# How can Pakistan Navy defend itself from Brahmos cruse missile ?



## monitor

_It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.

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## kaku1

monitor said:


> _It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
> How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.



Why US need to defend themselves form BrahMos?


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## isupportaap

monitor said:


> _It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
> How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.




not possible


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## AUSTERLITZ

Their surface fleet can't at the moment.But no one is relying on PN surface fleet to accomplish anything.The main actor for PN are the agosta 90B.

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## Rana Thakur

No-can-do Sir. Not unless the Chinese provide them with the cheaper copy version of Brahmos.


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## C130

Bornobus said:


> Its clear from the American analysis that even they don't have a reliable system to intercept Brahmos ...so...










i like to see a match between the two

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## C130

Bornobus said:


> Putin is also interested ...so may be in the playground of Black sea



i would pray that doesn't happen. it wouldn't just end with that.

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## drunken-monke

may be US can... But the question is can PN??


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## Rana Thakur

shaheenmissile said:


> with this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=571752249603630


Short range defense against supersonic missile?
It is not going to help sir, No way.
Highly impossible, but even if the gun is able to shoot the missile, the momentum of missile alone will destroy the vessel.

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## monitor

kaku1 said:


> Why US need to defend themselves form BrahMos?


who knows may be for Because of this person

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## Indian Patriot

C130 said:


> i like to see a match between the two



I think the weaponised laser is the latest USN defense mechanism.


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## Basel

C130 said:


> i like to see a match between the two



ESSM can intercept supersonic missiles even Phalnax-1B & above guns can engage supersonic missiles, it all depands on early detection and quick response.

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## shaheenmissile

Brahmos is a Russian copy paste missile and Russia had such a missile since 70s and US navy and other navies which Russia had enmity with are still there,not at the bottom of the sea.
So for those who think Brahmos copy paste missile is some doom machine for PN...Wake up.

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## Indian Patriot

shaheenmissile said:


> Brahmos is a Russian copy paste missile and Russia had such a missile since 70s and US navy and other navies which Russia had enmity with are still there,not at the bottom of the sea.
> So for those who think Brahmos copy paste missile is some doom machine for PN...Wake up.



USN is not PN.

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## kaku1

shaheenmissile said:


> Brahmos is a Russian copy paste missile and Russia had such a missile since 70s and US navy and other navies which Russia had enmity with are still there,not at the bottom of the sea.
> So for those who think Brahmos copy paste missile is some doom machine for PN...Wake up.



Okey. So, copy paste missile is not doom missile. Great Logic.


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## Indian_Patriot

PN what is that...half rusted ships and a few decent subs .
You guys should just scrap the PN and just have a coast guard..for all the good the PN is going to do you in a conflict. At least you would save a few dollars to plough back into your moribund economy.

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## Basel

Indian Patriot said:


> USN is not PN.



True, and if ever IN try to do that their whole feet would be destroyed by mighty USN.


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## shaheenmissile

kaku1 said:


> Okey. So, copy paste missile is not doom missile. Great Logic.


No,the logic is that the missile existed in 70s and back then US navy did not have lase and survived on CIWS.
PN has plenty of CIWS.

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## Basel

Indian_Patriot said:


> PN what is that...half rusted ships and a few decent subs .



PN rusted ships are nearly retired as most of armament is removed from them, new Ships PN have in use mostly now.


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## Indian Patriot

Basel said:


> True, and if ever IN try to do that their whole feet would be destroyed by mighty USN.



Comparison is between IN and PN. And IN does not need Brahmos to sink PN.


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## Indian_Patriot

Hey we know the US is big daddy, and likely to remain so for the forseaable future....therefore it is to our great comfort that they see us as an ally and are willing to let us use their bases for refuel and intelligence gathering as well as share next gen tech such as EMALS.


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## Indian Patriot

Indian_Patriot said:


> PN what is that...half rusted ships and a few decent subs .
> You guys should just scrap the PN and just have a coast guard..for all the good the PN is going to do you in a conflict. At least you would save a few dollars to plough back into your moribund economy.



Who are you Imposter?

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## Basel

Indian Patriot said:


> Comparison is between IN and PN. And IN does not need Brahmos to sink PN.



It will be not easy for IN to come close enough to PN ships to launch Brahmos, MKIs will have more chance of firing them then your IN ships.

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## gslv

There will be never be a full fledged war between India and Pak again so chill. Only border skirmish will happen. Only learning how to dodge bullets will do wonder.

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## Indian Patriot

Basel said:


> It will be not easy for IN to come close enough to PN ships to launch Brahmos, MKIs will have more chance of firing them then your IN ships.



Brahmos has a range of 300 km. And what exactly does PN have in its inventory?


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## SvenSvensonov

Rana Thakur said:


> Short range defense against supersonic missile?
> It is not going to help sir, No way.
> Highly impossible, but even if the gun is able to shoot the missile, the momentum of missile alone will destroy the vessel.



Short range-defense works - like Goalkeeper, so too do medium-range defenses like ESSM, the best are still long-ranged defenses like SM-6. Close-in Weapon Systems were designed to react fast to fast moving, maneuverable targets and have been proven able to down supersonic missiles.

We (the US) are transitioning to laser CIWS:







Our ESSM will suffice - ESSM Intercept of High-Diving Threat Proves Expanded Defensive Capability






Assuming you can get past SM-6 - Non-Standard: Navy SM-6 Kills Cruise Missiles Deep Inland « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

The US has experience and regularly downs supersonic missiles.






*GQM-163 Coyote*

*Specifications
Length* 5.62m (18 ft 5.2 in) (without booster), 9.56m (31 ft 4.2 in) (incl. booster)
*Diameter* 35 cm (13.8 in), booster: 46 cm (17.99 in)
*Propellant* Aerojet MARC-R-282 solid-fueled ducted rocket/ramjet engine
*Operational
range*
>222 km (120nm) circa 445km (240nm)
*Flight ceiling* 60,000 feet
*Flight altitude* Sea-skimming: 15 feet (cruise phase), 13ft (terminal phase)
*Boost time* Hercules MK 70 solid-fueled rocket
*Speed* Mach 3.0-4.0 at 35,000-60,000ft, Mach 2.5 at 13-15ft

Hell, we even used the Russian KH-31 as a target!











*MA-31*

*Specifications
Weight* 1,300 pounds (590 kg)
*Length* 15 ft (4.7 m)
*Diameter* 14.2 inches (360 mm)
*Engine* Solid fuel rocket in initial stage, ramjet for rest of trajectory
*Wingspan* 36 inches (910 mm)
*Operational
range*
31 mi (50 km)
*Speed* Mach 3.5

MA-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think we'll do just fine against Brahmos too.

*ALSO!!! For those wondering why the US would need to defend against Brahmos*!

Brahmos is a joint Indo-Russian project. Just because India wont use it against the US doesn't mean the Russians wont! Also, China has comparable systems - like the CX-1, so being able to defeat a Brahmos-type threat is important!

As for Pakistan, peace is still the best defense, but if that's not an option... well, they have options too.

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## Indian_Patriot

Indian Patriot said:


> Who are you Imposter?



We both can be Indian Patriots can't we?


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## kaku1

shaheenmissile said:


> No,the logic is that the missile existed in 70s and back then US navy did not have lase and survived on CIWS.
> PN has plenty of CIWS.


Amazing thought bro. When the Tomahawk flied first?


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## Basel

Indian Patriot said:


> Brahmos has a range of 300 km. And what exactly does PN have in its inventory?



PN ships will not go in areas where PAF can't provide proper air cover and PN P-3s, subs and PAF maritime strike package is responsible for making sure that IN dose not got into position from where they can launch brahmos. 

PN is also considering to install C-602s (400+ km range, PN already have coastal batteries) or similar system on its upcoming ships which will allow them to go after IN ships as they will be able to launch them without coming in range of IN's anti ship missiles.

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## kaku1

Basel said:


> PN ships will not go in areas where PAF can't provide proper air cover and PN P-3s, subs and PAF maritime strike package is responsible for making sure that IN dose not got into position from where they can launch brahmos.
> 
> PN is also considering to install C-602s (400+ km range, PN already have coastal batteries) or similar system on its upcoming ships which will allow them to go after IN ships as they will be able to launch them without coming in range of IN's anti ship missiles.


What about P-17A and P-15B?


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## Indian_Patriot

They only way to possibly neutralise a US carrier fleet is the Chinese approach of satellite guided DF-21s salvo fired. Or a suicidal sub captain might be able to disable a carrier if he gets lucky.


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## shaheenmissile

Bornobus said:


> No in 70s Indian navy had these
> 
> P-15_Termit
> 
> Which ate PNS khaibar and Shah jahan alive and it wasn't even supersonic


You cannot compare PN of 1971 and now.. Its a different beast now.


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## Basel

SvenSvensonov said:


> Highly impossible??? You know the US shoots down supersonic missiles regularly... right?
> 
> Our ESSM will suffice too - ESSM Intercept of High-Diving Threat Proves Expanded Defensive Capability
> 
> View attachment 197751
> 
> 
> *GQM-163 Coyote*
> 
> *Specifications
> Length* 5.62m (18 ft 5.2 in) (without booster), 9.56m (31 ft 4.2 in) (incl. booster)
> *Diameter* 35 cm (13.8 in), booster: 46 cm (17.99 in)
> *Propellant* Aerojet MARC-R-282 solid-fueled ducted rocket/ramjet engine
> *Operational
> range*
> >222 km (120nm) circa 445km (240nm) [1]
> *Flight ceiling* 60,000 feet
> *Flight altitude* Sea-skimming: 15 feet (cruise phase), 13ft (terminal phase)
> *Boost time* Hercules MK 70 solid-fueled rocket
> *Speed* Mach 3.0-4.0 at 35,000-60,000ft, Mach 2.5 at 13-15ft
> 
> Hell, we even used the Russian KH-31 as a target!
> 
> View attachment 197753
> 
> 
> View attachment 197754
> 
> 
> *MA-31*
> 
> *Specifications
> Weight* 1,300 pounds (590 kg)
> *Length* 15 ft (4.7 m)
> *Diameter* 14.2 inches (360 mm)
> *Engine* Solid fuel rocket in initial stage, ramjet for rest of trajectory
> *Wingspan* 36 inches (910 mm)
> *Operational
> range*
> 31 mi (50 km)
> *Speed* Mach 3.5
> 
> MA-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I think we'll do just fine against Brahmos too.



Yes you do because USSR had supersonic anti ship missiles since long and USN had to come up with solution to defend it CBGs from them so nothing special in Brahmos for USN.



kaku1 said:


> What about P-17A and P-15B?



How much far their SAMs can hit targets, that is very important as PAF & PN combined will go after them with standoff weapons.


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## shaheenmissile

Indian Patriot said:


> Brahmos has a range of 300 km. And what exactly does PN have in its inventory?


this


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## Indian_Patriot

shaheenmissile said:


> this



. 

Brahmos has many modes of attack from top-strike to S-bend and other manoeuvres seconds before impact. No chance try again.

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## kaku1

Basel said:


> How much far their SAMs can hit targets, that is very important as PAF & PN combined will go after them with standoff weapons.


Umm, Nirbhay. BrahMos-2 and Barak-8 ER.



shaheenmissile said:


> this



So there is no CIWS on Indian Ships?


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## Indian_Patriot

Barak-8ER will be our SM class of missile equivalent. Very very sophisticated and powerful air-defence missiles with 100 km+ range.


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## Basel

kaku1 said:


> Umm, Nirbhay. BrahMos-2 and Barak-8 ER.



you think Nirbhay and Brahmos are SAMs??


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## Indian Patriot

Indian_Patriot said:


> We both can be Indian Patriots can't we?



Stop trolling me you imposter.


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## shaheenmissile

Indian_Patriot said:


> .
> 
> Brahmos has many modes of attack from top-strike to S-bend and other manoeuvres seconds before impact. No chance try again.


well this gun is not designed to shoot chicken..it is for missiles and designers knew about these standard maneuvers of most anti ship missiles...not just Brahmos


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## kaku1

Basel said:


> you think Nirbhay and Brahmos are SAMs??


I am giving you whole wep package of P-15B and P-17A,, the Nirbhay going to be a minimum range of 1000 Km. Going to be easy to target Karachi from our own backyard.


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## Indian_Patriot

Indian Patriot said:


> Stop trolling me you imposter.



Trolling how? 



shaheenmissile said:


> well this gun is not designed to shoot chicken..it is for missiles and designers knew about these standard maneuvers of most anti ship missiles...not just Brahmos



It might as well have been designed to shoot chickens for all the good its going to do you in a salvo launched Brahmos missile attack.

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## Indian Patriot

Basel said:


> PN ships will not go in areas where PAF can't provide proper air cover and PN P-3s, subs and PAF maritime strike package is responsible for making sure that IN dose not got into position from where they can launch brahmos.
> 
> PN is also considering to install C-602s (400+ km range, PN already have coastal batteries) or similar system on its upcoming ships which will allow them to go after IN ships as they will be able to launch them without coming in range of IN's anti ship missiles.



And the IN aircraft carrier is for show? LOL!! IN will take the fight to Pakistan. PN will always be fighting a defensive war.

Brahmos is anti-ship not land-attack. Nirbhay with a range of 1500 km is for that role. By the time you induct C-602 IN will induct Brahmos-2. PN cannot match IN in at least another 20 years. PN frigates weigh 2,200 tonnes. IN Shivalik class is 6,000 tonne.


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## shaheenmissile

kaku1 said:


> I am giving you whole wep package of P-15B and P-17A,, the Nirbhay going to be a minimum range of 1000 Km. Going to be easy to target Karachi from our own backyard.


also mention the other side of "Package"
fire on submarines...sailors dying...submarine sinking in port


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## Basel

kaku1 said:


> I am giving you whole wep package of P-15B and P-17A,, the Nirbhay going to be a minimum range of 1000 Km. Going to be easy to target Karachi from our own backyard.



And you think PN has not updated its defenses against air threats? PAF have ZDKs deployed over coastal areas to track ships and air activity during hostile time so CMs like nirbhay will find it very hard to by pass radar and other sensor.


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## Indian Patriot

shaheenmissile said:


> this



Like a CIWS can stop a supersonic missile.



Basel said:


> And you think PN has not updated its defenses against air threats? PAF have ZDKs deployed over coastal areas to track ships and air activity during hostile time so CMs like nirbhay will find it very hard to by pass radar and other sensor.



You can even detect a ballistic missile, WHAT are you going to shoot it down with?


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## Indian_Patriot

The AIP Agosta 90Bs are the only serious threat from PN. But you can't have all three on station at all times. There will usually be only 1 on station at any one time and in a conflict 2. We can handle 2 measly subs.


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## Basel

Indian Patriot said:


> And the IN aircraft carrier is for show? LOL!! IN will take the fight to Pakistan. PN will always be fighting a defensive war.
> 
> Brahmos is anti-ship not land-attack. Nirbhay with a range of 1500 km is for that role. By the time you induct C-602 IN will induct Brahmos-2. PN cannot match IN in at least another 20 years. PN frigates weigh 2,200 tonnes. IN Shivalik class is 6,000 tonne.



Don't tell me about PN ships I have visited F-22P and discussed that topic which the thread is about and they say that Indian Brahmos is 500km missile and we have done our home work against it. PN and PAF will fight a NCW war so it will be not as easy as many Indian think.


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## kaku1

Basel said:


> And you think PN has not updated its defenses against air threats? PAF have ZDKs deployed over coastal areas to track ships and air activity during hostile time so CMs like nirbhay will find it very hard to by pass radar and other sensor.


Yeah, PN developed every kind of defense and offense. 

But poor Indian Navy, they are new to the world.


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## Basel

Indian_Patriot said:


> The AIP Agosta 90Bs are the only serious threat from PN. But you can't have all three on station at all times. There will usually be only 1 on station at any one time and in a conflict 2. We can handle 2 measly subs.



70Bs are extensively upgraded and they can fire Harpoons so PN can deploy them with P-3s with PAF support.



kaku1 said:


> Yeah, PN developed every kind of defense and offense.
> 
> But poor Indian Navy, they are new to the world.



very childish mind you have hope IN & IAF have many people like you.


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## kaku1

Basel said:


> 70Bs are extensively upgraded and they can fire Harpoons so PN can deploy them with P-3s with PAF support.
> 
> 
> 
> very childish mind you have hope IN & IAF have many people like you.


Lol, nope. But definitely they dont have like you too.


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## kaku1

@Basel Leave your nationalism, and for once read the whole thread. You definitely laugh.



shaheenmissile said:


> also mention the other side of "Package"
> fire on submarines...sailors dying...submarine sinking in port


I cant comment on that.


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## Indian_Patriot

Basel said:


> 70Bs are extensively upgraded and they can fire Harpoons so PN can deploy them with P-3s with PAF support.



So you feel confident that you can stop a salvo attack from Mach 3 Brahmos but we can't stop a 0.8 mach Harpoon. Hilarious.

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## nomi007

so when u are attacking


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## Indian_Patriot

after the US takes out your nukes.


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## shaheenmissile

Bornobus said:


> Accidents happens like Gayari Avalanche where 100 of your soldiers died.


Your pea sized brain cannot differentiate between a flood,avalanche,earthquake.....and fire on a sub because of bad workmanship,poor quality control and lack of professionalism.
Indian IQ is definitely low.

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## Indian Patriot

Basel said:


> Don't tell me about PN ships I have visited F-22P and discussed that topic which the thread is about and they say that Indian Brahmos is 500km missile and we have done our home work against it. PN and PAF will fight a NCW war so it will be not as easy as many Indian think.



2,200 tonnes is corvette class not frigate. And what air-defense systems are installed in the F-22P?


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## shaheenmissile

Indian Patriot said:


> 2,200 tonnes is corvette class not frigate. And what air-defense systems are installed in the F-22P?


fm 90n ...................



Bornobus said:


> says a person whose country can't even make motorcycle engine


You hatched today and started trolling today... Nice start

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## Basel

Indian Patriot said:


> Like a CIWS can stop a supersonic missile.
> 
> 
> 
> You can even detect a ballistic missile, WHAT are you going to shoot it down with?



LY-80E medium range SAMS system will also be deployed in Karachi with other point defense systems and all will work in NCW environment.


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## Saifullah Sani

*Pakistan Navy deploys Chinese C-602 cruise missile*

Frontline units of Pakistan Navy have been equipped with the C-602 anti-ship cruise missiles purchased from China, according to Kanwa Defense Review published by Andrei Chang, also known as Pinkov, a Canadian military analyst.

*Pakistan ordered about 120 C-602 anti-ship cruise missiles from China back in 2009*. The first batch of the missiles, enough to equip a company, were delivered in 2011. After personnel completed training on using the missiles, the Pakistani government said that the C-602s had already been deployed by frontline naval units. *The missiles were purchased to provide a countermeasure to India’s BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, which has a range of 290 kilometres.*​The anti-ship cruise missiles have an estimated range of 280 km with a speed of 0.8 mach. *The Kanwa Review said that the accuracy of the C-602 can be increased gradually if a deal is made between the two countries.* Pakistan is currently the only foreign operator of the C-602.

Pakistan Navy deploys Chinese C-602 cruise missile - thenews.com.pk

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## Basel

Indian_Patriot said:


> So you feel confident that you can stop a salvo attack from Mach 3 Brahmos but we can't stop a 0.8 mach Harpoon. Hilarious.



What is hilarious is your knowledge about Naval warfare and ego.


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## SHAMK9

Indian_Patriot said:


> after the US takes out your nukes.


...? waiting ever since we first got them


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## Indian Patriot

Basel said:


> What is hilarious is your knowledge about Naval warfare and ego.



4, just FOUR, missile boats ransacked karacchi harbor and not even a PN tug-boat was to be seen anywhere. Don't lecture about naval warfare when such an audacious attack takes place with 100% success and zero percent casualty.



Saifullah Sani said:


> *Pakistan Navy deploys Chinese C-602 cruise missile*
> 
> Frontline units of Pakistan Navy have been equipped with the C-602 anti-ship cruise missiles purchased from China, according to Kanwa Defense Review published by Andrei Chang, also known as Pinkov, a Canadian military analyst.
> 
> *Pakistan ordered about 120 C-602 anti-ship cruise missiles from China back in 2009*. The first batch of the missiles, enough to equip a company, were delivered in 2011. After personnel completed training on using the missiles, the Pakistani government said that the C-602s had already been deployed by frontline naval units. *The missiles were purchased to provide a countermeasure to India’s BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, which has a range of 290 kilometres.*​The anti-ship cruise missiles have an estimated range of 280 km with a speed of 0.8 mach. *The Kanwa Review said that the accuracy of the C-602 can be increased gradually if a deal is made between the two countries.* Pakistan is currently the only foreign operator of the C-602.
> 
> Pakistan Navy deploys Chinese C-602 cruise missile - thenews.com.pk



Lets wait till the deal is made. According to kanwa review of course.


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## Saifullah Sani

Indian Patriot said:


> 4, just FOUR, missile boats ransacked karacchi harbor and not even a PN tug-boat was to be seen anywhere. Don't lecture about naval warfare when such an audacious attack takes place with 100% success and zero percent casualty.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets wait till the deal is made. According to kanwa review of course.


read my post carefully



Saifullah Sani said:


> The first batch of the missiles, enough to equip a company, were delivered in 2011.

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## ares

Basel said:


> It will be not easy for IN to come close enough to PN ships to launch Brahmos, MKIs will have more chance of firing them then your IN ships.



*Why, what will stop them from coming close enough?*

In last naval war between India and Pakistan, Indian navy was was even able to sink, Pakistani Navy ships sitting in their harbors from a distance of 30 Kms..with their Styx missiles..and neither PAF or PN were able to even scratch these attacking ships.

This is but a 300 Km missile.

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## Sneaker

There is one sureshot solution with Pakistan. Don't go for war with India.

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## shaheenmissile

Sneaker said:


> There is one sureshot solution with Pakistan. Don't go for war with India.


Indians and their Bravado 



ares said:


> *Why, what will stop them from coming close enough?*
> 
> In last naval war between India and Pakistan, Indian navy was was even able to sink, Pakistani Navy ships sitting in their harbors from a distance of 30 Kms..with their Styx missiles..and neither PAF or PN were able to even scratch these attacking ships.
> 
> This is but a 300 Km missile.


Makes me wonder why they fitted IFR on these...

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## ares

shaheenmissile said:


> Indians and their Bravado
> 
> 
> Makes me wonder why they fitted IFR on these...



Perhaps have enough endurance, to save Pakistani ships from these.







Here is what, a single squadron PAF mirage 5 maritime strike aircraft are up against

11 IN Sea Harriers
45 IN Mig 29 Ks
1 Squadron of IAF Jaguar Maritime Strike aircrafts
40 Su 30 MKIs for especially built for Maritime Strike role.

In future PAF Mirage 5s maritime strike role will be taken over by JF-17s
Where as IN sea harriers will be replaced by Tejas MK2

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## OTTOMAN

No one in Pakistan navy or any where in Pakistan care about Brahmos or its being cruise or not!


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## shaheenmissile

ares said:


> Perhaps have enough endurance, to save Pakistani ships from these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what, a single squadron PAF mirage 5 maritime strike aircraft are up against
> 
> 11 IN Sea Harriers
> 45 IN Mig 29 Ks
> 1 Squadron of IAF Jaguar Maritime Strike aircrafts
> 40 Su 30 MKIs for especially built for Maritime Strike role.
> 
> In future PAF Mirage 5s maritime strike role will be taken over by JF-17s
> Where as IN sea harriers will be replaced by Tejas MK2


All Naval exercises are carried out taking that into account.
Why do you think Pakistan has more Maritime patrol and AWACS aircrafts than India?


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## ares

shaheenmissile said:


> All Naval exercises are carried out taking that into account.
> Why do you think Pakistan has more Maritime patrol and AWACS aircrafts than India?



Pakistan does not have more maritime patrol aircrafts than India

*Indian Navy has*

8 Tu 142.
5 IL 38s
8 P-8Is (12 more will be ordered)
32 Dornier 228s

*Pakistan Navy has *

7 P-3C Orions( Of 10 P3C ordered, 1 crashed, 2 were destroyed)
2 Atlantiques

As far as Awacs are concerned

*PAF has *

4 ZDK 03s
PAF had ordered 4 Erieyes..one was destroyed and two were badly damaged(have those been repaired?)

*Where as IAF*

3 Phalcons(about to order 2 more)
3 Embraer AWACS on order.

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## shaheenmissile

ares said:


> Pakistan does not have more maritime patrol aircrafts than India
> 
> *Indian Navy has*
> 
> 8 Tu 142.
> 5 IL 38s
> 8 P-8Is (12 more will be ordered)
> 32 Dornier 228s
> 
> *Pakistan Navy has *
> 
> 7 P-3C Orions( Of 10 P3C ordered, 1 crashed, 2 were destroyed)
> 2 Atlantiques
> 
> As far as Awacs are concerned
> 
> *PAF has *
> 
> 4 ZDK 03s
> PAF had ordered 4 Erieyes..one was destroyed and two were badly damaged(have those been repaired?)
> 
> *Where as IAF*
> 
> 3 Phalcons(about to order 2 more)
> 3 Embraer AWACS on order.


The TU-142 are very old to add any value.
Dornier 228 is designated Muti purpose by Indian Navy,not Maritime patrol.
The only valuable asst here are the P-8i

Pakistan navy has 7 Re-fitted modernized P-3C orions and large fleet of Drones.

Compared to How much shoreline India has,Pakistan has a very small shoreline to worry about.
India has 7000 Km of mainland Coast line and if you add Andaman and Nicobar in the equation it blows out of proportions.

Pakistan only has 1200 Km of Coastline to worry about and 7 Orions are more than enough.


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## ares

shaheenmissile said:


> The TU-142 are very old to add any value.
> Dornier 228 is designated Muti purpose by Indian Navy,not Maritime patrol.
> The only valuable asst here are the P-8i
> 
> Pakistan navy has 7 Re-fitted modernized P-3C orions and large fleet of Drones.
> 
> Compared to How much shoreline India has,Pakistan has a very small shoreline to worry about.
> India has 7000 Km of mainland Coast line and if you add Andaman and Nicobar in the equation it blows out of proportions.
> 
> Pakistan only has 1200 Km of Coastline to worry about and 7 Orions are more than enough.



TU 142 entered service 1988, your Atlantiques were delivered in 1976, yet 2 remain in service. Even your first 3 P3 were ordered in 1988, and rest of your P-3Cs are actually second hand upgraded P-3Bs . Tu 142 have been upgraded to extend their service life by 16 years and are to be integrated with Brahmos missile.

IL 38 have been upgraded with sea dragon suites.

Indian Navy Dornier 228 are being fitted with Elta EL/M-2022A (V3) radars for maritime surveillance, yes they do not carry any weapons, but they can instrumental in tracking the movement of Pakistani Naval fleet..can relay the coordinates to to call in a air strike.

It was ICG Do-228 equipped with MEL radar, that searched and tracked Pakistani boat, which was destroyed on Dec 31. 

With regards big coast line, in case a war , India does not need to keep tabs on entire coast line, but just keep track of movements of Pakistani surface and submarine fleet.(which is not that big to begin with)

*Regardless, your assumption of Pakistan maintaining a bigger maritime surveillance fleet than India is false.*

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## shaheenmissile

^^ Yaeh the Wooden wooden boat which was Chased for an hour by Indian navy war ship 
Bollywood Navy with lots of Dramay.


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## ares

shaheenmissile said:


> ^^ Yaeh the Wooden wooden boat which was Chased for an hour by Indian navy war ship
> Bollywood Navy with lots of Dramay.



Looks like you do not have any more relevant points to debate, therefore moved on to pointless banter.

*My point was it was ICG Dornier 228, equipped with maritime surveillance radar, which was tasked with searching and tracking the Pakistani boat..and thats what it did.*

It was ICG and not Indian Navy ,which chased the wooden boat.

Had you been ever been out to sea, you would know, it takes hours for one ship to catch up with another, even when they are visible to each other by naked eye.

Out at sea under condition normal visibility..a small boat becomes visible at range of 15 NM at most.

Supposedly both the ships see each other at same time and are moving in the same direction they are separated by a distance of 15 NM.

Even if ICG ship was doing 25 knots and small fishing boat can do 15 knots ..it will take more that one and half hours to catch with the boat.


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## SQ8

Simple, put about 4 more CIWS per ship and you have a hail of bullets nothing is going to get by that easy.


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## SvenSvensonov

Oscar said:


> Simple, put about 4 more CIWS per ship and you have a hail of bullets nothing is going to get by that easy.














F*** Yeah!!!

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## SQ8

SvenSvensonov said:


> View attachment 197831
> 
> 
> View attachment 197832
> 
> 
> F*** Yeah!!!



Did you know, that the Arabian sea does have a fairly large population of Sharks. So it could be done, only if we could figure out the laser beams part and hire some Mullahs to get in the water and preach war to sharks. It could be done. Perhaps the United States should provide some FMF on this.

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## AMDR

PN should ask China if they can export and install the FL-3000N on their frigates and such. 11 missiles per launcher with which they can counter subsonic and supersonic maneuvering ASCMs. The American version is designated RIM-116 RAM and has been highly successful in testing since its induction in the early 90s. 

*Chinese Version*









*US Version








*

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## AMCA

shaheenmissile said:


> with this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=571752249603630



BRAHMOS moves faster than a bullet when it is gonna hit. You seem to counter something that fast with this?? You would only know BRAHMOS after the Ship is Hit..


Even the US does not have a reliable counter against BRAHMOS, Pakistani Navy is after all just a Joke


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## shaheenmissile

AMCA said:


> BRAHMOS moves faster than a bullet when it is gonna hit. You seem to counter something that fast with this?? You would only know BRAHMOS after the Ship is Hit..
> 
> 
> Even the US does not have a reliable counter against BRAHMOS, Pakistani Navy is after all just a Joke


well joke or not. our subs dont sink in harbour after an explosion


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## AMCA

shaheenmissile said:


> well joke or not. our subs dont sink in harbour after an explosion



Of course they don't. INS Rajput is not around. If you know what I mean.. Lol

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## MilSpec

shaheenmissile said:


> Brahmos is a Russian copy paste missile and Russia had such a missile since 70s and US navy and other navies which Russia had enmity with are still there,not at the bottom of the sea.
> So for those who think Brahmos copy paste missile is some doom machine for PN...Wake up.


 P800 Oniks missile itself was deployed in 2002.... Which missile do you think this is based off?

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## ni8mare

Basel said:


> And you think PN has not updated its defenses against air threats? PAF have ZDKs deployed over coastal areas to track ships and air activity during hostile time so CMs like nirbhay will find it very hard to by pass radar and other sensor.


some how india will not able to detect cruise missile and shoot it down...................but some how i don't know somehow pn can


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## Indian Patriot

The Pakistanis are trolling and even they know it. One poster commented that their frigates are good. A 2,200 tonnes frigate will be BADLY outclassed by a 6,000 tonne frigate. Pakistani ships lack proper air defense systems. They have nothing of the caliber of Barak 1 and Barak 8. I don't even know about their destroyers, tonnage and weapon systems. IN Delhi class destroyers pack more power than any PN frigate fleet. 

If there is one area where India enjoys an overwhelming superiority over Pakistan it is in naval warfare. The P-8 Poseidons are the best in the world when it comes to maritime surveillance. IN already has 8 and more are to come. Then the carrier strike fleet. Then the DDG fleet, then the Scorpene submarines, and lastly the nuclear submarines. 

Indian Navy has an undeniable qualitative and quantitative superiority over Pakistan Navy.

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## alpha q

shaheenmissile said:


> with this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=571752249603630


Lol, brahmos koi helicopter nahi hai ki guns se uda doge, supersonic missile hai.


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## Pomegranate

monitor said:


> * how can Pakistan navy defend itself from Brahmos cruse missile ? *



*Let me tell you one thing my friend when the War would begin it wont matter if you have brahmos or something else of Russian origin or even if you are biggest arm importer of the world which pakistan is not, we are proud that we do not import or being labeled as biggest arm importer .. what would matter in war is thousands of nuclear missiles flying over your heads and destroying everything. and pakistan has got covered that part very well *

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## alpha q

shaheenmissile said:


> Brahmos is a Russian copy paste missile and Russia had such a missile since 70s and US navy and other navies which Russia had enmity with are still there,not at the bottom of the sea.
> So for those who think Brahmos copy paste missile is some doom machine for PN...Wake up.


Thread is not about how US can defend against brahmos, its about ho PN can defend against it, and simple answer is no, pn cant defend against brahmos.


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## Truth Finder

"Aalim Oscar _Bhopali"-_ are your ancestors from Bhopal or awadh? #justasking @Oscar

BTW, I know a funny story about Bhopalis. I thought you are a Lucknowi (awadhi).


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## Indian Patriot

Pomegranate said:


> *Let me tell you one thing my friend when the War would begin it wont matter if you have brahmos or something else of Russian origin or even if you are biggest arm importer of the world which pakistan is not, we are proud that we do not import or being labeled as biggest arm importer .. what would matter in war is thousands of nuclear missiles flying over your heads and destroying everything. and pakistan has got covered that part very well *



You are too full on rhetoric.

First, Pakistan DOES import. Indian self-made goods are more in quantity. India at least makes her own ships. Pakistan has to import and manufacture under license. You are not the world's largest importer because of economic constraints. 

Second, Pakistan does NOT have thousands of missiles, let alone thousands of nuclear missiles. And no, nukes are not apples and watermelons to be thrown around like that. 

Third, Pakistan is already a pariah state. The last time Pakistan fought a war in 1999 even China turned her back. OBL was another massive diplomatic humiliation. Hillary Clinton's statement was the final nail in the coffin. Any future war by Pakistan means your country would be further isolated which indirectly would affect international loans which will affect Pakistani economy which in turn will affect Pakistanis like you.

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## monitor

Pomegranate said:


> *Let me tell you one thing my friend when the War would begin it wont matter if you have brahmos or something else of Russian origin or even if you are biggest arm importer of the world which pakistan is not, we are proud that we do not import or being labeled as biggest arm importer .. what would matter in war is thousands of nuclear missiles flying over your heads and destroying everything. and pakistan has got covered that part very well *




Matter is two firstly if you strike with nuclear missile India will do the same so nobody will win 
secondly whether India is importer of weapon or not it is not important until that weapons are working against Pakistan .
so far right at this moment and probably foreseeable future Indian Nay having upper hand against your Navy . they have the chance to launch roughly 24 brahmos cruse missile at a time from 300 km/500 range with 384(24ship*16 missile) on inventory.
you need to find out the ways how you can save you fleet from this rain of missile just from ship not forget they can be launch from SU-30mki and from sub too.
btw i am not Indian

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## Pomegranate

monitor said:


> Matter is two firstly if you strike with nuclear missile India will do the same so nobody will win
> secondly whether India is importer of weapon or not it is not important until that weapons are working against Pakistan .
> so far right at this moment and probably foreseeable future Indian Nay having upper hand against your Navy . they have the chance to launch roughly 24 brahmos cruse missile at a time from 300 km/500 range with 384(24ship*16 missile) on inventory.
> you need to find out the ways how you can save you fleet from this rain of missile just from ship not forget they can be launch from SU-30mki and from sub too.
> btw i am not Indian


You should first of all change your flag from Bangladesh to India ... you are indian not Bengladeshi ...second pakistan knows its limitations in war and wont show all the cards pakistan is not like india that would show its weapons to the world so that the enemies should prepare to counter them now i know you dont know much about pakistan now , but we hear that all the time from our generals that when war comes india would be surprised we have limitation , if we would show what we have got .. suddenly the whole world is threatened by us we dont want that .....so zip it my friend
You are from Bangladesh if you are than why dont you compare your tech with indian one or ours

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## A2Z

Indians need to stop worrying about how and what PN would do. When the time would come you guys will be more than satisfied by what was done to counter your massive navy equipped with BrahMos, aircraft carriers, jaguars, harriers, mig29s and what not. One thing that IN must do first is to find a way by which they can distinguish between friends and foes, by looking the performance of IN in most recent boat case I am quite sure you guys will fire BrahMos against your own ships.


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## PurpleButcher

The answer to the question is "*NO PN cannot defend itself against Brahamos*"

But the second question is "*Will IN be foolish enough to use it and not expect retaliation*" and the answer to this question is also "*NO*"

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## Pomegranate

Indian Patriot said:


> You are too full on rhetoric.
> 
> First, Pakistan DOES import. Indian self-made goods are more in quantity. India at least makes her own ships. Pakistan has to import and manufacture under license. You are not the world's largest importer because of economic constraints.
> 
> Second, Pakistan does NOT have thousands of missiles, let alone thousands of nuclear missiles. And no, nukes are not apples and watermelons to be thrown around like that.
> 
> Third, Pakistan is already a pariah state. The last time Pakistan fought a war in 1999 even China turned her back. OBL was another massive diplomatic humiliation. Hillary Clinton's statement was the final nail in the coffin. Any future war by Pakistan means your country would be further isolated which indirectly would affect international loans which will affect Pakistani economy which in turn will affect Pakistanis like you.


First of all in a war no body dives a damn what the international community would think ??? second pakistan cannot show its card as you said whole world will fell threatened you can read my last post here .. third we have got china by our side , and now our relationshins are good with Russia .. and than there are other states in the world with good money why are they not being labeled as biggest arm improter ?? it is not pride at all that is why your modi started a campaign for making it in india ?? if it was pride for you there would have been no such campaign at all .. and than you have mistaken pakistan with that of bangladesh we are not bangladesh where your bsf would kill few on border and there woudl be no reaction from other side ... pakistan is atom bomb by itlsef you interfer with it and you get destroyed
So zip it


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## Bang Galore

A2Z said:


> I.... by looking the performance of IN in most recent boat case I am quite sure you guys will fire BrahMos against your own ships.



Don't worry. our ships will carry the Barak 8, a system designed to deal with missiles like Brahmos.


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## Pomegranate

A2Z said:


> Indians need to stop worrying about how and what PN would do. When the time would come you guys will be more than satisfied by what was done to counter your massive navy equipped with BrahMos, aircraft carriers, jaguars, harriers, mig29s and what not. One thing that IN must do first is to find a way by which they can distinguish between friends and foes, by looking the performance of IN in most recent boat case I am quite sure you guys will fire BrahMos against your own ships.


Yep pakistan will never show its chips too early .... the world would feel threatened we are wise not fools where we would show to the world what technology we have got


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## Bornubus

India don't even need to fire a costly Brahmos on cheap Pak ships....other missiles like kh 31 and kh35 fired from mig 29k can do the same damage.



Pomegranate said:


> *Let me tell you one thing my friend when the War would begin it wont matter if you have brahmos or something else of Russian origin or even if you are biggest arm importer of the world which pakistan is not, we are proud that we do not import or being labeled as biggest arm importer .. what would matter in war is thousands of nuclear missiles flying over your heads and destroying everything. and pakistan has got covered that part very well *


You have just over 100 nukes not THOUSANDS and not even enough....considering the size and BMD of india

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## A2Z

Bang Galore said:


> Don't worry. our ships will carry the Barak 8, a system designed to deal with missiles like Brahmos.


Well then my advise would be to buy more of that systems because in case of a war the best weapon that PN posses is the IN navy itself. And who knows may be your planes start automatically ejecting the pilots, do you have some counter measures for that as well? some special king of parachutes?


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## Indian Patriot

Pomegranate said:


> First of all in a war no body dives a damn what the international community would think ???



Yea, thats why nawaz sarif was running to Washington to get US support. Pakistan survives on foreign aid, unless you want to become north korea your country will listen to international opinion. 



Pomegranate said:


> second pakistan cannot show its card as you said whole world will fell threatened you can read my last post here ..



Are you for real? What card are you talking about, if you have a card then show it to TTP who are controlling sizeable portion of Pakistan. Your country does not have any secret wonder weapons. 



Pomegranate said:


> third we have got china by our side , and now our relationshins are good with Russia ..



China did nothing in 1999 and be rest assured they won't do anything for you in your future wars. Every country looks after her own interests. The Chinese will not risk conflict with a nuclear state for the sake of Pakistan. 

And you must be over your head if you think Russia will fight for you against India.

Relations are based on benefits. Russia benefits from Indian market, what can pakistan offer Russia?



Pomegranate said:


> and than there are other states in the world with good money why are they not being labeled as biggest arm improter ??



Because they don't have to equip the world's 4th largest military. 



Pomegranate said:


> it is not pride at all that is why your modi started a campaign for making it in india ?? if it was pride for you there would have been no such campaign at all ..



You are a funny guy. Make in India is a proud campaign. Make in India is a call to Indian and foreign companies to set up a manufacturing hub in India because India has the potential. 

What negative did you see in that? 



Pomegranate said:


> and than you have mistaken pakistan with that of bangladesh we are not bangladesh where your bsf would kill few on border and there woudl be no reaction from other side ... pakistan is atom bomb by itlsef you interfer with it and you get destroyed
> So zip it



You are not bangladesh but you are no better either. But you are right, pakistan is an atom bomb whose fuse is lit and it can implode any day now. 

You are a keyboard fanatic who believes his theories are right. All your statements are based on assumptions which have no link with reality. You are hopeful that your claims will turn out right. So YOU zip it.


----------



## Trichy

PurpleButcher said:


> The answer to the question is "*NO PN cannot defend itself against Brahamos*"
> 
> But the second question is "*Will IN be foolish enough to use it and not expect retaliation*" and the answer to this question is also "*NO*"



After a salvo of attacks who going to attack IN? PN? its already under sea if its happen...*Retaliation from PAF? then Who going to Fight IAF? its same as 1 pakistani = 10 Indians.... simple as it... next war between IN & PN, PN wont survive the WAR...

anyways BEST OF LUCK for your thoughts never gona see the daylight of PN...*


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## Bang Galore

A2Z said:


> Well then my advise would be to buy more of that systems because in case of a war the best weapon that PN posses is the IN navy itself. And who knows may be your planes start automatically ejecting the pilots, do you have some counter measures for that as well? some special king of parachutes?




We are joint partners, we can build as many as we want..... btw, parachutes are standard for pilot ejections......


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## SrNair

US can defend Brahmos.But they will also face problems if that is a saturation attack.
PN wont have any chance .At current scenario they cant defend even a single Brahmos.
And a hypersonic version is already in development.


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## Pomegranate

Indian Patriot said:


> You are not bangladesh but you are no better either. But you are right, pakistan is an atom bomb whose fuse is lit and it can implode any day now.
> 
> You are a keyboard fanatic who believes his theories are right. All your statements are based on assumptions which have no link with reality. You are hopeful that your claims will turn out right. So YOU zip it.


Yea m fanati and you would be hero for india i am hopeful that you would lead your army ..... being over confidence is a good thing though .. it would be good when china would attack from one side and pakistan from other and i would tell you how brahmos would be peppered in small parts , AND THESE ARE NOT MY ASSUMPTION these are what i have heard from lots of army personnel to whom i have closed link and on media as well from analyst closed to military pakistan cannot show its chips ... the world would feel threatened this is the problem we cant do it right now


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## Bobby

Pomegranate said:


> Yep pakistan will never show its chips too early .... the world would feel threatened we are wise not fools where we would show to the world what technology we have got


have you got any chips

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## Pomegranate

Bobby said:


> have you got any chips


M hungry  do u want them ..... come to border i will throw them from this side


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## Indian Patriot

Pomegranate said:


> Yea m fanati and you would be hero for india i am hopeful that you would lead your army ..... being over confidence is a good thing though .. it would be good when china would attack from one side and pakistan from other and i would tell you how brahmos would be peppered in small parts , AND THESE ARE NOT MY ASSUMPTION these are what i have heard from lots of army personnel to whom i have closed link and on media as well from analyst closed to military pakistan cannot show its chips ... the world would feel threatened this is the problem we cant do it right now



I don't have to lead my army, there are enough competent officers in IA.

Why are you hiding behind China? ROFLOL!! And why do you think China will throw away her peace, prosperity and national goals to fight a nuclear war with India for the sake of pakistan? 

Don't come up with your talks with army personnel. This is common in Indians and Pakistanis, more among Pakistanis. Their uncle, uncle's friend, distant relative, blah blah blah is a senior officer in the military and they share secrets with civilian family members without any fear of court-martial. 

Half of your country is torn apart by civil war, whatever potato chips you have you better show them now. Pakistan does not have its own production capablity nor does it have a massive budget, so what chips you got?

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## Pomegranate

Indian Patriot said:


> I don't have to lead my army, there are enough competent officers in IA.
> 
> Why are you hiding behind China? ROFLOL!! And why do you think China will throw away her peace, prosperity and national goals to fight a nuclear war with India for the sake of pakistan?
> 
> Don't come up with your talks with army personnel. This is common in Indians and Pakistanis, more among Pakistanis. Their uncle, uncle's friend, distant relative, blah blah blah is a senior officer in the military and they share secrets with civilian family members without any fear of court-martial.
> 
> Half of your country is torn apart by civil war, whatever potato chips you have you better show them now. Pakistan does not have its own production capablity nor does it have a massive budget, so what chips you got?


precise it every time i cant read a book ..........


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## ruby007

Pomegranate said:


> Yea m fanati and you would be hero for india i am hopeful that you would lead your army ..... being over confidence is a good thing though .. it would be good when china would attack from one side and pakistan from other and i would tell you how brahmos would be peppered in small parts , AND THESE ARE NOT MY ASSUMPTION these are what i have heard from lots of army personnel to whom i have closed link and on media as well from analyst closed to military pakistan cannot show its chips ... the world would feel threatened this is the problem we cant do it right now



Stop talking like a kid.... China would never enter a war with India siding with Pakistan. China would only assist u with weapons... China is not in a possition to risk Billions of trade with India just to please the Pakistanis from whom China gets nothing.... 

Ya there're large amount of Pakistanis who worship Chinese to get in war tith them... thank god Chinese are not stupid as you

Between @Pomegranate Bring me a one Sane Chinese member from PDF who says China would enter your side to fight India..

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## Vanamali

Pomegranate said:


> *Let me tell you one thing my friend when the War would begin it wont matter if you have brahmos or something else of Russian origin or even if you are biggest arm importer of the world which pakistan is not, we are proud that we do not import or being labeled as biggest arm importer .. what would matter in war is thousands of nuclear missiles flying over your heads and destroying everything. and pakistan has got covered that part very well *




Wow what a gyan..... are you like this from you childhood or you got enlightment in between... hey new age prophet please preach your secret


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## Pomegranate

ruby007 said:


> Stop talking like a kid.... China would never enter a war with India siding with Pakistan. China would only assist u with weapons... China is not in a possition to risk Billions of trade with India just to please the Pakistanis from whom China gets nothing....
> 
> Ya there're large amount of Pakistanis who worship Chinese to get in war tith them... thank god Chinese are not stupid as you
> 
> Between @Pomegranate Bring me a one Sane Chinese member from PDF who says China would enter your side to fight India..


OK



Vanamali said:


> Wow what a gyan..... are you like this from you childhood or you got enlightment in between... hey new age prophet please preach your secret


trolling not working on me .... try on some one else


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## PurpleButcher

Trichy said:


> After a salvo of attacks who going to attack IN? PN? its already under sea if its happen...*Retaliation from PAF? then Who going to Fight IAF? its same as 1 pakistani = 10 Indians.... simple as it... next war between IN & PN, PN wont survive the WAR...
> 
> anyways BEST OF LUCK for your thoughts never gona see the daylight of PN...*



> I agree PN will be doomed
> I also agree that 1 ****= 10 bharti not gonna happen ever
> PAF will be damn busy itself
> but what about stopping ballistic and cruise missile from attacking your naval yards and other sensitive areas
> one on one yes you guys can beat the hell out of us... but you will also be so much ultimately injured that it will hurt you guys as well
> keeping in mind indians are more focused on economy i dont see any posibilty of such extreme use of force by india on a neighboring nuclear enemy
> you guys have more to lose
> And all these threads are nothing but d*** measuring contests... in real world no one is gonna fight each other,.... just proxy wars... thats all

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## Indian Patriot

Pomegranate said:


> precise it every time i cant read a book ..........



Not my problem. 

Its your fault you can't read a proper English paragraph.


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## Pomegranate

Indian Patriot said:


> Not my problem.
> 
> Its your fault you can't read a proper English paragraph.


Its an art to precise your statement you need to learn it , it is not about problems ... who can read 500 words posts every time



PurpleButcher said:


> > I agree PN will be doomed
> > I also agree that 1 ****= 10 bharti not gonna happen ever
> > PAF will be damn busy itself
> > but what about stopping ballistic and cruise missile from attacking your naval yards and other sensitive areas
> > one on one yes you guys can beat the hell out of us... but you will also be so much ultimately injured that it will hurt you guys as well
> > keeping in mind indians are more focused on economy i dont see any posibilty of such extreme use of force by india on a neighboring nuclear enemy
> > you guys have more to lose
> > And all these threads are nothing but d*** measuring contests... in real world no one is gonna fight each other,.... just proxy wars... thats all


Yep and pakistan will make sure that india would go back to stone age .........and we will let china to take the final blow ..


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## Indian Patriot

Pomegranate said:


> Its an art to precise your statement you need to learn it , it is not about problems ... who can read 500 words posts every time..



It's called BASIC EDUCATION to be able to read a sentence which you clearly lack. Instead of counting words, next time try and read them. 

P.S. - China is not your poodle to do your bidding.


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## Pomegranate

Indian Patriot said:


> It's called BASIC EDUCATION to be able to read a sentence which you clearly lack. Instead of counting words, next time try and read them.
> 
> P.S. - China is not your poodle to do your bidding.



china is our All weather friend and get thing is they happen to be your neighbor and foe as well ... buhahaha

Precise writing is art my friend learn it my last post on this thread ..... good luck to you


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## Indian Patriot

Pomegranate said:


> china is our All weather friend and get thing is they happen to be your neighbor and foe as well ... buhahaha
> 
> Precise writing is art my friend learn it my last post on this thread ..... good luck to you



You are a deluded kid.

NO Country will go to war against a nuclear country for the sake of another. All the people you know giving you "inside information" must have forgot to mention this to you.

You are a crybaby my friend, when you don't have any facts you pretend to be illiterate.

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## DeathInvader

It is inevitable that PN won't learn how to protect against Brahmos. For that we constantly have to upgrade our own NAVY. USN is the best Navy ever but even they know that someone will overpower them someday. Hence they keep their fleet updated so that someday doesn't come soon?


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## Danish saleem

First of all, we don't knew about the detect and hit capability of Bharamos for Moving Target, after leaving its cell.


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## ni8mare

PurpleButcher said:


> > I agree PN will be doomed
> > I also agree that 1 ****= 10 bharti not gonna happen ever
> > PAF will be damn busy itself
> >* but what about stopping ballistic and cruise missile from attacking your naval yards and other sensitive areas*
> > one on one yes you guys can beat the hell out of us... but you will also be so much ultimately injured that it will hurt you guys as well
> > keeping in mind indians are more focused on economy i dont see any posibilty of such extreme use of force by india on a neighboring nuclear enemy
> > you guys have more to lose
> > And all these threads are nothing but d*** measuring contests... in real world no one is gonna fight each other,.... just proxy wars... thats all





Basel said:


> And you think PN has not updated its defenses against air threats? PAF have* ZDKs deployed *over coastal areas *to track* ships and* air activity during hostile time so CMs like nirbhay will find it very hard to by pass radar and other sensor.*


now replace zdk with phalcon and nirbhay with babur..........that way we going counter the way you going counter



Danish saleem said:


> First of all, we don't knew about the detect and hit capability of Bharamos for Moving Target, after leaving its cell.


yes it can target moving one


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## SecularNationalist

Indian_Patriot said:


> PN what is that...half rusted ships and a few decent subs .
> You guys should just scrap the PN and just have a coast guard..for all the good the PN is going to do you in a conflict. At least you would save a few dollars to plough back into your moribund economy.


For being an indian patriot dear you don,t have to lower down your IQ and ignore the facts


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## Gessler

PN surface ships cannot defend against BrahMos. The targeted ships will sink. Plain and simple.

They do have some defences, but not anything geared to take on BrahMos/Yakhont/YJ-12 types. Maybe they
can get lucky and bring some down...we fire 10, they shoot down 1 or 2. But that's not an adequate defence.

But PN isn't really structured to take blows and give them back...their entire hope rests on their submarine
fleet. Surface capacities are a one-throw-of-the-die force. It doesn't really matter if they can defend against
BrahMos or not because they don't except the surface ships to really accomplish anything significant enough
to spend millions to defend each of them.

But to plainly answer the question : NO, Pak navy cannot defend against BrahMos. They can yammer on
for whatever they like but that's the hard fact.

--

The US Navy can indeed defend against BrahMos using present technologies, and that's about it. The lasers
& DEWs which would be the mainstay of the future don't even come into the picture because the BrahMos
we see today would be more than 40 years old by then - there will be Mach 7-8 missiles like BrahMos-II
that can cover the horizon in single-digit seconds. Weapons geared to deal with those threats would emerge
only by late 2030s or so. Which means in it's day, the BrahMos-II would be a far more relevant weapon
than what BrahMos-I is today.

It's because BrahMos is just a pepping-up of a 1980's Soviet missile technology. It does offer many new
capabilities that were never implemented before like supersonic steep-dive, but most of these are
relevant for ground-attack rather than anti-shipping roles.

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## aazar

I wonder if Pakistan feels any kind of threat from Russian missile which India claims to be home made. Pakistan has RAAD missile too which is also cruise missile. It is enough to destroy already sinking Indian naval fleet.

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## alimobin memon

Question


Gessler said:


> PN surface ships cannot defend against BrahMos. The targeted ships will sink. Plain and simple.
> 
> They do have some defences, but not anything geared to take on BrahMos/Yakhont/YJ-12 types. Maybe they
> can get lucky and bring some down...we fire 10, they shoot down 1 or 2. But that's not an adequate defence.
> 
> But PN isn't really structured to take blows and give them back...their entire hope rests on their submarine
> fleet. Surface capacities are a one-throw-of-the-die force. It doesn't really matter if they can defend against
> BrahMos or not because they don't except the surface ships to really accomplish anything significant enough
> to spend millions to defend each of them.
> 
> But to plainly answer the question : NO, Pak navy cannot defend against BrahMos. They can yammer on
> for whatever they like but that's the hard fact.
> 
> --
> 
> The US Navy can indeed defend against BrahMos using present technologies, and that's about it. The lasers
> & DEWs which would be the mainstay of the future don't even come into the picture because the BrahMos
> we see today would be more than 40 years old by then - there will be Mach 7-8 missiles like BrahMos-II
> that can cover the horizon in single-digit seconds. Weapons geared to deal with those threats would emerge
> only by late 2030s or so. Which means in it's day, the BrahMos-II would be a far more relevant weapon
> than what BrahMos-I is today.
> 
> It's because BrahMos is just a pepping-up of a 1980's Soviet missile technology. It does offer many new
> capabilities that were never implemented before like supersonic steep-dive, but most of these are
> relevant for ground-attack rather than anti-shipping roles.



Brahmos is not almighty it can be destroyed if not easily than at least their is probability above average. our ships have one of the best point defense CIWS Type 730B which are tested u can see them on live leak videos. Point defense is extremely underrated defense system which IMHO actually should be considered most reliable defense system for any ship. 
OK don't get me completely Anti brahmos. Brahmos will give Pakistan Navy very less chance IMHO max 10 seconds after it reaches the final stage which is after terminal stage. But for CIWS 10 seconds is a good time to reactive with at least 5-6 times burst shot. and these High RPM that is around 5000 R/MIN they can be devastating for any missile. 

For a walk through lets design a scenario. 
single F22p with 2 CIWS TYPE 730B ready for any attack. A Brahmos coming at it at the speed for lets say max 3 mach. Even if Type 730B has chance two fire 2 separate burst shots for 0.2 seconds. A single burst shots fire exactly 15+ rounds each of bore 30mm with kinectic energy at ~1100m/s the probablity of even a single 30 mm round hit could be greater than 70%. Now if 2 burst shots means 30 rounds. My point is the brahmos has one advantage that is enemy has less reaction time while Point defense has to act fastly. with todays Computing system it can be achieved by Ciws.

Further Brahmos uses sea skimming I am pretty sure with the weather and tides in sea the sea skimming altitude of 5m max could be less favorable in real time test so the missile will have to re adjust its momentum every second to prevent surface hit in sea. that will hamper its radar avoiding technique for repeatation. 
I am no scientist but My view to brahmos is that a cruise missile which has advantage one and only prospect that is given enemy less reaction time. 

PN has a better advantage too that is its CM 400 AKG for which currently there is no Defense system for INDIAN navy. Point defense can have but very very less reaction time than in scenario of Brahmos and pn ship point defense.

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## Indian Patriot

SecularNationalist said:


> For being an indian patriot dear you don,t have to lower down your IQ and ignore the facts



Which one are you referring to? There is me and there is an imposter of me posting with my copied name.

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## rockstar08

yes we can not defend our Ships against Barhamos , no one can stand again Mighty IN ... even USN will loose ...
we should request mods to open a separate section for Mentality retarded members here on PDF ... our Indian Guests need to be there , to inhale their own brain fart ...

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## Rana Thakur

SvenSvensonov said:


> *Short range-defense works - like Goalkeeper*, so too do medium-range defenses like ESSM, the best are still long-ranged defenses like SM-6. Close-in Weapon Systems were designed to react fast to fast moving, maneuverable targets and have been proven able to down supersonic missiles.
> 
> We (the US) are transitioning to laser CIWS:
> 
> 
> As for Pakistan, peace is still the best defense, but if that's not an option... well, they have options too.


Oh nice analysis. Except that you explained about other defense systems (which i didn't even mention) than short range. Hilarious.



rockstar08 said:


> yes we can not defend our Ships against Barhamos , no one can stand again Mighty IN ... even USN will loose ...
> we should request mods to open a separate section for Mentality retarded members here on PDF ... our Indian Guests need to be there , to inhale their own brain fart ...


This ain't fair. Vomiting $h!t after getting bTThurt is just not fair, although it's funny.

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## Agent_47

First PN have to get a credible ship based SAM against missiles like Club/harpoon/exocet.
Then we can talk about brahmos.

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## Basel

ares said:


> *Why, what will stop them from coming close enough?*
> 
> In last naval war between India and Pakistan, Indian navy was was even able to sink, Pakistani Navy ships sitting in their harbors from a distance of 30 Kms..with their Styx missiles..and neither PAF or PN were able to even scratch these attacking ships.
> 
> This is but a 300 Km missile.



In last war PN didn't had AShM, don't compare current PN with old one as now they only lack area air defense other than that they have all required systems to defend.



AMDR said:


> PN should ask China if they can export and install the FL-3000N on their frigates and such. 11 missiles per launcher with which they can counter subsonic and supersonic maneuvering ASCMs. The American version is designated RIM-116 RAM and has been highly successful in testing since its induction in the early 90s.
> 
> *Chinese Version*
> View attachment 197845
> 
> View attachment 197846
> 
> 
> *US Version
> View attachment 197847
> 
> View attachment 197848
> 
> *



PN rejected it in favor of HHQ-7.



ni8mare said:


> now replace zdk with phalcon and nirbhay with babur..........that way we going counter the way you going counter
> 
> 
> yes it can target moving one



Phalcon will not come to help IN in deep waters near gulf of Aden or Somalia n PN can take out CMs as they have all required systems installed n integrated in NCW environment.


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## ares

Basel said:


> In last war PN didn't had AShM, don't compare current PN with old one as now they only lack area air defense other than that they have all required systems to defend.



Technology difference will always be there, between IN and PN.
Afterall IN is a much larger and much better equipped force.

In last war you did not have Ashm, we did not have submarines..and now, Pakistan Navy is not likely to have Supersonic Ashms, Nuclear subs, ship launched and sub launched ballistic missiles, aircraft carriers.

And looking at force and asset disparity between the two forces, this war one will most likely turn like the last one..or even worse for PN.



Basel said:


> PN rejected it in favor of HHQ-7.
> 
> 
> 
> Phalcon will not come to help IN in deep waters near gulf of Aden or Somalia n PN can take out CMs as they have all required systems installed n integrated in NCW environment.



And What will PN or IN be doing across Babel Mandeb, besides PN has never demonstrated any ability to take out even a aircraft much less a supersonic cruise missile.

Even PN's air defence is very limited, it has only very short range SAMs and no fighters.


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## farhan_9909

Indian members were giving lectures to everyone of kinetic energy when the brahmos was revealed/tested initially


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## Basel

ares said:


> Technology difference will always be there, between IN and PN.
> Afterall IN is a much larger and much better equipped force.
> 
> In last war you did not have Ashm, we did not have submarines..and now, Pakistan Navy is not likely to have Supersonic Ashms, Nuclear subs, ship launched and sub launched ballistic missiles, aircraft carriers.
> 
> And looking at force and asset disparity between the two forces, this war one will most likely turn like the last one..or even worse for PN.
> 
> 
> 
> And What will PN or IN be doing across Babel Mandeb, besides PN has never demonstrated any ability to take out even a aircraft much less a supersonic cruise missile.
> 
> Even PN's air defence is very limited, it has only very short range SAMs and no fighters.



PN & PAF now share their assets in coastal areas due to step by step integration of NCW capability and PAF will deploy LY-80-E & SPADA MR-SAMs to protect Karachi.

PN & PAF have trained with USN on how to strike ACC protected by heavy / dense air defense.


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## Mitro

First the short range makes it harder for brahmos when future war will be fought with awacs so it will be not easy to come closer to PN Frigate .
To come closer to PN frigate indian navy has to pass their first line of defence i.e Subs .
The range is 290 km so the indian navy is not going to fired the missile from maximum distance so they have to come closer around 250 or may be 200 km range in this range PN frigate can also target indian navy vessel.
Brahmos is very easily detectable because of big IR signature 
1) Fn90 can easily destroy brahmos with detection range of 25km and homing range of 20 km with 2.3 mach speed.
2)Type 730 CIWs detection range 20km and operating range 3km
3)electronic jammer and flares


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## Basel

Czar786 said:


> First the short range makes it harder for brahmos when future war will be fought with awacs so it will be not easy to come closer to PN Frigate .
> To come closer to PN frigate indian navy has to pass their first line of defence i.e Subs .
> The range is 290 km so the indian navy is not going to fired the missile from maximum distance so they have to come closer around 250 or may be 200 km range in this range PN frigate can also target indian navy vessel.
> Brahmos is very easily detectable because of big IR signature
> 1) Fn90 can easily destroy brahmos with detection range of 25km and homing range of 20 km with 2.3 mach speed.
> 2)Type 730 CIWs detection range 20km and operating range 3km
> 3)electronic jammer and flares



Are you really an Indian?? 

The points you posted are nearly the same what PN guys told me on F-22P, when I visited it last year.


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## ni8mare

Basel said:


> Phalcon will not come to help IN in deep waters near gulf of Aden or Somalia n PN can take out CMs as they have all required systems installed n integrated in *NCW environment*.


but IN don't have NCW..............and therefore it cannot take out pakistani missile ............great logic 

may be pakistans NCW capability is more than IN NCW capability


Basel said:


> PN & PAF now share their assets in coastal areas due to step by step integration of NCW capability and PAF will deploy LY-80-E & SPADA MR-SAMs to protect Karachi.
> 
> PN & PAF have trained with USN on how to strike ACC protected by heavy / dense air defense.


yeap pakistan can take out indian missile ..............but india missile cannot put a dent to all mighty pn i agree

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## Basel

ni8mare said:


> but IN don't have NCW..............and therefore it cannot take out pakistani missile ............great logic
> 
> may be pakistans NCW capability is more than IN NCW capability
> 
> yeap pakistan can take out indian missile ..............but india missile cannot put a dent to all mighty pn i agree



IN will have to fight far from its bases and coastline and PN will be defending its bases and coastline there is a difference here. Both forces will have their pro & cons in any future war.

IN is not USN they can not bring whole fleet to blockade Pakistan as others will be watching too and IN leadership is not fools they know that after messing up in South China sea they can't let their guards down in east too.


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## Mitro

Alhumdullilah i am indian this is the told to me by former PN navy guy .he is my friend but hardly share any thing i just force him to tell me how you defend against brahmos.

Guys 


Basel said:


> Are you really an Indian??
> 
> The points you posted are nearly the same what PN guys told me on F-22P, when I visited it last year.


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## Basel

Czar786 said:


> Alhumdullilah i am indian this is the told to me by former PN navy guy .he is my friend but hardly share any thing i just force him to tell me how you defend against brahmos.
> 
> Guys



Basically they don't fear brahmos they fear longer range system with IN can strike without being coming in range of PAF & PN and on that they are working, PN may soon have 500+ km range coastal missile defense system.


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## ares

Basel said:


> PN & PAF now share their assets in coastal areas due to step by step integration of NCW capability and PAF will deploy LY-80-E & SPADA MR-SAMs to protect Karachi.



This has been happening for ages..in the Past also defence of Karachi naval base was the responsibility of the two adjoining PAF bases.

In 1971 also it was PAF aircrafts which were deployed to sink the Indian missile boat which had attacked Karachi, unfortunately not only were they not able to stop the attack on Karchi, they ended up firing on Pakistani Naval vessel itself. 


Basel said:


> PN & PAF have trained with USN on how to strike ACC protected by heavy / dense air defense.



That is a null logic, Indian navy trains with US navy every alternate year, they must be masters of defending aircraft carriers.

SPADA 2000 has 60km tracking range and 25 km missile range against an approaching aircraft, it is similar Akash missile system.

One of the reason Indian navy did not opt for 
indigenous Akash missile, rather went for Barak NG.

It is insufficient to protect against enemy stand of weapons...like air launched Brahmos or KH series.

Plus Pakistan only has ten batteries of Spada, will PAF give priority to air defence of it bases or Pakistan navy harbours?


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## Mitro

If pakistan can modify babur with some kind of mid course guide with awacs for pakistan that will be cheaper and easily attainable with chinese help.
and i know any system IN has with long distance missile right now.



Basel said:


> Basically they don't fear brahmos they fear longer range system with IN can strike without being coming in range of PAF & PN and on that they are working, PN may soon have 500+ km range coastal missile defense system.


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## Basel

ares said:


> This has been happening for ages..in the Past also defence of Karachi naval base was the responsibility of the two adjoining PAF bases.
> 
> In 1971 also it was PAF aircrafts which were deployed to sink the Indian missile boat which had attacked Karachi, unfortunately not only were they not able to stop the attack on Karchi, they ended up firing on Pakistani Naval vessel itself.
> 
> 
> That is a null logic, Indian navy trains with US navy every alternate year, they must be masters of defending aircraft carriers.
> 
> SPADA 2000 has 60km tracking range and 25 km missile range against an approaching aircraft, it is similar Akash missile system.
> 
> One of the reason Indian navy did not opt for
> indigenous Akash missile, rather went for Barak NG.
> 
> It is insufficient to protect against enemy stand of weapons...like air launched Brahmos or KH series.
> 
> Plus Pakistan only has ten batteries of Spada, will PAF give priority to air defence of it bases or Pakistan navy harbours?



PAF base Masroor in Karachi is at sea and it is main base and if MR-SAMs are deployed there they can help PN installations too as majority of PN & PAF installations are near to each other or embedded. SPADA will be complemented with LY-80E MR-SAM which are recently purchased from China and long range radars will detect the targets SAM radars will only work when target is near their envelope.


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## ares

Basel said:


> IN will have to fight far from its bases and coastline and PN will be defending its bases and coastline there is a difference here. Both forces will have their pro & cons in any future war.
> 
> IN is not USN they can not bring whole fleet to blockade Pakistan as others will be watching too and IN leadership is not fools they know that after messing up in South China sea they can't let their guards down in east too.



One does not need to deploy an entire fleet to blockade a port, just a couple of audacious attacks , sinking of a few navy ships, a few merchant ships, in the vicinity of port is enough to scare off all merchant vessels away...and the port is effectively closed for business.


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## PATHAN786KING

Indian_Patriot said:


> PN what is that...half rusted ships and a few decent subs .
> You guys should just scrap the PN and just have a coast guard..for all the good the PN is going to do you in a conflict. At least you would save a few dollars to plough back into your moribund economy.


save some dollars and build toilet


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## Basel

Czar786 said:


> If pakistan can modify babur with some kind of mid course guide with awacs for pakistan that will be cheaper and easily attainable with chinese help.
> and i know any system IN has with long distance missile right now.



Well it is said that work is in progress as US also uses anti ship version of Tomahawk and it is very effective system ,also it will be cheap to built a nasalized anti ship version of it as it is not very difficult as China have huge experience building such systems.



ares said:


> One does not need to deploy an entire fleet to blockade a port, just a couple of audacious attacks , sinking of a few navy ships, a few merchant ships, in the vicinity of port is enough to scare off all merchant vessels away...and the port is effectively closed for business.



In any future conflict it will be not easy to do that for both sides as situational awareness is now very high on both sides and both sides can response rapidly.


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## ares

Basel said:


> PAF base Masroor in Karachi is at sea and it is main base and if MR-SAMs are deployed there they can help PN installations too as majority of PN & PAF installations are near to each other or embedded. SPADA will be complemented with LY-80E MR-SAM which are recently purchased from China and long range radars will detect the targets SAM radars will only work when target is near their envelope.



Well days off gravity bombings are in the past, stand off weapons are used against base defenses..a Mig 29 taking of 200 NM from Karachi or Gwadar will not even have get in range of Pakistani base defenses to attack these bases.


----------



## Basel

ares said:


> Well days off gravity bombings are in the past, stand off weapons are used against base defenses..a Mig 29 taking of 200 NM from Karachi or Gwadar will not even have get in range of Pakistani base defenses to attack these bases.



If one accept your point then same can be done by PAF as they have plenty of standoff weapons of various types.


----------



## ares

Basel said:


> If one accept your point then same can be done by PAF as they have plenty of standoff weapons of various types.



Offcourse PAF can attempt it, but most of India's biggest Naval bases are out side PAF's reach, be that be Vizag,Port Blair, Karwar or Mumbai or Cochin.

PAF can hit small jetties in Gujarat, as they have done in the past but, thats about it.

And Pakistan navy does not have an aircraft carrier, that it can transport these fighter near its target.


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## Basel

ares said:


> Offcourse PAF can attempt it, but most of India's biggest Naval bases are out side PAF's reach, be that be Vizag,Port Blair, Karwar or Mumbai or Cochin.
> 
> PAF can hit small jetties in Gujarat, as they have done in the past but, thats about it.
> 
> And Pakistan navy does not have an aircraft carrier, that it can transport these fighter near its target.



PAF can hit key areas which will hamper ops against Pakistan and PN will use SLCM to take out long distance targets like Vizag etc. although they may not be needed to attack.


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## Mitro

The scenario you said is only possible if PAF is destroyed or damage to 50% of its air crafts.




ares said:


> Well days off gravity bombings are in the past, stand off weapons are used against base defenses..a Mig 29 taking of 200 NM from Karachi or Gwadar will not even have get in range of Pakistani base defenses to attack these bases.


----------



## ares

Basel said:


> PAF can hit key areas which will hamper ops against Pakistan and PN will use SLCM to take out long distance targets like Vizag etc. although they may not be needed to attack.



SLCMs to attack Vizag?
Last time you sent a submarine that far from its home base , we all know what to it.

Pakistani SLCM have 120 Km range, which is not that great to begin with, offcourse Pakistani submarines are a threat, but the amount of damage, they can inflict on Indian navy or Indian naval bases is still very limited..compared to what IN submarine fleet can do on Pakistani Navy or its bases.


----------



## Basel

ares said:


> SLCMs to attack Vizag?
> Last time you sent a submarine that far from its home base , we all know what to it.
> 
> *Pakistani SLCM have 120 Km range,* which is not that great to begin with, offcourse Pakistani submarines are a threat, but the amount of damage, they can inflict on Indian navy or Indian naval bases is still very limited..compared to what IN submarine fleet can do on Pakistani Navy or its bases.



Who told you that Pakistani SLCM is only 120 km range?? Babur Naval version is going to be 1000+km range and I don't think PN now need to go after IN's eastern command as there is no East Pakistan to defend, and one more thing is that all offensive ops will be joint ops of PAF, PA & PN. Land, air and sea launch standoff weapons will be used to take out Naval, air bases and important installations.


----------



## ares

Czar786 said:


> The scenario you said is only possible if PAF is destroyed or damage to 50% of its air crafts.



PAF can not be omni present, as proven by previous attack on Karachi.

They will be dealing with IAF air raids coming from East too..Now if they have to deal with Indian navy aircrafts, attacking from South and west too..how big you think PAF is.

Operation Trident of Indian navy was co-ordinated with an IAF air raid on Karachi.
At the time styx missiles were hitting Kemari oil tanks and Pakistani harbour in Karachi..IAF too was carrying an air raid over Karachi.

Pakistan did not know, what hit them, and PAF was completely paralyzed could not respond to either of the attacking force.



Basel said:


> Who told you that Pakistani SLCM is only 120 km range?? Babur Naval version is going to be 1000+km range and I don't think PN now need to go after IN's eastern command as there is no East Pakistan to defend, and one more thing is that all offensive ops will be joint ops of PAF, PA & PN. Land, air and sea launch standoff weapons will be used to take out Naval, air bases and important installations.



*What Babur Naval version, when was it last tested?*
Babur is a LACM with terrain contour matching guidance..ie..unable to fly over sea.


----------



## Basel

ares said:


> PAF can not be omni present, as proven by previous attack on Karachi.
> 
> They will be dealing with IAF air raids coming from East too..Now if they have to deal with Indian navy aircrafts, attacking from South and west too..how big you think PAF is.
> 
> Operation Trident of Indian navy was co-ordinated with an IAF air raid on Karachi.
> At the time styx missiles were hitting Kemari oil tanks and Pakistani harbour in Karachi..IAF too was carrying an air raid over Karachi.
> 
> Pakistan did not know, what hit them, and PAF was completely paralyzed could not respond to either of the attacking force.



You are still stuck in 1971 when it comes to Pakistan's fighting capabilities but when it comes to India's fighting capabilities you jump in 21st century, wow.

I don't think Pakistan need old French stuff for JF-17s, Pakistan now have better tech available with no strings attached and ability to customize it as per need, French system don't give freedom of ops like that.



ares said:


> PAF can not be omni present, as proven by previous attack on Karachi.
> 
> They will be dealing with IAF air raids coming from East too..Now if they have to deal with Indian navy aircrafts, attacking from South and west too..how big you think PAF is.
> 
> Operation Trident of Indian navy was co-ordinated with an IAF air raid on Karachi.
> At the time styx missiles were hitting Kemari oil tanks and Pakistani harbour in Karachi..IAF too was carrying an air raid over Karachi.
> 
> Pakistan did not know, what hit them, and PAF was completely paralyzed could not respond to either of the attacking force.
> 
> 
> 
> *What Babur Naval version, when was it last tested?*
> Babur is a LACM terrain contour matching guidance..ie..unable to fly over sea.



Einstein everything is not announced, I can't confirm its induction but rumors are that it is operational at least with one sub and it is not Augustas, but I can't confirm it.


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## ares

Basel said:


> You are still stuck in 1971 when it comes to Pakistan's fighting capabilities but when it comes to India's fighting capabilities you jump in 21st century, wow.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan need old French stuff for JF-17s, Pakistan now have better tech available with no strings attached and ability to customize it as per need, French system don't give freedom of ops like that.



Not much has changed with respect to Pakistan navy since 1971.

PN still depends on it small submarine fleet to inflict token damage against Indian Navy.

It is still dependent on PAF to provide it, aircover.

Most of Pakistani Naval fleet is obsolete, even at the time of its induction.

Pakistan navy asset ratio viz-a-vis Indian navy is still very small, infact it has gotten even worse than what it was comparatively in 1971.



Basel said:


> You are still stuck in 1971 when it comes to Pakistan's fighting capabilities but when it comes to India's fighting capabilities you jump in 21st century, wow.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan need old French stuff for JF-17s, Pakistan now have better tech available with no strings attached and ability to customize it as per need, French system don't give freedom of ops like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Einstein everything is not announced, I can't confirm its induction but rumors are that it is operational at least with one sub and it is not Augustas, but I can't confirm it.



Well you are the genius, who is basing his argument on rumours , come back with this argument, when you conclusive proof of its induction or at least testing.


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## Mitro

All future war will be net centric and all the information will be share between the arm forces with the advantages of satellite and awacs system now their is no need to search enemy ship or carrier battle group it will be very easy to locate and allocate appropriate response.

Operation Trident is only good for history book but cannot easy to repeat and with the advancement of cruise missile and ballistic missile and stand off weapon system like Raad with 350 km range can easily target airbases and navy bases and command center.

In future PN may have a full squadron of aircraft to take care of what you said .




ares said:


> PAF can not be omni present, as proven by previous attack on Karachi.
> 
> They will be dealing with IAF air raids coming from East too..Now if they have to deal with Indian navy aircrafts, attacking from South and west too..how big you think PAF is.
> 
> Operation Trident of Indian navy was co-ordinated with an IAF air raid on Karachi.
> At the time styx missiles were hitting Kemari oil tanks and Pakistani harbour in Karachi..IAF too was carrying an air raid over Karachi.
> 
> Pakistan did not know, what hit them, and PAF was completely paralyzed could not respond to either of the attacking force.
> 
> 
> 
> *What Babur Naval version, when was it last tested?*
> Babur is a LACM terrain contour matching guidance..ie..unable to fly over sea.


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## Basel

ares said:


> Not much has with respect to Pakistan navy since 1971.
> 
> PN still depends on it small submarine fleet to token damage against Indian Navy.
> 
> It is still dependent on PAF to provide it, aircover.
> 
> Most of Pakistani Naval fleet is obsolete, even at the time of its induction.
> 
> Pakistan navy asset ratio viz-a-vis Indian navy is still very small, infact it has gotten even worse than what it was comparatively in 1971.



PN fleet is not obsolete as F-22Ps and other surface assets are new and have modern systems on board, 30 JF-17s are requested by PN to be provided for that air cover and strike role so it will be addressed too.

1971 PN don't even knew about AShM now they are NCW capable fighting force so they have changed a lot, and subs are not their primary defensive weapons, its their MPAs which will provide data to other assets to launch strikes if they could not engage them.



ares said:


> Not much has changed with respect to Pakistan navy since 1971.
> 
> PN still depends on it small submarine fleet to inflict token damage against Indian Navy.
> 
> It is still dependent on PAF to provide it, aircover.
> 
> Most of Pakistani Naval fleet is obsolete, even at the time of its induction.
> 
> Pakistan navy asset ratio viz-a-vis Indian navy is still very small, infact it has gotten even worse than what it was comparatively in 1971.
> 
> 
> 
> *Well you are the genius, who is basing his argument on rumours , come back with this argument, when you conclusive proof of its induction or at least testing.*



There are initially rumors which eventually become reality in Pakistan.


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## Cheetah786

How many times, do I have to tell you pakistanies. Indian weapons are deadly and your weapons are useless against them. If you were to ask the indians how would they defend themselves from Chinese CX1 (same thing as brahmos) they will say no problem, this this and that will take care of that ,but nothing can stop Brahmos cause it is named brahmos not CX1.

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## monitor

I am not expert but reading the expert opinion in the previous thread i think to defend self from Brahmos PN has two option first try to strike first at the attacking ship and aircraft


alimobin memon said:


> Question
> 
> 
> Brahmos is not almighty it can be destroyed if not easily than at least their is probability above average. our ships have one of the best point defense CIWS Type 730B which are tested u can see them on live leak videos. Point defense is extremely underrated defense system which IMHO actually should be considered most reliable defense system for any ship.
> OK don't get me completely Anti brahmos. Brahmos will give Pakistan Navy very less chance IMHO max 10 seconds after it reaches the final stage which is after terminal stage. But for CIWS 10 seconds is a good time to reactive with at least 5-6 times burst shot. and these High RPM that is around 5000 R/MIN they can be devastating for any missile.
> 
> For a walk through lets design a scenario.
> single F22p with 2 CIWS TYPE 730B ready for any attack. A Brahmos coming at it at the speed for lets say max 3 mach. Even if Type 730B has chance two fire 2 separate burst shots for 0.2 seconds. A single burst shots fire exactly 15+ rounds each of bore 30mm with kinectic energy at ~1100m/s the probablity of even a single 30 mm round hit could be greater than 70%. Now if 2 burst shots means 30 rounds. My point is the brahmos has one advantage that is enemy has less reaction time while Point defense has to act fastly. with todays Computing system it can be achieved by Ciws.
> 
> Further Brahmos uses sea skimming I am pretty sure with the weather and tides in sea the sea skimming altitude of 5m max could be less favorable in real time test so the missile will have to re adjust its momentum every second to prevent surface hit in sea. that will hamper its radar avoiding technique for repeatation.
> I am no scientist but My view to brahmos is that a cruise missile which has advantage one and only prospect that is given enemy less reaction time.
> 
> _PN has a better advantage too that is its CM 400 AKG for which currently there is no Defense system for INDIAN navy. Point defense can have but very very less reaction time than in scenario of Brahmos and pn ship point defense._


To counter that they have this 


> The Kashtan is a ship-based gun/missile weapon system designed to engage Mach 2 anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles, bombs, aircraft and surface targets .








If you can destroy brahmos with your type730 CIWS they can too. buth both side will face some destruction due to proximity of attcking missile in very close to ship .

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## ares

Basel said:


> PN fleet is not obsolete as F-22Ps and other surface assets are new and have modern systems on board, 30 JF-17s are requested by PN to be provided for that air cover and strike role so it will be addressed too.



*Lets consider Pakistan Navy's surface fleet*

5 Amazon class frigates..3200 tonnes (designated as destroyers in Pakistan Navy)...aluminium superstructure..dismal performance in Falklands war ..second hand.. built in 1971 to 1974...ie 40 yrs old.

1 OHP class frigate...4100 tonnes...built in 1978 ..second hand..34 yrs old.

4 F-22P ..2500 tonnes....built in 2009..does not even a single state of the art weapon, air defence is pathetic, can only be used for point defence against aircrafts...6 Km range
SSM system on board is obsolete by modern standards, only 120 Km range.

As of now, Pakistan has just single squadron of Mirage 5s for maritime strike role..and only 50 JF-17s in all.



Basel said:


> 1971 PN don't even knew about AShM now they are NCW capable fighting force so they have changed a lot, and subs are not their primary defensive weapons, its their MPAs which will provide data to other assets to launch strikes if they could not engage them.



How incompetent, do you think Pakistan Navy is? They very well knew about ASHMs ..after all Egypt had sunk and Israeli destroyer in 1967, using the very same missile and they very well knew about Indian acquisition of these missile boats..few months prior to war.
Network Centric warfare is not restricted Pakistan.

Pakistan MPA will be more than neutralised by IN air arm, after all It has 

45 Mig 29 Ks
11 sea harriers
radar pickets helicopters..Ka -31 AEWs.

and Haven't even included IAF air assets ear marked for maritime strike yet. 



Basel said:


> There are initially rumors which eventually become reality in Pakistan.



When and if these rumors become a reality, then you can present this argument.


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## Basel

ares said:


> *Lets consider Pakistan Navy's surface fleet*
> 
> 5 Amazon class frigates..3200 tonnes (designated as destroyers in Pakistan Navy)...aluminium superstructure..dismal performance in Falklands war ..second hand.. built in 1971 to 1974...ie 40 yrs old.
> 
> 1 OHP class frigate...4100 tonnes...built in 1978 ..second hand..34 yrs old.
> 
> 4 F-22P ..2500 tonnes....built in 2009..does not even a single state of the art weapon, air defence is pathetic, can only be used for point defence against aircrafts...6 Km range
> SSM system on board is obsolete by modern standards, only 120 Km range.
> 
> As of now, Pakistan has just single squadron of Mirage 5s for maritime strike role..and only 50 JF-17s in all.
> 
> 
> 
> How incompetent, do you think Pakistan Navy is? They very well knew about ASHMs ..after all Egypt had sunk and Israeli destroyer in 1967, using the very same missile and they very well knew about Indian acquisition of these missile boats..few months prior to war.
> Network Centric warfare is not restricted Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan MPA will be more than neutralised by IN air arm, after all It has
> 
> 45 Mig 29 Ks
> 11 sea harriers
> radar pickets helicopters..Ka -31 AEWs.
> 
> and Haven't even included IAF air assets ear marked for maritime strike yet.
> 
> 
> 
> When and if these rumors become a reality, then you can present this argument.



Type 21 ships are only point defense ships now their weapons have been removed and they are waiting for decommissioning.

Only OHP is used ship with PN now.

F-22P's SSM can hit target beyond 180km so please forget 120km max range of missiles of PN ships its old thing and F-22Ps are defensive ships not main offensive ships but they may support offensive ops in certain situations, their air defense is not good but they can hit upto 25km and 12 km for supersonic CMs.

PN did not had AShM missiles and they have not seen Missile boats as it was new to them when IN used them in 1971.

JF-17s can carry vast range of weapons which even our F-16s can't carry and that is why they will be very important part of PAF/PN maritime strike role.

Mig-29K will be potent threat but current ACC can't launch all 30 jet to attack or defend and here PAF can send mix of fighter jets to take care of them.

When I say that Pakistan now have NCW capability it never meant that India don't have it means that with this capability Pakistan can use its forces to maximum extent and making sure that enemy can't sneak in to attack.

PN P-3 will be supported by PAF AWACS and fighter jets so not easy to go after them.


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## ares

Czar786 said:


> All future war will be net centric and all the information will be share between the arm forces with the advantages of satellite and awacs system now their is no need to search enemy ship or carrier battle group it will be very easy to locate and allocate appropriate response.



IF Pakistan defense is becoming network centric, then don't you think, Indian offense is also becoming network centric.

Infact India much ahead of Pakistan in network centricity, thanks to the cold start doctrine, unified tri services command and dedicated espionage and military communication satellites coming on line.



Czar786 said:


> Operation Trident is only good for history book but cannot easy to repeat and with the advancement of cruise missile and ballistic missile and stand off weapon system like Raad with 350 km range can easily target airbases and navy bases and command center.



Operation trident was a high risk and an audacious attack on Pakistan.
Now a day a lot more damage can be done, from a lot further aways, with a lot less risk.

RAAD is subsonic, land attack cruise missile....It can be defended against.

An air launched version of Brahmos(due to be tested this month) will be a lot more lethal.


Czar786 said:


> In future PN may have a full squadron of aircraft to take care of what you said .



Even now PN has one full PAF Mirage squadron at it disposal.

But compare that to what IN has at its disposal.

3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
1 squadron of Harriers
2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
1 Squadron Jaguar IM.



Basel said:


> Type 21 ships are only point defense ships now their weapons have been removed and they are waiting for decommissioning.
> 
> Only OHP is used ship with PN now.
> 
> F-22P's SSM can hit target beyond 180km so please forget 120km max range of missiles of PN ships its old thing and F-22Ps are defensive ships not main offensive ships but they may support offensive ops in certain situations, their air defense is not good but they can hit upto 25km and 12 km for supersonic CMs.
> 
> PN did not had AShM missiles and they have not seen Missile boats as it was new to them when IN used them in 1971.
> 
> JF-17s can carry vast range of weapons which even our F-16s can't carry and that is why they will be very important part of PAF/PN maritime strike role.
> 
> Mig-29K will be potent threat but current ACC can't launch all 30 jet to attack or defend and here PAF can send mix of fighter jets to take care of them.
> 
> When I say that Pakistan now have NCW capability it never meant that India don't have it means that with this capability Pakistan can use its forces to maximum extent and making sure that enemy can't sneak in to attack.
> 
> PN P-3 will be supported by PAF AWACS and fighter jets so not easy to go after them.



F-22 P is equipped with C-802 A 120 Km range and not CM-802 AKG of 180 Km range,

FM-90 SAM deployed on F-22P is a copy of cortale SAM designed by france in 1960s.
It has 12km range against aircrafts and no proven ability against supersonic AShMs.

JF-17 is light aircraft and with very short range, it is not designed to fight air battles against enemy carrier fleets hundreds of miles from home base.

Well Mig -29 is only one the fighter of Indian navy in an air battle against Pakistan..as said previously.
As oppose to 1-2 squadron of JF-17 in future..Indian navy will has.

3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
1 squadron of Harriers
2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
1 Squadron Jaguar IM.

And 46 Tejas MK 2 in future.


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## Basel

ares said:


> IF Pakistan defense is becoming network centric, then don't you think, Indian offense is also becoming network centric.
> 
> Infact India much ahead of Pakistan in network centricity, thanks to the cold start doctrine, unified tri services command and dedicated espionage and military communication satellites coming on line.
> 
> 
> 
> Operation trident was a high risk and an audacious attack on Pakistan.
> Now a day a lot more damage can be done, from a lot further aways, with a lot less risk.
> 
> RAAD is subsonic, land attack cruise missile....It can be defended against.
> 
> An air launched version of Brahmos(due to be tested this month) will be a lot more lethal.
> 
> 
> Even now PN has one full PAF Mirage squadron at it disposal.
> 
> But compare that to what IN has at its disposal.
> 
> 3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
> 1 squadron of Harriers
> 2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
> 1 Squadron Jaguar IM.
> 
> 
> 
> F-22 P is equipped with C-802 A 120 Km range and not CM-802 AKG of 180 Km range,
> 
> FM-90 SAM deployed on F-22P is a copy of cortale SAM designed by france in 1960s.
> It has 12km range against aircrafts and no proven ability against supersonic AShMs.
> 
> JF-17 is light aircraft and with very short range, it is not designed to fight air battles against enemy carrier fleets hundreds of miles from home base.
> 
> Well Mig -29 is only one the fighter of Indian navy in an air battle against Pakistan..as said previously.
> As oppose to 1-2 squadron of JF-17 in future..Indian navy will has.
> 
> 3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
> 1 squadron of Harriers
> 2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
> 1 Squadron Jaguar IM.
> 
> And 46 Tejas MK 2 in future.



Have you visited F-22P?? I have, so stop talking stupid assumption about it.

JF-17s wings have been strengthened and it will have RD-93MA which will allow it to carry more load to more range due to better performance of engine and with IFR it will be able to go after IN's CBG.


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## Mitro

As size of pakistan is small and if they are defending they have the upper hand and net centric only improve their ability .there will be no surprices as their awacs can locate ship,aircraft carrier and tank regimant from 300km and more and can direct asset where needed.



ares said:


> IF Pakistan defense is becoming network centric, then don't you think, Indian offense is also becoming network centric.
> 
> To implement cold start doctrine india don't have infrastructure and attack regimant are located far from border where pakistan can implement fast deployment then india and we all know what happen when india try to move attack regiment to border and pakistan human intelligent is better .
> 
> Infact India much ahead of Pakistan in network centricity, thanks to the cold start doctrine, unified tri services command and dedicated espionage and military communication satellites coming on line.
> 
> Operation trident was very good and well operated i don't know why pakistan can't do the same with lots of cruise and ballistic missile with minimum risk.
> 
> Operation trident was a high risk and an audacious attack on Pakistan.
> Now a day a lot more damage can be done, from a lot further aways, with a lot less risk.
> 
> if that is correct then why india is wasting it time in developing nirbhay
> 
> RAAD is subsonic, land attack cruise missile....It can be defended against.
> 
> They already have operation Cm400akg and Raad
> 
> An air launched version of Brahmos(due to be tested this month) will be a lot more lethal.
> 
> imagine what they can do with more modern fighter and weapon system to their disposal.
> 
> Even now PN has one full PAF Mirage squadron at it disposal.
> 
> like pakistan mirage iaf harriers and jaguar are useless in this modern warfare only mig 29 k and su -30 mki are good
> But compare that to what IN has at its disposal.
> 
> 3 squadron of Mig 29-Ks
> 1 squadron of Harriers
> 2 IAF squadron of Su-30 MKIs
> 1 Squadron Jaguar IM.


----------



## ni8mare

Czar786 said:


> First the short range makes it harder for brahmos when future war will be fought with awacs so it will be not easy to come closer to PN Frigate .
> To come closer to PN frigate indian navy has to pass their first line of defence i.e Subs .
> The range is 290 km so the indian navy is not going to fired the missile from maximum distance so they have to come closer around 250 or may be 200 km range in this range PN frigate can also target indian navy vessel.
> Brahmos is very easily detectable because of big IR signature
> 1) Fn90 can easily destroy brahmos with detection range of 25km and homing range of 20 km with 2.3 mach speed.
> 2)Type 730 CIWs detection range 20km and operating range 3km
> 3)electronic jammer and flares


we do know that brahmos is 300+km .............what ever
ok lets agree with you .............
now consider this when PN do same ..........means PN use AShm will IN will able to defend or IN will be in the bottom of the sea?



PATHAN786KING said:


> save some dollars and build toilet


Toilet facilities — a luxury for most Pakistanis – The Express Tribune
Over 43 million people in Pakistan defecate in the open - thenews.com.pk



Basel said:


> PAF can hit key areas which will hamper ops against Pakistan and PN will use *SLCM* to take out long distance targets like Vizag etc. although they may not be needed to attack.


same will be done by india which will hamper pakistans
btw .....you said this


Basel said:


> And you think PN has not updated its defenses against air threats? PAF have* ZDKs deployed over coastal areas to track ships and air activity during hostile time so CMs like nirbhay will find it very hard to by pass radar and other sensor*.


so it will be very hard for slcm to pass rader



Basel said:


> Who told you that Pakistani SLCM is only 120 km range?? Babur Naval version is going to be 1000+km range and I don't think PN now need to go after IN's eastern command as there is no East Pakistan to defend, and one more thing is that all offensive ops will be joint ops of PAF, PA & PN. *Land, air and sea launch standoff weapons will be used to take out Naval, air bases and important installations*.


same will be done to pakistans asset



Czar786 said:


> All future war will be net centric and all the information will be share between the arm forces with the advantages of satellite and awacs system now their is no need to search enemy ship or carrier battle group it will be very easy to locate and allocate appropriate response.


so we dont have NCW...........



> Operation Trident is only good for history book but cannot easy to repeat and with the advancement of cruise missile and ballistic missile and stand off weapon system like Raad with 350 km range can easily target airbases and navy bases and command center.


and we also dont have sow ............



> In future PN may have a full squadron of aircraft to take care of what you said .


and then we also dont have 2 sq of migs

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## The SC

And how would India defend itself against the chinese Brahmos Equivalent in the Pakistani arsenal?

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## Penguin

Terminal _*guidance*_ is achieved through an active/passive radar > use ESM to detect it, then jam the crap out of it and use decoys like the Nulka decoy and launching system to seduce it away from the target.

Get some good, modern 3D radars and combined them with a good modern IRST. Fuse the data from these as well as from ESM data for good detection. Might even add some form of sound detection.

Get a self defence missile that is anti-missile capable and has some range e.g ESSM (50km, presumably against aircraft), IRIS-T SL (25-30km), Umkhonto-IR-ER (30+km) or Umkhonto-R (60km). It must also be compact and vertically launched, to allow a sufficient number to be carried and launchingin quick succession against simultaneously attacks along multiple axis. Active radar or IIRH guidance preferred, since this eliminated the need for radar illumination of the target (for SARH missiles like ESSM) or directors (for CLOS missiles)

Get more than 1 hard kill layer > besides the missile, use either a medium gun (e.g. 76mm Oto/Strales/Davide) and/or a secondary SAM e.g. Sandral RC or gun system e.g. 30mm gatling.

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## ares

The SC said:


> And how would India defend itself against the chinese Brahmos Equivalent in the Pakistani arsenal?



CM 400 AKG is not equivalent to Brahmos (which is supersonic throughout its flight), it is equivalent to Russian Klub missile, which like CM-400 also goes supersonic only in last phase of it attack, to avoid ships defences.

Had it been supersonic through out its flight, it would have been a much bigger missile like Brahmos or Sunburn, and definately not been compatible with light fighter such as JF-12 

Solution to that, to shoot this missile, while it is still subsonic, which Barak NG can do that..hell Barak NG can even shoot down supersonic missile like Brahmos 500mts from the vessel. 

Brahmos has been tested successfully dozens of times, However there are no records of successful tests of CM 400 AKG..why?


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## Sine Nomine

ares said:


> Brahmos has been tested successfully dozens of times, However there are no records of successful tests of CM 400 AKG..why?


Chinese keep there tests and deployment under secrecy...


ares said:


> Solution to that, to shoot this missile, while it is still subsonic, which Barak NG can do that..hell Barak NG can even shoot down supersonic missile like Brahmos 500mts from the vessel.


During sub-sonic phase Anti-ship missiles are in ground hugging mode very difficult to detect only last super-sonic dash at that time ship has no time to counter it..

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## Screambowl

It will be very rude to say by surrendering to IN.. But, other options are that they go for similar weapon production. You cannot defend, you can only retaliate with equal power.


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## A2Z

Well a question to all my friends who are talking about the naval air arm that India would use to destroy PN and all the carrier fleets, how many ships and aircrafts do you think IN would bring in to face PN and what will be left at home to take care of your eastern coast after all you can not close your eyes and leave the Dragon unattended?


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## NKVD

A2Z said:


> Well a question to all my friends who are talking about the naval air arm that India would use to destroy PN and all the carrier fleets, how many ships and aircrafts do you think IN would bring in to face PN and what will be left at home to take care of your eastern coast after all you can not close your eyes and leave the Dragon unattended?


Answer's to our pakistani friend's.they Don't have to worry,our friends in deiago gracia and south China sea are there for covering our back if dragon do some mishaps it will be grabbed from his tail.

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## Mike_Brando

aazar said:


> I wonder if Pakistan feels any kind of threat from Russian missile which India claims to be home made. Pakistan has RAAD missile too which is also cruise missile. It is enough to destroy already sinking Indian naval fleet.


Ohh come on seriously,a Turk gonna lecture us on the matters of naval affair.Does Turkey even have an effective navy let alone a potent one!!All of Turkey's surface combatants are 2nd hand U.S. junks which have long been retired from the U.S.N.Heck your Navy don't even have the financial resources to buy off the shelf products and has to satisfy it's need by purchasing 2nd hand obsolete U.S.N. frigates.The last time i heard that they were getting beaten black and blue by the Hellenic Navy which is the most potent navy in the Balkan region!!



Basel said:


> Are you really an Indian??
> 
> The points you posted are nearly the same what PN guys told me on F-22P, when I visited it last year.


Nah,he is a false flagger who has been pretending to be an Indian and hiding his real nationality for the last couple of years.The majority of the older Indian members know about this false flagger troll and hence try to avoid having a meaningless discussion with him.

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## Penguin

Mike_Brando said:


> Ohh come on seriously,a Turk gonna lecture us on the matters of naval affair.*Does Turkey even have an effective navy let alone a potent one!!All of Turkey's surface combatants are 2nd hand U.S. junks which have long been retired from the U.S.N. *Heck your Navy don't even have the financial resources to buy off the shelf products and has to satisfy it's need by purchasing 2nd hand obsolete U.S.N. frigates.The last time i heard that they were getting beaten black and blue by the Hellenic Navy which is the most potent navy in the Balkan region!!


You are seriously misinformed about the Turkish navy. It currently includes; 16 frigates, 8 corvettes, 13 submarines, 23 missile boats, 28 patrol boats ,32 MCM vessels, 29 landing ships, and various auxiliary ships. Like Australia, Turkey has modernized its former US Perry ships (G-class) with the GENESIS advanced combat management system. The modernization program also included a) addition of an 8-cell Mk41 VLS for ESSM combined with upgrade of the Mk-92 FCS, b) retrofitting of a new advanced SMART -S MK2 3D search radar and c) the addition of a new long range sonar. Turkey has both acquired and domestically constructed MEKO200TN frigates. It is currently building the ADA-class (MILGEM) class corvettes / light frigates, with more and larger ships to follow in the near future. Turkey is acquiring a pair of LPD/LHDs, to be built domestically, and TF2000, a 6000 ton AAW ship. Early Atılay class submarines will be replaced by Type 214 submarines starting in 2015. Turkey produces its own FACs including the 440ton _Yıldız_-class and the 550 ton _Kılıç_-class. It also builds LCT

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## Zohaib Irfan

Pakistan Navy can defend it .. They have power to defend anything


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## Mike_Brando

Penguin said:


> You are seriously misinformed about the Turkish navy. It currently includes; 16 frigates, 8 corvettes, 13 submarines, 23 missile boats, 28 patrol boats ,32 MCM vessels, 29 landing ships, and various auxiliary ships. Like Australia, Turkey has modernized its former US Perry ships (G-class) with the GENESIS advanced combat management system. The modernization program also included a) addition of an 8-cell Mk41 VLS for ESSM combined with upgrade of the Mk-92 FCS, b) retrofitting of a new advanced SMART -S MK2 3D search radar and c) the addition of a new long range sonar. Turkey has both acquired and domestically constructed MEKO200TN frigates. It is currently building the ADA-class (MILGEM) class corvettes / light frigates, with more and larger ships to follow in the near future. Turkey is acquiring a pair of LPD/LHDs, to be built domestically, and TF2000, a 6000 ton AAW ship. Early Atılay class submarines will be replaced by Type 214 submarines starting in 2015. Turkey produces its own FACs including the 440ton _Yıldız_-class and the 550 ton _Kılıç_-class. It also builds LCT


Sir,i do know that Turkey has got some serious firepower in her navy.She's one of the leading Naval powers both in the Mediterranean sea and the Black Sea region.
That turkish poster said that the I.N. was a useless navy and hence I just replied him back in his own coin and nothing else.I have nothing against Turkey but if a turkish member is ridiculing my country then i will do the same against his country.

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## Penguin

By contrast, the Hellenic navy boasts 4 German designed Greek built MEKO200HN (all to be modernized in the near future), as well as 2 Dutch built Original Elli class (modified Kortenaer)and 7 Dutch built former Netherlands navy Kortenaer class frigates (of which 6 will be modernized). FUrther some 19 missile boats, 10 patrol boats and 11 submarines (including 4 Type 214). Finally 4 MCM ships (2 ex UK Hunt and 2 ex-US Osprey), 5 large LCTs and 4 large Urkainian built Zubr LCAC. Greece builds Type 214 sub, Jaston LST, Rousen Super Vita and Combattante IIIb FACs (but imported II and III from France), Osprey patrol boats.

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## A2Z

NKVD said:


> Answer's to our pakistani friend's.they Don't have to worry,our friends in deiago gracia and south China sea are there for covering our back if dragon do some mishaps it will be grabbed from his tail.


So you are saying in case of such a conflict all the IN ships and aircrafts would be sent to western coast and eastern coast will have nothing? Everything would be left on 'your friends'?

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## Pomegranate

A2Z said:


> So you are saying in case of such a conflict all the IN ships and aircrafts would be sent to western coast and eastern coast will have nothing? Everything would be left on 'your friends'?


He is saying that he has no idea what he is saying .................  just presuming things .... to satisfy himself

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## NKVD

A2Z said:


> So you are saying in case of such a conflict all the IN ships and aircrafts would be sent to western coast and eastern coast will have nothing? Everything would be left on 'your friends'?


I'm Just Countering you Hypothetical Claims By Raw Facts In which you are Presuming that Chinese Will go war with India to Save Pakistan's Interest When in the Past they never Ever Done So Remember 65,71 or 99

PS:In Real World in Conventional War Scenarios Pakistan Don't have Enough Resources to Take on Full Indian Offensive Slaughter . India Successfully can Fight with 30-35% of Its Resources with Full Pakistani Offensive .Gap Between India Pakistan is That wide



Pomegranate said:


> He is saying that he has no idea what he is saying .................  just presuming things .... to satisfy himself


Same Like you guys.Where was Your Friend China in 71 Humiliation Can you Answer

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## Bornubus

Has anybody seen 7th fleet around BD/east pak lately

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## Ind4Ever

monitor said:


> _It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
> How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.



No defence just do ur last prayer till you see a glimpse of the mighty bramos ... _/\_


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## A2Z

NKVD said:


> I'm Just Countering you Hypothetical Claims By Raw Facts In which you are Presuming that Chinese Will go war with India to Save Pakistan's Interest When in the Past they never Ever Done So Remember 65,71 or 99


Going on war directly is not the only thing to do. Read about Arab Israel wars you'll realize how US backed Israel without intervening directly.


NKVD said:


> In Real World in Conventional War Scenarios Pakistan Don't have Enough Resources to Take on Full Indian Offensive Slaughter .


Pakistan was able to repel your so called full offensive slaughter in 65 when you attacked Lahore and out numbered PA 5:1. And most recently after Mumbai attacks India wanted to go on war once again but that didn't happened, ever wondered why? 


NKVD said:


> India Successfully can Fight with 30-35% of Its Resources with Full Pakistani Offensive .Gap Between India Pakistan is That wide


Pakistan never goes for offensive, its doctrine is a defensive one. A little bit of reading and use of common sense harms no one.


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## rockstarIN

The SC said:


> And how would India defend itself against the chinese Brahmos Equivalent in the Pakistani arsenal?



The chinese brahmos, of which they showcased a model in the recent show will be countered by Barak-8 system. 

The major purpose of this system for Israel to counter Syrian p-800 missiles.(from which Brahmos is derived)

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## NKVD

A2Z said:


> Going on war directly is not the only thing to do. Read about Arab Israel wars you'll realize how US backed Israel without intervening directly.


your Comparison of Pakistan with Israel is Hilarious.Best of Luck


A2Z said:


> Pakistan was able to repel your so called full offensive slaughter in 65 when you attacked Lahore and out numbered PA 5:1. And most recently after Mumbai attacks India wanted to go on war once again but that didn't happened, ever wondered why?


Again Old we won 65 Rant Let me Bust your Fan-boyish bubble

Despite the declaration of a ceasefire, India was perceived as the victor due to its success in halting the Pakistan-backed insurgency in Kashmir.[108] In its October 1965 issue, the TIME magazine quoted a Western official assessing the consequences of the war[109] —

Now it's apparent to everybody that India is going to emerge as an Asian power in its own right.

In light of the failures of the Sino-Indian War, the outcome of the 1965 war was viewed as a "politico-strategic" victory in India. The Indian premier, Lal Bahadur Shastri, was hailed as a national hero in India.[110]

While the overall performance of the Indian military was praised, military leaders were criticized for their failure to effectively deploy India's superior armed forces so as to achieve a decisive victory over Pakistan.[111] In his book _"War in the modern world since 1815"_, noted war historian Jeremy Black said that though Pakistan "lost heavily" during the 1965 war, India's hasty decision to call for negotiations prevented further considerable damage to the Pakistan Armed Forces. He elaborates[112] —

India's chief of army staff urged negotiations on the ground that they were running out ammunition and their number of tanks had become seriously depleted. In fact, the army had used less than 15% of its ammunition compared to Pakistan, which had consumed closer to 80 percent and India had double the number of serviceable tanks.

As a consequence, India focussed on enhancing communication and coordination within and among the triservices of the Indian Armed Forces.

At the conclusion of the war, many Pakistanis considered the performance of their military to be positive. 6 September is celebrated as Defence Day in Pakistan, in commemoration of the successful defence of Lahore against the Indian army. The performance of the Pakistani Air Force, in particular, was praised.

However, the Pakistani government was accused by foreign analysts of spreading disinformation among its citizens regarding the actual consequences of the war.[119] In his book "_Mainsprings of Indian and Pakistani foreign policies_", S.M. Burke writes[18] —

After the Indo-Pakistani war of 1965 the balance of military power had decisively shifted in favor of India. Pakistan had found it difficult to replace the heavy equipment lost during that conflict while her adversary, despite her economic and political problems, had been determinedly building up her strength.

Most observers agree that the myth of a mobile, hard hitting Pakistan Army was badly dented in the war, as critical breakthroughs were not made.[120] Several Pakistani writers criticized the military's ill-founded belief that their "martial race" of soldiers could defeat "Hindu India" in the war.[121][122]


Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



A2Z said:


> Pakistan never goes for offensive, its doctrine is a defensive one. A little bit of reading and use of common sense harms no one.


Rasul Bux Rais, a Pakistani political analyst wrote[123] –

The 1965 war with India proved that Pakistan could neither break the formidable Indian defenses in a blitzkrieg fashion nor could she sustain an all-out conflict for long.

Ps: History LessonThey Won't Teach you in Pakistan.

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## vsdave2302

monitor said:


> _It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
> How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.


 

New brahmos have become more deadly. Brahmos M have 25% higher speed. This year, verticle (90* and not steep dive) dive on target is planned agaist a target. Air launch brahmos shall have significantly higher range.



Basel said:


> ESSM can intercept supersonic missiles even Phalnax-1B & above guns can engage supersonic missiles, it all depands on early detection and quick response.


 

Do you know how much time your gun shall get to engage brahmos? If not than read the article How to defend Brahmos posted by me.


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## Bornubus

A2Z said:


> Going on war directly is not the only thing to do. Read about Arab Israel wars you'll realize how US backed Israel without intervening directly.
> 
> Pakistan was able to repel your so called full offensive slaughter in 65 when you attacked Lahore and out numbered PA 5:1. And most recently after Mumbai attacks India wanted to go on war once again but that didn't happened, ever wondered why?
> 
> Pakistan never goes for offensive, its doctrine is a defensive one. A little bit of reading and use of common sense harms no one.


you never repelled us 65 .....it was end with a stalemate as both parties were entrenched where they were.....with India captured more fertile land of Pakistan including HAJI pir pass in Kashmir.....


After 2008 there was no major terrorist attacks in India ever wonder why"??


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## SipahSalar

The same way IN will defend against CM 400 AKG.


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## alimobin memon

monitor said:


> I am not expert but reading the expert opinion in the previous thread i think to defend self from Brahmos PN has two option first try to strike first at the attacking ship and aircraft
> 
> To counter that they have this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you can destroy brahmos with your type730 CIWS they can too. buth both side will face some destruction due to proximity of attcking missile in very close to ship .


U are saying almost exact same thing as mine but u ignore the fact that pakistani cm 400 akg are no mach 2 missiles but mach 4+ while brahmos top mach is 3 so...


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## ares

SipahSalar said:


> The same way IN will defend against CM 400 AKG.



Indian navy has Barak NG, which from its inception was designed to stop supersonic Cruise missiles like Brahmos, what does Pakistan Navy have?

CM-400 AKG which is like Russian klub missile, which equips Indian navy's all 9 kilo class subs as well Shivalik and Talwar class frigates.

Only goes supersonic in terminal phase of it flight..long range Sams can bring down this missile, while it is still subsonic.

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## bloo

alimobin memon said:


> U are saying almost exact same thing as mine but u ignore the fact that pakistani cm 400 akg are no mach 2 missiles but mach 4+ while brahmos top mach is 3 so...



Why do people always keep quoting cm 400 akg?
Its not a cruise missile, its an AShM which is not even supersonic all throughout its flight like the Brahmos. It reaches high speeds only at the terminal stage while following a linear path, whereas Brahmos does the S manuever right before interception.


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## alimobin memon

bloo said:


> Why do people always keep quoting cm 400 akg?
> Its not a cruise missile, its an AShM which is not even supersonic all throughout its flight like the Brahmos. It reaches high speeds only at the terminal stage while following a linear path, whereas Brahmos does the S manuever right before interception.


Whether its Cruise missile or not My answer is that PN has a answer to brahmos cruise missile. There is no law that cruise missile can only be answered with cruise missile. at terminal stage it has mach 5.5 at final stage lets say sea skimming it has more than mach 4 so... 

Dude see I am not saying Brahmos is in disadvantage or weak it is In my opinion one of the best cruise missile with such an enormous velocity defending it is not impossible I just said the navy will have less reaction time which can save PN ship at some probability however if fired in some groups rather than single launch on target the PN will suffer heavy losses. But PN will also assure that IN has losses too. Just saying man if we look at this thread topic the answer is PN has no excellent defence to counter brahmos but has a chance to intercept it using point defense system only which has less reaction time.


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## cabatli_53

Mike_Brando said:


> Ohh come on seriously,a Turk gonna lecture us on the matters of naval affair.Does *Turkey even have an effective navy let alone a potent one!*!All of Turkey's surface combatants are *2nd hand U.S. junks which have long been retired from the U.S.N*.Heck your Navy don't even have the* financial resources to buy off the shelf products* and has to satisfy it's need by purchasing 2nd hand obsolete U.S.N. frigates.The last time i heard that they were getting beaten black and blue by the *Hellenic Navy which is the most potent navy in the Balkan region!!*



Dude, What did you smoke before typing all those BS?


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## bloo

alimobin memon said:


> Whether its Cruise missile or not My answer is that PN has a answer to brahmos cruise missile. There is no law that cruise missile can only be answered with cruise missile. at terminal stage it has mach 5.5 at final stage lets say sea skimming it has more than mach 4 so...
> 
> Dude see I am not saying Brahmos is in disadvantage or weak it is In my opinion one of the best cruise missile with such an enormous velocity defending it is not impossible I just said the navy will have less reaction time which can save PN ship at some probability however if fired in some groups rather than single launch on target the PN will suffer heavy losses. But PN will also assure that IN has losses too. Just saying man if we look at this thread topic the answer is PN has no excellent defence to counter brahmos but has a chance to intercept it using point defense system only which has less reaction time.




As I said cm400 is an ASM I doubt it has sea skimming ability without the possibility of reduced range if at all. It flies from up to down, completely linear trajectory and makes head on interception easy for SAMs unlike Brahmos which uses the S-manuever.
You are putting too much emphasis on speed there are many missiles faster than Brahmos but that's not what makes it special, its Brahmos' asymmetric trajectory and mach speeds all throughout its flight which makes detection and engagement extremely hard. Even if it is detected it will already be too late to destroy it with anything.


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## Assange

Defending against Bromos is simple detecting it early....If you miss it it is going to fcuk big time....


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## cabatli_53

shaheenmissile said:


> with this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=571752249603630




Bro, Turkey is developing a very strong self defence capabilities for navy and land forces but Naval stabilized guns like STAMP-STOP-SMASH are not to engage mainly aerial threats.

Korkut-D CIWS + Hisar-A Low altitude Missile + Hisar-O Medium altitude Missile combination will be enough to deal with such effective coming missile systems in near future. Along with those systems, Turkish institutes commenced trials of lazer gun system to be integrated on TF-2000 frigates as well. Similar solutions under collaboration between Pakistan-Turkey can be adopted on PN platforms easily.

Hisar-A






Hisar-O





Korkut-D twin barrel 35mm AHEAD capable CIWS





35mm Munition called TARP (Attention to affected circle on target fired by just one 35mm bullet. Think multiple firing of TARP munitions over coming missiles)

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## Mike_Brando

cabatli_53 said:


> Dude, What did you smoke before typing all those BS?


The same thing your fellow compatriot @aazar was smoking when he wrote that derogatory crap about the Indian Navy.I was just replying him back in this own coin.

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## cabatli_53

Mike_Brando said:


> The same thing your fellow compatriot @aazar was smoking when he wrote that derogatory crap about the Indian Navy.I was just replying him back in this own coin.



If you are replying him back, You should focus on correcting the things He claimed instead of talking about what you don't have any idea.


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## Mike_Brando

cabatli_53 said:


> If you are replying him back, You should focus on correcting the things He claimed instead of talking about what you don't have any idea.


Seriously,i don't have any idea about my own Navy!He said that it would be easy for the P.N. to sink an "already sinking" Navy.So you tell me,isn't it a derogatory crap against the world's one of the most powerful Navies!Have you even seen an Indian member going to the Turkish section and intentionally trolling on the turkish members,saying derogatory things about your Armed Forces!Truth to be told,we have got no ill feelings against Turkey.On the contrary many Turkish members come to the Indian defense sections and start trolling without any given reason.

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## Omega007

A2Z said:


> Going on war directly is not the only thing to do. Read about Arab Israel wars you'll realize how US backed Israel without intervening directly.
> 
> Pakistan was able to repel your so called full offensive slaughter in 65 when you attacked Lahore and out numbered PA* 5:1*. And most recently after Mumbai attacks India wanted to go on war once again but that didn't happened, ever wondered why?
> 
> Pakistan never goes for offensive, its doctrine is a defensive one. A little bit of reading and use of common sense harms no one.



Seriously!!You know what - why don't you make it 50:1 or even better............500:1 !!Kiddo,do you even know that back in 65,Indian Army was actually out numbered by Pakistani Army in terms of Tanks and medium artillery??But how would you know,neither do I expect a madrassa scum like you have an iota of know wrt this things.



alimobin memon said:


> Whether its Cruise missile or not My answer is that PN has a answer to brahmos cruise missile. There is no law that cruise missile can only be answered with cruise missile. at terminal stage it has mach 5.5 at final stage lets say *sea skimming it has more than mach 4* so...
> 
> Dude see I am not saying Brahmos is in disadvantage or weak it is In my opinion one of the best cruise missile with such an enormous velocity defending it is not impossible I just said the navy will have less reaction time which can save PN ship at some probability however if fired in some groups rather than single launch on target the PN will suffer heavy losses. But PN will also assure that IN has losses too. Just saying man if we look at this thread topic the answer is PN has no excellent defence to counter brahmos but has a chance to intercept it using point defense system only which has less reaction time.



Dude you kidding me??The so called CM 400AKG is designed for a top attack profile from a high altitude.And that's the only way it can achieve such a velocity given its dimensions which looks like out of this world for it to be sea skimming missile.Forget mach 4,such a missile will barely be supersonic at level flight.And there lies the problem - due to its high trajectory flight pattern,it will get picked up by IN's powerful and modern radar network (which in any case is full two generations ahead of what PN has at present) much earlier compared to what would be possible against a sea skimming missile and will therefore give them plenty of times to react.But Brahmos doesn't have such a limitation since it travels its last 50-60 km at just 10 meter ASL,which means the shipborne radars can not pick it up at longer distances due to earth's curvature.

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## Ray_of_Hope

Omega007 said:


> Seriously!!You know what - why don't you make it 50:1 or even better............500:1 !!Kiddo,do you even know that back in 65,Indian Army was actually out numbered by Pakistani Army in terms of Tanks and medium artillery??But how would you know,neither do I expect a madrassa scum like you have an iota of know wrt this things.


@A2Z is right about Indian army having 5:1 ratio against pak army at lahore.Overall Indian army out numbered Pak army by 3:1.in 1965i.e.Indian infantry had 700000 soldiers against 250000 soldiers of pak army.



Omega007 said:


> !Kiddo,do you even know that back in 65,_*Indian Army was actually out numbered by Pakistani Army in terms of Tanks and medium artillery*_??But how would you know,neither do I expect a madrassa scum like you have an iota of know wrt this things.


In 1965 Pakistan did have ONLY SLIGHT numerical superiority in terms of number of tanks.Overall,Indian army had more artillery pieces.......You don`t seem to understand that of Indian army was vastly superiority to Pakistan army in almost everything....But how would a bigot understand that.....


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## Omega007

Mike_Brando said:


> Seriously,i don't have any idea about my own Navy!He said that it would be easy for the P.N. to sink an "already sinking" Navy.So you tell me,isn't it a derogatory crap against the world's one of the most powerful Navies!Have you even seen an Indian member going to the Turkish section and intentionally trolling on the turkish members,saying derogatory things about your Armed Forces!Truth to be told,we have got no ill feelings against Turkey.On the contrary many Turkish members come to the Indian defense sections and start trolling without any given reason.



See!!This is the reason I generally tend to avoid these sort of threads because after a certain time,they turn into stupid d!ck measuring contests more often than not.



war khan said:


> @A2Z is right about Indian army having 5:1 ratio against pak army at lahore.Overall Indian army out numberes Pak army by 3:1.i.Indian infantry had 700000 soldiers against 250000 soldiers of pak army.



First of all,Pakistan Army had about 300k active troops back in 65.And the 700k numbers for the IA is totally misleading since Indian Army was going through a big expansion and when the hostilities began,the process wasn't even nearly complete!!A big number of the Indian formations that took part in the war were neither properly trained nor equipped!!Many formations were inexperienced and their trainings were not completed.
And besides,even if we take your numbers to be true,there is no way Indian infantry could have outnumbered their Pakistani counterparts by more than 2 to 1 because the most well equipped and well trained formations of the Indian Army,namely 10 odd numbers of mountain divisions (about 1/3 rd of then Indian Army) did not take part in that war,who were deployed along the LAC since the wound of 1962 debacle was still very fresh into our minds!!So they were never committed into the war!!But of course you wouldn't know that and I don't blame you either!!How would you know when your ruling elites have more or less rewritten the history and fed it to you guys for their own vested interests.



war khan said:


> In 1965 Pakistan did have ONLY SLIGHT numerical superiority in terms of number of tanks.



True if you compare them from an absolute numbers' pov.But did you ever stop to think for once,about what were the models of tanks available to both sides at the start of war??Lets see - The Pakistani Army had somewhere between 3500-420 M47 and M 48 Patton tanks and the rests were late model M4 Shermans,armed with a 76 mm high velocity gun.On the other hand,Indian Army had 188 Centurion MkIXs,some 300 early model M4 Shermans with the original short barreled 75mm guns with lower velocity and a large number of AMX 17s which could not even be considered as a true tank with enough protection just aga9inst small arms rounds and some artillery fragments!!So there goes your theory about a super advanced Indian Army.



war khan said:


> *Overall,Indian army had more artillery pieces*.......*You don`t seem to understand that of Indian army was vastly superiority to Pakistan army in almost everything*


Again,a half truth only!!The quality of the Pakistani Army artillery was far better compared to what was available to Indian Army.All we had back then were just 105mm and 122mm guns (and 75mm pack howitzers of course)which neither had the range nor the punch of the 155mm and 209mm Pakistani Army artillery guns!!So again,as is quite well known,Pakistani Army had enjoyed significant advantage over their Indian counterparts in terms of training,artillery and armor - which are three of the most crucial things in any campaign.Besides,Pakistan Army also enjoyed significant advantage in terms of transportation and communication equipments!!So I ask you again - how on earth you came to the above conclusion??



war khan said:


> ....But how would a bigot understand that.....



Sure Sure,why not??I got to be a bigot since I speak the truth!!Nice logic you have got there.

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## Ray_of_Hope

Omega007 said:


> See!!This is the reason I generally tend to avoid these sort of threads because after a certain time,they turn into stupid d!ck measuring contests more often than not.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all,Pakistan Army had about 300k active troops back in 65.And the 700k numbers for the IA is totally misleading since Indian Army was going through a big expansion and when the hostilities began,the process wasn't even nearly complete!!A big number of the Indian formations that took part in the war were neither properly trained nor equipped!!Many formations were inexperienced and their trainings were not completed.
> And besides,even if we take your numbers to be true,there is no way Indian infantry could have outnumbered their Pakistani counterparts by more than 2 to 1 because the most well equipped and well trained formations of the Indian Army,namely 10 odd numbers of mountain divisions (about 1/3 rd of then Indian Army) did not take part in that war,who were deployed along the LAC since the wound of 1962 debacle was still very fresh into our minds!!So they were never committed into the war!!But of course you wouldn't know that and I don't blame you either!!How would you know when your ruling elites have more or less rewritten the history and fed it to you guys for their own vested interests.
> 
> 
> 
> True if you compare them from an absolute numbers' pov.But did you ever stop to think for once,about what were the models of tanks available to both sides at the start of war??Lets see - The Pakistani Army had somewhere between 3500-420 M47 and M 48 Patton tanks and the rests were late model M4 Shermans,armed with a 76 mm high velocity gun.On the other hand,Indian Army had 188 Centurion MkIXs,some 300 early model M4 Shermans with the original short barreled 75mm guns with lower velocity and a large number of AMX 17s which could not even be considered as a true tank with enough protection just aga9inst small arms rounds and some artillery fragments!!So there goes your theory about a super advanced Indian Army.
> 
> 
> Again,a half truth only!!The quality of the Pakistani Army artillery was far better compared to what was available to Indian Army.All we had back then were just 105mm and 122mm guns (and 75mm pack howitzers of course)which neither had the range nor the punch of the 155mm and 209mm Pakistani Army artillery guns!!So again,as is quite well known,Pakistani Army had enjoyed significant advantage over their Indian counterparts in terms of training,artillery and armor - which are three of the most crucial things in any campaign.Besides,Pakistan Army also enjoyed significant advantage in terms of transportation and communication equipments!!So I ask you again - how on earth you came to the above conclusion??
> 
> 
> 
> Sure Sure,why not??I got to be a bigot since I speak the truth!!Nice logic you have got there.


We can discuss it but this has gone way off topic....If u want to discuss it,then create a separate thread for it


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## Omega007

war khan said:


> We can discuss it but this has gone way off topic....If u want to discuss it,then create a separate thread for it



Of course I would like to have a further discussion on this subject,somewhere else.A proper discussion,without the usual rants and all.  And thanks by the way.


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## nomi007

how u stop df-21 (shaheen carrier killer missile)
CM-400AKG
cx-1
raad
babur
we will sink ur carrier this type we promise


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## Mike_Brando

nomi007 said:


> how u stop df-21 (shaheen carrier killer missile)
> CM-400AKG
> cx-1
> raad
> babur
> we will sink ur carrier this type we promise


Well,you may be able to sink one of our carriers this time but we also promise you that we will sink your entire navy in the bottom of the Arabian sea this time with thousands of Nirbhays,Shauryas,Brahmos,Klub,Kh-35,Brahmos-M etc.

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## Basel

vsdave2302 said:


> New brahmos have become more deadly. Brahmos M have 25% higher speed. This year, verticle (90* and not steep dive) dive on target is planned agaist a target. Air launch brahmos shall have significantly higher range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know how much time your gun shall get to engage brahmos? If not than read the article How to defend Brahmos posted by me.



Dude I have discussed this topic on board F-22P and they laughed and said let Indians on net say what they like but their Navy knows that we can defend our ports and coastlines.


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## ares

Basel said:


> Dude I have discussed this topic on board F-22P and they laughed and said let Indians on net say what they like but their Navy knows that we can defend our ports and coastlines.



What else do you expect them to say, our situation out here is pathetic...most of our weapons are second hand or cheap chinese knock offs...our budget is 1/11 the of Indian Navy's($567 million vs $6.4 Billion). As soon as Brahmos is fired on us, we'll give general order to abandon ship and jump overboard ?

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## Basel

ares said:


> What else do you expect them to say, our situation out here is pathetic...most of our weapons are second hand or cheap chinese knock offs...our budget is 1/11 the of Indian Navy's($567 million vs $6.4 Billion). As soon as Brahmos is fired on us, we'll give general order to abandon ship and jump overboard ?



No PN weapons are not cheap as Indian pose to the world even many Chinese systems are east west hypbrid, it will continue untill China can make all top of the line system in house.

Do you think Augostas, P-3s, F-22Ps, MRTPs are cheap and knock offs then you living in fools paradise.


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## NKVD

Basel said:


> Do you think Augostas, P-3s, F-22Ps, MRTPs are cheap and knock offs then you living in fools paradise.


you call F-22p a good Frigate 
Let Me Tell you what Frigate is Shivalik-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ares

Basel said:


> No IN weapons are not cheap as Indian pose to the world even many Chinese systems are east west hypbrid, it will continue untill China can make all top of the line system in house.



Chinese weapons on board f-22P are cheap knock offs western and russian weapons.

C-802 ..Harpoon 
FM-90 SAM...Cortale
Type 730 CIWS ...AK630
AK176..soviet main gun

ON top of it..F-22P(2500 tonnes) is hardly the size of a corvette, yet has been designated as frigates, just like how Amazon class frigates(2750 tonnes) were classified as destroyers in Pakistan Navy.

*In fact Indian Navy's Kamorta class corvette(2800 tonnes, 3400 tonnes full load) are bigger and better equipped than Pakistani frigates and destroyers..barring one OHP.*

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## Basel

NKVD said:


> you call F-22p a good Frigate
> Let Me Tell you what Frigate is Shivalik-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Yes because its main purpose is defensive patrol where PAF can provide air cover, if OHPs had been released to PN then they would have been main attack fleet of PN but now PN have considered other options and asking Govt. for funds.



ares said:


> Chinese weapons on board f-22P are cheap knock offs western and russian weapons.
> 
> C-802 ..Harpoon
> FM-90 SAM...Cortale
> Type 730 CIWS ...AK630
> AK176..soviet main gun
> 
> ON top of it..F-22P(2500 tonnes) is hardly the size of a corvette, yet has been designated as frigates, just like how Amazon class frigates(2750 tonnes) were classified as destroyers in Pakistan Navy.
> 
> *In fact Indian Navy's Kamorta class corvette(2800 tonnes, 3400 tonnes full load) are bigger and better equipped than Pakistani frigates and destroyers..barring one OHP.*



If you call those knock off then your nirbhay is knock off of tomahawk CM and Brahmos is knock off of Onyx missiles.


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## ares

Basel said:


> Yes because its main purpose is defensive patrol where PAF can provide air cover, if OHPs had been released to PN then they would have been main attack fleet of PN but now PN have considered other options and asking Govt. for funds.
> 
> 
> 
> If you call those knock off then your nirbhay is knock off of tomahawk CM and Brahmos is knock off of Onyx missiles.



Nirbhay and tomahawk have nothing in common except they are both cruise missiles..however Babur and tomahawk..same design, same navigation.

Brhamos is Indo-Russian joint venture, Onyx is Russian missile, how can you call it knock off..they are designed by the same country.







*Regardless the most advanced vessel in your Navy, far below power, than even India's indigenous corvettes.*


----------



## The SC

Pakistan can at least defend with this against Brahmos:

*Aspide Mk1/Mk2*

*The Italian Aspide, basically a licensed version of the American Sparrow, is similarly employed as both an air-to-air and surface-to-air missile, and in the later role it is launched from both ships and ground platforms. The AIM-7E Sparrow entered service in 1962 and was widely used as a standard for other variants such as the Sky Flash (UK) and Aspide (Italy). Alenia Difesa offers a complete range of systems, including the air to air and surface to air systems based on Aspide missile (Spada, Skyguard, Albatros, ARAMIS). 
The Chinese PL-11 medium-range AAM is based on the Aspide, which was acquired by China in the late 1980s for use in the air-to-air roles, and as with the American and Italian version, subsequently in the LY-60 system modified for both ground and naval air defence applications. In reaction to the Tiananmen Square massacre, the European Council--an EU decision-making body comprised of ministers from EU member countries--imposed several sanctions in June 1989, including "an embargo on trade in arms with China." The deliveries of Italian Aspide air-to-air missiles appear to have been made in connection with pre-embargo agreements. Although a contract for the Aspide system has been signed with Italian firm Alinea, the government in Rome had not given its permission to export the missiles to Cyprus, fearing the deployment would only fuel existing tensions. 

Through Alenia Difesa, Finmeccanica offers a complete range of systems, including the surface to air systems based on the Aspide missile (Spada, Skyguard, Albatros, ARAMIS).*

*Specifications - Skyguard SAM*
Capacity discovery radar 20 Km 
N. fire channels 2 
N. ready missiles to the launch 12 
Time reaction arranges 11 sec 
The maximum capacity 10 Km 
Minimal capacity 750 m 
The maximum quota 3.5 Km approximately 
Guidance system homing semiactive 
Weight of the missile 220 Kg approximately 
maximum speed of the missile 650 m/sec 
Single-shot hit probability (SSKP) 80%


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## ares

The SC said:


> Pakistan can at least defend with this against Brahmos:
> 
> *Aspide Mk1/Mk2*
> 
> *The Italian Aspide, basically a licensed version of the American Sparrow, is similarly employed as both an air-to-air and surface-to-air missile, and in the later role it is launched from both ships and ground platforms. The AIM-7E Sparrow entered service in 1962 and was widely used as a standard for other variants such as the Sky Flash (UK) and Aspide (Italy). Alenia Difesa offers a complete range of systems, including the air to air and surface to air systems based on Aspide missile (Spada, Skyguard, Albatros, ARAMIS). *
> *The Chinese PL-11 medium-range AAM is based on the Aspide, which was acquired by China in the late 1980s for use in the air-to-air roles, and as with the American and Italian version, subsequently in the LY-60 system modified for both ground and naval air defence applications. In reaction to the Tiananmen Square massacre, the European Council--an EU decision-making body comprised of ministers from EU member countries--imposed several sanctions in June 1989, including "an embargo on trade in arms with China." The deliveries of Italian Aspide air-to-air missiles appear to have been made in connection with pre-embargo agreements. Although a contract for the Aspide system has been signed with Italian firm Alinea, the government in Rome had not given its permission to export the missiles to Cyprus, fearing the deployment would only fuel existing tensions. *
> 
> *Through Alenia Difesa, Finmeccanica offers a complete range of systems, including the surface to air systems based on the Aspide missile (Spada, Skyguard, Albatros, ARAMIS).*
> 
> *Specifications - Skyguard SAM*
> Capacity discovery radar 20 Km
> N. fire channels 2
> N. ready missiles to the launch 12
> Time reaction arranges 11 sec
> The maximum capacity 10 Km
> Minimal capacity 750 m
> The maximum quota 3.5 Km approximately
> Guidance system homing semiactive
> Weight of the missile 220 Kg approximately
> maximum speed of the missile 650 m/sec
> Single-shot hit probability (SSKP) 80%



1. Spada 2000 which equips PAF and not Pakistan Navy.
2. It is land based system and not a ship based system. 
3. It has not proven capability against anti ship missiles, much less supersonic missile.
4. It has semi active homing, which is not ideal missile interception. 

*Spada 2000 with 20-25 KM range and 60 Km tracking range is similar to Akash system and no one would call Akash an anti-missile. *

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## The SC

ares said:


> 1. Spada 2000 which equips PAF and not Pakistan Navy.
> 2. It is land based system and not a ship based system.
> 3. It has not proven capability against anti ship missiles, much less supersonic missile.
> 4. It has semi active homing, which is not ideal missile interception.
> 
> *Spada 2000 with 20-25 KM range and 60 Km tracking range is similar to Akash system and no one would call Akash an anti-missile. *


What about the LY-60?


----------



## ares

The SC said:


> What about the LY-60?



All the same reason plus.

LY-60 is even worse that Spada 2000, was copied from the earliest version of Aspide, after west embargoed weapons sales to China, due to Tiananmen square massacre.

Developed in early late 80s, early 90s

12-18km range, Semi active.


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## The SC

ares said:


> All the same reason plus.
> 
> LY-60 is even worse that Spada 2000, was copied from the earliest version of Aspide, after west embargoed weapons sales to China, due to Tiananmen square massacre.
> 
> Developed in early late 80s, early 90s
> 
> 12-18km range, Semi active.



Brahmos was copied from still yet an older version of a russian cruise missile, the Onyx.
Please read the full article, it has all the answers for you. And this was only one possibility with many variants inclusing ship based one, it is even underlined.
Hope you are not trolling!


----------



## ares

The SC said:


> Brahmos was copied from still yet an older version of a russian cruise missile, the Onyx.
> Please read the full article, it has all the answers for you. And this was only one possibility with many variants inclusing ship based one, it is even underlined.
> Hope you are not trolling!



Wether Brahmos was copied or not copied from yakhont..it is still state of the art missile, with no western of Chinese equivalent.

LY60 N is no where state of the art, it is a run of the mill system, It is deployed only on Type 21 'destroyers' of Pakistan navy. 

With 18km range , it hardly an anti aircraft missile, much less an anti missile.


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## Bornubus

I have few questions?

Why are we rely so much on only high end Brahmos...i know PN has no chance against it...but is it mean that other Anti ship missiles in our inventory ....becomes redundant like.... KH 31 .... KH 35 and harpoon when it fired from Mig 29k or p8i?


what about Dhanush ....in what scenarios...is it against large battle groups or just for coastal attack?

@ares
@NKVD


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## A2Z

NKVD said:


> your Comparison of Pakistan with Israel is Hilarious.Best of Luck


Not comparing Pakistan and Israel, comparing the situation and relationship. People often say Pakistan is China's Israel.


Bornubus said:


> you never repelled us 65


The attack on Lahore was.


Bornubus said:


> After 2008 there was no major terrorist attacks in India ever wonder why"??


Govt behind Parliament attack, 26/11: Ishrat probe officer - The Times of India


Omega007 said:


> Seriously!!You know what - why don't you make it 50:1 or even better............500:1 !!Kiddo,do you even know that back in 65,Indian Army was actually out numbered by Pakistani Army in terms of Tanks and medium artillery??But how would you know,neither do I expect a madrassa scum like you have an iota of know wrt this things.


Next thing you might say is that Pakistan used nukes in 65. Wont you?


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## Bornubus

@A2Z

Sorry i don't indulge myself in conspiracy theories.......BTW why did you detained that social worker in Jail if the indian govt behind 26/11


Also plZ file a defamation case against your then Interior minister who acknowledged Pakistanis involvement


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## Omega007

A2Z said:


> Next thing you might say is that Pakistan used nukes in 65. Wont you?



Nah,do not confuse me with yourself bro!!By the way,enough off topic discussion,let us do the talking at somewhere else,on the some other time.............kapise??


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## A2Z

Omega007 said:


> Nah,do not confuse me with yourself bro!!By the way,enough off topic discussion,let us do the talking at somewhere else,on the some other time.............kapise??

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## vsdave2302

Basel said:


> Dude I have discussed this topic on board F-22P and they laughed and said let Indians on net say what they like but their Navy knows that we can defend our ports and coastlines.


 
My dear friend,

Some time you sound hilarious.


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## NKVD

A2Z said:


> Not comparing Pakistan and Israel, comparing the situation and relationship. People often say Pakistan is China's Israel.


Really where was this Friend of Yours in 65,71 or 99.Nevertheless Its Not Very Long Ago Pakistani Generals Were Lauding Same With US-Pak Relationship What's it Status Today??Is Lesson For You Guys
So,Stop Your Fan-boyish Lauding on Others Achievements. And Understand One Core Fact of Diplomatic Relationship.That Relationship BtW Nations Lies On Self-interest Nothing More or Less


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## ruby007

A2Z said:


> So you are saying in case of such a conflict all the IN ships and aircrafts would be sent to western coast and eastern coast will have nothing? Everything would be left on 'your friends'?



Even when you were friends with China During the past wars and tension times almost all of the major warships from eastern fleet were sent to wesstern coast. And people like you should wake up to the reality that China would never take sides to fight a war that's not her's... I repeatedly told this to the idiot pomegranate even asked if he can present me a single sane Chinese who don't agree on this, but i never got reply from him.

China is just a Rival, but not in a position to fight a war on behalf of Pakistan from her China gets nothing...I mean think about it, just like Pakistan having territorial issues with India, china too have land issue, that's bigger than J&K i guess. and china is not able to attack india and take her land back, then why would China attack India for Pakistan and loose trade values worth 100 Billions????


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## Gufi

ruby007 said:


> I repeatedly told this to the idiot pomegranate


that is not tolerated here


ruby007 said:


> Even when you were friends with China During the past wars and tension times almost all of the major warships from eastern fleet were sent to wesstern coast. And people like you should wake up to the reality that China would never take sides to fight a war that's not her's... I repeatedly told this to the idiot pomegranate even asked if he can present me a single sane Chinese who don't agree on this, but i never got reply from him.


China will not fight a war but it can take advantage of open seas or land with weak troop movement in war times the lines of ethical and correct get blurred. So they will take advantage by taking back their land
other then that Pakistan does not need China to physically fight a war, their help in R&D is enough. We can manage ourselves the maximum that will happen is a lot of nucs and the people are ready for that....

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## NKVD

Gufi said:


> China will not fight a war but it can take advantage of open seas or land with weak troop movement in war times the lines of ethical and correct get blurred. So they will take advantage by taking back their land
> other then that Pakistan does not need China to physically fight a war, their help in R&D is enough. We can manage ourselves the maximum that will happen is a lot of nucs and the people are ready for that....


Diplomacy is 24/7 Process Right Now We are Talking here And Other Equations Are Playing Elsewhere
Great opportunities for Indo-US maritime cooperation: Pentagon - Economic Times
India, US defence officials to draw roadmap for collaboration - Economic Times


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## Basel

ares said:


> Nirbhay and tomahawk have nothing in common except they are both cruise missiles..however Babur and tomahawk..same design, same navigation.
> 
> Brhamos is Indo-Russian joint venture, Onyx is Russian missile, how can you call it knock off..they are designed by the same country.
> 
> View attachment 198611
> 
> 
> *Regardless the most advanced vessel in your Navy, far below power, than even India's indigenous corvettes.*



Whom you are trying to fool by saying nirbhay is not inspired by Tomahawk, all current subsonic CMs are inspired by US tech and it will continue to be in future in near future, that world will follow US tech development.


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## Basel

vsdave2302 said:


> My dear friend,
> 
> Some time you sound hilarious.



My dear friend all things can not be shared on net. There are many things that PDF members may knew but they may not share it here.


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## Atheria

MK-41 VLS with SM-2 missiles ..simple
I hope VLS systems are retrofitted into our F-22Ps and our OHP


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## ruby007

Gufi said:


> that is not tolerated here
> 
> China will not fight a war but it can take advantage of open seas or land with weak troop movement in war times the lines of ethical and correct get blurred. So they will take advantage by taking back their land
> other then that Pakistan does not need China to physically fight a war, their help in R&D is enough. We can manage ourselves the maximum that will happen is a lot of nucs and the people are ready for that....



please act as an analyst.... During Indo-pak war China taking land from India( AP ) means India is in a two front war.. and we've a strike corpse specially designed to take care of Chinese adventures inno AP. During all the past indo-pak wars China had land problem with India and China had a perfect opertunity take AP back while India was weak on eastern border, Why didn't China do that???? in 99 During Kargil war Chinese Did try to take a indian deserted airbase in Ladak but indo tibetan border police was soon alerted and mounted some defence on the field. 

And China has no territorial problem in Indian waters and islands. why would they send their Ships here to take advantage ???


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## Gufi

ruby007 said:


> *please act as an analyst*.... During Indo-pak war China taking land from India( AP ) means India is in a two front war.. and we've a strike corpse specially designed to take care of Chinese adventures inno AP. During all the past indo-pak wars China had land problem with India and China had a perfect opertunity take AP back while India was weak on eastern border, Why didn't China do that???? in 99 During Kargil war Chinese Did try to take a indian deserted airbase in Ladak but indo tibetan border police was soon alerted and mounted some defence on the field.


the bold part was not necessary...

China is stronger then it was before
China will not fear Russian intervention as China has improved relations 

China knows that normal diplomacy has failed in all land problems
China knows unless it intervenes there will be a nuclear war which is against its interests.



> other then that Pakistan does not need China to physically fight a war, their help in R&D is enough


that is also something I did say... I postulated the if based on current events and situational awareness

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## vsdave2302

Basel said:


> My dear friend all things can not be shared on net. There are many things that PDF members may knew but they may not share it here.


 

When an American analyst raises the voice that Brahmos can not be defended but you and many like you are confident that Pakistan can defend that. I can wish you good luck and nothing else.

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## monitor

Basel said:


> My dear friend all things can not be shared on net. There are many things that PDF members may knew but they may not share it here.



Pakistan/India is not any super power country who could develop any ultra modern secret weapons then other country so i don't think Pakistan or India could have anything special treat for each other .


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## ruby007

Gufi said:


> the bold part was not necessary...
> 
> China is stronger then it was before
> China will not fear Russian intervention as China has improved relations
> 
> China knows that normal diplomacy has failed in all land problems
> China knows unless it intervenes there will be a nuclear war which is against its interests.
> 
> that is also something I did say... I postulated the if based on current events and situational awareness



Well then my apology for the bold part

Same way India is much stronger than before.

We don't need anyone's Intervention.. if you still insist we've other countries that can intervene 

To begin with, Chinese know long before 62 that India would never give up AP. but still they've never tried when they had the chance of taking it back.

No... you are wrong, Only China entering in a war risks the use of Nukes. India is not that fool to break the Pakistani nuclear threshold..


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## Penguin

aazar said:


> I wonder if Pakistan feels any kind of threat from Russian missile which India claims to be home made. Pakistan has RAAD missile too which is also cruise missile. It is enough to destroy already sinking Indian naval fleet.


It would be silly not to feel a threat. The air launched Ra'ad cruisemissile is designed to attack *fixed *enemy *installations* (such as radar posts, command nodes and stationarysuface to air missile launchers) at stand-off range, keeping the launching aircraft away from enemy air defence systems. IMHO it is useless against navy ships, unless anchored somewhere or in port. Would you care to explain what you mean by your last sentence? There is nothing sinking about the IN.



bloo said:


> As I said cm400 is an ASM I doubt it has sea skimming ability without the possibility of reduced range if at all. It flies from up to down, completely linear trajectory and makes head on interception easy for SAMs unlike Brahmos which uses the S-manuever.
> You are putting too much emphasis on speed there are many missiles faster than Brahmos but that's not what makes it special, its Brahmos' asymmetric trajectory and mach speeds all throughout its flight which makes detection and engagement extremely hard. Even if it is detected it will already be too late to destroy it with anything.


CM400 is a high-diver not a seaskimmer. Compare to Soviet/Russian AS-16 Kickback, but with more modern guidance
AS-16 Kickback - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Basel

vsdave2302 said:


> When an American analyst raises the voice that Brahmos can not be defended but you and many like you are confident that Pakistan can defend that. I can wish you good luck and nothing else.



Dear US have a habit of down playing their capabilities remember how they make Iraq a power before first Gulf war, and what real situation was?

@Penguin what is you opinion about Brahmos? can Phalnax & HHQ7 stop them which are mounted on PN ships?? Also many Indian claim that Brahmos is more deadly and effective against ships then CM-400AKG, what is your opinion??

BTW PN officer told me on F-22P that Phalnax can hit 81 rounds to any supersonic missiles at 1500 meters effectively in last ditch effort and they can't avoid its detection and response.


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## Penguin

Basel said:


> @Penguin what is you opinion about Brahmos? can Phalnax & HHQ7 stop them which are mounted on PN ships?? Also many Indian claim that Brahmos is more deadly and effective against ships then CM-400AKG, what is your opinion??


Phalanx, Goalkeeper etc can all hit supersonic targets. It is just that with those speeds, even if you destroy the missile close in, the debris (including unspent missile fuel) will still hit and damage your ship. Hence the need to put the moment of kill farther out, away from the ship.

Brahmos, like Moskit or Krypton or Club 3M-54 are all dangerous. But relatively easy to detect by radar, IIR/Thermal and ESM, and all rely mainly on active radar for hitting their target, thus are susceptable to ECM. Not invincible.

CM-400AKG makes a terminal dive to mach 5 rather than just mach 2-3 and imho is more difficult to kill in the terminal stage. However, prior to reaching terminal stage, it flies a high(er) flight path, which makes it more detectable sooner. So, there is a trade off. It is not a simple comparison.

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## Gufi

ruby007 said:


> No... you are wrong, Only China entering in a war risks the use of Nukes. India is not that fool to break the Pakistani nuclear threshold..


Define the thresholds please and tell me what type of war will be fought in your eyes


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## Mitro

Ofcourse IN will defend and are very professional navy no doubt about it. but PN has Missile that are proven in war and Brahmos is not proven so cannot say same for them.



QUOTE="ni8mare, post: 6844492, member: 146128"]we do know that brahmos is 300+km .............what ever
ok lets agree with you .............
now consider this when PN do same ..........means PN use AShm will IN will able to defend or IN will be in the bottom of the sea?


so we dont have NCW...........


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## wiseone2

Penguin said:


> Phalanx, Goalkeeper etc can all hit supersonic targets. It is just that with those speeds, even if you destroy the missile close in, the debris (including unspent missile fuel) will still hit and damage your ship. Hence the need to put the moment of kill farther out, away from the ship.
> 
> Brahmos, like Moskit or Krypton or Club 3M-54 are all dangerous. But relatively easy to detect by radar, IIR/Thermal and ESM, and all rely mainly on active radar for hitting their target, thus are susceptable to ECM. Not invincible.
> 
> CM-400AKG makes a terminal dive to mach 5 rather than just mach 2-3 and imho is more difficult to kill in the terminal stage. However, prior to reaching terminal stage, it flies a high(er) flight path, which makes it more detectable sooner. So, there is a trade off. It is not a simple comparison.



can you defend against multiple missiles ?


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## Penguin

wiseone2 said:


> can you defend against multiple missiles ?


Why do you think we got VLS systems for SAMs and multifunction radars like APAR.

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## QAMARSHAZADQURESHI

monitor said:


> _It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
> How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [


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## monitor

QAMARSHAZADQURESHI said:


>


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## John Reese

ok


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## kaonalpha

By not giving an F****.


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Brahmos is not the wonder super weapon its being made out to be. It is a decent weapon system no denying it.

It is not like now PNS and for that matter any one standing in the way of this CM is just helpless. Nonsense.

The best defence PNS has is ECM and jammers. But these systems are for overall defensive sepctrum.

PNS is already developing counter strategies only they won't say much... given their budget they will never go ship for shop but more 20/80 configuration. Which is quite smart.

SPD/PNS needs to come up with an umbrella of solutions for their coastal defences... no one is going to do any blockades... apart from rhetorical. Deterence is quite solid for now.

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## Bratva

By Reciting these ayat - e - Kareema

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## Delnavaz B

Bratva said:


> By Reciting these ayat - e - Kareema


Plus retaliating with C802, Harpoon and CM-400AKG or before Indian attack we would unleashed what best we have.


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## Super Falcon

Pakistan defence think tank completely forgets navy when modernizing it's focus on army this is why only 1 missile like sarbjeet made for navy but for army so many missile

Fact is enemy will attack from sea after it our army can't do anything once PN destroyed army has to fight at sea shores too

Better equip navy and specially Marines do wonders for us

For time being army should stop it's modernization pace let nave have some funds


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## 90ArsalanLeo

kaku1 said:


> Umm, Nirbhay. BrahMos-2 and Barak-8 ER.



Umm even nirbhay prototype hasnt hit 1 target it keeps deviating from trajectory and crashing. Its not ready. Nirbhay & Brahmos are not SAM missiles lol



Indian Patriot said:


> And the IN aircraft carrier is for show? LOL!! IN will take the fight to Pakistan. PN will always be fighting a defensive war.
> 
> Brahmos is anti-ship not land-attack. Nirbhay with a range of 1500 km is for that role. By the time you induct C-602 IN will induct Brahmos-2. PN cannot match IN in at least another 20 years. PN frigates weigh 2,200 tonnes. IN Shivalik class is 6,000 tonne.



Like IN took the show in 65 & 71 wars in 65 war ur majority navy ships didnt even left the mumbai port. I have to given IN the credit of being superior in technology but its not everything in battle. Nirbhay isnt ready ur 3rd trial in 2015 was a failure. We already have C-602 missiles since 2014-15


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## Tamilnadu

90ArsalanLeo said:


> Umm even nirbhay prototype hasnt hit 1 target it keeps deviating from trajectory and crashing. Its not ready. Nirbhay & Brahmos are not SAM missiles lol
> 
> 
> 
> Like IN took the show in 65 & 71 wars in 65 war ur majority navy ships didnt even left the mumbai port. I have to given IN the credit of being superior in technology but its not everything in battle. Nirbhay isnt ready ur 3rd trial in 2015 was a failure. We already have C-602 missiles since 2014-15


Now that India has entered the missile tech restriction group,not just nirbhay ,many other missiles will be tested and inducted.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

The balance of power in the region will always be maintained. The beligerent hegemon will remain constrained. For peace, stabilit and development. PNS has been the most neglected force. But things have been changing without much brovado. Within five years the results on the ground i.e. surface/subsurface will demonstrate this. PNS won't waste money on ship for ship build up rather a doctronal change making all these rhetorical advantage null and void.

Pak forces will keep the possibility of any agression unbearably costly for the beligerent hegemon. No worries.


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## tarrar

India is obsessed & going nuts on only functional missile in their arsenal.


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## Danish saleem

i think, brahmos maximum range is around 300Km, for firing it Indian ships have to reach within the radius of 300Km of PN ships, and have to Face JF-17's before tracking and firing the Missile, and also remember our RAAD missile have a range of 350 KM and they will be fired from Air. and i dont think Indian navy have a capability to track RAAD or hit the Plane flying over 350Km away.


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## BABA AGHORI

Danish saleem said:


> i think, brahmos maximum range is around 300Km, for firing it Indian ships have to reach within the radius of 300Km of PN ships, and have to Face JF-17's before tracking and firing the Missile, and also remember our RAAD missile have a range of 350 KM and they will be fired from Air. and i dont think Indian navy have a capability to track RAAD or hit the Plane flying over 350Km away.



1- Will PN be in docks in war times, and will not come in open waters. ?
2- RAAD is a subsonic missile, do you think that IN will not be having there SAM ready for it, and what make you think IN radar cannot track RAAD ?
3- Check what Global players think BRAMOS actual range could be.
4- A single S400 battery along the Gujarat coast is good enough to track and sanitize complete Air Cover JF17 thinking to provide to PN.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

LACM can/will be adapted into AShM, thus providing PNS with range advantage. It is really question of time now.
Also, enhanced ECM will help netuarlise any defensive measure by the belligerent hegemon.

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## GiG

Pakistan NAVY can effectively tackle any threats posed by brahmos in the following ways
Pakistan navy first job is to defend the exclusive economic zone and country seaports
Second Job is to deter the enemy for taking any offensive action against Pakistan see assets
I will briefly explain how the navy will achieve this
1)Defense of exclusive economic zone and seaport
-Pakistan Exclusive Economic Zone extends to 350 nautical miles which can be defend against on sea targets using the new AZB missile(Supposedly Yj-62) with range of 400 km+ ,ZD K-3 will provide target acquisition and missile lock to AZB missile
-Zulficar and Tariq class frigates will be used to patrol sea lane as far as 100 nautical miles from shore for ASW operations and intrusion prevention in case of target Detection is failed by ZD K-3 
-P-3 will be used for ASW operations with in the Pakistan territory 
2)Offensive operation
-Offensive operation against enemy will be conducted by 
1)Agosta 90 B Submarines (Immune from brahoms)
2)Jf 17/Mirage 5/3 with exocet and C0802 (Immune from brahoms) 
3)Azmat Class Craft will be used to lauch surprise attack with in enemy territory (The tactic will be quickly enter in in war zone launch a C 802 and leave the war zone ,same tactic used by US artillery in first gulf war) Enemy can see the Attackers but when they start to counter attack the azmat class will be out of range

While many other possible scenarios can be drawn from current capabilities of Pakistan navy but the current scenario is one the most effective and raelistic

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## khanmubashir

monitor said:


> _It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
> How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.


sea variant of hq9 and long ranger sensors + weapons which can detect and destroy indian ships before they can brings ours in brhamos range


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## Danish saleem

BABA AGHORI said:


> 1- Will PN be in docks in war times, and will not come in open waters. ?
> 2- RAAD is a subsonic missile, do you think that IN will not be having there SAM ready for it, and what make you think IN radar cannot track RAAD ?
> 3- Check what Global players think BRAMOS actual range could be.
> 4- A single S400 battery along the Gujarat coast is good enough to track and sanitize complete Air Cover JF17 thinking to provide to PN.



bro,

so u think your ships will fire the missiles sitting in their docks, for doing that they have to came in sea, and also have to face our Subs as well, and S400 not able to hit the cruise Missiles, which is capable of low attitude flying. and i hope you understand what is the characteristics of cruise Missile.


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## asif_hussain

Pakistani Navy seriously lacks any decent SAM they are using almost half a century old ships now only the refurbished OHP class is half a decent ship rest are almost floating targets they maybe okay for patrols in sea in times of peace but without a credible 24/7 air support and sam coverage they are no match for IN which is fielding AESA radars multi layered defence and one of the most potent sea skimming hypersonic ASHM.

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## satishkumarcsc

Yes they can if they can get their hands on Barak 8 or the SeaRAM. Both of them are specifically designed to meet threats like the BhraMos. And I don't think CHinese have a reliable system to do this.


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## BABA AGHORI

Danish saleem said:


> bro,
> 
> so u think your ships will fire the missiles sitting in their docks, for doing that they have to came in sea, and also have to face our Subs as well, and S400 not able to hit the cruise Missiles, which is capable of low attitude flying. and i hope you understand what is the characteristics of cruise Missile.



I stated s400 to sanitiz jf17, and who said low altitude slow moving cruise cannot b tracked and brought down by systems like s400 and spiders, bark 8 ?
And, what make you think, PN in offensive formation will not be having anti sub system scanning clearing the surrounding waters well within time ?
And if PN will be doing that, what make IN stop doing the same, when IN has system like P8I and ASW ship fleets.


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## nomi007

SAME
same how can Indian navy defend itself from 
*CX-1 Missile Systems*
*&*
*DF-26
*


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## MKC

BABA AGHORI said:


> I stated s400 to sanitiz jf17, and who said low altitude slow moving cruise cannot b tracked and brought down by systems like s400 and spiders, bark 8 ?
> And, what make you think, PN in offensive formation will not be having anti sub system scanning clearing the surrounding waters well within time ?
> And if PN will be doing that, what make IN stop doing the same, when IN has system like P8I and ASW ship fleets.


How will we able to track low flying Ra'ad with AESA, don't think about countering it with Barak 8 or AK630?
Which will be launched by low flying 4.75G JF-17 which can't be countered by Su-30MKI or S-400.
PN has Ship launched & air-launched Exocet which we don't have Harpoon, Sizzler, Exocet & BrahMos.
How will IN counter Babur which has 750 km range launched from S-20 that too is *low flying AShM,* does matter these hasn't come till now, while IN will have Scorpenes you know which is better.
P8I won't come in front of JF-17, even P8I can't track S-20s.
You know IN ASW ship also won't come in front of 4.75G JF17.
Do you know about surprise power of PN Azmat class stealth ships or sorry these don't have blue water or self-defence capability but will be defended by JF17 & Replenishment Ships with increase their range.

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## Akasa

satishkumarcsc said:


> Yes they can if they can get their hands on Barak 8 or the SeaRAM. Both of them are specifically designed to meet threats like the BhraMos. And I don't think CHinese have a reliable system to do this.



The Chinese are using the HHQ-10, which operates in a similar fashion to the SeaRAM system to bring down supersonic cruise missiles. It is an infrared-homing (augmented with RF guidance) fire-and-forget weapon.





For long-range interception, the HHQ-16/B/G can be used for low-flying targets:





The last line of defense would be the Type 1130 CIWS, which has a maximum firing rate of 9000-11000 rounds per minute. According to defense reports, it can intercept missiles traveling up to *Mach 4* and with a 96% success rate.






Of course, there are numerous defense measures under development as well, such as the *FM-3000* SAM:





Potential countermeasures may even include laser, of which the Chinese have tested several models (called the Low Altitude Guard II):

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## BABA AGHORI

MKC said:


> How will we able to track low flying Ra'ad with AESA, don't think about countering it with Barak 8 or AK630?
> Which will be launched by low flying 4.75G JF-17 which can't be countered by Su-30MKI or S-400.
> PN has Ship launched & air-launched Exocet which we don't have Harpoon, Sizzler, Exocet & BrahMos.
> How will IN counter Babur which has 750 km range launched from S-20 that too is *low flying AShM,* does matter these hasn't come till now, while IN will have Scorpenes you know which is better.
> P8I won't come in front of JF-17, even P8I can't track S-20s.
> You know IN ASW ship also won't come in front of 4.75G JF17.
> Do you know about surprise power of PN Azmat class stealth ships or sorry these don't have blue water or self-defence capability but will be defended by JF17 & Replenishment Ships with increase their range.


epic.. 4.75 generation completes your post mate...

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## masud

adding more and more most advanced submarin............
adding more and more all round capability both offencive and defencive weapons in a ship and the size of this ship as small ship as possible................


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## randomradio

Danish saleem said:


> i think, brahmos maximum range is around 300Km, for firing it Indian ships have to reach within the radius of 300Km of PN ships, and have to Face JF-17's before tracking and firing the Missile, and also remember our RAAD missile have a range of 350 KM and they will be fired from Air. and i dont think Indian navy have a capability to track RAAD or hit the Plane flying over 350Km away.



Brahmos's range is 600Km. It is software governed and will soon be removed because we are not part of MTCR.

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## Arsalan

randomradio said:


> Brahmos's range is 600Km. It is software governed and will soon be removed because we are not part of MTCR.


Brahmos is 290 KM as per official Indian statements. 
You need to look that up!


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## randomradio

Arsalan said:


> Brahmos is 290 KM as per official Indian statements.
> You need to look that up!



The 290Km is governed by the guidance. The minute Brahmos touches 290Km, the warhead explodes. Now that we are part of MTCR, the guidance governed range will be removed.

This was confirmed by DRDO Chief. He said this when giving a presentation on Brahmos with a range up to 600Km and LRCM with a range that goes from 600Km to 1000km.

https://defence.pk/threads/stunning-info-about-indians-missile-projects-by-dr-saraswat.339420/

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## Ultima Thule

satishkumarcsc said:


> Yes they can if they can get their hands on Barak 8 or the SeaRAM. Both of them are specifically designed to meet threats like the BhraMos. And I don't think CHinese have a reliable system to do this.


yeah yeah you'r 70's era old invincible BhraMouse is world beating, and Chinese latest anti-ship missiles is junk because they are unreliable, how do you know that their system is unreliable? because they are Chinese  what's logic you have what a poor little indians who lives in their fools paradise ohhhhhhhh i really scare that old, crapy, useless and over-hyped weapon


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## satishkumarcsc

pakistanipower said:


> yeah yeah you'r 70's era old invincible BhraMouse is world beating, and Chinese latest anti-ship missiles junk because they are unreliable, how do you know that their system is unreliable? because they are Chinese  what's logic you have what a poor little indians who lives in their fools paradise ohhhhhhhh i really scare that old, crapy, useless and over-hyped weapon



Stop cheerleading and why don't you read about chinese weapons and what they are based on. You will understand why I tell you this.

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## Ultima Thule

satishkumarcsc said:


> Stop cheerleading and why don't you read about chinese weapons and what they are based on. You will understand why I tell you this.


its burns burns badly isn't Mr i know Chinese weapon development and system better than you, give me one example that Chinese weapon system is unreliable? go use the *BURNOL *on your a$$$$$$ its pain killer


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## satishkumarcsc

pakistanipower said:


> its burns burns badly isn't Mr i know Chinese weapon development and system better than you, give me one example that Chinese weapon system is unreliable? go use the *BURNOL *on your a$$$$$$ its pain killer



Only one question...DO you have it in your Arsenal?

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## Ultima Thule

satishkumarcsc said:


> Stop cheerleading and why don't you read about chinese weapons and what they are based on. You will understand why I tell you this.


because you have know idea how to prove that the Chinese is unreliable, go live on your fantasy world and your wet dream



satishkumarcsc said:


> Only one question...DO you have it in your Arsenal?


you are deviating from your argument, tell me how do you know that Chinese system is unreliable?


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## Arsalan

randomradio said:


> The 290Km is governed by the guidance. The minute Brahmos touches 290Km, the warhead explodes. Now that we are part of MTCR, the guidance governed range will be removed.
> 
> This was confirmed by DRDO Chief. He said this when giving a presentation on Brahmos with a range up to 600Km and LRCM with a range that goes from 600Km to 1000km.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/stunning-info-about-indians-missile-projects-by-dr-saraswat.339420/


Bro do not mix "future projects" with current capabilities just because they share a name. The initial statement was like Brahmos *have* 600KM range which do not have.

Thank you for clarifying it now, may be you can edit that post as well and add that Brahmos *WILL HAVE* 600km range!!

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## asif_hussain

Arsalan said:


> Bro do not mix "future projects" with current capabilities just because they share a name. The initial statement was like Brahmos *have* 600KM range which do not have.
> 
> Thank you for clarifying it now, may be you can edit that post as well and add that Brahmos *WILL HAVE* 600km range!!


effective range of a missile is a very nuanced subject with multiple variables which affects the range greatly even a warhead change can increase or decrease the range the main factors always being trajectory and altitude brahmos is a very heavy missile for its class and purpose and contains lot of fuel comparing it with other missiles with similar weight its safe to extrapolate it can go upto 600 KMs in a straight line with a high altitude and low sea skimming in terminal phase (ideal scenario for enemy ships with poor air detection and defense) and go as low as 140 KMs in a full trajectory Sea skimming mode (ideal for ships with good air defenses) although the actual figures may vary but they will be in vicinity of these figures of course now if someone claiming it can go above 1000+ Kms they need to get their head checked.

besides MTCR does not apply to missiles with warhead less than 500kgs and hardly any ASHM carries that kind of warhead MTCR was built to specifically stop proliferation of nuclear capable ballistic missiles and this restriction is easily skipped by supplying the guidance and seeker tech and let the client build it in house and of course no client will limit their missile's range knowingly but yeah thats the way it is.

thats the exact same way china supplies missile to pakistan and your new coastal battery also got assembled the same way its pretty much the standard way to dodge MTCR restrictions

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## randomradio

Arsalan said:


> Bro do not mix "future projects" with current capabilities just because they share a name. The initial statement was like Brahmos *have* 600KM range which do not have.
> 
> Thank you for clarifying it now, may be you can edit that post as well and add that Brahmos *WILL HAVE* 600km range!!



No. That's wrong. Initial version, even Brahmos Block 1 has 600Km range. They are software blocked through the guidance, which is meaningless anyway, since India made the guidance.

And there is no "future projects" for Brahmos 1. Next up is Brahmos NG and then Brahmos II.


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## Arsalan

randomradio said:


> No. That's wrong. Initial version, even Brahmos Block 1 has 600Km range. They are software blocked through the guidance, which is meaningless anyway, since India made the guidance.
> 
> And there is no "future projects" for Brahmos 1. Next up is Brahmos NG and then Brahmos II.



Dear you need to get all those sources updated then if you have suddenly realized the true range of the missile 
ALL the sources clearly state 290 Km as range and by future projects i means Brahmos NG and II and those too have same claimed range of 290 KM. Now either you have access to some highly sensitive information or are just misguided/guiding! 
Dont take my word for it,, just look it up on internet and search on the most respectable of sources if you want to. The operational range of Brahmos is 290 KM, if it is because of software of because the fuel is expensive so they just put that much in it is not what i am concerned with. 



Hannah_Kravitz said:


> effective range of a missile is a very nuanced subject with multiple variables which affects the range greatly even a warhead change can increase or decrease the range the main factors always being trajectory and altitude brahmos is a very heavy missile for its class and purpose and contains lot of fuel comparing it with other missiles with similar weight its safe to extrapolate it can go upto 600 KMs in a straight line with a high altitude and low sea skimming in terminal phase (ideal scenario for enemy ships with poor air detection and defense) and go as low as 140 KMs in a full trajectory Sea skimming mode (ideal for ships with good air defenses) although the actual figures may vary but they will be in vicinity of these figures ofcourse now if someone claiming it can go above 1000+ Kms they need to get their head checked


Yup i understand this. Just stating what the official claims are and that is it  
Surely you can fire one without a warhead to go even a little bit further but perhaps there is a good reason people mentioned operational range when talking about there systems and i think it is appropriate to use that don't you think?


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## randomradio

Arsalan said:


> Bro do not mix "future projects" with current capabilities just because they share a name. The initial statement was like Brahmos *have* 600KM range which do not have.
> 
> Thank you for clarifying it now, may be you can edit that post as well and add that Brahmos *WILL HAVE* 600km range!!



http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...ic-super-weapon-capability/article3994856.ece
*October 13, 2012 *


> “The integration of the X-555 and BrahMos navigation systems has produced a super rocket with a sub-strategic capability above its tactical range. Fired from land, air and sea platforms, it can hit targets at ranges of *300 to 500 kilometres* and is also capable of carrying a nuclear warhead,” said the unnamed Russian official.





Arsalan said:


> Dear you need to get all those sources updated then if you have suddenly realized the true range of the missile
> ALL the sources clearly state 290 Km as range and by future projects i means Brahmos NG and II and those too have same claimed range of 290 KM. Now either you have access to some highly sensitive information or are just misguided/guiding!
> Dont take my word for it,, just look it up on internet and search on the most respectable of sources if you want to. The operational range of Brahmos is 290 KM, if it is because of software of because the fuel is expensive so they just put that much in it is not what i am concerned with.



It's open source knowledge. You are in denial.

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## Arsalan

randomradio said:


> http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...ic-super-weapon-capability/article3994856.ece
> *October 13, 2012 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's open source knowledge. You are in denial.


Yup someone sure is in denial!! 

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/brahmos.htm

http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10

http://www.janes.com/article/60876/india-aims-to-supply-brahmos-cruise-missiles-to-vietnam

http://www.janes.com/article/45334/brahmos-tested-to-the-limit-id14d1

Yes it must be me as thehindu is far more reliable then janes, military today and all those other sources out there. 

Just like always, debating anything with you is a futile exercise.  
Looking forward for an excuse to deny all these sources,, NOT!!

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## Ultima Thule

Arsalan said:


> Yup someone sure is in denial!!
> 
> http://www.military-today.com/missiles/brahmos.htm
> 
> http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/60876/india-aims-to-supply-brahmos-cruise-missiles-to-vietnam
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/45334/brahmos-tested-to-the-limit-id14d1
> 
> Yes it must be me as thehindu is far more reliable then janes, military today and all those other sources out there.
> 
> Just like always, debating anything with you is a futile exercise.
> Looking forward for an excuse to deny all these sources,, NOT!!


they will not understand you sir



satishkumarcsc said:


> Only one question...DO you have it in your Arsenal?


so you have no answer for me, you are nothing but just a keyboard warrior


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## ZAC1

any new about zarb anti ship missile ?


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## randomradio

Arsalan said:


> Yup someone sure is in denial!!
> 
> http://www.military-today.com/missiles/brahmos.htm
> 
> http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/60876/india-aims-to-supply-brahmos-cruise-missiles-to-vietnam
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/45334/brahmos-tested-to-the-limit-id14d1
> 
> Yes it must be me as thehindu is far more reliable then janes, military today and all those other sources out there.
> 
> Just like always, debating anything with you is a futile exercise.
> Looking forward for an excuse to deny all these sources,, NOT!!



So DRDO Chief is not a source? All these websites are sources? Right. Please continue living in denial.

290Km is only the official figure. The actual figure was always more than that.

http://rbth.com/science_and_tech/20...rsonic_missiles_behave_like_wolves_28781.html


> The missiles have a range of more than 372.8 miles.



It has a range of 608Km. Brahmos was made from the P-800. At least this should prove it.


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## Arsalan

pakistanipower said:


> they will not understand you sir


You were right!!


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## asif_hussain

Arsalan said:


> Dear you need to get all those sources updated then if you have suddenly realized the true range of the missile
> ALL the sources clearly state 290 Km as range and by future projects i means Brahmos NG and II and those too have same claimed range of 290 KM. Now either you have access to some highly sensitive information or are just misguided/guiding!
> Dont take my word for it,, just look it up on internet and search on the most respectable of sources if you want to. The operational range of Brahmos is 290 KM, if it is because of software of because the fuel is expensive so they just put that much in it is not what i am concerned with.
> 
> 
> Yup i understand this. Just stating what the official claims are and that is it
> Surely you can fire one without a warhead to go even a little bit further but perhaps there is a good reason people mentioned operational range when talking about there systems and i think it is appropriate to use that don't you think?


official figures are always not the way to go here countries always underscore them or overstate them depending on what kind of situation they are in for example the official range of agni V is given as 5000kms while it weighs almost 50 tonnes same as a minuteman 3 you can pretty much figure out whats going on here the popeye missile or popeye turbo to be precise have official stated range of 300 kms but its actual range is 2500+ Kms i mean nobody uses a nuclear tipped CM with that low a range especially when its a under water SLCM i guess its the same with ALCM raad used by pakistan its also capable of hitting in excess of 500Kms but stated range is 350 Kms if i reckon.

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## satishkumarcsc

pakistanipower said:


> they will not understand you sir
> 
> 
> so you have no answer for me, you are nothing but just a keyboard warrior



Well I am not going to waste my time on you.

Why don't you first read about the development of the Chinese missiles and ESSM, Barak 1 and Umkhonto before you come and talk to me. And you can understand why I have my doubts regarding the Chinese weapon systems to intercept a salvo fire of Bhramos. You will then understand why Barak 8 and the Sea RAM are a much better option compared to the above missiles I have mentioned.

Above all read about the flight profile and end phase maneuvers of all antiship missiles and flight profiles. Yhen come and discuss about why I am right.


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## randomradio

Hannah_Kravitz said:


> official figures are always not the way to go here countries always underscore them or overstate them depending on what kind of situation they are in for example the official range of agni V is given as 5000kms while it weighs almost 50 tonnes same as a minuteman 3 you can pretty much figure out whats going on here the popeye missile or popeye turbo to be precise have official stated range of 300 kms but its actual range is 2500+ Kms i mean nobody uses a nuclear tipped CM with that low a range especially when its a under water SLCM i guess its the same with ALCM raad used by pakistan its also capable of hitting in excess of 500Kms but stated range is 350 Kms if i reckon.



Yeah, it's simple commonsense. Brahmos and P-800 have the same engines and same design. P-800 has a range of 600Km and Brahmos has a range of 300km, officially.

http://www.aame.in/2013/02/brahmos-cruise-missile-not-bound-by.html



satishkumarcsc said:


> Well I am not going to waste my time on you.
> 
> Why don't you first read about the development of the Chinese missiles and ESSM, Barak 1 and Umkhonto before you come and talk to me. And you can understand why I have my doubts regarding the Chinese weapon systems to intercept a salvo fire of Bhramos. You will then understand why Barak 8 and the Sea RAM are a much better option compared to the above missiles I have mentioned.
> 
> Above all read about the flight profile and end phase maneuvers of all antiship missiles and flight profiles. Yhen come and discuss about why I am right.



Plenty of people around who jump into discussions without knowing much about the subject.

And they also believe the Chinese will hand over their most cutting edge systems to Pak.


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## asif_hussain

randomradio said:


> Yeah, it's simple commonsense. Brahmos and P-800 have the same engines and same design. P-800 has a range of 600Km and Brahmos has a range of 300km, officially.



Sure 300kms officially wink wink


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## Director General

Brahmos can easily travel over 500km


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## randomradio

Hannah_Kravitz said:


> official figures are always not the way to go here countries always underscore them or overstate them depending on what kind of situation they are in for example the official range of agni V is given as 5000kms while it weighs almost 50 tonnes same as a minuteman 3 you can pretty much figure out whats going on here the popeye missile or popeye turbo to be precise have official stated range of 300 kms but its actual range is 2500+ Kms i mean nobody uses a nuclear tipped CM with that low a range especially when its a under water SLCM i guess its the same with ALCM raad used by pakistan its also capable of hitting in excess of 500Kms but stated range is 350 Kms if i reckon.



Israeli weapons are overwhelmingly understated. Even SAMs like Barak NG.


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## asif_hussain

randomradio said:


> Israeli weapons are overwhelmingly understated. Even SAMs like Barak NG.


i'd take being understated everyday of the week and twice on sunday an enemy who is very strong but seriously underestimating you is far easy to defeat than a weak level headed enemy

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## randomradio

Hannah_Kravitz said:


> i'd take being understated everyday of the week and twice on sunday an enemy who is very strong but seriously underestimating you is far easy to defeat than a weak level headed enemy



Israel has no choice but to understate weapons capabilities because they can't survive a loss during war. 

The Russians overstate export grade weapons while understating critical systems.

India understates in order to stave off external political pressure.

China overstates in order to create the perception that it is a heavy weight.

Everybody has a reason.

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## Ultima Thule

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well I am not going to waste my time on you.
> 
> Why don't you first read about the development of the Chinese missiles and ESSM, Barak 1 and Umkhonto before you come and talk to me. And you can understand why I have my doubts regarding the Chinese weapon systems to intercept a salvo fire of Bhramos. You will then understand why Barak 8 and the Sea RAM are a much better option compared to the above missiles I have mentioned.
> 
> Above all read about the flight profile and end phase maneuvers of all antiship missiles and flight profiles. Yhen come and discuss about why I am right.


kid Chinese weapon system is million times better than yours, this place is not for yours go play your toys


randomradio said:


> Yeah, it's simple commonsense. Brahmos and P-800 have the same engines and same design. P-800 has a range of 600Km and Brahmos has a range of 300km, officially.
> 
> http://www.aame.in/2013/02/brahmos-cruise-missile-not-bound-by.html
> 
> 
> 
> Plenty of people around who jump into discussions without knowing much about the subject.
> 
> And they also believe the Chinese will hand over their most cutting edge systems to Pak.



kid Chinese weapon system is million times better than yours, this place is not for yours go play your toys
and how do you know that Chinese weapon system is unreliable and junk, and they can't invent, innovate new thing ? and janes other respected defense site are incorrect you guys knows everything about defense matters,others don't what a poor little loser indians


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## satishkumarcsc

pakistanipower said:


> kid Chinese weapon system is million times better than yours, this place is not for yours go play your toys
> 
> 
> kid Chinese weapon system is million times better than yours, this place is not for yours go play your toys
> and how do you know that Chinese weapon system is unreliable and junk, and they can't invent, innovate new thing ? and janes other respected defense site are incorrect you guys knows everything about defense matters,others don't what a poor little loser indians




Well you are a waste of time.....as I previously mentioned.


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## 艹艹艹

*中国的鹰击12可以在布拉莫斯发射之前将其干掉
Chinese YJ 12 can kill it in Brahmos before the launch*

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## Ultima Thule

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well you are a waste of time.....as I previously mentioned.


and you are mine,you haven't a logic to prove that the Chinese system are unreliable and junk
? you just trolling against china, nothing more you stupid,
you have no points to prove anything against China you idiot



long_ said:


> *中国的鹰击12可以在布拉莫斯发射之前将其干掉
> Chinese YJ 12 can kill it in Brahmos before the launch*


They will not understand you sir, they think all of Chinese weapon system are junk and unreliable, they are blind and the state of denial and lives in their fools paradise

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## 艹艹艹

pakistanipower said:


> and you are mine,you haven't a logic to prove that the Chinese system are unreliable and junk
> ? you just trolling against china, nothing more you stupid,
> you have no points to prove anything against China you idiot
> 
> 
> They will not understand you sir, they think all of Chinese weapon system are junk and unreliable, they are blind and the state of denial and lives in their fools paradise


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## zebra7

Arsalan said:


> Bro do not mix "future projects" with current capabilities just because they share a name. The initial statement was like Brahmos *have* 600KM range which do not have.
> 
> Thank you for clarifying it now, may be you can edit that post as well and add that Brahmos *WILL HAVE* 600km range!!



290 KM is the declared range, to comply the MTCR regulation. Moreover, the range could depend on the flight profile and altitude, how much fuel is filled, and the software control. But the actual range of Brahmos-1 is more than 500 KM for sure. Brahmos-NG, which is in development too have the declared range of the 290 KM, but will be much smaller in size, so that they could be carried by other fighter planes other than MKI.


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## Shockwave

monitor said:


> _It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
> How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.



by praying

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## amardeep mishra

zebra7 said:


> 290 KM is the declared range, to comply the MTCR regulation. Moreover, the range could depend on the flight profile and altitude, how much fuel is filled, and the software control. But the actual range of Brahmos-1 is more than 500 KM for sure. Brahmos-NG, which is in development too have the declared range of the 290 KM, but will be much smaller in size, so that they could be carried by other fighter planes other than MKI.



@zebra7
Actually the true range of brahmos is higher than 300kms however there is a mechanical construct in the engine design that prohibits the range to only 300kms.This was deliberately done by the russians to make it MTCR compliant. We cant modify the ramjet engine as we are bound by the treaty and we are not china! The only way we can enhance the range of this missile is by having the technology of the liquid ramjet-which we are gradually working on.Or somehow we obtain the IPR of russia's liquid ramjet.

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## zebra7

amardeep mishra said:


> @zebra7
> Actually the true range of brahmos is higher than 300kms however there is a mechanical construct in the engine design that prohibits the range to only 300kms.This was deliberately done by the russians to make it MTCR compliant. We cant modify the ramjet engine as we are bound by the treaty and we are not china! The only way we can enhance the range of this missile is by having the technology of the liquid ramjet-which we are gradually working on.Or somehow we obtain the IPR of russia's liquid ramjet.



And What treaty exactly, because as far as I know, it is a JV of two countries, and the product of the Brahmos Aerospace, which have given the order to Godrej Aerospace to construct Brahmos Fuselage and otherparts which is an Indian contribution, and engine motors which is the Russian contributions and for the IA. So all the IPRs related to the development goes to Brahmos Aerospace, and they are the one which had taken various other technologies from other OEMs. Whatever change they have to make, India don't have to work on the technology, rather give their requirements to the Brahmos Aerospace, and when this OEM developed it, IA or IAF will place order.


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## randomradio

amardeep mishra said:


> mechanical construct



Software.


----------



## kṣamā

Guys guys we are far off topic from the intent of the thread. Main topic: How will PN defend itself from Bramhos. Side topic: How will IN defend itself from Babur and Raad. Also the discussion is based on the Systems organic to these forces. It is important that we restraine here from getting into "My dady strongest..." pattern. 



pakistanipower said:


> kid Chinese weapon system is million times better than yours, this place is not for yours go play your toys
> 
> 
> kid Chinese weapon system is million times better than yours, this place is not for yours go play your toys
> and how do you know that Chinese weapon system is unreliable and junk, and they can't invent, innovate new thing ? and janes other respected defense site are incorrect you guys knows everything about defense matters,others don't what a poor little loser indians


 TRUE. Now can we come down to what we have operational in our respective forces and how will those be used in the mentioned scenario?


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## muhammadali233

Indian Patriot said:


> Brahmos has a range of 300 km. And what exactly does PN have in its inventory?


Zarb with range of exactly 300km.



Indian_Patriot said:


> The AIP Agosta 90Bs are the only serious threat from PN. But you can't have all three on station at all times. There will usually be only 1 on station at any one time and in a conflict 2. We can handle 2 measly subs.


8 type 41,aswell.
Reports tell these subs will complete the nuclear triad.


----------



## Ultima Thule

kṣamā said:


> Guys guys we are far off topic from the intent of the thread. Main topic: How will PN defend itself from Bramhos. Side topic: How will IN defend itself from Babur and Raad. Also the discussion is based on the Systems organic to these forces. It is important that we restraine here from getting into "My dady strongest..." pattern.
> 
> TRUE. Now can we come down to what we have operational in our respective forces and how will those be used in the mentioned scenario?


not just Babar and Raad but CM-400AGK, Zarb, C-802, C-803( a sizzler type weapon)


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## MKC

muhammadali233 said:


> Zarb with range of exactly 300km.
> 
> 
> 8 type 41,aswell.
> Reports tell these subs will complete the nuclear triad.


Now tell me which nation completed it's nuclear triad with max $625M submarine?

If that would be possible we wouldn't have made billions of dollars investment in Arihant class project.


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## muhammadali233

MKC said:


> Now tell me which nation completed it's nuclear triad with max $625M submarine?
> 
> If that would be possible we wouldn't have made billions of dollars investment in Arihant class project.


Same was said when pakistan was making nuclear bombs,I read somewhere i don't know where,when the issue of pakistan perusing nuclear tech was brought up into the international media it was said Pakistan with this economy won't be able to develop heck even sustain nuclear tech even if they did manage to get hold of it,they surely won't have any money to develop nuclear delivering tech(missile).You do know now where does Pakistan nuclear capabilities stand now.From 40km-3000km.
Pakistan isn't very stable when it comes to money,the best we have is the element of surprise,develop slowly and gradually,don't announce until is done .tested,tested again.There are alot of advancements being on both sides India can afford to do everything at once and tell the world even before it materialises, whereas we have to do it in batches and in secrecy.
Yes you are right no country has been able to complete it's nuclear triad by spending $625mil a piece but that was the payment for the hull,not the payment for underwater nuclear delivery tech.


----------



## X-2.

Raad....
http://idrw.org/battle-alcms-indias-brahmos-vs-pakistans-raad/


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## GuardianRED

MKC said:


> Now tell me which nation completed it's nuclear triad with max $625M submarine?
> 
> If that would be possible we wouldn't have made billions of dollars investment in Arihant class project.


Plus has there are NO Details of the which Type of Sub is selected or whether the deal HAS be signed officially!


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## amardeep mishra

zebra7 said:


> So all the IPRs related to the development goes to Brahmos Aerospace



@zebra7 
I have got my collegues in both brahmos and DRDL.Actually the IPRs of the engine lies with russians and not with brahmos- it is nothing but a rumour that brahmos has the IPR.We must acknowledge what is our IPR and what is not ours.For christ sake we are not pakistan- here almost everything is made public and transparent baring a few technologies! And secondly yes it is a mechanical construct and not software limitation @randomradio


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Now we can Officially fire Brahmos for MORE than 300 km 

We are MTCR members now


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## I M Sikander

Stephen Cohen said:


> Now we can Officially fire Brahmos for MORE than 300 km
> 
> We are MTCR members now



Hahah.
Kid How can you fire it beyond its rated range of 290km. 
Mtcr membership can't increase the design range of a missile.


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## randomradio

amardeep mishra said:


> @zebra7
> And secondly yes it is a mechanical construct and not software limitation @randomradio



It's not a mechanical construct. It is written in the guidance control software. The moment Brahmos reaches 290Km, the warhead is made to detonate. Doing this requires some electronics, but that's about it. There is no change to the engine itself.


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## ~Phoenix~

The CX-01 missile is similar to the BrahMos and it is rumored that the Chinese reserse-engineered ( not fully ) the BrahMos and modified it,which resulted in CX-01


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## Arsalan

zebra7 said:


> 290 KM is the declared range, to comply the MTCR regulation. Moreover, the range could depend on the flight profile and altitude, how much fuel is filled, and the software control. But the actual range of Brahmos-1 is more than 500 KM for sure. Brahmos-NG, which is in development too have the declared range of the 290 KM, but will be much smaller in size, so that they could be carried by other fighter planes other than MKI.


For sure!
OK! 

Because you say so. I will remember never to quote all those sources and military forums ever again. I promise, neither will i tell anyone about the, husshhh


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## M A MUGHAL

don't worry we're ready for this ...........because we love god..................KYU KE PAK ARMY OR PAK AWWAM 1 HAIN INSHAH ALLAH

HUM NE PATAKHE NAHI BANAE


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## zebra7

Arsalan said:


> For sure!
> OK!
> 
> Because you say so. I will remember never to quote all those sources and military forums ever again. I promise, neither will i tell anyone about the, husshhh



I never said anything, which makes you so much annoyed. BTW there have been some article about the testing of the Brahmos, where the DRDO guys have to press the button, to stop the missile to offshoot the range.

Baki Lage Raho and Hum Bhi Lagge Rahete hai.


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## Quester

Pakistan Have a Great Technology to fight with these types of Missiles.


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## Arsalan

zebra7 said:


> I never said anything, which makes you so much annoyed. BTW there have been some article about the testing of the Brahmos, where the DRDO guys have to press the button, to stop the missile to offshoot the range.
> 
> Baki Lage Raho and Hum Bhi Lagge Rahete hai.


You just added to the glass that was already full. You may see the last few pages to understand what i mean.
Plus i was not annoyed at all, really enjoyed the "logic" shared in previous few posts. 

Anyway!!
AS you said!! Keep at it dear.

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## Mugwop

Quester said:


> Pakistan Have a Great Technology to fight with these types of Missiles.


I don't think their brahmos missile is for us,I believe it's for China
Only Lazer technology can defeat these types of missiles,On full power they can destroy targets like missiles,drones and on low power they can damage sensors or disrupt them.
*We need to pursue this tech fast





*


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## amardeep mishra

randomradio said:


> It's not a mechanical construct. It is written in the guidance control software. The moment Brahmos reaches 290Km, the warhead is made to detonate.



@randomradio 
Thats not correct.There is no such thing as "written in GNC software".There a device called fuse that gets activated upon impact.There is no prozimity or laser fuse that starts the explosion in brahmos. As i said there is a mechanical construct in the engine and GNC has nothing to do with that.


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## barbarosa

Mugwop said:


> I don't think their brahmos missile is for us,I believe it's for China
> Only Lazer technology can defeat these types of missiles,On full power they can destroy targets like missiles,drones and on low power they can damage sensors or disrupt them.
> *We need to pursue this tech fast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


What are you saying? the weapons are made for enemy not for the particular name.
If China attack on India,Brahmoos would be for China .
If Pakistan attack, Brahmoos would be for Pakistan,or other.

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## monitor

Mugwop said:


> I don't think their brahmos missile is for us,I believe it's for China
> Only Lazer technology can defeat these types of missiles,On full power they can destroy targets like missiles,drones and on low power they can damage sensors or disrupt them.
> *We need to pursue this tech fast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Are you seriously means that your enemy will not use certain weapons even if they are in their inventory? Too much drugs

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## Tshering22

*



how can Pakistan navy defend itself from Brahmos cruse missile ?

Click to expand...

*
Umm by being genuinely friendly with us and re-starting relations on a meaningfully positive note? 

Forget old enmity and look towards a sustainable future which has a constructive place for both their kids and ours.


----------



## Mugwop

barbarosa said:


> What are you saying? the weapons are made for enemy not for the particular name.
> If China attack on India,Brahmoos would be for China .
> If Pakistan attack, Brahmoos would be for Pakistan,or other.


I know that,That's why I posted a way to counter it.
The point I was trying to make is indians are more threatened by China than they are by Pakistan.If you ask them they are most likely to use Brahmos on China then us even thou they harbor more hate for us. Brahmos is their trumpcard if you ask me.


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## monitor

*Sea Ceptor to Upgrade Royal Navy vessels defense against supersonic anti-ship missiles*
By Tamir Eshel -
Jan 31, 2012
3445
Share on Facebook





The new Sea Ceptor Mach 3 naval air defense missile will replace the Vertical Launch SeaWolf on Type 23 frigates and extend the vessel's defense against supersonic attack missiles. Photo: MBDA



Sea Ceptor will employ a novel 'Soft Vertical Launch' concept.
MBDA was awarded yesterday a £483 five-year MOD contract to develop Sea Ceptor – a new naval air defense system for the British Royal Navy Type 23 frigates. As part of the ‘Future Local Area Air Defence System’ (FLAADS), Sea Ceptor will replace the current Vertical Launch SeaWolf as it is scheduled phase out of service by 2016. Sea Ceptor will also become the principal air defense weapon on the Type 26 Global Combat Ship.


The heart of FLAADS-M is the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM), capable of reaching speeds of up to Mach 3. It will have the ability to deal with multiple targets simultaneously, including supersonic anti-ship missiles, protecting an area of around 500 square miles (1,300 square km) over land or sea.

The new system relies on many technologies developed for the ‘Sea Viper’ missile system equipping the new Type 45T destroyers. MBDA has also tested the several elements of the system, including the new ‘soft vertical launch’ concept, missile datalink and RF seeker.




Elements of the CAMM missile, the principal interceptor of the Sea Ceptor weapon system have already went through flight testing through 2011. Concept image: MBDA
According to to MBDA, CAMM benefits from significant re-use of technology from other MBDA products, providing a missile with high maturity for this stage of development. For example, more than 75% of the Sea Viper C2 software will be reused for Sea Ceptor. Furthermore, according to the MOD announcement, the flexibility of the design means that it could in future be adapted for use by the Army and RAF.

SEA CEPTOR is the second major package of work launched under the Portfolio Management Agreement (PMA) signed between MBDA and the UK MoD in March 2010. Other ongoing programs include the short-range maritime attack weapon (FASGW-L) and standoff loitering attack weapons for the Royal Air Force and Army. Under this Agreement, MBDA has responsibility to lead the transformation of the UK’s Complex Weapons (CW) capability through the management of a portfolio of projects potentially worth up to £4 billion over 10 years.




The new Sea Ceptor Mach 3 naval air defense missile will replace the Vertical Launch SeaWolf on Type 23 frigates and extend the vessel's defense against supersonic attack missiles. Photo: MBDA

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## randomradio

amardeep mishra said:


> @randomradio
> Thats not correct.There is no such thing as "written in GNC software".



Bro, that's the only way you can stop a missile from crossing its limit.

And the warhead explodes automatically upon reaching 290Km. You can only write this in the guidance, it is impossible anywhere else. The same trigger can also be used to detonate the warhead in case it veers off course.

Are you saying there is a mechanical construct in the engine itself? That's impossible for two reasons. One, it increases the cost and complexity of the engine which is entirely unnecessary. Two, the engine has no clue how far it has traveled, it cannot trigger the warhead either. The engine doesn't shut itself down upon reaching the distance. Even if it was done this way, the guidance decides the range.

Pillai himself said the Brahmos's range can have its limiter removed unilaterally by the forces "after deployment" because nobody is going to come check it, which makes it obvious the restriction is software controlled. After Pillai's statement, the Russians asked us specifically not to increase the Brahmos's range. All for public discourse.


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## amardeep mishra

randomradio said:


> Bro, that's the only way you can stop a missile from crossing its limit.
> 
> And the warhead explodes automatically upon reaching 290Km. You can only write this in the guidance, it is impossible anywhere else. The same trigger can also be used to detonate the warhead in case it veers off course.
> 
> Are you saying there is a mechanical construct in the engine itself? That's impossible for two reasons. One, it increases the cost and complexity of the engine which is entirely unnecessary. Two, the engine has no clue how far it has traveled, it cannot trigger the warhead either. The engine doesn't shut itself down upon reaching the distance. Even if it was done this way, the guidance decides the range.
> 
> Pillai himself said the Brahmos's range can have its limiter removed unilaterally by the forces "after deployment" because nobody is going to come check it, which makes it obvious the restriction is software controlled. After Pillai's statement, the Russians asked us specifically not to increase the Brahmos's range. All for public discourse.



Dude, I work with these things and secondly I've got my friends in brahmos.I'm a control engineer myself.

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## GuardianRED

amardeep mishra said:


> Dude, I work with these things and secondly I've got my friends in brahmos.I'm a control engineer myself.


I would make a guess that it will be both ie software and hardware defined 

Software being targeting /guidance/ trajectory etc (depends on the target)
Hardware being proximity fuse safety locks etc


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## randomradio

amardeep mishra said:


> Dude, I work with these things and secondly I've got my friends in brahmos.I'm a control engineer myself.



I don't care about that. The fact is the warhead has to explode. You can't have it simply falling off after it reaches 290Km. The same way you can't have the missile continue flying if it veers off course. That's not how these things work.

The absolute best they can do is restrict filling all the fuel tanks, that's about it. But the warhead will explode, that's guaranteed. We can agree to disagree.

Anyway this is what Pillai has said.
https://defence.pk/threads/brahmos-...mtcr-range-can-be-extended-beyond-300.234105/


> So the whole design was adopted for 300 kilometres, but it does not stop you to do a flight of your own, *when it is deployed* to go for more range.


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## amardeep mishra

randomradio said:


> I don't care about that. The fact is the warhead has to explode. You can't have it simply falling off after it reaches 290Km. The same way you can't have the missile continue flying if it veers off course. That's not how these things work.



@randomradio
Care to tell me your experience with these things?I mean what exactly is your experience with guidance and control?The matter of fact is,there exists a cut off mechanism in liquid ramjet engine of brahmos that gets triggered when it reaches 300kms.Now you would ask how would engine know that it has covered 300kms downrange?Well the answer is pretty simple- it doesnt,the downrange information can be extracted from the GPS.y p
I would like to highlight that the way points in brahmos triggers the vertical profile
Secondly,why on earth will the missile continue flying off course?Thats precisely the job of GNC(guidance navigation and control) to keep it on track. Kindly read about "proportional control",where the lateral acceleration of the missile is slaved to the rate of change of line of sight angle.
PS- I am still waiting to know your qualifications and your experience with GNC!


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

An antiship LACM conversion with a longer range is the best way to keep the enemy bogged down in the distance. 

With Sub launched of PK Babur in AshCM role... Pak will essentially neutralise any of enemy advantage. 

Combined with air launched CX from JF...your country's waters are pretty secured.

Enemy's nummerical advantages or their CMs will become just numbers on paper without translating into effective strength or threat you PK.

One suspects that work on these front to be in full swing. Pak defence forces are quite desciplined on keeping secrecy. A wise practice.

PNS is working on multi level strategy, hence, making this brahmos essentially paper tiger.


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## Bilal Khan 777

To stop Brahmos, you need a 360 deg IRST scanner and SHORAD such as LMM / Star Streak.

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## Arsalan

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> To stop Brahmos, you need a 360 deg IRST scanner and SHORAD such as LMM / Star Streak.


IRST? 
You are rating that above the more conventional radars, AESA, for this kind of threat?

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## Alphacharlie

Every thing can be Shot. The issue is not about shooting BRAHMOS boys!!

Issue is the momentum it generated after being shot at 2.3-3 Mach in Dive....
Imagine the Kinetic Energy developed----

Splinters from this "Tin Can" ---Will also cause HAVOC -----
Think what should you do to save from Splinters---


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## Bilal Khan 777

Arsalan said:


> IRST?
> You are rating that above the more conventional radars, AESA, for this kind of threat?


AESA or PESA, they would be useless at this speed, for search radar the terminal speed is too fast track radar cannot track at this speed with the exception of a few Russian CW systems.

Remember that these systems were designed specifically to defeat western radar terminal defense and CLOS SHORAD.

Radar will not track it at terminal speed, you need infra red search and track as it crosses the LoS horizon, and engage with supersonic kinetic darts solution, CLOS preferred. The only thing that matches is StarStreak, and LMM on headon eng.



Alphacharlie said:


> Every thing can be Shot. The issue is not about shooting BRAHMOS boys!!
> 
> Issue is the momentum it generated after being shot at 2.3-3 Mach in Dive....
> Imagine the Kinetic Energy developed----
> 
> Splinters from this "Tin Can" ---Will also cause HAVOC -----
> Think what should you do to save from Splinters---



At this speed its a straight bee line system, very easy to track and predict, and one touch would defilgrate the system, and it can be safely interdicted at 8-10 km. It is a conventional system.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Radar will not track it at terminal speed, you need infra red search and track as it crosses the LoS horizon, and engage with supersonic kinetic darts solution, CLOS preferred. The only thing that matches is StarStreak, and LMM on headon eng.
> 
> 
> 
> At this speed its a straight bee line system, very easy to track and predict, and one touch would defilgrate the system, and it can be safely interdicted at 8-10 km. It is a conventional system.


Also the reason we are not that impressed with the CM-400AKG but sadly the idea has its proponents.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Oscar said:


> Also the reason we are not that impressed with the CM-400AKG but sadly the idea has its proponents.



These are fear weapons, from saturation doctrines, where we were trained on precision doctrines.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> These are fear weapons, from saturation doctrines, where we were trained on precision doctrines.



well, the idea of saturation doctrines also applies to subsonic weaponry as it is more difficult for a ship to engage 10 subsonic targets than 3 supersonic ones. Not to mention that the targeting platform is much safer in the subsonic scenario as longer range seekers can tolerate those distances when compared to the IR ones and the need for CLOS in most subsonic missiles. Lest one try to explain to fanboys on both sides that firing a missile at a ship isnt as simple as that for an aircraft and definitely more difficult when the scenario is ship to ship targeting. 

Even with advanced computers , creating a targeting solution is not easy.

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## Sine Nomine

Oscar said:


> Lest one try to explain to fanboys on both sides that firing a missile at a ship isnt as simple as that for an aircraft and definitely more difficult when the scenario is ship to ship targeting.


I am looking forward for your lines on target acquisition and engaging them in ocean,kindly tag me.



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> These are fear weapons, from saturation doctrines, where we were trained on precision doctrines.


But sir saturation doctrine is shooting on own foot in an open ocean,what if tarrget survives,saturation fire is best suited for land warfare using it in air and sea is suicidal.


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## Bilal Khan 777

قناص said:


> I am looking forward for your lines on target acquisition and engaging them in ocean,kindly tag me.
> 
> 
> But sir saturation doctrine is shooting on own foot in an open ocean,what if tarrget survives,saturation fire is best suited for land warfare using it in air and sea is suicidal.



Brahmos would most likely be employed by Su for land attack on pakistani establishment from sea. The surface targets would be a waste of the Brahmos CM.


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## .

In my opinion PN should simply Increase its numbers of submarines.
Anti-Missile tech is being readily advanced and some Chinese solutions are already present So no big deal.


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## fitpOsitive

BondedByBlood said:


> In my opinion PN should simply Increase its numbers of submarines.
> Anti-Missile tech is being readily advanced and some Chinese solutions are already present So no big deal.


Rather increasing ships and anti-submarine capability will be more substantial. Long-range-Naval-aerial capability must also be addressed on urgent basis.

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Brahmos would most likely be employed by Su for land attack on pakistani establishment from sea. The surface targets would be a waste of the Brahmos CM.


That's same I was thinking,they are likely to target depots,command nodes,power infrastructure,government manufacturing facilities,bridges,rail roads,air bases,sea port and ship yard,now sir what measures we can take to foil there bid.

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## Bilal Khan 777

قناص said:


> I am looking forward for your lines on target acquisition and engaging them in ocean,kindly tag me.
> 
> 
> But sir saturation doctrine is shooting on own foot in an open ocean,what if tarrget survives,saturation fire is best suited for land warfare using it in air and sea is suicidal.



Saturation ensures that target doesnt survive, the whole soviet doctrine and their allied forces count on that.

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## Alphacharlie

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> AESA or PESA, they would be useless at this speed, for search radar the terminal speed is too fast track radar cannot track at this speed with the exception of a few Russian CW systems.
> 
> Remember that these systems were designed specifically to defeat western radar terminal defense and CLOS SHORAD.
> 
> Radar will not track it at terminal speed, you need infra red search and track as it crosses the LoS horizon, and engage with supersonic kinetic darts solution, CLOS preferred. The only thing that matches is StarStreak, and LMM on headon eng.
> 
> 
> 
> At this speed its a straight bee line system, very easy to track and predict, and one touch would defilgrate the system, and it can be safely interdicted at 8-10 km. It is a conventional system.



What a Crap !! wasted my 30 seconds


----------



## dani958

buy barak 8

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## hell9214

[QOTE="dani958, post: 8539139, member: 177838"]buy barak 8[/QUOTE]

Bt will going to sell that to Pakistan coz both brahmos nd Barak r of India..lol..


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## dani958

ofcaurse not


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## amardeep mishra

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> AESA or PESA, they would be useless at this speed, for search radar the terminal speed is too fast track radar cannot track at this speed with the exception of a few Russian CW systems.
> 
> Remember that these systems were designed specifically to defeat western radar terminal defense and CLOS SHORAD.
> 
> Radar will not track it at terminal speed, you need infra red search and track as it crosses the LoS horizon, and engage with supersonic kinetic darts solution, CLOS preferred. The only thing that matches is StarStreak, and LMM on headon eng.



@Bilal Khan 777
Hi dear Bilal,Well actually thats not entirely correct,a radar with sufficiently high PRF(pulse repetition frequency) can track a fast moving target.And by fast moving I am refering to extremely fast missiles and even RVs. The track beam should have as less wavelength as possible for best possible resolution cell- resolution cell is basically the distance between two objects that a radar needs to effectively distinguish them. If two objects are flying in the same cell,then it'll take them as one object. There is a limitation to how high a frequency you can employ in your search and track radar- a higher frequency suffers from much higher attenuation vis-a-vis longer waves. Normally search radars employ L-band or even larger waves like UHV and even VHF etc. However tracking radars now a days use X-band like US sea based x-band radar that is world's largest x-band radar.Now the reason why it has an awesome range of 2500miles inspite of the fact that it works on x-band is because of itz ridiculously large aperature and power- these two factors are coupled together in something known as PAP(power aperture product).
Here is a link,kindly go through it.It serves as mid-course guidance to american BMDS.

https://www.mda.mil/global/documents/pdf/sbx_booklet.pdf

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## CHI RULES

The Brahmos range is so far less than 300km and at best shall be up to 300KM in near future, PN should acquire long range ASHMs to counter IN ships at 400KM. Further PN should at least for time being equip it's sole OHP with LRSAM and F22Ps with Medium range SAMS.

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## hell9214

CHI post: 8571234 said:


> The Brahmos range is so far less than 300km and at best shall be up to 300KM in near future, PN should acquire long range ASHMs to counter IN ships at 400KM. Further PN should at least for time being equip it's sole OHP with LRSAM and F22Ps with Medium range SAMS.



Nd how cn Pakistan acquire 400 km missiles without being in MTCR ....



ll9214 said:


> Nd how cn Pakistan acquire 400 km missiles without being in MTCR ....[/QUOTE
> 
> Nd India have barak missiles to counter Pakistani missiles...


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## Bilal Khan 777

amardeep mishra said:


> @Bilal Khan 777
> Hi dear Bilal,Well actually thats not entirely correct,a radar with sufficiently high PRF(pulse repetition frequency) can track a fast moving target.And by fast moving I am refering to extremely fast missiles and even RVs. The track beam should have as less wavelength as possible for best possible resolution cell- resolution cell is basically the distance between two objects that a radar needs to effectively distinguish them. If two objects are flying in the same cell,then it'll take them as one object. There is a limitation to how high a frequency you can employ in your search and track radar- a higher frequency suffers from much higher attenuation vis-a-vis longer waves. Normally search radars employ L-band or even larger waves like UHV and even VHF etc. However tracking radars now a days use X-band like US sea based x-band radar that is world's largest x-band radar.Now the reason why it has an awesome range of 2500miles inspite of the fact that it works on x-band is because of itz ridiculously large aperature and power- these two factors are coupled together in something known as PAP(power aperture product).
> Here is a link,kindly go through it.It serves as mid-course guidance to american BMDS.
> 
> https://www.mda.mil/global/documents/pdf/sbx_booklet.pdf



Thanks for the argument. Is there one on the market? is it available to Pakistan? I don't bring up situations that are not practical.


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## amardeep mishra

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Thanks for the argument. Is there one on the market? is it available to Pakistan? I don't bring up situations that are not practical.



@Bilal Khan 777
Fair enough,i was merely pointing out that tracking of a high velocity missile or an RV and guidance of interceptor is accomplished using a radar these days. Although most of the exo-atmospheric interceptors have either an IIR seeker or dual seekers. The reason why IIR seekers are prefered over lets say an active radar seeker is because an active radar seeker wont be able to distinguish between an actual RV and dummy if the "beta-coefficient" or ballistic coefficient of both RV and dummy is same.Thats not the case with an IIR.
As for pakistan though,I am not sure what kind of tracking radar they have.If i am not mistaken(kindly correct me if I am wrong!),the most advanced ground based surveillance radar in pakistani inventory is american TPS-77 that based on the arrangement of antennae clearly indicates that it can only electronically steer the beam in elevation and not in azimuth. Besides the number of antennae(active transmitting modules which are 34 in number) also put restriction on the number of independent beams it can furnish for various tasks. And although it can search vast volumes using it L-band beam,it cant effectively track a fast moving RV or lets say a 3-mach supersonic missile.

http://www.lockheedmartin.co.in/con...-based-air-surveillance/TPS-77_SPEC_sheet.pdf


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## Pakistan First

It's really amusing to see Indian kids and mall ninjas coming here and posting about stuff that they know f*** about.


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## Bilal Khan 777

amardeep mishra said:


> @Bilal Khan 777
> Fair enough,i was merely pointing out that tracking of a high velocity missile or an RV and guidance of interceptor is accomplished using a radar these days. Although most of the exo-atmospheric interceptors have either an IIR seeker or dual seekers. The reason why IIR seekers are prefered over lets say an active radar seeker is because an active radar seeker wont be able to distinguish between an actual RV and dummy if the "beta-coefficient" or ballistic coefficient of both RV and dummy is same.Thats not the case with an IIR.
> As for pakistan though,I am not sure what kind of tracking radar they have.If i am not mistaken(kindly correct me if I am wrong!),the most advanced ground based surveillance radar in pakistani inventory is american TPS-77 that based on the arrangement of antennae clearly indicates that it can only electronically steer the beam in elevation and not in azimuth. Besides the number of antennae(active transmitting modules which are 34 in number) also put restriction on the number of independent beams it can furnish for various tasks. And although it can search vast volumes using it L-band beam,it cant effectively track a fast moving RV or lets say a 3-mach supersonic missile.
> 
> http://www.lockheedmartin.co.in/con...-based-air-surveillance/TPS-77_SPEC_sheet.pdf



You ask a question, and then answer it yourself proving my point.

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## fatman17

Land based CWIS systems


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## CorporateAffairs

monitor said:


> _It is known that India already develop Brahmos supersonic cruse missile for its Navy and also develop a version for its air-force .How can Pakistan Navy defend with its current arsenal and what will be the future requirement to defend itself from both air launch and ship launch Brahmos cruse Missile .here is a relevant thread regrading how USN can defend Brahmos _
> How to defend Brahmos?- American analysis.



The Brahmos is not for Pakistan, they need not worry.


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## Tipu7

CorporateAffairs said:


> The Brahmos is not for Pakistan, they need not worry.


Yup, its for Martians.



fatman17 said:


> Land based CWIS systems


Nope, we are protecting ships here. Not installation on Land.


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## Signalian

fatman17 said:


> Land based CWIS systems


Pakistan has naval CIWS system, acquired in late 1980's.


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## Bilal Khan 777

CorporateAffairs said:


> The Brahmos is not for Pakistan, they need not worry.



Just as the complete built up after the China war was not for Pakistan.



Sarge said:


> Pakistan has naval CIWS system, acquired in late 1980's.
> 
> View attachment 327430



The CIWS radar will not track the weapon. Unless you have a IRST, then cueing and guiding the gun, it will not be fruitful. Remember that you have 8-19 seconds only after the weapon crosses the LoS horizon.

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