# Pakistan's navy interested in Chinese submarines and advance naval ships



## TaimiKhan

*Pakistan's navy interested in Chinese submarines and advance naval ships*


*The chief of Pakistan's naval staff Noman Bashir said he looks forward to see more cooperation in the submarine field between China and his country yesterday during a press interview in the Pakistani embassy in Beijing. The visiting navy chief already met with Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie in Beijing on Friday last week, according to Xinhua News Agency.*

In addition to submarines, the admiral told China Daily yesterday that he has talked to Chinese officials buying bigger ships than the current F22P frigates. Pakistan ordered the F22P frigates from China in 2005 and the first one began sea trials last year. According an earlier story on the website of the People's Daily, Pakistan ordered four more F22P frigates in 2007, which means there will eventually be eight such warships in the Pakistani Navy

"The F22P frigate is about 3,000 tons, and now we are talking about 4,000-ton ships. .These are very big projects and we think the cooperation is important for both countries, especially Pakistan." Bashir highly praised the Chinese military technology, saying he's happy to say that China is keeping pace with the changing world and efficiently adopting new technologies.

He said the warships are of the latest technology, and have the all-round capability to target surface ships, aircraft and submarine. "The F22P frigate can be deployed to complete multitasks. The ship is balanced for offense and defense, and can be used in both peace and war time, if there is a war." The first of the four F22P frigates ordered by Pakistan was delivered in July this year and is already in service.

The admiral stressed that this was his third visit to China this year because Pakistan attaches great importance to its cooperation with China not only on naval matters but in other fields. He said the F22P and JF-17 Thunder fighter plane are the two major projects in addition to other projects including development of ammunition, design, equipment and weapons.

The admiral said his country plans to buy more weapons from China in the future, such as bigger ships and missiles.Zhai Dequan, deputy director of China Arms Control and Disarmament Association said that Pakistan's proposal in submarine cooperation is likely aimed at its sea border protection.

"The initiative may invite concerns from its neighboring countries. But the doubts are unnecessary." Zhai said it is normal for an independent country such as Pakistan to actively seek military defense, and meanwhile India also has large projects with the US and Russia. "India's aircraft carrier has already cost it billions of US dollars." He added.

China Daily

Reactions: Like Like:
22


----------



## truepakistani17

i hope this cooperation do not come as an alternative to the U214 deal.. 
infact a cooperation in submarine building after PN have experienced the Agostas and the U214 will be more fruitfull for both countries. U214 are, without any doubt among the best conventional submarines of the present times...
well i sincerely wish that PN, some how do get there hands on that ship and after that the Pak-China submarine project will work wonder for us!
what do you think about it??

thanks!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan

StealthQL-707PK said:


> Hope it will happened, great news.
> 
> One thing I am not sure is Pakistan had experienced with Agosta 90Bs (PNS Saad & PNS Hamza) including 'Transfer of Technology' from France, does Pakistan capable to make it own submarines?
> 
> Perhaps if you said, resources not enough in Pakistan, it costs more prices if ordering more parts from France.



Making the sub won't be a problem, issue is the combat systems and other stuff inside the submarine which we did not got. We only got the ToT for making the structure and some other stuff, some of the issues left, which are critical to operating the sub.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Pak needs to stay away from chinese subs---german or french that is the only option---surface ships we can deal with---but submersibles are in a totally different league.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## mjnaushad

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak needs to stay away from chinese subs---german or french that is the only option---surface ships we can deal with---but submersibles are in a totally different league.


How about keeping both of them. The French + Chinese + German. And for the French subs why do we need to buy more. The last sub was built in Pakistan. Right? So we have the tech to build subs.


----------



## TaimiKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak needs to stay away from chinese subs---german or french that is the only option---surface ships we can deal with---but submersibles are in a totally different league.



Well there is nothing bad for the time being in checking out the Chinese subs for the time being, atleast PN should know what Chinese newest capabilities are compared to western subs as we have been using french subs for quiet sometime and must have known about U-214 quiet a bit in the time when PN was evaluating it. We all know China has been on a hunting spree for its military programs since a decade or more and having acquired some blue prints of sub technology from western countries may be a possibility. 

Atleast we will know where they stand if checked out their latest Yuan class sub, said to be a good platform as per Chinese and western defence sources, i know they may be rumors, but we can get a chance to check them out and compare it with our Agosta's and see is it superior or inferior to it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## jupiter2007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak needs to stay away from chinese subs---german or french that is the only option---surface ships we can deal with---but submersibles are in a totally different league.



What about Type 039 & 41 submarine (NATO code name Song class & Yuan class)? are they better then Agosta 90b?


----------



## TaimiKhan

jupiter2007 said:


> What about Type 039 & 41 submarine (NATO code name Song class & Yuan class)? Is it better then Agosta 90b?



There is Type 041 submarine Yuan Class submarine which is more advanced then the Song 039 class. Said to be having AIP system too. 

This one we should check and see what it is like.


----------



## Adios Amigo

This is raising doubts in my minds over the U214 deal. We were so close to strike a deal and if it cant be done right now it would be really a sad news. Although nothing confirm for now, but U boats are the way to go. It is also plausible that due to Indian motives of building at least six nuclear subs and more conventional subs, the Pakistan Navy is trying to expand its sub fleet in response. Coming few weeks will clear up the situation. Even if U 214 deal doesnt work out (thanks to bugs bunny, Zardari), France is there to provide us with a decent package of Merlin.
Any how a deal with china for subs should be seen as a positive step, towards more self reliance and building of new capabilities. When ever in the past the west has denied us any weapon or technology we ended up building it our self with china, successfully, like thunders and Al-Khalid. So the future is bright, and we should be happy and contended in this regard.










adios

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan

adeos amigo said:


> This is raising doubts in my minds over the U214 deal. We were so close to strike a deal and if it cant be done right now it would be really a sad news. Although nothing confirm for now, but U boats are the way to go. It is also plausible that due to Indian motives of building at least six nuclear subs and more conventional subs, the Pakistan Navy is trying to expand its sub fleet in response. Coming few weeks will clear up the situation. Even if U 214 deal doesnt work out (thanks to bugs bunny, Zardari), France is there to provide us with a decent package of Merlin.
> Any how a deal with china for subs should be seen as a positive step, towards more self reliance and building of new capabilities. When ever in the past the west has denied us any weapon or technology we ended up building it our self with china, successfully, like thunders and Al-Khalid. So the future is bright, and we should be happy and contended in this regard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adios



Recent indications and the ambiguity in making the decision gives a lot of credibility that U-214 deal is nearly dead, and if that happens don't expect French to be offering a good deal as they know we won't have anywhere else to go to, so they will raise their demands and we already know french sell very expensive military equipment, they are known for it through out the world. 

Best option for PN is right now to atleast check out the Chinese newest sub if China gives the go ahead as the new Type-041 is said to be influenced by the Improved Kilo class design and some features from the Chinese Song class sub, mixture of both. So checking it out is not bad for health, who knows it might prove good enough for PN. 

And Merlin is just on the papers, no one sure how long it will gonna take for them to develop it and a completely new platform gives problems too, plus PN would be only its operator, with U-214 we had many options for spares, as U-214 is being inducted by many navies, Turkish gonna make it, South Korea already inducted it and making it in their own country.


----------



## Adios Amigo

taimikhan said:


> Recent indications and the ambiguity in making the decision gives a lot of credibility that U-214 deal is nearly dead, and if that happens don't expect French to be offering a good deal as they know we won't have anywhere else to go to, so they will raise their demands and we already know french sell very expensive military equipment, they are known for it through out the world.
> 
> Best option for PN is right now to atleast check out the Chinese newest sub if China gives the go ahead as the new Type-041 is said to be influenced by the Improved Kilo class design and some features from the Chinese Song class sub, mixture of both. So checking it out is not bad for health, who knows it might prove good enough for PN.
> 
> And Merlin is just on the papers, no one sure how long it will gonna take for them to develop it and a completely new platform gives problems too, plus PN would be only its operator, with U-214 we had many options for spares, as U-214 is being inducted by many navies, Turkish gonna make it, South Korea already inducted it and making it in their own country.



agreed, i think we are on the same line. My point about Merlin was, that western tech is still available, for the money.







adios


----------



## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> There is Type 041 submarine Yuan Class submarine which is more advanced then the Song 039 class. Said to be having AIP system too.
> 
> This one we should check and see what it is like.



*Song class&#65292;Type-039

Yuan class&#65292;Type-039A&#65288;AIP)*


----------



## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> Recent indications and the ambiguity in making the decision gives a lot of credibility that U-214 deal is nearly dead, and if that happens don't expect French to be offering a good deal as they know we won't have anywhere else to go to, so they will raise their demands and we already know french sell very expensive military equipment, they are known for it through out the world.
> 
> Best option for PN is right now to atleast check out the Chinese newest sub if China gives the go ahead *as the new Type-041 is said to be influenced by the Improved Kilo class design *and some features from the Chinese Song class sub, mixture of both. So checking it out is not bad for health, who knows it might prove good enough for PN.
> 
> And Merlin is just on the papers, no one sure how long it will gonna take for them to develop it and a completely new platform gives problems too, plus PN would be only its operator, with U-214 we had many options for spares, as U-214 is being inducted by many navies, Turkish gonna make it, South Korea already inducted it and making it in their own country.



*compare yuan and kilo*

1&#12289;

kilo


yuan


2&#12289;

kilo


yuan

3&#12289;

kilo



yuan

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## DaRk WaVe

> Recent indications and the ambiguity in making the decision gives a lot of credibility that U-214 deal is nearly dead, and if that happens don't expect French to be offering a good deal as they know we won't have anywhere else to go to, so they will raise their demands and we already know french sell very expensive military equipment, they are known for it through out the world.



I hope its just 'checking', we can cooperate with Chinese for subs but I WANT U-214 
No French Subs at all & no Chinese Subs *for now*, we must get U-214


----------



## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak needs to stay away from chinese subs---german or french that is the only option---surface ships we can deal with---but submersibles are in a totally different league.



i would rather prefer joint development for bigger and better subs. Expertise gained by Augusta and possible U-214 and Type 093 094 095, kilo and other Chinese Platforms will certainly help Chinese and Pakistan creating better generation of subs


----------



## TaimiKhan

emo_girl said:


> I hope its just 'checking', we can cooperate with Chinese for subs but I WANT U-214
> No French Subs at all & no Chinese Subs *for now*, we must get U-214



Well it seems very difficult for the time being that we will get U-214s


----------



## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> *compare yuan and kilo*



If you are trying to say it is not so, then kindly go to the international defence related articles who quote the similarities, or even Chinese forums who say so. And as i said it is a mixture of both Improved Kilo the Project 636 which China got, and some best features of the Song too. If you look at the front hull, its clearly a tear drop shaped just like the Kilo, even in of the pictures the back side hump looks similar to what Kilo has. Its the word similar, not exactly the same, little bit own designing can be done in it from where it is copied. 

So the Yuan does have similarities from Kilo and Song, showing it got influenced by both the designs. 

Plus the designation that whether its a variant of Type-039 or its completely a new Type-041 is also in debate as Chinese officially has not declassified about it anything, so the type thing is also debatable. 

But Nato has given it a different class designation to be Yuan Class. 

Plus below are the pictures of all three and see the similarities. 

*Song Class*







*Yuan Class*



*Kilo Class*




Yuan seems to be the mixture of both Kilo and Song

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> If you are trying to say it is not so, then kindly go to the international defence related articles who
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 039A's Stirling AIP module
> 
> 
> Stirling engine principle of machine
> 
> 
> *kilo and song are the 2nd Generation submarines
> 
> yuan is the 3rd Generation submarine*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## jalip

atomic submarine corporation will be on card i feel it with lack of funding instead of spending navel share of u boats on conventional subs navy decides to go for it

that's my thoughts


----------



## pak-yes

any thoughts that would PN ask chinese cooperation on making a nuclear sub or will the chinese will be willing to provide it.


----------



## Chanakyaa

pak-yes said:


> any thoughts that would PN ask chinese cooperation on making a nuclear sub or will the chinese will be willing to provide it.



Pakistan got some experiance in building subs.
The major issue will that be of the Reactor Design, This is where Pakistan will find Chinese help very instrumetal.


----------



## Tomahawk

pak-yes said:


> any thoughts that would PN ask chinese cooperation on making a nuclear sub or will the chinese will be willing to provide it.



Selling of nuclear submarine is prohibited, the best we can do is lease a Chinese nuclear sub, and operate it can get an experience how to operate a nuclear sub (just like india did with russia) and seek china's cooperation for putting in place an infrastructure of building and developing nuclear sub of our own. But every thing comes with money so significant allocation of funds by government would be required for R&D.


----------



## pak-yes

^^yes you are right nuclear subs demand big money and they are not probably as much important to us as an advance AIP sub


----------



## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> taimikhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are trying to say it is not so, then kindly go to the international defence related articles who
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 039A's Stirling AIP module
> 
> 
> Stirling engine principle of machine
> 
> 
> *kilo and song are the 2nd Generation submarines
> 
> yuan is the 3rd Generation submarine*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I fully agree Sir, i did not said it is 2nd gen or that it is a copy of Kilo or something else. I meant to say that it is a more advanced submarine with some physical features resemblance to Kilo and Song, and capabilities making it a 3rd generation of Chinese Subs. There is nothing bad in saying it has Kilo influence or Song, as it has the best of both and added to that its own capabilities making it better then the other two.
Click to expand...


----------



## nightrider_saulat

BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE SHOULD LEAVE OUR FIRST CHOICE OF GETTING TYPE-214


----------



## TOPGUN

Inded its good news to hear all this but i think when it comes to chinese we need to just stick to the surface ships subs are a whole another ball game eather german or french ... is wat we need.


----------



## Super Falcon

i always wanted pakistan to buy destroyers from china and im sure in future we are and some subs from china along with U 214 will make deadle combination but im not sure that in 2007 PN gave order for 4 more F 22p


----------



## PAFAce

This news report says nothing about scrapping the U-214 deal. It merely says that Pakistan would like ot look into Chinese submarine and other naval systems, that is all. I don't see any hidden messages or implied statements. I say why not take a look at bigger surface ships and advanced submarines that China can produce. Transfer of Technology and good economic relations make any joint venture with China worth it.

It is good news, people, stop trying to turn it into a bad one.


----------



## Quwa

This will likely be in addition to U214s.

Secondly, I'm not sure if this means that PN will buy a Chinese submarine off-the-shelf (such as Song or Yuan). It may be more interested in joining the development of their next-gen SSK (source-link).


----------



## MZUBAIR

PN desperately need U214, No other submarines is valuable.

No need for Chinese Sub at the moment but yes PN can work on joint production&#8230;..PN already have experience of Submarines manufacturing on Augusta 70B, PN can work on joint production for Nuclear submarine with China.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

We should first acquire HDW U214s.

They are still the most advanced, and would meet our requirements (at least in my opinion)


apart from that, on the naval front we must work closely with not just Chinese but also Republic of Turkey. We are having close cooperation with these countries in this regard.


----------



## jupiter2007

MZUBAIR said:


> PN desperately need U214, No other submarines is valuable.
> 
> No need for Chinese Sub at the moment but yes PN can work on joint production..PN already have experience of Submarines manufacturing on Augusta 70B, PN can work on joint production for Nuclear submarine with China.



Pakistan is probably want to start Nuclear sub project with China.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Babur Han

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> We should first acquire HDW U214s.
> 
> They are still the most advanced, and would meet our requirements (at least in my opinion)
> 
> 
> apart from that, on the naval front we must work closely with not just Chinese but also Republic of Turkey. We are having close cooperation with these countries in this regard.




I think a cooperation in Submarine development in Future between Turkey and Pakistan is possible. Turkish Firms have developed some components for Submarines like Sonar, Periscope, Torpedo Decoys and there are also turkish Torpedo in development. Turkey has Experience in Building Submarines under License. Now, I mean the next Year Turkey should Focus on MILGEM and the development of some Submarine related Components for U-214 TN. When this Steps are finished i would highly enjoy a joint-Development of Submarines.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TaimiKhan

Skywalker1983 said:


> I think a cooperation in Submarine development in Future between Turkey and Pakistan is possible. Turkish Firms have developed some components for Submarines like Sonar, Periscope, Torpedo Decoys and there are also turkish Torpedo in development. Turkey has Experience in Building Submarines under License. Now, I mean the next Year Turkey should Focus on MILGEM and the development of some Submarine related Components for U-214 TN. When this Steps are finished i would highly enjoy a joint-Development of Submarines.



I believe Pakistan in future will get into multi projects with turkey in defence fields, submarine one of them being. 

But problem is we need at this time and in 3-4 years time 3-5 submarines to keep up a force capable enough to counter the superior IN which would be having latest subs and ships in few years time.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## owais.usmani

*Yuan Class:*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gasht

Most Chinese hardware are third rate knock-offs of soviet era bungling inefficient and infective weaponry.

all respect to the Chinese military and it&#8217;s modern supreme weaponry and debit of gratitude for aide of pakistan in many endeavours

We need to get nuclear subs( nuclear subs require less maintenance and we already have the know-how of nuke science and we need channel it to the appropriate product)


Some European countries would be willing to help us, such as France, or lease it like our enemy is about to do and we will borrow the tech as well 

last certainly not least. please for god sake get one air craft carrier (america is churning them out like hot potatoes) surely we could get one. First nuclear muslim power. First muslim country to operate an aircraft carrier.... pakistan is the most allied of allies, fighting terrorism and protecting the american people against terrorist attacks by brunting them upon itself..... what are friends for if they can't lent us one crummy little aircraft carrier, ( we might even build them their pipeline which they've been yearning for......

I certainly can guarantee that our arch rival nemesis will probably obtain american subs or air craft carrier in the next few year or at-least an agreement will be signed


----------



## Adios Amigo

Gasht said:


> Most Chinese hardware are knock-offs of third rate soviet era bungling inefficient and infective weaponry.



Emotional poster, with no idea of what he is talking about. What do you know about chinese hard ware??? and would like to explain the inefficient and inefective chinese weaponry??



Gasht said:


> all respect to the Chinese military and its modern supreme weaponry and debit of gratitude for aide of pakistan in many endeavours



no need for that,Your opening statement explains your gratitude.


Gasht said:


> We need to get nuclear subs( nuclear subs require less maintenance and we already have the know-how of nuke science and we need channel it to the appropriate product)



who said that nuclear subs require less maintenance?? the second part of this statement is even more rediculous, where does our nuclear know how exactly stand???wouldnt it be more appropriate to use that emence know how to over come enenrgy crisis?? 


Gasht said:


> Some European countries would be willing to help us, such as France, or lease it like our enemy is about to do and we will borrow the tech as well



again shooting out of the mist, which european country is willing to help you ???? and y would the lease you their nuclear subs?? 


Gasht said:


> last certainly not least. please for god sake get one air craft carrier (america is churning them out like hot potatoes) surely we could get one. First nuclear muslim power. First muslim country to operate an aircraft carrier.... pakistan is the most allied of allies, fighting terrorism and protecting the american people against terrorist attacks by brunting them upon itself..... what are friends for if they can't lent us one crummy little aircraft carrier, ( we might even build them their pipeline which they've been yearning for......



i can only feal sorry for your wet dreams. firstly we dont need an aircraft carrier,secondly nither we have the money for buying nor maintaining a battle group, thridly we dont have the infrastucture to induct an AC, and lastly why would america sell u an AC?? when they were even reluctant to give you the F-16s latest blocks, wat was the need for making JF-17s if we were so chumies?? wake up>reality check


Gasht said:


> I certainly can guarantee that our arch rival nemesis will probably obtain american subs or air craft carrier in the next few year or at-least an agreement will be signed



thats possible but your speculations dont guarantee any thing, infact your whole post is a joke, showing your naive thoughts.





adios.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

any idea of running costs of nuclear submarine??


----------



## jamal18

Zhai Dequan, deputy director of China Arms Control and Disarmament Association said that Pakistan's proposal in submarine cooperation is likely aimed at its sea border protection.

"The initiative may invite concerns from its neighboring countries. But the doubts are unnecessary." Zhai said it is normal for an independent country such as Pakistan to actively seek military defense, and meanwhile India also has large projects with the US and Russia. "India's aircraft carrier has already cost it billions of US dollars." He added.

China Daily[/QUOTE]

1. 'sea border protection' something short range like a small coastal submarine?

2.'concerns from its neighboring countries'? Some thing really high tech and significant?

3."India's aircraft carrier has already cost it billions of US dollars." He added.
Some thing expensive?

I believe that a nuclear powered submarine is out of the question; china has signed the NPT and this would be a violation. China never supplied Pakistan with missiles that broke the NPT.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Definitly China is a great Super Power peaceful nation that has great trade, and its people are innovative and smart 

I think if Pakistan donates 500 engineers , to project it would be great to cooperate building new lines of Submarines with Chinese cooperation


----------



## rapidkiss

wangrong said:


> *Song class&#65292;Type-039
> 
> Yuan class&#65292;Type-039A&#65288;AIP)*



I could be wrong but my understanding is the following:

Type 039 submarine class, code name Song, has 3 versions: 039, 039G and Type 039A

Type 041 submarine class, code name Yuan. (a new variation 041A may be undergoing R&D)


----------



## wangrong

rapidkiss said:


> I could be wrong but my understanding is the following:
> 
> Type 039 submarine class, code name Song, has 3 versions: 039, 039G and Type 039A
> 
> Type 041 submarine class, code name Yuan. (a new variation 041A may be undergoing R&D)



*Song, has 3 versions: 039, 039G and 039G1
yuan, has 1 versions:039A*


----------



## unicorn148

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> any idea of running costs of nuclear submarine??



nuclear subs are not for sale . the can only be leased because china has signed the nuclear agreement that's why india is making its own nuclear sub


----------



## Adios Amigo

unicorn148 said:


> nuclear subs are not for sale . the can only be leased because china has signed the nuclear agreement that's why india is making its own nuclear sub



he never said anything about the sale of a nuclear sub, he just wanted to to clarify the earlier poster about the operational costs of a nuclear-sub, which are much higher then a conventional sub.









adios


----------



## Penguin

StealthQL-707PK said:


> Yes, we will receive the *FIRST* *4,000* long tons from US, USS McInerney (FFG-8). The 32 year old frigate will be upgraded on refurbishment with cost 65 million dollar. It will transfer to Pakistan on August 2010.



That picture would be an Arleigh Burke class destroyer (flight 2A variant), not a Perry class frigate (which is less than half the displacement of an AB-F2A).


----------



## lmjiao

There is no code name such as 041 of Chinese submarines.

The actual code names are:
039, 039G, 039G1 as posted by wangrong. Here the letter _G_ means _Change_ in Chinese. There are called _the Song Class_ by NATO, but not their original Chinese type name.

039A. Though the type name is similar to 039, but they are totally different classes. The same thing happens between destroyer 052 and 052C.

The nick name of 039A called by NATO is _Yuan Class_ , also not it's original Chinese name.

Another prove of the fact that the code name 041 does not exist is:
In Chinese code names the second number stands for its type.
Examples are : 
051,051B,051C,052,052B,052C,053,054,054A The second number _5_ stands for surface ships.
039,039G,039G1,039A The second number _3_ stands for conventional submarines.
091,092,093,094 The second number _9_ stands for nuclear submarines.
As listed above, the code name of _Yuan Class_ must be 03X, for it's code name for submarines.

I'm not familiar with military words in English, hope you could understand words above. 

Best wishes.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## oct605032048

Basically correct. but about the nuclear submarines it is actually 09I, 09II, 09III and 09IV.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## owais.usmani

A comparison of the Chinese Type 054A with other advanced ships of Asia:

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Super Falcon

i think PN needs huge destroyers we are sick of small frigates and destroyers can carry more anti sub helicopter anti aircraft sam systems


----------



## nightrider_saulat

owais.usmani said:


> *Yuan Class:*


*it looks very similar to russian kilo class subs*


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

nightrider_saulat said:


> *it looks very similar to russian kilo class subs*



Cute sub looks like orca


----------



## nightrider_saulat

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Cute sub looks like orca



*i don't like this sub even our agosta 90b is a lot better this one*


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

nightrider_saulat said:


> *i don't like this sub even our agosta 90b is a lot better this one*



Muft main mil rahi hai , tu nakre kiya kerna?, Le letein hain 

Keep it coming

3 Agosta
3 Merlin
3 U214
6 Chinese Subs 

Yes this would be a minimum - must for a navy ...

I think time is right to really say YES to every one and no to no one

Don't keep all apples in one basket as the popular saying goes

And its not a beauti pagent , Ms Submarine contest - its what it can launch under water


----------



## Arsalan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Muft main mil rahi hai , tu nakre kiya kerna?, Le letein hain
> 
> Keep it coming
> 
> 3 Agosta
> 3 Merlin
> 3 U214
> 6 Chinese Subs
> 
> Yes this would be a minimum - must for a navy ...
> 
> I think time is right to really say YES to every one and no to no one
> 
> Don't keep all apples in one basket as the popular saying goes
> 
> And its not a beauti pagent , Ms Submarine contest - its what it can launch under water



it will be a lot better to stick to ferwer options rather then getting threee of every class available,,,,
currently we are operating three Agostas and now if PN eventually do go forward with the U214 deal three of this class plus an additional two of either agostas or U214 as the funds allow will do good foor PN future.
Chines subs may only come into play once we have gained enough knowledge of westren subs in shape of U214z and agostas and then can use it to modify the chines subs according to requirments!!!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

these boats are huge!!!!





regards!


----------



## Arsalan

> China is beginning work on a new strategic submarine that will be targeted against U.S. nuclear forces and carry missiles with small warheads similar to American weapons, The Washington Times has learned.
> 
> The People's Liberation Army Navy will start construction in the next several weeks on its first Type 094 missile submarine, according to Pentagon and other administration officials with access to intelligence reports.
> 
> Preparations for the construction were detected by U.S. spy agencies and reported to senior Pentagon officials late last month. The submarine will carry a smaller underwater variant of China's new DF-31 -- Continued from Front Page -- intercontinental ballistic missile, which was flight-tested in August.
> 
> The JL-2 submarine-launched missile to be deployed on the Type 094 and the DF-31 are the first strategic systems that will contain stolen U.S. warhead and missile secrets, the officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told The Times.
> 
> That view contradicts claims of other administration officials who believe there is no evidence so far that Chinese strategic weapons will be copied from U.S. systems.
> 
> According to the intelligence officials, the new Type 094 is being built to provide "a strategic deterrent" to the United States. Both the JL-2 and the first Type 094 are expected to be deployed around 2005 or 2006. The JL-2 also is known as the Julang-2 and will have a range of about 7,400 miles. Julang means Great Wave in Chinese.
> 
> "These missiles will be able to hit any place in the United States, not just the Western states," said one official. "That's a significant new capability." The Type 094 will carry 12 or 16 JL-2 submarine-launched ballistic missiles that were described in one intelligence report as a smaller version of the DF-31.
> 
> U.S. intelligence agencies in mid-November also spotted a Chinese Golf-class missile submarine that is being used as a test bed for the JL-2. The submarine sailed from Zhenjiang to Lushung. The transit was a sign the Chinese are preparing for the first sea-launch test of the JL-2.
> 
> The missile also is expected by Pentagon officials to carry China's newest small warhead that is believed to be copied from the U.S. W-88 warhead deployed on U.S. Trident D-5 submarine-launched ballistic missiles.
> 
> China obtained design information on the W-88 warhead in the 1980s and a Chinese official disclosed the loss to the CIA in 1995. An investigation of the warhead compromise is focused on Wen Ho Lee, a computer scientist who was dismissed from his job at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and who is suspected of passing warhead secrets to China. He has denied the charge.
> 
> According to a congressional report on Chinese technology theft released earlier this year, the new Type 094 submarine will provide the People's Republic of China (PRC) with new strategic nuclear capabilities that will increase the threat to the United States.
> 
> The report by the special panel headed by Rep. Christopher Cox, California Republican, stated that the JL-2's 7,400-mile range allows it "to be launched from the PRC's territorial waters and to strike targets throughout the United States." "This range will allow a significant change in the operation and tactics of the PRC's nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines," the report, based on classified intelligence reports, stated.
> 
> "Instead of venturing into the open ocean to attack the United States, the Type 094-class submarines could remain near PRC waters, protected by the PLA Navy and Air Force."
> 
> The Cox committee report also said the submarines are part of a new Chinese nuclear strategy of developing weapons that are more "survivable" against U.S. nuclear missiles. The submarines provide such survivability because they are hard to detect. China has deployed one Xia-class nuclear missile submarine but defense officials said it rarely leaves ports and appears to be in disrepair.
> 
> The Type 094 will replace that Xia-class submarine and provide much more advanced capabilities than a second Xia submarine still under construction.
> 
> In addition to the new missile submarines, China also is building a new attack submarine known as the Type O93 that will be equipped with underwater-fired cruise missiles.
> 
> Defense officials said U.S. intelligence agencies based their assessment of the new submarine on sensitive intelligence gathered from U.S. spy satellites. The Pentagon is closely watching China's strategic nuclear force buildup, they said.
> 
> The trade publication Jane's Defense Weekly reported in August that China had begun construction of a new nuclear-powered submarine at the Huludao shipyard on the Bohai Gulf northeast of Beijing. The magazine said it is not known if it is the new missile submarine or the first of China's new class of attack submarines.
> 
> The intelligence report last week stated that China already is building the first of its new attack submarines -- Type 093 -- and is in the process of completing construction of the last Xia-class missile submarine. The new Xia submarine is being modified so it can launch the new longer-range JL-2s. Those submarines currently carry shorter-range missiles than the JL-2.
> 
> A senior U.S. intelligence official said in April that stolen U.S. nuclear warhead secrets will be built into new Chinese missiles in a "matter of years." The official said some W-88 warhead data obtained by the Chinese "could only have been obtained from espionage."
> 
> The senior intelligence official said that the stolen U.S. nuclear data means "future Chinese weapons will look more like ours." The official spoke to reporters on the outcome of a classified CIA damage assessment of Chinese nuclear spying.
> 
> However, retired Air Force Gen. Eugene Habiger, the new security chief at the Energy Department, told reporters Wednesday "the jury is still out" on whether China's new strategic weapons will contain stolen U.S. nuclear weapons secrets. The retired general was formerly the U.S. Strategic Command leader and has disagreed in the past with CIA estimates.
> 
> The Chinese submarine missile development highlights the need for deploying a national missile defense, said a congressional defense specialist. "This is evidence that China is moving rapidly toward the deployment of a modern, survivable long-range missile force at a time when it faces no threat whatsoever," the aide said.
> 
> Pentagon and State Department spokesmen in the past have dismissed China's strategic nuclear weapons development as non-threatening and a normal process of military modernization.
> 
> In addition to stolen U.S. technology, the new missile submarine also is expected to contain technology provided by Russia, including advanced nuclear reactors and special propellers that will make the submarines harder to detect underwater.


Washington Times: U.S. secrets aboard latest Chinese sub


----------



## unicorn148

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Muft main mil rahi hai , tu nakre kiya kerna?, Le letein hain
> 
> Keep it coming
> 
> 3 Agosta
> 3 Merlin
> 3 U214
> 6 Chinese Subs
> 
> Yes this would be a minimum - must for a navy ...
> 
> I think time is right to really say YES to every one and no to no one
> 
> Don't keep all apples in one basket as the popular saying goes
> 
> And its not a beauti pagent , Ms Submarine contest - its what it can launch under water



According to you buying 12 subs and that too 3 merlin and 3 u214 subs will cost you approx 4-5 billion$ and 6 more chinese subs .........
who will pay for these


----------



## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> According to you buying 12 subs and that too 3 merlin and 3 u214 subs will cost you approx 4-5 billion$ and 6 more chinese subs .........
> who will pay for these



You just don't worry, we have sufficient resources to buy weapons if it comes to that.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## salman_great16

yes agree with taimikhan


----------



## nightrider_saulat

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Muft main mil rahi hai , tu nakre kiya kerna?, Le letein hain
> 
> Keep it coming
> 
> 3 Agosta
> 3 Merlin
> 3 U214
> 6 Chinese Subs
> 
> Yes this would be a minimum - must for a navy ...
> 
> I think time is right to really say YES to every one and no to no one
> 
> Don't keep all apples in one basket as the popular saying goes
> 
> And its not a beauti pagent , Ms Submarine contest - its what it can launch under water



*navy walon ko iske paise kon daiga
bhaiyaa ji!!!!*


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

nightrider_saulat said:


> *navy walon ko iske paise kon daiga
> bhaiyaa ji!!!!*



Well these subs are to be recieved in 3-5 years , and a yealy payment would make the whole process very easy to absorb into budget.

Chinese Sub could be attained on deferred payment (Peace Initiative)
Frech/German Subs well we will have to pay them on annual basis 

No one pays lump sum -


3 Agosta (All Paid for)
3 Merlin (Redirect some fiances from budget - National Security Cash)
3 U214 (Develop a Annual Payment plan - )
6 Chinese Subs (Can be attaied under loan program with China)


----------



## gogbot

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well these subs are to be recieved in 3-5 years , and a yealy payment would make the whole process very easy to absorb into budget.
> 
> Chinese Sub could be attained on deferred payment (Peace Initiative)
> Frech/German Subs well we will have to pay them on annual basis
> 
> No one pays lump sum -
> 
> 
> 3 Agosta (All Paid for)
> 3 Merlin (Redirect some fiances from budget - National Security Cash)
> 3 U214 (Develop a Annual Payment plan - )
> 6 Chinese Subs (Can be attaied under loan program with China)



I dot even know about the rest.

but did'nt the Germans scrap that U214 deal


----------



## Sanchez

A review of Chinese military fan on China's AIP conventional sub: 039A/039B
Google &#214;vers&#228;tt


----------



## notorious_eagle

gogbot said:


> I dot even know about the rest.
> 
> *but did'nt the Germans scrap that U214 deal*



Nops, the deal is very much on as it was disclosed by a senior member here. 

The U214 is very vital for Pakistan's coastal security, its an absolute must that we should have in our inventory. Besides the Turks operate this platform and along with their help we can always upgrade its weapon system and electronics. I knew that PN has evaluated 041 Frigates and other Chinese subs, but the acquisition of Merlin Class Subs is news to me too.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Super Falcon

no sufficient proof that pakistan is negotiating with china on subs but if i been think tank of pakistan defence i will launch to multi billion dollars projest with china for 5 years 3 nuclear subs with tot in pakistan ship yard and 45 destroyers state of the art anti aircraft and anti sub role and anti ship role


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Is it possible that Pakistan can quire Nuclear powered subs like LA class on lease from US to balance the naval capability with Indian arihant ..!


----------



## pak-yes

> from US


----------



## kashith

Super Falcon said:


> no sufficient proof that pakistan is negotiating with china on subs but if i been think tank of pakistan defence i will launch to multi billion dollars projest with china for 5 years 3 nuclear subs with tot in pakistan ship yard and 45 destroyers state of the art anti aircraft and anti sub role and anti ship role



Pakistan's Nominal GDP is 164 billion dollars.If you are planning to spent such a large amount on navy other fields will be overlooked.In truth Pakistan needs a defensive navy not an offensive one,3 nuclear subs will be an overkill.All you need are 3 conventional subs of type u-214 for defense of Karachi and about 10 destroyers.it is good to have a wish list but lets be practical.Jf-17 were bought on seller's credit.It is a soft loan which pakistan will have to pay back to China in future,so best option would be get cozy with Chinese ,share Karachi port with them,they will themselves bring security for their assets....For the time being please stop concentrating on India and start on rebuilding the country.For starters,you can start a movement,just like lawyers march...to get rid of sectarian violence.Shia and Sunnis should not fight...Man i was really amazed by that march...for me it was just like Gandhiji's dandi march...I really want to see people like those in power in Pak,who care for Pak and not for its neighbors,give peace a chance.... . ..Dont get me wrong I am not flaming but just giving a sane suggestion..What say???


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

kashith said:


> Pakistan's Nominal GDP is 164 billion dollars.If you are planning to spent such a large amount on navy other fields will be overlooked.In truth Pakistan needs a defensive navy not an offensive one,3 nuclear subs will be an overkill.All you need are 3 conventional subs of type u-214 for defense of Karachi and about 10 destroyers.it is good to have a wish list but lets be practical.Jf-17 were bought on seller's credit.It is a soft loan which pakistan will have to pay back to China in future,so best option would be get cozy with Chinese ,share Karachi port with them,they will themselves bring security for their assets....For the time being please stop concentrating on India and start on rebuilding the country.For starters,you can start a movement,just like lawyers march...to get rid of sectarian violence.Shia and Sunnis should not fight...Man i was really amazed by that march...for me it was just like Gandhiji's dandi march...I really want to see people like those in power in Pak,who care for Pak and not for its neighbors,give peace a chance.... . ..Dont get me wrong I am not flaming but just giving a sane suggestion..What say???



Well I think after Mumbai Attack , we took alot of heat specially since it was done by rouge elements , what if something like that happes tomorrow , some idiot decides to take things in their own hands ad swim to India and do something - we can't risk , looking away , and Indian Generals Lambasting things on Pakistan.

Mr Musharif was best chance to solve Kashmir and it did not happen , for now we must focus on our defence - I don't think such an oppourtunity will arise again in next 10-20 years - India kept delaying things , just like they delayed Iran with the Iran gas pipeline project - world does not works on delay tactics - unless there are leaders willing to take initiative things will not change , if Hindus can Kill Gandhi fro trying to reconcile with Pakistan what other change any other leader have on their side ?

Also in global standing the our developing is for overall standing in world we can't be whipping boys of world politics - anymore - today we have pedetors flying in our airspace this will not be tolerated anymore - At some point the Nation's Air defences and survailece of weapons in to country has to be curbed , and tighter control on bomb making material 

An ideally helicopters to help Police track terrorist who might want to hit and run 

As for the Chinese , base in Pakistan , I agee 100&#37; with bases specially in FATA region for Chinese Army to oversea the Iran - China - Pakistan peace gas pipeline - 

It would bring great properity to our collecitive civilizations -

The sectarion violence is instigated by outside forces to destabalize peace.

One we have 80-100 helicopters we can better protect the borders from cross border terrorism - people coming from outside of borders - to conduct operations againt srilankan team or bomb blasts in our cities or providing funds to groups in Balouchistan

Our Forigne police should be 

a) Protect Pakistani Citizens 
b) Protect Pakistai Citizes abroad 
c) No Airspace violations
d) Protect Sea ports with Strong Modern Navy
e) Agressive solutions to our pending Land Issues 
f ) Stronger stance on world politcis

Most peopel in Pakistan don't spend time worrying about India , truth is we have no grudge , but we just ask the countries to resolve the matter of Kashmir peacefully and let them live in peace and give them chance to conduct elections under UN inspection.


----------



## chinapakistan

kashith said:


> Pakistan's Nominal GDP is 164 billion dollars.If you are planning to spent such a large amount on navy other fields will be overlooked.In truth Pakistan needs a defensive navy not an offensive one,3 nuclear subs will be an overkill.All you need are 3 conventional subs of type u-214 for defense of Karachi and about 10 destroyers.it is good to have a wish list but lets be practical.Jf-17 were bought on seller's credit.It is a soft loan which pakistan will have to pay back to China in future,so best option would be get cozy with Chinese ,share Karachi port with them,they will themselves bring security for their assets....For the time being please stop concentrating on India and start on rebuilding the country.For starters,you can start a movement,just like lawyers march...to get rid of sectarian violence.Shia and Sunnis should not fight...Man i was really amazed by that march...for me it was just like Gandhiji's dandi march...I really want to see people like those in power in Pak,who care for Pak and not for its neighbors,give peace a chance.... . ..Dont get me wrong I am not flaming but just giving a sane suggestion..What say???




You can just change "pakistan GDP number to india GDP number", "pakistan to india", "china to Russia" of your article, this is also what we chinese wanna say to indian.
Thank you.


----------



## LCA Tejas

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Is it possible that Pakistan can quire Nuclear powered subs like LA class on lease from US to balance the naval capability with Indian arihant ..!



I guess You can, But its not necessary that, a Nuke sub has to be dealt with another Nuke sub, Pakistan navy has many other options buddy.


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> I guess You can, But its not necessary that, a Nuke sub has to be dealt with another Nuke sub, Pakistan navy has many other options buddy.



What are the possible options to deter a nuke sub like arihant ..?


----------



## LCA Tejas

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> What are the possible options to deter a nuke sub like arihant ..?



Why not buddy? There are many stuffs you can do...To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms ... And research on ABM's or get it from other countries... You can be safe as ever.... Thats the best way to defend... Countering Sub with Sub is an offensive tactic, which pakistan at present cannot afford, iam sorry to say that...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MZUBAIR

Latest updates abt U214.

No alternative to U214 deal......
Gov should take responsibilities to finalize deal.
I think, deal is very imp even if we get them without ToT


----------



## AVIAN

chinapakistan said:


> You can just change "pakistan GDP number to india GDP number", "pakistan to india", "china to Russia" of your article, this is also what we chinese wanna say to indian.
> Thank you.



Is your suggestion or advice has anything to do with thread? Individual to whom you have quoted certainly made a valid point of highlighting purchasing power of Pak who is looking to counter Indian Naval threat through expensive submarines.


----------



## TaimiKhan

AVIAN said:


> Is your suggestion or advice has anything to do with thread? Individual to whom you have quoted certainly made a valid point of highlighting purchasing power of Pak who is looking to counter Indian Naval threat through expensive submarines.



I don't understand one thing that why Indian members are so much after the Purchasing power of Pakistan, when it comes to defense. 

As i said, if it comes to our defense, we have lot of room available to divert funds from other sectors for purchasing weapons. 

When it came to defense, countries changed their whole manufacturing process towards defense. Do read about how US changed their manufacturing capacity towards military equipment in a very short span during WW2. 

So, if it comes to Pakistan's defense, we can divert funds from other areas and buy weapons. We don't need a 1:1 compatibility with India. 

Indian ambitions are for domination and offensive in nature, while we have defensive one. 

So whatever our GDP is, whatever our budget is, we will get funds one way or another and make a proper defensive posture.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen




----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Pakistan should aquire type 214 ..!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## sonicboom

Off topic but for information

*World Top Ten Countries With Most Submarin*es 

_Country_ --------- _Submarines_ 
USA ------------------ 73 
China ----------------- 63 
Russia ---------------- 56 
North Korea ----------- 26 
South Korea ---------- 26 
India ----------------- 16 
Japan ---------------- 16 
United Kingdom-------- 16 
Germany -------------- 14 
Turkey --------------- 13

World Top Ten Countries With Most Submarines


----------



## Tomahawk

AVIAN said:


> Is your suggestion or advice has anything to do with thread? Individual to whom you have quoted certainly made a valid point of highlighting purchasing power of Pak who is looking to counter Indian Naval threat through expensive submarines.



The requirement of PN for next generations of submarines has been there for quite some time. Especially after the retirement of four Daphne Class Submarines, the no. of submarines in PN's arsenal has fallen to 5; which is ofcourse less than the PN's requirement. So one way or the other, PN needs more submarines thats for sure; to maintain a strategic balance in the region.


----------



## Thomas

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak needs to stay away from chinese subs---german or french that is the only option---surface ships we can deal with---but submersibles are in a totally different league.



Chinese subs are probably quite a bit cheaper to buy.


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> Chinese subs are probably quite a bit cheaper to buy.



But they are not up to that mark on which the German or US subs are ...!


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

unicorn148 said:


> According to you buying 12 subs and that too 3 merlin and 3 u214 subs will cost you approx 4-5 billion$ and 6 more chinese subs .........
> who will pay for these




We have enough funds we have no shortage , also we can just ask for loan from China as well as they have solid commerce with us -

3 Agosta 
3 Merlin (State of art)
3 U214
6 Chinese
6 Midget Subs
-----------------------------------------
This is the mimimum need for Pakistan

15 Frigates (we just got 4 frigates , and we are negotiating 4 frigates from China)
(Negotiating 4 corvetes from Turkey)
2 Destroyers
1 Carrier


Country --------- Submarines 
USA ------------------ 73 
China ----------------- 63 
Russia ---------------- 56 
North Korea ----------- 26 
South Korea ---------- 26
Pakistan -------------- 21 (This is how it should look like 2015) 
India ----------------- 16 
Japan ---------------- 16 
United Kingdom-------- 16 
Germany -------------- 14 
Turkey --------------- 13


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

We already make indigenous midget subs.


----------



## applesauce

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> But they are not up to that mark on which the German or US subs are ...!



this i agree with, china is trying, very hard indeed but not yet there


----------



## unicorn148

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We have enough funds we have no shortage , also we can just ask for loan from China as well as they have solid commerce with us -
> 
> 3 Agosta
> 3 Merlin (State of art)
> 3 U214
> 6 Chinese
> 6 Midget Subs
> -----------------------------------------
> This is the mimimum need for Pakistan
> 
> 15 Frigates (we just got 4 frigates , and we are negotiating 4 frigates from China)
> (Negotiating 4 corvetes from Turkey)
> 2 Destroyers
> 1 Carrier
> 
> 
> Country --------- Submarines
> USA ------------------ 73
> China ----------------- 63
> Russia ---------------- 56
> North Korea ----------- 26
> South Korea ---------- 26
> Pakistan -------------- 21 (This is how it should look like 2015)
> India ----------------- 16
> Japan ---------------- 16
> United Kingdom-------- 16
> Germany -------------- 14
> Turkey --------------- 13



21 subs don't dream too much presently Pakistan has 5 subs that means it has to buy16 more subs ie approx 10 -12 billion $ 
and you cant make so many subs in 5 years even if you sign a deal for Type 214 you will get the sub after 64 months i.e first sub 2016
second in2017 and next in 2018 
and never even think that you will get a carrier because a carrier will cost a min of 3-4 billion $(along with aircraft) and that is greater than the navy's budget


----------



## LCA Tejas

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We have enough funds we have no shortage , also we can just ask for loan from China as well as they have solid commerce with us -
> 
> 3 Agosta
> 3 Merlin (State of art)
> 3 U214
> 6 Chinese
> 6 Midget Subs
> -----------------------------------------
> This is the mimimum need for Pakistan
> 
> 15 Frigates (we just got 4 frigates , and we are negotiating 4 frigates from China)
> (Negotiating 4 corvetes from Turkey)
> 2 Destroyers
> 1 Carrier
> 
> 
> *Country --------- Submarines
> USA ------------------ 73
> China ----------------- 63
> Russia ---------------- 56
> North Korea ----------- 26
> South Korea ---------- 26
> Pakistan -------------- 21 (This is how it should look like 2015)
> India ----------------- 16
> Japan ---------------- 16
> United Kingdom-------- 16
> Germany -------------- 14
> Turkey --------------- 13*


*

*

You gonna stop time for every other country and Pakistan goes ahead, come on, India has many more subs to come, Including its 5 ATV project, Scorpene Subs, Akula class subs... many many more buddy, now stop dreaming, contribute something useful


----------



## LCA Tejas

*Indian navy subs In Service
*
1.INS Sindhughosh (S55)	
2.INS Sindhurakshak
3.INS Sindhudhvaj (S56)	
4.INS Sindhuraj (S57)	
5.INS Sindhuvir (S58)	
6.INS Sindhuratna (S59)	
7.INS Sindhukesari (S60)
8.INS Sindhukirti (S61)	
9.INS Sindhuvijay (S62)
10.INS Sindhurakshak (S63)
11.INS Sindhushastra (S65)	
12.INS Shishumar (S44) 
13.INS Shankush (S45)	
14.INS Shalki (S46)	
15.INS Shankul (S47)	
16.Foxtrot (Kalvari Class)	
17.INS Vela (S40)
18.INS Vagli (S42)

*Future Subs
*
INS Chakra
INS Arihant
ATV2
ATV3
ATV4
ATV5
6 Scorpene class subs under construction in Mazagon Dock
SSN project by India after The Arihant project.


----------



## Sanchez

Even if Pakistan is interested in China's conventional subs China may not be able to satisfy the request with subs other than 039 Song. PLA is pushing tech development using Yuan as a platform. So far five are produced but none of them is the same as the other.

One of the options might be custom design of one or two SSGNs for PN to lease.


----------



## Super Falcon

well 80 percent of indian sub name starts from S alphabet anyway i think pakistan i need atleast 4 destroyers 3 corvetes 2 frigates and 4 more subs along side with U 214 4 too and perry class frigates 5 which we will get in 2010 but it will not happen beocz of finance probleum but pn can cut down the numbers 2 destroyers and 2 more frigates from europe and 3 suba more alongside U 214


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Super Falcon said:


> well 80 percent of indian sub name starts from S alphabet anyway i think pakistan i need atleast 4 destroyers 3 corvetes 2 frigates and 4 more subs along side with U 214 4 too and perry class frigates 5 which we will get in 2010 but it will not happen beocz of finance probleum but pn can cut down the numbers 2 destroyers and 2 more frigates from europe and 3 suba more alongside U 214



"S" can all boys and girls say Supersticious


----------



## Super Falcon

not really supersticious si think i think their indian naval command likes S alphabet soo much or their pandit's said them keep the nake with S starting alphabet


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

50% indian arms are obsolete
ASIAN DEFENCE: 50% of Indian Arms are Obsolete
And most of ur subs will be retired and will only have scorpene or the onese u are signing contracts with russia.
Rest will be history.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Super Falcon

but india can cover this retirement i few years im sure


----------



## unicorn148

8 of the 10 kilo class subs had MLU and they can serve 10-15 years more


----------



## zulfiqar74

Pakistan should stop buying stuff from the US and start buying more from few european countries and turkey. china and turkey should be our main supplier and we should be self relient as well, atleast it a good start to get the u boats from germans even if it goes in to plan till 2015

What will be good to see in the PN start building its own ships and subs. whats the point in getting the tot and you cant make it on your own.

TIME TO HAVE A NEW GOVT


----------



## Kompromat

^^ That is a Big Wishlist fellow & First of all we don't have a Massive budget to meet all of it and secondly unfortunately Euros and Yankees are not trust worthy suppliers.

We need to move our way forward to Naval self reliance with the Help of Turkey and China & this is the Right way to go.

Regards:


----------



## Aamir Hussain

zulfiqar74 said:


> Pakistan should stop buying stuff from the US and start making friends with the europe well at atleast it a good start to get the u boats from the germans,
> 
> What will be good to see in the PN in next few years, these additions are on top of what we have just received or will be getting in few years
> 
> Submarines
> 
> Already getting 4, U214 subs from the germans has 3 agusta 90 sub.
> Addition of these below
> 6 U214 German
> 2 Trafalgar class submarine (Britsh)
> 
> Destroyers
> 6 .Type 45 Destroyer (British)
> 
> Frigates
> Already have 5 zulfiqar class plus 1 oliver hazard perry class frigates Addition of these to current vessels.
> 6 F22P
> 4 Brandenburg class frigate (German)
> 
> Corvettes
> 12 Milgem class corvette.
> 
> Missile Boats
> 10 Hamina class missile boat
> 5 Roussen Class FACM
> 10 Houbei class missile boat
> 
> 20 helicopter of different varients
> 
> Plus about 4 squadron of 20 fighters in each group



Another AZADPAKISTANI in making -- just kidding

Where are we going to get the money from? BTW when was the German deal completed???

If just making "Friends" was that easy than we should have got the JF-17 French avionics in the bag.

The biggest problem with most of the forum members is that most of them believe that countries behave as human would in their one on one relationships. 

The actual behavior/alliances of countries are based upon convergent objectives and not "Love" for any one or "Historic" links! With most of the European countries, more so than the Americans, it is about Euros along with convergent issues. 

Think for a minute. We are sick and tired of the US -- can you imagine the fatigue factor of our generals with going American? The problem is that other countries with possible hardware that we might want are not playing ball for one reason or another or they are asking for money and terms that we just don't have or the clout to buy on their terms!

Each one of us would have a wish list -- I have one too -- but the reality is to spend with care with what little we have and milk the American as best as we can, with technologies that can be supported through off the shelf spares from Turkey/Israel, yes Israel (we were getting spares for F-16 from them in a roundabout manner during the days of the embargoes)!!!

Prudence is the name of the game my friend  our egos are writing checks that cannot be cashed!!


----------



## zulfiqar74

Aamir Hussain said:


> Another AZADPAKISTANI in making -- just kidding
> 
> hahhahah nice one Well let me be azad pakistani at least quote "I have a dream" Martin luther king.
> 
> hoping the govt changes, and the money/ aid that goes in our uneducated, dum politicans pockets if that goes into right places and civil developments i.e civil stability, financial stability and liberty. We can go towards that scenario and achieve success and not be bounded. this has been proven in musharraf era.
> 
> We got the technology of Agusta 90
> We will be getting the U214 technology.
> We have JF17 technology.
> We have F22P technology.
> We will be getting the Milgem class corvtte technology.
> 
> All we require is trained and or training and education of scientists and engineers in defence technology to use these tools and create. something of our own. We got 2 ship yard increase it make it 3. We should do a deal for transfering commercial aircraft building technology from UK Germany. How hard it is to work with an overseas independent aircraft company in designs and technlogy and creating another JF17 type aircraft.
> If you are saying pakistan is poor yes it is poor as most of the money is being looted. Pakistan Steel, major company in pakistan is down the drain why because people are looting that place day by day, its empty there is no money. We have resources in Pakistan like steel, coal, but whats the use. We are poor as we do not possess right leadership, three leader that actually tried to do something good for Pakistan Quaid Azam, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Musharraf. Lots of people think musharraf was bad but there is long list of things that he did for Pakistan economy and its defence is all ignored. before he came pakistan was in shits he stablized the country increased the economy to the point where pakistan had 1billion reserves and 5 billion in shares website below
> 
> Musharraf Era Economic Pakistan
> 
> Where is Pakistan now....... you tell me
> 
> Pakistan is full of creative and intellegent people. If the right educated people are actually appointed on right position things will be very different.
> Our ministers think that it is their right to do cooruption check utube under "pakistan minister and cooruption" These guys give a very poor, disgusting i mean down the drain representaion of Pakistan to the whole world. I mean they cant even spell their own name in english left alone becoming a federal minister .
> 
> Give you an example we have G3 which is made in POF which is an obsolete weapon. still used in PA, now they are thinking of changing their main rifle. and that is not a minister call its the army call to change. Now if there was a well versed person running the show then we would have upgraded 5 years back to a new modern rifle. Same goes with all the federal govt department. from trade to agriculture, electricty etc etc
> The minority or the actual educated bureaucratic class are unable to do much as things bypass their level.
> 
> Pakistan should start a program where they should give scholarships to selected masters or PHD students to go to West or europe for special studies in defence technology nuclear and other civil studies science, economics with top students to get get direct job in Pakistan civil servent positions with decent pay. This positive trend will give Pakistan a new face and shape give Pakistan a good vision and great developing future levelling with the west and have a better economic position comparing to our counterpart India, but instead what happens in the actual scenerio currently is that seats are sold for 15 to 20 lack rupees.
> 
> The reason pakistan is poor is not the problem, the problem is that there is no one to educate the people/ masses and cooruption.
> 
> I use to argue with people that its not Pakistan fault its the west that give us the bad name, influences and induices the country with cooruption. After million of hours of argument i realized that its not them its us its Pakistani's, we let them do it to us, we let them demoralize us and break us......
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad


----------



## holysaturn

unicorn148 said:


> 8 of the 10 kilo class subs had MLU and they can serve 10-15 years more



yes bro they are armed with new USHUS sonars(which are also used for arihant) and the deadly club with 300km range compared to the 60km exocet of agosta..........the HDWs are also undergoing refits..........all these ageing reports dont take ito account of the refits or new inductions such as akula and 3 arihant class subs which gives IN deadly capability.


----------



## Frankenstein

good decision


----------



## zulfiqar74

Aamir Hussain said:


> Another AZADPAKISTANI in making -- just kidding
> 
> 
> I have read on these threads that the deal is finalized for the U boats i dont have any hard evidance.
> 
> You mentioned prudence in one of your sentence, i would say that if we really had prudence then we would not be in the current state socially economically that we are now.
> 
> I mentioned that making friends with europe, now here is a something to see. Pakistan should look towards the Russians for warm friendship through china help, We need the russians on our side as compared to the US that will also awake india as they are loosing their grip with the russians. In europe we have the turkey who is already doing defence trade, Germany is also doing defence trade providing the technology, French ukraine, chech Republic, norway, japan, south korea, Canada, Uk recently had a press confrence stating that Pakistan and Uk should do more military trade. Pakistan should open trade with these countries in arms and civil technology. Give you few examples Saab js gripian has been offered by sweden. Then French mirage 4000 a cancelled project, 99% complete. it was cancelled as it was designed for the Saudia airforce but they broke the deal and went for f15 or something. Pakistan could look into reviving the mirage 4000 jet with french collaboration invest a bit of cash send engineers there change the design a bit upgraded avonics etc etc and we have another 4/5 generation AU jet made in pakistan,iam sure french would not hesitate as they are getting something out of it and most of the expertise gained in the mirage 4000 project is added in rafale. These are few examples how we can work towards producing better equipment and doing trade with countries that will do more military trade with no strings attached.
> 
> Pakistan should buy US military hardware but should mainly excelerate in civil trade as being a love hate relationship. with US PA should only aquire military hardware which will not be a long term upgrade issue example the 65million Perry-class guided missile frigate or 155mm howtzers or missiles survelliance equipments or buy the technology as part of the deal. Give you example Pakistan is flying F16 since the 80is US could have given us the F16 block 52 technology but they never offered the technology to us but hindered in the sales of pending jets with sanctions now they are offering India with missiles and f16 technology without any dramas or strings attached still we aquired 8 more f16 from them. We should stop here.
> 
> Now where will we get the finance for all this.
> 
> well if i go into detail i could write a book. But strong marketing advertising and PR, quality control. Look at F16 its famous everyone wants it, US dwells on it because of marketing and advertising plus it has seen few wars big deal, they did not use mirage or any other plane other wise they would have had the same position as f 16. US before they sold f16 to us they offered A10, now its backbone of US army, marines aviation wing. There are about 10 countries interested to buy JF17 from pakistan and that will buy and are countries currently buying our military hardware. If we fix our country financial economic problems then this will be fixed by it self.
> 
> Another thing is that if there is no cooruption, pakistan will flourish and get back on the high horse faster then musharraf time. as you know to open any business we have to pay cash in a shoe box just to get a company name, there is bribe on every step so thats why business does not boom there is no job as no one wants to invest...... etc etc etc self aquired foreign pressure, more bribes etc etc thats why pak is down the slums.
> 
> I just read that French has held the sale of electronices and missiles to pakistan for JF 17. Well its another foreign pressure on the french that we are seeing here hope it works out well. other wise Pakistan could go to UK or saab or russians for those equipment.
> 
> We seriously need a new batch of highly patriot administrators for Pakistan who can actually stand their ground and not get influenced by other countries foreign policies nor take bribes......


----------



## zulfiqar74

iam selling some nuclear subs anddestroyers and AC on ebay. check it out


----------



## heavystorm

Personally I think F22P isn't the most advanced frigate in the warships which China can build. The 054A is the best frigate of China. 054A looks like Zeus Shield destroyer of US or Europe. *I hope Pakistan can buy 054A instead of F22P.*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## zulfiqar74

heavystorm said:


> Personally I think F22P isn't the most advanced frigate in the warships which China can build. The 054A is the best frigate of China. 054A looks like Zeus Shield destroyer of US or Europe. *I hope Pakistan can buy 054A instead of F22P.*






if it is not advanced maybe they can use initiative creativity and make it worth while. they have the tot, they have engineers, they can add hardware to make it a better frigate, if they cant then i dont think deserve it. Better of to give it to iran. too much spoon feeding i guess..,.


----------



## Paksindhi

EmO GiRl said:


> I hope its just 'checking', we can cooperate with Chinese for subs but I WANT U-214
> No French Subs at all & no Chinese Subs *for now*, we must get U-214



COULD'NT AGREE MORE EmO


----------



## zulfiqar74

We should at least make 2 or 3 more agosta 90. the U boats will be delivered by 2016. The chinese yuan class is good stop gap sub for pakistan and would help in phasing out the old agosta 70. PN should get 2 yuan class and atleast lease 1 nuclear sub if possible.

PAKISTAN NAVY By Dec 2014

8 OHP class
4 F22P
3 Type 54 or meko frigates or destroyer type 52B, horizon class, Fridtjof Nansen class. Would love to see 5000 ton+ frigates they are classified as destroyers. 
1 Melgiam corvette
7 Mine hunters (Current 4)
20 missile boats. Visby class, G&#246;teborg class, Hamina class, Houbei class,
Gepard class.(current 12)
10 MRTB mix of MRTB 33 and YTKB-400 or YTKB 44, (current 4) 
12 Submarine mix of agosta 70/ 90b, Yuan class, (current 5, required 12). U214 to be inducted after 2015.
12 Auxiliary ships (current 8)
3 Training vassals (current 1)
6 Hovercraft (current4)
25 patrol boat (current 17) mix of boats like armadale class, kingston class, Astral Partol boats APB 48 and/or APB47,Illiria class, combat boat 90.

PN AVIATION

(This is including what we already have) 

60 Mirages/ or JH7 even J10 (current 12+)
10 Eurocopter NH-90NFH, phasing out Sea Kings transport, search/rescue (current 6.
8 Eurocopter EC-130B4 naval helicopter phasing out 8 Alouette III .
15 Lockheed P-3C Orion (Current 4) 11 to be inducted
3 Breguet Atlantique I Maritime Surveillance, transfer to coastguards while inducting more P-3C Orion.
6 Harbin Z-9 (current 6) phasing out lynx
8 helicopters (kitted with the ships inducted in PN Mix of Harbin Z-9 and or NH90 or sea hawks.


PN AVIATION BASE

Pakistan Navy also need it own base to run its own and coast guard operations. Either Masroor base be extended and a naval aviation wing be founded or a new base should be developed somewhere pass hub or any area pass steel mill which ever is more strategically better for our defence. Or Base Faisal can be transfered to the navy.

I would love to see 50 to 60 J11 or f 18 in the PN inventory for its long range and strike capability. I would not be possible plus no to F18 as no more US equipments. Mirages and JF17 should be great, however we could look at chinese JH7 for navy as well.. 

SSGN 

Their number should be increased from 1000 to 2000+. They should have at least 10 + transport helicopters, plus boats and heavy vehicles in their inventory.

PAK MARINES

Currently they are 2000 strong in the PK marines. They need to be increased to maintain at least 20000 men in next 5 years. They should par the same level as the french foreign legion or UK marines. PK marines should be given special training on the same training methods as the SSGN emphasising on boarding of vessels during combat, capturing ships, raiding ashore in support of the naval objectives. campaign ashore in support of the military objective, amphibious day and night assault. counter-improvision explosive device techniques, convoy operations, combat formations, fireteam assaults, patrolling, MOUT, reporting military intelligence, land navigation, survival skills. 

They need to be provided with better equipments rather then the old G3, something like type 81, type 101 or AUG, with granade launcher and dot scopes, night vision, snipers rifles, FN Minimi. With other complimenting equipments like helicopters, artilary, armour vehicles and amphibious assault boats. Ofcourse it sounds all to much and very expensive, but technically it is possible with little bit of allocated fund, recruitment and help from the army. The army can transfer equipments and men innitially. Most of the main schools and training installations have already been stablished and running, all they just need is advancement in their training methods and upgrades.

I hope the pak armforces invest on research and future developments in every dept and sub dept. Also investigate in developing in other conventional and nonconventinal weapons. Invest on more platforms like ship yards, aeronotical complex and defence industries to upgrade them with modern and latest technology. Employ weapons designers, scientists or coproduce new equipment with foreign companies. Tot that we might get like U214, plus more we already have F22p, JF17, Agosta 90, we should do further experiments and research to make them more effective or bigger or better and should be self sufficient in production while fulfilling our requirements are exporting rather then relying on other countries..


----------



## zulfiqar74

LCA Tejas said:


> [/B]
> 
> You gonna stop time for every other country and Pakistan goes ahead, come on, India has many more subs to come, Including its 5 ATV project, Scorpene Subs, Akula class subs... many many more buddy, now stop dreaming, contribute something useful





just for you mate pakistan will be getting all this by december 2010 and guess what, put it all on my tab no problems. let me know if i missed out anything..

1 Aircraft Carrier with 25 JF17 block2 and group of 8 ships and sub.
20 destroyers. UK type 45 and chinese type 52 both
25 frigates OHP class, type 54, F22P
15 corvettes Malgiam class
18 submarines. 3 U214, 10 agosta 90, 2 chinese nuclear sub 
3 yuan class sub. 
40 missile boats. 
30 petrol boats armadale class
10 mine sweeper
150 J10 and J11 based in masroor.
15 ,orion p-C3 recon aircraft
25 lynx anti ship/ antio sub helicopter
20 sea kings transport helicopters


----------



## zulfiqar74

adeos amigo said:


> Emotional poster, with no idea of what he is talking about. What do you know about chinese hard ware??? and would like to explain the inefficient and inefective chinese weaponry??
> 
> 
> 
> no need for that,Your opening statement explains your gratitude.
> 
> 
> who said that nuclear subs require less maintenance?? the second part of this statement is even more rediculous, where does our nuclear know how exactly stand???wouldnt it be more appropriate to use that emence know how to over come enenrgy crisis??
> 
> 
> again shooting out of the mist, which european country is willing to help you ???? and y would the lease you their nuclear subs??
> 
> 
> i can only feal sorry for your wet dreams. firstly we dont need an aircraft carrier,secondly nither we have the money for buying nor maintaining a battle group, thridly we dont have the infrastucture to induct an AC, and lastly why would america sell u an AC?? when they were even reluctant to give you the F-16s latest blocks, wat was the need for making JF-17s if we were so chumies?? wake up>reality check
> 
> 
> thats possible but your speculations dont guarantee any thing, infact your whole post is a joke, showing your naive thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adios.



respect.....


----------



## elinge

Notice from Jane's....

*Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China
*
China's vice-president, Zheng Dejiang, met with civil and military leaders in Pakistan on 9-10 June in a visit surrounded by reports of a major new defence deal under discussion that would see Pakistan buying at least three Chinese submarines.

Speaking to Jane's on 9 June, a senior Pakistani government official said the Pakistan Navy began discussions with "the Chinese authorities last month for an eventual submarine deal" for up to three or four boats, but declined to specify the types or terms under discussion.

China has a long history of helping Pakistan overcome shortages of key military hardware, notably the hardware it was denied by the Western world following sanctions imposed from 1990 in response to Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme.

The Pakistani government official who spoke to Jane's on 9 June said that it was vital for the navy to acquire more submarines to offset "the pressure we will definitely come under" due to the rapid expansion of India's naval capability. "Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance once again," he said.

Although neither China nor Pakistan have ever publicly revealed the terms of their past financial arrangements, defence analysts say that China continues to offer long-term loans to Pakistan on concessional terms, allowing the country to continue with its military hardware purchases.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

elinge welcome to PDF enjoy ur stay and kindly introduce urself in introduction section so we can all warmly welcome u.
Pakistani Nationalist


----------



## ironman



Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Super Falcon

well so they dont want subs from germany well im shocked


----------



## Penguin

Super Falcon said:


> well so they dont want subs from germany well im shocked



The article refers to 'financial constraint' having 'delayed' final agreement on the 214s. Question is whether that delay is indefinite. Meanwhile, there is a need for new and more boats.


----------



## cabatli_53

notorious_eagle said:


> Nops, the deal is very much on as it was disclosed by a senior member here.
> 
> The U214 is very vital for Pakistan's coastal security, its an absolute must that we should have in our inventory. Besides the Turks operate this platform and along with their help we can always upgrade its weapon system and electronics. I knew that PN has evaluated 041 Frigates and other Chinese subs, but the acquisition of Merlin Class Subs is news to me too.



Bro, You know Turkish institue Havelsan will be the owner of U-214 Command-control and source-codes. When Turkey finished developing Torpedos and Anti-shipping missiles, We will integrate them in it as well and Almost %82 of Subsystems will be developed by Turkish institues including silent consol, Link 22, Torpedo shell sections by the help of Germany in Turkey and have rights to export them to 3th countries. As you mentioned above, Turkey and Pakistan can manage-modify those submarines however We want...


----------



## Jigs

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, You know Turkish institue Havelsan will be the owner of U-214 Command-control and source-codes. When Turkey finished developing Torpedos and Anti-shipping missiles, We will integrate them in it as well and Almost %82 of Subsystems will be developed by Turkish institues including silent consol, Link 22, Torpedo shell sections by the help of Germany in Turkey and have rights to export them to 3th countries. As you mentioned above, Turkey and Pakistan can manage-modify those submarines however We want...




We won't be able to make the classified stuff Germany will be shipping those parts to us after they are built in Germany.


----------



## cabatli_53

Jigs said:


> We won't be able to make the classified stuff Germany will be shipping those parts to us after they are built in Germany.



Which classified stuffs Germany will be shipping to Turkey you have mentioned Bro ?


----------



## Jigs

cabatli_53 said:


> Which classified stuffs Germany will be shipping to Turkey you have mentioned Bro ?



"HDW will preassemble structural and mechanical parts of the submarine in Germany, or classified elements such as the fuel cells and propulsion system and will then ship them to Turkey. All electronic and weapon systems (including the C4I system) will be of Turkish design and production."

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Jigs




----------



## Super Falcon

well pak navy is making things very hard to for themselves if they continue to keep in this attitude we willl never get to see new subs in our inventory one years have past since our old sub hangoor class retired till now nothing we have to replace them only 3 submarines in pak navy welll there is big ? on pakistan future naval programme


----------



## Penguin

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, You know Turkish institue Havelsan will be the owner of U-214 Command-control and source-codes. When Turkey finished developing Torpedos and Anti-shipping missiles, We will integrate them in it as well and Almost &#37;82 of Subsystems will be developed by Turkish institues including silent consol, Link 22, Torpedo shell sections by the help of Germany in Turkey and have rights to export them to 3th countries. As you mentioned above, Turkey and Pakistan can manage-modify those submarines however We want...



If you go against any agreement with the Germans on this, licence will be revoked plus you won't get licence production of other items in future. So don't underestimate the degree to which Turkey will have to considered German arms export policies in its own. If not formally then at least actually.


----------



## Jigs

Once we get these subs we will have 20 total unless we decide to retire some of our 209s.


----------



## mughaljee

why we do not take U-214 with T.O.T , 
German's have also well reputed name in sub building.


----------



## Arsalan

cabatli_53 said:


> Bro, You know Turkish institue Havelsan will be the owner of U-214 Command-control and source-codes. When Turkey finished developing Torpedos and Anti-shipping missiles, We will integrate them in it as well and Almost %82 of Subsystems will be developed by Turkish institues including silent consol, Link 22, Torpedo shell sections by the help of Germany in Turkey and have rights to export them to 3th countries. As you mentioned above, Turkey and Pakistan can manage-modify those submarines however We want...



being optimistic, this may be one reason for current intrest in chines subs.
may be top brass feel that for time being they can do good with present Augusta 90B fleet accompanied byy some chines subs. later on when Turkey is done and going with there U214 may be Paksitan can join in and by that time they will have experience with various platform and can use Turkish experties to modify the ship as per requirment.
Chian may also join in that deal.
ideall speaking this will be great.
Turkish know the U214z,
China and Pakistan come up with there experiences with Chines subs abd augustas and all these nations join hand to creat sub as per requirment.

bro, this is only a comment, you may disagree withthis as i have no evidence to proof this...

regards!


----------



## Penguin

Jigs said:


> Once we get these subs we will have 20 total unless we decide to retire some of our 209s.



6 New CLASS (214 Type 1200):
On 2nd July 2009, a contract was signed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW), Kiel, a company of ThyssenKrupp Technologies, and MarineForce International LLP (MFI), London, for the delivery of six material packages for the construction of Class 214 submarines to Turkey. The signing of the contract was the end of a long series of bureaucratic procedures that started in 2006. The first of the submarines would be delivered in 2015.

In service today:
6x ATILAY CLASS (209 Type 1200), commissioned between 12 Mar 1976 and 29 July 1989. 
4x PREVEZE CLASS (209 Type 1400), commissioned between 28 July 1994 and 22 July 1999. 
4x GÜR CLASS (209 Type 1400 Mod), commissioned between 24 July 2003 and 22 July 2007.

The Atilay boats are between 21 and 34 years old today. By 2015, when the first U214 is expected to become available, they will be between by 26 and 39 years old 2015. That fact plus the number of 214s approved strongly suggests that the new boats will replace the oldest 209s rather than complement the current fleet and expand it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## cabatli_53

Penguin said:


> If you go against any agreement with the Germans on this, licence will be revoked plus you won't get licence production of other items in future. So don't underestimate the degree to which Turkey will have to considered German arms export policies in its own. If not formally then at least actually.




I am not talking about the Germany systems licence produced by Turkey to integrate on submarines. Anyhow, The engine and Fuel cells will be produced by Germany to transfer Turkey to integrate on U-214TN's. The many other systems Turkish industry will integrate on submarines will be pure Turkish and estimate rate of those systems on submarines will be around &#37;82 so Any nation in World can not put their nose into those systems When We wanted to export them to other countries...



Anyhow, Turkish institues ( It must be an institue of Koc group) are working on fuel cells now a days..


----------



## cabatli_53

Here is the list Turkish industry will develop and integrate on U-214 TN's. Germany has nothing to say, when Turkey wanted to export those systems for other countries...


*Aselsan*

-The devices and electronical equipments
-Radars
-Radar electronic system group called Ares-2NS
-Submarine information delivery system will be developed by Aselsan
-X band satellites communication systems and all another communication units will be developed by Aselsan...

------------------------------------------------------------

*Netas*

-Warfare keying systems will be developed by Netas

-----------------------------------------------------------


*Havelsan*

-Simulators, Educations, Tests, Assessments of performance, Management information of command-control systems of U-214TN's will belong to Havelsan until all active lifes of submarines...
-Land based test center-institue construction to test new variants of command-comtrol system to integrate future Turkish weapons will be applied by Havelsan
-Algoritma developments, threat banks and all another things about software are belong to Havelsan...
-New sensor-systems integration missions, underwater tactic simulator development will belong to Havelsan

------------------------------------------------------------
*STM*

-Design of U-214 TN
-Engineering and system integrations
-18000 different system integration
-Composite materials production
-Submarine blocks production
-Shipyard and battery institues and developments
-Logistic support

-------------------------------------------------------------

*Tubitak Mam*

-Underwater telephones
-Battery watch systems and centeral air consantration watch systems

----------------------------------------------------------------

*Ayesas and Atlas electronic*

-Multi function consols design, development, electronic cards, cabinets, electromagnetic assembly, weapon consols, weapon control units development and tests...
-The silent consols for submarines...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
*Milsoft*

-6 item multi link system
-1 item multi link land based test institue-integration
-Link-11 and Link-22 data transportations


------------------------------------------------------------------

*Koc Bilgi*

-Indigenous diver detection system
-Torpedo jamming and defence systems
-Fat/Hat/Sat phases
-Indigenous detection, classification and Localisation systems
-Static and Movement effectors

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Jigs

Penguin said:


> 6 New CLASS (214 Type 1200):
> On 2nd July 2009, a contract was signed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW), Kiel, a company of ThyssenKrupp Technologies, and MarineForce International LLP (MFI), London, for the delivery of six material packages for the construction of Class 214 submarines to Turkey. The signing of the contract was the end of a long series of bureaucratic procedures that started in 2006. The first of the submarines would be delivered in 2015.
> 
> In service today:
> 6x ATILAY CLASS (209 Type 1200), commissioned between 12 Mar 1976 and 29 July 1989.
> 4x PREVEZE CLASS (209 Type 1400), commissioned between 28 July 1994 and 22 July 1999.
> 4x GÜR CLASS (209 Type 1400 Mod), commissioned between 24 July 2003 and 22 July 2007.
> 
> The Atilay boats are between 21 and 34 years old today. By 2015, when the first U214 is expected to become available, they will be between by 26 and 39 years old 2015. That fact plus the number of 214s approved strongly suggests that the new boats will replace the oldest 209s rather than complement the current fleet and expand it.



You are probably correct the Atilay class subs are getting very old. Not that we would need 20 subs anyway once the U214s are in it would keep us ahead of all in the region. Since Greek's sub deal failed and Israel operates a small number of Dolphin class subs. Still it would have been nice to have such a large number


----------



## Penguin

cabatli_53 said:


> I am not talking about the Germany systems licence produced by Turkey to integrate on submarines. Anyhow, The engine and Fuel cells will be produced by Germany to transfer Turkey to integrate on U-214TN's. The many other systems Turkish industry will integrate on submarines will be pure Turkish and estimate rate of those systems on submarines will be around %82 so Any nation in World can not put their nose into those systems When We wanted to export them to other countries...
> 
> Anyhow, Turkish institues ( It must be an institue of Koc group) are working on fuel cells now a days..



Sure other nations can, if only due to the international treaties to which Turkey also is - or would like to become - a partner. Besides, increasingly, the defence industry is dominated by conglomerates and the chances of foreign components being used even in fully domestic systems is quite high. Export controls focus on techologies rather than systems these days.


----------



## cabatli_53

Penguin said:


> Sure other nations can, if only due to the international treaties to which Turkey also is - or would like to become - a partner. Besides, increasingly, the defence industry is dominated by conglomerates and the chances of foreign components being used even in fully domestic systems is quite high. Export controls focus on techologies rather than systems these days.





Sure other nations can not !!! Which International treaty hold Turkey to export one of those systems I have typed above, to Pakistan, When Turkey agreed on selling some of them ? Many of those systems have already been developed and Now, They will be modified in accordance with underwater missions to integrate on U-214's. 

I am not talking about transfering U-214 design and structure or some strategic components developed by Germany, to other countries. Those are Turkish systems and Neither Germany nor others have nothing to say about the systems developed by Turkish engineers.

If you had said that Turkey can not export some strategic systems to other countries politically, You may have sure but It has nothing to do with international treaty. Those are not the systems prohibited exporting others under the name of MTCR...


----------



## cabatli_53

and About quantity of foreign systems in Turkish programs, 

If Fsybility reports dictate some technological defficiencies (If it is a key strategic technology to start a program, SSM cancel program and never start it under the name of domestic development project model) to start a program, SSM (Undersecretariat of defence industry) charge main-contactor Turkish institue to find a technological assistance foreign institue to benefit its technological abilities to develop our own and you should know that If foreign institue issue some restrictions to use own technology for Turkish programs, Making an agreement with it is prohibited by SSM because Just as Turkish defence industry is improving skills to meet the requirements of Turkish Armed forces, The exporting those systems for ally countries are also one of main purpose of SSM...


----------



## mjnaushad

mughaljee said:


> why we do not take U-214 with T.O.T ,
> German's have also well reputed name in sub building.


Why dont you write a cheque to German athorties as GOP is little low on bank balance......

PRICE is a big factor for us as we are terribly war struck country.


----------



## Super Falcon

The Type 039 (NATO reporting name: Song class) is the diesel-electric submarine designed by Wuhan Ship Development and Design Institute (701 Institute) for the PLA Navy (PLAN). Construction of the submarine was carried out by Wuhan Shipbuilding Industry Company (also known as Wuchang Shipyard or 438 Factory) in Wuhan, Hubei Province and Jiangnan Shipyard Group Corporation in Shanghai. At least 16 hulls have been delivered to the PLA Navy since 1994.

The first-of-class of the Type 039 submarine No.320 was launched on 25 May 1994 at Wuchang Shipyard, and started sea trials in August 1995. However, the submarine was not fully operational until 1999 due to serious design flaws, including unsatisfactory underwater performance and noise level. After some major redesign work, a modified Type 039G variant (No.321) entered the service in April 2001, followed by the second (No.322) in December 2001 and the third (No.323) in November 2003.

In 2004, Wuchang Shipyard began to construct a further improved variant known as Type 039G1. At the same time, Shanghai-based Jiangnan Shipyard also began to built the Type 039G1 submarine, indicating that the submarine design has been finalised and serial production begun. Since then, a total of 12 boats (No.324~No.326, No.313~No.318, No.327~No.329) have been built. 

Design


Type 039G1 (Chinese Internet) 


The Type 039 was designed for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface warfare (ASuW) using torpedoes and submarine-launched anti-ship missiles. The submarine is also capable of reconnaissance, water mine laying and patrol roles. The submarine itself is a blend of Chinese and Western technologies, and represents a major step forward in China&#8217;s conventional submarine design.

Compared with the previous Chinese-built submarines, the Type 039 has a more hydro-dynamically sleek profile. To reduce the submarine&#8217;s acoustic signature, the main engine is fitted with a shock absorbance, and the hull is covered by rubber anti-sonar protection tiles similar to those used on the Russian Kilo class. The submarine has a pair of fin-mounted hydroplanes, four rudders, and a single large skewed propeller.

The first and only basic variant Type 039 submarine has a stepped conning fin, with the bridge a step lower than the part of the fin that contains masts. This design was reported to have affected the submarine&#8217;s underwater performance and noise level, and was replaced by a different shape with no cutaway on the subsequent Type 039s.

Armaments


Type 039G (Chinese Internet) 


The Type 039 is equipped with six bow 533mm torpedo tubes, which can be used to fire torpedoes and submarine-launched anti-ship missile (AShM). The Type 039 is equipped with the Yu-3 electric-propelled, acoustic-homing anti-submarine torpedo and Yu-4 (Russian SAET-50/60 copy) electric-propelled, passive acoustic-homing anti-ship torpedo (speed: 30kt; range 6km). The new-generation Yu-6 wire-homing anti-submarine torpedo and an unknown model of wake-homing anti-ship torpedo may have also been equipped by the Type 039.

The submarine can also carry 4~6 YJ-82 AShM, which are carried inside cylinder-shape containers and launched from the torpedo tubes. The missile approaches the target area in sea-skimming mode using inertial navigation and then active radar homing. The missile travels at speeds over Mach 0.9, and has a range of 40~80km. The YJ-82 has a 165kg HE shaped-charge warhead with time delayed impact proximity fuses.

The submarine carries 18 torpedoes/AShM containers, with 6 in the launch tubes and 12 on the weapon racks. Alternatively the submarine can carry 24~36 sea mines.

Sensor Suite


The inside view of the Type 039G1's combat information centre (Chinese Internet) 


The Type 039 deploys an indigenously developed underwater sensor suite consisting an active/passive bow-mounted array, an H/SQG-04 passive interception and ranging array, and two passive flank arrays.

The new digital bow-mounted, medium-frequency sonar designed for passive and active search and attack was said to be based on a French Thomson-CSF design, and capable of tracking 4~12 targets simultaneously. Additional functions of the sonar array include underwater communication and torpedo approach warning.

The flank-mounted low-frequency passive array was believed to be also based on French Thomson-CSF technology. It can track up to 4 targets simultaneously to a maximum range of 30km.

There is an I-band radar for surface search purpose. The SRW209 electronic warfare suite consists of electronic support measures (ESM), radar warning receiver and radio direction-finder.

In addition, the submarine is fitted with an indigenous combat data system capable of multiple targets tracking, threat evaluation, surveillance, and navigation.

Propulsions

The Type 039 is powered by three German MTU 16V396SE84 diesels. The large asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller of the submarine helps to further reduce the noise level.

---------- Post added at 02:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 AM ----------

The Type 039 (NATO reporting name: Song class) is the diesel-electric submarine designed by Wuhan Ship Development and Design Institute (701 Institute) for the PLA Navy (PLAN). Construction of the submarine was carried out by Wuhan Shipbuilding Industry Company (also known as Wuchang Shipyard or 438 Factory) in Wuhan, Hubei Province and Jiangnan Shipyard Group Corporation in Shanghai. At least 16 hulls have been delivered to the PLA Navy since 1994.

The first-of-class of the Type 039 submarine No.320 was launched on 25 May 1994 at Wuchang Shipyard, and started sea trials in August 1995. However, the submarine was not fully operational until 1999 due to serious design flaws, including unsatisfactory underwater performance and noise level. After some major redesign work, a modified Type 039G variant (No.321) entered the service in April 2001, followed by the second (No.322) in December 2001 and the third (No.323) in November 2003.

In 2004, Wuchang Shipyard began to construct a further improved variant known as Type 039G1. At the same time, Shanghai-based Jiangnan Shipyard also began to built the Type 039G1 submarine, indicating that the submarine design has been finalised and serial production begun. Since then, a total of 12 boats (No.324~No.326, No.313~No.318, No.327~No.329) have been built. 

Design


Type 039G1 (Chinese Internet) 


The Type 039 was designed for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface warfare (ASuW) using torpedoes and submarine-launched anti-ship missiles. The submarine is also capable of reconnaissance, water mine laying and patrol roles. The submarine itself is a blend of Chinese and Western technologies, and represents a major step forward in Chinas conventional submarine design.

Compared with the previous Chinese-built submarines, the Type 039 has a more hydro-dynamically sleek profile. To reduce the submarines acoustic signature, the main engine is fitted with a shock absorbance, and the hull is covered by rubber anti-sonar protection tiles similar to those used on the Russian Kilo class. The submarine has a pair of fin-mounted hydroplanes, four rudders, and a single large skewed propeller.

The first and only basic variant Type 039 submarine has a stepped conning fin, with the bridge a step lower than the part of the fin that contains masts. This design was reported to have affected the submarines underwater performance and noise level, and was replaced by a different shape with no cutaway on the subsequent Type 039s.

Armaments


Type 039G (Chinese Internet) 


The Type 039 is equipped with six bow 533mm torpedo tubes, which can be used to fire torpedoes and submarine-launched anti-ship missile (AShM). The Type 039 is equipped with the Yu-3 electric-propelled, acoustic-homing anti-submarine torpedo and Yu-4 (Russian SAET-50/60 copy) electric-propelled, passive acoustic-homing anti-ship torpedo (speed: 30kt; range 6km). The new-generation Yu-6 wire-homing anti-submarine torpedo and an unknown model of wake-homing anti-ship torpedo may have also been equipped by the Type 039.

The submarine can also carry 4~6 YJ-82 AShM, which are carried inside cylinder-shape containers and launched from the torpedo tubes. The missile approaches the target area in sea-skimming mode using inertial navigation and then active radar homing. The missile travels at speeds over Mach 0.9, and has a range of 40~80km. The YJ-82 has a 165kg HE shaped-charge warhead with time delayed impact proximity fuses.

The submarine carries 18 torpedoes/AShM containers, with 6 in the launch tubes and 12 on the weapon racks. Alternatively the submarine can carry 24~36 sea mines.

Sensor Suite


The inside view of the Type 039G1's combat information centre (Chinese Internet) 


The Type 039 deploys an indigenously developed underwater sensor suite consisting an active/passive bow-mounted array, an H/SQG-04 passive interception and ranging array, and two passive flank arrays.

The new digital bow-mounted, medium-frequency sonar designed for passive and active search and attack was said to be based on a French Thomson-CSF design, and capable of tracking 4~12 targets simultaneously. Additional functions of the sonar array include underwater communication and torpedo approach warning.

The flank-mounted low-frequency passive array was believed to be also based on French Thomson-CSF technology. It can track up to 4 targets simultaneously to a maximum range of 30km.

There is an I-band radar for surface search purpose. The SRW209 electronic warfare suite consists of electronic support measures (ESM), radar warning receiver and radio direction-finder.

In addition, the submarine is fitted with an indigenous combat data system capable of multiple targets tracking, threat evaluation, surveillance, and navigation.

Propulsions

The Type 039 is powered by three German MTU 16V396SE84 diesels. The large asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller of the submarine helps to further reduce the noise level.


----------



## Super Falcon

The Type 039A/B, codenamed Yuan Class by the NATO, is a new type of non-nuclear submarine introduced by the PLA Navy in 2004. The submarine was built by Wuchang Shipyard in the inland Hubei Province. The Type 039A is reportedly China&#8217;s first submarine to be incorporated with an advanced air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, which enhances the submarine&#8217;s underwater performance and reduce its vulnerability to detention.

The Yuan Class appears to be a mixture of Chinese indigenous designs and Russian influence, with four diving planes and a single large shaft. The teardrop shaped hull and large sail suggest heavy Kilo influence. A pair of foreplanes are positioned in the middle of the sail. The hull of the submarine is covered with rubber anti-sonar protection tiles to reduce the risk of detection.

It was reported that the Yuan Class was equipped with an indigenously-developed AIP system, which allows the submarine to remain submerged on battery at slow speed for days or even weeks without having to surface to recharge batteries. The tactical flexibility, small size, and inherent stealth of such a system offers conventional diesel-electric submarines a remarkable increase in capability, making them dangerous threat to conventional and even nuclear submarines. It is believed that the AIP system used by the Type 039A may be a 100 kilowatt Stirling-cycle heat engines with external combustion design, developed by the 717 Institute of the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC).

The submarine has six 533mm bow torpedo tubes (2 above, 4 below), which can launch a range of Chinese indigenous or Russian wire-/acoustic-/wake-homing torpedoes, as well as the 80km-range YJ-82 submarine-launched anti-ship missile. For mine warfare missions, the submarine can carry 18~24 mines in its torpedo tubes.

The first-of-class hull No. 330 was launched on 31 May 2004, but its commission may have been delayed due to technical difficulties. Construction of the second hull began in 2006 and the submarine was launched in 2007. The two boats differ in the sail design and water holes arrangement.


----------



## mughaljee

mjnaushad said:


> Why dont you write a cheque to German athorties as GOP is little low on bank balance......
> 
> PRICE is a big factor for us as we are terribly war struck country.



This is 
Why dont you write a cheque to German athorties as GOP is little low on bank balance......
&
Right and to the point answer could be this, 
*PRICE is a big factor for us as we are terribly war struck country*.


----------



## Penguin

cabatli_53 said:


> Which International treaty hold Turkey to export one of those systems I have typed above, to Pakistan, When Turkey agreed on selling some of them ?



Turkey is a NATO country. Nato has policies on arms control and -exports. Likewise the EU, of which Turkey is seeking membership.

Such international organisations are based on treaties, which need not specifically ban the sale of item X to country Z, but they will affect possibilities.

And also, don't underestimate the influence of bi-lateral agreements. Turkey is a longstanding receiver of US foreign military aid, for example. All that is leverage.

e.g. News Analysis: NATO, Arms Control and Nonproliferation: An Alliance Divided? | Arms Control Association

e.g. US Woos War Allies with Cash, Weapons


----------



## Jigs

Penguin i am wondering how would you assess the current Turkish Navy. Do you see any improvements we can make ? Just wondering.


----------



## Super Falcon

welll i dont think so that their is right given by germans to sell pakistan specially


----------



## Penguin

Jigs said:


> Penguin i am wondering how would you assess the current Turkish Navy. Do you see any improvements we can make ? Just wondering.



Comparable to other NATO navies e.g. German and Spanish navies. All the MEKOs should move up to ESSM/VL. OHPs could benefit from a refit like the Australian one: SM2+ESSM/VL. Eventually a class of dedicated AAW vessels is needed. By which time OHPs should be paying off. MEKO A200 seems a good candidate and complement to existing MEKO fleet. Also, compared to NATO navies, it's time for an LPD or 2 and fewer LSTs.


----------



## cabatli_53

Penguin said:


> Turkey is a NATO country. Nato has policies on arms control and -exports. Likewise the EU, of which Turkey is seeking membership.



Nato is a pact which standardise the type of armaments to increase the cooperation capabilities of NATO allies under a same roof against a common threat. It has nothing to control the arm exports of members, Until you did not supply the armaments for a common threat like terorists. At current global world, Even Russia is selling many strategic weapon system to NATO countries and NATO countries are also doing same...

EU is also same. It is a politic and economic organisation that is encouraging the own members to make more trade among eachothers and take common agreements politically and act like one hand at foreign policies. EU just encourage the members to order European made weapons to keep the euro in their zone but It is not a prohibition for members to order only European products. Poland, England, Italy and many others can be given as an example to this situation...





Penguin said:


> Such international organisations are based on treaties, which need not specifically ban the sale of item X to country Z, but they will affect possibilities.



As I said, Except some special international treaties signed to stop expanding the mass destruction weapons such as MTCR, NPT...etc, Others has nothing to do with export policies of countries between eachothers... When Turkey agreed on cooperating with Pakistan about U-214 subsystems and Those systems I have mentioned, have been developed by Turkish engineers, Others have just rights to appreciate Turkey and Pakistan partnership.



Penguin said:


> And also, don't underestimate the influence of bi-lateral agreements. Turkey is a longstanding receiver of US foreign military aid, for example. All that is leverage.



Yes indeed. It is the explanation of "Politic effect" . It has nothing to do with international treaties to make a trade with an X country.


----------



## Jigs

Penguin said:


> Comparable to other NATO navies e.g. German and Spanish navies. All the MEKOs should move up to ESSM/VL. OHPs could benefit from a refit like the Australian one: SM2+ESSM/VL. Eventually a class of dedicated AAW vessels is needed. By which time OHPs should be paying off. MEKO A200 seems a good candidate and complement to existing MEKO fleet. Also, compared to NATO navies, it's time for an LPD or 2 and fewer LSTs.



This is what we currently have in the works for future procurement.

Two additional K&#305;l&#305;&#231;-II class fast attack missile boats and three additional A class mine hunters are currently under construction.

Plans to build a total of four TF-2000 class AAW frigates the acquisition of a Landing Platform Dock (LPD) and a total of six Type 214 AIP submarines were approved by the Turkish Ministry of Defense on 12 December 2006. The RfI issued for the LPD project states that the requirement is for one LPD carrying 4 Landing Craft Mechanics (LCM), 27 Amphibious Assault Vehicles (AAV), 2 Landing Craft Personnel Vehicles (LCPV), 1 Commander Boat and 1 Rubber Hull Inflated Boat (RHIB). The Turkish Navy also plans to acquire 2 new Tank Landing Ships (LST), 8 new Tank Landing Crafts (LCT), 16 new Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPV) with ASW capability, 2 new Rescue & Towing (R&T) ships, and 1 new Submarine Rescue Mother Ship (MOSHIP).

The Yavuz class MEKO ships which are the ones that don't have ESSM yet are going to undergo that upgrade i believe. The rest have VLS Mk 41 Mod.8 which can launch ESSM.


----------



## Penguin

Jigs said:


> The Yavuz class MEKO ships which are the ones that don't have ESSM yet are going to undergo that upgrade i believe. The rest have VLS Mk 41 Mod.8 which can launch ESSM.




I like the Sea Guard CIWS fit on these ships, which also makes them eminently suitable for dealing with small craft and asymmetric threats (3x quad 25mm KBB rocks)


----------



## Jigs

Penguin said:


> I like the Sea Guard CIWS fit on these ships, which also makes them eminently suitable for dealing with small craft and asymmetric threats (3x quad 25mm KBB rocks)







 You can see it firing at a incoming target in this video. The thing rips. 

Do you know other nations that operate this system. Usually they go for the Phalanx CIWS. It seems our Navy operates the MEKOs as a defensive ship to deny assets more then anything. Our G-class(OHP) are the ships we operate for an offensive role.


----------



## Penguin

Jigs said:


> YouTube - Turkish Sea Zenith CIWS Weapon (Cehennem Silahi) You can see it firing at a incoming target in this video. The thing rips.
> 
> Do you know other nations that operate this system. Usually they go for the Phalanx CIWS. It seems our Navy operates the MEKOs as a defensive ship to deny assets more then anything. Our G-class(OHP) are the ships we operate for an offensive role.



Turkey is the only navy to have adopted the system, with it's distinctive canted gun mounts and hemispherical gun coverage. The 25mm KBB (25x184) round is very close in performance to the 30mm round fired by the GAU-8 gatling (30x173).

Comparison pic from the website of Tony Williams


----------



## Super Falcon

pakistan navy always get interested but when time to come for signing the deal they run like horses


----------



## bd_4_ever

Super Falcon said:


> pakistan navy always get interested but when time to come for signing the deal they run like horses




Dont be negative....military deals are not a one-night occurance....takes time, may be your GoP taking a look into some other prospectives as well....

Btw, has any deal been signed yet with the Chinese??


Cheers!!!


----------



## Penguin

cabatli_53 said:


> Nato is a pact which standardise the type of armaments to increase the cooperation capabilities of NATO allies under a same roof against a common threat. It has nothing to control the arm exports of members, Until you did not supply the armaments for a common threat like terorists. At current global world, Even Russia is selling many strategic weapon system to NATO countries and NATO countries are also doing same...
> 
> EU is also same. It is a politic and economic organisation that is encouraging the own members to make more trade among eachothers and take common agreements politically and act like one hand at foreign policies. EU just encourage the members to order European made weapons to keep the euro in their zone but It is not a prohibition for members to order only European products. Poland, England, Italy and many others can be given as an example to this situation...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, Except some special international treaties signed to stop expanding the mass destruction weapons such as MTCR, NPT...etc, Others has nothing to do with export policies of countries between eachothers... When Turkey agreed on cooperating with Pakistan about U-214 subsystems and Those systems I have mentioned, have been developed by Turkish engineers, Others have just rights to appreciate Turkey and Pakistan partnership.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeed. It is the explanation of "Politic effect" . It has nothing to do with international treaties to make a trade with an X country.



I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.


----------



## Super Falcon

PN is just interested but not interested in buying them but watching them

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mani2020

For many years Pakistan navy deals are more controversial than anything else.

As our people mostly concentrate and focus on Air force and army so the navy get a chance to sneak through

There is no budgetary problems with PN as many people think because in Pakistan Arm forces modernization program *equal budget was allocated for PAF and PN *,so when PAF can buy so much of equipment with that budget like 4 il-78,5saab-2000, 4Kj-200,jf-17, 5billion deal for f-16

Than why cant navy buy few german submarines with that money

History has shown us that we have puppets in navy more than in any other field and most of you people still remember the Augosta-90 submarine deals

Patriotism is a good thing but its the over patriotism that leads to our disaster.
Criticizing anything is a best way to get the best out of it

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khurasaan1

i hope to see some PN get some modern warfare systems soon ;subs and ships or be able to build at home in vast numbers.


----------



## khurasaan1

Super Falcon said:


> PN is just interested but not interested in buying them but watching them



I totally agree with u till tday....
u gave funny picture of PN


----------



## Super Falcon

pn is the most conterversial armed force it lacks good leadership and strong leadership too that put their case forwar navy is more important as airforce with out good navy even if u had best airforce u cannot defend your self for last 20 years they only bought 3 agostas and 4 frigates major deals where is the money of that last 20 years went the navy leadership is waitting that USA and UK retires their ship and they get it in free i know naval equipment is expansive than the other 2 forces but money of 20 years would be enough to buy another 10 ships and 5 subs

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## khurasaan1

The PN have the tech now to make its own Agostas and Naval Warships like F22's...they should keep making them..they dont need to look around and buy more I guess.It is the time for them to stand on its own feet instead of others to help it stand up LOL...PN should not act as kid they go the technology to develop anythng now...


----------



## Super Falcon

well with one sub and frigate it is not like that pakistan start making destroyer and nuke subs we have to be technologically greats to make them in country we have the tech of agosta which is 16 years old we need new tech and we only know old tech agosta still not too old but the subs produced in 2010 are far more better than agosta 90B


----------



## ramu

Super Falcon said:


> PN is just interested but not interested in buying them but watching them



Lets face it. If not France or Germany, Pakistan will have no other option but China.

France is unreliable and Germany is looking good for now.


----------



## Super Falcon

well chinese subs are not that bad but germany can be one option too french are useless after what they have done on JF 17 avionic package


----------



## khurasaan1

Super Falcon said:


> well with one sub and frigate it is not like that pakistan start making destroyer and nuke subs we have to be technologically greats to make them in country we have the tech of agosta which is 16 years old we need new tech and we only know old tech agosta still not too old but the subs produced in 2010 are far more better than agosta 90B



I can understand your point of view but since we have best brains we can also develop the best technology like the Germans do. The engineers around the world study the same coursez so there should be no difficulty in any present tech usage.Just our engineerz be provided a chance to develop somethng and we will be amazed by the best results inshallah.
Zarra num ho toh yeh mutti barri zarkhez hah saaqi


----------



## khurasaan1

ramu said:


> Lets face it. If not France or Germany, Pakistan will have no other option but China.
> 
> France is unreliable and Germany is looking good for now.



Soon inshallah Pak engineerz will develop the subs far superior than any sub around the world even the German U214'nz


----------



## Nav

Pakistan is gain sufficient experience in Agosta project. Nw pakistan shouldn't buy a sub but develop an entire new sub . A Jv with china Or Jv between China, turkey, and Pakistan,


----------



## Super Falcon

well in need of time pn should atleast sign deal from china for 3 subs and 4 subs from Eu would do better


----------

