# Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion.



## Kompromat

Post all new details about Arjun2 MBT's development.

Don't post individual threads.

*Please note, that 'repeated breaches' or 'personal attacks' will invite a 'permanent thread ban', which means that you may not be allowed to participate here for an unspecified amount of time!! *

@sandy_3126 , @KRAIT , @sancho

Gents feel free to use the ranking system. Help me moderate. I hope to have sound/fair judgements from you. Mention me if punitive action is required.

Best l Aeronaut.

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## Friei Indien

this is Arjun mkII, Germans did some work on it and as a result of that u can see its front luks like German Leopard tank. when Israeli tank experts tested it, they referred it as 'desert ferrari'

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## sms

Friei Indien said:


> this is Arjun mkII, Germans did some work on it and as a result of that u can see its front luks like German Leopard tank. when Israeli tank experts tested it, they referred it as 'desert ferrari'



Bro are you sure you've posted the correct picture of Arjun2 ? It looks different at least front part is does not look like Arjun2


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## Friei Indien

sms said:


> Bro are you sure you've posted the correct picture of Arjun2 ? It looks different at least front part is does not look like Arjun2


of course ive posted correct pic, it may luk like T-90S but its not

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## Gessler

Friei Indien said:


> of course ive posted correct pic, it may luk like T-90S but its not



That is every bit a T-90.

BTW, here's a labelled picture of the Arjun Mk-2 to start off the thread -

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## GR!FF!N



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## vostok

There is T-90 on top photo.

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## GR!FF!N

Arjun Mk-II can fire Lahat.but can it be used to fire Refleks ATGM too(most probably no as it is designed for 125 mm gun)???also,any comparison between these two??


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## sms

Friei Indien said:


> of course ive posted correct pic, it may luk like T-90S but its not



Bro it's wrong picture ..it's T-90

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## Alfa-Fighter

sms said:


> Bro it's wrong picture ..it's T-90


Its Arjun..


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## Afghan-India

GR!FF!N said:


>


Damn its a killer! 

Anyone what kind of protection measures does the tank use?

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## Robinhood Pandey

Afghan-India said:


> Damn its a killer!
> 
> Anyone what kind of protection measures does the tank use?


Trophy (countermeasure) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kanchan armour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Juice

Looks like a leopard and T-90 had an unholy union....


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## farhan_9909

The turret of arjun MK2 is same older as in the Basic Arjun but having just addition of ERA coverage


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## Gessler

farhan_9909 said:


> The turret of arjun MK2 is same older as in the Basic Arjun but having just addition of ERA coverage



Which means all the armor thickness of Arjun Mk-1 has been retained, and additional
ERA/composite laminate armor blocks have been added as addition, plus Trophy APS.

Protection is on top level.

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## kurup

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Its Arjun..



Nope . The picture on post#2 is a T90 .


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## kbd-raaf

Juice said:


> Looks like a leopard and T-90 had an unholy union....



Oh lord, I just imagined that. 

Do you think the barrel and the exhaust :/

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## HariPrasad

sms said:


> Bro are you sure you've posted the correct picture of Arjun2 ? It looks different at least front part is does not look like Arjun2




Pl look at the Mine plaugh. You will get an idea.


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## Janmejay

When Arjunmk2 will be inducted?


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## sms

Friei Indien said:


> of course ive posted correct pic, it may luk like T-90S but its not





Alfa-Fighter said:


> Its Arjun..





HariPrasad said:


> Pl look at the Mine plaugh. You will get an idea.



Friends.. the picture posted in post#2 is NOT Arjun but T-90. For benefit of fellow members I've highlighted areas to differentiate it from Arjun.







Ophs..forget to highlight gun barrel. Please add to the identifier list.

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## kurup



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## HariPrasad

kurup said:


>




The mines sweeps as appeared in last picture is clearly visible in initial picture of post no 2.


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## Gessler

HariPrasad said:


> The mines sweeps as appeared in last picture is clearly visible in initial picture of post no 2.



So? The same mine plough can be fitted on both tanks Arjun and T-90.

The tank in post 2 is a T-90 by all means.


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## Kurama

it's a killer for sure and among the best in the world. I don't know why army is hesitating for it's mass production and induction.


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## SR-91

captain steel said:


> man it looks killer baby!!!!!!




call it "*ARJUNATOR"*


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## IND151

Friei Indien said:


> this is Arjun mkII, Germans did some work on it and as a result of that u can see its front luks like German Leopard tank. when Israeli tank experts tested it, they referred it as 'desert ferrari'



Its T 90

BTW I hope members will like this article. 

Story of MBT 80- Arjun


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## Janmejay

Kurama said:


> it's a killer for sure and among the best in the world. I don't know why army is hesitating for it's mass production and induction.


well i didnt read anywhere that army si hesitating to induct arjunmk2......source please.....


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## Kurama

Janmejay said:


> well i didnt read anywhere that army si hesitating to induct arjunmk2......source please.....



Indian Army will be inducting Only 248 Arjun MK I and 224 MK 2 according to latest news. where as thousands of T 90S is been inducted into army.

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*India to make Arjun Mk-II tanks by 2014*
version of the indigenous Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) by early 2014, an official said here Monday.

The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is already readying the Mark-II version of the Arjun for its first summer and winter trials this year. Among the upgrades, the Mark-II tank would feature an indigenous engine that would replace the existing German engines of the 58-tonne Arjun Mark-I. The developments come within a year of the government sanctioning the Arjun Mark-II project last May.

“In 24 months from now or early 2014, the Arjun Mark-II tanks will be ready for production,” the DRDO official said.

The army has already ordered 248 Arjun Mark-I tanks for induction into its armored regiments. The first lot of 124 tanks, for which the orders were placed on the Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in 2004 at a cost of Rs.170 million ($4 million) each, have been handed over to the army.

The army is now operating the 124 Arjuns as part of two regiments in the western sector and last May placed an order for an additional 124 tanks, primarily to keep the production line in HVF running before the Mark-II version is ready for manufacturing.

The army gained confidence in operating the Arjun tanks, despite the initial hesitation, after the first two regiments were pitted against the Russian-built T-90 MBTs early last year in comparative trials in the desert terrain. The Arjuns had outsmarted the T-90s in all the parameters set for the trials and had prompted the army top brass to agree to inducting two more regiments.

The Arjun Mark-II will have about a dozen changes from the first lot, being armed with missile firing capability through a laser homing device. Though this system had been tested on the Mark-I version of the tank about five years ago, it did not form part of the final design of the initial 124 delivered to the army, and nor will it be mounted on the second lot of 124.

The system, they said, would have a range of about eight km, within which it could destroy enemy tanks after homing on to the target using a laser. Other modifications include better explosive-reactive armor for the tank to protect it from enemy missiles and rockets, improving the sighting facility to provide it a wider view of the battlefield, including night vision capability, and a better communication system.

The Arjun Mark-II will have over 90 percent indigenous systems on board, except for some hydraulic and electronic systems.

India to make Arjun Mk-II tanks by 2014 | StratPost

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## Gessler

Kurama said:


> Indian Army will be inducting Only 248 Arjun MK I and 224 MK 2 according to latest news. where as thousands of T 90S is been inducted into army.
> 
> Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *India to make Arjun Mk-II tanks by 2014*
> version of the indigenous Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) by early 2014, an official said here Monday.
> 
> The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is already readying the Mark-II version of the Arjun for its first summer and winter trials this year. Among the upgrades, the Mark-II tank would feature an indigenous engine that would replace the existing German engines of the 58-tonne Arjun Mark-I. The developments come within a year of the government sanctioning the Arjun Mark-II project last May.
> 
> “In 24 months from now or early 2014, the Arjun Mark-II tanks will be ready for production,” the DRDO official said.
> 
> The army has already ordered 248 Arjun Mark-I tanks for induction into its armored regiments. The first lot of 124 tanks, for which the orders were placed on the Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in 2004 at a cost of Rs.170 million ($4 million) each, have been handed over to the army.
> 
> The army is now operating the 124 Arjuns as part of two regiments in the western sector and last May placed an order for an additional 124 tanks, primarily to keep the production line in HVF running before the Mark-II version is ready for manufacturing.
> 
> The army gained confidence in operating the Arjun tanks, despite the initial hesitation, after the first two regiments were pitted against the Russian-built T-90 MBTs early last year in comparative trials in the desert terrain. The Arjuns had outsmarted the T-90s in all the parameters set for the trials and had prompted the army top brass to agree to inducting two more regiments.
> 
> The Arjun Mark-II will have about a dozen changes from the first lot, being armed with missile firing capability through a laser homing device. Though this system had been tested on the Mark-I version of the tank about five years ago, it did not form part of the final design of the initial 124 delivered to the army, and nor will it be mounted on the second lot of 124.
> 
> The system, they said, would have a range of about eight km, within which it could destroy enemy tanks after homing on to the target using a laser. Other modifications include better explosive-reactive armor for the tank to protect it from enemy missiles and rockets, improving the sighting facility to provide it a wider view of the battlefield, including night vision capability, and a better communication system.
> 
> The Arjun Mark-II will have over 90 percent indigenous systems on board, except for some hydraulic and electronic systems.
> 
> India to make Arjun Mk-II tanks by 2014 | StratPost



Those guys got their maths wrong. Only 124 Mk-1 and 118 Mk-2s have been
ordered thus far.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Only 118 inducted till now n yes I have provided the sources several times before 124 is the *order* for mk2... Arjun 1 is an obsolete mint lets see what mk2 brings to the table..


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## Gessler

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @gslv mk3 there is a difference between a jet and a tank./. Lol .. But what would you know you failed on both accounts..



Not true. We have made ~200 Su-30MKIs and have
800+ T-90 tanks, both these are 'indigenous' according
to Pakistani logic...so, you are wrong.

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## Hellfire

GR!FF!N said:


> Arjun Mk-II can fire Lahat.but can it be used to fire Refleks ATGM too(most probably no as it is designed for 125 mm gun)???also,any comparison between these two??



Yes. Both can be fired


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## Gessler

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Loser first make it operational .. Or is it anther face saving exercise like Arjun with its 118 units in service which are of no real use..



Number in service are 124, not 118. The 118
number is the no. of Arjun Mk-2s ordered.



> Cool now keep using them instead of ur sups dupa lca or Arjun..



It seems you don't know a thing about either equipment. You should keep admiring junk fighter-17 and A-K tank and continue to believe they are superior to F-22 Raptor and M1A2 Abrams respectively.

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## gslv mk3

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Loser first make it operational .. Or is it anther face saving exercise like Arjun with its 118 units in service which are of no real use..



Yes face saving exercise with IAF inducting it ( 40 mk 1 on order ) & navy ordering them to replace the sea harrier....
Both these are unlike your AF that doesnt have any choice other than 'Joint' cheesyFighter 17 ....

Now do you know that we operationalised our *first indigenously developed jet fighter in the 60s ??
*
Now go loser ,go make the first indigenous Pakistani aircraft (non-existant) operational...!!!!

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## Hellfire

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Loser first make it operational .. Or is it anther face saving exercise like Arjun with its 118 units in service which are of no real use..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool now keep using them instead of ur sups dupa lca or Arjun..




Use of Arjun is well documented and identified in western deserts. Hence increasing numbers of the same are being ordered in an on-going process. T-90s are being inducted due to the fact that along with previously existing T-72s, they shall be forming the bulk of tanks as Arjun was ready only by 2006 while contract for T90s was done in 2000. So the same is continuing. Additionally, due to the inability to air lift Arjun by IL-76/C-17 transport, India still needs the narrowed T types. Especially in view of additional 02 x independent armored brigades being raised under the aegis of new mountain strike corps viz in Ladakh and Eastern sector.

@ gessler and gslv mk3: guys he has managed to junk the thread by you guys posting one after another in reply to his needling. You are trolling as much as he. So maybe if you have nothing to add, can it and don't derail the thread.

Additionally, whether we like it or not, JF-17 is airborne and proven now. LCA is in process of same. So you can't deride what is operational and for him he can't what is being operationalized. So please ignore him and add what you can here

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## Hellfire

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> now tell us how obsolete n useless it is.



stop the trolling if you don't have anything to add. Rebut on facts. M1A (Abrams) project was launched in 1970s by US to replace M60s. The first of M1s came only in 1984. In 1991 in 1st Gulf war, US had majority of M60s and few M1s which were under going up gradation of their armor due to emergence of FSAPDS LRPs which were able to penetrate the earlier M1s armor with added protection of layer of Depleted Uranium. Additionally, the gun of M1 is German (Rhinemetall) so you can really can your 'long process - still evolving' non-sense. And one can not deny M1s are doing exceptionally well on the battle fields even after almost 40 years since they were conceptualized.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Low crap aircraft n Arjunk are failures .. Search the forum n you will find the threads.. Or give me half an hour.. N Il post them with data. Or you n ur gang can keep crying. :lol



Chuck your forum. Bring it on buddy. Let's get the facts in.

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## sms

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> now tell us how obsolete n useless it is..
> 
> Lol I didn't even bring em in the discussion .. You blind loser? .... Low crap aircraft n Arjunk are failures .. Search the forum n you will find the threads.. Or give me half an hour.. N Il post them with data. Or you n ur gang can keep crying. :lol



DO NOT troll! This discussion about Arjun MKII stick to topic and if you do not have any thing to add, please keep quite!

@Oscar @WebMaster FYI

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## MilSpec

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Only 118 inducted till now n yes I have provided the sources several times before 124 is the *order* for mk2... Arjun 1 is an obsolete mint lets see what mk2 brings to the table..


Please do explain how arjun mk1 MBT is Obsolete? Please desist from usual displayed semantics and engage in meaningful discourse, if any

@Aeronaut please keep a check on this thread....

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## AnnoyingOrange

Rehne do yar.... aaj Pakistani bahut khunnas main hain... inki Sarkar aur Army nain Hindustan ke rocket ke jawab main koi Missile test nahi kiya hai....gussa jayaz hai...

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## Capt.Popeye

sms said:


> DO NOT troll! This discussion about Arjun MKII stick to topic and if you do not have any thing to add, please keep quite!
> 
> @Oscar @WebMaster FYI


 
LOLL, the ever-repeating story of the level of 'technical debate' nowadays on PDF.
And the guy that you're talkin' at represents one of the "_elite_ fraterrnity of trollers" here.

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## Blast##

Can Arjun fire canister round like smooth barrel gun tanks . ??

Can Arjun fire canister round like smooth barrel gun tanks . ??


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## Black Widow

Blast## said:


> Can Arjun fire canister round like smooth barrel gun tanks . ??
> 
> Can Arjun fire canister round like smooth barrel gun tanks . ??




Rifled barrel Gun can fire those round (missiles) using ring around the ammunition. Just imagine a bearing between Missiles and barrel. Once missile leave barrel, the bearing disintegrate and missile leave as it is leaving smooth barrel gun.


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## SRP



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## Panther13

The *Arjun Mk.II* main battle tank made its debut at India's 65th Republic Day Parade today. Incorporating over seventy improvements over the Arjun Mk.I, the improved variant is in a final phase (hopefully) of user trials, according to the DRDO. In a statement put out yesterday, the DRDO stated, "Arjun Mark II incorporates enhanced firepower with Automated Target Tracking and greater variety of ammunition including Gun-fired anti-tank missile and the devastating Thermobaric ammunition; enhanced protection that include Explosive Reactive Armor, Laser Warning come Countermeasure System, a Mine Plough, a Remotely operable Anti-Aircraft weapon, a Roof mounted driving seat; Advanced Land Navigation System and Enhanced night vision capabilities."

Fondly referred to as ‘Desert Ferrari’ for its mobility, Main Battle Tank (MBT Arjun) MK-II, would be among the several indigenously developed weapons on display at this year’s Republic Day Parade on Sunday.


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## dekho

Anybody remember reading this ancient article on Arjun mk2?

http://the_kitsune.tripod.com/Rifts-Earth-Vehicles/Indian_Arjun_MkII_MBT.htm

This article was written before India-US relations grew and it speculated US would wage war on India by 2012 and Arjun 2 would be there to defend.

I read it way back in 2006.


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## Dazzler

desert warrior said:


>




i was expecting a local Indian version ERA on it, rather sad to see the Relikt. Unfortunately DRDO is still copying the Kontakt 1 series when its not appropriate.


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> i was expecting a local Indian version ERA on it, rather sad to see the Relikt. Unfortunately DRDO is still copying the Kontakt 1 series when its not appropriate.




It is locally made. But obviously influenced by Russian type.

This makes sense, India has been making T90s for a while now. And mark 2 was speced out, readied for trials very quickly.

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> It is locally made. But obviously influenced by Russian type.
> 
> This makes sense, India has been make T90s for a while now. And mark 2 was speced out, readied for trials very quickly.





nope, this is made by DRDO









this is the one on Arjun...


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> nope, this is made by DRDO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is the one on Arjun...





Do you even know how massive those plates are on Arjun mark 2? It doesnt even look like a direct copy.










It's probably double the size of the one on T-90 models too.










And the turret looks like it was cut up to arrange like it is. This is a custom made ERA plates for mark 2.

It's influenced by the Russian types, but it's locally made to fit the size.

If it was a direct copy, it wouldnt even look right.

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## IndoUS

Wouldn't we need Russian approval if the the ERA plates were Russian design/technology. But since in the foreign component list there isn't any mention of Russia, I believe the ERA are the one DRDO made, there was even a video couple of months ago of them testing the ERA plates.


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## Water Car Engineer

IndoUS said:


> Wouldn't we need Russian approval if the the ERA plates were Russian design/technology. But since in the foreign component list there isn't any mention of Russia, I believe the ERA are the one DRDO made, there was even a video couple of months ago of them testing the ERA plates.












Chinese and Indians locally make similar ERA blocks that have origins to Russian designs.

Probably Eastern Europeans make similar ones too, to fit their own platforms.

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## Dazzler

you guys are funny, google "Relikt" and "Kontakt 5", they look similar but are a generation apart, the one on T-90S is Kontakt-5, the one on Arjun is Relikt, and it is NOT made by India, rather imported from Russia and put on for a parade. 

Chinese ERA is known as FY- series, google it too, but Chinese usually dont mount ERA on their type-99s, the pic above is additional composite layer at the front turret, not ERA.



Water Car Engineer said:


> Do you even know how massive those plates are on Arjun mark 2? It doesnt even look like a direct copy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's probably double the size of the one on T-90 models too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the turret looks like it was cut up to arrange like it is. This is a custom made ERA plates for mark 2.
> 
> It's influenced by the Russian types, but it's locally made to fit the size.
> 
> If it was a direct copy, it wouldnt even look right.



prove your claim please, custom made ERA for Arjun

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## egodoc222



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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> you guys are funny, google "Relikt" and "Kontakt 5", they look similar but are a generation apart, the one on T-90S is Kontakt-5, the one on Arjun is Relikt, and it is NOT made by India, *rather imported from Russia and put on for a parade.*




Simply not the cause, do I sense a little jelly going on?



Dazzler said:


> prove your claim please, custom made ERA for Arjun




How about you show that they are Russian Relikt imports from the ones on T-90MS?

They're not even the same dimensions.

And Mark 2, with those panels were shown before T-90MS.


The CGI was shown way back as 2011.

Broadsword: Heavier, more lethal Arjun tank poised for trials

And the prototype with those panels were shown before MS was even unveiled, dont be so jelly.


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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Simply not the cause, do I sense a little jelly going on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about you show that they are Russian Relikt imports from the ones on T-90MS?
> 
> They're not even the same dimensions.
> 
> And Mark 2, with those panels were shown before T-90MS.
> 
> 
> The CGI was shown way back as 2011.
> 
> Broadsword: Heavier, more lethal Arjun tank poised for trials
> 
> And the prototype with those panels were shown before MS was even unveiled, dont be so jelly.




FIRST thing, Relikt ERA has been in service since late 90s so your point of it being newer than Arjun Mk2 is mute. MS is NOT the first tank with Relikt, in fact,T-90M had it back then. Google it 


Well, we have been making our own (AORAK series) for 12 years now so me being jealous? thats a good one 


on the contrary, can you name the ERA made for Arjun Mk2, IF it is not Relikt? DRDO has a habit of putting everything on website you know, sigh, all they have is this...


DRDO::Life Sciences Engineering



I have matched the dimensions of this ERA and it is exact as Relikt. Refute with evidence please..


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## Armstrong

@Ayush - Yeh kiyaa drameiii baaziii haiii ? Your Arjun has such a bad color scheme !  

Bandaa koiii Aesthetics ka hiii khiyaal rakh leitaa haiii !  

Where are the Chrome Plated Wheel Cups, the Gun Metal Carbon Textured Body & the Spoilers to go with it that you promised ?

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## BCCItheGreat

I have some questions
1. Do we need mine plow for all the vehicles?
2. Are the sides protected?
3. As the tonnage is more, dont we need more powerful engine?


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> on the contrary, can you name the ERA made for Arjun Mk2, IF it is not Relikt? DRDO has a habit of putting everything on website you know, sigh, all they have is this...
> 
> 
> DRDO::Life Sciences Engineering




None of the Indian PSU sites have a habit of updating anything. All look like half assed works.

Just look at the missile products. They even have missiles like Trishal that are long cancelled.

DRDO


Now, DRDO and India in general are transparent about where they get their things. Please provide us with a source saying it's relikt. Simple as that, otherwise, its an jellygasam.

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> None of the Indian PSU sites have a habit of updating anything. All look like half assed works.
> 
> Just look at the missile products. They even have missiles like Trishal that are long cancelled.
> 
> DRDO
> 
> 
> Now, DRDO and India in general are transparent about where they get their things. Please provide us with a source saying it's relikt. Simple as that, otherwise, its an jellygasam.




not buying without source, indian website even update LCA flights, how can they not boast something as crucial as a sophisticated reactive armour? They bought it off the shelf and put it on Arjun, there is no shame in it.

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> not buying without source, indian website even update LCA flights, how can they not boast something as crucial as a sophisticated reactive armour? *They bought it off the shelf and put it on Arjun, there is no shame in it.*




Like I said, where is the source? And, no, I dont look at Indian PSU site ,period. Only sites that dont do half assed websites, are probably some private entities.

I can give you sources for sourced systems like the passive defense systems from Elbits, the commander sight, etc. These were stated before we even seen the tank.


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## Dazzler

BCCItheGreat said:


> I have some questions
> 1. Do we need mine plow for all the vehicles?
> 2. Are the sides protected?
> 3. As the tonnage is more, dont we need more powerful engine?




1. Well, it depends upon the terrain, yes most armoured vehicles can be mounted with mine plough eqpt

2. As per the pics, they are reasonably well protected, unless i do a disection of armour plates as to either they are HHS+composite or simply HHS sheets.

3. For 60+ metric tonnes, 1500 hp will provide a good output around , if its 1400, its decent.

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## SOHEIL

Poor Israeli parts delay Arjun Mk-II


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## Badbadman

View attachment 14944

User trials of Main Battle Tank, Arjun MK-II equipped with almost 75 new improved technologies and some other modified features as compared to Mark-I version were completed in Rajasthan last year. MK-II is heavier than Mk-I but has more speed and maneuverability as compared to lighter counterparts currently in service with Army.
Amongst the features which have been modified in MK-II version of Arjun vis-a-vis its Mk-I version are night vision capabilities with thermal imaging system for detecting all kinds of missiles, Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) providing greater protection to crew and tank, mine ploughs, ability to fire Anti-tank missile with 120 mm main gun, Advanced Air Defense gun capable of shooting down Helicopters with a 360 degree coverage, Automatic Target Tracking (ATT) lending a greater accuracy when it comes to moving targets and superior Laser Warning and Control systems. Arjun MK-II is equipped with integrated display system capable of detecting targets, their number and location while the thermal imaging unit facilitates the tank commander to see upto half a kilometre.
View attachment 14946

Crew4 men
*Dimensions and weight*
Weight55 ~ 60 t
Length (gun forward)~ 10 m
Hull length~ 7 m
Width~ 3.8 m
Height~ 2.3 m
*Armament*
Main gun 120-mm rifled
ATGW LAHAT
Machine guns 1 x 7.62-mm, 1 x 12.7-mm
Elevation range - 9 to + 20 degrees
Traverse range 360 degrees
*Ammunition load*
Main gun?
ATGW?
Machine guns?
*Mobility*
Enginediesel
Engine power 1500 hp
Maximum road speed 58 km/h
Range ~ 500 km
*Maneuverability*
Gradient 70%
Side slope 40%
Vertical step ~ 0.9 m
Trench ~ 2.4 m
Fording ~ 1.4 m
Fording (with preparation) ~ 2.2 m

This new main battle tank is armed with a fully-stabilized 120-mm rifled gun, which is loaded manually. A rifled gun of such caliber is used only on the British Challenger 2 MBT. This gun is more accurate at long range comparing with smoothbore guns. It is claimed that during trials this new Indian tank outgunned both the T-72M and T-90. The Arjun Mk.2 is also compatible with Israeli LAHAT anti-tank guided missiles. Missiles are launched in the same manner as ordinary projectiles. This new main battle tank is fitted with advanced thermal imaging and panoramic sights, and now has a hunter-killer capability. Fire control system of the new tank should have a hit probability over 90%, when firing on the move. The new tank also has improved communication systems and new navigation system. Secondary armament consists of coaxial 7.62-mm machine gun and a roof-mounted remotely controlled weapon station, armed with a 12.7-mm heavy machine gun.





 
Due to it's weight the Arjun Mk.2 can not be airlifted by the Indian Il-76 heavy transport aircraft. It can be carried only by Boeing C-17 Globemaster III. Indian Air Force ordered 10 of these aircraft. Deliveries should be completed in 2014.
Arjun Mk.2 has Battle Field Management System (BFMS) that enables the tank to get targeting feeds from UAV‘s and Helicopters, which provides the Arjun Mk.2 tank crew with greater awareness of their surroundings and better understanding of the battle zone. This will lead to improvement in coordinating with other Friendly tanks in the zone and also avoid Friendly kills. It also gives information regarding enemy tank movement along with their troops and help navigate terrain in the battle zone. The Self-Diagnostic System (SDS) added to Arjun Mk.2 is a health monitoring system, that not only tells the tank crew if it is having any problem but also point out the trouble area. It is also important if the tank has taken multiple hits from different position and from different ammunition. After a self-diagnose Tank crew will know exact damage inflicted on the Tank. Arjun Mk.2 will also get and improved Air-conditioning system for the crew, which will be powered from an APU drawing its power from the Main engine of the Tank. This will enable the tank crew to operate in higher temperature of desert heat without discomfort to the tank crew. Arjun Mk.1 already has hardened electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer without requiring any Air-conditioning system.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Gessler

A thermobaric warhead 120mm round has been developed for Arjun -



> Lt Gen SH Kulkarni, AVSM, VSM, DG Mechanised Forces, visited Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE), Chandipur, on 2 December 2013. He was briefed about various test and evaluation activities of PXE, particulars pertaining to tank ammunition and armour. Live performance of Arjun thermobaric ammunition was also demonstrated to the visiting dignitary.



http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2014/feb_14.pdf

Thanks to *Kunal Biswas*

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

desert warrior said:


>

















That "box" has a new design now....

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> That "box" has a new design now....


That RCWS looks bloody ghastly. It was said a foreign RCWS was going to be picked soon, I so hope this pans out, it ruins the entire tank for me.

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> That RCWS looks bloody ghastly. It was said a foreign RCWS was going to be picked soon, I so hope this pans out, it ruins the entire tank for me.




Im with you Abingdonboy. It's too big!!


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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Im with you Abingdonboy. It's too big!!


Exactly, it sticks out in the silhouette of the beast and is FAR too bulky.


----------



## IND151

It seems that finally they have solved issue of exposed right side of turret.


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## GURU DUTT

IND151 said:


> It seems that finally they have solved issue of exposed right side of turret.


samjha nahi bhai ji please elobrate your point


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## IND151

GURU DUTT said:


> samjha nahi bhai ji please elobrate your point








See the right side of the turret (front).

It is exposed as it houses a box not ERA.

Now see the right side of the turret in this photo.

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## GURU DUTT

IND151 said:


> View attachment 16033
> 
> 
> See the right side of the turret (front).
> 
> It is exposed as it houses a box not ERA.
> 
> Now see the right side of the turret in this photo.
> 
> View attachment 16034


ya i got that earlier it used to house a radra but this new picture seem to suggest that instead of that boxy shape they have gone for more ERA looking aerodynamik shape for the radar cover what do you think it is


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## Gessler



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## Water Car Engineer



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## thesolar65

Clipping of The New Indian Express-Bhubaneswar, 07.02.2014 :readwhere

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## RPK



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## kurup

RPK said:


>



This is MK1 not MK2 .


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Dandpatta

Water Car Engineer said:


>



What's that gunny bag thingy at the rear of the tank ? Anyone with studied guesses?


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## Water Car Engineer

Dandpatta said:


> What's that gunny bag thingy at the rear of the tank ? Anyone with studied guesses?




DRDO scientist is in there. Caught being naughty.

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## Indischer

Water Car Engineer said:


> DRDO scientist is in there. Caught being naughty.



LOL...Good one.

That boxy IR jammer which stuck out on the right side of the turret seems to have been replaced by ERA plates for the Arjun on display at Defexpo. Any updates on this? as in, are the plates fixed over the jammer or is the jammer removed altogether?


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## acetophenol

Dandpatta said:


> What's that gunny bag thingy at the rear of the tank ? Anyone with studied guesses?


That one lacks the RCWS,and may be its to simulate the weight of RCWS


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## Dandpatta

Sorry to pose ignorance here but what happens to the driver's head if the turret moves in any direction?* Isn't the driver's lookout position far too closer to the turret? *


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## NKVD



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## IND151

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...hoDQAw&usg=AFQjCNGPGYf_uqSaIrREHyrSaCh5L0OcXA


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## atatwolf

Arjunk is not even ready. Kind of weird they are making an update for a tank that is not even ready.


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## GURU DUTT

Dandpatta said:


> What's that gunny bag thingy at the rear of the tank ? Anyone with studied guesses?


looks like camo nets to me


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## Gessler

atatwolf said:


> Arjunk is not even ready. Kind of weird they are making an update for a tank that is not even ready.



Foolish dumbass. Give me a source that says Arjun Mk-1 is not ready.


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## Dazzler

A few observations...

* it weighs a whooping 68 ton with a 1400hp engine, movement in desert may prove difficult. 

* ERA modules are exact same as K-5 not Relikt, bought of the shelf.

* The LAHAT guidance unit is mounted at the front turret, asking enemy shell come and disable me

* The composite cover seen on LAHAT guidance unit seems a good move, but ceveat is that one side has ERAm the other side has composite, ERA exlplosion will hamper composite module

* The RCWS mounted in the center, restricting gunner's/ commander's LOS (line of sight)

* The apfsds is the same as ever...

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## Bullet500

atatwolf said:


> Arjunk is not even ready. Kind of weird they are making an update for a tank that is not even ready.


thank you for your valuable insight...take a print out of alkhali make a batti and you know what to do with it...

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## kingdurgaking

You bought the title with your knowledge buddy?? Really childish arguments... Next response from you will be prove me.. We know how to prove the same.. you will compare the same with AK with OT arguments in between... drags and fights.. I know it is not worth to prove the same.. In first case if you have done some Research you will not end up doing the same ... Atleast remove the LOS comment really not worth for the title you hold



Dazzler said:


> A few observations...
> 
> * it weighs a whooping 68 ton with a 1400hp engine, movement in desert may prove difficult.
> 
> * ERA modules are exact same as K-5 not Relikt, bought of the shelf.
> 
> * The LAHAT guidance unit is mounted at the front turret, asking enemy shell come and disable me
> 
> * The composite cover seen on LAHAT guidance unit seems a good move, but ceveat is that one side has ERAm the other side has composite, ERA exlplosion will hamper composite module
> 
> * The RCWS mounted in the center, restricting gunner's/ commander's LOS (line of sight)
> 
> * The apfsds is the same as ever...


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## Dazzler

kingdurgaking said:


> You bought the title with your knowledge buddy?? Really childish arguments... Next response from you will be prove me.. We know how to prove the same.. you will compare the same with AK with OT arguments in between... drags and fights.. I know it is not worth to prove the same.. In first case if you have done some Research you will not end up doing the same ... Atleast remove the LOS comment really not worth for the title you hold




dragging in unnecessary comparison is not my domain. 

DRDO is not addressing some fndamental issues with the basic design, every improvement comes with a bundle of flaws with it. Seeing is believing, just see the pics.


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## Gessler

Dazzler said:


>



This picture is an APFSDS round made by Mahindra Defence. Army uses OFB-built ones.


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## Dazzler

Gessler said:


> This picture is an APFSDS round made by Mahindra Defence. Army uses OFB-built ones.



Seems lke they copied the design, L/D ratio and sabot from OFB MK-II round.


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## Gessler

Dazzler said:


> Seems lke they copied the design, L/D ratio and sabot from OFB MK-II round.



Maybe they outsourced production to Mahindra Defence.


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## Dazzler

kingdurgaking said:


> you know pics dont speak for themselves.. a picture can bring lot of hypothesis which has currently happened to you.. how do you know there is flaw?? just by seeing pictures... are you oracle?



learn to speak in a proper manner first, post reported !


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## kingdurgaking

Dazzler said:


> learn to speak in a proper manner first, post reported !


I believe i spoke the universal understanding on the pictures (i.e.) pictures inference merely bring hypothesis ... It means you can bring 1000+ logical conclusions from that.. In any way i am not there to provoke you.. I am just asking the explanation of your expertise on that..which i mean is not an offensive any way.... but a mere logical conclusion of our understanding for better arguments in the future


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## Dazzler

kingdurgaking said:


> I believe i spoke the universal understanding on the pictures (i.e.) pictures inference merely bring hypothesis ... It means you can bring 1000+ logical conclusions from that.. In any way i am not there to provoke you.. I am just asking the explanation of your expertise on that..which i mean is not an offensive any way.... but a mere logical conclusion of our understanding for better arguments in the future



all my observations root from the pics of mk 2 shown here, its evident for any person who has general knowhow on mbt/ armour basics and understands how they work. No rocket science at all.

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## Dazzler

from the pic posted, things are visible.

* The armour cover for LAHAT guidance unit has a hole, this signifies that it is not a composite armour module block, rather just a hollow metal cover so protection from front against a apfsds or even a HEAT round is still questionable.

* ERA is directly behind the cover, though it offers good side protection but a shell hitting ERA module will end up in an explosion, which means, the blast on impact will also damage the LAHAT cover, hence, exposing the guidance unit.

* Front protection on the right side is same as before, exposing not only the commander's sight, but also ATGM sight, a bad decision.

* RCWS placed in the center, blocking the LOS of gunner, its never placed at the center but either at the right or left or even at the back.

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## Badbadman

Dazzler said:


> A few observations...
> 
> * it weighs a whooping 68 ton with a 1400hp engine, movement in desert may prove difficult.
> 
> * ERA modules are exact same as K-5 not Relikt, bought of the shelf.
> 
> * The LAHAT guidance unit is mounted at the front turret, asking enemy shell come and disable me
> 
> * The composite cover seen on LAHAT guidance unit seems a good move, but ceveat is that one side has ERAm the other side has composite, ERA exlplosion will hamper composite module
> 
> * The RCWS mounted in the center, restricting gunner's/ commander's LOS (line of sight)
> 
> * The apfsds is the same as ever...


The weight is 60 tonnes not 68,
Engine is Cummins QSK-38 turbocharged 1500 hp
That RCWS is not gonna be on the final version.
A few more modifications to go before final production model.


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> A few observations...
> 
> * it weighs a whooping 68 ton with a 1400hp engine, movement in desert may prove difficult.
> 
> 
> * ERA modules are exact same as K-5 not Relikt, bought of the shelf.
> 
> * The LAHAT guidance unit is mounted at the front turret, asking enemy shell come and disable me
> 
> * The composite cover seen on LAHAT guidance unit seems a good move, but ceveat is that one side has ERAm the other side has composite, ERA exlplosion will hamper composite module
> 
> * The RCWS mounted in the center, restricting gunner's/ commander's LOS (line of sight)
> 
> * The apfsds is the same as ever...


1> The 68T combat weight IIRC is with the mine plough. Only a few tanks in a formation will be equipped with these.
Same engine but reengineered transmission to *deliver more torque* (to handle the higher weight). Top speed is not an issue because to be honest, none of these tanks will ever be used at that speed in their operational area (the desert). At most, they will be at 20-30 kmph (max) to get accurate shots on the move (in fact ~20 kmph) and the important thing is the acceleration (from rest, to move from place to place, get out of trouble) for which the powerpack (engine and transmission) has been reconfigured
2>The production Arjun MK-2 will have a homegrown ERA package from HEMRL, not K-5, which has been in development http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscri...19/&prd=fline&
_“We have developed a hybrid armour that can take care of tandem warheads and kinetic energy projectiles,” Appa Rao said._
From 2010:
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

_The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed a specialised ‘hybrid’ armour that will make tanks safer in battle and somewhat immune to anti-tank missiles. The DRDO’s Pune-based High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) has worked on the new armour.

Dr A Subanandha Rao, HEMRL Director, said the hybrid armour would take care of tandem warheads and also kinetic energy projectiles aimed at tanks in the battlefield. It would increase the survivability rate of tanks........

The hybrid armours are likely to be used on the latest Russian-origin T-90 tanks and the indigenous Arjun tanks, Rao said, adding that the Army had been involved at every stage of testing and developing._ since 2009 & even earlier.
3>Tank design is compromise at its best. Ideal situations are rarely if ever seen. If the CLGM/LAHAT module is not available 
with an integrated sight, it has to be fitted into a module that can also offer some armor protection and has clear LOS. By enclosing the sight in another module with say passive armor, it will be protected against ERA detonation from nearby panels.
4>Not completely correct, as the COAPS provides much more visibility than before and the GMS remains as is, with a clear LOS. By putting a RCWS with its own integrated thermal imager, CCD, LRF- there are effectively 3 sets of surveillance sights for 3 crew - gunner, commander, loader. This makes the Arjun one of the tanks with a collection of independent sights for battlefield surveillance. The blind spot to the left of the COAPS can be covered by the RCWS sight. 

Further, CVRDE has a RFP out for a new RCWS as well. A new design could be used for the loader and placed elsewhere. Refinements are possible.
5>Wrong

Broadsword: Upcoming modifications on the Arjun Mark II

_5. Enhanced ammunition penetrator_
_7. Resin-based CCC
Cross post from other forum.
_

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## vivINDIAN

*Arjun MK II main battle tank unveiled by Defense Research & Development Organisation of India.*
The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) of India unveils the latest generation of its local-made main battle tank, Arjun MK II at Defexpo 2014, defense exhibition in New Delhi, India. The state-of-the-art ARJUN Main Battle Tank Mk II has been designed and developed by DRDO by incorporating numerous improvements over and above the ARJUN MBT Mk I which is already in service with the Indian Army.



It is endowed with superior fire power, high mobility and excellent protection characteristics required to fulfill the challenging battlefield requirements of the 2I Th. century. ARJUN MBT Mk II manifests the latest battle tank technologies that makes it a distinct front-runner amongst the array of contemporary Main Battle Tanks of modern armies the world over.

The superior armour defeating prowess of the ARJUN MBT Mk II gives it an edge over contemporary battle tanks of the world. A computer controlled Integrated Fire Control System incorporating day-cum-night stabilized sighting system guarantees a very high first round hit probability and reduced reaction time to bring effective fire on targets.

The main armament of the Arjun MK II is a 120mm rifled gun. The Arjun MK II carries a total of 39 rounds. Secondary armament consists of 7.62-mm MAG coaxial machine gun and a roof-mounted remotely controlled weapon station, armed with a 12.7 mm caliber NSVT heavy machine gun.

The all-round protection has been enhanced with improved KANCHAN armour. ARJUN MBT Mk-ll affords a higher degree of protection amongst the present generation of battle tanks. Protection was improved by adding locally-developed explosive reactive armor modules.

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## kingdurgaking

Dazzler said:


> from the pic posted, things are visible.
> 
> * The armour cover for LAHAT guidance unit has a hole, this signifies that it is not a composite armour module block, rather just a hollow metal cover so protection from front against a apfsds or even a HEAT round is still questionable.
> 
> * ERA is directly behind the cover, though it offers good side protection but a shell hitting ERA module will end up in an explosion, which means, the blast on impact will also damage the LAHAT cover, hence, exposing the guidance unit.
> 
> * Front protection on the right side is same as before, exposing not only the commander's sight, but also ATGM sight, a bad decision.
> 
> * RCWS placed in the center, blocking the LOS of gunner, its never placed at the center but either at the right or left or even at the back.
> 
> 
> View attachment 16221



Thats why i said pics can bring hypothesis .. see in this ivew











It is clearly residing away from the block you assumed without disrupting the LOS...

Credits: Shiv arror

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## Vanamali

atatwolf said:


> Arjunk is not even ready. Kind of weird they are making an update for a tank that is not even ready.


Welcome back to this world from coma... Guys please be kind enough to understand this guy... he is just out of coma.....

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## Dazzler

kingdurgaking said:


> Thats why i said pics can bring hypothesis .. see in this ivew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is clearly residing away from the block you assumed without disrupting the LOS...
> 
> Credits: Shiv arror




thanks for a better view, nothing is changed still










vivINDIAN said:


> *Arjun MK II main battle tank unveiled by Defense Research & Development Organisation of India.*
> The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) of India unveils the latest generation of its local-made main battle tank, Arjun MK II at Defexpo 2014, defense exhibition in New Delhi, India. The state-of-the-art ARJUN Main Battle Tank Mk II has been designed and developed by DRDO by incorporating numerous improvements over and above the ARJUN MBT Mk I which is already in service with the Indian Army.
> 
> 
> 
> It is endowed with superior fire power, high mobility and excellent protection characteristics required to fulfill the challenging battlefield requirements of the 2I Th. century. ARJUN MBT Mk II manifests the latest battle tank technologies that makes it a distinct front-runner amongst the array of contemporary Main Battle Tanks of modern armies the world over.
> 
> The superior armour defeating prowess of the ARJUN MBT Mk II gives it an edge over contemporary battle tanks of the world. A computer controlled Integrated Fire Control System incorporating day-cum-night stabilized sighting system guarantees a very high first round hit probability and reduced reaction time to bring effective fire on targets.
> 
> The main armament of the Arjun MK II is a 120mm rifled gun. The Arjun MK II carries a total of 39 rounds. Secondary armament consists of 7.62-mm MAG coaxial machine gun and a roof-mounted remotely controlled weapon station, armed with a 12.7 mm caliber NSVT heavy machine gun.
> 
> The all-round protection has been enhanced with improved KANCHAN armour. ARJUN MBT Mk-ll affords a higher degree of protection amongst the present generation of battle tanks. Protection was improved by adding locally-developed explosive reactive armor modules.




kanchan composite armour is old 80s tech mate, it maybe good against small apfsds shells available to IA, not against enemy shells.

i have said so many lines on the obselescense of rifled gun in todays warfare environment that its no fun anymore. Ask Brits why they could not made something more than an average CHARM DU shell to work with their rifled L11s and L20s and they will say it was a mistake to go with rifled tech when the world switched to smooth bores.

Indian Army has messed things for themselves by sticking with rifled guns, they make it on their own but have a tiny apfsds to fire from it, till they come up with something better to fire from it, good luck to them.


Before you jump to mighty LAHAT, its basically a HEAT round made to be fired from 105 L7 series, up gunned to for Arjun;s 120 mm L11 based tech, HEAT round is not effective against composite layers or ERAs. 

Bottomline,


instead of quoting word to word posts from Aroors or other forums, try to bring something on your own.

I have nothing against IA or Arjun, in fact, Arjun is a good initiative in the right direction but it has so many issues that have been either ignored or overlooked intentionally that i feel sorry about. The worst of them is the gun+ammo issue.

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## Dazzler

weak spots again, notice the front LAHAT sight cover that i suspected form the beginning, its NOT composite plating, just a thin cover...

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## nik22

Dazzler said:


> weak spots again, notice the front LAHAT sight cover that i suspected form the beginning, its NOT composite plating, just a thin cover...



Hi, appreciate you giving feedback about Arjun. I guess it is good to have external view. But don't you think DRDO would have thought about those obvious things? There would be weakness but may be those are unavoidable compromise?


----------



## Mujraparty

Dazzler said:


> thanks for a better view, nothing is changed still
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16369
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *kanchan composite armour is old 80s tech mate,* it maybe good against small apfsds shells available to IA, not against enemy shells.
> 
> .



how do you know that ...? the brochure from defence expo 2014 says it as improved kanchan Armour .! BTW this is from an old drdo file honestly i don't know what to make of this but im pretty sure kanchan has been improved since then .






def expo brochure .





2013 source.

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## Yogi

Dazzler said:


> Before you jump to mighty LAHAT, its basically a HEAT round made to be fired from 105 L7 series, up gunned to for Arjun;s 120 mm L11 based tech, HEAT round is not effective against composite layers or ERAs.



If i m not wrong then LAHAT can be fired in Top Down mode as well...


----------



## Mujraparty

self delete im gettin errors...


----------



## Dazzler

eowyn said:


> how do you know that ...? the brochure from defence expo 2014 says it as improved kanchan Armour .! BTW this is from an old drdo file honestly i don't know what to make of this but im pretty sure kanchan has been improved since then .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> def expo brochure .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2013 source.



its logical to think that kanchan must have seen two or even three cycles of improvement by now. Its good development IMO. Not only IA must put it in Arjun but must also do it to their t-90s, the t-72B level composite armour that was exported by Russians was mediocre export only model which may not be of good use in modern battlefield. Russians are clever businessmen known to export inferior stuff, better put kanchan in t-90s too.

Whats more important is DRDO to address the minor (one side protection, other side vacant) issue and get rid of rifled gun that is restricting Arjun's true potential. 

No matter how well protected your tank is, if it cant fire decent penetrators, its useless in the battlefield.

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## Gessler

Dazzler said:


> better put kanchan in t-90s too.



T-90 Bhishma already has Kanchan armor.


----------



## Dazzler

Gessler said:


> T-90 Bhishma already has Kanchan armor.



how many of them, entire fleet? i heard they tested it on a few but yet to do so on all fleet?



Yogi said:


> If i m not wrong then LAHAT can be fired in Top Down mode as well...




yes it can, so does NAG and tow-2b and new BS model


----------



## IndoUS

Dazzler said:


> how many of them, entire fleet? i heard they tested it on a few but yet to do so on all fleet?



The induction of the T-90M Bhishma started back in 2009, so its been 4 years. I presume by now they must have most of the T90s with Kanchan armor.


----------



## Dazzler

IndoUS said:


> The induction of the T-90M Bhishma started back in 2009, so its been 4 years. I presume by now they must have most of the T90s with Kanchan armor.




they started replacing old composites with kachan in early S variants back in 2012, never heard anything about M though.


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## Yogi

Dazzler said:


> yes it can, so does NAG and tow-2b and new BS model



1. My post was in reference to ur argument that HEAT missile like LAHAT is ineffective against composite armour n ERA. But in top down mode even HEAT is every effective.

2. Neither NAG nor Tow2b can be fired from a tank's barrel, so they r not comparable to LAHAT.

3. LAHAT with a range of 8km is definitely a very effective n deadly weapon.


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## Dazzler

Yogi said:


> 1. My post was in reference to ur argument that HEAT missile like LAHAT is ineffective against composite armour n ERA. But in top down mode even HEAT is every effective.
> 
> 2. Neither NAG nor Tow2b can be fired from a tank's barrel, so they r not comparable to LAHAT.
> 
> 3. LAHAT with a range of 8km is definitely a very effective n deadly weapon.





i talked in general about top attack missiles in inventory on both sides, not those that can be fired by tank guns.


atgm aka heat round is usually effective against steel armour but not against composite layered armour for one reason alone, it lacks speed and penetration power, around 800-850 m per second. 

There is a misconception about top attack atgms, they do not fly high and hit the turret roof, rather, they fly in a lofted trajectory for a while and usually hit the top most part of turret IF fired from head on 0 deg angle. 

Lahat is primarily a 105mm L7 atgm round which is customized for 120mm arjun gun, in essence, to give arjun an atgm firing capability. 

It is not more effective than the invar, relfex, or kombat and others etc and suffer the same fate against a multilayered composte armour. heat rounds need to exploit weak zones to become more effective.

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## Water Car Engineer

Panoramic commander's sight. This will be used by NAMICA.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Welcome to Arjun MK2



Led Head Lights



Radar housing



Era tiles at side turret










Smoke, Thermal, Illumination Grenades





Led convoy lights







Blow off panels of isolated container bins





Commander Seat



All credits to @kunal biswas

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## Abingdonboy

MK2 TATA FCC






Commander electronic panoramic sight with, Thermal, Laser range finder, CCTV, Night vision and Gunner sight is slaved to commander sight, Upgraded version is made by IRDE under TOT





Rear convoy lights






Tank rear with camera for driver

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## Mujraparty

@Abingdonboy @Yogi @Keshav Murali
guys are these any good ..?

Ceramic armour developed by DMRL for Experimental ICV 





Armour Protection and Affordable Protection for Futuristic Combat Vehicles | Madhu | Defence Science Journal

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Dazzler

eowyn said:


> @Abingdonboy @Yogi @Keshav Murali
> guys are these any good ..?
> 
> Ceramic armour developed by DMRL for Experimental ICV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armour Protection and Affordable Protection for Futuristic Combat Vehicles | Madhu | Defence Science Journal




from the pics and data, it holds on its own against HEAT, no mention of what type of round was tested. There are several HEAT rounds available in different versions including the ATGM rounds.

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## Yogi

Dazzler said:


> from the pics and data, it holds on its own against HEAT, no mention of what type of round was tested. There are several HEAT rounds available in different versions including the ATGM rounds.



The HEAT missile was most probably Milan 2T as most test r conducted by DRDO using it.


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## kurup

*Israeli Hand in India’s New Tank*






The Arjun Mk II tank, India’s Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), is currently under development, and is expected to include a number of Israeli systems, including the ALWACS system by Elbit Systems and “LAHAT” missile by the IAI .

The Arjun Mk II will undergo five phases of user trials, out of which three have been completed, and the fourth is scheduled for May 2014, according to a publication on new indian express.

The new tank will include an advanced laser warning and countermeasures system (ALWACS) and commander’s open-architecture panoramic sight (COAPS) – both developed by Elbit Systems.

According to online sources, The ALWACS will include four E-LWS sensors that can detect, categorize and pinpoint laser sources, including rangefinders, designators, beam-riders, and infra-red illuminators. E-LWS also enables direction indication for all threats, as well as audio and visual warnings.

The system is immune to reflection, gunfire, lightning, fire and self-electro-optical operations. The other two components of ALWACS are an IR jammer, and two 8-launcher aerosol smoke screening systems. According to foreign sources, Elbit Systems has previously supplied the Indian Army with these systems for the Arjun Mk1A main battle tanks (MBT) in January 2012 (source).

Another Israeli company that helped India to develop the new tank is IMI. The company helped to improve the overall design of the tank, specifically its turret and hull for more accurate and reliable firepower, and assisted in optimizing the production line processes.

Israeli Hand in India’s New Tank | idrw.org

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## trident2010

How many Arjun II IA plan to induct?


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## Alpha1

Abingdonboy said:


> Commander electronic panoramic sight with, Thermal, Laser range finder, CCTV, Night vision and Gunner sight is slaved to commander sight, Upgraded version is made by IRDE under TOT


looks exposed (out side the turret) 
can somebody tell me the details on the sensors and , sights which are located outside the turret?


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## kurup

*Missile Testing on Arjun MK II May be Delayed*






India’s indigenous Main Battle Tank, the Arjun MK-II may have its missile testing runs delayed for up to a year with some of the LAHAT missiles procured from Isreal Aerospace Industries misfiring during the end-user test runs conducted recently.

Director of the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment P Sivakumar told Express on Friday that with two of the Laser Homing Attack Missiles misfiring during tests, further tests with the tank could be held up until next summer if IAI is unable to deliver missiles conforming to the requirements of the Indian Army by this summer.

“Two missiles misfired during the test runs earlier this year. With end-user regulations calling for mandatory tests during summer, IAI may not be able to deliver corrected missiles during this summer. If that happens, further missile tests will be carried out only next summer,” he pointed out. The Laser Homing Missile capability is one of the 19 major upgrades in the MK-II.

With imported components playing spoilsport in CVRDE’s flagship project and comprising almost 60 per cent of the MBT, Sivakumar responded to a query on higher levels of indigenisation in the MK-II by pointing out that the small number of units ordered by the end user made it very difficult to reduce the percentage of imported components in the tank.

“The economics involved make it very difficult for us to incorporate a higher level of indigenisation. If the order is increased to 400 units from 120, the indigenisation level could be brought up to 70 per cent,” he stated.

But the CVRDE has also embarked on a `380 crore project for a completely Indian-made power pack for Futuristic Main Battle Tanks. The FMBT power pack will pack a power output of 1,500 hp and is expected to be in production by 2022.

“We have brought out the first specifications and completed the feasibility study. We will be developing the technology for the project along with other partners like the DRDO, IIT-Chennai, Ashok Leyland etc,” he said.

The Arjun MK-II has already completed three of the five user trials required to be undergone by the prototype.

Missile Testing on Arjun MK II May be Delayed | idrw.org

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## kurup

* DRDO Seeks Additional Diehl Track System 570 Z0 for Arjun MBT Mk-2 As Trials Progress *




_Arjun Mk-2 tracks at DefExpo 2014_

DRDO has invited bids for Diehl Track System 570 Z0 for fitment on 5 Arjun MBT Mk-2 tanks.

Diehl, a German defense equipment manufacturer, produces chains and drive components for a wide range of military vehicles worldwide including the 70-ton Leopard 2 MBT and Arjun Mk-1 MBT.

Diehl tracks fitted on Arjun Mk-1 are now being manufactured by L&T. (The tracks on a tank have limited life and need to be periodically replaced.)

Arjun Mk-2 is reportedly undergoing 5 phase user acceptance trials, of which three phases have already been completed.

Improvements suggested in each phase are being implemented before the start of the subsequent phase.

The concluding fourth and fifth phases of user trials will begin in May 2014.

In the fourth phase the tank would be tested for obstacle crossing and medium fording (water) capabilities.

There are 89 improvements being undertaken on the Mk II tank, out of which 74 are related to equipment fitted on the tank and the remaining 15 are other improvements such as ammunition development.

So far the prototype tank has covered over 5,000 km as part of the DRDO and user trials.

The Indian Army has already placed orders on Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, Chennai for 124 Arjun Mark-II tanks.

The additional 124 MBTs would help the Army to raise two more regiments of the indigenous tanks.

Production of the first batch of Arjun Mark-II MBTs is likely to start by 2015.

Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: DRDO Seeks Additional Diehl Track System 570 Z0 for Arjun MBT Mk-2 As Trials Progress


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

kurup said:


> * DRDO Seeks Additional Diehl Track System 570 Z0 for Arjun MBT Mk-2 As Trials Progress *
> 
> 
> _A_
> Arjun Mk-2 is reportedly undergoing 5 phase user acceptance trials, of which three phases have already been completed.



So many fu**king trials. Decades of trials, improvements retrials and in the end what you get is paltry order of 128 tanks. On other hand we have IAs beloved t90, never tested in India and got an order of 1600 tanks, WTF!! and now IA wants DRDO to solve the problems t90 is facing. .


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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> So many fu**king trials. Decades of trials, improvements retrials and in the end what you get is paltry order of 128 tanks. On other hand we have IAs beloved t90, never tested in India and got an order of 1600 tanks, WTF!! and now IA wants DRDO to solve the problems t90 is facing. .



lol...

Pakistan already has 500 Al Khalids and order for 600 more Al Khalid-1 is underway (over 100 Al Khalid-1s already delivered..and other 500 on the way)...

Over-all, Pakistan land forces are going for 1100 to 1400 Al Khalid tanks...

Pretty awesome firepower.

I thinks India did the right thing by buying T-90s from Russia. Otherwise, the armor disadvantage would have been far more greater for india than it currently is.

It is very heart-warming to see Pakistan successfully putting such a great military prowess on battle-field...


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## Bullet500

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> lol...
> 
> Pakistan already has 500 Al Khalids and order for 600 more Al Khalid-1 is underway (over 100 Al Khalid-1s already delivered..and other 500 on the way)...
> 
> Over-all, Pakistan land forces are going for 1100 to 1400 Al Khalid tanks...
> 
> Pretty awesome firepower.
> 
> I thinks India did the right thing by buying T-90s from Russia. Otherwise, the armor disadvantage would have been far more greater for india than it currently is.
> 
> It is very heart-warming to see Pakistan successfully putting such a great military prowess on battle-field...



"Armor Disadvantage" Do you mean Alkhalid is better than T90?


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## Gessler

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> buying T-90s from Russia. Otherwise, the armor disadvantage



We don't buy T-90 from Russia, we buy the license and build it here. BTW, it's good you bought Al-khalid
from China otherwise you wouldn't have an army worth mentioning.

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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Bullet500 said:


> "Armor Disadvantage" Do you mean Alkhalid is better than T90?



No, I didn't mean that. However it is true though. Even basic Al Khalid is better than T90...and today, Pakistan has Al Khalid-1, not just basic Al Khalid. Before you go about disputing my claim, visit the thread where senior members discussed Pakistani tanks and their comparison to other modern tanks. In that thread, senior Russian members themselves accept that Al Khalid is slightly superior to T90...

Moreover, over-all, Pakistan land forces have an advantage over india when it comes to artillery, armor sector etc. Once Bofors come in, and Arjuns are deployed in large numbers, then the gap will narrow...but as of now, Pakistani strike forces will "enjoy" fighting a ground war with india..but then again, there are other variables in which indians have advantage. So it is all paper talk. What happens in "real" war is something no one can predict.



Gessler said:


> We don't buy T-90 from Russia, we buy the license and build it here. BTW, it's good you bought Al-khalid
> from China otherwise you wouldn't have an army worth mentioning.



You bought T-90s from Russia. "License production" doesn't mean that the product is yours.

Al Khalid is indigenous Pakistani tank. Your crying won't do much for you. It only exposes the true character of a worthless nation.


All crying and bitching while very little to show.

Al Khalid-1 is as Pakistani and Arjun is indian. If Al Khalid is Chinese than Arjun is Srilankan.

And sadly, india STILL doesn't have an army worth mentioning 

Until a few years, your junkard ill-trained army and their junkard tanks were falling in the wells!!! 

Should I post that news to embarrass you further?

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## kbd-raaf

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> No, I didn't mean that. However it is true though. Even basic Al Khalid is better than T90...and today, Pakistan has Al Khalid-1, not just basic Al Khalid. Before you go about disputing my claim, visit the thread where senior members discussed Pakistani tanks and their comparison to other modern tanks. In that thread, senior Russian members themselves accept that Al Khalid is slightly superior to T90...
> 
> Moreover, over-all, Pakistan land forces have an advantage over india when it comes to artillery, armor sector etc. Once Bofors come in, and Arjuns are deployed in large numbers, then the gap will narrow...but as of now, Pakistani strike forces will "enjoy" fighting a ground war with india..but then again, there are other variables in which indians have advantage. So it is all paper talk. What happens in "real" war is something no one can predict.
> 
> 
> 
> You bought T-90s from Russia. "License production" doesn't mean that the product is yours.
> 
> Al Khalid is indigenous Pakistani tank. Your crying won't do much for you. It only exposes the true character of a worthless nation.
> 
> 
> All crying and bitching while very little to show.
> 
> Al Khalid-1 is as Pakistani and Arjun is indian. If Al Khalid is Chinese than Arjun is Srilankan.
> 
> And sadly, india STILL doesn't have an army worth mentioning
> 
> Until a few years, your junkard ill-trained army and their junkard tanks were falling in the wells!!!
> 
> Should I post that news to embarrass you further?



So I was thinking right, could you tell me which one of the significant parts of the JF-17 is designed by Pakistan? Significant is something which is >=1% of it's total cost.

As far as I am aware, the most significant part that's Pakistani designed is an attitude control, a glorified gyroscope, one of which I use as a paper weight on my desk  It's from an Avro Lancaster.

Also which components of the MBT2000 (Al Khalid) is Pakistani designed? None as far as I'm aware.

The Su-30MKI is more Indian than the JF-17 or the AlKhalid. You simply do not have the industrial or scientific base to design them. Obviously, being Pakistani you're going to cry yourself hoarse about how that's not true.

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## TeesraIndiotHunter

kbd-raaf said:


> *Also which components of the MBT2000 (Al Khalid) is Pakistani designed? None as far as I'm aware.*



That's the problem. You aren't aware of anything...I thought you were better than your other crying fellow bhartis who live in self-delusions while their country remain a third world shithole...

Atleast Pakistanis don't delude themselves by this "super power" bullshit that your mainstream media regularly brainwashes poor illiterate nation of yours with. "Shining India" 
*
Integrated Battle-field Management System* of Al Khalid-1 Tanks. 

Designed and developed by *GIDS, Pakistan.*







And this is just a start...but I won't spoon feed you. As I said, Al Khalid is as Pakistani as Arjun(k) is indian, if not more. Stop bitching now and accept the fact that Al Khalid has been a way more successful project than Arjun of india. Just like JF-17 project has been way more successful as compared to failure tejas.



> The Su-30MKI is more Indian than the JF-17 or the AlKhalid.



Su-30MKI is 100% a Russian project. 

Pakistan has 58% rights in JF-17s...Pakistan designed the software on JF-17 and hence Pakistan can integrated *any* weapon system on the aircraft, including nuclear weapons. Pakistani engineers and PAF officials were present in China for the earliest stages of design and development. The "F-16 influence" you see on JF-17 is nothing but design input of Pakistani engineers 

What design contribution indians did on Su-30MKI? What "right" india has no Sukhoi program? Nothing. Zilch.



> You simply do not have the industrial or scientific base to design them. Obviously, being Pakistani you're going to cry yourself hoarse about how that's not true.



I am not a bharti that will cry. It is bhartis who live in delusion and always cry like little loonies, while their country lack even basic toilets 

Yes, Pakistan's scientific and industrial base is not up to its true potential...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

kbd-raaf said:


> So I was thinking right, could you tell me which one of the significant parts of the JF-17 is designed by Pakistan? Significant is something which is >=1% of it's total cost.
> 
> As far as I am aware, the most significant part that's Pakistani designed is an attitude control, a glorified gyroscope, one of which I use as a paper weight on my desk  It's from an Avro Lancaster.
> 
> *Also which components of the MBT2000 (Al Khalid) is Pakistani designed? None as far as I'm aware.
> 
> The Su-30MKI is more Indian than the JF-17 or the AlKhalid. *You simply do not have the industrial or scientific base to design them. Obviously, being Pakistani you're going to cry yourself hoarse about how that's not true.



How mant times will you get bashed over the same nonsense?

And about SU-30 seems u havent been following the news lately.


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## gslv mk3

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> *Integrated Battle-field Management System* of Al Khalid-1 Tanks.
> 
> Su-30MKI is 100% a Russian project.
> 
> Pakistan has 58% rights in JF-17s...Pakistan designed the software on JF-17 and hence Pakistan can integrated *any* weapon system on the aircraft, including nuclear weapons. Pakistani engineers and PAF officials were present in China for the earliest stages of design and development. The "F-16 influence" you see on JF-17 is nothing but design input of Pakistani engineers
> What design contribution indians did on Su-30MKI? What "right" india has no Sukhoi program? Nothing. Zilch.
> .



Not to forget HAL fully manufactures MKI,including AL 31 FP turbofans.

You guys designed software?Oh great..!!100% Russian project?








> *The Su-30MKI contains not only Russian, French, South African and Israeli Customer Furnished Equipment (CFE), but also a substantial percentage of Indian designed and manufactured avionics.* They took six years to develop from start to MKI. Advanced avionics were developed by DRDO under a project code named "Vetrivale" (a Tamil name for the victorious lance carried by the youthful Lord Karthikeya or Murugan, a son of Parvati and Shiva) in close collaboration with the PSUs and the IAF. Indian avionics have been received and acknowledged enthusiastically by the Russian principals.
> 
> The following are the components developed by Indian agencies:
> 
> 
> *Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE)*
> *Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)*
> *Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE*
> *IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)*
> *Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL)*
> *Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL)*
> *Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE)*
> *Multi Function Displays (MFD) - Samtel/DARE*
> 
> 
> The 32-bit Mission Computer performs mission-oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration-cum-redundancy management and in-flight systems self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for the mission computer's software. The other DARE-developed product, the* Tarang Mk2 (Tranquil) radar warning receiver*, is manufactured by state-owned BEL at its Bangalore facility.
> 
> These avionics equipment have also been certified for their airworthiness in meeting the demanding standards of Russian military aviation. The cumulative value of such indigenous avionic equipment is estimated to exceed Rs. 250 lakhs per aircraft. Since the core avionics were developed by a single agency (DRDO) - they have significant commonality of hardware and software amongst them using a modular approach to design. This obviously results in major cost and time savings in development; it also benefits the user in maintenance and spares inventories.
> 
> The DRDO has gone a step further and come out with a new design of the *Core Avionics Computer (CAC) *which can be used with a single module adaptation across many other aircraft platforms. Thus the CAC which is derived from the computers designed for the Su-30MKI will now be the centre piece of the avionics upgrades for the MiG-27 and Jaguar aircraft as well. The CAC was demonstrated by DRDO at the Aero India exhibition at Yelahanka and attracted a good deal of international attention. Taken together with the systems already developed indigenously for the LCA (such as the Digital Flight Control Computer and HUD), clearly Indian avionics have a significant export potential in the burgeoning global market for avionics modernisation.



Now for JF 17....

Even IFF,RWR is imported!!!



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> . It only exposes the true character of a worthless nation.
> 
> All crying and bitching while very little to show.



If you call a country like India,a space faring nuclear power as 'worthless,what will you call your own country....????



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> That's the problem. You aren't aware of anything...I thought you were better than your other crying fellow bhartis who live in self-delusions while their country remain a third world shithole...
> 
> Atleast Pakistanis don't delude themselves by this "super power" bullshit that your mainstream media regularly brainwashes poor illiterate nation of yours with. "Shining India"



For the 'third world' tag,you too have it.And for 'poor illiterate' tag,India has more literacy & GDP per capita than your country.

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## laltaputu

Arjun MKII with ALWCS and MWS

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## Gessler

Credits to *Kunal Biswas*

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## TimeToScoot

@TeesraIndiotHunter 

You consistently make a fool of yourself on this forum. You folks cannot even build a basic satellite on your own. Before learning to run (building tanks and aircraft) you'll first have to learn how to crawl (building satellites). 

Lagging behind: 2040 – Pakistan’s space od[d]yssey – The Express Tribune
You plan to achieve in the 2040s what India achieved in the late 80s in space. If you're so good why can't you build a simple satellite? India has had > 100 space missions so far. How many have you had? And yet you make tall delusional claims.

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## he-man

TimeToScoot said:


> @TeesraIndiotHunter
> 
> You consistently make a fool of yourself on this forum. You folks cannot even build a basic satellite on your own. Before learning to run (building tanks and aircraft) you'll first have to learn how to crawl (building satellites).
> 
> Lagging behind: 2040 – Pakistan’s space od[d]yssey – The Express Tribune
> You plan to achieve in the 2040s what India achieved in the late 80s in space. If you're so good why can't you build a simple satellite? India has had > 100 space missions so far. How many have you had? And yet you make tall delusional claims.



Man,these guys are truly shameless.

I laugh at hal/drdo all the time as i feel we are not fulfilling our full potential but these guys are gloating over the pac/suparco achievements when in reality they have done nothing worthwhile compared to hal/drdo.

On the top of that instead of asking for accountability from pac/suparco these guys are defending them!!
no wonder they are living in fool's paradise.Pakistan cannot even manufacture a good satellite,forget about launching it.
Why cannot it do that when it claims to have a missile with a range of 2500 km??Yes there is a diff in missile and a slv but modifications can be made if ur basics are correct.Sadly for pakistan when u purchase that missile from outside too,then ur basics cannot be correct,could they now??

So i would suggest to pakistani members here to introspect their own achievements before laughing at hal/drdo,that may serve pakistan better.



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> No, I didn't mean that. However it is true though. _Even basic Al Khalid is better than T90._..and today, Pakistan has Al Khalid-1, not just basic Al Khalid. Before you go about disputing my claim, visit the thread where senior members discussed Pakistani tanks and their comparison to other modern tanks. In that thread, senior Russian members themselves accept that Al Khalid is slightly superior to T90...
> 
> Moreover, over-all, Pakistan land forces have an advantage over india when it comes to artillery, armor sector etc. Once Bofors come in, and Arjuns are deployed in large numbers, then the gap will narrow...but as of now, Pakistani strike forces will "enjoy" fighting a ground war with india..but then again, there are other variables in which indians have advantage. So it is all paper talk. What happens in "real" war is something no one can predict.
> 
> 
> 
> You bought T-90s from Russia. "License production" doesn't mean that the product is yours.
> 
> _Al Khalid is indigenous Pakistani tank_. Your crying won't do much for you. It only exposes the true character of a worthless nation.
> 
> 
> All crying and bitching while very little to show.
> 
> Al Khalid-1 is as Pakistani and Arjun is indian. If Al Khalid is Chinese than Arjun is Srilankan.
> 
> And sadly, india STILL doesn't have an army worth mentioning
> 
> Until a few years, your junkard ill-trained army and their junkard tanks were falling in the wells!!!
> 
> Should I post that news to embarrass you further?

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## TimeToScoot

> I laugh at hal/drdo all the time as i feel we are not fulfilling our full potential but these guys are gloating over the pac/suparco achievements when in reality they have done nothing worthwhile compared to hal/drdo.



Actually they've done nothing compared to even a small tech start up in India. HAL/DRDO are dinosaurs compared to SUPARCO.


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## he-man

TimeToScoot said:


> Actually they've done nothing compared to even a small tech start up in India. HAL/DRDO are dinosaurs compared to SUPARCO.



even for my intense disregard for hal/drdo i think they have done exponentially better than their counterparts in pakistan

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## surya kiran

he-man said:


> even for my intense disregard for hal/drdo i think they have done exponentially better than their counterparts in pakistan


Oye paaji aisa na bola kar. You are indirectly saying somehting good about DRDO/HAL? Tusi reputation kharab hoing on the forum

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## he-man

surya kiran said:


> Oye paaji aisa na bola kar. You are indirectly saying somehting good about DRDO/HAL? Tusi reputation kharab hoing on the forum



i am not here to shore up my reputation here,,,whats correct is correct


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## surya kiran

he-man said:


> i am not here to shore up my reputation here,,,whats correct is correct


I meant your reputation as Chief Drdo Basher

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## he-man

surya kiran said:


> I meant your reputation as Chief Drdo Basher



oh yeah that will continue as i have come to know that even the seeker of astra is imported


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## indiatester

he-man said:


> oh yeah that will continue as i have come to know that even the seeker of astra is imported


Yaar.... I'm not sure if you have mentioned this already, but I do really want to know what your accomplishments are that you set such a high bar for others(read PSU's).
I have personally lead 4 hardware 0(meaning starting from scratch) projects and I understand the pains of others and give a lot of rope for the PSU's considering their environment etc.
I want to know if you have done any better.


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## he-man

indiatester said:


> Yaar.... I'm not sure if you have mentioned this already, but I do really want to know what your accomplishments are that you set such a high bar for others(read PSU's).
> I have personally lead 4 hardware 0(meaning starting from scratch) projects and I understand the pains of others and give a lot of rope for the PSU's considering their environment etc.
> I want to know if you have done any better.



i have a medical background and believe me man,,,,,,i have seen pretty bad days.
i know whats hard work and what it can accomplish.

cannot say anything else here


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## indiatester

he-man said:


> i have a medical background and believe me man,,,,,,i have seen pretty bad days.
> i know whats hard work and what it can accomplish.
> 
> cannot say anything else here


Hmm... ok.
Positive criticism is fair though. Just ensure that you don't throw out the baby along with the bath water.

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## he-man

indiatester said:


> Hmm... ok.
> Positive criticism is fair though. Just ensure that you don't throw out the baby along with the bath water.



working in a govt hospital,,i can easily point out why any psu works like it does.
people are capable enough but the work culture can never match a private entity and then there is 50 pc reservation too so..................

anyways no point discussing it.

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## Manindra

he-man said:


> oh yeah that will continue as i have come to know that even the seeker of astra is imported


Chinese PL12 AKA SD10 also use AGAT seeker.


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## he-man

Manindra said:


> Chinese PL12 AKA SD10 also use AGAT seeker.



do u really think i give a damn what chinese are upto??
well i am not.

we must develop the seeker ourselves whether chinese do or not


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## Manindra

he-man said:


> do u really think i give a damn what chinese are upto??
> well i am not.
> 
> we must develop the seeker ourselves whether chinese do or not



Yes, I know but if we expect BVRAAM with locally develop seeker then we have to wait another 20 years


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## he-man

Manindra said:


> Yes, I know but if we expect BVRAAM with locally develop seeker then we have to wait another 20 years



no we don't if we try properly,,,our guys are not so dumb as u think.

just remove the reservation from drdo and see the effects,,,,since that will never happen we ought to move towards privatisation by offering liberal terms to the corporates


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## Manindra

he-man said:


> no we don't if we try properly,,,our guys are not so dumb as u think.
> 
> just remove the reservation from drdo and see the effects,,,,since that will never happen we ought to move towards privatisation by offering liberal terms to the corporates



Problem lies in management & privitization improves nothing if our attitude changes.
Our private sector yet to make a internet browser.


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## he-man

Manindra said:


> Problem lies in management & privitization improves nothing if our attitude changes.
> Our private sector yet to make a internet browser.



i agree,we are focussed only on the shitty outsoursing in the software side without trying to make anything on our own,bloody pathetic.
and as far as manufacturing goes,,,,well its so small that its better we don't even talk about it

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## random123

What are the weakness of Arjun vs Al-Khalid???


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## shree835

A menacing ARJUN MK 2

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## shree835



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## Water Car Engineer

*120mm thermobaric + fragmentation round for Arjun being tested.*

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## Storm Force

MY LORD THAT ARJUN LOOKS POWERFUL


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## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> MY LORD THAT ARJUN LOOKS POWERFUL



one side fully exposed to enemy fire, whats so powerful about partial protection?



Water Car Engineer said:


> *120mm thermobaric + fragmentation round for Arjun being tested.*




thermobaric rounds are good for concentrations and fortifications, but not against mechanized armour. For that you need to have good penetrators. Something IA badly lacks.

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## indianwhistleblower

Sad,Arjun is not yet ready and is too heavy for our bridges to support!


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## NKVD

indianwhistleblower said:


> Sad,Arjun is not yet ready and is too heavy for our bridges to support!


Which one you are talking about mk1 or mk2


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## indianwhistleblower

NKVD said:


> Which one you are talking about mk1 or mk2


Both are heavy.


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## hari sud

Caution is the word for imports including T-90. The Russian still have not given India the technology to make T90 gun barrels. They have been very slow to supply spares.

Although Indian army has got used to T- 90, but it does not hurt to diversify sources.


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## Dazzler

hari sud said:


> Caution is the word for imports including T-90. The Russian still have not given India the technology to make T90 gun barrels. They have been very slow to supply spares.
> 
> Although Indian army has got used to T- 90, but it does not hurt to diversify sources.



IA and DRDO are heading no where having a scattered mindon most fundamental things.


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> one side fully exposed to enemy fire, whats so powerful about partial protection?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thermobaric rounds are good for concentrations and fortifications, but not against mechanized armour. For that you need to have good penetrators. Something IA badly lacks.


Good Penetrators ? You started trolling again in this thread as in some other forums these two gentleman from Poland shattered your claims:* Damain and militarysta *

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> Good Penetrators ? You started trolling again in this thread as in some other forums these two gentleman from Poland shattered your claims:* Damain and militarysta *



Its a concern on my part, for IA, its more of a reality check,arjun cant fire a decent round to kill the enemy, apfsds made in india are way below what is required. and those so called experts know less than most, particularly damian is just a book worm, not a man in the field. without a good apfsds, you entire mbt fleet is toothless against the adversary.

Russkies took IA for a ride by charging 3 times more for an obsolete round, bm-42 mango, worse, they sold you invars which are nothing more than reflex AT-11s, a HEAT is pretty good against bunkers, steal armour but cant stand against composite layers. 

Unless the ammo issue is addressed, IA must be worried for the survival their mbt fleet big time.

Arjun update: now its tracks are proving to be faulty, below quality, guess what, they are going to be "tested" with new tracks.

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## Dazzler

hari sud said:


> Caution is the word for imports including T-90. The Russian still have not given India the technology to make T90 gun barrels. They have been very slow to supply spares.
> 
> Although Indian army has got used to T- 90, but it does not hurt to diversify sources.




As a weapon system, T-90 is way better than Arjun, too less shot traps, weak zones viz a viz Arjun that has weak zones in the turret (front, side) and some places in the chassis. ERA cover is not adequate to give firm protection against apfsds rounds, may prove to be effective against HEAT. When it comes to protection, T-90 currently the best protected mbt in IA, period though it lacks in situation awareness, vetronics etc, but does have a thermal imager(ESSA sight) so night fighting is not an issue, unless the upgrade plan is still dangling. BU, even T-90 needs to fire something on the enemy. 

I believe blacklisting IMI was the worst thing in this case. Ask OFB

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## hari sud

Not really; Arjun in Indian trial beat T-90 hollow. Israelis even agreed.

I do not care what Russian want to say. It is their product. It's sales in India are threatened if Arjun is ordered in large numbers. Hence Russians are working overtime to nit pick on Arjun.

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## IbnTaymiyyah

All enmity aside this tank looks unreal.


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## Agent_47

Fan art..looks good.

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## Dazzler

hari sud said:


> Not really; Arjun in Indian trial beat T-90 hollow. Israelis even agreed.
> 
> I do not care what Russian want to say. It is their product. It's sales in India are threatened if Arjun is ordered in large numbers. Hence Russians are working overtime to nit pick on Arjun.



the trials were meant to qualify arjun's worth, not for once was arjun pitted against t-90. they were assigned a set of trials they had to pass.

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## indiatester

Dazzler said:


> the trials were meant to qualify arjun's worth, not for once was arjun pitted against t-90. they were assigned a set of trials they had to pass.


Pass they did and scored better than T-90 doesn't it count?

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> the trials were meant to qualify arjun's worth, not for once was arjun pitted against t-90. they were assigned a set of trials they had to pass.


Well this tank was pitted against T90 by IA ,so they can show their love for Natasha,fortunately it didn't work and Arjun Mk1 outgun and outrun T90. Now here is clue,if it can give a bloody nose to T90s, think about AK and T80.


> The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometres of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least 10 rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks’ ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.
> 
> *The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-9*0.


Now come out of delusion, put links and source for your claim.
BTW Just wait for few more months,a good news is on the way for Arjun Mk2 lovers.
Clue :Its about orders

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> Well this tank was pitted against T90 by IA ,so they can show their love for Natasha,fortunately it didn't work and Arjun Mk1 outgun and outrun T90. Now here is clue,if it can give a bloody nose to T90s, think about AK and T80.
> 
> Now come out of delusion, put links and source for your claim.
> BTW Just wait for few more months,a good news is on the way for Arjun Mk2 lovers.
> Clue :Its about orders





GORKHALI said:


> Well this tank was pitted against T90 by IA ,so they can show their love for Natasha,fortunately it didn't work and Arjun Mk1 outgun and outrun T90. Now here is clue,if it can give a bloody nose to T90s, think about AK and T80.
> 
> Now come out of delusion, put links and source for your claim.
> BTW Just wait for few more months,a good news is on the way for Arjun Mk2 lovers.
> Clue :Its about orders





First, read this not in haste but slowly to get things in perspective, the Army is NOT ordering more Arjuns, but looking to fit these 248 odd in a fitting role. This does not happen to a supposedly frontline main battle tank, sorry.

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 | Business Standard News

as per the source, they are looking to pit it in a "defensive" role, in the desert area, this in itself shows a lack of confidence in Arjun. They are not pitting it in stike corps. Sigh

Your hint maybe on increased numbers right, so as you ask often, what is the source?? Must be your personal vendetta. 

The results of the trials are still "officially" secret, poor media took it for victory. The fact is that Arjun struggled in atleast two trials (related to engine, failed twice, replaced in the field, passed trial and violla !!) but t-90 didnt. There is a reason why IA order for Arjun still stands at 248 odd pieces and going for more t-90s because they know which tank is more battle ready. The only department where Arjun performed well is situational awareness and fire control but isnt it well known already? What about firepower? which shells were used at what ranges? no news, because there is no good news to share.


the mk-II apfsds round length, maximum penetration values it can give is 270-300mm RHA at best ! Not even sufficient for side armour penetration, let alone frontal armour










Ever wonder why DRDO went from mk.1 to mk.2 without the tank being ordered in break even numbers (500 needed for a break even) ? Mk.1 has plenty of issues which were mostly rectified in mk.2. So you see, mk.2 is not a radical upgrade of mk.1, rather, it is arimed at "reducing" the weaknesses, short comings in mk.1 Now why on earth would IA order mk.1 when its issues are so many that it is not even funny? So here is Mk.2 with less issues, ok, what is mk.2? it is an Arjun with a whooping 60+ton weight with the same 1400hp engine that is slightly "torqued up" to overcome the T/W issue seen in mk.1, but at the expense of maximum speed, so here we have a tank with less speed than the first version, torque increment is needed to give it a higher immediate acceleration due to more weight added. 

Not to mention the repeated over heating issue in desert after 100km is still there, yet to be addressed. Mk.2 has a FCS of French origin, Savan -15, same as used on Malay PT-91M, it is a good system, reliable so a good choice here. But what about all the optics scattered on the roof?? 

I mean optics all over the place. A cursory look at the tank roof gives a funny nod as it is hastily placed all over. I can virtually go on with stuff that makes virtually no sense at all. 

Here is an image of how hastily things were just lumped over the roof, look at the RCWS, almost in the mid, inviting enemy to hit. A sight put at the back for some reason, clearly things just piled up in a hurry for a parade. Any armour guy will tell you that is not how you put RCWS and optics on an mbt, rather, you put it in bulk heads, akin to Alkhalid or Leopard or Challenger or Merkava or M1Axx, where these bulk heads contain AT LEAST two sights (daym night, TI), laser range finder, thermal imager etc. 







I hope you got the point, if not, i will explain later.

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## Dazzler

related to tracks, because current tracks cannot sustain increased weight in the field..



> March 14, 2014
> DRDO Seeks Additional Diehl Track System 570 Z0 for Arjun MBT Mk-2 As Trials Progress
> 
> DRDO has invited bids for Diehl Track System 570 Z0 *for fitment on 5 Arjun MBT Mk-2 tanks.*
> Diehl, a German defense equipment manufacturer, produces chains and drive components for a wide range of military vehicles worldwide including the 70-ton Leopard 2 MBT and Arjun Mk-1 MBT.
> Diehl tracks fitted on Arjun Mk-1 are now being manufactured by L&T. (The tracks on a tank have limited life and need to be periodically replaced.)
> Arjun Mk-2 is reportedly undergoing 5 phase user acceptance trials, of which three phases have already been completed.
> *Improvements suggested in each phase are being implemented before the start of the subsequent phase.*
> The concluding fourth and fifth phases of user trials will begin in May 2014.
> *In the fourth phase the tank would be tested for obstacle crossing and medium fording (water) capabilities.*
> There are 89 improvements being undertaken on the Mk II tank, out of which 74 are related to equipment fitted on the tank and the remaining 15 are other improvements such as ammunition development.
> So far the prototype tank has covered over 5,000 km as part of the DRDO and user trials.
> The Indian Army has already placed orders on Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, Chennai for 124 Arjun Mark-II tanks.
> The additional 124 MBTs would help the Army to raise two more regiments of the indigenous tanks.
> Production of the first batch of Arjun Mark-II MBTs is likely to start by 2015.





Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: DRDO Seeks Additional Diehl Track System 570 Z0 for Arjun MBT Mk-2 As Trials Progress

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> related to tracks, because current tracks cannot sustain increased weight in the field..



From your own link-Diehl tracks fitted on Arjun Mk-1 are now being manufactured by L&T.


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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> From your own link-Diehl tracks fitted on Arjun Mk-1 are now being manufactured by L&T.



yes, the original tracks are being manufactured but the tender is for new tracks to be fitted and qualified on mk.2 since the original ones cant handle the extra weight.


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## IND151

Dazzler said:


> related to tracks, because current tracks cannot sustain increased weight in the field..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: DRDO Seeks Additional Diehl Track System 570 Z0 for Arjun MBT Mk-2 As Trials Progress



Diehl tracks fitted on Arjun Mk-1 are now being manufactured by L&T. (The tracks on a tank have limited life and need to be periodically replaced.)

Same will happen to tracks on Mk 2.



Water Car Engineer said:


> *120mm thermobaric + fragmentation round for Arjun being tested.*



Any source for GIF?


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> First, read this not in haste but slowly to get things in perspective, *the Army is NOT ordering more Arjuns, but looking to fit these 248 odd in a fitting role*. This does not happen to a supposedly frontline main battle tank, sorry.
> 
> Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 | Business Standard News
> 
> as per the source, they are looking to pit it in a "defensive" role, in the desert area, this in itself shows a lack of confidence in Arjun. They are not pitting it in stike corps. Sigh
> 
> Your hint maybe on increased numbers right, so as you ask often, what is the source?? Must be your personal vendetta.
> 
> The results of the trials are still "officially" secret, poor media took it for victory. The fact is that Arjun struggled in atleast two trials (related to engine, failed twice, replaced in the field, passed trial and violla !!) but t-90 didnt. There is a reason why IA order for Arjun still stands at 248 odd pieces and going for more t-90s because they know which tank is more battle ready. The only department where Arjun performed well is situational awareness and fire control but isnt it well known already? What about firepower? which shells were used at what ranges? no news, because there is no good news to share.
> 
> 
> the mk-II apfsds round length, maximum penetration values it can give is 270-300mm RHA at best ! Not even sufficient for side armour penetration, let alone frontal armour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever wonder why DRDO went from mk.1 to mk.2 without the tank being ordered in break even numbers (500 needed for a break even) ? Mk.1 has plenty of issues which were mostly rectified in mk.2. So you see, mk.2 is not a radical upgrade of mk.1, rather, it is arimed at "reducing" the weaknesses, short comings in mk.1 Now why on earth would IA order mk.1 when its issues are so many that it is not even funny? So here is Mk.2 with less issues, ok, what is mk.2? it is an Arjun with a whooping 60+ton weight with the same 1400hp engine that is slightly "torqued up" to overcome the T/W issue seen in mk.1, but at the expense of maximum speed, so here we have a tank with less speed than the first version, torque increment is needed to give it a higher immediate acceleration due to more weight added.
> 
> Not to mention the repeated over heating issue in desert after 100km is still there, yet to be addressed. Mk.2 has a FCS of French origin, Savan -15, same as used on Malay PT-91M, it is a good system, reliable so a good choice here. But what about all the optics scattered on the roof??
> 
> I mean optics all over the place. A cursory look at the tank roof gives a funny nod as it is hastily placed all over. I can virtually go on with stuff that makes virtually no sense at all.
> 
> Here is an image of how hastily things were just lumped over the roof, look at the RCWS, almost in the mid, inviting enemy to hit. A sight put at the back for some reason, clearly things just piled up in a hurry for a parade. Any armour guy will tell you that is not how you put RCWS and optics on an mbt, rather, you put it in bulk heads, akin to Alkhalid or Leopard or Challenger or Merkava or M1Axx, where these bulk heads contain AT LEAST two sights (daym night, TI), laser range finder, thermal imager etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you got the point, if not, i will explain later.


First, read this not in haste but slowly to get things in perspective, *the Army is NOT ordering more Arjuns, but looking to fit these 248 odd in a fitting role*. This does not happen to a supposedly frontline main battle tank, sorry.
*Well as I said all they wanted was to show their love for Natasha which is because their know how to grease their arms. T90 suffered from multiple issue but finally sorted after DRDO intervention,today they are using lot Arjun component replacing original OEM .While 248 is not a small No.to start with as T90 are always their to fill the NOS and they already been ordered long back.Wait for few more months ,more order is coming .*
as per the source, they are looking to pit it in a "defensive" role, in the desert area, this in itself shows a lack of confidence in Arjun. They are not pitting it in stike corps..*You again started with your busted claim just like before isn't it ? 75 Armoured Unit is the only unit which was born while fighting INDO PAK war 1971 in Gadra road.Guess what this regiment was issued a task to blitzkrieg  Now even in Cold war strategy, their is no defence but all units are used for offensive.
*
The results of the trials are still "officially" secret, poor media took it for victory. The fact is that Arjun struggled in atleast two trials (related to engine, failed twice, replaced in the field, passed trial and violla !!) but t-90 didnt. There is a reason why IA order for Arjun still stands at 248 odd pieces and going for more t-90s because they know which tank is more battle ready. The only department where Arjun performed well is situational awareness and fire control but isnt it well known already? What about firepower? which shells were used at what ranges? no news, because there is no good news to share.
*So you know better than Indian journos and you got the secret reports thanks to extensive reach of ISI,now say that too.In India ,media is always looking for sensational news.*
Will answer your rest of the question

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## Dazzler

@GORKHALI 
*



Well as I said all they wanted was to show their love for Natasha which is because their know how to grease their arms. T90 suffered from multiple issue but finally sorted after DRDO intervention,today they are using lot Arjun component replacing original OEM .While 248 is not a small No.to start with as T90 are always their to fill the NOS and they already been ordered long back.Wait for few more months ,more order is coming .

Click to expand...

*
for a tank needed in numbers and a breakeven figure given as 500, 248 is merely a trial batch, its called "a weapon system not preferred by the user" mentality
*



You again started with your busted claim just like before isn't it ? 75 Armoured Unit is the only unit which was born while fighting INDO PAK war 1971 in Gadra road.Guess what this regiment was issued a task to blitzkrieg  Now even in Cold war strategy, their is no defence but all units are used for offensive.

Click to expand...

**you are the one with BS stuff without any clue and to support your baseless argument, you had to bring 71 and what not in right. READ THE LINK IT IS FROM YOUR MEDIA*



> *So you know better than Indian journos and you got the secret reports thanks to extensive reach of ISI,now say that too.In India ,media is always looking for sensational news.*



Ao you believe in journos??? NO wonder your argument is so eloquent.[/quote]

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> related to tracks, because current tracks cannot sustain increased weight in the field..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: DRDO Seeks Additional Diehl Track System 570 Z0 for Arjun MBT Mk-2 As Trials Progress


Bull shit again.It says tracks are usually get changed after some time due to rigorous trail.The same tracks are used for Leopard tanks which way heavier than Arjun Mk 1 & 2.


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> @GORKHALI
> 
> for a tank needed in numbers and a breakeven figure given as 500, 248 is merely a trial batch, its called "a weapon system not preferred by the user" mentality
> 
> *you are the one with BS stuff without any clue and to support your baseless argument, you had to bring 71 and what not in right. READ THE LINK IT IS FROM YOUR MEDIA*
> 
> 
> 
> Ao you believe in journos??? NO wonder your argument is so eloquent.



No you suspecting Indian media as it doesn't serve your purpose.Actually its way too better than HIT PR.Indian media are always their to expose DRDO and OFB in drop of a Pin,unlike Pakistan Media.
On topic:I never said Arjun doesn't have any flaws ,actually it does and some are very basic but so is Al Khalid.
*On Arjun Mk2 Flaws:*
Arjun Mk2 inherits weak spots of Arjun Mk1, mainly on turret.

First problem with Arjun is that this is a damn huge tank, it is unnececary big, which means more internal volume and more unnececary weight.

Arjun series actually for their weight, have much less internal volume protected by composite armor codenamed "Kanchan" (and no, due to nature of composite armor, it can't protect whole 360 degrees due to it's volume and weight, so in all tanks it is allways placed on front projections, and in some design also side turret projections, very rare is to add such protection for hull side projections, mostly in form of addon armor).

The basic turret design does not changed between Mk1 and Mk2, and can be used as reference.










In Arjun Mk2, problem with main sight "window" as a weak spot, had not been solved, pity, because due to a simple redesign and adding ERA there, protection would rise significantly and weak zone would be reduced. Instead however, engineers preffered to place there this radar antenna... I still ask myself, why? Much more logical would be to place this antenna on the gun mantle, or somewhere at the turret rear or rear side, antenna could be then retractable in to armor box, so it would be protected if not used.

I think that the main problem with Arjun, is the lack of logic when vehicle is designed, we rather see very crude design, with all things that was considered worthy, packed on a tank, without any second thought.

In therms of turret frontal protection, Pakistani Al Khalid is much better designed, front weak spot is reduced only to the gun mantle, main gunner sight is placed behind armor modules and through turret roof. Also turret have much better geometry when we consider that composite armor is protecting only it's front.

However just like in case of Arjun Mk2, Al Khalid have problems with ERA placement on turret, and cover is not tight. In the region the* best ERA cover and overall protection* will have *T-80UD on Pakistani side, and T-90S on Indian side.
Fire power:*
When it comes to firepower, here Al Khalid have advantage due to use of a relatively modern smoothbore gun. But this advantage should not be big, and can be limited in future by the allowed lenght of APFSDS rod when projectile is in autoloader ammunition cassettes. Al Khalid uses Chinese copy of the original T-72 AZ autoloader, so some problems can be faced in future by Pakistanis. Indians here a have a much greater comfort, however still, currently used APFSDS or Arjun Mk1 is... well this is early 1980's level of capabilities, nothing impressive these days, maybe new APFSDS will be better but still hard to say due to lack of any photos to make even simple estimations.

*In terms of other types of ammunition, here we have equality.*

However when it comes to GLATGM's, well, Al Khalid can use GLATGM's with bigger warheads, which means better penetration, but range of 9M119 or "Kombat" is 5000m, while LAHAT used by Arjun Mk2 have smaller warhead, that most likely have lesser penetration capability, but LAHAT have a range advantage up to 8000m.

Mobility here is a very interesting aspect. Both tanks have some solutions I like.

In case of Arjun, I think it was the overall best decision during design phase to choose hydrogas suspension system. Al Khalid on the other hand uses Ukrainian 6TD-2 diesel, which I really like, compact, with good HP level, reliable.

*Thanks to Damian*


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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> No you suspecting Indian media as it doesn't serve your purpose.Actually its way too better than HIT PR.Indian media are always their to expose DRDO and OFB in drop of a Pin,unlike Pakistan Media.
> On topic:I never said Arjun doesn't have any flaws ,actually it does and some are very basic but so is Al Khalid.
> *On Arjun Mk2 Flaws:*
> Arjun Mk2 inherits weak spots of Arjun Mk1, mainly on turret.
> 
> First problem with Arjun is that this is a damn huge tank, it is unnececary big, which means more internal volume and more unnececary weight.
> 
> Arjun series actually for their weight, have much less internal volume protected by composite armor codenamed "Kanchan" (and no, due to nature of composite armor, it can't protect whole 360 degrees due to it's volume and weight, so in all tanks it is allways placed on front projections, and in some design also side turret projections, very rare is to add such protection for hull side projections, mostly in form of addon armor).
> 
> The basic turret design does not changed between Mk1 and Mk2, and can be used as reference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Arjun Mk2, problem with main sight "window" as a weak spot, had not been solved, pity, because due to a simple redesign and adding ERA there, protection would rise significantly and weak zone would be reduced. Instead however, engineers preffered to place there this radar antenna... I still ask myself, why? Much more logical would be to place this antenna on the gun mantle, or somewhere at the turret rear or rear side, antenna could be then retractable in to armor box, so it would be protected if not used.
> 
> I think that the main problem with Arjun, is the lack of logic when vehicle is designed, we rather see very crude design, with all things that was considered worthy, packed on a tank, without any second thought.
> 
> In therms of turret frontal protection, Pakistani Al Khalid is much better designed, front weak spot is reduced only to the gun mantle, main gunner sight is placed behind armor modules and through turret roof. Also turret have much better geometry when we consider that composite armor is protecting only it's front.
> 
> However just like in case of Arjun Mk2, Al Khalid have problems with ERA placement on turret, and cover is not tight. In the region the* best ERA cover and overall protection* will have *T-80UD on Pakistani side, and T-90S on Indian side.
> Fire power:*
> When it comes to firepower, here Al Khalid have advantage due to use of a relatively modern smoothbore gun. But this advantage should not be big, and can be limited in future by the allowed lenght of APFSDS rod when projectile is in autoloader ammunition cassettes. Al Khalid uses Chinese copy of the original T-72 AZ autoloader, so some problems can be faced in future by Pakistanis. Indians here a have a much greater comfort, however still, currently used APFSDS or Arjun Mk1 is... well this is early 1980's level of capabilities, nothing impressive these days, maybe new APFSDS will be better but still hard to say due to lack of any photos to make even simple estimations.
> 
> *In terms of other types of ammunition, here we have equality.*
> 
> However when it comes to GLATGM's, well, Al Khalid can use GLATGM's with bigger warheads, which means better penetration, but range of 9M119 or "Kombat" is 5000m, while LAHAT used by Arjun Mk2 have smaller warhead, that most likely have lesser penetration capability, but LAHAT have a range advantage up to 8000m.
> 
> Mobility here is a very interesting aspect. Both tanks have some solutions I like.
> 
> In case of Arjun, I think it was the overall best decision during design phase to choose hydrogas suspension system. Al Khalid on the other hand uses Ukrainian 6TD-2 diesel, which I really like, compact, with good HP level, reliable.
> 
> *Thanks to Damian*



so in this post, u were supposed to answer my querries right? u ended up quoting damian while he was praising alkhalid and criticizing arjun for most of his post. should i laugh or cry, i mean, what were u happy aabout? hydrogas suspension? 

first, the pics u posted are from a mighty indian self proclaimed analyist ersakthivel, a man who has been made fun due to his inaccurate analysis (calling them analysis is a joke really) and these pics are absolute fantasies. The fornt cavity alone is so wrong, no the case with original arjun.

Rest of your post pretty much validate what i have been saying, apart of hydrogas suspension, there is nothing good about arjun as of now. An untrained eye may not see it, i guess you have that pair.

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> so in this post, u were supposed to answer my querries right? u ended up quoting damian while he was praising alkhalid and criticizing arjun for most of his post. should i laugh or cry, i mean, what were u happy aabout? hydrogas suspension?
> 
> first, the pics u posted are from a mighty indian self proclaimed analyist ersakthivel, a man who has been made fun due to his inaccurate analysis (calling them analysis is a joke really) and these pics are absolute fantasies. The fornt cavity alone is so wrong, no the case with original arjun.
> 
> Rest of your post pretty much validate what i have been saying, apart of hydrogas suspension, there is nothing good about arjun as of now. An untrained eye may not see it, i guess you have that pair.


As i said,You will never see fine prints as you never going to accept that he actually compared AL kahlid to an Chinese copy of Upgraded T72 which is not yet tested unlike T72,but he actually shown the balance overview of tanks.At the end of the day,Arjun Mk2 is not yet finalized,All they are doing is,testing on MK1.While,a jingoistic no matter what always defends his country glory ,actually a chinese glory in this case.


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## Omega007

GORKHALI said:


> As i said,You will never see fine prints as you never going to accept that he actually compared AL kahlid to an Chinese copy of Upgraded T72 which is not yet tested unlike T72,but he actually shown the balance overview of tanks.At the end of the day,Arjun Mk2 is not yet finalized,All they are doing is,testing on MK1.While,a jingoistic no matter what always defends his country glory ,actually a chinese glory in this case.




Stop wasting your time on this shit.It's the same dazzler idiot from D F I who gets his arse owned all the time there due to his nonsense trash talks.

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## GORKHALI

Omega007 said:


> Stop wasting your time on this shit.It's the same dazzler idiot from D F I who gets his arse owned all the time there due to his nonsense trash talks.


That's right mate.You must give the credit where its due,I always have the respect for Al Khalid,though its just a plane Chinese tank with Pakistan Green Paint and Ukrainian Engine but that doesn't make it invincible as it has gaps,a lot of gaps in protection,it still uses the T72 Auto loader which something PA should be worried about.Similarly Arjun Mk2 has gaps in protection too like why the placed Radar in Left side leaving tank Venerable.


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## HariPrasad

Dazzler said:


> First, read this not in haste but slowly to get things in perspective, the Army is NOT ordering more Arjuns, but looking to fit these 248 odd in a fitting role. This does not happen to a supposedly frontline main battle tank, sorry.
> 
> Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 | Business Standard News
> 
> as per the source, they are looking to pit it in a "defensive" role, in the desert area, this in itself shows a lack of confidence in Arjun. They are not pitting it in stike corps. Sigh
> 
> Your hint maybe on increased numbers right, so as you ask often, what is the source?? Must be your personal vendetta.
> 
> The results of the trials are still "officially" secret, poor media took it for victory. The fact is that Arjun struggled in atleast two trials (related to engine, failed twice, replaced in the field, passed trial and violla !!) but t-90 didnt. There is a reason why IA order for Arjun still stands at 248 odd pieces and going for more t-90s because they know which tank is more battle ready. The only department where Arjun performed well is situational awareness and fire control but isnt it well known already? What about firepower? which shells were used at what ranges? no news, because there is no good news to share.
> 
> 
> the mk-II apfsds round length, maximum penetration values it can give is 270-300mm RHA at best ! Not even sufficient for side armour penetration, let alone frontal armour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever wonder why DRDO went from mk.1 to mk.2 without the tank being ordered in break even numbers (500 needed for a break even) ? Mk.1 has plenty of issues which were mostly rectified in mk.2. So you see, mk.2 is not a radical upgrade of mk.1, rather, it is arimed at "reducing" the weaknesses, short comings in mk.1 Now why on earth would IA order mk.1 when its issues are so many that it is not even funny? So here is Mk.2 with less issues, ok, what is mk.2? it is an Arjun with a whooping 60+ton weight with the same 1400hp engine that is slightly "torqued up" to overcome the T/W issue seen in mk.1, but at the expense of maximum speed, so here we have a tank with less speed than the first version, torque increment is needed to give it a higher immediate acceleration due to more weight added.
> 
> Not to mention the repeated over heating issue in desert after 100km is still there, yet to be addressed. Mk.2 has a FCS of French origin, Savan -15, same as used on Malay PT-91M, it is a good system, reliable so a good choice here. But what about all the optics scattered on the roof??
> 
> I mean optics all over the place. A cursory look at the tank roof gives a funny nod as it is hastily placed all over. I can virtually go on with stuff that makes virtually no sense at all.
> 
> Here is an image of how hastily things were just lumped over the roof, look at the RCWS, almost in the mid, inviting enemy to hit. A sight put at the back for some reason, clearly things just piled up in a hurry for a parade. Any armour guy will tell you that is not how you put RCWS and optics on an mbt, rather, you put it in bulk heads, akin to Alkhalid or Leopard or Challenger or Merkava or M1Axx, where these bulk heads contain AT LEAST two sights (daym night, TI), laser range finder, thermal imager etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you got the point, if not, i will explain later.




Post is erroneous primarily on many counts. Arjun has a very powerful Gun and Armour.

Army not giving order is because of the fact that this order will take 3 to 4 years to be executed. Meanwhile Indian army may suggest new changes and possibly weight reduction by few tons. Even Indian air force order Apache just 30 in Number. Indian arm forces follow a policy of initially ordering the equipment in small number use it, test it and than increase the order with suitable changes.


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## Omega007

GORKHALI said:


> As i said,You will never see fine prints as you never going to accept that he actually compared AL kahlid to an Chinese copy of Upgraded T72 which is not yet tested unlike T72,but he actually shown the balance overview of tanks.At the end of the day,Arjun Mk2 is not yet finalized,All they are doing is,testing on MK1.While,a jingoistic no matter what always defends his country glory ,actually a chinese glory in this case.




Stop wasting your time on this shit.It's the same dazzler idiot from D F I who gets his arse owned all the time there due to his nonsense trash talks.

And @GORKHALI ,bro the GMS window is indeed a weak spot but such a grave one as it's made out to be.You see,the LOS thickness behind the GMS window is about 480-500 mm and not 380mm.Both Damian and Dejawolf made the same mistake while estimating the armor thickness because they based all their values on the Leopard 2A4.
The problem with this calculation is that while the LOS of frontal turret armor of the A4 is ~800mm at 0 degree from turret centerline axis,the same for Arjun MkI is ~950mm or so according to the measurements done by Kunal and Sayare in the Defexpo 14.

Now behind the GMS window,there is NO composite armor but a solid 480-500mm block of triple hardened steel-titanium alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6,meaning a 1 cm of that material would provide same level of protection as a 1.6 cm of RHA plate.So the actual protection value of the armor behind the GMS is pretty much comparable to the other sections of the front turret against FSAPDS penetrators (of course protection against shaped charge jets would be much lower).

Regarding the 120mm FSAPDS ammo,it was developed in the mid 80s and hasn't been changed ever since,of course it's inferior to the Naiza rounds.A quad segmented long rod FSAPDS penetrator is currently under development (presumably based on the Israeli M 338,but I don't know how true is that).

By the way,this thread is about Arjun MkII,I just don't understand why do people always have to bring in the Al Khalid into the discussion??To be fair,AK 1 is a mediocre tank with much more serious design drawbacks than Arjun.But that's not the topic of discussion here.

And lastly,I've noticed that the Indian members are generally much more quick and less adamant when it comes to accepting and criticising the design flaws of Indian made hardwares but same can not be told about our Pakistani counterparts.

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## Omega007

GORKHALI said:


> That's right mate.You must give the credit where its due,I always have the respect for Al Khalid,though its just a plane Chinese tank with Pakistan Green Paint and Ukrainian Engine but that doesn't make it invincible as it has gaps,a lot of gaps in protection,it still uses the T72 Auto loader which something PA should be worried about.Similarly Arjun Mk2 has gaps in protection too like why the placed Radar in Left side leaving tank Venerable.



Indeed Arjun has got some serious gaps when it comes to mounting of add on armor modules on the right side of front turret (not the left).The decision of mounting a BFSR was an ingenious one,but chose the worst area possible as the mounting place.It's prohibiting them from mounting ERA and also leaving the BFSR vulnerable to front attacks!! They should've placed it on the turret roof on a retractable mount in the bustle area,that would've been the ideal place,hope they rectify this serious design flaw sooner than later.

But after saying all this things,I was talking about the base armor protection of Arjun tanks,not about the add ons.In terms of base armor protection,Arjun has got a clear and decisive advantage over AK.
If we are to believe the words of Andrey Tarashenko from KMDB,the los of front turret base armor of AK 1 is no greater than 620mm at 0 degree,where as for Arjun it's close to about ~950mm.
Besides,the AK uses totally modular armor blocks on the front turret.Now it has got the advantage of quick changing of damaged modules but it comes at a price,a totally modular armor won't give you as much protection,especially against repeated attacks as would a solid semi modular structure provide.The Israelis felt it very badly with their Merkava Mk4s.And besides another problem with modular armor package is that you have to leave some gaps in the armor as places for mounting bolts and thus the amount of composite material you can stuff into has to be reduced.That's why you will see most of the premium tank building nations including USA and Germany sticking to semi modular construction rather than going for all out modularity.

Besides,AK doesn't have composite armor on the turret sides,where as the crew compartment of Arjun has side protection with 400mm base armor.

AK don't have isolated ammunition compartments,it lacks ballistic skirts.It's frontal hull protection is also poor compared to Arjun.

The gun on AK isn't really better either since they are still using the old L/48 2A46!!

Yet somehow our Arjun becomes "Arjunk" and the AK becomes the "Wounder waffe"!!I wonder how.

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## GORKHALI

Omega007 said:


> Stop wasting your time on this shit.It's the same dazzler idiot from D F I who gets his arse owned all the time there due to his nonsense trash talks.
> 
> And @GORKHALI ,bro the GMS window is indeed a weak spot but such a grave one as it's made out to be.You see,the LOS thickness behind the GMS window is about 480-500 mm and not 380mm.Both Damian and Dejawolf made the same mistake while estimating the armor thickness because they based all their values on the Leopard 2A4.
> The problem with this calculation is that while the LOS of frontal turret armor of the A4 is ~800mm at 0 degree from turret centerline axis,the same for Arjun MkI is ~950mm or so according to the measurements done by Kunal and Sayare in the Defexpo 14.
> 
> Now behind the GMS window,there is NO composite armor but a solid 480-500mm block of triple hardened steel-titanium alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6,meaning a 1 cm of that material would provide same level of protection as a 1.6 cm of RHA plate.So the actual protection value of the armor behind the GMS is pretty much comparable to the other sections of the front turret against FSAPDS penetrators (of course protection against shaped charge jets would be much lower).
> 
> Regarding the 120mm FSAPDS ammo,it was developed in the mid 80s and hasn't been changed ever since,of course it's inferior to the Naiza rounds.A quad segmented long rod FSAPDS penetrator is currently under development (presumably based on the Israeli M 338,but I don't know how true is that).
> 
> By the way,this thread is about Arjun MkII,I just don't understand why do people always have to bring in the Al Khalid into the discussion??To be fair,AK 1 is a mediocre tank with much more serious design drawbacks than Arjun.But that's not the topic of discussion here.
> 
> And lastly,I've noticed that the Indian members are generally much more quick and less adamant when it comes to accepting and criticizing the design flaws of Indian made hardware but same can not be told about our Pakistani counterparts.


Much of the Kanchan armour information is still classified,and If IA wants all its tanks to get upgarded to Kanchan Armour,there must be something good about it else IA never going to accept anything so easily.

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## Omega007

GORKHALI said:


> Much of the Kanchan armour information is still classified,and If IA wants all its tanks to get upgarded to Kanchan Armour,there must be something good about it else IA never going to accept anything so easily.



Exactly.We know virtually nothing about the Kanchan and how it has evolved through out all these years.
By the way,as per information available to me,the Indian manufactured T 90S has got higher ground pressure from the Russian supplied ones.May be this means that some sort of heavy materials has been included the Kanchan armor arrays.

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## Gessler

Speaking of armor, not sure if this was mentioned before in this forum -









Omega007 said:


> Exactly.We know virtually nothing about the Kanchan and how it has evolved through out all these years.
> By the way,as per information available to me,the Indian manufactured T 90S has got higher ground pressure from the Russian supplied ones.May be this means that some sort of heavy materials has been included the Kanchan armor arrays.



Indian T-90 with Kanchan is said to be the heaviest version of T-90 in the world?

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## Omega007

Gessler said:


> Speaking of armor, not sure if this was mentioned before in this forum -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian T-90 with Kanchan is said to be the heaviest version of T-90 in the world?



So I hear.By the way,when it comes to hull design and protection,Arjun scores above most other tanks;dwarfed only by the M1 Abrams.I thought it's worth mentioning.

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## Nitin Saini

Arjun is good enough for india, we support and more it improves..
Army still keeps this attitude, we will remain dependent on imports...Top brass in army, seems too keen on filling their pockets by means of def deals then really concerned about indian defence in long run. why wasn't T90 tested on thar deserts? In war losses are reality, if we have a indigenous machine we will be able to recover our loses much quicker and take any action without fear of military supplier sanctions. even T90 and Su30 are dependent on russian in one way or another, we never recieved 100 TOT for them.
Lesson from history: Soviets and Americans didn't defeated germans in WW2 by quality but by quantity and how much production they could do, they were able to produce 1000's in days to 100's in germany..might be such wars are not wars of future but indigenous production is one which is only savior more u produce yourself, better product u produce next time, haven't we improved on navy ships??


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Nitin Saini said:


> Arjun is good enough for india, we support and more it improves..
> Army still keeps this attitude, we will remain dependent on imports...Top brass in army, seems too keen on filling their pockets by means of def deals then really concerned about indian defence in long run. why wasn't T90 tested on thar deserts? In war losses are reality, if we have a indigenous machine we will be able to recover our loses much quicker and take any action without fear of military supplier sanctions. even T90 and Su30 are dependent on russian in one way or another, we never recieved 100 TOT for them.
> Lesson from history: Soviets and Americans didn't defeated germans in WW2 by quality but by quantity and how much production they could do, they were able to produce 1000's in days to 100's in germany..might be such wars are not wars of future but indigenous production is one which is only savior more u produce yourself, better product u produce next time, haven't we improved on navy ships??



TATRA TATRA...VKS spoiled suhags and bikrams party.


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## Mr.S.Singh

actually the army is pissed, DRDO is at fault
I had a discussion wih one of retired army officer he made the following point

All MBT's are carried by rail, blood Arjun doesn't fit in one ..... He said operation requirements were given to DRDO, then what made them breach them is questionable

to induct arjun, they have to change their doctrine, arjun don't fit in transporters, new railway bogies have to be made, he said it is so wide, that it is risky to carry on a track where there are 2 trains coming and going simultaneously becuse distance between tracks are less 

other than that he said it was a fine tank


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GORKHALI said:


> That's right mate.You must give the credit where its due,I always have the respect for Al Khalid,though its just a plane* Chinese tank with Pakistan Green Paint and Ukrainian Engine but that doesn't make it invincible as it has gaps,a lot of gaps in protection,it still uses the T72 Auto loader which something PA should be worried about.*Similarly Arjun Mk2 has gaps in protection too like why the placed Radar in Left side leaving tank Venerable.



Sir you are very smart person ..


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## Omega007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sir you are very smart person ..



He's not totally off the mark now,is he??


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## indiatester

Mr.S.Singh said:


> actually the army is pissed, DRDO is at fault
> I had a discussion wih one of retired army officer he made the following point
> 
> All MBT's are carried by rail, blood Arjun doesn't fit in one ..... He said operation requirements were given to DRDO, then what made them breach them is questionable
> 
> to induct arjun, they have to change their doctrine, arjun don't fit in transporters, new railway bogies have to be made, he said it is so wide, that it is risky to carry on a track where there are 2 trains coming and going simultaneously becuse distance between tracks are less
> 
> other than that he said it was a fine tank



This seems more like an excuse rather than an actual problem.
For example, the existing bogies have a standard width of 3.2 mtrs where as Arjun Tank is about 3.9 mtrs.
Given that there are a lot of oversized equipment that are taken across trains, Arjun Tank should not have a problem for being 0.7 mts wider than a standard width closed bogie.

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## GORKHALI

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sir you are very smart person ..


Thanks mate. Aap mahan ho..



Mr.S.Singh said:


> actually the army is pissed, DRDO is at fault
> I had a discussion wih one of retired army officer he made the following point
> 
> All MBT's are carried by rail, blood Arjun doesn't fit in one ..... He said operation requirements were given to DRDO, then what made them breach them is questionable
> 
> to induct arjun, they have to change their doctrine, arjun don't fit in transporters, new railway bogies have to be made, he said it is so wide, that it is risky to carry on a track where there are 2 trains coming and going simultaneously becuse distance between tracks are less
> 
> other than that he said it was a fine tank


Hmmm you sure you talking to an army officer.....? Do double check his claim.Somewhere in rajasthan





Arjun Carrying Wagon are 6 Axel

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## Mr.S.Singh

GORKHALI said:


> Thanks mate. Aap mahan ho..
> 
> 
> Hmmm you sure you talking to an army officer.....? Do double check his claim.Somewhere in rajasthan
> Arjun Carrying Wagon are 6 Axel



lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK

there u go :p 
Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train



indiatester said:


> This seems more like an excuse rather than an actual problem.
> For example, the existing bogies have a standard width of 3.2 mtrs where as Arjun Tank is about 3.9 mtrs.
> Given that there are a lot of oversized equipment that are taken across trains, Arjun Tank should not have a problem for being 0.7 mts wider than a standard width closed bogie.


its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?


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## indiatester

Mr.S.Singh said:


> lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK
> 
> there u go :p
> Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
> Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train
> 
> 
> its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?



Do I have to start digging mud over IA's failures in various areas? Even in this tank endeavor, why was the army not involved during the design and implementation phases.
The thing is every body falls short at some area or the other. In this case DRDO was not able to meet all the requirements. That does not mean that you throw the baby out with the bath water. 
Every body including the Army has to work within the resources that they have access to. I have heard our IA chief say that they will fight with what they have. Arjun is one decent offering they have and they must prefer it over external products. However nobody is asking them to stop asking for improvements.
Anyway topic has been beaten to death by experts even on this forum. I am only ending up adding more noise from one side. I'll back off from further replies.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Mr.S.Singh said:


> lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK
> 
> there u go :p
> Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
> Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train
> 
> 
> its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?



what operational requirement? Did IA test t90s in India to check whether it fulfills their operational requirement? testing was done in russia and after induction T90s were not able to bear the heat of rajasthan desert. operational requirements only come into play for indigenous products. For faren products, its always induct first and we will see. 

IA generals say arjun is heavy and at the same time ask for modifications to it that will further increase its weight.

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## Mr.S.Singh

indiatester said:


> Do I have to start digging mud over IA's failures in various areas? Even in this tank endeavor, why was the army not involved during the design and implementation phases.


Was the airforce involved untill recently for Tejas ? Is the amry involved in any missiles technology ? Is the army involved when Insas was desgined and built ? the problem is in our syste,



indiatester said:


> The thing is every body falls short at some area or the other. In this case DRDO was not able to meet all the requirements. That does not mean that you throw the baby out with the bath water.
> Every body including the Army has to work within the resources that they have access to. I have heard our IA chief say that they will fight with what they have. Arjun is one decent offering they have and they must prefer it over external products. However nobody is asking them to stop asking for improvements.


Sir you are getting too emotional, i have quoted what an ex-officer has said, i don't stand by his word
he told me a few things
operational requirement where given, which are taken time to be meet- 
transportation problem, which clearly is, carriages have to be pulled by trains to all corners of India from east to the west



Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> what operational requirement? Did IA test t90s in India to check whether it fulfills their operational requirement? testing was done in russia and after induction T90s were not able to bear the heat of rajasthan desert. operational requirements only come into play for indigenous products. For faren products, its always induct first and we will see.


That is for the govt of India to take up and whack the army 



Bhasad Singh Mundi said:


> IA generals say arjun is heavy and at the same time ask for modifications to it that will further increase its weight.


arjuns weight cannot be reduced
at least they would iron out the problems, and look at inducting Arjun MBT II

Being working with the govt in various departments, i have realized, do whatever you want but stick to their specifications, if they are not meet your are doomed.


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## IND151

Omega007 said:


> Indeed Arjun has got some serious gaps when it comes to mounting of add on armor modules on the right side of front turret (not the left).The decision of mounting a BFSR was an ingenious one,but chose the worst area possible as the mounting place.It's prohibiting them from mounting ERA and also leaving the BFSR vulnerable to front attacks!! They should've placed it on the turret roof on a retractable mount in the bustle area,that would've been the ideal place,hope they rectify this serious design flaw sooner than later.
> 
> But after saying all this things,I was talking about the base armor protection of Arjun tanks,not about the add ons.In terms of base armor protection,Arjun has got a clear and decisive advantage over AK.
> * If we are to believe the words of Andrey Tarashenko from KMDB,the los of front turret base armor of AK 1 is no greater than 620mm at 0 degree,where as for Arjun it's close to about ~950mm*.
> Besides,the AK uses totally modular armor blocks on the front turret.Now it has got the advantage of quick changing of damaged modules but it comes at a price,a totally modular armor won't give you as much protection,especially against repeated attacks as would a solid semi modular structure provide.The Israelis felt it very badly with their Merkava Mk4s.And besides another problem with modular armor package is that you have to leave some gaps in the armor as places for mounting bolts and thus the amount of composite material you can stuff into has to be reduced.That's why you will see most of the premium tank building nations including USA and Germany sticking to semi modular construction rather than going for all out modularity.
> 
> Besides,AK doesn't have composite armor on the turret sides,where as the crew compartment of Arjun has side protection with 400mm base armor.
> 
> AK don't have isolated ammunition compartments,it lacks ballistic skirts.It's frontal hull protection is also poor compared to Arjun.
> 
> The gun on AK isn't really better either since they are still using the old L/48 2A46!!
> 
> Yet somehow our Arjun becomes "Arjunk" and the AK becomes the "Wounder waffe"!!I wonder how.



Kindly give source for this claim.



> AK uses totally modular armor blocks on the front turret.Now it has got the advantage of quick changing of damaged modules but it comes at a price,a totally modular armor won't give you as much protection,especially against repeated attacks as would a solid semi modular structure provide.The Israelis felt it very badly with their Merkava Mk4s.



This is new to me.


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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Mr.S.Singh said:


> Being working with the govt in various departments, i have realized, do whatever you want but stick to their specifications, if they are not meet your are doomed.




No one can meet IA and IAF requirements. and once they are cleared for faren induction they water down for faren oems.


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## Omega007

IND151 said:


> Kindly give source for this claim.
> 
> 
> 
> This is new to me.



As for the Al Khalid front turret LOS thickness,you have to visit Andrei bt's blog,I've lost the link.But you should still be able to find it.He's got vast knowledge about Ukrainian tanks and other armored vehicles.Besides if you want to gain knowledge about these things,I would recommend you to join thr tanknet forum and D F I.

WRT Arjun front turret LOS thickness,Kunal and Sayare had taken quite precise measurements during Defexpo 2014 and posted those in D F I.

And lastly, it might be new to you but to us,the tanknet members,it's nothing new.


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## Omega007

Mr.S.Singh said:


> lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK
> 
> there u go :p
> Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
> Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train
> 
> 
> its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?


 

What the **** are you talking about kid??
Do you even know that at first Arjun was meant to be a 45 ton tank with a three men crew??Then midway the development,the Pakistanis decided to induct the M1A1 and the Indian Army panicked.They suddenly realised that their supposed medium tank was no match and then they quickly backtracked and drafted a new GSQR.
Now they demanded the new tank had to be equipped with a 120mm high velocity gun,should have unitary ammo,isolated ammunition and fuel compartments,heavier armor that can take hits from the L44 gun of M1A1 and have a four men crew.In short,Army wanted a tank that could go head to head and toe to toe against the export model M1A1s.So the design had to be completely changed midstream which resulted in significant time and cost overruns.No wonder the resulting new tank gained so much extra weight!!It was not at all DRDO's fault,what was the army guys thinking then??Didn't they know that what they demanded was not possible without enhancing the weight significantly??If they had so much problem with weight,then why did they draft such a GSQR??Does it mean the Army deliberately wanted the Arjun to fail right from the start??Is that what you are implying moron??

Listen kiddo,it seems to me either that retired "intelligence officer" of yours has been suffering from amnesia and hence has lost all his rationale or more likely,you have been lying through your @rse like many a people do here;it's quite common here actually - take your pick.



Mr.S.Singh said:


> lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK
> 
> there u go :p
> Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
> Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train
> 
> 
> its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?


 

What the **** are you talking about kid??
Do you even know that at first Arjun was meant to be a 45 ton tank with a three men crew??Then midway the development,the Pakistanis decided to induct the M1A1 and the Indian Army panicked.They suddenly realised that their supposed medium tank was no match and then they quickly backtracked and drafted a new GSQR.
Now they demanded the new tank had to be equipped with a 120mm high velocity gun,should have unitary ammo,isolated ammunition and fuel compartments,heavier armor that can take hits from the L44 gun of M1A1 and have a four men crew.In short,Army wanted a tank that could go head to head and toe to toe against the export model M1A1s.So the design had to be completely changed midstream which resulted in significant time and cost overruns.No wonder the resulting new tank gained so much extra weight!!It was not at all DRDO's fault,what was the army guys thinking then??Didn't they know that what they demanded was not possible without enhancing the weight significantly??If they had so much problem with weight,then why did they draft such a GSQR??So should that lead us to believe that the Army deliberately wanted the Arjun to fail right from the start??Is that what you are implying moron??

Listen kiddo,it seems to me either that retired "intelligence officer" of yours has been suffering from amnesia and hence has lost all his rationale or more likely,you have been lying through your @rse like many a people do here;it's quite common here actually - take your pick.

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> As i said,You will never see fine prints as you never going to accept that he actually compared AL kahlid to an Chinese copy of Upgraded T72 which is not yet tested unlike T72,but he actually shown the balance overview of tanks.At the end of the day,Arjun Mk2 is not yet finalized,All they are doing is,testing on MK1.While,a jingoistic no matter what always defends his country glory ,actually a chinese glory in this case.




I am as neutral as it gets by the way, my personal fav mbt is BM OPLOT, not Alkhalid 
first, lets not make this an x vs y thread, a fine discussion on Arjun would do just good. On Alkhalid, you need to read a bit more as what the Project P-90 was, how it started, prototyping, pakistani specific tests and systems developed, trials, troubles, there is a world of difference between MBT 2000 and Alkhali in virtually every department.

Back to the topic


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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Indeed Arjun has got some serious gaps when it comes to mounting of add on armor modules on the right side of front turret (not the left).The decision of mounting a BFSR was an ingenious one,but chose the worst area possible as the mounting place.It's prohibiting them from mounting ERA and also leaving the BFSR vulnerable to front attacks!! They should've placed it on the turret roof on a retractable mount in the bustle area,that would've been the ideal place,hope they rectify this serious design flaw sooner than later.
> 
> But after saying all this things,I was talking about the base armor protection of Arjun tanks,not about the add ons.In terms of base armor protection,Arjun has got a clear and decisive advantage over AK.
> If we are to believe the words of Andrey Tarashenko from KMDB,the los of front turret base armor of AK 1 is no greater than 620mm at 0 degree,where as for Arjun it's close to about ~950mm.
> Besides,the AK uses totally modular armor blocks on the front turret.Now it has got the advantage of quick changing of damaged modules but it comes at a price,a totally modular armor won't give you as much protection,especially against repeated attacks as would a solid semi modular structure provide.The Israelis felt it very badly with their Merkava Mk4s.And besides another problem with modular armor package is that you have to leave some gaps in the armor as places for mounting bolts and thus the amount of composite material you can stuff into has to be reduced.That's why you will see most of the premium tank building nations including USA and Germany sticking to semi modular construction rather than going for all out modularity.
> 
> Besides,AK doesn't have composite armor on the turret sides,where as the crew compartment of Arjun has side protection with 400mm base armor.
> 
> AK don't have isolated ammunition compartments,it lacks ballistic skirts.It's frontal hull protection is also poor compared to Arjun.
> 
> The gun on AK isn't really better either since they are still using the old L/48 2A46!!
> 
> Yet somehow our Arjun becomes "Arjunk" and the AK becomes the "Wounder waffe"!!I wonder how.



Good post but some things are off the mark, 

composite blocks are easy to replace, yes they have gaps for bolts etc but is minimum, not even noticable at times, Tanks that follow this method is Altay, T-90, OPLOT, T-80ud, AK and few others.

About the gun, its 48 cal yes, but the electroslag remelting steel coupled with autofrettaged process, allows for a much powerful gun than a 2a46Mseries, till last year, metal blanks were imported form France. Ukraine follow the same route for KBA-3 series, in fact, the only similarity these guns have with a 2a46 design is dimenions and 125mm caliber. Besides, the gun is proved repeatedly in exercises as more powerful than KBA-3. 

AK has high hardened steel plates on roof and sides, layers, can be added with ERA if needed. What more do you want.

Almost all sources quoted front LOS of AK wrong, simply because none of them know the exact thickness, militarysta measured it at 660mm, Andrei measured 640, some say it is 680mm. No definite figure, i measured the thing back at IDEAS 2008 at 720mm.all of them without ERA plates. BUT, no final wold.
Arjun also do not have blow off panels as of yet, the only tank that has it in true sense is M1Axx series. However, AK has a very advanced FCS and network centric system in operation which has no perils in the region as of now.

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> I am as neutral as it gets by the way, my personal fav mbt is BM OPLOT, not Alkhalid
> first, lets not make this an x vs y thread, a fine discussion on Arjun would do just good. On Alkhalid, you need to read a bit more as what the Project P-90 was, how it started, prototyping, pakistani specific tests and systems developed, trials, troubles, there is a world of difference between MBT 2000 and Alkhali in virtually every department.
> 
> Back to the topic


Same here BM oplot is something even I have some envy for it. .Better than T90S.Till T90S get upgraded to T90MS.Oplot rules the subcontinent.


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## Omega007

Yeah,the BM Oplot.Its base armor may not be as good as latest Russian or NATO tanks,but it sure has one of the most highly efficient turret geometry but most importantly,it uses the Duplet ERA panels that use linear shaped charges (unlike conventional ERA like the Kontact 5 or Relict) which can virtually obliterate the most potent kinetic energy penetrators like the latest DM 53/63,M 829A2 and the M338,rendering this tank virtually immune to all presently available KE or SC rounds!!

But after pointing out all its strengths,it also has got some very serious glaring weak points without their mention it would be a rather biased representation of this system.The weak points include a badly designed hull (common to all eastern block tanks),unarmored gun mantlet mask,an exposed roof from front but most dangerous of them all being its ammunition storage......even more than the T 90s.
Because unlike the AZ series autoloaders in T 90s,where ammunitions and propelant charges are stored in horizontal positions close to the hull floor and thus difficult to hit with anti tank guns or ATGMs (but more vulnerable to anti tank mines),in case of T 84's autoloaders,the propelant charges are stored in vertical positions.Coupled with lack of heavy ballistic skarts,it makes the charges vulnerable to flanking attacks through the unprotected hull sides.

My personal favourite is the M1A2 SEPV2 with the DU armor aka HAP (heavy armor package).It is the most well designed tank presently in service anywhere in the world.If I'm presented with a choice,I'd definitely choose this thing to fight in;not a Leopard,not a Challenger 2 and not the Arjun or any other tank.

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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> Good post but some things are off the mark,
> 
> composite blocks are easy to replace, yes they have gaps for bolts etc but is minimum, not even noticable at times, Tanks that follow this method is Altay, T-90, OPLOT, T-80ud, AK and few others.
> 
> About the gun, its 48 cal yes, but the electroslag remelting steel coupled with autofrettaged process, allows for a much powerful gun than a 2a46Mseries, till last year, metal blanks were imported form France. Ukraine follow the same route for KBA-3 series, in fact, the only similarity these guns have with a 2a46 design is dimenions and 125mm caliber. Besides, the gun is proved repeatedly in exercises as more powerful than KBA-3.
> 
> AK has high hardened steel plates on roof and sides, layers, can be added with ERA if needed. What more do you want.
> 
> Almost all sources quoted front LOS of AK wrong, simply because none of them know the exact thickness, militarysta measured it at 660mm, Andrei measured 640, some say it is 680mm. No definite figure, i measured the thing back at IDEAS 2008 at 720mm.all of them without ERA plates. BUT, no final wold.
> Arjun also do not have blow off panels as of yet, the only tank that has it in true sense is M1Axx series. However, AK has a very advanced FCS and network centric system in operation which has no perils in the region as of now.



The gaps for bolts are not that big a issue,I agree totally.But that's not the point here boss.The point is,a solid semi modular structure will always enjoy a significantly higher amount of structural strength vis-a-vis a fully modular one.It's just simple law of physics!!The Israelis paid dearly with their Merkava MkIVs for their over reliance on modularity.There's is a reason the major western tank builders like the US or the Germans held on to their semi modular approach.But in the end,it all boils down to operational requirements and doctrines.

About the gun barrels,to be frank,both electroslag remelting and autofrettagation process has been standard for quite some times.Nothing extraordinary.

80mm of hardened steel coupled with the light ERA currently available to Pakistan is not at all enough of a protection even against RPG 7VRs.Look at all the Russian,Ukrainian or the NATO tanks - all of them have composite armor cover throughout the frontal 60 degree ark in one form or the other,although the western approach is more well suited.
Even the Indians now have seemed to realised the problem with Arjun MkI side turret protection (in MkI it was about 45 degree) and has tried to rectify this (at least to a certain extent) by adding add on composite armor blocks and heavy ERA cover on the turret sides.Similar measures should be taken for AK.

As for the front turret LOS thickness,640mm and 660mm isn't that much big of a difference,now is it??Besides,I would take the words of Andreij since he has got quite a good connection with KMDB people and KMDB engineers did some work on your AK if my memory serves me correct.

And Arjun do have blow off panels and sealed ammunition compartments,just google for a top view of Arjun's turret and you will be able to see them.Don't take my words for it,you have the power of internet with you,use it to your advantage.
In fact,in Defexpo 2014,DRDO had published a photo showing a cooked-off ammo compartment and exhaustion of burning propelant gases through the blow-out panels on the turret roof.Search for it in D F I.

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## Omega007

Oh and @Dazzler,the FCS on the Arjun MkII isn't really the french Savan 15.It's a local system developed by BEL and manufactured under tot by Tata electronics.A different version of this FCS has been installed in the Indian T 90S replacing the original Russian supplied system since it had been frequently malfunctioning under the desert heats.
Damian got it confused with tye Savan due to its outward similar looks.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Omega007 said:


> He's not totally off the mark now,is he??



Sure .. sure.. whatever you say boss... you guys are supreme authority when it comes to weapon systems...






sarcasm,


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## Slav Defence

Omega007 said:


> Stop wasting your time on this shit.It's the same dazzler idiot from D F I who gets his arse owned all the time there due to his nonsense trash talks.


Negatively rated for personal offense.


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## Omega007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sure .. sure.. whatever you say boss... you guys are supreme authority when it comes to weapon systems...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sarcasm,



Yeah,I can see that boss.No one is saying is your AK is a bad tank or as such.So please don't get hyper Mr Nationalist.

Just read the few of the above posts.In some fields,AK has got clear advantage over Arjun - 
1.More compact and lighter engine and transmission assembly.

2.Better mobility.
3.Better placement of sensors.
4.Better firepower resulting from more modern Naiza DU ammunition.Hopefully,with the advent of the new quad segmented long rod FSAPDS round,we would be able to somewhat balance the equation.

But it also has got some disadvantages too.We were merely trying to point them out.Doesn't mean we are calling it a junk or something because it isn't.

By the way,AK variants aren't the most dangerous tank in Pakistani inventory,it's actually those ~380 odd T 80UDs 
(Ob'yekt
478B ).





Slav Defence said:


> Negatively rated for personal offense.



And I definitely deserved that.It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part which was very silly and untrue and which I'm ashamed of.I would never do it again.Could you somehow delete that post??

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## Slav Defence

Omega007 said:


> Yeah,I can see that boss.No one is saying is your AK is a bad tank or as such.So please don't get hyper Mr Nationalist.
> 
> Just read the few of the above posts.In some fields,AK has got clear advantage over Arjun -
> 1.More compact and lighter engine and transmission assembly.
> 
> 2.Better mobility.
> 3.Better placement of sensors.
> 4.Better firepower resulting from more modern Naiza DU ammunition.Hopefully,with the advent of the new quad segmented long rod FSAPDS round,we would be able to somewhat balance the equation.
> 
> But it also has got some disadvantages too.We were merely trying to point them out.Doesn't mean we are calling it a junk or something because it isn't.
> 
> By the way,AK variants aren't the most dangerous tank in Pakistani inventory,it's actually those ~380 odd T 80UDs
> (Ob'yekt
> 478B ).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I definitely deserved that.It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part which was very silly and untrue and which I'm ashamed of.I would never do it again.Could you somehow delete that post??


You edit it.I will take my rating back.I promise.


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## Omega007

Slav Defence said:


> You edit it.I will take my rating back.I promise.



I can not edit it anymore,that's why I asked you.And the rating is fine mate,you did the the right thing.I deserved that,let it stay.

But please do something about that comment if you could.

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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> The gaps for bolts are not that big a issue,I agree totally.But that's not the point here boss.The point is,a solid semi modular structure will always enjoy a significantly higher amount of structural strength vis-a-vis a fully modular one.It's just simple law of physics!!The Israelis paid dearly with their Merkava MkIVs for their over reliance on modularity.There's is a reason the major western tank builders like the US or the Germans held on to their semi modular approach.But in the end,it all boils down to operational requirements and doctrines.
> 
> About the gun barrels,to be frank,both electroslag remelting and autofrettagation process has been standard for quite some times.Nothing extraordinary.
> 
> 80mm of hardened steel coupled with the light ERA currently available to Pakistan is not at all enough of a protection even against RPG 7VRs.Look at all the Russian,Ukrainian or the NATO tanks - all of them have composite armor cover throughout the frontal 60 degree ark in one form or the other,although the western approach is more well suited.
> Even the Indians now have seemed to realised the problem with Arjun MkI side turret protection (in MkI it was about 45 degree) and has tried to rectify this (at least to a certain extent) by adding add on composite armor blocks and heavy ERA cover on the turret sides.Similar measures should be taken for AK.
> 
> As for the front turret LOS thickness,640mm and 660mm isn't that much big of a difference,now is it??Besides,I would take the words of Andreij since he has got quite a good connection with KMDB people and KMDB engineers did some work on your AK if my memory serves me correct.
> 
> And Arjun do have blow off panels and sealed ammunition compartments,just google for a top view of Arjun's turret and you will be able to see them.Don't take my words for it,you have the power of internet with you,use it to your advantage.
> In fact,in Defexpo 2014,DRDO had published a photo showing a cooked-off ammo compartment and exhaustion of burning propelant gases through the blow-out panels on the turret roof.Search for it in D F I.



just few words here, half knowledge is worse thanno knkwledge. the same andrei tarasenko mentiined CV12 condor as alkhalid engine on his blog while the man is ukrainian. i myself have corrected him more thanonce.

lastly, this is arjun thread,enough derailing here,do ooen a new thread to duscuss further mbt matters. i will correct some assumptions.

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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> just few words here, half knowledge is worse thanno knkwledge. the same andrei tarasenko mentiined CV12 condor as alkhalid engine on his blog while the man is ukrainian. i myself have corrected him more thanonce.
> 
> lastly, this is arjun thread,enough derailing here,do ooen a new thread to duscuss further mbt matters. i will correct some assumptions.



Fair enough,will definitely do as you told in future.

Lastly,as to why I believe the LOS value of the front turret armor module is because it was posted with a picture with measurements in D F I.Ask militarysta for that picture or visit the "mbt and armor tech" thread.But I forgot the exact page,so you have to do the digging.


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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Fair enough,will definitely do as you told in future.
> 
> Lastly,as to why I believe the LOS value of the front turret armor module is because it was posted with a picture with measurements in D F I.Ask militarysta for that picture or visit the "mbt and armor tech" thread.But I forgot the exact page,so you have to do the digging.


dont buy too much of d f i either, some info is gud, other urtter bs


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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> dont buy too much of d f i either, some info is gud, other urtter bs



Couldn't agree more.And I think that the ~640mm value is for base model AKs.I'm sure engineers at HIT is working to improve the protection level in the later models as we speak, if they haven't done it already.But I still think that they should've gone for a semi modular construction.


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## IND151

Omega007 said:


> What the **** are you talking about kid??
> Do you even know that at first Arjun was meant to be a 45 ton tank with a three men crew??*Then midway the development,the Pakistanis decided to induct the M1A1* and the Indian Army panicked.They suddenly realised that their supposed medium tank was no match and then they quickly backtracked and drafted a new GSQR.
> Now they demanded the new tank had to be equipped with a 120mm high velocity gun,should have unitary ammo,isolated ammunition and fuel compartments,heavier armor that can take hits from the L44 gun of M1A1 and have a four men crew.In short,Army wanted a tank that could go head to head and toe to toe against the export model M1A1s.So the design had to be completely changed midstream which resulted in significant time and cost overruns.No wonder the resulting new tank gained so much extra weight!!It was not at all DRDO's fault,what was the army guys thinking then??Didn't they know that what they demanded was not possible without enhancing the weight significantly??If they had so much problem with weight,then why did they draft such a GSQR??Does it mean the Army deliberately wanted the Arjun to fail right from the start??Is that what you are implying moron??
> 
> Listen kiddo,it seems to me either that retired "intelligence officer" of yours has been suffering from amnesia and hence has lost all his rationale or more likely,you have been lying through your @rse like many a people do here;it's quite common here actually - take your pick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the **** are you talking about kid??
> Do you even know that at first Arjun was meant to be a 45 ton tank with a three men crew??Then midway the development,the Pakistanis decided to induct the M1A1 and the Indian Army panicked.They suddenly realised that their supposed medium tank was no match and then they quickly backtracked and drafted a new GSQR.
> Now they demanded the new tank had to be equipped with a 120mm high velocity gun,should have unitary ammo,isolated ammunition and fuel compartments,heavier armor that can take hits from the L44 gun of M1A1 and have a four men crew.In short,Army wanted a tank that could go head to head and toe to toe against the export model M1A1s.So the design had to be completely changed midstream which resulted in significant time and cost overruns.No wonder the resulting new tank gained so much extra weight!!It was not at all DRDO's fault,what was the army guys thinking then??Didn't they know that what they demanded was not possible without enhancing the weight significantly??If they had so much problem with weight,then why did they draft such a GSQR??So should that lead us to believe that the Army deliberately wanted the Arjun to fail right from the start??Is that what you are implying moron??
> 
> Listen kiddo,it seems to me either that retired "intelligence officer" of yours has been suffering from amnesia and hence has lost all his rationale or more likely,you have been lying through your @rse like many a people do here;it's quite common here actually - take your pick.



The possibility of PA acquiring Abrams M 1 definitely played its part.

*1985 &#8211; 1990*

There had been significant enhancement in the battle tank technologies world wide and there was a possibility of these tanks being introduced in the Indian Sub Continent.*This prompted Indian Army to change its GSQR and in November 1985, third GSQR No. 467 was issued.*The changes in GSQR were:

a)*More lethal gun of 120mm caliber.*
b)Requirement of *Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS)*
c)Development of Semi Combustible Cartridge cases and high energy propellant.
d)*Integrated Fire Control System *based on *sight stabilized system *with p*eriscopic gunner sight.*
e)*Thermal Imaging system for gunner&#8217;s main sight for night fighting capabilities.*
f)Provision of* &#8220;Kanchan Armour&#8221;* for enhanced immunity.

The development of the tank was progressed with reference to the new GSQR. *DRDO *had to *redesign* the* structure of chassis/ hull. *The turret had to be designed again to cater to improved armour protection and a high power to weight ratio power pack. The* MBT now also to feature Nuclear Biological and Chemical (NBC) warfare and protection system, Medium Fording capability, auxiliary power unit (APU), Laser Warning System (LWS) and Global Positioning System (GPS)*.


Story of MBT 80- Arjun

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Omega007 said:


> But it also has got some disadvantages too.We were merely trying to point them out.Doesn't mean we are calling it a junk or something because it isn't.



Like what? you pal here claimed tht it was a Chinese t-72 copy with a ukranian engine n a green paint? its autolaoder etc? can you tell us about just 1 single chinese system used by AK?




> By the way,AK variants aren't the most dangerous tank in Pakistani inventory,it's actually those ~380 odd T 80UDs
> (Ob'yekt
> 478B ).




Are you friggin serious? T-80U/84s are inferior to AK... and guess what a new variant will be show in december IDEAS 2014 .. This year...

P.S: UDs dont only have the wielded turret of T-84.. But also its systems.. which have been upgraded as of now.


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## Omega007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Like what? you pal here claimed tht it was a Chinese t-72 copy with a ukranian engine n a green paint? its autolaoder etc? can you tell us about just 1 single chinese system used by AK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you friggin serious? T-80U/84s are inferior to AK... and guess what a new variant will be show in december IDEAS 2014 .. This year...
> 
> P.S: UDs dont only have the wielded turret of T-84.. But also its systems.. which have been upgraded as of now.



I never claimed such a thing.And you are too jingoistic to run a debate with,believe whatever you would like to.

@Dazzler ,you handle him boss,I'm outta here.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Omega007 said:


> I never claimed such a thing.And you are too jingoistic to run a debate with,believe whatever you would like to.
> 
> @Dazzler ,you handle him boss,I'm outta here.


how abt reading my post again.. carefully n not acting all gung ho.


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## Omega007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> how abt reading my post again.. carefully n not acting all gung ho.



I ain't acting all gung ho man,you know I respect you.But please take a notice at what you've written.You wrote,"you pal here claimed
tht it was a Chinese t-72 copy
with a ukranian engine n a greens 
paint" - now you kindly tell me what is "you pal" supposed to mean here??

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## Omega007

@DESERT FIGHTER ,dude,as to why many including me believe the T 80UD (Ob'yekt 478B ) being the most dangerous tank in your inventory,I would answer it just two words - "turret geometry".Well,there are other points as well,but this one is the single most important one.
And could you please share some info wrt your new tank you told about??

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## Alfa-Fighter

What the Heck we are discussing PAK tank , @mods can you ban this posters who are trolling other then Arjun ???


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## nik22

Omega007 said:


> Couldn't agree more.And I think that the ~640mm value is for base model AKs.I'm sure engineers at HIT is working to improve the protection level in the later models as we speak, if they haven't done it already.But I still think that they should've gone for a semi modular construction.


Wow, you have become nice and civilized. Hope you are doing better now. 
Found your other posts for @GURU DUTT in a different thread. Was surprised to see your response.


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## GORKHALI

Omega007 said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER ,dude,as to why many including me believe the T 80UD (Ob'yekt 478B ) being the most dangerous tank in your inventory,I would answer it just two words - "turret geometry".Well,there are other points as well,but this one is the single most important one.
> And could you please share some info wrt your new tank you told about??


Hey Bro...Mail me at mikeyjena@gmail.com...


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## Omega007

GORKHALI said:


> Hey Bro...Mail me at mikeyjena@gmail.com...



Will do,THANX man.


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## Omega007

nik22 said:


> Wow, you have become nice and civilized. Hope you are doing better now.
> Found your other posts for @GURU DUTT in a different thread. Was surprised to see your response.



Thanks dude.I always respect people/members who speak sense.But look at his posts,I asked him a few question so as to amplify his opinion.But look at how he answered them.
Now I don't mind swearing,or if someone calls me a dumbo,or an idiot or a moron or whatever as long as he's delivering a logical reply,but just take a look at his replies for once.Clearly and evidently he didn't have the slightest idea about even the most basic and rudimentary aspects of the respective topic,yet he had been so quick deliver his "expert" opinion as if he was the sole authority on that subject.
Sorry to say but my capacity for intake of such nonsense is rather limited.

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## acetophenol

^^^Screenshot from an Arjun MK2 Documentary showing front and turret ERA.

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## Omega007

acetophenol said:


> ^^^Screenshot from an Arjun MK2 Documentary showing front and turret ERA.



The tiles on the glacis plates are not ERA,those are NERA tiles.

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## -------

I would like to ask a question posed to our Indian friends, concerning the Arjun tank. Currently there are few MBTs developed with Hydropneumatic suspension Arjun being one of them, and since Altay will soon join the fray, I was wondering what is the performance like on the Arjun tank. Has there been any incidents concerning the suspension, is it seen as superior to the torsion bar setup that T-90 tanks have?

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## acetophenol

Omega007 said:


> The tiles on the glacis plates are not ERA,those are NERA tiles.



The guy told ERA though:p



Combat-Master said:


> I would like to ask a question posed to our Indian friends, concerning the Arjun tank. Currently there are few MBTs developed with Hydropneumatic suspension Arjun being one of them, and since Altay will soon join the fray, I was wondering what is the performance like on the Arjun tank. Has there been any incidents concerning the suspension, is it seen as superior to the torsion bar setup that T-90 tanks have?



There has been no issues to my knowledge,the Hydropneumatic suspension was praised for giving Arjun better stability,accuracy,and crew comfort etc.


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## Omega007

acetophenol said:


> The guy told ERA though:p
> 
> 
> 
> There has been no issues to my knowledge,the Hydropneumatic suspension was praised for giving Arjun better stability,accuracy,and crew comfort etc.




Hm,"the guy" probably doesn't even know the difference between the butt end and business end of a rifle for all we know.It was posted in detail in a DRDO tech focus,that particular issue dealt with various vehicular armor modules,new types of hardened materials and passive dynamic armor.

Check this out.Courtesy @Gessler.

i.imgur.com/z0lhb3v.jpg

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## acetophenol

Omega007 said:


> Hm,"the guy" probably doesn't even know the difference between the butt end and business end of a rifle for all we know.It was posted in detail in a DRDO tech focus,that particular issue dealt with various vehicular armor modules,new types of hardened materials and passive dynamic armor.
> 
> Check this out.Courtesy @Gessler.
> 
> i.imgur.com/z0lhb3v.jpg



By "the guy" I didn't mean the anchor,but the DRDO guy,who is in Design and Devolopment.But yeah, he wouldn't have bothered to specify if its NERA or ERA


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## ashwamedh

acetophenol said:


> The guy told ERA though:p
> 
> 
> 
> There has been no issues to my knowledge,the Hydropneumatic suspension was praised for giving Arjun better stability,accuracy,and crew comfort etc.


Yes, They are better than Torsion Bar Suspension..........But Difficult and Costly to maintain. I think this issue will be reduced with time and exp.


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## Dazzler

ashwamedh said:


> Yes, They are better than Torsion Bar Suspension..........But Difficult and Costly to maintain. I think this issue will be reduced with time and exp.



in some cases, torsion bars provide better results, ask germans why they prefer it on leo-2 series instead of hydrogas suspension. there is no rule of thumb, it comes down to terrain, maintenance and requirement for either system. modren torsion bars are a generation ahead than the old versions.



Omega007 said:


> The tiles on the glacis plates are not ERA,those are NERA tiles.



just a copy of russian kontakt 5 ERA

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> just a copy of russian kontakt 5 ERA



Proof ?

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## Echo_419

Dazzler said:


> in some cases, torsion bars provide better results, ask germans why they prefer it on leo-2 series instead of hydrogas suspension. there is no rule of thumb, it comes down to terrain, maintenance and requirement for either system. modren torsion bars are a generation ahead than the old versions.
> 
> 
> 
> just a copy of russian kontakt 5 ERA



Those are very tall claims you are making without any Proof.


----------



## Dazzler

Echo_419 said:


> Those are very tall claims you are making without any Proof.



you dont need proof for the obvious. its k-5 copy, still an improvement for earlier k-1 copy as fitted to ajaya series.



Echo_419 said:


> Those are very tall claims you are making without any Proof.



which one? google leo 2 suapension and have a good read on german torsion bars.



Kaalapani said:


> mullas and proof dont go hand in hand.


post reported, be careful next time while commenting.

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## bloo

Dazzler said:


> you dont need proof for the obvious. its k-5 copy, still an improvement for earlier k-1 copy as fitted to ajaya series.
> 
> 
> 
> which one? google leo 2 suapension and have a good read on german torsion bars.
> 
> 
> post reported, be careful next time while commenting.




How is it obvious?
I don't know if you are talking about the the Glacis plate or the turret face but it has *clearly* been said that a honeycomb fashioned Non-Energetic Reactive Armour (NERA) is used in Arjun Mk2 and not ERA like the kontakt 5, the only similarity I see is the design of the kontakt 5 and the one on the arjun's turret face.

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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> just a copy of russian Kontakt 5 ERA



If......a big if, you could shed this "foot in the mouth and head in the you know where" syndrome of yours,you could actually make a pretty good person to debate with,really.

 How do you know that the plates on the glacis are copy of Kontakt 5??Did the CVRDE chief personally briefed you??Or you are shooting blind from the hip as you do most of the times??

Do you even think before you speak??Do you even no that there are official evidence to support my claim??!!Of course not,you would never even try to find them rather than throwing facts from your behind.Because that's the easier thing to do rather than try searching the net for the relevant information,ain't it??

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## Omega007

Here you go Mr Know all,check it out for yourself.

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## GORKHALI

Omega007 said:


> If......a big if, you could shed this "foot in the mouth and head in the you know where" syndrome of yours,you could actually make a pretty good person to debate with,really.
> 
> How do you know that the plates on the glacis are copy of Kontakt 5??Did the CVRDE chief personally briefed you??Or you are shooting blind from the hip as you do most of the times??
> 
> Do you even think before you speak??Do you even no that there are official evidence to support my claim??!!Of course not,you would never even try to find them rather than throwing facts from your behind.Because that's the easier thing to do rather than try searching the net for the relevant information,ain't it??


I told you once

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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> If......a big if, you could shed this "foot in the mouth and head in the you know where" syndrome of yours,you could actually make a pretty good person to debate with,really.
> 
> How do you know that the plates on the glacis are copy of Kontakt 5??Did the CVRDE chief personally briefed you??Or you are shooting blind from the hip as you do most of the times??
> 
> Do you even think before you speak??Do you even no that there are official evidence to support my claim??!!Of course not,you would never even try to find them rather than throwing facts from your behind.Because that's the easier thing to do rather than try searching the net for the relevant information,ain't it??



i dont take rants for an argument, cvrde is doing dick about ERA development. its a fact.



GORKHALI said:


> I told you once


you still didnt reply my post 



Omega007 said:


> Here you go Mr Know all,check it out for yourself.



you know even less than i thought. 

the pics are not of the material used in supposedly nera tiles covering arjun. at least do google or go to your *** buddies and ask them.

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> i dont take rants for an argument, cvrde is doing dick about ERA development. its a fact.



Just shut up and go troll elsewhere.Here are the panels acetophenoil pointed out

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## he-man

Alfa-Fighter said:


> What the Heck we are discussing PAK tank , @mods can you ban this posters who are trolling other then Arjun ???



Dayyum,,,looks like the other lobby was stronger than u

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## Kaalapani

Dazzler said:


> i dont take rants for an argument, cvrde is doing dick about ERA development. its a fact.
> 
> 
> .



When did you see CVRDE Dick?

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## Kloitra

Dazzler said:


> just a copy of russian kontakt 5 ERA



Pray tell, how can a non-explosive reactive armour be copy of an era?

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## NEPALESE GURKHA

When this tank is going through production and induction ? what is the exact no of tanks to be made and since when?


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> i dont take rants for an argument, cvrde is doing dick about ERA development. its a fact.
> 
> 
> you still didnt reply my post
> 
> 
> 
> you know even less than i thought.
> 
> the pics are not of the material used in supposedly nera tiles covering arjun. at least do google or go to your *** buddies and ask them.


I replied you mate. But you will still stick with vast superior AK and Vast inferior Arjun. Your claims busted many times but you will never show up to answer those.Just Like your story about 71 and 45 armoured group

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## acetophenol

Dazzler said:


> just a copy of russian kontakt 5 ERA



Prove what you said or you are just ranting.

EXPLOSIVE REACTIVE ARMOUR

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## Ammyy

Last I know that production of MK2 version started in 2013, can any one tell present status ??

Last I know that production of MK2 version started in 2013, can any one tell present status ??


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## IndoUS

NEPALESE GURKHA said:


> When this tank is going through production and induction ? what is the exact no of tanks to be made and since when?


MK-I is in production with 124 tanks on order while Mk-II just completed part of its trials and will go into production hopefully in next 2 years.



Ammyy said:


> Last I know that production of MK2 version started in 2013, can any one tell present status ??
> 
> Last I know that production of MK2 version started in 2013, can any one tell present status ??


If I remember correctly they just completed summer trial last year so maybe not in production yet.


----------



## Omega007

@GORKHALI ,yes brother,you had told me before and you were completely totally absolutely hundred percent right that @Dazzler is a basket case.

@Dazzler ,you effing moron.Stop making a fool out of yourself.Do you mind telling us how come a non explosive dynamic armor suddenly became a copy of the Kontakt 5 ERA??
Well,what to expect from a 10 year old gullible simpleton on steroids who believes that torsion bar is better than hydro gas suspension and an L48 gun becomes better than L52!!

But I don't blame ya,really.I mean,after all it's not your fault that you are a moron and a madrassa "educated"!!

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## GORKHALI

Omega007 said:


> @GORKHALI ,yes brother,you had told me before and you were completely totally absolutely hundred percent right that @Dazzler is a basket case.
> 
> @Dazzler ,you effing moron.Stop making a fool out of yourself.Do you mind telling us how come a non explosive dynamic armor suddenly became a copy of the Kontakt 5 ERA??
> Well,what to expect from a 10 year old gullible simpleton on steroids who believes that torsion bar is better than hydro gas suspension and an L48 gun becomes better than L52!!
> 
> But I don't blame ya,really.I mean it's not your fault that you are a moron and a madrassa "educated" child after all!!


Bro please edit your post.Don't go personal about him.


----------



## he-man

Without any comments on pakistani tank,,i just don't like the design of arjun,,,we should be more creative.
Perhaps in next gen tank,,,when ever it comes or mk3??


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## IndoUS

he-man said:


> Without any comments on pakistani tank,,i just don't like the design of arjun,,,we should be more creative.
> Perhaps in next gen tank,,,when ever it comes or mk3??


Which one Maye Mk-I or II? Didn't personally liked the design of the first version but two was a major improvement.


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## GORKHALI

he-man said:


> Without any comments on pakistani tank,,i just don't like the design of arjun,,,we should be more creative.
> Perhaps in next gen tank,,,when ever it comes or mk3??


Well mate.This is our 1st attempt,am sure with time,it will be as deadly as leopard tanks.


----------



## he-man

IndoUS said:


> Which one Maye Mk-I or II? Didn't personally liked the design of the first version but two was a major improvement.



The turrent is improved in mk2 but the main body is still awfully uninspiring just like the t-90..............we must design the things better i think.



GORKHALI said:


> Well mate.This is our 1st attempt,am sure with time,it will be as deadly as leopard tanks.



I said pretty much the same in my post

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## Kaalapani

he-man said:


> The turrent is improved in mk2 but the main body is still awfully uninspiring just like the t-90..............we must design the things better i think.
> 
> 
> 
> I said pretty much the same in my post




This is tank design not beauty contest.hope you understand.


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## Omega007

@he-man ,could you please be a bit more specific about which part you feel is wrongly designed - turret or hull and the specific portions which you think needed to be improved upon??It'll be easier to debate.Thank you.


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## he-man

Kaalapani said:


> This is tank design not beauty contest.hope you understand.



As if we have a world beater here............we have just arrived at the scene,it will take some time



Omega007 said:


> @he-man ,could you please be a bit more specific about which part you feel is wrongly designed - turret or hull and the specific portions which you think needed to be improved upon??It'll be easier to debate.Thank you.



Na man,,i am not looking for trouble.
I just don't like the design,,,whats big deal about it??

Compare it to merkava,challenger,leopard or japanese type 10(god i love that tank) and even u would agree.
Now we may take some time to get to their level of design,,lets hope we get there soon

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## Omega007

he-man said:


> As if we have a world beater here............we have just arrived at the scene,it will take some time
> 
> 
> 
> Na man,,i am not looking for trouble.
> I just don't like the design,,,whats big deal about it??
> 
> Compare it to merkava,challenger,leopard or japanese type 10(god i love that tank) and even u would agree.
> Now we may take some time to get to their level of design,,lets hope we get there soon



What trouble dude,it was a genuine question.Everyone knows here that I'm a tank fanatic and your post got me curious,that's all.

Basically I don't like the design of Arjun turret myself,too much gaps here and there.The MkII turret isn't particularly a deep improvement I had hoped for.Just go back a few pages and have a look at my posts over there.

By the way,the design of the Merkava isn't particularly a good one.The Leopard 2 especially those from the A5 onwards are a different thing though.But overall,the undisputed best is the M1A2 SEPV2 with TUSK package.

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## Kaalapani

he-man said:


> As if we have a world beater here............we have just arrived at the scene,it will take some time
> 
> 
> 
> Na man,,i am not looking for trouble.
> I just don't like the design,,,whats big deal about it??
> 
> Compare it to merkava,challenger,leopard or japanese type 10(god i love that tank) and even u would agree.
> Now we may take some time to get to their level of design,,lets hope we get there soon










Watch this is if fully refined.Only production efficiency is required.


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## he-man

Omega007 said:


> What trouble dude,it was a genuine question.Everyone knows here that I'm a tank fanatic and your post got me curious,that's all.
> 
> Basically I don't like the design of Arjun turret myself,too much gaps here and there.The MkII turret isn't particularly a deep improvement I had hoped for.Just go back a few pages and have a look at my posts over there.
> 
> By the way,the design of the Merkava isn't particularly a good one.The Leopard 2 especially those from the A5 onwards are a different thing though.But overall,the undisputed best is the M1A2 SEPV2 with TUSK package.



type 10

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## IndoUS

he-man said:


> type 10


The side protection is what the Mk-II has improved on, but still need some adjustment and better protection from behind. Need something like above.


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## Omega007

he-man said:


> type 10



Yes,looks sexy and all.But hull ammunition compartment not isolated and site turret protection is also not good.


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## Kaalapani

NEPALESE GURKHA said:


> When this tank is going through production and induction ? what is the exact no of tanks to be made and since when?



Min of 3 regiments of mk2 that is around 180.


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## he-man

Omega007 said:


> Yes,looks sexy and all.But hull ammunition compartment not isolated and site turret protection is also not good.



Don't care..........i am all for hot stuff


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## IndoUS

Omega007 said:


> Yes,looks sexy and all.But hull ammunition compartment not isolated and site turret protection is also not good.


Why so mate? Looks similar to the ceramic composit add on armor that Israel uses.


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## Omega007

IndoUS said:


> Why so mate? Looks similar to the ceramic composit add on armor that Israel uses.




Sorry,I meant comparatively not good.........compared to the likes of newer Leopard 2 and M1A2 variants.Doesn't mean it's totally poor like the Chinese or the Korean ones.

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> I replied you mate. But you will still stick with vast superior AK and Vast inferior Arjun. Your claims busted many times but you will never show up to answer those.Just Like your story about 71 and 45 armoured group



guys like you keep chanting hollow patriot chants without even realising what s**t your organizations and stakeholders have caused to IA in shape of a blunder named Arjun. I truly feel sorry for IA guys. Go through previous pages and see what is wrong with the whole tank, so much so that it does not even qualify to be rated as a weapon system. Take your head out of the ostrich hole and see the real picture.

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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> @GORKHALI ,yes brother,you had told me before and you were completely totally absolutely hundred percent right that @Dazzler is a basket case.
> 
> @Dazzler ,you effing moron.Stop making a fool out of yourself.Do you mind telling us how come a non explosive dynamic armor suddenly became a copy of the Kontakt 5 ERA??
> Well,what to expect from a 10 year old gullible simpleton on steroids who believes that torsion bar is better than hydro gas suspension and an L48 gun becomes better than L52!!
> 
> But I don't blame ya,really.I mean,after all it's not your fault that you are a moron and a madrassa "educated"!!



For starters, I have had enough of you so had to report the post. Better learn some manners before indulging in an argument, i.e. if you know how to conduct one. You have depicted a very bad picture of indian members on thi sforum by this absurd post of yours.

Your use of foul language shows where you come from, nothing hidden here.


this is the reactive armour on DRDO post, used on T-72 (K-1 clone unless you are blind or something)







Arjun ERA cover, see the tiles? they are NOT NERA acn cannot be due to turret limitations in design,







compared with Bhishma, same dimensions, same size, K-5 ERA, also notice the galcis on both tanks..







lastly, you id**t, NEAR is basically a part of composite armour, just a component, few tiles sandwiched between other metallic/ non metallic materials. Your showing of a few marketing pics only means that Kanchan composite armour has NERA layer (s), not fitted on the outer turret which would be absurd on part of designers (have they not done too much absurdity with Arjun already?).

for instance, see Leo -2 NERA layered cover..






got it? no? see again, Polish NERA inserts explained..






the purpose of using NERA is by no means to defeat the incoming apfsds or HEAT round, but to reduce the velocity by obstructing it with materials of different density, material thickness and hardness.

Lastly, no body said Hydroas is inferior to torsion bar you idiot, you have comprehension issue or what? I said it depends upon REQUIREMENTS, guess you work at DRDO who does not know the difference of requirements and qualities. What is the best out there, may not be feasible for some, its is simple logic. Go and argue Germans why they opted for Torsion bars instead of mighty hydrogas suspension

Hope you get it under your thick skinned head now.

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## Omega007

If these bull sh*t is really what you believe in,then I fear I've got nothing to argue with you because I for one never argue with a fool.Believe whatever the effing hell you want to,spew any sort of nonsense your heart pleases to......I for one will not intervene ever again.

Meanwhile,enjoy your not so slow descend into insanity!!

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> For starters, I have had enough of you so had to report the post. Better learn some manners before indulging in an argument, i.e. if you know how to conduct one. You have depicted a very bad picture of indian members on thi sforum by this absurd post of yours.
> 
> Your use of foul language shows where you come from, nothing hidden here.
> 
> 
> this is the reactive armour on DRDO post, used on T-72 (K-1 clone unless you are blind or something)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun ERA cover, see the tiles? they are NOT NERA acn cannot be due to turret limitations in design,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> compared with Bhishma, same dimensions, same size, K-5 ERA, also notice the galcis on both tanks..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lastly, you id**t, NEAR is basically a part of composite armour, just a component, few tiles sandwiched between other metallic/ non metallic materials. Your showing of a few marketing pics only means that Kanchan composite armour has NERA layer (s), not fitted on the outer turret which would be absurd on part of designers (have they not done too much absurdity with Arjun already?).
> 
> for instance, see Leo -2 NERA layered cover..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> got it? no? see again, Polish NERA inserts explained..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the purpose of using NERA is by no means to defeat the incoming apfsds or HEAT round, but to reduce the velocity by obstructing it with materials of different density, material thickness and hardness.
> 
> Lastly, no body said Hydroas is inferior to torsion bar you idiot, you have comprehension issue or what? I said it depends upon REQUIREMENTS, guess you work at DRDO who does not know the difference of requirements and qualities. What is the best out there, may not be feasible for some, its is simple logic. Go and argue Germans why they opted for Torsion bars instead of mighty hydrogas suspension
> 
> Hope you get it under your thick skinned head now



All because it looks like K 5,its Clone ? I stopped reading after you come up with this BS

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## bloo

GORKHALI said:


> All because it looks like K 5,its Clone ? I stopped reading after you come up with this BS



Exactly, he can judge an ERA panel just by looking at the picture i.e. without looking what's inside.
What a clairvoyant......

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## kingdurgaking

he-man said:


> Don't care..........i am all for hot stuff


buy a oven


----------



## Dazzler

bloo said:


> Exactly, he can judge an ERA panel just by looking at the picture i.e. without looking what's inside.
> What a clairvoyant......



you guys are immature and unable to grasp things. waste of time


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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> you guys are immature



Look who is talking..

Responding to user requirements of providing additional protection to tank, DRDO has developed an ERA system, which effectively reduces penetration of Milan 2 shaped charge warhead to the extent of 70 per cent. 

The ERA developed by DRDO is a sandwich of explosive and metal plates. The panels of ERA are assembled in metallic containers. When the jet of a shaped charge warhead hits ERA panel, explosive in it detonates. As a result, the plates are accelerated and start moving outward in normal direction. The moving plates and the detonaters render the jet ineffective which loses its penetration capability.

Based on RDX,* a special type of sheet explosive has also been developed for ERA*.This sheet explosive is waterproof. It is not cap sensitive and also quite insensitive to frition, impact and heat. However, it gets initiated by a shaped-charge jet.

*The ERA technology has met all the requirements of the user and was accepted for introduction into the Indian Army. The production of ERA panels has commenced in the Ordnance factories. *

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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> If these bull sh*t is really what you believe in,then I fear I've got nothing to argue with you because I for one never argue with a fool.Believe whatever the effing hell you want to,spew any sort of nonsense your heart pleases to......I for one will not intervene ever again.
> 
> Meanwhile,enjoy your not so slow descend into insanity!!



so after all what i explained in my post, this is what u came up with. great going, waiting for ur next attempt


----------



## The A-5

bloo said:


> Exactly, he can judge an ERA panel just by looking at the picture i.e. without looking what's inside.
> What a clairvoyant......



While I'm not sure what is used on the turret (on the glacis, I think it has to be DPA), I would say the looks
are irrelevant - what matters is the material composition inside. The looks/dimensions are moulded accordingly
to the tank's size & geometry.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Look who is talking..
> 
> Responding to user requirements of providing additional protection to tank, DRDO has developed an ERA system, which effectively reduces penetration of Milan 2 shaped charge warhead to the extent of 70 per cent.
> 
> The ERA developed by DRDO is a sandwich of explosive and metal plates. The panels of ERA are assembled in metallic containers. When the jet of a shaped charge warhead hits ERA panel, explosive in it detonates. As a result, the plates are accelerated and start moving outward in normal direction. The moving plates and the detonaters render the jet ineffective which loses its penetration capability.
> 
> Based on RDX,* a special type of sheet explosive has also been developed for ERA*.This sheet explosive is waterproof. It is not cap sensitive and also quite insensitive to frition, impact and heat. However, it gets initiated by a shaped-charge jet.
> 
> *The ERA technology has met all the requirements of the user and was accepted for introduction into the Indian Army. The production of ERA panels has commenced in the Ordnance factories. *



the argument was whether arjun has nera inserts within era like boxes, did u even read??

the description is standard k-1 class era made under tot by drdo, nothing special about it



GORKHALI said:


> All because it looks like K 5,its Clone ? I stopped reading after you come up with this BS



simply because what followed, was beyond ur understanding.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> the argument was whether arjun has nera inserts within era like boxes, did u even read??



Your argument is that 'those aren't dynamic passive armour,but ERA,and a copy of K 5'.








Dazzler said:


> made under tot by drd



DRDO doesn't make these..


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Your argument is that 'those aren't dynamic passive armour,but ERA,and a copy of K 5'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO doesn't make these..


NO man, my argument is that the pics and description of shown dynamic passive armor is housed with turret cavity, and a part of composite structure. the external plates are ERA akin to K-5.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> NO man, my argument is that the pics and description of shown dynamic passive armor is housed with turret cavity, and a part of composite structure. the external plates are ERA akin to K-5.



Hmm..that picture I gave is from a DRDO publication


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Your argument is that 'those aren't dynamic passive armour,but ERA,and a copy of K 5'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO doesn't make these..


the era pic in my orevious post was taken from drdo website


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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> the is taken from drdo website



You need link ?


----------



## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> You need link ?



read edited post, was talking about era pic i posted


----------



## Omega007

Guys,seems like our @Dazzler has completely lost it.He thinks that "passive dynamic armor arrays" or NERA/NExRA can only be used in the vehicle base armor cavity and can not be used as add on modules!!

He doesn't seem to realise that NERA as like any laminate armor also come in different shapes and sizes of add on modules.It could either be in the form of wage shaped arrays we see on the Leopard 2 models from the A5 onwards or it could be formed as cassettes/tiles like ERA panels as is used over the glacis plate of Arjun MkII.

There is simply no point left to argue with him on this matter.Let him remain entitled to his personal opinions and move on,that'd be best course of action to be taken judging by the way the discussion is moving towards.

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## Mujraparty

gslv mk3 said:


> Your argument is that 'those aren't dynamic passive armour,but ERA,and a copy of K 5'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO doesn't make these..



here's the source of that pic ..good read ..
Armour Protection and Affordable Protection for Futuristic Combat Vehicles | Madhu | Defence Science Journal

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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Guys,seems like our @Dazzler has completely lost it.He thinks that "passive dynamic armor arrays" or NERA/NExRA can only be used in the vehicle base armor cavity and can not be used as add on modules!!
> 
> He doesn't seem to realise that NERA as like any laminate armor also come in different shapes and sizes of add on modules.It could either be in the form of wage shaped arrays we see on the Leopard 2 models from the A5 onwards or it could be formed as cassettes/tiles like ERA panels as is used over the glacis plate of Arjun MkII.
> 
> There is simply no point left to argue with him on this matter.Let him remain entitled to his personal opinions and move on,that'd be best course of action to be taken judging by the way the discussion is moving towards.



the argument is arjun specific, u need to learn a thing or two about your own mbt, there is no nera plates on arjun externally, the plates visible in pics on glacis are covered with metal case where era can be added. see the pics, on the turret, those are era cassettes. th point being, nera in arjun acts as a part of composite armour. regarding leo 2 nera and composite, there is no comparison, one has both sides of frontal turret covered with 600+mm armour, the other is half vacant turret.

your posts have confirmed my suspicion, problems in understanding simple things. sigh



eowyn said:


> here's the source of that pic ..good read ..
> Armour Protection and Affordable Protection for Futuristic Combat Vehicles | Madhu | Defence Science Journal



dont u get it? passive armour IS composite armour, era cassettes are active protection with explosives within. the difference between passive and active is a mile apart.


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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> the argument is arjun specific, u need to learn a thing or two about your own mbt, there is no nera plates on arjun externally, the plates visible in pics on glacis are covered with metal case where era can be added. see the pics, on the turret, those are era cassettes. th point being, nera in arjun acts as a part of composite armour. regarding leo 2 nera and composite, there is no comparison, one has both sides of frontal turret covered with 600+mm armour, the other is half vacant turret.
> 
> your posts have confirmed my suspicion, problems in understanding simple things. sigh




Blabber as much as you want moron,I don't give a flying fu*k.Everyone here by now has got it very clearly who has got "problems in understanding simple things".

And what was that about 600mm bs??!!The Leo 2s from A5 onwards have base armor LOS thickness of 900+ mm or so.And that "half vacant" turret has got 40% greater LOS thickness on your super-sexy AKs!!So that makes your AKs what??

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## bloo

Dazzler said:


> the argument is arjun specific, u need to learn a thing or two about your own mbt, there is no nera plates on arjun externally, the plates visible in pics on glacis are covered with metal case where era can be added. see the pics, on the turret, those are era cassettes. th point being, nera in arjun acts as a part of composite armour. regarding leo 2 nera and composite, there is no comparison, one has both sides of frontal turret covered with 600+mm armour, the other is half vacant turret.
> 
> your posts have confirmed my suspicion, problems in understanding simple things. sigh
> 
> 
> 
> dont u get it? passive armour IS composite armour, era cassettes are active protection with explosives within. the difference between passive and active is a mile apart.



Your rebuttal is still nothing more than a wild guess from a few pictures on the net.

As I said earlier the NERA is not of a slat style but a honey comb fashioned one; similar if not same like the Chobam. Thus it can be placed in between plates.........and your point becomes moot.


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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Blabber as much as you want moron,I don't give a flying fu*k.Everyone here by now has got it very clearly who has got "problems in understanding simple things".
> 
> And what was that about 600mm bs??!!The Leo 2s from A5 onwards have base armor LOS thickness of 900+ mm or so.And that "half vacant" turret has got 40% greater LOS thickness on your super-sexy AKs!!So that makes your AKs what??



a person who runs out of words, comes down to abuses, belongs to the highest degree of hypocrite 

I really don't want to end up in another x vs y comparison debate, you are an insecure individual as your despererate posts reflect, bringing AK and what not in the argument, only to prove that Arjun is a perfect little mbt which it is not, off course, no system is, but no system has as many loopholes as Arjun either. I have exposed it plenty of times, not going to follow suit again.

One tip for you though, don't go into fantasy statistics by ersakthivel, he is a Gopher, one who knows s**t about armour, has been busted plenty a times by many, his charts (if you call them charts, or what ever they are) are so stupid, it is not even laughable. The man once claimed Arjun's frontal armor to be as thick as 1100mm, goodness !

Show me, which angle or LOS goes as thick on Arjun? please go ahead

The reality, from your beloved forum... worst example of fluctuating frontal armor, by STGN, you see the difference in both sides is almost twice the thickness !






thanks to a poorly incorporated optics/ sighting system, Arjun has lost HALF of its frontal LOS thickness, horrible planning by the makers !

Leo-2 early variants had the same weakness, guess what, the first thing they addressed was the position of optics/ sights cavity, moved it further back, added plenty of armour to match the thickness of other side, made it uniform. You dont see it in Arjun, the armor block behind the optics is not more than 450-500mm in thickness, worse, it cant even house ERA tiles since the optics will be blocked, just horrible.

Instead of blaberring and abusing, it would be better of you brought some valid arguments, i.e. if you have any. 



bloo said:


> Your rebuttal is still nothing more than a wild guess from a few pictures on the net.
> 
> As I said earlier the NERA is not of a slat style but a honey comb fashioned one; similar if not same like the Chobam. Thus it can be placed in between plates.........and your point becomes moot.



i cant help a naive person, stay in your world

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## HariPrasad

Omega007 said:


> The tiles on the glacis plates are not ERA,those are NERA tiles.



How do they function. ERA explodes and munimize the strike effect. How does NERA wrok?



he-man said:


> As if we have a world beater here............we have just arrived at the scene,it will take some time
> 
> 
> 
> Na man,,i am not looking for trouble.
> I just don't like the design,,,whats big deal about it??
> 
> Compare it to merkava,challenger,leopard or japanese type 10(god i love that tank) and even u would agree.
> Now we may take some time to get to their level of design,,lets hope we get there soon



FMBT with newly designed palne cockpit like cabin with high automation and only 2 member crew and light weight with high mobility is coming . Please wait.


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## Dazzler

HariPrasad said:


> How do they function. ERA explodes and munimize the strike effect. How does NERA wrok?



NERA, as the name suggests, is Non Energetic Reactive Armor, unlike an Explosive armour, NERA is made up of non metallic materials mostly, or non metallic and metallic mixed in some cases. high quality flexible rubber is also used in the NERA composition but it is not a given. The prime purpose of a NERA is to reduce the density of incoming apfsds penetrator by letting it through different layers of various thickness/ flexibility and density.

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## HariPrasad

he-man said:


> I just don't like the design,,,whats big deal about it??




What do mean by design. Are you referring to shape or any particular aspact of design which may hinder its fighting capability?


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## Omega007

@Dazzler ,dude,you really think that you're adding something new here??Do you really believe I'm not aware of the GMS (gunner's main sight) placement issue??
Listen man,there is NO COMPOSITE armor behind the GMS,instead DRDO has placed a ~460mm thick solid block of hardened heavy metal alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6 - meaning a 10 cm thick plate of that material has same ballistic resistance as a 16cm RHA plate has.It's more than enough to handle all current and future FSAPDS rounds in our neighbourhood.And the army would've definitely sought modification if they thought it was such big a issue as it is made out to be.

Besides,it's a very small window at the right upper corner of the turret.Good luck hitting that place at 2000 yards.

Even I could tell that AK has a partially exposed roof from front angle and its turret sides are particularly vulnerable even from frontal ark.Even worse,AK till now doesn't sport a hardened mantlet mask!!Each and every one of these are much more glaring gaps in AK's protection compared to the GMS of Arjun;but do the Indians make a big fuss all the time??No,because these have been discussed more than once before and they no longer present anything valuable........other than stupid d!ck measuring to satisfy someone's ego.So now lets give it a rest.

And yeah,110cm was plain exaggeration on Kunal's part,I told him that myself over there.But 950mm is almost correct,even Dejawolf and militarysta now somewhat agree with that figure after Kunal posted his measured pictures he took during Defexpo 14.

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## sms

Dazzler said:


> the argument is arjun specific, u need to learn a thing or two about your own mbt, there is no nera plates on arjun externally, the plates visible in pics on glacis are covered with metal case where era can be added. see the pics, on the turret, those are era cassettes. th point being, nera in arjun acts as a part of composite armour. regarding leo 2 nera and composite, there is no comparison, one has both sides of frontal turret covered with 600+mm armour, the other is half vacant turret.
> 
> your posts have confirmed my suspicion, problems in understanding simple things. sigh
> 
> dont u get it? passive armour IS composite armour, era cassettes are active protection with explosives within. the difference between passive and active is a mile apart.



I've always understood that ERA or NERA are both type of passive protection both lat ideal waiting for something to hit. One of them react (explode) to shock created by incoming projectile and other just absorb it.

Active protection is some thing that senses the incoming projectile and takes actions to eliminate threat before it van hit the tank surface. It requires sensor, trigger device and charges to be released to destroy to deflect incoming projectile. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong


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## nik22

@Dazzler , like for keeping your cool


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## Omega007

sms said:


> I've always understood that ERA or NERA are both type of passive protection both lat ideal waiting for something to hit. One of them react (explode) to shock created by incoming projectile and other just absorb it.
> 
> Active protection is some thing that senses the incoming projectile and takes actions to eliminate threat before it van hit the tank surface. It requires sensor, trigger device and charges to be released to destroy to deflect incoming projectile.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong



No.Just a glance at their names should be enough to understand that ERA and NERA are not passive armors,but they are types of "reactivating" armors.ERA - Explosive Reactivating Armor and NERA/NExRA - Non Energetic/Explosive Reactivating Armor. Armor Both ERA and NERA/NExRA falls under subclass of dynamic armor,they are not "passive" armor like the ceramic based ones.

Dynamic in the sense that in this case,when a projectile hits these types of armors,its components do not remain stationery like that of other types of armors.The components either detonate upon impact and destroy/disrupt the penetrators or metal jets from shaped charges (in case of ERA) or in case of NERA/NExRA,they do not explode,instead their components bulges back and forth upon impact and thus disrupts the projectiles.

Now,a single layer of ERA is always more effective than a single layer of NERA/NExRA,that's why the later has to employed with multiple layers.So generally,NERA is bulkier and space inefficient compared to ERA.But on the other hand,NERA is far safer to handle and most importantly, can take multiple hits,especially against shaped charges unlike ERA which are single use only.

This should suffice for now.I shall post some more detailed info on the working principles of NERA/NExRA with marked diagrams and X-ray pictures from tests at a later date.

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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> @Dazzler ,dude,you really think that you're adding something new here??Do you really believe I'm not aware of the GMS (gunner's main sight) placement issue??
> Listen man,there is NO COMPOSITE armor behind the GMS,instead DRDO has placed a ~460mm thick solid block of hardened heavy metal alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6 - meaning a 10 cm thick plate of that material has same ballistic resistance as a 16cm RHA plate has.It's more than enough to handle all current and future FSAPDS rounds in our neighbourhood.And the army would've definitely sought modification if they thought it was such big a issue as it is made out to be.
> 
> Besides,it's a very small window at the right upper corner of the turret.Good luck hitting that place at 2000 yards.
> 
> Even I could tell that AK has a partially exposed roof from front angle and its turret sides are particularly vulnerable even from frontal ark.Even worse,AK till now doesn't sport a hardened mantlet mask!!Each and every one of these are much more glaring gaps in AK's protection compared to the GMS of Arjun;but do the Indians make a big fuss all the time??No,because these have been discussed more than once before and they no longer present anything valuable........other than stupid d!ck measuring to satisfy someone's ego.So now lets give it a rest.
> 
> And yeah,110cm was plain exaggeration on Kunal's part,I told him that myself over there.But 950mm is almost correct,even Dejawolf and militarysta now somewhat agree with that figure after Kunal posted his measured pictures he took during Defexpo 14.



u cant stay away from indulging into competition can you 

first, the very concept of thickness efficiency is a comforting term for a side that can barely house more armour beside 450mm due to default design flaw. so there goes your argument of thickness efficiency.

second, the composite armour is better in terms of protection compared to a monoblock semi hardened, rolled homogenous or even high hardened steel armour, why? simply because composite armour is a mix of varying materials with varying charactaristics that can more likely disable a penetrator.

your biggest misconception is the last part, your neighbour has more than 560mm capable penetrators, the naiza du rod does more than 560mm @ 2000m.


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## Water Car Engineer

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2014/august_14.pdf

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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


> http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2014/august_14.pdf


Great news


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## kṣamā

Now that's a Block Buster !!!

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## bloo

> The PCB projectile has lethal capability of penetrating 500 mm thick RCC wall in more than 1.5 km range. The electromechanical fuze of ammunition functions only after sensing the impact at a predetermined delay. The projectile contains 2.6 kg high explosive, which generates 0.2 kg/cm^2 peak over pressure around point
> of burst. The fuze has self-destruction capability. The ammunition is so accurate that it can engage 1 m x 1 m
> target at a range of 1 km


*awesome*

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## trident2010

Great going !!


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Indischer

Water Car Engineer said:


>


AMk1 in a new camo?


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## Water Car Engineer

Indischer said:


> AMk1 in a new camo?



Yeah, dont know if it's going to be something more common though.



> Mobile Camouflage System
> The MCS provides multi-spectral signature
> management for the AFVs to protect the vehicle against
> all sensors and smart munitions. The performance
> evaluation trials of MCS have been conducted at MFFR
> and system has been integrated in the Arjun MBT.



http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2014/TF_April_2014_WEB.pdf



> DRDO is also co-developing the Mobile Camouflaging System (MCS) technology along with a Gurgaon-based private sector defence manufacturer Barracuda Camouflaging Limited. The MCS has been developed by DRDO to help the tank reduce the threat of interference from all types of sensors and smart munitions of the enemy in the tank's systems.



ARJUN MAIN BATTLE TANK FOR INDIA ~ ZOETNETO

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## Indischer

Water Car Engineer said:


> Yeah, dont know if it's going to be something more common though.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2014/TF_April_2014_WEB.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ARJUN MAIN BATTLE TANK FOR INDIA ~ ZOETNETO



And ALWACS continues to stick out of the silhouette like a Boss.  Why can't they embed some of those sensors into the turret better?


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## Water Car Engineer

Barracuda Camouflaging Limited's parent company.

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## Alfa-Fighter

any chance to having Israeli Anti-ATGM system trophy ??


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## ANPP

Alfa-Fighter said:


> any chance to having Israeli Anti-ATGM system trophy ??


 
Last time they were talking about Swedish one.


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## Abingdonboy

Alfa-Fighter said:


> any chance to having Israeli Anti-ATGM system trophy ??


There is a chance either the Trophy or Iron fist will make its way onto the Arjun.



ANPP said:


> Last time they were talking about Swedish one.


The Swedish ones were for the T-90s.



Indischer said:


> AMk1 in a new camo?


The Barracuda camouflage system has been bought by the IA for all their Arjuns and should become standard within the year.

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## Bhasad Singh Mundi

Abingdonboy said:


> There is a chance either the Trophy or Iron fist will make its way onto the Arjun.
> 
> 
> The Swedish ones were for the T-90s.
> 
> 
> The Barracuda camouflage system has been bought by the IA for all their Arjuns and should become standard within the year.



Iron fist?? Have you seen the launcher size?


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## Gessler

Bursting the Kontakt-5 bubble...






Apparently, the ERA Mk-II is developed with the intention of providing a common ERA system for Arjun, T-90, and T-72 MBTs.
What is seen on the Arjun Mk-2 prototypes is NOT the Russian K-5, but an equivalent designed & developed by DRDO.

Now, why they had to develop an indigenous equivalent is anyone's guess - probably cost benefits & other pluses of
local manufacturing.

However, while the performance is matched, the material composition may be different. Furthermore, the overall armor
layout of Arjun Mk-2 is significantly different to T-90/72. The inclusion of newly developed DPA being one of the prime
contributors, other than the improved Kanchan CLA which is the base.

@Omega007 @Dazzler

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## Gessler



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## Dazzler

Gessler said:


>



standard stuff really, last pic is ammo racks, not a separate ammo compartment, second generation thermal imager, most likely Catherine TI,

the worrying part is till there..the exposed right side frontal arc..

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## Water Car Engineer

> Additionally, the DAC tomorrow, chaired by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, will likely clear a chunky deal to medium refit six of the Indian Navy's remaining nine Kilo-class attack submarines with new sonars on three of those, a follow-on deal for 118 indigenous *Arjun Mk.2 tanks and 40 Arjun Catapult self-propelled artillery systems.*



Source: Choppers, Tanks, Artillery: Major Indian Arms Deals Likely To Be Cleared Tomorrow


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## bhangi bava

Dazzler said:


> standard stuff really, last pic is ammo racks, not a separate ammo compartment, second generation thermal imager, most likely Catherine TI,
> 
> the worrying part is till there..the exposed right side frontal arc..
> 
> View attachment 45480


design is already changed arjun MK2 from defense expo 2014


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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> standard stuff really, last pic is ammo racks, not a separate ammo compartment, second generation thermal imager, most likely Catherine TI,
> 
> the worrying part is till there..the exposed right side frontal arc..
> 
> View attachment 45480




You don't need to show your 'worry' too much,Arjun can take care of itself.




















This picture is proof enough that the current Arjun can very well withstand the ill effects of ammunition cook-off.You better worry about your AKs.If its ammunition compartment takes a hit somehow,it will turn into from this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Al-Khalid_IDEAS_2012.jpg
to
http://static.flickr.com/40/87294206_bd3e168a5e.jpg

So better save your thoughts for your tanks and crews.

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## Storm Force

Arjun looks amazing.

We have ordered 248.

I want see a day when we have 2480


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## Astra-2013

Dazzler said:


> standard stuff really, last pic is ammo racks, not a separate ammo compartment, second generation thermal imager, most likely Catherine TI,
> 
> the worrying part is till there..the exposed right side frontal arc..
> 
> View attachment 45480



That was just a testing prototype, and they were testing some new upgrades on that
final product is this

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## IND151

Omega007 said:


> You don't need to show your 'worry' too much,Arjun can take care of itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This picture is proof enough that the current Arjun can very well withstand the ill effects of ammunition cook-off.You better worry about your AKs.If its ammunition compartment takes a hit somehow,it will turn into from this:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Al-Khalid_IDEAS_2012.jpg
> to
> http://static.flickr.com/40/87294206_bd3e168a5e.jpg
> 
> So better save your thoughts for your tanks and crews.



What are that things looking like dial?


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## GORKHALI

IND151 said:


> What are that things looking like dial?


Sealed Ammo store.

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## Omega007

IND151 said:


> What are that things looking like dial?



Seals/armored lids of the ammunition chambers,so that if the ammo compartment takes a hit and the ammo start to deflagerate,the burning propellant doesn't move inside the crew compartment and fry the crew to death along with the tank.

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> standard stuff really, last pic is ammo racks, not a separate ammo compartment, second generation thermal imager, most likely Catherine TI,
> 
> the worrying part is till there..the exposed right side frontal arc..
> 
> View attachment 45480


Don't worry they are coming up with something to armour cover for optics or radar,its still in testing phase till then enjoy a "transparent" trial.

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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> You don't need to show your 'worry' too much,Arjun can take care of itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This picture is proof enough that the current Arjun can very well withstand the ill effects of ammunition cook-off.You better worry about your AKs.If its ammunition compartment takes a hit somehow,it will turn into from this:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Al-Khalid_IDEAS_2012.jpg
> to
> http://static.flickr.com/40/87294206_bd3e168a5e.jpg
> 
> So better save your thoughts for your tanks and crews.



you are proving to be more idiot than i thought, most modern mbts can survive ammo cook off, the problem was closely seen first in t-64s with 6ets and t-72s with AZ autoloaders, where ammo blew off while taking the turret with it. Even old T-55s didnt have the turret blown issue as there was no carousel based ammo storage. 

The point being, in case of ammo cook off, the tank may sruvive, but the crew does not. 

Lastly, if you brought alkhalid in this discussion once more, i will let you have it.

@Oscar @Manticore dont blame me ok 



GORKHALI said:


> Don't worry they are coming up with something to armour cover for optics or radar,its still in testing phase till then enjoy a "transparent" trial.



on the contrary, ARJUN's weaknesses are worrying sign for the user, pleasure for the enemy.

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## Abingdonboy

Dazzler said:


> on the contrary, ARJUN's weaknesses are worrying sign for the user, pleasure for the enemy.


The "weaknesses" are so minor, overall the Arjun Mk.2 is some one hell of a MBT I don't see how any adversary could possibly take pleasure in seeing it is coming along...


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## kbd-raaf

Dazzler said:


> you are proving to be more idiot than i thought.



Wow, is he 'more idiot'? :O


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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Seals/armored lids of the ammunition chambers,so that if the ammo compartment takes a hit and the ammo start to deflagerate,the burning propellant doesn't move inside the crew compartment and fry the crew to death along with the tank.





Abingdonboy said:


> The "weaknesses" are so minor, overall the Arjun Mk.2 is some one hell of a MBT I don't see how any adversary could possibly take pleasure in seeing it is coming along...



read my previous posts in this thread to discover how minor weaknesses end up being major in the battlefield. If Arjun was so desirable, IA would have straight away placed an adequate order, not a "trial" one. IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.

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## manojb

Dazzler said:


> read my previous posts in this thread to discover how minor weaknesses major in the battlefield. If Arjun was so desirable, IA would have straight away placed an adequate order, not a "trial" one. IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.


@Dazzler
what's your opinion about Type99 chinese tank?


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## Genesis

manojb said:


> @Dazzler
> what's your opinion about Type99 chinese tank?


You have to look at the roles of each tank, China has 2,500 type 96 tanks, they proven themselves in the Tank competition in Russia by having far superior fire power, but also protection which wasn't on show. 

The 96 has a weakness in engines which was due to lack of tech in the 90s, but also to reduce price. Which is very important.


We consider price to be a very big thing, you can't mass produce something that's too expensive to build and to maintain. 

The type 99 is about a couple of million dollars, at most the latest models may reach about 3.5 million, that we have 700+ right now, most likely more.

Can we build a better tank? Yes, but costs is very important, if you do too much here you have to cut back else where. Right now even China has major holes that we need to plug.


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## Dazzler

manojb said:


> @Dazzler
> what's your opinion about Type99 chinese tank?



i would dearly go into details, but it will derail the thread. Simple put, Type-99 has seen serious revamps in its lifetime, from electronics, fire control, engine in particular was a big hassle, but overall it stands as a worthy opponent. 

Recent examples such as Type-99A2s are formidable adversaries, having new armour modules, improved gun, fcs and auto tracking, new generation thermal imagers (still 2nd gen when compared to EU thermal imagers), longer apfsds penetrators can ensure not many tanks in the region challenge it. Overall, type-99 series is a better weapon system than Russian T-90 series. 

Back to topic

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dazzler said:


> i would dearly go into details, but it will derail the thread. Simple put, Type-99 has seen serious revamps in its lifetime, from electronics, fire control, engine in particular was a big hassle, but overall it stands as a worthy opponent.
> 
> Recent examples such as Type-99A2s are formidable adversaries, having new armour modules, improved gun, fcs and auto tracking, new generation thermal imagers (still 2nd gen when compared to EU thermal imagers), longer apfsds penetrators can ensure not many tanks in the region challenge it. Overall, type-99 series is a better weapon system than Russian T-90 series.
> 
> Back to topic



bro ... you opinion needed here:

Pakistan Army testing MBT-3000 next moth ? | Page 3


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## Abingdonboy

Dazzler said:


> IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.


I categorically deny that notion entirely. The Mk.1 has outperformed the IA's top-end tank the T-90S across the board s no dobt the improved version of such (Mk.2) is going to be more desirable than the tank they have placed orders for 1000+

The things putting off the IA are simple:

a) Price (at $8-10 MILLION each they are VERY expensive and amongst the most expensive MBTs ever made and available today as such it makes sense for the IA to stagger orders over a few years as more funds become available as out of its Cap Ex budget the IA just doesn't have $5 BILLION+ for a full 700+ Arjun order).
b) it is CONSIDERABLY heavier than any MBT the IA has ever used. The IA's entire infrastructure and logistics are built around medium weight Russian MBTs. The Arjun is a VERY different beast- it is a heavy class (60+ tons) MBT built more with a Western design ethos. It is going to take a while for the IA to get to grips with it.

The IA is used to the Russian Medium weight MBTs, adopting the heavy class Arjun represents a cataclysmic operational shift for them, one that will take a LONG time to get to terms with. They need to create and let's not forget this isn't an off the shelf product from abroad where all such operational procedures, logistical chains, spares etc are known and in place and available in an instant. This is an indigenous product that is a first of its kind in India, the IA and DRDO are still learning as they go along.

It makes sense to go for the T-90S to address the Modern MBT needs for the short term as the Arjun gets up an running in the IA.

The Arjun will end up in 700-900 units (both Mk.1 and Mk.2) within the IA and all such orders should be placed by 2018 (over 1000 Arjun chassis will be produced as the IA will also be buying a few hundred BLTs and Arty systems based on the Arjun chassis) before the IA turns its attention to the FMBT at the start of the next decade. 

For a $7-10MN USD a piece tank that is a very healthy order book!

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## Dazzler

Abingdonboy said:


> I categorically deny that notion entirely. The Mk.1 has outperformed the IA's top-end tank the T-90S across the board s no dobt the improved version of such (Mk.2) is going to be more desirable than the tank they have placed orders for 1000+
> 
> The things putting off the IA are simple:
> 
> a) Price (at $8-10 MILLION each they are VERY expensive and amongst the most expensive MBTs ever made and available today as such it makes sense for the IA to stagger orders over a few years as more funds become available as out of its Cap Ex budget the IA just doesn't have $5 BILLION+ for a full 700+ Arjun order).
> b) it is CONSIDERABLY heavier than any MBT the IA has ever used. The IA's entire infrastructure and logistics are built around medium weight Russian MBTs. The Arjun is a VERY different beast- it is a heavy class (60+ tons) MBT built more with a Western design ethos. It is going to take a while for the IA to get to grips with it.
> 
> The IA is used to the Russian Medium weight MBTs, adopting the heavy class Arjun represents a cataclysmic operational shift for them, one that will take a LONG time to get to terms with. They need to create and let's not forget this isn't an off the shelf product from abroad where all such operational procedures, logistical chains, spares etc are known and in place and available in an instant. This is an indigenous product that is a first of its kind in India, the IA and DRDO are still learning as they go along.
> 
> It makes sense to go for the T-90S to address the Modern MBT needs for the short term as the Arjun gets up an running in the IA.
> 
> The Arjun will end up in 700-900 units (both Mk.1 and Mk.2) within the IA and all such orders should be placed by 2018 (over 1000 Arjun chassis will be produced as the IA will also be buying a few hundred BLTs and Arty systems based on the Arjun chassis) before the IA turns its attention to the FMBT at the start of the next decade.
> 
> For a $7-10MN USD a piece tank that is a very healthy order book!



in your patriotic rhetoric you forgot to mention one little aspect, the very formidable and outstanding Arjun is in the making by DRDO for almost 40 years, has no foreseeable future, has less worth to the primary user than a T-90 that itself is far from state of the art in the 21st century as it is essentially a beefed up T-72B.

You sound like DRDO is Krauss Wegmann or General Dynamics Land Systems, churning out M1Axx or Leo-2xx that are so advanced that IA having operated the "obsolete" T-90s will get used to it.

What next, US and Germany replacing their mbt fleet with Arjun?

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## Abingdonboy

Dazzler said:


> in your patriotic rhetoric you forgot to mention one little aspect, the very formidable and outstanding Arjun is in the making by DRDO for almost 40 years, has no foreseeable future, has less worth to the primary user than a T-90 that itself is far from state of the art in the 21st century as it is essentially a beefed up T-72B.
> 
> You sound like DRDO is Krauss Wegmann or General Dynamics Land Systems, churning out M1Axx or Leo-2xx that are so advanced that IA having operated the "obsolete" T-90s will get used to it.
> 
> What next, US and Germany replacing their mbt fleet with Arjun?


How many Arjuns need to be ordered by the IA before you shut up for good about the Arjun being a "failure" hmm?

Oh by the way, thanks for not actually giving a valid criticism of my pretty extensive reasoning behind why the IA has ordered so few to date (something you use as ammo to attack the Arjun program). I can see a lot of thinking went into your post mr "think tank".

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## Dazzler

Abingdonboy said:


> How many Arjuns need to be ordered by the IA before you shut up for good about the Arjun being a "failure" hmm?
> 
> Oh by the way, thanks for not actually giving a valid criticism of my pretty extensive reasoning behind why the IA has ordered so few to date (something you use as ammo to attack the Arjun program). I can see a lot of thinking went into your post mr "think tank".



calling failure a failure is my theme, whats is yours, aal iz well?

i have given very realistic and rational criticism of Arjun, the key to success is to understand your strengths and weaknesses and work to address it appropriately. IA knows this, they are going to use the damn thing, DRDO are shoving a faulty equipment in their throat, when they shout, you guys criticise them.

Mate, DRDO had no foundation for developing a complex weapon system such as a main battle tank yet the "made in india" fantasy pushed them to go for the impossible.

This is where they let themselves down, the IA down, and allowed the world to use their shortcomings. I can go on and on but rest for later.

Just one thing, you try to run before learning to walk, fall becomes your destiny. DRDO's failures are a price that IA is paying dearly. Russians sell you obsolete tank ammo at three times the original price, and you buy it, why? False pride is a bad thing you know.

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> read my previous posts in this thread to discover how minor weaknesses end up being major in the battlefield. If Arjun was so desirable, IA would have straight away placed an adequate order, not a "trial" one. IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.


Arey Chacha.....IA will straight forward end up buying 500-700 Arjun Mk2 as Mk2 is still in trial need more refinement with upgrades. Recently it *An advanced laser warning countermeasure system and a mobile camouflage system have recently been tested and proven on the Arjun MBT MkII in the Mahajan Field Firing Range in Rajasthan*.* During recent trials, the ALWCS was integrated with the Arjun's integrated fire control system.*






IA also now started showing interest in Arjun based platform for artilleries and bridges.

Tabhi bolte hai khud se kuch banyoge toh malum chalega,you can twist it as per your requirement .Till then eat this -*118 Arjun Mark II Main Battle Tanks* and *40 Arjun Catapult 130-mm Self-Propelled Artillery Systems *by the Defence Research Development Organisation and Ordinance Factories Board has been ordered *including train carriage and Arjun chassis based recovery vehicle.Now where is AL KHALID based Artillery ,Bridges etc etc.*
Govt scraps Rs 6,000-cr tender for Light Utility Helicopters | Business Line



Abingdonboy said:


> How many Arjuns need to be ordered by the IA before you shut up for good about the Arjun being a "failure" hmm?
> 
> Oh by the way, thanks for not actually giving a valid criticism of my pretty extensive reasoning behind why the IA has ordered so few to date (something you use as ammo to attack the Arjun program). I can see a lot of thinking went into your post mr "think tank".


Bro!!The problem in ordering Arjun in lot is that current Infrastructure for this is as per Medium weight tank like Train carriage,bridge layer tanks,recovery tanks all of them based on T72 derivatives and that goes around 3000.Reason for IA ordering Arjun in small batches now so that it can absorbs the new infrastructures and strategies without disturbing the current strategy revolving around T72. Also no more love with Russian maal it seems after Smerch incident.

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## Omega007

Hey @Abingdonboy , don't you have some better things to than wasting your time on this little prick??!!Trust me dude,it's not worth your time.We whack his @rse all the time on D.F.I.



Dazzler said:


> read my previous posts in this thread to discover how minor weaknesses end up being major in the battlefield. If Arjun was so desirable, IA would have straight away placed an adequate order, not a "trial" one. IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.


 
Who needs to read your bs anyway??We all know your reasoning has already been clouded by all the propaganda shit you guys are fed all the time.Remember the Abrams failing in Pakistan bull crap and the bashing you and your fellow received at D.F.I??So where is the need to hear whatever bs you has to say??You guys are simply incapable of objective discussion.


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## SrNair

Dazzler said:


> calling failure a failure is my theme, whats is yours, aal iz well?
> 
> i have given very realistic and rational criticism of Arjun, the key to success is to understand your strengths and weaknesses and work to address it appropriately. IA knows this, they are going to use the damn thing, DRDO are shoving a faulty equipment in their throat, when they shout, you guys criticise them.
> 
> Mate, DRDO had no foundation for developing a complex weapon system such as a main battle tank yet the "made in india" fantasy pushed them to go for the impossible.
> 
> This is where they let themselves down, the IA down, and allowed the world to use their shortcomings. I can go on and on but rest for later.
> 
> Just one thing, you try to run before learning to walk, fall becomes your destiny. DRDO's failures are a price that IA is paying dearly. Russians sell you obsolete tank ammo at three times the original price, and you buy it, why? False pride is a bad thing you know.



Sorry I disagree with this.
Till now IA main tanks are from Russia .So IA basic tank infrastructure and maintainence is always concerned with these Russian systems.But IA have more influence from Germans Leopard tank they need a new tank that is entirely different than that of Russian logisitics.
Another important factor is that corruption .Russian systems have a notorious reputation of maintenance expense.
But IA dont have a choice I think there is no return back from Arjun forward movements in IA.


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## IND151

Omega007 said:


> @Dazzler ,dude,you really think that you're adding something new here??Do you really believe I'm not aware of the GMS (gunner's main sight) placement issue??
> Listen man,there is NO COMPOSITE armor behind the GMS,instead DRDO has placed a ~460mm thick solid block of hardened heavy metal alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6 - meaning a 10 cm thick plate of that material has same ballistic resistance as a 16cm RHA plate has.It's more than enough to handle all current and future FSAPDS rounds in our neighbourhood.And the army would've definitely sought modification if they thought it was such big a issue as it is made out to be.
> 
> Besides,it's a very small window at the right upper corner of the turret.Good luck hitting that place at 2000 yards.
> 
> Even I could tell that AK has a partially exposed roof from front angle and its turret sides are particularly vulnerable even from frontal ark.Even worse,AK till now doesn't sport a hardened mantlet mask!!Each and every one of these are much more glaring gaps in AK's protection compared to the GMS of Arjun;but do the Indians make a big fuss all the time??No,because these have been discussed more than once before and they no longer present anything valuable........other than stupid d!ck measuring to satisfy someone's ego.So now lets give it a rest.
> 
> And yeah,110cm was plain exaggeration on Kunal's part,I told him that myself over there.But 950mm is almost correct,even Dejawolf and militarysta now somewhat agree with that figure after Kunal posted his measured pictures he took during Defexpo 14.



Thanks for Info.


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## Omega007

IND151 said:


> Thanks for Info.


You are welcome brother.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Omega007 said:


> Hey @Abingdonboy , don't you have some better things to than wasting your time on this little prick??!!Trust me dude,it's not worth your time.We whack his @rse all the time on D.F.I.
> 
> 
> 
> Who needs to read your bs anyway??We all know your reasoning has already been clouded by all the propaganda shit you guys are fed all the time.Remember the Abrams failing in Pakistan bull crap and the bashing you and your fellow received at D.F.I??So where is the need to hear whatever bs you has to say??You guys are simply incapable of objective discussion.



*** : dipshits failures inc


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## AMCA

Come on Guys, why waste time on those who cannot even manufacture a decent Cycle? I have always been a strong critic of Arjun Myself but I had reasons in being so and the recent improvements have turned me to be a fan of Mk2 version. Its sure one of the meanest tanks in Asia and can dry the bloody hell out from the Enemy's @&& on any given day.


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## Storm Force

Nonsense Talk from Dazzler,.

Pakistani jealously nothing more

I would ram down his throat a vedio of the 

Indian satalites being launched
ICMB being tested
The $1 BILLION dollar Kolkatta class destroyers launched last month
Or the $1 billion dollar nuclear powered Arihant going thru final testing/commissioning as we speak with a IRBM sagrika already on board.


The indians now have a vast array of indengious military technology spread accross all spectrums includinmg space technology.

We are not sittinmg idle looking at chinease handouts of cheap plastic small tanks and planes that are no use to a NATION OF OUR SIZE in land mass, air space , sea lanes and industrial and trade interests.

India military needs are on a completely DIFFERENT level to pakistani needs cause we have a GDP of 8 times your size and trade routes worth 15 times yours. 

We a military doctrine that requires a 10 regiments of heavy expensive armour to spear head 50 more regiments of meduim weight arnmour in a nuclear battlefield scenario between now and next 25 years. 

The options where

Abrahams
Leopard 3/4 Germany
Challenger.
or Arjun indian built 


We chose our own. 

DAZZLER IT LOOKS FEELS MAGNIFICENT 

AWESOME INDIAN HEAVEY ARMOUR

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## Daedalus

China's media ranks 10 world leading tanks

Chinese military website _Mil.news.sina.com.cn_ recently published ranking 10 world leading tanks. 

10. Type-99 (China)
*9. Arjun (India)*
8. Type 10 (Japan)
7. C1 Ariete (Italy)
6. T-90A (Russia)
5. Leclerc (France)
4. Merkava (Israel)
3. Challenger 2 (England)
2. Leopard-2A6 (Germany)
1. М1А1 Abrams (The US)

Asitimes: China's media ranks 10 world leading tanks

I will try to find the Chinese link.

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## Abingdonboy

Daedalus said:


> China's media ranks 10 world leading tanks
> 
> Chinese military website _Mil.news.sina.com.cn_ recently published ranking 10 world leading tanks.
> 
> 10. Type-99 (China)
> *9. Arjun (India)*
> 8. Type 10 (Japan)
> 7. C1 Ariete (Italy)
> 6. T-90A (Russia)
> 5. Leclerc (France)
> 4. Merkava (Israel)
> 3. Challenger 2 (England)
> 2. Leopard-2A6 (Germany)
> 1. М1А1 Abrams (The US)
> 
> Asitimes: China's media ranks 10 world leading tanks
> 
> I will try to find the Chinese link.


I don't know how they can pace the T-90 over the Arjun when the Indian Army has conducted comparative trails between the two types and the Arjun was (by far) found to be the superior machine.

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## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> Nonsense Talk from Dazzler,.
> 
> Pakistani jealously nothing more
> 
> I would ram down his throat a vedio of the
> 
> Indian satalites being launched
> ICMB being tested
> The $1 BILLION dollar Kolkatta class destroyers launched last month
> Or the $1 billion dollar nuclear powered Arihant going thru final testing/commissioning as we speak with a IRBM sagrika already on board.
> 
> 
> The indians now have a vast array of indengious military technology spread accross all spectrums includinmg space technology.
> 
> We are not sittinmg idle looking at chinease handouts of cheap plastic small tanks and planes that are no use to a NATION OF OUR SIZE in land mass, air space , sea lanes and industrial and trade interests.
> 
> India military needs are on a completely DIFFERENT level to pakistani needs cause we have a GDP of 8 times your size and trade routes worth 15 times yours.
> 
> We a military doctrine that requires a 10 regiments of heavy expensive armour to spear head 50 more regiments of meduim weight arnmour in a nuclear battlefield scenario between now and next 25 years.
> 
> The options where
> 
> Abrahams
> Leopard 3/4 Germany
> Challenger.
> or Arjun indian built
> 
> 
> We chose our own.
> 
> DAZZLER IT LOOKS FEELS MAGNIFICENT
> 
> AWESOME INDIAN HEAVEY ARMOUR



learn a.b.c. of armor basics first, oh i forgot

you are storm force



Omega007 said:


> Hey @Abingdonboy , don't you have some better things to than wasting your time on this little prick??!!Trust me dude,it's not worth your time.We whack his @rse all the time on D.F.I.
> 
> 
> 
> Who needs to read your bs anyway??We all know your reasoning has already been clouded by all the propaganda shit you guys are fed all the time.Remember the Abrams failing in Pakistan bull crap and the bashing you and your fellow received at D.F.I??So where is the need to hear whatever bs you has to say??You guys are simply incapable of objective discussion.



and all your idiotic rhetoric is limited to d*f*i, what nonsense. i have had my knowledge with people in the field. few idiots at that I forum is a bad way to learn armour basics but then who can blame an ignorant like you. all you know is to abuse those who shut ur cavity with reasonable arguments. so far, yiu are yet to present a single reasonable argument why arjun should be favourable for IA.

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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> learn a.b.c. of armor basics first, oh i forgot
> 
> you are storm force
> 
> 
> 
> and all your idiotic rhetoric is limited to d*f*i, what nonsense. i have had my knowledge with people in the field. few idiots at that I forum is a bad way to learn armour basics but then who can blame an ignorant like you. all you know is to abuse those who shut ur cavity with reasonable arguments. so far, yiu are yet to present a single reasonable argument why arjun should be favourable for IA.



Why should I??First you present a single reasonable argument why arjun should NOT be favorable for IA,then only I can counter that,isn't it??So far all you have presented in your argument is nothing more than trash talks.


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## Storm Force

Dazzled guy is burning nothing more.

Pak stuck with cheap chinsse copy of
medium weight t 55 tanks.

Low cost little armour Manuel loaders.

They have no finance to buy or build a heavey tank.

Just like the sirforce low cost single engine fighters with small range and weapons load.

They brush it up with it'd not in our military doctrine.

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## Zarvan

Storm Force said:


> Dazzled guy is burning nothing more.
> 
> Pak stuck with cheap chinsse copy of
> medium weight t 55 tanks.
> 
> Low cost little armour Manuel loaders.
> 
> They have no finance to buy or build a heavey tank.
> 
> Just like the sirforce low cost single engine fighters with small range and weapons load.
> 
> They brush it up with it'd not in our military doctrine.


You are talking about Tanks without any knowledge and you are saying it to us


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## AMCA

Zarvan said:


> You are talking about Tanks without any knowledge and you are saying it to us



Hey Bro, whats Up?? Arjun Mk 2 seems to be a good Tank... I am ready for a healthy debate. You tell me its cons and let me see if we could learn something from each other.

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## Omega007

Zarvan said:


> You are talking about Tanks without any knowledge and you are saying it to us



Nothing wrong in his statement. After all,there are still a good number of Type 85s and T 55s are still in service with the Pakistani armored corps.


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## Zarvan

Omega007 said:


> Nothing wrong in his statement. After all,there are still a good number of Type 85s and T 55s are still in service with the Pakistani armored corps.


Yes that is why we are testing MBT 3000 to replace it


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Omega007 said:


> Nothing wrong in his statement. After all,there are still a good number of Type 85s and T 55s are still in service with the Pakistani armored corps.



Type 85IIPs are different from the Chinese variants and have been upgraded ... Type-59s are being phased out.. With AZs .. Meanwhile AKII will go under mass production in 2015! The work horse.. Meanwhile AK has been given a new upgrade!

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## Omega007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Type 85IIPs are different from the Chinese variants and have been upgraded ... Type-59s are being phased out.. With AZs .. Meanwhile AKII will go under mass production in 2015! The work horse.. Meanwhile AK has been given a new upgrade!



Any possible specs for AK II??


----------



## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Any possible specs for AK II??






> *Daksg Nakra, Kuala Lumpur* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 22 April 2014
> 
> Officials from Pakistan's Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) disclosed new information about the greatly anticipated Al Khalid-Improved (I) main battle tank (MBT) during the recent DSA 2014 exhibition held in Kuala Lumpur.
> 
> Brigadier Ghulam Murtaza Qureshi (rtd), HIT's director of budget, marketing and procurement, told _IHS Jane's_ that the development is being fast-tracked and the company plans to showcase the tank during the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar 2014 (IDEAS 2014) in Islamabad in December.
> 
> The development of the new MBT began earlier in the decade and Qureshi said it is around 50% complete. Some reports suggested it was being co-developed with China's NORINCO and was a version of China's MBT-3000.
> 
> Qureshi claimed this was incorrect and that the Al Khalid-I is an indigenous development of Pakistan's mainstay tank, the Al Khalid, which was jointly developed in the early 1990s with NORINCO (known in China as the MBT-2000) and commissioned in 2001.
> 
> The Pakistan Army's Armoured Corps operates about 420 Al Khalid MBTs, along with Al Zarrar (Type 59/59M), Type 69, Type 85 IIAP and T-80UD tanks. The Al Khalid-I will replace approximately 300 Type 85s and 320 T-80s, which are known to operate in semi-desert and desert areas of the country.
> 
> The existing Al Khalid is powered by a Ukrainian 6TD-2 power pack developing a maximum power of 1,200 bhp. It also features integrated battle management, auto transmission control, muzzle reference and active threat protection systems.
> 
> Qureshi added that the design concept of the Al Khalid-I is primarily based on further refining and improving mobility, firepower and protection. Initially, the design featured around 10 major changes over the Al Khalid hull, but due to rising costs and budgetary constraints, this has been reduced to six.
> 
> These include a new 1,500 bhp power pack to improve its power-to-weight ratio and a digital driver manual. The HIT official confirmed that it would retain the 125 mm smoothbore barrel. As of April 2014, trials are under way to finalise the new power pack. These details concur with comments at IDEAS 2012 by a senior official at Pakistan's Ministry of Defence Procurement who told said that an improved version would feature a more powerful diesel power pack, improved command and control and better night-fighting capabilities.
> 
> HIT plans to complete trials of the Al Khalid-I with the Pakistani Army by the first quarter of 2015 and based on results, it is hoping to achieve low rate initial production by June 2015. HIT currently has the capability to roll out 20-40 Al Khalid MBTs a year, suggesting it will look to achieve a similar production schedule for the improved version.
> 
> (435 words)
> 
> Source: HIT reveals new information on Al Khalid-I MBT | Page 4

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## SammiiPryo34

It's definitely Arjun!!


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## IND151

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Type 85IIPs are different from the Chinese variants and have been upgraded ...* Type-59s are being phased out*.. With AZs .. Meanwhile AKII will go under mass production in 2015! The work horse.. Meanwhile AK has been given a new upgrade!



Is PA retaining some Al Zazars?


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## Dazzler

IND151 said:


> Is PA retaining some Al Zazars?



depends on their requirement, in fact, the talk of mbt 3000 being tested is actually the need of replacing all 59s, 69s (NON Alzarrars) and even type-85s with it. IF mbt 3000 passes trials i.e.

The crown jewel of future mbt fleet will be alkhalid-2

back to topic folks

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## Ramesh N

While explaining the tank in the video that scientist is saying that the RED marked part is ERA. Is it reallly ERA or NERA ?


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## IND151

Ramesh N said:


> While explaining the tank in the video that scientist is saying that the RED marked part is ERA. Is it reallly ERA or NERA ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 46347



Seems NERA...................................


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## Ramesh N

IND151 said:


> Seems NERA...................................



But the person confidently told it is ERA.. ?


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## Storm Force

Simple question folkes

is the Arjun really superior to chinease built T99 as their media are suggesting here

Asitimes: China's media ranks 10 world leading tanks

Its also interesting the chinease rate russian T90 ( which we have 1600) as even higher than both Arjun & T99


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## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> Simple question folkes
> 
> is the Arjun really superior to chinease built T99 as their media are suggesting here
> 
> Asitimes: China's media ranks 10 world leading tanks
> 
> Its also interesting the chinease rate russian T90 ( which we have 1600) as even higher than both Arjun & T99



another stupid post, dont you have anything useful to share??

This rating stuff is idiotic to say the least, and is usually made by fanboys who know nil to nothing about a main battle tank, zilch about what factors should be taken into consideration. Ukrainian Oplot series is definitely among the best in the region, be it armour, ammunition, fcs, engine+transmission, command and control and overall system efficiency but is not even included in the list.

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## Storm Force

So dazzler

You give us your top. Ten please.

With reasons why. 

Since you know so much.


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## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> So dazzler
> 
> You give us your top. Ten please.
> 
> With reasons why.
> 
> Since you know so much.



neither i claim to "know it all" nor i believe in top xx ratings. Every mbt is designed to fulfill certain parameters, terrain, fire power, mobility and protection. Comparing them is like insulting their design philosophy and designers/ users alike.


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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> another stupid post, dont you have anything useful to share??
> 
> This rating stuff is idiotic to say the least, and is usually made by fanboys who know nil to nothing about a main battle tank, zilch about what factors should be taken into consideration. Ukrainian Oplot series is definitely among the best in the region, be it armour, ammunition, fcs, engine+transmission, command and control and overall system efficiency but is not even included in the list.



Not armor,you can god damn bet your @rse on this.You see,although the KMDB was in fact the best tank factory in erstwhile USSR,yet they were not the ones who produced the special armor inserts.They were supplied from Russia and they just put those into the armor cavities and that's about it.The Ukrainians do not have the necessary R&D experience to produce world class armor inserts,as simple as that.

Coming to ammunition,well,no one has actually seen the Sniviets yet,it's just a myth.I mean,come on now,do you seriously believe all that "760 mm penetration at 2000 meter" bs!!Even the Germans can not achieve such a level of penetration at that range with their latest DM 63 even from the mighty Rheinmetall L55 smooth barrels!!And BM Oplot can do that with shorter L48 and a definitely shorter penetrator??!!Never.....not in this world they can not.
The BM Oplot has retained the same hull of the earlier Ob'yekt 478B which inadvertently transfers to that the carousel is also same and hence it can not hold a FSAPDS round long enough to give such a ridiculously high penetration level at that distance.

Next FCS,again,pretty much standard,nothing extraordinary really,certainly not the best. 

Engine,not so sure but transmission............yes.

C&C,I don't know how it became the best.

Only thing really great about this Oplot is the Duplet,other than that,well...................



Storm Force said:


> Dazzler
> 
> You have just proven you know absolutely nothing.
> 
> A chinase website ( not indian not pakistan) ranks TOP 10 tanks
> 
> And you cl;aim fan boy bullshit.
> 
> you just TROLLING



Sorry to say but in this case,I've to go with @Dazzler .He's quite on the mark when he says that "_such websites hold no worth"._

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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Not armor,you can god damn bet your @rse on this.You see,although the KMDB was in fact the best tank factory in erstwhile USSR,yet they were not the ones who produced the special armor inserts.They were supplied from Russia and they just put those into the armor cavities and that's about it.The Ukrainians do not have the necessary R&D experience to produce world class armor inserts,as simple as that.
> 
> Coming to ammunition,well,no one has actually seen the Sniviets yet,it's just a myth.I mean,come on now,do you seriously believe all that "760 mm penetration at 2000 meter" bs!!Even the Germans can not achieve such a level of penetration at that range with their latest DM 63 even from the mighty Rheinmetall L55 smooth barrels!!And BM Oplot can do that with shorter L48 and a definitely shorter penetrator??!!Never.....not in this world they can not.
> The BM Oplot has retained the same hull of the earlier Ob'yekt 478B which inadvertently transfers to that the carousel is also same and hence it can not hold a FSAPDS round long enough to give such a ridiculously high penetration level at that distance.



this post sums up my opinion about you, you know zilch about ukrainian industry, alaxendar morozov and others. i suggest you dont go there or i will gladly shut your d*f*i arse for good !

choice is yours[/quote]

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## Etilla

cost of Arjun mk2 has touched the $10 million mark. Now its the world's most expensive tank and not the best by a long shot. 

The much better Merkava mk4 is at the $6 million mark. Perhaps an ideal replacement for T-72?


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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Omega007 said:


> Hahahaha,look who has spoken.........it's the all knowing chimpanzee out of Pakistan and liked by that Rhesus monkey!!What a couple,my my!!Rab ne bana di jori/Eik ana aur ek kauri!!
> 
> Listen you madrassa chimp,I read about all that even before you heard about Morozov and shit!!Unlike you madrassa rats,we base our knowledge on books, common sense and logical reasoning.....something which which will never be comprehended by the likes of you.That is why you will never see us uttering such trash talk like the M1A2 failing in desert and what not!!Boy,I still fell in laughter when remember how badly we whoop your skinny arse over there!!seems like you haven't forgot it as yet and may be that explains your obsession with that word!!Is it so?,huh chimpu boy??
> 
> And as for you shutting my arse,boy,if I just stomp your arse,your balls will eject through your mouth like a pair of .22!!I'm a little bit busy these days,but be rest assured.Very soon I'll direct all my attention on to you over D.F.I and then we shall see what happens.Till then,adios sucker.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep,with albeit a different alias.





This hindu took it too seriously I guess.

Dil pe lay gaya hai bacha...

You are all over the place. Anyone can see how ridiculous you are looking when you use ALL the slurs incoherently in one post...There is a style to insult. Incoherent gibberish only shows your weak inner-self. Get a life. Moreover, work on your self-esteem.


----------



## TeesraIndiotHunter

Etilla said:


> cost of Arjun mk2 has touched the $10 million mark. Now its the world's most expensive tank and not the best by a long shot.
> 
> The much better Merkava mk4 is at the $6 million mark. Perhaps an ideal replacement for T-72?



Arjun(k)-2 at 10 million a piece? HOLY LMAO!

You are definitely missing somehting here...Probably your number includes other things as well...


----------



## Dazzler

Hahahaha,look who has spoken.........it's the all knowing chimpanzee out of Pakistan and liked by that Rhesus monkey!!What a couple,my my!!Rab ne bana di jori/Eik ana aur ek kauri!!

Listen you madrassa chimp,I read about all that even before you heard about Morozov and shit!!Unlike you madrassa rats,we base our knowledge on books, common sense and logical reasoning.....something which which will never be comprehended by the likes of you.That is why you will never see us uttering such trash talk like the M1A2 failing in desert and what not!!Boy,I still fell in laughter when remember how badly we whoop your skinny arse over there!!seems like you haven't forgot it as yet and may be that explains your obsession with that word!!Is it so?,huh chimpu boy??

And as for you shutting my arse,boy,if I just stomp your arse,your balls will eject through your mouth like a pair of .22!!I'm a little bit busy these days,but be rest assured.Very soon I'll direct all my attention on to you over D.F.I and then we shall see what happens.Till then,adios sucker.



Yep,with albeit a different alias. [/quote]


HINT:, ural, kmdb, spetmash, Kirov, all were rivals in Soviet arms industry, your above analysis is horrendously wrong to say the least. In fact, uralvagonzavod always followed kmdb's footprints. The first t-72 propotype was nothing more than a reworked, albeit on a lower level, t-64, including a less powerful engine, simpler transmission, NO fire control system, new autoloader, same D-81 gun, and basic coincidence range finder, bigger road wheels, slightly longer hull while smaller turret with NO composite armour protection, not because Ural didnt want it, but because they could not develop one  

The biggest reason why Ural went with the t-72 experiment was the fact that they did not want to remain a sidekick to high end kmdb, infact, Soviet generals asked them to manufacture several T-64 components to reduce workload on kmdb 

In every sense, the t-72 was meant to be a "low end" complementary vehicle vis-a-vis the high end t-64. The situation continued with these two bureaus and others till the fall of Soviet Union. Even today, Uralvagonzavod barely reaches the expertise of kmdb in Ukraine. The only things that hampers Ukrainians is lack of finances. You look at their armour development cycles and you will know what i am talking about. 

Just in case you dont know, first composite armour modules were developed and tested in ukraine, by morozov, read about glass reinforced plastic and corrondum balls in frontal arc of t-64 mbt and how difficult it was to develop such a module back in 60s. 

I am warning kiddo, dont push me


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## Etilla

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Arjun(k)-2 at 10 million a piece? HOLY LMAO!
> 
> You are definitely missing somehting here...Probably your number includes other things as well...



Its priced between 55-60 crores. (Unit Price)

INR 60.1= $1


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## Omega007

Etilla said:


> cost of Arjun mk2 has touched the $10 million mark. Now its the world's most expensive tank and not the best by a long shot.
> 
> The much better Merkava mk4 is at the $6 million mark. Perhaps an ideal replacement for T-72?



Much better Merkava MkIV !!Seriously??How so??Care to explain??


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## Etilla

Omega007 said:


> Much better Merkava MkIV !!Seriously??How so??Care to explain??



APS, Battlefield troop carrier + proven combat record.


----------



## TeesraIndiotHunter

Etilla said:


> APS, Battlefield troop carrier + proven combat record.



Dude, the guy you are replying to is a retard. He thinks india is a stronger military power than China :/

Forget him.

Regarding Arjun II....Pakistan's upgraded Al Khalid-1 tank already matches Arjun II...

When Arjun II came out, indian forums were buzzing and everyone was happy. So one day, I was reading discussions on Arjun II and indians were going "OMG..it has thermal imagers...OMG, it has BMS and it commander can control UAVs from within..it is this and that and blah blah" ...and after reading for a while..I was like "Wait! Al Khalid-I already has all of them..how is Arjun II superior then?" Then I realized that actually, Pakistan might not even need to bring out its Al Khalid II..since Al Khalid-I pretty much matches Arjun II already






So here is a basic comparison between the two tanks...

Note : highlight = Advantage over the other tank

No highlight means can't say if an advantage or not. Since different things have different uses.

Weight 

Al Khalid-1 : 48 tons
Merkava IV : 68 tons.

Speed 

*Al Khalid-1 : 72 km/h*
Arjun II : 58 km/h

Main Armament 

*Al Khalid-1 : 125 mm smooth bore gun*
Arjun II : 120 mm _rifled gun_

Payload Capacity 

*Al Khalid-1 : 49 rounds*
Arjun II : 39 rounds

Engine 

*Al Khalid-1 : KMDB 6TD-2 6-cylinder diesel 1,200 hp (with upgrade)*
Arjun II : 10 cylinder, V-90 turbo charged 1400 hp

Power/Weight ratio (critical for superior accelaration)

*Al Khalid-1 : 26 hp/tonne*
Arjun II : 20.1 hp/tonne

Armour 

Al Khalid-1 : Composite armour, and RHA, with ERA plate coating (right up there. very tough)
Arjun II : Improved kanchan armour, Russian-style ERA (slightly better)

Operational Range 

*Al Khalid-1 : 500 km*
Arjun II : 450 km

Protection 
*Al Khalid-1 : VARTA active protection system*
Arjun II : ???

ATGMs 

Al Khalid-1 : Kombat , 9M119 Refleks (AT-11 Sniper) etc (laser beam guidance, unstoppable since can't be detected due to laser beam guidance method..some claim it also has top attack mode. Unsure about it though)

Arjun II : LAHAT (Top attack mode..very effective!)

Types of rounds carried

*Al Khalid-I: APFSDS, HEAT-FS , HE-FS, Depleted Uranium rounds *
Arjun II: FSAPDS, HESH, PCB, TB etc.


Other than this, both Al Khalid-I and Arjun II have thermal imagers, panoramic sites for commanders, and Battlefield management systems...

Al Khalid-1's muzzle velocity is very damn good too...superior to that of even Merkava IV...but I didn't get stats for Arjun II muzzle velocity or rate of fire..so can't say anything...

*Conclusion:* Al Khalid-1 is right up there, if not superior, to Arjun II. Arjun sure has its advantages in heavier armour..but then Al Khalid-1 is superior to Arjun in mobility, speed, and firepower...

Pakistan's Al Khalid project is by all measures superior to indian arjun..

Remember, Al Khalid-II is coming out in December at IDEAS 2014 and it will have better armour than current Al Khalid-1 tank.

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## Omega007

Etilla said:


> APS, Battlefield troop carrier + proven combat record.



APS is just an add on feature,it's not like something that can not be integrated at a later stage.

Battlefield troop carrier!!Please,give it a rest.You call that a troop carrier!!You wanna shove your troops in that cramped ammo chamber and then what??How many troops you can carry in that box??Heck,they will soon pass out in the summer heat.Even worse,your mighty tank will have no ammo left to fight!!This troop carrier thingy is just a marketing gimmick,don't take that too seriously.Israelis themselves do not do that for obvious reasons,the first of them being it's pretty much impossible and totally impractical.

Proven combat record - seriously!!Against whom??The Hezbollah??Did this Merkava IV ever go head to head against another 3rd generation MBT??

And as for cost,it's because the small order and the exorbitant cost of the imported engines and thermals.These two subsystems alone cost more than 60% of total cost of Arjun tank.



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Dude, the guy you are replying to is a retard. He thinks india is a stronger military power than China :/
> 
> Forget him.
> 
> Regarding Arjun II....Pakistan's upgraded Al Khalid-1 tank already matches Arjun II...
> 
> When Arjun II came out, indian forums were buzzing and everyone was happy. So one day, I was reading discussions on Arjun II and indians were going "OMG..it has thermal imagers...OMG, it has BMS and it commander can control UAVs from within..it is this and that and blah blah" ...and after reading for a while..I was like "Wait! Al Khalid-I already has all of them..how is Arjun II superior then?" Then I realized that actually, Pakistan might not even need to bring out its Al Khalid II..since Al Khalid-I pretty much matches Arjun II already
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So here is a basic comparison between the two tanks...
> 
> Note : highlight = Advantage over the other tank
> 
> No highlight means can't say if an advantage or not. Since different things have different uses.
> Weight
> 
> Al Khalid-1 : 48 tons
> Merkava IV : 68 tons.
> 
> Speed
> *Al Khalid-1 : 72 km/h*
> Arjun II : 58 km/h
> 
> Main Armament
> *Al Khalid-1 : 125 mm smooth bore gun*
> Arjun II : 120 mm _rifled gun_
> 
> Payload Capacity
> 
> *Al Khalid-1 : 49 rounds*
> Arjun II : 39 rounds
> 
> Engine
> *Al Khalid-1 : KMDB 6TD-2 6-cylinder diesel 1,200 hp (with upgrade)*
> Arjun II : 10 cylinder, V-90 turbo charged 1400 hp
> Power/Weight ratio (critical for superior accelaration)
> 
> *Al Khalid-1 : 26 hp/tonne*
> Arjun II : 20.1 hp/tonne
> Armour
> 
> Al Khalid-1 : Composite armour, and RHA, with ERA plate coating (right up there. very tough)
> Arjun II : Improved kanchan armour, Russian-style ERA (slightly better)
> Operational Range
> *Al Khalid-1 : 500 km*
> Arjun II : 450 km
> Protection
> *Al Khalid-1 : VARTA active protection system*
> Arjun II : ???
> ATGMs
> 
> Al Khalid-1 : Kombat , 9M119 Refleks (AT-11 Sniper) etc (laser beam guidance, unstoppable since can't be detected due to laser beam guidance method..some claim it also has top attack mode. Unsure about it though)
> 
> Arjun II : LAHAT (Top attack mode..very effective!)
> Types of rounds carried
> 
> *Al Khalid-I: APFSDS, HEAT-FS , HE-FS, Depleted Uranium rounds and KOMBAT ATGM*
> 
> Arjun II: FSAPDS, HESH, PCB, TB, and Lahat ATGM
> 
> 
> Other than this, both Al Khalid-I and Arjun II have thermal imagers, panoramic sites for commanders, and Battlefield management systems...
> Al Khalid-1's muzzle velocity is very damn good too...superior to that of even Merkava IV...but I didn't get stats for Arjun II muzzle velocity or rate of fire..so can't say anything...
> 
> *Conclusion:* Al Khalid-1 is right up there, if not superior, to Arjun II. Arjun sure has its advantages in heavier armour..but then Al Khalid-1 is superior to Arjun in mobility, speed, and firepower...
> 
> Pakistan's Al Khalid project is by all measures superior to indian arjun..
> 
> Remember, Al Khalid-II is coming out in December at IDEAS 2014 and it will have better armour than current Al Khalid-1 tank.




Huh,a chimp calling me retard.Clearly you have no fucking idea about the subject at hand,go read up,educate yourself first then talk.As for AK Is matching Arjun MkII,sorry to burst your bubble.But that AK as it presently stands out is nothing more than a joke,really.Too many weak areas all over that thingy.

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## Etilla

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Dude, the guy you are replying to is a retard. He thinks india is a stronger military power than China :/
> 
> Forget him.
> 
> Regarding Arjun II....Pakistan's upgraded Al Khalid-1 tank already matches Arjun II...
> 
> When Arjun II came out, indian forums were buzzing and everyone was happy. So one day, I was reading discussions on Arjun II and indians were going "OMG..it has thermal imagers...OMG, it has BMS and it commander can control UAVs from within..it is this and that and blah blah" ...and after reading for a while..I was like "Wait! Al Khalid-I already has all of them..how is Arjun II superior then?" Then I realized that actually, Pakistan might not even need to bring out its Al Khalid II..since Al Khalid-I pretty much matches Arjun II already
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So here is a basic comparison between the two tanks...
> 
> Note : highlight = Advantage over the other tank
> 
> No highlight means can't say if an advantage or not. Since different things have different uses.
> 
> Weight
> 
> Al Khalid-1 : 48 tons
> Merkava IV : 68 tons.
> 
> Speed
> 
> *Al Khalid-1 : 72 km/h*
> Arjun II : 58 km/h
> 
> Main Armament
> 
> *Al Khalid-1 : 125 mm smooth bore gun*
> Arjun II : 120 mm _rifled gun_
> 
> Payload Capacity
> 
> *Al Khalid-1 : 49 rounds*
> Arjun II : 39 rounds
> 
> Engine
> 
> *Al Khalid-1 : KMDB 6TD-2 6-cylinder diesel 1,200 hp (with upgrade)*
> Arjun II : 10 cylinder, V-90 turbo charged 1400 hp
> 
> Power/Weight ratio (critical for superior accelaration)
> 
> *Al Khalid-1 : 26 hp/tonne*
> Arjun II : 20.1 hp/tonne
> 
> Armour
> 
> Al Khalid-1 : Composite armour, and RHA, with ERA plate coating (right up there. very tough)
> Arjun II : Improved kanchan armour, Russian-style ERA (slightly better)
> 
> Operational Range
> 
> *Al Khalid-1 : 500 km*
> Arjun II : 450 km
> 
> Protection
> *Al Khalid-1 : VARTA active protection system*
> Arjun II : ???
> 
> ATGMs
> 
> Al Khalid-1 : Kombat , 9M119 Refleks (AT-11 Sniper) etc (laser beam guidance, unstoppable since can't be detected due to laser beam guidance method..some claim it also has top attack mode. Unsure about it though)
> 
> Arjun II : LAHAT (Top attack mode..very effective!)
> 
> Types of rounds carried
> 
> *Al Khalid-I: APFSDS, HEAT-FS , HE-FS, Depleted Uranium rounds *
> Arjun II: FSAPDS, HESH, PCB, TB etc.
> 
> 
> Other than this, both Al Khalid-I and Arjun II have thermal imagers, panoramic sites for commanders, and Battlefield management systems...
> 
> Al Khalid-1's muzzle velocity is very damn good too...superior to that of even Merkava IV...but I didn't get stats for Arjun II muzzle velocity or rate of fire..so can't say anything...
> 
> *Conclusion:* Al Khalid-1 is right up there, if not superior, to Arjun II. Arjun sure has its advantages in heavier armour..but then Al Khalid-1 is superior to Arjun in mobility, speed, and firepower...
> 
> Pakistan's Al Khalid project is by all measures superior to indian arjun..
> 
> Remember, Al Khalid-II is coming out in December at IDEAS 2014 and it will have better armour than current Al Khalid-1 tank.



Anybody not using abusive language on this forum is not a retard.

Seeing your username well...

Arjun MBT is based on western tank model and Al-Khalid is based on lighter Chinese and Russian models.

Please don't compare Al-khalid with Merkava. Although on this forum Al-Khalid is the world's best MBT. I however do not want to get into a debate where nationalism is the theme and i get banned when i post facts.

Regarding your comparison above where you are highlighting advantages i strongly recommend you look at the engine comparison again.

Also Arjun max speed is 72 Km/h not 58km/h.

You seem to have posted Arjun mk1 specs under Arjun mk2 specs.

Also Arjun carries more varieties of ammunition than you have listed. HEAT, APFSDS. 

You are either misinformed or lying.

Both Al-khalid and Arjun have advantages over each other. Nobody is a clear winner.



Omega007 said:


> APS is just an add on feature,it's not like something that can not be integrated at a later stage.
> 
> Battlefield troop carrier!!Please,give it a rest.You call that a troop carrier!!You wanna shove your troops in that cramped ammo chamber and then what??How many troops you can carry in that box??Heck,they will soon pass out in the summer heat.Even worse,your mighty tank will have no ammo left to fight!!This troop carrier thingy is just a marketing gimmick,don't take that too seriously.Israelis themselves do not do that for obvious reasons,the first of them being it's pretty much impossible and totally impractical.
> 
> Proven combat record - seriously!!Against whom??The Hezbollah??Did this Merkava IV ever go head to head against another 3rd generation MBT??
> 
> And as for cost,it's because the small order and the exorbitant cost of the imported engines and thermals.These two subsystems alone cost more than 60% of total cost of Arjun tank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huh,a chimp calling me retard.Clearly you have no fucking idea about the subject at hand,go read up,educate yourself first then talk.As for AK Is matching Arjun MkII,sorry to burst your bubble.But that AK as it presently stands out is nothing more than a joke,really.Too many weak areas all over that thingy.



APS is a very important feature which Arjun lacks.

It has provision for carrying troops in battle. 

Proven in many wars. (Earlier versions)

Buying a $10million tank in large numbers in not financially viable.

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## Omega007

Etilla said:


> Anybody not using abusive language on this forum is not a retard.
> 
> Seeing your username well...
> 
> Arjun MBT is based on western tank model and Al-Khalid is based on lighter Chinese and Russian models.
> 
> Please don't compare Al-khalid with Merkava. Although on this forum Al-Khalid is the world's best MBT. I however do not want to get into a debate where nationalism is the theme and i get banned when i post facts.
> 
> Regarding your comparison above where you are highlighting advantages i strongly recommend you look at the engine comparison again.
> 
> Also Arjun max speed is 72 Km/h not 58km/h.
> 
> You seem to have posted Arjun mk1 specs under Arjun mk2 specs.
> 
> Also Arjun carries more varieties of ammunition than you have listed. HEAT, APFSDS.
> 
> You are either misinformed or lying.
> 
> Both Al-khalid and Arjun have advantages over each other. Nobody is a clear winner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> APS is a very important feature which Arjun lacks.
> 
> It has provision for carrying troops in battle.
> 
> Proven in many wars. (Earlier versions)
> 
> Buying a $10million tank in large numbers in not financially viable.




Ooph,you are not listening.Markava MkIV doesn't have provision for troop carriage,as simple as that.It can theoretically caary some troops into its ammunition compartment but there is a difference between 'can' and 'is'.Don't believe all those bs shown in Discovery programmings like Future Weapons and as such.And lastly,could please name a few books you have read on tanks,even one will do.

APS can be installed any time,not a big problem.

Clearly you lack understandings in this matter.If you do not order it in large numbers,there will be no point in investing money in R&D for a domestic power pack and thermals which are now being bought COTS at exorbitant price,and the price will never go down.It's called Economy of scales.Read up first on these matters since this are extremely crucial.Try to make a better understanding of things before you make your judgement

Oh and one more thing,there is no need to spar with such fools like @TeesraIndiotHunter chimp.

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## Etilla

Omega007 said:


> Ooph,you are not listening.Markava MkIV doesn't have provision for troop carriage,as simple as that.It can theoretically caary some troops into its ammunition compartment but there is a difference between 'can' and 'is'.Don't believe all those bs shown in Discovery programmings like Future Weapons and as such.And lastly,could please name a few books you have read on tanks,even one will do.
> 
> APS can be installed any time,not a big problem.
> 
> Clearly you lack understandings in this matter.If you do not order it in large numbers,there will be no point in investing money in R&D for a domestic power pack and thermals which are now being bought COTS at exorbitant price,and the price will never go down.It's called Economy of scales.Read up first on these matters since this are extremely crucial.Try to make a better understanding of things before you make your judgement
> 
> Oh and one more thing,there is no need to spar with such fools like @TeesraIndiotHunter chimp.



It has provision. Proper seats with AC. 
Why not install APS?

Do i have to pass a written exam to post on the forum?

Economy of scales?

366 Arjun are in service/on order. How many should be ordered to lower the price from $10 million to $4 million?
Nothing we do will reduce price. Not economical to operate this tank no matter how protected, lethal and agile it may be.


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## Omega007

Etilla said:


> It has provision. Proper seats with AC.
> Why not install APS?
> 
> Do i have to pass a written exam to post on the forum?
> 
> Economy of scales?
> 
> 366 Arjun are in service/on order. How many should be ordered to lower the price from $10 million to $4 million?
> Nothing we do will reduce price. Not economical to operate this tank no matter how protected, lethal and agile it may be.



Man give it a rest,you win. I've a rather limited capacity to take such bs,even it is from a fellow Indian.Clearly you have no idea about tanks,all your 'knowledge' is based on nothing more than some propaganda 'documentaries' and youtube videos.try to read a few proper books on this subject,not what some random internet article (unless of course some research papers).

And no,you do not need to pass written exam to spread such bs as you are doing now.But a few good books could certainly help you to realize how much of a fool you are making out of yourself as of now.


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## Omega007

@gslv mk3 ,good to see you back bud.

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## gslv mk3

Omega007 said:


> @gslv mk3 ,good to see you back bud.



Thank you bro..

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## Omega007

gslv mk3 said:


> Thank you bro..



You are welcome bro,could you give your fb id??

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## gslv mk3

Omega007 said:


> You are welcome bro,could you give your fb id??



Will do it in the members section...let me try in the Kerala corner.

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## IBRIS

Video of Defense Expo 2014 of Arjun MK2 and other upcoming firing control systems



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

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## Omega007

ANPP said:


> Mind your language you sister fuckers.



Don't answer to that fucking chimp,he doesn't know jack about tanks.So just ignore him,let him blabber as much he wants to.


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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Omega007 said:


> Don't answer to that fucking chimp,he doesn't know jack about tanks.So just ignore him,let him blabber as much he wants to.






No that I have shown your ugly face the reality..and all the stats are given..you have no reply. lol..

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## Alfa-Fighter

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Stop taking gau mata p!ss drinking shots as per your hindu dharam.
> I've give you solid statistics and numbers....while you have only resorted to personal attacks.
> Even our Al Khalid-1 beats Arjun II in firepower and mobility...as proven by above statistics for both tanks.
> Al Khalid-1 can carry significantly more number of rounds than arjun...can fire superior rounds including DU rounds..and has modern FCS with very capable gun having more muzzle velocity than even Merkava IV..
> 
> There is a reason why Pakistan Ground Forces have inducted Al Khalids in large numbers while indian army had to beg Russia for T-90s because Arjun(k) tank came out as useless..LOL..Even indian army doesn't have confidence on arjun...
> Kind of true...
> 
> No one compared Merkava. I just gave Merkava's example to prove how modern and capable Al Khalid's Fire Control System and Gun.
> 
> We have an Israeli member here who used to be a gunner in IDF and have fired from Merkava II, III, and IVs (the most latest one)...
> 
> And even he has praised Al Khalid-1's FCS and gun and said that it is right up there (Merkava IV over-all is superior. We all know it.)



Can you tell me what the hit Probability of AK? Arjun has The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than* 0.9 Pk*)

Ask any oft they the terms at all....



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> We Pakistanis aren't delusional indians and this isn't any indian forum where india is regarded as "supa powa" of world lol..We Pakistanis don't live in delusions.
> 
> Al Khalid-1 is a very capable platform that serves our needs well within our budget constraints. THAT is what we think of Al Khalid.
> 
> Quite different from "best in the world" theme, no?
> 
> Engine on its own means nothing.
> 
> What matters is acceleration and Power-to-Weight ratio...and hence Al Khalid-1 has an advantage in this field since it can accelerate faster and has super P/W ratio than Arjun.



*Arjun has speed 72 KM/Hr *...... *what is the advantage of hight Power -t0 -Weight Ratio ??? care to explain? 

you will the answer for speed below... the advantage of speed in battle field.*



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Max speed is a useless measure anyways.



Everything is important in battle field, like *IA reach Siachin before PA , because of Speed .*.... Now you under stand the importance of speed?



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> I'd like to see the source of Arjun II's max speed though...


Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> So does Al Khalid.
> 
> Al Khalid can also carry DU rounds...Arjun can't.



Al-Khalid also fires a Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round (armour penetration: 550 mm in RHA at 2 km)

Arjun Kanchan is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA). This helps in defeating APFDS and HEAT rounds. Trials conducted in 2000, showcased the ability of Kanchan armour to protect the tank, even when hit at point blank range by a T-72. *It also demonstrated the capability to defeat HESH and APFSDS rounds, which included the Israeli APFSDS rounds.* A new honeycomb design of Non-Explosive and Non-Energetic Reactive Armour (NERA) is additional is capable of defecting your DU rounds , if AK even came close in 2KM radius.





TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Moreover, Smoothbore guns are superior to rifled guns.



can you prove that technically ?



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Same round fired from Arjun's gun will have less impact as compared to when fired to Al Khalid's 125mm smoothbore gun with absolutely remarkable muzzle velocity (which, as I said, is even superior to Merkava IV gun's muzzle velocity)
> 
> Very true.



Dose AK has NBC capability ?
Dose AK can cross Mine fields without getting blown ?

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## Rajput_Pakistani

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Can you tell me what the hit Probability of AK? Arjun has The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than* 0.9 Pk*)
> 
> Ask any oft they the terms at all....
> 
> 
> 
> *Arjun has speed 72 KM/Hr *...... *what is the advantage of hight Power -t0 -Weight Ratio ??? care to explain?
> 
> you will the answer for speed below... the advantage of speed in battle field.*
> 
> 
> 
> Everything is important in battle field, like *IA reach Siachin before PA , because of Speed .*.... Now you under stand the importance of speed?
> 
> 
> Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Al-Khalid also fires a Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round (armour penetration: 550 mm in RHA at 2 km)
> 
> Arjun Kanchan is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA). This helps in defeating APFDS and HEAT rounds. Trials conducted in 2000, showcased the ability of Kanchan armour to protect the tank, even when hit at point blank range by a T-72. *It also demonstrated the capability to defeat HESH and APFSDS rounds, which included the Israeli APFSDS rounds.* A new honeycomb design of Non-Explosive and Non-Energetic Reactive Armour (NERA) is additional is capable of defecting your DU rounds , if AK even came close in 2KM radius.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> can you prove that technically ?
> 
> 
> 
> Dose AK has NBC capability ?
> Dose AK can cross Mine fields without getting blown ?



HP/Tonne ratio demonstrate how one body can accelerate as compared to other in this case a Tank. It also is beneficial while crossing inclined heights, muddy fields as well as soft sands.

AK is able to survive NBC warfare as any other 3rd generation tank.

No Tank can survive Mine Field exploding directly under its track. Even if it is not blown away, it is sure to kill it mobility. If you want to say that Mine fields plowers at Arjun can cross every mine field then you should probably see AK crossing a mine field user trials. Video is posted on this site as well as available on youtube.

If Kanchan Armour is that much advanced that it is able to stop every kind of anti armor humanity has develop till date then why your country has brought an entire assembly line to manufacture T-90s and what is the need then to spend so much money on APS for Arjun?

Kindly dont quote wikipedia, even i can go there right now and update any info. Come with some better reference.

It was the stupidest comment when you compared tanks speeds and going atop a glacier.

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## Alfa-Fighter

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> HP/Tonne ratio demonstrate how one body can accelerate as compared to other in this case a Tank. It also is beneficial while crossing inclined heights, muddy fields as well as soft sands.
> 
> AK is able to survive NBC warfare as any other 3rd generation tank.
> 
> No Tank can survive Mine Field exploding directly under its track. Even if it is not blown away, it is sure to kill it mobility. If you want to say that Mine fields plowers at Arjun can cross every mine field then you should probably see AK crossing a mine field user trials. Video is posted on this site as well as available on youtube.
> 
> If Kanchan Armour is that much advanced that it is able to stop every kind of anti armor humanity has develop till date then why your country has brought an entire assembly line to manufacture T-90s and what is the need then to spend so much money on APS for Arjun?
> 
> Kindly dont quote wikipedia, even i can go there right now and update any info. Come with some better reference.
> 
> It was thee stupidest comment when you compared tanks speeds and going atop a glacier.




Lol , don't talk in words.... prove..technically, in fantasies , *even Pak MUSH (PA) told PAK satellites are more advance then Indain. *

A) Well .... power to *Weight to Ratio of Arjun is 1500/55= 27.2 and AK is 26 ..*.. what you want to prove now?
that AK is superior even though is Power to weight ratio is less.......poor chap... do home work....

B) Arjun has *Electromagnetic-counter mine system can also be installed to disable magnetic mines and disrupts its electronics before the tank reaches them. *( To advance technology for you to understand) 

Wiki is more knowable then you read it, it might shatter your dreams,
*you didn't tell what is your Tank hitting PA? don't know it? now your fault....beacsue you can't talk in in dept technical details .*

Every country has its strategy which can't be changed over night, IA startegy based on Soviets which i.e (based on small and light tank) unlike west which based on Heavy Tanks .

I hope you understand the word Tanks strategy? For changing the strategy from Light Tank to Heavy tank needs time and equipment .... which changes over period of time......

If your tank is so super duper powerful why Malaysia didn't buy it after evaluation.? did they find your tank to powerful that it will destroy china with that?

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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Alfa-Fighter said:


> Can you tell me what the hit Probability of AK? Arjun has The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than* 0.9 Pk*)



Hit probability is not a "uniform" category.

Distance, state of tank (moving, stationary), state of target (moving, stationary), height of tank relevant to the target (is tank firing targets that are not on level field) and alot of other things matter.

But I can tell you one thing: In military exercises in Sindh desert, Al Khalid (basic) engaged targets while being in _accelerating speeds_ and targets being at maximum distance for Al Khalid rounds...Targets were real-life simulation as well (some targets were moving, some were stationary)...

Result: 8 out 10 direct hits. 1 miss. 1 hit but target wasn't completely destroyed (partial hit).

And that is basic Al Khalid. Al Khalid-1 has upgraded FCS with Pakistani-made improved gun.

You can get an idea of how lethally accurate Al Khalid is. 

 

Rest assured: A LOT more exercises have happened...many improvements have been made...crews have gotten much more experienced with the tank and so on.

Al Khalid (basic) is atleast as accurate as Arjun..unless you claim that Arjun hits 10/10 targets every time under all circumstance at all distances with all variables involved..moving and stationary etc. (Which I'm sure you won't claim because I don't think you are a dumbass)





> *Arjun has speed 72 KM/Hr *...... *what is the advantage of hight Power -t0 -Weight Ratio ??? care to explain? *


*
*
Maximum speed is useless. It has NO battle-field use.

What matters is acceleration and maneuvering of the tank. Tanks with higher power-to-weight ratio have superior acceleration and maneuvering which gives them survival advantage over adversary tanks.

(Suspension and transmission also matter along with Power to Weight ratio)..



> Everything is important in battle field, like *IA reach Siachin before PA , because of Speed .*.... Now you under stand the importance of speed?



Tactics matter also. Searching a vacant place with speed is no biggie. Even jamadars can do it.

When indian aircrafts with more speed faced PAF's fighter jets with lesser speeds, PAF's superior training, caliber, and tactics caused it to hammer iaf in the air in actual air-battles.

But yes, speed has its advantage too. (Speed in battlefied is "acceleration"...not "velocity" as you might imagine. 72km per hour is useless for Arjun AND Al Khalid. What matters is acceleration).



> Arjun Kanchan is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA). This helps in defeating APFDS and HEAT rounds. Trials conducted in 2000, showcased the ability of Kanchan armour to protect the tank, even when hit at point blank range by a T-72. *It also demonstrated the capability to defeat HESH and APFSDS rounds, which included the Israeli APFSDS rounds.* A new honeycomb design of Non-Explosive and Non-Energetic Reactive Armour (NERA) is additional is capable of defecting your DU rounds , if AK even came close in 2KM radius.



Almost every tank's frontal armor is capable of "defecting" most rounds. That's where tactics come. There are A LOT of variables involved in armor battles.

Lastly, firing rounds from T-72 and firing rounds from a full-fledged third generation Al Khalid-1 with modern FCS and more muzzle velocity than even Merkava IV's gun is a completely different thing.

No one doubts that Arjun has a very good armor..but it does not make it "immune" in armor battles against other third generation tanks. Same goes for Merkava IV, Abrams, Al Khalids, Leopards..and everyone out there. No tank, even the best in the world, is immune against other tanks. 




> can you prove that technically ?



Why would I prove when it is proven already? Or you doubt the military results from various countries?

Why is it that 99% of advance Western tanks use smoothbore guns and not rifled? 



> Dose AK has NBC capability ?



Duh, offcourse. lol



> Dose AK can cross Mine fields without getting blown ?



What kind of question is that? lol..

It can cross mine fields without getting blown.

It can not cross mine fields without getting blown.

Both are true.

If a mine is blown right beneath a tank, it will get destroyed. It depends on the situation.


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## Alfa-Fighter

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Hit probability is not a "uniform" category.
> 
> Distance, state of tank (moving, stationary), state of target (moving, stationary), height of tank relevant to the target (is tank firing targets that are not on level field) and alot of other things matter.
> 
> But I can tell you one thing: In military exercises in Sindh desert, Al Khalid (basic) engaged targets while being in _accelerating speeds_ and targets being at maximum distance for Al Khalid rounds...Targets were real-life simulation as well (some targets were moving, some were stationary)...
> 
> Result: 8 out 10 direct hits. 1 miss. 1 hit but target wasn't completely destroyed (partial hit).
> 
> And that is basic Al Khalid. Al Khalid-1 has upgraded FCS with Pakistani-made improved gun.
> 
> You can get an idea of how lethally accurate Al Khalid is.
> 
> 
> 
> Rest assured: A LOT more exercises have happened...many improvements have been made...crews have gotten much more experienced with the tank and so on.
> 
> Al Khalid (basic) is atleast as accurate as Arjun..unless you claim that Arjun hits 10/10 targets every time under all circumstance at all distances with all variables involved..moving and stationary etc. (Which I'm sure you won't claim because I don't think you are a dumbass)



if your don't know Science ,, Smooth more Guns are less accurate then its counterpart and gun also need frequent changing as it can fire less rounds then its Rifled.

It is technology , proven then Rifled Gun is more accurate and long lasting then Smooth Bore guns. Moreover the accuracy of tank gun decreases with distance.

If your technology prove then smooth bore guns more accurate then Rifled guns , then come with technical answer and not fantasy worlds bla bla.... I would not doubt even if your claim that you AK can Hit target in moon or Destroy Indian MAR probe.





TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Maximum speed is useless. It has NO battle-field use.
> 
> What matters is acceleration and maneuvering of the tank. Tanks with higher power-to-weight ratio have superior acceleration and maneuvering which gives them survival advantage over adversary tanks.
> 
> (Suspension and transmission also matter along with Power to Weight ratio)..



*So Arjun is more Power to Weight Ration, you trying to Say Arjun has more advantage in terms of above then AL , Correct? 
*
Check you suspension technology, Indian uses Advance Suspensions technology , what suspension AK uses?





TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Tactics matter also. Searching a vacant place with speed is no biggie. Even jamadars can do it.
> 
> When indian aircrafts with more speed faced PAF's fighter jets with lesser speeds, PAF's superior training, caliber, and tactics caused it to hammer iaf in the air in actual air-battles.
> 
> But yes, speed has its advantage too. (Speed in battlefied is "acceleration"...not "velocity" as you might imagine. 72km per hour is useless for Arjun AND Al Khalid. What matters is acceleration).


tell me the Difference between *Acceleration and Velocity? *

Question , If you have to travel the distance of 300 KM on two tank which has speed of more then 73 KM/Hr and other tank which has 72km/hr but better acceleration, which will reach 300 KM first?

This is physic question even Nursery guy can answer, if you can't please go and read science and then came.

Arjun has more power to weight ratio that means more acceleration and more speed. Didn't you read Science????




TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Almost every tank's frontal armor is capable of "defecting" most rounds. That's where tactics come. There are A LOT of variables involved in armor battles.
> 
> Lastly, firing rounds from T-72 and firing rounds from a full-fledged third generation Al Khalid-1 with modern FCS and more muzzle velocity than even Merkava IV's gun is a completely different thing.
> 
> No one doubts that Arjun has a very good armor..but it does not make it "immune" in armor battles against other third generation tanks. Same goes for Merkava IV, Abrams, Al Khalids, Leopards..and everyone out there. No tank, even the best in the world, is immune against other tanks.



Well every tank made with crew safety, Indian tank made even if it was hit , crew will be safe, their ammunition store is blast proof container. Most tank destroyed after hitting, by their own ammunition blasts.





TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Why would I prove when it is proven already? Or you doubt the military results from various countries?
> 
> Why is it that 99% of advance Western tanks use smoothbore guns and not rifled?


lol, thats why i told read science , Smooth gun based kinetic energy penetrator rounds. The best traditional antitank weapons have been kinetic energy rounds, whose penetrating power and accuracy decrease with range.

with a smoothbore gun being ideal for firing HEAT rounds (although specially designed HEAT rounds can be fired from rifled guns) and rifling being necessary to fire HESH rounds.

These tanks made in past.....thats why carrying old technology. Due some research..



TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> It can cross mine fields without getting blown.
> 
> It can not cross mine fields without getting blown.
> 
> Both are true.
> 
> If a mine is blown right beneath a tank, it will get destroyed. It depends on the situation.



Didn't you read properly , it disable the mines before stepping on it and also clear the with plougf.[/quote]

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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Alfa-Fighter said:


> if your don't know Science ,, Smooth more Guns are less accurate then its counterpart and gun also need frequent changing as it can fire less rounds then its Rifled.



Stop being a dumbass.

You think I don't know all this? Stop going by basic knowledge that you got by reading bunch of online comments/google articles etc.

Have you ever read any actual research paper on tanks? guns? their evolution?

Smoothbore guns are prefered over rifled guns by 90% of professional armies across globe. You think they didn't know their science? LMAO!!

Stop making such brownie points.

Uptil now, you have presented no facts to counter that fact that when looked at from unbiased point of view, Al Khalid-1 surpasses Arjun in mobility and firepower....as proven by statistics given by me on previous page.



> *So Arjun is more Power to Weight Ration, you trying to Say Arjun has more advantage in terms of above then AL , Correct? *



Yes. If Arjun has superior weight-to-power ratio, then it has an advantage over Al Khalid here.

But Arjun's power to weight ratio is inferior to Al Khalid's....unless you show me a credible source that says otherwise. (I'll change my views if you show me evidence).



> Check you suspension technology, Indian uses Advance Suspensions technology , what suspension AK uses?



Equally advance suspension and transmission technologies.



> tell me the Difference between *Acceleration and Velocity? *



Acceleration is real. Velocity is never achieved in battlefields.

lol

If you want to learn more, google it.



> Didn't you read Science????



Don't know, but I definitely studied English...you little kid.






> Well every tank made with crew safety, Indian tank made even if it was hit , crew will be safe, their ammunition store is blast proof container. Most tank destroyed after hitting, by their own ammunition blasts.



Al Khalid's ammunition is also stored in blast-proof container. C'mon, these are basics that EVERY tank has now a days. lol..



Omega007 said:


> And here begins another stupid dick measuring contest..........started by some stupid Pakistani chimpanzee and Indians falling for this crap.



As I said, stop drinking cow p!ss as advised by your hindu religion.

I have presented facts, you can't disprove them. Hence personal attacks lol

Al Khalid is superior to Arjun in firepower and mobility. These are facts as I proved in my posts. You just cant deny that


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## FNFAL

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Al Khalid is superior to Arjun in firepower and mobility. These are facts as I proved in my posts. You just cant deny that



You do realise that mbt 2000(VT-1A), which the AK is a derivative....was specially made for piss poor export customers who could not afford anything better.
Since the chinese themseleves have no faith in them they did not induct the same , even as a replacement for their older soviet clones...They do have 3 of them as training tools ..

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## Ramesh N

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Stop being a dumbass.
> 
> You think I don't know all this? Stop going by basic knowledge that you got by reading bunch of online comments/google articles etc.
> 
> Have you ever read any actual research paper on tanks? guns? their evolution?
> 
> Smoothbore guns are prefered over rifled guns by 90% of professional armies across globe. You think they didn't know their science? LMAO!!
> 
> Stop making such brownie points.
> 
> Uptil now, you have presented no facts to counter that fact that when looked at from unbiased point of view, Al Khalid-1 surpasses Arjun in mobility and firepower....as proven by statistics given by me on previous page.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. If Arjun has superior weight-to-power ratio, then it has an advantage over Al Khalid here.
> 
> But Arjun's power to weight ratio is inferior to Al Khalid's....unless you show me a credible source that says otherwise. (I'll change my views if you show me evidence).
> 
> 
> 
> Equally advance suspension and transmission technologies.
> 
> 
> 
> Acceleration is real. Velocity is never achieved in battlefields.
> 
> lol
> 
> If you want to learn more, google it.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know, but I definitely studied English...you little kid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Al Khalid's ammunition is also stored in blast-proof container. C'mon, these are basics that EVERY tank has now a days. lol..
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, *stop drinking cow p!ss as advised by your hindu religion*.
> 
> I have presented facts, you can't disprove them. Hence personal attacks lol
> 
> *Al Khalid is superior to Arjun in firepower and mobility*. These are facts as I proved in my posts. You just cant deny that



As I said. Stop drinking camel p!ss as advised by your MALSI


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## HariPrasad

Etilla said:


> cost of Arjun mk2 has touched the $10 million mark. Now its the world's most expensive tank and not the best by a long shot.
> 
> The much better Merkava mk4 is at the $6 million mark. Perhaps an ideal replacement for T-72?




Actually a provision in Budget was made for upgrading Awdi factory. It seems that this provision amount is transfered to factory by inflating Arjun price to pass on money to factory for Upgradation.


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## FNFAL

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Exactly.
> And Dumbo, VT-1A is a different tank than Al Khalid-1..with different engine, different Battlefield ItsManagement System, different gun, different /electronics, and fire different rounds all together and so on and on and on...
> Please, stop bringing useless stuff here.
> I have proved with statistics that Al Khalid-1 surpasses Arjun in mobility and firepower. Talk about that



Listen retard, lets quit on the name calling? Deal.
The very fact that you mentioned "avionics" in the same breath as tanks, gives ample proof of your depth , or should i say the lack of it, in analysis two very different tanks.

When you talk of engines. do realise the fact that the chinese were unable to provde you with a reliable tank to begin with, as it had an unreliable engine in their type 90 II design .It was only when the ukranian diesel engine came to the picture, did the cheap tank start to make sense.

Secondly, that gun...pffft...again...that is a uprated T64 cannon, designed waaaay back in the 60s.The ukranians bastardized that version into the KBA series..but in all esence is still the 2A46 cannon. That was needed coz you needed to fire their cannon launched missiles.

And what different ammuntions are you talking about??New names for Heat, Sabot HE ? I am offcourse leaving out the missile

I had some clown saying that the gun is from France ..lolz....If only Giat deserved to care about some idiots fantasy.

Look, at the end of the day , MBT 2000 is a value for money tank.Promises a lot for that cheap price.Certainly, cash strapped nations will look forward to such solutions.You guys took that and improved it to the AK. Please dont compare it with any heavier tank. based on western design

The Ak is simply a rebadged Norinco Type 90IIM, with components sourced from all over the globe and assembled in HIT pak..and if you trace back through the myriad of chinese naming conventions, its a highly evolved T-54 
Truth sounds bitter? Yes. Thats why you should pipe down when being too proud of assembling an uprated t-54


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## kṣamā

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Stop being a dumbass.
> 
> You think I don't know all this? Stop going by basic knowledge that you got by reading bunch of online comments/google articles etc.
> 
> Have you ever read any actual research paper on tanks? guns? their evolution?
> 
> Smoothbore guns are prefered over rifled guns by 90% of professional armies across globe. You think they didn't know their science? LMAO!!


Hmm The argument being that "90% [citation needed] of professional armies across globe" use smoothbore dose not make it better. By the basis of same argument "90% [citation needed] of professional air-force across globe use non stealth aircraft" that does not make non-stealth aircraft better. I know the fallacy of my example but I think I have communicated my drift.

Moreover armies around the globe use smoothbore bcoz they are almost maintenance free and have comparatively higher life without any grove wear and tear. Also they can have relatively simple a cannon launch missile system. 

Now coming to riffled barrel, the only difference is that they induce a lateral spin to the projectile. This inturn gives them Gyroscopic stability. Donn be intimidated by the big word, its just the same force which stops the spinning top from falling down during its spin. Simple. But this gyroscopic force helps a lot in achieving a good accurate hit, by resisting different forces acting on it. Though it will have some spin induced drift but a good firing solution computer with good sensor can mitigate it.

Another issue would be that the spin also eats up on the maximum range. but this has also been taken care by the huge Max Chamber Pressure of 8000bar / 800MPa.


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## Omega007

check1234 said:


> Which part? Maintenance one, APFSDS one, or Challenger one.



No,you got the maintenance part right.The mistake was in the accuracy part.

And the Challenger MkI hitting a T 72M is at 5000 meter - it sounds very cool but I guess you don't know the whole story.I could tell you if you wanted to.

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## Omega007

kṣamā said:


> Hmm The argument being that "90% [citation needed] of professional armies across globe" use smoothbore dose not make it better. By the basis of same argument "90% [citation needed] of professional air-force across globe use non stealth aircraft" that does not make non-stealth aircraft better. I know the fallacy of my example but I think I have communicated my drift.
> 
> Moreover armies around the globe use smoothbore bcoz they are almost maintenance free and have comparatively higher life without any grove wear and tear. Also they can have relatively simple a cannon launch missile system.
> 
> Now coming to riffled barrel, the only difference is that they induce a lateral spin to the projectile. This inturn gives them Gyroscopic stability. Donn be intimidated by the big word, its just the same force which stops the spinning top from falling down during its spin. Simple. But this gyroscopic force helps a lot in achieving a good accurate hit, by resisting different forces acting on it. Though it will have some spin induced drift but a good firing solution computer with good sensor can mitigate it.
> 
> Another issue would be that the spin also eats up on the maximum range. but this has also been taken care by the huge Max Chamber Pressure of 8000bar / 800MPa.




You made a little mistake here bud.It's true that a rifled barrel imparts a lateral spin,which in turn stabilizes a projectile.But it is only true for a projectile with L ratio of less than 6:1 !!But if it is more than that ratio,then lateral spin can not longer stabilize the projectile.In case of a FSAPDS penetrator,its L ratio is 20:1 even for those ancient rounds like DM 33 et al with modern ones like M 338/DM 63/ M 829A2 reaching upwards of 35:1.So quite naturally a rifled gun will never be able to stabilize such a projectile.

That is why they are stabilized by use of fins,like in a arrow.Lateral spin is actually quite a big disadvantage for such a projectile,because it could twist and even break the thin rods in flight even before they could make contact with their targets!!That's why the developers have to put in extra efforts with the FSAPDS rounds envisaged to be fired from rifled barrels (for example,fitting ball bearings in between the sabots and penetrators,in order to keep the penetrators from spinning,making them more complex compared to the ones for smooth barrels).In fact,you can not use other 120mm FSAPDS rounds available on the international market straight away because they are all developed for smooth barrel guns and do not sport the bearings.

So as you can see,an FSAPDS penetrator doesn't spin at all,even if it's fired from a rifled barrel.In fact,one has to take special care just to keep them from spinning on their lateral axis.

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## kṣamā

Omega007 said:


> You made a little mistake here bud.It's true that a rifled barrel imparts a lateral spin,which in turn stabilizes a projectile.But it is only true for a projectile with L ratio of less than 6:1 !!But if it is more than that ratio,then lateral spin can not longer stabilize the projectile.In case of a FSAPDS penetrator,its L ratio is 20:1 even for those ancient rounds like DM 33 et al with modern ones like M 338/DM 63/ M 829A2 reaching upwards of 35:1.So quite naturally a rifled gun will never be able to stabilize such a projectile.
> 
> That is why they are stabilized by use of fins,like in a arrow.Lateral spin is actually quite a big disadvantage for such a projectile,because it could twist and even break the thin rods in flight even before they could make contact with their targets!!That's why the developers have to put in extra efforts with the FSAPDS rounds envisaged to be fired from rifled barrels (for example,fitting ball bearings in between the sabots and penetrators,in order to keep the penetrators from spinning,making them more complex compared to the ones for smooth barrels).In fact,you can not use other 120mm FSAPDS rounds available on the international market straight away because they are all developed for smooth barrel guns and do not sport the bearings.
> 
> So as you can see,an FSAPDS penetrator doesn't spin at all,even if it's fired from a rifled barrel.In fact,one has to take special care just to keep them from spinning on their lateral axis.


Hmm there is something which i dinn knew. But a question how can a lateral spin affect the perpetrator rod ??? A normal common sense tells me that the entire round will spin on an axis which actually lies inside perpetrator rod . And yes u are true, riffled barrel dose need a complex shell design. Also u clarified one of my long standing doubts, about why dose even rifled barrel ammo needs to be fin assisted. 

And about 120mm penetrators, yes those rounds cannot be used just off the shelf but i thought it was more to do with auto-loader carousel . ..


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## Ramesh N

Omega007 said:


> No,you got the maintenance part right.The mistake was in the accuracy part.
> 
> And the Challenger MkI hitting a T 72M is at 5000 meter - it sounds very cool but I guess you don't know the whole story.I could tell you if you wanted to.



I wish to hear that story.........


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## Omega007

kṣamā said:


> Hmm there is something which i dinn knew. But a question how can a lateral spin affect the perpetrator rod ??? A normal common sense tells me that the entire round will spin on an axis which actually lies inside perpetrator rod . And yes u are true, riffled barrel dose need a complex shell design. Also u clarified one of my long standing doubts, about why dose even rifled barrel ammo needs to be fin assisted.
> 
> And about 120mm penetrators, yes those rounds cannot be used just off the shelf but i thought it was more to do with auto-loader carousel . ..



Because the rod is too thin at its cross section,it will tend to wobble at its lateral axis or get twisted along its longitudinal axis and might even break into pieces in mid air even before making an actual impact!!And as I said,lateral spin can only stabilize a projectile with a L ratio of 8-9:1,not more than that (I made a mistake on my above post when I had set the value at 6:1).

And no,the entire round doesn't spin........it should not spin!!The developers have to take special care so that the rod doesn't spin at all or the fins won't work.Just imagine the flight characteristics of an arrow,it's pretty much similar to a FSAPDS penetrator.

And lastly,no,it is not because of the carousels. Arjun tanks do not sport a carousel,so there is no question of compatibility issues.The sole reason is that the commercially available FSAPDS rounds are designed for 120mm smooth barrel guns and hence do not have those bearings fitted inside the sabots,which means they have no means of stopping those penetrators from spinning and breaking apart mid flight along its lenghth.You could still use the penetrators though,but the sabots has to be changed.

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## Omega007

Ramesh N said:


> I wish to hear that story.........



Alright then.As far as I have heard,the Iraqi T 72M was in a stationary position,totally dug in like they frequently used their tanks as stationary gun positions.What happened was something like this - 
The forward platoon,close to that T 72M had an FOO (forward observation officer,guys that direct artillery fire support).He directed the fire of that Challenger MkI through the standard 'triangulation' method.The Challenger started firing with HESH rounds and eventually scored a hit on the upper glacis of that stranded T 72M and it caught fire.All the while the T 72M never moved an inch!!So that is pretty much it.The Challenger neither used an FSAPDS round nor hit it in a single well aimed shot.

Lets make one thing clear here,you can not hit something beyond 3.5-4 km with an FSAPDS round (even that is too much a stretch) even with the most sophisticated FCS due to the dispersal of the rods beyond 3 km.What those Brits achieved is very rare and I wouldn't count on these things if I were you.

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## kṣamā

Omega007 said:


> Because the rod is too thin at its cross section,it will tend to wobble at its lateral axis or get twisted along its longitudinal axis and might even break into pieces in mid air even before making an actual impact!!And as I said,lateral spin can only stabilize a projectile with a L ratio of 8-9:1,not more than that (I made a mistake on my above post when I had set the value at 6:1).
> 
> And no,the entire round doesn't spin........it should not spin!!The developers have to take special care so that the rod doesn't spin at all or the fins won't work.Just imagine the flight characteristics of an arrow,it's pretty much similar to a FSAPDS penetrator.
> 
> And lastly,no,it is not because of the carousels. Arjun tanks do not sport a carousel,so there is no question of compatibility issues.The sole reason is that the commercially available FSAPDS rounds are designed for 120mm smooth barrel guns and hence do not have those bearings fitted inside the sabots,which means they have no means of stopping those penetrators from spinning and breaking apart mid flight along its lenghth.You could still use the penetrators though,but the sabots has to be changed.


hmm.. Nice info. Got a source for that. I would need that to be quoted somewhere else. Also I find it strange that a solid tungsten rod being broken by a vobble. Anyways thanks.


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## Omega007

Yep,I have a source but it's not free.......you have to buy that book and let me warn you,it's not cheap!!I'll tell you the name if you want to.

By the way,the wobble alone doesn't break those rods,it actually makes the rods totally inaccurate. The breakage happens due to the thin cross section and a property called adiabatic shear.


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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Haha,*fucking Chimpanzee *gone rabid.*What happened,forgot to take your daily dosage of camel piss and dog serum today??*And as we are gonna be talking about mother,I'm curious,do you always f*ck your mother before coming to PDF??Ha Kiddo??
> 
> 
> 
> Not really.In this case you are wrong.




Mods....

Why is this guy not banned yet? Look at the word selection !!

@Oscar @Fulcrum15 @Manticore @TaimiKhan

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## The_Sidewinder

any new updates about Arjun Mkii


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## desimorty

> Lets make one thing clear here,you can not hit something beyond 3.5-4 km with an FSAPDS round (even that is too much a stretch) even with the most sophisticated FCS due to the dispersal of the rods beyond 3 km.What those Brits achieved is very rare and I wouldn't count on these things if I were you.
> 
> Source: Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion. | Page 29


Firing sabot rounds beyond 4-5 km? a round that banks on kinetic energy...not a good idea. Hesh yes. at long ranges definitely, doesn't require kinetic energy as much. I've yet to decide if HESH was a choice by IA for PA bunkers/pillers or something DRDO had to develop because they didn't know how to make a smoothbore.


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## Dazzler

jatt said:


> Firing sabot rounds beyond 4-5 km? a round that banks on kinetic energy...not a good idea. Hesh yes. at long ranges definitely, doesn't require kinetic energy as much. I've yet to decide if HESH was a choice by IA for PA bunkers/pillers or something DRDO had to develop because they didn't know how to make a smoothbore.



HESH was/ is utilized with 105mm rifled guns by both sides to good effect for bunkers and fortifications and IA has plenty of them, hence they asked for 120mm version too, much as LAHAT is originally a 105mm round, converted into 120mm compatible one.

Neither of these rounds that fall under heavy explosives catevory, are considered as tank specific, but apfsds penetrators are.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Dazzler said:


> Neither of these rounds that fall under heavy explosives catevory, are considered as *tank specific*, but apfsds penetrators are.


The AT in LAHAT stands for Anti Tank.


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## Dazzler

Lord Of Gondor said:


> The AT in LAHAT stands for Anti Tank.



really?? 

High Explosive Anti Tank rounds are used at long ranges against conventional steel or rolled homogenous armour but their effect is questionable against relatively thick armour. They are useless against a composite layered armour.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Real mature.
I can counter with more emoticons without actually conveying anything,just like you.
I countered your stupid argument where in you said


> Neither of these rounds that fall under heavy explosives catevory, are considered as tank specific


 even though the LAHAT is used as an Anti-Tank GM by Israel,India and Germany on their respective MBT's.

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## Dazzler

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Real mature.
> I can counter with more emoticons without actually conveying anything,just like you.
> I countered your stupid argument where in you said even though the LAHAT is used as an Anti-Tank GM by Israel,India and Germany on their respective MBT's.



yes even then it cannot defeat a composite layered armour module. ATGM are good against rather simple armour types as explained above.


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## Badbadman

FNFAL said:


> You do realise that mbt 2000(VT-1A), which the AK is a derivative....was specially made for piss poor export customers


piss poor customers 
take it easy on these madrassa degree holders man.

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## FNFAL

Badbadman said:


> piss poor customers
> take it easy on these madrassa degree holders man.



Do you know ppl on this forum have actually had multiple mental orgasms thinking about the VT-1 taking out a M1A2 Abram 
Hows that for lunacy?


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## Badbadman

FNFAL said:


> Do you know ppl on this forum have actually had multiple mental orgasms thinking about the VT-1 taking out a M1A2 Abram
> Hows that for lunacy?


Mental orgasms  that they have for sure here.


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## Dazzler

Keep it on Arjun, discuss your personal vandetta somewhere else.


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## Penguin

Lord Of Gondor said:


> The AT in LAHAT stands for Anti Tank.





> LAser Homing ATtack Missile, or LAHAT, is an advanced missile developed and manufactured by the MBT Division of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). It is a light weight missile suitable for precision attack missions


LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology


Dazzler said:


> really??
> 
> High Explosive Anti Tank rounds are used at long ranges against conventional steel or rolled homogenous armour but their effect is questionable against relatively thick armour. They are useless against a composite layered armour.





> The missile uses a tandem warhead which is capable of defeating all types of modern armour, including add-on reactive armour. High penetration capability of the main warhead allows the missile to penetrate the armour of major armoured vehicles at high impact angles.



LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology




> Modern anti-tank missiles such as AGM-114R, Spike, Javelin and TOW provide armed forces with the capability to stop a heavily armoured tank in its tracks
> 
> Spike missiles are fitted with tandem-charge high-explosive, anti-tank (HEAT) warhead
> 
> Javelin is considered the world's best shoulder fired anti-tank weapon. It carries a tandem shaped charge enabling a maximum range of 2,500m.
> 
> The PARS 3 LR missile can carry a tandem shaped-charge warhead covering a range of 7km.
> 
> Kornet EM is an anti-tank guided missile fitted with a tandem HEAT warhead to penetrate 1,100mm to 1,300mm of armour.
> 
> The high-performance armour piercing warhead ensures the LAHAT can penetrate even add-on reactive armour.
> 
> The MILAN ER is fitted with a tandem charge warhead to neutralise new generation explosive reactive armour used by some main battle tanks.
> 
> The single shape charge warhead of the NLAW has been designed to defeat modern MBTs fitted with ERA.


The world’s deadliest anti-tank missiles - Army Technology



> The *9M119 Svir* and *9M119M Refleks* are laser beam riding, guided anti-tank missiles developed in the former Soviet Union Both are designed to be fired from smooth bore 125 mm tank and anti-tank guns The tandem warhead can penetrate up to 900mm of armor (35.4 inches).[.


9M119 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If HEAT rounds are so useless, why are we still seeing to many of them? Why are they still in the newest of anti-armour missiles?

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## Dazzler

Penguin said:


> LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology
> 
> 
> 
> The world’s deadliest anti-tank missiles - Army Technology
> 
> 
> 9M119 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If HEAT rounds are so useless, why are we still seeing to many of them? Why are they still in the newest of anti-armour missiles?



they are not useless, but they are not aimed specifically for anti tank role. For example, a apfsds penetrator has its limitations in range, usual range varies between 1.5-2.5 or 3 km in some cases at best. a atgm usually has longer engagement range so it mightwork beyond 3km. Regarding tandem warhead, it depends what threat is it used against. a high quality composite armour such as burlington was aimed to take multiple hits from all threats, more so from heat rounds.

In essence, modern composite armour modules based on multiple layers with different materials is a hard nut to crack for any heat round, be it a tandem or single warhead.


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## Penguin

Dazzler said:


> they are not useless, but they are not aimed specifically for anti tank role. For example, a apfsds penetrator has its limitations in range, usual range varies between 1.5-2.5 or 3 km in some cases at best. a atgm usually has longer engagement range so it mightwork beyond 3km. Regarding tandem warhead, it depends what threat is it used against. a high quality composite armour such as burlington was aimed to take multiple hits from all threats, more so from heat rounds.
> 
> In essence, modern composite armour modules based on multiple layers with different materials is a hard nut to crack for any heat round, be it a tandem or single warhead.


There are few if any APFSDS rounds for use by infrantry. Hence, most RPG ad ATGWs use a heat warhead, some with precursor charge.

Tank gun fired ATGW tend to be inferior to infantry ATGWs due to the limitation the barrel poses on missile and warhead diameter, and hence penetration. Javelin is 127mm. Kornet and TOW missiles for example have 152mm diameter, Spike 170mm, Hellfire 178mm. Lahat can be no more than 120mm. AT11 no more than 125mm.

Missiles that use tandem charges include the BGM-71 TOW, FGM-148 Javelin, Brimstone and the MBT LAW.

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## The_Sidewinder

Wich ApFsds round being used by our Arjun MBT's??? What is the penatration power of that round???


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## Dazzler

The_Sidewinder said:


> Wich ApFsds round being used by our Arjun MBT's??? What is the penatration power of that round???









not sufficient to penetrate composite armour..


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## Penguin

The Rheinmetall DM33 for the LEO2's 120L44 has a three-part aluminum sabot and a two-part tungsten penetrator, and is said to be able to penetrate 560 millimetres (22 in) of steel armor at a range of 2,000 meters (2,200 yd).


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## Daedalus

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 122790
> 
> 
> not sufficient to penetrate composite armour..


The same page also displayed this





To one question the writer also answered. "*New 120mm & 125mm APFSDS rounds with 600mm RHA penetration capability is now in an advanced stage of development. 125mm APFSDS round with 500mm RHA penetration capability is already under bulk production.*"


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## Dazzler

Daedalus said:


> The same page also displayed this
> View attachment 124836
> 
> 
> To one question the writer also answered. "*New 120mm & 125mm APFSDS rounds with 600mm RHA penetration capability is now in an advanced stage of development. 125mm APFSDS round with 500mm RHA penetration capability is already under bulk production.*"



arjun cant fire them, 125mm ammo



Penguin said:


> The Rheinmetall DM33 for the LEO2's 120L44 has a three-part aluminum sabot and a two-part tungsten penetrator, and is said to be able to penetrate 560 millimetres (22 in) of steel armor at a range of 2,000 meters (2,200 yd).



dm33 is obsolete intodays battlefield


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## Penguin

Dazzler said:


> dm33 is obsolete into days battlefield


Where did I says it was the most modern? I posted for purpose of comparison of penetration at same range. What is the problem?


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## Daedalus

One of the most prestigious and ambitious weapon system project undertaken at ARDE is the 120mm Main Armament and Ammunition system for the ARJUN MBT. This is a high-technology program involving a number of disciplines. ARDE has developed a super velocity gun and a family of ammunition with FSAPDS as the primary kinetic energy kill mechanism. It can be confidently stated that the fire power of ARJUN would be comparable with the contemporary MBTs available in the world. It may be noted that only four gun systems in this performance class have been developed abroad namely in UK, Federal Republic of Germany, France and Russia. Even the US and Japan have opted to adopt and licence produce the German 120mm Rheinmetall gun. *Our Scientists and engineers, therefore, are justifiably proud to have joined this exclusive `club" with totally indigenous technology. *The armament and ammunition system are under current production at OFB.

DRDO




Dazzler said:


> arjun cant fire them, 125mm ammo


Please read the bold part again, it clearly says new 120mm APFSDS rounds with 600mm RHA penetration capability is now in an advanced stage of development.


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## Dazzler

Daedalus said:


> *Why DRDO adopted 120mm Rheinmetall gun for Arjun?*
> One of the most prestigious and ambitious weapon system project undertaken at ARDE is the 120mm Main Armament and Ammunition system for the ARJUN MBT. This is a high-technology program involving a number of disciplines. ARDE has developed a super velocity gun and a family of ammunition with FSAPDS as the primary kinetic energy kill mechanism. It can be confidently stated that the fire power of ARJUN would be comparable with the contemporary MBTs available in the world. It may be noted that only four gun systems in this performance class have been developed abroad namely in UK, Federal Republic of Germany, France and Russia. Even the US and Japan have opted to adopt and licence produce the German 120mm Rheinmetall gun. Our Scientists and engineers, therefore, are justifiably proud to have joined this exclusive `club" with totally indigenous technology. The armament and ammunition system are under current production at OFB.
> 
> DRDO
> 
> 
> 
> Please read the bold part again, it clearly says new 120mm APFSDS rounds with 600mm RHA penetration capability is now in an advanced stage of development.



it is Yet to be developed, tested and deployed, which means it is notin service, which means Arjun cant fire an underdevelopment round. Hope you got it.



Penguin said:


> Where did I says it was the most modern? I posted for purpose of comparison of penetration at same range. What is the problem?



i fail to grasp the comparison, if it was in service with Arjun, if it could be fired with a rifled gun, it would make sense.


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## Penguin

Daedalus said:


> *Why DRDO adopted 120mm Rheinmetall gun for Arjun?*
> One of the most prestigious and ambitious weapon system project undertaken at ARDE is the 120mm Main Armament and Ammunition system for the ARJUN MBT. This is a high-technology program involving a number of disciplines. ARDE has developed a super velocity gun and a family of ammunition with FSAPDS as the primary kinetic energy kill mechanism. It can be confidently stated that the fire power of ARJUN would be comparable with the contemporary MBTs available in the world. It may be noted that only four gun systems in this performance class have been developed abroad namely in UK, Federal Republic of Germany, France and Russia. Even the US and Japan have opted to adopt and licence produce the German 120mm Rheinmetall gun. Our Scientists and engineers, therefore, are justifiably proud to have joined this exclusive `club" with totally indigenous technology. The armament and ammunition system are under current production at OFB.
> 
> DRDO



They didn't adopt a Rheinmetall smoothbore 120mm. They developed their own 120mm rifled gun.


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## Daedalus

Penguin said:


> They didn't adopt a Rheinmetall smoothbore 120mm. They developed their own 120mm rifled gun.


Then what exclusive club are they talking about here?


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## Daedalus

Dazzler said:


> it is Yet to be developed, tested and deployed, which means it is notin service, which means Arjun cant fire an underdevelopment round. Hope you got it.


Does it mean that T72's ammo have more penetration than this T-1?




What does the highlighted part mean? Isn't it related to penetration.


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## osama zafar

Nice tank indeed


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## Penguin

Daedalus said:


> Then what exclusive club are they talking about here?





> It may be noted that only four gun systems in this performance class have been developed abroad namely in UK, Federal Republic of Germany, France and Russia. Even the US and Japan have opted to adopt and licence produce the German 120mm Rheinmetall gun.



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii-mbt-development-l-updates-discussion.292466/page-30#ixzz3FrB5V0ts
That is in reference to:
UK developed the Royal Ordnance 120mm L30 rifled gun for Challenge 2 and L11A5 before.
Germany developed the Rheinmetall 120mm L44 smoothbore gun (licenced to US, Japan) for Leopard 2
France developed the GIAT 120 mm GIAT G1 smoothbore gun (L/52) for AMX-40 and CN120-26/52 L52 smoothbore for LeClerc
Russia developed the 125mm 2A75 and 2A46 (D-81T) L48 smoothbore cannons

But there are also:
Italy's Oto Breda developed a 120mm L44 smoothbore, which apparently is not a Rheinmetal copy (but who knows).
Israel developed a IMI 120mm L44 smoothbore gun, which supposedly is not a Rheinmetal copy (but who knows).
Ruag of Switzerland developed the 120mm Compact Tank Gun smoothbore.
Ukraine 125mm KBA3, 125 mm KBM1M / 120 mm KBM2 tank guns
Still it is a small group, to which India can be added for developing its own 120mm rifled gun.

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## Daedalus

@Penguin There is lot of confusion regarding the penetration power of DRDO T-1 FSAPDS round. 








On one it says penetration 300 RHA @ 2000m, while other says its capable of defeating triple heavy standard NATO target @ 5000m. What is the relation between RHA and Triple heavy NATO target and how does this fair when compared to other 120mm FSAPDS?


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## Penguin

> The purpose of the triple heavy target is to represent the difficulty a projectile would face in penetrating the skirt, roadwheel, and hull of a Soviet tank.


NATO targets - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Triple Heavy Target - First layer is a 10mm plate (412-438 kp/mm² hardness) at 60 degrees, followed by a 330mm air gap, followed by a 25mm plate (100-122 kp/mm² hardness), followed by another 330mm air gap, and then an 80mm plate of 308-353 kp/mm² hardness.

This target represents a notional Soviet heavy tank impacted on the side skirt at 30 degree angle off axis, so that the round needs to penetrate the side skirt, the wheel, and then side hull. This test is intended for testing HEAT rounds, hence all the spacing. The triple target is harder for HEAT than KE due top all those airgaps. In terms of date of introduction, this is a very old target that goes back to the days before reactive, ceramic and composite armor.


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## Dazzler

Daedalus said:


> Does it mean that T72's ammo have more penetration than this T-1?
> View attachment 125910
> 
> What does the highlighted part mean? Isn't it related to penetration.



as of now, t72 uses bm-42 mango penetrator with average penetration of 440-460mm armour at 2000 meter so technically yes it penetrates more armour than Arjun's apfsds.
The highlighted part represents a typical nato style ttipple hardness, thiugh obsolete in todays terms, shell that penetrates 300mm armour @ 2000m will penetrate even less at 2500m, 3000m if it reached that far. You see, there aremany factors involved, velocity, length diameter ratio etc. The reason why 2000m is usually given is because it is a safe engagement range where a penetrator often performs at optimum level, going farther, percormance reduces.


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## Mujraparty

DRDO

Explosive Reactive Armour






ERA MK-1

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## Abingdonboy



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## Capt.Popeye

eowyn said:


> DRDO
> 
> Explosive Reactive Armour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERA MK-1



Status Report: Mk-1 ERA tested against Milan, TOW and Bakhtar Shikan. Now operationalised. 
Mk-2 ERA under development.

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## Gessler

Capt.Popeye said:


> Status Report: Mk-1 ERA tested against Milan, TOW and Bakhtar Shikan. Now operationalised.
> Mk-2 ERA under development.



How can they test it against BS?

I don't dispute that if it's good enough against Milan & TOW, then BS is not an issue, but how did they test it against it?

I'm also assuming they bought a few test rounds of TOW from US?


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## Capt.Popeye

Gessler said:


> How can they test it against BS?
> 
> I don't dispute that if it's good enough against Milan & TOW, then BS is not an issue, but how did they test it against it?
> 
> I'm also assuming they bought a few test rounds of TOW from US?



The IA has rounds of the BS also...... 
As well as complete launcher-sets of Stingers and Anzas............. Remember Kargil?

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## Dazzler

Capt.Popeye said:


> The IA has rounds of the BS also......
> As well as complete launcher-sets of Stingers and Anzas............. Remember Kargil?



prove it or it never happened. as far as BS is concerned, there exists many variants with single/tandem warheads are wire/ mmw guidance. No stinger was used in kargil, anza was enough for migs.

now if you want to rant further, open a new thread or stay on topic.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Dazzler said:


> prove it or it never happened.. No stinger was used in kargil, anza was enough for migs.



How many anti-tank/anti-aircraft missiles were destroyed during the 1988 Ojri camp disaster?


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## Dazzler

eowyn said:


> DRDO
> 
> Explosive Reactive Armour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERA MK-1



obsolete k-1 based 1st generation ERA, never mind the marketing slang


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## Krate M

Dazzler said:


> No stinger was used in kargil, anza was enough for miga.


Actually I remember reading a Pakistani news article saying the other way round. That was why IAF was capable of carrying out so many raids. That was also the reason for upgraded version of anza post kargil.

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## Dazzler

Krate M said:


> Actually I remember reading a Pakistani news article saying the other way round. That was why IAF was capable of carrying out so many raids. That was also the reason for upgraded version of anza post kargil.



open another thread on kargil story, the thread is on arjun mbt. In brief, your post is factually incorrect.


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## Krate M

Dazzler said:


> open another thread on kargil story, the thread is on arjun mbt. In brief, your post is factually incorrect.


I wish I had the link to prove it. But the gist of it was that mk1 failed and was immediately withdrawn after kargil. Stingers and mk2 worked. But mk2 numbers were not high. 
Wikipedia says mk1 withdrawn in just 9 yrs.
If I find the link I will open the thread.


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## Dazzler

Krate M said:


> I wish I had the link to prove it. But the gist of it was that mk1 failed and was immediately withdrawn after kargil. Stingers and mk2 worked. But mk2 numbers were not high.
> Wikipedia says mk1 withdrawn in just 9 yrs.
> If I find the link I will open the thread.



open a new thread when you find one, spare this thread. Afterall, it is on Arjun isnt it


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## Krate M

Dazzler said:


> open a new thread when you find one, spare this thread. Afterall, it is on Arjun isnt it


Sure thing mate, will link you too. Back to regular program


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## Capt.Popeye

Dazzler said:


> prove it or it never happened. as far as BS is concerned, there exists many variants with single/tandem warheads are wire/ mmw guidance. No stinger was used in kargil, anza was enough for migs.
> 
> now if you want to rant further, open a new thread or stay on topic.



LOLLLL, who gives a ratsa$$ what you want to believe! 
I said what I did on the basis of 'substantiated information' including my own eye-witness experience.
But just to point you in the right direction; just check with @Ulla; he even posted some pictures of part of the stock-pile here on pdf........
But getting that stuff was a breakthrough........... helped to fine-tune all the CMs.

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## chairborne ranger

The pic in question, is for the rounds the arjun was tested with. Thee tech had remained static mostly. 
Currently, RHAe on the new rounds, which are operationalised, as claimed by ARCI scientists is somewhere between 570-590mm. Obviously, they are looking at producing better penetrators, but for all its worth, at this point of time, these are the rounds being produced..

Mk2 was linked to the development of a better round as well. 
These were reveled to public for this year's DEFEXPO.


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## sathya

What missile development or procurement, we are planning post lahat failure ?


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## Lord Of Gondor

sathya said:


> What missile development or procurement, we are planning post lahat failure ?


Cannon launched,Laser Guided Missile(CLGM):Test fired in 2013


> CLGM Testfired: The DRDO on Monday conducted tests of an advanced version of Cannon-launched Laser Guided Missile (CLGM) from the ITR here.
> 
> Three rounds of the missile were test-fired from a specially built launcher at the launching complex-II of ITR. A defence official said the missile destroyed the targets as expected.
> 
> “The tests were conducted in between 3.30 pm and 4.30 pm during low tide period. There will be one more round of test on Tuesday,” he said.


DRDO readies for tests of Pinaka versions -The New Indian Express

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## Water Car Engineer

Mark 1 practicing at Thar.

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## skysthelimit

*India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition*
Oct. 21, 2014 - 03:45AM | By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI






*NEW DELHI* — The Indian Defence Ministry — faced with a shortage of ammunition for its Russian-made T-90 tanks, coupled with an inability to produce ammunition at home — has no choice but to give in to Russian terms and purchase marked-up ammo from Moscow, an MoD source said.

The MoD reluctantly agreed to the deal last month, despite the fact that Russia hiked the price by 20 percent and refused to accept offset obligations.

Russia will receive a $197 million contract for the fin-stabilized armor-piercing discarding sabot. In 2011, the asking price for the same order was $163 million.

Besides jacking up the price, the Russians also refused to transfer technology for making the rounds to the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), a demand India has been making for the past five years, the MoD source added. A diplomat from the Russian Embassy merely said the sale of T-90 ammunition was on agreed-upon terms, and refused to give details.

India was forced to agree to the terms because OFB’s efforts at making the ammunition failed, an Indian Army official said.

“India bought T-90 tanks from Russia without transfer of technology for ammunition, which has resulted in perpetual shortages for the ammunition,” the official said.

“There were reportedly multiple problems in procurement of T-90 tank ammunition,” said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst. “The ammunition produced in India was not compatible with the fire-control system of the tanks, thus these have to be modified. The Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO] has not been able to resolve the problem, hence there is a challenge. Meanwhile, there was apparently no fallback plan, thus orders had to be made to the single supplier, which hiked the prices thus compounding the problems.”

A DRDO official said technology for the ammunition actually has been developed and transferred to OFB.

The Indian Army official, however, said the ammunition developed by DRDO is only for the T-72 tanks. The ammunition failed when it was used in the T-90 tanks.

“The OFB has failed to produce ammunition for T-90 tanks because it is far more sophisticated than ammunition for Russian made T-72 tanks,” Bhonsle said. “Because in the case of T-90 ammunition, there are intricate linkages with the fire-control computer.”

“The way out of the ammunition crisis is the need to tie up with overseas original equipment manufactures [OEMs],” said defense analyst Nitin Mehta. The rise in demand for T-90 ammunition as the fleet strength increases will be an attraction for OEMs to come forward to partner with Indian companies in producing the required ammunition, Mehta said.

The Indian Army operates more than 500 T-90 tanks, and plans to increase the strength to more than 1,300 by 2020 through license-production at Indian facilities.

An executive at a domestic private company said OFB has a monopoly on ammunition.

“The private companies [focus on] propellant and explosives, and not in the filling of the shell or rocket motor,” the executive said.

India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## Gessler

skysthelimit said:


> *India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition*
> Oct. 21, 2014 - 03:45AM | By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
> 
> View attachment 144906
> 
> 
> *NEW DELHI* — The Indian Defence Ministry — faced with a shortage of ammunition for its Russian-made T-90 tanks, coupled with an inability to produce ammunition at home — has no choice but to give in to Russian terms and purchase marked-up ammo from Moscow, an MoD source said.
> 
> The MoD reluctantly agreed to the deal last month, despite the fact that Russia hiked the price by 20 percent and refused to accept offset obligations.
> 
> Russia will receive a $197 million contract for the fin-stabilized armor-piercing discarding sabot. In 2011, the asking price for the same order was $163 million.
> 
> Besides jacking up the price, the Russians also refused to transfer technology for making the rounds to the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), a demand India has been making for the past five years, the MoD source added. A diplomat from the Russian Embassy merely said the sale of T-90 ammunition was on agreed-upon terms, and refused to give details.
> 
> India was forced to agree to the terms because OFB’s efforts at making the ammunition failed, an Indian Army official said.
> 
> “India bought T-90 tanks from Russia without transfer of technology for ammunition, which has resulted in perpetual shortages for the ammunition,” the official said.
> 
> “There were reportedly multiple problems in procurement of T-90 tank ammunition,” said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst. “The ammunition produced in India was not compatible with the fire-control system of the tanks, thus these have to be modified. The Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO] has not been able to resolve the problem, hence there is a challenge. Meanwhile, there was apparently no fallback plan, thus orders had to be made to the single supplier, which hiked the prices thus compounding the problems.”
> 
> A DRDO official said technology for the ammunition actually has been developed and transferred to OFB.
> 
> The Indian Army official, however, said the ammunition developed by DRDO is only for the T-72 tanks. The ammunition failed when it was used in the T-90 tanks.
> 
> “The OFB has failed to produce ammunition for T-90 tanks because it is far more sophisticated than ammunition for Russian made T-72 tanks,” Bhonsle said. “Because in the case of T-90 ammunition, there are intricate linkages with the fire-control computer.”
> 
> “The way out of the ammunition crisis is the need to tie up with overseas original equipment manufactures [OEMs],” said defense analyst Nitin Mehta. The rise in demand for T-90 ammunition as the fleet strength increases will be an attraction for OEMs to come forward to partner with Indian companies in producing the required ammunition, Mehta said.
> 
> The Indian Army operates more than 500 T-90 tanks, and plans to increase the strength to more than 1,300 by 2020 through license-production at Indian facilities.
> 
> An executive at a domestic private company said OFB has a monopoly on ammunition.
> 
> “The private companies [focus on] propellant and explosives, and not in the filling of the shell or rocket motor,” the executive said.
> 
> India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition | Defense News | defensenews.com



What's this doing in Arjun Mk-2 thread?


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## Water Car Engineer

Demo of Mark 1.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## ashish1

Water Car Engineer said:


> Demo of Mark 1.


Saw this tank very closely.


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## ni8mare

Daedalus said:


> There is lot of confusion regarding the penetration power of DRDO T-1 FSAPDS round.
> View attachment 125965
> View attachment 125966
> 
> On one it says penetration 300 RHA @ 2000m, while other says its capable of defeating triple heavy standard NATO target @ 5000m. What is the relation between RHA and Triple heavy NATO target and how does this fair when compared to other 120mm FSAPDS?


T-1 is discontinued in favour of capable israeli rounds
now they made this ............check this....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Daedalus

ni8mare said:


> T-1 is discontinued in favour of capable israeli rounds
> now they made this ............check this....


I know that. Check my post #443.


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## Penguin

skysthelimit said:


> *India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition*
> Oct. 21, 2014 - 03:45AM | By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
> 
> View attachment 144906
> 
> 
> 
> The Indian Army official, however, said the ammunition developed by DRDO is only for the T-72 tanks. The ammunition failed when it was used in the T-90 tanks.
> 
> “The OFB has failed to produce ammunition for T-90 tanks because it is far more sophisticated than ammunition for Russian made T-72 tanks,” Bhonsle said. “Because in the case of T-90 ammunition, there are intricate linkages with the fire-control computer.”



Do not both use the 125mm 2A46 smoothbore tank gun?
Can't India get ammunition from elsewehere (e.g. Ukraine ;-)


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Penguin said:


> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii-mbt-development-l-updates-discussion.292466/page-30#ixzz3FrB5V0ts
> That is in reference to:
> UK developed the Royal Ordnance 120mm L30 rifled gun for Challenge 2 and L11A5 before.
> Germany developed the Rheinmetall 120mm L44 smoothbore gun (licenced to US, Japan) for Leopard 2
> France developed the GIAT 120 mm GIAT G1 smoothbore gun (L/52) for AMX-40 and CN120-26/52 L52 smoothbore for LeClerc
> Russia developed the 125mm 2A75 and 2A46 (D-81T) L48 smoothbore cannons
> 
> But there are also:
> Italy's Oto Breda developed a 120mm L44 smoothbore, which apparently is not a Rheinmetal copy (but who knows).
> Israel developed a IMI 120mm L44 smoothbore gun, which supposedly is not a Rheinmetal copy (but who knows).
> Ruag of Switzerland developed the 120mm Compact Tank Gun smoothbore.
> Ukraine 125mm KBA3, 125 mm KBM1M / 120 mm KBM2 tank guns
> Still it is a small group, to which India can be added for developing its own 120mm rifled gun.



We developed a 125 smooth bore based on KBA-3


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## CONNAN

*Arjun Vs T-90 Comparision*

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## The Great One

CONNAN said:


> *Arjun Vs T-90 Comparision*


Cool.
So what happened after these evaluations. Who won?


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## CONNAN

The Great One said:


> Cool.
> So what happened after these evaluations. Who won?



as you can see T-90 has relaxed norms but arjun has been though some strict procedures and arjuns has successfully completed


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## The Great One

CONNAN said:


> as you can see T-90 has relaxed norms but arjun has been though some strict procedures and arjuns has successfully completed


hmmm...
I was hoping they would have conducted comparative evaluations (with the above noted benchmarks of course). Never mind.


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## sathya

Why would they relax conditions for T90 in a comparative trial ?

due to difference in categories?

or they knew before hand T90 can achieve only so much?


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## MehrotraPrince

*ABSENCE OF LEVEL PLAYING FIELD*
_______________________________

The most significant setback to production of MBT Arjun was the change in requirements put forth by the Army in February 2007. The tanks produced by HVF, Avadi were to be issued to the Army after inspection at the factory site in the Joint Receipt Inspection by the representatives of HVF, DRDO and Army. The issued tanks were put through two trials - the Field Trial and the Accelerated usage-cum-reliability trials (AUCRT), by the Army. Joint Receipt Inspection was conducted (March 2005) for first five MBT Arjun manufactured (2003-04) in the pilot phase, one year after production. The inspection of the second lot of nine pilot MBT Arjun, took place in February 2007, two years after production. By 2007, 53 MBT had already been produced by HVF, Avadi. It was during this inspection in February 2007 that Army reported water ingress in the fighting compartment of tank while crossing shallow parts of a river and raised two additional requirements in the design of the MBT Arjun viz. zero level ingress of water in the fighting compartment and lead time for fording (time from tank’s entry into water to exit from water) to be minimised to 30 minutes.

We noticed that the corresponding benchmark fixed by the Army for T-90 tank was more relaxed, allowing 2.5 litres of water ingress. The requirement of zero level water ingress for medium fording was not stipulated in the Army’s requirements (GSQR of 1985) or in subsequent stages of development which had seen many changes in design. In fact, the Joint Action Plan (of Army and DRDO), in August 1999, had cleared the medium fording capability of MBT Arjun. This issue was also not raised in the Joint Receipt Inspection of the first batch of pilot MBT Arjun. The new requirements necessitated the DRDO to modify the design of the second lot of nine pilot MBT Arjun. The same got modified and were issued to Army by September 2007. The first lot of five pilot tanks was brought back from Army, got modified and issued to Army till October 2007. Balance 39 tanks of the bulk production were dismantled, reworked and issued to the Army in 2008-10. The whole task of dismantling and reassembly of 53 MBTs entailed an additional cost of Rs 84 lakh. The Ministry stated (May 2014) that modifications were considered essential to improve overall performance from user’s perspective. The reply undermines the impact of the modifications in derailing the production and issue of MBT Arjun, which was a significant factor that led to an import of T-90 tanks that cost Rs 4,913 crore in November 2007 as discussed in Paragraph 8.3.4. The reply also does not address why the benchmarks on MBT Arjun regarding water ingress and fording, were more stringent than the corresponding requirements on T-90 tank.

Medium fording was one of the eight instances we noticed, where Army placed benchmark of parameters on MBT Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks. These are detailed in Annexure XIX. We could not assess the impact of these benchmarks on the performance of the two tanks from our scrutiny of the Report on comparative trials of MBT Arjun and T-90 tank (February/ March 2010- referred to in Paragraph 8.3.2.8 ). While we appreciate the Army’s quest for improving the quality of MBT Arjun, the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field and more importantly, the inability to freeze the designs led to several changes in design, consequent delays in acceptance of MBT Arjun by the Army and in the overall, the production and issue of MBT Arjun.

___________________________

*IMPACT OF 'EVOLVING' GSQRs*
___________________________


*Changes in design*

Mention was made in Report No. 3 of 2006 of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India about the frequent changes in design leading to delay in development of MBT Arjun. The development of MBT prototype was to be completed by April 1982 but after going through several modifications in design, the prototype was cleared by the Army in 1998. Given this concern on several changes in design, the Scientific Advisor to the Raksha Mantri had confirmed (2004) in a note to the Ministry that the design for MBT stood frozen. This was, however, not the case. We found that 316 amendments to design of various assemblies were carried out even after freezing of the design and up to August 2010. The changes were mostly justified by the Ministry in its reply (May 2014) as necessitated for product improvement and modifications based on user’s feedback on quality problems. The reply does not take cognizance of the fact that even after clearing the production after acceptance of the prototype (1998), the designs continued to be re-worked for 12 years thereafter and frozen only in 2010.

_________________________________

*ARJUN - T-90 COMPARATIVE TRIALS*
_________________________________


Comparative field trials of MBT Arjun with T-90 tanks took place in February/ March 2010. Till such time, the Army had been consistently reporting quality problems in MBT Arjun; this was also reported to the Standing Committee on Defence (2007-08). The comparative trials were on four parameters viz. fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues of the tank with weightage of 40, 35, 15 and 10 respectively. As per the trial report, MBT Arjun performed marginally better than the T-90 tank in accuracy and consistency of firepower. However, T-90 tank performed better in lethality and missile firing capability. The Army concluded (April 2010) that “Arjun had performed creditably and it could be employed both for offensive and defensive tasks with same efficacy of T-90 tank.” The Army also recommended upgrades to make the Arjun tank a superior weapon platform. We were informed (February 2014) that the Mark-II version of MBT Arjun was under trials by the Army and that it would include the upgrades recommended by the Army.

We found that the MBT Arjun and T-90 tank were not exactly comparable in missile firing ability; the higher score of T-90 tank was mainly due to missile firing ability which was not in the design of MBT Arjun. Barring missile firing ability, the scores of MBT Arjun and T-90 tank would be 25.77 and 24.50 respectively in firepower. In the overall comparative score, T-90 tank scored 75.01, marginally higher than MBT Arjun which scored 72.46, mainly because of higher score on missile firing ability of T-90 tank.

__________________

*T-90 PRODUCTION*
__________________


The Russian Firm, M/s Rosoboronexport (ROE) was expected to transfer the design details in the Transfer-of-Technology (ToT) documents by March 2003. The documents were in Russian; the Army/Ordnance Factories’ efforts to get translated documents from ROE, failed. The documents were received between September 2001 and January 2003 following which HVF, Avadi concluded four contracts between September 2003 and September 2006 for translation of the documents. The translation was completed by July 2007 after the expiry of scheduled delivery period of first batch of 50 indigenous tanks by 2006-07. In all, the translation of ToT documents took almost six years.

The Ministry stated (May 2014) that translation of critical documents for indigenous manufacturing was carried out with available resource of Russian translators at HVF and there was no delay in production due to pending translation. The reply is not acceptable because delay in translation of ToT documents had certainly impacted on the indigenous production of T-90 tanks as production could not commence without the availability of translated documents.

Non-receipt of design documents for critical assemblies

We found that ToT documents in respect of some critical assemblies were not transferred by the Russian manufacturer, ROE, even after lapse of 12 years as of July 2013. An important component was the gun system (including barrel) for which the design had not been received as of May 2014. In fact, the Ministry cited this issue as the main reason for slippage in indigenous production of T-90 tank.

________________________________

*QUALITY PROBLEMS WITH THE T-90*
________________________________

During March 2010 to November 2013, HVF received 45 defect reports (DRs) from the Army relating to minor and major defects in the indigenous T-90 tanks. The defects mainly pertained to failure of gear box and defects in auto/electrical portion of the tanks. A Working Group was proposed (March 2012) to address these deficiencies which was not formed. The HVF, Avadi constituted (November 2004) a Failure Review Board (FRB) at factory level to investigate the reasons for defects at the users end. The FRB discussed (September 2013) the major failures and recommended remedial measures.

Accordingly, HVF implemented:

• a process audit to eliminate non-conformances in assembling process;
• introduction of 100 per cent pre-fitment and component level inspection and additional quality assurance checks at local supplier’s premises;
• extensive trials of samples supplied by the local firms after introducing improvements and before their induction into regular production; and
• deputing of HVF’s teams to field locations to ensure technical and maintenance support to the users.

Ministry told us that the FRB was a quality tool which facilitated timely action on defects. The delay in discussion of the FRB (September 2013), even when
the Army was raising quality concerns since March 2010, was not however, commented upon by the Ministry.

___________________

*PRODUCTION RATE*
___________________

*Arjun:*

The Public Accounts Committee had urged (December 2003) the Ministry to utilize the infrastructural facilities optimally so that the desired volume of production of MBT Arjun would enable increase of the indigenous content to 55 per cent. The Ministry assured the Committee that a production level, initially of 300 MBT Arjun to be raised to 500 tank later, would reduce the import content to under 30 per cent.

However, barring the initial indent of 124 tanks, the Board did not receive any further indents for MBT Arjun. Production has come to standstill since 2009-10 and to that extent, capacity created at a cost of Rs 87 crore for annual production of 30 MBT Arjun awaits utilization against Ministry’s decision for fresh orders. Meanwhile, HVF, Avadi holds idle inventory of Rs 128 crore reflected as “Work-in-progress”, which remains unutilised in the absence of fresh orders. The cost per MBT Arjun was Rs 21 crore (2009-10), against which the import content was Rs 13 crore. This brings the level of indigenisation in MBT Arjun to 38 per cent only. The initial development project on MBT Arjun had envisaged that barring the engine, all components/assemblies would be indigenously produced. Problems in sourcing major assemblies other than engines have been discussed in Paragraph 8.3.2.6.

*T-90:*

The production of T-90 tank at HVF, Avadi was short of the indent of November 2004 for 300 tanks, by 75 tanks as of March 2013. Even as the production was underway against the first indent, the Army placed a second indent for 236 T-90 tanks in December 2013. Meanwhile, the Ministry sanctioned (September 2011) Rs 971 crore for capacity augmentation of T-90 tank production by March 2014. This was expected to raise the capacity of Ordnance Factories from 100 per cent to 140 per cent of T-90 tanks.

It is noteworthy that Rs 96 crore was sanctioned (February 2004) for creating production capacity for 100 T-90 tanks, whereas augmentation of capacity from 100 to 140 tanks is slated for Rs 971 crore, a ten times increase in estimation over a period of seven years. Reasons for the extraordinary increase were not provided by the Ministry, in its response of May 2014. As of March 2014, only an amount of Rs 17 crore had been spent on the augmentation project and in the revised schedule, the project is expected to be completed in December 2016. The Board appears to have put the augmentation plan on a slow track as of now.

Report no-35 of 2014

Reactions: Like Like:
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## CONNAN

sathya said:


> Why would they relax conditions for T90 in a comparative trial ?
> 
> due to difference in categories?
> 
> or they knew before hand T90 can achieve only so much?


hey bro as you have seen in the past and in the present some section in our army and MOD as unconditional love for Tin cans


----------



## Echo_419

MehrotraPrince said:


> *ABSENCE OF LEVEL PLAYING FIELD*
> _______________________________
> 
> The most significant setback to production of MBT Arjun was the change in requirements put forth by the Army in February 2007. The tanks produced by HVF, Avadi were to be issued to the Army after inspection at the factory site in the Joint Receipt Inspection by the representatives of HVF, DRDO and Army. The issued tanks were put through two trials - the Field Trial and the Accelerated usage-cum-reliability trials (AUCRT), by the Army. Joint Receipt Inspection was conducted (March 2005) for first five MBT Arjun manufactured (2003-04) in the pilot phase, one year after production. The inspection of the second lot of nine pilot MBT Arjun, took place in February 2007, two years after production. By 2007, 53 MBT had already been produced by HVF, Avadi. It was during this inspection in February 2007 that Army reported water ingress in the fighting compartment of tank while crossing shallow parts of a river and raised two additional requirements in the design of the MBT Arjun viz. zero level ingress of water in the fighting compartment and lead time for fording (time from tank’s entry into water to exit from water) to be minimised to 30 minutes.
> 
> We noticed that the corresponding benchmark fixed by the Army for T-90 tank was more relaxed, allowing 2.5 litres of water ingress. The requirement of zero level water ingress for medium fording was not stipulated in the Army’s requirements (GSQR of 1985) or in subsequent stages of development which had seen many changes in design. In fact, the Joint Action Plan (of Army and DRDO), in August 1999, had cleared the medium fording capability of MBT Arjun. This issue was also not raised in the Joint Receipt Inspection of the first batch of pilot MBT Arjun. The new requirements necessitated the DRDO to modify the design of the second lot of nine pilot MBT Arjun. The same got modified and were issued to Army by September 2007. The first lot of five pilot tanks was brought back from Army, got modified and issued to Army till October 2007. Balance 39 tanks of the bulk production were dismantled, reworked and issued to the Army in 2008-10. The whole task of dismantling and reassembly of 53 MBTs entailed an additional cost of Rs 84 lakh. The Ministry stated (May 2014) that modifications were considered essential to improve overall performance from user’s perspective. The reply undermines the impact of the modifications in derailing the production and issue of MBT Arjun, which was a significant factor that led to an import of T-90 tanks that cost Rs 4,913 crore in November 2007 as discussed in Paragraph 8.3.4. The reply also does not address why the benchmarks on MBT Arjun regarding water ingress and fording, were more stringent than the corresponding requirements on T-90 tank.
> 
> Medium fording was one of the eight instances we noticed, where Army placed benchmark of parameters on MBT Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks. These are detailed in Annexure XIX. We could not assess the impact of these benchmarks on the performance of the two tanks from our scrutiny of the Report on comparative trials of MBT Arjun and T-90 tank (February/ March 2010- referred to in Paragraph 8.3.2.8 ). While we appreciate the Army’s quest for improving the quality of MBT Arjun, the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field and more importantly, the inability to freeze the designs led to several changes in design, consequent delays in acceptance of MBT Arjun by the Army and in the overall, the production and issue of MBT Arjun.
> 
> ___________________________
> 
> *IMPACT OF 'EVOLVING' GSQRs*
> ___________________________
> 
> 
> *Changes in design*
> 
> Mention was made in Report No. 3 of 2006 of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India about the frequent changes in design leading to delay in development of MBT Arjun. The development of MBT prototype was to be completed by April 1982 but after going through several modifications in design, the prototype was cleared by the Army in 1998. Given this concern on several changes in design, the Scientific Advisor to the Raksha Mantri had confirmed (2004) in a note to the Ministry that the design for MBT stood frozen. This was, however, not the case. We found that 316 amendments to design of various assemblies were carried out even after freezing of the design and up to August 2010. The changes were mostly justified by the Ministry in its reply (May 2014) as necessitated for product improvement and modifications based on user’s feedback on quality problems. The reply does not take cognizance of the fact that even after clearing the production after acceptance of the prototype (1998), the designs continued to be re-worked for 12 years thereafter and frozen only in 2010.
> 
> _________________________________
> 
> *ARJUN - T-90 COMPARATIVE TRIALS*
> _________________________________
> 
> 
> Comparative field trials of MBT Arjun with T-90 tanks took place in February/ March 2010. Till such time, the Army had been consistently reporting quality problems in MBT Arjun; this was also reported to the Standing Committee on Defence (2007-08). The comparative trials were on four parameters viz. fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues of the tank with weightage of 40, 35, 15 and 10 respectively. As per the trial report, MBT Arjun performed marginally better than the T-90 tank in accuracy and consistency of firepower. However, T-90 tank performed better in lethality and missile firing capability. The Army concluded (April 2010) that “Arjun had performed creditably and it could be employed both for offensive and defensive tasks with same efficacy of T-90 tank.” The Army also recommended upgrades to make the Arjun tank a superior weapon platform. We were informed (February 2014) that the Mark-II version of MBT Arjun was under trials by the Army and that it would include the upgrades recommended by the Army.
> 
> We found that the MBT Arjun and T-90 tank were not exactly comparable in missile firing ability; the higher score of T-90 tank was mainly due to missile firing ability which was not in the design of MBT Arjun. Barring missile firing ability, the scores of MBT Arjun and T-90 tank would be 25.77 and 24.50 respectively in firepower. In the overall comparative score, T-90 tank scored 75.01, marginally higher than MBT Arjun which scored 72.46, mainly because of higher score on missile firing ability of T-90 tank.
> 
> __________________
> 
> *T-90 PRODUCTION*
> __________________
> 
> 
> The Russian Firm, M/s Rosoboronexport (ROE) was expected to transfer the design details in the Transfer-of-Technology (ToT) documents by March 2003. The documents were in Russian; the Army/Ordnance Factories’ efforts to get translated documents from ROE, failed. The documents were received between September 2001 and January 2003 following which HVF, Avadi concluded four contracts between September 2003 and September 2006 for translation of the documents. The translation was completed by July 2007 after the expiry of scheduled delivery period of first batch of 50 indigenous tanks by 2006-07. In all, the translation of ToT documents took almost six years.
> 
> The Ministry stated (May 2014) that translation of critical documents for indigenous manufacturing was carried out with available resource of Russian translators at HVF and there was no delay in production due to pending translation. The reply is not acceptable because delay in translation of ToT documents had certainly impacted on the indigenous production of T-90 tanks as production could not commence without the availability of translated documents.
> 
> Non-receipt of design documents for critical assemblies
> 
> We found that ToT documents in respect of some critical assemblies were not transferred by the Russian manufacturer, ROE, even after lapse of 12 years as of July 2013. An important component was the gun system (including barrel) for which the design had not been received as of May 2014. In fact, the Ministry cited this issue as the main reason for slippage in indigenous production of T-90 tank.
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> *QUALITY PROBLEMS WITH THE T-90*
> ________________________________
> 
> During March 2010 to November 2013, HVF received 45 defect reports (DRs) from the Army relating to minor and major defects in the indigenous T-90 tanks. The defects mainly pertained to failure of gear box and defects in auto/electrical portion of the tanks. A Working Group was proposed (March 2012) to address these deficiencies which was not formed. The HVF, Avadi constituted (November 2004) a Failure Review Board (FRB) at factory level to investigate the reasons for defects at the users end. The FRB discussed (September 2013) the major failures and recommended remedial measures.
> 
> Accordingly, HVF implemented:
> 
> • a process audit to eliminate non-conformances in assembling process;
> • introduction of 100 per cent pre-fitment and component level inspection and additional quality assurance checks at local supplier’s premises;
> • extensive trials of samples supplied by the local firms after introducing improvements and before their induction into regular production; and
> • deputing of HVF’s teams to field locations to ensure technical and maintenance support to the users.
> 
> Ministry told us that the FRB was a quality tool which facilitated timely action on defects. The delay in discussion of the FRB (September 2013), even when
> the Army was raising quality concerns since March 2010, was not however, commented upon by the Ministry.
> 
> ___________________
> 
> *PRODUCTION RATE*
> ___________________
> 
> *Arjun:*
> 
> The Public Accounts Committee had urged (December 2003) the Ministry to utilize the infrastructural facilities optimally so that the desired volume of production of MBT Arjun would enable increase of the indigenous content to 55 per cent. The Ministry assured the Committee that a production level, initially of 300 MBT Arjun to be raised to 500 tank later, would reduce the import content to under 30 per cent.
> 
> However, barring the initial indent of 124 tanks, the Board did not receive any further indents for MBT Arjun. Production has come to standstill since 2009-10 and to that extent, capacity created at a cost of Rs 87 crore for annual production of 30 MBT Arjun awaits utilization against Ministry’s decision for fresh orders. Meanwhile, HVF, Avadi holds idle inventory of Rs 128 crore reflected as “Work-in-progress”, which remains unutilised in the absence of fresh orders. The cost per MBT Arjun was Rs 21 crore (2009-10), against which the import content was Rs 13 crore. This brings the level of indigenisation in MBT Arjun to 38 per cent only. The initial development project on MBT Arjun had envisaged that barring the engine, all components/assemblies would be indigenously produced. Problems in sourcing major assemblies other than engines have been discussed in Paragraph 8.3.2.6.
> 
> *T-90:*
> 
> The production of T-90 tank at HVF, Avadi was short of the indent of November 2004 for 300 tanks, by 75 tanks as of March 2013. Even as the production was underway against the first indent, the Army placed a second indent for 236 T-90 tanks in December 2013. Meanwhile, the Ministry sanctioned (September 2011) Rs 971 crore for capacity augmentation of T-90 tank production by March 2014. This was expected to raise the capacity of Ordnance Factories from 100 per cent to 140 per cent of T-90 tanks.
> 
> It is noteworthy that Rs 96 crore was sanctioned (February 2004) for creating production capacity for 100 T-90 tanks, whereas augmentation of capacity from 100 to 140 tanks is slated for Rs 971 crore, a ten times increase in estimation over a period of seven years. Reasons for the extraordinary increase were not provided by the Ministry, in its response of May 2014. As of March 2014, only an amount of Rs 17 crore had been spent on the augmentation project and in the revised schedule, the project is expected to be completed in December 2016. The Board appears to have put the augmentation plan on a slow track as of now.
> 
> Report no-35 of 2014



Some heads need to be rolled


----------



## GORKHALI

No wonder corruption is deep rooted in Indian army @sancho ,you still think its DRDO fault ?


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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> No wonder corruption is deep rooted in Indian army @sancho ,you still think its DRDO fault ?



What exactly?


----------



## DrSomnath999

*From Asian Military Review Dec-14-Jan-15*




[/B]

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## Mujraparty

CAG blames Army for delay in Arjun tanks’ induction

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has blamed the *Indian Army for delaying the induction of Arjun tanks developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and blamed the Ministry of Defence for playing along by allowing costly imports.*


A comparative trial between the Arjun and the imported Russian T-90 tanks was done in April 2010 by fixing different benchmarks –* very stringent for the Arjun and relaxed for the T-90*, said the CAG in its report tabled in Parliament last Friday. The Arjun still scored over the T-90 on some issues, the trials were conducted on four parameters — fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues.


The CAG has revealed what was restricted to the corridors of MoD and hidden behind secrecy of ‘national interest’. An order was placed for additional T-90 tanks in November 2007 even as Army kept on adding its requirements for the Arjun, said the CAG. The CAG also did not spare the Ministry of Defence, saying the “decision for import was taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security based on a note submitted by the ministry”.


*Incidentally, the issue of ‘sabotage’ in trials of the Arjun was first flagged in April 2008 by then Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh during the first term of UPA government. Since then, Rao switched parties, and is now again at the same post in the Narendra Modi-led regime.* “*The possibility of sabotage needs to be examined,” Singh had said in 2008.*


The CAG, in its latest report said there were eight instances in which Arjun in the comparative trial was judged against more stringent benchmarks parameters. “We noticed, eight instances where the Army placed benchmark of parameters on Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks… the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field”.

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## sancho

Replied here, to keep the trolls talking in the other thread. 



rockstarIN said:


> The CAG report published(as detailed in the first post) shows how IA deliberately delayed and do not want to induct Arjun in numbers. And not the performance is the reason(read the results), but the Russian Loby itself.



That depends how you look at it. The report shows that the Arjun scored lower in fire power and even just a little better that the T90 when you take the missile capability out, which then would be a preference for the Arjun, because it doesn't have that capability, which is not the fault of the T90 though. And if you compare that with older reports about Arjun outgunning the T90s, it suddenly looks pretty different. (@indianrabbit you told me about that before right?).

The question however is, why there were partially different set of requirements and what effect on the results they had?


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## Hulk

sancho said:


> Replied here, to keep the trolls talking in the other thread.
> 
> 
> 
> That depends how you look at it. The report shows that the Arjun scored lower in fire power and even just a little better that the T90 when you take the missile capability out, which then would be a preference for the Arjun, because it doesn't have that capability, which is not the fault of the T90 though. And if you compare that with older reports about Arjun outgunning the T90s, it suddenly looks pretty different. (@indianrabbit you told me about that before right?).
> 
> The question however is, why there were partially different set of requirements and what effect on the results they had?


Yes @sancho when I read about Arjun being better than T-90. I asked someone in IA who knows this in and out and his answer was that Arjun is better than T-72 and a good Tank but is not better than T-90. He also said that the there are fake news circulated and IA cannot respond to those news. He had no hesitation when he said so. I believe him and I cannot disclose but he was in very important position at that time and knew this in and out.

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## GORKHALI

indianrabbit said:


> Yes @sancho when I read about Arjun being better than T-90. I asked someone in IA who knows this in and out and his answer was that Arjun is better than T-72 and a good Tank but is not better than T-90. He also said that the there are fake news circulated and IA cannot respond to those news. He had no hesitation when he said so. I believe him and I cannot disclose but he was in very important position at that time and knew this in and out.


Well I asked someone in IAF and he said that Su 30 mki is junk and very low availability.He swear that many of IAF pilots like MK2 more than the Mki and they also heard Tejas is on similar lines.You believe this source ? 
@Topic MBT arjun is better than T90 is on official records and I don't give a shit about what IA sources think about and it proved that it Outran with heaps and bound and fairly comparable in outgunning too.Read the report it says it cleary got edge on mobility while firepower is more or less comparable and again missile firing capability of Arjun MK2. diminished that edge

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## Omega007

GORKHALI said:


> Well I asked someone in IAF and he said that Su 30 mki is junk and very low availability.He swear that many of IAF pilots like MK2 more than the Mki and they also heard Tejas is on similar lines.You believe this source ?
> @Topic MBT arjun is better than T90 is on official records and I don't give a shit about what IA sources think about and it proved that it Outran with heaps and bound and fairly comparable in outgunning too.Read the report it says it cleary got edge on mobility while firepower is more or less comparable and again missile firing capability of Arjun MK2. diminished that edge



Show the recent CAG report to that fucking rabbit.



indianrabbit said:


> Yes @sancho when I read about Arjun being better than T-90. I asked someone in IA who knows this in and out and his answer was that Arjun is better than T-72 and a good Tank but is not better than T-90. He also said that the there are fake news circulated and IA cannot respond to those news. He had no hesitation when he said so. I believe him and I cannot disclose but he was in very important position at that time and knew this in and out.



Yeah yeah,shove it up your arse you idiot.

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## MilSpec

Hi,

Please edit offensive language

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## Krate M

@sancho @indianrabbit If arjun tank is better than t72 then why are the production lines lying idle? Why still there is not a major order for arjun? Why we still have old version of t72 (non upgraded ) still in use while the arjun line has been stopped, not even talking about mk2 which is better than t90.


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## Sine Nomine

As specs say Arjun is better then T-90, then we go on and just say there may be something else we don't know and IA knows and that's why they would say T-90 is better but i think and you are also sure that T-72 is nothing Against Arjun it will be better to upgrade T-72 using Arjun tech what you guys say about it. @sancho  @eowyn


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## Black Widow

قناص said:


> As specs say Arjun is better then T-90, then we go on and just say there may be something else we don't know and IA knows and that's why they would say T-90 is better but i think and you are also sure that T-72 is nothing Against Arjun it will be better to upgrade T-72 using Arjun tech what you guys say about it. @sancho  @eowyn





T72 is old platform. Even updated they are old machine (most batches are build 10 year ago).. So its better to phase them out and replacing them with Arjuna MK I and II .

More over our dearest brother sancho is against domestic production.. He likes Import..



Krate M said:


> @sancho @indianrabbit If arjun tank is better than t72 then why are the production lines lying idle? Why still there is not a major order for arjun? Why we still have old version of t72 (non upgraded ) still in use while the arjun line has been stopped, not even talking about mk2 which is better than t90.





Arjuna is not only better than T72 rather it is better than T90. If you go by specs, It is world class Tank..

But our corrupt procurement department need Gandhi Jee.. Without Gandhiji nothing work..

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## Sine Nomine

Black Widow said:


> T72 is old platform. Even updated they are old machine (most batches are build 10 year ago).. So its better to phase them out and replacing them with Arjuna MK I and II .
> 
> More over our dearest brother sancho is against domestic production.. He likes Import..


This is old desi thinking found on both sides of border that imported is better even the same product made by desis is selling like hot cake in foreign countries

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## sancho

indianrabbit said:


> Yes @sancho when I read about Arjun being better than T-90. I asked someone in IA who knows this in and out and his answer was that Arjun is better than T-72 and a good Tank but is not better than T-90. He also said that the there are fake news circulated and IA cannot respond to those news. He had no hesitation when he said so. I believe him and I cannot disclose but he was in very important position at that time and knew this in and out.



Yeah, kept that in mind. Any chance that you can get his (inofficial) point of view about the MK2 upgrade?



Krate M said:


> @sancho @indianrabbit If arjun tank is better than t72 then why are the production lines lying idle? Why still there is not a major order for arjun? Why we still have old version of t72 (non upgraded ) still in use while the arjun line has been stopped, not even talking about mk2 which is better than t90.



Only because Arjun is better than the T72s, doesn't mean that the life of the T72s is over now. They even get upgrades and will remain in use for quiet some time. And there are orders for Arjun, just not in the high numbers we would like to see, but that's a matter of the customer and what requirements he has, but with even DRDO now hoping on FMBT, why should IA go for large orders of Arjun MK2 and not insist on the newer development. I only hope that the government will put IA on top of the new development and make them responsible too, only then they will commit themselfs for to the project and only then DRDO will develop something good from the start and not only after several upgrades, that are poorly attached to the initial design.



قناص said:


> As specs say Arjun is better then T-90, then we go on and just say there may be something else we don't know and IA knows and that's why they would say T-90 is better but i think and you are also sure that T-72 is nothing Against Arjun it will be better to upgrade T-72 using Arjun tech what you guys say about it.



I was always liked the Tank Ex idea and would love to see how the T72 chassis would look with the Arjun MK2 turret, but IA rejected that, the question is why? Costs can play a role, since it can be a waste to pay so much for a new turret, when the base of the tank doesn't have too much life left, but I'm just guessing here, don't know what the reasons of IA were.


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## Hulk

sancho said:


> Yeah, kept that in mind. Any chance that you can get his (inofficial) point of view about the MK2 upgrade?
> 
> 
> 
> Only because Arjun is better than the T72s, doesn't mean that the life of the T72s is over now. They even get upgrades and will remain in use for quiet some time. And there are orders for Arjun, just not in the high numbers we would like to see, but that's a matter of the customer and what requirements he has, but with even DRDO now hoping on FMBT, why should IA go for large orders of Arjun MK2 and not insist on the newer development. I only hope that the government will put IA on top of the new development and make them responsible too, only then they will commit themselfs for to the project and only then DRDO will develop something good from the start and not only after several upgrades, that are poorly attached to the initial design.
> 
> 
> 
> I was always liked the Tank Ex idea and would love to see how the T72 chassis would look with the Arjun MK2 turret, but IA rejected that, the question is why? Costs can play a role, since it can be a waste to pay so much for a new turret, when the base of the tank doesn't have too much life left, but I'm just guessing here, don't know what the reasons of IA were.


@sancho I do not have a chance to get an update, since he only talks in person and I am not going to travel to India before 2016. Additionally, he is very reserved about disclosing anything, hard to get anything out. He gave me some hint about Dhanush at that time, but I only understood it when I saw the news. He told me this "We have a clear roadmap for Arty guns and I am sure in 2 years we will sort out everything". He told me that they were happy with Dhanush but also said Dhanush is actually slightly inferior to Bofors.

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## MilSpec

Not trying to malign any professional sources, but In my experience personal prejudices comes up with Military operators as well. I have come across, 21 drivers who claimed they can hunt down anything in the sky, and m29 drivers claiming the machine was the "sliced bread" for the sky. Being engineers we learn to look at actual capabilities from testing not from testimonials, although they help. 
I have seen crpf complain about Insas without knowing(or forgotten) how to shoulder the thing. 

So dikhavo pe mat jao, apni akal lagao.... 

@sancho @indianrabbit

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## Badbadman

Omega007 said:


> Show the recent CAG report to that fucking rabbit.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah yeah,shove it up your arse you idiot.


Someone didn't had a nice day.


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## Krate M

@sancho because arjun is ready today and can be made now. Also on one hand you don't trust DRDO timeline targets and on the other you are saying that fmbt will come in soon enough to take care of obsolescence of t72? Many t72 cannot be upgraded due to age and wear. Also arjun line is idle and can be used to bring up the force level.

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## sancho

Krate M said:


> Also on one hand you don't trust DRDO timeline targets and on the other you are saying that fmbt will come in soon enough to take care of obsolescence of t72?



No, I said that IA might prefer the FMBT in larger numbers, rather than going for Arjun that doesn't work for them and their tactics. They already stated that they consider it mainly for the desert regions, while the T72s, T90s and obviously FMBT fit their requirements for other regions too.


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> No, I said that IA might prefer the FMBT in larger numbers, rather than going for Arjun that doesn't work for them and their tactics. They already stated that they consider it mainly for the desert regions, while the T72s, T90s and obviously FMBT fit their requirements for other regions too.


And why doesn't Arjun Mk2 (58T) work for IA, just curious, Weight I highly doubt is an issue, as heavyweights like Leopard 2 (62.3 T), Challenger 2 (62 T) and M1A2 Abrams (62T) works for everyone else. 

may be an OT question, how are those recovery vehicles working out for IA?


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## Krate M

@sancho it is funny how arjun designed according to GSQR given by army and modified numerous times based on their demand now does not work for them.
Is this your thinking or army source for this?
Arjun is useful in other terrain too. And logistics can be organized.

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## Echo_419

Krate M said:


> @sancho it is funny how arjun designed according to GSQR given by army and modified numerous times based on their demand now does not work for them.
> Is this your thinking or army source for this?
> Arjun is useful in other terrain too. And logistics can be organized.



Heads must be rolled enough of this drama by Army


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> And why doesn't Arjun Mk2 (58T) work for IA, just curious, Weight I highly doubt is an issue, as heavyweights like Leopard 2 (62.3 T), Challenger 2 (62 T) and M1A2 Abrams (62T) works for everyone else.



Actually weight is the issue as several reports showed, since the MK2 comes around 67t now in combatweight, even the MK1 is above 60t contrary to earlier aims of the development and it doesn't make sense to point to other tanks used by other forces around the world, since all that counts is the Indian threat enviroment and the operational requirements of IA. After the MK2 came out and the weight increase officially confirmed, we even have seen reports that the Arjun will have problems in certain areas of the western borders and therefor provides IA with operational problems. One reason why they might be more interested in FMBT, rather than Arjun MK2 in larger numbers.



Krate M said:


> @sancho it is funny how arjun designed according to GSQR given by army and modified numerous times based on their demand now does not work for them.



That's the same problem that we see with LCA or AMCA, since these projects are "designed and developed" by DRDO, with the only imput of the forces being basic set of requirements. IA wasn't included in the design of Arjun and surely didn't demanded to make it wider and longer than the Leopard 2 tank, nor did IAF demanded LCA to be the smallest fighter in it's class, but both decisions turned out to be problems for the development. Arjun got too heavy and big, LCA got draggy and with too little interlan space for upgrades. So it's one thing that the forces providing basic requirements, but it's another thing what DRDO as the developer builds around these requirements, let alone if they are able to meet the requirements of the forces.
AMCA faces the same problem, IAF don't want it but still gave basic requirements for it and DRDO is developing a fighter now according to their own ideas with the aim to meet IAFs basic requirements (ignoring the fact that AMCA is operationally not needed). Unless we start to take the forces directly into the developments of these projects, by leading them and deciding about design and capability on their own, there will always be a difference between what DRDO wants to provide and what the forces actually needs.

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## hussain0216

Without trolling

I never understood why india developed the arjun, a type of tank they would ever procure in limited numbers even if it was successful

rather than try to develop a tank in the medium-heavy category thst could become the mainstay of the Indian tank force

it makes no sense and the Indian military seems to agree


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## nik22

hussain0216 said:


> Without trolling
> 
> I never understood why india developed the arjun, a type of tank they would ever procure in limited numbers even if it was successful
> 
> rather than try to develop a tank in the medium-heavy category thst could become the mainstay of the Indian tank force
> 
> it makes no sense and the Indian military seems to agree


Development was as per requirement of Army. May be Army did not want Arjun to succeed.


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## hussain0216

nik22 said:


> Development was as per requirement of Army. May be Army did not want Arjun to succeed.



That makes no sense, your basically saying the indian army wanted to waste multi millions of dollars and scupper indian desires to be self sufficient and independent


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## nik22

hussain0216 said:


> That makes no sense, your basically saying the indian army wanted to waste multi millions of dollars and scupper indian desires to be self sufficient and independent


Requirement (GSQR) of Arjun was provided by Army. Unlike T72, Army wanted Arjun to be a heavy category tank with thick armor.

I think DRDO overshoot weight requirement but that can always happen. I am sure army or DRDO did not do any scientific analysis to analyze how much weight tank would have based on requirement. All Army must have done is to provide requirements keeping some benchmark tanks in mind.

Now you have a hulk of a tank which Army find unsuitable mainly due to weight. Would you blame developer(DRDO) for that ? I would not. My idea is Army always wanted it to be a secondary tank, not main. 

By above, I am no way saying DRDO did tremendous job. But I would not really blame them. It was first tank. Product maturity need time.


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## sancho

nik22 said:


> *I think DRDO overshoot weight requirement* but that can always happen. I am sure army or DRDO did not do any scientific analysis to analyze how much weight tank would have based on requirement. *All Army must have done is to provide requirements keeping some benchmark tanks in mind.*



So you have to blame DRDO for the development problems and delays, although army gave basic requirements in the GSQR!
One simply can't relief DRDO, just because the Army has a bad reputation about indigenous stuff, the fact is the tank is far delayed and not according to the requirements. The Army can only be blamed for requirement changes over the time, if they didn't happened because of the delays, or if they had different requirements in the trials of course and now it simply seems that FMBT is in the focus, but lets see and hope that the MK2 trials will prove to be more convincing even with the weight issue.


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## Nodata

Army must order 2000 Arjun and stop this imported drama like imported air force does.

No more T-90 bullshit no proper gun barrel.

Indigenous Indigenous Indigenous mantra of India.


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## SOHEIL

​
*MK1





.
.
.

MK2




*​

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## SOHEIL



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## SOHEIL

​

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## kaku1

sancho said:


> Actually weight is the issue as several reports showed, since the MK2 comes around 67t now in combatweight, even the MK1 is above 60t contrary to earlier aims of the development and it doesn't make sense to point to other tanks used by other forces around the world, since all that counts is the Indian threat enviroment and the operational requirements of IA. After the MK2 came out and the weight increase officially confirmed, we even have seen reports that the Arjun will have problems in certain areas of the western borders and therefor provides IA with operational problems. One reason why they might be more interested in FMBT, rather than Arjun MK2 in larger numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the same problem that we see with LCA or AMCA, since these projects are "designed and developed" by DRDO, with the only imput of the forces being basic set of requirements. IA wasn't included in the design of Arjun and surely didn't demanded to make it wider and longer than the Leopard 2 tank, nor did IAF demanded LCA to be the smallest fighter in it's class, but both decisions turned out to be problems for the development. Arjun got too heavy and big, LCA got draggy and with too little interlan space for upgrades. So it's one thing that the forces providing basic requirements, but it's another thing what DRDO as the developer builds around these requirements, let alone if they are able to meet the requirements of the forces.
> AMCA faces the same problem, IAF don't want it but still gave basic requirements for it and DRDO is developing a fighter now according to their own ideas with the aim to meet IAFs basic requirements (ignoring the fact that AMCA is operationally not needed). Unless we start to take the forces directly into the developments of these projects, by leading them and deciding about design and capability on their own, there will always be a difference between what DRDO wants to provide and what the forces actually needs.


One thing, Did you implementing that T-90 is superior to Arjun, and the overweight issues. 

So, does it means India or Israeli or German tech.( as german engine was used) is far behind Russian?


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## SOHEIL

*MK3 ?




*​

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## sancho

kaku1 said:


> One thing, Did you implementing that T-90 is superior to Arjun, and the overweight issues.



I couldn't care less about which of them is superior, just pointed out why the Army says they can't use it as much as they planned and why they prefer the FMBT in larger numbers, rather than the Arjun MK2 and the overweight surely is one of the reasons. 



kaku1 said:


> So, does it means India or Israeli or German tech.( as german engine was used) is far behind Russian?



You can't compare the whole tank and generalise it, the Israeli electro optics or APS belongs to the best in the world, but they are only part of the tank and doesn't make the performance of the whole tank right? And if you look at the Arjun MK2 turret and the latest Leopard 2 upgrades, you will see how far behind we are compared to Germany.


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## SOHEIL

​

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## kaku1

sancho said:


> I couldn't care less about which of them is superior, just pointed out why the Army says they can't use it as much as they planned and why they prefer the FMBT in larger numbers, rather than the Arjun MK2 and the overweight surely is one of the reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't compare the whole tank and generalise it, the Israeli electro optics or APS belongs to the best in the world, but they are only part of the tank and doesn't make the performance of the whole tank right? And if you look at the Arjun MK2 turret and the latest Leopard 2 upgrades, you will see how far behind we are compared to Germany.



Possibly. But did the weight issue is so much a problem for logistic? How much time it took for ICF to manufacture new coaches that can handle Arjun. Even Indian Railway is of broad gauge, unlike many parts of world.

On other note, did you accept the capability of Arjun is far superior than T-90 in cold start? Because the current doctrine is to invade just 40-50 Km inside and hold that territory unlike Sunderji doctrine, where it was to reach Islamabad? So, urban warfare and Bridges is not that much problem.

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## sancho

kaku1 said:


> Possibly. But did the weight issue is so much a problem for logistic?



=>



> *Pressure on the Ground - Arjun Mk-2 offers enhanced firepower, but it’s too heavy to go where the Army wants it*
> 
> ...We learnt that while the Arjun Mk-2 is substantially improved and more capable than the Arjun Mk-1; it is too heavy, limiting areas where it can be deployed by the Army. And that renders it unsuitable for the army’s operational requirements for a Main Battle Tank (MBT).* According to P Sivakumar, Director CVRDE, “the weight of the Arjun prevents it from being deployed in all the areas required by the Army”.
> *
> Keeping this in mind, the Arjun Mk-2’s improved performance seems to have put the Army in a spot. What does one do with a tank that is fast, can shoot accurately on the move and is relatively well protected but is too heavy to be deployed in the deserts near the Pakistan border as a replacement for the T-72 or T-90? Paradoxically, while the tank itself has demonstrated high speed and mobility, its weight precludes it from being able to operate anywhere the army wants it to. The Arjun Mk-2 will weigh around 67 tonnes and this fatally limits the tank’s operational effectiveness for the Indian Army.
> 
> The tank is too heavy to be deployed across the border with Pakistan. It is unable to effectively traverse terrain filled with natural and/or artificial obstacles. Or areas criss-crossed with rivers and canals. That rules out most places in Rajasthan, Punjab and the mountainous terrain of the J&K sector.



Arjun Mk-2 offers enhanced firepower, but it’s too heavy to go where the Army wants it


As I said earlier, I don't care about which tank is better, as long as both can protect India, but my concern with Arjun is the development delays, the time and money Indian Taxpayer spent and what we got in return for it. And as you can see in the above, it's not only IA that says it's too heavy and faces operational limitations, so who is to blame?
Maybe the solution would be a new Tank EX, that takes the base of the T90 and the turret of the Arjun MK2, using the best of both. At least that should be a faster solution than developing FMBT from scratch and waiting even more years.


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## kaku1

sancho said:


> =>
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun Mk-2 offers enhanced firepower, but it’s too heavy to go where the Army wants it
> 
> 
> As I said earlier, I don't care about which tank is better, as long as both can protect India, but my concern with Arjun is the development delays, the time and money Indian Taxpayer spent and what we got in return for it. And as you can see in the above, it's not only IA that says it's too heavy and faces operational limitations, so who is to blame?
> Maybe the solution would be a new Tank EX, that takes the base of the T90 and the turret of the Arjun MK2, using the best of both. At least that should be a faster solution than developing FMBT from scratch and waiting even more years.



One thing, day back in 2006 the DRDO come up with the idea of Tank EX, which is total indian solution, as T-72 chassis with Arjun turret, including BEL and israeli sensors. Bur why they rejected? So, I think now the ball is in Army's court, that they pursue DRDO for development of a new advanced Tank Ex on T-90 chassis. And allow the DRDO for Arjun Mk.3 as evolution model, instead of going to FMBT from scratch. Like, re-engineer the Arjun for 50t, ask for gas turbine with partnership with GE or Honeywell. And firm the order of 500 Arjun Mk2, so that the manufacturing line in Avadhi become mature for future manufacturing, and CRVDE able to make changes for Mk.3. Like Leopard and Markheva. One thing, Leopard didnt become advanced in one day, with 4 decades of R&D, with several orders.

This is upto IA to create military industrial complex inside india, not of DRDO, they cant do that without any orders from Army. No one can reach western type standards in one day, thats require many decades of R&D, you have to accept that. BTW, even our threats are not against western countries, that we require latest leopard tank. The Arjun is a fine tank according to the threats.

Producing FMBT from scratch is impossible, it have to be evolutionary.

BTW, The IA dont want heavy tank, they dont want medium tank, what they actually want, total foreign solutions?


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## sancho

kaku1 said:


> Bur why they rejected?


Not sure why they rejected it, could had been based on the costs, since half of the tank would be completelly new, while the T72 base was just an old used one. Upgrading the T72s with some minor new techs and capabilities might had been the more cost-effective choice.



kaku1 said:


> So, I think now the ball is in Army's court, that they pursue DRDO for development of a new advanced Tank Ex on T-90 chassis.



No, it would be in DRDO's court, since it's in DRDO's interest to get at least more orders for 50% of the Arjun MK2, rather than non until FMBT might be ready. The problem is, DRDO itself is driven by the idea that they are world class and they rather want to prove that by developing something completelly new, than using available stuff and improving it. 



kaku1 said:


> And allow the DRDO for Arjun Mk.3 as evolution model, instead of going to FMBT from scratch. Like, re-engineer the Arjun for 50t



That's not possible, since you have to design the tank completelly new, with a smaller form factor to get to such levels. Arjuns potential is limited and with every upgrade it got only heavier and heavier, that's why a T90 Tank EX MK2 would be the only solution for the short term, other than buying upgraded Russian T90MS. 



kaku1 said:


> No one can reach western type standards in one day, thats require many decades of R&D, you have to accept that.



Who is expecting them to provide western standards? I would be happy with a Tank Ex based on T90 and Arjun MK2, since that's simpler and more realistic at this point, than DRDO developing a capable FMBT and since it might suit IA's requirements more than Arjun MK2. So my expectations on DRDO are pretty low, compared to what THEIR promises are, that however is the benchmark we have to rate DRDO on or?

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## TWINBLADE

*Cannon Launch Missile Development Programme*
The main objective of the project is to design, develop, test, and demonstrate a semi-active Laser
homing cannon launched missile that can be launched from 120mm gun and a tripod. All sub-systems 
of missile have been developed. Instrumented development flight tests were conducted from tripod
launcher.Dynamic performance of propulsion system was satisfactory. Ballistic range > 6 km was
achieved. *Mid-course guidance capability has been successfully tested. Main High explosive anti-tank
(HEAT) warhead tested against rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) and a consistent penetration of
>750mm were achieved*. A gimbaled laser seeker with a seeking range of ~2km has been developed
and flight tested
drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/DRDO-a-glimpse-ebook.pdf

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer



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## Rockstar

The tank is a top quality product made by drdo and I think it is also very advanced. But the government simply wants to encourage imports for kickbacks. The new defense minister should order more arjun tanks for the western sector.


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## me_itsme

Sorry for the OT question. But does anyone know whatever happened to the T-90MS deal for our eastern front? The latest news i saw on that was MOD has ordered some 300 T-90MS. Can any member please clarify?


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## Water Car Engineer

me_itsme said:


> Sorry for the OT question. But does anyone know whatever happened to the T-90MS deal for our eastern front? The latest news i saw on that was MOD has ordered some 300 T-90MS. Can any member please clarify?



Never heard of such a deal.

In the larger perspective though, the T-90 replacement, like the BMP2 replacement are under the make category.


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## me_itsme

Water Car Engineer said:


> Never heard of such a deal.
> 
> In the larger perspective though, the T-90 replacement, like the BMP2 replacement are under the make category.




So are there any possibility the T90s will be converted to MS ?


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## Etilla

kaku1 said:


> One thing, day back in 2006 the DRDO come up with the idea of Tank EX, which is total indian solution, as T-72 chassis with Arjun turret, including BEL and israeli sensors. Bur why they rejected? So, I think now the ball is in Army's court, that they pursue DRDO for development of a new advanced Tank Ex on T-90 chassis. And allow the DRDO for Arjun Mk.3 as evolution model, instead of going to FMBT from scratch. Like, re-engineer the Arjun for 50t, ask for gas turbine with partnership with GE or Honeywell. And firm the order of 500 Arjun Mk2, so that the manufacturing line in Avadhi become mature for future manufacturing, and CRVDE able to make changes for Mk.3. Like Leopard and Markheva. One thing, Leopard didnt become advanced in one day, with 4 decades of R&D, with several orders.
> 
> This is upto IA to create military industrial complex inside india, not of DRDO, they cant do that without any orders from Army. No one can reach western type standards in one day, thats require many decades of R&D, you have to accept that. BTW, even our threats are not against western countries, that we require latest leopard tank. The Arjun is a fine tank according to the threats.
> 
> Producing FMBT from scratch is impossible, it have to be evolutionary.
> 
> BTW, The IA dont want heavy tank, they dont want medium tank, what they actually want, total foreign solutions?



Gas Turbine engine in Arjun will make it a complete dud.

Its already too heavy for any meaningfull use.


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## CONNAN

The T90 Vs Arjun tabled below

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## Omega007

sancho said:


> Not sure why they rejected it, could had been based on the costs, since half of the tank would be completelly new, while the T72 base was just an old used one. Upgrading the T72s with some minor new techs and capabilities might had been the more cost-effective choice.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it would be in DRDO's court, since it's in DRDO's interest to get at least more orders for 50% of the Arjun MK2, rather than non until FMBT might be ready. The problem is, DRDO itself is driven by the idea that they are world class and they rather want to prove that by developing something completelly new, than using available stuff and improving it.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not possible, since you have to design the tank completelly new, with a smaller form factor to get to such levels. Arjuns potential is limited and with every upgrade it got only heavier and heavier, that's why a T90 Tank EX MK2 would be the only solution for the short term, other than buying upgraded Russian T90MS.
> 
> 
> 
> Who is expecting them to provide western standards?* I would be happy* with a Tank Ex based on T90 and Arjun MK2, since that's simpler and more realistic at this point, than DRDO developing a capable FMBT and since it might suit IA's requirements more than Arjun MK2. So my expectations on DRDO are pretty low, compared to what THEIR promises are, that however is the benchmark we have to rate DRDO on or?



Wow!!I have never seen such massive amount of bollocks stuffed into a single post ever before!!This is a new low even by your standards!!And *YOU WOULD BE HAPPY!!!!*Since when your will became so relevant to the Indian defence forces,huh kiddo??My advice to you - stop flattering yourself so much!!If you think you could do better than the ones in DRDO,then comeback from your comfortable life of Germany and start doing it yourself the hard way, (assuming you haven't faked about your whereabouts)because talk is cheap.Either you put your money where your mouth is or it would be better to keep your pie hole shut.Because you are talking bullshit about things which you clearly do not know too well about,which makes you look like a big fool.You think it makes you look very smart,but in reality,you are just proving how much of an idiot you really are kiddo.

You do not have wings or flippers,then why bother flapping??Keep shut and leave it upon the ones who know their shit.You are into planes,stick to your silly planes.Do not venture out into uncharted waters.

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## Water Car Engineer

*Arjun vs T90S trials. T90 was given relaxed parameters for all activities, pretty funny stuff.

*
Im guessing these were the trials back when Arjun beat the T90.. Again, pretty funny stuff.

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## Omega007

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Arjun vs T90S trials. T90 was given relaxed parameters for all activities, pretty funny stuff.
> 
> *
> Im guessing these were the trials back when Arjun beat the T90.. Again, pretty funny stuff.



Funny indeed,and even finnier is how some so called think tank analysts have got their heads into their not so good places.

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## me_itsme

What about the RCWS and APS, is anything been selected? Also is the position of the RCWS is gonna be changed to the rear?


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## Dazzler

Arjun never beat the t-90. Already discussed what happened in the trials, DRDO needed a face saving and it got one.

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Arjun never beat the t-90. Already discussed what happened in the trials, DRDO needed a face saving and it got one.



Can you tell me more?

Because sources have said it actually out performed the T90.

Broadsword: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

Now we have proof that it went up against T90s with relaxed parameters.

None of these sources have anything to do with DRDO.

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> Arjun never beat the t-90. Already discussed what happened in the trials, DRDO needed a face saving and it got one.


Problem is you don't know anything about Indian equipments and pronouncement process and yet you comment like naive.My suggestion is go through the pages and see what CAG found.

PS: CAG (*Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India*) an Independent agency and comes directly under president.

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Can you tell me more?
> 
> Because sources have said it actually out performed the T90.
> 
> Broadsword: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90
> 
> Now we have proof that it went up against T90s with relaxed parameters.
> 
> 
> 
> None of these sources have anything to do with DRDO.




Do some or search atleast. Arjun never outgunned or outrunned t-90. THe problem with you kids is that you are blindfolded with patriotism. Ask Indian army to stop ordering more t-90s and buying way obsolete faulty ammo at 3 times the original price.

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## Echo_419

Dazzler said:


> Do some or search atleast. Arjun never outgunned or outrunned t-90. THe problem with you kids is that you are blindfolded with patriotism. Ask Indian army to stop ordering more t-90s and buying way obsolete faulty ammo at 3 times the original price.



The official CAG Report states that Arjun outgunned T-90 
You tell me who to beilve a random person on a Pakistani Forum or the Official Auditor of Republic of India
& do answer my question


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Do some or search atleast. Arjun never outgunned or outrunned t-90. THe problem with you kids is that you are blindfolded with patriotism. Ask Indian army to stop ordering more t-90s and buying way obsolete faulty ammo at 3 times the original price.




How about you just post here, instead of accusing others of blind nationalism. Counter the sources, then we have no problem believing you.

An insider got inside confirmation from army brass, that were a part of the trials, that it preformed on par or better than the T90.

Later sources assert that those trials were in favor of the T90 from the beginning, No, this wasnt discussed, this is new information.

None of these sources are from DRDO either.

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## Dazzler

You don't need source to prove the evident, just check increasing t-90 orders and decreasing interest in arjun. Again, rationality is something that is beyond you guys as your arguments suggest.



Water Car Engineer said:


> How about you just post here, instead of accusing others of blind nationalism. Counter the sources, then we have no problem believing you.
> 
> An insider got inside confirmation from army brass, that were a part of the trials, that it preformed on par or better than the T90.
> 
> Later sources assert that those trials were in favor of the T90 from the beginning, No, this wasnt discussed, this is new information.
> 
> None of these sources are from DRDO either.


Check previous pages for sources if you are interested "knowing" the reality

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## Capt.Popeye

Dazzler said:


> Arjun never beat the t-90. Already discussed what happened in the trials, DRDO needed a face saving and it got one.



Can you even sing some other tune?


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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Why Dnt you guys check out his posts instead of going "loco".. chest thumping won't change reality ..,



No one is going loco.

These are authentic sources. One point from army brass that were in the trials themselves saying so. Again, this is independent from DRDO.

Recent sources revealed Arjun was handicapped by the army in the trials. Again, this is independent of DRDO, even the army.

None of these are "DRDO save facing".

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> No one is going loco.
> 
> These are authentic sources from army brass themselves saying so. Again, this is independent from DRDO.
> 
> Recent sources revealed Arjun was handicapped in the trials. Again, this is independent of DRDO, even the army.
> 
> None of these are "DRDO save facing".



I meant the tech stuff that he posted in the previous pages ?

Also he does raise a valid question ..
if arjun out performs t-90 ... Why keep ordering more t-90s and small orders for Arjun's.

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I meant the tech stuff that he posted in the previous pages ?
> 
> Also he does raise a valid question ..
> if arjun out performs t-90 ... Why keep ordering more t-90s and small orders for Arjun's.




Because the Arjun doesnt make sense in army that already supports 1000+++ T90/72. By the time the mark 1 was finished, T90s were already in numbers and license to produce up to 1500+ was there. I get that.

But the side that said the army never supported the Arjun from the beginning is making sense too.

From changing design parameters over and over again, to this independent evidence of the army basically crippling the Arjun in trials, again why would they even do that?


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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> You don't need source to prove the evident,* just check increasing t-90 orders and decreasing interest in arjun.* Again, rationality is something that is beyond you guys as your arguments suggest.
> 
> 
> Check previous pages for sources if you are interested "knowing" the reality


This is classic case of BS again .
Now for better understanding IA orders 248 Arjun tanks and will procure more when things started to get clear and In the mean time they will end up ordering 2 more regiments of Arjun Mk2 and final Nos will be around 498 or something while IA continue to procure large nos of Arjun based artillery ,BLT-70 ,Arjun based tank recovering vehicles etc etc.Coming to T 90S well they will make up the numbers as MOD already released the money for so it will replace early regiments of junk T 72,while Arjun Mk1-2 will replace T 55 and even some regiments of T-72. 

On the same context - Till now AL Khalid the most "successful" tank made by Chinese and assembled by Pakistan HIT is *approx 500 since 2001 and eventually end up procuring 100 more* while they are trying to come up with Al Khalid 2 since 4-5 years.Can we conclude AL khalid as a failure in terms of units produced.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Why Dnt you guys check out his posts instead of going "loco".. chest thumping won't change reality ..,


You justify your *16 negatives* ratings too ?


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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Because the Arjun doesnt make sense in army that already supports 1000+++ T90/72. By the time the mark 1 was finished, T90s were already in numbers and license to produce up to 1500+ was there. I get that.
> 
> But the side that said the army never supported the Arjun from the beginning is making sense too.
> 
> From changing design parameters over and over again, to this independent evidence of the army basically crippling the Arjun in trials, again why would they even do that?



This is the test case for you fanboys who know zilch about requirement process. It also shows how clueless you are on weapon induction process. You don't buy an "inferior" weapon system if your industry is producing a "superior" one unless the user likes to discourage the local industry for covert reasons.

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> This is the test case for you fanboys who know zilch about requirement process. It also shows how clueless you are on weapon induction process. You don't buy an "inferior" weapon system if your industry is producing a "superior" one unless the user likes to discourage the local industry for covert reasons.




There's nothing wrong with what I said.

The infrastructure and logistics in places was for 1000+ T72s, and by the time mark 1 was ready, there were 150-300 T90s with a license to produce 1500+ more. It doesnt make sense to produce a 60 ton, 120mm rifled tank that doesnt have similar commonality to the T series in huge numbers, when already billions were pushed out for the T90 procurement.

Now, the source that came out of it out preforming the T90 are inside sources from army brass that witnessed the trials.

And the source of the army deliberately handicapping the Arjun are also true.

None of these are DRDO "saving face". You didnt even read those sources when you read that.

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## GORKHALI

Water Car Engineer said:


> There's nothing wrong with what I said.
> 
> The infrastructure and logistics in places was for 1000+ T72s, and by the time mark 1 was ready, there were 150-300 T90s with a license to produce 1500+ more. It doesnt make sense to produce a 60 ton, 120mm rifled tank that doesnt have similar commonality to the T series in huge numbers, when already billions were pushed out for the T90 procurement.
> 
> Now, the source that came out of it out preforming the T90 are inside sources from army brass that witnessed the trials.
> 
> And the source of the army deliberately handicapping the Arjun are also true.
> 
> None of these are DRDO "saving face". You didnt even read those sources when you read that.


You are wasting your time here.The same rant will repeat again like a broken record with no clue and source.I would be so happy if the platform we are discussing is neutral.
@Dazzler how about a discussion in militaryphoto.net ?

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> You don't need source to prove the evident, just check increasing t-90 orders and decreasing interest in arjun. Again, rationality is something that is beyond you guys as your arguments suggest.
> 
> 
> Check previous pages for sources if you are interested "knowing" the reality


Stop wasting time on Indians they indirectly are blaming their own Indian Army of treason, because their Army is more interested in going for inferior T-90 than going for much superior and mighty and deadly Arjun. @DESERT FIGHTER

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## Echo_419

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Why Dnt you guys check out his posts instead of going "loco".. chest thumping won't change reality ..,



I asked the 'Think Tank' a simple question,how does he reaches at the conclusion that Arjun<T-90 when the CAG report (the official auditor of India) says Arjun outperform T-90 & he is yet to reply me with some Logical response that does not include 'you kids don't know nothing'.For that i got a negative rating



Dazzler said:


> This is the test case for you fanboys who know zilch about requirement process. It also shows how clueless you are on weapon induction process. You don't buy an "inferior" weapon system if your industry is producing a "superior" one unless the user likes to discourage the local industry for covert reasons.



I am asking you a simple question
How do you reach at the conclusion that T-90>Arjun when the official auditor says it is not

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## DESERT FIGHTER

GORKHALI said:


> This is classic case of BS again .
> Now for better understanding IA orders 248 Arjun tanks and will procure more when things started to get clear and In the mean time they will end up ordering 2 more regiments of Arjun Mk2 and final Nos will be around 498 or something while IA continue to procure large nos of Arjun based artillery ,BLT-70 ,Arjun based tank recovering vehicles etc etc.Coming to T 90S well they will make up the numbers as MOD already released the money for so it will replace early regiments of junk T 72,while Arjun Mk1-2 will replace T 55 and even some regiments of T-72.
> 
> On the same context - Till now AL Khalid the most "successful" tank made by Chinese and assembled by Pakistan HIT is *approx 500 since 2001 and eventually end up procuring 100 more* while they are trying to come up with Al Khalid 2 since 4-5 years.Can we conclude AL khalid as a failure in terms of units produced



i don't really get it... AK is a Pakistani assembled tank that is made by China ? n "is approximately 500 since 2001 and eventually ended up procuring 100"??


> You justify your *16 negatives* ratings too ?


yeah ... None of these matter if they were given by some indian TT troll ,. N who gives a shit?

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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> *This is the test case for you fanboys who know zilch about requirement process*. It also shows how clueless you are on weapon induction process. You don't buy an "inferior" weapon system if your industry is producing a "superior" one unless the user likes to discourage the local industry for covert reasons.



Do take a look at the CAG report you dumbo!!And seriously man,who made you a Think Tank Consultant,what ever that is supposed to mean??You don't even realize that the treaty for license manufacture of 1000 T 90S was already placed before the commencement of the comparative trials!!In fact by the time the trial had begun,the HVF,Avadi was manufacturing 100 T 90s per year!!So how could the Indian government have cancelled the orders which were already placed!!But then of course,why would you pay any attention to such boring and mundane details??Instead you will just cherry pick the info that suits your cause and then spread such filth everywhere without any shame!!Quite a* THINK TANK CONSULTANT* I have to say!!



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> i don't really get it... AK is a Pakistani assembled tank that is made by China ? n "is approximately 500 since 2001 and* eventually ended up procuring 100*"??



Read his post once again,more carefully this time.That guy said 100* more*,more being the keyword here,he meant additional 100 systems,over and above the 500 numbers.Carry on.

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## Echo_419

Omega007 said:


> Do take a look at the CAG report you dumbo!!And seriously man,who made you a Think Tank Consultant,what ever that is supposed to mean??You don't even realize that the treaty for license manufacture of 1000 T 90S was already placed before the commencement of the comparative trials!!In fact by the time the trial had begun,the HVF,Avadi was manufacturing 100 T 90s per year!!So how could the Indian government have cancelled the orders which were already placed!!But then of course,why would you pay any attention to such boring and mundane details??Instead you will just cherry pick the info that suits your cause and then spread such filth everywhere without any shame!!Quite a* THINK TANK CONSULTANT* I have to say!!
> 
> 
> 
> Read his post once again,more carefully this time.That guy said 100* more*,more being the keyword here,he meant additional 100 systems,over and above the 500 numbers.Carry on.



The quality of the TT is going down

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## kṣamā

@Echo_419 @Omega007 : Guys you are fighting a loosing battle. Plus it's not there fault. They have never seen an organization like CAG in their country neither can question their armed forces. Lastly when they can sling mud on India for desecrating Islam when an Urdu news paper was used in a fire cracker, this is nothing. Also no need to clog their limited intellectual ability with technical details. Their ability is best suited for conspiracy theories and playing a broken record !!

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> You are wasting your time here.The same rant will repeat again like a broken record with no clue and source.I would be so happy if the platform we are discussing is neutral.
> @Dazzler how about a discussion in militaryphoto.net ?



That forum is even below than your beloved d+f+I. Half of the gophers there don't even know the difference between an MBT and an APC. 

@Omega007 

Firstly, mind your language as it shows where you come from. Secondly, instead of abuse and idiotic comments that show your mental calibre, try to be more sensible for once. 

CAG report has nothing to do with the capability of the said mbts. All it shows is the irregular and corrupt induction. The noteworthy thing is why the supposed primary user is so wary of the so called indigenous MBT? 

The day any of you answer this question, you will live in peace.



kṣamā said:


> @Echo_419 @Omega007 : Guys you are fighting a loosing battle. Plus it's not there fault. They have never seen an organization like CAG in their country neither can question their armed forces. Lastly when they can sling mud on India for desecrating Islam when an Urdu news paper was used in a fire cracker, this is nothing. Also no need to clog their limited intellectual ability with technical details. Their ability is best suited for conspiracy theories and playing a broken record !!




The record is far from broken but is a nightmare that your army is living in. In the absence of proper antitank ammo to fire and proper subsystems to survive, the entire IA MBT fleet is a toothless tiger. Accept it and pray Chinese don't extend their stay next time around.

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## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> That forum is even below than your beloved d+f+I. Half of the gophers there don't even know the difference between an MBT and an APC.
> 
> @Omega007
> 
> Firstly, mind your language as it shows where you come from. Secondly, instead of abuse and idiotic comments that show your mental calibre, try to be more sensible for once.
> 
> CAG report has nothing to do with the capability of the said mbts. All it shows is the irregular and corrupt induction. The noteworthy thing is why the supposed primary user is so wary of the so called indigenous MBT?
> 
> The day any of you answer this question, you will live in peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The record is far from broken but is a nightmare that your army is living in. In the absence of proper antitank ammo to fire and proper subsystems to survive, the entire IA MBT fleet is a toothless tiger. Accept it and pray Chinese don't extend their stay next time around.


You know what a looser always see reason for anything, military photos aint run by Indians or Pakistani. That's the best place to discuss where people will judge on legitimate of your claims.
Talking about the corruption in CAG or IA. We are still better than Pakistan in corruption ranking or if we go in same context AK and JF must be a junk pakistan don't have a external auditor agency to check its claim.I will not be repeating again, lets not drag either country internal affairs or else hell will upon you. You got lot to loose here mate.


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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> You know what a looser always see reason for anything, military photos aint run by Indians or Pakistani. That's the best place to discuss where people will judge on legitimate of your claims.
> Talking about the corruption in CAG or IA. We are still better than Pakistan in corruption ranking or if we go in same context AK and JF must be a junk pakistan don't have a external auditor agency to check its claim.I will not be repeating again, lets not drag either country internal affairs or else hell will upon you. You got lot to loose here mate.



Had an account there, closed it as its not worth my time. Tanknet is interesting though.

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## kṣamā

Dazzler said:


> That forum is even below than your beloved d+f+I. Half of the gophers there don't even know the difference between an MBT and an APC.
> 
> @Omega007
> 
> Firstly, mind your language as it shows where you come from. Secondly, instead of abuse and idiotic comments that show your mental calibre, try to be more sensible for once.
> 
> CAG report has nothing to do with the capability of the said mbts. All it shows is the irregular and corrupt induction. The noteworthy thing is why the supposed primary user is so wary of the so called indigenous MBT?
> 
> The day any of you answer this question, you will live in peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The record is far from broken but is a nightmare that your army is living in. In the absence of proper antitank ammo to fire and proper subsystems to survive, the entire IA MBT fleet is a toothless tiger. Accept it and pray Chinese don't extend their stay next time around.


I would like to ask an explanation for the negative rating. B'coz it's evident that you are distributing negative ratings to anyone and everyone who does not roll with you. Moreover you have been blabbering along the entire thread without any credible source material. Whereas others providing with materials are made fun of. Sometimes reading post of your kind, one has to re-check if this is still a defense forum or one of those ladies parties where every one is throwing tantrums. And watching you throwing negative rating, angry lady throwing tantrums seem the perfect analogy.

For your broken record, why IA is buying foreign stuff when we have a MBT at hand, it's have to do with conveyance and kick-backs. Conveyance:- IA had good experience with tanks of T90 weight class and have supporting infra for it. Kick-backs:- Foreign arms dealer always provide lucrative benefits which cannot be asked for when buying home grown stuff. Also as my fellow posters have previously explained, the orders of T90 where placed before the comparative trials begun. But we know, many posters here do not have any spare grey cells to invest on that thought. 

Lastly a person throwing in his/her personal views on an MBT when they cannot spell "caliber" right, that has to be the most hilarious of things.

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## Dazzler

kṣamā said:


> I would like to ask an explanation for the negative rating. B'coz it's evident that you are distributing negative ratings to anyone and everyone who does not roll with you. Moreover you have been blabbering along the entire thread without any credible source material. Whereas others providing with materials are made fun of. Sometimes reading post of your kind, one has to re-check if this is still a defense forum or one of those ladies parties where every one is throwing tantrums. And watching you throwing negative rating, angry lady throwing tantrums seem the perfect analogy.
> 
> For your broken record, why IA is buying foreign stuff when we have a MBT at hand, it's have to do with conveyance and kick-backs. Conveyance:- IA had good experience with tanks of T90 weight class and have supporting infra for it. Kick-backs:- Foreign arms dealer always provide lucrative benefits which cannot be asked for when buying home grown stuff. Also as my fellow posters have previously explained, the orders of T90 where placed before the comparative trials begun. But we know, many posters here do not have any spare grey cells to invest on that thought.
> 
> Lastly a person throwing in his/her personal views on an MBT when they cannot spell "caliber" right, that has to be the most hilarious of things.




Go over this forum and find how many negative ratings I have given. However, I am quite intolerant to stupid rants and nonsensical egotistical idioticiy.

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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> Go over this forum and find how many negative ratings I have given. However, I am quite intolerant to stupid rants and nonsensical egotistical idioticiy.



That's actually quite rich coming from a guy a like you!!

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## kṣamā

Dazzler said:


> Go over this forum and find how many negative ratings I have given. However, I am quite intolerant to stupid rants and nonsensical egotistical idioticiy.


If that's so then you should give yourself about 3558 negative ratings !!

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## Zarvan

Dazzler said:


> Go over this forum and find how many negative ratings I have given. However, I am quite intolerant to stupid rants and nonsensical egotistical idioticiy.


I told this to @DESERT FIGHTER and I am telling you stop wasting time with Indians brother they are indirectly blaming their own Army of treason because their own Army is going for inferior T-90 than going for mighty Arjun. They are too blinded by there patriotism so let them remain in that delusion.

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## The_Sidewinder

Dazzler aka PDF Main Battle Tank analyst doesnt dish out negative rating at will to be honest. But he is quite stubborn about inferiority of Indian MBTs. I had arguments with him in the past, but never saw him dishing out negative ratings.


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## Dazzler

Zarvan said:


> I told this to @DESERT FIGHTER and I am telling you stop wasting time with Indians brother they are indirectly blaming their own Army of treason because their own Army is going for inferior T-90 than going for mighty Arjun. They are too blinded by there patriotism so let them remain in that delusion.



That's the funny part, they blame IAF for treason for finding glitches in the plane, do the same with the IA for not inducting Arjuna in required numbers. man its tough on them really!



Omega007 said:


> That's actually quite rich coming from a guy a like you!!



Each of your post deserves one due to the sheer stupidity abuse and arrogance you show. This behavior will only lead you to fall.

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## Omega007

Dazzler said:


> Each of your post deserves one due to the sheer stupidity abuse and arrogance you show. This behavior will only lead you to fall.



That's actually quite rich coming from a guy a like you!!

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## kṣamā

Dazzler said:


> That's the funny part, they blame IAF for treason for finding glitches in the plane, do the same with the IA for not inducting Arjuna in required numbers. man its tough on them really!
> 
> 
> 
> Each of your post deserves one due to the sheer stupidity abuse and arrogance you show. This behavior will only lead you to fall.


 Again Mr.TT show us source material proving them to be inferior or you can shut the pie hole. We have given enough material and reasons for IA's behavior. But when a fool is hell bent on not recognizing the logic and blind hatred is rampant one cannot argue with them.

Also Mr. @Zarvan we are accusing our IA and IAF of not using home grown stuff bcoz we can. We can bcoz we have home grown stuff and our civilian government can command the armed forces. Yes, we all Indians agree that our stuff will have some defects and chinks in the Armour but they will only will resolve when the end user works with the developers. And to do that they need to use the product. Case in point Arjun (And its not Arjuna or Arjunk ) was severely handicapped in comparative but even then came as the top dog. If that dose not say anything about it's quality I donn know what will. And why IA is not accepting it ?? Well we answered that question a million times earlier. 

So both of you, if you wanna say Arjun is inferior to T90 then come with specific reason and source material to back it. This is a defense forum not your daily news channel where anyone can say anything and it's believed on face value (Read Water Car and Laws of Physics are limitation set by goras on innocent musalmans !!)


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## desimorty

Lol @Dazzler 
Are you still going on about this? Why do you compare a 40 ton tank to a 60 ton tank? These are different tanks altogether. The T-90 is like Alkhalid and the other Chinese tanks. Its a tank but its a medium tank.
For all the Arjuns flaws, its still a heavy tank, in the same dimensions as Leopord. Have you not noticed that both China and India have opted for a multi tier tank solution Categorized by weight class. No matter how horrible or flawed the Arjun is it is inherently a supperior tank when it comes to 1 on 1 scenario between a medium tank. Heavy armour and a bigger gun. for every Arjun or Abrham you can have 2 or 3 T-90s.
I mean, you still go at the Arjun like its 2001 when every one said the arjun was a failure so is Tejas. Now they are all being inducted. Lord and behold the fruits or RnD and money. You can't acceapt the fact that India has bigger, better tank than its neighbours. Is that in the ballpark?


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## Zarvan

kṣamā said:


> Again Mr.TT show us source material proving them to be inferior or you can shut the pie hole. We have given enough material and reasons for IA's behavior. But when a fool is hell bent on not recognizing the logic and blind hatred is rampant one cannot argue with them.
> 
> Also Mr. @Zarvan we are accusing our IA and IAF of not using home grown stuff bcoz we can. We can bcoz we have home grown stuff and our civilian government can command the armed forces. Yes, we all Indians agree that our stuff will have some defects and chinks in the Armour but they will only will resolve when the end user works with the developers. And to do that they need to use the product. Case in point Arjun (And its not Arjuna or Arjunk ) was severely handicapped in comparative but even then came as the top dog. If that dose not say anything about it's quality I donn know what will. And why IA is not accepting it ?? Well we answered that question a million times earlier.
> 
> So both of you, if you wanna say Arjun is inferior to T90 then come with specific reason and source material to back it. This is a defense forum not your daily news channel where anyone can say anything and it's believed on face value (Read Water Car and Laws of Physics are limitation set by goras on innocent musalmans !!)


Yes and your Armed Forces are trying there level best to avoid home made things and weapons because they know they are a total disaster and crap so they want to better equipment to face Pakistan and China but your dumb illiterate politicians think they know more about weapons than your own Armed Forces. Your politicians are going to sold your defence for their commission but you will remain blind in your patriotism.

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## kṣamā

Zarvan said:


> Yes and your Armed Forces are trying there level best to avoid home made things and weapons because they know they are a total disaster and crap so they want to better equipment to face Pakistan and China .


Again I am wasting precious bandwidth asking you this, but let's give it a try , How can a " total disaster and crap" equipment beat T90 hands down ?? And this not a rumor or something someone said or someone with internal contacts knew, it's well documented and presented. Not only that the comparative trial was rigged in favor of T90 and even then it performed, if not poorly, on par with Arjun. IA is "Buying" equipment because of Kick-backs and they will not get any if they go local.



Zarvan said:


> your dumb illiterate politicians think they know more about weapons than your own Armed Forces


 I agree that politicians are dumb but the information they get are not from dumb sources. Also if you say *Mr.Manohar Parrikar *then you are no judge of people. He is an IITian and head and shoulder above any army brass. Moreover we believe in our research agencies more than our armed forces. Note that we TRUST our armed forces with our lives but when it comes to technology we trust our research agencies. And when they say A is better than B with supporting raw data, no one can question them.



Zarvan said:


> Your politicians are going to sold your defence for their commission but you will remain blind in your patriotism.


Our old DM did try to screw us over. It was not only him alone the entire govt. try to do the same. The aftermath of their action was visible in the last election. Also how is my blind patriotism affecting me ?? Both T90 and Arjun are in IA, both are more than capable of handling PA. It dose not matter if PA gets hit by T90 or Arjun, both are gonna hurt bad. Its just we Indians saying lets build a tank at home, cut the middle man. 

One thing that is puzzling me, if Pakistanis know that Arjun is inferior to T90 and T90 is way too inferior to their mighty Al Khalid, then why are they getting panties in a twist when we say Arjun is better than T90 ?? They know our homegrown stuff is " total disaster and crap" and their AL Khalid, which is almost heavenly, immortal and Cheap all at the same time, can crush it by just showing up to the battle field, why are they worried about Arjun ??? Plus they do have 1 Pakistani = 10 Kafirs thing going !!


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## Zarvan

kṣamā said:


> Again I am wasting precious bandwidth asking you this, but let's give it a try , How can a " total disaster and crap" equipment beat T90 hands down ?? And this not a rumor or something someone said or someone with internal contacts knew, it's well documented and presented. Not only that the comparative trial was rigged in favor of T90 and even then it performed, if not poorly, on par with Arjun. IA is "Buying" equipment because of Kick-backs and they will not get any if they go local.
> 
> I agree that politicians are dumb but the information they get are not from dumb sources. Also if you say *Mr.Manohar Parrikar *then you are no judge of people. He is an IITian and head and shoulder above any army brass. Moreover we believe in our research agencies more than our armed forces. Note that we TRUST our armed forces with our lives but when it comes to technology we trust our research agencies. And when they say A is better than B with supporting raw data, no one can question them.
> 
> Our old DM did try to screw us over. It was not only him alone the entire govt. try to do the same. The aftermath of their action was visible in the last election. Also how is my blind patriotism affecting me ?? Both T90 and Arjun are in IA, both are more than capable of handling PA. It dose not matter if PA gets hit by T90 or Arjun, both are gonna hurt bad. Its just we Indians saying lets build a tank at home, cut the middle man.
> 
> One thing that is puzzling me, if Pakistanis know that Arjun is inferior to T90 and T90 is way too inferior to their mighty Al Khalid, then why are they getting panties in a twist when we say Arjun is better than T90 ?? They know our homegrown stuff is " total disaster and crap" and their AL Khalid, which is almost heavenly, immortal and Cheap all at the same time, can crush it by just showing up to the battle field, why are they worried about Arjun ??? Plus they do have 1 Pakistani = 10 Kafirs thing going !!


Arjun beats T-90 and you fall for this report you are one hell of a funny guy @DESERT FIGHTER I am seriously started to love these Indians.

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## Water Car Engineer

Zarvan said:


> Yes and your Armed Forces are trying there level best to avoid home made things and weapons because they know they are a total disaster and crap so they want to better equipment to face Pakistan and China but your dumb illiterate politicians think they know more about weapons than your own Armed Forces. Your politicians are going to sold your defence for their commission but you will remain blind in your patriotism.




Right... All the while all of this is happening, right?



















Almost all of the surface ships are being designed in house. With homemade SSNs, SSKs, etc. in the works. Good one.

Also mind you the T90 replacement, just like the BMP one is going to be homemade.

And probably done in the PPP arrangement.

Kestral is one such example with TATA and DRDO collaborating.

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## Zarvan

Water Car Engineer said:


> Right... All the while all of this is happening, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good one.
> 
> Also mind you the T90 replacement, just like the BMP one is going to be homemade.


Yes they went for these because they are good and that proves they don't have problem with local products as long as they are good enough they are running away from Arjun and Tejas because they know they are crap for GOD sake wake up and smell the coffee

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## vsdave2302

Water Car Engineer said:


> Right... All the while all of this is happening, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost all of the surface ships are being designed in house. With homemade SSNs, SSKs, etc. in the works. Good one.
> 
> Also mind you the T90 replacement, just like the BMP one is going to be homemade.
> 
> And probably done in the PPP arrangement.
> 
> Kestral is one such example with TATA and DRDO collaborating.


 

You are tying explan whoes sole motive is just to troll.


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## Water Car Engineer

Zarvan said:


> Yes they went for these because they are good and that proves they don't have problem with local products as long as they are good enough they are running away from Arjun and Tejas because they know they are crap for GOD sake wake up and smell the coffee




Well, they're being ordered.

But the army will go for FMBT in large numbers, this is in the "make" category. And probably be done in a similar fashion to the BMP replacement.

And from the reports, it's be a light tank, with auto loader, smoothboore, etc.


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## kṣamā

Zarvan said:


> Arjun beats T-90 and you fall for this report you are one hell of a funny guy @DESERT FIGHTER I am seriously started to love these Indians.


Trying to explain you something is like trying to teach emu fly. Both of you are not genetically programmed to do that !!! If you still want to give me a single line comeback then man you must have fallen on head several times when you where kid.

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## Zarvan

kṣamā said:


> Trying to explain you something is like trying to teach emu fly. Both of you are not genetically programmed to do that !!! If you still want to give me a single line comeback then man you must have fallen on head several times when you where kid.


Man you are dam to funny and please never mind you are free to live in delusion than your mighty Arjun is better than T-90

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## Omega007

Zarvan said:


> Man you are dam to funny and please never mind you are free to live in delusion than your mighty Arjun is better than T-90



Well mr know all,since you are the holy grail of MBTs personified,pray enlighten us lower beings with your great wisdom,in which way the T 90S is better than the Arjun MkII and describe them point by point.


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## Zarvan

Omega007 said:


> Well mr know all,since you are the holy grail of MBTs personified,pray enlighten us lower beings with your great wisdom,in which way the T 90S is better than the Arjun MkII and describe them point by point.


@Dazzler will do that job he will describe you one by one but still you won't listen

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## Omega007

Zarvan said:


> Arjun beats T-90 and you fall for this report you are one hell of a funny guy @DESERT FIGHTER I am seriously started to love these Indians.



Can't even squat without asking for help from daddy!!And I thought you were the Gospel when it came to military matters!!



Zarvan said:


> @Dazzler will do that job he will describe you one by one but still you won't listen



Well,I'm asking you sire since you know everything yourself!!Why do you need to take help from @Dazzler now when you were so quick to make fun of the Indian members??Then what does this tell us about you??


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## Zarvan

Omega007 said:


> Can't even squat without asking for help from daddy!!And I thought you were the Gospel when it came to military matters!!
> 
> 
> 
> Well,I'm asking you sire since you know everything yourself!!Why do you need to take help from @Dazzler now when you were so quick to make fun of the Indian members??Then what does this tell us about you??


I can but you are to dumb to listen in your love for your own made crap but what else to expect from those people who are constantly blaming there own Army of treason

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## Omega007

Zarvan said:


> I can but you are to dumb to listen in your love for your own made crap but what else to expect from those people who are constantly blaming there own Army of treason



On the contrary,I'm all ears actually!!It was me who asked you to come clean on your 'findings',about what prompted you to form your opinion on Arjun,but then I was probably too naive to hope for answers from you that would be remotely intelligible.Actually it's you who have been blinded by false nationalism and hate for his neighbor and not the other way round that you can't see or rather want to see the reality!!


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## kṣamā

Zarvan said:


> I can but you are to dumb to listen in your love for your own made crap but what else to expect from those people who are constantly blaming there own Army of treason


If you can then do it.... it's a different story what we do. We like to call a spade a spade. I donn know how you roll.

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## holysaturn

Got access to a CVRDE magazine presented to our University department, I could find some very interesting stuff in it.

This is a picture of the arjun HEAT round which was tried initially but concept did not reach its conclusion.This was particularly new to me.






Arjun firing accuracy at the target during trials.






Arjun CMF





Arjun ARRV





Variants of FMBT





And finally the FMBT design itself. Though this design is not frozen it gives us some insights.





Specifications which we were anxious to hear. 125mm gun for commonality with t-90 ammo,retaining 4 crew may be related to handling the increased flow of information in the digital battlefield and maintenance. Mature components like ATT,COAPS,RWS of Arjun MK2 will be used for the FMBT to minimise development time.

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## Gessler

holysaturn said:


> Got access to a CVRDE magazine presented to our University department, I could find some very interesting stuff in it.
> 
> This is a picture of the arjun HEAT round which was tried initially but concept did not reach its conclusion.This was particularly new to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun firing accuracy at the target during trials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun CMF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun ARRV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Variants of FMBT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And finally the FMBT design itself. Though this design is not frozen it gives us some insights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Specifications which we were anxious to hear



Brilliant! Anything else in the book about other armored vehicles being built by CVRDE?


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## holysaturn

Gessler said:


> Brilliant! Anything else in the book about other armored vehicles being built by CVRDE?


No everything else was the usual stuff, catapult,BLT,Bhim. Did not think this book could have rare info, scrolling through the pages when I hit upon these.

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## Omega007

holysaturn said:


> Got access to a CVRDE magazine presented to our University department, I could find some very interesting stuff in it.
> 
> This is a picture of the arjun HEAT round which was tried initially but concept did not reach its conclusion.This was particularly new to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun firing accuracy at the target during trials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun CMF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun ARRV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Variants of FMBT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And finally the FMBT design itself. Though this design is not frozen it gives us some insights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Specifications which we were anxious to hear. 125mm gun for commonality with t-90 ammo,retaining 4 crew may be related to handling the increased flow of information in the digital battlefield and maintenance. Mature components like ATT,COAPS,RWS of Arjun MK2 will be used for the FMBT to minimise development time.



This is more of just initial concept drawings than anything actual.No one knows what FMBT would look like since the Army haven't even submitted the PSQR yet!!But one thing is for sure,the weight will never be limited to just 50 tons,in fact there is enough chance that the overall weight may increase over the 59 ton of Arjun MkII if they want to maintain a viable level of crew protection against ever evolving anti armor threats.Just take a look at what other nations are doing with their MBTs,the MBTs all over the world are growing more and more heavier compared to their earlier blocks.................be it the Russians,Ukrainians,Chinese,Koreans,Americans,Germans - each and every one of them are building newer MBTs which are heavier than their predecessors.So I don't see any reason why India will do it any differently.

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## holysaturn

Omega007 said:


> This is more of just initial concept drawings than anything actual.No one knows what FMBT would look like since the Army haven't even submitted the PSQR yet!!But one thing is for sure,the weight will never be limited to just 50 tons,in fact there is enough chance that the overall weight may increase over the 59 ton of Arjun MkII if they want to maintain a viable level of crew protection against ever evolving anti armor threats.Just take a look at what other nations are doing with their MBTs,the MBTs all over the world are growing more and more heavier compared to their earlier blocks.................be it the Russians,Ukrainians,Chinese,Koreans,Americans,Germans - each and every one of them are building newer MBTs which are heavier than their predecessors.So I don't see any reason why India will do it any differently.


It is an initial concept not the frozen one,but some specifications may be right.You are right when you say that the weight cannot be 50 tons, it is probably going to be a little more heavy but they would be adopting a armour which can be scaled up according to the threats on the field so that strategic mobility is not affected.

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## Omega007

holysaturn said:


> It is an initial concept not the frozen one,but some specifications may be right.You are right when you say that the weight cannot be 50 tons, it is probably going to be a little more heavy but *they would be adopting a armour which can be scaled up according to the threats on the field* so that strategic mobility is not affected.



Yeah,I had heard that one before,it means the MBT will have different armor thickness level based on the threat perception,somewhat like that of the Japanese Type 10 and upcoming Russian Armata project.It' would be good innovation if you ask me.Anyway,apart from the weight,the gun is also a no no since the 125mm guns have very low growth potential and then an L/52 of 125mm diameter would be never sufficient for the battlefield of future.Personally I would prefer a 140 mm L/52 smoo9th barrel fitted to an unmanned turret,though it may become a bit too complex as a system.
And besides the gun,the number of crew member also doesn't make any sense.I mean why would you need 4 crew members when you have decided to place an auto loader??What would be the function of the 4th crew member??It just doesn't make any sense.

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## holysaturn

Omega007 said:


> Yeah,I had heard that one before,it means the MBT will have different armor thickness level based on the threat perception,somewhat like that of the Japanese Type 10 and upcoming Russian Armata project.It' would be good innovation if you ask me.Anyway,apart from the weight,the gun is also a no no since the 125mm guns have very low growth potential and then an L/52 of 125mm diameter would be never sufficient for the battlefield of future.Personally I would prefer a 140 mm L/52 smoo9th barrel fitted to an unmanned turret,though it may become a bit too complex as a system.
> *And besides the gun,the number of crew member also doesn't make any sense.I mean why would you need 4 crew members when you have decided to place an auto loader??What would be the function of the 4th crew member??It just doesn't make any sense*.


Yes I find that absurd but its not me who made this specification,I am just posting what I found.But CVRDE designers have told me that 4 man crew are ideal to handle the intensive maintenance,can be handy in urban combat where two can man MG's on the roof(the RWS with its small field of view is just not responsive enough if the attackers are as responsive as the chechens) but weight reduction trade-off can change things. .
Scalable armour will also be available for belly armour to tackle IED threats in urban operations where mobility is restricted and thus not critical.


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## me_itsme

If you see in this video from 2:21 it shows a possible concept of MK3. It does match the concept shown in the article to some extent atleast.

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## Omega007

holysaturn said:


> Yes I find that absurd but* its not me who made this specification*,I am just posting what I found.


Neither have I accused of anything,rather I was just pointing out the apparent flaws in the design concept you posted.



holysaturn said:


> *But CVRDE designers have told me that 4 man crew are ideal* to handle the intensive maintenance,*can be handy in urban combat where two can man MG's on the roof(the RWS with its small field of view is just not responsive enough if the attackers are as responsive as the chechens)* but weight reduction trade-off can change things. .



Another flawed theory which just cements my fear that CVRDE still doesn't understand the design concept and operational needs of an MBT.This is what happens when you have stuffed the design team with civilian technocrats only,who doesn't have any practical experience in or idea about warfare actual battlefield.Like for this instance,it's an established norm that armored warfare inside urban environment should be avoided as long as possible.And even if you must engage in the same,for armored forces to move through urban environment,you need dedicated tank support vehicles like the Russian BMP-T Terminator,which are properly equipped to deal with insurgents armed with RPGs and other anti tank weapons.An MBT alone can not handle each and every threat,especially the threats from the overhead positions due to the lower elevation limit of its main gun and the secondary armaments lacking the necessary 'punch'.A 12.7mm HMG won't be as effective in suppressing a bunch of insurgents,holed in say at the 5th floor of a concrete building as would be a pair of 30 mm high velocity guns placed on your turret............and that's the exact reason why you need something like the BMP-T.



holysaturn said:


> Scalable armour will also be available for belly armour to tackle IED threats in urban operations where mobility is restricted and thus not critical.



This is a very good decision actually.

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## Water Car Engineer

It's all in Tamil

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## Major Shaitan Singh

*WILL THE TANK «ARJUN» MK.II COMPETITOR T-90S «BISHMA»?*





Get enough experience in the production license of armored vehicles (armored vehicles) in the 70-80-ies. the last century, Indian engineers have attempted to start work in creating your own samples armored vehicles, including main tank «Arjun». Tactical and technical requirements for the development of the new tank Indian Army developed in 1972. It was intended to replace the tanks «Vijayanta», and in the Indian Research Institute CVRDE combat vehicles in 1974 were started design work on the new machine. By the time the first prototype tank «Arjun» was introduced in April 1984, on the project has already been spent 300 million. Indian rupees (approximately $ 6 million.).




Tank «Arjun» Mk.I



It looked like one of the first prototypes of the tank «Arjun» Mk.ll

For a new project, as usual, joined many foreign companies, including German «Krauss-Maffei», MTU (engine), «Renk» (automatic transmission), «Diehl» (caterpillars) and others.

The main problems when creating a new machine having the engine. Originally it was planned to install a gas turbine engine capacity of 1500 hp, but later it was decided to use the newly developed 12-cylinder air-cooled diesel engine with variable compression ratio with the same capacity. However, the first model of the engine only developed 500 hp Its further development allowed to increase this figure to 1,000 hp when installing the turbo.

Tank «Arjun» had hydropneumatic suspension. Truckee caterpillar tracks made of aluminum alloy with rubber mount and rubber pads. Track tension mechanism equipped with built-in overload protection.

Were originally built six prototypes of the tank «Arjun», equipped with the German diesel MTU MB838 Ka-501 of 1400 hp with automatic transmission «Renk». All prototypes were steel hull and turret, but Prototyping performance, without the use of armor.

Serial machines were produced with the new combined armor «Kanchan», developed by the Laboratory of Metallurgy Ministry of Defence of India (Indian Defence Metallurgical Laboratory). It is manufactured by «Mishra Dhatu Nigam». Thermal sighting equipment was developed by DRDO.

The fire control system (FCS) tank «Arjun», consisting of a laser rangefinder, ballistic computer, thermal sight, stabilized panoramic sight of the tank commander, additional telescopic sight and electronic components, is guaranteed to provide a high probability of getting the first shot. Estimated CVRDE, automated MSA third generation in a complex with a 120-mm rifled gun (also developed in India) and the gun with electronic control allows the gunner to detect, identify, track and successfully hit the moving targets when shooting on the move.

The main gunner's sight combines daytime, thermal and laser rangefinder channels and a single two-axis stabilized head mirror on all three channels. Day sight has two fixed large field of vision. The thermal sight enables the detection of targets gunners and tank commanders in complete darkness and poor visibility conditions (smoke, fog, snow, rain, etc.).

Commander's panoramic sight allows him to make a circular battlefield surveillance without turning his head and his eyes on the sight and without rotation of the tower. The field of view of the sight stabilized in two planes by means of a gyroscope mounted on a platform of the head of the mirror. The sight has two fixed large field of vision.

Ballistic calculator determines the initial settings for shooting in accordance with the information provided by a variety of automatic sensors installed in the car and on manual data entry. It produces electrical signals proportional to the need for firing angles of elevation and azimuth.




Tank «Arjun» Mk.l sea trials

To improve the accuracy of shooting MSA has a window overlap, which allows for the firing of the gun only when it is in a certain position in accordance with signals ballistic computer (on Russian tanks used for this electronic unit resolution shot).

The machine is armed with a 120mm rifled gun, for which the Indian Explosives Research Institute in Pune have been developed unitary shots with partially burned sleeve with armor-piercing, cumulative, armor-piercing with plastic explosives and smoke shells. Powder charge high-energy developed by the same institution, allows you to tell a high initial velocity projectiles and thus providing them with high armor. In addition to the previously mentioned munitions now developed a special protivovertoletny shell. The gun is made of special steel, manufactured using the technology of electroslag remelting, and is equipped with a heat-insulating casing and ejector. Together with him paired 7.62-mm machine gun. 12.7 mm anti-aircraft machine gun is designed to combat low-flying targets.

Drives turret and gun prototypes were electromechanical supplied by FWM from Germany. Production tanks «Arjun» equipped with electrohydraulic actuators, which significantly reduced Pozharovzryvoopasnost in the fighting compartment. On both sides of the tower blocks set devyatistvolnye smoke grenade with five trunks on top and four from the bottom.

Production tanks «Arjun» were equipped with a diesel engine, developing power 1400 hp in combination with a semi-automatic planetary transmission with four forward gears and two reverse, designed by local engineers. Braking is done quick disc brakes with hydraulic drive.

The tank has a system of collective NBC protection, designed and created the atomic research center in Bhabha (BARC - Atomic Research Centre). To improve the survivability on the battlefield machine has an automatic fire extinguishing system. Ammunition removed in waterproof containers to reduce the possibility of fire.

In March 1993, the Indian media reported that the tank «Arjun» successfully completed the test. During a demonstration in the desert Rajasthan in western India, two prototype cars struck still and moving targets at ranges of 800 to 2100 m, to overcome various obstacles, steep climbs 60% and maneuvered in areas obstacles. The prototypes were built at heavy engineering HVF (Heavy Vehicle Factory) in Avadi.







New Indian tank «Arjun» Mk.II

In mid-1998, it was announced that the total number of tanks constructed «Arjun» amounted to 32 units. This includes 12 prototypes, two tanks with torsion bar suspension, one test, one ARV and one experimental tank «Arjun» Mk.II. Last shown at the exhibition of arms «Defexpo India 2002", held in New Delhi in February 2002. In the future, the Indian military plans to issue on tank chassis «Arjun» Bram engineering machinery ERV, armored vehicle launched bridge BLT, anti-aircraft missile or anti-aircraft artillery system, self-propelled artillery field artillery.

Presented at the exhibition in 2002 experienced tank «Arjun» Mk.II little fundamentally different from its predecessor tank «Arjun» Mk.I. Therefore, the work on improving the car Indian engineers continued. But the introduction of the National Indian troops in tanks dragged on for decades. In the early 2000s, the Indian Army has signed a contract for the purchase of 124 tanks «Arjun» Mk.I, today was delivered 116 cars, 8 more machines must be received during the current year. However, step-by-step machine introduced more and more improvements. Ultimately tank «Arjun» Mk.I received a total of 89 improvements and enhancements, and then in the Indian Army was finally decided to assign the name of the tank «Arjun» Mk.II. 89 These improvements were introduced in the car not only to meet the challenges faced during the testing and operation of the tank «Arjun» Mk.I, but also to meet the future requirements of the Indian Army.

In the course of work on the improvement of the tank on the new modification «Arjun» Mk.II were increased rates of protection, firepower, mobility, and command control.

With regard to improving the security of the tank designers have equipped the car explosive reactive armor (ERA). DZ elements were installed on the front of the chassis, on the body side skirts, on the front part and the sides of the tower.The very design of side skirts also been changed. In addition tank «Arjun» Mk.II equipped Mine knife trawl GKh.

http://otvaga2004.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/otvaga2004_Arjun_08.jpg
Modernized tank was equipped with a system of optical-electronic suppression, which consists of a set of sensors detect the laser irradiation, two blocks launchers launch smoke (aerosol) grenade launchers 8 each, and control equipment. Blocks launchers mounted on the sides of the tower in the aft part of it. In this case, the blocks are made rotary launchers with electric. Four laser radiation detecting sensor mounted at the corners at the roof of the tower.

In the short term plan to equip the tank «Arjun» Mk.II and active protection system APS, capable of destroying by physical destruction of warheads approaching the tank ammunition. Most likely, it will be the Israeli Active Protection System «Trophy».

To improve the survival tank driver with landmine or improvised explosive devices, he made an outboard seat to the top of the cabinet, by type, as now it is done on the German tanks «Leopard 2A6M» and later its modifications.

Only measures to increase the protection of the tank «Arjun» Mk.II resulted in an increase in weight of the machine to 3 tons.

Firepower tank «Arjun» Mk.II enhanced by the inclusion in the armament of the new automated fire control system, guided weapons, additional weapons as part of a remote controlled weapon stations.

Guided weapons development uses Israeli guided missile LAHAT laser-guided. Launch is done through the barrel of a tank 120-mm rifled gun.

Tank commander «Arjun» Mk.II at its disposal has a new panoramic sight with a combined thermal channel.In addition, the new commander's sight provides tank commander mode hunter-killer («hunter-killer").

On the roof of the tower a new modification of the tank «Arjun» installed remotely controlled weapon module with 12.7-mm machine gun. Management module is carried out from a place charging. Earlier firing anti-aircraft machine gun mounted on the turret «Arjun» Mk.l, had to open the door to charge and fire the gun without being under the protection of armor.

According to Indian developers armored vehicles, now under development of new ammunition for the main tank weapons «Arjun» Mk.II, which have a higher power of action than currently in use. In addition, the leadership of the Indian Army has requested from its Israeli partners, to develop a set of guided weapons, expanding the range of types of warheads for guided missiles LAHAT.

In order to maintain the mobility of the tank at the same level, offsetting a 5-ton weight gain, have implemented several measures to improve the power plant, transmission and chassis. The power plant has been left in the same composition - MTU engine with transmission «Renk». However, during testing of the tank and its operation has been continuously improved air cleaning system and cooling system, gradually intensified as the engine itself and the gearbox. For a new modification of the tank «Arjun» were changed final drives, which was increased gear ratio from 4.4 to 5.3. This reduced the maximum speed of the tank to 58.5 km / h, but increased torque and traction on the drive wheels and tracks that helped to compensate for the increased weight of the tank. According to experts CVRDE, tank «Arjun» Mk.II has better acceleration capabilities than previous modifications, for the same fuel consumption.

To ensure that all previous resource chassis components with the increased weight of the tank, has been improved and suspension. To integrate the new suspension on the tank designers had to design a new building for the modernized tank. In use steel chassis supporting rollers slightly larger diameter than the previous modification of the tank.

To save the average specific pressure of the tank at the same level was used caterpillar with a new larger width of track. Truckee imported from Germany.

For the operation of systems tank parked without starting the main engine for additional power supply tank it was a more powerful auxiliary power unit (APU). Its capacity was increased from 4.5 kW to 8 kW. Zaman APU is installed on the right side of the tower, thus it is over power plant tank. According to the experience of combat use of American tanks type «Abrams» M1A2, which is located just as APU, there is a danger of complete combustion of the tank after the defeat of the APU from small arms or shell fragments.

In order to improve the controllability command tank and tank units to «Arjun» Mk.II equipped with modern digital communication systems, satellite GPS navigation systems and other equipment.

In 2012, the Indian landfills Indian military were conducted comparative tests of T-72M1M, T-90S «Bishma» and «Arjun» Mk.II. As reported in the trial was attended by the best crews and technicians. Indian media exploded about reports that the Indian tank on all counts bypassed Russian T-90S. One might wonder if the Indian media wrote something else. Criticism own equipment (especially the non-constructive) is possible only in the Russian media. Begs other questions, since the tank is so good, then why did the Indian Army orders for their needs only 116 such tanks, and T-90S - more than a thousand?





New Indian tank «Arjun» Mk.II at a military parade


As follows from the same Indian media, the tank «Arjun» Mk.II very good, but too heavy. This limits the regions where it can be used and makes it unsuitable with regard to operational requirements of the Indian Army to the main tank. The mass of the tank 67 tons fatally limited operational efficiency of the tank.In spite of the fact that the new «Arjun» in all respects "surpassed" the Russian T-90S, it turned out that it can not be sent to perform tasks to the border with Pakistan, he will not be able to effectively pass through an area filled with natural and / or artificial obstacles in the regions crossed by rivers and canals. And this is contrary to the national doctrine, according to which the armored units are planned for mobile offensive operations deep in enemy territory. In contrast to the T-72 and T-90, which are easy to airlift in areas at high altitude above sea level, tanks «Arjun» can not be airlifted transport aircraft IL-76 and, moreover, C-130J Indian Air Force. Transport aircraft C-17 «Globemaster», which have yet to get into the Indian Air Force (IAF), have a maximum capacity of 75 tons, which again is not enough to carry 67-ton «Arjun» Mk.ll with accessories.





T-90S "Bishma" screened shortly before his shipment to India, at an arms fair «REA-2002" in Nizhny Tagil


Thus, despite the best efforts of the team of designers and scientists tank «Arjun» unlikely ever to be ordered in large quantities by the Indian army, which needs today are about 3,500 tanks. General orders for tanks «Arjun» today are 240 cars (124 and 116 Mk.l Mk.ll).

According to the state of affairs at the moment, the first «Arjun» Mk.ll start off the production line at the factory HVF Avadi in 30 months after placing your order. The order itself, probably this year will be issued. Thus, the first tanks «Arjun» new modification will come into operation only in 2016. At the factory HVF planned production of 30 tanks a year. It turns out that all 116 tanks will be delivered by 2020. If work on the development of prospective Indian tank FMBT company DRDO will begin right now, the first tanks could appear ready for use in the army about in 2025. If things go well, as well as with the tank «Arjun», then even later - 2030-2035 gg. And until then Indian Army will carry out their tasks in tanks T-90S «Bishma» Russian design and upgraded T-72M1M «Ajeya», which have the necessary infrastructure in India for training, production and repair.

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## Major Shaitan Singh

Combined Gunner




Swivel block smoke grenade launchers





Combined commander's panoramic sight (left) and one of the sensors laser irradiation




The right side of the frontal part of the turret «Arjun» Mk.ll become the most vulnerable part of - not covered by DZ and large tunnel Gunner





Auxiliary Power Unit




Interior Indian crew compartment tank





Remotely operated weapon station on the roof of the turret «Arjun» Mk.II




Element hydropneumatic suspension

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## Dazzler

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> Combined Gunner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swivel block smoke grenade launchers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Combined commander's panoramic sight (left) and one of the sensors laser irradiation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The right side of the frontal part of the turret «Arjun» Mk.ll become the most vulnerable part of - not covered by DZ and large tunnel Gunner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Auxiliary Power Unit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interior Indian crew compartment tank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remotely operated weapon station on the roof of the turret «Arjun» Mk.II
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Element hydropneumatic suspension




Thanks for re-comfirming through Andrei what I have been saying for so long.

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
20-March, 2015 16:09 IST 

*Future Main Battle Tank *

Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun, a multidisciplinary Armoured Fighting Vehicle developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has already been inducted into the Indian Army. DRDO is presently engaged in the development of Arjun MBT Mk-II with 73 tank related improvements (including 18 major improvements), as on date, over MBT Mk-I. DRDO has taken proactive measures and decided to go-ahead with the following enabling & critical advance technologies development projects, so as to fill-up the technological gap and as well as to reduce the foreign dependence for all the future Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFVs): 

• Design and development of engine. 

• Design vetting of automatic transmission system, which is to be followed-up by a technology development project. 

• All electric drive for gun control system. 

• Active protection system. 

• Missile development. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Kalikesh N. Singh Deo in Lok Sabha today. 

DM/NAMPI/RAJ

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## migflug

Water Car Engineer said:


> It's all in Tamil


 from BR


Loose translation for non-Tamil speakers, by a non-native Tamil speaker






Around 0:20 - Vanakkam and welcome to the show, .... Today is republic day and on this happy day, if you're wondering where we've brought you, we're at CVRDE at Avadi, where India's defence research org is. If you are curious about exactly what is special at this place, please follow us.

0:45 The first person we are going to meet is the Director of CVRDE, Dr. Pa. Shivakumar, we can ask him for lots of good information, come on in.

1:15: About DRDO, you said, we need to know about it. Can you tell us a bit of information about DRDO
Dr: Shivakumar: Well if you look at India, we have various ministries. One of the important ministries is the Defence ministry. In the ministry of Defence, we can say there are four major wings. One is Department of Production, another one is Quality Assurance, another one is all Services (i.e.) Army, Navy, Airforce etc., and the R&D wing, that is DRDO, and DRDO is headed by a Scientific Advisor to Defence Ministry, he is heading that. If you look at the main role of DRDO, it is to fulfill the requirements of all users, whether it is Army, Navy, Airforce, it has to be fulfilled. If you look at DRDO today, we have 52 labs total spread out throughout the country. Starting from the needs of the army soldier's cloth, to the nuclear sub, aircraft, missile, tank etc., whatever the user needs, all the research, development, trials, evaluation and delivery for production environment is done initially by DRDO, which is the main focus. Today, if you look at DRDO, the 54 labs, 1.78 lakhs crores amount R&D developed products are now in production, so it shows the strength of DRDO.

Around 2:45 (then she asks about the two tanks behind her, actually she asks about "the two matters")
If you look at India, there are two main projects. One is Main Battle Tank, Arjun, another is light combat aircraft, Tejas. CVRDE is proud to be involved in both projects. MBT Arjun Mark - I, that's what you're looking at over here (on right side). This one, after all kinds of trials were finished and the user acceptance trials, we've delivered 2 regiments, almost 120 tanks, deployed to the border and operational. Army is very happy about them. After looking the the performance though, Army wanted some more improvements, because today world is improving a lot, so after you add the latest technologies, you can bring about another tank, so here we have Arjun mark II (on left side) -- this has 19 major improvements and 69 minor improvement points. So total 85 improvements together, we added on this tank (Mark I) and we made it as a MBT Mark II. The speciality is that within 2 years, we could come out with a product. So for Arjun mark I, people say we took 20 years for it, but if you look today, we are very strong, because we learnt how to do it all and so we can prove that we can do it fast, in just 2 years we produced this new tank and it is almost done with user trials and MBT Mark II, we are expecting more numbers shortly.

4:00 Ok, so Indian Army will start using this weapon soon?
Dr. S: definitely
So, could you let us know about the special features of this tank (MBT mark II)
Major thing if you look, you may have seen missiles, like ones from DRDO are surface to surface, surface to air etc. But now we have tank fired missiles, we actually proved there is such a thing on Arjun in 2004. Army said we want this for production and so one of the important capabilities of Mark II is that it can fire missiles. Besides that, there is this thing called Commanders Panoramic Sight. Tank's most important leader is the commander. He has to know what is happening with 360 degree surveillance, should be able to see at day or night, so all these improvements, we have done in the commander's panoramic sight. One more improvement is the RCWS - Remote controlled weapons system, that is the loader can sit inside and can fire at low flying targets. Besides all this, look at the front and you'll see a track with mine plow. If you look, mines are the biggest problem today for the army. Not only outsiders, but also insiders create problems. So to remove these mines out of the way, we have this track with mine plow. One more thing is that if you see this (indicates a shape) shaped thing on top on the chassis and turret, that is the ERA - explosive reactive armor. Its purpose is, if you have a chemical energy weapon, how to protect the tank. We've made many improvements like this. The Arjun MBT mark I weight is 62 tons, mark II is 68 tons, but performance of Mark II is still better than Mark I, so we've done improvements in the mobility also.

Reporter: Ok, you've told us how you've put the best improvements in here, what else is new and improved in the Indian Army in 2015, is there something you are going to implement?
Dr. S: If you look at manned vehicles, we have Arjun Mark I and Mark II, but we are also planning for the futuristic tank. It can be the next generation main battle tank. How we are going to design and produce the next gen MBT, we've already done some feasibility studies, we've almost started development of subsystems also. So that is the future plan.

Reporter: So from your point of view, if you compare India with other countries, where do you think we've improved?
Dr. S: Good example is Arjun MBT Mark II. Today if you look around the world, for this type of tank technologies, I'm proud to say that Arjun Mark II is one of the leading ones. That shows we have good technologies, and within DRDO, CVRDE, combat vehicle development, we can do it very fast too, prime example is mark II. So definitely from tank point of view, we're definitely ahead.

7:00
Reporter: Ok, so R&D usually takes long time, but you've managed to get this done in a short time, so how do you make this a success.
Dr. S: Normally, for research, it takes some time to come to some stage. Now that we've attained that stage, from now on, we can deliver very fast. That's why I said, Arjun Mark II - 2 years, Catapult - 1 year, reason we can do all this is because we have sound basics. 

Reporter: on this republic day, special occasion, what would you like to tell the audience.
Dr. S: First thing we need from education perspective is a questioning capability (i.e.) students should ask questions. Students are all studying and getting good marks, but what is lacking compared to other countries is we lack the questioning mindset, that is the first point. Second point is that basic research is missing. Basic science research. So younger generation should concentrate more on R&D, it is very essential from country's point of view. So Kalam says that by 2020, India should become a developed country then, basic research is very important.

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## The_Sidewinder

migflug said:


> from BR
> 
> 
> Loose translation for non-Tamil speakers, by a non-native Tamil speaker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Around 0:20 - Vanakkam and welcome to the show, .... Today is republic day and on this happy day, if you're wondering where we've brought you, we're at CVRDE at Avadi, where India's defence research org is. If you are curious about exactly what is special at this place, please follow us.
> 
> 0:45 The first person we are going to meet is the Director of CVRDE, Dr. Pa. Shivakumar, we can ask him for lots of good information, come on in.
> 
> 1:15: About DRDO, you said, we need to know about it. Can you tell us a bit of information about DRDO
> Dr: Shivakumar: Well if you look at India, we have various ministries. One of the important ministries is the Defence ministry. In the ministry of Defence, we can say there are four major wings. One is Department of Production, another one is Quality Assurance, another one is all Services (i.e.) Army, Navy, Airforce etc., and the R&D wing, that is DRDO, and DRDO is headed by a Scientific Advisor to Defence Ministry, he is heading that. If you look at the main role of DRDO, it is to fulfill the requirements of all users, whether it is Army, Navy, Airforce, it has to be fulfilled. If you look at DRDO today, we have 52 labs total spread out throughout the country. Starting from the needs of the army soldier's cloth, to the nuclear sub, aircraft, missile, tank etc., whatever the user needs, all the research, development, trials, evaluation and delivery for production environment is done initially by DRDO, which is the main focus. Today, if you look at DRDO, the 54 labs, 1.78 lakhs crores amount R&D developed products are now in production, so it shows the strength of DRDO.
> 
> Around 2:45 (then she asks about the two tanks behind her, actually she asks about "the two matters")
> If you look at India, there are two main projects. One is Main Battle Tank, Arjun, another is light combat aircraft, Tejas. CVRDE is proud to be involved in both projects. MBT Arjun Mark - I, that's what you're looking at over here (on right side). This one, after all kinds of trials were finished and the user acceptance trials, we've delivered 2 regiments, almost 120 tanks, deployed to the border and operational. Army is very happy about them. After looking the the performance though, Army wanted some more improvements, because today world is improving a lot, so after you add the latest technologies, you can bring about another tank, so here we have Arjun mark II (on left side) -- this has 19 major improvements and 69 minor improvement points. So total 85 improvements together, we added on this tank (Mark I) and we made it as a MBT Mark II. The speciality is that within 2 years, we could come out with a product. So for Arjun mark I, people say we took 20 years for it, but if you look today, we are very strong, because we learnt how to do it all and so we can prove that we can do it fast, in just 2 years we produced this new tank and it is almost done with user trials and MBT Mark II, we are expecting more numbers shortly.
> 
> 4:00 Ok, so Indian Army will start using this weapon soon?
> Dr. S: definitely
> So, could you let us know about the special features of this tank (MBT mark II)
> Major thing if you look, you may have seen missiles, like ones from DRDO are surface to surface, surface to air etc. But now we have tank fired missiles, we actually proved there is such a thing on Arjun in 2004. Army said we want this for production and so one of the important capabilities of Mark II is that it can fire missiles. Besides that, there is this thing called Commanders Panoramic Sight. Tank's most important leader is the commander. He has to know what is happening with 360 degree surveillance, should be able to see at day or night, so all these improvements, we have done in the commander's panoramic sight. One more improvement is the RCWS - Remote controlled weapons system, that is the loader can sit inside and can fire at low flying targets. Besides all this, look at the front and you'll see a track with mine plow. If you look, mines are the biggest problem today for the army. Not only outsiders, but also insiders create problems. So to remove these mines out of the way, we have this track with mine plow. One more thing is that if you see this (indicates a shape) shaped thing on top on the chassis and turret, that is the ERA - explosive reactive armor. Its purpose is, if you have a chemical energy weapon, how to protect the tank. We've made many improvements like this. The Arjun MBT mark I weight is 62 tons, mark II is 68 tons, but performance of Mark II is still better than Mark I, so we've done improvements in the mobility also.
> 
> Reporter: Ok, you've told us how you've put the best improvements in here, what else is new and improved in the Indian Army in 2015, is there something you are going to implement?
> Dr. S: If you look at manned vehicles, we have Arjun Mark I and Mark II, but we are also planning for the futuristic tank. It can be the next generation main battle tank. How we are going to design and produce the next gen MBT, we've already done some feasibility studies, we've almost started development of subsystems also. So that is the future plan.
> 
> Reporter: So from your point of view, if you compare India with other countries, where do you think we've improved?
> Dr. S: Good example is Arjun MBT Mark II. Today if you look around the world, for this type of tank technologies, I'm proud to say that Arjun Mark II is one of the leading ones. That shows we have good technologies, and within DRDO, CVRDE, combat vehicle development, we can do it very fast too, prime example is mark II. So definitely from tank point of view, we're definitely ahead.
> 
> 7:00
> Reporter: Ok, so R&D usually takes long time, but you've managed to get this done in a short time, so how do you make this a success.
> Dr. S: Normally, for research, it takes some time to come to some stage. Now that we've attained that stage, from now on, we can deliver very fast. That's why I said, Arjun Mark II - 2 years, Catapult - 1 year, reason we can do all this is because we have sound basics.
> 
> Reporter: on this republic day, special occasion, what would you like to tell the audience.
> Dr. S: First thing we need from education perspective is a questioning capability (i.e.) students should ask questions. Students are all studying and getting good marks, but what is lacking compared to other countries is we lack the questioning mindset, that is the first point. Second point is that basic research is missing. Basic science research. So younger generation should concentrate more on R&D, it is very essential from country's point of view. So Kalam says that by 2020, India should become a developed country then, basic research is very important.



Thanks man. Your effort is much appreciated

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## Kurlang

Army’s fleet of Arjun tanks face technical issues
Thursday, April 30, 2015

The Army is facing major technical issues with its ‘indigenous’ Arjun tanks, as a significant proportion of its fleet has become inoperable in recent months and are non-serviceable due to continued maintenance problems.





The Army is facing major technical issues with its ‘indigenous’ Arjun tanks, as a significant proportion of its fleet has become inoperable in recent months and are non-serviceable due to continued maintenance problems.

The Army, which reluctantly inducted 124 tanks from 2009, after the UPA government insisted that a token number have to be ordered to keep the tank development programme viable, has of late been having quality problems with the fleet.
The defence minister has been apprised of the issue. Sources said that the Army’s opinion is that while a large number of tanks are not operational due to technical defects, the fleet as such is not combat worthy due to reliability issues. “*A number of tanks are not operational currently as transfer of technology (ToT) of several imported systems fitted onboard has not been done,” an Army official said.*

The *Army is surprised that quality issues *have started arising even though the entire fleet came into service as recently as 2013 when deliveries ended. Given that the tanks are highly dependent on foreign equipment — *60% of the tank is imported* — the failure to get maintenance technology means that the systems have to be sent abroad for even minor repairs.

It is believed that a meeting on the low serviceability rate of the Arjun fleet was conducted at South Block recently and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar is aware of the problems. The *Army has identified 96 problems, including 18 major ones*. The minister has been keen to increase the efficiency of existing platforms available with the military given that there is a paucity of funds to procure new systems.

In IAF, he has personally intervened to ensure that the availability rate of the Su 30 fleet improves by at least 10%. A similar approach is being taken for the Army too. DRDO is, meanwhile, working on the development of a successor in the form of the Arjun Mk II.

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## sudhir007

*ARJUN MK III Artist's Impression*

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## Echo_419

sudhir007 said:


> *ARJUN MK III Artist's Impression*



Is this from DRDO or MOD


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## sathya

Even ALH Dhruv had spares issue at the beginning ..

Arjun should also sort this out..

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## Water Car Engineer

Echo_419 said:


> Is this from DRDO or MOD




Fan art.


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## Krate M

The spares issues are being faced by all the services due to the last government. This is being addressed or has been addressed.


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## Dazzler

supposedly new apfsds roudn for Arjun, still the same penetration values i.e. 300 mm @ 2000m.. where is improvement? 







old round with same specs...

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## The_Sidewinder

Dazzler said:


> supposedly new apfsds roudn for Arjun, still the same penetration values i.e. 300 mm @ 2000m.. where is improvement?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> old round with same specs...



300 mm in 2km is no good.Better import Israeli AFSPDS.


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## Dazzler

The_Sidewinder said:


> 300 mm in 2km is no good.Better import Israeli AFSPDS.



Actually it depends upon the angle of impact. For e.g. a sabot penetrating 300mm at 60 ° is by no means bad but considering the thick frontal armour of modern mbts around the world, its not even enough. It would barely penetrate the ERA that too till the explosion occurs.

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## The_Sidewinder

Dazzler said:


> Actually it depends upon the angle of impact. For e.g. a sabot penetrating 300mm at 60 ° is by no means bad but considering the thick frontal armour of modern mbts around the world, its not even enough. It would barely penetrate the ERA that too till the explosion occurs.



Yeah 300 mm penatration is no good for todays head on engagement. Tank has to.manuver constantly to take advantage of weak sideon armour of enemy MBTs which may not be possible in most scenarios.

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
04-August, 2015 17:16 IST
*Fate of DRDO Developed Arjun Tank *

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has successfully completed project for development of Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun in March 1995, with delivery of 12 Prototypes and 15 Pre Production Series (PPS) tanks. 

Initial sanctioned cost of the project was Rs.15.50 Crore in 1974, which was revised to Rs.56.55 Crore in 1980. A realistic estimate could be done in 1987 to Rs.280.80 Crore and accordingly DRDO obtained a sanction based on firmed up General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR-467) and revised scope of the project. Finally, the project was completed in March 1995 with the total revised cost of Rs.305.60 Crore. 

*Army has floated Request for Indent (RFI) for ‘Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV)’ for a design competition to identify innovative design options which will form the base for a combat vehicle platform. It is also planned to subsequently develop other need-based variants on this platform, if found suitable. *

These platforms are to meet the futuristic requirements of the Services beyond 2027 and are not in conflict with the current MBT Arjun Programme and its future orders. 

Two Armoured Regiments of MBT Arjun Mk-I have been raised and operationalised. Out of total indented quantity of 124 Nos., 122 MBT Arjun Mk-I have been produced and inducted into Army. *Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for quantity 118 Nos. For MBT Arjun Mk-II is in place *

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Raj Babbar and Shri Vijay Jawaharlal Darda in Rajya Sabha today.


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## Hindustani78

Army for modular design concept for tanks

New Delhi: August 11, 2015, DHNS





*Indian Army will not drop its modular design concept for the next generation main battle tanks, notwithstanding the criticism from the industry.*

*The modular design, claims the Army, would allow subsequent development of 10 different variants of the tanks including light weight tanks, armoured recovery vehicles and trawls among others.
*
The Directorate-General of Mechanised Forces recently issued a request for information to the* tank designers from all over the world to participate in designing the future ready combat vehicle that seeks to replace the ageing T-72 fleet.*

Though the concept received criticism within the industry, the army defended the proposal. *“The FRCV will be a combat vehicle platform which will form the base for developing a family of vehicles,” said a statement issued by the Army.*

The RFI does not give out the detailed parameters of the FRCV. These will be given to the agencies shortlisted for the design competition. The brief description of the FRCV, given out as part of the RFI, is only to give a very rough idea of what the product is likely to be, it adds.

*Indian Army began inducting the Russian origin T-72 tanks in the late 1970s. Since most of these tanks don’t have night vision and is based on outdated technology, a search is on for advanced main battle tanks as DRDO’s Arjun is not up to the mark. *

The Indian Army currently relies on the modern T-90 tanks that came from Russia in the 1990s. *The FRCV for a design competition to identify innovative design options, which will form the base for a combat vehicle platform. It is planned to subsequently develop other need-based variants on this platform, if found suitable.*

*“These platforms are to meet the futuristic requirements of the services beyond 2027 and are not in conflict with the current MBT Arjun Programme and its future orders,” D*efence Minister Manohar Parrikar said in the Parliament.

*Two armoured regiments of MBT Arjun Mk-I have been raised and operationalised. Out of total indented quantity of 124 Arjun Mk-I tanks, as many as 122 indigenous tanks have been produced and inducted into Army.* However, these tanks are used mostly in the desert regions as the terrain in Punjab and Jammu are not suitable for using the Arjuns in an operational role. 
*The defence ministry has also agreed to procure 118 Arjun Mk-II, when it is finally ready.*
DH News Service

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## Water Car Engineer

*LASTEC has designed and developed a laser warning and countermeasure system for Armoured Fighting Vehicle (AFVs). A LWS is capable of handling multiple type of laser threats and has an operational range of more than 6 km for laser designator type of laser threat. After detecting the laser threat along with its direction, it also has the capability to generate trigger signal to activate the grenade launcher for firing of smoke grenade in the direction of laser threat to obscure the platform under threat. Technology of the LWS has been transferred to BEL, Pune.*






*The laser warning sensors detects the laser radiation processes, determine the PRF and edge matching signals. It comprises of opto-electronic front end, signal processing and conditioning, embedded module for PRF decoding, and edge matching signal.*






*The master controller receive inputs from multiple laser warning sensors, processes the information and feeds the desired commands to the decoy laser. The master controller comprises of hardware and software module to interface with the laser sensor units and the decoy laser.*






*Decoy laser is a high energy laser source that takes command from laser warning system and generate a pulsed laser radiation synchronised with the PRF generated by the laser warning system. It is used to illuminate a dummy target to misguide the laser guided bomb on to the dummy target.*


A homemade LWS has been developed. The APS is still under development.


Current Arjun Mark 2 uses an Israeli origin system.


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## masud

after seeing the DRDO,S capability not only arjun but also others home made products, i would like to see RUSSIAN T-14 ARMAT replacing the old t-72 (vishma).

I WOULD LOVE TO CALL THIS *" KARNA "..................




*


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## Echo_419

masud said:


> after seeing the DRDO,S capability not only arjun but also others home made products, i would like to see RUSSIAN T-14 ARMAT replacing the old t-72 (vishma).
> 
> I WOULD LOVE TO CALL THIS *" KARNA "..................
> 
> 
> 
> *



Better to invest in Arjun

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## masud

Echo_419 said:


> Better to invest in Arjun



*Designed* March 1974–present


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## Nilgiri

masud said:


> after seeing the DRDO,S capability not only arjun but also others home made products, i would like to see RUSSIAN T-14 ARMAT replacing the old t-72 (vishma).
> 
> I WOULD LOVE TO CALL THIS *" KARNA "..................
> 
> 
> 
> *



Better to call it Karma


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## Maarkhoor

Now seriously its time for Indian to re-think about Arjun and Tejas both failed projects even after thirty + years DRDO failed to deliver near perfect production its better to aquire off the shlef itmes instead of loosing time and money just to save the name of DRDO.


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## Echo_419

masud said:


> *Designed* March 1974–present



I still insist that we should invest in our domestic industry & focus on developing world class Industry.if we are to become a great power once again we need to start investing in our domestic Industry



VARCHASVE said:


> Now seriously its time for Indian to re-think about Arjun and Tejas both failed projects even after thirty + years DRDO failed to deliver near perfect production its better to aquire off the shlef itmes instead of loosing time and money just to save the name of DRDO.



You should refrain from commenting on matters which you know nothing off

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## Maarkhoor

Echo_419 said:


> I still insist that we should invest in our domestic industry & focus on developing world class Industry.if we are to become a great power once again we need to start investing in our domestic Industry
> 
> 
> 
> You should refrain from commenting on matters which you know nothing off


I know many thing and i know certainly Tejas and Arjun are failed projects. Truth is bitter.


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## Beta-Fighter

VARCHASVE said:


> I know many thing and i know certainly Tejas and Arjun are failed projects. Truth is bitter.


thanks for letting us know , ... now have good sleeping thinking that India inducting failed ones in the army and AF.

BTW, did you know Indian recoilless gun can blow up pak tanks, lol it happened 65...

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## Argon Prime

Beta-Fighter said:


> thanks for letting us know , ... now have good sleeping thinking that India inducting failed ones in the army and AF.
> 
> BTW, did you know Indian recoilless gun can blow up pak tanks, lol it happened 65...



Only if one could out maneuver those tanks and get to their flanks,then the rcl guns should not have much trouble,making quick work of them tanks,cause most Pakistani tanks have got little to no side armor protection.But if you go head on against those beasts,then you would become road kill.

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## Hindustani78

CVRDE Director P Sivakumar elevated as Distinguished Scientist - The Economic Times

By PTI | 19 Sep, 2015, 03.14PM IST 

CHENNAI: Director of Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, Avadi, P Sivakumar has been elevated as "Distinguished Scientist" with immediate effect by the Defence Ministry in recognition to his services. 

"Sivakumar has been promoted as Distinguished Scientist in recognition of his dedication and diligence in self-reliance effort for defence combat vehicle systems and sub-systems", an official release said. 

He was involved in development of various products, including the Arjun MBT Mark-II, Carrier Command Post Tracked Vehicle, unmanned ground vehicles. 

Sivakumar was also a fellow of National Academy of Engineering, the release said.


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## longewala

Abu Namr said:


> I know many thing and i know certainly Tejas and Arjun are failed projects. Truth is bitter.


We would prefer the glowing opinion of the Israelis and the Indian regiments / pilots using them than that of a failed state that can't even design a bicycle of its own. The truth is indeed bitter, which is why your version of the "victorious" 1965 war is so popular your side.

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## Maarkhoor

longewala said:


> We would prefer the glowing opinion of the Israelis and the Indian regiments / pilots using them than that of a failed state that can't even design a bicycle of its own. The truth is indeed bitter, which is why your version of the "victorious" 1965 war is so popular your side.








After 30 years still a sitting bird paraded on trucks...

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## Argon Prime

Abu Namr said:


> After 30 years still a sitting bird paraded on trucks...



First develop a moped on your own before showing the audacity to mock others,kiddo.

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## longewala

Abu Namr said:


> ter 30 years still a sitting bird paraded on trucks...


I could point you towards any number of videos that make a mockery of your post....
But then YouTube is banned in your jannat isn't it.
Koi na, enjoy flying the only modern warplanes that was rejected by its own country. And don't worry about tejas. Making your own plane takes time (what would you know though) but we will get there.

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## knight11

Abu Namr said:


> Now seriously its time for Indian to re-think about Arjun and Tejas both failed projects even after thirty + years DRDO failed to deliver near perfect production its better to aquire off the shlef itmes instead of loosing time and money just to save the name of DRDO.


Good and thanks for the info !!



Hindustani78 said:


> However, these tanks are used mostly in the desert regions as the terrain in Punjab and Jammu are not suitable for using the Arjuns in an operational role.


Any reason if the ground pressure is lower then what is stopping heavy weight Arjun to be suitable for punjab and jammu terrain.


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## Abingdonboy

Army recovery vehicle prototype expected by June next year: The Hindu - Mobile edition

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Army recovery vehicle prototype expected by June next year: The Hindu - Mobile edition

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## Odysseus

Abingdonboy said:


> Army recovery vehicle prototype expected by June next year: The Hindu - Mobile edition


Didn't we get some 200 ARV-3/WZT-3Ms last year?


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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


>



Any confirmed orders for this


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## Water Car Engineer

Echo_419 said:


> Any confirmed orders for this




I dont think so.


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## Perpendicular

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/658551216801054720

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## Robinhood Pandey

Perpendicular said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/658551216801054720



Finally some good news for MK2

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## Robinhood Pandey

Perpendicular said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/658551216801054720



Finally some good news for MK2


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## fsayed

Perpendicular said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/658551216801054720


Arjun mk2 is beast even our neighbours don't have comparable tank like this

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## Zarvan

fsayed said:


> Arjun mk2 is beast even our neighbours don't have comparable tank like this


Off course we have nothing to match best Tank in the world known as Arjun



fsayed said:


> Arjun mk2 is beast even our neighbours don't have comparable tank like this


Off course we have nothing to match best Tank in the world known as Arjun


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## Stephen Cohen

Perpendicular said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/658551216801054720



This news needs a new thread

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## fsayed

Zarvan said:


> Off course we have nothing to match best Tank in the world known as Arjun
> 
> 
> Off course we have nothing to match best Tank in the world known as Arjun


*India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank - Is This Comparable to The " Al-Khalid Tank"?*






After more than three decades of development, India’s Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) has literally emerged like a phoenix from the ashes, surprising even its most sceptical observers. Last year, the Arjun outgunned the Indian army’s T-72 and T-90 MBT’s, when trials were conducted with the respective units putting up their best tanks and personnel.FORCE visited the Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE) for an exclusive insight into the programme. We learnt that while the Arjun Mk-2 is substantially improved and more capable than the Arjun Mk-1; it is too heavy, limiting areas where it can be deployed by the Army. And that renders it unsuitable for the army’s operational requirements for a Main Battle Tank (MBT). According to P Sivakumar, Director CVRDE, “the weight of the Arjun prevents it from being deployed in all the areas required by the Army”.Keeping this in mind, the Arjun Mk-2’s improved performance seems to have put the Army in a spot. What does one do with a tank that is fast, can shoot accurately on the move and is relatively well protected but is too heavy to be deployed in the deserts near the Pakistan border as a replacement for the T-72 or T-90? Paradoxically, while the tank itself has demonstrated high speed and mobility, its weight precludes it from being able to operate anywhere the army wants it to. The Arjun Mk-2 will weigh around 67 tonnes and this fatally limits the tank’s operational effectiveness for the Indian Army.The tank is too heavy to be deployed across the border with Pakistan. It is unable to effectively traverse terrain filled with natural and/or artificial obstacles. Or areas criss-crossed with rivers and canals. That rules out most places in Rajasthan, Punjab and the mountainous terrain of the J&K sector.




This has forced the army to identify areas where the Arjun can safely be deployed and its operational units based. This probably means the Arjun will not fight alongside the T-90s and T-72s. It will certainly not be part of the Indian Army’s strike corps formations, as it could get bogged down in unfamiliar terrain. This runs counter to the philosophy of armoured formations, which are designed for mobile offensive operations deep inside enemy territory. Unlike the T series tanks that have been airlifted to high altitudes like Leh and even out of the country, the Arjun cannot be airlifted by the IL-76 and C-130 J transports of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The C-17 Globemaster to be inducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) has a maximum payload of 75 tonnes — insufficient to airlift the 67 tonne Arjun Mk-2 with attendant support equipment. 
During this correspondent’s visit to the CVRDE facility at Avadi in Tamil Nadu, it was evident that despite the best efforts of its highly committed team of designers and scientists, the Arjun isunlikely to ever be ordered in significant quantities by the Indian Army — which fields close to 3,500 tanks in its Order of Battle (ORBAT). The total orders for the Arjun as of today are 240 (124 Mk-1 and 116 Mk-2). For the Army, ordering more tanks would result in it having to devote more resources — something it seems loath to do. 
As things stand presently, the first Arjun Mk-2 will roll off the production line at Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi, two and a half years (30 months) after the order is placed. With the orders likely to be finalized towards the end of the year, the first Mk-2 tank will enter operational service in 2016. With HVF Avadi looking at a production rate of 30 tanks a year, all 116 tanks will be delivered by 2020. If work on the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) begins now in right earnest, then the first tanks could be ready for operational service circa 2025. Until then, the army would rather soldier on with its T-90 and upgraded T-72 tanks, which in any case have the required infrastructure in terms of training, manufacture and overhaul.



The major improvement in the Arjun Mk-2, is its missile firing capability from the gun barrel. This was demonstrated in 2004, with Israel Aerospace Industries’ (IAI’s) Laser Homing Attack/Anti Tank Missile (LAHAT). But the tank did not have an integrated Laser Target Tracker (LTT) at that point of time. That is now in the final stages of inspection and is being demonstrated to the user. The army has also asked for more types of ammunition on the Mk-2. This includes Thermobaric rounds and Penetration cum Blast rounds that will be developed in India. Thermobaric warheads create a sustained and intense pressure wave, which can be used against bunkers and hardened targets, while causing minimum damage to the surrounding areas. The army has also asked for two types of practice rounds, including blank rounds for ceremonial purposes. These will also reduce wear and tear on the barrel during training. In terms of protection, the Mk-2 will have full frontal Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) and since commonality was desirable, it will use the same structuring as the T-series. The Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) is re-developing the explosive element, which is currently Russian, with better protection capability. It is being developed at the High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL). This will be used for the Arjun, T-90 and T-72 tanks. Active Protection Systems(APS) that help evade attack — both by confusing enemy sensors (soft-kill) or by physically destroying incoming warheads (hard-kill) — will also be incorporated on the Mk-2. 
The Israeli ‘Trophy’ system is being considered for the Mk-2. There will also be a mine plough to deal with pressure based mines, magnetic mines and tilt based mines. The driver’s seat on the Mk-2 is now suspended from the roof, compared to being fixed to the floor on the Mk-1 — this provides better mine protection capability. With the Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) and mine plough together weighing 3 tonnes and additional add-ons expected, the MK-2s weight is expected to increase from 62 tonne to 67 tonne. The suspension has been re-designed to handle 70 tonne. To cater to complaints of track shedding, the revised tracks will have an increased horn length (19 mm) and the wheels have become slightly bigger. The tracks are imported from Germany but the rest is indigenous. The engine will remain the same on the Mk-2. With the original power pack on the Mk-1, the final drive catered to a top speed of 72 kmph. For the Mk-2, the final drive has been changed by increasing the reduction ratio from 4.4 to 5.3 and the top speed is now reduced 58.5 kmph but the torque and the force available at the contact between the track and the road has increased which can cater for the increased weight. Despite the increased weight, CVRDE claims that the acceleration is better than the Mk-1, while fuel efficiency remains the same. 
The Arjun Mk-2 programme also suffered a severe setback with the unfortunate demise of senior scientist G K Kumaravel a few months ago. Kumaravel died in a road accident, while at Pokhran for trials of the Arjun Mk-2. He was heading the Arjun programme and slated to take over as Director, CVRDE in the future. He had played a crucial role in the developments and system integration of the Arjun MBT Mk II. The Arjun programme will now be led by V Balamurugan. The biggest problem being faced by the Arjun and a fate that is shared by almost all other indigenous programmes, is the small numbers ordered — that precludes investment in the required production and tooling. Sivakumar told FORCE that “Greater numbers are essential for reducing the price, establishing the process, good quality control mechanisms and continuous consistency in production”. This is also the reason he says that orders are a must. The Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) has not been producing Arjun MBT’s for two years and lot of the know-how is being lost. 
While officials at CVRDE say the Army has been happy with the performance of the Mk-1, FORCE learnt that non-availability of spares is a continuing problem — the usage of spares was greater than anticipated. There have been complaints of track shedding, though CVRDE officials say that’s caused by inexperienced drivers who’re used to the T-72 and T-90. The 120 mm tank gun has been proved on the Mk-1 series and today, the Arjun barrel offers better life when compared to the T series of tanks. There have been barrel issues on a few tanks and a committee is looking into the matter, according to CVRDE officials. 
The process of obtaining replacement spares is time consuming, since there are a number of agencies involved. Limited production numbers further exacerbate the problem. Director Sivakumar told FORCE that steps were being taken to tackle this problem and “unlike the Mk-1, where orders for the tank and the Engineering Support Package (ESP) were handled separately, in the Arjun Mk-2 this will be done simultaneously. That will reduce the time taken for delivery of the required items”. According to him, production has improved dramatically and an Israeli firm is now working on computerization of the line. 
Meanwhile, the Indian Army is struggling to maintain its ageing fleet of T-72 MBT’s. While the T-72 was acknowledged to be one of the finest Russian tank designs, the ageing tank fleet is now increasingly difficult to maintain. Its small size and cramped turret make it difficult to incorporate the latest technology — like fire control systems, night vision and electronics. Unfortunately for the Army, the T-90 has not proved to be as sterling a performer as its predecessor. A number of glitches have come to the fore and production at HVF has been slow to take off. Russia has also refused to transfer technology related to metallurgy for T-90S gun barrels and armour plates to the HVF.

Despite all that, the Arjun outgunning the T-90 and T-72 in comparative trials, is akin to the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas’, defeating the F-16 in a dogfight! The units that took part in the competition put up their best tanks and crew. The Arjun managed to fare very well. Army sources have freely admitted to FORCE, that there is a mind block with regard to the Arjun, by those who have operated the T series tanks. But they also admit that the Arjun is appreciably more modern in comparison to the T-72 & T-90, in many respects. For example, the Arjun can fire almost twice the number of rounds the T series tanks can, from its main gun.

The Arjun Mk-2 in many ways is what the Arjun Mk-1 should probably have been. Tragically, total orders for the Arjun over the next decade are unlikely to exceed 400 to 500 units including the 240 already ordered, plus other variants like the Armoured Repair and Recovery Vehicle (ARRV), Catapult 130 mm Self Propelled Gun and SP-155 gun chassis. The last refers to a tracked base that was to be mated with a Slovakian gun, in collaboration with Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML). That proposal has already run into rough weather. It remains to be seen if the army will accept such indigenous offerings or prefer to go abroad for proven systems, which can be inducted quickly and in meaningful numbers, to arrest the alarming decline in its armoured and artillery capability. 
What is however clear is that continued production and development of the Arjun must be allowed to continue, if critical design, development and production know-how is not to be frittered away. It is also essential to keep the production line functional — through manufacture, repair, overhaul and upgrades, till the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) programme begins to gather steam. Keeping this in mind, it is likely that the DRDO will be able to prevail on the army for a few more orders, to enable low-rate production to continue. It is imperative that the DRDO and the Army move faster on the FMBT programme, to ensure that it is ready in time to replace the T-72. 
In all, the army’s armour profile through 2015-2020 could comprise of approximately 1700 T-90S, 1800-2000 upgraded T-72M1s, and 250-500 Arjun’s. Surely, prospective orders for the FMBT, which at the very least would be for 1000-1500 tanks, are incentive enough for this to be taken up as a national project. This futuristic tank is unlikely to cost less than Rs 50 crore a piece — the total orders would be worth Rs 50,000 to 75,000 crore.

_Fists of Iron: India's_ *Future Main Battle Tank*



The quest to indigenously design and develop a Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), must be accorded the status of a national project, if it is to succeed. The prize could be a minimum order of at least a thousand tanks, to replace the Indian Army’s T-72 tanks, starting 2022.

It is more likely that the FMBT will be ready only around 2025. DRDO will require at least a decade to have the first examples ready for trials and then roll out production variants a few years later. While the estimated development cost of Rs 5,000 crore might seem large, the investment would pay itself back many times over. An order for 1000 FMBT’s would be worth Rs 50,000 crore (Rs 50 crore per piece) over two to three decades. It would boost indigenous Tier-1 and Tier-2 industries involved in the programme.

The FMBT at present is expected to be a highly mobile Main Battle Tank (MBT) in the 50-55 tonne class. It would have the latest technology, like advanced materials to keep the weight down, a smooth bore 120 mm main gun capable of firing missiles and advanced munitions, a modern, high powered engine (1800 hp) with state of the art transmission, suspension and running gear. It will incorporate a high level of crew protection, through use of next-generation Active Protection Systems (APS) to supplement its armour protection. It will also provide a high level of situational awareness to the crew through sensors, data links and the ability to operate in a networked battlefield.

While the Army has asked CVRDE to refrain from talking about the programme, work has already begun on the engine development — a good sign for the programme. Interestingly, companies like Renk and AVL have refused to provide consultancy for engine development. The development of the 120 mm smooth bore main gun will also provide its own challenges, in terms of design and weight. Keeping in mind the Israeli involvement in the Arjun programme, it is very likely that Israeli companies will play a vital role in the development of the FMBT.

CVRDE has gained considerable experience in tank design and development with the Arjun and Arjun MK-2 upgrade. Designing a 50 tonne tank with the features demanded by the Army, will be an extremely difficult task. However many of the parts of the FMBT are likely to be indigenous — such as the power pack, suspension and running gear, 120 mm smooth bore main gun, explosive reactive armour (ERA) panels, communication and data link sets. Facilities would have been set up by then for either joint production, or license manufacture of night sights, targeting and fire control systems etc.

*INTERVIEW WITH Director, CVRDE, Dr Sivakumar
‘At Present, the Army has Decided to Induct 118 Arjun Mk-2 Tanks Instead of 124’What is the status of the Arjun Mk-2 programme currently?*
The Arjun Mk-1 with a total of 89 improvements decided upon with the Army, is called the Arjun Mk-2. These 89 improvements have been made not only keeping in mind the concerns and issues faced on the Arjun Mk-1 tank but also to cater for future requirements of the army. At present, the army has decided to induct 118 Arjun Mk-2 tanks instead of 124. This is the result of a policy decision that will see the war reserve for all armoured regiments in the future being reduced by three. And so, two regiments of Arjun Mk-2 will be short of six reserve tanks. The indent for 118 tanks is almost in the final stage. The army has said that it will decide if it is satisfied with the Arjun Mk-2, only after the trials (which began last month and are expected to go on for two to three months) are completed. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) will require 30 months (2.5 years) from the placement of the order, for the first batch of Arjun Mk-2 to be delivered to the army. The Mk-2 will incorporate all that we learnt while battling issues with the Arjun Mk-1, in terms of production, performance, quality etc. CVRDE is working to ensure that whatever problems were faced by the Mk-1 will not be repeated in the Mk-2. Based on the Mk-2 programme, we have formed a core committee called the Arjun Core Committee that will monitor the progress of the Arjun Mk-2 on a monthly basis. All the stakeholders starting from the DRDO, the Directorate General of Quality Assurance (DGQA), the Corps of Electronics & Mechanical Engineers (EME) and the users, are present on the committee and we have obtained excellent support from all the stakeholders.

*What are the major changes in the Arjun Mk-2?*The Arjun Mk-2 will see the tank weight increase from 62 to 67 tonnes, as a result of specific requirements from the user — which include additions such as the track width, mine plough and Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) on the glacis plate, as well as the front of the turret. These two requirements alone will add three tonnes to the weight of the Arjun Mk-1. Along with other additions, the Mk-2 is expected to top out at 67 tonnes. We decided after studying the power pack (MTU engine with RENK transmission), that it is excellently suited for Indian desert conditions. We have steadily made this engine and transmission more and more rugged over the last many years, besides improving things like the air filtration system and cooling system. Hence, we have convinced the user that the same power pack, with a new final drive using a higher reduction ratio, can be used for the Arjun Mk-2. This was proved to the Army last year, when we drove 1350 km with the power pack modified to this standard and simulated weights of up to 66 tonne. We converted production vehicle P-1 into Mk-2 with 53 improvements, to obtain feedback. This tank took part in an exercise last summer that lasted almost two weeks, with temperatures of 46 degrees. We have improved the suspension — to provide the same life to components despite the increase in weight. To cater for this new suspension, we have developed a new hull for the Arjun Mk-2.

The Mk-2 variant is now capable of firing missiles, which was not possible in the Mk-1. We had already proved the LAHAT missile as a standby. We are now integrating it on the Mk-2. Apart from that, the Mk-2 will feature a remote controlled weapon system atop the turret. In Mk-1, this required the loader to come out and fire the weapon. The Mk-2 will have an improved commander’s panoramic sight with night vision, hunter killer capability between the commander, gunner and loader. Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) which is not present in T series tank is present. It has been enhanced from 4.5 kW to in excess of 8 kW for the Mk-2. With regards to the Chassis Automotive System, we have digital communication systems, advanced navigation systems etc. We have increased the track width, to ensure that the ground pressure remains the same in spite of the increased weight.

*What is the status of the Arjun Mk-1 at present?*The Arjun Mk-1 received orders for a total of 124 numbers. The two regiments equipped with 45 Arjun tanks each, are the 43rd armoured regiment and the 75th armoured regiment at Jaisalmer. The Arjun is fully operational with these two regiments now. The balance 34 tanks will be used to meet the Army’s BRIC requirements and these are spread across the Corps of Electronics & Mechanical Engineers (EME), war reserve, training establishments, DRDO/DGQA etc. Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi has dispatched 116 Arjun Mk-1 tanks. The remaining eight tanks will be delivered over the next five to six months. Most of the spares for the Arjun MBT were consumed during the various trials. We are now working to ensure availability of fresh spares. The other part is the Engineering Support Package (ESP) for the Arjun which includes spares, training and training aids. This is being done in parallel. As far the Arjun Mk-1 is concerned, about 90 percent of its tasks are complete.

*What is the cost of the programme till date?*Each Arjun Mk-1 costs Rs 20 crore plus. Each Arjun Mk-2 with all improvements will cost approximately Rs 34 crore. The Arjun Mk-1 programme cost approximately Rs 360 crores. With that money, we made 11 prototypes and 15 pre-production series tanks and the required spares. This included the cost of creating the production line. We are looking at a number of variants based on the Arjun platform, such as Armoured Repair and Recovery Vehicle (ARRV) which is close to finalization. We are also looking to use the Arjun chassis to mount a Russian 130 mm Catapult gun, which was earlier mounted on the Vijayanta chassis. We will also be competing for the Indian Army requirement for a self propelled, tracked gun. We will offer a Slovakian 155 mm gun mounted on the Arjun along with Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML). We have also built the Arjun Bridge Laying Tank (BLT) but the Army says it may not be required. The cost per tank will certainly go down if we get more orders. This will help reduce the import content as well. The Mk-1 has nearly 60 percent imported content and even though there is a lot of value addition being done, the import content will remain the same for the Mk-2. Since the size of the order is small, no foreign company is willing to offer Transfer of Technology (ToT). I feel that if the Mk-2 is ordered by four regiments, then the import content could go down to 43 per cent and further down to 25 per cent if orders are placed for a total of six regiments. The lifecycle costs of the Arjun will be much cheaper than other tanks. The programme has also been able to offer numerous improvements to a number of indigenous programmes and armoured vehicles in service with the army.

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## Nilgiri

Arjun is basically India's Leopard II. Time to get on with producing and incorporating it in the armed forces.

Can't wait to see some pics of this first batch of Arjun II in operation!


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## Zarvan

fsayed said:


> *India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank - Is This Comparable to The " Al-Khalid Tank"?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After more than three decades of development, India’s Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) has literally emerged like a phoenix from the ashes, surprising even its most sceptical observers. Last year, the Arjun outgunned the Indian army’s T-72 and T-90 MBT’s, when trials were conducted with the respective units putting up their best tanks and personnel.FORCE visited the Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE) for an exclusive insight into the programme. We learnt that while the Arjun Mk-2 is substantially improved and more capable than the Arjun Mk-1; it is too heavy, limiting areas where it can be deployed by the Army. And that renders it unsuitable for the army’s operational requirements for a Main Battle Tank (MBT). According to P Sivakumar, Director CVRDE, “the weight of the Arjun prevents it from being deployed in all the areas required by the Army”.Keeping this in mind, the Arjun Mk-2’s improved performance seems to have put the Army in a spot. What does one do with a tank that is fast, can shoot accurately on the move and is relatively well protected but is too heavy to be deployed in the deserts near the Pakistan border as a replacement for the T-72 or T-90? Paradoxically, while the tank itself has demonstrated high speed and mobility, its weight precludes it from being able to operate anywhere the army wants it to. The Arjun Mk-2 will weigh around 67 tonnes and this fatally limits the tank’s operational effectiveness for the Indian Army.The tank is too heavy to be deployed across the border with Pakistan. It is unable to effectively traverse terrain filled with natural and/or artificial obstacles. Or areas criss-crossed with rivers and canals. That rules out most places in Rajasthan, Punjab and the mountainous terrain of the J&K sector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has forced the army to identify areas where the Arjun can safely be deployed and its operational units based. This probably means the Arjun will not fight alongside the T-90s and T-72s. It will certainly not be part of the Indian Army’s strike corps formations, as it could get bogged down in unfamiliar terrain. This runs counter to the philosophy of armoured formations, which are designed for mobile offensive operations deep inside enemy territory. Unlike the T series tanks that have been airlifted to high altitudes like Leh and even out of the country, the Arjun cannot be airlifted by the IL-76 and C-130 J transports of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The C-17 Globemaster to be inducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) has a maximum payload of 75 tonnes — insufficient to airlift the 67 tonne Arjun Mk-2 with attendant support equipment.
> During this correspondent’s visit to the CVRDE facility at Avadi in Tamil Nadu, it was evident that despite the best efforts of its highly committed team of designers and scientists, the Arjun isunlikely to ever be ordered in significant quantities by the Indian Army — which fields close to 3,500 tanks in its Order of Battle (ORBAT). The total orders for the Arjun as of today are 240 (124 Mk-1 and 116 Mk-2). For the Army, ordering more tanks would result in it having to devote more resources — something it seems loath to do.
> As things stand presently, the first Arjun Mk-2 will roll off the production line at Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi, two and a half years (30 months) after the order is placed. With the orders likely to be finalized towards the end of the year, the first Mk-2 tank will enter operational service in 2016. With HVF Avadi looking at a production rate of 30 tanks a year, all 116 tanks will be delivered by 2020. If work on the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) begins now in right earnest, then the first tanks could be ready for operational service circa 2025. Until then, the army would rather soldier on with its T-90 and upgraded T-72 tanks, which in any case have the required infrastructure in terms of training, manufacture and overhaul.
> 
> 
> 
> The major improvement in the Arjun Mk-2, is its missile firing capability from the gun barrel. This was demonstrated in 2004, with Israel Aerospace Industries’ (IAI’s) Laser Homing Attack/Anti Tank Missile (LAHAT). But the tank did not have an integrated Laser Target Tracker (LTT) at that point of time. That is now in the final stages of inspection and is being demonstrated to the user. The army has also asked for more types of ammunition on the Mk-2. This includes Thermobaric rounds and Penetration cum Blast rounds that will be developed in India. Thermobaric warheads create a sustained and intense pressure wave, which can be used against bunkers and hardened targets, while causing minimum damage to the surrounding areas. The army has also asked for two types of practice rounds, including blank rounds for ceremonial purposes. These will also reduce wear and tear on the barrel during training. In terms of protection, the Mk-2 will have full frontal Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) and since commonality was desirable, it will use the same structuring as the T-series. The Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) is re-developing the explosive element, which is currently Russian, with better protection capability. It is being developed at the High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL). This will be used for the Arjun, T-90 and T-72 tanks. Active Protection Systems(APS) that help evade attack — both by confusing enemy sensors (soft-kill) or by physically destroying incoming warheads (hard-kill) — will also be incorporated on the Mk-2.
> The Israeli ‘Trophy’ system is being considered for the Mk-2. There will also be a mine plough to deal with pressure based mines, magnetic mines and tilt based mines. The driver’s seat on the Mk-2 is now suspended from the roof, compared to being fixed to the floor on the Mk-1 — this provides better mine protection capability. With the Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) and mine plough together weighing 3 tonnes and additional add-ons expected, the MK-2s weight is expected to increase from 62 tonne to 67 tonne. The suspension has been re-designed to handle 70 tonne. To cater to complaints of track shedding, the revised tracks will have an increased horn length (19 mm) and the wheels have become slightly bigger. The tracks are imported from Germany but the rest is indigenous. The engine will remain the same on the Mk-2. With the original power pack on the Mk-1, the final drive catered to a top speed of 72 kmph. For the Mk-2, the final drive has been changed by increasing the reduction ratio from 4.4 to 5.3 and the top speed is now reduced 58.5 kmph but the torque and the force available at the contact between the track and the road has increased which can cater for the increased weight. Despite the increased weight, CVRDE claims that the acceleration is better than the Mk-1, while fuel efficiency remains the same.
> The Arjun Mk-2 programme also suffered a severe setback with the unfortunate demise of senior scientist G K Kumaravel a few months ago. Kumaravel died in a road accident, while at Pokhran for trials of the Arjun Mk-2. He was heading the Arjun programme and slated to take over as Director, CVRDE in the future. He had played a crucial role in the developments and system integration of the Arjun MBT Mk II. The Arjun programme will now be led by V Balamurugan. The biggest problem being faced by the Arjun and a fate that is shared by almost all other indigenous programmes, is the small numbers ordered — that precludes investment in the required production and tooling. Sivakumar told FORCE that “Greater numbers are essential for reducing the price, establishing the process, good quality control mechanisms and continuous consistency in production”. This is also the reason he says that orders are a must. The Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) has not been producing Arjun MBT’s for two years and lot of the know-how is being lost.
> While officials at CVRDE say the Army has been happy with the performance of the Mk-1, FORCE learnt that non-availability of spares is a continuing problem — the usage of spares was greater than anticipated. There have been complaints of track shedding, though CVRDE officials say that’s caused by inexperienced drivers who’re used to the T-72 and T-90. The 120 mm tank gun has been proved on the Mk-1 series and today, the Arjun barrel offers better life when compared to the T series of tanks. There have been barrel issues on a few tanks and a committee is looking into the matter, according to CVRDE officials.
> The process of obtaining replacement spares is time consuming, since there are a number of agencies involved. Limited production numbers further exacerbate the problem. Director Sivakumar told FORCE that steps were being taken to tackle this problem and “unlike the Mk-1, where orders for the tank and the Engineering Support Package (ESP) were handled separately, in the Arjun Mk-2 this will be done simultaneously. That will reduce the time taken for delivery of the required items”. According to him, production has improved dramatically and an Israeli firm is now working on computerization of the line.
> Meanwhile, the Indian Army is struggling to maintain its ageing fleet of T-72 MBT’s. While the T-72 was acknowledged to be one of the finest Russian tank designs, the ageing tank fleet is now increasingly difficult to maintain. Its small size and cramped turret make it difficult to incorporate the latest technology — like fire control systems, night vision and electronics. Unfortunately for the Army, the T-90 has not proved to be as sterling a performer as its predecessor. A number of glitches have come to the fore and production at HVF has been slow to take off. Russia has also refused to transfer technology related to metallurgy for T-90S gun barrels and armour plates to the HVF.
> 
> Despite all that, the Arjun outgunning the T-90 and T-72 in comparative trials, is akin to the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas’, defeating the F-16 in a dogfight! The units that took part in the competition put up their best tanks and crew. The Arjun managed to fare very well. Army sources have freely admitted to FORCE, that there is a mind block with regard to the Arjun, by those who have operated the T series tanks. But they also admit that the Arjun is appreciably more modern in comparison to the T-72 & T-90, in many respects. For example, the Arjun can fire almost twice the number of rounds the T series tanks can, from its main gun.
> 
> The Arjun Mk-2 in many ways is what the Arjun Mk-1 should probably have been. Tragically, total orders for the Arjun over the next decade are unlikely to exceed 400 to 500 units including the 240 already ordered, plus other variants like the Armoured Repair and Recovery Vehicle (ARRV), Catapult 130 mm Self Propelled Gun and SP-155 gun chassis. The last refers to a tracked base that was to be mated with a Slovakian gun, in collaboration with Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML). That proposal has already run into rough weather. It remains to be seen if the army will accept such indigenous offerings or prefer to go abroad for proven systems, which can be inducted quickly and in meaningful numbers, to arrest the alarming decline in its armoured and artillery capability.
> What is however clear is that continued production and development of the Arjun must be allowed to continue, if critical design, development and production know-how is not to be frittered away. It is also essential to keep the production line functional — through manufacture, repair, overhaul and upgrades, till the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) programme begins to gather steam. Keeping this in mind, it is likely that the DRDO will be able to prevail on the army for a few more orders, to enable low-rate production to continue. It is imperative that the DRDO and the Army move faster on the FMBT programme, to ensure that it is ready in time to replace the T-72.
> In all, the army’s armour profile through 2015-2020 could comprise of approximately 1700 T-90S, 1800-2000 upgraded T-72M1s, and 250-500 Arjun’s. Surely, prospective orders for the FMBT, which at the very least would be for 1000-1500 tanks, are incentive enough for this to be taken up as a national project. This futuristic tank is unlikely to cost less than Rs 50 crore a piece — the total orders would be worth Rs 50,000 to 75,000 crore.
> 
> _Fists of Iron: India's_ *Future Main Battle Tank*
> 
> 
> 
> The quest to indigenously design and develop a Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), must be accorded the status of a national project, if it is to succeed. The prize could be a minimum order of at least a thousand tanks, to replace the Indian Army’s T-72 tanks, starting 2022.
> 
> It is more likely that the FMBT will be ready only around 2025. DRDO will require at least a decade to have the first examples ready for trials and then roll out production variants a few years later. While the estimated development cost of Rs 5,000 crore might seem large, the investment would pay itself back many times over. An order for 1000 FMBT’s would be worth Rs 50,000 crore (Rs 50 crore per piece) over two to three decades. It would boost indigenous Tier-1 and Tier-2 industries involved in the programme.
> 
> The FMBT at present is expected to be a highly mobile Main Battle Tank (MBT) in the 50-55 tonne class. It would have the latest technology, like advanced materials to keep the weight down, a smooth bore 120 mm main gun capable of firing missiles and advanced munitions, a modern, high powered engine (1800 hp) with state of the art transmission, suspension and running gear. It will incorporate a high level of crew protection, through use of next-generation Active Protection Systems (APS) to supplement its armour protection. It will also provide a high level of situational awareness to the crew through sensors, data links and the ability to operate in a networked battlefield.
> 
> While the Army has asked CVRDE to refrain from talking about the programme, work has already begun on the engine development — a good sign for the programme. Interestingly, companies like Renk and AVL have refused to provide consultancy for engine development. The development of the 120 mm smooth bore main gun will also provide its own challenges, in terms of design and weight. Keeping in mind the Israeli involvement in the Arjun programme, it is very likely that Israeli companies will play a vital role in the development of the FMBT.
> 
> CVRDE has gained considerable experience in tank design and development with the Arjun and Arjun MK-2 upgrade. Designing a 50 tonne tank with the features demanded by the Army, will be an extremely difficult task. However many of the parts of the FMBT are likely to be indigenous — such as the power pack, suspension and running gear, 120 mm smooth bore main gun, explosive reactive armour (ERA) panels, communication and data link sets. Facilities would have been set up by then for either joint production, or license manufacture of night sights, targeting and fire control systems etc.
> 
> *INTERVIEW WITH Director, CVRDE, Dr Sivakumar
> ‘At Present, the Army has Decided to Induct 118 Arjun Mk-2 Tanks Instead of 124’What is the status of the Arjun Mk-2 programme currently?*
> The Arjun Mk-1 with a total of 89 improvements decided upon with the Army, is called the Arjun Mk-2. These 89 improvements have been made not only keeping in mind the concerns and issues faced on the Arjun Mk-1 tank but also to cater for future requirements of the army. At present, the army has decided to induct 118 Arjun Mk-2 tanks instead of 124. This is the result of a policy decision that will see the war reserve for all armoured regiments in the future being reduced by three. And so, two regiments of Arjun Mk-2 will be short of six reserve tanks. The indent for 118 tanks is almost in the final stage. The army has said that it will decide if it is satisfied with the Arjun Mk-2, only after the trials (which began last month and are expected to go on for two to three months) are completed. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) will require 30 months (2.5 years) from the placement of the order, for the first batch of Arjun Mk-2 to be delivered to the army. The Mk-2 will incorporate all that we learnt while battling issues with the Arjun Mk-1, in terms of production, performance, quality etc. CVRDE is working to ensure that whatever problems were faced by the Mk-1 will not be repeated in the Mk-2. Based on the Mk-2 programme, we have formed a core committee called the Arjun Core Committee that will monitor the progress of the Arjun Mk-2 on a monthly basis. All the stakeholders starting from the DRDO, the Directorate General of Quality Assurance (DGQA), the Corps of Electronics & Mechanical Engineers (EME) and the users, are present on the committee and we have obtained excellent support from all the stakeholders.
> 
> *What are the major changes in the Arjun Mk-2?*The Arjun Mk-2 will see the tank weight increase from 62 to 67 tonnes, as a result of specific requirements from the user — which include additions such as the track width, mine plough and Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) on the glacis plate, as well as the front of the turret. These two requirements alone will add three tonnes to the weight of the Arjun Mk-1. Along with other additions, the Mk-2 is expected to top out at 67 tonnes. We decided after studying the power pack (MTU engine with RENK transmission), that it is excellently suited for Indian desert conditions. We have steadily made this engine and transmission more and more rugged over the last many years, besides improving things like the air filtration system and cooling system. Hence, we have convinced the user that the same power pack, with a new final drive using a higher reduction ratio, can be used for the Arjun Mk-2. This was proved to the Army last year, when we drove 1350 km with the power pack modified to this standard and simulated weights of up to 66 tonne. We converted production vehicle P-1 into Mk-2 with 53 improvements, to obtain feedback. This tank took part in an exercise last summer that lasted almost two weeks, with temperatures of 46 degrees. We have improved the suspension — to provide the same life to components despite the increase in weight. To cater for this new suspension, we have developed a new hull for the Arjun Mk-2.
> 
> The Mk-2 variant is now capable of firing missiles, which was not possible in the Mk-1. We had already proved the LAHAT missile as a standby. We are now integrating it on the Mk-2. Apart from that, the Mk-2 will feature a remote controlled weapon system atop the turret. In Mk-1, this required the loader to come out and fire the weapon. The Mk-2 will have an improved commander’s panoramic sight with night vision, hunter killer capability between the commander, gunner and loader. Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) which is not present in T series tank is present. It has been enhanced from 4.5 kW to in excess of 8 kW for the Mk-2. With regards to the Chassis Automotive System, we have digital communication systems, advanced navigation systems etc. We have increased the track width, to ensure that the ground pressure remains the same in spite of the increased weight.
> 
> *What is the status of the Arjun Mk-1 at present?*The Arjun Mk-1 received orders for a total of 124 numbers. The two regiments equipped with 45 Arjun tanks each, are the 43rd armoured regiment and the 75th armoured regiment at Jaisalmer. The Arjun is fully operational with these two regiments now. The balance 34 tanks will be used to meet the Army’s BRIC requirements and these are spread across the Corps of Electronics & Mechanical Engineers (EME), war reserve, training establishments, DRDO/DGQA etc. Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi has dispatched 116 Arjun Mk-1 tanks. The remaining eight tanks will be delivered over the next five to six months. Most of the spares for the Arjun MBT were consumed during the various trials. We are now working to ensure availability of fresh spares. The other part is the Engineering Support Package (ESP) for the Arjun which includes spares, training and training aids. This is being done in parallel. As far the Arjun Mk-1 is concerned, about 90 percent of its tasks are complete.
> 
> *What is the cost of the programme till date?*Each Arjun Mk-1 costs Rs 20 crore plus. Each Arjun Mk-2 with all improvements will cost approximately Rs 34 crore. The Arjun Mk-1 programme cost approximately Rs 360 crores. With that money, we made 11 prototypes and 15 pre-production series tanks and the required spares. This included the cost of creating the production line. We are looking at a number of variants based on the Arjun platform, such as Armoured Repair and Recovery Vehicle (ARRV) which is close to finalization. We are also looking to use the Arjun chassis to mount a Russian 130 mm Catapult gun, which was earlier mounted on the Vijayanta chassis. We will also be competing for the Indian Army requirement for a self propelled, tracked gun. We will offer a Slovakian 155 mm gun mounted on the Arjun along with Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML). We have also built the Arjun Bridge Laying Tank (BLT) but the Army says it may not be required. The cost per tank will certainly go down if we get more orders. This will help reduce the import content as well. The Mk-1 has nearly 60 percent imported content and even though there is a lot of value addition being done, the import content will remain the same for the Mk-2. Since the size of the order is small, no foreign company is willing to offer Transfer of Technology (ToT). I feel that if the Mk-2 is ordered by four regiments, then the import content could go down to 43 per cent and further down to 25 per cent if orders are placed for a total of six regiments. The lifecycle costs of the Arjun will be much cheaper than other tanks. The programme has also been able to offer numerous improvements to a number of indigenous programmes and armoured vehicles in service with the army.


Not just AL KHALID mighty Arjun is way ahead if compared to Abram or Leopard2A7 and Lecrec


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## fsayed

Zarvan said:


> Not just AL KHALID mighty Arjun is way ahead if compared to Abram or Leopard2A7 and Lecrec


atleast u acknowledge facts

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## Echo_419

Ifrit said:


> I know many thing and i know certainly Tejas and Arjun are failed projects. Truth is bitter.



Believe what you want dude


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## Water Car Engineer

*Arjun tank along with T72s transported by rail*


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## FunkyGen

fsayed said:


> atleast u acknowledge facts


Damn Indian manufactures some damn nice facts, can we have tot... please?



Zarvan said:


> Not just AL KHALID mighty Arjun is way ahead if compared to Abram or Leopard2A7 and Lecrec


Is it a bird...? is it a truck loaded plane...? It's AaaaaRRRRJUNNNNN... 
On a serious note... took indians some time but hope this time they are getting somewhere... damn tired hearing about arjun and LCA...

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## knight11

Zarvan said:


> Not just AL KHALID mighty Arjun is way ahead if compared to Abram or Leopard2A7 and Lecrec









DRDO Tech Focus: Indigenous Technologies and Sub-systems for Armoured Fighting Vehicles

Large orders can make Arjun tank cheaper

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90


Upcoming modifications on the Arjun Mark II

Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun

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## vsdave2302

Zarvan said:


> Off course we have nothing to match best Tank in the world known as Arjun
> 
> 
> Off course we have nothing to match best Tank in the world known as Arjun


 

At least you do not have.


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## Zarvan

vsdave2302 said:


> At least you do not have.


Off course we have nothing not only we even USA and Germany don't have anything good or dependable against mighty Arjun Tank. ALL HAIL mighty ARJUN.


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## Bornubus

Simulators for Arjun Crew

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## Bharat_Bhakt

Zarvan said:


> Off course we have nothing not only we even USA and Germany don't have anything good or dependable against mighty Arjun Tank. ALL HAIL mighty ARJUN.


Question is who are the potential enemies who have to fight against india or indian army or say its Arjun tanks are they Germany , USA or Russia or there armies with there MBTs or is it your nations army and its MBTs now tell me how do you see a picture where indian army with its Arjuns and T-90s and T-72s with all its close air support platforms like Apache, LCH , Rudra and Mi-35s Against as per you worlds best army with its all mighty Al khalids & T-84s and its vipers and WZ10s ?


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## vsdave2302

Zarvan said:


> Off course we have nothing not only we even USA and Germany don't have anything good or dependable against mighty Arjun Tank. ALL HAIL mighty ARJUN.


 
Thanks @Zarvan , This may not be true for US tank but what you say is perfectly true for Chinese tanks.


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## Bornubus

Zarvan said:


> Off course we have nothing not only we even USA and Germany don't have anything good or dependable against mighty Arjun Tank. ALL HAIL mighty ARJUN.


Yes Every one of them atleast which are possessed by China, Except their latest Type-99.


All these Chinese tanks or Mutation of Russian tanks have serious flaw, they roof is exposed and inclined over frontal Armour >>














At the same time, Arjun Mk.II armour resist direct hits from the Type 99(Extra composites + NERA. Rate based on Mk.II armour.

Afaik, Chinese operate same kind of Israeli Rounds we use under OFB manufacture, The round can penetrate +500mm @2000meters, In that case Arjun MK-1/2 can survive direct hit at frontal Armour ( As we tested Arjun against same ammo during 2000 test at point blank range ) as long as its not over her Sight.

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## knight11

*A look at the Indian Army's Main Battle Tank programs*​
In August 2014, the Defence Acquisition Council(DAC) finally gave the go ahead for 118 Arjun Mk-2 MBTs for an order value of about Rs 6600 crores.This signalled a return to production for the Arjun MBT line at Heavy Vehicles factory (HVF), Avadi that had been lying idle since 2010-11 when the last Arjun Mk-Is rolled out. Nevertheless the piecemeal order is indicative of the fact that the Indian Army (IA) continues to insist upon the demonstration of a potent missile firing capability from the Arjun Mk-2's gun before it places an indent for a much larger order. And a much larger order, as has been known to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is absolutely needed to make it viable to indigenize various sub-systems in the Arjun Mk-2. Meanwhile, the IA continues to face issues with its pool of T-90S MBTs and is increasingly turning to the Defence Research & Development Organization(DRDO) to upgrade these tanks with domestically developed technologies .As of now DRDO has dropped the LAHAT from its Arjun Mk-2 MBT plans and is instead pursuing the Canon Launched Guided Missile (CLGM) being developed indigenously at the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL).
The missile firing capability requirement grew out of the fact that though the Arjun Mk-I with a score of 25.77 beat the T-90S with a score of 24.50 in the firepower criteria during the 2010 comparative trials if the T-90S's missile firing capability were to be kept aside, the T-90 fared marginally better in the overall final score primarily on account of its Invar missile firing capability.

So, the T-90S upgrade path is similar to that followed for modifying T-72M1s to the CIA standard which includes indigenous ERA, navigation aids, an uprated 1000 HP power pack, fire suppression system, new displays and sights. Almost a 1000 CIA's have been delivered to the IA, which now probably feels that the time is ripe for upgrading older T-90S lots besides building new ones with the improved features, since production seems to have finally stabilized at around 90-100 units a year.
The T-90S's domestic production at HVF after all has been a difficult process with the Russian OEM refusing to transfer technology for vital assemblies such as the gun system (including the barrel) and turret armour plates. For the first 175 T-90s produced at Avadi, the gun system had to be imported off the shelf from Russia. However starting 2012, an indigenous 125 mm smooth bore gun developed by DRDO with a 'modified chemistry barrel' of the existing T-72 gun has gone into production having completed trials in 2010.This modified chemistry barrel has also successfully completed a life cycle test conducted at Armoured Corps Centre & School Ahmednagar. The last two years have also seen the indigenization of the T-90S's commander hatch control unit, indigenous production of 50 types of critical optical components of the T-90Sand indigenously developed cable harnesses for the same. Overall the latest batches of T-90Ss will be between 80-90 percent indigenous by value. At the moment HVF is racing to fulfil the old indent of 300 tanks (of which 80 percent may have been delivered) and is looking to commence production for some 236 more tanks as per the December 2013 indent given to it by the IA. Overall the number of T-90Ss in the IA's inventory today is just over 900 units.ven as the domestic production of the T-90S stabilizes there may be a move underway to procure some 354 T-90MS tanks from Russia directly to counter the Chinese at some points on the LAC. Proposals for any more direct import from Russia however is a little strange given that the focus instead should be on producing sizeable numbers of Arjun Mk-2s and deploying them in the Punjab and Jammu sectors as well which would free up enough domestically built T-90Ss to be deployed against China. With a power /weight ratio of 21.0, and the nominal ground pressure (NGP) of 0.95 kg/cm2 the Arjun Mk-2 is more than capable of being deployed in these areas. Moreover the .feasibility report by the railways has confirmed that the movement of Arjun loaded wagon anywhere is not a problem. The Arjun Mk-2 is strategically mobile enough to be deployed to Punjab especially given that enough bridging equipment of maximum load class 70 is available anyway.
A larger production run for the Arjun Mk-2 say of the order of about 500 units will allow its developers to indigenize about 70 percent of its systems, from the current 40 percent. This is important because having domestic suppliers for these systems with stabilized quality will make it easier to productionize the proposed FMBT at a future date which will use sub-systems of this variety that have been refined and improved. It must be noted that while CIA induction is well and good many of the IA's T-72s will run out of their designed service lives by the early 2020s which would mean that new tanks would have to replace them given the IA's authorized tank strength of some 3717 units.

source http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/india/saur ... 48711.html


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## Water Car Engineer

*120mm thermobaric + fragmentation*






*PCB, FSAPDS Mark 2*










*CLGM, HEAT

New ammunition being readied for Arjun










mark 2*

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## nang2

knight11 said:


> DRDO Tech Focus: Indigenous Technologies and Sub-systems for Armoured Fighting Vehicles
> 
> Large orders can make Arjun tank cheaper
> 
> Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90
> 
> 
> Upcoming modifications on the Arjun Mark II
> 
> Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun


No, Arjun mk2 doesn't outrun T90. It also outweights T90.


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## Dazzler

Bornubus said:


> Yes Every one of them atleast which are possessed by China, Except their latest Type-99.
> 
> 
> All these Chinese tanks or Mutation of Russian tanks have serious flaw, they roof is exposed and inclined over frontal Armour >>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the same time, Arjun Mk.II armour resist direct hits from the Type 99(Extra composites + NERA. Rate based on Mk.II armour.
> 
> Afaik, Chinese operate same kind of Israeli Rounds we use under OFB manufacture, The round can penetrate +500mm @2000meters, In that case Arjun MK-1/2 can survive direct hit at frontal Armour ( As we tested Arjun against same ammo during 2000 test at point blank range ) as long as its not over her Sight.
> 
> View attachment 285481



I can see where you are coming from and your assessment, oops, I mean copy paste skills are not good enough yet.

Let's start shall we?

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## Bornubus

Dazzler said:


> I can see where you are coming from and your assessment, oops, I mean copy paste skills are not good enough yet.
> 
> Let's start shall we?


So much assuming  where did i claimed that i haven't copy pasted,you should cut your ranting and deal with the above pics.

*Those thermobaric + fragmentation PCB TB and FSPDA MK 2 rounds is taking a toll on your cognitive abilities. *

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## Dazzler

Bornubus said:


> where did i claimed that i haven't copy pasted,you should cut your ranting and deal with the above pics.
> 
> *Those thermobaric + fragmentation PCB TB and FSPDA MK 2 rounds is taking a toll on your cognitive abilities and forcing you to assuming things from behind. *



Mate, get serious, these thermobaric rounds maybe a new things for you guys, not for the world. And your mighty FSAPDS round is obsolete in every single dimension. Ask yourself, why was it tested against the mighty T-55 and not t-72m or even t-90??? The answer will not please you at all

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## Bornubus

Dazzler said:


> Mate, get serious, these thermobaric rounds maybe a new things for you guys, not for the world. And your mighty FSAPDS round is obsolete in every single dimension. Ask yourself, why was it tested against the mighty T-55 and not t-72m or even t-90??? The answer will not please you at all


You have better authority on armor and tanks than me i agree, but where is the test mentioned anything about the testing of FSAPDS round ? I have given you the penetration value as stated by DRDO chief is 460 mm,you can verify this with Kunal on other forum,you are also a member there,let's not spam this thread.


----------



## mkb95

Dazzler said:


> Ask yourself, why was it tested against the mighty T-55 and not t-72m or even t-90???


are u serious bro?why would we test a round by wasting a operation tank.there is a reason decommissioned tanks are kept in storage.


----------



## Dazzler

Bornubus said:


> You have better authority on armor and tanks than me i agree, but where is the test mentioned anything about the testing of FSAPDS round ? I have given you the penetration value as stated by DRDO chief is 460 mm,you can verify this with Kunal on other forum,you are also a member there,let's not spam this thread.




i am an armour guy, i dont need kunal or some other forumer to confirm things that i know firsthand mate.



Bornubus said:


> You have better authority on armor and tanks than me i agree, but where is the test mentioned anything about the testing of FSAPDS round ? I have given you the penetration value as stated by DRDO chief is 460 mm,you can verify this with Kunal on other forum,you are also a member there,let's not spam this thread.



amateur response, not all t-72s are in service right? choose those that are either cannibalized or no longer in service or just pick an empty turret module fr testing sake. There is no rocket science in this and is a standard process all over the world.

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## Bharat_Bhakt

Dazzler said:


> Ask yourself, why was it tested against the mighty T-55 and not t-72m or even t-90??? l


tell me does POF uses operational T-84 or al khaleds to test there latest Tank ammo or does USA test its latest tank ammo on operational and in service abraham's or do the britishers test there tank ammo on latest challenger II or same for germans or french or russians do they test there latest tank ammo on there latest leopard 2, Le clerks or T90s if yes please give links to prove your point Sir

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## Dazzler

Bharat_Bhakt said:


> tell me does POF uses operational T-84 or al khaleds to test there latest Tank ammo or does USA test its latest tank ammo on operational and in service abraham's or do the britishers test there tank ammo on latest challenger II or same for germans or french or russians do they test there latest tank ammo on there latest leopard 2, Le clerks or T90s if yes please give links to prove your point Sir



read post # 675


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## Bharat_Bhakt

Dazzler said:


> read post # 675


so you do not have links to prove your point ? Because its an universal practice to use decomisioned tanks for testing new ammo but now days to test there capacity live ammo is stored in the target tanks with latest ERA tiles for testing latest ammo but since Sir you are a senior member and a self confessed 'tank guy' i rest my case against your athourity on the subject .

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## Dazzler

Bharat_Bhakt said:


> so you do not have links to proov your point ?



so







t-72B russia...withh kontakt-5 ERA module







t-90 russia..


----------



## GreenApple

Pics of pakistani army using T80 or al khalids for testing ammo on Them

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## Dazzler

GreenApple said:


> Pics of pakistani army using T80 or al khalids for testing ammo on Them




Alkhalid armor test...






You just insulted the two by comparing them with your obsolete t-72Ms man. Shame. Still, ammo has been tested on both to ensure armour worthiness. The above mbts are all serving in their respective militaries but I guess you either lack comprehension a little, or are plain troll to include Pakistan into everything.

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## surya kiran

Dazzler said:


> Alkhalid armor test...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just insulted the two by comparing them with your obsolete t-72Ms man. Shame. Still, ammo has been tested on both to ensure armour worthiness. The above mbts are all serving in their respective militaries but I guess you either lack comprehension a little, or are plain troll to include Pakistan into everything.




Thats from a Type 90 II armour test. Can you prove its for Al Khalid armour with some source, please?

Full image before test, I think.

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## DavidSling

This latest collaboration comes as Israel and India tighten cooperation on defense projects. These projects include: joint Israeli-Indian development of the Barak 8 defense missile for protecting offshore gas rigs; a joint venture between Israel’s Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. and India’s Kalyani Group to produce missile systems, remotely controlled weapons positions, and _*advanced systems for the protection of tanks and APCs*_; and cooperation between IAI and India’s Alpha Design Technologies on the production of mini-drones.

Source: Israel Aerospace teams with India’s Premier Explosives

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## Dazzler

surya kiran said:


> Thats from a Type 90 II armour test. Can you prove its for Al Khalid armour with some source, please?
> 
> Full image before test, I think.



Yes it is the third prototype of alkhalid being tested against tank ammo. Notice the difference of paint scheme for composite armour modules in both pictures.

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## GreenApple

Dazzler said:


> Alkhalid armor test...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just insulted the two by comparing them with your obsolete t-72Ms man. Shame. Still, ammo has been tested on both to ensure armour worthiness. The above mbts are all serving in their respective militaries but I guess you either lack comprehension a little, or are plain troll to include Pakistan into everything.


..U were testing on armour & we the ammunition..
BTW, give us that Armour so that we test both at once...and save Chinese the hassle...

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## Water Car Engineer

*Early Arjun Prototype*






*Early Arjun Prototype*






*Arjun Mark 1*






*Tank Ex - Modified Arjun Turret + T72 Chassis*






*Arjun Mark 2




*

*FMBT Concept*

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## surya kiran

Dazzler said:


> Yes it is the third prototype of alkhalid being tested against tank ammo. Notice the difference of paint scheme for composite armour modules in both pictures.


Can you give a source pointing that it is the armour you say it is?


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## Hellfire

nang2 said:


> No, Arjun mk2 doesn't outrun T90. It also outweights T90.



Very true. And if you have operated in deserts, you will understand the width and weight provide awesome stability.


----------



## Dazzler

surya kiran said:


> Can you give a source pointing that it is the armour you say it is?

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## desimorty

> No, Arjun mk2 doesn't outrun T90. It also outweights T90.
> 
> Source: Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion. | Page 45


Suspension and engine.
It out performs the T-90 in speed,armor, fire power. 
Its drawback is its weight. Which limits options for the eng corps.


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## Dazzler

surya kiran said:


> Can you give a source pointing that it is the armour you say it is?


watch the video man it is from the video


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## surya kiran

Dazzler said:


> watch the video man it is from the video



I did, and thanked you for it. What seems to be the problem?


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Mark 1s in deployment

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688267796795412482

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688267652360347648

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688267953964384256

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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688267796795412482
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688267652360347648
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/688267953964384256



What is Bharat Power pack?


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Echo_419 said:


> What is Bharat Power pack?




Engine for future tank programs like FMBT. It will make it to Arjun as well.

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## #hydra#

Water Car Engineer said:


> Engine for future tank programs like FMBT. It will make it to Arjun as well.


Do we have any indigenous depleted uranium warhead ammunition for arjun tank?


----------



## Dazzler

#hydra# said:


> Do we have any indigenous depleted uranium warhead ammunition for arjun tank?


No, so far, india does not use depleted rounds in its tanks.

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## ironman



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## #hydra#

Dazzler said:


> No, so far, india does not use depleted rounds in its tanks.


How abt china & pakistan?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

#hydra# said:


> How abt china & pakistan?


Dnt know about China.. But Pak uses both DU & Tungsten rounds... Although Naiza I & Naiza II aren't listen on POF website (outdated as hell)..

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## Dazzler

#hydra# said:


> How abt china & pakistan?



Both use them.


----------



## Mujraparty

#hydra# said:


> Do we have any indigenous depleted uranium warhead ammunition for arjun tank?



a quick online search shows india has DU shells ..
_India_
A declassified UK Ministry of Defence paper on DU suggests that India was developing DU weapons in the early 1990s. It is now thought that they are manufacturing 125mm 3BM32shells under licence from Russia.

Depleted Uranium – the facts -- New Internationalist

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## Dazzler

ironman said:


>




somebody replaced "3" with "6", its pretty obvious isnt it?

for reference, the original image..








eowyn said:


> a quick online search shows india has DU shells ..
> _India_
> A declassified UK Ministry of Defence paper on DU suggests that India was developing DU weapons in the early 1990s. It is now thought that they are manufacturing 125mm 3BM32shells under licence from Russia.
> 
> Depleted Uranium – the facts -- New Internationalist



unless they are secretive about it, it is not confirmed yet. On a sidenote, the 3BM32 Vant is also being used by Pakistani t-80uds.

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## Water Car Engineer

Mark 2






Mark 1


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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Mark 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark 1



why didnt it jump over?

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> why didnt it jump over?




It usually doesnt and breaks on top. I've seen T90S do the same infront of the people.


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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> It usually doesnt and breaks on top. I've seen T90S do the same infront of the people.



you would see the t-90 and 80 al khalid and even al zarrar and others jumping over the hill. in fact, doing so would shut her critics.

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> you would see the t-90 and 80 al khalid and even al zarrar and others jumping over the hill. in fact, doing so would shut her critics.




Havent seen Arjun do it, then I dont see much of Indian armor corps, period.


----------



## surya kiran

Dazzler said:


> ou would see the t-90 and 80 al khalid and even al zarrar and others jumping over the hill. in fact, doing so would shut her critics.



Check after 5:05


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## Dazzler

surya kiran said:


> Check after 5:05



Thats a t-90, not Arjun. Did you even see the complete video?

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## surya kiran

Dazzler said:


> the



Yea, I did. But am not much of a tank spotter. Just learning. Better with planes and missiles. Thanks for pointing it out.

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## Ankit Kumar

Water Car Engineer said:


> It usually doesnt and bwres on top. I've seen T90S do the same infront of the people.



Any pics from the acceptance trails of Arjun mk2 after which the first 40 of them were to be accepted by the army ?


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## Water Car Engineer

Ankit Kumar said:


> Any pics from the acceptance trails of Arjun mk2 after which the first 40 of them were to be accepted by the army ?




No, it's pretty hard to find pics of it in general.

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## desimorty

> you would see the t-90 and 80 al khalid and even al zarrar and others jumping over the hill. in fact, doing so would shut her critics.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-48#ixzz3yPd3sNcY


Its not a platform to perform show stunts. Just a platform to show the platform at a closer visual.
Ramp jumps another matter. And the Arjun does and can do it. Better than the AK.
You really need to get out of thread with Arjun if you keep bring in a T-55 mutilated tank that even the PLA don't want.


----------



## Dazzler

jatt said:


> Its not a platform to perform show stunts. Just a platform to show the platform at a closer visual.
> Ramp jumps another matter. And the Arjun does and can do it. Better than the AK.
> You really need to get out of thread with Arjun if you keep bring in a T-55 mutilated tank that even the PLA don't want.



You better learn a thing or two on this topic before opening your mouth. Jumping over the hump is one of the standard practices done by most mbts around the world except the arjun which leads critics to believe that it cannot do so. 

Show me a footage that it has done so to convince me instead of bragging about your death trap surrounded by shot traps.

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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> You better learn a thing or two on this topic before opening your mouth. Jumping over the hump is one of the standard practices done by most mbts around the world except the arjun which leads critics to believe that it cannot do so.
> 
> Show me a footage that it has done so to convince me instead of bragging about your death trap surrounded by shot traps.



BS. no critic has said it cannot do so. Forget 'jumping on hump' show me one footage of your junk tan doing either of the two sequences in this video:

Constant suspension pressure run of upto 3 feet obstacles shown in min 8 to 8: 10 . Very





The move it makes between 10.20 to 10.35....that's something that you can't even dream of making....ever.

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## Dazzler

Guynextdoor2 said:


> BS. no critic has said it cannot do so. Forget 'jumping on hump' show me one footage of your junk tan doing either of the two sequences in this video:
> 
> Constant suspension pressure run of upto 3 feet obstacles shown in min 8 to 8: 10 . Very
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The move it makes between 10.20 to 10.35....that's something that you can't even dream of making....ever.



Not buying old marketing and false chest thumping mate, show the one where this 68 tonne behemoth jumps over the slope or it never happened. The reason for it not to jump is pretty obvious. It'll wreck the fragile suspension.

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## desimorty

> You better learn a thing or two on this topic before opening your mouth. Jumping over the hump is one of the standard practices done by most mbts around the world except the arjun which leads critics to believe that it cannot do so.
> 
> Show me a footage that it has done so to convince me instead of bragging about your death trap surrounded by shot traps.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-48#ixzz3z3AQPETt


Really? You talk to me like that? Your the child here.
Dazzaler AK fanboy. Your punny AK tank is nothing but Chinese handmedowns of Type-90s which is mutilation of the T-55 line.
Good job.
The Arjun does and can jump over your obstacle course better than a AK. Why? Its clearance is better.
Realistically, in the field obstacle courses are not build in for show. That fragile suspension system is more than enough to provide superior mobility and suspension.
And you like a child , you are asking why it didn't jump over the platform?
Why did you ask that? Inferiority complex? 






What is this? Its a platform to show the tank notice the people standing beside it! We use these to wash and clean the tanks you moron!

You ever wonder why The T-90 does this? Its for show!
At 60 tons, not only just like your car, does it put stress on the suspension and machine but the tank doesn't "fly" well.
Its drops fast. That being said, it clears higher obstacles compared to T-90 or your AK.

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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> Not buying old marketing and false chest thumping mate, show the one where this 68 tonne behemoth jumps over the slope or it never happened. The reason for it not to jump is pretty obvious. It'll wreck the fragile suspension.



BS the Abrams are even heavier. The Arjun has hydro gas suspension so it can 'jump over hump' or take whatever pounding needs to be taken. You're better off not trying any of this on your Al Khalid. Your Torsion Bar or Leaf Spring or whatever it is you're using will crack from the second or third jump. Suspension is the last thing you should talk about. Arjun is in a different league with the Challengers in that department.


----------



## desimorty

> BS the Abrams are even heavier. The Arjun has hydro gas suspension so it can 'jump over hump' or take whatever pounding needs to be taken. You're better off not trying any of this on your Al Khalid. Your Torsion Bar or Leaf Spring or whatever it is you're using will crack from the second or third jump. Suspension is the last thing you should talk about. Arjun is in a different league with the Challengers in that department.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-48#ixzz3z3KQcGTF


Superior suspension offers better mileage and fuel economy.
But hydropneutic suspension allows tanks ie Japanese Type 90 and other modern tanks better obstacle fording. Its more expensive, but getting cheaper. Although IMO T-90 can do without this suspension.


----------



## Dazzler

Guynextdoor2 said:


> BS the Abrams are even heavier. The Arjun has hydro gas suspension so it can 'jump over hump' or take whatever pounding needs to be taken. You're better off not trying any of this on your Al Khalid. Your Torsion Bar or Leaf Spring or whatever it is you're using will crack from the second or third jump. Suspension is the last thing you should talk about. Arjun is in a different league with the Challengers in that department.




As usual, do you know that the German Leopard series and the American M1A1 also use torsion bar suspension? The hydropneumatic suspension is overtly complex and maintenance heavy. learn a thing or two before proving Arjun's superiority over its contemporaries. In fact, the torsion bars mated with electrohydraulic power drives, provide an equal, if not more comfortable ride to mbts. Ask Germans and yankees




you guys have a severe obsession with AK that force you to bring it into every discussion. All i asked was to show me a single authentic pic or a video of Arjun jumping over the slope, is that so difficult??

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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> As usual, do you know that the German Leopard series and the American M1A1 also use torsion bar suspension? The hydropneumatic suspension is overtly complex and maintenance heavy. learn a thing or two before proving Arjun's superiority over its contemporaries. In fact, the torsion bars mated with electrohydraulic power drives, provide an equal, if not more comfortable ride to mbts. Ask Germans and yankees
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you guys have a severe obsession with AK that force you to bring it into every discussion. All i asked was to show me a single authentic pic or a video of Arjun jumping over the slope, is that so difficult??



Lollz, I never said they don't have torsion bars- I said YOUR torsion bars will crack. In terms of overall build quality if you're suggesting your AL Khalid is like Abrams, goooood help you. 'Over complex' is a conclusion that you pulle dout of your @$$. and no 'video of jumping over hump' is not something I'm gonna waste my time on. It's like saying prove me to that a plane can taxi.

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## Dazzler

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Lollz, I never said they don't have torsion bars- I said YOUR torsion bars will crack. In terms of overall build quality if you're suggesting your AL Khalid is like Abrams, goooood help you. 'Over complex' is a conclusion that you pulle dout of your @$$. and no 'video of jumping over hump' is not something I'm gonna waste my time on. It's like saying prove me to that a plane can taxi.



waste of words nothing more, i saw it stopping instead of jumping which is an indication of:

* the tank has poor suspension and the crew is cautioned by the manufacturer not go over the hump or else.

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## Guynextdoor2

Dazzler said:


> waste of words nothing more, i saw it stopping instead of jumping which is an indication of:
> 
> * the tank has poor suspension and the crew is cautioned by the manufacturer not go over the hump or else.



Oh there is a tank where the crew is scared of entering the tank fearing spontaneous combustion. Instead of worrying about 'jumping over hump' new fire alarms had to be installed for the demoarialized tankers to enter the Al Khalid. The problem of spontaneous fire breakouts having never been solved, the next best case of having an alarm system which apparently allows crews to get out faster is the best solution now available.

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## kṣamā

Guynextdoor2 said:


> The problem of spontaneous fire breakouts having never been solved, the next best case of having an alarm system which apparently allows crews to get out faster is the best solution now available.


That's rich!

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## Dazzler

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Oh there is a tank where the crew is scared of entering the tank fearing spontaneous combustion. Instead of worrying about 'jumping over hump' new fire alarms had to be installed for the demoarialized tankers to enter the Al Khalid. The problem of spontaneous fire breakouts having never been solved, the next best case of having an alarm system which apparently allows crews to get out faster is the best solution now available.




Never happened to Alkhalid crew, Google "Crew Bay Protection System" and see why Alkhalid never had such an incident. Not to mention it also has an ECS.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3896.html

Back to topic, show me a video where Arjun jumped from over the hump

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## Dazzler

kṣamā said:


> That's rich!



on the contrary, it is called fabricated news.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Dazzler said:


> Never happened to Alkhalid crew, Google "Crew Bay Protection System" and see why Alkhalid never had such an incident. Not to mention is also has an ECS.
> 
> http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3896.html
> 
> Back to topic, show me a video where Arjun jumped from over the hump



That happened during his wet dream... And he's confusing it with reality..


----------



## phantomrush

jatt said:


> Really? You talk to me like that? Your the child here.
> Dazzaler AK fanboy. Your punny AK tank is nothing but Chinese handmedowns of Type-90s which is mutilation of the T-55 line.
> Good job.
> The Arjun does and can jump over your obstacle course better than a AK. Why? Its clearance is better.
> Realistically, in the field obstacle courses are not build in for show. That fragile suspension system is more than enough to provide superior mobility and suspension.
> And you like a child , you are asking why it didn't jump over the platform?
> Why did you ask that? Inferiority complex?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is this? Its a platform to show the tank notice the people standing beside it! We use these to wash and clean the tanks you moron!
> 
> You ever wonder why The T-90 does this? Its for show!
> At 60 tons, not only just like your car, does it put stress on the suspension and machine but the tank doesn't "fly" well.
> Its drops fast. That being said, it clears higher obstacles compared to T-90 or your AK.







Leo2




Т-80У




Т-90А




Merkava




M1
All of them can jump. Just a T-80/90 suspension is firmer, and they can jump higher, farther.





Ups
Leo2





Upd
Leo2
http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2074/leopard2.jpg

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## ANPP

Dazzler said:


> As usual, do you know that the German Leopard series and the American M1A1 also use torsion bar suspension? The hydropneumatic suspension is overtly complex and maintenance heavy. learn a thing or two before proving Arjun's superiority over its contemporaries. In fact, the torsion bars mated with electrohydraulic power drives, provide an equal, if not more comfortable ride to mbts. Ask Germans and yankees
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you guys have a severe obsession with AK that force you to bring it into every discussion. All i asked was to show me a single authentic pic or a video of Arjun jumping over the slope, is that so difficult??




If some thing is not shown than it doesnt mean that it cannt be done. lol. Last time someone ask LCA didnt did the X kind of act so LCA is inferior. And now that thread is running without any sense.
It is expected from a think tank to contribute positively. So next time you should try to go Pokharna firing range. And record video and tell us " yes Arjun also can do that."


----------



## desimorty

> M1
> All of them can jump. Just a T-80/90 suspension is firmer, and they can jump higher, farther.
> 
> 
> Ups
> Leo2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upd
> Leo2
> http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2074/leopard2.jpg
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-49#ixzz3zE7DXsSn


How use full is this jumping?
Infact how many of those tanks you just showed actually have hydropneuatic suspension?
Answer me this. Why did SK Japan, India build thier tanks with a newer faultier suspension system?
It performs better.
If you ever drive a car or vehicle, you'll know the value of good suspension. Expeicially air cushioned.

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## phantomrush

jatt said:


> How use full is this jumping?
> Infact how many of those tanks you just showed actually have hydropneuatic suspension?
> Answer me this. Why did SK Japan, India build thier tanks with a newer faultier suspension system?
> It performs better.
> If you ever drive a car or vehicle, you'll know the value of good suspension. Expeicially air cushioned.


Because you have a bad tank. And the Japanese have never been an example of tank building.

Strong school tank- Russia, USA, Germany. The rest will never be even close to them a century. Example - Why Russia is not caught on the idea of active protection system- because it is dangerous for their infantry. In the same by Germany and the United States. Others do not know how to think, they can only be stupid and repeat them.
Russia has only now emerged Operating System on the T-14 \ Kurganets25.
The United States and Germany are waiting for the Russian engine results, and only then start to put yourself and them. And the fact that "other" try - it's a laugh. Especially Jews.


----------



## desimorty

> Because you have a bad tank. And the Japanese have never been an example of tank building.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-49#ixzz3zFOVZDyW


Wow, your stupid.
No more. Get out of this thread and go fap off to what ever you want.



> Strong school tank- Russia, USA, Germany. The rest will never be even close to them a century. Example - Why Russia is not caught on the idea of active protection system- because it is dangerous for their infantry. In the same by Germany and the United States. Others do not know how to think, they can only be stupid and repeat them.
> Russia has only now emerged Operating System on the T-14 \ Kurganets25.
> The United States and Germany are waiting for the Russian engine results, and only then start to put yourself and them. And the fact that "other" try - it's a laugh. Especially Jews.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-49#ixzz3zFOoQleu


Alright tank expert. You wanna tell me where the Japs got the idea for Type 90 tanks?
You think Japanese who build some of the most advanced submarines, destroyers, and the 2nd largest economy in the world cant build a fukin tank?
Do you know why the Russians built the T-72 and T-80?
You have no idea about cold war tacctics.
Russia was not building qaulity tanks. They didn't have the time. They were preparing for a coming war. Which never happened.
That is why the Russian war complex is pushing for higher quality now.


----------



## phantomrush

jatt said:


> Wow, your stupid.
> No more. Get out of this thread and go fap off to what ever you want.
> 
> 
> Alright tank expert. You wanna tell me where the Japs got the idea for Type 90 tanks?
> You think Japanese who build some of the most advanced submarines, destroyers, and the 2nd largest economy in the world cant build a fukin tank?
> Do you know why the Russians built the T-72 and T-80?
> You have no idea about cold war tacctics.
> Russia was not building qaulity tanks. They didn't have the time. They were preparing for a coming war. Which never happened.
> That is why the Russian war complex is pushing for higher quality now.


I know not only why did the T-72 and T-80, but also why the original was the T-64 and T-64A. But you obviously do not have. I know the difference between the T-72A from the T-72B, T-80A from the T-80U. What is the object 187, and others.
Japanese debris. Their marine engine and good, so only ground - all the garbage.
And tell me how, why these "miracle of the Japanese" made from a submarine? Not really, they were able to make the SSN? Or they could make a nuclear reactor of reasonable size and power? Oh sorry, I forgot that all the nuclear reactors in Japan of foreign manufacture.
Japan is, in principle, is not capable of adequate ground operations.

Of the other countries, except the United States, Germany and Russia, but the Koreans were able to do something adequate. But, while it is not known about the armor of a tank. It is possible that they could do a tungsten armor, because It has long been shining on their armor shows "increasing the strength." But, again, they are only "catch up" with the United States, Russia and Germany, have made it 25-30 years ago.


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## desimorty

> I know not only why did the T-72 and T-80, but also why the original was the T-64 and T-64A. But you obviously do not have. I know the difference between the T-72A from the T-72B, T-80A from the T-80U. What is the object 187, and others.
> Japanese debris. Their marine engine and good, so only ground - all the garbage.
> And tell me how, why these "miracle of the Japanese" made from a submarine? Not really, they were able to make the SSN? Or they could make a nuclear reactor of reasonable size and power? Oh sorry, I forgot that all the nuclear reactors in Japan of foreign manufacture.
> Japan is, in principle, is not capable of adequate ground operations.
> 
> Of the other countries, except the United States, Germany and Russia, but the Koreans were able to do something adequate. But, while it is not known about the armor of a tank. It is possible that they could do a tungsten armor, because It has long been shining on their armor shows "increasing the strength." But, again, they are only "catch up" with the United States, Russia and Germany, have made it 25-30 years ago.
> 
> Source: Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion. | Page 49


Wow, okay you are an idoit.
First off the Japanese are actually some of the best manufacturers in the world. Not only that, the Japanese hold American nuclear technology, the CORE of the reactors comes from Japan. IE nuclear power reactors in North America are a Japanese monopoly. Why do think India went to Japan right after US NSG waiver? The Japanese were given the tech by the americans to HOLD on to as compensation for getting nuked. Little history lesson for you son which is also why the Japanese don't arm themselves with nuclear weapons or platforms. So do you research again, and stop posting BS like you know nuclear physics when you don't know sh1te.

I'll teach you but only for purpose. As i've stated. The T series from Russia and USSR were created in the heat of the cold war. Hence why after the 90's all major projects were cancelled and put on hold or like most, turned into lab work of decades. This is why the T-90 is evolving and not getting cheaper or easier to manufacture. Because Russia has 20000 tanks in cold storage. What they need is heavy tank to take hits. As for armor. This depends on the local steal industry.
You don't buy steal from Russia when you can produce your own. For instance, the T-90 and T-72 both manufactured in India have Indian armor. NOT russian.
Now that i've edcuated you hopefully you'll come back to orginal arugment of convencing me why a tank can't and shouldn't do jumps. because what you said about Japanese is pure crap. When you understand how tanks are manufactured and machines and cranes involved in the operation, you'll have a better understanding of Japanese manufacturing capability and American.
From that note, you should also realize that the Chinese themselves sold Pakistan their machines and tools to manufacture parts of the AK.
For you sake, i'll ignore you if you give me more BS again.

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## phantomrush

jatt said:


> Wow, okay you are an idoit.
> .


Patriotism is good only when it is present and not stupid.
Indian tanks is a very funny thing, in which the Indian except money. ATGM Israel, imager-Israel / France, radio explosive mixture of Soviet and Chinese technology quality. Armor can not be "your" T-90S tanks going with kits from Russia. Your only there vookrug metal tank.



seen here in the photo "filler". This is the armor. metal there is interest to anyone is not. All the power armor in these fillers.
All of Japan's nuclear reactors are reactors clean copy of General Electric. Japan lost its spirit, its will. It is a puppet, which twist as they want from the west. Japan ordered-they obeyed. Actually why Japanese and can not create any normal aircraft or helicopter, or any other that may be more dangerous than a pickup truck with a machine gun. This is from a military point of view.



phantomrush said:


> Japan's nuclear reactors are reactors clean copy of General Electric


General Electric-designed reactors in Fukushima have 23 sisters in U.S. - Investigations

GT sorry


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## desimorty

> Patriotism is good only when it is present and not stupid.
> Indian tanks is a very funny thing, in which the Indian except money. ATGM Israel, imager-Israel / France, radio explosive mixture of Soviet and Chinese technology quality. Armor can not be "your" T-90S tanks going with kits from Russia. Your only there vookrug metal tank.
> 
> Source: Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion. | Page 50


I don't care for patriotism. I'm Punjabi. 
But your bs is amusing. Its not making sense to me. I have no idea what your trying to say as far as tanks, but I assume your too young to know assemblies. The Kits for the T-90s were bought earlier. Were ever economical. Doesn't mean India is producing junk. For gods sake, they didn't want shotra system.
As far your Fuksima bs,
Look up Toshiba. Its heavy water reactos etc. Japan, and its companies have a monoply on reactors. Welcome to the world of globalization.

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## knight11



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## sathya

Iran has guts to refuse T90s for a indigenous tank, 

While we are still in dilemma to chose between T90M & Armata . 

If arjun is heavy , what are we waiting for ..to develop one in light category ?

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## Defence News

*Source:- defenceupdate.in*
The Arjun MBT Mark 2 is a advanced third generation Main battle tank developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organization, for the Indian Army. The Arjun Mk2 is an improved version of the original Arjun main battle tank. It was developed in cooperation with Israeli defense companies. A total of 13 major improvements were made. After prolonged development the original Arjun Mk1 entered service with the Indian Army in 2004. However the original MBT failed to impress the Army and improvements were required in order to make it combat-worthy. The new Arjun Mk2 has improved protection, firepower and mobility over its predecessor. Trials of the Arjun Mk2 began in 2012.

Sources close to Defense ministry confirms that Army set to receive the first lot of 40 Arjun Mark 2 Tanks soon. Arjun almost finished all trails and set to enter the pre deployment plans. The First batch of ordered 40 Tanks will be deployed along the Punjab and Rajastan Borders. Arjun meets the Army’s fire power requirement, defensive systems and the required speed performance. The three main elements of the battle tank. Forty of the new Mark 2 tanks will form a new Tank regiment.

Indian Army plans to induct more numbers of Arjun Mark 2 Tanks. the Mark 1 version is an limited deployment due to low numbers. Indian Army operates 124 Mark 1 Arjun Tanks. and Plans to induct more mark 2 version. The mark 2 has 93 new improvements include 13 major structural modifications. The improved 120mm rifled gun can fire anti tank rounds and missiles. The Mark 2 also equipped with remote controlled weapon station for anti personnel use.

During the army’s extensive trails Arjun mark 2 outperformed the T 90 MS. the T 90 Bhishma is an third generation main battle tank. while the Arjun mark 2 is an advanced third generation tank, which incorporates many advanced features for defensive and offensive roles. The Battle tanks are designed to combat against the tanks. However modern tanks packs more punch, which can provide close fire support during an invasion.

Arjun not only designed to perform missions in desert lands. Arjun can perform missions in all over India in any circumstance. Compared to the Mark 1 the Mark 2 has an important upgrade of firing anti tank missile through it’s rifled gun. the Indo Israeli missile LAHAT uses the laser guidance to hit targets beyond the non line of sight. This makes the new Arjun tanks can hit enemy targets far beyond the line of sight.

The missile firing also improves the Arjun’s fire power range. Currently the Lahat is the only anti tank missile that can hit enemy targets at long range and in high precision. The Lahat has the effective range of upto 8 kilometers. The Arjun’s fire control mechanism and battlefield survivability is designed with the help of Israeli’s. much of the modern fir control systems and countermeasure system derived from the Israeli Merkava tanks

The Tank isn’t built with the steel or iron. Most part of the Tanks’ structure made by the Kanchan armor. The Plates are designed and developed by the defense metallurgical research laboratory. The composite of the material remain classified. The kanchan being used in the Arjun tanks only. During the trails the Kanchan able to withstand from an 107mm recoilless shell. the trails followed by firing High explosive and armor piercing warheads. Those shells are used in the most Tanks who has no missile firing capabilities. The Kanchan withstands from those shells fired by the T 72 within the point blank range.



The Arjun MK 2 not only comes with the Kanchan armor, same like other main battle tanks, the Arjuns too comes with explosive reactive armor as secondary armor. The ERA gives an additional armor protection to the Tank. however the ERA will not be placed all over the Tank. It will be fitted in the weak points of the Tank such as gun point and sides. With the support from Elbit Israel. Arjun has very less weak points in front side and gun points, makes the Arjun tank best battle tanks which can withstand from enemy direct fire.

Arjun MK 1 is more mobile compared to the Mark 2 variant. Mark 2 has a over weight of some 10 tons compared to the 55 tons of Arjun Mark 1. The future tanks must come with light in weight which gives the tanks shoot and scoot capabilities. However the Mark 2 can attain 40 kmph in cross country. Arjun does have the capability of fire on the move. The Arjun hold the world record of heaviest tank in service. The overweight is an disadvantage to the Mark 2, The overweight makes difficult in quick deployment. Due to the heavy weight the IAF’s C 17 is the only air lifter which can air lift the mark 2 Tank.

The Arjun’s fire control systems allows the tank to engage both stationary and moving targets even in non line of sight. The fire control system allows the missile autonomously select targets and engage in high accuracy. The accuracy can be expanded with the help of Tank’s target acquisition system and nearby flying UAV’s. Arjun is combat capable in all rough weather conditions, day and night missions.
Once the Army deployed the first batch of 40 Mark 2 tanks. The Heavy vehicle factory planned to produce 300 more in coming years for the Indian Army. However the Arjun Tank is not available for export. Since Latin American countries shown interest in the Arjun Tank.

*Source:- defenceupdate.in
Content of post is taken from this website.Don't forget to visit this site*

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## 4GTejasBVR

Super team Arjun.... Hope we induct then in large numbers to support our manufacturing sector.


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## Dazzler

jatt said:


> I don't care for patriotism. I'm Punjabi.
> But your bs is amusing. Its not making sense to me. I have no idea what your trying to say as far as tanks, but I assume your too young to know assemblies. The Kits for the T-90s were bought earlier. Were ever economical. Doesn't mean India is producing junk. For gods sake, they didn't want shotra system.
> As far your Fuksima bs,
> Look up Toshiba. Its heavy water reactos etc. Japan, and its companies have a monoply on reactors. Welcome to the world of globalization.




you seem to have no clue what he is saying.

in simple words, india does not manufacture the whole of t-90, rather from parts supplied by russia. this means that the russians have withheld key technologies of t-90 that india cannot manufacture by itsef, this includes turret, armour modules and inserts and even ammo which is a sad truth. 

now, since the HULL and TURRET come prefabricated from russia with armour inserts already fitted within them, how on earth did india remove them to put their kanchan armour inserts? Keep in mind that the hull and turret are not made out of ordinary steel or rolled homogeneous modules.

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## desimorty

> you seem to have no clue what he is saying.
> 
> in simple words, india does not manufacture the whole of t-90, rather from parts supplied by russia. this means that the russians have withheld key technologies of t-90 that india cannot manufacture by itsef, this includes turret, armour modules and inserts and even ammo which is a sad truth.
> 
> now, since the HULL and TURRET come prefabricated from russia with armour inserts already fitted within them, how on earth did india remove them to put their kanchan armour inserts? Keep in mind that the hull and turret are not made out of ordinary steel or rolled homogeneous modules.
> 
> Source: Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion. | Page 50


lol, like you know hwat your talking about?
Russia has NO reason to with hold any technology. This is economics. What is cheaper to manufacture in India. At the end of the day, India can produce T-90s since they already produce or had localized production of the T-72 series to 80%. The HULL and Turret are NOT pre fabricated, not an more. Your obviously full of BS since you don't understand the economics of cost reduction. Why the hell would the steal be bought from Russia? The metal, would be the first thing to be supplied from India. I don't care what you think, because i've seen avadi in production. Steal is Indian and so is the mojority of the tank. That being said, auto loader and other systems are 3rd party vendors.
You seriously think this is freakin sandwich they're making?
Dazaller, your the last person, whos opinon I care for.



> Iran has guts to refuse T90s for a indigenous tank,
> 
> While we are still in dilemma to chose between T90M & Armata .
> 
> If arjun is heavy , what are we waiting for ..to develop one in light category ?
> 
> Source: Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion. | Page 50


T-90 production line would be expensive. Building on their own design with new machines would be a more realistic solution. AFAIK, the FCS and electronics would be cheaper to buy abroad.

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## Lonely Hermit

*Cross posting from another forum

India`s own effort to upgrade existing T-90S*







User-trials of a T-90S MBT equipped with IRDE-developed and *BEL-built commanderâ€™s panoramic sight and driverâ€™s uncooled thermal imager (derived from that developed for the Arjun Mk1A MBT) *have just gotten underway. If all goes well, then these two items will be retrofitted on to both the first 310 T-90S MBTs acquired for the Indian Army just about a decade ago, as well as on 1,000 T-72M1 MBTs that are due to undergo a deep upgrade. For both MBT-types,* VRDE has already developed the APU, which too is now undergoing user-trials.*








---------------

The CVRDE-upgraded prototype of the T-90S has done away with the T01-K04 and substitutes it with the IRDE-developed and BEL-built commanderâ€™s panoramic sight (which houses a SAGEM-built MATIS-STD thermal imager operating in the 3-5 micron bandwidth), which has resulted in enhanced static visibility levels for both the gunner and commander.






-------------

In addition, the IV528-2 digital ballistics computer has given way to an indigenous solution developed by TATA Power Strategic Electronics Division, while the IRDE-developed driverâ€™s uncooled thermal imaging night sight has replaced the TVN-5 night-vision device. 






------------

Furthermore, a DEAL-developed MMW-based IFF system has been installed for enhancing the MBT crewâ€™s situational awareness.






-----------






Lastly, the T-90Sâ€™ track-wraps have been indigenised by AMW-MGM Forgings Pvt Ltd, which has also developed tracks with metal/rubber-brushed parallel pin-jointed gearings, stamped track-links adapted to accept rubber pads, with steel needles on the track-pins providing conductivity and picking up static electricity from rubber-brushed pin-jointed gearings during movement


CC-Kunal Biswas

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## Alpha Fighter

Dazzler said:


> you seem to have no clue what he is saying.
> 
> in simple words, india does not manufacture the whole of t-90, rather from parts supplied by russia. this means that the russians have withheld key technologies of t-90 that india cannot manufacture by itsef, this includes turret, armour modules and inserts and even ammo which is a sad truth.


Long time back Russian refused to provide TOT of the barrel , so the T-90 production effected , but that to now provided by Russians.



Dazzler said:


> now, since the HULL and TURRET come prefabricated from russia with armour inserts already fitted within them, how on earth did india remove them to put their kanchan armour inserts? Keep in mind that the hull and turret are not made out of ordinary steel or rolled homogeneous modules.



Get your facts right. Your knowledge is still stuck in 1999.

Two OFB factories in Kanpur build the gun and breach block.
Another in Jabalpur builds the recoil system,
while another one in Tiruchiralapplli fabricates the 12.7 millimetre air defence gun.
The sophisticated thermal imaging sights and gunner’s sights come from OFB’s Opto-Electronics Factory in Dehradun. The gun stabilizer, which allows the tank to fire accurately while moving, comes from Bharat Electronics Ltd.

*Within Avadi, HVF builds major components of the T-90S: the hull, turret*, transmission, gearbox and the running gear. Another OFB facility next door,* Engine Factory, Avadi, builds the tank’s 1000 HP engine*. Thousands of minor parts are outsourced to local industry: electrical items, cables, starter generator, instrument panel, hardware and rubber components. it is 80-90% local made components.

India, Russia resolve T90 technology transfer issues - Indian Express

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer



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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Any context for this picture brother?


+ you can see some new TATA trucks in the background


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Any context for this picture brother?
> 
> 
> + you can see some new TATA trucks in the background




Parliamentary Standing Committee Visit at LRDE

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## Abingdonboy

Arjun Mk.1 traversing a mobile foldable bridge:

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## Water Car Engineer

PCB, Arjun's bunker buster delayed blast ammo

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2016/march_16.pdf

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## Water Car Engineer

*T90, Arjun, Dhruvs*

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## Water Car Engineer

*Arjun Mark 1 Transported

Trailer produced by TRATEC ENGINEERS PVT. LTD.*

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## Perpendicular

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Arjun Mark 1 Transported
> 
> Trailer produced by TRATEC ENGINEERS PVT. LTD.*


Like this new camo.


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## Water Car Engineer

Mark 2















Mark 2 using DRDO's Modular Bridging System 






DRDO's Modular Bridging System - Being produced by LnT

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> DRDO's Modular Bridging System - Being produced by LnT


Waiting for the BLT version of the Arjun.


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Waiting for the BLT version of the Arjun.



??

It has existed for some time though.

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> ??
> 
> It has existed for some time though.


Sorry, I meant on the Mk.2 chassis.

Any ideas if the Mk.1 BLT is in service? 


+ Also hoping to see an Arjun Assualt Breacher version, like the Abrams has:
























(I'm aware the Mk.2 has a mine plough)

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Sorry, I meant on the Mk.2 chassis.
> 
> Any ideas if the Mk.1 BLT is in service?



The changes in MK1, MK2 chassis is minimal at best, or wont make much difference.

I dont think it's in service. They're working on a armoured recovery vehicle at the moment. That will surely be inducted.






They only have a fail system on arjun for anti mine opps. They should make something like the Abram example.






Anyway -----

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> The changes in MK1, MK2 chassis is minimal at best, or wont make much difference.
> 
> I dont think it's in service. They're working on a armoured recovery vehicle at the moment. That will surely be inducted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They only have a fail system on arjun for anti mine opps. They should make something like the Abram example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway -----


The Arjun BLT needs to enter service along with all other support vehicles otherwise the Arjun will never be fully operational in the IA and always be impared.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

The Elbit commander's sight is replaced with a local one.











This is also another commander sighs recently certified.

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## Water Car Engineer

You can see Arjun 130mm Catapult being used.

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## Water Car Engineer

*Remote Controlled AA Gun*

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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> PCB, Arjun's bunker buster delayed blast ammo
> 
> http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2016/march_16.pdf




*





Arjun's Thermobaric Bunker Buster Ammo*

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## Pandemonium

Hi , How many arjun mk2 have we ordered and how many are in service as of today ??


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## Water Car Engineer

Pandemonium said:


> Hi , How many arjun mk2 have we ordered and how many are in service as of today ??



none, 110+ on order.

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## Pandemonium

Water Car Engineer said:


> none, 110+ on order.


so saabji, when can we expect to see the first mk2s in service ? 
And i read an article on another website that the design for the arjun was influenced by the german leopard tank . It said that the indian govtment hired the makers of the leopard tank as consultants in the arjun project . Is that true ? 
Not that i see anything wrong in it . The leopard is a mighty fine tank to base the arjun's design on . 

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-52#ixzz46zEbLFIY


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pandemonium said:


> so saabji, when can we expect to see the first mk2s in service ?
> And i read an article on another website that the design for the arjun was influenced by the german leopard tank . It said that the indian govtment hired the makers of the leopard tank as consultants in the arjun project . Is that true ?
> Not that i see anything wrong in it . The leopard is a mighty fine tank to base the arjun's design on .
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-52#ixzz46zEbLFIY




Leopard;






Arjun;







Arjun again was designed by the Germans .. Too bad it's got a lot of flaws .. Good Indian army went for T-90s.

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Leopard;
> View attachment 302369
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun;
> View attachment 302370
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun again was designed by the Germans .. Too bad it's got a lot of flaws .. Good Indian army went for T-90s.




They choose the German style design, there were other designs of Arjun out. Did the Germans also design this?






This is one without the weak point, rejected by the army.



Pandemonium said:


> so saabji, when can we expect to see the first mk2s in service ?
> And i read an article on another website that the design for the arjun was influenced by the german leopard tank . It said that the indian govtment hired the makers of the leopard tank as consultants in the arjun project . Is that true ?
> Not that i see anything wrong in it . The leopard is a mighty fine tank to base the arjun's design on .
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-52#ixzz46zEbLFIY




Yes, but there were many other designs there. Recently, a design that looks nothing like the early leo's was shown.


The new tank designs wont have that weak point, example with recent FMBT concept shown-

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> They choose the German style design, there were other designs of Arjun out. Did the Germans also design this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one without the weak point, rejected by the army.



I don't know maybe Krauss Maffei the designer didn't agree on that one ..

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I don't know maybe Krauss Maffei the designer didn't agree on that one ..




More like the Indian brass thought that early leopard design was cool. It was a design reject by them.

Ironically the Germans and Japanese would themselves fix that issue with later models, even though DRDO had a better turret design from the beginning.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> More like the Indian brass thought that early leopard design was cool. It was a design reject by them.



And because Krauss Maffei's "help".



> Ironically the Germans and Japanese would themselves fix that issue with later models, even though DRDO had a better turret design from the beginning.



Which looked exactly like the old leopard .. Apart from having the same flaws (like the exposed and thin imagery system in the turret which could be penetrated even by a 12.7 or maybe even by an AP 7.62... And many more.

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And because Krauss Maffei's "help".




First of all, I dont care if anyone, "helped". Your own JF and AK also had, "help", outside China, the lead designer even. What difference does it make?

The better designed one was rejected by the Indian brass. That design doesnt even look like the Arjun of today, or any German models being inducted at the time.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Which looked exactly like the old leopard .. Apart from having the same flaws (like the exposed and thin imagery system in the turret which could be penetrated even by a 12.7 or maybe even by an AP 7.62... And many more.




I have already stated it was an issue that Arjun, early leo, early Japanese type models had. They had a design which didnt have that issue from the very beginning. A design that looked nothing like any German models at the time.

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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> The Elbit commander's sight is replaced with a local one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is also another commander sighs recently certified.


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## Pandemonium

Water Car Engineer said:


> They choose the German style design, there were other designs of Arjun out. Did the Germans also design this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one without the weak point, rejected by the army.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but there were many other designs there. Recently, a design that looks nothing like the early leo's was shown.
> 
> 
> The new tank designs wont have that weak point, example with recent FMBT concept shown-


For future mbt are they going for a totally new tank design? Or improved variants of the arjun ? 
If it was upto me i would go with both . One heavy tank based on arjun and one lighter tank( to replace the t-90s) .


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## Water Car Engineer

Pandemonium said:


> For future mbt are they going for a totally new tank design? Or improved variants of the arjun ?
> If it was upto me i would go with both . One heavy tank based on arjun and one lighter tank( to replace the t-90s) .




New design, I think there'll be newer marks of Arjun though.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> First of all, I dont care if anyone, "helped".


Than why the rants? It ain't a secret that Arjun was designed by Krauss Maffei.. Uses many German systems .. In fact over 69% of its still being imported and assembled .. Despite the fact that it's a failed product.


> Your own JF and AK also had, "help", outside China, the lead designer even. What difference does it make?



We never claim JF to be 100% indigenous .. That's a JV.. AK for fhat matter is an entirely Pak tank .. 

And most of all .. Both are successes!


> The better designed one was rejected by the Indian brass. That design doesnt even look like the Arjun of today, or any German models being inducted at the time.


Okay.


> I have already stated it was an issue that Arjun, early leo, early Japanese type models had. They had a design which didnt have that issue from the very beginning. A design that looked nothing like any German models at the time.



Huh?

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## Pandemonium

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Than why the rants? It ain't a secret that Arjun was designed by Krauss Maffei.. Uses many German systems .. In fact over 69% of its still being imported and assembled .. Despite the fact that it's a failed product.
> 
> 
> We never claim JF to be 100% indigenous .. That's a JV.. AK for fhat matter is an entirely Pak tank ..
> 
> And most of all .. Both are successes!
> 
> Okay.
> 
> 
> Huh?


AK (al khalid i presume) is an entirely pakistani tank ? wasnt china involved in its development ? and the engine from Ukraine?


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## Jamwal's

Pandemonium said:


> AK (al khalid i presume) is an entirely pakistani tank ? wasnt china involved in its development ? and the engine from Ukraine?


Engine Ukrainian, Sight - French Catherine,Design - Chinese Type 90 - 2 etc etc.


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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We never claim JF to be 100% indigenous .. That's a JV.. AK for fhat matter is an entirely Pak tank ..
> ?




Dude, your AK is based on the Chinese MBT 2000, which the Chinese themselves took help from Serbian designers that worked on Vihor program.

The guy even trolled the Chinese in this pic, writing, Vihor 2 on the turret. The same guy was seen working on the AK program for obvious reasons.










What does Arjun import? Engine, sights? You do the same. You dont have exact figures like what DRDO gives. So you have the luxury of saying it's 100% Pakistani, but we all know it's just as assembled as that Adam Pakistan car that failed.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> Dude, your AK is based on the Chinese MBT 2000, which the Chinese themselves took help from Serbian designers that worked on Vihor program.
> 
> The guy even trolled the Chinese in this pic, writing, Vihor 2 on the turret. The same guy was seen working on the AK program for obvious reasons.



Mbt-2000 is a downgraded AK with Chinese systems ..this Serbian was in Pak .. The pics are from Pak and those are Pak uniforms (black overalls world by Armour.MI & SP troops).


> What does Arjun import? Engine, sights? You do the same. You dont have exact figures like what DRDO gives. So you have the luxury of saying it's 100% Pakistani, but we all know it's just as assembled as that Adam Pakistan car that failed.



What does Arjun import? Pretty much everything ..

About AK? We produce it all I house and all of its major systems are Pak... Be it tank gin,ERA,Armour,Laser jamming system,laser detection and warning system,loader,IBMS,FSS, etc .. And we aren't importing and assembling with from abroad nor is it a failed tank.

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## Echo_419

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Mbt-2000 is a downgraded AK with Chinese systems ..this Serbian was in Pak .. The pics are from Pak and those are Pak uniforms (black overalls world by Armour.MI & SP troops).
> 
> 
> What does Arjun import? Pretty much everything ..
> 
> About AK? We produce it all I house and all of its major systems are Pak... Be it tank gin,ERA,Armour,Laser jamming system,laser detection and warning system,loader,IBMS,FSS, etc .. And we aren't importing and assembling with from abroad nor is it a failed tank.



Arre yeh kahi aur discuss .karlo This is a dedicated thread


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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Mbt-2000 is a downgraded AK with Chinese systems ..this Serbian was in Pak .. The pics are from Pak and those are Pak uniforms (black overalls world by Armour.MI & SP troops).



Lmao, MBT 2000 is a downgraded AK?

More like the AK is a license produced MBT2000, with your own imported contented sown in from outside. Chinese gives such option to any of it's export models.










MBT 2000










AK







Vihor-1 Program







Serbian designer who worked on Vihor program, MBT 2000 trolling by writing, "Vihor tank 2", on it's turret






Same guy in Pak, known to help out for obvious reasons

How delusional are you to think you didnt you didnt get any help? When the lead designer of the program did? 

Look at HIT products, their all license produced crap, please tell me what are they going to give to the Chinese?




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> What does Arjun import? Pretty much everything ..
> 
> About AK? We produce it all I house and all of its major systems are Pak... Be it tank gin,ERA,Armour,Laser jamming system,laser detection and warning system,loader,IBMS,FSS, etc .. And we aren't importing and assembling with from abroad nor is it a failed tank.




Most of what you mentioned arent imported in Arjun, either. You dont have the exact data like DRDO gives, so save it. If DRDO said nothing, you would know engines, sights, etc are imported no different from AK. India could also have the luxury of saying everything is, 10000% made in India, like you can with AK.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> Lmao, MBT 2000 is a downgraded AK?



Yes my boy.. It's a watered down tank for export.. Marketed by Norinco & HIT.. Price is around 4 million a pop.. uses Chinese components and still is marketed by Pak & China because it's a Pak tank with Chinese systems.. It also doesn't have advanced equipment like IBMS,HK etc.



> More like the AK is a license produced MBT2000, with your own imported contented sown in from outside. Chinese gives such option to any of it's export models.




Stop making foolish statements boy.. You don't know shyt about AK or MBT series..

AK was designed on the basis of a Chinese tank .. It was designed by a Pak .. Several of its prototypes were tested some with German and complete European and Chinese systems .. Others with Pak & European systems..

AK was selected for production .. Meanwhile the watered down one became MBT-2000.



> MBT-2000



Just explained your ignorance.. The above is the low key VTA1 .. It's the most inferior variant .. Exported only to the Peruvians..




> AK

















> Vihor-1 Program
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Serbian designer who worked on Vihor program, MBT 2000 trolling by writing, "Vihor tank 2", on it's turret



Hahahaha Vihor was based on the T-84.. Which was based on the T-72.

The tank in the first pic is a type 96..in China .. It's evolution became Type-96G!! It was based on Type-85II!

The One below is an early "prototype" of AK... Being tested in Khairpur Tamavali, desert near Bahawalpur...

It was designed in Pak by HIT by a Tank Designer "Syed Mohammad Ali".... And Vladimir Ivanovic (the man in the pic is Serbian/Yugoslavic) tested its System Integration .. You will also find pics of KMBDs head driving AK..







> How delusional are you to think you didnt you didnt get any help? When the lead designer of the program did?



Oh boy.. You must be really stupid .. Despite getting owned several times by guys like me & @Dazzler. Here you are spreading nonsense.


> Look at HIT products, their all license produced crap, please tell me what are they going to give to the Chinese?




License produce crap by HIT ? Says the indian whose country failed even producing a leopard copy .. Even an assembling project which was rejected by her own army .. A tank which is full of massive flaws .. From its low velocity canon.. Exposes and useless turret .. A suspension that can't jump or fire during that.. A tank which can't be transported by rail.. A tank plagued with issues .. A tank with no effective ammunition .. A tank which is termed a white elephant .. That's funny.



> Most of what you mentioned arent imported in Arjun, either. You dont have the exact data like DRDO gives, so save it. If DRDO said nothing, you would know engines, sights, etc are imported no different from AK. India could also have the luxury of saying everything is, 10000% made in India, like you can with AK.



No DODO said nothing "parikar" said that .. It's his statement that despite decades of Arjuna "copy paste" .. 60+% of it is still being "imported" .. All this despite the fact that much of the technology all 40%  is now being produced in India.

Wow .. Now tell us about Chinese or Foriegn systems used in AK .. 

AK doesn't use a single Chinese system .. All of it is produced in house .. Even the French sight systems are produced by us !

Tell us about the designer of AK? The ERA? The armour (which was also exported to turkey),the smoothbore! The IMBS,The laser warning,jamming and detection systems,the EMP blinder/jammer system,the auto loader,the data connectivity,the C3 systems, etc etc..

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## Water Car Engineer

@DESERT FIGHTER



> View attachment 302441
> View attachment 302440



What are these picture supposed to prove? That it looks like other MBT 2000 models? Sure. The first one is distorted, it's squished down.



> Hahahaha Vihor was based on the T-84.. Which was based on the T-72.



Which your models, AK, MBT 2000, what have yous are derived from.

The Serbian designer deliberately trolled by writing, Vihor 2, on the turret. Really, it doesnt get any more hilarious than that.






Vihor1




T96




MBT2000




AK

Please dont tell me that AK doesnt come from Type 96 lineage, or have no Chinese involvement. You can just look at them and tell. It's just a platform, customized by you. No different to MKIs of India, or infact, the T90s of India.

Dude, look at the whole HIT line up, do I really need to say anything more? They're ALL license produced crap one way or another. From that crap Toyota/LR chassis designs, to modified M113 designs, to recent license production of small APCs. What makes you think something more sophisticated like a tank is any different? And you're going to tell me the Chinese based their MBT 2000 on your 'design'? 

What delusional world do you guys really live in?

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## nik22

@Water Car Engineer , not worth of your effort

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> 
> 
> What are these picture supposed to prove? That it looks like other MBT 2000 models? Sure. The first one is distorted, it's squished down.



Lol what ?


> Which your models, AK, MBT 2000, what have yous are derived from.


Type-90IIM was the basis of AK.. You are too stupid to understand that.




> The Serbian designer deliberately trolled by writing, Vihor 2, on the turret. Really, it doesnt get any more hilarious than that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vihor1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-96





Vihor had 2 prototypes;








The evolution of *Type-96*; type96G/A -- based on type-85II;










>



This is the VT1A the watered down export version with Chinese systems ..



> MBT2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AK




Lmao .. You posted a pic of Type-90II you jack.. This tank itself was a JV for Pak .. Which later evolved in Type-90IIM .. Which later became the basis of AK! AKs export versions : VT1A,Mbt-2000 etc.




> Please dont tell me that AK doesnt come from Type 96 lineage, or have no Chinese involvement. You can just look at them and tell. It's just a platform, customized by you. No different to MKIs of India, or infact, the T90s of India


.

Are you fukin retarded? Type-96? Dumbass what do you mean by "customising" ? AK was based on Type-90IIM which itself was a JV prototype fielded for Pak ...

AK doesn't have a single Chinese system and was designed by HIT.

MKIs? You assemble them with a few Israeli etc avionics .. T-90? That's a Russian tank whose parts are still being imported by India from Russia !

Please educate us more about AK.. @Dazzler. Check out this guy.


> Dude, look at the whole HIT line up, do I really need to say anything more? They're ALL license produced crap one way or another. From that crap Toyota/LR chassis designs,


What? Hahaha .. Dumbass what are chassis designs? The armoured vehicles used those "chassis" but not designs etc .. And HIT produces and exports several armoured vehicles .. Unlike india where you are still struggling with an assembled failures aka Arjun.



> To modified M113 designs, to recent license production of small APCs. What makes you think something more sophisticated like a tank is any different? And you're going to tell me the Chinese based their MBT 2000 on your 'design'?


Yeah my boy.. MBT-2000 is a Pak designed tank with Chinese subsystems -- marketed by HIT & NORINCO.



> What delusional world do you guys really live in?


Says the indian..



Water Car Engineer said:


> Dude, your AK is based on the Chinese MBT 2000, which the Chinese themselves took help from Serbian designers that worked on Vihor program.
> 
> The guy even trolled the Chinese in this pic, writing, Vihor 2 on the turret. The same guy was seen working on the AK program for obvious reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Arjun import? Engine, sights? You do the same. You dont have exact figures like what DRDO gives. So you have the luxury of saying it's 100% Pakistani, but we all know it's just as assembled as that Adam Pakistan car that failed.




And oh we did get in touch with Vladimir on a Serbian forum !

According to him he made 2-3 trips to Pak testing the integration systems of earlier AK versions..

Here
http://www.mycity-military.com/Oklopna-tehnika/Al-Khalid-tenk-Type-90-IIM-MBT-2000_4.html

His ID is "Esker222". Listen to what he says boy!

*He worked on Type-85s transmission in China*!

Type-85 (produced in Pak);







So much for your "vihor 2" nonsense.. Want more embarrassment?

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Vihor had 2 prototypes;
> View attachment 302503
> View attachment 302504




Umm, that turret design was made by them, it did exist.


















There are enough live specimen examples of same turret design, which would influence later Chinese models.




> Lmao .. You posted a pic of Type-90II you jack.. This tank itself was a JV for Pak .. Which later evolved in Type-90IIM.. Which later became the basis of AK! AKs export versions : VT1A,Mbt-2000 etc.



The design has obvious links back to previous Chinese models. From looks alone you can tell that.







type 85






AK






Type 96

They're all obviously from same Chinese stock. Without the ERA panels, it'll identical. What did you possibly design, or how did you fundamentally influence Chinese engineers in any way for MBT 2000? 



> Yeah my boy.. MBT-2000 is a Pak designed tank with Chinese subsystems -- marketed by HIT & NORINCO.



Lmao, omg. Please, what do the Chinese need from HIT, which all it has/does is license produce products? HIT is doing it again with a small APC.

You're going to say MBT 3000 is also Pak designed too, right?

The shell that is MBT2000 has existed before Pakistan, please, design proper MPV first.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> Umm, that turret design was made by them, it did exist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are enough live specimen examples of same turret design, which would influence later Chinese models.





Vladimir himself claims that he only worked on the T-96s transmission ;


Now I only see that the tank. I was the first foreigner to see this tank. While I was working in a factory near the HRF taxi. Now the factory is called HIT. Thirty kilometers from Islamabad. There are a few pictures here of the factory. Turned out to be a big fuss and panic when I ran out of the hall where I worked on other tanks, although it was strictly ordered to get out, they will come "something."
The biggest joke in the phone book as Islamabad and the surrounding area, you can find phone numbers (extensions ) from the factory HIT. Telephone number of on line conclusion of the dome, on the line of wiring therefore favoring, no warehouse, etc. Some part of the image in this part was done in Photoshop and I do not believe all the images. In several pictures the same tank. With the number 5. This is the number that looks like a heart inside out. Does this mean that they are no more. In the picture, which was probably painted in Multan, a place where the command of the armed forces, we can see two tanks where the numbers 3. In the first tank, this figure is second. The first part of the figure is covered with Pakistani flag. At the last tank in the type of the figure is the first, the second part of the figure is obscured by BDK-om. I know that the possibility of making a tank in a taxi several times higher than in their former Yugoslavia. I'd like to know how they were created. Best-trained, best educated and brightest officers, armored, whom I met in my life I met in the officer's club in Multan. U commands the armed forces of Pakistan. Can you imagine when Lieutenant General, Commander of the armed forces of Pakistan, which fly in his private jet, which I piloting Kandavala into the desert, where I worked, talk to me a few hours of the tank, and then I sat down the tank on the driver's seat and went to the tank in the desert. He drove it eight hours through the desert after the August pustnjskom hell where the sun is very easy to get blisters on his hand touching the tank. These images that could be seen were filmed in the desert Tamavala, a hundred kilometers from Bahawalpur. After my third visit to Pakistan, where I radio on the other tanks on the tank appeared their meteosenzor same as the M84 tank, which can be seen in some images. I have already written that we at Shalimar Hotel in Rawalpindi broke into the bag with the documentation. There were a few thousand dollars and schemes tank. Nothing is missing, but somehow soon thereafter appeared the same meteosenzor in their tank. Look at a lot of pictures. Greetings VladoGreetings and for the Pakistani military forum of which I am a member and where to find my texts.


------
Khalid.
While I was working in the factory tanks in the taxi *I saw the initial version of this tank. *Sad to see these paintings Chinese, Russian and one of my solution.
Painted on the training ground next to Bahawalpur, Tamavali in a cab, at the factory HIT and commands the armed forces in Multan.

-----

Ima ovdje finih sličica. Ali ima i finih laži. Kad se pogledaju slike, uporede ovi tekstovi, malo to sve uporedi i nađe se šupljin...
More

There are fine here thumbnails. But there are subtle lies. When one looks at the pictures , compare these texts , little compared ...
More
Swap to Bosnian
There are fine here thumbnails. But there are subtle lies. When one looks at the pictures , compare these texts , little compared to all and find the holes in these texts and images.
It is interesting that they put commands BDK with commanders . And to fill the 9 pieces for one minute to lock on to and fell , minimum must have a 30 volt in the tank . But since they have 4 batteries with 12 volts , but when they give gas to climb to 26 or 27 volts . But to rise to 30 volts it is only when some assholes with bushes on the shoulder to show how the tank works well . These texts written by some who expected higher rank because the tank works best in the world .
They have doubled the internal connections . One is not connected . But in one picture to see amplidinski drive . *This is the version that I worked on the Chinese tank T85 . Or can not solve hydraulics to power dome or not to swap the well-established system*


----

The design has obvious links back to previous Chinese models. From looks alone you can tell that.




> type 85
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type 96



You dont know jackshyt about the generations/evolutions of the respective tanks do you?

T-85>T-85II>T-85IIIM>T-96>T-96G/A!


T-85;






T-96/ZTZ-96;






T-96 production variant;






T-96G/A evolution;






Type-96G;






*
AK prototype based on T-90 series(which never went beyond prototype stages & was a JV but PA didn't accept
-- and gave birth to AK project)--- undergoing trails in Pak;*





*Production model; (basic)-- now AK-I is being produced .*







Tell us more .. About your "stupidity".



> They're all obviously from same Chinese stock. Without the ERA panels, it'll identical. What did you possibly design, or how did you fundamentally influence Chinese engineers in any way for MBT 2000?



Excellent display of your retardation.



> Lmao, omg. Please, what do the Chinese need from HIT, which all has/does is license produce products?



Why would they? Pak produced the AK .. The export model with Chinese system is also marketed by HIT & Norinco (Norinco makes money on that too).. While Pak offers AK-I version for export .. On which they don't!



> You're going to say MBT 3000 is also Pak designed too, right?



Dear retard .. MBT-3000 is a modernisation of mbt-3000.


> The shell that is MBT2000 has existed before Pakistan, please, design proper MPV first.



Please keep your useless trap shut .. As for MPV .. We actually do one..

Now come back when you produce a fukin tank before comparing Pak (an arms exporting nation) to a country that can't even produce shyt.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Right, the Chinese needed HIT to produce MBT 2000  for them, even though it's the Chinese who have been designing and working on tanks since the beginning of the cold war, not Pakistan.


Let the reality sink in girlfriend .. AK is a Pak project designed & produced in Pak by HIT .. Used by Pak & exported to several nations..

And I just whooped your curry behind above !




> Let's now look at some of HIT's products --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etc
> etc



I can again embarrass your putrid kind with the products you just posted (infant HIT produces many more -- you are too stupid to know that).

Nobody is claiming Hamza,Talha,Muaz etc are purely Pak products --- yes they are based on M-113 series .. Son.. Those APCs have different specifications .. Lengths,transmissions,tracks and suspension,troops carrying abilities,bigger engines,armour etc..

But a dummy like you wouldn't know.
Literally, all license produced, or lackluster modifications of those products.

The armoured vehicles (Old muhafiz & Muhafiz II) you posted aren't based on any existing designs .. Infact the ones you posted are actually no more in production ! And even than they used the chassis of SUVs .. Similarly the Israelis are producing light APCs like that on the chassis of other vehicles too.. The Wolf is based on the chassis of GMC trucks..

Raad again isn't based on any vehicle .. Rather a Pak design .. Unless your retardedness can prove me wrong?



> You really think these guys did anything substantial for the MBT 2000, which the Chinese couldnt?



Exhibition of your retardation .. How cute.



> Get those geniuses in HIT who managed to design a tank for a group of people that's been doing it since the cold war to produce a simple APC even. Because your boys in HIT need to license produce that as well.



Too fukin retarded to understand that they produced it for Pak and not China? Oh well
.. I know why .. Too frustrated after getting owned over your stupidity.



> View attachment 302582
> 
> 
> 
> Dragoon AFC



Produced under license .. Mentioned on the HIT official site .. Too retarded & blind to see?

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## Water Car Engineer

@DESERT FIGHTER


> And I just whooped your curry behind above !




Hardly, all I need to show are the garbage products of HIT like that catmobile to see who really designed what.




> Produced under license .. Mentioned on the HIT official site .. Too retarded & blind to see?




No shit, it's because your folks in HIT are incapable of producing a proper design of APC even. Why they need to go outside for license production.

Everything else by them are basically lackluster modifications off of license production models as well. And you expect people to believe Pak really designed a tank for the Chinese, please. They've been doing this from the early cold war. And putting much national effort to get those products rolling, get real.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> Right, the Chinese needed HIT to produce MBT 2000  for them, even though it's the Chinese who have been designing and working on tanks since the beginning of the cold war, not Pakistan. You're literally trying to convince people that some newbie taught a relatively established player.
> 
> Let's now look at some of HIT's products --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etc
> etc
> 
> Literally, all license produced, or lackluster modifications of those products.
> 
> You really think these guys did anything substantial for the MBT 2000, which the Chinese couldnt?
> 
> Get those geniuses in HIT who managed to design a tank for a group of people that's been doing it since the early cold war to produce a simple APC even. Because your boys in HIT need to license produce that as well.
> 
> 
> View attachment 302582
> 
> 
> 
> Dragoon AFC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Work of HIT, which designed a tank for the Chinese...Lol.



Come on boy.. At least post the real pic;


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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Come on boy.. At least post the real pic;
> 
> View attachment 302584
> View attachment 302585




Seriously shit, crude looking.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> 
> 
> Hardly, all I need to show are the garbage products of HIT like that catmobile to see who really designed what.



Just showed you your worth .. F... Tank expert ..

Down to oneliners and no substance .. What a pity.




> No shit, it's because your folks in HIT are incapable of producing a proper design of APC even. Why they need to go outside for license production


.

Apart from Dragoon none are produced under any license.. And are exported to several nations.. Unlike you poor sods... Still stuck with a shifty leopard copy.. Capped and grounded at 115-125.. What a pity.



> Everything else by them are basically lackluster modifications off of license production models as well. And you expect people to believe Pak really designed a tank for the Chinese, please. They've been doing this from the early cold war. And putting much national effort to get those products rolling, get real.








What a dumb .... .. After getting owned .. Lost his comprehension skills..

Why would HIT design a tank for China? When they designed it for Pak army? 



Water Car Engineer said:


> Seriously shit, crude looking.



if it works.. That's all that matters..

Try another failed Indian APC;









This ones a failed one based on T-55 body..


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## Water Car Engineer

> Apart from Dragoon none are produced under any license.. And are exported to several nations.. Unlike you poor sods... Still stuck with a shifty leopard copy.. Capped and grounded at 115-125.. What a pity.




I said license produced, or lackluster modifications of those products, which they are.



> Why would HIT design a tank for China? When they designed it for Pak army?



You said MBT2000 is a Pak designed product.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> This ones a failed one based on T-55 body..




Of course it will fail, it's useless when there are 1000s of BMPs. What use is that?

Indian private firms have several APC, MPVs. It's hilarious that they, who have only been around for couple of years, is making MPVs that looks better then that cat thing of yours.













etc
They have truck conversions like that cat thing -









etc

Now, they are going for frontline armored vehicles --













> And are exported to several nations.. Unlike you poor sods...



Congrats, really, you guys beat OFB in exports. I should give you your special Olympics medal now.

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## Perpendicular

Water Car Engineer said:


> Dude, your AK is based on the Chinese MBT 2000, which the Chinese themselves took help from Serbian designers that worked on Vihor program.
> 
> The guy even trolled the Chinese in this pic, writing, Vihor 2 on the turret. The same guy was seen working on the AK program for obvious reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Arjun import? Engine, sights? You do the same. You dont have exact figures like what DRDO gives. So you have the luxury of saying it's 100% Pakistani, but we all know it's just as assembled as that Adam Pakistan car that failed.


Not worth the effort mate, leave the retarded elite.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Perpendicular said:


> Not worth the effort mate, leave the retarded elite.



Shut up clown... Come up with substance or keep your hole shut.



Water Car Engineer said:


> I said license produced, or lackluster modifications of those products, which they are.



You gave 3 examples on last page .. Tell us on what Muhafiz or Raad or copied ? Or how is Talha a lacklustre modification? And yet export successes?



> You said MBT2000 is a Pak designed product.



God damn it! Boy you are one stubborn dumbass!

MBT-2000 is an export version of AK with Chinese systems .. Marketed by both Pak & China jointly .. Can't you get that through your thick indian skull.. Is that too hard to understand or comprehend?!





> Of course it will fail, it's useless when there are 1000s of BMPs. What use is that?


What use is it when you can't produce or or make it operational .. That failed due to technical mess ups my boy.




> Indian private firms have several APC, MPVs. It's hilarious that they, who have only been around for couple of years, is making MPVs that looks better then that cat thing of yours.




Produced under license from BAE & South Africans..




> They have truck conversions like that cat thing -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etc


I'm sure these light armoured vans can survive a 10kg IED..




> Now, they are going for frontline armored vehicles --



Wake me up when these people operational or in service.. You people brag a lot and have nothing to show .. Arjun itself is a perfect example.


> Congrats, really, you guys beat OFB in exports. I should give you your special Olympics medal now.



Calm down ..

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## Jai Bharat

Pakistan is a country that does not even produce its own Moped engine. Let alone their own cars.

Why would anyone think they are magically capable of producing more advanced military vehicles, rather than just some license production of Chinese modified Soviet-Era vehicles? It takes a special sort of delusion to convince yourself of that.

Meanwhile, TATA group made +665,100 Crores in revenue last year. That is the company that is now going to be making the FICV and WHAP vehicles for Indian armed forces in the near future.

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## Roybot

Water Car Engineer said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Work of HIT, which designed a tank for the Chinese...Lol.



I like how they have made whiskers on that contraption !

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## Water Car Engineer

@DESERT FIGHTER



> Produced under license from BAE & South Africans..



BAE is with Mahindra, that is a JV, I forgot to post that MRAP. The S. Africans themselves are using the driveline from AL's stallion platform for some of their MRAP designs.



> MBT-2000 is an export version of AK with Chinese systems .. Marketed by both Pak & China jointly .. Can't you get that through your thick indian skull.. Is that too hard to understand or comprehend?!



You said you designed AK, by yourself. And let the Chinese exported it under MBT2000? Or whatever nonsense you believe in? An established player is asking help from some newbie.  Yet, you have to license produced APCs. 



> Wake me up when these people operational or in service.. You people brag a lot and have nothing to show .. Arjun itself is a perfect example.



Expect it to be in service, the army itself is backing the program. And it was show cased in record time.



Roybot said:


> I like how they have made whiskers on that contraption !










An extreme shit take on a Juice one. IWI Wildcat.

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistani-cat-is-dead.347905/

The Pakistani cat thing is dead now.

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## Perpendicular

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Shut up clown... Come up with substance or keep your hole shut.
> 
> 
> 
> You gave 3 examples on last page .. Tell us on what Muhafiz or Raad or copied ? Or how is Talha a lacklustre modification? And yet export successes?
> 
> 
> 
> God damn it! Boy you are one stubborn dumbass!
> 
> MBT-2000 is an export version of AK with Chinese systems .. Marketed by both Pak & China jointly .. Can't you get that through your thick indian skull.. Is that too hard to understand or comprehend?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What use is it when you can't produce or or make it operational .. That failed due to technical mess ups my boy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Produced under license from BAE & South Africans..
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure these light armoured vans can survive a 10kg IED..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wake me up when these people operational or in service.. You people brag a lot and have nothing to show .. Arjun itself is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> Calm down ..


Hence I said retarded elite with a big hole.

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## Echo_419

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Come on boy.. At least post the real pic;
> 
> View attachment 302584
> View attachment 302585



Bhai aap Senior member ho. Thodi magnanimity dikhao aur iss argument koh kisi aur thread mein shift kardo


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER
> 
> 
> 
> BAE is with Mahindra, that is a JV, I forgot to post that MRAP. The S. Africans themselves are using the driveline from AL's stallion platform for some of their MRAP designs.



JV? Lol where big defence producers have Indian companies to produce their MRAPs under license .. Maybe you can an obsolete 120mm on them and use em as tanks now.


> You said you designed AK, by yourself. And let the Chinese exported it under MBT2000? Or whatever nonsense you believe in? An established player is asking help from some newbie.  Yet, you have to license produced APCs.



Haven't I already owned you by posting Specifications,diagrams of various generations and the posts of the Vihor designers ., should that itself make you stfu? Have you no shame ?

AK was designed and produced for Pak army not China .. It's inferior version with Chinese systems is being marketed by HIT & NORINCO jointly .. Too hard for you to understand? The frustrations must be killing you inside.

License produced APCs? Which ones ? The shitty BMPs you assemble ? Or the several types also exported by Pak?




> Expect it to be in service, the army itself is backing the program. And it was show cased in record time.





You know how many times I've heard such dialogues from your kind? It's getting ironic.




> An extreme shit take on a Juice one. IWI Wildcat.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/pakistani-cat-is-dead.347905/
> 
> The Pakistani cat thing is dead now.



Really? I'm sure the Israelis sent their vehicle to Pak.. And gave us the manufacturing rights..

Talking about extreme shit.. Well take a lot at the vehicles manufactured in your country.. Rolling turds ..


After getting owned .. Now you are down to oneliners and MRAPs .. Pathetic . But not unexpected ..

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> JV? Lol where big defence producers have Indian companies to produce their MRAPs under license .. Maybe you can an obsolete 120mm on them and use em as tanks now.




Yes, JV. Matter a fact, the JV company between Mahindra and BAE is done. But Mahindra still produces the MRAP.

The South Africans are themselves using Ashok Leyland's, driveline and engines on their new MRAP.

Show who TATA in licencing from.

Matter a fact, show me a company even remotely in the level of Ashok Leylond, TATA, or Mahindra in Pakistan. Show me a Pakistani truck design that doesnt look like shit. 



> Really? I'm sure the Israelis sent their vehicle to Pak.. And gave us the manufacturing rights..



They dont need to send any vehicles over for you try making a failed, shit design. If they gave your the rights to manufacture, it wouldnt have failed, or looked like shit.



> After getting owned .. Now you are down to oneliners and MRAPs .. Pathetic . But not unexpected ..




The guy getting owned is the person trying to convince people that an industry that cant even produce proper trucks, that a company that _failed_ to produce a MRAP(that looks like shit to begin with) NOW, produced a tank design back THEN, then to make it crazier this same company gave rights to the Chinese as JV partners to export this design of theirs. <<<<< Literally, no one believes that.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> Yes, JV. Matter a fact, the JV company between Mahindra and BAE is done. But Mahindra still produces the MRAP.
> 
> The South Africans are themselves using Ashok Leyland's, driveline and engines on their new MRAP.
> 
> Show who TATA in licencing from.
> 
> Matter a fact, show me a company even remotely in the level of Ashok Leylond, TATA, or Mahindra in Pakistan. Show me a Pakistani truck design that doesnt look like shit.
> 
> 
> 
> They dont need to send any vehicles over for you try making a failed, shit design. If they gave your the rights to manufacture, it wouldnt have failed, or looked like shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The guy getting owned is the person trying to convince people that an industry that cant even produce proper trucks, that a company that _failed_ to produce a MRAP(that looks like shit to begin with) NOW, produced a tank design back THEN, then to make it crazier this same company gave rights to the Chinese as JV partners to export this design of theirs. <<<<< Literally, no one believes that.



I feel sad for your frustration.. After getting owned you have come down to rants like a teenage girl on periods.. 

I can again own your behind like I did in previous posts.. But it doesn't matter.. You will pop up again and start ranting through your rectum.

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I feel sad for your frustration.. After getting owned you have come down to rants like a teenage girl on periods..
> 
> I can again own your behind like I did in previous posts.. But it doesn't matter.. You will pop up again and start ranting through your rectum.

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## Omega007

I though this thread was about Arjun MkII.


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## AyanRay

Omega007 said:


> I though this thread was about Arjun MkII.


 Nope, this is pdf

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## #hydra#

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Why u are so much obsessed with this North Korean dictator?


----------



## Zarvan



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## Water Car Engineer

#hydra# said:


> Why u are so much obsessed with this North Korean dictator?



Idk what you're talking about.


----------



## fsayed

Water Car Engineer said:


> Idk what you're talking about.


He is talking about ur profile picture


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Arjun's driver interface produced by TATA Power SED

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## Omega007

Water Car Engineer said:


> Arjun's driver interface produced by TATA Power SED



Neat!!Do you have photographs of the commander's and gunner's stations??

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## AMCA

Water Car Engineer said:


> Arjun's driver interface produced by TATA Power SED



Wow that's neatly done!!

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Arjun's driver interface produced by TATA Power SED


Wow, I'm impressed 


Link to the video bro?

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Wow, I'm impressed
> 
> 
> Link to the video bro?









----------------------------------------------------







16:00, MoD had to intervene to fix the serviceability issue.

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## Water Car Engineer

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2016/TF_Aug_2016_WEB.pdf

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2016/TF_Aug_2016_WEB.pdf



Kontakt 5 being license produced in India.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Kontakt 5 being license produced in India.



Links ? Proof?

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Kontakt 5 being license produced in India.




No it's not. Please actually look up DMRL before you even make retarded comments, as usual.

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## neza

When will the Arjun 2 be inducted and how many in numbers will be inducted?


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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> No it's not. Please actually look up DMRL before you even make retarded comments, as usual.


Prove it, there is no such thing as Indian ERA mate. Without any knowledge on the said topic I would say don't go there. 

Just a poor copy at best.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Prove it, there is no such thing as Indian ERA mate. Without any knowledge on the said topic I would say don't go there.
> 
> Just a poor copy at best.



How about you prove otherwise? Proof is DRDO producing it and comparing it's performance against T90's K5. What more do you want? I like how you come from license production from Russia, to a copy now.

DMRL is the same martrials wing that have produced Titanium sponge to specialized naval steel, both of which were restricted to India. I have no doubt they can produce ERA, they've done so with NERA, composite armor for tanks, IFV, and helicopters. Thanks.

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## Han Patriot

Dazzler said:


> Prove it, there is no such thing as Indian ERA mate. Without any knowledge on the said topic I would say don't go there.
> 
> Just a poor copy at best.


According to the official Indian reference page, wikipedia, the titanium sponge factory started production only in AUGUST 2015, that's like a few months ago.

So before that, all those material for the titanium components in Indian aerospace projects, etc, were ALL IMPORTED from CHINA, Russia or Japan. I can bet it's 90% Chinese due to the price and lead time.


----------



## GuardianRED

Han Patriot said:


> According to the official Indian reference page, wikipedia, the titanium sponge factory started production only in AUGUST 2015, that's like a few months ago.
> 
> So before that, all those material for the titanium components in Indian aerospace projects, etc, were ALL IMPORTED from CHINA, Russia or Japan. I can bet it's 90% Chinese due to the price and lead time.


August 2015?? few months? its almost a year now !.... what to edit your post? + your source please

Also 

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=explosive-reactive-armour.jsp link to other labs too

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## Han Patriot

GuardianRED said:


> August 2015?? few months? its almost a year now !.... what to edit your post? + your source please
> 
> Also
> 
> http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=explosive-reactive-armour.jsp link to other labs too


Almost a year is still not a year right? So isn't it a few months? Fine 11 months ago..LOL.

So up until 11 months ago there were no titanium sponge production in India. Stop showing me lab experiments....tell me when did production start.

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## GuardianRED

Han Patriot said:


> Almost a year is still not a year right? So isn't it a few months? Fine 11 months ago..LOL.
> 
> So up until 11 months ago there were no titanium sponge production in India. Stop showing me lab experiments....tell me when did production start.



_"According to the official Indian reference page, wikipedia, the titanium sponge factory started production only in AUGUST 2015, that's like a few months ago."_

I asked for your source!

+ The link wasn't for you

and so what that be used to import , Now we don't! ITS CALLED Progesss

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## nik141993

Han Patriot said:


> Almost a year is still not a year right? So isn't it a few months? Fine 11 months ago..LOL.
> 
> So up until 11 months ago there were no titanium sponge production in India. Stop showing me lab experiments....tell me when did production start.


11 month which is 1 month less than a year is few months for you ? & you mentioned in one post that india started producing titanium few month ago & in next post you asked to show when india started LMAO ...bada zahil aadmi hai tu

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## Han Patriot

GuardianRED said:


> _"According to the official Indian reference page, wikipedia, the titanium sponge factory started production only in AUGUST 2015, that's like a few months ago."_
> 
> I asked for your source!
> + The link wasn't for you
> and so what that be used to import , Now we don't! ITS CALLED Progesss


I just gave it in my previous post. Do you guys really want spoon feed every single time. I can't make a jet fighter, Dassault you have to ensure our brains can absorb your tech...come on!

Well, if you define tht as progress instead of incompetence. Then yay!
What others had been doing for decades, and you claiming 'indigenous' components made from imported material BEFORE August 2015, meant even your 'indigenous' ERA had been made from most probably Chinese titanium. LOL



nik141993 said:


> 11 month which is 1 month less than a year is few months for you ? & you mentioned in one post that india started producing titanium few month ago & in next post you asked to show when india started LMAO ...bada zahil aadmi hai tu


Yup, depends hw you define a few. I guess you don't understand sarcasm. That I can't help you.


----------



## GuardianRED

Han Patriot said:


> I just gave it in my previous post. Do you guys really want spoon feed every single time. I can't make a jet fighter, Dassault you have to ensure we can understand your tech...come on!
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, depends hw you define a few. I guess you don't understand sarcasm. That I can't help you.


You do know English yes? What are you talking about 

What link u posted? 

Whats Dassault got to do with anything?

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## Han Patriot

GuardianRED said:


> You do know English yes? What are you talking about
> 
> What link u posted?
> 
> Whats Dassault got to do with anything?


I give up...I suppose the English education in your country don't teach sarcasm, or you don't know the case where your Rafale deal was postponed for years because you keep on forcing the french to make sure HAL can absorb the tech if the deal goes through. Hence the reference to SPOONFEEDING!! Comprehendo amigo?


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## GuardianRED

Han Patriot said:


> I give up...I suppose the English education in your country don't teach sarcasm, or you don't know the case where your Rafale deal was postponed for years because you keep on forcing the french to make sure HAL can absorb the tech if the deal goes through. Hence the reference to SPOONFEEDING!! Comprehendo amigo?


Wow... u lack the proper use of SARCASM or u don't know the meaning of it. Im very sure it is BOTH + also u lack the comprehension of staying with the topic! - started with Titanium material, but ending up with spoon feeding?? with no context in between.

U must have wasted all ur time with the education u had !

Don't worry ! im sure u will get better!

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## Dazzler

Kontakt-5 on T-72B3









DRDO'S MK.II reactive armor, 








From Nii stali website, 

" «CONTACT-5» INTEGRATED ERA SYSTEM
The system is designed to improve protection of T-72, T-90, T-80 tanks and their modifications. The system reduces armor piercing capabilities of ATGM by 60%, of RPG by 90% and of kinetic energy AT ammunition (APFSDS) by 20%. The key component of the system is 4S22 ERA panel." 

http://www.niistali.ru/en/products-and-services/#RELICT

where is the difference?


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Kontakt-5 on T-72B3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO'S MK.II reactive armor,



What are you trying to prove?

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## Dazzler

its just a K-5 copy produced by DRDO, nothing super duper as some fanboys make it out to be.


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## Echo_419

Dazzler said:


> its just a K-5 copy produced by DRDO, nothing super duper as some fanboys make it out to be.



False


----------



## Dazzler

Echo_419 said:


> False



bring your evidence.


----------



## kaykay

Which APS is used by Arjun tanks? Also whether it is a soft kill APS or both soft as well as hard kill APS like Trophy or LEDS-150. We know all T-90s in our inventory uses LEDS-150 which has both soft as well as hard kill capabilities.


----------



## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> its just a K-5 copy produced by DRDO, nothing super duper as some fanboys make it out to be.



Do you have any proof for your claims? DRDO is not a defense equipment production agency.



Dazzler said:


> bring your evidence.



The only evidence needed here is the official bimonthly technology focus magazine. If you want prove that it's the K-5,the burden of proof lies on you.

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## Dazzler

gslv mk3 said:


> Do you have any proof for your claims? DRDO is not a defense equipment production agency.
> 
> 
> 
> The only evidence needed here is the official bimonthly technology focus magazine. If you want prove that it's the K-5,the burden of proof lies on you.



Lol, thats some reference you have there. 

It is so visible, why is it a pain for your to acknowleage the obvious.


----------



## GuardianRED

Dazzler said:


> its just a K-5 copy produced by DRDO, nothing super duper as some fanboys make it out to be.





Dazzler said:


> Lol, thats some reference you have there.
> 
> It is so visible, why is it a pain for your to acknowleage the obvious.



U do know that if it looks the same it does not mean IT IS THE SAME!!!!

The ERA slab is of local make and design , but has the same setup (installation and setting) as that of the other! - Kontakt - 5

Its like saying the F-2 is a copy of the F-16

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## Dazzler

GuardianRED said:


> U do know that if it looks the same it does not mean IT IS THE SAME!!!!
> 
> The ERA slab is of local make and design , but has the same setup (installation and setting) as that of the other! - Kontakt - 5



A naive reply to say the least. how come it is compatible with the same mbts too? Before you start jumping "Arjun", mate, arjun turret is not properly covered as the turret geometry was not meant to be covered with K-5 initially. Then, to please you fanboys and guilible nation, they just pasted it wherever they could. Walla! the mightly DRDO MK-2 ERA is ready!


----------



## GuardianRED

Dazzler said:


> A naive reply to say the least. how come it is compatible with the same mbts too? Before you start jumping "Arjun", mate, arjun turret is not properly covered as the turret geometry was not meant to be covered with K-5 initially. Then, to please you fanboys and guilible nation, they just pasted it wherever they could. Walla! the mightly DRDO MK-2 ERA is ready!


And u are a consultant!!!????? The arjun isn't covered? thats is your argument!! and u proved it by pictures??? thats it!!!! r u serious??!!!!

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## gslv mk3

Dazzler said:


> Lol, thats some reference you have there.



DRDO sources are far more credible than some random TTA on a defense forum who manufactures his owns theories like 'Tejas Airframe shivers past 6g'.

Either or proper proof or stop the unnecessary trolling.

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## Echo_419

gslv mk3 said:


> DRDO sources are far more credible than some random TTA on a defense forum who manufactures his owns theories like 'Tejas Airframe shivers past 6g'.
> 
> Either or proper proof or stop the unnecessary trolling.



Don't bother, this is the same dude who claimed his claim is more authentic than CAG

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## R!CK

Dazzler said:


> Kontakt-5 on T-72B3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO'S MK.II reactive armor,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Nii stali website,
> 
> " «CONTACT-5» INTEGRATED ERA SYSTEM
> The system is designed to improve protection of T-72, T-90, T-80 tanks and their modifications. The system reduces armor piercing capabilities of ATGM by 60%, of RPG by 90% and of kinetic energy AT ammunition (APFSDS) by 20%. The key component of the system is 4S22 ERA panel."
> 
> http://www.niistali.ru/en/products-and-services/#RELICT
> 
> where is the difference?



Using this logic, can u please confirm that the Chinese have copied all the equipments they have made from others?

If it looks like Something, it might be the Same thing yea?

On topic: If you really think Russians will share their armour tech with anyone, then you might need more research about Russian industry. I wish you used your title to spread your wealth of knowledge rather than hate. I have high respect for few Pakistani and Chinese equipments based on the merits of their efforts regardless of the fact that is from Pakistan or China. It's easy to point fingers at others, but remember while u point 1 finger at others, 4 fingers point towards you. 

Good day!

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## desimorty

> Links ? Proof?


I don't know of his source but its known that DRDO works closely with Russian labs. ERA is a non issue. It has been readily available for a long time and the Russians lead the research.
ERA MKII from DRDO labs is basically is the Russian ERA design with a lot of help from Russia but produced using local steal, exp from India. 
That being said, its very good ERA, India saves money on RnD to persue other avenues for armor dev. 
Considering the bigger picture, working with Russians helps India. While Dazzeler probability trying to highlight failures of India or Arjun it should be noted that Indian Armour is actually the best in Asia aside for Russian quantity.

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## Water Car Engineer

jatt said:


> *I don't know of his source but its known that DRDO works closely with Russian labs. ERA is a non issue. It has been readily available for a long time and the Russians lead the research.
> ERA MKII from DRDO labs is basically is the Russian ERA design with a lot of help from Russia but produced using local steal, exp from India. *
> That being said, its very good ERA, India saves money on RnD to persue other avenues for armor dev.
> Considering the bigger picture, working with Russians helps India. While Dazzeler probability trying to highlight failures of India or Arjun it should be noted that Indian Armour is actually the best in Asia aside for Russian quantity.



Right, where were those Russian labs when they refused the barrel, or a section of turret armor on the T90? Those labs were no where to be found, still no where to be found because India had to find local alternatives instead of importing them from Russia.




Dazzler said:


> Kontakt-5 on T-72B3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO'S MK.II reactive armor,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Nii stali website,
> 
> " «CONTACT-5» INTEGRATED ERA SYSTEM
> The system is designed to improve protection of T-72, T-90, T-80 tanks and their modifications. The system reduces armor piercing capabilities of ATGM by 60%, of RPG by 90% and of kinetic energy AT ammunition (APFSDS) by 20%. The key component of the system is 4S22 ERA panel."
> 
> http://www.niistali.ru/en/products-and-services/#RELICT
> 
> where is the difference?




What did you just prove? First you come from license production from Russia, to a copy now. There's a difference between the two.














They can do what they please with this property, this includes scaling their design to fit onto a much bigger tank.

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## Han Patriot

Dazzler said:


> its just a K-5 copy produced by DRDO, nothing super duper as some fanboys make it out to be.


Yup, the Indians are geniuses, they suddenly dream about ERA, and all the technologies got downloaded into their super brains. This coming from the same guys who had never made a tank before.


----------



## GuardianRED

Han Patriot said:


> Yup, the Indians are geniuses, they suddenly dream about ERA, and all the technologies got downloaded into their super brains. This coming from the same guys who had never made a tank before.


Sad ... and i though u are learning!.... but No... still lack the intelligence!... U have REALLY REALLY wasted u education!

Do some research before commenting!

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## desimorty

> Right, where were those Russian labs when they refused the barrel, or a section of turret armor on the T90? Those labs were no where to be found, still no where to be found because India had to find local alternatives instead of importing them from Russia.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-57#ixzz4FG16yEnb


Sometimes the legal process gets in the way. Which is why the big guys step in. Remember the Arihant. Do you think it would be possible with out Russian assistance? If it was, it would have turned out to be a lemon like the Early PLAN SSN.
The barrel tech, was most likely a technical issue. Its about the resources ie steal. It needs to be local, so a direct copy is impossible considering the metallurgy difference and price difference. Russians are always under advisory role official or under the table. The is why Kanchan is used on the T-90 instead of Russian stuff. 
But yea, keep thinking DRDO is too stupid. They are corrupt but they are not stupid. They are engineers and PHD holders some of the best in the field if not they know some one who is.
Why would they not work with foreign labs to re-invent domestic solution? Thats like 90% what DRDO has done.
Only difference is now the funding is coming in and infrastructure is being set up still including manufacturing support.
The AGNI SLBM would that have been possible with out Russian involvement? Considering the budget and stellar success.
The Russians are not giving this for free. But they are giving a pretty good deal considering what they provide others. This is nowhere near what US or anyother global partner provides for India.

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## gslv mk3

jatt said:


> The AGNI SLBM would that have been possible with out Russian involvement?


There is no Agni SLBM


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## desimorty

> Yup, the Indians are geniuses, they suddenly dream about ERA, and all the technologies got downloaded into their super brains. This coming from the same guys who had never made a tank before.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-57#ixzz4FG78UpSa


Indians made and mounted the first tank in the middle ages with war elephants mounted with Canons on the back. Low IQ who now?

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## Water Car Engineer

jatt said:


> Sometimes the legal process gets in the way. Which is why the big guys step in. Remember the Arihant. Do you think it would be possible with out Russian assistance? If it was, it would have turned out to be a lemon like the Early PLAN SSN.
> The barrel tech, was most likely a technical issue. Its about the resources ie steal. It needs to be local, so a direct copy is impossible considering the metallurgy difference and price difference. Russians are always under advisory role official or under the table. The is why Kanchan is used on the T-90 instead of Russian stuff.
> But yea, keep thinking DRDO is too stupid. They are corrupt but they are not stupid. They are engineers and PHD holders some of the best in the field if not they know some one who is.
> Why would they not work with foreign labs to re-invent domestic solution? Thats like 90% what DRDO has done.
> Only difference is now the funding is coming in and infrastructure is being set up still including manufacturing support.
> The AGNI SLBM would that have been possible with out Russian involvement? Considering the budget and stellar success.
> The Russians are not giving this for free. But they are giving a pretty good deal considering what they provide others. This is nowhere near what US or anyother global partner provides for India.




I am aware of Arihant, but I am also know what's been disclosed to us thus far regarding the T90.

That includes the year+ long wait on getting the documents from Russia. When the documents came, they were all in Russian. Translating them took year+. When that was well and done, they didnt transfer certain tech for the barrel, or the armoring for a key portion of the turret. The armoring of the turret was a particular problem for the production of the T90.

This has nothing to do with metallurgy bs. It was them not giving the tech, period. They never changed their position from this, and the industry was brought in to rectify the problems with their tech transfer production.

Of course DRDO's would use what's at hand to them(K5), but I doubt Russia willingly gave any tech for ERA or the new NERA. They sure as hell didnt with the other aforementioned things.

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## Han Patriot

jatt said:


> I don't know of his source but its known that DRDO works closely with Russian labs. ERA is a non issue. It has been readily available for a long time and the Russians lead the research.
> ERA MKII from DRDO labs is basically is the Russian ERA design with a lot of help from Russia but produced using local steal, exp from India.
> That being said, its very good ERA, India saves money on RnD to persue other avenues for armor dev.
> Considering the bigger picture, working with Russians helps India. While Dazzeler probability trying to highlight failures of India or Arjun it should be noted that Indian Armour is actually the best in Asia aside for Russian quantity.


Well at least you are the first Indian I know to admit Russian 'help. Even the DMR steel was basically just a Russian AB steel copy.


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## desimorty

> Well at least you are the first Indian I know to admit Russian 'help. Even the DMR steel was basically just a Russian AB steel copy.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/arjun-ii...dates-discussion.292466/page-58#ixzz4FYvsx5ni


Not knowing informed people is not excuse for your own ignorance. Or perhaps its your low IQ?

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## Perpendicular

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/760903323138478080

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## MimophantSlayer

Perpendicular said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/760903323138478080



Any pics?


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## Skull and Bones

cyclops said:


> Any pics?

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## Water Car Engineer

Skull and Bones said:


>




That's not it. The one being mentioned is new.

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## Skull and Bones

Water Car Engineer said:


> That's not it. The one being mentioned is new.



This was one featured in the mk II only couple of months ago.

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## Water Car Engineer

Skull and Bones said:


> This was one featured in the mk II only couple of months ago.




It's been shown a long while back. It's assembled by OFB, but the OEM isnt from India. There's a passive defence system as well for tanks that's been made. The current system is from Israel. The commander sight is already localized. Originally it was from outside as well.

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## Skull and Bones

Water Car Engineer said:


> It's been shown a long while back. It's assembled by OFB, but the OEM isnt from India. There's a passive defence system as well for tanks that's been made. The current system is from Israel. The commander sight is already localized. Originally it was from outside as well.



Then I'm totally unaware about that.


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## Water Car Engineer

Skull and Bones said:


> Then I'm totally unaware about that.




Yeah, they're slowly localizing some of the subsystem it seems.

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## Abingdonboy

Skull and Bones said:


>


This is a naval RCIWS that the OFB licence produces but it isn't the final solution, the DRDO were always intending to develop their own RCIWS in-house for land systems.



Water Car Engineer said:


> Yeah, there's slowly localizing some of the subsystem it seems.


It needs to be done so as to bring down the unit cost (the early MK.1s were costing the IA >$7mn/unit).

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> This is a naval RCIWS that the OFB licence produces but it isn't the final solution, the DRDO were always intending to develop their own RCIWS in-house for land systems.




You have any more info on the new one? Cause I wasnt aware of it being developed. I didnt know about the new commander sight, defence suite, either.


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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> You have any more info on the new one? Cause I wasnt aware of it being developed. I didnt know about the new commander sight, defence suite, either.


I knew the DRDO were working on the new RCIWS because when I commented on how god awful the idea was to have this naval RCIWS on the Mk.2 to a friend of mine who visits defence expos all over the world he told me that this was a temporary solution only and used to validate the console and intergration within the vehicle but that the production MK.2 would have a very different system developed by DRDO.

I'm not aware of its specs or any details other than it is based on an Israeli design (AFAIK).

As for the commander sight and EW/defence systems, DRDO is actively indigenising pretty much everything it possibly can (across the board).

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> I knew the DRDO were working on the new RCIWS because when I commented on how god awful the idea was to have this naval RCIWS on the Mk.2 to a friend of mine who visits defence expos all over the world he told me that this was a temporary solution only and used to validate the console and intergration within the vehicle but that the production MK.2 would have a very different system developed by DRDO.
> 
> I'm not aware of its specs or any details other than it is based on an Israeli design (AFAIK).
> *
> As for the commander sight and EW/defence systems, DRDO is actively indigenising pretty much everything it possibly can (across the board)*.




Yeah, they are.

We already know how they look.

1.)










2.)






3.)








> *LASTEC has designed and developed a laser warning and countermeasure system for Armoured Fighting Vehicle (AFVs). A LWS is capable of handling multiple type of laser threats and has an operational range of more than 6 km for laser designator type of laser threat. After detecting the laser threat along with its direction, it also has the capability to generate trigger signal to activate the grenade launcher for firing of smoke grenade in the direction of laser threat to obscure the platform under threat. Technology of the LWS has been transferred to BEL, Pune.*

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Yeah, they are.
> 
> We already know how they look.
> 
> 1.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3.)


I was hoping the Mk.2 would also feature a "hard kill" countermeasure system off the shelf like Trophy but apparently DRDO are working on their own (it might not be ready for the first Mk.2 entering service).


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> I was hoping the Mk.2 would also feature a "hard kill" countermeasure system off the shelf like Trophy but apparently DRDO are working on their own (it might not be ready for the first Mk.2 entering service).




The passive system is completely certified. I think the active system will make it to FMBT, honestly. But yeah, another active program under progress.

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> The passive system is completely certified. I think the active system will make it to FMBT, honestly. But yeah, another active program under progress.


The soft kill/passive system for the MK.2 is certified but I think a hard kill/active system should be a must and not just for the MBTs but the FICV.

+ I wonder how much of these systems being indigenised by the DRDO make their way onto the FICVs? As part of the FICV I beleive the sensors and weapons are "user nominated", surely for ease of support/logistics it makes the most sense to go for maximum commonality between these next gen vehicles?

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## Mujraparty

desi Excalibur in works ...?/

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## ravinderpalrulez

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yg46m0xp...kpW5MPAopvisAm7Cca6QwCLcB/s1600/TANK+EX-3.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bl_lI2n5...JK8XwNwPsdbwaZCd0gEcACLcB/s1600/TANK+EX-4.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4Lbdnc8l...6KvuhTlLGgbFHPoPZGjvgCLcB/s1600/TANK+EX-5.jpg
some impromptu photoshopping above to visualise how a modern-day TANK EX would look like.


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## Omega007

eowyn said:


> desi Excalibur in works ...?/



It certainly appears to be so although, the CEP of 50 mtr seems to be too much for a so called 'precision guided' munition.I mean you can achieve similar if not better accuracy even with unguided shells through the usage of a modern digital FCS packing a high quality ballistic computer and meteorological sensors.


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## mkb95

Various munitions under development or trials by DRDO

1. Nipun - Soft target blast munition (development completed, offered for user trials)

2. Vibhav - Anti-tank point attack munition (lethality trials and desert trial completed)

3. Vishal - Anti-tank bar munition (dynamic trials with BMP/AFV, explosive train trials and desert trials completed)

4. Ulka - Jumping fragmentation munition (moulding trials ongoing)

5. Parth - Directional fragmentation module (demo trials completed, field trial ongoing)

6. ABG - 40mm low velocity Air Burst Grenade which can be fired from UBGL (flight tested in 2015, ABG fuze evaluated in dynamic trial with flash pallet in time mode)
source- https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Hassan Guy

Oh, there still trying to build a tank.....

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## Water Car Engineer

Hassan Guy said:


> Oh, there still trying to build a tank.....



It's built, and in trials. Yes.






Series 12 Development flight test of CLGM capable of being fired from 120 mm cannon and a tripod were held in March 2015. Series 13 trials were held in september 2015, to validate mid-course guidance with INS-MEMS guidance and evaluation of seeker.

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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## Water Car Engineer



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## wiseone2

Hassan Guy said:


> Oh, there still trying to build a tank.....


it is not like anyone is attacking India in a manner that requires tanks to repel them


----------



## Hindustani78

Main Battle Tank Arjun rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi on August 7,2004. | Photo Credit:  — Photo: Bijoy Ghosh


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> It's built, and in trials. Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Series 12 Development flight test of CLGM capable of being fired from 120 mm cannon and a tripod were held in March 2015. Series 13 trials were held in september 2015, to validate mid-course guidance with INS-MEMS guidance and evaluation of seeker.



it's being trialed and trialed for an eternity.

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## SDS1

Dazzler said:


> it's being trialed and trialed for an eternity.


lol, around 300+ so called PAK tank which is made under lic from other country is called by PAK a successful tank
VS 
250+ Arjuna tank which is inducted , is called failed tank.


A new improved, tank which Mark-II version is rejected by PAK army and looking for new tank of foreign origin 

VS 

Improved designed tank, MK-II which will go for induction after testing....


This tell many things about PAK posters knowledges,

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SDS1 said:


> lol, around 300+ so called PAK tank which is made under lic from other country is called by PAK a successful tank




Mind telling us about license ? Or should I bitchslap you over your stupidity.





> VS
> 250+ Arjuna tank which is inducted , is called failed tank.



Too bad only 125 in service to save face... And those too grounded from time to time.



> A new improved, tank which Mark-II version is rejected by PAK army and looking for new tank of foreign origin



Again the moron making retarded claims... AK-II a 1500 HP powered tank is under development and confirmed by HIT at IDEAS 2016 and on their website.




> VS
> 
> Improved designed tank, MK-II which will go for induction after testing....



Been hearing about it since years now.


> This tell many things about PAK posters knowledges,



You gonna get your behind handed to you by the guy @Dazzler you quoted.

In fact he's going to make you lick your own spit on Arjun.


----------



## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Mind telling us about license ? Or should I bitchslap you over your stupidity.



lol you tank is of Chinese one, by changing name to can only make your country people fool like PAF mushtaq trainer , PAK plane , in fact is lic production , like India do with SU-30MKI but do not change name and make its own country ppl fool calling Indian SU-30. 

Jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990s. The original prototype was known as the MBT-2000. Around 310 Al Khalid MBTs were produced by 2014 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khalid_tank

you must be having heart attack after you claimed 500 Al-Khlid tanks reduced to 300 units 




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Too bad only 125 in service to save face... And those too grounded from time to time.



last Arjun units was delivered in and Mk-II already cleared trials in 2014 and since then production started of MK-II for another batch of 124 units and also follow on another 118 units follow on order 

Which make its more then 250 Units india planning to inducted a failed tank 

VS a successful tank which was stopped production after 300 Units.......




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Again the moron making retarded claims... AK-II a 1500 HP powered tank is under development and confirmed by HIT at IDEAS 2016 and on their website.



that why ,you testing foreign tanks


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

SDS1 said:


> lol you tank is of Chinese one, by changing name to can only make your country people fool like PAF mushtaq trainer , PAK plane , in fact is lic production , like India do with SU-30MKI but do not change name and make its own country ppl fool calling Indian SU-30.



Have had enough of your chutiyapa talk facts not nonsense.


> Jointly developed by Pakistan and China during the 1990s. The original prototype was known as the MBT-2000. Around 310 Al Khalid MBTs were produced by 2014
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khalid_tank
> 
> you must be having heart attack after you claimed 500 Al-Khlid tanks reduced to 300 units


 
Pak developed AK based on Type-90IIM series... Chinese developed the Z series off it..
MBT-2000 is the name of the export variant... 

Do enlighten us about the Chinese systems used in the AK Btwn...

Would love you own you.



> last Arjun units was delivered in and Mk-II already cleared trials in 2014 and since then production started of MK-II for another batch of 124 units and also follow on another 118 units follow on order



Did I say otherwise ?

When was the Arjun project started between ? In the 80s... Designed by whom? Germans .. Based on what? Leopard 1..

60% is imported from Foriegn vendors 


https://www.google.com.pk/amp/amp.i...highest-import-content-missiles-lowest-670042

Has remained grounded since its inducted (and still is).. With more than 90 technical issues;



http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...vice-not-operational/articleshow/47103764.cms

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...arjun-army-imported-components-drdo/70963382/



http://m.timesofindia.com/city/pune...operationalised-soon/articleshow/56463651.cms







> Which make its more then 250 Units india planning to inducted a failed tank



Which makes only 125 units and that too remain grounded.



> VS a successful tank which was stopped production after 300 Units.......



Or maybe you are a moron.. And effectively proving it by embarrassing yourself.
And it's production is over 350.


> that why ,you testing foreign tanks



Because we have to replace a lot of tanks .. And can't do that with expensive 1500hp tanks in a short time..

Knock yourself out;

http://quwa.org/2016/11/27/overview-al-khalid-2-main-battle-tank-program/

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## Water Car Engineer

Alright, no one cares about AK, AK 6, AK 10 whatever. Keep this discussion in another thread.

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## punit

Hassan Guy said:


> Oh, there still trying to build a tank.....


yeah .. the easier way is a to buy a Chinese/ukrainian tank and give it a tough sounding Arabic Name !! And the AL -Saga continues !



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Have had enough of your chutiyapa talk facts not nonsense.
> 
> 
> Pak developed AK based on Type-90IIM series... Chinese developed the Z series off it..
> MBT-2000 is the name of the export variant...
> 
> Do enlighten us about the Chinese systems used in the AK Btwn...
> 
> Would love you own you.
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say otherwise ?
> 
> When was the Arjun project started between ? In the 80s... Designed by whom? Germans .. Based on what? Leopard 1..
> 
> 60% is imported from Foriegn vendors
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com.pk/amp/amp.i...highest-import-content-missiles-lowest-670042
> 
> Has remained grounded since its inducted (and still is).. With more than 90 technical issues;
> 
> 
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...vice-not-operational/articleshow/47103764.cms
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...arjun-army-imported-components-drdo/70963382/
> 
> 
> 
> http://m.timesofindia.com/city/pune...operationalised-soon/articleshow/56463651.cms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which makes only 125 units and that too remain grounded.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe you are a moron.. And effectively proving it by embarrassing yourself.
> And it's production is over 350.
> 
> 
> Because we have to replace a lot of tanks .. And can't do that with expensive 1500hp tanks in a short time..
> 
> Knock yourself out;
> 
> http://quwa.org/2016/11/27/overview-al-khalid-2-main-battle-tank-program/


yeah Joint Development ! got it !

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## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Have had enough of your chutiyapa talk facts not nonsense.



havnt your called your those planes your PAK planes ??? prove me wrong? These are facts ....



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pak developed AK based on Type-90IIM series... Chinese developed the Z series off it..
> MBT-2000 is the name of the export variant...
> Do enlighten us about the Chinese systems used in the AK Btwn...
> 
> Would love you own you.


Well ... PAK name same plane JF-17 , and Chinese called these plane FC-1..... same planes but different name.




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Did I say otherwise ?
> 
> When was the Arjun project started between ? In the 80s... Designed by whom? Germans .. Based on what? Leopard 1..
> 
> 60% is imported from Foriegn vendors


Yes , Design philosophy is based on the Germans tank design, and its designed by Indian. J-10 was based on F-16 Design , so J-10 mused designed by US also ?

Yes even your Tanks also have many Imported components? engine etc , you should name which component is your in your tank and not under Lic production ?

Indian can make Tanks engines but Due to less number of tanks required India is not interested in making engines. but now it started developing own engines for future tanks.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> https://www.google.com.pk/amp/amp.i...highest-import-content-missiles-lowest-670042
> 
> Has remained grounded since its inducted (and still is).. With more than 90 technical issues;



90 technical improvements and not issues , these are regular and weapons always have scope of improvements, all Major issues are closed in MK-II version , which is now under production

Tank Engine of 1500 HP Cummins QSK-38 turbocharged diesel unit, is also under testing / trial ....., most of tank MK-II now made in India.




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...vice-not-operational/articleshow/47103764.cms
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...arjun-army-imported-components-drdo/70963382/
> 
> 
> 
> http://m.timesofindia.com/city/pune...operationalised-soon/articleshow/56463651.cms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which makes only 125 units and that too remain grounded.



not grounded its serving with units....



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Or maybe you are a moron.. And effectively proving it by embarrassing yourself.
> And it's production is over 350.
> 
> Because we have to replace a lot of tanks .. And can't do that with expensive 1500hp tanks in a short time..
> 
> Knock yourself out;
> 
> http://quwa.org/2016/11/27/overview-al-khalid-2-main-battle-tank-program/




you are producing since 2001 and only 350 units after 15 years and since your AK-II failed you are testing new tanks from UK , China etc. isnt true?

yes you need to replace lot of tanks and since after 15 yes only able to deploy 350 units.

India already now started producing MK-II (improved version) Plus further developing FMBT ...

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## Water Car Engineer

SDS1 said:


> havnt your called your those planes your PAK planes ??? prove me wrong? These are facts ....
> 
> 
> Well ... PAK name same plane JF-17 , and Chinese called these plane FC-1..... same planes but different name.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes , Design philosophy is based on the Germans tank design, and its designed by Indian. J-10 was based on F-16 Design , so J-10 mused designed by US also ?
> 
> Yes even your Tanks also have many Imported components? engine etc , you should name which component is your in your tank and not under Lic production ?
> 
> Indian can make Tanks engines but Due to less number of tanks required India is not interested in making engines. but now it started developing own engines for future tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 90 technical improvements and not issues , these are regular and weapons always have scope of improvements, all Major issues are closed in MK-II version , which is now under production
> 
> Tank Engine of 1500 HP Cummins QSK-38 turbocharged diesel unit, is also under testing / trial ....., most of tank MK-II now made in India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not grounded its serving with units....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you are producing since 2001 and only 350 units after 15 years and since your AK-II failed you are testing new tanks from UK , China etc. isnt true?
> 
> yes you need to replace lot of tanks and since after 15 yes only able to deploy 350 units.
> 
> India already now started producing MK-II (improved version) Plus further developing FMBT ...





No need to go on about this, it's been discussed.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

SDS1 said:


> havnt your called your those planes your PAK planes ??? prove me wrong? These are facts ....



Sure son.. Pak produced the safari and had rights over it... Years later we produced a new variant bigger in size,payload,endurance,avionics etc and exported hundreds ... Over 62 last years alone.


It's like Israeli Galile rifle.. Based on the AK.


> Well ... PAK name same plane JF-17 , and Chinese called these plane FC-1..... same planes but different name.



Nomenclatures differ sunny... A lot of countries do that..



> Yes , Design philosophy is based on the Germans tank design, and its designed by Indian. J-10 was based on F-16 Design , so J-10 mused designed by US also ?



Really? Kraus Maffei who designed the tank isn't Indian its German...
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/india-took-35-years-make-its-first-tank-it-was-total-18499


Leopard






Arjun







F-16





J-10









Even if somehow one even considers J-10 being based on F-16... It still Fukin works.



> Yes even your Tanks also have many Imported components? engine etc , you should name which component is your in your tank and not under Lic production ?


 and Arjun is 60% imported still....
And so is its engine etc.




> Indian can make Tanks engines but Due to less number of tanks required India is not interested in making engines. but now it started developing own engines for future tanks.



And that's why India bought 1000 t-90s from Russia instead..



> 90 technical improvements and not issues , these are regular and weapons always have scope of improvements, all Major issues are closed in MK-II version , which is now under production




Aww.. Poor chap doesn't know that technical flaws =/= upgrades... But flaws... Which can't be upgraded ..




> Tank Engine of 1500 HP Cummins QSK-38 turbocharged diesel unit, is also under testing / trial ....., most of tank MK-II now made in India.


Puttar see above even your previous mk-2 has been under testing since years:





> not grounded its serving with units....



Defence

*Army's fleet of Arjun tanks face technical issues; major proportion of 124 tanks in service not operational*


*Even mk2 which is still under t sting or development is facing criticism lol;*

*https://www.google.com.pk/amp/m.ind...hief-says-they-missed-the-point/1/629489.html*





> you are producing since 2001 and only 350 units after 15 years and since your AK-II failed you are testing new tanks from UK , China etc. isnt true?



Which tank did Pak test from uk?

And the tests were conducted last year.. I just posted a video link of HITs confirmation on AK-II.. Which will be a bigger,powerful tank than Oplot M etc who are at max in league with AK-I.


AK-I itself is an upgraded variant of the AK;





And we are rollin out over 500 AZs too;







As per 2014 report.


> yes you need to replace lot of tanks and since after 15 yes only able to deploy 350 units.



Financial constraints kiddo..

Even than AKs low tech variants have been exported to several countries at a price of almost 4 million a pop.


> India already now started producing MK-II (improved version) Plus further developing FMBT ...



Wake me up when they actually enter service.

Almost 4 decades and even 125 produced are grounded..LOL

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## Rashid Mahmood

How many Armour regiments have Arjunk.

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *Army's fleet of Arjun tanks face technical issues; major proportion of 124 tanks in service not operational*
> 
> 
> *Even mk2 which is still under t sting or development is facing criticism lol;*
> 
> *https://www.google.com.pk/amp/m.ind...hief-says-they-missed-the-point/1/629489.html*
> 
> 
> Almost 4 decades and even 125 produced are grounded..LOL



The serviceability of the Mark 1s are back to 70% a year ago, probably higher now. This is stated by the MoD himself.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> The serviceability of the Mark 1s are back to 70% a year ago, probably higher now. This is stated by the MoD himself.


A face saving attempt from Jan 11 - 2017

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/pune...operationalised-soon/articleshow/56463651.cms


----------



## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A face saving attempt from Jan 11 - 2017
> 
> http://m.timesofindia.com/city/pune...operationalised-soon/articleshow/56463651.cms



That article seems to have several different time periods at ones. The special committee they're talking about was set up a year+ ago. The MoD himself mentioned it to be 70% operational in the beginning of last year after he set that committee up. So no, it's not face saving nothing.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> That article seems to have several different time periods at ones. The special committee they're talking about was set up a year+ ago. The MoD himself mentioned it to be 70% operational in the beginning of last year after he set that committee up. So no, it's not face saving nothing.


The article is from 11 Jan 2017... Quoting Indian army generals.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Really? Kraus Maffei who designed the tank isn't Indian its German...
> http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/india-took-35-years-make-its-first-tank-it-was-total-18499
> 
> 
> Leopard
> View attachment 373560
> 
> 
> Arjun
> 
> View attachment 373562




And what? You're talking you, or the Chinese got no help? Give me a break. You would say the same stupid shit about Dhruv, where are you in LCH, LUH threads? Those are based off of design, certification experiance from the Dhruv program.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> And what? You're talking you, or the Chinese got no help? Give me a break.



Did you read my post ? The AK is based on Type-90II series... THE AK USES NO CHINESE SUBSYSTEMS.. You are free as a fly to prove me wrong.



> You would say the same stupid shit about Dhruv, where are you in LCH, LUH threads? Those are based off of design, certification experiance from the Dhruv program.


Good luck on those projects... But if my memory serves me right ... I did prove it was an Indian assembled Mb helicopter (yeah German again)... Just a worse crash record.



SDS1 said:


> havnt your called your those planes your PAK planes ??? prove me wrong? These are facts ....
> 
> 
> Well ... PAK name same plane JF-17 , and Chinese called these plane FC-1..... same planes but different name.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes , Design philosophy is based on the Germans tank design, and its designed by Indian. J-10 was based on F-16 Design , so J-10 mused designed by US also ?
> 
> Yes even your Tanks also have many Imported components? engine etc , you should name which component is your in your tank and not under Lic production ?
> 
> Indian can make Tanks engines but Due to less number of tanks required India is not interested in making engines. but now it started developing own engines for future tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 90 technical improvements and not issues , these are regular and weapons always have scope of improvements, all Major issues are closed in MK-II version , which is now under production
> 
> Tank Engine of 1500 HP Cummins QSK-38 turbocharged diesel unit, is also under testing / trial ....., most of tank MK-II now made in India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not grounded its serving with units....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you are producing since 2001 and only 350 units after 15 years and since your AK-II failed you are testing new tanks from UK , China etc. isnt true?
> 
> yes you need to replace lot of tanks and since after 15 yes only able to deploy 350 units.
> 
> India already now started producing MK-II (improved version) Plus further developing FMBT ...



7 years now
https://defence.pk/threads/generation-2-0-arjun-mk-2.58322/

And other seven maybe.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The article is from 11 Jan 2017... Quoting Indian army generals.




ToI is mixing up several things up at once. If the MoD said himself it's operational up to 70%, it's he himself the set that program in motion, no one would even know about this problem if it wasnt for him.




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Good luck on those projects... But if my memory serves me right ... I did prove it was an Indian assembled Mb helicopter (yeah German again)... Just a worse crash record.




What MB helicopter? Again, the design and certification process from the Dhruv program showing dividends with the LUH and LCH program. If it was a simple, assembly work why didnt India go back for design help for those program?


They consulted, no different from Koreans doing the same for the Turks, BAE doing the same for the new Turkish bird. Or the Russians helping China in the FC1 in your, "JV". Several nations had help.

With the Dhruv example, the experience from that program have proven worthwhile, point in case --

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> ToI is mixing up several things up at once. If the MoD said himself it's operational up to 70%, it's he himself the set that program in motion, no one would even know about this problem if it wasnt for him.





Than so is your army.



> What MB helicopter? Again, the design and certification process from the Dhruv program showing dividends with the LUH and LCH program. If it was a simple, assembly work why didnt India go back for design help for those program?
> 
> 
> They consulted, no different from Koreans doing the same for the Turks, BAE doing the same for the new Turkish bird. Or the Russians helping China in the JF17 in your, "JV". Several nations had help.



Do you really want to go back to that again? In a topic about tanks? I understand your frustration but another time maybe.


----------



## SDS1

Rashid Mahmood said:


> How many Armour regiments have Arjunk.


2


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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Than so is your army.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really want to go back to that again? In a topic about tanks? I understand your frustration but another time maybe.



Point has to be made. With your $6 billion dollar joke of a budget, with a industry that cant even produce a proper bike, forced to ride around in some 90s era Japanese bikes, you act like taking consultancy is such a bad thing. Guess what? Nations with bigger budgets, better industry than yours have done it.

You want an example?












Your own pimp has done it. They try to be non-transparent about it as possible, but things still get through. So save all that shit.

If India wasnt transparent, you would know Arjun imported it's engine, uses foreign OEM assembled sights, that's just like AK. You would know absolutely nothing regarding any percentage.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> Point has to be made. With your $6 billion dollar joke of a budget, with a industry that cant even produce a proper bike, forced to ride around in some 90s era Japanese bikes, you act like taking consultancy is such a bad thing. Guess what? Nations with bigger budgets, better industry than yours have done it.


It's actually around 9 billion.. Excluding FFG profits that range into billions...

And we do produce bikes,trucks etc..
But I can see why you are so butt hurt...

Now il be using your own logic ... You claim to produce stuff that hardly works.. You have an army thrice our size and so is your budget .. Yet you Fukin fail to even produce an APC or a tank ? 





> You want an example?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your own pimp has done it. They try to be non-transparent about it as possible, but things still get through. So save all that shit.
> 
> If India wasnt transparent, you would know Arjun imported it's engine, uses foreign OEM assembled sights, that's just like AK. You would know absolutely nothing regarding any percentage.



For fuk sakes stop jumping from one .... to anther like a prostitute and address the topic on hand.. Which we all know you are too bloody embarrassed off.


----------



## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Sure son.. Pak produced the safari and had rights over it... Years later we produced a new variant bigger in size,payload,endurance,avionics etc and exported hundreds ... Over 62 last years alone.



like you India also made new improved Hawk with weapons , should India called British hawk Indian bird like pak do with Mushshak?



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Really? Kraus Maffei who designed the tank isn't Indian its German...
> http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/india-took-35-years-make-its-first-tank-it-was-total-18499



tell us Article which said German designed Indian tank.????





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Even if somehow one even considers J-10 being based on F-16... It still Fukin works.



*My fault .. Should be more compared to levi..... So Isreali Design J10*
















DESERT FIGHTER said:


> and Arjun is 60% imported still....
> And so is its engine etc.




And I think your make your own tank engines .... lol , You cant even tell which components you made on your own tanks.... lol




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And that's why India bought 1000 t-90s from Russia instead..


India has to give something to Russia , these deals are done in order to save Russian industries sometimes.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Aww.. Poor chap doesn't know that technical flaws =/= upgrades... But flaws... Which can't be upgraded ..
> 
> Puttar see above even your previous mk-2 has been under testing since years:


http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/02/arjun-mk-ii-tank-clears-all-army-trials.html

Lol , still living in denial...




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Which tank did Pak test from uk?
> 
> And the tests were conducted last year.. I just posted a video link of HITs confirmation on AK-II.. Which will be a bigger,powerful tank than Oplot M etc who are at max in league with AK-I.



you are still deciding , India already started project of FMBT while MK-II already going under production and order placed.

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> It's actually around 9 billion.. Excluding FFG profits that range into billions...
> 
> And we do produce bikes,trucks etc..
> But I can see why you are so butt hurt...
> 
> Now il be using your own logic ... You claim to produce stuff that hardly works.. You have an army thrice our size and so is your budget .. Yet you Fukin fail to even produce an APC or a tank ?



The APC is trialing with the army as we speak. The Arjun tank is there, but it and the T-series will be replaced by the FRCV, which will be produced by the likes of the TATAs, L&Ts, Bharat Forge, Mahindras. The BMP replacement, FICV, will also be produced by those companies, which btw, you dont have any such companies even in the same league.




> And we do produce bikes,trucks etc..
> But I can see why you are so butt hurt...



You assemble pure garbage. Your industry is assembling this at high prices, because the Japanese know your industry is trash, and cant provide any better.






It's no different to you defence sector. You rely on the Chinese from the beginning. If the Chinese themselves called on help, god knows what the **** you guys even did.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SDS1 said:


> like you India also made new improved Hawk with weapons , should India called British hawk Indian bird like pak do with Mushshak?




Improved by ***.. It's assembled by India .. And hawk like most AJTs always had weapons... It's not a different variant ..

SM is like Galille based on the AK






Saab





SM




SM is a bigger aircraft,has more endurance,bigger payload,longer wings,avionics,more powerful engine,etc etc 

SM COCKPIT




Saab cockpit







> tell us Article which said German designed Indian tank.????




http://www.army-technology.com/projects/arjun-mbt/

Read it moron... If you are too blind to not even see the similarities ;











*My fault .. Should be more compared to levi..... So Isreali Design J10*

View attachment 373577



View attachment 373578








> And I think your make your own tank engines .... lol , You cant even tell which components you made on your own tanks.... lol



Wanna bet your behind on it ? As I said il own your behind.


> India has to give something to Russia , these deals are done in order to save Russian industries sometimes.



What a clown.. India saving Russian military complex ... Hahahahahahahahahahahahhaha by buying their most successful and exported tanks... Clown Russia is worlds third largest weapon exporter.



> http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/02/arjun-mk-ii-tank-clears-all-army-trials.html
> 
> Lol , still living in denial...



7 years in development and still not operation.. Another 7 maybe .. 14s the charm?



> you are still deciding , India already started project of FMBT while MK-II already going under production and order placed.



Sure sure..


----------



## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 373589
> 
> 
> Saab
> 
> View attachment 373582
> 
> SM




This guy somehow finds himself justifying this.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I
> 
> View attachment 373580
> 
> View attachment 373581



But not this.

 What type of weed is he on?













> SM is like Galille based on the AK



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OMG, just stop it,  It's the same shit with some imported avionics in it.

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## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Improved by ***.. It's assembled by India .. And hawk like most AJTs always had weapons... It's not a different variant ..
> 
> SM is like Galille based on the AK
> 
> View attachment 373589
> 
> 
> Saab
> 
> View attachment 373582
> 
> SM
> View attachment 373588
> 
> SM is a bigger aircraft,has more endurance,bigger payload,longer wings,avionics,more powerful engine,etc etc
> 
> SM COCKPIT
> View attachment 373587
> 
> Saab cockpit
> 
> View attachment 373584
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.army-technology.com/projects/arjun-mbt/
> 
> Read it moron... If you are too blind to not even see the similarities ;
> 
> 
> View attachment 373580
> 
> View attachment 373581
> 
> 
> *My fault .. Should be more compared to levi..... So Isreali Design J10*
> 
> View attachment 373577
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 373578
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wanna bet your behind on it ? As I said il own your behind.
> 
> 
> What a clown.. India saving Russian military complex ... Hahahahahahahahahahahahhaha by buying their most successful and exported tanks... Clown Russia is worlds third largest weapon exporter.
> 
> 
> 
> 7 years in development and still not operation.. Another 7 maybe .. 14s the charm?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure sure..



So either PAK Sold Tank Bangladesh and OR Bangladesh Design PAK Tank........ if Not China....lol

*Now spot the differnce ,* rather then similarities between Two tanks...
*PAK Al Khalid *






*
BanglaDesh AL -Khalid tank*


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> The APC is trialing with the army as we speak. The Arjun tank is there, but it and the T-series will be replaced by the FRCV, which will be produced by the likes of the TATAs, L&Ts, Bharat Forge, Mahindras. The BMP replacement, FICV, will also be produced by those companies, which btw, you dont have any such companies even in the same league.




Which one ?  We produce and export a lot of em.. Sure we don't have a private defence industry neither are those guys supported by GOP... But here is one recent entry;












> You assemble pure garbage. Your industry is assembling this at high prices, because the Japanese know your industry is trash, and cant provide any better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's no different to you defence sector. You rely on the Chinese from the beginning. If the Chinese themselves called on help, god knows what the **** you guys even did.



Oh stfu and build a tank that actually works before moanin n bitxh about bikes and whatnot.

Brands take years to build .. It's not Pak companies fault people prefer Honda for resale value.. 




















SDS1 said:


> So either PAK Sold Tank Bangladesh and OR Bangladesh Design PAK Tank........ if Not China....lol
> 
> *Now spot the differnce ,* rather then similarities between Two tanks...
> *PAK Al Khalid *
> 
> View attachment 373594
> 
> 
> *
> BanglaDesh AL -Khalid tank*
> View attachment 373595



If you weren't such a fukwit you'd know that MBT-2000 is a mid tech export variant which uses mostly Chinese parts... But profit is split between Norinco and HIT...


http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...l-khalid-tank&catid=112:ideas-2012&Itemid=249


----------



## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Which one ?  We produce and export a lot of em.. Sure we don't have a private defence industry neither are those guys supported by GOP... But here is one recent entry;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 373593



Which engine your this Combat Vehicle use HAMZA??? tell this and win a prize....


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> This guy somehow finds himself justifying this.
> 
> 
> 
> But not this.
> 
> What type of weed is he on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OMG, just stop it,  It's the same shit with some imported avionics in it.



Stfu asshole.. I've been ownin you since years now.. Just coz ur anus is on fire don't mean shyt..


Here wank yourself to sleep over last years sales;




*PAKISTAN, WORLD*
*Turkey opts to buy 52 Super Mushshak aircraft from Pakistan*





*PAKISTAN, WORLD*
*Turkey opts to buy 52 Super Mushshak aircraft from Pakistan*
*









*


----------



## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Which one ?  We produce and export a lot of em.. Sure we don't have a private defence industry neither are those guys supported by GOP... But here is one recent entry;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 373593
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh stfu and build a tank that actually works before moanin n bitxh about bikes and whatnot.
> 
> Brands take years to build .. It's not Pak companies fault people prefer Honda for resale value..
> 
> View attachment 373596
> View attachment 373597
> View attachment 373598
> View attachment 373600
> View attachment 373601
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you weren't such a fukwit you'd know that MBT-2000 is a mid tech export variant which uses mostly Chinese parts... But profit is split between Norinco and HIT...
> 
> 
> http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...l-khalid-tank&catid=112:ideas-2012&Itemid=249


*lol... can you prove that profit part ??
*
Which tank parts you made in your AL-Khlid? list the parts name?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

SDS1 said:


> Which engine your this Combat Vehicle use HAMZA??? tell this and win a prize....



Which engine does India produce ? Chutiye even your tatas are using exported engines and now I'm he so called indigenous engine itself uses Japanese parts.. Let alone tanks or engines.



SDS1 said:


> lol... can you prove that profit part ??
> Which tank parts you made in your AL-Khlid? list the parts name?



Why don't you stop being a moron and read the link? Or do I have to highlight everything and shove it up ur behind ?


----------



## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Which one ?  We produce and export a lot of em.. Sure we don't have a private defence industry neither are those guys supported by GOP... But here is one recent entry;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 373593






















Next is the BMP2 replacement --






Then the T-series replacement, matter a fact, TATA Motors already placed a design for the FRCV design.

The private sector is in the defence sector now my friend, going to be tough for your guys egos in the coming years. 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Which one ?  We produce and export a lot of em.. Sure we don't have a private defence industry neither are those guys supported by GOP... But here is one recent entry;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 373593
> 
> View attachment 373596
> View attachment 373597
> View attachment 373598
> View attachment 373600
> View attachment 373601




Look at all that shit.


----------



## HRK

IS this STILL Arjun tank thread .... ???


----------



## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Stfu asshole.. I've been ownin you since years now.. Just coz ur anus is on fire don't mean shyt..
> 
> 
> Here wank yourself to sleep over last years sales;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PAKISTAN, WORLD*
> *Turkey opts to buy 52 Super Mushshak aircraft from Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PAKISTAN, WORLD*
> *Turkey opts to buy 52 Super Mushshak aircraft from Pakistan*
> *
> View attachment 373603
> View attachment 373604
> View attachment 373605
> *



That what you wanna prove? 

Pakistan has taken delivery of 18 Supporters, while 92 have been assembled locally by PAC from knocked down kits and a further 149 were built locally by PAC. It is named Mushshak (Proficient) in Pakistani service. In 1981, Pakistan acquired sole manufacturing rights of the Supporter.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> Next is the BMP2 replacement --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the T-series replacement, matter a fact, TATA Motors already placed a design for the FRCV design.
> 
> The private sector is in the defence sector now my friend, going to be tough for your guys egos in the coming years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at all that shit.




Lol .. First actually produce the stuff before bragging.. Shyt look at Arjun,LCA and other white elephants.. Every other day a new variant pops up on the drawing board whole you have nothing to show in service.

Moaning won't change Arjuns failure.



SDS1 said:


> That what you wanna prove?
> 
> Pakistan has taken delivery of 18 Supporters, while 92 have been assembled locally by PAC from knocked down kits and a further 149 were built locally by PAC. It is named Mushshak (Proficient) in Pakistani service. In 1981, Pakistan acquired sole manufacturing rights of the Supporter.



As I said bharti . It's produce by PAC and Saab doesn't even produce mfi variant let alone SM.. U spit fuk.


----------



## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Which engine does India produce ? Chutiye even your tatas are using exported engines and now I'm he so called indigenous engine itself uses Japanese parts.. Let alone tanks or engines.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you stop being a moron and read the link? Or do I have to highlight everything and shove it up ur behind ?



Fools dont have horns

http://www.tatamotors.com/investors/financials/71-ar-html/advances-engines.html

Read above , tata designed and developed engines........ Just tell which bike / mophed engines you developed till now.
I can post Bajaj developed Bike engines link if you like

*Revotron*
_The Revotron 1.2T, indigenously developed by Tata Motors, has been designed to deliver superior fuel economy and a peppy driving experience. Indias first 1.2L turbocharged multipoint fuel Injection petrol engine, the Revotron 1.2T has been globally benchmarked for advanced performance on the road. _



*A) you still didnt answer , Can you prove the Profit of tanks of Al Khlid and MBT 2000 by Sources? *

B) List of parts in tanks your made by yourself.

*Can you tell me which Engine is developed by PAK own its own?*

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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol .. First actually produce the stuff before bragging.. Shyt look at Arjun,LCA and other white elephants.. Every other day a new variant pops up on the drawing board whole you have nothing to show in service.
> 
> Moaning won't change Arjuns failure.




First of all, you're the one that showed some shitty looking APC that's not even remotely inducted. The one I showed has already gone through amphibious trials, etc. 


Anyways, I have to go.

I would like to leave this --










*SM is like Galille based on the AK - DESERT FIGHTER*

HAHAHAHAHAHA

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## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol .. First actually produce the stuff before bragging.. Shyt look at Arjun,LCA and other white elephants.. Every other day a new variant pops up on the drawing board whole you have nothing to show in service.
> 
> Moaning won't change Arjuns failure.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said bharti . It's produce by PAC and Saab doesn't even produce mfi variant let alone SM.. U spit fuk.


Yes, I know , but that make PAK designed plane? Its outdated now , so company stop production. you only do lic production nothing else .....

Oh Wait , What about Indian Bahrmos missile ,* no other country produces Bahrmos just like your Mushshak plane case . And India so all the development just like do with Mushshak. So technically its a Indian Missile then?*

Oh do you make Mushshak Plane engines also?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> First of all, you're the one that showed some shitty looking APC that's not even remotely inducted. The one I showed has already gone through amphibious trials, etc.



So ours are shitty but cunts who have failed at building a tank for 4 decades aren't?

PS:Clown we even export APCs.. So as I said build one before bragging.


> Anyways, I have to go.
> 
> I would like to leave this --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *SM is like Galille based on the AK - DESERT FIGHTER*
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHA



Hahahah .. Asshole we made hundreds of millions last year by exporting it... Hahaha



SDS1 said:


> Fools dont have horns
> 
> http://www.tatamotors.com/investors/financials/71-ar-html/advances-engines.html
> 
> Read above , tata designed and developed engines........ Just tell which bike / mophed engines you developed till now.
> I can post Bajaj developed Bike engines link if you like
> 
> *Revotron*
> _The Revotron 1.2T, indigenously developed by Tata Motors, has been designed to deliver superior fuel economy and a peppy driving experience. Indias first 1.2L turbocharged multipoint fuel Injection petrol engine, the Revotron 1.2T has been globally benchmarked for advanced performance on the road. _


Time to stfu

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...oduces-1-2l-turbo-petrol-revotron-engine.html



*



A) you still didnt answer , Can you prove the Profit of tanks of Al Khlid and MBT 2000 by Sources?

Click to expand...

 *


> Do you understand what joint marketing means ? Moron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B) List of parts in tanks your made by yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armour
> Era
> 125mm smoothbore
> Laser warning and jamming system
> EMP system
> RCWS
> Laser detection system
> Solid state auto loader
> Laser Anti jamming system
> Fire suppression system
> Imagery systems (produced in a JV by Shibli Pvt ltd) and Sagem
> Anti mine system
> 
> The whole Fukin tank minus engine,APS..
> 
> 
> 
> SDS1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know , but that make PAK designed plane? Its outdated now , so company stop production. you only do lic production nothing else .....
> 
> Oh Wait , What about Indian Bahrmos missile ,* no other country produces Bahrmos just like your Mushshak plane case . And India so all the development just like do with Mushshak. So technically its a Indian Missile then?*
> 
> Oh do you make Mushshak Plane engines also?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even 65% Brahmos even after decades is imported from Russia .. I gave you an Indian source on the previous page ..
> 
> In case of SM .. Only the Lycoming engine is outsourced by Pak..
Click to expand...


----------



## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So ours are shitty but cunts who have failed at building a tank for 4 decades aren't?
> 
> PS:Clown we even export APCs.. So as I said build one before bragging.
> 
> 
> Hahahah .. Asshole we made hundreds of millions last year by exporting it... Hahaha
> 
> 
> Time to stfu
> 
> http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...oduces-1-2l-turbo-petrol-revotron-engine.html


A) lol you cant understand ....its way above your IQ level You talk about Tank AL-Khalid your own tank , which uses Ukraine engines as own lol height of stupidity.

B) Buddy, design means... All basic design / including dimension, design parameters . , laws etc is design by Tata.

Turbo charger is came from Bosh only. ...., parts came from other knows sourced....... You call AL-Khlid your own designed tank but parts of it came from country, like engines...... lol

Like see like this Al khlid Tank = tata engine
Al -Khlid Engine , Ukraine = Tata engine Turbo is Bosch

Now if your Tank is PAK design , so how-come tata engine is not Indian designed?

C) if Air Bus Fly Software made in India , dose it make Airbus , Boeing less US / French? this is globalization, dear

D) the things you mentioned in your tank is also , is also made in India by its tanks. now tell me your product catalog of Laser warning system ???

*F) JV , give us the documentary evidence you share profit from BD tank deal?? 

Or tell which Made in PAK parts installed in BD Tanks ???? 

With evidence . OR else Fking live in imaginary world.


*
*Let me tell your more about your SO called Indigenous tank Al Khlid tank aka failed tank.*

1) Al-Khalid is designed with a 125 mm bore, 48 calibre long smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which is manufactured from highly stiff electroslag remelting steel. *The gun is then put under stringent quality control process to ensure standard barrel life of 1,100 rounds EFC; barrels that cannot pass this test are rejected.  failed tank inducted by PA????

2) In April 2011, it was reported that the first Pakistani-produced tank gun barrel was ready to be delivered to HIT for installation on the Al-Khalid 

Previously, HIT imported 125 mm gun barrel blanks from France for the two tanks which would then be machined in Pakistan by HIT.*


3) The production model Al-Khalid is powered by a 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine, designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB) of Ukraine.

The 6TD-2 engine drives a French-designed hydro-mechanical automatic transmission, the SESM ESM500, which is also fitted to the Leclerc MBT


4) The production Al-Khalid tank has a fire-control system of western origin

*Thats goes for your So called indigenous tank ,, from 2001 to 2011 you are using French made Barrels ....in so called indigenous tank*

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## Hassan Guy

Some more burning Indian bonds have come back SQUEALING CHINA!


What else is new.


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## Dazzler

Arjun is a sad story being dragged over the IA. they don't want it and would go for Armata instead but the babu DRDO gang is ensuring they'll end up with these pieces of junk.

The tank is so dreadful a performer that it's not fair to call it a battle tank, rather a pile of metal would suffice.

I've busted it over and over because as a part of arms industry, I know things that few could see. The mere size of it, despite being big and bulky, makes you think who would dare to drive this miserable piece of trash.

If that's not enough, the fragile suspension is so fragile that it cannot handle the 62 ton behemoth over rough terrain . if it fell over a slope, or had to jump, the suspension will rip apart.

The same goes for horrendous RWS over that turret, as if someone just pasted it there without considering that it'll lock commander and Gunners vision.

The mighty ammo is a dead issue so leave it that. And the so called indigenous FCS was so bad, they had to buy and integrate a french Savan 15 in a hurry instead. 

It's a sad story no matter how you look at it. No wonder IA never lets past any opportunity to buy more t-90s

Reactions: Like Like:
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## DESERT FIGHTER

SDS1 said:


> A) lol you cant understand ....its way above your IQ level You talk about Tank AL-Khalid your own tank , which uses Ukraine engines as own lol height of stupidity.


And did I question that? Shyt for brains.




> B) Buddy, design means... All basic design / including dimension, design parameters . , laws etc is design by Tata.
> 
> Turbo charger is came from Bosh only. ...., parts came from other knows sourced....... You call AL-Khlid your own designed tank but parts of it came from country, like engines...... lol



From tanks to Tara engines using foreign sources parts lol.




> Like see like this Al khlid Tank = tata engine
> Al -Khlid Engine , Ukraine = Tata engine Turbo is Bosch
> 
> Now if your Tank is PAK design , so how-come tata engine is not Indian designed?


What the fuk are you going in about ?

There is a difference between a finished product and a Fukin part .... U moron.


> C) if Air Bus Fly Software made in India , dose it make Airbus , Boeing less US / French? this is globalization, dear



Are you retarded ? 


> D) the things you mentioned in your tank is also , is also made in India by its tanks. now tell me your product catalog of Laser warning system ???



Sure .. Will you shut up after that ? You shameless creature.


P.S failed Arjun doesn't even have most of those featur let alone India producing em.. and is a failed tank with flawed design and non available parts.

ATCOP LTS 1

http://pakdef.org/atcop-lts-1-laser-threat-warner/



> *F) JV , give us the documentary evidence you share profit from BD tank deal??
> 
> Or tell which Made in PAK parts installed in BD Tanks ????
> 
> With evidence . OR else Fking live in imaginary world.
> 
> *


*

Fukwit I already gave you a source.
*

*

*


> *Let me tell your more about your SO called Indigenous tank Al Khlid tank aka failed tank.*
> 
> 1) Al-Khalid is designed with a 125 mm bore, 48 calibre long smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which is manufactured from highly stiff electroslag remelting steel. *The gun is then put under stringent quality control process to ensure standard barrel life of 1,100 rounds EFC; barrels that cannot pass this test are rejected.  failed tank inducted by PA????*



*
2) In April 2011, it was reported that the first Pakistani-produced tank gun barrel was ready to be delivered to HIT for installation on the Al-Khalid 

Previously, HIT imported 125 mm gun barrel blanks from France for the two tanks which would then be machined in Pakistan by HIT.*[/QUOTE]





http://www.hit.gov.pk/gun barrel 125mm.html

Die of butthurt now.




> 3) The production model Al-Khalid is powered by a 6TD-2 liquid-cooled diesel engine, designed by the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB) of Ukraine.
> 
> The 6TD-2 engine drives a French-designed hydro-mechanical automatic transmission, the SESM ESM500, which is also fitted to the Leclerc MBT





> 4) The production Al-Khalid tank has a fire-control system of western origin
> 
> *Thats goes for your So called indigenous tank ,, from 2001 to 2011 you are using French made Barrels ....in so called indigenous tank*


Stupidity at its highest.



Dazzler said:


> Arjun is a sad story being dragged over the IA. they don't want it and would go for Armata instead but the babu DRDO gang is ensuring they'll end up with these pieces of junk.
> 
> The tank is so dreadful a performer that it's not fair to call it a battle tank, rather a pile of metal would suffice.
> 
> I've busted it over and over because as a part of arms industry, I know things that few could see. The mere size of it, despite being big and bulky, makes you think who would dare to drive this miserable piece of trash.
> 
> If that's not enough, the fragile suspension is so fragile that it cannot handle the 62 ton behemoth over rough terrain . if it fell over a slope, or had to jump, the suspension will rip apart.
> 
> The same goes for horrendous RWS over that turret, as if someone just pasted it there without considering that it'll lock commander and Gunners vision.
> 
> The mighty ammo is a dead issue so leave it that. And the so called indigenous FCS was so bad, they had to buy and integrate a french Savan 15 in a hurry instead.
> 
> It's a sad story no matter how you look at it. No wonder IA never lets past any opportunity to buy more t-90s


Shh man... U hurting their feelings.


----------



## SDS1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And did I question that? Shyt for brains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From tanks to Tara engines using foreign sources parts lol.



lol either your failed in class 5th , you dont have any knowledge at all.. The engine used in PAK very stone age Euro I/II , and already rejected by many countries ( Euro V), so your knowledge is limited by stone age engines only.

You understand manufacturing at all ? Nope you are not educated?
*A) World wide car use Japaneses air bag? As per your High IQ car will be not German / US designed then
B) Wire harness more then 50% of the world cars is done by Japaneses company and almost more then 70% of wire harness is made in India out of that, So car must be Indian made car ? as per your High IQ*

lol Engines uses spark plugs which is made by Micro ,NKG etc , so if engines uses park plugs of other country.

*C) Tell which components of the engine Tata uses from outside India?
D) India is top 5 Auto Parts Suppliers to world Cars. Including piston heads... so engine using Indian piston head is not made / Design by US / German etc?*

*Your High IQ level says if We use foreign country engine in Tank then tank is PAK made but If Indian made engine use few Foreign components then its not Indian. 

Likewise , Mushshq plane is PAK made , as no other country is making it. PAK importing Plane engine also , only make airframe still its PAK plane, But Bahrmos is Russian as India only using Russian engine.


Let me give another Example your low level IQ

Apple Phone :- Designed & developed by APPLE , USA
1) Uses Samsung storage chips ( Made in Kora)
2) Samsung / Sharp Displays ( korea/ Japan)
3) Battery from LG ( Korea)
4) Modem chips from Intel / Qualicomm (US, Isreal etc)
5) Assemble in China 
*



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> P.S failed Arjun doesn't even have most of those featur let alone India producing em.. and is a failed tank with flawed design and non available parts.
> 
> ATCOP LTS 1
> 
> http://pakdef.org/atcop-lts-1-laser-threat-warner/
> *Fukwit I already gave you a source. *


*
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3778.html Italian made system, produced under Lic , read the fine line . like your Mushshaq and Al -Khalid tank.

A) you havent given me source which stated that "Made in PAK " component list in in BD tank.
B) the money you got from BD Tank deal .


*


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 373708
> 
> 
> http://www.hit.gov.pk/gun barrel 125mm.html


lol you have problem in reading , I* Said before 2011 all your tanks have French imported Barrel........ lol your so called PAK tanks before 2011 , cant even have PAK manufacture barrels and you calling those tanks a PAK made tanks before 2011, lol

India made barrels since very long....*


----------



## Dazzler

SDS1 said:


> lol either your failed in class 5th , you dont have any knowledge at all.. The engine used in PAK very stone age Euro I/II , and already rejected by many countries ( Euro V), so your knowledge is limited by stone age engines only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3778.html Italian made system, produced under Lic , read the fine line . like your Mushshaq and Al -Khalid tank.
> 
> A) you havent given me source which stated that "Made in PAK " component list in in BD tank.
> B) the money you got from BD Tank deal .
> 
> 
> *
> lol you have problem in reading , I* Said before 2011 all your tanks have French imported Barrel........ lol your so called PAK tanks before 2011 , cant even have PAK manufacture barrels and you calling those tanks a PAK made tanks before 2011, lol
> 
> India made barrels since very long....*





An absurd and way off topic post to say the least. 

It looks like you cannot survive an argument without dragging Al khalid and other pakistani armor into the discussion. What a pity! 

Your knowledge on the subject, yes, the off topic one, is way off the mark. In fact, you make false and absurd claims that are virtually non existent in the real world. You are so wrong on several accounts that its not even funny.

Try to get back to the topic for once and prove the merits of Arjun mbt in Indian Army. Also, give reasons as to why IA should induct it in numbers (at least 500 for breakeven) instead of a,b,c,d,m, ms versions of T-90 from Russia. 

Thats it.

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## SDS1

Dazzler said:


> An absurd and way off topic post to say the least.
> 
> It looks like you cannot survive an argument without dragging Al khalid and other pakistani armor into the discussion. What a pity!
> 
> Your knowledge on the subject, yes, the off topic one, is way off the mark. In fact, you make false and absurd claims that are virtually non existent in the real world. You are so wrong on several accounts that its not even funny.
> 
> Try to get back to the topic for once and prove the merits of Arjun mbt in Indian Army. Also, give reasons as to why IA should induct it in numbers (at least 500 for breakeven) instead of a,b,c,d,m, ms versions of T-90 from Russia.
> 
> Thats it.


Well , Indian requirement changed over the period of time, Arjun is used to be for defensive purpose rather then offensive purpose. 

Arjun-II is already in production , FMBT project is kicked in which meant to develop tank for 2020 -22 onward . even present order of Arjun given , their no way they can be fulfilled before 2020 , therefore , less number of thank ordered and after 2020 , new tank will be in production. We are doing optimizing resources. 

Like wise , your Tank , from 2001 to 2017 only 350 or let make 400 units made in 17 yrs , and you expecting more then 500 Arjun in less then 10 yrs?


----------



## Dazzler

SDS1 said:


> Well , Indian requirement changed over the period of time, Arjun is used to be for defensive purpose rather then offensive purpose.
> 
> Arjun-II is already in production , FMBT project is kicked in which meant to develop tank for 2020 -22 onward . even present order of Arjun given , their no way they can be fulfilled before 2020 , therefore , less number of thank ordered and after 2020 , new tank will be in production. We are doing optimizing resources.
> 
> Like wise , your Tank , from 2001 to 2017 only 350 or let make 400 units made in 17 yrs , and you expecting more then 500 Arjun in less then 10 yrs?



close to 450 are in service while the next batch of Alkhalid is being prepared. 

Now keep it on Arjun related discussions or get reported.


----------



## Hindustani78




----------



## Storm Force

Arjun is a heavy main battle tank it is not needed in massive numbers but small numbers to spearhead massive numbers of medium weight tanks. 

India has two regiment today and two more will join by 2020. 

Beyond this four more mark three will join in 2020 to 2024,around 450 tanks in total 

They will support 2200 t90 medium tanks 

I taxa good mix


----------



## Kailash Rava

have to disagree with many of the answers above. The Arjun MKI & II are both very disappointing vehicles, with significantly reduced capabilities compared to other modern third and fourth generation MBTs.

Let´s start with* mobility*:

The Arjun MkI is powered by a German*MTU MB 838 Ka-501 diesel* engine. This engine is a modernized version of the *MTU MB 838 CaM 500* multi-fuel engine that was first fitted to the Leopard 1 MBT in 1965. Thanks to various upgrades, and the addition of a supercharger, the Ka-501 can reach 1400 hp while the CaM 500 can only reach 800 hp.

So fans of the Arjun MBT (and its manufacturer) would have you believe that this tank has excellent mobility thanks to a hp/weight ratio of 23,5 (slightly below average for a modern MBT but still within acceptable norms).

However, raw engine power is only one of the factors that determines a tank´s mobility. The problem is that because of its outdated design, the Ka-501 engine is *big*, *heavy*, *extremely fuel inefficient* (a pitiful 200km range on good terrain while other MBTs can easily reach 500 km) and has *very poor performance in terms of rpm and torque*. These problems are worsened by the vehicles heavy weight (58 tons for the MkI and 68 for the MkII, the heaviest MBT in the world), meaning that the Arjun struggles to crest even a slight hill.




_Big, heavy, and terrible fuel efficiency..._

The current version of the MkII still uses the same outdated, crappy engine, although there are plans to upgrade to a modern American Cummins engine coupled with a French suspension. So far, these plans have yet to materialize.

*Protection:*

On paper, the Arjun´s armor is supposedly quite good. *On paper*.

The manufacturer of the Arjun MBT claims that its "Kanchan heavy composite armor" is on par to the British Chobham armor from which it was developed. The Arjun MkI&II can also use locally manufactured ERA blocks, said to equal the performance of Russian Kontact-5 ERA from which they were developed as well.

So theoretically, the Arjun´s armor uses excellent materials. The problem here is the design of the armor itself.

The arjun´s gun shield is significantly thinner than other modern MBTs. In addition, the primary gunner sight does not have a extra armor module.




Notice how the left side of the turret is completely bereft of any composite armor (those white layers on the other side of the turret front). The gunner sits behind 250mm of spaced steel armor, and that´s it. Any modern APFSDS round will cut through that like it´s butter and vaporize the gunner.




_Notice the huge weak spot created by the primary gunner sight_.

So the turret front is terrible. But the turret sides are even worse.




Notice how the vaunted "Kanchan heavy composite armor" (the white layers of armor) leave 2/3rds of the turret sides exposed. The turret sides of the Arjun I&II are literally paper thin. Worse, *contrary to what the manufacturer claims there are no blowout panels on the Arjun MBT, nor is it equipped with a separate ammunition compartment*.




_Where is that separate ammo compartment you´ve been talking about?_

This means that virtually round penetrating the turret will ignite the tank´s ammunition and vaporize it in a big fireball.

Moving on...

*Firepower:*

If you thought the Arjun was a bad tank before, you haven´seen anything yet.

The Arjun MKI&II both use the same gun: a 120/55 mm rifled gun inspired by the British L30 rifled tank gun used by the British Challenger 2. Proponents of the tanks will tell you that because the gun is rifled, it is more accurate than the smoothbore guns used on the Abrams or the T-90.

That´s bullshit, to put it simple.

A rifled gun applies a spinning motion to the round it fires, meaning those rounds will be more stable when travelling through the air and more accurate over range. However, modern ammunition doesn´t need a rifled barrel to be accurate and stable, since they are equipped with little fins at the end of their penetrator, that apply a spinning motion to the round as it travels through the air. Put simply, modern ammunition spins itself, and doesn´t need a rifled gun to be accurate.




_Notice the little fins at the end of the round_.

Therefore, the claims that the manufacturer makes about the gun´s accuracy are very doubtful at best. It is claimed that the Arjun has a First Hit Probability (FHP) of 90%, even on the move, thanks to an excellent stabilizing system and Fire Control System (FCS). Comparative trials were conducted between the Arjun MkII and the T-90, where it was claimed that the Arjun MkII outperformed the T-90.

However, Indian Army Generals have since come out to say that those trials were rigged by corrupt defense officials, and that the accuracy of the Arjun MBT is vastly overestimated.

But the worst of all is the penetrating power of the Arjun´s main gun. At 2km, a round fired by the Arjun can only penetrate 300mm of Rolled Homogenous Armour (RHA).




This is pitifully bad. *At 2km, this tank won´t even be able to penetrate the side armor of most modern MBTs*.

As a comparison, most modern APFSDS rounds can penetrate between 700 and 900 mm of armor at 2 km. *That´s 3x the penetration of the Arjun*.

The poor penetrating power of the Arjun is attributed to poor materials used for the penetrators, a low-pressure firing chamber and a short penetrator length.

*Soooo, if we recap:*

The mobility of the Arjun is terrible. Its armor is virtually non-existent with huge weak spots all around the turret, and its gun is horrendously inadequate by modern standards.

*There is a reason why even the Indian Army refuses to use the bloody thing. Only 100-200 Arjuns have been ordered to placate the government and DRDO (the Arjun manufacturer), while the Army relies on 1250 T-90 and 2500 T-72 MBTs.

Linkhttps://www.quora.com/How-does-the-Arjun-MBT-compare-with-other-battle-tanks-in-the-world*
This is a answer by a quora guy

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kailash Rava said:


> have to disagree with many of the answers above. The Arjun MKI & II are both very disappointing vehicles, with significantly reduced capabilities compared to other modern third and fourth generation MBTs.
> 
> Let´s start with* mobility*:
> 
> The Arjun MkI is powered by a German*MTU MB 838 Ka-501 diesel* engine. This engine is a modernized version of the *MTU MB 838 CaM 500* multi-fuel engine that was first fitted to the Leopard 1 MBT in 1965. Thanks to various upgrades, and the addition of a supercharger, the Ka-501 can reach 1400 hp while the CaM 500 can only reach 800 hp.
> 
> So fans of the Arjun MBT (and its manufacturer) would have you believe that this tank has excellent mobility thanks to a hp/weight ratio of 23,5 (slightly below average for a modern MBT but still within acceptable norms).
> 
> However, raw engine power is only one of the factors that determines a tank´s mobility. The problem is that because of its outdated design, the Ka-501 engine is *big*, *heavy*, *extremely fuel inefficient* (a pitiful 200km range on good terrain while other MBTs can easily reach 500 km) and has *very poor performance in terms of rpm and torque*. These problems are worsened by the vehicles heavy weight (58 tons for the MkI and 68 for the MkII, the heaviest MBT in the world), meaning that the Arjun struggles to crest even a slight hill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Big, heavy, and terrible fuel efficiency..._
> 
> The current version of the MkII still uses the same outdated, crappy engine, although there are plans to upgrade to a modern American Cummins engine coupled with a French suspension. So far, these plans have yet to materialize.
> 
> *Protection:*
> 
> On paper, the Arjun´s armor is supposedly quite good. *On paper*.
> 
> The manufacturer of the Arjun MBT claims that its "Kanchan heavy composite armor" is on par to the British Chobham armor from which it was developed. The Arjun MkI&II can also use locally manufactured ERA blocks, said to equal the performance of Russian Kontact-5 ERA from which they were developed as well.
> 
> So theoretically, the Arjun´s armor uses excellent materials. The problem here is the design of the armor itself.
> 
> The arjun´s gun shield is significantly thinner than other modern MBTs. In addition, the primary gunner sight does not have a extra armor module.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the left side of the turret is completely bereft of any composite armor (those white layers on the other side of the turret front). The gunner sits behind 250mm of spaced steel armor, and that´s it. Any modern APFSDS round will cut through that like it´s butter and vaporize the gunner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Notice the huge weak spot created by the primary gunner sight_.
> 
> So the turret front is terrible. But the turret sides are even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the vaunted "Kanchan heavy composite armor" (the white layers of armor) leave 2/3rds of the turret sides exposed. The turret sides of the Arjun I&II are literally paper thin. Worse, *contrary to what the manufacturer claims there are no blowout panels on the Arjun MBT, nor is it equipped with a separate ammunition compartment*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Where is that separate ammo compartment you´ve been talking about?_
> 
> This means that virtually round penetrating the turret will ignite the tank´s ammunition and vaporize it in a big fireball.
> 
> Moving on...
> 
> *Firepower:*
> 
> If you thought the Arjun was a bad tank before, you haven´seen anything yet.
> 
> The Arjun MKI&II both use the same gun: a 120/55 mm rifled gun inspired by the British L30 rifled tank gun used by the British Challenger 2. Proponents of the tanks will tell you that because the gun is rifled, it is more accurate than the smoothbore guns used on the Abrams or the T-90.
> 
> That´s bullshit, to put it simple.
> 
> A rifled gun applies a spinning motion to the round it fires, meaning those rounds will be more stable when travelling through the air and more accurate over range. However, modern ammunition doesn´t need a rifled barrel to be accurate and stable, since they are equipped with little fins at the end of their penetrator, that apply a spinning motion to the round as it travels through the air. Put simply, modern ammunition spins itself, and doesn´t need a rifled gun to be accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Notice the little fins at the end of the round_.
> 
> Therefore, the claims that the manufacturer makes about the gun´s accuracy are very doubtful at best. It is claimed that the Arjun has a First Hit Probability (FHP) of 90%, even on the move, thanks to an excellent stabilizing system and Fire Control System (FCS). Comparative trials were conducted between the Arjun MkII and the T-90, where it was claimed that the Arjun MkII outperformed the T-90.
> 
> However, Indian Army Generals have since come out to say that those trials were rigged by corrupt defense officials, and that the accuracy of the Arjun MBT is vastly overestimated.
> 
> But the worst of all is the penetrating power of the Arjun´s main gun. At 2km, a round fired by the Arjun can only penetrate 300mm of Rolled Homogenous Armour (RHA).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is pitifully bad. *At 2km, this tank won´t even be able to penetrate the side armor of most modern MBTs*.
> 
> As a comparison, most modern APFSDS rounds can penetrate between 700 and 900 mm of armor at 2 km. *That´s 3x the penetration of the Arjun*.
> 
> The poor penetrating power of the Arjun is attributed to poor materials used for the penetrators, a low-pressure firing chamber and a short penetrator length.
> 
> *Soooo, if we recap:*
> 
> The mobility of the Arjun is terrible. Its armor is virtually non-existent with huge weak spots all around the turret, and its gun is horrendously inadequate by modern standards.
> 
> *There is a reason why even the Indian Army refuses to use the bloody thing. Only 100-200 Arjuns have been ordered to placate the government and DRDO (the Arjun manufacturer), while the Army relies on 1250 T-90 and 2500 T-72 MBTs.
> 
> Linkhttps://www.quora.com/How-does-the-Arjun-MBT-compare-with-other-battle-tanks-in-the-world*
> This is a answer by a quora guy





That's what we've been sayin .. But hey your people high on jingoistic .... won't accept the reality.

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## Dazzler

Kailash Rava said:


> have to disagree with many of the answers above. The Arjun MKI & II are both very disappointing vehicles, with significantly reduced capabilities compared to other modern third and fourth generation MBTs.
> 
> Let´s start with* mobility*:
> 
> The Arjun MkI is powered by a German*MTU MB 838 Ka-501 diesel* engine. This engine is a modernized version of the *MTU MB 838 CaM 500* multi-fuel engine that was first fitted to the Leopard 1 MBT in 1965. Thanks to various upgrades, and the addition of a supercharger, the Ka-501 can reach 1400 hp while the CaM 500 can only reach 800 hp.
> 
> So fans of the Arjun MBT (and its manufacturer) would have you believe that this tank has excellent mobility thanks to a hp/weight ratio of 23,5 (slightly below average for a modern MBT but still within acceptable norms).
> 
> However, raw engine power is only one of the factors that determines a tank´s mobility. The problem is that because of its outdated design, the Ka-501 engine is *big*, *heavy*, *extremely fuel inefficient* (a pitiful 200km range on good terrain while other MBTs can easily reach 500 km) and has *very poor performance in terms of rpm and torque*. These problems are worsened by the vehicles heavy weight (58 tons for the MkI and 68 for the MkII, the heaviest MBT in the world), meaning that the Arjun struggles to crest even a slight hill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Big, heavy, and terrible fuel efficiency..._
> 
> The current version of the MkII still uses the same outdated, crappy engine, although there are plans to upgrade to a modern American Cummins engine coupled with a French suspension. So far, these plans have yet to materialize.
> 
> *Protection:*
> 
> On paper, the Arjun´s armor is supposedly quite good. *On paper*.
> 
> The manufacturer of the Arjun MBT claims that its "Kanchan heavy composite armor" is on par to the British Chobham armor from which it was developed. The Arjun MkI&II can also use locally manufactured ERA blocks, said to equal the performance of Russian Kontact-5 ERA from which they were developed as well.
> 
> So theoretically, the Arjun´s armor uses excellent materials. The problem here is the design of the armor itself.
> 
> The arjun´s gun shield is significantly thinner than other modern MBTs. In addition, the primary gunner sight does not have a extra armor module.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the left side of the turret is completely bereft of any composite armor (those white layers on the other side of the turret front). The gunner sits behind 250mm of spaced steel armor, and that´s it. Any modern APFSDS round will cut through that like it´s butter and vaporize the gunner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Notice the huge weak spot created by the primary gunner sight_.
> 
> So the turret front is terrible. But the turret sides are even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the vaunted "Kanchan heavy composite armor" (the white layers of armor) leave 2/3rds of the turret sides exposed. The turret sides of the Arjun I&II are literally paper thin. Worse, *contrary to what the manufacturer claims there are no blowout panels on the Arjun MBT, nor is it equipped with a separate ammunition compartment*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Where is that separate ammo compartment you´ve been talking about?_
> 
> This means that virtually round penetrating the turret will ignite the tank´s ammunition and vaporize it in a big fireball.
> 
> Moving on...
> 
> *Firepower:*
> 
> If you thought the Arjun was a bad tank before, you haven´seen anything yet.
> 
> The Arjun MKI&II both use the same gun: a 120/55 mm rifled gun inspired by the British L30 rifled tank gun used by the British Challenger 2. Proponents of the tanks will tell you that because the gun is rifled, it is more accurate than the smoothbore guns used on the Abrams or the T-90.
> 
> That´s bullshit, to put it simple.
> 
> A rifled gun applies a spinning motion to the round it fires, meaning those rounds will be more stable when travelling through the air and more accurate over range. However, modern ammunition doesn´t need a rifled barrel to be accurate and stable, since they are equipped with little fins at the end of their penetrator, that apply a spinning motion to the round as it travels through the air. Put simply, modern ammunition spins itself, and doesn´t need a rifled gun to be accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Notice the little fins at the end of the round_.
> 
> Therefore, the claims that the manufacturer makes about the gun´s accuracy are very doubtful at best. It is claimed that the Arjun has a First Hit Probability (FHP) of 90%, even on the move, thanks to an excellent stabilizing system and Fire Control System (FCS). Comparative trials were conducted between the Arjun MkII and the T-90, where it was claimed that the Arjun MkII outperformed the T-90.
> 
> However, Indian Army Generals have since come out to say that those trials were rigged by corrupt defense officials, and that the accuracy of the Arjun MBT is vastly overestimated.
> 
> But the worst of all is the penetrating power of the Arjun´s main gun. At 2km, a round fired by the Arjun can only penetrate 300mm of Rolled Homogenous Armour (RHA).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is pitifully bad. *At 2km, this tank won´t even be able to penetrate the side armor of most modern MBTs*.
> 
> As a comparison, most modern APFSDS rounds can penetrate between 700 and 900 mm of armor at 2 km. *That´s 3x the penetration of the Arjun*.
> 
> The poor penetrating power of the Arjun is attributed to poor materials used for the penetrators, a low-pressure firing chamber and a short penetrator length.
> 
> *Soooo, if we recap:*
> 
> The mobility of the Arjun is terrible. Its armor is virtually non-existent with huge weak spots all around the turret, and its gun is horrendously inadequate by modern standards.
> 
> *There is a reason why even the Indian Army refuses to use the bloody thing. Only 100-200 Arjuns have been ordered to placate the government and DRDO (the Arjun manufacturer), while the Army relies on 1250 T-90 and 2500 T-72 MBTs.
> 
> Linkhttps://www.quora.com/How-does-the-Arjun-MBT-compare-with-other-battle-tanks-in-the-world*
> This is a answer by a quora guy



The answer sums up a lot about why Arjun is a flawed product. Fortunately, the IA understands the situation and is making contingency arrangements.

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## SDS1

Dazzler said:


> The answer sums up a lot about why Arjun is a flawed product. Fortunately, the IA understands the situation and is making contingency arrangements.


Well.. The author has giving short coming , but when you see the shortcoming of other tanks Especially, you will find IA buying worse tank.

Its all about Pro-Russian lobby working in IA


----------



## Dazzler

SDS1 said:


> Well.. The author has giving short coming , but when you see the shortcoming of other tanks Especially, you will find IA buying worse tank.
> 
> Its all about Pro-Russian lobby working in IA



No one in their right mind would deny that. But, singling out the IA would be unfair as such practices are a norm worldwide. However, if Arjun was a quality product with few shortcomings, refusing to induct it in numbers would have been be difficult for the IA. 

That is not the case.

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## SDS1

Kailash Rava said:


> have to disagree with many of the answers above. The Arjun MKI & II are both very disappointing vehicles, with significantly reduced capabilities compared to other modern third and fourth generation MBTs.
> 
> Let´s start with* mobility*:
> 
> The Arjun MkI is powered by a German*MTU MB 838 Ka-501 diesel* engine. This engine is a modernized version of the *MTU MB 838 CaM 500* multi-fuel engine that was first fitted to the Leopard 1 MBT in 1965. Thanks to various upgrades, and the addition of a supercharger, the Ka-501 can reach 1400 hp while the CaM 500 can only reach 800 hp.
> 
> So fans of the Arjun MBT (and its manufacturer) would have you believe that this tank has excellent mobility thanks to a hp/weight ratio of 23,5 (slightly below average for a modern MBT but still within acceptable norms).
> 
> However, raw engine power is only one of the factors that determines a tank´s mobility. The problem is that because of its outdated design, the Ka-501 engine is *big*, *heavy*, *extremely fuel inefficient* (a pitiful 200km range on good terrain while other MBTs can easily reach 500 km) and has *very poor performance in terms of rpm and torque*. These problems are worsened by the vehicles heavy weight (58 tons for the MkI and 68 for the MkII, the heaviest MBT in the world), meaning that the Arjun struggles to crest even a slight hill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Big, heavy, and terrible fuel efficiency..._
> 
> The current version of the MkII still uses the same outdated, crappy engine, although there are plans to upgrade to a modern American Cummins engine coupled with a French suspension. So far, these plans have yet to materialize.



Wrong.... Assumption ....

Author has no Technical knowledge at all,
A) Higher the Power / lower the fuel Efficiency. Arjun is powered by 1400 BHP while T-90 is powered by 840 BHP.

*1) If Arjun run @ 67 KM / hr , then the Arjun range is 483 KM. The offroading is around 200km*
2) While using Trubo , Arjun Can increase the speed to 72 KM .
*3) British Challenger has 550 KM ranger out of 1200 HP engine with speed @ 59KM/Hr , and 250km in off roading
4) Merveka :- Range 500 km @ 64 KM/Hr with 1400 HP engine *

If you compared with world tank , you will have quality of range and speed.




Kailash Rava said:


> *Protection:*
> 
> On paper, the Arjun´s armor is supposedly quite good. *On paper*.
> 
> The manufacturer of the Arjun MBT claims that its "Kanchan heavy composite armor" is on par to the British Chobham armor from which it was developed. The Arjun MkI&II can also use locally manufactured ERA blocks, said to equal the performance of Russian Kontact-5 ERA from which they were developed as well.
> 
> So theoretically, the Arjun´s armor uses excellent materials. The problem here is the design of the armor itself.
> 
> The arjun´s gun shield is significantly thinner than other modern MBTs. In addition, the primary gunner sight does not have a extra armor module.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the left side of the turret is completely bereft of any composite armor (those white layers on the other side of the turret front). The gunner sits behind 250mm of spaced steel armor, and that´s it. Any modern APFSDS round will cut through that like it´s butter and vaporize the gunner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Notice the huge weak spot created by the primary gunner sight_.



Every Tanks has its weak point , The area you mentioned is too small and not as deep as it is shown , moreover , In battle the arjun sight has more chances of survival then any bulge popping out which can be destroyed making gunner sight useless.

This is already taken care of using APS

So its a small trade off , After installing Plates , that risk is also taken care of . BTW block is very Think



















Kailash Rava said:


> So the turret front is terrible. But the turret sides are even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the vaunted "Kanchan heavy composite armor" (the white layers of armor) leave 2/3rds of the turret sides exposed. The turret sides of the Arjun I&II are literally paper thin. Worse, *contrary to what the manufacturer claims there are no blowout panels on the Arjun MBT, nor is it equipped with a separate ammunition compartment*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Where is that separate ammo compartment you´ve been talking about?_
> 
> This means that virtually round penetrating the turret will ignite the tank´s ammunition and vaporize it in a big fireball.
> 
> Moving on...



Ammo on T-90 is littered on the tank floor waiting to cook off even from any seep through fire resulting from simple anti tank mine explosion.

but in Arjun it is stored in separate canisters behind the loader, so there is no chance of it happening.
Direct hit on Amo chamber of Arjun mk1 is only possible from the top attack missile.
because no round is going to pierce itsfrontal and sideways composite cum ERA armor and hit it on ammo chamber

In mk2 even that possibility is taken care of by providing blow out panels that direct the explosive energy outside the crew compartment preventing ammo cook offinside the tank.



Kailash Rava said:


> *Firepower:*
> 
> If you thought the Arjun was a bad tank before, you haven´seen anything yet.
> 
> The Arjun MKI&II both use the same gun: a 120/55 mm rifled gun inspired by the British L30 rifled tank gun used by the British Challenger 2. Proponents of the tanks will tell you that because the gun is rifled, it is more accurate than the smoothbore guns used on the Abrams or the T-90.
> 
> That´s bullshit, to put it simple.
> 
> A rifled gun applies a spinning motion to the round it fires, meaning those rounds will be more stable when travelling through the air and more accurate over range. However, modern ammunition doesn´t need a rifled barrel to be accurate and stable, since they are equipped with little fins at the end of their penetrator, that apply a spinning motion to the round as it travels through the air. Put simply, modern ammunition spins itself, and doesn´t need a rifled gun to be accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Notice the little fins at the end of the round_.
> 
> Therefore, the claims that the manufacturer makes about the gun´s accuracy are very doubtful at best. It is claimed that the Arjun has a First Hit Probability (FHP) of 90%, even on the move, thanks to an excellent stabilizing system and Fire Control System (FCS). Comparative trials were conducted between the Arjun MkII and the T-90, where it was claimed that the Arjun MkII outperformed the T-90.
> 
> However, Indian Army Generals have since come out to say that those trials were rigged by corrupt defense officials, and that the accuracy of the Arjun MBT is vastly overestimated.



how test was rigged on the moving target.








Kailash Rava said:


> But the worst of all is the penetrating power of the Arjun´s main gun. At 2km, a round fired by the Arjun can only penetrate 300mm of Rolled Homogenous Armour (RHA).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is pitifully bad. *At 2km, this tank won´t even be able to penetrate the side armor of most modern MBTs*.
> 
> As a comparison, most modern APFSDS rounds can penetrate between 700 and 900 mm of armor at 2 km. *That´s 3x the penetration of the Arjun*.
> 
> The poor penetrating power of the Arjun is attributed to poor materials used for the penetrators, a low-pressure firing chamber and a short penetrator length.
> 
> *Soooo, if we recap:*
> 
> The mobility of the Arjun is terrible. Its armor is virtually non-existent with huge weak spots all around the turret, and its gun is horrendously inadequate by modern standards.
> 
> *There is a reason why even the Indian Army refuses to use the bloody thing. Only 100-200 Arjuns have been ordered to placate the government and DRDO (the Arjun manufacturer), while the Army relies on 1250 T-90 and 2500 T-72 MBTs.
> 
> Linkhttps://www.quora.com/How-does-the-Arjun-MBT-compare-with-other-battle-tanks-in-the-world*
> This is a answer by a quora guy



Another Crap
The mentioned tank round is, APFSDS (kinetic energy penetrator) , care to check T-90 APFSDS rounds. T72 tank round failed to make any dent on Arjun at point blank range.


*In January 2016, new tank ammunition called Penetration-Cum Blast (PCB) and Thermobaric (TB) ammunition, two specially designed rounds for the Arjun Tank, were tested.*

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## ptldM3

Dazzler said:


> The tank is so dreadful a performer that it's not fair to call it a battle tank, rather a pile of metal would suffice.




I think a think tank needs to behave a bit more professional then this. Lets discuss facts and not get too emotional or nationalistic.






Dazzler said:


> I've busted it over and over because as a part of arms industry, I know things that few could see. *The mere size of it, despite being big and bulky, *


*
*
Choose your arguments more wisely. It is in the size class as most western tanks, and even smaller in some dimensions. This may even come as a shocker but it has a lower profile then the Al-Khalid.








Dazzler said:


> makes you think who would dare to drive this miserable piece of trash.






I would, and without turning this into Arjun vs Al-Khalid, I would take this tank over the Al-Khalid every day of the week. Its armor protection is in a league of its own. 51 tons vs 75...is this even a question?





Dazzler said:


> If that's not enough, *the fragile suspension is so fragile that it cannot handle the 62 ton behemoth over rough terrain . if it fell over a slope, or had to jump, the suspension will rip apart.*


*


*
The Arjun has 14 suspension arms, most tanks have 12-10, this means its weight is distributed between 14 suspension arms. Even the heavier Arjun II has 5.35 tons per arm, a Challenger 2 with add on armor is 6.89 tons per arm, a Type 10 is 5.29 tons per arm. You are clearly being overly bias and just hating at this point.


Where is the suspension falling apart?










Dazzler said:


> The same goes for horrendous RWS over that turret, as if someone just pasted it there without considering that it'll lock commander and Gunners vision.











This is not fair, again you're bias, check out the Al-Khalid, both hatches are obscured by the panoramic sight and gunners sight.











Kailash Rava said:


> Let´s start with* mobility*:
> 
> The Arjun MkI is powered by a German*MTU MB 838 Ka-501 diesel* engine. This engine is a modernized version of the *MTU MB 838 CaM 500* multi-fuel engine that was first fitted to the Leopard 1 MBT in 1965. Thanks to various upgrades, and the addition of a supercharger, *the Ka-501 can reach 1400 hp while the CaM 500 can only reach 800 hp.*


*

*


Having tunned my engine for track racing i have to call you out on BS.

With the highlighted part...what is your point? If you remove a turbocharger or supercharger on *any engine* the performance will plummet. Even if the original engine is old once a turbocharger or supercharger is introduced the engine is fundamentally different, HP, Torque, fuel consumption, everything. For one you will need a ECM or engine management system, larger injectors and usually upgraded internals such as valve springs, upgraded pistons due to high compression, ect.

Even the computer management system (which can be custom tuned) alters fuel delivery, (lean or rich), valve timing, and overall HP and Torque.

As for the Arjun's performance, it is adequate. Protection was the first priority, mobility is second.









Kailash Rava said:


> So theoretically, the Arjun´s armor uses excellent materials. The problem here is the design of the armor itself.
> 
> The arjun´s gun shield is significantly thinner than other modern MBTs. In addition, the primary gunner sight does not have a extra armor module.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the left side of the turret is completely bereft of any composite armor (those white layers on the other side of the turret front). The gunner sits behind 250mm of spaced steel armor, and that´s it. Any modern APFSDS round will cut through that like it´s butter and vaporize the gunner.





Every tank has weak points, period. The gunners sight is overall small and will require a near head on shot to penetrate the tank. The sight is located deep inside the turret and is further shielded with the ERA armor around the sides, so again, small target which will require almost a head on shot to penetrate.

Many other tanks have the gunner's sight inside the turret.







Kailash Rava said:


> _Notice the huge weak spot created by the primary gunner sight_.
> 
> So the turret front is terrible. But the turret sides are even worse.







This is nonsense, again the frontal armor is one of the thickest in the world, nothing in Pakistan's or China's tank arsenal comes close to its protection. As for the side armor, take a look at the side armor of a Turkish leopard in Syria. All tanks have thin side turrets, at least the Arjun has less thin side armor then the Leopard.


Leopard side armor:











Kailash Rava said:


> Notice how the vaunted "Kanchan heavy composite armor" (the white layers of armor) leave 2/3rds of the turret sides exposed. The turret sides of the Arjun I&II are literally paper thin. Worse, *contrary to what the manufacturer claims there are no blowout panels on the Arjun MBT, nor is it equipped with a separate ammunition compartment*.






No blow out panels? really?













Kailash Rava said:


> *Firepower:*
> 
> If you thought the Arjun was a bad tank before, you haven´seen anything yet.
> 
> The Arjun MKI&II both use the same gun: a 120/55 mm rifled gun inspired by the British L30 rifled tank gun used by the British Challenger 2. Proponents of the tanks will tell you that because the gun is rifled, it is more accurate than the smoothbore guns used on the Abrams or the T-90.
> 
> That´s bullshit, to put it simple.
> 
> A rifled gun applies a spinning motion to the round it fires, meaning those rounds will be more stable when travelling through the air and more accurate over range. However, modern ammunition doesn´t need a rifled barrel to be accurate and stable, since they are equipped with little fins at the end of their penetrator, that apply a spinning motion to the round as it travels through the air. Put simply, modern ammunition spins itself, and doesn´t need a rifled gun to be accurate.






Yet the rifled 120mm British gun is combat proven and has some of the longest kills in tank warfare, so i don't get your point. The end result is accuracy, range and penetration. Rifled and smoothbore guns ultimately achieve the same or similar results. No one thing determines accuracy, its a combination of things. Looking at just the gun itself without factoring in the ballistic computer or munitions is narrow sited.








Kailash Rava said:


> But the worst of all is the penetrating power of the Arjun´s main gun. At 2km, a round fired by the Arjun can only penetrate 300mm of Rolled Homogenous Armour (RHA).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is pitifully bad. *At 2km, this tank won´t even be able to penetrate the side armor of most modern MBTs*.




That graphic has been around since dinosaurs roamed earth. Indian FSAPDS have a 500+ mm penetration figures. In early 2016 India was testing new tank rounds. New Indian FSAPDS's should exceed well beyond 600+ mm.







Kailash Rava said:


> The mobility of the Arjun is terrible.






It actually has a very long track base which gives it a low ground pressure that is even better then much lighter tanks, so your mobility claims, just like many other of your claims are out of touch with reality. Low ground pressure means it will have excellent mobility and perform well in mud or sand. Where it will struggle is probably steep inclines due to its weight.

@Water Car Engineer @Abingdonboy @Storm Force @Skull and Bones

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## Dazzler

ptldM3 said:


> I think a think tank needs to behave a bit more professional then this. Lets discuss facts and not get too emotional or nationalistic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
> Choose your arguments more wisely. It is in the size class as most western tanks, and even smaller in some dimensions. This may even come as a shocker but it has a lower profile then the Al-Khalid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would, and without turning this into Arjun vs Al-Khalid, I would take this tank over the Al-Khalid every day of the week. Its armor protection is in a league of its own. 51 tons vs 75...is this even a question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *
> The Arjun has 14 suspension arms, most tanks have 12-10, this means its weight is distributed between 14 suspension arms. Even the heavier Arjun II has 5.35 tons per arm, a Challenger 2 with add on armor is 6.89 tons per arm, a Type 10 is 5.29 tons per arm. You are clearly being overly bias and just hating at this point.
> 
> 
> Where is the suspension falling apart?
> 
> View attachment 374360
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 374362
> 
> 
> 
> This is not fair, again you're bias, check out the Al-Khalid, both hatches are obscured by the panoramic sight and gunners sight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Having tunned my engine for track racing i have to call you out on BS.
> 
> With the highlighted part...what is your point? If you remove a turbocharger or supercharger on *any engine* the performance will plummet. Even if the original engine is old once a turbocharger or supercharger is introduced the engine is fundamentally different, HP, Torque, fuel consumption, everything. For one you will need a ECM or engine management system, larger injectors and usually upgraded internals such as valve springs, upgraded pistons due to high compression, ect.
> 
> Even the computer management system (which can be custom tuned) alters fuel delivery, (lean or rich), valve timing, and overall HP and Torque.
> 
> As for the Arjun's performance, it is adequate. Protection was the first priority, mobility is second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every tank has weak points, period. The gunners sight is overall small and will require a near head on shot to penetrate the tank. The sight is located deep inside the turret and is further shielded with the ERA armor around the sides, so again, small target which will require almost a head on shot to penetrate.
> 
> Many other tanks have the gunner's sight inside the turret.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is nonsense, again the frontal armor is one of the thickest in the world, nothing in Pakistan's or China's tank arsenal comes close to its protection. As for the side armor, take a look at the side armor of a Turkish leopard in Syria. All tanks have thin side turrets, at least the Arjun has less thin side armor then the Leopard.
> 
> 
> Leopard side armor:
> 
> 
> View attachment 374363
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No blow out panels? really?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 374361
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet the rifled 120mm British gun is combat proven and has some of the longest kills in tank warfare, so i don't get your point. The end result is accuracy, range and penetration. Rifled and smoothbore guns ultimately achieve the same or similar results. No one thing determines accuracy, its a combination of things. Looking at just the gun itself without factoring in the ballistic computer or munitions is narrow sited.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That graphic has been around since dinosaurs roamed earth. Indian FSAPDS have a 500+ mm penetration figures. In early 2016 India was testing new tank rounds. New Indian FSAPDS's should exceed well beyond 600+ mm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It actually has a very long track base which gives it a low ground pressure that is even better then much lighter tanks, so your mobility claims, just like many other of your claims are out of touch with reality. Low ground pressure means it will have excellent mobility and perform well in mud or sand. Where it will struggle is probably steep inclines due to its weight.
> 
> @Water Car Engineer @Abingdonboy @Storm Force @Skull and Bones



Ah it's you again, long time no see, this time defending Arjun. That's nice. 

I request you to open a thread on flaws and strengths of Arjun mbt. Let's take the discussion there shall we? 

Waiting for your response.


----------



## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> Ah it's you again, long time no see, this time defending Arjun. That's nice.
> 
> I request you to open a thread on flaws and strengths of Arjun mbt. Let's take the discussion there shall we?
> 
> Waiting for your response.


The thing is every tank has flaws but as you claim to be tank specialist ,your claims including many been busted not just in PDF but also in *** and you shamelessly ask every other day ,lets make a thread.
Al Khalid vs Arjun .I remember those threads

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## ptldM3

Dazzler said:


> Ah it's you again, long time no see, this time defending Arjun. That's nice.
> 
> I request you to open a thread on flaws and strengths of Arjun mbt. Let's take the discussion there shall we?
> 
> Waiting for your response.




Why would I open a new thread about the Arjun when we are in the Arjun thread? Besides that the mods would probably move it back here or lock the thread. 

You made a number of claims, I beautifuly countered those claims, now I'm waiting for none bias rebuttal with facts not emotions.

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## Dazzler

ptldM3 said:


> Why would I open a new thread about the Arjun when we are in the Arjun thread? Besides that the mods would probably move it back here or lock the thread.
> 
> You made a number of claims, I beautifuly countered those claims, now I'm waiting for none bias rebuttal with facts not emotions.



Read again, I asked you to open a comparison thread, while this thread pertains to any new developments on Arjun.
Hope you got that bit. We are drifting offtopic here you know.


----------



## ptldM3

Dazzler said:


> Read again, I asked you to open a comparison thread, while this thread pertains to any new developments on Arjun.
> Hope you got that bit. We are drifting offtopic here you know.




I'm not here to compare anything, I just provide counter arguments of other people comparing the Arjun. You are the one that made many claims so either counter those claims or just concede you can't.



And why all the sudden now you want to keep this thread strictly "new developments on Arjun" when you called the tank "a peice of trash" and in general have not contributed anything positive to the thread.

You want to open a new thread about how the Arjun is "trash" and prove how its suspension "falls apart" then feel free but remember you made those claims.

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## GORKHALI

ptldM3 said:


> I'm not here to compare anything, I just provide counter arguments of other people comparing the Arjun. You are the one that made many claims so either counter those claims or just concede you can't.
> 
> 
> 
> And why all the sudden now you want to keep this thread strictly "new developments on Arjun" when you called the tank "a peice of trash" and in general have not contributed anything positive to the thread.
> 
> You want to open a new thread about how the Arjun is "trash" and prove how its suspension "falls apart" then feel free but remember you made those claims.


Point is - He knows Arjun tank better than those developed it.So shut up mate....

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## Dazzler

GORKHALI said:


> Point is - He knows Arjun tank better than those developed it.So shut up mate....



Those who made it know how incapable it is. So do your army.



ptldM3 said:


> I'm not here to compare anything, I just provide counter arguments of other people comparing the Arjun. You are the one that made many claims so either counter those claims or just concede you can't.
> 
> 
> 
> And why all the sudden now you want to keep this thread strictly "new developments on Arjun" when you called the tank "a peice of trash" and in general have not contributed anything positive to the thread.
> 
> You want to open a new thread about how the Arjun is "trash" and prove how its suspension "falls apart" then feel free but remember you made those claims.



That's what I've been saying. let's pile our arguments and counter arguments in a dedicated thread. Why ruin an information pool ? Gather some courage mate, it will be fun.


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## Hindustani78

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...stem-for-mbt-arjun-mk-ii-battle-tank-4524457/
By: PTI | Bengaluru | Published:February 14, 2017 5:38 pm




Main battle tank Arjun MK-II, the first indigenously designed and developed tank, also referred to as ‘Desert Ferrari’ for its excellent mobility, was also on display. The weaponry put on display by the Indian Army included T-90 tank ‘Bheeshma’, multi-launcher rocket system Smerch, Brahmos weapon system and transportable satellite terminals. Army tanks at the Republic Day Parade. (IE Photo: Prem Nath Pandey)


Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) on Tuesday unveiled a new Weapon Control system for 12.7 mm Gun of MBT Arjun Mk II battle tank, at Aero India 2017 air show. Remote Controlled Weapon Station (RCWS)/Air Defence Weapon Station (ADWS) is an improvised version of the manually operated air defence gun, the Bengaluru-based Navratna PSU said.

It enables the soldier to aim and fire at aerial targets from the safe interiors of the battle tank, BEL said in a release, noting that,  presently, the 12.7 mm guns of all tanks are manually operated.

RCWS integrated on MBT Mk II has successfully completed tank integration and firing trials in September 2015. RCWS has also been developed for use in Armed Repair and Recovery Vehicle (ARRV), it said.

It can also be mounted on hovercraft/fast moving boats for the Coast Guard, the release added.

The features of RCWS include, Remote Firing option, Automatic Cocking, DSP Based Brushless Drive Technology, 2 Axis Self-stabilised platform, Day Camera and Night Vision, Automated FCS and Ballistics corrections and Automatic Target Tracking.






BEL unveiled a new Weapon Control system — Remote Controlled Weapon Station (RCWS) / Air Defence Weapon Station (ADWS) for 12.7 mm Gun of MBT Arjun Mk II battle tank, at Aero India 2017 in Bengaluru on February 14, 2017.

The RCWS is an improvised version of the manually operated air defence gun. It enables the soldier to aim and fire at aerial targets from the safe interiors of the battle tank. Presently, the 12.7 mm guns of all tanks are manually operated. RCWS integrated on MBT Mk II has successfully completed tank integration and firing trials in September 2015. RCWS has also been developed for use in Armed Repair and Recovery Vehicle (ARRV). It can also be mounted on hovercraft / fast moving boats for the Coast Guard.

The features of RCWS include: Remote Firing option; Automatic Cocking; DSP Based Brushless Drive Technology; 2 Axis Self-stabilised platform; Day Camera & Night Vision; Automated FCS & Ballistics corrections; and Automatic Target Tracking.

* Salient Features*
The RCWS for MBT ARJUN Mk II is intended to lay and stabilise the NSVT 12.7 mm machine gun along with the optical sensors in traverse and elevation mounted on the MBT turret. The system allows the operator to control the gun and sight from the operating console and joy stick from inside the turret. The optical sensors include a day camera, Thermal Imager and a Laser Range Finder integrated on a single housing. The system allows automatic target tracking for air and ground targets and performs necessary ballistic computations to feed the ballistic offsets to the gun / sight. The system has a provision for the operator to do automatic loading and firing of the gun.

The system can operate on power mode without stabilisation or in stabilised mode where the gun along with the optical sensors is stabilised. The system can position the turret with an angular travel of 360 deg and elevate the gun in 60 to -5 degree elevation. The sight has a freedom of +/- 17 degree in azimuth and in elevation it can move from -5 to +60 degree. It operates from the 28V DC power source available on the tank. The RCWS meets all environmental specifications and EMI specifications as per MIL STD 461 F.






The GMS is the key sub-system of the Integrated Fire Control System, used in MBT ARJUN Tank to engage ground targets. GMS is an integrated Day cum Night sight,Consisting of Day sight, Thermal Imager & Laser Range finder. The GMS system is coupled to a Fire Control Computer (FCC) and a Gun Control System (GCS) thus enabling the tank and the gunner to engage ground targets, irrespective of it being stationary or moving, by day as well as night with the tank itself either being stationaryor on the move.

* FEATURES*
GMS performs the following functions


*Surveillance*
The day channel enables the gunner to engage the line of sight on the desired targets during day & the thermal imager performs the same function during day or night.
*Display*
The micro monitor in the Gunner's Control and Display and the mini monitor in the Commander's Control Station enable the display of video signal from the thermal imager and inlay of system information such as Bore sighting parameters, Wear counters, Calibration parameters and reticule.
* Calibration Parameters*

*Bore sighting*
The system has necessary controls for performing bore sighting alignment of LOS with the Gun at 1100 m
*Muzzle Reference System*
This function allows for the automatic measurement of angular difference between LOS and LOF to compensate for misalignment of the gun with respect to the GMS. Gun barrel misalignment / bending is mostly caused by temperature effects of the sun or during firing
*Drift Compensation*
The automatic drift procedure is performed in GMS slaved mode and stab mode compensates for the complete drift present due to the gyro's, the earth's rotation and electrical variations in system, in particular the control handles Has a powerful BITE facility which is able to detect most of failures and displays the failed functions in the monitors. Besides1 the failure detection, the BITE performs safety actions, in order to preserve the system integrity incase of a major failure.

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## ironman

..


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## Water Car Engineer

This thing is a bit more compact in size, but pretty much the same design.

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## Water Car Engineer

For Bharat Pack?

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## gslv mk3

Water Car Engineer said:


> For Bharat Pack?



That program is still active ?


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## Vertiti Scrutator

gslv mk3 said:


> That program is still active ?


It's one of the highest priority projects (National mission mode)!!!

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## gslv mk3

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> It's one of the highest priority projects (National mission mode)!!!



There wasn't any news of it lately


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## ironman



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## Water Car Engineer

gslv mk3 said:


> That program is still active ?




Very much so.

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## gslv mk3

Water Car Engineer said:


> Very much so.



The most powerful industrial/marine engine ever developed in India is Kirloskar's DV series, 1200 HP. So this doesn't look hard.


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## Water Car Engineer




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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

> The RCWS is armed with the 12.7 mm Russian NSVT heavy machine gun (MG), but other weapons can also be fitted, such as a 7.62 mm MG. The RCWS is designed to engage air and ground targets and is stabilised on two axes, with automated target tracking and a fire-control system.
> 
> The ammunition box is fitted on the right side of the system and the target acquisition and tracking module is located to the left. The latter includes a day camera, thermal imager, and a laser rangefinder. The day optical sensor has a range of 4 km, while the night sight has a range of 2 km.





> The complete system weighs about 200 kg, including the weapon and ammunition. The ammunition box will contain approximately 200 rounds.
> 
> The RCWS has received clearance for export.



http://www.janes.com/article/67714/aero-india-2017-bel-details-rcws-for-arjun-mk-ii



> Trials with the new RWS - that weighs 200kg - were successfully completed late last year. A BEL spokesman said seven months were spent on development, and a further 18 months on trials.





> The RWS means tank crewmen do not need to expose themselves by leaving the safety of their tank to operate the turret-mounted weapon. It is also planned to fit the system to armoured repair and recovery versions of the Arjun.



https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/aero-india-2017-bel-completes-rws-arjun/

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## Water Car Engineer

*Tank Ex, T72 CIA, Arjun Mark 1






Mark 2*

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## Water Car Engineer

> *Contrary to widespread speculation, the Indian Army (IA) has not forsaken or given up on the Arjun Mk.2 main battle tank (MBT). Instead, for the past four years, the IA’s Directorate General of Mechanised Warfare has been overseeing a collective developmental effort involving the DRDO, and the MoD-owned defence public-sector undertakings and private-sector OEMs that will in the near future result in a fully-loaded 60-tonne MBT armed with a 120mm smoothbore cannon while retaining the existing 1,400hp powerpack.*






> *For starters, the baseline hull of the Arjun Mk.2 will no longer be built with imported low-carbon, nickel-chromium-molybdenum rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) steel, but with lighter high-nitrogen steel (HNS) whose production technology has been mastered by the DRDO’s Hyderabad-based Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) and has been transferred to Jindal Stainless Steel Ltd (Hisar). HNS will also be used by TATA Motors Ltd for producing the 83 Kestrel 8 x 8 armoured personnel carriers already on order. *



==============================================================




> *To ensure optimal weight budgeting during the production engineering stage, the CVRDE has contracted Dynamatic Technologies Ltd, which specialises in complex, five-axis robotic machining, as well as in converting two-dimension paper blueprints into three-dimension computer model that are more precise, and have tighter tolerances. Digitising the drawings creates a baseline configuration for greater accuracy. This in turn streamlines manufacturing, since conventional manufacturing based on two-dimensional paper blueprints tend to leave tiny gaps between the different components of an assembly that were filled with shims, leading to increased weight. But by digitising blueprints, those tiny gaps can be entirely eliminated during the manufacturing process.*





> *Under another weight-reduction exercise, the CVRDE has contracted the Alicon Group for building all-aluminium road-wheels and ventilators for not only the Arjun Mk.2, but also for the IA’s existing upgraded T-72CIA medium tanks.They will replace the all-steel road-wheels built bySundaram Industries for the Arjun Mk.1A. *





> *Similarly, TATA Power SED has been contracted for producing all-electric turret stabilisation/traverse systems, in place of the existing electro-hydraulic system. *














New cooling system for existing 1400hp engine.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2017/03/arjun-mk2-mbt-now-firm-reality.html

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## Water Car Engineer

Asper Gupta, the latest fsapds achieved 600mm+ penetration against RHA. They are trying to achieve 650mm+. Rifle bore is being dumped, because the HESH round is being replaced with new thermobaric and penetration timed delay rounds.






PCB






Thermo

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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> For Bharat Pack?












Water Car Engineer said:


> Asper Gupta, the latest fsapds achieved 600mm+ penetration against RHA. They are trying to achieve 650mm+. Rifle bore is being dumped, because the HESH round is being replaced with new thermobaric and penetration timed delay rounds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PCB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thermo




With thermo and PCB bunker buster rounds, HESH is redundant.



Water Car Engineer said:


> ==============================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New cooling system for existing 1400hp engine.
> 
> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2017/03/arjun-mk2-mbt-now-firm-reality.html



Arjun Mark 2, Kestrel, FICV, FRCV, etc. and all future armor will be produced with high-nitrogen steel (HNS) instead of traditional rolled homogeneous armor (RHA). DMRL-DRDO have given ToT to Jindal Steel.

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## Water Car Engineer

*BHUBANESWAR: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on Wednesday successfully test-fired an anti-tank weapon having a strike range of 5 km from a next-gen tank at a defence test facility off Odisha coast.*


*Defence sources said the ammunition, fired from main battle tank (MBT) Arjun Mk-II at the firing point-II of the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) at Chandipur during noon, hit the target as expected.*


*“The high explosive anti-tank weapon was fired from the indigenously developed Arjun tank in salvo mode against a decommissioned tank. In this complicated exercise, the ammunition successfully hit the tank,” said a defence official from New Delhi.*


The aim and objective of the test was to capture data generated during the trial and analyse it whether the weapon had that required effect on the target. Besides gauging the efficiency of the advanced Arjun tank which is a pride of DRDO, the test also confirmed the firepower of the ammunition.


*“Similar trials also have been planned in coming days. Though open firing from Arjun tank has been conducted in the Pokhran range of Rajasthan several times, this time an instrumented tank was targeted during the trial,” the official said.*


The Arjun is a third generation main battle tank developed by DRDO. It features a 120 mm main rifled gun with indigenously developed armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot ammunition, one PKT 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun and an NSVT 12.7 mm machine gun.


The tank is powered by a single MTU multi-fuel diesel engine rated at 1,400 hp and can achieve a maximum speed of 67 km/h and a cross-country speed of 40 km/h.


The tank has proved its worth under various circumstances. In 2015, it had received global accolades with the Chinese military officials praising the tank which suits Indian conditions. Arjun was commissioned in the Army in 2004 while its Mk-II version has undergone design changes for better firepower.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...n-test-from-mbt-arjun-successful-1590469.html

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## monitor

Water Car Engineer said:


> *BHUBANESWAR: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on Wednesday successfully test-fired an anti-tank weapon having a strike range of 5 km from a next-gen tank at a defence test facility off Odisha coast.*
> 
> 
> *Defence sources said the ammunition, fired from main battle tank (MBT) Arjun Mk-II at the firing point-II of the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) at Chandipur during noon, hit the target as expected.*
> 
> 
> *“The high explosive anti-tank weapon was fired from the indigenously developed Arjun tank in salvo mode against a decommissioned tank. In this complicated exercise, the ammunition successfully hit the tank,” said a defence official from New Delhi.*
> 
> 
> The aim and objective of the test was to capture data generated during the trial and analyse it whether the weapon had that required effect on the target. Besides gauging the efficiency of the advanced Arjun tank which is a pride of DRDO, the test also confirmed the firepower of the ammunition.
> 
> 
> *“Similar trials also have been planned in coming days. Though open firing from Arjun tank has been conducted in the Pokhran range of Rajasthan several times, this time an instrumented tank was targeted during the trial,” the official said.*
> 
> 
> The Arjun is a third generation main battle tank developed by DRDO. It features a 120 mm main rifled gun with indigenously developed armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot ammunition, one PKT 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun and an NSVT 12.7 mm machine gun.
> 
> 
> The tank is powered by a single MTU multi-fuel diesel engine rated at 1,400 hp and can achieve a maximum speed of 67 km/h and a cross-country speed of 40 km/h.
> 
> 
> The tank has proved its worth under various circumstances. In 2015, it had received global accolades with the Chinese military officials praising the tank which suits Indian conditions. Arjun was commissioned in the Army in 2004 while its Mk-II version has undergone design changes for better firepower.
> 
> http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...n-test-from-mbt-arjun-successful-1590469.html




Which missile ? Nag?


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## Water Car Engineer

monitor said:


> Which missile ? Nag?








CLGM

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## Robinhood Pandey

BHUBANESWAR: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on Wednesday successfully test-fired an anti-tank weapon having a strike range of 5 km from a next-gen tank at a defence test facility off Odisha coast.


Defence sources said the ammunition, fired from main battle tank (MBT) Arjun Mk-II at the firing point-II of the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) at Chandipur during noon, hit the target as expected.


“The high explosive anti-tank weapon was fired from the indigenously developed Arjun tank in salvo mode against a decommissioned tank. In this complicated exercise, the ammunition successfully hit the tank,” said a defence official from New Delhi.


The aim and objective of the test was to capture data generated during the trial and analyse it whether the weapon had that required effect on the target. Besides gauging the efficiency of the advanced Arjun tank which is a pride of DRDO, the test also confirmed the firepower of the ammunition.


“Similar trials also have been planned in coming days. Though open firing from Arjun tank has been conducted in the Pokhran range of Rajasthan several times, this time an instrumented tank was targeted during the trial,” the official said.



The Arjun is a third generation main battle tank developed by DRDO. It features a 120 mm main rifled gun with indigenously developed armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot ammunition, one PKT 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun and an NSVT 12.7 mm machine gun.



The tank is powered by a single MTU multi-fuel diesel engine rated at 1,400 hp and can achieve a maximum speed of 67 km/h and a cross-country speed of 40 km/h.


The tank has proved its worth under various circumstances. In 2015, it had received global accolades with the Chinese military officials praising the tank which suits Indian conditions. Arjun was commissioned in the Army in 2004 while its Mk-II version has undergone design changes for better firepower.

@Nilgiri @Water Car Engineer @GORKHALI @ranjeet @Abingdonboy 

I dont trust New Indian Express at all . .any oher source reported his ?

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## Robinhood Pandey



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## vikata

this tank should be forced upon army
enough of their love for foren maal

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## GORKHALI

Robinhood Pandey said:


> BHUBANESWAR: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on Wednesday successfully test-fired an anti-tank weapon having a strike range of 5 km from a next-gen tank at a defence test facility off Odisha coast.
> 
> 
> Defence sources said the ammunition, fired from main battle tank (MBT) Arjun Mk-II at the firing point-II of the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) at Chandipur during noon, hit the target as expected.
> 
> 
> “The high explosive anti-tank weapon was fired from the indigenously developed Arjun tank in salvo mode against a decommissioned tank. In this complicated exercise, the ammunition successfully hit the tank,” said a defence official from New Delhi.
> 
> 
> The aim and objective of the test was to capture data generated during the trial and analyse it whether the weapon had that required effect on the target. Besides gauging the efficiency of the advanced Arjun tank which is a pride of DRDO, the test also confirmed the firepower of the ammunition.
> 
> 
> “Similar trials also have been planned in coming days. Though open firing from Arjun tank has been conducted in the Pokhran range of Rajasthan several times, this time an instrumented tank was targeted during the trial,” the official said.
> 
> 
> 
> The Arjun is a third generation main battle tank developed by DRDO. It features a 120 mm main rifled gun with indigenously developed armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot ammunition, one PKT 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun and an NSVT 12.7 mm machine gun.
> 
> 
> 
> The tank is powered by a single MTU multi-fuel diesel engine rated at 1,400 hp and can achieve a maximum speed of 67 km/h and a cross-country speed of 40 km/h.
> 
> 
> The tank has proved its worth under various circumstances. In 2015, it had received global accolades with the Chinese military officials praising the tank which suits Indian conditions. Arjun was commissioned in the Army in 2004 while its Mk-II version has undergone design changes for better firepower.
> 
> @Nilgiri @Water Car Engineer @GORKHALI @ranjeet @Abingdonboy
> 
> I dont trust New Indian Express at all . .any oher source reported his ?


Kinda confusing to be honest,even if its ATGM ,why it says High explosive weapon. ATGM are mostly top attack and tandem warhead.


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## Robinhood Pandey

GORKHALI said:


> Kinda confusing to be honest,even if its ATGM ,why it says High explosive weapon. ATGM are mostly top attack and tandem explosive.



New Indian Express is notoriously famous for brain farting

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## theman111

so now dont need spike


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> *BHUBANESWAR: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on Wednesday successfully test-fired an anti-tank weapon having a strike range of 5 km from a next-gen tank at a defence test facility off Odisha coast.*
> 
> 
> *Defence sources said the ammunition, fired from main battle tank (MBT) Arjun Mk-II at the firing point-II of the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) at Chandipur during noon, hit the target as expected.*
> 
> 
> *“The high explosive anti-tank weapon was fired from the indigenously developed Arjun tank in salvo mode against a decommissioned tank. In this complicated exercise, the ammunition successfully hit the tank,” said a defence official from New Delhi.*
> 
> 
> The aim and objective of the test was to capture data generated during the trial and analyse it whether the weapon had that required effect on the target. Besides gauging the efficiency of the advanced Arjun tank which is a pride of DRDO, the test also confirmed the firepower of the ammunition.
> 
> 
> *“Similar trials also have been planned in coming days. Though open firing from Arjun tank has been conducted in the Pokhran range of Rajasthan several times, this time an instrumented tank was targeted during the trial,” the official said.*
> 
> 
> The Arjun is a third generation main battle tank developed by DRDO. It features a 120 mm main rifled gun with indigenously developed armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot ammunition, one PKT 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun and an NSVT 12.7 mm machine gun.
> 
> 
> The tank is powered by a single MTU multi-fuel diesel engine rated at 1,400 hp and can achieve a maximum speed of 67 km/h and a cross-country speed of 40 km/h.
> 
> 
> The tank has proved its worth under various circumstances. In 2015, it had received global accolades with the Chinese military officials praising the tank which suits Indian conditions. Arjun was commissioned in the Army in 2004 while its Mk-II version has undergone design changes for better firepower.
> 
> http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...n-test-from-mbt-arjun-successful-1590469.html


The article doesn't say explicitly that it's CLGM; 
but the way it is described 
"_objective of the test was to capture data generated during the trial and analyse it whether the weapon had that required effect on the target"_
this could just be a HEAT round.


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## Water Car Engineer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> The article doesn't say explicitly that it's CLGM;
> but the way it is described
> "_objective of the test was to capture data generated during the trial and analyse it whether the weapon had that required effect on the target"_
> this could just be a HEAT round.



Those can travel upwards of 5km?


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> Those can travel upwards of 5km?


Tank rounds have a range of 4-5 kms.
Isn't it curious that the word 'missile' or CLGM was never used in the article? We also know that DRDO/Army has been testing newer types of explosives recently (like thermobaric etc). The description that the objective of the test was to estimate the 'damage' on the target (not so much the guidance) lends itself more to the speculation that it was a regular anti-tank round with some new explosive.
Indian defense reporters need to learn a lot about 'reporting'!! They always throw out ambiguous and misleading (often erroneous too) reports! And of course, fanboys should not be jumping to overly optimistic conclusions


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## Vertiti Scrutator

This is more likely a test for a HEAT round and not CLGM. Note that the test was to assess and collect data on the damage done to the target and not so much on the guidance etc. DRDO has been developing several types of newer explosives - this must be one such.


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## Water Car Engineer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Tank rounds have a range of 4-5 kms.
> Isn't it curious that the word 'missile' or CLGM was never used in the article? We also know that DRDO/Army has been testing newer types of explosives recently (like thermobaric etc). The description that the objective of the test was to estimate the 'damage' on the target (not so much the guidance) lends itself more to the speculation that it was a regular anti-tank round with some new explosive.
> Indian defense reporters need to learn a lot about 'reporting'!! They always throw out ambiguous and misleading (often erroneous too) reports! *And of course, fanboys should not be jumping to overly optimistic conclusions*




I'll do whatever I want, next time I will say it's shooting out rockets.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> I'll do whatever I want, next time I will say it's shooting out rockets.


Dude, no need to get so offended!! Was just trying to clarify information.
You're free to believe whatever you want - jump to conclusions or jump all the way to the target yourself.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

With a little bit of looking around....I found this:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/849860409494573056Saurav Jha is reasonably trustworthy for accurate info...
So, the rumors of this test being for CLGM are demonstrably wrong!


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> Oh yeah?! Next time it's going to be a ballistic missile coming out of it!


My specialty is helping people with information; I can't be of any help with insanity. Good luck buddy! Keep your balance and post on...


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> Oh okay, next time it's going to be a nasr coming out of it.


Well, you need to post that on the Al-Khalid thread, not on this thread!

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## Water Car Engineer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Well, you need to post that on the Al-Khalid thread, not on this thread!



It's going to be cloned, Arjun will fire it.


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## asad71

Meanwhile Arjun may have entered the Guinness Book of Records for taking the longest time to develop.

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## Zarvan

*DRDO scientists* have been developing the Arjun M- 2 Main Battle Tank since 2012. Arjun MK-2 is said to be a substantially improved and more capable version of the Arjun MK 1, 118 of which are now in delivery. But the Army has a problem with the weight of the tank: it weighs approximately 68 tons with scientists trying to lighten the load. Sources said scientists will use indigenously developed lighter high nitrogen steel in the baseline hull of the tank. _*They will also use all-aluminium road-wheels instead of all-steel road wheels and ventilators to reduce the weight.
*_
The Indian Army wanted Arjun MK 2 to weigh 50-55 tons but the DRDO has conveyed its inability to bring it down to that level. The Army is said to have objected to the tank's 68-ton weight, saying it was too heavy and limited the area where it can be deployed.

*India Successfully Tests Next-Gen Arjun Battle Tank’s Strike Capabilities*- The Indian Army looks set to be going ahead with the indigenously developed Arjun MK-2 Main Battle Tank going by the successful trials being reported in by defense scientists.

Importantly, scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) saw the successful test of an anti-tank weapon with a strike range of five kilometers at the Balasore testing facility. Scientists test-fired high explosive anti-tank weapon from Arjun MK-2 in salvo mode against a decommissioned tank. Sources said the test was successful and it had the desirable impact on the target.

In February this year, Bharat Electronics had unveiled a remote controlled weapon station (RCWS) for 12.7 mm gun of MBT Arjun Mk-2 battle tank at Aero India 2017 in Bangalore. This enabled the soldier to aim and fire at aerial targets from the safe interiors of the battle tank. Presently, the 12.7 mm guns of all tanks are manually operated. The RCWS is armed with the 12.7 mm Russian NSVT heavy machine gun. Other weapons like 7.62 mm MG can also be fitted with it.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/04/drdo-scientists-attempting-to-bring.html


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## Hassan Guy

needs new diet

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## Alok Arya

Zarvan said:


> *DRDO scientists* have been developing the Arjun M- 2 Main Battle Tank since 2012. Arjun MK-2 is said to be a substantially improved and more capable version of the Arjun MK 1, 118 of which are now in delivery. But the Army has a problem with the weight of the tank: it weighs approximately 68 tons with scientists trying to lighten the load. Sources said scientists will use indigenously developed lighter high nitrogen steel in the baseline hull of the tank. _*They will also use all-aluminium road-wheels instead of all-steel road wheels and ventilators to reduce the weight.
> *_
> The Indian Army wanted Arjun MK 2 to weigh 50-55 tons but the DRDO has conveyed its inability to bring it down to that level. The Army is said to have objected to the tank's 68-ton weight, saying it was too heavy and limited the area where it can be deployed.
> 
> *India Successfully Tests Next-Gen Arjun Battle Tank’s Strike Capabilities*- The Indian Army looks set to be going ahead with the indigenously developed Arjun MK-2 Main Battle Tank going by the successful trials being reported in by defense scientists.
> 
> Importantly, scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) saw the successful test of an anti-tank weapon with a strike range of five kilometers at the Balasore testing facility. Scientists test-fired high explosive anti-tank weapon from Arjun MK-2 in salvo mode against a decommissioned tank. Sources said the test was successful and it had the desirable impact on the target.
> 
> In February this year, Bharat Electronics had unveiled a remote controlled weapon station (RCWS) for 12.7 mm gun of MBT Arjun Mk-2 battle tank at Aero India 2017 in Bangalore. This enabled the soldier to aim and fire at aerial targets from the safe interiors of the battle tank. Presently, the 12.7 mm guns of all tanks are manually operated. The RCWS is armed with the 12.7 mm Russian NSVT heavy machine gun. Other weapons like 7.62 mm MG can also be fitted with it.
> 
> http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/04/drdo-scientists-attempting-to-bring.html





Weight will bring down to approx 60 tons by using hn steel and all aluminium and all steel wheel and new construction approach to minimise the gap between parts . Further weight reduction of 2-3 ton would be possible by redesigning of turret .


----------



## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

Alok Arya said:


> Weight will bring down to approx 60 tons by using hn steel and all aluminium and all steel wheel and new construction approach to minimise the gap between parts . Further weight reduction of 2-3 ton would be possible by redesigning of turret .


still 5-10 ton above requirement.
Need to replace the big gun with machine gun


----------



## Alok Arya

naveedullahkhankhattak said:


> still 5-10 ton above requirement.
> Need to replace the big gun with machine gun



Not 5 to 10 ton . It is only 2 to 3 tons above of 55 tons of army demand .


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

Whatever the issues Arjun Mk1 faced, the Mk2 fiasco is caused by plain stupidity. 
DRDO and Army were clearly NOT talking - it was a stupid miscommunication. DRDO spent years incorporating the 90+ new requirement into Mk2, and nowhere it occured to DRDO that they should inform the Army that the add-ons (like mine-plough) will increase the weight of the tank; and no where it occured to the Army to ask or tell that the weight should not increase.

At least on this fiasco, DRDO was honest that they screwed up on the communication side. The bigger issue is not just the extra year that they will be spending to incorporate lighter materials, but the several more years that they'll need to spend rerunning all the tests (summer trials, winter trials, moon walking trials, zero gravity trials.....)

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## X_Killer

Confirmed! 
CLGM was tested and not any tank rounds from Arjun Mk 2 in reported test.
Confirming our very first assessment, CLGM was tested from Arjun MK II main battle tank. The missile carrying a HEAT warhead successfully destroyed a target tank 5 km away. 
CLGM is Indian version of LAHAT. LAHAT is 105mm tandem HEAT warhead with a range of almost 7 kms, whereas CLGM is 120mm tandem HEAT warhead with range upto 5kms, CLGM has midcourse change software which can be used to switch target in mid flight.


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

X_Killer said:


> Confirmed!
> CLGM was tested and not any tank rounds from Arjun Mk 2 in reported test.
> Confirming our very first assessment, CLGM was tested from Arjun MK II main battle tank. The missile carrying a HEAT warhead successfully destroyed a target tank 5 km away.
> CLGM is Indian version of LAHAT. LAHAT is 105mm tandem HEAT warhead with a range of almost 7 kms, whereas CLGM is 120mm tandem HEAT warhead with range upto 5kms, CLGM has midcourse change software which can be used to switch target in mid flight.


That's good news know if its true.
Could you share how you were able to confirm that it was CLGM that was tested.

The image looks like Arjun Mk1 firing a regular tank round.


----------



## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

Alok Arya said:


> Not 5 to 10 ton . It is only 2 to 3 tons above of 55 tons of army demand .


you said 60 ton which is 5 ton more than 55 and 10 ton more than 50.
Plz go to school for math classes.


----------



## X_Killer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> That's good news know if its true.
> Could you share how you were able to confirm that it was CLGM that was tested.
> 
> The image looks like Arjun Mk1 firing a regular tank round.


Image is for representation only.
It was actually tested on ARJUN MK2.
It is confirmed by one of my uncle working with DRDO

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## Alok Arya

X_Killer said:


> Image is for representation only.
> It was actually tested on ARJUN MK2.
> It is confirmed by one of my uncle working with DRDO



Dear Mr Egale , it is just a harsh remark to prevent derailing of thread as member do not read my post properly and start trolling . It is not fare for you to remove my post only . He also make a harsh remark , you should also remove his post .


----------



## Dazzler

Alok Arya said:


> Weight will bring down to approx 60 tons by using hn steel and all aluminium and all steel wheel and new construction approach to minimise the gap between parts . Further weight reduction of 2-3 ton would be possible by redesigning of turret .



You cannot bring down the weight without substantially redesigning the whole mbt, not just by tweaking some areas here and there.


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> I'll do whatever I want, next time I will say it's shooting out rockets.





Dazzler said:


> You cannot bring down the weight without substantially redesigning the whole mbt, not just by tweaking some areas here and there.


Depends on what you call 'redesigning'. There is a redesign in the sense that different material would be used. The expectation is that the High-Nitrogen-Stell being stronger, one would need less of the steel; further the steel wheels are replaced by lighter aluminum ones. The designers feel confident that 7-8 tonnes could be reduced. 
The issue I feel is how many more years will be spent in the hot-cold-jungle-desert-dirt trials!!!

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## X_Killer

Alok Arya said:


> Dear Mr Egale , it is just a harsh remark to prevent derailing of thread as member do not read my post properly and start trolling . It is not fare for you to remove my post only . He also make a harsh remark , you should also remove his post .


Dude, mention your issue properly.
I'm unable to understand you


----------



## kṣamā

X_Killer said:


> Image is for representation only.
> It was actually tested on ARJUN MK2.
> It is confirmed by one of my uncle working with DRDO


Had it been a different thread, I would have very strongly advised you not to spread insider info freely on a public domain forum. But you are the bearer of good news of my pet program. How can I be mad at you... 

OnTopic: This is a big news guys. Not only CLGM is a big deal but the weight reduction with high Nitrogen no nickel steel is a huge step in right direction. HNS is not only lightweight as compared to RHS but about 40% cheaper. This is without any drop in penetration characteristics. One more thing to note is even with a cursory look on the mechanical specs sheet, you can see it is quite similar to SSAB's Armox 500T protection plates. They are regarded as one of the toughest protection plates in business. 
DRDO HNS:-
Thickness: 8mm to 50mm
Hardness(HV min) : 370
Elongation(% min) : 20

Armox 500T
Thickness: 8mm to 50mm
Hardness(HV min) : 508(+37%)
Elongation(% min) : 10(-50%)

One major difference on general high nitrogen steels and the one developed by DRDO is the absence of Nickle. Ni-Fe allows are known to have dimensional invariance even @ high temperatures. There is a reason why FeNi36 is called Invar. 
From chemical composition side DRDO's HNS has simpler composition than Armox 500T. DRDO uses following composition C :0.05%, Cr: 17.5%, Mn:17.5%, N :0.60%, Si:0.30%, P:0.06, S:0.015%. Armox T500 composition C:0.32%, Cr: 1.0%, Mn:1.2%, Si:0.4%,P:0.010%, S=0.003%, Ni=1.8%, Mo=0.7%, B=0.005%

It is clear from the chemistry that Armox is not a high nitrogen steel and is a considerable expensive than DRDO's alloy. 

Even if this type of steel is good development for tank armor plating, I would like to see similar development of lighter titanium - iron alloys. Not only they have excellent weight characteristics, they are better than HNS in penetration characteristics. 

On a separate note, how many nations have their own CLGM like projects and how do they stack against our CLGM...?

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## Vertiti Scrutator

kṣamā said:


> Had it been a different thread, I would have very strongly advised you not to spread insider info freely on a public domain forum. But you are the bearer of good news of my pet program. How can I be mad at you...
> 
> OnTopic: This is a big news guys. Not only CLGM is a big deal but the weight reduction with high Nitrogen no nickel steel is a huge step in right direction. HNS is not only lightweight as compared to RHS but about 40% cheaper. This is without any drop in penetration characteristics. One more thing to note is even with a cursory look on the mechanical specs sheet, you can see it is quite similar to SSAB's Armox 500T protection plates. They are regarded as one of the toughest protection plates in business.
> DRDO HNS:-
> Thickness: 8mm to 50mm
> Hardness(HV min) : 370
> Elongation(% min) : 20
> 
> Armox 500T
> Thickness: 8mm to 50mm
> Hardness(HV min) : 508(+37%)
> Elongation(% min) : 10(-50%)
> 
> One major difference on general high nitrogen steels and the one developed by DRDO is the absence of Nickle. Ni-Fe allows are known to have dimensional invariance even @ high temperatures. There is a reason why FeNi36 is called Invar.
> From chemical composition side DRDO's HNS has simpler composition than Armox 500T. DRDO uses following composition C :0.05%, Cr: 17.5%, Mn:17.5%, N :0.60%, Si:0.30%, P:0.06, S:0.015%. Armox T500 composition C:0.32%, Cr: 1.0%, Mn:1.2%, Si:0.4%,P:0.010%, S=0.003%, Ni=1.8%, Mo=0.7%, B=0.005%
> 
> It is clear from the chemistry that Armox is not a high nitrogen steel and is a considerable expensive than DRDO's alloy.
> 
> Even if this type of steel is good development for tank armor plating, I would like to see similar development of lighter titanium - iron alloys. Not only they have excellent weight characteristics, they are better than HNS in penetration characteristics.
> 
> On a separate note, how many nations have their own CLGM like projects and how do they stack against our CLGM...?


Also the RHA steel used in Mk1 was imported; the use of indigenous HNS steel would decrease the import dependence.

I think only Israel and Russia have produced CLGM like tank fired anti-tank missiles.

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## X_Killer

kṣamā said:


> Had it been a different thread, I would have very strongly advised you not to spread insider info freely on a public domain forum. But you are the bearer of good news of my pet program. How can I be mad at you...


I take care of sensitive information.
Anyways, I don't have any intention to hijack your pet Program. 
Good day

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## kṣamā

X_Killer said:


> I take care of sensitive information.
> Anyways, I don't have any intention to hijack your pet Program.
> Good day


No No please by all means. Would love to hear more. Obviously not the classified stuff.

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/854790681587535872
--------------------------------------

http://idrw.org/cvrde-invites-bids-development-supply-1500-hp-engine-power-arjun-mk-ii/


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## Water Car Engineer



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## kṣamā

Water Car Engineer said:


>


What is that tank? T90? Arjun?


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## Robinhood Pandey

kṣamā said:


> What is that tank? T90? Arjun?



Arjun . .look at the turret length and smoke grenade position


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## bananarepublic

May i ask why does arjun use a 120 mm barrel rather than a 125 mm barrael you it just puts more strain on parts for tanks the Indians have a diverse set of tanks making it expensive to maintain them also what use is a 120mm barrel in conditions of pak-india war


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## Lord Of Gondor

bananarepublic said:


> May i ask why does arjun use a 120 mm barrel rather than a 125 mm barrael you it just puts more strain on parts for tanks the Indians have a diverse set of tanks making it expensive to maintain them


Commonality with NATO, I guess.
The ammo used by Israeli/French MBTs can also be used by the Arjun(by and large).


bananarepublic said:


> also what use is a 120mm barrel in conditions of pak-india war


The Arjun's gun is rifled so it's accuracy is very good and has fired special ammo like PCB(Penetration cum Blast) shells




and Thermobaric Shells

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## Hassan Guy

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...on-proposals-could-delay-induction-by-7-years

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army is seeking major structural and design changes in the homegrown Arjun Mk-2, but the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization says the "changes" could take up to seven years, causing a delay in the induction schedule. 

The service wants DRDO to redesign the hull, the turret structures and use newer material to reduce the tank's weight. The Arjun Mk-2 currently weighs about 68.6 tons, compared to the 62-ton Arjun Mk-1 tank currently in operation with the Army. The Mk-2 version's weight makes it inappropriate for operations in the semi-developed sector of the western front bordering Pakistan where tank battles would take place, according to an Indian Army official. 

According to a defense analyst here, the Army "has lost interest in the Arjun Mark-2" after it became disillusioned with the earlier version. "The problem is that the basic structure and profile of the tank being heavy is not acceptable to the Army," said Rahul Bhonsle, who retired from the service as a brigadier. 

The Indian Army has inducted 124 Arjun Mk-1 tanks, but several were grounded after requiring spare parts and maintenance. "Nearly 55 percent of the value of Arjun Mark-1 tank is imported components, and there the supplies have dried up." 

A DRDO scientist who spoke to Defense News would not comment on the Army's modification proposals, but did say the Arjun Mk-2 is "ready for induction," has a total of 93 upgrades including 13 major improvements and "will fully meet the needs of the Indian Army." 

The major changes to the Arjun Mk-2 include an upgrade of the missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to effectively engage targets at night, containerized ammunition, enhanced main-weapon penetration, additional ammunition types, explosive-reactive armor, an advanced air-defense gun to engage helicopters, a mine plow, an advanced land navigation system and a warning system that can fire smoke grenades to confuse laser guidance. 

"Arjun Mark-2, with [a] number of improvements over Arjun Mark-I, is a third-generation tank comparable with others in range and confirmed acceptable after trial and evaluation by users. Hence, there should be no reason for its not being fit for combat," according to Bhupinder Yadav, a defense analyst and retired Indian Army major general. 

The Army has about 3,500 tanks made up of T-72 tanks and the newer T-90 tanks. 

"All T-72 tanks in service would have lived their life in [the] next 10 years and will require replacement," Yadav said. 

To meet future tank needs, analysts tend to agree that India should invest in a new, homemade Future Main Battle Tank, or FMBT, based on lessons learned from the Arjun Mk-1 and Mk-2. 

"India, with the experience of the development of two variants, should go on its own, and the new design should have homogeneity with the existing inventory," Yadav offered. 

Bhonsle agreed: "India should pursue a single project such as the FMBT with the Army, DRDO and other agencies including foreign research and design developers and private sector joining in a coordinated effort."


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## cerberus

By that time 458 T-90 MS will be deployed  DRDO is Snail in some sectors


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## SDS1

No its not their fault, Army asked DRDO to install Anti tank plough which weight itself more then tonnes...... so its strategy to get only Russian tank, they get good kickbacks.

if army made light tank , they asked for heavy tanks then....

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## hussain0216

You've waited 40 years, whats another 7


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## Stephen Cohen

We will buy Armata after 2025


----------



## ejaz007

*Indian Army's tank modification proposals could delay induction by 7 years*
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, April 24, 2017 (Photo Credit: Sanjay Kanojia/AFP via Getty Images)

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army is seeking major structural and design changes in the homegrown Arjun Mk-2, but the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization says the "changes" could take up to seven years, causing a delay in the induction schedule. 

The service wants DRDO to redesign the hull, the turret structures and use newer material to reduce the tank's weight. The Arjun Mk-2 currently weighs about 68.6 tons, compared to the 62-ton Arjun Mk-1 tank currently in operation with the Army. The Mk-2 version's weight makes it inappropriate for operations in the semi-developed sector of the western front bordering Pakistan where tank battles would take place, according to an Indian Army official. 

According to a defense analyst here, the Army "has lost interest in the Arjun Mark-2" after it became disillusioned with the earlier version. "The problem is that the basic structure and profile of the tank being heavy is not acceptable to the Army," said Rahul Bhonsle, who retired from the service as a brigadier. 

The Indian Army has inducted 124 Arjun Mk-1 tanks, but several were grounded after requiring spare parts and maintenance. "Nearly 55 percent of the value of Arjun Mark-1 tank is imported components, and there the supplies have dried up." 

A DRDO scientist who spoke to Defense News would not comment on the Army's modification proposals, but did say the Arjun Mk-2 is "ready for induction," has a total of 93 upgrades including 13 major improvements and "will fully meet the needs of the Indian Army." 

The major changes to the Arjun Mk-2 include an upgrade of the missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to effectively engage targets at night, containerized ammunition, enhanced main-weapon penetration, additional ammunition types, explosive-reactive armor, an advanced air-defense gun to engage helicopters, a mine plow, an advanced land navigation system and a warning system that can fire smoke grenades to confuse laser guidance. 

"Arjun Mark-2, with [a] number of improvements over Arjun Mark-I, is a third-generation tank comparable with others in range and confirmed acceptable after trial and evaluation by users. Hence, there should be no reason for its not being fit for combat," according to Bhupinder Yadav, a defense analyst and retired Indian Army major general. 

The Army has about 3,500 tanks made up of T-72 tanks and the newer T-90 tanks. 

"All T-72 tanks in service would have lived their life in [the] next 10 years and will require replacement," Yadav said. 

To meet future tank needs, analysts tend to agree that India should invest in a new, homemade Future Main Battle Tank, or FMBT, based on lessons learned from the Arjun Mk-1 and Mk-2. 

"India, with the experience of the development of two variants, should go on its own, and the new design should have homogeneity with the existing inventory," Yadav offered. 

Bhonsle agreed: "India should pursue a single project such as the FMBT with the Army, DRDO and other agencies including foreign research and design developers and private sector joining in a coordinated effort." 

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...on-proposals-could-delay-induction-by-7-years


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Well these idiots wont have any representative from the army during design phases and after thae army finds out flaws they tend to cry. Typical!

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## Shivani87

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well these idiots wont have any representative from the army during design phases and after thae army finds out flaws they tend to cry. Typical!



Nobody is clean. Everybody knows what is happening and why. The army knows, DRDO knows and MOD knows. The crying, the improvements, the mismanagement is all part of the script played out at very high level and there is enough money to go around for everyone.

The ONLY solution is private indian players. They can manage the script as well as any foreign party. Thats the only way to keep the money in India. Corruption is impossible to root out.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Han Patriot

ejaz007 said:


> *Indian Army's tank modification proposals could delay induction by 7 years*
> By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, April 24, 2017 (Photo Credit: Sanjay Kanojia/AFP via Getty Images)
> 
> NEW DELHI — The Indian Army is seeking major structural and design changes in the homegrown Arjun Mk-2, but the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization says the "changes" could take up to seven years, causing a delay in the induction schedule.
> 
> The service wants DRDO to redesign the hull, the turret structures and use newer material to reduce the tank's weight. The Arjun Mk-2 currently weighs about 68.6 tons, compared to the 62-ton Arjun Mk-1 tank currently in operation with the Army. The Mk-2 version's weight makes it inappropriate for operations in the semi-developed sector of the western front bordering Pakistan where tank battles would take place, according to an Indian Army official.
> 
> According to a defense analyst here, the Army "has lost interest in the Arjun Mark-2" after it became disillusioned with the earlier version. "The problem is that the basic structure and profile of the tank being heavy is not acceptable to the Army," said Rahul Bhonsle, who retired from the service as a brigadier.
> 
> The Indian Army has inducted 124 Arjun Mk-1 tanks, but several were grounded after requiring spare parts and maintenance. "Nearly 55 percent of the value of Arjun Mark-1 tank is imported components, and there the supplies have dried up."
> 
> A DRDO scientist who spoke to Defense News would not comment on the Army's modification proposals, but did say the Arjun Mk-2 is "ready for induction," has a total of 93 upgrades including 13 major improvements and "will fully meet the needs of the Indian Army."
> 
> The major changes to the Arjun Mk-2 include an upgrade of the missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to effectively engage targets at night, containerized ammunition, enhanced main-weapon penetration, additional ammunition types, explosive-reactive armor, an advanced air-defense gun to engage helicopters, a mine plow, an advanced land navigation system and a warning system that can fire smoke grenades to confuse laser guidance.
> 
> "Arjun Mark-2, with [a] number of improvements over Arjun Mark-I, is a third-generation tank comparable with others in range and confirmed acceptable after trial and evaluation by users. Hence, there should be no reason for its not being fit for combat," according to Bhupinder Yadav, a defense analyst and retired Indian Army major general.
> 
> The Army has about 3,500 tanks made up of T-72 tanks and the newer T-90 tanks.
> 
> "All T-72 tanks in service would have lived their life in [the] next 10 years and will require replacement," Yadav said.
> 
> To meet future tank needs, analysts tend to agree that India should invest in a new, homemade Future Main Battle Tank, or FMBT, based on lessons learned from the Arjun Mk-1 and Mk-2.
> 
> "India, with the experience of the development of two variants, should go on its own, and the new design should have homogeneity with the existing inventory," Yadav offered.
> 
> Bhonsle agreed: "India should pursue a single project such as the FMBT with the Army, DRDO and other agencies including foreign research and design developers and private sector joining in a coordinated effort."
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/articles...on-proposals-could-delay-induction-by-7-years


50% imported content? Isn't it supposedly indigenous, and majority of the tanks are grounded? This is sheer incompetence.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## DESERT FIGHTER

SDS1 said:


> No its not their fault, Army asked DRDO to install Anti tank plough which weight itself more then tonnes...... so its strategy to get only Russian tank, they get good kickbacks.
> 
> if army made light tank , they asked for heavy tanks then....


Mine plough isn't a part of the rank... any tank can accept it...



Han Patriot said:


> 50% imported content? Isn't it supposedly indigenous, and majority of the tanks are grounded? This is sheer incompetence.


55%.


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## Water Car Engineer

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Mine plough isn't a part of the rank... any tank can accept it...



That's not what he meant, it's a part of mark 2's requirement, it is a part of that tank.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Water Car Engineer said:


> That's not what he meant, it's a part of mark 2's requirement, it is a part of that tank.


A plough can be installed or taken off any time.


----------



## Abingdonboy



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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


>


What is to the right of the gunners sight??


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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/888468248693309442

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/888469786035761152

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/888469276411035648









2 and 3 manned layout being conceptualized.

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## m haris khan

INDIAN DEFENCE DEAL WITH DIFFERENT COUNTRIES


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## Water Car Engineer

Upgraded T72, using the ERA panels from Arjun Mark 2's development.

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## Gessler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Upgraded T72, using the ERA panels from Arjun Mark 2's development.



Need more pics of this (new development)?


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## Lord Of Gondor

Gessler said:


> Need more pics of this (new development)?











Credits to @Water Car Engineer

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

*Arjun's RCWS 12.7mm AA Gun*

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Upgraded T72, using the ERA panels from Arjun Mark 2's development.


Any idea how many are being upgraded and at what rate?


+ ideally IA would also be fitting new 1000hp engines to the T-72s, especially those to be used in the mountains.


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Any idea how many are being upgraded and at what rate?
> 
> 
> + ideally IA would also be fitting new 1000hp engines to the T-72s, especially those to be used in the mountains.




It is getting an uprated 1000hp engine. No numbers yet, but if we use the previous upgrade, I am sure many are getting the refit.

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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> Upgraded T72, using the ERA panels from Arjun Mark 2's development.

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## Water Car Engineer

*MOBILE CAMOUFLAGE SYSTEM (MCS): *MCS has been successfully developed & trailed has been conducted on T-90 tank under collaboration of DL, Jodhpur. Field evaluation was carried out by 15th Armed Regt, Jaisalmer, Rajasthan during May 2015.

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## CONNAN

Just for refreshing and info , that we do have BLT to support Arjun fleet
*Armored bridgelayer*
*Arjun BLT*

*



*
*



*

*



*
Arjun transported by Train











@THANKS TO K B for photos

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## Water Car Engineer

More of the upgraded T72

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## Robinhood Pandey

Water Car Engineer said:


> More of the upgraded T72



these are in house upgrades or kits from Russia ?


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## Water Car Engineer

Robinhood Pandey said:


> these are in house upgrades or kits from Russia ?




Inhouse, it is branch off from the ERAs developed for the Arjun Mark 2.



Water Car Engineer said:


> More of the upgraded T72









A bunch of T72s are about to look very similar to the T90s around.

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## desimorty

> A bunch of T72s are about to look very similar to the T90s around.


They are already pretty much the same thing.


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## X_Killer

Water Car Engineer said:


> It is getting an uprated 1000hp engine. No numbers yet, but if we use the previous upgrade, I am sure many are getting the refit.


Either its getting a brand new 1000hp Engine (maybe polish) or modified and Uprated one ?


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## Water Car Engineer

X_Killer said:


> Either its getting a brand new 1000hp Engine (maybe polish) or modified and Uprated one ?









Not new, uprated engine from 780hp to 1000hp.

Plus, there are weight reduction done with new materials replacing old ones.

Example --







A lot of what's being done is branches offs from the Arjun mark 2 experience.


The new added ERA layout is the same weight as the older layout.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## The_Sidewinder

Water Car Engineer said:


>



MKII looks awesome

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## X_Killer

Water Car Engineer said:


> Not new, uprated engine from 780hp to 1000hp.
> 
> Plus, there are weight reduction done with new materials replacing old ones.
> 
> Example --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of what's being done is branches offs from the Arjun mark 2 experience.
> 
> 
> The new added ERA layout is the same weight as the older layout.


What is the present scenario About Arjun's weight reduction process?


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## Water Car Engineer

X_Killer said:


> What is the present scenario About Arjun's weight reduction process?




Heard they managed 3 tons off, wait and see.

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## Papa Dragon

Water Car Engineer said:


>


What is the current weight of MkII and how much would it go down to after the modifications?


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Papa Dragon said:


> What is the current weight of MkII and how much would it go down to after the modifications?




68 tons, IA recently right in the middle of trials said they want a weight reduction to 55 ton, which is completely unreasonably, considering they also want new ERA, new electronics, APU, mine plough, etc, etc. DRDO says it can do only 3-5 tons at best.

Lighter high-nitrogen steel will be used instead of RHA. An all electric turret stabilisation and traverse systems will replace existing electro-hydraulic system. Aluminium road wheels and ventilators will be used. Some manufacturing practices as well in it's construction, assembly will reduce some weight as well.

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## Papa Dragon

Water Car Engineer said:


> 68 tons, IA recently right in the middle of trials said they want a weight reduction to 55 ton, which is completely unreasonably, considering they also want new ERA, new electronics, APU, mine plough, etc, etc. DRDO says it can do only 3-5 tons at best.
> 
> Lighter high-nitrogen steel will be used instead of RHA. An all electric turret stabilisation and traverse systems will replace existing electro-hydraulic system. Aluminium road wheels and ventilators will be used. Some manufacturing practices as well in it's construction, assembly will reduce some weight as well.


Looks like IA is gonna kill this project too in favor of Russian tanks for kickbacks and commissions.


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## GuardianRED

Papa Dragon said:


> Looks like IA is gonna kill this project too in favor of Russian tanks for kickbacks and commissions.


What @watercarengineer has mention is couple of months old news and that this has already been implemented and production has started!

*Jindal SHL to make high-nitrogen steel for Defence sector*
By 
Nishtha Saluja
, ET Bureau|
Updated: Mar 01, 2017, .. 

NEW DELHI: Stainless steel maker Jindal Stainless (Hisar) Ltd. has entered into an agreement with Defence Research & Development Organisation under which the government agency will transfer technology to manufacture high nitrogen steel for the defence sector to the company. 

The deal comes after decade-long joint efforts in research and development by JSHL and Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory, the DRDO’s research wing, to develop the material. 

“The transfer of breakthrough technology paves the way for development of equipment-specific application of high nitrogen steel (HNS) in the context of the army’s ongoing and futuristic programmes,” Abhyuday Jindal, vice chairman of JSHL, told reporters in the city on Wednesday. 

The technology transfer will boost the government’s ‘Make in India’ programme, Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said. The DRDO works under the Department of Defence Research and Development of th .. 

High nitrogen steel is corrosion-resistant, has better holistic capabilities and mechanical properties and is better than the material imported now, Jindal added. 

“We want to be a strategic partner, work with PSUs, work with private industries, to supply this strategic raw material. That is our strength, we want to focus on it," Jindal told ET. 

JSHL is working to produce additional variants of HNS with enhanced blast and ballistic protection to cater to niche requirements of the Indian defence sector. The potential applications of HNS include combat platforms like futuristic infantry combat vehicles, mine-protected vehicles, army bridges and army corridors. 


Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


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## duhastmish

Water Car Engineer said:


> 68 tons, IA recently right in the middle of trials said they want a weight reduction to 55 ton, which is completely unreasonably, considering they also want new ERA, new electronics, APU, mine plough, etc, etc. DRDO says it can do only 3-5 tons at best.
> 
> Lighter high-nitrogen steel will be used instead of RHA. An all electric turret stabilisation and traverse systems will replace existing electro-hydraulic system. Aluminium road wheels and ventilators will be used. Some manufacturing practices as well in it's construction, assembly will reduce some weight as well.


bribe them and they will do witj 168 ton.

a local production even if not upto mark can help economy in big way. make extra plans around it instead of making strategy and get product. lets make our stratrgy around our products. but india hai yahan sab golmaal hai.


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## Papa Dragon

GuardianRED said:


> What @watercarengineer has mention is couple of months old news and that this has already been implemented and production has started!
> 
> *Jindal SHL to make high-nitrogen steel for Defence sector*
> By
> Nishtha Saluja
> , ET Bureau|
> Updated: Mar 01, 2017, ..
> 
> NEW DELHI: Stainless steel maker Jindal Stainless (Hisar) Ltd. has entered into an agreement with Defence Research & Development Organisation under which the government agency will transfer technology to manufacture high nitrogen steel for the defence sector to the company.
> 
> The deal comes after decade-long joint efforts in research and development by JSHL and Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory, the DRDO’s research wing, to develop the material.
> 
> “The transfer of breakthrough technology paves the way for development of equipment-specific application of high nitrogen steel (HNS) in the context of the army’s ongoing and futuristic programmes,” Abhyuday Jindal, vice chairman of JSHL, told reporters in the city on Wednesday.
> 
> The technology transfer will boost the government’s ‘Make in India’ programme, Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said. The DRDO works under the Department of Defence Research and Development of th ..
> 
> High nitrogen steel is corrosion-resistant, has better holistic capabilities and mechanical properties and is better than the material imported now, Jindal added.
> 
> “We want to be a strategic partner, work with PSUs, work with private industries, to supply this strategic raw material. That is our strength, we want to focus on it," Jindal told ET.
> 
> JSHL is working to produce additional variants of HNS with enhanced blast and ballistic protection to cater to niche requirements of the Indian defence sector. The potential applications of HNS include combat platforms like futuristic infantry combat vehicles, mine-protected vehicles, army bridges and army corridors.
> 
> 
> Read more at:
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


But I don't think HNS can still bring the weight down to 55tons from 68tons as prescribed by the army. Only way this can happen is if Indian private defense players start bribing IA officials who are involved in the procurement process


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## X_Killer

Even if , DRDO will reduce it upto 60ton than it will be more than fine.
Further reduction in weight will increase the maneuverability but it will lower don its stability while firing its main gun


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## GuardianRED

Papa Dragon said:


> But I don't think HNS can still bring the weight down to 55tons from 68tons as prescribed by the army. Only way this can happen is if Indian private defense players start bribing IA officials who are involved in the procurement process


As i said Already Done !! .. production has started. So where is the question of bribing anyone?


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## Water Car Engineer

Papa Dragon said:


> But I don't think HNS can still bring the weight down to 55tons from 68tons as prescribed by the army. Only way this can happen is if Indian private defense players start bribing IA officials who are involved in the procurement process




Nothing will, why I said they put out a unrealistic requirement(surprise, surprise).

DRDO, says they can do only 3-5 tons.

However, something interesting will come out with the make over. From sengupta source, IA also wants smoothbore. New PCB, thermo round makes HESH irrelevant.

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## X_Killer

I'm in lighter mood now. So, Dil pe mat Lena yar

As we all believe that DRDO men are bribe lovers than we should bribe them to make it light, without reducing Capabilities.

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## Papa Dragon

GuardianRED said:


> As i said Already Done !! .. production has started. So where is the question of bribing anyone?


So you're saying army agreed with the 3 ton weight reduction and compromised on their request for 55tons and production has started with the 62-65ton Arjun Mk2!

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## Water Car Engineer

*T90s and T72s being transported *


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## GuardianRED

Papa Dragon said:


> So you're saying army agreed with the 3 ton weight reduction and compromised on their request for 55tons and production has started with the 62-65ton Arjun Mk2!


First !!!.. has any official statement or Info has come out saying they want 55tons or is it some unnamed source???

Second!!! We all have the prototype weight.... But do we have the final production weight? the answer is NO.

All we know that production has started .... and have to wait for the Official figures for come out for the Standard mk2


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## Papa Dragon

GuardianRED said:


> First !!!.. has any official statement or Info has come out saying they want 55tons or is it some unnamed source???
> 
> Second!!! We all have the prototype weight.... But do we have the final production weight? the answer is NO.
> 
> All we know that production has started .... and have to wait for the Official figures for come out for the Standard mk2


I'm not questioning your post but what we know is army has reservations regarding the weight of the tank and they come up with some improvements that are to be added and we've seen reports that there maybe delays of 7 years if the necessary structural and design changes are to be made. BTW, where did you get info that production has started?


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## Water Car Engineer



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## The_Sidewinder

Water Car Engineer said:


>


* Beast looks Sexy  *

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## kmc_chacko

Water Car Engineer said:


>



I still don't understand why IA is not ordering this beast in large numbers


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## Water Car Engineer

kmc_chacko said:


> I still don't understand why IA is not ordering this beast in large numbers




They added on more requirements deep into trials.


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## Water Car Engineer

High Nitrogen Steel (HNS), Silicon Carbide (SiC) armour sandwich armour solutions in the works.



















DRDO TRAWL System in T72 platform










DRDO Flail Sytem on T72 and Arjun platform

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## kmc_chacko

Water Car Engineer said:


> They added on more requirements deep into trials.



My Foundry is one of the supplier, for parts of MBT and presently orders are in Token numbers. But buyer is assuring us a big ticket buy. But . . . . . . unlike other orders MBTs are not moving.


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## surya kiran

kmc_chacko said:


> My Foundry



Which company? And who is the buyer?


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## kmc_chacko

surya kiran said:


> Which company? And who is the buyer?



Details - Sorry, I have limitations as we have singed lot of NDAs. 

But strange part i have noted is many of PSUs and Pvt Ltd orders are having common in designs patterns so its difficult to say whether its going to NS or Metros .


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## surya kiran

kmc_chacko said:


> Details - Sorry, I have limitations as we have singed lot of NDAs.
> 
> But strange part i have noted is many of PSUs and Pvt Ltd orders are having common in designs patterns so its difficult to say whether its going to NS or Metros .



no problem.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Dark Lord Forever

any new arjun orders??? 

any progress on arjun mk3??? 

or arjun is now officialy abondoned??


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## X_Killer

Dark Lord Forever said:


> any new arjun orders???
> 
> any progress on arjun mk3???
> 
> or arjun is now officialy abondoned??


Total 336 Arjun MBTs (248 Mk-I and 118 Mk-II) are ordered till now and more may be expected after weight refine process and for your kind info there is nothing like Arjun mk3.
You should do some research and be literate before trolling ...

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## Gessler

X_Killer said:


> Total 336 Arjun MBTs (248 Mk-I and 118 Mk-II) are ordered till now and more may be expected after weight refine process and for your kind info there is nothing like Arjun mk3.
> You should do some research and be literate before trolling ...



It's 248 total. 

124 Mk-1 and 118 Mk-2.

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## X_Killer

Gessler said:


> It's 248 total.
> 
> 124 Mk-1 and 118 Mk-2.



This is what I mentioned...

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## GORKHALI

X_Killer said:


> This is what I mentioned...
> View attachment 427533


Plzzzzzzzzzz wikipedia

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## Gessler

X_Killer said:


> This is what I mentioned...
> View attachment 427533



Well Wiki is wrong about that. Please check with other, more reliable sources.


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## Dark Lord Forever

X_Killer said:


> Total 336 Arjun MBTs (248 Mk-I and 118 Mk-II) are ordered till now and more may be expected after weight refine process and for your kind info there is nothing like Arjun mk3.


i know about old orders i was asking for any new orders.



Gessler said:


> It's 248 total.
> 
> 124 Mk-1 and 118 Mk-2.


thank you.

its been long time. and no new arjun order. strange above order is only token order. so i wonder when new big order will come. or something wrong?


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## GuardianRED

Dark Lord Forever said:


> i know about old orders i was asking for any new orders.
> 
> 
> thank you.
> 
> its been long time. and no new arjun order. strange above order is only token order. so i wonder when new big order will come. or something wrong?


compensation is needed to add to your list of you being an "expart"

118 Mk2s


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## Water Car Engineer

DRDO have done an internal study on where to go with the next generation of tank. This is without any proper GSQR from the IA.

One is the evolutionary concept, basically an evolution of the Arjun platform.

The other is the revolutionary design.














A modular family of tanks, basically a lighter Armata.

This concept is what they're working on.






Old concept from around 2015

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## Water Car Engineer

*Arjun Based Armored Recovery Vehicle *

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## Water Car Engineer

T72 UPG

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## Water Car Engineer

*Uprated (780 to 1000 HP) engine for T72 upgrade






T72 UPG






Mark 2 in a EMC chamber 
*









*Arjun Based Armored Recovery Vehicle *

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## Water Car Engineer

*









Composite road wheel, composite top roller and composite axle arm, which accounts for a weight reduction of 1.22 t. Weight reduction of Mark 2 using lighter materials. *


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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Composite road wheel, composite top roller and composite axle arm, which accounts for a weight reduction of 1.22 t. Weight reduction of Mark 2 using lighter materials. *













*CVRDE has developed high performance Carbon fibre reinforced carbon Brake discs for Main Brake assembly of MBT Arjun

The weights of brakes were compared with that of monolithic steel material, generally used for manufacturing brake discs and found a saving of weight by 75%.*

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## Water Car Engineer

*Mark 2 in EMC chamber*

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## Hindustani78

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/61621553.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

The Army last week issued the preliminary tender or request for information (RFI) to global armament giants for an initial 1,770 futuristic tanks called the future ready combat vehicles (FRCVs) geared for "rapid dominance in an expanded battle space", while the IAF is getting set to do the same for 114 single-engine fighters soon. 

Instead of ordering say around 500 Arjun tanks, which would have stabilised production lines, achieved economies of scale and paved the way for development of a futuristic MBT, the Army has inducted only 124 Arjun Mark-1 tanks till now. 






* Arjun tank display during the exhibition 'Science for Soldiers' organised by DRDO at Avadi in Chennai. * 


The Army is not willing to order 118 Arjun Mark-II tanks, costing over Rs 6,600 crore, till they clear field trials. "The FRCV project, if it takes off, will kill the indigenous FMBT project," said a scientist. 

But all this cuts little ice with the forces, which say the DRDO-defence PSU lobby "over-promises and then under-delivers" with huge time and cost overruns. "Can operational military readiness be sacrificed at the altar of indigenisation?" asked a lieutenant general.


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## Hindustani78




----------



## Hindustani78

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...hanger-army/article20460822.ece?homepage=true

The two ambitious projects to equip the Army with futuristic combat vehicles are a game changer for the Indian industry, a senior Army officer said on Wednesday.

“The Futuristic Infantry Combat vehicle (FICV) and Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV) programmes are going to be the biggest game changers for the Indian defence industry ecosystem… Sometimes big ticket items take little more time but they do not fall. I am confident that very shortly you will hear the FICV going into the next level,” said Lt. Gen. AB Shivane, Director General Mechanized Forces while addressing a seminar on armoured vehicles organised by the Centre for Joint Warfare Studies.

The FICV is an ambitious effort to indigenously design and manufacture a futuristic infantry vehicle by the private industry by roping in foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers.

The Army has a requirement for more than 2,600 vehicles.

On the other hand, the FRCV is a tender for the procurement of futuristic tanks through the Strategic Partnership model. Last week, the Army had issued the Request For Information (RFI) for 1,771 tanks. Lt. Gen. Shivane said the FRCV would replace the Russian T-72 tanks presently in service.

Speaking at the seminar, Army Chief Gen. Bipin Rawat said the Army was passing through an important phase in equipment management.

*Arjun tanks to continue*

Rejecting reports that the FRCV programme would “scuttle” the indigenous Arjun tank, Lt. Gen. Shivane said the service had already inducted the Arjun Mk-1 tanks.


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## Water Car Engineer

*Future Ready Combat Vehicles (FRCVs) Will Not Discard Arjun Mk-II Tank: Lt Gen AB Shivane*

Tender for Future Ready Combat Vehicles (FRCVs) is not a global tender but will be procured under strategic partnership. The new tank will be indigenous tank, in which IPR and technology will be owned by India. The tank will be India to replace old fleet of T-72, which were inducted in 1972. Life of a tank is 32 years, which can further be extended by 4-5 years. Then we have to look for another tank to plug gap in our security.

Arjun Mk-I is already with Indian Army and under stabilization. The indigenous content is increased. We will look at Arjun Mark-II as MBT Arjun Mk-I become fully indigenous and stabilized. FRCV is not discarding Arjun Mk-II.

Arjun Mk-II is under trial and orders are placed when trials get completed. Integrated trials with missile firing capability are yet to be conducted. T-72 was inducted in 1979 and T -90 in 2001. We are upgrading the fleet as its getting older. Many factor are being consolidated to make that battle ready as on date either on western front or on northern front.


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## Water Car Engineer

*Engine programs for MBTs, IFVs*

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## Water Car Engineer

*Turret 1 -- Leo style, boxy turret - The design chosen*










*Turret 2 -- Arrow style turret*






*Turret 3 -- Sloping turret


Early prototypes discovered *

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## Flying.modi

CHECK OUT THIS VDO FOR ALL UPDATES ABOUT ARJUN TANK

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## leapx

Water Car Engineer said:


>



500 mm is not good enogh ，isn't it？


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## Water Car Engineer

leapx said:


> 500 mm is not good enogh ，isn't it？




No, but there is finally progress in this area after a long delay. There's a lot of work being done here now. You're going to see much longer penetration.


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## Han Patriot

leapx said:


> 500 mm is not good enogh ，isn't it？


Equivalent to our 80s tech I guess.


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## leapx

Dose *Arjun-II still carry a rifled gun？*


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## leapx

Han Patriot said:


> Equivalent to our 80s tech I guess.



probably.

We were under huge pressure of Soviet Tanks for a long time and We did learn a lot from western technology in the 80S.

PLA also has 120mm anti-tank gun, the 89 anti-tank self-propelled gun. The retirement started since 2015. it is not worthy to keep both 120mm and 125mm.


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## X_Killer

leapx said:


> Dose *Arjun-II still carry a rifled gun？*


Yup, mk-2 has 120mm rifled gun..


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## Smriti95

FSAPDS MK2 is sufficient for the Type 96 & Type 85II.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Latest FMBT concept

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## holysaturn

Water Car Engineer said:


> Latest FMBT concept


The hatches on the turret and a single drivers hatch in the chassis suggest it is otherwise, isn't this a conventional three crew tank?


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Arjun Based Armored Recovery Vehicle *

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## -------

Water Car Engineer said:


>



Would have been nice if they could hide the hydraulic piping and hydraulic cylinder...


----------



## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/966498028856270848

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/966498028856270848


Another feel good announcement that proves nothing. Without sharing penetration values, there is nothing new.


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> Another feel good announcement that proves nothing. Without sharing penetration values, there is nothing new.




Wait and see, the ball is rolling regarding armor fighting vehicles are concerned. Comparatively to several years ago.


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## MimophantSlayer

Dazzler said:


> Another feel good announcement that proves nothing. Without sharing penetration values, there is nothing new.



I'm sure we'll know about it eventually.
Besides its not like the penetration power will decrease from the initial versions.

Plus, Defexpo 2018 is coming this April.
Some DRDO pavillion will most probably have the specs.


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## Water Car Engineer

Unmanned attack vehicle concept in the works. First phase using BMP hull.

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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> *CVRDE has developed high performance Carbon fibre reinforced carbon Brake discs for Main Brake assembly of MBT Arjun
> 
> The weights of brakes were compared with that of monolithic steel material, generally used for manufacturing brake discs and found a saving of weight by 75%.*





Water Car Engineer said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Composite road wheel, composite top roller and composite axle arm, which accounts for a weight reduction of 1.22 t. Weight reduction of Mark 2 using lighter materials. *








More weight saving measures

To use rubber composite wheels and track


----------



## Water Car Engineer

In an important move, the ‘Made in India’ Arjun Mark-2 tank project is set to see the light of the day. 



Chairman of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Dr S Christopher in an interview to The Tribune said, “We have had a meeting with the Vice-Chief of the Indian Army where it was agreed on accepting Mark-2. Modalities are being worked out”. Once done, the acceptance of necessity (AON) for 118 will be revived, he added. 


The AON is decided by the Defence Acquisition Council headed by the Defence Minister. A total of 93 modifications have been done on the first version of Arjun — 124 were inducted — in 2010-2011. 


On being asked if the Army was okay with the weight of the tank, the DRDO boss said: “The weight (the tank is almost 58 tonnes) has been accepted; that is a major change”. Most modern European tanks are of the same weight, and tank-transporters (specialised trucks) for Arjun are available. 


The DRDO has promised to set up a system to maintain the Arjun Mark-2 within India. It will be an annual maintenance contract with the Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) as a possible agency, Dr Christopher said. On the trials, he said, “These have done 4,000 kms of run, the upgrades will be tested.” 

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/arjun-mark-2-tank-set-to-see-light-of-day/563832.html

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## Water Car Engineer

There is a NGERA being developed. Completely outside the recent ERA mark 2 what Arjun mark 2, soon T90, and upgraded T72s will be use.


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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/975646537136001024


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## Water Car Engineer

*Tonbo Imaging Wolf Pack 360 Surveillance For Armour and Naval vessels*


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Optics upgrade for BMP2s


























A Mark 2






TRAWL










ARRV

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## MimophantSlayer



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## Water Car Engineer

*India's Kalyani Group and French firm Plansee Tungsten Alloys also announced the forming of their strategic partnership in the areas of "special metallic penetrators" required for manufacture of high-end ammunition. *


https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...eapons-and-platforms/articleshow/63708601.cms

Looks like Bharat Forge will be producing some APFSDSs.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## MimophantSlayer



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## MimophantSlayer




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## Water Car Engineer

Reliance Defence is producing the hull and turret, right?


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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1026400999286571008

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Is this like the slowest tank project ever or what?


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## Frozr

When is the Arjun Mk2 production due to start?


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## Water Car Engineer

Frozr said:


> When is the Arjun Mk2 production due to start?




When IA accepts it. IA went into the middle of trials mandating further weight reduction. Reliance defence and OFB are fabricating the new hull.

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## Hindustani78

* DAC also clears procurement of 1,000 engines for Army’s tanks *

The *Defence *Acquisition Council (DAC) on Tuesday approved several amendments to the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2016 to reduce time lines and streamline the process and also approved procurement of 1,000 engines for the Army’s tanks.

“The tanks are of 1,000 BHP to be procured under ‘Buy and Make’ category. Post transfer of technology most of these engines will be manufactured by Ordnance Factories Board,” the Defence Ministry said in a statement.

*Time period*
The major change to DPP is limiting the time period for executing repeat order to five years after date of completion of warranty of final delivery in the previous contract. Other amendments include permission to commence benchmarking of cost for equipment immediately on receipt of the trial report in the Service headquarters, legislating provisions for exchange rate variations when pursuing procurement with an ‘Option Clause’ among others.

The DAC also approved doing away with bank guarantee for certain essential parameters if the same are trial evaluated during field evaluations trials.


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## Water Car Engineer

*Reliance Infra To Deliver Prototype Parts For Arjun Mark II Battle Tank Six Months Ahead Of Schedule*


Reliance Infra is planning to deliver the hull and turret prototype parts for India’s main battle tank (MBT), Arjun Mark II, to Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) six months ahead of schedule, _The HinduBusinessLine_ has reported.

*“We are ready to deliver the hull and turret for the Arjun Mark II MBT six months ahead of schedule. This is amongst the first such projects to be awarded to the private sector in India, with the longer-term objective of creating alternative capacities and capabilities,” a Reliance spokesperson told The HinduBusinessLine.*

The CVRDE has been looking to increase production of the MBT to meet Indian Army’s requirements. Therefore, it had roped in private players along with the Ordnance Factory Board, the public sector unit (PSU) which was already supplying parts. The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had given approval for acquiring 118 Arjun Mark II MBTs at a cost of Rs 6,600 crore.

The Arjun Mark II version weighs less than 50 tonnes and has 90 improvements over its previous version (Mark I). It also relies largely on indigenous components. Reliance is targeting business worth Rs 2,500 crore in defence manufacturing once mass production starts, according to the report.

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Reliance Infra To Deliver Prototype Parts For Arjun Mark II Battle Tank Six Months Ahead Of Schedule*
> 
> 
> Reliance Infra is planning to deliver the hull and turret prototype parts for India’s main battle tank (MBT), Arjun Mark II, to Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) six months ahead of schedule, _The HinduBusinessLine_ has reported.
> 
> *“We are ready to deliver the hull and turret for the Arjun Mark II MBT six months ahead of schedule. This is amongst the first such projects to be awarded to the private sector in India, with the longer-term objective of creating alternative capacities and capabilities,” a Reliance spokesperson told The HinduBusinessLine.*
> 
> The CVRDE has been looking to increase production of the MBT to meet Indian Army’s requirements. Therefore, it had roped in private players along with the Ordnance Factory Board, the public sector unit (PSU) which was already supplying parts. The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had given approval for acquiring 118 Arjun Mark II MBTs at a cost of Rs 6,600 crore.
> 
> The Arjun Mark II version weighs less than 50 tonnes and has 90 improvements over its previous version (Mark I). It also relies largely on indigenous components. Reliance is targeting business worth Rs 2,500 crore in defence manufacturing once mass production starts, according to the report.



If the hull and turret re-fabrication with new materials is to be believed, the whole program just got delayed for several more years. The testing alone may take two years and subsequent changes will be validated. Simply put, whoever is in charge of the project is screwing it pretty badly. The IA is not amused and i can see why.

First, they designed an overweight behemoth and boasted all around it. Then, they thought about weight reduction?? Didnt DRDO/ CVRDE know from the word go that anything above 50 metric ton will have a tormenting time in the Thar/ Cholistan desert? It all seems to be about milking the army and extract $$.

Someone should write a book on this whole episode. All this is costing the IA dearly and they are forced to see alternative solutions.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> If the hull and turret re-fabrication with new materials is to be believed, the whole program just got delayed for several more years. The testing alone may take two years and subsequent changes will be validated. Simply put, whoever is in charge of the project is screwing it pretty badly. The IA is not amused and i can see why.
> 
> First, they designed an overweight behemoth and boasted all around it. Then, they thought about weight reduction?? Didnt DRDO/ CVRDE know from the word go that anything above 50 metric ton will have a tormenting time in the Thar/ Cholistan desert? It all seems to be about milking the army and extract $$.
> 
> Someone should write a book on this whole episode. All this is costing the IA dearly and they are forced to see alternative solutions.



It was IA that wanted the change in the middle of trials, this program has always had it's requirements changed by the user.

This isnt the DRDO's choice, first they wanted all these changes on mark 1 that added weight, then in the middle of mark 2's trials they want more weight reduction.

IA never has these type of requirements for foreign OEMs. 50 tons is an error made by the outlet. 62 tons is probably what it is.

With that said, DRDO labs are gaining extensive experience armored development, which will be used in FRCV, FICV, etc. Some of it is being used in T90, 72.


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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> It was IA that wanted the change in the middle of trials, this program has always had it's requirements changed by the user.
> 
> This isnt the DRDO's choice, first they wanted all these changes on mark 1 that added weight, then in the middle of mark 2's trials they want more weight reduction.
> 
> IA never has these type of requirements for foreign OEMs. 50 tons is an error made by the outlet. 62 tons is probably what it is.
> 
> With that said, DRDO labs are gaining extensive experience armored development, which will be used in FRCV, FICV, etc. Some of it is being used in T90, 72.



That is the problem. It is all about making money for DRDO. In doing so, they screwed the national interest bigtime. After 40 years in the making, they are still gaining extensive experience. 

Unreal!

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> That is the problem. It is all about making money for DRDO. In doing so, they screwed the national interest bigtime. After 40 years in the making, they are still gaining extensive experience.
> 
> Unreal!



Dude, what dont you get? IA keeps changing the requirement! DRDO doesnt operate on making any money. It'll exist with or without. They actively support and nurture the private sector even, who will eventually become their competitors in non-strategic R&D.

The user keeps changing the requirement, this isnt DRDO doing. For the example of the new AR. Originally IA wanted a multi caliber rifle.

Ok sure -- Basic proto made, trialing all over India.







Now, they dont want ANY of the 3 calibers that was their original requirement, killing the program. This was the problem with the Arjun, you just saw another requirement change in the middle of trials! When the original one added on weight!! These types of trials and tribulations arent asked for the Russians for examples. The even got to skip trials.



Dazzler said:


> After 40 years in the making, they are still gaining extensive experience.



No, I am following, maybe not as closely as others, but DRDO labs are gaining momentum in several fields, fast. I remember what it was like here when I join, compared to now.

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Dude, what dont you get? IA keeps changing the requirement! DRDO doesnt operate on making any money. It'll exist with or without. They actively support and nurture the private sector even, who will eventually become their competitors in non-strategic R&D.
> 
> The user keeps changing the requirement, this isnt DRDO doing. For the example of the new AR. Originally IA wanted a multi caliber rifle.
> 
> Ok sure -- Basic proto made, trialing all over India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, they dont want ANY of the 3 calibers that was their original requirement, killing the program. This was the probably with the Arjun, you just saw another requirement change in the middle of trials! When the original one added on weight!! These types of trials and tribulations arent asked by the Russians for examples. The even got to skip trials.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I am following, maybe not as closely as others, but DRDO labs are gaining momentum in several fields, fast. I remember what it was like here when I join, compared to now.



They are a burden on the nation. Their track record shows just that.


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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> They are a burden on the nation. Their track record shows just that.



Far from it. Look, I can agree on OFB, but DRDO, especially with the co-operation of the private sector is a winning combo. They've been showing results in several fields. Several of it's labs are gain momentum. Like I said, I remember what it was like when I join, dismal, not the same anymore. And another 10 years is going to be great.

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## Dazzler

Water Car Engineer said:


> Far from it. Look, I can agree on OFB, but DRDO, especially with the co-operation of the private sector is a winning combo. They've been showing results in several fields. Several of it's labs are gain momentum. Like I said, I remember what it was like when I join, dismal, not the same anymore. And another 10 years is going to be great.



That will make it 50 years right? ARe you sure Arjun will be inducted by then? Judging from the past track record, the situation is pretty dismal.

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## Water Car Engineer

Dazzler said:


> That will make it 50 years right? ARe you sure Arjun will be inducted by then? Judging from the past track record, the situation is pretty dismal.



I dont really care for the Arjun per-se. It'll get the order, but IA's true T90 replacement is the FRCV program. DRDO knows this, will partner with the private sector for the FRCV program. Arjuns weight alone wont allow it to continue on for IA's FRCV.


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## amardeep mishra

Dazzler said:


> They are a burden on the nation. Their track record shows just that.


This is the problem when one over-generalizes. In reality there are some labs that have done phenomenally well and then there are those that are mediocre. The accountability to complete a program on time was an issue back then, however this trend is gradually changing with projects sanctioned recently. I'm not saying there isn't any delay, it's just that the magnitude of those delays is shrinking.
There are certain labs most notably the radar labs(LRDE) and the missile cluster(DRDL,ASL and RCI) that have been doing some great stuff. The missile in discussion in other thread(astra) is from DRDL and believe me it's better than R77 in certain aspects. They've already tried an indigenous seeker for astra(you can use google to establish the veracity of this information). With the indigenous seeker, DRDL will be able to integrate it with any radar.
As for the delay in arjun, it's sheer mis management and lack of accountability for those delays as has been flagged in various CAG reports.

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## MimophantSlayer

Dazzler said:


> If the hull and turret re-fabrication with new materials is to be believed, the whole program just got delayed for several more years. The testing alone may take two years and subsequent changes will be validated. Simply put, whoever is in charge of the project is screwing it pretty badly. The IA is not amused and i can see why.
> 
> First, they designed an overweight behemoth and boasted all around it. Then, they thought about weight reduction?? Didnt DRDO/ CVRDE know from the word go that anything above 50 metric ton will have a tormenting time in the Thar/ Cholistan desert? It all seems to be about milking the army and extract $$.
> 
> Someone should write a book on this whole episode. All this is costing the IA dearly and they are forced to see alternative solutions.



Since the private sector is involved, the chance of Arjun Mk2 process getting expedited has imo increased.
Look at Larsen and Toubro with Samsung Techwin producing K9 SPHs.


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## Water Car Engineer

*















*

*L&T's execution of 100 K9 Vajras*

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## MimophantSlayer




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## MimophantSlayer



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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
01-December, 2018 17:52 IST 

Defence Acquisition Council also approved the procurement of Armoured Recovery Vehicles (ARVs) for the Indian Army’s Main Battle Tank Arjun. These are designed and Developed by DRDO and would be manufactured by M/s BEML. ARVs ensure efficient and speedy repair and recovery operations during combat.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Han Patriot

Dazzler said:


> That will make it 50 years right? ARe you sure Arjun will be inducted by then? Judging from the past track record, the situation is pretty dismal.


Hmm, how is it going? The IA still rejecting it and insisting on imports?


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## kmc_chacko

Dazzler said:


> That will make it 50 years right? ARe you sure Arjun will be inducted by then? Judging from the past track record, the situation is pretty dismal.



Yes it is, but Arjun MBT no more a DRDO project it as PPP project and Private companies have taken few burdens to change the corner, effects will be seen in coming years.


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## Theparadox

Han Patriot said:


> Hmm, how is it going? The IA still rejecting it and insisting on imports?


It was all started in 2012, DRDO develop first prototype in 2 years which having significant improvement over mk-1, so call it mk-1A rather mk-2. Now things are smooth with the real mk-2, soon we will see upgraded designs(eg: with new turret in production by OFB & RInfra). Army buying more ARRV hints arjun programme going well, especially for arjun mk-1.

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## Goku-kun

Theparadox said:


> It was started in 2012, DRDO develop first prototype in 2 years which having significant improvement over mk-1, so call it mk-1A rather mk-2. Now things are smooth with the real mk-2, soon we will see upgraded designs(eg: with new turret in production by OFB & RInfra). Army buying more AARV hints arjun programme going well.


no exports,even indian army is trusting more on t-90s than local stuff so hence it's 'ar-junk'.Enjoy..


MOD EDIT: Language please

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## Goku-kun

Han Patriot said:


> T-90? Tht's abit obsolete isn't it?


I mean to upgrade.They are in deal with Russia to upgrade their atleast 1000 t-90s out of total of 1400 I think.


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## Han Patriot

Goku-kun said:


> I mean to upgrade.They are in deal with Russia to upgrade their atleast 1000 t-90s out of total of 1400 I think.


After decades, they still can't make parts for T90? I mean why not upgrade themselves if they have 'arjun' tech and the miraculous TOT?

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## Water Car Engineer

The current Mark 2 is now labeled - Mark1A. The newer modeled with redesigned hull, lighter materials, etc. being produced now by Reliance and OFB will be the new MARK2.

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## Theparadox

Water Car Engineer said:


> The current Mark 2 is now labeled - Mark1A. The newer modeled with redesigned hull, lighter materials, etc. being produced now by Reliance and OFB will be the new MARK2.





Theparadox said:


> It was all started in 2012, DRDO develop first prototype in 2 years which having significant improvement over mk-1, so call it mk-1A rather mk-2. Now things are smooth with the real mk-2, soon we will see upgraded designs(eg: with new turret in production by OFB & RInfra). Army buying more ARRV hints arjun programme going well, especially for arjun mk-1.



I said that when there were no reports of mk-1A in media


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## MimophantSlayer



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## kmc_chacko

*Army accepts ‘Mark1-A’ version of Arjun tanks*

An upgraded version of the Arjun tank, having better firing and mobility, has been accepted by the Army following month-long validation trials in Rajasthan.

The trials were completed in December last and a report has followed. The Army is looking at 118 pieces of the new version. In 2010-11, the first version of the Arjun had joined the Army and 124 pieces had been ordered.

The production of the new version, dubbed as Arjun ‘Mark 1-A’, is likely to commence within this year at the existing facility at Avadi in Tamil Nadu. It has a total of 14 upgrades over the existing version. These include an auto-target tracker, automatic gear system and improvement in suspension.

Only the missile firing ability remains to be validated, which will be done once the missiles, being developed by the DRDO, are ready. The DRDO missile programme has been a major success and firing of missile from a tank is being fine-tuned.

As part of the arrangement with the Army, the DRDO has promised to set up a system to maintain the Arjun within India. It will be an annual maintenance contract with one of the PSUs such as Bharat Earth Movers Limited.

The tanks, as part of the trials, have already done some 4,000 km of run. The upgraded Arjun has a 120mm rifled gun capable of firing a full range of high explosives, laser homing anti-tank (LAHAT) missile that had a tandem warhead, which is capable of defeating all types of modern armour.

In December last year, the Ministry of Defence had informed Parliament that the ‘Arjun Mark 1-A’ was being validated at trials. This was the first official confirmation that the ‘Mark 1-A’ will be an additional version of the tank till the ‘Mark 2’ version, somewhat lighter in weight, is readied and accepted.

The development shows that the MoD is ready to keep on improving the Arjun, be addition of more power or wanting the weight to be reduced. The Army was okay with the ‘Mark 1-A’ version, but wants the next version to be lighter than its present weight of 68 tonne. Most modern European tanks are of the same weight, and tank-transporters (specialised trucks) for Arjun are available to ferry it.

The ‘Mark 2’ will have to be lighter by some 3 tonne. This may require some modification in the hull of the tank for the final contours to emerge.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/army-accepts-mark1-a-version-of-arjun-tanks/730651.html

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## Water Car Engineer

*Arjun Mark 2 as it was known is called Arjun Mark 1A and accepted by the IA.

Arjun Mark 2 being prototyped by Reliance Defence and OFB will be handed over for trials.*

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## LKJ86




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## Water Car Engineer



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## Nahid

Water Car Engineer said:


>


why it,s look like leopard 2 tank?


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## Water Car Engineer

Nahid said:


> why it,s look like leopard 2 tank?



Multiple designs were made, the German one was chosen. Two of which were pretty different from that. India used help from the Germans at the time as well.

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1091285929057087488





Arjun Mark 1A

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## Water Car Engineer




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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156910683553800193

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## Water Car Engineer

*L&T SHARANG RWS*


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## Water Car Engineer

*DRDO-TATA Kestral Platform with BMP2 Turret 






LEH Trials

*

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1220613091756363776

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## Water Car Engineer

*Turbo Charger for 1500hp engine*


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

*Unmanned turret being developed by L&T*

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## Water Car Engineer




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## amardeep mishra

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Based on my interaction with some of the CVRDE folks, they said that there's already a project going on to reduce the weight of Arjun Mk2 by at least 3.5t using HN steel and some optimization. There is one prototype getting ready that will have an all out weight less than 65t. I only wish they could somehow change the barrel to smoothbore! It is still quite cumbersome to fire HEAT rounds from Arjun and the only way to do that is via cannon launched missiles like Lahat or our own CLGM. So, in a battle, IA would have to be heavily dependent on APFSDS rounds to take out enemy tanks. Now, with second generation of indigenous APFSDS round for Arjun having a penetration capability of 550mm of RHA at 2km distance, it has only now reached a level where it can pose some serious threat to the enemy (the first generation of APFSDS round had barely 300mm RHA capability at 2km range!!). But it would have to do a hell lot more. A newer round needs to be developed that can do at least 700mm or more. This will put all Chinese developments in serious danger. 
This is also one avenue where our companies like Bharat Forge can play their part. They can effectively collaborate or even outright buy the IPR of some of the 120mm APFSDS designs from Europe-- of course only when GoI assures them of a secured order from IA.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Dazzler



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## Lord Of Gondor

Dazzler said:


>


Wrong thread.


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## MirageBlue

This should go a long way in convincing the Indian Army to induct the Arjun Mk1A and Mk2 in larger numbers. 

Arjun tank fires Laser Guided ATGM



> Laser Guided Anti Tank Guided Missile (ATGM) was successfully test fired from MBT Arjun Tank at KK Ranges, Armoured Corps Centre and School (ACC&S) Ahmednagar on 22nd Sep 2020. In these tests, the ATGM successfully defeated a target located at 3 km. Laser guided ATGMs lock and track the targets with the help of laser designation to ensure precision hit accuracy.
> 
> The missile employs a tandem HEAT warhead to defeat Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) protected armoured vehicles. It has been developed with multiple-platform launch capability and is currently undergoing technical evaluation trials from gun of MBT Arjun.
> 
> Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) Pune in association with High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) Pune, and Instruments Research & Development Establishment (IRDE) Dehradun have developed the missile.



The ATGM fired is DRDO's indigenous CLGM and uses tandem HEAT warhead to defeat ERA equipped tanks. Being multi-platform, we'll see it on T-90S and possibly even T-72M1s in the future.

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## MirageBlue

Super shot of Indian Army T-90S, Arjun and BMP-2 during an exercise


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## Signalian

MirageBlue said:


> Super shot of Indian Army T-90S, Arjun and BMP-2 during an exercise


Arjun stands out as the obvious target.

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## graphican

Signalian said:


> Arjun stands out as the obvious target.



Yea Arjun is a big guy standing at 68 Tons! VT4 is 52. Every additional tone went in Arjun speaks how incompetently engineered it is.

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## Aryan0395

graphican said:


> Yea Arjun is a big guy standing at 68 Tons! VT4 is 52. Every additional tone went in Arjun speaks how incompetently engineered it is.


By your logic even Challenger 2 and Abrams are incompetently engineered...

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## no smoking

Aryan0395 said:


> By your logic even Challenger 2 and Abrams are incompetently engineered...


Both these 2 tanks were designed to fight either in Europe where the infrastructure can support up to 70tones tanks, or the desert of North Africa and Middle East.

On the other hand, the infrastructure of India and Pakistan can hardly support 60 tones tank. So, developing a 68 tones tank is a perfect example of incompetent designer who doesn't give shit about the actual battle environment.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Arjun Mark-1 Alpha ceremonially handed over to Indian Army with the Chief Gen Naravane in presence:










Images courtesy ANI


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## Lord Of Gondor

An excellent video by Youtuber Amiet Kashyap on the features of the Arjun Mark-1 Alpha




Will be the most advanced Tanks in the Indian Army's stable.

A word of thanks to the pioneering work done by the previous two Arjun MBT(Mark-I) armoured regiments
The 43rd and the 75th
Both the glorious Regiments were conferred with the prestigious "President's Standards" by CoAS Gen Suhag, on behalf of Pres. Shri Pranab Mukherji
The 43rd Regiment:




The 75th.




(Both images courtesy PIB_India Twitter handle)
The 75th changed over from the reliable but outdated T-55, a nice image from the ceremony




(Image courtesy Twitter user VinodDX9)
And here is an oldie from Rajpath

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352909101366276097

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## kongn

Explanation of new features by designer.Excellent video.

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## MirageBlue

Aryan0395 said:


> By your logic even Challenger 2 and Abrams are incompetently engineered...



There is no logic in that post, that's the real issue.


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## Mrc

So it uses riffled main gun... Interesting... 


Cannot fire APFSDS than


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## Anik101

Mrc said:


> So it uses riffled main gun... Interesting...
> 
> 
> Cannot fire APFSDS than


It can fire APFSDS.....It uses DRDO developed APFSDS which has a sabot that rotates independently without rotating the warhead.


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## Mrc

Anik101 said:


> It can fire APFSDS.....It uses DRDO developed APFSDS which has a sabot that rotates independently without rotating the warhead.



Good luck with that

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## Yasser76

Time to close this thread now....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361878426349498372

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## PanzerKiel

Thermobaric rounds for Arjuns have recently been tested and are being inducted.

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## MirageBlue

Arjun Mk1s in the desert during an Indian Army live fire exercise

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## khanasifm

India's 'White Elephant': Why Is Indian Army Acquiring Bulky Arjun Tanks To Battle China In High-Altitude Ladakh?


The Indian Army will receive 118 homegrown Arjun MK1-A tanks as part of a mammoth procurement deal. But does this defense deal make sense in the face of an emerging need for lightweight tanks? P-8 Poseidon: Indian Navy Bets Big On Boeing’s Maritime Recon Aircraft To Puncture China’s Swelling...




eurasiantimes.com


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## Inception-06

MirageBlue said:


> Arjun Mk1s in the desert during an Indian Army live fire exercise




how many Arjun’s and the respective types have been inducted and in which unit- area are they deployed ?
I think this tank will be a interesting chalange for the Pakistan Army.


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## nikhilarya

Yasser76 said:


> Time to close this thread now....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361878426349498372


may be the person who twitted this dont know that air lifting capability of IAF is already good enough, i am surprised .... Arjun cant be airlifted! 1 word "C17" that too 11 of them, 
also i will like to add arjun was made for border with rajasthan and punjab


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## Yasser76

nikhilarya said:


> may be the person who twitted this dont know that air lifting capability of IAF is already good enough, i am surprised .... Arjun cant be airlifted! 1 word "C17" that too 11 of them,
> also i will like to add arjun was made for border with rajasthan and punjab



Can the C-17 lift a Arjun? Has it even been tested?


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## nikhilarya

Yasser76 said:


> Can the C-17 lift a Arjun? Has it even been tested?


sir i am surprised, you dont know airlift capability of C17, and pleas remember arjun tank was never made for high altitude warfare, it was made for deserts of rajasthan (india pak international border )


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## Yasser76

nikhilarya said:


> sir i am surprised, you dont know airlift capability of C17, and pleas remember arjun tank was never made for high altitude warfare, it was made for deserts of rajasthan (india pak international border )



Why are you surprised? It's not just a matter of weight, its aircraft structure, centre of gravity and dimensions that are also taken into account and may not be suitable for C-17 carriage. So no need to be "surprised".

Also IAF has only 10 C-17s, assume only 6-7 available, then you can move two troops of tanks in one go. 

This is not war winning capabilities but rather just a good PR stunt.

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## Bilal9

Yasser76 said:


> Can the C-17 lift a Arjun? Has it even been tested?



Forget C-17, they should worry about bridges and culverts.

" A key concern that has hounded the Arjun tank project is the overall weight of the vehicle. At a whopping 68 tonnes, the Arjun Mk-1A is no spring chicken, a worry for the Army which needs to deploy the tank over existing culverts and bridges, many of which were not designed to carry their weight. And with the new modifications sought by the Army, the MK-1A is even heavier than the original variant. "









Watch: Arjun Mk-1A, One Of World's Most Advanced Tanks, In Action


The Defence Acquisition Committee of the Defence Ministry Tuesday granted an 'Acceptance of Necessity', paving the way for the Army to acquire 118 Arjun Mk-1A tanks in a deal worth Rs 8,400 crore. The final step before an order is placed is a meeting of the Cabinet Committee of Security which is...




www.ndtv.com





But the day for tanks like Arjun may be numbered. Tanks are obsolete in modern warfare as amply demonstrated in recent conflicts.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Not sure if shared but a good addition to the sticky thread




7500 Km of testing is just insane(~200 Hrs of Engine run time)
For reference the V-92S2 powering the Bhishma has a *total *life of 650 Hrs


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## DeusExAstra

Hello! Is there any information about the full combat weight of Arjun and Arjun Mk2? I saw few statements, like 60 tons, 62 tons, 65 tons and 70 (?!) tons?


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## Two banks of the River

Zorawar design not based on K9. In-house design.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580220293779685376


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## Two banks of the River

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580204184154279936
This was recently tested by Army.

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## Two banks of the River

Two banks of the River said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580204184154279936
> This was recently tested by Army.









The relative size in comparison to Gypsy in background. 

The system is named Titan. Can be armed with various types of payload.



Two banks of the River said:


> The relative size in comparison to Gypsy in background.
> 
> The system is named Titan. Can be armed with various types of payload.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541338062801833984 
This is another one which was tested. Its slightly bigger. Compare the size from the T90 following it.

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