# Why Arabs Lose Wars



## Falcon29

de Atkine | Why Arabs Lose Wars

RABIC-SPEAKING ARMIES have been generally ineffective in the modern era. Egyptian regular forces did poorly against Yemeni irregulars in the 1960s. Syrians could only impose their will in Lebanon during the mid-1970s by the use of overwhelming weaponry and numbers. Iraqis showed ineptness against an Iranian military ripped apart by revolutionary turmoil in the 1980s and could not win a three-decades-long war against the Kurds. The Arab military performance on both sides of the 1990 Kuwait war was mediocre. And the Arabs have done poorly in nearly all the military confrontations with Israel. Why this unimpressive record? There are many factors — economic, ideological, technical — but perhaps the most important has to do with culture and certain societal attributes which inhibit Arabs from producing an effective military force.

*False starts*
*Including culture in strategic assessments has a poor legacy, for it has often been spun from an ugly brew of ignorance, wishful thinking, and mythology. Thus, the U.S. Army in the 1930s evaluated the Japanese national character as lacking originality and drew the unwarranted conclusion that that country would be permanently disadvantaged in technology. Hitler dismissed the United States as a mongrel society and consequently underestimated the impact of America’s entry into the war. American strategists assumed that the pain threshold of the North Vietnamese approximated our own and that the air bombardment of the North would bring it to its knees. Three days of aerial attacks were thought to be all the Serbs could withstand; in fact, seventy-eight days were needed.
As these examples suggest, when culture is considered in calculating the relative strengths and weaknesses of opposing forces, it tends to lead to wild distortions, especially when it is a matter of understanding why states unprepared for war enter into combat flushed with confidence. The temptation is to impute cultural attributes to the enemy state that negate its superior numbers or weaponry. Or the opposite: to view the potential enemy through the prism of one’s own cultural norms.

It is particularly dangerous to make facile assumptions about abilities in warfare based on past performance, for societies evolve and so does the military subculture with it. The dismal French performance in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war led the German high command to an overly optimistic assessment prior to World War I. Then tenacity and courage of French soldiers in World War I lead everyone from Winston Churchill to the German high command vastly to overestimate the French army’s fighting abilities. Israeli generals underestimated the Egyptian army of 1973 based on Egypt’s hapless performance in the 1967 war.

Culture is difficult to pin down. It is not synonymous with an individual’s race nor ethnic identity. The history of warfare makes a mockery of attempts to assign rigid cultural attributes to individuals — as the military histories of the Ottoman and Roman empires illustrate. In both cases it was training, discipline, esprit, and élan which made the difference, not the individual soldiers’ origin. The highly disciplined and effective Roman legions, for example, recruited from throughout the Roman Empire, and the elite Ottoman Janissaries (slave soldiers) were Christians forcibly recruited as boys from the Balkans.

The role of culture
These problems notwithstanding, culture does need to be taken into account. Indeed, awareness of prior mistakes should make it possible to assess the role of cultural factors in warfare. John Keegan, the eminent historian of warfare, argues that culture is a prime determinant of the nature of warfare. In contrast to the usual manner of European warfare, which he terms “face to face,” Keegan depicts the early Arab armies in the Islamic era as masters of evasion, delay, and indirection. Examining Arab warfare in this century leads to the conclusion that the Arabs remain more successful in insurgent, or political, warfare — what T. E. Lawrence termed “winning wars without battles.” Even the much-lauded Egyptian crossing of the Suez in 1973 at its core entailed a masterful deception plan. It may well be that these seemingly permanent attributes result from a culture that engenders subtlety, indirection, and dissimulation in personal relationships.

Along these lines, Kenneth Pollock concludes his exhaustive study of Arab military effectiveness by noting that “certain patterns of behavior fostered by the dominant Arab culture were the most important factors contributing to the limited military effectiveness of Arab armies and air forces from 1945 to 1991.” These attributes included over-centralization, discouraging initiative, lack of flexibility, manipulation of information, and the discouragement of leadership at the junior officer level. The barrage of criticism leveled at Samuel Huntington’s notion of a “clash of civilizations” in no way lessens the vital point he made — that however much the grouping of peoples by religion and culture rather than political or economic divisions offends academics who propound a world defined by class, race, and gender, it is a reality, one not diminished by modern communications.

But how does one integrate the study of culture into military training? At present, it has hardly any role. Paul M. Belbutowski, a scholar and former member of the U.S. Delta Force, succinctly stated a deficiency in our own military education system: “Culture, comprised of all that is vague and intangible, is not generally integrated into strategic planning except at the most superficial level.” And yet it is precisely “all that is vague and intangible” that defines low-intensity conflicts. The Vietnamese communists did not fight the war the United States had trained for, nor did the Chechens and Afghans fight the war the Russians prepared for. This entails far more than simply retooling weaponry and retraining soldiers. It requires an understanding of the cultural mythology, history, attitude toward time, etc.; and it demands a more substantial investment in time and money than a bureaucratic organization is likely to authorize.
Mindful of walking through a minefield of past errors and present cultural sensibilities, I offer some assessments of the role of culture in the military training of Arabic-speaking officers. I confine myself principally to training for two reasons:

• First, I observed much training but only one combat campaign (the Jordanian Army against the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1970).

• Secondly, armies fight as they train. Troops are conditioned by peacetime habits, policies, and procedures; they do not undergo a sudden metamorphosis that transforms civilians in uniform into warriors. General George Patton was fond of relating the story about Julius Caesar, who “in the winter time. . . so trained his legions in all that became soldiers and so habituated them to the proper performance of their duties, that when in the spring he committed them to battle against the Gauls, it was not necessary to give them orders, for they knew what to do and how to do it.” 

Information as power
In every society information is a means of making a living or wielding power, but Arabs husband information and hold it especially tightly. U.S. trainers have often been surprised over the years by the fact that information provided to key personnel does not get much further than them. Having learned to perform some complicated procedure, an Arab technician knows that he is invaluable so long as he is the only one in a unit to have that knowledge; once he dispenses it to others he no longer is the only font of knowledge and his power dissipates. This explains the commonplace hoarding of manuals, books, training pamphlets, and other training or logistics literature.

On one occasion, an American mobile training team working with armor in Egypt at long last received the operators’ manuals that had laboriously been translated into Arabic. The American trainers took the newly minted manuals straight to the tank park and distributed them to the tank crews. Right behind them, the company commander, a graduate of the armor school at Fort Knox and specialized courses at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds ordnance school, promptly collected the manuals from those crews. Questioned why he did this, the commander said that there was no point in giving them to the drivers because enlisted men could not read. In point of fact, he did not want enlisted men to have an independent source of knowledge. Being the only person who could explain the fire control instrumentation or bore sight artillery weapons brought prestige and attention.

In military terms this means that very little cross-training is accomplished and that, for instance in a tank crew, the gunners, loaders and drivers might be proficient in their jobs but are not prepared to fill in should one become a casualty. Not understanding one another’s jobs also inhibits a smoothly functioning crew. At a higher level it means that there is no depth in technical proficiency. 

Education Problems
Training tends to be unimaginative, cut and dried, and not challenging. Because the Arab educational system is predicated on rote memorization, officers have a phenomenal ability to commit vast amounts of knowledge to memory. The learning system tends to consist of on-high lectures, with students taking voluminous notes and being examined on what they were told. (It also has interesting implications for a foreign instructor, whose credibility, for example, is diminished if he must resort to a book.) The emphasis on memorization has a price, and that is in diminished ability to reason or engage in analysis based upon general principles. Thinking outside the box is not encouraged; doing so in public can damage a career. Instructors are not challenged and neither, in the end, are students.

Head-to-head competition among individuals is generally avoided, at least openly, for it means that someone wins and someone else loses, with the loser humiliated. This taboo has particular import when a class contains mixed ranks. Education is in good part sought as a matter of personal prestige, so Arabs in U.S. military schools take pains to ensure that the ranking member, according to military position or social class, scores the highest marks in the class. Often this leads to “sharing answers” in class — often in a rather overt manner or in junior officers concealing scores higher than those of their superiors.

American military instructors dealing with Middle Eastern students learn to ensure that, before directing any question to a student in a classroom situation, particularly if he is an officer, the student does possess the correct answer. If this is not assured, the officer may feel he has been deliberately set up for public humiliation. In the often-paranoid environment of Arab political culture, he may then become an enemy of the instructor, and his classmates will become apprehensive about their also being singled out for humiliation — and learning becomes impossible. 

Officers vs. soldiers
Arab junior officers are well trained on the technical aspects of their weapons and tactical know-how, but not in leadership, a subject given little attention. For example, as General Sa`d ash-Shazli, the Egyptian chief of staff, noted in his assessment of the army he inherited prior to the 1973 war, they were not trained to seize the initiative or volunteer original concepts or new ideas. Indeed, leadership may be the greatest weakness of Arab training systems. This problem results from two main factors: a highly accentuated class system bordering on a caste system, and lack of a non-commissioned-officer development program.

Most Arab armies treat enlisted soldiers like sub-humans. When the winds in Egypt one day carried biting sand particles from the desert during a demonstration for visiting U.S. dignitaries, I watched as a contingent of soldiers marched in and formed a single rank to shield the Americans; Egyptian soldiers, in other words, are used on occasion as nothing more than a windbreak. The idea of taking care of one’s men is found only among the most elite units in the Egyptian military. On a typical weekend, officers in units stationed outside Cairo will get in their cars and drive off to their homes, leaving the enlisted men to fend for themselves by trekking across the desert to a highway and flag down busses or trucks to get to the Cairo rail system. Garrison cantonments have no amenities for soldiers. The same situation, in various degrees, exists elsewhere in the Arabic-speaking countries — less so in Jordan, even more so in Iraq and Syria. The young draftees who make up the vast bulk of the Egyptian army hate military service for good reason and will do almost anything, including self-mutilation, to avoid it. In Syria the wealthy buy exemptions or, failing that, are assigned to noncombatant organizations. As a young Syrian told me, his musical skills came from his assignment to a Syrian army band where he learned to play an instrument. In general, the militaries of the Fertile Crescent enforce discipline by fear; in countries where a tribal system still is in force, such as Saudi Arabia, the innate egalitarianism of the society mitigates against fear as the prime mover, so a general lack of discipline pervades.

The social and professional gap between officers and enlisted men is present in all armies, but in the United States and other Western forces, the non-commissioned officer (NCO) corps bridges it. Indeed, a professional NCO corps has been critical for the American military to work at its best; as the primary trainers in a professional army, NCOs are critical to training programs and to the enlisted men’s sense of unit esprit. Most of the Arab world either has no NCO corps or it is non-functional, severely handicapping the military’s effectiveness. With some exceptions, NCOs are considered in the same low category as enlisted men and so do not serve as a bridge between enlisted men and officers. Officers instruct but the wide social gap between enlisted man and officer tends to make the learning process perfunctory, formalized, and ineffective. The show-and-tell aspects of training are frequently missing because officers refuse to get their hands dirty and prefer to ignore the more practical aspects of their subject matter, believing this below their social station. A dramatic example of this occurred during the Gulf War when a severe windstorm blew down the tents of Iraqi officer prisoners of war. For three days they stayed in the wind and rain rather than be observed by enlisted prisoners in a nearby camp working with their hands.

The military price for this is very great. Without the cohesion supplied by NCOs, units tend to disintegrate in the stress of combat. This is primarily a function of the fact that the enlisted soldiers simply do not have trust in their officers. Once officers depart the training areas, training begins to fall apart as soldiers begin drifting off. An Egyptian officer once explained to me that the Egyptian army’s catastrophic defeat in 1967 resulted from of a lack of cohesion within units. The situation, he said, had only marginally improved in 1973. Iraqi prisoners in 1991 showed a remarkable fear of and enmity toward their officers.

...................*

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## A.Rafay

Simple! Because Arabs are losers!


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## Falcon29

A.Rafay said:


> Simple! Because Arabs are losers!



Nope, it's because we lack spirit like we had in the old days. Our military's don't follow Islam guidelines anymore, this is why our only success comes from military organizations which are more disciplined than our armies.


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## farhanalee7

Arabs were the best warriors in their times but that Oil they have made them rich and Losers...


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## A.Rafay

Hazzy997 said:


> Nope, it's because we lack spirit like we had in the old days. Our military's don't follow Islam guidelines anymore, this is why our only success comes from military organizations which are more disciplined than our armies.


Ohh shocking! I didn't knew that. Thanks.

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## Falcon29

farhanalee7 said:


> Arabs were the best warriors in their times but that Oil they have made them rich and Losers...



Arabs are misguided currently, not all of us though. Our leadership and military's are not heading in the right direction.



A.Rafay said:


> Ohh shocking! I didn't knew that. Thanks.



Rafay, we're back to this stupid stuff of yours again.

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## Frogman

Hazzy997 said:


> Nope, it's because we lack spirit like we had in the old days. Our military's don't follow Islam guidelines anymore, this is why our only success comes from military organizations which are more disciplined than our armies.



Extremely outdated and flawed article, however, it did make valid points at it's time of publication, although in the majority of contemporary Arab and North African forces those criticisms have been addressed. 

These "military organizations" you speak of are held to completely different standards to those of conventional armed forces. Henry Kissinger once said " The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose".

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## NKVD

Simply Because of Lack of Innovation. They have to Be more Analytically and Strategically Predictive In War Planning

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## Falcon29

Frogman said:


> Extremely outdated and flawed article, however, it did make valid points at it's time of publication, although in the majority of contemporary Arab and North African forces those criticisms have been addressed.
> 
> These "military organizations" you speak of are held to completely different standards to those of conventional armed forces. Henry Kissinger once said " The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose".



That Jew's statement is also outdated, today military organizations can achieve calculated and surgical strikes. Their organization is impressive, we all need more discipline. 

Look at this:
Analysis of Hamas Military Capability After Six-Day Conflict With Israel - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Some of their rocket positions appear to be so well concealed that the Israeli air force hasn't been able to destroy them.

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## haman10

Hazzy997 said:


> Some of their rocket positions appear to be so well concealed that the Israeli air force hasn't been able to destroy them.

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## Frogman

> That Jew's statement is also outdated



Judge a man by his character not his religion.

His statement still rings true, the Taliban have not 'succeeded' over coalition forces in Afghanistan, they simply have not been eradicated, the same with Hezballah in the 2006 conflict, militarily the Israelis inflicted a huge amount of damage, however, they were not successful in completely destroying Hezballah.



> today military organizations can achieve calculated and surgical strikes. Their organization is impressive, we all need more discipline.
> 
> Look at this:
> Analysis of Hamas Military Capability After Six-Day Conflict With Israel - SPIEGEL ONLINE
> 
> Some of their rocket positions appear to be so well concealed that the Israeli air force hasn't been able to destroy them.



This makes no real difference, success for guerrillas and for conventional forces are two completely different things. The article makes no mention of a lack of religion or fundamentalism as a problem yet you have somehow concluded that from this article.

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## Falcon29

haman10 said:


>



Quds Force ...



Frogman said:


> Judge a man by his character not his religion.



I know that, I don't like that man. Being Jewish isn't a religion according to Jews.



> His statement still rings true, the Taliban have not 'succeeded' over coalition forces in Afghanistan, they simply have not been eradicated, the same with Hezballah in the 2006 conflict, militarily the Israelis inflicted a huge amount of damage, however, they were not successful in completely destroying Hezballah.



I'm speaking of Arabs, Afghanistan is a large territory and the war for them was difficult, they have some advantages but aren't that organized and modern.




> This makes no real difference, success for guerrillas and for conventional forces are two completely different things. The article makes no mention of a lack of religion or fundamentalism as a problem yet you have somehow concluded that from this article.



I know that, the point in the article is we do better as disciplined organizations rather than conventional approach.

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## haman10

Hazzy997 said:


> Quds Force ...


hush , hush .... 
in all seriousness , this needs people with great tactical knowledge . i'm really glad that hamas is nailing it 

mashaallah

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## Pakistanisage

Let me explain in very Brief terms why Arabs in Particular and Muslims in General lose WARS.

We lose WARS because of our CULTURE. We fight wars emotionally charged and that is not the way to fight battles in the modern times. In the old days, we fought Battle with our Enemy with sword and we needed lot of strength and emotions to rally into battle. Also, we used Strategy to defeat the Enemy.

Modern battles are fought with mostly devising Proper strategy. You cannot win modern battles with " Allaho Akbar " alone. If we Muslims want to win battles , we have to learn to use Strategy.

Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.

General Patton ( a famous US General from 2nd World War ) said it best:

*" The object is not for us to die for our Country but make the other Guy die for his....."

@Hazzy997 

The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.

WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..*

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## Falcon29

Pakistanisage said:


> Let me explain in very Brief terms why Arabs in Particular and Muslims in General lose WARS.



Go ahead explain. 



haman10 said:


> hush , hush ....
> in all seriousness , this needs people with great tactical knowledge . i'm really glad that hamas is nailing it
> 
> mashaallah



That's a good point, they also have much experience and they learn from their experiences. If you notice the difference between 2009 and 2012 it is a very drastic transformation.

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## Frogman

> I know that, I don't like that man.



No one does.



> I'm speaking of Arabs



The quote is relevant to any insurgent force going up against a superior conventional force, whether be it in the Arab world or elsewhere.



> Afghanistan is a large territory and the war for them was difficult, they have some advantages but aren't that organized and modern.



The Taliban are very organised, speak to any Afghan vet and they will tell you that. Whether they have modern weaponry or not isn't important, they will always be technologically inferior to the conventional force.



> I know that, the point in the article is we do better as disciplined organizations rather than conventional approach



That wasn't the point of the article, although some insurgent movements have had some success (success here is completely different to a conventional army) it does not mean we are 'culturally' better at them, the majority of criticisms he makes were also evident in western forces before the second and first world wars, they have simply gained experience in how to effectively fight in the modern and contemporary era. To believe that organizations such as Hamas or Hezballah are more disciplined than conventional forces is naive, they do not have sophisticated chains of command therefore simply can not be more disciplined.

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## Falcon29

Frogman said:


> No one does.








> The quote is relevant to any insurgent force going up against a superior conventional force, whether be it in the Arab world or elsewhere.



I don't know if I would consider arab military organizations insurgent forces, most are. However, others are more than just insurgents. 



> The Taliban are very organised, speak to any Afghan vet and they will tell you that. Whether they have modern weaponry or not isn't important, they will always be technologically inferior to the conventional force.



They have benefit of terrain and villagers, this is why they're very successful with hit and run operations. Although I tend to notice they have more low ranks having to take the lead and points. 




> That wasn't the point of the article, although some insurgent movements have had some success (success here is completely different to a conventional army) it does not mean we are 'culturally' better at them, the majority of criticisms of he makes were also evident in western forces before the second and first world wars, they have simply gained experience in how to effectively fight in the modern and contemporary era. To believe that organizations such as Hamas or Hezballah are more disciplined than conventional forces is naive, they do not have sophisticated chains of command therefore simply can not be more disciplined.



Show us that they gained experience, I don't believe that until I see concrete indicators. 

Even if that wasn't the point of the article I want us to discuss these things. I'm not sure how Hezbollah would fair today. Let's discuss Gaza now, they can't have one specific chain of command since they're at risk. There are military commanders nobody knows about, they have to live secretive lives. They have several division in Hamas for example, the northern, southern and the Gaza city one. Military organizations such as Hamas have to make sure anybody can take the lead, this is why they worry less about quantity and more about quality. They don't have hundreds of men manning each neighborhood, they have small numbers of men who can achieve much. Gaza is also completely flat, it has a huge disadvantage against a conventional army which is why they know have resorted to underground complexes, everything is based off underground now. They are very coordinated these days, many people in the Arab world were surprised that even under very intense fire they manage to make coordinated strikes. I can show you proofs of such, the thing is when you're an open war atmosphere it makes everybody paranoid so they over achieve and work a lot harder to prepare. 

We aren't comparing here, we should discuss Arab military capabilities all around. I really want your input on these few ideas:

1. For the people with way less experience and more money to spend they have better technology, for our more experienced we don't have access to all that technology. How do you think this could change?

2. We need to achieve self sufficiency at massive levels of production. Some Arab nations have license to produce some weapons but that's not enough. I believe Egypt could actually do really good in this field. 

3. I really don't believe our military commanders are dedicated to improving our warfare strategies, as I've said. Most Arab nations take points from the Western strategy which I believe we should avoid slighty, not completely. Our soviet based/Western guidance tactics don't work. Egypt is gaining experience in fast response situations, they realize they need to be paranoid in the Sinai which is good for any military. 

4. I believe all Arab militaries should have military organizations for support, we could use them to do some calculated strikes in time of need and they could study tactics of enemies and pass information to conventional army to study.

5. Even though I don't believe this would happen, let's picture a scenario of Israel going on a multi front war against Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza. Lets not bring personal views or politics here, how would this play out? Gaza and Lebanon cannot survive war for so long unless supply lines are open. Egypt would also need support, what would be our strategy? Would Saudi Arabia try supporting Egypt? The point is how? We are unprepared for future war scenarios especially considering water resources which all nations will compete for in the future. I don't believe Arab nations relations with the West will stay great for the whole next few decades.


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## Jaanbaz

Pakistanisage said:


> Let me explain in very Brief terms why Arabs in Particular and Muslims in General lose WARS.
> 
> We lose WARS because of our CULTURE. We fight wars emotionally charged and that is not the way to fight battles in the modern times. In the old days, we fought Battle with our Enemy with sword and we needed lot of strength and emotions to rally into battle. Also, we used Strategy to defeat the Enemy.
> 
> Modern battles are fought with mostly devising Proper strategy. You cannot win modern battles with " Allaho Akbar " alone. If we Muslims want to win battles , we have to learn to use Strategy.
> 
> Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.
> 
> General Patton ( a famous US General from 2nd World War ) said it best:
> 
> *" The object is not for us to die for our Country but make the other Guy die for his....."
> 
> @Hazzy997
> 
> The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.
> 
> WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..*



You should add these three: propaganda, education and innovation. Muslim countries are seriously lagging behind in education and innovation. We can't even produce a local indigenous car never mind winning wars with sophisticated nations.

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## Falcon29

Pakistanisage said:


> Let me explain in very Brief terms why Arabs in Particular and Muslims in General lose WARS.
> 
> We lose WARS because of our CULTURE. We fight wars emotionally charged and that is not the way to fight battles in the modern times. In the old days, we fought Battle with our Enemy with sword and we needed lot of strength and emotions to rally into battle. Also, we used Strategy to defeat the Enemy.
> 
> Modern battles are fought with mostly devising Proper strategy. You cannot win modern battles with " Allaho Akbar " alone. If we Muslims want to win battles , we have to learn to use Strategy.
> 
> Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.
> 
> General Patton ( a famous US General from 2nd World War ) said it best:
> 
> *" The object is not for us to die for our Country but make the other Guy die for his....."
> 
> @Hazzy997
> 
> The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.
> 
> WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..*



I agree with mosts you made here, although I kind of disagree with the culture part. It's different for each ethnicity, sometimes you can't avoid being killed going up against regional powers. Culture in some cases actually motivates people to take a stand. Conventionally speaking you may be right about the culture part in some cases. You make a good point even our Prophet told us to adopt strategies. God doesn't intervene in our affairs, he may inspire us though. I really agree with the last point, I don't see how Arab nations are planning for a future scenario of war.


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## Syrian Lion

simply because there are some "Arabs" traitors, who fly to Israel to tell Golda Meir about Syria and Egypt attack on Israel, do you know who I am talking about?

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## Falcon29

Syrian Lion said:


> simply because there are some "Arabs" traitors, who fly to Israel to tell Golda Meir about Syria and Egypt attack on Israel, do you know who I am talking about?



Yes I do, Jordan.

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## Desert Fox

Pakistanisage said:


> Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.



I wouldn't say it is a wrong approach since someone who is materialistic and in love with luxury wouldn't want to fight for his country because his love of material wealth and fear of death would prevent him from doing so.

On the other hand true Patriots/Nationalists would not fear losing their own life in the process of fighting for their nation since casualties are unavoidable/inevitable. Of course, attaching a suicide vest to one's own body and blowing one's self up is what i would consider as not a sensible move since that is a deliberate attempt to kill ones self and a waste of human talent/resource that could have been better applied against an enemy on the battlefield.




*


Pakistanisage said:



@Hazzy997 

The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.

WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..

Click to expand...

*I agree with this part.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pakistanisage said:


> Let me explain in very Brief terms why Arabs in Particular and Muslims in General lose WARS.
> 
> We lose WARS because of our CULTURE. We fight wars emotionally charged and that is not the way to fight battles in the modern times. In the old days, we fought Battle with our Enemy with sword and we needed lot of strength and emotions to rally into battle. Also, we used Strategy to defeat the Enemy.
> 
> Modern battles are fought with mostly devising Proper strategy. You cannot win modern battles with " Allaho Akbar " alone. If we Muslims want to win battles , we have to learn to use Strategy.
> 
> Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.
> 
> General Patton ( a famous US General from 2nd World War ) said it best:
> 
> *" The object is not for us to die for our Country but make the other Guy die for his....."
> 
> @Hazzy997
> 
> The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.
> 
> WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..*



*By Sir MuradK :*

*Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.*

Lets start with *UAE* *My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF.* I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is *8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great, *

Now 4pm* Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, *_*Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.*_

Now *Syrians*_* taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.*_
*
Iraqis* and* Iranians* man they had issues teach them something _*1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot*_. *Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw*


Informative threads:

How PAF pilots got the edge in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war | Page 2


Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ? | Page 15

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## Syrian Lion

Hazzy997 said:


> Yes I do, Jordan.


tell me this, if the Arabs were united, wouldn't the Arabs be a superpower? but the west will never let that happen, they want the Arabs divided, how do they keep them divided? they have their own puppet governments...


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## Falcon29

Syrian Lion said:


> tell me this, if the Arabs were united, wouldn't the Arabs be a superpower? but the west will never let that happen, they want the Arabs divided, how do they keep them divided? they have their own puppet governments...



We know that, they've been doing this for decades now. They will not leave us alone, much of the conflicts in the region are because of them. We've become desperate and weak so it's caused more tensions between us. If we were united Israel would see it necessary to make peace. However, in our nation there are too much Jewish lobbying groups and republican Jewish coalitions which give candidates billions to do what they want for Israel. Our foreign policy is too much Jewish influenced, we have pentagon chiefs who are Jewish and they make their top priorities based around the Middle East. So they will focus much activity in Arab and Muslim countries and this creates a feeling of a real conflict between Muslims and Americans. People don't know who's heading it though, much of our efforts and resources are based on the Middle East because this is how the Jewish people want it. Keep the US pre occupied with the Middle East and therefore it's very difficult for Arabs to head on the right path. I think people here are trying to slowly break free from it.


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## Frogman

> Show us that they gained experience, I don't believe that until I see concrete indicators.



Err!! WWI WWII? Maintenance of empires?

Western nations were involved in conventional wars between each other throughout the 18th and 19th centuries and had the largest and bloodiest battles in the 20th century, in comparison the Arab world lived in relative peace even if under foreign occupation.



> . Let's discuss Gaza now, they can't have one specific chain of command since they're at risk. There are military commanders nobody knows about, they have to live secretive lives



Having a sophisticated chain of command does not necessarily mean the enemy knows the ins and outs of said command, the opposite can also apply to organisations that have an 'informal' chain of command, if the enemy has effective intelligence assets they can use those to pin point the major players.



> Military organizations such as Hamas have to make sure anybody can take the lead, this is why they worry less about quantity and more about quality



If there was a sophisticated chain of command the next in line to lead would fall to the person of preceding rank in case of a death.



> For the people with way less experience and more money to spend they have better technology, for our more experienced we don't have access to all that technology. How do you think this could change?



Nations will never gain experience in fighting conventional wars unless they actually participate in them, however, what they can do is ensure a certain standard of training is present so that if there is a war they should perform adequately, they will also rely upon using their financial assets to ensure they have the best weapons systems around, what I am describing here is the majority of Gulf nations. Other nations have fought several conventional wars and are battle hardened, however, due to either their economic position or political position they can not get access to certain weaponry, however, because of their modest budgets or political positions they have to have a certain ingenuity in order to get their hands on weapons systems that are restricted from the traditional suppliers, for instance the Ukraine for Soviet weaponry Russia may not be willing to sell or to the Chinese for air defence systems or naval vessels etc. etc. these nations will also rely on legacy weaponry from when Pan-Arabism was still a thing, this is mainly a reliance deterrents such as chemical weapons and ballistic missiles. This could only change if the former nations improve their economic or political situations.



> We need to achieve self sufficiency at massive levels of production. Some Arab nations have license to produce some weapons but that's not enough. I believe Egypt could actually do really good in this field.



Egypt already does, however, the knowledge required to become self sufficient to a level comparable to that of the United States or Russia/PRC would take decades if not generations. For one these nations will never share the technology required to produce vital technology such as jet engines (even China isn't fully sufficient in that field yet although it is about to break that barrier). Things however are moving in the right direction with nations rightly wanting more licences and ToT and TopT, until one or several nations united can spend a tremendous amount on R&D there will not be self sufficiency comparable to that of former super powers, current super powers, or future super powers.



> 3. I really don't believe our military commanders are dedicated to improving our warfare strategies, as I've said. Most Arab nations take points from the Western strategy which I believe we should avoid slighty, not completely. Our soviet based/Western guidance tactics don't work. Egypt is gaining experience in fast response situations, they realize they need to be paranoid in the Sinai which is good for any military.



I'm not really sure about this one. Each nation will adopt the strategies and doctrine required that best suit the threats they face. We may scrutinize and criticise those strategies and doctrines but as amateur military enthusiasts we may not be as clued up on the threats they face or think they will face or are preparing to face.



> I believe all Arab militaries should have military organizations for support, we could use them to do some calculated strikes in time of need and they could study tactics of enemies and pass information to conventional army to study.



Those jobs are usually carried out by intelligence agencies.



> 5. Even though I don't believe this would happen, let's picture a scenario of Israel going on a multi front war against Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza. Lets not bring personal views or politics here, how would this play out? Gaza and Lebanon cannot survive war for so long unless supply lines are open. Egypt would also need support, what would be our strategy? Would Saudi Arabia try supporting Egypt? The point is how? We are unprepared for future war scenarios especially considering water resources which all nations will compete for in the future. I don't believe Arab nations relations with the West will stay great for the whole next few decades.



I don't really like scenarios since we can never accurately determine what might actually happen, however, what HA and EZQ can do is be a nuisance to the Israelis, forcing them to dedicate assets to fighting them which can alleviate the pressure on Egyptian forces although that won't be significant. What I can say with confidence is that SA and other Gulf nations will provide both financial and logistical support to the war effort, whether they will provide forces is unknown, however, they may be used as a proxy for weapons purchases (as they were for the Egyptian Mirage IVs).


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## Hyperion

He is one of the best fighter pilots the subcontinent ever created. I may even go as far as saying the best. He whooped arses of many many many air-forces, yet, even the enemies respected him. That was his stature.

Present generation, few pilots come to mind. Just a handful out of hundreds.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *By Sir MuradK :*
> 
> *Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
> ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.*
> 
> Lets start with *UAE* *My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF.* I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is *8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great, *
> 
> Now 4pm* Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, *_*Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.*_
> 
> Now *Syrians*_* taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.*_
> *Iraqis* and* Iranians* man they had issues teach them something _*1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot*_. *Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw*
> 
> 
> Informative threads:
> 
> How PAF pilots got the edge in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war | Page 2
> 
> 
> Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ? | Page 15

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hyperion said:


> He is one of the best fighter pilots the subcontinent ever created. I may even go as far as saying the best. He whooped arses of many many many air-forces, yet, even the enemies respected him. That was his stature.
> 
> Present generation, few pilots come to mind. Just a handful out of hundreds.


Indeed..

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## Falcon29

Frogman said:


> Err!! WWI WWII? Maintenance of empires?
> 
> Western nations were involved in conventional wars between each other throughout the 18th and 19th centuries and had the largest and bloodiest battles in the 20th century, in comparison the Arab world lived in relative peace even if under foreign occupation.



I'm speaking of Arab nations war experience against conventional army's in the past several decades. All I could think of is Iraq.



> If there was a sophisticated chain of command the next in line to lead would fall to the person of preceding rank in case of a death.



There is a man above Jabari, I'm not sure how to explain this. EQB is designed so if there isn't even a command the ordinary military members can take the lead, they're trained for such scenarios.



> Nations will never gain experience in fighting conventional wars unless they actually participate in them, however, what they can do is ensure a certain standard of training is present so that if there is a war they should perform adequately, they will also rely upon using their financial assets to ensure they have the best weapons systems around, what I am describing here is the majority of Gulf nations. Other nations have fought several conventional wars and are battle hardened, however, due to either their economic position or political position they can not get access to certain weaponry, however, because of their modest budgets or political positions they have to have a certain ingenuity in order to get their hands on weapons systems that are restricted from the traditional suppliers, for instance the Ukraine for Soviet weaponry Russia may not be willing to sell or to the Chinese for air defence systems or naval vessels etc. etc. these nations will also rely on legacy weaponry from when Pan-Arabism was still a thing, this is mainly a reliance deterrents such as chemical weapons and ballistic missiles. This could only change if the former nations improve their economic or political situations.



Great points, I don't completely trust the West if a war scenario broke out. I believe we should have a variety in our arsenal since China and Russia are less likely to screw us over. What do you mean by ballistic missiles? For Arab states?



> Egypt already does, however, the knowledge required to become self sufficient to a level comparable to that of the United States or Russia/PRC would take decades if not generations. For one these nations will never share the technology required to produce vital technology such as jet engines (even China isn't fully sufficient in that field yet although it is about to break that barrier). Things however are moving in the right direction with nations rightly wanting more licences and ToT and TopT, until one or several nations united can spend a tremendous amount on R&D there will not be self sufficiency comparable to that of former super powers, current super powers, or future super powers.



I agree with you here, could you list some aspects of their military sufficiency? I know they produce rifles, tanks, I don't know other than that. Lots of the Kalashnikov rifles in Gaza are Egyptian actually.



> I'm not really sure about this one. Each nation will adopt the strategies and doctrine required that best suit the threats they face. We may scrutinize and criticise those strategies and doctrines but as amateur military enthusiasts we may not be as clued up on the threats they face or think they will face or are preparing to face.



I know what you mean, for Egypt I think it has one of the better strategies in the arab world. I just think it used to be very soviet based, today I believe it should be a mix including their own military innovative strategy. Saudi Arabia and the gulf don't really how their own doctrine.



> Those jobs are usually carried out by intelligence agencies.



Very few in the Arab world, I was actually saying if they had them within their own borders to open fronts if necessary.



> I don't really like scenarios since we can never accurately determine what might actually happen, however, what HA and EZQ can do is be a nuisance to the Israelis, forcing them to dedicate assets to fighting them which can alleviate the pressure on Egyptian forces although that won't be significant. What I can say with confidence is that SA and other Gulf nations will provide both financial and logistical support to the war effort, whether they will provide forces is unknown, however, they may be used as a proxy for weapons purchases (as they were for the Egyptian Mirage IVs).



That's the point I was trying to make above, I really always wished EQB and Egypt had secret cooperation. They're neighbors, EQB could study Israeli war tactics and relay info and also watch for spies in the Sinai. I don't think we could predict scenarios because I really can't tell how it would play out. I can from a military organization POV, but, with a conventional army it's hard to tell. @Frogman


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## SALMAN F

The article some of it is not correct Iraq totally crushed the Kurds in all wars


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## Frogman

> I'm speaking of Arab nations war experience against conventional army's in the past several decades. All I could think of is Iraq.



There hasn't been much after the Arab Israeli wars, a few skirmishes between neighbors and quelling insurgencies is what the Arab world got up to after 1973. You could count the US strike of Libya in 1986 as a conventional war, the same with Egyptian-Libyan border conflict, however the Libyan didn't learn their lessons both times which eventually lead to the 2011 clusterfrick, Gaddafi kept his military weak on purpose to prevent coups.



> There is a man above Jabari, I'm not sure how to explain this. EQB is designed so if there isn't even a command the ordinary military members can take the lead, they're trained for such scenarios.



The same is true of any military, as long as their is some sort of chain, even if all that is left is lieutenants or NCOs.



> Great points, I don't completely trust the West if a war scenario broke out.



The view that a nation stopping the supply of spare parts during a war and an army being unable to use the equipment supplied by said army is unrealistic, spare parts are not provided on a day to day basis, spare parts are bought in bulk with every deal and at the least can last several years or throughout wars. The US will probably stop supplies to Egypt, however, it wouldn't effect us that much in the short term, they will however continue supplying Israel and providing intelligence to them as they did, Israel would also try to involve the US in the war, which is why you have to be incredibly careful picking a fight with them, it could mean the end of your nation as a whole if the US gets involved.



> agree with you here, could you list some aspects of their military sufficiency? I know they produce rifles, tanks, I don't know other than that. Lots of the Kalashnikov rifles in Gaza are Egyptian actually.



We produce everything from 9mm ammunition to MBT's and trainer jet aircraft, we will also produce navy corvettes by 2016. There is a growing want to produce weapons systems under licence.

This was a good interview in 2012 with former military industry minister gen/Ridah Hafez may he rest in peace, it's quite brief and more has been revealed since:





Something is weird with the notifications,sometimes I don't get any even if I have been quoted or mentioned...

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## Falcon29

@Frogman 

Same here, I tagged you in another thread, I agree with your posts as well. Check the PRF thread of mine.


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## Kesang

Hazzy997 said:


> Nope, it's because we lack spirit like we had in the old days. Our military's don't follow Islam guidelines anymore, this is why our only success comes from military organizations which are more disciplined than our armies.



Israel's military also don't follow islam guidelines at all then why do they always win against Islamic Arabs?


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## Falcon29

Kesang said:


> Israel's military also don't follow islam guidelines at all then why do they always win against Islamic Arabs?



Because India got nuked.

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## Kesang

Hazzy997 said:


> Because India got nuked.



I guess Allah love Jews more than Palestinian and Arabs, love Americans more than Iraqi and afghani.


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## Falcon29

Kesang said:


> I guess Allah love Jews more than Palestinian and Arabs, love Americans more than Iraqi and afghani.



Love isn't about this life, you're actually absolutely wrong. Allah(SWT) challenges those he loves the most. Nevertheless, enjoy your ban.

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## BLACKEAGLE

Everybody talks about himself, Palestine lost wars and was occupied. Your country, your loss.

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## Ceylal

Hazzy997 said:


> *Love isn't about this life*, you're actually absolutely wrong. Allah(SWT) challenges those he loves the most. Nevertheless, enjoy your ban.


You have just answered Kesang's question..If Arabs love life {on this earth}, they will be better fighters..unstead they spend more of their time imploring God for help...without meeting the almighty half way..


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## Falcon29

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Everybody talks about himself, Palestine lost wars and was occupied. Your country, your loss.



Jordan was the reason us Arabs were attacked by Israel in 67, you have no shame you Jordanians are not part of us Arabs.

@Syrian Lion , the collaborator is acting up again, I'm really reconsidering whether I should support the Syrian president Assad as of lately....these guys are collaborator garbage....

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## Hashshāshīn

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Everybody talks about himself, Palestine lost wars and was occupied. Your country, your loss.


Bro, what happened to the "Arab Nationalism" and "Pan-Arabism"?


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## doritos

Hashshāshīn said:


> Bro, what happened to the "Arab Nationalism" and "Pan-Arabism"?



lol, from what I remember he himself wrote here : ' I am an Arab nationalist'.


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## Khan_patriot

They lose wars because they have gone soft because of the oil and stuff, they think that all that kit they have is going to guarantee a victory but its not, they have no practical experience of war for a while and have had no major victory for over half a century, they are lazy *****.....


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## VelocuR

Arab people doesn't understand Technology concepts, they don't know the meanings on each tech specifications. 

Before Islam, Arab communities were the most dumb filthy people and after Islam entered the world, Arabs communities are still acting the same today fighting over brothers and sisters permanently. Their concept is nothing but worst humanity.


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## doritos

Hazzy997 said:


> Jordan was the reason us Arabs were attacked by Israel in 67, you have no shame you Jordanians are not part of us Arabs.



who the **** wants to be part of Arabs the bedouins or the old ideology of pan Arabism where half of the countries stabbed you in the back for US support ( khaleejis + Jordan ).

The new generation of Egyptians, Lebanese, Iraqis most of them reject Arab identity, most of them prefer their own national identity.

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## LionChamar

Arabs can't win wars, they lost to Indians in Rajastan battle.

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## jandk

The problem with Arabs (and Iranians) is that they tend to avoid self criticism and self reflection. Even the arabs on this forum, tend to take criticism in the wrong spirit. They tend to overestimate themselves and underestimate others. The middle easterners on this forum can be seen patting themselves on the back for relatively minor accomplishments while others are more humble. Unlike the far eastern cultures, Arabs are not big on humility. Maybe it is because they live in monarchies where dissent is illegal.

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## Ceylal

LionChamar said:


> Arabs can't win wars, they lost to Indians in Rajastan battle.


They haven't recovered yet? I wonder how this thread escaped Elhassani. He probably would have said that that Arabs were bewitched by the beauty of women that reason they let you win..

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## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> Jordan was the reason us Arabs were attacked by Israel in 67, you have no shame you Jordanians are not part of us Arabs.


Without Jordan Israel would take all the West Bank in 1948 and there would be no Palestinians.



Syrian Lion said:


> simply because there are some "Arabs" traitors, who fly to Israel to tell Golda Meir about Syria and Egypt attack on Israel, do you know who I am talking about?


Israeli army was not mobilized in 1973. 20 Syrian brigades attacked 2 Israeli brigades. Yet they failed and ran away. Only Iraqis and Jordanians saved Assad from total collapse.

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## Falcon29

500 said:


> Without Jordan Israel would take all the West Bank in 1948 and there would be no Palestinians.
> 
> 
> Israeli army was not mobilized in 1973. 20 Syrian brigades attacked 2 Israeli brigades. Yet they failed and ran away. Only Iraqis
> and Jordanians saved Assad from total collapse.



Nobody is needed for Israel to occupy Palestinian land, the creation of Israel in itself includes the occupation as part of what it believes is their state. European Jews are nationalists, they were seeking Palestinian land long before even the Ottoman Empire collapsed.



doritos said:


> who the **** wants to be part of Arabs the bedouins or the old ideology of pan Arabism where half of the countries stabbed you in the back for US support ( khaleejis + Jordan ).
> 
> The new generation of Egyptians, Lebanese, Iraqis most of them reject Arab identity, most of them prefer their own national identity.



If you don't see that you will contribute to this thread then simply don't post.


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## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> Nobody is needed for Israel to occupy Palestinian land, the creation of Israel in itself includes the occupation as part of what it believes is their state. European Jews are nationalists, they were seeking Palestinian land long before even the Ottoman Empire collapsed.


In 1947-1948 war 1.3 million Palestinians failed against 600 K Jews. Then Jordanians came and saved ur butts. Give them little respect.

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## Falcon29

jandk said:


> The problem with Arabs (and Iranians) is that they tend to avoid self criticism and self reflection. Even the arabs on this forum, tend to take criticism in the wrong spirit. They tend to overestimate themselves and underestimate others. The middle easterners on this forum can be seen patting themselves on the back for relatively minor accomplishments while others are more humble. Unlike the far eastern cultures, Arabs are not big on humility. Maybe it is because they live in monarchies where dissent is illegal.



I am fine with criticism of Arabs, i never lived under a monarchy though so I wouldn't know how it is. The middle easterners on this forum aren't really big on Arab culture, they're largely a minority. If you want to discuss things with the average Arab unfortunately you need to find yourself an Arab forum. 



500 said:


> In 1947-1948 war 1.3 million Palestinians failed against 600 K Jews. Then Jordanians came and saved ur butts. Give them little respect.



Before 1948 Jewish terrorists were ethnically cleansing Palestinian villages and Palestinians could not do much in their hand to prevent the Jewish goals put in place long ago. This thread is not about history or your revisionist history, it is related to discussing Arab military strategies and tactics and comparing them to today's. Don't discuss politics here please.


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## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> Before 1948 Jewish terrorists were ethnically cleansing Palestinian villages and Palestinians could not do much in their hand to prevent the Jewish goals put in place long ago.


Jews and Palestinians were in similar position. Palestinians had numeral advantage. From nov 1947 to april 1948 Jews were in very bad situation and could easy lose. But then they went to counter offensive which was very successful. And Jews would capture the entire Palestine with ease if Jordanians were not coming for rescue in may 1948.



> This thread is not about history or your revisionist history, it is related to discussing Arab military strategies and tactics and comparing them to today's. Don't discuss politics here please.


When Syrian and Palestinian attack Jordanians u should remember they saved u. Jordanians had a small army compare to other Arab armies, but most effective.


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## Falcon29

500 said:


> Jews and Palestinians were in similar position. Palestinians had numeral advantage. From nov 1947 to april 1948 Jews were in very bad situation and could easy lose. But then they went to counter offensive which was very successful. And Jews would capture the entire Palestine with ease if Jordanians were not coming for rescue in may 1948.
> 
> 
> When Syrian and Palestinian attack Jordanians u should remember they saved u. Jordanians had a small army compare to other Arab armies, but most effective.



We aren't attacking Jordan don't worry, it's the Israeli occupation which is nationalist to the core and wanted to steal Palestinian land one way or another. Now, if you could elaborate on modern Arab militaries that would be nice, lets not discuss politics.


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## 500

I dont think its correct to say that Arabs lose wars. In Iran-Iraq war for example Iraqi army fought against much larger Iran and Kurds in same time and did it well.

But when it comes to US, Iraqis could not do much in open desert vs overwhelmingly technologically superior country.

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## KingMamba

500 said:


> Jews and Palestinians were in similar position. Palestinians had numeral advantage. From nov 1947 to april 1948 Jews were in very bad situation and could easy lose. But then they went to counter offensive which was very successful. And Jews would capture the entire Palestine with ease if Jordanians were not coming for rescue in may 1948.
> 
> 
> When Syrian and Palestinian attack Jordanians u should remember they saved u. Jordanians had a small army compare to other Arab armies, but most effective.



That is BS the Palestinians had more people but most were non combatant, same for the Jews they had less people but most were also non combatants. As for combatants Jews had 30,000 strong at the beginning of the war and the Arabs had about the same, by the time Jordan entered Jewish had 100,000 plus soldiers and at the end of the war more than 150K. Also Jews had better arms largely exported from Eastern Europe while Arabs were ill equipped except for the Jordanians who entered late and largely accomplished what they had set out to do which was annex the West Bank.


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## BLACKEAGLE

Hazzy997 said:


> Jordan was the reason us Arabs were attacked by Israel in 67, you have no shame you Jordanians are not part of us Arabs.
> 
> @Syrian Lion , the collaborator is acting up again, I'm really reconsidering whether I should support the Syrian president Assad as of lately....these guys are collaborator garbage....


Palestinians are the basest thing have ever existed. We hosted them in Jordan, they attacked us but they were beaten up and expelled, the same happened to them in Israel, Lebanon, Lydia, Kuwait, Iraq and now Syria. They are garbage, everyone throw them away


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## Falcon29

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Palestinians are the basest thing have ever existed. We hosted them in Jordan, they attacked us but they were beaten up and expelled, the same happened to them in Israel, Lebanon, Lydia, Kuwait, Iraq and now Syria. They are garbage, everyone throw them away



Khalas relax there is no reason for this, in the end we all love each other and hope for the best for each other. Inshallah all of us regain our honor and dignity and restore our rights.


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## BLACKEAGLE

Hazzy997 said:


> Khalas relax there is no reason for this, in the end we all love each other and hope for the best for each other. Inshallah all of us regain our honor and dignity and restore our rights.


You have no rights in the state of Israel.


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## Falcon29

BLACKEAGLE said:


> You have no rights in the state of Israel.



That's great to know.


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## doritos

What is Lydia


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## Armstrong

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Palestinians are the basest thing have ever existed. We hosted them in Jordan, they attacked us but they were beaten up and expelled, the same happened to them in Israel, Lebanon, Lydia, Kuwait, Iraq and now Syria. They are garbage, everyone throw them away


 
Woww....what the heck am I reading here !  

You were supposed to be an Arab Nationalist or something !  

And Queen Rania is a Palestinian !


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## BLACKEAGLE

Hashshāshīn said:


> Bro, what happened to the "Arab Nationalism" and "Pan-Arabism"?



When you fight 4 wars for them, host 2 million of them and offer them passports and all citizens rights. When you employ all your abilities to defend them politically, and set up hospitals in their territories and send to them aids every while, and what you get in return is insults and accusations of treason, you will have no choice but to hate them.

The very same they did in Kuwait, Kuwait preferred Palestinian workers over others to help them, until their numbers reached 500 k (more than Kuwaiti citizens), and when Kuwait got invaded, they got down streets and chanted for the invaders. I Iraq, they collaborated with Saddam against Iraqis. In Lebanon, they tried to take it over, the same in Jordan. And after we chose to let it go, they wouldn't do so, they always attack you. It's not only about Hazzy but most of them are like this.

I've long feared a Palestinian with Hazzy's mindset here in PDF, because I know them and I knew they would bad mouth me and my country. No matter how much you sacrifice for them, they will always back-stab you in the back. However, when he came here I hoped nothing of this sort would happen, and I warned him several times but he brought it to himself my man. He got what he worked for.

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## Falcon29

BLACKEAGLE said:


> When you fight 4 wars for them, host 2 million of them and offer them passports and all citizens rights. When you employ all your abilities to defend them politically, and set up hospitals in their territories and send to them aids every while, and what you get in return is insults and accusations of treason, you will have no choice but to hate them.
> 
> The very same they did in Kuwait, Kuwait preferred Palestinian workers over others to help them, until their numbers reached 500 k (more than Kuwaiti citizens), and when Kuwait got invaded, they got down streets and chanted for the invaders. I Iraq, they collaborated with Saddam against Iraqis. In Lebanon, they tried to take it over, the same in Jordan. And after we chose to let it go, they wouldn't do so, they always attack you. It's not only about Hazzy but most of them are like this.
> 
> I've long feared a Palestinian with Hazzy's mindset here in PDF, because I know them and I knew they would bad mouth me and my country. No matter how much you sacrifice for them, they will always back-stab you in the back. However, when he came here I hoped nothing of this sort would happen, and I warned him several times but he brought it to himself my man. He got what he worked for.



Who accused you of treason? All Arabs have collaborators, we had them in Egypt, in Syria and in Palestine. You're not a collaborator, and no, your choice is not to hate us. As I told you, you say you're a fan of pan Arabism, yet the pan arab PLO is what you're describing here. My mindset is perfectly fine, you are against a large portion of Arabs because they have a different opinion than you. All the instances you described have been committed by pan Arabs. I am very simply about this, pan Arabism is like pre Islamic Arabs. We know very well from our scripture and our Prophet(SAW) that it will lead us even more astray. The only thing that can solve our problems is Islam. It's no different today than yesterday, you know exactly that Pan Arabism is a path that will not work and only create more problems. I am very clear when it comes to Jewish colonialists, I don't side with them if it suits me, I never side with them even if they criticize people I don't like. You don't what you're talking about, you support persecution of a huge portion of Arabs because they differ on their views. You have gone from pan arab to Saudi/Egypt anti Islamist camp. None of you care about the I/P conflict, because you're invested in something very wrong. You bring things on yourself, just because I disagree with Saudi/Egypt camp doesn't mean you go anti Palestinian and embarrass us here and let the Jewish colonialists laugh at us.


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## seethru

Arabs were never in wars in the recent years. Those were all lengthy Battles.


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## Falcon29

Armstrong said:


> Woww....what the heck am I reading here !
> 
> You were supposed to be an Arab Nationalist or something !
> 
> And Queen Rania is a Palestinian !



The problem with these is people is they aren't a hundred percent Pan Arabs anyways. They want you to accept their ideas, which is two things:

1. We have to solve our problems in our nations caused by Shia
2. Support military regimes and monarchies

Now, let's say I decided to say I support their leaders and their nations and went along #1. What do I get in return? They will not speak about Palestine, they will not support the Palestinians in Gaza, they will actually condemn them even. They will tell us to just go along with the US/Israeli plan which is to completely dominate Palestine and continue their crimes against humanity. This is not reasonable, to be fair to them they're also scared of US/Israel since they threaten us with complete destruction if we even slightly support the Palestinians. Europe and Israel attacked Egypt in 56, these nations attack us on behalf of Israel because of Jewish money and domination. So this naturally means we ask ourselves why don't we develop a strategy to get around this hegemony? What are we doing to change that ? Upgrading relations with them and preventing Saudi citizens from being able to donate to palestine?

They say we have our own affairs, that's what they said before Syria, today they're flooding Syria and Egypt with billions of dollars and tons of weapons. Could they really have not been able to support the Palestinians with even a portion of that? Could they at least take extreme diplomatic action which makes things easier for them? The people would tell you yes, however, the people governing us cannot support palestine simply because the US/EU/Israel do not want us to take matters into our own hands. They want to control how conflicts play out.

I've had someone tell me in a private message that after Syria everything will be focused on Palestine, I really wish that and he probably genuinely does too. But, is that really likely? I don't think so, unless you believe otherwise.

In the end even if I appease them some of them will still stand against the Palestinians here, many are pro Israel and celebrate when Israel gets new weapons. That can't happen, you can't say you're going to liberate palestine later and give credibility to Israel which is a pariah state. Some people all sellout starting to realize how crazy Israelis are becoming and they actually really don't know how they are. They never experienced the intifada days, maybe they are waking up though.

How many Arabs thank my posts regarding the i/P conflict or leave a comment condemning Israel's actions? Only Al-Hasani used to that, the people that are condemning Israel's actions are Pakistanis and Iranians mostly. So there's something fishy when they tell you only focus on Syria right now don't bring up Palestine. Yet, they discuss Egypt and everything else in the Arab world but single out Palestine with an exception of a few people. This is not right.


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## hamzaafridi_pak

There was a person recently whom I met and we came up with this very debate. There were few very important points my opponent came up with. I would just quote a one line "Arabs come with their old tanks and say Allah is with us where they are directly disobeying Almighty Allah's command in Surah Anfal where he commanded us to be prepared for war with well trained horses."

One other point is that Arabs are now under the knife of the west unfortunately reason all their money is invested in there. They have no choice but to obey them!

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## Falcon29

hamzaafridi_pak said:


> There was a person recently whom I met and we came up with this very debate. There were few very important points my opponent came up with. I would just quote a one line "Arabs come with their old tanks and say Allah is with us where they are directly disobeying Almighty Allah's command in Surah Anfal where he commanded us to be prepared for war with well trained horses."
> 
> One other point is that Arabs are now under the knife of the west unfortunately reason all their money is invested in there. They have no choice but to obey them!



Exactly! We are in a difficult position, but , we need to start changing that around! This is what the Palestinian people in Gaza believe and other Arabs who strive for self determination! We need to be doing something to change that around! What is being done? Nothing.

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## hamzaafridi_pak

Hazzy997 said:


> Exactly! We are in a difficult position, but , we need to start changing that around! This is what the Palestinian people in Gaza believe and other Arabs who strive for self determination! We need to be doing something to change that around! What is being done? Nothing.



My heart bleeds for Palestinian people. But it makes no difference does it. My tears won't bring smiles on the faces of thousands of Palestinian children who lost there fathers, mother, sisters, brothers and friends. The only thing that would make any difference would be your actions and my actions. And by actions I mean PEACEFUL action. Make the world realize about it. Make every living person on earth feel the loss these children have beard!

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## doritos

We didn't win against Iran using camouflage of the Arab world


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## BLACKEAGLE

Let me tell you what happened just to tell people who was trying to force his views on who, from A-Z:

1- I'm known here of defending Palestinians and their cause, I've created threads and posts, I've had a lot of fights with Israelis and their supporters and neutralized them.The last one was *popeye-turbo *whom I created a thread to follow his new accounts and show to Mods to get banned, and 3 of his accounts were banned. And this is one of my recent posts regarding my first part of the above:

Palestinian struggle for freedom. | Page 48

2- The same goes with most Saudis, they've been even the most radical in being anti Israel. However, you've been harassing me and them just because they have a different view than yours, and I warned you about that and told you are not helping your cause, and further hurting Palestinian image and you're forcing them to turn against you. Your response was negligence of my warning.

3- I tried to avoid you as much as I can so we don't reach this point, but you kept following and harassing me and Saudi members.

4- Here I created a new thread about Obama's visit to Riyadh as it's an important visit of a president of the most powerful country to an important Arab country. That's what I got from Hazzy:

Obama begins official visit to Saudi Arabia

I replied and then ignored him. Then this, it's in Arabic:

Obama begins official visit to Saudi Arabia | Page 2

He was talking - after calling us animals - about Zionism, American hegemony and not believing in America. ( Although I have never said I'm pro US, all what was doing is posting NEWS)

I told him to shut up as he used insults and started going crazy about things we have nothing to do with.

5- Then he called me and my people animals, traitors, collaborators, kafirs, atheists, backwards..ect


Obama begins official visit to Saudi Arabia | Page 2

The fights started from there.




Hazzy997 said:


> Who accused you of treason? All Arabs have collaborators, we had them in Egypt, in Syria and in Palestine. You're not a collaborator, and no, your choice is not to hate us. As I told you, you say you're a fan of pan Arabism, yet the pan arab PLO is what you're describing here. My mindset is perfectly fine, you are against a large portion of Arabs because they have a different opinion than you. All the instances you described have been committed by pan Arabs. I am very simply about this, pan Arabism is like pre Islamic Arabs. We know very well from our scripture and our Prophet(SAW) that it will lead us even more astray. The only thing that can solve our problems is Islam. It's no different today than yesterday, you know exactly that Pan Arabism is a path that will not work and only create more problems. I am very clear when it comes to Jewish colonialists, I don't side with them if it suits me, I never side with them even if they criticize people I don't like. You don't what you're talking about, you support persecution of a huge portion of Arabs because they differ on their views. You have gone from pan arab to Saudi/Egypt anti Islamist camp. None of you care about the I/P conflict, because you're invested in something very wrong. You bring things on yourself, just because I disagree with Saudi/Egypt camp doesn't mean you go anti Palestinian and embarrass us here and let the Jewish colonialists laugh at us.



You're a lying liar. That's why I usually call you a liar, simply not to insult you but because you lie. Look above. Plus. You always call me a collaborator, a traitor, a kafir, an athiest, an enemy of god. I'm not the one who force my view on you, it's you who stalk, harass and insult to force your view on us. What the fvck you freak do my religious views have to do with you? It's not of yourfreaking business whether I'm atheist or not, pan Arab or not, religious or not!


@Armstrong @Arabian Legend @Yzd Khalifa @Frogman

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## Tunisian Marine Corps

doritos said:


> We didn't win against Iran using camouflage of the Arab world


this is the most stupid uniform ever


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## Hasbara Buster

Hezbollah never lost any war.


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## Tunisian Marine Corps

we Tunisians we never lose war 
we are win our Independence war 
we are wining war in terror


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## doritos

Tunisian Marine Corps said:


> this is the most stupid uniform ever



Not used in war.


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## Syrian Lion

500 said:


> Without Jordan Israel would take all the West Bank in 1948 and there would be no Palestinians.
> 
> 
> Israeli army was not mobilized in 1973. 20 Syrian brigades attacked 2 Israeli brigades. Yet they failed and ran away. Only Iraqis and Jordanians saved Assad from total collapse.



oh how cute, the Israeli came to help....


and in 1973 Egypt got back Sinai and then the Egypt stopped, thus it put all the pressure on Syria alone...

and you think Israel is fighting its own wars? there wouldn't be Israel if it wasn't for the west and their puppets in the region...

Jordan and Israel cooperated during Yom Kippur War, documents reveal - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz

Now Wikipedia provide the sources... so don't complain, source [11] is linked...

After the 1967 War and the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 242, Gunnar Jarring was appointed by the UN as a special envoy for the Middle East peace process, leading the so-calledJarring Mission. Both Egypt and Israel responded to Jarring's proposals with support for a peace process, but the process did not move forward.[10] Egyptian president Anwar Sadat and Syrian president Hafez al-Assad met King Hussein in 1973 to discuss the possibility of war. Hussein, fearing another loss of territory to Israel, declined. Furthermore, Hussein was suspicious of Sadat's promise to PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat to hand over the West Bank to the Palestinians in the event of a victory, as he considered the West Bank to be Jordanian territory. On the night of 25 September, Hussein secretly flew to Tel Aviv to warn Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir of an impending Syrian attack. "Are (the Syrians) going to war without the Egyptians, asked Mrs. Meir. The king said he didn't think so. 'I think they [Egypt] would cooperate'".[11]
On 6 October 1973, Syria and Egypt attacked Israel without the aid of Jordan. A ceasefire was declared on 23 October, but fighting continued until January 1974. The Camp David Accords were signed by Egyptian President Anwar El Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin on 17 September 1978, after 14 months of diplomatic efforts by Egypt, Israel, and the United States.


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## Syrian Lion




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## Arabian Legend

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Let me tell you what happened just to tell people who was trying to force his views on who, from A-Z:
> 
> 1- I'm known here of defending Palestinians and their cause, I've created threads and posts, I've had a lot of fights with Israelis and their supporters and neutralized them.The last one was *popeye-turbo *whom I created a thread to follow his new accounts and show to Mods to get banned, and 3 of his accounts were banned. And this is one of my recent posts regarding my first part of the above:
> 
> Palestinian struggle for freedom. | Page 48
> 
> 2- The same goes with most Saudis, they've been even the most radical in being anti Israel. However, you've been harassing me and them just because they have a different view than yours, and I warned you about that and told you are not helping your cause, and further hurting Palestinian image and you're forcing them to turn against you. Your response was negligence of my warning.
> 
> 3- I tried to avoid you as much as I can so we don't reach this point, but you kept following and harassing me and Saudi members.
> 
> 4- Here I created a new thread about Obama's visit to Riyadh as it's an important visit of a president of the most powerful country to an important Arab country. That's what I got from Hazzy:
> 
> Obama begins official visit to Saudi Arabia
> 
> I replied and then ignored him. Then this, it's in Arabic:
> 
> Obama begins official visit to Saudi Arabia | Page 2
> 
> He was talking - after calling us animals - about Zionism, American hegemony and not believing in America. ( Although I have never said I'm pro US, all what was doing is posting NEWS)
> 
> I told him to shut up as he used insults and started going crazy about things we have nothing to do with.
> 
> 5- Then he called me and my people animals, traitors, collaborators, kafirs, atheists, backwards..ect
> 
> 
> Obama begins official visit to Saudi Arabia | Page 2
> 
> The fights started from there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're a lying liar. That's why I usually call you a liar, simply not to insult you but because you lie. Look above. Plus. You always call me a collaborator, a traitor, a kafir, an athiest, an enemy of god. I'm not the one who force my view on you, it's you who stalk, harass and insult to force your view on us. What the fvck you freak do my religious views have to do with you? It's not of yourfreaking business whether I'm atheist or not, pan Arab or not, religious or not!
> 
> 
> @Armstrong @Arabian Legend @Yzd Khalifa @Frogman




Pretty much summed it up very nicely very neatly.


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## 500

Syrian Lion said:


> oh how cute, the Israeli came to help....
> 
> and in 1973 Egypt got back Sinai and then the Egypt stopped, thus it put all the pressure on Syria alone...


Actually on contrary. While Egypt very successfully fought Israel until 14th oct, Syrian army collapsed by 10th oct. In order to help Syrians Egyptians launched a large suicidal attack. They suffered enormous loses to help Syria.

Syrians could stop advancing Israeli troops thanks to Iraqis and Jordanians.


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## doritos

500 said:


> Actually on contrary. While Egypt very successfully fought Israel until 14th oct, Syrian army collapsed by 10th oct. In order to help Syrians Egyptians launched a large suicidal attack. They suffered enormous loses to help Syria.
> 
> Syrians could stop advancing Israeli troops thanks to Iraqis and Jordanians.



Were the SAA issues because of lack of training, lack of gear or inexperienced commanders


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## Syrian Lion

500 said:


> Actually on contrary. While Egypt very successfully fought Israel until 14th oct, Syrian army collapsed by 10th oct. In order to help Syrians Egyptians launched a large suicidal attack. They suffered enormous loses to help Syria.
> 
> Syrians could stop advancing Israeli troops thanks to Iraqis and Jordanians.


Jordanian help? yeah they helped so much by revealing military operations to Israel... Jordan sent few troops to hide its betrayal...
Jordan and Israel cooperated during Yom Kippur War, documents reveal - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz 
and read my post #75 which has more information..

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## Falcon29

@BLACKEAGLE 

I've called some people atheists since some of them openly proclaimed to be so. All I told you in that thread was is that we shouldn't rely on America if you're Pan arabs you need to really do actions which will help our Islamic causes. I respect Saudi Arabians, they're just individuals though. Anybody will take pride in their nation, I take pride in Saudi Arabia as well. It is our Islamic homeland. However, the truth just is the Saudi leaderships actions do not do us good for Palestine or Islam. You can try arguing this by providing concrete actions that they really want an islamized Arab world which will direct all it's attention to Israel. I do not see this by their actions, same with the current Egyptian leadership. However, because the people have been protesting lately Egypt has opened the border and he might change his stance in the near future maybe, I haven't lost complete hope in him. I want a stable Egypt, even though the people dying everyday is very sad, Egypt is important for the Arab world. Jordan on the other hand, they act more toward the Palestinian cause and have made clear their support and stances for Palestine. My problem with you is not about Jordan, it's your unconditional support to everything Saudi Arabia and Egypt do. Same goes for other people here. They take it to another level though, for some mysterious reason they're anti Palestinian resistance as well. This was only for politics they do this, in reality as far as I'm aware you and JUbA and Arabian legend support the Palestinian right to resistance. I also believe @Frogman finds their cause legitimate and I've seen viewing one of my threads. This is the only problem I have, I just simply cannot support everything Saudi Arabia does and sometimes I speak against them. I can't have people make lies against the Egyptian opposition, even if they don't like them, they need to be reasonable like Al Hasani and not make bizarre lies against them.


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## BLACKEAGLE

@Hazzy997 Again, you're lying and twisting facts although I showed some of your posts. Listen freak, you've tested me and I hope you you don't test me again. For me, you're takifiri terrorists - supporter and a liar. You're shallow and too dumb to have talks with. Never talk to me again.


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## Mahmoud_EGY

500 said:


> Actually on contrary. While Egypt very successfully fought Israel until 14th oct, Syrian army collapsed by 10th oct. In order to help Syrians Egyptians launched a large suicidal attack. They suffered enormous loses to help Syria.
> 
> Syrians could stop advancing Israeli troops thanks to Iraqis and Jordanians.


the egyptian attack could never have done anything any army in the world out of the range of their air defence in open deserts this attack didnt help syria or Egypt this attack helped isreal and if not for airbone and commandos stoping isreali advance to ismalia and suez things would gone worse but after all Egypt accomplished her goals set from the start of the war

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## hussain0216

Arabs are not united and in the recent past havent properly prepared for war

Simple as that, the wars of the past based on islamic zeal are gone

Todays you need islamic zeal, plus planning, logistics and weaponery combine the three and you wont lose


The most competant arab military over the last 50 years is probably the egypt military, but compare them to israel and look how many dumb decisions the egyptians have made, the americans and israeli's allowed the egyptians to artificially pump up their military whilst having no ability to hit israel hard with the the israeli's holding air and missile advantage

I mean where is the planning, F16's with no effective BVR, where are your missile's to hit all of israel



The GCC are atleast planning with an array of weaponry and it seems they have got their thinking caps on but once again regional rivalries are holding them back, the GCC must keep building their arsenal and at the same time take the initiative to build weapons themselves and help allies, like pakistan, turkey, indoensia to invest in their military industries so you have choices when the west acts against you

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## Shah9

Arabs are weak because of the disunity, nationalism, tribalism and religious division. Simple as that.


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## Falcon29

BLACKEAGLE said:


> @Hazzy997 Again, you're lying and twisting facts although I showed some of your posts. Listen freak, you've tested me and I hope you you don't test me again. For me, you're takifiri terrorists - supporter and a liar. You're shallow and too dumb to have talks with. Never talk to me again.



Again you're being childish, I already explained my problem with you.


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## atatwolf

Shah9 said:


> Arabs are weak because of the disunity, nationalism, tribalism and religious division. Simple as that.


Arabs still conquered the Iranians...

Why are you writing Arabic and have Arab religion?

I think modern Arabs can't fight because they don't have built up experience. They were ruiled by Ottomans for generations and only have experience fighting tribal style. Large conventional wars they still use this tribal sense of warfare, can't hold lines, don't have the discipline and don't have sense of sacrifise for the greater good for their country.

Iranians are also like this after being ruled by Safavid Azeri for centuries.

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## jatt+gutts

lack of battlefield education, lack of strategies, lack of technology, no concept of motherland, lack of sense of honor in being martyr for own nation.


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## hussain0216

jatt+gutts said:


> lack of battlefield education, lack of strategies, lack of technology, no concept of motherland, lack of sense of honor in being martyr for own nation.



Indians are very similar


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## Thəorətic Muslim

I agree with @Pakistanisage that Muslims are emotional charged. Believing that ALLAH is with them through out. To a certain extent that is true. But modern war is fought on discipline. You cant just go run out in a hail of bullets. This isn't the 1700's where men lined up and shoot at each other from 20 meters. This is the 21st Century you fire missiles from drone that you operate from the other side of the world.

However, You all seem to discredit the prowess of the common soldier. War isnt just about mobilizing forces and declaring war, there are Intl Rel. aspects to it.

I've trained with soldiers from Jordan and Egypt, in Ft. Benning and Ft Campbell, they are professional, disciplined, smart. But they are soldiers. Not the Generals or statesmen that dictate orders. If a CO tells them to jump, they'll ask how high? They know the range that their rank provides them, and stay within it. That is what I think is the biggest weakness. Lack of willingness to be *BOLD*.

The Command Structure is too top down. No NCO, or Major/ Captain is going to risk antagonizing his superior by doing something tactical when the superior says another. Nor will he ask for more autonomy for fear of pissing him off.

It has nothing to do with Religion, its Culture.

@Hazzy997 @BLACK EAGLE @atatwolf @doritos

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## jatt+gutts

hussain0216 said:


> Indians are very similar


our history is full of sacrifices made for the country. and nobody I mean nobody can violate our soverignity. we are powerfull nuclear state.

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## hussain0216

jatt+gutts said:


> our history is full of sacrifices made for the country. and nobody I mean nobody can violate our soverignity. we are powerfull nuclear state.



The arabs conquered half of france, all of spain, half of italy, northern africa, the middle east defeating the byzantine empire and persian empire Their current problems are due to division but dont compare them to indians, indians have done nothing in terms of militaryv achievements compared to the arabs

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## -SINAN-

I don't know much about history..

My humble opinion is; when you live in easy land, you don't become fierce warriors... just my opinion.

Greeks, Iranians, Arabs lived in paradise like lands. While we Turks constantly fought against Chinese, Mongolians and other Turkic nations for centuaries in harsh geography. While you build cities, advanced on science, literature, philosophy, medicine, maths. We did nothing but fought. Settling only meant death in middle-asian steppes.

I think it is about your culture, the way you live what makes you tough warriors.

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## Falcon29

Sinan said:


> I don't know much about history..
> 
> My humble opinion is; when you live in easy land, you don't become fierce warriors... just my opinion.
> 
> Greeks, Iranians, Arabs lived in paradise like lands. While we Turks constantly fought against Chinese, Mongolians and other Turkic nations for centuaries in harsh geography. While you build cities, advanced on science, literature, philosophy, medicine, maths. We did nothing but fought. Settling only meant death in middle-asian steppes.
> 
> I think it is about your culture, the way you live what makes you though warriors.



Actually, we've been facing colonialism for a while and millions were killed due to that. It's that we just don't have the will we used to have. Nobody cares about doing something for their own people anymore. Arabs were warriors like no others, Palestinians are also warriors for defeating Israel in 2012. Arab nation actually were victorious in 1948, Iraq liberated almost all of Palestine and every Arab nation told their forces to withdraw which gave Israel time to rearm and go on the offensive. Today the levant Arabs do not have sufficient economies nor very advanced weaponry. Saudi Arabia does, how likely is it that Saudi Arabia will do anything to help the Arab world?

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## -SINAN-

Hazzy997 said:


> Actually, we've been facing colonialism for a while and millions were killed due to that. It's that we just don't have the will we used to have. Nobody cares about doing something for their own people anymore. Arabs were warriors like no others, Palestinians are also warriors for defeating Israel in 2012. Arab nation actually were victorious in 1948, Iraq liberated almost all of Palestine and every Arab nation told their forces to withdraw which gave Israel time to rearm and go on the offensive. Today the levant Arabs do not have sufficient economies nor very advanced weaponry. Saudi Arabia does, how likely is it that Saudi Arabia will do anything to help the Arab world?



Mate, i'm not calling Arabs, weak or anything. I'm just making a comparison. I'm not talking about wars lost or won. We are undefeated in Anatolia for a nearly a millenia. Never lost our independence to any one. 

IMO opinion Arabs got divided beyond repair. I think only an Arab great power can unite Arabs.

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## doritos

Hazzy997 said:


> Saudi Arabia does, how likely is it that Saudi Arabia will do anything to help the Arab world?



Most incompetent army of the Arab world, relies on the air force due to lack of personnel & incompetence, same with the UAE, Qatar and all Gulf states.

All they will boast about is how they performed while the US was watching over them 2 meters behind them & commanding their forces or firing artillery on poor trained houthis ( coordinates given by US ).

Let them fight a real war on their own first, these armies are the biggest joke of the region.


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## al-Hasani

What a stupid thread where a few moronic and envious trolls are roaming lose like animals that escaped from the local zoo.

*Arabs created 3 of the 11 largest empires the world have ever seen. That's a better achievement than any other ethnic group in the top 15. So any criticism can only be laughed at especially by us Hijazis who created all that. *

List of largest empires - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also which Arabs is the article talking about? For all I know then the Arab world has not fought more than a few wars with non-Arabs in the past 100 years and most of them have been won. Outside of confrontations with USA - the world's undisputed superpower which attacked 1 Arab country (Iraq) and then an atomic power Israel that defeated 3-4 Arab armies while fighting for their very existence. No other Muslim countries could have done anything against those two countries.

Arabs were historically one of the strongest warriors as history is a clear witness of but today it's all about technology and for obvious reasons military powers like USA, Israel etc. will triumph against much worser equipped militaries.

Had those wars been fought centuries ago the outcome would have been different. 

What are a bunch of foreigners doing in this thread badmouthing us when we ruled their countries or territories for centuries, conquered them religiously, culturally, linguistically and ethnically? 

Stupid and useless thread.

@Aeronaut troll thread.



hussain0216 said:


> The arabs conquered half of france, all of spain, half of italy, northern africa, the middle east defeating the byzantine empire and persian empire Their current problems are due to division but dont compare them to indians, indians have done nothing in terms of militaryv achievements compared to the arabs



Laughable is it not? But it is PDF so expected.

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## al-Hasani

doritos said:


> Most incompetent army of the Arab world, relies on the air force due to lack of personnel & incompetence, same with the UAE, Qatar and all Gulf states.
> 
> All they will boast about is how they performed while the US was watching over them 2 meters behind them & commanding their forces or firing artillery on poor trained houthis ( coordinates given by US ).
> 
> Let them fight a real war on their own first, these armies are the biggest joke of the region.



Says the clown whose army has lost 2000 soldiers to a few lightly armed Anbaris with guerrilla tactics in Al-Anbar in 3 months time. Don't make us laugh.

The only people who can fight in your country are the Sunni Arabs and especially the Anbaris that you falsely call Bedouins (like this was negative knowing that 50% of your population less than 120 years ago were Bedouins). The Iraqi Shia Arabs that you like to defend are more Bedouins themselves by origin than anyone else in Iraq. If they are not Gypsies or Africans.

The same Saudi Arabians (Hijazis) created 3 of the 11 largest empires the world has ever seen. More than any other ethnic group to date. Conquered your entity as well and founded most of the important cities including the capital and second largest city.

Arabians were always known for their warrior nature hence why most of the Arabian Peninsula never got conquered and why a country like Oman had an empire that controlled large territory in the Middle East, Africa and South Asia until the 20th century where the Brits came.

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## doritos

al-Hasani said:


> Says the clown whose army has lost 2000 soldiers to a few lightly armed Anbaris with guerrilla tactics in Al-Anbar in 3 months time. Don't make us laugh.
> 
> The same Saudi Arabians (Hijazis) created 3 of the 11 largest empires the world has ever seen. More than any other ethnic group to date.
> 
> Arabians were always known for their warrior nature hence why most of the Arabian Peninsula never got conquered and why a country like Oman had an empire that controlled large territory in the Middle East, Africa and South Asia until the 20th century where the Brits came.



Urban & unconventional warfare can bring higher loss of soldiers then a visible enemy, see Israel 2006 they had the same issue.

Anyway I don't care that much, tell the homo yazeed to quit stalking & asking for dick he keeps coming at me, then I will quit talking about the Saudis.


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## al-Hasani

doritos said:


> Urban & unconventional warfare can bring higher loss of soldiers then a visible enemy, see Israel 2006 they had the same issue.
> 
> Anyway I don't care that much, tell the homo yazeed to quit stalking & asking for dick he keeps coming at me, then I will quit talking about the Saudis.



Does not make them a lesser joke because of that. In comparison the Saudi Arabian army defeated the Houthis and humiliated them in a much, much more difficult terrain. Nearly 3000 meters tall mountain terrain. On the other hand your supposedly superman army cannot defeat a few Anbaris lightly armed and a few hundred foreigners, some not even speaking Arabic, in deserts or open flat areas and cities. They even make giant parades in daylight.

If I was you I would keep silent.

Now instead of making idiotic posts then tell me which Muslim country could defeat the US let alone any country? Nobody. Hence there is no point even discussing this. They could, just like Israel, annihilate all of the ME in a few minutes and nobody in the ME could do anything about that.

End of discussion.

Anyway this is a moronic troll thread that ignores history and only looks at the past 50 years and 1-2 wars against a undisputed world power and the most powerful regional power that fought for their very existence (atomic power too). Also this only concerns 3-4 Arab countries out of nearly 25 Arab countries.

Welcome to PDF.

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## The Sultan Erdogan

Arabs should get training from my military and Pakistan.

Also, the culture of favorism must stop in Arab world. Your stupid prince can't become the number 1 officer...but then why does he achieve the highest position in armed forces? lol

Military must be completely separate from royal family bullshit. But then again, if that happens, then Arabs face a problem of coup from military. In short, there is no hope for Arabs

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## A.P. Richelieu

doritos said:


> Were the SAA issues because of lack of training, lack of gear or inexperienced commanders


There is an episode in "Greatest Tank Battles" about this.
The Syrians were using Soviet style attacks against prepared positions. Israelis had measured distances
so they could pick off Syrian tanks at long range, while beeing protected by reverse slope.
Still it was a close call due to the large numerical superiority of the Syrians.

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## doritos

al-Hasani said:


> Does not make them a lesser joke because of that. In comparison the Saudi Arabian army defeated the Houthis and humiliated them in a much, much more difficult terrain. Nearly 3000 meters tall mountain terrain. On the other hand your supposedly superman army cannot defeat a few Anbaris lightly armed and a few hundred foreigners, some not even speaking Arabic, in deserts or open flat areas and cities. They even make giant parades in daylight.
> 
> If I was you I would keep silent.
> 
> Now instead of making idiotic posts then tell me which Muslim country could defeat the US let alone any country? Nobody. Hence there is no point even discussing this. They could, just like Israel, annihilate all of the ME in a few minutes and nobody in the ME could do anything about that.
> 
> End of discussion.
> 
> Anyway this is a moronic troll thread that ignores history and only looks at the past 50 years and 1-2 wars against a undisputed world power and the most powerful regional power that fought for their very existence (atomic power too). Also this only concerns 3-4 Arab countries out of nearly 25 Arab countries.
> 
> Welcome to PDF.




2000 is a fake number spread. We don't have US drones helping, no air force, no effective intelligence all of it was destroyed in 2003, setting that up is way harder then you imagine, building an effective soldier that can fight isn't the hard part. The issues are not with soldiers but with the commanders in our part.
Our problem is mainly the lack of effective command, lack of intel agency, lack of air power & retards in high positions.

Saudis used the air force and MLRS for the most part, little infantry-infantry contact. The former resulted in a lot of collateral damage, nothing to boast about with all that equipment.


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## Falcon29

Sinan said:


> Mate, i'm not calling Arabs, weak or anything. I'm just making a comparison. I'm not talking about wars lost or won. We are undefeated in Anatolia for a nearly a millenia. Never lost our independence to any one.
> 
> IMO opinion Arabs got divided beyond repair. I think only an Arab great power can unite Arabs.



I know what you mean brother. 

Even if we united, we don't have a strategy, only Arab nations to fight in modern wars are Egypt, Syria, Jordan and the rest sent armed brigades.



The Sultan Erdogan said:


> Arabs should get training from my military and Pakistan.
> 
> Also, the culture of favorism must stop in Arab world. Your stupid prince can't become the number 1 officer...but then why does he achieve the highest position in armed forces? lol
> 
> Military must be completely separate from royal family bullshit. But then again, if that happens, then Arabs face a problem of coup from military. In short, there is no hope for Arabs



Train us then.

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## The Sultan Erdogan

[quote="Hazzy997, post: 5475334, member: 145988"



Train us then. [/quote] 

You know, in college, we used to have "surprise quizes" .....I am thinking of deploying the same method of practical training.

Some day, I'll just launch an invasion of Arab lands...kinda like a "surprise quiz" ...if Arab armies defended their territories, it mean they are on right path...and if they couldn't, well we'll see then what to do.

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## Falcon29

The Sultan Erdogan said:


> [quote="Hazzy997, post: 5475334, member: 145988"
> 
> 
> 
> Train us then.



You know, in college, we used to have "surprise quizes" .....I am thinking of deploying the same method of practical training.

Some day, I'll just launch an invasion of Arab lands...kinda like a "surprise quiz" ...if Arab armies defended their territories, it mean they are on right path...and if they couldn't, well we'll see then what to do.[/quote]

Not Arabs, Palestinians.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> the egyptian attack could never have done anything any army in the world out of the range of their air defence in open deserts this attack didnt help syria or Egypt this attack helped isreal and if not for airbone and commandos stoping isreali advance to ismalia and suez things would gone worse but after all Egypt accomplished her goals set from the start of the war



Egypt had a brilliant strategy to start with, by staying within the SAM cover.
The Israeli staff had a theory that Egypt needed a much better Air Force to be able to attack,
and they knew that the Soviets refused to sell Egypt what It wanted, so they did not really
believe that Egypt would attack until a few hours before the actual attack.

Advancing past the SAM cover then nullified the initial success and allowed the Israeli push
over the Suez canal, and the Israelis could then kill off the SAMs with combined arms ground forces.
Also resulted in the surrounding of Egypt's Third Army, and really nothing to stop an advance towards Kairo
except a U.N. resolution or direct Soviet intervention, so technically Egypt lost the war.
Israel of course lost its sense of total superiority it gained in the six-day war 1967.

The ensuing peace agreement was a win for both Israel and Egypt.


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## Mahmoud_EGY

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Egypt had a brilliant strategy to start with, by staying within the SAM cover.
> The Israeli staff had a theory that Egypt needed a much better Air Force to be able to attack,
> and they knew that the Soviets refused to sell Egypt what It wanted, so they did not really
> believe that Egypt would attack until a few hours before the actual attack.
> 
> Advancing past the SAM cover then nullified the initial success and allowed the Israeli push
> over the Suez canal, and the Israelis could then kill off the SAMs with combined arms ground forces.
> Also resulted in the surrounding of Egypt's Third Army, and really nothing to stop an advance towards Kairo
> except a U.N. resolution or direct Soviet intervention, so technically Egypt lost the war.
> Israel of course lost its sense of total superiority it gained in the six-day war 1967.
> 
> The ensuing peace agreement was a win for both Israel and Egypt.


no we did not lose the war our objectives in the start 
1 clear the bar liv line 
2 advance and set up defensive postions within our air defence 
3 wait for isreal counter attack and destroy it 
4 inflict heavy losses on isreal untill they are ready to start peace talks and give us sainai back
we did all of this 
the gap and crossing of isreals into africa 
by the time they did cross they had already suffered heavy losses isreal with their limted manpower could not have countinue war for long isreali economy was in bad shape because the solder who was fighting was also the doctor or engineer or worker so in war their economy stop and they could coolopse if they fight any longer you say they could enter cairo they tried taking suez and ismalia small cites and failed 
the surrounded 3rd army
3rd army could have attacked on 1 side even if they will die they would also take alot with them we had the republican gurds in cairo and we could have asked algira for help 
we had the advantge of time and manpower 
we made 1 mistake and we suffered for it but we won

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## al-Hasani

In any case this post below of mine is very relevant and closes the debate once and for all.



al-Hasani said:


> What a stupid thread where a few moronic and envious trolls are roaming lose like animals that escaped from the local zoo.
> 
> *Arabs created 3 of the 11 largest empires the world have ever seen. That's a better achievement than any other ethnic group in the top 15. So any criticism can only be laughed at especially by us Hijazis who created all that. *
> 
> List of largest empires - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also which Arabs is the article talking about? For all I know then the Arab world has not fought more than a few wars with non-Arabs in the past 100 years and most of them have been won. Outside of confrontations with USA - the world's undisputed superpower which attacked 1 Arab country (Iraq) and then an atomic power Israel that defeated 3-4 Arab armies while fighting for their very existence. No other Muslim countries could have done anything against those two countries.
> 
> Arabs were historically one of the strongest warriors as history is a clear witness of but today it's all about technology and for obvious reasons military powers like USA, Israel etc. will triumph against much worser equipped militaries.
> 
> Had those wars been fought centuries ago the outcome would have been different.
> 
> What are a bunch of foreigners doing in this thread badmouthing us when we ruled their countries or territories for centuries, conquered them religiously, culturally, linguistically and ethnically?
> 
> Stupid and useless thread.
> 
> @Aeronaut troll thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Laughable is it not? But it is PDF so expected.

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## Falcon29

@al-Hasani 

This thread is not for Arab bashing, it's about discussing our modern strategy. Don't be offended so quickly.

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## al-Hasani

Hazzy997 said:


> @al-Hasani
> 
> This thread is not for Arab bashing, it's about discussing our modern strategy. Don't be offended so quickly.



Yes, but I just reacted to the many troll posts by foreigners that 1) firstly have no clue about the historical facts, 2) that are making dumb and untrue comments, 3) that troll on issues that do not concern them.

Also which lost wars against foreigners? Iraq lost twice against USA and the coalition. Big deal. Like anyone expected differently and like any country in the ME, Muslim or any non-atomic power would have won or ended differently.

On the other hand one Arab country (Iraq) did not lose against Iran which is a 2.5 more populous country (nearly) and 4 times bigger.

Oman nearly defeated the British Empire outside of their homeland in Eastern Africa and the Swahili Coast in the 1880's as the only non-European entity.

Isreal? That's already been discussed 4-5 times in this thread so it is pointless. 3-4 Arab countries took part directly against an atomic power that fought for their very existence and who fought from a defensive position. We all know what happened and that it is the past. 85% of all Arab countries had nothing to do with those 2 wars either.

Other than that which lost wars? The Arab countries that were occupied by foreigners defeated them and kicked them out by large and those who were never colonized are still standing to this day.

*Of course the West have had an military edge for the past 400 years or so. No surprise. But we Arabs had it for nearly 1000 years and created 3 of the 11 largest empires in human history more than any other ethnic group in the top 15. Likewise we ME people were leading in warfare for thousands of years.
*
I don't know what those foreigners were expecting? That "we" would destroy USA?

Also what's all this nonsense of lack of nationalism? Arabs are one of the most nationalistic and proud people on earth. Everyone that knows Arabs know this. There would not be 20+ independent Arab countries had this not been the case.


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## Falcon29

@al-Hasani 

You know in 1948 we actually had control of almost all of Palestine and the Iraqi army kept going on the offensive until our commanders told our brigades to pull back and that's when Israel was flowing with weapons during the cease fire....

I really believe we could do it again but the modern aspect of war is different, they will threaten our civilian life to provide as their deterrence. I'm still disappointed no Arabs send weapons to Palestine.


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## al-Hasani

Hazzy997 said:


> @al-Hasani
> 
> You know in 1948 we actually had control of almost all of Palestine and the Iraqi army kept going on the offensive until our commanders told our brigades to pull back and that's when Israel was flowing with weapons during the cease fire....
> 
> I really believe we could do it again but the modern aspect of war is different, they will threaten our civilian life to provide as their deterrence. I'm still disappointed no Arabs send weapons to Palestine.



First of all Israel has the backing of the entire Western world with USA, UK, France, Germany at the helm. Basically all of NATO. Now an Arab world in a mostly chaotic state with internal wars and conflicts, political instability cannot in this time and age annihilate Israel and throw our Jewish cousins into the Red Sea or Mediterranean Sea. Israel is an atomic power and one of the military powers of the world and certainly ME region. They are battle-hardened as well.

Also in year 2013 few Arabs are willing to sacrifice their lives for Palestine or any entity. Palestinians included. Most want peace hence there is rarely any real military conflict going on. Let alone Muslims or people as such.

I have to say once again that the two state solution is the only way forward. History is sometimes a real bitch and it's a coincidence that Israel even exists today but it does and there is little I, you or anybody else can do.

Also to be honest. I am not against an Jewish homeland. It's not like we Arabs do not have space enough. But obviously as an Palestinian you look at it differently and understandably so. But whenever we Arabs discuss this cursed conflict is always mentioned. I mean it's getting tiring. No disrespect.

In any case before this turns into an Palestine-Israel debate I just wanted to give my two cents about this thread.

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## Falcon29

@al-Hasani

Let it get tiring, we're going to be busy starting conflicts in our nations and bragging about 'successes' we have arming groups. Yet we don't do a thing for Palestine, Palestinians are not afraid to fight, we defended ourselves in 2012.

This is mysterious you're saying this. We can do something about it, only Zionists and their collaborators want an occupying regime to be safe.


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## al-Hasani

Hazzy997 said:


> @al-Hasani
> 
> Let it get tiring, we're going to be busy starting conflicts in our nations and bragging about 'successes' we have arming groups. Yet we don't do a thing for Palestine, Palestinians are not afraid to fight, we defended ourselves in 2012.
> 
> This is mysterious you're saying this. We can do something about it, only Zionists and their collaborators want an occupying regime to be safe.



Doubt that anyone is bragging about anything when it comes to Syria. It's a tragedy. As was Libya where 30.000 people died. Of course none of that is anything compared to how the Europeans were killing each other off less than 69 years ago where 60 million lost their lives in WW2 and 20 million in WW1. Still not an example to follow but if you have dictatorships that are murdering their own people this can be the result.

This might sound surprising but as I see it the things are moving in the right direction. It's just a historical period with all those revolts and such periods are never pleasant anywhere as history has shown.

I actually consider it a little miracle that Egypt with a nearly 100 million big population was this peaceful and that most Arab countries that experienced revolts and removals of dictators were fairly peaceful with the exception of Libya and Syria.

Anyway not the thread for all this cheap talk.

Anyway what is your military solution? A realistic solution.


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## Falcon29

@al-Hasani 

We can't at this moment come up with a realistic military solution. I just think if after this year no results are achieved through talks and neither the UN then we need to send weapons to the West Bank and Gaza. Jordan and Arabs can train them, in Gaza just send and they know what to do with them. The least that can be done is for Egypt to ease restrictions on Gaza and Arab world to take lead in West Bank. Why can't these minuscule things be done?


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## RazPaK

Arab broblems are way too complicated.

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## al-Hasani

Hazzy997 said:


> @al-Hasani
> 
> We can't at this moment come up with a realistic military solution. I just think if after this year no results are achieved through talks and neither the UN then we need to send weapons to the West Bank and Gaza. Jordan and Arabs can train them, in Gaza just send and they know what to do with them. The least that can be done is for Egypt to ease restrictions on Gaza and Arab world to take lead in West Bank. Why can't these minuscule things be done?



Education and more education. Doing the same things that the Israeli lobby has done so successfully since Israel's founding. Get vocal. Limit retards from influencing the cause in a negative way. Truly unite as a people regardless of whether you support the MB, are Muslim, Christian, left or right wing politically etc.

You want to send a few weapons that are no match for Israel? Then what? Why would Jordan or Egypt risk sanctions, wars etc. just to arm a few militants in Gaza or the West Bank?

None of that are foreseeable solutions. One should not pick up fights when one is the weaker party unless you have a bulletproof planned worked out or outside of it being in defense. I don't see that to be the case right now nor do I think that the regional situation is right for such solutions with a Syria burning next door, unrest in Egypt and partial although small unrest in Lebanon.

But that's just me. I don't rule any Arab country.


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## Falcon29

@al-Hasani 

We won't use them, just as deterrence. Even if they sanction you the Arab world will be on its way to becoming free, we know very week we can't influence our region and the west is griping tight to it for our resources. If we become free it will be the greatest feeling ever and we would be on our way to dominate against all non Arabs. :


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## al-Hasani

Hazzy997 said:


> @al-Hasani
> 
> We won't use them, just as deterrence. Even if they sanction you the Arab world will be on its way to becoming free, we know very week we can't influence our region and the west is griping tight to it for our resources. If we become free it will be the greatest feeling ever and we would be on our way to dominate against all non Arabs. :



We already had our 1000 year long domination and created 3 of the 11 biggest empires the world have ever seen outside of our huge religious, linguistic and cultural influence. But the world is different today. We live in a globalized world. Today empires are long gone and money and education is king.

I am not sure what you mean with being free? Nobody in the Arab world who lives in states that have good ties/are allies with countries such as USA or the West feel limited for that reason. If anything only due to certain laws and rulers. But the outside world has little to do with this.

No country is 100% free in that way or self-reliant since we all depend on each other today.
I must say that I dislike politics and I am extremely tired of ME affairs.

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## Falcon29

al-Hasani said:


> We already had our 1000 year long domination and created 3 of the 11 biggest empires the world have ever seen outside of our huge religious, linguistic and cultural influence. But the world is different today. We live in a globalized world. Today empires are long gone and money and education is king.
> 
> I am not sure what you mean with being free? Nobody in the Arab world who lives in states that have good ties/are allies with countries such as USA or the West feel limited for that reason. If anything only due to certain laws and rulers. But the outside world has little to do with this.
> 
> No country is 100% free in that way or self-reliant since we all depend on each other today.
> I must say that I dislike politics and I am extremely tired of ME affairs.



I want to punish the world for imperialism still. 

I love ME affairs, it's kickass, I'm just waiting till all of it spills over into Israel and we become free.

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## al-Hasani

Hazzy997 said:


> I want to punish the world for imperialism still.
> 
> I love ME affairs, it's kickass, I'm just waiting till all of it spills over into Israel and we become free.



I do understand the likeness of looking back in history or wanting change. It's normal for every generation. Our parents or grandparents were no different. Nor will our children or grandchildren be any different. They will hate certain periods while glorify and romanticize others. Which we might not understand the exact reasons for.

Being a globalized person of an mixed heritage, having lived on 3 different continents and speaking quite a few languages and having frequent interactions with people of all colors, religions etc. has impacted me in a distinctive way. Although I am very proud to be what I am and to arguably belong to the most important region of the world (ME) historically and an ancient and proud people (Arabs and Semites) paternally that has shaped the world tremmendously I take good things from all corners of the world. After all we are all humans, children of Allah (SWT) and "strangely" enough all related anyway.

Look we should always strive for excellence, improve as a people and persons and if Muslims try to follow Islam to our best abilities. But politics for me is a dirty matter most of the time especially in our time period. Especially in the ME. I am quite honestly sick and tired of it. Not that it is any different outside of the ME. It's the same just a bit different.

Nevertheless I often see few changes and that just discourages you from caring. For instance there are certain issues that I do not believe will change for the better in my lifetime.

This makes me careless and makes me focus on different issues.


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## Mahmoud_EGY

Hazzy997 said:


> I want to punish the world for imperialism still.
> 
> I love ME affairs, it's kickass, I'm just waiting till all of it spills over into Israel and we become free.


you can hate the world or you can think in a good way am i a good son to my country can i do anything to serve my people plan your moves based on what you can do .everyone no matter who he is and where he is can make a difference

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## Falcon29

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> you can hate the world or you can think in a good way am i a good son to my country can i do anything to serve my people plan your moves based on what you can do .everyone no matter who he is and where he is can make a difference



Relax I don't hate the world. 

You guys can't be serious, it's Israel which hates and occupies my people. We want our rights back that's all. And we Muslims should all work towards educated future and true Islam.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> no we did not lose the war our objectives in the start
> 1 clear the bar liv line
> 2 advance and set up defensive postions within our air defence
> 3 wait for isreal counter attack and destroy it
> 4 inflict heavy losses on isreal untill they are ready to start peace talks and give us sainai back
> we did all of this
> the gap and crossing of isreals into africa
> by the time they did cross they had already suffered heavy losses isreal with their limted manpower could not have countinue war for long isreali economy was in bad shape because the solder who was fighting was also the doctor or engineer or worker so in war their economy stop and they could coolopse if they fight any longer you say they could enter cairo they tried taking suez and ismalia small cites and failed
> the surrounded 3rd army
> 3rd army could have attacked on 1 side even if they will die they would also take alot with them we had the republican gurds in cairo and we could have asked algira for help
> we had the advantge of time and manpower
> we made 1 mistake and we suffered for it but we won



Having Israel across the canal hardly counts as destroying the counter attack, so objective 3 was not met,
leaving the Egypt Army was in an untenable position at the end of the war.
No supplies, and no SAM cover so the Third Army would have been annihilated by the Israeli Air Force.
That is not the traditional military victory.

This assumes continued U.S. arms supplies and no Russian intervention.
Don't disagree that the war was no good for Israeli economy, and they were running out of supplies.
War would not have continued for long, without the massive resupply from the US.

Peace with Egypt is a strategic goal of Israel.
Peace with Israel is a strategic goal of Egypt.
Both achieved their strategic goals as a result of the war.
I think that Egypt might have reached that goal without a war.

Then one can ask oneself, if control of Sinai is desirable in todays situation.
Do hope that Egypt can sort it out though.

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## Mahmoud_EGY

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Having Israel across the canal hardly counts as destroying the counter attack, so objective 3 was not met,
> leaving the Egypt Army was in an untenable position at the end of the war.
> No supplies, and no SAM cover so the Third Army would have been annihilated by the Israeli Air Force.
> That is not the traditional military victory.
> 
> This assumes continued U.S. arms supplies and no Russian intervention.
> Don't disagree that the war was no good for Israeli economy, and they were running out of supplies.
> War would not have continued for long, without the massive resupply from the US.


my point is if the war continued we can take losses and they cant after the losses they already suffered and we should not forget that our air force didnt take many losses during the war you can google battle of mansora during the octobar war so cover of our migs could replace our SAMs even if it would not as effective but it will work also the soviets could have supply us with new SAMs we could set up outside of cairo and have the war going and see who can take looses more


> Peace with Egypt is a strategic goal of Israel.
> Peace with Israel is a strategic goal of Egypt.
> Both achieved their strategic goals as a result of the war.


we got our land back and we got peace 2 goals that was worth fighting for we saved many lives by this peace and we hope we will forever have peace and it could find its way in the whole region 


> I think that Egypt might have reached that goal without a war.


no even if isreal agree to give us sainai back without war their terms would unacceptable also after the 67 war we needed this victory i cant imagine if untill this day we didnt get our land back Egyptian faith in our armed forces would so low the Egyptian armed forces has reputation to protect we are the first army in world we have a great history that we have to live up to 


> Then one can ask oneself, if control of Sinai is desirable in todays situation.
> Do hope that Egypt can sort it out though.


of course it is even if the 90 milion Egyptian die in it it is still part of our country our army is doing great in sainai soon sainai would be safe place with no terrorists in it


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## A.P. Richelieu

Israel had < 1% of their Army killed and < 2% wounded.
Equipment losses much higher.
With resupply, Israel could continue war for quite some time.


Mahmoud_EGY said:


> my point is if the war continued we can take losses and they cant after the losses they already suffered and we should not forget that our air force didnt take many losses during the war you can google battle of mansora during the octobar war so cover of our migs could replace our SAMs even if it would not as effective but it will work also the soviets could have supply us with new SAMs we could set up outside of cairo and have the war going and see who can take looses more
> 
> we got our land back and we got peace 2 goals that was worth fighting for we saved many lives by this peace and we hope we will forever have peace and it could find its way in the whole region
> 
> no even if isreal agree to give us sainai back without war their terms would unacceptable also after the 67 war we needed this victory i cant imagine if untill this day we didnt get our land back Egyptian faith in our armed forces would so low the Egyptian armed forces has reputation to protect we are the first army in world we have a great history that we have to live up to


Israel had less than 1% killed and less than 2% wounded, so I think they were not exhausted
from a personell point of view. 

Battle of Mansora is debated. What is clear is that 
the Israeli Air Force was not able to continue according to plans for ground attacks.
Israeli and Egypt claims for air victories differ wildly. The story about one Egyptian pilot 
saving the ejected Israeli Phantom pilot is a little strange considering the Phantom has two crew 
members. Some Egyptians believe that Egyptian reports were doctored afterwards 
to support Mubaraks reputation.

The Egyptian Air Force would have had more problems protecting the Third Army.

You are right that they could not sustain this loss rate for years, but I think they could have achieved 
a decisive victory way before that.
Question is of course: Then What?

Dont think the Israelis would want to (could) occupy Egypt, so a likely result would be status quo,
Back to the Bar Lev line with Egyptian POW released after some time. 

All in all, the end result is bettet.


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## Mahmoud_EGY

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Israel had < 1% of their Army killed and < 2% wounded.
> Equipment losses much higher.
> With resupply, Israel could continue war for quite some time.
> 
> Israel had less than 1% killed and less than 2% wounded, so I think they were not exhausted
> from a personell point of view.
> 
> Battle of Mansora is debated. What is clear is that
> the Israeli Air Force was not able to continue according to plans for ground attacks.
> Israeli and Egypt claims for air victories differ wildly. The story about one Egyptian pilot
> saving the ejected Israeli Phantom pilot is a little strange considering the Phantom has two crew
> members. Some Egyptians believe that Egyptian reports were doctored afterwards
> to support Mubaraks reputation.
> 
> The Egyptian Air Force would have had more problems protecting the Third Army.
> 
> You are right that they could not sustain this loss rate for years, but I think they could have achieved
> a decisive victory way before that.
> Question is of course: Then What?
> 
> Dont think the Israelis would want to (could) occupy Egypt, so a likely result would be status quo,
> Back to the Bar Lev line with Egyptian POW released after some time.
> 
> All in all, the end result is bettet.


i think no one in the world can know for sure what would happen if the war continued so lets agree on some things every one know
1 the Egyptian army did what he can and no army in the world can do any better with the conditions at the time
2 Egypt achived her goal which is getting sainai back
3 the isreali crossing into the canal was bold attack some people may call it crazy but it did its damage
4 this war came after 6 year of the 67 war which Egypt had suffered great losses in it
but i did find some thing intersting from wikipdia


> Israel Radio claimed, early the following morning, that the IAF had shot down 15 Egyptian aircraft, a figure subsequently reduced to seven.


not a good sign Egyptian radio in the 67 war was also in this mess this means that they dont want the isrealis to know what really happned
Air Battle of El Mansoura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Gabriel92

*IF it is true.. *

*What Really Happened in the “Yom Kippur” War? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names*


*What Really Happened in the “Yom Kippur” War?*



> Here in Moscow I recently received a dark-blue folder dated 1975. It contains one of the most well-buried secrets of Middle Eastern and of US diplomacy. The secret file, written by the Soviet Ambassador in Cairo, Vladimir M. Vinogradov, apparently a draft for a memorandum addressed to the Soviet politbureau, describes the 1973 October War as a collusive enterprise between US, Egyptian and Israeli leaders, orchestrated by Henry Kissinger. If you are an Egyptian reader this revelation is likely to upset you. I, an Israeli who fought the Egyptians in the 1973 war, was equally upset and distressed, – yet still excited by the discovery. For an American it is likely to come as a shock.
> 
> According to the Vinogradov memo (to be published by us in full in the Russian weekly _Expert_ next Monday), Anwar al-Sadat, holder of the titles of President, Prime Minister, ASU Chairman, Chief Commander, Supreme Military Ruler, entered into conspiracy with the Israelis, betrayed his ally Syria, condemned the Syrian army to destruction and Damascus to bombardment, allowed General Sharon’s tanks to cross without hindrance to the western bank of the Suez Canal, and actually planned a defeat of the Egyptian troops in the October War. Egyptian soldiers and officers bravely and successfully fought the Israeli enemy – too successfully for Sadat’s liking as he began the war in order to allow for the US comeback to the Middle East.
> 
> He was not the only conspirator: according to Vinogradov, the grandmotherly Golda Meir knowingly sacrificed two thousand of Israel’s best fighters – she possibly thought fewer would be killed — in order to give Sadat his moment of glory and to let the US secure its positions in the Middle East. The memo allows for a completely new interpretation of the Camp David Treaty, as one achieved by deceit and treachery.
> 
> Vladimir Vinogradov was a prominent and brilliant Soviet diplomat; he served as ambassador to Tokyo in the 1960s, to Cairo from 1970 to 1974, co-chairman of the Geneva Peace Conference, ambassador to Teheran during the Islamic revolution, the USSR Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation. He was a gifted painter and a prolific writer; his archive has hundreds of pages of unique observations and notes covering international affairs, but the place of honor goes to his Cairo diaries, and among others, descriptions of his hundreds of meetings with Sadat and the full sequence of the war as he observed it unfold at Sadat’s hq as the big decisions were made. When published, these notes will allow to re-evaluate the post-Nasser period of Egyptian history.
> 
> Vinogradov arrived to Cairo for Nasser’s funeral and remained there as the Ambassador. He recorded the creeping coup of Sadat, least bright of Nasser’s men, who became Egypt’s president by chance, as he was the vice-president at Nasser’s death. Soon he dismissed, purged and imprisoned practically all important Egyptian politicians, the comrades-in-arms of Gamal Abd el Nasser, and dismantled the edifice of Nasser’s socialism. Vinogradov was an astute observer; not a conspiracy cuckoo. Far from being headstrong and doctrinaire, he was a friend of Arabs and a consistent supporter and promoter of a lasting and just peace between the Arabs and Israel, a peace that would meet Palestinian needs and ensure Jewish prosperity.
> 
> The pearl of his archive is the file called _The Middle Eastern Games_. It contains some 20 typewritten pages edited by hand in blue ink, apparently a draft for a memo to the Politburo and to the government, dated January 1975, soon after his return from Cairo. The file contains the deadly secret of the collusion he observed. It is written in lively and highly readable Russian, not in the bureaucratese we’d expect. Two pages are added to the file in May 1975; they describe Vinogradov’s visit to Amman and his informal talks with Abu Zeid Rifai, the Prime Minister, and his exchange of views with the Soviet Ambassador in Damascus. Vinogradov did not voice his opinions until 1998, and even then he did not speak as openly as in this draft. Actually, when the suggestion of collusion was presented to him by the Jordanian prime minister, being a prudent diplomat, he refused to discuss it.
> 
> The official version of the October war holds that on October 6, 1973, in conjunction with Hafez al-Assad of Syria, Anwar as-Sadat launched a surprise attack against Israeli forces. They crossed the Canal and advanced a few miles into the occupied Sinai. As the war progressed, tanks of General Ariel Sharon crossed the Suez Canal and encircled the Egyptian Third Army. The ceasefire negotiations eventually led to the handshake at the White House.
> 
> For me, the Yom Kippur War (as we called it) was an important part of my autobiography. A young paratrooper, I fought that war, crossed the canal, seized Gabal Ataka heights, survived shelling and face-to-face battles, buried my buddies, shot the man-eating red dogs of the desert and the enemy tanks. My unit was ferried by helicopters into the desert where we severed the main communication line between the Egyptian armies and its home base, the Suez-Cairo highway. Our location at 101 km to Cairo was used for the first cease fire talks; so I know that war not by word of mouth, and it hurts to learn that I and my comrades-at-arms were just disposable tokens in the ruthless game we – ordinary people – lost. Obviously I did not know it then, for me the war was a surprise, but then, I was not a general.
> 
> Vinogradov dispels the idea of surprise: in his view, both the canal crossing by the Egyptians and the inroads by Sharon were planned and agreed upon in advance by Kissinger, Sadat and Meir. The plan included the destruction of the Syrian army as well.
> 
> At first, he asks some questions: how the crossing could be a surprise if the Russians evacuated their families a few days before the war? The concentration of the forces was observable and could not escape Israeli attention. Why did the Egyptian forces not proceed after the crossing but stood still? Why did they have no plans for advancing? Why there was a forty km-wide unguarded gap between the 2d and the 3d armies, the gap that invited Sharon’s raid? How could Israeli tanks sneak to the western bank of the Canal? Why did Sadat refuse to stop them? Why were there no reserve forces on the western bank of the Canal?
> 
> Vinogradov takes a leaf from Sherlock Holmes who said: when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. He writes: These questions can’t be answered if Sadat is to be considered a true patriot of Egypt. But they can be answered in full, if we consider a possibility of collusion between Sadat, the US and Israeli leadership – a conspiracy in which each participant pursued his own goals. A conspiracy in which each participant did not know the full details of other participants’ game. A conspiracy in which each participant tried to gain more ground despite the overall agreement between them.
> 
> *Sadat’s Plans*
> 
> Before the war Sadat was at the nadir of his power: in Egypt and abroad he had lost prestige. The least educated and least charismatic of Nasser’s followers, Sadat was isolated. He needed a war, a limited war with Israel that would not end with defeat. Such a war would release the pressure in the army and he would regain his authority. The US agreed to give him a green light for the war, something the Russians never did. The Russians protected Egypt’s skies, but they were against wars. For that, Sadat had to rely upon the US and part with the USSR. He was ready to do so as he loathed socialism. He did not need victory, just no defeat; he wanted to explain his failure to win by deficient Soviet equipment. That is why the army was given the minimal task: crossing the Canal and hold the bridgehead until the Americans entered the game.
> 
> *Plans of the US*
> 
> During decolonisation the US lost strategic ground in the Middle East with its oil, its Suez Canal, its vast population. Its ally Israel had to be supported, but the Arabs were growing stronger all the time. Israel had to be made more flexible, for its brutal policies interfered with the US plans. So the US had to keep Israel as its ally but at the same time Israel’s arrogance had to be broken. The US needed a chance to “save” Israel after allowing the Arabs to beat the Israelis for a while. So the US allowed Sadat to begin a limited war.
> 
> *Israel *
> 
> Israel’s leaders had to help the US, its main provider and supporter. The US needed to improve its positions in the Middle East, as in 1973 they had only one friend and ally, King Feisal. (Kissinger told Vinogradov that Feisal tried to educate him about the evilness of Jews and Communists.) If and when the US was to recover its position in the Middle East, the Israeli position would improve drastically. Egypt was a weak link, as Sadat disliked the USSR and the progressive forces in the country, so it could be turned. Syria could be dealt with militarily, and broken.
> 
> The Israelis and Americans decided to let Sadat take the Canal while holding the mountain passes of Mittla and Giddi, a better defensive line anyway. This was actually Rogers’ plan of 1971, acceptable to Israel. But this should be done in fighting, not given up for free.
> 
> As for Syria, it was to be militarily defeated, thoroughly. That is why the Israeli Staff did sent all its available troops to the Syrian border, while denuding the Canal though the Egyptian army was much bigger than the Syrian one. Israeli troops at the Canal were to be sacrificed in this game; they were to die in order to bring the US back into the Middle East.
> 
> However, the plans of the three partners were somewhat derailed by the factors on the ground: it is the usual problem with conspiracies; nothing works as it should, Vinogradov writes in his memo to be published in full next week in Moscow’s _Expert_.
> 
> Sadat’s crooked game was spoiled to start with. His presumptions did not work out. Contrary to his expectations, the USSR supported the Arab side and began a massive airlift of its most modern military equipment right away. The USSR took the risk of confrontation with the US; Sadat had not believed they would because the Soviets were adamant against the war, before it started. His second problem, according to Vinogradov, was the superior quality of Russian weapons in the hands of Egyptian soldiers — better than the western weapons in the Israelis’ hands.
> 
> As an Israeli soldier of the time I must confirm the Ambassador’s words. The Egyptians had the legendary Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifles, the best gun in the world, while we had FN battle rifles that hated sand and water. We dropped our FNs and picked up their AKs at the first opportunity. They used anti-tank Sagger missiles, light, portable, precise, carried by one soldier. Saggers killed between 800 and 1200 Israeli tanks. We had old 105 mm recoilless jeep-mounted rifles, four men at a rifle (actually, a small cannon) to fight tanks. Only new American weapons redressed the imbalance.
> 
> Sadat did not expect the Egyptian troops taught by the Soviet specialists to better their Israeli enemy – but they did. They crossed the Canal much faster than planned and with much smaller losses. Arabs beating the Israelis – it was bad news for Sadat. He overplayed his hand. That is why the Egyptian troops stood still, like the sun upon Gibeon, and did not move. They waited for the Israelis, but at that time the Israeli army was fighting the Syrians. The Israelis felt somewhat safe from Sadat’s side and they sent all their army north. The Syrian army took the entire punch of Israeli forces and began its retreat. They asked Sadat to move forward, to take some of the heat off them, but Sadat refused. His army stood and did not move, though there were no Israelis between the Canal and the mountain passes. Syrian leader al Assad was convinced at that time that Sadat betrayed him, and he said so frankly to the Soviet ambassador in Damascus, Mr Muhitdinov, who passed this to Vinogradov. Vinogradov saw Sadat daily and asked him in real time why he was not advancing. He received no reasonable answer: Sadat muttered that he does not want to run all over Sinai looking for Israelis, that sooner or later they would come to him.
> 
> The Israeli leadership was worried: the war was not going as expected. There were big losses on the Syrian front, the Syrians retreated but each yard was hard fought; only Sadat’s passivity saved the Israelis from a reverse. The plan to for total Syrian defeat failed, but the Syrians could not effectively counterattack.
> 
> This was the time to punish Sadat: his army was too efficient, his advance too fast, and worse, his reliance upon the Soviets only grew due to the air bridge. The Israelis arrested their advance on Damascus and turned their troops southwards to Sinai. The Jordanians could at this time have cut off the North-to-South route and king Hussein proposed this to Sadat and Assad. Assad agreed immediately, but Sadat refused to accept the offer. He explained it to Vinogradov that he did not believe in the fighting abilities of the Jordanians. If they entered the war, Egypt would have to save them. At other times he said that it is better to lose the whole of Sinai than to lose a square yard on the Jordan: an insincere and foolish remark, in Vinogradov’s view. So the Israeli troops rolled southwards without hindrance.
> 
> During the war, we (the Israelis) also knew that if Sadat advanced, he would gain the whole of Sinai in no time; we entertained many hypotheses why he was standing still, none satisfactory. Vinogradov explains it well: Sadat ran off his script and was waited for US involvement. What he got was the deep raid of Sharon.
> 
> This breakthrough of the Israeli troops to the western bank of the Canal was the murkiest part of the war, Vinogradov writes. He asked Sadat’s military commanders at the beginning of the war why there is the forty km wide gap between the Second and the Third armies and was told that this was Sadat’s directive. The gap was not even guarded; it was left wide open like a Trojan backdoor in a computer program.
> 
> Sadat paid no attention to Sharon’s raid; he was indifferent to this dramatic development. Vinogradov asked him to deal with it when only the first five Israeli tanks crossed the Canal westwards; Sadat refused, saying it was of no military importance, just a “political move”, whatever that meant. He repeated this to Vinogradov later, when the Israeli foothold on the Western bank of became a sizeable bridgehead. Sadat did not listen to advice from Moscow, he opened the door for the Israelis into Africa.
> 
> This allows for two explanations, says Vinogradov: an impossible one, of the Egyptians’ total military ignorance and an improbable one, of Sadat’s intentions. The improbable wins, as Sherlock Holmes observed.
> 
> The Americans did not stop the Israeli advance right away, says Vinogradov, for they wanted to have a lever to push Sadat so he would not change his mind about the whole setup. Apparently the gap was build into the deployments for this purpose. So Vinogradov’s idea of “conspiracy” is that of dynamic collusion, similar to the collusion on Jordan between the Jewish Yishuv and Transjordan as described by Avi Shlaim: there were some guidelines and agreements, but they were liable to change, depending on the strength of the sides.
> 
> *Bottom line*
> 
> The US “saved” Egypt by stopping the advancing Israeli troops. With the passive support of Sadat, the US allowed Israel to hit Syria really hard.
> 
> The US-negotiated disengagement agreements with the UN troops in-between made Israel safe for years to come.
> 
> (In a different and important document, “Notes on Heikal’s book _Road to Ramadan_”, Vinogradov rejects the thesis of the unavoidability of Israeli-Arab wars: he says that as long as Egypt remains in the US thrall, such a war is unlikely. Indeed there have been no big wars since 1974, unless one counts Israeli “operations” in Lebanon and Gaza.)
> 
> The US “saved” Israel with military supplies.
> 
> Thanks to Sadat, the US came back to the Middle East and positioned itself as the only mediator and “honest broker” in the area.
> 
> Sadat began a violent anti-Soviet and antisocialist campaign, Vinogradov writes, trying to discredit the USSR. In the Notes, Vinogradov charges that Sadat spread many lies and disinformation to discredit the USSR in the Arab eyes. His main line was: the USSR could not and would not liberate Arab soil while the US could, would and did. Vinogradov explained elsewhere that the Soviet Union was and is against offensive wars, among other reasons because their end is never certain. However, the USSR was ready to go a long way to defend Arab states. As for liberation, the years since 1973 have proved that the US can’t or won’t deliver that, either – while the return of Sinai to Egypt in exchange for separate peace was always possible, without a war as well.
> 
> After the war, Sadat’s positions improved drastically. He was hailed as hero, Egypt took a place of honor among the Arab states. But in a year, Sadat’s reputation was in tatters again, and that of Egypt went to an all time low, Vinogradov writes.
> 
> The Syrians understood Sadat’s game very early: on October 12, 1973 when the Egyptian troops stood still and ceased fighting, President Hafez el Assad said to the Soviet ambassador that he is certain Sadat was intentionally betraying Syria. Sadat deliberately allowed the Israeli breakthrough to the Western bank of Suez, in order to give Kissinger a chance to intervene and realise his disengagement plan, said Assad to Jordanian Prime Minister Abu Zeid Rifai who told it to Vinogradov during a private breakfast they had in his house in Amman. The Jordanians also suspect Sadat played a crooked game, Vinogradov writes. However, the prudent Vinogradov refused to be drawn into this discussion though he felt that the Jordanians “read his thoughts.”
> 
> When Vinogradov was appointed co-chairman of the Geneva Peace Conference, he encountered a united Egyptian-American position aiming to disrupt the conference, while Assad refused even to take part in it. Vinogradov delivered him a position paper for the conference and asked whether it is acceptable for Syria. Assad replied: yes but for one line. Which one line, asked a hopeful Vinogradov, and Assad retorted: the line saying “Syria agrees to participate in the conference.” Indeed the conference came to nought, as did all other conferences and arrangements.
> 
> Though the suspicions voiced by Vinogradov in his secret document have been made by various military experts and historians, never until now they were made by a participant in the events, a person of such exalted position, knowledge, presence at key moments. Vinogradov’s notes allow us to decipher and trace the history of Egypt with its de-industrialisation, poverty, internal conflicts, military rule tightly connected with the phony war of 1973.
> 
> A few years after the war, Sadat was assassinated, and his hand-picked follower Hosni Mubarak began his long rule, followed by another participant of the October War, Gen Tantawi. Achieved by lies and treason, the Camp David Peace treaty still guards Israeli and American interests. Only now, as the post-Camp David regime in Egypt is on the verge of collapse, one may hope for change. Sadat’s name in the pantheon of Egyptian heroes was safe until now. In the end, all that is hidden will be made transparent.
> 
> Postscript. In 1975, Vinogradov could not predict that the 1973 war and subsequent treaties would change the world. They sealed the fate of the Soviet presence and eminence in the Arab world, though the last vestiges were destroyed by American might much later: in Iraq in 2003 and in Syria they are being undermined now. They undermined the cause of socialism in the world, which began its long fall. The USSR, the most successful state of 1972, an almost-winner of the Cold war, eventually lost it. Thanks to the American takeover of Egypt, petrodollar schemes were formed, and the dollar that began its decline in 1971 by losing its gold standard – recovered and became again a full-fledged world reserve currency. The oil of the Saudis and of sheikdoms being sold for dollars became the new lifeline for the American empire. Looking back, armed now with the Vinogradov Papers, we can confidently mark 1973-74 as a decisive turning point in our history.

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## The Sultan Erdogan

Gabriel92 said:


> *IF it is true.. *
> 
> *What Really Happened in the “Yom Kippur” War? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names*
> 
> 
> *What Really Happened in the “Yom Kippur” War?*



Not unlikely. 

I won't reveal much, but if you look at the past century---in the midst of all disasters, fighting, and turmoil---there is one force that is somehow becoming the victor again and again and again--- and people barely even realize it  Think.

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## Mahmoud_EGY

Gabriel92 said:


> *IF it is true.. *
> 
> *What Really Happened in the “Yom Kippur” War? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names*
> 
> 
> *What Really Happened in the “Yom Kippur” War?*


what a waste of time and a great insult to every soldier died in this war do you realy beleive this ?


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## Gabriel92

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> what a waste of time and a great insult to every soldier died in this war do you realy beleive this ?



i DIDN'T say i believe this.
But if it is really true,it's very shocking.


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## Mahmoud_EGY

Gabriel92 said:


> i DIDN'T say i believe this.
> But if it is really true,it's very shocking.


if 2 people fighting eachother with knives no on can tell what will happen no one in the world can stage a fake war


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## USAHawk785

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Having Israel across the canal hardly counts as destroying the counter attack, so objective 3 was not met,
> leaving the Egypt Army was in an untenable position at the end of the war.
> No supplies, and no SAM cover so the Third Army would have been annihilated by the Israeli Air Force.
> That is not the traditional military victory.
> 
> This assumes continued U.S. arms supplies and no Russian intervention.
> Don't disagree that the war was no good for Israeli economy, and they were running out of supplies.
> War would not have continued for long, without the massive resupply from the US.
> 
> Peace with Egypt is a strategic goal of Israel.
> Peace with Israel is a strategic goal of Egypt.
> Both achieved their strategic goals as a result of the war.
> I think that Egypt might have reached that goal without a war.
> 
> Then one can ask oneself, if control of Sinai is desirable in todays situation.
> Do hope that Egypt can sort it out though.




Just in the days of old, the city of Tyre was the gateway to Egypt. Retention of peace and stability in Tyre guarantees stability in Egypt.


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## Falcon29

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> what a waste of time and a great insult to every soldier died in this war do you realy beleive this ?



It's garbage, Egypt offered to recognize Israel and have relations with the U.S. In 1971 in return for Israeli abiding by resolution 242, Israel rejected the proposal since they don't want peace but annexation of Arab territories.


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## mahatir

Syrian Lion said:


> tell me this, if the Arabs were united, wouldn't the Arabs be a superpower? but the west will never let that happen, they want the Arabs divided, how do they keep them divided? they have their own puppet governments...



This has nothing to do with the west , the main obstacle on Arab alliance is political Islam . If you manage to execute all filthy Sunni and Shia clerks only then Arabs would be capable to unite.

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## doritos

mahatir said:


> This has nothing to do with the west , the main obstacle on Arab alliance is political Islam . If you manage to *execute all filthy Sunni and Shia clerks* only then Arabs would be capable to unite.



good idea


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## fatman17

arabs used to win wars before oil was discovered. they were a hard people - now with oil, they have become soft - the easy life. the money rolls in.


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## mahatir

500 said:


> Jews and Palestinians were in similar position. Palestinians had numeral advantage. From nov 1947 to april 1948 Jews were in very bad situation and could easy lose. But then they went to counter offensive which was very successful. And Jews would capture the entire Palestine with ease if Jordanians were not coming for rescue in may 1948.
> 
> 
> When Syrian and Palestinian attack Jordanians u should remember they saved u. Jordanians had a small army compare to other Arab armies, but most effective.



Most Jewish Immigrants back then were battle hardened , disciplined and believed in their cause while palestinians were simply a band of various warlords without any leader or national army which lead to their humilating defeat at the hands of the better organized and disciplined Jews . 

The palestinian only started adopting their nationality after 1967 war , before that they were simply a bunch of tribes and clans without a fixed structure.


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## mahatir

BLACKEAGLE said:


> When you fight 4 wars for them, host 2 million of them and offer them passports and all citizens rights. When you employ all your abilities to defend them politically, and set up hospitals in their territories and send to them aids every while, and what you get in return is insults and accusations of treason, you will have no choice but to hate them.
> 
> The very same they did in Kuwait, Kuwait preferred Palestinian workers over others to help them, until their numbers reached 500 k (more than Kuwaiti citizens), and when Kuwait got invaded, they got down streets and chanted for the invaders. I Iraq, they collaborated with Saddam against Iraqis. In Lebanon, they tried to take it over, the same in Jordan. And after we chose to let it go, they wouldn't do so, they always attack you. It's not only about Hazzy but most of them are like this.
> 
> I've long feared a Palestinian with Hazzy's mindset here in PDF, because I know them and I knew they would bad mouth me and my country. No matter how much you sacrifice for them, they will always back-stab you in the back. However, when he came here I hoped nothing of this sort would happen, and I warned him several times but he brought it to himself my man. He got what he worked for.



The problem is not really about palestinains but more to do with MB palestinians , Just like Egyptian MBs , simply Islamists cannot integrate in any society whether in the West or Arab countries and they are always the first to backstab their host country for the sake of their organization or " jama3a " . 

Most palestinians who bash Jordan are the descendants of those who got their asses kicked by Jordanian Army back in black september but the majority of average palestinians are loyal to Jordan , at least in what I saw in UAE , many of them regard themselves Jordanians rather than palestinians after it has become their homeland .



Syrian Lion said:


> oh how cute, the Israeli came to help....
> 
> 
> and in 1973 Egypt got back Sinai and then the Egypt stopped, thus it put all the pressure on Syria alone...
> 
> and you think Israel is fighting its own wars? there wouldn't be Israel if it wasn't for the west and their puppets in the region...
> 
> Jordan and Israel cooperated during Yom Kippur War, documents reveal - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz
> 
> Now Wikipedia provide the sources... so don't complain, source [11] is linked...
> 
> After the 1967 War and the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 242, Gunnar Jarring was appointed by the UN as a special envoy for the Middle East peace process, leading the so-calledJarring Mission. Both Egypt and Israel responded to Jarring's proposals with support for a peace process, but the process did not move forward.[10] Egyptian president Anwar Sadat and Syrian president Hafez al-Assad met King Hussein in 1973 to discuss the possibility of war. Hussein, fearing another loss of territory to Israel, declined. Furthermore, Hussein was suspicious of Sadat's promise to PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat to hand over the West Bank to the Palestinians in the event of a victory, as he considered the West Bank to be Jordanian territory. On the night of 25 September, Hussein secretly flew to Tel Aviv to warn Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir of an impending Syrian attack. "Are (the Syrians) going to war without the Egyptians, asked Mrs. Meir. The king said he didn't think so. 'I think they [Egypt] would cooperate'".[11]
> On 6 October 1973, Syria and Egypt attacked Israel without the aid of Jordan. A ceasefire was declared on 23 October, but fighting continued until January 1974. The Camp David Accords were signed by Egyptian President Anwar El Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin on 17 September 1978, after 14 months of diplomatic efforts by Egypt, Israel, and the United States.



Syrian Army was designed to protect regime from internal opposition but not for fighting proper conventional wars , that is why Israel raped syria several times before apart from the fact in Syria they recruit soldiers based on tribal and religious loyality rather than quality , you cannot really defeat israel with an army recruited solely from uneducated peasants and smugglers from the syrian coast aka the shabiha

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## mahatir

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Israel had < 1% of their Army killed and < 2% wounded.
> Equipment losses much higher.
> With resupply, Israel could continue war for quite some time.
> 
> Israel had less than 1% killed and less than 2% wounded, so I think they were not exhausted
> from a personell point of view.
> 
> Battle of Mansora is debated. What is clear is that
> the Israeli Air Force was not able to continue according to plans for ground attacks.
> Israeli and Egypt claims for air victories differ wildly. The story about one Egyptian pilot
> saving the ejected Israeli Phantom pilot is a little strange considering the Phantom has two crew
> members. Some Egyptians believe that Egyptian reports were doctored afterwards
> to support Mubaraks reputation.
> 
> The Egyptian Air Force would have had more problems protecting the Third Army.
> 
> You are right that they could not sustain this loss rate for years, but I think they could have achieved
> a decisive victory way before that.
> Question is of course: Then What?
> 
> Dont think the Israelis would want to (could) occupy Egypt, so a likely result would be status quo,
> Back to the Bar Lev line with Egyptian POW released after some time.
> 
> All in all, the end result is bettet.



Simply Israel would not afford to go for an attrition war with Egypt , Sadat was a moderate leader but had this war continued or the third army been attacked then the Israel forces would have been attacked with chemical weapons by Egyptian airforce on the spot , Sadat tried to be gentle on Israel in that war so that he could improve his ties with USA but had this not worked Israel could have not been able to continue fighting for decades . 

The fear among Americans was that if Egyptians become radicalized then it would have had great repricussions on USA interests in middle east. 

imagine if Egypt and Israel were at war until today with Iran and all the Islamist groups around , Israel army would have been stretched in countless fronts with missiles flying from Egypt into israel on daily bases along with attacks on your fleets by the Iranian revolutionary gaurds. 

The peace with Egypt has allowed IDF to focus more on countering terrorism and investing in unconventional warefare techniques, had the war with Egypt continued till today then IDF would have had a hard time fighting both conventional and unconventional threats at the same time in addition to the burden that would have been on Israel economy. 

Israel army is stronger than Egypt we agree on that but Israel could have not afforded to be at war with Egypt until today especially with Iran and Hezbollah around today .


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## A.P. Richelieu

mahatir said:


> Simply Israel would not afford to go for an attrition war with Egypt , Sadat was a moderate leader but had this war continued or the third army been attacked then the Israel forces would have been attacked with chemical weapons by Egyptian airforce on the spot , Sadat tried to be gentle on Israel in that war so that he could improve his ties with USA but had this not worked Israel could have not been able to continue fighting for decades .
> 
> The fear among Americans was that if Egyptians become radicalized then it would have had great repricussions on USA interests in middle east.
> 
> imagine if Egypt and Israel were at war until today with Iran and all the Islamist groups around , Israel army would have been stretched in countless fronts with missiles flying from Egypt into israel on daily bases along with attacks on your fleets by the Iranian revolutionary gaurds.
> 
> The peace with Egypt has allowed IDF to focus more on countering terrorism and investing in unconventional warefare techniques, had the war with Egypt continued till today then IDF would have had a hard time fighting both conventional and unconventional threats at the same time in addition to the burden that would have been on Israel economy.
> 
> Israel army is stronger than Egypt we agree on that but Israel could have not afforded to be at war with Egypt until today especially with Iran and Hezbollah around today .



Noone can afford to be at hot war for prolongued periods. WWI broke the British Empire.

The time period between the 67 and 73 is probably how it would end up.
Continous skirmishes, but with a weak Egpt initially after the surrendering of the third army.
such a war would not be good for the economy, but maybe sustainable.
Israel is still at war with Syria, but Syria is busy with its internal conflict.

Don't think anyone would use chemical/nuclear weapons in such a fight,
unless the existance of the nation was in jeopardy.


----------



## Syrian Lion

mahatir said:


> Syrian Army was designed to protect regime from internal opposition but not for fighting proper conventional wars , that is why Israel raped syria several times before apart from the fact in Syria they recruit soldiers based on tribal and religious loyality rather than quality , you cannot really defeat israel with an army recruited solely from uneducated peasants and smugglers from the syrian coast aka the shabiha


oh be quiet, Syria's army is one of the best armies in the Arab world... and the Syrian army is prepared for front wars, not cities war... and your racism makes you blind, thus your information is useless, when you stop being racist I will take you seriously... and don't forget Syrian army is mostly composed of Sunnis...


----------



## Falcon29

@mahatir

Ya kalb someone like you needs another 60 years to become a man to talk about the resistance.

ولك انت لا تستطيع تتكلم عن شيخ المقاومة! طز فيك

ولك انت بدك سرمية نصرالله عا راسك


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## Falcon29

@mahatir 

You gulfie nobody you should be kissing the sand you live on and thanking God everyday for the oil he blessed you with! Are you not able to comprehend!? Walak people from Saudi Arabia had to come teach you how to roast a lamb and you're coming here talking like you're above the world! One bomb will wipe out 40% of your island and you dare speak about the chief of the resistance you coward! You are a gulf cow with no honor! For people to find Arabs like you they have to search in the garbage dumps of our nations!


----------



## doritos

mahatir said:


> that is why Israel raped syria several times



Why are these insults on countries needed

Since Egypt also lost wars against Israel why don't you say Israel raped Egypt, or do you need Egypt so you won't disrespect them. What a trash personality if you are the same with people.


----------



## e3nad3alek

Hazzy997 said:


> @mahatir
> 
> You gulfie nobody you should be kissing the sand you live on and thanking God everyday for the oil he blessed you with! Are you not able to comprehend!? Walak people from Saudi Arabia had to come teach you how to roast a lamb and you're coming here talking like you're above the world! One bomb will wipe out 40% of your island and you dare speak about the chief of the resistance you coward! You are a gulf cow with no honor! For people to find Arabs like you they have to search in the garbage dumps of our nations!


Who had to teach Saudis how to roast a lamb?


----------



## Falcon29

doritos said:


> Why are these insults on countries needed
> 
> Since Egypt also lost wars against Israel why don't you say Israel raped Egypt, or do you need Egypt so you won't disrespect them. What a trash personality if you are the same with people.



The guy is so opposite of the guy he champion in his username....


----------



## mahatir

Hazzy997 said:


> @mahatir
> 
> Ya kalb someone like you needs another 60 years to become a man to talk about the resistance.
> 
> ولك انت لا تستطيع تتكلم عن شيخ المقاومة! طز فيك
> 
> ولك انت بدك سرمية نصرالله عا راسك



what resistance clown , last time you tried to mess with Jordan your got fucked upside down .



Hazzy997 said:


> @mahatir
> 
> You gulfie nobody you should be kissing the sand you live on and thanking God everyday for the oil he blessed you with! Are you not able to comprehend!? Walak people from Saudi Arabia had to come teach you how to roast a lamb and you're coming here talking like you're above the world! One bomb will wipe out 40% of your island and you dare speak about the chief of the resistance you coward! You are a gulf cow with no honor! For people to find Arabs like you they have to search in the garbage dumps of our nations!



The chief of the Resistance is currently fucking your people in Syria and killed more than 3000 of your species , good luck with that.


----------



## doritos

Syrian Lion said:


> oh be quiet, Syria's army is one of the best armies in the Arab world... and the Syrian army is prepared for front wars, not cities war... and your racism makes you blind, thus your information is useless, when you stop being racist I will take you seriously... and don't forget Syrian army is mostly composed of Sunnis...



shouldn't they have added that STORA thing to counter ATGW


----------



## mahatir

Syrian Lion said:


> oh be quiet, Syria's army is one of the best armies in the Arab world... and the Syrian army is prepared for front wars, not cities war... and your racism makes you blind, thus your information is useless, when you stop being racist I will take you seriously... and don't forget Syrian army is mostly composed of Sunnis...



Poorly trained temporary conscripts cant be really count as an army , you clearly know more than 80% of syrian special forces such as 4th division and republican gaurds are made up of shabiha from latakia and tartus and you got your *** kicked in every single war your army entered . 

Even Jordan raped you back in 1970s when your junk tanks tried to cross over and help the insurgents Hafez supported when they got their *** kicked by Jordanian army. 

Israel kicked your *** in Lebanon tons of times before and annexed golan heights . As I said the current so called Syrian Army was designed to protect Assad familly and his cronies no more or less . 

Now your powerful Army role is to defend the Syrian capital along with foreign mercenaries and keep a functioning route between Damascus and Coast region , other than that it cant really do much .



Hazzy997 said:


> @mahatir
> 
> You gulfie nobody you should be kissing the sand you live on and thanking God everyday for the oil he blessed you with! Are you not able to comprehend!? Walak people from Saudi Arabia had to come teach you how to roast a lamb and you're coming here talking like you're above the world! One bomb will wipe out 40% of your island and you dare speak about the chief of the resistance you coward! You are a gulf cow with no honor! For people to find Arabs like you they have to search in the garbage dumps of our nations!



Yet you insult those who feed your people as blackeagle said your type are like dogs . takol we tensa ya kalb .



doritos said:


> Why are these insults on countries needed
> 
> Since Egypt also lost wars against Israel why don't you say Israel raped Egypt, or do you need Egypt so you won't disrespect them. What a trash personality if you are the same with people.



Egypt did lose wars when army was run by so called Arab socialist nationalist fags like Gamal Abdulnasser , but once Sadat kicked those fags out they started performing better during war of attrition and 1973 war . 

Until Today Egyptian economy is suffering from the destructive economic policies that nasser adopted after the coup he made back in 1956. 

no one ruined the Arab ruined like the Arab socialist bitches such as Saddam , Nasser and Hafez .

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## mahatir

doritos said:


> shouldn't they have added that STORA thing to counter ATGW



Tanks are worthless in Urban Warfare , they should have relied from the begining instead on special forces and light infantry supported by air-cover with guided missiles which have reduced civilian losses and kept this conflict as a low level insurgency but adopting stupid soviet era techniques ruined the whole country and turned it into a Shit-hole.


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## Jf Thunder

cuz swag


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## anonymus

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *By Sir MuradK :*
> 
> *Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
> ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.*
> 
> Lets start with *UAE* *My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF.* I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is *8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great, *
> 
> Now 4pm* Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, *_*Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.*_
> 
> Now *Syrians*_* taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.*_
> *Iraqis* and* Iranians* man they had issues teach them something _*1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot*_. *Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw*
> 
> 
> Informative threads:
> 
> How PAF pilots got the edge in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war | Page 2
> 
> 
> Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ? | Page 15




A person who has even an iota of logical reasoning left could detect bullshit in this article. Planes are not like candies that you could pick up 6 of them by evening from France.


+ 

Tone is highly derogatory towards Arabs.


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## doritos

mahatir said:


> Yet you insult those who feed your people as blackeagle said your type are like dogs . *takol we tensa ya kalb* .



That's right, and I want more food @BLACKEAGLE







( I forgot that wasn't to me ^^, but he also called me a dog so



> Egypt did lose wars when army was run by so called Arab socialist nationalist fags like Gamal Abdulnasser , but once Sadat kicked those fags out they started performing better during war of attrition and 1973 war .
> 
> Until Today Egyptian economy is suffering from the destructive economic policies that nasser adopted after the coup he made back in 1956.
> 
> no one ruined the Arab ruined like the Arab socialist bitches such as Saddam , Nasser and Hafez .



socialist & puppet bitches like you, same shit diff section.


----------



## Falcon29

mahatir said:


> what resistance clown , last time you tried to mess with Jordan your got fucked upside down .
> 
> 
> 
> The chief of the Resistance is currently fucking your people in Syria and killed more than 3000 of your species , good luck with that.



Dumb gulf terrorist, you have the username of someone who was anti Israeli and you're up their ***. Resistance had nothing to do with Fatah you sick pig, the resistance isn't killing my people. Syria is defending itself against terrorists supported by your kind so you can destroy every anti Israeli regime. Syria always supported my people and the resistance.

Why do you keep brining up Jordan? 

No where am I insulting Jordan, you're a gulf terrorist idiot who hates anybody who fights the Israeli racial imperialism.



doritos said:


> That's right, and I want more food @BLACKEAGLE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ( I forgot that wasn't to me ^^, but he also called me a dog so
> 
> 
> 
> socialist & puppet bitches like you, same shit diff section.



This guy is seriously deranged, he hates with passion any nation or organization that doesn't accept Israeli racial imperialism(occupation).

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## Mahmoud_EGY

Hazzy997 said:


> @mahatir
> 
> Ya kalb someone like you needs another 60 years to become a man to talk about the resistance.
> 
> ولك انت لا تستطيع تتكلم عن شيخ المقاومة! طز فيك
> 
> ولك انت بدك سرمية نصرالله عا راسك


you was as i remeber anti assad and support the FSA what happened ?


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## Falcon29

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> you was as i remeber anti assad and support the FSA what happened ?



I woke a little bit, Arabs plus gulf plus Israel want him gone and want to wreck Iran to prevent them from helping the Palestinians. It's a war against Israel, it's not a civil war. I'm sick of the pro Israel Arabs we have today, they aren't like they were before.

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## Mahmoud_EGY

Hazzy997 said:


> I woke a little bit, Arabs plus gulf plus Israel want him gone and want to wreck Iran to prevent them from helping the Palestinians. It's a war against Israel, it's not a civil war. I'm sick of the pro Israel Arabs we have today, they aren't like they were before.


so either way the suffring of the syrian people means nothing ?


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## Falcon29

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> so either way the suffring of the syrian people means nothing ?



No that's not what I said, I'm speaking strictly from a political standpoint. The Syrian people got the worst of it since the US and Israel want us Arabs to kill each other for Israel's benefit. We Arabs have to realize that these two nations are controlled by the same entity and will do everything to destroy us to prevent us from supporting Palestine. Of course, you used to say you're against rebels and the same people are fighting Egypt, yet now you're talking about the Syrian people? Even the gulf people here have become anti rebels, why? Is it because they think the rebels will be more anti Israel? So now the Arabs don't do anything right....


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## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> No that's not what I said, I'm speaking strictly from a political standpoint. The Syrian people got the worst of it since the US and Israel want us Arabs to kill each other for Israel's benefit. We Arabs have to realize that these two nations are controlled by the same entity and will do everything to destroy us to prevent us from supporting Palestine. Of course, you used to say you're against rebels and the same people are fighting Egypt, yet now you're talking about the Syrian people? Even the gulf people here have become anti rebels, why? Is it because they think the rebels will be more anti Israel? So now the Arabs don't do anything right....


700 K of Palestinian refugees got more support than 100 million other refugees in 20th century. And still not enough for Palestinians.

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## Mahmoud_EGY

Hazzy997 said:


> No that's not what I said, I'm speaking strictly from a political standpoint. The Syrian people got the worst of it since the US and Israel want us Arabs to kill each other for Israel's benefit. We Arabs have to realize that these two nations are controlled by the same entity and will do everything to destroy us to prevent us from supporting Palestine. Of course, you used to say you're against rebels and the same people are fighting Egypt, yet now you're talking about the Syrian people? Even the gulf people here have become anti rebels, why? Is it because they think the rebels will be more anti Israel? So now the Arabs don't do anything right....


my opinion is clear from the start i wish for peace in syria and to the syrian people since they dont deserver what is happning to them


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## Falcon29

500 said:


> 700 K of Palestinian refugees got more support than 100 million other refugees in 20th century. And still not enough for Palestinians.



You muslim hating leeches, keep your propaganda to yourselves. The garbage that mocks Muhammad and Jesus and considers non Jews cows that serve the supremacist Jewish people is coming here trying to make it appear as if there are tensions between Muslims, it's only our leaders who prevent us from putting an end to Israeli racial imperialism. We all are together against your terrorist state. This is the sick people we're struggling against:








Mahmoud_EGY said:


> my opinion is clear from the start i wish for peace in syria and to the syrian people since they dont deserver what is happning to them



We Arabs all wish for the best for all our people. Let's hope one day US-Israeli interference will come to an end so we could actually express our opinions against their hegemony ever since the Zionist plan in our region. Millions have been killed and displaced thanks to the Zionists.

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## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> You muslim hating leeches


You are whining and begging for help all the time although u live much better than majority of Muslims in the world. You were offered a state 5 times at least and each time u rejected that offer. but keep blaming everyone around. You sucked up to USSR which massacred million Muslims in Afghanistan, then you sucked up to Syria which massacred thousands of ur own people and tens of thousands of other Muslims. Now again u are trying to suck up to Syria and Iran who are massacring, starving and ethnicaly cleansing hundreds of thousands of Muslims, including ur own people.


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

I watched a documentary about the Yom Kipur war where the Israelis defeated pretty much the entire Arab World. I think that the biggest problem is bluster and bravado that the Arabs displayed. Entire armies destroyed, yet false information is relayed to allied forces. The Egyptians held a narrow strip of land in Sinai and already paraded like they won the war. The Syrians charging despite having inferior weapons, training and supply.
If coordinated properly the Arab world could have destroyed the cancer of Israel as the Jews had no land to fall back to, Israel being such a small country. Defeat after defeat, Lies after lies.

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## Mahmoud_EGY

mahatir said:


> Tanks are worthless in Urban Warfare , they should have relied from the begining instead on special forces and light infantry supported by air-cover with guided missiles which have reduced civilian losses and kept this conflict as a low level insurgency but adopting stupid soviet era techniques ruined the whole country and turned it into a Shit-hole.


the problem is no one can imagine that SAA for example or iraq army to fight in urban warfare


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## Falcon29

@Mahmoud_EGY 

Don't be fooled by Jewish criminals, it's very evident they have a hatred against our Prophet(SAW) and our people as a whole. They don't care for what's happening, they want us weak and destroyed. They will be extremely anti opposition if the oppositions was victorious in Syria. Anything Muslim they hate and oppose, not because those people are classified as Muslims, but because being a Muslim is being someone that opposes injustice and strives for good. So Muslims whom strive for good will oppose the evil Israeli policies in our region and this is a threat to their evil so they will want to fight all Muslims to the last American. 

It's not America fighting us, it's the Jewish people fighting us through the American people. Unfortunately, the American people can do little to nothing to prevent this unless they become more aware of the state this nation is in. Anybody can tell our policy in the Middle East is inspired by Jewish people, even our pentagon leaders and foreign policy leaders are Jewish people. It's the Jewish people who attacked Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, U.S, UK, etc.....

They even deliberately killed dozens of American sailors in the USS Liberty incident, the Jewish controlled administrations covered up the Israeli nuclearweapons tests in the Indian Ocean. We all know it was Israel, all scientists even said that was a nuclear weapons tests. These crazy people even wrote in their Atlanta Jewish Times that they should murder the American president with Mossad agents, they even stated that option has been discussed by top Israeli leaders. This is not a struggle against the West, the West actually could have great relations with our nations, it's the Jewish people who are preventing it.

The Arab nations that support Israel are the only nations with developed economies and relations with the world. The ones that don't support Israeli expansionism and terrorism are hit with sanctions, threats of war, political, economical and social wars. This clearly means the Jewish people are preventing peace in the Middle East. This is why it's a struggle against the conservative extremist Jewish people overseas. The majority of them don't care about the region and want just what's good for them, this is why unfortunately we have a miserable region which will see major violence in the future. 

If all Muslims nations accepted Israeli tyranny and crimes against the Palestinians then we would become prosperous nations who are praised by the 'West'. We are a patient people however and will not accept that, we will come out victorious against the Jewish hegemony. We Muslims have no issues with the west, I'd even be willing to pull all our immigrants out of their nations as long as they put an end to the Jewish directing of their affairs.


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## Mahmoud_EGY

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> I watched a documentary about the Yom Kipur war where the Israelis defeated pretty much the entire Arab World. I think that the biggest problem is bluster and bravado that the Arabs displayed. Entire armies destroyed, yet false information is relayed to allied forces. The Egyptians held a narrow strip of land in Sinai and already paraded like they won the war. The Syrians charging despite having inferior weapons, training and supply.
> If coordinated properly the Arab world could have destroyed the cancer of Israel as the Jews had no land to fall back to, Israel being such a small country. Defeat after defeat, Lies after lies.


the goal was never to retake sainai we did not have mobile air defence we could only work under the cover of our air defence in the Egyptian front we did what we wanted to do from the start of the war

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## Jf Thunder

500 said:


> You are whining and begging for help all the time although u live much better than majority of Muslims in the world. You were offered a state 5 times at least and each time u rejected that offer. but keep blaming everyone around. You sucked up to USSR which massacred million Muslims in Afghanistan, then you sucked up to Syria which massacred thousands of ur own people and tens of thousands of other Muslims. Now again u are trying to suck up to Syria and Iran who are massacring, starving and ethnicaly cleansing hundreds of thousands of Muslims, including ur own people.


no, technicality Iran and Syria are just cleansing Sunnis Muslim, not all of them


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## Falcon29

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> I watched a documentary about the Yom Kipur war where the Israelis defeated pretty much the entire Arab World. I think that the biggest problem is bluster and bravado that the Arabs displayed. Entire armies destroyed, yet false information is relayed to allied forces. The Egyptians held a narrow strip of land in Sinai and already paraded like they won the war. The Syrians charging despite having inferior weapons, training and supply.
> If coordinated properly the Arab world could have destroyed the cancer of Israel as the Jews had no land to fall back to, Israel being such a small country. Defeat after defeat, Lies after lies.



It wasn't a major defeat at all, we could have put an end to the colonialist state however we didn't have so much hatred against them, we though they were peaceful people until the 67 war of aggression we realized they are imperialiasts. The West was also supporting them with intelligence, the UN gave Israel long periods of cease fires fooling the Arabs thinking the war would end allowing them to re-arm and attack arab positions.


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## HAIDER

In context to Arab-Isreal war and role of Pakistani pilot. Had little chat with a very senior forum member and ex PAF pilot Sir Murad and few other pilots.. Dig the forum and you all find the reason . ( It must be few years old thread).

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## Falcon29

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> the goal was never to retake sainai we did not have mobile air defence we could only work under the cover of our air defence in the Egyptian front we did what we wanted to do from the start of the war



حا يقولو انو العرب انهزمو حتا ولو اخي، هما بفكرو العرب هجمو عا اسرايل ولاكن هيا هجمت العرب واحتلو إرضائها 

بفكر اننا حمير بنفهمش بل مرة


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> the goal was never to retake sainai we did not have mobile air defence we could only work under the cover of our air defence in the Egyptian front we did what we wanted to do from the start of the war



You held a narrow strip of land and had great negotiation power but president Sadat refused. The Jews under fat Ariel Sharon led a charge through a gap in your lines and destroyed the SAM batteries and took the war into Egypt.
Disaster after disaster yet the Egyptian army refused to turn West to counter the Israelis behind your lines.


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## Mahmoud_EGY

Hazzy997 said:


> @Mahmoud_EGY
> 
> Don't be fooled by Jewish criminals, it's very evident they have a hatred against our Prophet(SAW) and our people as a whole. They don't care for what's happening, they want us weak and destroyed. They will be extremely anti opposition if the oppositions was victorious in Syria. Anything Muslim they hate and oppose, not because those people are classified as Muslims, but because being a Muslim is being someone that opposes injustice and strives for good. So Muslims whom strive for good will oppose the evil Israeli policies in our region and this is a threat to their evil so they will want to fight all Muslims to the last American.
> 
> It's not America fighting us, it's the Jewish people fighting us through the American people. Unfortunately, the American people can do little to nothing to prevent this unless they become more aware of the state this nation is in. Anybody can tell our policy in the Middle East is inspired by Jewish people, even our pentagon leaders and foreign policy leaders are Jewish people. It's the Jewish people who attacked Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, U.S, UK, etc.....
> 
> They even deliberately killed dozens of American sailors in the USS Liberty incident, the Jewish controlled administrations covered up the Israeli nuclearweapons tests in the Indian Ocean. We all know it was Israel, all scientists even said that was a nuclear weapons tests. These crazy people even wrote in their Atlanta Jewish Times that they should murder the American president with Mossad agents, they even stated that option has been discussed by top Israeli leaders. This is not a struggle against the West, the West actually could have great relations with our nations, it's the Jewish people who are preventing it.
> 
> The Arab nations that support Israel are the only nations with developed economies and relations with the world. The ones that don't support Israeli expansionism and terrorism are hit with sanctions, threats of war, political, economical and social wars. This clearly means the Jewish people are preventing peace in the Middle East. This is why it's a struggle against the conservative extremist Jewish people overseas. The majority of them don't care about the region and want just what's good for them, this is why unfortunately we have a miserable region which will see major violence in the future.
> 
> If all Muslims nations accepted Israeli tyranny and crimes against the Palestinians then we would become prosperous nations who are praised by the 'West'. We are a patient people however and will not accept that, we will come out victorious against the Jewish hegemony. We Muslims have no issues with the west, I'd even be willing to pull all our immigrants out of their nations as long as they put an end to the Jewish directing of their affairs.


i agree with most of what you say but you are wrong even if isreal is not here we still have problems with the west dont forget british and french occupation the crusedes i think there is one rule in this world the strong will do what he can and the weak will suffer what he must it has been like this and will forever be so we everyone should blame himself Egyptians palsitinans iraqis every country that is in a bad shape because they became a victim


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## Falcon29

HAIDER said:


> In context to Arab-Isreal war and role of Pakistani pilot. Had little chat with a very senior forum member and ex PAF pilot Sir Murad and few other pilots.. Dig the forum and you all find the reason . ( It must be few years old thread).



What's important is to understand the context, it wasn't an Arab-Israeli war. It was an Israeli war of aggression against stationary Arab forces in order to annex Arab land for the Jewish state. They wanted our lands since the 1900's and have terrorized our people to grab our land. The Arabs thought it was a rational state until they realized something is very wrong about these people, they want what they want illegally and will kill to achieve their goals. Arabs just didn't have objectives to dismantle the state of Israel. That's propaganda by Jewish dominated press. They just wanted to defend boundaries of a palestinian state. That's why Israelis brag about 'victory' when they know well they commits acts of aggression in 48 and 67.



Mahmoud_EGY said:


> i agree with most of what you say but you are wrong even if isreal is not here we still have problems with the west dont forget british and french occupation the crusedes i think there is one rule in this world the strong will do what he can and the weak will suffer what he must it has been like this and will forever be so we everyone should blame himself Egyptians palsitinans iraqis every country that is in a bad shape because they became a victim



I know habibi, what I say is true and what you say is also true but that's a different context. If Israel is gone we can focus on our problems and solve them within a decade maybe, the problem is we don't know what would happen. We have lived under foreign occupation ever since European colonialism and we still aren't free since everyone wants our resources.


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Hazzy997 said:


> It wasn't a major defeat at all, we could have put an end to the colonialist state however we didn't have so much hatred against them, we though they were peaceful people until the 67 war of aggression we realized they are imperialiasts. The West was also supporting them with intelligence, the UN gave Israel long periods of cease fires fooling the Arabs thinking the war would end allowing them to re-arm and attack arab positions.



The 6 day war and Yom Kipur wars weren't major defeats? The middle east today is nothing like in Ancient times where the likes of Salah Adin destroyed crusaders with skill and dignity. The Israelis today are so entrenched now its impossible to remove them because the Yom Kipur war was so half arsed! There are no more chances like back then, its sad to say that the Israelis are there to stay for good.

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## Falcon29

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> You held a narrow strip of land and had great negotiation power but president Sadat refused. The Jews under fat Ariel Sharon led a charge through a gap in your lines and destroyed the SAM batteries and took the war into Egypt.
> Disaster after disaster yet the Egyptian army refused to turn West to counter the Israelis behind your lines.



No he didn't, look up the Sadat-Jarring UN agreement, the Egyptians wanted peace if Israel would abide by UN 242 resolution and were willing to develop relations with the U.S. It was Israel which rejected this I believe in 1971.


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## mahatir

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> the problem is no one can imagine that SAA for example or iraq army to fight in urban warfare



They should have prepared to fight israel in urban warefare , remember before in 1973 israel was only 50 km from damascus . 

Iraq had a somehow effective army but Syria is simply a Joke , the army there was kept weak by Assad famillly inorder to prevent any coup against them and most special forces are recruited from tribes and clans related to Assad's tribe and extended family. 

An army that is built on loyalty and tribal links like syrian army cant really be effective and that is how it crumbled in few month against poorly armed rebel peasants from syrian countryside, now Syrian regime relies on foreign mercenaries and organized crime groups to protect damascus and assad strongholds on the syrian coast.



Hazzy997 said:


> Dumb gulf terrorist, you have the username of someone who was anti Israeli and you're up their ***. Resistance had nothing to do with Fatah you sick pig, the resistance isn't killing my people. Syria is defending itself against terrorists supported by your kind so you can destroy every anti Israeli regime. Syria always supported my people and the resistance.
> 
> Why do you keep brining up Jordan?
> 
> No where am I insulting Jordan, you're a gulf terrorist idiot who hates anybody who fights the Israeli racial imperialism.
> 
> 
> 
> This guy is seriously deranged, he hates with passion any nation or organization that doesn't accept Israeli racial imperialism(occupation).



funny how a terrorist accuses others of terrorism , I just love it , then tell your brothers in Gaza to stop supporting takfiri groups in Sinai . 

Yeah Assad is bombing the shit out of your people in Yarmouk camp , now tell this to one of the palestinians who lost relatives there , I am sure you will be fucked Just like how your ancestors were fucked on black september.

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## Falcon29

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> The 6 day war and Yom Kipur wars weren't major defeats? The middle east today is nothing like in Ancient times where the likes of Salah Adin destroyed crusaders with skill and dignity. The Israelis today are so entrenched now its impossible to remove them because the Yom Kipur war was so half arsed! There are no more chances like back then, its sad to say that the Israelis are there to stay for good.



The six day war was not a war, it was an Israeli act of aggression aimed at acquiring Arab territories for their future expansionist policies. There's nothing impressive about committing aggression against 3 Arab nations especially with the U.S. Providing intelligence to Israel on stationary Arab targets. You tell us what do you think were the objectives of the Yom Kippur war? The Egyptians achieved their objectives but messed up when they tried providing cover for Syria. We aren't trying to destroy Israel, we're just trying to gain back our land. That's what the Yom Kippur war was about. 

You keep saying 'Israel is here to stay', what do you mean by that? Nobody is trying to destroy Israel, Israel is destroying the Palestinians and committing crimes against humanity. Occupations eventually have to come to an end, the only reason it won't is because of Jewish Americans who dominate US foreign policy and provide unconditional support resisting accountability of Israel by the UN. This situation is unlike any other situation in the history of the world. This is why it's so difficult to try getting Israel to abide by international law.

@mahatir 

Get your garbage out of here and mind your own business in your garbage island. You're not part of Levant Arabs and never been involved in our region, stay in your Island all the way over there and don't interfere in our affairs. The UAE has no place in our history, you're just oil rich tribal Arabs who were not involved in Arab-Israeli conflict.


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Hazzy997 said:


> No he didn't, look up the Sadat-Jarring UN agreement, the Egyptians wanted peace if Israel would abide by UN 242 resolution and were willing to develop relations with the U.S. It was Israel which rejected this I believe in 1971.



That doesnt matter, the war had started and the Egyptians had crossed into Israel with the Syrians attacking from the western side. The Israelis were in shock and wanted negotiations as they were uncertain about the possible outcome of the war. With that much leverage, Sadat could have gained very favourable terms with his newly acquired territory on the other side of the canal and his army safely crossed and with SAM cover.


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## Falcon29

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> That doesnt matter, the war had started and the Egyptians had crossed into Israel with the Syrians attacking from the western side. The Israelis were in shock and wanted negotiations as they were uncertain about the possible outcome of the war. With that much leverage, Sadat could have gained very favourable terms with his newly acquired territory on the other side of the canal and his army safely crossed and with SAM cover.



That's BS, what are you talking about? The 67 war!? Arabs didn't attack nobody!


----------



## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> Arabs just didn't have objectives to dismantle the state of Israel. That's propaganda by Jewish dominated press. They just wanted to defend boundaries of a palestinian state.


Rolfmao. Jews accepted UN partition plan, Arabs rejected. Israel was absolutely outgunned. They started daily bombings of Tel Aviv and were advancing to it until were stopped 32 km from it.



Hazzy997 said:


> That's BS, what are you talking about? The 67 war!? Arabs didn't attack nobody!


Egypt expelled UN peacekeepers from Sinai and declared naval blockade (act of aggression).
Jordan started artillery shelling.
Syria sent warplanes to bomb Haifa and shelled as well.


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## mahatir

doritos said:


> That's right, and I want more food @BLACKEAGLE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ( I forgot that wasn't to me ^^, but he also called me a dog so
> 
> 
> 
> socialist & puppet bitches like you, same shit diff section.



Well we have a functioning secure country , lets hope the clowns running your shit-hole start fixing your crumbling infastructure and secure your people.

.
.



Mahmoud_EGY said:


> my opinion is clear from the start i wish for peace in syria and to the syrian people since they dont deserver what is happning to them



Blood is very cheap for Islamists whether shia or sunnis , these bitches must be exterminated whenever it is possible for a better future , Egypt has a big chance of cleaning itself from this cancer in the time being .


----------



## Falcon29

500 said:


> Rolfmao. Jews accepted UN partition plan, Arabs rejected. Israel was absolutely outgunned. They started daily bombings of Tel Aviv and were advancing to it until were stopped 32 km from it.



There was no such a thing as a UN partition plan, it was a Zionist Jewish money plan imposed by the British empire and the Arabs were defending Palestinian land. Jewish made up the minority yet we're given 55% of the land that doesn't belong to them at all. Jewish people had no right on our land in the first place, there was no such thing as a majority Jewish population, it was a plan to impose a Jewish colony and transfer them in the future. The Arabs were only acting to defend their lives and land. Your argument is baseless, Jewish people belong to where very they came from whether it was Poland, America , Russia or whatever else, not on Arab land.


----------



## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Hazzy997 said:


> The six day war was not a war, it was an Israeli act of aggression aimed at acquiring Arab territories for their future expansionist policies. There's nothing impressive about committing aggression against 3 Arab nations especially with the U.S. Providing intelligence to Israel on stationary Arab targets. You tell us what do you think were the objectives of the Yom Kippur war? The Egyptians achieved their objectives but messed up when they tried providing cover for Syria. We aren't trying to destroy Israel, we're just trying to gain back our land. That's what the Yom Kippur war was about.
> 
> *You keep saying 'Israel is here to stay', what do you mean by that?* Nobody is trying to destroy Israel, Israel is destroying the Palestinians and committing crimes against humanity. Occupations eventually have to come to an end, the only reason it won't is because of Jewish Americans who dominate US foreign policy and provide unconditional support resisting accountability of Israel by the UN. This situation is unlike any other situation in the history of the world. This is why it's so difficult to try getting Israel to abide by international law.
> 
> @mahatir
> 
> Get your garbage out of here and mind your own business in your garbage island. You're not part of Levant Arabs and never been involved in our region, stay in your Island all the way over there and don't interfere in our affairs. The UAE has no place in our history, you're just oil rich tribal Arabs who were not involved in Arab-Israeli conflict.



You would have to be extremely naive if you believe that the occupation will end. The Israelis hold such power militarily that the state of Israel is now a permanent fixture. The Yom Kipur war could have ended the occupation but it was such a fiasco the opportunity was squandered.


----------



## mahatir

Hazzy997 said:


> The six day war was not a war, it was an Israeli act of aggression aimed at acquiring Arab territories for their future expansionist policies. There's nothing impressive about committing aggression against 3 Arab nations especially with the U.S. Providing intelligence to Israel on stationary Arab targets. You tell us what do you think were the objectives of the Yom Kippur war? The Egyptians achieved their objectives but messed up when they tried providing cover for Syria. We aren't trying to destroy Israel, we're just trying to gain back our land. That's what the Yom Kippur war was about.
> 
> You keep saying 'Israel is here to stay', what do you mean by that? Nobody is trying to destroy Israel, Israel is destroying the Palestinians and committing crimes against humanity. Occupations eventually have to come to an end, the only reason it won't is because of Jewish Americans who dominate US foreign policy and provide unconditional support resisting accountability of Israel by the UN. This situation is unlike any other situation in the history of the world. This is why it's so difficult to try getting Israel to abide by international law.
> 
> @mahatir
> 
> Get your garbage out of here and mind your own business in your garbage island. You're not part of Levant Arabs and never been involved in our region, stay in your Island all the way over there and don't interfere in our affairs. The UAE has no place in our history, you're just oil rich tribal Arabs who were not involved in Arab-Israeli conflict.



Well as long as your species are flooding into my country like ants then it is my business, once they **** off back to the destroyed levant then I have no problem . 

Hell your species are escaping in masses from the lovely levant .


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## Falcon29

mahatir said:


> Well we have a functioning secure country , lets hope the clowns running your shit-hole start fixing your crumbling infastructure and secure your people.
> 
> .
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Blood is very cheap for Islamists whether shia or sunnis , these bitches must be exterminated whenever it is possible for a better future , Egypt has a big chance of cleaning itself from this cancer in the time being .



STFU Bani Khaybar idiot, it's going to be Muslims vs Muslims until the last day on earth for you. Your life is about the protection of the illegal aggressive Jewish colony and you will want all Arabs killed for Israel to the last Arab. Too bad for you we Arabs are united against the Israeli regime which is responsible for much of the problems in our region today. The Jewish people killed millions and displaced millions, there is no such thing as American wars, it's Jewish wars on Muslim people.


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## doritos

mahatir said:


> Well we have a functioning secure country , lets hope the clowns running your shit-hole start fixing your crumbling infastructure and secure your people.
> 
> .
> .



Of course, why would you be attacked your the client state of the US. How about we take a look at articles from decades ago defining puppets ( Arab monarchies ) and those that refuse to bow ( Iraq ), that's some history for you.
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/issue51/articles/51_20-21.pdf

We as always will succeed ( on our own unlike you ) despite the hardship being in the middle of your garbage war.

All you do on PDF is bow & suck up in the Turkish & Egypt sections for whatever reason your doing it, go suck the dick as much as you want we don't give a ****.

Weren't u the Aaasian boy that said Islam is a religion for Arabs only, says the 50% Asian


----------



## mahatir

Hazzy997 said:


> The six day war was not a war, it was an Israeli act of aggression aimed at acquiring Arab territories for their future expansionist policies. There's nothing impressive about committing aggression against 3 Arab nations especially with the U.S. Providing intelligence to Israel on stationary Arab targets. You tell us what do you think were the objectives of the Yom Kippur war? The Egyptians achieved their objectives but messed up when they tried providing cover for Syria. We aren't trying to destroy Israel, we're just trying to gain back our land. That's what the Yom Kippur war was about.
> 
> You keep saying 'Israel is here to stay', what do you mean by that? Nobody is trying to destroy Israel, Israel is destroying the Palestinians and committing crimes against humanity. Occupations eventually have to come to an end, the only reason it won't is because of Jewish Americans who dominate US foreign policy and provide unconditional support resisting accountability of Israel by the UN. This situation is unlike any other situation in the history of the world. This is why it's so difficult to try getting Israel to abide by international law.
> 
> @mahatir
> 
> Get your garbage out of here and mind your own business in your garbage island. You're not part of Levant Arabs and never been involved in our region, stay in your Island all the way over there and don't interfere in our affairs. The UAE has no place in our history, you're just oil rich tribal Arabs who were not involved in Arab-Israeli conflict.



Well as long as your species are flooding into my country like ants then it is my business, once they **** off back to the destroyed levant then I have no problem . 

Hell your species are escaping in masses from the lovely levant .


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## doritos

btw drop the heated discussion for your own good, who gives a **** what mahatir or anyone else thinks for that matter, none of them are influential.


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## Falcon29

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> You would have to be extremely naive if you believe that the occupation will end. The Israelis hold such power militarily that the state of Israel is now a permanent fixture. The Yom Kipur war could have ended the occupation but it was such a fiasco the opportunity was squandered.



Why is this about military power to you? How come it isn't about international law and human rights? The Israeli terrorists are committing a brutal occupation and the international world has a duty to stand up for the rights of the Palestinian people. Are you denying that?



mahatir said:


> Well as long as your species are flooding into my country like ants then it is my business, once they **** off back to the destroyed levant then I have no problem .
> 
> Hell your species are escaping in masses from the lovely levant .



Good for you, lol, mind your own business in your oil filled island and leave us alone in our affairs Bani Khaybar.


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## mahatir

doritos said:


> Of course, why would you be attacked your the client state of the US. How about we take a look at articles from decades ago defining puppets ( Arab monarchies ) and those that refuse to bow ( Iraq ), that's some history for you.
> http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/issue51/articles/51_20-21.pdf
> 
> We as always will succeed ( on our own unlike you ) despite the hardship being in the middle of your garbage war.
> 
> All you do on PDF is bow & suck up in the Turkish & Egypt sections for whatever reason your doing it, go suck the dick as much as you want we don't give a ****.
> 
> Weren't u the Aaasian boy that said Islam is a religion for Arabs only, says the 50% Asian



As long as your people are waiting for the waited ghost " al mahdi " nothing much will change only moving from misery to another one . 

The hardship you have is the result of your own making , you have been slaughtering each other for decades now since ottman empire fell down , it has nothing to do with outside world .


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

mahatir said:


> Well as long as your species are flooding into my country like ants then it is my business, once they **** off back to the destroyed levant then I have no problem .
> 
> Hell your species are escaping in masses from the lovely levant .



You have a little more money and now you hold yourself above your own people? Do you think yourself better? 
Petty little man.

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## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> There was no such a thing as a UN partition plan, it was a Zionist Jewish money plan imposed by the British empire and the Arabs were defending Palestinian land.


You see whats ur problem. You cant make up ur mind. First u say u abide the international law and UN, but 5 minutes later u deny everything and start screaming that Israel is illegal and must be destroyed. 



> Jewish made up the minority yet we're given 55% of the land


You forget that Jordan was part of Palestine mandate. And if count Jordan we will see that Jews got only 13% of Palestine.

We can also check a bigger pic: Jews got 0.1% of Middle East although were some 2-3% of its population.



> there was no such thing as a majority Jewish population, it was a plan to impose a Jewish colony and transfer them in the future. The Arabs were only acting to defend their lives and land. Your argument is baseless, Jewish people belong to where very they came from whether it was Poland, America , Russia or whatever else, not on Arab land.


Arab land is n Arabia. And also get out of occupied Native Americans lands before talking about the Jews.

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## mahatir

doritos said:


> Of course, why would you be attacked your the client state of the US. How about we take a look at articles from decades ago defining puppets ( Arab monarchies ) and those that refuse to bow ( Iraq ), that's some history for you.
> http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/issue51/articles/51_20-21.pdf
> 
> We as always will succeed ( on our own unlike you ) despite the hardship being in the middle of your garbage war.
> 
> All you do on PDF is bow & suck up in the Turkish & Egypt sections for whatever reason your doing it, go suck the dick as much as you want we don't give a ****.
> 
> Weren't u the Aaasian boy that said Islam is a religion for Arabs only, says the 50% Asian



As long as your people are waiting for the waited ghost " al mahdi " nothing much will change only moving from misery to another one . 

The hardship you have is the result of your own making , you have been slaughtering each other for decades now since ottman empire fell down , it has nothing to do with outside world . 



Hazzy997 said:


> STFU Bani Khaybar idiot, it's going to be Muslims vs Muslims until the last day on earth for you. Your life is about the protection of the illegal aggressive Jewish colony and you will want all Arabs killed for Israel to the last Arab. Too bad for you we Arabs are united against the Israeli regime which is responsible for much of the problems in our region today. The Jewish people killed millions and displaced millions, there is no such thing as American wars, it's Jewish wars on Muslim people.



There is no conspiracy in the levant , your the conspiracy itself , your stupidity and dilusions is what lead to your own misery and destruction , no body else is responsible for this except fools like yourself .



+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> You have a little more money and now you hold yourself above your own people? Do you think yourself better?
> Petty little man.



Not holding but simply responding back to some dilusional dog who still believe they are above us


----------



## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Hazzy997 said:


> Why is this about military power to you? How come it isn't about international law and human rights? The Israeli terrorists are committing a brutal occupation and the international world has a duty to stand up for the rights of the Palestinian people. Are you denying that?
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you, lol, mind your own business in your oil filled island and leave us alone in our affairs Bani Khaybar.



Underlying the veneer of law, civilization and morality is the hard power of military capabilities to back them up. How do you propose the international community to end the occupation?


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## doritos

Al mahdi is a codeword for nuclear weapon which is what they are waiting for.


----------



## Falcon29

500 said:


> You see whats ur problem. You cant make up ur mind. First u say u abide the international law and UN, but 5 minutes later u deny everything and start screaming that Israel is illegal and must be destroyed.
> 
> 
> You forget that Jordan was part of Palestine mandate. And if count Jordan we will see that Jews got only 13% of Palestine.
> 
> We can also check a bigger pic: Jews got 0.1% of Middle East although were some 2-3% of its population.
> 
> 
> Arab land is n Arabia. And also get out of occupied Native Americans lands before talking about the Jews.



All your posts are garbage, I'm not an America, I'd rather be at my home but the illegal Jewish colony is preventing that. You're the ones that destroyed palestine with your Jewish money in the early 1900's, we are talking about freedom and not destroying Israel. Israel is the oppressor and the Palestinians are the oppressed. You do nothing else than deploying Jewish propaganda that Muslims are out to commit genocide on Jews when in reality it's Israel committing a form of genoicde against the Palestinians. There's no confusion in this conflict, one side is the victim which is struggling for its rights and one side is a nation armed to teeth with military budgets extremely high which is an Jewish extremist expansionist state which seeks to expel all Palestinians from their land as you just admitted by saying 'Arabs should go to Arabia', whatever the hell that means, we are native people and didn't come from 'Arabia' if that even exists. 

You admit you're a imperialist Jewish person who wants all non Jews out of Palestinian land so you can grab their land for your peope and at the same time preaching to us that Palestinians are aggressors, you're committing double evil right here.



+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Underlying the veneer of law, civilization and morality is the hard power of military capabilities to back them up. How do you propose the international community to end the occupation?



Don't ask me questions I don't run the world, there is an illegal occupation and an international body which has the duty to stand up for occupied people's rights. How they achieve that is not my business, the point is the problem is about a crime against humanity and not a competition or dispute. Only Israel disputes that's it's justified in its land grabbing policies. Because they're supremacist Jewish people. 

Do you have any ideas? What do you see that can't happen? There are many possibilities, like sanctions for example.


----------



## HAIDER

Hazzy997 said:


> What's important is to understand the context, it wasn't an Arab-Israeli war. It was an Israeli war of aggression against stationary Arab forces in order to annex Arab land for the Jewish state. They wanted our lands since the 1900's and have terrorized our people to grab our land. The Arabs thought it was a rational state until they realized something is very wrong about these people, they want what they want illegally and will kill to achieve their goals. Arabs just didn't have objectives to dismantle the state of Israel. That's propaganda by Jewish dominated press. They just wanted to defend boundaries of a palestinian state. That's why Israelis brag about 'victory' when they know well they commits acts of aggression in 48 and 67.
> 
> 
> 
> I know habibi, what I say is true and what you say is also true but that's a different context. If Israel is gone we can focus on our problems and solve them within a decade maybe, the problem is we don't know what would happen. We have lived under foreign occupation ever since European colonialism and we still aren't free since everyone wants our resources.


In that particular thread, we recorded the opinion ex pilots of PAF based on personal experience , who serve that war. There comments were not about politics, it was totally about Egyptian Air Force professionalism . Plus, issue with planes in Egyptian inventory.

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## Mahmoud_EGY

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> You held a narrow strip of land and had great negotiation power but president Sadat refused. The Jews under fat Ariel Sharon led a charge through a gap in your lines and destroyed the SAM batteries and took the war into Egypt.
> Disaster after disaster yet the Egyptian army refused to turn West to counter the Israelis behind your lines.


again our goals at the start 
1 crosing the suez canal 
2 clear the bar liv line which took 6 years to build we finished it in 6 hours 
3 advance within the cover of our SAMs 
4 wait for the counter attack and defeat it which we did after 2 days of the war 
5 stat negotiations from a postion of power to get back sainai 
we did all of it no one can attack without air cover the attack was a mistake by sadat which have caused the gap but they could not accomplish any thing they tried entering suez and ismalia and failed and like i said before we had time and manpower in our hands they did not this led to what we wanted our land back and peace

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Hazzy997 said:


> All your posts are garbage, I'm not an America, I'd rather be at my home but the illegal Jewish colony is preventing that. You're the ones that destroyed palestine with your Jewish money in the early 1900's, we are talking about freedom and not destroying Israel. Israel is the oppressor and the Palestinians are the oppressed. You do nothing else than deploying Jewish propaganda that Muslims are out to commit genocide on Jews when in reality it's Israel committing a form of genoicde against the Palestinians. There's no confusion in this conflict, one side is the victim which is struggling for its rights and one side is a nation armed to teeth with military budgets extremely high which is an Jewish extremist expansionist state which seeks to expel all Palestinians from their land as you just admitted by saying 'Arabs should go to Arabia', whatever the hell that means, we are native people and didn't come from 'Arabia' if that even exists.
> 
> You admit you're a imperialist Jewish person who wants all non Jews out of Palestinian land so you can grab their land for your peope and at the same time preaching to us that Palestinians are aggressors, you're committing double evil right here.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ask me questions I don't run the world, there is an illegal occupation and an international body which has the duty to stand up for occupied people's rights. How they achieve that is not my business, the point is the problem is about a crime against humanity and not a competition or dispute. Only Israel disputes that's it's justified in its land grabbing policies. Because they're supremacist Jewish people.
> 
> Do you have any ideas? What do you see that can't happen? There are many possibilities, like sanctions for example.



My question was rhetorical. I dont see any way to end the occupation, the chance to end it was lost in 1973. Now all that can be done is industrialize, educate the kids, make money and do business. Chinese style.
Once you have money and education, strength and national identity will follow and more paths open to you.

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## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> All your posts are garbage, I'm not an America,


Of course u are. Living in land of genocided people.



> I'd rather be at my home but the illegal Jewish colony is preventing that.


Nonsense. U can go to Gaza easily.



> You're the ones that destroyed palestine with your Jewish money in the early 1900's, we are talking about freedom and not destroying Israel.


We created Palestine.



> when in reality it's Israel committing a form of genoicde against the Palestinians.


Palestinians are one of the fastest growing nation in the world. Arabs in Israel have lowest mortality rates in entire Middle East.



> You admit you're a imperialist Jewish person


Less imperialist than Americans or Arabs themselves.

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## Falcon29

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> My question was rhetorical. I dont see any way to end the occupation, the chance to end it was lost in 1973. Now all that can be done is industrialize, educate the kids, make money and do business. Chinese style.
> Once you have money and education, strength and national identity will follow and more paths open to you.



China is an independent nation, Israel's occupation prevents any progress and will prevent industry or national identity. They want to destroy our national identity, they have Jewish organizations overseas which help in that aspect. We can't prosper if we're under massive restrictions from an state military which prevents us from walking on our own streets in our land let alone end their war against us. For any of that to happen, the world needs to hold Israel accountable, this is not about the 73 war which had to do with Arab territories and not Palestinian Territories. Palestinian territory is not occupied because of war, it's occupied because of the Jewish agenda which is to their Israeli they envision all over Palestine. 

So lets not evade the real situation here, the real situation is very clear, now the world needs to stand up against Israel's land grabbing policies. What's so complicated about that to you?



500 said:


> Of course u are. Living in land of genocided people.



I wish the American people see you for who you are. Yet, you're still begging them for billions to support your expansionist criminal state. 




> Nonsense. U can go to Gaza easily.



I'm not from Gaza, I'm from modern day central Israel and Ashdod, most people in Gaza are refugees who had no choice but to flee for survival from Jewish terrorists ethnically cleansing them. Jewish terrorists made up tens of thousands and almost reached a 100,000. 



> We created Palestine.



Your fascism pollutes the hell out of your mind, it seems the Jewish people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. No wonder you've been hated by almost everybody in the world for thousands of years, it's because you screwed yourselves up and now because you've managed to control influential sectors in their nations you're getting armed to teeth. 



> Palestinians are one of the fastest growing nation in the world. Arabs in Israel have lowest mortality rates in entire Middle East.



There's no such thing as Palestine to Jewish extremists like you, again, you make really stupid statements. 



> Less imperialist than Americans or Arabs themselves.



Yet an imperialist. 

So why do you lie to the world about your peaceful nature cowards, let them know who you really are, and you're criticizing the country which allowed Israel to happen. If it wasn't for America you wouldn't exist ungrateful piece of shit everybody knows America is what created Israel, without them you're nothing. If you have so much against America take your Jewish asses to your own colonialist state and quit beging for American support.


----------



## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Hazzy997 said:


> China is an independent nation, Israel's occupation prevents any progress and will prevent industry or national identity. They want to destroy our national identity, they have Jewish organizations overseas which help in that aspect. We can't prosper if we're under massive restrictions from an state military which prevents us from walking on our own streets in our land let alone end their war against us. For any of that to happen, the world needs to hold Israel accountable, this is not about the 73 war which had to do with Arab territories and not Palestinian Territories. Palestinian territory is not occupied because of war, it's occupied because of the Jewish agenda which is to their Israeli they envision all over Palestine.
> 
> So lets not evade the real situation here, the real situation is very clear, now the world needs to stand up against Israel's land grabbing policies. What's so complicated about that to you?



Stand up to Israel? With them backed up by the sole superpower and the entire western world? You are naive, power comes from the barrel of a gun and has always been so. There is little sympathy and knowledge of the occupation because the media is controlled by Jews right down to Hollywood. The Jewish lobby holds considerable sway in the USA which is why they back Israel with absurd rigidity.

Like I said before, the only way foward is to educate the kids, make money (including overseas) and wait for new paths to open up. It is a slow and arduous path, but proven.

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## BLACKEAGLE

500 said:


> Arab land is n Arabia. And also get out of occupied Native Americans lands before talking about the Jews.


My friend, I think you're smart enough to figure out that this not true at all. The word 'Arab' doesn't necessarily mean ethnically Arab. People who are in the Arab world are either Arabs by ethnicity or language. However, people have intermingled throughout history which made any and every spot on earth a mixture of different ethnicities. There is no place on earth that it's people are ethnically pure. But, there is sth called a majority, and the majority of every Arab country are the original people of that place, be they Egyptians, Assyrians, Nabateens, Berbers...etc. Anyway, you can't come here to question people for letting others in or for intermingling with them.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Hazzy997 said:


> No he didn't, look up the Sadat-Jarring UN agreement, the Egyptians wanted peace if Israel would abide by UN 242 resolution and were willing to develop relations with the U.S. It was Israel which rejected this I believe in 1971.



Needs to be respected by all parties.
Egypt and Israel accepted Resolution 242 in 1968. Syria in 1972.
PLO accepted Resolution 242 only in 1993.
Has Hamas accepted it yet? Doubt it.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who's the culprit then.


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## Informant

Hazzy997 said:


> @mahatir
> 
> Ya kalb someone like you needs another 60 years to become a man to talk about the resistance.
> 
> ولك انت لا تستطيع تتكلم عن شيخ المقاومة! طز فيك
> 
> ولك انت بدك سرمية نصرالله عا راسك



Haha hazzy losing his shit as usual, literally badmouthing some one.



Hazzy997 said:


> @mahatir
> 
> You gulfie nobody you should be kissing the sand you live on and thanking God everyday for the oil he blessed you with! Are you not able to comprehend!? Walak people from Saudi Arabia had to come teach you how to roast a lamb and you're coming here talking like you're above the world! One bomb will wipe out 40% of your island and you dare speak about the chief of the resistance you coward! You are a gulf cow with no honor! For people to find Arabs like you they have to search in the garbage dumps of our nations!



Jesus this is just pathetic.



HAIDER said:


> In that particular thread, we recorded the opinion ex pilots of PAF based on personal experience , who serve that war. There comments were not about politics, it was totally about Egyptian Air Force professionalism . Plus, issue with planes in Egyptian inventory.



Link please

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## Falcon29

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Stand up to Israel? With them backed up by the sole superpower and the entire western world? You are naive, power comes from the barrel of a gun and has always been so. There is little sympathy and knowledge of the occupation because the media is controlled by Jews right down to Hollywood. The Jewish lobby holds considerable sway in the USA which is why they back Israel with absurd rigidity.
> 
> Like I said before, the only way foward is to educate the kids, make money (including overseas) and wait for new paths to open up. It is a slow and arduous path, but proven.



I'm not naive, I know this better than you. When the Muslim raises his gun he's accused of terrorism and when the West dictates the worlds affairs through force they're 'supporting freedom'. There is no path, by then all Palestinians would be expelled from their lands and Israel would become more powerful than China itself. You guys want to just sit around and watch this nation grow more and more powerful and colonize more land have fun in the future when they're coming your way. 

Yet again, however, the international world either needs to stand up for the rights of an oppressed people's or go out in front of the world and admit they're Jewish terrorists who don't care for justice and only for their interests and benefits.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Hazzy997 said:


> That's BS, what are you talking about? The 67 war!? Arabs didn't attack nobody!



He is talking about the Yom Kippur war, but confusing Sinai with Israel.
Change "Israel" to "Israel occupied terroitories in Sinai" and it is pretty clear.


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## 500

Hazzy997 said:


> I wish the American people see you for who you are.


In contrast to u I dont say that Americans should hand lands to Indians and return to Europe. 



> Yet, you're still begging them for billions to support your expansionist criminal state.


Israel receives only military aid, supporting American industries.



> I'm not from Gaza, I'm from modern day central Israel and Ashdod


Ashdod is just half hour driving from Gaza. Whats a big deal? U will be in Palestine. And besides Ashdod Arabs are all Egyptian origin who came there in 19th century.



> Your fascism pollutes the hell out of your mind


Palestine is Jewish invention. Arabs nationalists in first jalf of 20-es century refused to call it a Palestine but Syria al Janubiya.



> There's no such thing as Palestine to Jewish extremists like you, again, you make really stupid statements.


Palestinians were created by our actions. Now there is.



> Yet an imperialist.


We all are imperialists.


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## Falcon29

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Needs to be respected by all parties.
> Egypt and Israel accepted Resolution 242 in 1968. Syria in 1972.
> PLO accepted Resolution 242 only in 1993.
> Has Hamas accepted it yet? Doubt it.
> 
> United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Who's the culprit then.



Israel didn't accept the resolution at all, the resolution calls on Israel to withdraw from occupied territories. Israel only withdrew from the Sinai, the resolution is only interpreted in that sense by Jewish extremists rejectionists like you. Hamas never existed then and the resolution has nothing to do with the Palestinians, they aren't mentioned in it. It calls on Israel to withdraw from territories occupied during the war of aggression. The whole world recognized this except Jewish extremist Henry Kissinger. Which is why the US vetoed the resolution in 1976 when the UN said it had to be settled at the Security Council. That resolution is Israel's nightmare, get lost with your Jewish lies.


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## HAIDER

Informant said:


> Haha hazzy losing his shit as usual, literally badmouthing some one.
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus this is just pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Link please


Its toughest job, try dig in warfare history and air war.


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## Falcon29

500 said:


> In contrast to u I dont say that Americans should hand lands to Indians and return to Europe.
> 
> 
> Israel receives only military aid, supporting American industries.
> 
> 
> Ashdod is just half hour driving from Gaza. Whats a big deal? U will be in Palestine. And besides Ashdod Arabs are all Egyptian origin who came there in 19th century.
> 
> 
> Palestine is Jewish invention. Arabs nationalists in first jalf of 20-es century refused to call it a Palestine but Syria al Janubiya.
> 
> 
> Palestinians were created by our actions. Now there is.
> 
> 
> We all are imperialists.



^^^^^

Wow that's disgusting, the next Nazi Germany will be seen from these people. This is what happens when you give arrogant people so much power, every single community in the world opposed the Jewish people because the Jewish people are the problem. Now the Palestinians are victims of the Jewish war against gentiles.


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## BLACKEAGLE

Informant said:


> Haha hazzy losing his shit as usual, literally badmouthing some one.
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus this is just pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Link please


He has caused so much damage to Palestinian cause with his lies and rudeness.

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## 500

There are 280 thousand Muslims in Jerusalem today. They all enjoy free treatment in Israeli hospitals best in ME. During 12 centuries of Muslim rule Muslim population of Jerusalem never exceed 13 thousands. 

Thats GENOCIDE!


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Hazzy997 said:


> I'm not naive, I know this better than you. When the Muslim raises his gun he's accused of terrorism and when the West dictates the worlds affairs through force they're 'supporting freedom'. There is no path, by then all Palestinians would be expelled from their lands and Israel would become more powerful than China itself. You guys want to just sit around and watch this nation grow more and more powerful and colonize more land have fun in the future when they're coming your way.
> 
> Yet again, however, the international world either needs to stand up for the rights of an oppressed people's or go out in front of the world and admit they're Jewish terrorists who don't care for justice and only for their interests and benefits.



Now your being absurd. China has no fear of Israel, Even the USA knows to stay away from the Chinese mainland after the Korean war. 
You my friend, suffer from despair. You can only help yourself, the international community is a rabble of arguing old men. Work hard, educate yourselves and sacrifice a generation to bitter hardship of slow progress. Its hard whilch is why it will probably not happen.


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## Informant

BLACKEAGLE said:


> He has caused so much damage to Palestinian cause with his lies and rudeness.



I can understand his heart being a Palestinian and the Israeli occupation, but this is not how you maintain decorum on an international forum. His rudeness turns people away from Palestinian cause and his constant cheer leading for anything Iran is a leading cause of friction between him and Arab members.

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## BLACKEAGLE

500 said:


> There are 280 thousand Muslims in Jerusalem today. They all enjoy free treatment in Israeli hospitals best in ME. During 12 centuries of Muslim rule Muslim population of Jerusalem never exceed 13 thousands.
> 
> Thats GENOCIDE!


Both Arabs and Jews are tired of conflict. Accept the Arab peace treaty to end this and cut the way on rougue states and terror militias.

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## Falcon29

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Now your being absurd. China has no fear of Israel, Even the USA knows to stay away from the Chinese mainland after the Korean war.
> You my friend, suffer from despair. You can only help yourself, the international community is a rabble of arguing old men. Work hard, educate yourselves and sacrifice a generation to bitter hardship of slow progress. Its hard whilch is why it will probably not happen.



One time you're saying affairs could only be solved through force the other you're preaching activism as if we're anti education. What do you want all Palestinians to suddenly have a 180 IQ over the next ten years? That's going to solve our problem?



Informant said:


> I can understand his heart being a Palestinian and the Israeli occupation, but this is not how you maintain decorum on an international forum. His rudeness turns people away from Palestinian cause and his constant cheer leading for anything Iran is a leading cause of friction between him and Arab members.



Actually I've got many people here to support the Palestinians. I don't express rudeness except only to rude people and people like you who keep cursing at me over Iran because you hate Shia to death.

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## Informant

Hazzy997 said:


> One time you're saying affairs could only be solved through force the other you're preaching activism as if we're anti education. What do you want all Palestinians to suddenly have a 180 IQ over the next ten years? That's going to solve our problem?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I've got many people here to support the Palestinians. I don't express rudeness except only to rude people and people like you who keep cursing at me over Iran because you hate Shia to death.



I hate shia? Come on my best friend in school was one. Even now a best friend is shiatan  Coincidence really but i dont hate them. Iran is in the wrong in Syria and I hate that. Not them. 

Nigga Please.

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## A.P. Richelieu

Hazzy997 said:


> Israel didn't accept the resolution at all, the resolution calls on Israel to withdraw from occupied territories. Israel only withdrew from the Sinai, the resolution is only interpreted in that sense by Jewish extremists rejectionists like you. Hamas never existed then and the resolution has nothing to do with the Palestinians, they aren't mentioned in it. It calls on Israel to withdraw from territories occupied during the war of aggression. The whole world recognized this except Jewish extremist Henry Kissinger. Which is why the US vetoed the resolution in 1976 when the UN said it had to be settled at the Security Council. That resolution is Israel's nightmare, get lost with your Jewish lies.



Accepted does not mean implemented. They agreed in principle. Before anything happens
all parties need to agree. As long as Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. does not agree, nothing will happen.

And as I told you before, there will be no peace with the Netanyahuh government.
They do not believe that Palestinians are interested in real peace, and act accordingly.
Israeli government needs to change for any progress.

If Palestinians are elected into ICC, then Hamas leadership can be prosecuted.
If they are locked in behind bars, that would be another step forward.


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## Falcon29

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Accepted does not mean implemented. They agreed in principle. Before anything happens
> all parties need to agree. As long as Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. does not agree, nothing will happen.
> 
> And as I told you before, there will be no peace with the Netanyahuh government.
> They do not believe that Palestinians are interested in real peace, and act accordingly.
> Israeli government needs to change for any progress.
> 
> If Palestinians are elected into ICC, then Hamas leadership can be prosecuted.
> If they are locked in behind bars, that would be another step forward.



You're so full of shit, the resolution is only interpreted by you that way and by Israeli rejectionists. It has zero to do with Palestinians, it's bout Israeli abiding by international law. The Jewish extremists don't believe in peace because their charter stated long ago before Israel was even created that Israel would extend all over ancient Israel. They consider Palestinian lands their god given land and grab land through brute force. That's why there will be no peace, you're trying to place the onus on the victims. That just means you're just another Jewish terrorist extremist crime against humanity.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Informant said:


> I can understand his heart being a Palestinian and the Israeli occupation, but this is not how you maintain decorum on an international forum. His rudeness turns people away from Palestinian cause and his constant cheer leading for anything Iran is a leading cause of friction between him and Arab members.



I finally get it.

Hazzy997 could be a paid Mossad AGENT, which spends his time giving Palestinians a BAD REPUTATION
for large sums of U.S. $$$$s.

He i certainly doing an excellent job, if this is the case.


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## Falcon29

A.P. Richelieu said:


> I finally get it.
> 
> Hazzy997 could be a paid Mossad AGENT, which spends his time giving Palestinians a BAD REPUTATION
> for large sums of U.S. $$$$s.
> 
> He i certainly doing an excellent job, if this is the case.



Oh huh, LOL, a Jewish extremist who goes against everything Palestinian wants to try convincing the public that I'm behind his lopsided biased view on the conflict. 

Only three people have that said to me, meanwhile more and more Indians are supporting the Palestinian right to freedom. 

If anybody is a paid troll it's you and the other shills here who misinterpret the UN 242 resolution and spent their whole time blaming the Palestinians for Israeli colonialism. The reality is that the Israeli people and the Zionist cause was to take everything they consider ancient Israel and there's nothing to dispute about from their perspective. That's a perspective that doesn't sound like peace to most rational honest people.

Why don't you tell us what's you believe is are the factors preventing peace, make a bulletin point list and make it short. After that we'll evaluate how independent and objectively you view the conflict.  

@A.P. Richelieu


----------



## USAHawk785

BLACKEAGLE said:


> Both Arabs and Jews are tired of conflict. Accept the Arab peace treaty to end this and cut the way on rougue states and terror militias.



Agreed. Let there be peace. 

Salam. Shalom.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Arab lost wars due to inferior technology... You can't only depend on Allah for win, Technology matters...


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## Syrian Lion

mahatir said:


> Poorly trained temporary conscripts cant be really count as an army , you clearly know more than 80% of syrian special forces such as 4th division and republican gaurds are made up of shabiha from latakia and tartus and you got your *** kicked in every single war your army entered .
> 
> Even Jordan raped you back in 1970s when your junk tanks tried to cross over and help the insurgents Hafez supported when they got their *** kicked by Jordanian army.
> 
> Israel kicked your *** in Lebanon tons of times before and annexed golan heights . As I said the current so called Syrian Army was designed to protect Assad familly and his cronies no more or less .
> 
> Now your powerful Army role is to defend the Syrian capital along with foreign mercenaries and keep a functioning route between Damascus and Coast region , other than that it cant really do much .


Black September when king hussien begged the west to help save him... yeah Jordan didn't do crap... you need to check your history, because it is known how bad king hussien started calling on the west to help save him... plus don't forget Syria has always been sanctioned, and never got any western support, Syria was independent... and again about Golan, I have already stated how Syria lost it, it was because the southern front stopped and left all the pressure on Syria, and you must be naive to think that Israel fought its own wars...
foreign mercs are only the F$A terrorists, and if you referring to Iraqis fighting in Syria, is that because they have lived there and they have to defend themselves from cannibalism F$A terrorists... only Damascus is secured? Homs is 95% cleaned from those scum terrorists, in addition to Hama... now go mind your own business...


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## Syrian Lion

doritos said:


> shouldn't they have added that STORA thing to counter ATGW


what do you mean?



Mahmoud_EGY said:


> the goal was never to retake sainai we did not have mobile air defence we could only work under the cover of our air defence in the Egyptian front we did what we wanted to do from the start of the war


well, Egypt did get Sinai back because there were two front going on... am I right? When Saddat decided to stop, and forgot about the other front, he basically just let the Syrians alone.. even the plan was not to take all of Sinai, but Saddat shouldn't have forgotten the other front that helped him take Sinai back... what do you think?


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

Hazzy997 said:


> Oh huh, LOL, a Jewish extremist who goes against everything Palestinian wants to try convincing the public that I'm behind his lopsided biased view on the conflict.
> 
> Only three people have that said to me, meanwhile more and more Indians are supporting the Palestinian right to freedom.
> 
> If anybody is a paid troll it's you and the other shills here who misinterpret the UN 242 resolution and spent their whole time blaming the Palestinians for Israeli colonialism. The reality is that the Israeli people and the Zionist cause was to take everything they consider ancient Israel and there's nothing to dispute about from their perspective. That's a perspective that doesn't sound like peace to most rational honest people.
> 
> Why don't you tell us what's you believe is are the factors preventing peace, make a bulletin point list and make it short. After that we'll evaluate how independent and objectively you view the conflict.
> 
> @A.P. Richelieu


This is how I perceive it:
* Israel wants a a real peace agreement which means no missiles / attacks from Palestinian side now, or after 50 
years. For this everyone, possibly also Iran must agree.
Currently Iran/Hamas does not recognize Israels right to exist, so real peace does not seem possible.
Hamas needs to allow a democratic election. If Palestinians want peace, they need to elect
either a reformed Hamas, or a new Palestinian leadership focusing on peace, and not the destruction of Israel.
Palestinian extremists clearly state the end game is the ethnic cleansing of Jews is inevitable.
* Palestinians want/need a state. Current government in Israel believes such a state will only be used to attack
a larger part of Israel, than possible from Gaza, so it delays/stalls. This government needs to be replaced.
For this Israeli voters need to be convinced.
The real extremists wants the West Bank to become part of Israel combined with forcing Palestinians out.
They are a minority, but will try to block any peace which would be acceptabe to Palestinians.
* Borders must be negotiated, any Jews on the Palestinian border needs to choose, either move to Israel
or become citizen of Palestine. Most will likely move to Israel. This will be more or less based on 67 borders.
If Palestinians can't stand the sights of Jews, then no peace is possible.
Both Palestinians and Jews must see each others as brothers for peace to happen.
With agreed adjustments. Think borders is more or less a done deal, w exception for Jerusalem.
Jews remaining in Palestine is currently not accepted.
Obviously, jews remaining may be prosecuted if they committed crimes like uprooting olive trees,
so extremist jews are likely to move back to Israel.
State sponsored education must not spread hate of the other parties in school.
If children are taught to hate, then problem will remain for another 50-60 years.
Children need to meet and play, to get respect for each other.
Palestinians under occupation, get pissed of by all the bad treatment as well as general difficulties
involved in beeing occupied. Noone likes this.
Israeli soldiers are pissed off because they are forced to waste time guarding West Bank.
* If eventually trust can be established, Palestinians can move back to Israel. This is going to take a long time.
Israelis are not going to accept becoming a minority in Israel initially, so there will be some limitations.
Ideally it should not be so, but real life is in this case so far from the ideal world that it is pointless
to dream about it.
* Compensation claims needs to take in account both Palestinian refugees, and Jews emigrated from Arab countries.
Obviously any Jews that choose to remain in Palestine, must only live on land properly payed for.
* Jerusalem is going to be an issue, and you already know my opinion.
Both parties have non-negotiable claims to the Temple/Al-Aqsa area.
I do not think the two parties will be able to resolve this by themselves,
and only real solution is that neither have control, and Jerusalem is handled
by UN, with an advisory religious council of muslims, jews and christians.
The contested area must be open to all humans world wide, showing respect.
Violators, permanently banned.
Palestinians are certainly getting a rough deal, and Israeli local government are
slowly deporting Palestinians living in Jerusalem, when law so permits.
That would not happen with a U.N. ruled Jerusalem.



Syrian Lion said:


> Black September when king hussien begged the west to help save him... yeah Jordan didn't do crap... you need to check your history, because it is known how bad king hussien started calling on the west to help save him... plus don't forget Syria has always been sanctioned, and never got any western support, Syria was independent... and again about Golan, I have already stated how Syria lost it, it was because the southern front stopped and left all the pressure on Syria, and you must be naive to think that Israel fought its own wars...



Syria got Russian help, You mean that this was not as good?
Syria lost, because Syrias army was executing a Soviet style frontal attack against prepared positions.
If Syrian Air Force had achieved air superiority it could have devastated these positions.
If the attack would have used modern combined arms tactics then the Israeli numerical 
disadvantage would have made it very difficult for them to win.

Egypt had a sound battle plan, Syria didn't, and did not have well trained army either.
When Syria ran into trouble, Egyptians abandoned something which was really working,
to relieve pressure on Syrians. Syria should be THANKFUL to any Egptins nd still has a debt to pay.

Why did not Syria build armed forces that could defeat Israel on its own?
Your own fault. Not he fault of the Egyptians.

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## Syrian Lion

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Syria got Russian help, You mean that this was not as good?
> Syria lost, because Syrias army was executing a Soviet style frontal attack against prepared positions.
> If Syrian Air Force had achieved air superiority it could have devastated these positions.
> If the attack would have used modern combined arms tactics then the Israeli numerical
> disadvantage would have made it very difficult for them to win.
> 
> Egypt had a sound battle plan, Syria didn't, and did not have well trained army either.
> When Syria ran into trouble, Egyptians abandoned something which was really working,
> to relieve pressure on Syrians. Syria should be THANKFUL to any Egptins nd still has a debt to pay.
> 
> Why did not Syria build armed forces that could defeat Israel on its own?
> Your own fault. Not he fault of the Egyptians.



King Hussien begged the west for help, and don't forget Syria didn't use all of its army... while Jordan did... anyways... Both Syria and Egypt planned the war together.. what do you mean Syria didn't have plan, it was simple for both Egypt and Syria, to get the occupied land back, Egypt did, since the pressure was not all on Egypt, while in the Syrian case, when Egypt stopped, all the pressure was put on Syria... and again, Syria had one of the best armies in the Arab world, it is a known fact, the three best armies in the Arab world were Syria, Egypt and Iraq... so don't tell me that Syrian army was not trained, don't forget Israel had free flow of weapons and support from the west...


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## mahatir

Syrian Lion said:


> what do you mean?
> 
> 
> well, Egypt did get Sinai back because there were two front going on... am I right? When Saddat decided to stop, and forgot about the other front, he basically just let the Syrians alone.. even the plan was not to take all of Sinai, but Saddat shouldn't have forgotten the other front that helped him take Sinai back... what do you think?



Actually Sadat had to increase his attacks and go out of sam battery range to relief pressure on Syrian side after your army got their asses kicked by Israel . 

As I told you , relying on Shabiha and illiterate peasants from the coast as your core special forces will only get your asses kicked every time you think about going to war with Israel . 

If Assad wants to improve his army without relying on foreign mercenaries then he will have to recruit more Druze and Bedioun arabs in his special forces but tribal mentality of security circles within Assad regime would oppose any real attempt to reform the army .


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## mahatir

Syrian Lion said:


> King Hussien begged the west for help, and don't forget Syria didn't use all of its army... while Jordan did... anyways... Both Syria and Egypt planned the war together.. what do you mean Syria didn't have plan, it was simple for both Egypt and Syria, to get the occupied land back, Egypt did, since the pressure was not all on Egypt, while in the Syrian case, when Egypt stopped, all the pressure was put on Syria... and again, Syria had one of the best armies in the Arab world, it is a known fact, the three best armies in the Arab world were Syria, Egypt and Iraq... so don't tell me that Syrian army was not trained, don't forget Israel had free flow of weapons and support from the west...



Most Israel forces were fighting on the Egyptian front where they faced a lot of problems to the point they asked for American intellegence help to expose any weak points on the Egyptian front. 

Syria got its *** kicked only after 5 days of fighting and the forces were then moved to the Egyptian front , for that reason Sadat decided to increase his attack on the Egyptian front to relief pressure on Syrian side after israel was only 40 km away from damascus then both Jordan and Iraq armies entered to save damascus from getting conquered . 

Jordan had a small army back in 1970 but they were highly trained and composed entirely of professionals , they managed to kick your *** on Jordan border while effectively defeating palestinian insurgents inside Jordan . Today Jordan has a strong army made up of 100 thousand forces mostly special forces , their situation today is even much better that when they only had a small army back in 1970. 

You see back in 1970 Syria tried to instigate a civil war in Jordan by supporting terrorists and extremists but what goes around comes around , simply your plans on Jordan were foiled since they had a strong well trained army and no one helped them by the way . 

Look at you today clown , your president relies on Foreign mercenaries to barely hold the capital and you have been sunk in this endless war for more than 3 years now with insurgents consolidating power in north , south and even near the shabiha backyard in latakia . 

As I told you , your army is simply a Joke unless your military leaders start reforming and recruiting from other sects inside the special forces , other than that your doomed , shabiha and peasants cannot be the backbone of any modern army . 

Perhaps Assad could give citizenships to Hezbollah members and let them run his rump army but that would require making in-direct peace with Israel to save your asses. 

Hezbollah is only interested in securing his weapons supply route from the coast and that has cost him a lot of losses , to get him to fight on other fronts would require making in-direct peace with israel otherwise the current situation is unsustainable as shabiha clowns are not doing well on other fronts.


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## Syrian Lion

@mahatir you know nothing about Black September, you saying Jordan beat the Syrian army, but you don't know facts, do you know that the Jordanian air force attacked the Syrian army that easily invaded Jordan, ONE DIVISION OF THE SYRIAN ARMY INVADED JORDAN, without the Syrian air force, and the Syrian air force was never used in the conflict... so STFU, go get educated and learn some facts... you are comparing the whole Jordanian army victory over ONE DIVISION of Syrian army with no air support... which made their kings beg the west for help... all your information about the conflict is wrong, because you are racist and ignorant... the Syrian army is not composed of tribes, it is composed of Syrian people.. every Syrian is part of the Syrian military, your racist false information are not worth of replying... 

now I'm ending this discussion, since you are comparing the victory of the Jordan with West over ONE DIVISION of the Syrian army, it is actually an honor, that it took a the west and Jordan to fight ONE DIVISION THAT INVADED JORDAN...


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## Mahmoud_EGY

Syrian Lion said:


> well, Egypt did get Sinai back because there were two front going on... am I right? When Saddat decided to stop, and forgot about the other front, he basically just let the Syrians alone.. even the plan was not to take all of Sinai, but Saddat shouldn't have forgotten the other front that helped him take Sinai back... what do you think?


the gap was caused by the attack we did outside of our air defence cover this attack was to try to help in the syrian front everything before this was going perfect in the Egyptian front

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## Falcon29

@A.P. Richelieu 

I'm not even wasting my time with you, expected that, deflect all blame on the victims and accuse a 'minority' of extremists of wanting the West Bank . Actually a minority don't want to colonize it, otherwise we wouldn't be where we are today you troll.



Syrian Lion said:


> @mahatir you know nothing about Black September, you saying Jordan beat the Syrian army, but you don't know facts, do you know that the Jordanian air force attacked the Syrian army that easily invaded Jordan, ONE DIVISION OF THE SYRIAN ARMY INVADED JORDAN, without the Syrian air force, and the Syrian air force was never used in the conflict... so STFU, go get educated and learn some facts... you are comparing the whole Jordanian army victory over ONE DIVISION of Syrian army with no air support... which made their kings beg the west for help... all your information about the conflict is wrong, because you are racist and ignorant... the Syrian army is not composed of tribes, it is composed of Syrian people.. every Syrian is part of the Syrian military, your racist false information are not worth of replying...
> 
> now I'm ending this discussion, since you are comparing the victory of the Jordan with West over ONE DIVISION of the Syrian army, it is actually an honor, that it took a the west and Jordan to fight ONE DIVISION THAT INVADED JORDAN...



The kid is a racist clown trolling us about how we're getting 'raped', lol. Let's see him fight a war, he's really good at talking.

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## A.P. Richelieu

Syrian Lion said:


> King Hussien begged the west for help, and don't forget Syria didn't use all of its army... while Jordan did... anyways... Both Syria and Egypt planned the war together.. what do you mean Syria didn't have plan, it was simple for both Egypt and Syria, to get the occupied land back, Egypt did, since the pressure was not all on Egypt, while in the Syrian case, when Egypt stopped, all the pressure was put on Syria... and again, Syria had one of the best armies in the Arab world, it is a known fact, the three best armies in the Arab world were Syria, Egypt and Iraq... so don't tell me that Syrian army was not trained, don't forget Israel had free flow of weapons and support from the west...



I didn't say Syria had a plan, I said Syria didn't have a *sound* plan.

Egypts plan: Advance over the Suez Canal, while Israel had very weak defense.
Stay within the SAM umbrella, and repulse the forthcoming counterattack from IDF.
Israel lost heavily.

Syrias plan: Banzai attack w 1000 unsupported tanks vs the Golan Heights.- Losing a LOT.
Israelis unlike Syrians did not have night fighting equipment, but still won night fights.
Better to sneak up infantry w RPGs/Saggers during the night, to make sure that the Israelis
cannot reach their prepared positions.
Israelis also positioned tanks at choke points, and those allowed the Israelis to kill off tanks before they
could make their guns bear at the Israelis. Supporting Infantry would solve that problem.

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## mahatir

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> the gap was caused by the attack we did outside of our air defence cover this attack was to try to help in the syrian front everything before this was going perfect in the Egyptian front



this is exactly what I told him , man it would have been better for Egypt to have went along back in 1973 , simply Syrian army is weak since special forces and elite troops are only recruited from tribes and clans related to Assad whom only form 10% of syrian population. 

Egypt was defeated in 1967 war because of Nasser policy of recruiting officers based on loyalty rather than quality , Sadat changed this trend which lead to Egypt performing much better in 1973 war and during war of attrition on the other hand Syrian regime still appoints soldiers not only based on loyalty but also tribal links . 

I am here referring to full time professionals in Syrian army , most than 80% of them come from tribes and clans related to Assad while temporary conscripts whom serve for 1 year are poorly trained and anyhow most countries have been reducing the number of conscripts including Egypt for greater firepower and efficiency , but still syrian regime is stock with the soviet era mentality.



Syrian Lion said:


> @mahatir you know nothing about Black September, you saying Jordan beat the Syrian army, but you don't know facts, do you know that the Jordanian air force attacked the Syrian army that easily invaded Jordan, ONE DIVISION OF THE SYRIAN ARMY INVADED JORDAN, without the Syrian air force, and the Syrian air force was never used in the conflict... so STFU, go get educated and learn some facts... you are comparing the whole Jordanian army victory over ONE DIVISION of Syrian army with no air support... which made their kings beg the west for help... all your information about the conflict is wrong, because you are racist and ignorant... the Syrian army is not composed of tribes, it is composed of Syrian people.. every Syrian is part of the Syrian military, your racist false information are not worth of replying...
> 
> now I'm ending this discussion, since you are comparing the victory of the Jordan with West over ONE DIVISION of the Syrian army, it is actually an honor, that it took a the west and Jordan to fight ONE DIVISION THAT INVADED JORDAN...



I am very clear in my words , I am talking about special and elite forces in the Syrian army including full time soldiers more than 80% of these come from tribes and clans related to Assad. 

For god sake you cant count 1 year temporary conscripts as proper soldiers , they are poorly trained and have no experience, yes most temporary conscripts from from other sects in syria , but they are poorly trained to ensure that no coup would be carried out against the regime while elite forces are solely from Assad sect and related tribes. 

Both Egypt and Jordan did perform well against Israel but syria;s Assad army always got its *** kicked and needed others to save it from complete destruction , before iraq and jordan saved your *** , today its hezbollah and other foreign mercenaries.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Hazzy997 said:


> @A.P. Richelieu
> 
> I'm not even wasting my time with you, expected that, deflect all blame on the victims and accuse a 'minority' of extremists of wanting the West Bank . Actually a minority don't want to colonize it, otherwise we wouldn't be where we are today you troll.


Interesting enough, this post gave me my first positive rating after ~150 posts.

Your rating after 6000+ posts (positive - negative) adds up to, lets see... Oh Yes: "1"


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## Falcon29

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Interesting enough, this post gave me my first positive rating after ~150 posts.
> 
> Your rating after 6000+ posts (positive - negative) adds up to, lets see... Oh Yes: "1"



That's cute and and all but no thanks.


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## Mahmoud_EGY

mahatir said:


> this is exactly what I told him , man it would have been better for Egypt to have went along back in 1973 , simply Syrian army is weak since special forces and elite troops are only recruited from tribes and clans related to Assad whom only form 10% of syrian population.
> 
> Egypt was defeated in 1967 war because of Nasser policy of recruiting officers based on loyalty rather than quality , Sadat changed this trend which lead to Egypt performing much better in 1973 war and during war of attrition on the other hand Syrian regime still appoints soldiers not only based on loyalty but also tribal links .


also in 67 war lack of planing what happened is isreal threating to attack syria so nasser order the army to go to sanai as warning or like general shazly said a military protest with out being ready to fight which is exactly what the isrealis wanted of course everyone knows how this story ended

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## Hakan

Coalitions always run into issues and in recent times Arabs have been fighting wars in this format. This over complicates things and causes one country to depend on the other. If one messes up then that effects everyone else. Also the various countries have different objectives so that also affects the effectiveness of the force itself.

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## mahatir

Mahmoud_EGY said:


> also in 67 war lack of planing what happened is isreal threating to attack syria so nasser order the army to go to sanai as warning or like general shazly said a military protest with out being ready to fight which is exactly what the isrealis wanted of course everyone knows how this story ended



He should have had backup plans before taking any action , after all he was stupid and wasted Egypt resources on worthless wars like yemen . 

If he had not let sudan accede from Egypt , Today Egypt would have been in a strong position to impose its will on ethiopia when it comes to water nile , as you know the nile basin source is only 40 km from sudanese border . 

he committed grave mistakes that Egypt is still paying for until today , especially letting Sudan go away .

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## livingdead

whatever said about arabs applies to Indian (dare I say all south asian) forces.


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## jaibi

hinduguy said:


> whatever said about arabs applies to Indian (dare I say all south asian) forces.


True.
We lose wars because we haven't learnt the art of modern warfare.
We were fodder, not officers; we repeat that.mentality everywhere.


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## Falcon29

Egyptian Syria 1973 war combat footage:






@Frogman @Mahmoud_EGY @Syrian Lion

I just finished watching a documentary on the Sinai battle, it says Israel lost 1/3 of its airforce in the first two days and many of their tanks were destroyed, they had a limited number. So what happened? The US resupplied them everything and gave them intelligence right?

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## Yzd Khalifa

hinduguy said:


> whatever said about arabs applies to Indian (dare I say all south asian) forces.



South East Asians have gone through a lot over the last two centuries. 

The so-called colonialists exploited them to death. Only the lord knows how many poor Indians of the subcontinent have died in wars, contractions of trail ways in the UK, and so on. 

@anonymus @Contrarian

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## Falcon29

Yzd Khalifa said:


> South East Asians have gone through a lot over the last two centuries.
> 
> The so-called colonialists exploited them to death. Only the lord knows how many poor Indians of the subcontinent have died in wars, contractions of trail ways in the UK, and so on.
> 
> @anonymus @Contrarian



So called colonialists? Why don't you just call them angels?


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## anonymus

Yzd Khalifa said:


> South East Asians have gone through a lot over the last two centuries.
> 
> The so-called colonialists exploited them to death. Only the lord knows how many poor Indians of the subcontinent have died in wars, contractions of trail ways in the UK, and so on.
> 
> @anonymus @Contrarian




That is more of a leftist take on colonialism. Frankly,there were lot of positives in British Rule.

In 1857, which was the largest insurgency against British, i would have sided with Britain had i had a chance for the choice otherwise was between a drunkard who spend all his time in a seraglio and some 500 odd bickering and dishonorable petty kings against Britain.

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## Yzd Khalifa

Hazzy997 said:


> So called colonialists? Why don't you just call them angels?



You know nothing about what that colonialism had brought to these people. 




anonymus said:


> That is more of a leftist take on colonialism. Frankly,there were lot of positives in British Rule.
> 
> In 1857, which was the largest insurgency against British, i would have sided with Britain had i had a chance for the choice otherwise was between a drunkard who spend all his time in a seraglio and some 500 odd bickering and dishonorable petty kings against Britain.



Point taken. 

There are positive aspects for sure. However, there had been lots and lots of negative aspects as well my friend. 

The reference you gave to the 1857 insurgency is quite legitimate though.

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## Falcon29

Yzd Khalifa said:


> You know nothing about what that colonialism had brought to these people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Are you pro or anti colonialism?


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## anonymus

Yzd Khalifa said:


> You know nothing about what that colonialism had brought to these people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point taken.
> 
> There are positive aspects for sure. However, there had been lots and lots of negative aspects as well my friend.
> 
> The reference you gave to the 1857 insurgency is quite legitimate though.




India and China never suffered the kind of colonialism that is synonyms with Africa. Since the start of 20th century most of affairs of India were managed by Indians and Indians were politically active since 1860, the culmination of which was formation of Congress in 1885.

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## Syrian Lion

Hazzy997 said:


> Egyptian Syria 1973 war combat footage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Frogman @Mahmoud_EGY @Syrian Lion
> 
> I just finished watching a documentary on the Sinai battle, it says Israel lost 1/3 of its airforce in the first two days and many of their tanks were destroyed, they had a limited number. So what happened?* The US resupplied them everything and gave them intelligence right*?


Yes, the US basically fought in the war, some say the US only resupplied, but the truth, the US gave Israel all the intelligence and free WEAPONRY , so basically USA was fighting, now some might argue that the soviet also resupplied Egypt and Syria, however, it wasn't like the west's full support to Israel...

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## A.P. Richelieu

Syrian Lion said:


> Yes, the US basically fought in the war, some say the US only resupplied, but the truth, the US gave Israel all the intelligence and free WEAPONRY , so basically USA was fighting, now some might argue that the soviet also resupplied Egypt and Syria, however, it wasn't like the west's full support to Israel...



Both USA (SR-71) and Russia (MiG-25) made reconaissance flights over the canal zone.
That is really not "participating".

Only Russians participated actively in combat mostly in SAM units (some were captured by Israelis).
Only USA made contributions to Israel, not the rest of the NATO countries.
Very few actually allowed US aircrafts to land for refuelling.

There were a lot of other countries sending soldiers to fight for Arabs.
Pakistan, Iraq, Cuba, North Korea etc. Did not help.

So Arabs were betting on the wrong side in the East - West conflict.
Making the wrong decisions is no good if You want to win a war.

Kissinger told Israel not to crush the third army, so US intervened on the Arab side as well.


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## JattSikhsoldier

hussain0216 said:


> The arabs conquered half of france, all of spain, half of italy, northern africa, the middle east defeating the byzantine empire and persian empire Their current problems are due to division but dont compare them to indians, indians have done nothing in terms of militaryv achievements compared to the arabs


Actually Jatt Sikhs have an impressive military history, even till this day the Indian army is 95% Jatt or Sikh people, that same Arab Mohammad bin qasim who defeated the Persians lost against the Jatt Sikhs, you have to realize that the subcontinent doesn't have an impressive expansion history due to internal warfare, but they do have a great defensive history, Pathans and Jatts literally annihilated the British Empire, an achievement Arabs can't do in the past nor now either, these same Pathans and Jatts annihilated the Russians in the 1980s to from stepping into any area of Pakistani space, they also defeated the Mongols who had the largest land empire in history, these same Mongols are push overs in Afghanistan now, even Alexander who conquered Arab lands didn't even get close to taking northern Pakistan, to form an army and expand take coordination and strategy, to defend your homeland against outside invaders takes bravery and heart, majority of Saudi men are unfit for military service and are begging Pakistan to spare some soldiers to fight against Yemen, the whole Saudi peninsula is under Zionist hands, you have a small Israeli state who tells every Arab nation what to do, in contrast, here around the areas of Pakistan, it takes 36 white nations called NATO to even make a dent in the Pashtun tribesmen, and they're still failing right now, Persians had an expansion history also, then Arabs managed to win afterwards, now if Persians go to war with Arabs, they literally can annihilate the Middle East, majority of Islam expansion into Europe was from Turks and Moors, those same people were then colonized from French people, like I said, looking at Mongolia right now, you would never guess that Ghengis Khan was from there, because they can't fight America right now, but till this day and age, the people of northern Pakistan can challenge Europeans and still not be subjugated, there is a reason why the real graveyard of empires is actually the Karlani Pathans and Gujjars of Pakistan and not Afghanistan. Arabs only had a moment like Mongols did, till this day, the tribal people near areas of Pakistan are not easily subjugated even with no tanks or aircraft.


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## Ceylal

Falcon29 said:


> So called colonialists? Why don't you just call them angels?



the video has been removed from Youtube..


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## The SC

Till the 60's more Arab countries were under foreign colonization.
In 1948 The Palestinians fought against England, an empire then! Usraelis took advantage of that in a resemblance of fight, but it is the brits who have killed more than 40 000 Palestinian lightly armed..
In 1967, The Arabs fought England and mainly France(the main colonial powers who were forced to give the Arabs their independance not long before that war) through their Proxy Usrael.
Usrael is a Western creation (readabout Disraeli the prime minister of England much befor the World wars and Genocide..
These are the facts why the Arabs lost the wars before 1973.

The Arabs started fighting in 1973 and won the war, despite pressure, threats and more than 50 billion $ of arms ressuplies by the US and Nato forces to Usrael in few days, the arabs had ressuplies in the hundreds of millions from The USSR...


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## Mugwop

Well the answer is simple they were betrayed by their own people.
In the past arabian people have won many wars I don't know why only their losses are highlighted


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