# Pakistan to acquire six submarines from China



## ironman

*New-gen submarines: Pakistan steals a march on India ​*
Ajay Banerjee/TNS
New Delhi, January 20

Even as India has announced its intent to have new generation diesel-electric submarines, Pakistan has gone ahead and signed a deal with long-standing ally China to produce submarines with the same technology that India wants.

*The Pakistan Navy and China&#8217;s Ship Building Corporation signed a deal that got the seal of finality during the visit of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to Pakistan last December.* Indian security agencies in know of the matter have cautioned the government that this could tilt the balance in favour of the Pakistan Navy in the Arabian Sea.

India is looking to spend Rs 50,000 crore to acquire six new diesel-electric submarines that will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology to boost operational capabilities. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every couple of days for oxygen to recharge their batteries. A submarine using AIP technology can stay submerged for 12-15 days at a stretch, thus increasing its capacity to hunt down enemy warships without being detected. Nuclear powered submarines can stay underwater for even longer periods.

*Under the latest agreement, China will co-produce six AIP technology submarines with Pakistan.* Currently, the neighbouring navy has only one submarine -- PNS Hamza. Pakistan is also looking at an AIP system produced by a French or German maker to fit on to the Chinese made hull of the vessel, said an official.

What is worrying for India is the known pace of Chinese construction. China could well provide three-four new generation AIP technology submarines to the neigbouring country within two years. The Chinese had supplied four frigates to the Pakistan Navy in 18 months flat! The two nations have also co-produced the single-engine J-17 fighter that was inducted into the Pakistan Air Force last summer.

For India, it could take upto five years to induct its first such submarine, as it will have to go through the process of trying out offers from various global bidders before ordering the vessels.

The Indian Navy has a bigger fleet in terms of number but it is dwindling and will be down to eight conventional diesel-electric vessels by 2015. By then, the first of the six under-construction Scorpene submarines will join the fleet followed by five more till 2018. The AIP technology vessels will follow later. Going by estimates, Pakistan would complete the induction of its fleet of AIP technology vessels by the time India starts off with its line of such submarines.

However, India will maintain its edge over Pakistan in case of nuclear-powered submarines. It hopes to induct the Akula-II Class attack submarine K-152 Nerpa on a 10-year lease from Russia in the next few weeks while the first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant is expected to be inducted by early-2012.

Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma has already declared that nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant would be on &#8216;deterrent patrol&#8217; to provide the ability of a retaliatory &#8216;second strike&#8217; if the country faces a nuclear attack.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation



> What Worries India
> 
> * The Chinese are known for their pace of construction and could provide three-four new generation submarines to Pakistan within two years.
> * It could take India upto five years to induct the first of its diesel-electric submarine.
> * The Indian Navy fleet is dwindling and will be down to eight conventional diesel-electric vessels by 2015.


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## Dalai Lama

India has the option of leasing more submarines from Russia / France until the other submarines are inducted.


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## notorious_eagle

If this is confirmed, than this is GREAT NEWS. Pakistan's Naval Arm needs a serious overhaul to counter the growing might of the Indian Navy, and in my opinion the submarine arm is perfect to engage India's fleet out in the open seas. The PAF and PA are going through the proper upgrades to counter India, that is why this upgrade was an absolute essential for PN to counter the much superior IN.



TheDeletedUser said:


> India has the option of leasing more submarines from Russia / France until the other submarines are inducted.



I sincerely doubt IN would do that, the addition of these subs don't tilt the balance of power. The addition of these subs would certainly make the task of IN's objective to blockade Karachi harder, but by no means is PN in a position to engage the IN in the open seas.

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## razgriz19

i dont really think its an accurate news....
i kno PN need subs more than ever, but 6!?
4 max, BUT IF they are going for 6 then its stupid!
PN got only 1200km coast line to protect.


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## farhan_9909

6 and co produce.

song class...?

great news


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## Mani2020

There is no news on Janes neither reported by any Pakistani media source so i doubt the authenticity of this news,this article may be written just to put pressure on GOP or IN to increase the pace of induction


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## flameboard

Pakistan should get a Fuel Cell powered submarine, even the US can't track them, Germany uses that technology on it's U-212s which is doesn't sell.

Perhaps the Swedish HMS Gotland


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## farhan_9909

the news is wrong.it is nt reported in any pak media


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## MZUBAIR

Just a roumour so far


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## fatman17

ironman said:


> *New-gen submarines: Pakistan steals a march on India ​*
> Ajay Banerjee/TNS
> New Delhi, January 20
> 
> Even as India has announced its intent to have new generation diesel-electric submarines, Pakistan has gone ahead and signed a deal with long-standing ally China to produce submarines with the same technology that India wants.
> 
> *The Pakistan Navy and Chinas Ship Building Corporation signed a deal that got the seal of finality during the visit of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to Pakistan last December.* Indian security agencies in know of the matter have cautioned the government that this could tilt the balance in favour of the Pakistan Navy in the Arabian Sea.
> 
> India is looking to spend Rs 50,000 crore to acquire six new diesel-electric submarines that will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology to boost operational capabilities. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every couple of days for oxygen to recharge their batteries. A submarine using AIP technology can stay submerged for 12-15 days at a stretch, thus increasing its capacity to hunt down enemy warships without being detected. Nuclear powered submarines can stay underwater for even longer periods.
> 
> *Under the latest agreement, China will co-produce six AIP technology submarines with Pakistan.* Currently, the neighbouring navy has only one submarine -- PNS Hamza. Pakistan is also looking at an AIP system produced by a French or German maker to fit on to the Chinese made hull of the vessel, said an official.
> 
> What is worrying for India is the known pace of Chinese construction. China could well provide three-four new generation AIP technology submarines to the neigbouring country within two years. The Chinese had supplied four frigates to the Pakistan Navy in 18 months flat! The two nations have also co-produced the single-engine J-17 fighter that was inducted into the Pakistan Air Force last summer.
> 
> For India, it could take upto five years to induct its first such submarine, as it will have to go through the process of trying out offers from various global bidders before ordering the vessels.
> 
> The Indian Navy has a bigger fleet in terms of number but it is dwindling and will be down to eight conventional diesel-electric vessels by 2015. By then, the first of the six under-construction Scorpene submarines will join the fleet followed by five more till 2018. The AIP technology vessels will follow later. Going by estimates, Pakistan would complete the induction of its fleet of AIP technology vessels by the time India starts off with its line of such submarines.
> 
> However, India will maintain its edge over Pakistan in case of nuclear-powered submarines. It hopes to induct the Akula-II Class attack submarine K-152 Nerpa on a 10-year lease from Russia in the next few weeks while the first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant is expected to be inducted by early-2012.
> 
> Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma has already declared that nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant would be on deterrent patrol to provide the ability of a retaliatory second strike if the country faces a nuclear attack.
> 
> The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation



there is NO deal as yet - only talks have started - this is merely indian propoganda to justify their own arms buildup!!!

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> there is NO deal as yet - only talks have started - this is merely indian propoganda to justify their own arms buildup!!!




quote from jane's!
"Senior Pakistani government officials have said the two countries are considering further naval contracts including deals for frigates that are larger than the F-22Ps and possibly China's first foreign sale of a submarine."

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## ANG

Hi, I understand that the PN is in talks with China on larger frigates, potentially the Type 54A, and conventional submarines. However, we have not heard much else, and only time will tell what will happen. But on a personal level, I do not believe this article as it just does not seem credible. Take care.


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## Haseebullah

First,Pakistan navy will complete the transfer of Type 022(Huobei),as it is expected,then the Type 054A,then there is a chance of a sub.

We wont be seeing 'em on the karachi port soon.


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## cybertron

even if wrong v need such news to keep GOI on its toes.
even dwindling is a soft word to show the situation of our submarine fleet.

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## truthseeker2010

What about the other two, is the work started on them as well?


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## SEAL

razgriz19 said:


> i dont really think its an accurate news....
> i kno PN need subs more than ever, but 6!?
> 4 max, BUT IF they are going for 6 then its stupid!
> PN got only 1200km coast line to protect.



Two Agosta-70s be retire karni hain.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

PN wants 7 subs not 6...
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...akistan/16-navy+to+buy+seven+submarines-hs-04

In talks with china and france...........maybe theyd buy half of em from china and half frm france..........while 4 more Type 54 ships will sweeten te deal.


Thts 3+2+7 submarines........ 10 with MESMA AIP.



> *The Agosta 90B, also known as the Khalid-class, is a modernised design built for the Pakistan Navy. Various modifications give lower acoustic signature, lower diving depth, improved battery range and performance. Greater automation also allows the crew to be reduced from 54 to 36. The submarine can be armed with up to 16 torpedoes and SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles.[2] The SM39 was test-fired from a Khalid-class submarine in 2001.[3]*
> All of the Pakistani SSKs have been equipped with AshMs which can be fired while submerged. The three Khalid class boats are capable of firing Exocet AshM, while the older Agostas and Daphnes have been equipped with US Harpoon AshMs. PNS/M Hamza (third Agosta-90B) is equipped with the MESMA Air Independent Propulsion system, PNS/M Khalid and PNS/M Saad will be upgraded with the same MESMA AIP system in the near future. The Pakistan Navy also plans to integrate the Boeing Harpoon Block II on to its Agosta-90Bs; and currently the Agosta-90Bs are capable of firing Blackshark torpedoes.


Agosta 70s are also being upgraded with millions of $$$.

P.S=Even if we buy chinese subs we can further upgrade n modify em frm the knowledge we gained by building customised/upgraded agosta 90Bs in the past.

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## farhan_9909

cant we build our own.just buy the AIP from anyother state,

instead of 7.

we should invest 3 subs money into R&D of developing our own sub and 4 later manufacture our own

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## owais.usmani

fatman17 said:


> there is NO deal as yet - only talks have started - this is merely indian propoganda to justify their own arms buildup!!!



Absolutely. Had this news been true, this thread would have been opened by a Pakistani member, not an Indian.

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## Penguin

> Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China
> 
> By Farhan Bokhari
> 11 June 2010
> 
> China's vice-president, Zheng Dejiang, met with civil and military leaders in Pakistan on 9-10 June in a visit surrounded by reports of a major new defence deal under discussion that would see Pakistan _buying at least three _Chinese submarines.
> 
> Speaking to Jane's on 9 June, a senior Pakistani government official said the Pakistan Navy began discussions with "the Chinese authorities last month for an eventual submarine deal" for _up to three or four boats_, but _declined to specify the types or terms _under discussion.
> 
> China has a long history of helping Pakistan overcome shortages of key military hardware, notably the hardware it was denied by the Western world following sanctions imposed from 1990 in response to Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme.
> 
> The Pakistani government official who spoke to Jane's on 9 June said that it was vital for the navy to acquire more submarines to offset "the pressure we will definitely come under" due to the rapid expansion of India's naval capability. "Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance once again," he said.
> 
> Although neither China nor Pakistan have ever publicly revealed the terms of their past financial arrangements, defence analysts say that China continues to offer long-term loans to Pakistan on concessional terms, allowing the country to continue with its military hardware purchases.


Non-subscriber extract from JDW
Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China

"at least three" (=3+)
"up to three or four" (worst case = 2-3 or best case= 3-4)

Sounds to me much like a buy 3 from China + build 1 locally in Pakistan (much as the F22P deal)

Add to this 3 Agosta90B with AIP and you have 7.

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## Mani2020

I m not in favor of purchasing subs from China ,Purchasing more frigates form China is fine but in case of submarine there are better options available ,Chinese subs quality is not upto the par when we compare them to the Germany ones or French (even if they cost bit much) at most if PN have to buy these from China then atleast a combination from China and France/Germany would be better option


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## applesauce

Mani2020 said:


> I m not in favor of purchasing subs from China ,Purchasing more frigates form China is fine but in case of submarine there are better options available ,Chinese subs quality is not upto the par when we compare them to the Germany ones or French (even if they cost bit much) at most if PN have to buy these from China then atleast a combination from China and France/Germany would be better option



i agree, german subs are very fine however they costs a boat load(haha no pun intended), i think what is worth consideration though is that, will Germany give tot and what level of tot, also the costs is of great concern due to pakistan's financial situation. what pakistan has been doing and must continue to do until the economy improves(if ever) is to get something cheap but "good enough" and many times in the past the Chinese items fit that bill i mean who else can provide billions of loans with no strings and sanction proof. perhaps pakistan can stend some money buying European for the high end and buy several chinese for the cheaper lower end or as the article suggests perhaps a chinese built hull with western systems.

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## ANG

Hi, Pakistan does not have the money to purchase western subs, nor does it have the diplomatic leverage or standing to get these western boats. They can only purchase Chinese subs via soft loans or grants from China; there is no other option. I personally think a Chinese sub, with a western AIP and western systems would be just as good. Take care.


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## Donatello

ironman said:


> *New-gen submarines: Pakistan steals a march on India ​*
> Ajay Banerjee/TNS
> New Delhi, January 20
> 
> Even as India has announced its intent to have new generation diesel-electric submarines, Pakistan has gone ahead and signed a deal with long-standing ally China to produce submarines with the same technology that India wants.
> 
> *The Pakistan Navy and Chinas Ship Building Corporation signed a deal that got the seal of finality during the visit of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to Pakistan last December.* Indian security agencies in know of the matter have cautioned the government that this could tilt the balance in favour of the Pakistan Navy in the Arabian Sea.
> 
> India is looking to spend Rs 50,000 crore to acquire six new diesel-electric submarines that will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology to boost operational capabilities. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every couple of days for oxygen to recharge their batteries. A submarine using AIP technology can stay submerged for 12-15 days at a stretch, thus increasing its capacity to hunt down enemy warships without being detected. Nuclear powered submarines can stay underwater for even longer periods.
> 
> *Under the latest agreement, China will co-produce six AIP technology submarines with Pakistan.* *Currently, the neighbouring navy has only one submarine -- PNS Hamza.* Pakistan is also looking at an AIP system produced by a French or German maker to fit on to the Chinese made hull of the vessel, said an official.
> 
> What is worrying for India is the known pace of Chinese construction. China could well provide three-four new generation AIP technology submarines to the neigbouring country within two years. The Chinese had supplied four frigates to the Pakistan Navy in 18 months flat! The two nations have also co-produced the single-engine J-17 fighter that was inducted into the Pakistan Air Force last summer.
> 
> For India, it could take upto five years to induct its first such submarine, as it will have to go through the process of trying out offers from various global bidders before ordering the vessels.
> 
> The Indian Navy has a bigger fleet in terms of number but it is dwindling and will be down to eight conventional diesel-electric vessels by 2015. By then, the first of the six under-construction Scorpene submarines will join the fleet followed by five more till 2018. The AIP technology vessels will follow later. Going by estimates, Pakistan would complete the induction of its fleet of AIP technology vessels by the time India starts off with its line of such submarines.
> 
> However, India will maintain its edge over Pakistan in case of nuclear-powered submarines. It hopes to induct the Akula-II Class attack submarine K-152 Nerpa on a 10-year lease from Russia in the next few weeks while the first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant is expected to be inducted by early-2012.
> 
> Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma has already declared that nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant would be on deterrent patrol to provide the ability of a retaliatory second strike if the country faces a nuclear attack.
> 
> The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation





Dear sir,

like your brethren and fellow government men, stop spreading false and in-accurate news.

Your enemy has not 1 but 5 active Subs, with 3 being AIP equipped or in the last phases of being retrofitted.


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## alimobin memon

who says chinese subs aren't good, if they weren't good chinese had bought western subs for their sea space.


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## Mani2020

applesauce said:


> i agree, german subs are very fine however they costs a boat load(haha no pun intended), i think what is worth consideration though is that, will Germany give tot and what level of tot, also the costs is of great concern due to pakistan's financial situation. what pakistan has been doing and must continue to do until the economy improves(if ever) is to get something cheap but "good enough" and many times in the past the Chinese items fit that bill i mean who else can provide billions of loans with no strings and sanction proof. perhaps pakistan can stend some money buying European for the high end and buy several chinese for the cheaper lower end or as the article suggests perhaps a chinese built hull with western systems.



There was no hard feeling from my side brother ,i know how China helped us and we will keep purchasing defence equipment form China but my point was Chinese Frigates,aircrafts and tanks etc are the things that can compete with western counterparts but when it comes to Subs they don't have mastered it yet although there are many local sub's serving PLAN but still there quality is bit shaky as already discussed with many Chinese members in another thread .

So my point is even if German/French subs are costly you can buy 3 instead of 4 or 4 instead of 5 atleast it assures you the quality . we can buy it later form China when we need till then let them master in this field


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## ANG

Hi, I would not discount Chinese subs that quickly. Kindly please recall that China is now building stealth jet fighters. They have also bought Russian Kilo class subs in the past, and have probably pulled them apart to learn.

Moreover, if you look at the link below, their conventional subs have gone though quite a few interations in the past few years, and their technology is starting to mature and develop. 

Chinese Navy

A Chinese sub with western AIP, western navigation system (SUBTICs in the Agosta-90B), and Western attack systems would be fine for the PN's requirements. In addition, the PN would find it much easier and possible to modify these Chinese subs to launch Babur based LACMs. I highly doubt Germany would allow the PN to modify the U214 to launch a nuclear tipped LACM. Well my personal opinion at least... Take care.


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## Black Knight

Even as India has announced its intent to have new generation diesel-electric submarines, Pakistan has gone ahead and signed a deal with long-standing ally China to produce submarines with the same technology that India wants.
The Pakistan Navy and Chinas Ship Building Corporation signed a deal that got the seal of finality during the visit of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to Pakistan last December. Indian security agencies in know of the matter have cautioned the government that this could tilt the balance in favour of the Pakistan Navy in the Arabian Sea.

India is looking to spend Rs 50,000 crore to acquire six new diesel-electric submarines that will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology to boost operational capabilities. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every couple of days for oxygen to recharge their batteries. A submarine using AIP technology can stay submerged for 12-15 days at a stretch, thus increasing its capacity to hunt down enemy warships without being detected. Nuclear powered submarines can stay underwater for even longer periods.

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## ANG

Hi, there is already a thread existing on this topic. Take care.

NewGen submarines: Pakistan Signs deal with China to co-produce six subs with AIP


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## Black Knight

ok sorry brother i did not know that


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## Super Falcon

the answer is big NO our naval guys are sleeping like no other human being have slept indian navy getting scorpene russian grany subs and india own arihant than now these sic new rs 50 crore project what the hell is upto our navy is


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## ANG

Hi, what it comes down to is paisa, or lack of it for the PN and Pakistan in general. Pakistan cannot afford Western subs, nor does she have the diplomatic clout to seal such a deal. It should turn to China and get subs from there. Take care.


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## sparklingway

Might be under consideration and awaiting final approval but earlier claims that this was Indian propaganda to justify their arms buildup stand negated to some extent.

*Pakistan to acquire six submarines from China 
*​MUSHTAQ GHUMMAN

ISLAMABAD (March 09, 2011) : Pakistan has decided to acquire six Air Independent Propulsion conventional submarines from China to be fully capable to operate in a multi-threat environment under tropical conditions and launching torpedoes and missiles, reveal official documents exclusively available with Business Recorder.

For this purpose, a protocol for joint development and co-production of conventional AIP fitted submarines by Pakistan Navy (PN) and China Shipbuilding and Offshore Corporation Limited (SCOC) will be signed shortly after the approval by the federal cabinet. AIP is a term that encompasses technologies which allow a submarine to operate without the need to surface or use a snorkel to access atmospheric oxygen.

The term usually excludes the use of nuclear power, and describes augmenting or replacing the diesel-electric propulsion system of non-nuclear vessels. The United States Navy uses the hull classification symbol "SSP" to designate boats powered by AIP, while retaining "SS" for classic diesel-electric attack submarines. According to documents, Pakistan Navy is facing a critical imbalance in terms of submarines and ships vis-à-vis emerged threats.

This capability gap is widening exponentially with the passage of time. Keeping in view the PN's requirements of acquiring submarines, the issue was included in the talking points of the President Asif Ali Zardari's visit to China in 2009 and subsequently, it was discussed during the Chinese Prime Minister's visit to Pakistan in December 2010. The matter has been deliberated upon at the highest level at various fora, the documents add.

Ministry of Defence explains that in order to capitalise upon this opportunity, NHQ has pursued the acquisition of submarines with the concerned Chinese authorities. As a result, the administrator for State China has assured his firm support for the submarine project.

Technical negotiations will now start with China Shipbuilding and Offshore Corporation Limited (CSOC) on the proposed acquisition of conventional submarines Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) in order to finalise the draft protocol for further processing with the government.

NHQ has now forwarded a mutually agreed draft protocol to be signed between PN and CSOC as a first step towards joint development of conventional submarines ie AIP on JF 17 Thunder aircraft model. The proposed commercial deal between the two countries on conventional submarines, a copy of which is available with this scribe, is as follows: PN intends to acquire conventional AIP fixed submarines from CSOC as per agreed speculations, through joint development and co-production.

Under this protocol, submarines will be constructed at CSOC's yard and in Pakistan as per agreed arrangements. Co-development and production shall include joint development, training of PN/ Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) personnel, up-gradation of PN's yard and other related aspects including maintenance ie ILS as per respective responsibilities of the parties as defined in the protocol.

The parties have agreed to the following: (i) to invest jointly to develop one new type of conventional submarines with AIP. And the methodology of investment will be discussed when the project becomes reality; (2) CSOC shall appoint one institute to design conventional AIP submarines as per agreement by both sides; (3) for the purpose of establishing agreed technical requirements/ joint development, the parties shall initially work on the base line technical requirements; (4) during joint development, CSOC shall endeavour to incorporate PN requirement to establish final technical specifications for the conventional AIP submarines to be co-produced. Final design shall be certified by CSOC to fulfil pre-requisite as per Chinese military/ Navel standards for conventional AIP submarines; (5) CSOC shall ensure that these submarines shall be fully capable to operate in multi-threat environment under tropical conditions and capable of launching of torpedoes and missiles of Chinese origin; (6) CSOC shall completely construct four submarines at its yard in China; (7) remaining two submarines shall be constructed at PN yard in Pakistan as per the Chinese standards after up-gradation of PN yard by CSOC.

For this, Kit of Material(KoM) of these submarines shall be provided by CSOC; (8) CSOC shall provide lead yard services for completion and outfitting of these submarines at the PN yard in Pakistan;(9) CSOC shall carry out and be responsible for all tests and trials of all KoM, machinery and systems in harbour and at sea.

PN shall provide all necessary facilities and arrangements for harbour and sea trials in Pakistan; (10) CSOC shall be responsible for performance of all submarines to be built in Pakistan, their equipment, machinery and systems in trials in harbour and at sea; (11) CSOC shall also provide technical know-how for construction of conventional AIP submarines along with associated support and lead yard services;(12) CSOC shall provide materials and support services for construction and outfitting and trials of all submarines and after sales/ construction support for at least 30 years; (13) CSOC, for the purpose of up-gradation of maintenance facilities and after sales support, shall provide a comprehensive ILS package for the co-developed/ co-produced conventional AIP submarines; (15) CSOC, for the obligation in the agreement, shall submit a technical proposal, covering all elements of joint development and co-production including operational training and ILS, for the purpose of contract formulation as soon as possible; (16) CSOC, for the obligations listed above, shall submit a commercial proposal, covering all budgetary estimates/ costing of joint development and co-production and financial support proposal for the purpose of contract formulation as soon as possible; (17) PN shall facilitate visits of CSOC's team for site survey/ maintenance facilities to formulate technical and financial proposal by CSOC;(18) PN agrees to respect all the CSOC's reasonable instructions/advises related to building, outfitting, test, trials, upgrading and its yard and quality control; and (19) PN shall where possible provide all agreed information to assist CSOC in its obligations and pay CSOC for all the items and services as per the financial terms to be agreed during formal contract formulation.

The proposed commercial agreement further states "whereas, after both parties get approval from respective governments, CSOC will agree to undertake the work to be performed in order to fulfil the purchaser's requirement on the modalities of this protocol set herein, both parties therefore agree to endeavour to finalise contract for joint development and co-production of conventional AIP submarines as soon as possible. Parties also agree to revise the protocol with mutual negotiations, in case any party has new requirement". The proposal had been submitted to the Prime Minister, Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani who directed the concerned Ministry to place the matter before the cabinet as required under Rules 16(1) (h) of the Rules of Business, 1973.

Top Stories - Agencies not violating human rights, Prime Minister tells National Assembly

*Emerging threat: Cabinet to consider Chinese subs*​By Rauf Klasra
Published: March 9, 2011

ISLAMABAD:The Ministry of Defence has asked the federal cabinet, which meets today (Wednesday), to approve purchase of conventional Chinese submarines on grounds of &#8220;emerging threats&#8221; that the country faces. It will also pave the way for the joint development of conventional submarines, officials have said.
The defence ministry has informed members of the cabinet that the Pakistan Navy is facing a critical force imbalance in terms of submarines and ships. The capability gap is widening exponentially with the passage of time, the navy adds. Keeping in view such urgent naval requirements, the issue was also part of the talking points for President Zardari during his visit to China in 2009 and subsequently the matter was also discussed during the Chinese prime minister&#8217;s visit to Pakistan in 2010.
The cabinet has been also been told that Naval Headquarters had pursued the matter of acquisition of submarines with the concerned Chinese authorities. A mutually agreed draft protocol is to be signed between the Pakistan Navy and the relevant Chinese department as a first step towards joint development of conventional submarines.
Published in The Express Tribune, March 9th, 2011.

Emerging threat: Cabinet to consider Chinese subs &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## SAUD-404

Thats great news, Finally some progress but which subs are we buying from china and how long will these six subs will become part of PN fleet??????????????


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## usman7881

what about German's u-214


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## farhan_9909

great news

the yuan class will be the best for us


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## farhan_9909

usman7881 said:


> what about German's u-214


 
leave them.

they are expensive and will delay our sub program even more

out of these six we can manufacture half of them locally.so we gain experiance also.

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## Last Hope

_Assalam u alaikum._


Wasnt the modernisation of the earlier fleet of Augosta 90B the initial aim?
I guess we are gonna take plans after the modernisation of the earlier fleet?
What about the U-214?


Isint this a propaganda?
Nothing on any other website.
If its true, then I guess the building wont start until two years.


Regards.


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## usman7881

are these submarines better than Indians scorpions and Pakistani Augusta


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## Areesh

The news is credible and looks like the work on awaited chinese subs is about to start. At last a great news coming from Pakistan navy after some time.

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## farhan_9909

usman7881 said:


> are these submarines better than Indians scorpions and Pakistani Augusta


 
displacement wise yuan class are better then scorpian and U 214.


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## bc040400065

farhan_9909 said:


> displacement wise yuan class are better then scorpian and U 214.


 
If you read it carefully. It clearly states that a sub joint development is what PN is looking for with same terms as in the case of JFT program. So i think the article is pointing towards a specialize development according to the PN requirements and may be based on Chinese subs but not exactly Yuan or songs class.



> *NHQ has now forwarded a mutually agreed draft protocol to be signed between PN and CSOC as a first step towards joint development of conventional submarines ie AIP on JF 17 Thunder aircraft model. The proposed commercial deal between the two countries on conventional submarines, a copy of which is available with this scribe, is as follows: PN intends to acquire conventional AIP fixed submarines from CSOC as per agreed speculations, through joint development and co-production.*

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## farhan_9909

bc040400065 said:


> If you read it carefully. It clearly states that a sub joint development is what PN is looking for with same terms as in the case of JFT program. So i think the article is pointing towards a specialize development according to the PN requirements and may be based on Chinese subs but not exactly Yuan or songs class.


 
wohoo

this is even more better.


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

excellent move my pakistan, if report is true. pakistan navy doesnt need to be a "blue water" navy to deter india. Submarines r best defence against aircraft carriers.

i think pakistan navy is pretty much equivalent to indian navy in terms of submarine warfare.


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## blackops

GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> excellent move my pakistan, if report is true. pakistan navy doesnt need to be a "blue water" navy to deter india. Submarines r best defence against aircraft carriers.
> 
> i think pakistan navy is pretty much equivalent to indian navy in terms of submarine warfare.


 
What about our arihant when they will come it will shift the balance again

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## tallboy123

blackops said:


> What about our arihant when they will come it will shift the balance again


 
wait another 8 months


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

blackops said:


> What about our arihant when they will come it will shift the balance again


 
of course bro. 

nuclear subarines have more endurance as compared to normal submarines. they can remain under water till they have shortage of food on board. normal submarines (even AIP ones) have to come up on surface. 

however one big advantage diesel submarine has over nuclear is that it is much more quieter wen running on batteries. so it is comparitively difficlut to detect on sonar. 

pakistan doesnt require nuclear submarines to counter india. it needs more AIP submarines (which it is already purchasing).

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## truthseeker2010

Why is there a need a develop a new type of submarine when the models are already in service with china like the yuan class? 
Isn't it will be time consuming and more costly.


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## TaimiKhan

truthseeker2010 said:


> Why is there a need a develop a new type of submarine when the models are already in service with china like the yuan class?
> Isn't it will be time consuming and more costly.


 
Since Pakistan needs its own specifications to be incorporated, thus it would not be the exact model the Chinese are fielding, but it would be based on it. So, in other words call it a new variant of some Chinese model. 

Yeah, it may be time consuming and costly, but it will yield very positive results at the end and for any future acquisitions as we can built with Chinese help more efficient subs for ourselves and can have them in numbers to counter the adversary who may be enjoying superiority in the surface vessel department.

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## TaimiKhan

truthseeker2010 said:


> Why is there a need a develop a new type of submarine when the models are already in service with china like the yuan class?
> Isn't it will be time consuming and more costly.


 
Since Pakistan needs its own specifications to be incorporated, thus it would not be the exact model the Chinese are fielding, but it would be based on it. So, in other words call it a new variant of some Chinese model. 

Yeah, it may be time consuming and costly, but it will yield very positive results at the end and for any future acquisitions as we can built with Chinese help more efficient subs for ourselves and can have them in numbers to counter the adversary who may be enjoying superiority in the surface vessel department.

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## The Vicious Kind

I dont understand ,is pakistan buying chinese subs and then later own assembling in pk or is pakistan Jointly developing subs with china?.


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## truthseeker2010

the latter, jointly developing with china like JF-17 and then building 2 out of 6 here in pakistan.


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## fatman17

read Adm N/Bashir's interview in this section - he states that PN is interested in chinese boats but it is too early to make any comments on the number required and the requirements.

find below:

"In the meantime, the PN's most pressing requirement is the replacement of two French-supplied Agosta 70 submarines operated since the 1970s. While Adm Bashir described the PN's fleet of submarines as the "backbone of our navy", he also admitted that "over a period of time our submarine strength has dwindled and today we have five submarines, which is far short of our requirement". 

The navy has attempted to mitigate this capability gap with the purchase of three Agosta 90B submarines from France. However, Islamabad has stalled the purchase of further submarines, largely due to the country's economic constraints. 

According to Adm Bashir, the PN had short-listed the Type 214 submarine, manufactured by Germany's Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft, as the platform of choice, but a contract has not yet been signed as "unfortunately the price tag is too high for us". 

However, he did say that the PN is evaluating all possible options for the acquisition of submarines, including Chinese-manufactured options. "The exact details of the boats are not yet decided and so it is difficult for me to dwell on the issue at this stage," he said."

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## truthseeker2010

TaimiKhan said:


> Since Pakistan needs its own specifications to be incorporated, thus it would not be the exact model the Chinese are fielding, but it would be based on it. So, in other words call it a new variant of some Chinese model.
> 
> Yeah, it may be time consuming and costly, but it will yield very positive results at the end and for any future acquisitions as we can built with Chinese help more efficient subs for ourselves and can have them in numbers to counter the adversary who may be enjoying superiority in the surface vessel department.


 
Sir any idea about the submarine would it be bigger than agostas, firepower, displacement etc...


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## usman7881

do Pakistan develop cruse missile for Pakistan navy ?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

gr8 move if truly the project is JV then we have not only Chinese missiles on the table but also babur and Pakistani missiles too and again like innovation in jf17 these subs can become a pain for enemy


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## tallboy123

So When will the deal be signed..and how much would it cost...???
And which submarines is PN going to retire...??
and will this submarine replace those retired once..?


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## usman7881

babur is surface to air missile and not for navy if i am right


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## tallboy123

farhan_9909 said:


> displacement wise yuan class are better then scorpian and U 214.



Only displacement doesn't not matter mate,u should also take sensors,armaments.etc..
can u put wat sensors and armaments does yuan submarine carry...


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## tallboy123

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> gr8 move if truly the project is JV then we have not only Chinese missiles on the table but also babur and Pakistani missiles too and again like innovation in jf17 these subs can become a pain for enemy


as far as i know babur is surface to surface....
Have pakistan tested submarine launched babur??


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## TaimiKhan

truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir any idea about the submarine would it be bigger than agostas, firepower, displacement etc...


 
Yeah, i believe so that the Chinese option would be bigger then the current Agostas, in tonnage as well as size also, and it may hold more fire power compared to the ones we have currently. 

And hopefully, they would be getting the capability to launch the Babur cruise missiles too, thus to accommodate that and having torpedoes and AShMs and then cruise missiles, the ship's displacement and tonnage would be larger then Agostas.

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------




truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir any idea about the submarine would it be bigger than agostas, firepower, displacement etc...


 
Yeah, i believe so that the Chinese option would be bigger then the current Agostas, in tonnage as well as size also, and it may hold more fire power compared to the ones we have currently. 

And hopefully, they would be getting the capability to launch the Babur cruise missiles too, thus to accommodate that and having torpedoes and AShMs and then cruise missiles, the ship's displacement and tonnage would be larger then Agostas.

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## Indus Falcon

truthseeker2010 said:


> Why is there a need a develop a new type of submarine when the models are already in service with china like the yuan class?
> Isn't it will be time consuming and more costly.


 
From what I understand, it won't be 100% new type but more of fine tuning and customization.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Well we can also incoporate weapons of our choice and indigenous systems to these boats!
Heck even use the experience gained frm building the agostas.

P.S=Originally PN wanted 7 subs... 3-chinese rest european..... now 6? Maybe lease a nuclear boat? we had heard talk abt tht didnt we?


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## nomi007

but please cabinet also approves 1 billion $ for German u-214 submarines


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## usman7881

do Pakistan has tested submarine launch cruse missile


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## Super Falcon

i think it will be totally new submarine more capable than any submarine in chinese inventory and new desgin too


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## Indus Falcon

usman7881 said:


> babur is surface to air missile and not for navy if i am right


 
There was a sub launched, as well as a naval version under development. With the naval version closer to induction than the sub one. Will try and get an update ASAP.

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## Indus Falcon

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Well we can also incoporate weapons of our choice and indigenous systems to these boats!
> Heck even use the experience gained frm building the agostas.
> 
> P.S=Originally PN wanted 7 subs... 3-chinese rest european..... now 6? Maybe lease a nuclear boat? we had heard talk abt tht didnt we?


 
You are right, there is serious talk going on of leasing an SSBN.

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## Andross

Guys check this link out for the German U212A subs

Super-stealth sub powered by fuel cell - CNN


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## DelhiDareDevil

Good thing they are buying Chinese subs and not european ones.


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## khurasaan1

I guess this project should start as soon as possible...cuz the near future threats are imminent ..not from India specifically but from US......Cuz I am smelling near future war between US(& its allies) and Pakistan....and it is quite possible they use India as well in this game....


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## TOPGUN

Awsome news... PN is well on its way this made my day lets just hope this goes through.


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## ANG

Hi, this is great news. The other factor one has to keep in mind is that China is the only country that will offer soft loans and grants for military purchases to Pakistan. Pakistan does not have the money to spend $1+B on German U-214 boats. In addition, the French competitor, the Marlin, is still on the drawing board. Also, given the financial position of Pakistan, no other country will really extend it the credit facilities. As such, this is the best option with the most reliable partner.


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## Time Assassin

China sure knows how to spoil us


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## alimobin memon

pakistan is really working hard for indegenous-ism!!!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sparklingway said:


> Might be under consideration and awaiting final approval but earlier claims that this was Indian propaganda to justify their arms buildup stand negated to some extent.


Who were those claims by?

The possibility of purchasing Chinese submarines instead of the German or French ones has been talked about for over a year now, and has been mentioned several times by the Naval top brass. And for a couple of years before that there was all the talk about buying the German subs, also confirmed several times officially. Given all this talk and plans about Pakistan purchasing subs, why would anyone bother to make the argument that Pakistan buying subs from China was 'Indian propaganda to justify an Indian arms buildup'? 

The Indian's have had multiple submarine, frigate and Aircraft Carrier projects under discussion and construction this entire time, so as far as an 'arms buildup' is concerned, India had embarked on it long before the plan to buy German subs was made public.

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## notorious_eagle

blackops said:


> What about our arihant when they will come it will shift the balance again


 
Not really, diesel subs equipped with AIP are more silent than nuclear submarines. Arihant would have shifted the power in the region if both Pakistan and India were oceans apart, but since they are right next to each other, you really dont require that much endurance. Arihant is more geared towards making IN a blue water navy, it will help the IN project power far beyond its shores. Its also there to make sure the Chinese dont act naughty, the IN can show case to the Chinese that they do possess a second strike capability. So in my opinion, PN is making the right call by acquiring quiet diesel powered submarines and not wasting resources on expensive nuclear subs. If we have an economy that is worth $2 trillion, than we will also acquire aircraft carriers and nuclear subs.

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## Whiplash

notorious_eagle said:


> Not really, diesel subs equipped with AIP are more silent than nuclear submarines. Arihant would have shifted the power in the region if both Pakistan and India were oceans apart, but since they are right next to each other, you really dont require that much endurance. Arihant is more geared towards making IN a blue water navy, it will help the IN project power far beyond its shores. Its also there to make sure the Chinese dont act naughty, the IN can show case to the Chinese that they do possess a second strike capability. So in my opinion, PN is making the right call by acquiring quiet diesel powered submarines and not wasting resources on expensive nuclear subs. If we have an economy that is worth $2 trillion, than we will also acquire aircraft carriers and nuclear subs.


 
Last time i checked the indian economy was worth 1.5 trillion. And all AIPs are not quieter than N subs. And this is very bad news for india. Our first scorpenes will roll out 2015. So until then we will only have 2-3 new subs. (arihant class and akulas)


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## tanlixiang28776

Whiplash said:


> Last time i checked the indian economy was worth 1.5 trillion. And all AIPs are not quieter than N subs. And this is very bad news for india. Our first scorpenes will roll out 2015. So until then we will only have 2-3 new subs. (arihant class and akulas)


 
SSKs are generally quieter in shallow areas while nuclear subs are quieter in deep sea. 

However the yuan is a 3rd gen SSK with AIP and the Arihant is a 1st gen SSBN. Large differences in level of noise as SSBNs are the least stealthy types of subs not to mention that it is India's first.

Yuan is also only about 1000 tons displacement less than the Arihant.

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## Imran Khan

again our all waither friend is with us . no need u-214 .


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## VelocuR

Remember, uninvited guest Chinese Submarines pop-up in the middle of U.S Navy Exercise! 







Sweden AIP Gotland (old) submarine surprised US Aircraft Carrier, which unable to spot them.

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## blackops

RaptorRX707 said:


> Remember, uninvited guest Chinese Submarines pop-up in the middle of U.S Navy Exercise!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden AIP Gotland (old) submarine surprised US Aircraft Carrier, which unable to spot them.


 
lol that would have been a one heck of a surprise for uncle sam lol hahaha

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## TOPGUN

blackops said:


> lol that would have been a one heck of a surprise for uncle sam lol hahaha


 
It wasn't A would have been it has already happend & the americans didn't know to be either suprised or piss in there paints... hence, and i mean by my last words is > the element of suprise was so shocking so close to american shores.

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## VelocuR




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## Donatello

Do they have any time frame?

JF-17 was started way before, so we could induct the planes when we wanted.


i don't want to wait another 8 years to see first Submarine.


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## Pak_Sher

Pakistan needs to enhance the submarine fleet to potect the economic zones of Pakistan and to be able to fight against carriers. I hope some of these subs will also be manufactured in the country. Great news for Pakistan Navy.


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## Manticore

http://dc230.*******.com/img/jIpyO_xY/0.05559201101414757/1233928590_citizen_kane_clappi.gif

finally a good news for our navy!

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## Andross

tanlixiang28776 said:


> SSKs are generally quieter in shallow areas while nuclear subs are quieter in deep sea.
> 
> However the yuan is a 3rd gen SSK with AIP and the Arihant is a 1st gen SSBN. Large differences in level of noise as SSBNs are the least stealthy types of subs not to mention that it is India's first.
> 
> Yuan is also only about 1000 tons displacement less than the Arihant.




We dont know the spec of arihant to comment what gen it is being highley classified


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## jha

tanlixiang28776 said:


> SSKs are generally quieter in shallow areas while nuclear subs are quieter in deep sea.
> 
> However the yuan is a 3rd gen SSK with AIP and the Arihant is a 1st gen SSBN. * Large differences in level of noise as SSBNs are the least stealthy types of subs not to mention that it is India's first.*
> 
> Yuan is also only about 1000 tons displacement less than the Arihant.


 
Thats true..This is India's first SSBN ..However many veterans have worked alongside us in this project ..So, definitely the finished product is much much better than what a first timer would do..


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## Manticore

plz keep this thread limited to pak/ china subs


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## ANG

Hi, I hope the PN is negotiating with China for these improved Yuan class subs.

Chinese Navy

http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2011/01/chinese-plan-latest-type-041class-yuan.html

http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2010/12/chinas-new-submarines-and-deployment.html


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## Jinnah

Why Pakistan is planing to buy a nuclear sub? It will add much more strength, second strike capability and stealthier nature. 

Is the price difference is the major problem? how much is the difference is?


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## Areesh

ANG said:


> Hi, I hope the PN is negotiating with China for these improved Yuan class subs.
> 
> Chinese Navy
> 
> Chinese PLAN Latest Type 041Class Yuan Diesel-Electric Submarines SSK ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> China's New Submarines and Deployment Patterns ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


 
Well they seem to be the most probable option right now. It would definitely be Yuan class subs with some modifications according to PN's needs.

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## cross1993

Are you sure that is the yuan-class submarines?


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## Secret Service

Is this Sub is better then german u-214...??


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## Veeru

GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> excellent move my pakistan, if report is true. pakistan navy doesnt need to be a "blue water" navy to deter india. Submarines r best defence against aircraft carriers.
> 
> i think pakistan navy is pretty much equivalent to indian navy in terms of submarine warfare.


 
Apart from Arihant class nuclear submarines with 3500 kms SLBM that is a game changer + Akula II + Anti Submarine Warfare(ASW) Corevette + Boeing P-8 Poseidon you can't expect anything better then that.

Above combination with the carrier battle group + hypersonic brahmos will be deadliest on this planet earth after the USA.


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## cross1993

secretservice said:


> Is this Sub is better then german u-214...??


 
 The yuan-class submarines is the enhanced Kilo-class submarines, like the relationship between Su-27 and J-11.
But the news from China: Pakistan will buy AIP submarine. News did not identify, said the submarines is yuan-class.

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## khurasaan1

ANTIBODY said:


> http://dc230.*******.com/img/jIpyO_xY/0.05559201101414757/1233928590_citizen_kane_clappi.gif
> 
> finally a good news for our navy!


 
A good clap bro...

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## Roybot

I will be a happy person if all the yuans and the arihants and the akulas never get to see any action


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## SurvivoR

^^^ Apart from maybe against the pirates.


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## hexmat1233

they have no nuclear subs that i know of


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## Indus Falcon

hexmat1233 said:


> they have no nuclear subs that i know of


 
Who doesn't?

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## Penguin

Veeru said:


> Apart from Arihant class nuclear submarines with 3500 kms SLBM that is a game changer + Akula II + Anti Submarine Warfare(ASW) Corevette + Boeing P-8 Poseidon you can't expect anything better then that.
> Above combination with the carrier battle group + hypersonic brahmos will be deadliest on this planet earth after the USA.


 
However potentially deadly in landattack, a noisy boomer will still be a dead boomer at sea, where against another sub it is no more or less deadly than an SSK. Both Yuan and Arihant classes are unknowns with respect to how noisy boomer quiet they are and how good their detection capabilities are. Also, I'm not so sure what the lease of the Akula II says about wartime use / use in anger: I would expect the Russian would like to eventually reacquired their sub. The p28 corvette is nothing particularly fancy. And P8's aren't a magic bullet.

And Varyag+Moskit+C-803+Su33 or Kuznetsov + Granit+Moskit+Su33/Mig29K are less deadly than Viraat+Brahmos+SeaHarrier or Gorshkov/Vikramaditya+Brahmos+Mig29K?

Not counting French and Uk carriers with Rafale and F35 respectively and Exocet Block IV or latest harpoon.
Brahmos can be killed by missiles in service today e.g. ESSM /SM2 and Aster 15/30

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## Indus Falcon

*
Pakistan to acquire six submarines from China*

MUSHTAQ GHUMMAN

ISLAMABAD (March 09, 2011) : Pakistan has decided to acquire six Air Independent Propulsion conventional submarines from China to be fully capable to operate in a multi-threat environment under tropical conditions and launching torpedoes and missiles, reveal official documents exclusively available with Business Recorder.

For this purpose, a protocol for joint development and co-production of conventional AIP fitted submarines by Pakistan Navy (PN) and China Shipbuilding and Offshore Corporation Limited (SCOC) will be signed shortly after the approval by the federal cabinet. AIP is a term that encompasses technologies which allow a submarine to operate without the need to surface or use a snorkel to access atmospheric oxygen.

The term usually excludes the use of nuclear power, and describes augmenting or replacing the diesel-electric propulsion system of non-nuclear vessels. The United States Navy uses the hull classification symbol "SSP" to designate boats powered by AIP, while retaining "SS" for classic diesel-electric attack submarines. According to documents, Pakistan Navy is facing a critical imbalance in terms of submarines and ships vis-à-vis emerged threats.

This capability gap is widening exponentially with the passage of time. Keeping in view the PN's requirements of acquiring submarines, the issue was included in the talking points of the President Asif Ali Zardari's visit to China in 2009 and subsequently, it was discussed during the Chinese Prime Minister's visit to Pakistan in December 2010. The matter has been deliberated upon at the highest level at various fora, the documents add.

Ministry of Defence explains that in order to capitalise upon this opportunity, NHQ has pursued the acquisition of submarines with the concerned Chinese authorities. As a result, the administrator for State China has assured his firm support for the submarine project.

Technical negotiations will now start with China Shipbuilding and Offshore Corporation Limited (CSOC) on the proposed acquisition of conventional submarines Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) in order to finalise the draft protocol for further processing with the government.

NHQ has now forwarded a mutually agreed draft protocol to be signed between PN and CSOC as a first step towards joint development of conventional submarines. The proposed commercial deal between the two countries on conventional submarines, a copy of which is available with this scribe, is as follows: PN intends to acquire conventional AIP fixed submarines from CSOC as per agreed specifications, through joint development and co-production.

Under this protocol, submarines will be constructed at CSOC's yard and in Pakistan as per agreed arrangements. Co-development and production shall include joint development, training of PN/ Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP) personnel, up-gradation of PN's yard and other related aspects including maintenance ie ILS as per respective responsibilities of the parties as defined in the protocol.

The parties have agreed to the following: (i) to invest jointly to develop one new type of conventional submarines with AIP. And the methodology of investment will be discussed when the project becomes reality; (2) CSOC shall appoint one institute to design conventional AIP submarines as per agreement by both sides; (3) for the purpose of establishing agreed technical requirements/ joint development, the parties shall initially work on the base line technical requirements; (4) during joint development, CSOC shall endeavour to incorporate PN requirement to establish final technical specifications for the conventional AIP submarines to be co-produced. Final design shall be certified by CSOC to fulfil pre-requisite as per Chinese military/ Navel standards for conventional AIP submarines; (5) CSOC shall ensure that these submarines shall be fully capable to operate in multi-threat environment under tropical conditions and capable of launching of torpedoes and missiles of Chinese origin; (6) CSOC shall completely construct four submarines at its yard in China; (7) remaining two submarines shall be constructed at PN yard in Pakistan as per the Chinese standards after up-gradation of PN yard by CSOC.

For this, Kit of Material(KoM) of these submarines shall be provided by CSOC; (8) CSOC shall provide lead yard services for completion and outfitting of these submarines at the PN yard in Pakistan;(9) CSOC shall carry out and be responsible for all tests and trials of all KoM, machinery and systems in harbour and at sea.

PN shall provide all necessary facilities and arrangements for harbour and sea trials in Pakistan; (10) CSOC shall be responsible for performance of all submarines to be built in Pakistan, their equipment, machinery and systems in trials in harbour and at sea; (11) CSOC shall also provide technical know-how for construction of conventional AIP submarines along with associated support and lead yard services;(12) CSOC shall provide materials and support services for construction and outfitting and trials of all submarines and after sales/ construction support for at least 30 years; (13) CSOC, for the purpose of up-gradation of maintenance facilities and after sales support, shall provide a comprehensive ILS package for the co-developed/ co-produced conventional AIP submarines; (15) CSOC, for the obligation in the agreement, shall submit a technical proposal, covering all elements of joint development and co-production including operational training and ILS, for the purpose of contract formulation as soon as possible; (16) CSOC, for the obligations listed above, shall submit a commercial proposal, covering all budgetary estimates/ costing of joint development and co-production and financial support proposal for the purpose of contract formulation as soon as possible; (17) PN shall facilitate visits of CSOC's team for site survey/ maintenance facilities to formulate technical and financial proposal by CSOC;(18) PN agrees to respect all the CSOC's reasonable instructions/advises related to building, outfitting, test, trials, upgrading and its yard and quality control; and (19) PN shall where possible provide all agreed information to assist CSOC in its obligations and pay CSOC for all the items and services as per the financial terms to be agreed during formal contract formulation.

The proposed commercial agreement further states "whereas, after both parties get approval from respective governments, CSOC will agree to undertake the work to be performed in order to fulfil the purchaser's requirement on the modalities of this protocol set herein, both parties therefore agree to endeavour to finalise contract for joint development and co-production of conventional AIP submarines as soon as possible. Parties also agree to revise the protocol with mutual negotiations, in case any party has new requirement". The proposal had been submitted to the Prime Minister, Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani who directed the concerned Ministry to place the matter before the cabinet as required under Rules 16(1) (h) of the Rules of Business, 1973.

Copyright Business Recorder, 2011

Top Stories - Pakistan to acquire six submarines from China

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## graphican



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## Indus Falcon

graphican said:


>


 
Bro that's a Type 094 SSBN (boomer) which we won't be getting anytime soon. Although they will lease it to us in two to three years, once they work out the chinks in the armor. 

Type 094 (09-IV) Jin Class Nuclear-Powered Missile Submarine - SinoDefence.com

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## Indus Falcon

hexmat1233 said:


> they have no nuclear subs that i know of


 
Kindly see post # 73 & 74 in this thread.

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## us1956

with the sharing "know how to build". it will be a big help to Pakistan ships building industrial....more ships and more jobs at the same time


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## Pak_Sher

Veeru said:


> Apart from Arihant class nuclear submarines with 3500 kms SLBM that is a game changer + Akula II + Anti Submarine Warfare(ASW) Corevette + Boeing P-8 Poseidon you can't expect anything better then that.
> 
> Above combination with the carrier battle group + hypersonic brahmos will be deadliest on this planet earth after the USA.



Pakistan Navy will have a potent submarine fleet, with F-22s and Type 54 Ships, Fast attack missile boats, F-16s and JF-17s for Naval Support, P-3 Orions, SAAB AE&W, ZDK-03s, Z-9s etc..

Now to counter the Indian Fleet RAAD, Spada, Exocet and Harpoon will be there to deal with the threat. Plus Babur Cruise missiles will back the PN's punch.


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## Pak_Sher

us1956 said:


> with the sharing "know how to build". it will be a big help to Pakistan ships building industrial....more ships and more jobs at the same time



Pakistan needs to enhance its manufacturing capability and utilize the skills that were acquired in building and maintaining the French Submarines over the last 4.5 decades.


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## Thorough Pro

Pak_Sher said:


> Pakistan needs to enhance its manufacturing capability and utilize the skills that were acquired in building and maintaining the French Submarines over the last 4.5 decades.


 
It's not only the know-how, it's basically the lack of infrastructe for manufacturing complex heavy machinery. Unless we encourage and provide aggressive incentives to private sectors, we will not be able to start 100% local production. For a start we can focus on smaller ingigenous sub-systems, especially in the field of electronics.

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## GUNS-N- ROSES

Veeru said:


> Apart from Arihant class nuclear submarines with 3500 kms SLBM that is a game changer + Akula II + Anti Submarine Warfare(ASW) Corevette + Boeing P-8 Poseidon you can't expect anything better then that.
> 
> Above combination with the carrier battle group + hypersonic brahmos will be deadliest on this planet earth after the USA.


 
veeru bhai my views are purely based on my wisdom as research analyst.

wen we talk of naval capability, there are two important factors to be kept in mind one place second time. US is the only country right now to have a universal superiority any where in the world. india will have deadliest capability second only to US in india ocean. but does it mean it has same capability in south china sea/arabian sea. hell no.

our navy can match chineese navy in india ocean but can it match chinese navy in south china sea. the answer is no. so how are we the second deadliest navy in the world. 

india has a requirement ot have a blue water navy to engage china. so it requires battle groups and nuclear subs and aircraft carriers. pakistan doesnt have that requirement. it only requires capability against a closely located country that is india. so to counter indian moves to purchase carriers/nuclear subs/battle groups it has gone ahead with the best available option that is to acquire AIP submarines which are quieter then nuke subs and are also a major thrat to air craft carriers and other ships. 

wen a carrier moves it requires corvettes and destroyers to guard as a carrier never moves alone. however if u have 02-03 good submarines in that area thay can give the whole battle group consisting of carrier/destroyers/frigates/corvettes a good run for the money.


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## ANG

Hi, it will be interesting what version they do buy/co-develop. More importantly, can this submarine launch cruise missiles through a vertical launch system, or via torpedo tubes. If they do have a vertical launch system, then Pakistan will have to develop it.


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## Thorough Pro

ANG said:


> Hi, it will be interesting what version they do buy/co-develop. More importantly, *can this submarine launch cruise missiles through a vertical launch system, or via torpedo tubes*. If they do have a vertical launch system, then Pakistan will have to develop it.


 
IMO this is the reason for a new design.


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## ANG

Hi, I wanted to expand on some of the comments made by Mr. "Thorough Pro". I completely agree with his comments. Pakistan currently does not have the heavy industrial base to manufacture heavy manufacturing/industrial and/or high tech precision equipment. This makes it dependent on foreign suppliers, makes it sanction prone, and also chews up vital foreign exchange. Having this industrial base is useful not only for defense, but construction, the automotive sector, housing, power generation, etc.

I specifically remember reading an article back in 1997 on Dawn which covered the Agosta submarine project. Back then the PN was gearing up to assemble the second sub. I remember reading that the PN had imported equipment from France, Sweden and Switzerland. Moreover, all the special high strength steel for the assembled sub and the manufactured sub (Agosta # 3) had to be imported from France. Pakistan at that time could not produce this high strength steel. I hope Pakistan can also get this steel technology in house from China, if it does not currently have it.


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## Indus Falcon

ANG said:


> Hi, it will be interesting what version they do buy/co-develop. More importantly, can this submarine launch cruise missiles through a vertical launch system, or via torpedo tubes. If they do have a vertical launch system, then Pakistan will have to develop it.



The vertical launch system exists with the Chinese boomers, it will have to be modified so that it fits in comfortably with an SSK.

HS80 Steel was used in the manufacture of Agosta 90B, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese are already using HS100 in the manufacture of their subs.

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## Super Falcon

i think we need two different types of subs not all 6 subs of same claass would be stupidity


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## BelligerentPacifist

ANG said:


> ... ... can this submarine launch cruise missiles through a vertical launch system... then Pakistan will have to develop it.



Take a look at the alleged picture of the new Chinese SSK and recall the VL test of a Babur a few days ago. The jigsaw fits perfectly.

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## ANG

Hi, I meant to say that the PN would have to develop a cold start VLS. Currently the Babur is hot launched.


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## ANG

Hi, according to this article, the submarine purchase is still up in the air as there are no funds (3rd to last paragraph).

_Saturday, March 12, 2011
Later on speaking with reporters, Senator Lt Gen (Retd) Javed Asharaf Qazi said because of current financial crunch in the economy of the country, panel could not recommend to purchase the sub-marines, though it is needed, but there is no money for the purpose, as directing to concerned officials to plan a new strategy for meet the defense requirement as keeping in view next 25 years._

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## Capt.Popeye

@ Ang,
You have very sharp eyes, _muy Amigo!_


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## ANG

Hi, thanks I try to read stuff in detail and caught that. Maybe Pakistan will be lucky and China will give it a soft loan. No western country will give them a loan. 

On a side note, it is really sad to see a country of a 180M being so financially mismanaged and having such a corrupt government, just the economist/statistician in me talking.


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## IceCold

ANG said:


> Hi, according to this article, the submarine purchase is still up in the air as there are no funds (3rd to last paragraph).
> 
> _Saturday, March 12, 2011
> Later on speaking with reporters, Senator Lt Gen (Retd) Javed Asharaf Qazi said because of current financial crunch in the economy of the country, panel could not recommend to purchase the sub-marines, though it is needed, but there is no money for the purpose, as directing to concerned officials to plan a new strategy for meet the defense requirement as keeping in view next 25 years._
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


 
With the major chunk eaten by corruption, mismanagement, WOT.......it is not surprising that no amount is left for the up gradation of navy which is an equally important if not more arm of a countries defense which is faced by so many threats. I wonder if we actually going to realize this before or after someone actually imposes a blockade on Pakistan.


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## Indus Falcon

If you don;t have the money would you go talking about designing a sub? I think they are trying to put pressure on the Chinese to come up with a good financial solution. 

The Chinese will most probably come up with a good solution, reason being, a strong Pakistani Navy is in their interest too!

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## Indus Falcon

Secondly, If you have noticed, each time Pakistan goes in for joint production / R&D with the Chinese, they end up with a much better product too.

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## Areesh

Abu Nasar said:


> If you don;t have the money would you go talking about designing a sub? I think they are trying to put pressure on the Chinese to come up with a good financial solution.
> 
> The Chinese will most probably come up with a good solution, reason being, a strong Pakistani Navy is in their interest too!


 
I agree with Abu Nasar's post. It looks like this is a tactic by Pakistan to gain as much as financial leverage in this deal from China. Obviously nobody goes for submarine designs if it has no money to buy it.

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## Tameem

Areesh said:


> It looks like this is a tactic by Pakistan to gain as much as financial leverage in this deal from China.


 
Wrong...Its the other way around!! Chinese Authorities are foreseeing an esclation of conflicts in south china sea in proper and eventually throughout its borders in general within next half a decade and therefore all these extraordinary involvement in defence, communication etc matters of ours are the preparation of that worst case scenario.

Nevertheless, time will tell who is milking whom!!


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## Manticore

any timeframe of production in mind?


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## Super Falcon

still cabinaet has to reply i think we have to wait for next three years finally they sign on paper and chinese firm cut the steel as our navy lacklusterness we have seen wait for next 3 years time sir

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## Areesh

Tameem said:


> Wrong...Its the other way around!! Chinese Authorities are foreseeing an esclation of conflicts in south china sea in proper and eventually throughout its borders in general within next half a decade and therefore all these extraordinary involvement in defence, communication etc matters of ours are the preparation of that worst case scenario.
> 
> Nevertheless, time will tell who is milking whom!!


 
I don't know who is milking whom but it is a win win situation till now.


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## Kompromat

*NO MORE SUBS YET*

Pakistan Military Review: Senate&#8217;s Standing Committee on Defence Production Rejects New Submarine Project for PN

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## Pak_Sher

Yes, there is no money for the submarines since the parlimentarian looters have allocated Rs. 3.1 billion (3,100,000,000.00) for new lodges and under ground tunnel to the parliment house.

I would recommend to cancel the lodges for the looters and buy the submrines.


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## Pak_Sher

January 22, 2011The opposition leader wondered why the project was being initiated when several other welfare schemes were not being launched because of lack of funds. ISLAMABAD: The Leader of Opposition in the National Assembly, Chuadhry Nisar Ali Khan, has termed the Rs3 billion project of Parliament Lodges Phase-II an extravagance, calling for shelving it because of the economic squeeze. 

In a letter written to Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Friday, Chaudhry Nisar expressed concern that such an ambitious project had been launched for lawmakers at a time when the nation was facing an economic crisis, said Rao Saleem, a media adviser to the Leader of Opposition.

The opposition leader wondered why the project was being initiated when several other welfare schemes were not being launched because of lack of funds.

He referred to the misery of thousands of flood victims who were still homeless and living in tents, saying they were still waiting for monetary support from the government to restart their normal life.

Under the new project inaugurated by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Wednesday, two new blocks would be constructed in the compound of Parliament Lodges to house 104 family suites for lawmakers and 500 quarters for their servants.

Under the project, two new blocks will be constructed in the compound of Prliament Lodges which will have 104 family suites for lawmakers and 500 quarters for their servants.

The project has been awarded to a construction firm Habib Rafique Limited reportedly owned by a close friend of Mr Gilani.

According to a CDA official, the project had been awarded at rates 35 per cent above the estimated cost.

The new project shows the priority the government accords to plans at a time when all sides in parliament have been calling for austerity and amid demand of the opposition to cut at least 30 per cent government expenditure.

At present Parliament Lodges complex has nine blocks, including seven under the use of parliamentarians and the remaining two meant for the administration.

The existing seven residential blocks house 358 family suites against total 442 Senators and MNAs.

Nisar asks PM to shelve Parliament Lodges


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## Pfpilot

I'm no expert but I feel this leaves us dangerously vulnerable. We only have 3 modern subs in the Agosta 90s, that is nowhere near enough. If the PN instead bought more modern frigates, I would understand, but to neglect the navy when it is already far weaker than its Indian counterpart doesn't seem that smart. So now we have lost out on these Chinese subs and the German subs before that...whats the next step?


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## TOPGUN

Wow just when the news was getting better we all spoke to soon no subs for awhile.. offcourse the nation needs to stand on its feet first and kick out this courpt gov.


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## arihant

TOPGUN said:


> Wow just when the news was getting better we all spoke to soon no subs for awhile.. offcourse the nation needs to stand on its feet first and kick out this courpt gov.


 
Politicians are smart.

If their happens war (just imagine) they want themselve to be secure in underground tunnel. Wo din door nahi jab underground airport (in parliament) ka bhi project announce ho jaye ga.


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## IceCold

Black Blood said:


> *NO MORE SUBS YET*
> 
> Pakistan Military Review: Senate&#8217;s Standing Committee on Defence Production Rejects New Submarine Project for PN


 
Just one question how can a retd army guy head a senate committee making decisions for the navy on its future procurement.


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## Rafi

IceCold said:


> Just one question how can a retd army guy head a senate committee making decisions for the navy on its future procurement.


 
Latest news - by federal information minister Mrs Ashaq Awan - confirms that the cabinet has approved negotiations for purchase of 6 Chinese Submarines

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## Rafi

SLAMABAD, Mar 14 (APP): The Federal Cabinet was informed on Monday that inflation rate during the past three months has fallen from 15.6 per cent to 12.9 per cent. Briefing media persons after the Federal cabinet meeting chaired by Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani, Minister for Information and Broadcasting Firdous Ashiq Awan said that the cabinet was also told that external financing during past six months has fallen from 375 billion to 80 billion which is 79 pc reduction. The minister said that Secretary Finance briefed the Cabinet about reasons of inflation which include global recession and price hike of food and non-food items. 

&#8220;Ministry of Information in collaboration with Ministry of Finance would share detailed information about increase in consumer price of commodities with media soon,&#8221; the minister said. To a question, the minister said that PPP leadership always followed politics of reconciliation.
She said that President Zardari not only telephoned Mian Nawaz Sharif to inquire about the health of his spouse, but also directed the Pakistan High Commission to receive him at the airport. She said that despite political differences, we have to keep national interests over political interests.
&#8220;No doubt there are hurdles in the way of politics of reconciliation, but we have to overcome these hurdles&#8221;, the minister said.
To another question, she said that Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) has given sacrifices for the sovereignty of institutions and restoration of superior judiciary was part of the party manifesto. Ruling out chances of collision among state institutions, she said that all institutions should work under their parameters.
*The minister said that China has offered to sell six submarines to Pakistan, and the Cabinet has given go ahead to the Ministry of Defence to hold talks however before preparation of feasibility report no further comment was possible.*
About Mutahhida Qaumi Movement (MQM), she said it was an ally of the PPP and the government was trying to take all political forces along, and MQM cannot be ignored.
They are not quitting Sindh government and at Federal level they have some reservations, which would be removed soon and the nation would hear good news in this regard.
While replying to a question she said that Prime Minister has said that in the changed scenario in Punjab, the PPP will get a chance to play constructive role as opposition.
She said that protest over horse-trading in the province was a democratic right.
She said that all institutions are in the process of evolution and no person believing in democracy can think of insulting other&#8217;s mandate.
On the issue of US citizen Raymond Davis, she said that court will decide the matter of immunity and no discussion was held on the matter as it is subjudice.
Dr Firdous Ashiq said that PPP was as patriotic as any other party, and would continue to represent the masses sentiments.
About President&#8217;s address to the Joint Sitting of the Parliament, she expressed the hope that all political forces would follow the parliamentary traditions.
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency )

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## truthseeker2010

Long live the "People" Party's Government!


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## unicorn148

Pakistan should go ahead with this deal only if they have money to pay and should not go for soft loans because it will increase the burden on state. It has already taken soft loans on several other projects and it may affect the future prospects 
and the whole deal may be worth 3-4 billion $ and more than half of the Entire Pakistan defense budget


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## alimobin memon

so it means its approved or atleast planned plz reply!!!


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## Imran Khan

alimobin memon said:


> so it means its approved or atleast planned plz reply!!!


 
yes its approved 
The minister said that China has offered to sell six submarines to Pakistan, and the Cabinet has given go ahead to the Ministry of Defence to hold talks


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## bc040400065

unicorn148 said:


> Pakistan should go ahead with this deal only if they have money to pay and should not go for soft loans because it will increase the burden on state. It has already taken soft loans on several other projects and it may affect the future prospects
> and the whole deal may be worth 3-4 billion $ and more than half of the Entire Pakistan defense budget


 
No. Because as i read it chinese subs are far more cheaper than germans. I think i would be 1.5 to 2b maximum. I may add that Germans were offering 3 U-214 for 1b $, So even if Chinese subs are as expensive as U-214, then it would cost at maximum 2b$.


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## SAUD-404

Great news
Do we go for 6 subs with only one class or should we choose mix'n' match with Song class. I would prefer PN buy 4 Song class subs and 2 yuan class.


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## muse

> I would prefer PN buy 4 Song class subs and 2 yuan class



Why this mix? What capabilities do you think our navy should be pursuing that the mix you suggest would achieve


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## tanlixiang28776

muse said:


> Why this mix? What capabilities do you think our navy should be pursuing that the mix you suggest would achieve


 
There is none what so ever. The Yuan is a much more capable sub but is probably more expensive.

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## Indus Falcon

tanlixiang28776 said:


> There is none what so ever. The Yuan is a much more capable sub but is probably more expensive.


 
I don't know about the cost of the Yuan, but what I do know for sure is that in terms of Chinese Diesel - Electric, it's cutting edge.

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## muse

> The Yuan is a much more capable sub but is probably more expensive.



Come on now, are these capabilities, whatever they are, known to the public? So since we do not know the capabilities, we can't comment on them - However, if I read the published report correctly, it says Pakistan and China hope do arrive at an agreement about the capabilities and design a new vehicle -- so, it seems it's neither the Song nor the Yuan


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## TOPGUN

So its a go then mashallah good news... we need this deal bad. However , then why the mix of news in another thread that states the cabinet refused PN request?


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## unicorn148

bc040400065 said:


> No. Because as i read it chinese subs are far more cheaper than germans. I think i would be 1.5 to 2b maximum. I may add that Germans were offering 3 U-214 for 1b $, So even if Chinese subs are as expensive as U-214, then it would cost at maximum 2b$.


 
No the U214 cant be less than 500million $ because the AIP subs are costly and added the stealthy features it will be more


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## IceCold

TOPGUN said:


> So its a go then mashallah good news... we need this deal bad. However , then why the mix of news in another thread that states the cabinet refused PN request?


 
The standing committee on defense recommends things and they rejected it but the final decision is with the cabinet and they have given the go ahead. I just hope that we could manage funds in time for this deal as already there have been enough delays in the procurement of subs which is direly needed by the PN.


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## alimobin memon

thanks to allah !!!!

---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ----------

i also like song class


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## alimobin memon

Cabinet okays talks with China for six submarines

* Expresses solidarity with Japanese earthquake victims, assures them of Pakistans support

Staff Report

ISLAMABAD: The federal cabinet on Monday gave a go ahead to the Defence Ministry for holding talks for the purchase of six state-of-the-art submarines from China to boost its under-sea warfare capabilities.

Minister for Information and Broadcasting, Dr Firdaus Ashiq Awan, told reporters after the cabinet meeting that Beijing had offered to sell submarines to Islamabad. The Ministry of Defence would hold talks for this purpose. Dr Firdaus said that at this stage it was not possible to share details as the process of preparation of the projects feasibility had yet to be started.

She said that the cabinet expressed deep solidarity with the earthquake victims of Japan and assured the Japanese people and the government that Pakistan was with them in their hour of trial. She said that the government of Pakistan was ready to help the Japanese and would dispatch medical relief, mobile hospitals and all available resources to them.

Dr Firdaus informed that two C-130 planes were ready to leave for Japan and are waiting for clearance for take-off. She remarked that Pak-Japan friendship is time-tested, as Japan has always helped Pakistan when needed. We have strong bonds of strategic and economic ties, she said.

The minister said the cabinet also reviewed the implementation of its decisions by the ministries and made sure that no pending work was left. The recommendations of the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) were fully endorsed by the cabinet, she added.

She informed that the cabinet also reviewed some memorandums of understanding (MoUs) with different countries.

These MoUs include the purchase of conventional submarines from China, which is part of defence cooperation between the two countries, she added. The minister informed media men that after consultations between the two countries, Pakistan would purchase six submarines from China.

The other MoUs include Pak-Turkey cooperation for the promotion of youth exchanges and establishment of joint cooperation with Ukraine. The cabinet also discussed the enhancement of arts and creative study with Sri Lanka, she remarked.

About the Kerry-Lugar Bill, the minister informed that the cabinet had ratified the bill under which the US would provide $1.5 billion annually and $7.5 billion in five years. She informed that the cabinet also proposed amendment in the Bar Council Act, 1973, under which anyone could provide direct financial support to the bars in the country. Dr Firdaus said that the cabinet was also briefed about the Libyan crisis and it was informed that up till now 4,900 Pakistanis have been safely repatriated from the country.

The minister said that the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Hina Rabbani Khar, had briefed the cabinet about the recent meeting of the Gulf Cooperation Council, which supports Pakistans vision for peace in the region. She said that Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani informed the cabinet about the political situation in the country including the issue of Saraiki province.


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## cross1993

Abu Nasar said:


> I don't know about the cost of the Yuan, but what I do know for sure is that in terms of Chinese Diesel - Electric, it's cutting edge.


 
I think Yuan-class is unlikely.
PLAN only has not more than 10 Yuan-class submarine, PLAN need quite a lot Yuan-class submarine(They have dozens of Ming-class submarines ready to retire). Chinese shipyards can not afford to take more orders.
I think PN wanted to buy the Song-class submarine. Or an enhanced version of the Song-class submarine.
And taking into account the capacity of India's anti-submarine, buy six Yuan-class submarines is a waste. Yuan-class submarines cost too high.

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## SAUD-404

muse said:


> Why this mix? What capabilities do you think our navy should be pursuing that the mix you suggest would achieve


well Sir in my personal opinion two different platforms for small sized navy like ours will do a greater good rather then going with just one we yet dont know about the capabilities of both subs. But i have seen another post in which it is mentioned that we will be working with Chinese friends to produce a totally new class according to PN needs so wait and see


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## SAUD-404

alimobin memon said:


> Minister for Information and Broadcasting, Dr Firdaus Ashiq Awan



today will be the first day we are happy to hear anything from you


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## Dazzler

Song Class was dismissed on grounds of inferiority to our A-90Bs and Yuan is being pursued as per my source. It is Yuan we are going for folks as their is no room or point to induct a sub inferior to our existing inventory.

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## alimobin memon

nabil_05 said:


> Song Class was dismissed on grounds of inferiority to our A-90Bs and Yuan is being pursued as per my source. It is Yuan we are going for folks as their is no room or point to induct a sub inferior to our existing inventory.


 
point!! indeeed


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## IND151

good move by our neighbors. but we are going to have 6 diesel scorpion subs and ARIHANT and 2 AKULA class nuke subs. so no need to worry. *plus we are getting 12 p 8 Poseidon.*


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## Indus Falcon

muse said:


> Come on now, are these capabilities, whatever they are, known to the public?



Well if the Song class can achieve this, wonder what Yuan class or Yuan+ can do? 

*
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced*

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.

*Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.*

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Mail Online

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## Indus Falcon

When we bought the F22P we also bought Chinese missiles with it. Just wondering exactly what will be coming with the boats?

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## SBD-3

Abu Nasar said:


> When we bought the F22P we also bought Chinese missiles with it. Just wondering exactly what will be coming with the boats?


 
What PN would be eyeing from these subs 
1- Maximum endurance, about 60-90 days (depends upon the performance of AIP system which is unknown to me at least)
2- Capability to Launch Land Attack Cruise Missile (I suspect PN has already done some experimenting on such thing if we remembered the harpoon missile upgrade allegations from US)
if we get these two things, these subs are as good as a Nukie since they can travel to anypart of Indian Ocean without detection and can launch Nuke Tipped CMs creating a defensive nightmare for India given its very large coast line.

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## Imran Khan

IND151 said:


> good move by our neighbors. but we are going to have 6 diesel scorpion subs and ARIHANT and 2 AKULA class nuke subs. so no need to worry. *plus we are getting 12 p 8 Poseidon.*


 
ye tum se kisi ne poocha hai yahaan a ker apni ram kahani sunany ko? we know dude but like these post distroy all threads.now keep you subs and p8 or p1008 in home .

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## truthseeker2010

Abu Nasar said:


> Well if the Song class can achieve this, wonder what Yuan class or Yuan+ can do?
> 
> *
> The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced*
> 
> When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.
> 
> At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.
> 
> That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.
> 
> The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
> 
> And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.
> 
> According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.
> 
> It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.
> 
> Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".
> 
> The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.
> 
> *Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.*
> 
> Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.
> 
> He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.
> 
> "It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."
> 
> In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.
> 
> The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Mail Online


 
And the song class was dismissed by the PN authorities on technical ground.....
Does our officials knows about this incident.
If true than I really wonder what the 90bs are capable of?


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## Areesh

Imran Khan said:


> ye tum se kisi ne poocha hai yahaan a ker apni ram kahani sunany ko? we know dude but like these post distroy all threads.now keep you subs and p8 or p1008 in home .


 
Us ka dil khush ho gya. Bachai kko khush ho janai dain Imran bhai.


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## Indus Falcon

truthseeker2010 said:


> And the song class was dismissed by the PN authorities on technical ground.....
> Does our officials knows about this incident.
> If true than I really wonder what the 90bs are capable of?


 
1) Well I feel they were right to dismiss the Song class, since the Yuan class is more advanced than the Song class, so it makes perfect sense. 

2) It was a well publicized incident, I'm sure they know about it.

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## Indus Falcon

hasnain0099 said:


> 2- Capability to Launch Land Attack Cruise Missile (I suspect PN has already done some experimenting on such thing if we remembered the harpoon missile upgrade allegations from US)
> if we get these two things, these subs are as good as a Nukie since they can travel to anypart of Indian Ocean without detection and can launch Nuke Tipped CMs creating a defensive nightmare for India given its very large coast line.



Can you guys recall the new canister for the Babur? Any clue as to why the canister all of a sudden became cylindrical and reinforced?

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## DelhiDareDevil

Here is a article I just read on FT

*Cash-strapped Pakistan buys submarines*​
Pakistans decision this week to begin negotiations with China to buy six submarines coincided with confirmation of figures showing that foreign direct investment is down 21 per cent to just $1bn in the first eight months of the financial year ending in June.

Clearly, worsening economic realities have been ignored by ruling politicians and powerful generals who seem *convinced that the threat to Pakistans shipping lanes is greater than the multiple economic, social and political challenges faced on land.*
Pakistans defence planners have sought to keep pace with military expansion in neighbouring India. *Yet, with Pakistans economic performance falling well behind Indias, the effort may be futile in the long run.*
Just last month, Indias annual budget was broadly welcomed by the business community in a sign of the countrys ability to continue attracting investors from within and abroad.

*But in Pakistan, finance ministry officials have worked frantically to persuade the International Monetary Fund to resume lending after only U$7.5bn was disbursed from a U$11bn loan program.*

For the Fund, the prospect of Pakistans annual budget deficit in the year to June soaring to as much as 8 per cent of GDP from a target of 4.7 per cent, without quick remedial measures, makes Pakistan, for now, an unacceptable client.

Some measures to raise revenue have been agreed between the IMF and the finance ministry this month, though it is impossible to predict exactly how soon they will begin to stop the haemorrhage.

In their defence, Pakistani officials have attributed a continuing economic downturn to losses run up by factors beyond their control, notably the effect of a security crisis unleashed by Taliban activity and last years devastating floods.

But Pakistans unimpressive economic record is deep-rooted. A glaring gap is the failure to revamp the tax collection system. *Just over one per cent of the population pays an economic tax *while repeated efforts to slap a robust VAT style sales tax have failed.

Besides, the countrys leaders hardly offer inspiration to others. Months after president Asif Ali Zardari spoke of plans to slap a new flood tax on affluent Pakistanis to raise money to finance post-flood rebuilding, the government still has to enforce that measure.

On other fronts too, there is hardly much hope. While globally high oil prices following the conflict in Libya forced many countries to raise domestic petroleum prices, Pakistans ruling party-the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) failed in passing on the full scale of higher oil prices to consumers.

The political cost in the shape of a break with a smaller political party which protested against price increases appeared to be unacceptable to president Zardari. Part of the budget deficit will come from the cost of the domestic fuel subsidies.

If indeed a submarine deal with China is successfully concluded, Pakistans generals will probably pat themselves on the back for part filling the so-called strategic gap (with India).

Islamabads long-established defence ties with Beijing will be further reinforced following earlier projects undertaken by the two in jointly producing fighter planes, warships and tanks. *But if Pakistans economy continues to sink, the countrys armed forces could well be faced with terrestrial challenges with the Taliban and others in which submarines may be little help. Meanwhile, India gets richer by the day*.
=====

Seems like a honest assessment, but with some Pak bashing on a neutral website.


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## Jackdaws

If they really wanted them - they should have spent some more money and acquired from another country. I would rather have 2 or 3 German submarines than 6 Chinese ones.


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## Imran Khan

Jackdaws said:


> If they really wanted them - they should have spent some more money and acquired from another country. I would rather have 2 or 3 German submarines than 6 Chinese ones.


 
its not abut nationalty of subs but capabilty . Type 096 an type 094 is also china made subs which carry 8600km range missiles .its all abut capabilty not china india russia or ugenda somalia .


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## Abhishek_

indian members posting articles on military acquisitions by pakistan clearly points to the concern they have. it would be better to be upfront about it rather than ridiculing pakistani economy or PA.

on topic: the new acquisition will definitely be a headache for IN regardless of who built it.

delhidevil, JD grow up guys


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## DelhiDareDevil

Abhishek_ said:


> indian members posting articles on military acquisitions by pakistan clearly points to the concern they have. it would be better to be upfront about it rather than ridiculing pakistani economy or PA.
> 
> on topic: the new acquisition will definitely be a headache for IN regardless of who built it.
> 
> delhidevil, JD grow up guys


 
You grow up, I read this on Financial Times and posted it here, like I clearly mentioned. If you dont understand this, then go back to school.


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## Jackdaws

Abhishek_ said:


> indian members posting articles on military acquisitions by pakistan clearly points to the concern they have. it would be better to be upfront about it rather than ridiculing pakistani economy or PA.
> 
> on topic: the new acquisition will definitely be a headache for IN regardless of who built it.
> 
> delhidevil, JD grow up guys


 
How Pakistan spends its own money it completely its own business. If you are asking me from an Indian perspective - then I am actually glad they are buying Chinese submarines and not Russian, French or German ones. People think twice before buying Chinese make mobile handsets - you think defence equipment should be sourced from there?


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## Imran Khan

Jackdaws said:


> How Pakistan spends its own money it completely its own business. If you are asking me from an Indian perspective - then I am actually glad they are buying Chinese submarines and not Russian, French or German ones. People think twice before buying Chinese make mobile handsets - you think defence equipment should be sourced from there?


 
and this post show you know nothing abut defense products of china. they shot down SAT and you are here flaming the thread with no sense. are you really know what china can made? and what is the real qulity of chines defence products? really you guys are blind patriotics nothing else.you are happy you cry or you dance pakistan dont care abut internet fan boys.

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## Jackdaws

Imran Khan said:


> and this post show you know nothing abut defense products of china. they shot down SAT and you are here flaming the thread with no sense. are you really know what china can made? and what is the real qulity of chines defence products? really you guys are blind patriotics nothing else.you are happy you cry or you dance pakistan dont care abut internet fan boys.


 
Calm down - are you suggesting that if Pakistan had a choice - they would actually choose Chinese submarines or European submarines?


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## Imran Khan

Jackdaws said:


> Calm down - are you suggesting that if Pakistan had a choice - they would actually choose Chinese submarines or European submarines?


 
when pakistan has money we buy french and french again now a days we lack many things WOT is going on economy is not in stable condition poor gov. even in worse time its best to be 6 subs from china as much as powerfull we can get. and there is no shame for this to me that they try there best to get better arms. and if you start compaire mobiles with subs then i am so sorry you need to learn.no look at last 5 decades we renew our subs fleet every 10 t 15 years 1994 to 2011 was agusta time 2011 to 2020 or so these 6 will work well and then time will come we got more new subs.world is not going to end after this contract. atleast they select there best under the prise tag which we can pay. may be there is proud for you guys but for me i dont see bad.remember when we use f-104 and mirage infront of russian tech of india and india was not like today are you think that was shame for you?

time is not same always.


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## blackops

Jackdaws said:


> How Pakistan spends its own money it completely its own business. If you are asking me from an Indian perspective - then I am actually glad they are buying Chinese submarines and not Russian, French or German ones. People think twice before buying Chinese make mobile handsets - you think defence equipment should be sourced from there?


 
Bhai you do realise they are consumer goods not defnce goods in which years of reserch has gone billions of money spent


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## Jackdaws

Imran Khan said:


> when pakistan has money we buy french and french again now a days we lack many things WOT is going on economy is not in stable condition poor gov. even in worse time its best to be 6 subs from china as much as powerfull we can get. and there is no shame for this to me that they try there best to get better arms. and if you start compaire mobiles with subs then i am so sorry you need to learn.no look at last 5 decades we renew our subs fleet every 10 t 15 years 1994 to 2011 was agusta time 2011 to 2020 or so these 6 will work well and then time will come we got more new subs.world is not going to end after this contract. atleast they select there best under the prise tag which we can pay. may be there is proud for you guys but for me i dont see bad.remember when we use f-104 and mirage infront of russian tech of india and india was not like today are you think that was shame for you?
> 
> time is not same always.


 
Fair enough. It is your call and your money.


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## Dazzler

Folks, DO NOT under estimate the Agusta-90Bs! they are quieter and deadlier than any Song variant to date and are highly digitized, powered for very rapid action. There is a reason why they were the only conventional attack subs in french navy because they have proved their worth! Coupled with an efficient MESMA AIP, SUBTICS combat data system and exocet, harpoon, black shark and other weapons, they are menacing and are silent killers in this part of the world till Yuan, Akula comes. This has been proved repeatedly in exercises by Pak Navy itself !

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## Pak_Sher

The deal is approved by the federal cabinet.

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## ANG

Hi Mr. Abu Nasar wrote the following;

_"Can you guys recall the new canister for the Babur? Any clue as to why the canister all of a sudden became cylindrical and reinforced?"_

That version of the Babur was hot launched. A hot launched missile cannot be used on a submarine. Rather a cold-launch has to be employed if a vertical system is employed. However, I am sure Pakistan can develop that technology. Otherwise, the LACM would have to be pushed out via the torpedo tubes and then launched.

Vertical launching system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Pak_Sher

Lets check out the submarines guys:

YouTube - China builds up submarine fleet

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## Indus Falcon

ANG said:


> Hi Mr. Abu Nasar wrote the following;
> 
> _"Can you guys recall the new canister for the Babur? Any clue as to why the canister all of a sudden became cylindrical and reinforced?"_
> 
> That version of the Babur was hot launched. A hot launched missile cannot be used on a submarine. Rather a cold-launch has to be employed if a vertical system is employed. However, I am sure Pakistan can develop that technology. Otherwise, the LACM would have to be pushed out via the torpedo tubes and then launched.
> 
> Vertical launching system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
THANK YOU!! This is exactly what I was implying )

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## Indus Falcon

Jackdaws said:


> How Pakistan spends its own money it completely its own business. If you are asking me from an Indian perspective - then I am actually glad they are buying Chinese submarines and not Russian, French or German ones. People think twice before buying Chinese make mobile handsets - you think defence equipment should be sourced from there?


 
Had you read and understood Post #129, on this very thread, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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## Indus Falcon

Sir, Are you aware that there are 4 types of Yuan class in existence? 

And the answer to your question is yes. The degree of customization, access to the latest missile technology, transfer of technology (in terms of production and maintenance), plus favorable financial terms all role into a very competitive package.

Secondly, when deals like these are done, they have serious positive repercussions on other aspects of the relationship as well.

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## Indus Falcon

nabil_05 said:


> Folks, *DO NOT under estimate the Agusta-90Bs! they are quieter and deadlier than any Song variant to date* and are highly digitized, powered for very rapid action. There is a reason why they were the only conventional attack subs in french navy because they have proved their worth! Coupled with an efficient MESMA AIP, SUBTICS combat data system and exocet, harpoon, black shark and other weapons, they are menacing and are silent killers in this part of the world till Yuan, Akula comes. This has been proved repeatedly in exercises by Pak Navy itself !


 
 This is why we are NOT going for the Song class

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## SBD-3

DelhiDareDevil said:


> You grow up, I read this on Financial Times and posted it here, like I clearly mentioned. If you dont understand this, then go back to school.


 
1- You have not presented an article, but a blog post on FT Blogs, which has nothing to do with FT (I was wondering an FT article without link being posted ) 
2- Military in Pakistan does not merely depend upon the support of the Government but also have its commercial enterprises (e.g. Bahria Complexes in Karachi, Askri Bank, Fauji Fertilizers, Defence Housing Authority etc) so it should preety much clear up doubts that why military of "Cash Strapped Pakistan) can spend on defense more than allocated.

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## Super Falcon

i think 3 of them will be state of the art and newly made specially on demands of PN and other three will be yuan for sure ewhich have been dreived from russian submarine


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## tanlixiang28776

Super Falcon said:


> i think 3 of them will be state of the art and newly made specially on demands of PN and other three will be yuan for sure ewhich have been dreived from russian submarine


 
Even normal yuans are still very advanced. Songs were modified Kilos. Yuans are far larger and much more advanced,


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## Obambam

IND151 said:


> good move by our neighbors. but we are going to have 6 diesel scorpion subs and ARIHANT and 2 AKULA class nuke subs. so no need to worry. *plus we are getting 12 p 8 Poseidon.*


 
Yes and equally good move by India. I am sure all the impoverished and dying people of India are jumping up and down and clapping their hands with joy to this great news!


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## tanlixiang28776

Obambam said:


> Yes and equally good move by India. I am sure all the impoverished and dying people of India are jumping up and down and clapping their hands with joy to this great news!


 
Please stop.


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## Obambam

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Please stop.


 
Yes I agree with you Yuans are very advanced and it is great for Pakistan as it fits their budget and military criterias. They can gain valuable experience from it and has the option to impliment their choice of weapon and ammunitions.

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## GodlessBastard

I have always said that submarines are the best way to go for the PN. Good to see that they are going through with it.

At this stage, surface combat vessels are just a liability for them.


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## Penguin

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Even normal yuans are still very advanced. Songs were modified Kilos. Yuans are far larger and much more advanced,


 
Song class has nothing to do with Kilo. Only Yuans bear resemblance to Kilo.

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## tanlixiang28776

Penguin said:


> Song class has nothing to do with Kilo. Only Yuans bear resemblance to Kilo.


 
You're right. Sometimes I get my subs mixed up. Posted rather late in the night.


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## Pak_Sher

PN needs to speed with the submarines acquisition.


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/98561-modern-submarine-designs.html

^^any input here would be greatly appreciated [as i am more into the aircrafts designs
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/75408-combat-aircraft-designs.html ]

regards

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## SBD-3

GodlessBastard said:


> I have always said that submarines are the best way to go for the PN. Good to see that they are going through with it.
> 
> At this stage, surface combat vessels are just a liability for them.


 
Sub is the best vessel in defensive and strike roles.And its a fact that Diesel electric subs are far more quieter than Nukies. The advantage of Nukies is their larger endurance and better speed when compared to AIP. China needs Nukies as one of its potential adversaries i.e. US is at considerable distance. However, Pakistan may not be in need for such thing, if PN gets a sub capable for 60-90 days endurance, it can cover almost all of the Indian coastline in Indian Ocean and pose a significant threat. On question about role P-8s when a sub is in depth, none of the parties, i.e. Sub and P-8 knows anything about each other. For hunting a sub, P-8 operators should first know there is a sub down in the area then they can focus on that or even may try to hunt it with usual trial and hunt method. However, to clear things up, hunting a sub and that to a very quiet one is not as easy as you guys think it is


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## Indus Falcon

Penguin said:


> Song class has nothing to do with Kilo. Only Yuans bear resemblance to Kilo.


 
Actually the latest Yuan is more closer to the Russian Lada class than Kilo.

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## Indus Falcon

hasnain0099 said:


> , hunting a sub and that to a very quiet one is not as easy as you guys think it is


 
I believe it is a piece of cake for the Indians

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## cross1993

Abu Nasar said:


> Actually the latest Yuan is more closer to the Russian Lada class than Kilo.


 
You are right. But only the latest four Yuan-class submarines equal to Russian Lada-class submarines. Most Yuan-class submarines equal to Russian Kilo-class submarines.


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## SAUD-404

Abu Nasar said:


> Actually the latest Yuan is more closer to the Russian Lada class than Kilo.


I hope not because this looks ugly!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Indus Falcon

SAUD-404 said:


> I hope not because this looks ugly!!!!!!!!!!!!!


* 
Type 041 Yuan Class*











*Lada Class*

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## Indus Falcon

SAUD-404 said:


> I hope not because this looks ugly!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
I think the picture you are referring to i.e. Post #163, is a Song Class Sub

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## Hafizzz

GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> excellent move my pakistan, if report is true. pakistan navy doesnt need to be a "blue water" navy to deter india. Submarines r best defence against aircraft carriers.
> 
> i think pakistan navy is pretty much equivalent to indian navy in terms of submarine warfare.


 
Submarines are not the best deterrence against Indian Aircraft Carriers but Chinese 'Carrier-Killer' Missile is !!!

Pakistan should get this 'Carrier-Killer' Missile as soon as possible


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## Indus Falcon

*Chinese Submarines Seek More Quiet in deep blue sea*
Posted on 17 January 2011

The last of four Chinese Yuan diesel-electric submarine has appeared. There was no official information released, but based on photos available it appears to be another development in China's taking Russian submarine technology and *adapting* it for Chinese designs. China has been doing this for as long as it has been building subs (since the 1960s). But this latest version of what appears to be the Type 41 design, shows Chinese naval engineers getting more creative. Two or more Yuans are believed to have an AIP (air independent propulsion system) that would allow them to cruise underwater for two weeks or more.

The Type 41A, or Yuan class, looks a lot like the Russian Kilo class. In the late 1990s, the Chinese began ordering Russian Kilo class subs, then one of the latest diesel-electric design available. Russia was selling new Kilos for about $200 million each, which is about half the price other Western nations sold similar boats for. The Kilos weigh 2,300 tons (surface displacement), have six torpedo tubes and a crew of 57. They are quiet, and can travel about 700 kilometers under water at a quiet speed of about five kilometers an hour. Kilos carry 18 torpedoes or SS-N-27 anti-ship missiles (with a range of 300 kilometers and launched underwater from the torpedo tubes.) The combination of quietness and cruise missiles makes Kilo very dangerous to American carriers. North Korea and Iran have also bought Kilos.

The last two Yuans, appear to be an improvement on the first two. The first two Yuans appeared to be a copy of the early model Kilo (the model 877), while the second Yuan (referred to as a Type 41B) appeared to copy the late Kilos (model 636). The last two Yuans may end up being a further evolution, or Type 41C. The objective of all this evolution may be a sub that appears similar to the Russian successor to the Kilo, the Lada. 

The first Lada underwent three years of sea trials before they were declared fit for service two years ago. Two are under construction and eight are planned. The Kilo class boats entered service in the early 1980s. Russia only bought 24 of them, but exported over 30. It was considered a successful design. But just before the Cold War ended in 1991, the Soviet Navy began work on the Lada. This project was stalled during most of the 1990s by a lack of money, but was revived in the last decade.

The Ladas have six 533mm torpedo tubes, with 18 torpedoes and/or missiles carried. The Lada has a surface displacement of 1,750 tons, are 71 meters (220 feet) long and carry a crew of 38. Each crew member has their own cabin (very small for the junior crew, but still, a big morale boost). When submerged, the submarine can cruise at a top speed of about 39 kilometers an hour (half that on the surface) and can dive to about 250 meters (800 feet). The Lada can stay at sea for as long as 50 days, and the sub can travel as much as 10,000 kilometers using its diesel engine (underwater, via the snorkel). Submerged, using battery power, the Lada can travel about 450 kilometers. There is also an electronic periscope (which goes to the surface via a cable), that includes a night vision capability and a laser range finder. The Lada was designed to accept a AIP (air independent propulsion) system. Russia was long a pioneer in AIP design, but in the last decade, Western European nations have taken the lead. 

Construction on the first Lada began in 1997, but money shortages delayed work for years. The first Lada boat was finally completed in 2005. A less complex version, called the Amur, is being offered for export. The new Chinese Yuan class boat is larger than the Kilos or Ladas, but has similar external design features. It will be a while before more details can be uncovered.

The Ladas are designed to be fast attack and scouting boats. They are intended for anti-surface and anti-submarine operations as well as naval reconnaissance. *These boats are said to be eight times quieter than the Kilos*. This was accomplished by using anechoic (sound absorbing) tile coatings on the exterior, and a very quiet (skewed) propeller. All interior machinery was designed with silence in mind. The sensors include active and passive sonars, including towed passive sonar. This quietness is what the Chinese are looking for, because diesel-electric boats are the quietest available (all things being equal), even quieter than AIP.

Preceding the Yuans was the Type 39, or Song class. This was the first Chinese sub to have the teardrop shaped hull, and was based on the predecessor of the Kilo, the Romeo class. The Type 41 was thought to be just an improved Song, but on closer examination, especially by the Russians, it looked like a clone of the Kilos. China currently has 13 Song class, 12 Kilo class, three Yuan class and 25 Romeo class boats. There are only three Han class SSNs, as the Chinese are still having a lot of problems with nuclear power in subs. Despite that, the Hans are going to sea, even though they are noisy and easily detected by Western sensors

Chinese Submarines Seek More Quiet in deep blue sea|China Military Power Mashup

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## raveolution

Hafizzz said:


> Submarines are not the best deterrence against Indian Aircraft Carriers but Chinese 'Carrier-Killer' Missile is !!!
> 
> Pakistan should get this 'Carrier-Killer' Missile as soon as possible



While what you are saying is right, this cannot ever happen as the MTCR does not permit missiles wit a range of more than 300 kms to be exported.


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## Indus Falcon

raveolution said:


> While what you are saying is right, this cannot ever happen as the MTCR does not permit missiles wit a range of more than 300 kms to be exported.


 
In a theoretical / perfect world, you would have been right.  

Secondly, what you have mentioned is a view held by many Indians - it's called *wishful thinking* 

Before you and your fellow country men start trolling, I'll close this MTCR nonsense once and for all:

1) Despite a clear violation of the MTCR i.e. Black Shaheen, the US sold F16 Blk 60 + ammo to the UAE. Further to that they are upgrading the desert falcons to Blk 70 as well.

2) The Saudi's bought CSS2 from China - clear violation of MTCR. 

Do yo see anyone loosing sleep over the above?


SO please don't spoil a thread by coming up with such lame comments. Thank You!!

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## cross1993

About 'Carrier-Killer' DF-21D. 
Allow me to frank, MTCR is not the most important reason. Chinese govt is more worried about DF-21D data leak.


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## TOPGUN

Is it able to shot off missles ( cruise missles ) ?


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## SAUD-404

Abu Nasar said:


> I think the picture you are referring to i.e. Post #163, is a Song Class Sub


Nope the sub that i referred earlier it was a Russian sub design


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## SAUD-404

Hafizzz said:


> Submarines are not the best deterrence against Indian Aircraft Carriers but Chinese 'Carrier-Killer' Missile is !!!
> 
> Pakistan should get this 'Carrier-Killer' Missile as soon as possible



Nope ! AIP sub like Song class and Yuan class subs are the best deterrence against aircraft carriers.

And about carrier killer missile we will test it in the near future (inshall'ah) its also a cheap deterrence and some how effective if you do cost/benefit analysis against any other way of sinking a carrier


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## Yeti

carrier killer missile's are over hyped all you have to do is detect them via Sats then signal the ship to move out the way


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## SBD-3

Yeti said:


> carrier killer missile's are over hyped all you have to do is detect them via Sats then signal the ship to move out the way


....Well honestly, PN doesnt have any so it can sit pretty, IN on the contrary, will be having a few. On a serious note, China also has antispace capability. So probably they will first knock out all that India has in Space to virtually blind it. And lastly, carrier is not a sports car which can move 550 KMPH on sea surface. DF-21 has Antiship warhead indicating capability to hit moving target and they know it fairly that ACC is not a FAC which would have more survivability.

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## tanlixiang28776

Abu Nasar said:


> *
> Chinese Submarines Seek More Quiet in deep blue sea|China Military Power Mashup*


*

This is a pretty strange recent analysis. 

Hans are old news and at least 5 confirmed. At least 2 Shang class were confirmed with more unconfirmed. 095 is also comng in just a few years.

At least 7 Yuan confirmed as well.

For something so recent it sure has a lot of inaccuracies.*


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## Yeti

hasnain0099 said:


> ....Well honestly, PN doesnt have any so it can sit pretty, IN on the contrary, will be having a few. On a serious note, China also has antispace capability. So probably they will first knock out all that India has in Space to virtually blind it. And lastly, carrier is not a sports car which can move 550 KMPH on sea surface. DF-21 has Antiship warhead indicating capability to hit moving target and they know it fairly that ACC is not a FAC which would have more survivability.






The first point to make is that (unless it is using a nuclear warhead) it is going to need terminal guidance to fine tune the warhead&#8217;s trajectory as it reenters the Eearth&#8217;s atmosphere. This is true regardless of how well China needs the position of the target carrier&#8212;the only target worthwhile shooting at. Consider the scenario China&#8217;s military must assume: as soon as a DF-21D is launched (and *hence detected by US early warning satellites*) every carrier anywhere near the missile takes off at maximum speed in some random direction. If the DF-21D is launched at maximum range (again something China&#8217;s military planners would need to assume), each ship could be some 13 km away from where it was a the time of launch. The DF-21D would have to correct for that change sometime during its flight. The most logical place to correct for those changes are sometime after the end of the boost phase since the target carriers&#8212;the only targets worth shooting at&#8212;can zig and zag at anytime.


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## tanlixiang28776

Yeti said:


> The first point to make is that (unless it is using a nuclear warhead) it is going to need terminal guidance to fine tune the warhead&#8217;s trajectory as it reenters the Eearth&#8217;s atmosphere. This is true regardless of how well China needs the position of the target carrier&#8212;the only target worthwhile shooting at. Consider the scenario China&#8217;s military must assume: as soon as a DF-21D is launched (and *hence detected by US early warning satellites*) every carrier anywhere near the missile takes off at maximum speed in some random direction. If the DF-21D is launched at maximum range (again something China&#8217;s military planners would need to assume), each ship could be some 13 km away from where it was a the time of launch. The DF-21D would have to correct for that change sometime during its flight. The most logical place to correct for those changes are sometime after the end of the boost phase since the target carriers&#8212;the only targets worth shooting at&#8212;can zig and zag at anytime.


 
I've seen this argument word for word before and it wasn't from you.

Are you just copying and pasting someone else's work?

At least quote them if you're going to.

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## Super Falcon

well we need sub which can destroy air targets when it is beneath the sea and also capable to destory any enemy ship and be able to be stealthy as well and hard to detect for enemy


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## Yeti

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I've seen this argument word for word before and it wasn't from you.
> 
> Are you just copying and pasting someone else's work?
> 
> At least quote them if you're going to.




When did i say it my work?


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## tanlixiang28776

Yeti said:


> When did i say it my work?


 
How would we know unless you quote it?


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## Yeti

tanlixiang28776 said:


> How would we know unless you quote it?





It was just for reference on the hype posed by this type of missile


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## tanlixiang28776

Yeti said:


> It was just for reference on the hype posed by this type of missile


 
Without quoting it is regarded as plagiarism.

I agree it is hyped for the US navy. Any other navy would be an easy target though.


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## Silk

Nuclear subs are difficult to detect cause they have huge energy reserves but still need food supply. The main problem is that the nuclear station uses steam to power generator. That steam produces a lot of sound. And you still have dangerous system which can be a big problem during real war. The same nuclear generators (4-5) are inside an aircraft carrier. Just think what happens if you hit that one with a BM. You end up having a bigger problem then Tokyo.


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## Penguin

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I've seen this argument word for word before and it wasn't from you.
> 
> Are you just copying and pasting someone else's work?
> 
> At least quote them if you're going to.


 
Uhn, how would you know who was who on the internet at different fora anyway?


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## Yeti

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Without quoting it is regarded as plagiarism.
> 
> I agree it is hyped for the US navy. Any other navy would be an easy target though.



depends on the counter measures in place by the navy


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## tanlixiang28776

Penguin said:


> Uhn, how would you know who was who on the internet at different fora anyway?


 
Sorry for having a good memory

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## tanlixiang28776

Yeti said:


> depends on the counter measures in place by the navy


 
land based anti conventional ballistic missile interceptions with ideal situations is difficult for most countries. Sea based ones against a maneuvering warheads is on another level.

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## Yeti

tanlixiang28776 said:


> land based anti conventional ballistic missile interceptions with ideal situations is difficult for most countries. Sea based ones against a maneuvering warheads is on another level.




Like the Aegis BMD sea based system, there is talk of India buying this system alongside the Barak-2 which will equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class.


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## Donatello

Yeti said:


> Like the Aegis BMD sea based system, there is talk of India buying this system alongside the Barak-2 which will equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class.


 
Hi,


Are you blind?

Do me a favor and read the thread title again, and tell me if it asks about your Indian input?






MODs,

Why are such people not stopped from derailing the thread? Almost every thread is being derailed.

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## raveolution

Abu Nasar said:


> In a theoretical / perfect world, you would have been right.
> 
> Secondly, what you have mentioned is a view held by many Indians - it's called *wishful thinking*
> 
> Before you and your fellow country men start trolling, I'll close this MTCR nonsense once and for all:
> 
> 1) Despite a clear violation of the MTCR i.e. Black Shaheen, the US sold F16 Blk 60 + ammo to the UAE. Further to that they are upgrading the desert falcons to Blk 70 as well.
> 
> 2) The Saudi's bought CSS2 from China - clear violation of MTCR.
> 
> Do yo see anyone loosing sleep over the above?
> 
> 
> SO please don't spoil a thread by coming up with such lame comments. Thank You!!



While you were busy giving me a lesson on my "Wishful Thinking", this is what happened in reality.

1) The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) was established in April 1987 by Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Great Britain, and the United States. 

Neither China nor Saudi Arabia were part of this deal.

In the same year, 1987, China developed a conventional HE warhead version of the DF-3 for sale to Saudi Arabia. Therefore this deal was completely legal.

2) China agreed to adhere to the provisions of the original draft of the MTCR in 1991. In 2004 China applied to join the MTCR, but members did not offer China membership because of concerns about China's export control standards. 

As of 2010 China has officially applied for membership of the MTCR and has agreed to abide by its clauses.

3) The other issue concerning the Black Shahine derivative of MBDA&#8217;s Storm Shadow stealth cruise missile. The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) defines 300 km as the current limit for cruise missiles, and the terms of the sale allow the United States to regulate which weapons the F-16s can carry. 

Since the Black Shahine was deemed to have a range of over 300km, the US State Department refused to let Lockheed Martin change the data bus to permit the F-16E/Fs to carry the missile.

The MTCR does not apply to Aircraft. Its full form is Missile Technology Control Regime. It doesn't matter if they upgrade UAE F-16's to Block 1000.

Maybe you should read up on things before you put them up for scrutiny on a public forum. In civil society, we do take the word of law as practical and not theoretical. Still, any deals under the table are always a possibility, which is closer to "wishful thinking". 

Appreciate your feedback, if any. 

Missile Technology Control Regime
Missile Technology Control Regime
China and Multilateral Export Control Mechanisms
The UAE&#8217;s F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcon Fleet


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## Yeti

penumbra said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Are you blind?
> 
> Do me a favor and read the thread title again, and tell me if it asks about your Indian input?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MODs,
> 
> Why are such people not stopped from derailing the thread? Almost every thread is being derailed.




You are free to continue discussing your future sub purchase i was talking only in regards to the hype of anti-ship missiles mentioned by some members


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## Kompromat

Guys , this isn't an Indian navy thread , how many times i would have to remind people ?

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## monitor

from pshamim
Breaking News
Pakdef exclusive

Pakistan &#8216;s official stance has not been to enter into an arms race with India but it is determined to not only maintain a favorable strategic parity but also maintain superiority in selected area like underwater warfare.

Latest news is that PN has been negotiating with CSTC in China to acquire up to 6 Yuan cklass diesel-electric submarines
With fuel cell based AIP systems. Each double hulled SSK is expected to cost about $230 Million. 

Another intriguing news is of a possible 10 years lease of a 5500 Tons 091 HAN class nuclear submarine (SSGN) Along with these submarine, Pakistan is also expected to buy 4 Jiankai 054 class FFGs. I had reported the news couple of years ago. Now it seems that the negotiation are at a final stage 

Deal was discussed in length last year with Chinese Vice President when he visited Pakistan last year.
Deals are in advanced stage with Zardari being very enthusiastic. Hopefully we may hear more in near future. 

Type-091 have been retrofitted and modernized. Either Changzheng 3 (403) or Changzheng-4 (404) is expected to end up in Pakistan for 10 years. 


The details are not classified and many countries are already in the knowledge. I have been assured of that and cleared to break the news. More non-classified informations will be posted on the subject soon

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## SBD-3

Yeti said:


> The first point to make is that (unless it is using a nuclear warhead) it is going to need terminal guidance to fine tune the warhead&#8217;s trajectory as it reenters the Eearth&#8217;s atmosphere. This is true regardless of how well China needs the position of the target carrier&#8212;the only target worthwhile shooting at. Consider the scenario China&#8217;s military must assume: as soon as a DF-21D is launched (and *hence detected by US early warning satellites*) every carrier anywhere near the missile takes off at maximum speed in some random direction. If the DF-21D is launched at maximum range (again something China&#8217;s military planners would need to assume), each ship could be some 13 km away from where it was a the time of launch. The DF-21D would have to correct for that change sometime during its flight. The most logical place to correct for those changes are sometime after the end of the boost phase since the target carriers&#8212;the only targets worth shooting at&#8212;can zig and zag at anytime.


 
Okey but under this assumption, there are two arguments, 1) None of the country has used its Anti Space Weaponary 2) The DF-21 is launched from a very large distance or Maximum range. But applying these assumption will not hold significantly in case of India as 1) China can neutralize Space Recon ability on the Indian Side 2) The probable distance between Indian Carrier in Indian Ocean will be much lesser from a US Carrier in say Atlantic or Pacific.

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## IceCold

monitor said:


> Another intriguing news is of a possible 10 years lease of a *5500 Tons 091 HAN class nuclear submarine* (SSGN) Along with these submarine, Pakistan is also expected to buy 4 Jiankai 054 class FFGs. I had reported the news couple of years ago. Now it seems that the negotiation are at a final stage


 
Ohh nice. Now we are talking.


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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> well we need sub which can destroy air targets when it is beneath the sea and also capable to destory any enemy ship and be able to be stealthy as well and hard to detect for enemy


 and this comes from a "premium member", well to let you know, though there were experiments on IRIST being lanuched from German sub. However, this missile is only short ranged and can be only use with little effect as "last resort". its not the job of a Sub to hunt the "Hunters (Orion,Posiedon)" but to avoid them. As i posted before, a sub is best when it is sitting underwater blind from what is above because at that time what is above does also not know that there is something below. Making any such attempt will easily jeoperdize the position and thus conventional sealth (ability to stay undetected) of firing sub and other party can easily concentrate its ASW asset on highlighted area, increasing the threat instead of decreasing it.I agree on the second point but to clear things up , "stealthy" in Sub language is not what we presume in Aircraft language, it means making lesser noise, there are two types of noises, external noise created by outter body i,e, propeller and second one is the internal noise created by operation of internal equipment and AFAIK, internal noise is a significant part of overall profile. Yuan C is thought to be purposefully built with silence in mind. So if PN goes Yuan C then its not a bad choice at all as Yuan (A,B) on general is approximately 8 times quiter than song class


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## Yeti

hasnain0099 said:


> Okey but under this assumption, there are two arguments, 1) None of the country has used its Anti Space Weaponary 2) The DF-21 is launched from a very large distance or Maximum range. But applying these assumption will not hold significantly in case of India as 1) China can neutralize Space Recon ability on the Indian Side 2) The probable distance between Indian Carrier in Indian Ocean will be much lesser from a US Carrier in say Atlantic or Pacific.


 
You assume alot *China can neutralize Space Recon ability on the Indian Side * when India is also working on BMD technology


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## azfar

hasnain0099 said:


> and this comes from a "premium member", well to let you know, though there were experiments on IRIST being lanuched from German sub. However, this missile is only short ranged and can be only use with little effect as "last resort". its not the job of a Sub to hunt the "Hunters (Orion,Posiedon)" but to avoid them. As i posted before, a sub is best when it is sitting underwater blind from what is above because at that time what is above does also not know that there is something below. Making any such attempt will easily jeoperdize the position and thus conventional sealth (ability to stay undetected) of firing sub and other party can easily concentrate its ASW asset on highlighted area, increasing the threat instead of decreasing it.I agree on the second point but to clear things up , "stealthy" in Sub language is not what we presume in Aircraft language, it means making lesser noise, there are two types of noises, external noise created by outter body i,e, propeller and second one is the internal noise created by operation of internal equipment and AFAIK, internal noise is a significant part of overall profile. Yuan C is thought to be purposefully built with silence in mind. So if PN goes Yuan C then its not a bad choice at all as Yuan (A,B) on general is approximately 8 times quiter than song class


 
how is radar range/performance affected under water considering a sub cant have conventional large antina radar?


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## ares

azfar said:


> how is radar range/performance affected under water considering a sub cant have conventional large antina radar?


 
Radar does not work underwater!!


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## azfar

^ then how does slbm and guided torpedo get guidance?


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## ares

Ballistic missile are not guided by radar ..they follow a parabolic path to hit a fixed target on land(use Inertial navigation system or GPS for navgation.)

Torpedoes are either wire guided from the submarine itself or are wake homing(zeros on the other ships wake) or are have active or passive SONARs fitted into there nose cones.

Submarine relies on active and passive SONAR underwater navigation and detection of targets.

Radars are stowed in while operating underwater and radar antena in only raised ..when the sub is surfaced.


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## Indus Falcon

raveolution said:


> While what you are saying is right, this cannot ever happen as the MTCR does not permit missiles wit a range of more than 300 kms to be exported.


 


raveolution said:


> While you were busy giving me a lesson on my "Wishful Thinking", this is what happened in reality.
> 
> 1) The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) was established in April 1987 by Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Great Britain, and the United States.
> 
> Neither China nor Saudi Arabia were part of this deal.
> 
> In the same year, 1987, China developed a conventional HE warhead version of the DF-3 for sale to Saudi Arabia. Therefore this deal was completely legal.
> 
> 2) China agreed to adhere to the provisions of the original draft of the MTCR in 1991. In 2004 China applied to join the MTCR, but members did not offer China membership because of concerns about China's export control standards.
> 
> As of 2010 China has officially applied for membership of the MTCR and has agreed to abide by its clauses.
> 
> 3) The other issue concerning the Black Shahine derivative of MBDAs Storm Shadow stealth cruise missile. The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) defines 300 km as the current limit for cruise missiles, and the terms of the sale allow the United States to regulate which weapons the F-16s can carry.
> 
> Since the Black Shahine was deemed to have a range of over 300km, the US State Department refused to let Lockheed Martin change the data bus to permit the F-16E/Fs to carry the missile.
> 
> The MTCR does not apply to Aircraft. Its full form is Missile Technology Control Regime. It doesn't matter if they upgrade UAE F-16's to Block 1000.
> 
> Maybe you should read up on things before you put them up for scrutiny on a public forum. In civil society, we do take the word of law as practical and not theoretical. Still, any deals under the table are always a possibility, which is closer to "wishful thinking".
> 
> Appreciate your feedback, if any.
> 
> Missile Technology Control Regime
> Missile Technology Control Regime
> China and Multilateral Export Control Mechanisms
> The UAEs F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcon Fleet




You mentioned about MTCR (post #176), but by your own admission in Post#202 neither Pakistan nor China is a member of MTCR. The only thing that you could put forward was that China tries to practice self restraint / compliance with MTCR, which by no means, means that it is obligated to do so! Maybe you should not contradict yourself and look like a FOOL on a public forum!!

1) The point about the Black Shaheen and the F16 was - REPERCUSSIONS. Of which there were NONE. 

What this tells us is that being a typical Indian you are doing the only thing you can do: trolling!!

*MODS: Please delete and issue infractions for trolls derailing this thread. Thank You!!*

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## SBD-3

Yeti said:


> You assume alot *China can neutralize Space Recon ability on the Indian Side * when India is also *working on BMD technology*


 
But China has already tested this a year or two ago so their tech is active now. By the way I was questioning your assumptions that considering India in context rather than US (what you pasted) how do you think that Indian carrier have the same fair chance as the US carrier

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## Penguin

Can we gt back to topics, please. (Don't think present discussion has anything to do with acquisition of 6 Yuan SSK....)

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## Penguin

azfar said:


> ^ then how does slbm and guided torpedo get guidance?


 


> Some lower frequency active sonars are powerful enough in output, and sensitive enough in receiving, that they could detect a submarine at the point where the refracted sound waves are back near the surface. This phenomenon is called the 'convergence zone' in part because acoustic paths that have spread somewhat have converged back together.
> 
> The radius of the convergence zone depends on the water depth and temperature (and salinity plus more) - it gets closer in cold water and farther away in warm water. The usual quoted maximum practical convergence zone range is about 30 nautical miles! Or it might be as little as 15 miles in the Arctic Ocean. The width of the zone where such detection is possible is normally about 10 % of the radius of this zone.
> 
> Some tactical towed arrays are reported as having a detection range of 3 convergence zones


ASDIC, Radar and IFF Systems Aboard HMCS HAIDA - Part 5 of 12

Perhaps sonar detection by a sub should not be underestimated ? 
3x30 nmi = 90 nmi [nautical mile, international] = 166.68 kilometer

See also Estimates of submarine detection ranges - Appendix 2 - The Future of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces - E.V. Miasnikov (Estimates of submarine detection ranges )

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## Indus Falcon

tanlixiang28776 said:


> This is a pretty strange recent analysis.
> 
> Hans are old news and at least 5 confirmed. At least 2 Shang class were confirmed with more unconfirmed. 095 is also comng in just a few years.
> 
> At least 7 Yuan confirmed as well.
> 
> For something so recent it sure has a lot of inaccuracies.



Xi&#333;ngdì, (did I say that correctly?) you are absolutely right! 

The reason I posted this article was not to highlight the number of systems in operation, but to highlight the impressive technical advancement of the Chinese. Hope this clears up any misunderstandings.

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## Penguin

Can we gt back to topics, please. (Don't think present discussion has anything to do with acquisition of 6 Yuan SSK....)

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## alimobin memon

according to this we will eventually go for 9 subs and atleast 6 will be yuan class 
Pakistan Military Review: Federal Cabinet Approve Joint Development of New Gen AIP Submarines with China


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2011 


Defence Weekly 

*Pakistan to start formal talks with China to buy submarines*

Farhan Bokhari Correspondent - Islamabad


Pakistan's cabinet on 14 March approved a Ministry of Defence request to open formal negotiations with China for the purchase of six new submarines. 

"Beijing has offered to sell submarines to Islamabad," said Minister of Information Firdous Ashiq Awan, although she refused to give details of the exact type of boats under discussion. A successful programme would allow the Pakistan Navy to reduce a growing capability gap with India in the northern Arabian and the Indian Ocean region, its main area of operation. 

In an interview with published on 17 February 2011, Admiral Noman Bashir, chief of Pakistan's naval staff, said the navy's most pressing requirement was the replacement of two French-supplied Agosta 70 submarines that have been in service since the 1970s. 

While describing the Pakistan Navy's submarine fleet as the "backbone of our navy", Adm Bashir admitted that "over a period of time, our submarine strength has dwindled and today we have five submarines, which is far short of our requirement". The five submarines include three Agosta 90Bs (Khalid class), purchased from France in the 1990s. 

The Pakistan Navy tried to purchase three German-built Type 214 submarines in 2009 but the plan was put on hold due to cost issues. A Western defence official said three Type 214 boats specific to Pakistan's requirements could cost more than USD2 billion. 

A NATO defence official based in Islamabad said Pakistan appeared to have settled for inferior technology to that on offer from a European source, but that the country's defence planners probably believed China would soon catch up with Western manufacturers. 

Pakistan has additional incentives to sign a deal with China, which is a close military ally and has jointly manufactured fighter aircraft, frigates and main battle tanks. 

"China's deep commitment to Pakistan probably means that the Chinese financial terms will be far more affordable for Pakistan. Rather than delay a new submarine order for cost reasons, this is probably the best way out for Pakistan," the NATO official said. 

 The Pakistan Navy operates five submarines, including three Khalid-class (Agosta 90Bs), built in France. (Pakistan Navy)


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## fatman17

"There has been some articles like this this week about Pakistan acquiring Chinese conventional submarines. I don't think it's official, but such talks have been going on for the past couple of years. I think that if it does happen, it will be for the Yuan class submarines that are currently under mass production. They won't be as quiet as the Western options, but they do satisfy the AIP requirement. At the same time, they have much improved combat system and sonars compared to previous Chinese submarines."


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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> "There has been some articles like this this week about Pakistan acquiring Chinese conventional submarines. I don't think it's official, but such talks have been going on for the past couple of years. I think that if it does happen, it will be for the Yuan class submarines that are currently under mass production. They won't be as quiet as the Western options, but they do satisfy the AIP requirement. At the same time, they have much improved combat system and sonars compared to previous Chinese submarines."


 

thats what i m concerned about ,Chinese technology specially the submarines are far inferior than the western one i think PN would have concentrated more on quality than quantity but anyways just cross your fingers and lets see what Yuan class holds but no doubt whatever it holds its still going to be inferior than U boats


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## Rafi

Don't believe everything you read, the Chinese boats that are coming out now, are as good as western tech.

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## araz

Rafi said:


> Don't believe everything you read, the Chinese boats that are coming out now, are as good as western tech.


 
Rafi Saheb
Do you want to elaborate a bit more. I personally dont know much about subs and especially chinese ones.
Araz


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## Rafi

araz said:


> Rafi Saheb
> Do you want to elaborate a bit more. I personally dont know much about subs and especially chinese ones.
> Araz


 
With pleasure Araz bro, the Chinese are catching up in every facet of defense technology, the latest subs, with their AIP propulsion and sensor's are on par with, and in some cases surpassing western technology. With countries like Pakistan which previously had many western weapons - that recognition of the improvement will become more well known.

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## Jigs

The type 41 seems viable to me. If Pakistan went with those. Whether these are on par with western submarines is speculation though. Germany has been putting out submarines since WW2 they have it down to a science at this point(other European nations have operated out of consortium's on some very capable submarines). This is china's second fully Chinese made sub (however i am sure many systems are based off foreign technology like the first one was) I wouldn't say whatever they made is outdated though. 

We have to look at this in context with India. They operate Kilos and Type 209s with different modifications. They are now bringing in Scorpène class(6 of them). No doubt this is probably what pakistan is looking to counter but unlike India the prospect of paying 3 billion dollars for them is not possible for Pakistan. So the Chinese options are the only ones left. That or a smaller purchase.

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## Penguin

Mani2020 said:


> thats what i m concerned about ,Chinese technology specially the submarines are far inferior than the western one i think PN would have concentrated more on quality than quantity but anyways just cross your fingers and lets see what Yuan class holds but no doubt whatever it holds its still going to be inferior than U boats


 
Far inferior??? Considering the steps from Ming to Song to Yuan .... not all that inferior, I would say. Besides, consider that UK in 1982 (still) found WW2+ Guppy class sub a thread during Falklands war...
Greater Underwater Propulsion Power Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Catfish_(SS-339)


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## VelocuR

we know Pakistan can afford U-214s which cost $330+ million per submarine, no excuse!

Approximately 3-4 submarines should start immediately ($2-3billions-10 years term). But Germany want 5 years term.


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## tanlixiang28776

Penguin said:


> Far inferior??? Considering the steps from Ming to Song to Yuan .... not all that inferior, I would say. Besides, consider that UK in 1982 (still) found WW2+ Guppy class sub a thread during Falklands war...
> Greater Underwater Propulsion Power Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Catfish_(SS-339)


 
Not to mention the new Qing class SSK







one on the left


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## Dazzler

i see type 41 yuan as a capable system in our case even better than A-90bs, reason is the technology in aip is fuel cell instead of mesma's ethanol based aip. Only german u212/14 use this tech. Yuan seems to be an attempt to replicate the u boats to me....


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## tanlixiang28776

nabil_05 said:


> i see type 41 yuan as a capable system in our case even better than A-90bs, reason is the technology in aip is fuel cell instead of mesma's ethanol based aip. Only german u212/14 use this tech. Yuan seems to be an attempt to replicate the u boats to me....


 
Yuans are at least twice the size of any U-boat. They are completely dissimilar.


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## Penguin

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Yuans are at least twice the size of any U-boat. They are completely dissimilar.



Type 212
Displacement: 1,450 tonnes surfaced, 1,830 tonnes submerged 
Length: 56 m (183.7 ft)
57.2 m (187.66 ft) (2nd batch) 
Beam: 7 m (22.96 ft) 
Draft: 6 m (19.68 ft) 

Type 214
Displacement: 1,690 t (surfaced), 1,860 t (submerged) 
Length: 213 feet 3 inches (65.0 m) 
Beam: 20 feet 8 inches (6.3 m) 
Draught: 19 feet 8 inches (6.0 m) 

You are suggesting 3650 tons submerged? Fine, but I don't see how that makes these subs 'completely dissimilar' (it's mainly length and some diameter difference...)

Agosta 90B
Displacement: 1,500 long tons (1,524 t) surfaced
1,760 long tons (1,788 t) submerged (France, Spain)
2,050 long tons (2,083 t) submerged (Pakistan) 
Length: 67 m (219 ft 10 in) (France, Spain)
76 m (249 ft 4 in) (Pakistan) 
Beam: 6 m (19 ft 8 in) 

Walrus class (NL)
Displacement: 2,350 t surfaced, 2,650 t submerged, 1,900 t standard 
Length: 67.73 m 
Beam: 8.4 m 
Draft: 6.6 m 
Kilo class (R)

Displacement: Surfaced: 2,300-2,350 tons, Submerged:3,000-4,000 tons full load 
Length: 70.0-74.0 meters 
Draft: 6.5 m 

Oyashio class (J)
Displacement: 2,750 tonnes (surfaced)
4,000 tonnes (submerged) 
Length: 81.7 metres (268 ft 1 in) 
Beam: 8.9 metres (29 ft 2 in) 
Draught: 7.4 metres (24 ft 3 in)


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## Dazzler

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Yuans are at least twice the size of any U-boat. They are completely dissimilar.


 
I didnt mean the size and dimensions, rather in terms of capability and approach and mentioned the Stirling tech based fuel cell AIP too, hydro dynamic sleek profile more stealthy than any previous Chinese submarine aided by rubber tile coating and much reduced overall noise levels.


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## araz

Rafi said:


> With pleasure Araz bro, the Chinese are catching up in every facet of defense technology, the latest subs, with their AIP propulsion and sensor's are on par with, and in some cases surpassing western technology. With countries like Pakistan which previously had many western weapons - that recognition of the improvement will become more well known.


 
Could you please elaborate which spheres the chinese are better than the west in. The other point to note is that PN has a plan to have 12 subs. 6 Yuans plus 3 90Bs make 9.I know 70s are also being upgraded, but the chnages according to various people are not going to make nuch of a difference to these old workhorses. What do you foresee PN buying to make up the numbers? 
There has also been talk of midget subs for more littoral roles and covert ops. Is there any update on that. Response would be appreciated.
Araz


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

araz said:


> The other point to note is that PN has a plan to have 12 subs. 6 Yuans plus 3 90Bs make 9.I know 70s are also being upgraded, but the chnages according to various people are not going to make nuch of a difference to these old workhorses. What do you foresee PN buying to make up the numbers?
> There has also been talk of midget subs for more littoral roles and covert ops. Is there any update on that. Response would be appreciated.
> Araz


My speculative opinion on the 12 sub plan is that the remaining three will be a newer design after the current program to design/construct 6 subs with the Chines comes to fruition. 

Alternatively, there might be a possibility that the PN might still opt for the 3 German U-214 subs if the economic situation improves, but I would consider that a long shot.

---------- Post added at 09:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------




araz said:


> The other point to note is that PN has a plan to have 12 subs. 6 Yuans plus 3 90Bs make 9.I know 70s are also being upgraded, but the chnages according to various people are not going to make nuch of a difference to these old workhorses. What do you foresee PN buying to make up the numbers?
> There has also been talk of midget subs for more littoral roles and covert ops. Is there any update on that. Response would be appreciated.
> Araz


My speculative opinion on the 12 sub plan is that the remaining three will be a newer design after the current program to design/construct 6 subs with the Chines comes to fruition. 

Alternatively, there might be a possibility that the PN might still opt for the 3 German U-214 subs if the economic situation improves, but I would consider that a long shot.

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## Rafi

According to my sources - there will be development's that will be Pakistani specific, this is not limited to, but would include a plug, for 6-8 Vertically Launched LR-LACM with at least 1000 km range.

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## Dazzler

Yuan in its current/ modified form will be a formidable submarine tech we can get for now but as good as it is with new combat data system, AIP, possible VLS plug for CMs, near stealth patrolling capability etc but one area where the U 212 (NOT 214) excels is the revolutionary Anti-Magnetic Hull technology which is strictly for German fleet. I dearly wish if Chinese are able to replicate something even close to this!!! AMH tech makes the 212 as stealth under the ocean as F-22 raptor in the sky!

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/


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## Penguin

Rafi said:


> According to my sources - there will be development's that will be Pakistani specific, this is not limited to, but would include a plug, for 6-8 Vertically Launched LR-LACM with at least 1000 km range.


 
ANd these srouces are ?


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## Indus Falcon

Penguin said:


> ANd these srouces are ?


 
Cannot to be disclosed on a public forum. Wait and see!!

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## Penguin

Abu Nasar said:


> Cannot to be disclosed on a public forum. Wait and see!!


 
Not verifiable. I'm not expecting name rank and serial number .... (but nothing doesn''t quite cut it either ;-)


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## tanlixiang28776

Penguin said:


> Not verifiable. I'm not expecting name rank and serial number .... (but nothing doesn''t quite cut it either ;-)


 
Perhaps they are the new much larger 6000 ton-esque Qing class SSK. They would have no trouble supporting LACMs and even MR-SLBMs.


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## Dazzler

Penguin said:


> Not verifiable. I'm not expecting name rank and serial number .... (but nothing doesn''t quite cut it either ;-)


 
Mr. Rafi is a senior member at Pakdef.info forum with respectable sources in Pak military and many of his predictions have been spot on in the past so i trust his info.

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## Penguin

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Perhaps they are the new much larger 6000 ton-esque Qing class SSK. They would have no trouble supporting LACMs and even MR-SLBMs.


 
You mean 'improved Yuan'?



> Improved Yuan
> The first boat of a much improved Yuan class (Type 039B?) was just launched at Wuhan Shipyard on September 9, 2010. This class has been speculated to feature a new sonar system (flank sonar arrays?), a new surveillance and targeting system (periscope, radar etc.), and a new weapon system (possibly long-range AshM launched from torpedo tubes). The submarine also adopts some advance features learned from the Russian 636 class design, such as the hull mounted retractable foreplanes. The sail appears wider but more hydrodynamically streamlined and stretched compared to that of 039A which might house a short-range SAM system for self-protection against slow-moving ASW aircraft. Its submerged displayment might have been increased to 4,200t. As the result its noise level is expected to have been further reduced. However there is no indication that 039B carries a towed array sonar. The overall performance of the improved Yuan (may be assigned a new class name by the west in the future) is thought to be comparable to the latest Japanese Soryu class SSG.


Chinese Navy

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## SBD-3

nabil_05 said:


> Yuan in its current/ modified form will be a formidable submarine tech we can get for now but as good as it is with new combat data system, AIP, possible VLS plug for CMs, near stealth patrolling capability etc but one area where the U 212 (NOT 214) excels is the revolutionary Anti-Magnetic Hull technology which is strictly for German fleet. I dearly wish if Chinese are able to replicate something even close to this!!! AMH tech makes the 212 as stealth under the ocean as F-22 raptor in the sky!
> 
> U212 / U214 Attack Submarines - Naval Technology


 
U-214 does not use A magnetic hull like U-212 being the export variant. The most important thing for stealth is silence i.e. minimization of both internal and external noise. AMH is more to do with survivability since AMH means you can easily evade magnetic mines


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## muse

Lets all of us keep our focus, this technology to counter x, that technology to counter y, I would offer, is not the point -- it's the "teach a man to fish.." That's what we should focus on - institutionalizing the know how - I don't think in this early phase that we should be looking for products that can compete with US or German submarines, lets focus on first "learning to fish" so to speak -- Super 7 to JFT took more than a decade, and JFT is a accomplishment that really does put PAF in a advantageous position, just as the submarine technology, whether design, construction processes, training and doctrine or R&D, will in a 10-15 year period, place PN in a advantageous position.

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## kill_me

when we say co-produce or joint-production .. what exactly does that mean?
after the completion of this, if it exists or any, co-produced project will Pakistan have all the know how/ infrastructure to build these machines or just enough for maintenance/repairs


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## VelocuR

France provided transfer of technology regarding Agosta 90B....what happened ? 

not enough resources to build more itself?
seek suppliers with France's permission- more $$$?

With China's cooperation, i hope it would make a differences.


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## Dazzler

hasnain0099 said:


> U-214 does not use A magnetic hull like U-212 being the export variant. The most important thing for stealth is silence i.e. minimization of both internal and external noise. AMH is more to do with survivability since AMH means you can easily evade magnetic mines


 

So where did i say u-214 uses AMH? read post again


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## ANG

Hi, the Agosta 90B deal was more of an assembly deal. Pakistan has come a long way since then, and hopefully this deal with China will involve a lot more technology transfer. Pakistan had to import all the high strength steel for the Agosta 90B hulls from France as they could not produce it at home. Hopefully they can make that steel in house this time.

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## satishkumarcsc

Does Pakistan produce DH 36 and DMR 249A steel for warshi production? If it does which company produces it?


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## SBD-3

nabil_05 said:


> So where did i say u-214 uses AMH? read post again


no, I implied if you're relating stealthiness with AMH..

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------

More by Pshamim


> During Zardari's visit to China late last year and subsequent meetings in Islamabad between the officials, Pakistan has expressed a desire for additional 8 frigates. The first four may be the Jiangkai 054(A) class but there is no word where the other 4 will be coming from.
> 
> There is a tacit agreement for 6 submarines as reported earlier with four produced in China and the other two in Karachi.
> 
> As mentioned above by some members, HQ-16 is a strong possibility.
> 
> This news is as of today. But What happens tomorrow is not guaranteed.


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## ANG

Hi Mr. Satishkumarcsc, I do not know if Pakistan produces DH 36 and DMR 249A steel for its ships. Can someone please shed some light on the F-22P frigate built in Karachi? Was the steel imported or locally produced?


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## Dazzler

We DO produce Agosta's HLES high strength steel at home now.

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## ANG

Hi, Mr. Nabil_05 this is great news. I am assuming it is another foundry and not Pakistan Steel Mills that produces this high strength steel. 

I remember reading a book called "Military Inc.: Inside Pakistan's Military Economy" by Ayesha Siddiqa. In it she trashed the PN saying they imported all the steel for the Agosta 90B submarines. I am relieved that the PN and Pakistan has moved past this dependence.


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## ANG

Hi, I did a quick google search and found a few companies in Pakistan that make high end steel products. I do not know if this is what is used in naval frigate and/or submarine construction, but it looks promising and is reassuring. Pakistan should definitely use local high strength steel for the production of these new submarines.

Amreli Steels Limited

http://www.magnasteel.com.pk/products.htm

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## monitor

If i am not wrong India too bring steel from Russia for building its nuclear power sub building so it is not so headache for Pakistan to get submarine grade steel from other country such as china if pakistan wants to construct submarine in Pakistan .


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## ANG

Hi Mr. Monitor, yes there is nothing wrong with importing something if it is cheaper than producing it yourself. However, in this particular case there is the question of critical and must have technology. I am sure China can produce steel used in submarine construction cheaper than Pakistan, simply due to economies of scale. China builds a lot more naval vessels. I am talking more from a case of Pakistan being immune to future sanctions and having all the key techologies in house going forward.


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## Penguin

ANG said:


> Hi Mr. Monitor, yes there is nothing wrong with importing something if it is cheaper than producing it yourself. However, in this particular case there is the question of critical and must have technology. I am sure China can produce steel used in submarine construction cheaper than Pakistan, simply due to economies of scale. China builds a lot more naval vessels. I am talking more from a case of Pakistan being immune to future sanctions and having all the key techologies in house going forward.


 
If you think this is a bout cost/price, I think you are completely missing the point.


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## Dazzler

Its not about affordability but quality available in house, merged with technology acquired from aboard. We already had sufficient high strength steel manufacturing capability but not specific to submarine related. All we needed was the know how, technological expertise, pressurization, refining, molding skill, machinery as per the requirement. If we didn't have the tech, we would have bought it from outside no matter how expensive it was. The prime concern here is "requirement". KSEW also has sufficient resources along with other private, Govt corporations to meet the naval product demand. Little off topic, but Fourth F-22p uses locally manufactured steel.

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## Akasa

If PN is looking for AIP submarines, then the deal would most likely be a Type 039G or a Type 041.

That would seriously boost the PN's ability to defend its waters as well as to penetrate enemy waters with ease, especially with the submarines' tear drop shaped hull.

It would also serve as a weapons platform for anti-ship missiles and cruise missiles. It would be perfect for shore patrol or for bombardment of enemy targets deep inside enemy territory.

It's unlikely that newer subs such as the Type 041A or Improved Yuan would be exported since they have to meet China's quota first.


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## Dazzler

PN was offered 039G but rejected as we were already operating Agosta 90Bs with similar dimensions in size, tonnage, displacement etc. but more advanced combat management systems, sensors, weapons, sonars, etc. What we are interested in is the 041 series customized for PAK Navy requirements in almost every dimension possible. Our navy requirement is very stringent as we have to face a much larger, powerful adversary, so we need the best bang for our buck. I remember when French offered the Merlin project, the level of customization presented to them in baseline (already fairly advanced by French export standards) model included even a seven blade propeller instead of traditional one and this left French surprised as to how deeply we scrutinize our procurements but i guess this is natural when one has limited resources and want to make the most out of it. Similar approach to Israelis in some way atleast.

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## graphican

Nabil,

I will be delighted if China could produce a non-magnetic hull for us which German U212 has. Is there any possibilities of that??


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## Dazzler

graphican said:


> Nabil,
> 
> I will be delighted if China could produce a non-magnetic hull for us which German U212 has. Is there any possibilities of that??


 
Considering their spending on R&D, level and pace of technology development, resources, i do believe they will get there soon. What i have heard is that, type 41 is the quietest conventional submarine ever made by China to date and is considered a serious challenge to US, Japan and other navies rivaling PLAN. It is considered at least on par with Soryo class (Japan) which is the most advanced sub in Japanese Navy as of now. Not a bad option for us at all.


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## kali

monitor said:


> If i am not wrong India too bring steel from Russia for building its nuclear power sub building so it is not so headache for Pakistan to get submarine grade steel from other country such as china if pakistan wants to construct submarine in Pakistan .



No the steel is produce by DRDO & SAIL.


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## SR 71 Blackbird

ironman said:


> *New-gen submarines: Pakistan steals a march on India ​*
> Ajay Banerjee/TNS
> New Delhi, January 20
> 
> Even as India has announced its intent to have new generation diesel-electric submarines, Pakistan has gone ahead and signed a deal with long-standing ally China to produce submarines with the same technology that India wants.
> 
> *The Pakistan Navy and China&#8217;s Ship Building Corporation signed a deal that got the seal of finality during the visit of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to Pakistan last December.* Indian security agencies in know of the matter have cautioned the government that this could tilt the balance in favour of the Pakistan Navy in the Arabian Sea.
> 
> India is looking to spend Rs 50,000 crore to acquire six new diesel-electric submarines that will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology to boost operational capabilities. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every couple of days for oxygen to recharge their batteries. A submarine using AIP technology can stay submerged for 12-15 days at a stretch, thus increasing its capacity to hunt down enemy warships without being detected. Nuclear powered submarines can stay underwater for even longer periods.
> 
> *Under the latest agreement, China will co-produce six AIP technology submarines with Pakistan.* Currently, the neighbouring navy has only one submarine -- PNS Hamza. Pakistan is also looking at an AIP system produced by a French or German maker to fit on to the Chinese made hull of the vessel, said an official.
> 
> What is worrying for India is the known pace of Chinese construction. China could well provide three-four new generation AIP technology submarines to the neigbouring country within two years. The Chinese had supplied four frigates to the Pakistan Navy in 18 months flat! The two nations have also co-produced the single-engine J-17 fighter that was inducted into the Pakistan Air Force last summer.
> 
> For India, it could take upto five years to induct its first such submarine, as it will have to go through the process of trying out offers from various global bidders before ordering the vessels.
> 
> The Indian Navy has a bigger fleet in terms of number but it is dwindling and will be down to eight conventional diesel-electric vessels by 2015. By then, the first of the six under-construction Scorpene submarines will join the fleet followed by five more till 2018. The AIP technology vessels will follow later. Going by estimates, Pakistan would complete the induction of its fleet of AIP technology vessels by the time India starts off with its line of such submarines.
> 
> However, India will maintain its edge over Pakistan in case of nuclear-powered submarines. It hopes to induct the Akula-II Class attack submarine K-152 Nerpa on a 10-year lease from Russia in the next few weeks while the first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant is expected to be inducted by early-2012.
> 
> Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma has already declared that nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant would be on &#8216;deterrent patrol&#8217; to provide the ability of a retaliatory &#8216;second strike&#8217; if the country faces a nuclear attack.
> 
> The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation



IN will posses 5-6 nuclear subs by 2015.Pakistan Navy will be obsolete compared to IN


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## TaimiKhan

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> IN will posses 5-6 nuclear subs by 2015.Pakistan Navy will be obsolete compared to IN


 
And nuclear subs is the standard to judge who is obsolete and who is not. Grow up kid.

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## monitor

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> IN will posses 5-6 nuclear subs by 2015.Pakistan Navy will be compared to IN


 
By your logic maximum world navy's are obsolete . come on man you are just fooling yourself

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## khurasaan1

monitor said:


> By your logic maximum world navy's are obsolete . come on man you are just fooling yourself


 
Come on man let him be happi in his dream world.....


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## Developereo

Sorry folks,

It's just an assembly job in Pakistan. Everything will actually be manufactued in China.




sparklingway said:


> *Pakistan to acquire six submarines from China
> *​MUSHTAQ GHUMMAN
> [...]
> The parties have agreed to the following: (i) to invest jointly to develop one new type of conventional submarines with AIP. And the methodology of investment will be discussed when the project becomes reality; (2) CSOC shall appoint one institute to design conventional AIP submarines as per agreement by both sides; (3) for the purpose of establishing agreed technical requirements/ joint development, the parties shall initially work on the base line technical requirements; (4) during joint development, CSOC shall endeavour to incorporate PN requirement to establish final technical specifications for the conventional AIP submarines to be co-produced. Final design shall be certified by CSOC to fulfil pre-requisite as per Chinese military/ Navel standards for conventional AIP submarines; (5) CSOC shall ensure that these submarines shall be fully capable to operate in multi-threat environment under tropical conditions and capable of launching of torpedoes and missiles of Chinese origin; (6) CSOC shall completely construct four submarines at its yard in China; (7) remaining two submarines shall be constructed at PN yard in Pakistan as per the Chinese standards after up-gradation of PN yard by CSOC.
> 
> *For this, Kit of Material(KoM) of these submarines shall be provided by CSOC;* (8) CSOC shall provide lead yard services for completion and outfitting of these submarines at the PN yard in Pakistan;(9) CSOC shall carry out and be responsible for all tests and trials of all KoM, machinery and systems in harbour and at sea.
> 
> PN shall provide all necessary facilities and arrangements for harbour and sea trials in Pakistan; (10) *CSOC shall be responsible for performance of all submarines to be built in Pakistan, their equipment, machinery and systems in trials in harbour and at sea;* (11) CSOC shall also provide technical know-how for construction of conventional AIP submarines along with associated support and lead yard services;(12) CSOC shall provide materials and support services for construction and outfitting and trials of all submarines and after sales/ construction support for at least 30 years; (13) CSOC, for the purpose of up-gradation of maintenance facilities and after sales support, shall provide a comprehensive ILS package for the co-developed/ co-produced conventional AIP submarines; (15) CSOC, for the obligation in the agreement, shall submit a technical proposal, covering all elements of joint development and co-production including operational training and ILS, for the purpose of contract formulation as soon as possible; (16) CSOC, for the obligations listed above, shall submit a commercial proposal, covering all budgetary estimates/ costing of joint development and co-production and financial support proposal for the purpose of contract formulation as soon as possible; (17) PN shall facilitate visits of CSOC's team for site survey/ maintenance facilities to formulate technical and financial proposal by CSOC;(18) PN agrees to respect all the CSOC's reasonable instructions/advises related to building, outfitting, test, trials, upgrading and its yard and quality control; and (19) PN shall where possible provide all agreed information to assist CSOC in its obligations and pay CSOC for all the items and services as per the financial terms to be agreed during formal contract formulation.


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## farhan_9909

can any one tell me

wil all the subs manufactured in pak or some in china and some in pak?


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## khurasaan1

I think half in China and Half in Pakistan should be the deal....cuz we need our own infrastructure for our future needz...


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## Penguin

SR 71 Blackbird said:


> IN will posses 5-6 nuclear subs by 2015.Pakistan Navy will be obsolete compared to IN


 
Yawn. As often as I thrash some of the members from Pakistan for their illogical sole focus on IN as opponent, I think I should also pound a few members from India. Monitor said it just right.

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## acetophenol

any info on the proposed names?


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## Dazzler

Another confirmation of Yuans for Pakistan Navy!

Reporter / Weidong Xu

&#19968;&#21521;&#23545;&#37051;&#22269;&#20891;&#20107;&#21160;&#21521;&#20851;&#27880;&#26377;&#21152;&#30340;&#21360;&#24230;&#26368;&#36817;&#20284;&#20046;&#21448;&#34987;&#25361;&#21160;&#20102;&#31070;&#32463;&#12290; The military developments in neighboring countries has always been concerned about the recent increase in India seems to be "provoking the nerve." &#12298;&#21360;&#24230;&#26102;&#25253;&#12299;4&#26376;11&#26085;&#25253;&#36947;&#31216;&#65292;&#27491;&#24403;&#21360;&#24230;&#28023;&#20891;&#23601;&#21517;&#20026;75&#21495;&#24037;&#31243;&#30340;&#28508;&#33351;&#21457;&#23637;&#39033;&#30446;&#29369;&#35947;&#19981;&#20915;&#30340;&#26102;&#20505;&#65292;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#24050;&#32463;&#24708;&#24708;&#21516;&#20013;&#22269;&#31614;&#32626;&#21327;&#35758;&#65292;&#23558;&#20174;&#20013;&#22269;&#36141;&#20080;6&#33368;&#35013;&#22791;&#19981;&#20381;&#36182;&#31354;&#27668;&#25512;&#36827;&#35013;&#32622;(AIP)&#30340;&#20808;&#36827;&#24120;&#35268;&#28508;&#33351;&#12290; "India Times" reported on April 11, when the Indian Navy called "Project 75" submarine development hesitant when Pakistan has "quietly" signed an agreement with China, from China to buy six equipment "air independent propulsion" (AIP) and advanced conventional submarines.

&#24052;&#28508;&#33351;&#39033;&#30446;&#39034;&#39118;&#39034;&#27700; Pakistan submarine project so smooth

&#20174;&#25216;&#26415;&#19978;&#35828;&#65292;&#26222;&#36890;&#26612;&#30005;&#28508;&#33351;&#27599;&#38548;&#20960;&#22825;&#23601;&#24517;&#39035;&#28014;&#20986;&#27700;&#38754;&#25110;&#20280;&#20986;&#36890;&#27668;&#31649;&#25442;&#27668;&#65292;&#20197;&#20415;&#20026;&#30005;&#27744;&#20805;&#30005;&#12290; Technically, the general diesel-electric submarines must surface every few days or extended snorkel ventilation in order to charge the battery. &#32780;&#35013;&#22791;AIP&#31995;&#32479;&#30340;&#28508;&#33351;&#28508;&#33322;&#26102;&#38388;&#26356;&#38271;&#65292;&#26377;&#21161;&#20110;&#25552;&#21319;&#28508;&#33351;&#30340;&#38544;&#36523;&#24615;&#33021;&#21644;&#25112;&#26007;&#21147;&#12290; The submerged submarines equipped with AIP systems longer, help to improve performance and combat effectiveness of the submarine's stealth. &#12298;&#21360;&#24230;&#26102;&#25253;&#12299;&#30340;&#25253;&#36947;&#31216;&#65292;&#23601;&#30446;&#21069;&#30340;&#21457;&#23637;&#24418;&#21183;&#26469;&#30475;&#65292;&#21360;&#24230;&#28023;&#20891;&#36824;&#35201;&#31561;&#19978;&#25968;&#24180;&#25165;&#33021;&#35013;&#22791;AIP&#28508;&#33351;&#65307;&#32780;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#28023;&#20891;&#24050;&#35013;&#22791;&#20102;3&#33368;&#27861;&#22269;&#21046;&#36896;&#30340;&#38463;&#25096;&#26031;&#22612;-90B&#32423;&#28508;&#33351;&#65292;&#20854;&#20013;&#30340;&#21704;&#22982;&#25166;&#21495;&#28508;&#33351;&#24050;&#35013;&#22791;&#26377;AIP&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#29616;&#22312;&#21448;&#23558;&#20174;&#20013;&#22269;&#36141;&#20080;6&#33368;&#37319;&#29992;&#26031;&#29305;&#26519;&#24490;&#29615;&#27169;&#24335;&#30340;&#20803;&#32423;AIP&#28508;&#33351;&#65292;&#20854;&#28508;&#33351;&#25112;&#21147;&#21183;&#24517;&#22823;&#24133;&#25552;&#21319;&#12290; "India Times" reported on the current development situation in perspective, the Indian Navy have to wait several years to AIP submarine equipment; and Pakistan Navy have been equipped with three French-made "Agosta"-90B class submarines, one of the "Hamza" submarine is equipped with AIP systems, are in turn adopted from China to buy 6 "Stirling cycle" model of the "meta" level AIP submarines, the submarine combat capability is further enhanced.

&#19982;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#28023;&#20891;&#39034;&#39118;&#39034;&#27700;&#30340;&#28508;&#33351;&#21457;&#23637;&#39033;&#30446;&#24418;&#25104;&#40092;&#26126;&#23545;&#27604;&#30340;&#26159;&#65292;&#21360;&#24230;&#19968;&#30452;&#25298;&#32477;&#32771;&#34385;&#22312;&#20854;&#39532;&#25166;&#20872;&#36896;&#33337;&#21378;&#29983;&#20135;&#30340;6&#33368;&#40073;&#40060;&#32423;&#28508;&#33351;&#19978;&#21152;&#35013;AIP&#33329;&#27573;&#12290; Smooth sailing with the Pakistan Navy's submarine development projects in sharp contrast, India has refused to consider at its shipyard production of 6 Mazha Gang "Scorpene" class submarines to install AIP cabin. &#21360;&#24230;&#22269;&#38450;&#37096;&#30340;&#19968;&#20301;&#23448;&#21592;&#36879;&#38706;&#65292;&#36164;&#37329;&#38382;&#39064;&#26159;&#20027;&#35201;&#38556;&#30861;&#12290; An Indian Defense Ministry official said funding is a major obstacle. &#25237;&#20837;&#25104;&#26412;&#19968;&#30452;&#22312;&#19978;&#28072;&#65292;&#35201;&#24819;&#22312;&#31532;5&#33368;&#21644;&#31532;6&#33368;'&#40073;&#40060;'&#32423;&#28508;&#33351;&#19978;&#21152;&#35013;AIP&#33329;&#27573;&#65292;&#36824;&#35201;&#20877;&#33457;&#36153;&#22823;&#32422;1&#20159;&#32654;&#20803;&#12290;&#20182;&#36824;&#25351;&#20986;&#65292;&#21363;&#20351;&#26377;&#22806;&#22269;&#20844;&#21496;&#21521;&#21360;&#24230;&#25552;&#20379;AIP&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#20294;&#33021;&#23545;&#38470;&#19978;&#30446;&#26631;&#21457;&#21160;&#25915;&#20987;&#30340;&#24033;&#33322;&#23548;&#24377;&#20173;&#27809;&#26377;&#30528;&#33853;&#65292;&#22240;&#27492;'75&#21495;&#24037;&#31243;'&#20173;&#21313;&#20998;&#22797;&#26434;&#65292;&#21487;&#33021;&#36824;&#38656;&#35201;2&#24180;&#25165;&#33021;&#23450;&#26696;&#65292;&#33267;&#20110;&#39318;&#33351;&#26381;&#24441;&#29978;&#33267;&#36824;&#35201;&#31561;&#19978;6&#21040;7&#24180;&#12290;&#26174;&#28982;&#65292;&#21360;&#24230;&#28023;&#20891;&#24050;&#32463;&#24320;&#22987;&#25285;&#24551;&#22312;AIP&#28508;&#33351;&#39046;&#22495;&#33853;&#21518;&#20110;&#23545;&#25163;&#12290; "Input costs have been rising, to the first five and six 'Scorpene' submarines AIP cabin on the installation, but also to spend about 1 billion." He also pointed out that "even if a foreign company to India provides AIP system, but it can attack targets on land availability of cruise missiles still did not, so '75 No. Project 'is still very complex and may need 2 years to be finalized, as the first boat in service or even have to wait 6-7 years. "Clearly, the Indian Navy has begun to worry about AIP submarines in the area behind the opponent.

&#22686;&#36141;&#28508;&#33351;&#26377;&#29616;&#23454;&#38656;&#27714; There is real demand for the purchase of submarines

&#30001;&#20110;&#21382;&#21490;&#21644;&#29616;&#23454;&#21407;&#22240;&#65292;&#21360;&#24230;&#21644;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#20043;&#38388;&#30340;&#25932;&#24847;&#19968;&#30452;&#26080;&#27861;&#24443;&#24213;&#28040;&#35299;&#65292;&#34920;&#29616;&#22312;&#22269;&#38450;&#24314;&#35774;&#39046;&#22495;&#65292;&#38155;&#30456;&#23545;&#30340;&#24847;&#21619;&#29978;&#27987;&#12290; Due to historical and practical reasons, the hostility between India and Pakistan has been unable to complete digestion, and in the field of national defense, very strong front relative to the mean. &#22914;&#26524;&#35828;&#22312;&#38470;&#20891;&#21644;&#31354;&#20891;&#39046;&#22495;&#65292;&#20004;&#22269;&#31639;&#26159;&#21508;&#26377;&#21315;&#31179;&#30340;&#35805;&#65292;&#37027;&#20040;&#22312;&#28023;&#20891;&#39046;&#22495;&#65292;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#20173;&#33853;&#21518;&#19981;&#23569;&#12290; If in the Army and Air Force field, the two regarded each has its advantages, then the field in the Navy, Pakistan still lags behind a lot.

&#24471;&#30410;&#20110;&#36817;&#24180;&#25193;&#20805;&#30340;&#20891;&#36153;&#24320;&#25903;&#65292;&#21360;&#24230;&#28023;&#20891;&#27491;&#22312;&#25171;&#36896;3&#25903;&#33322;&#27597;&#32534;&#38431;&#12290; Benefit from the expansion of military spending in recent years, the Indian navy is building three aircraft carrier battle group. &#21453;&#35266;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#28023;&#20891;&#65292;&#36817;&#20960;&#24180;&#34429;&#20063;&#24320;&#22987;&#20174;&#32654;&#22269;&#33719;&#24471;&#20108;&#25163;&#30340;&#20329;&#37324;&#32423;&#25252;&#21355;&#33328;&#65292;&#24182;&#36890;&#36807;&#32852;&#21512;&#24314;&#36896;&#30340;&#27169;&#24335;&#65292;&#38470;&#32493;&#25509;&#25910;&#20013;&#22269;&#35774;&#35745;&#30340;&#26032;&#24335;F-22P&#21073;&#32423;&#25252;&#21355;&#33328;&#65292;&#20294;&#25972;&#20307;&#19978;&#20173;&#26159;&#19968;&#25903;&#20197;&#36817;&#28023;&#38450;&#24481;&#20026;&#20027;&#30340;&#20316;&#25112;&#21147;&#37327;&#65292;&#38754;&#23545;&#21360;&#24230;&#28023;&#20891;&#30340;&#24378;&#22823;&#21387;&#21147;&#65292;&#21046;&#34913;&#25163;&#27573;&#24456;&#26377;&#38480;&#12290; The other hand, Pakistan Navy, though in recent years have begun to second-hand from the United States, "Perry" class frigates built by the joint model, the design of new China in succession to receive F-22P "sword"-class frigates, but on the whole is still a support to combat forces based coastal defense, the face of strong pressure from the Indian Navy, checks and balances means are limited.

&#20026;&#20102;&#20196;&#23545;&#25163;&#26377;&#25152;&#39038;&#24524;&#65292;&#21892;&#20110;&#20197;&#23567;&#25615;&#22823;&#30340;&#24052;&#28023;&#20891;&#23558;&#30446;&#20809;&#32858;&#28966;&#20110;&#28508;&#33351;&#25112;&#21147;&#12290; Reluctant to opponent, good at the Pakistani Army's big eyes focused on the submarine warfare force. &#30446;&#21069;&#65292;&#24052;&#28508;&#33351;&#37096;&#38431;&#30340;&#20027;&#21147;&#20026;3&#33368;&#27861;&#21046;&#38463;&#25096;&#26031;&#22612;-90B&#22411;&#28508;&#33351;&#12290; Currently, the Pakistani submarine force for the three main legal "Agosta"-90B submarines. &#34429;&#28982;&#35813;&#33351;&#24615;&#33021;&#36739;&#20026;&#20808;&#36827;&#12289;&#21487;&#21457;&#23556;&#28508;&#23556;&#30340;&#39134;&#40060;&#21453;&#33328;&#23548;&#24377;&#19988;&#23433;&#35013;&#26377;&#24310;&#38271;&#28508;&#33322;&#26102;&#38388;&#30340;AIP&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#20294;&#33510;&#20110;&#25968;&#37327;&#26377;&#38480;&#65292;&#25112;&#26102;&#24456;&#38590;&#25511;&#21046;&#22823;&#38754;&#31215;&#28023;&#22495;&#12290; Although the performance of the boat is more advanced, capable of launching submarine of the "flying fish" anti-ship missiles and equipped with AIP systems to extend the time submerged, but suffer from a limited number of difficult to control large areas of sea in wartime. &#23588;&#20854;&#26159;&#22312;&#21360;&#24230;&#28023;&#20891;&#21363;&#23558;&#35013;&#22791;&#32654;&#21046;P-8I&#28023;&#31070;&#21453;&#28508;&#26426;&#65292;&#24182;&#35851;&#21010;&#25209;&#37327;&#36141;&#20080;&#21516;&#20026;&#27861;&#22269;&#21046;&#36896;&#20294;&#24615;&#33021;&#26356;&#20026;&#20808;&#36827;&#30340;&#40073;&#40060;&#32423;&#28508;&#33351;&#30340;&#24773;&#20917;&#19979;&#65292;&#24052;&#28023;&#20891;&#30456;&#23545;&#20110;&#21360;&#24230;&#30340;&#35013;&#22791;&#21155;&#21183;&#26356;&#36235;&#26126;&#26174;&#12290; Especially in the Indian Navy will equip American P-8I "Poseidon," anti-submarine aircraft, and plan for the bulk purchase of properties in France, but more advanced "Scorpene" class submarines in the case, the Pakistani military weakness relative to India, more equipment obvious.

&#20026;&#24212;&#23545;&#37051;&#22269;&#19981;&#26029;&#24378;&#22823;&#30340;&#28508;&#25112;-&#21453;&#28508;&#25112;&#21147;&#37327;&#65292;&#24052;&#28023;&#20891;&#30830;&#26377;&#25193;&#32534;&#28508;&#33351;&#37096;&#38431;&#30340;&#29616;&#23454;&#38656;&#27714;&#12290; In response to continued strong neighbors "hidden war - anti-submarine warfare" force, the Pakistani military does have expanded the practical needs of the submarine force. &#22914;&#26524;&#21360;&#24230;&#23186;&#20307;&#30340;&#25253;&#36947;&#23646;&#23454;&#65292;&#24052;&#28023;&#20891;&#26368;&#32456;&#25104;&#21151;&#24341;&#36827;6&#33368;&#20013;&#22269;&#21046;&#36896;&#30340;&#28508;&#33351;&#65292;&#37027;&#20040;&#24052;&#28023;&#20891;&#26410;&#26469;&#23558;&#25317;&#26377;&#36275;&#22815;&#30340;&#27700;&#19979;&#21453;&#21046;&#21147;&#37327;&#65292;&#20196;&#28508;&#22312;&#23545;&#25163;&#19981;&#25954;&#36731;&#20030;&#22916;&#21160;&#65292;&#21516;&#26102;&#20063;&#26377;&#21033;&#20110;&#38450;&#27490;&#35813;&#22320;&#21306;&#36731;&#36215;&#25112;&#31471;&#12290; If the Indian media reports are true, the ultimate success of the Pakistani Army in China to introduce six submarines, then the Pakistani Army will have enough water coming counter-forces, so that potential adversaries can not act rashly, but also help prevent the light from the war in the region end. &#65288;&#26469;&#28304;&#65306;&#22269;&#38469;&#22312;&#32447;-&#12298;&#19990;&#30028;&#26032;&#38395;&#25253;&#12299;&#65289; (Source: International Online - "News of the World") 

Google Translate

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## Dazzler

I like the name change for our model, instead of 041 Yuan, it is called 041 "META"


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## Pak_Sher

Pakistan needs to rapidly expand the Naval and Marine Force to counter all external threats. The U-214 submarine acquistion from Germany should also move along.


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## Zarvan

Which Chinees Sumbarine Pakistan Navy is looking forward to acquire?


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## wingzero

Great to hear Pakistan strengthening sea capability

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## Penguin

Zarvan said:


> Which Chinees Sumbarine Pakistan Navy is looking forward to acquire?


 
How about you read the preceeding part of this thread .....


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## Jinx1

Zarvan said:


> Which Chinees Sumbarine Pakistan Navy is looking forward to acquire?


 
Obviously nuclear submarines so that if India could have 5 by 2015, we would then have 7 by 2013


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## Pak_Sher

The submarine arm of the PN needs to be strengthened because Pakistan has a big coastal line and economi zone to defend. Submarines are more important @ the moment due to short, medium and long term challenges faced by Pakistan.


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## Manoj.pandey33

India need to work fast on submarines.


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## araz

Pak_Sher said:


> Pakistan needs to rapidly expand the Naval and Marine Force to counter all external threats. The U-214 submarine acquistion from Germany should also move along.


 
Sher sahib
Where is the money to acquire these subs from Germany. With Zardari at the helm, do you think anything will be preserved from him to apply to anything constructive. The other thing to note is that too much of anyhting is bad. PN can barely afford to run its current assets , howdo you think it will manage 9 more subs as indicated in you r posts. How many of the awam have to go without food for the navy to be strengthened.
Araz


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## monitor

If Pakistan wants to get coastal sub Pakistan have the option like andraAndrasta Coastal Submarine for Littoral Operations - Naval Technologysa class ,ula class Ula class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or any Chinese equivalent will not be so expensive within 500~600 million dollar you can get 5~6 of this type sub and gradually get other attack sub from other sources in addition to keep the current augtas running Pakistan can achieve a very deadly submarine force


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## Capt.Popeye

monitor said:


> If Pakistan wants to get coastal sub Pakistan have the option like andraAndrasta Coastal Submarine for Littoral Operations - Naval Technologysa class ,ula class Ula class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or any Chinese equivalent will not be so expensive within 500~600 million dollar you can get 5~6 of this type sub and gradually get other attack sub from other sources in addition to keep the current augtas running Pakistan can achieve a very deadly submarine force


 
All very good suggestions there.
The problem is that Pakistan is not in a position "to walk around the arms super-market and pick up items of choice from the shelves to fill the shopping basket". All these sales are tied to political considerations. And with the current situation, the sourcing options are reducing; witness how the U-214 talks wound up? or the French avionics for the Thunders?
So practically speaking, Pakistan has to look towards China for whatever hardware that is on offer. Even the follow-ons of the OHP class is now an open question.


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## monitor

Capt.Popeye said:


> All very good suggestions there.
> The problem is that Pakistan is not in a position "to walk around the arms super-market and pick up items of choice from the shelves to fill the shopping basket". All these sales are tied to political considerations. And with the current situation, the sourcing options are reducing; witness how the U-214 talks wound up? or the French avionics for the Thunders?
> So practically speaking, Pakistan has to look towards China for whatever hardware that is on offer. Even the follow-ons of the OHP class is now an open question.


 
Yea thats the problem for Pakistan other then financial .


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## SBD-3

Latest pix from the WuChang shipyard. Improved Yuan Version









Type 071 LPD at JN Shipyard

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## khurasaan1

I guess China is a best option for as.....we dont have to worry about anythingelse...Chinese tech is very good...and very reliable...Masha-Allah


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## EagleEyes

Does anyone mind posting the credible information on 041 Yuan and what changes are being made to the improved Yuan?


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## Obambam

Chinese subs are classy in its own right. Having surprised the US with the Kitty Hawk incident was good enough evidence that our Navy is not to be underestimated. Moreoever, The Yuen class is more advance than Type-039 Song Class.

I have an extract which I found to be a good read. It highlights some of the modern features and methods of noise reduction that took place in the Chinese naval developments:



> we don't know what the real noise levels of the subs are. In peacetime, you like to keep that from potential gatherers, so you will need to obscure your real signature, even if it has to use noise generators. Personally I don't think they are as quiet as the latest Western sub designs, but nonetheless* they are featuring some modern quieting features such as closed limber holes, anecholic tiles and skewed propellers, so their technology level is right up to the LA-Akula class of boats.* Personally I must also add that* Chinese subs appeared to have improved rather late---2004 is the crucial year*. That is why they are all of sudden in a major build surge starting only from that year. Previous to that year, their designs have been hit and miss, testbeds with issues that need working out. The discovery of the Yuan was a major surprise for everyone in that year, since it has become questionable that the production and movement of the subs can be tracked.
> 
> *Soviet subs have some noise issues that come from design decisions the Chinese are not sharing. For example, many Soviet subs have twin reactors, while US and everyone else submarines, including the Chinese, only have one. *(There is only US SSN ever to have two reactors). *Many Soviet subs also have two propellers and still kept that arrangement when US subs have shifted from two propellers to a single one* (despite Rickover's objection).
> 
> *So when you have two reactors, two reduction gears, two driving shafts and two props, you will make at least double the noise compared to a set up where you only have one of each. The Chinese nuclear subs don't have these issues; they all use single reactors, single prop arrangements, even with the Han and Xia class*. If it is true that *the 093 and 094 class have turbine electric drive (an idea the French used with their nuclear subs), by all means expect to be a bit more quiet since they removed one noise making factor and that is the gearbox. Do note the considerable French flavor in the PLAN development in other fields*.
> 
> *Lets compare the Songs and the Yuans against the Kilos, for example. The Kilos, like many earlier and small conventional submarines, don't even passive low frequency flank sonars that are used for long range detection. But the Chinese had the foresight to add them to the Song and the Yuans.* The Russians never had passive flank sonars on a conventional until the first Lada class came out, so the Chinese actually beat them to it. *The latest Google Earth measurements put the Songs and Yuans right to the size levels of the Collins and Oyashio class, among the largest diesel boats built and size helps in making a sub quieter.* Frankly there is not a lot of diesel boats with passive flank sonars, because of space issues, and usually it is the few bigger diesel boats in the world that do. You also need to put your diving planes in the sail so the planes won't interfere with the flank sonars, which is one reason the Kilo is a bad design to put a set of flank sonars.
> 
> *In addition to that, by having more space in the Song and Yuans, there is more room for batteries, which means more electrical power for sensors and command centers, and more room for reloads.
> *

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## Abu Zolfiqar

excellent news for PN, and another sign of good cooperation between Pakistan and China


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## Mo12

Its amazing how a country with GDP of $200billion, is able to have so many subs and fighter jets.


Incredible. Never thought it will be economy reliable. But its working. So well done PN! and Pak.


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## khurasaan1

Mo12 said:


> Its amazing how a country with GDP of $200billion, is able to have so many subs and fighter jets.
> 
> 
> Incredible. Never thought it will be economy reliable. But its working. So well done PN! and Pak.


 
Alhamdolillah...yey subh Allah SBWT ka Karamm hah....

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## Saifullah Sani




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## SBD-3

WebMaster said:


> Does anyone mind posting the credible information on 041 Yuan and what changes are being made to the improved Yuan?


There are apparently 4 classes (some say 3 classes) 039/041 A B C and possibally D as well
Class A is was launched in 2004 and resembled Kilo Design
Class B is was launched in 2007 onwards and resembled Modern/Modified Kilo Design
Class C is was Revealed in 2010 and is more close to Russian Lada Class design 
This improved design has been speculated to feature a new sonar system, a new surveillance system (periscope, radar etc.), and a new weapon system (possibly vertically launched long-range AshM from its extended sail?). (Hui Tong)
In March 2007 Navy International reported that the Yuan class was fitted with an AIP system developed by the No.711 Research Institute

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## Jango

are the yingji missiles capable of being fired from these babies??


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## AHMED85

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> excellent news for PN, and another sign of good cooperation between Pakistan and China


 
Fear is NO Policy but for correction....
Surrender is NO Option......
&#1587;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1662;&#1729;&#1604;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;

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## AHMED85

nuclearpak said:


> are the yingji missiles capable of being fired from these babies??


 

Good questions.... but babies is not suitable for this coz this is technology..


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## Jango

can anybody please definitively tell me that what are we buying??....type 39 song or type 41 yuan....because china itself has only 7 yuan class....and we are buying at least 5 or 6!!

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------




AHMED85 said:


> Good questions.... but babies is not suitable for this coz this is technology..


 
these are pakistans war babies!!!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

AHMED85 said:


> Fear is NO Policy but for correction....
> Surrender is NO Option......
> &#1587;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1662;&#1729;&#1604;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;


 
isnt that what is says


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## applesauce

nuclearpak said:


> can anybody please definitively tell me that what are we buying??....type 39 song or type 41 yuan....because china itself has only 7 yuan class....and we are buying at least 5 or 6!!




you know if pakistan buys six they arnt gonna send them from plan stock... it doesnt matter how many china has its how many china can build and how quickly


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## Jango

but surely the chinese have more requirment than pakistan...thats what i meant.


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## PakShaheen79

Yuan
====
As the next generation of Chinese SSG, the first boat of this class (330? Type 039A) was launched on May 31, 2004 at Wuhan Shipyard. Its design appears to have drawn some features from both 039G and Kilo. The submarine has a 039G style sail with diving planes. However a raised "hump" on top of the teardrop shaped hull clearly suggests a Kilo influence. Its displacement has been estimated to be 3,600t dived. In addition to a diesel engine, an AIP system based on Stirling engine technology is thought to have been fitted to extend its endurance while being submerged. *Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines therefore much difficult to be tracked. Like 039G, 039A is also capable of launching YJ-82 AShMs, besides 533mm wire-guided torpedos (Yu-6) from 6 forward tubes at the stern. *The emergence of 039A in such a short period of time after the starting of series production of Song class SSG came to a surprise to the US intelligence community and a Yuan designation was quickly assigned by the Pentagon. Together with Type 093, Song and Kilo class submaines, Yuan class could pose a credible force to counter US and Taiwanese naval forces. The first 039A completed the sea trial in 2005. The delay in the construction of the 2nd Yuan class suggested that the design had suffered certain technical problems. The construction of Yuan class resumed probably in 2006 and two boats were built in 2007. The second boat (331?) compeleted her sea trial and entered the service. This new boat has been installed with flank sonar arrays. The third boat was seen arriving in Shanghai in May 2008. The latest images (December 2010) indicated that the 4th & 5th 039As were just launched alongside a further improved design (Type 039B?) at Wuhan Shipyard (see Below)

Improved Yuan
-------------

The first boat of a much improved Yuan class (Type 039B?) was just launched at Wuhan Shipyard on September 9, 2010.* This class has been speculated to feature a new sonar system (flank sonar arrays?), a new surveillance and targeting system (periscope, radar etc.), and a new weapon system (possibly long-range AshM launched from torpedo tubes).* The submarine also adopts some advance features learned from the Russian 636 class design, such as the hull mounted retractable foreplanes. The sail appears wider but more hydrodynamically streamlined and stretched compared to that of 039A which might house a short-range SAM system for self-protection against slow-moving ASW aircraft. Its submerged displayment might have been increased to 4,200t. As the result its noise level is expected to have been further reduced. However there is no indication that 039B carries a towed array sonar. The overall performance of the improved Yuan (may be assigned a new class name by the west in the future) is thought to be comparable to the latest Japanese Soryu class SSG. 

Chinese Navy


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## Pak_Sher

Pakistan also needs to start manufacturing midget and smaller submarines. Technical know how from operating and manufacturing of Western submarines should be put to the table for local prototypes. Iran also has manufactured smaller submarines and we can also approach them for joint ventures.


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## Obambam

nuclearpak said:


> can anybody please definitively tell me that what are we buying??....type 39 song or type 41 yuan....because china itself has only 7 yuan class....and we are buying at least 5 or 6!!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> these are pakistans war babies!!!


 
They are Pakistan's guardians


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## Obambam

nuclearpak said:


> but surely the chinese have more requirment than pakistan...thats what i meant.


 
Yep it is unlikely for China to Send Pakistan old stock. It would be built to Pakistan's specification. It will also be part from China and part built in Pakistan. This allows for technological transfer just like what happened with the F-22P frigates.

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## muse

I think it would be useful to think in terms of JFT, when we think of this project - Yuan is a departure point, not destination.


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## khurasaan1

ok...soundz kool...about this joint venture....nice collaboration...


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## SBD-3

I dont think its a ToPT. The news that i went through a while ago was that China would be building most of these subs in China and later subs (2?) would be assembled in Pakistan to allow PN engneers to gether knowhow. Btw PN's requirments and budget doesnt allow for continued induction as PLAN. So there is little need for ToPT since Subs are not inducted every month.

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## fatman17

*Improved Yuan * update... 

The first boat of a much improved Yuan class (Type 039B?) was launched at Wuhan Shipyard on September 9, 2010. This class was speculated to feature a new sonar system (flank sonar arrays?), a new surveillance and targeting system (periscope, radar etc.), and a new weapon system (possibly long-range AshM launched from torpedo tubes). However there is no indication that it carries a towed array sonar. The submarine also borrows some experience learned from the Russian Type 636 design, such as the hull mounted retractable foreplanes. The most noticeable feature is a new sail which appears larger in length and width as well as more hydrodynamically streamlined compared to that of 039A. As indicated by a detachable compartment in the mid-section of the sail, it may house an integrated submarine escape system. One image suggests there is a bulge at the bottom of the boat in the mid-section. Spectulations were that it could house a single SLBM launch tube extending from the bulge all the way to the top of the sail, a design similar to Russian Golf class SSB. Therefore this particular boat has been speculated to be an SLBM experiment submarine to replace the vintage Golf class SSB still in service with PLAN. As the result its submerged displayment may have been increased to 4,200t. However this theory may turn out to be false if additional boats are built in the future. The improved Yuan class (may be assigned a new class name by the west in the future) sailed to a naval base in Shanghai in May 2011 is currently awaiting for its sea trial. 
- Last Updated 5/22/11

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## Dazzler

Yuan is likely to be inducted before IN Scorpene, will prove advantageous for PN as it will be operating two versions of AIP equipped subs. Specifications were sent to China a while ago and PN version (type 41 as they call it) should be more capable than Scorpene on paper at least, already a generation ahead of Agosta-90bs. One of the requirements is 650 mm missile tubes in order to launch CMs!

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/98561-modern-submarine-designs.html

guys , you might find this thread interesting

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## lem34

Dont know much about subs but I think Pakistan should have subs lots of them and is it possible they could carry some nukes that would be cool too.


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## TOPGUN

I sure hope we get these given the current saga in the nation who knows..


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## maverick1977

There are a lot of pages to go over, briefly, anyone, couple of questions..

1) When was the order placed? total cost and if ToT, how many will be build in China and how many in Pakistan
2) specifications, like torpedo types? sonar, and electro spectrum analyzer which looks for magnetic waves, tube types, 533 and 633? ow many torpedos, how many CM's, total crew members? endurance and range and total depth.
3) delivery dates?


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## fatman17

maverick1977 said:


> There are a lot of pages to go over, briefly, anyone, couple of questions..
> 
> 1) When was the order placed? total cost and if ToT, how many will be build in China and how many in Pakistan
> 2) specifications, like torpedo types? sonar, and electro spectrum analyzer which looks for magnetic waves, tube types, 533 and 633? ow many torpedos, how many CM's, total crew members? endurance and range and total depth.
> 3) delivery dates?



The thread heading is misleading. so for only preliminary talks have taken place.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> The thread heading is misleading. so for only preliminary talks have taken place.


 
The title isn't misleading, because Pakistan is set to acquire new subs anyway. However, it is on the backburner as there is funding issue.


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## fatman17

penumbra said:


> The title isn't misleading, because Pakistan is set to acquire new subs anyway. However, it is on the backburner as there is funding issue.



as you wish?


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