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## BATMAN

niazifighter said:


> you didn't read the report i guess!!!
> pakistani posts are more like make shift camps rather then being a permanent bases and that actually was a reason why they consulted coordination border center to have a go ahead
> 
> no one can deny and dispel the coordination border center because we all know both militaries cooperate explicitly and profusely, we also know a video of both armies mingling with each other probably on border center so above report should be given some credence



Pakistani posts are in bad condition because ghadari is not issuing funds for WOT against TTP.
I wonder what is the point in not equipping our soldiers to fight against terrorists.
I agree govt. shall allocate huge funds to face bharti sponsored TTP.

---------- Post added at 06:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 AM ----------




rai_kamal said:


> Ok,finally some investigation come from Nato.
> I still can't believe that officials have informed that the area is clear,and on the otherside they are saying that the soldiers were asleep,man this is even unbelieve thing..
> Don't know which side to support,i think some should also come up from pakistani side about which official had told them about that areas clearance ??
> Because its getting more and more complex day by day...



It is not complex... it is simple bharat lured NATO to attack Pakistani posts via its proxy TTP.

All Pakistan need to do is send few babur to South bharat.


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## President Camacho

@Taimi,

There's barely any information coming out. I have not discounted any info here. I have believed every single word that came out, anonymous, or official, American, or Pakistani - simply because I want to explore every possibility.

Why do I want to explore every possibility - Because entire episode is covered in darkness, and all that we hear are nothing but words that go beyond common sense.

We are all aware of the repercussions of such an act on part of NATO. This act goes against the goals of NATO, and even threatens to derail the processes undertaken. So when the ISPR says that it was a deliberate act, I do not buy that.

About Americans, they say that the Pakistani troops fired at helicopters. I cannot believe that either because the Pakistani troops would have to be too stupid to fire at helis and invite that attack when they themselves had no air support.

I hope now you understand why it would be prudent to wait for the other side's report to come out as well.


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## TaimiKhan

Mav3rick said:


> So in every scenario that your present, NATO always comes right. This is the reason you shouldn't post because all your assessments reek of biased mentality that a handful of you display every opportunity. Thanks God, most of the Indians do not possess the same mentality.
> 
> And had there been any single attack on that Afghan side, they would have provided video evidence the same day of atleast some destruction or bullet holes! Dude, someday the situation will be reversed and hopefully I will have the opportunity to return this 'neutral observations'!



yaar, why are you complaining, they are Indians. They will never trust anything from our side, they are our enemies and thus they will always be happy on our deaths and will never accept the version we given, even if you give a video of the incident to them, they will not accept it, they will always find a fault with it and blame us. 


Don't waste your time on them.


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## President Camacho

TaimiKhan said:


> I hope you do remember the official version of the US army of killing lots of militants / insurgents in Baghdad and the celebrations they had, and later when the wikileaks leaked the gun camera imagery it was found that they had gunned down innocent civilians, while the helicopter guys took a camera fitted with long lens as a weapons most likely a RPG-7 and based on that one weapon with one guy among so many, they engaged and killed all of them.
> 
> Truth was that US army killed militants, wikileaks exposed the truth as innocent Baghdadis getting chopped up with 30mm fire.
> 
> *The same US army whom you championing for truth* had lied in this incident, but truth was exposed by someone else. So many other cases where the US armed forces / USA gave the truth and truth came out to be a lie, WMDs in Iraq to be one, AQ had links with Saddam to be another, Abu Gharib etc etc and the list goes on.



All that for the bold part?

I never called anyone a champion of truth. About atrocities during war, they happen everywhere. Tell me a country/race/religion/ethnicity that has remained immune to it.

I do not even know why you brought Iraq here. May be you want to show me some specific past events and help me base my judgment on that. I am sorry, I will not do that - not my thing. If I were to do that, you wouldn't want to know what I would think of Pakistani Army as. So let's drop that mental seasoning.

About Iraq war, I will gladly let you in on my feelings - If it were up to me, and not Bush, Saddam would have been dead before Y2K.


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## Zarvan

Pak army chief gives 'full liberty' to troops to retaliate future NATO attacks - The Times of India


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## TaimiKhan

here guys, watch and read this: 
*
" After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement".*

Collateral Murder


They kill innocent people, video gun camera is clearly showing what the guy was carrying, the US military being championed to be always telling the truth, hid this video and the truth exposed by someone else.

This is how these NATO/US show their version of truth.


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## PakShaheen79

This is an old article written by Javed Choudhry in daily Express when Rao Qamar Suleman was made Air Chief. It is true every one was eyeing Shahid Latif to be the next Air Chief but i think we must not read too much into this as being an Air Chief, Rao Suleman has done equally good. Now if there was a external pressure of meddling in this decision that must be investigated properly but i don't remember a moment when Shahid Latif complaint about the decision.


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## Stealth

BS by Americans AS USUAL! after all UNITED STATE OF ****


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## Black Widow

Zarvan said:


> Pak army chief gives 'full liberty' to troops to retaliate future NATO attacks - The Times of India




It will worsen the scenario. More blood shed on Border. Pakistani soldiers are not match of Nato forces (In technical terms). In bravery they can be better.

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## Hellfire

Zarvan said:


> *Finally Thanks GOD Kiyani showed guts and allowed troops to hit back yes now **if any attack Nato can expect horrible response from us this is should be enough of warning for Nato*



Horrible response from you? I think you all gave a very horrible response post OBL incident ie NONE!! Dont you think that by hitting your troops (posts of whose would have been known to US for sure) the US wants you to exactly retaliate? Well its time Pakistan understood that giving covering fire or firing on troops operating near IB against militants is not exactly a very nice way to show friendly feelings.

Pakistani troops regularly resort to firing when Indian troops are conducting search and destroy missions against militants close to LC in order to facilitate exfiltration/infiltration of the militants ... so am not very surprised that they fired on US troops and got a response in reverse.

However, last time when US forces had hit OBL, Kayani had declared realiation against any NATO troops crossing into their territory ... and what happened? Today also NATO air strike struck into your territory .... ! This is just for public consumption. US would love to see you hit back ......


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## TaimiKhan

President Camacho said:


> @Taimi,
> 
> There's barely any information coming out. I have not discounted any info here. I have believed every single word that came out, anonymous, or official, American, or Pakistani - simply because I want to explore every possibility.
> 
> Why do I want to explore every possibility - Because entire episode is covered in darkness, and all that we hear are nothing but words that go beyond common sense.
> 
> We are all aware of the repercussions of such an act on part of NATO. This act goes against the goals of NATO, and even threatens to derail the processes undertaken. So when the ISPR says that it was a deliberate act, I do not buy that.
> 
> About Americans, they say that the Pakistani troops fired at helicopters. I cannot believe that either because the Pakistani troops would have to be too stupid to fire at helis and invite that attack when they themselves had no air support.
> 
> I hope now you understand why it would be prudent to wait for the other side's report to come out as well.



PA troops are hardly equipped with decent night fighting equipment. Hardly one piece of NVGs are supplied to such posts, and these NVGs are good for some hundred meters, and few posts / troops have the thermal devices, which again good for a few hundred meters. Our 12.7mm platforms are not equipped with night seeing equipment. I wonder with hardly any good NVGs, how did the troops saw the helicopters which mush be atleast 500m-1KM away or more away from the post and firing from there. What were the troops firing at when they can't see in the night ?? We have mostly 1st gen NVGs which are god at just a few hundred meters distance. That is the reason i am not buying the NATO story. Had it been day time, i would have believed. Our troops are night blind, thus NATO saying their troops got engaged at night by the Pakistani post is BS. 

Also, i am having dinner for the last 2 days consecutively who works in the Corps HQ and is involved in the investigation, it was deliberate. the reason PA is so harsh this time, is the main reason that the attack was deliberate.


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## mjnaushad

Heard a news yesterday that Kiyani order to end chain of Command system..... From now on the officer on the post will decide what to do......


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## All-Green

The fact remains that NATO attacked and martyred our troops.
This fact cannot change, no matter how many investigations we carry out.
NATO is not blind at night, does not lack for surveillance assets, nor does it lack for information regarding Pakistani check posts and positions on this porous border.

This is something Pakistan should understand and take sensible action accordingly.
We should deal with this as a deliberate attack on Pakistan, regardless of any crocodile tears shed by anyone.
Sadly even the crocodile tears are not coming...
There is no real apology forthcoming and frankly this makes our decision easier in a diplomatic sense.
If we cannot be allies then let us stop this drama and go our separate ways.

The first step is to stop NATO from resupplying through Pakistan and stop cooperating with NATO in any form.
Military confrontation is not needed if we first do things in a logical order.
If we calculate the fact that 30-40% of the supplies reach NATO through Pakistan then 4 out of every 10 rounds fired by NATO were brought through Pakistan in the first place.

Let us first stop helping them resupply and detach ourselves from this wonderful partnership which has been a farce on part of all the parties involved.

Regarding comments on PAF, i believe that this was a diplomatic trap.
Even now the Afghan comments are being highlighted by the western media, which ofcourse are in favor of NATO.
Had PAF engaged the aggressors, things would have gotten really ugly for Pakistan and would have been spun in another manner entirely.

I am not saying that we get spanked and do nothing, just that our reaction should now be very well planned.
First and foremost, NATO should not be able to resupply through the land which they attack.
Simple as that!
Let us then see what other pressures can be applied to ensure NATO is restricted.
I am sure no country in this region wants NATO to play its war games here.
There is a lot that can be done, however if Pakistan plays ally to NATO and then pleads such a case with the regional stakeholders...you can imagine how ineffective it can be!
Let us call a spade a spade and be done with this, however let us not go about things in the wrong order.

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## Hellfire

BATMAN said:


> *Pakistani posts are in bad condition because ghadari is not issuing funds for WOT against TTP.
> I wonder what is the point in not equipping our soldiers to fight against terrorists.
> I agree govt. shall allocate huge funds to face bharti sponsored TTP*



Pakistani posts are in bad condition because Pakistanis had very few posts in that area, all are now makeshift as Pakistanis wait for NATO/ISAF/US to leave Afghanistan .....
The point in not equipping your soldiers to fight against terrorists is ... that PA needs to buy weaponry to shore up conventional battlefield equipment to fight India. Majority of the funds allocated to Pakistan for WoT are being siphoned for that purpose only so whats the surprise?
As for Indian supported TTP, well we dont need to .... the support of TTP is sufficient from within Pakistan that India needs only to sit on its *** and laugh away as you guys fight each other in your homes and your cities!! Why train groups in India? Why supply them stuff from here? All is available in pakistan locally!!



BATMAN said:


> *It is not complex... it is simple bharat lured NATO to attack Pakistani posts via its proxy TTP.
> 
> All Pakistan need to do is send few babur to South bharat.*



Its not complex its simple .... only delusional thoughts from Pakistan are to be expected. India lured NATO to attack Pakistani posts? Now we will lure them to invade Pakistan through our proxies "US-NATO-ISAF" !!!!!!

Oh please do send your Baburs .... we await them .... !

---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------




Stealth said:


> *BS by Americans AS USUAL! after all UNITED STATE OF *****



And consumed by their Pakistani Allies the staunchest ally US has in WoT!!!!!!! AS USUAL!!!

Only Pakistan can be so gullible!!!!


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## PiyaraPakistan

Islamabad - 1st December 2011

Today on Friday the General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani (HI), the chief of Army staff has suspended 'chain of command' system to counter any aggression. The Army Chief has suspended the chain of command system in order to enable the senior officers on the posts to take appropriate action in case Pakistani forces come under attack.

The decision would however be applicable to eventualities involving Nato troops.

General Kayani has also ordered the troops to counter any aggression with full force and defend the motherland against any assailant. General Kayani has also said that the Pakistan Air Force should have taken action while Nato helicopters had violated the Pakistani airspace and attacked the Pakistani posts.

In a letter written to the Armed Forces Chiefs, COAS Gen Kayani has said that the PAF jets must have dashed to the border area after the Nato attack. General Kayani has also observed that the communication of the attacked posts had snapped after the Nato attack. He said that now the senior officer on the ground would decide about counter measures.


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## Omar1984

This is Pakistan's property not America's property.


Shamsi Airbase is just too valuable to the Americans. Just look at the location. Near Afghanistan and near FATA. Why did the government and army of Pakistan lie so much to their people. Without Pakistan's government and army approval, theres no way America can carry out drone attacks.

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## Navy SEAL Sniper

To be very honest I believe that Pakistan does not have a say in this. We as a nation are so blackmailed by the DEVELOPED countries that they always have their way with us. If you ask me, allowing air space to foreigners is during extreme measure but since the time we've opened up our air space to them they enter our country at will and create more damage to our innocent country men and property as compared to killing terrorists.

Shamsi Air Base should be closed. If these allied countries vacate Afghanistan in 2014 whom do you think will have to deal with the remaining Al Qaeda operatives ?

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## Ganga

All-Green said:


> The fact remains that NATO attacked and martyred our troops.
> This fact cannot change, no matter how many investigations we carry out.
> NATO is not blind at night, does not lack for surveillance assets, nor does it lack for information regarding Pakistani check posts and positions on this porous border.
> 
> 
> .



Many people are asking how the NATO could not have known about the posts.One of the answers is that the attack was intentional.According to some analysts Pakistani troops often give covering fire to Taliban militants while they cross into Afghanistan to launch attacks on ISAF troops.This time however they decided to teach the Pakistanis a lesson by firing at their posts.This is one of the theories.


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## President Camacho

TaimiKhan said:


> PA troops are hardly equipped with decent night fighting equipment. Hardly one piece of NVGs are supplied to such posts, and these NVGs are good for some hundred meters, and few posts / troops have the thermal devices, which again good for a few hundred meters. Our 12.7mm platforms are not equipped with night seeing equipment. I wonder with hardly any good NVGs, how did the troops saw the helicopters which mush be atleast 500m-1KM away or more away from the post and firing from there. What were the troops firing at when they can't see in the night ?? We have mostly 1st gen NVGs which are god at just a few hundred meters distance. That is the reason i am not buying the NATO story. Had it been day time, i would have believed. Our troops are night blind, thus NATO saying their troops got engaged at night by the Pakistani post is BS.
> 
> Also, i am having dinner for the last 2 days consecutively who works in the Corps HQ and is involved in the investigation, it was deliberate. the reason PA is so harsh this time, is the main reason that the attack was deliberate.



Some how I am more convinced that it was 300 meters. The border runs through the peaks in that area, and not through the valleys. In the video, the nearest peak line looked barely 200-300 yards away from the check posts, and the next link of peaks, past the valley, appeared about 5 miles away at least. But it was just a video, and I am not a dweller of that area - I may very well be at mistake.

But anyway, that does not matter to me, because whether 1 KM, or 2 KM or just 2 meters, whatever the distance was, I cannot figure out the reason for the Pakistani troops to open fire at combat helicopters. I do not know much about military tactics and firepower, but in my opinion it would be suicidal, unless you have proper air support. The Pakistani troops did not have that. So for the Pakistani troops to fire at the helicopters, when lacking any anti-ariel guns (Pakistan's stand is that they did not fire mortars at the helicopters, Americans say they did), would defeat common sense.

Having said that, the NATO forces deliberately taking on the Pakistani troops, and killing not one or two, but 2 dozen troops, and so swiftly, that was to jeopardize their position and leverage with Pakistan. And it did. So their attacking the Pakistani troops deliberately also beats common sense.

Taimi yar, you want me to drop the points of the other side, and completely believe your side. Come on, we should be checking the version of both the sides impartially, right? And the fact is, the NATO's version is not out yet. This is why in each and every of my post I am saying we are left to just speculate - unless, we buy ISPR's story wholeheartedly, and throw everything away. That won't be right man.


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## mjnaushad

Ganga said:


> Many people are asking how the NATO could not have known about the posts.One of the answers is that the attack was intentional.According to some analysts Pakistani troops often give covering fire to Taliban militants while they cross into Afghanistan to launch attacks on ISAF troops.This time however they decided to teach the Pakistanis a lesson by firing at their posts.This is one of the theories.



Have you ever in your life heard a gunfire ...... If you can sleep in gunfire than i'll say you sleep like dead...... There is no proof they give COVERING fire to taliban...... Just your little fantasy....


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## Ganga

mjnaushad said:


> Have you ever in your life heard a gunfire ...... If you can sleep in gunfire than i'll say you sleep like dead...... There is no proof they give COVERING fire to taliban...... Just your little fantasy....



I am not the one saying this.Experts who know the area and have studied the region have said this.


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## Zarvan

hellfire said:


> Horrible response from you? I think you all gave a very horrible response post OBL incident ie NONE!! Dont you think that by hitting your troops (posts of whose would have been known to US for sure) the US wants you to exactly retaliate? Well its time Pakistan understood that giving covering fire or firing on troops operating near IB against militants is not exactly a very nice way to show friendly feelings.
> 
> Pakistani troops regularly resort to firing when Indian troops are conducting search and destroy missions against militants close to LC in order to facilitate exfiltration/infiltration of the militants ... so am not very surprised that they fired on US troops and got a response in reverse.
> 
> However, last time when US forces had hit OBL, Kayani had declared realiation against any NATO troops crossing into their territory ... and what happened? Today also NATO air strike struck into your territory .... ! This is just for public consumption. US would love to see you hit back ......


Sir not latest strike has taken place yesterday there was a skirmish and Army responded back so they ran away


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## mjnaushad

President Camacho said:


> Some how I am more convinced that it was 300 meters. The border runs through the peaks in that area, and not through the valleys. In the video, the nearest peak line looked barely 200-300 yards away from the check posts, and the next link of peaks, past the valley, appeared about 5 miles away at least. But it was just a video, and I am not a dweller of that area - I may very well be at mistake.
> 
> But anyway, that does not matter to me, because whether 1 KM, or 2 KM or just 2 meters, whatever the distance was,* I cannot figure out the reason for the Pakistani troops to open fire at combat helicopters.* I do not know much about military tactics and firepower, but in my opinion it would be suicidal, unless you have proper air support. The Pakistani troops did not have that. So for the Pakistani troops to fire at the helicopters, when lacking any anti-ariel guns (Pakistan's stand is that they did not fire mortars at the helicopters, Americans say they did), would defeat common sense.
> 
> Having said that, the NATO forces deliberately taking on the Pakistani troops, and killing not one or two, but 2 dozen troops, and so swiftly, that was to jeopardize their position and leverage with Pakistan. And it did. So their attacking the Pakistani troops deliberately also beats common sense.
> 
> Taimi yar, you want me to drop the points of the other side, and completely believe your side. Come on, we should be checking the version of both the sides impartially, right? And the fact is, the NATO's version is not out yet. This is why in each and every of my post I am saying we are left to just speculate - unless, we buy ISPR's story wholeheartedly, and throw everything away. That won't be right man.



I think they dont have orders.... In case of Ally incursion they are suppose to report back to HQ and then HQ tell them whether to fire or not... But there was a unconfirmed news yesterday that Kiyani order to break Chain of command and from now on Officer on the post will decide what to do.

---------- Post added at 11:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------




Ganga said:


> I am not the one saying this.Experts who know the area and have studied the region have said this.



For example????


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## Navy SEAL Sniper

During the war on terrorism the map with highlighted Pakistani checkposts location were provided to NATO in order to avoid cross fires like such. Pak Army was informed about gun fire 15kms away from one of their checkposts and we asked for coordinates in order to investigate the gun fire but suddenly NATO decided to attack ! At the start of the attack NATO was informed that they are shooting at friendlies but still the attack continued for an hour or so. So how can this be a mistake / error ?

We lost so much in trying to clean up the mess which Karzai was hired to do and still he blaims us for everything. So naive !


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## notsuperstitious

WHAT? These UAV strikes the pakistani gernails keep protesting for the highly receptive populace were being carried out from Pakistani soil???

Its a wonder of wonders.

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## 53fd

More lies being manufactured.

*Pakistan gave OK to deadly Nato air strike: WSJ*



> Pakistani officials gave the go-ahead to a Nato air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday quoting US officials.
> 
> Last weekend&#8217;s cross-border attack has caused public outrage in Pakistan, where the government has pulled out of next week&#8217;s international conference on Afghanistan and threatened to end support for the US-led war there if its sovereignty is violated again.
> 
> The US officials, giving their first detailed explanation of the worst friendly-fire incident of the 10-year-old war, said an Afghan-led assault force that included US commandos was hunting Taliban militants when it came under fire from an encampment along the border with Pakistan, the Journal said in an online report.
> 
> The commandos thought they were being fired on by militants but who turned out to be Pakistani military personnel who had established a temporary campsite, they were quoted as saying.
> 
> According to the initial US account from the field, the commandos requested air strikes against the encampment, prompting the team to contact a joint border-control centre to determine whether Pakistani forces were in the area, a US official said.
> 
> The border-control centre is manned by US, Afghan and Pakistani representatives. But the US and Afghan forces conducting the Nov. 26 commando operation had not notified the centre in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, the official said.
> 
> When called, the Pakistani representatives at the centre said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the air strikes, the US officials said.
> 
> Washington has called it a tragic accident and offered its condolences, promising a full investigation. It has not apologised.
> 
> &#8220;There were lots of mistakes made,&#8221; the newspaper quoted an official as saying.
> 
> The Journal said US officials have in the past expressed reservations about notifying the Pakistanis about operations, concerned the missions&#8217; details could leak out.
> 
> It added that the officials cautioned that the preliminary account is based mainly on interviews with members of the commando team and could change as more information is gathered.
> 
> A formal report on the incident is due to be completed by US military investigators by Dec. 23.



Pakistan gave OK to deadly Nato air strike: WSJ | World | DAWN.COM

And the US just realized this was the case? Why wasn't this said before? And btw, what are the names of these officials, & what authority do they have of speaking on the incident?


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## bdslph

there must be reasons and also i dont get it i know it is important 
i think best for Pakistan to kick them out and show them that u really mean it and you have guts 

if they stay there then Pakistan looks loser , no offense to any one pls

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## Devil Soul

Report: Pakistan gave 'go-ahead' before NATO attack, says US
By Web Desk
Published: December 2, 2011

WASHINGTON: The West is striving to limit the fallout from a deadly Nato air raid on Pakistani border troops, but reports that Pakistani soldiers opened fire first on US and Afghan forces risked stoking new tensions.
Pakistani military officials gave the go-ahead to US airstrikes that inadvertently led to the death of 24 Pakistani soldiers in Mohmand Agency on November 26, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.
US officials giving a detailed account of the attack to WSJ said that an Afghan-led assault force that included American commandos was hunting down Taliban fighters when it was fired at from the Salala checkpost along the Pakistani side of the border.
According to US officials, the commandos first thought they were being fired at by Taliban militants, but later discovered that the fire reportedly came from Pakistani troops.
This led the commandoes to request an airstrike against the assailants, who then contacted a joint border-control center to verify if there were any Pakistani troops present at the checkpost.
The Pakistani representatives at the center reportedly said that there were no Pakistani troops in the area; the US officials told the WSJ that this cleared the way for the Americans to conduct the airstrikes.
The border-control center is manned by US, Afghan and Pakistani officials who share information and divert conflicts. On November 26, however, US and Afghan forces conducting the operation had not contacted the center in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, an official said.
Officials working in the border-control center need to know whether Nato forces are planning operations in the border area, in order to prevent conflict. This allows the Pakistanis to notify its forces that the US and Afghan forces would be operating there.
US officials have in the past expressed reservations about notifying the Pakistanis about operations, concerned the missions details could leak out, the report stated.
One US official said that it is sometimes difficult to tell who is firing at the assault force, because the Taliban and Pakistani military use some of the same weaponry.
There was absolutely no malicious, deliberate attack on the Pakistani military posts, a US defense official said.
Other American officials said the Pakistani military should have known from the presence of helicopters in the combined US-Afghan commando force that Americans were in the area.
If you hear American helicopters why would you lob mortars and machine gun fire at them? The Pakistanis can say we thought it was insurgents, except for the fact that the Taliban doesnt have helicopters, said the US official.
The United States, which depends on Pakistan as a vital lifeline to supply 130,000 foreign troops fighting in landlocked Afghanistan, on Sunday scrambled to salvage the alliance, backing a full inquiry and expressing condolences.
Nato secretary general Anders Fogh Rasmussen also sought to soothe Islamabads rage, but stopped short of issuing a full apology for the tragic, unintended killings.
In retaliation for the raid, Islamabad has blocked Nato convoys from crossing into Afghanistan, ordered a review of its alliance with the US and mulled whether to boycott a key conference on Afghanistan next month.
Hundreds of enraged Pakistanis took to the streets Sunday, burning an effigy of President Barack Obama and setting fire to US flags across the country of 167 million where opposition to the governments US alliance is rampant.
Pakistan says the attack was unprovoked.
Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar telephoned US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to convey a deep sense of rage as a joint funeral was held for the dead soldiers, their coffins draped in the national flag.
But a report in Mondays Wall Street Journal  denied by Islamabad  said the Nato jets and helicopters responded to firing from a Pakistani post on the ill-defined Afghan border.
The article, which followed a similar report by Britains Guardian newspaper, cited three Afghan officials and one Western official as saying the air raid was called in to shield allied forces targeting Taliban fighters.
Nato and Afghan forces were fired on from a Pakistani army base, the unnamed Western official told the Wall Street Journal. It was a defensive action.
An Afghan official in Kabul was quoted as saying: There was firing coming from the position against Afghan army soldiers who requested support and this is what happened.
The official added that the government in Kabul believes the fire came from the Pakistani military base  and not from insurgents in the area.
Report: Pakistan gave &#8216;go-ahead&#8217; before NATO attack, says US &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## 53fd

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> Lies?
> The entire World knows that US or NATO versions are more credible & trustworthy than Pakistani version.
> So it appears that Pakistan was responsible for the death of it's soldiers.



Yes, just like the Iraqi WMDs were, & claims of Al-Qaeda Saddam links were 

Instead of trolling, can you answer these questions?



> And the US just realized this was the case? Why wasn't this said before? And btw, what are the names of these officials, & what authority do they have of speaking on the incident?

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## Major Shaitan Singh

Is it some kind of Joke going .... People are playing Innocent life.

*First thing First* 
Cancel all their stay permit in Pak Soil.
Block all trasportation
Restrict their access
Tie Radio locator in their Ankle
As soon the date expire arrest them and bargain for some hard cash.

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## 53fd

Already posted in the appropriate thread, no need to create a new thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...an-releases-details-about-nato-attack-26.html


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## 53fd

If this is true, then this is despicable. The Pakistani government & Army are shameless.

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## StandForInsaf

No need for further notices , 

just after 15 days arrest all amrikans and capture all equipments for research purpose , if they refuse to surrender bomb the base clear it and rebuild if again needed.

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## Devil Soul

Mods plzz delete/merge


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## 53fd

Shabz Nist said:


> Well ofcourse they are. The evidence is just EVERYWHERE. Dunno how a 'hardcore nationalist' like you could've missed that.



Post reported. This thread is not about me, please stick to the topic.

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## DarK-LorD

bilalhaider said:


> Yes, just like the Iraqi WMDs were, & claims of Al-Qaeda Saddam links were
> 
> Instead of trolling, can you answer these questions?


Everything will be clear once the investigations are complete.
Generally whenever any officials speak to media bodies they request them to withheld their names;moreover US is yet to complete the investigations.

But as WSJ is a renowned media body it is generally thought that they have well placed & credible sources.

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## 53fd

No one else is reporting it, so it could be sensationalist drama.


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## F.O.X

Black Widow said:


> It will worsen the scenario. More blood shed on Border. Pakistani soldiers are not match of Nato forces (In technical terms). In bravery they can be better.



In technical terms Taliban are not even close to NATO & yet NATO is losing against them . IN battle best equppment does not ensure your victory , its Courage & will to fight,

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## Fieldmarshal

*PAF vs ISAF/NATO: short comings and reality *


Now that that COAS has given orders to front line commanders to respond with full forces in case of any attack by isaf/nato. In any such eventuality isaf/nato will be backed by air assets both rotary providing CAS and fixed wing providing top cover. This is always is a nato/isaf SOP for all ground operations. But the fixed wing assets keep their distance until required. 
If the forward positions are able to shoot down 1 or a couple of rotary elements using sams than for sure the ac providing top cover will be pressed into CAS role or even worse more ac could be called for CAS and the ac providing top cover remain holding their pattern covering the operational airspace.
Nato/isaf has at its disposal a large variety of ac in afghanistan, some of which are.

fixed wing attack fighter ac:
F-15, F-16, Tornado, Rafael, Euro fighter, harrier

rotary (attack):
ah-64 apachie, ah-64 apachie long bow, lynx


Against this formidable array of weaponry we have just one platform that can stand up against the fixed wing threat of nato/isaf and that is JF-17 thunder. F-7pg and the rose mirages with their air to air capabilities unclear or limited cant be entrusted to do the job day in day out.
Now my question that i put forward to the members is that is the Thunder good enough to stand up against any of these platforms in air to air combat. even more serious question is that is the Thunder certified for air to air combat yet, as last that we heard was that it was going through trial regarding air to air weaponry. 
F-7pg have a limited bvr capability but with the arrival of awacs in PAF fleet can the bvr weapons be used to their full potential ?
The bvr capability of rose mirages? 
As you can see i have taken the PAF f-16 out of the equation is because the IFF on board PAF f-16 will recognize the isaf/nato ac as friendly and that will be the end of the story for them. The same might be the case for rose mirages. 

As the sh!t is about to hit the fan so we all need to be very clear as to where we stand.


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## Shabz Nist

Nirvana said:


> So They are Forcefully Occupying The Base !! Any Reactions from Pakistan Foreign Ministry ?



Pakistani establishment knows punching above their weight is a bad idea. Nothing will come out of it. Few demonstrations, few fatwas and blasts etc etc etc.........and then business as usual.

A similar event in the recent history of Pakistan would be the Raymond Davis incident.

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## indushek

Areesh said:


> Obviously Pakistan.



I have no such preconceived notion, till now i find the NATO side on the defensive as they haven't given any official version of what happened. My question was only rhetorical, perhaps i shouldn't have posted it but i did. I did so because i wanted to know what posters with better knowledge than me would say on this new version of story.

Just you know, No i don't suffer from blind hatred for Pakistan or Pakistanis, just because right now we are and have been enemies (at times) and adversaries at other times.

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## StandForInsaf

its not enough , put equipments / installations to jam all their radio / frequencies and anti air defense systems. end WOT foreign war and all kind of its co operations , its waste of money and HR .


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## Jon Snow

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> Is it some kind of Joke going .... People are playing Innocent life.
> 
> *First thing First*
> *Cancel all their stay permit in Pak Soil.*
> Block all trasportation
> Restrict their access
> Tie Radio locator in their Ankle
> As soon the date expire arrest them and bargain for some hard cash.



The problem is that they can cancel all the permits they want - USA will only leave when they want to - permits or no. Pakistan cannot force the US out. Same with air space - they can tell US to stop violating Pakistani airspace (even that will take some backbone) but do you really think they will be able to enforce it (by that I mean shooting down the next UAV or chopper that flies into Pakistani airspace and refuses to leave)

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## regular

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Is Afghanistan an enemy state ? Why to give civil transit to it?
> Afghan were so happy on the death of Pakistani soldiers , why should Pakistan feed them, as they grow nothing except drugs.
> 
> US will try to bully its way out but for a long war even they don't have any money.


Sir! ordinay Afghans don't feel happi on the death of our soldiers against US/NATO its those who are the US/NATO puppets and sellout agents...cuz they gotta show their loyalty to their white masterz.....otherwise their bosses gonna kickout the @$$z......

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## Mav3rick

Ganga said:


> Many people are asking how the NATO could not have known about the posts.One of the answers is that the attack was intentional.According to some analysts Pakistani troops often give covering fire to Taliban militants while they cross into Afghanistan to launch attacks on ISAF troops.This time however they decided to teach the Pakistanis a lesson by firing at their posts.This is one of the theories.


 
These 'analysts' usually target retarded or below average IQ folks so do not give a lot of thought to them. ISAF/NATO/Afghan/US forces that control the other side of the border have equipment that can monitor any movement and any/all incursions....they are not busy playing hide and seek with each other. The battlefield awareness of NATO/ISAF/US forces in the area is beyond your imagination.

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------




SR-71 BlackBird said:


> Lies?
> The entire World knows that US or NATO versions are more credible & trustworthy than Pakistani version.
> So it appears that Pakistan was responsible for the death of it's soldiers.


 
Ofcourse, murdering a million Iraqi's over WMD is really credible....just 1 example should be enough I guess?


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## Jon Snow

Fieldmarshal said:


> *PAF vs ISAF/NATO: short comings and reality *
> 
> 
> Now that that COAS has given orders to front line commanders to respond with full forces in case of any attack by isaf/nato. In any such eventuality isaf/nato will be backed by air assets both rotary providing CAS and fixed wing providing top cover. This is always is a nato/isaf SOP for all ground operations. But the fixed wing assets keep their distance until required.
> If the forward positions are able to shoot down 1 or a couple of rotary elements using sams than for sure the ac providing top cover will be pressed into CAS role or even worse more ac could be called for CAS and the ac providing top cover remain holding their pattern covering the operational airspace.
> Nato/isaf has at its disposal a large variety of ac in afghanistan, some of which are.
> 
> fixed wing attack fighter ac:
> F-15, F-16, Tornado, Rafael, Euro fighter, harrier
> 
> rotary (attack):
> ah-64 apachie, ah-64 apachie long bow, lynx
> 
> 
> Against this formidable array of weaponry we have just one platform that can stand up against the fixed wing threat of nato/isaf and that is JF-17 thunder. F-7pg and the rose mirages with their air to air capabilities unclear or limited cant be entrusted to do the job day in day out.
> Now my question that i put forward to the members is that is the Thunder good enough to stand up against any of these platforms in air to air combat. even more serious question is that is the Thunder certified for air to air combat yet, as last that we heard was that it was going through trial regarding air to air weaponry.
> F-7pg have a limited bvr capability but with the arrival of awacs in PAF fleet can the bvr weapons be used to their full potential ?
> The bvr capability of rose mirages?
> As you can see i have taken the PAF f-16 out of the equation is because the IFF on board PAF f-16 will recognize the isaf/nato ac as friendly and that will be the end of the story for them. The same might be the case for rose mirages.
> 
> As the sh!t is about to hit the fan so we all need to be very clear as to where we stand.



You guys only have about 2-3 sqds of a modern 4th gen plane (thunder) -whose capabilities are unclear. You guys will be wise to not engage the ISAF in any sort of combat.

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## Green Hornet

Jf-17 vs f-16s,f-15s, tornados, eurofighters????

Are you serious???


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## indushek

karan.1970 said:


> If this is indeed true, then What I suspect is the following 2 scenarios
> 
> 1. Pakistan forces were involved in fire attack on NATO 300 or so yards away. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to deny their involvement in the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the source of attack which turned out to be the Paksitani checkpost
> 
> 2. NATO forces came under attack from the vicinity of the checkpost from some militants. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to avoid any appearance of their involvement in the the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the area and Pakistani checkpost got caught in the fire storm.



In the first case, why would the PA be involved in the attack what purpose does it serve them?? militarily as many learned posters have said here they are night blind (weapons per se) and cannot do anything. Even if they were once the ground troops started attacking they wouldn't have been hanging around as they know the Americans would bring in air support which the PA on border doesn't have!!! 

There is another doubt i have, the apaches are one of the best heli's in the world and they would be equipped with proper GPS, hell even my mobile has it and can identify maps and all easily. How the hell did they miss the fact that they are in Pakistani airspace??

In the second scenario if the PA is not directly involved in the attack on NATO troops why would they deny the fact that their men are present in the checkposts?? This clearly doesn't make any sense karan. You better explain this clearly.

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## F.O.X

Come on people Seriously . ? This is the news from July 1 around 6 months back when after OBl raid the tensions were high .
So please research a little before you start posting .

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## IceCold

Irfan Baloch said:


> A better way will be that PAF flies CAP along the border that serves as a deterrent for NATO pilots from crossing the border again.
> 
> *Ground troops can also have dedicated air defence in case NATO ignores their calls and decides to replay the attack once more. But before all this, any incursion has to be reported to HQ so that the commanders can contact the NATO and avert the fight but if that fails (like it did last time) request the PAF to come for help and use the ground based defence systems to retaliate and give them a better fight than last time. That way NATO wont have anything to complain.*



Just one point sir regarding the above. Clearly NATO has no remorse over the killing of our soldiers and neither does the US of A. And this attack should is a clear example that when they attack, they consider Pakistan as an enemy and thus use full force that leaves little to no time to contact HQ and tell them we are under attack so that the HQ could contact NATO and tell them to avert. Shouldn't this be obvious to all parties by now that this attack was no mistake, it was deliberate so then why are we still thinking over the same lines that is to avert. Clearly we should now be prepared for not only a skirmish but maybe a possible conflict and this time our priories should not only be to just defend and avert the attack but possible shot down any intrusion without warning, capture the bastards and treat them as POW.

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## Rain

I am not a relavent person to reply. Every one in Pakistan( except some war hungry) know that Pakistan Army and air force are not built, to fight American or West, even they were in our backyard for over a decade, no serious attempt has been made to fight against them, reason is simple if we fight we will loose sooner of later, but for sure we will loose all world know this(depending on how we define victory).

One thing that comes to my mind that our military planers had made mistakes in Past, in 48, 65, 71, 99 in wars against India.

One need to plan for all scenarios without making assumptions like we did in past, and to me I dont see any serious planning to tackle threat from western borders.
For example looking at the footage of destroyed posts, one can easily understand they were poorly built, & impropery defended. How they fight terrorists in such situation, I feel sorry for brave sons who die every day. Our Top Generals care to less to protect the soldier at battlefields, they have to take war and soldiers lives seriously instead of their coorporate interests.

We can avoid the war with US simply enough by accepting Aghanistan is in their hands and they are master of it. let the Afghan deal with it. we need to focus on education, science, economy.

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## HANI

Green Hornet said:


> Jf-17 vs f-16s,f-15s, tornados, eurofighters????
> 
> Are you serious???:



Here comes another genius


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## pakistanitarzan

F.O.X said:


> Come on people Seriously . ? This is the new from July 1 around 6 months back when after OBl raid the tensions were high .
> So please research a little before you start posting .



Exactly and I noticed that right away! Please, for god sake, close this useless thread!


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## Omar1984

General Kayani's decision was expected:



> *"Officers were very angry," said one person who attended. "They are also under pressure from the soldiers, mid-level officers and the families of the victims who tell them: 'Why do you stand with people who kill our soldiers?'"*




AFP: NATO killings erode Pakistan appetite for peace


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## Edevelop

Green Hornet said:


> Jf-17 vs f-16s,f-15s, tornados, eurofighters????
> 
> Are you serious???



You never know. We might get J-11 and J-10s from China for emergency basis. If you don't know already, some of our pilots were training in Chinese J-11s in Pakistan.


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## OrionHunter

Considering the disadvantage the PAF has in terms of numbers and technology compared to NATO, it would be more prudent to employ anti aircraft assets like shoulder fired missiles, AA guns etc. Employing air assets is a bad idea. If PAF does get involved, a local skirmish could escalate to a new level, into a full blown conflict. 

*And that's what the Americans want, right? There's no need of falling into the trap!*

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## Areesh

F.O.X said:


> Come on people Seriously . ? This is the news from July 1 around 6 months back when after OBl raid the tensions were high .
> So please research a little before you start posting .



But to troll the date of news isn't important for Bharatis. Any day any time any where. A bharati would troll. No matter what happens.

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## IceCold

hellfire said:


> Horrible response from you? I think you all gave a very horrible response post OBL incident ie NONE!! Dont you think that by hitting your troops (posts of whose would have been known to US for sure) the US wants you to exactly retaliate? Well its time Pakistan understood that giving covering fire or firing on troops operating near IB against militants is not exactly a very nice way to show friendly feelings.
> 
> Pakistani troops regularly resort to firing when Indian troops are conducting search and destroy missions against militants close to LC in order to facilitate exfiltration/infiltration of the militants ... so am not very surprised that they fired on US troops and got a response in reverse.
> 
> However, last time when US forces had hit OBL, Kayani had declared realiation against any NATO troops crossing into their territory ... and what happened? Today also NATO air strike struck into your territory .... ! This is just for public consumption. US would love to see you hit back ......



You are right apart from the covering fire thing. The India Pakistan exchange cab be debatable and one can argue since we have always been rival but the same is not the case with the US and hence your assumption is invalid.
I agree with the part that OBL raid it was promised to give a reply and then this happened but so far nothing substantial has happened but you will also have to agree that no matter how much we want to avert a possible conflict, everybody has a certain limit and a respect. Clearly the army won't allow its image to be completely shattered in front of the public. Already its rock bottom. They will have to show something otherwise they will lose face completely and this is not something that they will allow to happen because army as an institution was seen as a highly decorated, professional institute in the country above everything and the respect it enjoyed because of that.
So far the allied forces have made a mockery out of our sovereignty and this does not sit well with the generals in isb so now 2 things may happen either the generals will keep doing this hulla huppa for public consumption and as a result of this will loose little respect of what is left or they will reply back and which could trigger a conflict. The chances of the latter happening is much more because of the reasons i explained above.


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## CorporateAffairs

cb4 said:


> We might get J-11 and J-10s from China





that dependence is your biggest mistake

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## Baby Leone

if it is true Pak security forces would **** those americans left in base.....

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------




F.O.X said:


> Come on people Seriously . ? This is the news from July 1 around 6 months back when after OBl raid the tensions were high .
> So please research a little before you start posting .



 when indians find any anti pakistani news they even dont bother to see the date in xcitement forget about the news being true or not  they just act like their govt nd media


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## Jango

Now the latest coming out is that after NATO was informed that they were doing a blue on blue, they temporarily stopped and returned, the Volcano post soldiers came for assessing the other post, communications broke down, and then NATO again went on a killing spree.

A tough stance was taken in the Corp Commanders meeting that day after the attack.

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## Veritas

cb4 said:


> You never know. *We might get J-11 and J-10s *from China for emergency basis. If you don't know already, some of our pilots were training in Chinese J-11s in Pakistan.



NATO/USAF already has F-22.

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## Jango

What a pointless thread.


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## Omar1984

F.O.X said:


> Come on people Seriously . ? This is the news from July 1 around 6 months back when after OBl raid the tensions were high .
> So please research a little before you start posting .



The Dawn news is from July.

The Urdu news is from December 2, 2011 (Today)

NATO Attack| Geo TV Network


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## Edevelop

CorporateAffairs said:


> that dependence is your biggest mistake



True. However, it is an option though. We did buy J-10s. Correct me if i am wrong, they are expected to get delivered around 2014-2015. Since we have paid the money for it, technically 36 of them are ours now. So as a customer, its our right to demand delivery sooner.

China will be more than happy. It has its own interests. Protecting Pakistan from NATO will keep them protected too


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## CorporateAffairs

cb4 said:


> True. However, it is an option though. We did buy J-10s. Correct me if i am wrong, they are expected to get delivered around 2014-2015. Since we have paid the money for it, technically 36 of them are ours now. So as a customer, its our right to demand delivery sooner.



Buddy do you seriously think its gonna workout? PAF vs USAF?

I dont think any AF in the world can take on USAF. 

War is not a solution.

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## Donatello

close this thread before the shyt hits the fan.

Also, it is in the wrong section.


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## Jango

Lets see on Dec 11. Yesterday, a team of Pakistani officials from Army, PAF, intelligence, customs and FIA visited Shamsi airbase.

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## Jango

Again some stupid and short sighted people think about going to war with ISAF and put these pointless threads.

Mods please close this thread.

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## F.O.X

Omar1984 said:


> The Dawn news is from July.
> 
> The Urdu news is from December 2, 2011 (Today)
> 
> NATO Attack| Geo TV Network



Yeh They messed up in excitement , there is no such news , currently USA cannot handle saying No in this matter .


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## Malik Usman

CorporateAffairs said:


> that dependence is your biggest mistake



The same kind of ideas Indian military was making in 1965 (considering the quantity of soldiers, weapons and technology)....and their general was saying that i will do breakfast in Lahore, after invading the Pakistan....and his dreams reamin with him in his grave................so never gave comments about Pakistan's military's capability.........you never know.....in exterme scanrios we might use our strategic assets.....Babur, Ghuari and Shaheen missiles to destory the runways and bases of NATO in afganistan....and once they will have no base they will have no way to run........Plus there will be open border for afghanistan....and then you know that what will happen.......when Pakistan's tribal peoples and Talibans in Afghanistan will join hands.......and if the war begins....they will all die here........if you think Pakistanis are afraid to fight them.......you are wrong......you must ask the NATO forces are they really have courage to fight like mans.....or do strikes like cowerds.


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## Edevelop

CorporateAffairs said:


> Buddy do you seriously think its gonna workout? PAF vs USAF?
> 
> I dont think any AF in the world can take on USAF.
> 
> War is not a solution.



Our pilots are one of the bests in dog fighting and USAF is not. Don't forget that we scored kills against Russian Air force and our F-16s defeated European Eurofighter. 

USAF is nothing and depends everything on technology. The 24 soldiers they killed were from gunship helicopters and that too 1-2 km past Afghan boarder. I would like to see them come closer... Their Stealth technology would be dumb and useless against us. These things are used for secret operations. When there is a full war going on, then you have everything prepared and everything is visible. We would have SAMs and anti aircraft guns ready by then.


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## Dr. NooB NinjA

Malik Usman said:


> The same kind of ideas Indian military was making in 1965 (considering the quantity of soldiers, weapons and technology)....and their general was saying that i will do breakfast in Lahore, after invading the Pakistan....and his dreams reamin with him in his grave................so never gave comments about Pakistan's military's capability.........you never know.....in exterme scanrios we might use our strategic assets.....Babur, Ghuari and Shaheen missiles to destory the runways and bases of NATO in afganistan....and once they will have no base they will have no way to run........Plus there will be open border for afghanistan....and then you know that what will happen.......when Pakistan's tribal peoples and Talibans in Afghanistan will join hands.......and if the war begins....they will all die here........if you think Pakistanis are afraid to fight them.......you are wrong......you must *ask the* NATO *forces are they really have courage to fight like mans.*....or do strikes like cowerds.



This question applies better on PA and the likes; dont you think??!! Atleast after what the NATO did.. Anyway, war is not a solution.. It brings destruction and human loss to both the sides..


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## CorporateAffairs

cb4 said:


> Our pilots are one of the bests in dog fighting and USAF is not. Don't forget that we scored kills against Russian Air force and our F-16s defeated European Eurofighter.
> 
> USAF is nothing and depends everything on technology. The 24 soldiers they killed were from gunship helicopters and that too 1-2 km past Afghan boarder. I would like to see them come closer... Their Stealth technology would be dumb and useless against us. These things are used for secret operations. When there is a full war going on, then you have everything prepared and everything is visible. We would have SAMs and anti aircraft guns ready by then.



Good, go ahead and take USAF head on, ATB


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## Areesh

As we can see Vcheng is banned from PDF which definitely points towards change of policy viz a viz USA.

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## MUHARIB

Malik Usman said:


> The same kind of ideas Indian military was making in 1965 (considering the quantity of soldiers, weapons and technology)....and their general was saying that i will do breakfast in Lahore, after invading the Pakistan....and his dreams reamin with him in his grave................so never gave comments about Pakistan's military's capability.........you never know.....in exterme scanrios we might use our strategic assets.....Babur, Ghuari and Shaheen missiles to destory the runways and bases of NATO in afganistan....and once they will have no base they will have no way to run........Plus there will be open border for afghanistan....and then you know that what will happen.......when Pakistan's tribal peoples and Talibans in Afghanistan will join hands.......and if the war begins....they will all die here........if you think Pakistanis are afraid to fight them.......you are wrong......you must ask the NATO forces are they really have courage to fight like mans.....or do strikes like cowerds.



Yeah while you do all this ISAF/NATO are gonna be having a beer chugging contest.


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## Mytime

cb4 said:


> You never know. We might get J-11 and J-10s from China for emergency basis. If you don't know already, some of our pilots were training in Chinese J-11s in Pakistan.



If its a matter of assumptions ,then why not assume that entire PLAAF will be at your disposal ... 

Fact is , PAF is as someone already replied that PAF is not built for war against US or NATO .


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## IceCold

cb4 said:


> You never know. We might get J-11 and J-10s from China for emergency basis. If you don't know already, some of our pilots were training in Chinese J-11s in Pakistan.



You cant count over something you dont have. China can give this, China can give that seriously people grow up. China is giving us nothing, maybe a few thunders for emergency basis but thats all about it.
The original thread started mentioned F-16s cant be used against the ISAF, that is also invalid. F-16s can very well be used against the US if push comes to shove. The F-16 thing has been debated before as well. The only disadvantage of using F-16s would be that since the americans know the jet inside out, they will try to exploit its shortcomings but that does not render it useless. A locked on AMRAAM would be equally dangerous to an F-15 pilot as it would be to an SU-30 MKI.

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## Edevelop

Indians will always have American complex... Try invading an impotent country and we will see how well you will turn out as a hero. 

The difference between India and Pakistan is experience. Pakistan has seen USAF for years and India has not seen much. You Indians don't have enough knowledge. You simply cannot deny that.

Someone from your side has mentioned F-22. If it is the best fighter jet, then how come it was downed in Balkans by an RPG? LMAOF, they don't have the money anyways so how will they pay its maintenance costs?

Yup watching Hollywood movies like Topgun and Independence Day has changed some of your views about USAF. The more you watch this B.S the more you look at them being superior. 

The fact is USAF is not trained well. If you don't know how that country works then i'm afraid you all don't know anything. Soldiers in U.S are hired with less training. They are either University students or Mexicans. Money attracts them. In fact, some go there cuz they can't pay their tuitons. 

Anyways, this thread is a bit stupid. We will see what we can do. Kindly, go back to your own forums and in the future, we don't really like to hear your advice unless there is a thread about Indians.


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## Devil Soul

COAS remarks about PAF misquoted: ISPR

Updated 1 hour ago



RAWALPINDI: A spokesman of ISPR said on Friday that remarks of the Chief of Army Staff (COAS) in Command Communiqué about PAF have been misquoted in a section of press. 

In this context COAS exact quote was, "the response could have been more effective if PAF had also joined in. However, it was no fault of PAF.

The timely decision could not be taken due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts and, therefore, lack of clarity of situation, at various levels, including the Corps Headquarters and GHQ", the Spokesman said.

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## StandForInsaf

Areesh said:


> As we can see Vcheng is banned from PDF which definitely points towards change of policy viz a viz USA.



All his latest posts were of strange bizarre logic.

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## Ambitious449

Everybody is aware about USAF'a vital assets. But can anybody throw a light on what consists in NATO Air force? And what will be PAF's Compatibility to NATO air force?


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## sohail.ishaque

You are more keen in posting Hina's pic then anything else....


zer_0 said:


>


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## longbrained

This week a high power diplomatic team of UAE had come to Islamabad and told Pakistan that they as the owner of the base want it to remain in American hands. Maybe UAE has got a heavy amount of money from Americans as rent and now they are not willing to give the money back to Americans. If that is the case then US will not leave the base until their rent money is returned to them.


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## Don Jaguar

Ab pachtaye kya jab chiriyan chug gaien khet!!!

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## IceCold

Ambitious449 said:


> Everybody is aware about USAF'a vital assets. But can anybody throw a light on what consists in NATO Air force? And what will be PAF's Compatibility to NATO air force?



Eurofighter and Rafale for starters. Rest everything the US has is at their disposal too.


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## Ambitious449

IceCold said:


> Eurofighter and Rafale for starters. Rest everything the US has is at their disposal too.



So they have best from both both of world. I don't think PAF have any chance against NATO Airforce. Miracles could happen in land war like Vietnam but in Air war air superiority is very much imported.


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## deckingraj

cb4 said:


> Indians will always have American complex... Try invading an impotent country and we will see how well you will turn out as a hero.
> 
> The difference between India and Pakistan is experience. Pakistan has seen USAF for years and India has not seen much. You Indians don't have enough knowledge. You simply cannot deny that.
> 
> Someone from your side has mentioned F-22. If it is the best fighter jet, then how come it was downed in Balkans by an RPG?
> 
> Yup watching Hollywood movies like Topgun and Independence Day has changed some of your views about USAF. The more you watch this B.S the more you look at them being superior.
> *
> The fact is USAF is not trained well*. If you don't know how that country works then i'm afraid you all don't know anything. Soldiers in U.S are hired with less training. They are either University students or Mexicans. Money attracts them. In fact, some go there cuz they can't pay their tuitons.
> 
> Anyways, this thread is a bit stupid. We will see what we can do. Kindly, go back to your own forums and in the future, we don't really like to hear your advice unless there is a thread about Indians.



Seriously???...Pardon my language but I am not sure based on what data you have come up with such nonsense...


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## Erhabi

Pakistan has taken measures to prepare for a possible attack by U.S. forces, Germanys Bild- Zeitung reported, citing a classified document by the U.S. governments Combined Joint Intelligence Operations Center.
*Pakistan has set up defensive positions in the border region with Afghanistan in response to an attack the countrys military sees as potentially imminent*, Bild cited the document as saying.
*Numerous anti-aircraft radar installations are in place to track low-flying vehicles, increasing Pakistans capability to spot helicopters and drones*, Bild said.
Afghanistan will suffer a civil war once the International Security Assistance Force leaves the country, Bild also reported, citing U.S. military intelligence.


Pakistan Prepares for U.S. Attack, Bild Reports, Citing Document - Bloomberg


....

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## Edevelop

deckingraj said:


> Seriously???...Pardon my language but I am not sure based on what data you have come up with such nonsense...



See my last post to get the answer.


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## pakdefender

Come Dec 11 , they will be kicked out .. this american offical can go **** himself


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## longbrained

RaptorRX707 said:


> SAM (ie. FD/FT-2000) is not designed for helicopters and LD-2000 is not effectives.
> 
> Only we need the response of PAF to destroy Apache. PAF must response immediately.



What are you saying? FD-2000 can take down a helicopter from 125 Km away. Go and read the FD-2000 specifications first. As for LD-2000 which supports FD-2000, it can take down a helicopter easy. Not only that but it has C-RAM and anti-Precision Guided ammunition capability, which basically means it can shoot down rockets, missiles, artillery shells and even mortars before they hit the ground at a safe distance. Here is more: http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/143634-blanket-air-defense-pakistan.html


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## IceCold

Ambitious449 said:


> So they have best from both both of world. I don't think PAF have any chance against NATO Airforce. Miracles could happen in land war like Vietnam but in Air war air superiority is very much imported.



If a conflict ever arises all aspects will be kept in mind. Basically the purpose of the PAF is to perform CAP missions so that NATO refrains from crossing over and spilling our blood but once things escalate then who knows where they will lead too.

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## indushek

Threads like these invite trolls the maximum and lead to banning , so please stop posting these kind of threads.


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## mjnaushad

indushek said:


> Threads like these invite trolls the maximum and lead to banning , so please stop posting these kind of threads.



So its a good thing.... Less trolling will be witnessed on other threads.

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## Marxist

cb4 said:


> *Someone from your side has mentioned F-22. If it is the best fighter jet, then how come it was downed in Balkans by an RPG? LMAOF, they don't have the money anyways so how will they pay its maintenance costs?*


 
wrong info ..it was F-117 not f-22


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## pakdefender

Glad to know that this act of war by American led NATO froces is being taken very seriously by military ... I've had the opertunity of reading a memo that a retired senior officer wrote to a serving commander in Pakistan Army which basically summed up as "Act now or be crushed like cockroaches" 

There is not an iota of doubt who the enemies of Pakistan are and we have to be ready against them on all front

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## TaimiKhan

President Camacho said:


> Some how I am more convinced that it was 300 meters. The border runs through the peaks in that area, and not through the valleys. In the video, the nearest peak line looked barely 200-300 yards away from the check posts, and the next link of peaks, past the valley, appeared about 5 miles away at least. But it was just a video, and I am not a dweller of that area - I may very well be at mistake.
> 
> But anyway, that does not matter to me, because whether 1 KM, or 2 KM or just 2 meters, whatever the distance was, I cannot figure out the reason for the Pakistani troops to open fire at combat helicopters. I do not know much about military tactics and firepower, but in my opinion it would be suicidal, unless you have proper air support. The Pakistani troops did not have that. So for the Pakistani troops to fire at the helicopters, when lacking any anti-ariel guns (Pakistan's stand is that they did not fire mortars at the helicopters, Americans say they did), would defeat common sense.
> 
> Having said that, the NATO forces deliberately taking on the Pakistani troops, and killing not one or two, but 2 dozen troops, and so swiftly, that was to jeopardize their position and leverage with Pakistan. And it did. So their attacking the Pakistani troops deliberately also beats common sense.
> 
> Taimi yar, you want me to drop the points of the other side, and completely believe your side. Come on, we should be checking the version of both the sides impartially, right? And the fact is, the NATO's version is not out yet. This is why in each and every of my post I am saying we are left to just speculate - unless, we buy ISPR's story wholeheartedly, and throw everything away. That won't be right man.



No one is forcing you to accept anything. I am speaking on the facts i see. 

Strange thing is, ISPR came out with a version,briefed the media in detail. 

Now on the US/NATO side, unnamed officials sitting thousands of miles away right in USA / Washington are giving statements to WSJ or other newspapers, but the people sitting in Kabul have no version. Doesn't that tells something. Why are unnamed persons in Washington giving their versions while NATO/ISAF can't say anything in Kabul even after this many days.

Why is it taking so long ?? They have videos of the assault, they have maps of border locations, they have communication recording, they have men/women who dealt with the situation right in Afghanistan, but unnamed officials speaking in Washington. That;s ridiculous. 

Till now,all the facts & figures go against the NATO. Plus i have cleary shown above how innocents getting chopped up by 30mm fire are considered as militants when contrary to that they were innocent civilians. Even then US army hid the fcts and lied. 

So with their past record how can we be sure they won't lie or be lying this time too.

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## Baby Leone

well Nato/US are not that dumb to open another chapter of Full war especially with a country like Pakistan who has 6 biggest army with respectable weopons and technology, overseas presence &Civil Society/Media, Good freinds in Asia, ME & Europe, they are not even able to deal with the insurgency in afghanistan forget about them fighting with Pakistan on front line as they know that Pakistan Army & Air Force will **** them in Afghanistan & the ppls of AF & Taliban are already fed up of US/NATO so Pakistan is in better position and can take really tough decisions which is the need of time...


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## Black Widow

F.O.X said:


> In technical terms Taliban are not even close to NATO & yet NATO is losing against them . IN battle best equppment does not ensure your victory , its Courage & will to fight,




My dear friend, Taliban is following Gurrila warfare, which a state army can't adopt. So please stop comparing state army with Gurilla fighters... and moreover NATO is not loosing. They came to nab OBL, they did.

Now there presence is just to avoid revival of Taliban. In technical term none of Indian subcontinent country can match NATO. 

having said that, I have clearly stated that PA is no weaker than NATO in terms of courage and dedication.


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## lem34

Unlikely americans will attack. Americans like situations where the odds are overwhelmingly in their favour, they are not known for tolerating suffering and death. However it is possible that they may launch more skirmish type of attacks. I think that there is a rogue element in american army that would like to avenge their failure in afghanistan and are using pakistan as a scapegoat

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## longbrained

We should kick them out exactly the way Iranians kicked the British ambassador out of Tehran. Also remember that UK showed its true face when BBC the mouth piece of UK government showed two anti Pakistan "documentaries" (Double cross and Backlash) on the day of the NATO attack.


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## Thor

Send a brigade with an armoured unit, they will quickly leave. The base is on Pak soil and can be leased to f ing Martians, Pak is the owner always as it is on it's soil. Let's see whether everything going on is real or a play on dec 11


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## Ambitious449

Mr Javed said:


> well Nato/US are not that dumb to open another chapter of Full war especially with a country like Pakistan who has 6 biggest army with respectable weopons and technology, overseas presence &Civil Society/Media, Good freinds in Asia, ME & Europe, they are not even able to deal with the insurgency in afghanistan forget about them fighting with Pakistan on front line as they know that Pakistan Army & Air Force will **** them in Afghanistan & the ppls of AF & Taliban are already fed up of US/NATO so Pakistan is in better position and can take really tough decisions which is the need of time...



Can you support your statements with infrastructure and asset comparison between NATO and PAF?


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## Baby Leone

Good Move by Pakistan but i hope they are not sleeping on eastern borders as well all know that US can Order india to attack Pakistan on easter side & obviously india will be more than appy to obey the boss.....

Hope US will not dare to attack Pakistan again after tht or world will face WWlll


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## salmakh84

Mr Javed said:


> if it is true Pak security forces would **** those americans left in base.....
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> when indians find any anti pakistani news they even dont bother to see the date in xcitement forget about the news being true or not  they just act like their govt nd media



Haha. You are still sleeping my friend. Pakistan cannot **** americans. we GAVE them the BASE for $$$ We are Killers for $$$. We cant kill our own master!

If you would have read the FIRST POST, you can see the time line.. News is TODAYS! But just to compare, a SIMILAR news is given from JUNE 2011..

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## T-Rex

*If the US refuses to vacate the base, the PPP government will fall, Kayani might have to say good bye to his job as well. It will be an interesting drama. The US will lose all its friends in Pakistan for sure, at least they won't dare to speak in favour of the US.*


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## CorporateAffairs

Malik Abdullah said:


> Pakistan has taken measures to prepare for a possible attack by U.S. forces, Germanys Bild- Zeitung reported, citing a classified document by the U.S. governments Combined Joint Intelligence Operations Center.
> *Pakistan has set up defensive positions in the border region with Afghanistan in response to an attack the countrys military sees as potentially imminent*, Bild cited the document as saying.
> *Numerous anti-aircraft radar installations are in place to track low-flying vehicles, increasing Pakistans capability to spot helicopters and drones*, Bild said.
> Afghanistan will suffer a civil war once the International Security Assistance Force leaves the country, Bild also reported, citing U.S. military intelligence.
> 
> 
> Pakistan Prepares for U.S. Attack, Bild Reports, Citing Document - Bloomberg....




Guys, tell you what? It is elections time and the current govt. knows that it is going out and not returning to power. Hence it is simply taking your attention away from polls to war and BS. 

US will never attack Pak neither Pak can respond to US attack.

So, forget all this crap and focus on elections and elect a able govt. and leader for a better and propser Pak.


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## Baby Leone

Ambitious449 said:


> Can you support your statements with infrastructure and asset comparison between NATO and PAF?




read the whole thread before poking nose in every issue....

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------




Dr. NooB NinjA said:


> No, he cannot..!!




well ur Dp says abt ur personality soo no ans...

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## mr42O

I was hearing NRK radio which is stat owned and they are saying that Pakistanies officers by mistake gave order to use air power and told NATO there were no Pakistani post in area. 

First off all this is 4th statment from NATO members. To Nato i suggest they meet do get agree about what lia they gona use before changing statment again and again.

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## Erhabi

pakdefender said:


> Glad to know that this act of war by American led NATO froces is being taken very seriously by military ... I've had the opertunity of reading a memo that a retired senior officer wrote to a serving commander in Pakistan Army which basically summed up as "Act now or be crushed like cockroaches"
> 
> There is not an iota of doubt who the enemies of Pakistan are and we have to be ready against them on all front




Yaar abhi bhi na ghairat ayi to kabhi nahi ayegi...we are more than 170 million...they cant mess with us n get away with it everytime..IMO its all Musharraf's fault...Americans ko boht free karlia tha General Sahab ne..n now the whole country is paying the price of his deeds.


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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> No one is forcing you to accept anything. I am speaking on the facts i see.
> 
> Strange thing is, ISPR came out with a version,briefed the media in detail.
> 
> Now on the US/NATO side, unnamed officials sitting thousands of miles away right in USA / Washington are giving statements to WSJ or other newspapers, but the people sitting in Kabul have no version. Doesn't that tells something. Why are unnamed persons in Washington giving their versions while NATO/ISAF can't say anything in Kabul even after this many days.
> 
> Why is it taking so long ?? They have videos of the assault, they have maps of border locations, they have communication recording, they have men/women who dealt with the situation right in Afghanistan, but unnamed officials speaking in Washington. That;s ridiculous.
> 
> Till now,all the facts & figures go against the NATO. Plus i have cleary shown above how innocents getting chopped up by 30mm fire are considered as militants when contrary to that they were innocent civilians. Even then US army hid the fcts and lied.
> 
> So with their past record how can we be sure they won't lie or be lying this time too.



Gun cams, Voice recorder, flight logs, mission briefings, all should be readily available.

We have not had a statement from the ISAF spokesman regarding this incident proper, but as you said, people in Virgina and Washington are anonymously giving reports to WSJ and NYT!!!


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## CorporateAffairs

goodness me


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## T-Rex

Mr Javed said:


> Good Move by Pakistan but i hope they are not sleeping on eastern borders as well all know that US can Order india to attack Pakistan on easter side & obviously india will be more than appy to obey the boss.....
> 
> Hope US will not dare to attack Pakistan again after tht or world will face WWlll



*If india attacks Pakistan on behalf of the US, india herself will be attacked from the north and the east, have no doubt about that.*


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## fd24

Mr Javed said:


> Good Move by Pakistan but i hope they are not sleeping on eastern borders as well all know that US can Order india to attack Pakistan on easter side & obviously india will be more than appy to obey the boss.....
> 
> Hope US will not dare to attack Pakistan again after tht or world will face WWlll



I agree with the last bit of your post Mr Javed - The consequences of all out hostility may result in a catpstrophic response - not good for anyone.
India will respect the views of the USA but i dont believe they will attack unless their sovreignty is violated. India also knows the result of an all out attack will result in disaster for all. Pakistan is not Afghanistan or Iraq. Pakistan is a bit more than that to chew - trust me!

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## Secur

Black Widow said:


> My dear friend, Taliban is following Gurrila warfare, which a state army can't adopt. So please stop comparing state army with Gurilla fighters... and moreover NATO is not loosing. They came to nab OBL, they did.


 Bro have you ever seen a country spend trillions and derail their economy just to nab a person ?  ... That is the most amusing American joke i have ever heard and sadly their naive people and even you believe it ... Is the killing of a single person the most important objective NATO sought to achieve in these 11 years ? ... What does it change on the ground ? There are still literally 1000's of people waiting to take place of OBL ... and about the revival of Taliban , you will be amazed to read the international reports about their presence in Afghanistan ... All this drama is being done to save face by shifting blame on Pakistan which will likely get them in more trouble if Russia decides to shut NDN too ... Its a great bargaining chip for European missile defense shield ... Lets see how events turn out ...

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## T-Rex

CorporateAffairs said:


> Guys, tell you what? It is elections time and the current govt. knows that it is going out and not returning to power. Hence it is simply taking your attention away from polls to war and BS.
> 
> US will never attack Pak neither Pak can respond to US attack.
> 
> So, forget all this crap and focus on elections and elect a able govt. and leader for a better and propser Pak.



*So, you don' want Pakistan to prepare to defend herself. What else can the enemies of Pakistan say?*


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## Jango

And how do the iced Norwegians, who could not even properly dispose off their mass murderer, make this assessment?

Not like they were involved in this incident, and there are also no statements from anybody in the ISAF/NATO regarding this.
While the PA is abundantly clear that fire first came from ISAF helis, and communications broke down.


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## longbrained

I doubt JF-17 being able to stand up to F-15, F-16 or Eurofighter. They might be able to take on Apache gunships but these gunships never operate in an area with out air cover provided by those fighters. The best option Pakistan has is to get strategic SAM batteries and point defense batteries from China, the FD-2000 and LD-2000.


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## Fieldmarshal

*This thread has nothing to do with india, so all indians members either contribute positively so that the thread is not derailed or shut the fu#@K up.*


this thread is very very relevant to our predicament right now. Just because it is asking hard questions and most who have replied above dont have the ans does not mean that it should be closed.
so stop being ostriches and smell the coffee.

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## Edevelop

*Afghanistan will suffer a civil war once the International Security Assistance Force leaves the country, Bild also reported, citing U.S. military intelligence.
*

Pakistan Prepares for U.S. Attack, Bild Reports, Citing Document - Bloomberg


....[/QUOTE]

Well Afghanistan will suffer a civil war once the International Security Assistance Force leaves the country because they now have been using Tajiks and Hazaras against Pashtoons.


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## Dr. NooB NinjA

> well ur Dp says abt ur personality soo no ans...



Ah, well you got me..!!


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## T-Rex

*It is regular CIA propaganda, they have their dogs in Scandinavia. *


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## longbrained

mr42O said:


> I was hearing NRK radio which is stat owned and they are saying that Pakistanies officers by mistake gave order to use air power and told NATO there were no Pakistani post in area.
> 
> First off all this is 4th statment from NATO members. To Nato i suggest they meet do get agree about what lia they gona use before changing statment again and again.



This is called media propaganda war. They are trying to muddy the waters so that general public in those countries know as little as possible about it. They are trying to turn the public opinion against Pakistan.

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## longbrained

In the anti Pakistan BBC documentaries "Double Cross" and "Backlash" a senior American official says clearly that US has already invaded two muslim nations and can certainly invade another one, referring to Pakistan. This is what is in their minds.

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## fd24

mr42O said:


> I was hearing NRK radio which is stat owned and they are saying that Pakistanies officers by mistake gave order to use air power and told NATO there were no Pakistani post in area.
> 
> First off all this is 4th statment from NATO members. To Nato i suggest they meet do get agree about what lia they gona use before changing statment again and again.



Yes i think Norway are very accurate with the facts - they are at the epicenter of Nato and USA lapdogs. There are going to be at least 24 different versions before the deadline date Nato have said for their investigation. The best lie out of the 24 will be then released to passify the world. We will without doubt use the paper they release their version on to wipe a part our body and flush it down the toilet.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------




longbrained said:


> This is called media propaganda war. They are trying to muddy the waters so that general public in those countries know as little as possible about it. They are trying to turn the public opinion against Pakistan.



I think you will find in the oxford english dictionary it is known as bull sh1t.

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## indushek

mjnaushad said:


> So its a good thing.... Less trolling will be witnessed on other threads.



Yeah for sure but better to have meaningful threads rather than these kind of threads isn't it? and i mean it for anybody irrespective of nationality.


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## longbrained

Veritas said:


> Bah! Positively means, that we say JF-17 is going to shoot the hell out of F-22? I have standards and above all morals.



Actually no one here said that JF-17 can shoot down F-22. But certainly good SAM's can shoot down F-22 and even the best SAM's are much cheaper than any fighter aircraft. SAM's is the answer to a large air force.


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## Edevelop

Veritas said:


> Bah! Positively means, that we say JF-17 is going to shoot the hell out of F-22? I have standards and above all morals.



Maybe it can. Is there a problem? Missiles on either side are more or less the same. When you are in an air fight, you have split seconds to decide what to do. Maybe our pilot can be positive in this type of skill


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## wisegoof

and their radars were also inactive as usual though NATO choppers spent one hour inside/on the border.......... no comments except disappointment again ............. we are just a paper lion..


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## Fieldmarshal

Veritas said:


> Bah! Positively means, that we say JF-17 is going to shoot the hell out of F-22? I have standards and above all morals.



positive means not to post crap and turning this tread into us vs them and posting for the sake of posting.
if u believe that jf-17 is not good or good than post facts in support of ur argument dont post sh!t, like u indians usually do.


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## Irfan Baloch

Alpha Omega said:


> Little too late, its not going to bring our brave dead soldier back to life. I still fail to understand why PAF was not called in when we were attacked. The raid lasted for more than an hour, what was PAF doing? What's the use of having AWACS and Gods gift to Pakistan, the block 52 F-16CD when we can't even protect our own men at war?
> *
> Mr Kiyani, you owe us an explanation*, specially to the families of those who died in vain.



I agree with you in the first para about why PAF remained inactive for 2 hours. so its not Kiyani who owes an explanation, he is not Air chief.
the lame excuse of communications being taken out delaying the PAF reaction is pathetic, thats what happens in war, the comms and recon systems go down and thats send an alarm bell to investigate. it was happening for 2 hours, enough time for PAF to make an appearence for the sake of appearence at least.

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## Bang Galore

F.O.X said:


> In technical terms Taliban are not even close to NATO & yet NATO is losing against them . IN battle best equppment does not ensure your victory , its Courage & will to fight,



Depends on your definition of victory. The Taliban hold no ground, have nothing of value & fight a guerrilla battle against superior forces. For them, not being wiped out is a victory. Doubt very much whether that standard can be used by a regular military. Pakistan will come worse off in any serious confrontation with NATO/U.S..Your only trump card is the threat of WMD. While it has worked very well for you vis-a-vis India; not sure that Pakistan wants to be threatening nuclear warfare with the U.S. Allowing individual commanders to "retaliate" only exposes Pakistan to the claim that the Pakistani soldiers fired first. The nature of the casualties in any new incident is unlikely to be any different from this attack. Gen Kayani's statement makes for good copy but I don't believe is meant to be taken seriously especially by those who might be on the firing line.


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## Saleem

@ Thor; an armoured brigade will be vaporized into burnt out hulks in 5 minutes by the USAF. come on, you are in the 21st century.


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## F.O.X

So the Time has come , when we will start to rebuild our self respect that we lost somewhere in WOT , we need to be prepared be it a skirmish or not , once we down 3-4 of their helis i will see how they attack again, we are neither Afg nor Iraq , we may not be strong enough to Attack but we are very much capable of defending ourselves. 

If Gov & Army does not reverse their decisions then 26 Nov will not only mark The New Islamic year but will also mark start of a new Pakistan.

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## mr42O

lol Kiyani saab kis ko bekuf bana rahe ho. Today ur masters said we will no leave shamsi air base i ask is ur TV RADIO and INTERNETT working since i can imagne reading new i did not knew since we did not hat electricity.

Duub kar maro jao.............................. ********

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## longbrained

I say we kick their ambassador out the way Iranians did with British ambassador:


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## Crypto

I don't understand what the *** is going on. Is all this part of a bigger game to defame armed forces by Zardari & co?

The day supreme court nullifies NRO and memogate commission summons Haqqani, we see this tragic incident on our western border and suddenly all attention is diverted from NRO/memogate (real issues) to armed forces. 

Well call me conspiracy believer but i think there is a link between NRO - memogate and this attack.


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## Xeric

Ahh..the press and its vices!

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## F.O.X

mr42O said:


> lol Kiyani saab kis ko bekuf bana rahe ho. Today ur masters said we will no leave shamsi air base i ask is ur TV RADIO and INTERNETT working since i can imagne reading new i did not knew since we did not hat electricity.
> 
> Duub kar maro jao.............................. ********



If you cannot contribute anything Constructive & meaningful to the topic & only knows how to Rant & Speak against others , please dont bother posting , not only you Ruin your image but you ruin the image of our country as well , you are currently in a public forum not in you Drawing room . 

Please at least think once before you post.

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## Riz

what will be ther orders from drones ? Are we going to shoot down these blood hungry mosquitoes or not ? If not then qudoos to u all for wasting time in this useless thread .....


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## longbrained

We must first send a strong message to these guys the same way Iranians sent the message by kicking British ambassador out:

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## Rafael

Echelon said:


> I don't understand what the *** is going on. Is all this part of a bigger game to defame armed forces by Zardari & co?
> 
> The day supreme court nullifies NRO and memogate commission summons Haqqani, we see this tragic incident on our western border and suddenly all attention is diverted from NRO/memogate (real issues) to armed forces.
> 
> Well call me conspiracy believer but i think there is a link between NRO - memogate and this attack.



To add to it, the latest American official's statement that PA themselves gave the go ahead for the attack, also points at the same direction.


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## cloud_9

> ISLAMABAD: *Pakistans military said on Friday a communications breakdown prevented its air force from engaging NATO aircraft when they attacked two border outposts and killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.*
> The November 26 strike near the Afghan border has sparked fury in Pakistan and further complicated US-led efforts to ease a crisis in relations with Islamabad and stabilise the region before foreign combat troops leave Afghanistan in 2014.
> In a statement on its public relations website, Pakistans military, which sets foreign and security policy, said that its response to the Nato strike could have been more effective had it been able to scramble its aircraft in time.
> The response could have been more effective if PAF (Pakistan Air Force) had also joined in. However, it was no fault of PAF, the statement said.
> The timely decision could not be taken due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts and, therefore, lack of clarity of situation, at various levels, including the Corps Headquarters and GHQ (General Headquarters).
> Exactly what happened at the Pakistani posts along an unruly and poorly defined border is still unclear.
> Pakistan said the attack was unprovoked, with officials calling it an act of blatant aggression. US officials, quoted in the Wall Street Journal on Friday, claimed Pakistani officials cleared the air strike without realising they had troops in the area.
> The US Embassy in Islamabad on Thursday released a video statement on YouTube by Ambassador Cameron Munter in which he expressed regret for the attack but stopped short of an apology. Both the United States and Nato have promised to investigate the incident, expressing regret on the deaths of Pakistani soldiers but the White House said it was premature to consider apologising when an investigation was still in its early stages.
> Pakistan has shown its anger over the attack by blocking supply routes for Nato forces in Afghanistan, and pulling out of an international conference in Germany next week on Afghanistan, depriving the talks of a central player in peace efforts.
> Western leaders have urged Islamabad to rethink its decision to boycott the conference, but Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said a reversal was unlikely.
> I dont think there is a very strong case to reconsider this decision at all, she told reporters on Friday. Pakistan has a long history of ties to militant groups in Afghanistan so it is considered to be uniquely positioned to help bring about a peace settlement, a top foreign policy and security goal for the Obama administration.



Pakistan planes would have engaged NATO in attack: Army


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## hunter_hunted

Pakistan is not going to invade Pakistan but USA and NATO is , in some time. So, Pakistan is just capable of Defending itself from foreign aggression and I believe these jets can do it at some level and there also a thing called missiles u can use them to destroy their bases. In case of full scale war all routes will be blocked for USA and then from where will they get their supplies 

May be through Russian territories but we all know they have threatened NATO that they will block the NATO routes if they didn't paid heed to their demands. And Russians will be more than happy to pay back USA and NATO for what they did to SOVIET Empire.


But at the end im not in favor of any war. Many lives will be lost but thats what banksters ruling this world wants, but if the USA and NATO did for what they came for, than Pakistani Nation will standing shoulder to shoulder with Pak army against the aggressors.


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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan planes would have engaged NATO in attack *
(Reuters)

2 December 2011, 1:24 PM

1/3 
ISLAMABAD - Pakistan&#8217;s military said on Friday a communications breakdown prevented its air force from engaging NATO aircraft when they attacked two border outposts and killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.
The Nov. 26 strike near the Afghan border has sparked fury in Pakistan and further complicated U.S.-led efforts to ease a crisis in relations with Islamabad and stabilise the region before foreign combat troops leave Afghanistan in 2014.

In a statement on its public relations website, Pakistan&#8217;s military, which sets foreign and security policy, said that its response to the NATO strike could have been more effective had it been able to scramble its aircraft in time.

&#8220;The response could have been more effective if PAF (Pakistan Air Force) had also joined in. However, it was no fault of PAF,&#8221; the statement said.

&#8220;The timely decision could not be taken due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts and, therefore, lack of clarity of situation, at various levels, including the Corps Headquarters and GHQ (General Headquarters).&#8221;

Exactly what happened at the Pakistani posts along an unruly and poorly defined border is still unclear.

Pakistan said the attack was unprovoked, with officials calling it an act of blatant aggression.

US officials, quoted in the Wall Street Journal on Friday, claimed Pakistani officials cleared the air strike without realising they had troops in the area.

The US Embassy in Islamabad on Thursday released a video statement on YouTube by Ambassador Cameron Munter in which he expressed regret for the attack but stopped short of an apology.

Both the United States and NATO have promised to investigate the incident, expressing regret on the deaths of Pakistani soldiers but the White House said it was premature to consider apologising when an investigation was still in its early stages.

Pakistan has shown its anger over the attack by blocking supply routes for NATO forces in Afghanistan, and pulling out of an international conference in Germany next week on Afghanistan, depriving the talks of a central player in peace efforts.

Western leaders have urged Islamabad to rethink its decision to boycott the conference, but Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said a reversal was unlikely.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t think there is a very strong case to reconsider this decision at all,&#8221; she told reporters on Friday.

Pakistan has a long history of ties to militant groups in Afghanistan so it is considered to be uniquely positioned to help bring about a peace settlement, a top foreign policy and security goal for the Obama administration.


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## salmakh84

T-Rex said:


> *If the US refuses to vacate the base, the PPP government will fall, Kayani might have to say good bye to his job as well. It will be an interesting drama. The US will lose all its friends in Pakistan for sure, at least they won't dare to speak in favour of the US.*



-ISPR will tell us that USA has vacated the base (which they won't)
-Members here will chant pro army slogans, #1 army in the world. #2 Airforce in the world bla bla (mind you, we got bombed for 2 HOURS and our airforce didn't move a muscle... 2 hours!! A passenger plane can go from Karachi to Islamabad in 2 hours..)
-Rehman Malik will come and say "No Americans are in Shamsi. I will resign if someone proves otherwise"
-People will blame zardari and things will move on.. Pakistan will still be an ALLY in WOT

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## POPS

Jon Snow said:


> The problem is that they can cancel all the permits they want - USA will only leave when they want to - permits or no. *Pakistan cannot force the US out. Same with air space *- they can tell US to stop violating Pakistani airspace (even that will take some backbone) *but do you really think they will be able to enforce it *(by that I mean shooting down the next UAV or chopper that flies into Pakistani airspace and refuses to leave)



thats proposturos , what the hell -why i mean pakistan is a independent & sovrieghn nation with neuclear wepons & i dont see any reasone for US to stay if pakistan wants them out


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## opps

*Pakistan Was Consulted Before Fatal Hit, U.S. Says*
*Deadly Border Strike Came After Forces Were Told Area Was Clear of Pakistani Troops, Officials Say
*

WASHINGTON*Pakistani officials at a border coordination center gave the go-ahead to American airstrikes that inadvertently killed 24 Pakistan troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, according to U.S. officials briefed on the preliminary investigation.*

U.S. officials, giving their first detailed explanation of the worst friendly-fire incident of the 10-year-old war in Afghanistan, said an Afghan-led assault force that included American commandos were hunting Taliban militants when they came under fire from an encampment along the Afghan-Pakistan border.

*The commandos thought they were being fired upon by militants. But the assailants turned out to be Pakistani military personnel who had established a temporary campsite, U.S. officials said*.

According to the initial U.S. account from the field, the commandos requested airstrikes against the encampment, prompting the team to contact a joint border-control center to determine whether Pakistani forces were in the area, a U.S. official said.

The border-control center is manned by U.S., Afghan and Pakistani representatives who are supposed to share information and head off conflicts. But the U.S. and Afghan forces conducting the Nov. 26 commando operation hadn't notified the center in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, the official said.

When called, the *Pakistani representatives at the center said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the Americans to conduct the airstrikes,* the U.S. officials said.

Officials in Islamabad couldn't be reached to comment on the U.S. allegations. Pakistan repeatedly has denied its forces fired on the Americans.

*Pakistan doesn't have veto authority over strikes along the border, U.S. officials said. But the North Atlantic Treaty Organization makes contact with the center to make sure its operations don't put Pakistani troops or aircraft in the line of fire.*

U.S. officials acknowledge there were errors made on both sides in the incident, which occurred in the Mohmand tribal region, a lawless border area that abuts Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province. They have called the Pakistani deaths a terrible accident. "There were lots of mistakes made," the official said. "There was not good situational awareness to who was where and who was doing what."

To prevent conflicts, officials working in the border-control center need to know whether NATO forces are planning operations in the border area. That allows the Pakistanis to notify its forces that the U.S. and Afghan forces would be operating there.

But U.S. officials have in the past expressed reservations about notifying the Pakistanis about operations, concerned the missions' details could leak out.

The U.S. officials cautioned the latest account is based mainly on interviews with members of the commando team and could change as more information is gathered.

A formal report on the incident is due to be completed by U.S. military investigators by Dec. 23. Officials said that investigation could incorporate overhead imagery and information collected from the aircraft that struck the Pakistani position.

"Our view on this will not be complete until we've completed the investigation," a senior official said.

The incident resulted in another major setback to U.S.-Pakistan relations. In response, Pakistan has pulled out of an international conference on the Afghan war in Bonn, Germany, next week. Islamabad also has closed border crossings used by the U.S. and its NATO allies to bring in supplies for troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

Pakistani officials said earlier this week the attack on their base, known as Volcano, began just after midnight. About 50 minutes after the air assault began, Pakistani officials reached the NATO command in Afghanistan and told officials to call off the strikes, they said.

In addition to the strike on the border base, Pakistani officials said reinforcements trying to aid the stricken base also were hit by the airstrikes.

Pakistani military personnel in a second base began firing at the American helicopters. According to the Pakistani account, the helicopters flew off, then returned and struck the second post.

A senior Pakistani military officer said it was impossible for the U.S. not to know it was firing at Pakistani military bases.

U.S. officials countered that the Pakistani positions were more like makeshift campsites than established military bases. A U.S. official said that because the Taliban and Pakistani military use some of the same weaponry, it was difficult to tell who was firing at the assault force.

"There was absolutely no malicious, deliberate attack on the Pakistani military posts," a U.S. defense official said.

Other American officials said the Pakistani military should have known from the presence of helicopters used to ferry in the combined U.S.-Afghan commando force that Americans were in the area.

"*If you hear American helicopters why would you lob mortars and machine gun fire at them? The Pakistanis can say we thought it was insurgents, except for the fact that the Taliban doesn't have helicopters,"* said the U.S. official.

The White House has decided, at least for now, against having President Barack Obama issue a video message offering condolences for the Pakistani deaths, officials said. The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan and other State Department officials had recommended such a video message to try to ease tensions between Washington and Islamabad over the incident.

But other officials argued that it was premature for Mr. Obama to intervene so publicly given continued uncertainty about what exactly transpired.

Republican candidates for the White House often accuse Mr. Obama of being too quick to apologize for U.S. actions.

"There was, obviously, no apology, and there was an expression of condolences," said White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, noting that the investigation into the incident was "at the early stages."



Pakistan Cleared Fatal Hit, U.S. Says - WSJ.com

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## F.O.X

longbrained said:


> We must first send a strong message to these guys the same way Iranians sent the message by kicking British ambassador out:



If only things were this easy .

We are not Iran we do not have Rich oil Reserves that world depends on , if we kick US ambassador they will kick ours , and then the Trade will Stop , after that US will use its influence over EU witch may effect our 50% Trade . our Economy is already in shackles we cannot have anymore shock to it .

So We should not let our Emotions control us , this is what our enemy wants we should use our head & think of the Best way .

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## T-Rex

Bang Galore said:


> Depends on your definition of victory. The Taliban hold no ground, have nothing of value & fight a guerrilla battle against superior forces. For them, not being wiped out is a victory. Doubt very much whether that standard can be used by a regular military. Pakistan will come worse off in any serious confrontation with NATO/U.S..Your only trump card is the threat of WMD. While it has worked very well for you vis-a-vis India; not sure that Pakistan wants to be threatening nuclear warfare with the U.S. Allowing individual commanders to "retaliate" only exposes Pakistan to the claim that the Pakistani soldiers fired first. The nature of the casualties in any new incident is unlikely to be any different from this attack. Gen Kayani's statement makes for good copy but I don't believe is meant to be taken seriously especially by those who might be on the firing line.



*The americans would say the same thing. According to you and your american friends in the battle field Pakistan should debate who fired first while Pakistani soldiers stand at the receiving end of the so-called friendly fire. You want the americans to continue their killings without any casualty on their side. Now, that was very clever of you.*

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## F.O.X

Will you STOP posting every news in a new thread , if you look around you will find that it has already been posted .

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## salmakh84

F.O.X said:


> If you cannot contribute anything Constructive & meaningful to the topic & only knows how to Rant & Speak against others , please dont bother posting , not only you Ruin your image but you ruin the image of our country as well , you are currently in a public forum not in you Drawing room .
> 
> Please at least think once before you post.



He didn't ruin Pakistan's image. We ALL Pakistanis have already done that. He is merely stating the truth, which you find bitter.
Tell me, is there a LIE in his post? For 2 hours PAF was sleeping, COAS was sleeping and now he is issuing stupid statements which are not helping either..

They think they are playing a double game... sab ko baywaqoof bana rahay hain.. In fact they are ones being played..


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## Devil Soul

already posted here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/143902-pakistan-releases-details-about-nato-attack.html


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## longbrained

F.O.X said:


> If only things were this easy .
> 
> We are not Iran we do not have Rich oil Reserves that world depends on , if we kick US ambassador they will kick ours , and then the Trade will Stop , after that US will use its influence over EU witch may effect our 50% Trade . our Economy is already in shackles we cannot have anymore shock to it .
> 
> So We should not let our Emotions control us , this is what our enemy wants we should use our head & think of the Best way .



Alas. We should build our economy so strong that we do not remain subservient to these colonialists. Build copper mines and increase trade with China, Iran and Turkey. Alas, it is going to take time.


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## Imran Khan

they just don't have any shame nor humanity simply

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## Secur

and yeah the Americans never went to the moon ... BTW dont we all love these conspiracy theories ?

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## salmakh84

longbrained said:


> I say we kick their ambassador out the way Iranians did with British ambassador:



How do you twist the facts? IT WAS THE OTHER WAY ROUND

Although I support IRAN over the GORAs, the iranian students attacked UK embassy. UK expelled Iranian Diplomat and Closed their OWN embassy. Iran even APOLOGISED for the event! Iran apologizes for embassy protests - UPI.com


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## niazifighter

BATMAN said:


> Pakistani posts are in bad condition because ghadari is not issuing funds for WOT against TTP.
> I wonder what is the point in not equipping our soldiers to fight against terrorists.
> I agree govt. shall allocate huge funds to face bharti sponsored TTP.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 AM ----------
> 
> 
> i couldn't figure it out why army and army supporter lie repeatedly. lie is the only solace which you people go for
> pakisrtani posts are in bad condition because america has suspended the 700 million tranche of military support because of pakistan army intransigence about their covert operations pakistani defence minister is on record in saying that pak can't keep their soldiers on border unless military aid is replenished
> 
> about TTP and india i have only one thing to say if pakistan officially believes india is helping TTP then they should immediately expel indian high commissioner from islamabad and also deny their airspace which is infact in use of india to ferry people and goods to afghanistan. reality is different and TTP india relation is a gimmick


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## T-Rex

F.O.X said:


> If only things were this easy .
> 
> We are not Iran we do not have Rich oil Reserves that world depends on , if we kick US ambassador they will kick ours , and then the Trade will Stop , after that US will use its influence over EU witch may effect our 50% Trade . our Economy is already in shackles we cannot have anymore shock to it .
> 
> So We should not let our Emotions control us , this is what our enemy wants we should use our head & think of the Best way .



*It's true that Pakistan does not have rich oil reserve but Saudi Arabia does. Just as the US would use its influence on the Europeans Pakistan should use her influence on the Saudis to counter any US move. Saudis depend heavily on Pakistan for security.*


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## Fekay

Propaganda being caught redhanded... total BS!

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## Crypto

Rafael said:


> To add to it, the latest American official's statement that PA themselves gave the go ahead for the attack, also points at the same direction.



It sure does. 
From political perspective PPP is in deep **** since the NRO decision got overruled - all the dirty politicians who were under NRO shade will have all their previous cases re-opened. That points to only one thing, either there will be elections in the very near future or assembly will get dissolved by push or pull. 
Supreme court can ask army to intervene if current gov doesn't comply, at the same time the memo from zardari to US has put PPP further down the drain and their coalitions will probably bail out (not very likely) leaving PPP without enough MNA's. 

Only if Zardari can somehow convince the yanks that he will deliver what he promised in memo can change the situation in somewhat different direction. Remember one of the point in memo was - the replacement of all high ranking generals. And current fiasca re Haqqani indicates Gov knew about OBL raid whilst army was kept in the dark. So Army and Judiciary are definitely not happy with PPP at the moment. 

One of the tactics by Zardari & co to defame armed forces and try to steer away from NRO/memo storm.


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## Navy SEAL Sniper

My Views:

1. Pakistan is in no postion in terms of financial or military strength to stand up to the US or its allies
2. US will most likely NOT attack as it does not have any justification in the eyes of the media / global general public
3. The present government will never stand up against US
4. First Osama's termination within the boundries of Pakistan and now NATO attack. Pakistan's ruling politicians must muster up a drama to tell the public that it cares so this military exercise.

Whatever the case is Allah o' Akbar !!

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## illusion8

T-Rex said:


> *It's true that Pakistan does not have rich oil reserve but Saudi Arabia does. Just as the US would use its influence on the Europeans Pakistan should use her influence on the Saudis to counter any US move. Saudis depend heavily on Pakistan for security.*



A diplomatic offensive from all quarters by Pakistan is needed. The Foreign ministry needs to step it up and get the ball rolling.

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## longbrained

salmakh84 said:


> How do you twist the facts? IT WAS THE OTHER WAY ROUND
> 
> Although I support IRAN over the GORAs, the iranian students attacked UK embassy. UK expelled Iranian Diplomat and Closed their OWN embassy. Iran even APOLOGISED for the event! Iran apologizes for embassy protests - UPI.com



Iran never had an ambassador in UK to begin with. Britain had an ambassador to Iran and he was kicked out by Iran's parliament and later was thrashed by students. So I guess you are mistaken. The Iranian diplomats without any ambassador in UK were expelled in retaliation and it was not UK that initiated the process. I was talking about the ambassador, go and read my post.


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## niazifighter

pakistan army has always lied about america, american presence in pakistan and their bases. according to information minister america also has base in pasni balochistan and yes they are at helms in jacobabad ISPR still in denial 
shame pakistan army

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## longbrained

illusion8 said:


> A diplomatic offensive from all quarters by Pakistan is needed. The Foreign ministry needs to step it up and get the ball rolling.



Yeah, only if our foreign minister was not more into hand bags and make up accessories.


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## T-Rex

salmakh84 said:


> -ISPR will tell us that USA has vacated the base (which they won't)
> -Members here will chant pro army slogans, #1 army in the world. #2 Airforce in the world bla bla (mind you, we got bombed for 2 HOURS and our airforce didn't move a muscle... 2 hours!! A passenger plane can go from Karachi to Islamabad in 2 hours..)
> -Rehman Malik will come and say "No Americans are in Shamsi. I will resign if someone proves otherwise"
> -People will blame zardari and things will move on.. Pakistan will still be an ALLY in WOT


*
Don't tell me that you are a greater skeptic than I am, but take my word for it, this time Zardari or his PPP government won't be able to get away with such an act. It won't be too difficult for their political foes to expose the truth to the public and then all hell will break lose on them. So, I'm pretty sure the PPP government won't try anything like that. Kayani has given explicit orders to his troops to retaliate if they come under fire, ask yourself why. Do you think Kayani has given this order willingly? No, not at all, it's all circumstances. Circumstances make dog eat dog.*

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## Secur

Areesh said:


> As we can see Vcheng is banned from PDF which definitely points towards change of policy viz a viz USA.


 He is just one thankless person who is delusion-ed by the luxury life of USA to the extent that he speaks bullshit about his own country and cant post a comment without a mention of the great country USA ... Check all his posts and you will find him going round and round in circles , never sticking to topic , loads of crap speculation , anti Pakistan crap and ofcourse the mention of the greatest country in the world USA - democracy , human rights and freedom of speech ... Hallucinating Vcheng in pursuance of the American dream

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## F.O.X

salmakh84 said:


> He didn't ruin Pakistan's image. We ALL Pakistanis have already done that. He is merely stating the truth, which you find bitter.
> Tell me, is there a LIE in his post? For 2 hours PAF was sleeping, COAS was sleeping and now he is issuing stupid statements which are not helping either..
> 
> They think they are playing a double game... sab ko baywaqoof bana rahay hain.. In fact they are ones being played..



Were you there when this was happening ? do you know the circumstances & the ground Realities ? Let me tell you No you dont . so stop believing every thing that is out in the media & sometimes think yourself too . 

What do you think would have happened if PAF was scrambles to attack the invaders ? those Helis were just 1.5km inside Pak territory once they realize that jets are coming their way they would have quickly moved back in Afg PAF would have shot them down there is no question in that but it would have been inside Afg territory and it would have created a bigger mess then it already has & on top of that it would have give NATO/US a reason to bomb the hell our of Pakistan posts all along the border .

You see War is not simple , These are not the time when Two Forces stand in front of each other with swords & start fighting & the end of the day one was left standing . Now a days Wars are fought more fought covertly then openly . if you do not trust your leaders no one will trust you.

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## POPS

Secur said:


> He is just one thankless person who is delusion-ed by the luxury life of USA to the extent that he speaks bullshit about his own country and cant post a comment without a mention of the great country USA ... Check all his posts and you will find him going round and round in circles , never sticking to topic , loads of crap speculation , anti Pakistan crap and ofcourse the mention of the greatest country in the world USA - democracy , human rights and freedom of speech ... Hallucinating Vcheng in pursuance of the American dream


hi secur i have question what according to you will be the logical end (i mean possible conclusion) of this episode ?


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## T-Rex

longbrained said:


> Yeah, only if our foreign minister was not more into hand bags and make up accessories.


*
As far as I know she is just another of those stooges raised in Pakistan by uncle sam. So I wouldn't count on her assistance in this regard.*


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## Obambam

Aryan_B said:


> *Unlikely americans will attack*. Americans like situations where the odds are overwhelmingly in their favour, they are not known for tolerating suffering and death. However it is possible that they may launch more skirmish type of attacks. I think that there is a rogue element in american army that would like to avenge their failure in afghanistan and are using pakistan as a scapegoat



Americans are trying to tease, shame and test the water.


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## longbrained

Obambam said:


> Americans are trying to tease, shame and test the water.



Yeah, maybe it is just a game of will power. Kind of like who blinks first. Skirmishes and stuff to shame us and make us doubt ourselves and our capability.


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## Mav3rick

hellfire said:


> Horrible response from you? I think you all gave a very horrible response post OBL incident ie NONE!! Dont you think that by hitting your troops (posts of whose would have been known to US for sure) the US wants you to exactly retaliate? Well its time Pakistan understood that giving covering fire or firing on troops operating near IB against militants is not exactly a very nice way to show friendly feelings.
> 
> Pakistani troops regularly resort to firing when Indian troops are conducting search and destroy missions against militants close to LC in order to facilitate exfiltration/infiltration of the militants ... so am not very surprised that they fired on US troops and got a response in reverse.
> 
> However, last time when US forces had hit OBL, Kayani had declared realiation against any NATO troops crossing into their territory ... and what happened? Today also NATO air strike struck into your territory .... ! This is just for public consumption. US would love to see you hit back ......


 
When India is concerned things are very different because we are not 'allies', we are not even 'friends', we can hardly tolerate the existence of each other because of Kashmir, water and some other minor issues that can be worked out but have not yet been worked out. But the US/NATO are supposedly our allies! 

Had this been done by India you can well imagine the response but why should we continue to accept this from our 'allies'? Honestly man, both our countries have conducted operations near the border and never once have we had such an accident with each other so how does the US make mistakes and this often at that?


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## Safriz

So its "Full time Badmaashi" from USA?

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## OrionHunter

wisegoof said:


> and their radars were also inactive as usual though NATO choppers spent one hour inside/on the border.......... no comments except disappointment again ............. we are just a paper lion..


Exactly what happened after the Osama incident! There were questions raised about the failure of radars or as some reports mentioned that radars weren't deployed in the area. 

The PAF/AD then said that corrective measures will be taken to avoid such incidents of intrusion in future. It seem nothing has changed and it's business as usual. It seems lessons aren't being learnt and I daresay that intrusions will continue to occur.

However, it must be realised that picking up low flying aerial targets by radar in the terrain obtaining in the AFPAK region is extremely difficult due to ground clutter. The efficacy of radars in those areas is therefore suspect. CAPs (Combat Air Patrols) is again not a viable solution. What then, as far as Early Warning is concerned? Probably covert mobile observation posts with secure communications well inside Afghanistan territory? But that's easier said than done!


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## Thor

Saleem said:


> @ Thor; an armoured brigade will be vaporized into burnt out hulks in 5 minutes by the USAF. come on, you are in the 21st century.



Who said anything about the US air force. The Shamsi airbase is on Pak soil, and as such the armoured unit is there to provide protection and threat of force. The US will not risk attacking the unit with air force whilst on Pak soil, they will be lynched and they know the fall out. It is a big step for he US to take by attacking openly the units going to Shamsi airbase. Ground realities are different. 

If you are saying that the US is the US and as such we can do nothing. Then you may as well start teaching your children about how superior the US is and how we should shine their shoes from now on ened, because that sort of talk shows nothing more then inferiority.........

This whole episode does bring one thing to light......... The Taliban for the sake of honour and principle took on the world superpower to hold its principles and refuse to handover anyone without evidence being bought to them. And they had every right as they were the rulers of most of Afghanistan. The US couldn't use the excuse of negotiating with such a regime they did not recognise as they themselves are admitting negotiating with the Taliban with Unicol over the oil pipeline. (Ohh, by the way, this is the same Unicol Hamid Karzai used to work for). They went to war and are still fighting today.......... Pakistan on the other hand sided with the US and went to war against the Taliban, and todfay the ally of Pakistan is having a field day by bombing Pakistan, setting it on a path of suicide and destruction, and the sheer arrogance of even refusing to apologise even now............. that is what they think of Pakistan.............. I recall the US issueing an apology to India when the ex-president Abdul Kalam was frisked at the US airport, and here, 24 soldiers of its ally are murdered and two fingers get stuck up by them.........reminds me of the US Senator comment - "Pakistanis will sell their mother for dollars"..........those words are holding good today and biuting back well..........well done Musharaf...........well done Pakistan

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## Safriz

and with this refusal..we are back to 1947 when Colonial power ruled us...Today its the same

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## StandForInsaf

salmakh84 99% and niazifighter 85% posts are anti Pakistan , i doubt they are false flagers.


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## StandForInsaf

salmakh84 said:


> Haha. You are still sleeping my friend. Pakistan cannot **** americans. we GAVE them the BASE for *$$$ We are Killers for $$$. We cant kill our own master!*
> 
> If you would have read the FIRST POST, you can see the time line.. News is TODAYS! But just to compare, a SIMILAR news is given from JUNE 2011..



hohoho hold just make things clear they might be ur masters not mine , slave mentality idiot.


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## Bill Longley

> It was clear from General Nadeems briefing that there was misleading information being provided to the Pakistan military from the start. Just before the attack, a Pakistani officer at the regional tactical center was informed by an American sergeant that their special forces had received indirect fire from Gora Pai, located some 15 kilometres away from Volcano post. And after 7 minutes, a woman officer informed him that the fire had, in fact, come from Volcano, which had been hit in retaliation.


âUnprovokedâ: DGMO gives details of aerial assault &#8211; The Express Tribune
NATO AND US IS LIEING. NO THEY ARE SHAMELESSLY TRYING TO BLAME THEIR INTENSIONAL KILLING ON AGGRIEVED PARTY
Shame less liers they are


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## OrionHunter

Omar1984 said:


> Shamsi Airbase is Pakistan's property not America's property.


Sorry, you may have your facts wrong. Shamsi base was NOT Pakistan's property! The airfield was *leased to the UAE* by Pakistan and was used for years by the rich Arab sheiks from Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries for falconry trips. 

*Pakistan Air Chief Rao Qamar Suleman had also disclosed that Pakistans Shamsi Air Base is under the control of United Arab Emirates, not in the control of Pakistan Air Force while briefing a joint in-camera session of Pakistan parliament on 13 May 2011.*

However, it is apparent that the lease may have now been cancelled as the UAE has not impressed upon Pakistan to review its decision of asking the United States to withdraw from Shamsi Base. So, as things stand, the US may have to vacate Shamsi by 11 Dec 2011 after all. Sources say that U.S. planning is under way to leave the base by the scheduled date. 

According to U.S. government sources, the United States has spent months preparing for a possible eviction from the Shamsi base by building up other drone launching and staging capabilities inside Afghanistan. Vacating the base was seen more as an inconvenience rather than a critical blow to drone operations which the United States also conducts from Afghanistan and possibly elsewhere.


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## Cheetah786

ISLAMABAD: Pakistans military said on Friday a communications breakdown prevented its air force from engaging NATO aircraft when they attacked two border outposts and killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

The November 26 strike near the Afghan border has sparked fury in Pakistan and further complicated US-led efforts to ease a crisis in relations with Islamabad and stabilize the region before foreign combat troops leave Afghanistan in 2014.

In a statement on its public relations website, Pakistans military, which sets foreign and security policy, said that its response to the Nato strike could have been more effective had it been able to scramble its aircraft in time.

The response could have been more effective if PAF (Pakistan Air Force) had also joined in. However, it was no fault of PAF, the statement said.

The timely decision could not be taken due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts and, therefore, lack of clarity of situation, at various levels, including the Corps Headquarters and GHQ (General Headquarters).(This changes every thing now that i no why the Air force didn't do its job cause they were incompetent oh i mean communication failure  )

Exactly what happened at the Pakistani posts along an unruly and poorly defined border is still unclear.

Pakistan said the attack was unprovoked, with officials calling it an act of blatant aggression. US officials, quoted in the Wall Street Journal on Friday, claimed Pakistani officials cleared the air strike without realizing they had troops in the area.

The US Embassy in Islamabad on Thursday released a video statement on YouTube by Ambassador Cameron Munter in which he expressed regret for the attack but stopped short of an apology. Both the United States and Nato have promised to investigate the incident, expressing regret on the deaths of Pakistani soldiers but the White House said it was premature to consider apologizing when an investigation was still in its early stages.

Pakistan has shown its anger over the attack by blocking supply routes for Nato forces in Afghanistan, and pulling out of an international conference in Germany next week on Afghanistan, depriving the talks of a central player in peace efforts.

Western leaders have urged Islamabad to rethink its decision to boycott the conference, but Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said a reversal was unlikely.

I dont think there is a very strong case to reconsider this decision at all, she told reporters on Friday. Pakistan has a long history of ties to militant groups in Afghanistan so it is considered to be uniquely positioned to help bring about a peace settlement, a top foreign policy and security goal for the Obama administration.

Pakistan planes would have engaged NATO in attack: Army &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Irfan Baloch

OrionHunter said:


> Sorry, you may have your facts wrong. Shamsi base was NOT Pakistan's property! The airfield was *leased to the UAE* by Pakistan and was used for years by the rich Arab sheiks from Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries for falconry trips.
> 
> *Pakistan Air Chief Rao Qamar Suleman had also disclosed that Pakistan&#8217;s Shamsi Air Base is under the control of United Arab Emirates, not in the control of Pakistan Air Force while briefing a joint in-camera session of Pakistan parliament on 13 May 2011.*
> 
> However, it is apparent that the lease may have now been cancelled as the UAE has not impressed upon Pakistan to review its decision of asking the United States to withdraw from Shamsi Base. So, as things stand, the US may have to vacate Shamsi by 11 Dec 2011 after all. Sources say that U.S. planning is under way to leave the base by the scheduled date.
> 
> According to U.S. government sources, the United States has spent months preparing for a possible eviction from the Shamsi base by building up other drone launching and staging capabilities inside Afghanistan. Vacating the base was seen more as an inconvenience rather than a critical blow to drone operations which the United States also conducts from Afghanistan and possibly elsewhere.





I hope you are aware that leasing a place doesnt transfer the title to the lessee, he is just renting like any commercial or residential property. and there are always conditions to the lease and the lessor can cancel the lease so your reasoning is misplaced.

whether UAE was using the base or not is irrelevant, it was finally Pakistan&#8217;s decision to let the Americans use it since it wasnt affecting their own operations in anyway.


whether USA needs this base or not, whether they find a better place elsewhere, whether their supplies are dropped by NASA etc etc are all irrelevant, Pakistan had few options to exercise after the NATO attack and closing border, boycotting the Bonn Conference and requesting the closure of operations at shamsi were one of them to express its protest.

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## VelocuR

penumbra said:


> There is no need to 'ask' PAF to retaliate.....they are the ones with the eyes on the horizon...they should respond automatically and ask the intruding forces to move back, land or be shot down.
> 
> Simple.....and thats the Standard Operating Procedure.....for most of the nations.
> 
> Remember the Hainan island incident...



That's exactly same thing, Pakistan soldiers (28 Martyers) did self-defence to fire back which is unsuccessful. What's other options? or make soldiers died?? I begin recognize Pakistan Army is weak and incompetent to protect Pakistan in numerous times. Simple Somalia state. By the new decision from Kiyani, it doesn't make differences. Don't forget the high tension during OBL raid. 

This article explained it all. 
Pakistan planes would have engaged NATO in attack: Army &#8211; The Express Tribune



> &#8220;The response could have been more effective if PAF (Pakistan Air Force) had also joined in. However, it was no fault of PAF,&#8221; the statement said.





> &#8220;The timely decision could not be taken due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts and, therefore, lack of clarity of situation, at various levels, including the Corps Headquarters and GHQ (General Headquarters).&#8221;



Hainan Island incident, there was response from China's interceptor fighter jet to force it down. Did Pakistan do simple or stupid sitting-ducks PAF? 

It make us mad.

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## Mujahid

*Pakistan Prepares for U.S. Attack, Bild Reports, Citing Document
*
By Rainer Buergin - Dec 2, 2011 12:35 PM GMT+0500 

Pakistan has taken measures to prepare for a possible attack by U.S. forces, Germany&#8217;s Bild- Zeitung reported, citing a classified document by the U.S. government&#8217;s Combined Joint Intelligence Operations Center. 

Pakistan has set up defensive positions in the border region with Afghanistan in response to an attack the country&#8217;s military sees as potentially imminent, Bild cited the document as saying. 

Numerous anti-aircraft radar installations are in place to track low-flying vehicles, increasing Pakistan&#8217;s capability to spot helicopters and drones, Bild said. 

Afghanistan will suffer a civil war once the International Security Assistance Force leaves the country, Bild also reported, citing U.S. military intelligence. 

Pakistan Prepares for U.S. Attack, Bild Reports, Citing Document - Bloomberg


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## VelocuR

US and NATO will try different tactics and new method attack on Pakistan, Kiyani have no clue of what happen next....

Army GHQ Attacks
ISI Dept Attacks
OBL raid
Mehran Attacks
NATO Attacks


*Prediction: *
Kiyani assassinated by terrorist attacks?
Nuke Attacks (false flag)?

More accurate attacks within next 12 months before Obama election.....Local commanders (weak) will be out of control unsuccessfully to attract more intrusions attacks within deep inside Pakistan.


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## Sinnerman108

PAF would not DARE go near there.

Sad but that is what the truth is and it seems they have learned NOTHING since the last 3 years and specially after 1999.

The men in blue are earning a LOT of shame for us.


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## S.M.R

Thanks, they didn't come up with the statement that they were out of fuel like Railway.


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## OrionHunter

> US officials, quoted in the Wall Street Journal on Friday, claimed *Pakistani officials cleared the air strike without realizing they had troops in the area*.


Good God Almighty! Another twist in the tail!! *How did Pakistani officials not have known that their two posts, 'Volcano' and 'Boulder' were not occupied, clearing the air strike? *


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## Controlled Pair

Looks like Pakistani & NATO negligence may have caused this accident.



> Pakistani officials at a border coordination center gave the go-ahead to American airstrikes that inadvertently killed 24 Pakistan troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, according to U.S. officials briefed on the preliminary investigation.
> 
> When called, the Pakistani representatives at the center said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the Americans to conduct the airstrikes, the U.S. officials said.
> 
> Officials in Islamabad couldn't be reached to comment on the U.S. allegations. Pakistan repeatedly has denied its forces fired on the Americans.
> 
> Pakistan doesn't have veto authority over strikes along the border, U.S. officials said. But the North Atlantic Treaty Organization makes contact with the center to make sure its operations don't put Pakistani troops or aircraft in the line of fire.



Pakistan Cleared Fatal Hit, U.S. Says - WSJ.com


Friendly fire happens in every war. It's just a pity Islamists and the enemies of the west within Pakistan have taken this opportunity to try and cause divisions between Pakistan and NATO/US.


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## Leviza

Controlled Pair said:


> Looks like Pakistani & NATO negligence may have caused this accident.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Cleared Fatal Hit, U.S. Says - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> Friendly fire happens in every war. It's just a pity Islamists and the enemies of the west within Pakistan have taken this opportunity to try and cause divisions between Pakistan and NATO/US.



already posted no need to create more and more threads 

it was biggest lie, they were army posts not any temp campsites ..

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## Lord Of Gondor

Already posted,IIRC.


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## Safriz

liers liers..pants on fires


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## Controlled Pair

Didn't know it had already posted. Should I delete?


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## tony singh

Now i understand why US never offered a formal apology

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## W.11

its obviously a very pathetic story, first of all NATO came with excuse that ANA had called them to go over there as they reported firing, now the story is changed from A to Z

i will wait for the investigation to be over and obviously if america is correct pakistan has lied, or if pakistan is correct americans are lying

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## Jango

OrionHunter said:


> Good God Almighty! Another twist in the tail!! *How did Pakistani officials not have known that their two posts, 'Volcano' and 'Boulder' were not occupied, clearing the air strike? *



ISPR has categorically denied that report.

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## Punjabbi Munda

earier radars werent working during osama raid and now this.. they are very bad at making excuses.. everything fails at the crucial moment..

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## regular

Punjabbi Munda said:


> earier radars werent working during osama raid and now this.. they are very bad at making excuses.. everything fails at the crucial moment..


Yes! U absolutely right .....looks like our PAF is paid from the US/NATO that they sleep whenever US/NATO enters our airspace and wakesup when Indian plane enters.....means our PAF elites and our Army elites are not working for Pakistan but for US/NATO......


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## saurav

*Conducting foreign policy on martyrdom | Blog | DAWN.COM*


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## Avisheik

An indian trainee cheetah heli strands into pakistan, fighter jets are called in to intercept it.

28 soldiers getting killed by airstrikes, PAF fighter jets cant scramble to save their patriots.

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## F.O.X

Avisheik said:


> An indian trainee cheetah heli strands into pakistan, fighter jets are called in to intercept it.
> 
> 28 soldiers getting killed by airstrikes, PAF fighter jets cant scramble to save their patriots.



Sometimes you have to make decision for a greater benefit by suffering a smaller loss .


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## bdslph

so what they want to say that you cannot shoot at USA NATO even if they shoot you how stupid 

they really saying they are dumb 

Pakistan fired only only when the USA and NATO forces fired and i believe they were inside the Pakistan and they call in the strikes so by that time they would be back in Afghanistan 

terrorist a re not that stupid they will go in the top all and start shooting what they cannot shoot which they know very well

the helo and planes are not 1950,s vintage of the NATO usa forces still they the pilots can understand something 

what a cooked up story they are making everyday


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## Secur

POPS said:


> hi secur i have question what according to you will be the logical end (i mean possible conclusion) of this episode ?


 NATO must stop drone attacks and all these border violations immediately , keep getting supplies from Northern Distribution Network and Withdraw from Afghanistan in 2014 ... We neither need aid or alliance with USA from now on ...


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## Avisheik

F.O.X said:


> Sometimes you have to make decision for a greater benefit but suffering a smaller loss .


 
I dont see the act of 28 soldiers from being massacred by foreigners as greater benefit


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Controlled Pair said:


> Looks like Pakistani & NATO negligence may have caused this accident.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Cleared Fatal Hit, U.S. Says - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> Friendly fire happens in every war. It's just a pity Islamists and the enemies of the west within Pakistan have taken this opportunity to try and cause divisions between Pakistan and NATO/US.



If it was a mistake and friendly fire the NATO should apologies, as it has a record of doing so with other incidence but they aren't. US has just pass bill to put sanctions on Pakistan defense aid , What a friend indeed. 
Don't putting labels of Islamist its a way to hide your mistakes, every country has their interests and not all Pakistanis are sold out.

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## notorious_eagle

Avisheik said:


> I dont see the act of 28 soldiers from being massacred by foreigners as greater benefit



If PAF would have intervened and shot down the intruding helicopters, you honestly except the other side was going to sit quite. They would have rendered PAF equal to a flying a club in less than 24 hours, so yes for the greater good we took those casualties. Getting into a head on shooting war is not in Pakistan's interests, we have to find an alternative solution.

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## Secur

Saleem said:


> @ Thor; an armoured brigade will be vaporized into burnt out hulks in 5 minutes by the USAF. come on, you are in the 21st century.


 Who tells you these fairy tales ? 

Only if this was the case , would USA have hesitated to take out half the world's armies ? 
Atleast think before you post such things ...


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## Gin ka Pakistan

I have a question , Can NATO use Afghan transit to hide its logistics , with the help of all sold out Pakistanis in power.


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## Secur

T-Rex said:


> *
> Don't tell me that you are a greater skeptic than I am, but take my word for it, this time Zardari or his PPP government won't be able to get away with such an act. It won't be too difficult for their political foes to expose the truth to the public and then all hell will break lose on them. So, I'm pretty sure the PPP government won't try anything like that. Kayani has given explicit orders to his troops to retaliate if they come under fire, ask yourself why. Do you think Kayani has given this order willingly? No, not at all, it's all circumstances. Circumstances make dog eat dog.*


 Couldn't have said it any better bro ... Very true 

Its not possible for Zardari & Co to get over with it so easily this time ... Kayani will have to face the heat , the greatest test he ever faced 



Gin ka Pakistan said:


> I have a question , Can NATO use Afghan transit to hide its logistics , with the help of all sold out Pakistanis in power.


 Not with the current media and public attention ...


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## Bill Longley

> [B]It was clear from General Nadeem&#8217;s briefing that there was misleading information being provided to the Pakistan military from the start. Just before the attack, a Pakistani officer at the regional tactical center was informed by an American sergeant that their special forces had received *indirect fire from Gora Pai, located some 15 kilometres away from Volcano post*. And after 7 minutes, a woman officer informed him that the fire had, in fact, come from Volcano, which had been hit in retaliation.
> â&#8364;&#732;Unprovokedâ&#8364;&#8482;: DGMO gives details of aerial assault &#8211; The Express Tribune
> [/B]



NATO AND US IS LIEING. NO THEY ARE SHAMELESSLY TRYING TO BLAME THEIR INTENSIONAL KILLING ON AGGRIEVED PARTY
Shame less liers they are


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## 53fd

A Pakistan US confrontation would result in World War 3, & I don't think anyone, including the US would want that.


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## niazifighter

StandForInsaf said:


> salmakh84 99% and niazifighter 85% posts are anti Pakistan , i doubt they are false flagers.


not anti pakistani but definitely anti army and i acknowledge it wholeheartedly 
false flaggers!!!!!!!!!!!!
when i posted for the first time an indian predicted you are to be called as false flag indian god damn he was right but no offence i know the specific mentality of so called patriots and army supporters and i can describe them in single word 
parochialism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## F.O.X

Avisheik said:


> I dont see the act of 28 soldiers from being massacred by foreigners as greater benefit



Some of it has been explained by notorious_eagle .

and also if we had shot them down we wouldn't be in a position we are now , and trust me we as a Nation are in a very good position. For once US cannot dictate us , we on the other hand have an excuse to reject every thing or favor Us ask us .

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## Secur

niazifighter said:


> not anti pakistani but definitely* anti* *army *and i acknowledge it wholeheartedly
> false flaggers!!


 Have the guts to go to the border and fight keyboard warrior ?  ... Its easy to criticize army but people dont realize that they have limited choices at the moment ...

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## maverick1977

dont dwell in the past, what are the tactical steps taken by PA and PAF to thrawt further attacks. MANPADS, low flying radars, AWACS more CAPS ??? 

ALso, let me throw an analysis out there. Pakistan is in same situation as it was in 71 war. but this time well prepared. But here is what came out of analysis of 71 war. Pakistani army officers all the way from company level to batallion level fought bravely, except, one brigade which did not give any ground to enemies. Rest of Pakistani army brigadiers and generals were waiting for american help. This is what i gather from one brigade command which fought till the end, if the commanders are willing to fight the battles they can fight it and give a hard time to their enemies. 

Why did i mention this, the way i see PA brigadiers and generals, they live life of luxuries, but an american 3 star general travels on local train standing most of the time with local people. Therefore, my conclusion is, unless PA generals and brigadier wont throw away their whiskies and lead a humble life, PA is bound to loose any war the way they did in 71 war. i firmly believe this.

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## Secur

niazifighter said:


> personal attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!are you losing your mind !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! finding hard to defend !!!!!!!!!!!!!! i can understand !!!!!!!!!!!!! nevermind
> argue decently or i will be forced to pay you in same coin and in doing so i would be definitely be described as alqaeda ar probably cia operative


 Dont overreact ... I can very well understand your mentality ... Who else exactly according to you should protect the country if not the army ?  ... What do you mean by being anti army exactly ? You could have said that top brass is corrupt but do not mock those brave soldiers who are ready to do anything ... What will i find hard to defend ?  ... I salute the army for the brave measures they have taken ... I am not a thankless person like you who has absolutely no idea of the ground realities ...

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## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> So in every scenario that your present, NATO always comes right. This is the reason you shouldn't post because all your assessments reek of biased mentality that a handful of you display every opportunity. Thanks God, most of the Indians do not possess the same mentality.
> 
> And had there been any single attack on that Afghan side, they would have provided video evidence the same day of atleast some destruction or bullet holes! Dude, someday the situation will be reversed and hopefully I will have the opportunity to return this 'neutral observations'!



Reacting without reading carefully generally ends with an embarrassing realization. It would really help if you read the 1st line of my post and think again..


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## Mujraparty

bilalhaider said:


> A Pakistan US confrontation would result in World War 3, & I don't think anyone, including the US would want that.


 
im sorry but how would pak-us confrontation will lead to 3 world war ..?? dude ,if your thinking rus n china will get itself involved in any future conflicts VS USA ... then ur wrong buddy, no way , nada


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## Rig Vedic

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> I have a question , Can NATO use Afghan transit to hide its logistics , with the help of all sold out Pakistanis in power.



I think if Afghan government is importing anything there will be no legal way to block it. There is no reason why Afghan govt could not import something and then hand over to NATO.

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## 53fd

eowyn said:


> im sorry but how would pak-us confrontation will lead to 3 world war ..?? dude ,if your thinking rus n china will side pak n any future conflicts VS USA ... ur wrong buddy, no way , nada



Iran is Pakistan's neighbor, it might get involved. It Pakistan threatens to use its nukes, it could definitely bring in China & the rest of the world into the mix as well. But I don't think it is a situation that will transpire, I don't think there will be an outright confrontation between both countries. But you can never be sure with the hawks with their foolish endeavors sitting in Washington DC.

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## Secur

niazifighter said:


> how they have defended dear now they are set to blast america throw them out of shamsi forcefully!!!!!!!!!!as you people are chanting but at the first time when it was not in pakistan interest to give such bases and so much logistical support army flopped
> musharaf said america would have bomb us and sent us to stone age remember why army didn't show defiance then?????
> when a cia terrorist conduct a terrorist act army and agencies covertly aid his release, why didn't they simply abducted rymond davis and didn't kept him in illegal captivity just like other terrorism suspects
> why army fail to protect us from such acts
> why army fail to heed drone attacks remember the first drone attack it derailed the peace process and killed naik mohammad army instead of sending a strong message to america claimed they carried out the attack
> why army failed to protect the civillians killed by drone attacks ?????????????



They have defended you and the existence of the Pakistan for the last 60+ years ... Have you forgotten that ? Or you seriously think that fighting NATO is so easy as your posts seem to imply ? What defiance would the army have shown when Musharraf himself agreed to become a partner in WoT ? Raymond Davis issue has nothing to do with the army but the civilian Government so no need to score brownie points ... About drone attacks , I ask you does the corrupt Govt of Pakistan has the will and guts to order such a move ? PA isn't some rag tag militia to mutiny against their command ...

I have told you before ... Continue criticizing the top brass but not for a second try to forget and mock the sacrifices of the army who have died protecting the country ...

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## Trisonics

*Pakistan gave OK to deadly U.S. air strike, says report*
Washington,Dec 2,Reuters:

Pakistani officials gave the go-ahead to a NATO air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday quoting U.S. officials.

Report: Pakistan gave OK to deadly US air strike - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com

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## Irfan Baloch

Trisonics said:


> *Pakistan gave OK to deadly U.S. air strike, says report*
> Washington,Dec 2,Reuters:
> 
> Pakistani officials gave the go-ahead to a NATO air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday quoting U.S. officials.
> 
> Report: Pakistan gave OK to deadly US air strike - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com




what is mainly missed by everyone is that this account is based on the troops who actually called in the strikes 26 commando (sounds British) the report also states that this account can change as the investigation is continued

but the point is

Pakistanis called them to stop the attack and they didnt, they had the gridlines of the post too. they went back adn returned again and resumed their attack. even if they got the go ahead in the begining has a small chance of being true basically falls flat on its face when they decided to ignore the blue on blue calls.

as expected, anyone else but NATo willbe blamed for this attack and that will be the end of it.

I am sure by 23 Dec-11 the American technology will even have a very convincing video footage to back up their claims too.

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## Secur

Trisonics said:


> *Pakistan gave OK to deadly U.S. air strike, says report*
> Washington,Dec 2,Reuters:
> 
> Pakistani officials gave the go-ahead to a NATO air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday quoting U.S. officials.
> 
> Report: Pakistan gave OK to deadly US air strike - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com


and yeah the Americans never went to the moon ... Sorry , I have stopped believing in conspiracy theories a long time ago 

and its already posted , you are kinda late 




Irfan Baloch said:


> I am sure by 23 Dec-11 the American technology will even have a very convincing video footage to back up their claims too.


 For sure , Manufacturing evidence anyone ?


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## 53fd

Trisonics said:


> *Pakistan gave OK to deadly U.S. air strike, says report*
> Washington,Dec 2,Reuters:
> 
> Pakistani officials gave the go-ahead to a NATO air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday quoting U.S. officials.
> 
> Report: Pakistan gave OK to deadly US air strike - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com



How many times are you going to post the same thing that has been posted over at least the last 20-30 pages? The account has been denied by the ISPR.


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## Secur

I cant understand one thing , why would the apaches need to stay for 2 hours in Pakistani Airspace when the sleeping troops were killed in minutes ? Or I am missing something here ...

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## Trisonics

bilalhaider said:


> How many times *are you going* to post the same thing that has been posted over at least the last 20-30 pages? The account has been denied by the ISPR.



Can you show me if i had posted those? Who the hell would read 275 pages..? In ay case Whats wrong in seeing the other side of the coin? Why should one hear the story from just one side? So what if ISPR denied the news..did it do that with proof? 



> &#8220;There was absolutely no malicious, deliberate attack on the Pakistani military posts,&#8221; a US defense official said.
> Other American officials said the Pakistani military should have known from the presence of helicopters in the combined US-Afghan commando force that Americans were in the area.
> &#8220;If you hear American helicopters why would you lob mortars and machine gun fire at them? The Pakistanis can say we thought it was insurgents, except for the fact that the Taliban doesn&#8217;t have helicopters,&#8221; said the US official.


Report: Pakistan gave &#8216;go-ahead&#8217; before NATO attack, says US &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## 53fd

Trisonics said:


> Can you show me if i had posted those? Who the hell would read 275 pages..? In ay case Whats wrong in seeing the other side of the coin? Why should one hear the story from just one side? So what if ISPR denied the news..did it do that with proof?



You did not post it, but others have been posting repeatedly what you are posting right now.


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## karan.1970

Bang Galore said:


> Depends on your definition of victory. The Taliban hold no ground, have nothing of value & fight a guerrilla battle against superior forces. For them, not being wiped out is a victory. Doubt very much whether that standard can be used by a regular military. Pakistan will come worse off in any serious confrontation with NATO/U.S..Your only trump card is the threat of WMD. While it has worked very well for you vis-a-vis India; not sure that Pakistan wants to be threatening nuclear warfare with the U.S. Allowing individual commanders to "retaliate" only exposes Pakistan to the claim that the Pakistani soldiers fired first. The nature of the casualties in any new incident is unlikely to be any different from this attack. Gen Kayani's statement makes for good copy but I don't believe is meant to be taken seriously especially by those who might be on the firing line.



True.. Any battle between NATO and Pakistan wont have a different ending from the one between Iraq and USA..

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## Secur

karan.1970 said:


> True.. Any battle between NATO and Pakistan wont have a different ending from the one between Iraq and USA..


 How are you so sure of that ? ... Iraqi army ran away in the initial days of the war ... Forget about PA doing so ...


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## Trisonics

bilalhaider said:


> You did not post it, but others have been posting repeatedly what you are posting right now.



This thread has grown 10 folds suddenly. Why is this news part of the original story. The new stories should have been maintained as a separate view point unless of course that causes embarrassment to the Pakistanis here.

Anyway, I shall go back and read the 20-30 pages now.

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## Irfan Baloch

Secur said:


> I cant understand one thing , why would the apaches need to stay for 2 hours in Pakistani Airspace when the sleeping troops were killed in minutes ? Or I am missing something here ...




ensure infiltration of TTP/ BLA terrorists for which these posts were established?
victory dance?
bored?
burn the fuel funded by American tax payer?
hoping for the PAF to show up so that they can be drummed into Afhganistan and then engaged by NATO fighter CAP?
ensure there were no witnesses?

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## Secur

Trisonics said:


> This thread has grown 10 folds suddenly. Why is this news part of the original story. The new stories should have been maintained as a separate view point unless of course that causes embarrassment to the Pakistanis here.
> 
> Anyway, I shall go back and read the 20-30 pages now.


 What embarrassment can it cause us seriously ? The Americans are lying as usual ... That just equal to saying that the Pakistani high command gave a green signal to the Americans to kill its own troops ... Only naive Americans can believe it ... Same like they justifying spending trillions to kill OBL ... Simple as that ...

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## 53fd

Trisonics said:


> This thread has grown 10 folds suddenly. Why is this news part of the original story. The new stories should have been maintained as a separate view point unless of course that causes embarrassment to the Pakistanis here.
> 
> Anyway, I shall go back and read the 20-30 pages now.



Here it is:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...stani-soldiers-aftermath-266.html#post2349877


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## Irfan Baloch

Trisonics said:


> *This thread has grown 10 folds suddenly. Why is this news part of the original story.* The new stories should have been maintained as a separate view point unless of course that causes embarrassment to the Pakistanis here.
> 
> Anyway, I shall go back and read the 20-30 pages now.



to ensure organisation otherwise you and likes of you will be creating a new thread when

clinton says she wont say sorry
Joe the plumber says Haqqanis did it
Patrius says Pakistanis are lying
Afghan border police says haqqani was hiding in that post
Obama says he is going to have two Turkeys for thanks giving because pakistan was attacked


and so forth...
nothing to do with embarrassment but about keeping all the bla bla bla in one place, speak your heart out here but stay within limits,

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## Secur

Yeah , tomorrow they will say that before sleeping the troops themselves asked NATO to attack their check posts  ... and people will consider it as Gospel Truth ... Such is the power of propaganda ...

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## idune

if Pakstan can announce that NATO and US have no trust in Pakistan and Pakistan made its conclusion based on first hand evidence and eyewitness period then all these fabricated stories and propagana spin would have no value at all.


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## Emmie

> ISLAMABAD: *The Parliamentary Committee on National Security has endorsed the decision to boycott the Bonn Conference in protest against Nato attacks on Pakistani check posts*, Geo News reported.
> *
> &#8220;No representative from Pakistan will be attending the conference," said Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan while speaking to the media.
> *
> The committee also endorsed the decisions to stop Nato supplies and asking the US to vacate the Shamsi airbase which were made during the meeting of the Defence Committee.
> 
> The meeting was held under the chairmanship of Senator Raza Rabbani and attended by the prime minister, federal ministers and representatives from prominent political parties.
> 
> Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani briefed the participants about the Nato attack.
> 
> The prime minister said despite being contacted by numerous international leaders including German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the decision to boycott the Bonn Conference was in the interest of national security.
> 
> Gilani also briefed the committee on the decision to stop Nato supplies and asking the US to vacate Shamsi airbase.
> 
> *DG Military Operations Ashfaq Nadeem also briefed the meeting about the Nato attack*.
> 
> *"DG Military Operations will brief the Federal Cabinet on the Nato attack on December 12," said Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan*



Parliamentary Committee on National Security endorses Bonn Conference boycott


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## karan.1970

Secur said:


> How are you so sure of that ? ... Iraqi army ran away in the initial days of the war ... Forget about PA doing so ...



BTW, if it makes you feel better, the same holds true (though will take a little bit longer) in a battle between India and USA too... There is Patriotism, and then there is foolish optimism.. One needs to know the difference between the 2

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## Secur

idune said:


> if Pakstan can announce that NATO and US have no trust in Pakistan and Pakistan made its conclusion based on first hand evidence and eyewitness period then all these fabricated stories and propagana spin would have no value at all.


 Well , the ISPR has already done that ... Called it as deliberate ... Nobody's gonna believe the US version of events whenever it comes out and whatever they write or show ...


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## F.O.X

So now if anyone was having doubts that Parliament will chicken out & will Sent a representative should be at ease . because even thought at gun point by Army they atleast have decided to stick with a decision , and by Pakistan no attending Bonn conference it will be just a Expensive trip for leaders of 90 or so countries , Since there will no Pakistan so there will be No Taliban either , & Iran is also not attending . 

Well Then best of Luck US/NATO lets see how you find a solution for Afg stability without us .

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## ajpirzada

Pakistan official denies OK given for NATO air strike

(Reuters) - A Pakistani official Friday denied a Western newspaper report that Pakistani officials gave the go-ahead to a NATO air strike that killed 24 troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area.

Last weekend's cross-border attack has caused public outrage in Pakistan, where the government has pulled out of next week's international conference on Afghanistan and threatened to end support for the U.S.-led war there if its sovereignty is violated again.

The U.S. officials, giving their first detailed explanation of the worst friendly-fire incident of the 10-year-old war, told the Wall Street Journal an Afghan-led assault force that included U.S. commandos was hunting Taliban militants when it came under fire from an encampment along the border with Pakistan.

The commandos thought they were being fired on by militants but they turned out to be Pakistani military personnel who had established a temporary campsite, they were quoted as saying.

According to the initial U.S. account from the field, the commandos requested air strikes against the encampment, prompting the team to contact a joint border-control center to determine whether Pakistani forces were in the area, a U.S. official said.

The border-control center is manned by U.S., Afghan and Pakistani representatives. But the U.S. and Afghan forces conducting the November 26 commando operation had not notified the center in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, the official said.

When called, the Pakistani representatives at the center said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the air strikes, the U.S. officials said.

A Pakistani military official categorically denied the Journal's account, saying the aircraft had already engaged when Pakistan was contacted.

"Wrong information about the area of operation was provided to Pakistani officials a few minutes before the strike," said the official, who was not authorized to speak to the media.

"Without getting clearance from the Pakistan side, the post had already been engaged by U.S. helicopters and fighter jets. Pakistan did not have any prior information about any operation in the area."

Washington has called it a tragic accident and offered its condolences, promising a full investigation. It has not apologized.

"There were lots of mistakes made," the newspaper quoted an official as saying.

The Journal said U.S. officials have in the past expressed reservations about notifying the Pakistanis about operations, concerned the missions' details could leak out.

It added that the officials cautioned that the preliminary account was based mainly on interviews with members of the commando team and could change as more information is gathered.

A formal report on the incident is due to be completed by U.S. military investigators by December 23.

Pakistan official denies OK given for NATO air strike | Reuters

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## Hellfire

Secur said:


> Well , the ISPR has already done that ... Called it as deliberate ... Nobody's gonna believe the US version of events whenever it comes out and whatever they write or show ...



do you think anyone cares? do you think that once the air assets of NATO started attacking your positions, the same was not relayed back to the respective formation headquarters? Do you think all soldiers were killed simultaneously that message that they were under air attack could not be passed? If anyone in Pakistan believes that then they deserve to be treated like crap like has been done.

US coolly killed your troops, roamed around the area for 02 hours and you guys could do noting except make impotent statements .... and praise your COAS's stupid statement of giving permission to troops to retaliate. In all likelihood your top brass including your Army Brass was in loop and they did nothing knowing they can do nothing. You engage US forces in air battle once, and then you see the fun.

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------




ajpirzada said:


> Pakistan official denies OK given for NATO air strike



Ofcourse a go ahead was given by Pakistan, that is why for two hours you could not scramble your aircrafts for strikes back at air assets which attacked your troops. Why waste bandwidth? You guys have had it. All have sold you too down the drain

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## Secur

hellfire said:


> So will anyone elucidate why all Pakistani forum members are going ga-ga over Gen Kayani's statement of giving a go ahead to Pakistani Army to retaliate? If I remember correctly, post Abbotabad too you guys had threatened to shoot down US assets if they carried out aggressive actions like crossing into Pakistani airspace. You mean to tell that for two hours the NATO air assets were roaming around in your area after shooting up your troops and NO ONE knew about that?


 
Can you think of any reason why would they need to stay airborne in Pakistani airspace for 2 hours burning expensive fuel if the operation was completed in minutes ? How do you guys even believe such lies actually ? 

Yeah the public consumption is being done by boycotting Bon conference , shutting off NATO supplies completely and vacating Shamsi Airbase ... So much only for public consumption and fake remorse

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## Awesome

Rumors abound that the gun cam footage from one of the choppers has been leaked and may be aired on some news channel. Keep your eyes and ears open, it will be quite damning to at least one side.

It may be false, but I heard about it, so I thought I'd tell you all who can start hunting for it.


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## Patriot

Asim Aquil said:


> Rumors abound that the gun cam footage from one of the choppers has been leaked and may be aired on some news channel. Keep your eyes and ears open, it will be quite damning to at least one side.
> 
> It may be false, but I heard about it, so I thought I'd tell you all who can start hunting for it.


Please post a link as soon as you find it.


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## Secur

Asim Aquil said:


> Rumors abound that the gun cam footage from one of the choppers has been leaked and may be aired on some news channel. Keep your eyes and ears open, it will be quite damning to at least one side.
> 
> It may be false, but I heard about it, so I thought I'd tell you all who can start hunting for it.


 Deliberately leaked you mean ? ... Does NATO usually record every single video of its operation this way ?  Or PSYOPS has begun again ...


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## ajpirzada

Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces

Pakistan's military commanders have ordered their troops to return fire if they come under attack from Nato forces, raising the prospect of further deadly clashes along the country's border with Afghanistan.

General Ashfaq Kayani, Pakistan's army chief, gave the new order in response to the recent deaths of 24 soldiers when their border posts came under fire from Nato helicopters.

Kayani is under immense pressure from within his own ranks over the two-hour bombardment by the helicopters of an ally, to which the Pakistani air force did not respond. The incident piled further humiliation on a military still stung by the US special forces operation in May that killed Osama bin Laden deep inside Pakistan.

"I want to emphasise and leave no ambiguity in the rules of engagement for everyone down the chain of command," Kayani said in a letter to his troops.

"When under attack, you have full liberty of action to respond with all capabilities at your disposal. This will require no clearance at any level.

"I have very clearly directed that any act of aggression will be responded to with full force, *regardless of the cost and consequences*." _(if anyone asks me, ill say that the bold part is the only thing which matters in this whole article)_

The communique, issued in Urdu, will be read out by local commanders to their soldiers.

Kayani also said that the air force did not respond to the Nato attack "due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts".

The move effectively transforms the role of more than 100,000 Pakistan troops deployed along its western border from counterinsurgency to border protection duty.

The Nato attack happened on the border between the Afghan province of Kunar and the Mohmand part of Pakistan's tribal area. The border posts were 300 metres inside Pakistani territory.

Pakistan claims the attack was "unprovoked" and continued even after it alerted Nato to the fact that its post was coming under fire.

US officials have claimed a combined Afghan and US special forces squad operating close to the border came under fire from suspected militants on the Pakistani side, and that they responded by calling in air support.

But a senior Pakistani military officer said US officials supplied the wrong co-ordinates for the proposed strike, and then launched the attack "without getting clearance from the Pakistani side".

"It was an unprovoked and indiscriminate attack by US helicopters and fighter jets," he said.

He denied an account by American officials, carried in Friday's Wall Street Journal, that they had checked the location with Pakistan first and the fatal strike had been given the go-ahead.

An investigation by the US military is under way.

In retaliation for the incident, Pakistan has blocked the transit of Nato supplies through its territory, ended the US use of an airbase and is boycotting next week's high-level international meeting on Afghanistan in Bonn.

Pakistan's co-operation is considered vital to stabilising Afghanistan and pushing the Taliban into peace talks.

Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces | World news | The Guardian

---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------




hellfire said:


> Ofcourse a go ahead was given by Pakistan, that is why for two hours you could not scramble your aircrafts for strikes back at air assets which attacked your troops. Why waste bandwidth? You guys have had it. All have sold you too down the drain



sure. anything else u would lik to put across?? I am carefully listening

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## BATMAN

How come secret things got leaked so easily from US record?


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## Hellfire

Secur said:


> Can you think of any reason why would they need to stay airborne in Pakistani airspace for 2 hours burning expensive fuel if the operation was completed in minutes ? How do you guys even believe such lies actually ?
> 
> Yeah the public consumption is being done by boycotting Bon conference , shutting off NATO supplies completely and vacating Shamsi Airbase ... So much only for public consumption and fake remorse



Bro can you think of ANY DAMNNED reason why foreign aircrafts were in PAK airspace AFTER ATTACKING PAKISTANI TROOPS and NOT ONE BLOODY AIRCRAFT could be mustered by PAF?

Just think.

And as if your boycotting the BONN CONFERENCE is end of the world .... who really does care about Pakistan? Play the devil and soon your *** will be on line too. Today no one is bothered if you have to be hit .... do you think anyone cares?

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## F.O.X

*Parliamentary Committee on National Security endorses Bonn Conference boycott
*


> *Parliamentary Committee on National Security endorses Bonn Conference boycott*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The Parliamentary Committee on National Security has endorsed the decision to boycott the Bonn Conference in protest against Nato attacks on Pakistani check posts, Geo News reported.
> 
> No representative from Pakistan will be attending the conference," said Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan while speaking to the media.
> 
> The committee also endorsed the decisions to stop Nato supplies and asking the US to vacate the Shamsi airbase which were made during the meeting of the Defence Committee.
> 
> The meeting was held under the chairmanship of Senator Raza Rabbani and attended by the prime minister, federal ministers and representatives from prominent political parties.
> 
> Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani briefed the participants about the Nato attack.
> 
> The prime minister said despite being contacted by numerous international leaders including German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the decision to boycott the Bonn Conference was in the interest of national security.
> 
> Gilani also briefed the committee on the decision to stop Nato supplies and asking the US to vacate Shamsi airbase.
> 
> DG Military Operations Ashfaq Nadeem also briefed the meeting about the Nato attack.
> 
> "DG Military Operations will brief the Federal Cabinet on the Nato attack on December 12," said Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan.
> 
> Parliamentary Committee on National Security endorses Bonn Conference boycott


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## BATMAN

F.O.X said:


> *Parliamentary Committee on National Security endorses Bonn Conference boycott
> *



Parliament is bunch of hordes and memo gate hints, how foreign world particularly US value them.


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## F.O.X

BATMAN said:


> Parliament is bunch of hordes and memo gate hints, how foreign world particularly US value them.



Well They do have to make decisions when Army is Standing behind them with a Gun on their head.

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## Irfan Baloch

hellfire said:


> Bro can you think of ANY DAMNNED reason why foreign aircrafts were in PAK airspace AFTER ATTACKING PAKISTANI TROOPS and NOT ONE BLOODY AIRCRAFT could be mustered by PAF?
> 
> Just think.
> 
> And as if your boycotting the BONN CONFERENCE is end of the world .... who really does care about Pakistan? Play the devil and soon your *** will be on line too. Today no one is bothered if you have to be hit .... do you think anyone cares?




thanks for stating the obvious

anything thing else to tell us we dont know already? please do so in a way which is worth posting.
you know how much we care about the comments from the likes of you?

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## BATMAN

F.O.X said:


> Well They do have to make decisions when Army is Standing behind them with a Gun on their head.



Than they are even more unworthy bastards but in today's free Pakistan, it is hard to believe what you said.

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## Secur

hellfire said:


> Bro can you think of ANY DAMNNED reason why foreign aircrafts were in PAK airspace AFTER ATTACKING PAKISTANI TROOPS and NOT ONE BLOODY AIRCRAFT could be mustered by PAF
> 
> And as if your boycotting the BONN CONFERENCE is end of the world .... who really does care about Pakistan? Play the devil and soon your *** will be on line too. Today no one is bothered if you have to be hit .... do you think anyone cares?


 
Yes i can , soldiers rely on orders from the high command which unfortunately wasn't given ... PAF again has to take orders from AHQ ... Nobody was allowed to retaliate so they didn't ... The same isn't the case now ...

And yeah if NATO has to stay in Afghanistan till 2014 and bring a face saving end to this conflict , they have to care what Pakistan says or does ... Over 40% of NATO supplies pass through Torkhum and Chaman ... You think this is a joke ?  Russia has already started blackmailing USA over NDN for European missile defense shield ... NDN can only be kept operational until 2014 ( Russia doesn't support NATO presence in Afghanistan after 2014 ) ... Bon conference is meaningless without the participation of Pakistan ... Expect continuous civil war in Afghanistan if Pakistan refuses to co-operate ... Nobody cares about Pakistan yet foreign ministers of NATO countries are regularly calling their Pakistani counterparts and pleading for co-operation  Denial mode isn't good for anyone ...

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## F.O.X

BATMAN said:


> Than they are even more unworthy bastards but in today's free Pakistan, it is hard to believe what you said.



Who said they were worthy ? before this our Gov was Spokesperson of USA & Now they are Spokes person of Army , They are always on the side of whoever can make their life hell.

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## F.O.X

hellfire said:


> And as if your boycotting the BONN CONFERENCE is end of the world .... who really does care about Pakistan? Play the devil and soon your *** will be on line too. Today no one is bothered if you have to be hit .... do you think anyone cares?



No it is definitely not the end of the world , but it is definitely the end for a peaceful solution for Afg , it is definitely the end of indian hopes to invest & Control Afg , it is definitely an end to graceful withdrawal of US/NATO forces . 

Today 60% of area is still under Taliban control & after US leaves it wont take much time before they comeback into power , it was Us who said that We will bring Taliban to discussion table so Karzai can live without fear of getting blown up after US leaves , 

There is no peaceful solution to Afg if Taliban are not on board , and there wont be any Taliban if Pakistan is not there . 

so yes we are not important it is just that you cannot even Run from Afg if we dont open a path for you Remember that .

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## Karachihunk

This is not an open conventional war, we know this quite well. Niether the real purpose of the war is clear; for the actions that contradicts the words. So as such covert tactics should be responded with the counter-covert-tactics. I guess it&#8217;s more a nerve game, impatience or anxiety would be quite natural.

We, for sure, are at the brink of flip/flop.

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## HANI

ajpirzada said:


> Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces
> 
> Pakistan's military commanders have ordered their troops to return fire if they come under attack from Nato forces, raising the prospect of further deadly clashes along the country's border with Afghanistan.
> 
> General Ashfaq Kayani, Pakistan's army chief, gave the new order in response to the recent deaths of 24 soldiers when their border posts came under fire from Nato helicopters.
> 
> Kayani is under immense pressure from within his own ranks over the two-hour bombardment by the helicopters of an ally, to which the Pakistani air force did not respond. The incident piled further humiliation on a military still stung by the US special forces operation in May that killed Osama bin Laden deep inside Pakistan.
> 
> "I want to emphasise and leave no ambiguity in the rules of engagement for everyone down the chain of command," Kayani said in a letter to his troops.
> 
> "When under attack, you have full liberty of action to respond with all capabilities at your disposal. This will require no clearance at any level.
> 
> "I have very clearly directed that any act of aggression will be responded to with full force, *regardless of the cost and consequences*." _(if anyone asks me, ill say that the bold part is the only thing which matters in this whole article)_
> 
> The communique, issued in Urdu, will be read out by local commanders to their soldiers.
> 
> Kayani also said that the air force did not respond to the Nato attack "due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts".
> 
> The move effectively transforms the role of more than 100,000 Pakistan troops deployed along its western border from counterinsurgency to border protection duty.
> 
> The Nato attack happened on the border between the Afghan province of Kunar and the Mohmand part of Pakistan's tribal area. The border posts were 300 metres inside Pakistani territory.
> 
> Pakistan claims the attack was "unprovoked" and continued even after it alerted Nato to the fact that its post was coming under fire.
> 
> US officials have claimed a combined Afghan and US special forces squad operating close to the border came under fire from suspected militants on the Pakistani side, and that they responded by calling in air support.
> 
> But a senior Pakistani military officer said US officials supplied the wrong co-ordinates for the proposed strike, and then launched the attack "without getting clearance from the Pakistani side".
> 
> "It was an unprovoked and indiscriminate attack by US helicopters and fighter jets," he said.
> 
> He denied an account by American officials, carried in Friday's Wall Street Journal, that they had checked the location with Pakistan first and the fatal strike had been given the go-ahead.
> 
> An investigation by the US military is under way.
> 
> In retaliation for the incident, Pakistan has blocked the transit of Nato supplies through its territory, ended the US use of an airbase and is boycotting next week's high-level international meeting on Afghanistan in Bonn.
> 
> Pakistan's co-operation is considered vital to stabilising Afghanistan and pushing the Taliban into peace talks.
> 
> Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces | World news | The Guardian
> 
> Just giving free hands to troops is not enough giving them proper fire power to defend is most important........ Providing all the post with Air defence missiles like Anza I or II is a basic necessity now

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## wmdisinfo

The puprose and the aim i will clear it to u.911 BAHANA AFGHANISTAN THIKANA PAKISTAN NISHANA.911 excuse, afghanistan base And Pakistan the Target in simple and NUKES ARE THE MAIN TARGET


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## Irfan Baloch

Secur said:


> Yes i can , soldiers rely on orders from the high command which unfortunately wasn't given ... PAF again has to take orders from AHQ ... Nobody was allowed to retaliate so they didn't ... The same isn't the case now ...
> 
> And yeah if NATO has to stay in Afghanistan till 2014 and bring a face saving end to this conflict , they have to care what Pakistan says or does ... Over 40% of NATO supplies pass through Torkhum and Chaman ... You think this is a joke ?  Russia has already started blackmailing USA over NDN for European missile defense shield ... Bon conference is meaningless without the participation of Pakistan ... Expect continuous civil war in Afghanistan if Pakistan refuses to co-operate ...





what really pains the trolls is that the Afghan majority group and the Pakistani tribal areas, KP and Balochistan share the same ethnic group that have relations on both sides of the border

so what these guys say and want does matter. Afghanistan doesn&#8217;t just rely on NATO supplies but also on food and other trade goods that comes from Pakistan, even during the Soviet occupation.

the Afghans must be "thanking" these trigger happy pillocks for causing all the disruption and will curse NATO if the whole border is blocked from any form of transportation or trade.

NATO might find ways to reroute their supplies and drone strikes but millions of Afghans cant. thats a fact. 

Trolls find it very noble to blame the inaction of the PAF but just consider for a moment, why did NATO did what it did that needed PAF to respond? 

the only parties laughing here are the Trolls that live their short troll life before getting banned or the terrorists who say FU very much to NATO for removing the posts that were making their incursions into KP very difficult

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## Doctor09

DG military operation said that they are providing new weapons to troops to counter such attacks in future .. i think he was pointing toward *Anza *

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## VelocuR

longbrained said:


> What are you saying? FD-2000 can take down a helicopter from 125 Km away. Go and read the FD-2000 specifications first. As for LD-2000 which supports FD-2000, it can take down a helicopter easy. Not only that but it has C-RAM and anti-Precision Guided ammunition capability, which basically means it can shoot down rockets, missiles, artillery shells and even mortars before they hit the ground at a safe distance. Here is more: http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/143634-blanket-air-defense-pakistan.html



Well, Pakistan not going to purchase anytime soon. We can discuss the current resources which PA using now, not SAMs. All of these resources Anza or shoulder to shoulder missiles are ineffective and short ranges. Then we can't do anything to stop experienced Apache. Sorry, there is no point to discuss about SAMs, we currently don't have it. 

Pakistan Army have been taught to counter India and sitting-ducks PAF have been taught to respond quickly against Indian intrusions only. (i.e- recent Indian helicopter held in Pakistan). 

Amazing, how quickly respond to force Indian helicopter down without permission of high command, why can't same to NATO helicopters ? 

PA with 28 martyers and sleeping PAF is full of jokes and defenceless, it will degraded their best reputations. _* Last time, radars something wrong on OBL raid---(blame on radar on/off switch) and now there is something wrong on communication !!!*_

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## Doctor09

RaptorRX707 said:


> Well, Pakistan not going to purchase anytime soon. We can discuss the current resources which PA using now, not SAMs. All of these resources Anza or shoulder to shoulder missiles are ineffective and short ranges. Then we can't do anything to stop experienced Apache. *Sorry, there is no point to discuss about SAMs, we currently don't have it. *
> 
> Pakistan Army have been taught to counter India and sitting-ducks PAF have been taught to respond quickly against Indian intrusions only. (i.e- recent Indian helicopter held in Pakistan).
> 
> Amazing, how quickly respond to force Indian helicopter down without permission of high command, why can't same to NATO helicopters ?
> 
> PA with 28 martyers and sleeping PAF is full of jokes and defenceless, it will degraded their best reputations. _* Last time, radars something wrong on OBL raid---(blame on radar on/off switch) and now there is something wrong on communication !!!*_


SPADA is effective against helicopters and Aircrafts and i think Anza mk3 missiles are also effective against helicopters


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## Last Hope

ajpirzada said:


> "I have very clearly directed that any act of aggression will be responded to with full force, *regardless of the cost and consequences*." _(if anyone asks me, ill say that the bold part is the only thing which matters in this whole article)_



Well the future will show it to us. Five USAF F/A-18s and one AWAC were in Afghan airspace on the night of Abottabad agression. They were afraid of any retaliation and any sorties flown by PAF. _(Yes, PAF sent two F-16s but after the PMA was alerted)_.

Officers of Pakistan Air Force and comissioned personnal of ADA quoted, that the night of raid, a couples of hours before midnight, radars of ADA noticed some blips. Those were over Afghanistan, quite near to the border. _(Apparantly)_they disappeared. The ADA witnessed blips latter on, but those were over Afghanistan. Those were 5 jets (latter turned out to be loaded F-18s) and an AWAC aircraft. The US military accepts that they were afraid of PAF's might and counter measures, hence had an AWAC monitoring the operation whilst 5 F-18s were ready for backup in case _(PAF sent its jets)_. 

After that day, they grew stronger and lightier for another similar attack. But now after all Pakistan is doing, they cannot afford another attack anytime soon and till things are cooled down. Just hope these orders are a part of 
SOP and the orders have no expiration limit.



RaptorRX707 said:


> Well, Pakistan not going to purchase anytime soon. We can discuss the current resources which PA using now, not SAMs. All of these resources Anza or shoulder to shoulder missiles are ineffective and short ranges. Then we can't do anything to stop experienced Apache. Sorry, there is no point to discuss about SAMs, we currently don't have it.
> 
> Pakistan Army have been taught to counter India and sitting-ducks PAF have been taught to respond quickly against Indian intrusions only. (i.e- recent Indian helicopter held in Pakistan).
> 
> Amazing, how quickly respond to force Indian helicopter down without permission of high command, why can't same to NATO helicopters ?
> 
> PA with 28 martyers and sleeping PAF is full of jokes and defenceless, it will degraded their best reputations. _* Last time, radars something wrong on OBL raid---(blame on radar on/off switch) and now there is something wrong on communication !!!*_



The inital public report published by the PAF says the raid was between 300-400 meters from Afghan border and they couldn't scrammble any jet, as it was fairly close to border and can trigger a dogfight inside Afghanistan, which would result in deep damage. _(Personal input: NATO Choppers and Jets quite often break into Pakistani airspace and go back saying they forgot their route)_.

According to the same report, a Anti Aircraft Artillery post was quite near and it fired at the choppers, but it soon got under attack. The most disturbing part is, after 3 hours of intensive fight, with communication jammed and blips on radars, why wasn't reinforcement sent?!

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## TaimiKhan

OrionHunter said:


> Good God Almighty! Another twist in the tail!! *How did Pakistani officials not have known that their two posts, 'Volcano' and 'Boulder' were not occupied, clearing the air strike? *



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...stani-soldiers-aftermath-263.html#post2349592


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## Doctor09

we lack commitment and thats all ....... where there's is a will there's is a way


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## regular

RaptorRX707 said:


> Well, Pakistan not going to purchase anytime soon. We can discuss the current resources which PA using now, not SAMs. All of these resources Anza or shoulder to shoulder missiles are ineffective and short ranges. Then we can't do anything to stop experienced Apache. Sorry, there is no point to discuss about SAMs, we currently don't have it.
> 
> Pakistan Army have been taught to counter India and sitting-ducks PAF have been taught to respond quickly against Indian intrusions only. (i.e- recent Indian helicopter held in Pakistan).
> 
> Amazing, how quickly respond to force Indian helicopter down without permission of high command, why can't same to NATO helicopters ?
> 
> PA with 28 martyers and sleeping PAF is full of jokes and defenceless, it will degraded their best reputations. _* Last time, radars something wrong on OBL raid---(blame on radar on/off switch) and now there is something wrong on communication !!!*_


There is nothing wrong with radars and our communication problems but is definitely wrong are their heads of the PAF and military chiefs....


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## Awesome

Secur said:


> Deliberately leaked you mean ? ... Does NATO usually record every single video of its operation this way ?  Or PSYOPS has begun again ...



It may be deliberate. Although googling has revealed nothing and no TV channel whether Pakistani or foreign has come forward, but it seems like it was against the benefit of Nato since it seems republicans were behind the leak and some US channel has it. It would be a damaging blow to the Dems if this turns out to be a complete US fault and if Obama has to offer an apology after refusing to give one.

Moreover let me underscore - all rumors. Try to substantiate it if you can.


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## Emmie

RaptorRX707 said:


> PA with 28 martyers and sleeping PAF is full of jokes and defenceless, it will degraded their best reputations. _* Last time, radars something wrong on OBL raid---(blame on radar on/off switch) and now there is something wrong on communication !!!*_



Bhai do you want go for an open war with US/NATO? Is it hard for you to understand PAF is deliberately avoiding any confrontation with USAF/NATO/ISAF? On the other side of border we have USA and 39 other countries, they have better jets, even if we engage its we who are going to bear more losses warped with their enmity. Can you guarantee PAF jets won't enter into Afghanistan's territory while engaging opponent jets at just 300 meters distance from border?

I can't understand why some people are harping the very same tune again and again..

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## Awesome

Because what you're saying is like giving Carte Blanche to the US to kill anyone in Pakistan and we'll be like choro yaar, don't defend. Ahista ahista sab marjayenge...

History is evidence, that you have to face up to a bully, you can't cower away and expect the bully to go away. Aggressors have to be fought back, not only should the PAF been engaged but PAF's stated doctrine should have been engaged to take the war to enemy soil. If PAF couldn't be engaged due to any communication breakdown - baburs should have been fired onto Bagram airbase.

This excuse is no excuse.

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## ajpirzada

Asim Aquil said:


> choro yaar, don't defend. Ahista ahista sab marjayenge...



hahahahaah.... waisay thats not very unrealistic. its exactly that which is frustratin ppl across the border lol


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## Awesome

US gave wrong info before attack: Pakistan


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Army has the same problem of no air cover like they did in Kargil , accept it PAF is too weak. 

NATO can not find any route to supply oil for its forces accept for Pakistan.
1. Russia will not allow it
2, Iran out of question 
3, Pakistan should cut military and civil supply to Afghanistan so the civil fuel don't get in hands of NATO
4, Central Asian countries might help US but it will hurt Russian ego, that US has friends in its back yard. 

If they will use air , toooooooooo expensive. Its the perfect way to tell the bully to respect. 
Save PAF for IAF to fight for three days and that's the ability of PAF to fight for (fight a small war with its eastren boarder).

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

app jub tak peechay hat tay raho gay they will keep push u. it is upto u when u decide enough is enough

i hope it is now , i wish if we could have done this 10 years ago when we didnot have that much chaos 

TARIQ


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## fd24

Emmie said:


> Bhai do you want go for an open war with US/NATO? Is it hard for you to understand PAF is deliberately avoiding any confrontation with USAF/NATO/ISAF? On the other side of border we have USA and 39 other countries, they have better jets, even if we engage its we who are going to bear more losses warped with their enmity. Can you guarantee PAF jets won't enter into Afghanistan's territory while engaging opponent jets at just 300 meters distance from border?
> 
> I can't understand why some people are harping the very same tune again and again..



Their wont be an open war against Nato - both sides are not as daft as that but strategically it is now in the hands of the Pakistan to respond in the best possible manner. No doubt public emotions and feelings are running verry high. It must be channeled in the right direction and a strong forceful reaction is reuired and requested by our nations elite. I pray for the right response for all concerned.

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## Rig Vedic

hellfire said:


> do you think anyone cares? ... Ofcourse a go ahead was given by Pakistan, that is why for two hours you could not scramble your aircrafts for strikes back at air assets which attacked your troops. Why waste bandwidth? You guys have had it. All have sold you too down the drain



Easy there, dude ... why aggravate?


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## epinephrine

Emmie said:


> Bhai do you want go for an open war with US/NATO? Is it hard for you to understand PAF is deliberately avoiding any confrontation with USAF/NATO/ISAF? On the other side of border we have USA and 39 other countries, they have better jets, even if we engage its we who are going to bear more losses warped with their enmity. Can you guarantee PAF jets won't enter into Afghanistan's territory while engaging opponent jets at just 300 meters distance from border?
> 
> I can't understand why some people are harping the very same tune again and again..


tipu sultan once said"one day life of a lion is better than 100 years life of a jackal"
i think u like to be a jackal


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

do we have some kind of missiles ( shoulder fired ) that can take even the nata heli down

TARIQ


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## Sugarcane

epinephrine said:


> tipu sultan once said"one day life of a lion is better than 100 years life of a jackal"
> i think u like to be a jackal



Agha - You can't expect this kind of mentality from Ghadari or Kyo-ni


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

epinephrine said:


> tipu sultan once said"one day life of a lion is better than 100 years life of a jackal"
> i think u like to be a jackal



BHAI SHER KI EIK LAMHAY KI ZINDAGI JACKAL KI ABADI ZINDAGI SAY BEHTER HAY ( ab no wo sher rahay no wo jackal )

TARIQ


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## Devil Soul

*White House offers &#8216;sincere&#8217; condolences over Nato strike*
APP 
White House Press Secretary Jay Carney briefs reporters at the White House in Washington. &#8212; File Photo by AP

WASHINGTON: The White House has said it sincerely expressed condolences to Pakistan over loss of 24 soldiers in a Nato strike but indicated the US would wait for conclusions of investigations underway before reacting further to the border incident that has complicated its relations with the key regional country.

&#8220;Well, we are in the middle of an investigation &#8212; actually, at the early stages of an investigation &#8212; into what exactly happened. So I think that the expression of condolences for tragic loss of life conveys a sincere sentiment about our feelings, the President&#8217;s feelings and the administration&#8217;s feelings, and it goes to the importance of the relationship that we have with Pakistan,&#8221; President Barack Obama&#8217;s spokesman said.

Press Secretary Jay Carney dismissed as &#8220;utter nonsense&#8221; the suggestion in a report by The New York Times that President Obama was refraining from making a formal apology to Pakistan due to domestic political considerations.

Questioned at the daily briefing about whether the White House has apologised over the incident, which has evoked a strong reaction from Pakistan, Carney referred to the comments that President Obama sees it as a tragedy.

&#8220;We need to find the results of this investigation. We have offered our condolences. We have called it what it is, a tragic loss of life. And we anticipate results of the investigation to come when they&#8217;re ready,&#8221; he said, when asked if the White House considered it premature to offer an apology.

&#8220;It&#8217;s a matter of fact that I, speaking for the White House and the President, offered condolences on behalf of him, the administration, the American people, for the tragic loss of life &#8212; and it was a tragedy,&#8221; he responded to a question.

&#8220;And we have launched an investigation through CENTCOM, as well as ISAF, to find out exactly what transpired. But &#8212; maybe I&#8217;m pre-empting what your question was, but there was obviously no apology and there was an expression of condolences,&#8221; the spokesman added.

Carney found the headline of the media report as being at odds with the story but confirmed that there was a &#8220;suggestion from our embassy in Pakistan that a message of expressing condolences be taped.&#8221;

&#8220;We didn&#8217;t do that, but I personally got up here and expressed condolences on behalf of the President and the American people. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta has done the same thing. So that message has been delivered. But, again, the headline is at odds with the story.&#8221;

The White House spokesman said the US is working with Pakistan on the issue of border routes for Nato supplies, which have been closed in the aftermath of the November 26 attack on Pakistani check posts.

He said it is &#8220;vital&#8221; to American national security that the US continue to have cooperative relationship with Pakistan, especially in the fight against terror.

&#8220;We urge them to attend the conference in Bonn, and are working with them on our overall relationship. We understand that this is complicated by events, as has been the case at various times this year.

&#8220;But it&#8217;s an important relationship that we continue to work on, because it&#8217;s in the interest of the American people and our national security that we continue to work on it.&#8221;


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## Emmie

Asim Aquil said:


> Because what you're saying is like giving Carte Blanche to the US to kill anyone in Pakistan and we'll be like choro yaar, don't defend. Ahista ahista sab marjayenge...
> 
> History is evidence, that you have to face up to a bully, you can't cower away and expect the bully to go away. Aggressors have to be fought back, not only should the PAF been engaged but PAF's stated doctrine should have been engaged to take the war to enemy soil. If PAF couldn't be engaged due to any communication breakdown - baburs should have been fired onto Bagram airbase.
> 
> This excuse is no excuse.



I did not vindicate any aggression - neither I tried to filch Pakistan's right to retaliate nor I awarded US with Carte Blanche. I made a point about continuous unfounded criticism on range of issues including generals, radars, communication equipment etc. 

War is a last resort (regardless you win or loose) if all else fails. Pakistan is active on its all diplomatic channels, things are being sorted out diplomatically and politically. You are strategically very crucial for west, so isn't it better to exploit your position rather than going for an open conflict?.

Yeah, take appropriate measures to make sure incidents like November 26 are never dared again, revisit terms of engagement on WoT. If nothing works Badr is an example for you, meantime don't follow the lines of your enemies who want to see you war-ridden.

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## Emmie

epinephrine said:


> tipu sultan once said"one day life of a lion is better than 100 years life of a jackal"
> i think u like to be a jackal



Do me a favor read my previous posts on threads related to NATO attack you'll get my point.. Also refer to post 4239 of this thread


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

lanat tum per or tumahri administration per

when u.s citizen get killed blood is demanded and when kill ur partners u r ashamed of apologies 

cut their supplies forever and get out of this stupid american war and we will be fine

TARIQ


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## Awesome

Emmie said:


> I did not vindicate any aggression - neither I tried to filch Pakistan's right to retaliate nor I awarded US with Carte Blanche. I made a point about continuous unfounded criticism on range of issues including generals, radars, communication equipment etc.
> 
> War is a last resort (regardless you win or loose) if all else fails. Pakistan is active on its all diplomatic channels, things are being sorted out diplomatically and politically. You are strategically very crucial for west, so isn't it better to exploit your position rather than going for an open conflict?.
> 
> Yeah, take appropriate measures to make sure incidents like November 26 are never dared again, revisit terms of engagement on WoT. If nothing works Badr is an example for you, meantime don't follow the lines of your enemies who want to see you war-ridden.



So that means shoot down the Apache the next time it comes to kill Pakistanis right?

Tell me in simple terms, otherwise this exchange is more like the exchange Gillani had in the interview with ExpressNews.

*What will happen if there's an attack?
*
It will be unacceptable

*Does that mean you will retaliate?
*
I did not say there will be confrontation

*So what will happen exactly in the case of another attack?
*
It will be unacceptable

Seriously its there, youtube it. There is no harm in saying we will kill the attackers. Right of self-defence is fundamental human right. Only in Pakistan we have to fret over whether or not we have the right to not be killed.

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## Emmie

superkaif said:


> Their wont be an open war against Nato - both sides are not as daft as that but strategically it is now in the hands of the Pakistan to respond in the best possible manner. No doubt public emotions and feelings are running verry high. It must be channeled in the right direction and a strong forceful reaction is reuired and requested by our nations elite. I pray for the right response for all concerned.



Exactly sir, NATO/USA don't want any conflict with Pakistan, these attacks are just pressure tactics and thats it. Please refer to post #4239.

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## Emmie

Asim Aquil said:


> So that means shoot down the Apache the next time it comes to kill Pakistanis right?
> 
> Tell me in simple terms, otherwise this exchange is more like the exchange Gillani had in the interview with ExpressNews.
> 
> *What will happen if there's an attack?
> *
> It will be unacceptable
> 
> *Does that mean you will retaliate?
> *
> I did not say there will be confrontation
> 
> *So what will happen exactly in the case of another attack?
> *
> It will be unacceptable
> 
> Seriously its there, youtube it. There is no harm in saying we will kill the attackers. Right of self-defence is fundamental human right. Only in Pakistan we have to fret over whether or not we have the right to not be killed.



You missed a point, I highlight that for you.



> I did not vindicate any aggression - neither I tried to filch Pakistan's right to retaliate nor I awarded US with Carte Blanche. I made a point about continuous unfounded criticism on range of issues including generals, radars, communication equipment etc.
> 
> War is a last resort (regardless you win or loose) if all else fails. Pakistan is active on its all diplomatic channels, things are being sorted out diplomatically and politically. You are strategically very crucial for west, so isn't it better to exploit your position rather than going for an open conflict?.
> 
> Yeah, take appropriate measures to make sure incidents like November 26 are never dared again, revisit terms of engagement on WoT. *If nothing works Badr is an example for you*, meantime don't follow the lines of your enemies who want to see you war-ridden.



I referred to Ghazwa-e-Badr..


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## Devil Soul

*Nato plans to quell Pakistan-based insurgents: Guardian*
Agencies
LONDON: Nato commanders are planning a substantial offensive in eastern Afghanistan aimed at insurgent groups based in Pakistan, involving an escalation of aerial attacks on insurgent sanctuaries, and have not ruled out cross-border raids with ground troops, The Guardian newspaper reported on Friday.

The aim of offensive over next two years is to reduce threat represented by Pakistan-based groups loyal to insurgent leaders like Haqqani clan, Mullah Nazir & Hafiz Gul Bahadur.

Nato hopes to reduce level of attacks in the eastern provinces clustered around Kabul to the point where they could be contained by Afghan security forces after transition in 2014. The move is likely to add to already tense atmosphere following recent border post attack by Nato helicopters that resulted in death of 24 Pakistani soldiers.

While drawing down forces in Helmand & Kandahar, the US will step up its presence in eastern provinces bordering Pakistan, bringing long-festering issue of insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistan tribal areas to a head. Message being given to Pakistan military is that if it cannot or will not eliminate insurgent havens, US forces will attempt job themselves, report said.

It is unclear to what extent killing of 24 Pakistan soldiers in Nato air strikes last Saturday will have on Nato strategy. An investigation is underway into the incident. As a consequence, Pakistan closed supply routes used by Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) and barred the US from using a Pakistani air base to launch drones.

Isaf commander, General John Allen, said the need to confront sanctuaries in Pakistan was &#8220;one of the reasons we are shifting our operations to the east&#8221;.

In an interview in Kabul, Allen, a US marine, did not give specifics of strategy and said nothing about cross-border operations.

According to The Guardian, Allen said he did not know what long-term consequences of last Saturday&#8217;s clash would be, describing it as a &#8220;tragedy&#8221;, but made clear that push to the east would continue.

&#8220;Ultimately outcome we hope to achieve in the east is a reduction of insurgent networks to the point where Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) can handle them, reducing them in 2012, if necessary going after them in 2013,&#8221; Allen said.

&#8220;I won&#8217;t go into specifics of operations but as we consolidate our holdings in the south and as population centers there in Helmand River valley and in (Kandahar,) we will conduct substantial operations in the east idea being to expand security zone around Kabul. In particular we are going to pay lot of attention to south of Kabul, Wardak, Logar, Ghazni, Zabul.

Because in the end if you have a population in the south that feels secure and it&#8217;s secured by ANSF, and you have a population in east and around centre of gravity of Kabul, and those two are connected by a road so you have freedom of movement, you have a pretty good outcome.&#8221;


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## Irfan Baloch

It seems that some people are suffering from SMS (selective memory syndrome) its been clarified many times before this attack that the NATO forces don&#8217;t have the mandate to launch operations inside Pakistan, the Pakistan army shall take over in such cases, whether chooses to break the ROE and the understanding is the other point but Pakistan army would never have had given a go ahead to come inside let alone attack its own positions.

I know it doesn&#8217;t matter to you guys because you don&#8217;t care, you already said it few times, you intent is to score points and talk cheap and get the kick out of it. EVEN if the Pakistan army had given them a go ahead to come inside Pakistan, there was no chance to give them the clear to attack not one but two check posts and not just any checks posts but ones that were manned by almost two companies.

Every new statement that is coming out of NATO&#8217;s behind is basically negating their last statement.

-First it was a hot pursuit of Taliban and they couldn&#8217;t tell if they were within Afghanistan or crossed into Pakistan. They back up their claim on the bases of some Afghan border policeman who might not even exist
-Second, they blame the Taliban by leading them into Pakistani check posts (no mention of getting a clear from Pakistan).
-Then they admit that the NATO strike (could have) resulted in Pakistani casualties (no mention of Pakistani distress calls).
-And now they maintain that they were given a clear by Pakistan army itself to attack their two posts? Remember that Gen Jacobs is talking about &#8220;a tactical situation arising&#8221; that let to air strike. Did he care to say on 26th that this tactical situation was an all clear from Pakistan and why are they making noise now? 

God bless the free information and God bless the whistle blowers and Julian Julian Assange and god bless the American soldiers of conscious who blow the lid off the cover ups and lies of the NATO in Iraq and Afghanistan. 


No no no, don&#8217;t worry, I am not expecting you guys to digest it, because that&#8217;s not even your purpose to post here, I know it and many people know it why you are sprouting garbage, but I am saying what I am saying for the sake of the rest of the people who can get a picture different from what the NATO force is drawing. And it keeps changing. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but one day the truth will come out. As for now there is 99% chance that NATO will blame Pakistan and absolve itself from any wrong doing but that&#8217;s nothing new and that wont stop us to say what we know.

You keep on trolling over the inaction of PAF yet you don&#8217;t question NATO that despite having the best equipment in the world was unable to distinguish between Taliban and regular troops. Troops that had established a proper dug in posts with communication equipments and Flag. Taliban don&#8217;t fight in dug in positions, they never had in for the past 10 years. The pilots that were engaging the both check posts could see it all and hear it all yet they continued, maybe they were following the direct orders and were continue to do it even if they were not initially briefed on what their intended target was.

But the man thing is that there are survivers and there are witnesses dispite this murder, so whatever the story, whether it suits NATO or suit&#8217;s the Pakistan army, it will come out from the soldiers who lived the day to tell the tale.

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## Secur

Every NATO report is gospel truth for some who accept it as being from a divine source and thus infallible despite it contradicting earlier reports ... Let them hallucinate and live in denial mode ... Who cares about them seriously ?

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## regular

Asim Aquil said:


> Because what you're saying is like giving Carte Blanche to the US to kill anyone in Pakistan and we'll be like choro yaar, don't defend. Ahista ahista sab marjayenge...
> 
> History is evidence, that you have to face up to a bully, you can't cower away and expect the bully to go away. Aggressors have to be fought back, not only should the PAF been engaged but PAF's stated doctrine should have been engaged to take the war to enemy soil. If PAF couldn't be engaged due to any communication breakdown - baburs should have been fired onto Bagram airbase.
> This excuse is no excuse.


Yes! absolutely right! but we can't do anything....Looks like our whole Army's elite as well as PAF are on US payrolls including our ruling elites in Civilians govt......but our poor civilians , soldiers and officers are getting slain everyday by these evil US/NATO aggressors.....very hopless situation is this for everybody who loves our country.......

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## unicorn

[video]http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/391148/june-30-2011/colbert-report--formidable-opponent---pakistan[/video]

After watching these sort of propaganda videos it seems very logical why American people thinks wrong about us.

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## regular

unicorn said:


> [video]http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/391148/june-30-2011/colbert-report--formidable-opponent---pakistan[/video]
> 
> After watching these sort of propaganda videos it seems very logical why American people thinks wrong about us.


Oh Okay! ..hey but they missed that their own US govt is making and sending all these terrorists from Afghanistan all over the world....


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## iPhone

it seems Obama and co. are determined to embarass PA in front of Pakistanis and the world. If OBL raid and this attack wasn't enough, today they threw in another bit that not only Pantagon contacted PA beforehand but also got clearence for the attack. And PA is so incompetent that they did not even know that their posts were occupied or not.

I know, they didn't say that, but you gotta read in between the lines sometimes to get the message being sent.

PA is gonna pay for their refusal to go into NWA. PA is gonna pay for NATO/US failures in afgh. Pakistan army is gonna pay for it in terms of human and finincial losses as well as honerable and diginatary ones. 

That's why they come with a totally contradictary story to that of PA's. It's a classic cover up tactic. You wait for the first person's account of event and come up with a totally different one entraping the first person. It becomes your word against the other.


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## Mabs

Pakistan would have been much better off taking the covert way rather than this overt display of bravado. Pak can and has made US's stay in the Afghanistan very unpleasant, it could have just up the the ante after the Salala Incident which would have fetched the desired results, discreetly, but the problem is, Pak Army and the people want to SEE the US being punished. We have been told for so long that we are a nuclear power and nothing could harm us that it is impossible for the people to even conjure up the idea that we are helpless. Kayani's order may heal the egos of his men but that's pretty much all it will do.

I have always maintained that wars are fought with weapons but won with economics. Pakistan is not out of options militarily but economically. Muhammad Ali wasn't the biggest guy in the ring but he hung in there til the end. We can initiate and fight a war with the US - the question is for how long.

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

nobody is asking for war but can somebody tell us if that lose would be the last ? if not then we must cry loud and protest to let the others we r suffering. otherwise these trigger happy terrorists will come and kill on normal bases. 

is it acceptable?

TARIQ


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## Hulk

The news today about NATO planning to launch sustained attack on eastern Afghanistan to reduce taliban seems to have a relation. They are planning to clean- up this side. It is beginning I guess.

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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan elected not to participate in joint NATO attack investigation: US DoD*
By Huma Imtiaz
Published: December 3, 2011
WASHINGTON: US on Friday said that Pakistan had been invited to join an investigation into the cross border North Atlantic Treaty Organistaion (NATO) bombing of a Pakistani check post. However, Pakistan had elected not to participate in the investigation.
A NATO air strike &#8211; which Pakistan terms as &#8216;deliberate&#8217;, took place in the early hours of November 26, when NATO air craft providing close air support to ground troops attacked a Pakistani check post and then subsequent support troops which rushed to the site located in Mohmand on Pak-Afghan border. The attack killed at least 24 Pakistani soldiers and wounded a further 12.
(Read: &#8216;Unprovoked&#8217;: DGMO gives details of aerial assault)
Addressing a press conference at the Department of Defense, the Pentagon Press Secretary George Little in response to a question said that the relationship with Pakistan was critical. &#8220;We are partners with Pakistan&#8230;We will be working over time to resolve our differences over this and other matters.&#8221;
Captain John Kirby, the Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, said that the NATO airstrike &#8220;has had a chilling effect on our relationship with the Pakistani military.&#8221;
Referring to General Kayani&#8217;s letter to his troops, Captain Kirby said, &#8220;Every sovereign nation has the right of self-defense and the right to order their troops to defend themselves. So do we. We respect that right of his.&#8221;
(Read: Kayani&#8217;s bold move: &#8216;Pakistani troops will return fire if Nato attacks again&#8217
In response to a question about Pakistan&#8217;s decision to cease co-operation with the US and Afghan forces along the border, Captain Kirby said that they hoped that they would be able to continue the kind of coordination and communication that they had been working on with Pakistan before this incident. &#8220;There had been a lot of effort put into our coordination on border control centres with Pakistanis before this incident, we hope that the same level of effort can continue.&#8221;
Regarding the NATO airstrike, Pentagon Press Secretary George Little reiterated, that this was &#8220;not in any way, shape or form an intentional attack by US military on Pakistan.&#8221; Captain John Kirby said that the incident was a military engagement, and declined to provide further comments, saying the matter was still under investigation.
The two spokespersons also declined to comment directly on the effect of the NATO supply routes closure on US troops, calling it a logistical matter. Captain Kirby said that the US had alternatives and options.
Warren Weinstein and al Qaeda
In response to a question on Warren Weinstein and the authenticity of al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zwahiri&#8217;s claim that the kidnapped aid worker was in their custody, Captain Kirby said that they could not comment on the al Qaeda report yet.
(Read: Al Qaeda claims kidnapping of Weinstein in Pakistan)
George Little though called for Weinstein&#8217;s immediate release.
Pakistan elected not to participate in joint NATO attack investigation: US DoD &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## Abu Zolfiqar

ahan so Pakistan shouldnt take part in the investigation but meanwhile it should be spear-headed by the organization itself which was instrumental in attacking 24 of our troops?

oh that's rich!

no we should take part in the investigation in my view --- Pakistan should delegate military and civilian fact-finding officials in my view

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## jynxed

Killing Pakistani Soldiers » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


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## Abu Zolfiqar

indianrabbit said:


> The news today about NATO planning to launch sustained attack on eastern Afghanistan to reduce taliban seems to have a relation. They are planning to clean- up this side. It is beginning I guess.



no, actually it's something Pakistan has called for - for quite some time; but at this point, too little and too late.

while terrorism is still afflicting Pakistan, the scales and bravado of the attacks are down dramatically --but challenges and threats are still very much there today and will be for some time.......but Pakistan single-handedly did something right which all the combined mighty NATO armies could hardly achieve outside of Kabul. 


NATO should know that any repeat of last Sunday's incident would inflame Pakistanis and lead things to a totally different and unbefore seen dimension; if NATO's policy is to "fan" a direct, no-holds-barred confrontation ---then they are doing a good job and on the right track. The only difference here is that Pakistan has knowledge of the lands and has "demographics" on its side.

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## VelocuR

Emmie said:


> Bhai do you want go for an open war with US/NATO? Is it hard for you to understand PAF is deliberately avoiding any confrontation with USAF/NATO/ISAF? On the other side of border *we have USA and 39 other countries, they have better jets, even if we engage its we who are going to bear more losses warped with their enmity.* Can you guarantee PAF jets won't enter into Afghanistan's territory while engaging opponent jets at just 300 meters distance from border?



Yaar I understood. We can accept to let NATO continue to attack more on Pakistan borders and PA after taking advantages some experiments or test waters. It is appreciated Pakistan Army destory some of the terrorists camps in Waziristan and then NATO surprisingly attack Pakistan Army, don't we see big pictures?

Maybe next step NATO will bomb on PAF bases locations, still no response? *Then there is something wrong on enginess ? *Where is the response guarantee "attack on Pakistan would be construed as an attack on China." ?? The world see Pakistan a very shame embarrassing country, China can't do anything. 

I discussed with Chinese friend today, 'do you think US attack Pakistan to draw China's attention or contain? He said it is basically hard to say if they try to draw China's attention. It is just odd NATO attacked Pakistan.' 



> I predict-
> 
> PAF attack by chechyan terrorist or other terrorists similar to Mehran attacks (officials have no clue or data informations)
> Kiyani will be assassinated by terrorists or sympathizers
> Nuke attack (false flags)


Chaloo koi baat nahein, we will be fine. I am ashamed of being Pakistani due to the 28 martyers and forty thousand civilians deaths for no reasons. *Please accept today we can permit US/NATO mischevious actions on Pakistan next weeks or so.*

Regular exercises, airshow or nukes/babur test must be halt immediately to save money for economy. 

zindabad bravo.

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## VelocuR

^^ I want to make it clear, I haven't ask VCheng to thank my post or pointscores, I didn't ask for it. It is matter of my voices or criticism on Pakistan in my own independent thought. I know, some of them are afraid to criticize Pakistan.

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## jynxed

Raptor 
You have tons of questions but you did not mention any solutions? 
No picture this 
Imagine..pakistan has a strong economy, leaders are in their right minds, pakistan has been progressing for past 30 years. Industry is back bone of pakistan and inventions are opening up the world gates for us 
with that said now imagine the military power and might of this pakistan 
now sit back and put answers to your questions with this imaginative pakistan 
makes sense right you like what you see you love every single answer right ? ? 

Well there you have it 
Pakistan is a re-animated corpse it can only do few functions and thats about it you just can't show up to a tank battle with stones in your hand its just not going to work 

Again to my beating of drums.........Think of ways to start changing and start acting on those while you have a chance instead of asking questions and asking the Chinese to answer them for you 

"Khudi ko kar blund itna ke har taqdeer se pehley....khuda bande se khud pooche bata teri raza keya hai" understand the real meaning hiding in these 2 sentences

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## Hellfire

Secur said:


> *Yes i can , soldiers rely on orders from the high command which unfortunately wasn't given ... PAF again has to take orders from AHQ ... Nobody was allowed to retaliate so they didn't ... The same isn't the case now ...*



No you cant answer. You are telling about something about which I have a very good idea. The standing operating procedure (SOP) to ANY soldier of ANY nation on ANY border is that observe and report. Now, when the air assault must have started the information would have conveyed to your higher brass. The same does not take time and is disseminated to all concerned within minutes. And SOP for any troops on an active border area is to retaliate if attacked.

Ok for arguments sake I accept that orders were not forthcoming from your higher headquarters .... when they came to know that your troops were killed, even then your armed forces did not have the guts to retaliate? DOnt you find that a bit hard to swallow? I certainly do. Knowing the PA very well .... its not some rag tag outfit ...... it has a very clear cut SOP in place and will care hoots to obtain go ahead from GoP.



Secur said:


> *And yeah if NATO has to stay in Afghanistan till 2014 and bring a face saving end to this conflict , they have to care what Pakistan says or does ... Over 40% of NATO supplies pass through Torkhum and Chaman ... You think this is a joke ? *



They dont need to save any face. They have managed to attain a majority of their objectives there .... and as for supplies .... its just a minor issue ....



Secur said:


> *Russia has already started blackmailing USA over NDN for European missile defense shield ... NDN can only be kept operational until 2014 ( Russia doesn't support NATO presence in Afghanistan after 2014 )*



Let me get you in on a secret .... even Russians dont like Muslim fundamentalism and find the present mess in Afghanistan to their advantage for two reasons (i) Its payback to NATO and US for their intervention only this time they dont need to arm the Talibs, they just have to laugh their heads off (ii) As long as NATO and US forces operate there, the Talibs and other good guys of Islamic Jehad Inc dont have time to divert trained cadres or train cadres for Chechnya which I must tell as another secret is a Muslim province having an active insurgency with terror strikes a regular feature in Dagestan and Ingushetia .... surprise why Russia is just letting US be there? Also the Russians are allowing movement of material and logistics through CARS for US and NATO and the ABM issue is just an attempt to wrangle a concession from them as part of payment



Secur said:


> *... Bon conference is meaningless without the participation of Pakistan ... Expect continuous civil war in Afghanistan if Pakistan refuses to co-operate ... Nobody cares about Pakistan yet foreign ministers of NATO countries are regularly calling their Pakistani counterparts and pleading for co-operation  Denial mode isn't good for anyone ...*



Why dont you get it? No one wants a war. You think that when Pakistan initiates ceasefire violations in LC area to push in terrorists, India does not act just because we are scared of you? Nope dear. Its because on a large part you hold your ceasefire and that means more than 90% times your troops respect it. That means peace for both sides there. The terrain and climate is harsh enough.It allows us to concentrate on our CI/CT operations without an active LC.

When the international community calls pakistan .. its not out of fear, its a matter of convenience .... a cooperative Pakistan is better than one which will further foment trouble .... its not out of recognition of Pakistan as a peacemaker that all call them, its out of it being a rogue which will undermine peace efforts that you are called. You think that is something to be proud of and something that denotes respect for you? Its more like the irritating kid who needs to be handelled to ensure he does not spoil the mood of the household.

No one can change the misfortune of Afghanistan of having Pakistan as a neighbour ... a neighbour who undermines all efforts at peace ..... 

Like you said Denial more isnt good for anyone, so better accept that as a fact

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## Hellfire

Irfan Baloch said:


> what really pains the trolls is that the Afghan majority group and the Pakistani tribal areas, KP and Balochistan share the same ethnic group that have relations on both sides of the border
> 
> so what these guys say and want does matter. Afghanistan doesn&#8217;t just rely on NATO supplies but also on food and other trade goods that comes from Pakistan, even during the Soviet occupation.
> 
> the Afghans must be "thanking" these trigger happy pillocks for causing all the disruption and will curse NATO if the whole border is blocked from any form of transportation or trade.
> 
> NATO might find ways to reroute their supplies and drone strikes but millions of Afghans cant. thats a fact.
> 
> Trolls find it very noble to blame the inaction of the PAF but just consider for a moment, why did NATO did what it did that needed PAF to respond?
> 
> the only parties laughing here are the Trolls that live their short troll life before getting banned or the terrorists who say FU very much to NATO for removing the posts that were making their incursions into KP very difficult



Oh just go ahead and accuse others of being troll when even the basic considerations of strategic impact are beyond the capabilities of your faculties ....

by being a moderator ... its incumbent upon you to be objective in your approach ... if you want to ban someone do so by all means ..... why harp on it?

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## President Camacho

Pakistan has right to self-defense so does US: Pentagon

As a sovereign nation Pakistan has the right to self-defense, so does the US, the Pentagon has asserted amid reports from Islamabad that Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani had issued direction that his commanders on the Af.Pak border can return fire without permission.

"I''ve seen the comments attributed to General Kayani. I''m certainly not going to speak for him or for the government of Pakistan. But every sovereign nation has the right of self-defense and the right to order their troops to defend themselves. That''s what my understanding is what he did: He reiterated their right of self-defense. *We certainly respect that right of his*. *We have it as well*," Pentagon spokesman Navy Capt John Kirby said.

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## notorious_eagle

hellfire said:


> do you think anyone cares? do you think that once the air assets of NATO started attacking your positions, the same was not relayed back to the respective formation headquarters? Do you think all soldiers were killed simultaneously that message that they were under air attack could not be passed? If anyone in Pakistan believes that then they deserve to be treated like crap like has been done.



Formation headquarter was notified quite early on when Apache's and C130's engaged PA troops. How do you think all channels of communication were activated so quickly to inform ISAF to call off the attack as they were attacking friendlies. No one in Pakistan believes that formation headquarter was in total darkness, this is just a face saving tactic that the Army is using. 



hellfire said:


> US coolly killed your troops, roamed around the area for 02 hours and you guys could do noting except make impotent statements .... and praise your COAS's stupid statement of giving permission to troops to retaliate. In all likelihood your top brass including your Army Brass was in loop and they did nothing knowing they can do nothing. You engage US forces in air battle once, and then you see the fun.




Buddy, get this through your head. There is no nation in the world that can match the might of the US when it comes to military muscle, if it was an Indian Army Post, the results would not have been any different. Both the posts used all available weapons in their arsenal to try and engage the Apaches; but using rifle fire and 12.7mm AA guns against the Apache is like throwing stones at a T90 tank. We are quite well aware of our shortcomings and PA did the right thing by not sending additional resources as facts are, in a conventional head on fight we would have simply been clobbered. 



hellfire said:


> Ofcourse a go ahead was given by Pakistan, that is why for two hours you could not scramble your aircrafts for strikes back at air assets which attacked your troops. Why waste bandwidth? You guys have had it. All have sold you too down the drain



For argument sakes PAF issues a scramble and launches interceptors to take down these choppers. First of all they were very close to the border so most likely their wreckage would have fallen in Afghanistan which would have definitely been a headache. Second of all, lets say if PAF did take down these choppers. How do you think the other side would have reacted, they were most likely backed by F15's and F16's whom were flying CAP's close by. ISAF after this would have rendered PAF into a flying club by clobbering them from the sea and land. PAF made absolutely the right decision by not launching interceptors and engaging these choppers as the losses would have been unbearable compared to the 24 innocent lives lost. 

Pakistan in my opinion is taking absolutely the right steps by handling this issue diplomatically. Don't you see the reaction from the other side, they have gone out of their way to accommodate Pakistan and contacted Pakistan on every level to soothe the relations. The Secretary of State has personally urged Pakistan to attend the Bonn conference, it goes to show that Pakistan has emerged as the wiser one after this incident. I can assure you that if those choppers would have been downed, the reaction from the world would have been much more hostile and the possibility of a full on shooting war between NATO and Pakistan would have been very real.

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## pakdefender

President Camacho said:


> Pakistan has right to self-defense so does US: Pentagon
> 
> As a sovereign nation Pakistan has the right to self-defense, so does the US, the Pentagon has asserted amid reports from Islamabad that Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani had issued direction that his commanders on the Af.Pak border can return fire without permission.
> 
> "I''ve seen the comments attributed to General Kayani. I''m certainly not going to speak for him or for the government of Pakistan. But every sovereign nation has the right of self-defense and the right to order their troops to defend themselves. That''s what my understanding is what he did: He reiterated their right of self-defense. *We certainly respect that right of his*. *We have it as well*," Pentagon spokesman Navy Capt John Kirby said.



Pakistan Army has witnessed first hand the the cowardly nature of the Americans in Somalia .. they went into Somalia to bully the black people there but they got booted out and in the end their bums were saved by a Pakistani unit.


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## Hellfire

notorious_eagle said:


> *Formation headquarter was notified quite early on when Apache's and C130's engaged PA troops. How do you think all channels of communication were activated so quickly to inform ISAF to call off the attack as they were attacking friendlies. No one in Pakistan believes that formation headquarter was in total darkness, this is just a face saving tactic that the Army is using.*



Exactly my point notorious! Thanks. It was in response to few posters praising Gen Kayani's statement that is all. Why praise a statement that is too late in the day and nothing more than meant for public consumption?

I have quoted the exact people to whom I have been replying. Gen Kayani said the same thing post-Abottabad that any agression by US/ISAF/NATO next time will be retaliated against. That is what I am saying. Why just make statements if you cant do it?




notorious_eagle said:


> *Buddy, get this through your head. There is no nation in the world that can match the might of the US when it comes to military muscle, if it was an Indian Army Post, the results would not have been any different. Both the posts used all available weapons in their arsenal to try and engage the Apaches; but using rifle fire and 12.7mm AA guns against the Apache is like throwing stones at a T90 tank. We are quite well aware of our shortcomings and PA did the right thing by not sending additional resources as facts are, in a conventional head on fight we would have simply been clobbered.*



Totally agreed! Infact that is what i was trying to tell secur ... that this is all hogwash ..... from 1st second on everyone was in loop so one cant deny that as a fact and making statements subsequently that permission has been given to troops to retaliate is CRAP!!!!! SOP is observe and report .... and if crossing take place/they engage to reply effectively ..... 

Hell your troops raise a red flag when we approach the LC and we do the same as a mutual warning ... or fire a tracer air burst .... thats SOP .... and in case either side crosses there are standing instructions to engage WITHOUT reversion for permission to higher headquarters ... the dear poster says no permission came !!!! It is exasperating ..... how can one be so naive .... and a moderator joins in to call me a troll and threatens a ban .... what nonsense ... if one tries to logically reason out, you get a boot .. just coz of my flag 

In another thread I took on an Indian poster about his claims which were crap .... this is PDF .... supposedly most professional site ... yet you see strange people here



notorious_eagle said:


> *For argument sakes PAF issues a scramble and launches interceptors to take down these choppers. First of all they were very close to the border so most likely their wreckage would have fallen in Afghanistan which would have definitely been a headache. Second of all, lets say if PAF did take down these choppers. How do you think the other side would have reacted, they were most likely backed by F15's and F16's whom were flying CAP's close by. ISAF after this would have rendered PAF into a flying club by clobbering them from the sea and land. PAF made absolutely the right decision by not launching interceptors and engaging these choppers as the losses would have been unbearable compared to the 24 innocent lives lost. *



Exactly a point have been trying to make. Thank you .... if I had said this .... Mr Irfan Bloch the Moderator would have labelled me a troll ... !!!! I totally agree with you. The US did this ... and by making such a statement the COAS has played into their hands ..... now the US has just said 'Pakistan is a sovereign nation and has a right to defend itself and so do we' in response to his statement. It has done nothing but to call his bluff over it ... COAS should have just shut up and not made such a statement. Now the PA will loose face next time round. And next time round will occur again.



notorious_eagle said:


> *Pakistan in my opinion is taking absolutely the right steps by handling this issue diplomatically. Don't you see the reaction from the other side, they have gone out of their way to accommodate Pakistan and contacted Pakistan on every level to soothe the relations. The Secretary of State has personally urged Pakistan to attend the Bonn conference, it goes to show that Pakistan has emerged as the wiser one after this incident. I can assure you that if those choppers would have been downed, the reaction from the world would have been much more hostile and the possibility of a full on shooting war between NATO and Pakistan would have been very real.*



I agree on that. But the confrontational attitude adopted by GoP and PA's Chief is not helpful as had they accepted apology and taken a hard stand, the thing would have been more effective. Now its going to drive into US that Pakistan is playing a hardball and if push comes to a shove, we both know who ends up loosing!!!

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## pakdefender

hellfire said:


> Exactly my point notorious! Thanks. It was in response to few posters praising Gen Kayani's statement that is all. Why praise a statement that is too late in the day and nothing more than meant for public consumption?
> 
> I have quoted the exact people to whom I have been replying. Gen Kayani said the same thing post-Abottabad that any agression by US/ISAF/NATO next time will be retaliated against. That is what I am saying. Why just make statements if you cant do it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agreed! Infact that is what i was trying to tell secur ... that this is all hogwash ..... from 1st second on everyone was in loop so one cant deny that as a fact and making statements subsequently that permission has been given to troops to retaliate is CRAP!!!!! SOP is observe and report .... and if crossing take place/they engage to reply effectively .....
> 
> Hell your troops raise a red flag when we approach the LC and we do the same as a mutual warning ... or fire a tracer air burst .... thats SOP .... and in case either side crosses there are standing instructions to engage WITHOUT reversion for permission to higher headquarters ... the dear poster says no permission came !!!! It is exasperating ..... how can one be so naive .... and a moderator joins in to call me a troll and threatens a ban .... what nonsense ... if one tries to logically reason out, you get a boot .. just coz of my flag
> 
> In another thread I took on an Indian poster about his claims which were crap .... this is PDF .... supposedly most professional site ... yet you see strange people here
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly a point have been trying to make. Thank you .... if I had said this .... Mr Irfan Bloch the Moderator would have labelled me a troll ... !!!! I totally agree with you. The US did this ... and by making such a statement the COAS has played into their hands ..... now the US has just said 'Pakistan is a sovereign nation and has a right to defend itself and so do we' in response to his statement. It has done nothing but to call his bluff over it ... COAS should have just shut up and not made such a statement. Now the PA will loose face next time round. And next time round will occur again.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree on that. But the confrontational attitude adopted by GoP and PA's Chief is not helpful as had they accepted apology and taken a hard stand, the thing would have been more effective. Now its going to drive into US that Pakistan is playing a hardball and if push comes to a shove, we both know who ends up loosing!!!



dont get over excited , Pakistan can stand its ground and take down its enemies , we have the capability to do so and the enemies know this ( including india ) had this not been the case the blood thristy enemies of Pakistan would have attacked us long time back


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## F.O.X

hellfire said:


> Yes, everyone knows who the master of Taliban is ... that is why everyone engages the master to drive sense into them. What you face is the effect of your own policies. Now you have adopted a policy to send into J&K people who are convicted of crime in Pakistan to fight in lieu of their jail time. You are infact criminalizing the whole issue .... and in garb of Kashmiri struggle ... similarly in Afghanistan you are fomenting trouble and receiving payment for it too ..... !!! And you wont allow peace in Afghanistan except with your own stooge in power there ...



And every knows who is the master of TTP & BLA, Right ? 

We as Nations have to safeguard our national interest ,we dont care if you like it or not , to us our interests are most important , if Taliban can ensure that No indian will be able to come in afg & threat our interests that's good for us we will support them , if Karazi can ensure this we will support him which he certainly is not capable of . So yes if Taliban can safeguard our interest we would very much like to see them in power . and we will defiantly do every thing to remove Karazi from his chair . it is just as simple as that .

Even though this discussion has nothing to do with Kashmir but as always you have to change the topic . but well lets see , Kashmir is a disputed territory , and since we claim it is ours we will do every thing to get it back , we pretty much dont care if you like it or not . 

Now stick to the current Topic.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RaptorRX707 said:


> Regular exercises, airshow or nukes/babur test must be halt immediately to save money for economy.
> 
> zindabad bravo.



when was the last time you saw fighter aircrafts in large numbers flying formation overhead and tanks down Jinnah avenue during Defence day or Independence day parade? 

ministers (hundreds of them) flying first class to countries and staying at 6 star hotels for meaningless photo-ops and meanwhile a few exercises with friendlys (all within limited defence budget) can't take place?

a lot of the exercises as of late (namely with Chinese) have been in Pakistan --which has saved the expenses of travelling and hauling combat and other essential gear


as for earlier part of your post (i agree with many things u said) --- point of all this is to show we WILL not tolerate attacks by NATO on Pakistan soil. That's why unlike before -- we've closed both supply routes and are limiting cooperation with them. 

Unlike before, this is not a "unilateral" decision by the so-dubbed "deep state" (or whatever they call it)

it's a largely popular decision, taken by the ruling coalition government of Pakistan. . . 


i don't think the 'alliance' will end, though it's certainly at more than just a "make or break" period......things could get real ugly or they could calm down if NATO acknowledges its f*ck up and takes steps that will satisfy Pakistani anger and disgust ---most importantly justice for the people (civilians and military) and their families who have been affected by NATOs gross negligence and callousness.

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## notorious_eagle

hellfire said:


> I agree on that. But the confrontational attitude adopted by GoP and PA's Chief is not helpful as had they accepted apology and taken a hard stand, the thing would have been more effective. Now its going to drive into US that Pakistan is playing a hardball and if push comes to a shove, we both know who ends up loosing!!!



Dont look too much into these statements, they are meant more for domestic consumption rather than war fighting strategy. You are forgetting one thing, General Kayani is one of the most cooled headed COAS there is. He looks at all options on the table before making a move. A great strategist and a very fine soldier. He was the one that was largely responsible for making sure that war did not break out between India and Pakistan during the 2001 stand off. He knows what the balance of power is and will never confront NATO in a full head on war. Only a fool fights a battle he knows he cant win. America is very well aware of the leverage Pakistan maintains and without Pakistan's support there can never be peace in Afghanistan. Its because of this leverage US leaders have gone through damage control phase and are trying to make contact with Pakistan on every level. This might have been a tactical defeat for Pakistan but by no means was it a strategic defeat for Pakistan as Pakistan is far from being knocked down.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

i can name at least 4 initiatives off the top of my head undertaken by the armed services collectively that have saved Pakistan exchequer a huge amount of valuable (limited) funds

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## Abu Zolfiqar

notorious_eagle said:


> Dont look too much into these statements, they are meant more for domestic consumption rather than war fighting strategy. You are forgetting one thing, General Kayani is one of the most cooled headed COAS there is. He looks at all options on the table before making a move. A great strategist and a very fine soldier. He was the one that was largely responsible for making sure that war did not break out between India and Pakistan during the 2001 stand off. He knows what the balance of power is and will never confront NATO in a full head on war. Only a fool fights a battle he knows he cant win. America is very well aware of the leverage Pakistan maintains and without Pakistan's support there can never be peace in Afghanistan. Its because of this leverage US leaders have gone through damage control phase and are trying to make contact with Pakistan on every level. This might have been a tactical defeat for Pakistan but by no means was it a strategic defeat for Pakistan as Pakistan is far from being knocked down.



on both levels NATO has failed, in its campaign overall

especially if eradicating terrorism from the REGION was the GENUINE reason for this campaign in the first place! But don't we damn know that already.


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## BATMAN

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i can name at least 4 initiatives off the top of my head undertaken by the armed services collectively that have saved Pakistan exchequer a huge amount of valuable (limited) funds



Please don't hesitate and say it for the ignorants.


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## Hello_10

ajpirzada said:


> Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces
> 
> Pakistan's military commanders have ordered their troops to return fire if they come under attack from Nato forces, raising the prospect of further deadly clashes along the country's border with Afghanistan.
> 
> General Ashfaq Kayani, Pakistan's army chief, gave the new order in response to the recent deaths of 24 soldiers when their border posts came under fire from Nato helicopters.
> 
> Kayani is under immense pressure from within his own ranks over the two-hour bombardment by the helicopters of an ally, to which the Pakistani air force did not respond. The incident piled further humiliation on a military still stung by the US special forces operation in May that killed Osama bin Laden deep inside Pakistan.
> 
> "I want to emphasise and leave no ambiguity in the rules of engagement for everyone down the chain of command," Kayani said in a letter to his troops.
> 
> "When under attack, you have full liberty of action to respond with all capabilities at your disposal. This will require no clearance at any level.
> 
> "I have very clearly directed that any act of aggression will be responded to with full force, *regardless of the cost and consequences*." _(if anyone asks me, ill say that the bold part is the only thing which matters in this whole article)_
> 
> The communique, issued in Urdu, will be read out by local commanders to their soldiers.
> 
> Kayani also said that the air force did not respond to the Nato attack "due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts".
> 
> The move effectively transforms the role of more than 100,000 Pakistan troops deployed along its western border from counterinsurgency to border protection duty.
> 
> The Nato attack happened on the border between the Afghan province of Kunar and the Mohmand part of Pakistan's tribal area. The border posts were 300 metres inside Pakistani territory.
> 
> Pakistan claims the attack was "unprovoked" and continued even after it alerted Nato to the fact that its post was coming under fire.
> 
> US officials have claimed a combined Afghan and US special forces squad operating close to the border came under fire from suspected militants on the Pakistani side, and that they responded by calling in air support.
> 
> But a senior Pakistani military officer said US officials supplied the wrong co-ordinates for the proposed strike, and then launched the attack "without getting clearance from the Pakistani side".
> 
> "It was an unprovoked and indiscriminate attack by US helicopters and fighter jets," he said.
> 
> He denied an account by American officials, carried in Friday's Wall Street Journal, that they had checked the location with Pakistan first and the fatal strike had been given the go-ahead.
> 
> An investigation by the US military is under way.
> 
> In retaliation for the incident, Pakistan has blocked the transit of Nato supplies through its territory, ended the US use of an airbase and is boycotting next week's high-level international meeting on Afghanistan in Bonn.
> 
> Pakistan's co-operation is considered vital to stabilising Afghanistan and pushing the Taliban into peace talks.
> 
> Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces | World news | The Guardian
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> sure. anything else u would lik to put across?? I am carefully listening


 
NATOs attack on Pakistanis troops has a straight meaning, that, they want to conduct military operations inside Pakistan and they dont want Pakistani military to make any noise. Now, Pakistan would either demand compensations for the dead soldiers and dont make any noise even if they keep losing few soldiers on time to time and with civilians also during drone attacks/ military operations inside Pakistan, or, Pakistani military now has to have a straight face to face with NATO forces. After OBLs incident, it is believed by the Western media that its mainly Pakistani military who help/ control Taliban against NATO. And now NATO also say, Pakistan has right to self-defense so does US: Pentagon. Also, as USs president/ foreign ministry has refused to apologize so its clear that they find their NATO troops right on the incident. 

But I must appreciate Pakistani diplomats/ Pakistani military for the way they handled the issue till now. Neither they tried for any revenge and at the same time they have blocked NATOs supply line with the order to vacate their one prime airbase being used for drone attack by NATO, with full diplomatic campaign on other international platforms. As, if they might have responded the NATO troops, NATO was certainly going to hit back with full strength, and even if they might have shown weakness to NATO, they were going to face similar incidents very frequently in future as it could give a message to NATO forces that Pakistani defense is nothing so they would do whatever they want. And till now, neither Pakistan showed any weakness nor they gave any chance to NATO to open fire on Pakistan military with full strength. NATO finds that they have no option other than to strike on those places based in Pakistan which are handling war in Afghan, and also they believe these handlers have direct support from ISI/ Pakistani military, while Pakistan believes US would just leave the region and they may fix all. Pakistan wants diplomatic solution on Afghanistan while US dont want to talk to Taliban on the terms fixed by a victorious Taliban.

Its true that Pakistani Military has full support from its public and Pakistani political people so things are not like Libya where NATO had support from local groups and won the war in few months only. But its also true that they are going to at least make proper damage to Pakistani Military, even if they cant win there. I think, Pakistan may now first wait for any assurance from China and Russia before they would open proper fire on NATOs air and ground defense. NATO is clear that they are willing to cross ****** border very frequently in future to attack those places from where the war in Afghan is being controlled, what they claim, or, they would attack even on Pakistani military if they will stop NATO forces from doing so. and on the other hand Pakistani General has also said recently that Dont mess with Nuclear Pakistan. 

Mr Musharraf has demanded compensation for the dead soldiers from NATO so he is one of those in Pakistan who dont want any straight confrontation from NATO but what about other political personalities/ military bosses, will they accept it? We would wait till 11 December when things will get clearer. I think, China would be the main player if Pakistan decides to take any attempt on NATO forces.

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## BATMAN

Capt.Popeye said:


> Funniest post on this thread so far. LMAO.
> Where did Indians come in? Now, don't bring in the Martians next.
> Sort out the Issues with the Americans, that is where the probable solution lies.



Indians come to Afghanistan by free air transit from Pak airspace and in Afghanistan or via Iran.


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## Al Bhatti

December 3, 2011

Crucial Pakistan-US diplomacy need of the hour

It is at the operational level where the policy of the political leadership has to be implemented that there is a military and intelligence disconnect

The US/Nato fighter plane and helicopter attacks on Pakistani border posts on November 26 resulting in 24 Pakistan Army soldiers being killed and others wounded has been the most serious of repeated violations of Pakistan's sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Resulting national anger led to the Government's decisions to: block Nato supply routes to Afghanistan; ordering the closure of Shamsi airbase used for CIA drone strikes; boycotting the Bonn Conference on Afghanistan; review all existing political, military and intelligence cooperation with America, Nato and by extension with Afghanistan. That country has become a launching pad for intervention by American and Nato forces, India and by Pakistani Taliban given sanctuary in training camps.

What are the implications of this development and how it should be addressed? Since the mid-1950s, America, despite ups and downs in the relationship, has provided significant political support, economic and military assistance to Pakistan. However, America has to figure out why it is so unpopular. Not that this is different than elsewhere in the Muslim world due to American support for Israel's occupation of Palestine.

Pakistanis believe that they are used, when in America's interest as during the Afghan jihad against Soviet occupation, and discarded when no longer needed. The American-Nato invasion and occupation of Afghanistan increased public hostility and rising extremism and terrorism resulting in 50,000 military and civilian fatalities. Making India a new American strategic partner accentuated by the US-India nuclear deal and ignoring the need to resolve the Kashmir dispute accentuated this trend. While it's being projected that the transit blockage, and Pakistan's absence at the Bonn Conference, is not serious, the reality is different. The percentage of supplies including fuel transiting Pakistan vary between 43 per cent to 50 per cent. If the air bridge was also closed, which will be done if there is any repeat of such an attack, the situation for American/Nato/Isaf forces in an Afghanistan they are retreating from will be far more serious. The Istanbul/Bonn process leading to the Nato summit is an attempt by the West to exit Afghanistan, while maintaining a key footprint. Without Pakistan's active involvement the future of Afghanistan remains bleak. It would be wise if the Karzai government which blows hot and cold on Pakistan, keeps this in mind.

*Stability implications*

No doubt strained relations with America will have costs for Pakistan. On the economic side its planners have assessed that it will be bearable although more effective mechanisms for raising finances will have to be deployed. On the military side, such curtailment will significantly affect operations along the Afghan border, which would not be in America's interests either.

If Pakistan were destabilised the international implications would be profound. It is wrongly held that Pakistan is a hot bed of terrorism and extremism. In fact these forces, such as that of Al Qaida, whose ideological wellsprings, its financing, and main planners are based in, or come from other Muslim countries and societies, where their hosts find it safer to divert such forces to Pakistan. If Pakistan faltered, the forces of extremism would exponentially expand not only in neighbouring India with its 150 million Muslim population, in the other Muslim countries where despite the Arab Spring the situation remains volatile but also in the large diaspora of some 40 million Muslims in the West. Both Pakistan and America have shared objectives, which include fostering democracy, good governance, countering terrorism and extremism, educational, social and economic development leading to prosperity. It is at the operational level where the policy of the political leadership has to be implemented that in both countries there is a certain disconnect at the military and intelligence levels. This latest attack, coming hours after Coalition Commander General John R. Allen met Pakistan Army Chief Ashfaq Kiyani demonstrates this disconnect.

Was Nato not aware of the implications of the first attack followed shortly afterwards by the second attack? Pakistan's perception is that they were deliberate to make a point. America never attempted such an action from Iraq against a hostile Iran, but takes Pakistan for granted.

To address this situation, both sides should lower the rhetoric, only possible after an early public apology is extended. Subsequent diplomatic negotiations require a readiness to seriously consider probable Pakistani demands.

First of all, ironclad guarantees against any further such attacks on Pakistani soil. Secondly, Pakistan's legitimate interests in a neutral Afghanistan must be recognised. Thirdly, winding down the drone strikes as the collateral public perception damage outweighs counter terrorism gains. Fourthly renegotiation of Nato/Isaf transit factoring in infrastructural costs. Labelling the relationship as transactional where Pakistan's self-respect and the lives of its soldiers and civilians are of less value than their western counterparts will be a grave mistake for America to make.
_
Ambassador Tariq Osman Hyder is a retired Pakistani diplomat._

http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists/crucial-pakistan-us-diplomacy-need-of-the-hour-1.942192


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## Mercenary

Its best for both NATO and Pakistan to resolve this peaceful.

The only people who gain from this are Taliban and Al Qaeda Terrorists.

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## Al Bhatti

Mercenary said:


> Depends on where you are stationed.
> 
> If you are guarding a sensitive site like a Nuclear Storage Site, then absolutely, they have a right to realiate.
> 
> But on the border, that could trigger a major policy crisis, so its best for top commanders to give orders to retaliate rather than a solider going gung-ho.
> 
> And I ask again, how much trouble is it for a soldier on the border to radio HQ to ask for orders?


 
And the top comanders of NATO/USA

1) wanted to triger a major policy crisis *intentionally*

or

2) they were so incompetent and dumb that they gave such orders by *mistake*.


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## Mercenary

Al Bhatti said:


> And the top comanders of NATO/USA
> 
> 1) wanted to triger a major policy crisis *intentionally*
> 
> or
> 
> 2) they were so incompetent and dumb that they gave such orders by *mistake*.



Neither.

US and NATO are not stupid to deliberately kill 24 Pakistani Soldiers. They need Pakistan to be a solid partner as they withdraw from Afghanistan. So it was a mistake.

Now that mistake has to be investigated.

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## Wadera

This act by NATO (read Americans) is a clear act of aggression and must be condemned. What good an investigation will do? It will only highlight the exact circumstances of this act of terror. So, if NATO is proven to be on the wrong side - what do we Pakistani people expect from them? 

An apology? compensation? This is another example where neither our military nor the civilian govt has a policy. Irrespective of the findings I don't Pakistan to fight this war anymore. 

Must I remind everyone that this is not the first time such a thing has happened. Each passing day our tribals are being killed by drone attacks .. ofcourse naysayers will come out to say that these people are terrorists / militants .. but reality is that no one knows.. brutal aggression must stop...

Imagine this - what would stop the same Americans / NATO etc .. to attack other parts of Pakistan .. including Karachi / LHR / ISB .. if they want .. so we must stop being slaves and lackeys to Americans ..

Enough is enough.


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## Erhabi

America's Lost War
Killing Pakistani Soldiers
by BRIAN CLOUGHLEY
The killing of 24 Pakistan army soldiers in Mohmand Tribal Agency on November 26 by US air strikes is unforgivable. I was in Mohmand three weeks ago, visiting 77 Brigade, whose officers and soldiers were slaughtered by US aircraft, and I know exactly where Pakistan&#8217;s border posts are located. And so do American forces, because they have been informed of the precise coordinates of all them. 

There can be no refutation of the statement to me that &#8220;No plans of any patrols or operations being conducted [at the time of the Mohmand airstrikes] were shared [with Pakistan, by US forces].&#8221; And nobody can deny that the posts are well inside Pakistan.

Those killed in the US attack on Pakistan included Captain Usman, whose six-month-old daughter will never see him again, and Major Mujahid who was to be married shortly. Well done, you gallant warriors of the skies. May you never sleep contented.

Here is a description of what went on, from a retired army officer who visited the casualties in the Military Hospital in Peshawar:

*There were 14 wounded in the surgical ward suffering a variety of wounds . . . The crux of the account of the soldiers and officers was that at about 11pm . . . a light aircraft came from across the border, flew over the post and fired flares and returned. About half an hour later armed helicopters and [other] aircraft came. They again fired flares and began firing at the men. They remained in the area for about 5-6 hours. During this time, the helicopters [were] firing at individual personnel at will . . . [and fire was returned by their single 12.7 machine gun]. Every one of the men on the post was killed or wounded. They seemed to be in no hurry and going after each individual separately. Having finished the entire post, they peaceably went back without any casualty on their part.*

The US assault is unpardonable. It was one of the only too frequent Cowboy Yippee Shoots, as we used to call them in Vietnam when I served there in the Australian army. Some things don&#8217;t change.

And on the subject of flying &#8212; it is ironical that my flight from Islamabad to Paris in early November was delayed because there was so much conflicting air traffic through Afghan airspace. The West&#8217;s war in Afghanistan, which is hideously costly in lives of foreign soldiers and Afghans (not that Afghan lives matter much to the so-called &#8216;coalition&#8217; forces), and fantastically lucrative for corrupt Afghan politicians and officials &#8211; and lots of western commercial enterprises &#8211; involves staggering amounts of air movement. Much of it is by combat jet and helo jockeys, as well as countless drones, maneuvered by amoral, intellectually depraved video-game players in dinky little hi-tech parlors, blasting away with rockets, bombs and bullets at little figures on their screens.

The news keeps coming of errant air strikes, like the one in Kandahar on November 24 that killed six Afghan children, who were yet more victims of the West&#8217;s precision technology. And &#8220;NATO helicopters on Monday [November 28] fired four rockets into houses in Zhari district of Kandahar, killing three women and injuring two men, said Zalmai Ayoubi, the provincial governor&#8217;s spokesman.&#8221; Concurrently the website icasualties.org showed the names of three more young foreign soldiers killed in this cruel shambles. The British army&#8217;s Rifleman Sheldon Steel was 20, as was US Private Jackie Diener, whose countryman Corporal Zacharie Reiff was 22 when the three of them they gave their lives for &#8212; what? There were 25 foreign soldiers killed in Afghanistan in November, but there is little in the war-supporting mainstream western media about this death toll. And there is nothing about the concurrent maiming, physically and mentally, of countless young men who will never again know normality in their entire lifetimes &#8212; unlike the slavering ghouls in politics who piously intone their mantra that &#8220;we must support our troops,&#8221; in order to justify their war. What rancid humbugs. Have any of them had a son or husband die in hideous agony or suffer appalling mutilation in any of the wars they so noisily support?

The website about casualties does not of course record the names of any of the Pakistan army soldiers who were killed in Mohmand by the US air strikes in the small hours of last Saturday. The US commander of foreign forces in Afghanistan, General John R Allen, said he had offered his condolences to the family of &#8220;any&#8221; Pakistani soldiers who &#8220;may have been killed or injured,&#8221; which expression of halfhearted disquiet will undoubtedly go a long way to infuriate even more citizens of Pakistan. (Where do they get people like Allen? Are they programmed to say moronic things like this?)

It is not too much to say that the author of Cables from Kabul, Sherard Cowper-Coles, the brilliant British diplomat who was ambassador in that besieged capital for three action-packed years, feels that the Afghan War is fruitless. He writes that &#8220;it is unarguable that the West got into Afghanistan in October 2001 without a clear idea either of what it was getting into or of how it was going to get out.&#8221; Cowper-Coles (we&#8217;ll call him C-C) brought extensive experience and skill to Afghanistan, and it isn&#8217;t too much to suggest that if his notions and prescriptions had been accepted the place wouldn&#8217;t be in the terminal shambles that now exists. He obviously empathized with the Afghan people, and one can imagine him, translated to a century ago, being a benign interlocutor with Emir Nasrullah Khan and arguing persuasively about the Treaty of Gandamak.

But C-C&#8217;s modern arguments were of a different sort. His intercession concerning the slaughter of ninety Afghan villagers by a US Specter gunship &#8211; a truly hellish death-machine &#8211; was instrumental in extracting the final admission by the then US commander of foreign forces in Afghanistan, General McKiernan, that his troops &#8211; his army &#8211; his country &#8211; had lied. McKiernan acknowledged, after &#8220;the Americans were at first in denial&#8221;, that a US strike had killed the civilians &#8212; a &#8220;big gesture by a big man&#8221; writes C-C. And perhaps it was. But of course big gestures don&#8217;t bring back dead children to their mothers, be that in Afghanistan or the US or Pakistan or Britain or anywhere else. And the lies continue, with the Washington Post and the New York Times doing their best to spread the word, from un-named &#8220;Afghan security officials&#8221; that the slaughter of the Pakistan army soldiers on November 26 was their own fault. Here&#8217;s the Post:

After the coalition unit came under fire from the Pakistani side of the border, the troops responded by calling in an airstrike, which resulted in the Pakistani casualties, the officials said. &#8220;They did come under fire from across the border first, before reacting,&#8221; said a senior Afghan official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive issue . . .

One senior Afghan police official said that after an initial gunbattle, the insurgents retreated into a Pakistani post and began firing from there. &#8220;They started firing at the commandos, and they continued firing so the air support had to come to their defense,&#8221; the official said.

One wonders how C-C would have reacted to this, in his official position (probably with civilized disdain), but in 2009 he had to pay attention to the bigger picture, and when he was offered the opportunity to become his foreign minister&#8217;s Special Representative to Afghanistan, standing down from being ambassador, he accepted the poison chalice because he thought &#8220;it was a real chance to help the Obama Administration deliver the political strategy capable of bringing sustainable success.&#8221; In this he was vastly over-optimistic, even being warned by the late Richard Holbrooke that &#8220;not everyone&#8221; in the US administration saw things as did the British. C-C &#8220;pointed to the need for a process of national reconciliation to complement the military campaign&#8221; but although there may have been lip-service to that estimable objective, there was no evidence of serious application. Nor is there now, two years later.

In early November Major General Peter Fuller, the US deputy commander of Nato&#8217;s training mission in Afghanistan, was sacked for saying publicly that President Karzai was &#8220;isolated from reality&#8221; and that Afghans &#8220;don&#8217;t understand the sacrifices that America is making to provide for their security.&#8221; He had to be fired, of course, for making a fool of himself (where do they get them from?), but it is apparent that his sentiments are widely supported by the Pentagon&#8217;s decision-makers who blame everyone but themselves for the fact that their war is going catastrophically in what they insultingly call &#8220;AfPak.&#8221;

The &#8220;sacrifices that America is making&#8221; in Afghanistan, in what is ludicrously called &#8216;Operation Enduring Freedom&#8217;, are entirely self-inflicted. But Pakistan&#8217;s sacrifices are inflicted by America, which is losing yet another war and again blames another country for its failure. Just like it did in the disasters in Vietnam and Somalia and Iraq.

In the past fifty years, what nation has trusted America and come out of the deal with dignity, honor and prosperity? Pakistan is far from a perfect country. Its government is corrupt and appallingly inefficient. But it could do without Washington&#8217;s imperial insolence. At the moment Islamabad is desperate to find some means of registering the country&#8217;s contempt and loathing for the United States, and there are very few options available to it. But it could reflect on what Washington&#8217;s retaliation would have been if Pakistani aircraft had gone on a yippee shoot and killed 24 American soldiers inside Afghanistan.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/12/02/killing-pakistani-soldiers/
..........................

I dont know If somebody already posted this article but I find it interesting according to wounded soldiers they kept attacking for 5 to 6 hours...wth is going on?

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## F.O.X

Mercenary said:


> Neither.
> 
> US and NATO are not stupid to deliberately kill 24 Pakistani Soldiers. They need Pakistan to be a solid partner as they withdraw from Afghanistan. So it was a mistake.
> 
> Now that mistake has to be investigated.



US has made mistakes likes these 3 times in past , and guess what they were investigated too , but No Results , no punishment . There is a reason why Pakistan has decided not to Take part & trust US investigation.

Mistake or not it was US/NATO' fault , They should have been professional enough to know what the hell they were going to strike .

First you people Mess up & then claim it was a mistake , Very Good strategy by US .

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## Safriz

is this true?
zee news says ISAF soldiers ordered to keep away from ****** border.

www.zeenews.**********/news/south-asia/nato-troops-ordered-not-to-approach-******-zone_745137.html


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## Irfan Baloch

hellfire said:


> Oh just go ahead and accuse others of being troll when even the basic considerations of strategic impact are beyond the capabilities of your faculties ....
> 
> by being a moderator ... its incumbent upon you to be objective in your approach ... if you want to ban someone do so by all means ..... why harp on it?



indeed that is the whole point to teach sense into people and discourage others to make an account just for the sake of trolling.

Repeating the same thing over and over again is the sign of being ANAL and doesn&#8217;t suggest that the poster has the strategic insight which we, the normal mere mortals lack as you put it.

But like I said earlier, the thread is not about us individuals but the incident that went wrong from the start from both sides. 

e.g. Pakistani check posts not having anything to defend themselves when NATO has had a history of doing what it did on that day.
NATO with its ever changing storyline as the day goes by
The PAF with its lame excuse of not making an appearance on the scene for the reasons known to it or the NATO CAP flying across the border.

What you are saying about Russia is what I have said already few other places its payback time and it suits them very well you only mentioned America I include Pakistan too because if we had not taken the stand despite facing the terrorism of that time in the shape of &#8220;hammer group&#8221; and the Khad agents that were involved in the bombings and the assassinations then the Mujahideen (now Taliban terrorists) would have been history.

The story is not very simple, you mourn us being the neighbour of Afghanistan now and the all countries around Afghanistan mourn them for being the neighbour for centuries but that totally another discussion.

You are still being very simplistic in your analytical skills you have employed to debate &#8220;the strategic impact&#8221;. I wish it was that easy and Afghanistan problems were solved years ago but this lack of understanding is in the minds of the current occupiers of Afghanistan Not me or my fellow Pakistani posters.

Its called arrogance, when they decided to sideline the biggest ethnic group I.e Pashtons and decided that every Pashton was a Taliban and needed to be treated the same way as Taliban despite what Pakistan kept saying from the first day. and gave Taliban the chance use this discrimination to their advantage. The Northern alliance played its part in that too And Americans decided to partner themselves with the Northern alliance and the criteria for northern alliance being good was that Taliban were bad and northern alliance were their enemy so enemy of my enemy being my friend and if that new partner/ friend has same or worse record like Taliban in shaping the current Afghanistan then so be it.


By the way I took the liberty of editing your message where you are being personal and judgemental and playing victim at the same time, also I like your opening sentence where you are celebrating your insight and chiding me for the lack of vision in one sentence, now that&#8217;s golden.




hellfire said:


> ...* the dear poster says no permission came* !!!! It is exasperating ..... how can one be so naive .... and a moderator joins in to call me a troll and threatens a ban .... what nonsense ... if one tries to logically reason out, you get a boot .. just coz of my flag




No one is going to ban you for your argument be at ease , not me unless there is some serious forum rules breach. and that has nothing to do with the Flag.


Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like you are confusig two things here. Permission for what, to whom and from who?

Permission from Kynai to PA soldiers to retaliate without seeking orders in case of repeat event? 
Or permission from Pakistanis command to NATO to engage the two posts?
First one is for media consumption from the same media that is asking our DGMO that why 155mm field guns were not used to the destroy the NATO helicopters. Indeed the SOPs are always in place, I have stayed at Jammu sector at some places both armies are so close to each other that they can year each other and shout out to each other as a warning no one deploys an MKI or Babur missile on every single occasion. So no matter what, the same SOPs will be followed and communications channels will remain open and that&#8217;s what has averted an artillery fire between the two after few days, although that didn&#8217;t get much attention.

If you are talking about the permission from Pakistanis to NATO to engage and destroy not one but both posts then please forgive me to disagree, that story is rejected by Pakistan army. Granted NATO is all high and mighty but we didn&#8217;t tell them to wipe out our own posts. There is foul play involved and some malicious intent at play so hold tight and see how the story develops don&#8217;t pass judgements yet.

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## HANI




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## somebozo

Bill Longley said:


> *In era of GPS and GPRS its impossible that NATO did not know the position of Our Post. I think govt should give orders to shoot down hostile heli's if they cross limits. Shoot down 1 or two heli's they will behave. but with this Passive approch only result of hue and cry will be an apology over loss of Life by NATO and case close*



MY GPS can guide me accurately to my parking spot..so I doubt the military does not have features at-least twice better than ordinary consumer GPS..this is not a case of negligence but pure intention. We definitely need to retaliate..sending 200-300 body bags back to US sounds like a good recipe here!


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## Safriz

sending an apache or a drone in cardboard boxes will better.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

to them or to the curious Chinese


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## Al Bhatti

Mercenary said:


> Neither.
> 
> US and NATO are not stupid to deliberately kill 24 Pakistani Soldiers. They need Pakistan to be a solid partner as they withdraw from Afghanistan. So it was a mistake.
> 
> Now that mistake has to be investigated.



What if we also make a *mistake* and at least the same number (24) get killed on NATO/USA side? We will also be able to investigate. Right?

Also, the soldier/pilot found *guilty* of the *mistake* will be very much happy to face trial. Does that sound a fair deal?

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## Al Bhatti

Malik Abdullah said:


> I dont know If somebody already posted this article but I find it interesting according to wounded soldiers they kept attacking for 5 to 6 hours...wth is going on?



I also asked the same thing here

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## Irfan Baloch

somebozo said:


> MY GPS can guide me accurately to my parking spot..so I doubt the military does not have features at-least twice better than ordinary consumer GPS..this is not a case of negligence but pure intention. We definitely need to retaliate..sending 200-300 body bags back to US sounds like a good recipe here!





safriz said:


> sending an apache or a drone in cardboard boxes will better.



Respected members,

Please,

why do you really have to invite trolls by making such wishful posts? We all know where we stand.

Back in the days during the 80s we were able to stand the Soviets and shoot their planes because we had an active and ample backing of the Western and Muslim block. There is nothing of that sort at the moment and we are on our own.

Hopefully such day never comes when there are more casualties between the NATO and Pakistan because they were supposed to have Taliban as common enemy not become enemies of each other . You need to understand that there are elections coming in America and no one will like to appear a failure and weak .so pray for peace not war.

There is no need for any special order from COAS (that&#8217;s just for media consumption just like asking US to vacate Shamsi base for nth time). If the soldiers come under sustained and deliberate fire they will retaliate anyway and hopefully with better air defence equipment but lets not pray for such event because as the things are 99% chances are that we will come worse off whether we like it or not.

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## Safriz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> to them or to the curious Chinese


 
to hugo chavez of vanezuela


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## Abu Zolfiqar

point well taken. Mr. Baloch.


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## Safriz

Irfan Baloch said:


> Respected members,
> 
> Please,
> 
> Really why do you really have to invite trolls by making such wishful posts? We all know where we stand.
> 
> Back in the days during the 80s we were able to stand the Soviets and shoot their planes because we had an active and ample backing of the Western and Muslim block. There is nothing of that sort at the moment and we are on our own.
> 
> Hopefully such day never comes when there are more casualties between the NATO and Pakistan because they were supposed to have Taliban as common enemy not become enemies of each other . You need to understand that there are elections coming in America and no one will like to appear a failure and weak .so pray for peace not war.
> 
> There is no need for any special order from COAS (that&#8217;s just for media consumption just like asking US to vacate Shamsi base for nth time). If the soldiers come under sustained and deliberate fire they will retaliate anyway and hopefully with better air defence equipment but lets not pray for such event because as the things are 99% chances are that we will come worse off whether we like it or not.


 
give us the name of any other country in the world who will remain silent after such attack.
and it will be foolish to assume that they wont do it again.....because they will.

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

and you.are forgetting that no matter how advanced their war machines are....the fuel to fly them goes through pakistan....so its not that pakistan is helpless.....pakistan may not have the weapons to shoot them down...but with little courage can ground them by stopping fuel supply.


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## Irfan Baloch

safriz said:


> give us the name of any other country in the world who will remain silent after such attack.
> and it will be foolish to assume that they wont do it again.....because they will.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------
> 
> and you.are forgetting that no matter how advanced their war machines are....the fuel to fly them goes through pakistan....so its not that pakistan is helpless.....pakistan may not have the weapons to shoot them down...but with little courage can ground them by stopping fuel supply.



yes but please dont overplay it.
no we are not helpless, far from it but we are in no position to invite the war upon us even if thats NATO's intention. Why play in the hands of the enemy.
Imagine who will laugh if that happens? All the enemies of Pakistan.

We are all supposed to react and the reaction has been made. But don&#8217;t loose sight that that Afghans stability is much more needed by Pakistan than any other country in the world. A stable and peaceful Afghanistan will mean the end of BLA and TTP sanctuaries and incursions and their destruction.
Do you think India wont join in with NATO if we open a war front with NATO?
Jamat islami rallies wont be able to do much in such case apart from venting some hot air.


and please dont be too proud about oil supplies, do you think in case of open hostilities we will be able to stop them from making their route? why are you forgeting other neighbouring countries who will be more than willing to provide their route and even their own oil?

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## Fekay

Some good points by george galloway on various issues including attack on pakistani soilders, Iran issue - 50 mins video.


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## Safriz

i understand your point....true that our cant rant and rave may put wrong ideas in the minds of the gullible...if you know what i mean.
we are not here for hatemongering..we are not here to insult any nation..and we are not here to make somebody beleive that every american is a legitimate target...because their army killed our soldiers.........by all means we should avoid making such comments..
if thats what you mean?

but speaking in favour of our army...trying to boost the morale of an already discouraged nation and proposing ways in which the menace sitting on our western borders can be dealt with...should be ok.
ISAF are not pakistans friends and the sooner we realize that the better.


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## Irfan Baloch

safriz said:


> but speaking in favour of our army...trying to boost the morale of an already discouraged nation and proposing ways in which the menace sitting on our western borders can be dealt with...should be ok.
> ISAF are not pakistans friends and the sooner we realize that the better.



very well said and we all need to support our army and seek the truth of that incident. but we need to be careful by not saying anything which makes us look silly. NTAO knows it that their future attacks will meet a much bigger resistence and they will avoid that but if thats their intent then so be it, if its war they want then thats what they will get, only time will tell who was wrong or right but at least we wont be sorry that we never got the chance.

lets wait and see what the investigations from both pakistanis and NATO reveal, I wont accept or rejecet either side of the story on face value but I will analyise it and based on past experience I will take a view.

the fact remains that America's attack was unwarrented, they have expressed their mistake and condolence many times so ets see what are the final findings. dont worry truth will eventually come out.


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## IND151

RIP to PAK soldiers

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## genmirajborgza786

Breaking news : *NATO troops ordered not to approach Afghan-Pakistan buffer zone*


Washington: US-led NATO troops in Afghanistan have been ordered not to approach the buffer zone on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border in order to avoid a recurrence of last week's air strike that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

An order in this regard has been issued by Gen John Allen, the Commander of US and NATO forces in Afghanistan in the aftermath of the November 26 air strike, pending the detailed investigation into the incident announced by US Central Command (CENTCOM), Ivo Daalder, US Permanent Representative to NATO, said here on Friday.

The real facts of the incident, he said, would be known only after the investigation is over.
"The most important thing we have already learnt is that General Allen has ordered the troops not to approach the created buffer zone at the border in order to reduce the chances that something like this would happen in the future," Daalder said in a breakfast meeting with the Defence Writers Group here.


Giving his brief of the incident that has plunged the US-Pak relationship to an all-time low, the US Ambassador said the most basic fact is that there was a strike that killed 24 Pakistani border guards.

"What we don't know the sequence of events that led to that and we have conflicting stories. Our side of the story is still being investigated in great detail. General Allen took the responsibility immediately not only to investigate the incident but also to bring in US, Afghan, NATO and asked Pakistan to participate in the investigation," he said.

The Pentagon said on Friday that Pakistan has declined to participate in the investigation.
"I don't know the sequence of events. There may be people who know, but so far they haven't come to any conclusions and I think the best thing to do is to let the facts speak for themselves. Once these facts would come out, we will learn about the incident," Daalder said.

He added that one of the lessons learnt has already been implemented by NATO in the order that has been issued by General Allen with regard to not to approach the created buffer zone on the border.

"But we would have to look at exactly what happened, and what lessons we learn from it about communications need... and that would take some time," the American diplomat said conceding that the relationship between the two nations have reached an all-time low.

"It is clear that relationship with Pakistan has not improved. The relationship has been on the US level difficult for some time, we had the arrest of (CIA contractor) Raymond Davis (in Lahore), we had the Osama bin Laden raid (in Abbottabad) and others and finally this incident just escalates a set of differences that are real," he said.

The US is trying to work together with NATO as well as other countries, understanding that this is a major problem for it, Daalder said.

"We need to find ways to continue cooperative effort with Pakistan. We have no choice but to cooperate with Pakistan given that the terrorists are a threat to all three of our countries (US, Pakistan and Afghanistan).

"As such an effective cooperation would remain essential which is why, we talked at the highest level...to try to find ways to get cooperation," he said.



Read more at: NATO troops ordered not to approach Afghan-Pakistan buffer zone


NATO troops ordered not to approach Afghan-Pakistan buffer zone

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## F.O.X

A Good move to reduce tension , however not going to work though .

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## genmirajborgza786

NATO troops ordered to stay out of ****** buffer zone
Agencies Posted online: Sat Dec 03 2011, 13:23 hrs
Washington : US-led NATO troops in Afghanistan have been ordered not to approach the buffer zone on the ****** border in order to avoid recurrence of last week's air trike that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers. 
An order in this regard has been issued by Gen John Allen, the Commander of US and NATO forces in Afghanistan in the aftermath of the November 26 air strike, pending the detailed investigation into the incident announced by US Central Command (CENTCOM), Ivo Daalder, US Permanent Representative to NATO, said here yesterday. 
The real facts of the incident, he said, would be known only after the investigation is over. 

"The most important thing we have already learnt is that Gen Allen has ordered the troops not to approach the created buffer zone at the border in order to reduce the chances that something like this would happen in the future," Daalder said in a breakfast meeting with the Defence Writers Group here. 

Giving his brief of the incident that has plunged the US-Pak relationship to an all-time low, the US Ambassador said the most basic fact is that there was a strike that killed 24 Pakistani border guards. 

"What we don't know the sequence of events that led to that and we have conflicting stories. Our side of the story is still being investigated in great detail. General Allen took the responsibility immediately not only to investigate the incident but also to bring in US, Afghan, NATO and asked Pakistan to participate in the investigation," he said. 

The Pentagon yesterday said that Pakistan has declined to participate in the investigation. 


http://www.indianexpress.com/story-print/883612/ 

note: the news has just came out an hour ago i am searching other sources

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## Emmie

Do they have any other option? No.

But how authentic is this news?


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## Bill Longley

To Get respect Imperial Armies of NATO and ISAF would have to learn to respect others

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## Safriz

if its true...it may be the first positive step from ISAF.

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## Devil Soul

most of the news sources are indian


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## Ambitious449

What will happen about Shamsi air base? any clue.


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## SEAL

The news come after Kiyani gave go ahead to troops to fire in self defense without following protocol.


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## Emmie

Any Pakistani or Western link to this news?


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## wmdisinfo

this is only one week after the supply to Nato is blocked just imiagine them after 2 weeks.this is something which was expected but they are always the one who go against their won decisions like in libya they said only no flyzone but in the end killed gaddafi and change the regieme.u cant trust them.ITS HIGH TIME TO DECLARE AN END TO WAR OF TERROR AND GET OUT OF IT.

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## F.O.X

Ambitious449 said:


> What will happen about Shamsi air base? any clue.



It is still going to be vacated by 11th dec if not sooner .

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## Devil Soul

*NATO troops ordered not to approach ****** buffer zone*
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From Lalit K Jha
Washington, Dec 3 (PTI) US-led NATO troops in Afghanistan have been ordered not to approach the buffer zone on the ****** border in order to avoid recurrence of last week''s air strike that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.
An order in this regard has been issued by Gen John Allen, the Commander of US and NATO forces in Afghanistan in the aftermath of the November 26 air strike, pending the detailed investigation into the incident announced by US Central Command (CENTCOM), Ivo Daalder, US Permanent Representative to NATO, said here yesterday.
The real facts of the incident, he said, would be known only after the investigation is over.

"The most important thing we have already learnt is that Gen Allen has ordered the troops not to approach the created buffer zone at the border in order to reduce the chances that something like this would happen in the future," Daalder said in a breakfast meeting with the Defence Writers Group here.
Giving his brief of the incident that has plunged the US-Pak relationship to an all-time low, the US Ambassador said the most basic fact is that there was a strike that killed 24 Pakistani border guards.

"What we don''t know the sequence of events that led to that and we have conflicting stories. Our side of the story is still being investigated in great detail. General Allen took the responsibility immediately not only to investigate the incident but also to bring in US, Afghan, NATO and asked Pakistan to participate in the investigation," he said.
The Pentagon yesterday said that Pakistan has declined to participate in the investigation. (More) PTI LKJ
NATO troops ordered not to approach Af-Pak buffer zone -


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## FireFighter

The cowboys are finally stepping down the high horse or is this just another chatter for public consumption? Perhaps to cool off the hot air. 

Regardless, the yanks can't be trusted. Yesterday they bombarded the media with bogus news of pakistan's duplicity and complicity in helping the Taliban which somehow lead to the attacks on the posts. 

Pakistan must review and renew rules of cooperation with ISAF/NATO/US keeping public views and interests in mind. 

Yeh badmashi Nahi Chaley Gee!!! *fist in the air in protests*

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## genmirajborgza786

got this related to the topic



*We respect Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty: US * Updated 10 hours ago 

WASHINGTON: US State Department has said that America respects Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty evident form US Central Command&#8217;s (CENTCOM) quick steps to launch a probe into Mohmand tragedy for the very reason, Geo News reported.

Spokesman Mark Toner in State Department&#8217;s daily briefing said that US CENTCOM had tasked a team with an in-depth investigation into the Nato&#8217;s friendly fire, which martyred more than a dozen Pakistani troops deployed at an outstation next to Afghan border.

&#8220;US wants to make sure no such incident comes to pass in the future&#8221;, Toner said.

When asked why US was shy of offering an apology for this fatal tactical error, he said the truth was still out there, adding that was why Pakistan had been invited on board a US probe into the tragedy. 

Commenting on Pakistan&#8217;s decision of a quick retaliation to such hostility in the days to come, he said the probe underway also aimed at ascertaining the implications of this strategy-shift by Pakistan. However, it was a Defence Department matter and only they could give a better answer to it, Toner added.

To another question, he said, in order to rule out any misunderstanding that could lead to any unforeseeable estrangement, we were in tight loop with our Pakistani counterparts since the Mohmand tragedy. 


We respect Pakistan

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## W.11

i think after memo controversy, its hard for PPP to be careless in this case

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## F.O.X

genmirajborgza786 said:


> got this related to the topic
> 
> 
> 
> *We respect Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty: US * Updated 10 hours ago
> 
> WASHINGTON: US State Department has said that America respects Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty evident form US Central Command&#8217;s (CENTCOM) quick steps to launch a probe into Mohmand tragedy for the very reason, Geo News reported.
> 
> Spokesman Mark Toner in State Department&#8217;s daily briefing said that US CENTCOM had tasked a team with an in-depth investigation into the Nato&#8217;s friendly fire, which martyred more than a dozen Pakistani troops deployed at an outstation next to Afghan border.
> 
> &#8220;US wants to make sure no such incident comes to pass in the future&#8221;, Toner said.
> 
> When asked why US was shy of offering an apology for this fatal tactical error, he said the truth was still out there, adding that was why Pakistan had been invited on board a US probe into the tragedy.
> 
> Commenting on Pakistan&#8217;s decision of a quick retaliation to such hostility in the days to come, he said the probe underway also aimed at ascertaining the implications of this strategy-shift by Pakistan. However, it was a Defence Department matter and only they could give a better answer to it, Toner added.
> 
> To another question, he said, in order to rule out any misunderstanding that could lead to any unforeseeable estrangement, we were in tight loop with our Pakistani counterparts since the Mohmand tragedy.
> 
> 
> We respect Pakistan



We Respect US too , but it is just that we Dont Trust Them .

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## moha199

This buffer zone was created by Musharraf government and im looking for the link that i have posted way back in 2006-07, so basically who ordered to ignore the buffer zone? is it americans or Pakistani gave clearance to this? These kind of dumb stuff need to be taken care to avoid future conflict. I look at very core way which is that these 24 Soldiers are not coming back and each of the soldier life is important, we lost 24 and there is no price to this loss of life!

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## Secur

NATO has just derailed their face saving end game in Afghanistan ... Thats one thing for sure ...


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## Navy SEAL Sniper

Thats Bull %$#@. Oh mate I came in your house and killed your brother but now I won't roam around your boundry walls. Who is answerable for the deaths then ? Bad luck I guess.....

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## Rig Vedic

Well that will certainly make it easier for Haqqanis and Taliban to come and go.


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## no_koadsheding_plz

LOL,,

had this been issued by pakistan it would have some weight/meaning.. however since its issued by NATO its nothing more then an insult to injury


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## Navy SEAL Sniper

Rig Vedic said:


> Well that will certainly make it easier for Haqqanis and Taliban to come and go.



Dear neighbour,

The Afghans will then have to learn to protect their borders once US exits in 2014. If they can't then let Obama officially rule Afghanistan too


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## pakdefender

There is a lot of anger in Pakistan Army over this attack and both serving and retired officers are pushing for retaliatory measures at the highest level and by now these NATO/US rats must have picked up the pulse, they have their informers and spies , hence they are trying to pacify things with cosmetic statements and measures.
They will not be allowed to get away with this act, in fact they should be made to pay for being responsible for a decade of war they have indirectly imposed on us!

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## Stealth

WHAT A SUPER POWER ... when PAkistan threatening kaka Superpower dar gaya hahhahahahha 

"either NATO forces come to buffer zone or not PAKISTAN SHOULD STICK TO SHAMSI AIRBASE CLEAR + NO NATO SUPPLY" 

bare technology hey **** day kar chorengay tumahre technology ke !!


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Assalam alaikum

there r many ways that we can hurt them no need to be openly, yey makkar bantay hain hum unn say bhi baray makkar hain 

they were getting us coz we ppl of pakistan were divided about this whole stupid wot and i m glad now it is only few ppl who r for this war or to help the west and that is all bcoz of their stupidity, thanks 

TARIQ


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## VelocuR

The Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) has released the text of a message from Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani pledging crushing retaliation if the US-Isaf forces attacked inside Pakistani territory again, regardless of consequences. *In his message meant for the troops*, he said, *Be assured that we will not let the aggressor walk away easily; I have clearly directed that any act of aggression will be responded to with full force, regardless of the cost and consequences.*

Wisdom better than rash bravado &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## regular

Actions speak louder than wordz...We will believe Mr. Kyani when we see any action against US/NATO intruding our airspaces otherwise these statements are nothing but Bull craps....

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## Irfan Baloch

regular said:


> Actions speak louder than wordz...We will believe Mr. Kyani when we see any action against US/NATO intruding our airspaces otherwise these statements are nothing but Bull craps....



that is right

NATO will take us seriously once we can take out Molana Aunty of Red Mosque who says that dead Pakistan Soldiers dont deserve Islamic burial or prayers and also hang people like Malik Ishaq who walk out free despite admitting personally killing 90 people in front of the judge.

when our own citizens make a mockery of the writ of the state and its sovereignty with impunity then outsiders will never take us seriously.

my personal Opinion is that PAF should have made an appearence on the scene maybe just a flight pass within our borders to make the Helis halt their attacks and run for Afghansitan but that never happened. since PAF is not headed by Kiyani so I wont blame him for that.

---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------




RaptorRX707 said:


> The Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) has released the text of a message from Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani pledging &#8216;crushing retaliation if the US-Isaf forces attacked inside Pakistani territory again, &#8216;regardless of consequences&#8217;. *In his message meant for the troops*, he said, *&#8220;Be assured that we will not let the aggressor walk away easily; I have clearly directed that any act of aggression will be responded to with full force, regardless of the cost and consequences&#8221;.*
> 
> Wisdom better than rash bravado &#8211; The Express Tribune



I cant help but think that our enemies will laugh at this statement. if Taliban and Americans were sitting in a room and watching the news and this statement was run on the ticker tape they will laugh together for few minutes.

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## President Camacho

RaptorRX707 said:


> The Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) has released the text of a message from Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani pledging &#8216;crushing retaliation if the US-Isaf forces attacked inside Pakistani territory again, &#8216;regardless of consequences&#8217;. *In his message meant for the troops*, he said, *&#8220;Be assured that we will not let the aggressor walk away easily; I have clearly directed that any act of aggression will be responded to with full force, regardless of the cost and consequences&#8221;.*
> 
> Wisdom better than rash bravado &#8211; The Express Tribune



Will the out-stationed troops, deployed in the most dangerous of all the areas, be provided with timely reinforcements by the PA and the PAF while thwarting the approaching aggressor?

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## Gin ka Pakistan

US , India will divide Pakistan through civil and military powers (MemoGate)
Hate for Punjabis
Shiite Sunni division 

But its easy to divide and Invade but to rule a occupied divided nation is US India nightmare. Extremist love divided US occupied nations for wars. So Pleaseeeee US and India ,stop acting on MemoGate, Pakistan can become a nightmare , stop dividing people of Pakistan let them love Punjabi's, Army and Shiite Sunnis. Please Saudi Arab and Iran stopping funding to religious schools in Pakistan. 

*US has the power too*
1. Destroy any country and put its puppet
2. Kill any one
3. Keep occupation with the help of divided nation. (were one group hating the other so much that one allies with US to crush the other)

*But*
1, US can't unite a captive nation, as it divide's first to invade and by then there is so much hate (thanks to US policy of divide and rule) that nation can never be one (Shitte Sunni and Kurds). Democracy fails were one group is in majority and hates other minorities.
2, US army is high tech and needs so much comfort that even when its troop don't fight, they need 1000$ a day per person to deploy . US economy is weak now for another Iraq.
3, US find love from few and hate from many as by default people supporting them are corrupt and ignore the needs of other fellows.

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## TrMhMt

RIP to Soldiers !!!

I think there is something wrong here. You guys blame NATO but 24 soldiers killed by USA not NATO. NATO is an umbrella for US. They hide under this umbrella after killed innocents. They hide this umbrella coz nobody response it easy than response US. 

There are German, French, Australian, Turkish etc. troops in Afghanistan under umbrella of NATO. Did they give you a harm effect? Did these troops attack on your forces? I think no. Only US attacked and killed your soldiers. I think you should not blame NATO. You should blame US directly.

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## VelocuR

President Camacho said:


> Will the out-stationed troops, deployed in the most dangerous of all the areas, be provided with timely reinforcements by the PA and the PAF while thwarting the approaching aggressor?



Maybe this message gave NATO to think twice. Do we expect Kiyani to sit and no statements comments? I think, this urgent message is helping all of us to cool down or satisfy audiences. It is same tricks from the previous OBL raid. There are already three strikes hitting hard on Pakistan (OBL, Mehran, now Checkpost Attacks). 

Pakistan have self-right to defence to protect their country in assertives ways, not aggressives. Recently NATO boss Allen has ordered NATO to step back away from buffer zone, which is a bit good things. 

PAF must act immediately, that's all. 


I fear, there are some low-level or medium level army (angry) or sympathizers want to get rid of Kiyani or assassinate him in order to take a charge of Pakistan control since thousands Pakistani and 4000 soldiers died. That's what Kiyani worried.


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## Secur

hellfire said:


> No you cant answer. You are telling about something about which I have a very good idea. The standing operating procedure (SOP) to ANY soldier of ANY nation on ANY border is that observe and report. Now, when the air assault must have started the information would have conveyed to your higher brass. The same does not take time and is disseminated to all concerned within minutes. And SOP for any troops on an active border area is to retaliate if attacked.
> 
> Ok for arguments sake I accept that orders were not forthcoming from your higher headquarters .... when they came to know that your troops were killed, even then your armed forces did not have the guts to retaliate? DOnt you find that a bit hard to swallow? I certainly do. Knowing the PA very well .... its not some rag tag outfit ...... it has a very clear cut SOP in place and will care hoots to obtain go ahead from GoP.


 So what exactly do you want to hear ? All of your posts indicate that you are going round and round in circles by repeating the same arguments again and again thus adding nothing constructive to the discussion ... Yes , we all know that PA wasn't authorized to fire on NATO troops ... That had been the practice until now ... From now on , such doesn't remain the case ... the troops have very clear orders to fire on aggressors ... Come talk to us if such things happen in future ... Only some drunk person will believe that PA authorized the attack on its troops ... Its possible that NATO deliberately gave false information to get attack clearance from GHQ ... Another lie would be that Apaches were there for 2 hours when the operation would have been done in minutes ... 



hellfire said:


> They dont need to save any face. They have managed to attain a majority of their objectives there .... and as for supplies .... its just a minor issue ....



Yes , they need to save face ... you know why ?

Taliban are still present in over 70 % of Afghanistan ... Wasn't the extermination of Taliban the very first thing that USA and her allies wanted ? 

*&#8220;While the international community&#8217;s prospects in Afghanistan have never been bleaker, the Taliban has been experiencing a renaissance that has gained momentum since 2005,&#8221; ICOS said. The presence of the Islamist group in Afghanistan has increased from 54 to 72 percent over the past year, according to the report. 
* 
Taliban Control 72% of Afghanistan; Surround Kabul, Group Says - Bloomberg

Ask yourself , Does Karzai has any real control outside his presidential palace let alone Kabul ?
Can anyone move freely inside Afghanistan ? Is the law and order situation any better / getting better ? Is ANA capable of fighting insurgents without NATO help ?  

What are those objectives which have been achieved ? And if you are one of those naive people who think that the real aim was to kill OBL then give me a break ! No country spends trillions and derail their economy just to nab a person ... What has changed since OBL's death even ? Situation getting any better ? 100's are ready to take place of him ... So tomorrow will the US again come to kill the new Al Qaeda leader ?  

and about supplies ... Only a person who has absolutely no idea of the logistics would say that they aren't a issue ... Over 40 % of supplies are routed through Pakistan ... Imagine the limitation to the extent of operations that NATO can undertake in Afghanistan at the moment ... Its the biggest issue that NATO faces now ... Russia is blackmailing the US and NDN will not be operational after 2014 ... Will it be ? 



hellfire said:


> Let me get you in on a secret .... even Russians dont like Muslim fundamentalism and find the present mess in Afghanistan to their advantage for two reasons (i) Its payback to NATO and US for their intervention only this time they dont need to arm the Talibs, they just have to laugh their heads off (ii)



Agreed ! 



hellfire said:


> As long as NATO and US forces operate there, the Talibs and other good guys of Islamic Jehad Inc dont have time to divert trained cadres or train cadres for Chechnya which I must tell as another secret is a Muslim province having an active insurgency with terror strikes a regular feature in Dagestan and Ingushetia



The insurgency in Chencnya and Dagestan and other Russian territories has lost its momentum years ago ... Did i just enlighten you ?  If not , then tell me of any attack that has occurred in these areas since 2009 ... The only reason Russia is supporting USA at the moment is that they dont want Taliban back in power but the Northern Alliance ... 

And if you think that Al Qaeda cant operate in multiple countries simultaneously , then forget it ... Aren't they still active in Iraq , several African and Arab countries and Yemen even now ? So does the war in Afghanistan has any impact on their operations around the globe ?




hellfire said:


> .... surprise why Russia is just letting US be there? Also the Russians are allowing movement of material and logistics through CARS for US and NATO and the ABM issue is just an attempt to wrangle a concession from them as part of payment



Where did i say that Russia isn't letting US pass supplies through CARS ? Yes , the ABM is critical to Russia because it will seriously undermine its efforts to have a credible nuclear capability against USA / NATO and with the recent blockade by Pakistan over supplies ... They now have a bargaining chip for the European missile defense shield ... 



hellfire said:


> When the international community calls pakistan .. its not out of fear, its a matter of convenience .... a cooperative Pakistan is better than one which will further foment trouble .... its not out of recognition of Pakistan as a peacemaker that all call them, its out of it being a rogue which will undermine peace efforts that you are called. You think that is something to be proud of and something that denotes respect for you? Its more like the irritating kid who needs to be handelled to ensure he does not spoil the mood of the household.



Yes , its not out of fear ... Its due to the influence and the strategic importance of Pakistan that they call and ask for co-operation ... We need no one to recognize us as a peace maker , because actions speak louder than words ... We have sacrificed over 35 000 civilians and troops in this war and dont need a certificate for anything ... What can Pakistan do if the Afghans were fighting over for the last 200 years long before Pakistan existed and continue to do so ? ... Is that our fault too ?  ... Almost all goods are provided to Afghanistan through Pakistan ( and that includes everything from fuel to food ) so unless West normalizes its relationship with Iran or CAR , there's no future for Afghanistan without Pakistan ... We have sheltered 30 million thankless Afghans who brought with them drugs , weapons and extremist ideology and those who are very happy on the killing of our soldiers ... If India is so much concerned , then open the borders and keep them  ... And i see you have suddenly changed your stance from " who cares about Pakistan " to " Pakistan's a rogue country and thats why everyone needs it " ... Try to stick to your arguments ... Unless Pakistan helps the West , they cant negotiate with Taliban and therefore the future of Afghanistan will be bleak ...

*The West is expecting Afghanistan to descend into civil war after NATO troops leave, according to secret military documents.
Although governments say publicly that they hope to stabilise the war-torn country's democracy, the leaked memos suggest that they are preparing for the worst.
Intelligence documents drawn up by the U.S. and German military state: 'When the ISAF troops leave the country, there will be civil war.*

Afghanistan will collapse into civil war when western troops fall out, according to leaked intelligence documents



hellfire said:


> No one can change the misfortune of Afghanistan of having Pakistan as a neighbour ... a neighbour who undermines all efforts at peace ..... Like you said Denial more isnt good for anyone, so better accept that as a fact


 Thats exactly the same thing we think about our Eastern neighbor so hey the feeling's mutual ...  The same unfortunate neighbor has done more for Afghans than some people in denial mode can even think ...

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## TaimiKhan

TrMhMt said:


> RIP to Soldiers !!!
> 
> I think there is something wrong here. You guys blame NATO but 24 soldiers killed by USA not NATO. NATO is an umbrella for US. They hide under this umbrella after killed innocents. They hide this umbrella coz nobody response it easy than response US.
> 
> There are German, French, Australian, Turkish etc. troops in Afghanistan under umbrella of NATO. Did they give you a harm effect? Did these troops attack on your forces? I think no. Only US attacked and killed your soldiers. I think you should not blame NATO. You should blame US directly.



Good point. 

It was basically the US forces which were involved. The SOF involved & the aerial assets involved were of US and under their direct command. 

NATO / ISAF same thing, but majority of the US forces work independently under the US command, looked after by CENTCOM. 

One of the major reason that Pentagon / White House / State Deptt is giving press conferences rather then things happeningat NATO HQs or ISAF HQs. 

These were US forces and they did it deliberately / knowingly.

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## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> Reacting without reading carefully generally ends with an embarrassing realization. It would really help if you read the 1st line of my post and think again..


 
Point 1 being that each and every post of yours so far on this topic has been one track and without merit it is amazing that embarrassment is still far from realization! Point 2, read & understand the post in context of overall arguments and try to climb out of this small little shell where you cannot understand or decipher the broader message.

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## Mav3rick

Secur said:


> They have defended you and the existence of the Pakistan for the last 60+ years ... Have you forgotten that ? Or you seriously think that fighting NATO is so easy as your posts seem to imply ? What defiance would the army have shown when Musharraf himself agreed to become a partner in WoT ? Raymond Davis issue has nothing to do with the army but the civilian Government so no need to score brownie points ... About drone attacks , I ask you does the corrupt Govt of Pakistan has the will and guts to order such a move ? PA isn't some rag tag militia to mutiny against their command ...
> 
> I have told you before ... Continue criticizing the top brass but not for a second try to forget and mock the sacrifices of the army who have died protecting the country ...


 
So what do you propose should we do to this small scale war that the US is already waging against us covertly and at times overtly? What do you propose we do if the US decides to expand the drone strikes to Quetta, Lahore, Islamabad and eventually Karachi? I think we need to climb out of this mentality of some of my countrymen who love to bend over!


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Mav3rick said:


> So what do you propose should we do to this small scale war that the US is already waging against us covertly and at times overtly? What do you propose we do if the US decides to expand the drone strikes to Quetta, Lahore, Islamabad and eventually Karachi? I think we need to climb out of this mentality of some of my countrymen who love to bend over!


*Small scale war only increase hate and Hate grows extremist*


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## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> BTW, if it makes you feel better, the same holds true (though will take a little bit longer) in a battle between India and USA too... There is Patriotism, and then there is foolish optimism.. One needs to know the difference between the 2


 
You consider them invincible Gods but history is full of lessons where the mighty and powerful are humbled by weak but determined foes. My fellow Pakistani's have more determination to defend the country then any country can have to destroy it, by God!

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## Mav3rick

hellfire said:


> do you think anyone cares? do you think that once the air assets of NATO started attacking your positions, the same was not relayed back to the respective formation headquarters? Do you think all soldiers were killed simultaneously that message that they were under air attack could not be passed? If anyone in Pakistan believes that then they deserve to be treated like crap like has been done.
> 
> US coolly killed your troops, roamed around the area for 02 hours and you guys could do noting except make impotent statements .... and praise your COAS's stupid statement of giving permission to troops to retaliate. In all likelihood your top brass including your Army Brass was in loop and they did nothing knowing they can do nothing. You engage US forces in air battle once, and then you see the fun.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Ofcourse a go ahead was given by Pakistan, that is why for two hours you could not scramble your aircrafts for strikes back at air assets which attacked your troops. Why waste bandwidth? You guys have had it. All have sold you too down the drain


 
Now see, this is what I have been trying to tell you Indians for so long but for some reason the point keeps missing the mark! Once the US engages Pakistan in a full scale aerial combat, we will take out all Airfields where their Jets take off from....no fields, no planes, no more attacks!

Oh, and yes their defenses can be penetrated, no system is unbeatable.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

yeh uss ko dara tay hain jo dar jay 

whenever these cowards were engaged with true mujahideen we saw how they were crying. 

We will be fighting in our home and they r way away from their home and how many of us they will kill? 

yeh itni bari fouj , missile kis din k liyai hain?

TARIQ


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## President Camacho

RaptorRX707 said:


> Maybe this message gave NATO to think twice. Do we expect Kiyani to sit and no statements comments? I think, this urgent message is helping all of us to cool down or satisfy audiences. It is same tricks from the previous OBL raid. There are already three strikes hitting hard on Pakistan (OBL, Mehran, now Checkpost Attacks).
> 
> Pakistan have self-right to defence to protect their country in assertives ways, not aggressives. Recently NATO boss Allen has ordered NATO to step back away from buffer zone, which is a bit good things.
> 
> PAF must act immediately, that's all.
> 
> 
> I fear, there are some low-level or medium level army (angry) or sympathizers want to get rid of Kiyani or assassinate him in order to take a charge of Pakistan control since thousands Pakistani and 4000 soldiers died. That's what Kiyani worried.



I agree with your points Raptor, all of them.

But what is confusing to me is this:-

The troops deployed on the border have the right to defend themselves. If need be, they have the right to seek reinforcements too. Gen. Kayani made a statement that the CoC (Chain of Command) need not be followed by the troops, if under attack. Does it mean, that before his statement on CoC came out, the troops were to seek out the higher authority whether to defend themselves?

In essence, what I am asking is, how does it (breaking of CoC) make a difference in the position and situation of the troops deployed on the border if they do come under attack? They are supposed to defend themselves anyway, whether CoC is in place, or not! 

The only difference I see is, it will become even more difficult in the coming times to ascertain which side of the border was at fault - if such an attack takes place again - So why mince the words, and make it appear even uglier?

Mere words won't fetch anything - let the things, that are need of the hour, be in place, but reserve the words to keep them from affecting the situation adversely.

With such anti-Pakistan sentiments rife across the western border, and such anti-American sentiments inside Pakistan (I bet a lot within the PA too), such breaking of CoC may raise the frequency of similar clashes, and the country may be heading toward some sort of war of attrition. 

Many in here will say that Pakistan cannot just sit back and watch its sovereignty get violated. But what I am saying is, wisdom calls for minimizing the losses because Pakistan is not doing very well in all its sectors. 

It is simply not in its right time, nor in its right in position to sustain the offensive coming in from all the directions, even more so when the adversary is aware of all its weaknesses.

Like Markham said - For all your days prepare, meet them ever alike: When you are the Anvil bear, when you are the Hammer, strike.

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## Mav3rick

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Assalam alaikum
> 
> do we have some kind of missiles ( shoulder fired ) that can take even the nata heli down
> 
> TARIQ


 
Anza II & Anza III are excellent MANPADS that can down any latest attack helicopter.

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## Irfan Baloch

Mav3rick said:


> Anza II & Anza III are excellent MANPADS that can down any latest attack helicopter.



they need to defeat the IR jammers and countermeasures of the copter and have to be within range and surprise the Helicopter which means they cant be at the target location of the helicopter but in the path that the Helicopter may likely take and after firing the missile, make a run for it before the wingman responds with his gun or rockets.

@President Camacho
have you seen the video of the destroyed posts? the reinforcements cant reach there that easy, they have to walk and climb up to that place. the only possible reinforcements were through heli drop or the PAF jets.
so what would have the helicopters drop troops could have done apart from dying like the soldiers on the post already? they needed good enough air defence systems already deployed there that could have thwarted the attack, manpads were useless because the helis were firing range, leaving the only useful reinforcement and that being the PAF who didnt show up and in my personal opinion they should have but they saw the trap setup by the Americans

the helicopters would have fallen in Afghanistan or the US Jets flying the CAP nearby would have engaged and taken out the PAF fighters.

during Soviet occupation, our ROE stated that PAF would only engage if it was sure that the downed enemy craft will fall within Pakistan and Soviets wont have any excuse to blame Pakistan for aggression and mount an all out assault. ok we did have American planes but in it was only us who fought the air war with the super power and succeeded. The Soviet and communist Afghan Hinds used to violate the airspace and attacked the Afghan refuge camps near the borders too and sometimes used to get a way with it if they were hovering over the borders.

I don&#8217;t know what else did a third word country besieged by terrorism and hyper active super power could have done. We used our options by boycotting the conference, stopping the supplies and scaling down our cooperation in the drone war against the terrorists. For now that&#8217;s where our response shall end.

What happens in the future is anyone&#8217;s guess. Americans might launch even more brazen and provocative attack and might get away with it yet again (being a sole superpower has its benefits) or maybe they get a rude reception and then they return to base with casualties. Or the sense prevails and this all never happens.
So lets wait and see how this will play out but I can make a better prediction of what the Americans might do, depending on the outcome of their own investigation where they are the Judge & Jury and accused

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Irfan Baloch said:


> they need to defeat the IR jammers and countermeasures of the copter and have to be within range and surprise the Helicopter which means they cant be at the target location of the helicopter but in the path that the Helicopter may likely take and after firing the missile, make a run for it before the wingman responds with his gun or rockets.



if i can down it would not mind if i could not run away as long as i hit it 

TARIQ

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## regular

Irfan Baloch said:


> that is right
> 
> NATO will take us seriously once we can take out Molana Aunty of Red Mosque who says that dead Pakistan Soldiers dont deserve Islamic burial or prayers and also hang people like Malik Ishaq who walk out free despite admitting personally killing 90 people in front of the judge.
> 
> when our own citizens make a mockery of the writ of the state and its sovereignty with impunity then outsiders will never take us seriously.
> 
> my personal Opinion is that PAF should have made an appearence on the scene maybe just a flight pass within our borders to make the Helis halt their attacks and run for Afghansitan but that never happened. since PAF is not headed by Kiyani so I wont blame him for that.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------


Yes! exactly I meant the same thing. At least showing the faces by our PAF at the incident spot , the precious lives of our poor soldiers/officers could have been saved. It is so sad that the elites of our PAF and Army created the reason that our communication system was disturbed. What the heck is this answer from the professional Army 7th in the world...??? How they are going to defend our country from a full scale invasion whereas our PAF failed to respond to 2 helis only. If they are so much scared of their lives then they must leave/quit our armed forces now. Our armed forces must be ready to take the lives of our enemies in case of threat. I guess this is the last chance for our ruling elites either Civil or military otherwise they must go home or hung up to the wall for treason......

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## iPhone

F.O.X said:


> US has made mistakes likes these 3 times in past , and guess what they were investigated too , but No Results , no punishment . There is a reason why Pakistan has decided not to Take part & trust US investigation.
> 
> Mistake or not it was US/NATO' fault , They should have been professional enough to know what the hell they were going to strike .
> 
> First you people Mess up & then claim it was a mistake , Very Good strategy by US .



these ppl here who are harping investigation, investigation, even they dont believe their bullshit. Deep down even they know the culprits of this 'mistake' are going to walk away scott free.


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## Mav3rick

Irfan Baloch said:


> they need to defeat the IR jammers and countermeasures of the copter and have to be within range and surprise the Helicopter which means they cant be at the target location of the helicopter but in the path that the Helicopter may likely take and after firing the missile, make a run for it before the wingman responds with his gun or rockets.


 
ANZA MK-III incorporates advanced ECCM systems with dual band infrared seeking system that is resistant to IR jammers and can distinguish b/w targets and countermeasures such as flares. As I said, it can down any latest attack heli.

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## regular

Mav3rick said:


> ANZA MK-III incorporates advanced ECCM systems with dual band infrared seeking system that is resistant to IR jammers and can distinguish b/w targets and countermeasures such as flares. As I said, it can down any latest attack heli.


Yes! needz to be powerful missiles with low to medium range at all our frontline posts to counter any intrusion at all cost....

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## Secur

_Anza Mk-III - Believed to be based on the Chinese QW-2 MANPADS,[32] modifications made to meet Pakistan Army requirements include a new firing unit similar to the Russian 9K38 Igla MANPADS.[10][33] All-aspect attack capability and improved ECCM capability. The minimum altitude of 10 m gives capability to attack very low flying helicopters and cruise missiles. Also has a vehicle-mounted launcher variant.[11]
_

Length (missile and booster)	1.59 m
Weight (launcher and missile) 18 kg
Missile weight 11.32 kg
Propulsion Solid fuel rocket motor (solid fuel booster rocket on launch)
Guidance Dual-band infra-red homing seeker
Warhead HE fragmentation (containing 1.42 kg HE) with contact and graze fusing
Average cruise speed	>600 m/s
Slant range 6,000 m
Altitude 10 m to 3,500 m
Weapon reaction time	3.5 s
Ready from the march	10 s
Battery life	50 s

I think its more than enough to down a apache ... One just needs the political will to do it ...

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## hatf IX

Secur said:


> _Anza Mk-III - Believed to be based on the Chinese QW-2 MANPADS,[32] modifications made to meet Pakistan Army requirements include a new firing unit similar to the Russian 9K38 Igla MANPADS.[10][33] All-aspect attack capability and improved ECCM capability. The minimum altitude of 10 m gives capability to attack very low flying helicopters and cruise missiles. Also has a vehicle-mounted launcher variant.[11]
> _
> 
> Length (missile and booster)	1.59 m
> Weight (launcher and missile) 18 kg
> Missile weight 11.32 kg
> Propulsion Solid fuel rocket motor (solid fuel booster rocket on launch)
> Guidance Dual-band infra-red homing seeker
> Warhead HE fragmentation (containing 1.42 kg HE) with contact and graze fusing
> Average cruise speed	>600 m/s
> Slant range 6,000 m
> Altitude 10 m to 3,500 m
> Weapon reaction time	3.5 s
> Ready from the march	10 s
> Battery life	50 s
> 
> I think its more enough to down a apache ... One just needs the political will to do it ...



yes man its more than enough for helicopters . . . of any kind and size . . . .






---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 AM ----------




regular said:


> Yes! needz to be powerful missiles with low to medium range at all our frontline posts to counter any intrusion at all cost....



MANPAD missiles like anza and stinger are enough for helis, for jets we need medium and high altitude SAM's

i have seen a video of afghan war where mujahideen destroyed Russian attack heli with RPG, and it fell like a rock from the SKY.

if heli can be destroyed with RPG than it will be hell easy with MANPAD guided missile.

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## Irfan Baloch

hatf IX said:


> MANPAD missiles like anza and stinger are enough for helis, for jets we need medium and high altitude SAM's
> 
> i have seen a video of afghan war where mujahideen destroyed Russian attack heli with RPG, and it fell like a rock from the SKY.
> 
> if heli can be destroyed with RPG than it will be hell easy with MANPAD guided missile.



for RPG the firer needs to be within 400m of the target and it can only happen when he is almost underneath it or the helicopter is landing or dropping troops from ropes. same goes with Manpads that they need to be less than their maximum distance to eb effective. thus giving less time to the helicopter to react.

indeed all above discussion is based on assumption that Americans decide to target Pakistani posts on a regular bases like their drone strikes on suspected Taliban/ AQ terrorist locations.

but once that starts happening then it wont stay at that level and may move to the next level of Jets where PAF would have to make an appearance for its name sake.

then kiss the peace goodbye. for sure Taliban will have a lot of willing recruits. I guess it will be Iran that will get the blame for helping Pakistan in the fight against the Americans. But wait, Americans are already blaming them for helping Taliban, the mortal enemies of Shias who have executed the Iranian diplomats and nationals wherever they found them during their time in power. It makes perfect sense for Americans to blame someone else for anything no matter how ridiculous that maybe.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The UK Telegraph appears to be suggesting that American officials are accepting the Pakistani account of 'the US providing the wrong coordinates to the Pakistani liaison officer' - still some unanswered questions, especially regarding the duration of the US attacks on the two posts, even after Pakistani officials had communicated with NATO officials regarding Pakistani bases being attacked.

Pakistan friendly fire deaths due to US officers' "errors" - Telegraph

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## RazPaK

> The UK Telegraph appears to be suggesting that American officials are accepting the Pakistani account of 'the US providing the wrong coordinates to the Pakistani liaison officer' - still some unanswered questions, especially regarding the duration of the US attacks on the two posts, even after Pakistani officials had communicated with NATO officials regarding Pakistani bases being attacked.
> 
> Pakistan friendly fire deaths due to US officers' "errors" - Telegraph



Another oopsies moment by the US. I wonder in what creative way they sweep this one under the rug.


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## VelocuR

Maybe Pakistan Army had this option to try this example of brilliant boys shooting down Mi-24A HIND&#65279; 

Zigmas shooting down an Apache Helicopter - YouTube




Charlie Wilson&#39;s War (8/9) Movie CLIP - Anti-Helicopter Light Missile (2007) HD - YouTube







6 US helicopters shot down in 15 days in Afghanistan 

6 US helicopters shot down in 15 days in Afghanistan - YouTube


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## Awesome

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The UK Telegraph appears to be suggesting that American officials are accepting the Pakistani account of 'the US providing the wrong coordinates to the Pakistani liaison officer' - still some unanswered questions, especially regarding the duration of the US attacks on the two posts, even after Pakistani officials had communicated with NATO officials regarding Pakistani bases being attacked.
> 
> Pakistan friendly fire deaths due to US officers' "errors" - Telegraph



So Americans went to attack Position A, asked Pakistan if Pakistan has any troops in Position B, and Pakistan said it doesn't have any troops in Position B, and then America went ahead and attacked Position A?

So much back and forth and the no one in America figured out they are talking about to positions?

Sounds bogus way to say we're not complicit, we're just incompetent.

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## hatf IX

Irfan Baloch said:


> for RPG the firer needs to be within 400m of the target and it can only happen when he is almost underneath it or the helicopter is landing or dropping troops from ropes. same goes with Manpads that they need to be less than their maximum distance to eb effective. thus giving less time to the helicopter to react.
> 
> indeed all above discussion is based on assumption that Americans decide to target Pakistani posts on a regular bases like their drone strikes on suspected Taliban/ AQ terrorist locations.
> 
> but once that starts happening then it wont stay at that level and may move to the next level of Jets where PAF would have to make an appearance for its name sake.
> 
> then kiss the "******" peace goodbye. for sure Taliban will have a lot of willing recruits. I guess it will be Iran that will get the blame for helping Pakistan in the fight against the Americans. But wait, Americans are already blaming them for helping Taliban, the mortal enemies of Shias who have executed the Iranian diplomats and nationals wherever they found them during their time in power. It makes perfect sense for Americans to blame someone else for anything no matter how ridiculous that maybe.



irfan bahi (i dont know what to call) 

the rpg was fire from a mountain top and heli was about 300m away . . . . . my village mate has that video, it was on you tube also but right now i am unable to fined it


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Asim Aquil said:


> So Americans went to attack Position A, asked Pakistan if Pakistan has any troops in Position B, and Pakistan said it doesn't have any troops in Position B, and then America went ahead and attacked Position A?
> 
> So much back and forth and the no one in America figured out they are talking about to positions?
> 
> Sounds bogus way to say we're not complicit, we're just incompetent.



Still sounds like hogwash - how do you get the coordinates that wrong? Did US troops on the ground have no idea where they were? How did the air support end up at the correct location?

Why were the Pakistanis the only ones given the wrong coordinates here?


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## VelocuR

President Camacho said:


> I agree with your points Raptor, all of them.
> 
> But what is confusing to me is this:-
> 
> *The troops deployed on the border have the right to defend themselves. If need be, they have the right to seek reinforcements too. Gen. Kayani made a statement that the CoC (Chain of Command) need not be followed by the troops, if under attack. Does it mean, that before his statement on CoC came out, the troops were to seek out the higher authority whether to defend themselves?*
> 
> In essence, what I am asking is, how does it (breaking of CoC) make a difference in the position and situation of the troops deployed on the border if they do come under attack? They are supposed to defend themselves anyway, whether CoC is in place, or not!
> 
> The only difference I see is, it will become even more difficult in the coming times to ascertain which side of the border was at fault -* if such an attack takes place again - So why mince the words, and make it appear even uglier?*
> 
> Mere words won't fetch anything - let the things, that are need of the hour, be in place, but reserve the words to keep them from affecting the situation adversely.
> 
> With such anti-Pakistan sentiments rife across the western border, and such anti-American sentiments inside Pakistan (I bet a lot within the PA too), such breaking of CoC may raise the frequency of similar clashes, and the country may be heading toward some sort of war of attrition.
> 
> *Many in here will say that Pakistan cannot just sit back and watch its sovereignty get violated. But what I am saying is, wisdom calls for minimizing the losses because Pakistan is not doing very well in all its sectors. *
> 
> It is simply not in its right time, nor in its right in position to sustain the offensive coming in from all the directions, even more so when the adversary is aware of all its weaknesses.
> 
> Like Markham said - For all your days prepare, meet them ever alike: When you are the Anvil bear, when you are the Hammer, strike.


 
I have no comment, there is no reinforcement, no PAF response, no China response, no communication response by COAS, no Talibans response, no medical experts availables, no witness reports. 

And there were no response during OBL raid within forty minutes and now increased to 2-5 hours slaughting Pakistan Army in the borders. 

The key role here is *Apache's Jammer system is perfect accurate to mute all communications including wireless. A recent installed radars in the West will be jammed again. Cutt off! *

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## unicorn




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## Irfan Baloch

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The UK Telegraph appears to be suggesting that American officials are accepting the Pakistani account of 'the US providing the wrong coordinates to the Pakistani liaison officer' - still some unanswered questions, especially regarding the duration of the US attacks on the two posts, even after Pakistani officials had communicated with NATO officials regarding Pakistani bases being attacked.
> 
> Pakistan friendly fire deaths due to US officers' "errors" - Telegraph



AM thanks for linking this neutral post that agrees with our story. I don&#8217;t know what our noble critics will make of it? I always suspected malicious intent and that is very much clear now.

the failure or complicity at three levels.

the ones requesting the strike
the ones giving the go ahead
and the ones actually carrying out the strike

indeed, never a business as usual anymore. What&#8217;s more, the reports of American fighters flying the CAP across the border further complicates this &#8220;alliance&#8221; this whole operation is rotten to the core. The helicopters returning but then coming back to resume their attack only suggests a premeditated attack. As far as the apology is concerned, there wont be any and neither should we expect or accept it and the Americans are the ones to blame, hiding behind the NATO&#8217;s name and making the German commander Gen Jacob to answer all the awkward questions is not going to hide the truth much longer despite their history of cover ups and hushing the whistle blowers regarding deliberate civilian deaths and their kill squads collecting teeth and fingers of the slain civilians as trophies and their snipers baiting the Iraqi metal scavengers to pick up stuff and then shoot them dead on &#8220;suspicion&#8221; of planting IEDs or stealing American equipment in Iraq. 

Yet these are the same Americans who are willing to hold talks secretly with Haqqanis that are arranged by the ISI but in the open everyone who is anyone in American administration is busy blaming us for their failure in Afghanistan and citing our links within Haqqanis as support. Going by this definition Pakistan Army&#8217;s DGMO would be &#8220;supporting&#8221; the Indian DGMO because they keep contact with each other.

that&#8217;s what happens when there are too many chiefs in the village, and that&#8217;s what the American leadership looks like, suggesting some inter department and state institutions rivalries and tug of war and a very good public speaking president strangely keeping a mum. So who knows if this whole idea of teaching Pakistan a lesson was the brainchild of one of the many hawks within the US administration specially when the next US elections are in the horizon it helps to show the current government much more tough and ruthless than the tea party goons and Republican hardliners.

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## Peaceful Civilian

I think Pakistan government and ARMY took right decision AFTER NATO attacks FOR new rules of engagement. Reason is because this is highly considered deliberate attack by the NATO(done by US). Also further strong steps for kicking USA out from Shamsi Airbase in 15 days is extreme/right measure.. No need to Panic too much. Just stop the NATO supplies till official apologize from Obama and 
NATO and force them to Assure Pakistan "not to mistake again". But if they does in future, We will retaliate back with full force inspite the consequences and results. Because there is nothing important than country Sovereignty, Lives and integrity.

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## Secur

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/144675-pakistan-russia-threat-afghan-war.html


*Days after the Pakistanis closed their borders to the passage of fuel and supplies for the NATO-led war effort in Afghanistan, for very different reasons the Russians threatened to close the alternative Russia-controlled Northern Distribution Network (NDN). The dual threats are significant even if they dont materialize. If both routes are cut, supplying Western forces operating in Afghanistan becomes impossible. Simply raising the possibility of cutting supply lines forces NATO and the United States to recalculate their position in Afghanistan.
*
New interesting development ! Lets see how events turn out in future ...


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## unicorn

*Rejecting Apology, U.S. May Hasten End of Pakistan as Client*


*WASHINGTON, Dec 3, 2011 (IPS) - President Barack Obama has sided with U.S. military and Defence Department officials in rejecting a proposal by the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan for a U.S. apology for last weekend's attack on two Pakistani border posts, and approving an investigation into the attack that won't be completed until Dec. 23 at the earliest.*

The White House and the military bloc are gambling that the lengthy investigation into the attack that killed 25 Pakistani troops will defuse popular Pakistani anger and that final report will allow the Obama administration to return to a more aggressive policy toward Pakistan in 2012. 

But the course Obama has chosen is likely to further aggravate the anti-U.S. sentiment in Pakistan that has boiled over in response to the violation of Pakistani sovereignty and unprecedented number of deaths of Pakistani troops. U.S. diplomats in Pakistan and State Department officials are seriously concerned that the rejection of any acknowledgement of U.S. responsibility for nearly three weeks will push Pakistan further toward a potentially irreversible break in relations with the United States. 

Pakistan has vowed to close "permanently" the U.S.-NATO logistics routes through which more than half of the supplies needed for the war in Afghanistan must pass. _Despite the development of an alternative set of routes through Central Asian republics, that closure will seriously constrain the U.S. ability to wage war in Afghanistan within four to six weeks_, according to Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, who usually reflects the latest thinking of Pentagon and CIA officials. 

Although Washington hopes that decision will be reversed in the coming weeks, some U.S. officials warn that the closure could harden under popular political pressure. 

Serious concern about rapidly rising anti-U.S. sentiment forcing the hand of the Pakistani government led the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter, to urge the White House to move quickly to assuage Pakistani anger, according to the New York Times and the CNN security blog "Security Clearance". 

Munter reportedly told a group of White House officials that if the United States has evidence that Pakistani troops had actually fired at U.S. troops first, it should provide it to Pakistan, but that if it has evidence that U.S. forces were at fault, the White House should issue a formal apology in order to prevent far more serious deterioration of relations. 

Defence Department officials argued, however, that no statement on the attack should be issued by the White House until the formal investigation is completed, and that the expression of condolences by the White House press secretary and cabinet officials was sufficient until then, according to a report in the New York Times first published Nov. 30. 

The investigation launched by CENTCOM commander Gen. James N. Mattis is to be completed and a report submitted by Dec. 23, but the letter from Mattis states that the officer in charge may request additional time to complete it. 

At the daily State Department briefing by spokesman Mark Toner Friday, a reporter referred to "concern expressed by U.S. officials in this building&#8230;that the window is rapidly closing for the United States to come up with some kind of explanation for the Pakistanis." 

*The Defence Department argument that the United States can keep the Pakistani government and population waiting for more than three weeks for the results of the investigation is based in part on the longstanding assumption that the Pakistani military will be forced to accommodate U.S. interests, because of its dependence on U.S. assistance. *

Decades of patron-client relations between the Pakistani military and their U.S. military and CIA counterparts have created a widespread belief in the military and CIA that Pakistan is too dependent on the United States for assistance to cut loose completely from U.S. policy. 

A Dec. 1 column by the Washington Post's Ignatius shows that the notion of Pakistan is client stateremains intact among Pentagon officials. 

Ignatius suggested that the Pakistani military will soon have to wake up from its gestures of opposition to U.S. policy - especially the cutoff of NATO supplies for Afghanistan. 

"Continued Pakistani reprisals make sense only (if) Islamabad is heading toward a real and lasting break with Washington," he wrote, adding, "I don't get the sense that's what Pakistan's leaders really want." 

So the Pakistanis "will need to figure out how to climb down the hill," he wrote, "now that they have forcefully planted the flag." 

The justification for the military and DOD officials to oppose the admission of responsibility for those deaths and to express regret for it is not based on a conviction that U.S. troops were innocent in the Nov. 26 attack. The Nov. 30 New York Times report said DOD officials "did not deny some American culpability in the episode&#8230;." 

*That private admission suggests that the real reason for rejecting an apology is that it would shift the focus of media attention away from the Pakistani policy of allowing insurgents to have safe havens in Pakistan from which to carry out operations in Afghanistan. 

U.S. military and Defence Department officials desperately need to make the case that Pakistani complicity in Taliban insurgent attacks across the border in Afghanistan is the primary obstacle to the success of the 10-year U.S.-NATO war in Afghanistan.

That interest can only be served if the investigation ordered by CENTCOM concludes that there is no reason for the United States to apologise, because of the threat to U.S. troops from insurgents who have been protected by the Pakistani army. *

The investigation would have to give credibility to the claim by the U.S. Special Operations Forces (SOF) unit and its Afghan counterpart that they pursued the insurgents who attacked them across the border to a location close to, if not inside, an encampment that turned out to be a Pakistani border post. 

A series of news media stories in the days after the incident reported just such accounts from members of the SOF commando unit, but the Pakistani army command provided details that refuted it. The U.S. military has denied that the attack on the border posts was deliberate, but it has also acknowledged privately to the New York Times that U.S. troops were culpable in the deaths of the Pakistani troops. 

The U.S. military investigation is supposed to be open to Pakistani participation, though not as an equal partner. But Pentagon spokesman George Little confirmed Friday that Pakistan has elected not to participate in it. 

Maj. Gen. Ashfaq Nadeem, the Pakistani Army's director general of military operations, has pointed to earlier "joint investigations" of U.S. violations of Pakistani sovereignty as having "come to naught". He referred to "joint investigations" with the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) into the three U.S.-NATO attacks on Pakistani troops on Jun. 10, 2008, Dec. 30, 2010 and Jul. 17, 2011. 

The reports generated by those inquiries "give a version not based on facts as we know them", Nadeem said. 

The appointment of Brig. Gen. Stephen Clark to carry out the investigation of the attack on the Pakistani border posts raises yet another issue: whether the investigation will hold the SOF unit involved and the helicopter pilots attached to it fully accountable. 

Clark has spent virtually his entire military career in the Air Force Special Operations Command. 

The helicopter pilots who made crucial decisions during the assault on the border posts were almost certainly affiliated with the Air Force Special Operations Command. 

_*Even more than other branches of the military, Special Operations Forces officers are known for protecting other SOF personnel against any legal challenge. When he was commander of ISAF in 2010, SOF veteran Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal used two separate investigations to deflect charges that an SOF unit had covered up the killings of two pregnant women in a February 2010 night raid gone bad.*_ 

Gareth Porter is an investigative historian and journalist specialising in U.S. national security policy. The paperback edition of his latest book, "Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam", was published in 2006. 

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=106087

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## F.O.X

*Three NATO troops killed by bomb in Afghanistan
*


> (AFP) &#8211; 13 hours ago
> KABUL &#8212; Three troops from the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) were killed by a roadside bomb in eastern Afghanistan Saturday, officials said.
> ISAF did not say which country the dead troops were from or give further details of the incident, in line with policy.
> There are around 140,000 international troops in Afghanistan fighting a Taliban-led insurgency, 100,000 of them from the United States.
> "Three International Security Assistance Force members died following an improvised explosive device attack in eastern Afghanistan today," a spokesman for the NATO-led ISAF said.
> Many of the decade-long Afghan war's worst fighting takes place in eastern Afghanistan, which is close to the border with Pakistan.
> Pakistan closed its supply routes to NATO forces in Afghanistan after 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed by a NATO air strike last Saturday close to the mountainous, porous border, provoking a major diplomatic row between Islamabad and Washington.
> The latest incident takes to 542 the number of coalition troops killed in Afghanistan this year, according to an AFP tally based on that kept by independent website iCasualties.org.
> A total of 711 foreign troops were killed in Afghanistan last year, the highest annual total yet in the decade-long war triggered by a US-led invasion in 2001 which ousted the Taliban from power.
> Amid declining support for the war and fragile economies in the West, all foreign combat troops are due to withdraw from Afghanistan by the end of 2014, by which time Afghan forces and officials are set to be in control of the country.
> However, a substantial foreign troop mission training Afghan security forces is expected to remain beyond that time.
> A major international conference on the future of Afghanistan takes place in the German city of Bonn Monday.
> The meeting is set to discuss the process of transition from foreign to Afghan control of the country, the international community's long-term role in Afghanistan and badly stalled efforts to promote reconciliation with insurgents.
> But the event is set to be clouded by the absence of Pakistan, which is boycotting it in protest at the NATO air strike which killed its soldiers.



3 more down 20 to go . come on Taliban you can do batter.

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## Hellfire

BATMAN said:


> *Indians come to Afghanistan by free air transit from Pak airspace and in Afghanistan or via Iran.*



Only the civil component of our effort. The remaining comes via Muscat.


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## XYON

Let the NATO supply routes into Afghanistan stay closed all over Pakistan. Time to see if the American bullcrap about that not affecting the war in Afghanistan holds water or not!

Time for Pakistan to change the rules of the engagement and take its front place in this game of chess!


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## Jango

RaptorRX707 said:


> I have no comment, there is no reinforcement, no PAF response, no China response, no communication response by COAS, no Talibans response, no medical experts availables, no witness reports.
> 
> And there were no response during OBL raid within forty minutes and now increased to 2-5 hours slaughting Pakistan Army in the borders.
> 
> The key role here is *Apache's Jammer system is perfect accurate to mute all communications including wireless. A recent installed radars in the West will be jammed again. Cutt off! *



You don't just jam radars by a press of a button.

A big big misconception people have, after the OBL episode and now again.


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## Devil Soul

Official tours to US, NATO allied countries cancelled &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Devil Soul

US begins vacating Shamsi airbase
Published: December 4, 2011


QUETTA: An American aircraft reached Pakistan on Sunday to carry US nationals who are vacating the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan.

*Sources said that the aircraft landed in Pakistan today (Sunday), and the passengers were shifted to the aircraft amongst strict security. Officials from the Federal Investigation Agency (FIA) were also present at the site.*

Residents living around the area were told not to leave their homes while the American nationals were being shifted to the aircraft.

Pakistan demanded that the US leave the remote airbase used for drone flights within 15 days and blocked ground supply routes to US forces in Afghanistan, following the Nato attack on a military outpost on November 26 that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

The controversial airbase, located about 300 kilometres from Quetta, has been used as a key launch pad for drone strikes in Afghanistan and allegedly also for those carried out in Pakistans own tribal areas. This is the third time Pakistan has demanded the US to vacate the base. Similar demands were made after CIA operative Raymond Davis killed two Pakistanis in Lahore and in the aftermath of the unilateral US raid that killed Osama bin Laden.

*One US government source earlier told The Express Tribune that the US has spent months preparing for a possible eviction from the airbase by building up other drone launching and staging capability.*

Earlier this year, after the US raid that killed bin Laden, some Pakistani officials demanded that Washington vacate the Shamsi facility.

At the time, however, US officials said that American personnel would remain at the base and would continue to conduct drone flights.

*US officials had acknowledged that this time Pakistan appears much more resolute about carrying out the eviction threat.
*
Vacating the airbase was seen more as an inconvenience rather than a critical blow to drone operations, which the US also conducts from Afghanistan and possibly elsewhere.
US begins vacating Shamsi airbase &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Bukhari.syed

Time changes this is what the american's said at end of june.






---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

And now they are leaving it. A big defeat??????


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## mr42O

No other than Pakistani media was telling so dont know if that was true



Bukhari.syed said:


> Time changes this is what the american's said at end of june.


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## Doctor09

there is a news on GEO NEWS that a US airplane has arrived and they are loading equipments and leaving Shamsi airbase today


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## Devil Soul



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## regular

As we have contradictory reports from the US so this means they will not leave the base... they might leave to show on Geo News and comeback from the other side again....Our Govt and top Army commandz are in cohoots with the US/NATO for $$$... They are just showing a drama on media that we are vacating it but after some dayz that will be back in business once again with the US....secretly.......


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## Doctor09

regular said:


> As we have contradictory reports from the US so this means they will not leave the base... they might leave to show on Geo News and comeback from the other side again....Our Govt and top Army commandz are in cohoots with the US/NATO for $$$... They are just showing a drama on media that we are vacating it but after some dayz that will be back in business once again with the US....secretly.......


janab itni lambi sochun mein na he parhu tu behtar hai

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## Secur

^^ Why believe in conspiracy theories when you have credible reports of USA vacating the airbase ?  ... Check that Urdu excerpt , its sourcing the news from some unknown American personnel !!! and you guys actually believe that instead of trust worthy sources reporting otherwise ...


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## F.O.X

Bukhari.syed said:


> Time changes this is what the american's said at end of june.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------
> 
> And now they are leaving it. A big defeat??????



No.. No ....no.... Not again.

An 6 month old News , Why cant you people see dates & do a little research before posting something .

Unbelievable


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## Secur

Bukhari.syed said:


> Time changes this is what the american's said at end of june.


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## Irfan Baloch

hellfire said:


> Only the civil component of our effort. The remaining comes via Muscat.



can you share the "non-civilian" component that comes via Muscat?


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## Secur

> ISAF did not say which country the dead troops were from or give further details of the incident, in line with policy.


 What policy ? Keeping their nation in dark ?


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## Bukhari.syed

ISLAMABAD: Members of the Ministry of Defence and the armed forces have cancelled all their trips, scheduled or otherwise, to US and NATO member countries following the NATO air strike that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers a week ago.
Director General Joint Staff Headquarters, Lt. General Muhammad Asif was due to lead a 15 man delegation to America on a scheduled trip. A source close to the Lt. General said that the group was due to depart for the trip in the first week of December. However, following the NATO air strike, the trip has been cancelled.
Pakistan&#8217;s relations with the US and NATO have turned cold following an &#8220;unprovoked&#8221; NATO attack on a Pakistani check post on the Pak-Afghan border which left at least 24 soldiers dead and 12 injured. Pakistan says that the attack was unprovoked, and NATO continued their attack even as Pakistani forces requested them to stop.
On Friday, US said that Pakistan had elected out of a joint investigation into the attack. Pakistan also pulled out of the NATO sponsored Bonn Conference due to begin on Monday.
(Read: Pakistan&#8217;s absence in Bonn conference won&#8217;t make a difference: Kabul)
On Thursday, a letter from Chief of the Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani gave authority to field commanders to defend themselves in the event NATO forces attack, to even fire back.


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## sohail.ishaque

VTXSouls

QUETTA: An American aircraft reached Pakistan on Sunday to carry US nationals who are vacating the Shamsi airbase in Balochistan.

Sources said that the aircraft landed in Pakistan today (Sunday), and the passengers were shifted to the aircraft amongst strict security. Officials from the Federal Investigation Agency (FIA) were also present at the site.

Residents living around the area were told not to leave their homes while the American nationals were being shifted to the aircraft.

Pakistan demanded that the US leave the remote airbase used for drone flights within 15 days and blocked ground supply routes to US forces in Afghanistan, following the Nato attack on a military outpost on November 26 that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

The controversial airbase, located about 300 kilometres from Quetta, has been used as a key launch pad for drone strikes in Afghanistan and allegedly also for those carried out in Pakistans own tribal areas. This is the third time Pakistan has demanded the US to vacate the base. Similar demands were made after CIA operative Raymond Davis killed two Pakistanis in Lahore and in the aftermath of the unilateral US raid that killed Osama bin Laden.

One US government source earlier told The Express Tribune that the US has spent months preparing for a possible eviction from the airbase by building up other drone launching and staging capability.

Earlier this year, after the US raid that killed bin Laden, some Pakistani officials demanded that Washington vacate the Shamsi facility.

At the time, however, US officials said that American personnel would remain at the base and would continue to conduct drone flights.

US officials had acknowledged that this time Pakistan appears much more resolute about carrying out the eviction threat.

Vacating the airbase was seen more as an inconvenience rather than a critical blow to drone operations, which the US also conducts from Afghanistan and possibly elsewhere.


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## regular

After the next attack again we gonna come to know that Shamsi base is still with US.....thats how it works all the time here cuz we heard similiar newz last time too that US vacated the Shamsi airbase.....
Damn idiot, traitors sitting in our top positions.....


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## OrionHunter

Good riddance! RIP!


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## Devil Soul

already posted .. Mods can merge 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/144757-us-begins-vacating-shamsi-airbase.html

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## karan.1970

This will turn out to be a classical case of "Beware what you ask for.. You may get it..."


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## BATMAN

What ever..... Pakistan shall not waste any time in putting forward the request of handing over of those Afghan generals, who celebrated the funeral of Pakistani dead soldiers.


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## moha199

Bhai as much as i would agree with Pakistan but you can't act like a bully! *mark my words new attack will be coming to hush these kind of people who are extra ordinary jumping on the boat. This time will be funny because i'm a Pakistani but i also think! This time ill see how many PAF fighters fly and how many come straight down to ground, it will be a shbow but mark my words these neighbors to our east will be nailing us with shame. sad reality but truth. now count on that day and then tell me if i were wrong! i hope i'm wrong but i'm 100% sure that USA will put us on our shoes. *


Stealth said:


> WHAT A SUPER POWER ... when PAkistan threatening kaka Superpower dar gaya hahhahahahha
> 
> "either NATO forces come to buffer zone or not PAKISTAN SHOULD STICK TO SHAMSI AIRBASE CLEAR + NO NATO SUPPLY"
> 
> bare technology hey **** day kar chorengay tumahre technology ke !!


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## BATMAN

Rig Vedic said:


> Well that will certainly make it easier for Haqqanis and Taliban to come and go.



idiot...no one is leaving the border, ISAF is simply asked not to enter the buffer zone... because Pakistani soldiers have orders to shoot any thing they see close to its borders or deem a threat to there lives.


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## karan.1970

BATMAN said:


> What ever..... Pakistan shall not waste any time in putting forward the request of handing over of those Afghan generals, who celebrated the funeral of Pakistani dead soldiers.



This reminds me of a joke.. (dont mind)

Ek baar Ek Intelligent Software Engineer ek MNC mein interview dene jata hai. 
Interview mein manager poochta hai 

So.. Mr. Software Engineer, what do u expect for the salary? 
"Software Engineer: "Jyada nahi saab, bus mahine ka 80 hazaar rupaye, Ek chota sa bunglow, Ek gadi, ar kuch naukar-chakar" 

Manager: "Ok Mr Software Engineer, Hum aapko mahiney ka ek Lakh pachas hazzar rupayei, Ek bada sa bunglow in Nariman Point, Ek BMW gadi with a Driver, aap ke baccho ko school ka admission, aur 10 Naukar apki wife ke liye" 

Software Engineer is very excited 
Software Engineer: "Kyo saab majaak kartey ho!" 

Manager: "Shuru kisne kiya tha?"


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## moha199

Musharraf had jaqababad airport cleared from Americans. meaning that Americans were told to leave it if i'm not mistaking it was back in 2007. All americans were told to leave and the airport was cleared by the mid of 2007 . but then we had our beloved *so called* democracy and now we are hearing that americans are again using that airport. Now who brought them back in? Zardari or Mia ji.... together?


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## W.11

karan.1970 said:


> This reminds me of a joke.. (dont mind)
> 
> Ek baar Ek Intelligent Software Engineer ek MNC mein interview dene jata hai.
> Interview mein manager poochta hai
> 
> So.. Mr. Software Engineer, what do u expect for the salary?
> "Software Engineer: "Jyada nahi saab, bus mahine ka 80 hazaar rupaye, Ek chota sa bunglow, Ek gadi, ar kuch naukar-chakar"
> 
> Manager: "Ok Mr Software Engineer, Hum aapko mahiney ka ek Lakh pachas hazzar rupayei, Ek bada sa bunglow in Nariman Point, Ek BMW gadi with a Driver, aap ke baccho ko school ka admission, aur 10 Naukar apki wife ke liye"
> 
> Software Engineer is very excited
> Software Engineer: "Kyo saab majaak kartey ho!"
> 
> Manager: "Shuru kisne kiya tha?"



HHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH HOHOOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOH HEHEHEHEHEHHEEHEHEHEHEHHE KHEKHEKHEKHEKHEKHE

WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFF

what a joke........

---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------




moha199 said:


> Musharraf had jaqababad airport cleared from Americans. meaning that Americans were told to leave it if i'm not mistaking it was back in 2007. All americans were told to leave and the airport was cleared by the mid of 2007 . but then we had our beloved *so called* democracy and now we are hearing that americans are again using that airport. Now who brought them back in? Zardari or Mia ji.... together?



who brought NRO government???


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## Devil Soul

moha199 said:


> Musharraf had jaqababad airport cleared from Americans. meaning that Americans were told to leave it if i'm not mistaking it was back in 2007. All americans were told to leave and the airport was cleared by the mid of 2007 . but then we had our beloved *so called* democracy and now we are hearing that americans are again using that airport. Now who brought them back in? Zardari or Mia ji.... together?



i guess they neva left in 1st place ......


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## Bukhari.syed

Stepping down as they do not have any other option....


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## Fracker

WHat? I thought that's buffer zone, and no country should have move into this prior to all sides approvals? why they are roaming around?


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## moha199

sir they left and it was vacant for sure i hate Youtube for not keeping old links which are not viewed for long! It was all well known.


Devil Soul said:


> i guess they neva left in 1st place ......


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## Awesome

Define "Buffer zone"?

Also does this mean "hot pursuit" has been abandoned?


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## karan.1970

Whats ATO??


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## OrionHunter

Emmie said:


> But how authentic is this news?


It is authentic. It's high time they issued these orders to avoid skirmishes in future.

And considering that Kayani has given permission to retaliate in self defence, it was wise on the part of NATO to keep away or face consequences that could be a huge embarrassment to them and the US of A! They hate taking casualties!


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## moha199

KarachiPunk said:


> who brought NRO government???


 Hmm who cleared zardari from 7 cases in Pakistan? hmm let me think. dajal justice opps sorry CJ dajal chaudry lol meaning iftikhar chaudry. now who elected PPP? hmm let me think  Musharraf right? i guess this is what you want to hear? well sorry but it were the public of Pakistan which elected PPP, now let me also think, who elected Zardari? hmm house then Parliament  opps wait it come down to people of Pakistan for electing Zardari because they elected PPP /PMLN members who voted for Zardari Along with all political parties. now let me also think? i guess this sounds wrong because we are Pakistani and we don't ever wanna take blame this is our genetic problem, now what should we do?  oh let's blame one guy like always! hurray let's blame Musharraf.... *Pakistan ka Allah he hafiz*


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## Developereo

Meaningless gesture.

It will take what, one phone call, to reverse this decision and put NATO troops back on the border within ten minutes?


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## moha199

Asim Aquil said:


> Define "Buffer zone"?
> 
> Also does this mean "hot pursuit" has been abandoned?


 i don't think so brother but hot pursuit will be in only that buffer zone, like back in 2001-2007. 2 miles strip along the boarder which will be called buffer zone. Both NATO and Pakistani forces will be ordered to stay out of it. Anything moving in between will be a target. simple and easy. *beside boarder check post where civilians will enter and cross the boarder * easy and simple. it should off been like this post previous government!


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## W.11

the question is why pakistan army gave clearance for attack, this is insult in pakistan army, who wouldnt bother nato attacking civilians but killing its soldiers is a big deal

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## karan.1970

KarachiPunk said:


> the question is why pakistan army gave clearance for attack, this is insult in pakistan army, who wouldnt bother nato attacking civilians but killing its soldiers is a big deal



I dont think it was a clearance to attack. The NATO officers would have asked that if there is a Pakistani military presence in a given area and Pakistan would have responded in negative..


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## Bukhari.syed

karan.1970 said:


> I dont think it was a clearance to attack. The NATO officers would have asked that if there is a Pakistani military presence in a given area and Pakistan would have responded in negative..



Are you dreaming??? Today the satallites and GPS system is very common. They are not joker who didn't knew that..


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## W.11

karan.1970 said:


> I dont think it was a clearance to attack. The NATO officers would have asked that if there is a Pakistani military presence in a given area and Pakistan would have responded in negative..



im saying that army gave clearance because nato had given coordinates to attack some civilian place inside pakistan, so army said, ok, yhey could attack, they didnt know instead of civlians, nato were attacking the army check post

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## karan.1970

Bukhari.syed said:


> Are you dreaming??? Today the satallites and GPS system is very common. They are not joker who didn't knew that..



Dude, but if NATO officers gave wrong coordinates as per telegraph, then this error is possible.. No??

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## ajpirzada

so basically they gave wrong coordinates to the pakistanis but right coordinates to their aviation team :/

such an error is soooo possible... isnt it? 
statistically speaking, there is much greater probability that this was deliberate.

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## Jango

Yeah, they are leaving.

Security was reportedly strict around that place, people told to stay in their homes and huts.

Equipment is going first, the personnel will follow.


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## T90TankGuy

regular said:


> As we have contradictory reports from the US so this means they will not leave the base... they might leave to show on Geo News and comeback from the other side again....Our Govt and top Army commandz are in cohoots with the US/NATO for $$$... They are just showing a drama on media that we are vacating it but after some dayz that will be back in business once again with the US....secretly.......



where do you come up with these wonderful flights of fantasy? forget the fact there are valid sources giving us the truth . do you need to cloudy the water with your theories? stop degrading your self with these false reports mate.

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## Irfan Baloch

karan.1970 said:


> I dont think it was a clearance to attack. The NATO officers would have asked that if there is a Pakistani military presence in a given area and Pakistan would have responded in negative..





if you have seen the video and audio conversation of 2 American A-10 pilots that engaged a British column in Iraq, they did ask if there were any friendly units in the area and then they started the attack after getting the negative, despite the fact that British firing distress flares and clear NATO/ British markings on their vehicles (same as the Pakistani flag over the post) the giggles of the pilots over the injured crumbing over and falling from burning vehicles is changed in to cries and sobbing when the operator tells them that they hit a British convey.

So here either the Americans knowingly or by mistake gave wrong coordinates, got the negative answer from Pakistani HQ and then gave the go ahead to their pilots to attack. But I don&#8217;t know how clear were they in their questions about any Pakistani check posts, also any Pakistani troops within 3 or 4 KM of their requested area would have been communicated to them as part of procedure so there is a chance that Americans would have asked about something too far away that the answer from Pakistani HQ had to be a no that they had nothing there in that area.



Despite all this what is troubling is

They continued to attack when they received the blue on blue and ceasefire requests.
They, then returned and attacked both posts and levelled them to the ground.

This only points towards disregard towards ceasefire requests and a premeditated attack with full knowledge of who actually were their target.


Should the American pilots have clarified with their HQ that the suspected locations appear to be well dug in positions that appear to be established posts with a flag and communication antennas and aerials? (not a characteristic of terrorists and that too on a hilltop with no civilian population nearby). Maybe not if they had the same average intellect & attitude of the pilots over Baghdad who decided that the Associated press reporter was a terrorist and his video camera a rocket launcher and on that bases they killed him all other civilains around him and then celebrated the death of the children in a van by saying wow look one went right through the windshield haha, now Julian Assuage faces a possible death penalty (over &#8220;espionage&#8221; ) if he is extradited to America due to leaking videos like these.

No wonder Pakistan army refused to be part of their investigation farce because of the past experiences and deliberately dragging the date to end of December so that the story dies down and they can mount the pressure again with the usual premix of Haqqani support allegations and end it with &#8220;do more&#8221; bickering. Maybe such actions will help in showing the democrats as tough guys for the up coming elections against the Republicans but this attitude is hardly going to help in their plan to exit from Afghanistan in next 2 years time

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## Jango

In addition to what Irfan Baloch said, a white flag was also raised clearly on a tree branch thing.


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## saurav

Another Card gone...I hope Pakistan stops the Supply route for good...

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## regular

jbgt90 said:


> where do you come up with these wonderful flights of fantasy? forget the fact there are valid sources giving us the truth . do you need to cloudy the water with your theories? stop degrading your self with these false reports mate.


How U know about the facts....First they vacated the base after Raymond Davis arrest then they vacated the shamsi airbase after OBL raid . Now they vacating after this attack on our posts incident....I'm sure about the same thing happening within the near future too after next attack.....Sir! We don't care what the media sayz cuz they working for $$$ too.....

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## Chrome Missiles

Pakistan closing supply routes does not come as a surprise to many. 

Fact :USA does not use Pakistani supply routes to transport high-value/ lethal / high priority equipment. Toilet papers ? Yes. Beyond that , no.

Fact : NATO supply trucks occasionally do get ambushed in Pakistan.

Fact : Pakistan is the life support for most, if not all, terror entities.

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## Irfan Baloch

nuclearpak said:


> In addition to what Irfan Baloch said, a white flag was also raised clearly on a tree branch thing.



it is not clear if it was raised during attack or after the attack to stop them from Attacking when Army was picking up the bodies of the murdered soldiers.

there was always a chance that they would have attacked again like they have done in Afghanistan so many times by attacking the funerals. so many stories remain untold because there is no media coverage when Americans go out for killing in the name of WoT


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## Soumitra

*US starts vacating Shamsi airbase in Pakistan*

ISLAMABAD: The US on Sunday started pulling out its nationals from Shamsi airbase, reportedly used by CIA- operated drones, on the orders of Pakistan government after a deadly NATO cross-border airsrike killed 24 of its soldiers. 

An American aircraft arrived in Pakistan to fly out US nationals. After the aircraft landed, the US nationals boarded it amidst strict security, TV news channels reported. 

Officials from the Federal Investigation Agency were present at the airbase, the reports said. 

Residents living around Shamsi airbase were told not to leave their homes while the American nationals were being taken to the aircraft. There was no official word on the development from Pakistani or American officials. 

Pakistan asked the US to vacate the remote airbase in Balochistan within 15 days and blocked routes used to transport supplies to US and allied forces in Afghanistan after a cross-border NATO air strike on two military posts killed 24 Pakistani soldiers on November 26. 

Reports have said the Shamsi airbase, located about 300 km from Balochistan capital Quetta, has been used by US drone to target militants in Pakistan's restive tribal belt. 

Pakistan reportedly leased the base to the United Arab Emirates in 1992, and the US was given access to the facility after the 9/11 terror attacks. 

*This is the third time Pakistan has asked the US to vacate Shamsi airbase. Similar demands were made after CIA contractor Raymond Davis gunned down two men in Lahore in January and after the US military raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May. 
*
The Express Tribune quoted a US government source as saying that the Americans had spent months preparing for a possible eviction from Shamsi by building up other drone launching and staging capabilities.

US starts vacating Shamsi airbase in Pakistan - The Times of India


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## Skywalker

Chrome Missiles said:


> Pakistan closing supply routes does not come as a surprise to many.
> 
> Fact :USA does not use Pakistani supply routes to transport high-value/ lethal / high priority equipment. Toilet papers ? Yes. Beyond that , no.
> 
> Fact : NATO supply trucks occasionally do get ambushed in Pakistact : Pakistan is the life support for most, if not all, terror entities.



Usual  from yankees


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## pakdefender

Chrome Missiles said:


> Pakistan closing supply routes does not come as a surprise to many.
> 
> Fact :USA does not use Pakistani supply routes to transport high-value/ lethal / high priority equipment. Toilet papers ? Yes. Beyond that , no.
> 
> Fact : NATO supply trucks occasionally do get ambushed in Pakistan.
> 
> Fact : Pakistan is the life support for most, if not all, terror entities.



Who the **** are YOU SOBS to label others as terrorists!!!! you RAT! 

Fact : Americans are murderers and liers 

Fact : Americans are thieves , the whole country was stolen from Native Americans

Fact : America is responsible for millions of deaths around the world

Fact : You are being kicked out of Pakistan 

GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRY!!!!

and No , most of your supplies go through Pakistan , the northern route is longer is goes through Russia , it goes over rail , it goes over sea( the Caspian sea ) and on land route also .. You can go take that route and I hope the Russians do payback for what America did to it when they were in Afghanistan

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## monitor

*A deliberate and planned attack*
Posted on December 3, 2011 
By Mohammad Jamil

As the nation is mourning the death of its brave sons in last weeks Nato attack on a Pakistani border posts, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey has declined to offer an apology stating that he did not know enough about the incident. This was, indeed, naked aggression  plain and simple, deliberate and planned. The posts were set up for the US-led Nato forces inaction to hobble fugitive Pakistani militants, safely ensconced, under their very noses, in Afghanistans Kunar and Nuristan provinces from where they freely planned and launched deadly attacks on our security posts and returned to their bases unchecked. Nato couldnt be unaware of these posts. By going through the statements of USAs civil and military leaders, it is not difficult to conclude that the attack on border posts was not an act in isolation. Since, they have been threatening Pakistan of a unilateral action, if evidence of Al-Qaedas high-profile leaders was available. But there was neither an Al-Qaeda operative, nor smoking gun to justify the attack on the border posts.
Anyhow, Pakistan has lodged a strong protest with the US and closed down supply routes used for the Nato forces in Afghanistan, and also asked Washington to vacate the Shamsi Airbase within a fortnight. Likewise, Pakistan has done well to boycott the Bonn Conference, since the previous meeting in Istanbul was an exercise in futility. Although US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, during her last visit to Islamabad, had asked Pakistan to help bring the Taliban to the negotiating table in a veiled reference to the Bonn Conference, but the problem is that there is a clash of interest between Pakistan and America, and this is the major reason for the trust deficit. Also, going by the propaganda blitz and statements of American think-tanks, members of the Obama administration and US commanders, it is not difficult to reach the conclusion that they want to disgrace Pakistans military and ISI in the publics eye.
Nevertheless, America wants Pakistan to help it win the war in Afghanistan, but all the rewards are bestowed on India in the form of reconstruction constructs and strategic partnership. Of course, it is in the interest of Pakistan that Afghanistan is stable, independent and strong, but the countrys desire to see a government that is not hostile to it is natural and genuine.
DGMO Major General Ishfaq Nadeem in a briefing to the editors and columnists, has termed the strikes on Pakistani posts by Nato and Isaf as unprovoked act of blatant aggression, adding that they were not unintended in which all coordination procedures were violated. The positions of the posts were already conveyed to the Isaf through map references and it was impossible that they did not know these to be our posts, he said, while giving details of the attacks on the border posts. Then referring to the reports of the Afghan media about the shelling of Afghan territory by Pakistani military, he said that they were totally incorrect and baseless. So, Pakistans civil and military leadership has rightly toughened up its act, which is emblematic of a sovereign country, and the measures taken now should have been taken and followed up in execution long time ago.
It is a matter of great satisfaction that all strata of society have expressed their determination to stand by the armed forces to deal with the threats and challenges facing Pakistan. Public protests and rallies are being held throughout the country to express their solidarity with them. Yet, there are some politicians and analysts, who, instead of lauding the efforts of the civil and military leadership to get out of American servility, are trying to denigrate the military and ISI. One of the analysts on a renowned TV channel remarked that Pakistan cannot resist the superpowers pressure, and ultimately will have to do its bidding. Another one tried to create fear in the minds of the people that in the event Pakistan resists and insists on vacating the Shamsi Airbase, and does not allow resumption of supplies to the Nato forces in Afghanistan, America will consider it as an act of war. A few others say that the elected government is doing what the military tells them, just to prove that the civilian and military leaderships are not on the same page and the army is calling the shots.
Former President Pervez Musharraf had buckled under US pressure after 9/11, but it is no divine canon that we have to provide the supply routes for the American and Nato forces in Afghanistan. In fact, we have been stupidly generous in extending this facility, all for free. Even the northern route that Afghanistans US-led Nato occupiers have explored and established as an alternative for their supplies is not for free. They pay for every liable levy. They have been using our routes over the past 10 years without paying even a dime in tax, and the aid they have given is not enough to refurbish the roads they have damaged. What, indeed, have we got for all our sacrifices, except that they have shown us only malice and rancour?
More so, they want to make Pakistan a whipping boy to cover up their own cowardice, spinelessness and acute deficit of fighting spirit that has led up to their debacle in Afghanistan. We have sacrificed 35,000 innocent citizens; and 5,000 brave officers and soldiers have laid down their lives in this spurious US-led war on terror in Afghanistan. We have had enough of it! And we must have no more of it!

The writer is a freelance columnist and a regular contributor


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## W.11

Chrome Missiles said:


> Pakistan closing supply routes does not come as a surprise to many.
> 
> Fact :USA does not use Pakistani supply routes to transport high-value/ lethal / high priority equipment. Toilet papers ? Yes. Beyond that , no.
> 
> Fact : NATO supply trucks occasionally do get ambushed in Pakistan.
> 
> Fact : Pakistan is the life support for most, if not all, terror entities.



so you guys are crying for toilet papers??  i didnt know americans cant survive without toilet papers lol

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Imperial bast--ds ..

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## T90TankGuy

a link would be welcome .

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## salmakh84

Good news.

I HOPE SHAHBAZ BASE is next...

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## Oldman1

pakdefender said:


> Who the **** are YOU SOBS to label others as terrorists!!!! you RAT!
> 
> Fact : Americans are murderers and liers
> 
> Fact : Americans are thieves , the whole country was stolen from Native Americans
> 
> Fact : America is responsible for millions of deaths around the world
> 
> Fact : You are being kicked out of Pakistan
> 
> GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRY!!!!
> 
> and No , most of your supplies go through Pakistan , the northern route is longer is goes through Russia , it goes over rail , it goes over sea( the Caspian sea ) and on land route also .. You can go take that route and I hope the Russians do payback for what America did to it when they were in Afghanistan



Learn more American history before you think Americans are the ones who stole land. I can claim Spain, Portugal, Britain, France, etc. all took the lands in North America. Afterwards we bought it from them.

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## Secur

Chrome Missiles said:


> Pakistan closing supply routes does not come as a surprise to many.
> 
> Fact :USA does not use Pakistani supply routes to transport high-value/ lethal / high priority equipment. Toilet papers ? Yes. Beyond that , no.
> 
> Fact : NATO supply trucks occasionally do get ambushed in Pakistan.
> 
> Fact : Pakistan is the life support for most, if not all, terror entities.



So 40 % of NATO supplies consist of toilet papers ?  and Your troops cant conduct operations without them , thats why they are crying and pleading for co-operation even now ?  Where does the fuel comes from ?  Hyper space tunnel to Kabul probably ? 

The fact is **s**** even Russia is threatening to stop the NDN now so good luck saving your face in Afghanistan ...

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## Oldman1

Secur said:


> So 40 % of NATO supplies consist of toilet papers ?  and Your troops cant conduct operations without them , thats why they are crying and pleading for co-operation even now ?  Where does the fuel comes from ?  Hyper space tunnel to Kabul probably ?
> 
> The fact is **s**** even Russia is threatening to stop the NDN now so good luck saving your face in Afghanistan ...



Kind of reminds me of Hitler and the Uboats. As well as Soviet Union aka Russia that blockaded Berlin. Can you tell me what happened on those events please?


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## mehboobkz




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## Areesh

regular said:


> How U know about the facts....First they vacated the base after Raymond Davis arrest then they vacated the shamsi airbase after OBL raid . Now they vacating after this attack on our posts incident....I'm sure about the same thing happening within the near future too after next attack.....Sir! We don't care what the media sayz cuz they working for $$$ too.....


 
Bhai please give a break to your conspiracy theories. You are over doing it now.

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## Secur

Oldman1 said:


> Kind of reminds me of Hitler and the Uboats. As well as Soviet Union aka Russia that blockaded Berlin. Can you tell me what happened on those events please?


 Only if the two situations were relevant ... The West is thousand of km's away ... Good luck airlifting supplies over Pakistan , Iran , Russia or CAR without permission

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## T90TankGuy

Areesh said:


> Bhai please give a break to your conspiracy theories. You are over doing it now.




thank you for your post.

why is it people need to see the negative in every story ? they seem to find demons everywhere.


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## mehboobkz

Pakistan has been designated as major non-NATO allies of the United States!


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## iPhone

KarachiPunk said:


> im saying that army gave clearance because nato had given coordinates to attack some civilian place inside pakistan, so army said, ok, yhey could attack, they didnt know instead of civlians, nato were attacking the army check post



no, the army didn't say they gave clearence. They said they were contacted and given coordinates by nato/usa of a location, as they were processing the information another set of information came saying two of Pakistani posts have been hit. Pak army never gave the go ahead of attack on any location.


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## Secur

jbgt90 said:


> thank you for your post.
> 
> why is it people need to see the negative in every story ? they seem to find demons everywhere.


 Some people are obsessed with conspiracy theories ... Let them believe whatever they want ...

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## pakdefender

mehboobkz said:


> Pakistan has been designated as major non-NATO allies of the United States!



aur indians ki pushal mein aag lag gai!! haha

NATO/US never gave much thought to 'non-NATO' ally when they did a deliberate attack on our posts causing death and injury.

what goes around comes around and you stupid indians can go climb a pole


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## salvage

Shamsi should be converted into a museum....a stark reminder of its bloody past.


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## khalidwaleed

what ever you people say, US is a "Greater Dodder" or a "ring worm" it will not go like that, that sh!t will go on itching and cannot not be completely cured once an area is infected.


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## Secur

mehboobkz said:


> Pakistan has been designated as major non-NATO allies of the United States!


 
A correction !

Pakistan had been designated as a major non-NATO ally of the USA ...


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## Areesh

jbgt90 said:


> thank you for your post.
> 
> why is it people need to see the negative in every story ? they seem to find demons everywhere.


 
For some people everything is a conspiracy.

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## RazPaK

Let's kindly have PIA escort them back to North America instead...


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## khalidwaleed

Chrome Missiles said:


> Pakistan closing supply routes does not come as a surprise to many.
> 
> Fact :USA does not use Pakistani supply routes to transport high-value/ lethal / high priority equipment. Toilet papers ? Yes. Beyond that , no.
> 
> Fact : NATO supply trucks occasionally do get ambushed in Pakistan.
> 
> Fact : Pakistan is the life support for most, if not all, terror entities.





ouch... that was cruel, this is what you get in the end from your faithful ally.

best thing to do now is ,kill some US soldiers in Pakistan and just say that , was an accident. thatz all.


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## RazPaK

Pakistan should have never cheated on China with America. Now this crazy ***** won't leave us alone.


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## Mercenary

No one really knows what happens...too many he said, she said and contradictions....all of this needs to be clarified in a joint NATO-Pakistan report

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## mehboobkz

http://zeenews.**********/news/world/iran-military-shoots-down-us-drone-state-tv_745360.html


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## SQ8

Obama Apologizes to Pakistani president..

Time for the diplomatic team to look for the next flight to Bonn.


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## Safriz

Santro said:


> Obama Apologizes to Pakistani president..
> 
> Time for the diplomatic team to look for the next flight to Bonn.


 
oh no...........

---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------

any links?


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## sachin@india

One question : How could PA gives clearance to NATO to hit inside Pakistani area ? The question of wrong or right co ordinates is secondary. Isn't that the violation of sovereignty of Pakistan


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## Emmie

sachin@india said:


> One question : How could PA gives clearance to NATO to hit inside Pakistani area ? The question of wrong or right co ordinates is secondary. Isn't that the violation of sovereignty of Pakistan



And then you blame PA for breeding terrorism... Comeon where do you guys stand?


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## Safriz

@santro.......no news on the internet...when did obama apogize?

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------




Emmie said:


> And then you blame PA for breeding terrorism... Comeon where do you guys stand?


 
they keep changing the goal post.


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## Emmie

safriz said:


> @santro.......no news on the internet...when did obama apogize?



He called Zardari, news just broke on Pak media. He expressed his condolences over Nato attack.


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## Safriz

condolences is not apology.....somebody needs to learn ingraizee.

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## SQ8

safriz said:


> @santro.......no news on the internet...when did obama apogize?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> they keep changing the goal post.



On GEO news.. Obama calls up Zardari.


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## sachin@india

Emmie said:


> And then you blame PA for breeding terrorism... Comeon where do you guys stand?



How does it related to PA and terrorism in the context of this attack ? The question remains how PA can give clearance to NATO to attack inside pakistani border ?

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## Emmie

*Nato attack 'not deliberate', Obama tells Zardari*

WASHINGTON: US president Barrack Obama has telephoned President Asif Ali Zardari and expressed sorrow on the martyrdom of Pakistani soldiers in Nato air strike but maintained the attack was 'not deliberate', Geo News reported.

According to the White House, Barrack Obama told President Zardari that US was committed to full investigation into Pakistani soldiers deaths. 

Obama phones Zardari; condoles soldiers death

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## Safriz

Santro said:


> On GEO news.. Obama calls up Zardari.


 
yes...that was for condolences...not a formal apology.

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## Emmie

sachin@india said:


> How does it related to PA and terrorism in the context of this attack ? The question remains how PA can give clearance to NATO to attack inside pakistani border ?



It wasn't that difficult for you to glean something from my post.. You know what I said and I know what you are implying.

One line - Pakistan army did not give any clearance to Nato for that attack. I have no issue with you if you believe western fabrication and reject Pakistani stance on it.


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## VelocuR

nuclearpak said:


> You don't just jam radars by a press of a button.
> 
> A big big misconception people have, after the OBL episode and now again.



If you have any knowledge, please kindly explain in full details of how it worked. 





> As we saw earlier, *the helicopter is specifically designed to fly low to the ground, hiding behind cover whenever possible.** The Apache is also designed to evade enemy radar scanning.* If the pilots pick up radar signals with the onboard scanner, *they can activate a radar jammer to confuse the enemy.*
> 
> *The Apache is also designed to evade heat-seeking missiles by reducing its infrared signature (the heat energy it releases). The Black Hole infrared suppression system dissipates the heat of the engine exhaust by mixing it with air flowing around the helicopter. The cooled exhaust then passes through a special filter, which absorbs more heat. The Longbow also has an infrared jammer, which generates infrared energy of varying frequencies to confuse heat-seeking missiles.*
> 
> The Apache is heavily armored on all sides. Some areas are also surrounded by Kevlar soft armor for extra protection. The cockpit is protected by layers of reinforced armor and bulletproof glass. According to Boeing, every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds, and vital engine and rotor components can withstand 23-mm fire.





> A modern helicopter will often be equipped with a radar warning receiver, laser warning receiver, UV or
> IR missile approach warning system, a defensive jammer to degrade radar guided SAMs and AAA, and increasingly, undirected or *directed infrared jammers to defeat MANPADS*.
> Source

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## Irfan Baloch

safriz said:


> @santro.......no news on the internet...when did obama apogize?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> they keep changing the goal post.





apology or condolence or concern or sorrow and deeply moved all such expressions mean nothing
its the actions that matter. this attack was not the first one and wont be the last one either.

PPP Govt. is panicking and looking for straws now and Americans wont mind providing it because when they feel like they will follow up with another attack

lets not waste our time to report or debate American condolence or sorrow. Whoever will call Zardari from American side he will be begging for his own life and his money nothing else matters.
Just wait and see how this Government will drop its pants and give reason to the world to laugh at us.

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## Emmie

^^^ If that happens then You don't have any right to say anything on Afghan related issues, you'll be joke..


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## Stealth

*What a joke Obama fone to Zardari just to join BONN conference nothing else more THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN AND ARMY AGAINST BON Conference ja jo pathna hey patlay wesa b America ke jo kutay wali kardi hey sare dunya daek rahe hey! yehi okaat hey is SUP*


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## regular

Areesh said:


> Bhai please give a break to your conspiracy theories. You are over doing it now.


Harr
Bhai mein kya karroon dil khoon keh Ansoon roo Raha Hah.... Everytime we/Awaam/public get decieved sometimes by the US/NATO and sometimes by our sell out traitorz....I wish and pray for everybody to come on right path to save humanity, cuz war is distruction of everything. Loss for everybody on earth. God/Allah SBWT don't like wars in which innocent humans gets killed.....I'm sorry if I hurts ure feelingz....


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## regular

Areesh said:


> For some people everything is a conspiracy.


Sir! There are some eye witnesses in those some pplz saying or disclosing the conspiracies....This is not just illusion,deep down there is a hidden truth......


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## regular

Secur said:


> A correction !
> 
> Pakistan had been designated as a major non-NATO ally of the USA ...


Sir! not an ally but a major Sweeper Ally or most probably a Boot Polish Ally/Servant ...nothing more than that......


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## American Pakistani

MUST WATCH VIDEO.


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## Desert Fox

American Pakistani said:


> MUST WATCH VIDEO.



Since when did RT use Arabic speaking journalists??? Doesn't make sense, but oh well!


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## 5ever

khalidwaleed said:


> ouch... that was cruel, this is what you get in the end from your faithful ally.
> 
> best thing to do now is ,kill some US soldiers in Pakistan and just say that , was an accident. thatz all.


 
Any attacks on Americans will be Pakistan's biggest mistake ever. They can decimate the war fighting capability of any military on the planet, (yes that includes the Indian/Russian/Chinese).

You guys seriously underestimate the awesome power of the American military. I got to see a little bit of it during Talisman Sabre 11 over here in Aus, my uncle was in the IA and he was truly impressed by my recount.

Picking a fight with the Americans is the worst idea ever. There is no organised military in the world that can stand up to them.


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## regular

Irfan Baloch said:


> apology or condolence or concern or sorrow and deeply moved all such expressions mean nothing
> its the actions that matter. this attack was not the first one and wont be the last one either.
> 
> PPP Govt. is panicking and looking for straws now and Americans wont mind providing it because when they feel like they will follow up with another attack
> 
> lets not waste our time to report or debate American condolence or sorrow. Whoever will call Zardari from American side he will be begging for his own life and his money nothing else matters.
> Just wait and see how this Government will drop its pants and give reason to the world to laugh at us.


Yes! exactly that is the case. Who sufferz??? ... our poor innocent ppl soldierz & officerz by giving their lives for nothing....


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## American Pakistani

Desert Fox said:


> Since when did RT use Arabic speaking journalists??? Doesn't make sense, but oh well!



Aray bhai aap ko aap khanay say matlab hai ya ghutliyaan ginnay say.

Concentrate on the debate in the video not the language please.


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## Safriz

Desert Fox said:


> Since when did RT use Arabic speaking journalists??? Doesn't make sense, but oh well!



Never watched RT? Did you? 

They use all sorts of anchors and reporters,there are some Pakistani / Indian looking anchors on their channel.


----------



## American Pakistani

*Obama Offers &#8216;Condolences&#8217; in Deaths of Pakistani Troops*

By JOHN H. CUSHMAN Jr.

Published: December 4, 2011 

WASHINGTON &#8212; President Obama phoned the president of Pakistan on Sunday to offer &#8220;condolences&#8221; for the deaths of two dozen soldiers who were killed in NATO airstrikes along the Afghan border, the White House said. 

The conversation, eight days after the incident, overcame the reservations of some officials in the Defense Department and favored an approach suggested by diplomats who had urged a more conciliatory gesture. But the president&#8217;s comments stopped short of a formal apology or videotaped statement to ease the public anger in Pakistan. 

&#8220;Earlier today, the president placed a phone call to Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari to personally express his condolences on the tragic loss of 24 Pakistani soldiers this past week along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan,&#8221; the White House said in a statement issued by its press office. 

&#8220;The president made clear that this regrettable incident was not a deliberate attack on Pakistan and reiterated the United States&#8217; strong commitment to a full investigation,&#8221; the statement said. &#8220;The two presidents reaffirmed their commitment to the U.S.-Pakistan bilateral relationship, which is critical to the security of both nations, and they agreed to stay in close touch.&#8221; 

Senior officials, including Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, had already issued expressions of remorse and the United States, conceding that its forces were involved, had promised a full investigation. Pakistani and American accounts of what happened have diverged widely, and there has been no full explanation from either side. 

The strikes on the two Pakistani outposts came during a tightly planned operation by Afghan and American Special Forces against a Taliban training camp in a remote and mountainous border area. 

American officials have said that during the skirmish both sides thought they were under attack by the Taliban. But efforts to sort out precisely what happened &#8212; and in the process ease the latest crisis to strain the tenuous alliance between the United States and Pakistan &#8212; are being hindered by Pakistan&#8217;s refusal to cooperate with the American-led military investigation into the attack, the officials said. 

Even the most basic facts are in dispute. The Americans say they were fired on first and cleared the strikes with the Pakistanis. The Pakistanis say that NATO gave the wrong coordinates for the proposed airstrikes and that their forces fired only after the attacks began. 

Previous cross-border strikes were investigated jointly and the fallout quickly contained, like the dispute that followed the American helicopter attacks on Pakistani forces in September 2010. But a year of crises that began with an American contractor shooting two Pakistanis to death on a street in Lahore and included the Navy Seal raid northwest of Islamabad that killed Osama bin Laden, now risks ending with the breach of an alliance that has been the cornerstone of American national security policy for the past decade, American officials and analysts have said. 

Pakistan has responded to last week&#8217;s attack by blocking all NATO logistical supplies from crossing into Afghanistan, telling the Central Intelligence Agency to vacate an air base where drone strikes are launched, and boycotting an international conference on Afghanistan next week in Bonn, Germany. 

Some administration aides had worried that if Mr. Obama were to apologize formally to Pakistan, the move could become fodder for his Republican opponents in the presidential campaign.


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## Safriz

I wish Pakistan could do this.
Iran threatens retaliation after drone shot down - Telegraph


PDF thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/144802-us-stealth-uav-rq-170-downed-iran.html

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## President Camacho

Irfan Baloch said:


> apology or condolence or concern or sorrow and deeply moved all such expressions mean nothing
> its the actions that matter. this attack was not the first one and wont be the last one either.
> 
> *PPP Govt. is panicking and looking for straws now and Americans wont mind providing it because when they feel like they will follow up with another attack
> *
> lets not waste our time to report or debate American condolence or sorrow. Whoever will call Zardari from American side he will be begging for his own life and his money nothing else matters.
> Just wait and see how this Government will drop its pants and give reason to the world to laugh at us.



I feel it is rather the Pakistan Army whose stand has been weakened. Those who died were army soldiers. Multiple statements showcasing the rage were quickly issued by the ISPR. The confusion related to coordinates was addressed by the Army. Pakistan's involvement in WoT relates to its Army's engagement, more than civilian government's.

The civilian government's silence on the matter is a display of wait and watch policy. 

So you see, it is the Army that is scrambling to find a stand that shall be congruent with the public sentiments.

Otherwise, for so many years, the TTP, housed and headquartered in those tribal areas has killed many more and senior Pakistan Army members, but the Army did not make such strong statements or any aggressive moves in those areas to crush the terrorists, until the last few months - for years it depended solely on the drones flown by foreigners. Out of all the 5,000 or so soldiers who died in the WoT, how many were killed by friendly fires, and how many by terrorists in those areas? Ultimately, tribal areas are also Pakistan's own areas, right? 

So why reserve the rage to be finally directed at the lesser, enemy? - Because it's the popular enemy.

The thing is, in view of the outrage against the US (for whatever reasons) prevalent among the general populace (and I can bet a million dollars, it is also present among a great chunk of Army officers), the Army is forced to direct its anger toward the US. Rightly or wrongly, we all know.

Now the question is, will the Army be able to complete this tightrope walk between its pro-US policy and anti-US sentiments?

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## Mercenary

safriz said:


> I wish Pakistan could do this.
> Iran threatens retaliation after drone shot down - Telegraph
> 
> 
> PDF thread
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/144802-us-stealth-uav-rq-170-downed-iran.html



A nonsense story.

Iran always claim such stories whenever there is internal upheavel.

This is a fake story designed to deflect from the damage that Iran inflicted upon itself by attacking the British embassy

---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------




American Pakistani said:


> MUST WATCH VIDEO.



Hamid Gul is nothing more than a conspiracy nut.

Basically, a Pakistani Glenn Beck

---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------




safriz said:


> Never watched RT? Did you?
> 
> They use all sorts of anchors and reporters,there are some Pakistani / Indian looking anchors on their channel.



RT is basically the mouth piece of Russia. It is designed to give a Russian point of view in English.

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## 53fd

President Camacho said:


> I feel it is rather the Pakistan Army whose stand has been weakened.



I feel as if you want the Pakistan Army's stand to weakened, but no, it has not been weakened. The supply routes are closed, & will continue to remain closed. The Shamsi airbase is being vacated right now.



> Those who died were army soldiers. Multiple statements showcasing the rage were quickly issued by the ISPR.



The ISPR's account has remained entirely consistent. 



> So you see, it is the Army that is scrambling to find a stand that shall be congruent with the public sentiments.



I think the Army has made it pretty clear where it stands, & the public sentiments correspond with that. 



> Otherwise, for so many years, the TTP, housed and headquartered in those tribal areas has killed many more and senior Pakistan Army members, but the Army did not make such strong statements or any aggressive moves in those areas to crush the terrorists, until the last few months - for years it depended solely on the drones flown by foreigners.



The ISI has worked very hard to create splits within the TTP for many years, & has succeeded in doing so. You don't need the Army making the noises when the ISI is doing its work quietly & effectively. The armed confrontation with the TTP is small in significance as compared to the work done by the intelligence agency in causing divide inside the groups, & turning them & killing each other.



> So why reserve the rage to be finally directed at the lesser, enemy? - Because it's the popular enemy.



As violence is diminishing, & the militants are being rooted out, it is becoming increasingly evident who the bigger enemy is.



> Now the question is, will the Army be able to complete this tightrope walk between its pro-US policy and anti-US sentiments?



There is no pro-US policy in the Army, the Army does things in the national interests of Pakistan. I think you try to analyze things too deeply & try to find meanings in things that don't really have any.

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## American Pakistani

McCain for linking Pak aid to cooperation 
McCain for linking Pak aid to cooperation

lol, he seems a funny old man. Americans still haven't realise Pakistanis hates aids. Please someone tell these American govt officials to stop aid, what is stopping them??


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## Mercenary

5ever said:


> Any attacks on Americans will be Pakistan's biggest mistake ever. They can decimate the war fighting capability of any military on the planet, (yes that includes the Indian/Russian/Chinese).
> 
> You guys seriously underestimate the awesome power of the American military. I got to see a little bit of it during Talisman Sabre 11 over here in Aus, my uncle was in the IA and he was truly impressed by my recount.
> 
> Picking a fight with the Americans is the worst idea ever. There is no organised military in the world that can stand up to them.



True.

Pakistan vs USA War would resemble the first gulf war when Saddam's Army was decimated in 100 hours.

We are fully capable of engaging the Indians in a Land War, but USA is a totally different story.

However, if we wage a Guerrilla War, that's a different story.

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## 53fd

Mercenary said:


> Hamid Gul is nothing more than a conspiracy nut.
> 
> Basically, a Pakistani Glenn Beck



I didn't know Glenn Beck was the CIA chief during the Afghan-Soviet war that the Soviet Union lost.


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## regular

A very smart and cunning move by the US to fool and trap Pakistan again.......


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## karan.1970

Irfan Baloch said:


> if you have seen the video and audio conversation of 2 American A-10 pilots that engaged a British column in Iraq, they did ask if there were any friendly units in the area and then they started the attack after getting the negative, despite the fact that British firing distress flares and clear NATO/ British markings on their vehicles (same as the Pakistani flag over the post) the giggles of the pilots over the injured crumbing over and falling from burning vehicles is changed in to cries and sobbing when the operator tells them that they hit a British convey.
> 
> 
> So here either the Americans knowingly or by mistake gave wrong coordinates, got the negative answer from Pakistani HQ and then gave the go ahead to their pilots to attack. But I dont know how clear were they in their questions about any Pakistani check posts, also any Pakistani troops within 3 or 4 KM of their requested area would have been communicated to them as part of procedure so there is a chance that Americans would have asked about something too far away that the answer from Pakistani HQ had to be a no that they had nothing there in that area.
> 
> 
> 
> Despite all this what is troubling is
> 
> They continued to attack when they received the blue on blue and ceasefire requests.
> They, then returned and attacked both posts and levelled them to the ground.
> 
> This only points towards disregard towards ceasefire requests and a a premeditated attack with full knowledge of who actually were their target.
> 
> 
> Should the American pilots have clarified with their HQ that the suspected locations appear to be well dug in positions that appear to be established posts with a flag and communication antennas and aerials? (not a characteristic of terrorists and that too on a hilltop with no civilian population nearby). Maybe not if they had the same average intellect & attitude of the pilots over Baghdad who decided that the Associated press reporter was a terrorist and his video camera a rocket launcher and on that bases they killed him all other civilains around him and then celebrated the death of the children in a van by saying wow look one went right through the windshield haha, now Julian Assuage faces a possible death penalty (over espionage ) if he is extradited to America due to leaking videos like these.
> 
> No wonder Pakistan army refused to be part of their investigation farce because of the past experiences and deliberately dragging the date to end of December so that the story dies down and they can mount the pressure again with the usual premix of Haqqani support allegations and end it with do more bickering. Maybe such actions will help in showing the democrats as tough guys for the up coming elections against the Republicans but this attitude is hardly going to help in their plan to exit from Afghanistan in next 2 years time



Quick question.. In the above case of American pilots accidently attacking British soldiers, did the British soldiers fire back.. Because in a blue on blue friendly fire incident, when the attacked blue hits back, it's a little too optimistic to expect the other guy to stop.. But again, lets see what 23rd December brings..

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## iPhone

truly the height of arrogance shown by obama calling eight days later. that too only due to Pak's strong stance on not attending the bonn conference and stopping supplies. It's becommin evident the US needs Pak's presence badly in this conference.

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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> Quick question.. In the above case of American pilots accidently attacking British soldiers, did the British soldiers fire back.. Because in a blue on blue friendly fire incident, when the attacked blue hits back, it's a little too optimistic to expect the other guy to stop.. But again, lets see what 23rd December brings..



In case of the British attack the A-10s attacked in broad daylight, thus ground forces could easily identify it was their own jet which is attacking them, thus no need to fire back. 

And our case is different, we have been attacked before also many times, with no successful outcome of any investigation. 

And first attack can be termed mistake, but the second one with full might even when situation had been clearly communicated is hard to understand.

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## iPhone

President Camacho said:


> Otherwise, for so many years, the TTP, housed and headquartered in those tribal areas has killed many more and senior Pakistan Army members, but the Army did not make such strong statements or any aggressive moves in those areas to crush the terrorists, until the last few months -



it's one thing to be killed by your enemy, it's totally another to be killed by your ally. And not at one occassion but at multiple occassions, this being the most brutal one.

Regardless of what you think that Pak army's position is becoming weaker, there are reports emerging from the western media highlighting us/nato's complicit or irrisponsible role in this strike.

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## President Camacho

bilalhaider said:


> I feel as if you want the Pakistan Army's stand to weakened, but no, it has not been weakened. The supply routes are closed, & will continue to remain closed. The Shamsi airbase is being vacated right now.





Man, if someone had a gun to your head and said: "You gotta tell me what's goin' on with that person across the street, there, what they think, who they are, how they feel, or I will kill you"... they'd have to kill you...wouldn't they...? 'Cause you don't have a clue about anyone. ...I don't think you, you have a clue, period. 

Crux: You do not know what I want. What I desire. Where I come from. What are my feelings. 



bilalhaider said:


> There is no pro-US policy in the Army, the Army does things in the national interests of Pakistan. I think you try to analyze things too deeply & try to find meanings in things that don't really have any.



National interests of Pakistan, and pro-US policy of PA have often walked together, hand in hand. I am not analyzing anything here. I am offering my point of view, based on certain facts that I clearly mentioned in my post. Feel free to take it, feel free to discard it.

Rest of your post is completely out of scope because you ended up defending a stand that I did not even mention.

_When in a debate, please try not to get personal in your approach._

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## 53fd

President Camacho said:


> Crux: You do not know what I want. What I desire. Where I come from. What are my feelings.



Fine, I was giving my opinion as well. No need to get sentimental about it. I have never stopped anyone from expressing their views. 



> National interests of Pakistan, and pro-US policy of PA have often walked together, hand in hand. I am not analyzing anything here. I am offering my point of view, based on certain facts that I clearly mentioned in my post.



What do you mean "pro-US policy of the PA"? You tell the Americans this, & they'd think otherwise. National interests of Pakistan are national interests of Pakistan. Period. Sometimes they were in collusion with pro-US policy, sometimes they weren't. The Army had a pro-US policy on things that corresponded to Pakistan national interests, & did not do things that did not correspond to Pakistan's national interests (operation in North Waziristan). Now it's becoming increasingly clear with the passing day that a pro-US policy will be detrimental to Pakistan & its national interests. 



> Rest of your post is completely out of scope because you ended up defending a stand that I did not even mention.



I'm not getting personal, I'm just saying your opinions have no basis to them, & you are trying to find meanings in things that don't have any.


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## Irfan Baloch

karan.1970 said:


> Quick question.. In the above case of American pilots accidently attacking British soldiers, did the British soldiers fire back.. Because in a blue on blue friendly fire incident, when the attacked blue hits back, it's a little too optimistic to expect the other guy to stop.. But again, lets see what 23rd December brings..




Quick Answer
No they didn&#8217;t, the A-10s made 2 Strafe runs and there was nothing left of the British Armour column to respond with except a distress flair in the first pass.

The only difference is that the pilots didn&#8217;t decide to return back to finish the job once they were communicated about their blunder. 

Same was the case with the Canadian soldiers that were blown to bits by the Americans in Afghanistan and the grieving commander couldn&#8217;t help but say that it looked like the American pilot was influenced by Topgun movie. The Canadians too didn&#8217;t fire back.

So I understand your point you are trying to make, don&#8217;t fire back at Americans when they don&#8217;t understand and cant decide if you are friend, Ally or enemy because the fate is going to be the same regardless. So Pakistanis should have accepted their fate after communicating the attack to the Americans.

I don&#8217;t know if someone who is being pounded has the luxury like you to ponder over the optimism of surviving if the culprit is not heeding the ceasefire calls.

As far as 23 December surprise is concerned, it wont be any different from their last investigation farces so we are not banking on anything we don&#8217;t already know.

Thanks but no thanks

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## President Camacho

iPhone said:


> it's one thing to be killed by your enemy, it's totally another thing to be killed by your ally. And not at one occassion but at multiple occassions, this being the most brutal one.
> 
> Regardless of what you think that Pak army's position is becoming weaker, there are reports emerging from the western media highlighting us/nato's complicit or irrisponsible role in this strike.



See iPhone, I have not ever talked about whether NATO attack was a deliberate action, or just a mistake.

I am trying to put forth a point that does not go along with the sentiments of the majority in here. 

Having cleared that, I want you to consider this: In what war, have there not been casualties resulting from friendly fires?

The NATO may be complicit, may be incompetent, irresponsible, or anything you say. But tell me honestly, have we seen the Army taking actions of similar magnitude against the terrorists, apart from relying mostly on drone attacks?

The Taliban regime was not brought down by drones, or incessant bombings. The Taliban regime fell flat right after the fuel supply to Afghanistan was blocked from Pakistani side. 

Pakistan is making exactly the same move against NATO forces. It has not only blocked the NATO supplies, but has also blocked the commercial fuel supply to Afghanistan, lest the NATO shall buy any fuel from within Afghanistan.

Such ingenious, and courageous actions on part of the Army were not to be seen throughout the years of WoT. 

Who do you think needed continuous supply of fuel and fertilizers in the FATA area more, the general public living on bare necessities, or the full-tank Prado driving extremist Mullahs and their fertilizer laden buildings housed with their bomb engineers?

I am just making a comparison here ya know, between the actions of the Army against enemies of Pakistan in the past, and actions of the Army against the enemies of Pakistan at present. 

The seriousness shown by the Army at this hour, was nowhere to be seen in the past when the toll was much, much higher.

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## DADU

lol kayanis Cigars Dried UP ????

Pakistanis burn American flags while America burns the country of Pakistan.

Peace


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> In case of the British attack the A-10s attacked in broad daylight, thus ground forces could easily identify it was their own jet which is attacking them, thus no need to fire back.
> 
> And our case is different, we have been attacked before also many times, with no successful outcome of any investigation.
> 
> And first attack can be termed mistake, but the second one with full might even when situation had been clearly communicated is hard to understand.



May be the second attack was a result of Pakistani retaliation. Since in most truly blue on blue incidents, the receiver of friendly fire doesnt hit back..

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## 53fd

Some facts about the TTP Taliban, & why they split up (most of it had to do with the work of the ISI in creating splits & divisions between the TTP, & very little had to do with drones. After the excellent work done by the ISI, it's become 'easy pickings' for the Army, which is why they haven't had to hit as 'hard' as they can & are capable of):

The drone strikes have taken place mostly in North Waziristan & South Waziristan. Mullah Nazir of the TTP was in South Waziristan, the Hafiz Gul Bahadur group of the TTP in North Waziristan, the Mehsud group of the TTP in North Waziristan (& also some in South Waziristan & Orakzai Agency), & the Haqqani group in North Waziristan & Kurram Agency. Mullah Nazir & Hafiz Gul Bahadur split from the Mehsud group TTP. The Mehsud group in North Waziristan was the only main threat to the Pakistan Army. In other words, the only drone strike that helped Pakistan was the one that killed Baitullah Mehsud. 

However, the biggest threat to Pakistan came from the Malakand, Mohmand, Bajaur, Dir (corresponding to the Kunar & Nuristan provinces of Afghanistan). Mullah Fazlullah (working in collusion with the dead Sufi Mohammad of the TSNM) has his strongholds in Kunar after being driven out by the Pakistan Army after being driven out of the Swat & Malakand regions of Pakistan. Qari Zia Rehman was a threat to Pakistan's Bajaur region, & it is not clear whether he got killed by the Pakistan Army, or by something else. Maulvi Faqir Muhammad & Omar Khalid were a threat to the Mohmand region of Pakistan. Notice that none of these regions have drone strikes going on, & it is the efforts of the Pakistan Army that has resulted in the weakening of the TTP. Even more than the Pakistan Army, it is the efforts of the ISI that have caused splits & divides in the TTP. As the territory held by terrorists diminishes, there are clashes & conflicts between various terrorist groups (a few days ago, between the Afridi Taliban group & the Lashkr-e-Islam Mangal Bagh group in the Tirah Valley, Khyber Agency).

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## Irfan Baloch

@Bilalhaider and @President Camacho

ceasefire please 
I understand both of you and thanked for different reasons 


yes PA's image is on the line here but the PPP leadership has other worries , they cant wait and see, far from it they are the ones that cant wait to apologise to the Americans for the fuss PA is making after these deaths. these are the same political leadership who broke the banks in Sindh to save their wealth and let the helpless peasants and their property drown, what does the life of 2 dozen soldiers mean to them? most of their wealth is in the West and they will dread the day when Americans might freeze it if Pakistan crosses its line.

indeed there is a lot of foreplay for public consumption and sentiments and there is also an element of looking after the morale of its own forces that have been yet again attacked by the ally.
dont know if you read a story of one of the soldiers who was so proud to have been fighting the taliban and be part of this WoT as the fate has it, he was slain by the very ally he was supposed to be helping. (go to Dawn website).

its too natural that for some incidents the reaction is many fold than others and we are not an exception. just think what story will make headlines in America? a white man killing another white man or an Asian or African Muslim killing a white man in teh street who turns out to be a tea party activist and a priest too?

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## karan.1970

Irfan Baloch said:


> Quick Answer
> So I understand your point you are trying to make, don&#8217;t fire back at Americans when they don&#8217;t understand and cant decide if you are friend, Ally or enemy because the fate is going to be the same regardless. So Pakistanis should have accepted their fate after communicating the attack to the Americans.
> 
> I don&#8217;t know if someone who is being pounded has the luxury like you to ponder over the optimism of surviving if the culprit is not heeding the ceasefire calls.
> 
> As far as 23 December surprise is concerned, it wont be any different from their last investigation farces so we are not banking on anything we don&#8217;t already know.
> 
> Thanks but no thanks



All I am saying is that a lot of Pakistani members are making a point about why didnt the Americans didnt stop attacking despite being told by Pak command that its a blue on blue engagement. However, once Pakistanis started attacking back (not saying they didnt have a right to) that communication from Pak command lost its significance. any and every ROE allows to fire back in self defence, and once American chopper saw tracers coming back at him, the shouts of blue on blue pretty much went out of the proverbial window..Am sure something of this effect will come out in the report on 23rd

Another quick question.. A lot of Pakistani members here have a broken heart of being hit by an ally.. But truly, is America considered an ally.. To help you answer that, tell me if the attack was from a PAF plane that accidently starfed the post (though a low probability of doing that) or a plane with Chinese markings, would the Pakistani soldiers have fired back.. ??

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## unicorn

*Other side of Salala*


The process of annihilating the &#8216;Volcano&#8217; and the &#8216;Boulder&#8217; posts at Salala by Nato/US troops began on November 25. Just before the midnight hour, a formation of aircrafts &#8212; four high speed (fighters), three to four medium-level, slow-speed drones and three helicopters &#8212; appeared on Pakistani radars. They drifted slowly towards the east. Aircraft fly routinely on the Pakistan-Afghan border, some as close as only a kilometre away only from the border; almost always, the mission is to support anti-Taliban operations. Such a composition of an aerial force, however, is unusual and is categorised as &#8216;intense activity&#8217;. Intense activity gets reported right up the chain, as it was in this case. In parallel, the information, both in video link, as indeed in telephonic coordination, is shared with the Pakistan Army&#8217;s Air Defence Command Post. Both sides, the air force and the army, observed closely as this package drifted ever closer to the border.

It is usual, again, for Nato/US and Pakistan, to share information around a robust and well-tried- mechanism on all missions that take place in the vicinity of the border. This information invariably gets transmitted a day in advance and always before an operation gets underway. Aerial activity, at a distance less than three kilometres from the border, is always cleared with the other side. The border&#8217;s sanctity, in all such cases, is invariably respected. That night though, as the aircraft package drifted closer, both for its constitution and for its likely intent to cross the three kilometres threshold, the local US-Pakistan Tactical Monitoring Cell (TMC) was approached through the usual channels and an explanation sought on the developing aerial picture. The TMC confirmed an anti-Taliban ground operation in progress for which the air support was intended.

Two caveats are important: while US and Pakistan have such a manned coordination of information mechanism at the tactical level, there isn&#8217;t one between the air force and the army where information sharing and threat assessment are instituted concurrently as the situation evolves &#8212; the existing contacts remain at the leadership level and are activated mostly when a headquarters and, therefore, a commander, has reasonably assured information himself. It may be a sad reflection, but true, that most coordination for a tactical situation of the kind that Pakistan experiences today in its war against terror is kicked in as a consequence of television reports which are usually more pervasive and efficient. And two, no prior information had been shared with either the army or the air force about this night&#8217;s mission by Nato/US; unknown to either that both were in the dark and without notification.

Coordination between Nato/US and Pakistani forces also exists in the shape of Regional Command Tactical Centres created on the Afghan side, adjacent to, and along the border. That night, as reported in various versions of US media reports, a ground operation was indeed underway by the Nato/ANA forces against the Taliban, in the vicinity of the two Pakistani posts on the border; Pakistan was neither aware, nor informed of such an operation. Why, remains a hanging and a loaded question. As has been stated, this was an ANA led operation where Nato/US was in assistance. Was the ANA not bound by the coordination mechanisms in place? Or was ANA leadership in the operation used as a convenient subterfuge to avoid intimation as per agreements? Both issues will need to be answered at some stage.

Both posts were more mere encampments and had come into place, after September 2011, after the successful completion of anti-militant operations in Mohmand. These were intended to augment monitoring and control against increasing incidence of cross-border raids by factions of Taliban from the Afghan territories. These were posited on a ridge between the more regular ones in the north and the south; it was generally understood that in the course of many briefings that both sides mutually shared, the information and institution of these new posts was known to Nato/US. Was this a costly assumption? Or, did a more heinous intent override any rationality, including possessed information? The Nato/US tactical centre in Afghanistan across these posts also has a Pakistani presence. The Pakistani major was woken by the American duty official and was informed of two things: one, that the Nato/ANA patrol had met fire and were under attack; and two, he sought from the major, information on any additional Pakistani posts in the area. Unsure of the intent, the major dithered from sharing information unless exact coordinates of the area in question were provided to him. Seven minutes later, the same official returned to inform the major that post &#8216;Volcano&#8217; had been hit.

Two issues emerge: who fired on the Nato/ANA ground patrol and how were they aware of &#8216;Volcano&#8217;? Reportedly, this entire area on either sides of the border is infested with Taliban. So, what is likely is that, indeed, there was an operation in the area unknown to the Pakistanis and that this patrol did come under some fire and was engaged, which pushed them to seek air support. The Pakistani posts are only 200-300 metres from the border, which makes it easily possible for the post to be engaged from within Afghanistan, especially, from the air and for someone on the other side to assume that a fire could have emanated from these posts. Possibilities such as these clouded perceptions and entangled the two sides into a deadly engagement? Or, was it really so, given that no prior intimation was made to the Pakistanis about this operation. On the radars where the aerial activity was being monitored, the Nato/US air package never closed in less than one kilometre from the border. It still gave them comfortable range to engage these posts. There will be questions asked, though, if the helicopters may have slipped below the radar horizon and closed onto the posts for a more venomous attack. Loss of communications on both posts meant a delay in building a tactical picture at all levels of command. As a consequence, other than a rag-tag resistance at the post, no other defensive support could be provided to those under attack.

Why remains the bigger question. Will the fog of war subsume all else that appears as an element of deadly omission and commission that men make when they are in active combat? Emotion makes man what he is, as indeed, the beast that he sometime becomes. Salala was a beastly act and a deadly consequence.

Other side of Salala &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## 53fd

I have already mentioned that it is Kayani that is under the threat of a coup from his fellow Army men, not really the Army. Yes, the Army is expected to 'hit back hard', & that is exactly what it is doing. Both for public consumption & the national interests of Pakistan. Both are important, & the Army has realized that the NATO Forces cannot be treated as a reliable partner on the military co-operation front. So both factors are involved, but it is futile talk to overplay one over the other.

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## Irfan Baloch

karan.1970 said:


> However, once Pakistanis started attacking back (not saying they didnt have a right to) that communication from Pak command lost its significance. any and every ROE allows to fire back in self defence, and once American chopper saw tracers coming back at him, the shouts of blue on blue pretty much went out of the proverbial window..Am sure something of this effect will come out in the report on 23rd
> 
> Another quick question.. A lot of Pakistani members here have a broken heart of being hit by an ally.. But truly, is America considered an ally.. To help you answer that, tell me if the attack was from a PAF plane that accidently starfed the post (though a low probability of doing that) or a plane with Chinese markings, would the Pakistani soldiers have fired back.. ??



haha you are unbelievable, I think Americans should USE your line in the 23rd Dec report. We came back to finsh them off because they made the fatal mistake of firing back at us.

You pretty much killed the discussion

As far as the broken heart is concerned it&#8217;s a disappointment really. If it was you guys we would have understood because we are not allies , if it was the Taliban we would have understood because we are at war with them.

As far as your hypothetical question is concerned, all I can say is that there is next to no chance of that happening because no one can match the American record in this matter.
But for argument sake if the attacker doesn&#8217;t heed your calls just like someone cant identify himself to a sentry at a high security installation he is clear to fire no matter who the intruder is. So to ease you my man, doesn&#8217;t matter if the attacker was Chinese, Saudi, Burmese, Ugandan, Indian or even Pakistani.. If the communication is made to halt the attack and the attacker doesn&#8217;t there are 2 possibilities

1. He is hostile enemy
2. He is a retard like these attackers on 26th

So fight back with whatever you got, you are going down anyway so why not give yourself a chance to go down fighting?



You must forward your lines to CENTCOM man , they will love it.

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## Emmie

karan.1970 said:


> All I am saying is that a lot of Pakistani members are making a point about why didnt the Americans didnt stop attacking despite being told by Pak command that its a blue on blue engagement. However, once Pakistanis started attacking back (not saying they didnt have a right to) that communication from Pak command lost its significance. any and every ROE allows to fire back in self defence, and once American chopper saw tracers coming back at him, the shouts of blue on blue pretty much went out of the proverbial window..Am sure something of this effect will come out in the report on 23rd
> 
> Another quick question.. A lot of Pakistani members here have a broken heart of being hit by an ally.. But truly, is America considered an ally.. To help you answer that, tell me if the attack was from a PAF plane that accidently starfed the post (though a low probability of doing that) or a plane with Chinese markings, would the Pakistani soldiers have fired back.. ??



Goodness gracious me, that was ridiculous... I can't believe a person can be that silly while arguing.. On one hand you say lets wait for the report and on other hand you illustrate and assume things yourself. I must say you are too good at investigations why don't you join CENTCOM's initiative for prob into the incident?

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## iPhone

President Camacho said:


> The Taliban regime was not brought down by drones, or incessant bombings. The Taliban regime fell flat right after the fuel supply to Afghanistan was blocked from Pakistani side.
> 
> Pakistan is making exactly the same move against NATO forces. It has not only blocked the NATO supplies, but has also blocked the commercial fuel supply to Afghanistan, lest the NATO shall buy any fuel from within Afghanistan.
> 
> Such ingenious, and courageous actions on part of the Army were not to be seen throughout the years of WoT.
> 
> 
> I am just making a comparison here ya know, between the actions of the Army against enemies of Pakistan in the past, and actions of the Army against the enemies of Pakistan at present.
> 
> The seriousness shown by the Army at this hour, was nowhere to be seen in the past when the toll was much, much higher.




I dont know what you're talking about but Pakistan army has been fighting the taliban aggressively for years and uped the ante 2 1/2 years ago with the malakand operation. From that point ttp taliban have on the back foot.

That op, followed by the one in S.WA, then orakzai, Dir, Mohmand etc. Mohmand and Dir have been going on even before the Malakand op. The seriousness of Pak army displayed against tacking the taliban can be seen by the huge amount of casualties on Pak's side...

edit: ...and a huge reduction in terror strikes in the country. I mean we literally went from 1 to 2 suicide bombings aday to....... let's leave it at that. It didn't happen over night or by stopping of oil supply for a day. Dont be naive to think that. 

All props to Pak army, the ISI and police and it's special branches for years of their their efforts against terrorists.

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## American Pakistani

*Bonn conference useless without Pakistan: Afghan MP* 
ISLAMABAD: Afghan Parliamentarian Huma Sultani has said that Bonn Conference on Afghanistan&#8217;s future has lost its usefulness without Pakistan&#8217;s participation. 

In an exclusive interview with Online on phone from Kabul, the member of Wolesi Jirga, or Lower House of the parliament from Ghazni province, said that the Bonn Conference will fail to produce any result for peace and stability in Afghanistan as the parties to the conflict including Taliban and Hizb-e-Islami have rejected it. 

&#8220;Now when Pakistan, an important stakeholder of peace in the region, is also boycotting the US-backed conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, its failure is inevitable,&#8221; she added. 

She said that in fact the international community is not serious in peace in Afghanistan and the conference was only called in to forward agenda of US in the region. &#8220;Europe is passing through economic recession what they can donate for future in Afghanistan, they can hardly bear expenses of their own soldiers,&#8221; she further said while commenting on post 2014 support by EU to Afghanistan. 

The parliamentarian claimed that only she has been in contact with Taliban Supreme Commander Mullah Omer, who is ready for peace talks. But the Karzai&#8217;s administration and his foreigner supporters are not serious in holding peace talks. 

&#8220;They some time urges Pakistan to help in peace talks. None of the Pkistani official including the prime minister and the military leader ship has access to Omer for the last one year and I again say that only I have contact with him. Even top leader of Haqqani network cannot meet him, though they may have some telephonic contacts,&#8221; she claimed. 

Sultani said that solution to Afghanistan is simple and that is a point where all stakeholders within Afghanistan could agree. She suggested a government of the neutral, sincere and Afghan patriot government. &#8220;This suggestion is even acceptable to Mullah Omer. The current government is not sincere; it is corrupt and stool of foreigners. Leaders of Northern Alliance, personalities of former Mujahideen, Taliban and the present officials are not acceptable. There should be entire new people who can go for peace,&#8221; the parliamentarian said. 

The member of Wolesi jirga said that she was making efforts for peace by bargaining peace between President Karzai and Mullah Omer but useless as Karzai was not serious for peace talks. 

She blamed that the government in Afghanistan has banned free media in the country and her voice is not given coverage now. 

&#8220;Now I want to visit Pakistan, Iran, Russia, China and other regional countries to interact with media for hearing my urges for peace. And I already submitted my passport to Pakistani embassy in Kabul for visiting Peshawar and Islamabad. But, so far I was not given permission,&#8221; she said. 

Pakistan has boycotted the Bonn conference as a protest against NATO raids against two Pakistan posts in Mohmand Agency along Afghan border killing 24 Pakistani soldiers and wounding 16 others. After the attack Pakistan blocked supply route to NATO in Afghanistan via Pakistan and ordered US to vacate Shamsi airbase in Pakistan&#8217;s Balochistan.

ONLINE - International News Network


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## American Pakistani




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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I prefer we install some Missiles so such "MISTAKES" don't happen or they happen in Canadian cities not in Pakistan


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## President Camacho

Irfan Baloch said:


> So fight back with whatever you got, *you are going down anyway so why not give yourself a chance to go down fighting*?



I think that line came after the breaking of the CoC. Prior to that, whenever under fire from the ally forces, the post had to seek orders from above whether to fire back at the ally forces, because if the case were same as you state, then chances are it would have already blown to a full scale war with the US long time ago.

But the Pakistani Generals knew better than to engage in full scale war with the US/NATO. 

Even now, when the CoC has been canceled, Pakistan Army will never allow amassing of troops (Esp the F-16s) to back the posts at borders because, howsoever arrogant the US may appear, they (PA) respect the fact that it is still the formidable force in the area. 

Engagement of one/two posts resulting in two digit casualties will, under no circumstances, be allowed to stretch it into an engagement of an entire battalion/brigade.

So when they say "fight back with whatever you got", there is a hidden message that says "fight back if you want, just don't bring it further inside". - That is bound to happen if F-16s are sent as reinforcements.

This is my point - a casualty of 25 dying in a friendly fire and giving Pakistan the image of a victim, is any time better than a casualty of 250 dying in an all out offensive, at the same time portraying the PA as the villain.

I am not taking it for granted that the Pakistani Army is so weak it will perish at the mere sight of the American forces, rather, I am basing my judgement on historical accounts of tens of thousands getting ruthlessly killed in matter of hours - as it happened on 26-27 Feb 1991 (Highway of Death).

Will the US care about popular perception? History tells us no.

Is the US capable of creating another Highway of Death? Facts tell us yes.

Will the Americans take their tolls just sitting down? We all know they won't.

It looks more like a Catch-22 situation to me. The only two choices are - either let the posts fire at will (and at their own risks) and let them perish in the process, or send in reinforcements and bring the war back home.

It is purely my view - that if the PA were not to play in the hands of prevailing anti-US sentiments, it would have very easily found numerous other choices that would be many times more profitable, and avoid this Catch-22 situation in its entirety.

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## American Pakistani

lol, Cameron Munter speaks some Urdu.

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## American Pakistani

MORE THAN 250 SOLDIERS INJURED IN NATO ATTACKS IN 3 YEARS: DG ISPR 07:56 PST

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## 53fd

Pakistan does not need to have an open confrontation with the US/NATO Forces, especially when they hold all the important cards of the fate of the WOT in Afghanistan. The US came back on their knees apologizing to Pakistan when the supply lines were closed for 11 days, all this tough posturing on their end is meaningless, because without Pakistan, there is no WOT in Afghanistan. The US & NATO Forces will be sitting ducks in Afghanistan if they don't manage to get Pakistan's co-operation.

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## iPhone

American Pakistani said:


>



Obama calling today shows they're depserate to get Pakistan to attend this meeting. And if I ddint' know any better I'd say it's to corner Pak at the conference. Once you're sitting there, among all the world's leader, you tell em we've were wronged and the entire room will empathsize with you. Thenthey'll tell you alright, let it go, look at the bigger picture and butter you up with verbal judo. 

I think that is what Pak is trying to avoid. Being put in that awkward position where they have to say no to so many world leaders. Diplomatically it's not right.

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## Vassnti

bilalhaider said:


> The US & NATO Forces will be sitting ducks in Afghanistan if they don't manage to get Pakistan's co-operation.



What makes you think they will continue to sit in Afghanistan with no/reduced supplies?

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## American Pakistani

Karachi Students Protest.






The protestors organise themselves on the road outside the fortified US consulate building before they begin to march.






&#8220;We want transparency and accountability of any secret or political games happening between the US and Pakistan. We want open disclosure of information of whatever is happening in the corridors of power in our country today,&#8221; said Bemisal, an International Relations student and one of the organisers.





&#8220;GO NATO GO!&#8221; shouts an angry protestor.





Demonstrators block half the street outside the embassy, holding up an enormous Pakistani flag and passionately singing the national anthem at the top of their voices.

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## American Pakistani

&#8220;Our political leaders don&#8217;t visit the US as much as our military generals do, and half our budget is taken away by the army. If they can&#8217;t defend their own selves, how will they defend us?&#8221; said Muhammad Yousuf, member of &#8216;Pakistan Awami Sangat&#8217;, a local student fraternity operating in the Korangi area to create awareness amongst the masses.





Candles are lit up as dusk approaches.





More people join in the candle light vigil across the road from the US embassy.





Some protestors have spray-painted their demands on the sidewalk as others walk on.

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## American Pakistani

Protestors lighting candles on the side of the road as the day gets darker.






More candles being lit up.





A demonstrator holds up a hand-made banner as others participate in the vigil.





A representative of the &#8216;Pakistan Awami Sangat&#8217; wearing the colours of the national flag round his head.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------






Aamna, a university student and primary school teacher, lights a candle. &#8220;We can&#8217;t just sit at home and watch the news telling us more of our people got killed again by Nato. It&#8217;s time we come out on the streets and record our protests.&#8221;





Children also actively took part in the protest.





Passionate protestors sing the national anthem on the candle-lit sidewalk, amid cries of &#8220;Go Nato Go!&#8221;

Courtesy: DAWN News.

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## Birbal

American Pakistani said:


> lol, Cameron Munter speaks some Urdu.



Even Katrina Kaif speaks with a better accent than Cameron Munter... Took me a while to realize what the hell he meant by "bohat".

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## VelocuR

American Pakistani said:


> lol, Cameron Munter speaks some Urdu.



Munter or any official must be thinking to use urdu words in order to make us feeling good or fall in love with them again. _Deceptions _and _tricks _known by US methods.


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## President Camacho

RaptorRX707 said:


> Munter or any official must be thinking to use urdu words in order to make us feeling good or fall in love with them again. _Deceptions _and _tricks _known by US methods.



Unless he can speak it flawlessly, he shouldn't just touch it. It sounds rather irritating making such cheap and shallow efforts when talking about matters so grave. 

However, if he were as good as Robert Blackville (US amb to India - he spoke better Hindi than majority of educated Indians), it would be altogether a different story.

I never understood such people who go to countries as Ambassadors and yet do not make an effort to learn the language - unpardonable sin.

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## VelocuR

President Camacho said:


> Unless he can speak it flawlessly, he shouldn't just touch it. It sounds rather irritating making such cheap and shallow efforts when talking about matters so grave.
> 
> However, if he were as good as Robert Blackville (US amb to India - he spoke better Hindi than majority of educated Indians), it would be altogether a different story.
> 
> *I never understood such people who go to countries as Ambassadors and yet do not make an effort to learn the language - unpardonable sin.  *



well said, Camacho. I think, he should be replaced by Robert Blackville! Most of the Ambassadors _at last minute_ to learn some foreign languages to please them or hope to cool down high tensions. That's it.

You can tell how his soft face expression in soft voices ....like this

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## Donatello

RaptorRX707 said:


> Munter or any official must be thinking to use urdu words in order to make us feeling good or fall in love with them again. _Deceptions _and _tricks _known by US methods.




Talk about being a Chameleon......

BTW i have met this guy in US, 6 months before he was Posted to Islamabad. He was eating biryani made by South Asian students at a college.

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## karan.1970

Emmie said:


> Goodness gracious me, that was ridiculous... I can't believe a person can be that silly while arguing.. On one hand you say lets wait for the report and on other hand you illustrate and assume things yourself. I must say you are too good at investigations why don't you join CENTCOM's initiative for prob into the incident?



You better believe it mate.. I mean about a person being silly while arguing.. 

I surely want to wait for the report.. however when some of our *unsilly* esteemed members claim that there is no way the report from NATO can offer any plausible explanation for the helis not stopping even after being told about blue on blue, in my view, there is no harm in offering possible scenarios. After all, a lot of these unsilly members spent pages and pages explaining why the NATO forces couldnt have come under fire as there is no gun that can fire 2.5 km.. Kind of looked silly once ISPR agreed to the NATO's unofficial version of posts being approx 300 yards from the border..

Its simple buddy.. Things that may sound silly when you are basing all your analysis on a set of assumptions, become pretty plausible if one or more of those assumptions get negated..

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## unicorn

*Anti Terror Cooperation: Pakistan to rewrite rules of engagement*


ISLAMABAD: 
Pakistan has decided to scrap all existing anti-terror cooperation agreements with the United States in a development that may not only take the uneasy alliance between the two countries to the point of no return but also impede world efforts at bringing sustainable peace in Afghanistan.

The decision, which was taken after consultations at the top civil and military levels following the Nato airstrikes, is part of a review of political, diplomatic and military ties with the US, officials familiar with the development told The Express Tribune.

This, however, does not mean the government is seeking a complete breakdown in the relationship with the US. Rather, it is aiming to enter a fresh agreement that clearly states in writing Pakistans red lines and firm assurance from Washington not to violate those in the future, added the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The countrys insistence on re-drafting the rules of engagements is part of what is believed to be tough conditions set out for the resumption of business as usual with the US.

Since the November 26 Nato attacks at Pakistani border posts in Mohmand Agency, Islamabad appears to have hardened its stance  a move that could jeopardise the US campaign in Afghanistan.

Pakistan has already boycotted the key international conference on Afghanistan, scheduled to begin on Monday in the German city of Bonn, in protest and as an attempt to send a clear message to the US that it will not become part of any reconciliation process if its sovereignty continues to be violated by Nato forces.

It is not possible to continue cooperation under the existing arrangements following the Nato attack, said a senior military official.Pakistan can now only restart its cooperation with the US after a new agreement that clearly defines rules of engagements, the official pointed out.The review the government intends to undertake may also affect the CIA-led drone campaign in the countrys tribal areas.Though, Pakistan publicly condemns the use of pilot-less drones as violation of its sovereignty, it is believed that there exists a secret understanding with the US.
This will now be renegotiated, disclosed another official.US has taken advantage Officials believe that the US has taken advantage of the level of freedom given to them to pursue war on terror on Pakistani soil.

The repeated incursions by the US-led Nato forces is also attributed to the loose arrangements agreed between the two countries during the former military ruler General Pervez Musharrafs regime.

When approached, Director-General Inter-Service Public Relations (ISPR) Major General Athar Abbas said cooperation with the US would be revisited in line with the governments decision. However, he would not share further details.

Despite Pakistans tough stance, the US has not yet indicated or approached the government that it is willing to renegotiate terms of engagement.The only thing they (US) are saying at the moment is, wait for the findings of the investigations into the Nato attack, said a foreign ministry official.The inquiry, which was ordered by the US Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff, will be made public on December 23.

Irrespective of the US probe, Pakistan military is clear that the attack was deliberate and a simple apology wont normalise relationship.US error blamed for airstrike A report in The Telegraph said on Sunday that the US officers gave incorrect information to their Pakistani counterparts to seek clearance regarding the Nato airstrike.

The report quoted a Pakistani military official, while talking to The Sunday Telegraph, saying that the US gave wrong information to the border coordination unit about a suspected Taliban position before the attack while seeking clearance from the Pakistani side to carry out the attack.

The strike had begun before we realised the target was a border post, he said. The Americans say we gave them clearance but they gave us the wrong information. (with additional input from wires)

Anti-terror cooperation: Pakistan to rewrite rules of engagement  The Express Tribune

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## karan.1970

Irfan Baloch said:


> haha you are unbelievable, I think Americans should USE your line in the 23rd Dec report. We came back to finsh them off because they made the fatal mistake of firing back at us.


You guys gotta tell me.. Is it silly or unbelievable.. or unbelievably silly 
But staying on topic, another possible explanation could be that blue on blue message didnt reach the attacking force in time.. The force that withdrew in face of AA fire from the second force, just retreated to regroup and came back as a tactical move. 






Irfan Baloch said:


> You pretty much killed the discussion


Dont understand...



Irfan Baloch said:


> As far as your hypothetical question is concerned, all I can say is that there is next to no chance of that happening because no one can match the American record in this matter.
> But for argument sake if the attacker doesnt heed your calls just like someone cant identify himself to a sentry at a high security installation he is clear to fire no matter who the intruder is. So to ease you my man, doesnt matter if the attacker was Chinese, Saudi, Burmese, Ugandan, Indian or even Pakistani.. If the communication is made to halt the attack and the attacker doesnt there are 2 possibilities
> 
> 1. He is hostile enemy
> 2. He is a retard like these attackers on 26th
> 
> So fight back with whatever you got, you are going down anyway so why not give yourself a chance to go down fighting?



So in your view the 1st shot was fired at the attacking helicopter only after the Pakistani command communicated the blue on blue to NATO and the helis still didnt stop the attack?? Somehow that doesnt gel with the statements I have seen about the incident.. 


You must forward your lines to CENTCOM man , they will love it.[/QUOTE]


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## unicorn



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## Mercenary

^^ can you translate that?


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## unicorn

*US attack on Pakistani posts &#8216;unpardonable': defence expert*


WASHINGTON - A noted South Asia defence analyst who spent six years in Pakistan as Australia's military attache has condemned as "unpardonable" Nato's attack on border posts in Mohmand in which 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed.

"The US assault is unpardonable," wrote Cloughley in CounterPunch, a bi-weekly American newsletter. "It was one of the only too frequent Cowboy Yippee Shoots, as we used to call them in Vietnam when I served there in the Australian army. Some things don&#8217;t change," said Cloughley, who contributes regularly to Jane's weekly said.

Cloughley, who now lives in France, said he was in Mohmand three weeks ago, visiting 77 Brigade, "whose officers and soldiers were slaughtered by US aircraft, and I know exactly where Pakistan&#8217;s border posts are located. And so do American forces, because they have been informed of the precise coordinates of all them." 

"Nobody can deny that the posts are well inside Pakistan," he wrote.

"Those killed in the US attack on Pakistan included Captain Usman, whose six-month-old daughter will never see him again, and Major Mujahid who was to be married shortly. Well done, you gallant warriors of the skies. May you never sleep contented."
After giving various versions of the incident, Cloughley, who believes there is no military solution to the conflict in Afghanistan, commented, "The 'sacrifices that America is making' in Afghanistan, in what is ludicrously called &#8216;Operation Enduring Freedom&#8217;, are entirely self-inflicted. But Pakistan&#8217;s sacrifices are inflicted by America, which is losing yet another war and again blames another country for its failure. Just like it did in the disasters in Vietnam and Somalia and Iraq.

"In the past 50 years, what nation has trusted America and come out of the deal with dignity, honour and prosperity? Pakistan is far from a perfect country. Its government is corrupt and appallingly inefficient. But it could do without Washington&#8217;s imperial insolence. 

*At the moment Islamabad is desperate to find some means of registering the country&#8217;s contempt and loathing for the United States, and there are very few options available to it. But it could reflect on what Washington&#8217;s retaliation would have been if Pakistani aircraft had gone on a yippee shoot and killed 24 American soldiers inside Afghanistan."*

US attack on Pakistani posts unpardonable': defence expert | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## Omar1984

Mercenary said:


> ^^ can you translate that?



I thought you were Pakistani. How come you can't read in "your own" language.

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## Devil Soul

*US vacating Shamsi air base, says Cameron Munter*
AP (1 hour ago) Today

US Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter. &#8212; Photo by AP

ISLAMABAD: The United States is vacating an air base in Pakistan used by American drones, complying with a key demand made by Islamabad in retaliation for the Nato airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, the US ambassador said Monday.

The move is not expected to significantly curtail drone attacks in Pakistan, since Shamsi air base in southwestern Balochistan province was only used to service drones that had mechanical or weather difficulties.

But Washington&#8217;s decision to leave the base shows how the Nato attacks on November 26 have plunged the already strained US-Pakistan relationship to an all-time low.

The crisis threatens US attempts to get Pakistan to cooperate on winding down the Afghan war.

Pakistan immediately retaliated by blocking its Afghan border crossings to Nato supplies and giving the US 15 days to vacate Shamsi &#8212; a deadline that falls on December 11. It is also boycotting an international conference in Bonn, Germany, on Afghanistan.

US Ambassador Cameron Munter said in a local TV interview that Washington was doing its best to comply with Pakistan&#8217;s demand to leave the air base.

&#8221;I think what we can promise you is that we will do everything we can to vacate the Shamsi base by the date that you asked us,&#8221; said Munter.

The ambassador did not mention the use of the base by American drones.

The US does not acknowledge the CIA-run drone program in Pakistan publicly, but American officials have said privately that the strikes have killed many senior Taliban and al-Qaeda commanders.


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## Ajaxpaul

Obama says Pakistan troop deaths "regrettable"



WASHINGTON: President Barack Obama on Sunday called Pakistan's president to offer condolences over a NATO air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops and provoked a crisis in relations between the two countries.

Obama told President Asif Ali Zardari that the soldiers' deaths were "regrettable" and accidental, according to a White House statement.

The comments stopped short of a formal apology but were aimed at soothing Pakistani fury over the Nov. 26 incident.

"Earlier today the president placed a phone call to Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari to personally express his condolences on the tragic loss of twenty-four Pakistani soldiers this past week along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan," the White House statement said.

"The president made clear that this regrettable incident was not a deliberate attack on Pakistan and reiterated the United States' strong commitment to a full investigation."

The NATO air strike has added to strains in relations with Islamabad, whose cooperation Washington views as crucial to helping to stabilize the region before foreign combat troops leave Afghanistan in 2014.

U.S.-Pakistani relations were already frayed after the secret U.S. raid in May that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Obama's phone call came on the eve of an international conference in Germany on the future of Afghanistan.

Pakistan is boycotting the conference because of the NATO air strikes.

On Saturday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spoke by phone with Pakistani Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani to offer condolences.

U.S. and Pakistani officials have offered differing initial accounts of what happened at the Pakistani posts near the border with Afghanistan.

Pakistan said the attack was unprovoked, with officials calling it an act of blatant aggression - an accusation the United States has rejected.

*Two U.S. officials have told Reuters that preliminary information from the ongoing investigation indicated Pakistani officials at a border coordination center had cleared the air strike, unaware they had troops in the area.*


Obama says Pakistan troop deaths "regrettable" - The Times of India


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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> May be the second attack was a result of Pakistani retaliation. Since in most truly blue on blue incidents, the receiver of friendly fire doesnt hit back..



So, you are saying its right or it was their (USofAs) right to attack once again their ally's post the second time to finish them off since the US soldiers attacked initially by mistake. You get fire from your ally's position by a 12.7mm gun, which by the way can't do anything to the helicopter it as fired at, the ally does the firing because you attacked its position first, the US forces return back and say to each other hey, those Pakistani soldiers fired at us even though we first attacked their position, even though we did not suffered any casualties, it was our mistake, thus we need to give a reply and decimate those soldiers. 

Well, i do hope Indian sanity / intellectual level is at a level which can clearly then see that it was deliberate. 

And going by your definition, it gives the right to PA to reply back in the same token as it likes and kill as many US soldiers as it can through any mean available. 


You Indians are awesome, nothing parallels you guys including the Americans who thank your such pathetic posts.

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## TaimiKhan

fittay mou tera said:


> dear taimi sir dont u think musharaf should be brought back and tried for buying american war and imposing it over the nation.
> 40,000 dead Pakistanis....$80 billion worth of loss.....who will pay all this???



Yes, he should be. All the ones who had their part should be brought to answer, military & non-military. 

But this is not the thread to discuss that, stick to the topic and avoid abusive language / words.

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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> So, you are saying its right or it was their (USofAs) right to attack once again their ally's post the second time to finish them off since the US soldiers attacked initially by mistake. You get fire from your ally's position by a 12.7mm gun, which by the way can't do anything to the helicopter it as fired at, the ally does the firing because you attacked its position first, the US forces return back and say to each other hey, those Pakistani soldiers fired at us even though we first attacked their position, even though we did not suffered any casualties, it was our mistake, thus we need to give a reply and decimate those soldiers.
> 
> Well, i do hope Indian sanity / intellectual level is at a level which can clearly then see that it was deliberate.
> 
> And going by your definition, it gives the right to PA to reply back in the same token as it likes and kill as many US soldiers as it can.
> 
> 
> You Indians are awesome, nothing parallels you guys including the Americans who thank your such pathetic posts.



I am now gonna shut up on this topic.. You Pakistani folks either are not understanding that I am trying to give reasons on how this could be an accident and not a planned attack or dont want to understand.. Enjoy you single sided views...

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## Irfan Baloch

TaimiKhan said:


> So, you are saying its right or it was their (USofAs) right to attack once again their ally's post the second time to finish them off since the US soldiers attacked initially by mistake. You get fire from your ally's position by a 12.7mm gun, which by the way can't do anything to the helicopter it as fired at, the ally does the firing because you attacked its position first, the US forces return back and say to each other hey, those Pakistani soldiers fired at us even though we first attacked their position, even though we did not suffered any casualties, it was our mistake, thus we need to give a reply and decimate those soldiers.
> 
> Well, i do hope Indian sanity / intellectual level is at a level which can clearly then see that it was deliberate.
> 
> And going by your definition, it gives the right to PA to reply back in the same token as it likes and kill as many US soldiers as it can through any mean available.
> 
> 
> You Indians are awesome, nothing parallels you guys including the Americans who thank your such pathetic posts.




you summed it up very well,

the kind of posts from these chaps and the kind of people thanking them
pretty much kills any chance of a meaningful discussion.


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## TaimiKhan

karan.1970 said:


> I am now gonna shut up on this topic.. You Pakistani folks either are not understanding that I am trying to give reasons on how this could be an accident and not a planned attack or dont want to understand.. Enjoy you single sided views...



Good step. Should have done that way back. We understand you guys well, you guys are OK with whatever US does and to you what US did is justified, since it is Pakistan which suffered, your enemy. 

When the unnamed sources in US said that Pak was at wrong, you guys were at our throats, now again unnamed sources in US saying that somewhat US mistake may be there and still you guys are at our throats. 

Impossible to make you guys understand, since you are Indians and its Pakistan which is involved. I bet you and others Indians and unfortunately some others sitting in US would be smiling when you guys heard what happened to 2 dozen Pak soldiers at the hand of US and would have wished more often should this happen. 

And i can guarantee, that if tomorrow US did said its soldiers were at mistake, you guys will come up with other excuses to justify the American mistake.

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## Irfan Baloch

karan.1970 said:


> I am now gonna shut up on this topic.. You Pakistani folks either are not understanding that I am trying to give reasons on how this could be an accident and not a planned attack or dont want to understand.. Enjoy you single sided views...




Now now

please dont be like that. please accept my condolence for breaking your heart and not understanding your reasons to justify the NATO attack.

I am sure you have been following this thread from start and would have seen that the repeat attack pretty much removed any doubts and excuses for a mistake, blue on blue or confusion or fog of war. But since you justified it in your earlier posts so my friend there is nothing much we can do for you in you don&#8217;t want to post here because we beg to differ with your reasoning.

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## regular

ajaxpaul said:


> Obama says Pakistan troop deaths "regrettable"
> 
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON: President Barack Obama on Sunday called Pakistan's president to offer condolences over a NATO air strike that killed 24 Pakistani troops and provoked a crisis in relations between the two countries.
> 
> Obama told President Asif Ali Zardari that the soldiers' deaths were "regrettable" and accidental, according to a White House statement.
> 
> The comments stopped short of a formal apology but were aimed at soothing Pakistani fury over the Nov. 26 incident.
> 
> "Earlier today the president placed a phone call to Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari to personally express his condolences on the tragic loss of twenty-four Pakistani soldiers this past week along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan," the White House statement said.
> 
> "The president made clear that this regrettable incident was not a deliberate attack on Pakistan and reiterated the United States' strong commitment to a full investigation."
> 
> The NATO air strike has added to strains in relations with Islamabad, whose cooperation Washington views as crucial to helping to stabilize the region before foreign combat troops leave Afghanistan in 2014.
> 
> U.S.-Pakistani relations were already frayed after the secret U.S. raid in May that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.
> 
> Obama's phone call came on the eve of an international conference in Germany on the future of Afghanistan.
> 
> Pakistan is boycotting the conference because of the NATO air strikes.
> 
> On Saturday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spoke by phone with Pakistani Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani to offer condolences.
> 
> U.S. and Pakistani officials have offered differing initial accounts of what happened at the Pakistani posts near the border with Afghanistan.
> 
> Pakistan said the attack was unprovoked, with officials calling it an act of blatant aggression - an accusation the United States has rejected.
> 
> *Two U.S. officials have told Reuters that preliminary information from the ongoing investigation indicated Pakistani officials at a border coordination center had cleared the air strike, unaware they had troops in the area.*
> 
> 
> Obama says Pakistan troop deaths "regrettable" - The Times of India


Hey U guyz tell ure Bigg DADDY Obama what he wants from us???....Go to Hell and leave us alone.......


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## v9s

Omar1984 said:


> I thought you were Pakistani. How come you can't read in "your own" language.



Not everyone was raised in Pakistan, you know...


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## karan.1970

Irfan Baloch said:


> Now now
> 
> please dont be like that. please accept my condolence for breaking your heart and not understanding your reasons to justify the NATO attack.
> 
> I am sure you have been following this thread from start and would have seen that the repeat attack pretty much removed any doubts and excuses for a mistake, blue on blue or confusion or fog of war. But since you justified it in your earlier posts so my friend there is nothing much we can do for you in you don&#8217;t want to post here because we beg to differ with your reasoning.



I dont want to post on this thread because we are degenerating the dialog into the realms of Indian sanity/mentality and generalizations like you Indians etc. Normally, next comes a series of trolls and bans.. As I said, no more discussion on this thread by me till 23rd 

PS:: My heat is all fine..  .. It takes a different kind of event to cause my heartbreak


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## Irfan Baloch

regular said:


> Hey tell Obama what he wants from us....Go to Hell and leave us alone.......




he wants us to attend the Bonn meeting and put the blame on its failure and as the rumours have it in Washington, Pakistan is sending some low level delegation after all

Obama might have reminded Zardari that his one command can see all Zardari assets frozen across the globe. It&#8217;s the mater of honor and for name sake ZAR- (eanign money) Dari would do anything. Sending a delegation after all is no big deal.


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## karan.1970

TaimiKhan said:


> Good step. Should have done that way back. We understand you guys well, you guys are OK with whatever US does and to you what US did is justified, since it is Pakistan which suffered, your enemy.
> 
> When the unnamed sources in US said that Pak was at wrong, you guys were at our throats, now again unnamed sources in US saying that somewhat US mistake may be there and still you guys are at our throats.
> 
> *Impossible to make you guys understand, since you are Indians and its Pakistan which is involved. I bet you and others Indians and unfortunately some others sitting in US would be smiling when you guys heard what happened to 2 dozen Pak soldiers at the hand of US and would have wished more often should this happen*.
> 
> And i can guarantee, that if tomorrow US did said its soldiers were at mistake, you guys will come up with other excuses to justify the American mistake.



As I said, I wont argue on this anymore.. I do have strong objection to the bold part, but since I have no way of proving otherwise, I am not going to waste my breath on it..


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## Irfan Baloch

karan.1970 said:


> I dont want to post on this thread because we are degenerating the dialog into the realms of Indian sanity/mentality and generalizations like you Indians etc. Normally, next comes a series of trolls and bans.. As I said, no more discussion on this thread by me till 23rd


hey we also get the same blame from you guys so feeling is mutual
23 Dec report will be as good as their previous reports about American "mistakes" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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## karan.1970

Irfan Baloch said:


> hey we also get the same blame from you guys so feeling is mutual
> 23 Dec report will be as good as their previous reports about American "mistakes" in Iraq and Afghanistan.



I generally try to avoid generalizations based on a few internet based opinions where the actual nationalities cant even be confirmed but whatever.. And also avoid predicting what may come in future reports. Though frankly, the detail I am most awaiting is the whole deal on the 2nd round of attack. it is the weakest link in the whole story..


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## Safriz

Bonn conference has started and Pakistan isnt there..


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## Jango

safriz said:


> Bonn conference has started and Pakistan isnt there..



No surprise really.

Whatever they say in the conference, nothing is going to be implemented and the true pullout plan and future of Afghanistan can never be settled unless the Taliban, Afghans( Not Karzai) and pakistan is taken on board. And when the US wants, conference or no conference.


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## Irfan Baloch

safriz said:


> Bonn conference has started and Pakistan isnt there..


 


I was refering to the following news in Dawn 

http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/05/pakistan-may-attend-afghan-talks-claim-sources.html

where Americans are claimign a breakthrough after Obama's call to Zardari

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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> I was refering to the following news in Dawn
> 
> Pakistan may attend Afghan talks, claim sources | World | DAWN.COM
> 
> where Americans are claimign a breakthrough after Obama's call to Zardari



A bit of tough talk by Mr. Obama perhaps?

A better person to call might have been the PM may be.


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## SQ8



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## Irfan Baloch

Santro said:


>






Michael Scheuer, is my favourite, very articulate and eloquent debater, a proud American, a great American patriot and doesn&#8217;t mince his words he has been the head of Bin Laden unit in CIA during President Bush time. 

Although I welcome his positive and pro-Pakistan remarks that he has made over the years and defended Pakistan on various discussions but the real reason I respect this person is that he is not a lying hypocrite like the Neo Cons are who will throw the sympathy card whenever it suits them to justify their murder and outright arrogance. 
You might want to look up to his answer to Bill Maher on you tube, its not related to WoT or Pakistan at all but what he says really refreshing and one cant help but wish if everyone was a patriot and straight talker like he is.

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## Emmie

Michael Scheuer explains the reality...

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## Devil Soul

*NATO attack aftermath: Bereaved demand end to &#8216;America&#8217;s war&#8217;*
By AFP
Published: December 5, 2011





BHAGWAL: Bereaved Pakistanis are demanding an end to their country&#8217;s alliance with the US and banning of drone attacks in the region. It remains unclear the extent to which the government or the military will implement changes.
Relatives of martyred soldiers believe that Pakistan should not be paying a high price to figh this war.
Sergeant Mumtaz Hussain was deployed to fight the Taliban on the Afghan border and was the sole breadwinner of the family. The survival of his family, which includes his mother, wife and two young children, depended on the military salary and pension.

&#8220;The day he died, the children missed him immensely. They told me they just wanted to see him and would not go to school until they had. My son still does not believe he is dead,&#8221; Mussarrat Bibi said.

&#8220;This is not the first time the US attacked our soldiers, but our government is not responding,&#8221; she added. &#8220;If our government decides to come out of this alliance, things may improve &#8230; These drone strikes are fuelling terrorism and strengthening the Taliban,&#8221; said his uncle Muhammad Nazeer.

Tasleem Akhter&#8217;s 20-year-old son, Rizwan Abbas, was recruited last year.

*&#8220;He desired to sacrifice his life for his country. I can sacrifice all my sons for my homeland but our government should also take necessary action,&#8221; said Akhter. 

&#8220;While we were out walking down the streets, he told me this might be his last trip to the village and asked me to change the national flag on his grave regularly after his death,&#8221; recalled Jameel Akhter. &#8220;He always told stories about fights against the Taliban. I never expected he would die so soon,&#8221; he added.*
Published in The Express Tribune, December 5th, 2011.

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## Oldman1

I never knew how much outrage there is. Wheres the outrage when the Taliban attacks the outposts? Maybe its acceptable to be killed by Muslims than non-Muslims.

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## Devil Soul

Oldman1 said:


> I never knew how much outrage there is. Wheres the outrage when the Taliban attacks the outposts? Maybe its acceptable to be killed by Muslims than non-Muslims.


But u claim to be our *FRIENDS.*....

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## Irfan Baloch

Oldman1 said:


> I never knew how much outrage there is. Wheres the outrage when the Taliban attacks the outposts? Maybe its acceptable to be killed by Muslims than non-Muslims.



we wont complain a Taliban attack as we are at war with them. they are the enemy.
for their every single attack there are many more done on them.

where as 
you guys are supposed to be our allies..yet what you did was nothing different from what a hostile enemy would do. 

this action has just killed our drive to fight this war for Americans. what little support it had is now lost and the Taliban are celebrating the victory and their propoganda is going arround in both Pakistan and Afghanistan with ...".. told you so comments."

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## Emmie

Oldman1 said:


> I never knew how much outrage there is. Wheres the outrage when the Taliban attacks the outposts? Maybe its acceptable to be killed by Muslims than non-Muslims.



We don't consider Taliban our friends, they have killed thousands of our soldiers and civilians, our Army is after those insurgents. Whereas we consider US and US led forces our friends and its very unfortunate that we are being killed by our own friends repeatedly.


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## BATMAN

Oldman1 said:


> I never knew how much outrage there is. Wheres the outrage when the Taliban attacks the outposts? Maybe its acceptable to be killed by Muslims than non-Muslims.



You share common objective with TTP and it is quite obvious.

While how much outrage is out there, can be seen on this thread.. which you obviously failed to see.


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## JonAsad

Oldman1 said:


> I never knew how much outrage there is. Wheres the outrage when the Taliban attacks the outposts? Maybe its acceptable to be killed by Muslims than non-Muslims.



Old man you should call it a quits- its above your interpretation now-


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## iPhone

How many times have we not posted news about taliban attacks on PA and civilians and showed our anger towards taliban, cursed them out and cheered PA when they captured or killed ttp bastards.

This attack is different as it came from people our army put their lives on the line for. We feel betrayed as it appears we were back stabbed. Not only our soldiers were killed but our army is being accused of complicity in the attack by the perpetrators. 

So why wouldn't we be outraged?

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## nwmalik

Oldman1 said:


> I never knew how much outrage there is. Wheres the outrage when the Taliban attacks the outposts? Maybe its acceptable to be killed by Muslims than non-Muslims.



taliban dont claim to be our friends


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## Abu Zolfiqar

TaimiKhan said:


> So, you are saying its right or it was their (USofAs) right to attack once again their ally's post the second time to finish them off since the US soldiers attacked initially by mistake. You get fire from your ally's position by a 12.7mm gun, which by the way can't do anything to the helicopter it as fired at, the ally does the firing because you attacked its position first, the US forces return back and say to each other hey, those Pakistani soldiers fired at us even though we first attacked their position, even though we did not suffered any casualties, it was our mistake, thus we need to give a reply and decimate those soldiers.
> 
> Well, i do hope Indian sanity / intellectual level is at a level which can clearly then see that it was deliberate.
> 
> And going by your definition, it gives the right to PA to reply back in the same token as it likes and kill as many US soldiers as it can through any mean available.
> 
> 
> You Indians are awesome, nothing parallels you guys including the Americans who thank your such pathetic posts.



it's hard to instill even basic common sense in some people who arent able or willing to perceive common sense


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## Oldman1

Devil Soul said:


> But u claim to be our *FRIENDS.*....



Yes we are friends. Have you heard of blue on blue. We sometimes accidentally kill our own does that mean we are not friends?

---------- Post added at 04:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 AM ----------




Irfan Baloch said:


> we wont complain a Taliban attack as we are at war with them. they are the enemy.
> for their every single attack there are many more done on them.
> 
> where as
> you guys are supposed to be our allies..yet what you did was nothing different from what a hostile enemy would do.
> 
> this action has just killed our drive to fight this war for Americans. what little support it had is now lost and the Taliban are celebrating the victory and their propoganda is going arround in both Pakistan and Afghanistan with ...".. told you so comments."



Thats pretty much BS to me because they could have easily protested against Taliban attacks. Yet I don't see that going around. Enough said. No burning of Mullah Omar pics if he had any.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

accidental 2 hour engagement even after radio contact was established?

it's UNPRECEDENTED!!!!



(well, the USS Liberty attack does come to mind)

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## pakistanitarzan

Tribute to my beloved shaheed solders of Pak Fauj!
Socha Nahi Tha in HD (Amitab, Sanjay, Sunil, Mahesh, Lucky, Kumar) - Kaante - YouTube


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## Safriz

Pakistani's Protest Outside Bonn


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## Jango

Oldman1 said:


> Yes we are friends. Have you heard of blue on blue. We sometimes accidentally kill our own does that mean we are not friends?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Thats pretty much BS to me because they could have easily protested against Taliban attacks. Yet I don't see that going around. Enough said. No burning of Mullah Omar pics if he had any.



You really are a very old man!!

We are at war with those guys precisely because we hate them. Had we not been condemning them, then would we have been waging war against those Taliban?

Get your head straight oldman.


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## Abii

Oldman1 said:


> I never knew how much outrage there is. Wheres the outrage when the Taliban attacks the outposts? Maybe its acceptable to be killed by Muslims than non-Muslims.


lmao the audacity!!!!
I have to commend you pakistanis. In an iranian forum, he would be perm banned after making 2 comments like this haha you guys have a lot of patience.


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## unicorn

*US officials say Pakistan leaving liaison centers*


(AP) ISLAMABAD &#8212; Pakistan is pulling its troops out of at least two of the three centers meant to coordinate military activity across the Afghan border in apparent retaliation for NATO airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, U.S. military officials said.

The move will hamper U.S. efforts to liaise with Pakistani forces, increasing the risk that something could go wrong again, said the officials late Monday. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The U.S. and Pakistan have offered different accounts of what led to the NATO attacks against two army posts along the Afghan border before dawn on Nov. 26, but the deadly incident seems to have been caused in part by communication breakdowns.

The soldiers' deaths have plunged already strained U.S.-Pakistan relations to an all-time low, threatening Washington's attempts to get Pakistan to cooperate on the Afghan war.

Pakistan retaliated immediately by closing its Afghan border crossings to NATO supplies, demanding the U.S. vacate an air base used by American drones and boycotting an international conference held Monday in Bonn, Germany, aimed at stabilizing Afghanistan.

Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani told The Associated Press in an interview Monday that Pakistan wants to repair relations with the United States.

But the military's decision to abandon the border coordination centers shows it is still outraged over the incident, which it has called deliberate &#8212; an allegation denied by the U.S.

Pakistan may still have troops at the coordination center in Torkham in the country's northwest Khyber tribal area, but has pulled out of the other two along the border, said the U.S. officials.

The Pakistani military did not immediately respond to request for comment.

US officials say Pakistan leaving liaison centers - CBS News


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## Omar1984

Americans are getting worried now 


*Pakistan Fans the Flames*


Pakistan is refusing to help calm public fury  or help figure out what led to a NATO attack that left 24 Pakistani soldiers dead. It has rejected American entreaties to participate in a joint investigation. On Monday, it boycotted an international conference in Bonn that laid plans for Afghanistans future. Both moves are self-defeating. 

If there is any chance of salvaging a working relationship, Washington and Islamabad must establish what went wrong along the border and work together to ensure that it does not happen again. The Pentagon has promised a transparent inquiry  it must deliver one  and officials say they can compensate for Pakistans lack of cooperation by using phone conversations, e-mail exchanges and surveillance images. But without Islamabads participation, the Pakistani public will never find the results credible. 

The two sides have radically different versions of what went awry during an Afghan-American operation against a Taliban training camp. The Americans say they were fired on first and cleared the strikes with Pakistani Army officers. The Pakistanis say that NATO gave the wrong coordinates for the strikes and that their forces fired only after the attacks began. 

The United States needs Pakistans cooperation  as grudging and duplicitous as it is. Islamabad controls supply routes for American troops in Afghanistan (they were closed in retaliation for the attack), and it is essential to negotiations with the Taliban. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta quickly offered condolences. President Obama waited eight days to overrule Pentagon concerns and telephone President Asif Ali Zardari of Pakistan to say the deaths were regrettable and accidental. We share frustrations over Pakistan, but that delay further fueled the crisis. 

Pakistan needs American aid  and help to hold off the extremists   a fact no Pakistani leader has the courage to admit. Their behavior in recent days has become even more irresponsible. Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the chief of the Pakistani Army, made things more dangerous by giving his border troops the green light to return fire without asking for permission beforehand. 

Pakistans refusal to attend the Bonn conference was misguided. The meeting, attended by dozens of countries and organizations, worked on a political and economic strategy to ensure Afghan stability after NATO troops draw down. Pakistan has a strong strategic and economic interest in Afghanistans future. With its boycott, it has denied itself a voice and increased its own isolation. 



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/opinion/pakistan-fans-the-flames.html

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## Irfan Baloch

Oldman1 said:


> Yes we are friends. Have you heard of blue on blue. We sometimes accidentally kill our own does that mean we are not friends?




yup we know, but the Ally heeds the calls and stops firing. doesnt come back and attacks again. doesnt ignore the calls, doesnt ignore the fact that these designated posts were already communicated to it.



Oldman1 said:


> Thats pretty much BS to me because they could have easily protested against Taliban attacks. Yet I don't see that going around. Enough said. No burning of Mullah Omar pics if he had any.



no my dear, its not BS... 
1. Taliban ARE celebrating the attack of the Americans on the Pakistan army (which is not the first time). 
2. Taliban ARE using this example to convince people to stop helping the WoT.
3. Mullah Omar has never attacked Pakistan, he is fighting the Invadors in his country.
4. pakistanis dont burn the pictures of Mullah Omar because he is only operating in Afghanistan and doesnt use the blue on blue excuse to repeatedly attack our posts.
5. As far as Pakistani Taliban or TTP is concerned, our religious leaders, Clergy, teachers, soldiers, policemen, scholars, doctors, rescue workers and ordinary civilians have protested and gave their lives while ignoring the threats of taliban. so what you say sir, is ill-informed, ignorant and malicious lie. But I don&#8217;t blame you if the media of your choice is very selective and choosing only the stories that suit the anti-Pakistan perception.

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## J.Tariq

i think we should create to four different thread on reasons given by US
1. Taliban attacked
2. Pakistan army fire first
3. wrong coordinates given
4. Error of US official (latest)
to discuss every aspects of these reasons separately and in detail


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## bdslph

dude which aid are you talking about the OBL operation everything was cut they dont need to pay Pakistan any more


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## Safriz

News channel reporting that Pakistan Army has evacuated 2 of the 3...so called liaison and communication posts on Pak-Afghan border..
NATO says this step will drastically decrease communications between PA and ISAF.
ISPR says they have evacuated the posts,but its temporary..
anybody knows more about this?

Pakistan Says They Are &#39;Temporarily&#39; Leaving Liaison Centers In Wake Of NATO Attack | Fox News

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## karan.1970

safriz said:


> News channel reporting that Pakistan Army has evacuated 2 of the 3...so called liaison and communication posts on Pak-Afghan border..
> NATO says this step will drastically decrease communications between PA and ISAF.
> ISPR says they have evacuated the posts,but its temporary..
> anybody knows more about this?
> 
> Pakistan Says They Are 'Temporarily' Leaving Liaison Centers In Wake Of NATO Attack | Fox News



Pakistan pulls out of border liaison posts; US concerned | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

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## Abu Zolfiqar

yes they are being de-briefed and will likely return to their posts eventually


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## Devil Soul

*US should apologise to Pakistan, NATO pay reparations to soldiers: Congressman Kucinich*
By Huma Imtiaz
Published: December 7, 2011
WASHINGTON: A United States Congressman from Ohio has called on his government to apologise to Pakistan, and for NATO to pay compensation to the families of 24 soldiers killed in a NATO air strike on a Pakistani border check post on November 26.
Speaking at an event organised by the Association of Physicians of Pakistani Descent of North America (APPNA) Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich, a Republican, said relations with Pakistan was a critical issue. We need to apologise to the people of Pakistan, NATO must pay reparations to the families of the soldiers.
His remarks come a day after US Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham called for Pakistans funding to be reviewed.
(Read: Key US Senators urge review of Pakistan funding)
Pakistani doctors face visa wall to working in US
Dr Zaffar Iqbal, a member of the 17000-member strong APPNA said nearly 130 doctors used to come every year to work in the US some years ago. This year, only 90 came.
Speaking to The Express Tribune on the sidelines of an event organized by APPNA at the Rayburn House Office Building to highlight to Congressmen the issues faced by Pakistani physicians applying for visas to work in the US, Dr Iqbal said numerous young physicians applying for visas to work in the US are facing delays or are being rejected by the US embassy and consulates. They dont get their visas on time, and hence cant join their residencies that theyve been offered. Dr Iqbal said that hospitals then become reluctant to offer residencies to Pakistani physicians.
He added that due to less Pakistanis being given visas, the number of Indian doctors coming to the US to work has more than doubled in the past few years.
Dr Manzoor Tariq, President of APPNA, said that they had held meetings with the State Department and Homeland Security to urge them to facilitate the process.
The event also saw a number of members of Congress attending, and looking at APPNA posters highlighting statistics of the decrease in Pakistani physicians coming to the US. APPNA says that a majority of Pakistani doctors work in the rural areas of the US, and provide a vital service to the country.
Addressing the event, Congressman Kucinich said, Im aware of complexities around US-Pakistan relations, but you are our brothers and sisters, and we need to help facilitate those who want to take care of people here.
Paying tribute to the Pakistani community in her district of Nevada, Congresswoman Birkley added that the US was facing a shortage of medical professionals, and offered her support to APPNA to push for more visas for Pakistani doctors.
Other members of Congress who attended the event and lent support to APPNA included Senator Bob Casey, Claire McCaskill, Congressman Guthrie and others.
Addressing the event, Tim Lenderking, the head of the Pakistan desk at the State Department, said that it was important to talk to the Embassy. Pakistan has done a great job in contributing to healthcare in the United States, and we want to support that.
US should apologise to Pakistan, NATO pay reparations to soldiers: Congressman Kucinich &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## Abu Zolfiqar

the families should be repayed the damages; no amount of crisp bills will ever bring back our shaheeds. It wont bring back the father, son, the breadwinner


a paradigm shift is also needed; Pakistan has been at the receiving end of an endless salvo of media-attacks. The smear campaigns must be ended. Afghanistan and those in charge of Afghanistan must not take Pakistan's patience as weakness. 

if they want to work as partners, they need to view us as equal partners.....so far that has not been the case


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## Irfan Baloch

I dont think demanding (read requesting) apology from America means anything and even if they do the unthinkable I doubt they will mean it.
flying a CAP nearby while their gunship&#8217;s massacred their Allies ignoring the distress calls and to remove the doubt returned back and attacked again hardly qualifies for a mistake.

maybe someone correct me but American state doesnt have the policy of apologising they have never apologised to the British their &#8220;cousins across the pond&#8221;. then why would they apologise to Pakistan?

I am getting fed up with these condolence and apologise demands and requests. The attack was premeditated and despite the efforts of Americans it didn&#8217;t escalate. While the culprits are now &#8220;investigating&#8221; the attack to explain why this attack happened, Pakistan should also give a detailed account along with the interviews of the survivors, the recorded radio massages and the CAP being flown by the Americans during the attack.

The appetite for war of that country is unmatchable since the 2nd world war it has been more or less in conflict from the tropical forests of Pacific to the Badlands of Southeast Asia and the deserts of middle east and not to forget its continuous harassment and toppling of government and assassinations in the Latin America. While its gearing up for war against Iran it also wants to take on Pakistan and wont mind going for Syria too.

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## Oldman1

Irfan Baloch said:


> yup we know, but the Ally heeds the calls and stops firing. doesnt come back and attacks again. doesnt ignore the calls, doesnt ignore the fact that these designated posts were already communicated to it.
> 
> Kind of reminds me of the A10 attacks on the British troops in Iraq. This is nothing new and not something to break relationship unless you just want to vent anger on someone you can easily see.
> 
> 
> no my dear, its not BS...
> 1. Taliban ARE celebrating the attack of the Americans on the Pakistan army (which is not the first time).
> 2. Taliban ARE using this example to convince people to stop helping the WoT.
> 3. Mullah Omar has never attacked Pakistan, he is fighting the Invadors in his country.
> 4. pakistanis dont burn the pictures of Mullah Omar because he is only operating in Afghanistan and doesnt use the blue on blue excuse to repeatedly attack our posts.
> 5. As far as Pakistani Taliban or TTP is concerned, our religious leaders, Clergy, teachers, soldiers, policemen, scholars, doctors, rescue workers and ordinary civilians have protested and gave their lives while ignoring the threats of taliban. so what you say sir, is ill-informed, ignorant and malicious lie. But I don&#8217;t blame you if the media of your choice is very selective and choosing only the stories that suit the anti-Pakistan perception.



Mullah Omar operating in Afghanistan yet we see Osama Bin Laden operating in Pakistan so don't BS on that crap either.

Thousands and thousands of Pakistanis have been killed by their own and yet we do not see the outrage. When there is an accident of some kind its like the people of Pakistan is going crazy, like a black man just hit a white woman back in pre-Civil Rights movement. The Crow Laws. So as you said before they ignore the Taliban because its acceptable. I don't blame your media as well. Its understandable you don't see the Taliban as a threat even those they attack your forces and killed thousands of Muslims.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Zardari is in Dubai , Pakistani top Hospital standards have gone so low that the head off state has to go to Dubai for checkup.

Is he there for some talks or he is running way from issues, for some time being ?


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## Irfan Baloch

Oldman1 said:


> *Mullah Omar operating in Afghanistan yet *we see Osama Bin Laden operating in Pakistan so don't BS on that crap either.
> 
> Thousands and thousands of Pakistanis have been killed by their own and yet we do not see the outrage. When there is an accident of some kind its like the people of Pakistan is going crazy, like a black man just hit a white woman back in pre-Civil Rights movement. The Crow Laws. So as you said before they ignore the Taliban because its acceptable. I don't blame your media as well. Its understandable you don't see the Taliban as a threat even those they attack your forces and killed thousands of Muslims.






Now now
so Mullah Omar in Afhganistan and you want me to protest against him? why? what for?
You mentioned Mullah Omar and I replied and you have no answer and resort to a kind of language which will only lead to personal insults. Now thanks for reminding us for the loss of thosuands of Paksitanis due to a War you guys imposed on us. yet I say again, I am sorry that you have missed it but the death and destruction has been equally mourned and condemned, almost every political and religious party has paid with the lives of its leadership. The outrage has been equally massive but as it happens your media didn&#8217;t chose to report it or your selective memory is failing you again. But what troubles you is why people are so much upset about American attack, like I answered earlier, its because we are supposed to be allies and allies don&#8217;t go around attacking the very allies who were there to assist you. So my dear, we wont protest against Mullah Omar because he didn&#8217;t attack our check posts last month but a supposed ally did.


Re OBL, let me tell you something stud, your President Clinton was more interested in getting into the knickers of Monica when he had the chance back in the days to kill Osama when a US drone made a positive ID of him in Afghanistan. 

Whats more, during the Tora Bora operation the American forces let the AQ and Taliban leadership escape by deliberately not covering all sides.
And now that he was &#8220;allegedly&#8221; caught and killed as the popular opinion goes one might ask, what the hell are the Americans doing here? The reason for invading the Afghanistan is achieved so why not take a hike? By the way take a hint, even the Afghan soldiers from the north are routinely killing the NATO soldiers and their instructors now that&#8217;s a limit really and bugger off.

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## Safriz

a documentary on the attack should be released by ISPR


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## Safriz

expact more accusations to cover CIA suppoted terrorism which justifies their military stay in afghanistan....
Pakistani militants claim responsibility for pilgrim slaughter - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

---------- Post added at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------

as if afghanistan has run short if terrorists that they are having to import from else where.


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## 53fd

safriz said:


> expact more accusations to cover CIA suppoted terrorism which justifies their military stay in afghanistan....
> Pakistani militants claim responsibility for pilgrim slaughter - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------
> 
> as if afghanistan has run short if terrorists that they are having to import from else where.



Some of the US media outlets (like Fox News, the WSJ) have already concluded that the Taliban or Al-Qaeda are not responsible for these attacks. They have already concluded that the LeJ was responsible for these attacks. 

This is what the Afghan interior ministry have to say:



> *Afghan attacks Taliban, not sectarian, says interior ministry*
> 
> Two attacks apparently targeting Shia Muslims have killed at least 58 people in Afghanistan.
> 
> In the deadliest incident, a suicide bomb struck a shrine in Kabul, while another blast struck near a Shia mosque in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif.
> 
> *But Afghan Interior Ministry spokesman, Sadiq Saddiqi, said he believed the attacks were not sectarian.
> 
> He told BBC News he thought the Taliban were responsible for the attacks.*
> 
> A Taliban statement said the group had not been behind either incident.



BBC News - Afghan attacks Taliban, not sectarian, says interior ministry


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## Omar1984

*Pentagon wants restoration of Pak posts on Afghan border*


WASHINGTON: Pentagon Tuesday expressed hope that Pakistan would restore all posts at Afghan border.

Earlier, Pakistan temporarily recalled some troops from border posts meant to coordinate activity with international forces in Afghanistan.

According to the Pentagon spokesman, this would certainly have an impact on the operations and risks the chances of incidents like the one that happened last month. He said that availability of centres would help to stop such incidents.

He said they wanted to get back a level of greater cooperation with Pakistani military.

Spokesman said that Pakistan did not recall all of its personnel, adding that they left one officer in each centres.



Pentagon wants restoration of Pak posts on Afghan border


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## Devil Soul

US hopeful Pakistan officers will return to border liaison centers soon
By Huma Imtiaz
Published: December 7, 2011
WASHINGTON: Captain John F Kirby, the Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense hoped that Pakistans officers can return to border coordination centers soon.
Speaking to The Express Tribune, Captain Kirby said, We are aware that Pakistan has decided to remove some of their liaison officers from some of the border coordination centers. This is certainly Pakistans right. We hope those liaison officers can resume their duties soon in as much as their presence is designed to help us reduce the risk of another such incident occurring.
Earlier on Monday, the Associated Press reported that Pakistan was pulling out troops from two of the three border coordination units at the Pak-Afghan border set-up for communication between NATO and Pakistani troops in retaliation to the NATO attack on November 26 that led to the death of 24 Pakistani soldiers.
Read more: natoattack
US hopeful Pakistan officers will return to border liaison centers soon &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Hasnain2009

A must watch video, specially for americans !

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## PiyaraPakistan

Irfan Baloch said:


> Respected members,
> 
> Please,
> 
> why do you really have to invite trolls by making such wishful posts? We all know where we stand.
> 
> Back in the days during the 80s we were able to stand the Soviets and shoot their planes because we had an active and ample backing of the Western and Muslim block. There is nothing of that sort at the moment and we are on our own.
> 
> Hopefully such day never comes when there are more casualties between the NATO and Pakistan because they were supposed to have Taliban as common enemy not become enemies of each other . You need to understand that there are elections coming in America and no one will like to appear a failure and weak .so pray for peace not war.
> 
> There is no need for any special order from COAS (thats just for media consumption just like asking US to vacate Shamsi base for nth time). If the soldiers come under sustained and deliberate fire they will retaliate anyway and hopefully with better air defence equipment but lets not pray for such event *because as the things are 99% chances are that we will come worse off whether we like it or not.*


 not agreed with the bold part.


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## F.O.X

Hor lawo pangay . . .

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## Safriz

ANALYSIS: Of NATO attacks and conspiracy theories Dr Moeed Pirzada

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Clearly defined and understood parameters of engagement will prevent the US and its allies from being sucked inadvertently into a large conflict of incalculable dimensions

Fyodor Dostoevsky had once written: Nothing is easier than to denounce the evil doer. Nothing is more difficult than to understand him. Almost 140 years after the publication of Demons (or The Possessed, as it was called in English), this is still as difficult if not impossible; especially if the demons are our own.

I was at a diplomatic dinner; the topic was Pakistans boycott of the Bonn Conference after the NATO attacks. Many Pakistanis were quietly asserting that these attacks look deliberate and most diplomats were aghast, for they found it difficult to believe that a rule-based organisation like NATO could deliberately do something that heinous and wild.

Back in my home I opened Steve Jobs gift, an iPad, for my nightly bibliotherapy. A little surfing took me to Foreign Affairs and there I found this new piece, Talking Tough to Pakistan by a certain Stephen Krasner that had first appeared on November 29, 2011. Lying lazily in my bed, I started galloping through its oft-repeated accusations of Pakistani double games. But soon I had a tingling sensation in my spine. I sat up and squinted my eyes to read carefully. Is he suggesting that the US should actually attack Pakistan?

Krasner was arguing that the only way the US can actually get what it wants of Pakistan is to make credible threats. And what will those credible threats be? Krasner suggested, among other things, an escalation of drone strikes, electronic jamming of Pakistani airspace, initiating cross-border raids by Special Operations against specific targets of such short duration that Pakistanis cannot retaliate with conventional forces, and finally strengthening US ties with India. This frightening cocktail of punishments had an amazingly benign name: Malign Neglect. His second set of punishments came under Active Isolation that included declaring Pakistan a state sponsor of terrorism.

Now fully sleepless in Islamabad, and intrigued by who this Stephen Krasner was, I clicked on his brief bio, expecting that this warmonger will be a frustrated Major or Colonel prematurely retired from service in Afghanistan for cerebral deficit but it turned out that Mr Krasner is a professor of international relations at Stanford University, a senior fellow at Hoover Institute and has served as Director Policy Planning at the US State Department. Wow!

Will it be unfair to ask the question: how many military and intelligence decision-makers inside Afghanistan may be possessed by the demons of Krasner? And lets not forget, this warmonger professor from Stanford is just one of the many dozens of military officers, analysts, policy wonks and media pundits who have been continuously making a case for taking the Afghan war into Pakistans tribal areas. Is this not what most Pakistani military officers and defence analysts are claiming behind the scenes: that the Americans are deliberately pushing the war into Pakistans tribal areas?

On December 2, Julian Borger, the diplomatic editor of The Guardian, claimed in NATO plans push in eastern Afghanistan to quell Pakistan-based insurgents that NATO commanders are planning a substantial offensive aimed at insurgent groups based in Pakistan, involving an escalation of aerial strikes and have not ruled out cross-border raids with ground troops.

While The Guardian reports on the plans that were being made, the increasing chatter in Islamabad is that the attacks on Salala on November 26 were part of the same thinking and in fact were not done by NATO/ISAF proper but by the US Army Special Forces with access to gunships and air cover and that is why General Mattis has appointed Brigadier-General Stephen Clark, of the Special Forces, to investigate and that is why there will never be any unambiguous result of this investigation.

In February 2010, as President Obama completed his first year in the White House, I did a TV programme to assess his presidency. Prominent TV anchor, Talat Hussain, also joined in the discussion. While talking of Afghanistan he commented that from this point onwards Obamas fate is in the hands of these generals; now they will call the shots, they will determine what will happen.

Twenty-two months later, has Obama lost all control to his generals and to those he had defeated in the elections? Is he standing helpless facing all those who want to subvert his withdrawal plans? It is not a secret that on Afghanistan the whole administration is split; the Pentagon and the CIA are on one side and the US State Department on the other. Whereas diplomats of the whole world might be repeating ad nauseam  as they again did in Bonn this month  that Afghanistan has no military solution, it appears that the generals have their own visions of glory.

Einstein had once defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again in the hope of getting different results. The generals, oblivious of the history of this region and of their own performance over the past 10 years, are making the case in Washington that if only they can destroy the insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistani tribal areas, the outcome will be different. But will it?

Hypothetically speaking, if the American generals get the kind of absolute freedoms they crave, then the wily insurgents will quickly melt away further deeper into Pakistani territory, forcing the Americans to practically occupy the Pakistani tribal belt as a new kind of buffer zone bordering Afghanistan under their control. It will merely expand the geography of conflict, providing a temporary relief; the final outcome can be that Pakistan will have to defend its territory behind River Indus on the other side of Attock. The American generals, at this moment, are not concerned about these looming issues because their singular focus is on achieving results in the specific war theatre of Afghanistan. It is there that their performance is being judged; they are like blinkered horses but the White House does not enjoy this luxury. It has to look beyond.

The term AfPak coined during the late Holbrooke era has only added to this tunnel vision inside ISAF headquarters, in Washington, and to a lesser extent in London and Brussels. I once got the opportunity to protest to Anne Patterson, the then US ambassador to Pakistan, that how come you lump Pakistan with its 180 million population, large urban centres, massive agrarian economy, substantial industrial base, hundreds of universities and colleges, large military, nuclear posture and space satellites with a tribal society of 25 million that has yet to enter the industrial age? The great realist that she is, she reflected, sighed and said that I do understand Pakistani reactions to AfPak but the argument in Washington is that our troops are in Afghanistan and this term helps to focus minds in Congress to sanction aid for the challenges in Pakistan.

Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) of our minds plays havoc; it shapes our consciousness and thus politics. This term AfPak, coined without much thought, and accepted by a naïve, disinterested and aid hungry political class in Islamabad, has been disastrous for Pakistan. Now perhaps in hindsight people will understand that AfPak in the American minds, in the minds of Congress and the CIA and above all in the minds of military commanders defines Pakistan exclusively from the lens of Afghanistan. US responsibilities are narrowly defined inside Afghanistan and Pakistan of 200 million is merely a means to an end. So what if their strategies for Afghanistan spell disaster for Pakistan; why should they care?

It is in this context that Pakistans standoff with the US after the border attack in Mohmand Agency assumes great significance not only for Pakistan but also for the US. Clearly defined and understood parameters of engagement will prevent the US and its allies from being sucked inadvertently into a large conflict of incalculable dimensions.

The Obama administration may never be able to bring out the whole facts of the aerial attacks on Pakistan but it will find out for itself what really happened. After overcoming its embarrassment, its foremost challenge now will be to mediate between Clinton and Panetta and to control the military mindset that sees victory in a narrowly defined way.

A word for Professor Stephen Krasner: I am so glad that I studied international relations at Columbia and not Stanford.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What a joke

---------- Post added at 07:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 AM ----------

What a joke

When Ramond Davis kills people in back of their spine its mistake
When 28 Soliders are killed by unprovoked attack its a mistake 

But its completely ok to jail a women who happened to be kidnapped because its justice and even if she did it in a mental state where her children were thought to be also kidnapped (who knows she was insane)

I think we had enough of US bull crap ... we need to setup proper airdefence and start patrolling our airspace like a sovereign nation does

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## Secur

*DG MO terms Nato attack 'pre-planned'
Updated 2 hours ago*


ISLAMABAD: Director General Military Operations Major General Ashfaq Nadeem Thursday termed the Nato airstrike in Mohmand Agency as a &#8220;pre-planned attack,&#8221; Geo News reported. 

Briefing the Senate Standing Committee on Defence which met under the chairmanship of Javed Ashraf Qazi, the DG MO said Nato officials gave wrong information to the Border Coordination Centre about the location of the operation. 

"The bunkers were specifically targeted and destroyed," Maj. Gen. Ashfaq Nadeem told the Senate body.

Nadeem added that terrorists hide inside ditches and cracks and not on mountain peaks which is where the check posts were located. 

The DG MO said the only confusion was if the attacks were the act of Special Forces or ISAF.

DG MO terms Nato attack 'pre-planned'

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## MiloMayor

F.O.X said:


> Hor lawo pangay . . .



I fell really sorry for the death of the soldiers. May their soul RIP.

Coming to the video, if Pakistan has stopped this double game,there would not have been the need for the above video


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## pakdefender

Secur said:


> *DG MO terms Nato attack 'pre-planned'
> Updated 2 hours ago*
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Director General Military Operations Major General Ashfaq Nadeem Thursday termed the Nato airstrike in Mohmand Agency as a pre-planned attack, Geo News reported.
> 
> Briefing the Senate Standing Committee on Defence which met under the chairmanship of Javed Ashraf Qazi, the DG MO said Nato officials gave wrong information to the Border Coordination Centre about the location of the operation.
> 
> "The bunkers were specifically targeted and destroyed," Maj. Gen. Ashfaq Nadeem told the Senate body.
> 
> Nadeem added that terrorists hide inside ditches and cracks and not on mountain peaks which is where the check posts were located.
> 
> The DG MO said the only confusion was if the attacks were the act of Special Forces or ISAF.
> 
> DG MO terms Nato attack 'pre-planned'



They are now telling it like it should be!!

This was indeed a deliberate and pre-planned attack done by the United States
Gald to see that supplies to American killers have remained shut and we have kicked off the process of getting them out of our country. It will take time but we have at least started the roll back of their ingress into our country


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## pakdefender

So according to this geo report amrekanon ki phat rahi ha afghanistan mein as a result of this blockage operations have come to a stand still!! 

This will not stop here ... the image of the 24 coffins draped in Pakistani flag will stay with us and we will do everything in our capacity to inflict upon the perpetrators as much loss as they have done on us!!


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## bdslph

good no need of restorations of the posts a of now


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## 53fd

*NATO attack part of &#8216;plot&#8217;: Pakistan*



> * Army says NATO misguided Pakistan on attack
> 
> * Firing continued till destruction of posts
> 
> * Terrorists live in caves, not mountain-tops
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) Major General Ashfaq Nadeem said on Thursday that attack on Salala checkposts was part of a &#8216;plot&#8217; and a pre-planned move as the NATO helicopters continued firing till complete destruction of both the posts.
> 
> Briefing the Senate Committee for Defence at the Parliament House on Thursday, he said that the Pakistan Army had established additional posts in the area to ensure the safety of the country.
> 
> The DGMO said that when NATO copters attacked Pakistani checkposts, immediately US Embassy and Afghanistan were contacted, however, no positive response received from both sides. &#8220;Pakistan was misguided at Border Coordination Centre as NATO attacked on Salalah post but it was told that attack was conducted on Balkoni post,&#8221; he said.
> 
> He said the terrorists were not present on the mountains top but they were hidden in caves and homes. It was a well-planned action as the NATO forces simultaneously attacked the Pakistan Army posts as well as hideouts of terrorists.
> 
> He said the Pakistan Army had evolved a strategy that teeth broken reply would be given on any such type of action in the future.
> 
> After the meeting, Standing Committee Chairman Lt Gen (r) Javed Ashraf Qazi told the media that the army officials gave detailed briefing on the NATO attack. He said that all the facts revealed that the attack was a deliberate act. agencies



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## Jango

STRIKES RECALLED: Explaining the sequence of events, he said a post code-named Volcano was first attacked by two helicopter gunships at 12.15am on Nov 26. A nearby check post, code-named Boulder, hit back with 12.7mm anti-aircraft weapons and mortars after the Volcano check post was attacked.

He said the General Headquarters came to know about the incident at 12.35am. Subsequently, check post Boulder also came under attack and all communication was lost with both checkposts. But minutes before the disruption, Company commander Major Mujahid left for the Volcano and Boulder posts for an assessment of the situation. Unfortunately, the officer lost his life after the helicopters re-engaged.

Another officer sent later saved his life by sheltering in a bunker when he saw helicopters taking position again. He said the entire operation lasted almost two hours.

Gen Nadeem said the two posts were located at a place from where there had been no cross-border infiltration, although militant attacks from the other side had been frequent.

The two check posts, he maintained, could not be mistaken for militant havens as the other side had been given all information about the number of Pakistani posts and their locations. The men at the posts were uniformed and positions were well-defined.
The DGMO further said the Pakistan Army believed that Nato was monitoring the transmissions that night and knew they had hit Volcano checkpost.

DECEPTION: He said misleading information was provided to the Pakistan military from the outset. Just before the Nov 26 strike, a Pakistani officer at the regional tactical centre was informed by an American sergeant that their special forces had received indirect fire from Gora Pai, some 15 kilometres from Volcano post. And after seven minutes, a woman officer informed him that the fire had, in fact, come from Volcano, which had been hit in retaliation.

&#8220;It is not the first incident of its kind and in recent years it already has happened thrice.&#8221;

In reply to a question, Gen Nadeem said joint investigations had been carried out in the past as well, but vital information that could have helped reach a conclusion was never shared.

Alamgir Babar, an additional secretary at the Foreign Office, also attended the briefing.

Afghan border to get air defence weapons | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

These are the words of the DGMO. Pretty clear to me that who was at fault. Looks like the ISAF does not even know hoe to read maps!

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## Al Bhatti




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## Bratva

*Piecing together the events*

The DGMO said a US sergeant at the Nawra coordination centre informed a Pakistani officer that they had noticed fire coming from the Pakistani side, from the Gora Pari area.

&#8220;This was a move to deceive the Pakistani troops as the check post was located 15 kilometres away from the two check posts that were attacked later on,&#8221; Nadeem is said to have told the committee.

Apparently, he went on, while Pakistani troops were focusing on that complaint, US helicopters attacked well-marked check posts, which are located on a high mountainous terrain in an area where there is no civilian population &#8212; therefore, according to the DGMO, ruling out any possibility that the attack was carried out in pursuit of militants hiding in the area. He added that the two check posts were set up in September 2011 and their maps were exchanged with the US.

&#8220;The first attack was carried out at 12:15am and all communications were blocked. After the first attack they returned and conducted a second attack. The whole operation was completed in two hours,&#8221; he said. GHQ knew about the attack by 12:35am and informed officials and their counterparts.

&#8220;Keep in mind that all this happened in the middle of the night and our troops were killed in cold blood,&#8221; Nadeem is quoted as having said.

Suspicion grows

The DGMO told cabinet members that Isaf commander General Allen was in Pakistan on the day of the incident. &#8220;He was discussing with us how to resume tripartite talks and he had been proposing the meeting in the third week of December that evening. The next morning, when we asked him about the attack, he said he was completely unaware.&#8221;
In Nadeem&#8217;s view, this gives the impression that the CIA and US special forces conduct certain operations on their own &#8211; keeping Isaf in the dark.

When asked about Pakistan&#8217;s refusal to be part of joint investigations, he said in three such incidents in the past Pakistan fully cooperated, but these efforts did not bear fruit. &#8220;Because of mistrust created due to three previous incidents we have decided to stay away from such investigations,&#8221; Nadeem said.
&#8216;US spies unwelcome in Pakistan&#8217;
Earlier, briefing the federal cabinet on the airstrikes, Nadeem is quoted as having said that Pakistan would no longer allow the presence of US intelligence operators.
Pakistan, it seems, does not want to completely shun cooperation with the US in the &#8216;war on terror&#8217;, but plans to reduce the &#8220;direct and independent&#8221; operations of the CIA inside the country to a &#8220;minimum&#8221; level, a top military official said.
The DGMO told the meeting that several hundred individuals with direct or indirect links to the CIA had already been expelled from Pakistan since the secret raid by US Navy Seals in May which killed Osama bin Laden. The exact number of CIA operatives who flew out of Pakistan after the midnight raid in Abbottabad is not known,* though conservative estimates put the number at more than 500.*

An intelligence official told The Express Tribune last week that the army wanted the US and Nato to rely on the information provided by Pakistan, instead of running their own underground networks.

Cabinet and Senate briefings:


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## Devil Soul

*Terrorist safe-havens in Pakistan; Nato attack not deliberate: Dempsey*

Updated 10 minutes ago

WASHINGTON: The head of US Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey said there are terrorist safe-havens in Pakistan, Geo News reported. 

The US general further said that the Nato attack in Mohamand Agency was not deliberate. 

Dempsey added that the US had achieved its military targets in Afghanistan and was considering asking its allies to do more.

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## bdslph

what kind of achievement did he do in Afghanistan instead he screwed it up more


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## Safriz

[video]http://www.kalam.tv/ur/video/96667/index.html[/video]

One litre of fuel costing 10,000 PKR to NATO
or 110 USD

and yet they prefer to sit on their high chair refusing to admit their fault and apologize..
well good luck or rather bad luck with that.


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## pakdefender

Devil Soul said:


> *Terrorist safe-havens in Pakistan; Nato attack not deliberate: Dempsey*
> 
> Updated 10 minutes ago
> 
> WASHINGTON: The head of US Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey said there are terrorist safe-havens in Pakistan, Geo News reported.
> 
> The US general further said that the Nato attack in Mohamand Agency was not deliberate.
> 
> Dempsey added that the US had achieved its military targets in Afghanistan and was considering asking its allies to do more.



bugger all Americans have 'achieved' in the last 10 years .. they have wasted billions of dollars and have flushed down 6000+ service men and women down the toilet ( out of these 200+ servicemen have LITERALLY been flushed down the toilet ) what 'achievement' this offspring of the jack bastards talking about ?!?
This US general needs to shut his bloody trap!! , the biggest terrorist safe havens are the american bases in Afghanistan ... in suar kay bachon ki jab tak khal atray gi nahin in ki bakwas band nahin ho gi!
Here&#8217;s to utter and complete strangulation of terrorist US forces in Afghanistan!! Ameen!


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## Safriz

Sri Lanka : Sri Lankans display solidarity with Pakistan against NATO attack



Dec 09, Colombo: Thousands of Sri Lankans gathered in Colombo on Friday after the Jumma prayers to condemn the actions of NATO/US-ISAF coalition and to denounce the unprovoked attacks of last month that resulted in the deaths of over two-dozen Pakistani soldiers.

The Sri Lanka Pakistan Friendship Association along with Pakistani community in Sri Lanka organized a peaceful demonstration today outside the Devatagagha Mosque in Town Hall, Colombo to protest against the recent NATO attack on Pakistan's military check posts on Afghanistan border.

---------- Post added at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------

Pakistan truckers back NATO supply route blockade - CBS News

Even truckers back pakistan's decission..well done

AP) CHAMAN, Pakistan &#8212; Sleeping in a freezing cab, running out of money and worried about militant attacks, Ghulab is one of thousands of truck drivers stranded as a result of Pakistan's blockade of the Afghan border to NATO and U.S. war supplies.

But they and the businessmen who run what has been a lucrative trade for most of the last decade say they support the decision to shut the frontier in retaliation for coalition airstrikes almost two weeks ago that killed 24 Pakistani troops in two remote border outposts.

"We risk our lives and take these supplies to Afghanistan for NATO, and in return they are killing our soldiers," said Jan, whose fuel truck is parked in a terminal in the dusty, dangerous border town of Chaman in southwestern Baluchistan.

"This is unacceptable, and we unanimously support the government over closing the border."

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## Bharthi

Why is Pakistan not permanently blocking NATO supply route?


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## Jango

Bharthi said:


> Why is Pakistan not permanently blocking NATO supply route?



Have they opened yet? No. So, when they open, then come here.

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## 53fd

Devil Soul said:


> *Terrorist safe-havens in Pakistan; Nato attack not deliberate: Dempsey*
> 
> Updated 10 minutes ago
> 
> WASHINGTON: The head of US Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey said there are terrorist safe-havens in Pakistan, Geo News reported.
> 
> The US general further said that the Nato attack in Mohamand Agency was not deliberate.
> 
> Dempsey added that the US had achieved its military targets in Afghanistan and was considering asking its allies to do more.



It's funny Gen Dempsey is already coming up with the conclusions, even though the US & NATO investigations are ongoing & will be completed in the third week of December.


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## Jango

He is saying as if Afghanistan is completely free of terror havens!!!

Apnay girahban main jhank kar dekho!

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## regular

Devil Soul said:


> *Terrorist safe-havens in Pakistan; Nato attack not deliberate: Dempsey*
> 
> Updated 10 minutes ago
> 
> WASHINGTON: The head of US Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey said there are terrorist safe-havens in Pakistan, Geo News reported.
> 
> The US general further said that the Nato attack in Mohamand Agency was not deliberate.
> 
> Dempsey added that the US had achieved its military targets in Afghanistan and was considering asking its allies to do more.


Hey! With great respect and regardz to the great honorable US Gen. Dampsey.....Shutt the fkkkup and go to hell for lying so much against our peaceful country and its peaceful residents......just go and cleanup ure own created mess in Afghanistan and don't talk so much.Don't make our Army soldierz come and kikk ure @$$$ real good for what U did to our poor innocent soldierz/officerz who trusted their lives on U guyz.....

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## Saleem

QUETTA: All equipment belonging to US officials has been vacated from the Shamsi air base and five drones have been shifted to Afghanistan and other locations, Geo News reported.

*It is expected that UAE officials will take control of the air base from Saturday.
*
According to sources American barracks at the base have also been destroyed and FIA officials are present to check the immigration of US citizens.

The Americans had also increased the runway of the air base in order to allow the landing of large aircrafts. 

US equipment vacated from Shamsi air base
*
So Just remind me again whose territory is this "landing strip" supposed to be on?*


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## Safriz

Upping ante, Pakistan boosts air defenses along Afghan border - The Washington Post


&#8220;It became very embarrassing for our troops. They were killed like sitting ducks,&#8221; he said, adding that the decision had been taken in response to pressure from the troops themselves. &#8220;If there is another attack, they should have something to defend themselves.&#8221;

&#8220;The field commanders have been provided with surface-to-air missiles that can be fired from the shoulder,&#8221;


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## VelocuR

*NATO airstrikes: Gilani gives nod to detrimental response over future incursions *

ISLAMABAD: With reports confirming the upgrading of Pakistans air defence along its border with Afghanistan, the prime minister on Friday struck a forewarning tone with the US. 

Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani warned the US and its Nato allies on Friday that any future cross-border attack would *meet with a detrimental response.* 

Gilani made the comments while meeting Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the prime ministers secretariat said in a statement.

The democratic government will not allow similar attacks on the countrys sovereignty and any attempt in the future will definitely meet with the detrimental response, Gilani said, referring to a cross-border Nato air strike last month which killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, which dragged US-Pakistani relations to plunge to a new low.

Pakistani security officials earlier said they had upgraded the air defence system on the Afghan border to make it capable of shooting down aircraft. Now we have a fully equipped air defence system on the Afghan border. It has the capability to trace and detect any aircraft, an official in Peshawar told AFP.

*The system has also been upgraded to immediately respond after detecting any aircraft or helicopter and to shoot it down,* the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, added.

*Meanwhile, Kayani informed the prime minister of the steps taken on the western borders to revamp defence capabilities aimed at effectively countering any future incursion into Pakistani territory.

The government and the people of Pakistan were ready to provide the armed forces all the necessary resources to bolster its defence and professional capabilities,* Gilani said.

US response

While declining to comment about Pakistans decision to ramp up its air defense on the Pak-Afghan border, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Media Affairs Captain John F Kirby said that it was a decision made by Pakistan and they would not respond to it.

However, Captain Kirby said that the US continued to want to have a coordination and cooperation system with Pakistan. We understand were in a rough relationship with Pakistan in the wake of the incident, he told The Express Tribune, saying that they are very sincere about fully investigating the incident. He added that the US was working hard on the military-to-military relationship.

Pakistan shut its border to Nato supply convoys on November 26, hours after the deadliest single cross-border attack of the 10-year war in Afghanistan.

The government also ordered the US to leave the Shamsi Air Base in the southwest, widely reported to be a hub in the covert CIA drone war against the Taliban and al Qaeda.

Pakistan gave tacit support to the programme, but no US drone strike has been reported on Pakistani soil since November 17.

(WITH ADDITIONAL REPORTING BY HUMA IMTIAZ IN WASHINGTON)

Published in The Express Tribune, December 10th, 2011.

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## VelocuR

*Closing NATO routes tells a lot about US-Pakistan relationship: General Dempsey*

WASHINGTON: Dubbing the current state of US-Pakistan relations as &#8220;strained&#8221;, US Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey reiterated that the US did not deliberately attack the Pakistani border post on November 26. *He added that closing supply routes said a lot about the US relationship with Pakistan.*

In an event organised by the think-tank Atlantic Council, General Dempsey said that it was regrettable that Pakistan&#8217;s military thought that the attack on the border post was intentional. &#8220;They believe we did this intentionally, in some way or the other to discredit them or to goad them into further action.&#8221; He said it was incomprehensible for him that Pakistan believed that, based on the United States&#8217; efforts to build the relationship over time. *&#8220;If you think we did, I have to ask, what in the world would we hope to gain from doing this.&#8221; General Dempsey said, &#8220;As I sit here today, I don&#8217;t know what happened in the NATO airstrike.&#8221;*

*Recalling that General Kayani and him were batch mates at Fort Leavenworth, he said that he had spoken to him after the NATO airstrikes, and other US officials had also been in touch with their Pakistani counterparts.*

In response to a question posed by David Ignatius, a Washington Post columnist and moderator of the event on the closure of the supply routes by Pakistan, General Dempsey said that the US could work out how to send supplies in Afghanistan through other options, which included via air and other countries. He added that they could adjust the supply routes for NATO, but said it would be more expensive.
*
&#8220;The real problem for me is not the cost&#8230;what&#8217;s troubling to me is that Pakistan would close the routes and what it says about the relationship&#8230;and we need to try and get through that,&#8221; *General Dempsey said.

Alluding to the torching of NATO oil tankers, the US military chief said the US does not pay for the fuel until it gets delivered. He said there was a need to understand what was going on.

In response to another question, he said sanctuaries for insurgents persisted in Pakistan, and that the US needed to control their influence in Afghanistan. He also added that he believed that the military aspects of the surge in Afghanistan have achieved their purpose.

 Just ignore him and he didn't know what he is talking about.


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## regular

If Ge. Dampsey says that he don't know why the attacked has been carried out by his forces on the poor soldiers of Pakistan then he is a damn stpid fellow. He sholdn't be staying at his post then.....

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## pakdefender

Enemies of Pakistan indeed come in many forms and colours , be is Micheal Waltz ( works for http://newamerica.net/ run by Jews ) be it Daud Khattack (gets his pay check from http://www.rferl.org ) or be it this niazifighter , a terrorist sympathizer .. all harbour the same ill will against Pakistan which is quite obvious

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## Awesome

After the DGMO officially declared this a deliberate act on the part of Nato, its beginning to abandon all pretenses of condolences and regret. The tone is again belligerent and it is my guess another deliberate high profile incident is on the cards.

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## Safriz

Pakistan army believes NATO attack planned: reports | Reuters


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## pakdefender

The attack was deliberate , there is no doubt about it


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## bdslph

no excuse clear all you mind read the articles and see through everything 

you will see it was dont on purpose they wanted a war and i wont be surprised if it was CIA who made this idea


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

I repeat, the only excuses the US has are 'complete incompetence or complete collusion'.

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## unicorn

Pakistan is allowing USA and NATO to use our air space completely free. Pakistan should charge them and use the money for WOT in Pakistan.


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## Xracer

unicorn said:


> Pakistan is allowing USA and NATO to use our air space completely free. Pakistan should charge them and use the money for WOT in Pakistan.


Shamsi airbase vacated; Defence Ministry to take control
QUETTA: Defence Ministry will be taking the control of Shamsi airbase from Sunday, as US officials have vacated the facility on the orders of Pakistan government following the Nato strikes that killed at least 24 Pak army soldiers in November.

According to security sources, the officials of Civil Aviation Authority, Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Interior are present at Shamsi airbase.

The decision on whether to hand over the airbase to UAE will be taken later on, the sources added. 
Shamsi airbase vacated; Defence Ministry to take control


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## Jango

There you are folks.

The last of the yanks going.











---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------

The hangar with the round door often shown on google earth images is very well visible there.

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ----------

look at the blast containment walls there right beside the hangar on the leftmost of the first picture.

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## regular

bdslph said:


> no excuse clear all you mind read the articles and see through everything
> 
> you will see it was dont on purpose they wanted a war and i wont be surprised if it was CIA who made this idea


Sir! It is not If but infact the CIAz plot to make a delibrate attack to provoke our Army to start a War.....and they are pretty successful in their war plans but we will see what is their next try.Eventually they gonna get trapped within their own game...Insha-Allah!.....


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## Mav3rick

regular said:


> Sir! It is not If but infact the CIAz plot to make a delibrate attack to provoke our Army to start a War.....and they are pretty successful in their war plans but we will see what is their next try.Eventually they gonna get trapped within their own game...Insha-Allah!.....


 
"They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah" - Al-Anfal (8:30)


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## Al Bhatti

26/11/2011

Prince Harry's First Apache Mission Over Pakistan a Success

BAIZAI - Pakistan - Prince Harry has successfully carried out his first mission in the Afghan border region killing up to 28 Pakistani soldiers, reports have confirmed.

Speaking from his base, the proud prince said: "I bagged a load of p*kis today. My trigger finger just kept pumping those bastards into oblivion. It was ******* beautiful."

"My step-dad was a Muslim so I just wanted to give something back to the ragheads, like a few 50 caliber bullets, innit," Harry added.

Prince Harry even took time to go for a round of drinks before his first mission, and was said to have downed a jug of vodka, three pints of gin and sixteen bottles of lager.

"I've never seen flying like that. He swooped so low you could see the whites in the eyes of the terrified Pakistanis. It was like shooting fish in a barrel," Harry's co-pilot, flight lieutenant, Richard Moorcroft, told the Telegraph.

Prince Harry was meant to be greeted by his father as he returned from his first mission. However, James Hewitt was not available, so Prince Charles was sent instead. 

Prince Harry's First Apache Mission Over Pakistan a Success


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## Awesome

Al Bhatti said:


> 26/11/2011
> 
> Prince Harry's First Apache Mission Over Pakistan a Success
> 
> BAIZAI - Pakistan - Prince Harry has successfully carried out his first mission in the Afghan border region killing up to 28 Pakistani soldiers, reports have confirmed.
> 
> Speaking from his base, the proud prince said: "I bagged a load of p*kis today. My trigger finger just kept pumping those bastards into oblivion. It was ******* beautiful."
> 
> "My step-dad was a Muslim so I just wanted to give something back to the ragheads, like a few 50 caliber bullets, innit," Harry added.
> 
> Prince Harry even took time to go for a round of drinks before his first mission, and was said to have downed a jug of vodka, three pints of gin and sixteen bottles of lager.
> 
> "I've never seen flying like that. He swooped so low you could see the whites in the eyes of the terrified Pakistanis. It was like shooting fish in a barrel," Harry's co-pilot, flight lieutenant, Richard Moorcroft, told the Telegraph.
> 
> Prince Harry was meant to be greeted by his father as he returned from his first mission. However, James Hewitt was not available, so Prince Charles was sent instead.
> 
> Prince Harry's First Apache Mission Over Pakistan a Success *



It's daily squib Google News marks this website as Satire. Still it should be reported for being ghastly crude.


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## Irfan Baloch

Asim Aquil said:


> It's daily squib Google News marks this website as Satire. Still it should be reported for being ghastly crude.



prince is known for his nonPC comments like his grand father. indeed it is crude and written by someone with a yardie lingo and is infact a swipe at the price as well at the expense of the dead.

only someone in UK who has a special hatred for Asians like BNP guy will do that or someone with special hatred for Pakistanis. although the word p@ki itself is used by BNP to describe Indians too whether they like it or admit it or not.
there was a BBC documentry on 3 BNP members some time ago where one disabled white mother decided to join BNP because she was not happy with so many Asians in Leeds. she said she doesnt care if they are Indians, Bangalis Sri Lankens or whatever for her they are all P@k1s


that aside, the Americans wont risk sending the prince on this mission.


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## Safriz

Pakistan Military Says U.S. Ignored Warnings in Border Attack - Businessweek

The NATO-led coalition in Afghanistan couldn&#8217;t have confused known Pakistani border posts with militant positions and started the mission without waiting for a response on whether any friendly forces were in the area, a Pakistani defense official told reporters at his embassy in Washington today.
*
The bombardment also continued for more than an hour after a coalition commander said the aircraft had been ordered to withdraw,* the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pakistani officials say NATO officer apologized, but kept firing on Pakistani border posts - The Washington Post

WASHINGTON &#8212; Pakistani officials say U.S. forces knew they were opening fire on Pakistani forces, _a*nd even apologized to Pakistani officers, throughout the friendly fire incident* _that killed 24 Pakistani troops near the Afghan border in November.

wow thats height of irresponsibility......oh we are sorry...but we have to kill you..


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## SSGPA1

What is next? How long is this situation going to continue for? Pakistan and the US need each other as allies which means that sooner or later the borders will re-open. Pakistan Army and the GoP MUST take every day Pakistanis on board before resuming ties.

In order to satisfy the nation, some major CBMs will be required from Pakistan and the US. Here is my list:

1. A statement by the UN Security Council condemning this act of aggression against Pakistan.
2. An official apology from the US.
3. A written assurance from the US that such an action will never take place again.
4. Proper recognition of the shaheeds and injured by the GoP and Pakistan Army.
5. Financial compensation to the families of shaheeds and injured by the GoP and Pakistan Army.
6. Recognition of the international border by the Afghan regime. This will close the Durand Line issue for good. 
7. FULL Payment of money owed by the US for WoT. This is not aid but the expenses of Pakistan which are due on the US govt.

So far the GoP is doing well with support from Pakistan Army and if they continue to withstand the US pressure then the above mentioned goals are attainable.

May Allah bless Pakistan, ameen. 

PAKISTAN FIRST!!


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## Awesome

SSGPA1 said:


> What is next? How long is this situation going to continue for? Pakistan and the US need each other as allies which means that sooner or later the borders will re-open. Pakistan Army and the GoP MUST take every day Pakistanis on board before resuming ties.
> 
> In order to satisfy the nation, some major CBMs will be required from Pakistan and the US. Here is my list:
> 
> 1. A statement by the UN Security Council condemning this act of aggression against Pakistan.
> 2. An official apology from the US.
> 3. A written assurance from the US that such an action will never take place again.
> 4. Proper recognition of the shaheeds and injured by the GoP and Pakistan Army.
> 5. Financial compensation to the families of shaheeds and injured by the GoP and Pakistan Army.
> 6. Recognition of the international border by the Afghan regime. This will close the Durand Line issue for good.
> 7. FULL Payment of money owed by the US for WoT. This is not aid but the expenses of Pakistan which are due on the US govt.
> 
> So far the GoP is doing well with support from Pakistan Army and if they continue to withstand the US pressure then the above mentioned goals are attainable.
> 
> May Allah bless Pakistan, ameen.
> 
> PAKISTAN FIRST!!



I would add, first the US president has to reverse his earlier statement that this attack was not deliberate. Fess up, that it was deliberate - and then say sorry for carrying out Anti-Pakistan designs and it will never happen again.

In any case, drone and chopper attacks can't continue no matter what and must be shot down if the US sends them across the border.

On the flipside this situation still has plenty of room to get worse and lets put those on the table too:

1. Closure of airspace
2. Shooting at US aircraft flying over out territory
3. Expelling US mission from Pakistan
4. Shooting missiles at US bases in Afghanistan

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## BATMAN

The more i read into the facts... the more i see how Pakistan's parliament & judiciary is infested and influenced by anti state elements.

Now you have solid proof.. in past our foreign secretary and minsiters use to say there is no solid proof.

I know end game has begun and all traitors will have classic 'shoot the shooter' end.

2012 can see a nuclear war, over the evidence that it was actually the forces in Afghanistan who had been involved in all terrorist activities against Pakistan.

The aggrieved families will not forgive and forget.

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## Developereo

SSGPA1 said:


> Pakistan and the US need each other as allies



I can't believe people still believe this.

US interests in the region are 100% opposed to Pakistan; weakening Pakistan is a core American interest in this region.



SSGPA1 said:


> which means that sooner or later the borders will re-open.



No, they don't. Permanent means permanent.



SSGPA1 said:


> Pakistan Army and the GoP MUST take every day Pakistanis on board before resuming ties.
> 
> In order to satisfy the nation, some major CBMs will be required from Pakistan and the US. Here is my list:
> 
> 1. A statement by the UN Security Council condemning this act of aggression against Pakistan.
> 2. An official apology from the US.
> 3. A written assurance from the US that such an action will never take place again.
> 4. Proper recognition of the shaheeds and injured by the GoP and Pakistan Army.
> 5. Financial compensation to the families of shaheeds and injured by the GoP and Pakistan Army.
> 6. Recognition of the international border by the Afghan regime. This will close the Durand Line issue for good.
> 7. FULL Payment of money owed by the US for WoT. This is not aid but the expenses of Pakistan which are due on the US govt.
> 
> So far the GoP is doing well with support from Pakistan Army and if they continue to withstand the US pressure then the above mentioned goals are attainable.
> 
> May Allah bless Pakistan, ameen.
> 
> PAKISTAN FIRST!!



Your 'demands' essentially boil down to some silly consolation 'apology', a meaningless 'guarantee' that no one can give, and a bunch of $$$ to sweeten the deal.

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## BATMAN

Awww! No Fried Chicken For US Soldiers In Afghanistan?

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## Safriz

US media briefed about &#8216;deliberate&#8217; Nato raid | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


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## BATMAN

It is sad to see that Pakistan have failed to seal its borders completely... otherwise such posters would have been all over Kabul.


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## Riz

BATMAN said:


> It is sad to see that Pakistan have failed to seal its borders completely... otherwise such posters would have been all over Kabul.


 
we are not servent of Nato, this is not our responcebility to protect your army in afghanistan, why not you protect your side ? War is not so easy mate, expect a rocket from your apponent if you fire a bulet on them... i can't be surprise if yesterday pant gone will come up with logic that pak army should block the wind because it contain oxigen for the taliban side....lol


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## VCheng

Developereo said:


> .....................................
> 
> Your 'demands' essentially boil down to some silly *consolation 'apology', a meaningless 'guarantee'* that no one can give, *and a bunch of $$$ to sweeten the deal*.






....................... and yet all of that will likely be portrayed as a great "moral" win after all of those are accepted gradually.


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## Developereo

VCheng said:


> ....................... and yet all of that will likely be portrayed as a great "moral" win after all of those are accepted gradually.



Yes, it's a mess. There's no good way out of this. No winners on any side.

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## araz

Developereo said:


> Yes, it's a mess. There's no good way out of this. No winners on any side.



A grand review of pakistani strategy towards the Afghan war and its sincere implementation would be a grand victory for Pakistan.For one thing it might reduce the number of suicide attacks within the country. The other off shoot may be calm in the society(but then i ask too much!!!)which hopefully might give the government a chance to solve the more pressing issues such as water electricity and economy.
Araz

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## VCheng

from: Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - US says it understands Pakistan&#8217;s concerns on 26/11 tragedy, pledges credible probe

*US says it understands Pakistan&#8217;s concerns on 26/11 tragedy, pledges credible probe* 

WASHINGTON, Dec 16 (APP): While acknowledging Pakistan&#8217;s concerns following the loss of 24 soldiers in November 26 NATO strikes on Mohmand border posts,* a senior Obama Administration official pledged a &#8220;transparent and credible&#8221; investigation into the incident to determine exactly what happened. &#8220;We have been in constant and intense dialogue with our Pakistani counterparts. We understand the concern.* Frankly, there is plenty of concern on the American side as well,&#8221; State Department spokesperson Victoria Nuland said at the daily briefing. *The spokesperson was asked if Washington understood the profound sense of anger in Pakistan over the attacks.*

Nuland was responding to a series of questions from jounralists in the light of an off-camera briefing held by the Pakistani Embassy in Washington on the Mohmand border incident, which threw the U.S.-Pakistan relationship into a crisis. 

*The Pakistani officials constructed a timeline of the incident in the briefing and presented their perspective of the events that took place, during the NATO strikes about three weeks ago. They also pointed out that the strikes continued despite their communication to NATO that it were the Pakistani soldiers and not militants who were being targeted.*

At the State Department briefing, the spokesperson said she would not get ahead of the CENTCOM investigation, currently under way, to determine what exactly happened on the night of November 26, when two Pakistani posts in Mohmand tribal area along the Afghan border, came under NATO attacks, which according to Pakistani officials continued for about two hours.

*&#8220;When this tragic incident happened, you know that every senior American called every senior Pakistani, from the President to the Secretary on down, to express our condolences and to pledge a full, transparent investigation. So we are doing that investigation now.&#8221;*

In the aftermath of the incident, Pakistan - considered key to successful outcome of the decade-old Afghan war- closed two NATO supplies routes that course into landlocked Afghanistan and declined to take part in the investigation, saying the incident was a repeat of such attacks on the country&#8217;s sovereignty in the past. Nuland said the U.S. still remains open to Pakistani participation in the investigation.

*&#8220;We also are very firmly committed to understanding what happened here because - you were right - we have had, in the past, similar difficulties coordinating and communicating on the border. And we&#8217;ve got to get to the bottom of what happened, we&#8217;ve got to learn lessons, because, frankly, we need to continue to cooperate here.*

&#8220;We can&#8217;t either of us - Pakistan, the United States,or Afghanistan, frankly - allow these areas to remain safe havens for terrorists or for Taliban. So we&#8217;ve got to work this out, and that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re committed to doing.&#8221; *The spokesperson said she is not going to prejudge this report &#8220;until it is out and until we&#8217;ve had a chance to talk to the Pakistanis about it, work with them on it, and learn lessons from it, and improve procedures as a result of it.&#8221;*

*Questioned if the U.S. would hold people accountable for the incident, which never should have happened, the spokesperson replied: &#8220;You&#8217;re asking me to get ahead of an investigation report, which has not been released. But the idea is to investigate this fully, investigate it transparently, investigate it credibly, and then work with Afghanistan, Pakistan, ISAF to ensure that we learn the lessons and take it from there. So I don&#8217;t want to prejudge either what&#8217;s in the report or what the recommendations will be for improving the situation in any of the ways that you discussed until the report is out.&#8221; *


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## SSGPA1

Developereo said:


> I can't believe people still believe this.
> US interests in the region are 100% opposed to Pakistan; weakening Pakistan is a core American interest in this region.



US and Pakistan need each other despite the fact that majority, not all, of interests are in opposite directions. China or Russia will not import our goods. They can't influence the donoir agencies like the US either. Now don't start with our coal reserves etc because they are no good until we have the infrastructure. 



Developereo said:


> No, they don't. Permanent means permanent.



May be on Mars, in global diplomacy nothing is permanent. Pakistan will open it's border.



Developereo said:


> Your 'demands' essentially boil down to some silly consolation 'apology', a meaningless 'guarantee' that no one can give, and a bunch of $$$ to sweeten the deal.




Read my comments again _'Pakistan Army and the GoP MUST take every day Pakistanis on board before resuming ties.

In order to satisfy the nation, some major CBMs will be required from Pakistan and the US.'_ Let me break it down for you:

Pakistan will have to resume ties, therefore, take Pakistanis on board before resuming ties. In order to have the nation accept such decissions, some CBMs will need to take place so that some sense of achievement and some real gain can take place.

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## Developereo

araz said:


> A grand review of pakistani strategy towards the Afghan war and its sincere implementation would be a grand victory for Pakistan.



American policy of late is run by people who view Pakistan as the enemy in their great game. The mission in Afghanistan has nothing to do with WOT except in name; it is now a cover for US policy to install India as the regional hegemon and to weaken Pakistan.

The only question is how long Pakistani leaders will continue to help America destroy Pakistan's long term interests in exchange for short term bribes like a few dollars here and and a few F-16s there.



araz said:


> The other off shoot may be calm in the society(but then i ask too much!!!)



This is a failure of civil governance. Karachi's politico-gang wars have little to do with the WOT.



araz said:


> which hopefully might give the government a chance to solve the more pressing issues such as water electricity and economy.
> Araz



If I was a betting man, I would put my money on Obama delivering a personal apology before any of this happens.


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## Developereo

SSGPA1 said:


> US and Pakistan need each other despite the fact that majority, not all, of interests are in opposite directions. China or Russia will not import our goods. They can't influence the donoir agencies like the US either. Now don't start with our coal reserves etc because they are no good until we have the infrastructure.



Yes, America is the dominant power. But, as I wrote above, we have to accept the reality that their policy is being guided by people who view Pakistan squarely as the enemy.

All these economic realities will still be true even if the US launches another attack. At what point do you say enough is enough?

What do you do when the reigning hyperpower is dead set against you? Do you just keep taking the punishment?



SSGPA1 said:


> May be on Mars, in global diplomacy nothing is permanent. Pakistan will open it's border.



By 'border', we are talking about NATO supplies. As I wrote earlier, the US operation in Afghanistan has nothing to do with WOT; it's part of their great game. On 26/11, a handful of racist cowboys have given Pakistan a perfect excuse to exit this charade. And, the best part is, the government can hide behind 'democracy'.

The US exited Vietnam because of 'democratic' pressures; Pakistan can do likewise in the Afghan conflict. 



SSGPA1 said:


> Read my comments again _'Pakistan Army and the GoP MUST take every day Pakistanis on board before resuming ties.
> 
> In order to satisfy the nation, some major CBMs will be required from Pakistan and the US.'_ Let me break it down for you:
> 
> Pakistan will have to resume ties, therefore, take Pakistanis on board before resuming ties. In order to have the nation accept such decissions, some CBMs will need to take place so that some sense of achievement and some real gain can take place.



The 'guarantees' are not worth the paper they will be written on. American officials themselves said nothing can be guaranteed in a war zone.

Bottom line: I agree with your assessment that we can't antagonize the US openly, hence there is no active declaration of war on the US. But a passive gesture like withdrawing from the WOT is doable, especially when backed by broad democratic support.

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## mughaljee

how long we are can keep this route close ?


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## Saleem

you don't create "nations" by drawing lines in the dirt....

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## Ras

Developereo said:


> If I was a betting man, I would put my money on Obama delivering a personal apology before any of this happens.



You would lose..Obama cannot afford to apologize to anyone..especially Pakistan in an election year. On the contrary I would expect a hardening of attitude next year in the lead up to the presidential election.


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## Sugarcane

Ras said:


> You would lose..*Obama cannot afford to apologize to anyone..especially Pakistan in an election year*. On the contrary I would expect a hardening of attitude next year in the lead up to the presidential election.



Obama cannot afford means he will lose vote bank, In simple words he knows that majority of Americans will not like it (even if it's their fault .... not fault it's intentional act and cold blooded murder).

So - when Pakistanis generalize yankees and hate Americans than they are right

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## krash

Ras said:


> You would lose..Obama cannot afford to apologize to anyone..especially Pakistan in an election year. On the contrary I would expect a hardening of attitude next year in the lead up to the presidential election.



What President Obama cannot afford more is a further deterioration of the situation in Afghanistan and the whole operation being put in serious jeopardy.


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## Developereo

Ras said:


> You would lose..Obama cannot afford to apologize to anyone..especially Pakistan in an election year. On the contrary I would expect a hardening of attitude next year in the lead up to the presidential election.



You clearly missed my point.


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## Ras

Developereo said:


> You clearly missed my point.


 
Sorry about it..I never read the whole thread. Except the last few posts.

---------- Post added at 02:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 AM ----------




krash said:


> What President Obama cannot afford more is a further deterioration of the situation in Afghanistan and the whole operation being put in serious jeopardy.



I don't think the lack of a personal apology from Obama will put the NATO operation in Afghanistan in serious jeopardy.


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## krash

Ras said:


> Sorry about it..I never read the whole thread. Except the last few posts.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the lack of a personal apology from Obama will put the NATO operation in Afghanistan in serious jeopardy.



What it will do is not help relax the mood on the Pakistani side --> no talks --> no opening of the transit route --> serious problems for the the Afghan operation.


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## idune

yes there are some impact on tranport and other logistical business but is it really making economic impact on Pakistan? Besides, shouldn't this transit be permanently closed for sake of security and and future direction?

US propaganda machinery will increasingly employ domestic elements to amplify their scam.

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## Xeric

Ras said:


> I don't think the lack of a personal apology from Obama will put the NATO operation in Afghanistan in serious jeopardy.


Right,....right, so the 'do more' mantra was just a hoax?

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## Ras

Xeric said:


> Right,....right, so the 'do more' mantra was just a hoax?


 
Not a hoax..more of the hardening of attitudes as the election approaches. Expect more of the 
"do more mantra as we go on towards November 2012.


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## Knight_84

The american just fear loosing their own troops regardless of how many troops from other countries die in that process. Shoot and Scoot policy of uncle Sam.

With all their high tech gadgets and yet NATO forces cannot differentiate between foes and friends...... Its a crying shame....


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## Mav3rick

Ras said:


> Not a hoax..more of the hardening of attitudes as the election approaches. Expect more of the
> "do more mantra as we go on towards November 2012.


 
Any 'more' hardening of attitude should be greeted in a similar tone. That's how you speak to bullies, however as I know it my military and civilian leadership, in sharp contrast to public sentiment, will find a way to please the US.


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## Hellfire

krash said:


> *What it will do is not help relax the mood on the Pakistani side --> no talks --> no opening of the transit route --> serious problems for the the Afghan operation.*



Inspite of the transit route being closed for some time now the tempo of operations in afghanistan have not had major set backs contrary to beliefs held at the start of the whole scenario.


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## SQ8

hellfire said:


> Inspite of the transit route being closed for some time now *the tempo of operations in afghanistan have not had major set backs* contrary to beliefs held at the start of the whole scenario.



The cost of maintaining that tempo however... .has risen tenfold.


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## Irfan Baloch

hellfire said:


> Inspite of the transit route being closed for some time now the tempo of operations in afghanistan have not had major set backs contrary to beliefs held at the start of the whole scenario.



yes indeed if you believe in Fox, CNN and NATO press briefings as much as your religious text.
by this rule, taliban/ Haqqanis should have ceased to exist by now

but dont get me wrong my dear. I didnt mean to be snide, the Americans never stopped shooting civilians, there maybe more videos just waiting to be uploaded containing desecration of Quran or dead bodies. the bombing of fleeing civilians never stopped. 

the reason to block the supplies from Pakistan was not based on %ages. meaning how much is going through Pakistan and how much not. even if it was 1%, the reason to block was to protest and distance from this cooperation due to the incident. thats the most any weaker nation can do to a powerful one. Pakistan was not aiming at halting the NATO operations, its action was to stop its cooperation as a mark of protest.

if the American forces start treating the Afghan population as human beings then they wont need any more supplies from Pakistan or anywhere else.

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## LeGenD

idune said:


> yes there are some impact on tranport and other logistical business but is it really making economic impact on Pakistan? Besides, shouldn't this transit be permanently closed for sake of security and and future direction?


It has left thousands jobless; Closure of NATO supply routes leaves thousands of Pakistanis jobless | GlobalPost

This is in addition to losses to transport and related businesses.


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## Dalit

Instead of profiting from an illegitimate war Pakistan should learn to stand on its own feet. Jobs need to be created for the ordinary people, tax collected from the wealthy and trade instead of aid.


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