# How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI



## Free Soul

Know Thy Enemy&#8211; Dissecting SU-30 MKI
*Introduction:*

SU 30 MKI belongs to a world renowned SU 27 family of Russian flankers that are seen as a formidable NATO opponent. SU 30 MKI is presented as the most potent air superiority fighter in the heavy weight class that comes with an impressive mix of avionics and armament and benefits from both the Western & Russian input. Keeping that in view this article is based on how an opponent will try to look for any weaknesses or openings to counter this behemoth should a situation arise.

SU 30 falls in the class of heavy combat aircrafts due to its size and twin engines and payload capacity. We will mostly discuss the MKI version to be precise which is claimed to be the most potent variant of SU 27 family. But some general pictures and features will be used that are common in all variants of SU 30. 

In most likely scenario that adversary will be PAF which will field its own front role fighters. Just like a boxer a fighter pilot always enters a battle with a view to win and does his homework to know the strengths and weakness and to avoid the former and exploit the later to achieve the kill.

(the fig gives you a visual idea about the scale of SU 30 vs a medium size plane like F16) 








*IRS &#8211; Infrared Signature*


The main sources of IR SL in aircraft are: power plant, nozzle, exhaust plume, airframe, Hot engine parts of the tail pipe and the air intakes. Among these, the Power plant is the major source of IR emission because of the large amount of heat produced by the engine. Plume radiation is visible from all aspects, because of its dimensions and orientation. Bigger the aircraft, bigger would the area of air friction and drag contributing more towards IRS so &#8220;bigger is better&#8221; rule doesn&#8217;t apply here.


* Exposed Twin Engines &#8211; bigger IR Signature * 






The central beam section between the engine nacelles consists of the equipment compartment, fuel tank and the brake parachute container. The fuselage head is of semi-monocoque construction and includes the cockpit, radar compartments and the avionics bay. *PLEASE NOTE THAT TWIN ENGINES ARE NOT ENCASED IN THE FUSELAGE *.

The aircraft rear fuselage has a large surface area at relatively low temperature, which is primarily heated by the embedded powerplant and external aerodynamic heating by the freestream. _*An Engine encased in the fuselage reduces the IR Signature *_.
The engine casing (engine nacelles) and nozzle act as grey bodies and emit radiation in all IR bands &#8211; *In case of SU30MKI it is even exacerbated by the overly exposed twin engines* , thereby making IR detection easier. Afterburner flames further enhance IR emissions from the powerplant. So its size and the construction makes it an IR beacon.







*RCS &#8211; Radar Cross-section &#8211; long distance detection made easy*

With a larger RCS due to its size means it is seen from a farther distance, compared to a light or medium aircraft. An opponent would be able to achieve BVR lock before SU30-MKI would.

The Large dimensions contribute to IRS so they also fall in the category of the Achilles heel for MKI. If it survives the BVR missile fired at it, then travelling at mach 1 and above would mean that it would be approaching the merge within a minute or more. As it continues its travel towards that point and enters the medium and short range the IRS issue starts hanging over it like a large spectre. 

*PAF inventory: *
F-16 Block 50/52 [BVR] [APG-68 radar] - F-16 A MLU &#8211; with upgraded APG-66 radar &#8211;[_ advantage use of AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM- BVR missiles_] 

PAF F-16s are armed with &#8211; *AIM-9 Sidewinder*
Off-bore sight aiming capability, Proximity/optic fuse 

At a Short/Medium range AIM-9 Sidewinder would have no difficulty downing a big mass of SU 30 MKI. Overly exposed Twin Engines of MKI would be radiating IRS off the charts, and the operational range of AIM-9 being - 1 to 35 km makes mince meat of the MKI.

Note: AIM-9M Proximity/optical fuse doesn&#8217;t even require waiting for the sight of the engines, being all aspect it can take down a MKI from side-on/frontal/any aspect. 

Also the exposed twin engines would be emitting so much IRS that every inch of the aircraft would be crying out that it has got bigger IR Signature &#8216;Hit Me&#8217;!

*Merge and Turning Battle *
While on paper the diagonal thrust of the SU-30MKI pushes the face across and rotates the nose. In practice it is an altogether different thing, post merge when the turning battle ensues things may turn ugly. To minimize the turning circle the compulsion of using thrust Vectoring can prove fatal. 

While climbing in scissors thrust vectoring puts the aircraft in post stall manoeuvre, the rear end drops and instead of going up the aircraft starts loosing elevation. Reason being Vector Thrust causes the centre of gravity to shift from mid to nose of the SU 30 MKI causing the tail end to fall, now applying angular Vector thrust the nose would turn around -but this would cause massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking. That&#8217;s what an F-16 pilot will be waiting for and he will barrel roll, dive and gun down the SU 30 that is losing altitude.

*Thrust Vectoring Blessing or Curse *


Now if you have got big mass and the sheer size is causing drag then Thrust Vectoring is rendered useless against an agile and good sustained Turner like an F-16. TVC has its advantages but it seems to be a double edged sword and can backfire even against a heavier aircraft with rate of turn not so great e.g. against experienced F-15 pilots *WHEN USAF F-15s WERE CARRYING 4 MISSILES AND WING TANKS and MKIs were CLEAN*- Red Flag 2008).

Note: in exercises such as Red Flag usually F-16s are used as red team [The aggressors] against the F-22 that has a sustained rate of turn of about 28 degrees at 20k feet. F-16 is one of the very few aircrafts that has managed to give F-22 Raptor a fight.

 *USAF Col. Terrence Fornof &#8211;Briefing: The Red Flag Experience *



> &#8216;&#8217;IAF comes to Mountain Home &#8211; RED FLAG, and the Su-30 unit that they bring was a regular operational unit &#8211; with an experience mix of about 50-50 (experienced vs. inexperienced)
> At Mountain Home and we let the operational guys fight... and then a couple of things happened. Amazingly, we dominated &#8211; *not with a clean aircraft i.e. Without any wing-tanks and other stores, but we dominated in wartime configuration i.e. 4 missiles onboard, wing-tanks, and they are sitting there in clean Su-30s except for pylons which did not have anything on it except a ACMI pod.* They were amazed, matter of fact they were floored to the point after the first 3 days, they didn't want 1 vs. 1 anymore
> 
> About SU30 MKI. Vectored thrust. When the airplane pulls, and it gets past a certain AoA (Angle of Attack), the vectored thrust kicks in and drives the airplane around. In the Su-30, instead of having it in the pitch, it has TVC in a V. The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft the direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper, but that is how far as it will go. It&#8217;s a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. It's a biiig airplane. A huge airplane. So what happens is when it moves its nose around, its sinking.
> 
> SU 30 its a big Big airplane. Big RCS. He is Jamming to get to the merge, so you have to fight close... he has 22 degrees per second sustained turn rate. We've been fighting the Raptor, so we've been going oh dude, this is easy. So as we're fighting him, all of a sudden you'd see the @ss end kick down, going post stall - but now he starts falling from the sky. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.&#8217;&#8217;



*Deadly FOD *
SU 30 MKI engines are very susceptible to FOD (Foreign Object Damage). So much so that the SOP is 1 minute spacing between take offs. (more on that some other time)

*End Notes:*

In the end it is concluded that PAF will take on the SU 30 in its territory of expertise which is WVR. This is where the most of the present day air to air combat has happened and this is where most of the air to air kills have been achieved. I rest my case quoting Colonel John Richard Boyd &#8211; Military Strategist, Pilot, Pentagon consultant of the late 20th century. 



> People who say the era of the Dogfight is over are wrong. Real combat proves totally otherwise. Radar doesn&#8217;t dominate and radar missiles traditionally and up till now [in combat scenario] are most unreliable. With the advancement of radars the counter measures and manoeuvrability has advanced at the same pace. So in REAL air to air combat the radar cannot identify a friend from foe.
> 
> You have to be close enough to positively identify the target. The dream of all technological air forces has been: if we look at a scope from the radar and we see a blip.. we press a button and a few seconds later the blip disappears... its perfect isn&#8217;t it?... well it doesn&#8217;t work that way in reality.. it didn&#8217;t work in the past and it doesn&#8217;t work today...
> 
> Because the blip doesn&#8217;t have a colour... its not RED or BLUE.... its just a BLIP... and in a real air war where we have a lot of aircrafts up, the BLIP is likely to be a friend than an enemy. so you push a button and you may erase a friend.. It has happened in real combat and in training exercises. There has been no reliable way to secure that the enemy cannot bamboozle, that separates red from blue.
> 
> You don&#8217;t stay at a distance and avoid merge, it DOEST NOT HAPPEN.. YOU WILL MERGE..
> SO in that case you have to get close enough to see.... CLOSE ENOUGH TO SEE?... [what is the distance on that?] its like a quarter mile.. May be in good weather half a mile... but pretty close. You know now you have a Dogfight ...you turn ..and he turns..THIS IS COMBAT..you are in either heat seekers or gun firing range...

Reactions: Like Like:
32


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Oh damn that don't look good for the double decker bus

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## RazPaK

> People who say the era of the Dogfight is over are wrong. Real combat proves totally otherwise. Radar doesn&#8217;t dominate and radar missiles traditionally and up till now [in combat scenario] are most unreliable. With the advancement of radars the counter measures and manoeuvrability has advanced at the same pace. So in REAL air to air combat the radar cannot identify a friend from foe.
> 
> You have to be close enough to positively identify the target. The dream of all technological air forces has been: if we look at a scope from the radar and we see a blip.. we press a button and a few seconds later the blip disappears... its perfect isn&#8217;t it?... well it doesn&#8217;t work that way in reality.. it didn&#8217;t work in the past and it doesn&#8217;t work today...
> 
> Because the blip doesn&#8217;t have a colour... its not RED or BLUE.... its just a BLIP... and in a real air war where we have a lot of aircrafts up, the BLIP is likely to be a friend than an enemy. so you push a button and you may erase a friend.. It has happened in real combat and in training exercises. There has been no reliable way to secure that the enemy cannot bamboozle, that separates red from blue.
> 
> You don&#8217;t stay at a distance and avoid merge, it DOEST NOT HAPPEN.. YOU WILL MERGE..
> SO in that case you have to get close enough to see.... CLOSE ENOUGH TO SEE?... [what is the distance on that?] its like a quarter mile.. May be in good weather half a mile... but pretty close. You know now you have a Dogfight ...you turn ..and he turns..THIS IS COMBAT..you are in either heat seekers or gun firing range...



Excellent. In those terms Pakistan is on top.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## zip

What about j10 which your air force want to induct in future !! Present is brighter than future ? What you say ?

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## IndoUS

I am not so sure about red flag, because the MKI were not allowed to use the radar. And as for any short falls, the aircraft are getting some upgrades to Super Su-30 MKI so I will wait till then.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ptldM3

Free Soul said:


> * Exposed Twin Engines &#8211; bigger IR Signature *





The is just a statement based on lack of knowledge. The engines are not exposed, the unpainted area of the fuselage is just that, the fusalage. Some Flankers do have that part of the fusalage painted. Search a video search, &#8216;Sukhoi factory&#8217; and see what I mean.



Free Soul said:


> The central beam section between the engine nacelles consists of the equipment compartment, fuel tank and the brake parachute container. The fuselage head is of semi-monocoque construction and includes the cockpit, radar compartments and the avionics bay. *PLEASE NOTE THAT TWIN ENGINES ARE NOT ENCASED IN THE FUSELAGE *.




Yes they are, here let me post a video showing a Flanker without any engines. Forward to 2:06:


Su 30 factory - YouTube


As for engines being hot, you do know that you can touch most jet nozzles even while they are in afterburner right?














Free Soul said:


> *RCS &#8211; Radar Cross-section &#8211; long distance detection made easy*






In tern, Flankers large radar makes detection easi*er*.





Free Soul said:


> An opponent would be able to achieve BVR lock before SU30-MKI would.





Given that the other aircraft is able to defeat the MKI&#8217;s ECM&#8217;s and given the other aircraft has the resolution to achieve a radar lock. It&#8217;s not as simple as you make it out to be.







Free Soul said:


> The Large dimensions contribute to IRS so they also fall in the category of the Achilles heel for MKI.





A question to ponder,: *what is the F-15?* It&#8217;s a large twin engine aircraft, now what is its combat record against smaller single engine aircraft?









Free Soul said:


> *Merge and Turning Battle *
> While on paper the diagonal thrust of the SU-30MKI pushes the face across and rotates the nose. In practice it is an altogether different thing, post merge when the turning battle ensues things may turn ugly. To minimize the turning circle the compulsion of using thrust Vectoring can prove fatal.
> 
> While climbing in scissors thrust vectoring puts the aircraft in post stall manoeuvre, the rear end drops and instead of going up the aircraft starts loosing elevation. Reason being Vector Thrust causes the centre of gravity to shift from mid to nose of the SU 30 MKI causing the tail end to fall, now applying angular Vector thrust the nose would turn around -but this would cause massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking. That&#8217;s what an F-16 pilot will be waiting for and he will barrel roll, dive and gun down the SU 30 that is losing altitude.







Please just stop, for one TVC can be controlled, the pilot can choose to perform, wide turns, tight, terns, or a post stall to cause an overshoot.

The point of the scissors, especially vertical scissors is to cause the other guy to overshoot. The aircraft with TVC can operate in speeds that would cause a conventional aircraft to stall.





Free Soul said:


> *Thrust Vectoring Blessing or Curse *
> 
> 
> Now if you have got big mass and the sheer size is causing drag then Thrust Vectoring is rendered useless against an agile and good sustained Turner like an F-16. TVC has its advantages but it seems to be a double edged sword and can backfire even against a heavier aircraft with rate of turn not so great e.g. against experienced F-15 pilots *WHEN USAF F-15s WERE CARRYING 4 MISSILES AND WING TANKS and MKIs were CLEAN*- Red Flag 2008).




A little, education lesson. *Any* Flanker can do the cobra with a full weapons load.

Reactions: Like Like:
47


----------



## airuah

lol...Su 30 MKI functions as a mini awac and sends signals to other Su30 MKI in the area......

so how this possible if friend or foe identification is not there?

anyway....whatever makes you guys happy....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pak47

Paf, already has ways to counter the MKI.


----------



## VelocuR

Shinigami said:


> interesting article
> 
> The FC-1 -or- A Tale Of An Inferior Fighter Plane



That's blog article from 2007, many errors in it. You know, JF-17's goal is not the designed against MKIs. 

JF-17 transformed quickly to become more mature platforms.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

RaptorRX707 said:


> That's blog article from 2007, many errors in it. You know, JF-17's goal is not the designed against MKIs.
> 
> JF-17 transformed quickly to become more mature platforms.



JF-17 is not designed to take on MKI's. Agreed. 

However, in a conflict, JF-17 will ultimately have to take on the MKI's. 

Hence, a comparison is in order.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## TalkToMe:D

I think the best counter measure against Su-30 mki for PAF are Fighter jets accompanied by AWACs systems, with a larger radar on you side Su-30 mki will lose its size advantage or its radar power advantage.



Free Soul said:


> *Deadly FOD *
> SU 30 MKI engines are very susceptible to FOD (Foreign Object Damage). So much so that the SOP is 1 minute spacing between take offs. (more on that some other time)



Those reports are bullshy!ts if su-30 mki are subjected to FOD damage all fighter jets are subjected to such damage.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Avisheik

The MKI is a really advanced jet. Even though, in case of war, a few MKI may be shot down, its not possible for pakistan to bring down 100+ MKIs with just f16s, even if pakistanis find weakness with the MKI.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## acetophenol

Avisheik said:


> The MKI is a really advanced jet. Even though, in case of war, a few MKI may be shot down, its not possible for pakistan to bring down 100+ MKIs with just f16s, even if pakistanis find weakness with the MKI.



Also,either the MKI's are gonna come in packs,with their "mini-awac" capability linking them together.
they may be followed by the mig-29upgs!
their endurance will be doubled or tripled with refueling tankers escorted by mig-21 bisons/mirage 2000/tejas/rafales

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Tumba

acetophenol said:


> Also,either the MKI's are gonna come in packs,with their "mini-awac" capability linking them together.
> they may be followed by the mig-29upgs!


 
and the story does'nt end here ,,, and 29s may also be followed by upg Mirage-2k .. and if we wait for 5-10 years more ... new babes Rafale.. FGFA .. Tesjas Mk2.. will also be coming thr ...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## acetophenol

right now,in the event of a war,India is most likely able to take the fighting into pakistan

---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

the best thing for pakistan is-
1.increase the number of their aircrafts and try to build up numerical superiority.
*2.build up surface to air missile capability*

---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------




Tumba said:


> and the story does'nt end here ,,, and 29s may also be followed by upg Mirage-2k .. and if we wait for 5-10 years more ... new babes Rafale.. FGFA .. Tesjas Mk2.. will also be coming thr ...



i've edited my post!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

Avisheik said:


> The MKI is a really advanced jet. Even though, in case of war, a few MKI may be shot down, its not possible for pakistan to bring down 100+ MKIs with just f16s, even if pakistanis find weakness with the MKI.




To Counter Su30 Mki I Think....PAF 'll Work Under AWACS Umbrella Within Their Respective Border With Jets Capable Of Data Link + BVR Payloads. Once They Know Whats Coming, they can get into favorable position and try their luck in BVR Battle. But Not To Forget Su30Mki's Are Armed With a Powerful NIIP N011M Bars, Good AAM's And Effective Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Shinigami

acetophenol said:


> [/COLOR]the best thing for pakistan is-
> 1.increase the number of their aircrafts and try to build up numerical superiority.
> *2.build up surface to air missile capability*




Exactly.

The best way to counter IAF is by air defence ie SAMs

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tracy

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> To Counter Su30 Mki I Think....PAF 'll Work Under AWACS Umbrella Within Their Respective Border With Jets Capable Of Data Link + BVR Payloads. Once They Know Whats Coming, they can get into favorable position and try their luck in BVR Battle. But Not To Forget Su30Mki's Are Armed With a Powerful NIIP N011M Bars, Good AAM's And Effective Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer.



Sir, what if we take super sukhoi in context ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## joekrish

Not a big aeroplane guy but I do have a few doubts -
1. By this logic does it mean that the F-16's can take down aF-15's with far more ease.
2. Do missiles like the K-100 and Meteor have no role to play?
3. Would the MKI's not have the Phalcon AWACS advantage also?
4. Would a war mean stand off,s between only two brands or models of planes or would nt most of them be in formations and if so would nt disadvatge of one fighter be covered by another, be it F-16 or MKI.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## sputnik

The problem with such kind of analysis is they take into account, 1 Vs 1 and neglect other factors. therefore, arriving on any conclusion with such analysis is useless. as said, military plans gone in kapot once first bullet fired.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tracy

joekrish said:


> Not a big aeroplane guy but I do have a few doubts -
> 1. By this logic does it mean that the F-16's can take down aF-15's with far more ease.
> 2. Do missiles like the K-100 and Meteor have no role to play?
> 3. Would the MKI's not have the Phalcon AWACS advantage also?
> 4. Would a war mean stand off,s between only two brands or models of planes or would nt most of them be in formations and if so would nt disadvatge of one fighter be covered by another, be it F-16 or MKI.




In Case Of War PAF 'll act As a defensive force (mostly defensive offensive or defensive 2) missions....so i don't think IAF AWACS will help much because su30mki 'll strike deep into enemy airspace. but in other hand PAF can use AWACS advantage in their airspace and prepare a counter move. 

PS: I am not taking other IAF fighters into account....(read thread topic)

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Edevelop

Air to Air Tactics:

- 2 JF-17 blk I vs 1 Su-30MkI
or
- 2 F-16 blk 30 vs 1 SU-30MKI
or
- 1 F-16 Blk 52 vs 1 Su-30 MKI
or
- 1 J-10B vs 1 SU-30MKI

Miscellaneous:

- AWACS ---- _Saab Erieye 2000 and ZDK-03_
- Air refuelling Aircrafts- ---- _Ilyushin Il-78_
- SAMs --- _Spada 2000_


----------



## Tracy

cb4 said:


> Air to Air Tactics:
> 
> - 2 JF-17 blk I vs 1 Su-30MkI
> or
> - 2 F-16 blk 30 vs 1 SU-30MKI
> or
> - 1 F-16 Blk 52 vs 1 Su-30 MKI
> or
> - 1 J-10B vs 1 SU-30MKI
> 
> Miscellaneous:
> 
> - AWACS ---- _Saab Erieye 2000 and ZDK-03_
> - Air refuelling Aircrafts- ---- _Ilyushin Il-78_
> - SAMs --- _Spada 2000_




I don't Think that above post is correct. because IAF 'll have numerical advantage over paf and MKI's are gonna come in packs. i think sukhoi30mki (or super sukhoi) equip with brahmos 'll be the game changer here.


----------



## acetophenol

cb4 said:


> Air to Air Tactics:
> 
> - 2 JF-17 blk I vs 1 Su-30MkI
> or
> - 2 F-16 blk 30 vs 1 SU-30MKI
> or
> - 1 F-16 Blk 52 vs 1 Su-30 MKI
> or
> - 1 J-10B vs 1 SU-30MKI
> 
> Miscellaneous:
> 
> - AWACS ---- _Saab Erieye 2000 and ZDK-03_
> - Air refuelling Aircrafts- ---- _Ilyushin Il-78_
> - SAMs --- _Spada 2000_



and for the mig-29,mirage 2000,rafale,tejas,mig-21 bison.......................etc???

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tracy

acetophenol said:


> and for the mig-29,mirage 2000,rafale,tejas,mig-21 bison.......................etc???



we are only taking su30mki or super sukhoi in context i guess.... ?


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

cb4 said:


> Air to Air Tactics:
> 
> - 2 JF-17 blk I vs 1 Su-30MkI
> or
> - 2 F-16 blk 30 vs 1 SU-30MKI
> or
> - 1 F-16 Blk 52 vs 1 Su-30 MKI
> or
> - 1 J-10B vs 1 SU-30MKI
> 
> Miscellaneous:
> 
> - AWACS ---- _Saab Erieye 2000 and ZDK-03_
> - Air refuelling Aircrafts- ---- _Ilyushin Il-78_
> - SAMs --- _Spada 2000_



Dude, when it comes to fighter aircrafts, 2 is not necessarily equal to one. 

An MKI's radar range will help it eliminate the FC-1's before they even discover what hit them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

Avisheik said:


> The MKI is a really advanced jet. Even though, in case of war, a few MKI may be shot down, its not possible for pakistan to bring down 100+ MKIs with just f16s, even if pakistanis find weakness with the MKI.



Hi,

I see that you are still in the numbers----100 is too much---a number between 15--20 su 30 shot down by paf on day 1, would run shudders in the ranks of Iaf. Once the cloak of invincibility is shattered---the psyche will be blown away. 

The myth of the su 30 will either be shattered on day 1 of the combat or it will be the end game for paf. But once the myth gets shattered---the rest of the iaf will be no match.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## acetophenol

Tracy said:


> we are only taking su30mki or super sukhoi in context i guess.... ?



anyway PAF is not going to sort out SU-30mki and fight them alone in the event of a war!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## acetophenol

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I see that you are still in the numbers----100 is too much---a number between 15--20 su 30 shot down by paf on day 1, would run shudders in the ranks of Iaf. Once the cloak of invincibility is shattered---the psyche will be blown away.
> 
> The myth of the su 30 will either be shattered on day 1 of the combat or it will be the end game for paf.



how do you expect to shoot down 25-30 mki on day 1?



MastanKhan said:


> But once the myth gets shattered---the rest of the iaf will be no match.



imagine even without the mki,
how do you think to take out IAF with its
1.MIG-29 upg
2.Mirage -2000
3.MIG-21 bison

and in near future
1.Rafale
2.Tejas

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Free Soul

ptldM3 said:


> The is just a statement based on lack of knowledge. The engines are not exposed, the unpainted area of the fuselage is just that, the fusalage. Some Flankers do have that part of the fusalage painted. Search a video search, &#8216;Sukhoi factory&#8217; and see what I mean.


And exactly this video proves my point that Engine is not encased in Fuselage. The engines are put in sort of engine nacelles. These are metallic casing not part of fuselage. See the distinct colour difference, the rest of the airframe is yellowish. The fuselage takes a cone shape past the cockpit (central beam section) extending back to tail forming a tip. Have a look at the photos the Engines are overly exposed, have a look at top of the engine nacelles. My argument is that because of these facts the IRS would be higher. 
Images below are taken from the video that you have linked.













ptldM3 said:


> Please just stop, for one TVC can be controlled, the pilot can choose to perform, wide turns, tight, terns, or a post stall to cause an overshoot.
> The point of the scissors, especially is to cause the other guy to overshoot. The aircraft with TVC can operate in speeds that would cause a conventional aircraft to stall.


And argument presented by me is that you don&#8217;t want to loose elevation while doing that. Seems like in every move the SU-30 wants to apply the &#8216;hand breaks&#8217;. All of these are so predictable moves, and sometimes deadly in practice. 
In a climb you never want to stall first, the idea is your opponent stalls first or roughly the same time with you having the elevation advantage, so you can get behind him - post stall - in a dive and gun him down. One needs to know his own potential energy and that of the opponent&#8217;s + you want to minimize your time in the stall so that you get back the control of your aircraft quickly &#8211; with TVC you are causing drag and potentially lowering your aircraft&#8217;s ceiling [putting yourself in post stall early] .
With greater mass creating drag, going post stall and loosing elevation should never be the aim. Like in RED FLAG While climbing in scissors thrust vectoring puts the aircraft in post stall manoeuvre, the rear end drops and instead of going up the aircraft starts loosing elevation. 



ptldM3 said:


> *Any* Flanker can do the cobra with a full weapons load.


Argued by countless pilots to be a fancy air show acrobat. Just for an example I will quote John Turner &#8211; Euro fighter Pilot &#8211; Farnborough air show 1996.


> Big problem that I have and most of the combat pilots that I have spoken to feel the same way, is that these are wonderful effects for an air show but don&#8217;t do much when you are in combat. And if you have a look at Harrier VIFF manoeuvre, when it was at first introduced it was thought to be absolutely wonderful. Not so much in Combat situations. He uses his nozzle just to slow his aircraft and make it stationary in air for a while. Well I have flown in a Phantom against someone doing that &#8211; and it was horrifying the first time you saw it, the second time you just shoot him out of the sky, because you know where he is going to be for the next few moments. That actually makes the combat pilot predictable, and one thing you do not want to in a modern combat is let the enemy know what you are going to do next.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Skull and Bones

A war has many dimensions, before MKI's intrude into enemy territory. All long range SAM and Radar installations will be taken out by missiles or by dedicated aircrafts in SEAD mission. 

Why do people miss this beauty, ask any Hellenic Air Force officials, Mirage 2000-9 is more than a match for F-16 Blk-52s. In every combat exercise, Mirages managed to Jam F-16 Blk-52 radars effectively, everytime. I wasn't aware of this fact, until recently an ex-Hellenic air force official joined our forum (IDF)

Reactions: Like Like:
18


----------



## Edevelop

Tracy said:


> I don't Think that above post is correct. because IAF 'll have numerical advantage over paf and *MKI's are gonna come in packs*. i think sukhoi30mki (or super sukhoi) equip with brahmos 'll be the game changer here.



What happened after Mumbai Attacks?
Why was there only 1 SU-30 in Pak air space?..... Eventually it was chased by an F-16 and Mirage V....

---------- Post added at 01:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 AM ----------




acetophenol said:


> and for the mig-29,mirage 2000,rafale,tejas,mig-21 bison.......................etc???



I am not going to troll. This thread is about SU-30 only....


----------



## JonAsad

so the baby talk whose d1ck is bigger has started again- 

btw
OP article is very informative-
nice read-


----------



## MastanKhan

Tracy said:


> In Case Of War PAF 'll act As a defensive force (mostly defensive offensive or defensive 2) missions....so i don't think IAF AWACS will help much because su30mki 'll strike deep into enemy airspace. but in other hand PAF can use AWACS advantage in their airspace and prepare a counter move.
> 
> PS: I am not taking other IAF fighters into account....(read thread topic)



Hi,

In case of war---paf will be an offencive air force and will strike deep----. Paf never was and never will be a defencive air force regardless of what your country has---plain and simple as that.

They would rather die striking deep into enemy space rather than die in their own space----.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Edevelop

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Dude, when it comes to fighter aircrafts, 2 is not necessarily equal to one.
> 
> An MKI's radar range will help it eliminate the FC-1's before they even discover what hit them.



Go look at the first page for SU-30's RCS....
I have answered the reason for 2....
Since JFT is made in Pakistan, we can make as much as we can. There is a reason why we want 350...


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

cb4 said:


> Go look at the first page for SU-30's RCS



How will you exploit the RCS without a good enough radar?


----------



## MastanKhan

acetophenol said:


> how do you expect to shoot down 25-30 mki on day 1?
> 
> 
> 
> imagine even without the mki,
> how do you think to take out IAF with its
> 1.MIG-29 upg
> 2.Mirage -2000
> 3.MIG-21 bison
> 
> and in near future
> 1.Rafale
> 2.Tejas



Hi,

One at a time---and sometimes two----. Would that be okay.

Don't worry---these will be taken out as well----I was just talking about the mindset---if it happened that way----period. Thank you.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## JonAsad

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> How will you exploit the RCS without a good enough radar?



thus- a jet with such huge RCS cannot strike deep-
we have AWACS to compensate the lack in radar-

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## acetophenol

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In case of war---paf will be an offencive air force and will strike deep----. Paf never was and never will be a defencive air force regardless of what your country has---plain and simple as that.
> 
> They would rather die striking deep into enemy space rather than die in their own space----.



in case of PAF being an offensive force , PAF will have to counter the entire IAF+one of the largest SAM network in the world
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/160166-indias-surface-air-capability.html


----------



## JonAsad

tbh honest i dont think MKI's will ever cross the border-
the only indian jets we'll see falling down are- migs- mirages- and bisons-
the flagship fighters are usualy saved up for last desperate measures- the delima we were at in 71 with the star fighters-

---------- Post added at 08:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 AM ----------

- off topic quote removed---
---------- Post added at 08:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 AM ----------




acetophenol said:


> in case of PAF being an offensive force , PAF will have to counter the entire IAF+one of the largest SAM network in the world
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/160166-indias-surface-air-capability.html


 
thats a nice thread you got there-


----------



## Edevelop

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> How will you exploit the RCS without a good enough radar?



So you think F-16s chasing SU-30 after Mumbai attacks was guess work??
To some extent, our radars failed against the U.S. However, i don't remember the same ones failing against India....
Once you violet our airspace, we always get ready to answer...
Again as i have mentioned earlier, we will increase JF-17 to 350. On top of that, our F-16s will go up to 100+ 
Don't forget the fact that JF-17 will have an AESA radar. This will boost our capability to strike.

If I am in PAF, i would first plan to wipe out all SU-30s in Indians bases as fast as i can, maybe good special aircrafts are needed for this i.e stealth....


----------



## JonAsad

plus in case of a war with Pakistan they cannot check china with bisons- and the risk of loosing MKI is too much-

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

JonAsad said:


> tbh honest i dont think MKI's will ever cross the border-
> the only indian jets we'll see falling down are- migs- mirages- and bisons-
> the flagship fighters are usualy saved up for last desperate measures- the delima we were at in 71 with the star fighters.



Its more like leaving the work to be done by specialists. If Su-30MKI goes deep into Pakistani territory, SAM threat will be maximum than any other aircrafts, same thing applies for F-16s too, if it intrudes into Indian territory.


----------



## acetophenol

JonAsad said:


> plus in case of a war they cannot check china with bisons-



how about you people checking USAF+its allies???

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Skull and Bones

cb4 said:


> *So you think F-16s chasing SU-30 after Mumbai attacks was guess work??*
> To some extent, our radars failed against the U.S. I don't remember the same ones failing against India....
> Once you violet our airspace, we always get ready tp answer instantly...
> Again as i have mentioned earlier, we will increase JF-17 to 350. On top of that, our F-16s will go up to 100+
> Don't forget the fact that JF-17 will have an AESA radar. This will boost our capability to strike.
> 
> If I am in PAF, i would first plan to wipe out all SU-30s in Indians bases as fast as i can, maybe good special aircrafts are needed for this i.e stealth....



I've heard many members bringing up that incident, Any link supporting that claim?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mech

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> One at a time---and sometimes two----. Would that be okay.
> 
> Don't worry---these will be taken out as well----I was just talking about the mindset---if it happened that way----period. Thank you.


 
This is quite ridiculous. The PAF has nothing ( when considering aircraft assets ) , to counter the MKI. It is out-classed qualitatively and quantitatively. And that bit about the PAF jets dying on enemy airspace.............;

They can die wherever they please....we are not monsters after all.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## DARKY

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I see that you are still in the numbers----100 is too much---a number between 15--20 su 30 shot down by paf on day 1, would run shudders in the ranks of Iaf. Once the cloak of invincibility is shattered---the psyche will be blown away.
> 
> The myth of the su 30 will either be shattered on day 1 of the combat or it will be the end game for paf. But once the myth gets shattered---the rest of the iaf will be no match.


 
Sir is it like game of Cricket ?... 1st 15 overs and Sehwag/Afridi takes the match away.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## JonAsad

Skull and Bones said:


> Its more like leaving the work to be done by specialists. If Su-30MKI goes deep into Pakistani territory, SAM threat will be maximum than any other aircrafts, same thing applies for F-16s too, if it intrudes into Indian territory.


 
Well this is just what i said- flagship fighters MKI's and F-16 will be assigned defensive roles-

while you'll see alot of JF-17's and Mirages in forward bombing or deep strike roles-




acetophenol said:


> Post of a classic 16yo drooling fanboy-
> 
> and
> thanks for the compliment.


 
chote i expected a rebuttal not a fart- ifits above your league to comprehend wait for your ovulation-

---------- Post added at 08:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 AM ----------




acetophenol said:


> how about you people checking USAF+its allies???



worry about your self only- we love you more than amrikans- -

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

JonAsad said:


> thus- a jet with such huge RCS cannot strike deep-
> we have AWACS to compensate the lack in radar-



AWACS are vulnerable assets when your enemy can go a loop around Iran and enter the border from Balochistan/Afghanistan and strike the AWACS with Stand off weapons like K-100/172... your turkey needs more protection.


----------



## Tumba

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I see that you are still in the numbers----100 is too much---a number between 15--20 su 30 shot down by paf on day 1, would run shudders in the ranks of Iaf. Once the cloak of invincibility is shattered---the psyche will be blown away.
> 
> The myth of the su 30 will either be shattered on day 1 of the combat or it will be the end game for paf. But once the myth gets shattered---the rest of the iaf will be no match.



haha 15-20 MKIs in one day that too by 18 BLK 52s with kill switch in hands of your great ally ... and BLK 52 is your most advance plane that gets regularly beaten by IAF in various exercises ... i dont think you know ...Singapore BLK 52s are regularly station in Indian air force base near kolkatta ... as singapore has leased a good part of that base for training thr Blk 52s... IAF will eat your whole air force for breakfast ...

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## acetophenol

JonAsad said:


> worry about your self only- we love you more than amrikans- -



you took a situation of you ally (china) coming to you help and i took out "allies" coming to our help!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

JonAsad said:


> Well this is just what i said- MKI's and F-16 will be assigned defensive roles-
> 
> while you'll see alot of JF-17's and Mirages in forward bombing or deep strike roles-



JF-17 deployed for deep strike will be another strategic error for PAF, TBH PAF doesn't have any aircraft for deep strikes role other than F-16s. 

JF-17 doesn't have the payload nor the agility required for deep strikes. And for border bombing, even Mirage III is fine but not deep strikes. Just because some PAF aircrafts managed to get into deep Indian territory in 1965, doesn't mean they can do the same now. Google Sword Fish and Super Green Pine radar, you'll get the scenario where PAF is standing now.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## JonAsad

acetophenol said:


> sorry bro if i hurt you.
> whats pdf without us fighting like this!
> 
> BTW,can you elaborate pakistan's SAM capability.?



its not a fight club- there is alot in PDF other than fighting- 
there are lot of scattered Pakistan SAM threads- go through them-


----------



## DARKY

JonAsad said:


> Well this is just what i said- flagship fighters MKI's and F-16 will be assigned defensive roles-
> 
> while you'll see alot of JF-17's and Mirages in forward bombing or deep strike roles-



I don't know about Pakistan but Su30MKI would do air-superiority role and most probably F-16 would intercept them... can't imagine a JF-17/F-7 until all F-16s are downed/engaged/hidden in balochistan... It would be the case of 2 F-7 and 2 JF-17 along with F-16s but there would be too many to intercept at too many points.


----------



## JonAsad

acetophenol said:


> you took a situation of you ally (china) coming to you help and i took out "allies" coming to our help!



did i say china will come to help us?-
in an event of war can you just risk ignoring china and take all you aerial assets to Pakistan border?-
and no- the threat china is to you- amrika is not to us-
i am done talking with kids-


----------



## CaptainJackSparrow

cb4 said:


> Since JFT is made in Pakistan, we can make as much as we can.



Not unless you have a magic wand which produces an aircraft every time you wave it.

...and lest you forget. MKI is also made in India as soon will be Rafale.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Edevelop

Skull and Bones said:


> I've heard many members bringing up that incident, Any link supporting that claim?



Dec 14, 2008, PM: Aircraft Descriptions:

Lahore: 2x Indian Air Force Su-30 (armed)  intercepted and escorted out by 3x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 3x F-7s
Muzaffarabad: 3x Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 (armed)  intercepted and escorted out by 2x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 2x F-7s.
BREAKING NEWS: PAF Chases away Indian Jets « Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz

People here that have links to PAF have confirmed this....

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## acetophenol

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Not unless you have a magic wand which produces an aircraft every time you wave it.
> 
> ...and lest you forget. MKI is also made in India as soon will be Rafale.



as iceing on the cake,we have the capability to produce
1.Mig-21 bisons
2.LCA Tejas
3.BVR missiles


----------



## JonAsad

acetophenol said:


> my point is that in the event china attacks us in anyway,
> out allies (its "amerika" and party+russia) will definitly come to India's help.



China will not attack any one- neither i hv said that- 
the point i am making is- well leave it-

---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 AM ----------




cb4 said:


> Dec 14, 2008, PM: Aircraft Descriptions:
> 
> Lahore: 2x Indian Air Force Su-30 (armed)  intercepted and escorted out by 3x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 3x F-7s
> Muzaffarabad: 3x Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 (armed)  intercepted and escorted out by 2x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 2x F-7s.
> BREAKING NEWS: PAF Chases away Indian Jets « Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz
> 
> People here that have links to PAF have confirmed this....


 
that was right after 26/11-


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

Oh what a great RCS of SU-30 mki.
Aircraft Radar cross section (estimate)
*Sukhoi Su-30MKI -------------> 20 square metres*
JF17 -------------------> 3-4 Square metres
Dassault Rafale ----------------> 2 square metres
Eurofighter Typhoon ----------------> 1 square metre
Sukhoi Su-35BM ------------------- > 1 square metre
Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk-------------------> 0.025 square metres
Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor--------------> 0.0001 square metres

He he he, too much RCS for SU30 -MKI.
MKI is inviting itself to shoot him. 

Counters measures:
1. Enhance AWACS in numbers.
2. Get advantage of F7s, 400 mirage with AWACS. Just matter of see first, then pilot skills.
3. Hack the data link of SU 30 MKI if he comes in our Land. There are pretty good hackers in our country. Just hack their communication with IAF, Not only hack, but also alternate the instructions of CIPs(Common Integrated Processor) of SU 30MKI using virus. Iranian used virus and just alternated the instruction on drone. Hacking data link communication of SU30MKIwill have unique Advantage. 
Create hackers, Hack the enemy.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Edevelop

Tumba said:


> a BIG FAT LOL on that source... pakistanis and thr sources and thr conspiracy theories .. haha  thanks for the laugh



So people here that have links to PAF are lying? 
I can see you are under pressure....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Oh what a great RCS of SU-30 mki.
> Aircraft Radar cross section (estimate)
> *Sukhoi Su-30MKI 20 square metres*
> JF17 3-4 Square metres
> Dassault Rafale 2 square metres
> Eurofighter Typhoon 1 square metre
> Sukhoi Su-35BM 1 square metre
> Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk 0.025 square metres
> Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor 0.0001 square metres
> 
> He he he, too much RCS for SU30 -MKI.
> MKI is inviting itself to shoot him.
> 
> Counters measures:
> 1. Enhance AWACS in numbers.
> 2. Get advantage of F7s, 400 mirage with AWACS. Just matter of see first, then pilot skills.
> 3. Hack the data link of SU 30 MKI if he comes in our Land. There are pretty good hackers in our country. Just hack their communication with IAF, Not only hack, but also alternate the instructions of CIPs(Common Integrated Processor) of SU 30MKI using virus. Iranian used virus and just alternated the instruction on drone. Hacking data link communication of SU30MKIwill have unique Advantage.
> Create hackers, Hack the enemy.



Ok Mr Einstein, F-15 Strike Eagle has 18 Sq m of RCS, how many F-15s does Iraq managed to shoot down with much better Air force and SAM than Pakistan has now?




> 3. Hack the data link of SU 30 MKI if he comes in our Land. There are pretty good hackers in our country. Just hack their communication with IAF, Not only hack, but also alternate the instructions of CIPs(Common Integrated Processor) of SU 30MKI using virus. Iranian used virus and just alternated the instruction on drone. Hacking data link communication of SU30MKIwill have unique Advantage.



Nice one 

Does this process applies to US Predator Drones too?

Reactions: Like Like:
15


----------



## ptldM3

Free Soul said:


> And exactly this video proves my point that Engine is not encased in Fuselage. The engines are put in sort of engine nacelles. These are metallic casing not part of fuselage. See the distinct colour difference, the rest of the airframe is yellowish. The fuselage takes a cone shape past the cockpit (central beam section) extending back to tail forming a tip. Have a look at the photos the Engines are overly exposed, have a look at top of the engine nacelles. My argument is that because of these facts the IRS would be higher.
> Images below are taken from the video that you have linked.




If your argument were ridiculous before they are now off the charts ridiculous. You are claiming that the engines are not encased in the fuselage yet you show a photograph of the fuselage where the engines are placed.

Do a Google search for the AL-31, the AL-31 is much thinner than what the nacelles are. Dont be foolish enough to believe that just because the fuselage follows the same curvature as the engines that those are engines. The engines are secured to the inner bulkheads of the fuselage.







And that opening is an access panel that they remove for maintanance that than gets put back later. 

And the other thing that you are refering to as an exposed engine is the nozzle, all aircraft have them. 




Free Soul said:


> And argument presented by me is that you dont want to loose elevation while doing that. Seems like in every move the SU-30 wants to apply the hand breaks. All of these are so predictable moves, and sometimes deadly in practice.




Elevation has nothing to do with it. The pilot is in total control of the aircraft, the pilot can decide how far to pitch the nose and for how long. The pilot can decide what airspeed to do it at and how he wants to recover.




Free Soul said:


> In a climb you never want to stall first, the idea is your opponent stalls first or roughly the same time with you having the elevation advantage, so you can get behind him - post stall - in a dive and gun him down.




This is a failed logic, a thrust vectoring aircraft can maintain a controlled stall, a conventional aircraft can not. Going vertically a Flanker can slow down enough to cause an overshoot while still maintaining control. In short a conventional aircraft never wants to stall first because once he does hell be in the line of sight of the aircraft with trust vectoring. In a vertical scissors the aircraft that has no trust vectoring is screwed unless the other pilot is a total moron.








Free Soul said:


> Like in RED FLAG While climbing in scissors thrust vectoring puts the aircraft in post stall maneuver, the rear end drops and instead of going up the aircraft starts loosing elevation.



A well flown flanker can do a post stall or a cobra without losing altitude, but clearly you were not aware of that.




Free Soul said:


> Argued by countless pilots to be a fancy air show acrobat. Just for an example I will quote John Turner  Euro fighter Pilot  Farnborough air show 1996.



No need to quote a pilot that has never flown an aircraft with trust vectoring let alone ever faced one. Most pilots that have flown trust vectored aircraft including F-22 pilots can vouch that it gives them a major advantage, and not just in post stall maneuvers. Trust vectoring engines enhance an aircrafts performanceperiod. I dont think Lockheed Martin would put Trust vectoring engines in the F22 if it would degrade performance as you claim, nor would they waste large sums of money by incorporating trust vectoring. There has been a lot of red faced pilots that has gone up against aircraft that performed post stall maneuvers, German Migs made a mockery of F-16s, in one exercise one F-16 took 18 Archers from a Mig-29.

Reactions: Like Like:
14


----------



## JonAsad

acetophenol said:


> as iceing on the cake,we have the capability to produce
> 1.Mig-21 bisons
> *2.LCA Tejas*
> 3.BVR missiles



right now i dont think so- -


----------



## Tumba

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Oh what a great RCS of SU-30 mki.
> Aircraft Radar cross section (estimate)
> *Sukhoi Su-30MKI -------------> 20 square metres*
> JF17 -------------------> 3-4 Square metres
> Dassault Rafale ----------------> 2 square metres
> Eurofighter Typhoon ----------------> 1 square metre
> Sukhoi Su-35BM ------------------- > 1 square metre
> Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk-------------------> 0.025 square metres
> Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor--------------> 0.0001 square metres
> 
> He he he, too much RCS for SU30 -MKI.
> MKI is inviting itself to shoot him.
> 
> Counters measures:
> 1. Enhance AWACS in numbers.
> 2. Get advantage of F7s, 400 mirage with AWACS. Just matter of see first, then pilot skills.
> 3. Hack the data link of SU 30 MKI if he comes in our Land. There are pretty good hackers in our country. Just hack their communication with IAF, Not only hack, but also alternate the instructions of CIPs(Common Integrated Processor) of SU 30MKI using virus. Iranian used virus and just alternated the instruction on drone. Hacking data link communication of SU30MKIwill have unique Advantage.
> Create hackers, Hack the enemy.



i dont knw if you really understands what kind of assets your air force needs to take advantage of big RCS of Su - 30 MKIs ... 
MKI is a big bad beast with bigger radar and long range missiles ... MKI will detect all your fighters well in advance .... and send R-77 towards you much earlier in salvo of two each for every fighter ... i am not sorry to say .. but your air force is dead meat infront of IAF and specially against Su-30 mkis....


----------



## Skull and Bones

cb4 said:


> Dec 14, 2008, PM: Aircraft Descriptions:
> 
> Lahore: 2x Indian Air Force Su-30 (armed)  intercepted and escorted out by 3x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 3x F-7s
> Muzaffarabad: 3x Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 (armed)  intercepted and escorted out by 2x Pakistan Air Force F-16s and 2x F-7s.
> BREAKING NEWS: PAF Chases away Indian Jets « Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz
> 
> People here that have links to PAF have confirmed this....



Ok mate! I saw what you did there. 

Did you just posted the link of a blog?

Sorry, my mistake. I should have thought that you people have grown up reading Rupee news, so even blogs will do fine for you guys.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## acetophenol

JonAsad said:


> right now i dont think so- -



you are wrong jon bhai,
we are making tejas in home as of now.


----------



## Skull and Bones

JonAsad said:


> right now i dont think so- -



We think the same.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GURU DUTT

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Oh what a great RCS of SU-30 mki.
> Aircraft Radar cross section (estimate)
> *Sukhoi Su-30MKI -------------> 20 square metres*
> JF17 -------------------> 3-4 Square metres
> Dassault Rafale ----------------> 2 square metres
> Eurofighter Typhoon ----------------> 1 square metre
> Sukhoi Su-35BM ------------------- > 1 square metre
> Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk-------------------> 0.025 square metres
> Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor--------------> 0.0001 square metres
> 
> He he he, too much RCS for SU30 -MKI.
> MKI is inviting itself to shoot him.
> 
> Counters measures:
> 1*. Enhance AWACS in numbers.
> 2. Get advantage of F7s, 400 mirage with AWACS. Just matter of see first, then pilot skills.
> 3. Hack the data link of SU 30 MKI if he comes in our Land. There are pretty good hackers in our country. Just hack their communication with IAF, Not only hack, but also alternate the instructions of CIPs(Common Integrated Processor) of SU 30MKI using virus. Iranian used virus and just alternated the instruction on drone. Hacking data link communication of SU30MKIwill have unique Advantage.
> Create hackers, Hack the enemy*.



Dear Sir ...

i have a few questions kindly do replay
#1 Do you think Mki's will come in isolation?????????

#2 what do you think about Phalcon AWACS...why India bought it...& why its called probabally best in its class????????

#3 what will PAF gonna do about MKI's Radar(200Km trackin range + can engage 6 targets simontainously) + carries 12 AAM's with 100 Km plus range...often more than trackin range of your Jf-17

#4 what about indian soft power(hackkers & software proffessionals)

kindly do replay ..Thanks Again

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notorious_eagle

indianspetsnaz said:


> it may be godzilla on RCS but its EW suite and ECM can more than hold its own



No doubt but your adversary is also fielding some of the latest ECM tech, carrying Israeli EW tech does not automatically make it invincible. The question is can MKI's self protection pod hold against assets that are specifically designed to carry out electronic warfare, that is something nobody knows not even the IAF because they don't know what sort of EW gear the adversary is fielding. 



indianspetsnaz said:


> the SU-30MKI is designed to go deep into enemy airspace in order to achieve air superiority don't forget we can put 12 AAM's on that and the RVV-AE is much more capable than the AMRAAM C5



Those extra missiles are the first thing the MKI pilot will jettison once he realizes that a BVRAAM is on its way capable of conducting 50G's of manoeuvres, the TVC wont help in this scenario. The MKI is designed to enter deep into enemy airspace, the only question is how much resistance is going to be offered? 



indianspetsnaz said:


> not to mention the MKI's has the most advanced and capable fighter radar in the subcontinent so capable that the MKI could be used as a mini awacs which make its handy if it is on fighter escort missions.



But your adversaries fielding AWACS and 3D ground radars pretty much cancels out this advantage. 



indianspetsnaz said:


> hands down the SU-30MKI is the best fighter operational in the subcontinent and perhaps even all of asia.



Is it better than the F15 Strike Eagles that South Korea is going to field or Euro Fighters that Saudi Arabia is going to field? No doubt SU30MKI is a very good machine but dont make it out to be something its not. Wars are not fought on 1 on 1 basis, its fought in a collective cohesive force. 



indianspetsnaz said:


> and for that over confident USAF pilot go eat a fat one.



That over confident pilot has been a test pilot for more than 15 years on the F15, he has thousands of hours under his belt. He was being blunt in his assessment, the facts are the SU30MKI got hammered to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight 1 on 1 A2A fights. I know this was a big ego hurt for the Indian fanboys here on this forum because they were making the SU30MKI out into some God Gift of Aviation.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## JonAsad

Skull and Bones said:


> We think the same.


 
about what?-
right now JF-17 are past the trial stages are up and flying- are combat ready- firing- A2A-A2G missiles-


----------



## RazPaK

> I have been out of the PAF for a few years now- and in some respects have as much access to sources now as some civvie aviation fanatics- but still do retain contacts which give me the inside scoop sometimes. Here's my unbiased opinion on what happened in this incident. First some disclaimers- the IAF NEVER gave Chibber a big gallantry award- this was a routine award for a job well done- like an Air Medal in the USAF- not an award in the league of a Medal of Honor or DFC! Secondly, in this particular occasion, the PAF was bested- there, I said it- there's no shame in it- there have been many occasions in the past conflicts of 1965 and 1971 when it was the other way around- any professional pilot will tell you that success and failure are two sides of the same coin- anyone who claims to be invincible is lying or an adolescent amatuer masquerading as a professional. To lay this story to rest- and though the PAF is understandably not keen to trumpet it around town- those in the know know- lets keep it at that, so I'm not exactly revealing any state secrets.
> 
> The PAF in Kargil was NEVER tasked to aggressively counter the IAF (forget the crap about them being scared)- it was very much an Army (read Musharraf) show- with even the civilian leadership in the dark about some aspects. Our friendly neighborhood tinpot dictator (Musharraf) then looked for scrapegoats- so he got rid of Nawaz and then turned on the PAF for not doing its job (bullshit!!!) by firing much of its top brass recently. Forgive me for digressing, but as someone who dedicated his life to the service of Pakistan, I hate to see it falling back into dictatorship. But the key message is- the PAF was never under orders to engage the IAF, unless they crossed the LOC. On this occasion, I gather the Indian MiG-27s did cross the LOC briefly and the local NLI commander who was having the crap bombed out of him called in desparately for support- the PAF, which had been frustrated at having to sit it out till now, saw an opportunity to bloody the IAF nose as they were reported to have crossed the LOC. Two Falcons on alert were vectored into the MiGs, but received the jolt of their lives when an IAF MiG-29 locked onto BOTH of them (to answer the ongoing debate I see on this aspect of the IAF Mig-29s capability). They tried to break lock- but the MiG persisted, and while I do agree they could have pressed home- there were some controlling factors:
> 1) strict orders not to cross the LOC
> 2) Hell, they thought they were about to get a salvo of R-27s up their noses...as an aside, one of the Falcon pilots was a greenhorn and was pretty shaken by this experience- got razzed to death for weeks afterwards.
> 
> What would have happened if the Falcons had pressed home- who knows???? The MiG had a definite BVR edge and in close combat with the R-73/HMS, all bets are off. Plus, if the Falcons did cross the LOC, they would have been fair game to any other MiG-29s lurking about as they would no longer be over friendly terriotory- sometimes discretion is the better part of valour, n'est c'est pas?


Did you just write that?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## acetophenol

JonAsad said:


> i dont see any international source reported your daily glory story of alleged LOC crossing killings-



thats good!!!!

---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 PM ----------




JonAsad said:


> about what?-
> right now JF-17 are past the trial stages and are up and flying- firing- A2A-A2G missiles-



tejas is also flying and firing A2A A2G missiles!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## prabhakar

PAKISTANI assuming that IAf will play into the hands of PAF  we will play at our strength.

Just let me ask

For how long f-16 18 Blk 52 can remain in the air without having reservice. I think for every one hour of flying it needs a rest of 8 Hrs. The availabilty and efficiency of This blk 52 is a big question mark...on the other hand MKI enjoys on all this front

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

RazPaK said:


> ^
> 
> Did you just write that?



I you were referring to my post then no I copied and pasted... don't ask from where...lol..


----------



## Skull and Bones

JonAsad said:


> about what?-
> right now JF-17 are past the trial stages and are up and flying- firing- A2A-A2G missiles-



I was talking about Tejas, its FOC is due next year. Bdw even Tejas is Firing A2A and A2G missiles. 

My point was it was not appropriate time to bring Tejas into discussion as of now. Got it?


----------



## JonAsad

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Pakistanis also claim that Paranab Mukherjee called your President and threatened war.
> 
> It turned out to be a petty criminal from one of your jails who called your President.
> 
> So we all know how things roll in Pakistan, don't we, Jon?



Talking about how things roll- funny-

when the glorious surgical strikes rant with all that shinny equipment and MKI still remained a wet dream-

your mki's had to go back after just wasting fuel-

thats how things roll here-


----------



## Tumba

notorious_eagle said:


> No doubt but your adversary is also fielding some of the latest ECM tech, carrying Israeli EW tech does not automatically make it invincible. The question is can MKI's self protection pod hold against assets that are specifically designed to carry out electronic warfare, that is something nobody knows not even the IAF because they don't know what sort of EW gear the adversary is fielding.
> 
> 
> 
> Those extra missiles are the first thing the MKI pilot will jettison once he realizes that a BVRAAM is on its way capable of conducting 50G's of manoeuvres, the TVC wont help in this scenario. The MKI is designed to enter deep into enemy airspace, the only question is how much resistance is going to be offered?
> 
> 
> 
> But your adversaries fielding AWACS and 3D ground radars pretty much cancels out this advantage.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it better than the F15 Strike Eagles that South Korea is going to field or Euro Fighters that Saudi Arabia is going to field? No doubt SU30MKI is a very good machine but dont make it out to be something its not. Wars are not fought on 1 on 1 basis, its fought in a collective cohesive force.
> 
> 
> 
> That over confident pilot has been a test pilot for more than 15 years on the F15, he has thousands of hours under his belt. He was being blunt in his assessment, the facts are the SU30MKI got hammered to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight 1 on 1 A2A fights. I know this was a big ego hurt for the Indian fanboys here on this forum because they were making the SU30MKI out into some God Gift of Aviation.


 

all i gotta say ... you really need to check and recheck on internet and then say about capabilities and counter capabilities of two air forces and specially MKIs ... please spare the brain farts ... 
as i have already posted pakistani air force and its.. surface defense and air defense capabilities are severely mismatched to handle 4.5+ gen aircrafts in big numbers /// PAF will be get checkmate with in hours ...


----------



## Alchemy

notorious_eagle said:


> Is it better than the F15 Strike Eagles that South Korea is going to field or Euro Fighters that Saudi Arabia is going to field? No doubt SU30MKI is a very good machine but dont make it out to be something its not. *Wars are not fought on 1 on 1 basis, its fought in a collective cohesive force. *



Really ,Are you serious ?You think PAF is stronger than IAF conventionally as a "Collective cohesive force" ???.... If you really think it to be true then you are expecting too much from PAF ... Qualitatively and quantitatively IAF is way stronger on the very same parameters that you mentioned and you know it . The only parity comes into picture if it turns into a nuclear scenario .

Since the thread is conventional in nature , any neutral observer would conclude there is no match .If you still feel otherwise, good luck to you

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

GURU DUTT said:


> Dear Sir ...
> 
> i have a few questions kindly do replay
> #1 Do you think Mki's will come in isolation?????????
> probably
> #2 what do you think about Phalcon AWACS...why India bought it...& why its called probabally best in its class????????
> Not best for offense, You can't bring AWACS in front line, or too easy for F16s or Jf17. But in defensive position Pak has advantage for AWACS, because it just surrounded by jets. AWACS has advantage in defensive position.
> #3 what will PAF gonna do about MKI's Radar(200Km trackin range + can engage 6 targets simontainously) + carries 12 AAM's with 100 Km plus range...often more than trackin range of your Jf-17
> With AWACS even F7 will be in best position to tackle it move. No need for F16s. These days MKI can be killed with latest tactics.
> 
> #4 what about indian soft power(hackkers & software proffessionals)
> kindly do replay ..Thanks Again


i have a few questions kindly do replay
#1 *Do you think Mki's will come in isolation?????????*
probably 
#2 *what do you think about Phalcon AWACS...why India bought it...& why its called probabally best in its class????????*
Not best for offensive position, You can't bring AWACS in front line, or too easy for F16s or Jf17. But in defensive position Pak has advantage for AWACS, because it just surrounded by jets. AWACS has a more advantage in defensive position. 
*#3 what will PAF gonna do about MKI's Radar(200Km trackin range + can engage 6 targets simontainously) + carries 12 AAM's with 100 Km plus range...often more than trackin range of your Jf-17*
With AWACS even F7 will be in best position to tackle it move. Even No need for F16s. These days MKI can be killed with latest tactics even using F7 and mirages.
Sorry i forget F16s and Jf17s.

*#4 what about indian soft power(hackkers & software proffessionals)*
Can be useful for defensive purpose. But you can't hack data link of jets unless it comes in your space.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## acetophenol

JonAsad said:


> Great- let it fly then- induct it- before its too late-
> Can you call it combat ready?-



no,it cannot be called combat ready.

*but if* PAF manages to destroy the *entire IAF* and penetrate through the around *15,500 anti-aircraft systems,* we may make the tejas and field them.

---------- Post added at 02:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------




JonAsad said:


> Lol- this is childs play- try to get the message-



i am also telling you the same!


----------



## notorious_eagle

Tumba said:


> all i gotta say ... you really need to check and recheck on internet and then say about capabilities and counter capabilities of two air forces and specially MKIs ... please spare the brain farts ...
> as i have already posted pakistani air force and its.. surface defense and air defense capabilities are severely mismatched to handle 4.5+ gen aircrafts in big numbers /// *PAF will be get checkmate with in hours *...



Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy . Last two times when both forces were staring at each other, it certainly wasn't PAF that blinked and backed out of a fight. I am a big believer of actions speak louder than words, and clearly the last two times PAF actions spoke louder than their words. 

@Mods. Can you please close this thread. Indian fanboy troll brigade has ruined this thread. They are spreading out on PDF like mosquitos and constantly ruining the quality of this forum.



Tumba said:


> eating PAF for halwa will be aadha kadam yonly



Than whose stopping you. Jo badal garajtay hain woh barastay nahi. Instead of chest thumping, put your words into action.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## GURU DUTT

notorious_eagle said:


> No doubt but your adversary is also fielding some of the latest ECM tech, carrying Israeli EW tech does not automatically make it invincible. The question is can MKI's self protection pod hold against assets that are specifically designed to carry out electronic warfare, that is something nobody knows not even the IAF because they don't know what sort of EW gear the adversary is fielding.
> 
> 
> 
> Those extra missiles are the first thing the MKI pilot will jettison once he realizes that a BVRAAM is on its way capable of conducting 50G's of manoeuvres, the TVC wont help in this scenario. The MKI is designed to enter deep into enemy airspace, the only question is how much resistance is going to be offered?
> 
> 
> 
> But your adversaries fielding AWACS and 3D ground radars pretty much cancels out this advantage.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it better than the F15 Strike Eagles that South Korea is going to field or Euro Fighters that Saudi Arabia is going to field? No doubt SU30MKI is a very good machine but dont make it out to be something its not. Wars are not fought on 1 on 1 basis, its fought in a collective cohesive force.
> 
> 
> 
> That over confident pilot has been a test pilot for more than 15 years on the F15, he has thousands of hours under his belt. He was being blunt in his assessment, the facts are the SU30MKI got hammered to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight 1 on 1 A2A fights. I know this was a big ego hurt for the Indian fanboys here on this forum because they were making the SU30MKI out into some God Gift of Aviation.



bhai jaan power of ECM's were shhown in gulf war a& more reacentlly against Libia

which BVR???????? before your plane's even paint an MKI the MKI has a very Powerfull radar + BVR's also(12 with more range than your trackin range)

what about Phalcon's which can track/scan all your air space flying over amritsar+latest french 3D radars + Greenpine & swordfish+isrealy AESA based aerostat radar'sother indian radra's 

good luck with your pilot skill's as future battel's will be won & lost on the basis of BVR's & better Radar's& ECM's ...guess who has the upper hand here??????????


----------



## prabhakar

notorious_eagle said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy . Last two times when both forces were staring at each other, it certainly wasn't PAF that blinked and backed out of a fight. I am a big believer of actions speak louder than words, and clearly the last two times PAF actions spoke louder than their words.
> 
> @Mods. Can you please close this thread. Indian fanboy troll brigade has ruined this thread. They are spreading out on PDF like mosquitos and constantly ruining the quality of this forum.



Dear friend, Mighty PLAAF had also purchased the 'underperforming' Su30  I think it is the right time to replace it with Jf-17 blk 2

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

acetophenol said:


> isn't it?????????????????


I already said, IN this case we are in defensive position. AWACS are in *our *territory not in yours. That's why AWACS has more advantage for Pak.


----------



## DARKY

notorious_eagle said:


> No doubt but your adversary is also fielding some of the latest ECM tech, carrying Israeli EW tech does not automatically make it invincible. The question is can MKI's self protection pod hold against assets that are specifically designed to carry out electronic warfare, that is something nobody knows not even the IAF because they don't know what sort of EW gear the adversary is fielding.
> 
> IAF have self evaluated those techs.. thanks to Singapore and Israeli airfoce and yes MMRCA.
> BTW what pods does the adversary carries for jamming and ECM purpose.
> 
> Those extra missiles are the first thing the MKI pilot will jettison once he realizes that a BVRAAM is on its way capable of conducting 50G's of manoeuvres, the TVC wont help in this scenario. The MKI is designed to enter deep into enemy airspace, the only question is how much resistance is going to be offered?
> 
> Whats the point in turing the BVR upto 50gs ?.... or I should better ask which BVR makes such turns ?...
> About TVC how can you say it won't help... on what basis...
> 
> But your adversaries fielding AWACS and 3D ground radars pretty much cancels out this advantage.
> 
> What are you going to do with 3D radars and AWACS... you still need LRSAMs and your interceptor to get in range and fire its weapons... while the MKI can fire weapons on the 3D radar and AWACS way--way ouside from those ranges.
> 
> Is it better than the F15 Strike Eagles that South Korea is going to field or Euro Fighters that Saudi Arabia is going to field? No doubt SU30MKI is a very good machine but dont make it out to be something its not. Wars are not fought on 1 on 1 basis, its fought in a collective cohesive force.
> 
> Overall yes.
> 
> That over confident pilot has been a test pilot for more than 15 years on the F15, he has thousands of hours under his belt. He was being blunt in his assessment, the facts are the SU30MKI got hammered to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight 1 on 1 A2A fights. I know this was a big ego hurt for the Indian fanboys here on this forum because they were making the SU30MKI out into some God Gift of Aviation.



I had given the assessment of that experienced pilot of yours when he himself admitted the superiority of Su30 over F-15s and F-16s... and said only F-22 was better... in some troll thread... It was about pilots.


----------



## JonAsad

acetophenol said:


> no,*it cannot be called combat ready*.
> 
> *but if* PAF manages to destroy the *entire IAF* and penetrate through the around *15,500 anti-aircraft systems,* we may make the tejas and field them.



So its a fact- let me bring you back to the first post on tejas- which started all this-



acetophenol said:


> as iceing on the cake,we have the capability to produce
> 1.Mig-21 bisons
> *2.LCA Tejas*
> 3.BVR missiles





> right now i dont think so- -



what was the point after wasting 2-3 more posts- if it had to come to the bolded part?-- 


acetophenol said:


> i am also telling you the same!



what message about tejas did i miss?- enlighten me?-


----------



## notorious_eagle

prabhakar said:


> Dear friend, Mighty PLAAF had also purchased the 'underperforming' Su30  I think it is the right time to replace it with Jf-17 blk 2



Go read my first post on this thread. I clearly said that its a very good machine, but its not the best air plane in the world as you Indian fanboys are making it out to be. Its not a 'God's Gift to Aviation', its a good aircraft with both pros and cons. How old are you kids, God.



Tumba said:


> aur mian khudaa ka shukar mnaao hum sabr kiye hue hain jab para tootegaa to pakistan siraf history books me hoga ...



Yeh rooz raat ko apnay aap ko keh kar soo jaya karo, i am glad it helps you asleep and makes you feel all mighty and strong ahahahaa. All talk talk talk, no action from your side.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## acetophenol

JonAsad said:


> So its a fact- let me bring you back to the first post on tejas- which started all this-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what was the point after wasting 2-3 more posts- if it had to come to the bolded part?--
> 
> 
> what message about tejas did i miss?- enlighten me?-



whats wrong with my post?i told we have the capability to produce tejas and field them into war if neccessary.as of now ,the exisiting tejas-es can't be called combat ready,but they too can be "made" cpmbat ready if the situation arises.


----------



## JonAsad

acetophenol said:


> whats wrong with my post?i told we have the capability to produce tejas and field them into war if neccessary.as of now ,*the exisiting tejas-es can't be called combat ready*,



Exactly what i meant when i said- right now its not possible- dont know which part of it was rocket science- 



acetophenol said:


> but they too can be "made" cpmbat ready if the situation arises.



that will be a desperate measure- and will not yield the desired results for IAF-


----------



## acetophenol

JonAsad said:


> Exactly what i meant when i said- right now its not possible- dont know which part of it was rocket science-
> 
> 
> 
> *that will be a desperate measure- and will not yield the desired results for IAF-*




don't worry ,IAF will never have to face that situation.


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

tjpf said:


> in iraq war the americans messed with iraqis GPS which led to wrong data and targetting...
> plus PAF f16 comes with kill switch...
> 
> in war which country will USA help?


f16 comes with kill switch??
Means Rafale comes with France Kill switch. Sukui jets comes with Russian kill switch.
Oh this means you can't take risk of war with their ally countries.

This is nothing like that. F16 jets flew near afghan borders against militants, even US airbase is near.. It also flew near Indian borders many times.

Anyway topic is PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI if i am not wrong.


----------



## SQ8

Tumba said:


> *all i gotta say ... pakistanis should get some history lessons from neutral sources as thr history books are pretty lame to say the least .... kid your airforce was in non functional state with in couple of days both in 65 and 71 wars ... *
> 
> aur mian khudaa ka shukar mnaao hum sabr kiye hue hain jab para tootegaa to pakistan siraf history books me hoga ...



Somebody just got into secondary education.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## tjpf

Peaceful Civlian said:


> f16 comes with kill switch??
> *Means Rafale comes with France Kill switch. Sukui jets comes with Russian kill switch.*Oh this means you can't take risk of war with their ally countries.
> 
> This is nothing like that. F16 jets flew near afghan borders against militants, even US airbase is near.. It also flew near Indian borders many times.
> 
> Anyway topic is PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI if i am not wrong.



kill switch comes with planes given as aides and also to country with poor track record...

hmmm I am sure India doesn't fall in either of those categories

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Harry Potter

According to US diplomatic cables F-16's will give just a few days breather to PAf before it is destroyed completely:



> 3. (C) While we understand New Delhi's opposition to the program, the reality is that this program will not degrade India's overwhelming air superiority over Pakistan.





> Given India's overwhelming military superiority, this would only be a few days, but these days would allow critical time to mediate and prevent nuclear conflict.





> 12. (C) India enjoys an almost 2-1 advantage (736 to 370) over Pakistan in advanced multi-purpose fighters.*Pakistan's shortfalls in training and tactics multiply India's edge.*Pakistan also plans to buy/jointly produce 150 *inferior* JF-17 fighters from China, but it is unclear how they will pay for them.



The author is a very senior US diplomat-Anne W. Patterson.

Cable Viewer

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## GURU DUTT

Peaceful Civlian said:


> i have a few questions kindly do replay
> 
> *probably*
> 
> wakey wakey???
> 
> *Not best for offensive position, You can't bring AWACS in front line, or too easy for F16s or Jf17. But in defensive position Pak has advantage for AWACS, because it just surrounded by jets. AWACS has a more advantage in defensive position. *
> 
> 
> and what do you think ??? each phalcon is *always* by a bunch of MKI's + Bisons + whats more we dont even need to come in your airspace a phalcon flying well before amritsar or say bikaner can track all pakistani air space well beyond say your durand line
> 
> *With AWACS even F7 will be in best position to tackle it move. Even No need for F16s. These days MKI can be killed with latest tactics even using F7 and mirages.
> Sorry i forget F16s and Jf17s.*
> 
> ok what do you think about upgraded mirage 2000's & mig 29's with archer, derby, python 5 & MICA missiles + Bisons which are all BVR capable??????
> 
> 
> *Can be useful for defensive purpose. But you can't hack data link of jets unless it comes in your space.*


*

probably*
*
wakey wakey???

Not best for offensive position, You can't bring AWACS in front line, or too easy for F16s or Jf17. But in defensive position Pak has advantage for AWACS, because it just surrounded by jets. AWACS has a more advantage in defensive position.* 

and what do you think ??? each phalcon is *always* by a bunch of MKI's + Bisons + whats more we dont even need to come in your airspace a phalcon flying well before amritsar or say bikaner can track all pakistani air space well beyond say your durand line

you have an advantage in AWACS??????????

ook what about upg Mirage2000's & Mig 29's with Phalcon's & Indian AWACS ?????????

*With AWACS even F7 will be in best position to tackle it move. Even No need for F16s. These days MKI can be killed with latest tactics even using F7 and mirages.
Sorry i forget F16s and Jf17s.*

same as above????

*Can be useful for defensive purpose. But you can't hack data link of jets unless it comes in your space*

what about indian hackerrs do you think they will not attck you .......we have much much more than you can ever imagine


Ek kahawaat hai .....................

Kawwa jitnaa marjee oonchaa ur le rehta cheel ke neeche hee hai


----------



## JonAsad

acetophenol said:


> don't worry ,IAF will never have to face that situation.


 
i dont know what you are up to- you yourself had brought forth that scenario- 
Well if its for general appeasement- let me say this- The war is not going to happen- Duh!!!


----------



## SQ8

Harry Potter said:


> According to US diplomatic cables F-16's will give* just a few days breather* to PAf before it is destroyed completely:
> 
> Cable Viewer



The few days breather is all that is needed for the current doctrine to hold.

---------- Post added at 03:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 AM ----------




Tumba said:


> well you can check on net about that ,,, i am no tough guy but thats the facts atleast i am not fed up lies abt victories of pakistani military whn every time they got thr ***'s whipped ...



The internet and facts.. oh yes.


----------



## Bratva

JonAsad said:


> its good thing he deleted it-
> i was searching for some su-30 and rafael crashes-



1 or 2 months back, indian SU-30MKI crashed in Pune i guess.

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

Indian Fanboys always forgot, All F-16 in Pakistani inventory have JHMCS and AIM-120 C5 and block 52+ radar can easily detect SU-30MKI at 100-KM due to its hugh RCS!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

J-10b could handle su-30MKI easily. No need to worry

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Skull and Bones

wanglaokan said:


> J-10b could handle su-30MKI easily. No need to worry



Rafales could handle J-10B easily. They need to worry.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## praveen007

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Oh what a great RCS of SU-30 mki.
> Aircraft Radar cross section (estimate)
> *Sukhoi Su-30MKI -------------> 20 square metres*
> JF17 -------------------> 3-4 Square metres
> Dassault Rafale ----------------> 2 square metres
> Eurofighter Typhoon ----------------> 1 square metre
> Sukhoi Su-35BM ------------------- > 1 square metre
> Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk-------------------> 0.025 square metres
> Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor--------------> 0.0001 square metres
> 
> He he he, too much RCS for SU30 -MKI.
> MKI is inviting itself to shoot him.
> 
> Counters measures:
> 1. Enhance AWACS in numbers.
> 2. Get advantage of F7s, 400 mirage with AWACS. Just matter of see first, then pilot skills.
> 3. Hack the data link of SU 30 MKI if he comes in our Land. There are pretty good hackers in our country. Just hack their communication with IAF, Not only hack, but also alternate the instructions of CIPs(Common Integrated Processor) of SU 30MKI using virus. Iranian used virus and just alternated the instruction on drone. Hacking data link communication of SU30MKIwill have unique Advantage.
> Create hackers, Hack the enemy.


.
According to you and opening article of this thread f-16 will detect mki at about 35-40km, let just say at 50km at max and shoot it down with aim9x, but according to this source mki will detect a plane of RCS of about 2-3 sqm at range of about 80- 90 km with its NP-011M bars.
So your low vs high RCS goes dowm the drain and please do search before posting.
.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## INDIAISM

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I see that you are still in the numbers----100 is too much---a number between 15--20 su 30 shot down by paf on day 1, would run shudders in the ranks of Iaf. Once the cloak of invincibility is shattered---the psyche will be blown away.
> 
> The myth of the su 30 will either be shattered on day 1 of the combat or it will be the end game for paf. But once the myth gets shattered---the rest of the iaf will be no match.


And how about if those 25-30 Su 30Mki before getting shot...were able to shot 25-30 F16's or j 10 of PAF ....think about this scenareo too.....

Then the Myth about Paf pilots being superior to their counter part will be shattered.....Result will be 
Game Over....


----------



## Skull and Bones

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> I really don't think we should we wasting our Rafale's on the western border.



For western borders, we have more than enough to negate PAFs any advantage.

Mirage 2000-9 (Ungraded Radar, engine, MICA and METEOR integrated)
Mig-29 UPG (Longer range with CFT, upgraded radar and avionics, better ECMs)
Jaguar (better engine, perfect for strike role near border areas)
Mig-27 (Ground Attack)

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Free Soul

ptldM3 said:


> If your argument were ridiculous before they are now off the charts ridiculous. You are claiming that the engines are not encased in the fuselage yet you show a photograph of the fuselage where the engines are placed.Do a Google search for the AL-31, the AL-31 is much thinner than what the nacelles are. Dont be foolish enough to believe that just because the fuselage follows the same curvature as the engines that those are engines. The engines are secured to the inner bulkheads of the fuselage.


My Comrade Bro
By all means play blind if you so wish. Firstly the very very thin :p AL-31 Engine is not encased in Fuselage. You provide proof against your argument and then play dumb  , well i dont mind.
It is under slung Engine configuration with air intakes underneath the wings. Then coming to nacelles that you are justifying as Fuselage is just great logic. So you say AL-31 is much thinner than what the nacelles are, thank you for admitting that the thin  Engines are enclosed in nacelles. Do you know what nacelles are? Now look up what nacelle is on web. Rather i will make it easy for you.
Nacelle is a cover housing - separate from the fuselage - that holds engines, fuel, or equipment on an aircraft
Now i will state again The engines are put in sort of engine nacelles. These are metallic casing and not part of fuselage . 
There are tons of SU-27 evolution videos by Aviation Historians. I am quoting from that.
The engine casing and nozzle act as grey bodies and emit radiation in all IR bands. 



ptldM3 said:


> And that opening is an access panel that they remove for maintanance that than gets put back later.



Thank you again. My apologies Sir, surely these are the access areas on the nacelles. not the part of the semi-monologue Fuselage. 
Again the argument here my sarcastic friend is that the Engine doesnt need to be fully naked to be pointed out as OVERLY EXPOSED. Read a paper or two on IRS, engine IR signature. 
I will rephrase - The Overly exposed engines does not mean that the engines are sitting naked at the rear end of the aircraft. I am talking in terms of IRS. 
Below was in original post and i mentioned The engine casing (engine nacelles). Still not satisfied? Well fine :/

The aircraft rear fuselage has a large surface area at relatively low temperature, which is primarily heated by the embedded powerplant and external aerodynamic heating by the freestream. _An Engine encased in the fuselage reduces the IR Signature _.

*The engine casing (engine nacelles) *and nozzle act as grey bodies and emit radiation in all IR bands  
*In case of SU30MKI it is even exacerbated by the overly exposed twin engines* , thereby making IR detection easier 

And regarding your obsession with King Cobra manoeuvre, i will get back to it later  ta

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## joekrish

What is the best BVR that Pakistan has?


----------



## RazPaK

Why are Indians so BVR-centric?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

joekrish said:


> What is the best BVR that Pakistan has?



F-16 Blk 52, they got 18 of such fighter.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## GURU DUTT

mafiya said:


> 1 or 2 months back, indian SU-30MKI crashed in Pune i guess.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------
> 
> *Indian Fanboys always forgot, All F-16 in Pakistani inventory have JHMCS and AIM-120 C5 and block 52+ radar can easily detect SU-30MKI at 100-KM due to its hugh RCS!*



really...im so scared.........brrrrrrrrrr????
but what about

Mirage 2000-9 (Ungraded Radar, engine, MICA and METEOR integrated)
Mig-29 UPG (Longer range with CFT, upgraded radar and avionics, better ECMs)
Jaguar (better engine, perfect for strike role near border areas)
Mig-27 (Ground Attack)
Pcalcon's+aerostat+greenpine+french 3D+Indra2 & Rohini 3D radar's & not to mention Mki's powerfull BARS ESA Radar's with 200km+ Range carrying 12 BVR's of 120km+ range


----------



## DARKY

Skull and Bones said:


> For western borders, we have more than enough to negate PAFs any advantage.
> 
> Mirage 2000-9 (Ungraded Radar, engine, MICA and METEOR integrated)
> Mig-29 UPG (Longer range with CFT, upgraded radar and avionics, better ECMs)
> Jaguar (better engine, perfect for strike role near border areas)
> Mig-27 (Ground Attack)



Add bisons... Tejas would follow later.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nomi007

read this
you are forgetting something
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/18533-iaf-plane-pakistan-photo-shown-coas-usa.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

RazPaK said:


> Why are Indians so BVR-centric?



Because you don't stand a chance in WVR.

Even Su-27 can out turn any western jet, now add TVC and canards to it. F-16 Blk-52 falls more in the Mig-29M or Mirage 2000-9 range.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## GURU DUTT

RazPaK said:


> Why are Indians so BVR-centric?



because you always fight with your strenth's & its not 60's or 70's when UNKIL was with you no matter what

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PoKeMon

Skull and Bones said:


> For western borders, we have more than enough to negate PAFs any advantage.
> 
> Mirage 2000-9 (Ungraded Radar, engine, MICA and METEOR integrated)
> Mig-29 UPG (Longer range with CFT, upgraded radar and avionics, better ECMs)
> Jaguar (better engine, perfect for strike role near border areas)
> Mig-27 (Ground Attack)



I dont think Rafale would exclusively be used against PLAF.

Rafale must be used in formation with Su 30 MKI and Mig 29 to negate any shortcomings of them. May be 2 squadrons at western end.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

DARKY said:


> Add bisons... Tejas would follow later.



Role of Bison is unique. They don't engage fighters, they just scatter the incoming formation and buying time to make Mig-29 and Su-30MKIs airborne.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Sure, why not.
> 
> Heck, we should even buy some struff from the UK. I heard the UK is willing to sell some of its stuff pretty cheap.



Are you hinting towards Harrier AV8?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PoKeMon

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Exactly.
> 
> PAF doesn't deserve Rafale.



But there ground SAM installation would like to be annihilated by them in SEAD operations.


----------



## GURU DUTT

cb4 said:


> What happened to India in 1965?
> Didn't they have advance/large quantity of fighter jets? How come this scenario failed?



sirjee that was almost 50 years ago...its 2012 now and cant say about you but IAF has learned a lot in that time + we also have better & more fighter jets than you

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SQ8

Thread not even close to the topic..
closed.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I see that you are still in the numbers----100 is too much---a number between 15--20 su 30 shot down by paf on day 1, would run shudders in the ranks of Iaf. Once the cloak of invincibility is shattered---the psyche will be blown away.
> 
> The myth of the su 30 will either be shattered on day 1 of the combat or it will be the end game for paf. But once the myth gets shattered---the rest of the iaf will be no match.



Sir,

sadly this pretty much sums up the grasp of the fanboy club when out of jingoism they say things that are totally ridiculous.
I will only quote the incident of one MKI crashing due to FOD or whatever and the whole MKI fleet was grounded by the Indians.

had the IAF been that ruthless as the MKI fanbase wants it to be then there might have been more accidents.


========================
@everyone
If you dont fancy turning pink then you must remain on topic otherwise dont post if you cant put a constructive argument against the points in the article.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## gambit

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> How will you exploit the RCS without a good enough radar?


That is actually a very good question, one that many take for granted that there is a consistency between the world's 'fighter-class' radar systems. Truth is that since there are wide variations between manufacturers in terms of the technology level they have at their disposal, it is inevitable that the products they produce will have variations in terms of RCS values as well. It may sound counter-intuitive but there is a direct relationship between quality of the seeking radar and an aircraft's RCS value, meaning the lower the quality the lower the RCS, which in this case does not mean the aircraft itself 'reflect' that RCS. Pun intended.

A radar cross section (RCS) value is calculated based upon these major (target) factors:

- Target shape.
- Target dimensions.
- Aspect angle to the seeking (mono-static) radar.

For the seeking radar, its burden on *PRODUCING* an RCS value rests upon these major factors:







The quality of *ALL* signal components must be equal *IF* these target resolutions are to be extracted from the echoes:

- Altitude
- Velocity
- Aspect angle
- Heading
- Range

- Direction

Case in point: The MIG-25's radar was so powerful (amplitude wise) that it could achieve 'burn-through' of most jamming signals, but the cost was altitude, velocity, aspect angle, and heading resolutions, leaving only direction (position) and possibly range for the pilot to know if anything is 'out there'. That is why I put 'Direction' apart from the other resolutions. Of all target resolutions, location of target is the easiest to produce by post WW II radars. Location of target is the first bit of target information that we seek before we formulate any course of action, whether it be by sight or sound.

So here is a dilemma for radar engineers worldwide: In trying to balance out the quality of signal components to achieve the above 6 target resolutions, the lower the technology level used to design the radar system, the lower any target RCS value. In other words, in trying to extract the 5 crucial data for the B-52, the lower the quality of the seeking signal, the lower the RCS value of the B-52. It can be difficult to understand why because we are used to thinking that a value of any kind is fixed but in radar detection an RCS value is a completely fictitious figure.

- No radar signal, no RCS value.

- No target, no RCS value.

But if the seeking radar signal is 'crappy' enough, then even if the target is physically real and in the area, it may as well does not exist for the seeking radar. After all, if it does not know how 'crappy' it is to begin with, how can it process any echoes to determine if there is anyone out there?

It is no longer appropriate to extract only target location and call it good as in the old MIG-25 days. So a new dilemma exist for the radar engineers of any country: In creating as high a quality signal as possible with the available technology at hand, distance may have to be sacrificed, in other words, if the B-52's RCS of 100 m/sq appears at 100km for country A, that same RCS of 100 m/sq will be available at 80km or less for country B because B is working with a lower technology base. In radar detection, the lower the distance figure, the less response time available, be it a civilian air traffic controller or an air defense crew protecting a valuable national asset.

The uncomfortable choice for country B is this: Either sacrifice 5 target resolutions and get only location. Or sacrifice distance to get all 6 resolutions, but with a lower distance resolution, of course. The decision to go either way depends on many factors, highest importance of them is the proximity of potential adversaries. If the threat can cross the borders and attack valuable national assets quickly, then may be general location is good enough. At least the defenders can face the enemy instead of being blindsided or flanked.

Next to the jet engine, a good radar system is the equal technical hurdle.

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## shree835

Good discussion is on&#8230;Please pass it to Pakistani Govt. and Air Force&#8230;It will help them to understand in good way.


----------



## Najam Khan

Before the arrival of BVRs, new variants of sidewinder,JHMCS, electronic pods and AEW&C systems Su-30MKI was a great threat, and still is...but the counter strategy has changed. Even today Su-30 is is equipped with greater engines, better ECM suite and weapons package...but thats not everything that will bring victory.

Have you people ever seen a fight between an average/small size fighter to a very large size adversary? The smaller size fighter makes quick moves from various directions, uses element of surprise to out maneuver his adversary. Because he knows his weaknesses and limitations...all he can do is to become proficient in other skills.

The case of PAF and its counter Su-30 policy is pretty much the same. In the past two decades, PAF has assessed its weak areas, and it has gained experience in other areas. Procurement of modern day weapons and ECM/Air combat ranges were necessary to over come its weak areas. 

Finally its participation in multinational exercises was to assess its performance with better/equivalent state-of-the-art combat aircraft such as F-22,Eurofighter,Rafale,Su-27SK,F-16 Block60, Mirage-2000-9, F-15E/C etc. 

The exercise Shaheen-I with Chinese Su-27SK aggressor unit solely focused on Su-30. Instead of F-16s, Mirage-VEF, F-7PG and JF-17 participated in it. Both BVR and WVR air combat scenarios were discussed. 

In a nut shell, any BVR+ AWACS equipped fighter can counter a best equipped heavy weight aircraft..but all it needs is a training, experience, knowledge about adversary's strength and weaknesses. For a pilot, it is difficult to fight with limited strength but that gives him out of the box thinking as well.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## gambit

Free Soul said:


> Know Thy Enemy&#8211; Dissecting SU-30 MKI
> 
> In most likely scenario that adversary will be PAF which will field its own front role fighters. Just like a boxer a fighter pilot always enters a battle with a view to win and *does his homework to know the strengths and weakness and to avoid the former and exploit the later* to achieve the kill.


Put it another way: In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

If you have less soldiers than your enemy but your soldiers have longer distance rifles and are better marksmen, they why would you want to go into combat within your opponent's reach? You would not. Your opponent have more troops, that is a 'rule' that you do not have. You have longer distance rifles and better marksmen, two 'rules' in your favor that your opponent does not have. So why would you want to get into a shooting match within his inferior rifles' distance, especially when you have less troops than he?

But the major problem for your advice, while in theory is true and admirable, in practice it is extremely difficult to apply. Assume that the Su does have a higher IR signature. The question then is how are you going to apply the 'exploitation of weaknesses' advice in training, in other words, how can you simulate that higher IR signature in as many variety of combat and flight situations as possible for your pilots to learn how to spot and exploit?

Infrared, just like radar, can vary according to target aspect angle, meaning how the target is facing (viewing) you -- the seeker. Not every aircraft is going to produce the same intensity and the more maneuverable ones can deny you that information really quick. What can you do to replicate those conditions to confuse your pilots in training so that they will not be confused in a war?

This is a real problem and it is real enough for US that we ended up with Red Flag and these guys...

4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> By the late 1970s, United States MiG operations were undergoing another change. In the late 1960s, the MiG-17 and MiG-21F were still frontline aircraft. A decade later, they had been superseded by later-model MiG-21s and new aircraft, such as the MiG-23. Fortunately, a new source of supply of Soviet aircraft became available, Egypt. In the mid-1970s, relations between Egypt and the Soviet Union had become strained, and Soviet advisers were ordered out. The Soviets had provided the Egyptian air force with MiGs since the mid-1950s. Now, with their traditional source out of the picture, the Egyptians began looking west. They turned to United States companies for parts to support their late-model MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Very soon, a deal was made. According to one account, two MiG-23 fighter bombers were given to the United States by Egyptian president Anwar Sadat. The planes were disassembled and shipped from Egypt to Edwards Air Force Base. They were then transferred initially to Groom Lake for reassembly and study.


This forum have a former F-15 pilot. Odds are good that he faced a MIG-21 in training. The US have nothing in inventory that could match the -21 in air combat maneuvers, as in how quickly can it turn, does it have any unique in-flight behaviors that could help our pilots in predicting what a -21 pilot must do, how can a -21 pilot exploit his small size, what altitude is the -21 best at, all these advantages are 'rules' that a -21 pilot can force his opponent to fight under. Then the -21 pilot win.

Can you train a soldier to be a sniper so the rest of your army can learn how to deal with snipers? Yes. But can you produce an Su so your non-Su pilots can learn how to deal with an Su should that day ever come? If not, then what do you have that can come close enough? For US, we had to get real MIGs. Then it was decades of learning and simulating and learning how to simulate that we now can comfortably part with our MIGs. But even so, every US military service have a 'Foreign Technology Exploitation' office whose work are top secret.

We do not want to go to war but unless we actually literally kill ourselves in live fire war games to have real combat experience, we should have training programs and regiments that should come as close to real as possible. In my days and that was during the Cold War, we have inspectors walking around putting red tags on people to indicate casualties and deny the unit manpower. Today we have laser tags to virtually 'kill' a soldier. At Red Flag, the only limitations are altitude and live missiles.

The point is this: War and combat are confusing enough so the goal should be to have as realistic of war and combat training as possible in peacetime so our forces can have as many combat instincts as possible to increase their odds of survival in a real war. That is why we have Red Flag and Fighter Weapons School. That is why we conduct revealing and embarrassing exercises like the Millennium Challenge that so many misunderstood to be the end of the US Navy in a Persian Gulf scenario. These gullibles are so wrong and they do not even know it. That is why Desert Storm was so shocking to most but not to training specialists worldwide who know of our training programs.

If:

In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. 

Then:

In peacetime training, you should have as many of your opponent's rules as possible, or as close to real as possible, so your forces can study and learn how to avoid getting trapped by a real enemy.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## GURU DUTT

Put it another way: *In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.*

*If you have less soldiers than your enemy but your soldiers have longer distance rifles and are better marksmen, they why would you want to go into combat within your opponent's reach? You would not. Your opponent have more troops, that is a 'rule' that you do not have*. You have longer distance rifles and better marksmen, two 'rules' in your favor that your opponent does not have. So why would you want to get into a shooting match within his inferior rifles' distance, especially when you have less troops than he?
*
In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. *

Then:

In peacetime training, you should have as many of your opponent's rules as possible, or as close to real as possible, so your forces can study and learn how to avoid getting trapped by a real enemy.

^^^thanks gambit sir....count have explained it better , Thanks Again.

kindly if possilble do explain your take on INDO - PAK scenario....Thanks Again .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Black Widow

@topic:History tell us that handful of soldiers stopped massive attack, be it Longewala, Be it Veer Durgadas against Mughal forces or Trojan against enemy. So no doubt if PAF can counter Su30MKI. 

Theoretically Su27 series has an advantage. The legendary F15 carry all flaws (Huge IR and RCS, Bulky) what Su27 has. But I bet in one to one or one to many F15 can rip any one's a$$, be it MiG29 or F16. Our (indian) commanders are not fool that instead of knowing all this (Huge IR and RCS) they bought Su27. If F15 can do it, Su27 can also do it. 

RCS: RCS has no role to play in fourth generation fighter planes, no matter how good is the 4th gen plane, it can be tracked much before it comes into target zone. 

BVR Missiles: For same generation and same class fighter BVR can not guarantee certain kill. In one of legendary encounter between American F16 and Russian MiG25, more than dozen A2A missile was fired and ironically none of them scored a kill.





CB4 talked bout 65 war: Son you need to learn about India be4 passing any statement. In 1965 India was all time low, Just 4 year ago We were attacked and hurt on eastern border. America were supplying you world class weapons (including World famous Patton Tank). Though India was numerically in advantage, Quality wise India was not that good. Any way leave it, its 50 year old story.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

Tracy said:


> Sir, what if we take super sukhoi in context... ?



We Have To Wait And See What Upgrades Su30Mki 'll Get....The Best Thing Is To Equip Them With Tikhomirov NIIP AESA Based On Irbis-E, 5th Gen Avionic's Developed For Pak FA Including A IRST Optical/IR Search And Tracking System, And Higher Thrust Engines. I Do Not Expect Any Major Structural Changes For Lowering It's RCS.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

cb4 said:


> Go look at the first page for SU-30's RCS....
> I have answered the reason for 2....
> Since JFT is made in Pakistan, we can make as much as we can. There is a reason why we want 350...



Sukhoi 30Mki Advantage Is It's High Power Radar And Brute Force. It's Huge RCS Can Also Be Use As A Advantage. Many People Will Not Understand That, And Officials Don't Disclose Such Information's. Air Battles , Tactics Are Very Complex In Nature.....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Black Widow

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> We Have To Wait And See What Upgrades Su30Mki 'll Get....The Best Thing Is To Equip Them With Tikhomirov NIIP AESA Based On Irbis-E, 5th Gen Avionic's Developed For Pak FA Including A IRST Optical/IR Search And Tracking System, And Higher Thrust Engines. I Do Not Expect Any Major Structural Changes For Lowering It's RCS.




Lets not talk about Super MKI or further upgrades, This thread is about PAF countering Su30MKI. 

IAF has 146 Su30MKI Vs PAF 50 FC1 + 60 F16 + 186 Mig21. 158 Mirage and other are ground attack bomber so discard them.. 
If PAF is aggressor (as mentioned by Paf internet warrior) 186 MiG21 is useless coz they are point defense fighter, they can't do Multi role attack. So in aggresive role PAF has just 110 fighter Vs Indian 146 Su30. 

If PAF has defensive role, PAF can use its MiG21 along with its 110 fighter planes. In that case PAF has numerical supremacy. ALong with it PAF has advantage of SAM.

Conclusion: In Offensive role PAF has no match for Su30, In defensive role they have Numerical advantage and Advantage of SAM.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## joekrish

There is no fighter in the world that can't be countered including a F22, hence trying to counter just one fighter makes no sence. There have been cases where a F16 has marked a F22, does this mean a F22 can be countered by a F16 eveytime they face each other.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## notorious_eagle

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Sukhoi 30Mki Advantage Is It's High Power Radar And Brute Force. *It's Huge RCS Can Also Be Use As A Advantage. Many People Will Not Understand That*, And Officials Don't Disclose Such Information's. Air Battles , Tactics Are Very Complex In Nature.....



Can you please enlighten me how can it be an advantage? 

I remember one of your fellow Indian brothers claiming that SU30MKI huge RCS was designed on purpose and it was specifically designed to intimidate the enemy. That was just all horse sh** as we all know and he was proved wrong but please enlighten me how is the huge RCS an advantage. Announcing your arrival and letting the enemy know where you are is no advantage in my books.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Black Widow said:


> Lets not talk about Super MKI or further upgrades, This thread is about PAF countering Su30MKI.
> 
> IAF has 146 Su30MKI Vs PAF 50 FC1 + 60 F16 + 186 Mig21. 158 Mirage and other are ground attack bomber so discard them..
> If PAF is aggressor (as mentioned by Paf internet warrior) 186 MiG21 is useless coz they are point defense fighter, they can't do Multi role attack. So in aggresive role PAF has just 110 fighter Vs Indian 146 Su30.
> 
> If PAF has defensive role, PAF can use its MiG21 along with its 110 fighter planes. In that case PAF has numerical supremacy. ALong with it PAF has advantage of SAM.
> 
> Conclusion: In Offensive role PAF has no match for Su30, In defensive role they have Numerical advantage and Advantage of SAM.


 
exactly mate and I will like to recall all of us about radar range part. you and us agreed in principle that with all ground and air assets factored in (AWACS, ground radars etc) the difference is negligible. And when we are both able to pick each other the moment one of us takes off then its pretty much a same deal.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-ranges-different-fighters-3.html#post1901105
the thread was meant to discuss one aspect of possible engagement of PAF with the IAF's flagship. I think there is much already on BVR so it was a welcome change to talk WVR thats why all planes (even existing 5th Gen) are carrying cannons and short range IR missiles. 

looking forward to Sandy's comments in this thread too.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

Black Widow said:


> Lets not talk about Super MKI or further upgrades, This thread is about PAF countering Su30MKI.
> 
> IAF has 146 Su30MKI Vs PAF 50 FC1 + 60 F16 + 186 Mig21. 158 Mirage and other are ground attack bomber so discard them..
> If PAF is aggressor (as mentioned by Paf internet warrior) 186 MiG21 is useless coz they are point defense fighter, they can't do Multi role attack. So in aggresive role PAF has just 110 fighter Vs Indian 146 Su30.
> 
> If PAF has defensive role, PAF can use its MiG21 along with its 110 fighter planes. In that case PAF has numerical supremacy. ALong with it PAF has advantage of SAM.
> 
> Conclusion: In Offensive role PAF has no match for Su30, In defensive role they have Numerical advantage and Advantage of SAM.




1st PAF Was Never A Defensive Force....Even Today When IAF Enjoys Numerical And Technological Superiority. 

Use Of Tactical Stand Off Weapons Will Be The Game Changer Here... As Most Of The PAF Bases Falls Under Brahmos Range. Sukhoi 30Mki Long Range With Refueling Capability 'll Help Here (Understand How). Pakistan Also Got Long Range Missiles (Ballistic) To Hit High Value Assets Deep Inside Indian Territory..... But Using Them Depends On What Political Objective Both Parties Want To Achieve...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Black Widow

notorious_eagle said:


> Can you please enlighten me how can it be an advantage?
> 
> I remember one of your fellow Indian brothers claiming that SU30MKI huge RCS was designed on purpose and it was specifically designed to intimidate the enemy. That was just all horse sh** as we all know and he was proved wrong but please enlighten me how is the huge RCS an advantage. Announcing your arrival and letting the enemy know where you are is no advantage in my books.




I don know what advantage my friend is talking about, But if yo are regular visitor on PDF you might be knowing that RCS is nothing to do for 4th gen fighter planes. Infact many Indian/Pakistani/American and Russian Senior members have discussed it and conclude that No matter how low the RCS of 4th gen fighter it can not evade the targeting range of enemy. 

Read my post above (Post#130), In second para I have mentioned that with similar flaws F15 can rip off F16/MiG29. If F15 can so does Su27 can. 

having said that I am not saying that PAF can not counter Su30MKI. It sure can. But as mentioned in very first post of this thread, I disagree with that. The thread starter has posted absurd logic.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Irfan Baloch

notorious_eagle said:


> Can you please enlighten me how can it be an advantage?
> 
> I remember one of your fellow Indian brothers claiming that SU30MKI huge RCS was designed on purpose and it was specifically designed to intimidate the enemy. That was just all horse sh** as we all know and he was proved wrong but please enlighten me how is the huge RCS an advantage. Announcing your arrival and letting the enemy know where you are is no advantage in my books.



indeed, thats a novel claim maybe he should join the PAF-FA program and advocate increasing the RCS of the plane to help the AOA as he puts it. lets see how the rest of Indians see his claim




Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Sukhoi 30Mki Advantage Is It's High Power Radar And Brute Force. *It's Huge RCS Can Also Be Use As A Advantage. Many People Will Not Understand That*, And Officials Don't Disclose Such Information's. Air Battles , Tactics Are Very Complex In Nature.....


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

Irfan Baloch said:


> indeed, thats a novel claim maybe *he should join the PAF-FA program and advocate increasing the RCS* of the plane to help the AOA as he puts it. lets see how the rest of Indians see his claim




You Are Free To Believe Whatever You Want, I Do Not Wish To Win Debate Here
Kind Regards

---------- Post added at 04:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------




indianspetsnaz said:


> BrahMos could take out most border air forces but its not like the Pakistanis are going to toss twigs back the PAF has the Raad 350km stand off cruise missile which has a longer range than the BrahMos not to mention as of right now raad is operational and can be used on the JF's, and Rose fighters that means IAF border air bases are screwed but Indian BMD system will also give defense against cruise missile and i'm sure AFB's will receive the interceptor missiles to intercept missiles like Babur and raad which leaves only the ballistic missiles to worry about but that will be on the call of the military as soon we will have nuclear powered and nuclear armed submarines operating in the Arabian sea awaiting 1st or 2nd strike orders.




Yes, They Can Target IAF Bases Near IR, But Tons Of IAF Bases Situated Deep Inside....Read The Post Above

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Black Widow

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> 1st PAF Was Never A Defensive Force....Even Today When IAF Enjoys Numerical And Technological Superiority.
> 
> Use Of Tactical Stand Off Weapons Will Be The Game Changer Here... As Most Of The PAF Bases Falls Under Brahmos Range. Sukhoi 30Mki Long Range With Refueling Capability 'll Help Here (Understand How). Pakistan Also Got Long Range Missiles (Ballistic) To Hit High Value Assets Deep Inside Indian Territory..... But Using Them Depends On What Political Objective Both Parties Want To Achieve...




In that case PAF has to be quick. The PAF have advantage of surprise attack. If PAF can destroy many Airbases and SAM PAF can become winner. If PAF can neutralize Indian Early warning System, then Su30 will be handicap for some time That time will be enough for PAF to take supermacy...

But If PAF missed it, They will be doomed. Su30 With subcomponents (Early warning and others) will be deadly. truly deadly. 

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------




indianspetsnaz said:


> think of it as this if the air force bases at Bhatinda, Amritsar, Jaisalmer, Pathankot, and Jaipur are all wiped out the entire western states of Punjab and Rajasthan are screwed the PAF would be able to strike at well at Indian cities in the western sector though this is a highly unlikely scenario as Indians SAM's could more than hold the PAF until reinforcements are sent


\



You must not forget this thread is about IAF Su30 and PAF. So please not bring Brahmos, ABM and other in discussion. Infact Indian SAMs too are out of consideration...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## joekrish

If you try and draw a comparison chart between PAF and SU30 MKI the odds lie on the SU30 (one on one ofcource).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## The SC

joekrish said:


> If you try and draw a comparison chart between PAF and SU30 MKI the odds lie on the SU30 (one on one ofcource).



SU30 MKI can you handle Chinese S 300 system?


----------



## DARKY

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> We Have To Wait And See What Upgrades Su30Mki 'll Get....The Best Thing Is To Equip Them With Tikhomirov NIIP AESA Based On Irbis-E, 5th Gen Avionic's Developed For Pak FA Including A IRST Optical/IR Search And Tracking System, And Higher Thrust Engines. I Do Not Expect Any Major Structural Changes For Lowering It's RCS.



Upgrade is with Zhuk-A from the other company.


----------



## DARKY

Black Widow said:


> Lets not talk about Super MKI or further upgrades, This thread is about PAF countering Su30MKI.
> 
> IAF has 146 Su30MKI Vs PAF 50 FC1 + 60 F16 + *186 Mig21*. 158 Mirage and other are ground attack bomber so discard them..
> If PAF is aggressor (as mentioned by Paf internet warrior) 186 MiG21 is useless coz they are point defense fighter, they can't do Multi role attack. So in aggresive role PAF has just 110 fighter Vs Indian 146 Su30.
> 
> If PAF has defensive role, PAF can use its MiG21 along with its 110 fighter planes. In that case PAF has numerical supremacy. ALong with it PAF has advantage of SAM.
> 
> Conclusion: In Offensive role PAF has no match for Su30, In defensive role they have Numerical advantage and Advantage of SAM.



How effective those 186 are against the BVR equipped plane with powerful ESA radars ?
And does IAF only consists of Su30mki or should we throw Mig29+M2K in dustbin.. since we have MKI ?
Care to explain about the numerical advantage... and PAF SAM network too...as you have been claiming.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Fieldmarshal

Wet Shirt Contest said:


>




Their are at-least five other "known operational" bases not on this map.


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

DARKY said:


> Upgrade is with Zhuk-A from the *other company*.



The Zhuk AE Is From Phazotron And Is On Offer For Fulcrum-D / Fulcrum-F Upgrades And According To *Some Reports* Also For Su 30 Upgrades.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## joekrish

The SC said:


> SU30 MKI can you handle Chinese S 300 system?




Do the PAF own the S300?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

Black Widow said:


> In that case PAF has to be quick. The *PAF have advantage of surprise attack.* If PAF can *destroy many Airbases and SAM PAF* can become winner. *If PAF can neutralize Indian Early warning System*, then Su30 will be handicap for some time That time will be enough for PAF to take supermacy...
> 
> But If PAF missed it, They will be doomed. Su30 With subcomponents (Early warning and others) will be deadly. truly deadly.



Have you see the IAF stations on map ?
And the LRTRs Installed there ?
Sorry but they tried the same thing in 71 and Its 2012 now.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Black Widow said:


> You must not forget this thread is about IAF Su30 and PAF. So please not bring Brahmos, ABM and other in discussion. Infact Indian SAMs too are out of consideration...




thanks for saying this.
maybe your point will get across.

Brahmos as far as I know is not anti aircraft missile so discussing it Vs. F-16 or JF-17 is pointless. 

talking cruise or ballistic missiles will take the threshold to another level and thats out of the scope of the discussion. the hypothetical synario is of a CAP of either side coming across a hostile or an Indian RIF in Pakistan. 

Pakistan's ground based air defence system has been kept out of the discussion for the purpose of simplicity and conciseness. they are not being ignored though.


----------



## DARKY

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> The Zhuk AE Is From Phazotron And Is On Offer For Fulcrum-D / Fulcrum-F Upgrades And According To *Some Reports* Also For Su 30 Upgrades.



Its the likely candidate and the defense Minister also spoke about it once.


----------



## DARKY

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks for saying this.
> maybe your point will get across.
> 
> Brahmos as far as I know is not anti aircraft missile so discussing it Vs. F-16 or JF-17 is pointless.
> 
> talking cruise or ballistic missiles will take the threshold to another level and thats out of the scope of the discussion. the hypothetical synario is of a CAP of either side coming across a hostile or an Indian RIF in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan's ground based air defence system has been kept out of the discussion for the purpose of simplicity and conciseness. they are not being ignored though.



But they are supposed to be launched on PAF air bases where they keep JF-17/F-16 and rest.. aren't they.
Many people even the original poster bring PAF SAM capability into equation.. an that's quiet obvious since they are add another dimension to aerial combat and keeping them aside is a suicide for any air assault ... But seems like those rules don't apply for IAF and IA SAMs for you and the original poster does it ?

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------




joekrish said:


> Do the PAF own the S300?



Yes but its classified they can't leak secrets on Internet you know... RAW/IB/CBI etc and CID is also watching.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## indushek

DARKY said:


> But they are supposed to be launched on PAF air bases where they keep JF-17/F-16 and rest.. aren't they.
> Many people even the original poster bring PAF SAM capability into equation.. an that's quiet obvious since they are add another dimension to aerial combat and keeping them aside is a suicide for any air assault ... But seems like those rules don't apply for IAF and IA SAMs for you and the original poster does it ?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but its classified they can't leak secrets on Internet you know... RAW/IB/CBI etc and CID is also watching.



What PAF has S300 ???


----------



## notorious_eagle

indianspetsnaz said:


> think of it as this if the air force bases at Bhatinda, Amritsar, Jaisalmer, Pathankot, and Jaipur are all wiped out the entire western states of Punjab and Rajasthan are screwed the PAF would be able to strike at well at Indian cities in the western sector though this is a highly unlikely scenario as Indians SAM's could more than hold the PAF until reinforcements are sent



You cannot knock out an airbase off its operational capability with a couple of strikes with cruise missiles or air planes. As soon as there is a strike, technicians start work on repairing the facilities to get them back online ASAP. You need constant bombardment which neither side has the capability to pursue. Major air bases in both the nations have hardened shelters which shields the aircraft from any bombardment. NATO conducted aerial raids and cruise missile strikes for almost 30 days against Iraq during Desert Storm, but Iraqi command and control was still intact. It's no child's play to take out a major air base; you need a lot of planning, fire power and most importantly luck on your side.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## DARKY

notorious_eagle said:


> You cannot knock out an airbase off its operational capability with a couple of strikes with cruise missiles or air planes. As soon as there is a strike, technicians start work on repairing the facilities to get them back online ASAP. You need constant bombardment which neither side has the capability to pursue. Major air bases in both the nations have hardened shelters which shields the aircraft from any bombardment. NATO conducted aerial raids and cruise missile strikes for almost 30 days against Iraq during Desert Storm, but Iraqi command and control was still intact. It's no child's play to take out a major air base; you need a lot of planning, fire power and most importantly luck on your side.



These days cruise Missiles are accurate enough to Hit the Ground based LRTRs out of equation and more Importantly buy time.
Remember that the Su30 would be carrying 2-3 Brahmos under their belly each and one each for older MKIs.
So Ammunition and Its fire power Is not the issue Here.. each day they'll see the runway repaired from the satellites they'll launch a salvo 2-3 Brahoms to ensure more hard work is done..

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------




indushek said:


> What PAF has S300 ???



According to that Canadian cum Pakistani poster yes.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## GURU DUTT

DARKY said:


> These days *cruise Missiles are accurate enough to Hit the Ground based LRTRs* out of equation and more Importantly buy time.
> Remember that the Su30 would be carrying 2-3 Brahmos under their belly each and one each for older MKIs.
> So Ammunition and Its fire power Is not the issue Here.. each day they'll see the runway repaired from the satellites they'll launch a salvo 2-3 Brahoms to ensure more hard work is done..



india even has harpy & harop drones for that very same reason but lets only try to talk about MKI's & dont bring in cruise missiles or bhramos , Thanks Again.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

GURU DUTT said:


> india even has harpy & harop drones for that very same reason but lets only try to talk about MKI's & dont bring in cruise missiles or bhramos , Thanks Again.



That was for reply to the point raised and Brahmos is one of the weaponry to be used on Su30MKI.







Those Drones can't damage a LRTRs only Anti-radiation Missiles/Cruise missiles can do it.
Any way I won't brahmos until its raised by any one here.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## RPK

Novator K-100

changes whole game of AWACS & Arial refueling

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## BLACKEAGLE

I think comparing SU-30 MKI with JF-17 would absolutely end in favor of Su-30. SU-30 is far more superior in speed, radar range and capability of detection, OLS, counter measures, jamming, long range AVR missiles represented by R-77, maneuverability, weapon load, fly range. Everyone knows that F-15 was the back bone of USAF as well as SU-27 and mig-31 are the back bone of RAF not mig-29 nor f-16. those light air-crafts were made because they are cheap, economic and a practical solution to cut off spending and were made also for export. It would be more realistic to compare between JF-17 and mig-29 SMT or mig-29 K.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## DARKY

RPK said:


> Novator K-100
> 
> changes whole game of AWACS & Arial refueling



Add these too...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Harry Potter

Black Widow said:


> Lets not talk about Super MKI or further upgrades, This thread is about PAF countering Su30MKI.
> 
> IAF has 146 Su30MKI


It's far more than 146 mate.
HAL has delivered around 105 MKI's.Russia delivered around 50(40+10)MK's later modernized to MKI standards.
So far Irkut has delivered 28 of the 40MKI's under 2007 deal.
This year we will induct 33 MKI's(21 HAL made and rest 12 from Irkut completing the 2007 deal).


----------



## DARKY

Leviza said:


> so you think all Pakistan Air force will keep on sleeping and you wont be getting anything in return??? day dreamers
> In any conflict Su30 would be taken down by our jf-17s even before they see the runways



How long can your JF-17 fly once they approach within 50km from Inter national border... what kind of EW suit it has to make it survive It self... remember once in India.. No AWACS cover or those SAM batteries.. you are on your own... against our SAM batteries AWACS cover and Interceptors and LR-SAMs... best of luck reaching the Runways.

Hell JF-17 can't even see the Mig21 If it vectors right on its tail inside Indian border... Trying to copy the Japs are you.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DARKY

Leviza said:


> so you think all Pakistan Air force will keep on sleeping and you wont be getting anything in return??? day dreamers
> In any conflict Su30 would be taken down by our jf-17s even before they see the runways



How long can your JF-17 fly once they approach within 50km from Inter national border... what kind of EW suit it has to make it survive It self... remember once in India.. No AWACS cover or those SAM batteries.. you are on your own... against our SAM batteries AWACS cover and Interceptors and LR-SAMs... best of luck reaching the Runways.

Hell JF-17 can't even see the Mig21 If it vectors right on its tail inside Indian border... Trying to copy the Japs are you.


----------



## soul hacker

joekrish said:


> Do the PAF own the S300?



BACHE ager PDF ke pas S300 hota to tu yahan hota??


----------



## ashokdeiva

Lets hope that there wont be a need for another war and Pakistan does not have to think about countering MKI's which are there to protect INDIAN air-space and not to tress pass into Pakistan Territory, unless in future Pakistan Air show invites IAF to show case Indian Fighters.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Contrarian

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I see that you are still in the numbers----100 is too much---a number between 15--20 su 30 shot down by paf on day 1, would run shudders in the ranks of Iaf. Once the cloak of invincibility is shattered---the psyche will be blown away.
> 
> The myth of the su 30 will either be shattered on day 1 of the combat or it will be the end game for paf. But once the myth gets shattered---the rest of the iaf will be no match.



Ever the optimist Mastan. 
For the 15-20 Su's shot down there will also be a corresponding 10-15 of the best fighters PAF has to field. You think that simply by shooting 15-20 MKI's IAF will be disheartened enough to get shot more and more? 

Those 10-15 F-16's that PAF loses will mean a MUCH greater loss of firepower for PAF than for the IAF. That means that the next day, PAF will shoot down lesser aircraft than it did the last day! 
Even the 2nd rung aircrafts of the IAF ie the Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 are being upgraded to Mirage 2005 and MiG 29K standandards! The 'rest' of the IAF has also trained for fighting, not just waiting for Su's to do everyone else's work.

You set too much store by assuming that the IAF thinks like the fanboys on internet generally and specifically wrt the 'invincibility' of the MKI. 
IAF has always been prepared to take losses(something i find most Pakistani's dont accept). Losing MKI's or any other plane is *acceptable* compared to the damage it causes in return. Like i said before, for every MKI lost, PAF losses a much bigger amount of firepower. Infact most likely the opposite of what you have said will happen.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## IndianTiger

Its not possible to counter everything. But what pakistan can do is minimizing damage by keeping friendly relations with neighbours.


----------



## BATMAN

SU-27 was purely designed in late 70's for Russian war doctrine vs US. 
Keep in mind, no other war theater may be a replica of Russia vs US air combat over Alaska.

History is like, In 70's Russian Vympel had very poor hit rate as compare to US AIM.
So the design philosophy of Russians, was to make an air truck, which can carry maximum BVR.
The application of SU revolves around 'shoot & scoot' game plan.

Principally, Russian idea was to overwhelm the incoming enemy a/c with flood of low hit rate, but long range missiles.
It was indeed a very clever strategy considering their own weakness and American strengths.

Point is, SU is good for what it is designed for but any further is no go area for SU.
e.g. Close combats in tight airspace, with presence of AWACS and AESA radars this truck stand no chance even against mig-21.

All Pakistan need is to forget about J-10, F-16 etc... and induct JFT & SD-10 in numbers and game is over for InAF.


----------



## anathema

DARKY said:


> These days cruise Missiles are accurate enough to Hit the Ground based LRTRs out of equation and more Importantly buy time.
> *Remember that the Su30 would be carrying 2-3 Brahmos under their belly each and one each for older MKIs.*
> .



Darky - Just one correction.

THat is incorrect - modified Su 30 will be capable of carrying only one Brahmos - and not 2-3 Brahmos. Older ones are not capable to carry even one ! This was later confirmed by Sivanthu pillai - even though there is a pic floating around which shows 2-3 Brahmos underneath a Su belly.

---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------




DARKY said:


> .. No AWACS cover or those SAM batteries.. you are on your own... against our SAM batteries AWACS cover and Interceptors and LR-SAMs... best of luck reaching the Runways.



Can you explain why there wouldnt be a AWECS cover for PAF once it crosses IB ? AFAIK , PAF erie or ZDK both has the capability to see inside indian IB ! Just the way Phalcon will be doing.


----------



## Rafi

Our air force has a plan for all the oppositions air assets, needless to say - no air craft has ever taken to the air - without gaps and weaknesses - it is our job to expose those loopholes in any conflict. < Nuff said >

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Patriot

Indians always talk big and think that SU-30 is invincible.Well if it was then we would have seen surgical strikes on Pakistan.Any aircraft ( barring 5th generation aircraft which have stealth technology) flying from Indian side to Pakistan with nefarious intentions will be taken care off.Indian Ego will badly beaten when first SU-30 will be shot down ( Which no doubt will happen on the very first day of war)..The only jet that we can truly call invincible is F22.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## bee3690

I accept that 20 m RCS of su30 is a disadvantage,The sukhoi has the advantage in terms of BARS and can lock on 3 to 5 RCS aircrafts like jf17 and j10 at excess of 130 km and launch R23 with 100+ range , before jf17 can archive radar lockon on the su30 , AWACS dosent help as su carries k100 which can be a cyanide for radars.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

anathema said:


> Darky - Just one correction.
> 
> THat is incorrect - modified Su 30 will be capable of carrying only one Brahmos - and not 2-3 Brahmos. Older ones are not capable to carry even one ! This was later confirmed by Sivanthu pillai - even though there is a pic floating around which shows 2-3 Brahmos underneath a Su belly.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *Can you explain why there wouldnt be a AWECS cover for PAF once it crosses IB ? AFAIK , PAF erie or ZDK both has the capability to see inside indian IB ! Just the way Phalcon will be doing.*



High Value Assets Don't Fly Near Hostile Territory, Even With 300Km+ Detection Range They Can't Help Much Because India Got Robust SAM Network And Most Of IAF Bases Are Situated Far From IR.

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------




Rafi said:


> Our air force has a plan for all the oppositions air assets, needless to say - no air craft has ever taken to the air - without gaps and weaknesses - it is *our job to expose those loopholes in any conflict. < Nuff said* >



Yes Same Here, Our Job Is To Exploit Weaknesses

---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 PM ----------




Patriot said:


> *Indians always talk big and think that SU-30 is invincible.*Well if it was then we would have seen surgical strikes on Pakistan.Any aircraft ( barring 5th generation aircraft which have stealth technology) flying from Indian side to Pakistan with nefarious intentions will be taken care off.Indian Ego will badly beaten when first SU-30 will be shot down ( Which no doubt will happen on the very first day of war)..The only jet that we can truly call invincible is F22.



Please, Nobody Said That Su30Mki Is Invincible....Your Post Are Not Helpful Nor Constructive. 
Regards

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Tshering22

There's one simple method of countering any weapon; forget all this needless and wronged anger and start afresh. You will automatically conquer your enemy without raising a finger.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BLACKEAGLE

BATMAN said:


> SU-27 was purely designed in late 70's for Russian war doctrine vs US.
> Keep in mind, no other war theater may be a replica of Russia vs US air combat over Alaska.
> 
> History is like, In 70's Russian Vympel had very poor hit rate as compare to US AIM.
> So the design philosophy of Russians, was to make an air truck, which can carry maximum BVR.
> The application of SU revolves around 'shoot & scoot' game plan.
> 
> Principally, Russian idea was to overwhelm the incoming enemy a/c with flood of low hit rate, but long range missiles.
> It was indeed a very clever strategy considering their own weakness and American strengths.
> 
> Point is, SU is good for what it is designed for but any further is no go area for SU.
> e.g. Close combats in tight airspace, with presence of AWACS and AESA radars this truck stand no chance even against mig-21.
> 
> All Pakistan need is to forget about J-10, F-16 etc... and induct JFT & SD-10 in numbers and game is over for InAF.


I am sorry but I am being logical here, Su-27, 30 and Russian fighters in general are known for their dogfight and maneuverability capabilities over western counterparts. Further more-in my opinion- Russian short and medium AA missiles especially R-73 M2 are better than western Sidewinder in terms of range and hit rate error. Although that Pakistani pilots proved their professional skills in international air exercises, but its obvious that Su-30 MKI is more capable and advanced than JF-17 or F-16 block 52. Lets just hope that Pakistan gets J-20.


----------



## God of Death

gambit said:


> Put it another way: In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.
> 
> If you have less soldiers than your enemy but your soldiers have longer distance rifles and are better marksmen, they why would you want to go into combat within your opponent's reach? You would not. Your opponent have more troops, that is a 'rule' that you do not have. You have longer distance rifles and better marksmen, two 'rules' in your favor that your opponent does not have. So why would you want to get into a shooting match within his inferior rifles' distance, especially when you have less troops than he?
> 
> But the major problem for your advice, while in theory is true and admirable, in practice it is extremely difficult to apply. Assume that the Su does have a higher IR signature. The question then is how are you going to apply the 'exploitation of weaknesses' advice in training, in other words, how can you simulate that higher IR signature in as many variety of combat and flight situations as possible for your pilots to learn how to spot and exploit?
> 
> Infrared, just like radar, can vary according to target aspect angle, meaning how the target is facing (viewing) you -- the seeker. Not every aircraft is going to produce the same intensity and the more maneuverable ones can deny you that information really quick. What can you do to replicate those conditions to confuse your pilots in training so that they will not be confused in a war?
> 
> This is a real problem and it is real enough for US that we ended up with Red Flag and these guys...
> 
> 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This forum have a former F-15 pilot. Odds are good that he faced a MIG-21 in training. The US have nothing in inventory that could match the -21 in air combat maneuvers, as in how quickly can it turn, does it have any unique in-flight behaviors that could help our pilots in predicting what a -21 pilot must do, how can a -21 pilot exploit his small size, what altitude is the -21 best at, all these advantages are 'rules' that a -21 pilot can force his opponent to fight under. Then the -21 pilot win.
> 
> *Can you train a soldier to be a sniper so the rest of your army can learn how to deal with snipers? Yes. But can you produce an Su so your non-Su pilots can learn how to deal with an Su should that day ever come? If not, then what do you have that can come close enough?*
> 
> For US, we had to get real MIGs. Then it was decades of learning and simulating and learning how to simulate that we now can comfortably part with our MIGs. But even so, every US military service have a 'Foreign Technology Exploitation' office whose work are top secret.
> 
> We do not want to go to war but unless we actually literally kill ourselves in live fire war games to have real combat experience, we should have training programs and regiments that should come as close to real as possible. In my days and that was during the Cold War, we have inspectors walking around putting red tags on people to indicate casualties and deny the unit manpower. Today we have laser tags to virtually 'kill' a soldier. At Red Flag, the only limitations are altitude and live missiles.
> 
> The point is this: War and combat are confusing enough so the goal should be to have as realistic of war and combat training as possible in peacetime so our forces can have as many combat instincts as possible to increase their odds of survival in a real war. That is why we have Red Flag and Fighter Weapons School. That is why we conduct revealing and embarrassing exercises like the Millennium Challenge that so many misunderstood to be the end of the US Navy in a Persian Gulf scenario. These gullibles are so wrong and they do not even know it. That is why Desert Storm was so shocking to most but not to training specialists worldwide who know of our training programs.
> 
> If:
> 
> In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours.
> 
> Then:
> 
> In peacetime training, you should have as many of your opponent's rules as possible, or as close to real as possible, so your forces can study and learn how to avoid getting trapped by a real enemy.



Good points.


----------



## T90TankGuy

i was under the impression this thread was closed .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## untitled

jbgt90 said:


> i was under the impression this thread was closed .



But reopened on request of the OP


----------



## MilSpec

Dear members,

I would like to present my views on this thread which seems to have gathered a lot of momentum. I will not be able to go into critical data on an open forum. I have been following aviation posts and have certain perspective that I would like to present to remove the a few misconceptions regarding the SU30 MKI.I have worked for HAL nasik division and have interacted with quite a few CTP&#8217;s to be in a decent position to give you a general perspective on the SU30MKI and its subsystems.

*SU 30 MKI Airframe:* MKI&#8217;s airframe is very similar to Russian base model irrespective of what others claim. It differs slightly on the load requirements that were presented to the Russians during the development. I left HAL 4 yrs ago, back then there were plans to use domestic material instead of Russian with same or better physical characteristics which is not necessarily an improvement performance wise but a cost saving measure. 

*Radar:* PESA BARS N011 Bars is the biggest ace up IAF&#8217;s sleeve, without divulging into the details detecting range, I can very confidently say that this radar has better resolution, noise cancellation and detection range than Captor and RBE2 hands down. Nothing in the subcontinent can come close to this radar today. I am not fully aware of Chinese subsystems, but this was the take of two Russian CTP&#8217;s 4 years ago. I don&#8217;t think PAF&#8217;s jf 17 radar is as good, but that&#8217;s my perspective and I could be wrong.
SU 30 MKI another advantage it can function as airborne command post and has excellent ability to function as such due to the two person crew and its radar.

*Avionics:* Additional subsystems like the Israeli HUD, OLS 30, laser/infrared hybrid IRST or also called optical laser tracker is very handy device. IAF and USAF goes gaga over the litening pod, it is as good as it gets.

*Upgrades:* have been discussed to death, so won&#8217;t go there again 

*Misconception on this forum about MKI*

Airshow aircraft

There is a general American sentiment of flanker that it is a airshow aircraft which has permeated especially in Pakistani members here. Although the thrust vectoring is something I wouldn&#8217;t credit in WVR, without its pucgahevs and tail slides, its still a very high tvr and is a very nimble and agile dogfighter. Its weapons loadout gives immense amount of firepower in WVR conflict with its inherent disadvantage being size.

Lets not forget a fact that SU 30 MKI despite its airshow maneuvers is an excellent high speed performer. Its avionics, radar and weapons load out makes it a deadly BVR platform. 

 MKI is a huge blip on the radar waiting to be shot down

To begin with I am not a big believer in BVR combat to the ranges that people think it is effective. BVR regime is most effective to half the radar tracking range sometimes even less. Jammers awacs , Self protection suites have equally evolved as have the BVR missiles. MKI is RCS is not much different from that of a F15SE and I don&#8217;t hear the American complain about it. Indian pilots that I have interacted with will never say anything against their plane , but from what I have heard from the Russian ctp&#8217;s SU27 and su30 are not straight up traditional A2A packages. The A2A combat philosophy is more of simultaneous staggered formations entering tactical area to obtain maximum results . Su 30 MkI is not a lone gun slinger which will go up and bring down an aircraft with every pull of the trigger as some of my fellow countrymen here believe. 

*Pakistan&#8217;s counter to SU30 MKI.* 

Theoretically you can bring down any aircraft with from fro any platform that PAF fields. Hitting a MKI is not miracle and is possible by almost every platform, But in my honest opinion the most effective platform that counters the threat of MKI&#8217;s firepower and range is PAF&#8217;s SAAB ERIEYE. Awacs platform has given the capability to PAF to detec MKI, SMT, UPG, M2k even a rustom that flies into Pakistani airspace and device a counter to thwart the treat. Hence I wouldn&#8217;t be rushing to order f22&#8217;s as of yet, PAF is very well prepared to faceoff IAF successfully at the present movement. SAAB erieye and the chiniese awacs platform will provide a stiff counter to whatever IAF throws at them.

Reactions: Like Like:
16


----------



## Zabaniyah

BLACKEAGLE said:


> I am sorry but I am being logical here, Su-27, 30 and Russian fighters in general are known for their dogfight and maneuverability capabilities over western counterparts. Further more-in my opinion- *Russian short and medium AA missiles especially R-73 M2 are better than western Sidewinder in terms of range and hit rate error.* Although that Pakistani pilots proved their professional skills in international air exercises, but its obvious that Su-30 MKI is more capable and advanced than JF-17 or F-16 block 52. Lets just hope that Pakistan gets J-20.



Those are short range IR-guided missiles  

The AIM-9 Sidewinder has over 200-300 kills till date. Enough said.


----------



## Free Soul

gambit said:


> But the major problem for your advice, while in theory is true and admirable, in practice it is extremely difficult to apply. Assume that the Su does have a higher IR signature. The question then is how are you going to apply the 'exploitation of weaknesses' advice in training, in other words, how can you simulate that higher IR signature in as many variety of combat and flight situations as possible for your pilots to learn how to spot and exploit?
> Infrared, just like radar, can vary according to target aspect angle, meaning how the target is facing (viewing) you -- the seeker. Not every aircraft is going to produce the same intensity and the more maneuverable ones can deny you that information really quick. What can you do to replicate those conditions to confuse your pilots in training so that they will not be confused in a war?
> This is a real problem and it is real enough for US that we ended up with Red Flag and these guys...



Very true. Also i think the reason back then US needed 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron because perhaps you did not have an ally or friendly formidable air force &#8211;having your adversary&#8217;s aircrafts- with whom you could carry out Air Combat exercises. So by one way or the other get hold of a adversary&#8217;s aircraft give it to 4477th which US did and test and practice and use simulators if the info can be translated into sims.
So did Israel in 1973. Got hold of a latest MiG-21 and practiced (defected Pilot from Iraq). if they had an ally with MiG 21 in their inventory they would have exercised with them too. 
I am also assuming that SU30 has a higher IR signature &#8211; but based on my own humble observations, I haven&#8217;t seen SU30 in flesh (rather in metal ) but can only guess that perhaps my theory holds based on Pictures that we have seen of the aircraft &#8211; Metal nacelles of aircraft. Engines overly exposed &#8211; and reading a bit on IR Signature. Now what i was getting to was that overly exposed Engine IR signature would make it a tad bit more susceptible to IR missiles, in my Initial Post I stressed on all aspect AIM sidewinder.
Usually the rear aspect of the aircraft is best for Heat seeker to score a kill, based on what I was pointing out as Over exposure the side Aspects and certainly top Aspect would give a better IRS and better chances for a AIM-9 sidewinder Kill.

I am presenting a case based on some observations, Like when people make observations of T-50 and its dimensions and point out in their opinion which part might not be cloaking the aircraft from radar. Obviously most of us interested in Avionics, Defence and such like do not have radars of our own to test our theories  but make observations and like to discuss about it &#8211; us being defence enthusiasts. If our theory holds &#8211;don&#8217;t know about others- but i would be very happy.

Now regarding getting a hold on an aircraft to study it and practice
PAF has had a play around with SU-30s the Chinese MKs 

















You are 100% correct we need to have Combat Exercise experience which we do, 
like PAF-PLAAF undertaking joint Air Exercise - Shaheen-1 and such like, we don&#8217;t have Red Flag but this is good too. Also thread on this forum.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...dertaking-joint-air-exercise-shaheen-1-a.html
So PAF gets to study the Su-30 MK, now me being a software engineer, I think that if PAF uses IR tracking system and from various aspects of the aircraft they can observe and model the IR Signature and translate into a modelling system that replicates it in Combat simulators. Just my humble opinion a well versed guy in this regard can comment. How much useful that would be God knows.
I will leave more rambling on this for laterz  


gambit said:


> This forum have a former F-15 pilot. Odds are good that he faced a MIG-21 in training. *The US have nothing in inventory that could match the -21 in air combat maneuvers*, as in how quickly can it turn, does it have any unique in-flight behaviors that could help our pilots in predicting what a -21 pilot must do, how can a -21 pilot exploit his small size, what altitude is the -21 best at, all these advantages are 'rules' that a -21 pilot can force his opponent to fight under. Then the -21 pilot win.


Though following might take me off topic a bit but i will indulge in the guilty pleasure just a lil bit.
Israel had a great run with F-15s against MiG-21s real combat. In their first ever encounter F-15 Vs MiG-21 , they scored on AIM-7, one Heat seeker missle and one classic cannon kill.. all in one encounter 3 kills long range, Medium heat seeker, and Gun

*MiG-21 is a great interceptor,
nice climb 
not easy to catch on Radar low RCS 
Fast and light,* 
But I thought it wasn&#8217;t that manoeuvrable

quoting from somewhere that at high speeds and low Altitude the MiG21&#8217;s control surfaces become sluggish/unresponsive. Besides the whole point though.

I would not argue with our Indian friends on their opinion that MiG-21&#8217;s small RCS works wonders for it but SU-30&#8217;s Big RCS is a blessing.

P.S. Your post was a interesting read cheers mate.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Devianz

ptldM3 said:


> A little, education lesson. *Any* Flanker can do the cobra with a full weapons load.


 
You mean like in this video? That's not just a cobra it's doing, this is awesome. Su-35 with full A-A load. 

Watch from 2:15
Farnborough Airshow 1994: part 1/2 - YouTube

Cross posting from Keypublishing forum



> The Su-30MK demonstrator - bort 603 - appeared at the 1994 Farnborough show with a full weapons load.
> 
> Stung by western criticism that it was doing its display empty, Mikhail Simonov ordered that it be fully tooled up.
> 
> It then flew its aerobatic routine fully loaded with a 15,430lb of weapons - albeit dummies but at representative weights.
> 
> There are photos of it taking off for its display with a full load - but I don't know about any vids.....
> 
> Just found this YouTube clip - Farnborough 1994 - it shows the Su-35 (T10M) flown by Yevgenniy Frolov doing an incredible aerobatic routine with a full complement of A2A miisiles...
> 
> Ken


----------



## MilSpec

Patriot said:


> Indians always talk big and think that SU-30 is invincible.Well if it was then we would have seen surgical strikes on Pakistan.Any aircraft ( barring 5th generation aircraft which have stealth technology) flying from Indian side to Pakistan with nefarious intentions will be taken care off.Indian Ego will badly beaten when first SU-30 will be shot down ( Which no doubt will happen on the very first day of war)..The only jet that we can truly call invincible is F22.



One who never fought will remain invincible... f22 has never seen combat.


----------



## Devianz

Free Soul said:


> Argued by countless pilots to be a fancy air show acrobat. Just for an example I will quote John Turner &#8211; Euro fighter Pilot &#8211; Farnborough air show 1996.


 
And in response the Russians put up a challenge which no one took up.
Russian Su-37 VS Any US Aircraft ! - YouTube


----------



## Super Falcon

i personally rate russian SU 37 very very jogj even high to pak fa and also mig 35 is next big thing for countries who want to make their AF next generation specially coutries of muslims becos US never sell us state of art jet like these in their inventory so better to get them against US jets


----------



## DARKY

anathema said:


> Darky - Just one correction.
> 
> THat is incorrect - modified Su 30 will be capable of carrying only one Brahmos - and not 2-3 Brahmos. Older ones are not capable to carry even one ! This was later confirmed by Sivanthu pillai - even though there is a pic floating around which shows 2-3 Brahmos underneath a Su belly.



Are you talking about this...









> Can you explain why there wouldnt be a AWECS cover for PAF once it crosses IB ? AFAIK , PAF erie or ZDK both has the capability to see inside indian IB ! Just the way Phalcon will be doing.



Can they afford to keep their AWACS in vicinity of Indian Border... They would Rather be placed in central areas more to the west.. the geography of Pakistan doesn't permit them the luxury against India... or I should rather say International border... I know most of the IAF Stations on our side is 200-300km inside from the borders... at best they can give the data about 50km Inside which again would be facing heavy ECM environment... while phalcons cover most of their stations even being 150km inside the Indian border.


----------



## gambit

sandy_3126 said:


> One who never fought will remain invincible... f22 has never seen combat.


This is where you are wrong on at least two levels.

First...While the F-22 has never seen combat, the training we give to our pilots are limited by two main items: altitude and live missiles. Not very many air forces in the world can afford, in terms of available airspace and money, to give that kind of near unlimited training scenarios on an annual basis to their pilots. The altitude limitation is obviously for safety reasons. For live missiles, once a missile is launched, a successful 'kill' rests upon the missile manufacturer, not the pilot. So if you trained as intensively and as realistically as possible up to the point where the burden of the 'kill' falls upon someone/something else, you have gone far more than most. Why do you think deployment to Red Flag or Top Gun are highly prized by foreign pilots?

Second...The F-22 is a component of the USAF, which is a component of the US military, and the US military is the most combat experienced in the world, from fighting insurgents embedded among civilians, to fighting 'set piece' battles as in WW II or Desert Storm, to individual air combats, to close air support of ground troops, to special operations that remains largely unpublicized, and so on...In all these components, their constituents will inevitably have a wide range of experiences at the personal level. Not every A-10 have seen combat, but the A-10 as a weapons platform is proven and its own institutional memory contribute to the greater institutional memory on how to use a dedicated CAS weapons platform. Not every M-1 have seen combat, but put a Desert Storm tank veteran crew into a brand new M-1 and see how deadly the brand new tank can be. If this crew retire, their memory will passed onto the next generation of US tankers in the form of training regiments and scenarios as in as realistically as possible.

Institutional memory is what enabled organizations to sustain themselves and make progress, be it IBM or McDonald's or Microsoft or Home Depot or a military. The more recent the addition to the whole, the more applicable and helpful that new addition will be towards sustainment and progress. For the US military, we got everybody beat in that area, from failures to successes to everywhere in between. We got plenty of analysts, civilians and military, to dissect and debate, especially at institutions like West Point, Annapolis, and the USAF Academy.

Take US on at your peril.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## MilSpec

gambit said:


> This is where you are wrong on at least two levels.
> 
> First...While the F-22 has never seen combat, the training we give to our pilots are limited by two main items: altitude and live missiles. Not very many air forces in the world can afford, in terms of available airspace and money, to give that kind of near unlimited training scenarios on an annual basis to their pilots. The altitude limitation is obviously for safety reasons. For live missiles, once a missile is launched, a successful 'kill' rests upon the missile manufacturer, not the pilot. So if you trained as intensively and as realistically as possible up to the point where the burden of the 'kill' falls upon someone/something else, you have gone far more than most. Why do you think deployment to Red Flag or Top Gun are highly prized by foreign pilots?
> 
> Second...The F-22 is a component of the USAF, which is a component of the US military, and the US military is the most combat experienced in the world, from fighting insurgents embedded among civilians, to fighting 'set piece' battles as in WW II or Desert Storm, to individual air combats, to close air support of ground troops, to special operations that remains largely unpublicized, and so on...In all these components, their constituents will inevitably have a wide range of experiences at the personal level. Not every A-10 have seen combat, but the A-10 as a weapons platform is proven and its own institutional memory contribute to the greater institutional memory on how to use a dedicated CAS weapons platform. Not every M-1 have seen combat, but put a Desert Storm tank veteran crew into a brand new M-1 and see how deadly the brand new tank can be. If this crew retire, their memory will passed onto the next generation of US tankers in the form of training regiments and scenarios as in as realistically as possible.
> 
> Institutional memory is what enabled organizations to sustain themselves and make progress, be it IBM or McDonald's or Microsoft or Home Depot or a military. The more recent the addition to the whole, the more applicable and helpful that new addition will be towards sustainment and progress. For the US military, we got everybody beat in that area, from failures to successes to everywhere in between. We got plenty of analysts, civilians and military, to dissect and debate, especially at institutions like West Point, Annapolis, and the USAF Academy.
> 
> Take US on at your peril.



I have never questioned the combat performance of f22 as stated before, but if f22 is intended to replace f15's, it should have taken on the mantle of f15 missions to prove what is the operational takedown on the aircraft. there has been immense speculation on serviceability of f22 and it seems USAF doesn't wants to field the f22 for higher operating costs. If it is supposed to be fighter that replaces f15's , why are f15 still carrying out frontline missions and f22's sitting at home?


----------



## gambit

Free Soul said:


> Very true. Also i think the reason back then US needed 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron because perhaps you did not have an ally or friendly formidable air force having your adversarys aircrafts- with whom you could carry out Air Combat exercises. So by one way or the other get hold of a adversarys aircraft give it to 4477th which US did and test and practice and use simulators if the info can be translated into sims.
> So did Israel in 1973. Got hold of a latest MiG-21 and practiced (defected Pilot from Iraq). if they had an ally with MiG 21 in their inventory they would have exercised with them too.
> 
> Israel had a great run with F-15s against MiG-21s real combat. In their first ever encounter F-15 Vs MiG-21 , they scored on AIM-7, one Heat seeker missle and one classic cannon kill.. all in one encounter 3 kills long range, Medium heat seeker, and Gun


It is good to have information from allies about their experiences with X, Y, or Z. It is better if they have X, Y, and Z in their possession and they share. But it is *ALWAYS* best to have X, Y, and Z in your own possession to study and experience at your own pace. The further an experience is apart from you in terms of degrees, the more diluted that experience becomes, facts may be deliberately omitted or forgotten, interpretations can be colored by personal biases, environmental factors are not as varied, the list is long.



Free Soul said:


> I *am also assuming that SU30 has a higher IR signature*  but based on my own humble observations, I havent seen SU30 in flesh (rather in metal ) but can only guess that perhaps my theory holds based on Pictures that we have seen of the aircraft  *Metal nacelles of aircraft. Engines overly exposed*  and reading a bit on IR Signature. Now what i was getting to was that overly exposed Engine IR signature would make it a tad bit more susceptible to IR missiles, in my Initial Post I stressed on all aspect AIM sidewinder.
> Usually the rear aspect of the aircraft is best for Heat seeker to score a kill, based on what I was pointing out as Over exposure the side Aspects and certainly top Aspect would give a better IRS and better chances for a AIM-9 sidewinder Kill.


The assumption is not baseless. The engines straddle the fence between being completely enclosed by the fuselage and being 'podded'. A 'nacelle' is a covering, as in how a 'nacelle' covers the podded engine on a 747.






We can see the demarcation of where the engine, as a distinct component, being exposed from the main body. Whether that exposure equals to an increase in infrared (IR) exposure is understandably speculative but also is not baseless.

In IR detection, even a tray of 'fresh-from-the-freezer' ice cubes emit IR radiation. But IR detection is not the same as infrared *IMAGING*, which is considerably more data collection intensive and processing. Infrared detection merely distinguishes whatever level of IR radiation from a contrast, such as a background. So against a missile that is equipped with IR detection, confinement of direction of IR radiation by an engine is important. A jet engine have an exhaust direction so IR radiation in that direction is inevitable. The engine itself radiate IR emissions through all of its components, from plumbing to panels to 'turkey feathers' or nozzles.

Do we want the enemy IR detector to see this...

Infrared Training Center Message Board

...Or do we want to limit his view to this...

Infrared Signature Modelling and Measurement - BAE Systems

The second view is much more preferable.

In the first view, if we take the IR detector's perspective we would be looking at two items:

- Concentrated heat as in exhaust streams.

- Diluted heat as radiated by engine components.

We do not know if the Su's IR radiation pattern is like the first view but because of the engines' partial exposure from the fuselage or non-covered condition, it is reasonable to assume that the engines' IR radiation pattern will resemble the first view. Keep in mind that the Su's vertical and horizontal stabs may limit viewing angles by an IR detector.

However...Against an IR imaging system, it is a whole different story. An IR imaging system take discrete IR radiation sources, such as that of an engine, leading edges of structures that are heated by aerodynamic contacts, and even the cockpit area, to form a composite of what is programmed to be an 'aircraft'.

In radar detection, we have this EM graph of electrical spikes of the many EM scattering structures...






No difference in principle via IR radiation sources imaging. Only different in medium, or rather freq spectrum, and technical components.

The American AIM-9X went beyond mere IR detection but actually form a composite image of the target via discrete IR radiators produced by the target. The composition capability approaches that of 'thermography', which is actually the first view of a jet engine presented above. That is why the AIM-9X can attack 'all aspect', meaning it does not need high intensity IR radiators like the engines to call 'target', but it can take IR radiations from heated leading edges, heated cockpits, and perhaps even heat from the pilot's face, to form a pattern that based upon programming to call 'target'.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## gambit

sandy_3126 said:


> I have never questioned the combat performance of f22 as stated before, but if f22 is intended to replace f15's, it should have taken on the mantle of f15 missions to prove what is the operational takedown on the aircraft. there has been immense speculation on serviceability of f22 and it seems USAF doesn't wants to field the f22 for higher operating costs. If it is supposed to be fighter that replaces f15's , why are f15 still carrying out frontline missions and f22's sitting at home?


The F-22's quantity limit its wanted status as a replacement for the F-15. For now, it will serve as deterrent for any adversary seeking to dominate any airspace. If no such adversary exist, no need for its deployment there.

Let me put it to this way as I learned from an old radar mentor a looonng time ago:

Air Dominance - The ability of an air force to compel other air forces (friend or foe) to rearray themselves, usually to inferior postures, and without the need for combat.

Air Superiority - The ability of an air force to achieve complete control of contested airspace and if there are any losses, such losses does not deter repeated assertion of control.

Air Supremacy - He flies, he dies.

Remember - In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rule, but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

Low radar observability is the new air combat 'rule' that so far the US have forced everyone to fight under. With only the F-15/F-16 combination, we can achieve 'Air Supremacy' in most contested airspaces of the world. The F-22 is the reserve threat of the same for future adversaries.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Alchemy

Patriot said:


> Indians always talk big and think that SU-30 is invincible.Well if it was then we would have seen surgical strikes on Pakistan.Any aircraft ( barring 5th generation aircraft which have stealth technology) flying from Indian side to Pakistan with nefarious intentions will be taken care off.Indian Ego will badly beaten when first SU-30 will be shot down ( Which no doubt will happen on the very first day of war)..The only jet that we can truly call invincible is F22.



Topic is how will PAF counter SU-30MKI and you are bringing Emotions and egos and what not .... Try to explain how you will bring down Su-30 rather than discussing which aircraft is invincible.


----------



## Nishan_101

Although it sounds quite easy but its true that if would have started working on R&D radars and optronics as well as on other electrical and electronic, and tried to build a 200++ Km range A-A Missile that might be two stage rocket then it will be much better for us to use against AWE&Cs as well for shooting down long distance targets as well. So I am still with it that we should utilize our own minds with minor Chinese and Turkish help to start R&D at home and I think the biggest lost of Pakistan is that we have been left behind in Education as well as in R&D. The GoP should take serious measures in this regards and try to make the education of qualitystandard in accordance to ISLAMIC Teachings and try to spend more and more on R&Ds.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

malaymishra123 said:


> Ever the optimist Mastan.
> For the 15-20 Su's shot down there will also be a corresponding 10-15 of the best fighters PAF has to field. You think that simply by shooting 15-20 MKI's IAF will be disheartened enough to get shot more and more?
> 
> Those 10-15 F-16's that PAF loses will mean a MUCH greater loss of firepower for PAF than for the IAF. That means that the next day, PAF will shoot down lesser aircraft than it did the last day!
> Even the 2nd rung aircrafts of the IAF ie the Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 are being upgraded to Mirage 2005 and MiG 29K standandards! The 'rest' of the IAF has also trained for fighting, not just waiting for Su's to do everyone else's work.
> 
> You set too much store by assuming that the IAF thinks like the fanboys on internet generally and specifically wrt the 'invincibility' of the MKI.
> IAF has always been prepared to take losses(something i find most Pakistani's dont accept). Losing MKI's or any other plane is *acceptable* compared to the damage it causes in return. Like i said before, for every MKI lost, PAF losses a much bigger amount of firepower. Infact most likely the opposite of what you have said will happen.



Hi,

That is all well and good---but once the rate of losses reaches those numbers---the su 30 loses it myth of being untouchable----. For that reason, I beliegve that iaf won't use this aircraft in a conflict as one of the posters suggested---. Rather safe than sorry.

No reason to prove the effectiveness of aim 120 against the su 30 when the same can be observed against the m2k and mig29's etc etc etc.


----------



## ptldM3

BATMAN said:


> SU-27 was purely designed in late 70's for Russian war doctrine vs US.
> Keep in mind, no other war theater may be a replica of Russia vs US air combat over Alaska.
> 
> History is like, In 70's Russian Vympel had very poor hit rate as compare to US AIM.
> So the design philosophy of Russians, was to make an air truck, which can carry maximum BVR.
> The application of SU revolves around 'shoot & scoot' game plan.




Some Mig 21&#8217;s including those over Vietnam had no guns. If they were as poor as you claim I doubt they would forgo a gun. Moreover, poor hit probability does not always lead to a poor design. A major factor for poor hit probability is deciding when to fire, it&#8217;s well known that in a number of conflicts in Africa pilots released their missiles too early to reach their targets.






BATMAN said:


> Point is, SU is good for what it is designed for but any further is no go area for SU.
> e.g. Close combats in tight airspace, with presence of AWACS and AESA radars this truck stand no chance even against mig-21.




This is a pretty irrational and bias comment, than again the entire thread is about bashing the SU-30 and most arguments have been based on mere speculation and clouded in irrational logic. The SU-30 is very similar to the F-15 in many ways (including the &#8216;exposed metal engines&#8216. Are you suggesting that the F-15&#8217;s record is a fluke or that it is now outclassed by smaller, cheaper aircraft?

Larger aircraft outclass smaller aircraft by far. Small aircraft are very limited in avionics, range, and payload. By this I mean small aircraft are limited in the size and the amount of avionics they can carry, smaller radars will generally be outclassed by larger radars of comparable technologies. Smaller aircraft also have inherited weaknesses in ECM&#8217;s, although they have them, obviously, they are generally less capable. As an example SEAD&#8217;s aircraft such as the Growler and Fullback carry very large ECM pods, this would not be very practical on smaller aircraft and assuming such pods were placed on smaller aircraft their already limited range and payload would suffer even more. Of course there are some very technologically advanced smaller class aircraft that have defensive suites that are probably beter than the one found in the MKI, but larger aircraft can always go with bigger ECM pods, jammers, ect.

Now since people love silly comparisons, the SU-30 outright dominates aircraft such as the JF-17. For one the SU-30 has a combat radius of 1,500km compared to the JF-17&#8217;s mere 1,300km, all with more fuel and more weapons. To add injury to insult the SU-30 can refuel in mid air while the JF-17 can not. Comparing payload the SU-30 can carry nearly 10,000lbs more that the JF-17, again this is substantial. 

Like it or not but the SU-30 is vastly more efficient than smaller aircraft such as the JF-17. To put it in perspective it would take about 3 JF-17 to equal the performance of one SU-30 on a strike mission; and again smaller aircraft such as the JF-17 don&#8217;t come anywhere near the SU-30 in terms of range so their theater of operation would be limited. Due to the efficiency of the SU-30 it would take less sorties to complete a mission, less sorties equals less potential losses.

I&#8217;m not trying to upset anyone or degrade the JF-17 but my arguments are all counter rebuttals based on public knowledge available for all.

Reactions: Like Like:
16


----------



## Nishan_101

I am sure that Erieye as well as ZKD are capable of detecting and engaging the Su-30MKI and don't listen to false news about the tech known to India.


----------



## Vritra

BATMAN said:


> History is like, In 70's Russian Vympel had very poor hit rate as compare to US AIM.





BATMAN said:


> Principally, Russian idea was to overwhelm the incoming enemy a/c with flood of low hit rate, but long range missiles.
> It was indeed a very clever strategy considering their own weakness and American strengths.



In the '70s, perhaps, what you've written is true, when the R-23 and R-60 were the most common missiles and the MiG-21/23 were still the mainstay of the Russian Air Force. Dunno if you've noticed, but things _have _changed _slightly _since then. 



BATMAN said:


> So the design philosophy of Russians, was to make an air truck, which can carry maximum BVR.
> The application of SU revolves around 'shoot & scoot' game plan.



No it doesn't. 

The Su-27 was a direct counter to the F-15. It was meant to fire off missiles from long range in salvos of 2, each with a different seeker (usually R-77 AR seeker and an R-27 longburn with LOAL IR sensor) so as to confuse and countermine the target aircraft's self defence capabilities. With the increasing effectiveness of seeker technology (all tested at range against the MiG-23MLD, which was modified to simulate the perceived performance of the American teen series, namely the F-16) and missile dynamics, the Flanker was fitted with enough hardpoints to carry 4-5 BVR salvos (the remaining hardpoints for short range missiles) to increase kill effectiveness. This gives it a significant advantage over other existing aircraft, because with its large number of hardpoints, it can carry nearly twice the firepower at BVR/VWR than smaller aircraft. Which is why the development of the multi-rail system for the SD-10 has been so important to the Chinese. 

Shooting and scooting is the objective of the Su-34, or the J-11 Flanker derivatives. Flankers like the Flanker-H have multiple mission capabilities. Depending on the threat scenario, either they engage the enemy, or they RTB to refuel/rearm. If they're outnumbered and still being locked on at long ranges for BVR fire, they'll damn well RTB. That's being smart, because everyone in war accepts that bravado gets you killed. If you think you can predict every variable of every dogfight likely to occur over sub-continental skies, be my guest.

---------- Post added at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 AM ----------




DARKY said:


> How can an AWACS engage a Combat aircraft ?



Detection, EW (jamming of sensors, etc.), directing support fighters against said enemy, and so on.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Black Widow

IND_PAK said:


> But the question still remains..
> 
> Why dont USAF test F22 in real war scenarios just to validate all claims it made about superiority of F22. You are correct in saying that F22 is meant to deal with more complex and advance threats but shouldn't F22 prove themselves against lower magnitude threats first rather then waiting for future high tech conflicts and getting straight into them without having a single kill.




Coz F22 is Game changer. if needed USA will definitely Pitch it. Till now USAF is fighting with weak airforces like Afghan (if any), Iran, Libya or Pakistan (repetitive air violation). If USAF need to counter china, Russia or India (touch wood), They will use F22 along with F15s and 16s..


----------



## PoKeMon

Black Widow said:


> Coz F22 is Game changer. if needed USA will definitely Pitch it. Till now USAF is fighting with weak airforces like Afghan (if any), Iran, Libya or Pakistan (repetitive air violation). If USAF need to counter china, Russia or India (touch wood), They will use F22 along with F15s and 16s..



I know its a game changer but can you risk a fighter of such mattle to get into high end fights directly without proving its credentials in low tech warfare.


----------



## Black Widow

Zabaniya said:


> ^Don't forget Growlers
> 
> Man, how I envy those



Offtopic: India too is planning similar role fighter. I think LCA TD3 or LSP3 is chosen to test this role. Hope we can see our own Prowler/Growler in coming years.

---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 PM ----------




IND_PAK said:


> I know its a game changer but can you risk a fighter of such mattle to get into high end fights directly without proving its credentials in low tech warfare.



Its there plane there strategy , may be they are not allowing world to see/estimate F22 strengths.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

ptldM3 said:


> Im not trying to upset anyone or degrade the JF-17 but my arguments are all counter rebuttals based on public knowledge available for all.



your posts are a most welcome. the very reason for this thread is that SU30 is universally agreed to be a formidable plane. there are no two arguments over it. this is why any adversary that is expecting to face it must be mulling over the ways to counter it.

re PAF its only India due to past confrontations hence the thread.

as far as JF-17 is concerned you dont need to clarify yourself although your comments are welcome but let us return the favour, JF-17 borrows a lot from Russian aeronautical and aviation knowledge base. our main engine is Russian with with we are more than happy but we very well know where JF-17 stands and in the presence of F-16 Block 52, I think the thread was started with PAF's front-line fighter in mind. or as you suggested pit x number of JF-17s to counter it.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Kompromat

Even though all of this sounds pretty fancy , calculating the RCS , IR signature , engine signature and radar detection. But what we so far have failed to realize is that the time has come for so called "Stand off weapons". We can calculate and shoot down an MKI , but what if never enters our airspace but could fire a SOM and do the damage it is supposed to do.

Therefore Pakistan must invest in close in weapon systems , anti cruise missile tech [Spada-2k was a great step] more as well as invest in high end long range SAM systems to keep these MKIs away from the border , contain their capabilities and be able to detect and shoot down if it enters Pakistani air space.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Thorough Pro

Strike first, strike fast, strike deep and strike hard..........think out of the box and there are many conventional and effective ways to counter Sukhoi or Rafael or any other fighter for that matter, sadly I can't share them here


----------



## Kompromat

Thorough Pro said:


> Strike first, strike fast, strike deep and strike hard..........think out of the box and there are many conventional and effective ways to counter Sukhoi or Rafael or any other fighter for that matter, sadly I can't share them here



Guess what Indians would reply with , after you blow up their entire air fleet on ground [too exaggerated to begin with] ?


----------



## manojb

Aeronaut said:


> Guess what Indians would reply with , after you blow up their entire air fleet on ground [too exaggerated to begin with] ?


 
Seriously?? You've been promoted to Moderator!


----------



## Kompromat

manojb said:


> Seriously?? You've been promoted to Moderator!



Use your brain before you use your keyboard.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Aeronaut said:


> Guess what Indians would reply with , after you blow up their entire air fleet on ground [too exaggerated to begin with] ?



Assuming that such an unlikely scenario happens, India does have a limited second strike capability which is arguably more robust than Pakistan's second strike capability.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kompromat

VCheng said:


> Assuming that such an unlikely scenario happens, India does have a limited second strike capability which is arguably more robust than Pakistan's second strike capability.



Exactly , which would well and truly lead to MAD.


----------



## VCheng

Aeronaut said:


> Exactly , which would well and truly lead to MAD.



All the more reason for sane people on both sides to work towards ensuring that the MADness never happens.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Anything that flies can be brought down.....the only thing is SU 30 is a bit tough when compared to the MiG 21


----------



## Last Hope

Skull and Bones said:


> A war has many dimensions, before MKI's intrude into enemy territory. All long range SAM and Radar installations will be taken out by missiles or by dedicated aircrafts in SEAD mission.
> 
> Why do people miss this beauty, ask any Hellenic Air Force officials, Mirage 2000-9 is more than a match for F-16 Blk-52s. In every combat exercise, Mirages managed to Jam F-16 Blk-52 radars effectively, everytime. I wasn't aware of this fact, until recently an ex-Hellenic air force official joined our forum (IDF)



Well, it was not able to jam the JF-17 radars was it? 
F-16 Block 52+ is not the only fighter in PAF inventory. 


Incase of a war breakout, PAF still has an advantage over IAF. IAF needs to have Squadrons at North and North-East, whereas PAF has smaller area hence more flexible. The JF-17 is a new aircraft and the first dogfight would leave the enemy wandering on how to encounter. The RCS of JF-17 which is lower than the Su-30 is an advantage so is the lower IR signature. The Su-30s would be the first to appear in the JF-17 radar and a BVR has much better chances with higher RCS. Plus, the JF-17 will be less prone to radar jamming than Block 52+.

Another way to kill a Su-30 is SAM hit, which has been made obvious in the below post.


Aeronaut said:


> Even though all of this sounds pretty fancy , calculating the RCS , IR signature , engine signature and radar detection. But what we so far have failed to realize is that the time has come for so called "Stand off weapons". We can calculate and shoot down an MKI , but what if never enters our airspace but could fire a SOM and do the damage it is supposed to do.
> 
> Therefore Pakistan must invest in close in weapon systems , anti cruise missile tech [Spada-2k was a great step] more as well as invest in high end long range SAM systems to keep these MKIs away from the border , contain their capabilities and be able to detect and shoot down if it enters Pakistani air space.



And anyways, a war breakout will be a dangerous one with nuclear weapons used. Babur and Ra'ad cruise missiles, which are stealth, would be used against front enemy Air bases and infantry bases. (Conventional warhead can be used too).


----------



## MastanKhan

Aeronaut said:


> Even though all of this sounds pretty fancy , calculating the RCS , IR signature , engine signature and radar detection. But what we so far have failed to realize is that the time has come for so called "Stand off weapons". We can calculate and shoot down an MKI , but what if never enters our airspace but could fire a SOM and do the damage it is supposed to do.
> 
> Therefore Pakistan must invest in close in weapon systems , anti cruise missile tech [Spada-2k was a great step] more as well as invest in high end long range SAM systems to keep these MKIs away from the border , contain their capabilities and be able to detect and shoot down if it enters Pakistani air space.



Hi,

You are on the right track---but fixed assets---even though they are extremely potent are also extremely vulnerable to enemy strike capabilities---. So---you ought to have an x number of air superiority fighter aircraft with potent BVR's to compliment your long range surface to air missiles.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are on the right track---but fixed assets---even though they are extremely potent are also extremely vulnerable to enemy strike capabilities---. So---you ought to have an x number of air superiority fighter aircraft with potent BVR's to compliment your long range surface to air missiles.



welcome back sir........ i mess this vs thread ... i don't this kinda thread is alive until now.... hmmm


----------



## TANMAY619

i dont think paf has any deep strike ac that can strike as deep as the mkis.


----------



## MastanKhan

Last Hope said:


> Well, it was not able to jam the JF-17 radars was it?
> F-16 Block 52+ is not the only fighter in PAF inventory.
> 
> 
> Incase of a war breakout, PAF still has an advantage over IAF. IAF needs to have Squadrons at North and North-East, whereas PAF has smaller area hence more flexible. The JF-17 is a new aircraft and the first dogfight would leave the enemy wandering on how to encounter. The RCS of JF-17 which is lower than the Su-30 is an advantage so is the lower IR signature. The Su-30s would be the first to appear in the JF-17 radar and a BVR has much better chances with higher RCS. Plus, the JF-17 will be less prone to radar jamming than Block 52+.
> 
> Another way to kill a Su-30 is SAM hit, which has been made obvious in the below post.
> 
> 
> And anyways, a war breakout will be a dangerous one with nuclear weapons used. Babur and Ra'ad cruise missiles, which are stealth, would be used against front enemy Air bases and infantry bases. (Conventional warhead can be used too).



Sir,

You are in error----su 30 won't appear on j17's radar---as a matter of fact the jf 17 will appear on th su30's radar before it happens otherwise---.

Su 30 has a massive radar---I think that you missed out on the posts by our specialist gambit----.

The above scenario is in case long distance interception like over the ocean---on land---all the bases are close by---all air craft will be pretty much visible to each other.

You also have jumped ahead---the jf17 would have to pass thru the barrage of bvr's at first to come within wvr range.

You are correct on the second part---most of these bases are with surface to surface or air to ground weapons.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## TANMAY619

no paf ac has radar or ew system as good as mki. dont tell about the awacs as we also have phalcon awacs which are considered the best. even j 10b would be no match and dont bring in jf 17 as it has sub standard avionics and any rational person knows it. iaf's mkis have 170km range missiles and can get out any ac of paf without being detected. awacs of paf have a detection range of 350km(all the good ones have 400km range) and would be a sitting duck against anti awacs missiles. and remember super 30 is coming.
i think in strike and ground attack mkis are better than whole paf combined

absolutely correct friend. the best defences would be the hq 19


----------



## AUz

TANMAY619 said:


> no paf ac has radar or ew system as good as mki. dont tell about the awacs as we also have phalcon awacs which are considered the best. even j 10b would be no match and dont bring in jf 17 as it has sub standard avionics and any rational person knows it. *iaf's mkis have 170km range missiles and can get out any ac of paf without being detected.* awacs of paf have a detection range of 350km(all the good ones have 400km range) and *would be a sitting duck against anti awacs missiles. and remember super 30 is coming.*
> *i think in strike and ground attack mkis are better than whole paf combined
> *
> absolutely correct friend. the best defences would be the hq 19



Welcome to the forum. 

You need alotttttttttttttttttttttttttt of knowledge regarding defence issues and aerial warfare. You are on the right place , nevertheless..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## KRAIT

TANMAY619 said:


> no paf ac has radar or ew system as good as mki. dont tell about the awacs as we also have phalcon awacs which are considered the best. even j 10b would be no match and dont bring in jf 17 as it has sub standard avionics and any rational person knows it. iaf's mkis have 170km range missiles and can get out any ac of paf without being detected. awacs of paf have a detection range of 350km(all the good ones have 400km range) and would be a sitting duck against anti awacs missiles. and remember super 30 is coming.
> i think in strike and ground attack mkis are better than whole paf combined
> 
> absolutely correct friend. the best defences would be the hq 19


O boy, read all the posts specially by the professional ones on this forum, if you don't believe other countries' posters, read "Sancho" 's post about this scenario. He is an Indian. 

Not questioning your knowledge but there is more that meets the eyes.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## dearone4u_22

AUz said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> You need alotttttttttttttttttttttttttt of knowledge regarding defence issues and aerial warfare. You are on the right place , nevertheless..



Nope actually he is in the wrong place...when was the last time two aircraft..or two naval ship or for that matter Any warfare Strategy discussed on this forum


----------



## danger007

KRAIT said:


> O boy, read all the posts specially by the professional ones on this forum, if you don't believe other countries' posters, read "Sancho" 's post about this scenario. He is an Indian.
> 
> Not questioning your knowledge but there is more that meets the eyes.



may be tanmay is female.........


----------



## mylovepakistan

TANMAY619 said:


> no paf ac has radar or ew system as good as mki. dont tell about the awacs as we also have phalcon awacs which are considered the best. even j 10b would be no match and dont bring in jf 17 as it has sub standard avionics and any rational person knows it. iaf's mkis have 170km range missiles and can get out any ac of paf without being detected. awacs of paf have a detection range of 350km(all the good ones have 400km range) and would be a sitting duck against anti awacs missiles. and remember super 30 is coming.
> i think in strike and ground attack mkis are better than whole paf combined
> 
> absolutely correct friend. the best defences would be the hq 19




hi,since you are very new to this forum,
we can expect such aweful assumptions from an indian fan boy...

true,no airborne radar in PAF is comparable to MKI's PESA radar,
but wait,have you really gone through the very 1st page of this thread? i dont think so,

MKI has good radar but it has a huge RCS value too,even a JF 17 or block 52 can spot MKI earlier,

"jf 17 as it has sub standard avionics and any rational person knows it"


o boy come out of the world of fantacies and specialy the world of wikipedia,
go through jf 17 info pool thread...best of luck

"iaf's mkis have 170km range missiles and can get out any ac of paf without being detected"

that is one of the most obnoxious statement coming from you,
which missile would you bring PAF jets down with at range of 170 km ???

when MKI's radar cant detect them at 170 km ....
oh you might be thinkking of AWACS killer missiles....LOL!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

"Super menuverability"

The term "super-maneuverability" was coined by Dr. Wolfgang Herbst, initiator of the USA's X-31 prototype program, in defining controllability up to 60Ã&#8218;Â° to 70Ã&#8218;Â° Angle-of-Attack with transients of 120Ã&#8218;Â° or more.

The Su-30MKI has no AoA limitations: it can fly at even 180 degree AoA and still recover.<<<unique. This high super-agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew. The addition of another seat means that the pilot is free to concentrate on flying the aircraft while the second pilot can engage targets.

Mikhail Simonov was stung by press criticism that this machine was appearing at airshows doing tailslides and Cobras without any underwing stores. So it was promptly fitted with a representative warload consisting of (from port wingtip) - AA-11, AA-11, AA-10, Kh-31P, 6 x OFAB-100-120 bombs on a MER fitted to the port lower intake, KAB-500KR on centreline pylon, Kh-29T on lower Stbd intake, Kh-59M, RVV-AE, AA-11, AA-11 and still did its full show routine! A similar performance was witnessed at an airshow where the Landing Gear could not retracted in a Su-37, but Yevgeny Frolov still went on do perform the show routine without any changes!

and of course, the Su30MKI does the famed Cobra maneuver

and u are indeed correct their dogfighting ability cannot be matched by any fighter, including the f22, wich has less manevarablity

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## mylovepakistan

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> "Super menuverability"
> 
> The term "super-maneuverability" was coined by Dr. Wolfgang Herbst, initiator of the USA's X-31 prototype program, in defining controllability up to 60Ã&#8218;Â° to 70Ã&#8218;Â° Angle-of-Attack with transients of 120Ã&#8218;Â° or more.
> 
> The Su-30MKI has no AoA limitations: it can fly at even 180 degree AoA and still recover.<<<unique. This high super-agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew. The addition of another seat means that the pilot is free to concentrate on flying the aircraft while the second pilot can engage targets.
> 
> Mikhail Simonov was stung by press criticism that this machine was appearing at airshows doing tailslides and Cobras without any underwing stores. So it was promptly fitted with a representative warload consisting of (from port wingtip) - AA-11, AA-11, AA-10, Kh-31P, 6 x OFAB-100-120 bombs on a MER fitted to the port lower intake, KAB-500KR on centreline pylon, Kh-29T on lower Stbd intake, Kh-59M, RVV-AE, AA-11, AA-11 and still did its full show routine! A similar performance was witnessed at an airshow where the Landing Gear could not retracted in a Su-37, but Yevgeny Frolov still went on do perform the show routine without any changes!
> 
> and of course, the Su30MKI does the famed Cobra maneuver
> 
> and u are indeed correct their dogfighting ability cannot be matched by any fighter, including the f22, wich has less manevarablity



hey are you simply quoting vayu sena tripod here?
go through very 1st page of this thread,


----------



## Alchemy

MKI would continue to dominate the subcontinent skies in the foreseeable future .. unless somehow Pak gets its hand on J-20 , MKI will dominate any aircraft Pak may have in its arsenal and that's a well known fact, for those Pak fanboys who dont like to see the truth as it is , good luck to them !!!


----------



## Mav3rick

Aeronaut said:


> Guess what Indians would reply with , after you blow up their entire air fleet on ground [too exaggerated to begin with] ?


 
We tried that in 1965 but could not accomplish the objectives. But even if that happens (extremely exaggerated as per your own suggestion), I would say that India will have to back off if Pakistan calls for a ceasefire, otherwise India will rely upon her BM's and GLCM's.


----------



## Mav3rick

Last Hope said:


> Well, it was not able to jam the JF-17 radars was it?
> F-16 Block 52+ is not the only fighter in PAF inventory.



Do you mean to imply that the KLJ-7 Radar is better then the APG Radar on F-16 Block 52+? And do you mean to say that the anti jamming suites of JF-17's are better then F-16's? Furthermore, I do not think that even the Mirage-2000/9 or MKI's can effectively jam F-16's B-52+ radars.





Last Hope said:


> Incase of a war breakout, PAF still has an advantage over IAF. IAF needs to have Squadrons at North and North-East, whereas PAF has smaller area hence more flexible. The JF-17 is a new aircraft and the first dogfight would leave the enemy wandering on how to encounter. The RCS of JF-17 which is lower than the Su-30 is an advantage so is the lower IR signature. The Su-30s would be the first to appear in the JF-17 radar and a BVR has much better chances with higher RCS. Plus, the JF-17 will be less prone to radar jamming than Block 52+.



For the second time you have implied that the JF-17's incorporate a more effective radar (in anti jamming) then the F-16 B-52+. That is not correct.

And though you have assumed that the SU-30MKI will appear on JF-17's radar because of the much bigger RCS, you have failed to credit the MKI with a much more powerful radar that can detect a JF-17 size RCS from a longer range then vice versa. Finally, the effectiveness, post numerous improvements, of the BVRAAM, especially at maximum range, is still highly debatable. A WVRAAM on the other hand, is a different story.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## shree835

In future some more thread is going to come. i.e.

1.	How PAF should counter LCA MK2
2.	How PAF should counter Rafale.
3.	How PAF should counter FGFA.
4.	How PAF should counter T50.
5.	How PAF should counter AMCA.
5. How PAF should counter Super SU-30MKI.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mav3rick

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You are in error----su 30 won't appear on j17's radar---as a matter of fact the jf 17 will appear on th su30's radar before it happens otherwise---.
> 
> Su 30 has a massive radar---I think that you missed out on the posts by our specialist gambit----.
> 
> The above scenario is in case long distance interception like over the ocean---on land---all the bases are close by---all air craft will be pretty much visible to each other.
> 
> You also have jumped ahead---the jf17 would have to pass thru the barrage of bvr's at first to come within wvr range.
> 
> You are correct on the second part---most of these bases are with surface to surface or air to ground weapons.


 
There is 1 important factor missing from the posts of both you guys.......AWEACS! 

Considering that the MKI's will be entering our airspace where our AWEACS will be more effective, it may just balance the equation a bit b/w datalinked JF-17's and MKI's .



shree835 said:


> In future some more thread is going to come. i.e.
> 
> 1.	How PAF should counter LCA MK2
> 2.	How PAF should counter Rafale.
> 3.	How PAF should counter FGFA.
> 4.	How PAF should counter T50.
> 5.	How PAF should counter AMCA.
> 5. How PAF should counter Super SU-30MKI.


 
1 - Yeah, in 30 years.
2 - Hmm.....10 years atleast?
3 - 15 years?

You get where I am going with it, right?


----------



## HANI

shree835 said:


> In future some more thread is going to come. i.e.
> 
> 1.	How PAF should counter LCA MK2
> 2.	How PAF should counter Rafale.
> 3.	How PAF should counter FGFA.
> 4.	How PAF should counter T50.
> 5.	How PAF should counter AMCA.
> 5. How PAF should counter Super SU-30MKI.



LCA MK2 ????? come on fan boy at least induct MK1 first ...................

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

A Jf17 armed with externally mounted weapons is a big Spot on Mki Radar. So detection advantage is Fuss here. Su30Mki mounts a BIG powerful NIIP N011M Bars radar, at least x8 BVR's and a Powerful State of art Elta EL/M-8222 Jammer pod 'll fry incoming missile seeker. Bringing Down a beast like that is not easy kill but Mki is not invincible either. 

Even if Jf17 manage to detect a Mki 1st ? there is Not much you can do. Only a noob pilot 'll launch BVR missiles at maximum ranges and gives enough time to opponent to deploy counter measures or take evasive maneuvers. 

Su30mki Huge RCS can be use as advantage to fool enemy pilots. a combo of Su30mki and Mig21 / LCA or even Rafale is death warrant for enemies. air battles are Not simple as most of us thinks. 

Do tell me How PAF ll manage to bring down 270+ Mki's ? (and Super sukhois) ? i am not even taking other IAF fighters into account.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## alimobin memon

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> A Jf17 armed with externally mounted weapons is a big Spot on Mki Radar. So detection advantage is Fuss here. Su30Mki mounts a BIG powerful NIIP N011M Bars radar, at least x8 BVR's and a Powerful State of art Elta EL/M-8222 Jammer pod 'll fry incoming missile seeker. Bringing Down a beast like that is not easy kill but Mki is not invincible either.
> 
> Even if Jf17 manage to detect a Mki 1st ? there is Not much you can do. Only a noob pilot 'll launch BVR missiles at maximum ranges and gives enough time to opponent to deploy counter measures or take evasive maneuvers.
> 
> Su30mki Huge RCS can be use as advantage to fool enemy pilots. a combo of Su30mki and Mig21 / LCA or even Rafale is death warrant for enemies. air battles are Not simple as most of us thinks.
> 
> Do tell me How PAF ll manage to bring down 270+ Mki's ? (and Super sukhois) ? i am not even taking other IAF fighters into account.



jf17 after full external load RCS is close 5m^2 MKI radar if we calculate detects jf17 at 120km where as jf17 radar has been improved to detect a 5m^2 target at 130km so my brother let me tell u the MKI RCS is greater than 15 (as f15) The new jf17 name as block 2 cost is around 25-26mn$ so let me tell you Low cost was block 1 ok for you , but block2 has been improved, First of all 8BVR are useless if it is destroyed early before it has only launched 2 , at the other hand nobody will fire BVR until the are 100km radius nobody fires at long range , EW suite of jf17 has been reported by PAF f16 pilots themselves that it jammed our radars in exercises , Air chief Marshall has already stated block 1 as 85% of block 52+ , block 52+ costs 60million dollars as same as gripen is 50 million dollars but we know only NG is superior not the C or D , Cost is only problem when you come to west for weapons .... If So called super Sukhoi was so goood why did u bought rafales when u knew u can buy more than 200 out of same rafale program cost ... Because it is not as good as you think. To be honest u are fanatic as pakistani are for jf17 both are bad threat to each other my friend TVC is not going to be as good as expected in war even didnt prove well in RED flag . let me tell you a thing that India is very Very big it has also to protect his own airspace and borders from all sides , I guarantee u only 100 or so India can use them against pakistan in war, most of mki's are faced already towards CHINA , Even United states with so much power does not send that much aircrafts than u think india will for example whole NATO was in war not USA ... but Pakistan has advantage that if india attacks they can use All fleet to defend as it is their own country...


----------



## notorious_eagle

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> A Jf17 armed with externally mounted weapons is a big Spot on Mki Radar. So detection advantage is Fuss here. Su30Mki mounts a BIG powerful NIIP N011M Bars radar, at least x8 BVR's and a Powerful State of art Elta EL/M-8222 Jammer pod 'll fry incoming missile seeker. Bringing Down a beast like that is not easy kill but Mki is not invincible either.



Same goes for the MKI. With externally mounted weapons, the MKI will have an RCS and IR signature as big as an elephant. JF17 data-linked with external hardware will see the MKI approximately at the same time as the MKI will see the JF17. 



Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Even if Jf17 manage to detect a Mki 1st ? there is Not much you can do. Only a noob pilot 'll launch BVR missiles at maximum ranges and gives enough time to opponent to deploy counter measures or take evasive maneuvers.



Thats ridiculous

If i can see my enemy first, i will try to go around his radar nose to escape detection. There are several tactics a pilot can employ if he can see his enemy first to get into a better fighting position. 



Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Su30mki Huge RCS can be use as advantage to fool enemy pilots. a combo of Su30mki and Mig21 / LCA or even Rafale is death warrant for enemies. air battles are Not simple as most of us thinks.



This is where radar resolution comes into play. PAF deploys several layers of radar coverage with both active and passive hardware. This enables PAF to see exactly the type of aircraft that is inbound and what their formation is. This combo of strike package is indeed very potent but your enemy isn't exactly impotent armed with F86 Sabers. 



Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Do tell me How PAF ll manage to bring down 270+ Mki's ? (and Super sukhois) ? i am not even taking other IAF fighters into account.



Since you are the one making a claim here, i ask you to prove to me how the MKI will break through Pakistan's defences. I am not saying it cannot be done, but Pakistan's AD is quite robust and potent. There is no way IAF can take the skies without taking heavy attrition losses. 

But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AUz

notorious_eagle said:


> But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?



R.I.P , the civilizations of Sub-continent.

CNN : The satellite images have shown that Mumbai , Karachi , Delhi , Hyderabad , Kolkata , Lahore , Amritsar , Islamabad , Chennai etc are turning up into big clouds of red mushroom smoke.

The war between India and Pakistan , ladies and gentlemen , is over.....forever.


~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~~~~~

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

alimobin memon said:


> jf17 after full external load RCS is close 5m^2 MKI radar if we calculate detects jf17 at 120km where as jf17 radar has been improved to detect a 5m^2 target at 130km so my brother let me tell u the MKI RCS is greater than 15 (as f15) The new jf17 name as block 2 cost is around 25-26mn$ so let me tell you Low cost was block 1 ok for you , but block2 has been improved, *First of all 8BVR are useless* if it is destroyed early before it has only launched 2 , at the other hand nobody will fire BVR until the are 100km radius nobody fires at long range , EW suite of jf17 has been reported by PAF f16 pilots themselves that it jammed our radars in exercises , Air chief Marshall has already stated block 1 as 85% of block 52+ , block 52+ costs 60million dollars as same as gripen is 50 million dollars but we know only NG is superior not the C or D , Cost is only problem when you come to west for weapons .... If So called super Sukhoi was so goood why did u bought rafales when u knew u can buy more than 200 out of same rafale program cost ... Because it is not as good as you think. *To be honest u are fanatic as pakistani are for jf17* both are bad threat to each other my friend TVC is not going to be as good as expected in war even didnt prove well in RED flag . let me tell you a thing that India is very Very big it has also to protect his own airspace and borders from all sides , I guarantee u only 100 or so India can use them against pakistan in war, most of mki's are faced already towards CHINA , Even United states with so much power does not send that much aircrafts than u think india will for example whole NATO was in war not USA ... but Pakistan has advantage that if india attacks they can use All fleet to defend as it is their own country...



Such a Baseless noob post by you,
HOW You know Jf17 RCs is 5m^ ? are you a insider ? Can YOU back your claim with credible source ? 
HOW you know su30mki rcs is greater than F15 ? is there any official source which disclose mki RCS ? 

Stop Dreaming ,Get real, i lol'd after reading bolded part! 



notorious_eagle said:


> Same goes for the MKI. With externally mounted weapons, the MKI will have an RCS and IR signature as big as an elephant. JF17 data-linked with external hardware will see the MKI approximately at the same time as the MKI will see the JF17.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats ridiculous
> 
> *If i can see my enemy first, i will try to go around his radar nose to escape detection. There are several tactics a pilot can employ if he can see his enemy first to get into a better fighting position*.
> 
> 
> 
> This is where radar resolution comes into play. PAF deploys several layers of radar coverage with both active and passive hardware. This enables PAF to see exactly the type of aircraft that is inbound and what their formation is. This combo of strike package is indeed very potent but your enemy isn't exactly impotent armed with F86 Sabers.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you are the one making a claim here, i ask you to prove to me how the MKI will break through Pakistan's defences. I am not saying it cannot be done, but Pakistan's AD is quite robust and potent. There is no way IAF can take the skies without taking heavy attrition losses.
> 
> But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?



Never denied that Externally mounter weapons 'll not increase Mki RCS, so irrelevant point raised by you.
_____

On bolded part, yes Iaf pilots can also apply same tactics, even radar sites can be taken out by standoff weapons. it Doesn't mean that Iaf can't penetrate PAF defense layers, but Mki is not invincible either as i said before.


----------



## VCheng

notorious_eagle said:


> .................
> 
> But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?



No, the more important scenario to ponder is this: Economic collapse creates conditions ripe for a civil war, with factions and gangs ruling the streets. Pakistan sees no choice but to "request" the UNSC for "assistance" .... ....


----------



## notorious_eagle

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Never denied that Externally mounter weapons 'll not increase Mki RCS, so irrelevant point raised by you.



You are the one who raised this point in the first place, why blame me. 



Wet Shirt Contest said:


> On bolded part, yes Iaf pilots can also apply same tactics, even radar sites can be taken out by standoff weapons. it Doesn't mean that Iaf can't penetrate PAF defense layers, but Mki is not invincible either as i said before.



Indeed the IAF can destroy static radar sites with Anti Radiation Missiles. But keep in mind that both sides are employing Anti Radiation Weapons and will be sending out strike packages for SEAD missions. Intelligence, preparation and most importantly luck will determine who ends up being successful. 



VCheng said:


> No, the more important scenario to ponder is this: Economic collapse creates conditions ripe for a civil war, with factions and gangs ruling the streets. Pakistan sees no choice but to "request" the UNSC for "assistance" .... ....



Not likely to happen . The State is no where near the position you are describing above my friend. I know sitting in the US and watching Western television might make you think otherwise, but believe me we Pakistanis are living quite peacefully here. This is the problem with us Pakistanis, we ourselves are our biggest enemies. We never get tired of bashing ourselves.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

*Simple Answer why fight so much....*

PAK does not have arsenal to compete with SU 30MKI.... F16 are sitting ducks.... though some F16D can give a fight but can be shot down by BVR.

Forget the Chinese Junks.... like mobile they blast during charging and these aircraft will blast during high maneuvers and fall like junk from the sky, these aircraft will not dare to cross INDIAN border or they will be sitting ducks for AKASH and SPYDER and S 300PMU...

Every PAK Airforce office knows very well the capabilities of IAF and says *"Misadventure will be dealt with Iron Fist"* I never heard IAF brass saying so *"Does PAF does not go for Adventure"*

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## VCheng

notorious_eagle said:


> Y.............
> Not likely to happen . The State is no where near the position you are describing above my friend. I know sitting in the US and watching Western television might make you think otherwise, but believe me we Pakistanis are living quite peacefully here. This is the problem with us Pakistanis, we ourselves are our biggest enemies. We never get tired of bashing ourselves.



I agree. My point was that annihilating war with India is even _less _likely than the _improbable _scenario I described, and therefore we should concentrate more our our economy than our military now that we have a credible nuclear deterrent.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Fazlu

notorious_eagle said:


> But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?


 
I dont think that's in our best interests. The refugee influx into India would be un-manageable.


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

notorious_eagle said:


> You are the one who raised this point in the first place, why blame me.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed the IAF can destroy static radar sites with Anti Radiation Missiles. But keep in mind that both sides are employing Anti Radiation Weapons and will be sending out strike packages for SEAD missions. Intelligence, preparation and most importantly luck will determine who ends up being successful.
> 
> 
> 
> Not likely to happen . The State is no where near the position you are describing above my friend. I know sitting in the US and watching Western television might make you think otherwise, but believe me we Pakistanis are living quite peacefully here. This is the problem with us Pakistanis, we ourselves are our biggest enemies. We never get tired of bashing ourselves.



Nobody is blaming anyone, you just raised the same point i said! above. your reply of that post is not helping either.
__________

To that i agree, I hope such situation never escalate. 

Regards


----------



## alimobin memon

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Such a Baseless noob post by you,
> HOW You know Jf17 RCs is 5m^ ? are you a insider ? Can YOU back your claim with credible source ?
> HOW you know su30mki rcs is greater than F15 ? is there any official source which disclose mki RCS ?
> 
> Stop Dreaming ,Get real, i lol'd after reading bolded part!
> 
> 
> 
> Never denied that Externally mounter weapons 'll not increase Mki RCS, so irrelevant point raised by you.
> _____
> 
> On bolded part, yes Iaf pilots can also apply same tactics, even radar sites can be taken out by standoff weapons. it Doesn't mean that Iaf can't penetrate PAF defense layers, but Mki is not invincible either as i said before.


My friend what i am saying that the RCS of jf17 is already claimed to have 1 or less than it and with payload it increase to b/w 4 and 5 ... while'st SU30MKI RCS is already discussed in many times that it has very high RCS like F15 only SU35 and fullback versions have less RCS to less than 1 ... The design explains it self , I dont think u have seen the discovery wings documentary MIG29 and SU27 , In these u will clearly see that the Sukhoi's have been designed to counter BIG aircrafts like F15 for instance whil's mig29 to counter f16 and f18 , other western med weight jets , Further when 4thgeneration era came to become little old Lockheed and Boeing decided to Created new designs with the ability to have stealth or near stealth for that RCS calculation is the Main Explanation , but it was found to take atleast 25years since 1985 estimate the research started in west where as Sukhoi realised that SU27 is an excellent platform but due to its huge size it was even at that time easy to detect reasons were its open engine from back near vertical stablizers u can see the intake are so open that u can see the engine directly from forward canopy ... these factors were not found in F16 nor F18 there intake were covered to cover the inside of the engine , i hope u understand  , at the other hand The Russians brought new prototypes namely SU27 ++ , Su30 , SU33 ,SU34 , SU37 and SU35 out of which the extreme BAR and RAM coatings are found in SU35 , SU34 , Su37 terminator ... My friend i may be pakistani , But it is a fact that SU30MKI has greater RCS and jf17 has less u can see the jf17 has DSI intake , except exhaust all engine is in covered in fuselage as in mig29 and f16 , it has very few edges , some edges are forcely turned to rounding surface as landing gears ... But What SU30MKI makes a beast is TVC , HMD , PESA , IRST these factors are not found in jf17 , now u see IRST cannot track target that is 100km far , HMD is for dogfight , TVC is wvr but now we see 40G overloaded missiles almost any airforce RED flag revealed that TVC not very effective ... PESA will provide only less RCS as it still uses single frequency signal not like AESA ... The SU30MKI radar is rumoured to be changed i heard not sure but current radar after jf17 klj7v2 is already tweaked and added to jf17 ( tweaking is actually more of a small update even on a radar that is already produced just some minor modifications) radar has 130 against 5m^2 ... if SU30MKI gets AESA it is another rafale for IAF  but looking at the current facts the BVR combat is in jf17 if RCS is what i stated of SU30 MKI greater than 20 and less than 25.... 
Nobody is noob everyone is student and teacher i know what i know , if u are really technical i can show u we are too


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

alimobin memon said:


> My friend what i am saying that the RCS of jf17 is already claimed to have 1 or less than it and with payload it increase to b/w 4 and 5 ... while'st SU30MKI RCS is already discussed in many times that it has very high RCS like F15 only SU35 and fullback versions have less RCS to less than 1 ... The design explains it self , I dont think u have seen the discovery wings documentary MIG29 and SU27 , In these u will clearly see that the Sukhoi's have been designed to counter BIG aircrafts like F15 for instance whil's mig29 to counter f16 and f18 , other western med weight jets , Further when 4thgeneration era came to become little old Lockheed and Boeing decided to Created new designs with the ability to have stealth or near stealth for that RCS calculation is the Main Explanation , but it was found to take atleast 25years since 1985 estimate the research started in west where as Sukhoi realised that SU27 is an excellent platform but due to its huge size it was even at that time easy to detect reasons were its open engine from back near vertical stablizers u can see the intake are so open that u can see the engine directly from forward canopy ... these factors were not found in F16 nor F18 there intake were covered to cover the inside of the engine , i hope u understand  , at the other hand The Russians brought new prototypes namely SU27 ++ , Su30 , SU33 ,SU34 , SU37 and SU35 out of which the extreme BAR and RAM coatings are found in SU35 , SU34 , Su37 terminator ... My friend i may be pakistani , But it is a fact that SU30MKI has greater RCS and jf17 has less u can see the jf17 has DSI intake , except exhaust all engine is in covered in fuselage as in mig29 and f16 , it has very few edges , some edges are forcely turned to rounding surface as landing gears ... But What SU30MKI makes a beast is TVC , HMD , PESA , IRST these factors are not found in jf17 , now u see IRST cannot track target that is 100km far , HMD is for dogfight , TVC is wvr but now we see 40G overloaded missiles almost any airforce RED flag revealed that TVC not very effective ... PESA will provide only less RCS as it still uses single frequency signal not like AESA ... The SU30MKI radar is rumoured to be changed i heard not sure but current radar after jf17 klj7v2 is already tweaked and added to jf17 ( tweaking is actually more of a small update even on a radar that is already produced just some minor modifications) radar has 130 against 5m^2 ... if SU30MKI gets AESA it is another rafale for IAF  but looking at the current facts the BVR combat is in jf17 if RCS is what i stated of SU30 MKI greater than 20 and less than 25....
> Nobody is noob everyone is student and teacher i know what i know , if u are really technical i can show u we are too



Memon Your baseless Post is Not helping, i asked 2 simple questions and your reply is waaay!!! offtrack No credible source ? drop it here! you are wasting my time.


----------



## Alphacharlie

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> *Simple Answer why fight so much....*
> 
> PAK does not have arsenal to compete with SU 30MKI.... F16 are sitting ducks.... though some F16D can give a fight but can be shot down by BVR.
> 
> Forget the Chinese Junks.... like mobile they blast during charging and these aircraft will blast during high maneuvers and fall like junk from the sky, these aircraft will not dare to cross INDIAN border or they will be sitting ducks for AKASH and SPYDER and S 300PMU...
> 
> Every PAK Airforce office knows very well the capabilities of IAF and says *"Misadventure will be dealt with Iron Fist"* I never heard IAF brass saying so *"Does PAF does not go for Adventure"*



Service life of Mig 21 Type 57 or Type 75 is 5500-6000hrs
Same for J7 is 2500-2800hrs at Max

Now do ur Math....on Quality


----------



## mylovepakistan

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Memon Your baseless Post is Not helping, i asked 2 simple questions and your reply is waaay!!! offtrack No credible source ? drop it here! you are wasting my time.



HMMMM...so you dont think that jf 17's RCS is 1m2 ( clean ) while 3-4m2 ( loaded )

and MKI's RCS is as big as elephant,

first lets move to jf 17's RCS,

the jf 17's RCS is believed to have been lowest in the current PAF inventory which includes block 52 ( remember block 52 has 1.2m2 RCS in clean configuration ) 
if you ask me for a link, go through jf 17 information pool thread/multirole threads,OSCAR who is one of the oldest moderators out there + nabil_05 and najam khan..all these members have openely cleared this...

now before you jump and say,have they insiders...so yes they have insiders.

any ways let me give you a clue too,how a jf 17 gets such small RCS,

- DSI intake that HELPS to hide engine fan blades ( does not hide COMPLETELY though ) and hence helps to reduce frontal RCS UPTO A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT...

- its smaller aircraft ( smaller than block 52 )

- RAM paint ( though very very limited but its believed that it has RAM on some parts of jet )

- limited use of composites ( nearly 8 % )

now just for ur info a MIG 21 has 3m2 clean RCS,and i dont need to tell you that what material its made of ( pure metal )...

hence its safe to assume JF 17 has 1m2 RCS and its confirmed by our think tanks too,

coming to SUKHOI 30 MKI's RCS...

well,if you want a link,here is a statement saying some thing like this,

"According to a defence ministry official, &#8220;It is an amazing looking aircraft. It has a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of just 0.5 square metre as compared to the Su-30MKI&#8217;s RCS of about 20 square metres.&#8221;

India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

indians must mad and plain stupid to invest so much money on su30mki with its massive RCS .

Stupid because they could have easily spent the $14 billion for 270 SU30MKI on 

150 mirage2000-5 INSTEAD

CHINEASE MUST BE STUPID as well to buy J11 SU30 SU27 wen they easily induct the much smaller thunder JF17 instead with all those above advantages over SU30MKI

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## alimobin memon

mylovepakistan said:


> HMMMM...so you dont think that jf 17's RCS is 1m2 ( clean ) while 3-4m2 ( loaded )
> 
> and MKI's RCS is as big as elephant,
> 
> first lets move to jf 17's RCS,
> 
> the jf 17's RCS is believed to have been lowest in the current PAF inventory which includes block 52 ( remember block 52 has 1.2m2 RCS in clean configuration )
> if you ask me for a link, go through jf 17 information pool thread,OSCAR who is one of the oldest moderators out there + nabil_05 and najam khan..all these members have openely cleared this...
> 
> now before you jump and say,have they insiders...so yes they have insiders.
> 
> any ways let me give you a clue too,how a jf 17 gets such small RCS,
> 
> - DSI intake that HELPS to hide engine fan blades ( does not hide COMPLETELY ) and hence helps to reduce frontal RCS,
> 
> - its smaller aircraft ( smaller than block 52 )
> 
> - RAM paint ( though very very limited but its believed that it has RAM on some parts of jet )
> 
> - limited use of composites ( nearly 8 % )
> 
> now just for ur info a MIG 21 has 3m2 clean RCS,and i dont need to tell you that what material its made of ( pure metal )...
> 
> hence its safe to assume JF 17 has 1m2 RCS and its confirmed by our think tanks too,
> 
> coming to SUKHOI 30 MKI's RCS...
> 
> well,if you want a link,here is a statement saying some thing like this,
> 
> "According to a defence ministry official, &#8220;It is an amazing looking aircraft. It has a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of just 0.5 square metre as compared to the Su-30MKI&#8217;s RCS of about 20 square metres.&#8221;
> 
> India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter


Thanks for clearing the Wet guy  i was explaining the same thing but the wet guys seems to have no manners


----------



## Mercenary

They should counter it by making peace with India.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## SQ8

Alphacharlie said:


> Service life of Mig 21 Type 57 or Type 75 is 5500-6000hrs
> Same for J7 is *2500-2800hrs* at Max
> 
> Now do ur Math....on Quality



??
Where is this figure from?


----------



## Najam Khan

Engagements in war are never restricted to type and number. Fighter wings, air def units, ELINT/ES/AWACS/ISR and Air refueling platforms (acting as Forward Air Refueling Point (FARP)) comes up with a joint strategy based on enemy air power, potential objectives and available resources to counter enemy in Sector X,Y,Z.

Considering India's CSD, whatever gameplan IAF will come up with Pakistan will deploy its all available assets to counter them irrespective of type/quality of Indian asset deployed on the other side. The network centric warfare (from both sides) will ensure a combined force fighting together to achieve its objectives....It doesn't matter much whether its Su-30, Rafale, F16 MLU/Bk52 or JF-17 in the air, what matters is that how both sides meet their war time objectives in their assumed scenarios.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Yeti

Will be a more intresting question once the Sukhoi 30 Mki gets it's deep upgrade turning it into the Super Sukhoi with a lower RCS.

India will see its fighters modernised within the framework of the so-called Super programme, which involves introduction of an upgraded pilot cockpit, new radar and* several structural elements enhancing the jets stealth features that make it less visible to the enemy.* The upgrade will cover all aircraft employed by IAF, increasing the Su-30MKIs weapons load and list. 

The modernised Su-30MKI is reported to be able to carry under its body one BrahMos missile, which is expected to weigh less than its land-based and naval counterparts. The Russia-India joint venture Brahmos Aerospace Private Limited, Sukhoi Holding and HAL are jointly engaged in developing the airborne version of the missile. Sivathanu Pillai, CEO of the joint venture, said he hoped to see BrahMos missiles launched from the aircraft in late 2012. 

Armed with 5G jet features, Super Sukhoi on the way... | Russia & India Report


----------



## Thorough Pro

Original!!! very nice.





AUz said:


> R.I.P , the civilizations of Sub-continent.
> 
> CNN : The satellite images have shown that Mumbai , Karachi , Delhi , Hyderabad , Kolkata , Lahore , Amritsar , Islamabad , Chennai etc are turning up into big clouds of red mushroom smoke.
> 
> The war between India and Pakistan , ladies and gentlemen , is over.....forever.
> 
> 
> ~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~~~~~


----------



## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> Engagements in war are never restricted to type and number. Fighter wings, air def units, ELINT/ES/AWACS/ISR and Air refueling platforms (acting as Forward Air Refueling Point (FARP)) comes up with a joint strategy based on enemy air power, potential objectives and available resources to counter enemy in Sector X,Y,Z.
> 
> Considering India's CSD, whatever gameplan IAF will come up with Pakistan will deploy its all available assets to counter them irrespective of type/quality of Indian asset deployed on the other side. The network centric warfare (from both sides) will ensure a combined force fighting together to achieve its objectives....It doesn't matter much whether its Su-30, Rafale, F16 MLU/Bk52 or JF-17 in the air, what matters is that how both sides meet their war time objectives in their assumed scenarios.



Najam Saheb,

Being realistic, JF-17/BLK52 duo is no match........we desperately need a medium/heavy class fighter.....best would be for Pakistan to induct J-10s and then get on with the stealth planes with China.


----------



## Aamna Ali

Watch from 6:40 for the MKI..The development history of the Su-27 family,its engines,Radars and avionics.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

mylovepakistan said:


> HMMMM...so you dont think that jf 17's RCS is 1m2 ( clean ) while 3-4m2 ( loaded )
> 
> and MKI's RCS is as big as elephant,
> 
> first lets move to jf 17's RCS,
> 
> the jf 17's RCS is believed to have been lowest in the current PAF inventory which includes block 52 ( remember block 52 has 1.2m2 RCS in clean configuration )
> if you ask me for a link, go through jf 17 information pool thread/multirole threads,OSCAR who is one of the oldest moderators out there + nabil_05 and najam khan..all these members have openely cleared this...
> 
> now before you jump and say,have they insiders...so yes they have insiders.
> 
> any ways let me give you a clue too,how a jf 17 gets such small RCS,
> 
> - DSI intake that HELPS to hide engine fan blades ( does not hide COMPLETELY though ) and hence helps to reduce frontal RCS UPTO A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT...
> 
> - its smaller aircraft ( smaller than block 52 )
> 
> - RAM paint ( though very very limited but its believed that it has RAM on some parts of jet )
> 
> - limited use of composites ( nearly 8 % )
> 
> *now just for ur info a MIG 21 has 3m2 clean RCS,and i dont need to tell you that what material its made of ( pure metal )*...
> 
> hence its safe to assume JF 17 has 1m2 RCS and its confirmed by our think tanks too,
> 
> coming to SUKHOI 30 MKI's RCS...
> 
> well,if you want a link,here is a statement saying some thing like this,
> 
> "According to a defence ministry official, It is an amazing looking aircraft. It has a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of just 0.5 square metre as compared to the Su-30MKIs RCS of about 20 square metres.
> 
> India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter





I only asked How can you claim that Jf17 RCS is 1M^ ? and 3m^ (when loaded )? only assumptions ? 
I am well aware of all things you posted, but i simply asked for a credible source disclosing Jf17 RCS ,if you can't provide it than I request stop claiming things. Get real


Out of 4 point's the 2 points you raised again put question mark!
-Does 8% composites Helps to Reduce Jf17 RCS upto a significant amount ?
-How Do You Know RAM Paint is used on Some parts of JF17 ? I mean again ? 

On Su30mki , Indian airforce (IAF) never discloses true RCS value of a front-line fighter Bird, it was Some *ministry* official , had little or no knowledge related to this sector, I Do agree that RCS of Su30mki high ,depends on range.



alimobin memon said:


> Thanks for clearing the Wet guy  i was explaining the same thing but the wet guys seems to have no manners



Nice Try, Come again


----------



## ptldM3

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> I only asked How can you claim that Jf17 RCS is 1M^ ? and 3m^ (when loaded )? only assumptions ?




Most of those figures are pure speculation. This is not to say that the speculation can not be close.







Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Out of 4 point's the 2 points you raised again put question mark!
> -Does 8% composites Helps to Reduce Jf17 RCS upto a significant amount ?




Those composites will do nothing. We also do not know if it&#8217;s 8% composites by weight or by surface area. Either way even with it&#8217;s 8% composites by surface expect many of those to be alloy composites which does nothing for RCS reduction, even if we assume that the composites are some resin based ones there is just too little of it by volume to do anything,. If we are dealing with resin based composites the amount of RCS reduction will be minuscule to none.





Wet Shirt Contest said:


> -How Do You Know RAM Paint is used on Some parts of JF17 ? I mean again ?




These claims of &#8216;RAM&#8217; should be taken with a grain of salt. Everyone and there mother is claiming to use RAM. I am highly suspicious of these claims. From a logical standpoint it makes little sense, RAM is generally regarded as expensive and may require maintenance/ touchups. 


I do believe that RCS is important but the difference between two loaded aircraft will not make a large difference, comparing 3-5m2 vs1 10m2 isn&#8217;t going to be a decisive factor.

Remember aircraft such as the F-15, SU-27, and F-14, just to name a few, had very large RCS&#8217;s compared to the aircraft they shot down.





Wet Shirt Contest said:


> On Su30mki , Indian airforce *(IAF) never discloses true RCS value of a front-line fighter *Bird, it was Some *ministry* official , had little or no knowledge related to this sector, I Do agree that RCS of Su30mki high ,depends on range.




That is true, the RCS figures for the SU-30 are allover the place, I have seen people claim 5m2,10m2,15m2,20m2, even 25m2.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zarvan

Pakistan Air Force having 250 JF-17 Block 2 and around 150 J-10 B and around 100 F-16 they can counter any Indian threat what we need to do is getting these numbers and retiring our old planes as soon as possible with these planes and the quality of training which we give to our pilots Su 30 will not be a threat to us but we need these planes


----------



## danger007

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan Air Force having 250 JF-17 Block 2 and around 150 J-10 B and around 100 F-16 they can counter any Indian threat what we need to do is getting these numbers and retiring our old planes as soon as possible with these planes and the quality of training which we give to our pilots Su 30 will not be a threat to us but we need these planes



 sir you are counting only pakistan numbers..... But why don't you count Indian procurement at the same time.... IAF won't be sitting duck...... from where will you bring 100 F-16's??? do you think USA will allow you??.... coming to 250 jf-17... how many JF-17 currently inducted into pakistan inventory.... how many JETs coming out from production line every year.... as PAF is only customer for JF-17 their won't be massive production facilities.... do you think china will give 100 J-10 B within short period.... They will induct first later only they will give importance to PAF..... be realistic .... don't be speculative....


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

danger007 said:


> sir you are counting only pakistan numbers..... But why don't you count Indian procurement at the same time.... IAF won't be sitting duck...... from where will you bring 100 F-16's??? do you think USA will allow you??.... coming to 250 jf-17... how many JF-17 currently inducted into pakistan inventory.... how many JETs coming out from production line every year.... as PAF is only customer for JF-17 their won't be massive production facilities.... do you think china will give 100 J-10 B within short period.... They will induct first later only they will give importance to PAF..... be realistic .... don't be speculative....



Dont forget his claims of pilot training.


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

ptldM3 said:


> Most of those figures are pure speculation. This is not to say that the speculation can not be close.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those composites will do nothing. We also do not know if it&#8217;s 8% composites by weight or by surface area. Either way even with it&#8217;s 8% composites by surface expect many of those to be alloy composites which does nothing for RCS reduction, even if we assume that the composites are some resin based ones there is just too little of it by volume to do anything,. If we are dealing with resin based composites the amount of RCS reduction will be minuscule to none.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These claims of &#8216;RAM&#8217; should be taken with a grain of salt. Everyone and there mother is claiming to use RAM. I am highly suspicious of these claims. From a logical standpoint it makes little sense, RAM is generally regarded as expensive and may require maintenance/ touchups.
> 
> 
> I do believe that RCS is important but the difference between two loaded aircraft will not make a large difference, comparing 3-5m2 vs1 10m2 isn&#8217;t going to be a decisive factor.
> 
> Remember aircraft such as the F-15, SU-27, and F-14, just to name a few, had very large RCS&#8217;s compared to the aircraft they shot down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is true, the RCS figures for the SU-30 are allover the place, I have seen people claim 5m2,10m2,15m2,20m2, even 25m2.



To that I agree! Good post
But those questions are for him to bust his bubble, don't quote me,  

Regards
________________________________________________________

@Zarvan The problems are "funds" 250 JFT , *150 J10B* seems a Distant Dream anytime before 2025, Plus You Should also take Indian procurement into account.



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Dont forget his claims of pilot training.



and Remark on Su30


----------



## Mav3rick

Fazlu said:


> I dont think that's in our best interests. The *refugee* influx into India would be un-manageable.


 
You most likely meant *'invading'*, as otherwise your post would be absolute BS.


----------



## nawabo ke nawab

THE THREE BIGGEST ASSETS OF INDIAN AIR FORCE IN THE NEAR FUTURE--

RAFALE, T-50/FGFA , AWACS


----------



## Mav3rick

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> *Simple Answer why fight so much....*
> 
> PAK does not have arsenal to compete with SU 30MKI.... F16 are sitting ducks.... though some F16D can give a fight but can be shot down by BVR.
> 
> Forget the Chinese Junks.... like mobile they blast during charging and these aircraft will blast during high maneuvers and fall like junk from the sky, these aircraft will not dare to cross INDIAN border or they will be sitting ducks for AKASH and SPYDER and S 300PMU...
> 
> Every PAK Airforce office knows very well the capabilities of IAF and says *"Misadventure will be dealt with Iron Fist"* I never heard IAF brass saying so *"Does PAF does not go for Adventure"*


 
You forgot about Sunny Deol - The 1 man Army who will be laying down mines under fleeing Pakistani tank columns. The movie should be super hit. You were talking about a movie right?


----------



## nawabo ke nawab

PAK FA(5th generation)=







RAFALE=






MKI=


----------



## Mav3rick

nawabo ke nawab said:


> THE THREE BIGGEST ASSETS OF INDIAN AIR FORCE IN THE NEAR FUTURE--
> 
> RAFALE, T-50/FGFA , AWACS



Personally, I think Super MKI is better then RAFALE.



ptldM3 said:


> Remember aircraft such as the F-15, SU-27, and F-14, just to name a few, had very large RCSs compared to the aircraft they shot down.



Could be because of the Avionics/Jammers/Radars and the armaments in use?


----------



## Viper0011.

> Simple Answer why fight so much....
> PAK does not have arsenal to compete with SU 30MKI.... F16 are sitting ducks.... though some F16D can give a fight but can be shot down by BVR.
> 
> Every PAK Airforce office knows very well the capabilities of IAF and says "Misadventure will be dealt with Iron Fist" I never heard IAF brass saying so "Does PAF does not go for Adventure"
> Original Post By Major Shaitan Singh


 
I am sorry. This is what gets annoying. The Indian members just have too much fake ego and pride. You can't have a common sense driven discussion and the emotional barriers and unreal patriotism with grandiosity kicks in!!!

Is that true that Pakistan doesn't have ANY match to India...? Is that why you guys backed off about three times just in the past ten years after making the statements of attacks and ever prepping to some degree?
There had to be 'something' that stopped the semi-mighty military machine right? OH, I am SORRY, It was the PENTAGON. The daddy told you to do anything stupid will result in a stupider response from Pakistan and that you are not really a US or have the super power status. With that, I'd request the Indian members flying on the Pak-Fa carpet at Mach 9.9 to come down to the planet earth so we can have a real meaningful discussion. At the end NEITHER of you sides have a bigger di*k. Sorry to bust some testy balls here!

Btw, I want to make sure m post is not taken out of contest. India is MUCH larger both area and military wise. No doubt about it. But entirely discrediting a professional air force who's kicked your a*s more than once....isn't right. Unless you are the US, then its ok. As the US is technologically about 20 years superior than anyone out there.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## INDIAISM

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan Air Force having 250 JF-17 Block 2 and around 150 J-10 B and around 100 F-16 they can counter any Indian threat what we need to do is getting these numbers and retiring our old planes as soon as possible with these planes and the quality of training which we give to our pilots Su 30 will not be a threat to us but we need these planes


And from where will you get this number...what i mean is at present you have 17 F 16 Blk 52..rest are 43 upgraded F16.....You have ordered only 150 jf17.....and as faar as J10 is concern...i don't think you have even signed the contract for 36 J10....


----------



## SQ8

INDIAISM said:


> And from where will you get this number...what i mean is at present you have 17 F 16 Blk 52..rest are 43 upgraded F16.....You have ordered only 150 jf17.....and as faar as J10 is concern...i don't think you have even signed the contract for 36 J10....



The force is a state of change..
but at this stage.. the 18th block 52 is back.. at the end there will be some 62 F-16AM/BM's.. and 150 JF-17's.
No contract for the J-10's has been signed.


----------



## Rain

while reading the thread I came accross someone arguing that IAF wont be able to put its all assets against PaK, such type of thinking is very lame, it is same line of thinking that led to Kargil Debacle, where some stupid general Assumed that, india will not bring in heavy arty, India will not bring airforce, etc etc, and india did exactly wht tht stupid general assumed that India will not do that.
In a War never make such foolish assumptions. be ready for all eventualities, even least probable ones.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paan Singh

Rain said:


> while reading the thread I came accross someone arguing that IAF wont be able to put its all assets against PaK, such type of thinking is very lame, it is same line of thinking that led to Kargil Debacle, where some stupid general Assumed that, india will not bring in heavy arty, India will not bring airforce, etc etc, and india did exactly wht tht stupid general assumed that India will not do that.
> In a War never make such foolish assumptions. be ready for all eventualities, even least probable ones.



SPOT ON..

Half of the post on the thread is filled with this point..China is not our traditional enemy and not a single bullet is fired across border with dem.Its usual business on pakistanis side and our 80% armor is stationed for pakistan...and in case of any trouble with china with pakistan...we will surely call our allies..


----------



## alimobin memon

Rain said:


> while reading the thread I came accross someone arguing that IAF wont be able to put its all assets against PaK, such type of thinking is very lame, it is same line of thinking that led to Kargil Debacle, where some stupid general Assumed that, india will not bring in heavy arty, India will not bring airforce, etc etc, and india did exactly wht tht stupid general assumed that India will not do that.
> In a War never make such foolish assumptions. be ready for all eventualities, even least probable ones.



It was me who said so and I have no problem with that  ... So far what I am thinking is that here we have no right to speak in this forum , If u dont like my post just clear rather than saying some one lame shame won't bring light in my eyes , Next time watch your tongue ... I will say what my brain thinks ... If India will bring it's whole armed forces in pakistan Is such a stupid comment too... seems like dogs will protect the other borders that dont connect pakistan that's what u think , in Kargil both country brought the limited airforce , India lost two aircraft ,,, And who told you that general thought india will not bring jets ... What a fool example u gave , during Kargil F16 were locked by MIG29's and at other side Pakistan army air defense destroyed two jets of india , first read the literature and history then claim ur say ...


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

alimobin memon said:


> I was me who said so and I have no problem with that  ... So far what I am thinking is that here we have no right to speak in this forum , If u dont like my post just clear rather than saying some one lame shame won't bring light in my eyes , Next time watch your tongue ...



U make stupid claims and when you are criticized you go on to personal attack on the poster rather than defending your point.


----------



## alimobin memon

Shadow_Hunter said:


> U make stupid claims and when you are criticized you go on to personal attack on the poster rather than defending your point.


0_o really? how many times . Do you really think a general of any army would expect less from an enemy i dont think so man ...


----------



## Mav3rick

orangzaib said:


> I am sorry. *This is what gets annoying*. The Indian members just have too much fake ego and pride. You can't have a common sense driven discussion and the emotional barriers and unreal patriotism with grandiosity kicks in!!!
> 
> Is that true that Pakistan doesn't have ANY match to India...? Is that why you guys backed off about three times just in the past ten years after making the statements of attacks and ever prepping to some degree?
> There had to be 'something' that stopped the semi-mighty military machine right? OH, I am SORRY, It was the PENTAGON. The daddy told you to do anything stupid will result in a stupider response from Pakistan and that you are not really a US or have the super power status. With that, I'd request the Indian members flying on the Pak-Fa carpet at Mach 9.9 to come down to the planet earth so we can have a real meaningful discussion. At the end NEITHER of you sides have a bigger di*k. Sorry to bust some testy balls here!
> 
> Btw, I want to make sure m post is not taken out of contest. India is MUCH larger both area and military wise. No doubt about it. But entirely discrediting a professional air force who's kicked your a*s more than once....isn't right. Unless you are the US, then its ok. As the US is technologically about 20 years superior than anyone out there.


 
Dude....you know what's really annoying????? It's the fact that I did not post any of the BS you credited to me by forcing that quote on my nick. Please correct your mistake and address the correct poster.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

alimobin memon said:


> 0_o really? how many times . Do you really think a general of any army would expect less from an enemy i dont think so man ...



You are no general.


----------



## mylovepakistan

Neuro said:


> When they kickdu? 65, 71 , 84, 99? care 2 explain



dont let us now turn this thread into history thread,
however just for ur info,last time even ur bharatrakshak was mentioning more kills to PAF,

otherwise go and check gen. chuk yeager's autobiograghy,check john flicker's views..


hope you will get...


----------



## Mav3rick

Neuro said:


> When they kickdu? 65, 71 , 84, 99? care 2 explain



As Saif Ali Khan states in 'RACE', "tumhari yehi problem hai ke tum bohat nasamajh ho!"


----------



## alimobin memon

Shadow_Hunter said:


> You are no general.


<you dont say> 
I know I am not General but you should be sensible enough to agree that General is not post of novice so that he thinks that no fighters expected  {Peace}


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

alimobin memon said:


> <you dont say>
> I know I am not General but you should be sensible enough to agree that General is not post of novice so that he thinks that no fighters expected  {Peace}



I can't answer to this BS


----------



## Mav3rick

Rain said:


> while reading the thread I came accross someone arguing that IAF wont be able to put its all assets against PaK, *such type of thinking is very lame*, it is same line of thinking that led to Kargil Debacle, where some stupid general Assumed that, india will not bring in heavy arty, India will not bring airforce, etc etc, and india did exactly wht tht stupid general assumed that India will not do that.
> In a War never make such foolish assumptions. be ready for all eventualities, even least probable ones.


 
While reading your post I have to agree that such type of thinking is very lame....I mean the type of thinking that believes Pakistani Generals assumed that India would not go full on despite Pakistan squeezing their throats in Kargil. Kargil was a political debacle and not a military one! Actually, the plan was so brilliant that it is hard for some to digest even today. Everything was on plan until NS bowed down to his masters call.

What else do you think was the contention b/w NS and the Military?


----------



## Black Widow

RCS doesn't matter for 4th Gen fighter


I saw some discussion on RCS here. Let me tell you one thing, RCS is useless for 4th gen fighter, NO matter what one does 4th gen fighter RCS can't become a Factor. F15, Su27, Su30MKI, Su35BM are still King of Sky.

One need special technique to kill these birds. These Birds are with Agile, Powerful, Advanced Radar, Avionics. These Birds are awesome... Simply Awesome.


----------



## alimobin memon

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I can't answer to this BS



I got the answer


----------



## Black Widow

Mav3rick said:


> While reading your post I have to agree that such type of thinking is very lame....I mean the type of thinking that believes Pakistani Generals assumed that India would not go full on despite Pakistan squeezing their throats in Kargil. Kargil was a political debacle and not a military one! Actually, the plan was so brilliant that it is hard for some to digest even today. Everything was on plan until NS bowed down to his masters call.
> 
> What else do you think was the contention b/w NS and the Military?




Miyan saa'b saved Pakistan respect. Pakistan has no option other than get there soldier killed in Kargil. We were pounding Bombs over Pakistani Army. Pakistan official position was weak, They were not in position to ask PAF and Pak army in. Entire Northen Infantry was annihilated by M2000H.

India: We would have put everything we had.
Pakistan: Only volentere soldier would have left to die, PAF and regular army couldn't have joined the war.
 Read me if you can...


----------



## 45'22'

Black Widow said:


> Miyan saa'b saved Pakistan respect. Pakistan has no option other than get there soldier killed in Kargil. We were pounding Bombs over Pakistani Army. Pakistan official position was weak, They were not in position to ask PAF and Pak army in. Entire Northen Infantry was annihilated by M2000H.
> 
> India: We would have put everything we had.
> Pakistan: Only volentere soldier would have left to die, PAF and regular army couldn't have joined the war.
> Read me if you can...


incase u are unable to read him,he has written
*Miyan saa'b saved Pakistan respect. Pakistan has no option other than get there soldier killed in Kargil. We were pounding Bombs over Pakistani Army. Pakistan official position was weak, They were not in position to ask PAF and Pak army in. Entire Northen Infantry was annihilated by M2000H.

India: We would have put everything we had.
Pakistan: Only volentere soldier would have left to die, PAF and regular army couldn't have joined the war.*


----------



## KRAIT

Black Widow said:


> Miyan saa'b saved Pakistan respect. Pakistan has no option other than get there soldier killed in Kargil. We were pounding Bombs over Pakistani Army. Pakistan official position was weak, They were not in position to ask PAF and Pak army in. Entire Northen Infantry was annihilated by M2000H.
> 
> India: We would have put everything we had.
> Pakistan: Only volentere soldier would have left to die, PAF and regular army couldn't have joined the war.
> Read me if you can...


Do you even know why they didn't provided ground and air support?

It's all because they were intruders and if Pakistan provided cover to them, it would be direct support to terrorists according to whole world.

Pakistan couldn't provide the cover coz according to their statement there were no Pakistani soldiers at Kargil to begin with. Got the zest. 

Also, Pakistan under-estimated India's response, they didn't know India will bring Bofors and air support.

Check out a video of Najam Sethi who explains the entire Kargil war according to Pakistan's perspective.


----------



## angeldude13

mylovepakistan said:


> dont let us now turn this thread into history thread,
> however just for ur info,last time even ur bharatrakshak was mentioning more kills to PAF,
> 
> otherwise go and check gen. chuk yeager's autobiograghy,check john flicker's views..
> 
> 
> hope you will get...



allies lost more plane then axis but that does not make axis win war.rite.in 65 we lost more plane then pakistan but were they able to support your ground military?????
in 1971 chuck yeager said pakistani military will be in delhi in a week and last thing that i remember about 71 is formation of bangladesh.
in 84 airforce wasn't even used

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Black Widow

^^^^

Agree Hope "Mav3rick " can understand now that how Miyan saa'b save Pakistan face.. OK 

On Topic..Post No 276
Re: How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI
RCS doesn't matter for 4th Gen fighter


I saw some discussion on RCS here. Let me tell you one thing, RCS is useless for 4th gen fighter, NO matter what one does 4th gen fighter RCS can't become a Factor. F15, Su27, Su30MKI, Su35BM are still King of Sky.

One need special technique to kill these birds. These Birds are with Agile, Powerful, Advanced Radar, Avionics. These Birds are awesome... Simply Awesome.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-19.html#ixzz2142f2z6s


----------



## alimobin memon

Watch this

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## angeldude13

alimobin memon said:


> Watch this


i won't watch anything because last thing i know is that pakistani did not excepted the bodies of there dead soldiers and nawaz sharif ran to united states for peace because he knew the moment international border opens it will be adios amigos for both india and pakistan(nuke weapons).
if your country was that sure about winning war or was winning it already then why in first place nawaz ran to clinton for help.


----------



## Mav3rick

Black Widow said:


> Miyan saa'b saved Pakistan respect. Pakistan has no option other than get there soldier killed in Kargil. We were pounding Bombs over Pakistani Army. Pakistan official position was weak, They were not in position to ask PAF and Pak army in. Entire Northen Infantry was annihilated by M2000H.
> 
> India: We would have put everything we had.
> Pakistan: Only volentere soldier would have left to die, PAF and regular army couldn't have joined the war.
> Read me if you can...


 
Irony......An Indian posting what happened and what not!

A handful of fighters ***** your Military and Airforce combined for so many days without any support or backup. Imagine what the whole Pakistan Army and Pakistan Airforce would have done. Situation would have been very different if the premier of the country was someone with guts and not some one who did not even want to test the Nuclear devices because of US pressure.



KRAIT said:


> Do you even know why they didn't provided ground and air support?
> 
> It's all because they were intruders and if Pakistan provided cover to them, it would be direct support to terrorists according to whole world.
> 
> Pakistan couldn't provide the cover coz according to their statement there were no Pakistani soldiers at Kargil to begin with. Got the zest.
> 
> Also, Pakistan under-estimated India's response, they didn't know India will bring Bofors and air support.
> 
> *Check out a video of Najam Sethi who explains the entire Kargil war according to Pakistan's perspective*.


 
Was he a part of any plans or strategy or withdrawal etc.? If not then I suggest you go and watch documentaries and documents by the man who was smack in the middle of it all.....Musharraf. He's enough to silence all of you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Black Widow

Mav3rick said:


> Irony......An Indian posting what happened and what not!
> 
> A handful of fighters ***** your Military and Airforce combined for so many days without any support or backup.* Imagine what the whole Pakistan Army and Pakistan Airforce would have done.* Situation would have been very different if the premier of the country was someone with guts and not some one who did not even want to test the Nuclear devices because of US pressure.





Imagined, I have seen hole Pakistani Army in 1965, 1971 and 1947-8. Just go and sleep. Miyan sahab saved you from 71 like insult. I don't want to spoil this thread, if you really want to know more about Kargil, lets meet in Kargil thread....


Those who can fight like man, don't do proxy wars. 

@Topic: SU30MKI is great fighter... how Pakistan can counter it??
a) Good SAMs , SAMs are really dangerous for planes.
b) Get some good fighter like F15 or J11s.
c) Get F22 or F35...
d) F16 with AWECS : can't do any harm as India has better AWACS.

Having said that I will say that Noting is Impossible, On a good day, MiG21 can intercept most superior Fighters.


----------



## Mav3rick

angeldude13 said:


> i won't watch anything because last thing i know is that pakistani did not excepted the bodies of there dead soldiers and nawaz sharif ran to united states for peace because he knew the moment international border opens it will be adios amigos for both india and pakistan(nuke weapons).
> if your country was that sure about winning war or was winning it already then why in first place nawaz ran to clinton for help.


 
Watch the video and you will get honest answers to your repeated to death question. NS was forced by Clinton to force a withdrawal or face discontinuation of US support to his Government. It was India that begged US to force Pakistan to withdraw!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## angeldude13

Mav3rick said:


> Irony......An Indian posting what happened and what not!
> 
> A handful of fighters ***** your Military and Airforce combined for so many days without any support or backup. Imagine what the whole Pakistan Army and Pakistan Airforce would have done. Situation would have been very different if the premier of the country was someone with guts and not some one who did not even want to test the Nuclear devices because of US pressure.



oh god!are you trying to satisfy your ego here?we would have kicked your *** and blah blah blah.
check the position of indian army and pakistani army again.you people were having advantage of heights that's why you were able to kept the peaks for days.if international border would have been opened then you won't have been that lucky.but then nawaz sharif ran to clinton because of nuke factor.
talking about testing nuclear weapons????
sorry buddy last time i checked drones ain't killing my tribal people.if your mighty army is that good then ask them to kick them drones out of ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN


----------



## Black Widow

Mav3rick said:


> Watch the video and you will get honest answers to your repeated to death question. NS was forced by Clinton to force a withdrawal or face discontinuation of US support to his Government. It was India that begged US to force Pakistan to withdraw!




Yes yes You are right, I can see the Sky...









What you will take to come back to Topic?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mav3rick

Black Widow said:


> Imagined, I have seen hole Pakistani Army in 1965, 1971 and 1947-8. Just go and sleep. Miyan sahab saved you from 71 like insult. I don't want to spoil this thread, if you really want to know more about Kargil, lets meet in Kargil thread....
> 
> 
> Those who can fight like man, don't do proxy wars.



Just because Indians outnumber us like 7-8:1 and have more voices for their support it does not mean they can make a lie true! Your ***** were being handed to you by NLI (non regular Army) and freedom fighters without support of heavy equipment or air assets. You want to continue this in Kargil thread....lets do it!





Black Widow said:


> @Topic: SU30MKI is great fighter... how Pakistan can counter it??
> a) Good SAMs , SAMs are really dangerous for planes.
> b) Get some good fighter like F15 or J11s.
> c) Get F22 or F35...
> d) F16 with AWECS : can't do any harm as India has better AWACS.
> 
> Having said that I will say that Noting is Impossible, On a good day, MiG21 can intercept most superior Fighters.


 
You know what? Personally I think that automated stealth mini UCAV hunter killers are the best choice and the future. I hope PAF pays due attention to the future of air combat through unmanned automated UCAV's.


----------



## Black Widow

Mav3rick said:


> Just because Indians outnumber us like 7-8:1 and have more voices for their support it does not mean they can make a lie true! Your ***** were being handed to you by NLI (non regular Army) and freedom fighters without support of heavy equipment or air assets. You want to continue this in Kargil thread....lets do it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what? Personally I think that automated stealth mini UCAV hunter killers are the best choice and the future. I hope PAF pays due attention to the future of air combat through unmanned automated UCAV's.




First part, I won't comment as I don't want to go offtopic...

Second Part.... Funny, I will post your post in "Funny and Stupid thread" . Dude Till date no drone has made to kill manned fighters. My grandma can kill a drone.. By the time such technology (Fighter killer Drones) will discovered, SU30MKI will retire...


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

alimobin memon said:


> Watch this



To Bust your Bubble






*and thats what we did with invaders*






from 0:15



Mav3rick said:


> Just because Indians outnumber us like 7-8:1 and have more voices for their support it does not mean they can make a lie true! Your ***** were being handed to you by NLI (non regular Army) and freedom fighters without support of heavy equipment or air assets. You want to continue this in Kargil thread....lets do it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what? Personally I think that automated stealth mini UCAV hunter killers are the best choice and the future. I hope PAF pays due attention to the future of air combat through unmanned automated UCAV's.



Drones cant replace pilot skills anytime soon , They are used against ground targets, i wonder if Pakistan got enough fund for another project, atleast induct 150 Jf17's first 

Thread is goin offtopic! so no more offtopic from me

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## nawabo ke nawab

*close this thread* plzzzzzzzz


----------



## majesticpankaj

Mav3rick said:


> Watch the video and you will get honest answers to your repeated to death question. NS was forced by Clinton to force a withdrawal or face discontinuation of US support to his Government. *It was India that begged US to force Pakistan to withdraw*!



I can't believe you people still are so deluded...I hope Mods can educate you....


----------



## mylovepakistan

angeldude13 said:


> i won't watch anything because last thing i know is that pakistani did not excepted the bodies of there dead soldiers and nawaz sharif ran to united states for peace because he knew the moment international border opens it will be adios amigos for both india and pakistan(nuke weapons).
> if your country was that sure about winning war or was winning it already then why in first place nawaz ran to clinton for help.



DID YOU EVEN BOTHER TO WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO??


lol...you say pakistan did not accept bodies...check what musharaf is saying in the video..

and here is an official list of casualities..
which unfortunately you fan boys exaggerate to 4,000 WHEN TOTAL NUMBER OF STRENGTH NEVER EXCEEDED 5,000 ON PAKISTAN'S PART....LOL

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CLrg5u8F&key=0AsYdZaad5RJ0dDBRajBLQXVuc3ptb2pZd3BvSEdXNkE&hl=en&authkey=CLrg5u8F#gid=0


NOW COMING TO DIPLOMACY...LOL!!!

this is gonna hurt you...



News Headings


LOL! militarily it was pakistan's victory but DIPLOMATICALY it was INDIA's as india remained successful getting nawaz sharif under pressured...and i personally think he was too big of a coward who got pressurized by USA..


so mister, if india is winner why india went to USA for cease fire??? LOL!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kurup

^^^^^

Former Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif recently blamed the country&#8217;s former president General Pervez Musharraf for the Kargil misadventure.

Addressing the Pakistan Peoples Party &#8211; Nawaz (PML-N) general council meeting at his residence in Lahore, Sharif again reiterated that Kargil was planned and executed by the Pakistani Army and its chief Pervez Musharraf without his knowledge. I don&#8217;t want to go into the merits of former Pakistani PM&#8217;s claims that he was kept in dark about the entire episode.

The interesting bits in his marathon speech were about the visit he undertook to the US to resolve the crisis. and save the region from a nuclear war. *Sharif said that Musharraf pleaded with him to talk to then US President Bill Clinton to end the conflict.*

Different versions of what happened, who planned it, who knew about it, have already been put out by Musharraf, Sharif and many others in Pakistan.

One of the most interesting episode in the entire drama was Sharif&#8217;s US visit. A policy paper published by the University of Pennsylvania in 2002 throws light on one of the most important day in the South Asian history. The paper was written by Bruce Riedel, who was President Clinton&#8217;s Special Assistant and Senior Director for Near East and South Asia Affairs in the National Security Council at the White House. Riedel was present with the US President during his meeting with Nawaz Sharif.

According to the document, &#8220;July 4th, 1999 was probably the most unusual July 4th in American diplomatic history, certainly among the most eventful. President Clinton engaged in one of the most sensitive diplomatic high wire acts of any administration, successfully persuading Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to pull back Pakistani backed fighters from a confrontation with India that could threaten to escalate into a nuclear war between the world&#8217;s two newest nuclear powers. &#8220;

Sharif&#8217;s US visit during Kargil conflict


----------



## Tracy

mylovepakistan said:


> DID YOU EVEN BOTHER TO WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO??
> 
> 
> lol...you say pakistan did not accepted bodies...check what musharaf saying in the video..
> 
> and here is an official list of casualities..
> which unfortunately you fan boys exaggerate to 4,000 WHEN TOTAL NUMBER OF STRENGTH NEVER EXCEEDED 5,000 ON PAKISTAN'S PART....LOL
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CLrg5u8F&key=0AsYdZaad5RJ0dDBRajBLQXVuc3ptb2pZd3BvSEdXNkE&hl=en&authkey=CLrg5u8F#gid=0
> 
> 
> NOW COMING TO DIPLOMACY...LOL!!!
> 
> this is gonna hurt you...
> 
> 
> 
> News Headings
> 
> 
> LOL! militarily it was pakistan's victory but DIPLOMATICALY it was INDIA's as india remained successful getting nawaz sharif under pressured...and i personally think he was too big of a coward who got pressurized by USA..
> 
> 
> so mister, if india is winner why india went to USA for cease fire??? LOL!



Yes pakistan refused to accepted bodies1st, dont be ignorant! 
Pakistan even denied ISI and Pak Army role in kargil mess. FYI

Kargil was pakistan blunder, thousand of Pak armymen , trerrorist died! when IaF pounded them. 
Very humiliating


----------



## kurup

mylovepakistan said:


> DID YOU EVEN BOTHER TO WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO??
> 
> 
> lol...you say pakistan did not accept bodies...check what musharaf is saying in the video..
> 
> and here is an official list of casualities..
> which unfortunately you fan boys exaggerate to 4,000 WHEN TOTAL NUMBER OF STRENGTH NEVER EXCEEDED 5,000 ON PAKISTAN'S PART....LOL
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CLrg5u8F&key=0AsYdZaad5RJ0dDBRajBLQXVuc3ptb2pZd3BvSEdXNkE&hl=en&authkey=CLrg5u8F#gid=0
> 
> 
> NOW COMING TO DIPLOMACY...LOL!!!
> 
> this is gonna hurt you...
> 
> 
> 
> News Headings
> 
> 
> LOL! militarily it was pakistan's victory but DIPLOMATICALY it was INDIA's as india remained successful getting nawaz sharif under pressured...and i personally think he was too big of a coward who got pressurized by USA..
> 
> 
> so mister, if india is winner why india went to USA for cease fire??? LOL!



ISLAMABAD Aug. 16 . *The former Pakistan Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, claimed that more than 4,000 Pakistani troops and officials were killed in the Kargil conflict.*

While Mr. Sharif accused the Pakistan military in general and the then Army Chief, Pervez Musharraf, of undertaking the Kargil operations without the knowledge of his government, it is for the first time he has come out with concrete figures of the casualty on the Pakistani side.

The Pakistan Government had consistently denied charges of its involvement in the Kargil War and claimed it to be an operation conducted entirely by the Mujahideen (holy warriors). Several months later it indirectly acknowledged its participation by decorating some of its soldiers who died in the conflict.

In recent times, Mr. Sharif has been harping on Kargil as an example of failure of the military leadership of Gen. Musharraf.

Mr. Sharif, in exile in Saudi Arabia under a pact with the Musharraf regime, in a first ever on record interview some weeks back had threatened to "reveal all" about the "Kargil misadventure".

In his message to a rally organised by the Alliance for Restoration of Democracy (ARD) at Lahore on Thursday to demand the resignation of Gen. Musharraf as Army Chief and President, Mr. Sharif said the Kargil plan was prepared by Gen. Musharraf without the knowledge of his government.

The conflict had resulted in derailing the process of normalising relations between the two countries. Had it not been done, he claimed the Kashmir dispute would have been resolved long ago. Pakistan was defeated in Kargil, but as the Pakistan Prime Minister he covered it up by undertaking a visit to the United States, he said.

Mr. Sharif visited Washington and gave an undertaking to the Clinton Administration to withdraw Pakistan forces.

He argued that had he accepted defeat then, it would have demoralised the army and India would have got an opportunity to invade Pakistan.

He alleged that the mastermind of the Kargil operation, instead of accepting responsibility and resigning voluntarily, overthrew the elected government under the diktat from some "other quarters".

Mr. Sharif said Gen. Musharraf was behind the protests "staged" on the arrival of Mr. Vajpayee in 1999. (The Jamaat-e-Islami had organised street protests against the February 1999 visit of Mr. Vajpayee to Lahore).

Mr. Vajpayee was not given the honour equal to that accorded to the delegation of parliamentarians and journalists, which visited Pakistan a few days ago.

On problems faced by the country, he said they were the result of subversion of the 1973 Constitution and imposition of the Legal Framework Order, which incorporates the changes made by Gen. Musharraf.

"The enemy to the Constitution was more dangerous than the external enemy."

Former Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto, in her message appealed to the military to shun luxury and follow the steps of the late Gen. Tikka Khan, who, instead of trying to get plots and plazas, had led a simple life. They should also follow former Army chiefs like Gen. Waheed Kakar, Gen. Jehangir Karamat and the late Gen. Asif Nawaz who had not used their position to take over political power, she said.

Ms. Bhutto said that her party had held talks with the military leadership during the last three years to find a honourable way to establish a Constitutional government in the country, but the latter had not honoured its commitments. "They were not sincere with us as we had refused to endorse the military rule".

The ARD pledged on the 56th Independence Day of the country to fight a decisive battle to obviate the possibility of military takeovers in the future and to make Pakistan a country as envisioned by the Quaid-i-Azam, the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and PML-N leader Nawaz Sharif.

At a public meeting at the historic Mochi Gate, thousands of participants raised their hands in support when the leaders of various alliance groups resolved to banish dictatorship, throw away the LFO and bring back former Prime Ministers, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif. 

The Hindu : Over 4,000 soldiers killed in Kargil: Sharif


----------



## alimobin memon

Black Widow said:


> Yes yes You are right, I can see the Sky...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you will take to come back to Topic?



Lolx u call arse's the sky ... indians


----------



## Black Widow

alimobin memon said:


> Lolx u call arse's the sky ... indians




And you can't understand the sarcasm , poor creature , Can you tell me how Pakistan can counter Su30MKI???


----------



## danger007

@mylovepakistan: you can love pakistan.... but silly you are saying PA won in kargil ..... including your own military personal every one believes kargil is biggest blunder for Pak and it's army...... you are the first one who is saying PA won it.......... lolz.....

But the fact is pakistan tried to grab land as much as it can.... because IA emptied many army posts due to weather..... But Indian army and India reacted seriously... as India threaten full scale war and with the US pressure as PA is not in a stage to go another full scale war..... Pak gave up.....


----------



## IndianTiger

jf cnt counter su30.


----------



## danger007

Mav3rick said:


> Watch the video and you will get honest answers to your repeated to death question. NS was forced by Clinton to force a withdrawal or face discontinuation of US support to his Government. It was India that begged US to force Pakistan to withdraw!




India threaten TO LAUNCH FULL SCALE WAR..... every one knows who is BEGGED and STILL BEGGING...... better watch your words........ the thread is about su-30mki vs PAF..... come back to the topic...


----------



## mylovepakistan

octopus said:


> ISLAMABAD Aug. 16 . *The former Pakistan Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, claimed that more than 4,000 Pakistani troops and officials were killed in the Kargil conflict.*
> 
> While Mr. Sharif accused the Pakistan military in general and the then Army Chief, Pervez Musharraf, of undertaking the Kargil operations without the knowledge of his government, it is for the first time he has come out with concrete figures of the casualty on the Pakistani side.
> 
> The Pakistan Government had consistently denied charges of its involvement in the Kargil War and claimed it to be an operation conducted entirely by the Mujahideen (holy warriors). Several months later it indirectly acknowledged its participation by decorating some of its soldiers who died in the conflict.
> 
> In recent times, Mr. Sharif has been harping on Kargil as an example of failure of the military leadership of Gen. Musharraf.
> 
> Mr. Sharif, in exile in Saudi Arabia under a pact with the Musharraf regime, in a first ever on record interview some weeks back had threatened to "reveal all" about the "Kargil misadventure".
> 
> In his message to a rally organised by the Alliance for Restoration of Democracy (ARD) at Lahore on Thursday to demand the resignation of Gen. Musharraf as Army Chief and President, Mr. Sharif said the Kargil plan was prepared by Gen. Musharraf without the knowledge of his government.
> 
> The conflict had resulted in derailing the process of normalising relations between the two countries. Had it not been done, he claimed the Kashmir dispute would have been resolved long ago. Pakistan was defeated in Kargil, but as the Pakistan Prime Minister he covered it up by undertaking a visit to the United States, he said.
> 
> Mr. Sharif visited Washington and gave an undertaking to the Clinton Administration to withdraw Pakistan forces.
> 
> He argued that had he accepted defeat then, it would have demoralised the army and India would have got an opportunity to invade Pakistan.
> 
> He alleged that the mastermind of the Kargil operation, instead of accepting responsibility and resigning voluntarily, overthrew the elected government under the diktat from some "other quarters".
> 
> Mr. Sharif said Gen. Musharraf was behind the protests "staged" on the arrival of Mr. Vajpayee in 1999. (The Jamaat-e-Islami had organised street protests against the February 1999 visit of Mr. Vajpayee to Lahore).
> 
> Mr. Vajpayee was not given the honour equal to that accorded to the delegation of parliamentarians and journalists, which visited Pakistan a few days ago.
> 
> On problems faced by the country, he said they were the result of subversion of the 1973 Constitution and imposition of the Legal Framework Order, which incorporates the changes made by Gen. Musharraf.
> 
> "The enemy to the Constitution was more dangerous than the external enemy."
> 
> Former Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto, in her message appealed to the military to shun luxury and follow the steps of the late Gen. Tikka Khan, who, instead of trying to get plots and plazas, had led a simple life. They should also follow former Army chiefs like Gen. Waheed Kakar, Gen. Jehangir Karamat and the late Gen. Asif Nawaz who had not used their position to take over political power, she said.
> 
> Ms. Bhutto said that her party had held talks with the military leadership during the last three years to find a honourable way to establish a Constitutional government in the country, but the latter had not honoured its commitments. "They were not sincere with us as we had refused to endorse the military rule".
> 
> The ARD pledged on the 56th Independence Day of the country to fight a decisive battle to obviate the possibility of military takeovers in the future and to make Pakistan a country as envisioned by the Quaid-i-Azam, the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and PML-N leader Nawaz Sharif.
> 
> At a public meeting at the historic Mochi Gate, thousands of participants raised their hands in support when the leaders of various alliance groups resolved to banish dictatorship, throw away the LFO and bring back former Prime Ministers, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif.
> 
> The Hindu : Over 4,000 soldiers killed in Kargil: Sharif



OH PLEASE KID,dont be a FAN BOY..

i have posted above an official LIST..

and NAWAZ is too big of coward thats why he got pressurized by USA when INDIA begged USA to pressurize pakistan...LOL!

as for 4,000 read again what i said...

MUSHARAF said pakistan had to suffer 470 casualities..

and i dont need to tell you that ARMY CHIEF WAS MUSHARAF..

in the case if ur eyes could not see the list here it is..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CLrg5u8F&key=0AsYdZaad5RJ0dDBRajBLQXVuc3ptb2pZd3BvSEdXNkE&hl=en&authkey=CLrg5u8F#gid=0

and how can be 4,000 dead when the total stregth never exceeded 5,000?????????

LOL!

and here is KARGIL DIPLOMACY..THE REAL FACE OF INDIAN FAKE VICTORY..


Pull out from Kargil, USA tells Pak

SINGAPORE, July 25 (PTI, UNI) &#8212; The USA today asked Pakistan to pull out its forces from the remaining areas of Kargil and immediately stop acts of terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir, showing for the first time Washington&#8217;s greater understanding of India&#8217;s concern on cross-border militancy.

US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who held an hour-long meeting here with External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh, told a crowded press conference that Pakistan should "follow through with its commitment to withdraw from the remaining portions along Kargil" as also push for the Lahore process and called for "positive thinking" on the Kashmir issue.

"I have to put it on record. The response to cross-border terrorism was much more forthcoming and understanding than I had witnessed earlier," Mr Jaswant Singh told reporters separately.

During her press conference, Ms Albright referred to the recent massacres of innocent people by Pakistan-backed militants in J and K and said "acts of terrorism must stop immediately because such actions make the Kashmir conflict more, not less, difficult to resolve."

The External Affairs Minister said "there is a much greater understanding by the USA about India&#8217;s security concerns, that India in fact is a stabilising factor in Asia."

Mr Jaswant Singh, who had nearly 15 minutes of one-to-one parleys with Ms Albright in her hotel suite before the delegation level discussions, asserted that Indo-Pak dialogue could be resumed only after Islamabad undertook "concrete" steps to restore trust breached by it.

"We talked about the importance of resuming the Lahore process, the general importance of moving forward on the non-proliferation issues as well as having a positive thinking on some movement on the Kashmir issue itself," Ms Albright said.

Though Ms Albright spoke of the importance of resuming the Lahore process, Mr Jaswant Singh made it clear that India, as initiator of the dialogue, was committed to it but stressed that Islamabad would have to first reaffirm the inviolability and sanctity of the Line of Control (LoC) and stop abetting and aiding cross-border terrorism.

On Ms Albright&#8217;s remarks that there was need to move forward on the non-proliferation issues, Mr Jaswant Singh said there was no change in India&#8217;s position on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) and other nuclear-related issues.

However, the question of signing the CTBT "can be now taken up only by the new government after the elections," he said.

He said India had agreed to the US proposal of joining a newly established "community of democracies" aimed at evolving a mechanism of how these countries could help each other in strengthening the system.

During his day-long hectic schedule, Mr Jaswant Singh held a 55-minute meeting with Chinese Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan and met his counterparts from Thailand, Vietnam and Singapore.

Ms Albright, who termed her meeting with Mr Jaswant Singh as "good", said they discussed various aspects of the South Asian situation.

The Indian minister described the talks as "positive, constructive and wide-ranging", and ruled out the third-party mediation in the Indo-Pak disputes saying these had to be resolved bilaterally.

Indian officials said the two leaders agreed to move towards qualitatively raising the level of the Indo-US ties.

An early visit to India by US President Bill Clinton also came up during the discussions.

Mr Jaswant Singh said India stood by its offer made last year at the ASEAN meetings in Manila about signing a protocol respecting the South East Asia nuclear weapons free zone (SENWFZ).

Meanwhile, referring to other issues at the press conference, Ms Albright warned ASEAN countries recovering from two years of economic upheaval against declaring "victory too soon&#8217;&#8217; and urged them to keep up reforms to restore diminished confidence in the region.

"We are encouraged by signs that the worst of the Asian financial crisis is behind us,&#8217;&#8217; she told a news conference prior to the ASEAN security forum meeting on Monday. "It is vital, however, that neither those in nor outside the region declare victory too soon,&#8217;&#8217; she said.

Ms Albright cited the need for major economies in addition to the USA to pursue "pro-growth policies&#8217;&#8217; and an "agenda to open markets and increase two-way trade&#8217;&#8217; aimed at helping the battered countries restore investor confidence.

Stressing the enormous stake of the USA in "a stable, democratic and prosperous Asia," Ms Albright noted problems threatening the region&#8217;s security must be resolved. She cited escalating tensions in the Korean peninsula and the disputed South China Sea.

She said human rights violations in Myanmar pose a security threat to the region and should be discussed among members of ASEAN.


News Headings



octopus said:


> ISLAMABAD Aug. 16 . *The former Pakistan Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, claimed that more than 4,000 Pakistani troops and officials were killed in the Kargil conflict.*
> 
> While Mr. Sharif accused the Pakistan military in general and the then Army Chief, Pervez Musharraf, of undertaking the Kargil operations without the knowledge of his government, it is for the first time he has come out with concrete figures of the casualty on the Pakistani side.
> 
> The Pakistan Government had consistently denied charges of its involvement in the Kargil War and claimed it to be an operation conducted entirely by the Mujahideen (holy warriors). Several months later it indirectly acknowledged its participation by decorating some of its soldiers who died in the conflict.
> 
> In recent times, Mr. Sharif has been harping on Kargil as an example of failure of the military leadership of Gen. Musharraf.
> 
> Mr. Sharif, in exile in Saudi Arabia under a pact with the Musharraf regime, in a first ever on record interview some weeks back had threatened to "reveal all" about the "Kargil misadventure".
> 
> In his message to a rally organised by the Alliance for Restoration of Democracy (ARD) at Lahore on Thursday to demand the resignation of Gen. Musharraf as Army Chief and President, Mr. Sharif said the Kargil plan was prepared by Gen. Musharraf without the knowledge of his government.
> 
> The conflict had resulted in derailing the process of normalising relations between the two countries. Had it not been done, he claimed the Kashmir dispute would have been resolved long ago. Pakistan was defeated in Kargil, but as the Pakistan Prime Minister he covered it up by undertaking a visit to the United States, he said.
> 
> Mr. Sharif visited Washington and gave an undertaking to the Clinton Administration to withdraw Pakistan forces.
> 
> He argued that had he accepted defeat then, it would have demoralised the army and India would have got an opportunity to invade Pakistan.
> 
> He alleged that the mastermind of the Kargil operation, instead of accepting responsibility and resigning voluntarily, overthrew the elected government under the diktat from some "other quarters".
> 
> Mr. Sharif said Gen. Musharraf was behind the protests "staged" on the arrival of Mr. Vajpayee in 1999. (The Jamaat-e-Islami had organised street protests against the February 1999 visit of Mr. Vajpayee to Lahore).
> 
> Mr. Vajpayee was not given the honour equal to that accorded to the delegation of parliamentarians and journalists, which visited Pakistan a few days ago.
> 
> On problems faced by the country, he said they were the result of subversion of the 1973 Constitution and imposition of the Legal Framework Order, which incorporates the changes made by Gen. Musharraf.
> 
> "The enemy to the Constitution was more dangerous than the external enemy."
> 
> Former Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto, in her message appealed to the military to shun luxury and follow the steps of the late Gen. Tikka Khan, who, instead of trying to get plots and plazas, had led a simple life. They should also follow former Army chiefs like Gen. Waheed Kakar, Gen. Jehangir Karamat and the late Gen. Asif Nawaz who had not used their position to take over political power, she said.
> 
> Ms. Bhutto said that her party had held talks with the military leadership during the last three years to find a honourable way to establish a Constitutional government in the country, but the latter had not honoured its commitments. "They were not sincere with us as we had refused to endorse the military rule".
> 
> The ARD pledged on the 56th Independence Day of the country to fight a decisive battle to obviate the possibility of military takeovers in the future and to make Pakistan a country as envisioned by the Quaid-i-Azam, the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and PML-N leader Nawaz Sharif.
> 
> At a public meeting at the historic Mochi Gate, thousands of participants raised their hands in support when the leaders of various alliance groups resolved to banish dictatorship, throw away the LFO and bring back former Prime Ministers, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif.
> 
> The Hindu : Over 4,000 soldiers killed in Kargil: Sharif



OH PLEASE KID,dont be a FAN BOY..

i have posted above an official LIST..

and NAWAZ is too big of coward thats why he got pressurized by USA when INDIA begged USA to pressurize pakistan...LOL!

as for 4,000 read again what i said...

MUSHARAF said pakistan had to suffer 470 casualities..

and i dont need to tell you that ARMY CHIEF WAS MUSHARAF..

in the case if ur eyes could not see the list here it is..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CLrg5u8F&key=0AsYdZaad5RJ0dDBRajBLQXVuc3ptb2pZd3BvSEdXNkE&hl=en&authkey=CLrg5u8F#gid=0

and how can be 4,000 dead when the total stregth never exceeded 5,000?????????

LOL!

and here is KARGIL DIPLOMACY..THE REAL FACE OF INDIAN FAKE VICTORY..


Pull out from Kargil, USA tells Pak

SINGAPORE, July 25 (PTI, UNI)  The USA today asked Pakistan to pull out its forces from the remaining areas of Kargil and immediately stop acts of terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir, showing for the first time Washingtons greater understanding of Indias concern on cross-border militancy.

US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who held an hour-long meeting here with External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh, told a crowded press conference that Pakistan should "follow through with its commitment to withdraw from the remaining portions along Kargil" as also push for the Lahore process and called for "positive thinking" on the Kashmir issue.

"I have to put it on record. The response to cross-border terrorism was much more forthcoming and understanding than I had witnessed earlier," Mr Jaswant Singh told reporters separately.

During her press conference, Ms Albright referred to the recent massacres of innocent people by Pakistan-backed militants in J and K and said "acts of terrorism must stop immediately because such actions make the Kashmir conflict more, not less, difficult to resolve."

The External Affairs Minister said "there is a much greater understanding by the USA about Indias security concerns, that India in fact is a stabilising factor in Asia."

Mr Jaswant Singh, who had nearly 15 minutes of one-to-one parleys with Ms Albright in her hotel suite before the delegation level discussions, asserted that Indo-Pak dialogue could be resumed only after Islamabad undertook "concrete" steps to restore trust breached by it.

"We talked about the importance of resuming the Lahore process, the general importance of moving forward on the non-proliferation issues as well as having a positive thinking on some movement on the Kashmir issue itself," Ms Albright said.

Though Ms Albright spoke of the importance of resuming the Lahore process, Mr Jaswant Singh made it clear that India, as initiator of the dialogue, was committed to it but stressed that Islamabad would have to first reaffirm the inviolability and sanctity of the Line of Control (LoC) and stop abetting and aiding cross-border terrorism.

On Ms Albrights remarks that there was need to move forward on the non-proliferation issues, Mr Jaswant Singh said there was no change in Indias position on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) and other nuclear-related issues.

However, the question of signing the CTBT "can be now taken up only by the new government after the elections," he said.

He said India had agreed to the US proposal of joining a newly established "community of democracies" aimed at evolving a mechanism of how these countries could help each other in strengthening the system.

During his day-long hectic schedule, Mr Jaswant Singh held a 55-minute meeting with Chinese Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan and met his counterparts from Thailand, Vietnam and Singapore.

Ms Albright, who termed her meeting with Mr Jaswant Singh as "good", said they discussed various aspects of the South Asian situation.

The Indian minister described the talks as "positive, constructive and wide-ranging", and ruled out the third-party mediation in the Indo-Pak disputes saying these had to be resolved bilaterally.

Indian officials said the two leaders agreed to move towards qualitatively raising the level of the Indo-US ties.

An early visit to India by US President Bill Clinton also came up during the discussions.

Mr Jaswant Singh said India stood by its offer made last year at the ASEAN meetings in Manila about signing a protocol respecting the South East Asia nuclear weapons free zone (SENWFZ).

Meanwhile, referring to other issues at the press conference, Ms Albright warned ASEAN countries recovering from two years of economic upheaval against declaring "victory too soon and urged them to keep up reforms to restore diminished confidence in the region.

"We are encouraged by signs that the worst of the Asian financial crisis is behind us, she told a news conference prior to the ASEAN security forum meeting on Monday. "It is vital, however, that neither those in nor outside the region declare victory too soon, she said.

Ms Albright cited the need for major economies in addition to the USA to pursue "pro-growth policies and an "agenda to open markets and increase two-way trade aimed at helping the battered countries restore investor confidence.

Stressing the enormous stake of the USA in "a stable, democratic and prosperous Asia," Ms Albright noted problems threatening the regions security must be resolved. She cited escalating tensions in the Korean peninsula and the disputed South China Sea.

She said human rights violations in Myanmar pose a security threat to the region and should be discussed among members of ASEAN.


News Headings

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## KRAIT

self delete


----------



## danger007

^^^ Because MUSHARAF planned kargil..... He didn't imagined the result will be in our favor..... so he claimed low causalities..... 

any one can see who is fan boy here...


----------



## kurup

mylovepakistan said:


> OH PLEASE KID,dont be a FAN BOY..
> 
> i have posted above an official LIST..
> 
> and NAWAZ is too big of coward thats why he got pressurized by USA when INDIA begged USA to pressurize pakistan...LOL!
> 
> as for 4,000 read again what i said...
> 
> MUSHARAF said pakistan had to suffer 470 casualities..
> 
> and i dont need to tell you that ARMY CHIEF WAS MUSHARAF..
> 
> in the case if ur eyes could not see the list here it is..
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CLrg5u8F&key=0AsYdZaad5RJ0dDBRajBLQXVuc3ptb2pZd3BvSEdXNkE&hl=en&authkey=CLrg5u8F#gid=0
> 
> and how can be 4,000 dead when the total stregth never exceeded 5,000?????????
> 
> LOL!
> 
> and here is KARGIL DIPLOMACY..THE REAL FACE OF INDIAN FAKE VICTORY..
> 
> 
> Pull out from Kargil, USA tells Pak
> 
> SINGAPORE, July 25 (PTI, UNI) &#8212; The USA today asked Pakistan to pull out its forces from the remaining areas of Kargil and immediately stop acts of terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir, showing for the first time Washington&#8217;s greater understanding of India&#8217;s concern on cross-border militancy.
> 
> US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who held an hour-long meeting here with External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh, told a crowded press conference that Pakistan should "follow through with its commitment to withdraw from the remaining portions along Kargil" as also push for the Lahore process and called for "positive thinking" on the Kashmir issue.
> 
> "I have to put it on record. The response to cross-border terrorism was much more forthcoming and understanding than I had witnessed earlier," Mr Jaswant Singh told reporters separately.
> 
> During her press conference, Ms Albright referred to the recent massacres of innocent people by Pakistan-backed militants in J and K and said "acts of terrorism must stop immediately because such actions make the Kashmir conflict more, not less, difficult to resolve."
> 
> The External Affairs Minister said "there is a much greater understanding by the USA about India&#8217;s security concerns, that India in fact is a stabilising factor in Asia."
> 
> Mr Jaswant Singh, who had nearly 15 minutes of one-to-one parleys with Ms Albright in her hotel suite before the delegation level discussions, asserted that Indo-Pak dialogue could be resumed only after Islamabad undertook "concrete" steps to restore trust breached by it.
> 
> "We talked about the importance of resuming the Lahore process, the general importance of moving forward on the non-proliferation issues as well as having a positive thinking on some movement on the Kashmir issue itself," Ms Albright said.
> 
> Though Ms Albright spoke of the importance of resuming the Lahore process, Mr Jaswant Singh made it clear that India, as initiator of the dialogue, was committed to it but stressed that Islamabad would have to first reaffirm the inviolability and sanctity of the Line of Control (LoC) and stop abetting and aiding cross-border terrorism.
> 
> On Ms Albright&#8217;s remarks that there was need to move forward on the non-proliferation issues, Mr Jaswant Singh said there was no change in India&#8217;s position on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) and other nuclear-related issues.
> 
> However, the question of signing the CTBT "can be now taken up only by the new government after the elections," he said.
> 
> He said India had agreed to the US proposal of joining a newly established "community of democracies" aimed at evolving a mechanism of how these countries could help each other in strengthening the system.
> 
> During his day-long hectic schedule, Mr Jaswant Singh held a 55-minute meeting with Chinese Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan and met his counterparts from Thailand, Vietnam and Singapore.
> 
> Ms Albright, who termed her meeting with Mr Jaswant Singh as "good", said they discussed various aspects of the South Asian situation.
> 
> The Indian minister described the talks as "positive, constructive and wide-ranging", and ruled out the third-party mediation in the Indo-Pak disputes saying these had to be resolved bilaterally.
> 
> Indian officials said the two leaders agreed to move towards qualitatively raising the level of the Indo-US ties.
> 
> An early visit to India by US President Bill Clinton also came up during the discussions.
> 
> Mr Jaswant Singh said India stood by its offer made last year at the ASEAN meetings in Manila about signing a protocol respecting the South East Asia nuclear weapons free zone (SENWFZ).
> 
> Meanwhile, referring to other issues at the press conference, Ms Albright warned ASEAN countries recovering from two years of economic upheaval against declaring "victory too soon&#8217;&#8217; and urged them to keep up reforms to restore diminished confidence in the region.
> 
> "We are encouraged by signs that the worst of the Asian financial crisis is behind us,&#8217;&#8217; she told a news conference prior to the ASEAN security forum meeting on Monday. "It is vital, however, that neither those in nor outside the region declare victory too soon,&#8217;&#8217; she said.
> 
> Ms Albright cited the need for major economies in addition to the USA to pursue "pro-growth policies&#8217;&#8217; and an "agenda to open markets and increase two-way trade&#8217;&#8217; aimed at helping the battered countries restore investor confidence.
> 
> Stressing the enormous stake of the USA in "a stable, democratic and prosperous Asia," Ms Albright noted problems threatening the region&#8217;s security must be resolved. She cited escalating tensions in the Korean peninsula and the disputed South China Sea.
> 
> She said human rights violations in Myanmar pose a security threat to the region and should be discussed among members of ASEAN.
> 
> 
> News Headings
> 
> 
> 
> OH PLEASE KID,dont be a FAN BOY..
> 
> i have posted above an official LIST..
> 
> and NAWAZ is too big of coward thats why he got pressurized by USA when INDIA begged USA to pressurize pakistan...LOL!
> 
> as for 4,000 read again what i said...
> 
> MUSHARAF said pakistan had to suffer 470 casualities..
> 
> and i dont need to tell you that ARMY CHIEF WAS MUSHARAF..
> 
> in the case if ur eyes could not see the list here it is..
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CLrg5u8F&key=0AsYdZaad5RJ0dDBRajBLQXVuc3ptb2pZd3BvSEdXNkE&hl=en&authkey=CLrg5u8F#gid=0
> 
> and how can be 4,000 dead when the total stregth never exceeded 5,000?????????
> 
> LOL!
> 
> and here is KARGIL DIPLOMACY..THE REAL FACE OF INDIAN FAKE VICTORY..
> 
> 
> Pull out from Kargil, USA tells Pak
> 
> SINGAPORE, July 25 (PTI, UNI) &#8212; The USA today asked Pakistan to pull out its forces from the remaining areas of Kargil and immediately stop acts of terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir, showing for the first time Washington&#8217;s greater understanding of India&#8217;s concern on cross-border militancy.
> 
> US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who held an hour-long meeting here with External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh, told a crowded press conference that Pakistan should "follow through with its commitment to withdraw from the remaining portions along Kargil" as also push for the Lahore process and called for "positive thinking" on the Kashmir issue.
> 
> "I have to put it on record. The response to cross-border terrorism was much more forthcoming and understanding than I had witnessed earlier," Mr Jaswant Singh told reporters separately.
> 
> During her press conference, Ms Albright referred to the recent massacres of innocent people by Pakistan-backed militants in J and K and said "acts of terrorism must stop immediately because such actions make the Kashmir conflict more, not less, difficult to resolve."
> 
> The External Affairs Minister said "there is a much greater understanding by the USA about India&#8217;s security concerns, that India in fact is a stabilising factor in Asia."
> 
> Mr Jaswant Singh, who had nearly 15 minutes of one-to-one parleys with Ms Albright in her hotel suite before the delegation level discussions, asserted that Indo-Pak dialogue could be resumed only after Islamabad undertook "concrete" steps to restore trust breached by it.
> 
> "We talked about the importance of resuming the Lahore process, the general importance of moving forward on the non-proliferation issues as well as having a positive thinking on some movement on the Kashmir issue itself," Ms Albright said.
> 
> Though Ms Albright spoke of the importance of resuming the Lahore process, Mr Jaswant Singh made it clear that India, as initiator of the dialogue, was committed to it but stressed that Islamabad would have to first reaffirm the inviolability and sanctity of the Line of Control (LoC) and stop abetting and aiding cross-border terrorism.
> 
> On Ms Albright&#8217;s remarks that there was need to move forward on the non-proliferation issues, Mr Jaswant Singh said there was no change in India&#8217;s position on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) and other nuclear-related issues.
> 
> However, the question of signing the CTBT "can be now taken up only by the new government after the elections," he said.
> 
> He said India had agreed to the US proposal of joining a newly established "community of democracies" aimed at evolving a mechanism of how these countries could help each other in strengthening the system.
> 
> During his day-long hectic schedule, Mr Jaswant Singh held a 55-minute meeting with Chinese Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan and met his counterparts from Thailand, Vietnam and Singapore.
> 
> Ms Albright, who termed her meeting with Mr Jaswant Singh as "good", said they discussed various aspects of the South Asian situation.
> 
> The Indian minister described the talks as "positive, constructive and wide-ranging", and ruled out the third-party mediation in the Indo-Pak disputes saying these had to be resolved bilaterally.
> 
> Indian officials said the two leaders agreed to move towards qualitatively raising the level of the Indo-US ties.
> 
> An early visit to India by US President Bill Clinton also came up during the discussions.
> 
> Mr Jaswant Singh said India stood by its offer made last year at the ASEAN meetings in Manila about signing a protocol respecting the South East Asia nuclear weapons free zone (SENWFZ).
> 
> Meanwhile, referring to other issues at the press conference, Ms Albright warned ASEAN countries recovering from two years of economic upheaval against declaring "victory too soon&#8217;&#8217; and urged them to keep up reforms to restore diminished confidence in the region.
> 
> "We are encouraged by signs that the worst of the Asian financial crisis is behind us,&#8217;&#8217; she told a news conference prior to the ASEAN security forum meeting on Monday. "It is vital, however, that neither those in nor outside the region declare victory too soon,&#8217;&#8217; she said.
> 
> Ms Albright cited the need for major economies in addition to the USA to pursue "pro-growth policies&#8217;&#8217; and an "agenda to open markets and increase two-way trade&#8217;&#8217; aimed at helping the battered countries restore investor confidence.
> 
> Stressing the enormous stake of the USA in "a stable, democratic and prosperous Asia," Ms Albright noted problems threatening the region&#8217;s security must be resolved. She cited escalating tensions in the Korean peninsula and the disputed South China Sea.
> 
> She said human rights violations in Myanmar pose a security threat to the region and should be discussed among members of ASEAN.
> 
> 
> News Headings



What official list ???

An army which calls their own soldiers as terrorists and disowes them , can easily fake the list of their dead men.....

PA admitted the role of their men after a decade , so wait a decade and you will get the actual death toll ........


----------



## mylovepakistan

octopus said:


> What official list ???
> 
> An army which calls their own soldiers as terrorists and disowes them , can easily fake the list of their dead men.....
> 
> PA admitted the role of their men after a decade , so wait a decade and you will get the actual death toll ........




LOL! 
who CALLED own soldiers terrorists?

it was NAWAZ who after going USA returned with having ORDERS of retreating what INDIA begged USA for....LOL!

so one can easily assume..who can speak lie on media...obviously it can only be nawaz..not the army chief,

as for pakistan admitting their men AFTER A DECADE...hmmmmmm...

now check this video..this video is DECADE OLD video shows otherwise what you fan boys claim..

Naik Gul-e-Khandaan - Kargil War (1999) Hero - Pakistan Army - YouTube

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Funny people. Someone says that official sources say that 470 were killed and only official line should be believed. 

Then reply comes official sources also did not accept their dead for a decade. So he brings up a video to show that official sources were lying and the dead were pakistani soldiers. Now believe whoever u want to.


----------



## Viper0011.

Neuro said:


> When they kickdu? 65, 71 , 84, 99? care 2 explain



Looking at your post count (341) , it tells me you didn't turn 18 yesterday. I am more than SURE you know when the a*s got kicked. The details are available in different air force magazines and forums that I've read. If you still want to play naive and innocent, open up a new thread for that and I'd love to provide some input per my little knowledge. There will be people like Gambit and retired air force personnel from PAF that will also chime in, I am sure.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mylovepakistan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Funny people. Someone says that official sources say that 470 were killed and only official line should be believed.
> 
> Then reply comes official sources also did not accept their dead for a decade. So he brings up a video to show that official sources were lying and the dead were pakistani soldiers. Now believe whoever u want to.



hey kid stay away..

the video is just bursting ur bubble off,
that PAKISTAN ACCEPTED BODIES AFTER DECADE,

while the video itself is DECADE old...LOL!




octopus said:


> You own army ...........
> 
> During the initial stages of the war, *Pakistan blamed the fighting entirely on independent Kashmiri insurgents*, but documents left behind by casualties and later statements by Pakistan's Prime Minister and Chief of Army Staff showed involvement of Pakistani paramilitary forces,[14][15][16] led by General Ashraf Rashid.
> 
> 
> 
> The interesting bits in his marathon speech were about the visit he undertook to the US to resolve the crisis. and save the region from a nuclear war. Sharif said that *Musharraf pleaded with him to talk to then US President Bill Clinton to end the conflict.*
> 
> Looks like it was pakistan that pleaded to US to intervene ..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Videos shows nothing..........
> 
> The only thing that matters is that India captured Kargil and your army and terrorists you sent ran off .....



well,ur still going with ur link ?
ok wait,here what the link also saying

According to the document, &#8220;July 4th, 1999 was probably the most unusual July 4th in American diplomatic history, certainly among the most eventful. President Clinton engaged in one of the most sensitive diplomatic high wire acts of any administration, successfully persuading pakistani prime minister nawaz sharif to pull back Pakistani backed fighters from a confrontation with India that could threaten to escalate into a nuclear war between the world&#8217;s two newest nuclear powers. &#8220;


NOW WHAT ABOUT THIS ???????

News Headings



majesticpankaj said:


> Look what Musharaf is saying on record
> 
> *Pak army was not involved in Kargil: Musharra*
> 
> Pak army was not involved in Kargil: Musharraf - Video | The Times of India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After listening this..I want to hear pakistani fanboys....





interesting..since you believe his words so why dont you believe the next words too,that say some thing like this..

i have problems with nawaz sharif,and his comments have never been true about kargil...

however ur video has got nothing to do with KARGIL WAR...what actualy happened in kargil war,,

besides that official list,would you like to asnwer me..

how can 4,000 be DEAD when the number on pakistan army side never exceeded 5,000 ???

as far as MAKING OF FAKE LIST GOES,

DONT LET ME DEBUNK WHAT UR ARMY HAS TOLD THE WORLD ABOUT LAUGWELA,ABOUT SIACHAN,ABOUT PNS GHAZI....LOL!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mylovepakistan

now what about this???


BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Coffin scandal rages in India


LOL!!! seems like there were too much indians dead,hence coffin scandal needed to be raged..LOL!


DO ALL OF YOU FAN BOYS KNOW?..

when ur government decided to celeberate victory of kargil

ur opposition said..." do you want us to celeberate our defeat" ?? LOL!


and what about gen kishan paul's comments?


----------



## majesticpankaj

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I am accepting the fact that the dead bodies of your soldiers were left to rot in kargil because you refused to accept them. What else do u want me to accept sir?



this was such a shameful act....even shameful than the four coups...


----------



## mjnaushad

majesticpankaj said:


> this was such a shameful act....even shameful than the four coups...


----------



## Fireurimagination

mylovepakistan said:


> now what about this???
> 
> 
> BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Coffin scandal rages in India
> 
> 
> LOL!!! seems like there were too much indians dead,hence coffin scandal needed to be raged..LOL!
> 
> 
> DO ALL OF YOU FAN BOYS KNOW?..
> 
> when ur government decided to celeberate victory of kargil
> 
> ur opposition said..." do you want us to celeberate our defeat" ?? LOL!
> 
> 
> and what about gen kishan paul's comments?



Yes our Soldiers fought for our country and many laid down their lives, they were Soldiers not 'intruders' of 'terrorists' as Pakistani Soldiers were labeled, your establishment didn't even have guts for a whole decade to accept them as Soldiers, accept their bodies and give them proper burial, go check the Pakistan's map where is Kargil, well within your borders right? So why run away from your own territory


----------



## mylovepakistan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> What about Nawaz Sharif's comments?



and what about that official list
dont bring now that video of urs since it has got nothing to do with casualities on pakistani side,

now before you jump and say pakistanis can make fake list..

i would like to tell you that dont let me debunk what ur army told to world about laungwela,about siachan etc ...!


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

mylovepakistan said:


> and what about that official list
> dont bring now that video of urs since it has got nothing to do with casualities on pakistani side,
> 
> now before you jump and say pakistanis can make fake list..
> 
> i would like to tell you that dont let me debunk what ur army told to world about laungwela,about siachan etc ...!



So basically u are saying that u have no argument left and u will continue to say that only official list and your video is correct and everything else is incorrect just because it suits u??????


----------



## mylovepakistan

Fireurimagination said:


> Yes our Soldiers fought for our country and many laid down their lives, they were Soldiers not 'intruders' of 'terrorists' as Pakistani Soldiers were labeled, your establishment didn't even have guts for a whole decade to accept them as Soldiers, accept their bodies and give them proper burial, go check the Pakistan's map where is Kargil, well within your borders right? So why run away from your own territory




we ran because after failing to recapture those peaks india eventually went to USA begging to intervene,and then nawaz went to USA,
USA asked him to retreat from those peaks...and hence we retreated...LOL!


----------



## mjnaushad

Shadow_Hunter said:


> So basically u are saying that u have no argument left and u will continue to say that only official list and your video is correct and everything else is incorrect just because it suits u??????




And you will keep saying the opposite because it suits you? Well thats what you guys do....Keep it up


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

mjnaushad said:


> And you will keep saying the opposite because it suits you? Well thats what you guys do....Keep it up



I am only quoting your former prime minister. The man whom you chose to lead your country. Why should I believe you instead of him? He has more credibility than you.


----------



## dearone4u_22

mylovepakistan said:


> now what about this???
> 
> 
> BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Coffin scandal rages in India
> 
> 
> LOL!!! seems like there were too much indians dead,hence coffin scandal needed to be raged..LOL!
> 
> 
> DO ALL OF YOU FAN BOYS KNOW?..
> 
> when ur government decided to celeberate victory of kargil
> 
> ur opposition said..." do you want us to celeberate our defeat" ?? LOL!
> 
> 
> and* what about gen kishan paul's comments?*



It was A defeat According to them, Coz we Lost so many Soldier ........Just recapturing our own Ground.....Acc to them It would have been a victory, if Pakistani would have been Pushed back from All the Disputed territory for once and for all Seeing India had a World Support on This Retaliatory Action....
India Din't make the Use of Situation......Hence its is considered as A moral defeat ....

But I m pretty Sure Pakistan will provide another chance when NAmo is the India PM then we will talk




watch from 1.35 
Transcript:-" It was a Tactical Victory in a sense We regain Back our ground..Regained territory we have lost...But we lost 587 precious Soldier lives *whatever we gained from this war has been not been Consolidated *Politically ,Diplomatically And above All *Militarily *Considering whole Army division was Moved"


----------



## mjnaushad

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I am only quoting your former prime minister. The man whom you chose to lead your country. Why should I believe you instead of him? He has more credibility than you.



And he also have vast business interest with Indians.......

Your credibility of Pakistanis is very picky.... Anything which suites you is good otherwise its crap.... A general knows more of war than civilian PM. And the general said "it was victory" but thats not credible isn't it? But if other general says it was defeat you'll surely go to cash it up....


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

mjnaushad said:


> And he also have vast business interest with Indians.......
> 
> Your credibility of Pakistanis is very picky.... Anything which suites you is good otherwise its crap.... A general knows more of war than civilian PM. And the general said "it was victory" but thats not credible isn't it? But if other general says it was defeat you'll surely go to cash it up....



Are you talking about the same general who is charged with multiple criminal conducts and living in exile in UK because he fears that he will be arrested if he comes back?


----------



## Last Hope

*Moderators, start issuing 2-points worth infractions.*


----------



## mjnaushad

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Are you talking about the same general who is charged with multiple criminal conducts and living in exile in UK because he fears that he will be arrested if he comes back?



Internal political matters are different issue.altogether



Last Hope said:


> *Moderators, start issuing 2-points worth infractions.*



Starting with people obsessed with begging.


----------



## lightoftruth

pakistan denies their military history because their isnt much be to be proud off rather than few battlefied incidents .its natural for them, they learn it from their leaders.

itself being a usa poodle in the subcontinent accusing us wont make a turn around in your ill efficiency and impotency to take right decisions.


----------



## mjnaushad

lightoftruth said:


> pakistan denies their military history because their isnt much be to be proud off rather than few battlefied incidents .its natural for them, they learn it from their leaders.
> 
> itself being a usa poodle in the subcontinent accusing us wont make a turn around in your* ill efficiency and impotency* to take right decisions.



 ..... More brainwashed Indians

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lightoftruth

mjnaushad said:


> More* brainwashed* Indians


 common pakistanis


----------



## Mav3rick

Black Widow said:


> First part, I won't comment as I don't want to go offtopic...
> 
> Second Part.... Funny, I will post your post in "Funny and Stupid thread" . Dude Till date no drone has made to kill manned fighters. My grandma can kill a drone.. By the time such technology (Fighter killer Drones) will discovered, SU30MKI will retire...


 
I thought we were talking about plans for the future.


----------



## Storm Force

Its taken PAF 9 years to find a counter to the su30mki threat.

ie THE FIRST SU30MKI arrived in 2003 today the IAF field 150+ 

In those 9 years PAF answer is 36 X JFT mk1 & 18 X BLOCK F16/52.

If PAF are looking to counter IAF biggest threat then SU30MKI is no longer the BIG threat that you need planning for

PAF needs to LOOK at near term future threats these include

48 mig29k with Indian Navy & the soon to be inducted rafale F3 X 126

imo both the MIG29K & especially the RAFALE F3 are a quatum leap over the su30mki threat.

_________________

BY THE WAY i dont i think 150 su30mki versis 50 JFT & F16/52 is fair fight..... regardless of RCS or radar cover over PAF air space


----------



## Windjammer

In an otherwise unrelated thread, some members are ranting cheap banter on the Kargil conflict.
Here is an extract from Brian Cloughley's article shedding light on the Kargil debacle, which he wrote soon after the conflict circa 2000.



> Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made to provide that assurance. Kargil was disastrous for Pakistan in worldwide political terms, and was an important public relations coup for the Indian government, both internally (in the run-up to the election), and internationally. But militarily it was a shambles for India whose brave but ill-prepared soldiers suffered gravely and would have sustained even heavier casualties had the conflict continued. The prime minister of Pakistan was ordered by the president of the United States to withdraw his troops from a successful military operation and this was done in time to save the Vajpayee government from the wave of criticism that would have swamped it had the confrontation not been stopped.
> 
> There is no question about the courage of members of the Indian armed forces, but they are badly-equipped, have no support from government save when political points can be scored, and are not prepared for war, either tactically or in its higher direction. The army is as desperately short of 'teeth arms' officers as the air force is short of pilots. Senior officers seem to devote an inordinate amount of time seeking legal redress for alleged injustices, and there are over 1,000 cases waiting resolution, which is not a sign of a contented defence force--and a discontented defence force is unlikely to be an efficient one. Further, the services have to put up with unworkable equipment and systems foisted upon them by a defence research organisation that is an international joke. (This is slightly disconcerting when one considers that it is these people who are responsible for developing nuclear weapons systems.)

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Thorough Pro

Windjammer said:


> In an otherwise unrelated thread, some members are ranting cheap banter on the Kargil conflict.
> Here is an extract from Brian Cloughley's article shedding light on the Kargil debacle, which he wrote soon after the conflict circa 2000.


 
You just shut them (indians) off. they live an ignorant life and believe only what is fed by state controlled media.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## lkozhi

Conceal Carry said:


> You just shut them (indians) off. they live an ignorant life and believe only what is fed by state controlled media.


 
our state controlled media is doordarshan which no one watches
rest of media controls state 

What is the PAF opinion about how sukhois will be used? I guess they think it will be used toward the later stage of war to bring it to a finish. Downing of such planes will be morale eater for us. So I think we wont risk it initially.


----------



## Rain

Mav3rick said:


> While reading your post I have to agree that such type of thinking is very lame....I mean the type of thinking that believes Pakistani Generals assumed that India would not go full on despite Pakistan squeezing their throats in Kargil. Kargil was a political debacle and not a military one! Actually, the plan was so brilliant that it is hard for some to digest even today. Everything was on plan until NS bowed down to his masters call.
> 
> What else do you think was the contention b/w NS and the Military?



I am not here to defend Nawaz nor i want to discuss Kargil related issues, it was an example that how faulty our thinking can become, whn we plan wars or conflicts? you should talk about the theme not example, sorry to see many senoir members are talking on subject which is not related to topic of thread.

PS: PAF was not Ready for Conflict, Navy was not ready for Conflict and Politiccal set up was naive an unprepared for Conflict, wht makes genreals think that invading Kargil at that was an excellent Idea, in My Opinion It was a brilliant idea but ill timed and ill planed. Full Stop on Kargil for now.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mr.Hunt

UNBIASED ANALYSIS

KLJ - 7 Radar On JF-17 Has a DETECTION range of 120 kms for 5 m2 RCS Target [Claimed by Senior Members but officially it is between 90 - 100 kms]. TRACKING range is 80 - 85 % detection range. Therefore @ 85% the tracking range of KLJ-7 for 5 m2 RCS is 102 kms. The pilot has to track the opponent to fire a BVR missile.
The radar can track 10 targets in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets. 

N011M has a Search/Detection range of 350 kms [ 30 m2 RCS ] and a TRACKING range of 200 kms for targets with 10 m2 RCS.
Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. Its a high power radar.

Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2. 

So a Su-30MKI will TRACK JF-17 from around 150 kms where as JF-17 can track Su-30 at around 105 - 108 kms [85% of detection range]. 

Su-30MKI's radar can SIMULTANEOUS operate in Multiple modes where as KLJ-7 LACKS this capability.

JF-17 carries 4 SD-10 BVR Missiles with Range of 70 kms.
Su-30MKI Carries 8 R-77 BVR missiles with 90 kms range. 

And I am talking about the present situation. Please do not start about future updates. Looking forward for a sensible reply.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## alimobin memon

Mr.Hunt said:


> UNBIASED ANALYSIS
> 
> KLJ - 7 Radar On JF-17 Has a DETECTION range of 120 kms for 5 m2 RCS Target [Claimed by Senior Members but officially it is between 90 - 100 kms]. TRACKING range is 80 - 85 % detection range. Therefore @ 85% the tracking range of KLJ-7 for 5 m2 RCS is 102 kms. The pilot has to track the opponent to fire a BVR missile.
> The radar can track 10 targets in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.
> 
> N011M has a Search/Detection range of 350 kms [ 30 m2 RCS ] and a TRACKING range of 200 kms for targets with 10 m2 RCS.
> Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. Its a high power radar.
> 
> Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2.
> 
> So a Su-30MKI will TRACK JF-17 from around 150 kms where as JF-17 can track Su-30 at around 105 - 108 kms [85% of detection range].
> 
> Su-30MKI's radar can SIMULTANEOUS operate in Multiple modes where as KLJ-7 LACKS this capability.
> 
> JF-17 carries 4 SD-10 BVR Missiles with Range of 70 kms.
> Su-30MKI Carries 8 R-77 BVR missiles with 90 kms range.
> 
> And I am talking about the present situation. Please do not start about future updates. Looking forward for a sensible reply.



Klj7V2 is updated one , all jf17 carry or been updated to carry klj7v2 with 130 not 120


----------



## Mr.Hunt

alimobin memon said:


> Klj7V2 is updated one , all jf17 carry or been updated to carry klj7v2 with 130 not 120


 
Even 130 kms wont make any difference ..... you have to accept that N011M Bars outclasses ur KLJ-7 v1 or v2 easily & it was inducted in 2003 where as u are now inducting v2 ..... more then 9 years later & even then it is much inferior to N011M Bars & Su-30MKI combination.

JF-17 was never designed to take on Su-30MKI's ..... it was built to replace Mirage & F-7 In PAF at affordable cost.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

Yes JF-17 is cost effective fighter.... Not to perform at the level F-16's..... purely some fan boyz giving it over hype.....


----------



## alimobin memon

danger007 said:


> Yes JF-17 is cost effective fighter.... Not to perform at the level F-16's..... purely some fan boyz giving it over hype.....



God bless you ... all pakistani can say now to you guys , actually jf17 was made to counter the spitfire of World war 2


----------



## danger007

alimobin memon said:


> God bless you ... all pakistani can say now to you guys , actually jf17 was made to counter the spitfire of World war 2



lol ignorant comment again.... i said it is cost effective fighter..... but it can't perform at the level of F-16's... ok


----------



## alimobin memon

danger007 said:


> lol ignorant comment again.... i said it is cost effective fighter.....




You also said not to perform at the level of f16's .... World's most ignorant comment comes out to be your's


----------



## danger007

alimobin memon said:


> You also said not to perform at the level of f16's .... World's most ignorant comment comes out to be your's



lolz... ok JF-17 can outperform F-16's... are you happy.... is your ego satisfied...


----------



## Skull and Bones

alimobin memon said:


> You also said not to perform at the level of f16's .... World's most ignorant comment comes out to be your's



Nor in payload, nor in TWR, nor in avionics....still ought to perform at the level of F-16. That's what i call delusional grandeur.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mylovepakistan

Mr.Hunt said:


> UNBIASED ANALYSIS
> 
> KLJ - 7 Radar On JF-17 Has a DETECTION range of 120 kms for 5 m2 RCS Target [Claimed by Senior Members but officially it is between 90 - 100 kms]. TRACKING range is 80 - 85 % detection range. Therefore @ 85% the tracking range of KLJ-7 for 5 m2 RCS is 102 kms. The pilot has to track the opponent to fire a BVR missile.
> The radar can track 10 targets in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.
> 
> N011M has a Search/Detection range of 350 kms [ 30 m2 RCS ] and a TRACKING range of 200 kms for targets with 10 m2 RCS.
> Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. Its a high power radar.
> 
> Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2.
> 
> So a Su-30MKI will TRACK JF-17 from around 150 kms where as JF-17 can track Su-30 at around 105 - 108 kms [85% of detection range].
> 
> Su-30MKI's radar can SIMULTANEOUS operate in Multiple modes where as KLJ-7 LACKS this capability.
> 
> JF-17 carries 4 SD-10 BVR Missiles with Range of 70 kms.
> Su-30MKI Carries 8 R-77 BVR missiles with 90 kms range.
> 
> And I am talking about the present situation. Please do not start about future updates. Looking forward for a sensible reply.



GOOD..but you seem to be forgetting that BARS has 140-160 km "detection" range against a F-16 block 15 which has 5m2 RCS,

check the vayu sena tripod website that says a MIG 21 for instance can be " detected" at 135 km...

so now calculate 85%( according to you tracking range is 85% of detection )

its comes out to be 114.5 KMs...

so tracking range for a 3M2 rcs is 114.5 KMs..

while you have calculated KLJ's " tracking " range as 102 km against 5m2..

so now calculate against a 10m2 RCS...it gives nearly 130 km value...

so still JF 17 can detect and track MKI earlier...


----------



## danger007

mylovepakistan said:


> GOOD..but you seem to be forgetting that BARS has 140-160 km "detection" range against a F-16 block 15 which has 5m2 RCS,
> 
> check the vayu sena tripod website that says a MIG 21 for instance can be " detected" at 135 km...
> 
> so now calculate 85%( according to you tracking range is 85% of detection )
> 
> its comes out to be 114.5 KMs...
> 
> so tracking range for a 3M2 rcs is 114.5 KMs..
> 
> while you have calculated KLJ's " tracking " range as 102 km against 5m2..
> 
> so now calculate against a 10m2 RCS...it gives nearly 130 km value...
> 
> so still JF 17 can detect and track MKI earlier...



lolz................. The KLJ-7 is an X-band airborne fire-control radar (FCR) uses a mechanically-steered slotted array antenna. The KLJ-7 has multiple modes, both beyond-visual-range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance modes and a robust anti-jamming capability. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.


Frequency : X-band
A mechanically-steered slotted array antenna
14 Operational Modes
Range more than 100 km
Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode
Reliability:
MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure): 220 hours
MTTR (Mean Time To Recovery): 0.5 hours
Weight less than 120 kg
Composition
Antenna Unit
Receiver Unit
Transmitter Unit
Processor Unit
Power Supply Unit
Auxiliary Transmitter Unit
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex


----------



## mylovepakistan

danger007 said:


> lolz................. The KLJ-7 is an X-band airborne fire-control radar (FCR) uses a mechanically-steered slotted array antenna. The KLJ-7 has multiple modes, both beyond-visual-range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance modes and a robust anti-jamming capability. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.
> 
> 
> Frequency : X-band
> A mechanically-steered slotted array antenna
> 14 Operational Modes
> Range more than 100 km
> Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode
> Reliability:
> MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure): 220 hours
> MTTR (Mean Time To Recovery): 0.5 hours
> Weight less than 120 kg
> Composition
> Antenna Unit
> Receiver Unit
> Transmitter Unit
> Processor Unit
> Power Supply Unit
> Auxiliary Transmitter Unit
> Pakistan Aeronautical Complex




LOLzzzz...

check the kanwa report that was saying after tweaking, the detection range has jumped upto 130 km against a 5m2 target...lolzzz


----------



## danger007

^^^^ typo 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ndian-subcontinent-bvr-arena.html#post3207519

visit that thread....


----------



## alimobin memon

I wonder if Su30MKI is soo good that it outperforms Ef2000 and , F15E in exercise , a moron would go for French Rafale


----------



## mylovepakistan

danger007 said:


> ^^^^ typo
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ndian-subcontinent-bvr-arena.html#post3207519
> 
> visit that thread....



are you moron?

this old article i have read million times,

while kanwa interview came recently...


----------



## danger007

mylovepakistan said:


> are you moron?
> 
> this old article i have read million times,
> 
> while kanwa interview came recently...



mind your language...... first of all...... 


nothing change instance by instance.... radar can be improved but with limitations.....


----------



## Jungibaaz

Mr.Hunt said:


> UNBIASED ANALYSIS
> 
> KLJ - 7 Radar On JF-17 Has a DETECTION range of 120 kms for 5 m2 RCS Target [Claimed by Senior Members but officially it is between 90 - 100 kms]. TRACKING range is 80 - 85 % detection range. Therefore @ 85% the tracking range of KLJ-7 for 5 m2 RCS is 102 kms. The pilot has to track the opponent to fire a BVR missile.
> The radar can track 10 targets in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.
> 
> N011M has a Search/Detection range of 350 kms [ 30 m2 RCS ] and a TRACKING range of 200 kms for targets with 10 m2 RCS.
> Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. Its a high power radar.
> 
> Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2.
> 
> So a Su-30MKI will TRACK JF-17 from around 150 kms where as JF-17 can track Su-30 at around 105 - 108 kms [85% of detection range].
> 
> Su-30MKI's radar can SIMULTANEOUS operate in Multiple modes where as KLJ-7 LACKS this capability.
> 
> JF-17 carries 4 SD-10 BVR Missiles with Range of 70 kms.
> Su-30MKI Carries 8 R-77 BVR missiles with 90 kms range.
> 
> And I am talking about the present situation. Please do not start about future updates. Looking forward for a sensible reply.



Why have you left it at 105-108km?
Remember you've none too accurately calculated that for a target 5m^2.

Armed MKI will pull off a bare minimum of 10m^2 likely even bigger.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Jungibaaz said:


> Why have you left it at 105-108km?
> Remember you've none too accurately calculated that for a target 5m^2.
> 
> Armed MKI will pull off a bare minimum of 10m^2 likely even bigger.


 
agree it should be around 15m^2.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kurup

alimobin memon said:


> I wonder if Su30MKI is soo good that it outperforms Ef2000 and , F15E in exercise , a moron would go for French Rafale



MKI is mainly used for air superiority while RAfale is omni-role........


----------



## Black Widow

Jungibaaz said:


> Why have you left it at 105-108km?
> Remember you've none too accurately calculated that for a target 5m^2.
> 
> Armed MKI will pull off a bare minimum of 10m^2 likely even bigger.




So what??? Even F15 has same RCS? How RCS matter for 4th gen fighter??? Do you think missile fired from 200 KM can bring 4.5++ gen fighter down???

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Black Widow

alimobin memon said:


> I wonder if Su30MKI is soo good that it outperforms Ef2000 and , F15E in exercise , a moron would go for French Rafale




Ok Son let me tell you one story. It was year 99, Red force betrayed Blue team by backstabbing them. Red team sent terrorists (Later world knew they were red soldiers) To grab Blue team Spawn point.

Blue team send its Mirage 2000H to Bomb the red team, M2000H was afraid of F16s, so MiG29 were escorting them. Rafael don't need such kind of escorting.. Rafael can take care of F16s and Ground the Red team (If red team again misbehave)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## black_jack

mylovepakistan said:


> are you moron?
> 
> this old article i have read million times,
> 
> while kanwa interview came recently...



according to your logic US should have only F 22, China should have only j10


----------



## Mr.Hunt

Jungibaaz said:


> Why have you left it at 105-108km?
> Remember you've none too accurately calculated that for a target 5m^2.
> 
> Armed MKI will pull off a bare minimum of 10m^2 likely even bigger.


 
85 % of 120 is 102 kms ..... that is the tracking range of JF-17 for 5 m2 RCS. For 10 m2 RCS The Detection Range of KLJ-7 will be around 135 - 140 kms. KLJ-7 is not a high power radar. So as the Target range increases, The tracking range % gets reduced due to loss of power & disturbance in reception of reflected wave. Therefore consider 77-80 % as tracking range for 10 m2 RCS target. Even at 80% of 140kms the tracking range would be 112 kms. My previous calculation was based on 77% & so was not wrong. 

& PESA Radar [N011M] are hard to jam then MSA [KLJ-7]. So in a dense electronic jamming environment the performance of JF-17 will fall drastically when compared to Su-30MKI.

JF-17 Are inferior of Su-30MKI but they have provided PAF with a cost efficient solution for replacement of mirages & f-7. And JF-17 Outperforms & Is a generation ahead of the aircraft's it is replacing. 

The most important thing is the STRATEGY of the user.


----------



## alimobin memon

Mr.Hunt said:


> 85 % of 120 is 102 kms ..... that is the tracking range of JF-17 for 5 m2 RCS. For 10 m2 RCS The Detection Range of KLJ-7 will be around 135 - 140 kms. KLJ-7 is not a high power radar. So as the Target range increases, The tracking range % gets reduced due to loss of power & disturbance in reception of reflected wave. Therefore consider 77-80 % as tracking range for 10 m2 RCS target. Even at 80% of 140kms the tracking range would be 112 kms. My previous calculation was based on 77% & so was not wrong.
> 
> & PESA Radar [N011M] are hard to jam then MSA [KLJ-7]. So in a dense electronic jamming environment the performance of JF-17 will fall drastically when compared to Su-30MKI.
> 
> JF-17 Are inferior of Su-30MKI but they have provided PAF with a cost efficient solution for replacement of mirages & f-7. And JF-17 Outperforms & Is a generation ahead of the aircraft's it is replacing.
> 
> The most important thing is the STRATEGY of the user.



OH Hunt bhai , 130 is effective range detection range has nothing to do with detection range , we are talking about effective range jf17 detection range has increased too


----------



## Mr.Hunt

mylovepakistan said:


> GOOD..but you seem to be forgetting that BARS has 140-160 km "detection" range against a F-16 block 15 which has 5m2 RCS,
> 
> check the vayu sena tripod website that says a MIG 21 for instance can be " detected" at 135 km...
> 
> so now calculate 85%( according to you tracking range is 85% of detection )
> 
> its comes out to be 114.5 KMs...
> 
> so tracking range for a 3M2 rcs is 114.5 KMs..
> 
> while you have calculated KLJ's " tracking " range as 102 km against 5m2..
> 
> so now calculate against a 10m2 RCS...it gives nearly 130 km value...
> 
> so still JF 17 can detect and track MKI earlier...



The 3rd para of my post.

"Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2."

140 - 160 kms is the Tracking Range. N011M Bars Has a tracking range of 200 kms for a 10 m2 RCS target. You have to understand the difference between detection & tracking. The detection range of N011M Bars is 350 kms for 30 m2 RCS target.

Su-30 MKI can TRACK a F-16 Block 52 at 140 kms. Block 52 RCS is around 1.5 m2. 

My intention is not to over hype the capability of any plane but to just bring out the actual facts.


----------



## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/94948-radar-ranges-different-fighters-7.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/20908-rcs-different-fighters-8.html#post2912749


----------



## mylovepakistan

Mr.Hunt said:


> The 3rd para of my post.
> 
> "Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2."
> 
> 140 - 160 kms is the Tracking Range. N011M Bars Has a tracking range of 200 kms for a 10 m2 RCS target. You have to understand the difference between detection & tracking. The detection range of N011M Bars is 350 kms for 30 m2 RCS target.
> 
> Su-30 MKI can TRACK a F-16 Block 52 at 140 kms. Block 52 RCS is around 1.5 m2.
> 
> My intention is not to over hype the capability of any plane but to just bring out the actual facts.



so would you like to tell me who told you 200 km tracking range is for 10M2 target???

ITS MAXIMUM....MIND IT...!!!!!!!!!


and here you can check what vayu sena is saying..now do ur calculations and i will see how you do say that MKI can detect and track earlier..

The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

this say some thing like this...

"


> For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km


"


so mr.hunt before accusing me of being an ignorant about difference in tracking range and detection range...look above...!


----------



## Mr.Hunt

mylovepakistan said:


> so would you like to tell me who told you 200 km tracking range is for 10M2 target???
> 
> ITS MAXIMUM....MIND IT...!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> and here you can check what vayu sena is saying..now do ur calculations and i will see how you do say that MKI can detect and track earlier..
> 
> The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena
> 
> this say some thing like this...
> 
> ""
> 
> 
> so mr.hunt before accusing me of being an ignorant about difference in tracking range and detection range...look above...!


 

Sir, Thats wat m saying ..... my numbers are same as those in ur link. 200 is the max tracking range. & my calculations are correct. West uses a standard 3 m2 rcs while describing the range of radar while Russia uses 5 m2 or 10 m2. For Example ZHUK ME on MIG-29 has 120 kms range against 5 m2 RCS target. 
200 kms is the max tracking but my calculations are based on the tracking range for F-16 Block 52. Block 30/40 can be tracked by BARS at 160 kms.
"Su-30 can Track F-16 Blk 52 [RCS 1.5m2] at 140 kms."


----------



## abdulbarijan

Mr.Hunt said:


> Sir, Thats wat m saying ..... my numbers are same as those in ur link. 200 is the max tracking range. & my calculations are correct. West uses a standard 3 m2 rcs while describing the range of radar while Russia uses 5 m2 or 10 m2. For Example ZHUK ME on MIG-29 has 120 kms range against 5 m2 RCS target.
> 200 kms is the max tracking but my calculations are based on the tracking range for F-16 Block 52. Block 30/40 can be tracked by BARS at 160 kms.
> *"Su-30 can Track F-16 Blk 52 [RCS 1.5m2] at 140 kms."*



Some times man.... don't take it personally i just like to be funny ..... and sarcastic ...

So what your saying is

MKI can *TRACK* an F-16 sized target at 140-160 Km* (assuming its RCS is 1.5m2)* (and thats what u assume Vayusena doesn't disclose the RCS)

Dont forget the Vayusena link says *"SEARCH"* not *"TRACK"*

However the same Vayusena link says a Mig-21 sized target *(3m2)* is detected at *135 Km.*

*
Only in India u will find a radar that according to u tracks lower RCS jets at bigger ranges and detects jets with comparative high RCS's at lower ranges...if that made any sense .....




*



> For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km




On a serious note, the F-16* after the block 30's or was it 40's have 1.2m2 RCS*, the ones before that is *F-16 A/B's have RCS greater and are often assumed to be 5m2*.So it makes quite sense if you take it that way

140-160 odd Km search range for 5m2 (old f-16's RCS)
and 135 Km for 3m2 (Mig-21)

hope that helped u two...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## mylovepakistan

SELF DELETED


----------



## abdulbarijan

Mr.Hunt said:


> The 3rd para of my post.
> 
> "Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block* F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. *RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2."
> 
> 140 - 160 kms is the Tracking Range. N011M Bars Has a tracking range of 200 kms for a 10 m2 RCS target. You have to understand the difference between detection & tracking. The detection range of N011M Bars is 350 kms for 30 m2 RCS target.
> 
> Su-30 MKI can TRACK a* F-16 Block 52 at 140 kms.* Block 52 RCS is around 1.5 m2.
> 
> *My intention is not to over hype the capability of any plane but to just bring out the actual facts*.



U mean actual *facts by editing ur earlier posts so that no one can catch u later....*

Please you didn't even know about the earlier block's having higher RCS and even if you edit your last post the quote stays the same in my post, so every one can easily see what you posted earlier....

however 

even if you mention 160 km range for 5m2
and 140 Km for later blocks...it does not add up...

in fact its impossible..

*cuz even if u take 160 Km the range for 5m2

the range for 1.2m2 (later blocks) comes out to be somewhere near 120Km*


----------



## alimobin memon

At the other hand Pakistan Airforce has already found that RCS of Jf17 less than that of Block 52+


----------



## mylovepakistan

Mr.Hunt said:


> Sir, Thats wat m saying ..... my numbers are same as those in ur link. 200 is the max tracking range. & my calculations are correct. West uses a standard 3 m2 rcs while describing the range of radar while Russia uses 5 m2 or 10 m2. For Example ZHUK ME on MIG-29 has 120 kms range against 5 m2 RCS target.
> 200 kms is the max tracking but my calculations are based on the tracking range for F-16 Block 52. Block 30/40 can be tracked by BARS at 160 kms.
> "Su-30 can Track F-16 Blk 52 [RCS 1.5m2] at 140 kms."




TRANSITION TRANSITION...

first off,dont teach me these baby things..

now check what you said in ur previous post..



Mr.Hunt said:


> N011M Bars Has a tracking range of 200 kms for a 10 m2 RCS target.



and now it is maximum....LOL!!!



Mr.Hunt said:


> 200 is the max tracking range






Mr.Hunt said:


> my numbers are same as those in ur link.




WHAT???? really???

get a set of two eyes....LOL!


----------



## Skull and Bones

alimobin memon said:


> At the other hand Pakistan Airforce has already found that RCS of Jf17 less than that of Block 52+



Any official link from PAC or PAF?


----------



## Mr.Hunt

mylovepakistan said:


> SELF DELETED


 
N011M Bars has 2 Variants ..... 4 kw & 6 kw. Almost all websites give the figures for the 4 kw variant. Su-30MKI has the 6 kw variant & hence the range slightly differs. This is the reason tat the IAF wil just upgrade & not change the radar in MKI's 1st upgrade. In a training exercise against F-16 Blk 52 of Republic of Singapore Air Force, Su-30 MKI could track F-16 Blk 52 at 143 - 147 kms. The mki was acting in AWAC role & would then direct Mig-21 Bison to take on the F-16 formation. F-16 Excelled at low level ground attack due to superior performance of SAR mode of its radar.



Skull and Bones said:


> Any official link from PAC or PAF?



Damm ..... u did a big mistake. Now all the inside sources wil come out & give their own opinions ...... never ask for a SABOOT from them. The dont search but create their own.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## alimobin memon

Skull and Bones said:


> Any official link from PAC or PAF?


I am sorry My friend ask any1 here they will tell u  , I dont have any source save so that i can show u ask any1 here


----------



## Skull and Bones

alimobin memon said:


> My friend ask any1 here they will tell u



Anyone here doesn't work for PAC or PAF, i want official figures for what you claim.


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

alimobin memon said:


> I wonder if Su30MKI is soo good that it outperforms Ef2000 and , F15E in exercise , a *moron* would go for French Rafale



Genius! Your Comment shows How Little you know! just another fanboy noob
Su 30Mki is ''Heavy'' Air superiority Fighter! unlike Rafael a Medium class fighter (*M*MRCA). 
only a Moron underestimates rafale in terms of situational awareness ,a2a and a2G capabilities.


----------



## abdulbarijan

Mr.Hunt said:


> N011M Bars has 2 Variants ..... 4 kw & 6 kw. Almost all websites give the figures for the 4 kw variant. Su-30MKI has the 6 kw variant & hence the range slightly differs. This is the reason tat the IAF wil just upgrade & not change the radar in MKI's 1st upgrade. In a training exercise against F-16 Blk 52 of Republic of Singapore Air Force, Su-30 MKI could track F-16 Blk 52 at 143 - 147 kms. The mki was acting in AWAC role & would then direct Mig-21 Bison to take on the F-16 formation. F-16 Excelled at low level ground attack due to superior performance of SAR mode of its radar.
> 
> 
> 
> Damm ..... u did a big mistake. Now all the inside sources wil come out & give their own opinions ...... never ask for a SABOOT from them. The dont search but create their own.




Aha...i found it...this is from *aero India 2011*







Su-30MKI Acquisition and Upgrade - IDP Sentinel

The URL I gave has the pic, u can see the high resolution version there too...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

alimobin memon said:


> I am Moron ok and you are ? Mega Moron , just for medium combat fighter u by three times more expensive fighter than SU30MKI



No, it's the same reason why US operates F-18s and F-16s even after having F-15s. I guess they all are moronic noobs, only you have some IQ to brag about.


----------



## Skull and Bones

alimobin memon said:


> Bro mentioned the same thing twice. proof you are moron



It's the slow net speed/internet congestion which causes double post, educate yourself troll boy.


----------



## farhan_9909

in short

j11b is the only answer i see so far

only 2 squarden
or
2billions usd


----------



## Skull and Bones

farhan_9909 said:


> in short
> 
> j11b is the only answer i see so far
> 
> only 2 squarden
> or
> 2billions usd



Why only two squadrons?


----------



## farhan_9909

we cant afford more

aswell future paf/iaf war will be a very limited one

so odd 40 is good for paf


----------



## alimobin memon

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Poor English ? I never Said you are a moron!
> Genius! Let me enlighten you
> today a Mki Cost nearly 100million per peice so by your logic rafale costs 300million ?
> 
> How little you know!



Are you kidding me 100 million dollars ? even your indian friends won't agree here , it is 32 million dollar check it anywhere bro you are wrong


----------



## Skull and Bones

alimobin memon said:


> Are you kidding me 100 million dollars ? even your indian friends won't agree here , it is 32 million dollar check it anywhere bro you are wrong



$40 million dollar as of 1997, check the calender now to know what date is it.


----------



## alimobin memon

Skull and Bones said:


> $40 million dollar as of 1997, check the calender now to know what date is it.


 ok my figures were old so it is indeed 40 million dollar not 100mn mentioned by wet shirt


----------



## Skull and Bones

alimobin memon said:


> ok my figures were old so it is indeed 40 million dollar not 100mn mentioned by wet shirt



Have you ever heard of the term price inflation? And check the date of it's valuation again.


----------



## Mav3rick

black_jack said:


> according to your logic US should have only F 22, China should have only j10


 
Well, I believe the US would replace all other Air Superiority or Multi Role Combat Aircraft with the F-22 if they could 'afford' to do so. They are replacing almost everything with F-35 because they cannot afford to procure 1000's of F-22's!



Mr.Hunt said:


> 85 % of 120 is 102 kms ..... that is the tracking range of JF-17 for 5 m2 RCS. For 10 m2 RCS The Detection Range of KLJ-7 will be around 135 - 140 kms. KLJ-7 is not a high power radar. So as the Target range increases, The tracking range % gets reduced due to loss of power & disturbance in reception of reflected wave. Therefore consider 77-80 % as tracking range for 10 m2 RCS target. Even at 80% of 140kms the tracking range would be 112 kms. My previous calculation was based on 77% & so was not wrong.
> 
> & PESA Radar [N011M] are hard to jam then MSA [KLJ-7]. So in a dense electronic jamming environment the performance of JF-17 will fall drastically when compared to Su-30MKI.
> 
> *JF-17 Are inferior of Su-30MKI but they have provided PAF with a cost efficient solution for replacement of mirages & f-7. And JF-17 Outperforms & Is a generation ahead of the aircraft's it is replacing. *
> 
> The most important thing is the STRATEGY of the user.


 
If the highlighted part is indeed correct, then what's the point of replacing 1 obsolete jet with another when neither can compete with the opponent? Think about it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

alimobin memon said:


> Are you kidding me 100 million dollars ? even your indian friends won't agree here , it is 32 million dollar check it anywhere bro you are wrong



Hi Memon,
No i am not kidding, but you are ill informed and know very little related to aviation field. i'll stop replying to you now, unless you post something constructive. 

Lets get back to topic now! thread is already way offtopic! 

How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI ??



farhan_9909 said:


> in short
> 
> j11b is the only answer i see so far
> 
> only 2 squarden
> or
> 2billions usd



"J11b is the only answer for Su30mki" ? can you be more specific ?



Skull and Bones said:


> Why only two squadrons?



Limited funds probably


----------



## Jungibaaz

Black Widow said:


> So what??? Even F15 has same RCS? How RCS matter for 4th gen fighter??? Do you think missile fired from 200 KM can bring 4.5++ gen fighter down???



No need to get so defensive.
It seems I offended you somehow.

I merely pointed out a mistake in the post I quoted.
perhaps you didn't pay attention to that.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> Well, I believe the US would replace all other Air Superiority or Multi Role Combat Aircraft with the F-22 if they could 'afford' to do so. They are replacing almost everything with F-35 because they cannot afford to procure 1000's of F-22's!
> 
> 
> 
> If the highlighted part is indeed correct, then what's the point of replacing 1 obsolete jet with another when neither can compete with the opponent? Think about it.


 
imagin you got trouble with a guy who is having an ak47 all you got is a knife with you. somebody offered you a pistol which you can take immediately or you can wait for an m4 which you will get few months later. isn't it wise for you to catch hold of that pistol first and and wait for the m4 when it's available.


----------



## alimobin memon

Jf17 was supposed to be a jet fighter to replace 3rd generation fleet , but after 1998 it eventual became the new fighter with 4+ generation avionics and airframe the new canopy , new airframe material , more composites than steel and RAM at critical positions ... Later jf17 was offered GRIFO S7 which was Originally Designed to replace APG 66 of F16 , However China came up with the better solution name klj7 version derived from KLJ10 however when it was introduced PAC was looking at the RC400 of MIRAGE 2000 for Jf17 but later PAC tested KLJ7 and approved it however neither was RC400 later offered so KLj7 was the solution .. Pakistan also introduced the DEEC Electronic warfare suite to jf17 with an excellent Radar warning receiver to the program, Radar warning receiver is believed to have a good range against enemy aircraft radar locking to the jf17. Later it was announced that SD10A and later upgraded to B are being procured by PAF , for jf17 some claimed SD10A had 70km range while'st B had over 100 but for the Effective usage of SD10B JF17 Radar needed to be effective , KLJ7v2 introduced already and was announced that it is easy to upgrade klj7 to V2 and so are updated let me tell you that in EW suite of jf17 contains Radar warning reciever that can help to know the enemy aircraft location if needed which can support to the mechanical steered array radar (doppler) of jf17 ... not just that jf17 has also external EW suite name k300G ... which can provide further Protection by supporting the EW Suite fitted on vertical stablizer as one works as RWR and K300G as jamming role to do multi tasking ( If they are designed to do one operation in combat scenario at a time) whil'st SU30MKI has the same but lacks the internal jamming capability as jf17 has in DEEC EW SUITE k300G is external one i repeat. Some one said that "RCS doesn't matter" that is not correct. When a enemy jet detects u first it is indeed a problem , Locking an Su30mki with KLJ7V2 if is little difficult is because of SU30MKI has a good radar ok , but one must realise that SU30MKI locking Jf17 is also difficult since in war scenario when both are well equipped than Jf17 also has EW SUITE to self protect from BVR ... So what I am saying is if BVR are fired from both side will also have less probability to kill because the as we all know the modern BVR's are Active Guided which have radar transceiver which have electronics to only track the missile to target , and as told both have a very good and autonomous RWR to alert the jet that missile is approaching and a good time b/w at least 30km . which is enough to deploy Chaff's and counter measures , furthermore they can get out of missile's range (which is tricky) or out course, and at the other hand both BVR's have anti jammers so again same probability for both to die and if a BVR is fired from 20 - 30 km radius it does not work as effective as in long range (if u know BVR u wont argue on this line).In end WVR again .So the conclusion for me is indeed in WVR SU30MKI is super maneuverable but if Jf17 did got HMD with missile as effective as off bore sight of +/- 50 degree off bore sight than I can happily say both the pilot will have an dangerous Bogey's to each other.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jungibaaz

Mr.Hunt said:


> 85 % of 120 is 102 kms ..... that is the tracking range of JF-17 for 5 m2 RCS. For 10 m2 RCS The Detection Range of KLJ-7 will be around 135 - 140 kms.



That is a fair estimate. I'd agree with you and put the detection range for 10m^2 around 140km given the range for 5m^2 as you've said is 120km. But the upgraded KLJ-7 has a detection range for a fighter sized target up to 130km. Now that would probably mean a target representing 5m^2. 



> KLJ-7 is not a high power radar. So as the Target range increases, The tracking range % gets reduced due to loss of power & disturbance in reception of reflected wave. Therefore consider 77-80 % as tracking range for 10 m2 RCS target. Even at 80% of 140kms the tracking range would be 112 kms. My previous calculation was based on 77% & so was not wrong.



The KLJ-7's only a bit less in terms of power then the APG-68.
And that I'm talking about the old stat, plans were underway to increase the power, meaning greater range without the cost of target resolution. 



> & PESA Radar [N011M] are hard to jam then MSA [KLJ-7]. So in a dense electronic jamming environment the performance of JF-17 will fall drastically when compared to Su-30MKI.



That's true BARS Hybrid ESA is harder to jam UNLESS you use a specific jamming technique and signal. 



> JF-17 Are inferior of Su-30MKI but they have provided PAF with a cost efficient solution for replacement of mirages & f-7. And JF-17 Outperforms & Is a generation ahead of the aircraft's it is replacing.



I never said that JF-17 was more capable, the question is can it take on MKI?
I would say it certainly can.

JF-17 has a massive RCS advantage, lowest RCS of all PAF airforce aircraft, putting in the F-16 Class of RCS so easily 1-2m^2.

Now MKI's RCS is higher than the Su-27 because of canards and extra seat. 
and frontal RCS clean would be at least 10m^2, armed would likely be 15m^2 all the way up to 20 depending on weapons configuration. Meaning the KLJ-7 could detect the MKI at long ranges.

So I believe that MKI's radar advantage is made up for by JF-17's RCS advantage and MKI's assive RCS


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

alimobin memon said:


> Jf17 was supposed to be a jet fighter to replace 3rd generation fleet , but after 1998 it eventual became the new fighter with 4+ generation avionics and airframe the new canopy , new airframe material , more composites than steel and RAM at critical positions ... Later jf17 was offered GRIFO S7 which was Originally Designed to replace APG 66 of F16 , However China came up with the better solution name klj7 version derived from KLJ10 however when it was introduced PAC was looking at the RC400 of MIRAGE 2000 for Jf17 but later PAC tested KLJ7 and approved it however neither was RC400 later offered so KLj7 was the solution .. Pakistan also introduced the DEEC Electronic warfare suite to jf17 with an excellent Radar warning receiver to the program, Radar warning receiver is believed to have a good range against enemy aircraft radar locking to the jf17. Later it was announced that SD10A and later upgraded to B are being procured by PAF , for jf17 some claimed SD10A had 70km range while'st B had over 100 but for the Effective usage of SD10B JF17 Radar needed to be effective , KLJ7v2 introduced already and was announced that it is easy to upgrade klj7 to V2 and so are updated let me tell you that in EW suite of jf17 contains Radar warning reciever that can help to know the enemy aircraft location if needed which can support to the mechanical steered array radar (doppler) of jf17 ... not just that jf17 has also external EW suite name k300G ... which can provide further Protection by supporting the EW Suite fitted on vertical stablizer as one works as RWR and K300G as jamming role to do multi tasking ( If they are designed to do one operation in combat scenario at a time) whil'st SU30MKI has the same but lacks the internal jamming capability as jf17 has in DEEC EW SUITE k300G is external one i repeat. Some one said that "RCS doesn't matter" that is not correct. When a enemy jet detects u first it is indeed a problem , Locking an Su30mki with KLJ7V2 if is little difficult is because of SU30MKI has a good radar ok , but one must realise that SU30MKI locking Jf17 is also difficult since in war scenario when both are well equipped than Jf17 also has EW SUITE to self protect from BVR ... So what I am saying is if BVR are fired from both side will also have less probability to kill because the as we all know the modern BVR's are Active Guided which have radar transceiver which are and electronics to only track the missile to target , and as told both have a very good and autonomous RWR to alert the jet that missile is approaching and a good time b/w at least 30km . which is enough to deploy Chaff's and counter measures , furthermore they can get out of missile's range (which is tricky) or out course, and at the other hand if a BVR is fired from 20 - 30 km radius it does not work as effective as in long range. So the conclusion for me is indeed in WVR SU30MKI is super maneuverable but if Jf17 did got HMD with missile as effective as off bore sight of +/- 50 degree off bore sight than I can happily say both the pilot will have an dangerous Bogey's to each other ...



mki is a larger aircraft with better ew suite and radar. it got speed, altitude and missile number advantage also.


----------



## alimobin memon

Agnostic_Indian said:


> mki is a larger aircraft with better ew suite and radar. it got speed, altitude and missile number advantage also.


My friend if Su30MKI is flying above will give Jf17 advantage of Greater radar range since LOOK up range is greater than look down and no one can in present judge if EW SUITE OF jf17 is less or SU30MKI's greater


----------



## Abingdonboy

Jungibaaz said:


> That is a fair estimate. I'd agree with you and put the detection range for 10m^2 around 140km given the range for 5m^2 as you've said is 120km. But the upgraded KLJ-7 has a detection range for a fighter sized target up to 130km. Now that would probably mean a target representing 5m^2.
> 
> 
> 
> The KLJ-7's only a bit less in terms of power then the APG-68.
> And that I'm talking about the old stat, plans were underway to increase the power, meaning greater range without the cost of target resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> That's true BARS Hybrid ESA is harder to jam UNLESS you use a specific jamming technique and signal.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that JF-17 was more capable, the question is can it take on MKI?
> I would say it certainly can.
> 
> JF-17 has a massive RCS advantage, lowest RCS of all PAF airforce aircraft, putting in the F-16 Class of RCS so easily 1-2m^2.
> 
> Now MKI's RCS is higher than the Su-27 because of canards and extra seat.
> and frontal RCS clean would be at least 10m^2, armed would likely be 15m^2 all the way up to 20 depending on weapons configuration. Meaning the KLJ-7 could detect the MKI at long ranges.
> 
> So I believe that MKI's radar advantage is made up for by JF-17's RCS advantage and MKI's assive RCS



The JF-17 may in special circumstances be "able to take on MKI" but in most cases the MKI will see the JF-17 much earlier and be able to take due action before the Thunder ever even knows the MKI is out there- the MKI will see the JF-17 at 140km, the JF-17 will see the MKI at ~115 km. 

Now take into consideration that from 2013/14 the MKIs will begin a "deep upgrade" known as the "Super" upgrade that will equip the MKI with an AESA radar, a new weapons suite ( Meteor/R-77 are going to part of it along with others) and RCS reduction through RAM coatings aswell as a greatly improved EW suite. So the MKI will be able to detect all PAF a/c at much greater ranges and engage them and the opposition a/c will be much less likely to ever see a MKI let alone engage it. Also if the oppostion a/c ever did manage to get lucky and get within missile range of the MKI the EW suite would make it much harder to lock-on an secure a kill wherin a WVR fight might ensue and we all know of the MKIs super-maneuverability with canards and TVC. One of the main criticisms always used by members here to attack the MKI is its relatively large RCS and now that is being addressed.


----------



## alimobin memon

Abingdonboy said:


> The JF-17 may in special circumstances be "able to take on MKI" but in most cases the MKI will see the JF-17 much earlier and be able to take due action before the Thunder ever even knows the MKI is out there- the MKI will see the JF-17 at 140km, the JF-17 will see the MKI at ~115 km.
> 
> Now take into consideration that from 2013/14 the MKIs will begin a "deep upgrade" known as the "Super" upgrade that will equip the MKI with an AESA radar, a new weapons suite ( Meteor/R-77 are going to part of it along with others) and RCS reduction through RAM coatings aswell as a greatly improved EW suite. So the MKI will be able to detect all PAF a/c at much greater ranges and engage them and the opposition a/c will be much less likely to ever see a MKI let alone engage it. Also if the oppostion a/c ever did manage to get lucky and get within missile range of the MKI the EW suite would make it much harder to lock-on an secure a kill wherin a WVR fight might ensue and we all know of the MKIs super-maneuverability with canards and TVC. One of the main criticisms always used by members here to attack the MKI is its relatively large RCS and now that is being addressed.



Very Good Explanation , However if we look at present there is not much advantage to MKI . but in 2014 -15 AESA i think only AESA is enough to make difficult for jf17 , But PAF might also bring a new block for jf17 in development by then.


----------



## MilSpec

Can Fc1's have a data link with the F16's???


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

alimobin memon said:


> My friend if Su30MKI is flying above will give Jf17 advantage of Greater radar range since LOOK up range is greater than look down and no one can in present judge if EW SUITE OF jf17 is less or SU30MKI's greater


it is simple common sense that bigger aircraft like mki can accommodate bigger and powerful radar and electronic warfare system.small ones can't because of space, power and in this case cost also. 

a missile fired from higher altitude from an aircraft flying at match 2 will get at least 20% to 30% advantage in range and time.


----------



## alimobin memon

Agnostic_Indian said:


> it is simple common sense that bigger aircraft like mki can accommodate bigger and powerful radar and electronic warfare system.small ones can't because of space, power and in this case cost also.
> 
> a missile fired from higher altitude from an aircraft flying at match 2 will get at least 20% to 30% advantage in range and time.


 In Case of Radar Look up has greater advantage than look down so no advantage for one flying above.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

alimobin memon said:


> In Case of Radar Look up has greater advantage than look down so no advantage for one flying above.


you may be right frankly I don't know about it.


----------



## Abingdonboy

alimobin memon said:


> Very Good Explanation , However if we look at present there is not much advantage to MKI . but in 2014 -15 AESA i think only AESA is enough to make difficult for jf17 , But PAF might also bring a new block for jf17 in development by then.



You're right to an extent- in a BVR fight there is about 30-40 kms in it and when you've got two opposing jet fighters traveling at speeds in excess of Mach 1 this is only really about 10 seconds of time for the MKI to capitalize on the radar advantage which obviously isn't much. Of course when you factor in weapons and EW suites it can be a different story. As a "bomb-truck" the JF-17 is pretty good- it does what it says on the can and is quite some "bang for your buck".

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## alimobin memon

Agnostic_Indian said:


> you may be right frankly I don't know about it.


http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/GRIFO_S.pdf u will see in end of page as a example the range difference


----------



## Jungibaaz

Abingdonboy said:


> The JF-17 may in special circumstances be "able to take on MKI" but in most cases the MKI will see the JF-17 much earlier and be able to take due action before the Thunder ever even knows the MKI is out there- the MKI will see the JF-17 at 140km, the JF-17 will see the MKI at ~115 km.



Sure sources say MKI can detect a 'fighter sized target' meaning 5m^2 at 140km which is where you've got that figure from.
But KLJ-7 can detect even a 5m^2 target above the 115km range you've stated.

MKI is much larger and could be detected in ranges in excess of 150km. 

Now I ma not saying that they are equal, nor am I saying that MKI doesn't have greater capability.
But MKI and JF-17 both have the capability to kill each other and when placed in the Indo-Pak theater where range of engagement is smaller and AWACS are in play... It's anyone's game at times. 



> Now take into consideration that from 2013/14 the MKIs will begin a "deep upgrade" known as the "Super" upgrade that will equip the MKI with an AESA radar, a new weapons suite ( Meteor/R-77 are going to part of it along with others) and RCS reduction through RAM coatings aswell as a greatly improved EW suite. So the MKI will be able to detect all PAF a/c at much greater ranges and engage them and the opposition a/c will be much less likely to ever see a MKI let alone engage it. Also if the oppostion a/c ever did manage to get lucky and get within missile range of the MKI the EW suite would make it much harder to lock-on an secure a kill wherin a WVR fight might ensue and we all know of the MKIs super-maneuverability with canards and TVC. One of the main criticisms always used by members here to attack the MKI is its relatively large RCS and now that is being addressed.



I have no doubt Super MKI will be impressive and from what we think we know, it will outclass JF-17 of the foreseeable future. 
But that is for the future right? that is why i wont go there, since you cannot compare since no-one knows much about the Block II and III JF-17.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## alimobin memon

Abingdonboy said:


> You're right to an extent- in a BVR fight there is about 30-40 kms in it and when you've got two opposing jet fighters traveling at speeds in excess of Mach 1 this is only really about 10 seconds of time for the MKI to capitalize on the radar advantage which obviously isn't much. Of course when you factor in weapons and EW suites it can be a different story. As a "bomb-truck" the JF-17 is pretty good- it does what it says on the can and is quite some "bang for your buck".


Yea Abingdonboy you are right , I hope the SU30MKI if upgraded in 2014 , then should JF17 too  or there will be huge gape.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Abingdonboy

alimobin memon said:


> Yea Abingdonboy you are right , I hope the SU30MKI if upgraded in 2014 , then should JF17 too  or there will be huge gape.



Haha- great answer! Indians and Pakistanis should thank one another for some of the awesome gear they get- if it weren't for the MMRCA the PAF wouldn't even be looking at the J-10, if it weren't for the PHALCON AWACS the PAF wouldn't have gone for the Erieye or ZDK similarly if it weren't for the F-16 the IAF wouldn't have gone for the MiG-29.

It is sad this is the case but that is the world we live in.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Mr.Hunt

Jungibaaz said:


> That is a fair estimate. I'd agree with you and put the detection range for 10m^2 around 140km given the range for 5m^2 as you've said is 120km. But the upgraded KLJ-7 has a detection range for a fighter sized target up to 130km. Now that would probably mean a target representing 5m^2.
> 
> 
> 
> The KLJ-7's only a bit less in terms of power then the APG-68.
> And that I'm talking about the old stat, plans were underway to increase the power, meaning greater range without the cost of target resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> That's true BARS Hybrid ESA is harder to jam UNLESS you use a specific jamming technique and signal.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that JF-17 was more capable, the question is can it take on MKI?
> I would say it certainly can.
> 
> JF-17 has a massive RCS advantage, lowest RCS of all PAF airforce aircraft, putting in the F-16 Class of RCS so easily 1-2m^2.
> 
> Now MKI's RCS is higher than the Su-27 because of canards and extra seat.
> and frontal RCS clean would be at least 10m^2, armed would likely be 15m^2 all the way up to 20 depending on weapons configuration. Meaning the KLJ-7 could detect the MKI at long ranges.
> 
> So I believe that MKI's radar advantage is made up for by JF-17's RCS advantage and MKI's assive RCS


 
Do u think that KLJ-7 V2 is Superior to ZHUK ME on MIG-29M. Zhuk ME is the latest Operational radar on MIG-29. ZHUK ME has as a range or 120 kms for 5m2 RCS. KLJ -7 is based on russian Phazotron N010 Zhuk radar which is a generation below ZHUK ME. 

Single engine fighters cannot support high power radar. Example Compare the radars oif F-35 vs F-22. I have considered the KLJ-7v2 while doing the calculations.The detection of range for KLJ-7v2 for 10 m2 RCS cannot be more then 140 kms. Because " So as the Target range increases, The tracking range % gets reduced due to *loss of power & disturbance in reception of reflected wave.* Therefore consider 77-80 % as tracking range for 10 m2 RCS target. Even at 80% of 140kms the tracking range would be 112 kms." 

& Su-30MKI carry a very good Israel Electronic Warfare Suite. In Electronic warfare JF-17 Is at serious disadvantage.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mr.Hunt

You cannot compare Su-30MKI. with JF-17. Both are different class of fighters. If F-16 was so good why did USA even built F-15 ?
Heavy fighters are necessary to DOMINATE the opponent. 
Why is China Manufacturing/Developing J-11 when they already have J-10 ?
Single engine fighters are good for defence but u need heavy twin engine fighters if you think of WINNING & not just defending yourself.
F-22, Typhoon, Rafale, Su-30MKI, Su-35BM, J-11, F-18, F-15 Can never be substituted by JAS-39, J-10, JF-17..... 
Just think of the below point & see who wins. 
Agility: Su-30MKI.
Radar: Su-30MKI.
Range: Su-30MKI.
Weapons: Su-30MKI.
Electronic Warfare: Su-30MKI.
Numbers in Servive: Su-30MKI.
RCS: JF-17


----------



## alimobin memon

Mr.Hunt said:


> You cannot compare Su-30MKI. with JF-17. Both are different class of fighters. If F-16 was so good why did USA even built F-15 ?
> Heavy fighters are necessary to DOMINATE the opponent.
> Why is China Manufacturing/Developing J-11 when they already have J-10 ?
> Single engine fighters are good for defence but u need heavy twin engine fighters if you think of WINNING & not just defending yourself.
> F-22, Typhoon, Rafale, Su-30MKI, Su-35BM, J-11, F-18, F-15 Can never be substituted by JAS-39, J-10, JF-17.....
> Just think of the below point & see who wins.
> Agility: Su-30MKI.
> Radar: Su-30MKI.
> Range: Su-30MKI.
> Weapons: Su-30MKI.
> Electronic Warfare: Su-30MKI.
> Numbers in Servive: Su-30MKI.
> RCS: JF-17



Hahahahha Kid F15 came Before F16 and For your information Zhuk me I read it's detail it is indeed Less in AA mode , claiming KLJ7 as one generation below (only moron would think so). My Friend KLJ7 "was" a copy of old zhuk radar "but" like J11 it added chinese expertise to improving it to further level. The old generation radar was bought from Russia in 1990's and klj7 was inducted tested first time in 2007 where are you? but according to you logically you are also saying j10A radar is also old generation? ... You are a Fanatic seriously no one know's the power of Electronic warfare suite of Jf17 and I never said jf17 is superior but in Present If we look technically SU30MKI would have only 4-5 seconds advantage before jf17 engages.
*Don't Judge A Book By It's Cover*
if u know what I mean't.
Oh and I just found a great information THAT SU30MKI has 120 km detection range for 5m^2 target and even if by 85% (for your sake ) the engagement range is 102!!! , Where as by 80% it is 96KM.
Further for your information russians are already worried about their 4th generation MIG 29 as it losses edge over jf17 and block 2 god knows what it would be ... Lates variant of MIG29 is SMT which is focused more on Ground attack package which has ZHUK ME radar (by the way it is not latest in series)
so .....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notorious_eagle

Abingdonboy said:


> The JF-17 may in special circumstances be "able to take on MKI" but in most cases the MKI will see the JF-17 much earlier and be able to take due action before the Thunder ever even knows the MKI is out there- the MKI will see the JF-17 at 140km, the JF-17 will see the MKI at ~115 km.
> 
> Now take into consideration that from 2013/14 the MKIs will begin a "deep upgrade" known as the "Super" upgrade that will equip the MKI with an AESA radar, a new weapons suite ( Meteor/R-77 are going to part of it along with others) and RCS reduction through RAM coatings aswell as a greatly improved EW suite. So the MKI will be able to detect all PAF a/c at much greater ranges and engage them and the opposition a/c will be much less likely to ever see a MKI let alone engage it. Also if the oppostion a/c ever did manage to get lucky and get within missile range of the MKI the EW suite would make it much harder to lock-on an secure a kill wherin a WVR fight might ensue and we all know of the MKIs super-maneuverability with canards and TVC. One of the main criticisms always used by members here to attack the MKI is its relatively large RCS and now that is being addressed.



You have presented a very valid argument but it fails to take a very important aspect into account, the introduction of AWACS and a fully fused C4I network on PAF's side. PAF has adopted a cost effective solution, instead of arming every plane with a capable radar, she has adopted to install force multipliers(AWACS, 3D Radars and Active/Passive Radars) to mitigate this factor. All aircrafts assigned for AD roles will be data-linked to PAF's command and control centre. 

This will enable the JF17 to roughly spot the MKI at approximately the same time as the MKI spots JF17. During the 2008 probing incident, although the AWACS on PAF side were not online they were able to track and vector in interceptors in less than 2 minutes towards the border. That should tell you how capable PAF's radar network is. No matter how much RAM coatings are applied on the MKI, you will never be able to reduce its RCS to a level of that of a Rafale or a EF. Its structurally designed in such a way from its inception, the least the designers can do is reduce the RCS to a minimum level and thats that. MKI is a very capable machine no doubt. If MKI and JF17 were going head to head far out in the ocean without any backup, my money would be on the MKI but wars are not fought 1 on 1. A cohesive strategy that is designed to get the maximum out of each and every asset is the name of the game today. 



Abingdonboy said:


> Haha- great answer! Indians and Pakistanis should thank one another for some of the awesome gear they get- if it weren't for the MMRCA the PAF wouldn't even be looking at the J-10, if it weren't for the PHALCON AWACS the PAF wouldn't have gone for the Erieye or ZDK similarly if it weren't for the F-16 the IAF wouldn't have gone for the MiG-29.
> 
> It is sad this is the case but that is the world we live in.



If it were up-to me i would scrap our Armed Forces and use that money for social uplift of the poor, employment generation, education and healthcare.


----------



## alimobin memon

notorious_eagle said:


> You have presented a very valid argument but it fails to take a very important aspect into account, the introduction of AWACS and a fully fused C4I network on PAF's side. PAF has adopted a cost effective solution, instead of arming every plane with a capable radar, she has adopted to install force multipliers(AWACS, 3D Radars and Active/Passive Radars) to mitigate this factor. All aircrafts assigned for AD roles will be data-linked to PAF's command and control centre.
> 
> This will enable the JF17 to roughly spot the MKI at approximately the same time as the MKI spots JF17. During the 2008 probing incident, although the AWACS on PAF side were not online they were able to track and vector in interceptors in less than 2 minutes towards the border. That should tell you how capable PAF's radar network is. No matter how much RAM coatings are applied on the MKI, you will never be able to reduce its RCS to a level of that of a Rafale or a EF. Its structurally designed in such a way from its inception, the least the designers can do is reduce the RCS to a minimum level and thats that. MKI is a very capable machine no doubt. If MKI and JF17 were going head to head far out in the ocean without any backup, my money would be on the MKI but wars are not fought 1 on 1. A cohesive strategy that is designed to get the maximum out of each and every asset is the name of the game today.
> 
> 
> 
> If it were up-to me i would scrap our Armed Forces and use that money for social uplift of the poor, employment generation, education and healthcare.



Oh yes who can forget the awacs and "C4I System" by pakistan but u are wrong that RCS of MKI cannot be reduced indeed it can be reduced check the RCS of SU35 BM


----------



## alimobin memon

Furthermore it was found that canards with TVC is not a combination , since u have TVC why would u need canards , which technically increases more RCS but also wastage of money , TVC is engine is super maneuverable machine , which not only provides Fuel efficient but a great lifting , yaw , pitch and rolling ... To take full canard advantage the canopy side to be lil more upwards or canards need to be fitted more high where as in Su30MKI they are not , i wonder why is that ... maybe I am wrong but till some one corrects i think i got a valid question in my mind


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

Su30mki Rely on Brute Power, a powerful difficult to Jam ( NIIP N011M Bars) , Elta EL/M-8222 self protection jamming pods (which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s), At-least x8 BVR's , TVC to outclass most fighters in WVR arena (in-case opponent managed survive BVR Salvo) . Su30Mki can carry even more powerful electronics on board, chances of Jf17 getting a lock and bringing down a Mki are not very promising. 

I see Jf17 as cost effective replacement for obsolete PaF fighters, it's not design to take on Mki's, the reason of inducting Jf17 is more related to limited funds. it does not provide any clear advantage over IAF brute force.


----------



## danger007

notorious_eagle said:


> You have presented a very valid argument but it fails to take a very important aspect into account, the introduction of AWACS and a fully fused C4I network on PAF's side. PAF has adopted a cost effective solution, instead of arming every plane with a capable radar, she has adopted to install force multipliers(AWACS, 3D Radars and Active/Passive Radars) to mitigate this factor. All aircrafts assigned for AD roles will be data-linked to PAF's command and control centre.
> 
> This will enable the JF17 to roughly spot the MKI at approximately the same time as the MKI spots JF17. During the 2008 probing incident, although the AWACS on PAF side were not online they were able to track and vector in interceptors in less than 2 minutes towards the border. That should tell you how capable PAF's radar network is. No matter how much RAM coatings are applied on the MKI, you will never be able to reduce its RCS to a level of that of a Rafale or a EF. Its structurally designed in such a way from its inception, the least the designers can do is reduce the RCS to a minimum level and thats that. MKI is a very capable machine no doubt. If MKI and JF17 were going head to head far out in the ocean without any backup, my money would be on the MKI but wars are not fought 1 on 1. A cohesive strategy that is designed to get the maximum out of each and every asset is the name of the game today.
> 
> 
> 
> If it were up-to me i would scrap our Armed Forces and use that money for social uplift of the poor, employment generation, education and healthcare.




sir may i know what kinda structural defect that MKI has..... please point out technical aspect why MKI RCS can't be reduced..... who want MKI RCS at the level of Rafael.....Do you forget the RCS of F-15...

Neither MKI will come alone nor JF-17.... JF-17 can't perform a role of MKI... it will be purely defensive fighter.... It is capable enough to hold on it self..... I just want to listen technical and logical points.... but not your opinions and false claims.........
I don't wanna see another war between India and Pakistan.... because we suffered alot with those war's which gained nothing..... now every thing is improving .....


----------



## alimobin memon

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Su30mki Rely on Brute Power, a powerful difficult to Jam ( NIIP N011M Bars) , Elta EL/M-8222 self protection jamming pods (which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s), At-least x8 BVR's , TVC to outclass most fighters in WVR arena (in-case opponent managed survive BVR Salvo) . Su30Mki can carry even more powerful electronics on board, chances of Jf17 getting a lock and bringing down a Mki are not very promising.
> 
> I see Jf17 as cost effective replacement for obsolete PaF fighters, it's not design to take on Mki's, the reason of inducting Jf17 is more related to limited funds. it does not provide any clear advantage over IAF brute force.



What you think is not a factor here , In war scenario any1 can be be pitted against each other so , saying elta from (israel) doesn't scare me indeed they have mastered but you cannot compare something that is not revealed with ELTA , saying it does not provide clear advantage over PAF is funny i think u lack knowledge and then u say "I'll stop replying to you" bro go first learn then come ...


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

alimobin memon said:


> What you think is not a factor here , In war scenario any1 can be be pitted against each other so , saying elta from (israel) doesn't scare me indeed they have mastered but you cannot compare something that is not revealed with ELTA , saying it does not provide clear advantage over PAF is funny i think u lack knowledge and then u say *"I'll stop replying to you" bro go first learn then come *...



Memon by this logic Jf17 does not provide any advantage over IaF, we know how good cheap Chinese products are ?? Your argument is baseless, like your other posts. 

And Dont copy me (the bolded part)


----------



## alimobin memon

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Memon by this logic Jf17 does not provide any advantage over IaF, we know how good cheap Chinese products are ?? Your argument is baseless, like your other posts.
> 
> And Dont copy me (the bolded part)


U Kidding me Baseless like my other posts i think i have to award u for ur Baseless arguments as always , We know what chinese products are ... I officially stop replying u ... have u even tried to read my last 5 posts just read it anyways.

*And i never said Jf17 is provides greater advantage , i said SU30MKI has 5 seconds estimate to react before jf17 *

I think u dont listen properly.


----------



## Manticore

Due to the awacs integration into a net centric environment , the detection time might not be of that much concern -- the actual capability of the missile might be more important & that too , not only its range

With the use of IFR probes , jft wont be a defensive fighter , rather it would carry a vast array of weapons which even our f16s dont carry

With the inclusion of LERX , you get a far better AoA as compared to previous design -- like the use of canards to get lift , LERX do the same job while getting direction stability from the ventral fins and tail planes

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...canard-non-canard-fighters-2.html#post3006617


The inner countermeasures area was significantly increased in the prototype4 --
from my article


> The JF-17 has a defensive aids system [DAS]which incoporates various subsystems.The radar warning reciever allows 360 degree coverage in a 60km range in both ultravoilet and infrared spectrums.Detection sensors are on the front and tail.100-500 different types of radar signatures can be saved.The inbuilt ECM can effectively counter radar locks.KG300G jamming pod has multiple mode jamming capabilty.HMS is speculated to be of chinese origin.The missile approach warning system [MAWS] with an integrated optical distributed aperture imaging system , scans in UV,IR and visual spectrums , detecting missiles at 20km range.












all values from official presentations of jft

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Safriz

J-10b vs mki should be the next discussion,as sooner or later PAF will have J-10b.


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

ANTIBODY said:


> Due to the awacs integration into a net centric environment , the detection time might not be of that much concern -- *the actual capability of the missile might be more important & that too , not only its range*
> 
> With the use of IFR probes , jft wont be a defensive fighter , rather it would carry a vast array of weapons which even our f16s dont carry



and Electronic Warfare Capabilities will play a very important role.


----------



## alimobin memon

ANTIBODY said:


> Due to the awacs integration into a net centric environment , the detection time might not be of that much concern -- the actual capability of the missile might be more important & that too , not only its range
> 
> With the use of IFR probes , jft wont be a defensive fighter , rather it would carry a vast array of weapons which even our f16s dont carry



Definitely IFR probe will increase the range of the jf17 to remain in airspace for further time . Jf17 has wide array of weapons include Anti Radiation missile which can be used to suppress enemy air defenses .


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

Safriz said:


> J-10b vs mki should be the next discussion,as sooner or later PAF will have J-10b.



but no official deal singed yet ?


----------



## tvsram1992

Any body who thinks Jf17 can win over rcs game should keep in mind that Mig21s can win over F16 in a similar way . The game is not only about rcs , it also includes maneuverability , ew systems , sensors , avionics , weapons .


----------



## alimobin memon

J10B is good platform but jf17 can be updated to same extent IFR probe will increase the range of operation , Payload is 4500 kg there might be improvements like HARD composites that might increase range like Gripen NG , take it that way like klj7 j10 radar can be integrated than tweaked to increase it's capabilities , IRST can be added to any 4+ generation fighter.



tvsram1992 said:


> Any body who thinks Jf17 can win over rcs game should keep in mind that Mig21s can win over F16 in a similar way . The game is not only about rcs , it also includes maneuverability , ew systems , sensors , avionics , weapons .


No , MIG 21 RCS is not lower than F16 , while'st MIG 21 Radar does not provide range enough counter a plane like f16 however when fully combat ready that is weapon equipped the F16 has 5m^2 and MIG 21 too than comes the power of radar ... but in case of jf17 thunder has less greater radar range to attack , 120 km is against 5m^2 for SU30mki while jf17 has 130km , however as i said in my one of the recent posts that SU30MKI avionics are good so it will only provide difference of 5 seconds which in BVR scenario is not enough


----------



## Rain

Mr.Hunt said:


> Do u think that KLJ-7 V2 is Superior to ZHUK ME on MIG-29M. Zhuk ME is the latest Operational radar on MIG-29. ZHUK ME has as a range or 120 kms for 5m2 RCS. KLJ -7 is based on russian Phazotron N010 Zhuk radar which is a generation below ZHUK ME.
> 
> Single engine fighters cannot support high power radar. Example Compare the radars oif F-35 vs F-22. I have considered the KLJ-7v2 while doing the calculations.The detection of range for KLJ-7v2 for 10 m2 RCS cannot be more then 140 kms. Because " So as the Target range increases, The tracking range % gets reduced due to *loss of power & disturbance in reception of reflected wave.* Therefore consider 77-80 % as tracking range for 10 m2 RCS target. Even at 80% of 140kms the tracking range would be 112 kms."
> 
> & Su-30MKI carry a very good Israel Electronic Warfare Suite. In Electronic warfare JF-17 Is at serious disadvantage.



Dear Mr Hunt,
Before you continue with your figures about radars ranges, you must do some logical rebuttal of Abdulbarijan post #372. if cant falsify the claims there, you should not continue to insist on your figures!

For rest of Indians fellows; Please dont forget that Indian armies have used elephents throughout their history, and their history is replete with examples that Horse mounted cavalary often defeated Elephants ounted forces, though those elephent were better equiped as compared to horses, It is just a example, dont start to discuss that examples plz.


----------



## Mr.Hunt

Safriz said:


> J-10b vs mki should be the next discussion,as sooner or later PAF will have J-10b.


 
Let PAF induct atleast 1st J-10 a b c d e or any version. Then we can discuss. & u guys have a plan for only 36 of these fighters. By the time PAF has 36 J-10 ... IAF wil have 270 SU-30mki.



Rain said:


> Dear Mr Hunt,
> Before you continue with your figures about radars ranges, you must do some logical rebuttal of Abdulbarijan post #372. if cant falsify the claims there, you should not continue to insist on your figures!
> 
> For rest of Indians fellows; Please dont forget that Indian armies have used elephents throughout their history, and their history is replete with examples that Horse mounted cavalary often defeated Elephants ounted forces, though those elephent were better equiped as compared to horses, It is just a example, dont start to discuss that examples plz.



The ranges are all correct. Pls point out the mistake so i can correct it.


----------



## alimobin memon

Mr.Hunt said:


> Let PAF induct atleast 1st J-10 a b c d e or any version. Then we can discuss. & u guys have a plan for only 36 of these fighters. By the time PAF has 36 J-10 ... IAF wil have 270 SU-30mki.
> 
> 
> 
> The ranges are all correct. Pls point out the mistake so i can correct it.


the Jf17 has 130 km against 5m^2 , the old generation was imported by china in 1990's jf17 inducted KLJ7 in 2007 which was in 2010 further improved (tweaked) u cannot judge the radar because chinese got the Tech from 1990's radar china also has major breakthrough's ... Zhuk me in range is lesser . same as ZHUK ME N011M BAR in SU30MKI has 120 km detection range for 5m^2 target and even if by 85% (for your sake ) the engagement range is 102!!! , Where as by 80% it is 96KM. You yourself explained that jf17 has greater range .
Further for your information russians are already worried about their 4th generation MIG 29 as it losses edge over jf17 ( not me saying u must know the event that happen about engines russians stated that than) and block 2 god knows what it would be ... Lates variant of MIG29 is SMT which is focused more on surface attack package and that has ZHUK ME radar (by the way it is not latest in series) there are different and improved variants too 

Please Read this

Jf17 was supposed to be a jet fighter to replace 3rd generation fleet , but after 1998 it eventual became the new fighter with 4+ generation avionics and airframe the new canopy , new airframe material , more composites than steel and RAM at critical positions ... Later jf17 was offered GRIFO S7 which was Originally Designed to replace APG 66 of F16 , However China came up with the better solution name klj7 version derived from KLJ10 however when it was introduced PAC was looking at the RC400 of MIRAGE 2000 for Jf17 but later PAC tested KLJ7 and approved it however neither was RC400 later offered so KLj7 was the solution .. Pakistan also introduced the DEEC Electronic warfare suite to jf17 with an excellent Radar warning receiver to the program, Radar warning receiver is believed to have a good range against enemy aircraft radar locking to the jf17. Later it was announced that SD10A and later upgraded to B are being procured by PAF , for jf17 some claimed SD10A had 70km range while'st B had over 100 but for the Effective usage of SD10B JF17 Radar needed to be effective , KLJ7v2 introduced already and was announced that it is easy to upgrade klj7 to V2 and so are updated let me tell you that in EW suite of jf17 contains Radar warning reciever that can help to know the enemy aircraft location if needed which can support to the mechanical steered array radar (doppler) of jf17 ... not just that jf17 has also external EW suite name k300G ... which can provide further Protection by supporting the EW Suite fitted on vertical stablizer as one works as RWR and K300G as jamming role to do multi tasking ( If they are designed to do one operation in combat scenario at a time) whil'st SU30MKI has the same but lacks the internal jamming capability as jf17 has in DEEC EW SUITE k300G is external one i repeat. Some one said that "RCS doesn't matter" that is not correct. When a enemy jet detects u first it is indeed a problem , Locking an Su30mki with KLJ7V2 if is little difficult is because of SU30MKI has a good radar ok , but one must realise that SU30MKI locking Jf17 is also difficult since in war scenario when both are well equipped than Jf17 also has EW SUITE to self protect from BVR ... So what I am saying is if BVR are fired from both side will also have less probability to kill because the as we all know the modern BVR's are Active Guided which have radar transceiver which have electronics to only track the missile to target , and as told both have a very good and autonomous RWR to alert the jet that missile is approaching and a good time b/w at least 30km . which is enough to deploy Chaff's and counter measures , furthermore they can get out of missile's range (which is tricky) or out course, and at the other hand both BVR's have anti jammers so again same probability for both to die and if a BVR is fired from 20 - 30 km radius it does not work as effective as in long range (if u know BVR u wont argue on this line).In end WVR again .So the conclusion for me is indeed in WVR SU30MKI is super maneuverable but if Jf17 did got HMD with missile as effective as off bore sight of +/- 50 degree off bore sight than I can happily say both the pilot will have an dangerous Bogey's to each other.

*Don't Judge a book by it's cover*

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-26.html#ixzz21ItDM2ik

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mr.Hunt

alimobin memon said:


> the Jf17 has 130 km against 5m^2 , the old generation was imported by china in 1990's jf17 inducted KLJ7 in 2007 which was in 2010 further improved (tweaked) u cannot judge the radar because chinese got the Tech from 1990's radar china also has major breakthrough's ... Zhuk me in range is lesser . same as ZHUK ME N011M BAR in SU30MKI has 120 km detection range for 5m^2 target and even if by 85% (for your sake ) the engagement range is 102!!! , Where as by 80% it is 96KM. You yourself explained that jf17 has greater range .
> Further for your information russians are already worried about their 4th generation MIG 29 as it losses edge over jf17 ( not me saying u must know the event that happen about engines russians stated that than) and block 2 god knows what it would be ... Lates variant of MIG29 is SMT which is focused more on surface attack package and that has ZHUK ME radar (by the way it is not latest in series) there are different and improved variants too
> 
> Please Read this
> 
> Jf17 was supposed to be a jet fighter to replace 3rd generation fleet , but after 1998 it eventual became the new fighter with 4+ generation avionics and airframe the new canopy , new airframe material , more composites than steel and RAM at critical positions ... Later jf17 was offered GRIFO S7 which was Originally Designed to replace APG 66 of F16 , However China came up with the better solution name klj7 version derived from KLJ10 however when it was introduced PAC was looking at the RC400 of MIRAGE 2000 for Jf17 but later PAC tested KLJ7 and approved it however neither was RC400 later offered so KLj7 was the solution .. Pakistan also introduced the DEEC Electronic warfare suite to jf17 with an excellent Radar warning receiver to the program, Radar warning receiver is believed to have a good range against enemy aircraft radar locking to the jf17. Later it was announced that SD10A and later upgraded to B are being procured by PAF , for jf17 some claimed SD10A had 70km range while'st B had over 100 but for the Effective usage of SD10B JF17 Radar needed to be effective , KLJ7v2 introduced already and was announced that it is easy to upgrade klj7 to V2 and so are updated let me tell you that in EW suite of jf17 contains Radar warning reciever that can help to know the enemy aircraft location if needed which can support to the mechanical steered array radar (doppler) of jf17 ... not just that jf17 has also external EW suite name k300G ... which can provide further Protection by supporting the EW Suite fitted on vertical stablizer as one works as RWR and K300G as jamming role to do multi tasking ( If they are designed to do one operation in combat scenario at a time) whil'st SU30MKI has the same but lacks the internal jamming capability as jf17 has in DEEC EW SUITE k300G is external one i repeat. Some one said that "RCS doesn't matter" that is not correct. When a enemy jet detects u first it is indeed a problem , Locking an Su30mki with KLJ7V2 if is little difficult is because of SU30MKI has a good radar ok , but one must realise that SU30MKI locking Jf17 is also difficult since in war scenario when both are well equipped than Jf17 also has EW SUITE to self protect from BVR ... So what I am saying is if BVR are fired from both side will also have less probability to kill because the as we all know the modern BVR's are Active Guided which have radar transceiver which have electronics to only track the missile to target , and as told both have a very good and autonomous RWR to alert the jet that missile is approaching and a good time b/w at least 30km . which is enough to deploy Chaff's and counter measures , furthermore they can get out of missile's range (which is tricky) or out course, and at the other hand both BVR's have anti jammers so again same probability for both to die and if a BVR is fired from 20 - 30 km radius it does not work as effective as in long range (if u know BVR u wont argue on this line).In end WVR again .So the conclusion for me is indeed in WVR SU30MKI is super maneuverable but if Jf17 did got HMD with missile as effective as off bore sight of +/- 50 degree off bore sight than I can happily say both the pilot will have an dangerous Bogey's to each other.
> 
> *Don't Judge a book by it's cover*
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-26.html#ixzz21ItDM2ik


 
Just give me any source which clain tat KLJ-7v2 has a detection range of 130 kms for 5m2 rcs target. And also for ur statement tat KLJ-7 is superior to ZHUK ME. Thats all i need & nothing else. Just 2 Links ..... Can u get it ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

Mr.Hunt said:


> *Just give me any source which clain tat KLJ-7v2 has a detection range of 130 kms for 5m2 rcs* target. And also for ur statement tat KLJ-7 is superior to ZHUK ME. Thats all i need & nothing else. Just 2 Links ..... Can u get it ?




here u go...


> Kanwa had an interview with PAF's General Javaid Ahmed, during which he stated that:
> - In 2012, they will be bring out the JF17 Blk 2. The main improvements are the addition of IRF, the development of a twin seat version, adding datalink and development of an export version JF17.
> - happy with the performance of the KJL7, so no immediate plans to switch to AESA (KJL7 specs: detection range for fighter sized target 130km; can track 16 targets and engage 2 at the same time; have SAR mapping capability)
> - The Chinese indigenous engine is currently undergoing flight testing and may be a while before it is fitted to a JF17
> - In 2011 the JF17 test fired: 1 x C802 (hit a seaborne target 90km away, max range 180km); 2 x LS-6 bombs, one is a 500kg GPS guided weapon with 60km range and CEP of 15m, the other was a 250kg laser/IIR+GPS guided weapon with a range of 65km and CEP of 5.3-7.5m; SD10 and other weapons.
> translation credits -Plawolf
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...hunder-information-pool-23.html#ixzz21GTxEWhp





ANTIBODY said:


>

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Alphacharlie

alimobin memon said:


> the Jf17 has 130 km against 5m^2 , the old generation was imported by china in 1990's jf17 inducted KLJ7 in 2007 which was in 2010 further improved (tweaked) u cannot judge the radar because chinese got the Tech from 1990's radar china also has major breakthrough's ... Zhuk me in range is lesser . same as ZHUK ME N011M BAR in SU30MKI has 120 km detection range for 5m^2 target and even if by 85% (for your sake ) the engagement range is 102!!! , Where as by 80% it is 96KM. You yourself explained that jf17 has greater range .
> Further for your information russians are already worried about their 4th generation MIG 29 as it losses edge over jf17 ( not me saying u must know the event that happen about engines russians stated that than) and block 2 god knows what it would be ... Lates variant of MIG29 is SMT which is focused more on surface attack package and that has ZHUK ME radar (by the way it is not latest in series) there are different and improved variants too
> 
> Please Read this
> 
> Jf17 was supposed to be a jet fighter to replace 3rd generation fleet , but after 1998 it eventual became the new fighter with 4+ generation avionics and airframe the new canopy , new airframe material , more composites than steel and RAM at critical positions ... Later jf17 was offered GRIFO S7 which was Originally Designed to replace APG 66 of F16 , However China came up with the better solution name klj7 version derived from KLJ10 however when it was introduced PAC was looking at the RC400 of MIRAGE 2000 for Jf17 but later PAC tested KLJ7 and approved it however neither was RC400 later offered so KLj7 was the solution .. Pakistan also introduced the DEEC Electronic warfare suite to jf17 with an excellent Radar warning receiver to the program, Radar warning receiver is believed to have a good range against enemy aircraft radar locking to the jf17. Later it was announced that SD10A and later upgraded to B are being procured by PAF , for jf17 some claimed SD10A had 70km range while'st B had over 100 but for the Effective usage of SD10B JF17 Radar needed to be effective , KLJ7v2 introduced already and was announced that it is easy to upgrade klj7 to V2 and so are updated let me tell you that in EW suite of jf17 contains Radar warning reciever that can help to know the enemy aircraft location if needed which can support to the mechanical steered array radar (doppler) of jf17 ... not just that jf17 has also external EW suite name k300G ... which can provide further Protection by supporting the EW Suite fitted on vertical stablizer as one works as RWR and K300G as jamming role to do multi tasking ( If they are designed to do one operation in combat scenario at a time) whil'st SU30MKI has the same but lacks the internal jamming capability as jf17 has in DEEC EW SUITE k300G is external one i repeat. Some one said that "RCS doesn't matter" that is not correct. When a enemy jet detects u first it is indeed a problem , Locking an Su30mki with KLJ7V2 if is little difficult is because of SU30MKI has a good radar ok , but one must realise that SU30MKI locking Jf17 is also difficult since in war scenario when both are well equipped than Jf17 also has EW SUITE to self protect from BVR ... So what I am saying is if BVR are fired from both side will also have less probability to kill because the as we all know the modern BVR's are Active Guided which have radar transceiver which have electronics to only track the missile to target , and as told both have a very good and autonomous RWR to alert the jet that missile is approaching and a good time b/w at least 30km . which is enough to deploy Chaff's and counter measures , furthermore they can get out of missile's range (which is tricky) or out course, and at the other hand both BVR's have anti jammers so again same probability for both to die and if a BVR is fired from 20 - 30 km radius it does not work as effective as in long range (if u know BVR u wont argue on this line).In end WVR again .So the conclusion for me is indeed in WVR SU30MKI is super maneuverable but if Jf17 did got HMD with missile as effective as off bore sight of +/- 50 degree off bore sight than I can happily say both the pilot will have an dangerous Bogey's to each other.
> 
> *Don't Judge a book by it's cover*
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-26.html#ixzz21ItDM2ik



One question from a ChopperMan...Is KLJ7V2 L Band RADAR ?


----------



## danger007

abdulbarijan said:


> here u go...



that is just an interview??? only




abdulbarijan said:


> here u go...



that is just an interview??? only


----------



## alimobin memon

Mr.Hunt said:


> Just give me any source which clain tat KLJ-7v2 has a detection range of 130 kms for 5m2 rcs target. And also for ur statement tat KLJ-7 is superior to ZHUK ME. Thats all i need & nothing else. Just 2 Links ..... Can u get it ?



Ok I never said klj7 ,i said KLJ7v2 has better range than Zhuk me Radar , KLJ7 was updated in 2010 . Why would I lie that klj7v2 has range of 130 km ... Believe it or move one I don't have source to satisfy u nor i care if u believe , I cant believe whole pakistani members have told here many time about klj7v2 . At the other hand klj7v2 has greater range than Zhuk me in Air to Air mode whil'st the Zhuk me is more from surface targets like ship with excellent range which is better than klj7v2 ...

if u dont believe the interview that Abdul barijan provided than God bless you

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

Alphacharlie said:


> One question from a ChopperMan...Is KLJ7V2 L Band RADAR ?



nope X-band ragar.........


----------



## alimobin memon

Alphacharlie said:


> One question from a ChopperMan...Is KLJ7V2 L Band RADAR ?



X band radar



alimobin memon said:


> Ok I never said klj7 ,i said KLJ7v2 has better range than Zhuk me Radar , KLJ7 was updated in 2010 . Why would I lie that klj7v2 has range of 130 km ... Believe it or move one I don't have source to satisfy u nor i care if u believe , I cant believe whole pakistani members have told here many time about klj7v2 . At the other hand klj7v2 has greater range than Zhuk me in Air to Air mode whil'st the Zhuk me is more from surface targets like ship with excellent range which is better than klj7v2 ...
> 
> if u dont believe the interview that Abdul barijan provided than God bless you



People here dont read full posts than say need source be technical man i know u guys have better size airforce but that doesnt mean what we have is junk

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

danger007 said:


> that is just an interview??? only
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that is just an interview??? only



From who?? thats right Javaid ahmed so u can try to "not believe it" ...because its up to u...ive only stated the link which states so...

after all the pattern of posters (usual) is 
*
"please state an official source...."*

after the source is given

the usual reaction is to *criticize the source terming it unreliable...*

and if thats not possible

*"that was only an interview"* as it becomes like a *last resort*...


and dont worry...this goes both for pakistai and indian members..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Bratva

Mr.Hunt said:


> Just give me any source which clain tat KLJ-7v2 has a detection range of 130 kms for 5m2 rcs target. And also for ur statement tat KLJ-7 is superior to ZHUK ME. Thats all i need & nothing else. Just 2 Links ..... Can u get it ?




Go to JF-17 Information Pool which specifically made for ignorants like you. There you will find the interview of JF-17 project director Air commodor Javaid Ahmad in which he said KLJ V1 has 130 Km range for 5m^2. Based on this info, we can guess upgraded KLJ-7 version 2 will have 150-160 KM range.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## alimobin memon

mafiya said:


> Go to JF-17 Information Pool which specifically made for ignorants like you. There you will find the interview of JF-17 project director Air commodor Javaid Ahmad in which he said KLJ V1 has 130 Km range for 5m^2. Based on this info, we can guess upgraded KLJ-7 version 2 will have 150-160 KM range.



I have a question so tweaked klj7 is still klj7v1 and v2 is to be for block 2 wow man that means block 2 radar will have more range


----------



## Mav3rick

alimobin memon said:


> I have a question so tweaked klj7 is still klj7v1 and v2 is to be for block 2 wow man that means block 2 radar will have more range



I wonder if the JF-17 need such massive radar ranges especially since we can already detect & track every jet that takes off from the forward bases of India without even an AWEACS.


----------



## manofwar

@Alimobin man can you please specify your source for N011 Bars range?? I have been skimming the web, but the only thing that seems available is it's full range which is 400kms...........


----------



## alimobin memon

manofwar said:


> @Alimobin man can you please specify your source for N011 Bars range?? I have been skimming the web, but the only thing that seems available is it's full range which is 400kms...........


overall range is 400 km for example F16block 52+ over all range is 290km ... that could surface or aerial target


----------



## INDIAISM

manofwar said:


> @Alimobin man can you please specify your source for N011 Bars range?? I have been skimming the web, but the only thing that seems available is it's full range which is 400kms...........


Go through this thread...
www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/94948-radar-ranges-different-fighters-2.html


----------



## alimobin memon

INDIAISM said:


> Go through this thread...
> www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/94948-radar-ranges-different-fighters-2.html



Here it says SU30mki has 140 for RCS 5m^2 Admit it I am so sorry
Still it favors my point , The klj7 has now 130 for RCS 5m^2 while'st SU30MKI has more than 5m^2 RCS furthermore let the for example RCS of MKI is 8m^2 it still provides that jf17 will detect and engage in BVR as it will have 145-50 km track range..  
105 for klj7 is original jf17 radar which was later upgraded ...However ur link says SU30MKI has 10-15 m^2 that is almost more than 160 for it  block 2 has even greater range against SU30MKI since it has 150 - 160 km for 5m^2 so radar range winner JF17


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

abdulbarijan said:


> Aha...i found it...this is from *aero India 2011*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su-30MKI Acquisition and Upgrade - IDP Sentinel
> 
> The URL I gave has the pic, u can see the high resolution version there too...


what is maximum tracking range mentioned there as 200 nm?


----------



## alimobin memon

Agnostic_Indian said:


> what is maximum tracking range mentioned there as 200 nm?



Tracking range is the one that tracks ( follow the aircraft's ) position while detection range is the one when aircraft is in the sight of Radar , Engagement range is 80=85% of of detection range ... Maximum written here is for the aircraft's maximum ability now take example like this Bar can track target at 200 NM if aircraft RCS is greater than 15 so now even if u bring a aircraft with 30 RCS the only capability of the radar is to track no more than 200nm which is its maximum

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

Agnostic_Indian said:


> what is maximum tracking range mentioned there as 200 nm?



say what? if your referring to whats written below...its not max tracking range ...its written

"Minimum tracking range : 200 mm" 

u can use the link ive given and see a bigger resolution version there..


----------



## alimobin memon

abdulbarijan said:


> say what? if your referring to whats written below...its not max tracking range ...its written
> 
> "Minimum tracking range : 200 mm"
> 
> u can use the link ive given and see a bigger resolution version there..



what the hell is MM here i am confused


----------



## Skull and Bones

Agnostic_Indian said:


> what is maximum tracking range mentioned there as 200 nm?



That's nm, stands for nautical miles.

1 nm = 1.852 km.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Pak47

alimobin memon said:


> Here it says SU30mki has 140 for RCS 5m^2 Admit it I am so sorry
> Still it favors my point , The klj7 has now 130 for RCS 5m^2 while'st SU30MKI has more than 5m^2 RCS furthermore let the for example RCS of MKI is 8m^2 it still provides that jf17 will detect and engage in BVR as it will have 145-50 km track range..
> 105 for klj7 is original jf17 radar which was later upgraded ...However ur link says SU30MKI has 10-15 m^2 that is almost more than 160 for it  block 2 has even greater range against SU30MKI since it has 150 - 160 km for 5m^2 so radar range winner JF17



Actually the RCS of Mki is about 15m^2-18m^2 considering it will carry weapons for an air to air role.. Its around 12-15 without any weapons..


RCS of thunder will be around 3m^2 with air to air role.. and around 1m^2 without air to air..

After this info.. if anyone beliefs Mki will detect thunder first you're simply foolish.



Mr.Hunt said:


> Let PAF induct atleast 1st J-10 a b c d e or any version. Then we can discuss. & u guys have a plan for only 36 of these fighters. By the time PAF has 36 J-10 ... IAF wil have 270 SU-30mki.



J-10 order is around 58.. 

J-10 is designed for Rafale..


----------



## Mav3rick

Guys I have a question......isn't a bigger, more powerful radar also a prime target for anti radiation mode in missiles?


----------



## Storm Force

I think some people are trying to CONVINCE THEMSELVES that the JF17 is useful detterant in the future against wat will be the BIGGEST most widely used fighter in the IAF ie 15 sqds of su30mki nearly HALF of the entire IAF BY 2017 (272 PLANES) 

jf17 FAN BOYS ARE RIGHT wen they say SU30MKI has a far bigger RCS = WE AGREE 

but 

JF17 fan boys also have realise that SU30MKI 

has far more advanced radar in PESA bars which processes data FAR FASTER than the much older technology KLJ 7/10 which uses a MSA system

SU30MKI can track 40 targets ie 40 PAF fighters in one go versis 15 for JFT 

su30mki can carry three times as many BVRS. AS thunder

SU30MKI has far bigger more potent JAMMERS from ELTA of israel 

su30mki can stay in the air 2 to 3 x as long and cover twice the combat radius.

SU30MKI does not necessarily need GCC or AWACS to commincate with other fighters and is dubbed a mini awacs 

----------------------

Any fool can see the SU30MKI is a far more potent machine in a one v one with JFT 

there fore.....PAF will bank on GCC their SAM bases and AWACS making up the difference. AS YOU PEOPLE keep telling us 

___________________

BUT AGAIN your arguments are so flawed 

firstly the SU30MKI outnumber the JFT today 150 TO 30 = 5 TO 1 
throw in 60 ODD F16 it stil only 90 v 150 SU30MKI 

second the SU30 MKI will fight in PAF air space only after jaguars mirage2000 & rafale have jammed destroyed and knocked out the GCC sams first. *OR SHOULD I SAY attempted to knock out the TESTICLES FIRST... * They wont just send in su30mki blindly to be picked up and pounced on.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Mav3rick

Storm Force said:


> I think some people are trying to CONVINCE THEMSELVES that the JF17 is useful detterant in the future against wat will be the BIGGEST most widely used fighter in the IAF ie 15 sqds of su30mki nearly HALF of the entire IAF BY 2017 (272 PLANES)
> 
> jf17 FAN BOYS ARE RIGHT wen they say SU30MKI has a far bigger RCS = WE AGREE
> 
> but
> 
> JF17 fan boys also have realise that SU30MKI
> 
> has far more advanced radar in PESA bars which processes data FAR FASTER than the much older technology KLJ 7/10 which uses a MSA system
> 
> SU30MKI can track 40 targets ie 40 PAF fighters in one go versis 15 for JFT
> 
> su30mki can carry three times as many BVRS. AS thunder
> 
> SU30MKI has far bigger more potent JAMMERS from ELTA of israel
> 
> su30mki can stay in the air 2 to 3 x as long and cover twice the combat radius.
> 
> SU30MKI does not necessarily need GCC or AWACS to commincate with other fighters and is dubbed a mini awacs
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> Any fool can see the SU30MKI is a far more potent machine in a one v one with JFT
> 
> there fore.....PAF will bank on GCC their SAM bases and AWACS making up the difference. AS YOU PEOPLE keep telling us
> 
> ___________________
> 
> BUT AGAIN your arguments are so flawed
> 
> firstly the SU30MKI outnumber the JFT today 150 TO 30 = 5 TO 1
> throw in 60 ODD F16 it stil only 90 v 150 SU30MKI
> 
> second the SU30 MKI will fight in PAF air space only after jaguars mirage2000 & *rafale have jammed destroyed and knocked out the GCC sams first*. *OR SHOULD I SAY attempted to knock out the TESTICLES FIRST... * They wont just send in su30mki blindly to be picked up and pounced on.


 
That's where you ruined your post. You were speaking of the current scenario and then suddenly you had to bring Rafale's in between when nobody knows when they will even begin to be inducted in IAF!


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

abdulbarijan said:


> here u go...



I have some doubts in the interview it says " In 2012, they will be bring
out the JF17 Blk 2. The main
improvements are the
addition of IRF, the
development of a twin seat
version, adding datalink and
development of an export
version JF17.
- happy with the performance
of the KJL7, so no immediate
plans to switch to AESA (KJL7
specs: detection range for
fighter sized target 130km;
can track 16 targets and
engage 2 at the same time;
have SAR mapping capability) "

so they must be speaking about 2012 version 2 of the radar which is not the current version. 

further it states " (KJL7
specs: detection range for
fighter sized target 130km;
can track 16 targets and
engage 2 at the same time;
have SAR mapping capability) ". that's must not be version 1 because on the first para they said about addition of SAR mapping capability. 

so given spec should be of block 2 which is yet to roll out. am I right?


----------



## Storm Force

Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

IF the aussies feel that NOT even their F18 super hornets can gurantee a SUCCESSFUL counter to flankers " how can your PAKISTANIS tell us the JFT thunder can ????

OR are the aussies just stupid and not a GOOD AIR FORCE ///

maverick
MY POST was excellent 

it made sense and was honest 

AS for rafale 

i can gurantee that IAF will have a fully inducted RAFALE F3 sqd in service before both the FC20 & JFT MK3 arrives in PAF 

ie 2015


----------



## mylovepakistan

Storm Force said:


> I think some people are trying to CONVINCE THEMSELVES that the JF17 is useful detterant in the future against wat will be the BIGGEST most widely used fighter in the IAF ie 15 sqds of su30mki nearly HALF of the entire IAF BY 2017 (272 PLANES)
> 
> jf17 FAN BOYS ARE RIGHT wen they say SU30MKI has a far bigger RCS = WE AGREE
> 
> but
> 
> JF17 fan boys also have realise that SU30MKI
> 
> has far more advanced radar in PESA bars which processes data FAR FASTER than the much older technology KLJ 7/10 which uses a MSA system
> 
> SU30MKI can track 40 targets ie 40 PAF fighters in one go versis 15 for JFT
> 
> su30mki can carry three times as many BVRS. AS thunder
> 
> SU30MKI has far bigger more potent JAMMERS from ELTA of israel
> 
> su30mki can stay in the air 2 to 3 x as long and cover twice the combat radius.
> 
> SU30MKI does not necessarily need GCC or AWACS to commincate with other fighters and is dubbed a mini awacs
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> Any fool can see the SU30MKI is a far more potent machine in a one v one with JFT
> 
> there fore.....PAF will bank on GCC their SAM bases and AWACS making up the difference. AS YOU PEOPLE keep telling us
> 
> ___________________
> 
> BUT AGAIN your arguments are so flawed
> 
> firstly the SU30MKI outnumber the JFT today 150 TO 30 = 5 TO 1
> throw in 60 ODD F16 it stil only 90 v 150 SU30MKI
> 
> second the SU30 MKI will fight in PAF air space only after jaguars mirage2000 & rafale have jammed destroyed and knocked out the GCC sams first. *OR SHOULD I SAY attempted to knock out the TESTICLES FIRST... * They wont just send in su30mki blindly to be picked up and pounced on.



hi,

we so called fan boys of jf 17 never said that JF 17 is better or more potent than sukhoi 30 MKI,

rather we just make all INDIAN FAN BOYS realize that SUKHOI MKI is no GOD's creation and its never an invincible aircraft,

our statements are only for those who think MKI is invincible jet and there is no way in the hell for JF 17 to bring a MKI down,
and its not like that foolishness what indian fan boys show claiming sukhoi as invincible,atleast our statements make a sense unlike those parroted statements about JF 17 being an obsolete and pathetic jet, 

however its just their a fantasy,though you or other indians dont like it

JF 17 has every chance to bring MKI down if it is used properly against it...

and now considering the average pilot performance i think its an un-disputed fact that PAF pilots were one of the best and PAF pilots are one of the best in world which unfortunately is not case for indian pilots that have a world record crash rate...!

i think sukhoi wont be able to eat a pop easily,


----------



## abdulbarijan

Agnostic_Indian said:


> I have some doubts in the interview it says " In 2012, they will be bring
> out the JF17 Blk 2. The main
> improvements are the
> addition of IRF, the
> development of a twin seat
> version, adding datalink and
> development of an export
> version JF17.
> - happy with the performance
> of the KJL7, so no immediate
> plans to switch to AESA (KJL7
> specs: detection range for
> fighter sized target 130km;
> can track 16 targets and
> engage 2 at the same time;
> have SAR mapping capability) "
> 
> so they must be speaking about 2012 version 2 of the radar which is not the current version.
> 
> further it states " (KJL7
> specs: detection range for
> fighter sized target 130km;
> can track 16 targets and
> engage 2 at the same time;
> have SAR mapping capability) ". that's must not be version 1 because on the first para they said about addition of SAR mapping capability.
> 
> so given spec should be of block 2 which is yet to roll out. am I right?



I always assumed that they were talking about the V2 version... i dont know if others think otherwise

I have always assumed 105 Km range for 5m2 as the baseline model was quoted as giving 75 Km range for 3m2 which roughly equals 85+ Km for 5m2....at dubai 2011 some officials said that the baseline KLJ-07 was upgraded... so hence I believe it has 105 Km range for 5m2, which BTW are the official figures by the manufacturers, u can ask more to storm force about this as he had compiled a whole thread regarding BVR, detection and so forth...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

mylovepakistan said:


> hi,
> 
> we so called fan boys of jf 17 never said that JF 17 is better or more potent than sukhoi 30 MKI,
> 
> rather we just make all INDIAN FAN BOYS realize that SUKHOI MKI is no GOD's creation and its never an invincible aircraft,
> 
> our statements are only for those who think MKI is invincible jet and there is no way in the hell for JF 17 to bring a MKI down,
> and its not like that foolishness what indian fan boys show claiming sukhoi as invincible,atleast our statements make a sense unlike those parroted statements about JF 17 being an obsolete and pathetic jet,
> 
> however its just their a fantasy,though you or other indians dont like it
> 
> JF 17 has every chance to bring MKI down if it is used properly against it...
> 
> and now considering the average pilot performance i think its an un-disputed fact that PAF pilots were one of the best and PAF pilots are one of the best in world which unfortunately is not case for indian pilots that have a world record crash rate...!
> 
> i think sukhoi wont be able to eat a pop easily,




another idiological claim..... 

\
JF-17 has chances but minimal...... who are saying MKI is god.... it is just human made jet..... but far advanced than JF-17........ neither that generation pilots alive... lolz crash rate due to vintage jets and some with human errors... what is your point????



JF 17 has every chance to bring MKI down if it is used properly against it


please enlighten us.... can you share your tacticts and views...... ok you will say with awacs help.... what if awacs is shotdown???? JF-17 will become blind bird...... we don't need false claims... because MKI is superior... you need to hype it to bring on level of MKI.....


----------



## INDIAISM

alimobin memon said:


> Here it says SU30mki has 140 for RCS 5m^2 Admit it I am so sorry
> Still it favors my point , The klj7 has now 130 for RCS 5m^2 while'st SU30MKI has more than 5m^2 RCS furthermore let the for example RCS of MKI is 8m^2 it still provides that jf17 will detect and engage in BVR as it will have 145-50 km track range..
> 105 for klj7 is original jf17 radar which was later upgraded ...However ur link says SU30MKI has 10-15 m^2 that is almost more than 160 for it  block 2 has even greater range against SU30MKI since it has 150 - 160 km for 5m^2 so radar range winner JF17


How conveniently you forgot to mention few things....

a}Radar of Jf17 will be upgraded in Blk2 version..

b}At present PAF don't even have even a single Jf17 Blk2 in its Kity....

C}IAF is going to upgrade Su30 Mki.....in which Su30Mki will get new Radar Zhuk Ae Aesa Radar....


----------



## mylovepakistan

danger007 said:


> another idiological claim.....
> 
> \
> JF-17 has chances but minimal...... who are saying MKI is god.... it is just human made jet..... but far advanced than JF-17........ neither that generation pilots alive... lolz crash rate due to vintage jets and some with human errors... what is your point????
> 
> 
> 
> JF 17 has every chance to bring MKI down if it is used properly against it
> 
> 
> please enlighten us.... can you share your tacticts and views...... ok you will say with awacs help.... what if awacs is shotdown???? JF-17 will become blind bird...... we don't need false claims... because MKI is superior... you need to hype it to bring on level of MKI.....



LOL !!!

should i really reply to a KID that comes with his new theory that says something like this...

"a jet whose radar is having 130 km range against a fighter sized object...IS BLIND WITHOUT AN AWACS"

LOL!!!

wow....

you know last time you asked me to MIND MY LANGUAGE..

but believe me only a moron can state such statements..LOL


now i know you will jump and go to IRST and jammers account..

REMEMBER in ur above theory you did not even mention these..anyhow lets take account of IRST and jammers too,

currently we dont know the actual capabilities of KG300G jammer so no point here to argue,

BUT for IRST...chinese PODED IRST is superior to OLS-27 and inferior to OLS-30 on board MKI,

however simply go to 1st page and see how MKI with its overly EXPOSED ENGINES gives a HUGE IRST signature too,

hence JF 17 will be able to lock earlier....


YOU dont need FALSE claims?? oh really?????


so please prove here that MKI detects jf 17 earlier...prove it...while if you going with that mr.hunt then ask him to reply the abdulbarijan's posts...

and we will see what you will come up with...LOL!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## aanshu001

Well any plane with decent radar & missile can shoot any plane in favorable condition. Now in war scenario if JF - 17 face Su 30 MKI it had quite chances but we need understand below. 

1. PAF not only need to face IAF treat but also need to protect sea lane ( don't tell me Mirage -III with rose upgrade can take Mig 29 - K) so PAF resources are divided in two direction 

2. SAM system - present & in near future IAF & IA had better SAM ie. Akash, Barak , Spider supported by Green Pine & Swordfish radar system ( this land based radars are unmatched) 
3. AWACS - I put both countries even as both had advance systems

4. BVR missile & tactics - Upper hand is with India with more experience and more platforms to which carry BVR 

5. Geographical dept - Most of IAF bases are secure from stand off missiles as they are deep inside but in case of PAF most of them situated near the border so more vulnerable compare to Indian

6. Pilot training - Now this is very interesting, most of Pakistanis says PAF pilots are better trained than IAF ( In case of Old platforms like F-16 or Mirage it may be correct) but for a completely new platform never inducted before how can a pilot can be superior. In Pilot training MKI is more mature than JF-17 ( and Indians also had been benefited by tactic evolved by Russian on Su family). As we all agree any platform take years to mature ( so the claim JF -17 pilot is better trained is base less it will still take years to prepare training manual for JF -17). 

7. Number - I am not adding Raffle or LCA ( if we take Mig 21 + Mig 29 ug + Su 30 MKI + Mig ) no. of BVR capable planes with capable radars even Mig 21 with Kopyo-M can Track- 10 Targets andssimultaneously Engage - 2 Targets with max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km with Israeli jamming pods on the migs & RCS of 3m2 can give hard time to any PAF plane. 

now on claims of JF-17 radar range. Janes reports that KLJ-7's range is 75km for 3m2 target. http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8879/klj7st5.jpg . Invoking the Radar-Range-RCS equation the calculated range for 5m2 target is 85km which is far less than comments made hear


----------



## danger007

mylovepakistan said:


> LOL !!!
> 
> should i really reply to a KID that comes with his new theory that says something like this...
> 
> "a jet whose radar is having 130 km range against a fighter sized object...IS BLIND WITHOUT AN AWACS"
> 
> LOL!!!
> 
> wow....
> 
> you know last time you asked me to MIND MY LANGUAGE..
> 
> but believe me only a moron can state such statements..LOL
> 
> 
> now i know you will jump and go to IRST and jammers account..
> 
> REMEMBER in ur above theory you did not even mention these..anyhow lets take account of IRST and jammers too,
> 
> currently we dont know the actual capabilities of KG300G jammer so no point here to argue,
> 
> BUT for IRST...chinese PODED IRST is superior to OLS-27 and inferior to OLS-30 on board MKI,
> 
> however simply go to 1st page and see how MKI with its overly EXPOSED ENGINES gives a HUGE IRST signature too,
> 
> hence JF 17 will be able to lock earlier....
> 
> 
> YOU dont need FALSE claims?? oh really?????
> 
> 
> so please prove here that MKI detects jf 17 earlier...prove it...while if you going with that mr.hunt then ask him to reply the abdulbarijan's posts...
> 
> and we will see what you will come up with...LOL!!!




Im not MKI fanboy but AMCA..... I am eagerly waiting for it...... Just because MKI got huge RCS wont help JF-17 to bring down.... RCS is will be one of factor which helps to detect a jet...... In that case.... US should close F-15 production line....


I know who is kid here......


----------



## HAIDER

We discuss long before thust vectoring is curse in bettle zone. Its only good for russian acrobat teams. Defence anaylst gave very good reason. For using thrust vectoring plane has to reduce the speed at its lowest and thrust need to increase at top. Means using thrust vectoring Plane not only burnt double the fuel but also easy target. Leave behind extremely high heat signature, a good for any incoming.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> Im not MKI fanboy but AMCA..... I am eagerly waiting for it...... Just because MKI got huge RCS wont help JF-17 to bring down.... RCS is will be one of factor which helps to detect a jet...... In that case.... US should close F-15 production line....
> 
> I know who is kid here......



I've provided an overview of the situation many times over but it seems as people on either side want to forget about the reality and just stay busy trolling their lives away. 
In the case of Pakistan and India, the great radar of SU30MKI doesn't exactly have an advantage. If that was the case, you would've seen per-emptive strikes on Pakistan in 2008.
JFT can detect SU 30 from around 140KM, SU30 can detect a JFT from around 160KM. But where it gets tricky is that neither BVR missile works over this distance, nor does a BVR work all the way to the end of its flight spectrum. It's not a bullet that goes straight, it's a missile and countering high maneuverability is expected from it. Which in turn bleeds flight time, fuel, drag, velocity, target reacquisition, and thus reducing the range. So the ranges above 100KM are really for tracking only. Each side has GBR's (ground based radars) that already have similar range into each others territory so radars ranges from SU30 or JFT ..don't really make a huge issue or add a new capability. Pakistan's FOB's are well within 100KM of the Indian border so both the aircraft will see each other as soon as JFT will get airborne. 
The mirages and the SU30 that came into Pakistan's territory had two locks on it as soon as an F16 and a F7 became airborne. Both of these jets flew from FOB's. In fact, the F 7 was 20 Km inside Pakistani territory when it took off and obtained a lock on SU 30 right away as the Chinese PL5 and AIM9X, both have 20+km ranges. So the short distance between the two puts SU 30 at a small disadvantage from an EW or interception from long distance's standpoint. 
But in my opinion, SU 30 could be lethal as it carries a LOT of weapons. It can double fire BVR's onto an incoming bogy making it VERY difficult to evade two good BVR's. It can do that with at least 3 incoming jets, sending two BVR's for each plane. Making it difficult to counter the bvr's.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## danger007

orangzaib said:


> I've provided an overview of the situation many times over but it seems as people on either side want to forget about the reality and just stay busy trolling their lives away.
> In the case of Pakistan and India, the great radar of SU30MKI doesn't exactly have an advantage. If that was the case, you would've seen per-emptive strikes on Pakistan in 2008.
> JFT can detect SU 30 from around 140KM, SU30 can detect a JFT from around 160KM. But where it gets tricky is that neither BVR missile works over this distance, nor does a BVR work all the way to the end of its flight spectrum. It's not a bullet that goes straight, it's a missile and countering high maneuverability is expected from it. Which in turn bleeds flight time, fuel, drag, velocity, target reacquisition, and thus reducing the range. So the ranges above 100KM are really for tracking only. Each side has GBR's (ground based radars) that already have similar range into each others territory so radars ranges from SU30 or JFT ..don't really make a huge issue or add a new capability. Pakistan's FOB's are well within 100KM of the Indian border so both the aircraft will see each other as soon as JFT will get airborne.
> The mirages and the SU30 that came into Pakistan's territory had two locks on it as soon as an F16 and a F7 became airborne. Both of these jets flew from FOB's. In fact, the F 7 was 20 Km inside Pakistani territory when it took off and obtained a lock on SU 30 right away as the Chinese PL5 and AIM9X, both have 20+km ranges. So the short distance between the two puts SU 30 at a small disadvantage from an EW or interception from long distance's standpoint.
> But in my opinion, SU 30 could be lethal as it carries a LOT of weapons. It can double fire BVR's onto an incoming bogy making it VERY difficult to evade two good BVR's. It can do that with at least 3 incoming jets, sending two BVR's for each plane. Making it difficult to counter the bvr's.




Sir i am not down playing JF-17.... i mentioned many times JF-17 is cost effective fighter..... 

while in case of preemptive strike , super su-30mki will be assigned.... as it can carry Brahmos ... and up graded RADAR im not sure about AESA .... might be reduced RCS at the level su-35 ......... in that case upgraded MKI don't need to step into Pak airspace ... because pakistan don't have large area.........

i have one question.... what if MKI uses stand off missiles from the boarder as well brahmos????

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HAIDER

orangzaib said:


> I've provided an overview of the situation many times over but it seems as people on either side want to forget about the reality and just stay busy trolling their lives away.
> In the case of Pakistan and India, the great radar of SU30MKI doesn't exactly have an advantage. If that was the case, you would've seen per-emptive strikes on Pakistan in 2008.
> JFT can detect SU 30 from around 140KM, SU30 can detect a JFT from around 160KM. But where it gets tricky is that neither BVR missile works over this distance, nor does a BVR work all the way to the end of its flight spectrum. It's not a bullet that goes straight, it's a missile and countering high maneuverability is expected from it. Which in turn bleeds flight time, fuel, drag, velocity, target reacquisition, and thus reducing the range. So the ranges above 100KM are really for tracking only. Each side has GBR's (ground based radars) that already have similar range into each others territory so radars ranges from SU30 or JFT ..don't really make a huge issue or add a new capability. Pakistan's FOB's are well within 100KM of the Indian border so both the aircraft will see each other as soon as JFT will get airborne.
> The mirages and the SU30 that came into Pakistan's territory had two locks on it as soon as an F16 and a F7 became airborne. Both of these jets flew from FOB's. In fact, the F 7 was 20 Km inside Pakistani territory when it took off and obtained a lock on SU 30 right away as the Chinese PL5 and AIM9X, both have 20+km ranges. So the short distance between the two puts SU 30 at a small disadvantage from an EW or interception from long distance's standpoint.
> But in my opinion, SU 30 could be lethal as it carries a LOT of weapons. It can double fire BVR's onto an incoming bogy making it VERY difficult to evade two good BVR's. It can do that with at least 3 incoming jets, sending two BVR's for each plane. Making it difficult to counter the bvr's.


Endorse above statement. Every AC has to come certain range to strike the target. A BVR with 130 range is not necessary will have proven strike. If its 130 then has to come atleast minmum 70 km to 80 km range to strike the target. But read in few articles they argue about the range, some saay average 40 km to 50 km.


----------



## alimobin memon

INDIAISM said:


> How conveniently you forgot to mention few things....
> 
> a}Radar of Jf17 will be upgraded in Blk2 version..
> 
> b}At present PAF don't even have even a single Jf17 Blk2 in its Kity....
> 
> C}IAF is going to upgrade Su30 Mki.....in which Su30Mki will get new Radar Zhuk Ae Aesa Radar....



130 km is upgraded range of block klj7 radar. block 1 radar already has air to air range than BAR . Block radar is new no one knows specific details. Zhuk Ae is ofcourse to be super flanker program radar but one must realise we also will by then start developing block 3 



abdulbarijan said:


> I always assumed that they were talking about the V2 version... i dont know if others think otherwise
> 
> I have always assumed 105 Km range for 5m2 as the baseline model was quoted as giving 75 Km range for 3m2 which roughly equals 85+ Km for 5m2....at dubai 2011 some officials said that the baseline KLJ-07 was upgraded... so hence I believe it has 105 Km range for 5m2, which BTW are the official figures by the manufacturers, u can ask more to storm force about this as he had compiled a whole thread regarding BVR, detection and so forth...


baseline model has 105 km already for 5m^2 , the new upgrade is 130 km ... 75 for 3m^2 doesn't count 85+ because 4m^2 gets 85+ range while'st 105 for 5m^2 , there is difference of 2 b/w 3 and 5


----------



## Jungibaaz

aanshu001 said:


> Well any plane with decent radar & missile can shoot any plane in favorable condition. Now in war scenario if JF - 17 face Su 30 MKI it had quite chances but we need understand below.
> 
> 1. PAF not only need to face IAF treat but also need to protect sea lane ( don't tell me Mirage -III with rose upgrade can take Mig 29 - K) so PAF resources are divided in two direction



Same goes for you, PLAAF should be your biggest worry. 



> 2. SAM system - present & in near future IAF & IA had better SAM ie. Akash, Barak , Spider supported by Green Pine & Swordfish radar system ( this land based radars are unmatched)



Sure, Pakistan armed forces are very tight lipped about SAM purchases.
FT-2000, HQ-2B, HQ-18 and Spada 200. 

But India does seem to have a wider range of more modern SAMs.



> 3. AWACS - I put both countries even as both had advance systems
> 
> 4. BVR missile & tactics - Upper hand is with India with more experience and more platforms to which carry BVR



How so? It's a common misconception to think that PAF is new to BVR, that AIM-120C-5 is PAF's first.
PAF have had AIM-7F Sparrow for F-16s and T-darter for over a decade now.



> 5. Geographical dept - Most of IAF bases are secure from stand off missiles as they are deep inside but in case of PAF most of them situated near the border so more vulnerable compare to Indian



Sure, but Pakistan would retaliate equally any bases within range that are meant to deal with Pakistan would be targeted by Ra'ad and Babur. India does have a geological advantage, but effects would be the same.



> 6. Pilot training - Now this is very interesting, most of Pakistanis says PAF pilots are better trained than IAF ( In case of Old platforms like F-16 or Mirage it may be correct) but for a completely new platform never inducted before how can a pilot can be superior. In Pilot training MKI is more mature than JF-17 ( and Indians also had been benefited by tactic evolved by Russian on Su family). As we all agree any platform take years to mature ( so the claim JF -17 pilot is better trained is base less it will still take years to prepare training manual for JF -17).



So what you're saying is that MKI pilots are IAF's best so JF-17's can't possibly compete?
Well that isn't how it works, PAF would place it's best near the Indian border whether that goes for F-16 or JF-17.



> 7. Number - I am not adding Raffle or LCA ( if we take Mig 21 + Mig 29 ug + Su 30 MKI + Mig ) no. of BVR capable planes with capable radars even Mig 21 with Kopyo-M can Track- 10 Targets andssimultaneously Engage - 2 Targets with max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km with Israeli jamming pods on the migs & RCS of 3m2 can give hard time to any PAF plane.



LCA will be a threat as much as MKI I believe, Even Mk.2 will be comparable to our best F-16s. 



> now on claims of JF-17 radar range. Janes reports that KLJ-7's range is 75km for 3m2 target. http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8879/klj7st5.jpg . Invoking the Radar-Range-RCS equation the calculated range for 5m2 target is 85km which is far less than comments made hear



Please show me your calculation. and the equation you've used.
that 75km figure goes hand in hand with 105km for 5m^2.

But even those stats are old, the upgraded KLJ-7 has a detection range for 130km for 5m^2 size target.
Sources given in earlier pages of this thread.


----------



## alimobin memon

The problem is that janes, Global security , wikipedia and PAC itself hasn't updated their section for JF17 for a period now which makes Indians think that jf17 is still what it was then 
No matter what any1 says block radar is upgraded to 130 km for 5m^2 , over all range increase from 150 to unknown figures .
let me tell u that klj7 initially had 135 for surface sea targets but it was found that C802A of jf17 has 180km range which means jet cannot take the full advantage of the missile a radar needed to be able to minimum attack an sea target with 140 km range. so that is one of the factor jf17 radar was upgraded the over all range is increased. You tell me Wikipedia still talks about concerns over engines which is already solved and chilled. 
jf17 is cost effective fighters for others one must realise we for a time now ought to become self reliant rather than import. jf17 is not cost effective for us but it is PAF's backbone , westerns economies are in not as good condition as they did now what they are doing is keep increasing the cost even F35 which suppose to be 5th generation solution became too expensive . Our currency and chinese is not very high which gives us products at low prices . If jf17 was an western product i guarantee that it would not be less than 35 million dollars.
If you guys dont like jf17 ... dont like it because that is what we want.
If MKI is so good and u almost have blue navy for this region , why are u guys afraid of Pakistan who has only 100 4th generation fighters where as u guys have 350 atleast ... Invade us . Now please dont tell me u are not offensive


----------



## MiG-21

> baseline model has 105 km already for 5m^2 , the new upgrade is 130 km ... 75 for 3m^2 doesn't count 85+ because 4m^2 gets 85+ range while'st 105 for 5m^2 , there is difference of 2 b/w 3 and 5











> Please show me your calculation. and the equation you've used.
> that 75km figure goes hand in hand with 105km for 5m^2.
> 
> But even those stats are old, the upgraded KLJ-7 has a detection range for 130km for 5m^2 size target.
> Sources given in earlier pages of this thread.


(5/3)^1/4 * 75


Aim-7 in PAF's inventory? Seriously? Is there no limit to a fanboy's dreams?


First off, Janes, is not wikipedia or Global security. God! Second, a 105km for 5m2 range is the same as the radar range of the Mirage-2000-5, Mirage-2000-9 and F-16 Block-52. These 2 radars have bigger dishes, most definitely have superior processing capabilities and Gain, and most probably have a higher transmitter power. One of the reason why the 105km number is looked upon with suspicion. If that figure was of the J-10's radar, a comparable aircraft to F-16 and Mirage-2000, then it would have made a bit of sense. But JF-17...? 
I'm not even going to go into the "130km for fighter sized target" thing. First let Block-2 fly. From the recent klimov order update, the engines haven't even been manufactured because it still wasn't asked for yet.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

alimobin memon said:


> The problem is that janes, Global security , wikipedia and PAC itself hasn't updated their section for JF17 for a period now which makes Indians think that jf17 is still what it was then
> No matter what any1 says block radar is upgraded to 130 km for 5m^2 , over all range increase from 150 to unknown figures .
> let me tell u that klj7 initially had 135 for surface sea targets but it was found that C802A of jf17 has 180km range which means jet cannot take the full advantage of the missile a radar needed to be able to minimum attack an sea target with 140 km range. so that is one of the factor jf17 radar was upgraded the over all range is increased. You tell me Wikipedia still talks about concerns over engines which is already solved and chilled.
> jf17 is cost effective fighters for others one must realise we for a time now ought to become self reliant rather than import. jf17 is not cost effective for us but it is PAF's backbone , westerns economies are in not as good condition as they did now what they are doing is keep increasing the cost even F35 which suppose to be 5th generation solution became too expensive . Our currency and chinese is not very high which gives us products at low prices . If jf17 was an western product i guarantee that it would not be less than 35 million dollars.
> If you guys dont like jf17 ... dont like it because that is what we want.
> If MKI is so good and u almost have blue navy for this region , why are u guys afraid of Pakistan who has only 100 4th generation fighters where as u guys have 350 atleast ... Invade us . Now please dont tell me u are not offensive



check post #446 the increased range should be for version 2 which is yet to come.


----------



## mylovepakistan

danger007 said:


> Im not MKI fanboy but AMCA..... I am eagerly waiting for it...... Just because MKI got huge RCS wont help JF-17 to bring down.... RCS is will be one of factor which helps to detect a jet...... In that case.... US should close F-15 production line....
> 
> 
> I know who is kid here......



LOL!

you say im not MKI fan boy yet ur theory shows only foolishness that jf 17 with out an AWACS is blind against MKI....LOL!


read it again and have a nice laugh at ur self and ur theory...and then i hope you will come to know that u are really a KID...


----------



## Storm Force

LOTS OF HOT AIR and heavey breathing regarding RCS and radars 

People are concentrating on only 2 things RCS and range of radar.

THE DIFFRENCE in the 2 planes is far more complex (too complex for 99% of us in this forum) 

FOR A START 

SU30MKI carries a PESA tech radar. PESA radars fall between the AESA technology and the much older MSA radar found on 3rd generation fighters..

JF17 carries a older Mechanical sterring atenna radar. THIS means despite the boasting of radar ranges ITS realatively easier to jam by the SU30MKI elta jammers and IT processes data at only half the speed. 

Your arguments over who wil,spot who are so flawed and all these rash assumptions of we have better pilots and you will be over PAK airspace are just HOT AIR 

I suggest you all read up a neutral western source on the evolving PESA radar tech,, TVC on fighters like SU30MKI F22 & J20 & PAK FA before you contribute...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## alimobin memon

Storm Force said:


> LOTS OF HOT AIR and heavey breathing regarding RCS and radars
> 
> People are concentrating on only 2 things RCS and range of radar.
> 
> THE DIFFRENCE in the 2 planes is far more complex (too complex for 99% of us in this forum)
> 
> FOR A START
> 
> SU30MKI carries a PESA tech radar. PESA radars fall between the AESA technology and the much older MSA radar found on 3rd generation fighters..
> 
> JF17 carries a older Mechanical sterring atenna radar. THIS means despite the boasting of radar ranges ITS realatively easier to jam by the SU30MKI elta jammers and IT processes data at only half the speed.
> 
> Your arguments over who wil,spot who are so flawed and all these rash assumptions of we have better pilots and you will be over PAK airspace are just HOT AIR
> 
> I suggest you all read up a neutral western source on the evolving PESA radar tech,, TVC on fighters like SU30MKI F22 & J20 & PAK FA before you contribute...



Since when an MSA radar became third generation , PESA is not good as u think, sending many signals of same frequency doesn't make MSA fool enough to make it vulnerable .only AESA which sends different signals of different frequency , Ask any think tank what has tvc given rather than aerobatic display ....


----------



## abdulbarijan

> Representatives of NRIET at the Chinese defence electronics exhibition told Jane's in early April that the KLJ-7 radar installed in the FC-1/JF-17 - the fighter aircraft developed jointly with Pakistan -* has undergone improvements from its original configuration.* The system can now "manage up to 40 targets, track up to 10 in track-while-scan [TWS] mode and engage two targets simultaneously", they said.
> China's NRIET outlines fighter radar improvements - Jane's Defence Weekly


----------



## alimobin memon

abdulbarijan said:


>



This news and brochure is from 2008 april , improved klj7 was 2010 development


----------



## MiG-21

abdulbarijan said:


> Representatives of NRIET at the Chinese defence electronics exhibition told Jane's in early April that the KLJ-7 radar installed in the FC-1/JF-17 - the fighter aircraft developed jointly with Pakistan - has undergone improvements from its original configuration. The system can now "manage up to 40 targets, track up to 10 in track-while-scan [TWS] mode and engage two targets simultaneously", they said.
> China's NRIET outlines fighter radar improvements - Jane's Defence Weekly


As a result of those improvements, the current range is now 85km for 5m2. Check the date of that publication.

Check the date of this one - KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics
"*The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in Track-While-Scan (TWS) mode and can engage two targets simultaneously at BVR. The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.*"



> improved klj7 was 2010 development


Source?


----------



## alimobin memon

MiG-21 said:


> As a result of those improvements, the current range is now 85km for 5m2. Check the date of that publication.
> 
> Check the date of this one - KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics
> "*The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in Track-While-Scan (TWS) mode and can engage two targets simultaneously at BVR. The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.*"



Man this is jan 2009. Klj7 has been further improved in range. The posts from jane are back from 2009 it is not updated .

I think pakistani and Indians both are right. Only real combat can prove what is what. Nobody from both side will agree to the opposing one lets stop this discussion 



MiG-21 said:


> As a result of those improvements, the current range is now 85km for 5m2. Check the date of that publication.
> 
> Check the date of this one - KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics
> "*The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in Track-While-Scan (TWS) mode and can engage two targets simultaneously at BVR. The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.*"
> 
> 
> Source?



kanwa news reported there are no immediate plans of replacing the Klj-7 which has a range of "130km" for a fighter size target.

probably with just slight tweaks we can achieve 140-150km range..which is more than enough

and kanwa quoted a high range PAF official

by farhan 990_9


----------



## abdulbarijan

MiG-21 said:


> As a result of those improvements, the current range is now 85km for 5m2. Check the date of that publication.
> 
> Check the date of this one - KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics
> "*The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in Track-While-Scan (TWS) mode and can engage two targets simultaneously at BVR. The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.*"
> 
> 
> Source?


Man just see the official claim....range is 105 Km for 5m2 ....and thats that...


----------



## MiG-21

> kanwa news reported there are no immediate plans of replacing the Klj-7 which has a range of "130km" for a fighter size target.
> 
> probably with just slight tweaks we can achieve 140-150km range..which is more than enough
> 
> and kanwa quoted a high range PAF official
> 
> by farhan 990_9


I know about the "130km for fighter sized target" story. If I were you I'd wait for a bit longer before the finer details of that figure emerges. We all saw what happened to the 10,000kgf RD-93 story.


----------



## alimobin memon

The radar of block 1 is tweaked by PAC this is CATIC international advertisement brochure . Don't believe then don't. I believe because i know it ... As for indians asking for Source .if u ask from me the source is





This is not secret but source is


----------



## abdulbarijan

alimobin memon said:


> The radar of block 1 is tweaked by PAC this is CATIC international advertisement brochure . Don't believe then don't. I believe because i know it ... Source if u ask from me the source is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not secret but source is



Oi Allah dia bandia...

Im replying to somebody whose saying it has 85 Km range for 5m2.
Now as for 130 km range could be that V2 is already ready....and i know about the claims...the dubai claim of upgradation,then the javaid ahmed interview.... i already know all about that,,,


----------



## alimobin memon

From both the sides we have read the valid reasons for what is better /// Real combat can only prove one wrong so lets just stop the argument and wait for further developments 



abdulbarijan said:


> Oi Allah dia bandia...
> 
> Im replying to somebody whose saying it has 85 Km range for 5m2.
> Now as for 130 km range could be that V2 is already ready....and i know about the claims...the dubai claim of upgradation,then the javaid ahmed interview.... i already know all about that,,,



Sorry bhai i was editing galti se galat post kardiya  
V2 is another story Block 1 radar has been upgraded to 130 km


----------



## abdulbarijan

MiG-21 said:


> I know about the "130km for fighter sized target" story. If I were you I'd wait for a bit longer before the finer details of that figure emerges. We all saw what happened to the 10,000kgf RD-93 story.



we all have seen the very steep vertical climb too....for the guys that still believed that T/w ratio was not over 1...LOL!





alimobin memon said:


> From both the sides we have read the valid reasons for what is better /// Real combat can only prove one wrong so lets just stop the argument and wait for further developments
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry bhai i was editing galti se galat post kardiya
> V2 is another story Block 1 radar has been upgraded to 130 km




I just hope what ur saying is true...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MiG-21

> Man just see the official claim....range is 105 Km for 5m2 ....and thats that...


Just think its suspicious as I previous mentioned. In any case, I don't wish to dwell on it further. 
And one more fast fact, that famous brochure may indeed be official but it was not taken from any official website. It's from Prasun K Sengupta who scanned it and posted on his blog.



> we all have seen the very steep vertical climb too....for the guys that still believed that T/w ratio was not over 1...LOL!


T/W depends on amount of fuel and payload. You load just 500kgs for a few minutes flight display, it gives a T/W of 1.17 for JF-17.

I can't believe you ppl are still holding on to that 10,000kgf nonsense!!


----------



## abdulbarijan

MiG-21 said:


> Just think its suspicious as I previous mentioned. In any case, I don't wish to dwell on it further.
> And one more fast fact, that famous brochure may indeed be official but it was not taken from any official website. It's from Prasun K Sengupta who scanned it and posted on his blog.



So thank u again, ur quoting an Indian source who took the brochure of CETC (the manufacturer) scanned it and it gives u a range at 105 Km... *You have a 2 in 1 here ( Indian + official source) so i dont think you should deny it any further..*




> T/W depends on amount of fuel and payload. You load just 500kgs for a few minutes flight display, it gives a T/W of 1.17 for JF-17.
> 
> I can't believe you ppl are still holding on to that 10,000kgf nonsense!!



And i cant believe you believe that *JF-17 was using its full after burner thrust at an airshow*....






Dont forget *first claims were of 83-84 Kn* engine power and suddenly it becomes about *86 KN at izmir...*

Surprise surprise


----------



## MiG-21

> So thank u again, ur quoting an Indian source who took the brochure of CETC (the manufacturer) scanned it and it gives u a range at 105 Km... You have a 2 in 1 here ( Indian + official source) so i dont think you should deny it any further..


Indian Source? That is not an indian source, that is Prasun Sen Gupta. Looks like you don't know much about that guy.

He also claims,
"The MLU kits for the PAF's original 40 F-16A/Bs and 26 F-16A/Bs did contain the APG-68(V)9radar but this component of the order was later withdrawn at Pakistan's request after the 2005 earthquake due to budgetary constraints. The MLU package now includes only the structural life-extension programme and installation of upgraded defensive aids suites and comms suites, both of which are US-origin hardware but will be installed jointly by TAI and ASELSAN in Turkey."

So lets believe that as well.



> And i cant believe you believe that JF-17 was using its full after burner thrust at an airshow....
> Dont forget first claims were of 83-84 Kn engine power and suddenly it becomes about 86 KN at izmir...
> Surprise surprise


It was using full afterburner.
Watch JF-17 vs F-16 vs MiG-29 Turn Rate Comparison Video | Break.com


----------



## jha

Nitin Goyal said:


> what is RCS of a Predator drone ?



Hahahaha... That was naughty....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

MiG-21 said:


> Just think its suspicious as I previous mentioned. In any case, I don't wish to dwell on it further.
> And one more fast fact, that famous brochure may indeed be official but it was not taken from any official website. It's from Prasun K Sengupta who scanned it and posted on his blog.
> 
> 
> T/W depends on amount of fuel and payload. You load just 500kgs for a few minutes flight display, it gives a T/W of 1.17 for JF-17.
> 
> I can't believe you ppl are still holding on to that 10,000kgf nonsense!!


 
I think we can go with the official brochure.


----------



## abdulbarijan

MiG-21 said:


> Indian Source? That is not an indian source, that is Prasun Sen Gupta. Looks like you don't know much about that guy.
> 
> He also claims,
> "The MLU kits for the PAF's original 40 F-16A/Bs and 26 F-16A/Bs did contain the APG-68(V)9radar but this component of the order was later withdrawn at Pakistan's request after the 2005 earthquake due to budgetary constraints. The MLU package now includes only the structural life-extension programme and installation of upgraded defensive aids suites and comms suites, both of which are US-origin hardware but will be installed jointly by TAI and ASELSAN in Turkey."



So this CETC brochure is Sengupta's claim?? plain and simple it is not...its the claim of the manufacturer..he simply posted it..




> So lets believe that as well.
> 
> 
> It was using full afterburner.
> Watch JF-17 vs F-16 vs MiG-29 Turn Rate Comparison Video | Break.com



Secondly because it was using after burner...means it was using 86 Kn claimed thrust??


----------



## aanshu001

[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is that MKI pilots are IAF's best so JF-17's can't possibly compete?
Well that isn't how it works, PAF would place it's best near the Indian border whether that goes for F-16 or JF-17. [/QUOTE]

I am not saying MKI pilots are best ( I think still most exp pilots fly Mig 29 & Mirage 2000) MKI pilots are mix of new rookies with old. What I am saying Su 30 is bases on Su 27 is tasted platform for decades so design a training manual or exercise is far easy than for a new platform like JF -17.


----------



## MiG-21

> So this CETC brochure is Sengupta's claim?? plain and simple it is not...its the claim of the manufacturer..he simply posted it..


Who knows. He may have been playing with photoshop to get some cheap hits on his blog and his work. And looks like it worked pretty well. That thing is almost everywhere.



> Secondly because it was using after burner...means it was using 86 Kn claimed thrust??


It looks pretty lit to me.


----------



## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> Sir i am not down playing JF-17.... i mentioned many times JF-17 is cost effective fighter.....
> 
> while in case of preemptive strike , super su-30mki will be assigned.... as it can carry Brahmos ... and up graded RADAR im not sure about AESA .... might be reduced RCS at the level su-35 ......... in that case upgraded MKI don't need to step into Pak airspace ... because pakistan don't have large area.........
> 
> i have one question.... what if MKI uses stand off missiles from the boarder as well brahmos????


 
The answer is what you can't afford to see in reality.....I think Pakistani have been VERY clear about it. They know their depth isn't that much. They also know that India is conventionally getting much advanced and with the foreign investments coming in, they now have the money to buy 4.5 gen jets in large numbers. Thus, they've focused on the nuclear umbrella and the threshold. 

Plus, the standoff weapons existed in 2008 too on both sides....why do you think nothing was done???

Another example is, the NATO....do you think someone can JUST close the doors on NATO and expect NATO to sit back and 'talk' when the nature of this alliance is for military purposes only and to use overwhelming force when need be? There had to be something that made an alliance of all major powers to 'talk' for six months?? You seem smart so I let you figure out the rest.

I've said it many times before, it doesn't matter what India gets or Pakistan gets. UNLESS India knows 200% it'll neutralize Pakistan's military in the first strike, don't do anything like what you are suggesting...EVER.....for the love of God and for the sake of hundreds of millions of people in the region. SAD part is, if anything serious happened.....you'll STILL be living next to each other. So why not use your energies together in human progress than in testy military conflict where no one would win?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

MiG-21 said:


> Who knows. He may have been playing with photoshop to get some cheap hits on his blog and his work. And looks like it worked pretty well. That thing is almost everywhere.
> 
> 
> It looks pretty lit to me.



Your post speaks for itself..


----------



## alimobin memon

Indians believe official source and Pakistani there source .. End of discussion since no one believes anyway


----------



## danger007

orangzaib said:


> The answer is what you can't afford to see in reality.....I think Pakistani have been VERY clear about it. They know their depth isn't that much. They also know that India is conventionally getting much advanced and with the foreign investments coming in, they now have the money to buy 4.5 gen jets in large numbers. Thus, they've focused on the nuclear umbrella and the threshold.
> 
> Plus, the standoff weapons existed in 2008 too on both sides....why do you think nothing was done???
> 
> Another example is, the NATO....do you think someone can JUST close the doors on NATO and expect NATO to sit back and 'talk' when the nature of this alliance is for military purposes only and to use overwhelming force when need be? There had to be something that made an alliance of all major powers to 'talk' for six months?? You seem smart so I let you figure out the rest.
> 
> I've said it many times before, it doesn't matter what India gets or Pakistan gets. UNLESS India knows 200% it'll neutralize Pakistan's military in the first strike, don't do anything like what you are suggesting...EVER.....for the love of God and for the sake of hundreds of millions of people in the region. SAD part is, if anything serious happened.....you'll STILL be living next to each other. So why not use your energies together in human progress than in testy military conflict where no one would win?




My post is in response of preemptive strike mission.... as you mentioned above..... and please tell me are you guys just updating klj radar year by year???? some one claims KLJ v1 is updated to track 5m2 at 140km..... and some one claims V2-will track 5m2 jet at 140???

aren't JF-17 blk 2 getting updated KLJ-v2 radar.....


----------



## danger007

alimobin memon said:


> Man this is jan 2009. Klj7 has been further improved in range. The posts from jane are back from 2009 it is not updated .
> 
> I think pakistani and Indians both are right. Only real combat can prove what is what. Nobody from both side will agree to the opposing one lets stop this discussion
> 
> 
> 
> kanwa news reported there are no immediate plans of replacing the Klj-7 which has a range of "130km" for a fighter size target.
> 
> probably with just slight tweaks we can achieve 140-150km range..which is more than enough
> 
> and kanwa quoted a high range PAF official
> 
> by farhan 990_9




are you talking about KlJ-7 v1 or v2???? I don't know that PAF is upgrading radar year by year.... im expecting improved radar in block jf-17blk 2....


----------



## alimobin memon

danger007 said:


> are you talking about KlJ-7 v1 or v2???? I don't know that PAF is upgrading radar year by year.... im expecting improved radar in block jf-17blk 2....


There are two klj7 and klj7v2 , however i may have named in correctly for block 1 ... But interview regarding block 2 stated that they are satisfied with the current radar and will be improved then there is full stop"." after that a new paragraph says klj7 can track fighter sized target at 130 km. Since if u are improving radar no one knows how much can that be improved lots of guys have very bad grammar i think the interview just show the detail of current radar in jf17 .


----------



## Storm Force

You have admit it GUYS nothing looks BETTER than the SU30MKI in flight 

awesome looking fighter 







Let me just repeat what the JFT thunder is trying to counter here in the indian SU30MKI ..

A highly evolved flanker with over a decade of maturity already 

Only TVC fighter in the world fully operational TVC engine BESIDES the F22 RAPTOR of USA 

AOA equal to twice or three x that of any non TVC fighter 

BARS pesa radar generation ahead of the ZHUK ME radar which KLJ series is based on 

8-12 BVRS with diffreent seeker both active and semi active to confuse the enemy 

tracks 40 targets can engage 6 targets at once 

data link to 10 other fighters so no need for AWACS or GCC in war zones 

(you need more than rcs to win a air battle) BRUTE POWER, MASSIVE PUNCH BIG ENDURANCE and huge nos in service already with 150 today rising to nearly 275 by 2017.

" is jft ready to fight in this arena " ???????? ARE YOU READY TO RISK ALL ON JFT


----------



## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> awesome looking fighter. BARS pesa radar generation ahead of the ZHUK ME radar which KLJ series is based on
> 
> 8-12 BVRS with diffreent seeker both active and semi active to confuse the enemy
> tracks 40 targets can engage 6 targets at once
> data link to 10 other fighters so no need for AWACS or GCC in war zones
> (you need more than rcs to win a air battle) BRUTE POWER, MASSIVE PUNCH BIG ENDURANCE and huge nos in service already with 150 today rising to nearly 275 by 2017.
> " is jft ready to fight in this arena " ???????? ARE YOU READY TO RISK ALL ON JFT



Here we go again. How old are you really? Liking a certain jet for looks is a personal thing. Between me and my home boys, we all like different types of chicks. Similarly, just because you want to have kids with SU 30 MKI, doesn't mean that everyone else does too. Personally, I think F-14, F-15 and F-16 are some of the best looking birds (google USAF pictures of these jets). F 18, F 22...more capability less looks. F 35, may be but it needs to be deployed first.

SU 30 is a very capable jet, certainly heavier in class than a JFT. But, I have a question for you, is it invisible? Does it take a lock on through an enemy radar? Even with your childish posts, I give you some credit of being smart so hopefully you got the point 
Plus, all the jazz about SU 30 being an awacs, etc, etc is useless in this scenario, due to the proximity. You guys keep forgetting that. The ONLY issue with SU 30 will be the weight it carries due to its heavier class. It can fire two BVR's per incoming jet and can target 3 jets at a time. But again, if incoming jets also fired 2 bvr's on SU 30....it'll need to run too. Other than that, the weapons launching capability will happen at the same distance (may be +_10-20 km of difference if that) so not a whole lot of advantage or element of surprise there as both the aircraft will be pulling maneuvers at the same time due to incoming missiles. 
And THAT would take pilot's focus away from the other side as he'll be working hard to break the incoming bvr lock.

Frankly speaking (this is going to hurt some of the Indian member who consider the SU 30 a 'hanu-jet' like 'hanuman's jet' (like batman's bat vehicle).....originally, the F-14 in late 60's had this radar capability (track 40, fire on 6). Same capability from F 14 was advanced to PESA and is being used in the SU 30's BARS. 
The F 14 used to track 40 targets and would engage 6 of them at any time with Phoenix and Sparrow missiles....the SU 30 does the SAME thing BUT with a better technology (PESA). So the radar tech was upgraded and made resistant to the ECM. But nothing new was added compared to the older F 14 radar's capability (meaning that target tracking didn't go up from 40 to 80 or simultaneous engagement went from 6 at a time to 12, that's what I call 'improvements', had the targeting and tracking capability enhanced, then it'll be 'enhancements'.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## danger007

orangzaib said:


> Here we go again. How old are you really? Liking a certain jet for looks is a personal thing. Between me and my home boys, we all like different types of chicks. Similarly, just because you want to have kids with SU 30 MKI, doesn't mean that everyone else does too. Personally, I think F-14, F-15 and F-16 are some of the best looking birds (google USAF pictures of these jets). F 18, F 22...more capability less looks. F 35, may be but it needs to be deployed first.
> 
> SU 30 is a very capable jet, certainly heavier in class than a JFT. But, I have a question for you, is it invisible? Does it take a lock on through an enemy radar? Even with your childish posts, I give you some credit of being smart so hopefully you got the point
> Plus, all the jazz about SU 30 being an awacs, etc, etc is useless in this scenario, due to the proximity. You guys keep forgetting that. The ONLY issue with SU 30 will be the weight it carries due to its heavier class. It can fire two BVR's per incoming jet and can target 3 jets at a time. But again, if incoming jets also fired 2 bvr's on SU 30....it'll need to run too. Other than that, the weapons launching capability will happen at the same distance (may be +_10-20 km of difference if that) so not a whole lot of advantage or element of surprise there as both the aircraft will be pulling maneuvers at the same time due to incoming missiles.
> And THAT would take pilot's focus away from the other side as he'll be working hard to break the incoming bvr lock.
> 
> Frankly speaking (this is going to hurt some of the Indian member who consider the SU 30 a 'hanu-jet' like 'hanuman's jet' (like batman's bat vehicle).....originally, the F-14 in late 60's had this radar capability (track 40, fire on 6). Same capability from F 14 was advanced to PESA and is being used in the SU 30's BARS.
> The F 14 used to track 40 targets and would engage 6 of them at any time with Phoenix and Sparrow missiles....the SU 30 does the SAME thing BUT with a better technology (PESA). So the radar tech was upgraded and made resistant to the ECM. But nothing new was added compared to the older F 14 radar's capability (meaning that target tracking didn't go up from 40 to 80 or simultaneous engagement went from 6 at a time to 12, that's what I call 'improvements', had the targeting and tracking capability enhanced, then it'll be 'enhancements'.





Who said MKI is an invisible fighter????? Downplaying it capabilities and advancement in the internet forums won't work in combat arena....... Many guys claiming MKI will step into Pak territory , and MKI advantage will be neutralize due sam network ,awacs etc..... We never started any war until now.... we never played offensive role... ok let us assume IAF is in offensive role..... in that scenario MKI's primary target is to demolish ground based radar and sam network in the pak territory ..... hmmm few days back... many JF fan boys claimed..... JF-17 with awacs support will neutralize MKI radar capability ..... Now you fan boys Increased it's radar capability and decreased AWACS role in internet forums...


----------



## Raje amar

orangzaib said:


> Here we go again. How old are you really? Liking a certain jet for looks is a personal thing. Between me and my home boys, we all like different types of chicks. Similarly, just because you want to have kids with SU 30 MKI, doesn't mean that everyone else does too. Personally, I think F-14, F-15 and F-16 are some of the best looking birds (google USAF pictures of these jets). F 18, F 22...more capability less looks. F 35, may be but it needs to be deployed first.
> 
> SU 30 is a very capable jet, certainly heavier in class than a JFT. But, I have a question for you, is it invisible? Does it take a lock on through an enemy radar? Even with your childish posts, I give you some credit of being smart so hopefully you got the point
> Plus, all the jazz about SU 30 being an awacs, etc, etc is useless in this scenario, due to the proximity. You guys keep forgetting that. The ONLY issue with SU 30 will be the weight it carries due to its heavier class. It can fire two BVR's per incoming jet and can target 3 jets at a time. But again, if incoming jets also fired 2 bvr's on SU 30....it'll need to run too. Other than that, the weapons launching capability will happen at the same distance (may be +_10-20 km of difference if that) so not a whole lot of advantage or element of surprise there as both the aircraft will be pulling maneuvers at the same time due to incoming missiles.
> And THAT would take pilot's focus away from the other side as he'll be working hard to break the incoming bvr lock.
> 
> Frankly speaking (this is going to hurt some of the Indian member who consider the SU 30 a 'hanu-jet' like 'hanuman's jet' (like batman's bat vehicle).....originally, the F-14 in late 60's had this radar capability (track 40, fire on 6). Same capability from F 14 was advanced to PESA and is being used in the SU 30's BARS.
> The F 14 used to track 40 targets and would engage 6 of them at any time with Phoenix and Sparrow missiles....the SU 30 does the SAME thing BUT with a better technology (PESA). So the radar tech was upgraded and made resistant to the ECM. But nothing new was added compared to the older F 14 radar's capability (meaning that target tracking didn't go up from 40 to 80 or simultaneous engagement went from 6 at a time to 12, that's what I call 'improvements', had the targeting and tracking capability enhanced, then it'll be 'enhancements'.



so much for a Vs thread. though i forund many of your posts well balanced.

no aircraft in this world in invincible. even F22 mahve chancess to be get shot by Mig 21. nothing big in that.
one of the advantage for Su 30 in the mentioned senario is no of crew 2 in Su30 and 1 in Jft.

while the pilot is busy in manuvaring the plant to evade an in coming missile the co pilot can easily target the enimy jet. where as in Jft the pilot need to concentrate on evading the attack.


----------



## Viper0011.

Raje amar said:


> so much for a Vs thread. though i forund many of your posts well balanced.
> 
> no aircraft in this world in invincible. even F22 mahve chancess to be get shot by Mig 21. nothing big in that.
> one of the advantage for Su 30 in the mentioned senario is no of crew 2 in Su30 and 1 in Jft.
> 
> while the pilot is busy in manuvaring the plant to evade an in coming missile the co pilot can easily target the enimy jet. where as in Jft the pilot need to concentrate on evading the attack.


 

Thanks, I'll take the first line (second phrase) as a compliment. My issue with the post I was responding was that you can't bully people on the forum into how macho SU 30 is. As long as the capability is discussed politely, it makes sense. When you take the jet and show off to annoy serious readers, that's not cool.

If you read my posts, I was making the same point, SU 30 is a heavy class air dominance fighter. The fact that it can target three jets at a time with two capable BVR's is enough for its credibility. But then if someone portrays this as 'this is the shyt and nothing else' , that's incorrect. To your point, the heavy class comes with two pilots (very similar radar capability and overall weapons capability to F 14), so two pilots can work better than one, combined with the weight it carries.


----------



## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> Who said MKI is an invisible fighter????? Downplaying it capabilities and advancement in the internet forums won't work in combat arena....... Many guys claiming MKI will step into Pak territory , and MKI advantage will be neutralize due sam network ,awacs etc..... We never started any war until now.... we never played offensive role... ok let us assume IAF is in offensive role..... in that scenario MKI's primary target is to demolish ground based radar and sam network in the pak territory ..... hmmm few days back... many JF fan boys claimed..... JF-17 with awacs support will neutralize MKI radar capability ..... Now you fan boys Increased it's radar capability and decreased AWACS role in internet forums...



Ok buddy, you are barking up the wroooong tree. I am not downplaying the capability that the SU 30 offers. Nor am I a fan boy of JFT. Having seen planes like F4, F 14, F 15, F 18, etc, I KNOW what they offer, the capability is still 10 years ahead of everyone else in the world. That's just USA for ya!
SU 30 (if you READ my post again, offers challenges, it can target and fire three incoming jets with two bvr's per piece and plus it has two pilots. So, this alone is a LOT of capability. In many ways, you can compare an SU 30 to an F 14, only with more modern cockpit and BARS PESA. The rest is the same (40 track, 6 target). But this is tremendous capability in the Indo-Pak scenario. 
Now the radar range, is a different issue. Go read a few of my other posts on Radar advantage. It'll work if the SU 30 was working as an EW provider. But in case of locking onto the targets and firing BVR's, JFT will do at pretty much at the same time DUE TO THE PROXIMITY of the border and airbases close to it. It's a common sense mathematics. If you fly within a hundred miles of the other plane, you can get an immediate lock on and can fire a bvr missile.....true for either side. This is where the massive radar advantage shortens a little. Doesn't mean that SU 30 becomes a bad jet all of a sudden. 
Unfortunately, the Indian fan boys take everything VERY personally. For the 20th time, SU 30 is not an F 15 or F 35 or F 22....so it is NOT the shyt! No offense to anyone, it's just a reality. It does add credible force to the Indian arsenal but limited to the sub continent only as US, UK, Israel, Russia and China have bigger and better jets or plans to build them.

In a war like scenario, you MISSED the MAIN point again. You said that the SU 30's primary role to demolish the ground based radar structure.....you don't think Pakistan will respond to that???? Do you REALLY think that they haven't factored in the SU 30 and Rafale?
Iraqi invasion to the world seemed like a video game to the world. BUT, only involved people can tell it took MONTHS of scenario running and planning to achieve objectives and minimize casualties. If a superpower like US had to do so much planning, Pakistan is like 7th of India.....I bet their planners spend a lot of time every week in coming up with responses to what if scenarios. So recommending that SU 30 will have a field day......sounds very naive from a strategic planning' perspective. Too much emotions, not a lot of juice!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

orangzaib said:


> Ok buddy, you are barking up the wroooong tree. I am not downplaying the capability that the SU 30 offers. Nor am I a fan boy of JFT. Having seen planes like F4, F 14, F 15, F 18, etc, I KNOW what they offer, the capability is still 10 years ahead of everyone else in the world. That's just USA for ya!
> SU 30 (if you READ my post again, offers challenges, it can target and fire three incoming jets with two bvr's per piece and plus it has two pilots. So, this alone is a LOT of capability. In many ways, you can compare an SU 30 to an F 14, only with more modern cockpit and BARS PESA. The rest is the same (40 track, 6 target). But this is tremendous capability in the Indo-Pak scenario.
> Now the radar range, is a different issue. Go read a few of my other posts on Radar advantage. It'll work if the SU 30 was working as an EW provider. But in case of locking onto the targets and firing BVR's, JFT will do at pretty much at the same time DUE TO THE PROXIMITY of the border and airbases close to it. It's a common sense mathematics. If you fly within a hundred miles of the other plane, you can get an immediate lock on and can fire a bvr missile.....true for either side. This is where the massive radar advantage shortens a little. Doesn't mean that SU 30 becomes a bad jet all of a sudden.
> Unfortunately, the Indian fan boys take everything VERY personally. For the 20th time, SU 30 is not an F 15 or F 35 or F 22....so it is NOT the shyt! No offense to anyone, it's just a reality. It does add credible force to the Indian arsenal but limited to the sub continent only as US, UK, Israel, Russia and China have bigger and better jets or plans to build them.
> 
> In a war like scenario, you MISSED the MAIN point again. You said that the SU 30's primary role to demolish the ground based radar structure.....you don't think Pakistan will respond to that???? Do you REALLY think that they haven't factored in the SU 30 and Rafale?
> Iraqi invasion to the world seemed like a video game to the world. BUT, only involved people can tell it took MONTHS of scenario running and planning to achieve objectives and minimize casualties. If a superpower like US had to do so much planning, Pakistan is like 7th of India.....I bet their planners spend a lot of time every week in coming up with responses to what if scenarios. So recommending that SU 30 will have a field day......sounds very naive from a strategic planning' perspective. Too much emotions, not a lot of juice!



su 30 mki is not f 22 or f 35 agreed but it is certainly in the class of f 15 export versions or say except the very latest ones with aesa radars.by 2015 or so we will get upgrade mki then it can be compared to latest f 15 also. 


Am I right sir

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Alfa-Fighter

SU-30 MKI is more advance then F15, it has 360* radar coverage thrust vector engine which both are not present in f-15


----------



## danger007

orangzaib said:


> Ok buddy, you are barking up the wroooong tree. I am not downplaying the capability that the SU 30 offers. Nor am I a fan boy of JFT. Having seen planes like F4, F 14, F 15, F 18, etc, I KNOW what they offer, the capability is still 10 years ahead of everyone else in the world. That's just USA for ya!
> SU 30 (if you READ my post again, offers challenges, it can target and fire three incoming jets with two bvr's per piece and plus it has two pilots. So, this alone is a LOT of capability. In many ways, you can compare an SU 30 to an F 14, only with more modern cockpit and BARS PESA. The rest is the same (40 track, 6 target). But this is tremendous capability in the Indo-Pak scenario.
> Now the radar range, is a different issue. Go read a few of my other posts on Radar advantage. It'll work if the SU 30 was working as an EW provider. But in case of locking onto the targets and firing BVR's, JFT will do at pretty much at the same time DUE TO THE PROXIMITY of the border and airbases close to it. It's a common sense mathematics. If you fly within a hundred miles of the other plane, you can get an immediate lock on and can fire a bvr missile.....true for either side. This is where the massive radar advantage shortens a little. Doesn't mean that SU 30 becomes a bad jet all of a sudden.
> Unfortunately, the Indian fan boys take everything VERY personally. For the 20th time, SU 30 is not an F 15 or F 35 or F 22....so it is NOT the shyt! No offense to anyone, it's just a reality. It does add credible force to the Indian arsenal but limited to the sub continent only as US, UK, Israel, Russia and China have bigger and better jets or plans to build them.
> 
> In a war like scenario, you MISSED the MAIN point again. You said that the SU 30's primary role to demolish the ground based radar structure.....you don't think Pakistan will respond to that???? Do you REALLY think that they haven't factored in the SU 30 and Rafale?
> Iraqi invasion to the world seemed like a video game to the world. BUT, only involved people can tell it took MONTHS of scenario running and planning to achieve objectives and minimize casualties. If a superpower like US had to do so much planning, Pakistan is like 7th of India.....I bet their planners spend a lot of time every week in coming up with responses to what if scenarios. So recommending that SU 30 will have a field day......sounds very naive from a strategic planning' perspective. Too much emotions, not a lot of juice!




What are you??? do you understand what i said ??? read once again please..... the thread is to counter MKI..... instead of using barking so and so why don't you stick to the thread title ....


----------



## Pak47

danger007 said:


> What are you??? do you understand what i said ??? read once again please..... the thread is to counter MKI..... instead of using barking so and so why don't you stick to the thread title ....



The Thread Tittle states 

"How PAF should counter the Su-30 Mki" 

And all you're doing along with a few other members is making it into a Su-30 Vs Paf thread.

Unless you have an idea.. about how.. and not how Mki is the god of all planes.. you are also derailing the thread. 

On topic- I'm sure Paf has a plan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

Pak47 said:


> The Thread Tittle states
> 
> "How PAF should counter the Su-30 Mki"
> 
> And all you're doing along with a few other members is making it into a Su-30 Vs Paf thread.
> 
> Unless you have an idea.. about how.. and not how Mki is the god of all planes.. you are also derailing the thread.
> 
> On topic- I'm sure Paf has a plan.



please enlighten me where i derailed thread???? can you point out of those posts.


----------



## Rain

The basic problem is that unlike indian Defense authorities both Pakistani and Chinese are very secretive, they dont disclose anything until and unless it is necessitated by their strategy, So what indians do? they have two options either to agree with senior members who has some inside infos or should quit the forum as tehy will never get the official sources/claims for capabilities of pakistani/chinses systems.

Pakistani members are requested not to divulge any important infos just to quench the thrist of indians. rather they should be careful about national interest. wining an argument with an indian not so important.


----------



## fast and furious

Rain said:


> *The basic problem is that unlike indian Defense authorities both Pakistani and Chinese are very secretive*, they dont disclose anything until and unless it is necessitated by their strategy, So what indians do? they have two options either to agree with senior members who has some inside infos or should quit the forum as tehy will never get the official sources/claims for capabilities of pakistani/chinses systems.
> 
> Pakistani members are requested not to divulge any important infos just to quench the thrist of indians. rather they should be careful about national interest. wining an argument with an indian not so important.


 

And what makes you think that all the info about everything that India has, is in the public domain.lol.

When faced with a dead end (read nothing similar in quality) Indians dont go around on defence forums claiming they have "inside info which is supposed to be secret" or quoting their "defensive doctrine",cos the Indian defence authorities are secretive about being 'secret' as well.


Go figure.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Pak47 said:


> The Thread Tittle states
> 
> "How PAF should counter the Su-30 Mki"
> 
> And all you're doing along with a few other members is making it into a Su-30 Vs Paf thread.
> 
> Unless you have an idea.. about how.. and not how Mki is the god of all planes.. you are also derailing the thread.
> 
> On topic- I'm sure Paf has a plan.



SU-30 is a good machine

there is no doubt about it. but nothing is perfect. there are issues that are highlighted by the American pilots in Red flag and few things picked up by the OP which again were confirmed by GAMBIT, there is some issue of sensitivity and love for the plane and fanboys dont like being said against this monster. 
the thread is nothing but an amateur attempt to hypothetically discuss how a weaker and smaller adversary must prepare itself if it is faced with something like SU-30. 

what really is planned and happens is anyone's guess. Indians can make a thread about possible confrontation with say J-20 with what they have as of now. they might conclude that whatever is in their airforce is enough to deter and defeat J-20, Chinese might disagree, same is the case with Americans regarding their prize F-22 they dont take criticism against it lightly.

a little bit of open heart and mind helps with the discussion we might reach to any conclusion but if its without insults and rhetoric then it shows maturity and confidence.



fast and furious said:


> And what makes you think that all the info about everything that India has, is in the public domain.lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Go figure.



Yaar,

relax... its just an open forum of defence enthusiasts. nothing personal. dont take it to heart. people who have the first hand knowledge will never discuss it openly so whatever is in the public domain is left for interpretation.

disagreement and controversy is a natural by-product of such discussion which causes interest and heated debate. now tell me.. how far this thread will go if thread had said, SU-30 is best plane since the invention of wheel? and all had agreed and praised it?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Storm Force

The QUE4STION " how to counter SU30MKI " ????????????

is not rocket sicence 

TO COUNTER A SUPERIOR NUMBERED FORCE in this case 150+ SU30MKI today or 272 su30mki by 2017 you require 

1. Superior nos of less capable aircraft with force multiplers to overwhelm the mki 
or 
2. If you are outnumbered THEN YOU NEED better QUALITY superior technology to OUT GUN your MKI 

the JFT THUNDER offers neither of these options today or in the future......ie THE JFT nos are barely 2 sqds and inuction rate is far slower then was being predicted in PDF and JFT is cerainly no tech edge over MKI where a outnumbered PAF could tackle MKI AND surely win the day...


----------



## Last Hope

Storm Force said:


> The QUE4STION " how to counter SU30MKI " ????????????
> 
> is not rocket sicence
> 
> TO COUNTER A SUPERIOR NUMBERED FORCE in this case 150+ SU30MKI today or 272 su30mki by 2017 you require
> 
> 1. Superior nos of less capable aircraft with force multiplers to overwhelm the mki
> or
> * 2. If you are outnumbered THEN YOU NEED better QUALITY superior technology to OUT GUN your MKI
> *
> the JFT THUNDER offers neither of these options today or in the future......ie THE JFT nos are barely 2 sqds and inuction rate is far slower then was being predicted in PDF and JFT is cerainly no tech edge over MKI where a outnumbered PAF could tackle MKI AND surely win the day...



In the future, JF-17 will be capable for second option you mentioned. I cannot comment on will it be superior to SU-30, but it can engage into a dog fight with it.

Plus, number 3 you overlooked is long-range SAM.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

MKI will cause more damage than JF-17 or any other jets in IAF inventory as of now...... that is why thread is still alive... keep your ego's aside..... whateva we discuss here is just probabilities only, Combat arena is completely different...


----------



## fast and furious

Irfan Baloch said:


> SU-30 is a good machine
> 
> there is no doubt about it. but nothing is perfect. there are issues that are highlighted by the American pilots in Red flag and few things picked up by the OP which again were confirmed by GAMBIT, there is some issue of sensitivity and love for the plane and fanboys dont like being said against this monster.
> the thread is nothing but an amateur attempt to hypothetically discuss how a weaker and smaller adversary must prepare itself if it is faced with something like SU-30.
> 
> what really is planned and happens is anyone's guess. Indians can make a thread about possible confrontation with say J-20 with what they have as of now. they might conclude that whatever is in their airforce is enough to deter and defeat J-20, Chinese might disagree, same is the case with Americans regarding their prize F-22 they dont take criticism against it lightly.
> 
> a little bit of open heart and mind helps with the discussion we might reach to any conclusion but if its without insults and rhetoric then it shows maturity and confidence.
> 
> 
> 
> Yaar,
> 
> relax... its just an open forum of defence enthusiasts. nothing personal. dont take it to heart. people who have the first hand knowledge will never discuss it openly so whatever is in the public domain is left for interpretation.
> 
> disagreement and controversy is a natural by-product of such discussion which causes interest and heated debate. now tell me.. how far this thread will go if thread had said,* SU-30 is best plane since the invention of wheel? *and all had agreed and praised it?




Irfan Bhai, I never mentioned SU-30 or its superiority in my post.Honestly I am not an aviation expert.Although I have learnt quite a lot through this forum.

I was only replying to the policy of India Vs Policy of China,Pakistan about secrecy.
Your post seems to suggest you took it to the heart.


----------



## Viper0011.

Alfa-Fighter said:


> SU-30 MKI is more advance then F15, it has 360* radar coverage thrust vector engine which both are not present in f-15


 

INCORRECT!!! SU 30 is in the class of F 14, offers similar characteristics and with some new tech such as TVC and BARS (which was ALSO modeled after F 14 - track 40, lock on 6). It is very lethal for the region its in but can't compare apples to the beast! SU 30's modified from the original F 14 technology to 2012 obviously so it's a couple of notches above the good old F 14.

If so was the case, Israel, Saudi Arabia and others would be looking into procuring some (including the West, direct or indirect like they've done before). 

F 15 is a much better platform. F 22 Raptor is BUILT upon F 15. It's flight performance within its flight envelop is unmatched so far. 

Just because you guys had a chance to fly against F 15 at Nellis, doesn't mean that you actually know the capability all the way. Remember, the US designs such exercises to give the other party advantageous situations and to test and train how USAF / USN pilots perform against harsh conditions. PLUS they are really evaluating flight dimensions of a certain jet like SU 30 or whoever is visiting Nellis.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## manofwar

orangzaib said:


> INCORRECT!!! SU 30 is in the class of F 14, offers similar characteristics and with some new tech such as TVC and BARS (which was ALSO modeled after F 14 - track 40, lock on 6). It is very lethal for the region its in but can't compare apples to the beast! SU 30's modified from the original F 14 technology to 2012 obviously so it's a couple of notches above the good old F 14.
> 
> If so was the case, Israel, Saudi Arabia and others would be looking into procuring some (including the West, direct or indirect like they've done before).
> 
> F 15 is a much better platform. F 22 Raptor is BUILT upon F 15. It's flight performance within its flight envelop is unmatched so far.
> 
> Just because you guys had a chance to fly against F 15 at Nellis, doesn't mean that you actually know the capability all the way. Remember, the US designs such exercises to give the other party advantageous situations and to test and train how USAF / USN pilots perform against harsh conditions. PLUS they are really evaluating flight dimensions of a certain jet like SU 30 or whoever is visiting Nellis.


Are you aware that you are comparing an early fourth generation fighter with a 4++ generation fighter, *by USAF standards*???
Obviously you have just compared the Specifications of the two on wikipedia. But dude Specs are not everything!! Ask Gambit, he knows much better about this than most of the guys at PDF...........


----------



## Black Widow

manofwar said:


> Are you aware that you are comparing an early fourth generation fighter with a 4++ generation fighter, *by USAF standards*???
> Obviously you have just compared the Specifications of the two on wikipedia. But dude Specs are not everything!! Ask Gambit, he knows much better about this than most of the guys at PDF...........




He said nothing Wrong, Su30 rank in class of F14 (and F15). (By weight, role). You read his post in correct perspective. 



> F 15 is a much better platform. F 22 Raptor is BUILT upon F 15. It's flight performance within its flight envelop is unmatched so far.



I can only say "Lack of knowledge". F15 was made in reply of MiG25 and F22 was totally new philosophy. SU27 series was reply to F15 (Not F14) as Orange-Zeib claims.


Famous Quote: Russia saw the need to have a capable fighetr (Like F15). One fighter for all need, MiG29 was not the platform delivering it. Sukhoi Design beurue came with new prototype to counter USA Dominance (F15). T10 was reply to F15.


----------



## alimobin memon

Black Widow said:


> He said nothing Wrong, Su30 rank in class of F14 (and F15). (By weight, role). You read his post in correct perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> I can only say "Lack of knowledge". F15 was made in reply of MiG25 and F22 was totally new philosophy. SU27 series was reply to F15 (Not F14) as Orange-Zeib claims.
> 
> 
> Famous Quote: Russia saw the need to have a capable fighetr (Like F15). One fighter for all need, MiG29 was not the platform delivering it. Sukhoi Design beurue came with new prototype to counter USA Dominance (F15). T10 was reply to F15.



United states has classified different roles to the specific designs like F15 for air dominance , while f16 for mig29 and FA-18 as naval airforce solution. F15 was designed before f16 and f18 , mig29 and su27. Mig 25 was never a air dominance fighter but a very high speed interceptor,In 1960's united states already discovered that manueverability is more important than high speed , but in addition to it if a mach 2.4++ was needed for air-dominance which can compete in any role. MIG25 shocked the USAF because of it's speed only F4 phantom couldn't do anything to counter it's speed so F15 program came into existence. Mig29 and Su27 were later proposed to answer the F15 program.
F22 airframe is actually an F15 designed with polymers , almost no edges to give an super stealth capabilities. like F35 design is based on F16 but changed later with many different aerodynamic designs however considered by many as stealth F16.


----------



## joekrish

don't think the JF 17's are a threat as of today but with the future updates things could take a turn ( not taking in to account the MKI's will also be going in for an update) though I'm very sure from an Indians perspective we will fear the F 16's more than the JF's.


----------



## ANPP

non of PAF a/c is able to counter the MKI, what ever it is F 16, JF 17 or new a/c which will induct in near future .

so best solution for PAK is improve their ground based anti a/c assets to counter the increase power of the IAF & MKI


----------



## mylovepakistan

ANPP said:


> non of PAF a/c is able to counter the MKI, what ever it is F 16, JF 17 or new a/c which will induct in near future .
> 
> so best solution for PAK is improve their ground based anti a/c assets to counter the increase power of the IAF & MKI



welcome KID to defence.pk

nice start with ur 1st post....LOL!!!

now go to 1st page before posting another post...

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Pak47

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Poor English ?
> he NEVER said that, and its not funny but Stupid, nevermind it's expected from YOU
> Not worth replying ,until post something constructive to discuss.



You think im going to take the time to proof read everything on a defence forum?? 

This is what he said

"non of PAF a/c is able to counter the MKI, what ever it is F 16, JF 17 or new a/c which will induct in near future."

So when he says it its not stupid, because he's indian... but when i give an example of how foolish that post was.. all of a sudden my post is foolish and being bashed on.. 

Then you go on to insult personally. 

That post is foolish whether you admit it or not. Enough thread de-railing. Lets get back on topic, and not argue over simple posts.



On topic- Paf's im sure has discussed this.. and we the public, might never know what it is. F'16 is a ruthless machine btw.. im sure thats a part of their plan.


----------



## Darth Vader

LOL the THIng Is em watching this thread IS going insane For many days 

1st of all are u who discussing this thread is any of 1 U are IN Paf Or Iaf IF yes then Just those Reply and those Who are Just dream pilots well Dsnt matter wht u Say Cz When a pilot is trained he has 2 achieve the goal with minimum resources 

Cz that's the part Of our training and i can bet many of u r being think tanks of Iaf or Paf U guys never even saw the Cockpit in ur real life so plz let the Guys 2 their Job and have a life  No offence i didnt wanted to offend some body but well if need to listen the truth u need 2 Guys 1 who can listen and 1 who can tell


----------



## danger007

MKI reserve some advantages like 2 pilots, greater pay load, maneuverability, speed , combat radius etc.....

JF-17 reserves one advantage Low RCS.... point out if there is any other advantages please don't bring sam network....

Even F-117 shot down in serbia with neva..... No one claiming MKI can't be shot down.... but jf-17 have less chances than MKI ......


----------



## Storm Force

Danger007

YOU POST IS THE MOST SENSIBLE POST in a saga of 35 pages of circles ranting and raving. 

" Like the guy said " other than RCS IS THERE ANOTHER ADVANTAGE IN THE JFT over the SU30MKI ???

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

Storm Force said:


> Danger007
> 
> YOU POST IS THE MOST SENSIBLE POST in a saga of 35 pages of circles ranting and raving.
> 
> " Like the guy said " other than RCS IS THERE ANOTHER ADVANTAGE IN THE JFT over the SU30MKI ???



Count 36 bro...... one chinese member(martian) said to reduce cost F-35 made with cheap composites etc......

isn't it applicable to JF-17 which costs around 15-20 Million $$... world cheapest(cost) 4th gen fighter .....
Instead of ADA they used C language but it can't reduce that much cost i think......

no offense these are my doubt after reading martian2 post ...

I will say one thing JF-17 is cost effective fighter....


----------



## Zabaniyah

danger007 said:


> Count 36 bro...... one chinese member(martian) said to reduce cost F-35 made with cheap composites etc......
> 
> isn't it applicable to JF-17 which costs around 15-20 Million $$... world cheapest(cost) 4th gen fighter .....
> *Instead of ADA they used C language but it can't reduce that much cost i think......*
> 
> no offense these are my doubt after reading martian2 post ...
> 
> I will say one thing JF-17 is cost effective fighter....



So does the F-35 and F-16 block 60.


----------



## danger007

Zabaniya said:


> So does the F-35 and F-16 block 60.



please read completely..... i said it can't reduce cost that much...


----------



## Donatello

danger007 said:


> MKI reserve some advantages like 2 pilots, greater pay load, maneuverability, speed , combat radius etc.....
> 
> JF-17 reserves one advantage Low RCS.... point out if there is any other advantages please don't bring sam network....
> 
> Even F-117 shot down in serbia with neva..... No one claiming MKI can't be shot down.... but jf-17 have less chances than MKI ......




Good post......but keep in mind that in any air war, a number of aircraft have to be lost. In JF-17s case, these are cheap and readily available.

Secondly, JF-17 is still in infancy....long way to go. Like proposed RWR and EW suites and as technology matures, maybe better radars and guided BVR missiles....


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Donatello said:


> Good post......but keep in mind that in any air war, a number of aircraft have to be lost. In JF-17s case, these are cheap and readily available.
> 
> Secondly, JF-17 is still in infancy....long way to go. Like proposed RWR and EW suites and as technology matures, maybe better radars and guided BVR missiles....


The chances of jf 17 shooting down a mki will very less so is the numbers also. 
IMO your current f 16 will have more chances chances of shooting down mki (yes I am aware of the chest thumping claims but still ). 

in near future also this is not going to change because like jf 17 mki also will undergo upgrades.


----------



## Viper0011.

manofwar said:


> Are you aware that you are comparing an early fourth generation fighter with a 4++ generation fighter, *by USAF standards*???
> 
> Obviously you have just compared the Specifications of the two on wikipedia. But dude Specs are not everything!! Ask Gambit, he knows much better about this than most of the guys at PDF...........


 
Am I aware? Yes, VERY much so. Can't get into further details. But BARS was built on F 14 tech from pulse doppler to PESA. It's the evolution. F 16 and other jets STILL use the same engines. Due to the advanced avionics, you can put a label on it like 4++ generation but it's really progress in the avionics and the flight control computer module plus lessons learned from the engines. The point is not that I am trying to degrade SU 30, the point is that this was really a Russian response to F 14 - F 18 (finally, it took a LONG time). 

If you have a capable electronics house (like Us, Israel, Japan, etc), it is not hard to take old tech and convert it into the new tech. In fact, a great example is LCD tv's, companies that had HUGE inventories of LCD tv's are now swapping their main boards and light emitters out and replacing them with faster processor, LED light emission kits....resulting in the first generation of LED tv's (which are really converted LCD tv in reality). Similarly, a capable electronic house can use the AESA or PESA tech and mimic the pulse doppler characteristics. That's entirely do-able, but results in a much better products like BARS. 

Second, I haven't read the infamous 'Wikipedia'. I don't read 'other' sources that people write to. I don't even write stuff unless I know its authentic and there are multiple ways to verify it. Lastly, I don't speak on issues that I don't know. I am here to share what I know (to the extent it CAN be shared, and to learn some new stuff.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kompromat

Wrote it two years ago , F-16C perspective.



> Comparing a Multi role fighter with a heavy air superiority fighter jet simply just does not make any sense to me.
> 
> Anyway lets do it.
> 
> *Radar comparison *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As we know F-16c or Block 50/52+ comes with a V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities.
> 
> *F-16 Radar Features*
> 
> The AN/APG-68 radar is a long range up to *300 km* and a Pulse-doppler radar designed by Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) to replace AN/APG-66 radar in the F-16 Fighting Falcon. The AN/APG-68 radar system consists of the following line-replaceable units:
> Antenna
> Dual Mode Transmitter (DMT)
> Modular Low-power radio frequency (MLPRF)
> Programmable signal processor (PSP)
> 
> The AN/APG-68(V)9 radar is the latest development. Besides the increase in scan range compared to the previous version, it has a Synthetic aperture radar (SAR) capability.
> 
> *Benefits*
> 
> 30 percent increase in detection range.
> 
> Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference;
> Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode (a search-while-track mode)
> 
> Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While Scan mode.
> 
> Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode;
> Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons
> 
> Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode;
> Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.
> 
> *Su-30mki radar*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features.
> 
> N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40&#8211;50 km.
> 
> *F-16 Engine:*
> 
> One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
> 
> *Performance:*
> 
> Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range *2450 miles* with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's)
> *
> Dogfight capability.*
> 
> F-16 is meant is the most successful dog fighter ever created it has over a 100 kills without sustaining a single loss ( Lots of them are from PAF)
> 
> This video speaks for itself that nothing matches the Viper in a dogfight specially when we take Block 52's Joint helmet mounted cuing system or JHMCS which is simply a look at shoot at capability to fire its infrared guided missiles so the Viper would not need TVC .
> 
> http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/KWSN-
> Men/339/
> 
> *Introduction video*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Block 52+ Cockpit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VS
> 
> SU30 Mki cockpit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *F16 B-52 A2A missiles *
> 
> Air-to-air missiles:
> 2× AIM-7 Sparrow
> 6× AIM-9 Sidewinder
> 6× IRIS-T or
> 6× AIM-120D AMRAAM Range 130+*miles!*
> 
> *SU-30 A2A missiles*
> 
> Air to Air Missiles:
> 
> 10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
> 10 × Astra missile active radar homing medium range AAM, 80 km
> 6 × R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM *130 There is a difference between Miles and Kms isn't it??*
> 
> 6 × R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km
> 2 × R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km
> 2 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
> 6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> So my conclusion is that Tough SU-30 is a whole different class of fighter tough it is Twin engine , Dual cockpit and it can carry a hell load of weapons and has a greater range.
> 
> In a BVR fight F-16 Block 52+ with a range of 300kms and SAAB Erie AWACS and AIM-120D will shoot down an SU-30 way before.
> 
> But the issue is Pakistan has ordered a AIM-120C variant which has a range of only 105km so Pakistan must buy a D variant or it " could " be on our order already.
> 
> In a dogfight.
> 
> PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!
> 
> Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.
> 
> Regards:

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Viper0011.

Black Widow said:


> He said nothing Wrong, Su30 rank in class of F14 (and F15). (By weight, role). You read his post in correct perspective.
> 
> 
> I can only say "Lack of knowledge". F15 was made in reply of MiG25 and F22 was totally new philosophy. SU27 series was reply to F15 (Not F14) as Orange-Zeib claims.



Again, folks aren't reading it right and I can't entertain more detail than what's out here. The goal was to counter the F 15. That's what the world knows. BUT, the real challenge was the US Navy.....USAF doesn't go everywhere. It is the NAVY due to mighty career battle groups that is EVERYWHERE...so you REALLY had to deal with the F 14. F 15's are land based and usually within the US and in some remote basis. Chances of them seeing Russian flankers were a LOT less than the F 14 dealing with them. Plus, the F 14's Radar was available through IRAN and through others. It was relatively older tech so you could find it somewhere for money. A couple of countries used that to their advantages and BARS is a result of that.


----------



## MilSpec

Aeronaut said:


> Wrote it two years ago , F-16C perspective.
> So my conclusion is that Tough SU-30 is a whole different class of fighter tough it is Twin engine , Dual cockpit and it can carry a hell load of weapons and has a greater range.
> 
> *In a BVR fight F-16 Block 52+ with a range of 300kms and SAAB Erie AWACS and AIM-120D will shoot down an SU-30 way before*.
> 
> But the issue is Pakistan has ordered a AIM-120C variant which has a range of only 105km so Pakistan must buy a D variant or it " could " be on our order already.
> 
> In a dogfight.
> 
> PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!
> 
> Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS



The conclusion by the esteemed moderator very easily states"In a BVR fight F-16 Block 52+ with a range of 300kms and SAAB Erie AWACS and AIM-120D will shoot down an SU-30 way before." erstwhile deliberately ignoring *Phalcon Awacs* and R77 RVV AE-SD coupled with MKI, all three of them out-range and outgun mentioned pakistani systems. Although the Erieye systems gives teeth to blk 52, i fail to see how Phalcons systems will not be able to see blk52 the other way around, Apart from that, due to sheer numbers of MKI's in the armory, PAF's fewer aircrafts will face multiple salvos of passive seeking and active seeking BVR's launched, even before they begin see the MKI blip on sweedish awacs.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Kompromat

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are on the right track---but fixed assets---even though they are extremely potent are also extremely vulnerable to enemy strike capabilities---. So---you ought to have an x number of air superiority fighter aircraft with potent BVR's to compliment your long range surface to air missiles.



MK , you know quite well that Air combat is dangerous business , too much depends on it. Therefore i believe , when you have an adversary like the Su-30s you need to have secondary measures in place ie a SAM wall.

Flankers produce huge heat and radar signature , according to some sources the ground based AESA radar platform or else air borne AWACs can detect Flankers as far as 400kms. Considering the speed of those flankers you actually don't have much time to react , therefore the fixed assets can minimize the attack capability of a Flanker pilot who are supposed to be aggressors and therefore are prone to take risks.

All of us know what a PAF pilot is , what he is capable of doing the IAF knows that even better. That does not mean we should lodge all eggs in one basket and do not provide our pilots with sufficient and credible Air Defense system to get assisted with.
Even though the days of Kargil when there was a huge imbalance mainly because of the lack of BVR capability with PAF are gone. Still we do need to have long & mid range high tech surface to air missile systems.

I am sure the PAF is aware of that and has been currently looking for such solutions.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ion-advanced-surface-air-missile-systems.html

First the air space penetration has to be avoided and contained , then we have less to worry about when it comes to WVR combat where any Indian pilot flying anything would not go home so easy.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Mosamania

The Su-27 family series is an extremely proficient and capable Air-Air platform, however like all jests it has certain weaknesses most notably the large RCS and heat signature and its radar that lights up like a flashlight in the dark due to its enormous power.

So if we are to to put an ancient weapon as an equivalent to the Su-27 series it would be the spear, on the other hand the F-16 behaves much like a sword with a more subtle radar, heat and RCS signatures (I am talking about the BVR capable ones of course). So in Air-Air if the Su-30 sees the F-16 earlier mainly due to the ground based radars it will rely heavily on or the Phalcon AWACs to a lesser degree then the F-16 has too much of a challenge on its hands, however if the F-16s are intercepting an incoming Su-30 with Erieye then the Su-30s are the ones at a disadvantage. 

If it came down to a knife fight then both are equally deadly with Su-30 boasting high maneuverability and (In and out) energy and the F-16 combining small size with maneuverability and more of a (hit and run) tactic which it does exceptionally well as demonstrated by Israeli Air Force in the 80s then both are equal footing even if I dare say the F-16 is on a slight advantage but just a very slight one. 

So it all comes down on who employs their tactics better and flawlessly in either offensive or defensive operations. And quite honestly the only AirCraft I see that can counter Su-30s in PAF service right now is the Block 52s, maybe the Jf-17 in the future once it has the upgraded radars, EW suites, BVR capability and AWACs interoperability but as of now the Block 52s are the key player here and maybe other F-16s Block 15 MLUs as support to it will give the Su-30 an overwhelming challenge. 

How about we go into a deeper analysis?
The Su-27 series is at heart an Air-Air platform because the Soviets when designing it from the get go wanted:
1- a counter to F-14 and F-15 in USAF and USN inventory.
2- a highly agile energy conservative platform ergo the begun designing it from the wings and around the wings (Note the F-15 was designed from its radar and around its radar).
3- a fighter they can send from their base in east Germany to France and back (where the bulk of Air-Air combat would have been in).
4- a fighter that can loggerhead F-15, F-14 in the 360 degrees 3 dimensional tail hunting turn (Hence the very important Cobra maneuver a hallmark of this jet).

Now let's see what the American designed the F-16 for from the get go:
1- a fighter jet capable of taking out multiple ground targets in a single sortie (Hence the large payload proportionate to its relative size).
2- An interceptor (Note: not an Air Supperiority fighter) capable of holding its own against the Migs at the time (Hence the very excellent maneuverability it employs which made it a very attractive jet for US allies and the primary secret to its high sales).
3- High thrust to weight ratio to give it more energy during Dogfights (F-16 pilots always talk about "The kick" they feel when the engine starts running on the runway if you noticed). 
4- high loitre time for more time in the air to hunt and locate and Bomb targets.

So comparing the two kind of doesn't make sense to me.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## turbo charged

in order to get rid of BVR's fired from su-30 we should practice low altitude flying....like flying 20 feet from the ground and level so that BVR gets confused and hits the trees or a flying the plane at 20 feet for sometime then a vertical climb at 60,70 degree...i am sure that will take care of the BVR.
we should develop some software like cruise control to be installed in cockpit to control the altitude....making sure it flies lowest possible to the ground without hitting trees or poles...
google maps can used to update the software....sonar signalling can help...sonar getting out of airplane... hitting the ground ...comming back to airplane and then adjusting its altitude.


----------



## batmannow

turbo charged said:


> in order to get rid of BVR's fired from su-30 we should practice low altitude flying....like flying 20 feet from the ground and level so that BVR gets confused and hits the trees or a flying the plane at 20 feet for sometime then a vertical climb at 60,70 degree...i am sure that will take care of the BVR.
> we should develop some software like cruise control to be installed in cockpit to control the altitude....making sure it flies lowest possible to the ground without hitting trees or poles...
> google maps can used to update the software....sonar signalling can help...sonar getting out of airplane... hitting the ground ...comming back to airplane and then adjusting its altitude.


Sory sir,
By your reasoning , we wouldn't need plannes then, better we get gOod helios?
With better radar,s & AAMs?

Your reasoning , maybe good in some areas bt a whole airwar can't be fought , in this manner!


----------



## MastanKhan

turbo charged said:


> in order to get rid of BVR's fired from su-30 we should practice low altitude flying....like flying 20 feet from the ground and level so that BVR gets confused and hits the trees or a flying the plane at 20 feet for sometime then a vertical climb at 60,70 degree...i am sure that will take care of the BVR.
> we should develop some software like cruise control to be installed in cockpit to control the altitude....making sure it flies lowest possible to the ground without hitting trees or poles...
> google maps can used to update the software....sonar signalling can help...sonar getting out of airplane... hitting the ground ...comming back to airplane and then adjusting its altitude.



Hi,

Thank you for your post---that is what the paf been doing for the last so many years.

Also a consideration that was mentioned by orangzeb---. The su30 stationed 50 miles to a 100 miles from pak border or bases are extremely vulnerable as well.

The spool up time for the jf 17 is much shorter than that of the su30---. Once the jf17 gets airborne from kamra---the su30 based in srinagar won't even have time for its engine to spool up to take off power before the jf's are right on top of the base---.

I firmly believe that there are those on the indian side---who either out of ignorance or for genuine concern for pakistan ( which means that there are those in india who don't want india to come ahead in a conflict ) have deployed the su30's so close to the pak border---.

Looking at the time that he su30 can stay in the air there was no reason for it to be closer to the border----it is just like the usaf deplying the b2 bomber in qatar to bomb iran.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Harry Potter

According to US diplomatic cables F-16's will give just a few days breather to PAf before it is destroyed completely:



> 3. (C) While we understand New Delhi's opposition to the program, the reality is that this program will not degrade India's overwhelming air superiority over Pakistan.
> 
> Given India's overwhelming military superiority, this would only be a few days, but these days would allow critical time to mediate and prevent nuclear conflict.
> 12. (C) India enjoys an almost 2-1 advantage (736 to 370) over Pakistan in advanced multi-purpose fighters.Pakistan's shortfalls in training and tactics multiply India's edge.Pakistan also plans to buy/jointly produce 150 inferior JF-17 fighters from China, but it is unclear how they will pay for them.
> 
> 13. (C) The sale of new aircraft and 500 AMRAAM missiles would give Pakistan beyond visual range capability, but Pakistan will acquire the ability to employ this capability with either the new buy or MLU aircraft. Canceling the new buy would thus only delay the process by 18 months. Successful employment of this capability by the PAF, however, will take 2-3 years and a significant revision of doctrine and tactics. The Indian Air Force already routinely trains on existing beyond visual range tactics


The author is a very senior US diplomat-Anne W. Patterson.

Cable Viewer

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## TaimiKhan

Harry Potter said:


> According to US diplomatic cables F-16's will give just a few days breather to PAf before it is destroyed completely:
> 
> 
> The author is a very senior US diplomat-Anne W. Patterson.
> 
> Cable Viewer



being a senior diplomat doesn't means he/she has authority on defence related matters. 

2:1 superiority doesn't means India will be put all its 736 jets in action against Pakistan, plus she has no idea that aerial warfare is not just about dog fights or based on 1 to 1 fights, ground based system also come into action, thus the attrition rates are not left to just dog fighting. She should know in previous wars India had superiority also, but PAF did not got destroyed. 

And i don't get pakistan's shortfalls in training & tactics thingy, when did we become inferior in training & tactics, considering the reputation PAF enjoys in the eyes of other air forces. She seriously needs to know about stuff she is talking about. 

She is mentioning 150 inferior JF-17s way back in 2009 when we did not even had a single sqd raised, so no idea why she comparing a non existent fighter jet at the time with the IAF fighters. 

*Her cable is just a justification for the US to give Pak F-16s, while she has no idea about the capabilities of PAF, and her cable has nothing to do with the topic. 


So better not to bring in nonsense stuff.*

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## The Deterrent

Although the thread is about PAF, but another dimension is also present through which Pakistan can effectively encounter IAF. That is, the destruction/disabling of aircraft on ground by attacking the airbases with ballistic missiles.
The formidable Ghaznavi SRBM (range 300 km), which has a larger volume in the warhead assembly, can be effectively armed with Cluster Munitions to attack the key Airbases of IAF, such as the ones housing SU-30s.


----------



## TaimiKhan

AhaseebA said:


> Although the thread is about PAF, but another dimension is also present through which Pakistan can effectively encounter IAF. That is, the destruction/disabling of aircraft on ground by attacking the airbases with ballistic missiles.
> The formidable Ghaznavi SRBM (range 300 km), which has a larger volume in the warhead assembly, can be effectively armed with Cluster Munitions to attack the key Airbases of IAF, such as the ones housing SU-30s.



*Indian members, plz don't bring in your missiles and stuff like that as the thread is about PAF & its countering IAF / Su-30. *


----------



## Harry Potter

TaimiKhan said:


> being a senior diplomat doesn't means he/she has authority on defence related matters


She definitely consulted the Military attache to Pakistan.THat's the Standard Operating procedure throughout the world for writing Defence related cables.Similarly for Intel related Cables the Intelligence Attache is consulted(In the case of USA CIA).



TaimiKhan said:


> 2:1 superiority doesn't means India will be put all its 736 jets in action against Pakistan, plus she has no idea that aerial warfare is not just about dog fights or based on 1 to 1 fights, ground based system also come into action, thus the attrition rates are not left to just dog fighting. She should know in previous wars India had superiority also, but PAF did not got destroyed.
> 
> And i don't get pakistan's shortfalls in training & tactics thingy, when did we become inferior in training & tactics, considering the reputation PAF enjoys in the eyes of other air forces. She seriously needs to know about stuff she is talking about.



Read the April 2004 edition of Aviation Week & Space Technology;it mentions that IAF pilots changed their tactics Successfully in the middle of a Dogfight something which even IDF pilots will be not be very confident about.I don't think you know that IAF Su-30MKI pilots fly 250-300 hours a year(One of the highest in the world).
Remember PAF F-16 plots completed 100,000 flyng hours in 2008(After 25 years of Service).Su-30 MKI's itself has flown for 100,000+ flying hours between 2004-2012.



TaimiKhan said:


> She is mentioning 150 inferior JF-17s way back in 2009 when we did not even had a single sqd raised, so no idea why she comparing a non existent fighter jet at the time with the IAF fighters.
> 
> *Her cable is just a justification for the US to give Pak F-16s, while she has no idea about the capabilities of PAF, and her cable has nothing to do with the topic.
> *


*
JF-17's are supposed to be PAF's numerical mainstay in this decade compared to IAF's Su-30 MKI's in the first half of this decade and Rafale's in the second part,now even a Rank 1 noob can tell that Su-30MKI and Rafale score way above JFT's.*


----------



## The Deterrent

TaimiKhan said:


> *Indian members, plz don't bring in your missiles and stuff like that as the thread is about PAF & its countering IAF / Su-30. *



Whaaaaatt??  
Re-read the post Taimi! Don't be in THAT much hurry!


----------



## fast and furious

TaimiKhan said:


> *Indian members, plz don't bring in your missiles and stuff like that as the thread is about PAF & its countering IAF / Su-30. *



So,how many Surface to surface missiles are operated by PAF ?


----------



## TaimiKhan

AhaseebA said:


> Whaaaaatt??
> Re-read the post Taimi! Don't be in THAT much hurry!



 i wasn't talking to you buddy, i was making your post as a reference for the others

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/124858-paf-exercises-other-air-forces-world-8.html

PAF has been undergoing exercises with many countries who were using BVRs for a long time , not to mention the deputations of paf pilots with other friendly airforces

Ofcourse you use such statements as paf is in dire need of f16s etc as a marketing pitch however I would like members to go through the jft info pool to have a better understanding of the capabilities of the fighter --- If the author was comparing jf17 blk1 with f16 blk52+/mlu , then its understandable

AWACS , air refuellers were conveniently not mentioned in the report , maybe the author was only mentioning U.S tech operated by PAF 

J-10 will be the frontline fighter in paf -- restricted production lines seems to be a big hurdle at the moment

Even though paf has incorporated cruise missiles e jft to take out frigates etc , I hope that a dedicated squadron of j-10s is used in the maritime role

Operating sd10b,mar1 ra'ad and other precision standoff weapons would be the trump cards for the jft

The operating costs of jft are so low that the pilots can complete a lot of flying hours on it not to mention the quick sortie rate and capabilty to operate from short unprepared roads


----------



## dbc

With the MKI, the IAF can now launch attacks from the south, flying low, undetected over the Indian ocean using other MKI's for buddy refueling.The addition of the Rafale will further enhance this capability. It means that Pakistan's coast is now as exposed as its land border with India. This is something the PAF did not have to worry about in the past.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Paan Singh

@taimikhan

why u think that india wont deploy full force in case of conflict?? why is so much delusions??
yeah,same thing was in mind of mushy during kargil war that we will capture kargil and cut the highway and will threaten india and india surely wont bring full force and artillery etc but opposite happened in that case and india brought heavy artillery with deployment of troops in massive numbers.

its just an example to u wrt ur point,have no link wid thread.IAF have deployed su-30 very close to borders in jodhpur and same thing in kargil base which is going to be made in 2-3 years..

india have 170+ mki's presently and more than 100 are meant for pak only .
i m not talking about rest of the force.so it neutralizes the fact that pak will ever attack first like it had happnd all over history.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Harry Potter said:


> She definitely consulted the Military attache to Pakistan.THat's the Standard Operating procedure throughout the world for writing Defence related cables.Similarly for Intel related Cables the Intelligence Attache is consulted(In the case of USA CIA).
> 
> 
> 
> Read the April 2004 edition of Aviation Week & Space Technology;it mentions that IAF pilots changed their tactics Successfully in the middle of a Dogfight something which even IDF pilots will be not be very confident about.I don't think you know that IAF Su-30MKI pilots fly 250-300 hours a year(One of the highest in the world).
> Remember PAF F-16 plots completed 100,000 flyng hours in 2008(After 25 years of Service).Su-30 MKI's itself has flown for 100,000+ flying hours between 2004-2012.
> 
> 
> JF-17's are supposed to be PAF's mainstay in this decade compared to IAF's Su-30 MKI's in the first half of this decade and Rafale's in the second part,now even a Rank 1 noob can tell that Su-30MKI and Rafale score way above JFT's.



Military attache knows about everything ?? Does he knows about tactics and state of the armed forces or the plans they have or the complete weapon systems. Don't be a kid, and plz tell me the SOP which says that this is how the cable has to be written. 

I have not mentioned the training or tactics procedure of IAF pilots, thus no idea why you bringing in irrelevant material. When you compare flying hours, then also do compare the number of jets SU-30s IAF operates and the F-16s PAF operates, plus you forget the 10+ years we were under sanction. So flying hours is not a bench mark for anything. 

This decade has just started, JF-17s are not main stay fighters, they would be the work horse of the PAF, the main stay would be F-16s & in future other fighter program. JF-17s are going to replace older jets and not inducted to take on Su-30s. So plzzzz loose the childish attitude and show a more mature side of yours.

*And leave this thing here and talk on the topic as you are derailing the thread.*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## fast and furious

TaimiKhan said:


> i wasn't talking to you buddy, i was making your post as a reference for the others



You do not get his point Mr. Senior moderator.You were quoting a post which mentioned Ghaznawi destroyong SU-30 in your reply and asking the Indian members not bring their Missiles and stuff in the discussion,reminding us about the Topic being" PAF countering Su-30".

In that context I wrote the post no. 539.

Please reply to that post.


----------



## Paan Singh

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> With the MKI, the IAF can now launch attacks from the south, flying low, undetected over the Indian ocean using other MKI's for buddy refueling.The addition of the Rafale will further enhance this capability. It means that Pakistan's coast is now as exposed as its land border with India. This is something the PAF did not have to worry about in the past.



yeah.we have dedicated squads of su-30 for sea operations.They are stationed in gujrat near pakistan border.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> With the MKI, the IAF can now launch attacks from the south, flying low, undetected over the Indian ocean using other MKI's for buddy refueling.The addition of the Rafale will further enhance this capability. It means that Pakistan's coast is now as exposed as its land border with India. This is something the PAF did not have to worry about in the past.



I wasn't expecting this out of you. I thought you knew much more about the stuff.


----------



## Harry Potter

ANTIBODY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/124858-paf-exercises-other-air-forces-world-8.html
> 
> PAF has been undergoing exercises with many countries who were using BVRs for a long time , not to mention the deputations of paf pilots with other friendly airforces



PAF recieved it's first active Radar BVR missiles in exactly 2 years ago:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/67117-amraam-bvr-missiles-delivered-pakistan.html
Believe me it takes years(atleast 5) to properly assimilate BVR tactics into your Air Force.

Anyways IAF pilots yawned a lot when the Faced Singapore's F-16 Block 52+ with all their Amraam's this year.Nothing special,the results were overwhelmingly in our favor.


----------



## SBD-3

AhaseebA said:


> Although the thread is about PAF, but another dimension is also present through which Pakistan can effectively encounter IAF. That is, the destruction/disabling of aircraft on ground by attacking the airbases with ballistic missiles.
> The formidable Ghaznavi SRBM (range 300 km), which has a larger volume in the warhead assembly, can be effectively armed with Cluster Munitions to attack the key Airbases of IAF, such as the ones housing SU-30s.


I dont think Balistic missiles will be the first priority, PAF's efforts to acquire and integrate 1) Stand-off weaponary 2)PGMs can be considered a step in the same direction. Btw, there is another news recently out that China, after developing FT-5, has developed a new Stand off PGM in the same class as AASM Hammer.


----------



## Harry Potter

TaimiKhan said:


> Military attache knows about everything ?? Does he knows about tactics and state of the armed forces or the plans they have or the complete weapon systems. Don't be a kid, and plz tell me the SOP which says that this is how the cable has to be written.


They surely know more than you.
ASk any diplomat anywhere in the world how a diplomatic cables are written(Atleast in USA,India).If you don't know any diplomat personally sorry I can't do anything.



TaimiKhan said:


> I have not mentioned the training or tactics procedure of IAF pilots, thus no idea why you bringing in irrelevant material. When you compare flying hours, then also do compare the number of jets SU-30s IAF operates and the F-16s PAF operates, plus you forget the 10+ years we were under sanction. So flying hours is not a bench mark for anything.
> 
> This decade has just started, JF-17s are not main stay fighters, they would be the work horse of the PAF, the main stay would be F-16s & in future other fighter program. JF-17s are going to replace older jets and not inducted to take on Su-30s. So plzzzz loose the childish attitude and show a more mature side of yours.
> 
> *And leave this thing here and talk on the topic as you are derailing the thread.*


The general rule of the thumb is the More you fly better are your skills.
@JFT's I clearly mentioned *Numerical* mainstay.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Paan Singh said:


> @taimikhan
> 
> why u think that india wont deploy full force in case of conflict?? why is so much delusions??
> yeah,same thing was in mind of mushy during kargil war that we will capture kargil and cut the highway and will threaten india and india surely wont bring full force and artillery etc but opposite happened in that case and india brought heavy artillery with deployment of troops in massive numbers.
> 
> its just an example to u wrt ur point,have no link wid thread.IAF have deployed su-30 very close to borders in jodhpur and same thing in kargil base which is going to be made in 2-3 years..
> 
> india have 170+ mki's presently and more than 100 are meant for pak only .
> i m not talking about rest of the force.so it neutralizes the fact that pak will ever attack first like it had happnd all over history.



No delusions buddy, India has for now and in future two fronts to look after, and thus not all force would be deployed just for Pak, plus we even don't know what are the objectives of IAF, thus without knowing what the objectives are, no one knows how much IAF will deploy, which ones and where. 

PAF can attack first not just through sending its jets over the bases, now dynamics have changed, you have cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, PGMs, which can easily take out adversary's assets without risking your jets going into adversary's air space.



Paan Singh said:


> @taimikhan
> 
> why u think that india wont deploy full force in case of conflict?? why is so much delusions??
> yeah,same thing was in mind of mushy during kargil war that we will capture kargil and cut the highway and will threaten india and india surely wont bring full force and artillery etc but opposite happened in that case and india brought heavy artillery with deployment of troops in massive numbers.
> 
> its just an example to u wrt ur point,have no link wid thread.IAF have deployed su-30 very close to borders in jodhpur and same thing in kargil base which is going to be made in 2-3 years..
> 
> india have 170+ mki's presently and more than 100 are meant for pak only .
> i m not talking about rest of the force.so it neutralizes the fact that pak will ever attack first like it had happnd all over history.



No delusions buddy, India has for now and in future two fronts to look after, and thus not all force would be deployed just for Pak, plus we even don't know what are the objectives of IAF, thus without knowing what the objectives are, no one knows how much IAF will deploy, which ones and where. 

PAF can attack first not just through sending its jets over the bases, now dynamics have changed, you have cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, PGMs, which can easily take out adversary's assets without risking your jets going into adversary's air space.


----------



## Manticore

please read my post again & tell me if jft does not offer the capability that i've mentioned


----------



## Harry Potter

TaimiKhan said:


> No delusions buddy, India has for now and in future two fronts to look after, and thus not all force would be deployed just for Pak, plus we even don't know what are the objectives of IAF, thus without knowing what the objectives are, no one knows how much IAF will deploy, which ones and where.
> 
> PAF can attack first not just through sending its jets over the bases, now dynamics have changed, you have cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, PGMs, which can easily take out adversary's assets without risking your jets going into adversary's air space.


You yourself told not to bring in Surface to Surface missiles!!
Anyway's Subsonic missiles like BAbur are can be easily brought down by Spyder's SAM.



ANTIBODY said:


> please read my post again & tell me if jft does not offer thie capability that i've mentioned


Awac's, A2A refueling??
What's new in this?
Nearly every IAF platform incl.MiG-21's have A2A refueling capability.


----------



## TaimiKhan

fast and furious said:


> So,how many Surface to surface missiles are operated by PAF ?


 


fast and furious said:


> You do not get his point Mr. Senior moderator.You were quoting a post which mentioned Ghaznawi destroyong SU-30 in your reply and asking the Indian members not bring their Missiles and stuff in the discussion,reminding us about the Topic being" PAF countering Su-30".
> 
> In that context I wrote the post no. 539.
> 
> Please reply to that post.



Mr. fast & furious showing over smartness, do you think I, you or anyone else on the forum will know the number of SSM which pakistan or India holds ?? Issue is not just ballistic missiles, you have cruise missiles on both sides and then PGMs, so all the factors will play their role and not just SSMs.



Harry Potter said:


> You yourself told not to bring in Surface to Surface missiles!!
> Anyway's Subsonic missiles like BAbur are can be easily brought by Spyder's SAm.



very easy to say, but in practical terms we have yet to see which thing will reach its target and which will get destroyed.



Harry Potter said:


> PAF recieved it's first active Radar BVR missiles in exactly 2 years ago:
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/67117-amraam-bvr-missiles-delivered-pakistan.html
> Believe me it takes years(atleast 5) to properly assimilate BVR tactics into your Air Force.
> 
> Anyways IAF pilots yawned a lot when the Faced Singapore's F-16 Block 52+ with all their Amraam's this year.Nothing special,the results were overwhelmingly in our favor.



And are you sure that PAF had no BVR capability before AMRAAMS ??



Harry Potter said:


> They surely know more than you.
> ASk any diplomat anywhere in the world how a diplomatic cables are written(Atleast in USA,India).If you don't know any diplomat personally sorry I can't do anything.
> 
> 
> The general rule of the thumb is the More you fly better are your skills.
> @JFT's I clearly mentioned *Numerical* mainstay.



They may surely know more then me about their own country armed forces, but they surely don't know much about the other armed forces other then what's printed and known to all. 

Its not a hard and fast rule that in every cable related to defence you have to bring in the military attache or write through him. 

Yeah as a general rule its good, the more you fly the more your skills are, but sometimes other factors also play a role through which even with less flying your skills improve. 

Yeah numerical mainstay, they are talking about something which has yet to come in numerical / quantitative way, they don't know and did not mentioned the qualitative status these jets will reach by the time they get inducted. Plus, she leaves out the other platforms we may have by the time this numerical mainstay gets inducted. 

As said its all hypothetical.


----------



## Harry Potter

TaimiKhan said:


> And are you sure that PAF had no BVR capability before AMRAAMS ??


Let me quote hasnain0099 post's from 




hasnain0099 said:


> ROBERT HEWSON Editor, Janes Air-LaunchedWeapons
> 
> The US has concluded a USD284 million deal to supply Pakistan with 200 Raytheon AIM- 9M-8/9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles (AAMs) and 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM)systems. *The AMRAAM sale marks the biggest single export order in the history of the AIM-120 programme and gives the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) a beyond-visual range (BVR) active-radar AAM capability for the first time*. The missiles will be carried by the PAFs newly ordered F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft and its existing F-16A/B Block 15s, which will acquire AMRAAM compatibility as part of a mid-life upgrade. The arrival of the AMRAAM in PAF service gives the air force a significant combat capability it has previously been denied. Pakistan has explored several clandestine avenues to developing its own active radar BVR AAMs to counter Indias considerable stocks of weapons in the same class. Pakistan is also expected to acquire the Chinese-developed SD-10 (PL-12) AAM with its JF-17 Thunder lightweight fighters. SD-10s would also be part of any potential Chengdu J-10 order. Pakistans closer defence ties with the US may force a re-assessment of its links with China.The US has now granted Pakistan access to effective modern weapon systems, such as the AMRAAM, curbing the need for the PAF to look for suppliers elsewhere. Hand in hand with US equipment will come restrictions on the potential transfer of technology &#8211; such as the AMRAAM&#8211; to China, with Pakistan forced to distance itself from its Chinese partners as a result. India will no doubt note the delivery of the AMRAAM order to Pakistan with interest. The Indian Air Forces large front-line force of Su-30MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21UPGs is equipped with Vympels RVV-AE (R-77) active radar AAM. The arrival of the AMRAAM and an expanded F-16 force into PAF service balances the regional air-power equation, to a degree. AMRAAM deliveries to the PAF will start in 2008 and run until 2011. The contract with Raytheon is a Foreign Military Sales agreement, so missiles will be allocated to Pakistan from the relevant annual production lots for the US government. The 200 AIM-9M Sidewinders are being delivered from refurbished stocks. The AMRAAM and Sidewinder order is part of a much larger US-supplied F-16 weapons package for Pakistan, originally announced in June 2006.
> 
> &#9679; The Pakistan Air Force will,
> for the first time, gain a BVR
> active-radar AAM capability
> &#9679; The AMRAAM sale is the
> biggest single export order
> for the AIM-120
> 
> (this was taken from JDW 2007 issue)





TaimiKhan said:


> They may surely know more then me about their own country armed forces, but they surely don't know much about the other armed forces other then what's printed and known to all.
> 
> Its not a hard and fast rule that in every cable related to defence you have to bring in the military attache or write through him.
> 
> Yeah as a general rule its good, the more you fly the more your skills are, but sometimes other factors also play a role through which even with less flying your skills improve.
> 
> Yeah numerical mainstay, they are talking about something which has yet to come in numerical / quantitative way, they don't know and did not mentioned the qualitative status these jets will reach by the time they get inducted. Plus, she leaves out the other platforms we may have by the time this numerical mainstay gets inducted.
> 
> As said its all hypothetical.


Arrey,Has a US diplomat told you or what that it's not a hard and fast rule?
Or you are a serving diplomat of US State Department?
J-10B's are yet to be inducted,only new inductions in PAF are JFT's and the up-gradation of Old F-16A's.

Anyways as debate is about MKI's IAF has 180-185 MKI's.(incl.112 HAL made).


----------



## Manticore

Regarding the bvr training today and in the past , I will post some info




I read that in the excercises of 1997 ,F-16s fired Aim-7M/Fs on F-7Ps aswell as other bvr of southafrican origin

quoting


> We did get around 200 -7Fs I know this coz they were maintained at PAF Badaber












globalsec

If PAF was so interested in this weapon, they could have aquired reverse engineered Aspides from china (Pl-11). --- *The reason i am mentioning this missile is the evolution of bvr tactics had started way before some imagine*





Chogy said:


> Modern simulators are just amazing. They are very, very close to perfect, and especially when dealing with expensive jet aircraft, one can practice without the enormous expense of flying the real thing.
> 
> Very few people know that simulators are so good, airline pilots can be 100% certified to fly a Boeing 777, for example, without ever leaving the ground. His very first flight can be a revenue flight from NY to Tokyo. The days of flying around in empty jets for training purposes are long gone.
> 
> Military fighter sims are perfect for simulating night operations, BVR, and intercepts. And of course, all of them are needed to practice emergencies and malfunctions.


http://www.f-16.net/news_article4408.html



If an old version of Sidewinders fired from E-pole at 25G the pilot has to pull 9Gs in order to evade the misslie. [3x G rule]


AWACs and refuellers gives paf fighters the 2 things they lacked individually --- I didnt know that I had to spell that out for you

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

After Pakistan purchased it's initial 40 F-16s, the Indians went berserk with a spending spree, purchasing MiG-23s, Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29, however, after India's induction of MKIs, we didn't witness such knee jerk reaction from Pakistan, even when we had the option and funds to purchase the EFT, which incidentally made mince meat of the MKI on the sides of the joint RAF/IAF exercise, India Danush or something. Since every one is assuming on the next battlefield scenario and drawing conclusions on hear say, well suffice to repeat the comments of a well connected PAF guy i spoke to....."We know what we are capable of, and they also have an idea of our capabilities, it's not a game that we disclose all our capabilities just to boast the public moral, the mission is to deliver when challenged or the need arises.".... here is another little insider, during the 2002 stand off with India, PAF inducted some F-7PG fighter/interceptors.....why when we already had fighters that could shoot Papa/Lima, PL-8s and Magic-550s.....should leave little room for imagination. The internet warriors can feed on any scenario but as the saying goes, boards don't hit back but bullets kill. !!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Harry Potter

ANTIBODY said:


> I read that in the excercises of 1997 ,F-16s fired Aim-7M/Fs on F-7Ps aswell as other bvr of southafrican origin
> 
> quoting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalsec
> 
> If PAF was so interested in this weapon, they could have aquired reverse engineered Aspides from china (Pl-11).
> ---* The reason i am mentioning this missile is the evolution of bvr tactics had started way before some imagine*


Aim 7M has a kill probability of less than 40%


> The AIM-7M was used extensively during the Gulf War in 1991 by the U.S. Air Force. It was responsible for many air-to-air kills, though its kill probability remained under 40 pct.


Aircraft Weapons: AIM-7 Sparrow
No wonder no mass induction was made.

Please don't bring in missiles not confirmed officially if don't blame me if I bring in Awac's Killers like Novator K-100.


----------



## JonAsad

In case the war is imminent- 
The best option will be to do a 6-Day on India-
preemptive strikes- cripple IAF offense- 
plus we can add ice to the cake by tagging along few precision cruise missiles- 
Su too close to border will give us an extra advantage-



Harry Potter said:


> Aim 7M has a kill probability of less than 40%
> 
> Aircraft Weapons: AIM-7 Sparrow
> No wonder no mass induction was made.
> 
> Please don't bring in missiles not confirmed officially if don't blame me if I bring in Awac's Killers like Novator K-100.




Actualy he has mentioned the reason-
Only if you read and not do partial reading-



ANTIBODY said:


> --- *The reason i am mentioning this missile is the evolution of bvr tactics had started way before some imagine*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Harry Potter

BTW how is F-16 going to evade Python-4?
SIPRI revealed that we acquired a Python-4's in 2007.


----------



## dbc

TaimiKhan said:


> I wasn't expecting this out of you. I thought you knew much more about the stuff.



So you want to shoot the messenger?


----------



## Harry Potter

JonAsad said:


> Actualy he has mentioned the reason-
> Only if you read and not do partial reading-


Beta,
You know the difference between Active homing and Semi active homing?
Both entirely different.

Pilots who used Semi-active missiles face considerable problem switching to active radar BVR.


----------



## notorious_eagle

Harry Potter said:


> BTW how is F-16 going to evade Python-4?
> SIPRI revealed that we acquired a Python-4's in 2007.



Chaffs, flares, evasive manoeuvres, ECM and several other tactics a pilot can employ to shake off a WVR missile. Problem is that WVR missiles have a great kill ratio due to the reduced range. The lesser the range is, the great the probability of a kill. 

The question you should be asking is what will the MKI pilot do to shake of the AIM9-M from its tale. I would put my money on the AIM9-M due to the sheer R&D and testing this missile has gone through. Python 4 no matter how innovative it is, cannot match the reliability of the AIM9-M. Those huge exhaust engines off the MKI will be a magnet for a IR seeking missile which will home in right at those engines due to their massive IR signature.



Harry Potter said:


> You yourself told not to bring in Surface to Surface missiles!!
> Anyway's Subsonic missiles like BAbur are can be easily brought down by Spyder's SAM.



Anything that flies can be brought down. This is where the tactics come in. It will be upto PAF how effectively they employ Babur to overcome Indian defences. Babur is a subsonic missile which is designed to fly low, huge the terrain so it can evade the radar. How good Babur is or how good IAF radar system is to track low flying cruise missiles is up for the professionals to answer. 




Harry Potter said:


> Awac's, A2A refueling??
> What's new in this?
> Nearly every IAF platform incl.MiG-21's have A2A refueling capability.



Force multipliers

AWACS enable PAF to look deep into IAF territory without getting close to the danger line. Any airborne IAF asset will be tracked by the AWACS and any low flying strike package will be spotted too. Instead of loading up every aircraft with an expensive radar, AWACS enables PAF to data-link all her assets giving them a comprehensive situational awareness. In the past the MKI could fly with impunity with its exceptional PESA radar. It enabled the MKI to look deep into PAF territory without crossing the border. Now this has changed. I would argue the AWACS are without a doubt the single most precious asset in PAF's inventory. 

A2A refuelling allows PAF to increase the endurance of its planes. The biggest hurdle that PAF faced in the past was that its airplanes had short legs. An aircraft burns almost half of its fuel during take off due to the usage of its after burner. Now PAF can load its planes with heavy ordinance, fill enough fuel for it to take off and than refuel in the air. This increases the endurance of the aircraft. Now our Mirage V can carry out long range precision strikes close to the border, in the past PAF did not have this luxury.



Harry Potter said:


> Beta,
> You know the difference between Active homing and Semi active homing?
> Both entirely different.
> 
> Pilots who used Semi-active missiles face considerable problem switching to active radar BVR.



Thats why i love the AIM120. As soon as the opposing pilot tries to jam the AIM 120, it switches its Active Sensors into Passive Sensors and homes into the jamming source . So far the pilots using the AIM120 have not faced any problems even though its a semi active missile. Its quality and its kill ratio speaks for itself .

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## danger007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post---that is what the paf been doing for the last so many years.
> 
> Also a consideration that was mentioned by orangzeb---. The su30 stationed 50 miles to a 100 miles from pak border or bases are extremely vulnerable as well.
> 
> The spool up time for the jf 17 is much shorter than that of the su30---. Once the jf17 gets airborne from kamra---the su30 based in srinagar won't even have time for its engine to spool up to take off power before the jf's are right on top of the base---.
> 
> I firmly believe that there are those on the indian side---who either out of ignorance or for genuine concern for pakistan ( which means that there are those in india who don't want india to come ahead in a conflict ) have deployed the su30's so close to the pak border---.
> 
> Looking at the time that he su30 can stay in the air there was no reason for it to be closer to the border----it is just like the usaf deplying the b2 bomber in qatar to bomb iran.



Mastan sir i expected better post from you.... while in-case of war... every one will pay attention to counter any misadventure.... this is not 1965 or 1971 sir..... in-case if JF-17 attacked MKI base.... inviting full scale war.... and also pakistan is not in a stage to do such provocative act.... hmmm i forget one thing to ask.... whenever we are talking about per-emtive strikes many members bringing SAM.... do you think we don't have SAM's??


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> After Pakistan purchased it's initial 40 F-16s, the Indians went berserk with a spending spree, purchasing MiG-23s, Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29, however, after India's induction of MKIs, we didn't witness such knee jerk reaction from Pakistan, even when we had the option and funds to purchase the EFT, which incidentally made mince meat of the MKI on the sides of the joint RAF/IAF exercise, India Danush or something. Since every one is assuming on the next battlefield scenario and drawing conclusions on hear say, well suffice to repeat the comments of a well connected PAF guy i spoke to....."We know what we are capable of, and they also have an idea of our capabilities, it's not a game that we disclose all our capabilities just to boast the public moral, the mission is to deliver when challenged or the need arises.".... here is another little insider, during the 2002 stand off with India, PAF inducted some F-7PG fighter/interceptors.....why when we already had fighters that could shoot Papa/Lima, PL-8s and Magic-550s.....should leave little room for imagination. The internet warriors can feed on any scenario but as the saying goes, boards don't hit back but bullets kill. !!



what my direhard Indians fail to see is that the hypothetical scenario is about encountering SU-30 MKI in Pakistani airspace, they have brought in their SAMs and Brahmos and Kargil and Makti Mahmi and their ground radars totally missing the point of the thread.

if the thread had been about how PAF was to counter IAF or Indian air defence then fine they can bring their space cruisers as well but here the scope was only about how PAF was to fight the MKI in its airspace with whatever it has at its disposal.



danger007 said:


> Mastan sir i expected better post from you.... while in-case of war... every one will pay attention to counter any misadventure.... this is not 1965 or 1971 sir..... in-case if JF-17 attacked MKI base.... inviting full scale war.... and also pakistan is not in a stage to do such provocative act.... hmmm i forget one thing to ask.... whenever we are talking about per-emtive strikes many members bringing SAM....



chanda,

the thread is not about PAF attacking India, its about facing off with MKI , specially when MKI is invading Pakistani airspace.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## danger007

Irfan Baloch said:


> what my direhard *Internet Hindus fail to see* is that the hypothetical scenario is about encountering SU-30 MKI in Pakistani airspace, they have brought in their SAMs and Brahmos and Kargil and Makti Mahmi and their ground radars totally missing the point of the thread.
> 
> if the thread had been about how PAF was to counter IAF or Indian air defence then fine they can bring their space cruisers as well but here the scope was only about how PAF was to fight the MKI in its airspace with whatever it has at its disposal.
> 
> 
> 
> chanda,
> 
> the thread is not about PAF attacking India, its about facing off with MKI , specially when MKI is invading Pakistani airspace.




im responding MK post..... every has right share his views ..... please read MK post once... i got doubt ,so i just asked him...


being a moderator bringing religion , calling Indian members as Internet hindu's is not good..... you don't know every one religion..... can we use Internet muslim's???

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> So you want to shoot the messenger?



Nops, but i remember you to be good at this, such short analysis were not what you were used to be good at and known for  

I just wanna say, i was expecting more out of you.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## danger007

@ topic.... PAF main AIM is to restrict the advancement of MKI ..... and there is no necessity of superior JETS to restrict advancement..... PAF can hold it's airspace..... but the question is how long????


----------



## notorious_eagle

danger007 said:


> Not a prob.... but he don't know every one religion.... im dalith believed in Christianity .... still i oppose any one talking bad about my fellow (Indian) members... let they are muslims,hindu's what eva ..... because they are my bro's.... If the topic is in between west / EU and Asians.... i will support Asians...
> 
> 
> @ topic.... PAF main AIM is to restrict the advancement of MKI ..... and there is no necessity of superior JETS to restrict advancement..... PAF can hold it's airspace..... *but the question is how long????*



Long enough for the Indians to retreat. 

The entire premise behind India's new war-fighting doctrine is to fight a short war without reaching the nuclear threshold. Indians are expecting to fight a war for 96 hours in this new strategy, that means PAF has more than enough reserves to keep afloat during this time period.


----------



## farhan_9909

Harry Potter said:


> BTW how is F-16 going to evade Python-4?
> SIPRI revealed that we acquired a Python-4's in 2007.


 

python 4?

oh yeah we will receive python 4 alternative aka ''maa-1b'' next month

now tell me how will MKI escape from maa-1b lock?

along with jft 2 with klj7v2

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## danger007

Irfan Baloch said:


> just a messenger
> 
> "Internet Hindus" caught in online frays | The Stream - Al Jazeera English
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am just the messenger
> "Internet Hindus" caught in online frays | The Stream - Al Jazeera English
> 
> you just confirmed what the news item says with your bolding of letters and shooting the gun.
> 
> thanks




Let it be bro... you don't need to go off-topic.... come back to topic....



Irfan Baloch said:


> just a messenger
> 
> "Internet Hindus" caught in online frays | The Stream - Al Jazeera English
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am just the messenger
> "Internet Hindus" caught in online frays | The Stream - Al Jazeera English
> 
> you just confirmed what the news item says with your bolding of letters and shooting the gun.
> 
> thanks




Let it be bro... you don't need to go off-topic.... come back to topic....



notorious_eagle said:


> Long enough for the Indians to retreat.
> 
> The entire premise behind India's new war-fighting doctrine is to fight a short war without reaching the nuclear threshold. Indians are expecting to fight a war for 96 hours in this new strategy, that means PAF has more than enough reserves to keep afloat during this time period.



Don't be fanboy..... This is not proper answer... can you enlighten me...


----------



## Windjammer

danger007 said:


> @ topic.... PAF main AIM is to restrict the advancement of MKI ..... and there is no necessity of superior JETS to restrict advancement..... PAF can hold it's airspace..... but the question is how long????


If the scenario is played out, then certainly how long.....
How long is a piece of string......how long will the world sit uneasy while the two nuclear powers battle it out......how long the war will remain conventional......i say it's anybody's guess. !!


----------



## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> After Pakistan purchased it's initial 40 F-16s, the Indians went berserk with a spending spree, purchasing *MiG-23s, Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29*



PAF ordered the F 16s from USA in 1981 and the 1st delivery was in 1983, whereas evaluation of Mig 29 for IAF began in 1980...And I think, the 1st Mig 23 entered service with IAF in 1980 as well... Also wasnt the initial plan had a figure of 111 111 F 16s. But after the delivery of 1st 40, USA decided to sanction Pakistan and hold back the balance due to the infamous Presseler Act..??

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## dbc

TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, but i remember you to be good at this, such short analysis were not what you were used to be good at and known for
> 
> I just wanna say, i was expecting more out of you.



You want me to write a lengthy analysis about the Su-30 MKI's range and buddy refueling capability?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## TaimiKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You want me to write a lengthy analysis about the Su-30 MKI's range and buddy refueling capability?


 
Nops, i wanted you to write a fair analysis taking into consideration all factors and both sides. 

We all know about what MKI is and what it can do and what its worth.


----------



## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> PAF ordered the F 16s from USA in 1981 and the 1st delivery was in 1983, whereas evaluation of Mig 29 for IAF began in 1980...And I think, the 1st Mig 23 entered service with IAF in 1980 as well... Also wasnt the initial plan had a figure of 111 111 F 16s. But after the delivery of 1st 40, USA decided to sanction Pakistan and hold back the balance due to the infamous Presseler Act..??



According to Pushpinder Singh, "The purchase of 40 F-16 by PAF did more for IAF within a decade than what the bureaucrats may have allowed in 30 years.! ( Breakdown of type and quantity of aircraft given).


----------



## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> According to Pushpinder Singh, "The purchase of 40 F-16 by PAF did more for IAF within a decade than what the bureaucrats may have allowed in 30 years.! ( Breakdown of type and quantity of aircraft given).



I still dont see how Mig 29 for which the ordering process began in 1980 be a reaction to PAF's ordering of F 16 in 1981 ....

PS: ( Breakdown of type and quantity of aircraft given) .. where.. Link???

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Irfan Baloch

danger007 said:


> @ topic.... PAF main AIM is to restrict the advancement of MKI ..... and there is no necessity of superior JETS to restrict advancement..... PAF can hold it's airspace..... but the question is how long????




the subject is aimed at Indian primary air asset and PAF's likely counter strategy to it. when the forces will face off in the air they wont be posting comments and waiting for the replies to quote them and respond back. so the "restrictions" will be in the form of missiles flying about. how it will do it is anyone's guess based on what front line fighters are and what front line ground based air defenses are available to it


thats very true re ( unlimited amount of time to hold on)

mind you.. the air war is very short. we are not talking about planes and pilots being mass produced by the opposing forces like in WW1 and WW2. 

I doubt that either side will continue to press on despite suffering a dozen of air losses. so PAF might not have to hold on and defend for too long (too long? whats too long? do you know? I dont)

again its my hypothesis, the air chiefs of either forces might decide that its ok to loose 100s of air crafts and continue with the campaign.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## manofwar

farhan_9909 said:


> python 4?
> 
> oh yeah we will receive python 4 alternative aka ''maa-1b'' next month
> 
> now tell me how will MKI escape from maa-1b lock?
> 
> along with jft 2 with klj7v2


As was extensively discussed earlier, Bars had a range of 140kms at 5m2 RCS, while Klj7v2 had a 120km range at 5m2.
It was a general coensus that due to the Su 30's overall dismal RCS, the radars of both the plane will be able to locate and lock each other at the same time. Now comes the part which you miss- Does PAF have a missile with long enough range, so it can counter Su 30??It hsa Ra'ad with a range of 350kms, which is unfortunately subsonic. So, no it does not. 
On the other hand , we have K-100 Novator, the "AWACS Killer" with a range of 400 kms and a speed of Mach 3.2. Thus, we will be able to utilize our full range of Su 30's radars............


----------



## The_Sidewinder

@irfan sir
now thats a sensible reply..
Coz we can both sides can only can do bla bla thing via internet, but real pilots will fight he wars. We will than no the real capabilities of aircrafts. Coz when first missile will be fired, all the strategies, doctrains, assumed scenarios will go invain.
Thnxxxx
But I hope that day will never come.


----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You want me to write a lengthy analysis about the Su-30 MKI's range and buddy refueling capability?



--Looking forward for some informative posts. thread is not worth replying so far.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Harry Potter

notorious_eagle said:


> Chaffs, flares, evasive manoeuvres, ECM and several other tactics a pilot can employ to shake off a WVR missile. Problem is that WVR missiles have a great kill ratio due to the reduced range. The lesser the range is, the great the probability of a kill.
> 
> The question you should be asking is what will the MKI pilot do to shake of the AIM9-M from its tale. I would put my money on the AIM9-M due to the sheer R&D and testing this missile has gone through. Python 4 no matter how innovative it is, cannot match the reliability of the AIM9-M. Those huge exhaust engines off the MKI will be a magnet for a IR seeking missile which will home in right at those engines due to their massive IR signature.


Chaff,flares,evasive maneuvers are time tested methods but they are no longer effective in front of modern WVR like Python 4.




See the Video where Oron Oriel who was in Python 4 development team mention that a Python 4's computer is way ahead of an computer of an F-16!!.






notorious_eagle said:


> Anything that flies can be brought down. This is where the tactics come in. It will be upto PAF how effectively they employ Babur to overcome Indian defences. Babur is a subsonic missile which is designed to fly low, huge the terrain so it can evade the radar. How good Babur is or how good IAF radar system is to track low flying cruise missiles is up for the professionals to answer.


Countering Cruise Missiles like Babur and Stand-off weapons is the main role of Spyder in IAF.YOu will see the recent induction of MKI's in Rajasthan was with Spyder deployment in base along with AESA radar.






notorious_eagle said:


> Force multipliers
> 
> AWACS enable PAF to look deep into IAF territory without getting close to the danger line. Any airborne IAF asset will be tracked by the AWACS and any low flying strike package will be spotted too. Instead of loading up every aircraft with an expensive radar, AWACS enables PAF to data-link all her assets giving them a comprehensive situational awareness. In the past the MKI could fly with impunity with its exceptional PESA radar. It enabled the MKI to look deep into PAF territory without crossing the border. Now this has changed. I would argue the AWACS are without a doubt the single most precious asset in PAF's inventory.
> 
> A2A refuelling allows PAF to increase the endurance of its planes. The biggest hurdle that PAF faced in the past was that its airplanes had short legs. An aircraft burns almost half of its fuel during take off due to the usage of its after burner. Now PAF can load its planes with heavy ordinance, fill enough fuel for it to take off and than refuel in the air. This increases the endurance of the aircraft. Now our Mirage V can carry out long range precision strikes close to the border, in the past PAF did not have this luxury.


A rank 0 noob knows what are advantages of AWACS and A2A refueling
My point was that AWACS and A2A refueling is present with IAF too and is not the sole property of PAF.




notorious_eagle said:


> Thats why i love the AIM120. As soon as the opposing pilot tries to jam the AIM 120, it switches its Active Sensors into Passive Sensors and homes into the jamming source . *So far the pilots using the AIM120 have not faced any problems even though its a semi active missile.* Its quality and its kill ratio speaks for itself .


I think you wanted to say it's an Active Missile.

Anyways as IAF is most probably going to be on the offensive it will have a good advantage over PAF
An offensive approach has many advantages. It keeps the initiative and forces the enemy to react. It carries the war to the enemy. It makes maximum use of aircraft and keeps great pressure on the enemy. Finally, assuming the offensive operations are against an appropriate center of gravity, collateral damage probably will be inflicted on facilities that would be attacked in the next phase of operations.
A defensive force needs 2:1 advantage over the offensive force(Assuming both are technologically of the same level).

Whenever possible, the offensive course should be selected -- if for no other reason than that it is a positive measure that will lead to positive results.


----------



## mylovepakistan

manofwar said:


> As was extensively discussed earlier, Bars had a range of 140kms at 5m2 RCS, while Klj7v2 had a 120km range at 5m2.
> It was a general coensus that due to the Su 30's overall dismal RCS, the radars of both the plane will be able to locate and lock each other at the same time. Now comes the part which you miss- Does PAF have a missile with long enough range, so it can counter Su 30??It hsa Ra'ad with a range of 350kms, which is unfortunately subsonic. So, no it does not.
> On the other hand , we have K-100 Novator, the "AWACS Killer" with a range of 400 kms and a speed of Mach 3.2. Thus, we will be able to utilize our full range of Su 30's radars............



official link please for k-100 you are talking about..


----------



## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> @ topic.... PAF main AIM is to restrict the advancement of MKI ..... and there is no necessity of superior JETS to restrict advancement..... PAF can hold it's airspace..... but the question is how long????


 
Well, the how long depends on how the world can pis* in their pants and uncomfortably scrambling all available options to stop the conflict. This is the stupidest part about this region, you are both nuclear, you are BOTH poor and you are BOTH neighbors!!!! One conflicts or one hundred, you'll still be sharing borders, culture and similarities. So why not turn that negative energy into trade and towards human prosperity???

Btw, I've read all the posts above and I hate to disagree with many of them. The Indian members (as always and unfortunately) love to portray themselves as the next US. That is NOT and will NEVER be the case. The python 4, 9 and 11, the K-100 and K 900's don't mean crap. Nothing is 100% guaranteed. It's been projected in a way that India is much superior and they can stop any attack. I am concerned as if this is the mentality in the Indian military's hq, there may be a severe conflict that may result in loss of human life. So I hope and pray that such testy mentality has some oversight from calm people who can think realistically!

And yes, I think I've already mentioned many times that SU-30 with its load carrying capability, buddy refueling, two pilots and twin turbine is a superior aspect. BUT that doesn't mean it can't be locked upon. It just means more headache for the Pakistanis.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

orangzaib said:


> Well, the how long depends on how the world can pis* in their pants and uncomfortably scrambling all available options to stop the conflict. This is the stupidest part about this region, you are both nuclear, you are BOTH poor and you are BOTH neighbors!!!! One conflicts or one hundred, you'll still be sharing borders, culture and similarities. So why not turn that negative energy into trade and towards human prosperity???
> 
> Btw, I've read all the posts above and I hate to disagree with many of them. The Indian members (as always and unfortunately) love to portray themselves as the next US. That is NOT and will NEVER be the case. The python 4, 9 and 11, the K-100 and K 900's don't mean crap. Nothing is 100% guaranteed. It's been projected in a way that India is much superior and they can stop any attack. I am concerned as if this is the mentality in the Indian military's hq, there may be a severe conflict that may result in loss of human life. So I hope and pray that such testy mentality has some oversight from calm people who can think realistically!
> 
> And yes, I think I've already mentioned many times that SU-30 with its load carrying capability, buddy refueling, two pilots and twin turbine is a superior aspect. BUT that doesn't mean it can't be locked upon. It just means more headache for the Pakistanis.



twisting on same thing with different ways will not help you bud..... i mentioned it already.... any kinda jet can be shot down.... no one denying it.... I mentioned earlier about the advantages of MKI and please mention what kinda advantages does JF-17 hold's apart from RCS.... Indian military's hq is just fine.... they don't wanna start war for no reason... maximum IA will prefer to avoid any conflict...... and except some brain frat's both PAKISTANIS and INDIANS not interested to fight another war...


----------



## ANPP

The flight performance, technical characteristics and combat capabilities of any aircraft primarily depend on their assigned role, tactical tasks and mission environment.
MKI is a triplane (a combination of conventional design with foreplanes) with a lifting fuselage and developed wingroot extensions. The interaction of the foreplanes and wingroot extensions creates a controlled vortex effect similar to that of the adaptive wing.
Engines with thrust-vectoring nozzles enable the Su-30MKI to perform such maneuvers as «cobra» vertical reverse, roll in «bell» turn in «cobra» etc. In these maneuvers, an angle of attack can reach 180o. These are not purely aerobatic maneuvers: this supermaneuverability can be effectively used in combat.
Supermaneuverability should be looked at as a system of maneuvers for close aerial combat. Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by an enemy radar, the first thing he needs to do is to go vertical. While gaining altitude and losing speed the aircraft starts to disappear from the screens of radars that use the Doppler effect. However, the opponent is no fool either and will counter by pitching his aircraft upward as well. By that time our plane is going vertical and its speed approaches zero. But all Doppler radars can recognize only a moving target. If the aircraft speed is zero or simply low enough to prevent the enemy radar from calculating the Doppler component, for the enemy our aircraft will disappear. He may still be able to track us visually, but he will not be able to launch a radar-guided missile (either active or semi-active), simply because the missile's seeker would not pick-up the target.
A number of the Su-30MKI fighter&#8217;s subsystems (navigation and communications equipment, cockpit instruments) are being developed jointly with foreign companies. Consequently, these subsystems will be technologically on a par with the best foreign counterparts.
The superiority of the Su-30MKI&#8217;s radar in terms of target detection range, scanning sectors and jamming immunity makes it highly effective in long-range air combat.The forward facing NIIP NO11M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated radar sighting system. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar (X and L Band). The N011M can function both in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneusly while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial / GPS navigation system.
Antenna diameter is 1m, antenna gain 36dB, the main sidelobe level is -25dB, average sideobe level is -48dB, beamwidth is 2.4 deg with 12 distinct beam shapes. The antenna weights 100 kg. for aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of detecting Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km. The radar can track 20 air targets and engage the 4 most threatening targets simultaneously. These targets can include cruise missiles and even motionless helicopters. For comparison, Phazotron-NIIR&#8217;s Zhuk-MS radar has a range of 150-180km against a fighter and over 300km against a warship. "We can count the number of blades in the engine of the aircraft in sight (by the NO11M) and by that determine its type," NIIP says. The forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation (+/-45 degrees vertical and +/-70 degrees horizontal have also been reported). N011M can withstand up to 5 percent transceiver loss without significant degredation in performance. The Su-30MKI can function as a 'mini-AWACS' and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to atleast 4 other aircraft. This feature was first seen in the MiG-31 Foxhound, which is equipped with a Zaslon radar.
Modern Russian fighters are equipped with an advanced optronic system designed to search, detect, lock on, automatically track aerial and ground targets and destroy them by onboard weapons. An optical locating station and a helmet-mounted sight incorporated by the system provide for effective weapon employment against aerial targets.

Compared to the F-16C Block 50, a heavy weapon load carried by the Su-30MKI significantly reduces the time required to defeat ground targets by one sortie, especially when using aerial bombs.
Notably, in terms of quantity and types of weapons, the Russian fighter considerably outclasses the F-16C & JF.
Fitted with 12 weapon stores, carrying a full complement of air-to-air missiles and featuring a multichannel target engagement capability, the Su-30MKI fighter can be effectively used to repulse a massive air raid.

Another distinguishing feature of the Su-30MKI is its high versatility. It can be used as an air defense interceptor, a strike aircraft or a flying command post. It can be used as a leader aircraft of combined fighter groups (including those of light fighters), ensuring their cooperation and concentration of efforts.
Many wrongly believe that the Su-27+ cannot perform all maneovres in combat load. To counter such talk designer Mikhail Simonov, at the 1994 Farnborough airshow, sanctioned a Su-30MK to perform the airshow routine with ordnance on all 12 pylons - a total of 7000 kg!! It did a complete fighter-like routine with this asymmetric load - including a tail slide!!.

According to Sukhoi EDB the Su-30MKI is capable of performing all tactical tasks of the Su-24 Fencer deep interdiction tactical bomber and the Su-27 Flanker A/B/C air superiority fighter while having around twice the combat range and atleast 2.5 times the combat effectiveness.


----------



## MastanKhan

TaimiKhan said:


> being a senior diplomat doesn't means he/she has authority on defence related matters.
> 
> 2:1 superiority doesn't means India will be put all its 736 jets in action against Pakistan, plus she has no idea that aerial warfare is not just about dog fights or based on 1 to 1 fights, ground based system also come into action, thus the attrition rates are not left to just dog fighting. She should know in previous wars India had superiority also, but PAF did not got destroyed.
> 
> And i don't get pakistan's shortfalls in training & tactics thingy, when did we become inferior in training & tactics, considering the reputation PAF enjoys in the eyes of other air forces. She seriously needs to know about stuff she is talking about.
> 
> She is mentioning 150 inferior JF-17s way back in 2009 when we did not even had a single sqd raised, so no idea why she comparing a non existent fighter jet at the time with the IAF fighters.
> 
> *Her cable is just a justification for the US to give Pak F-16s, while she has no idea about the capabilities of PAF, and her cable has nothing to do with the topic.
> 
> 
> So better not to bring in nonsense stuff.*



TK,

How are you? Anne Patterson was the ambassador to pakistan----this article is intentionally written to make paf look weaker in order to smoothen the sale of F16 and aim120's----. The threat is being belittled on purpose for the benefit of pakistan---. 

Anne Patterson being the pak ambassador at one time---off course she had all the information about the capabilities of paf---.

I am grateful to Anne Patterson for taking on the cause of pakistan in front of the u s congress and senate many a times during her tenure.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Harry Potter

MastanKhan said:


> TK,
> 
> How are you? Anne Patterson was the ambassador to pakistan----this article is intentionally written to make paf look weaker in order to smoothen the sale of F16 and aim120's----. The threat is being belittled on purpose for the benefit of pakistan---.
> 
> Anne Patterson being the pak ambassador at one time---off course she had all the information about the capabilities of paf---.
> 
> I am grateful to Anne Patterson for taking on the cause of pakistan in front of the u s congress and senate many a times during her tenure.


A Sorry feel good excuse.

Anyways you ask Mr. Robert D. Blackwill if there was anything wrong in her statement.


----------



## MastanKhan

danger007 said:


> Mastan sir i expected better post from you.... while in-case of war... every one will pay attention to counter any misadventure.... this is not 1965 or 1971 sir..... in-case if JF-17 attacked MKI base.... inviting full scale war.... and also pakistan is not in a stage to do such provocative act.... hmmm i forget one thing to ask.... whenever we are talking about per-emtive strikes many members bringing SAM.... do you think we don't have SAM's??



Hi,

I am sorry that you lost respect for me---what can I say---. So you got your sam's---okay---. If you feel secure deploying the su30's 50 miles from the border---so be it---. We think that with our capabilities---whatever they are---we have been given an opening---so what is wrong with that.

When you look at a scenario from your side and say---it favours you-----why can't it be the same for me---. Just because you think that your 'posture' is extremely 'fearsome' and we should be shaking in our pants---and we say---no---there is nothing fearful about it but rather a welcome oppurtunity----.

Now---what does that upset you.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Pfpilot

It is hard to be sure of air combat as a whole at this point in time, since there has been no genuine battle of the skies since the USAF and USN ran wild over the North Vietnamese and the Iranian Air force took the Iraqis to school. Tactics have changed radically since then, with BVR missiles finally having taken on the role envisioned for it since the Sparrow was first introduced. New generation WVR missiles are even more deadly, virtually guaranteeing a kill shot at close distance at the most awkward of angles.

The close proximity of Indo-Pak air bases to the border and concentration of AWACs makes me believe that there is a high likely hood that fighters on both sides of the border will operate with their radars off, until it is time to strike; relying instead on AWACs support to lead them to targets on the ground and in the air. Also as a result of the general chaos that would result from a large number of aircraft in the air, visual identification may become a necessity in order to confirm the aircraft is friend or foe. Under such circumstances, WVR combat becomes a far greater possibility. The focus on close quarters combat forced upon the PAF due to the rarity of BVR platforms and missiles in the 90s would come in handy, but the capabilities of the aim-9 and even more importantly, the pl-5 will be greater indicators of success. What is not being given enough attention is that with the Jf-17 making up the bulk of our force, the yet unknown capabilities of the sd-10 and pl-5 will decide if our pilots stand a chance. 

In a defensive war, the circumstances of combat favor the nation fighting on it's own soil. On the other hand, a defensive war is a result of a larger scenario that has put a nation at a massive disadvantage. Can the PAF counter the su-30? It can, but what of the strike platforms that those aircraft are escorting? If the su-30s get shot down but the jaguars get through and hit their target...who wins? Equally, if a couple of f-16 strike groups get through IAF defensive positions and pre-emptively decimate a couple of su-30 airbases, will that not radically shift the balance? Will the IAF pull back aircraft to a safer distance and in turn eliminate some of their quick response advantages? 

The highly politicized nature of the region means, wars will be short and allow both countries to go all in for a couple of weeks...a scenario that will favor Pakistan...any longer and we'll be spent before IAF reinforcements arrive from the East. In my opinion, its not a question of countering one aircraft, but creating circumstances that favor our strengths, while dulling the effectiveness of the IAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Last Hope

This thread has turned into a blender, so many flaws and loopholes other side is posting. 

Babur GLCM cannot be intercepted as it is a stealth missile. Plus, another version of Babur is being worked on which is super-sonic. Terrain hugging ability of Babur has a huge survival rate.

Please mention in points what your views are and hence it would be easy to counter them.


----------



## danger007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am sorry that you lost respect for me---what can I say---. So you got your sam's---okay---. If you feel secure deploying the su30's 50 miles from the border---so be it---. We think that with our capabilities---whatever they are---we have been given an opening---so what is wrong with that.
> 
> When you look at a scenario from your side and say---it favours you-----why can't it be the same for me---. Just because you think that your 'posture' is extremely 'fearsome' and we should be shaking in our pants---and we say---no---there is nothing fearful about it but rather a welcome oppurtunity----.
> 
> Now---what does that upset you.



i came through lot of your posts... i always find nice n mature posts... but what ever you are talking about here is, like PAF will act provocative by attacking IAF bases on ground.... will such act give PAF any advantage except barely destroying one airstrip and one squadron fighter and the result is??? world will start treating Pakistan as rogue state(no offense , US is there waiting for such situations) or bring more sanctions as well you will face full fledged war... may i know how far and how many bases that PAF have.....


----------



## paritosh

Last Hope said:


> This thread has turned into a blender, so many flaws and loopholes other side is posting.
> 
> Babur GLCM cannot be intercepted as it is a stealth missile. Plus, another version of Babur is being worked on which is super-sonic. Terrain hugging ability of Babur has a huge survival rate.
> 
> Please mention in points what your views are and hence it would be easy to counter them.



any cruise missile is a ground hugging missile...that is the whole point of it being a cruise missile. What makes babus special?


----------



## Last Hope

paritosh said:


> any cruise missile is a ground hugging missile...that is the whole point of it being a cruise missile. What makes babus special?



Okay so you mean you can shoot it down?

We'll see if it can be intercepted. That is my point.


----------



## paritosh

Pfpilot said:


> It is hard to be sure of air combat as a whole at this point in time, since there has been no genuine battle of the skies since the USAF and USN ran wild over the North Vietnamese and the Iranian Air force took the Iraqis to school. Tactics have changed radically since then, with BVR missiles finally having taken on the role envisioned for it since the Sparrow was first introduced. New generation WVR missiles are even more deadly, virtually guaranteeing a kill shot at close distance at the most awkward of angles.
> 
> The close proximity of Indo-Pak air bases to the border and concentration of AWACs makes me believe that there is a high likely hood that fighters on both sides of the border will operate with their radars off, until it is time to strike; relying instead on AWACs support to lead them to targets on the ground and in the air. Also as a result of the general chaos that would result from a large number of aircraft in the air, visual identification may become a necessity in order to confirm the aircraft is friend or foe. Under such circumstances, WVR combat becomes a far greater possibility. The focus on close quarters combat forced upon the PAF due to the rarity of BVR platforms and missiles in the 90s would come in handy, but the capabilities of the aim-9 and even more importantly, the pl-5 will be greater indicators of success. What is not being given enough attention is that with the Jf-17 making up the bulk of our force, the yet unknown capabilities of the sd-10 and pl-5 will decide if our pilots stand a chance.
> 
> In a defensive war, the circumstances of combat favor the nation fighting on it's own soil. On the other hand, a defensive war is a result of a larger scenario that has put a nation at a massive disadvantage. Can the PAF counter the su-30? It can, but what of the strike platforms that those aircraft are escorting? If the su-30s get shot down but the jaguars get through and hit their target...who wins? Equally, if a couple of f-16 strike groups get through IAF defensive and pre-emptively decimate a couple of su-30 airbases, will that not radically shift the balance? Will the IAF pull back aircraft to a safer distance and in turn eliminate some of their quick response advantages?
> 
> The highly politicized nature of the region means, wars will be short and allow both countries to go all in for a couple of weeks...a scenario that will favor Pakistan...any longer and we'll be spent before IAF reinforcements arrive from the East. In my opinion, its not a question of countering one aircraft, but creating circumstances that favor our strengths, while dulling the effectiveness of the IAF.



With this one post...you have officially become my favorite poster here on this forum.



Pfpilot said:


> It is hard to be sure of air combat as a whole at this point in time, since there has been no genuine battle of the skies since the USAF and USN ran wild over the North Vietnamese and the Iranian Air force took the Iraqis to school. Tactics have changed radically since then, with BVR missiles finally having taken on the role envisioned for it since the Sparrow was first introduced. New generation WVR missiles are even more deadly, virtually guaranteeing a kill shot at close distance at the most awkward of angles.
> 
> The close proximity of Indo-Pak air bases to the border and concentration of AWACs makes me believe that there is a high likely hood that fighters on both sides of the border will operate with their radars off, until it is time to strike; relying instead on AWACs support to lead them to targets on the ground and in the air. Also as a result of the general chaos that would result from a large number of aircraft in the air, visual identification may become a necessity in order to confirm the aircraft is friend or foe. Under such circumstances, WVR combat becomes a far greater possibility. The focus on close quarters combat forced upon the PAF due to the rarity of BVR platforms and missiles in the 90s would come in handy, but the capabilities of the aim-9 and even more importantly, the pl-5 will be greater indicators of success. What is not being given enough attention is that with the Jf-17 making up the bulk of our force, the yet unknown capabilities of the sd-10 and pl-5 will decide if our pilots stand a chance.
> 
> In a defensive war, the circumstances of combat favor the nation fighting on it's own soil. On the other hand, a defensive war is a result of a larger scenario that has put a nation at a massive disadvantage. Can the PAF counter the su-30? It can, but what of the strike platforms that those aircraft are escorting? If the su-30s get shot down but the jaguars get through and hit their target...who wins? Equally, if a couple of f-16 strike groups get through IAF defensive and pre-emptively decimate a couple of su-30 airbases, will that not radically shift the balance? Will the IAF pull back aircraft to a safer distance and in turn eliminate some of their quick response advantages?
> 
> The highly politicized nature of the region means, wars will be short and allow both countries to go all in for a couple of weeks...a scenario that will favor Pakistan...any longer and we'll be spent before IAF reinforcements arrive from the East. In my opinion, its not a question of countering one aircraft, but creating circumstances that favor our strengths, while dulling the effectiveness of the IAF.



With this one post...you have officially become my favorite poster here on this forum.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## VCheng

Pfpilot said:


> It is hard to be sure of air combat as a whole at this point in time, since there has been no genuine battle of the skies since the USAF and USN ran wild over the North Vietnamese and the Iranian Air force took the Iraqis to school. Tactics have changed radically since then, with BVR missiles finally having taken on the role envisioned for it since the Sparrow was first introduced. New generation WVR missiles are even more deadly, virtually guaranteeing a kill shot at close distance at the most awkward of angles.
> 
> The close proximity of Indo-Pak air bases to the border and concentration of AWACs makes me believe that there is a high likely hood that fighters on both sides of the border will operate with their radars off, until it is time to strike; relying instead on AWACs support to lead them to targets on the ground and in the air. Also as a result of the general chaos that would result from a large number of aircraft in the air, visual identification may become a necessity in order to confirm the aircraft is friend or foe. Under such circumstances, WVR combat becomes a far greater possibility. The focus on close quarters combat forced upon the PAF due to the rarity of BVR platforms and missiles in the 90s would come in handy, but the capabilities of the aim-9 and even more importantly, the pl-5 will be greater indicators of success. What is not being given enough attention is that with the Jf-17 making up the bulk of our force, the yet unknown capabilities of the sd-10 and pl-5 will decide if our pilots stand a chance.
> 
> In a defensive war, the circumstances of combat favor the nation fighting on it's own soil. On the other hand, a defensive war is a result of a larger scenario that has put a nation at a massive disadvantage. Can the PAF counter the su-30? It can, but what of the strike platforms that those aircraft are escorting? If the su-30s get shot down but the jaguars get through and hit their target...who wins? Equally, if a couple of f-16 strike groups get through IAF defensive and pre-emptively decimate a couple of su-30 airbases, will that not radically shift the balance? Will the IAF pull back aircraft to a safer distance and in turn eliminate some of their quick response advantages?
> 
> The highly politicized nature of the region means, wars will be short and allow both countries to go all in for a couple of weeks...a scenario that will favor Pakistan...any longer and we'll be spent before IAF reinforcements arrive from the East. In my opinion, its not a question of countering one aircraft, but creating circumstances that favor our strengths, while dulling the effectiveness of the IAF.



The next "war" is already happening on the economic front, and most of what you have posted, excellent as it is, will be left by the wayside in the overall picture.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## paritosh

Last Hope said:


> Okay so you mean you can shoot it down?
> 
> We'll see if it can be intercepted. That is my point.



There is nothing that can't be intercepted. With AWACS any bomber...missile can be targeted. A capable super-sonic fighter or a SAM can engage the missile and destroy it.


----------



## Foo_Fighter

Ok then boys (or in some cases girls) how's it going? 

Oh ok! I might be trolling...

Anyways moving on... So what are we on about?

*How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI*

Ok... Then.. sounds good...

Lets me derive this first:

1. There is no mention of JF17 in the subject line (so may be no more Su30mki God Given vs JF17 the world class bird? errm.. maybe?)

2. PAF means a lot of things... like Planning, Command, Integration etc etc etc (Sorry I don't have sources for etc)

3. Final one (errrm now I said it, what should I write... ok let me try) Is Pakistan aware/equipped to handle MKI Threat to India? (Not good or good... I wonder... came out better I guess)

Ok so now, we understand the thread topic, here are my few paisas (wish had some cents)...

1. Is JF17 equal to mki ... My answer NO! (I don't care if you like me or not)
2. Is JF 17 a good deterant to mki... My answer YES! (I don't care as long as you are not my older brother who is gonna hot me for that)
3 Is JF17 acquisition meant to neautrilize mki - ummmmmmm I think thats debatable, however as far as I know, NO! That's why J-10 maybe?
4 So how about 2 JF17 vs 1 mki - how about two me's against you (depends if you are not HHH)
5 How about my AWACS and Your Mini AWACS (Wheres my big mom and my foster mom.. mommy!!!)
6 How about our SAM's? (Goodness Uncle SAM is here too?)

Ok jokes apart...

My point of views:

> PAF vs IAF - PAF more than well defense against IAF adversary (else 2008 would be more than a good excuse for war monger hindooos)
> IAF vs PAF - IAF second line of defense will be facing PAF as IAF is more worried about PLAAF (They are ducking scary, aren't they?)
> If IAF does a surgical strike in Pakistan now - RIP IAF (whatever they send - Do you really think it's possible?)
> If PAF does a surgi.... ok ok ok I am sorry am not even going there
> Can PAF do an Air superiority against IAF in a war scenario (That's debatable, depending on how much IAF can pull out from Eastern Sector due to Global Political scenario) - though sure they can!
> Can IAF do an Air superiority against PAF in a war scenario - YES (as long as PLAAF is drunk and hugging my cousins)

So as a Pakistani you should know:

1.India is not a threat, but will react to it ( I expect the same from Pakistani brothers)
2. Indian AF is more inclined towards Eastern Hostility and power projection rather than conquering Pakistan which will be a nightmare for Indian politicians to suffice ( you guys really think, taking over countries is that easy in todays world?)
3. Is Pakistan really ready for a war right now?

So as an Indian you should know:
1. When I say I am peaceful, do I demonstrate here? (afterall you are representing a so called peaceful community)
2. We cannot annihilate Pakistan with mki's (that's fact, eat my shorts)
3. Is India really ready for a war right now?


Well if it happens, it happens... though I won't mind reading some spat between brothers (Indo-Pak) on this thread, as it keeps my sexual tendencies high at this late of night. 

Please contact me if you require further information if you may require (<----- Most of us)


Regards,
Kundan

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Foo_Fighter

danger007 said:


> what is this crap



Few pegs of JW and a little bit of more constructive discussion?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ANPP

Yaap.... War is like a team game. Winning the war is the result of the combined effort of all the assets, included army, air force, navy, intelligence.

But it is also important to improve the capability of the individual assets, so that in war scenario they can give their best & don't leave any weak point in the line.

The best option to counter the enemy fighter aircraft, just buy your own fighter. It is like the improve stealth features in the aircraft. You can design the better defensive radars, missiles etc. to counter the stealth plane. The best option is to design the offensive stealth plane.


----------



## farhan_9909

manofwar said:


> As was extensively discussed earlier, Bars had a range of 140kms at 5m2 RCS, while Klj7v2 had a 120km range at 5m2.
> It was a general coensus that due to the Su 30's overall dismal RCS, the radars of both the plane will be able to locate and lock each other at the same time. Now comes the part which you miss- Does PAF have a missile with long enough range, so it can counter Su 30??It hsa Ra'ad with a range of 350kms, which is unfortunately subsonic. So, no it does not.
> On the other hand , we have K-100 Novator, the "AWACS Killer" with a range of 400 kms and a speed of Mach 3.2. Thus, we will be able to utilize our full range of Su 30's radars............



sir so you want to hit PAF fighter aircraft with the non existing k-100..which max g turn is about 12g..?


if that missile really exist than at max it can only destroy awacs.

on the other hand BVR has a max g upto 39..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mylovepakistan

farhan_9909 said:


> sir so you want to hit PAF fighter aircraft with the non existing k-100..which max g turn is about 12g..?
> 
> 
> if that missile really exist than at max it can only destroy awacs.
> 
> on the other hand BVR has a max g upto 39..



i was wondering the same,from where they get such info or they make up stuff...


----------



## Pak47

mylovepakistan said:


> i was wondering the same,from where they get such info or they make up stuff...



Bollywood and Wiki bro.


----------



## MilSpec

Counter to MKI as i have said in the past is SAAB Eireye with F16's. It would be a big advantage if your FC1 could also be datalinked with SAAB Awacs, it would have given you an added cushion. 

There are a few aces up the sleeve of MKI and I am not referring to K172, there are others which have been pressed into service, which we will never see in public domain. 



Another very important scenario that PAF will face is ability of MKI to stand as a command outpost. When a pilot in MKI is evading a BVR, the wso can still guide other a/c to the target. This is a very potent capability, especially with quite a few MKI's in the air. 

MSP-418K Omul jamming pod and Elta ELM 8882 both are compatible on the MKI, which can give a tough time to all the PAF platform. 

please remember, MKI is never going to be a lone gun slinger, western command though has MKI close to the border, but do remember South western command primarily caters to Pak, and is well within the borders.


----------



## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> twisting on same thing with different ways will not help you bud..... i mentioned it already.... any kinda jet can be shot down.... no one denying it.... I mentioned earlier about the advantages of MKI and please mention what kinda advantages does JF-17 hold's apart from RCS.... Indian military's hq is just fine.... they don't wanna start war for no reason... maximum IA will prefer to avoid any conflict...... and except some brain frat's both PAKISTANIS and INDIANS not interested to fight another war...



I didn't exactly understand your first part. The world is scared because of the South East Asia....the water situation is about to hit the fan and that's what everyone's concerned with. Water will be the cause of the next war in SE Asia and sadly, between the two neighbors! Let's hope it gets resolved sometime.

As far as JFT vs. SU 30....not even sure why this is being debated. Different classes altogether. Avionics wise, they have some similarities as to they can both target something out to 120 KM's, granted they have missiles to support it. But otherwise, there is no comparison as the classes are altogether different.

JFT and SU 30 will have a day against each other, I am sure of that in case a war breaks out (hopefully never). But it's not a one to one match as they were both designed for different purposes and have different weight class. You don't put a light weight boxer in front of Mike Tyson. Similarly, SU 30 is a heavy class air superiority fighter design to compete the main threat of F 14 (back in the days) and now, to some degree F 15 or 18 (still not on par yet, I might add. No need to hate me, its the truth)

My sources also tell me that there is something else coming to counter the SU 30 threat or at least add more punch of the defensive capability to the PAF. They said it'll be announced sometime next year (its not J 10B), hopefully before the summer. It's a credible source but I'll believe it when I'll see something. The history tells me it's probably 90% true but I'd like to wait to see. When a heavy class jet gets into PAF, then we can have a comparison between the F-XX and SU-30 or whatever India might have on the top end in the next few years

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Nishan_101

Really didn't see any pictures of Super Sukhoi's but for sure it will be quite super.


----------



## aanshu001

I was reading this tread the major point raised by Pakistani members were JF-17 with AWACS can neutralize the treat of MKI that's same goes for IAF were Mig 21, 29, Mirage will be night mare for PAF ( both Mig 29 & Mirage 2000) are going to be heavily upgradedand will be on par with new F-16 PAF getting 

Several time Mr. Mastan Khan had said on this forum if IAF loose 25 MKI on day -1 it's the moral will down but I would like to ask can Pakistan afford to lose 25 F-16 ( and why PAF can't loose 25-30 F-16 on day 1) when your opposition is equipped with 3 times 4++ generations planes, better radar & SAM system, Dedicated spy satellite and even AWACS platform. 

For me the question is How Pakistan Should counter the Su 30 MKI after countering Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 ( no future planes included) don't tell me 150 + JF-17 with 100 F-16 combined with 50 J-10. Even with 125 Mig 21 bison with BVR missile can take 45 to 50 PAF planes (3:1 scenario I hope they will do much better) with AWACS support. 

The training and tactics apply both way and finally technology and numbers make the difference which is in IAF favor at-least for now and next 20 years.


----------



## MilSpec

aanshu001 said:


> I was reading this tread the major point raised by Pakistani members were JF-17 with AWACS can neutralize the treat of MKI that's same goes for IAF were Mig 21, 29, Mirage will be night mare for PAF ( both Mig 29 & Mirage 2000) are going to be heavily upgradedand will be on par with new F-16 PAF getting
> 
> Several time Mr. Mastan Khan had said on this forum if IAF loose 25 MKI on day -1 it's the moral will down but I would like to ask can Pakistan afford to lose 25 F-16 ( and why PAF can't loose 25-30 F-16 on day 1) when your opposition is equipped with 3 times 4++ generations planes, better radar & SAM system, Dedicated spy satellite and even AWACS platform.
> 
> For me the question is How Pakistan Should counter the Su 30 MKI after countering Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 ( no future planes included) don't tell me 150 + JF-17 with 100 F-16 combined with 50 J-10. Even with 125 Mig 21 bison with BVR missile can take 45 to 50 PAF planes (3:1 scenario I hope they will do much better) with AWACS support.
> 
> The training and tactics apply both way and finally technology and numbers make the difference which is in IAF favor at-least for now and next 20 years.


 
The thread is not about how PAF should counter IAF, it's about countering SU30MKI.

Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration, 

we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time

Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time, 

The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettision its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI. 

On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then. 

Its all about planning.

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## alimobin memon

sandy_3126 said:


> The thread is not about how PAF should counter IAF, it's about countering SU30MKI.
> 
> Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration,
> 
> we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time
> 
> Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time,
> Thumbs up to your post
> The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettision its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI.
> 
> On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then.
> 
> Its all about planning.



same point I made that not all of the indian fleet is going to attack pakistan 400 max and when i said that some trollers justt made fun ... ur


----------



## aanshu001

alimobin memon said:


> same point I made that not all of the indian fleet is going to attack pakistan 400 max and when i said that some trollers justt made fun ... ur



I do agree with you but question is hear 300 BVR capable aircraft against 100 capable BVR aircraft ( in current scenario) and in future 600 BVR capable aircraft against 250-275 BVR capable aircraft ( after Induction of 150 + JF 17 & 36 JF-17 in PAF and with IAF including 200 LCA & 126 Rafale) in next decade leaving out Super Su 30 MKI & FGFA. 

Even Navy is going to give hard time to PAF to protect it Sea Lines with it new toys 45 Mig 29 K ( forget about repeat order or Naval LCA) in present scenario INS Vikramaditya patrolling near Lakshadweep, PAF need at-least half of it's F-16 fleet to keep eye on the it as no other PAF plane had range or capabilities to do the same.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## alimobin memon

If u search through google maps or earth u will only find 2 f16 overall in pakistan on their bases. GEO eye satellite itself has no idea how many planes with BVR currently we have jf17 is speculated at 50 and 65 f16 but there are no confirmation we might have more BVR fighters than u think. If u think I am wrong then i have pics in which shenyang and chengdu airforce bases are so open that u can even see if it is j11 or j10 , jh7a ... we indeed have more than 100 but not sure how much .


----------



## Viper0011.

aanshu001 said:


> I do agree with you but question is hear 300 BVR capable aircraft against 100 capable BVR aircraft ( in current scenario) and in future 600 BVR capable aircraft against 250-275 BVR capable aircraft ( after Induction of 150 + JF 17 & 36 JF-17 in PAF and with IAF including 200 LCA & 126 Rafale) in next decade leaving out Super Su 30 MKI & FGFA.
> 
> Even Navy is going to give hard time to PAF to protect it Sea Lines with it new toys 45 Mig 29 K ( forget about repeat order or Naval LCA) in present scenario INS Vikramaditya patrolling near Lakshadweep, PAF need at-least half of it's F-16 fleet to keep eye on the it as no other PAF plane had range or capabilities to do the same.



If my little understanding is correct, it's ALWAYS been like this. India vs. Pakistan airforce ratio's been 1:3. This is just the reality that the Pakistanis have to plan for.

As far as the Navy is concerned, yes, an aircraft carrier's a big force projection. But HERE is where you are missing the point. A battle group such as USN's battle group has about 34 ships and one or more submarines as escorts over a couple of hundred miles worth of radius. In the IN's case, it's not a blue water navy, nor will it ever be able to bring the AC around the littoral waters of Pakistan. Too much danger. I am more than sure that PN's focus will be fast attack stealthy mid size crafts and PRIMARILY the submarines. A navy like IN (even though big in size) has TOO MUCH to risk by bringing an AC close by. 

Even the USN keeps the AC in the middle with layers around it as it operates in the blue water. Frankly speaking, no one would want to touch the USN AC as they know the overwhelming back to the stone age response they'll get. BUT, its not the case for India. Plus the range is little in this conflict. Now if you move the AC a few hundred miles out in safety, then you'll still operate jets off of the AC but they'll lose that quick surprise advantage. In this scenario, these jets will have no differentiation as to if they are coming off land or off an AC. You could theoretically block supply lines of Pakistan due to the size of IN and have an AC back the offensive line up a few hundred miles, but then the primary role will become air-support / air superiority over the IN ships trying to establish a blockade.
This would again get neutralize if Pakistan really gets six or more subs, some of which may be nuclear capable. Plus, induction of many fast attack mid size ships will scatter the PN as these smaller AC are harder to detect. In a conflict, it'll be difficult to neutralize all of them immediately, some of these could provide long range SAM support and anti ship missile launching capability. Plus the stealthiness may help them stay off the radar for a while.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## aanshu001

If you want to fit a BVR missile on a J-7 your wish & money but you need a capable radar to guide it. As per your assessment or speculation 50 JF-17 & 65 F-16 of all blocks now you had 115 BVR capable plane if all are capable enough (I am not sure about earlier block of F-16).


----------



## danger007

sandy_3126 said:


> The thread is not about how PAF should counter IAF, it's about countering SU30MKI.
> 
> Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration,
> 
> we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time
> 
> Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time,
> 
> The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettison its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI.
> 
> On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then.
> 
> Its all about planning.


 

Yes i do agree but one thing Even IAF strike package fire a missile without hitting any, PAF f-16 and FC-1 will be in defensive position .... 

Present Pakistan and USA relation is in bad position... PAF can't hope spare parts from USA... So they can't use all of F-16's in pakistan inventory.... So im expecting PAF package will comprise 1 or 2 F-16 and remaining will be JF-17 may be 2-4....


----------



## danger007

orangzaib said:


> If my little understanding is correct, it's ALWAYS been like this. India vs. Pakistan airforce ratio's been 1:3. This is just the reality that the Pakistanis have to plan for.
> 
> As far as the Navy is concerned, yes, an aircraft carrier's a big force projection. But HERE is where you are missing the point. A battle group such as USN's battle group has about 34 ships and one or more submarines as escorts over a couple of hundred miles worth of radius. In the IN's case, it's not a blue water navy, nor will it ever be able to bring the AC around the littoral waters of Pakistan. Too much danger. I am more than sure that PN's focus will be fast attack stealthy mid size crafts and PRIMARILY the submarines. A navy like IN (even though big in size) has TOO MUCH to risk by bringing an AC close by.
> 
> Even the USN keeps the AC in the middle with layers around it as it operates in the blue water. Frankly speaking, no one would want to touch the USN AC as they know the overwhelming back to the stone age response they'll get. BUT, its not the case for India. Plus the range is little in this conflict. Now if you move the AC a few hundred miles out in safety, then you'll still operate jets off of the AC but they'll lose that quick surprise advantage. In this scenario, these jets will have no differentiation as to if they are coming off land or off an AC. You could theoretically block supply lines of Pakistan due to the size of IN and have an AC back the offensive line up a few hundred miles, but then the primary role will become air-support / air superiority over the IN ships trying to establish a blockade.
> This would again get neutralize if Pakistan really gets six or more subs, some of which may be nuclear capable. Plus, induction of many fast attack mid size ships will scatter the PN as these smaller AC are harder to detect. In a conflict, it'll be difficult to neutralize all of them immediately, some of these could provide long range SAM support and anti ship missile launching capability. Plus the stealthiness may help them stay off the radar for a while.




actually AC need not come to closer to Pakistan.... CBG will back naval blockade from behind with air support.... mostly CBG works independently so will not part of blockade but strike missions.... PN is too small to compare with IN so need to a blue water navy( no offense) ..... PN need a aviation wing.....


----------



## Xracer

danger007 said:


> Yes i do agree but one thing Even IAF strike package fire a missile without hitting any, PAF f-16 and FC-1 will be in defensive position ....
> 
> Present Pakistan and USA relation is in bad position... PAF can't hope spare parts from USA... So they can't use all of F-16's in pakistan inventory.... So im expecting PAF package will comprise 1 or 2 F-16 and remaining will be JF-17 may be 2-4....


chalo 2 marway gaye 1 to giray gaye
You Will bring Down a 15&#8211;20 million Jf17
we wiLL bring Down a 35-40 million Plane Su30 or MiG-29

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

Xracer said:


> chalo 2 marway gaye 1 to giray gaye
> am i wrong



im not trolling bro... just giving my opinion .... and as relation with USA is in bad position you can't expect spares from them... don't you agree.....


----------



## MilSpec

danger007 said:


> Yes i do agree but one thing Even IAF strike package fire a missile without hitting any, PAF f-16 and FC-1 will be in defensive position ....
> 
> Present Pakistan and USA relation is in bad position... PAF can't hope spare parts from USA... So they can't use all of F-16's in pakistan inventory.... So im expecting PAF package will comprise 1 or 2 F-16 and remaining will be JF-17 may be 2-4....




One thing we need to keep in mind, despite all us-pak tensions, If India attacks, US will bail out it's old ally. This is my solid belief, you may disagree, but imo, if push comes to shove, US will not let PAF get overrun. Apart from that china is formidable power now, I wont be surprised to see 100 odd platforms flown to pak overnight to assist PAF.

As i said earlier, its all about planning. Element of surprise is all that matters.


----------



## Storm Force

very dangerous assumption been made by PDF seniors and mods re IAF splitting its air power into 2 in a indo pak war 

Do the pakistanis expect CHINA to dive in and fight with you... 

AND how long will the air war last.

IAF is may take a decisive edge within the first 24 hours if they plan and co ordinate a pre emptive air strike 

In which case all TOOLS necessary to do the job ie SU30MKI ,,awacs ,,mirages rafales in future will be USED 

they wont be held back for china which is wat PDF members are suggesting AND HOPING will occur..


----------



## illusion8

realistically speaking if such a air war comes into effect IAF's attrition rate would be slightly higher reason being is IAF would prefer flying it's older platforms first into Pakistan or against PAF and would leave the MKI's and the MMRCA for the second phase - that is after achieving some level of superiority or after reduction of some retaliatory strength of PAF.

Initially PAF might plan to reduce IAF strength on the tarmac with surprise raids and then will fall back into a defensive role supported by its G2A assets.


----------



## MilSpec

illusion8 said:


> realistically speaking if such a air war comes into effect IAF's attrition rate would be slightly higher reason being is IAF would prefer flying it's older platforms first into Pakistan or against PAF and would leave the MKI's and the MMRCA for the second phase - that is after achieving some level of superiority or after reduction of some retaliatory strength of PAF.
> 
> Initially PAF might plan to reduce IAF strength on the tarmac with surprise raids and then will fall back into a defensive role supported by its G2A assets.



When you have an arsenal of sticks and swords, logic dictates use your better weapons for the first blow!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

Storm Force said:


> very dangerous assumption been made by PDF seniors and mods re IAF splitting its air power into 2 in a indo pak war
> 
> Do the pakistanis expect CHINA to dive in and fight with you...
> 
> AND how long will the air war last.
> 
> IAF is may take a decisive edge within the first 24 hours if they plan and co ordinate a pre emptive air strike
> 
> In which case all TOOLS necessary to do the job ie SU30MKI ,,awacs ,,mirages rafales in future will be USED
> 
> they wont be held back for china which is wat PDF members are suggesting AND HOPING will occur..




command centers of both countries are wll aware of what the war is going to be like. The most important aspect is damage assesment and redundancies in the Net-centric assets. 

If PAF catches India sleeping and is able to cripple the ground radars, the war plans of India go into the dustbin. 
If India can recover from an initial damage and still maintain it's integrated network, then Pakistan will be at big loss. 

But as I said, this is not about India vs Pak, it's about countering MKI. 

To conclude 42 pages, 

Is MKI an lethal platform - Yes
Is MKI a threat to PAF - Yes
Can PAF (current) sucessfully counter PAF - yes
Is MKI overrated by Indian Members - Yes
All the armament of MKI is in public domain - No
Does PAF enough air assets to counter MKI- yes

Off topic observations:
Is IAF loosing its edge to PAF- Yes
Are there enough IAF assets - No
Will IAF (current) secure air supremacy - No (IMO)
Will PAF (current) have active airspace denial capability - Yes

Will china aid Pak in case of conflict - Absolute Yes
Will US aid Pak in case of conflict - Most likely

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MastanKhan

Sandy,

I appreciate your post----the fact cannot be hidden---the numbers favor the iaf---plain and simple. Iaf can place more front line air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft in any arena than the paf.

What is boils down to again---until and unless the paf does not have any one aircraft that can take the pride of iaf mano a mano---it can only run for so long---iaf will outrun and out maneouver it in due time. Would that be the first 36 hours---48 or 72 hours----it also depends upon how many aircraft does the iaf think of losing to totally dominate the pakistani skies---would it leave them with enough aircraft to protect their flanks.


----------



## danger007

sandy_3126 said:


> command centers of both countries are wll aware of what the war is going to be like. The most important aspect is damage assesment and redundancies in the Net-centric assets.
> 
> If PAF catches India sleeping and is able to cripple the ground radars, the war plans of India go into the dustbin.
> If India can recover from an initial damage and still maintain it's integrated network, then Pakistan will be at big loss.
> 
> But as I said, this is not about India vs Pak, it's about countering MKI.
> 
> To conclude 42 pages,
> 
> Is MKI an lethal platform - Yes
> Is MKI a threat to PAF - Yes
> Can PAF (current) sucessfully counter PAF - yes
> Is MKI overrated by Indian Members - Yes
> All the armament of MKI is in public domain - No
> Does PAF enough air assets to counter MKI- yes
> 
> Off topic observations:
> Is IAF loosing its edge to PAF- Yes
> Are there enough IAF assets - No
> Will IAF (current) secure air supremacy - No (IMO)
> Will PAF (current) have active airspace denial capability - Yes
> 
> Will china aid Pak in case of conflict - Absolute Yes
> Will US aid Pak in case of conflict - Most likely




I will differ with you in some points...... Yes China will give aid to pakistan in case of conflict ....
but we have to remember two points...
1. India will never start a war with pakistan..... Until unless another Mumbai kinda attacks if it is originates from pakistan.... India will try to get support from other powers before launching attacks..... but thank god our relations are improving, both countries trying to improve relation....
2. If pakistan starts war or conflict, It is waste of time to expect support from USA..... because USA interest is changing dynamically..... they want to trade with us.... I am not saying USA will support us or something , but it will try to pressure both countries to withdraw troops or ceasefire.... later there high chances for imposing sanctions on pakistan...... 

my final conclusion is , I don't think India and pakistan will fight another war within 5 years if not a decade.....


----------



## MilSpec

MastanKhan said:


> Sandy,
> 
> I appreciate your post----the fact cannot be hidden---the numbers favor the iaf---plain and simple. Iaf can place more front line air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft in any arena than the paf.
> 
> What is boils down to again---until and unless the paf does not have any one aircraft that can take the pride of iaf mano a mano---it can only run for so long---iaf will outrun and out maneouver it in due time. Would that be the first 36 hours---48 or 72 hours----it also depends upon how many aircraft does the iaf think of losing to totally dominate the pakistani skies---would it leave them with enough aircraft to protect their flanks.




thanks you sir, 


If the objective is active denial, then the disparity in numbers will not matter, hence the famous Minimum credible deterrence. I seriously doubt if PAF will wait till IAF get air supremacy to go trigger happy on N-bomb, hence If PAF or that matter PA starts loosing ground, there will either be the ceasefire enforced or my garden wont grow a damn thing for the next century.


----------



## Viper0011.

sandy_3126 said:


> thanks you sir,
> 
> 
> If the objective is active denial, then the disparity in numbers will not matter, hence the famous Minimum credible deterrence. I seriously doubt if PAF will wait till IAF get air supremacy to go trigger happy on N-bomb, hence If PAF or that matter PA starts loosing ground, there will either be the ceasefire enforced or my garden wont grow a damn thing for the next century.


 

I am IMPRESSED. Keep up the good work. For once, there's an objective discussion and not one's dik is bigger than the other!! Objectivity is what keeps people debate each other and learn from each other

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Stealth

Pakistan will never ever use its Blk52 at this time against IAF because of PK-US relations!


----------



## ANPP

Stealth said:


> Pakistan will never ever use its Blk52 at this time against IAF because of PK-US relations!


 
To defend own land every one use its all assets. PAF surly use Blk 52 against IAF to protect their skies.


----------



## Bobby

India-Pak will decide only on two basis.....Better War Management and ability to stay longer in war.....India can engage longer due to better economy.....so India had clear edge.....

@ topic

MKI 30 has biggest weapon....3D vector thrust...which puts it far better than F16....so good luck Pakistan


----------



## danger007

Bobby said:


> India-Pak will decide only on two basis.....Better War Management and ability to stay longer in war.....India can engage longer due to better economy.....so India had clear edge.....
> 
> @ topic
> 
> MKI 30 has biggest weapon....3D vector thrust...which puts it far better than F16....so good luck Pakistan



it is not 3D but 2D.... it is not a weapon, usedfor maneuver jet at low speeds....


----------



## Xracer

sandy_3126 said:


> One thing we need to keep in mind, despite all us-pak tensions, If India attacks, US will bail out it's old ally. This is my solid belief, you may disagree, but imo, if push comes to shove, US will not let PAF get overrun. Apart from that china is formidable power now, I wont be surprised to see 100 odd platforms flown to pak overnight to assist PAF.
> 
> As i said earlier, its all about planning. Element of surprise is all that matters.


But Some our Indian folks Forget That


----------



## Manticore

In conventional warfare , pakistan cant hold out for many days... the nuclear threshold of pak is very low .. nobody outside the subcontinent wants to test it , so get real


----------



## Markus

Wow, 43 pages to discuss on how to counter the Indian Sukhoi !

Trust me, you will need 143 pages to discuss on how to counter the Indian Fulcrums and Mirages, dont count them out.


----------



## acetophenol

ANTIBODY said:


> In conventional warfare , pakistan cant hold out for many days... the nuclear threshold of pak is very low .. nobody outside the subcontinent wants to test it , so get real



to talk real,
in case of a war,India may perform better than pakistan,but we'll be like pushed back in the economic front


----------



## ANPP

ANTIBODY said:


> In conventional warfare , pakistan cant hold out for many days... the nuclear threshold of pak is very low .. nobody outside the subcontinent wants to test it , so get real


 
Use of nuke doesn't depend on your threshold. Your politician will like to go for some sort of agreement.


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

India will depend upon her air force , while PAKISTAN will depend upon missile technology ...
our air force has to defend against intruders ....... we have relatively less air space to defend ......
so india no more has that much upper hand now on............ all we need BVRs, ............
and in war scenario radar range of 80km is quite effective because of close borders .....



acetophenol said:


> to talk real,
> in case of a war,India may perform better than pakistan,but we'll be like pushed back in the economic front


it is your euphoria ................. come out of it , war with PAKISTAN mean an end to india too...
both countries should look for peace and indians should come out of such kind of euphoria that they will destroy PAKISTAn etc......... not possible for them now....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> India will depend upon her air force , while PAKISTAN will depend upon missile technology ...
> our air force has to defend against intruders ....... we have relatively less air space to defend ......
> so india no more has that much upper hand now on............ all we need BVRs, ............
> and in war scenario radar range of 80km is quite effective because of close borders .....
> 
> 
> it is your euphoria ................. come out of it , war with PAKISTAN mean an end to india too...
> both countries should look for peace and indians should come out of such kind of euphoria that they will destroy PAKISTAn etc......... not possible for them now....



Unable to get your logic??


----------



## A.Rafay

Time for making JF-18 to counter su-30 and alternative to f-18


----------



## danger007

A.Rafay said:


> Time for making JF-18 to counter su-30 and alternative to f-18



J-18??? is it real??? still an speculated jet...


----------



## ANPP

A.Rafay said:


> Time for making JF-18 to counter su-30 and alternative to f-18


 

another illusion for pakistani awam.


----------



## Viper0011.

Markus said:


> Wow, 43 pages to discuss on how to counter the Indian Sukhoi !
> 
> Trust me, you will need 143 pages to discuss on how to counter the Indian Fulcrums and Mirages, dont count them out.


 

In other words, people wrote crap for 43 pages, they'll spent 43 more pages to write crap about a scenario that gets dragged into troll-crap all the time. There is rarely some good discussion on the topic.

I've written up a couple of analysis and there are some by others too. They all talk about how to deal with SU-30, pros and cons. This thread seem to be an ultimate exaggeration and psy-op b.s by the Indian fan-boys. SU-30 is an advanced threat due to its size and weapons carrying capability.....nothing more. It does get locked upon (unlike Raptor from away). So unless we are talking 'how to counter F-22 Raptor, it should be a couple of page worth of discussion on the topic!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## danger007

orangzaib said:


> In other words, people wrote crap for 43 pages, they'll spent 43 more pages to write crap about a scenario that gets dragged into troll-crap all the time. There is rarely some good discussion on the topic.
> 
> I've written up a couple of analysis and there are some by others too. They all talk about how to deal with SU-30, pros and cons. This thread seem to be an ultimate exaggeration and psy-op b.s by the Indian fan-boys. SU-30 is an advanced threat due to its size and weapons carrying capability.....nothing more. It does get locked upon (unlike Raptor from away). So unless we are talking 'how to counter F-22 Raptor, it should be a couple of page worth of discussion on the topic!



hmmm what about Pakistan fanboys ..... 

Raptor is out equation .... what eva we discuss will neva happen in war theater.....but we are fighting each other on internet forums  on daily basis


----------



## ANPP

orangzaib said:


> I've written up a couple of analysis and there are some by others too. They all talk about how to deal with SU-30, pros and cons. This thread seem to be an ultimate exaggeration and psy-op b.s by the Indian fan-boys. SU-30 is an advanced threat due to its size and weapons carrying capability.....nothing more. It does get locked upon (unlike Raptor from away). So unless we are talking 'how to counter F-22 Raptor, it should be a couple of page worth of discussion on the topic!


 
The rapo which is hold by Raptor in world, that goes to MKI in south asia.

MKI is threat not just die to size & weapon carrying capability but also high maneuverability ( although less than F22) which make it deadly.

For now only one country uses Raptor & I am sure it is not PAK, so no discussion 'how to counter F-22 Raptor'.

Can any pak bhai give me the source about KJ7v2 radar.....


----------



## Hobo1

sandy_3126 said:


> command centers of both countries are wll aware of what the war is going to be like. The most important aspect is damage assesment and redundancies in the Net-centric assets.
> 
> If PAF catches India sleeping and is able to cripple the ground radars, the war plans of India go into the dustbin.
> If India can recover from an initial damage and still maintain it's integrated network, then Pakistan will be at big loss.
> 
> But as I said, this is not about India vs Pak, it's about countering MKI.
> 
> To conclude 42 pages,
> 
> Is MKI an lethal platform - Yes
> Is MKI a threat to PAF - Yes
> Can PAF (current) sucessfully counter PAF - yes
> Is MKI overrated by Indian Members - Yes
> All the armament of MKI is in public domain - No
> Does PAF enough air assets to counter MKI- yes
> 
> Off topic observations:
> Is IAF loosing its edge to PAF- Yes
> Are there enough IAF assets - No
> Will IAF (current) secure air supremacy - No (IMO)
> Will PAF (current) have active airspace denial capability - Yes
> 
> Will china aid Pak in case of conflict - Absolute Yes
> Will US aid Pak in case of conflict - Most likely


 
Pakistanis should worry how will they counter the combined might of Mig29s and Mirage 2000s which even their current avatars more than enough. Su30 mki with their Huge radars would be excellent platform for firing Bvr and Brahmos. 
US coming to aid Pak at time Indo-Pak conflict....Bro this is not 70s. 
China coming to Pak's rescue would mean they risking their whole export based economy and China's previous record has shown they have never meddled in Indo-Pak matters. 
In previous conflicts we had with Pak it owing
to international pressure we could not properly punish the pakistanis. This time we would show full might of Russian military h\w.
And not to forget Israel would love to wash its hand in IndoPak conflict. More than China and USA it is Israel which is likely to get involved in IndoPak Harakiri.
And not to forget MKI can use Brahmos like a BVRs. Read on this forum. Pakistan AWACS would be sitting ducks for MKI if MKI's radar could guide Brahmos for that long. 
As much i know of Pak Fauj's character they are likely to flee with their planes in any event of full blown war with India.


----------



## aanshu001

MKI can use Brahmos like a BVR are you gone mad.. Brahmos is meant for tactical use to destroy command center and radar bases not as air to air missile, Novator K-100 is supposed to be AWACS killer.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hobo1

aanshu001 said:


> MKI can use Brahmos like a BVR are you gone mad.. Brahmos is meant for tactical use to destroy command center and radar bases not as air to air missile, Novator K-100 is supposed to be AWACS killer.


 
Sorry got confused R-37 which is BVR they use on Mig31.


----------



## MilSpec

Hobo1 said:


> Pakistanis should worry how will they counter the combined might of Mig29s and Mirage 2000s which even their current avatars more than enough. Su30 mki with their Huge radars would be excellent platform for firing Bvr and Brahmos.
> US coming to aid Pak at time Indo-Pak conflict....Bro this is not 70s.
> China coming to Pak's rescue would mean they risking their whole export based economy and China's previous record has shown they have never meddled in Indo-Pak matters.
> In previous conflicts we had with Pak it owing
> to international pressure we could not properly punish the pakistanis. This time we would show full might of Russian military h\w.
> And not to forget Israel would love to wash its hand in IndoPak conflict. More than China and USA it is Israel which is likely to get involved in IndoPak Harakiri.
> And not to forget MKI can use Brahmos like a BVRs. Read on this forum. Pakistan AWACS would be sitting ducks for MKI if MKI's radar could guide Brahmos for that long.
> As much i know of Pak Fauj's character they are likely to flee with their planes in any event of full blown war with India.




what is the point of this post? are you trying to educate me, inform me, ....? try learning about aircombat, you are here to learn about defence matters. try understanding my post, go through informative posts by senior members, formulate your argument or views and then post. You do not have the basic understanding of brahmos or bvr regime and claim to know of pak faujs character. Be respectful of other nationalities here, Treat others here just the way you want to be treated.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## abdulbarijan

self delete

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> hmmm what about Pakistan fanboys .....
> Raptor is out equation .... what eva we discuss will neva happen in war theater.....but we are fighting each other on internet forums  on daily basis



Well my man, my post was for both, Indian and Pakistani fan boys. However, Su-30's over exaggerated by the Indian community so not sure how I can change the fact and relieve the Indians out of the fact.
SU-30 is not a F-22 of South Asia. Not sure why are you guys spending so much time on it. It's a bigger plane with bigger load carrying capability. Nothing more. Due to close proximity, advantageous capabilities are minimized. So that's that. There are more than one way to counter SU-30 or anything else but F-22 (unless you are in dog fight with F-22 and happen to be Euro Fighter, than you might have luck). So let's have a bit more productive discussion please.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ANPP

orangzaib said:


> .........SU-30 is not a F-22 of South Asia........ It's a bigger plane with bigger load carrying capability. Nothing more. Due to close proximity, advantageous capabilities are minimized. So that's that. There are more than one way to counter SU-30 or anything else but F-22 (unless you are in dog fight with F-22 and happen to be Euro Fighter, than you might have luck).....


 
PAk- f16, Jf17
SRI- MIG 27
BAN- MIG29
IAF- MIG 29, MIRAG 2000,

these are the planes which are operate in SA.
There are too many way to counter the MKI, but those planes who are using too small radar & IRST how they able to detect MKI first. So MkI is rapator in SA.
MKI is also has highest turn rate & AoA.


----------



## abdulbarijan

ANPP said:


> PAk- f16, Jf17
> SRI- MIG 27
> BAN- MIG29
> IAF- MIG 29, MIRAG 2000,
> 
> these are the planes which are operate in SA.
> There are too many way to counter the MKI, but those planes who are using too small radar & IRST how they able to detect MKI first. So MkI is rapator in SA.
> MKI is also has highest turn rate & AoA.


 

Its not just about the radars ... remember its always the combo of a good reduced RCS with a good powerful radar which doesn't light up like a beacon (in other words AESA) which makes a good BVR platform (also the ECM's and all that)....


SU-30 MKI may have a powerful PESA radar but also has a *humongous RCS*, similarly u can check out the post about the *huge IR signature* that the MKI will present .... surely maneuverability does help but does that change the fact that its a huge aircraft and will be easier to keep eyes on and if shot upon its huge engines will become a magnet for the IR seeker of a missile....

Su-30 MKI is overrated by quite a few of Indian friends no doubt its a good fighter but it certainly is not the best ...or even the second best like proclaimed by quite a few...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

SU30MKI 

IS the best in south ASIA. and that is very important to both pak & indian posters 

THE BEST because its superior in 90% of the areas that are vital ie 

Speed, range, payload, AOA, radar, jammers & EW warefare.

SIMPLY spinning the RCS is not going to help JFT or PAF get over 270+ su30mki 

The TWR on the JFT is poor 
The weapons load and range is average
The EW suite & jammers unknown quantity 

Where and how do you take 38 THUNDERS to take on 150 su30mki 

PAF defense will STAND OR FALL BY THE formidabl;e combat proven F16 whose radar weapons & TWR are massively improved over the THUNDER despite being 20 years older then the thunder

Professional PDF posters know that PAF will be relying on F16 X 63 PLANES + AWACS to save the day against a onslaught by IAF which will be dominated in nos by the massive flankers


----------



## Black Widow

abdulbarijan said:


> Its not just about the radars ... remember its always the combo of a good reduced RCS with a good powerful radar which doesn't light up like a beacon (in other words AESA) which makes a good BVR platform (also the ECM's and all that)....
> 
> 
> SU-30 MKI may have a powerful PESA radar but also has a *humongous RCS*, similarly u can check out the post about the *huge IR signature* that the MKI will present .... surely maneuverability does help but does that change the fact that its a huge aircraft and will be easier to keep eyes on and if shot upon its huge engines will become a magnet for the IR seeker of a missile....
> 
> Su-30 MKI is overrated by quite a few of Indian friends no doubt its a good fighter but it certainly is not the best ...or even the second best like proclaimed by quite a few...




RCS Doesn't play any role for 4th Gen fighter planes. RCS is useless for The plane which carry External payload. Do you ever heard of Air-Superiority fighters???? The term was coined with F15, which has same RCS Su27 has. Till date no one has challenged AIr superiority of F15. Su27 family was born on same principle...

I repeat, RCS doesn't play any significant role in 4th generation fighters. And it is not easy for same generation , same class fighter to kill each other...


----------



## abdulbarijan

Black Widow said:


> RCS Doesn't play any role for 4th Gen fighter planes. RCS is useless for The plane which carry External payload. Do you ever heard of Air-Superiority fighters???? The term was coined with F15, which has same RCS Su27 has. Till date no one has challenged AIr superiority of F15. Su27 family was born on same principle...
> 
> I repeat, RCS doesn't play any significant role in 4th generation fighters. And it is not easy for same generation , same class fighter to kill each other...



RCS plays a role in detection....and USA wouldn't be going nuts by investing millions in reducing the RCS of latter blocks of F-16 and F-18 and creating an entire new version of an F-15 if RCS didn't matter....


----------



## Black Widow

abdulbarijan said:


> RCS plays a role in detection....and USA wouldn't be going nuts by investing millions in reducing the RCS of latter blocks of F-16 and F-18 and creating an entire new version of an F-15 if RCS didn't matter....




Tomorrow morning I will teach you how RCS doesn't matter for 4th gen fighter.. for today you read this

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/20908-rcs-different-fighters.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paan Singh

Su-30 works like carrots n sticks..
its RCs looks like carrot but its punch is like sticks 
and india never disclosed the actual Rcs +
with weapon load,RCs increases only


----------



## Captain Spark

I think there is no point planning to only a particular type of plane......also in combat, however sophisticated the technology is numbers do matter.....so, I just thought it is better to look at the two country's aircrafts and their numbers.

PAF :

1. F-16 Fighting Falcon - - 77
2. JF-17 Thunder - - - - - 100
3. Dassault Mirage III - - - 75
4. Dassault Mirage 5 - - - - 82
5. Chengdu F7 skybolt - - - 186
6. FC20 - - - - - - - - - - - 36

Total = 556



IAF:

1. Su 30 MKI - - - - - - - - - - - - - 157
2. Mig 29 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 68
3. Dassault mirage 2000 - - - - - - - 57
4. HAL Tejas mark - I - - - - - - - - 39
5. Mig 21 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 153
6. SEPECAT Jaguar - - - - - - - - - -151
7. Dassault Rafale - - - - - - - - - - 126

Total = 751


Considering each type of plane in one's arsenal has an equally capable rival with the opponent...greater numbers would ensure successful missions. We shud remember that air battles are won not by downing more planes of the enemy....but by achieving a specific objective during combat.


----------



## danger007

^^^^ welcome to the forum.... first know about the fighter jets .... they don't have 36 J-10 yet.... still no contract signed...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## hurt

danger007 said:


> ^^^^ welcome to the forum.... first know about the fighter jets .... they don't have 36 J-10 yet.... still no contract signed...



your fighters are on order


----------



## ashok321

RCS is not the only criteria which has its pros n cons......

The Emerging Threats to U.S. Stealth Jets - Popular Mechanics


----------



## VelocuR

Useless datas without basic understanding, we don't want to explain all over again from A to Z. 

Thanks!



Captain Spark said:


> I think there is no point planning to only a particular type of plane......also in combat, however sophisticated the technology is numbers do matter.....so, I just thought it is better to look at the two country's aircrafts and their numbers.
> 
> PAF :
> 
> 1. F-16 Fighting Falcon - - 77
> 2. JF-17 Thunder - - - - - 100
> 3. Dassault Mirage III - - - 75
> 4. Dassault Mirage 5 - - - - 82
> 5. Chengdu F7 skybolt - - - 186
> 6. FC20 - - - - - - - - - - - 36
> 
> Total = 556
> 
> 
> 
> IAF:
> 
> 1. Su 30 MKI - - - - - - - - - - - - - 157
> 2. Mig 29 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 68
> 3. Dassault mirage 2000 - - - - - - - 57
> 4. HAL Tejas mark - I - - - - - - - - 39
> 5. Mig 21 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 153
> 6. SEPECAT Jaguar - - - - - - - - - -151
> 7. Dassault Rafale - - - - - - - - - - 126
> 
> Total = 751
> 
> 
> Considering each type of plane in one's arsenal has an equally capable rival with the opponent...greater numbers would ensure successful missions. We shud remember that air battles are won not by downing more planes of the enemy....but by achieving a specific objective during combat.


----------



## Storm Force

Captain spark your fighter nos are seriously exaggerated for PAF 

PAF has 63 F16 (mlu/52) NOT 77

And 40 JFT not 100 

IAF will not have 126 RAFALE until 2025..... 

they havent even signed the DEAL YET stil negotiating terms TOT and price


----------



## batmannow

The best PAF can do, is to raze its JF17z blk2 numbers like 200 & get some 60- J-16s & 80 J-31 in comming 3to4 years !

What ever is said for j-16s in china , they r far better thn of Su-30mkis which india is having now & j-31 will surly will be a treat to watch against Rafaels in future!
If PAF can genrte such a force of modren airfeelt surly it will break the IAF,s edge for along long time ?


----------



## Gentelman

danger007 said:


> ^^^^ welcome to the forum.... first know about the fighter jets .... they don't have 36 J-10 yet.... still no contract signed...



We dont have J 10 bt comeon dude.. contact had been signed and they are on order..... as per PAF requirements.....


----------



## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Gentelman said:


> We dont have J 10 bt comeon dude.. contact had been signed and they are on order..... as per PAF requirements.....



Order is fine, but do you have J 10s ? No !!


----------



## SQ8

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> Order is fine, but do you have J 10s ? No !!



And? Your point being?


----------



## Gentelman

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> Order is fine, but do you have J 10s ? No !!



no we dont have now........
soo u dont have LCA!!


----------



## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Gentelman said:


> no we dont have now........
> soo u dont have LCA!!



Thread is about SU 30 and not LCA.. Get a clue..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gentelman

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> Thread is about SU 30 and not LCA.. Get a clue..



the thread is also not about J 10 its about SU 30.... 
u too get a clue.


----------



## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Gentelman said:


> the thread is also not about J 10 its about SU 30....
> u too get a clue.



Well, its about PAF's assets that can counter Su 30.. And some Pakistani brought in J10 as an alternative.. And you thought of LCA


----------



## arbit

When all is said and done, the difference will not be more than 18 - 20 in favour of India. That too when strategies and numbers are taken into account. 
In a battle this 18-20 edge will prove to be decisive if the war prolongs. 

However if you insist on asking a question on how to counter MKI then one on one MKI is better than what Pakistan can field and difficult to counter.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Induction of stealthy J31 fighters will help in some way...........


----------



## 帅的一匹

SU30MKI is not a proven jet yet, ecessive fear is not neccessary at all.


----------



## IndianArmy

wanglaokan said:


> SU30MKI is not a proven jet yet, ecessive fear is not neccessary at all.



The question is how to counter it when the proving stage comes.


----------



## arp2041

wanglaokan said:


> Induction of stealthy J31 fighters will help in some way...........



Will IAF remain dependent on sukhois only when neighbors will be inducting STEALTH fighters??? NO, Su-30MKIs are only a start, Rafale, FGFA, AMCA will follow.




wanglaokan said:


> SU30MKI is not a proven jet yet, ecessive fear is not neccessary at all.



No one is fearing it, it's part of the job of world AFs to assess the capabilities of it's enemies & find solutions for it.


----------



## Shinigami

wanglaokan said:


> SU30MKI is not a proven jet yet, ecessive fear is not neccessary at all.



do you know which is the most proven fighter? US navy F6F Hellcat. so lets buy a ton of them. just 50,000$ each







why spend 180,000,000$ for a single unproven F22?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Gentelman

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> Well, its about PAF's assets that can counter Su 30.. And some Pakistani brought in J10 as an alternative.. And you thought of LCA



well said.......
i just didnot noticed...hehe...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gentelman

Shinigami said:


> do you know which is the most proven fighter? US navy F6F Hellcat. so lets buy a ton of them. just 50,000$ each
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why spend 180,000,000$ for a single unproven F22?



it's generation difference buddy...
if someone wanna buy planes of that generation they surely slect F6 hellcat
well F-22 is most proven comparing to planes in its generation.... i really doubt if there are any expect twice or thrice.... 
if u want a 5th gen fighter than u will have to slect one.....
surely i hope SU 30 will be an alternate to F-22 at some extent.....


----------



## abdulbarijan

Shinigami said:


> do you know which is the most proven fighter? US navy F6F Hellcat. so lets buy a ton of them. just 50,000$ each
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why spend 180,000,000$ for a single unproven F22?



*Indeed a very good point ... *

Guess that clears the other half of *"unproven"* rants from our indian counterparts about JF-17's,J-11's,J-31's,J-20's,J-10B's and J-15's basically the *"unproven" Chinese tech*..

Thank you for clearing that out once and for all


----------



## Shinigami

abdulbarijan said:


> *Indeed a very good point ... *
> 
> Guess that clears the other half of *"unproven"* rants from our indian counterparts about JF-17's,J-11's,J-31's,J-20's,J-10B's and J-15's basically the *"unproven" Chinese tech*..
> 
> Thank you for clearing that out once and for all



Nope. aircrafts dont matter in bieng proven or not. what matters is the capability/history of its makers.
Unproven chinese tech makes a big deal, especially when compared to proven US/Russian/french tech.




Gentelman said:


> it's generation difference buddy...
> if someone wanna buy planes of that generation they surely slect F6 hellcat
> well F-22 is most proven comparing to planes in its generation.... i really doubt if there are any expect twice or thrice....
> if u want a 5th gen fighter than u will have to slect one.....
> surely i hope SU 30 will be an alternate to F-22 at some extent.....



i was being sarcastic


----------



## abdulbarijan

Shinigami said:


> Nope. aircrafts dont matter in bieng proven or not. what matters is the capability/history of its makers.
> *Unproven chinese tech makes a big deal, especially when compared to proven US/Russian/french tech*.



Great ... but how would you assess Chinese getting to the 5th generation mark earlier than the *"PROVEN"* France and European technological bases...

Or maybe the PLAAF getting multiple locks on the proven Russian technology incorporated in amongst the most successful of its export fighters the SU-30, the jf-17 hammering the proven F-16 (both aircraft and technology)

The point im trying to make is, If *y'all wanna stick to a standard for one thing *(unproven being meaningless for platforms like SU-30) *dont go and develop another standard for your adversaries *(unproven being very meaningful when it comes to technology and history of the developer... which is funny because the last time I checked Indian friends mostly implied that China copies the "proven Russian technology" and J-10 has so much to do with the "proven Israeli technologies" ....

But if you wanna get this standard for history etc of the developer than *why dont you criticize LCA and HAL on the same level as many Indian friends do on "unproven" chinese technologies *... 

*Just wanna get the story from your side straightened out as I always find it hard to understand ... Your input will mean alot ... thanx for replyin the first time too*


----------



## Gentelman

abdulbarijan said:


> Great ... but how would you assess Chinese getting to the 5th generation mark earlier than the *"PROVEN"* France and European technological bases...
> 
> Or maybe the PLAAF getting multiple locks on the proven Russian technology incorporated in amongst the most successful of its export fighters the SU-30, the jf-17 hammering the proven F-16 (both aircraft and technology)
> 
> The point im trying to make is, If *y'all wanna stick to a standard for one thing *(unproven being meaningless for platforms like SU-30) *dont go and develop another standard for your adversaries *(unproven being very meaningful when it comes to technology and history of the developer... which is funny because the last time I checked Indian friends mostly implied that China copies the "proven Russian technology" and J-10 has so much to do with the "proven Israeli technologies" ....
> 
> But if you wanna get this standard for history etc of the developer than *why dont you criticize LCA and HAL on the same level as many Indian friends do on "unproven" chinese technologies *...
> 
> *Just wanna get the story from your side straightened out as I always find it hard to understand ... Your input will mean alot ... thanx for replyin the first time too*



every new thing is unproven...
u hav to take risk to generate something..
there are equal chances of sucess and failure. 
Thumbs up for all un proven tech as they r made up of many ideas and alot of hardwork. .


----------



## Storm Force

PAKISTANIS ask how can the SU30MKI be countered. ????????

ANSWER 

USA weapons are risk of sanctions !!!!!!! rules out F16 IN LARGE NOS especially now that INDIA is a very important ally of USA

Euro weapons like rafale & typhoon are simply too expensive for PAF (and no body has embargoed you people like i keep hearing)

Russian Flankers are never gonna happen india main ally.

THAT LEAVES your one ONLY OTHER OPTION. CHINA

affordable. sanction free. and close ally 

NOW THE QUESTION which chinease fighter will answer 270 su30mki by 2016 (15 sqds)

JF17 avialable now and affordable BUT how many AND can they be a realistic answer

J10/FC20 = WHAT you waiting for the SU30MKI is here and nos are already 150+

SOME ONE SAID J31 = get real like 2025-2030


----------



## batmannow

Storm Force said:


> PAKISTANIS ask how can the SU30MKI be countered. ????????
> 
> ANSWER
> 
> USA weapons are risk of sanctions !!!!!!! rules out F16 IN LARGE NOS especially now that INDIA is a very important ally of USA
> 
> Euro weapons like rafale & typhoon are simply too expensive for PAF (and no body has embargoed you people like i keep hearing)
> 
> Russian Flankers are never gonna happen india main ally.
> 
> THAT LEAVES your one ONLY OTHER OPTION. CHINA
> 
> affordable. sanction free. and close ally
> 
> NOW THE QUESTION which chinease fighter will answer 270 su30mki by 2016 (15 sqds)
> 
> JF17 avialable now and affordable BUT how many AND can they be a realistic answer
> 
> J10/FC20 = WHAT you waiting for the SU30MKI is here and nos are already 150+
> 
> SOME ONE SAID J31 = get real like 2025-2030



*so your post is bassed on some one said?*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

LET ME BE BLUNT 

There are many ways to answer SU30MKI today (you dont have to wait for FIFTH gen fighters which are not here for 20 more years)

IF any other nation wanted to answer SU30MKI threat they would go out and acquire 

F18 super hornets F16/52 F15silent eagle Typhoon or Rafael... 

Any one of those 4++ GEN FIGHTERS insufficient nos would be the ideal answer (suffient nos means 150+) 

YOUR LEFT with JF17 & maybe small nos J10 in the future.

PAF has attempted to counter SU30MKI with their one and only option chinease fighters 

The five 4++ fighters i mentioned HAVE OBSTACLES that PAF cannot overcome...


----------



## Abingdonboy

Storm Force said:


> LET ME BE BLUNT
> 
> There are many ways to answer SU30MKI today (you dont have to wait for FIFTH gen fighters which are not here for 20 more years)
> 
> IF any other nation wanted to answer SU30MKI threat they would go out and acquire
> 
> F18 super hornets F16/52 F15silent eagle Typhoon or Rafael...
> 
> Any one of those 4++ GEN FIGHTERS insufficient nos would be the ideal answer (suffient nos means 150+)
> 
> YOUR LEFT with JF17 & maybe small nos J10 in the future.
> 
> PAF has attempted to counter SU30MKI with their one and only option chinease fighters
> 
> The five 4++ fighters i mentioned HAVE OBSTACLES that PAF cannot overcome...




F-16 BLK 70 will be enough pro only until the MKIs are upgraded to Super std Blk52 is not good enough for a 1:1'fight


----------



## Zabaniyah

Storm Force said:


> USA weapons are risk of sanctions !!!!!!! rules out F16 IN LARGE NOS especially now that INDIA is a very important ally of USA



India and USA are not technically allies. Try not to use the term too loosely. 

And yes, US weapons are sanction-prone. That is why you lot rejected the F-16 and F-18.


----------



## Storm Force

Abingdon.

F16/60 with AESA radar could take out su30mki imo ie better much faster radar and better BVR missle

F16/52 would lose out on inferior radar, smaller jammers and SMALLER less powerful EW suites but only MARGINALLY. 

for PAF it has to be a AESA radar equipped FC20/J10 but can they get the finances in place to get 100+


----------



## Storm Force

LOKI IN REPLY 



> India and USA are not technically allies. Try not to use the term too loosely.
> 
> And yes, US weapons are sanction-prone. That is why you lot rejected the F-16 and F-18.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-46.html#ixzz2F8vreIvR



You clearly have not followed the last 10 years and the massive strategic shift in india usa relations. NOR do you understand the huge influence of the USA indian businessman LOBBY in washington or the help the israelis have given in forging the indo /usa strategic cliche.

civilian nuclear deal. C17 globemaster, C130 , p8 posedions, FDI deals and 5 day STATE VISITS for both barak obama and GEORGE BUSH 

After Japan INDIA is the most important nation in ASIA to the USA as they see things 
ahma


----------



## batmannow

Storm Force said:


> LET ME BE BLUNT
> 
> There are many ways to answer SU30MKI today (you dont have to wait for FIFTH gen fighters which are not here for 20 more years)
> 
> IF any other nation wanted to answer SU30MKI threat they would go out and acquire
> 
> F18 super hornets F16/52 F15silent eagle Typhoon or Rafael...
> 
> Any one of those 4++ GEN FIGHTERS insufficient nos would be the ideal answer (suffient nos means 150+)
> 
> YOUR LEFT with JF17 & maybe small nos J10 in the future.
> 
> PAF has attempted to counter SU30MKI with their one and only option chinease fighters
> 
> The five 4++ fighters i mentioned HAVE OBSTACLES that PAF cannot overcome...



*is this also on some one said?*great logic?

open up your eyes & see this





thats the answer PAF, can give any time soon they want, with a few modifications?


*J-16 Red Eagle (Jianjiji-16 Fighter aircraft 16) *

*The J-16, built by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC), is reportedly a stealthy dedicated attack version of the J-11B (Su-27) multirole fighter featuring active electronically scanned array [AESA] radar and an internal weapons bay. Chinese authorities have not formally released informtion on these developments. It was rumored in November 2010 that SAC was developing a 4.5th generation heavy multi-role fighter with a conventional layout based on J-11B. First flight of this reportedly "Silent Flanker" was rumored at that time to be within 2011.

According to Hui Tong, the J-16 is a version of the J-11BS comparable to American F-15E. Sort of a 'strike flanker'. "The aircraft can be viewed as an upgraded version of Su-30MKK based on its mission and capability, which is comparable to American F-15E. First flight was rumored to be between 2011-2012. J-16 has tandem seats with a WSO sitting in the backseat. It features an enhanced fire-control system with additional AG modes. Besides PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs, it could also carry the same precision guided weapons being carried by JH-7A, such as KD-88 ASM and LS-500J LGB. Compared to JH-7A, J-16 is expected to have a more powerful radar, a greater weapon load (8t) and a longer range (4,000km). "

In May 2011 China Military Report stated that "China's new 4.5 generation heavy fighter (Chinese name "Red Eagle"). August 2008 has been officially off the assembly line in Shenyang Aircraft Factory, in October 2008 in Beijing, an Air Force base in the outskirts of the first flight, October 12, 2009 conducted a second test, a complete success. J-18 is the 4.5 generation fighter aircraft are air superiority fighter heavy. Forward-swept wing fighter design using ultra-stealth characteristics, and install a laser active phased array radar, built-in weapons bay and two large thrust-vectoring engines. Service time is expected around 2015. *


----------



## batmannow

ashok321 said:


> Why is yr collar up on chinese aircraft?


i never denied your IAF ACs arent from russia, france, or from a place called MARS?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ashok321

batmannow said:


> i never denied your IAF ACs arent from russia, france, or from a place called MARS?



Thats okey, but....
The topic is?
How PAF should counter su- 30...
India has it, while pakistan does not have it yet....
You are just banking on the future..
And then...
India would hv had raffale down the road...
Got it...


----------



## Windjammer

ashok321 said:


> And the topic is?
> Not migs that u were talking about for nothing right?



We are talking about air combat = aircraft, MiGs or otherwise. !!


----------



## Storm Force

STICK TO THE TOPIC GUYS.

Countering the VERY LARGE FLEET of SU30 MKI FLEET. 

Your only options are 

JF17
J10/FC20
J11
J16 

J11/J16 being the same model as the SU30MKI without TVC engines israeli jammers & french avionics 

*** Personally i think PAF has laid its bed with the 63 F16s & JF17 Thunders* 

I think PAF will not BUY FC20/ and even less likely J11/J16 especially if THE IAF MMRCA deal is cancelled


----------



## 帅的一匹

I thnk India is overhyper of MKI, j10b will be enough to handle it. China should provide enough quantity of J10b to safeguard Pakistan's sky. Damn why not give 50for free? Why the hell china need so many USD reserves? China shall make it sure Pakistan has enough firepower to protect it from potential India threat. I understand the financial predicament PAF face, hope it will be better off in the future. China is always willing to extend necessary help any time any where. My solution is the biggest counter to MKI is China itself.


----------



## 帅的一匹

India should figure way out to make peace with China and Pakistan, not try to bully Pakistan.

India should figure way out to make peace with China and Pakistan, not try to bully Pakistan.


----------



## Viper0011.

wanglaokan said:


> India should figure way out to make peace with China and Pakistan, not try to bully Pakistan.
> 
> India should figure way out to make peace with China and Pakistan, not try to bully Pakistan.



I agree. Peace is the only solution to the India-Pakistan situation. Bully has never and will not work. With the intro of nukes, the bully part's out of question. Both need to sit down and start talking their issues out and find mutual resolutions. 
Bullying in fact, might get everyone into a nuclear war causing hundreds of millions of people to suffer. At the end, there won't be anyone saying 'hey, look, I WON'. So make peace between the two and let people prosper in both countries. Friendly ties will increase economic activity that will help millions of people on each side and will help better people's lives!!!


----------



## Bang Galore

orangzaib said:


> I agree. Peace is the only solution to the India-Pakistan situation.



We have peace now. Anyone fighting ? What you are suggesting probably is the resolution of issues between the countries. That is a tougher job. When Pakistan learns to live with the status quo, peace will follow. No other solution.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## batmannow

Storm Force said:


> STICK TO THE TOPIC GUYS.
> 
> Countering the VERY LARGE FLEET of SU30 MKI FLEET.
> 
> Your only options are
> 
> JF17
> J10/FC20
> J11
> J16
> 
> J11/J16 being the same model as the SU30MKI without TVC engines israeli jammers & french avionics
> 
> *** Personally i think PAF has laid its bed with the 63 F16s & JF17 Thunders*
> 
> I think PAF will not BUY FC20/ and even less likely J11/J16 especially if THE IAF MMRCA deal is cancelled



Its all based on gusses, IAF future inventory & same goes to PAF, but let make clear next shopping center for PAF is certnly is CHINA.
& what you guys think china can't get its hands on israeli & EU tech? Even when they knew IAF,s super flanker,s configrations?lol
Come on guys,CHINA is producing them now & you guys just have strted asembling them?
J-16s with more advance tech,specially designed on the weaknesses of MKI of IAF is the right answer, & its quite advanced already as a concept in the air?



Bang Galore said:


> We have peace now. Anyone fighting ? What you are suggesting probably is the resolution of issues between the countries. That is a tougher job. When Pakistan learns to live with the status quo, peace will follow. No other solution.



& the fight goes on! Lol


----------



## batmannow

wanglaokan said:


> I thnk India is overhyper of MKI, j10b will be enough to handle it. China should provide enough quantity of J10b to safeguard Pakistan's sky. Damn why not give 50for free? Why the hell china need so many USD reserves? China shall make it sure Pakistan has enough firepower to protect it from potential India threat. I understand the financial predicament PAF face, hope it will be better off in the future. China is always willing to extend necessary help any time any where. My solution is the biggest counter to MKI is China itself.



What you think freind, if you compare J-16 vs SU30 mki of IAF?
How much & what advancment need tobe done on a J-16 to make it up to the level of MKIs?
Waiting for your detail reply!
Good luck commrade!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Contrarian

orangzaib said:


> I agree. Peace is the only solution to the India-Pakistan situation. Bully has never and will not work. With the intro of nukes, the bully part's out of question. Both need to sit down and start talking their issues out and find mutual resolutions.
> Bullying in fact, might get everyone into a nuclear war causing hundreds of millions of people to suffer. At the end, there won't be anyone saying 'hey, look, I WON'. So make peace between the two and let people prosper in both countries. Friendly ties will increase economic activity that will help millions of people on each side and will help better people's lives!!!



As a matter of fact, the rising disparity between India and Pakistan is forcing Pakistan to agree to more and more on what India wants. Part of the coercive strategy is to keep increasing the difference in the size of the gun and the body/economy to sustain it. Working brilliantly for the last decade. Why should there be peace on equal terms between two highly unequal countries especially when both have committed the same kinds of wrongs.


----------



## RescueRanger

The perfect counter to all this hostility:
One of these:




With a payload of:





What a winning combination.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## 帅的一匹

batmannow said:


> What you think freind, if you compare J-16 vs SU30 mki of IAF?
> How much & what advancment need tobe done on a J-16 to make it up to the level of MKIs?
> Waiting for your detail reply!
> Good luck commrade!


Actually J16 will give pakistan the ability to take down MKI, with mucher lower RCS with intake shape redesign and using new composite material,EOTS,FLIR, AESA radar, with a combat radius of 1500km with fullload of 12 tons, DUO WS10A engine with 132KN each(duo WS15 with 160KN power per after 2015). Actually J-16 has surpaseed existing IAF MKI fleet, except for the TV engine. PLA will handle those MKI with Superior BVR capable J16.
So no need worry my freind, India will keep peace with Pakistan as long as we stick together. Peace!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

Mostly importantly, J16 could be packed with China weapon suite, YJ-62,YJ83, SD10A,PL-9, PL12, PL21 and CM-400AKG. I thought its a overkill for IAF to take.
To batmannow bhaiya, J31 STEALTHY one is a better choice for PAF to go for cause it will provide PAF Asymmetric advantage toward IAF. My sugestion to PAF:
a feet consist of large number of JF17 block 2, and 5 squadrons of J10b with existing F16 block 50, and go for J31 directly. Know why India bring in Rafale so hurry, 2 reason:
1. China knows SU30mk SERIES so deep, no secret of MKI before PLA(especially the case when PLA induct SU35 super flanker)
2. PAF WILL get FC20.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

octopus said:


> A bully calling others bully .......funny .
> 
> About the bhaiya part - 65 , 71 ,99 - nowhere to be seen .
> 
> It should be the dream of every country that your adversary must have a big brother like this.



My concern is India is NOT able take down Pakistan 1Vs1 senario in 65,71,99, would like China join to bring you down? Stop mess up with China, look at the Disdain tone you put in this forum at Pakistani. shame on you, you thin IAF is mighty? PAF is just keeping the minimum force to balance IAF due to your endless bully and arrogance.

keep provocation, see what'll happen.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kurup

wanglaokan said:


> My concern is India is NOT able take on Pakistan 1Vs1 senario, would like China join to bring you down? Stop mess up with China, look at the Disdain tone you put in this forum at Pakistani. shame on you, you thin IAF is mighty? PAF is just keeping the minimum force to balance IAF due to your endless bully and arrogance.



The only ones making empty voices here are you .

You keep on claiming we do this we do that but the reality is you have done nothing.

If your daily dosage of warnings are over , you can move to some meaningful discussions.


----------



## 帅的一匹

octopus said:


> The only ones making empty voices here are you .
> 
> You keep on claiming we do this we do that but the reality is *you have done nothing.*If your daily dosage of warnings are over , you can move to some meaningful discussions.


It's you are trolling here, definitely not me. I'm now sending you one more warning: stay away from Pakistan. The bold part show your ignorant.



Hobo1 said:


> Back then we had American breathing down our neck. And there was always fear of Chinese attack.


Behave yourself, then peace. The more pressure we impose on the border, the less pain Pakistani has to suffer in the real senario. Hope you will understand

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

China will never actively launch a war toward India if you guys peace with Pakistan. Any attempt to break the equlibrium is void.

Lots of Indian ask China to disarm at the border and retrieve from Tibet. How can we do thay? let you guys slaughter Pakistani and sit there doing nothing?
Yesterday a guy live in AP ask China to let go of AP and lease Visa for him to study medicine in China. Why doing so? If he think India is so good a country to go with, just study in India.


----------



## 帅的一匹

To be or not to be , it's always a question.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Back to topic, the best way of countering SU30MKI is China keep pressure on the border. With doing so, IAF can't deploy all its MKI fleet on the west border to deal with PAF. Let's just put it in a simple way to understand, what else IAF fighters could take on PAF's F16 fleet and FC20 before Rafale put in service, the title should be changed to How India is gonna counter PAF'S f16 flleet if MKI is got traped at the border with China.
I mean when you talking something just put it in the real world senario, instead of put some 1 on 1 showoff.


----------



## 帅的一匹

JF17 is actually the huge advantage PAF has toward IAF, i'm here to delivery my appreciation of JF17's importance to PAF. Why so many Indians member are keen to bring in LCA when they got fleet of MKI and Rafale, cause it's cheaper and sanction free.
PAF made it step ahead of IAF to bring in JF17. At the time of LCA induction, JF17 will have becomed a mature battle platform in PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Sedqal

wanglaokan said:


> JF17 is actually the huge advantage PAF has toward IAF, i'm here to delivery my appreciation of JF17's importance to PAF.



Your presence is highly appreciated

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## IndianArmy

wanglaokan said:


> JF17 is actually the huge advantage PAF has toward IAF, i'm here to delivery my appreciation of JF17's importance to PAF. Why so many Indians member are keen to bring in LCA when they got fleet of MKI and Rafale, cause it's cheaper and sanction free.
> PAF made it step ahead of IAF to bring in JF17. At the time of LCA induction, JF17 will have becomed a mature battle platform in PAF.



The Difference between LCA and JF-17 are its customers. IAF was/is not in a hurry to induct a platform when its fleet of Su-30 MKI's are being added up in a much better rate of production than JF-17, while on the other hand PAF is left with no other option of deterrence but to Induct it first and test later as a result of which one went down. LCA is in the HAL/ADA hangar bettered by the very designers and makers of the aircraft until the customer is satisfied that this aircraft serves the nation with pride.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

paul106 said:


> my friend I can learn losts from you. are you marketing professional, CCP's mouth piece or what? *you are selling your product on false claim and making your customer/partner fool.. *if JF17 is so good then why Chinese airforce didn't brought it in large number? you guys also has f7 in your inventory and that need to replace.


The JF17 is a half-half JV project by China and Pakistan, we are equal on this one. JF-17 is a product required by PAF to suit its cost effective and high-performance doctrine. If PAF is as rich as PLAAF, they will choose go for J10b or J11B as well. But the maintenance and operation fees of those duo engine fighers could kill PAF befire it give a strike to IAF, hope you understand that. PLAAF will phase out J7 and replacing it by J10A and B VERSION for your notice. Read more before you post nonsense here. The bold shows your instigation skill sucks! The best one is what suits you the most, remember it as always.
JF17 is ready to export to BD now, what you say? PAF will enjoy the luxrious profit it gains from exporting JF17, and go for whatever they like with these hard cash.


----------



## 帅的一匹

IndianArmy said:


> The Difference between LCA and JF-17 are its customers. IAF was/is not in a hurry to induct a platform when its fleet of Su-30 MKI's are being added up in a much better rate of production than JF-17, while on the other hand PAF is left with no other option of deterrence but to Induct it first and test later as a result of which one went down. LCA is in the HAL/ADA hangar bettered by the very designers and makers of the aircraft until the customer is satisfied that this aircraft serves the nation with pride.


Not that impressive , you are finding excuse for LCA delay. IAF will never satisfy with LCA cause JF17 is keep envolving at its best. PAF has lots of option in PLAAF arsenal, the only problem is money. PAF's doctrine and thought is always ahead of IAF, don't tell me you deny it.


----------



## Developereo

wanglaokan said:


> \Mental Masturbation, what else ya got? So every Chinese is CCP mouth peice, get a life anywhere else will host you better. ihave my freedon of speech in PDF, non of your business.



When people start talking about CCP mouthpiece, 50 cent, freedom of speech, etc., that's an acknowledgement that they don't have any actual counter arguments.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## IndianArmy

wanglaokan said:


> Not that impressive , you are finding excuse for LCA delay. IAF will never satisfy with LCA cause JF17 is keep envolving at its best. PAF has lots of option in PLAAF arsenal, the only problem is money. PAF's doctrine and thought is always ahead of IAF, don't tell me you deny it.



I deny it. I am not finding excuses for LCA's Delay. LCA's delay is not in the delivery of the aircraft, but to meet the changing requirement's of the IAF. I am surprised when you say PAF has better options than IAF. I would like to know what.


----------



## bloo

wanglaokan said:


> Not that impressive , you are finding excuse for LCA delay. IAF will never satisfy with LCA cause JF17 is keep envolving at its best. PAF has lots of option in PLAAF arsenal, the only problem is money. PAF's doctrine and thought is always ahead of IAF, don't tell me you deny it.



The excuse albeit present, is true, even though it is an excuse it doesn't change the fact that it is true.
The continuous change in IAF's requirement literally every year and the roadblocks till 2000 will have to be taken into account if LCA's development and integration is considered.
The sanctions on India were never lifted since 1986 or so and it became worse after the nuclear tests the LCA project was withheld, all the works were not allowed back in the country and the Indian scientists were told to return.
AS per V. K. Saraswat the real work started only in 2005.



wanglaokan said:


> [/B]
> You play a balance game between USA and Russia, China fully support Pakistan without any strings. See? that's the difference. Your choice is sanction inclined any time if you play mischeif with Uncle Sam, while Pakistan is sanction free to any weapon in PLA's arsenal.
> People shall not throw stones in glass house.



Well that depends, we know China can do much more.
So Chinese products in Pak arsenal are as much un-guaranteed as American products in Indian arsenal.
The difference is that we are slowly cleanng up Uncle Sam's mess so the balance can tilt anywhere.


----------



## k&#7779;am&#257;

Looks like wanglaokan have earned a killing for himself !! Today he can have at-least two meals, good luck mate u just made into club known as "Middle class" in India !!! 

@ontopic: with current inventory of both IAF and PAF there is nothing qualitatively or quantitatively challenging a hi-lo combination of SU-30MKI and Bisons. If u take future in account, PAK thinks India will stop at SU-30 and waste its money on 100yr old failed jet Tejas (Which as a pristine record of being "Crash-less" unlike JF17) and China will copy 9th generation EU/US planes to provide them with free J90s.


----------



## paul106

wanglaokan said:


> The JF17 is a half-half JV project by China and Pakistan, we are equal on this one. JF-17 is a product required by PAF to suit its cost effective and high-performance doctrine. If PAF is as rich as PLAAF, they will choose go for J10b or J11B as well. But the maintenance and operation fees of those duo engine fighers could kill PAF befire it give a strike to IAF, hope you understand that. PLAAF will phase out J7 and replacing it by J10A and B VERSION for your notice. Read more before you post nonsense here. The bold shows your instigation skill sucks! The best one is what suits you the most, remember it as always.
> JF17 is ready to export to BD now, what you say? PAF will enjoy the luxrious profit it gains from exporting JF17, and go for whatever they like with these hard cash.



1. read my post gain i have written customer/partner. customer in the seance your half work/product. 
2. agree pak is not rich as china. but as per my knowledge pak is taking JF17 on loan, not on hard cash. 
3. true. that means JF17 is not suite to China. even as point defense role. so JF17 is sub-standard. J11b and J10 is par on expectation.

mate i am not here to argue. as i am neither interested in defense nor defense personal. i am instructor/tutor for business management. I visit this page forum because i want to understand the debating ability of south asian and tolerance as it will be useful in my research and teaching. generally i dont post, I just observe and do my research. but from your post i liked to play with you so i did. mate take my free advise you need to improve lot in your interpersonal skills. 

on this forum i have encountered your posts are some of the most inefficients and i clearly judge your ability of debate. 

best of luck for your future. 

I rest my case. and thanks for being one of the candidate.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

IndianArmy said:


> So you mean to say that Pakistan cannot defend all by itself? India is a sovereign nation, It has the right to buy or sell arms to any country as per International norms. Friendship is a requirement but not an exchange to your integrity.
> 
> Similarly Large number of funds and weaponry are gifted and sold by the United States to Pakistan, does that make Pakistan less friendly to you. Why does the attitude change when Pakistan is replaced with India?


I'm not say anything fuzz about India buying weapons from USA, it's your right and choice.


----------



## IndianArmy

wanglaokan said:


> I'm not say anything fuzz about India buying weapons from USA, it's your right and choice.




You made it look as though we did a crime, anyways thanks for the debate.


----------



## 帅的一匹

paul106 said:


> 1. read my post gain i have written customer/partner. customer in the seance your half work/product.
> 2. agree pak is not rich as china. but as per my knowledge pak is taking JF17 on loan, not on hard cash.
> 3. true. that means JF17 is not suite to China. even as point defense role. so JF17 is sub-standard. J11b and J10 is par on expectation.
> 
> mate i am not here to argue. as i am neither interested in defense nor defense personal. i am instructor/tutor for business management. I visit this page forum because i want to understand the *debating ability of south asian *and tolerance as it will be useful in my research and teaching. generally i dont post, I just observe and do my research. but from your post i liked to play with you so i did. mate take my free advise you need to* improve lot in your interpersonal skills*.
> 
> on this forum i have encountered your posts are some of the most inefficients and i clearly judge your ability of debate.
> 
> best of luck for your future.
> 
> I rest my case. and thanks for being one of the candidate.


Since when China is a south Asian country? better reinforce your geo knowledge before doing any research here.
Oh, you are not convincing me before you left here. Try it agian some other time. Good luck to you as well as a tutor for business management.



Amolthebest said:


> You can not even spell freedom right. Its symbol of status of freedom of speech in China


My typo leads to a chance of your trolling, sorry man.


----------



## bloo

The only option for PAF is J-20, that is IF it ever is purchased.
Coz the Su-30MKI will evolve further(Super-30 program) so a short term deterrence for the MKI is literally impossible for PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hobo1

wanglaokan said:


> JF17 is actually the huge advantage PAF has toward IAF, i'm here to delivery my appreciation of JF17's importance to PAF. Why so many Indians member are keen to bring in LCA when they got fleet of MKI and Rafale, cause it's cheaper and sanction free.
> PAF made it step ahead of IAF to bring in JF17. At the time of LCA induction, JF17 will have becomed a mature battle platform in PAF.



PAF hopes JF17 be as good as Mig29s whose much improved version India Mig35 India didn't even bothers at during MRCA. For IAF JF17 is nothing ,our current inventory of Mig29s and M2k is enough for them.
IAF is worried with JF17 because Pakistan has always indulged in militry misadventures like Kargil and war of 65 when ever the felt a bit confident.

The JF-17 is an outdated design LCA is much better and mature platform. PAF cannot afford any decent 4th gen plane thatswhy they are hang Ho about a plane which they are virtually getting for free.


----------



## ice_man

Hobo1 said:


> PAF hopes JF17 be as good as Mig29s whose much improved version India Mig35 India didn't even bothers at during MRCA. For IAF JF17 is nothing ,our current inventory of Mig29s and M2k is enough for them.
> IAF is worried with JF17 because Pakistan has always indulged in militry misadventures like Kargil and war of 65 when ever the felt a bit confident.
> 
> The JF-17 is an outdated design LCA is much better and mature platform. PAF cannot afford any decent 4th gen plane thatswhy they are hang Ho about a plane which they are virtually getting for free.



thanks for sharing your bharat raaakshaak info with us!  

JF-17 is truly a game changer in the india pak scenario! it gives PAF a true BVR paltform for air defence needs! this was not the case till the introduction of JF-17. Mirages,F7s were no match for the IAF however, with the introduction of JF-17 the game has changed considerably.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Contrarian said:


> As a matter of fact, the rising disparity between India and Pakistan is forcing Pakistan to agree to more and more on what India wants. Part of the coercive strategy is to keep increasing the difference in the size of the gun and the body/economy to sustain it. Working brilliantly for the last decade. Why should there be peace on equal terms between two highly unequal countries especially when both have committed the same kinds of wrongs.



If people with this mentality exist in the Indian army's top leadership. Then good luck to the South Asia. You are SADLY mistaken if you think that Pakistan is bowing down to your pressure or is accepting you as a big brother. If you talk to them being someone from the US government, the ONLY enemy they think they have...is India. So, let me assure you, try not to run with your crazy logic. I am sure you'll destroy Pakistan but be ready to go back to pre 1950's India too. I don't understand why you guys are so stupid* at times. Is this all a joke for you guys filled with fantasy Indian supremacy?? There are HUNDREDS of NUKES involved in this. There is no 'Winner' here. The whole talk about disparity between conventional arms, etc, doesn't apply here. I don't think anyone thinks there will be a next 'conventional' war. It'll just be a mother of all wars and it'll kill hundreds of millions of people. So get off the supremacy horse and look around you and your geography. Try to work things out with peace. Not with this attitude of yours reflected in your post above. That'll hurt many innocent poor people who don't deserve another war!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Gentelman

Hobo1 said:


> PAF hopes JF17 be as good as Mig29s whose much improved version India Mig35 India didn't even bothers at during MRCA. For IAF JF17 is nothing ,our current inventory of Mig29s and M2k is enough for them.
> IAF is worried with JF17 because Pakistan has always indulged in militry misadventures like Kargil and war of 65 when ever the felt a bit confident.
> 
> The JF-17 is an outdated design LCA is much better and mature platform. PAF cannot afford any decent 4th gen plane thatswhy they are hang Ho about a plane which they are virtually getting for free.



hahaha bloody rasca** always try to troll...
in every PAF,PA and PN post.....
and chk out their senve...they always compare a plane under development with a plane in service....
they will tell stories to their kids...
JF-17 destroyds IAF coz LCA a mature platform was umder development...lolzzzzz..
step aside bro...
if it is soo outdated then why it was a big concern to russia fot its sale of MIG series??


----------



## SQ8

paul106 said:


> 1. read my post gain i have written customer/partner. customer in the seance your half work/product.
> 2. agree pak is not rich as china. but as per my knowledge pak is taking JF17 on loan, not on hard cash.
> 3. true. that means JF17 is not suite to China. even as point defense role. so JF17 is sub-standard. J11b and J10 is par on expectation.
> 
> mate i am not here to argue. as i am neither interested in defense nor defense personal*. i am instructor/tutor for business management*. I visit this page forum because i want to understand the debating ability of south asian and tolerance as it will be useful in my research and teaching. generally i dont post, I just observe and do my research. but from your post i liked to play with you so i did. mate take my free advise you need to improve lot in your interpersonal skills.
> 
> on this forum i have encountered your posts are some of the most inefficients and i clearly judge your ability of debate.
> 
> best of luck for your future.
> 
> I rest my case. and thanks for being one of the candidate.



Then you are making a flawed assumption based on your own field.
Within Business management there is also something known as managerial decisions and for that you try to maximize the contribution you are able to receive within your budget.
So if Product A and B are better suited for your immediate needs would you still go for product C when you can afford product A and B and their overall contribution to your capabilities will be greater than including product C within that budget?
The J-10 serves as a better replacement for the F-7 than the JF-17 since the Chinese have the budget for it.
The same way the F-16 served as a better candidate for airforces as compared to the F-20 tigershark.
The US has not bought the block-60 variant of the F-16.. does that mean that the USAF considers it inferior or that it is hedging its bets on the F-35? 
Different "organizations" ..different environments...different needs.. different budgets...different decisions.

As for your last part, if you are here for the discussion.. you arent exactly setting a good example for yourself either.
If this is the level of BM being taught in NZ.. than god help the kiwis.



bloo said:


> The only option for PAF is J-20, that is IF it ever is purchased.
> Coz the Su-30MKI will evolve further(Super-30 program) so a short term deterrence for the MKI is literally impossible for PAF.





Hobo1 said:


> PAF hopes JF17 be as good as Mig29s whose much improved version India Mig35 India didn't even bothers at during MRCA. For IAF JF17 is nothing ,our current inventory of Mig29s and M2k is enough for them.
> IAF is worried with JF17 because Pakistan has always indulged in militry misadventures like Kargil and war of 65 when ever the felt a bit confident.
> 
> The JF-17 is an outdated design LCA is much better and mature platform. PAF cannot afford any decent 4th gen plane thatswhy they are hang Ho about a plane which they are virtually getting for free.



Posts like these dont deserve a reply. And in this case I am inclined to think that there is little more than jingoism in them.
please refrain from posting in this thread while it is being cleaned up from the likes of Jingos from both sides.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## batmannow

wanglaokan dear friend!

Actually J16 will give pakistan the ability to take down MKI, with mucher lower RCS with intake shape redesign and using new composite material,EOTS,FLIR, AESA radar, with a combat radius of 1500km with fullload of 12 tons, DUO WS10A engine with 132KN each(duo WS15 with 160KN power per after 2015). Actually J-16 has surpaseed existing IAF MKI fleet, except for the TV engine. PLA will handle those MKI with Superior BVR capable J16.
Mostly importantly, J16 could be packed with China weapon suite, YJ-62,YJ83, SD10A,PL-9, PL12, PL21 and CM-400AKG. I thought its a overkill for IAF to take.
To batmannow bhaiya, J31 STEALTHY one is a better choice for PAF to go for cause it will provide PAF Asymmetric advantage toward IAF. My sugestion to PAF:
a feet consist of large number of JF17 block 2, and 5 squadrons of J10b with existing F16 block 50, and go for J31 directly. Know why India bring in Rafale so hurry, 2 reason:
1. China knows SU30mk SERIES so deep, no secret of MKI before PLA(especially the case when PLA induct SU35 super flanker)
2. PAF WILL get FC20.

thanks for the post!


so what i assume is J-16s are the most gettable option PAF has in its , closed fists technicly, J-31 s are future in case IAF, getting rafeals?


----------



## Storm Force

SO IT SEEMS WE HAVE THE ANSWERS FROM BATMANNOW & HIS FRIEND wanglaokan....

J16 a brand new Flanker with reduced RCS and superior weapons & radars will be the answer to IAF SU30MKI 

LETS JUST hope that the IAF and indeed the RUSSIANS do not start some ambitious programme to upgrade their existinf fleet of 157 SU30MKI delivvered already with a AESA radar. reduced RCS programme through ram coating & new EW suites and a new rangle of RAMJET BVR missles like NOVATOR... 

oh hang on " somebody just showed me this 

Armed with 5G jet features, Super Sukhoi on the way... | Russia & India Report

oh my GOD the damn indians & russians have started to induct fifth gen features to those already delivered 157 su30mki 

AND WE ARE STIL TALKING ABOUT J16 as been the correct answer to MKI

Sorry to be sarcastic

in warefare NOTHING STANDS STILL 

su30mki is the backbone of the IAF already

THEY WILL ADD T50/FGFA technology to this jet at which point there will be little to choose between the 

SUPER SUKHOI SU30MKI & SU35B OR THE F15 SILENT EAGLE & F18 SUPERHORNETS 

Armed with 5G jet features, Super Sukhoi on the way... | Russia & India Report

a serious question HAVE THE PAF found the real answer to this current threat of SU30MKI & will they get the answer to the SUPER SUKHOI SU30MKI which is only 12-24 months away ... 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...grade-80-su-30mkis-super-sukhoi-standard.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## batmannow

Storm Force said:


> SO IT SEEMS WE HAVE THE ANSWERS FROM BATMANNOW & HIS FRIEND wanglaokan....
> 
> J16 a brand new Flanker with reduced RCS and superior weapons & radars will be the answer to IAF SU30MKI
> 
> LETS JUST hope that the IAF and indeed the RUSSIANS do not start some ambitious programme to upgrade their existinf fleet of 157 SU30MKI delivvered already with a AESA radar. reduced RCS programme through ram coating & new EW suites and a new rangle of RAMJET BVR missles like NOVATOR...
> 
> oh hang on " somebody just showed me this
> 
> Armed with 5G jet features, Super Sukhoi on the way... | Russia & India Report
> 
> oh my GOD the damn indians & russians have started to induct fifth gen features to those already delivered 157 su30mki
> 
> AND WE ARE STIL TALKING ABOUT J16 as been the correct answer to MKI
> 
> Sorry to be sarcastic
> 
> in warefare NOTHING STANDS STILL
> 
> su30mki is the backbone of the IAF already
> 
> THEY WILL ADD T50/FGFA technology to this jet at which point there will be little to choose between the
> 
> SUPER SUKHOI SU30MKI & SU35B OR THE F15 SILENT EAGLE & F18 SUPERHORNETS
> 
> Armed with 5G jet features, Super Sukhoi on the way... | Russia & India Report
> 
> a serious question HAVE THE PAF found the real answer to this current threat of SU30MKI & will they get the answer to the SUPER SUKHOI SU30MKI which is only 12-24 months away ...
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...grade-80-su-30mkis-super-sukhoi-standard.html


*Armed with 5G jet features, Super Sukhoi on the way...
September 12, 2011 Sergei Ptichkin*

*SUPER SUKHOI SU30MKI which is only 12-24 months away ... 
*
that was September 12, 2011, & this is december 16th 2012? so where it is?lol
is it also from some one said or you can show us delivery notice?
* ADD T50/FGFA technology to this jet *
why thn to spend huge funds on T50/FGFA?
any way we got the answer, J-16 now even you put a rapptor,s A..S into it, still it wiould be called a SU-30MKIiiiiiiiiiiiii , its up to you how many of iiis you can put in it?lol


----------



## Storm Force

BATMANN

The message is clear for everyone.

THE SU30MKI will celebrate a FULL DECADE of service next year.. in 2013.

The programme has been a MASSIVE SUCCESS with 157 jets in service as we speak and growing year in year out.

AS YOU CAN SEE they have already started the MLU pgramme to reduce RCS add AESA radars and new EW SUITES and new ramjet missles. THIS WILL COST OVER $2 BILLION over the next 5 years on all 270 jets. 

TO DATE PAF is stil looking at suitable answers to the original SU30MKI FROM 2003 AND THE INDIANS ARE ENTERING into the SUPER SU30MKI ...

i ask again is the JF17 & small fleet of F16s enough ????????/


----------



## Contrarian

orangzaib said:


> If people with this mentality exist in the Indian army's top leadership. Then good luck to the South Asia. You are SADLY mistaken if you think that Pakistan is bowing down to your pressure or is accepting you as a big brother. If you talk to them being someone from the US government, the ONLY enemy they think they have...is India. So, let me assure you, try not to run with your crazy logic. I am sure you'll destroy Pakistan but be ready to go back to pre 1950's India too. I don't understand why you guys are so stupid* at times. Is this all a joke for you guys filled with fantasy Indian supremacy?? There are HUNDREDS of NUKES involved in this. There is no 'Winner' here. The whole talk about disparity between conventional arms, etc, doesn't apply here. I don't think anyone thinks there will be a next 'conventional' war. It'll just be a mother of all wars and it'll kill hundreds of millions of people. So get off the supremacy horse and look around you and your geography. Try to work things out with peace. Not with this attitude of yours reflected in your post above. That'll hurt many innocent poor people who don't deserve another war!!!


Maybe you didn't get my post. I never talked about war. I said there should not be a treaty of peace based on equality between India and Pakistan as they are unequal on every respect. 

India has demanded trade and visa liberalization with Pakistan for decades. Pakistan in turn demanded Kashmir to be solved before any of these things ie trade or visa.
India demanded joint authentication of agpl in siachen as a precondition for Indian withdrawal. Pakistan rejected it for years saying it cannot agree to signing an agpl.

Guess what - Pakistan is going ahead with trade, already signed visa treaty with us, agreed to sign agpl in track 2 in siachen.
All this while agreeing that Kashmir should be kept on the backburner. Exactly what India wanted for decades and exactly what Pakistan army did not want for decades. I see India getting what it wants from Pakistan without compromising. This is what I mean peace treaty not based on idea of equality but a hard acknowledgement of the difference today between India and Pakistan.

And the reason for this is India's economy providing global diplomatic weight and stronger military capability acting as coercive agents.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## batmannow

Storm Force said:


> BATMANN
> 
> The message is clear for everyone.
> 
> THE SU30MKI will celebrate a FULL DECADE of service next year.. in 2013.
> 
> The programme has been a MASSIVE SUCCESS with 157 jets in service as we speak and growing year in year out.
> 
> AS YOU CAN SEE they have already started the MLU pgramme to reduce RCS add AESA radars and new EW SUITES and new ramjet missles. THIS WILL COST OVER $2 BILLION over the next 5 years on all 270 jets.
> 
> TO DATE PAF is stil looking at suitable answers to the original SU30MKI FROM 2003 AND THE INDIANS ARE ENTERING into the SUPER SU30MKI ...
> 
> i ask again is the JF17 & small fleet of F16s enough ????????/



not enough, the truth is!
but why you keep assuming, that PAF will remain in this state?
problem has been solved , if PAF really needs it can go for J-16s next sunday, but there is no immediete threat of a extensive airwar with IAF, PAF is doing its research on different plateforms, which couldbe inducted at right time, to counter SU-30mki or rafeals.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

Batmann

You asked when the first SUPER SUKHOI (UPGRADED MKI WILL ARRIVE) 

The answer in 2014-2015.... 

It will take 5 years to upgrade around 150 flankers 

I dont think ALL 272 SU30MKI will super mki (just half) 

by the way have you seen the upgrade MIG29 

FIRST 3 ARRIVED


----------



## paul106

Oscar said:


> Then you are making a flawed assumption based on your own field.
> Within Business management there is also something known as managerial decisions and for that you try to maximize the contribution you are able to receive within your budget.
> So if Product A and B are better suited for your immediate needs would you still go for product C when you can afford product A and B and their overall contribution to your capabilities will be greater than including product C within that budget?
> The J-10 serves as a better replacement for the F-7 than the JF-17 since the Chinese have the budget for it.
> The same way the F-16 served as a better candidate for airforces as compared to the F-20 tigershark.
> The US has not bought the block-60 variant of the F-16.. does that mean that the USAF considers it inferior or that it is hedging its bets on the F-35?
> Different "organizations" ..different environments...different needs.. different budgets...different decisions.
> 
> As for your last part, if you are here for the discussion.. you arent exactly setting a good example for yourself either.
> If this is the level of BM being taught in NZ.. than god help the kiwis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posts like these dont deserve a reply. And in this case I am inclined to think that there is little more than jingoism in them.
> please refrain from posting in this thread while it is being cleaned up from the likes of Jingos from both sides.



I perfectly understand your concern, please read my post again, I never told that JF17 is not suitable for PAF, at current situation JF17 is perfect for PAF. But my question is why it is not suited for China? when you make partnership particularly in defense, you just dont pour money in that you put your technical and well guarded secrete in that. so if China is saying that we made partnership with pak just of basis of friendship i dont buy it. they may be did experiment at half of the cost, as partner pakistan may share some development & manufacturing cost.

Ho ho, you know that F16 is one of the mainstay so far in US air wings? Yes USAF dont have Block 60+ and thay stoped at 52 or 52+ and see why because they are moving to more advance jet. block 60+ is for the business. so the reason of developing block 60/60+ is earn money. by the way F16 is not run by US govt own company... while JF17 manufacture/partner is Chinese govt own company. As i told you my friend there are motive of being partner to earn profit (any kind, be it technical, financial ).

so as i said the current specification of jf17 is suitable for PAF (I am dont know whats the specification of JF17), but its not suitable for china, so that means china was partner in this project to gain technical research, and just to check whats ability of their technis. so far china did not buy it that means china is not satisfied with JF17, but same time current JF17 is suitable for paf. 

different institute different, products and standards no buddy deny that. but when you are being partner and fooling your other partner that yes its matter of concern. either China is not satisfied with JF17 and its sub-standard or China made partnership with pak to earn money/save money the project is not just friendship. 
.
dont worry about Kiwi standard and education, i am sure its far better and up to the world standard.


----------



## paul106

wanglaokan said:


> Since when China is a south Asian country? better reinforce your geo knowledge before doing any research here.
> Oh, you are not convincing me before you left here. Try it agian some other time. Good luck to you as well as a tutor for business management.
> 
> 
> My typo leads to a chance of your trolling, sorry man.



my friend, you are not south asian but you are currently posting on south asian. as i said i dont generally interrupt in discussion and only observe. so i dont need to reainforce3 my geo knowledge but you need to learn the professional/polite debate. not for me not for any one else but for you. you have potential just need to change your attitude. so i inform. 

no hard feelings. good luck.


----------



## SQ8

paul106 said:


> I perfectly understand your concern, please read my post again, I never told that JF17 is not suitable for PAF, at current situation JF17 is perfect for PAF. But my question is why it is not suited for China? when you make partnership particularly in defense, you just dont pour money in that you put your technical and well guarded secrete in that. so if China is saying that we made partnership with pak just of basis of friendship i dont buy it. they may be did experiment at half of the cost, as partner pakistan may share some development & manufacturing cost.
> 
> Ho ho, you know that F16 is one of the mainstay so far in US air wings? Yes USAF dont have Block 60+ and thay stoped at 52 or 52+ and see why because they are moving to more advance jet. block 60+ is for the business. so the reason of developing block 60/60+ is earn money. by the way F16 is not run by US govt own company... while JF17 manufacture/partner is Chinese govt own company. As i told you my friend there are motive of being partner to earn profit (any kind, be it technical, financial ).
> 
> so as i said the current specification of jf17 is suitable for PAF (I am dont know whats the specification of JF17), but its not suitable for china, so that means china was partner in this project to gain technical research, and just to check whats ability of their technis. so far china did not buy it that means china is not satisfied with JF17, but same time current JF17 is suitable for paf.
> 
> different institute different, products and standards *no buddy* deny that. but when you are being partner and fooling your other partner that yes its matter of concern. either China is not satisfied with JF17 and its sub-standard or China made partnership with pak to earn money/save money the project is not just friendship.
> .
> dont worry about Kiwi standard and education, i am sure its far better and up to the world standard.



China made the partnership for the basis of product representation. The PAF is accepted the world over for its professionalism and hence its stamp on Chinese manufactured or co-developed goods provides a willing PR boost for China.
Moreover, the transaction between Pakistan and China is transactional.Including giving China access and first preference to trade corridors, minerals.. 
China needs a bullwark to tie India down to the west.. or did at least.. and that is where the assistance of soft loans and grants comes in from. Hence the idea for the partnership is much more than friendship based on the Chinese just liking us.

Also,not to nitpick and maybe its an auto correct.. but its spelled nobody and not nobuddy.


----------



## paul106

Oscar said:


> China made the partnership for the basis of product representation. The PAF is accepted the world over for its professionalism and hence its stamp on Chinese manufactured or co-developed goods provides a willing PR boost for China.
> Moreover, the transaction between Pakistan and China is transactional.Including giving China access and first preference to trade corridors, minerals..
> China needs a bullwark to tie India down to the west.. or did at least.. and that is where the assistance of soft loans and grants comes in from. Hence the idea for the partnership is much more than friendship based on the Chinese just liking us.
> 
> Also,not to nitpick and maybe its an auto correct.. but its spelled nobody and not nobuddy.



yes thats what i am talking about what you said is may be 40% part. but the other things which even pakistan is not aware are in the mind of china. you said was Geo-strategy. but with this military and technological strategy are also associated. 

one more thing from you post. they want, india is engage on one side of its border unsecured. but for that they need to give pakistan top notch fighter. the option are j10/j11/and the stealth (sorry i dont recall name, as i am not associated with defense.) But at current stage pakistan can not afford that jet. so the china got strategic depth but the didnt gave its best tech jets to pakistan.


----------



## SQ8

paul106 said:


> yes thats what i am talking about what you said is may be 40% part. but the other things which even pakistan is not aware are in the mind of china. you said was Geo-strategy. but with this military and technological strategy are also associated.
> 
> one more thing from you post. they want, india is engage on one side of its border unsecured. but for that they need to give pakistan top notch fighter. the option are j10/j11/and the stealth (sorry i dont recall name, as i am not associated with defense.) *But at current stage pakistan can not afford that jet. so the china got strategic depth but the didnt gave its best tech jets to pakistan.*



Not accurate either.. the Chinese have offered the J-10B.. and the J-11 to Pakistan.
The J-31 for eg is also on offer. ..but with the current economic situation the PAF is already at the edge of its budget and hence gets to choose carefully what it gets.

China has unequivocally offered to give PAF all it wants.. and all the loans that PAF wants to buy them.. after all for China it is a win-win situation. Pay the soft grants to your own economy to fund an industry. However, there is something called goodwill that goes into a relationship and the PAF does not want to strain that beyond acceptable levels.
It does not wish another US-Pakistan relationship where the US people are demanding accountability for their money going to Pakistan in the name of WoT(when the true picture is not being represented).

So its the PAF that is limiting its borrowings and managing a budget.. not the Chinese who are more than happy to fund all the J-11's and J-31's the PAF wants.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

Storm Force said:


> Batmann
> 
> You asked when the first SUPER SUKHOI (UPGRADED MKI WILL ARRIVE)
> 
> The answer in 2014-2015....
> 
> It will take 5 years to upgrade around 150 flankers
> 
> I dont think ALL 272 SU30MKI will super mki (just half)
> 
> by the way have you seen the upgrade MIG29
> 
> FIRST 3 ARRIVED



Man ur capitals are funny.U keep doing it in every post lol.


----------



## paul106

Oscar said:


> Not accurate either.. the Chinese have offered the J-10B.. and the J-11 to Pakistan.
> The J-31 for eg is also on offer. ..but with the current economic situation the PAF is already at the edge of its budget and hence gets to choose carefully what it gets.
> 
> China has unequivocally offered to give PAF all it wants.. and all the loans that PAF wants to buy them.. after all for China it is a win-win situation. Pay the soft grants to your own economy to fund an industry. However, there is something called goodwill that goes into a relationship and the PAF does not want to strain that beyond acceptable levels.
> It does not wish another US-Pakistan relationship where the US people are demanding accountability for their money going to Pakistan in the name of WoT(when the true picture is not being represented).
> 
> So its the PAF that is limiting its borrowings and managing a budget.. not the Chinese who are more than happy to fund all the J-11's and J-31's the PAF wants.



At current situation, in my belief pakistan should go to J series if they have options. but i am sure your govt know better. 
I should ask for the source of news (Chinese offer) but i will not. as i am not interested in that. I just want to talk to resonably polite person, which you are. 

thanks for nice debate, i highly appreciate your scene of debate, intellectual skills.

enjoy rest of the day.


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Not accurate either.. the Chinese have offered the J-10B.. and the J-11 to Pakistan.
> The J-31 for eg is also on offer. ..but with the current economic situation the PAF is already at the edge of its budget and hence gets to choose carefully what it gets.
> 
> China has unequivocally offered to give PAF all it wants.. and all the loans that PAF wants to buy them.. after all for China it is a win-win situation. Pay the soft grants to your own economy to fund an industry. However, there is something called goodwill that goes into a relationship and the PAF does not want to strain that beyond acceptable levels.
> It does not wish another US-Pakistan relationship where the US people are demanding accountability for their money going to Pakistan in the name of WoT(when the true picture is not being represented).
> 
> So its the PAF that is limiting its borrowings and managing a budget.. not the Chinese who are more than happy to fund all the J-11's and J-31's the PAF wants.




I think PAF will get J-31 or J-10 anyway. It's just waiting for the MMRCA of India to materialize. J-31 will guarantee a parity in the stealth aircraft class in the region. J-10B offers PAF it's customizations as required to counter the MMRCA. So i think it is right that we should wait a couple more years. See where the political leadership takes us, where the economy is heading and how the foreign relations fare up.

Indian members who come here bashing have no clue to what they are talking about.


----------



## MastanKhan

paul106 said:


> 1. read my post gain i have written customer/partner. customer in the seance your half work/product.
> 2. agree pak is not rich as china. but as per my knowledge pak is taking JF17 on loan, not on hard cash.
> 3. true. that means JF17 is not suite to China. even as point defense role. so JF17 is sub-standard. J11b and J10 is par on expectation.
> 
> mate i am not here to argue. as i am neither interested in defense nor defense personal. i am instructor/tutor for business management. I visit this page forum because i want to understand the debating ability of south asian and tolerance as it will be useful in my research and teaching. generally i dont post, I just observe and do my research. but from your post i liked to play with you so i did. mate take my free advise you need to improve lot in your interpersonal skills.
> 
> on this forum i have encountered your posts are some of the most inefficients and i clearly judge your ability of debate.
> 
> best of luck for your future.
> 
> I rest my case. and thanks for being one of the candidate.




Senor,

Como estas ---- where is the deceit in your post---. If you or the readers missed it---it is in your diction---it is very poor in relation to what you state to be your education and ethnic background.

Then there is your poor attempt to be so pure and above every body by declaring who you want to discusss with---.

PAF does not think that the JF 17 is any better than any indian air craft---but it does know that in the end---if it can deploy and launch missiles to reach the opponent and touch them---then the job is considered done---. That is the first goal---.

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## niaz

The discussion comparing SU30 MK1 & JF17 has been going on for a very long time and there is hardly any parameter that has not been analysed to the point of boredom. My Indian friends must understand that PAF never claimed nor did the Chinese that JF17 was equal to SU30. The fact that PLAAF has bought additional Su30 despite being the designer and producer of JF-17 is proof enough.

There are limitations on what Pakistan can afford; additionally there are restrictions on what Pakistan can buy even if it she could afford to pay. It is also a fact that Indian Defence expenditure is more than total country budget of Pakistan! Thus PAF is not in a position to match IAF in men and material.

Pakistan however needs a credible conventional deterrent. JF-17 costs about half of what SU-30 would cost if Russians agreed to sell it to us and except for the power plant, it is not prone to sanctions. JF17 is the best option available to Pakistan as work horse. Pakistan is buying limited numbers of J10 to counter IAF's qualitative edge.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## bloo

Oscar said:


> Posts like these dont deserve a reply. And in this case I am inclined to think that there is little more than jingoism in them.
> please refrain from posting in this thread while it is being cleaned up from the likes of Jingos from both sides.




I don't see what part of my post was "jingoism".
You are discussing about countering a Su-30MKI so I really don't think any part of what I said was unrelated.
Or is it that people will accept everything as long as it is the way they want it to be.





batmannow said:


> *Armed with 5G jet features, Super Sukhoi on the way...
> September 12, 2011 Sergei Ptichkin*
> 
> *SUPER SUKHOI SU30MKI which is only 12-24 months away ...
> *
> that was September 12, 2011, & this is december 16th 2012? so where it is?lol
> is it also from some one said or you can show us delivery notice?
> * ADD T50/FGFA technology to this jet *
> why thn to spend huge funds on T50/FGFA?
> any way we got the answer, J-16 now even you put a rapptor,s A..S into it, still it wiould be called a SU-30MKIiiiiiiiiiiiii , its up to you how many of iiis you can put in it?lol




Regardless of your condescension the "Super 30" program will happen and it may not be 5G but PAF will still find it hard to counter.
 @Storm Force No it is not 12-24 months away, the deliveries will not start before 2016.


----------



## SQ8

bloo said:


> I don't see what part of my post was "jingoism".
> You are discussing about countering a Su-30MKI so I really don't think any part of what I said was unrelated.
> *Or is it that people will accept everything as long as it is the way they want it to be.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of your condescension the "Super 30" program will happen and it may not be 5G but PAF will still find it hard to counter.
> 
> @Storm Force No it is not 12-24 months away, the deliveries will not start before 2016.



Think about what you said right there and it suits you entirely.
As long as your MKI Bachan wins.. you are happy. 
And have refused to accept any argument that gives the possibility of the contrary at any stage.
Juvenile to say the least.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## danger007

oscar sir, this thread should be closed. I dön't find any useful arguments. And also take care of 16 bsf ...thread. too much $hit going on..


----------



## bloo

Oscar said:


> Think about what you said right there and it suits you entirely.
> As long as your MKI Bachan wins.. you are happy.
> And have refused to accept any argument that gives the possibility of the contrary at any stage.
> Juvenile to say the least.



U haven't exactly contradicted me that I will have to deny something.
U are prematurely evaluating the fact that I won't accept what ever u have to say.
Of course I am happy if my stuff wins, isn't that the whole purpose of the thread?
Do contradict me, I have an open mind enough to respect anyone's opinion.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

bloo said:


> I have an open mind enough to respect anyone's opinion.



lets see if you can prove it

see if you can counter the points raised by the OP but be original dont copy or quote others
he is still adamant that what he articulated is true despite getting hostile reaction from the patriots.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Developereo said:


> When people start talking about CCP mouthpiece, 50 cent, freedom of speech, etc., that's an acknowledgement that they don't have any actual counter arguments.



the other issue is the red mist
the red mist that clogs the vision whenever MKI Bachan is challenged.
the thread was never about the capabilities of JF-17 but about the known weaknesses of MKI Bachan as discussed by the American pilots and on that bases OP hypothesised a possible scenario where PAF will counter the mighty Bachan.

like Gambit said in his post that you always force the enemy to fight on your terms and where you have the advantage, and thats what PAF will do I understand its a huge rock to digest but thats how any airforce will train that is to face the Sukhoi. 

Pakistan front line fighters are F-16 block 52 & they might use the same tactics that were used by USAF pilots to "drill" the MKI. or they might lure it to a network of SAM sites.

Alas A hypothetical scenario was taken to heart by the fanboys and zealots.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## SQ8

bloo said:


> U haven't exactly contradicted me that I will have to deny something.
> U are prematurely evaluating the fact that I won't accept what ever u have to say.
> Of course I am happy if my stuff wins, isn't that the whole purpose of the thread?
> Do contradict me, I have an open mind enough to respect anyone's opinion.



Ok, I think the TVC on the MKI is useless in combat. There is no pilot other than those in Russia who will verify to the contrary. 
A USAF colonel.. not a captain.. not a lt.. a colonel..with a minimum.. of 22 years flying and fighting jets.. whose testimony ignited a fire like no other on youtube.. has laid it out bare.
So what, other than pseudo intellectuals like Kopp.. or otherwise.. can you find as evidence to the contrary.



Irfan Baloch said:


> Alas A hypothetical scenario was taken to heart by the fanboys and zealots.



People should be reminded on reporting these classes so they may be thrown out.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## hurt

paul106 said:


> different institute different, products and standards no buddy deny that. but when you are being partner and fooling your other partner that yes its matter of concern. either China is not satisfied with JF17 and its sub-standard or China made partnership with pak to earn money/save money the project is not just friendship.
> .
> dont worry about Kiwi standard and education, i am sure its far better and up to the world standard.



China china did not buy it because we had j-10 , J-11 and JH-7,Su-30mkk/mkk2 in the same time, there is no Jf-17 place and it is too small.

Until JF-17 PJ Start, J-10 was not Approved by PLAAF and we only can buy Su-27sk.
When JF-17 In service, we can build J-10 and J-11A.
By the way PLAAF like Heavy fighter more than light,its the one reason of PLAAF not approved J-10 pj at first

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notorious_eagle

Irfan Baloch said:


> lets see if you can prove it
> 
> see if you can counter the points raised by the OP but be original dont copy or quote others
> he is still adamant that what he articulated is true despite getting hostile reaction from the patriots.



I agree. Lets see the lad put his actions where his mouth is. 

What a lot of these fanboys don't realize is, that aerial warfare is not conducted 1 vs 1. If i am sending the JF17 out to greet the MKI Bachan 1 on 1, than it is likely that the MKI Bachan will come out on top. But if i am sending a complete support party of JF17's mixed up with other aircrafts to carry out interceptions backed up by PAF's force multiplier infrastructure, the probability of JF17 surviving the engagement shoots up.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

notorious_eagle said:


> I agree. Lets see the lad put his actions where his mouth is.
> 
> What a lot of these fanboys don't realize is, that aerial warfare is not conducted 1 vs 1. If i am sending the JF17 out to greet the MKI Bachan 1 on 1, than it is likely that the MKI Bachan will come out on top. But if i am sending a complete support party of JF17's mixed up with other aircrafts to carry out interceptions backed up by PAF's force multiplier infrastructure, the probability of JF17 surviving the engagement shoots up.



Although as the testimony of a colonel who was part of the team that was to bring the MKI squadron up to standards on red flag training has testified and was targeted and his career attacked by these "extremists" has even pointed out how in 1vs1 the MKI ends up on the losing end against an aircraft carrying 600 gal fuel tanks on its wings.

So its not exactly invincible there either. Add to that the PAF operates as a force and not as gung ho singular combatants.. and the idea becomes increasingly clear about how much of the hype surrounding the MKI is true. 
The IAF knows that, they are a professional force and will utilize their system the best .. and will cover up its weaknesses with clever tactics.. But their "more IAF than IAF" fanboys cant digest that.
India look anything less than perfect?? Nooo ....

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## majesticpankaj

notorious_eagle said:


> I agree. Lets see the lad put his actions where his mouth is.
> 
> What a lot of these fanboys don't realize is, that aerial warfare is not conducted 1 vs 1. If i am sending the JF17 out to greet the MKI Bachan 1 on 1, than it is likely that the MKI Bachan will come out on top. But if i am sending a complete support party of JF17's mixed up with other aircrafts to carry out interceptions backed up by PAF's force multiplier infrastructure, the probability of JF17 surviving the engagement shoots up.



 by argument India has higher numbers of jets along with much better resources....pakistan is a small country with lesser number of bases as compared to India... 

Have u ever thought why Israel being so small able to defend itself against the bigger adversaries..??

do u know why PAF didn't turn up during karachi's attack in 1971 and in longewala ?


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> by argument India has higher numbers of jets along with much better resources....pakistan is a small country with lesser number of bases as compared to India...
> 
> Have u ever thought why Israel being so small able to defend itself against the bigger adversaries..??
> 
> do u know why PAF didn't turn up during *karachi's attack in 1971 and in longewala *?



Yeah, the arguments are available in posts by me all over the forum as to valid reasons why.
Please stick to the topic and act your color.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## majesticpankaj

Oscar said:


> Yeah, the arguments are available in posts by me all over the forum as to valid reasons why.
> Please stick to the topic and act your color.



I'm talking about this thread only.... the questions put by me are very relevant ... don't be selective oscar...


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> I'm talking about this thread only.... the questions put by me are very relevant ... don't be selective oscar...



Im not seeing how? so no selectiveness there.
Explain your relevance on how a lack of capability in a war fought 40 years ago has relevance to the countering of a system?
Especially since your comment has more jibe and sarcasm to it which is exactly what my past posts have been critical of.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## majesticpankaj

Oscar said:


> Im not seeing how? so no selectiveness there.
> Explain your relevance on how a lack of capability in a war fought 40 years ago has relevance to the countering of a system?
> *Especially since your comment has more jibe and sarcasm to it* which is exactly what my past posts have been critical of.



didn't u read the post that I have replied ? I have asked the relevant question unlike other pakistani fanboys who thinks that PAF will make IAF dance on her tunes.. IAF can absorb the setbacks...

as far as sarcasm is concerned I hope MKI *bachan* is said in a sincere way.


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> didn't u read the post that I have replied ? I have asked the relevant question unlike other pakistani fanboys who thinks that PAF will make IAF dance on her tunes.. IAF can absorb the setbacks...
> 
> as far as sarcasm is concerned I hope MKI *bachan* is said in a sincere way.



Yes, but that does not answer the question.. how is that going to play out in the conflict and the MKI's effectiveness?
its as much a statement as the sky will turn black at night.

Your Israel reference is also counterproductive to what you want to say, since Israel has lesser bases than all of its arab rivals combined and keeps greater assets at each of them. Israel relies on the effectiveness of its C4I system and a much faster response time for its assets. Israel does not fight with the F-16I or F-15I and tout them. It fights as the IASF as a combined system that uses all the resources at its disposal. Hence even being smaller, and having lesser bases to bear it comes out better.

*list of IASF bases:*
Palmachim
Tel Aviv-Ben Gurion IAP/Lod
Tel Nof
Haifa

Hatzerim
Hatzor
Nevatim
Ovda

Ramat David
Ramon
Sde Dov / Tel Aviv-Dov Hoz AP

*List of opposing bases:

Egypt:*

Bilbays
Abu Suwayr
Al Mansurah
Fayid
Gebel el Basur
Inshas
Jiyanklis New
Kom Awshim
Az Zaqaziq
Birma/Tanta

El Minya
Wadi al Jandali
Alexandria/Intl
Cairo/Almaza
Beni Suef
Cairo/Intl
Cairo/West
Hurghada
Mersha Matruh
Aswan

*Syria:*
Abu ad Duhur
Hamah
Tabqa
As Suwayda

Dumayr
Jirah
Marj Ruhayyil
An Nasiriya

Shayrat
Rasin el Aboud
Damascus-Mezze
Saiqal/Tsaykal

Khalkhalah
Al Qusayr
Minakh
Tiyas

Qabr as Sitt
Afis
Marj As Sultan
Aleppo/Intl

Damascus/Intl
Deir Zzor/Deir Zzor


And the MKI Bachan is a jibe at the "extremist" sarcasm and pointless retorts put forward by your countrymen here.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Irfan Baloch

majesticpankaj said:


> as far as sarcasm is concerned I hope MKI *bachan* is said in a sincere way.



yes its a complement and recognition to the high esteem given by the Indians to this plane. just like the one and only Bachan

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## majesticpankaj

^^^^ so u r admitting that u took a jibe...come on man .. u have the power to delete the posts.. instead u joined the bandwagon..

@topic... as u have already mentioned why Israel is so effective ..but u forget the mentioned the superior weaponry systems they have... PAF doesn't have any advantage on any front.... don't have superior weaponry nor the bigger force...



Irfan Baloch said:


> yes its a complement and recognition to the high esteem given by the Indians to this plane. just like the one and only Bachan



I hope .. u don't mind if Indians honor few of planes with some interesting names


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> ^^^^ so u r admitting that u took a jibe...come on man .. u have the power to delete the posts.. instead u joined the bandwagon..
> 
> @topic... as u have already mentioned why Israel is so effective ..but u forget the mentioned the superior weaponry systems they have... PAF doesn't have any advantage on any front....* don't have superior weaponry nor the bigger force...*
> 
> 
> 
> I hope .. u don't mind if Indians honor few of planes with some interesting names



I am also a member and have my own opinions. And any further jibes after that will be treated with high selectivity as this still remains a Pakistani forum.

Israel's weapons systems arent beyond the reach of many threats. 
And they werent beyond the reach of many threats in 73.
How do you know the effectiveness of the PAF systems? What source do you have that has a written report of visiting and evaluating PAF systems and C4I measures and datalinks and EW systems?
Whats your gauge.. ?
The IAF is eager to publish the installation of new tyres every week, do you have similar reports on the PAF?

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Irfan Baloch

majesticpankaj said:


> ^^^^ so u r admitting that u took a jibe...come on man .. u have the power to delete the posts.. instead u joined the bandwagon..
> 
> @topic... as u have already mentioned why Israel is so effective ..but u forget the mentioned the superior weaponry systems they have... PAF doesn't have any advantage on any front.... don't have superior weaponry nor the bigger force...


He didnt, 
he very eloquently kept the debate valid and relevant for everyone. 



> I hope .. u don't mind if Indians honor few of planes with some interesting names


I hope you dont. because that will be derailing the topic indeed and an after effect of the red mist which is a terrible thing I know

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## majesticpankaj

Irfan Baloch said:


> He didnt,
> he very eloquently kept the debate valid and relevant for everyone.
> 
> 
> I hope you dont. because that will be derailing the topic indeed and an after effect of the red mist which is a terrible thing I know




I hope u don't abuse your power.... I didn't say that i will do it....


----------



## Windjammer

majesticpankaj said:


> by argument India has higher numbers of jets along with much better resources....pakistan is a small country with lesser number of bases as compared to India...
> 
> Have u ever thought why Israel being so small able to defend itself against the bigger adversaries..??
> 
> do u know why PAF didn't turn up during karachi's attack in 1971 and in longewala ?



Like wise one could ask, where was the heavily superior IAF, when PAF was conducting daring daylight raids against Utterlai, Pathankot and devastating Mukerian rail yards. The fall of Dacca may have clouded PAF's above expectation performance but it certainly didn't make the IAF stand out in the conflict. !!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## majesticpankaj

Windjammer said:


> Like wise one could ask, where was the heavily superior IAF, when PAF was conducting daring daylight raids against Utterlai, Pathankot and devastating Mukerian rail yards. The fall of Dacca may have clouded PAF's above expectation performance but it certainly didn't make the IAF stand out in the conflict. !!



I can also put a list of bravery of IAF..but don't have any to show of any cowardliness... I hope u get the drift...

anyways... let stick with the thread.


----------



## SwatCat

Windjammer said:


> Like wise one could ask, where was the heavily superior IAF, when PAF was conducting daring daylight raids against Utterlai, Pathankot and devastating Mukerian rail yards. The fall of Dacca may have clouded PAF's above expectation performance but it certainly didn't make the IAF stand out in the conflict. !!



They are with IA which is gaining defeating PA and making them surrender.


----------



## Windjammer

majesticpankaj said:


> I can also put a list of bravery of IAF..but don't have any to show of any cowardliness... I hope u get the drift...
> 
> anyways... let stick with the thread.


Yea drag in the drones to make your self feel better.
You know, Israelis can indeed take pride by taking on much bigger air arms......much less we can say for our Eastern neighbour. !!
Right back to the topic.

BTW, I have also read Indian members referring to the MKI as Rapptor of the East. !!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

majesticpankaj said:


> you have now come down to empty chest thumping...
> I have not mentioned the salala attack or OBL's episode... the clue was in my earlier post which has mentioned the events.
> 
> and I have listen that PAF official offering the f-16 capabilities with 1/3 of price... !!



Shooting over others shoulder grows hairs on your chest mate, typical escape ploy .....my argument was confined vis-a-vis IAF.
Whatever the PAF is offering is not being shoved down anyone's throat......hell at least we are not claiming it to be the "next Gen". !!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MilSpec

Gentlemen... How bout keeping the entire discussion limited to the scope of the thread, lets not make this thread into IAF/PAF thread. (request to mods to cleanup unwanted posts)
@Fellow Indian members, Please avoid bringing in history into the thread, let the discussion be limited to "countering MKI" if you want to discuss numbers game projection go to the relevant thread or create a new one.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Yea drag in the drones to make your self feel better.
> You know, Israelis can indeed take pride by taking on much bigger air arms......much less we can say for our Eastern neighbour. !!
> Right back to the topic.
> 
> BTW, I have also read Indian members referring to the MKI as *Rapptor of the East.* !!!



The problem comes with realistic assessment and something as simple as humility.
The MKI is without a doubt.. a fine aircraft, an excellent weapons system ..that is quite a match for the likes of not just the JF-17, but the F-16 and F-15. 
However, its not without its flaws and weaknesses that not every pilot will be able to cover for...and out of 50% scenario's these can be exploited effectively. 

The era of turning dogfights is still coming to an end.. the newer generation of IR missiles with 60 g maneuvering will leave most aircraft short of energy if they manage to survive it. And the next missile on its way will kill them . And while I dont entirely agree with the initial idea that IFF will be needed on all engagements between the two sides.. they will have a lot of effect. 
even the most advanced IFF systems along with AWACS conflicting the combat zone did not stop US F-15's downing UH-60's or F/A-18's being brought down by patriot. 
With the sort of distance that is between the main assets of the IAF and the PAF.. along with the high information and situational overload thanks to AEW systems and ground radar linked with C4I. Both PAF and IAF planners , controllers and even pilots will know when the other is taking off, landing, turning etc.
That will immediately remove the advantage the current disparity gives.. and will lead to massive confusion during war too.
An MKI flight may end up engaging a Vajra flight in the heat of battle as it tries to sort it out from PAF fighters engaging it. BVR missiles will not be used from a 100km but rather at the edge between BVR and WVR. 
The advantage the MKI brings is carriage capacity.. but how much of that is useful? How to gauge the effectiveness of the weapons systems and the survivability of each? 
There wont be five minutes to BVR range, it will be 3-4 minutes to aircraft merging.. which leaves the possibility of not more than one or two BVR shots before there are WVR missiles heading your way.

take a leaf out of the 82 lebanon conflict.. where the distances between airbases somewhat measure up to what it is today between India and Pakistan.
the majority of the kills even by IDF fighters that were BVR capable in the F-15 were WVR..

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## majesticpankaj

^^^^ pretty good summary ... but i would like to mention few more points...

1. MKI can carry higher payload along with it has LONG LEGS (can hold it grounds for long period of time)
2. Mature platform with huge number
3. No supply chain issues.


----------



## Windjammer

The Vietnam scenario comes to mind, when the heavier powerful the likes of F-4 had to jettison their loads in face of slicing attacks by lightweights such as MiG-17 and MiG-21. !!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> The problem comes with realistic assessment and something as simple as humility.
> The MKI is without a doubt.. a fine aircraft, an excellent weapons system ..that is quite a match for the likes of not just the JF-17, but the F-16 and F-15.
> However, its not without its flaws and weaknesses that not every pilot will be able to cover for...and out of 50% scenario's these can be exploited effectively.
> 
> The era of turning dogfights is still coming to an end.. the newer generation of IR missiles with 60 g maneuvering will leave most aircraft short of energy if they manage to survive it. And the next missile on its way will kill them . And while I dont entirely agree with the initial idea that IFF will be needed on all engagements between the two sides.. they will have a lot of effect.
> even the most advanced IFF systems along with AWACS conflicting the combat zone did not stop US F-15's downing UH-60's or F/A-18's being brought down by patriot.
> With the sort of distance that is between the main assets of the IAF and the PAF.. along with the high information and situational overload thanks to AEW systems and ground radar linked with C4I. Both PAF and IAF planners , controllers and even pilots will know when the other is taking off, landing, turning etc.
> That will immediately remove the advantage the current disparity gives.. and will lead to massive confusion during war too.
> An MKI flight may end up engaging a Vajra flight in the heat of battle as it tries to sort it out from PAF fighters engaging it. BVR missiles will not be used from a 100km but rather at the edge between BVR and WVR.
> The advantage the MKI brings is carriage capacity.. but how much of that is useful? How to gauge the effectiveness of the weapons systems and the survivability of each?
> There wont be five minutes to BVR range, it will be 3-4 minutes to aircraft merging.. which leaves the possibility of not more than one or two BVR shots before there are WVR missiles heading your way.
> 
> take a leaf out of the 82 lebanon conflict.. where the distances between airbases somewhat measure up to what it is today between India and Pakistan.
> the majority of the kills even by IDF fighters that were BVR capable in the F-15 were WVR..


Sir, 

No BVR missile is ever fired at it's max range distance ever, sucess depends IMO upon least reaction time offered to the enemy. 

Carrying capacity: India doesn't have any true multi-role/omnirole until rafales arrive. All of India's multi role/air dom fighter are basically true air superiority fighters masquerading as multi-roles platforms (MKI, m2k and M29upg's). Where this payload brings an advantage to the MKI in clean air superiority config is throwing two missiles with active and passive seekers towards a single target. This significantly increases its kill probability even against the best SPS in the world. MKI's unique architecture allows IAF to carry all relevant munitions, not just the R-series, I wont go into those details. And with a full load of armament, the platform is still exceptionally nimble when it comes to supersonic/subsonic maneuverability. 

As far as WVR is concerned, Aim 9X is around 34 kms, R73M1 is around 30Kms, I dont know whose visual range is that high, unless your flir is scouting the horizon for a missile. To me personally even these Short range a2a seem pretty beyond visual range

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> ^^^^ pretty good summary ... but i would like to mention few more points...
> 
> 1. MKI can carry higher payload along with it has LONG LEGS (can hold it grounds for long period of time)
> 2. Mature platform with huge number
> 3. No supply chain issues.



1. How much of it will be usable within that short response time? And will all that payload survive?
2. Pretty much will be the same story with the opponents.
3. Excellent.. but in the context of immediate aerial engagements.. ??


sandy_3126 said:


> Sir,
> 
> No BVR missile is ever fired at it's max range distance ever, sucess depends IMO upon least reaction time offered to the enemy.
> 
> Carrying capacity: India doesn't have any true multi-role/omnirole until rafales arrive. All of India's multi role/air dom fighter are basically true air superiority fighters masquerading as multi-roles platforms (MKI, m2k and M29upg's). Where this payload brings an advantage to the MKI in clean air superiority config is throwing two missiles with active and passive seekers towards a single target. This significantly increases its kill probability even against the best SPS in the world. MKI's unique architecture allows IAF to carry all relevant munitions, not just the R-series, I wont go into those details. And with a full load of armament, the platform is still exceptionally nimble when it comes to supersonic/subsonic maneuverability.
> 
> As far as WVR is concerned, Aim 9X is around 34 kms, R73M1 is around 30Kms, I dont know whose visual range is that high, unless your flir is scouting the horizon for a missile. To me personally even these Short range a2a seem pretty beyond visual range



The reason the R series were always wired with two different seeker heads was the issue of PK's. The Russians were worried that one missile would not hit. The newer missiles improved on this and it does ensure a higher PK albeit for expending two missiles. In fact the Russians developed the active seeker variant for the R-27 because there was an initial disappointment with the performance of the R-77 system.(which is why it never went into mass production until the R-77M came out)

But then the Alamo doesnt have a good track record either.. during the Eritrian-Ethopian conflict..
some 24 AA-10 missiles of both the R and T types were fired with only 1 kill. 

A list of Indian purchase of these missiles that are still useful(not past their shelf life is):
R-27R- 300 missiles. (all from ex-Ukraine stock)
R-27RE - 100 missiles (new build from Russia and ex stock from Ukraine)
R-27TE -56 (New build from Russia)

existing R-27 variants would be going motor refurbishment and others are up for replacement by R-77 variants.

R-77 180 purchased 2001 for initial batch of MKI's, further missiles have been paid for and deliveries underway.
R-73(2 variants) 450 purchased 1999(R-73 basic) and 2009-10(R-73E)


Even if that is the armament, that means that the MKI has to regularly expend 2 types of missiles to ensure a kill. and hence in essence halves its payload effectiveness when employing that tactic. This tactic was designed by the Russians against heavier aircraft such as bombers.. when it came to engaging fighters they preferred the WVR based on hearing of US studies.

back when the AIMVAL/ACEVAL ACEVAL/AIMVAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F-15's would score 64-0 when going against F-5 1vs1.. 
as more aircraft kept being added the ratio came down to as low as 2:0.. the changing factor was the "unseen shooter".

The MKI has an open architecture which is compatible with the standard mil-bus and hence it should be able to carry most munitions with just a few software uploads.. But that is useful if the source codes needed to operate those munitions is available. It should be able to fire the MICA-IR but would not be able to fire the EM unless the codes for it are released.

I do not consider the R series to be the penultimate armament of the MKI but the Astra.. which is a superior weapon when compared to the various issues and unverified capabilities of the R series.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Pfpilot

The offensive role of the MKI as an air superiority fighter plays a large part in its potential performance. Even an aircraft this capable is at a severe disadvantage when it's primary mission is to hunt down other fighters. This scenario provides the hunted with creative opportunities to deny the hunter a kill shot. There are limitations on the passive capabilities of all South Asian fighters, but jf-17s operating within Pakistan, under the cover of AWACs and surface radars, will be in a position to remain hidden till the most optimum situation presents itself. 

In the defensive scenario that is going to be the reality for Pakistan in any wide scale conflict, the destruction of the MKIs are not nearly as important as preventing them from inflicting harm on PAF and PA assets. If PAF aircraft are able to avoid getting shot down in large numbers and can effectively counter IAF strike assets, then the job is done. Where the problem arises is in the offensive capabilities of the PAF; facing IAF aircraft on their own turf flips the script completely. And unlike Pakistan, the IAF assets are numerous enough and advanced enough to overwhelm any PAF interdiction missions, while concurrently launching numerous strike deep into Pakistani territory. That is not to say, it is a lost cause, but we'd be lucky to inflict any lasting damage to the Indian war fighting machine within it's borders. The MKI within it's own borders would be an even more fearsome adversary.

The crux of the problem then, is the inability of the other arms of the armed forces to accomplish what is required of them. I believe the PAF can keep the IAF at bay for a limited amount of time, but then what? The respite provided would only further embolden the Army to take the battle to India and then get massacred in Gujarat, Rajasthan, and Punjab. The navy is completely incapable of preventing a blockade of Karachi for more than a minuscule amount of time. So the issue becomes, while the PAF is more than capable of preventing the MKIs from gaining air supremacy over Pakistani skies, it is incapable of carrying that effectiveness over to Indian territory. Lets not forget, Pakistan would desperately need Indian territory to form a buffer against advancing Indian forces, since all Pakistan urban centers are within few short hours of the border. The IAF has the resources to launch attacks into Pakistan and wait for the kink in the proverbial air defense armor; the PAF doesn't have the assets to distract the Indian assets within India.

So if the PAF has to defend the shipping lanes, strategic assets, army supply lines and armor, and also preserve it's own war fighting capability at the same time; then the MKI becomes a progressively more dangerous adversary as the war drags on. We can shoot it down, we can avoid being shot down, but even Mohammad Ali could take only so many punches before he'd go down...and I don't believe we are exactly the heavy weight champion of the world. Our disadvantage against the MKI lies in are inability to rely on the rest of the armed forces and the simple concept of attrition, which we don't have the numbers to counter.

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> 1. How much of it will be usable within that short response time? And will all that payload survive?
> 2. Pretty much will be the same story with the opponents.
> 3. Excellent.. but in the context of immediate aerial engagements.. ??
> 
> 
> The reason the R series were always wired with two different seeker heads was the issue of PK's. The Russians were worried that one missile would not hit. The newer missiles improved on this and it does ensure a higher PK albeit for expending two missiles. In fact the Russians developed the active seeker variant for the R-27 because there was an initial disappointment with the performance of the R-77 system.(which is why it never went into mass production until the R-77M came out)
> 
> But then the Alamo doesnt have a good track record either.. during the Eritrian-Ethopian conflict..
> some 24 AA-10 missiles of both the R and T types were fired with only 1 kill.
> 
> A list of Indian purchase of these missiles that are still useful(not past their shelf life is):
> R-27R- 300 missiles. (all from ex-Ukraine stock)
> R-27RE - 100 missiles (new build from Russia and ex stock from Ukraine)
> R-27TE -56 (New build from Russia)
> 
> existing R-27 variants would be going motor refurbishment and others are up for replacement by R-77 variants.
> 
> R-77 180 purchased 2001 for initial batch of MKI's, further missiles have been paid for and deliveries underway.
> R-73(2 variants) 450 purchased 1999(R-73 basic) and 2009-10(R-73E)
> 
> 
> Even if that is the armament, that means that the MKI has to regularly expend 2 types of missiles to ensure a kill. and hence in essence halves its payload effectiveness when employing that tactic. This tactic was designed by the Russians against heavier aircraft such as bombers.. when it came to engaging fighters they preferred the WVR based on hearing of US studies.
> 
> back when the AIMVAL/ACEVAL ACEVAL/AIMVAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> F-15's would score 64-0 when going against F-5 1vs1..
> as more aircraft kept being added the ratio came down to as low as 2:0.. the changing factor was the "unseen shooter".
> 
> The MKI has an open architecture which is compatible with the standard mil-bus and hence it should be able to carry most munitions with just a few software uploads.. But that is useful if the source codes needed to operate those munitions is available. It should be able to fire the MICA-IR but would not be able to fire the EM unless the codes for it are released.
> 
> I do not consider the R series to be the penultimate armament of the MKI but the Astra.. which is a superior weapon when compared to the various issues and unverified capabilities of the R series.




Sir, 
I would not want to go into the details of which R-series missiles are in the inventory. let's leave it to that. 

As far as firing two AAM's are concerned you are absolutely right about the phil of use. The new seeker on R27's and R77 seems to have impressed IAF brass. Eritiran-ethopian conflict, both sides flew ukranian and russian pilots, i am sure they knew exactly how to counter the deployed strategies. Apart from that, i am not sure how many fired actually to bring down the other who might have served on the same afb at some time. As far as eritrean fulcrums, these were used not new but used russian fulcrums of early 90's vintage, AA10 versions operated by Eritrea is also unknown. 

Astra: Is an unkown variable in the AAM sphere. I have heard conflicting speculations of Israeli involvement in seeker design whereas some claim vympel-DRDO is building 2 different seekers for 3 versions of the ASTRA mk2/3.


----------



## Donatello

majesticpankaj said:


> ^^^^ pretty good summary ... but i would like to mention few more points...
> 
> 1. MKI can carry higher payload along with it has LONG LEGS (can hold it grounds for long period of time)
> 2. Mature platform with huge number
> 3. No supply chain issues.




Don't forget the more weapons you load on your Aircraft, the more it's agility is affected. Su30MKI is a superior aircraft in terms of maneuverability, but with full load of 6-8 tonnes, it changes the performance dramatically.

And like Oscar pointed out, because most of IAF bases and PAF bases near each other, the possibility that WVR combat takes place goes up. and for WVR combat, agility is everything!!! So it's not necessary that MKI would be carrying a full load every time.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## majesticpankaj

Donatello said:


> Don't forget the more weapons you load on your Aircraft, the more it's agility is affected. Su30MKI is a superior aircraft in terms of maneuverability, but with full load of 6-8 tonnes, it changes the performance dramatically.
> 
> And like Oscar pointed out, because most of IAF bases and PAF bases near each other, the possibility that WVR combat takes place goes up. and for WVR combat, agility is everything!!! So it's not necessary that MKI would be carrying a full load every time.



don't forget... we have other planes in arsenal... u have only 18 f16 blk 52 .. for every 1 hrs of flying it requires 8 hrs of maintenance hours. With long legs it can wait and watch.


----------



## SQ8

majesticpankaj said:


> don't forget... we have other planes in arsenal... u have only 18 f16 blk 52 .. for every 1 hrs of flying it requires 8 hrs of maintenance hours. With long legs it can wait and watch.



Its not the only BVR asset. .. we also have other planes in the arsenal.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Safriz

Donatello said:


> Don't forget the more weapons you load on your Aircraft, the more it's agility is affected. Su30MKI is a superior aircraft in terms of maneuverability, but with full load of 6-8 tonnes, it changes the performance dramatically.
> 
> And like Oscar pointed out, because most of IAF bases and PAF bases near each other, the possibility that WVR combat takes place goes up. and for WVR combat, agility is everything!!! So it's not necessary that MKI would be carrying a full load every time.



Same was the situation of Sweden during soviet-Finland war.
Their airforce dictorine was based on the assumption that USSR will over run Sweden within 24 hours and then Swedish Airfirce will have to go 'militant'.
Thus small Grippen with short runway requirements and well maintained 'straight' stretches of motorways,and swedish Pilots teained to land and take off from Motorways.Airforce assets widely distributed across sweden with many small airstrips in remote areas.
Maintinance crew trained to re-arm and maintain a Grippen quickly from a small airstrip,or a motorway..
Gripprn itself designed to to need little and quick mantinance..
Same may be the doctrine of PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Zabaniyah

Oscar said:


> But then the Alamo doesnt have a good track record either.. during the Eritrian-Ethopian conflict..
> some 24 AA-10 missiles of both the R and T types were fired with only 1 kill.



Sir, 

If I'm not mistaken, the mercenary pilots apparently fired those missiles too early. Hence, the poor hit probability. 

The R-27 is old though...and I have often questioned its actual effectiveness. 

Interestingly, all of the Eritrean MiG-29s were shot down with the R-73 by Ethiopian Su-27s.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Umair Nawaz

sandy_3126 said:


> Gentlemen... How bout keeping the entire discussion limited to the scope of the thread, lets not make this thread into IAF/PAF thread. (request to mods to cleanup unwanted posts)
> @Fellow Indian members, Please avoid bringing in history into the thread, let the discussion be limited to "countering MKI" if you want to discuss numbers game projection go to the relevant thread or create a new one.


Aye haye Sandy kya baat ha.

Cha gya tu aj!!!


----------



## Windjammer

majesticpankaj said:


> don't forget... we have other planes in arsenal... u have only 18 f16 blk 52 .. for every 1 hrs of flying it requires 8 hrs of maintenance hours. With long legs it can wait and watch.



As Oscar said, F-16 is not the only BVR capable asset in PAF inventory, as for the man/flight hours ratio, come back and talk when any aircraft in Indian line up even comes close to achieving the following mile stone. !!! 

*
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1468.html*


----------



## Donatello

majesticpankaj said:


> don't forget... we have other planes in arsenal... *u have only 18 f16 blk 52 .. for every 1 hrs of flying it requires 8 hrs of maintenance hours. With long legs it can wait and watch.*



Wrong again....

All 45 F-16 A/Bs are being MLU-ed which pretty much puts their main electronics up to the BLK 52 standard, plus the 500 AIM120C5 that PAF bought.........

All JF-17s are BVR capable as well.......so by 2014 that Gives about 100 BVR jets to PAF.


----------



## bloo

Irfan Baloch said:


> lets see if you can prove it
> 
> see if you can counter the points raised by the OP but be original dont copy or quote others
> he is still adamant that what he articulated is true despite getting hostile reaction from the patriots.



Sure





Oscar said:


> Ok, I think the TVC on the MKI is useless in combat. There is no pilot other than those in Russia who will verify to the contrary.
> A USAF colonel.. not a captain.. not a lt.. a colonel..with a minimum.. of 22 years flying and fighting jets.. whose testimony ignited a fire like no other on youtube.. has laid it out bare.
> So what, other than pseudo intellectuals like Kopp.. or otherwise.. can you find as evidence to the contrary.



Oh please if you mean Colonel Terence Fornoff then his comments have been contradicted years ago.
Even Nellis AFB denied being attached to any of his bland statements officially stating an apology.

True all the aerobatic maneuvers that people usually see will most probably be never used in a WVR combat but the capability to recover from post stall maneuvers and higher angle of attack can hardly be achieved by non TVC planes.
The very fact that TVC directly results in super-maneuverability should be enough reason, however 1 advantage is often forgotten by people is that MKI has 2 pilots, this very point increases its efficiency in striking.

Oh sure when Kopp has something to say his words are automatically crap and when your "colonel" actually says crap(Turmansky, FOD and what not) it is surely true coz after all he is a colonel.
Well some people have other things to say


By Anatoly Shamin, Alexander Ilgov, Vladimir Stepanov
Central Research Institute #30 of the MoD, Russia



> Engines with thrust-vectoring nozzles enable the Su-30MKI to perform such maneuvers as «cobra» vertical reverse, roll in «bell» turn in «cobra» etc. In these maneuvers, an angle of attack can reach 180o. These are not purely aerobatic maneuvers: this supermaneuverability can be effectively used in combat. As for the F-16 and F-18 aircraft, their maximum angles of attack are 30o and 40o, respectively, and they cannot use armament at supercritical angles of attack.
> 
> In terms of conventional maneuverability characteristics, all these fighters are very similar. However, according to preliminary assessments, the Su-30MKI&#8217;s supermaneuverability gives it a 30-percent superiority over its competitors in close air combat. Aircraft multiple capabilities put into the forefront the problem of effective weapon employment. To solve this problem, the Su-30MKI has a copilot/operator to improve the crew&#8217;s performance, weapon employment efficiency and provide for group missions.





> Speaking at the demonstration, Russian test pilot Yevgeny Frolov said
> that unlike aircraft with conventional thrust, this vectored-thrust
> model could be recovered from spins or from stall attitudes at almost
> any altitude.





> In its class, the Su-30 MKI has no competition. Those who tried &#8211; the McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet and General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - have failed.
> 
> Ask the most experienced Su-30 pilots in the country. They&#8217;ll tell you why. Ashu and Parag Lall, who are flying the Su-30, said: &#8220;No other aircraft in the world can perform the yaw turn and the tail slide, or do a vertical climb at 80 degrees and prepare for an angle of attack.&#8221;
> 
> The yaw turn is a 360-degree turn that the Su-30 can perform mid-air, while climbing or descending in flight. &#8220;If it is an attack situation, the Su-30 has the capacity to slow down, turn around immediately in any direction and shoot. Most other aircraft will have to do a big circle,&#8221; Ashu explains.
> 
> In actual flight, the sight of the 360-degree turn as the Su-30 descends, is a wonder you&#8217;ll think is humanly impossible.
> 
> The tail slide too, is as amazing. &#8220;The aircraft virtually stops mid-air and then begins to fly reverse at zero or even negative speed. No aircraft in the world flies reverse. Flying reverse puts enormous stress on the engine. But the Su-30 can take it,&#8221; Lall says.
> 
> Yet another wonder of the aircraft is the angle of attack. &#8220;The Su-30 can climb and attain an angle of attack of 80 degrees alpha, something which is never easy. And it does so comfortably,&#8221; pilots Jeetu Yadav and Rahul Chauhan add.
> 
> The four Pune-based pilots say thrust vectoring nozzle is the technology in the Su-30 that allows it to do near-impossible manoeuvres. &#8220;The Su-30 defies the laws of aerodynamics. It defies the laws of control,&#8221; they echo.
> 
> Ashu has been flying the Su-30 from 1997, which means his complexity threshold has been set by the Su-30. &#8220;All my life, I&#8217;ve been flying only the SU-30. There is no mission I&#8217;ve not undertaken in the aircraft. Every day begins and ends with the Su-30. So, it has come to a point where its complexity is second nature to me. I now try to do anything more complex than the existing state of complexity in the aircraft &#8211; that&#8217;s the extent to which I am used to it. I breathe and live the Su-30.&#8221;
> 
> Has fear of death ever crossed his mind? &#8220;I feel safest in the Su-30 cockpit. Where&#8217;s the place for fear? There is no traffic jam out there, is there?&#8221; he asks.
> 
> The pilots have this to tell students: &#8220;Try the ultimate job in the world. There is no high that is comparable to the high of piloting a combat aircraft. We would like students to give it a try. Get to an aircraft, smell it and you&#8217;ll soon see that you want to fly it.&#8221;

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Storm Force

Love the vedio for desribing the effectiveness of the TVC engine " the ability to turn on a six pence" with out flying in arcs like F16 or F7 OR fc20 gives the mki huge advantage in dog fighting ..

I KNOW INDERSTAND WHY ALL THE MAJOR FIFTH GENERATION FIGTHERS HAVE TVC as standard

ie F22 FGFA/T50 emply TVC 

ITS a game changer


----------



## Zabaniyah

Just one question: How effective is the TVC feature on a large, heavy-class fighter at high speeds? 

There are several variables one has to take into account when in combat. A split second decision can make the difference between victory and defeat.


----------



## SQ8

bloo said:


> Sure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please if you mean* Colonel Terence Fornoff then his comments have been contradicted years ago.*
> Even Nellis AFB denied being attached to any of his bland statements officially stating an apology.
> 
> True all the aerobatic maneuvers that people usually see will most probably be never used in a WVR combat but the capability to recover from post stall maneuvers and higher angle of attack can hardly be achieved by non TVC planes.
> The very fact that TVC directly results in super-maneuverability should be enough reason, however 1 advantage is often forgotten by people is that MKI has 2 pilots, this very point increases its efficiency in striking.
> 
> Oh sure when Kopp has something to say his words are automatically crap and when your "colonel" actually says crap(Turmansky, FOD and what not) it is surely true coz after all he is a colonel.
> Well some people have other things to say
> 
> 
> By Anatoly Shamin, Alexander Ilgov, Vladimir Stepanov
> Central Research Institute #30 of the MoD, Russia



Thats all because of the massive attack your countrymen put on him. It was a PR move, not a professional one.
He actually praised the MKI in the end but that is beyond your jingoism orientated approach.

All you are quoting is the manufacturer.. who will automatically praise what he has flown.
At no point does he even talk about how his rate's will factor into a scenario.
And I have no idea where the general designer assumes that conventional aircraft like the F-16 and F-16 CANNOT deploy weapons beyond those angles of attack.. what possible logic is there? Please use aviation sources other than the marketing side?

I have little use for "aerial ballet" videos.. make your point.. how is that TVC effective ?
The pilot claims that it can recover from any stall maneuver.. if he is USING TVC to GO post-stall to maneuver.. what is he recovering from???  He is already falling from the sky.. 
If the airflow over his wings is already disrupted due to him EXCEEDING the AOA.. then where is the recovery?
His statement has fooled the likes of you into thinking TVC is some magic that will keep an aircraft falling from the sky in a stall.
When all that it gives is the *ability to change AOA after a stall*.. so yes, you can recover faster by pitching your nose down or adding assymetric thrust in a spin.. 
But reach that situation in air-combat and you are being blown out of the sky.

The only actual advantage that you have quoted and is valid are the two heads.. but that too reduces itself as the number of aircraft in the fight increases.. where the two heads will help land a kill quicker in 1vs1.. by the time its gets to 5v5 the advantage goes down exponentially. 

That are principles of studies in aircombat such as ACEVAL.. please read up on them before coming up with the usual pseudo air combat ideals like Kopp.. 

All you have posted is copy paste logic instead of countering the statements.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

Storm Force said:


> Love the vedio for desribing the effectiveness of the TVC engine " the ability to turn on a six pence" with out flying in arcs like F16 or F7 OR fc20 gives the mki huge advantage in dog fighting ..
> 
> I KNOW INDERSTAND WHY ALL THE MAJOR FIFTH GENERATION FIGTHERS HAVE TVC as standard
> 
> ie F22 FGFA/T50 emply TVC
> 
> ITS a game changer



Not entirely.. the F-35 does not use TVC.. not because it could not.. but because it was not termed cost effective with the new generation of HOBS heaters with 60g maneuvering.. .. all the aerial ballets would not stop that kill.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

Storm Force said:


> Love the vedio for desribing the effectiveness of the TVC engine " the ability to turn on a six pence" with out flying in arcs like F16 or F7 OR fc20 gives the mki huge advantage in dog fighting ..
> 
> I KNOW INDERSTAND WHY ALL THE MAJOR FIFTH GENERATION FIGTHERS HAVE TVC as standard
> 
> ie F22 FGFA/T50 emply TVC
> 
> ITS a game changer




Hi,

So---okay TVC is a game changer----the aircraft can do wonders---but what about the fool who is flying it---what would happen to him---actually his body and .

There is a limit to stupidity of an argument---when there is a talk of TVC then it has to be stated AT WHAT SPEED would thrust vectoring happen---200 knots or at 600 knots.

Speed and the G forces are the most relative item in this argument / discussion of TVC---and none of you super geniuses have brought that out---.

Let us see how much you people know about it---.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> The problem comes with realistic assessment and something as simple as humility.
> The MKI is without a doubt.. a fine aircraft, an excellent weapons system ..that is quite a match for the likes of not just the JF-17, but the F-16 and F-15.
> However, its not without its flaws and weaknesses that not every pilot will be able to cover for...and out of 50% scenario's these can be exploited effectively.
> 
> The era of turning dogfights is still coming to an end.. the newer generation of IR missiles with 60 g maneuvering will leave most aircraft short of energy if they manage to survive it. And the next missile on its way will kill them . And while I dont entirely agree with the initial idea that IFF will be needed on all engagements between the two sides.. they will have a lot of effect.
> even the most advanced IFF systems along with AWACS conflicting the combat zone did not stop US F-15's downing UH-60's or F/A-18's being brought down by patriot.
> With the sort of distance that is between the main assets of the IAF and the PAF.. along with the high information and situational overload thanks to AEW systems and ground radar linked with C4I. Both PAF and IAF planners , controllers and even pilots will know when the other is taking off, landing, turning etc.
> That will immediately remove the advantage the current disparity gives.. and will lead to massive confusion during war too.
> An MKI flight may end up engaging a Vajra flight in the heat of battle as it tries to sort it out from PAF fighters engaging it. BVR missiles will not be used from a 100km but rather at the edge between BVR and WVR.
> The advantage the MKI brings is carriage capacity.. but how much of that is useful? How to gauge the effectiveness of the weapons systems and the survivability of each?
> *There wont be five minutes to BVR range, it will be 3-4 minutes to aircraft merging.. which leaves the possibility of not more than one or two BVR shots before there are WVR missiles heading your way.*
> 
> take a leaf out of the 82 lebanon conflict.. where the distances between airbases somewhat measure up to what it is today between India and Pakistan.
> the majority of the kills even by IDF fighters that were BVR capable in the F-15 were WVR..



Oscar, I knew that most of the IAF -PAF air bases are very close. And if both fly head on there will be very small amount of time to take a shot anf go WVR.

But, IAF have bases deeper than the border line. (PAF too) there not be a scenario where few fighters 'introduce' themselves into the fighting area, where few jets from both sides were engaged(since it will be more than earlier dog fighting era) take BVR shot navigate it and came back? Is this the future scenario 5th gen fighters thought to be operating?

So there will be time and chance to enter into the missile ranges(from both side, in fact) at will and engage and disengage. Since there will be AWACS cover from both sides, everybody know were are there, who are coming and who are waiting...
The higher payload and long endurance will give effective edge to MKIs in such scenarios IMO.


----------



## Saleem

with no money for fuel, ammo or spare parts.....best solution is .......


----------



## bloo

Oscar said:


> Thats all because of the massive attack your countrymen put on him. It was a PR move, not a professional one.
> He actually praised the MKI in the end but that is beyond your jingoism orientated approach.



Oh sure, trolling in front of your retired buddies(Daedalians) and posting that on youtube, is soooo professional.
And of course the news of the 'good' colonel's indiscretions automatically makes the Indian media liars.
Let me tell you sir a TRUE post exercise or a post mission briefing would never be televised or recorded for the general public.

And of course "praising"(condescending) the MKI will surely make all his over the top wrong claims right.Sir truth is not relative but absolute.

There is also a transcript if you wanna judge for yourself how right he was.





Oscar said:


> All you are quoting is the manufacturer.. who will automatically praise what he has flown.
> At no point does he even talk about how his rate's will factor into a scenario.
> And I have no idea where the general designer assumes that conventional aircraft like the F-16 and F-16 CANNOT deploy weapons beyond those angles of attack.. what possible logic is there? Please use aviation sources other than the marketing side?



What I quoted was not from the manufacturer but the "30th Central Scientific Research Institute, Russian Ministry of Defence" which has now merged with the MoD RF 4 CRI.

If there is anyone that'll know about real time tactics assessment it is them.

Their tasks are as follows:
- Threat assessment and forecasting.
- Defining operational and technical requirements.
- Monitoring defence industry progress on the Russian Air Force acquisitions.
- Performance evaluations of the newly developed aerospace technologies and complexes.

The most common possible logic is that it comes from them and I will bet you on their word as they are directly related to the development of warfighting skills.





Oscar said:


> I have little use for "aerial ballet" videos.. make your point.. how is that TVC effective ?
> The pilot claims that it can recover from any stall maneuver.. if he is USING TVC to GO post-stall to maneuver..
> 
> If the airflow over his wings is already disrupted due to him EXCEEDING the AOA.. then where is the recovery?




What do you mean by where is the recovery?
When the angle of attack exceeds its critical value the plane automatically enters stall. And now the post stall begins where the recovery takes place.
When the air flow is disrupted or flow separation that is at the critical angle of attack the separated flow is so powerful that further increases in AoA results in less lift and more drag after which the TVC along side other necessary control surfaces take over.
Disrupted airflow basically means flow separation and nothing more.
The fly-by-wire as we know manipulates the control surfaces along side the thrust vectored engine nozzles without the pilots input during the post stall.

"EXCEEDING the AOA" does not mean the MKI is flying beyond the AoA that is impossible. It basically means that it has reached the critical value of its AoA and thus is recovering in the post stall.




Oscar said:


> what is he recovering from???  He is already falling from the sky..



SIRJI what he is recovering from is the stall, post stall does not automatically mean you are falling. True it results to a fall in height as that is what we have learnt from the olden days but those were olden planes and MKI is no olden plane.
TVC prevents this fall that is if the maneuver is performed right.
The thrust from the engine is applying an appropriate force that is why we see a 'hang time', therefore NO he is not falling from the sky.
It looks like its defying the laws of motion coz in this case the object itself is applying asymmetrical force.

You do understand what happens in a post stall?
In a post stall control surfaces like ailerons and elevators don't work thus the use of thrust vectoring. I hope you have atleast heard of the term "post-stall technologies".



> In order to perform the Cobra (in this example, in a Su-27 Flanker) the pilot reduces speed to approximately 275 knots in level flight. S/he then must disable the AOA limiter on the Flight Control System, as this serves to limit the airplane to angles of attack not exceeding 30 degrees in normal flight. Once this is accomplished, the pilot sharply pitches up the nose of the airplane. If the speeds are right and the pitchup is done properly, the aircraft will rotate around its horizontal axis until the nose is past vertical - the single-seat Flanker can achieve between 110 and 120 degree AOA! - while continuing to move in its prior flight path as the maneuver is too quick and there isn't enough energy to allow the airplane to climb as it pitches up. Once the pilot has reached the desired attitude, s/he sharply increases throttle and releases the stick. The airplane has managed to rotate back past vertical on the initial rotational energy of the pitchup maneuver; once it approaches vertical, however, the rear half of the aircraft (now the 'lower' half) generates much more drag than the front (or 'top') half due to the larger cross-section of the wings and stabilizers. This will cause the rotation to stop and then reverse, the nose pitching sharply 'down' relative to the airframe, back into level flight. The throttle added during the maneuver will, if done properly, prevent the airplane from losing any altitude during the process. In sum, the maneuver should take no more than a few seconds. The aircraft will exit the maneuver at around 135 knots, which means it is in a fairly precarious position until it gains airspeed. The MiG-29 and Su-27 are both designed to have extremely large tolerances for airflow deviation into the engine inlets. This is what permits them to perform this maneuver without suffering an engine unstart (normally). In addition, their postive lateral stability and clean lines reduce the risk of a full stall during the procedure. They have high thrust-to-weight ratios as well. The MiG-29 must enter a climb of around 30 degrees before performing the Cobra as it will not recover quickly enough to avoid losing altitude. Vehicles known to be able to make the cobra maneuver are the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker family (from horizontal flight), and Mikoyan MiG-29 (from a 30 degree up angle). Thrust vectoring aircraft (such as the Sukhoi Su-30, Su-37, Su-47, MiG 1.42, F-22, F-15 ACTIVE, F-16 MATV/VISTA, and NASA's X-31) should be able to perform this maneuver more easily, though note that the air intake still needs to be able to handle the air inflow. The Eurofighter Typhoon should be able to perform this maneuver, as long as the engines stay lit.








Oscar said:


> His statement has fooled the likes of you into thinking TVC is some magic that will keep an aircraft falling from the sky in a stall.
> When all that it gives is the *ability to change AOA after a stall*.. so yes, you can recover faster by pitching your nose down or adding assymetric thrust in a spin..
> But reach that situation in air-combat and you are being blown out of the sky.



Oh no no no don't delude yourself into assuming that that is what we think, you yourself are thinking that the MKI is a "magic plane".
What we believe is that TVC can kick some major @@s and although it can't stay as long as per your standards as it does not have "magic", it can stay longer than its opponents.
 you just explained TVC and yet you won't except it outcomes. 
I'll show u after just a bit, the advantages of the AoA provided by the TVC and how it is necessary in air combat.

And of course the Indian pilot is not considered as an expert so we happily breeze past his claims after all the "good" colonel's words are set in stone.






Oscar said:


> The only actual advantage that you have quoted and is valid are the two heads.. but that too reduces itself as the number of aircraft in the fight increases.. where the two heads will help land a kill quicker in 1vs1.. by the time its gets to 5v5 the advantage goes down exponentially.
> 
> That are principles of studies in aircombat such as ACEVAL.. please read up on them before coming up with the usual pseudo air combat ideals like Kopp..




Oh so do tell what advantage does non TVC planes have in the 5v5s that TVC planes don't?
No one claims that TVC can help dodge any missile or that it will be used in literally every phase of the flight or that it can negate everything.
TVC is only 1 aspect of the plane, its the complete plane that we brag about.
If you really wanna go there then the MKI again has quite an advantage with 2 radars more than enough for off-boresight detection and 1 IRST probe for passive detection, 12-14 hardpoints thus can carry more armaments, data linking with other MKIs, et cetra.
But that's a whole another thing.

When you are considering ACEVAL or AIMVAL the very implication of a TVC is to be considered lest what's the purpose of reading a paper on air-combat maneuvering when you are judging a pure vectoring fighter or a supermaneuverable TVC fighter by evaluations done on conventional fighters?

And please what is with you continuously attacking Kopp? I am not even basing my statements on any of his claims.
His resume itself will be enough to frighten both of ours combined so his words do carry weight regardless of your prejudices.




Oscar said:


> .. how is that TVC effective ?





> For instance, consider an aircraft that has an excellent
> turn rate at a given speed. Another aircraft, on account of,
> say, an inferior T/W, may not be able to achieve such high
> rates. However, it may have excellent abilities to point
> quickly, perhaps through Post Stall Maneuverability
> (PSM) and Thrust Vectoring (TV). In combat, where
> aircraft turn into each other and seek firing positions by
> pointing at the adversary, the second aircraft may actually
> have a greater chance of winning, although it may not turn
> as quickly as the first aircraft. This suggests that a superior
> performance rating in terms of traditional metrics does not
> immediately translate into combat superiority, which has
> to be evaluated using agility metrics.





> Air superiority
> A better control of the aircraft is achieved with Thrust
> Vectoring, especially at low speed conditions, where
> conventional aerodynamic controls are not effective, and
> where a good number of combat scenarios are to take place.





> According to Herbst, the first variety of combat was played out in most simulated
> engagements by the two dueling aircraft first maneuvering into a head-on situation. If the
> subsequent weapons exchange was unsuccessful, both aircraft then attempted to reverse
> course as quickly as possible for another exchange. Hence the fighter with the better turn
> rate was able to maneuver for a shot before his opponent, and was more likely to win the
> engagement. Put in another way, the fighter that was able to reverse his velocity vector
> faster was more likely to win the engagement.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> In short, a pure vectoring fighter (PVF) would have a similar or greater advantage over a
> supermaneuverable, Thrust Vectoring fighter (STVF) than a supermaneuverable fighter(SF) has (and has demonstrated) over a
> conventional fighter (CF). The primary reason for that advantage is very straightforward:
> the SF or STVF remains controllable in the post-stall region, and can therefore perform
> maneuvers that a CF cannot; hence the combat advantages enumerated in the previous
> section. Likewise, while a SF or STVF is controllable in post-stall, a PVF theoretically
> would have the same control power in the post-stall region as it does in conventional flight (since its controls are independent of the external air flow). Therefore, it would be
> able to outperform a SF or STVF in post-stall, and consequently would be the most
> capable fighter aircraft possible until a breakthrough in engine technology comes along.





> Theorists say air combat could be changed by the introduction of some maneuvers unique to thrust vectoring. A high angle-of-attack descending spiral is one. At a high angle of attack, a rudder loses its effectiveness, and being able to rely on thrust vectoring would let a pilot enter what&#8217;s essentially a controlled flat spin, yawing the airplane around to aim at a target without worrying about the rudder. The pilot also gets extra maneuverability at high altitudes, says Wagemann, &#8220;where the air density is so low that the flight control surfaces become significantly degraded.&#8221; Then there&#8217;s the super-tight J-turn, or even a modified hammerhead, in which an airplane appears to briefly fly backward.



So this basically translates to the fact that modern aerial warfare won't exactly involve too much dog-fighting(or it could depends on the parameters) however when it does the TVC plane will have an edge most of the time.




Oscar said:


> All you have posted is copy paste logic instead of countering the statements.




Sirji you too have posted your arguments based on copy pasted knowledge,of course you'll find a difference between the question and answer if you are willing to put a double standard on ur arguments and not do the same for my rebuttals.



I don't see why some people will incessantly try to show that the TVC is of no use when almost all the powerful AF's(Your beloved PLAAF included) are continuously opting for it, when 6th gen fighters are based completely on TVC and when there is underlying proof of how well it has performed and is performing.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## danger007

@Oscar, so your mean is TVC have no advantage but holds disadvantage. well i wonder Russian air force pilots and their engineer don't get your simple logic?


----------



## Zabaniyah

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So---okay TVC is a game changer----the aircraft can do wonders---but what about the fool who is flying it---what would happen to him---actually his body and .
> 
> There is a limit to stupidity of an argument---when there is a talk of TVC then it has to be stated AT WHAT SPEED would thrust vectoring happen---200 knots or at 600 knots.
> 
> Speed and the G forces are the most relative item in this argument / discussion of TVC---and none of you super geniuses have brought that out---.
> 
> Let us see how much you people know about it---.



That exactly is what I was asking. 

I wonder if they ever looked into the F-15 STOL/MTD prototype, and ever wonder why the Americans never mass produced them, or modify all existing F-15s if it is that good. 
McDonnell Douglas F-15 STOL/MTD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also happen to watch an interesting documentary once. It was about dog-fighting between USAF F-15Es and Luftwaffe MiG-29s. Results did suggest that the MiG-29 is better in *certain* respects. One of them is maneuverability. 

Now given that those Russian jets are undoubtedly superior than American ones in that category, why go further? Is there any need? It's overkill if you ask me. 

In fact, American engineers and designers nowadays don't put too much emphasis on things like maneuverability, speed, fancy moves and the like. 

The cobra maneuver is a good tactic. But use it at the wrong time, they are dead meat. 

And here we are talking about the world's largest fighter. And oh, it's a two-seater...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## arp2041

Loki said:


> That exactly is what I was asking.
> 
> I wonder if they ever looked into the F-15 STOL/MTD prototype, and ever wonder why the Americans never mass produced them, or modify all existing F-15s if it is that good.
> McDonnell Douglas F-15 STOL/MTD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I also happen to watch an interesting documentary once. It was about dog-fighting between USAF F-15Es and Luftwaffe MiG-29s. Results did suggest that the MiG-29 is better in *certain* respects. One of them is maneuverability.
> 
> Now given that those Russian jets are undoubtedly superior than American ones in that category, why go further? Is there any need? It's overkill if you ask me.
> 
> In fact, American engineers and designers nowadays don't put too much emphasis on things like maneuverability, speed, fancy moves and the like.
> 
> The cobra maneuver is a good tactic. But use it at the wrong time, they are dead meat.
> 
> And here we are talking about the world's largest fighter. And oh, it's a two-seater...



What TVC does is that it helps an aircraft in performing maneuvers which are otherwise not possible, in fact there are very few 4th gen ac which have this capability even the F-15 u mentioned doesn't have the same, thus to overcome this negative in American jets US developed F-22 which has 2D-TVC capability & F-35 is it's watered down version b'coz it doesn't have a TVC capability as well as super-cruise capability as of now. Plus even Dassault is in process of developing a thrust vectoring variant of the Snecma M88 engine designated as M88-3D, i don't know if it is developed or not till now.

Now u can see if it was of no use than why the Americans & French are developing a TVC capability on there jets.


----------



## Pfpilot

danger007 said:


> @Oscar, so your mean is TVC have no advantage but holds disadvantage. well i wonder Russian air force pilots and their engineer don't get your simple logic?



It is worth remembering that the Russian aeronautical industry is foremost in the business of selling aircraft internationally, as the domestic market has all but died. While the Russian developments trace their lineage back to the Soviets, this isn't the Red Air force of old. The Americans and increasingly the Chinese developments in the military realm are meant to create tactical advantages and mismatches. Aircraft they develop are envisioned to protect strategic assets and project power as opposed to eye candy for elected officials. And while the Soviets were of the same ilk, modern Russian military industry has far more in common with the French and British, in that they look for advantages that would propel their offering above their competitors in the export market. Much like car manufacturers offer bells and whistles that serve little practical purpose, for no other reason than to provide more options than their counterparts, Sukhois and Migs have been repeatedly updated with features that providing incrementally smaller advantages. 

TVC is the poster child of the Russian sales pitch. In the end, they can't compete in the realm of electronics, can't match the ease of maintenance, or the man-machine interface, so why would any nation buy their aircraft? Why, super maneuverability, of course. TVC may have advantages, but it is worth noting that the f-15s, f-16s, and f-18s were all tested with TVC engines and not one production aircraft was ever seen with it. Neither were the yf-23, x-32, or x-35 developed with TVC in mind; it tells one all he/she wants to know about the American opinion of thrust vectoring. The f-22 may have TVC, but were it developed today, there is a great chance the feature would have been eliminated for the simple reason: you can't out turn a 45-60g high off boresight missile.

Much like Dassault marketed the Spectre system as the second coming of Christ, himself; Sukhoi too will continue to sell every new development as a game changer, as their survival depends on it. The MKI is a great aircraft with some genuine advantages, but using TVC as one, sells it short.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Safriz

danger007 said:


> @Oscar, so your mean is TVC have no advantage but holds disadvantage. well i wonder Russian air force pilots and their engineer don't get your simple logic?


Typhoon has no thrust vectoring,and still one of the best out there...


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Safriz said:


> Typhoon has no thrust vectoring,and still one of the best out there...




Thrust Vectoring Control allows the
nozzle on the engine to be deflected
to enhance the agility of the fighter.
With 3D TVC the nozzles are able to
move up, down, left and right or a
combination e.g. up and left.
No partner nation has expressed an
interested in having TVC. Eurojet, the
consortium of companies that
produces the engines for Typhoon, is
hoping to attract support for TVC by
concentrating on the benefits
provided above the enhanced agility.
Eurojet has said TVC would decrease
fuel burn, increase the life of hot
running components and reduce take
off distance (particularly useful in
hot and high environments).
Eurofighter Typhoon Guide « Articles « Fast Air Photography


----------



## The Deterrent

Safriz said:


> Typhoon has no thrust vectoring,and still one of the best out there...




It is Typhoon's 3D TVC which allows for the super maneuverability of the aircraft!


----------



## Zabaniyah

AhaseebA said:


> It is Typhoon's 3D TVC which allows for the super maneuverability of the aircraft!



Not yet implemented, but there are plans to:
Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Safriz

AhaseebA said:


> It is Typhoon's 3D TVC which allows for the super maneuverability of the aircraft!



No sir,i seen typhoons up close many times..no evidence of TVC was found...

Here is ej-200 clicked by me myself.....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Donatello

Gentlemen,

You simply don't reply to Storm Force's repeated troll posts.


----------



## bloo

Pfpilot said:


> It is worth remembering that the Russian aeronautical industry is foremost in the business of selling aircraft internationally, *as the domestic market has all but died*. While the Russian developments trace their lineage back to the Soviets, this isn't the Red Air force of old. The Americans and increasingly the Chinese developments in the military realm are meant to create tactical advantages and mismatches. Aircraft they develop are envisioned to protect strategic assets and project power as opposed to eye candy for elected officials. And while the Soviets were of the same ilk, modern Russian military industry has far more in common with the French and British, in that they look for advantages that would propel their offering above their competitors in the export market. Much like car manufacturers offer bells and whistles that serve little practical purpose, for no other reason than to provide more options than their counterparts, Sukhois and Migs have been repeatedly updated with features that providing incrementally *smaller advantages*.
> 
> TVC is the poster child of the Russian sales pitch. In the end, they can't compete in the realm of electronics, can't match the ease of maintenance, or the man-machine interface, so why would any nation buy their aircraft? Why, super maneuverability, of course. TVC may have advantages, but it is worth noting that the f-15s, f-16s, and f-18s were all tested with TVC engines and not one production aircraft was ever seen with it. Neither were the yf-23, x-32, or x-35 developed with TVC in mind; it tells one all he/she wants to know about the American opinion of thrust vectoring. The f-22 may have TVC, but were it developed today, there is a great chance the feature would have been eliminated for the simple reason: *you can't out turn a 45-60g high off boresight missile.*
> 
> Much like Dassault marketed the Spectre system as the second coming of Christ, himself; Sukhoi too will continue to sell every new development as a game changer, as their survival depends on it. The MKI is a great aircraft with some genuine advantages, but using TVC as one, sells it short.




I wouldn't say died maybe slowed down and not on par with USAF like in the olden days yet still hanging on, plus lets not forget that they are still the second largest airforce around and a decent economy to boot. 

Sometimes the little changes may seem insignificant but as they say "Many small make a great".

And let us not forget that SU-30MKI is not completely Russian(Indian,French & Israeli) though most of it is.

Air combat maneuvering out of the TVC may have birthed skeptics but let's also take into account that TVC is a system that is more than just Pugachev's Cobras and out maneuvering your opponent.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/88686main_H-2402.pdf
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFullText/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-051///MP-051-PSF-11.pdf

Besides its not like it'll be just the MKI's against the "opponent airforce", there'll be a barrage of Migs, Mirages, Rafales, Tejass, Phalcons, SIGNT/COMINT planes all doing specific tasks to achieve the desired objectives.

Of course you can't outrun a HOBS missile but what you can do is have a better radar and jamming abilities, have passive detection, have data linking features, have multiple types of missiles(IR,radar, electro-optical, long range cruise missiles and AtGMs) and gang up on your target/s with multiple MKIs.
And maybe just maybe chaffs, flares and a little more air-combat maneuvering may actually fool the missile.

I may seem a little bit too optimistic but hey that's what my signature says.

"HOPE FOR THE BEST, 
PREPARE FOR THE WORST"


----------



## Windjammer

This thread has gone way past it's shelf life, apart from the usual stick measuring, there's nothing worth discussing.

Just like to add, during one of the Red Flag exercise, couple of RAF Jaguars stunned US F-15 Eagles....all due to the element of surprise. 
As for India/Pakistan scenario, obviously all the capabilities are not revealed by both sides and Oscar will probably crucify me for disclosing this.....as far as back in 2007, PAF modified one of it's aircraft to such effect that they conducted a five minute flight over DMZ....and the Indians remained totally oblivious to it's presence. !! MKI is indeed a superb fighter but it certainly is not cause of any headache to PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

Loki said:


> That exactly is what I was asking.
> 
> I wonder if they ever looked into the F-15 STOL/MTD prototype, and ever wonder why the Americans never mass produced them, or modify all existing F-15s if it is that good.
> McDonnell Douglas F-15 STOL/MTD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I also happen to watch an interesting documentary once. It was about dog-fighting between USAF F-15Es and Luftwaffe MiG-29s. Results did suggest that the MiG-29 is better in *certain* respects. One of them is maneuverability.
> 
> Now given that those Russian jets are undoubtedly superior than American ones in that category, why go further? Is there any need? It's overkill if you ask me.
> 
> In fact, American engineers and designers nowadays don't put too much emphasis on things like maneuverability, speed, fancy moves and the like.
> 
> The cobra maneuver is a good tactic. But use it at the wrong time, they are dead meat.
> 
> And here we are talking about the world's largest fighter. And oh, it's a two-seater...



And I wonder why most 5th Gen fighters including the F-22A raptor, Su-T50 PAKFA, Chengdu J-20 all have the TVC ?.. It shoots beyond my head that TVC is so bad to have and unworthy and the engineers in Russia, US and China aren't as smart as a few Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who would've hardly seen a TVC action live.

TVC is not just about cobra.






May be the person doing 200+ hrs per annually, eating and shitting in the cockpit and being paid for would know how and when to use a cobra better than you.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstarIN

Windjammer said:


> This thread has gone way past it's shelf life, apart from the usual stick measuring, there's nothing worth discussing.
> 
> Just like to add, during one of the Red Flag exercise, couple of RAF Jaguars stunned US F-15 Eagles....all due to the element of surprise.
> As for India/Pakistan scenario, obviously all the capabilities are not revealed by both sides and Oscar will probably crucify me for disclosing this.....as far as back in 2007, PAF modified one of it's aircraft to such effect that they conducted a five minute flight over DMZ....and the Indians remained totally oblivious to it's presence. !! MKI is indeed a superb fighter but it certainly is not cause of any headache to PAF.



A 5 minute flight over DMZ and how do you measure our thinking or knowing the presence?


----------



## Windjammer

rockstar said:


> A 5 minute flight over DMZ and how do you measure our thinking or knowing the presence?



If you pick up an unidentified aircraft heading closely towards your border, the idea is to scramble your fighter jets, just in case there is an intrusion. In any case. !!


----------



## MilSpec

Windjammer said:


> This thread has gone way past it's shelf life, apart from the usual stick measuring, there's nothing worth discussing.
> 
> Just like to add, during one of the Red Flag exercise, couple of RAF Jaguars stunned US F-15 Eagles....all due to the element of surprise.
> As for India/Pakistan scenario, obviously all the capabilities are not revealed by both sides and Oscar will probably crucify me for disclosing this.....as far as back in 2007, PAF modified one of it's aircraft to such effect that they conducted a five minute flight over DMZ....and the Indians remained totally oblivious to it's presence. !! MKI is indeed a superb fighter but it certainly is not cause of any headache to PAF.



Which plane?


----------



## Windjammer

sandy_3126 said:


> Which plane?



Dude, as much as i would like to, i rather not disclose.....let Oscar return from his Oh La La break, then if appropriate, he can tell you the works. !!


----------



## Donatello

rockstar said:


> A 5 minute flight over DMZ and how do you measure our thinking or knowing the presence?



5 minutes in a pre-emptive strike plan is like a lifetime! In Indo-Pak scenario where a lot of bases are close to the border, it will make a huge difference.

Now if you want to shrug it off as insignificant because it was done by Pakistan and not India, then it's your call. No one would give a shyt.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## FaisalRehman

Yes we can. We can beat by:

1. Next Generation JF thunder + F16. Because it has Combat Edge and does not have problem of breathing in high G-force environments but there is such problem in F22 and Su-30MKI which will distract indian pilot. They will have breathing problem like putting a corset around your chest. 

2. Pakistan's Surface-to-air missile systems

3.Buying Chengdu J-20 from China.


----------



## Mujraparty

sandy_3126 said:


> Which plane?




obviously this ...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

eowyn said:


> obviously this ...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Musalman

Pakistan should counter the MKI's the same way they are countering our AWACS. Destroy them on ground. Let Lashkar i Taiba do the work


----------



## Storm Force

JF17 in its current GUISE is no answer to the SU30MKI 

The JFT prgramme director confessed the JFT is low end 4th gen fighter and its maturity is 4 years away minimum. 

TODAY that leaves nothing but the SMALL FLEET OF F16s (63 planes) and only one single squdron ie 18 are really new lock 52s

Generally you could bank on these 3 sdqs or is 4 sqds putting up a defense BUT the nagging threat of USA sanctions takes away the edge on these fighters. 

USA will not give you spares in a war scenario.

I AM SURPRISED that PAF have not yet made a move for J10 and it can only be FINANCIAL LIMITATIONS as the IAF fleet of MKI is growing rapidly ... infact by June 2013 there will be 9-10 squdrons of MKI in service


----------



## Windjammer

Storm Force said:


> JF17 in its current GUISE is no answer to the SU30MKI
> 
> The JFT prgramme director confessed the JFT is low end 4th gen fighter and its maturity is 4 years away minimum.
> 
> TODAY that leaves nothing but the SMALL FLEET OF F16s (63 planes) and only one single squdron ie 18 are really new lock 52s
> 
> Generally you could bank on these 3 sdqs or is 4 sqds putting up a defense BUT the nagging threat of USA sanctions takes away the edge on these fighters.
> 
> USA will not give you spares in a war scenario.
> 
> I AM SURPRISED that PAF have not yet made a move for J10 and it can only be FINANCIAL LIMITATIONS as the IAF fleet of MKI is growing rapidly ... infact by June 2013 there will be 9-10 squdrons of MKI in service


Yes you should be surprised that PAF is not really bothered about the MKI unlike how India was running around like headless chicken after Pakistan received it's initial F-16s......you are implying as if the MKI is going to fight all of India's battles., likewise the JF-17 will have it's own role and will not be the sole platform in any future war. The Indian/Pakistan scenario is not exactly an Arab/Israeli comparison, in fact history proves that in past conflicts, PAF held more than it's own and don't forget that during both conflicts, 1971 1999 and 2002 stand off, PAF was under sanctions. !!!


----------



## Ammyy

Currently they have nothing to counter MKIs in one to one combat


----------



## DARKY

Windjammer said:


> Yes you should be surprised that *PAF is not really bothered about the MKI* unlike how India was running around like headless chicken after Pakistan received it's initial F-16s......you are implying as if the MKI is going to fight all of India's battles., likewise the JF-17 will have it's own role and will not be the sole platform in any future war. The Indian/Pakistan scenario is not exactly an Arab/Israeli comparison, in fact history proves that in past conflicts, PAF held more than it's own and don't forget that during both conflicts, 1971 1999 and 2002 stand off, PAF was under sanctions. !!!



If PAF is not worried about Su 30MKI then they are stupid.

A fleet more than the size of the entire PAF air-air combat strength and growing at much faster rate than the entire PAF both in Quantity and Quality.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

DARKY said:


> If PAF is not worried about Su 30MKI then they are stupid.
> 
> A fleet more than the size of the entire PAF air-air combat strength and growing at much faster rate than the entire PAF both in Quantity and Quality.



Actually it's the Indians who are living in a nod land thinking that MKI is the best thing since Masala Dosa, but in an India/Pakistan scenario, the likes of Mirage-2000 will play a better part than the Flanker.....and believe me these aren't PAF's words. !!!



DRDO said:


> Currently they have nothing to counter MKIs in one to one combat



May you sleep on that.....for ever.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ajaxpaul

Musalman said:


> Pakistan should counter the MKI's the same way they are countering our AWACS. Destroy them on ground. Let Lashkar i Taiba do the work



So it was a practice run in Pakistan for LET..... 

LET countering MKI. ..must have hit rock bottom with regards to strategy .


----------



## Srinivas

Windjammer said:


> Dude, as much as i would like to, i rather not disclose.....let Oscar return from his Oh La La break, then if appropriate, he can tell you the works. !!



Indians would have thought let those Pakistanis who are conducting those test trials believe that they ahve actually deceived us. In real time war scenario you will know the truth.

Every body have their own surprises and every body have their own trump cards the chest thumping you did in the previous posts in not worth.

SU 30 MKI is a heavy weight in the skies with omni role capabilities, This thread needs to be alive since the evolution of this wonderful machine has not stopped.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DARKY

Windjammer said:


> Actually it's the Indians who are living in a nod land thinking that MKI is the best thing since Masala Dosa, but in an India/Pakistan scenario, the likes of Mirage-2000 will play a better part than the Flanker.....and believe me these aren't PAF's words. !!!



I take your words.. since Mirages and Mig 29s would play a lead role in any indo-pak conflict... more than the Su30 which perhaps would be used in support roles and to conduct strikes by taking a loop around the Arabian sea.

About Indians pumping about Su30... Its same as people in Pakistan or Pakistanis feel about JF-17... but both are for different roles.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Windjammer

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Indians would have thought let those Pakistanis who are conducting those test trials believe that they ahve actually deceived us. In real time war scenario you will know the truth.
> 
> Every body have their own surprises and every body have their own trump cards the chest thumping you did in the previous posts in not worth.
> 
> SU 30 MKI is a heavy weight in the skies with omni role capabilities, This thread needs to be alive since the evolution of this wonderful machine has not stopped.



As if Indians knew what experiment PAF was conducting.....indeed chest thumping much. !!


----------



## flightlieutenantshikari

Su-30 MKI is an extremely potent platform,but just like any man made object has its own defects too!


----------



## Srinivas

Windjammer said:


> As if Indians knew what experiment PAF was conducting.....indeed chest thumping much. !!



That will be known once PAF and IAF will fight in the skies


----------



## Ammyy

Windjammer said:


> May you sleep on that.....for ever.



 Yes I can sleep without any fear.... My forces are not inducting incapable fighters

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Johny D

Windjammer said:


> As if Indians knew what experiment PAF was conducting.....indeed chest thumping much. !!



mullah ki daud majjid tak and pakistan ki daud china tak...so we know how far u can go!!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstarIN

Donatello said:


> 5 minutes in a pre-emptive strike plan is like a lifetime! In Indo-Pak scenario where a lot of bases are close to the border, it will make a huge difference.
> 
> Now if you want to shrug it off as insignificant because it was done by Pakistan and not India, then it's your call. No one would give a shyt.



Such shabby claims can be made by anybody, I can say that..ohh we have veil in the name of LCA and AMCA is already on final stage of integration and running frequently DMZ. I have my uncle's so and so at IAF and bla bla. Nobody gave shyt either u or me. 

Just chest thumping, everybody have surprises and 'counter-surprises'



Windjammer said:


> If you pick up an unidentified aircraft heading closely towards your border, the idea is to scramble your fighter jets, just in case there is an intrusion. In any case. !!



Well, not really when a country have very good anti aircraft missile systems. 

There is a surprise there for you.


----------



## JF_17_Thunder

Need is the mother of invention....
we will surely come up with something.... let the time come


----------



## SQ8

Ive been trying to post on this thread for the past two days but def.pk's bugs are stupid.. 
Gave up finally.

Such nice research.. all pointless to see an error.


----------



## indiatester

Oscar said:


> Ive been trying to post on this thread for the past two days but def.pk's bugs are stupid..
> Gave up finally.
> 
> Such nice research.. all pointless to see an error.



Can you post a bit about the 5 minute aircraft test by PAF in DMZ.


----------



## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Ive been trying to post on this thread for the past two days but def.pk's bugs are stupid..
> Gave up finally.
> 
> Such nice research.. all pointless to see an error.



We are still listening..!!


----------



## Windjammer

DRDO said:


> Yes I can sleep without any fear.... My forces are not inducting incapable fighters



Care to elaborate, which one of your fighters has any noteworthy combat experience. !!
The subject (MKI/Flanker) has not even been bloodied in the battle yet.....even the likes of MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 don't exactly have a feather in their cap




JD_In said:


> mullah ki daud majjid tak and pakistan ki daud china tak...so we know how far u can go!!!!



Better than yous running like a headless Chicken in every direction feeling insecure. !!


----------



## SQ8

bloo said:


> Oh sure, trolling in front of your retired buddies(Daedalians) and posting that on youtube, is soooo professional.
> And of course the news of the 'good' colonel's indiscretions automatically makes the Indian media liars.
> Let me tell you sir a TRUE post exercise or a post mission briefing would never be televised or recorded for the general public.
> 
> And of course "praising"(condescending) the MKI will surely make all his over the top wrong claims right.Sir truth is not relative but absolute.
> 
> There is also a transcript if you wanna judge for yourself how right he was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I quoted was not from the manufacturer but the "30th Central Scientific Research Institute, Russian Ministry of Defence" which has now merged with the MoD RF 4 CRI.
> 
> If there is anyone that'll know about real time tactics assessment it is them.
> 
> Their tasks are as follows:
> - Threat assessment and forecasting.
> - Defining operational and technical requirements.
> - Monitoring defence industry progress on the Russian Air Force acquisitions.
> - Performance evaluations of the newly developed aerospace technologies and complexes.
> 
> The most common possible logic is that it comes from them and I will bet you on their word as they are directly related to the development of warfighting skills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by where is the recovery?
> When the angle of attack exceeds its critical value the plane automatically enters stall. And now the post stall begins where the recovery takes place.
> When the air flow is disrupted or flow separation that is at the critical angle of attack the separated flow is so powerful that further increases in AoA results in less lift and more drag after which the TVC along side other necessary control surfaces take over.
> Disrupted airflow basically means flow separation and nothing more.
> The fly-by-wire as we know manipulates the control surfaces along side the thrust vectored engine nozzles without the pilots input during the post stall.
> 
> "EXCEEDING the AOA" does not mean the MKI is flying beyond the AoA that is impossible. It basically means that it has reached the critical value of its AoA and thus is recovering in the post stall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SIRJI what he is recovering from is the stall, post stall does not automatically mean you are falling. True it results to a fall in height as that is what we have learnt from the olden days but those were olden planes and MKI is no olden plane.
> TVC prevents this fall that is if the maneuver is performed right.
> The thrust from the engine is applying an appropriate force that is why we see a 'hang time', therefore NO he is not falling from the sky.
> It looks like its defying the laws of motion coz in this case the object itself is applying asymmetrical force.
> 
> You do understand what happens in a post stall?
> In a post stall control surfaces like ailerons and elevators don't work thus the use of thrust vectoring. I hope you have atleast heard of the term "post-stall technologies".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no no no don't delude yourself into assuming that that is what we think, you yourself are thinking that the MKI is a "magic plane".
> What we believe is that TVC can kick some major @@s and although it can't stay as long as per your standards as it does not have "magic", it can stay longer than its opponents.
> you just explained TVC and yet you won't except it outcomes.
> I'll show u after just a bit, the advantages of the AoA provided by the TVC and how it is necessary in air combat.
> 
> And of course the Indian pilot is not considered as an expert so we happily breeze past his claims after all the "good" colonel's words are set in stone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so do tell what advantage does non TVC planes have in the 5v5s that TVC planes don't?
> No one claims that TVC can help dodge any missile or that it will be used in literally every phase of the flight or that it can negate everything.
> TVC is only 1 aspect of the plane, its the complete plane that we brag about.
> If you really wanna go there then the MKI again has quite an advantage with 2 radars more than enough for off-boresight detection and 1 IRST probe for passive detection, 12-14 hardpoints thus can carry more armaments, data linking with other MKIs, et cetra.
> But that's a whole another thing.
> 
> When you are considering ACEVAL or AIMVAL the very implication of a TVC is to be considered lest what's the purpose of reading a paper on air-combat maneuvering when you are judging a pure vectoring fighter or a supermaneuverable TVC fighter by evaluations done on conventional fighters?
> 
> And please what is with you continuously attacking Kopp? I am not even basing my statements on any of his claims.
> His resume itself will be enough to frighten both of ours combined so his words do carry weight regardless of your prejudices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So this basically translates to the fact that modern aerial warfare won't exactly involve too much dog-fighting(or it could depends on the parameters) however when it does the TVC plane will have an edge most of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sirji you too have posted your arguments based on copy pasted knowledge,of course you'll find a difference between the question and answer if you are willing to put a double standard on ur arguments and not do the same for my rebuttals.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see why some people will incessantly try to show that the TVC is of no use when almost all the powerful AF's(Your beloved PLAAF included) are continuously opting for it, when 6th gen fighters are based completely on TVC and when there is underlying proof of how well it has performed and is performing.



One last try to post this..and then I give up.

1. The video was not posted by him, but by a daedalien.. Id take trolling by an experienced colonel who heads requirements and testing at Nellis over any ridiculed electrical engineer anyday.

2. He states nothing that is overly incorrect, as he was at nellis.. he is probably just stating what he heard at mountain home AFB. 
You have already made a big boo boo by making this statement. 


> post stall does not automatically mean you are falling. True it results to a fall in height as that is what we have learnt from the olden days but those were olden planes and MKI is no olden plane.



The idea of stalling applies to the wright flyer and the F-22 equally.
Lift as per bernoullis principle depends on the difference in pressure(or the force) exerted by the particles of the fluid(air) that move at differing speeds on the surface(wing). Hence the air that moves on the top of wings is moving faster and the one below it moving slower which results in the force from the bottom airflow having a greater push that we call lift.

Now when you disrupt the airflow, the difference in pressure reduces and hence lift.. and aircraft fly on lift.
The difference between aircraft like the MKI and the wright flyer comes in the excess thrust that allows the aircraft to quickly regain speed(which is why you will always see the Cobra flown without AB and at lower speeds) and continue flying.
Another thing, the reason why the Cobra is effective on aircraft such as the MKI , The Draken and a few others is that the downwash from their LERX is still active and provides control authority even at angles of attack reaching 110 degrees.

Now how is that useful in combat? Well, the Cobra's ability to drop airspeed quickly or basically using the aircraft as a giant airbrake was first thought up by the father of modern air combat John Boyd. He used the technique on pilots by letting them close enough and then pulling up rapidly.. keeping the rudder straight ..he was able to do this in a F-100 super sabre in a maneuver known as "flat plating the bird". everytime the other pilots overshot him, and got shot down.

However, when these pilots tried the same trick on boyd.. he would never get close enough and simply pull up when he saw the maneuver being executed .. come down.. and give them nice gun-camera shots of their heads.

...to be continued on why TVC specifically is not useful for WVR in multiple aircraft engagements anymore..and why the MKI unique TVC actually ends up being a disadvantage. 

Currently off to Oxford street.. will return and post more.



danger007 said:


> @Oscar, so your mean is TVC have no advantage but holds disadvantage. well i wonder Russian air force pilots and their engineer don't get your simple logic?



No, I mean that TVC holds no quantifiable advantage anymore in multiple WVR engagements due to the advancement in missile technology and reliability.

TVC still had advantages.. in the uses that the US and the Europeans recognize and are applying it.
Not for the reasons the Russians think it does.

And yes, I think they are over doing it as it helps to sell the idea to eager beavers like the Indian MoD.
Which is why a non-noob force hits its head when it gets something like the MKI with TVC as it realizes that it does not need the capabilty on what is already an effective platform.
Hence you wont even HAVE an airshow where the IAF is seen displaying it. Because actual pilots that have *flying to fight* on their minds know better.

to be continued...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Storm Force

Windjammer

The argument that SU30MKI Mirage2000 & mig29 have no feathers in their cap is a NOTHING REMARK.

NOTHING because you could use this excuse for F22 RAPTOR, TYPHOON OR J10 or EVEN JFT ... 

The fact the FLANKER is the best selling RUSSIAN FIGHTER IN SERVICE worldwide and a FRONTLINER with PLAAF should give you enough evidence of what the WORLDS TOP AIR FORCES think.

What makes MKI even more dangerous is the WORLD CLASS TVC engine as discussed AND the ultra reliable and battle proven ISRAELI SUPPLIED jammers... and french avionics.

As for mirage 2000 its a concept in air warefare trusted by the FRENCH and the PAF for over 50 years and that is good enough for indians. 

THE QUESTIONS REMAINS ??????????????????

How to counter the SU30MKI effectively/REALISTCALLY. ( realistcally meaning with a good chance of success)

One thing i can safekly say now 

JFT in its current guise (infant mk1 stage) is totally outgunned, outclassed in every way over the MKI 

only the F16 WIL COME CLOSE but you dont have enough in nos !!!!!


----------



## Storm Force

by the way windjammer 

i agree SU30MKI is not a unbeatable fighter 

i can count half a dozen fighters that would beat the FLANKER MKI some mercilessly . These are 

F22 raptor, F15 F18 & F16 AESA equipped & Typhoon & rafale .

NOW which one of those is PAF MOST likely to acquire ????? 

I THINK YOU GET MY POINT

IN THE INDO PAK scenario the SU30MKI is the RAPTOR OF south asia. Nothing in PAF other than 18 block 52S COME CLOSE

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hobo1

At time of 65 and 71 war , IAF used fighter like Hunters and su-7s etc to attack deep inside into pakistan, and these attacks were quite successful and point to be noted was these fighters were hardly any match for PAF's main stay figher F86s.
IAF did not use fighters like Gnat and Mig21s(only fighters capable enough to take on F86) to attack deep inside Pakistan .probably reason may have been these fighters were two short legged for these kind of missions.

Now when IAF could show such good results without even using their best, then it is quite evident that with MKIs IAF can very easily beat PAF in own backward.

*Oscar and Windjammer still waiting for that 5 minutes of DMZ flight masala.*


----------



## nomi007

this is the ansar


----------



## Storm Force

nomi007.

It would be great addition and a worthy opponent FOR MKI

SADLY FOR PAF you guys cant stretch to inducting both 200 JFT and adding J10/FC20 at the same time.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY TODAY there are no J10s in PAF SERVICE you guys hav e laid your stal on the lowe cost induction of large nos of JFT


----------



## Windjammer

Storm Force said:


> by the way windjammer
> 
> i agree SU30MKI is not a unbeatable fighter
> 
> i can count half a dozen fighters that would beat the FLANKER MKI some mercilessly . These are
> 
> F22 raptor, F15 F18 & F16 AESA equipped & *Typhoon* & rafale .
> 
> NOW which one of those is PAF MOST likely to acquire ?????
> 
> I THINK YOU GET MY POINT
> 
> IN THE INDO PAK scenario *the SU30MKI is the RAPTOR OF south asia*. Nothing in PAF other than 18 block 52S COME CLOSE



Mate, Indian members were adamantly refusing the tall banter that they ever claimed the MKI as the Raptor of the East.
Thank you for proving me right that anything IAF fields automatically becomes the best all else comes second. Now since you have scored own goal by admitting that amongst others, the Typhoon can slaughter the MKI, this was also decisively proven in one of Indra Danush exercises where couple of EFs made mince meat of the MKI.....now by your own admittance the EF can smoke out the MKI mercilessly and if the same Typhoon is killed by the PAF THREE times out of as many engagements, where does that put the MKI Vis-a-Vis PAF. !!! Typhoon kills the MKI and PAF slaughters the Typhoon. End of argument.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Windjammer

Hobo1 said:


> At time of 65 and 71 war , IAF used fighter like Hunters and su-7s etc to attack deep inside into pakistan, and these attacks were quite successful and point to be noted was these fighters were hardly any match for PAF's main stay figher F86s.
> IAF did not use fighters like Gnat and Mig21s(only fighters capable enough to take on F86) to attack deep inside Pakistan .probably reason may have been these fighters were two short legged for these kind of missions.
> 
> Now when IAF could show such good results without even using their best, then it is quite evident that with MKIs IAF can very easily beat PAF in own backward.
> 
> *Oscar and Windjammer still waiting for that 5 minutes of DMZ flight masala.*



Don't worry in due time you will get double serving of Masala.....in the mean time why don't you chew on this chilli pepper.
BTW, you seem a complete noob in the knowledge on your country's air arm or cherry picking is habitual for you.
Apart from SU-7s, Hunters, MiG-21s, the IAF also fielded the Gnats, Mysteryes and HF-24s......in any case, the following story involves your mighty Gnat, which even over it's own airfield didn't feel safe from the PAF. !!











_Now this is what's called psychological hold.  _

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## Srinivas

@Windjammer this thread is about countering the beast Sukhoi 30MKI for which Pakistan has no answer in the last decade and now with the arrival of Rafale the combination of Su 30 MKI and Rafale will become even more potent.

*As usual chest thumping some stray incidents of the lost war in 1971 and Pakistani defense day celebrations in 1965*


----------



## Windjammer

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> @Windjammer this thread is about countering the beast Sukhoi 30MKI for which Pakistan has no answer in the last decade and now with the arrival of Rafale the combination of Su 30 MKI and Rafale will become even more potent.
> 
> *As usual chest thumping some stray incidents of the lost war in 1971 and Pakistani defense day celebrations in 1965*



Sometimes it helps to read what the argument is AT HAND before pressing the reply button.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## karan.1970

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> @Windjammer this thread is about countering the beast Sukhoi 30MKI for which Pakistan has no answer in the last decade and now with the arrival of Rafale the combination of Su 30 MKI and Rafale will become even more potent.
> 
> *As usual chest thumping some stray incidents of the lost war in 1971 and Pakistani defense day celebrations in 1965*



Dont take that away from him. Even in a lost match, the losing side has the right to boast about a good play

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Jako

Typhoon is still weaker than mki in WVR coz of the tvc factor, typhoon only has a chance in bvr. And here our friend windjammer like a typical fanboy compared mki with f16s when actually there are no news on paf regarding bvr. Mki>ef in wvr. So f16>ef in wvr proves **** asusual.


----------



## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> Dont take that away from him. Even in a lost match, the losing side has the right to boast about a good play




As far as air war was concerned, it was g match....but then there are those who can't differentiate between battles and wars. !!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Windjammer

Jako said:


> Typhoon is still weaker than mki in WVR coz of the tvc factor, typhoon only has a chance in bvr. And here our friend windjammer like a typical fanboy compared mki with f16s when actually there are no news on paf regarding bvr. Mki>ef in wvr. So f16>ef in wvr proves **** asusual.



Fan boy indeed, they don't come any bigger than you.....let me know if you ever get to read about the one vis one between the MKI and EF, until then continue with your chest thumping.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

Windjammer

Pointless using Typhoon v MKI scenarios. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE PAF response to su30mki NOT the RAF

also windjammer 

Dont read too much into excercises indian MIG21 bisons caught F15 OVER india in 2009... Does not mean a thing.

EVERYBODY KNOWS IN FULL BLOWN WAR MKI will be using full combat radar jammers and ew suites and wil not be worried about USA or french fighters stealing codes whilst in war games or be subject to limited simulation instructions. 

BACK TO QUESTION 

PAFs COUNTERING SU30MKI


----------



## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> As far as air war was concerned, it was g match....but then there are those who can't differentiate between battles and wars. !!



c'mon dude, for once i supported you....


----------



## SQ8

Continuing on the post..

TVC usage in combat was first advocated by Dr Wolfgang Herbst who was one of the initial pioneers of Post-stall maneuvering.
He was also a driving force in the X-31 program. Aircraft like the X-31 and F-18 HARV would achieve extremely high ratios of kills against conventional aircraft. 
When these results were applied to computer simulations based on AIMVAL however, it was found that the kill ratio's dropped significantly as the number of aircraft increased in a scenario. When the same systems were tested with the in-developed Aim-9x and JHCMS.. the advantage dropped to zero.

If you have issues with the colonel's testimony..
here is one from a test pilot associated with the F-16 thrust vectoring program..called the F-16 MATV.
These programs were not conducted for showing off at airshows like the Russians do, but for actual practicality. And were done MUCH before the Russians came up with it, but show-offs attract fan boys and non-serious people which gets attention.


this is the interview and a brief CV of his from the site F-16.net



> Major Henderson grew up in Oregon where he attended Oregon State University and was a ROTC cadet. He went to Vance AFB for my pilot training, and started flying the F-16 in March 1985 as a "Viper Baby" - going to the jet right out of pilot training. His first assignment was at Nellis AFB flying F-16A's in the 428 TFS. He stayed there until 1988, leaving just before the wing closed down. From there he went to MacDill AFB to become a F-16 RTU instructor pilot. He transitioned to the F-16C (block 30 big mouth) in 1989 and went back to Nellis in 1990 to attend the Fighter Weapon School. Following graduation, he returned to MacDill for another two years.
> 
> 
> Major Jim 'Magic' Henderson
> In 1992 he was headed back to Nellis again for a job at the *422 Test and Evaluation Squadron*. In 1994, he moved down the street at Nellis to become an Instructor at the Weapons School. In 1995 he briefly moved to Tucson AZ to instruct at the Guard/ Reserve Weapons School. However, that school was closed 6 months later so he went back to Nellis until the end of 1995. During the first part of 1996, he was attending the Dutch language school in Monterey CA, in preparation for his exchange assignment to Holland. He arrived in Holland July of last year and is currently assigned to the 323 TACTESS in Leeuwarden, where he is an instructor pilot for the FWIT and part of the MLU test team.
> 
> *Interviewer*: Do you have particularly fond memories of a specific deployment or exercise?
> 
> *Maj. Henderson:* The most memorable and enjoyable period during my time in the Viper was a two week TDY to Edwards AFB in November of 1993. While assigned to the 422 Test Squadron, I was the Program Manager for the Tactical Evaluation of the MATV aircraft. That was the F-16 that had the thrust vectoring nozzle installed. Me and a buddy (Jayboy Pearsall) got in on the ground floor of the development of the jet. The sole reason for it's development was to see what sort of tactical advantages this new technology would give it in close in combat. We were able to decide how and what we wanted to do with the jet to answer that question. Up to that point in time, most of the research on thrust vectoring had been done in simulators. We would get to be the first to try out all of the theories, in a real operational jet. After a good portion of the year was spent on planning we headed out to Edwards to get checked out in the MATV jet. Both Jayboy and myself were checked out in it. *We also brought along a couple Vipers and pilots from Nellis to act as the bandits. For that 2 week period I either flew the MATV jet or as a bandit, twice a day. We got to do real tactical fighting against some of the best Viper drivers around in a totally new kind of jet.* I've done a lot of fun things in the Viper, but nothing has co me close to topping those two weeks.
> 
> *Interviewer*: What was your impression of the MATV?
> 
> *Maj. Henderson*: The MATV jet was a really outstanding aircraft. *It's been funny to see the fuss made over some of the maneuvers that the thrust vectoring Flanker has made at airshows over the last few years. We accomplished them all several years ago in our jet. But, since we didn't do airshows (our goal was a tactical evaluation of the technology) hardly anyone knew about it.** The funny thing is that most of those maneuvers are of very limited use in a tactical fight*. As far as the MATV jet, it was quite a difficult jet to fight. Once you got the feel for when and how to use the thrust vectoring, it was almost unbeatable in any one vs one fight. When involved in one vs two fights, it was almost an even fight. I actually felt that I had the advantage when I passed two bandits in a high aspect merge. It is a shame that all of the F-16s could not be modified with the kits.



So the people that actually test the practically of the system in Air combat testify how utterly pointless it gets in an actual tactical scenario. Sure, in the one off chance that an aircraft like the MKI goes up against a single non-TVC aircraft.. it will probably win with a 98% chance. But add more fighters, with Helmet mounted sights.. and off boresight missiles.. and that percentage drops to 50%. 

Now lets get down to how the MKI's unique TVC, which increases its maneuverability...also ends up giving it a disadvantage that is pointed out by the colonel because that is probably what he heard. But then again, some fan-boys whose ego was bruised concentrated only on his inaccuracies in determining the type of radar or engine and not on the main focus of what he said.

Aircraft like the F-22 have their TVC mounted in a vertical plane.. so when they do go post-stall.. and the airflow over their wings is being disrupted.. the line of thrust is still within the plane of motion and so generates little drag other than along that line of movement.
the MKI's TVC is canted at some 32 degrees to the horizontal(or in a V) to allow it to achieve better roll and yaw rates(as it is a BIG jet) at slower speeds. However, that V thrust remains when the nozzles deflect up or down.. and hence the thrust isnt just going along a line of motion.. i.e it is not propelling the aircraft along a single vector component in simpler terms...but in two(or more realistically).. hence the aircraft doesn't achieve the acceleration along its intended flight path as quickly as compared to say a standard Su-27 and so the air-flow does not achieve pre-stall ability as quick as say something like an F-22.
So not only does the aircraft fall out of the sky as stated... it takes longer to recover from that post-stall situation than say something line an F-22.
Hence, an advertised "capability" on the MKI has actually becomes a disadvantage in actual combat.. since adding that thrust within a fluid fight at say even 450 knots...generates greater drag as compared to something like the F-22 which is why it ends up as dead meat for a pilot that knows how to use his machine vs a pilot that does not.

Now dont get me completely anti-TVC.. it may help a lot in the MKI especially because you have two heads and the second pilot may use that chance to fire an off-boresight heater at its enemy. But that only works out in 1 vs 1, 1 vs 2 or 2 vs 2 scenario.. with the effectiveness decreasing. 
today's combat with missiles able to do this..




The advantage of maneuvering becomes a moot point.. since TVC helps you to get a tighter circle.. quicker.. you are still limited by the number of G's you can pull(yeah.. that is an actual limitation otherwise you will tear your wings off or kill your pilot). 
So somebody at 450 knots can get to a 9G turn with or without TVC at the same rate... but if he uses the TVC to go anything beyond that he is dead or his aircraft will have its wings torn off. Below that, TVC holds an advantage.. if a pilot has managed to get himself into the situation where he is low on speed (energy) then TVC will save his life IF only the other pilots wingman does not have a lock on him. Anything beyond that, is an advantage not worth having.. and anything with multiple fighters engaging in a frenzy with off-boresight missiles.. its pointless.

NOW, as to why the west may persist with TVC in the form of fluidic vectoring later on is not post-stall maneuverability.. but stealth, fuel economy and its effectiveness in supersonic maneuvering M1.5+. 
The F-22's TVC does not just give it post-stall capability.. the F-22 without TVC is still a VERY maneuverable aircraft.. 
its TVC helps in the primary field the F-22 was designed to fight and engage.. at high altitude.. and silently.
RCS is effected by even the smallest bumps and nicks.. which is why aircraft like the F-22 will always be maintenance intensive.
In flight, these aircraft employ a lot of CPU crunching power to make sure that their RCS levels are not effected too much by the deflection of ailerons and elevators. Here, TVC adds the ability to induce changes in direction by a small deflection of thrust which keeps RCS fairly constant as compared to using control surfaces but that is dependent a lot on nozzle design.
Secondly, aircraft like the F-22 and eurofighter were designed to be able to engage at high-altitudes, low pressure with long range missiles(that need both potential and kinematic energy) at high speed.
TVC allows these aircraft to maintain better maneuverability at these speed ranges as the effectiveness of control surfaces reduces and relatively larger deflections are needed(which not only generate drag but drive the RCS up). So the TVC on the F-22(and possibly the EF) will allow them to achieve maneuverability at these flight envelopes with less consumption of fuel, maintaining RCS and impart energy to their BVR shots.(which is what has the Chinese interested in it for their J-20)

Now how does this play out for the MKI??

Well, for one. the RCS advantage of the TVC is pretty pointless.. with a radar cross section that will be seen by even the crudest of 70's radars.. the TVC on the MKI holds no use for it in RCS control.

Second.. High speed kinematics and high altitude launches..
this is one advantage the MKI may have, provided it is able to exploit this scenario... possibly unlikely for the western theater but quite possible for the northern one.

Third... Fuel consumption.. here the aircraft can maintain an ideal AoA for the regimes of flight while pointing thrust in the optimum direction.. something the MKI could exploit.. had it been thought up with this in its FLCS...but most reports suggest a focus on maneuverability rather than anything else.

Lastly... STOL ability.. not sure if Ive seen any Sukhoi exploiting this.. but TV does allow for shorter landing and takeoff roles.

Now..the PAF is inducting HOBS heaters.. and IS going to engage the IAF 80% of the time(due to proximity of bases) within each others missile envelopes.. so the advantage that most of the capabilities brought in by the aircraft keeps getting reduced.
EXCEPT one.

RANGE..and TWO HEADS.
The MKI's range not only allows for it to maintain a longer loiter time, it gives it the ability to bypass Air defense areas or simply fly a long route around them to give the IAF the option to attack from multiple sides and really stress the PAF's resources.
This also means that PAF's force multipliers will be under greater threat as the IAF can use the MKI's to literally fly out of their detection range..and then fly back in into less covered sectors by interceptors to attack them.

TWO-HEADS.
In BVR engagements, sorting targets is a headache while flying.. the second pilot will be able to sort out the targets faster and employ weapons more effectively. In WVR engagements.. he may be able to employ weapons better if the fight ever goes into a turning one.. but that too will give him an advantage in certain situations. He will also be able to call out bogies and provide a situational awareness addition to the pilot.
In a strike role, the second pilot can work on the attack while the pilot concentrates on flying the aircraft and keeping the aerial threats in focus.

THESE, are the things that the PAF(and all other actual professionals and enthusiasts) keep in mind when looking at an aircraft like the MKI. They see the range and payload and how these offer tactical advantages in various scenarios.
They then see its effectivness within the system that is the IAF, and how it may be used within known and unknown tactics to their advantage, this is correlated with intel reports on the IAF to then formulate a counter strategy.

On the other side of the fence, the IAF does the same, it thinks where its strategies may be compromised.. where its actual advantages lie..and how best to employ the MKI within the IAF's joint force.


The rest, fanboys.. who are impressed by a doodle of numbers presented by the manufacturer.. or impressed by interviews of pilots published by companies(both in Russia and in the US)..or write ups by people with agendas(Wheeler, Kopp etc)..may continue to copy off write ups by single people.. and take a single PoV because they are too darn lazy to do some actual research.

Cheers.

P.S.. not following the 5 min DMZ whatever..??

Reactions: Like Like:
13


----------



## Storm Force

American F16 VIPER PILOT assessment on SU30MKI V F16/52/60

Latest version of the F-16 Vs. SU-30MKI/SU-30K :: F-16.net

I think the pilot knows far more than me & you

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

FOR ME THE BEST OPTION FOR PAF WAS 150+ F16 C/D/52 for tackling the su30 mki threat. 

Political reasons PAF may feel this numbers of falcons maybe difficult at present.

IN WHICH CASE THE J10/FC20 has to be the answer meduim term 

THE J10/FC20 is the closest fighter in size TWR and performance to a F16/52/f16/60 ...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SQ8

Storm Force said:


> American F16 VIPER PILOT assessment on SU30MKI V F16/52/60
> 
> Latest version of the F-16 Vs. SU-30MKI/SU-30K :: F-16.net
> 
> I think the pilot knows far more than me & you





> Oh yeah, one more thing to remember is that the Su-30 is a two seater so it has an inherehnt advantoge over a single seater in having someone who gets to dedicate his/her attention to the instuments at BVR and then is a second set of eyeballs WVR. The Navy if ordering a lot more F model Hornets than planned for this same reason. I believe this is also why MOST export Eagles are 2 seaters.



Is the most important factor to consider.. in the 1 vs many scenario.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> FOR ME THE BEST OPTION FOR PAF WAS 150+ F16 C/D/52 for tackling the su30 mki threat.
> 
> Political reasons PAF may feel this numbers of falcons maybe difficult at present.
> 
> IN WHICH CASE THE J10/FC20 has to be the answer meduim term
> 
> THE J10/FC20 is the closest fighter in size TWR and performance to a F16/52/f16/60 ...



With the upcoming AESA on J-10, and continued development of the FC20/J10 program, it is destined to be better than F-16 in Long term.

F-16 is 1960s-1980s tech. J-10 is evolving on that, but at a faster pace as it does not need to reinvent the wheel.

PAF with it's current budget wont go for a big twin engine plane like the J-11/SU27s, hence it only leaves one option, J10.

Maybe J-31, but lets see. The most important thing is, by the end of 2014 PAF should 100 or so capable BVR fighters. By the time MMRCA materialises for IAF, PAF may have more options.

Next year is a big year for Pakistan.

Chief of Army Staff retires, Chief Justice Retires, President and Parliament time is also over. Depending on who comes in, it would be down to economic growth and defense spending.


----------



## surya kiran

Oscar said:


> Continuing on the post..



The 2 operators and the range part are very valid arguments. The ability to surprise an enemy from a different path is as good as stealth (ok now please nobody say I am saying MKI has stealth.)

But, don't you think, that radars of the aircrafts also play an important role? Have read all sorts of stuff on the radar on board the MKI, but, none on what its actual capabilities maybe. Isn't this a more dangerous point, since, its not known (or maybe just not known in the public domain)?

Another point I keep hearing is that an MKI may direct other fighters with the help of its radar to a target? Will this not be a tactical advantage? But, then again, will not this be useful only in the interception phase, since then you are flying over your own turf. Another point may be that the planes may be detected by an Airborne Sytem across the border. So how does this come into play? If they were on an offensive mission they may anyway get detected by ground based radar?


----------



## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> Dont take that away from him. Even in a lost match, the losing side has the right to boast about a good play



Especially when some cheap, used up excuse of a country claims victory while the actual victor stays on the side lines!


----------



## Black Widow

Donatello said:


> With the upcoming AESA on J-10, and continued development of the FC20/J10 program, it is destined to be better than F-16 in Long term.
> 
> F-16 is 1960s-1980s tech. J-10 is evolving on that, but at a faster pace as it does not need to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> PAF with it's current budget wont go for a big twin engine plane like the J-11/SU27s, hence it only leaves one option, J10.
> 
> Maybe J-31, but lets see. The most important thing is, by the end of 2014 PAF should 100 or so capable BVR fighters. By the time MMRCA materialises for IAF, PAF may have more options.
> 
> Next year is a big year for Pakistan.
> 
> Chief of Army Staff retires, Chief Justice Retires, President and Parliament time is also over. Depending on who comes in, it would be down to economic growth and defense spending.








No matter how much gadget you put on J10 or F16, Its not match for Heavy class fighters (F15s and Su27 family). Recently comparative excercise btwn Chinese Su27s and J10s shows that. 


AESA in J10 and F16: No answer to Powerful Huge MESA radar of Su27s. 

Solution: Only way to counter Su27 family is Large number of SAMs, or have F15/Su27....  


NOTE: RCS plays no role in 4th gen fighter, The powerful radars can detect J10/F16 much before J10/F16 can lock on Su27. The Su27 can lock before(or at same time) F16/J10 lock on it..


----------



## Mav3rick

nomi007 said:


> this is the ansar



That may be the answer to Indian acquisition of Rafale (if it does indeed materialize in this decade!). Answer to MKI is our JF-17! As a purely defensive power (atleast initially while the numerical odds are in favor of the opposition), JF-17's would be complemented by AWEACS & SAM Systems as well as ground based EW/ECM/ECCM systems.

As the Indians boast of the actual power of the BARS radar on MKI's and it's classified performance, the performance of radars on JF-17's is also highly classified and so are the problems of both of these systems.....well atleast the problems of JF-17's radar, if any, are yet classified unlike those of SU-30MKI's that were evaluated and rejected by the Chinese!! No wonder IAF is in such a rush to upgrade the Radars on their MKI's.

Also, note the performance of Russian Jammers on their jets in the Russia/Georgia war in which the Russians were unable to jam their own SAM systems!! No wonder the Chinese have to further advance and modify almost all their acquisitions as most are unreliable. Only the Jets with Israeli pods hold threat, others hardly any jamming worth another look. And I will not even bother to write about the Indian pods!

It's yet no wonder still that the Russian Jets have to carry so many AA missiles whilst the opposition is considerably satisfied with half that on their fighters. Furthermore, is there a single example of a Russian BVR score........the icing here is that the PAF had always been aware of the poor performance of Russian BVR missiles and hence their comfort in not acquiring it until the purchase of AIM-120C5! And the whole world is aware of the ratio of Jets downed in head to head contests.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> Especially when some cheap, used up excuse of a country claims victory while the actual victor stays on the side lines!



See... While I decided to take the role of a gracious victor, you are just acting like a sour loser and have started abusing nationalities etc..


----------



## Mav3rick

surya kiran said:


> The 2 operators and the range part are very valid arguments. The ability to surprise an enemy from a different path is as good as stealth (ok now please nobody say I am saying MKI has stealth.)
> 
> But, don't you think, that radars of the aircrafts also play an important role? Have read all sorts of stuff on the radar on board the MKI, but, none on what its actual capabilities maybe. Isn't this a more dangerous point, since, its not known (or maybe just not known in the public domain)?
> 
> Another point I keep hearing is that an MKI may direct other fighters with the help of its radar to a target? Will this not be a tactical advantage? But, then again, will not this be useful only in the interception phase, since then you are flying over your own turf. Another point may be that the planes may be detected by an Airborne Sytem across the border. So how does this come into play? If they were on an offensive mission they may anyway get detected by ground based radar?



As far as the classified is concerned, the same radar was evaluated by the Chinese and was rejected as it had serious problems. The shortcomings of this radar overwhelmed the advantages it held. Secondly, while the MKI uses it's radar to direct other jets or for whatever other purpose, it sends out a massive RCS.....you know where I am getting at, right?



karan.1970 said:


> See... While I decided to take the role of a gracious victor, you are just acting like a sour loser and have started abusing nationalities etc..



It's not the nationalities that I have a problem with, honestly. You wouldn't believe the number of close Indian friends I have. It's the continuous lies and propaganda that sort of puts me off some of you guys as if anything could have been achieved alone. I'd much rather we all stay real.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Thorough Pro

Donatello said:


> *F-16 is 1960s-1980s tech*. J-10 is evolving on that, but at a faster pace as it does not need to reinvent the wheel.



F-16 may be a 1970 design,but it is not 1960-80 tech. All these blocks 15, 25, 40, 50, 60 are a result of and testament to upgrades with new tech.


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> That may be the answer to Indian acquisition of Rafale (if it does indeed materialize in this decade!). Answer to MKI is our JF-17! As a purely defensive power (atleast initially while the numerical odds are in favor of the opposition), JF-17's would be complemented by AWEACS & SAM Systems as well as ground based EW/ECM/ECCM systems.
> 
> As the Indians boast of the actual power of the BARS radar on MKI's and it's classified performance, the performance of radars on JF-17's is also highly classified and so are the problems of both of these systems.....well atleast the problems of JF-17's radar, if any, are yet classified unlike those of SU-30MKI's that were evaluated and rejected by the Chinese!! No wonder IAF is in such a rush to upgrade the Radars on their MKI's.
> 
> Also, note the performance of Russian Jammers on their jets in the Russia/Georgia war in which the Russians were unable to jam their own SAM systems!! No wonder the Chinese have to further advance and modify almost all their acquisitions as most are unreliable. Only the Jets with Israeli pods hold threat, others hardly any jamming worth another look. And I will not even bother to write about the Indian pods!
> 
> It's yet no wonder still that the Russian Jets have to carry so many AA missiles whilst the opposition is considerably satisfied with half that on their fighters. Furthermore, is there a single example of a Russian BVR score........the icing here is that the PAF had always been aware of the poor performance of Russian BVR missiles and hence their comfort in not acquiring it until the purchase of AIM-120C5! And the whole world is aware of the ratio of Jets downed in head to head contests.



There aren't any J-10B coming as of now.... you've had enough BS on this here on the forum.

You are trying to compare a large aperture(990mm) and highly powerful(7-10KW) Phased array radar with a small sized(660mm) and low powered(550W) slotted planer array... there can't be any competition here since both of them are of different generation even If you make either of them super classified.

The Chinese were never offered BARS... It must be noted that they are yet to demonstrate a fully functional fighter borne Phased array radar.

If IAF is going for an Upgrade on Radars its keeping up with the latest development among the best militaries around the world.. they are building a 1st class air force and that has got nothing to do with what Pakistan or China are doing or having... in simple words If PAF is still relying on primitive technology doesn't mean the rest of world has to do the same.

Electronic Jamming is a cat and mouse game... Georgia was the dumping ground for old soviet weaponry new jammers and ECMs were hardly used... specially the SAP-14 and SAP-518 stand off jamming and ECM pods which can be used only by Su30MKI and Su35 version in the RuAF... the newly inducted su34 is being currently integrated with those ECM and Jamming pods.

Chinese Jammers are the last things to be trusted by any airforce... must be the reason we are yet to see them in any country outside China... there have been interesting encounters between PLAAF Su27/J-11 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as PLA S-300/HQ-9 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as the Chinese Destroyer Type52C and Su30MKI... and I won't give the outcome here as to trigger troll attack by the CCP brigade... however I would like to mention that most of time the results were satisfying... mainly due to the training and superior tactics by IAF Chinese can any day say that in the Su30MKI was forced to return but by then It had done its job.

Multiple AAM ensure Higher chances of kill... even French have Mica with different seekers... while the USAF also used AIM-7 along with AIM-120... Chinese too use a mix of R-27(different version), R-77, SD-10 and other missiles... something dissimilar to what you have been saying about PAF... doesn't mean rest of the world must not If PAF can't.

Russians have scored BVR kills when needed... we can say the same about Chinese BVR score or for that matter any score on a 4th/3rd gen. fighter.

Aim-120C5 are from the stock retired from the use of USAF they now prefer Aim-120D... PAF didn't have the option to choose they were forced to take.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## sukhoifan

SU 30MKI is a twin engine flight.

1. if one engine damaged then with other it can manage, this is not the case with jf 17.
2. The forieng object damage is a big problem in jf 17. so the paf air force will have too many deaths due to single engine failure.


----------



## Najam Khan

@Oscar, Great post!
The on-paper analysis of Su30MKI characteristics with equal JF-17/F-16 in the air looks 'all good' in Sukhoi's favour. Chinese Su-27SK/UBK fighters in Ex-Shaheen-I hardly surprised PAF, it was a good experience to fly against such IRST+BVR equipped fighters. There is nothing much an aircraft brings on the table than the methods and strategies its employed with.

When such IAF vs PAF engagements are seen in complete war scenario, then the balance gets fairly equal. PAF with medium and long range SAMs, BVR equipped F-16, JF-17 and F-7PG and up to 10 AEW&C/ELINT/EW aircraft is definitely not an easy adversary. JF-17's (seen on PDF as a weak opponent against MKI) flexibility of use, its weapon configurations options and its deployment numbers will be the key plan of PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Najam Khan

DARKY said:


> *Chinese Jammers are the last things to be trusted by any airforce... must be the reason we are yet to see them in any country outside China*... there have been interesting encounters between PLAAF Su27/J-11 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as PLA S-300/HQ-9 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as the Chinese Destroyer Type52C and Su30MKI... and I won't give the outcome here as to trigger troll attack by the CCP brigade... however I would like to mention that most of time the results were satisfying... mainly due to the training and superior tactics by IAF Chinese can any day say that in the Su30MKI was forced to return but by then It had done its job.
> 
> Multiple AAM ensure Higher chances of kill... even French have Mica with different seekers... while the USAF also used AIM-7 along with AIM-120... Chinese too use a mix of R-27(different version), R-77, SD-10 and other missiles... something dissimilar to what you have been saying about PAF... doesn't mean rest of the world must not If PAF can't.
> 
> Russians have scored BVR kills when needed...* we can say the same about Chinese BVR score or for that matter any score on a 4th/3rd gen. fighter.*



With due respect, the whole world knows that Chinese don't share the details of there tests and missile accuracy spread sheets but calling them inferior won't make them one. The same was said when J-20 was unveiled, now J-31 and X-47's Chinese derivative is flying. Such stealth aircraft flights is not for propaganda or psy-ops, its a reality that they have gone far ahead than west planners had anticipated. 

While you or any other member here places there doubts about Chinese jammers and BVRs your military planners are busy in reshaping war doctrines; because mocking them won't change the facts.



DARKY said:


> *Aim-120C5 are from the stock retired from the use of USAF they now prefer Aim-120D... PAF didn't have the option to choose they were forced to take*.



Yes!!!!!!!!! and -C5 version scuks so as JHMCS, everything is sh!t

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## DARKY

Najam Khan said:


> @Oscar, Great post!
> The on-paper analysis of Su30MKI characteristics with equal JF-17/F-16 in the air looks 'all good' in Sukhoi's favour. Chinese Su-27SK/UBK fighters in Ex-Shaheen-I hardly surprised PAF, it was a good experience to fly against such IRST+BVR equipped fighters. There is nothing much an aircraft brings on the table than the methods and strategies its employed with.
> 
> When such IAF vs PAF engagements are seen in complete war scenario, then the balance gets fairly equal. PAF with *medium and long range SAMs*, BVR equipped F-16, JF-17 and F-7PG and up to 10 AEW&C/ELINT/EW aircraft is definitely not an easy adversary. JF-17's (seen on PDF as a weak opponent against MKI) flexibility of use, its weapon configurations options and its deployment numbers will be the key plan of PAF.



Emphasis on the bold parts.


----------



## Najam Khan

DARKY said:


> Emphasis on the bold parts.


Lets say its enough information for now.

BTW Sapada-2000 MR-SAM, is already operational with PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DARKY

Najam Khan said:


> With due respect, the whole world knows that *Chinese don't share the details* of there tests and missile accuracy spread sheets but calling them inferior won't make them one. The same was said when J-20 was unveiled, now J-31 and X-47's Chinese derivative is flying. Such stealth aircraft flights is not for propaganda or psy-ops, its a reality that they have gone far ahead than west planners had anticipated.



If they don't share detail It doesn't mean their systems are upto the mark.. same with PAF.
They don't have stand off Jamming pods and ECM of the class of ALQ-218/ALQ-99 or SAP-518/SAP-14 their self protection jammers have hardly had the experience against any western or even Russian phased array radar.
J-20 is at present a technology demonstrator.. It has got nothing extraordinary which makes it stand out... other than Its VLO features.



> While you or any other member here places there doubts about Chinese jammers and BVRs your military planners are busy in reshaping war doctrines; because mocking them won't change the facts.



Military planners have to reshape their war doctrines even If someone strap some herds of sheep with explosives and set them towards the border.. doesn't mean that they are a well organised heavily armed army.





> Yes!!!!!!!!! and -C5 version scuks so as JHMCS, everything is sh!t



I never said that.. stop being a cry baby.



Najam Khan said:


> Lets say its enough information for now.
> 
> BTW Sapada-2000 MR-SAM, is already operational with PAF.



oh..... I can understand.
BTW Sapada-2000 would classify as short range point defense system and not a medium range SAM which can take out targets beyond 50 Km.


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

First of all su-30 mki unlike russian version carries a israeli jammer.See berka valley turkey shoot for the effectiveness of israeli jammers against sams and fighters.
Second there are no good medium or long range sams atm for paf,and sams and aircarft don't fight together as they risk hitting their own aircraft,ussually sams fired first then fighters close.Never sams interfering in a BVR skirmish or dogfight between opposing forces.The egyptian air force lost huge numbers of planes to friendly fire in 1973 from sams while the sams caused high casualities among IAF.
This doesn't mean paf can't counter mki,as has been pointed out by oscar the f-16 block50 and above with upgrades is quite capable of standing toe to toe with mki.But jf-17 is being a little optimistic.


----------



## fataljoshua

i think su-30mki is actually the fighter with greatest capacity which could be traded in the international market
but on the contrary the cost of it is also too much that PAF may use the same amount of funds to get more JF-17s to confront it.
actually they are all in the 3rd generation so the strategy "overwhelm quality with quantity" will also work out.
Moreover,50% of su-30mki's superb capacity is counted for its power to attack the ground targets.And this won't gain it advantage during the air combat


----------



## Black Widow

AUSTERLITZ said:


> First of all su-30 mki unlike russian version carries a israeli jammer.See berka valley turkey shoot for the effectiveness of israeli jammers against sams and fighters.
> Second there are no good medium or long range sams atm for paf,and sams and aircarft don't fight together as they risk hitting their own aircraft,ussually sams fired first then fighters close.Never sams interfering in a BVR skirmish or dogfight between opposing forces.The egyptian air force lost huge numbers of planes to friendly fire in 1973 from sams while the sams caused high casualities among IAF.
> This doesn't mean paf can't counter mki,as has been pointed out by oscar the *f-16 block50 and above with upgrades is quite capable of standing toe to toe with mki.*But jf-17 is being a little optimistic.





I doubt the bold part....


----------



## notorious_eagle

DARKY said:


> Chinese Jammers are the last things to be trusted by any airforce...



And you know this how? Were you part of the testing team that conducted multiple evaluations under different scenarios? The PAF team in Chengdu tested these Chinese Jammers and put them through some very through grind, they were quite happy with the results. I would take their word over a fanboy since they have experience of conducting evaluations of both Western and Chinese EW suites. 



DARKY said:


> Russians have scored BVR kills when needed... we can say the same about Chinese BVR score or for that matter any score on a 4th/3rd gen. fighter.



Please expand on the Russian BVR kills? Which engagements are you talking about? 



DARKY said:


> Aim-120C5 are from the stock retired from the use of USAF they now prefer Aim-120D... PAF didn't have the option to choose they were forced to take.



Oh Goodness me . Now i feel stupid replying to a fanboy, this part does it for me. 

Good Day



Black Widow said:


> I doubt the bold part....



The SU30MKI got hammered by the F16's operated by the Red Force during Red Flag Exercise . The SU30MKI is a machine, a very good one if i might add but not one without vulnerabilities. The Indian fanboys need to stop making it look like 'God's Gift to Aviation', because it certainly is not.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Donatello

DARKY said:


> Emphasis on the bold parts.




I think Najam shouldn't have bothered dignifying your post and intellect (or lack thereof), by responding to your troll post.

In any case, if you think Chinese weapons are of no use, you are just kidding yourself and your next generation (god forbid if you have any).


I am reporting your posts as troll posts, and hope to see you in pink soon.



Black Widow said:


> I doubt the bold part....



Post reported for trolling.

No gives a shyt what you doubt.


----------



## Black Widow

notorious_eagle said:


> The SU30MKI got hammered by the F16's operated by the Red Force during Red Flag Exercise . The SU30MKI is a machine, a very good one if i might add but not one without vulnerabilities. The Indian fanboys need to stop making it look like 'God's Gift to Aviation', because it certainly is not.





Can we discuss this non sense in Su30 MKI thread??? The MKI is BAAP of F16s... The only competitor is F15..



Donatello said:


> Post reported for trolling.
> 
> No gives a shyt what you doubt.




Post reported for Declaring some one troll (who doesn't agree with God Almighty F16 theory), I have all reason to doubt, if you disagree me, ask me to clarify, why declaring me troll??? I have not accumalated 4000 post by posting stupid comments.....


----------



## surya kiran

Mav3rick said:


> As far as the classified is concerned, the same radar was evaluated by the Chinese and was rejected as it had serious problems. The shortcomings of this radar overwhelmed the advantages it held..



They found the same problem the IAF did. So its naive to assume that it was not fixed. 

Ofcourse, if you have read the Jane's article on the topic, they follow the same official line as the chinese government which is to do with aircraft performance and incompatibilty than radar problems.

But my query, was more related to how radar will determine tactics and wouldn't it be a major decision factor?


----------



## notorious_eagle

Black Widow said:


> Can we discuss this non sense in Su30 MKI thread??? *The MKI is BAAP of F16s...* The only competitor is F15..



Sure, but just to end the conversation i want to point out that the pilots of the USAF F16's hammered the SU30MKI to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight A2A simulated combat. You are exactly proving the point i made earlier, the Indian fanboys make the SU30MKI out to be an aircraft that is invincible. F16 has proved to be the most successful Western Aviation Aircraft of our times, its numbers and users speak for themselves. You belittling the F16 just because the PAF operates it will not make change the facts.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Black Widow

notorious_eagle said:


> Sure, but just to end the conversation i want to point out that the pilots of the USAF F16's hammered the SU30MKI to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight A2A simulated combat. You are exactly proving the point i made earlier, the Indian fanboys make the SU30MKI out to be an aircraft that is invincible. F16 has proved to be the most successful Western Aviation Aircraft of our times, its numbers and users speak for themselves. You belittling the F16 just because the PAF operates it will not make change the facts.






First this is thread about "How PAF counter MKI' not How USAF F16 counter MKI. Secondly you have are either misinformed or ill informed.. Lets tell u in perspective... u see either black or white , u no see grey part... Let me tell you some fact about 2008 RedFlag exercise... 

India was member of Blue team , USA was member of red team..

1. Indian plane were not sync with other blue team members (coz We don't wanted to be, we were not willing to share our data link with NATO members of Blue team ). All communication was verbal. 
2. Our IFF (Identify Friend and Foe) was not operational coz we didn't wanted to be, No MKI were in sync with NATO blue team members. Again It was verbal.
3. Our Radars were operating in training mode (Low detection low emission mode), so that our PESA/MESA radar frequency should not be tracked by NATO.
4. We were cautious about FOD coz we didn't had spare available in Nellis base Nevada USA. And more over Russian machines are well known for there toughness.

Here are some quotes from Vishnu Som (Who was reporting from Nellis Nevada) 

" not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down&#8217; in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere &#8230; the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially." 

". In one of these exercises &#8230; the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part &#8230; shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills&#8217; have been credited to the Indian Air Force."

"So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word &#8230; no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though &#8230; the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact &#8230; the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force&#8217;s young pilots &#8230; learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact &#8230; the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises &#8230; its more than clear that the IAF&#8217;s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar &#8230; held up just fine in training mode &#8230;despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force."






Read it...

Fratricide by IAF fighters : this is correct, the IAF did 'shoot down' some 'friendlies' and that was assessed and attributed to the IAF not being networked. However, what the Colonel did not bring out were the two essential reasons for this. Firstly, this occurred mainly when the AWACS was not available (unserviceable) and controlling was done by GCI. More significantly it happened during extremely poor controlling by their operators, this fact being acknowledged during debriefs and the controllers being admonished accordingly. 'Accents' were perhaps the main culprit here, which very often led to American controllers not being able to understand Indian calls.

Now hear this : the F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of fratricides as the IAF ! Considering they are well networked, yet their pilots shot down the same number of 'friendlies'. This was not only a major concern but also turned out to be a major source of embarrassment as the USAF had everything -- Link 16, IFF Mode 4 etc and the IAF had nothing. Under the Rules of Engagement, they did not even permit the IAF to use data link within themselves. All cases of USAF fratricide were covered in the next day's mass briefing as lessons learnt by concerned aircrew. In the IAF, the incidents were covered by concerned controllers, and attributed to lack of adequate integration, excessive R/T congestion and poor controlling. Gloating on cases of IAF fratricide is frivolous and unprofessional



Read it as well... Nellis Nevada was a training exercise, not war...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Black Widow

There is no need to go in for 'kill ratios' as that would be demeaning. However, the IAF had significant edge throughout and retained it. In fact the true lesson for the USAF should be :* 'do not field low value legacy equipment against the Su-30MKI' *!. (demeaning or otherwise, it is understood that the kill ratio (at Mountain Home AFB) was 21 : 1, in favour of the Su-30MKIs).



Look at the bold part... and imagine what the author mean to say...


The only thing can compete MKI is Su27 family or F15 family... or SAMs...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paan Singh

Black Widow said:


> First this is thread about "How PAF counter MKI' not How USAF F16 counter MKI. Secondly you have are either misinformed or ill informed.. Lets tell u in perspective... u see either black or white , u no see grey part... Let me tell you some fact about 2008 RedFlag exercise...
> 
> India was member of Blue team , USA was member of red team..
> 
> 1. Indian plane were not sync with other blue team members (coz We don't wanted to be, we were not willing to share our data link with NATO members of Blue team ). All communication was verbal.
> 2. Our IFF (Identify Friend and Foe) was not operational coz we didn't wanted to be, No MKI were in sync with NATO blue team members. Again It was verbal.
> 3. Our Radars were operating in training mode (Low detection low emission mode), so that our PESA/MESA radar frequency should not be tracked by NATO.
> 4. We were cautious about FOD coz we didn't had spare available in Nellis base Nevada USA. And more over Russian machines are well known for there toughness.
> 
> Here are some quotes from Vishnu Som (Who was reporting from Nellis Nevada)
> 
> " not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down&#8217; in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere &#8230; the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially."
> 
> ". In one of these exercises &#8230; the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part &#8230; shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills&#8217; have been credited to the Indian Air Force."
> 
> "So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word &#8230; no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though &#8230; the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact &#8230; the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force&#8217;s young pilots &#8230; learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact &#8230; the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises &#8230; its more than clear that the IAF&#8217;s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar &#8230; held up just fine in training mode &#8230;despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read it...
> 
> Fratricide by IAF fighters : this is correct, the IAF did 'shoot down' some 'friendlies' and that was assessed and attributed to the IAF not being networked. However, what the Colonel did not bring out were the two essential reasons for this. Firstly, this occurred mainly when the AWACS was not available (unserviceable) and controlling was done by GCI. More significantly it happened during extremely poor controlling by their operators, this fact being acknowledged during debriefs and the controllers being admonished accordingly. 'Accents' were perhaps the main culprit here, which very often led to American controllers not being able to understand Indian calls.
> 
> Now hear this : the F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of fratricides as the IAF ! Considering they are well networked, yet their pilots shot down the same number of 'friendlies'. This was not only a major concern but also turned out to be a major source of embarrassment as the USAF had everything -- Link 16, IFF Mode 4 etc and the IAF had nothing. Under the Rules of Engagement, they did not even permit the IAF to use data link within themselves. All cases of USAF fratricide were covered in the next day's mass briefing as lessons learnt by concerned aircrew. In the IAF, the incidents were covered by concerned controllers, and attributed to lack of adequate integration, excessive R/T congestion and poor controlling. Gloating on cases of IAF fratricide is frivolous and unprofessional
> 
> 
> 
> Read it as well... Nellis Nevada was a training exercise, not war...




I m tired of pakistanis posting those video on youtube and one more thing is the average age of the su-30 pilots was 24 and majority of the pilots who took part in red flag were young pilots.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notorious_eagle

Here you go friend, go through this thread. This topic has been discussed in detail. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ts-usaf-briefing-about-iaf-participation.html

This has been discussed in detail before, ignore what this fellow Vishnu Som is saying as his reporting are clearly biased and boasting of nationalistic pride. I don't think anybody here in PDF would deny the fact that the SU30MKI is a very good machine, but it does go over the top when the Indians claim that it is invincible in the air and cannot be shot down. Anyways, i am done with this conversation.

Good Day

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Paan Singh

+

Most of the time bisons remained invisible from the radars of teens


----------



## Black Widow

Paan Singh said:


> I m tired of pakistanis posting those video on youtube and one more thing is the average age of the su-30 pilots was 24 and majority of the pilots who took part in red flag were young pilots.




Exactly , our objective was to learn about F16 and F15 . We were not there to show Su27's supremacy. Entire world knows under normal condition, Su27 and F15 family are beast of sky. They can eat up any 4th generation fighter.. I am not just talking about MKI, this applied on Chinese Su27 family (Recently J11 wiped a$$ of J10s), Russian Su35BM and Viets Su 27 as well..

In some war Su27 f$$$$ed up MiG29.. 

Only solution for PAF is SAMs and F15 family, to counter MKI.


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

well our borders are very close and during war time radar range needed would be 50 nm max if one considers these facts Su-30 is not that very big threat for us .. we have defence system enough to counter su-30 and related fighters ...


----------



## Paan Singh

Black Widow said:


> Exactly , our objective was to learn about F16 and F15 . We were not there to show Su27's supremacy. Entire world knows under normal condition, Su27 and F15 family are beast of sky. They can eat up any 4th generation fighter.. I am not just talking about MKI, this applied on Chinese Su27 family (Recently J11 wiped a$$ of J10s), Russian Su35BM and Viets Su 27 as well..
> 
> In some war Su27 f$$$$ed up MiG29..
> 
> Only solution for PAF is SAMs and F15 family, to counter MKI.



Even if the same logic goes,rafale was even mocked by USAF pilots and F-16's of SAF are already stationed in india in west bengal and we train their pilots


----------



## Black Widow

notorious_eagle said:


> Here you go friend, go through this thread. This topic has been discussed in detail.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ts-usaf-briefing-about-iaf-participation.html
> 
> This has been discussed in detail before, ignore what this fellow Vishnu Som is saying as his reporting are clearly biased and boasting of nationalistic pride. I don't think anybody here in PDF would deny the fact that the SU30MKI is a very good machine, but it does go over the top when the Indians claim that it is invincible in the air and cannot be shot down. Anyways, i am done with this conversation.
> 
> Good Day





I never said Its invincible, I just said, The heavy fighter like Su27 Family and F15 family live a legacy. The world know these guys are king of sky. These guys has best Radar (and Big As well) , Huge number of weapon station (In A2A fight 1 AAM can't guarentee a Kill). Huge space to accommodate modern EW systems. 

Trust me to counter these beast you need one of them or best SAM... Or Good Luck...: )


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Black Widow said:


> Exactly , our objective was to learn about F16 and F15 . We were not there to show Su27's supremacy. Entire world knows under normal condition, Su27 and F15 family are beast of sky. They can eat up any 4th generation fighter.. I am not just talking about MKI, this applied on Chinese Su27 family (Recently J11 wiped a$$ of J10s), Russian Su35BM and Viets Su 27 as well..
> 
> In some war Su27 f$$$$ed up MiG29..
> 
> Only solution for PAF is SAMs and F15 family, to counter MKI.


PAF conduct exercises with chinese su-30s and j-11's , we have jets enough to counter immediate threat , 
well indians too need to come out of euphoria ...



Black Widow said:


> I never said Its invincible, I just said, The heavy fighter like Su27 Family and F15 family live a legacy. The world know these guys are king of sky. These guys has best Radar (and Big As well) , Huge number of weapon station (In A2A fight 1 AAM can't guarentee a Kill). Huge space to accommodate modern EW systems.
> 
> Trust me to counter these beast you need one of them or best SAM... Or Good Luck...: )



don't worry keep ur beasts in your territory they will get killed if they come to our side ...


----------



## Mujraparty

notorious_eagle said:


> *Sure, but just to end the conversation i want to point out that the pilots of the USAF F16's hammered the SU30MKI to the point where the IAF pilots refused to fight A2A simulated comba*t. You are exactly proving the point i made earlier, the Indian fanboys make the SU30MKI out to be an aircraft that is invincible. F16 has proved to be the most successful Western Aviation Aircraft of our times, its numbers and users speak for themselves. You belittling the F16 just because the PAF operates it will not make change the facts.



and where did you hear that ..?


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

in long range interception su-30 may be fatal but in moderate or close rage it is not as much effective .....
that's what is fact and is gona effect the results


----------



## Yeti

notorious_eagle said:


> Here you go friend, go through this thread. This topic has been discussed in detail.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ts-usaf-briefing-about-iaf-participation.html
> 
> This has been discussed in detail before, ignore what this fellow Vishnu Som is saying as his reporting are clearly biased and boasting of nationalistic pride. I don't think anybody here in PDF would deny the fact that the SU30MKI is a very good machine, but it does go over the top when the Indians claim that it is invincible in the air and cannot be shot down. Anyways, i am done with this conversation.
> 
> Good Day




During that red flag exercise one must bear in mind the Bars radar was not even switched on and another point is the Indian jets were not all setup with the AWACS that the American jets were that is why you had a high blue on blue rate.



REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> in long range interception su-30 may be fatal but in moderate or close rage it is not as much effective .....
> that's what is fact and is gona effect the results




Where did you get this so called fact from?


----------



## ziaulislam

answer pretty straight forword
f-16ABM and b52
plus J-10s

in any war fighters will co ordinate together they wouldnt be facing each other in duels!!


so in co ordinated warfare MKI can even be countered by JFT when operating in home environmenet armed with SD-10s and supported by AWECS

lastly yes everybody knows that IAF out numbers PAF by 1:3..this has been since 1947..infact we outnumbered much more in 65 and 71

so 60-70 odd f-16s vs 230-250 odd MKI in near future 
and 40-50 J-10s and 120 MRCA
is nothing new or surprising...


----------



## Black Widow

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> in long range interception su-30 may be fatal but in moderate or close rage it is not as much effective .....
> that's what is fact and is gona effect the results






The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? These machines are huge, the mobility/agility can be lesser (which some may disagree) than small fighter...

The Objective of Huge fighters (F15, Su27, MiG31) is, kill them before they know who kill them.. You see the track record of F15, instead of having RCS of 15m2 they never get caught by any Mig...


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Yeti said:


> During that red flag exercise one must bear in mind the Bars radar was not even switched on and another point is the Indian jets were not all setup with the AWACS that the American jets were that is why you had a high blue on blue rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get this so called fact from?


i has discussion with two GDPs , one flying f-16 and other f-7 ...
one have experience with chinese su-30s , 
u need to realize these facts , that u aren't ready to realize ...


----------



## DARKY

notorious_eagle said:


> And you know this how? Were you part of the testing team that conducted multiple evaluations under different scenarios? The PAF team in Chengdu tested these Chinese Jammers and put them through some very through grind, they were quite happy with the results. I would take their word over a fanboy since they have experience of conducting evaluations of both Western and Chinese EW suites.



What evaluation did the mature pilots perform ? what western suits were used in the evaluation against the Chinese ones ? you saying as If the PAF has open market for both west and Chinese Electronics which is hardly the case.
ECMs and Jammers evolve through time on the data engineers obtain from various exercise and conflicts and develop upon their EW capabilities.... and we talking of China here.



> Please expand on the Russian BVR kills? Which engagements are you talking about?



Why not search about yourself.



> Oh Goodness me . Now i feel stupid replying to a fanboy, this part does it for me.
> 
> Good Day



Why do you bother me I am tried of you leading to nowhere baby cry and pointless post.






> The SU30MKI got* hammered by the F16's* operated by the Red Force during Red Flag Exercise . The SU30MKI is a machine, a very good one if i might add but not one without vulnerabilities. The Indian fanboys need to stop making it look like 'God's Gift to Aviation', because it certainly is not.



And the usual rant...
F-16 were hardly used against Su30 in one on one engagements It was against F-15.
Besides Su30 is the BAAP of F-16 sooner you swallow that the better for you.


----------



## Black Widow

ziaulislam said:


> answer pretty straight forword
> f-16ABM and b52
> plus J-10s
> 
> in any war fighters will co ordinate together they wouldnt be facing each other in duels!!
> 
> 
> so in co ordinated warfare MKI can even be countered by JFT when operating in home environmenet armed with SD-10s and supported by AWECS
> 
> lastly yes everybody knows that IAF out numbers PAF by 1:3..this has been since 1947..infact we outnumbered much more in 65 and 71
> 
> so 60-70 odd f-16s vs 230-250 odd MKI in near future
> and 40-50 J-10s and 120 MRCA
> is nothing new or surprising...






Good explanation... but there are some glitch
1. In 65 India was in bad shape (due to chinese attack,) our defence was weak, very weak. Ur generals saw it opportunity and mounted Operation Gibraltor. You had newer weapons from USA , Still we had good fight.
2. In 71 , ask your generals what happened..  They can either lie or hide there face.

In any war India never used entire airforce against PAF... Even in future (god forbid) India will use selective squadron against PAF, not entire 230 odd MKI... 


We will not fight "World War III" with you....


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Black Widow said:


> The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? These machines are huge, the mobility/agility can be lesser (which some may disagree) than small fighter...
> 
> The Objective of Huge fighters (F15, Su27, MiG31) is, kill them before they know who kill them.. You see the track record of F15, instead of having RCS of 15m2 they never get caught by any Mig...



why don't u try to realize that we are very close and long range fighter is not gona be effective , whats the distance between lahore and dehli ? to engage 1st your su-30;s need to cross border ... max combat distance before missile launch will be 50 km or so , here 100 plus km BVRs aren't gona be that much effective ... effective range will be reduced to 50 km , here su;30 is gona loose that very advantage


----------



## Yeti

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> i has discussion with two GDPs , one flying f-16 and other f-7 ...
> one have experience with chinese su-30s ,
> u need to realize these facts , that u aren't ready to realize ...




You got to remember the SU-30 the Chinese have is a whole diffrent kind of bird to mki in many respects so you can't say it is a fact when you have not faced the mki until that happens nothing is certain.


One example is the *Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft *


----------



## notorious_eagle

DARKY said:


> What evaluation did the mature pilots perform ? what western suits were used in the evaluation against the Chinese ones ? you saying as If the PAF has open market for both west and Chinese Electronics which is hardly the case.
> ECMs and Jammers evolve through time on the data engineers obtain from various exercise and conflicts and develop upon their EW capabilities.... and we talking of China here.



So i was right, you just pulled that comment out of your a**. You have zero knowledge on China's EW capabilities as i predicted. Compare how much resources China is spending on its aviation budget with that off Russia and EU combined, you will find out how much serious they are regarding electronic warfare. As far as PAF access regarding Western tech is concerned, they have had access to Western tech for the last 60 years while India is the new kid on the block. 



DARKY said:


> Why not search about yourself.



Since you made this audacious claim, you have to prove it not me. If you can't back up your words with actions, than better not debate. 



DARKY said:


> Why do you bother me I am tried of you leading to nowhere baby cry and pointless post.



I agree, i feel like a moron. I thought you matured with time since not long ago you claimed that super duper brahmos cannot be detected by an AESA radar and Pakistani people will welcome Indian invaders. But clearly i was wrong. 



DARKY said:


> And the usual rant...
> F-16 were hardly used against Su30 in one on one engagements It was against F-15.
> Besides Su30 is the BAAP of F-16 sooner you swallow that the better for you.



Go through the link i posted, SU30MKI went up against both F16's and F15's. As far as SU30 being the baap of F16 is concerned, last i remember it was the F16 which locked on the SU30MKI and not the other way around . If your so confident, cross over the border and find it who the baap is.


----------



## ziaulislam

well 
in 65 u had enough time to recover
in 71 india simply helped an already nearly sucessful rebellion, india didnt acheived any significant gains on the western front, it should have gained its disputed area of kashmir and northern areas but it didnt..its a pretty no gain for india type situation..


i was talking of airforces ..if u are keen historian u will know that in both 71 and 65 PAF had an upper hand over IAF..even on the eastern front..

and india used all of its fire power against us in 65 and 71..


----------



## Yeti

Notorious eagle how can you say they beat us when the bars radar was not even switched on?

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20120323/172357523.html


The Chinese version of SU-30 is very much diffrent to mki that is why Russia is ordering this version,

The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.

The &#8220;Chinese&#8221; line is based on a different logic that prescribes parallel installation of new systems that fall short of full integration.

Most likely, the military is attracted by how easy it is to add different weapons and equipment to the Su-30MKI, transforming it into an attack fighter-bomber, a heavy interceptor aircraft, or something else.


----------



## DARKY

notorious_eagle said:


> So i was right, you just pulled that comment out of your a**. You have zero knowledge on China's EW capabilities as i predicted. Compare how much resources China is spending on its aviation budget with that off Russia and EU combined, you will find out how much serious they are regarding electronic warfare. As far as PAF access regarding Western tech is concerned, they have had access to Western tech for the last 60 years while India is the new kid on the block.



Usual cursing and and use of derogatory words no wonder after all you are the think tank here  I guess It goes the similar way among Pakistanis and their country.
Now since I don't know any thing.. why don't you tell use what you know about the Chinese Jammers and ECM... their stand off jamming capability and self protection jamming suits.
PAF was given grants they are still given grants having access to something and obtaining grants are two different things.
India has its own electronic Industry which works in collaboration with best in the world.



> Since you made this audacious claim, you have to prove it not me. If you can't back up your words with actions, than better not debate.



This must be funny for isn't it ?
Quarrels over the Border «
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/victories-iraq-gulf.war.pdf


> I agree, i feel like a moron. I thought you matured with time since not long ago you claimed that super duper brahmos cannot be detected by an AESA radar and Pakistani people will welcome Indian invaders. But clearly i was wrong.



Yes you were the moron who claimed that the IR signature of Brahmos could be detected by your AWACS.. you still doing research on that ?



> Go through the link i posted, SU30MKI went up against both F16's and F15's. As far as SU30 being the baap of F16 is concerned, last i remember it was the F16 which locked on the SU30MKI and not the other way around . If your so confident, cross over the border and find it who the baap is.



I had a detailed argument over this with Santro in the past.. you can look for the post.
Can you show us the source which says about F-16 locking Su30 in the last engagement they had ? any image or picture ?

And they usually do cross over don't they ?.. sometime the baap knows about the intruders and scrambles other times you don't even know.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

Yeti said:


> Notorious eagle how can you say they beat us when the bars radar was not even switched on?
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia



Besides that there was no AWACS support inspite of that they did score kills and did well but who can explain that to the think tanks here.


----------



## Yeti

DARKY said:


> Besides that there was no AWACS support inspite of that they did score kills and did well but who can explain that to the think tanks here.




I know and I said that on a previous post hence why we had so many blue on blue, now just think how diffrent it would be in a real life war scenario where we would be using our phalcon radars (which btw China wanted but could not get) as well as the bars on the mki it is a whole diffrent ball game.


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> There aren't any J-10B coming as of now.... you've had enough BS on this here on the forum.



Fair enough. There will be no J-10B's until IAF begins induction of Rafale. Why invest in anything unless the thing it is meant to counter is actually operational.





DARKY said:


> You are trying to compare a large aperture(990mm) and highly powerful(7-10KW) Phased array radar with a small sized(660mm) and low powered(550W) slotted planer array... there can't be any competition here since both of them are of different generation even If you make either of them super classified.



If only the size of radars was everything! Anyway, as far as the performance is concerned, the MKI would spot the JFT (even with it's super huge radar) about the same time that JFT would spot the MKI (after all these huge radars have massive signature, major drawback). And then the game will be missile v/s jammers. Not a really strong story for the MKI especially if it is inside JFT territory where JFT enjoys support of AWEACS/ground based EW/ECM/ECCM assets along with SAM sites.





DARKY said:


> The Chinese were never offered BARS... It must be noted that they are yet to demonstrate a fully functional fighter borne Phased array radar.



Perhaps, if you did a bit of research?





DARKY said:


> If IAF is going for an Upgrade on Radars its keeping up with the latest development among the best militaries around the world.. they are building a 1st class air force and that has got nothing to do with what Pakistan or China are doing or having... in simple words If PAF is still relying on primitive technology doesn't mean the rest of world has to do the same.



The justification put forth by your military elite and country leaders in general is that of acquisitions and developments of Military infrastructure in Pakistan & in China. Your position is highly ridiculous, at best.





DARKY said:


> Electronic Jamming is a cat and mouse game... Georgia was the dumping ground for old soviet weaponry new jammers and ECMs were hardly used... specially the SAP-14 and SAP-518 stand off jamming and ECM pods which can be used only by Su30MKI and Su35 version in the RuAF... the newly inducted su34 is being currently integrated with those ECM and Jamming pods.



Even if I do accept your version and accept that Russia was stupid enough to do what you say it did, Buk/TOR SAM systems are even more outdated, yet they fared without opposition from Jammers that were carried by Russian Jets.

By the way, if Georgia was indeed the dumping ground of outdated Soviet weaponry, the Russian systems are further shamed as it was the Russian jets that were unable to Jam Georgian SAM sites.





DARKY said:


> Chinese Jammers are the last things to be trusted by any airforce... must be the reason we are yet to see them in any country outside China... there have been interesting encounters between PLAAF Su27/J-11 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as PLA S-300/HQ-9 and IAF Su30MKI aswell as the Chinese Destroyer Type52C and Su30MKI... and I won't give the outcome here as to trigger troll attack by the CCP brigade... however I would like to mention that most of time the results were satisfying... mainly due to the training and superior tactics by IAF Chinese can any day say that in the Su30MKI was forced to return but by then It had done its job.



Ok. Although, I am not aware of any such encounter.





DARKY said:


> Multiple AAM ensure Higher chances of kill... even French have Mica with different seekers... while the USAF also used AIM-7 along with AIM-120... Chinese too use a mix of R-27(different version), R-77, SD-10 and other missiles... something dissimilar to what you have been saying about PAF... doesn't mean rest of the world must not If PAF can't.



All I have said is that Russians rely on salvos of multiple simultaneous engagements to prop up probability of a kill while the Americans fire a single missile for a still higher kill probability. And this doctrine also means that the Jet armed with Russian missiles will have to carry twice the number of Missile that it's opponents carry.





DARKY said:


> Russians have scored BVR kills when needed... we can say the same about Chinese BVR score or for that matter any score on a 4th/3rd gen. fighter.
> 
> Aim-120C5 are from the stock retired from the use of USAF they now prefer Aim-120D... PAF didn't have the option to choose they were forced to take.



I could not find a single Russian BVR kill registered anywhere! 

And who cares if the AIM-120C5's are retired stock (as opposed to what they really are)......we'd even take retired American F-16's if they would sell them to us any day over the MKI's 



sukhoifan said:


> SU 30MKI is a twin engine flight.
> 
> 1. if one engine damaged then with other it can manage, this is not the case with jf 17.
> 2. The forieng object damage is a big problem in jf 17. so the paf air force will have too many deaths due to single engine failure.



If redundancy was the main objective then perhaps yes. However, with the reliability of current Jet engines, cost of redundancy is too high. The only thing that could be taken in to account is the Thrust:Weight ratio.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Mav3rick

Najam Khan said:


> Lets say its enough information for now.
> 
> BTW Sapada-2000 MR-SAM, is already operational with PAF.



Spada is not the cream of our Military SAM systems 

Do you know what is?



Black Widow said:


> I doubt the bold part....



As do I....the MKI doesn't stand a chance against the F-16's Block 50 and above.



surya kiran said:


> They found the same problem the IAF did. So its naive to assume that it was not fixed.
> 
> Ofcourse, if you have read the Jane's article on the topic, they follow the same official line as the chinese government which is to do with aircraft performance and incompatibilty than radar problems.
> 
> But my query, was more related to how radar will determine tactics and wouldn't it be a major decision factor?



It's not so much of a problem as in a shortcoming and yes IAF is addressing that shortcoming, by replacing the Radar but that will take some time. The Chinese gave the same excuse any strategic partner would have given, they wouldn't have disclosed the short comings to the world.....but to a long standing ally, well that's a different case

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mav3rick

Paan Singh said:


> +
> 
> Most of the time bisons remained invisible from the radars of teens



Most likely because they kept getting shot down even before they got a chance to get up there


----------



## Mav3rick

Black Widow said:


> The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? These machines are huge, the mobility/agility can be lesser (which some may disagree) than small fighter...
> 
> The Objective of Huge fighters (F15, Su27, MiG31) is, kill them before they know who kill them.. You see the track record of F15, instead of having RCS of 15m2 they never get caught by any Mig...



F-15's never got caught by any Mig or Sukhoi because of the inferior quality of Russian Jets/Equipment as compared to American Jets/Equipment. It's that simple.



Black Widow said:


> Good explanation... but there are some glitch
> 1. In 65 India was in bad shape (due to chinese attack,) our defence was weak, very weak. Ur generals saw it opportunity and mounted Operation Gibraltor. You had newer weapons from USA , Still we had good fight.
> 2. In 71 , ask your generals what happened..  They can either lie or hide there face.
> 
> In any war India never used entire airforce against PAF... Even in future (god forbid) India will use selective squadron against PAF, not entire 230 odd MKI...
> 
> 
> We will not fight "World War III" with you....



1. China/India war in 1962 was but a small battle, you cannot take that as an excuse.
2. We did ask them and they told us to ask the same of Mujeeb who said the Indians were hiding behind while the mukti bahini were taking hits.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## SQ8

surya kiran said:


> The 2 operators and the range part are very valid arguments. The ability to surprise an enemy from a different path is as good as stealth (ok now please nobody say I am saying MKI has stealth.)
> 
> But, don't you think, that radars of the aircrafts also play an important role? Have read all sorts of stuff on the radar on board the MKI, but, none on what its actual capabilities maybe. Isn't this a more dangerous point, since, its not known (or maybe just not known in the public domain)?
> 
> Another point I keep hearing is that an MKI may direct other fighters with the help of its radar to a target? Will this not be a tactical advantage? But, then again, will not this be useful only in the interception phase, since then you are flying over your own turf. Another point may be that the planes may be detected by an Airborne Sytem across the border. So how does this come into play? If they were on an offensive mission they may anyway get detected by ground based radar?



radar's do play a critical role, but their employment strategy is also relevant.
The MKI's radar is a powerhouse...and with the AESA should be able to see pretty much everything and provide the IAF an excellent picture in lieu of AEW. However, in terms of engagement range.. the Radar provides a lesser advantage since the proximity of bases and the weapon ranges along with both sides having an integrated C4I system leaves that radar capability providing a lesser advantage as compared to say the eastern front.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> Fair enough. There will be no J-10B's until IAF begins induction of Rafale. Why invest in anything unless the thing it is meant to counter is actually operational.



IAF has selected Rafale as the winner for the contract to be signed for 126 MMRCA.




> If only the size of radars was everything! Anyway, as far as the performance is concerned, the MKI would spot the JFT (even with it's super huge radar) about the same time that JFT would spot the MKI (after all these huge radars have massive signature, major drawback). And then the game will be missile v/s jammers. Not a really strong story for the MKI especially if it is inside JFT territory where JFT enjoys support of AWEACS/ground based EW/ECM/ECCM assets along with SAM sites.



Not only size... power and altogether a generation ahead(phased array).
No It won't.
Which AWACS is integrated with JF-17 ?
What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?
What SAM sites ? other than spada 2000 ?
You can keep on with the all good things and whatever comes in those wet dreams but for once lets get real.




> Perhaps, if you did a bit of research?



Why don't you show your research ?





> The justification put forth by your military elite and country leaders in general is that of acquisitions and developments of Military infrastructure in Pakistan & in China. Your position is highly ridiculous, at best.



It hardly is/has been... It has got more to do with what the security requirements are rather than what Pakistan or China inducts or develop.





> Even if I do accept your version and accept that Russia was stupid enough to do what you say it did, Buk/TOR SAM systems are even more outdated, yet they fared without opposition from Jammers that were carried by Russian Jets.
> 
> By the way, if Georgia was indeed the dumping ground of outdated Soviet weaponry, the Russian systems are further shamed as it was the Russian jets that were unable to Jam Georgian SAM sites.



How can the Russian Jets jam anything in Georgia If they are flying without ECM and Jamming pods ? Not even anti-radiation missiles were used... The Jets used(Su 25/24)hardly carry a proper radar... even lacking proper countermeasures against enemy missiles.
The on slot was as out dated as the airdefense.





> Ok. Although, I am not aware of any such encounter.



You search on Internet infact right here in this forum.





> All I have said is that Russians rely on salvos of multiple simultaneous engagements to prop up probability of a kill while the Americans fire a single missile for a still higher kill probability. And this doctrine also means that the Jet armed with Russian missiles will have to carry twice the number of Missile that it's opponents carry.



multiple missile increase the probability of kill.... now since you are saying that you don't know about any Russian BVR kill how do you conclude on what they rely ?
Not necessarily a Mig29 designed to kill a F-15 carries about half the ammo.





> I could not find a single Russian BVR kill registered anywhere!



I gave the links some post ago.
It was a Mig29 and a B-52(damaged).



> And who cares if the AIM-120C5's are retired stock (as opposed to what they really are)......we'd even take retired American F-16's if they would sell them to us any day over the MKI's



Thats your opinion... I would rather have the outdated Mig21 as It ensures no restrictions on whon to use and where to use.. as against a US F-16 for which you need permission.



If redundancy was the main objective then perhaps yes. However, with the reliability of current Jet engines, cost of redundancy is too high. The only thing that could be taken in to account is the Thrust:Weight ratio.[/QUOTE]



Mav3rick said:


> Fair enough. There will be no J-10B's until IAF begins induction of Rafale. Why invest in anything unless the thing it is meant to counter is actually operational.



IAF has selected Rafale as the winner for the contract to be signed for 126 MMRCA.




> If only the size of radars was everything! Anyway, as far as the performance is concerned, the MKI would spot the JFT (even with it's super huge radar) about the same time that JFT would spot the MKI (after all these huge radars have massive signature, major drawback). And then the game will be missile v/s jammers. Not a really strong story for the MKI especially if it is inside JFT territory where JFT enjoys support of AWEACS/ground based EW/ECM/ECCM assets along with SAM sites.



Not only size... power and altogether a generation ahead(phased array).
No It won't.
Which AWACS is integrated with JF-17 ?
What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?
What SAM sites ? other than spada 2000 ?
You can keep on with the all good things and whatever comes in those wet dreams but for once lets get real.




> Perhaps, if you did a bit of research?



Why don't you show your research ?





> The justification put forth by your military elite and country leaders in general is that of acquisitions and developments of Military infrastructure in Pakistan & in China. Your position is highly ridiculous, at best.



It hardly is/has been... It has got more to do with what the security requirements are rather than what Pakistan or China inducts or develop.





> Even if I do accept your version and accept that Russia was stupid enough to do what you say it did, Buk/TOR SAM systems are even more outdated, yet they fared without opposition from Jammers that were carried by Russian Jets.
> 
> By the way, if Georgia was indeed the dumping ground of outdated Soviet weaponry, the Russian systems are further shamed as it was the Russian jets that were unable to Jam Georgian SAM sites.



How can the Russian Jets jam anything in Georgia If they are flying without ECM and Jamming pods ? Not even anti-radiation missiles were used... The Jets used(Su 25/24)hardly carry a proper radar... even lacking proper countermeasures against enemy missiles.
The on slot was as out dated as the airdefense.





> Ok. Although, I am not aware of any such encounter.



You search on Internet infact right here in this forum.





> All I have said is that Russians rely on salvos of multiple simultaneous engagements to prop up probability of a kill while the Americans fire a single missile for a still higher kill probability. And this doctrine also means that the Jet armed with Russian missiles will have to carry twice the number of Missile that it's opponents carry.



multiple missile increase the probability of kill.... now since you are saying that you don't know about any Russian BVR kill how do you conclude on what they rely ?
Not necessarily a Mig29 designed to kill a F-15 carries about half the ammo.





> I could not find a single Russian BVR kill registered anywhere!



I gave the links some post ago.
It was a Mig29 and a B-52(damaged).



> And who cares if the AIM-120C5's are retired stock (as opposed to what they really are)......we'd even take retired American F-16's if they would sell them to us any day over the MKI's



Thats your opinion... I would rather have the outdated Mig21 as It ensures no restrictions on whon to use and where to use.. as against a US F-16 for which you need permission.



If redundancy was the main objective then perhaps yes. However, with the reliability of current Jet engines, cost of redundancy is too high. The only thing that could be taken in to account is the Thrust:Weight ratio.[/QUOTE]

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Manticore

Stop personal attacks and off topic posting


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> IAF has selected Rafale as the winner for the contract to be signed for 126 MMRCA.



Yes but the award has yet to be awarded.....deliveries and training is a matter in some distance too. You will see swift reaction from our side once acquisition begins.





DARKY said:


> Not only size... power and altogether a generation ahead(phased array).
> No It won't.
> Which AWACS is integrated with JF-17 ?
> What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?
> What SAM sites ? other than spada 2000 ?
> You can keep on with the all good things and whatever comes in those wet dreams but for once lets get real.



Lol.....you like repeating nonsense.
Yes it will, probably even sooner.
All that are in service and more.
Google
Spada is the tip of the iceberg.





DARKY said:


> Why don't you show your research ?



And invest time, on you?? Why don't you do a bit of research, for your own self?





DARKY said:


> It hardly is/has been... It has got more to do with what the security requirements are rather than what Pakistan or China inducts or develop.



Right!! Do you, even yourself believe that?





DARKY said:


> How can the Russian Jets jam anything in Georgia If they are flying without ECM and Jamming pods ? Not even anti-radiation missiles were used... The Jets used(Su 25/24)hardly carry a proper radar... even lacking proper countermeasures against enemy missiles.
> The on slot was as out dated as the airdefense.



Reading Wiki again? Anyway, the Russian Jammers are crap, all that you can rely on are some Israeli Jammers (not available on all MKI's).





DARKY said:


> You search on Internet infact right here in this forum.



I did, but still cannot find any such encounter where the MKI had supposedly completed it's mission before being 'escorted' out 





DARKY said:


> multiple missile increase the probability of kill.... now since you are saying that you don't know about any Russian BVR kill how do you conclude on what they rely ?
> Not necessarily a Mig29 designed to kill a F-15 carries about half the ammo.



I am saying that there has never been a Russian BVR kill!!! Not a single one! How's that my friend? I am also saying that the Russians rely on missile salvos because their missiles are not reliable enough for a single shot single kill probability or any probability above 0.7, They have to usually fire 4 missiles for a probability kill of 0.8 or greater. The Americans achieve that probability with a single Missile!





DARKY said:


> I gave the links some post ago.
> It was a Mig29 and a B-52(damaged).



I found no such link, not only that....I couldn't find any confirmed kills of any Russian BVR Missile anywhere!





DARKY said:


> Thats your opinion... I would rather have the outdated Mig21 as It ensures no restrictions on whon to use and where to use.. as against a US F-16 for which you need permission.



There would be no restrictions on use of F-16's if a war is thrust upon us. That's all that matters.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> JF-17 is not designed to take on MKI's. Agreed.
> 
> However, in a conflict, JF-17 will ultimately have to take on the MKI's.
> 
> Hence, a comparison is in order.



May be you are right JF-17 might have to go against MKI's but have you guys ever thought there is a very simple way to take MKI's down. If I had one of those babies behind me drop down to 200 AGL and let the Subedar-Major take care of it with a Man-portable air-defense systems simple. Just because you are in a Fighter doesn't mean you have to go head to head. New Warfare or Art of war has changed a lot in the past 10 years.
I have seen one of those simulations they are pretty good 80% of the fighters who entered the 20 mile radius called the CIRCLE were shot down by the ground forces and it showed that the enemy fighter were so distracted by the ground forces that the hunter became the hunted, When the pilot entered the RED ZONE the CIRCLE he quickly went on the offensive and was taken down. Plan old tactics 2 fighter go into enemy Air Space finger them and lower then into the CIRCLE. You can do it only once the enemy will not fall for it again so you move your position. Ironic how ground forces needed Air power and now Air power needs ground forces.

Reactions: Like Like:
10


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Yeti said:


> You got to remember the SU-30 the Chinese have is a whole diffrent kind of bird to mki in many respects so you can't say it is a fact when you have not faced the mki until that happens nothing is certain.
> 
> 
> One example is the *Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft *


tell me are their RCS same , if su-30 would have been stealthy it would surely have been a threat , but now it is not that much threat to us , our jets can easily detect it from about 100km away that,s what they need ... in battle they will need range of 50 km or little more


jammer doesn't guarantee that your jet is secure , work has been done on it , and we have advance quality anti jamming pods from china , remember china too have access to this technology


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

once again , su-30 mki is very good fighter of its class but dear it,s not invincible for us , so plz come out of extreme euphoria


----------



## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> It's not the nationalities that I have a problem with, honestly. You wouldn't believe the number of close Indian friends I have. It's the continuous lies and propaganda that sort of puts me off some of you guys as if anything could have been achieved alone. I'd much rather we all stay real.



Its a load of hogwash mate.. Let me rewrite what you posted..



Mav3rick said:


> Especially when some *cheap, used up excuse of a country* claims victory while the actual victor stays on the side lines!



If thats not abusing nationalities, then surely you are not able to express what you want to say. 

I could as easily have abused Pakistan and trust me, there are a bunch of more backable adjectives that I can pull up for your country, but meh, wont make much of a difference...


----------



## EzioAltaïr

Mav3rick said:


> That may be the answer to Indian acquisition of Rafale (if it does indeed materialize in this decade!). Answer to MKI is our JF-17! As a purely defensive power (atleast initially while the numerical odds are in favor of the opposition), JF-17's would be complemented by AWEACS & SAM Systems as well as ground based EW/ECM/ECCM systems.
> 
> As the Indians boast of the actual power of the BARS radar on MKI's and it's classified performance, the performance of radars on JF-17's is also highly classified and so are the problems of both of these systems.....well atleast the problems of JF-17's radar, if any, are yet classified unlike those of SU-30MKI's that were evaluated and rejected by the Chinese!! No wonder IAF is in such a rush to upgrade the Radars on their MKI's.
> 
> Also, note the performance of Russian Jammers on their jets in the Russia/Georgia war in which the Russians were unable to jam their own SAM systems!! No wonder the Chinese have to further advance and modify almost all their acquisitions as most are unreliable. Only the Jets with Israeli pods hold threat, others hardly any jamming worth another look. And I will not even bother to write about the Indian pods!
> 
> It's yet no wonder still that the Russian Jets have to carry so many AA missiles whilst the opposition is considerably satisfied with half that on their fighters. Furthermore, is there a single example of a Russian BVR score........the icing here is that the PAF had always been aware of the poor performance of Russian BVR missiles and hence their comfort in not acquiring it until the purchase of AIM-120C5! And the whole world is aware of the ratio of Jets downed in head to head contests.



Really? JF-17 vs Su 30 MKI? 

And what makes you think the Bars is inferior to the KLJ-7? The Bars can track while scan 15 targets, engage four of 'em simultaneously. The KLJ can TWS 10 targets and engage 2. And you just see the range, to figure out which one is superior. 

And we don't even use the Russian jammers, we use Indian ones. 

And the JF-17 can't use AIM 120s AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong here. The only PAF plane that has AMRAAMs, is F-16 right?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

Some Southies (South Asians) are getting hot, heavy & puerile on this topic and straying farther from the facts.

So here is my FACT CHECK.

-"USA will not give you spares in a war scenario" - Did not realize Victoria Nuland had a new assistant. If I was an Indian trying to _psyche out_ the Paks, I would fret more over Indian feet-dragging over CISMOA and Interoperability issues.

-Some over-enthusiastic guy mentioned AESA & Su-30 MKI (NATO CS: Flanker). Not true, it is a PESA.

-Someone said AMRAAM Aim-120C5 is retired?- 120C5 is a very *potent *weapon system and part of US inventories. If I was a Flanker flyboy packing AMRAAMSKIs, I would not like it if someone fired a live Aim-120C5 at me....make for a bad day!

-"At Red Flag we did not use our Main Radar or our Data Link " - Why? The Su-30 has the same radar as Malay Su-30MKMs, Algerian Su-30 MKAs. Anyone can fingerprint their signatures. In fact the french sent their Rafales to RED fLAG to snoop on your Flankers. Ironic huh? BTW how is you Flanker Data Link working with Israeli radars?

-Now for the other side. There is a video on 'The Aviationist.com' of a Typhoon cleaning a Viper's clock in DACT WVR. That is in direct response to PAF bragging about Typhoon shots. I am interested in what PAF pilots have to say about that..?


Back on Topic:

Best antidote for Su-30MKI is another Flanker. It could be a advanced chinese re-interpretation of the Flanker as in J11B or J15 or some such iteration. PAF would not have to buy in numbers but a modest amount as AGGRESSOR squadron and give it to ...what used to be called CCS or some such thing. 

If the Great Kayani actually has developed an understanding with Comrade Putin, then maybe Pakistan can get 6-18 Su-35 SuperFlankers with 117s and AESA radars. Such a training tool is priceless and will send a chill down the enemy's spine.......

Another solution is to negotiate with incoming Secy of State, and nag him about giving a few more Vipers with *"V"* upgrades. Taiwan is getting them as the first foreign customer.

Another option is to take a billion or so dollars out of JF-17\FC-1 program and begin a staggered purchase of Typhoons; six a-piece at a time. 

Of course, I would sit tight till Indians wrap the French deal first. 

My BEST solution is to use the money to establish enduring infrastructural links like highway, railroads, pipelines and power-lines with Central Asian region. If global commerce comes to depend on Pakistan as the major conduit for stability and prosperity of countries like Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Azeri republic then extremely powerful forces will come into play to neutralize any Flanker threats........

Peace be upon all on this happy day!


----------



## drunken-monke

Muradk said:


> May be you are right JF-17 might have to go against MKI's but have you guys ever thought there is a very simple way to take MKI's down. If I had one of those babies behind me drop down to 200 AGL and let the Subedar-Major take care of it with a Man-portable air-defense systems simple. Just because you are in a Fighter doesn't mean you have to go head to head. New Warfare or Art of war has changed a lot in the past 10 years.
> I have seen one of those simulations they are pretty good 80% of the fighters who entered the 20 mile radius called the CIRCLE were shot down by the ground forces and it showed that the enemy fighter were so distracted by the ground forces that the hunter became the hunted, When the pilot entered the RED ZONE the CIRCLE he quickly went on the offensive and was taken down. Plan old tactics 2 fighter go into enemy Air Space finger them and lower then into the CIRCLE. You can do it only once the enemy will not fall for it again so you move your position. Ironic how ground forces needed Air power and now Air power needs ground forces.



Dear Sir,

How is your health... Its been quite a long since last time had you on the forum..

Sir, all this talk about the RCS of MKI, but how good the missiles of PAF will be against EW of IAF... Are there any counter measures to deny jamming of radars with PAF.. 

Thanks in advance for the answer..


----------



## rockstarIN

> -"At Red Flag we did not use our Main Radar or our Data Link " - Why? The Su-30 has the same radar as Malay Su-30MKMs, Algerian Su-30 MKAs. Anyone can fingerprint their signatures. In fact the french sent their Rafales to RED fLAG to snoop on your Flankers. Ironic huh? BTW how is you Flanker Data Link working with Israeli radars?
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-62.html#ixzz2Fze2qJ32



I do not know that Algerians or Malaysians came to Red flag. I do not think so. The BARS Radar was in training mode and the possible use of some technology in PAK FA, we did not use it. We knew that Rafales were always tailing MKIs during Red flag, it is understandable that this was the first time MKIs going out to meet them. After all, all these excercises are great experiences. 

All our jets use our own data link, including MKI. So they were not connected to the western AWACS. Also we use Israli radars only only navy fighter jets now. 




> y BEST solution is to use the money to establish enduring infrastructural links like highway, railroads, pipelines and power-lines with Central Asian region. If global commerce comes to depend on Pakistan as the major conduit for stability and prosperity of countries like Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Azeri republic then extremely powerful forces will come into play to neutralize any Flanker threats........
> 
> Peace be upon all on this happy day!
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-62.html#ixzz2Fzg54hJO



Thats excellent, but we already constructed a good road across Afganistan and financing a port at Iran to connect it. So we can do business without their help.


----------



## Storm Force

India signs for 42 more SU30MKI kits today

BBC News - India, Russia sign new defence deals

This confirms the latest batch ordered TAKING su30mki nos to 270 fighters by 2017 

That is a lot of firepower and HUGE TRUST in this machine which has been in service for a decade now. 

coming back to the thread can we please stick to REALISTIC options this talk of J20/J31 is not happening 

PAF has 2 options 

MORE F16s bock 52S (18 additonal on the table) I ASK WHAT YOU WAITING FOR 70% OF YOU SWEAR by the F16/52 being the best counter to MKI...

and 

FC20/J10 = Again where is PAF with this deal ?????THE fighter has been flying in PLAAF since 2005 and the MKI threat is now massive 150+ AND FRM above BBC news is growing even bigger WITH 42 MORE KITS ORDERED for assembly in india


----------



## wakapdf

In this age of BVRs, our JF17s are more than capable of taking care of Su30MKIs. No need to waste money on American tech that comes with warnings and strings attached. I say invest in jf17 block 1 and hopefully 2 variant. These beauties will blow Su30 out of the sky


----------



## MilSpec

Storm Force said:


> FC20/J10 = Again where is PAF with this deal ?????THE fighter has been flying in PLAAF since 2005 and the MKI threat is now massive 150+ AND FRM above BBC news is growing even bigger WITH 42 MORE KITS ORDERED for assembly in india



Will happen when PAF deems the right time, or we might see a completely new fighter LWF new gen fighter custom built for PAF closely based on the j20/31 design aspects



wakapdf said:


> In this age of BVRs, our JF17s are more than capable of taking care of Su30MKIs. No need to waste money on American tech that comes with warnings and strings attached. I say invest in jf17 block 1 and hopefully 2 variant. These beauties will blow Su30 out of the sky



It's not just about defensive attributes of countering MKi but also offensive capabilities without AWACS cover to deep into the indian territory.


----------



## wakapdf

sandy_3126 said:


> It's not just about defensive attributes of countering MKi but also offensive capabilities without AWACS cover to deep into the indian territory.



We dont need to counter MKIs in Indian territory. Our doctrine is defensive based. ''Dont come in our air-space or we will shoot you down''. No plans to enter deep into Indian airspace. For that we have missiles...


----------



## MilSpec

wakapdf said:


> We dont need to counter MKIs in Indian territory. Our doctrine is defensive based. ''Dont come in our air-space or we will shoot you down''. No plans to enter deep into Indian airspace. For that we have missiles...



If that rhetoric is shared by your military... good for you...


----------



## Storm Force

Sandy


> Will happen when PAF deems the right time, or we might see a completely new fighter LWF new gen fighter custom built for PAF closely based on the j20/31 design aspects
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-62.html#ixzz2G01uAiak



Whislt PAF wait for this LWF based on J20 (10 YEARS) WHO TACKLES 270 SU30MKI ????

The threat is here TODAY not 2020 WHEN RAFALE & FGFA have arrived


----------



## wakapdf

sandy_3126 said:


> If that rhetoric is shared by your military... good for you...



Apparently, it is. Dont get me wrong, I am up for striking deep into enemy's heartland but, sadly, we cant. We cant match IAF's numbers specially when it comes to striking deep. Sure PAF pilots can try kamikaze attacks but the turnout wont be good. IAF would annihilate us in their airspace (SAMs and numbers). Thus, purely defensive


----------



## abdulbarijan

Storm Force said:


> Sandy
> 
> Whislt PAF wait for this LWF based on J20 (10 YEARS) *WHO TACKLES 270 SU30MKI* ????
> 
> The threat is here *TODAY* not 2020 WHEN RAFALE & FGFA have arrived






Storm Force said:


> India signs for 42 more SU30MKI kits today
> 
> BBC News - India, Russia sign new defence deals
> 
> *This confirms the latest batch ordered TAKING su30mki nos to 270 fighters by 2017 *
> 
> That is a lot of firepower and HUGE TRUST in this machine which has been in service for a decade now.
> 
> coming back to the thread can we please stick to REALISTIC options this talk of J20/J31 is not happening
> 
> PAF has 2 options
> 
> MORE F16s bock 52S (18 additonal on the table) I ASK WHAT YOU WAITING FOR 70% OF YOU SWEAR by the F16/52 being the best counter to MKI...
> 
> and
> 
> FC20/J10 = Again where is PAF with this deal ?????THE fighter has been flying in PLAAF since 2005 and the MKI threat is now massive 150+ AND FRM above BBC news is growing even bigger WITH 42 MORE KITS ORDERED for assembly in india



Do I need to say something 

On one hand there is the *"today talk"* but when it comes to boosting about the fleet suddenly the claims come that of the* "projected" *ones after 2017 ....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

Muradk said:


> May be you are right JF-17 might have to go against MKI's but have you guys ever thought there is a very simple way to take MKI's down. If I had one of those babies behind me drop down to 200 AGL and let the Subedar-Major take care of it with a Man-portable air-defense systems simple. Just because you are in a Fighter doesn't mean you have to go head to head. New Warfare or Art of war has changed a lot in the past 10 years.
> I have seen one of those simulations they are pretty good 80% of the fighters who entered the 20 mile radius called the CIRCLE were shot down by the ground forces and it showed that the enemy fighter were so distracted by the ground forces that the hunter became the hunted, When the pilot entered the RED ZONE the CIRCLE he quickly went on the offensive and was taken down. Plan old tactics 2 fighter go into enemy Air Space finger them and lower then into the CIRCLE. You can do it only once the enemy will not fall for it again so you move your position. Ironic how ground forces needed Air power and now Air power needs ground forces.




What if they shot down your own JET??? lol then why don't you bring thousands of AGL instead of bringing costly fighter jets... huh...


----------



## MilSpec

Storm Force said:


> Sandy
> 
> Whislt PAF wait for this LWF based on J20 (10 YEARS) WHO TACKLES 270 SU30MKI ????
> 
> The threat is here TODAY not 2020 WHEN RAFALE & FGFA have arrived



Answer: there is no need for a counter, Indian political leadership is impotent and will not militarily engage pakistan, PAF knows that too hence they are not in a rush. 

Offensive capabilities are substantially marred as all our strike platforms cannot be optimally used as substantial squadrons of MKI and M29 will have to stay back for CAP, unless LCAMK2 is completely capable of handling point defense role against all intruders freeing up all MKI/M29s/m2k to do what they do the best. And from the looks of LCA mk2 this will take another 10 years. 

On PDF, most members think PAF has all aces up there sleeves and IAF shows all it cards. Our black projects are so well guarded that no one gets even a whiff of them. ******************** there are two more jammers on board MKI and another platform which I wont go into. As far as BVR is concerned, all of Mig29 and MKI missiles and variants are not in the public domain. 

As far as defensive capabilities of MKI vis a vis PAF is concerned, I am not loosing any sleep.

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## arp2041

sandy_3126 said:


> Answer: there is no need for a counter, Indian political leadership is impotent and will not militarily engage pakistan, PAF knows that too hence they are not in a rush.



I hope by this statement u are not asking to start a war with a nuclear armed country, though we are conventionally way ahead of Pakistan but a war will only put a break on India Shining story for few years for sure, but that does not mean that any 26/11 type attack will go without any Indian retaliation as than public pressure would be too great to handle by the GOI.



abdulbarijan said:


> [/SIZE][/COLOR][/U]
> 
> 
> Do I need to say something
> 
> On one hand there is the *"today talk"* but when it comes to boosting about the fleet suddenly the claims come that of the* "projected" *ones after 2017 ....



yes IAF currently don't have 272 sukhois but they have close to 200 MKIs with addition of 16-20/year.


----------



## MilSpec

arp2041 said:


> I hope by this statement u are not asking to start a war with a nuclear armed country, though we are conventionally way ahead of Pakistan but a war will only put a break on India Shining story for few years for sure, but that does not mean that any 26/11 type attack will go without any Indian retaliation as than public pressure would be too great to handle by the GOI.


One word "Israel"


----------



## Paan Singh

sandy_3126 said:


> Answer: there is no need for a counter, *Indian political leadership is impotent* and will not militarily engage pakistan, PAF knows that too hence they are not in a rush.
> 
> Offensive capabilities are substantially marred as all our strike platforms cannot be optimally used as substantial squadrons of MKI and M29 will have to stay back for CAP, unless LCAMK2 is completely capable of handling point defense role against all intruders freeing up all MKI/M29s/m2k to do what they do the best. And from the looks of LCA mk2 this will take another 10 years.
> 
> On PDF, most members think PAF has all aces up there sleeves and IAF shows all it cards. Our black projects are so well guarded that no one gets even a whiff of them. ******************** there are two more jammers on board MKI and another platform which I wont go into. As far as BVR is concerned, all of Mig29 and MKI missiles and variants are not in the public domain.
> 
> As far as defensive capabilities of MKI vis a vis PAF is concerned, I am not loosing any sleep.



Thats the answer of the whole indian defence.I feel that why we purchase billion dollar arms when we know that they are tied with strings of our own a##holes in parliament...

They make our 1.3 million army as impotent or of no use and same goes with AF and navy....

Now even they cant handle small nations like maldives  

India needs leader not big army who is handled by prostituteees sitting in parliament...

Otherwise RAW is enough to handle our neighbors if given free hand and presently it is handled by our PM who never speaks...


----------



## Srinivas

@TVVELVEMO$ India is not sitting idle while Pakistan develops, India is about to Induct Rafale which will take care of any Chinese or Typoons.

Regarding RED flag exercise the real results and real strategies will never be known and kept secret.


----------



## surya kiran

sandy_3126 said:


> Our black projects are so well guarded that no one gets even a whiff of them.



The less said about the real surveillance and monitoring capabilities of our forces, the better it is. Both visual and electronic. Forget, the armed forces. In case of an emergency, the ability to track, monitor and listen in to real-time conversations over any kind of mobile/wireless communication is a matter of 2 minutes. And this is just the ordinary cop. This I know for a fact. 

The capabilities of the MoD is of a different league for surveillance into enemy airspace.


----------



## arp2041

sandy_3126 said:


> One word "Israel"



But Pakistan cannot be compared to any of it's neighbors be it Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan or even Turkey. 

Israel has an unchallenged air-superiority over Middle-Eastern skies, that's a luxury which we certainly do not enjoy.

Actually ur one word should have been "MOSSAD"


----------



## Paan Singh

arp2041 said:


> I hope by this statement u are not asking to start a war with a nuclear armed country, though we are conventionally way ahead of Pakistan but a war will only put a break on India Shining story for few years for sure, but that does not mean that any 26/11 type attack will go without any Indian retaliation as than public pressure would be too great to handle by the GOI.



Nuclear war is myth and pakistanis use this trick to manipulate western powers and india.
We saw in kargil war who shows that pakistanis dont have blood to use nukes..
Mushy threatened india with nukes but vajpayee clearly said that we will wipe out a nation from map and bring it on....

then mushy sent sharif to U.S to save its a@@ and to take out pakistan from mess.


and now public pressure?

Even pakistan sends more armed men and kill here 20000 on streets,indian govt wont listen...i m sure and i can bet my life on it .

look at the streets of delhi n then see the pressure as u r talking .


----------



## MilSpec

arp2041 said:


> But Pakistan cannot be compared to any of it's neighbors be it Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan or even Turkey.
> 
> Israel has an unchallenged air-superiority over Middle-Eastern skies, that's a luxury which we certainly do not enjoy.
> 
> Actually ur one word should have been "MOSSAD"



It's about the will, Six soldiers abducted and Israel declares war, 200 people butchered and we send dossiers. thats the difference. 

It doesn't matter if we had f22 raptors, our govt would have done crap. 

As far as countering MKI, In defensive role, f16's/Saab Erieye combo will be able to match MKI in offensive role, as far as pure counter is concerned:



sandy_3126 said:


> Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration,
> 
> we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time
> 
> Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time,
> 
> The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettision its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI.
> 
> On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then.
> 
> Its all about planning.


----------



## wakapdf

sandy_3126 said:


> It's about the will, Six soldiers abducted and Israel declares war, 200 people butchered and we send dossiers. thats the difference.
> 
> It doesn't matter if we had f22 raptors, our govt would have done crap.
> 
> As far as countering MKI, In defensive role, f16's/Saab Erieye combo will be able to match MKI in offensive role, as far as pure counter is concerned:



F-16s are useless when it comes to India. USA will block the codes and f-16 wont be able to take off, let alone enter Indian airspace. JF-17 is the key for India's doorstep. Jf17+ Saab/KJ variant are enough for me to sleep happy.

p.s. Israeli jammers on-board MKI are not a secret. We know, We know


----------



## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> The thread is not about how PAF should counter IAF, it's about countering SU30MKI.
> 
> Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration,
> 
> we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time
> 
> Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time,
> 
> The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettision its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI.
> 
> On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then.
> 
> Its all about planning.



Thank you for demonstrating an understanding of aerial warfare to the insane on both sides.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

Sometimes I just wonder.....

@ Mr. Rockstar. "I do not know that Algerians or Malaysians came to Red flag. I do not think so"


Oh! I think so. 
First where did I say those nations had to haul their lumbering Flankies to RED FLAG? Do look up US-Malay Exercise series Cope Taufan 20XX. PAK FA radar is completely different architechture. Do familiarize yourself with that...training mode et.al.
The Israeli radars I was talking about are not the ones you seem to be talking about....read it again.

And regarding the Global Commerce via Pakistan; I was NOT talking about YOU. I meant US, Canada, EU, Brazil, Japan, Korea, Australia etc. And just because it is XMAS, let me clue you in to where I was going with that; once all these countries rely on Pakistan as a business node then they will show their displeasure IF you disrupt their business by sending in your 270 odd flankers to Pakistan. Pakistan would not need weapons but more business to hedge against your threats. But that presupposes the Pakistanis will actually listen to what is being said. You OTOH are free to invest in Iran. Good luck.

@ Mr. Sukhoi_30MKI.
I am glad for you. My missive actually accounts for your French wonder but you seem oblivious to the concept of aggressor fleet.

AND "Regarding RED flag exercise the real results and real strategies will never be known and kept secret."

Do the USAF & Pentagon know? 'cause they give out that information like M&Ms to every Aviation dude with Class XXX clearance.

Ya all have a good one now!! ......even if you do not celebrate.


----------



## EzioAltaïr

wakapdf said:


> We dont need to counter MKIs in Indian territory. Our doctrine is defensive based. ''Dont come in our air-space or we will shoot you down''. No plans to enter deep into Indian airspace. For that we have missiles...



So your army has plans to invade India without air cover?

For the sake of the Pakistani army, I hope you never become a military commander.


----------



## Aphex

sandy_3126 said:


> The thread is not about how PAF should counter IAF, it's about countering SU30MKI.
> 
> Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration,
> 
> we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time
> 
> Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time,
> 
> The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettision its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI.
> 
> On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then.
> 
> Its all about planning.



There is just one problem with your post, pakistan signed an agreement with US saying that they cannot use f-16 as a tactical/interceptor against India and if they do US will terminate all future upgrades and spare parts.


----------



## SQ8

Aphex said:


> There is just one problem with your post, pakistan signed an agreement with US saying that they cannot use f-16 as a tactical/interceptor against India and if they do US will terminate all future upgrades and spare parts.



Nope, all total speculative media bull.


----------



## batmannow

Oscar said:


> Nope, all total speculative media bull.



Why nt make thread sticky!
Thanks


----------



## rockstarIN

sandy_3126 said:


> Answer: there is no need for a counter, Indian political leadership is impotent and will not militarily engage pakistan, PAF knows that too hence they are not in a rush.
> 
> *Offensive capabilities are substantially marred as all our strike platforms cannot be optimally used as substantial squadrons of MKI and M29 will have to stay back for CAP, unless LCAMK2 is completely capable of handling point defense role against all intruders freeing up all MKI/M29s/m2k to do what they do the best.* And from the looks of LCA mk2 this will take another 10 years.
> 
> On PDF, most members think PAF has all aces up there sleeves and IAF shows all it cards. Our black projects are so well guarded that no one gets even a whiff of them. ******************** there are two more jammers on board MKI and another platform which I wont go into. As far as BVR is concerned, all of Mig29 and MKI missiles and variants are not in the public domain.
> 
> As far as defensive capabilities of MKI vis a vis PAF is concerned, I am not loosing any sleep.



We have 100+ Mig-21s which will take care of the point defense in today's scenario. Though there are old and flying coffins, it is BVR capable, (can carry up to 4 so far I remember) have good ECM too. You can't just write it off them as on today. There will be a gap when they gonna retire one by one and LCA coming up so slowly indeed.


----------



## Badbadman

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> Sometimes I just wonder....
> 
> And regarding the Global Commerce via Pakistan; I was NOT talking about YOU. I meant US, Canada, EU, Brazil, Japan, Korea, Australia etc. And just because it is XMAS


Global commerce via pakistan...........
Keep wondering and merry Christmas


----------



## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> Its a load of hogwash mate.. Let me rewrite what you posted..
> 
> If thats not abusing nationalities, then surely you are not able to express what you want to say.
> 
> I could as easily have abused Pakistan and trust me, there are a bunch of more backable adjectives that I can pull up for your country, but meh, wont make much of a difference...



Perhaps, not the best use of words from my side. However, I am not an enemy of somebody who is not an enemy of mine, hope you get my point. Anyway, lets get back to topic.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## v9s

Aphex said:


> There is just one problem with your post, *pakistan signed an agreement with US saying that they cannot use f-16 as a tactical/interceptor against India* and if they do US will terminate all future upgrades and spare parts.



You have to be an imbecile to believe such a thing actually exists.


----------



## Mav3rick

EzioAltaïr;3727795 said:


> Really? JF-17 vs Su 30 MKI?
> 
> And what makes you think the Bars is inferior to the KLJ-7? The Bars can track while scan 15 targets, engage four of 'em simultaneously. The KLJ can TWS 10 targets and engage 2. And you just see the range, to figure out which one is superior.



Lets talk of range, the Bars radar can spot a JFT sized fighter roughly 105km-120km away (head on) and surprise surprise, the JFT can spot the MKI roughly 110km-120km away!





EzioAltaïr;3727795 said:


> And we don't even use the Russian jammers, we use Indian ones.
> 
> And the JF-17 can't use AIM 120s AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong here. The only PAF plane that has AMRAAMs, is F-16 right?



You are replacing Russian Jammers but I am highly skeptical of Indian Jammers. Anyway, I guess they have to be better then Russian Jammers. But the AIM-120C5 and SD-10 Missiles carried on our JF-17's have great resistance to such Jammers.

By the way, did you think we purchased 500 AIM-120C5 for 50 odd F-16's?


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> You are replacing Russian Jammers but I am highly skeptical of Indian Jammers. Anyway, I guess they have to be better then Russian Jammers. But the AIM-120C5 and SD-10 Missiles carried on our JF-17's have great resistance to such Jammers.
> 
> By the way, did you think we purchased 500 AIM-120C5 for 50 odd F-16's?



Yes, as the Americans have only provided you with the missile, not the required source code to pair it with any other radar of Non-American origin.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

sandy_3126 said:


> It's not just about defensive attributes of countering MKi but also offensive capabilities without AWACS cover to deep into the indian territory.



That's where the F-16's come into play with Standoff Missiles or just SRBM/IRBM.



Storm Force said:


> Sandy
> 
> Whislt PAF wait for this LWF based on J20 (10 YEARS) WHO TACKLES 270 SU30MKI ????
> 
> The threat is here TODAY not 2020 WHEN RAFALE & FGFA have arrived



You speak of today yet you do not have 270 MKI's. Either stick to today or speak of the future, stop mixing and matching to your requirement. By the time IAF has 270 MKI's, we will have 150+ JFT's (Block 2 too) as well as those 50 odd F-16's. That's more then enough to be a defensive force under cover of our AWEACS & SAM's as well as ground based EW etc. assets.


----------



## Mav3rick

arp2041 said:


> I hope by this statement u are not asking to start a war with a nuclear armed country, though we are conventionally way ahead of Pakistan but a war will only put a break on India Shining story for few years for sure, *but that does not mean that any 26/11 type attack will go without any Indian retaliation as than public pressure would be too great to handle by the GOI*.



Yeah, I guess this time 2000 Indian soldiers will die during mobilization instead of the 800 odd last time! That's before India unilaterally retreats from the border after being unable cross a single inch of the LoC whilst making all these rhetorical claims of invasion and surgical strikes and retaliation!


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> You speak of today yet you do not have 270 MKI's. Either stick to today or speak of the future, stop mixing and matching to your requirement. By the time IAF has 270 MKI's, we will have 150+ JFT's (Block 2 too) as well as those 50 odd F-16's. That's more then enough to be a defensive force under cover of our AWEACS & SAM's as well as ground based EW etc. assets.



MKI numbers are pretty much near 200, and considering induction of about 20 aircraft per year and 42 Super MKIs imported from Russia, the number of 270+ will be met within 2 years.

While there are only 60+ JF-17s in service, and with a production rate of 20 aircraft per year, it'll take more than 4 years for your stated number of 150+.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> @TVVELVEMO$ India is not sitting idle while Pakistan develops, India is about to Induct Rafale which will take care of any Chinese or Typoons.
> 
> *Regarding RED flag exercise the real results and real strategies will never be known and kept secret.*



And I hope they stay a secret, for your sake! We don't want to publicly humiliate a great potential client now, do we?



EzioAltaïr;3728961 said:


> So your army has plans to invade India without air cover?
> 
> For the sake of the Pakistani army, I hope you never become a military commander.



Where did he even suggest of any Pakistani plans to 'invade' India????


----------



## Mav3rick

Aphex said:


> There is just one problem with your post, pakistan signed an agreement with US saying that they cannot use f-16 as a tactical/interceptor against India and if they do US will terminate all future upgrades and spare parts.



Lol.....read the agreement again. And this time consider the scenario of India attacking Pakistan and not vice versa.



Skull and Bones said:


> MKI numbers are pretty much near 200, and considering induction of about 20 aircraft per year and 42 Super MKIs imported from Russia, the number of 270+ will be met within 2 years.
> 
> While there are only 60+ JF-17s in service, and with a production rate of 20 aircraft per year, it'll take more than 4 years for your stated number of 150+.



Well, you forgot 1 thing. The Chinese can produce Jets faster then the Russians


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> Well, you forgot 1 thing. The Chinese can produce Jets faster then the Russians



Not denying that, but without any foreign customer and PLAAF not inducting any, they don't have any monetary benefit of running a JF-17 production line.


----------



## Mav3rick

Skull and Bones said:


> Not denying that, but without any foreign customer and PLAAF not inducting any, they don't have any monetary benefit of running a JF-17 production line.



That may be your understanding. Ours is that both the countries are working hard to fulfill the requirements of PAF (150-250 Jets) and are seriously negotiating with many countries on the sale of JF-17's after internal orders are exhausted. There is also serious development being committed to JF-17's (Block II & Block III) as well as development of a twin seat trainer/fighter Jet.


----------



## Storm Force

Mav3RICK

I can gurantee that THE IAF will sleep very well knowing the PAF are spending all their time, money and effort on securing 150+ JFT Thunders.

WHAT would worry the PANTS off indians is IF THE PAF ever found the FUNDS secure 150 F16 lock 52S or 150 AESA equipped FC20...

JFT is a excellent programme we all acknowledge its VERY LOW COST allows PAF to acquire a BVR capable fighter in very large nos. 

BUT it was never designed top FIGHT against a mid 4th generation fighter in a secario where it will be OUTNUMBERED. 

its radar power is lightweight by virtue of size and a MSA attena is a slow processor on yiour JFT ... YOU cant match the massive phassed array processor of a BARS PESA radar. The avionics and jammers are world class from israel & france and the AOA is giving the mki huge flexibility.

i am astonished that people think AWACS suppoprt & JFT combined is a credible deterrant..

I BELIEVE THE ATTITUDE IS " LETS HOPE ITS ENOUGH " to seriously damage any indian onslaught "

People talking about JFT block 2 & 3. SOME OF YOU wil be disapointed with both the time ot takes and the overall improvement that JFT can make.

WE are talking about a lightweight fighter its radar its jammers and avionics wll be limited in SIZE and power

More importantly to add compsites and Aesa radars will require HUGE investment and time. 

whislt PAF can afford 150+ JFT @ $15m each 

CAN IT AFFORD 150 JFT @ £25M each 

maveruick thinks PAF will have 150JFT in 4 years with 2 block improvemenmts.

4 YEARS IS TOO SHORT to make significant improvements

AS THE JFT project director quoted JFT currently is a 3.5 gen fighter and 4 years away from becoming a mature reliable platfiorm. 

LOOK AT THE TYPHOON & RAFALE & GRIPEN & J10 projects they will a decade into service and their block upgrades dont arrive til 2015 and these nations have resouces and experience we can only dream about.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Aphex

After Su-30 MKI gets the Super Sukhoi upgrade then you guys won't have chance to counter the plane with plane of your own. You guys probably have to rely on SAMs and other air defense. But really in a war scenario would kinda be useless especially if India moves far into pakistan territory then we would be able to capture some on your air defenses. JFT is a plane that is equal to the lca tejas and f16 would be good against mig 29 but f16 would probably beat it .


----------



## INDIAISM

I don't know how PAF can counter the 
Su30 Mki....But i definatly know how Pakistan
Govt can counter Su30 Mki and that is by not indulging in any kind of war against India...
Simple Na Hoga Bas Na Bajegi Bansuri...


----------



## chauvunist

INDIAISM said:


> I don't know how PAF can counter the
> Su30 Mki....But i definatly know how Pakistan
> Govt can counter Su30 Mki and that is by not indulging in any kind of war against India...
> Simple Na Hoga Bas Na Bajegi Bansuri...



Yeah and we saw your Govt's response in 2001-02 and after Mumbai attacks...kinda of wise response of your govt otherwise you know what would have happened...


----------



## Storm Force

65 pages into this thread and i think we can summarise 

THE SU30MKI threat is massive and growing year in year out...

The are numerous options out there that can counter the MKI even if outnumbered BUT that are not avialable to PAF due to financial limitations & political issues... 

It leaves EITHER THE JFT and attempts to UPGRADE this as quickly as possible and get the nos up asap and THEN IN 7-10 YEARS try and get the J31 fifth gen figghhter from CAC

OR to go out and get the SOFT LOANS for J10/FC20 today and invest in yet another 4th gen platform.

IMO the PAF are stil deciding which route is best ..

FOR PAF money is a big issue which means each decision has to be critically assessed and well thought out.


----------



## Yeti

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> tell me are their RCS same , if su-30 would have been stealthy it would surely have been a threat , but now it is not that much threat to us , our jets can easily detect it from about 100km away that,s what they need ... in battle they will need range of 50 km or little more
> 
> 
> jammer doesn't guarantee that your jet is secure , work has been done on it , and we have advance quality anti jamming pods from china , remember china too have access to this technology




It is impossible to say what the outcome will be without ever having faced each other also there are various Electronic countermeasures the Su-30MKI has in place not to mention the Bars radar which is very powerful and can also act as a mini-AWACS. A fighter is only as good as the weapons it holds that is something which is not even being discussed on here.


----------



## selvan33

chauvunist said:


> Yeah and we saw your Govt's response in 2001-02 and after Mumbai attacks...kinda of wise response of your govt otherwise you know what would have happened...



we are not afraid of you. but we want to develop our nation.that's why we are avoiding war. but not like you peoples. you wont develop your own nation and also you are not allowing other peoples to develop.


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> Yes but the award has yet to be awarded.....deliveries and training is a matter in some distance too. You will see swift reaction from our side once acquisition begins.




yeah the swift reaction against 200+ Su 30MKI can be already seen.





> Lol.....you like repeating nonsense.
> Yes it will, probably even sooner.
> All that are in service and more.
> Google
> Spada is the tip of the iceberg.




Yeah sense is non sense there in your country and for you It seems.
Bars are a generation ahead of KLJ-7 simply due to the fact that it uses a phased array antenna while KLJ-7 uses slotted planar array which is mechanically steered.
The Figures for KLJ-7 stands at 75Km for 3m^2 in look up and 35km for the same in look down mode.
While for BARS its stands at 220Km for 3m^2... Besides that It the radars stand replacement with a more powerful Zhuk-ASE which would give figures of upto 400km for 3m^2 targets.
However It is useless explaining such things as your madarsa educated brain would find that funny and nonsense.

It isn't as of now.. and you didn't mention which AWE&C.

I asked "*What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?*"
since you claimed you prove... or is it done otherwise there in Pakistan.

And Su30 is Just the tip... there are death stars and Aladdin's lamp with our airforce.



> And invest time, on you?? Why don't you do a bit of research, for your own self?



For your own good.
How can Know what you collected and conclude about such.





> Right!! Do you, even yourself believe that?



Yeah is there any problem with that ?
Or is it wrong according to your madarssa logic ?






> Reading Wiki again? Anyway, the *Russian Jammers are crap*, all that you can rely on are some Israeli Jammers (not available on all MKI's).



I cannot help you on that... you simply seem to defy Physics here the SAP518/SAP14 combo which is more powerful than the ALQ jammers and ECM present on Growler is somehow crap.
Israeli jammers are available for Mig21bisons even and they did score kills on F-15/16s using that.. during cope Indias.




> I did, but still cannot find any such encounter where the MKI had supposedly completed it's mission before being 'escorted' out



How can a destroyer escort a supersonic fighter... same with a SAM battery... are you all right ?





> I am saying that there has* never been a Russian BVR kill*!!! Not a single one! How's that my friend? I am also saying that the Russians rely on missile salvos because their missiles are not reliable enough for a single shot single kill probability or any probability above 0.7, They have to usually fire 4 missiles for a probability kill of 0.8 or greater. The Americans achieve that probability with a single Missile!




USAF has fired 13 AIM120 BVR and achieved success on only 6 a success rate of 45% much higher than your claimed estimate about Russians BVRs.




> I found no such link, not only that....I couldn't find any confirmed kills of any Russian BVR Missile anywhere!



You'll find only when you look for it
Its at the post #906.





> There would be no restrictions on use of F-16's if a war is thrust upon us. That's all that matters.


 
You cannot datalink F-16block52 with your swedish or chinese AWACS is one example of it... where is the trust ?


----------



## Bratva

DARKY said:


> yeah the swift reaction against 200+ Su 30MKI can be already seen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah sense is non sense there in your country and for you It seems.
> Bars are a generation ahead of KLJ-7 simply due to the fact that it uses a phased array antenna while KLJ-7 uses slotted planar array which is mechanically steered.
> The Figures for KLJ-7 stands at 75Km for 3m^2 in look up and 35km for the same in look down mode.
> While for BARS its stands at 220Km for 3m^2... Besides that It the radars stand replacement with a more powerful Zhuk-ASE which would give figures of upto 400km for 3m^2 targets.
> However It is useless explaining such things as your madarsa educated brain would find that funny and nonsense.
> 
> It isn't as of now.. and you didn't mention which AWE&C.
> 
> I asked "*What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?*"
> since you claimed you prove... or is it done otherwise there in Pakistan.
> 
> And Su30 is Just the tip... there are death stars and Aladdin's lamp with our airforce.
> 
> 
> 
> For your own good.
> How can Know what you collected and conclude about such.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah is there any problem with that ?
> Or is it wrong according to your madarssa logic ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot help you on that... you simply seem to defy Physics here the SAP518/SAP14 combo which is more powerful than the ALQ jammers and ECM present on Growler is somehow crap.
> Israeli jammers are available for Mig21bisons even and they did score kills on F-15/16s using that.. during cope Indias.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can a destroyer escort a supersonic fighter... same with a SAM battery... are you all right ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USAF has fired 13 BVR and achieved success on only 6 a success rate of 45% much higher than your claimed estimate about Russians BVRs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'll find only when you look for it
> Its at the post #906.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot datalink F-16block52 with your swedish or chinese AWACS is one example of it... where is the trust ?




DARKY, KLJ-7 official range is 135 KM according to recent updated stats.. You should keep yourself updated more. Instead of spreading BS here and there.

Who says we can not datalink F-16 with Swedish and chinese AWAC? Another BS madeup by you?

And ofcourse, you are going to be banned for this post of yours. be Ready. you have crossed the threshold even after Mod Warning.


MIG-21 made Kills againg F-15 because DOG fight under a restricted environment where F-15 were restrcited to use it's ability. Good BS example you qoute in a debate which is discussing an all out war scenario


----------



## Bratva

Go to JF-17 Info Pool to get the updated states disclosed by JF-17 Project Director. 135 Km for 5m^2 And PAF is not found of releasing any kind of news. What kind of source codes needed for data linking with Swedish AWAC? That's the first time i'm hearing this from you.


----------



## DARKY

mafiya said:


> Go to JF-17 Info Pool to get the updated states disclosed by JF-17 Project Director. 135 Km for 5m^2 And PAF is not found of releasing any kind of news. What kind of source codes needed for data linking with Swedish AWAC? That's the first time i'm hearing this from you.



Which is 30Km more than the original for 5m2... can you provide me the link... searching over 600 pages is not what you do on the Christmas night.

Link 16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You'll hear a lot of new things If you clear the cobwebs of BS information which has been floating around since an year or 2 here on this forum.


----------



## abdulbarijan

DARKY said:


> *Which is 30Km more than the original for 5m2... can you provide me the link.*.. searching over 600 pages is not what you do on the Christmas night.
> 
> Link 16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *You'll hear a lot of new things If you clear the cobwebs of BS information which has been floating around since an year or 2 here on this forum.*











> Kanwa had an interview with* PAF's General Javaid Ahmed*, during which he stated that:
> - In 2012, they will be bring out the JF17 Blk 2. The main improvements are the addition of IFR, the development of a twin seat version, adding datalink and development of an export version JF17.
> - happy with the performance of the KJL7, so no immediate plans to switch to AESA *(KJL7 specs*: *detection range for fighter sized target 130km; can track 16 targets and engage 2 at the same time; have SAR mapping capability)*
> - The Chinese indigenous engine is currently undergoing flight testing and may be a while before it is fitted to a JF17
> - In 2011 the JF17 test fired: 1 x C802 (hit a seaborne target 90km away, max range 180km); 2 x LS-6 bombs, one is a 500kg GPS guided weapon with 60km range and CEP of 15m, the other was a 250kg laser/IIR+GPS guided weapon with a range of 65km and CEP of 5.3-7.5m; SD10 and other weapons.
> translation credits -Plawolf



*Its not 135 its stated at 130 Km for 5m2 RCS as per PAF's Javaid ahmed which was then published by Kanwa*


----------



## DARKY

abdulbarijan said:


> Its not 135 its stated at 130 Km for 5m2 RCS as per PAF's Javaid ahmed which was then published by Kanwa.



Which is to be used on block 2... and aren't present on block 1 as of now.


----------



## danger007

Mav3rick said:


> That may be your understanding. Ours is that both the countries are working hard to fulfill the requirements of PAF (150-250 Jets) and are seriously negotiating with many countries on the sale of JF-17's after internal orders are exhausted. There is also serious development being committed to JF-17's (Block II & Block III) as well as development of a twin seat trainer/fighter Jet.



So you mean only JF-17 will go for upgrade... But MKI will not go for any upgrade...huh.... let blk-II role out then we can talk about 3 or 4th blocks...


----------



## Storm Force

You guys SHOWING OFF radar ranges of KLJ7 & KLJ10 & BARS PESA are missing the most important point.

It shows your lack of understanding 

RANGE IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS PROCESSING SPEED & ANTI JAMMING CAPABILITY.

THE REASON AESA RADARS ARE GAME CHANGERS IS BECAUSE they process the same info that a MSA radar does in one/tenth of the time. 

ie what takes KL7/10 40 seconds an AESA does in 4 seconds 

PESA radars are step up from MSA radars and a 2 steps down AN AESA. 

this means your MKI pilot will see things twice as fast as your F16/JFT/F7 pilot maybe even three x as fast

ALSO a bars radar is much harder to JAM than a MSA.

see give us a break with your RCS & RADAR RANGES. 

please

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

Aphex said:


> There is just one problem with your post, pakistan signed an agreement with US saying that they cannot use f-16 as a tactical/interceptor against India and if they do US will terminate all future upgrades and spare parts.



If you have a stick and sword, what will you employ first....


----------



## SQ8

DARKY said:


> Which is to be used on block 2... and aren't present on block 1 as of now.



Maybe if you took your head out of repetitive parroting you will hear of something known as continuous life-cycle upgrades.
Something that you see in your windows as well whenever they update a system. So whether you purchased a windows 7 in 2008 or today. The former gets updated to the same specification to the one today.
When it comes to Radars, LRU's are updated and software if upgraded to match the capability of the newer models.
How about you leave Kopps page and look up into how radars from the same family get updated.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MilSpec

rockstar said:


> We have 100+ Mig-21s which will take care of the point defense in today's scenario. Though there are old and flying coffins, it is BVR capable, (can carry up to 4 so far I remember) have good ECM too. You can't just write it off them as on today. There will be a gap when they gonna retire one by one and LCA coming up so slowly indeed.



Mig21Bisons getting into a wvr fight with F16s is Ram nam satya!!! Mig29 from nasik 11bdr and pune lohegaon are stationed for patrolling trombay high.. not mig21's. Throwing in mig 21's in a mix of other air superior fighters, then it can do some damage flying right on the treetop level , firing it's salvo and disengaging. I have the utmost respect for mig 21 'bisons, but taking f16's one on one is just not possible for the bisons. 

LCA mk2 if becomes what i envisage it to be, in defensive role, it will give a run for the money to anything in the subcontinent. The dynamics of the subcontinent will indeed change 2015 onwards with rafale and LCA mk2 becoming operational. Thats when Mig29 UPG, MKI and m2005 mk2 and rafales will be freed to do what they were intended for. 

I have always maintained that we have a need for additional 100 Mig 29/35, which never came. there was something brewing with SFC having it's own dedicated sqdn, but unfortunately seems to have not materialized.


----------



## SQ8

Storm Force said:


> AS THE JFT project director quoted JFT currently is a 3.5 gen fighter and 4 years away from becoming a mature reliable platfiorm.



that's the confusion between what is a Chinese 3rd gen and a western 4th gen.


----------



## MilSpec

Storm Force said:


> You guys SHOWING OFF radar ranges of KLJ7 & KLJ10 & BARS PESA are missing the most important point.
> 
> It shows your lack of understanding
> 
> RANGE IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS PROCESSING SPEED & ANTI JAMMING CAPABILITY.
> 
> THE REASON AESA RADARS ARE GAME CHANGERS IS BECAUSE they process the same info that a MSA radar does in one/tenth of the time.
> 
> ie what takes KL7/10 40 seconds an AESA does in 4 seconds
> 
> PESA radars are step up from MSA radars and a 2 steps down AN AESA.
> 
> this means your MKI pilot will see things twice as fast as your F16/JFT/F7 pilot maybe even three x as fast
> 
> ALSO a bars radar is much harder to JAM than a MSA.
> 
> see give us a break with your RCS & RADAR RANGES.
> 
> please





sandy_3126 said:


> Dear members,
> 
> I would like to present my views on this thread which seems to have gathered a lot of momentum. I will not be able to go into critical data on an open forum. I have been following aviation posts and have certain perspective that I would like to present to remove the a few misconceptions regarding the SU30 MKI.I have worked for HAL nasik division and have interacted with quite a few CTP&#8217;s to be in a decent position to give you a general perspective on the SU30MKI and its subsystems.
> 
> *SU 30 MKI Airframe:* MKI&#8217;s airframe is very similar to Russian base model irrespective of what others claim. It differs slightly on the load requirements that were presented to the Russians during the development. I left HAL 4 yrs ago, back then there were plans to use domestic material instead of Russian with same or better physical characteristics which is not necessarily an improvement performance wise but a cost saving measure.
> 
> *Radar: PESA BARS N011 Bars is the biggest ace up IAF&#8217;s sleeve, without divulging into the details detecting range, I can very confidently say that this radar has better resolution, noise cancellation and detection range than Captor and RBE2 hands down. Nothing in the subcontinent can come close to this radar today. I am not fully aware of Chinese subsystems, but this was the take of two Russian CTP&#8217;s 4 years ago. I don&#8217;t think PAF&#8217;s jf 17 radar is as good, but that&#8217;s my perspective and I could be wrong.*
> SU 30 MKI another advantage it can function as airborne command post and has excellent ability to function as such due to the two person crew and its radar.
> 
> *Avionics:* Additional subsystems like the Israeli HUD, OLS 30, laser/infrared hybrid IRST or also called optical laser tracker is very handy device. IAF and USAF goes gaga over the litening pod, it is as good as it gets.
> 
> *Upgrades:* have been discussed to death, so won&#8217;t go there again
> 
> *Misconception on this forum about MKI*
> 
> Airshow aircraft
> 
> There is a general American sentiment of flanker that it is a airshow aircraft which has permeated especially in Pakistani members here. Although the thrust vectoring is something I wouldn&#8217;t credit in WVR, without its pucgahevs and tail slides, its still a very high tvr and is a very nimble and agile dogfighter. Its weapons loadout gives immense amount of firepower in WVR conflict with its inherent disadvantage being size.
> 
> Lets not forget a fact that SU 30 MKI despite its airshow maneuvers is an excellent high speed performer. Its avionics, radar and weapons load out makes it a deadly BVR platform.
> 
> MKI is a huge blip on the radar waiting to be shot down
> 
> To begin with I am not a big believer in BVR combat to the ranges that people think it is effective. BVR regime is most effective to half the radar tracking range sometimes even less. Jammers awacs , Self protection suites have equally evolved as have the BVR missiles. MKI is RCS is not much different from that of a F15SE and I don&#8217;t hear the American complain about it. Indian pilots that I have interacted with will never say anything against their plane , but from what I have heard from the Russian ctp&#8217;s SU27 and su30 are not straight up traditional A2A packages. The A2A combat philosophy is more of simultaneous staggered formations entering tactical area to obtain maximum results . Su 30 MkI is not a lone gun slinger which will go up and bring down an aircraft with every pull of the trigger as some of my fellow countrymen here believe.
> 
> *Pakistan&#8217;s counter to SU30 MKI.*
> 
> Theoretically you can bring down any aircraft with from fro any platform that PAF fields. Hitting a MKI is not miracle and is possible by almost every platform, But in my honest opinion the most effective platform that counters the threat of MKI&#8217;s firepower and range is PAF&#8217;s SAAB ERIEYE. Awacs platform has given the capability to PAF to detec MKI, SMT, UPG, M2k even a rustom that flies into Pakistani airspace and device a counter to thwart the treat. Hence I wouldn&#8217;t be rushing to order f22&#8217;s as of yet, PAF is very well prepared to faceoff IAF successfully at the present movement. SAAB erieye and the chiniese awacs platform will provide a stiff counter to whatever IAF throws at them.




........................

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Storm Force

Sandy 

you seem to know your stuff.

CAN YOU SHED ANY LIGHT ON THE SUPER SUKHOI uprade programme ie 

WN AND HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE?
Will IAF upgrade all or only some fighters
AESA radar when wil it come is it the snow leopard ibris aesa 
RCS reduction options likely hood


----------



## DARKY

Oscar said:


> Maybe if you took your head out of repetitive parroting you will hear of something known as continuous life-cycle upgrades.
> Something that you see in your windows as well whenever they update a system. So whether you purchased a windows 7 in 2008 or today. The former gets updated to the same specification to the one today.
> When it comes to Radars, LRU's are updated and software if upgraded to match the capability of the newer models.
> How about you leave Kopps page and look up into how radars from the same family get updated.



The article talks about that being ready by 2012.
Now that you are talking about life cycle upgrades... does it make sense to delay the block 2 and work on upgrading earlier block radars ?... I am sure you understand that its not like updating your Window 7 from what it was in 2008 to current status... now in 2012.
And If upgraded what further capability it has added to earlier Jf-17 other than dropping gravity bombs and firing heat seeking missiles... (now since it is clear that block 2 brings in the BVR upgrade).


----------



## SQ8

DARKY said:


> The article talks about that being ready by 2012.
> Now that you are talking about life cycle upgrades... does it make sense to delay the block 2 and work on upgrading earlier block radars ?... I am sure you understand that its not like updating your Window 7 from what it was in 2008 to current status... now in 2012.
> And If upgraded what further capability it has added to earlier Jf-17 other than dropping gravity bombs and firing heat seeking missiles... (now since it is clear that block 2 brings in the BVR upgrade).



Nope, it is not clear that block-2 brings in the BVR upgrade. The BVR capability has been there since block-1.
Please find coherent articles or sources that state otherwise. 

Again, read through my post and as to how life cycle upgrades are implemented in Radars before talking again about stopping work on block-2 or otherwise. You dont need to spam the forum with repetition without reading the others post carefully.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Nope, it is not clear that block-2 brings in the BVR upgrade. The BVR capability has been there since block-1.
> Please find coherent articles or sources that state otherwise.
> 
> Again, read through my post and as to how life cycle upgrades are implemented in Radars before talking again about stopping work on block-2 or otherwise. You dont need to spam the forum with repetition without reading the others post carefully.



Didn't the F-7PGs also have border-line BVR capability ?  

A noob question : Too how far can we take the JF-17 with each subsequent upgrade in '*theory*' ? Which is to say till how long can we keep on upgrading them in the same manner the F-16s began with its base line version & is now entering its Block 60 version, before a design limitation of the JF-17 impedes any further upgrades ?


----------



## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> Didn't the F-7PGs also have border-line BVR capability ?
> 
> A noob question : Too how far can we take the JF-17 with each subsequent upgrade in '*theory*' ? Which is to say till how long can we keep on upgrading them in the same manner the F-16s began with its base line version & is now entering its Block 60 version, before a design limitation of the JF-17 impedes any further upgrades ?



Not beyond anything that resembles a block-52+ in JF-17 terms. The idea of the fighter is to be cost effective, if it loses than then you are better off trying to find second hand F-16's or otherwise.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Not beyond anything that resembles a block-52+ in JF-17 terms. The idea of the fighter is to be cost effective, if it loses than then you are better off trying to find second hand F-16's or otherwise.



I read somewhere on this forum that the current version (or the projected one) of the JF-17 has the dog fighting capability of earlier model F-16s & perhaps an avionics & ECM suite approaching that of a Block 40...is this true ? 

Khair at any rate would it be correct to say that a high-low mix of JF-17s resembling Block-52s in performance & the J-31s could be something like what the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) seems to be doing with its F-16 & F-35 high-low mixture or is the quality gap too large to ever bring the two of them (respective mixes) on par or even reasonably on par ? 

Thanks...much obliged !


----------



## MilSpec

Storm Force said:


> Sandy
> 
> you seem to know your stuff.
> 
> CAN YOU SHED ANY LIGHT ON THE SUPER SUKHOI uprade programme ie
> 
> WN AND HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE?
> Will IAF upgrade all or only some fighters
> AESA radar when wil it come is it the snow leopard ibris aesa
> RCS reduction options likely hood


your guess is as good as mine, i left HAL 5 years ago. 
My understanding is HAL is pushing for a bigger ZHUK Aesa radar for SU30MKI, but IAF is adamant on the Irbis AESA meant for PAKFA, the later is going to be very expensive and I doubt if will be available for Super Su upgrade as is still under development. There is a very high possibility that all new MKI's post 2014 will get AESA radar and Brahmos capability.


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> yeah the swift reaction against 200+ Su 30MKI can be already seen.



It's not an irony how you jumped from RAFALE to MKI, it's just you! Well, we have all that we need to counter 200 MKI plus whatever else IAF has currently and we will continue to grow capability to counter IAF within our airspace.





DARKY said:


> Yeah sense is non sense there in your country and for you It seems.
> Bars are a generation ahead of KLJ-7 simply due to the fact that it uses a phased array antenna while KLJ-7 uses slotted planar array which is mechanically steered.
> The Figures for KLJ-7 stands at 75Km for 3m^2 in look up and 35km for the same in look down mode.
> While for BARS its stands at 220Km for 3m^2... Besides that It the radars stand replacement with a more powerful Zhuk-ASE which would give figures of upto 400km for 3m^2 targets.
> However It is useless explaining such things as your madarsa educated brain would find that funny and nonsense.
> 
> It isn't as of now.. and you didn't mention which AWE&C.
> 
> I asked "*What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?*"
> since you claimed you prove... or is it done otherwise there in Pakistan.



Disregarding your personal attacks, have a look at the RCS of MKI with even 4 Missiles, JF-17 will spot it without an AWEACS at a distance of 120km (perhaps even more with current upgrades), the MKI with its massive radar and RCS is also a massive homing beacon for capable missiles. In this way, JFT will spot the MKI at a similar distance that MKI will spot the JFT at. Fortunately for us, we are armed with missiles a lot more capable then anything you have.

And it is as of now, unlike your imagination of Zhuk-ASE on MKI. And all the AWEACS.

Google.





DARKY said:


> And Su30 is Just the tip... there are death stars and Aladdin's lamp with our airforce.
> 
> For your own good.
> How can Know what you collected and conclude about such.
> 
> Yeah is there any problem with that ?
> Or is it wrong according to your madarssa logic ?







DARKY said:


> I cannot help you on that... you simply seem to defy Physics here the SAP518/SAP14 combo which is more powerful than the ALQ jammers and ECM present on Growler is somehow crap.
> Israeli jammers are available for Mig21bisons even and they did score kills on F-15/16s using that.. during cope Indias.



Bisons probably scored kills during cope India......by dropping out of the sky!

Listen, kid, specifications/models/features are things that are tested in real wars (maybe even simulated battles up to some extent). However, the Russian jammers have been tested and tried time and again they have have never been up to the mark.....like never!

Your Israeli jammers (not in enough quantity to be deployed on all MKIs) are something that would worry PAF, no other jammer would.





DARKY said:


> How can a destroyer escort a supersonic fighter... same with a SAM battery... are you all right ?



What the hell are you talking about???? You brought up some **** and bull story about your MKI's challenging Chinese air space and escorted out after completing their mock attacks!





DARKY said:


> USAF has fired 13 AIM120 BVR and achieved success on only 6 a success rate of 45% much higher than your claimed estimate about Russians BVRs.



USAF has fired 16 AIM-120 (mostly versions inferior to C5) and shot down a total of 13 Airborne assets. Success rate stands at > 81%





DARKY said:


> You'll find only when you look for it
> Its at the post #906.



No, it's not! Russian BVR's have yet to score a hit after multiple launches.





DARKY said:


> You cannot datalink F-16block52 with your swedish or chinese AWACS is one example of it... where is the trust ?



Tell that to the stupid engineers/programmers of PAF that have datalinked F-16's (all of them) to the SAAB AWEACS & now even the Chinese ones! That'll teach them a lesson!



Aphex said:


> After Su-30 MKI gets the Super Sukhoi upgrade then you guys won't have chance to counter the plane with plane of your own. You guys probably have to rely on SAMs and other air defense. But really in a war scenario would kinda be useless especially if India moves far into pakistan territory then we would be able to capture some on your air defenses. JFT is a plane that is equal to the lca tejas and f16 would be good against mig 29 but f16 would probably beat it .



Hmmm.....do you think it would be because we would be downgrading our Jets while MKI's get updates? Perhaps you did not realize that we would be upgrading our defensive assets simultaneously.


----------



## Dazzler

Darky,

F-16 blk 52 and MLUed ones both are linked with Erieye through link 16. Where do you bring such crap from by the way?

and the mystery jammer onboard Su-30 is nothing more than a standard export Sorbatsya pod equipped with whole SU-27 series. From China to Malaysia, all possess them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

nabil_05 said:


> Darky,
> 
> F-16 blk 52 and MLUed ones both are linked with Erieye through link 16. Where do you bring such crap from by the way?
> 
> and the mystery jammer onboard Su-30 is nothing more than a standard export Sorbatsya pod equipped with whole SU-27 series. From China to Malaysia, all possess them.



Su-30MKI is equipped with ELTA El/M-8222 Pods.


----------



## selvan33

nabil_05 said:


> Darky,
> 
> F-16 blk 52 and MLUed ones both are linked with Erieye through link 16. Where do you bring such crap from by the way?
> 
> and the mystery jammer onboard Su-30 is nothing more than a standard export Sorbatsya pod equipped with whole SU-27 series. From China to Malaysia, all possess them.



Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI's standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s.
Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

please read something about what you are posting before you post it.


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> It's not an irony how you jumped from RAFALE to MKI, it's just you! Well, we have all that we need to counter 200 MKI plus whatever else IAF has currently and we will continue to grow capability to counter IAF within our airspace.



You find that irony while there has been 66 pages and as many as 1000 posts regarding this... that's the amount of understanding you have.











> Disregarding your personal attacks, have a look at the RCS of MKI with even 4 Missiles, JF-17 will spot it without an AWEACS at a distance of 120km (perhaps even more with current upgrades), the MKI with its massive radar and RCS is also a massive homing beacon for capable missiles. In this way, JFT will spot the MKI at a similar distance that MKI will spot the JFT at. Fortunately for us, we are armed with missiles a lot more capable then anything you have.
> 
> And it is as of now, unlike your imagination of Zhuk-ASE on MKI. And all the AWEACS.
> 
> Google.



And Su30MKI would detect as well as track the clean JF-17 Beyond 200km.
With much larger scan area and more powerful aswell as sophisticated EW are plus points of MKI other than its huge radar.
In absence Saab Eri eye AEW&C aircraft it is highly likely that Su30 won't even allow JF-17 gets their radar scan on itself.

The radar of Su30 is Phased array how many times I have to repeat that other than advantages of higher beam steering agility, much faster scan rate and much higher scan area along with greater targets tracked it also has high anti-jamming capabilities and Low probability of Intercept... by the time the JF-17 radar identifies the signal from MKI its radar would've already changed them and a new set of signal remains to be wondered about... for the KLJ-7 processor.

I wish your air force thinks about it the same way... about your current capabilities.







> Bisons probably scored kills during cope India......by dropping out of the sky!
> 
> Listen, kid, specifications/models/features are things that are tested in real wars (maybe even simulated battles up to some extent). However, the Russian jammers have been tested and tried time and again they have have never been up to the mark.....like never!
> 
> Your Israeli jammers (not in enough quantity to be deployed on all MKIs) are something that would worry PAF, no other jammer would.



The reality doesn't change.






Bison scored Kills on F-15block 52 even now.... and specially with IAF pilots getting a good time with the experienced pilots of Singapore air force(who I guess have had far more hours on F-16 than what PAF pilots have had) and their latest block52 aircrafts... providing a good time for Russian, domestic, Israeli and another country(I would not name that)'s jammers a good work out and evaluation time.

While you and according to you your air force feel they are full equipped and more than capable.

Here's the message by one of the squadrons to your PAF.







> What the hell are you talking about???? You brought up some **** and bull story about your MKI's challenging Chinese air space and escorted out after completing their mock attacks!



I never said escorted.... forced back is not being escorted may be in the madarsa version of English but not for rest of the world.





> USAF has fired 16 AIM-120 (mostly versions inferior to C5) and shot down a total of 13 Airborne assets. Success rate stands at > 81%



Out of which only 13 were BVR shots accounting for only 6 kills.





> No, it's not! Russian BVR's have yet to score a hit after multiple launches.



There hasn't been any incident of R-77 fired in combat and you already talking about multiple launches.
Although there was the incident where multiple launches of R-27 by Su27 killed a Mig29.





> Tell that to the stupid engineers/programmers of PAF that have datalinked F-16's (all of them) to the SAAB AWEACS & now even the Chinese ones! That'll teach them a lesson!



And where does this come from ?... your local madarsa news...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Darky,
> 
> F-16 blk 52 and MLUed ones both are linked with Erieye through link 16. Where do you bring such crap from by the way?
> 
> and the mystery jammer onboard Su-30 is nothing more than a standard export Sorbatsya pod equipped with whole SU-27 series. From China to Malaysia, all possess them.



Share the source... or the place you brought that from.

No It doesn't... It can be only used on Su30MKI, Su35, and Su34... I don't know about Malaysian MKM or Algerian MKA but other Su30 and 27 versions cannot have them due to inferior engines and small generators.


----------



## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Share the source... or the place you brought that from.
> 
> No It doesn't... It can be only used on Su30MKI, Su35, and Su34... I don't know about Malaysian MKM or Algerian MKA but other Su30 and 27 versions cannot have them due to inferior engines and small generators.




SAP-518



DARKY said:


> You find that irony while there has been 66 pages and as many as 1000 posts regarding this... that's the amount of understanding you have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Su30MKI would detect as well as track the clean JF-17 Beyond 200km.
> With much larger scan area and more powerful aswell as sophisticated EW are plus points of MKI other than its huge radar.
> In absence Saab Eri eye AEW&C aircraft it is highly likely that Su30 won't even allow JF-17 gets their radar scan on itself.
> 
> The radar of Su30 is Phased array how many times I have to repeat that other than advantages of higher beam steering agility, much faster scan rate and much higher scan area along with greater targets tracked it also has high anti-jamming capabilities and Low probability of Intercept... by the time the JF-17 radar identifies the signal from MKI its radar would've already changed them and a new set of signal remains to be wondered about... for the KLJ-7 processor.
> 
> I wish your air force thinks about it the same way... about your current capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reality doesn't change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bison scored Kills on F-15block 52 even now.... and specially with IAF pilots getting a good time with the experienced pilots of Singapore air force(who I guess have had far more hours on F-16 than what PAF pilots have had) and their latest block52 aircrafts... providing a good time for Russian, domestic, Israeli and another country(I would not name that)'s jammers a good work out and evaluation time.
> 
> While you and according to you your air force feel they are full equipped and more than capable.
> 
> Here's the message by one of the squadrons to your PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said escorted.... forced back is not being escorted may be in the madarsa version of English but not for rest of the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out of which only 13 were BVR shots accounting for only 6 kills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There hasn't been any incident of R-77 fired in combat and you already talking about multiple launches.
> Although there was the incident where multiple launches of R-27 by Su27 killed a Mig29.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And where does this come from ?... your local madarsa news...





Consider this a polite one, discuss the topic in hand instead of religious abuse or you will be under the crush next time.

According to Crobato in 2002....



"The Su-30MK ECM system comprises an electronic intelligence (ELINT) system, 50-mm chaff and flare dispensers in the rear fuselage with a total of 96 charges and two wingtip pod-mounted active jammers. 
The aircraft weapons includes a cannon mount, missiles, rockets and bomb ordnance. 
The cannon mount includes a built-in GSh-301 30-mm automatic single-barrel high-rate-of-fire cannon. It is housed inside the starboard wing leading-edge root extension (LERX). Its ammunition load is 150 rounds. Missiles, rockets and bombs are mounted on launchers, in launching pods and on beam racks including multiple racks attached to 12 hardpoints. 
The Su-30MK can carry up to six R-27R1 (ER1) air-to-air medium-range missiles with semi-active radar homers, two R-27T1 (R-27ET1) heatseeking medium-range missiles, up to six RVV-AE medium-range active radar-homing missiles and up to six R-73E short-range heatseeking missiles. 
The air-to-surface guided weaponry of the Su-30MK aircraft consists of 6 Kh-31P passive radar-homing anti-radiation missiles, 6 Kh-31A anti-ship active radar-homing missiles, 6 Kh-29T (TE) TV-homing missiles or Kh-29L semi-active laser homing missiles, 2 Kh-59ME TV-command guidance medium-range missiles (to fire the Kh-59ME missiles the aircraft must be equipped with the APK-9E weapon control pod) as well as 6 KAB-500Kr and 3 KAB-1500Kr TV-homing bombs. 
The maximum weight of the unguided air-to-surface weapons carried by the Su-30MK totals 8,000 kg. It includes 8 500-kg bombs or ZB-500-type incendiary canisters, 28 250-kg bombs, 32 100-kg bombs, as well as 80 S-8 rockets in four B-8M1 pods, 20 S-13 rockets in four B-13L pods or four S-25-OFM rockets in O-25 launchers. 
Basic Su-30MK specifications

Engines	AL-31F
Thrust, kgf	2 x 12,500
Length, m	21.935
Wing span, m	14.7
Wing area, sq.m	62.04
Takeoff weight, kg:	Max	34,500
Limit	38,800
Fuel capacity, kg	9,640
Max combat load, kg	8,000
Max speed, km/h:	at high altitude	2,120
at sea level	1,350
Max Mach number 2
Service ceiling, m 17,300
Max loading, g 9
Range, km:	no mid-air refuelling 3,000
single mid-air refuelling 5,200
Run with the normal takeoff weight, m 550
Roll with the drag chute deployed, m 750

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dazzler

The Flanker under the Dragon's Wings v1.0 [Archive] - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> You find that irony while there has been 66 pages and as many as 1000 posts regarding this... that's the amount of understanding you have.



Whatever floats your boat.





DARKY said:


> And Su30MKI would detect as well as track the clean JF-17 Beyond 200km.
> With much larger scan area and more powerful aswell as sophisticated EW are plus points of MKI other than its huge radar.
> In absence Saab Eri eye AEW&C aircraft it is highly likely that Su30 won't even allow JF-17 gets their radar scan on itself.



You are indeed a retard! Listen kid, the much larger and powerful radar searches for much smaller adversary while the much smaller adversary with a much smaller radar searches for an adversary that has massive rcs. It's not just about the ranges, it's about rcs and a whole lot of other things as well. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the JFT locks on to MKI before vice versa. And we know very well what launch of AIM-120C5 would mean.....bye bye MKI!!





DARKY said:


> The radar of Su30 is Phased array how many times I have to repeat that other than advantages of higher beam steering agility, much faster scan rate and much higher scan area along with greater targets tracked it also has high anti-jamming capabilities and Low probability of Intercept... by the time the JF-17 radar identifies the signal from MKI its radar would've already changed them and a new set of signal remains to be wondered about... for the KLJ-7 processor.



Lets just leave the processing power and actual combat performance of the KLJ-7 radar for the 'day' when your MKI actually has to face it. I don't really want to get into the whole arguments on the performance of KLJ-7 as well as our AWACS that will be guiding the JFT's, if need be.





DARKY said:


> I wish your air force thinks about it the same way... about your current capabilities.



Isn't it evident they do? Fortunately for us, your AF also thinks about it the same way you do.





DARKY said:


> The reality doesn't change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bison scored Kills on F-15block 52 even now.... and specially with IAF pilots getting a good time with the experienced pilots of Singapore air force(who I guess have had far more hours on F-16 than what PAF pilots have had) and their latest block52 aircrafts... providing a good time for Russian, domestic, Israeli and another country(I would not name that)'s jammers a good work out and evaluation time.
> 
> While you and according to you your air force feel they are full equipped and more than capable.
> 
> Here's the message by one of the squadrons to your PAF.



Ok kid, listen up and listen good. *There is no Block 52 on F-15's!* Furthermore, PAF pilots are the ones that have actually seen combat with their F-16's, not only that, we have tested the supposedly best AF (Isreal) and have given it a beating while maintaining an impeccable record.

Not only that, PAF's personal hands on experience on all types of SU-27 including SU-30's and exercises with AF's armed with the jets have given us restful sleeps, no wonder IAF had to sprint for MMRCA despite MKI while PAF relaxed!





DARKY said:


> I never said escorted.... forced back is not being escorted may be in the madarsa version of English but not for rest of the world.



Maybe the cow piss drinking and bathing version of your temples teach you otherwise, no wonder you find it extremely hard to put your points through, that and the fact that you make no sense!





DARKY said:


> Out of which only 13 were BVR shots accounting for only 6 kills.



Again, stop drinking cow piss (or whatever other piss you prefer) and maybe those damaged brain cells would have a chance to recover. Out of 16 BVR shots 13 scored direct hits and downed 13 Aerial Targets.





DARKY said:


> There hasn't been any incident of R-77 fired in combat and you already talking about multiple launches.
> Although there was the incident where multiple launches of R-27 by Su27 killed a Mig29.



All types of Russian BVR's have been used without success.......not a single, let me repeat NOT A SINGLE BVR KILL TO ANY RUSSIAN BVR MISSILE!!!! I wonder if even their WVR Missiles work! Could be that their radars are useless and unable to guide the missiles or a case of blind leading other blind!





DARKY said:


> And where does this come from ?... your local madarsa news...



No the temple where you guys perform SATI rituals!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dazzler

Mav3rick said:


> No the temple where you guys perform SATI rituals!!



That makes two of you folks. Please stay on topic.

Thanks


----------



## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> SAP-518[/url




What do you want to show with this copy paste ?

Perhaps SAP-518 is with Malaysia AF... Su30MKM aswell but they do have uprated Al-31FP to provide adequate power.... the SAP-14 ECM pod would require power in excess of 6kW even Su30MKI would have hard time supporting multiple such ECM and Jamming pod combination... thats why the testbed chosen in Russia was not a Su30MK but a Su30MKI prototype.

Till date It has been found in use only with Su30MKI and Su34 fullback and quite naturally possible to be used on Su35S/C/BM/SM... since all have more powerful engines and proper generators to support such highly powerful electronics.
Su30MK baseline can only have them with upgraded powerplants... and generators.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Dazzler

SP-518 (self protection) and SP-14 (stand off) jammers complement each other. Chinese have them both with SU-30 MKK/ MKK2 which have improved AL-31 engines and generators.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Yeti

nabil_05 said:


> SP-518 (self protection) and SP-14 (stand off) jammers complement each other. Chinese have them both with SU-30 MKK/ MKK2 which have improved AL-31 engines and generators.




Why are Russia ordering the Indian version of SU-30 not the Chinese version?

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20120323/172357523.html

The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.

The &#8220;Chinese&#8221; line is based on a different logic that prescribes parallel installation of new systems that fall short of full integration.


Seems people on here are having reading difficulties


----------



## Dazzler

Yeti said:


> Why are Russia ordering the Indian version of SU-30 not the Chinese version?
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia
> 
> The Su-30MKI sports a Russian radar and optic locator, French navigation and heads-up display systems, Israeli EW and weapon-guidance systems, and Indian computers.
> 
> The &#8220;Chinese&#8221; line is based on a different logic that prescribes parallel installation of new systems that fall short of full integration.
> 
> 
> Seems people on here are having reading difficulties



Who told you the Russians ordered "Indian" version for their Su-30 fleet?

Their Su-30 is at least twice as better as your MKI featuring Su-35 technology particularly mission computer, integrated sensor suite and EW. Go to the Russian defence thread on this forum or do tell me if you need online sources.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Yeti

nabil_05 said:


> Who told you the Russians ordered "Indian" version for their Su-30 fleet?
> 
> Their Su-30 is at least twice as better as your MKI featuring Su-35 technology particularly mission computer, integrated sensor suite and EW. Go to the Russian defence thread on this forum or do tell me if you need online sources.





The model ordered by the Russian military is a &#8220;*localized&#8221; version of the &#8220;Indian&#8221; Su-30MKI*. Earlier, Komsomolsk-on-Amur delivered to the Air Force four &#8220;localized&#8221; Su-30MK2&#8217;s.


And yes the SU-30 MKI is our customised version as we use Israeli, French and Indian technology

The Su-30MKI is a fusion of technology from the Su-37 demonstrator and Su-30 program, with additional Indian designed and built processor hardware in the Mission Computers, Radar Data Processor provide under the Vetrivale (Lance) industry program, and some items of Israeli and EU hardware. The aircraft has a Sextant Avionique HUD and RLG (Ring Laser Gyro) INS/GPS, glass cockpits, NIIP N011M phased array, AL-31FP TVC engines, enlarged rudders, Su-33/35/37 canards and aerial refuelling probe, and an improved OLS-30 IRST package. The Indian developed Tarang RWR is used in the EWSP suite. The TVC system in the Su-30MKI has evolved beyond the Su-37 system, which deflected only in the vertical plane. The Su-30MKI variant has a 32 degree canted TVC plane to introduce a lateral and vertical vectored force component, and is driven by the engine's fuel system rather than main aircraft hydraulic loop. 

Since 2003, more details have also been revealed about the N-011M BARS ('Panther') hybrid phased array radar designed for the Su-35/37 and supplied on the Su-30MKI and likely the Su-30MKM. The BARS phased array assembly is mechanically steerable to +/-55 degrees off-boresight, providing a total field of regard in azimuth of +/-100 degrees off-boresight - in effect the combination of mechanical array steering and electronic beam steering provides full forward hemispherical coverage. NIIP claim a 3 dB noise figure three channel receiver, and an average transmit power of 1.2 kW, with 1 kW in illuminator mode for semi-active missiles. Air-air modes include Track While Scan for 15 targets and concurrent engagement of four, raid assessment and Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). Air-surface modes include real beam mapping, Doppler beam sharpening, Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) imaging, Ground/Maritime Moving Target Indicator (GMTI/MMTI), target position measurement and GMTI tracking of two concurrent targets. Aerial fighter sized targets have been acquired at 76 NMI, and moving tanks at 25 NMI. While reports of an Active ESA (AESA) have surfaced, details are as yet not available to the public. 

The Indian Su-30MKI is to date the most advanced Su-27 derivative to enter production and with the exception of mission avionics and software is a credible equivalent to the F-15E/I/K/S family. It also underscores the 'no holds barred' international arms market, in which an export customer is supplied with a product which is half a generation ahead of the Russian air force - the IAF designates it as its Air Dominance Fighter.


http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## farhan_9909

jft and mki both would detect each other at almost same range

rest bvr will decide the outcome

if jft really got sd-10b than probably it would either have to get aim 120d or there is no missile in russian inventory even remotely close to sd-10b


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> Whatever floats your boat.



Did you even understand what was said earlier ?





> You are indeed a retard! Listen kid, the much larger and powerful radar searches for much smaller adversary while the much smaller adversary with a much smaller radar searches for an adversary that has massive rcs. It's not just about the ranges, it's about rcs and a whole lot of other things as well. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the JFT locks on to MKI before vice versa. And we know very well what launch of AIM-120C5 would mean.....bye bye MKI!!



I gave you an rough account of the advantages the BARS have over KLJ-7.
But since it has gone over your head once again... and as expected... you'll get a lot more surprises but that.
How does the JF-17 launch a Aim120 ??... 







> Lets just leave the processing power and actual combat performance of the KLJ-7 radar for the 'day' when your MKI actually has to face it. I don't really want to get into the whole arguments on the performance of KLJ-7 as well as our AWACS that will be guiding the JFT's, if need be.



You can't go... you don't know a jack about that... Its plain and simple from your posts and your understanding about radars.
The EW suit on a few Su30MKI of IAF is capable enough to provide escort jamming capabilities and barrage jamming features which can Blind multiple radars like KLJ-7 on a Half dozen JF-17 type aircrafts... you haven't even seen the tip yet.. the elta 8882 is just a small example... even Mig29UPGs would have a wide array of ECM and Jamming devices most notably absent on Jf-17.





> Isn't it evident they do? Fortunately for us, your AF also thinks about it the same way you do.




Good for you why wasting the time on this thread and declaring the forum administration stupid as for running such a thread.




> Ok kid, listen up and listen good. *There is no Block 52 on F-15's!* Furthermore, PAF pilots are the ones that have actually seen combat with their F-16's, not only that, we have tested the supposedly best AF (Isreal) and have given it a beating while maintaining an impeccable record.
> 
> Not only that, PAF's personal hands on experience on all types of SU-27 including SU-30's and exercises with AF's armed with the jets have given us restful sleeps, no wonder IAF had to sprint for MMRCA despite MKI while PAF relaxed!




That was a typing error.
Doesn't mean PAF are the only ones... we are talking of Singapore Airforce Half a dozen or even more pilots with over 2000hrs experience on F-16... and many more with 1000+hrs.. not to mention the friendly support the IDF has been giving on crucial inputs about EW devices and other electronics equipment meant to beat with good overall evaluations of F-16 and later blocks.

All types of Su27 and Su30 are not Su30MKI but can we expect your stupid brain to understand 

As I said earlier IAF doesn't upgrade its equipment based on what Pakistan and China does... and Its good that PAF is sitting quiet and relaxed... for the IAF.



> Maybe the cow piss drinking and bathing version of your temples teach you otherwise, no wonder you find it extremely hard to put your points through, that and the fact that you make no sense!



It is not Pakistan here.... have a good time with all the piss and **** you swallow daily there.
You made a lot of sense here... perhaps the standard brain of a general Pakistani... you cannot be blamed for that.







> Again, stop drinking cow piss (or whatever other piss you prefer) and maybe those damaged brain cells would have a chance to recover. Out of 16 BVR shots 13 scored direct hits and downed 13 Aerial Targets.



16 were not BVR shots.
Only If you can read.... Yugoslav & Serbian MiG-29s





> All types of Russian BVR's have been used without success.......not a single, let me repeat NOT A SINGLE BVR KILL TO ANY RUSSIAN BVR MISSILE!!!! I wonder if even their WVR Missiles work! Could be that their radars are useless and unable to guide the missiles or a case of blind leading other blind!




You keep on wondering... with that (no we cannot call that brain)... of yours.


No the temple where you guys perform SATI rituals!![/QUOTE]


----------



## Windjammer

*
Nothing is invincible...... J-11/Flanker in the gun sight of a J-10. *

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Dazzler

Yeti said:


> The model ordered by the Russian military is a &#8220;*localized&#8221; version of the &#8220;Indian&#8221; Su-30MKI*. Earlier, Komsomolsk-on-Amur delivered to the Air Force four &#8220;localized&#8221; Su-30MK2&#8217;s.
> 
> 
> And yes the SU-30 MKI is our customised version as we use Israeli, French and Indian technology
> 
> The Su-30MKI is a fusion of technology from the Su-37 demonstrator and Su-30 program, with additional Indian designed and built processor hardware in the Mission Computers, Radar Data Processor provide under the Vetrivale (Lance) industry program, and some items of Israeli and EU hardware. The aircraft has a Sextant Avionique HUD and RLG (Ring Laser Gyro) INS/GPS, glass cockpits, NIIP N011M phased array, AL-31FP TVC engines, enlarged rudders, Su-33/35/37 canards and aerial refuelling probe, and an improved OLS-30 IRST package. The Indian developed Tarang RWR is used in the EWSP suite. The TVC system in the Su-30MKI has evolved beyond the Su-37 system, which deflected only in the vertical plane. The Su-30MKI variant has a 32 degree canted TVC plane to introduce a lateral and vertical vectored force component, and is driven by the engine's fuel system rather than main aircraft hydraulic loop.
> 
> Since 2003, more details have also been revealed about the N-011M BARS ('Panther') hybrid phased array radar designed for the Su-35/37 and supplied on the Su-30MKI and likely the Su-30MKM. The BARS phased array assembly is mechanically steerable to +/-55 degrees off-boresight, providing a total field of regard in azimuth of +/-100 degrees off-boresight - in effect the combination of mechanical array steering and electronic beam steering provides full forward hemispherical coverage. NIIP claim a 3 dB noise figure three channel receiver, and an average transmit power of 1.2 kW, with 1 kW in illuminator mode for semi-active missiles. Air-air modes include Track While Scan for 15 targets and concurrent engagement of four, raid assessment and Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). Air-surface modes include real beam mapping, Doppler beam sharpening, Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) imaging, Ground/Maritime Moving Target Indicator (GMTI/MMTI), target position measurement and GMTI tracking of two concurrent targets. Aerial fighter sized targets have been acquired at 76 NMI, and moving tanks at 25 NMI. While reports of an Active ESA (AESA) have surfaced, details are as yet not available to the public.
> 
> The Indian Su-30MKI is to date the most advanced Su-27 derivative to enter production and with the exception of mission avionics and software is a credible equivalent to the F-15E/I/K/S family. It also underscores the 'no holds barred' international arms market, in which an export customer is supplied with a product which is half a generation ahead of the Russian air force - the IAF designates it as its Air Dominance Fighter.
> 
> 
> Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power



MKI is just a customized version for India, nothing else. Same is the case with MKM for Malaysia. The SM version is most advanced version to date.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> SP-518 (self protection) and SP-14 (stand off) jammers complement each other. Chinese have them both with SU-30 MKK/ MKK2 which have improved AL-31 engines and generators.



Where do you buy such BS from ?
Where is the source for this... or the usual insider told you who said about Nozh ERA and Kombat being loaded from hand..


----------



## Yeti

nabil_05 said:


> MKI is just a customized version for India, nothing else. Same is the case with MKM for Malaysia. The SM version is most advanced version to date.




The most advanced version is the SU-35 the MKI is the best version for India.


The aircraft's integrated electronic warfare system includes a Tarang radar warning system, *indigenously produced by the Indian Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), *and systems supplied by Israeli manufacturers.

The Malaysian Su-30MKM is fitted with a missile approach warning system and laser warner by Saab Avitronics in South Africa.


----------



## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Who told you the Russians ordered "Indian" version for their Su-30 fleet?
> 
> Their Su-30 is at least *twice as better as your MKI* featuring Su-35 technology particularly *mission computer, integrated sensor suite and EW*. Go to the Russian defence thread on this forum or do tell me if you need online sources.



At least do Justice to your post here... 

*faceplam*
The Su30MK was ordered for PLAN much before Su35 could mature for tests with the new computers and EW suit.
The version used by PLAN has strengthen airframe to carry more load for ground attack mission and is much less capable than baseline Su30MK in air-air combat forget about that being anywhere near Su30MK2/3..... Su30MKI or Su35 are far off.



nabil_05 said:


> The Flanker under the Dragon's Wings v1.0 [Archive] - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums



Why are you posting this outside forum what for ?
Did you even look the dates ?... Su30MKI was not even ready by 2002...


----------



## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> At least do Justice to your post here...
> 
> *faceplam*
> The Su30MK was ordered for PLAN much before Su35 could mature for tests with the new computers and EW suit.
> The version used by PLAN has strengthen airframe to carry more load for ground attack mission and is much less capable than baseline Su30MK in air-air combat forget about that being anywhere near Su30MK2/3..... Su30MKI or Su35 are far off.



You have been busted repeatedly but you regather your BS and come for more...

Your beloved Ausair power says it. Check the bottom


Sukhoi Su-34 Fullback; Russia's New Heavy Strike Fighter

MKK retained as a test bed in Russia

http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/mos2009_day02.html

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Yeti

took six years to develop from start to MKI. Advanced avionics were developed by DRDO under a project code named *"Vetrivale" *(a Tamil name for the victorious lance carried by the youthful Lord Karthikeya or Murugan, a son of Parvati and Shiva) in close collaboration with the PSUs and the IAF. Indian avionics have been received and acknowledged enthusiastically by the Russian principals.




*The following are the components developed by Indian agencies:*




Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE)

Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)

Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE)

IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)

Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL)

Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL)

Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE)

Multi Function Displays (MFD) - Samtel/DARE


----------



## DARKY

I don't want to spoil the Belief some people have over their PAF... and Its BVR capability but too much ranting that we are prepared and relax and don't need to worry etc..etc.. is not what your beloved PAF thinks thats why they pushed for BVR induction... after a Gap of over 10years behind inferior to IAF in this regard and you people say they are relaxed.. how shameful you don't even appreciate the effort.

Here another ace up sleeve IAF EW capabilities.






Other than this there are also IR and EO versions too.


----------



## Dazzler

BARS is by no means as majestic as some claim it to be...


Sukhoi Su-30 MKI

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> You have been busted repeatedly but you regather your BS and come for more...
> 
> Your beloved Ausair power says it. Check the bottom
> 
> 
> Sukhoi Su-34 Fullback; Russia's New Heavy Strike Fighter
> 
> MKK retained as a test bed in Russia
> 
> Moscow 2009 Day 2




What do you want to convey using this picture ?
http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/moscow_2009_files/day02_031.jpg

And why are you posting about Su34 full back... I have already stated half a dozen times that Su34 carriers those EW equipment.


My inferior brain now cannot understand your High quality posts... spare me.



nabil_05 said:


> BARS is by no means as majestic as some claim it to be...
> 
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30 MKI



Article dates back to 2004 8 years have past BARS already have had atleast 2-3 upgrades.
Why don't you see the date before posting anything ?


----------



## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> What do you want to convey using this picture ?
> http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/moscow_2009_files/day02_031.jpg
> 
> And why are you posting about Su34 full back... I have already stated half a dozen times that Su34 carriers those EW equipment.
> 
> 
> My inferior brain now cannot understand your High quality posts... spare me.
> 
> 
> 
> Article dates back to 2004 8 years have past BARS already have had atleast 2-3 upgrades.
> Why don't you see the date before posting anything ?



Conclusion:

You specialize in ranting, not debating.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Yeti

nabil_05 said:


> BARS is by no means as majestic as some claim it to be...
> 
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30 MKI




What is this cheap blog you are posting?

The advent of the Flanker saw the introduction of the N001 radar, intended to match the US APG-63. While the radar did not meet expectations, it is the baseline of the Su-30K radar flown by the Indians in the Cope India 2004 exercise in which late model APG-63 equipped F-15Cs were defeated in simulated BVR combat.

By the time of Cope India, Russian industry was delivering the first production examples of the NIIP N011M BARS hybrid ESA on early Indian AF Su-30MKI Flankers. Until recently the BARS was the highest performing radar on any fighter other than the F-22A - while the AWG-9/APG-71 has marginally better power aperture performance, the hybrid array design of the BARS gives it around 6 dB better sensitivity.


http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html


----------



## Black Widow

@Mav3rick : 


1. RCS doesn't matter in 4th gen warfare, No matter how low or huge the RCS is.
2. In same generation fighterplane AAMs can't guarentee sure kill... In one incident F16 and MiG25 exchanged 10 Missiles without scoring a single kill.
3. F15 has massive RCS still its unbeatable.
4. Bigger plane means more space, more avionics , more weapons.
5. Small plane can have advantage of agility, but that count only in WVR scenario. 

JF17 is not even matured to call 4th gen fighter (even accepted by Pakistani think thanks), Its still evolving. Su30 MKI is 4+ gen fighter. For sure MKI has all advantage over FC1. Please don't bring one generation below fighter to counter MKI. 

In one of my post in this thread I have posted an line about MKI "Team red (USAF) paid heavy price by pitching low end fighter against MKI". Trust me USAF low end fighters are better than PAF high end fighters....

The only thing can counter a heavy fighter is is heavy fighter or SAMs...


----------



## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> Conclusion:
> 
> You specialize in ranting, not debating.



Your debate is for all to see.... go and come back when you have some strong argument and stop posting useless pages and outside forum pages which are from 10-8 years back and prehistoric times.


----------



## Yeti

Super 30 upgrade is on the cards in the future that will give us a upgraded pilot cockpit, new radar and several structural elements enhancing the jet&#8217;s stealth features that make it less visible to the enemy.

272 of these beasts is enough to face any threat the sheer numbers we have linked to the Phalcon AWACS which we will order more of is enough to deter anyone.

Also if PAF enters Indian airspace it will also have to face the threat of SPYDER missile system.


----------



## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Nope, it is not clear that block-2 brings in the BVR upgrade. *The BVR capability has been there since block-1.
> Please find coherent articles or sources that state otherwise. *
> Again, read through my post and as to how life cycle upgrades are implemented in Radars before talking again about stopping work on block-2 or otherwise. You dont need to spam the forum with repetition without reading the others post carefully.



I read somewhere in PDF itself that in recent IDEAS 2012, an interview with a PAF senior officer..he stated that the BVR capability is not yet ready and the integration is going on. BUt I'm not able to find out the exact interview here now.


----------



## mylovepakistan

LOL!

i find it funny how much BARS radar is over hyped like i heard someone saying that it could/would scan as well as track a clean JF-17 at 200 km or more...

official specs tell BARS has a 'detection' range of 140 km against a 5 meter square target...while vayu-sena tripod mentioned the detection range for a MIG-21 as 135 km...

oh well,what about aero india 2011?

here you go..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hobo1

farhan_9909 said:


> jft and mki both would detect each other at almost same range
> 
> rest bvr will decide the outcome
> 
> if jft really got sd-10b than probably it would either have to get aim 120d or there is no missile in russian inventory even remotely close to sd-10b



MKI having more powerful radars means that MKI can for longer lengths guide their BVR missiles. So MKI can at take shots at Jf17 at much safer distance. JFs have to come much closer to MKI to have successful shot.

Indian MKI having two pilots and other other added advantage over JF17s. 

And PAF have just acquired BVR capabilities where as at Time of Kargil India had BVR missiles. So Indian pilots are better trained in BVR tactics. 

Chinese BVR missile outdoing their Russian counterpart at this moment seems a bit unbelievable at this stage.


----------



## EzioAltaïr

Mav3rick said:


> Where did he even suggest of any Pakistani plans to 'invade' India????



Kashmir, Longewala, etc. Don't even try to deny the fact that Pakistan has "invaded" without air cover on at least 2 major occassi


----------



## arbit

nabil_05 said:


> Conclusion:
> 
> You specialize in ranting, not debating.



His arguments have merit. Also why are you quoting 10 years old articles / blogs in your support?


----------



## ironman

There is always a way to counter aircrafts, MKI is not invincible .. PAF definitely explored each and every possibilities. But at the end of the day numbers play the game. At times, I have posted this.. for who wants to downplay MKI's capabilities. 



pshamim said:


> At General Dynamics we did a study of Flankers and its impact on our Business Development efforts internationally and the results surprised us.
> 
> We need to be very careful when comparing Flankers with other aircrafts. Realistically, it is one of the best if not the best among the 4th gen. brood.
> 
> I will try penning down a post based on the lessons learnt.
> 
> We can put BVR capable F-16s and JF-17 against any aircraft in the Indian inventory but SU-30 is a beast which will not be easy to kill. Though US has devised scenerios to confront and tame it if and when needed.


----------



## Dazzler

DARKY said:


> Your debate is for all to see.... go and come back when you have some strong argument and stop posting useless pages and outside forum pages which are from 10-8 years back and prehistoric times.



These "useless" pages have discussion contributed b some of the most knowledgeable people out there, some are retired AF personnel but you stand tall above the rest with your valuable analysis. Old pages does not mean the information become wrong. The SP-518/ SP-14 jammer pod info was given for a member who mentioned an "exclusive" super pod in possession by IAF which is far from truth. 

Lastly, for once, try to make some sense and see the real picture of the region and stop considering MKI as the analogous of F-22 in the region, otherwise don't bother.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

The other big problem for PAF is in WVR even leaving out the TVC problem,they don't have any counter to the HMS and r-73 archer off boresight missile.As far as i know PAF doesn't have the AIM-9X and without this and the python-5 which are the only 2 equivalents of the r-73 in WVR they will be at a serious disadvantage.When germany unified the luftwaffe took over the east german air forces mig-29s,they tested it and came to the conclusion that their mig-29s totally dominated all western aircraft in the wvr due to this missile and HMS combo.They even kept them in service.


----------



## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> These "useless" pages have discussion contributed b some of the most knowledgeable people out there, some are retired AF personnel but you stand tall above the rest with your valuable analysis. Old pages does not mean the information become wrong. The SP-518/ SP-14 jammer pod info was given for a member who mentioned an "exclusive" super pod in possession by IAF which is far from truth.
> 
> Lastly, for once, try to make some sense and see the real picture of the region and stop considering MKI as the analogous of F-22 in the region, otherwise don't bother.








Neither was there any Su30MKI/Su35/Sap-14/518 or whatever related to this thread back in 2002.
There are many retired and passed off AF personnel who would've already died from that time how do you expect them to explain about something which is developed only recently.... There's hardly even the mention about such EW equipment on those 10 year old pages.

It is valuable no doubt but it is hard to understand what was the use ?
Those jammers have been tested on Su30MKI in Russia and are part of a few MKIs specially designed for EW and escort jamming abilities... much like Growler of USN... those jammers and ECM radiate a lot more power than the ALQ-99 pods.... and would be used for stand of jamming of airborne and ground based radars and communication system.

You won't find every 2nd MKI flying with those pods as they are too heavy and require a lot of power hampering the kinematics and load carrying ability for a normal MKI.

I never said that Su30MKI is an equivallent of F-22A I am only trying to provide a rough idea as to what a Su30MKI is.



AUSTERLITZ said:


> The other big problem for PAF is in WVR even leaving out the TVC problem,they don't have any counter to the HMS and r-73 archer off boresight missile.As far as i know PAF doesn't have the AIM-9X and without this and the python-5 which are the only 2 equivalents of the r-73 in WVR they will be at a serious disadvantage.When germany unified the luftwaffe took over the east german air forces mig-29s,they tested it and came to the conclusion that their mig-29s totally dominated all western aircraft in the wvr due to this missile and HMS combo.They even kept them in service.



F-16block52 have got JHMCS which help the pilot to fire Aim9L/M missile.
However claims about Jf-17 are dubious.


----------



## MilSpec

farhan_9909 said:


> jft and mki both would detect each other at almost same range
> 
> rest bvr will decide the outcome
> 
> if jft really got sd-10b than probably it would either have to get aim 120d or there is no missile in russian inventory even remotely close to sd-10b


RVV-AE-SD outranges everything else... including AIM120D


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> Did you even understand what was said earlier ?
> 
> I gave you an rough account of the advantages the BARS have over KLJ-7.
> But since it has gone over your head once again... and as expected... you'll get a lot more surprises but that.
> How does the JF-17 launch a Aim120 ??...
> 
> You can't go... you don't know a jack about that... Its plain and simple from your posts and your understanding about radars.
> The EW suit on a few Su30MKI of IAF is capable enough to provide escort jamming capabilities and barrage jamming features which can Blind multiple radars like KLJ-7 on a Half dozen JF-17 type aircrafts... you haven't even seen the tip yet.. the elta 8882 is just a small example... even Mig29UPGs would have a wide array of ECM and Jamming devices most notably absent on Jf-17.
> 
> Good for you why wasting the time on this thread and declaring the forum administration stupid as for running such a thread.
> 
> That was a typing error.
> Doesn't mean PAF are the only ones... we are talking of Singapore Airforce Half a dozen or even more pilots with over 2000hrs experience on F-16... and many more with 1000+hrs.. not to mention the friendly support the IDF has been giving on crucial inputs about EW devices and other electronics equipment meant to beat with good overall evaluations of F-16 and later blocks.
> 
> All types of Su27 and Su30 are not Su30MKI but can we expect your stupid brain to understand
> 
> As I said earlier IAF doesn't upgrade its equipment based on what Pakistan and China does... and Its good that PAF is sitting quiet and relaxed... for the IAF.
> 
> It is not Pakistan here.... have a good time with all the piss and **** you swallow daily there.
> You made a lot of sense here... perhaps the standard brain of a general Pakistani... you cannot be blamed for that.
> 
> 16 were not BVR shots.
> Only If you can read.... Yugoslav & Serbian MiG-29s
> 
> You keep on wondering... with that (no we cannot call that brain)... of yours.
> 
> No the temple where you guys perform SATI rituals!!



Actually.....did you??

You are exactly right about the first part......that your account of advantages of BARS was *rough*, indeed!

Would you ask me how the JF-17 starts its engines next????

It's apparent that neither of us is convinced by the other so lets just leave this argument! Otherwise I will continue to claim how JFT is actually a threat to MKI even 1 on 1 and you would continue to claim otherwise, no point really.

Again, lets just quit as I cannot repeat how much more direct access PAF has to SU-27's and SU-30's including those SU-30's that are closest to MKI's. I mean what else is there as PAF pilots have flown these Jets on multiple occasions unlike IAF that could have only looked at the F's on the ground and to spot the F's behind in the air!

Anyway, you eventually forced me to stoop to your level. I cannot compete with you at at your level though.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Yeti

Mav3rick said:


> Actually.....did you??
> 
> You are exactly right about the first part......that your account of advantages of BARS was *rough*, indeed!
> 
> Would you ask me how the JF-17 starts its engines next????
> 
> It's apparent that neither of us is convinced by the other so lets just leave this argument! Otherwise I will continue to claim how JFT is actually a threat to MKI even 1 on 1 and you would continue to claim otherwise, no point really.
> 
> Again, lets just quit as I cannot repeat how much more direct access PAF has to SU-27's and SU-30's including those SU-30's that are closest to MKI's. I mean what else is there as PAF pilots have flown these Jets on multiple occasions unlike IAF that could have only looked at the F's on the ground and to spot the F's behind in the air!
> 
> Anyway, you eventually forced me to stoop to your level. I cannot compete with you at at your level though.





Indian pilots have flown the f16 many times


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> I don't want to spoil the Belief some people have over their PAF... and Its BVR capability but too much ranting that we are prepared and relax and don't need to worry etc..etc.. is not what your beloved PAF thinks thats why they pushed for BVR induction... after a Gap of over 10years behind inferior to IAF in this regard and you people say they are relaxed.. how shameful you don't even appreciate the effort.
> 
> Here another ace up sleeve IAF EW capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other than this there are also IR and EO versions too.



The person you are 'NOT' quoting has repeatedly told you and still failed to get the point across that you may just as well be flying with a water gun instead of Russian BVR's, that's how effective they are. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised if the WVR missiles of Russian origin performed only marginally better then the American ones from the 60's.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Black Widow said:


> @Mav3rick :
> 
> 
> 1. RCS doesn't matter in 4th gen warfare, No matter how low or huge the RCS is.
> 2. In same generation fighterplane AAMs can't guarentee sure kill... In one incident F16 and MiG25 exchanged 10 Missiles without scoring a single kill.
> 3. F15 has massive RCS still its unbeatable.
> 4. Bigger plane means more space, more avionics , more weapons.
> 5. Small plane can have advantage of agility, but that count only in WVR scenario.
> 
> JF17 is not even matured to call 4th gen fighter (even accepted by Pakistani think thanks), Its still evolving. Su30 MKI is 4+ gen fighter. For sure MKI has all advantage over FC1. Please don't bring one generation below fighter to counter MKI.
> 
> In one of my post in this thread I have posted an line about MKI "Team red (USAF) paid heavy price by pitching low end fighter against MKI". Trust me USAF low end fighters are better than PAF high end fighters....
> 
> The only thing can counter a heavy fighter is is heavy fighter or SAMs...



1) WTH?? Why not??
2) As the generation of fighters progress, so does that of the Missiles.
3) Only because it faces Russian Junk, let it fight it out against a Rafale or a Typhoon without aids (such as AWEACS) and then we will see.
4) Brings us back to point 1, also means massive RCS.
5) Even planes without powerful radars can be guided by AWEACS systems for missile launch.

Lol.....JFT is beyond Gen4 let alone a gen behind it. And 4+ or 4.9 is still not 5th Gen. Your MKI would face stiff resistance from JFT's, especially those that are aided by AWEACS, SAMS and other ground based EW assets.



Yeti said:


> Super 30 upgrade is on the cards in the future that will give us a upgraded pilot cockpit, new radar and several structural elements enhancing the jets stealth features that make it less visible to the enemy.
> 
> 272 of these beasts is enough to face any threat the sheer numbers we have linked to the Phalcon AWACS which we will order more of is enough to deter anyone.
> 
> Also if PAF enters Indian airspace it will also have to face the threat of SPYDER missile system.



I don't believe PAF would have plans to enter Indian Airspace. But within Pakistani air space, PAF is quite capable of holding its ground.



EzioAltaïr;3735007 said:


> Kashmir, Longewala, etc. Don't even try to deny the fact that Pakistan has "invaded" without air cover on at least 2 major occassi



Is that what he said in his post?

By the way, Kashmir is a part of Pakistan that is under illegal occupation

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Yeti said:


> Indian pilots have flown the f16 many times



In trials right? Could they have flown it more then PAF flights on SUs and Migs?


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> In trials right? Could they have flown it more then PAF flights on SUs and Migs?



In late 2007,
India agreed to a 5 year lease of the
Kalaikunda airbase in West Bengal
to Singapore for training of the
latter's air force 's F-16 fighter
aircraft due to limited airspace in
Singapore. This is the first New
Delhi has ever leased out its
military installations to foreign
country on a long-term basis.

Foreign relations of Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## EzioAltaïr

Mav3rick said:


> Is that what he said in his post?
> 
> By the way, Kashmir is a part of Pakistan that is under illegal occupation



That's just excuses. I stated a fact, that previously, Pakistan has tried the ridiculous idea of using PAF for defence only, and attacking without air cover, both the times it failed miserably. I used it as an example to say how ridiculous the idea of having an AF for defence-only purposes is.


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

sandy_3126 said:


> RVV-AE-SD outranges everything else... including AIM120D



Mr Sandy 3126, I understand that you & Paks are going hot & heavy but Raytheon AMRAAM AIM-120 D / C-8 is currently being fully fledged out and the "true" range and Kill Zone are Classified. I doubt you got hold of that information. 

I assure you in comparing systems being currently live-tested or deployed worldwide *only* Meteor is a serious contender. Let's deal in facts and not bluster. Range and accuracy are two different parameters you need to pay attention. Have a nice day.


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

Black Widow said:


> The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? ...



First Gulf War; A Saudi F-15 was vectored onto a Iraqi mig's 6 by Sentry E3 and he took that out with an AIM-9 at WVR. But you are right I did not "hear" it.


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> Actually.....did you??
> 
> You are exactly right about the first part......that your account of advantages of BARS was *rough*, indeed!
> 
> Would you ask me how the JF-17 starts its engines next????
> 
> It's apparent that neither of us is convinced by the other so lets just leave this argument! Otherwise I will continue to claim how JFT is actually a threat to MKI even 1 on 1 and you would continue to claim otherwise, no point really.
> 
> Again, lets just quit as I cannot repeat how much more direct access PAF has to SU-27's and SU-30's including those SU-30's that are closest to MKI's. I mean what else is there as PAF pilots have flown these Jets on multiple occasions unlike IAF that could have only looked at the F's on the ground and to spot the F's behind in the air!
> 
> Anyway, you eventually forced me to stoop to your level. I cannot compete with you at at your level though.



Oh yes hence the reply.

I am not the usual honey pot all PAF praise here you must realize before indulging.

I asked you a basic question that how does your JF-17 fire an AIM-120... you have been puking BS all over the thread and don't even have the reason... I recommend you the JF-17 information pool of this forum go and read the length and come back when you find If any JF-17 ever had Aim120 integrated with their radar.

Only a retard thinks JF-17 being equal to a Su30MKI... you beat even the fanboys on that.

And Here I say again... those Su27 and Su30s are no where near a Su30MKI that's something even the worst of the worst troll bots know here... only Su30MKM, Su30MKA and Su35 versions are close.
And I repeat the same thing once more... IAF pilots fly F-16block52 of Singapore AF every year they are in India and are evaluated with every new development on those jets.

I never went to any level...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> Mr Sandy 3126, I understand that you & Paks are going hot & heavy but Raytheon AMRAAM AIM-120 D / C-8 is currently being fully fledged out and the "true" range and Kill Zone are Classified. I *doubt you got hold of that information. *
> 
> I *assure you* in comparing systems being currently live-tested or deployed worldwide *only* Meteor is a serious contender. Let's deal in facts and not bluster. Range and accuracy are two different parameters you need to pay attention. Have a nice day.



It seems that you know about the RVV-SD very well for making such points ?


----------



## Yeti

How did they Fly? There is a lot of stuff on the subject in the newspapers and magazines about this airplane. There's a great video on youtube, where somebody shows the F-22 flying its demo, and the Su-30MK, side by side, and he does the exact same demonstration, as the F-22. And an airshow, then can do the same demonstration. The reality is, that's about as close as the airplanes ever get. When you compare it with US airplanes; where does it stand up against the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than we are. And that's pretty impressive,* it has better radar, more thrust, vectored thrust, longer ranged weapons,* so it's pretty impressive. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better). 

Red Flag 2008-4 : Lecture by USAF Col. Terrence Fornof


Su-30MKI has the edge even vs the F16/F15 (subject to the block)


----------



## DARKY

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> First Gulf War; A Saudi F-15 was vectored onto a Iraqi mig's 6 by Sentry E3 and he took that out with an AIM-9 at WVR. But you are right I did not "hear" it.



You talking of the war where about 2000+ 1st class AF was involved in a conflict with a 3rd class one with their top pilots and planes already fled to Iran and only about a 100 or so mix of downgraded mostly previous generation planes... devoid of any early warning and support and EW.


----------



## Yeti

Mav3rick said:


> In trials right? Could they have flown it more then PAF flights on SUs and Migs?





Even back in 2005 a 10-member IAF team flew the Thai F16's and carried out a technical assessment on the jets


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

Aphex said:


> There is just one problem with your post, pakistan signed an agreement with US saying that they cannot use f-16 as a tactical/interceptor against India and if they do US will terminate all future upgrades and spare parts.




FMS contract with Pakistan does not mention "India". The basis for your conjecture is US concern that Pakistan's Falcons may be deployed to a third country where they may be scrutinized closely for industrial espionage.......you can read that as China if you like. Paks are free to defend their airspace from aggression using these superb Vipers. In fact I recommend they go for a couple of squadrons of "V" configuration. I mean there is no harm in asking for AESA, AIM-120D, AIM-9X?

Who knows US may relent.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Yeti

IAF does have a weakness in that it no experience of flying, inspecting the JF-17 whereas PAF has flown the Sukhoi and being close to China has had a good look at their birds they know alot about them but we know very little of the JF-17. 

Hope that China exports some to countries we have friendly relations with


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

DARKY said:


> You talking of the war where about 2000+ 1st class AF was involved in a conflict with a 3rd class one with their top pilots and planes already fled to Iran and only about a 100 or so mix of downgraded mostly previous generation planes... devoid of any early warning and support and EW.



The FORUM format only works if you pay "close" attention to the "context" of what is being posted.
One of your fellow countrymen had posed a rhetorically flamboyant question about a WVR mash-up by a "heavy fighter" in the last 30 years. I merely called him on that and supplied the counterpoint fact.

Other than that I thank you for your valued knowledge of airforce 'classifications', 'top/downgraded' pilots, and 'generation' of combat aircraft. Clearly key things to think about when in air-combat an American AMRAAM is seeking your rear end...............

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Black Widow

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> The FORUM format only works if you pay "close" attention to the "context" of what is being posted.
> One of your fellow countrymen had posed a rhetorically flamboyant question about a WVR mash-up by a "heavy fighter" in the last 30 years. I merely called him on that and supplied the counterpoint fact.
> 
> Other than that I thank you for your valued knowledge of airforce 'classifications', 'top/downgraded' pilots, and 'generation' of combat aircraft. Clearly key things to think about when in air-combat an American AMRAAM is seeking your rear end...............





Except some isolated Incident there are no incident that F15 allowed rivals to come closer. 

The matter of fact is, you didn't read the entire context. ur countrymen put forward the theory that Heavy class fighters can be countered using MRCAs or point defense fighter in WVR, My argument was "Why Heavy fighter involve in WVR when they can wipe out rival from a long distance?" 

For your "American AMRAAM" : During cold war, your teen countered MiG25, total 10 Missile exchanged (including American AMRAAM), without any kill. We all know what Iraqi MiGs were, They were outdated.


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

Black Widow said:


> Except some isolated Incident there are no incident that F15 allowed rivals to come closer.
> 
> The matter of fact is, you didn't read the entire context. ur countrymen put forward the theory that Heavy class fighters can be countered using MRCAs or point defense fighter in WVR, My argument was "Why Heavy fighter involve in WVR when they can wipe out rival from a long distance?"
> 
> For your "American AMRAAM" : During cold war, your teen countered MiG25, total 10 Missile exchanged (including American AMRAAM), without any kill. We all know what Iraqi MiGs were, They were outdated.



First what is "HEAVY" class and how is it different from a MRCA? Do you think F-15 is a heavy class Or MRCA? >>>It is hard to argue with someone who uses arcane terms to win an argument.

You had asked a question:"The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? .." Is that not your question? I supplied you with a fact that directly refutes your implication in the question. Is that not correct, now you want to dither into a ramblefest with no real direction. My POINT was that do not use bad arguments to support your contention.......BTW Have you read the book "The argumentative Indian" it is by an Indian before you get all prideful.

The BVR scenario you are using to scare the Paks was only applicable when in Kargil they had no BVR and you could shoot them at BVR ranges. Now they have rectified that deficiency. The ultra-long range "shoot & scoot" philosophy you are using was coined by USAF for F/A-22A Raptor armed with one of the best airborne Radars and AIM-120D\C-8. You keep impressing Paks that you can shoot & scoot without meeting any of their fighters.

The problem with that is your aircraft is NOT low-observable\stealth like Raptor. They will see it coming with their surveillance radars. You do not have AMRAAM 120D. Your Amraamski CAN be jammed. You may shoot and scoot. How will you know it hit anything? And lastly after a Flanky has shot his BVRAAM load and turns to exit.....is it not possible that a Pakistani fighter may scope him out as he extends back home? Is it NOT evenly remotely possible? 

If these HEAVY fighters NEVER engage in WVR combat then you better let the RAF know 'cause they just put a video on TheAviationistdotCom showing 2 Typhoons (A HEAVY CLASS per your peculiar classification) successfully engaging 2 Turkish vipers (MRCA or point defence planes per you classificaton). Please let them know it is no longer a worthwhile endeavor!

And speaking of being contextually clued in....I have not seen any of *my countrymen* on this topic ...Please feel free to point them out to me....

Or next time when bragging about you weapon system just use accurate & cogent argument.

I could not make any sense of you last sentence about cold war and 10 exchanges. Do read up on PAF kills during First Afghan War, Israeli Viper kills over Bekaa, Sinai. Tomcats in Iran-Iraq war. Is that enough context for you?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

DARKY said:


> It seems that you know about the RVV-SD very well for making such points ?



That's a fair question. Let me answer it tangentially. Do you think if US spends $700B on defence, it would use some of those funds to keep abreast of all potential adversary weapon systems? 

It is highly unlikely that USAF/USN will show up for a knife-fight without the biggest turkey carver....I thought I would just put some seasonal cheer into this drab and repetitve forum post!!!!


----------



## DARKY

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> That's a fair question. Let me answer it tangentially. Do you think if US spends $700B on defence, it would use some of those funds to keep abreast of all potential adversary weapon systems?
> 
> It is highly unlikely that USAF/USN will show up for a knife-fight without the biggest turkey carver....I thought I would just put some seasonal cheer into this drab and repetitve forum post!!!!




And some how you think the rest who too spend as much as $ 100B on defense are doing nothing about it.

Thats what the other poster was telling.... It is Highly unlikely that with all that defense budget and modernization available allround... Su30MKI would hardly show up for WVR without the longest slicer.. It works both ways... IAF got a good evaluation on the part of latest Americans had to offer with their most modern F-16 and most modern Super Hornet(4.75 gen).. and Upgraded the MKI fleet accordingly... with the latest R-77 RVV-SD and R-74 missiles.

Avoiding WVR and not showing up for WVR are two different things.... Su30MKI being excellent at in WVR can avoid that thanks to its superior BVR and EW capability.


----------



## Black Widow

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> First what is "HEAVY" class and how is it different from a MRCA? Do you think F-15 is a heavy class Or MRCA? >>>It is hard to argue with someone who uses arcane terms to win an argument.
> 
> You had asked a question:"The question is why it will come closer???? Have you heard in last 30 years F15 did a close range fighting??? .." Is that not your question? I supplied you with a fact that directly refutes your implication in the question. Is that not correct, now you want to dither into a ramblefest with no real direction. My POINT was that do not use bad arguments to support your contention.......BTW Have you read the book "The argumentative Indian" it is by an Indian before you get all prideful.
> 
> The BVR scenario you are using to scare the Paks was only applicable when in Kargil they had no BVR and you could shoot them at BVR ranges. Now they have rectified that deficiency. The ultra-long range "shoot & scoot" philosophy you are using was coined by USAF for F/A-22A Raptor armed with one of the best airborne Radars and AIM-120D\C-8. You keep impressing Paks that you can shoot & scoot without meeting any of their fighters.
> 
> The problem with that is your aircraft is NOT low-observable\stealth like Raptor. They will see it coming with their surveillance radars. You do not have AMRAAM 120D. Your Amraamski CAN be jammed. You may shoot and scoot. How will you know it hit anything? And lastly after a Flanky has shot his BVRAAM load and turns to exit.....is it not possible that a Pakistani fighter may scope him out as he extends back home? Is it NOT evenly remotely possible?
> 
> If these HEAVY fighters NEVER engage in WVR combat then you better let the RAF know 'cause they just put a video on TheAviationistdotCom showing 2 Typhoons (A HEAVY CLASS per your peculiar classification) successfully engaging 2 Turkish vipers (MRCA or point defence planes per you classificaton). Please let them know it is no longer a worthwhile endeavor!
> 
> And speaking of being contextually clued in....I have not seen any of *my countrymen* on this topic ...Please feel free to point them out to me....
> 
> Or next time when bragging about you weapon system just use accurate & cogent argument.
> 
> I could not make any sense of you last sentence about cold war and 10 exchanges. Do read up on PAF kills during First Afghan War, Israeli Viper kills over Bekaa, Sinai. Tomcats in Iran-Iraq war. Is that enough context for you?







Look like I misunderstood u as Pakistani.. Sorry for confusion. Secondly as you pick my last post you may misunderstood the context.

Finally I agree that I am less knowledgeable than you in weapon technology, and I learn form ppl like you. You guys are source of knowledge, so in future I will defy seek ur guidance.

There are few thing I would like to put into your consideration before you totally misunderstand me..
a) The topic is PAF Vs Su30MKI, not USAF Vs Su30MKI.
b) The discussion is about 4th generation fighters, not 5th generation fighters, So F22, T50, J20 excluded.
c) As we all know for 4th gen fighters RCS hardly matters, They will be detected within targeting range.
d) The BiG question is " How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI"


@ heavy fighter : There was a WIKI page on category of fighter planes, Havy weight (~30 Tonns) , Medium weight class (20 Tonns), light weight (8-12 Tonns). I am unable to find that page..


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

DARKY said:


> And some how you think the rest who too spend as much as $ 100B on defense are doing nothing about it.................
> Avoiding WVR and not showing up for WVR are two different things.... Su30MKI being excellent at in WVR can avoid that thanks to its superior BVR and EW capability.



Are you publicly stating the Indian Defence Budget at $100Billion? 

Even then there is a magnitude of 7 difference. Plus US budget is procurement & maintenance. Wars, development costs borne by Defence Industry are not included. Intelligence is a separate blockbuster. Lastly US does not see India as an adversary nor is AA-12 Adder (Izdeliye 170) Indian origin weapon. Nevertheless, let me assure you that AA-12 is a very good BVRAAM of 1980s vintage with some further development. Let us just end on this. "AIM-120D \C-8 is being deployed with taking all this into account". Unless you want to make history here by telling us AA-12 has been tested at extreme ranges of 1XX nm by Indian Flankers with kill probablility >50 under dense electronic jamming & clutter....that would just make my day!!!!

One last thing before I bail; what does this actually mean? ..."*Su30MKI being excellent at in WVR can avoid that thanks to its superior BVR..*" Huh? Mighty cryptic?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

Too many scenarios being used which dont apply to indo pak conflict or potential conflict.

TO TVVELVEMO$

There is no F22 OR TYPHOON in our scenario not even close regardless if its F16/52 or mki

MKI is not going to jumped on by PAF plane and be surprised,,,, ITS BARS radar of massive seach tracking range and twice the speed of the paf KLJ7 or APG radars will ensure the MKI sees first reacts first...

PAF combat fleet is deploying inferior combat planes to MKI ........BE IT F16, F7 OR JFT /mirage5 so the only way they are going to successfully counter mki is thru using force multiplers like awacs or GCC backed by SAMS and outnumbering mki in any particular mission.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> Mr Sandy 3126, I understand that you & Paks are going hot & heavy but Raytheon AMRAAM AIM-120 D / C-8 is currently being fully fledged out and the "true" range and Kill Zone are Classified. I doubt you got hold of that information.
> 
> I assure you in comparing systems being currently live-tested or deployed worldwide *only* Meteor is a serious contender. Let's deal in facts and not bluster. Range and accuracy are two different parameters you need to pay attention. Have a nice day.



Dear sir, 
I wont comment on specs or deployment of RVV-SD. If you are confident that vympel is not capable of making high accuracy BVR seeker, I have nothing to say.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Vasily Zaytsev

See, countering Su 30 mki is very easy, see how ordinary it is !!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## 帅的一匹

J10B block2 will handle MKI, no need to worry.


----------



## Shinigami

wanglaokan said:


> J10B block2 will handle MKI, no need to worry.



why a j10b/? why not a j11/?


----------



## Muradk

danger007 said:


> What if they shot down your own JET??? lol then why don't you bring thousands of AGL instead of bringing costly fighter jets... huh...



You know you are right but after 71 Army has put in lots of effort into Air Defence, At first they had problems recognising the fighter now they don't. I have always said he is the most dangerous man on the ground because when he fire he will say
TO WHOM MAY IT CONCERN and fire. But things have changed a lot.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Muradk

Whao I read the posts very impressive. No trolling again very impressive. Everyone of you have a good amount of idea what goes on. The simple fact is just because you have the money you can't put your finger on the fighter and its yours. The amount of work put in to change the way you induct fighters is very difficult. There are so many factors involved in it that Air Force has to take them into account before making a decisions.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mav3rick

Agnostic_Indian said:


> In late 2007,
> India agreed to a 5 year lease of the
> Kalaikunda airbase in West Bengal
> to Singapore for training of the
> latter's air force 's F-16 fighter
> aircraft due to limited airspace in
> Singapore. This is the first New
> Delhi has ever leased out its
> military installations to foreign
> country on a long-term basis.
> 
> Foreign relations of Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The US Government is critical of any close inspection of their Jets such as the F-16 by opposition (read: Russia). Why in the world would they allow such with the Singaporean Air Force? It's just not possible.


----------



## Viper0011.

Black Widow said:


> Except some isolated Incident there are no incident that F15 allowed rivals to come closer.
> 
> The matter of fact is, you didn't read the entire context. ur countrymen put forward the theory that Heavy class fighters can be countered using MRCAs or point defense fighter in WVR, My argument was "Why Heavy fighter involve in WVR when they can wipe out rival from a long distance?"
> 
> For your "American AMRAAM" : During cold war, your teen countered MiG25, total 10 Missile exchanged (including American AMRAAM), without any kill. We all know what Iraqi MiGs were, They were outdated.



I am confused....how do you classify 'heavy class' and 'MRCA'? I think the terms can be interchangeable. There is a LOT more to a jet then twin turbines for it to be classified as a Heavy Class and also as an MRCA !!
In the case of India and Pak (I've written about it like 50 times), the BVR option doesn't exactly work in India's favor. You guys are neighbors, you FOB's are within a 5-10 minutes supersonic sprint from each other. And due to the proximity, the radar with a 300 KM range is not better than a radar with 100 KM range. They'll both lock each other at similar distances and timings, i.e. when the aircraft get closer to the border and the other party scrambles their jets from an airbase or FOB closer to the border.
This isn't an F-22 scenario and nor any Indian jets are stealth. BVR's will be fired and then they will miss. Then WVR will happen. So don't count on 'long range kills' as you'll lose tremendously. This scenario calls out for a WVR + BVR combat. Not just the BVR combat!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> Oh yes hence the reply.
> 
> I am not the usual honey pot all PAF praise here you must realize before indulging.
> 
> I asked you a basic question that how does your JF-17 fire an AIM-120... you have been puking BS all over the thread and don't even have the reason... I recommend you the JF-17 information pool of this forum go and read the length and come back when you find If any JF-17 ever had Aim120 integrated with their radar.
> 
> Only a retard thinks JF-17 being equal to a Su30MKI... you beat even the fanboys on that.
> 
> And Here I say again... those Su27 and Su30s are no where near a Su30MKI that's something even the worst of the worst troll bots know here... only Su30MKM, Su30MKA and Su35 versions are close.
> And I repeat the same thing once more... IAF pilots fly F-16block52 of Singapore AF every year they are in India and are evaluated with every new development on those jets.
> 
> I never went to any level...



What kind of stupid questions are you full of? And how am I supposed to answer your stupid questions as in how JFT fires an AIM-120C5. How does the JFT fire anything? How does the F-16 fire Nuclear Capable Missiles? Have you any idea about the JFT Radar? What language its code is written in? You speak as if you are intimate with developments of JFT.

I am not thinking that JFT is equal to a SU-30MKI, I'm only saying that the JFT can successfully take on the MKI within Pakistani airspace under cover of SAM and AWEACS. Plus other ground based EW assets. 

When I speak of SU-27 & SU-30, I speak of all of their different versions available with friendly countries including Malaysia/China etc.

India has no access to Singaporean F-16's and that's a fact. Just like PAF had no access to drones that were stationed within Pakistan.


----------



## arp2041

orangzaib said:


> I am confused....how do you classify 'heavy class' and 'MRCA'? I think the terms can be interchangeable. There is a LOT more to a jet then twin turbines for it to be classified as a Heavy Class and also as an MRCA !!
> In the case of India and Pak (I've written about it like 50 times), the BVR option doesn't exactly work in India's favor. You guys are neighbors, you FOB's are within a 5-10 minutes supersonic sprint from each other. And due to the proximity, the radar with a 300 KM range is not better than a radar with 100 KM range. They'll both lock each other at similar distances and timings, i.e. when the aircraft get closer to the border and the other party scrambles their jets from an airbase or FOB closer to the border.
> This isn't an F-22 scenario and nor any Indian jets are stealth. BVR's will be fired and then they will miss. Then WVR will happen. So don't count on 'long range kills' as you'll lose tremendously. This scenario calls out for a WVR + BVR combat. Not just the BVR combat!




Usually an ac of <15 tonne weight comes in Light weight category, eg. LCA.
15 to 25 tonnes comes in MRCA eg. Rafale.
& >25 tonnes comes in heavy weight, eg. su-30s.

Technically, it has nothing to do with twin engines. While PAF maintains ac only in Light & Medium weight categories, IAF doctrines calls for maintaining a mix of all 3 weight categories.

As for BVR option, it is very much valid in Indo-Pak scenario, nearly all PAF bases are near to Indian borders & Pakistan's width is 500-600km at max, Pakistan is at disadvantage here, but don't forget IAF has su-30mki bases as far as Assam besides the bases on Indo-Pak border, with growing AAR capability of IAF, i will not be surprised if u see a su-30 base coming up in A&N, this STRATEGIC DEPTH gives massive advantage to IAF over PAF.


----------



## Mav3rick

Yeti said:


> How did they Fly? There is a lot of stuff on the subject in the newspapers and magazines about this airplane. There's a great video on youtube, where somebody shows the F-22 flying its demo, and the Su-30MK, side by side, and he does the exact same demonstration, as the F-22. And an airshow, then can do the same demonstration. The reality is, that's about as close as the airplanes ever get. When you compare it with US airplanes; where does it stand up against the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than we are. And that's pretty impressive,* it has better radar, more thrust, vectored thrust, longer ranged weapons,* so it's pretty impressive. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better).
> 
> Red Flag 2008-4 : Lecture by USAF Col. Terrence Fornof
> 
> 
> Su-30MKI has the edge even vs the F16/F15 (subject to the block)



I have also seen/read interviews of USAF pilots that flew against the F-22 and they said that they could get into position to shoot it down but the problem is that their radar cannot lock on to the F-22. That's not the case with MKI, radars will be able to lock on to the MKI from as far as 100+ km. So selective maneuvers that copy the F-22 may look fancy but how effective they would be in actual combat is yet to be seen.

[OFF TOPIC] By the way, I am being totally off topic but I personally think that in 20 years or so air wars may be fought exclusively by drones, they can perform maneuvers that would break a human body apart, they can be smaller and stealthier and they all do not even need to carry radars as the missiles can be guided by multiple AWACS (to defend the air space). They would cost a lot less and they can be sacrificed against a target, etc. [/BACK ON TOPIC]


----------



## Mav3rick

arp2041 said:


> Usually an ac of <15 tonne weight comes in Light weight category, eg. LCA.
> 15 to 25 tonnes comes in MRCA eg. Rafale.
> & >25 tonnes comes in heavy weight, eg. su-30s.
> 
> Technically, it has nothing to do with twin engines. While PAF maintains ac only in Light & Medium weight categories, IAF doctrines calls for maintaining a mix of all 3 weight categories.
> 
> As for BVR option, it is very much valid in Indo-Pak scenario, nearly all PAF bases are near to Indian borders & Pakistan's width is 500-600km at max, Pakistan is at disadvantage here, but don't forget IAF has su-30mki bases as far as Assam besides the bases on Indo-Pak border, with growing AAR capability of IAF, i will not be surprised if u see a su-30 base coming up in A&N, this STRATEGIC DEPTH gives massive advantage to IAF over PAF.



India can only use the strategic depth only to store her Aircraft out of PAF's reach, otherwise there is no point. And with the missiles available with bother countries that can cover the other country's every corner, why bother at all.


----------



## arp2041

Mav3rick said:


> India can only use the strategic depth only to store her Aircraft out of PAF's reach, otherwise there is no point. And with the missiles available with bother countries that can cover the other country's every corner, why bother at all.



Isn't STRATEGIC DEPTH all about saving a country's assets from the enemy??

+ The missiles which u are talking about can't be used as a conventional war weapon since they are NUCLEAR MISSILES used only for the purpose of Nuclear weapons delivery, it cannot be launched with a conventional warhead either by India or Pakistan, since it will be wrongly taken as a nuclear attack by the other & can initiate nuclear response. The only missile which can be used by Pakistan is Babur in a conventional scenario, whose range is limited to just 700km (not sufficient to cover whole of India), while India's equivalent of Babur i.e. Nirbhay (range-1000+) will be more than enough to cover whole Pakistan.


----------



## The Deterrent

arp2041 said:


> + The missiles which u are talking about can't be used as a conventional war weapon since they are NUCLEAR MISSILES used only for the purpose of Nuclear weapons delivery,


Not necessarily. Hatf-2 Abdali has a conventional role and Hatf-3 Ghaznavi and Hatf-4 Shaheen-I have partial ones.



> it cannot be launched with a conventional warhead either by India or Pakistan, since it will be wrongly taken as a nuclear attack by the other & can initiate nuclear response.


Negative. Both India and Pakistan do not possess as robust nuclear launch capability as the USA, USSR, China, France and UK. The retaliatory responses will only initiate after the confirmation of a nuclear detonation in the respective countries. Moreover, the proximity of both countries does not allows for prompt retaliation. It will take a few hours for both sides to initiate any kind of response through the land based missiles. (Air-delivered weapons and SLBMs are exceptions, it will take them tens of minutes only).



> The only missile which can be used by Pakistan is Babur in a conventional scenario, whose range is limited to just 700km (not sufficient to cover whole of India), while India's equivalent of Babur i.e. Nirbhay (range-1000+) will be more than enough to cover whole Pakistan.


Count in Ra'ad ALCM and above mentioned systems too. 
There is a difference between a system tested 7 years back and a yet-to-be-seen system. Furthermore, Babur's range will not remain restricted to 700 km.


----------



## Mav3rick

arp2041 said:


> Isn't STRATEGIC DEPTH all about saving a country's assets from the enemy??
> 
> + The missiles which u are talking about can't be used as a conventional war weapon since they are NUCLEAR MISSILES used only for the purpose of Nuclear weapons delivery, it cannot be launched with a conventional warhead either by India or Pakistan, since it will be wrongly taken as a nuclear attack by the other & can initiate nuclear response. The only missile which can be used by Pakistan is Babur in a conventional scenario, whose range is limited to just 700km (not sufficient to cover whole of India), while India's equivalent of Babur i.e. Nirbhay (range-1000+) will be more than enough to cover whole Pakistan.



You are incorrect, these missiles are actually conventional payload missiles that can also deliver a Nuclear warhead.


----------



## Storm Force

Pakistan has very littlle offensive capability top attack india with planes.

They are equipped with defensive fighters like F7 F16 & JFT.. LACKING RANGE AND PAYLOAD.. 

IF THEY ARE relying on missles to hit india its very hit and miss es[pecially as IAF will scatter planes all over the place. 

INDIA HAS NINE DIFFERENT offensive ballistic missles & cruise missles yet THESE will play a secondary role to mki mirage2000 and jaguars in strike roles WAIT TIL THE RAFALE ARRIVES complete new ball game


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> The US Government is critical of any close inspection of their Jets such as the F-16 by opposition (read: Russia). Why in the world would they allow such with the Singaporean Air Force? It's just not possible.



India is not Russia, we train with them, they offered better version of f16 to India, so it's no big deal to fly singapur air force's bird's. if Americans were concerned they wouldn't even allow those f16 to be placed in India and when we have f16blk 52's stationed inside our country for years, the same f16 versions which is used by our major enemy and you think we wouldn't grab that opportunity ? don't forget pak had even modified American supplied harpoons.


----------



## danger007

@Mav3rick: Do you think India will allow Singapore jets stationed Inside our territory without having any benefit?....

India is not pakistan to take money and allow others to use our territory ....
@Mav3rick: Do you think India will allow Singapore jets stationed Inside our territory without having any benefit?....

India is not pakistan to take money and allow others to use our territory ....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hasnain2009

Storm Force said:


> Pakistan has very littlle offensive capability top attack india with planes.
> 
> They are equipped with defensive fighters like F7 F16 & JFT.. LACKING RANGE AND PAYLOAD..



So the F16C/D is defensive fighter....good one mate.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Mav3rick said:


> The US Government is critical of any close inspection of their Jets such as the F-16 by opposition (read: Russia). Why in the world would they allow such with the Singaporean Air Force? It's just not possible.



So the Singaproean AF stations its F-16s in an Indian AFB 24/7 365 days a year and there is 0 contact from Indian personal?? Please sir, this is a more than a little unlikely. At the same time I didn't see any aprehensions from the US when teams of experts from the IAF looked over every single technical detail of the very latest and most advanced F-16- the F-16IN (Blk 70). For the MMRCA competion the IAF looked in depth at every single parameter and design detail on all competing a/c not to mention engagin in numerous flight and weapon trails both in and outside of India- so surely there is very little the IAF doesn't know about the F-16 these days. Not even mentioning the pilot exchanges and close ties the IAF has with the Israeli AF.


----------



## Mav3rick

Agnostic_Indian said:


> India is not Russia, we train with them, they offered better version of f16 to India, so it's no big deal to fly singapur air force's bird's. if Americans were concerned they wouldn't even allow those f16 to be placed in India and when we have f16blk 52's stationed inside our country for years, the same f16 versions which is used by our major enemy and you think we wouldn't grab that opportunity ? don't forget pak had even modified American supplied harpoons.



Yes, they offered a better version of F-16 (plus F-18) as well to India including ToT I believe. But that was to make a multi billion $$ sale. Having been overlooked for the competition, do you think the Americans would allow evaluation of the F-16's that are in service with other countries? There shouldn't even be a debate about it.

It's not up to you to just grab an opportunity that is not there. Singapore would have an agreement with the US on what it can and cannot do with their F-16's. For all we know, Indian officials probably aren't even allowed on the airbase where these jets are stationed.

And lastly, let me also clarify another point, we did not modify any American Harpoons simply because we have much better and much more advanced alternates available with us for the purpose that we supposedly modified harpoons for. It was an Indian propaganda.



Storm Force said:


> Pakistan has very littlle offensive capability top attack india with planes.
> 
> They are equipped with defensive fighters like F7 F16 & JFT.. LACKING RANGE AND PAYLOAD..
> 
> IF THEY ARE relying on missles to hit india its very hit and miss es[pecially as IAF will scatter planes all over the place.
> 
> INDIA HAS NINE DIFFERENT offensive ballistic missles & cruise missles yet THESE will play a secondary role to mki mirage2000 and jaguars in strike roles WAIT TIL THE RAFALE ARRIVES complete new ball game



With missiles, it will not just be the air fields and air force bases.....it will be many other targets of value too. So whatever we get on the ground is good for us, rest we will face in the air within our own airspace where we setup the rules.



danger007 said:


> @Mav3rick: Do you think India will allow Singapore jets stationed Inside our territory without having any benefit?....
> 
> India is not pakistan to take money and allow others to use our territory ....



The benefit that you speak of is purely political, nothing else.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## majesticpankaj

^^^ what rubbish... pak has only 18 blk 52 which are also with string attached...

there is a complete story of f-16

The Hindu : News : Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels


----------



## Mav3rick

Abingdonboy said:


> So the Singaproean AF stations its F-16s in an Indian AFB 24/7 365 days a year and there is 0 contact from Indian personal?? Please sir, this is a more than a little unlikely. At the same time I didn't see any aprehensions from the US when teams of experts from the IAF looked over every single technical detail of the very latest and most advanced F-16- the F-16IN (Blk 70). For the MMRCA competion the IAF looked in depth at every single parameter and design detail on all competing a/c not to mention engagin in numerous flight and weapon trails both in and outside of India- so surely there is very little the IAF doesn't know about the F-16 these days. Not even mentioning the pilot exchanges and close ties the IAF has with the Israeli AF.



Yes....0 contact is is indeed the most likely outcome.


----------



## Paan Singh

Mav3rick said:


> Yes....0 contact is is indeed the most likely outcome.



This is how the U.S plays  .

They give you f-16's and also let us to know about it through different sources.

I dont know but indians pilots have got training on israeli f-16's and i read it 2-3 yrs back and in return israelis learned a lot about mig-29's as iran have them.

Similarly U.S have learned a lot from flankers.


----------



## Mav3rick

majesticpankaj said:


> ^^^ what rubbish... pak has only 18 blk 52 which are also with string attached...
> 
> there is a complete story of f-16
> 
> The Hindu : News : Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels



What rubbish, Earth has only 1 moon!!


----------



## majesticpankaj

Mav3rick said:


> What rubbish, Earth has only 1 moon!!



why don't u read it and englitened yourself....

even your former defence minister had said that pakistan can't stand for more than 2 weeks...

last time it was 13 days...this time u will have one extra day ..


----------



## Paan Singh

majesticpankaj said:


> why don't u read it and englitened yourself....
> 
> even your former defence minister had said that pakistan can't stand for more than 2 weeks...
> 
> last time it was 13 days...this time u will have one extra day ..



if gone for full fledge war then hardly 2-3 days

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Paan Singh said:


> This is how the U.S plays  .
> 
> They give you f-16's and also let us to know about it through different sources.
> 
> I dont know but indians pilots have got training on israeli f-16's and i read it 2-3 yrs back and in return israelis learned a lot about mig-29's as iran have them.
> 
> Similarly U.S have learned a lot from flankers.



No offense but if you think the US gives the SAME aircraft to everyone, including the Israelis, you are mistaken. There is a reason why Israel chose to put its own avionics pieces in the jet. While it is a common practice to bring major countries to the Red Flag and others, to primary evaluate their jets and show off some US capabilities, it's never apple to apple. Just wanted to clear some air.
Yes, the US wanted to give India the latest with build options within India. BUT those would STILL be different in capability wise compared to what the United States uses for its own military. That's actually the law too.


----------



## majesticpankaj

^^^ it applies for pakistan too...
downgraded version of f-16 to pakistan...


----------



## Viper0011.

majesticpankaj said:


> ^^^ it applies for pakistan too...
> downgraded version of f-16 to pakistan...



Never said that it didn't!!


----------



## Paan Singh

orangzaib said:


> No offense but if you think the US gives the SAME aircraft to everyone, including the Israelis, you are mistaken. There is a reason why Israel chose to put its own avionics pieces in the jet. While it is a common practice to bring major countries to the Red Flag and others, to primary evaluate their jets and show off some US capabilities, it's never apple to apple. Just wanted to clear some air.
> Yes, the US wanted to give India the latest with build options within India. BUT those would STILL be different in capability wise compared to what the United States uses for its own military. That's actually the law too.



Sir,israelis operate most advanced versions of the f-16's and singapore too .

Morever,F-16 blk 70 was tested during mmrca trials.


----------



## GURU DUTT

the best way to counter SU30MKI is just go for a war .But But but i guess there are many monkeys in the land of the pure with ustraas and want a war with india God please make there wish come tru


----------



## Paan Singh

and @orangzaib


kindly read the wikileaks on pakistani f-16's


----------



## Contrarian

Mav3rick said:


> Yes....0 contact is is indeed the most likely outcome.


You are mistaken then, since that is not the case. There are umpteen undeclared exercises between the Singaporean Sqdrn stationed here with the IAF.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> Yes, they offered a better version of F-16 (plus F-18) as well to India including ToT I believe. But that was to make a multi billion $$ sale. Having been overlooked for the competition, do you think the Americans would allow evaluation of the F-16's that are in service with other countries? There shouldn't even be a debate about it.
> 
> It's not up to you to just grab an opportunity that is not there. Singapore would have an agreement with the US on what it can and cannot do with their F-16's. For all we know, Indian officials probably aren't even allowed on the airbase where these jets are stationed.
> 
> And lastly, let me also clarify another point, we did not modify any American Harpoons simply because we have much better and much more advanced alternates available with us for the purpose that we supposedly modified harpoons for. It was an Indian propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> With missiles, it will not just be the air fields and air force bases.....it will be many other targets of value too. So whatever we get on the ground is good for us, rest we will face in the air within our own airspace where we setup the rules.
> 
> 
> 
> The benefit that you speak of is purely political, nothing else.



since we have those fighter stationed here I believe it's pretty logical to assume that iaf will have some kind of access to those f16's. but for a debate purpose let's assume we don't have a secrect arrangement with RSAF even then we have regular exercises exchange of data with them since 2004 and same is the case with isreal's f16 force. we evaluated the most modern f16 in different conditions, on every technical parameter, combine all of this and you have a very good knowledge of what f16 can and cannot do , what are the strengths and weakness..etc 
btw the harpoon allegations were not from Indian side but from American authorities and media.


----------



## Pfpilot

majesticpankaj said:


> ^^^ what rubbish... pak has only 18 blk 52 which are also with string attached...
> 
> there is a complete story of f-16
> 
> The Hindu : News : Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels



That is not fair, you are deliberately misleading. The mid-life upgrade brings all of Pakistan's older f-16s up to the standard of the block 52s, for all intents and purposes. So 80 odd f-16s that have relatively advanced avionics are nothing to laugh at. Similarly, countless members have dispelled the myth of the limitations on the f-16s; they can be used against India and will be, in a war. The US will always curtail any potential use of their hardware against themselves, so obviously these f-16s are next to useless against them. India, on the other hand, is not the 51st US state, so the Americans have no reason to prevent the use of these f-16s against it. If the point is of sanctions, then that has been common knowledge since the 65 war. We may get sanctioned at the outbreak of a war with India, but those sanctions will have minimal impact on the capabilities of the f-16s in the said war.

The reality remains, the IAF is a formidable force, but with a limited ability to operate over Pakistani skies. The PAF presence is too concentrated to allow the IAF to consistently and successfully deliver the strike packages that can crush the Pakistani military machine from within. The PAF's weakness remains its offensive capability, and that is where the IAF will remain supreme. While Pakistani airspace will be well defended and hard to penetrate successfully, the Indian airspace defense will be even more formidable. 

Either way the presence of the f-16s, which are not small in number, nor toothless, is a major issue for the IAF. If the PAF keeps a large percentage of these aircraft from getting shot down, then the IAF has virtually no chance of gaining any consistent access to Pakistani airspace and will have to devote a larger portion of their aircraft to a defensive footing, in order to prevent any offensive moves led by those very f-16s. Again, that is not to say that the f-16s will run wild over India, but keeping a portion of the IAF forces on defense interception missions is a success in itself. This is because a Pak-Indo war will always be decidedly short and the Pakistani footing will be defensive, if not from the beginning, then soon after one of our ill thought out offensives go wrong. In that scenario, the PAF will be a serious adversary that the IAF will not take lightly. Consequently, the presence of f-16s to divert MKIs and the like to defensive roles and concurrently provide a point defense presence within Pakistan against those aircraft, is definitely not rubbish. The MKIs will operate in a similar role for the IAF, but for that reason, I am not discounting their effectiveness; I believe the same courtesy should be extended to PAF f-16s.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Contrarian

Pfpilot said:


> That is not fair, you are deliberately misleading. The mid-life upgrade brings all of Pakistan's older f-16s up to the standard of the block 52s, for all intents and purposes. So 80 odd f-16s that have relatively advanced avionics are nothing to laugh at. Similarly, countless members have dispelled the myth of the limitations on the f-16s; they can be used against India and will be, in a war. The US will always curtail any potential use of their hardware against themselves, so obviously these f-16s are next to useless against them. India, on the other hand, is not the 51st US state, so the Americans have no reason to prevent the use of these f-16s against it. If the point is of sanctions, then that has been common knowledge since the 65 war. We may get sanctioned at the outbreak of a war with India, but those sanctions will have minimal impact on the capabilities of the f-16s in the said war.
> 
> The reality remains, the IAF is a formidable force, but with a limited ability to operate over Pakistani skies. The PAF presence is too concentrated to allow the IAF to consistently and successfully deliver the strike packages that can crush the Pakistani military machine from within. The PAF's weakness remains its offensive capability, and that is where the IAF will remain supreme. While Pakistani airspace will be well defended and hard to penetrate successfully, the Indian airspace defense will be even more formidable.
> 
> Either way the presence of the f-16s, which are not small in number, nor toothless, is a major issue for the IAF. If the PAF keeps a large percentage of these aircraft from getting shot down, then the IAF has virtually no chance of gaining any consistent access to Pakistani airspace and will have to devote a larger portion of their aircraft to a defensive footing, in order to prevent any offensive moves led by those very f-16s. Again, that is not to say that the f-16s will run wild over India, but keeping a portion of the IAF forces on defense interception missions is a success in itself. This is because a Pak-Indo war will always be decidedly short and the Pakistani footing will be defensive, if not from the beginning, then soon after one of our ill thought out offensives go wrong. In that scenario, the PAF will be a serious adversary that the IAF will not take lightly. Consequently, the presence of f-16s to divert MKIs and the like to defensive roles and concurrently provide a point defense presence within Pakistan against those aircraft, is definitely not rubbish. The MKIs will operate in a similar role for the IAF, but for that reason, I am not discounting their effectiveness; I believe the same courtesy should be extended to PAF f-16s.



The only thing in this case is that while PAF has 80+ F-16's, IAF is replacing its MiG 21 fleet with Su-30MKI's. That means around 270 Su-30's along with 126 Rafale's.

The numbers dont stack up well at all for PAF, even for a defensive fight. It would have to some extent had PAF been fielding technologically superior aircrafts compared to IAF. That is not the case.


----------



## rockstarIN

Pfpilot said:


> That is not fair, you are deliberately misleading. The mid-life upgrade brings all of Pakistan's older f-16s up to the standard of the block 52s, for all intents and purposes. So 80 odd f-16s that have relatively advanced avionics are nothing to laugh at. Similarly, countless members have dispelled the myth of the limitations on the f-16s; they can be used against India and will be, in a war. The US will always curtail any potential use of their hardware against themselves, so obviously these f-16s are next to useless against them. India, on the other hand, is not the 51st US state, so the Americans have no reason to prevent the use of these f-16s against it. If the point is of sanctions, then that has been common knowledge since the 65 war. We may get sanctioned at the outbreak of a war with India, but those sanctions will have minimal impact on the capabilities of the f-16s in the said war.
> 
> The reality remains, the IAF is a formidable force, but with a limited ability to operate over Pakistani skies. The PAF presence is too concentrated to allow the IAF to consistently and successfully deliver the strike packages that can crush the Pakistani military machine from within. The PAF's weakness remains its offensive capability, and that is where the IAF will remain supreme. While Pakistani airspace will be well defended and hard to penetrate successfully, the Indian airspace defense will be even more formidable.
> 
> Either way the presence of the f-16s, which are not small in number, nor toothless, is a major issue for the IAF. If the PAF keeps a large percentage of these aircraft from getting shot down, then the IAF has virtually no chance of gaining any consistent access to Pakistani airspace and will have to devote a larger portion of their aircraft to a defensive footing, in order to prevent any offensive moves led by those very f-16s. Again, that is not to say that the f-16s will run wild over India, but keeping a portion of the IAF forces on defense interception missions is a success in itself. This is because a Pak-Indo war will always be decidedly short and the Pakistani footing will be defensive, if not from the beginning, then soon after one of our ill thought out offensives go wrong. In that scenario, the PAF will be a serious adversary that the IAF will not take lightly. Consequently, the presence of f-16s to divert MKIs and the like to defensive roles and concurrently provide a point defense presence within Pakistan against those aircraft, is definitely not rubbish. The MKIs will operate in a similar role for the IAF, but for that reason, I am not discounting their effectiveness; I believe the same courtesy should be extended to PAF f-16s.



F-16s will be the biggest threat for IAF indeed. But in a small full conventional war, 70 odd F-16 can be hold out with 100+Su-30s+m2k+Mig29s. 
Not being a fan of the Aussie copp here, but in case of such an unfortunate event, IAFs first targets will be your C4 system, specially AWACs. PAF offensive against in Indian skies will be very risky provided the lack of AWACS cover and the Indian SAM systems. 120+ BVR capable Bisons with AWACs support will be a good deterrent too for PAF.



Contrarian said:


> The only thing in this case is that while PAF has 80+ F-16's, IAF is replacing its MiG 21 fleet with Su-30MKI's. That means around 270 Su-30's along with 126 Rafale's.
> 
> The numbers dont stack up well at all for PAF, even for a defensive fight. It would have to some extent had PAF been fielding technologically superior aircrafts compared to IAF. That is not the case.


Their major advantage will be their network centric systems over their skies.


----------



## Mav3rick

majesticpankaj said:


> why don't u read it and englitened yourself....
> 
> even your former defence minister had said that pakistan can't stand for more than 2 weeks...
> 
> last time it was 13 days...this time u will have one extra day ..



Why don't you enlighten yourself, defense Minister is a far fetched thing, your former army chief stated that you do not have munitions to fight for more then 2 days!

And your courage was evident from the Kargil/Parliament attack episodes.



Paan Singh said:


> if gone for full fledge war then hardly 2-3 days



Exactly, as you don't have ammunition to go beyond 2 days!


----------



## Mav3rick

Contrarian said:


> The only thing in this case is that while PAF has 80+ F-16's, IAF is replacing its MiG 21 fleet with Su-30MKI's. That means around 270 Su-30's along with 126 Rafale's.
> 
> The numbers dont stack up well at all for PAF, even for a defensive fight. It would have to some extent had PAF been fielding technologically superior aircrafts compared to IAF. That is not the case.



We have JFT's to counter all your Jets including the MKI's and those JFT's will also be complemented by F-16's & AWACS in the air. I will not even talk about the ground based assets. By the time you have your 272 MKI's we will have 80+ F-16's & 100+ JFT's. By the time you have your 126 Rafale, we will have something to counter it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

pfP[ILOT

PAF has only 63 F16 (not 80 as you suggested ) . ie 44 F16 which are being upgraded & 18 brand new F16/52... 

IT WILL BECOME 80 if you BUY the other 18 block 52s that where offered to you with the FIRST BATCH OF 18 recently.

TO DATE PAF has not excercised this option to buy 18 more F16/52 something i find odd especially since the IAF are adding 20 SU30MKI EACH YEAR TO ITS FLEET. 

i THINK THE PAF has put off by the user restrictions on the NEW BATCH OF F16s so will stik to JFT.

UNLESS YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY PAF has NOT brought those other 18 i,lm all EARS

MAV3RICK 

Re your comment _PAF will set the rules over PAK AIRSPACE if india attacks _

You couldnt be MORE WRONG.

in war since the dawn of time BUT especially since MODERN AIR WARE FARE times ITS THE ATTACKING SIDE that dictates where, time, duration, target, and size of operation. AS A DEFENSIVE FORCE you are letting india dictate how the airwar over pakistan pans out.


----------



## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> pfP[ILOT
> 
> PAF has only 63 F16 (not 80 as you suggested ) . ie 44 F16 which are being upgraded & 18 brand new F16/52...
> 
> IT WILL BECOME 80 if you BUY the other 18 block 52s that where offered to you with the FIRST BATCH OF 18 recently.
> 
> TO DATE PAF has not excercised this option to buy 18 more F16/52 something i find odd especially since the IAF are adding 20 SU30MKI EACH YEAR TO ITS FLEET.
> 
> i THINK THE PAF has put off by the user restrictions on the NEW BATCH OF F16s so will stik to JFT.
> 
> UNLESS YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY PAF has NOT brought those other 18 i,lm all EARS
> 
> MAV3RICK
> 
> Re your comment _PAF will set the rules over PAK AIRSPACE if india attacks _
> 
> You couldnt be MORE WRONG.
> 
> in war since the dawn of time BUT especially since MODERN AIR WARE FARE times ITS THE ATTACKING SIDE that dictates where, time, duration, target, and size of operation. AS A DEFENSIVE FORCE you are letting india dictate how the airwar over pakistan pans out.



Thats the idea, let them come, and unleash the "surprise".

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

I think I can keep reposting 3-4 posts in this thread over and over again....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Contrarian

Mav3rick said:


> We have JFT's to counter all your Jets including the MKI's and those JFT's will also be complemented by F-16's & AWACS in the air. I will not even talk about the ground based assets. By the time you have your 272 MKI's we will have 80+ F-16's & 100+ JFT's. By the time you have your 126 Rafale, we will have something to counter it.



You assume that. And look at the difference in the quality of assets. India replaces MiG 21 with a 1:1 ratio of Su-30MKI.
You replace it with JF-17. India buys Rafale , Pakistan keeps buying JF-17.

And this will make a difference coupled with absolute numerical superiority.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hasnain2009

Paan Singh said:


> if gone for full fledge war then hardly 2-3 days



30mins friend, Shaheen-II would not take more than 30min to reach eastern parts of india.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notorious_eagle

Contrarian said:


> You assume that. And look at the difference in the quality of assets. India replaces MiG 21 with a 1:1 ratio of Su-30MKI.
> You replace it with JF-17. India buys Rafale , Pakistan keeps buying JF-17.
> 
> And this will make a difference coupled with absolute numerical superiority.



The only problem is you are only comparing bird to bird. That itself is the fallacy in your perception. So what if India is replacing MIG21's with SU30MKI, it will only be a problem for PAF if its sending the JF17's to fight them 1 on 1. But fortunately, aerial warfare is not fought 1 on 1 between birds. There are a whole set of other factors that come into play that can change the face of the aerial warfare. 

It are only fanboys whom look at fancy new birds and start comparing their specs with other birds. But a real war is fought by keeping multiple factors in mind backed up by a multi layered comprehensive strategy. It is not just the aerial birds that the pilot has to worry about but what about the threat from the ground. What if the enemy pilot forces you to drop down to 1000 ft and let his hidden gunners on the ground slaughter you in the air. 

Looking at the stance of Indian Air Head Quarters, it appears that they are not confident of downing the PAF in their prescribed strategy. This is why they haven't itched to fight it out, and that is why they are adding additional hardware to counter PAF's improvement in her gaps. 

Numerical superiority does not exist in Indo-Pak warfare. For argument sakes, lets say that IAF intends to field 750 fighters against PAF's 350. First of all, IAF is not going to throw up all her birds in the air and attack PAF in massive formations as seen in World War 2. In today's modern warfare, strike packages are the name of the game and the question is how many strike packages can the IAF afford to send. That being said, IAF needs to insert atleast 2-3 squadrons near her border against China to protect her flank. Great AF's operate under the doctrine of not what the intention of the enemy is but what the enemy is capable of. After that, IAF needs to split up her forces into Air Defence, Air Superiority and Close Air Support. Where exactly is the numerical superiority

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## datalibdaz

Storm Force said:


> pfP[ILOT
> 
> *PAF has only 63 F16 (not 80 as you suggested ) *. ie 44 F16 which are being upgraded & 18 brand new F16/52...
> 
> IT WILL BECOME 80 if you BUY the other 18 block 52s that where offered to you with the FIRST BATCH OF 18 recently.
> 
> TO DATE PAF has not excercised this option to buy 18 more F16/52 something i find odd especially since the IAF are adding 20 SU30MKI EACH YEAR TO ITS FLEET.
> 
> i THINK THE PAF has put off by the user restrictions on the NEW BATCH OF F16s so will stik to JFT.
> 
> UNLESS YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY PAF has NOT brought those other 18 i,lm all EARS
> 
> MAV3RICK
> 
> Re your comment _PAF will set the rules over PAK AIRSPACE if india attacks _
> 
> You couldnt be MORE WRONG.
> 
> in war since the dawn of time BUT especially since MODERN AIR WARE FARE times ITS THE ATTACKING SIDE that dictates where, time, duration, target, and size of operation. AS A DEFENSIVE FORCE you are letting india dictate how the airwar over pakistan pans out.




The number of F16 's are 87 of which 4 were destroyed in accidents, So now PAF has 83 F 16's...Please correct your facts.


----------



## ziaulislam

PAKISTAN HAS 67 F-16 plus 14 MIGHT BE released..
i think these 80 odd f-16s will be core force that are comparable to 270 odd MKIs(once induction completes)..j-10Bs will be the core answer to 120 Rafale..
again there isnt a answer ot specific aircraft..in another word every PAF fighter can take Su-30 (thunder/f-16s) in combine intergated warfare scenrio

in the end PAF will try to keep nos and strength ratio of approx 1: 2.5 to 1:3, as it has in past

a number of around 350 ACs (150 jf-17s, 150 f-16s+j-10s and 50 odd f-7pg) will be desire strength till 2020, after which 50-60 odd 5th gen ACs will be PAF target

this will be against 800 odd IAF fighters with approx 150 5th gen ac to be inducted

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> Are you publicly stating the Indian Defence Budget at $100Billion?
> 
> Even then there is a magnitude of 7 difference. Plus US budget is procurement & maintenance. Wars, development costs borne by Defence Industry are not included. Intelligence is a separate blockbuster. Lastly US does not see India as an adversary nor is AA-12 Adder (Izdeliye 170) Indian origin weapon. Nevertheless, let me assure you that AA-12 is a very good BVRAAM of 1980s vintage with some further development. Let us just end on this. "AIM-120D \C-8 is being deployed with taking all this into account". Unless you want to make history here by telling us AA-12 has been tested at extreme ranges of 1XX nm by Indian Flankers with kill probablility >50 under dense electronic jamming & clutter....that would just make my day!!!!
> 
> One last thing before I bail; what does this actually mean? ..."*Su30MKI being excellent at in WVR can avoid that thanks to its superior BVR..*" Huh? Mighty cryptic?



Neither did I include the developmental costs borne by the Industry.
I agree about Intelligence... Hence the MMRCA evaluations on the F-16block70... and SH with their latest AESA radars and weapon systems including Aim120D.
Not to say about the yearly exercises with Singapore and Israeli air forces to know more on earleir blocks of F-16 and Aim120.

India too doesn't see US as its adversary... while the US is trying to enter the defense market in India they are also trying to built a strategic partnership.

Aim120 is roughly of the same time with additional improvement.. although agree I that RVV-SD would fall behind Aim120D in performance electronically and in kinematics(due to the dual-pulse rocket motor)... However it is well upto the mark with C5/6 versions electronically with better performance in kinematics and range.

Such simulations are usually carried by IAF in different air exercise and for weapon testing... however little is available about such tests.

Thats based on the evaluation conducted thought the years and using different data from overs scores of air exercises between different aircrafts and Su30MKI... without escort support by EW aircrafts... Its hard to survive against a Su30MKI.


----------



## Mav3rick

Contrarian said:


> You assume that. And look at the difference in the quality of assets. India replaces MiG 21 with a 1:1 ratio of Su-30MKI.
> You replace it with JF-17. India buys Rafale , Pakistan keeps buying JF-17.
> 
> And this will make a difference coupled with absolute numerical superiority.



Now lets have a look at your assumptions:

1) All Mig-21's to be replaced by SU-30MKI whereas 7 squadrons (around 120) Mig-21's are supposed to be replaced by LCA. SU-30MKI strength is envisioned at 270-272 and no more.
2) PAF counters the acquisition of Rafale with JF-17 where as Rafale will most likely be countered by J-10B's. Since no order has been placed for Rafale, no order has been placed for J-10B's which also gives time to J-10B to mature and to fly with a Chinese engine.
3) Biggest assumption is that IAF will put up all the fighters against PAF and maintain nothing on other borders. While PAF will be focused entirely on IAF, IAF will have to maintain minimum deterrence strength on other borders.

Also, while MKI has almost reached developmental saturation point, JFT is only just starting and will continue to develop where as MKI will most likely take a while (if at all) to upgrade from the Super MKI model. Finally, I would like to request keep things realistic and to speak of current inventory and those that are either in production or under acquisition. *Rafale is yet to be ordered so I'd rather not talk about it or PAF's counter to it.*

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Storm Force

Replying to notorious 



> Where exactly is the numerical superiority



Air superiority in the 21st Century does not come in nos BUT in Technology, firepower, force multiplers, 

ie One Sqn of su30mki 18 planes carrying 180 BVRs between them supported by phalcon awacs for jamming and survallence is equal 40 thunders armed with 4 bvrs sd10s and one awacs. 

i am completely discounting other advantages of aoa, range , jammers ew suites and nos of simulataneous engagements.


----------



## applesauce

Storm Force said:


> Replying to notorious
> 
> 
> 
> Air superiority in the 21st Century does not come in nos BUT in Technology, firepower, force multiplers,
> 
> ie One Sqn of su30mki 18 planes carrying 180 BVRs between them supported by phalcon awacs for jamming and survallence is equal 40 thunders armed with 4 bvrs sd10s and one awacs.
> 
> i am completely discounting other advantages of aoa, range , jammers ew suites and nos of simulataneous engagements.



ahh but you also forget the costs, if one mki goes down, then what? cry to russia/israel/etc to ship you more parts? will they? at what costs? if one jf-17 goes down it can be replaced quickly either by Pakistan itself or "rush ordered" from china.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## airomerix

Comparasion of AIM-120C-5 to AA-12 is an insult to AMRAAM itself. The accuracy and reliability of AIM-120C still leaves every other European/Chinese/Russian BVR behind let alone the D and later C versions. 

Even the RAF requested the EADs to integrate AMRAAM on to the Typhoon which is yet another evidence of its roaring sucess. Honestly a pilot would want a Mig at an airshow but in a combat F-16/F-15s are still unmatched.


----------



## notorious_eagle

Storm Force said:


> Replying to notorious
> 
> 
> 
> Air superiority in the 21st Century does not come in nos BUT in Technology, firepower, force multiplers,
> 
> ie One Sqn of su30mki 18 planes carrying 180 BVRs between them supported by phalcon awacs for jamming and survallence is equal 40 thunders armed with 4 bvrs sd10s and one awacs.
> 
> i am completely discounting other advantages of aoa, range , jammers ew suites and nos of simulataneous engagements.



If i am the pilot of SU30MKI; as soon as i see the enemy pilot painting me and launching his BVR missiles, the first thing i will do is jettison my external fuel tanks and extra BVR missiles to take evasive manoeuvres. SU30MKI's huge RCS means that the enemy will spot this machine from miles and miles away. But spotting the M2K's and the Rafale's, thats going to be tricky. I am more afraid of these planes than the SU30MKI punching through PAF's defences.




Pfpilot said:


> The PAF's weakness remains its offensive capability, and that is where the IAF will remain supreme. While Pakistani airspace will be well defended and hard to penetrate successfully, the Indian airspace defense will be even more formidable.



Sir

You are right about the fact that PAF has limited ability to operate over Indian Air Space due to inferior numbers and quality of jets. But that being said, PAF has invested heavily in stand off range weapons. There is no reason to send a strike package for a long range aerial strike when a cruise missile or a long range glide bomb with pinpoint accuracy can do the same job.


----------



## Teeta

74 pages and people are still discussing how one professional air force will take on its enemy's aircraft? Is this a joke or something?

Su-30MKI isn't any F-22 or something...As far as I know, PAF operates F-16s, JF-17s , and AWACS.

These 4th generation fighters, armed with AIM-120Cs, backed by AWACS/data-link, would be more than enough to take on Su-30s....

Not to mention the ECM , air-defence units etc that Su-30s will face over hostile, heavily defended Pakistani skies....

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

While what you just wrote may point to some weaknesses in SU 30 -MKI but lets consider following points :-

1. SU-30 will not be alone . There would be multirole fighters like RAFALE , MIG-29s and Mirage -2000s who can match any ability of the advanced f-16s or f-18s . So if you are going for SU-30 , remember that a MIG-29 is right on your 6 '0 clock. Now let me tell you , people still avoid a dogfight with MIG-29 . It still appears in the nightmares of US pilots.

2. SU-30 is not just a fighter , its a weapon platform , you can call its a big daddy . At any time , it would be carrying high intensity and precision bombs , jammers , anit-aircraft-missiles , rockets and cruise missile and simultaneously it will be fighting.

3. Like everybody already said , its a mini AWAC. It has an extended range of 3000 kms . Let me remind you that it has been specifically designed for our stronger neighbour. During the war with our neighbour (in west) , it may act as force multiplier.


4. The real fights will be between Mig-29s , Mirage-2000s , Rafles from one side to F-16s , JF-17s , Mirages etc at other side . All these aircrafts are higly agile and true multirole fighters .

Having said that , the best team will win.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J11 will do our Airforce some benefits


----------



## Teeta

Babbar-Khalsa said:


> While what you just wrote may point to some weaknesses in SU 30 -MKI but lets consider following points :-
> 
> 1. SU-30 will not be alone . There would be multirole fighters like RAFALE , MIG-29s and Mirage -2000s who can match any ability of the advanced f-16s or f-18s . So if you are going for SU-30 , remember that a MIG-29 is right on your 6 '0 clock. Now let me tell you , *people still avoid a dogfight with MIG-29 . It still appears in the nightmares of US pilots.
> *
> 2. SU-30 is not just a fighter , its a weapon platform , you can call its a big daddy . At any time , it would be carrying high intensity and precision bombs , jammers , anit-aircraft-missiles , rockets and *cruise missile and simultaneously it will be fighting.
> *
> 3. Like everybody already said , its a mini AWAC. It has an extended range of *3000 kms* . Let me remind you that it has been specifically designed for our stronger neighbour. During the war with our neighbour (in west) , it may act as force multiplier.
> 
> 
> 4. The real fights will be between Mig-29s , Mirage-2000s , Rafles from one side to F-16s , JF-17s , Mirages etc at other side . All these aircrafts are higly agile and true multirole fighters .
> 
> Having said that , the best team will win.



You are wrong on bold parts.


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

Hasnain2009 said:


> 30mins friend, Shaheen-II would not take more than 30min to reach eastern parts of india.



The Shaheen-2 would be blown up in atmosphere if it takes that much time to reach East India. But let me assure you that after this act , the barrage of Prithvi and Agni would do in-comparable damage within 11 minutes.



Teeta said:


> You are wrong on bold parts.



If i am wrong , then please enlighten me.


----------



## Teeta

Babbar-Khalsa said:


> If i am wrong , then please enlighten me.



O.K....

In EVERY fight between Mig-29 and F-16, F-16 shot the mig down...I'm talking about real battles, not some "exercises"....

Secondly, U.S pilots don't have nightmares from anything. This isn't IAF we are talking about.....

Thirdly, Su-30 doesn't have the range of 3000 km, but 300 may be...Also, Mr Sukhoi Thirty isn't someone special. Every plane will be carrying jammers, ECM pod, precision strike munitions, rockets and what not. So lets come back to reality now. Su30 is just another 4th gen fighter...nothing big (no matter how badly indians want to believe)...

Lastly, su30 can carry just one cruise missile..and when it is carrying that..I dont think it would be 'fighting' at the same time....


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

notorious_eagle said:


> The only problem is you are only comparing bird to bird. That itself is the fallacy in your perception. So what if India is replacing MIG21's with SU30MKI, it will only be a problem for PAF if its sending the JF17's to fight them 1 on 1. But fortunately, aerial warfare is not fought 1 on 1 between birds. There are a whole set of other factors that come into play that can change the face of the aerial warfare.
> 
> It are only fanboys whom look at fancy new birds and start comparing their specs with other birds. But a real war is fought by keeping multiple factors in mind backed up by a multi layered comprehensive strategy. It is not just the aerial birds that the pilot has to worry about but what about the threat from the ground. What if the enemy pilot forces you to drop down to 1000 ft and let his hidden gunners on the ground slaughter you in the air.
> 
> Looking at the stance of Indian Air Head Quarters, it appears that they are not confident of downing the PAF in their prescribed strategy. This is why they haven't itched to fight it out, and that is why they are adding additional hardware to counter PAF's improvement in her gaps.
> 
> Numerical superiority does not exist in Indo-Pak warfare. For argument sakes, lets say that IAF intends to field 750 fighters against PAF's 350. First of all, IAF is not going to throw up all her birds in the air and attack PAF in massive formations as seen in World War 2. In today's modern warfare, strike packages are the name of the game and the question is how many strike packages can the IAF afford to send. That being said, IAF needs to insert atleast 2-3 squadrons near her border against China to protect her flank. Great AF's operate under the doctrine of not what the intention of the enemy is but what the enemy is capable of. After that, IAF needs to split up her forces into Air Defence, Air Superiority and Close Air Support. Where exactly is the numerical superiority



Well :-

1. Adding additional hardwares never means lack of confidence. 

2. Strike packages would be sent depending on resources in hand . Not to mention that IAF would be fully aware of the readiness of PAF and what to expect .

3. Numerical superiority is not a match -winner but it does affects the psyche.


----------



## Mav3rick

Babbar-Khalsa said:


> While what you just wrote may point to some weaknesses in SU 30 -MKI but lets consider following points :-
> 
> 1. SU-30 will not be alone . There would be multirole fighters like RAFALE , MIG-29s and Mirage -2000s who can match any ability of the advanced f-16s or f-18s . So if you are going for SU-30 , remember that a MIG-29 is right on your 6 '0 clock. Now let me tell you , people still avoid a dogfight with MIG-29 . It still appears in the nightmares of US pilots.
> 
> 2. SU-30 is not just a fighter , its a weapon platform , you can call its a big daddy . At any time , it would be carrying high intensity and precision bombs , jammers , anit-aircraft-missiles , rockets and cruise missile and simultaneously it will be fighting.
> 
> 3. Like everybody already said , its a mini AWAC. It has an extended range of 3000 kms . Let me remind you that it has been specifically designed for our stronger neighbour. During the war with our neighbour (in west) , it may act as force multiplier.
> 
> 
> 4. The real fights will be between Mig-29s , Mirage-2000s , Rafles from one side to F-16s , JF-17s , Mirages etc at other side . All these aircrafts are higly agile and true multirole fighters .
> 
> Having said that , the best team will win.



1. Agreed. However, as the aggressor (designated role of IAF in case of conflict) all these assets will have to cross over to Pakistan airspace where PAF fighters will be complemented by AWACS that will be flying outside the range of weapons plus additional ground based assets such as SAM systems and EW systems. PAF will not have to worry about those. RAFALE is not on the scene yet and it may be a while before it takes part in anything. *By the way, why does the Mig-29 appear in nightmares of US pilots when over a dozen mig-29's have been shot down by F-15's and atleast 3 by F-16's without a single loss?*

2. Yes, MKI is a weapons platform, a mini AWEACS and most importantly a massive red blip on even the most primitive radars. What the story comes to next is the actual weapons that the platform holds and has to counter. We all know the performance of Russian BVR's and the US BVR's. We also know the performance of Russian WVR Missiles and the American WVR missiles. We are also fully aware of the quality of jammers on Russian systems that are unable to jam outdated SAM systems!

3. Then keep is far away from the range of our stand off weapons as they have a much higher kill probability then any Russian weapon. Not only that, the mini AWAC thing would be homing beacon to HARM missiles! Let me also remind you that the role of IAF in any actual conflict with China would be defensive just as that of PAF against India!

4. I am seriously tired of the Rafale discussion especially when the PAF counter to it is absent!


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

See the problem with your calculations is that 

a) JF17 thunders will be carrying a lethal BVR that will lock onto the double decker bus with wings called sukhoi and the second thing is that we have no Upper Limit on Production of JF17 Thunders. 

b) You assume that the Missile carrying capabilities will not increase with Block 2 

c) Another Assumption you do make is that you assume , that the double decker Bus , Sukhoi fighters can match the agility of J10B

d) we already have chinese AWACs that work with JF17 and J10B 

Movies can't be wrong 





Here is Hypothetical Comparison 

36 Pakistani J10B + 200 JF17 Thunders vs 150 Sukhoi 
80 Pakistani F16 C/D vs 125 Rafale 
100 JF17 Thunder vs 60 Mirage 2000

F7 & Mirage 400 vs Mig 29

PS : Pakistan also has very Agile platform F7 , which in Military Excercises have given F15 run for Money I imagine 200 of these fighters will certainly give the Sukhoi some real pain in the *** to lock them down specially in dog fights


In the End .... does not matters how many Missiles Sukhoi carries , it can be brougt to ground with a Missile fired even from F7 or Mirage or even Shoulder held platfom but I love the circus tricks it does .. what that trick it down standing up on its tail like a puppy , yeah .. do that infront of Chinese Missiles it may be a problem


PS: Just because a Sukhoi has extra 1-2 Missiles does not means that it will hit its target 
every time because unlike the practice drones , all Pakistan Airforce planes have counter 
messure and Missile Evasive planning enabled

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## selvan33

Teeta said:


> You are wrong on bold parts.



whatever he said was right.but except the mig29 a nightmare for US.


----------



## Markus

Except four squadrons, all Su-30s will be available to fight Pakistan.

So, around 90 may be available to hit Pakistan from multiple sides.


----------



## selvan33

Teeta said:


> O.K....
> 
> In EVERY fight between Mig-29 and F-16, F-16 shot the mig down...I'm talking about real battles, not some "exercises"....
> 
> Secondly, U.S pilots don't have nightmares from anything. This isn't IAF we are talking about.....
> 
> Thirdly, *Su-30 doesn't have the range of 3000 km, but 300 may be...*Also, Mr Sukhoi Thirty isn't someone special. Every plane will be carrying jammers, ECM pod, precision strike munitions, rockets and what not. So lets come back to reality now. Su30 is just another 4th gen fighter...nothing big (no matter how badly indians want to believe)...
> 
> Lastly, su30 can carry just one cruise missile..and when it is carrying that..I dont think it would be 'fighting' at the same time....




non sense quote. who said to you su30mki range is 300km. its more than 3000km.


----------



## Markus

selvan33 said:


> non sense quote. who said to you su30mki range is 300km. its more than 3000km.



Yes, and that too without external fuel tanks.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> Now lets have a look at your assumptions:
> 
> 1 ot) All Mig-21's to be replaced by SU-30MKI whereas 7 squadrons (around 120) Mig-21's are supposed to be replaced by LCA. SU-30MKI strength is envisioned at 270-272 and no more.
> 2) PAF counters the acquisition of Rafale with JF-17 where as Rafale will most likely be countered by J-10B's. Since no order has been placed for Rafale, no order has been placed for J-10B's which also gives time to J-10B to mature and to fly with a Chinese engine.
> 3) Biggest assumption is that IAF will put up all the fighters against PAF and maintain nothing on other borders. While PAF will be focused entirely on IAF, IAF will have to maintain minimum deterrence strength onher borders.
> 
> Also, while MKI has almost reached developmental saturation point, JFT is only just starting and will continue to develop where as MKI will most likely take a while (if at all) to upgrade from the Super MKI model. Finally, I would like to request keep things realistic and to speak of current inventory and those that are either in production or under acquisition. *Rafale is yet to be ordered so I'd rather not talk about it or PAF's counter to it.*



If you want to restrict the discussion to current inventory, lets us just stick to it. Currently PAF has three squadrons of JF17, 4 of F16. Rest all the aircraft in PAF arsenal are old third gen aircrafts with no BVR capability. Even in fourth gen, only 18 F16s have BVR capability and S10 integration on JF17 is not confirmed and has been questioned by your own compatriots.

Currently IAF is equipped with 8 squadrons of Su-30 MKI, which is more than a match for 7 squadrons of Jf17 and F16 combined. How can you say that JF17 is just starting to develop, when JF17 Blk II is already out and it came with almost zero upgrades, only Blk III is left now. MLU's won't take place before 15 years. No one is saying that India will keep nothing in reserve for china, however we can mobilise all our Su30s to Pakistan border and leave the rest for china if need arises. People need to understand how much this aircraft brings to the table, a single Su30MKI can carry as much weapons as 4 Jf17s and cruise through whole of pakistan, and then come back, and land in India. Its no joke that it defeated F15 during CI-2004


----------



## Teeta

selvan33 said:


> non sense quote. who said to you su30mki range is 300km. its more than 3000km.



indian, he was talking in the context of "mini AWACS"...means he was talking about radar range.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

Teeta said:


> O.K....
> 
> In EVERY fight between Mig-29 and F-16, F-16 shot the mig down...I'm talking about real battles, not some "exercises"....
> 
> Secondly, U.S pilots don't have nightmares from anything. This isn't IAF we are talking about.....
> 
> Thirdly, Su-30 doesn't have the range of 3000 km, but 300 may be...Also, Mr Sukhoi Thirty isn't someone special. Every plane will be carrying jammers, ECM pod, precision strike munitions, rockets and what not. So lets come back to reality now. Su30 is just another 4th gen fighter...nothing big (no matter how badly indians want to believe)...
> 
> Lastly, su30 can carry just one cruise missile..and when it is carrying that..I dont think it would be 'fighting' at the same time....



1. Planes dont fight , pilots fight . All the instances you have mentioned are when inexperinced pilots from thirld world countries like IRAQ were gunned down by highly experinced US pilots . Those US pilots were using AWACS also which IRAQIs didnot have . Had it been erstwhile Soviet UNION and a fight between Mig-29s and F-16s , the story would have been much bloodier. Remember that in Korean wars , the soviet pilots (in Korean disguise) inflicted heavy damages to US aircrafts . Had the same airbattle been fought full-on with Soviets, the news would be full of many downed US pilots.

2. Su-30 does have a range of 3000 KMs after refuelling . 

3.Agree that every plane carries jammers , ECM pod and etc etc . But that limits their ability to fight . This is not the case with Su-30 . If it fights with the enemy with same configuration , it will outperform by using its high thrust to weight ratio. At any time su-30 would be carrying more weapons and that too in variety .

4. Well , i never said that it carries more than 1 cruise missile , but it doesnot limit its capability to fight .Though there would be some drag while turning but su-30 can deal with it given its powerhouse engine. However , Russians might explain it much better.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Teeta

Shadow_Hunter said:


> If you want to restrict the discussion to current inventory, lets us just stick to it. Currently PAF has three squadrons of JF17, 4 of F16. Rest all the aircraft in PAF arsenal are old third gen aircrafts with no BVR capability. Even in fourth gen, only 18 F16s have BVR capability and S10 integration on JF17 is not confirmed and has been questioned by your own compatriots.
> 
> Currently IAF is equipped with 8 squadrons of Su-30 MKI, which is more than a match for 7 squadrons of Jf17 and F16 combined. How can you say that JF17 is just starting to develop, when JF17 Blk II is already out and it came with almost zero upgrades, only Blk III is left now. MLU's won't take place before 15 years. No one is saying that India will keep nothing in reserve for china, however we can mobilise all our Su30s to Pakistan border and leave the rest for china if need arises. People need to understand how much this aircraft brings to the table, a single Su30MKI can carry as much weapons as 4 Jf17s and cruise through whole of pakistan, and then come back, and land in India. *Its no joke that it defeated F15 during CI-2004*




And got its a$$ kicked when we Americans said "Ok, jokes aside...lets play the real game now."

F-15s came out victorious in Red Flag. I think you haven't seen the U.S F-15 pilot's video regarding the issue?


----------



## kaykay

Teeta said:


> O.K....
> 
> In EVERY fight between Mig-29 and F-16, F-16 shot the mig down...I'm talking about real battles, not some "exercises"....
> 
> Secondly, U.S pilots don't have nightmares from anything. This isn't IAF we are talking about.....
> 
> Thirdly, Su-30 doesn't have the range of 3000 km, but 300 may be...Also, Mr Sukhoi Thirty isn't someone special. Every plane will be carrying jammers, ECM pod, precision strike munitions, rockets and what not. So lets come back to reality now. Su30 is just another 4th gen fighter...nothing big (no matter how badly indians want to believe)...
> 
> Lastly, su30 can carry just one cruise missile..and when it is carrying that..I dont think it would be 'fighting' at the same time....



42 super sukhois will be able to carry 3 brahmos cruise missiles where as other mkis will carry just one...and mki's range is more than 3000km without any external fuel tanks..go learn before posting nonsense!


----------



## Markus

Teeta said:


> [/B]
> 
> And got its a$$ kicked when we Americans said "Ok, jokes aside...lets play the real game now."
> 
> F-15s came out victorious in Red Flag. I think you haven't seen the U.S F-15 pilot's video regarding the issue?



It has been discussed a million times that Su-30 radars were operating in training mode to prevent US from capturing signature.


----------



## selvan33

Teeta said:


> indian, he was talking in the context of "mini AWACS"...means he was talking about radar range.



no he is not talking about radar. he said about aircrafts range. and also su30mki bars radar detection range is 400+km and its tracking range is 200+km.


----------



## Teeta

Babbar-Khalsa said:


> 1. Planes dont fight , pilots fight . All the instances you have mentioned are when inexperinced pilots from thirld world countries like IRAQ were gunned down by highly experinced US pilots . Those US pilots were using AWACS also which IRAQIs didnot have . Had it been erstwhile Soviet UNION and a fight between Mig-29s and F-16s , the story would have been much bloodier. Remember that in Korean wars , the soviet pilots (in Korean disguise) inflicted heavy damages to US aircrafts . Had the same airbattle been fought full-on with Soviets, the news would be full of many downed US pilots.
> 
> *2. Su-30 does have a range of 3000 KMs after refuelling . *
> 
> 3.Agree that every plane carries jammers , ECM pod and etc etc . But that limits their ability to fight . This is not the case with Su-30 . If it fights with the enemy with same configuration , it will outperform by using its high thrust to weight ratio. At any time su-30 would be carrying more weapons and that too in variety .
> 
> 4. Well , i never said that it carries more than 1 cruise missile , but it doesnot limit its capability to fight .Though there would be some drag while turning but su-30 can deal with it given its powerhouse engine. However , Russians might explain it much better.



Oh I thought you were talking about radar range, since you mentioned Su-30 as being a "mini AWACS" before you wrote the range....

Also, Soviet pilots weren't that good either. Their tactics were very rigid. Soviets didn't perform well when faced with highly-trained fighter pilots such as Pakistanis and Israelis.

BTW, Iraqis were trained by Soviets themselves...lol...



kaykay said:


> 42 super sukhois will be able to carry 3 brahmos cruise missiles where as other mkis will carry just one...and mki's range is more than 3000km without any external fuel tanks..*go learn before posting nonsense!*



That was a misunderstanding...

Go learn manners you thirdworlder from a sh!thole pathetic nation.


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

Teeta said:


> indian, he was talking in the context of "mini AWACS"...means he was talking about radar range.



American , you got me wrong . I was talking about range of flight . When we talk about range , common sense tells us that it should be range of flight and not range of Radar ( unless stated )


----------



## Teeta

Markus said:


> It has been discussed a million times that Su-30 radars were operating in training mode to prevent US from capturing signature.



American F-15s defeated Su-30s in dog fighting mode...Many kills with gun! I don't think this "radar" excuse will quite work here....lol



Babbar-Khalsa said:


> American , you got me wrong . I was talking about range of flight . When we talk about range , common sense tells us that it should be range of flight and not range of Radar ( unless stated )



Offcourse, but when some indian gloat about russian-bought su-30..and call it "mini awacs" right before stating "Oh its range is 3000km" , then chances of misunderstanding increase manifold.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Teeta said:


> [/B]
> 
> And got its a$$ kicked when we Americans said "Ok, jokes aside...lets play the real game now."
> 
> F-15s came out victorious in Red Flag. I think you haven't seen the U.S F-15 pilot's video regarding the issue?



Sukhoi 30MKI did not take part in red flag, it was Su30Mk, you are an idiot.

Secondly, I think you haven't read the news where USAF apologized to IAF for the pilot's comments and the video was removed the internet as well.


----------



## kaykay

Teeta said:


> Oh I thought you were talking about radar range, since you mentioned Su-30 as being a "mini AWACS" before you wrote the range....
> 
> Also, Soviet pilots weren't that good either. Their tactics were very rigid. Soviets didn't perform well when faced with highly-trained fighter pilots such as Pakistanis and Israelis.
> 
> BTW, Iraqis were trained by Soviets themselves...lol...
> 
> 
> 
> That was a misunderstanding...
> 
> Go learn manners you thirdworlder from a sh!thole pathetic nation.


..................


----------



## Markus

Teeta said:


> American F-15s defeated Su-30s in dog fighting mode...Many kills with gun! I don't think this "radar" excuse will quite work here....lol



Thats completely OK.

US has better trained pilots than India.

You cannot comment on SU-30 capability based on Red Flag exercises. In the real world, AFs rely heavily on BVR, dog-fighting may not even be required.


----------



## GURU DUTT

well pakistani members are going gaga over the so called AWACS backed JF17s but are theynot forgetting whats on indian side well to start with owr lets assume 3 greenpines and two aerostats cover whole pakistani air space coupled withy worlds most advanced (wich big daddy china wanted but count get) THE PHALCON(which will cover all pakistani airspace and a bit more while flying almost 60 km inside India ) NOW SAY 190 su30 & 45m2k +45mig 29 ugrd +say 90 odd bisons as point defence to give back up (not talkin about Rafales)against pakistan will Field say 150 JF17 + 80 blok 52 F16 + 3 awacs and a hand ful of F7 well think twice asIAF will not be fielding onli russian BVRs onli we have some french and israeli hardware also 

Point is pakistan cannot counter IAF but as they say dushman ko kabhi kamzor nahi samjhna chahiye and it applies to both sides enjoy


----------



## Teeta

Shadow_Hunter said:


> *Sukhoi 30MKI did not take part in red flag, you are an idiot.
> *
> Secondly, I think you haven't read the news where USAF apologized to IAF for the pilot's comments and the video was removed the internet as well.





ok, probably indian looking aliens came to red flags then? 



kaykay said:


> lolz you are a pathetic a$$ h*le!!! And always will be.



Yes, we are. Please tell your curry-smelling indians to leave America. We don't want their curry, their smell , and their funny accent.


----------



## RPK




----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Teeta said:


> ok, probably indian looking aliens came to red flags then?



It was Su30MK, you idiot, seriously? Is USA full of people like you who can't read?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Teeta

Markus said:


> Thats completely OK.
> 
> US has better trained pilots than India.
> 
> You cannot comment on SU-30 capability based on Red Flag exercises. In the real world, AFs rely heavily on BVR, dog-fighting may not even be required.



Call it my American bias, but I would rate advance F-15s higher than Su-30s....



Shadow_Hunter said:


> It was *Su30MK,* you idiot, seriously? Is USA full of people like you who can't read?



lol what?


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Teeta said:


> Call it my American bias, but I would rate advance F-15s higher than Su-30s....
> 
> 
> 
> lol what?



Yeah Sukhoi 30 MK, you never heard of that, cos you are an illiterate troll with a low self esteem, spend some time reading, and maybe you will be able to learn enough to graduate idiot.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

Teeta said:


> Oh I thought you were talking about radar range, since you mentioned Su-30 as being a "mini AWACS" before you wrote the range....
> 
> Also, Soviet pilots weren't that good either. Their tactics were very rigid. Soviets didn't perform well when faced with highly-trained fighter pilots such as Pakistanis and Israelis.
> 
> BTW, Iraqis were trained by Soviets themselves...lol...
> 
> 
> 
> That was a misunderstanding...
> 
> Go learn manners you thirdworlder from a sh!thole pathetic nation.



If you say Soviet pilots were not good , you are biased . Give them some respect , for they have achieved milestone in air and space technologies when you and me were not even born.

Secondly , as i already said , US had much smarter weapons . US created its hardware keeping Soviets in sight ( not IRAQIs) . So , IRAQIs were already outgunned and outperformed. If the dogfight had been between US pilot in f-16 and Soviet pilot in Mig-29 , things would have been much different.

Thirdly , can you explain me which battle the Soviets were face to face with Pakistani or Isralie pilots ? Now dont tell me about 6-day war (Arab -israel) and Afghanistan (1979-1989).


----------



## Gandalf

Swirl of Controversy: Cope India and Red Flag 2008 Exercises

Starting in 2004 the joint Cope India exercise began over South Asia (after an absence of nearly 40 years) pitting F-15C of the USAF against a mix of older and newer Indian Air Force (IAF): Mirage 2000, MiG-21, MiG-27, SU-30Mk (not MKi) and Jaguar aircraft.


However this is where everyones expectations ceased?


By every available account: the IAF soundly defeated American F-15Cs over and over and over.



[Above] Note drop-tanks fitted to USAF F-15C and IAF Mirage 2000s.


American officials credited Indian pilots with being:


"very proficient in [their] aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,"


"The adversaries are better than we thought," Col. Mike Snodgrass added.&#8221; And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated."


"The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MiG-27 and MiG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia."



When questioned on the capabilities of IAF pilots, Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader made the following remarks: 


&#8220;What we&#8217;ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world.&#8221;


&#8220;I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won&#8217;t be going home.&#8221;


&#8220;The greatest compliment we heard from an IAF pilot &#8211; You American pilots are just like us, simply down to earth people.&#8221;



When word of the Cope India 2004 results reached Washington DC, it caused an uproar. Some western military observers quickly attempted to dismiss or reframe the results, claiming that USAF did not bring its true &#8216;go-to-war-gear&#8217; to these exercises.


True, American USAF F-15C&#8217;s typically were outnumbered 3-to-1. However most of these explanations have dubious merit:


1.) AIM-120 AMRAAM missile and AESA radars would have made little difference in BVR - as new jamming technologies (like DFRM) degrade or negate most of these (radio EM-spectrum) AIM-120 class capabilities - regardless. In one sense: active-homing (fire-and-forget) BVR class weapons have become increasingly &#8216;easier&#8217; to elude - using DRFM-class deception techniques. Indeed this might be what effectively occurs during 'Red Flag' 2008, (so keep reading.)


2.) It is unclear which R-27 missile round was employed by the IAF in 2004: IR-homing (R-27T), semi-active radar homing (R-27R) or active radar homing (R-27AE). Had the latest fire-and-forget class been allowed, the IAF would have simply used their R-77 similar to the American AIM-120 round. R-77 also has an IR-homing version - so again - another &#8220;wash?&#8221;


3.) Russian Flanker was designed to counter and defeat F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18. Its no surprise experienced Indian aircrews might prevail.


4.) Indians only used the Su-30 "MK" not their Su-30 "MKi." Reportedly IAF Flankers simply used their larger radar and longer range weapons to fire on the F-15C before USAF fighters could fire back.


5.) Lastly the American military always fight its wars over hostile airspace: so USAF-to-IAF numbers/odds/environment is 150% applicable?





Best link author could locate on Cope India:
WHAT


Subsequent Cope India exercises in 2005, 2006 had little to no information coming out. Judging from the hubris displayed by the USAF in 2008 &#8211; the silence from the USAF during the 2005 and 2006 Gwalior exercises &#8211; was apparently - deafening...






- Now - jump to the 2008 Nellis AFB &#8216;Red Flag&#8217; exercises hosted by the USAF -


This time the Indian Air Force bring their new Su-30 MKi.



64th and 65th Aggressor squadrons at Nellis AFB, Nev.


Colonel Terrence Fornof, Director of the Requirements and Testing office (USAF Warfare Center, Nellis AFB), was providing a briefing to a number of retired US generals, [video has in the past appeared, been removed, and reappeared on the Internet]:









Listen to a pod-cast audio regarding the same presentation (even MORE interesting) * note: pod-cast w/Fight editor appears to have been pulled. The thrust of this interview was that Nellis instructors in the F-15 were able to catch the F-22 in a turn:
PodOmatic | Best Free Podcasts


According to the Colonels own hand positions then a properly flown Su-30 can (also) catch an F-22 in a turn. So what - actually - is the USAF trying to say? 


The US Colonels remarks caused an international flap in India. 


Did some in the USAF have something to prove?


Indian Su-30MKi landing at Nellis AFB, Nev. in 2008


Problem is Colonel Fornof comments produced more questions than answers:


a.) Indian MiG-21IBis (I-Bis) "Bison" are equipped with Russian-made Kopyo radars, not Israeli &#8220;F-16&#8221; radars.


b.) That Su-30MKIs "lost in 1-v-1" DACT at Mountain Home AFB, there was apparently no such training done at Mountain.


c.) FOD concerns are not unusual for any air force operating halfway around the world. The Flanker has simply immense loiter and combat persistence ability &#8211; so take-off (fighter scramble) intervals are not (as) critical for Flanker - as for shorter range aircraft.


d.) MKi use Lyulka AL-31 turbofans, not Tumansky as was stated.



Indian Air Force MiG-21IBis (I-Bis). The paradigm(s) after 1982 Bekaa Valley and 1991 Gulf War - appear to have been misguided?



Indian MiG-21-IBis with R-77 "Adder" missile round. The R-77 is the equivalent to the American AIM-120.


So what conclusions, if any, can be drawn?
The paradigms established/embraced after Bekaa Valley &#8216;Turkey Shoot&#8217; in 1982 and the results of the 1991 Gulf War appear to have been misguided by 2004 - due to Indian MiG-21IBis (I-Bis).
There is no substitute for flight hours and training. Proper training allows aircrews (of any air force) to extract the maximum performance out of their aircraft.
A similar post-stall counter-tactic was used by Nellis (F-15) instructors against less-experienced aircrews in both F-22 and Su-30. So by definition: a properly flown Su-30 can (also) catch an F-22 in a turn?
Remarking on F-22 needing &#8216;more missiles&#8217; - is consistent with F-22 having only two IR missiles, historical air-to-air missiles hit probabilities and Raptors lack of helmet sighting. Su-30 brings helmet-sighting, nearly twice the number of missile rounds and a huge fuel reserves - at much (much) lower costs - to the fight.
His remarks on the inability of USAF instructor aircraft to employ their AIM-120 AMRAAM round - is interesting. Whether it was jamming, snooping, heads-up defensive flying, or other tactical issues, his comments are (duly) noted.
Remarks on the Indian MiG-21 are revealing. During the Bekaa Valley (Lebanon) air battles of June 1982, Israeli F-15 and F-16 radars had no trouble seeing (and downing scores of) Mig-21s. So DRFM-class jammers even on a MiG-21 - may have pushed BVR off the table - for any radio-spectrum AIM-120 equipped fighter - even Raptor?
Colonel Fornof was referring to this video (F-22 and Su-30 side-by-side):



Looking at the video, an astute observer noting airspeed, afterburner usage, altitude-loss, energy-recovery and aircraft attitude during/between maneuvers: can see that both F-22 and Flanker evenly matched regardless of Colonel Fornof statements or hand position(s). 


Below is the complete Flanker demo. Watch the superb energy recovery [at payback 2:10] followed by a simply impossible maneuver of Su-30 at playback 2:13:





The Raptor does perform some of the maneuvers at lower speeds, however keep in mind the Flanker is much larger than Raptor, and F-22 lacks the pilot helmet-sighting of the Sukhoi.


New video [below] showing that - in fact the F-22 Raptor is in big trouble.



Indian News Report of2008 Red Flag:





The Sukhoi is going to be with us for quite awhile, and by any measure, is (and will be) a nightmare for USAF/USN brass, planners and aircrews alike. Flanker has loiter and combat persistence ability - that has no western equivalent.


Train how you fight and fight how you train, train and train.


The question may be who fights over friendly airspace and who fights of hostile airspace?



We count no less than 12 hard points on this MKi: four on each wing, one on each engine nacelle, and two on the aircrafts centerline. Even without external drop tanks, Flanker endurance and combat radius remains unequaled in the world. 


Multi-sensor Advanced-Flanker with pilots of equal skill - should be more (more) than a match for F-22.


When or if the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor participates in a future Cope India exercise at Gwalior India, whatever the results, they are certain to be quite the revelation - even if we never officially hear about them. 


Conversely, we firmly conclude that procuring additional F-22s for the USAF will not resolve anything of this. One can purchase between three (3) and seven (7) Advanced Flanker for the cost of a single (1) F-22. To put it another way: if four (4) F-22 Raptors fly against twelve (12) to twenty-eight (28) Advanced Flankers - none (none) of the F-22s can survive this engagement. F-22 is simply far (far) too expensive for a real world.


India has placed a fresh order for forty (40) more Sukhois with Russia.


Your thoughts?


----------



## Teeta

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Yeah Sukhoi 30 MK, you never heard of that, cos you are an illiterate troll with a low self esteem, spend some time reading, and maybe you will be able to learn enough to graduate idiot.



I honestly don't give a sh!t about russian hardware in any third-world sh!thole's citizens hands. So call me idiot, or whatever your mom told you to call Americans.

Anyways, your poor pilots got their a$$es kicked and this must be enough for you to get a hint about "self-esteem" of Americans via-via-vis indians...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Markus

Teeta said:


> Call it my American bias, but I would rate advance F-15s higher than Su-30s....



That's fine. 

You can have your own bias.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

They Americans run these "Joint Excercises to gain knowledge of limitations of Russian planes" 
and intentionally underperform


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> They Americans run these "Joint Excercises to gain knowledge of limitations of Russian planes"
> and intentionally underperform



And this gentlemen is what I call inability to handle the truth.


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> See the problem with your calculations is that
> 
> a) JF17 thunders will be carrying a lethal BVR that will lock onto the double decker bus with wings called sukhoi and the second thing is that we have no Upper Limit on Production of JF17 Thunders.
> 
> b) You assume that the Missile carrying capabilities will not increase with Block 2
> 
> c) Another Assumption you do make is that you assume , that the double decker Bus , Sukhoi fighters can match the agility of J10B
> 
> d) we already have chinese AWACs that work with JF17 and J10B
> 
> Movies can't be wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Hypothetical Comparison
> 
> 36 Pakistani J10B + 200 JF17 Thunders vs 150 Sukhoi
> 80 Pakistani F16 C/D vs 125 Rafale
> 100 JF17 Thunder vs 60 Mirage 2000
> 
> F7 & Mirage 400 vs Mig 29
> 
> PS : Pakistan also has very Agile platform F7 , which in Military Excercises have given F15 run for Money I imagine 200 of these fighters will certainly give the Sukhoi some real pain in the *** to lock them down specially in dog fights
> 
> 
> In the End .... does not matters how many Missiles Sukhoi carries , it can be brougt to ground with a Missile fired even from F7 or Mirage or even Shoulder held platfom but I love the circus tricks it does .. what that trick it down standing up on its tail like a puppy , yeah .. do that infront of Chinese Missiles it may be a problem
> 
> 
> PS: Just because a Sukhoi has extra 1-2 Missiles does not means that it will hit its target
> every time because unlike the practice drones , all Pakistan Airforce planes have counter
> messure and Missile Evasive planning enabled



1. You will never remain just defenders . Once there has been a strike from IAF , PAF will retaliate. PAF will face the same ground attack and Anti-aircraft missiles like IAF .

2. Both PAF and IAF have BVR capabilities so leave it to actual battle.

3. If you see the history , its filled with Russian technological achievements . Right from Sputnik to MIR (first international space station) to Missiles . Presently , the ISS( international space station ) and US is dependent on Russian rockets to reach outerspace and load/unload the cargo and people there .

4. Americans retired their SHUTTLES and started using Russian rockets for a reason.

5 . Russian technologies are used by China , Iran , North Korea and many other nations . Would like to mention that US never wants a direct war with any of these .

6. Russian Anti-aircraft SAMs are battle tested and scored many hits on US aircraft (if they are in able hands).

Well , as a spectator , you have also enjoyed Cobra manuavare of Su-30 MKI , but you cant accept it here because of your national sentiments ( quite understood).



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> They Americans run these "Joint Excercises to gain knowledge of limitations of Russian planes"
> and intentionally underperform



well....might be a case ......but do you think that others would show all their cards to americans ?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

Teeta said:


> I honestly don't give a sh!t about russian hardware in any third-world sh!thole's citizens hands. So call me idiot, or whatever your mom told you to call Americans.
> 
> Anyways, your poor pilots got their a$$es kicked and this must be enough for you to get a hint about "self-esteem" of Americans via-via-vis indians...



Your recent posts doesnot presents a gentlemen personality . Initially you were giving some readable inputs , but down the line their quality have deteriorated.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## notorious_eagle

Babbar-Khalsa said:


> Well :-
> 
> 1. Adding additional hardwares never means lack of confidence.



Sure. Its a cat and mouse game, one side acquires a piece of hardware and the other acquires a deterrent to counter it. 



Babbar-Khalsa said:


> 2. Strike packages would be sent depending on resources in hand . Not to mention that IAF would be fully aware of the readiness of PAF and what to expect .



Both sides would be fully aware of each others intentions considering how extensive the radar network is for both the foes. IAF shot itself in the foot the day it went to order the Phalcon AWACS, it robbed a massive advantage the IAF had over the PAF. 



Babbar-Khalsa said:


> 3. Numerical superiority is not a match -winner but it does affects the psyche.



Looking at the numbers and the constraints, it does not appear that numerical superiority exist. IAF has to cover her flanks, and than perform 3 roles to implement her strategy. That itself robs her off her numerical superiority. PAF needs 350 4th Generation Aircrafts to effectively tame an IAF onslaught. It appears that they are heading exactly over there. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> It was Su30MK, you idiot, seriously? Is USA full of people like you who can't read?



Why are you lying friend? A simple Google search will reveal your duplicity. 

_"The IAF would be participating in the exercise with eight SU-30 MK-I aircraft, two IL-78 air to air refuellers and one IL-76 transport aircraft. The contingent would comprise 156 personnel below officers rank and 91 officers (inclusive of 10 members of Garud IAF Special Force team). The contingent is being led by Gp Capt D Chaudhury and Exercise Coordinator would be Gp Capt Ajay Rathore."_

Press Information Bureau English Releases

If not this, a picture is worth a thousand words. These are SU30MKI's. 

File:SU-30 MKI Idaho.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Babbar-Khalsa said:


> Your recent posts doesnot presents a gentlemen personality . Initially you were giving some readable inputs , but down the line their quality have deteriorated.



It is because your fellow Indian brethren stuck to their rigid attitude and failed to listen to reason and argument. They started attacking @Teeta personally instead of his/her arguments, this is why it evoked a furious response from Teeta. So instead of pointing fingers, have a look at the posts of your fellow Indian brethren. They are still under the spell that SU30MKI is God's Gift to Aviation and the greatest fighter aircraft ever built. A dose of reality hurts their ego and that is when the start posting jingoistic remarks and personally attacking other posters.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GURU DUTT

notorious_eagle said:


> Sure. Its a cat and mouse game, one side acquires a piece of hardware and the other acquires a deterrent to counter it.
> 
> 
> 
> Both sides would be fully aware of each others intentions considering how extensive the radar network is for both the foes. *IAF shot itself in the foot the day it went to order the Phalcon AWACS, it robbed a massive advantage the IAF had over the PAF. *
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the numbers and the constraints, it does not appear that numerical superiority exist. IAF has to cover her flanks, and than perform 3 roles to implement her strategy. That itself robs her off her numerical superiority. PAF needs 350 4th Generation Aircrafts to effectively tame an IAF onslaught. It appears that they are heading exactly over there.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you lying friend? A simple Google search will reveal your duplicity.
> 
> _"The IAF would be participating in the exercise with eight SU-30 MK-I aircraft, two IL-78 air to air refuellers and one IL-76 transport aircraft. The contingent would comprise 156 personnel below officers rank and 91 officers (inclusive of 10 members of &#8216;Garud&#8217; IAF Special Force team). The contingent is being led by Gp Capt D Chaudhury and Exercise Coordinator would be Gp Capt Ajay Rathore."_
> 
> Press Information Bureau English Releases
> 
> If not this, a picture is worth a thousand words. These are SU30MKI's.
> 
> File:SU-30 MKI Idaho.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> It is because your fellow Indian brethren stuck to their rigid attitude and failed to listen to reason and argument. They started attacking @Teeta personally instead of his/her arguments, this is why it evoked a furious response from Teeta. So instead of pointing fingers, have a look at the posts of your fellow Indian brethren. They are still under the spell that SU30MKI is God's Gift to Aviation and the greatest fighter aircraft ever built. A dose of reality hurts their ego and that is when the start posting jingoistic remarks and personally attacking other posters.



care to explain how exactli well if its not angoor khatte hain


----------



## notorious_eagle

GURU DUTT said:


> care to explain how exactli well if its not angoor khatte hain



The BARS Radar of SU30MKI was itself the most potent weapon in the arsenal of the IAF. It allowed the IAF to look deep into Pakistan's airspace without PAF even knowing. F16's only had capable radars in the form of APG-66 but they were quite primitive compared to the PESA radar of SU30MKI. PAF did have ground based radars but they are static and more vulnerable to SEAD strikes compared to a manoeuvrable aerial platform like an AWAC.

PAF since the 1980's had been trying to acquire an AWAC from the West but the request was constantly turned down in fear that it will affect the equilibrium. After the IAF signed the deal to acquire the Phalcons, PAF was able to make her case infront of the West and purchase Erieye from Swedan with American acquiescence. The introduction of AWACs changes the balance of power in favour of PAF because it allows the PAF to see every Indian asset in the air either flying high or low from stand off ranges. PAF does not has to upgrade each and every one of her fighters with an AESA or PESA radar. All she needs to do is data link them through the AWACS which gives these fighters a comprehensive view of the battlefield. 

It is because of this, the biggest advantage of the SU30MKI has been robbed off it. Now the JF17 or even an F7PG can see the SU30MKI at the same time the SU30MKI will detect the opposing aircraft. In the past, the SU30MKI could paint the opposing aircraft and fire a salvo of BVR missiles even before the opposing side would be aware of SU30MKI's presence. Now, its going to be an even level playing field. So please tell me, angoor kaisay khatain hain


----------



## kaykay

GURU DUTT said:


> care to explain how exactli well if its not angoor khatte hain



IMO he was trying to say that because of India's decision to go with phalcon awacs they went/forced to buy their awacs from swedan to nutralize the effect!! Period!


----------



## GURU DUTT

notorious_eagle said:


> The BARS Radar of SU30MKI was itself the most potent weapon in the arsenal of the IAF. It allowed the IAF to look deep into Pakistan's airspace without PAF even knowing. F16's only had capable radars in the form of APG-66 but they were quite primitive compared to the PESA radar of SU30MKI. PAF did have ground based radars but they are static and more vulnerable to SEAD strikes compared to a manoeuvrable aerial platform like an AWAC.
> 
> PAF since the 1980's had been trying to acquire an AWAC from the West but the request was constantly turned down in fear that it will affect the equilibrium. After the IAF signed the deal to acquire the Phalcons, PAF was able to make her case infront of the West and purchase Erieye from Swedan with American acquiescence. The introduction of AWACs changes the balance of power in favour of PAF because it allows the PAF to see every Indian asset in the air either flying high or low from stand off ranges. PAF does not has to upgrade each and every one of her fighters with an AESA or PESA radar. All she needs to do is data link them through the AWACS which gives these fighters a comprehensive view of the battlefield.
> 
> It is because of this, *the biggest advantage of the SU30MKI has been robbed off it. Now the JF17 or even an F7PG can see the SU30MKI at the same time the SU30MKI will detect the opposing aircraft. In the past, the SU30MKI could paint the opposing aircraft and fire a salvo of BVR missiles even before the opposing side would be aware of SU30MKI's presence. Now, its going to be an even level playing field. So please tell me, angoor kaisay khatain hain *



sorri to brust your bubble its not that easy sir ...do you know why ? well to start with Phalcon can jam almost entire so called air born radars or say can make them malfunction now dont ask me how as im not very technical person u could take darkies advice on that or some other + SU30 MKI will not come like as happned in 65 or 71 now ab hum inspector jara dooje kism ke hain 

baki aap chahen to nazar andaz ker den per bhai ji maybe youve heared of a thing called constant upgradetion 



kaykay said:


> IMO he was trying to say that because of India's decision to go with phalcon awacs they went/forced to buy their awacs from swedan to nutralize the effect!! Period!


lolzzz what a joke fir to agar defence planners aise sochte to aaj hum shayad teer aur talwaron se lar rahe hote koi behter hathyaar leta hi nahi ye soch ke ki mera dushman uske liye usske jaisa le lega aur fir larai me mujhe nuksan hoga 
per sirji usse kya faraq parta hai we still have more and better platforms agaionst there awacs and wepon platforms as they call it + to add the massive amount of power behind the Ewarfare techs avilable with IAF over PAF courtsey Israeli's and french

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

notorious_eagle said:


> The BARS Radar of SU30MKI was itself the most potent weapon in the arsenal of the IAF. It allowed the IAF to look deep into Pakistan's airspace without PAF even knowing. F16's only had capable radars in the form of APG-66 but they were quite primitive compared to the PESA radar of SU30MKI. PAF did have ground based radars but they are static and more vulnerable to SEAD strikes compared to a manoeuvrable aerial platform like an AWAC.
> 
> PAF since the 1980's had been trying to acquire an AWAC from the West but the request was constantly turned down in fear that it will affect the equilibrium. After the IAF signed the deal to acquire the Phalcons, PAF was able to make her case infront of the West and purchase Erieye from Swedan with American acquiescence. The introduction of AWACs changes the balance of power in favour of PAF because it allows the PAF to see every Indian asset in the air either flying high or low from stand off ranges. PAF does not has to upgrade each and every one of her fighters with an AESA or PESA radar. All she needs to do is data link them through the AWACS which gives these fighters a comprehensive view of the battlefield.
> 
> It is because of this, the biggest advantage of the SU30MKI has been robbed off it. Now the JF17 or even an F7PG can see the SU30MKI at the same time the SU30MKI will detect the opposing aircraft. In the past, the SU30MKI could paint the opposing aircraft and fire a salvo of BVR missiles even before the opposing side would be aware of SU30MKI's presence. Now, its going to be an even level playing field. So please tell me, angoor kaisay khatain hain


No force can hold it's addition of force multiplier just because of the fear that the opposition also might 
acquire it, in our case we had to think about not only Pakistan but China also.and this awac of your's will be extremely vulnerable due it's lack of strategic depth, iaf awac could operate deep inside Indian territory and still maintain battle space management due to it's bigger radar range..in offensive role where awac coverage would be limited or non existent iaf mki radar advantage is still useful.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## notorious_eagle

GURU DUTT said:


> sorri to brust your bubble its not that easy sir ...do you know why ? *well to start with Phalcon can jam almost entire so called air born radars* or say can make them malfunction *now dont ask me how as im not very technical person* u could take darkies advice on that or some other + SU30 MKI will not come like as happned in 65 or 71 now ab hum inspector jara dooje kism ke hain
> 
> baki aap chahen to nazar andaz ker den per bhai ji maybe youve heared of a thing called constant upgradetion



I have just highlighted the parts of what you just wrote, i honestly cannot stop laughing after reading this. The Phalcon can jam an AESA AWAC radar , sure buddy best of luck with that. You make an audacious claim but than you say that you cannot back it up, you do realize this makes you sound extremely dumb and stupid. If you make a claim, you need to back it up. If you cannot, 'Silence is Golden'.



Agnostic_Indian said:


> No force can hold it's addition of force multiplier just because of the fear that the opposition also might
> acquire it, in our case we had to think about not only Pakistan but China also.and this awac of your's will be extremely vulnerable due it's lack of strategic depth, iaf awac could operate deep inside Indian territory and still maintain battle space management due to it's bigger radar range..in offensive role where awac coverage would be limited or non existent iaf mki radar advantage is still useful.



You do make an excellent point here. You are bang on spot in stating that IAF had to take PLAF into consideration. There is no doubt that for the IAF to fight a behemoth like the PLAF, she definitely needs AWAC especially one as capable as PLAF. But i was talking in terms of Indo-Pak scenario so hope that you got the gist of my argument. 

PAF has calculated these threats and there is enough real estate for PAF to safely operate these planes. They don't need to fly West-East, they can fly North-South. Also, keep in mind that downing an AWAC is no joke as it is incorporated with a comprehensive self protection package.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mujraparty

notorious_eagle said:


> The BARS Radar of SU30MKI was itself the most potent weapon in the arsenal of the IAF. It allowed the IAF to look deep into Pakistan's airspace without PAF even knowing. F16's only had capable radars in the form of APG-66 but they were quite primitive compared to the PESA radar of SU30MKI. PAF did have ground based radars but they are static and more vulnerable to SEAD strikes compared to a manoeuvrable aerial platform like an AWAC.
> 
> PAF since the 1980's had been trying to acquire an AWAC from the West but the request was constantly turned down in fear that it will affect the equilibrium. After the IAF signed the deal to acquire the Phalcons, PAF was able to make her case infront of the West and purchase Erieye from Swedan with American acquiescence. The introduction of AWACs changes the balance of power in favour of PAF because it allows the PAF to see every Indian asset in the air either flying high or low from stand off ranges. PAF does not has to upgrade each and every one of her fighters with an AESA or PESA radar. All she needs to do is data link them through the AWACS which gives these fighters a comprehensive view of the battlefield.
> 
> It is because of this, the biggest advantage of the SU30MKI has been robbed off it. Now the JF17 or even an F7PG can see the SU30MKI at the same time the SU30MKI will detect the opposing aircraft. In the past, the SU30MKI could paint the opposing aircraft and fire a salvo of BVR missiles even before the opposing side would be aware of SU30MKI's presence. Now, its going to be an even level playing field. So please tell me, angoor kaisay khatain hain



but then you have to bring china into the scene , Phalcon's gave IAF similar capability against china , and it was only time when PAF had access to Chinese AWACS .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## GURU DUTT

notorious_eagle said:


> I have just highlighted the parts of what you just wrote, i honestly cannot stop laughing after reading this. The Phalcon can jam an AESA AWAC radar , sure buddy best of luck with that. You make an audacious claim but than you say that you cannot back it up, you do realize this makes you sound extremely dumb and stupid. If you make a claim, you need to back it up. If you cannot, 'Silence is Golden'.


 sirji kya karen hum hai hi aise  

allbatta Phalcon realli can do a lot of damage to your airborn radars well if not compleatli partialli it can and in a theater like owrs where we will be havving massive force in shape of SU30+ M2K+MIG29(with there net centrik capability & electronik warfare & jamming power ) i bet on it that they will be more than hand full for PAF but well jaisa aapko theek lage


----------



## GURU DUTT

notorious_eagle said:


> I have just highlighted the parts of what you just wrote, i honestly cannot stop laughing after reading this. The Phalcon can jam an AESA AWAC radar , sure buddy best of luck with that. You make an audacious claim but than you say that you cannot back it up, you do realize this makes you sound extremely dumb and stupid. If you make a claim, you need to back it up. If you cannot, 'Silence is Golden'.
> 
> 
> 
> You do make an excellent point here. *You are bang on spot in stating that IAF had to take PLAF into consideration. There is no doubt that for the IAF to fight a behemoth like the PLAF, she definitely needs AWAC especially one as capable as PLAF. But i was talking in terms of Indo-Pak scenario so hope that you got the gist of my argument*.
> 
> PAF has calculated these threats and there is enough real estate for PAF to safely operate these planes. They don't need to fly West-East, they can fly North-South. Also, keep in mind that downing an AWAC is no joke as it is incorporated with a comprehensive self protection package.






Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-76.html#ixzz2Gi2hA6Xc


well as i said before we have kept sepparate provisions for eastern sector


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> If you want to restrict the discussion to current inventory, lets us just stick to it. Currently PAF has three squadrons of JF17, 4 of F16. Rest all the aircraft in PAF arsenal are old third gen aircrafts with no BVR capability. Even in fourth gen, only 18 F16s have BVR capability and S10 integration on JF17 is not confirmed and has been questioned by your own compatriots.



I am not sure how many squadrons of JFT we currently have, technically it should be over 5 as China offered 50 JFT's on urgent basis last year. Most of the F-16's have received MLU in Turkey, the procurement and upgrade process was initiated back in 2005/06. Even our Mirages and F-7xx's can fire BVR missiles (mirages after the ROSE upgrades).





Shadow_Hunter said:


> Currently IAF is equipped with 8 squadrons of Su-30 MKI, which is more than a match for 7 squadrons of Jf17 and F16 combined. How can you say that JF17 is just starting to develop, when JF17 Blk II is already out and it came with almost zero upgrades, only Blk III is left now. MLU's won't take place before 15 years. No one is saying that India will keep nothing in reserve for china, however we can mobilise all our Su30s to Pakistan border and leave the rest for china if need arises. People need to understand how much this aircraft brings to the table, a single Su30MKI can carry as much weapons as 4 Jf17s and cruise through whole of pakistan, and then come back, and land in India. Its no joke that it defeated F15 during CI-2004



MKI may be a match for JFT & F-16's 1:1 and without support on neutral ground but when you throw things such as AWACS/SAM Systems/Ground based EW systems then things change drastically.

Where did you read that JFT Bl-II has been released to production? And if there are ZERO upgrades then how can it be a BL-II?? MLU's have almost been completed. And finally, an MKI has to carry 2-3 times the weapons load of a JFT/F-16 because of reliability of the weapons it carries and the problems with the radar guiding these weapons. The reliability of IAF BVR's is seriously discredited and in reality they have a kill probability under 20% where as the BVR's carried by PAF have a kill probability over 80%. In essence, MKI has to fire 4 BVR missiles to match the kill probability of a single launch from JFT/F-16.

And lets not talk about the mock exercises where you wanted so many things out of the equation. In real combat, an F-15 pair would eat the MKI before the MKI can even detect an F-15 pair.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

GURU DUTT said:


> well pakistani members are going gaga over the so called AWACS backed JF17s but are theynot forgetting whats on indian side well to start with owr lets assume 3 greenpines and two aerostats cover whole pakistani air space coupled withy worlds most advanced (wich big daddy china wanted but count get) THE PHALCON(which will cover all pakistani airspace and a bit more while flying almost 60 km inside India ) NOW SAY 190 su30 & 45m2k +45mig 29 ugrd +say 90 odd bisons as point defence to give back up (not talkin about Rafales)against pakistan will Field say 150 JF17 + 80 blok 52 F16 + 3 awacs and a hand ful of F7 well think twice asIAF will not be fielding onli russian BVRs onli we have some french and israeli hardware also
> 
> Point is pakistan cannot counter IAF but as they say dushman ko kabhi kamzor nahi samjhna chahiye and it applies to both sides enjoy



I don't think any country would take the chance of flying their AWACS assets just 60km's within their border, I am sure PAF AWACS will be flying as far away from Indian border as possible. Most probably hundreds of km's away in a spot where they can be useful within Pakistani air space. You do realize that AWACS will be the primary targets of both air forces in case of war?


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

notorious_eagle said:


> Sure. Its a cat and mouse game, one side acquires a piece of hardware and the other acquires a deterrent to counter it.
> 
> 
> 
> Both sides would be fully aware of each others intentions considering how extensive the radar network is for both the foes. IAF shot itself in the foot the day it went to order the Phalcon AWACS, it robbed a massive advantage the IAF had over the PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the numbers and the constraints, it does not appear that numerical superiority exist. IAF has to cover her flanks, and than perform 3 roles to implement her strategy. That itself robs her off her numerical superiority. PAF needs 350 4th Generation Aircrafts to effectively tame an IAF onslaught. It appears that they are heading exactly over there.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you lying friend? A simple Google search will reveal your duplicity.
> 
> _"The IAF would be participating in the exercise with eight SU-30 MK-I aircraft, two IL-78 air to air refuellers and one IL-76 transport aircraft. The contingent would comprise 156 personnel below officers rank and 91 officers (inclusive of 10 members of Garud IAF Special Force team). The contingent is being led by Gp Capt D Chaudhury and Exercise Coordinator would be Gp Capt Ajay Rathore."_
> 
> Press Information Bureau English Releases
> 
> If not this, a picture is worth a thousand words. These are SU30MKI's.
> 
> File:SU-30 MKI Idaho.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> It is because your fellow Indian brethren stuck to their rigid attitude and failed to listen to reason and argument. They started attacking @Teeta personally instead of his/her arguments, this is why it evoked a furious response from Teeta. So instead of pointing fingers, have a look at the posts of your fellow Indian brethren. They are still under the spell that SU30MKI is God's Gift to Aviation and the greatest fighter aircraft ever built. A dose of reality hurts their ego and that is when the start posting jingoistic remarks and personally attacking other posters.



first , how do you think that adding AWACS was a negative thing for IAF ? And what advantage did IAF had over PAF before adding AWAC ? An answer with facts explained would be appreciated.

Second , I dont know who started first ..but i never talked to Teeta in the langauge he was talking to me . Check all the posts that Teeta has replied to me and mine replies to him and you will know the truth . If he was counterattacking to other people , why he chose to start with me ? 

This is a Pakistani site which i joined thinking that there would be some unbiased and mature discussions , but if people like Teeta are there , then its highly impossible. I have seen this much on you tube.

Lastly , compare your post with Teeta's and you will understand the difference.


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

Mav3rick said:


> I am not sure how many squadrons of JFT we currently have, technically it should be over 5 as China offered 50 JFT's on urgent basis last year. Most of the F-16's have received MLU in Turkey, the procurement and upgrade process was initiated back in 2005/06. Even our Mirages and F-7xx's can fire BVR missiles (mirages after the ROSE upgrades).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MKI may be a match for JFT & F-16's 1:1 and without support on neutral ground but when you throw things such as AWACS/SAM Systems/Ground based EW systems then things change drastically.
> 
> Where did you read that JFT Bl-II has been released to production? And if there are ZERO upgrades then how can it be a BL-II?? MLU's have almost been completed. And finally, an MKI has to carry 2-3 times the weapons load of a JFT/F-16 because of reliability of the weapons it carries and the problems with the radar guiding these weapons. The reliability of IAF BVR's is seriously discredited and in reality they have a kill probability under 20% where as the BVR's carried by PAF have a kill probability over 80%. In essence, MKI has to fire 4 BVR missiles to match the kill probability of a single launch from JFT/F-16.
> 
> And lets not talk about the mock exercises where you wanted so many things out of the equation. In real combat, an F-15 pair would eat the MKI before the MKI can even detect an F-15 pair.



Regarding your kill ratio thing ....do you have facts ? when was this exercise done ? 

Also , F-15s radar is at most matching to MKI and thus there is no early detection advantage.



Mav3rick said:


> I don't think any country would take the chance of flying their AWACS assets just 60km's within their border, I am sure PAF AWACS will be flying as far away from Indian border as possible. Most probably hundreds of km's away in a spot where they can be useful within Pakistani air space. You do realize that AWACS will be the primary targets of both air forces in case of war?



agreed. Point well taken.


----------



## Mav3rick

Babbar-Khalsa said:


> Regarding your kill ratio thing ....do you have facts ? when was this exercise done ?
> 
> Also , F-15s radar is at most matching to MKI and thus there is no early detection advantage.



You can browse through the earlier posts, I wasn't speaking of exercises but actual combat in which BVR have been used. Russian BVR's have 0 hits after multiple dozen engagements while US BVR's have over 80% kill probability in over a dozen engagements. Even the AIM-9 WVR Missile was the trendsetter and benchmark for the Russians.


----------



## Srinivas

Every fighter jet take off and Landing inside Pakistan can be monitored by AWACS so adv IAF.


----------



## Babbar-Khalsa

Mav3rick said:


> You can browse through the earlier posts, I wasn't speaking of exercises but actual combat in which BVR have been used. Russian BVR's have 0 hits after multiple dozen engagements while US BVR's have over 80% kill probability in over a dozen engagements. Even the AIM-9 WVR Missile was the trendsetter and benchmark for the Russians.



The pity is that Russian pilots never had a chance to fight the US pilots in direct combat . Though they got the chance in Korean wars and inflicted heavy casualities to US . But they were in disguise , they had to speak in Korean and use only Korean equipment . Still they were formidable.

Whatever US has scored , it has been mainly on inexperinced IRAQI , Korean and vietnemease pilots .So there is no comparision.

Would like to mention that IAF doesnot only have Russian tech , it does also have French( Mirage-200) ,Rafale( to be inducted), Isralie radars , Bristish-French Jaguar and many more . 

The BVR capability of Mirage is well known (seen in Arab-Israel war) where the small but well trained Israel Mirages destroyed the whole fleet of Arab nations and achieved total air supremacy .

Even Pakistan has some earlier versions of Mirage . Now don't say that Mirage-2000 doesnot have good BVR capability .


----------



## Hasnain2009

Babbar-Khalsa said:


> The Shaheen-2 would be blown up in atmosphere if it takes that much time to reach East India. But let me assure you that after this act , the barrage of Prithvi and Agni would do in-comparable damage within 11 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> If i am wrong , then please enlighten me.



My friend, i m not talking about how much time it would travel in air over india. I m considering the time to refuel it and the time it will take to install warheads etc.


----------



## GURU DUTT

Mav3rick said:


> I don't think any country would take the chance of flying their AWACS assets just 60km's within their border, *I am sure PAF AWACS will be flying as far away from Indian border as possible. Most probably hundreds of km's away in a spot where they can be useful within Pakistani air space. You do realize that AWACS will be the primary targets of both air forces in case of war?*


 Thats exactly my point but i guess im not that good in putting it like you sir but never the less its here the indian supremecy comes in as even with just 60 km buffer zone we are far more well protected than what PAF can bost of within there territory until there is some internal sabotage but i guess we have taken that aswell into account p.s (as Phalcon wont be flying alone &for ground garud & some dedicated SF's) + all AA batteries and the power of Phalcon as it has bigger and more powerfull radar & some classified stuff(which your eyewire can onli dream of) so in short your so called AWACS wont do much good as i wont be surprised if the indian's fielding there awacs killers here as SU 30 MKI can take more load than say two JF-17's so go figure 



Hasnain2009 said:


> My friend, i m not talking about how much time it would travel in air over india. I m considering the time to refuel it and the time it will take to install warheads etc.



sir ji with deu respects i guess pakistanies are ignoaring indian Bhramos + other ACML's (russian & french +israeli) and tell me how much time a bhramos will take to say strik all your air force bases as all within its reach not talkin about the air launched version yet

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## posedion

People of India Pakistan should counter their current political mafia which is ruling them if not don't worry there wont anything worth to fight for

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Contrarian

notorious_eagle said:


> The only problem is you are only comparing bird to bird. That itself is the fallacy in your perception. So what if India is replacing MIG21's with SU30MKI, it will only be a problem for PAF if its sending the JF17's to fight them 1 on 1. But fortunately, aerial warfare is not fought 1 on 1 between birds. There are a whole set of other factors that come into play that can change the face of the aerial warfare.
> 
> It are only fanboys whom look at fancy new birds and start comparing their specs with other birds. But a real war is fought by keeping multiple factors in mind backed up by a multi layered comprehensive strategy. It is not just the aerial birds that the pilot has to worry about but what about the threat from the ground. What if the enemy pilot forces you to drop down to 1000 ft and let his hidden gunners on the ground slaughter you in the air.
> 
> Looking at the stance of Indian Air Head Quarters, it appears that they are not confident of downing the PAF in their prescribed strategy. This is why they haven't itched to fight it out, and that is why they are adding additional hardware to counter PAF's improvement in her gaps.
> 
> Numerical superiority does not exist in Indo-Pak warfare. For argument sakes, lets say that IAF intends to field 750 fighters against PAF's 350. First of all, IAF is not going to throw up all her birds in the air and attack PAF in massive formations as seen in World War 2. In today's modern warfare, strike packages are the name of the game and the question is how many strike packages can the IAF afford to send. That being said, IAF needs to insert atleast 2-3 squadrons near her border against China to protect her flank. Great AF's operate under the doctrine of not what the intention of the enemy is but what the enemy is capable of. After that, IAF needs to split up her forces into Air Defence, Air Superiority and Close Air Support. Where exactly is the numerical superiority



I am indeed comparing the systems against each other - Pakistan having very small depth, very few AF bases, very low SAM systems is very likely to be bombarded by CM's in the first day of hostilities. SAM coverage is of prime importance here.

Pakistani bases are likely to be degraded as soon as war starts. On top of that if you have a foe that wields far bigger numbers is more than likely to overwhelm your defences within a short span of time. 

India is not half as vulnerable as Pakistan to these threats - not only are very good SAM's being procured and in good numbers, the bases are spread out, and present in the heartland of India. Even when these bases are targeted the defence is good in depth and assets to be fielded spread out. Not the very least is the fact that to achieve the same level of degradation effect on IAF, Pakistan has to fire multiple times the number of missiles that India has to, for the same effect, just on account of bigger assets. Secondly the CM's themselves will be intercepted at a rate greater than Pakistan does.


----------



## Hasnain2009

selvan33 said:


> no he is not talking about radar. he said about aircrafts range. and also su30mki bars radar detection range is 400+km and its tracking range is 200+km.



Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.

See this post:



abdulbarijan said:


> Now lets come to the radar, sure BARS is one heck of a power house but according to your own vayu sena tripod
> 
> 
> 
> Or if you wanna take AERO India 2011 chart it is stated at 135 KM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By that A bars may end up looking at a 3m2 RCS at about
> 
> 123 KM (IF VAYU SENA TRIPOD IS TAKEN AS TRUE)
> 118 KM (IF AERO INDIA 2011 chart is taken as true)



So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.


----------



## GURU DUTT

Hasnain2009 said:


> Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.
> 
> See this post:
> 
> 
> 
> *So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
> And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.*



he he he sirji aap samjhte hain ki jin cheezn ko hamne Red flag jaisee jagaho per chupaya use hum ek publik event me bata denge 

sirji apne to suna hi hoga hathi ke ddant dikhane ke aur aur khane ke aur


----------



## kaykay

Novator K-100 'awacs killer' with a range more than 300kms and integrated on the Su30Mki will also be a game changer!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Hasnain2009

GURU DUTT said:


> he he he sirji aap samjhte hain ki jin cheezn ko hamne Red flag jaisee jagaho per chupaya use hum ek publik event me bata denge
> 
> sirji apne to suna hi hoga *hathi ke ddant dikhane ke aur aur khane ke aur*



This idiom is well known to PAF as well...and it is paf's habit to show off minimum of the capabilites

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GURU DUTT

Hasnain2009 said:


> This idiom is well known to PAF as well...and it is paf's habit to show off minimum of the capabilites



he he he he good for you

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> I am not sure how many squadrons of JFT we currently have, technically it should be over 5 as China offered 50 JFT's on urgent basis last year. Most of the F-16's have received MLU in Turkey, the procurement and upgrade process was initiated back in 2005/06. Even our Mirages and F-7xx's can fire BVR missiles (mirages after the ROSE upgrades).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MKI may be a match for JFT & F-16's 1:1 and without support on neutral ground but when you throw things such as AWACS/SAM Systems/Ground based EW systems then things change drastically.
> 
> Where did you read that JFT Bl-II has been released to production? And if there are ZERO upgrades then how can it be a BL-II?? MLU's have almost been completed. And finally, an MKI has to carry 2-3 times the weapons load of a JFT/F-16 because of reliability of the weapons it carries and the problems with the radar guiding these weapons. The reliability of IAF BVR's is seriously discredited and in reality they have a kill probability under 20% where as the BVR's carried by PAF have a kill probability over 80%. In essence, MKI has to fire 4 BVR missiles to match the kill probability of a single launch from JFT/F-16.
> 
> And lets not talk about the mock exercises where you wanted so many things out of the equation. In real combat, an F-15 pair would eat the MKI before the MKI can even detect an F-15 pair.



The claim of obtaining 50 jets from China on an emergency basis was never confirmed. Your own people question it. Officially only 2 squadrons of Jf17 are operational, I said three because some members say that 3 have been raised.

About the mirage Rose upgrades, can you please tell me which BVR A2A missile are they using?

JFT Blk II specs were discussed on this very forum by your own compatriots. As far as I know, the only upgrades were increasing the Radar range by 20 km and introducing an IRST. If you know of anything else, please enlighten me. I said "almost zero", not zero.
Please back your rubbish claim of IAF's kill probability being lower with a source. It is these kind of things you pakistanis invent when you find it hard to accept reality.

Again your last paragraph shows your frustration and inability to accept a fact.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Hasnain2009 said:


> Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.
> 
> See this post:
> 
> 
> 
> So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
> And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.



You're taking clean RCS, RCS of loaded F-16 or JF-17 will be very close to 5 sq m. And you're negating the role of jammers, ECMs in an aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> The claim of obtaining 50 jets from China on an emergency basis was never confirmed. Your own people question it. Officially only 2 squadrons of Jf17 are operational, I said three because some members say that 3 have been raised.
> 
> About the mirage Rose upgrades, can you please tell me which BVR A2A missile are they using?
> 
> JFT Blk II specs were discussed on this very forum by your own compatriots. As far as I know, the only upgrades were increasing the Radar range by 20 km and introducing an IRST. If you know of anything else, please enlighten me. I said "almost zero", not zero.
> Please back your rubbish claim of IAF's kill probability being lower with a source. It is these kind of things you pakistanis invent when you find it hard to accept reality.
> 
> Again your last paragraph shows your frustration and inability to accept a fact.



You are very much ill informed my friend. No. 27 Tactical Strike Squadron which is equipped with Mirage ROSE III variants is fully battle ready with MAR-1. Which means its weapons system is fully fucntional with BVR missiles such as SD-10 and PL-11s which have been spotted at PAF bases quite alot of times. If you think we are underestimating the MKIs then you are doing nothing except returning the favor by considering Mirages as sitting ducks. 

As for JF-17 Block 2, what makes you think there are no other upgrades? An improved radar and the integration of IRST is just what came forward. You never know whats cooking.And oh the best part? We are building it!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kaykay

Hasnain2009 said:


> Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.
> 
> See this post:
> 
> 
> 
> So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
> And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.



Su-30MKI will detect: 
Mig-29SMT at 160km. 
F-16 Block 52 at 140km. 
JF-17 at 140km.
While
JF-17 will detect: 
Su-30MKI at 112km. 
Mig-29SMT at 97km. 
F-16 Block52 at 85km.


----------



## airomerix

Skull and Bones said:


> You're taking clean RCS, RCS of loaded F-16 or JF-17 *will be very close to 5 sq m*. And you're negating the role of jammers, ECMs in an aircraft.



And from where did you this figure from? Or its just a vague statement?


----------



## Paan Singh

Hasnain2009 said:


> This idiom is well known to PAF as well...and it is paf's habit to show off minimum of the capabilites



if you think india show off every thing then you are in dilemma  ..

Read how india tested its nukes and read how you? it will clear your myth


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> You are very much ill informed my friend. No. 27 Tactical Strike Squadron which is equipped with Mirage ROSE III variants is fully battle ready with MAR-1. Which means its weapons system is fully fucntional with BVR missiles such as SD-10 and PL-11s which have been spotted at PAF bases quite alot of times. If you think we are underestimating the MKIs then you are doing nothing except returning the favor by considering Mirages as sitting ducks.
> 
> As for JF-17 Block 2, what makes you think there are no other upgrades? An improved radar and the integration of IRST is just what came forward. You never know whats cooking.And oh the best part? We are building it!



MAR-1 is not a BVR missile. Its an anti radiation missile. Even if we take mirages into equation, my point is same, 8 squadrons of MKi's are enough for all the capable planes in PAF at the moment. 

About JF17 upgrades, I am only repeating what has been said by your people. And if JF17 can hide its capabilities, MKI can as well. It is a general notion among pakistanis that RCS of MKI is 15-18 m2. I have seen a source where its RCS was mentioned to be 3 m2. We will never know anything more than what has been told us, so let us restrict the discussion only to that.


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> MAR-1 is not a BVR missile. Its an anti radiation missile. Even if we take mirages into equation, my point is same, 8 squadrons of MKi's are enough for all the capable planes in PAF at the moment.
> 
> About JF17 upgrades, I am only repeating what has been said by your people. And if JF17 can hide its capabilities, MKI can as well. It is a general notion among pakistanis that RCS of MKI is 15-18 m2. I have seen a source where its RCS was mentioned to be 3 m2. *We will never know anything more than what has been told us, so let us restrict the discussion only to that*.



Since we would be discussing only 'What we are told" then I think the mentioned radar coverage of SU-30 at a flex on Aero India leads to the following calculations.

BVR, Head-to-Head: 

The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2 

The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2 (Thank the God for not making it 20m2)


Maximum effective detective Range: 

AN/APG-68 V5 (F-16 MLUs): 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target 

AN/APG-68 V9 (F-16 Block 52s) : 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target 

AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target 



N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target 

N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target 

N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target 

(AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan) 

NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target" 
(The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena) 


Theoretically, 

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km. 

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km. 



@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km. 

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km. 

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km. 

@ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

BTW its pretty even. No?

And iam still assuming the RCS of MKI to be 10 since the F-15s RCS is 11 and these two birds are pretty similar in design and size.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> Since we would be discussing only 'What we are told" then I think the mentioned radar coverage of SU-30 at a flex on Aero India leads to the following calculations.
> 
> BVR, Head-to-Head:
> 
> The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2
> 
> The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2 (Thank the God for not making it 20m2)
> 
> 
> Maximum effective detective Range:
> 
> AN/APG-68 V5 (F-16 MLUs): 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target
> 
> AN/APG-68 V9 (F-16 Block 52s) : 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target
> 
> AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target
> 
> 
> 
> N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target
> 
> N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target
> 
> N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target
> 
> (AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)
> 
> NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"
> (The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena)
> 
> 
> Theoretically,
> 
> # The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.
> 
> # The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.
> 
> # The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.
> 
> 
> 
> @ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.
> 
> @ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.
> 
> @ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.
> 
> @ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.
> 
> BTW its pretty even. No?



One word. Jammers. However as I said, the RCS is not confirmed. There is no reliable source about RCS of Su30MKI in the whole world. All the sources you can think of merely speculate when it comes to RCS of Su30MKI.


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> One word. Jammers. However as I said, the RCS is not confirmed. There is no reliable source about RCS of Su30MKI in the whole world. All the sources you can think of merely speculate when it comes to RCS of Su30MKI.



The original Su-30/27 RCS is classified in the same category as of an F-15 (ie. +10m)

However I did read some where that Russians have applied some LO-/stealth- technologies in Su-35/37, and decreased its frontal RCS to the 1~3m2 class. But as far as I know, these technologies haven't been used to the exporting Su-27/30 right now.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## mylovepakistan

Babbar-Khalsa said:


> The Shaheen-2 would be blown up in atmosphere if it takes that much time to reach East India. But let me assure you that after this act , the barrage of Prithvi and Agni would do in-comparable damage within 11 minutes.



its not that plane and simple..
do you think PA considering you have an ABM system,will launch (which is not gonna happen) only a single nuke which you think to blow up in atmosphere?
definately not my boy... 
how will your ABM system prevent shaheen IIs from striking against indian land that are coming in a large number?


----------



## kaykay

airomerix said:


> Since we would be discussing only 'What we are told" then I think the mentioned radar coverage of SU-30 at a flex on Aero India leads to the following calculations.
> 
> BVR, Head-to-Head:
> 
> The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2
> 
> The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2 (Thank the God for not making it 20m2)
> 
> 
> Maximum effective detective Range:
> 
> AN/APG-68 V5 (F-16 MLUs): 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target
> 
> AN/APG-68 V9 (F-16 Block 52s) : 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target
> 
> AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target
> 
> 
> 
> N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target
> 
> N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target
> 
> N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target
> 
> (AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)
> 
> NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"
> (The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena)
> 
> 
> Theoretically,
> 
> # The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.
> 
> # The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.
> 
> # The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.
> 
> 
> 
> @ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.
> 
> @ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.
> 
> @ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.
> 
> @ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.
> 
> BTW its pretty even. No?
> 
> And iam still assuming the RCS of MKI to be 10 since the F-15s RCS is 11 and these two birds are pretty similar in design and size.



well if you consider F16 block52s then more or less they will detect each other at same time(mki will detect f16 slightly earlier though)...but when it comes to JF17 then the latter fades far away in that.


----------



## Skull and Bones

This global security site cites MKI RCS at around 4 sq m. 

Radar Cross Section (RCS)

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

mylovepakistan said:


> its not that plane and simple..
> do you think PA considering you have an ABM system,will launch (which is not gonna happen) only a single nuke which you think to blow up in atmosphere?
> definately not my boy...
> how will your ABM system prevent shaheen IIs from striking against indian land that are coming in a large number?



Notwithstanding the number of shaheens launched by pakistan, we will have a higher number of ABM missiles. Simple.


----------



## Ammyy

mylovepakistan said:


> its not that plane and simple..
> do you think PA considering you have an ABM system,will launch (which is not gonna happen) only a single nuke which you think to blow up in atmosphere?
> definately not my boy...
> how will your ABM system prevent shaheen IIs from striking against indian land that are coming in a large number?



What makes you think that if Pakistan preparing to fire large number of nuke tipped missiles our intelligence will not find that??

India can face worse Pakistani attack because of large size but your country can't.


----------



## abdulbarijan

DRDO said:


> What makes you think that if Pakistan preparing to fire large number of nuke tipped missiles our intelligence will not find that??
> 
> India can face worse Pakistani attack because of large size but your country can't.



I cant seem to understand one thing maybe you as a senior member can shed light on it...

When there is talk about* how much area IAF has to defend* while engaging in conflict from one side (supposedly Pakistan), It also has to *defend the Chinese and Bangladeshi border*, the former deploying the likes of 4+ generation fighters and about to produce 5th generation jets indigenously with a huge numerical advantage over IAF,*you cant just leave things open for a potential adversary who has already got a history of war with you *..... If any of the members bring in this factor suddenly most of our esteemed Indian friends try and discount that factor through various different reasoning .... *but when it comes to missiles etc, the depth of India starts mattering very much .... Why so*?


----------



## Skull and Bones

mylovepakistan said:


> its not that plane and simple..
> do you think PA considering you have an ABM system,will launch (which is not gonna happen) only a single nuke which you think to blow up in atmosphere?
> definately not my boy...
> how will your ABM system prevent shaheen IIs from striking against indian land that are coming in a large number?



I don't know from where Pakistan gets so many missiles and rockets? It defies all the logical boundaries of science for such a small nation.

When we talk about Iron Dome, they'll launch thousands of artillery projectiles to defy it, and hundreds of ballistic missiles costing millions each to defy our ABM. 

Maybe they should do a reality check with their military officials, the facts might baffle them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## airomerix

kaykay said:


> well if you consider F16 block52s then more or less they will detect each other at same time(mki will detect f16 slightly earlier though)...but when it comes to JF17 then the latter fades far away in that.



Even if the Block 52s and MKI detect each other at almost equal ranges then the weapons system of Block 52 leaves Su-30 in a dilemma. R-27 and R-77 are no match to the AMRAAM and iam sure i dont surprise you.


----------



## PoKeMon

abdulbarijan said:


> I cant seem to understand one thing maybe you as a senior member can shed light on it...
> 
> When there is talk about* how much area IAF has to defend* while engaging in conflict from one side (supposedly Pakistan), It also has to *defend the Chinese and Bangladeshi border*, the former deploying the likes of 4+ generation fighters and about to produce 5th generation jets indigenously with a huge numerical advantage over IAF,*you cant just leave things open for a potential adversary who has already got a history of war with you *..... If any of the members bring in this factor suddenly most of our esteemed Indian friends try and discount that factor through various different reasoning .... *but when it comes to missiles etc, the depth of India starts mattering very much .... Why so*?



I dont know why you guys take chinese support for granted. Have they support you directly ever in the past??

Also India need to maintain defensive only at eastern sector. The terrain doesn't allowed any of the country to mobilise quickly at sino-indian border and also enables defensive forces to hold their grounds even when outnumbered by a factor of 3.



airomerix said:


> Even if the Block 52s and MKI detect each other at almost equal ranges then the weapons system of Block 52 leaves Su-30 in a dilemma. R-27 and R-77 are no match to the AMRAAM and iam sure i dont surprise you.



Actually you are missing the Jammers and EW suite here completely. Its not the one who sees first win scenario. MKI EW suites is far better than F-16 and JF17.

Also MKI will have advantage of few seconds over F-16 and secondly it can carry more missiles to use. 2 BVR missiles coming at F-16 are always better than AMRAAM waiting to get fired.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## airomerix

IND_PAK said:


> I dont know why you guys take chinese support for granted. Have they support you directly ever in the past??
> 
> Also India need to maintain defensive only at eastern sector. The terrain doesn't allowed any of the country to mobilise quickly at sino-indian border and also enables defensive forces to hold their grounds even when outnumbered by a factor of 3.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually you are missing the Jammers and EW suite here completely. Its not the one who sees first win scenario. MKI EW suites is far better than F-16 and JF17.
> 
> Also MKI will have advantage of few seconds over F-16 and secondly it can carry more missiles to use. 2 BVR missiles coming at F-16 are always better than AMRAAM waiting to get fired.



I do remember some Indian Generals worrying over the mobilization of Chinese troops in your North Eastern sector. Just saying


----------



## PoKeMon

airomerix said:


> I do remember some Indian Generals worrying over the mobilization of Chinese troops in your North Eastern sector. Just saying



When you are a general you need to look at the worse possible scenario. But does our general's skepticism ensure you the chinese direct millitary support?


----------



## airomerix

IND_PAK said:


> When you are a general you need to look at the worse possible scenario. But does our general's skepticism ensure you the chinese direct millitary support?



Your General's slepticism did force him to divert 2 Armoured and 3 Infantry divisions away from your western border. Thanks to China?


----------



## abdulbarijan

IND_PAK said:


> I dont know why you guys* take chinese support for granted*. Have they support you directly ever in the past??
> 
> Also* India need to maintain defensive only at eastern sector.* The terrain doesn't allowed any of the country to mobilise quickly at sino-indian border and also enables defensive forces to hold their grounds even when outnumbered by a factor of 3.



First off the *question was not regarding Pakistan at all.*... It was regarding other borders (bangladesh and China) ... specifically taking air defense in to account, and you have pretty much answered it yourself, even if you are in a defensive mode, *you will require some defense and that in turn means the division of forces* (be it land or air) for other borders ... 
*Which in turn means that IAF cannot afford to play at full strength ...
*


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> Even if the Block 52s and MKI detect each other at almost equal ranges then the weapons system of Block 52 leaves Su-30 in a dilemma. R-27 and R-77 are no match to the AMRAAM and iam sure i dont surprise you.



One word again. Jammers


----------



## kaykay

airomerix said:


> Your General's slepticism did force him to divert 2 Armoured and 3 Infantry divisions away from your western border. Thanks to China?



you are wrong here!! We didn't divert our divisions away from western borders...but rather these divisions are newly formed specially for north eastern borders!!! About 1 lakh soldiers to be raised in 3 mountain divisions for chinese borders along with 2 armoured divisions.


----------



## airomerix

IND_PAK said:


> 2 BVR missiles coming at F-16 are always better than AMRAAM waiting to get fired.[/B]



Now you just proved how much mis-conceptional are you. In your dreams! You are confusing the effective range with the kinematic range! Seefor yourself Hospedagem de sites com domínio GRÁTIS! - UOL HOST there is a graph (from a MiG29 manual) concerning the R27 R; you will notice that while the kinematic range of the missile is ~ 70 km, the effectiverange is 35 km! Not to mention that the R 27 is a semi-active missile! This means it is no match for an AMRAAM. 

As for WVR, if the F-16 has the JHMCS/AIM 9M combo, there will be no contest...

It is always nice to LEARN you know.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

airomerix said:


> Even if the Block 52s and MKI detect each other at almost equal ranges then the weapons system of Block 52 leaves Su-30 in a dilemma. R-27 and R-77 are no match to the AMRAAM and iam sure i dont surprise you.



please read up the informative posts on this thread from the beginning, then only you will come to know that it's not just radar detection range/rcs and missile range that matters..Avionics,jammers,speed, range, altitude, number of hard points,t/w ratio, etc all matters..Consider each factor and then make your guess. B-)


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> One word again. Jammers



Please elaborate your statement first. What Jammers? Do you even how jammers work? And 'which' jammers are we talking about here. And one fellow of yours was describing Phalcon's role as a 'jamming platform' for the Su-30s. What rubbish is this? Do you even know what exactly are the capabilities of the Phalcon? :S

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PoKeMon

airomerix said:


> Your General's slepticism did force him to divert 2 Armoured and 3 Infantry divisions away from your western border. Thanks to China?





abdulbarijan said:


> First off the *question was not regarding Pakistan at all.*... It was regarding other borders (bangladesh and China) ... specifically taking air defense in to account, and you have pretty much answered it yourself, even if you are in a defensive mode, *you will require some defense and that in turn means the division of forces* (be it land or air) for other borders ...
> *Which in turn means that IAF cannot afford to play at full strength ...
> *



You both are correct in saying that Indian armed forces wont be at there best at the western sector. A 75:25 breakage seems legit.

But then isn't 75 % is capable enough to take on Pakistan?? For me it would be sufficient enough to outnumber pakistan forces both in terms of quality and quantity.

Also IA dont need to base its heavy armoured vehicles at NE sector since terrain doesn't permit so. Perhaps few T72s.

The basic premise of CSD is to neutralise pak quickly with majority of Indian strength and then quickly mobilise the excess force from western to eastern front to deter any chinese direct involvement. 

Personally I feel India will make sure through diplomatic channels that China doesn't get involves and they have done it successfully in past as well.


----------



## airomerix

Agnostic_Indian said:


> please read up the informative posts on this thread from the beginning, then only you will come to know that it's not just radar detection range/rcs and missile range that matters..Avionics,jammers,speed, range, altitude, number of hard points,t/w ratio, etc all matters..Consider each factor and then make your guess. B-)



I saw that coming. Please see the post no. 1183 on the previous page. Ive done all the homework for you for your own good regarding RCS. 

As for missile range, uhhh 



> Now you just proved how much mis-conceptional In your dreams! You are confusing the effective range with the kinematic range! Seefor yourself Hospedagem de sites com domínio GRÁTIS! - UOL HOST there is a graph (from a MiG29 manual) concerning the R27 R; you will notice that while the kinematic range of the missile is ~ 70 km, the effectiverange is 35 km! Not to mention that the R 27 is a semi-active missile! This means it is no match for an AMRAAM.
> 
> As for WVR, if the F-16 has the JHMCS/AIM 9M combo, there will be no contest...
> 
> It is always nice to LEARN you know.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-80.html#ixzz2GjMTkOFH



Perhaps it is you needs 'consider' and 'know' all the concepts of weapons delivery. No?


----------



## PoKeMon

airomerix said:


> Now you just proved how much mis-conceptional In your dreams! You are confusing the effective range with the kinematic range! Seefor yourself Hospedagem de sites com domínio GRÁTIS! - UOL HOST there is a graph (from a MiG29 manual) concerning the R27 R; you will notice that while the kinematic range of the missile is ~ 70 km, the effectiverange is 35 km! Not to mention that the R 27 is a semi-active missile! This means it is no match for an AMRAAM.
> 
> As for WVR, if the F-16 has the JHMCS/AIM 9M combo, there will be no contest...
> 
> It is always nice to LEARN you know.



Pak got C variant of AMRAAM and different versions of R27 got more range than that. R27ER (extended range= 130 Km) and R27ET(infrared homing=120 Km) are better range missiles then AMRAAM C variant. Apply the same effective range logic to AMRAAM as well and you will find lesser effective and kinematic range for AMRAAM.

Though it would not be wise to expect much of the WVR confrontation but the Su30 MKI is one of the most agile and manouverable fighter in the world. So there would be a good contest to say the least.

And yes its nice to learn so keep learning


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

airomerix said:


> I saw that coming. Please see the post no. 1183 on the previous page. Ive done all the homework for you for your own good regarding RCS.
> 
> As for missile range, uhhh


sorry but I didn't see anything on the post you mentioned other than rcs vs detection range calculations..like I said on earlier post "you have to take all factors" in to your calculations of how a bvr battle will begin and end up.


----------



## PoKeMon

Agnostic_Indian said:


> sorry but I didn't see anything on the post you mentioned other than rcs vs detection range calculations..like I said on earlier post "you have to take all factors" in to your calculations of how a bvr battle will begin and end up.



He is just fielding R-27R variant against AMRAAM and conviniently skipping R-27ER and ET variants. Refer my reply to him.


----------



## Storm Force

81 PAGES OF DEBATE from PDF members carrying multinational flags GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES ....

su30mki is MASSIVE problem .... FACT ....

its massive because TODAY on new years day THERE are 160+ SU30MKI sitting on indian aierfields rising by 20+ annually thanks to deals signed years ago and only last week. 

The only FIGHTER any where near to SU30MKI in OVERALL capability is the USA supplied F16. This the most lethal platform in the PAF esp withn amraam c5 BVRs BUT they are outnumbered 2-1 FACT 

jft thunder TODAY ....IS NOW WHERE NEAR the complete combat package that F16 provides and is too small too ligtweight to be even considered a F16 type fighter. THE F16 is bigger far superior TWR and load and weapons. THUNDER on its own against a matured FLANKER wud be suicide 

ASK THE CHINEASE they fly over 350 flankers 

you need a BIGGER LARGER MULTI ROLERS to take on MKI and survive... 

PS to those talking about mltiple assests in war 

check these out tell me how PAFS JFT THUNDERS wil cope with these 

51 mirage 2000-5








> The Mirage upgrade is expensive, but its not just an upgrade. It is the complete rebuilding of the aircraft. Almost every part is going to be changed. Even the airframe won't be the same. Parts of it are going to be changed.
> 
> The difference after the upgrade would be phenomenal. The aircraft would get new radar, new EW suite, new electronics, glass cockpit, digital systems, laser pods, optical systems, new missiles, new bombs, new datalinks, mission computers, helmet mounted displays etc.
> 
> A look at the cockpits would tell the story.
> 
> Mirage 2000H cockpit.
> 
> 
> Mirage 2000-9 cockpit
> 
> 
> The newer Mirages would be comparable to F-16 block 52 in some aspects and actually exceed them in some others. We will be getting ASRAAM missiles also along with MICA missiles. The RDY-2 radar is also much more capable than the APG-68 radar on the F16s.
> 
> The Mirages will have the most precise bombing capability after the upgrade in India. They will also be able to engage aerial targets and will service the air force up to 2030.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

The only reason the IAF have not ordered more MIRAGE fighters is because they are about to sign for 126 rafales 

The french fighter came top on a 2 years competition including 6 months flight trials beating off ALL THE WORLDS TOP 4th generation fighters .

INCIDENTALLY THE F16/60 came BOTTOM IN INDIAN MMRCA competition.

And TO PROVE THE INDIANS arent deciding on politics but purely capability since the F16/60 AND F18/SH lost MMRCA india has ordered $20 bilion of USA military hardware 

CV17 GLOBEMASTERS C130 TRANSPORTS P8S POSEDION MARITIME APACHE GUN SHPS & ENGINES FOR TEJAS ...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

Storm Force said:


> INCIDENTALLY THE F16/60 came BOTTOM IN INDIAN MMRCA competition.



Actually Gripen came in the bottom, followed by F-16 blk-60.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> The claim of obtaining 50 jets from China on an emergency basis was never confirmed. Your own people question it. Officially only 2 squadrons of Jf17 are operational, I said three because some members say that 3 have been raised.



China promised 50 Jets on an emergency basis, is there any doubt on that? Of delivery, I am not sure and quite certainly neither is anyone else. And 2 squadrons were raised in 2011.....what were the factories doing in 2012? I can only logically conclude that we should have over 5 squadrons. However, there is no word beyond the 2 squadrons.





Shadow_Hunter said:


> About the mirage Rose upgrades, can you please tell me which BVR A2A missile are they using?



Not sure which BVR missile they use, most likely AIM-120C & SD-10 have been integrated as those are the BVR Missiles that we hold in inventory.





Shadow_Hunter said:


> JFT Blk II specs were discussed on this very forum by your own compatriots. As far as I know, the only upgrades were increasing the Radar range by 20 km and introducing an IRST. If you know of anything else, please enlighten me. I said "almost zero", not zero.
> Please back your rubbish claim of IAF's kill probability being lower with a source. It is these kind of things you pakistanis invent when you find it hard to accept reality.



Increase in Radar range is applicable on even the first JFT and so is the introduction of IRST without hard modifications (soft mods). They do not make a new Block, the newer blocks are supposed to carry western radars and avionics, use composites and RAM coatings, be powered by a more powerful engine (perhaps even TVC engine) etc., which upgrade to be part of which block is yet to be ascertained. 

My claim was not of IAF kill probability but the kill probability of Russian BVR's in use of IAF, '0' Russian BVR's have engaged a target successfully in combat after over a dozen engagements.





Shadow_Hunter said:


> Again your last paragraph shows your frustration and inability to accept a fact.



If you believe that an MKI can take on an F-15 such as an F-15SE....well, I won't even waste my time there.



Skull and Bones said:


> You're taking clean RCS, RCS of loaded F-16 or JF-17 will be very close to 5 sq m. And you're negating the role of jammers, ECMs in an aircraft.



But simultaneously, a loaded MKI will be an even bigger RCS signal which could be traced even farther away. And PAF will enjoy the jammers/ecm's and ew suites that will be available within Pakistani airspace such as AWACS and EW/ECM/ECCM assets on the ground plus SAM sites.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> But simultaneously, a loaded MKI will be an even bigger RCS signal which could be traced even farther away. And PAF will enjoy the jammers/ecm's and ew suites that will be available within Pakistani airspace such as AWACS and EW/ECM/ECCM assets on the ground plus SAM sites.



Not denying that, but why'd you think Su-30MKI will intrude into Pakistani territory? For strike mission and to take out vital ground target of course, do you agree?


----------



## KRAIT

Storm Force said:


> The only reason the IAF have not ordered more MIRAGE fighters is because they are about to sign for 126 rafales


After performance of Mirages in Kargil, IAF wanted more but its production was stopped because of Rafale, as it was the better. That's why India opened MMRCA.


----------



## Mav3rick

Skull and Bones said:


> I don't know from where Pakistan gets so many missiles and rockets? It defies all the logical boundaries of science for such a small nation.
> 
> When we talk about Iron Dome, they'll launch thousands of artillery projectiles to defy it, and hundreds of ballistic missiles costing millions each to defy our ABM.
> 
> Maybe they should do a reality check with their military officials, the facts might baffle them.



We honestly do not wish to discuss the ABM evading capabilities of our newer missiles that are stealthy enough to hide from radars for most of their path and can continuously change their path to avoid ABM systems and path correction even in scramjet terminal speeds. We also do not wish to discuss the tactics such as use of MIRV warheads and Dummy warheads in a single Missile that can overwhelm even the most smartest and sophisticated ABM systems.



Shadow_Hunter said:


> One word again. Jammers



Ah yeah....the Jammers that could not jam their own outdated 50's era SAM systems of the Georgian Air Defense.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> We honestly do not wish to discuss the ABM evading capabilities of our newer missiles that are stealthy enough to hide from radars for most of their path and can continuously change their path to avoid ABM systems and path correction even in scramjet terminal speeds. We also do not wish to discuss the tactics such as use of MIRV warheads and Dummy warheads in a single Missile that can overwhelm even the most smartest and sophisticated ABM systems.



May be in the terminal endo-atmospheric phase, but no ballistic missile can maneuver in the exo-atmospheric phase.


----------



## Mav3rick

Storm Force said:


> The only reason the IAF have not ordered more MIRAGE fighters is because they are about to sign for 126 rafales
> 
> The french fighter came top on a 2 years competition including 6 months flight trials beating off ALL THE WORLDS TOP 4th generation fighters .
> 
> INCIDENTALLY THE F16/60 came BOTTOM IN INDIAN MMRCA competition.
> 
> And TO PROVE THE INDIANS arent deciding on politics but purely capability since the F16/60 AND F18/SH lost MMRCA india has ordered $20 bilion of USA military hardware
> 
> CV17 GLOBEMASTERS C130 TRANSPORTS P8S POSEDION MARITIME APACHE GUN SHPS & ENGINES FOR TEJAS ...



Surprise surprise.....there are still more orders for F-16's and F-15's then any Rafael! India is the only country in the world which is set to order the Jet, no other country in the world has seen the Jet fit enough or better enough to order it instead of the outdated F's.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## majesticpankaj

Mav3rick said:


> Surprise surprise.....there are still more orders for F-16's and F-15's then any Rafael! India is the only country in the world which is set to order the Jet,* no other country in the world has seen the Jet fit enough or better enough to order it instead of the outdated F's*.



It is because it is costly... u know the outcome of swiss's deal ?

we have the choice after proper evalualtion unlike pakistan..

even china is continuing to have russian origin jets rather than going for jointly developed "thunder"

 enough said..


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> Surprise surprise.....there are still more orders for F-16's and F-15's then any Rafael! India is the only country in the world which is set to order the Jet, no other country in the world has seen the Jet fit enough or better enough to order it instead of the outdated F's.



Would you like to see the Swiss evaluation report?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

majesticpankaj said:


> It is because it is costly... u know the outcome of swiss's deal ?
> 
> we have the choice after proper evalualtion unlike pakistan..
> 
> even china is continuing to have russian origin jets rather than going for jointly developed "thunder"
> 
> enough said..



You mean costly enough that India can buy it but not the Arabs despite pleading by the French?? Thunder was jointly developed for Pakistan and for export to other countries after orders of PAF are fulfilled.



Skull and Bones said:


> Would you like to see the Swiss evaluation report?



Yes, please.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10 B is sufficient to fulfil the requirements for Pakistani Airforce for forseable future best part is that its fully integrated with Chinese AWACs and these platforms will go under continued enhancement

F16 + j10B + JF17 Thunders more then enough

J10 B is more agile bird then Sukhoi 
F16 is fast and agile nuclear enabled
JF17 thunders are carrying BVR and Nuclear enabled 

We have absolutely no need to induct more planes 

As Pakistani I would prefer some improvement of Cities and Infrastructure and Police System


----------



## Bratva

majesticpankaj said:


> It is because it is costly... u know the outcome of swiss's deal ?
> 
> we have the choice after proper evalualtion unlike pakistan..
> 
> *even china is continuing to have russian origin jets rather than going for jointly developed "thunder"*
> 
> enough said..



It's a stupid logic. When they have Flanker And J-10 Series, why they need a light class fighter? It's like when India can build LCA, why they are still purchasing Rafael and SU-30?


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> Yes, please.


----------



## Skull and Bones




----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> China promised 50 Jets on an emergency basis, is there any doubt on that? Of delivery, I am not sure and quite certainly neither is anyone else. And 2 squadrons were raised in 2011.....what were the factories doing in 2012? I can only logically conclude that we should have over 5 squadrons. However, there is no word beyond the 2 squadrons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure which BVR missile they use, most likely AIM-120C & SD-10 have been integrated as those are the BVR Missiles that we hold in inventory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Increase in Radar range is applicable on even the first JFT and so is the introduction of IRST without hard modifications (soft mods). They do not make a new Block, the newer blocks are supposed to carry western radars and avionics, use composites and RAM coatings, be powered by a more powerful engine (perhaps even TVC engine) etc., which upgrade to be part of which block is yet to be ascertained.
> 
> My claim was not of IAF kill probability but the kill probability of Russian BVR's in use of IAF, '0' Russian BVR's have engaged a target successfully in combat after over a dozen engagements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you believe that an MKI can take on an F-15 such as an F-15SE....well, I won't even waste my time there.
> 
> 
> 
> But simultaneously, a loaded MKI will be an even bigger RCS signal which could be traced even farther away. And PAF will enjoy the jammers/ecm's and ew suites that will be available within Pakistani airspace such as AWACS and EW/ECM/ECCM assets on the ground plus SAM sites.


MOD EDIT

So you are using AIM120C with Mirages? Care to tell me when did you order them? No such order was placed for AIM120 missiles.

Please provide a source of your claim that '0' Russian BVR's have engaged a target successfully in combat after over a dozen engagements.

Yes, I am saying that Su30 MKI can take on F15, and beat it, whether you accept it or not doesn't affect me in any way.


----------



## majesticpankaj

Mav3rick said:


> You mean costly enough that India can buy it but not the Arabs despite pleading by the French?? Thunder was jointly developed for Pakistan and for export to other countries after orders of PAF are fulfilled.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, please.



 UAE is not buying rafale because of price not because of it's performance.



mafiya said:


> It's a stupid logic. When they have Flanker And J-10 Series, why they need a light class fighter? It's like when India can build LCA, why they are still purchasing Rafael and SU-30?




china still continuing with mig -21 and other planes... why they don't go for a better and cheap substitute.. ??


----------



## INDIAISM

Mav3rick said:


> *You mean costly enough that India can buy it but not the Arabs despite pleading by the French??* Thunder was jointly developed for Pakistan and for export to other countries after orders of PAF are fulfilled.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, please.


Do you think Arabs can deny Uncle Sam's order...
All of us know arm twisting ways of Uncle Sam to get orders for their defence equipments....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> MOD EDIT
> 
> So you are using AIM120C with Mirages? Care to tell me when did you order them? No such order was placed for AIM120 missiles.
> 
> Please provide a source of your claim that '0' Russian BVR's have engaged a target successfully in combat after over a dozen engagements.
> 
> Yes, I am saying that Su30 MKI can take on F15, and beat it, whether you accept it or not doesn't affect me in any way.



This is what I wrote *"Not sure which BVR missile they use, most likely AIM-120C & SD-10 have been integrated as those are the BVR Missiles that we hold in inventory"*. It shouldn't have been this hard to understand!

Google is your friend for Russian BVR engagements.

You believe an MKI can take on an F-15 and beat it too, I do not. We may leave it at that.


----------



## Mav3rick

majesticpankaj said:


> UAE is not buying rafale because of price not because of it's performance.



After flying the F's for so long, UAE considered the performance of Rafale to be sub par and wanted it to be heavily upgraded before it could meet the standards set by the F's. France was not willing to invest so heavily in the jet any more as it had no other clients and wanted UAE to bear the expenses.......UAE realized that it was not a sound purchase and opted for better alternative. That's the whole story or in short the Jet could not perform up to expectations.





majesticpankaj said:


> china still continuing with mig -21 and other planes... why they don't go for a better and cheap substitute.. ??



PLAAF had 1k+ of the earlier migs and it takes a lot of time to replace them with Chinese manufactures/developed Jets.


----------



## Bratva

majesticpankaj said:


> UAE is not buying rafale because of price not because of it's performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *china still continuing with mig -21 and other planes... why they don't go for a better and cheap substitute.. ??*



Please point out the 2010-2012 facts which shows china is still producing Mig-21 (F-7 series) derivatives for it's AF.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> After flying the F's for so long, UAE considered the performance of Rafale to be sub par and wanted it to be heavily upgraded before it could meet the standards set by the F's. France was not willing to invest so heavily in the jet any more as it had no other clients and wanted UAE to bear the expenses.......UAE realized that it was not a sound purchase and opted for better alternative. That's the whole story or in short the Jet could not perform up to expectations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



what were the shortfalls...any links to that..bcoz i heard it was canceled on financial reasons not technial.


----------



## Storm Force

Mav3erick 

Response to your comment

Very few countries have the balls to SAY NO THANKS TO USA like india 

Very few countries can afford a super expensive rafale in large nos enough set licence manufacture at home 

BY THE WAY I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS this will explain one of the reasons for rafale nothing bar F22 comes close 

The RAFALE Omnirole Fighter: Pushing Forward on New Air-to-Air Capabilities

EXCELLENT CHOICE BY THE IAF who did their global assessment thoroughly

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> This is what I wrote *"Not sure which BVR missile they use, most likely AIM-120C & SD-10 have been integrated as those are the BVR Missiles that we hold in inventory"*. It shouldn't have been this hard to understand!
> 
> Google is your friend for Russian BVR engagements.
> 
> You believe an MKI can take on an F-15 and beat it too, I do not. We may leave it at that.



You said your mirages are BVR capable. Kindly tell me how can these mirages be BVR capable without BVR missiles. If they have been using BVR missiles for over 15 years, isn't it odd that nobody knows about it.

Post a source about Russian BVR engagements or stop talking.


----------



## Black Widow

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> J10 B is sufficient to fulfil the requirements for Pakistani Airforce for forseable future best part is that its fully integrated with Chinese AWACs and these platforms will go under continued enhancement
> 
> F16 + j10B + JF17 Thunders more then enough
> 
> *J10 B is more agile bird then Sukhoi *
> *F16 is fast and agile nuclear enabled*
> *JF17 thunders are carrying BVR and Nuclear enabled*
> 
> We have absolutely no need to induct more planes
> 
> As Pakistani I would prefer some improvement of Cities and Infrastructure and Police System






My frnd "Nuclear" AZADPAKISTAN2009 : Why boasting Nuclear capability in every line? Do you mean to say your F16 and FC1 will fire nuclear capable AAMs on Indian fighter planes??? and more over what is definition of agility here?? You outrightly declared F16 and J10 more agile than SU27 family. Any facts behind it or its just your believe , ??? 




@J10 Vs Su27 Family: There was a chinese thread where a chinaman wrote that J11 (A copy of Su27) wiped out J10 (A copy of Lavi, an Israeli attempt to Improvise F16--Wiki) in one of war game... What make you believe that J10s can counter Su30s, when it can not match Su27??? Its again your belief , ??


----------



## danger007

Hasnain2009 said:


> Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.
> 
> See this post:
> 
> 
> 
> So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
> And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.



anyways does your AF pilots know that? so you are saying JF-17 got better radar than MKI? so what it can do even it detected MKI before? it still needs come close to MKI to get lock on.. and fire the missile..


----------



## Black Widow

Hasnain2009 said:


> Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.
> 
> See this post:
> 
> 
> 
> So if mki's range for* 3m2 RCS* figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose *RCS is 1.2m2 *and *JF17's RCS is even lesser*.
> And JF17's range for* 5m2 RCS is 105km, *then what would be its range for* 20m2 RCS *rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.





F15 had similar RCS, Yet no one caught that rhino. Son , the RCS doen't play any role in 4th Gen fighters. I suggest u to learn some thing about detection and tracking range of fighters. Even one detect any plane on its radar, it's not sure that it can track that plane for long. 

No matter how less you keep the RCS, for 4th gen fighter it won't be lesser than 5m2 , in loaded configuration. And mind that this is just frontal RCS, assuming that the fighters are approaching each other at same altitude.

Even F16 detect Su27 family at 200Km, so what?? Can it successfully track it?? Does F16 has 200Km range AAMs??? As I know 100 KMs is max AAMs range (some say 129-130, in approaching mode, 50-60 in chasing mode). To lock Su27 or F15 one need to come within locking range (80-100 KMs). In 80-100 Kms (BVR scenario), only thing matter is Counter measures, evasive manuver , ECM suit etc...

Here Big Fighters have advantage, Due to huge size they have enough space. 

*In BVR scenario, if both fighters belong to same generation, same class, 1 or 2 BVR missile can not guarantee the Kill.. *

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kaykay

This is utter BS that mki's rcs is 20sqm.Its not more than 5-6 sqm clean and 10-11 sqm when loaded and almost all fourth generation aircrafts will have the RCS of 4-6 sqm when loaded or even more for some....may be typhoon and rafale can have something like 2-3 sqm though.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

kaykay said:


> This is utter BS that mki's rcs is 20sqm.Its not more than 5-6 sqm clean and 10-11 sqm when loaded and almost all fourth generation aircrafts will have the RCS of 4-6 sqm when loaded or even more for some....may be typhoon and rafale can have something like 2-3 sqm though.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/20908-rcs-different-fighters.html

this will give you a general idea about rcs of different jets. rcs of mki is given differently in different sources. global security org given 4m2 while an article in business standard given it 20m2 but that was in an article to boast about stealth features of new Pakfa/T50 . there was news about Indian scientists developed a special canopy , stealth coating which is to be applied on fighter jets but no further combination about it's implementations.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Black Widow

Agnostic_Indian said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/20908-rcs-different-fighters.html
> 
> this will give you a general idea about rcs of different jets. rcs of mki is given differently in different sources. global security org given 4m2 while an article in business standard given it 20m2 but that was in an article to boast about stealth features of new Pakfa/T50 . there was news about Indian scientists developed a special canopy , stealth coating which is to be applied on fighter jets but no further combination about it's implementations.







Agree with you. I will suggest our Pakistani frnd to read this post as well ... Posted by MODERATOR:Antibody in April 2011

Radar Cross Section (RCS)
RCS (m2)	RCS (dB)


1. automobile 100 20
2. B-52 100
3. B-1(A/B) 10
4. F-15 25
*5. Su-27 15*
6. cabin cruiser 10 10
*7. Su-MKI 4*
*8. Mig-21 3*
9. F-16 5
*10. F-16C 1.2*
11. man 1 0
12. F-18 1
13. Rafale 1
14. B-2 0.75 ?
15. Typhoon 0.5
16. Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
17. B-2 0.1 ?
18. A-12/SR-71 0.01 (22 in2)
19. bird 0.01 -20
20. F-35 / JSF 0.005 -30
21. F-117 0.003
22. insect 0.001 -30
23. F-22 0.0001 -40
24. B-2 0.0001 -40


Radar Cross Section (RCS)


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/20908-rcs-different-fighters-2.html#ixzz2GnuLwscm


----------



## Gentelman

Shadow_Hunter said:


> You said your mirages are BVR capable. Kindly tell me how can these mirages be BVR capable without BVR missiles. If they have been using BVR missiles for over 15 years, isn't it odd that nobody knows about it.
> 
> Post a source about Russian BVR engagements or stop talking.



no mairages r not BVR capable....
wrong info.....



Storm Force said:


> Mav3erick
> 
> Response to your comment
> 
> Very few countries have the balls to SAY NO THANKS TO USA like india
> 
> Very few countries can afford a super expensive rafale in large nos enough set licence manufacture at home
> 
> BY THE WAY I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS this will explain one of the reasons for rafale nothing bar F22 comes close
> 
> The RAFALE Omnirole Fighter: Pushing Forward on New Air-to-Air Capabilities
> 
> EXCELLENT CHOICE BY THE IAF who did their global assessment thoroughly



well thats wrong....
every country have power to turn down us products....
Pakistan also turned down a downgraded AWACS offered by US when PAF demanded US centary....i suppose thats wrong name....
yeah thats its name..
Boeing E-3 Sentry
well overall turning down weapon offer isnot a big deal...
and Pakistan dont get that chance due to sanctions


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> You said your mirages are BVR capable. Kindly tell me how can these mirages be BVR capable without BVR missiles. If they have been using BVR missiles for over 15 years, isn't it odd that nobody knows about it.



BVR capable means the Radar incorporated in the Avionics suite can use a BVR missile! The Grifo Mx series of Radars that were installed under the ROSE upgrades are BVR capable. And this is common knowledge, available throughout the internet.





Shadow_Hunter said:


> Post a source about Russian BVR engagements or stop talking.



Google it to take a hike!


----------



## Hasnain2009

Skull and Bones said:


> You're taking clean RCS, RCS of loaded F-16 or JF-17 will be very close to 5 sq m. And you're negating the role of jammers, ECMs in an aircraft.



Yes you are right, i was negating the role of jammers, ecm and other counter measures. But with jammers, ecm etc, mki will face even more difficulty to detect/lock jf17 /F-16.


----------



## Mav3rick

danger007 said:


> anyways does your AF pilots know that? so you are saying JF-17 got better radar than MKI? so what it can do even it detected MKI before? it still needs come close to MKI to get lock on.. and fire the missile..



I wonder why you guys get so confused with performance of the radars alone when the US Government spent Billions of $$$ not on their radars but on stealth which is the ability to hide from radars by minimizing the RCS! If you can grasp that concept, you can understand that MKI with its massive RCS will light up radars all over Pakistan from a good distance which may just be the same distance by which MKI detects a JFT through it's powerful radar. Also, that powerful radar will be a homing beacon for ARM's from standoff ranges!

Let me also tell you something interesting, 1 thing that the F-15's/F-16's pilots learned from their exercises with F-22 was the fact that they could not get a lock on the Jet even through visual contact because the Jet would just not appear on the radars! That's the power of extremely low RCS.

And while we are at it, the only F-22 that has ever been shot even in exercise was shot down by an F-16 



Black Widow said:


> F15 had similar RCS, Yet no one caught that rhino. Son , the RCS doen't play any role in 4th Gen fighters. I suggest u to learn some thing about detection and tracking range of fighters. Even one detect any plane on its radar, it's not sure that it can track that plane for long.
> 
> No matter how less you keep the RCS, for 4th gen fighter it won't be lesser than 5m2 , in loaded configuration. And mind that this is just frontal RCS, assuming that the fighters are approaching each other at same altitude.
> 
> Even F16 detect Su27 family at 200Km, so what?? Can it successfully track it?? Does F16 has 200Km range AAMs??? As I know 100 KMs is max AAMs range (some say 129-130, in approaching mode, 50-60 in chasing mode). To lock Su27 or F15 one need to come within locking range (80-100 KMs). In 80-100 Kms (BVR scenario), only thing matter is Counter measures, evasive manuver , ECM suit etc...
> 
> Here Big Fighters have advantage, Due to huge size they have enough space.
> 
> *In BVR scenario, if both fighters belong to same generation, same class, 1 or 2 BVR missile can not guarantee the Kill.. *



Because the missiles would self destruct as the target is of the same generation? That doesn't seem right, does it to you?


----------



## Skull and Bones

Hasnain2009 said:


> Yes you are right, i was negating the role of jammers, ecm and other counter measures. But with jammers, ecm etc, mki will face even more difficulty to detect/lock jf17 /F-16.



Yes, but MKI has even powerful French and Isreali jammers.


----------



## Mav3rick

Gentelman said:


> no mairages r not BVR capable....
> wrong info.....



I suggest you read up on ROSE upgrades and Grifo Mx Radars on PAF Mirages.




Skull and Bones said:


> Yes, but MKI has even powerful French and Isreali jammers.



French Jammers???


----------



## Hasnain2009

Paan Singh said:


> if you think india show off every thing then you are in dilemma  ..
> 
> Read how india tested its nukes and read how you? it will clear your myth



India conducted nuke tests on 13 May 1998, while pakistan conducted tests after 2 weeks of these test. Does that means pakistan developed nukes within two weeks? No! Pakistan already had nukes but it was hiding it, and showed it to the world on right time.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> French Jammers???



MKI was evaluated with Remora Jamming pods, don't know about latest development.


----------



## danger007

Mav3rick said:


> I wonder why you guys get so confused with performance of the radars alone when the US Government spent Billions of $$$ not on their radars but on stealth which is the ability to hide from radars by minimizing the RCS! If you can grasp that concept, you can understand that MKI with its massive RCS will light up radars all over Pakistan from a good distance which may just be the same distance by which MKI detects a JFT through it's powerful radar. Also, that powerful radar will be a homing beacon for ARM's from standoff ranges!
> 
> Let me also tell you something interesting, 1 thing that the F-15's/F-16's pilots learned from their exercises with F-22 was the fact that they could not get a lock on the Jet even through visual contact because the Jet would just not appear on the radars! That's the power of extremely low RCS.
> 
> And while we are at it, the only F-22 that has ever been shot even in exercise was shot down by an F-16
> 
> 
> 
> Because the missiles would self destruct as the target is of the same generation? That doesn't seem right, does it to you?



well USA spending lots of $$$ for Radar... but they share tiny portion of their capabilities to you...so your point is?


----------



## Paan Singh

Hasnain2009 said:


> India conducted nuke tests on 13 May 1998, while pakistan conducted tests after 2 weeks of these test. Does that means pakistan developed nukes within two weeks? No! Pakistan already had nukes but it was hiding it, and showed it to the world on right time.



again  

I mean that U.S dint know about our nukes and CIA failed to detect the location even by satellites but in your case they knew even that you sent a team on c-130 hercules to china and china is helping you and provided uranium.

but never stopped you guys due to rivalry with india  and need in soviet war .

well its different topic, n i just say that dont think india keep every thing in open and even few people say that our PM even dont know where our nukes are stationed,he just controls the nuclear command and rest is under that command


----------



## notorious_eagle

Contrarian said:


> I am indeed comparing the systems against each other -



That is a mistake on your part than, modern warfare is not fought like this. 



Contrarian said:


> Pakistan having very small depth, very few AF bases, very low SAM systems is very likely to be bombarded by CM's in the first day of hostilities. SAM coverage is of prime importance here.



Rest be assured that Pakistan's SAM coverage is quite potent, just because it is not advertised does not mean it is not there. If you have been a regular reader of this forum, you must have read some of the revelations made by some of the members. Small depth makes it easier for PAF to create heavy kill boxes to sandwich incoming enemy bogies, thus its a two way streak for Pakistan. SAM's are mobile units and IAF would first need to locate them to bombard them with CM's. Most likely IAF is not to bombard potential SAM sites with CM's as you are advocating because that would be a pure waste of resource, most likely IAF will try to conduct SEAD missions to try to locate and eliminate SAM sites. 



Contrarian said:


> Pakistani bases are likely to be degraded as soon as war starts. On top of that if you have a foe that wields far bigger numbers is more than likely to overwhelm your defences within a short span of time.



Again a mistake on your part. PAF has built hardened shelters and extensive defensive arrangements to overcome enemy bombardment. There is no way IAF will degrade PAF's main bases as soon as the war starts, just a utopian fantasy of Indian fanboys. There is no doubt that IAF will send either strike packages or CM's on PAF's bases, but you do realize as soon as a strike hits, emergency crews immediately start repair work and activate contingency protocols. I think you should be more worried about IAF's strike planes such as MIG29 and SU30MKI which are extremely maintenance oriented and will require extensive maintenance before it can be launched again in the air. Compare that to PAF's assets which are simple and maintenance friendly and will be up in the air in a matter of minutes. Also owing to more pilots per aircraft, PAF will be able to launch more sorties per aircraft compared to the IAF heavy weights that require more maintenance. 

I will reiterate my point again, what superiority of numbers are you talking about. Station 3 squadrons to cover your Northern flank; than split the remaining aircrafts for AD and CAS roles, how many aircrafts do you have left for AS? 



Contrarian said:


> India is not half as vulnerable as Pakistan to these threats



You wish, these are just make feel good statements. If India wasn't half as vulnerable, believe me she would have launched a strike in 2001 and 2008. But India is very well aware of her vulnerabilities, that is why she chose not to engage in a duel with Pakistan. I am firm believer of actions speaking louder than words, putting the words aside, the actions of Indian Armed Forces speak for themselves in the last decade about their vulnerability. Pakistan can cause equal amount of damage to India as India can cause to Pakistan, God Bless missiles for that. 



Contrarian said:


> not only are very good SAM's being procured and in good numbers, the bases are spread out, and present in the heartland of India. Even when these bases are targeted the defence is good in depth and assets to be fielded spread out.



The more spread out the bases are the more time to engage in sorties. In a modern warfare, timing is everything. He who looses time looses the war. You should know better. There is a reason why IAF is upgrading her defences in Ambala and airbases in Punjab because she realizes the importance of time. A delay in sortie is equivalent to loosing the battle. 



Contrarian said:


> Not the very least is the fact that to achieve the same level of degradation effect on IAF, Pakistan has to fire multiple times the number of missiles that India has to, for the same effect, just on account of bigger assets. Secondly the CM's themselves will be intercepted at a rate greater than Pakistan does.



That we will have to see. For IAF to effectively degrade PAF's assets, she will need to get close to the border to fire the CM's. As of now, SU30MKI's have not been integrated with Brahmos so most likely India would need to fire it from a ground based system which effectively decreases the range. While on the other hand PAF's can fire Raad from the air or PA can fire Babur from the land with greater ranges.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mav3rick

danger007 said:


> well USA spending lots of $$$ for Radar... but they share tiny portion of their capabilities to you...so your point is?



Didn't get my point, did ya? Lots of $$ does not even come close to Billions of $$ (that's with a capital 'B')!



Paan Singh said:


> again
> 
> I mean that U.S dint know about our nukes and CIA failed to detect the location even by satellites but in your case they knew even that you sent a team on c-130 hercules to china and china is helping you and provided uranium.
> 
> but never stopped you guys due to rivalry with india  and need in soviet war .
> 
> well its different topic, n i just say that dont think india keep every thing in open and even few people say that our PM even dont know where our nukes are stationed,he just controls the nuclear command and rest is under that command



Actually, the C-130 that you dreamt of came back with 5 Nuclear Devices as we didn't even have a Nuclear device of our own let alone uranium! We then sent it back to get 2 more.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## garibnawaz

Singaporeans are using Kalaikunda for training. They dont owe or operate the base. They pay rent to India for using it.

Singapore lacks Airspace of training. Some of their jets they end up in Malaysia immidiately after take off hence this arrangement.

Singapore Army has similar arrangement like this in Aussia where they practice tanks, artillery and infantry war games.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## garibnawaz

Singapore leases IAF base for 5 yrs - India - DNA


----------



## Darth Vader

garibnawaz said:


> Singaporeans are using Kalaikunda for training. They dont owe or operate the base. They pay rent to India for using it.
> 
> Singapore lacks Airspace of training. Some of their jets they end up in Malaysia immidiately after take off hence this arrangement.
> 
> Singapore Army has similar arrangement like this in Aussia where they practice tanks, artillery and infantry war games.



i thnk this thread is abt how paf will counter su30mki not the other way around


----------



## Gentelman

Mav3rick said:


> I suggest you read up on ROSE upgrades and Grifo Mx Radars on PAF Mirages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French Jammers???



i dont think upto rose 3 mairages r BVR capable bt i didnot have info about rose 4 bt this rose 4 program was cancelled bt PAC....
i didnot even heard of using BVR capability from mairage platform...
and u also heard that Pakistan got BVR capability with induction of JFT....
means mairages werenot BVR capable....
well let him beleive what ever he wanna beleive.. 
okaaa sir
LCA a dream
a jet not yet induced
is the best aircraft...
now happy sir??
well i feel very itchy discussing aabout things which didnot even happened. phewwww...


----------



## garibnawaz

shahzadasweet said:


> i thnk this thread is abt how paf will counter su30mki not the other way around



Then talk to the person who brought the Singapore F-16's and IAF base discussions in it.

Thats not me.


----------



## Gentelman

Mav3rick said:


> Didn't get my point, did ya? Lots of $$ does not even come close to Billions of $$ (that's with a capital 'B')!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the C-130 that you dreamt of came back with 5 Nuclear Devices as we didn't even have a Nuclear device of our own let alone uranium! We then sent it back to get 2 more.



yepp americans dont know....
bt shec sina and his party workers knew.


----------



## Gentelman

danger007 said:


> well USA spending lots of $$$ for Radar... but they share tiny portion of their capabilities to you...so your point is?



yeahhhh they r showing very less capability...
even they dont use their full capability in Afghanistan.....
they let their soldiers kill.....bt dont use full capability..
Afghanistan is a battlefround b/w a force using tech head to toe with mullas having ak 47.......


----------



## surya kiran

It depends on what role is assigned to the airforce during an offensive situation and what the targets are.

A primary assumption being made, is that IAF tactics will be similar to the USAF/NATO tactic of going for SEAD missions at the onset of hostilities. Not necessarily true. The reason USAF/NATO goes for this is because of 2 reasons:

1. An adversary who has an airforce which is not close to the aggressor force.
2. To achieve air dominance over the determined airspace.

Pitching the IAF vs. PAF the above may not hold true. For e.g, during an armoured push the objective is to provide air cover from a defensive perspective not offense. 

Second, objective need not be to degrade air defence radars, but, evade air defence radars. Both are different tactics for different objectives. Now, the main strength of the Su30 is less to do with the fact that you will see it fly over the land border, but, it has the capability to approach over lets say Balochistan after taking off from Lohegaon. complete its objective and get back. Now this is a problem for the PAF, not, a Su30 approaching over say Punjab or Rajasthan. The problem will be a Su-30 strike team approaching Karachi with a naval fighter escort of Mig 29Ks going after Pak Navy assets or Pak Naval destroyers or ports. Why will this be a more realistic tactic? You now need radar pointing in all directions AND over water. 

And simply put you wont have 270 su30s taking on whatever number of f16s or jfts or sams. Objective is to avoid SAMs, and be beyond the defensive arc of the F16s and get out before the enemy is having time to react. This is not a boxing match where each is pushingpunches. 

Importance is approach route, objective definition and evasion. If a standard strike package of 4 Sukhois are able to approach lets say Karachi and launch their missiles, it really does not matter if there are 100 f16s. The damage is done. In the same way, if you approach from land and send 50 Sukhois and run in to 5 F16s but 10 SAM sites it again pitches the favour on behalf of the Pak forces. So its really absurb sitting and saying i will detet you at that range and you will launch at this range.

Anyways, those are my 2 cents to the discussion. Please feel free to continue the tirade.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Darth Vader

garibnawaz said:


> Then talk to the person who brought the Singapore F-16's and IAF base discussions in it.
> 
> Thats not me.



so it means dusre ka moo dekh ker apna moo be laal zror karo nice keep it up


----------



## garibnawaz

shahzadasweet said:


> so it means dusre ka moo dekh ker apna moo be laal zror karo nice keep it up



I was just answering the query. 

If you want me to answer How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI - then the answer is simple.

Pray to allah and hope he answers the parayer. Thats how PAF can counter the Flanker. Savvy?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Darth Vader

garibnawaz said:


> I was just answering the query.
> 
> If you want me to answer How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI - then the answer is simple.
> 
> Pray to allah and hope he answers the parayer. Thats how PAF can counter the Flanker. Savvy?


 
or instead just nuke it  whole of india  no wait no nothing


----------



## selvan33

shahzadasweet said:


> or instead just nuke it  whole of india  no wait no nothing



dont forget dude.india also nuclear powered.


----------



## Hasnain2009

Paan Singh said:


> again
> 
> I mean that U.S dint know about our nukes and CIA failed to detect the location even by satellites but in your case they knew even that you sent a team on c-130 hercules to china and china is helping you and provided uranium.
> 
> but never stopped you guys due to rivalry with india  and need in soviet war .
> 
> well its different topic, n i just say that dont think india keep every thing in open and even few people say that our PM even dont know where our nukes are stationed,he just controls the nuclear command and rest is under that command



I never said india keeps everything open...i just want you people to realize that pakistan also hide things.


----------



## garibnawaz

selvan33 said:


> dont forget dude.india also nuclear powered.



He has just entered puberty. Nuke India and get nuked. He don't understand the simple logics of life.


----------



## Hasnain2009

danger007 said:


> anyways does your AF pilots know that? so you are saying JF-17 got better radar than MKI? so what it can do even it detected MKI before? it still needs come close to MKI to get lock on.. and fire the missile..



JFT's radar range is >105km for 5m2, while MKI's range is around 120km for 3m2 fighter. MKI got better range but you have to consiider other factors as well, JFT's RCS is under 1m2, and it cannot be loaded with too much of weapons, so its RCS would not increase much when loaded, while the MKI's is giant in size, and fully loaded MKI will have much higher RCS, that way F16 and JF17 will detect mki earlier.


----------



## Hasnain2009

Black Widow said:


> F15 had similar RCS, Yet no one caught that rhino. Son , the RCS doen't play any role in 4th Gen fighters. I suggest u to learn some thing about detection and tracking range of fighters. Even one detect any plane on its radar, it's not sure that it can track that plane for long.
> 
> No matter how less you keep the RCS, for 4th gen fighter it won't be lesser than 5m2 , in loaded configuration. And mind that this is just frontal RCS, assuming that the fighters are approaching each other at same altitude.
> 
> Even F16 detect Su27 family at 200Km, so what?? Can it successfully track it?? Does F16 has 200Km range AAMs??? As I know 100 KMs is max AAMs range (some say 129-130, in approaching mode, 50-60 in chasing mode). To lock Su27 or F15 one need to come within locking range (80-100 KMs). In 80-100 Kms (BVR scenario), only thing matter is Counter measures, evasive manuver , ECM suit etc...
> 
> Here Big Fighters have advantage, Due to huge size they have enough space.
> 
> *In BVR scenario, if both fighters belong to same generation, same class, 1 or 2 BVR missile can not guarantee the Kill.. *



Well, JFT's rcs is not gonna increase that much when loaded as JFT is a light weight fighter and doesn't carry large amount of ammunitions as MKI do. I posted that comment because some people think that MKI got radar range as comparable to awacs. 

You got to admit that F16/JF17/SU30 all these three fighter will detect each other at almost same distance and any of these three can not fire bvr without getting into the range of other bird's bvr. Do you agree?

And FYI, we are good at producing ECM, and we get these things from other countries as well.
Some people here mention MKI's jammers in a way as if MKI is the only bird in the world who can carry ECM/jammers.



garibnawaz said:


> He has just entered puberty. Nuke India and get nuked. He don't understand the simple logics of life.



We would not had 8lac of armed forces if we had to nuke you


----------



## garibnawaz

Hasnain2009 said:


> We would not had 8lac of armed forces if we had to nuke you



Please tell that to the genious from Norway. Thats how he want to neutralize Su-30. By nuking India.


----------



## Hasnain2009

garibnawaz said:


> Please tell that to the genious from Norway. Thats how he want to neutralize Su-30. By nuking India.



May be he had news about paf producing nuclear tipped BVR's


----------



## Mav3rick

garibnawaz said:


> I was just answering the query.
> 
> If you want me to answer How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI - then the answer is simple.
> 
> Pray to allah and hope he answers the parayer. Thats how PAF can counter the Flanker. Savvy?



I am sure even the US soldiers pray to their Gods when they go out for battle against freedom fighters armed just with AK-47's! As for Flanker and how PAF should counter it, well the question has been answered in details that were not required for people with ordinary IQ's. However, as you guys are 'extraordinary' in IQ, the answer has to be repeated again and again.

My suggestion would be that you put up a few coconuts under the wheels of your Flankers and pray that atleast the pilots eject safely when these flankers face PAF! I am sure we will return the pilots safe and sound, as always.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Gentelman said:


> i dont think upto rose 3 mairages r BVR capable bt i didnot have info about rose 4 bt this rose 4 program was cancelled bt PAC....
> i didnot even heard of using BVR capability from mairage platform...
> and u also heard that Pakistan got BVR capability with induction of JFT....
> means mairages werenot BVR capable....
> well let him beleive what ever he wanna beleive..
> okaaa sir
> LCA a dream
> a jet not yet induced
> is the best aircraft...
> now happy sir??
> well i feel very itchy discussing aabout things which didnot even happened. phewwww...



Ignorance is no excuse my friend. Internet & Google are your good friends, look up the details on ROSE upgrades that were performed and the fire control radars that were incorporated. They are BVR capable. Perhaps, we did not have BVR capable missiles before AIM-120C were procured and later SD-10. Maybe we had the capability much earlier, something from China maybe, as there was no point in acquisition BVR capable fire control radars for Mirages without procurement of BVR Missiles.


----------



## airomerix

majesticpankaj said:


> It is because it is costly... u know the outcome of swiss's deal ?
> 
> we have the choice after proper evalualtion unlike pakistan..
> 
> even china is continuing to have russian origin jets rather than going for jointly developed "thunder"
> 
> enough said..



Since you know so much regarding the honest and quality oriented deals going on in New Delhi, let me open the Pandora box for you. The deal for Rafale was signed AFTER the French refused to take orders of equipment of JF-17 Block II which included weapons, electronic equipment and the radar. And this must have happened after the French Presidents tour of Sonia Gandhi's bedroom. 

Anyways before the declaration of Rafale as a winner, all you Indians were doing was just worshipping the Eurofighter and the Mig-35. 

Enough said?


----------



## Paan Singh

airomerix said:


> Since you know so much regarding the honest and quality oriented deals going on in New Delhi, let me open the Pandora box for you. The deal for Rafale was signed AFTER the French refused to take orders of equipment of JF-17 Block II which included weapons, electronic equipment and the radar. And this must have happened after the French Presidents tour of Sonia Gandhi's bedroom.
> 
> Anyways before the declaration of Rafale as a winner, all you Indians were doing was just worshipping the Eurofighter and the Mig-35.
> 
> Enough said?



its the marketing actually. Dassault never promoted rafale like others do and india have surely put dassault at top.


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> MOD EDIT
> 
> So you are using AIM120C with Mirages? Care to tell me when did you order them? No such order was placed for AIM120 missiles.
> 
> Please provide a source of your claim that '0' Russian BVR's have engaged a target successfully in combat after over a dozen engagements.





Why on Earth did you decide to jump into a MILITARY FORUM? 

Ever heard about Matra 530 AAM? PAF used it and threw it away in the 80s after the Mirages were designated the Strike roles following the introduction of F-16s as the primary Air defense fighter. 

As for Russian BVR engagement, Yet again donot INSULT the AMRAAM by comparing it with R-73 and R-77.



> Yes, I am saying that Su30 MKI can take on F15, and beat it, whether you accept it or not doesn't affect me in any way.



Guess what? No body cares about your beliefs here too!


----------



## airomerix

majesticpankaj said:


> UAE is not buying rafale because of price not because of it's performance.



Refer to the following treat my friend 



> Since you know so much regarding the honest and quality oriented deals going on in New Delhi, let me open the Pandora box for you. The deal for Rafale was signed AFTER the French refused to take orders of equipment of JF-17 Block II which included weapons, electronic equipment and the radar. And this must have happened after the French Presidents tour of Sonia Gandhi's bedroom.
> 
> Anyways before the declaration of Rafale as a winner, all you Indians were doing was just worshipping the Eurofighter and the Mig-35.
> 
> Enough said?



Hope you enjoyed the performance of Rafale over the Eurofighter 



> china still continuing with mig -21 and other planes... why they don't go for a better and cheap substitute.. ??



Because China already has more then 10 types in service. The role of Mig-21 in PLAAF is air superiority and it is now being replaced by J-10. Not so surprising or is it?



Paan Singh said:


> its the marketing actually. Dassault never promoted rafale like others do and india have surely put dassault at top.



Hence it is safe to say the election of Rafale 'may' not be entirely on 'performance' grounds as opposed by many here. Quite understandable actually.


----------



## Gentelman

Mav3rick said:


> Ignorance is no excuse my friend. Internet & Google are your good friends, look up the details on ROSE upgrades that were performed and the fire control radars that were incorporated. They are BVR capable. Perhaps, we did not have BVR capable missiles before AIM-120C were procured and later SD-10. Maybe we had the capability much earlier, something from China maybe, as there was no point in acquisition BVR capable fire control radars for Mirages without procurement of BVR Missiles.



source will be appreciated. 
well u can say that radars are BVR capable but fighters...
still a big question mark...
and why would PAF waste its money on a jet being retired...
soo according to ur opinion PAF mairages have BVR capability and ut never be used coz PAF dont have BVR missiles...
PAF never goes for a upgrade which is not profitable.....
these mairages id have BVR caoability they would be used severly...
bt these not till now fired a single BVR missile.....
soo still negitive...


----------



## rockstarIN

Hasnain2009 said:


> JFT's radar range is >105km for 5m2, while MKI's range is around 120km for 3m2 fighter. MKI got better range but you have to consiider other factors as well, JFT's RCS is under 1m2, and it cannot be loaded with too much of weapons, so its RCS would not increase much when loaded, while the MKI's is giant in size, and fully loaded MKI will have much higher RCS, that way F16 and JF17 will detect mki earlier.



JFT range is 105 for 5m2, but not 210km for 10m2 or even 20mc2. 

It is also the size of the antenna and the power available for the same.

Just think about tourch light, a smaller tourch cant see BIG size target 'out of its range' there is a limit. You need a bigger more powerful tourch to see things at longer range.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paan Singh

airomerix said:


> Hence it is safe to say the election of Rafale 'may' not be entirely on 'performance' grounds as opposed by many here. Quite understandable actually.



No its otherwise  .

Rafale passed more parameters than any other fighter in dog fight so it was selected.

EFT---still far away from be an multi role fighter and AESA not ready.

Mig-35--upgraded mig 29 and still under development 

f-16--pakistan have it and single engine + U.S restrictions and strings.

f-18--U.S restrictions otherwise excellent platform.

Grippin---> single engine and american components in it ..

Rafale have over come such drawbacks and hence it was winner.

and FYI,only 2 -3 out of 6 was able to take off from leh ladakh and rest got failed.


----------



## rockstarIN

Gentelman said:


> source will be appreciated.
> well u can say that radars are BVR capable but fighters...
> still a big question mark...
> and why would PAF waste its money on a jet being retired...
> soo according to ur opinion PAF mairages have BVR capability and ut never be used coz PAF dont have BVR missiles...
> PAF never goes for a upgrade which is not profitable.....
> these mairages id have BVR caoability they would be used severly...
> bt these not till now fired a single BVR missile.....
> soo still negitive...



There were a news/rumour that PAF added the Rose upgrade radar with some modified short range south african missile which is actually beyond visual range, but well with in 30 km range since ROSE radar range is 30-35 km.


----------



## airomerix

Gentelman said:


> source will be appreciated.
> well u can say that radars are BVR capable but fighters...
> still a big question mark...
> and why would PAF waste its money on a jet being retired...
> soo according to ur opinion PAF mairages have BVR capability and ut never be used coz PAF dont have BVR missiles...
> PAF never goes for a upgrade which is not profitable.....
> these mairages id have BVR caoability they would be used severly...
> *bt these not till now fired a single BVR missile.....*
> soo still negitive...



Incorrect. 

Matra R530 was a medium range missile and was used till the mid-80s in the PAF on Mirages.



Paan Singh said:


> No its otherwise  .
> 
> Rafale passed more parameters than any other fighter in dog fight so it was selected.
> 
> EFT---still far away from be an multi role fighter and AESA not ready.
> 
> Mig-35--upgraded mig 29 and still under development
> 
> f-16--pakistan have it and single engine + U.S restrictions and strings.
> 
> f-18--U.S restrictions otherwise excellent platform.
> 
> Grippin---> single engine and american components in it ..
> 
> Rafale have over come such drawbacks and hence it was winner.
> 
> and FYI,only 2 -3 out of 6 was able to take off from leh ladakh and rest got failed.



What took IAF 15 years you summed it up in 5 minutes. So wise of you and so unwise of IAF perhaps.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Paan Singh

airomerix said:


> What took IAF 15 years you summed it up in 5 minutes. So wise of you and so unwise of IAF perhaps.



what 15 years? and kindly challenge any of my point.

or open the mmrca threads


----------



## airomerix

Paan Singh said:


> what 15 years? and kindly challenge any of my point.
> 
> or open the mmrca threads



All of your points are flawed with the single statement of your Defence minister when he stated to Press that atleast two different jets will be brought as they do not want to add all the eggs to one basket. But what we have here is an entirely different story. 

Read the following report to know what exactly did your MMRCA deal went through.

The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National


----------



## Paan Singh

airomerix said:


> All of your points are flawed with the single statement of your Defence minister when he stated to Press that atleast two different jets will be brought as they do not want to add all the eggs to one basket. But what we have here is an entirely different story.
> 
> Read the following report to know what exactly did your MMRCA deal went through.
> 
> The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National



why india will buy 2 different jets? and i will suggest you to look at MMRCA threads ...
i know that this theory was floated and there was others too like dassault is out from race and EFT is winner and india will buy f-18 .. 



> Given all this, MoD has ruled out the possibility of "any comeback" by Typhoon despite carping by the four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) backing it, and will begin "exclusive and extensive negotiations" with Rafale-manufacturer Dassault Aviation next week. "The actual contract for the complex project should be ready for inking by September-October," said a source.
> 
> British PM David Cameron may have vowed to "encourage" India to reconsider its decision to go in for Rafale, instead of the EADS-manufactured Typhoon, in the largest "open-tender" military aviation deal going around the globe. But that is highly unlikely to happen.
> 
> "The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.
> 
> Both Rafale and Typhoon had been found "compliant" on all the 643-660 technical parameters laid down to meet specific operational requirements of India, after gruelling field trials by IAF test pilots spread over two years.




and



> The other four jets -- the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper', the Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen - were weeded out from the hotly-contested race last year since they did not meet all the "test points".



Rafale News: MMRCA, Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review

as per your intro in section,i thot something else abt you but you are too ignorant about rafale and selection about MMRCA


----------



## Mav3rick

rockstar said:


> JFT range is 105 for 5m2, but not 210km for 10m2 or even 20mc2.
> 
> It is also the size of the antenna and the power available for the same.
> 
> Just think about tourch light, a smaller tourch cant see BIG size target 'out of its range' there is a limit. You need a bigger more powerful tourch to see things at longer range.



But is there a point for every single Jet to have a massive radar such as the MKI that not only lights up all other radars and acts as a homing beacon for Anti Radiation Missiles? I mean it's not like the MKI can actually engage a target at 140km's and break away. Besides, with the introduction of AWACS and data linked network, all the Jets in the air would be aware of adversaries 300km's and beyond.


----------



## airomerix

Paan Singh said:


> why india will buy 2 different jets? and i will suggest you to look at MMRCA threads ...
> i know that this theory was floated and there was others too like dassault is out from race and EFT is winner and india will buy f-18 ..



Thank you for making my point. The rafale was rejected after test trails and all your officers were really happy about it until the french came again and offered ToTs and played dirty games. All iam saying is Rafale is STILL not selected on PERFORMANCE grounds. Finding it hard to digest?




and



Rafale News: MMRCA, Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review


> as per your intro in section,i thot something else abt you but you are too ignorant about rafale and selection about MMRCA



An unnecessary part.

Anyhow I never joined this forum to make any impression in the first place. And the best part? Iam least concerned.

Best Regards

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Gentelman said:


> source will be appreciated.
> well u can say that radars are BVR capable but fighters...
> still a big question mark...
> and why would PAF waste its money on a jet being retired...
> soo according to ur opinion PAF mairages have BVR capability and ut never be used coz PAF dont have BVR missiles...
> PAF never goes for a upgrade which is not profitable.....
> these mairages id have BVR caoability they would be used severly...
> bt these not till now fired a single BVR missile.....
> soo still negitive...



As I said, Google ROSE upgrades for PAF. Having BVR missiles is another matter, my claim has always been that the Mirages were BVR capable with the ROSE upgrade.


----------



## Paan Singh

airomerix said:


> Thank you for making my point. The rafale was rejected after test trails and all your officers were really happy about it until the french came again and offered ToTs and played dirty games. All iam saying is Rafale is STILL not selected on PERFORMANCE grounds. Finding it hard to digest?
> Best Regards



no,it was not ..you can keep it ranting about it ..As i said there were theories floated and it was one of them.
if dirty games would have been the case then you could see f 18 or f-16 in indian selection as no body can play dirty and no body can offer more than U.S or pressurise like them. 

why i should digest the things who dont even exist? 

i will again suggest you to have a view on mmrca threads


----------



## karan.1970

airomerix said:


> What took IAF 15 years you summed it up in 5 minutes. So wise of you and so unwise of IAF perhaps.



He has the gift of hindsight mate..Like It took mankind thousands of years to discover maths, and you used 5 and 15 in a single sentence.. So wise of you and unwise of mankind

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Mav3rick

Paan Singh said:


> no,it was not ..you can keep it ranting about it ..As i said there were theories floated and it was one of them.
> if dirty games would have been the case then you could see f 18 or f-16 in indian selection as no body can play dirty and no body can offer more than U.S or pressurise like them.
> 
> why i should digest the things who dont even exist?
> 
> i will again suggest you to have a view on mmrca threads



Wise men would have learned a long time ago not to deal with US as the US is as untrustworthy as a supplier as it is as a partner or friend. If only my countrymen had learned that before they invested so heavily in new F-16's with all those conditions. They should have, instead, invested in Jets that came without strings and with guaranteed continuity of supplies and arms in case of war.


----------



## rockstarIN

Mav3rick said:


> But is there a point for every single Jet to have a massive radar such as the MKI that not only lights up all other radars and acts as a homing beacon for Anti Radiation Missiles? I mean it's not like the MKI can actually engage a target at 140km's and break away. Besides, with the introduction of AWACS and data linked network, all the Jets in the air would be aware of adversaries 300km's and beyond.



Anti radiation A2A will only be in terminal phase, you need a active guidance for most of the flight. Actually ramjet version of BVRS will obviously bring the long range shots quite often with enhanced no escape zone.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Hobo1

Mav3rick said:


> Wise men would have learned a long time ago not to deal with US as the US is as untrustworthy as a supplier as it is as a partner or friend. If only my countrymen had learned that before they invested so heavily in new F-16's with all those conditions. They should have, instead, *invested in Jets *that came without strings and with guaranteed continuity of supplies and arms in case of war.



Invested in Jets ???

When has Pakistan bought weapons with its own money. Since 50s Pakistanis have been buying weapons on American aid money. 
And do you think American would let you buy weapons using their money from another nation.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

rockstar said:


> Anti radiation A2A will only be in terminal phase, you need a active guidance for most of the flight. Actually ramjet version of BVRS will obviously bring the long range shots quite often with enhanced no escape zone.



do you got any reads/links related to antiradiation/hoj shots...??what i have heard is it is passive and rwr cant detect it.


----------



## Storm Force

So According to SOME PDF posters 

RCS pretty much ensures that MKI is going to get locked on WELL BEFORE any JFT OR F16 and shot down before it gets in range to launch its arsenal of upto 12 BVRS/WVRS... 

damn these INDIANS nust be so stupid they have JUST ORDERED their 4th batch of SU30MKI from russia LAST WEEK. 

dont these stupid indians realise that a lightweight fighter costinmg 1/4 the price of the MKI will kick its *** in PAF 

why have they ordered more ???????????

COULD IT BE something to do with 

F16/52 (SINGPORE IR FORCE) V SU30MKI CONSTANT DACT battles in india have shown mki kicking the backside of the mighty F16/52 on a regular basis

or 

THE 1 v 1 battles with TYPHOON in RAF and the su30mki performanmce against french mirage2000-5 in the last 24 months. 

SOME OF pdf MEMBERS STATING rcs will decide who sees first HAVE ZERO IDEA about the advanced israeli jammers and shear size and processing power of a highly advanced BARS PESA radar over the BEST RADARS in PAF fighters. 

THE MKI is the air supremacy fighter in south asia ON PAPER by miles 

THIS IS WHY THE INDIANS who have access to virtually any fighter on the planet be it USA or EUROPE chose mki abiove the REST AND continue to order more.

IAF has no sanctions issues & no money worries LIKE PAF . 

that tells all about their confidence in this beast 

Read the article below tells you MKI programme todate and the names of currently 8 sqds of mki and their locations 

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## trident2010

Apart from MKI's own very powerful radars, Phalcons will pinpoint enemy's position without even leaving the Indian airspace. It will also augment with radars along the borders. Then its upto Indian armed forces how they want to proceed, weather neutralise ground based enemy radars/SAM's using standoff missiles or use mix of MKI's /Jaguars/Mig-29's/Mirage-2000 for SEAD operations. Attrition will always there for the attacking force however, in case of IAF attacking Pakistan, we have clear upper hand.


----------



## Mav3rick

Hobo1 said:


> Invested in Jets ???
> 
> When has Pakistan bought weapons with its own money. Since 50s Pakistanis have been buying weapons on American aid money.
> And do you think American would let you buy weapons using their money from another nation.



I don't really want to get into the whole debate of how Pakistan has been purchasing weapons, there are other threads for that. I'd advise you to contribute positively to the thread otherwise you are wasting everyone's time.


----------



## Mav3rick

Storm Force said:


> So According to SOME PDF posters
> 
> RCS pretty much ensures that MKI is going to get locked on WELL BEFORE any JFT OR F16 and shot down before it gets in range to launch its arsenal of upto 12 BVRS/WVRS...
> 
> damn these INDIANS nust be so stupid they have JUST ORDERED their 4th batch of SU30MKI from russia LAST WEEK.
> 
> dont these stupid indians realise that a lightweight fighter costinmg 1/4 the price of the MKI will kick its *** in PAF
> 
> why have they ordered more ???????????
> 
> COULD IT BE something to do with
> 
> F16/52 (SINGPORE IR FORCE) V SU30MKI CONSTANT DACT battles in india have shown mki kicking the backside of the mighty F16/52 on a regular basis
> 
> or
> 
> THE 1 v 1 battles with TYPHOON in RAF and the su30mki performanmce against french mirage2000-5 in the last 24 months.
> 
> SOME OF pdf MEMBERS STATING rcs will decide who sees first HAVE ZERO IDEA about the advanced israeli jammers and shear size and processing power of a highly advanced BARS PESA radar over the BEST RADARS in PAF fighters.
> 
> THE MKI is the air supremacy fighter in south asia ON PAPER by miles
> 
> THIS IS WHY THE INDIANS who have access to virtually any fighter on the planet be it USA or EUROPE chose mki abiove the REST AND continue to order more.
> 
> IAF has no sanctions issues & no money worries LIKE PAF .
> 
> that tells all about their confidence in this beast
> 
> Read the article below tells you MKI programme todate and the names of currently 8 sqds of mki and their locations
> 
> India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs



Your last line (the link) sums it all up for those who have any idea, literally. After all those combat training sessions with practice starved RSAF Pilots that actually need training from IAF the IAF realized that their MKI's were in severe need of upgrades to be able to stand a chance against F-16's (perhaps even JFT's on JFT's turf). No wonder the sudden rush and massive investment to have the Jets upgraded as soon as possible. Not only that the trainings were conducted with Ameatur Singapore AF Pilots but also that the training sessions had no real war time scenario where a lot of other assets complement the adversary's Air Force both in the air and on the ground!

It was perhaps these shortcomings that forced IAF to look away from Russia towards other countries for recent procurements, I mean had the MKI been the beast that it is claimed by fanboys and ameaturs it would have been more than a match for the Rafale too......Quite literally, IAF could have acquired 2x times more MKI's in the same amount of money that they are looking to spend on 126 Rafale, that would mean 250+ MKI Beasts for 126 Rafale! Either the MKI's not up to mark or the Indian decision makers are just as lame as many Indians that post here. Personally I believe the former to be true.

I also, repeatedly, have to remind Indians how effective the Russian Jammers and Russian BVR Missile are so we can all but discount everything except actual dogfight that too unless the MKI has to face an AIM-120C7 from BVR......because then its Baby Bye Bye Bye......



trident2010 said:


> Apart from MKI's own very powerful radars, Phalcons will pinpoint enemy's position without even leaving the Indian airspace. It will also augment with radars along the borders. Then its upto Indian armed forces how they want to proceed, weather neutralise ground based enemy radars/SAM's using standoff missiles or use mix of MKI's /Jaguars/Mig-29's/Mirage-2000 for SEAD operations. Attrition will always there for the attacking force however, in case of IAF attacking Pakistan, we have clear upper hand.



So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## karan.1970

Mav3rick said:


> It was perhaps these shortcomings that forced IAF to look away from Russia towards other countries for recent procurements, I mean had the MKI been the beast that it is claimed by fanboys and ameaturs it would have been more than a match for the Rafale too......Quite literally, IAF could have acquired 2x times more MKI's in the same amount of money that they are looking to spend on 126 Rafale, that would mean 250+ MKI Beasts for 126 Rafale! Either the MKI's not up to mark or the Indian decision makers are just as lame as many Indians that post here. Personally I believe the former to be true.



Then can we extend the same agreement to the super duper JFT as well.. Why would Pakistan be interested in buying additional F 16s and J 10's if JFT is as good as people on this forum make it out to be. 

The answer is simple.. There are multiple roles for fighter jets in a defence strategy.. A flanker (heavy air superiority fighter) can not replace a rafael( MMRCA) or a light CAP fighter (Mig 21 --> LCA)

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## kaykay

karan.1970 said:


> Then can we extend the same agreement to the super duper JFT as well.. Why would Pakistan be interested in buying additional F 16s and J 10's if JFT is as good as people on this forum make it out to be.
> 
> The answer is simple.. There are multiple roles for fighter jets in a defence strategy.. A flanker (heavy air superiority fighter) can not replace a rafael( MMRCA) or a light CAP fighter (Mig 21 --> LCA)



exactly!! No matter what but MKI is an air superiority fighter first!! Only multirole fighters IAF have, are mere 50 mirages2000!! So IAF eventually needed a true multirole fighter and hence we go with rafale!! And procuring 270 mkis alone says all about IAF confidence with this aircraft!!


----------



## Black Widow

Mav3rick said:


> Because the missiles would self destruct as the target is of the same generation? That doesn't seem right, does it to you?





Because you don't know Air-warfare and You don't have comprehensive Skills


----------



## Black Widow

Hasnain2009 said:


> Well, JFT's rcs is not gonna increase that much when loaded as JFT is a light weight fighter and doesn't carry large amount of ammunitions as MKI do. I posted that comment because some people think that MKI got radar range as comparable to awacs.
> 
> You got to admit that F16/JF17/SU30 all these three fighter will detect each other at almost same distance and any of these three can not fire bvr without getting into the range of other bird's bvr. Do you agree?
> 
> And FYI, we are good at producing ECM, and we get these things from other countries as well.
> Some people here mention MKI's jammers in a way as if MKI is the only bird in the world who can carry ECM/jammers.
> 
> 
> 
> We would not had 8lac of armed forces if we had to nuke you






Most of the 4th gen fighter RCS comes to 4-5 m2 with missile/Weapon/Pods loaded. Your all-alumunium FC 1 RCS will also comes to 4-5 m2, lets its 3 m2 (As per We know Rafael and EFT RCS are 1m2 clean 2-3 m2 loaded. MiG21 RCS 3m2 clean, 4-5 m2 loaded. Read PDF Moderator post I refer in one of my post ).

3-4 m2 FC1 (Partially loaded) can be "detected" at 120 km, 8-10 m2 Su30 MKI (fully loaded) can be detected at 120 Km. So whats the point here?? 


Only who has better countermeasure can win... 


I say it again RCS play very less role in 4th generation fighters.


----------



## notorious_eagle

Black Widow said:


> I say it again RCS play very less role in 4th generation fighters.



They don't matter much anymore due to the level of radar network sophistication employed by both IAF and PAF. To put it more simple, both sides will have an extensive coverage of each other's activities and there will be no surprises. It will be extremely difficult to hide a low flying strike package that is hugging the terrain as the 'eye in the sky' will easily be able to spot it. 

Before the introduction of AWACS, the biggest nightmare for PAF was a strike package comprising of Mirage 2000's flying low in the mountains evading ground based radars. Similarly, the nightmare for IAF was a strike package of F16's flying low hugging the terrain evading ground based radars.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> Why on Earth did you decide to jump into a MILITARY FORUM?
> 
> Ever heard about Matra 530 AAM? PAF used it and threw it away in the 80s after the Mirages were designated the Strike roles following the introduction of F-16s as the primary Air defense fighter.
> 
> As for Russian BVR engagement, Yet again donot INSULT the AMRAAM by comparing it with R-73 and R-77.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess what? No body cares about your beliefs here too!



Matra was never a BVR. You are insulting yourself.

I don't care about your opinions on R73 or R77, it is clear if you had a source for proving the superiority of AMRAAM, you would have posted it by now.



Mav3rick said:


> BVR capable means the Radar incorporated in the Avionics suite can use a BVR missile! The Grifo Mx series of Radars that were installed under the ROSE upgrades are BVR capable. And this is common knowledge, available throughout the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google it to take a hike!



Actually BVR capable means ability of the aircraft to perform BVR warfare, Since you don't have BVR missiles, you can't perform BVR warfare. So shut up. Your mirages are still just WVR and they will fall an easy prey to our plethora of BVR capable aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## trident2010

Mav3rick said:


> So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!



Yes. Phalcons can able to track multiple, fast manoeuvring targets at a range of up to 250 miles (400km). This means it can agument the IAF strike packages whithout leaving the Indian airspace. This in addition to Indian ground radars along the borders, satellites and MKI's BARS radar if used effectively will give it a definite advantage.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Gentelman

airomerix said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> Matra R530 was a medium range missile and was used till the mid-80s in the PAF on Mirages.
> 
> 
> 
> What took IAF 15 years you summed it up in 5 minutes. So wise of you and so unwise of IAF perhaps.



i will not say incorrect to u..
well as u said medium range missile...
while BVR=beyond visual range.....
medium range missile isnot beyoun visual range....
and It is clear from PAF official statements that PAF got BVR capability with induction of JF 17 means Mairages were not BVR capable....


----------



## DARKY

trident2010 said:


> Yes. Phalcons can able to track multiple, fast manoeuvring targets at a range of up to 250 miles (400km). This means it can agument the IAF strike packages whithout leaving the Indian airspace. This in addition to Indian ground radars along the borders, satellites and MKI's BARS radar if used effectively will give it a definite advantage.



Actually 400Km is for the targets with the RCS of about 1-2m^2.
For a normal combat plane it goes well over 600km.


----------



## dbc

trident2010 said:


> Yes. Phalcons can able to track multiple, fast manoeuvring targets at a range of up to 250 miles (400km). This means it can agument the IAF strike packages whithout leaving the Indian airspace. This in addition to Indian ground radars along the borders, satellites and MKI's BARS radar if used effectively will give it a definite advantage.




I assume there are highways near the Pakistan's border with India long enough to launch a few JF-17's carrying MAR-1.
Flying nap of the earth these can get close enough to represent s serious threat to the AWACS. PAF may succeed in forcing a retreat by removing the Phalcon from the equation leaving your strike force without coverage. I don't know the latest on the IAF's Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT) project, if its not fully operational then the JF-17's have a reasonable chance at getting close to the Phalcon. Even if the JF-17's are detected close to the Pakistan-India border the Phalcon will retreat to beyond 100 kms reducing its influence on the battle.

Pakistan may sneak a few 'combatants' with MANPADS close enough to the Indian AWACS base. The point I'm trying to make is don't take your numerical or tech superiority for granted for those who have seen war there are plenty of things that can go horribly wrong.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I assume there are highways near the Pakistan's border with India long enough to launch a few JF-17's carrying MAR-1.
> Flying nap of the earth these can get close enough to represent s serious threat to the AWACS. PAF may succeed in forcing a retreat by removing the Phalcon from the equation leaving your strike force without coverage. I don't know the latest on the IAF's Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT) project, if its not fully operational then the JF-17's have a reasonable chance at getting close to the Phalcon. Even if the JF-17's are detected close to the Pakistan-India border the Phalcon will retreat to beyond 100 kms reducing its influence on the battle.
> 
> Pakistan may sneak a few 'combatants' with MANPADS close enough to the Indian AWACS base. The point I'm trying to make is don't take your numerical or tech superiority for granted for those who have seen war there are plenty of things that can go horribly wrong.



So you are saying that you will enter Indian airspace and shoot down our AWACS and won't be intercepted in the way? Also, how will you know the location of AWACS in the first place, AWACS won't come near the border till our own air superiority jets are inside pakistani airspace.


----------



## dbc

Shadow_Hunter said:


> So you are saying that you will enter Indian airspace and shoot down our AWACS and won't be intercepted in the way? Also, how will you know the location of AWACS in the first place, AWACS won't come near the border till our own air superiority jets are inside pakistani airspace.



How do you locate the AWACS? Are you serious?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> How do you locate the AWACS? Are you serious?



Yes. Kindly tell me. How will you locate it, then enter our airspace without being intercepted, then fry our AWACS, and return back to pakistan safely? Ever heard of escort aircraft?


----------



## Mujraparty

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I assume there are highways near the Pakistan's border with India long enough to launch a few JF-17's carrying MAR-1.
> Flying nap of the earth these can get close enough to represent s serious threat to the AWACS. PAF may succeed in forcing a retreat by removing the Phalcon from the equation leaving your strike force without coverage. I don't know the latest on the *IAF's Combined Interrogator Transponder *(CIT) project, if its not fully operational then the JF-17's have a reasonable chance at getting close to the Phalcon. Even if the JF-17's are detected close to the Pakistan-India border the Phalcon will retreat to beyond 100 kms reducing its influence on the battle.







> The city-based Centre for Air-Borne Systems (CABS), an arm of DRDO, has successfully developed and productionised the &#8216;Identification of Friend or Foe&#8217; (IFF) System, which will be fitted on the Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft that will be received shortly from Brazil.





> TheIFFMk-12(S) system comprises three elements &#8212; interrogator, transponder and combined interrogator transponder (CIT).





..................................


----------



## dbc

Shadow_Hunter said:


> So you are saying that you will enter Indian airspace and shoot down our AWACS and won't be intercepted in the way? Also, how will you know the location of AWACS in the first place, AWACS won't come near the border till our own air superiority jets are inside pakistani airspace.



Sure, a few may be intercepted in time but it will force the AWACS off station and that is mission accomplished for the PAF.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sure, a few may be intercepted in time but it will force the AWACS off station and that is mission accomplished for the PAF.



Not few. All, remember who has numerical strength. And its not PAF.

Btw, why are you talking about AWACS in the first place? This thread is about stopping the MKI isn't it? MKI itself can function as a mini AWACS, and it carrier 14 BVR missiles too.


----------



## DARKY

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I assume there are highways near the Pakistan's border with India long enough to launch a few JF-17's carrying MAR-1.
> Flying nap of the earth these can get close enough to represent s serious threat to the AWACS. PAF may succeed in forcing a retreat by removing the Phalcon from the equation leaving your strike force without coverage.* I don't know* the latest on the IAF's Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT) project, if its not fully operational then the JF-17's have a reasonable chance at getting close to the Phalcon. Even if the JF-17's are detected close to the Pakistan-India border the Phalcon will retreat to beyond 100 kms reducing its influence on the battle.
> 
> Pakistan *may sneak a few 'combatants' with MANPADS* close enough to the Indian AWACS base. The point I'm trying to make is don't take your numerical or tech superiority for granted for those who have seen war there are plenty of things that can go horribly wrong.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/51985-thales-chosen-modernise-iff-india-s-mig-29-a.html

You mean something like this.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/219130-attack-pakistans-erieye.html

IAF Phalcons are spread out 1000Km apart and on different bases well over 1000Km from Pakistan Border.


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Matra was never a BVR. You are insulting yourself.



Matra R530 was always a medium range radar guided air to air missile. 



> I don't care about your opinions on R73 or R77, it is clear if you had a source for proving the superiority of AMRAAM, you would have posted it by now.



Russian AAMs are always primitive compared to Western weapons. AA-8 (R-60) v/s AIM-9L etc. So there is no surprise if R-77 is piece of junk when compared with AMRAAM. The word is that the R77 has better aerodynamic performance (G's, speed, manueverability) but the AMRAAM has better radar, ECCM and guidance. And this is why it is called 'Fire and Forget' missile.


----------



## DARKY

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sure, a few may be intercepted in time but it will force the AWACS off station and that is mission accomplished for the PAF.



IAF Phalcon even being 100 miles inside the Indian border can see what is going on 200 miles inside the Pakistan border such is its coverage.


----------



## dbc

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Yes. Kindly tell me. How will you locate it, then enter our airspace without being intercepted, then fry our AWACS, and return back to pakistan safely? Ever heard of escort aircraft?



Locating the AWACS is easy it emits a lot of radiation. The Phalcon is worth the loss of a few JF-17's. And yes the JF-17's can take off from highways, regardless of fighter escort cover the AWACS will retreat it is too valuable to take chances with. The scenario I described has been tried in mock combat and has a decent chance of succeeding.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> Matra R530 was always a medium range radar guided air to air missile.
> 
> 
> 
> Russian AAMs are always primitive compared to Western weapons. AA-8 (R-60) v/s AIM-9L etc. So there is no surprise if R-77 is piece of junk when compared with AMRAAM. The word is that the R77 has better aerodynamic performance (G's, speed, manueverability) but the AMRAAM has better radar, ECCM and guidance. And this is why it is called 'Fire and Forget' missile.



We are talking about BVR here, not medium range. Mirages were never BVR ready, case closed.

About Russian AAMs, your chinese friends seem to disagree.

R-73 (AA-11) Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile - SinoDefence.com


----------



## dbc

DARKY said:


> IAF Phalcon even being 100 miles inside the Indian border can see what is going on 200 miles inside the Pakistan border such is its coverage.



and the MAR-1 has a range of 100 kms, flying full AB how long do you thing the PAF will take to get to launch range?


----------



## dbc

DARKY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/51985-thales-chosen-modernise-iff-india-s-mig-29-a.html
> 
> IAF Phalcons are spread out 1000Km apart and on different bases well over 1000Km from Pakistan Border.



Are you saying an enemy combatant can't catch a train or drive to the base with a hidden MANPAD? He or she will look like an Indian, talk like an Indian and probably carry fake Indian ID. Is this far fetched?


----------



## DARKY

airomerix said:


> Russian AAMs are always primitive compared to Western weapons. AA-8 (R-60) v/s AIM-9L etc. So there is no surprise if R-77 is piece of junk when compared with AMRAAM. The word is that the R77 has better aerodynamic performance (G's, speed, manueverability) but the AMRAAM has better radar, ECCM and guidance. And this is why it is called 'Fire and Forget' missile.




There is no fire and forget for the Aim120C5 If the F-16 turns away just after the launch.

However when we talk about RVV-AE/RVV-AE-SD on a Su30MKI... It is a different thing... with the rear facing radar and much wider coverage the the main radar alone... which supports multiple engagements much easily done well within upto 120 degree arc.

Besides that It is not necessary that Russian AAMs are good at Kinematics and US AMMs good at Electronics... for instance RVV-SD is mch better than Aim120C5 in electronics however inferior to Aim120D in kinematics... thanks to the dual-pulse rocket motors... similarly R-73M/74 is a far superior missile as compared with Aim9L/M which PAF fields.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you saying an enemy combatant can't catch a train or drive to the base with a hidden MANPAD? He or she will look like an Indian, talk like an Indian and probably carry fake Indian ID. Is this far fetched?



Yes. Unlike pakistani airbases, our airbases have security.


----------



## DARKY

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> and the MAR-1 has a range of 100 kms, flying full AB how long do you thing the PAF will take to get to launch range?



100 miles=160.934 Km


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Keep believing it, and show it to some seniors members as well. I want everyone to know what an idiot you are. Any senior member reading your post will laugh as hard as I am laughing right now.
> 
> Btw, even if we believe your scenario, it will mean that many JF17 will go down for nothing. AWACS once retreated can come back to haunt PAF once more in a few hours.
> 
> Also please tell me where exactly this scenario has been tried in mock combat.



buddy ,No need to insult her, she is one of the knowledgeable members here.just make your counter arguments.


----------



## dbc

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Keep believing it, and show it to some seniors members as well. I want everyone to know what an idiot you are. Any senior member reading your post will laugh as hard as I am laughing right now.



Glad I could brighten your day and bring cheer to a few Indians.




Shadow_Hunter said:


> Also please tell me where exactly this scenario has been tried in mock combat.



I'm tempted to but I could get into a lot of trouble for answering your question. For now you can carry on believing that your Phalcon is invulnerable.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Glad I could brighten your day and bring cheer to a few Indians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm tempted to but I could get into a lot of trouble for answering your question. For now you can carry on believing that your Phalcon is invulnerable.



Phalcon is not invulnerable. But it definitely won't fall prey to the scenario suggested by you.

The thread is about MKI anyways. Why did you need to bring AWACS in this is beyond comprehension.


----------



## dbc

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Yes. Unlike pakistani airbases, our airbases have security.



I have actually visited an Indian base, the tactics used by the Taliban against US, British and Pakistani bases will just as easily succeed against Indian bases. And you don't have to be in the base to launch a manpad at an AWACS depending on approach altitude 5 to 10 kms from the runway is close enough.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I have actually visited an Indian base, the tactics used by the Taliban against US, British and Pakistani bases will just as easily succeed against Indian bases. And you don't have to be in the base to launch a manpad at an AWACS depending on approach altitude 5 to 10 kms from the runway is close enough.



Then we spent billion of dollars on nothing. Thanks for pointing out our mistakes, we will ship back these AWACS as soon as we can since they are useless can be taken by any gun for hire with a MANPAD.


----------



## DARKY

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Phalcon is not invulnerable. But it definitely won't fall prey to the scenario suggested by you.
> 
> The thread is about MKI anyways. Why did you need to bring AWACS in this is beyond comprehension.



If there can be an attack on Parliament there then there sure can be attack on an IAF base... but as to what magnitude and how successful keeping in mind the extra security after the Mumbai attacks is another question.


----------



## dbc

DARKY said:


> 100 miles=160.934 Km



Yes the AWACS has 2 to 7 minutes reaction time depending on how fast the threat is approaching.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I have actually visited an* Indian base*, the tactics used by the Taliban against US, British and Pakistani bases will just as easily succeed against Indian bases. And you don't have to be in the base to launch a manpad at an AWACS depending on approach altitude 5 to 10 kms from the runway is close enough.



Which base were you at ?

Unlike what US/British/Pakistani Airbases face in shadow of insurgent groups/Taliban/Terrorist etc while in Afghanistan/Iraq/Pakistan... most Indian bases are in isolated areas without any threat of insurgent groups/Taliban/Terrorists... I won't say its on par with the security levels with the bases inside US/UK but IAF has been doing every thing to make it as safe.


----------



## trident2010

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you saying an enemy combatant can't catch a train or drive to the base with a hidden MANPAD? He or she will look like an Indian, talk like an Indian and probably carry fake Indian ID. Is this far fetched?



Are you talking about attacks on PAF airbases which destroyed 2 Erieye's? Sending MANPAD's in train to Indian airbases? What to say?


----------



## DARKY

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Yes the AWACS has 2 to 7 minutes reaction time depending on how fast the threat is approaching.



I was trying to show you the distance it had to travel near the ground barely 10-30m above with its AB on the fuel guzzling RD-93.

Too add on that you completely downplay the effect Ground based SAM cover can have on such engagements.


----------



## dbc

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Then we spent billion of dollars on nothing. Thanks for pointing out our mistakes, we will ship back these AWACS as soon as we can since they are useless can be taken by any gun for hire with a MANPAD.



Are you saying in a crowded country like India a man standing on the roof top of a building near an Indian base will attract a lot of attention? Are you suggesting that a missile like Stinger or equivalent has no chance against a huge target like the Phalcon? Are you suggesting that Pakistan will not resort to such tactic against a superior adversary?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## dbc

DARKY said:


> I was trying to show you the distance it had to travel near the ground barely 10-30m above with its AB on the fuel guzzling RD-93.
> 
> Too add on that you completely downplay the effect Ground based SAM cover can have on such engagements.



Good point, don't know if the JF-17 has terrain avoidance capability or enough fuel to sustain full AB for 5 minutes. But SAM's are for area defense typically found in or near sensitive installations for protection. Long range SAMS on the other hand is not as effective against low flying aircraft.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you saying in a crowded country like India a man standing on the roof top of a building near an Indian base will attract a lot of attention? Are you suggesting that a missile like Stinger or equivalent has no chance against a huge target like the Phalcon? Are you suggesting that Pakistan will not resort to such tactic against a superior adversary?



I would have replied to this post in detail if this wasn't a pakistani forum, and the person who thanked your post hadn't handed me an infraction.


----------



## DARKY

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Good point, don't know if the JF-17 has terrain avoidance capability or enough fuel to sustain full AB for 5 minutes. But SAM's are for area defense typically found in or near sensitive installations for protection. Long range SAMS on the other hand is not as effective against low flying aircraft.



The area where phalcons would be flying would generally have a few dozens of these.. supporting the Armor and Mechanized groups and providing cover for Helo gunships.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I would have replied to this post in detail if this wasn't a pakistani forum, and the person who thanked your post hadn't handed me an infraction.



lol..infraction was probably for the foul language you used, but any way that wouldn't prevent you from making counter arguments, so if you have some relevant knowledge then share it with us, just make sure that you don't reveal anything classified, if you have any.


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Good point, don't know if the JF-17 has terrain avoidance capability or enough fuel to sustain full AB for 5 minutes. But SAM's are for area defense typically found in or near sensitive installations for protection. Long range SAMS on the other hand is not as effective against low flying aircraft.



Ah Kathy,

Happy new year and BTW why are you forgetting the same can be done by the Indian side using the Mirage 2k and the MiG 29 with the AS-31 and the KH-55 against their SAAB...and the Indian Radars far out range all the Radars in the Pakistani arsenal...the Phalcon flying a little inside can still see whats happening inside the Pakistani territory but the Erieye cant do that.

Above all it is the aircraft's radar that is going to guide the missile not the AWACS radar.


----------



## DARKY

satishkumarcsc said:


> Ah Kathy,
> 
> Happy new year and BTW why are you forgetting the same can be done by the Indian side using the Mirage 2k and the MiG 29 with the AS-31 and the KH-55 against their SAAB...and the Indian Radars far out range all the Radars in the Pakistani arsenal...the Phalcon flying a little inside can still see whats happening inside the Pakistani territory but the Erieye cant do that.
> 
> Above all it is the aircraft's radar that is going to guide the missile not the AWACS radar.



You forgot... perhaps..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## kaykay

I would like to know if Novator K-100 'awacs killer' will play some role or not??


----------



## satishkumarcsc

kaykay said:


> I would like to know if Novator K-100 'awacs killer' will play some role or not??




First of all does it exist?


----------



## Skull and Bones

satishkumarcsc said:


> First of all does it exist?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

Skull and Bones said:


>



There was no need to stir the hornet's nest.. now they will start ranting about nuclear war and dooms day and Other BS.


----------



## Skull and Bones

kaykay said:


> I would like to know if Novator K-100 'awacs killer' will play some role or not??



Yes, K-100 will force the adversary AWACS to operate deep inside Pakistani territory, thus reducing their tactical coverage area.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Skull and Bones said:


> Yes, K-100 will force the adversary AWACS to operate deep inside Pakistani territory, thus reducing their tactical coverage area.



K100 isn't operational.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Shadow_Hunter said:


> K100 isn't operational.



Nothing has been heard about it for quite time, K-100 was kept low profile from the very beginning.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Skull and Bones said:


> Nothing has been heard about it for quite time, K-100 was kept low profile from the very beginning.



most probably it's not been procured yet..2011 news says iaf has plans to procure it.


----------



## Manticore

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I would have replied to this post in detail if this wasn't a pakistani forum, and the person who thanked your post hadn't handed me an infraction.



If your reply involves insults and letting down some one who has actually come up with a scenario just for the sake of your ego , rather than to post constructively with counter arguments , then you should definitely keep your bright ideas to yourself

There was a time when members never stooped to the language i am seeing here right now --- members used to adress others as sir/madam --- not like teenagers running amok


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

ANTIBODY said:


> If your reply involves insults and letting down some one who has actually come up with a scenario just for the sake of your ego , rather than to post constructively with counter arguments , then you should definitely keep your bright ideas to yourself
> 
> There was a time when members never stooped to the language i am seeing here right now --- members used to adress others as sir/madam --- not like teenagers running amok



If I was suggesting the most stupid scenario to you, I doubt you will address me as sir. The members suggestion was idiotic and I called a spade a spade. I would have post counter arguments if his/her post would have deserved it.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Agnostic_Indian said:


> most probably it's not been procured yet..2011 news says iaf has plans to procure it.



Yes, probably. But we know what we're going to integrate with MKI in near future. Probably it's in the upgrade package of the super MKIs, just like Brahmos.


----------



## dbc

satishkumarcsc said:


> Ah Kathy,
> 
> Happy new year and BTW why are you forgetting the same can be done by the Indian side using the Mirage 2k and the MiG 29 with the AS-31 and the KH-55 against their SAAB...and the Indian Radars far out range all the Radars in the Pakistani arsenal...the Phalcon flying a little inside can still see whats happening inside the Pakistani territory but the Erieye cant do that.
> 
> Above all it is the aircraft's radar that is going to guide the missile not the AWACS radar.



Hello and a happy a new year to you too.I'm Kathy's husband, Kathy's busy with our beautiful baby girl. I sometimes log in using her account. PAF know they don't have the territorial depth to protect their airborne radar and they train to be almost as effective without it. As for what the Phalcon can see, the problem is the Phalcon sees too much. I admit I don't know much about the Phalcon but I assume it is as good or better than the USAF E3.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## dbc

Shadow_Hunter said:


> If I was suggesting the most stupid scenario to you, I doubt you will address me as sir. The members suggestion was idiotic and I called a spade a spade. I would have post counter arguments if his/her post would have deserved it.



War is dirty business kid and if you don't believe me google "The CIA saboteurs handbook" the edition used during WW II was recently declassified. I'm sure the latest edition is a million times nastier. Don't expect the enemy to fight fair and the best way to loose a fight is to go into it thinking you can't be beaten.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I assume there are highways near the Pakistan's border with India long enough to launch a few JF-17's carrying MAR-1.
> Flying nap of the earth these can get close enough to represent s serious threat to the AWACS. PAF may succeed in forcing a retreat by removing the Phalcon from the equation leaving your strike force without coverage. I don't know the latest on the IAF's Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT) project, if its not fully operational then the JF-17's have a reasonable chance at getting close to the Phalcon. Even if the JF-17's are detected close to the Pakistan-India border the Phalcon will retreat to beyond 100 kms reducing its influence on the battle.
> 
> Pakistan may sneak a few 'combatants' with MANPADS close enough to the Indian AWACS base. The point I'm trying to make is don't take your numerical or tech superiority for granted for those who have seen war there are plenty of things that can go horribly wrong.



well you are considering surprise attack from PAF on IAF bases only? i am glad you are not talking any thing related to title...
so you are saying our awacs is useless against JF-17? ....


----------



## Mav3rick

karan.1970 said:


> Then can we extend the same agreement to the super duper JFT as well.. Why would Pakistan be interested in buying additional F 16s and J 10's if JFT is as good as people on this forum make it out to be.
> 
> The answer is simple.. There are multiple roles for fighter jets in a defence strategy.. A flanker (heavy air superiority fighter) can not replace a rafael( MMRCA) or a light CAP fighter (Mig 21 --> LCA)



There is as yet no confirmation on the J-10's procurement. And if there is any additional procurement, it would only be to ensure that the aging fleet of Mirages and F-7 family are retired as soon as possible.

Now to your next para, in a dog fight 1:1 without external aids and with their individual radars and weapons......assuming that both the pilots have had identical flying hours on their respective Jets.....which would hold a distinct advantage over the other in a BVR engagement and then a WVR engagement? Is not 'Air Superiority' the primary designated role of both these fighters?



Black Widow said:


> Because you don't know Air-warfare and You don't have comprehensive Skills



To your primitive little excuse of a brain, that must seem the correct answer!


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Actually BVR capable means ability of the aircraft to perform BVR warfare, Since you don't have BVR missiles, you can't perform BVR warfare. So shut up. Your mirages are still just WVR and they will fall an easy prey to our plethora of BVR capable aircraft.



Actually NO!

BVR capable means the Jet can actually use BVR missiles for BVR engagements! But you can continue your rant!



trident2010 said:


> Yes. Phalcons can able to track multiple, fast manoeuvring targets at a range of up to 250 miles (400km). This means it can agument the IAF strike packages whithout leaving the Indian airspace. This in addition to Indian ground radars along the borders, satellites and MKI's BARS radar if used effectively will give it a definite advantage.



That may not be possible because at maximum range the Phalcons will be Jammed by PAF AWACS and other ground based EW Assets. I mean the Phalcon would most definitely hold its own within Indian air space where it would be safe 150-200 km's inside IAF territory but to think that it's range would be maximum advertised range despite the adversary's AWACS Jamming the signals and successfully Jamming Phalcons the closeer the detection gets to PAF AWACS is not very smart.

Maybe if the Phalcons are 200km's deep within IAF territory then they may be able to look 100km's inside PAF air space. And so on.


----------



## Mav3rick

Gentelman said:


> i will not say incorrect to u..
> well as u said medium range missile...
> while BVR=beyond visual range.....
> medium range missile isnot beyoun visual range....
> and It is clear from PAF official statements that PAF got BVR capability with induction of JF 17 means Mairages were not BVR capable....



You do realize that F-16's Block 52 were delivered with AIM-120C7 before SD-10 was integrated into JFT right? I hope you understand where I am going with this! And please, for the love of God, go and read up on the ROSE upgrades on Mirages before you continue to make a fool of yourself.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> There is as yet no confirmation on the J-10's procurement. And if there is any additional procurement, it would only be to ensure that the aging fleet of Mirages and F-7 family are retired as soon as possible.
> 
> Now to your next para, in a dog fight 1:1 without external aids and with their individual radars and weapons......assuming that both the pilots have had identical flying hours on their respective Jets.....which would hold a distinct advantage over the other in a BVR engagement and then a WVR engagement? Is not 'Air Superiority' the primary designated role of both these fighters?
> 
> 
> 
> To your primitive little excuse of a brain, that must seem the correct answer!



in 1 vs 1 fight I don't see f16 or Jf17 having a good chance of winning..but if mki is over pak territory and challenged with multiple platforms like Sam,awac support, interceptors etc then it certainly is vulnerable..Ever seen how lions bring down a wild buffalo?


----------



## danger007

Mav3rick said:


> Actually NO!
> 
> BVR capable means the Jet can actually use BVR missiles for BVR engagements! But you can continue your rant!
> 
> 
> 
> That may not be possible because at maximum range the Phalcons will be Jammed by PAF AWACS and other ground based EW Assets. I mean the Phalcon would most definitely hold its own within Indian air space where it would be safe 150-200 km's inside IAF territory but to think that it's range would be maximum advertised range despite the adversary's AWACS Jamming the signals and successfully Jamming Phalcons the closeer the detection gets to PAF AWACS is not very smart.
> 
> Maybe if the Phalcons are 200km's deep within IAF territory then they may be able to look 100km's inside PAF air space. And so on.



doesn't our awacs and EW assets block PAF awacs?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> There is no fire and forget for the Aim120C5 If the F-16 turns away just after the launch.



And why should we be bothered by what the AIM-120C5 has? It is the AIM-120C7 that PAF possess as well as SD-10.





DARKY said:


> However when we talk about RVV-AE/RVV-AE-SD on a Su30MKI... It is a different thing... with the rear facing radar and much wider coverage the the main radar alone... which supports multiple engagements much easily done well within upto 120 degree arc.
> 
> Besides that It is not necessary that Russian AAMs are good at Kinematics and US AMMs good at Electronics... for instance RVV-SD is mch better than Aim120C5 in electronics however inferior to Aim120D in kinematics... thanks to the dual-pulse rocket motors... similarly R-73M/74 is a far superior missile as compared with Aim9L/M which PAF fields.



Far superior as in that IAF fields it? Because the fights b/w American and Russian Jets with their respective Missiles speaks volumes of the 'superiority' of Russian weapons


----------



## Mav3rick

Agnostic_Indian said:


> in 1 vs 1 fight I don't see f16 or Jf17 having a good chance of winning..but if mki is over pak territory and challenged with multiple platforms like Sam,awac support, interceptors etc then it certainly is vulnerable..Ever seen how lions bring down a wild buffalo?



I meant a 1:1 b/w Rafale & MKI.



danger007 said:


> doesn't our awacs and EW assets block PAF awacs?



Ofcourse it would and I am sure a lot more effectively then PAF AWACS assets. But you are negating the fact that PAF AWACS will be designated to defend PAF Air space which they can do effectively 100's of km's away from the border, out of range of your fighters and Phalcons EW.


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> And why should we be bothered by what the AIM-120C5 has? It is the *AIM-120C7* that PAF possess as well as SD-10.











> To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
> 
> 500 *AIM-120C5* Advanced *Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles* (AMRAAM)



$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s



Mav3rick said:


> Far superior as in that IAF fields it? Because the fights b/w American and Russian Jets with their respective Missiles speaks volumes of the 'superiority' of Russian weapons



Only If that can get in your Head... read about those engagements before making ridiculous statements.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> I meant a 1:1 b/w Rafale & MKI.



then I would go with rafale


----------



## Storm Force

Mav3rick

Your comment re SINGPORE PILOTS being amaretish is rich coming from a pakistani paf fan boy.

PAF can only dream about the level of technology and training that is avialble to singpore air force pilots. They have military budget per pilot that is ten fold of the average PAF pilot. 

I suggest you check the AIRFORCE faxciklities and planes and hardware abnd compare. BELIEVE the singpore air force do not fly MIRAGE from the 1970S OR F7s as per average PAF pilot. 

BY THE WAY IAF uses israeli jammers from ELTA NOT RUSSIAN. 

CHECK YOUR FACTS.

and finally 

since awarding RAFALE THE MMRCA contract india have signed for a further 42 su30mki . SO youir comments about MKI being deemed russian crap is also way off the mark 

ANY MORE COMMENTS im all ears

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## satishkumarcsc

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Hello and a happy a new year to you too.I'm Kathy's husband, Kathy's busy with our beautiful baby girl. I sometimes log in using her account. PAF know they don't have the territorial depth to protect their airborne radar and they train to be almost as effective without it. As for what the Phalcon can see, the problem is the Phalcon sees too much. I admit I don't know much about the Phalcon but I assume it is as good or better than the USAF E3.




Regards to all of you in your family and Congrats on your baby girl! The Phalcon is as good as the E3 of 2005 but as they say "You will never know what the Americans bring to the war till you fight them."


----------



## MilSpec

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I assume there are highways near the Pakistan's border with India long enough to launch a few JF-17's carrying MAR-1.
> Flying nap of the earth these can get close enough to represent s serious threat to the AWACS. PAF may succeed in forcing a retreat by removing the Phalcon from the equation leaving your strike force without coverage. I don't know the latest on the IAF's Combined Interrogator Transponder (CIT) project, if its not fully operational then the JF-17's have a reasonable chance at getting close to the Phalcon. Even if the JF-17's are detected close to the Pakistan-India border the Phalcon will retreat to beyond 100 kms reducing its influence on the battle.
> 
> Pakistan may sneak a few 'combatants' with MANPADS close enough to the Indian AWACS base. The point I'm trying to make is don't take your numerical or tech superiority for granted for those who have seen war there are plenty of things that can go horribly wrong.



And for some odd reason, the exact opposite is inconceivable, right?


----------



## notorious_eagle

sandy_3126 said:


> And for some odd reason, the exact opposite is inconceivable, right?



Not at all, war is a very dirty and tricky business as DOB pointed out. Expect both sides to employ dirty techniques to harass the enemy. To prevent something like this, you would need Neighbourhood Community Watch pretty much all around the country similar to what the Israelis have.



danger007 said:


> doesn't our awacs and EW assets block PAF awacs?



To put it in one word: No. IAF is not the USAF.


----------



## Gentelman

Mav3rick said:


> You do realize that F-16's Block 52 were delivered with AIM-120C7 before SD-10 was integrated into JFT right? I hope you understand where I am going with this! And please, for the love of God, go and read up on the ROSE upgrades on Mirages before you continue to make a fool of yourself.



Well again plzzzz provide source......
well name the BVR missiles used with Mairages???


----------



## notorious_eagle

Gentelman said:


> Well again plzzzz provide source......
> well name the BVR missiles used with Mairages???



Here you go:



pshamim said:


> I have a picture of this missile. It was modified by Pakistan. Picture clearly shows that it is a missile and not a bomb.
> 
> I did not realize that it was such a big mystery and no one has ever seen this missile before.
> 
> May be there is a reason that PAF has never released one. I Will check before posting it on the net. But until then, please be rest assured that it is a Fire & Forget BVRAAM with the reported range of 120km.
> 
> PGM and AAM look very different. When you see the picture, it will end all speculation.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3586&d=1246053197
http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3585&d=1246053171


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

notorious_eagle said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3586&d=1246053197
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3585&d=1246053171



the link is not working, btw which bvrm with 120 km range ?


----------



## notorious_eagle

Agnostic_Indian said:


> the link is not working, btw which bvrm with 120 km range ?



Go through this link and read Hon Parvez Shamim's posts. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm.html#post409169

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## MilSpec

Mav3rick said:


> Your last line (the link) sums it all up for those who have any idea, literally. After all those combat training sessions with practice starved RSAF Pilots that actually need training from IAF the IAF realized that their MKI's were in severe need of upgrades to be able to stand a chance against F-16's (perhaps even JFT's on JFT's turf). No wonder the sudden rush and massive investment to have the Jets upgraded as soon as possible. Not only that the trainings were conducted with Ameatur Singapore AF Pilots but also that the training sessions had no real war time scenario where a lot of other assets complement the adversary's Air Force both in the air and on the ground!



OK.... SU 30MKI seems to be ordinary aircraft in your opinion, not comparable to your f16's if FC1's. Please do underestimate this platform at your own risk.



Mav3rick said:


> It was perhaps these shortcomings that forced IAF to look away from Russia towards other countries for recent procurements, I mean had the MKI been the beast that it is claimed by fanboys and ameaturs it would have been more than a match for the Rafale too......Quite literally, IAF could have acquired 2x times more MKI's in the same amount of money that they are looking to spend on 126 Rafale, that would mean 250+ MKI Beasts for 126 Rafale! Either the MKI's not up to mark or the Indian decision makers are just as lame as many Indians that post here. Personally I believe the former to be true.



And jaguars mirages and harriers are of russian make. It seems your highness is unaware of India's relations with european comapanies in the past. as far as rafale is considered, it seems dear sir's logic is extremely marred when it comes to understanding the need for medium sized multi role aircraft. [/QUOTE]


Mav3rick said:


> I also, repeatedly, have to remind Indians how effective the Russian Jammers and Russian BVR Missile are so we can all but discount everything except actual dogfight that too unless the MKI has to face an AIM-120C7 from BVR......because then its Baby Bye Bye Bye......



I have to repeatedly remind pakistani members that their chinese munitions are nothing but cloned vympel designs which often outperform their american ordinance on the forum. You have no clue of what RVV-ae/sd/md can do. 




Mav3rick said:


> So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!



there are dedicated satellites too, but Phalcons it seems are useless as they can be bought down by "train borne stinger armed mujhideens" (TBSAM) according to the "think tonks" 

Perhaps it would be the best scenario where Pakistanis do underestimate IAF platforms like Su30MKI, Rafale's. Mig29UPG's, Mirage 2000-05MK2, and others. 

And if the general consensus is reached that SU30MKI is indeed a weak/poor platform which can be over run by FC1's F16's RPG's, Ak47's tt33's (take your pick!) mods might as well close this thread.



notorious_eagle said:


> Go through this link and read Hon Parvez Shamim's posts.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm.html#post409169



Glide bombs and guided bombs modified into a AAM, thats a new one.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## notorious_eagle

sandy_3126 said:


> Glide bombs and guided bombs modified into a AAM, thats a new one.



No No No

H2 and H4 are long range PGM. The BVRAAM is a totally different platform. R Darter was acquired by PAF from Denel with full TOT. After the acquisition, extensive work was done on it to improve its seeker, range, manoeuvrability. PAF has named it "Crescent Arrow". Its a totally different platform than the PGM's.


----------



## MilSpec

To get a little perspective of the munitions carried by the platform that the entire thread is aimed to countering. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/225352-iaf-missiles-ordinance-info-pool.html


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> War is dirty business kid and if you don't believe me google "The CIA saboteurs handbook" the edition used during WW II was recently declassified. I'm sure the latest edition is a million times nastier. Don't expect the enemy to fight fair and the best way to loose a fight is to go into it thinking you can't be beaten.



Each and every thing can be beaten. If you believe in quantum physics, there is even a possibility that I can throw a pebble from the ground which can take the F22 Raptor down. But that doesn't mean that IAF will recruit me to prepare for a scenario when US attacks India. The scenario you suggested (about using JF17 to put down our AWACS) was extremely unplausible, laughable in every respect.

Btw, this thread is about MKI



Mav3rick said:


> Actually NO!
> 
> BVR capable means the Jet can actually use BVR missiles for BVR engagements! But you can continue your rant!
> 
> 
> 
> That may not be possible because at maximum range the Phalcons will be Jammed by PAF AWACS and other ground based EW Assets. I mean the Phalcon would most definitely hold its own within Indian air space where it would be safe 150-200 km's inside IAF territory but to think that it's range would be maximum advertised range despite the adversary's AWACS Jamming the signals and successfully Jamming Phalcons the closeer the detection gets to PAF AWACS is not very smart.
> 
> Maybe if the Phalcons are 200km's deep within IAF territory then they may be able to look 100km's inside PAF air space. And so on.



Can your mirages use BVR missiles without having BVR missiles?


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> [url=http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/51b-proposed-in-sales-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/]$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistans F-16s[/url][/QUOTE]
> 
> I stand corrected. Wiki showed sales of C7 for PAF the last I checked.
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="DARKY, post: 3763777"]Only If that can get in your Head... read about those engagements before making ridiculous statements.[/QUOTE]
> 
> You serious? The net is full of engagements of US Jets and Russian Jets almost all around the world and stats clearly are in favour of US Jets.
> 
> [quote="Agnostic_Indian, post: 3763786"]then I would go with rafale[/QUOTE]
> 
> Hmm.....then the acquisition makes sense. But the way Indians create a hype about the MKI I thought most of you guys considered an MKI to be a more potent Air Superiority Fighter Plane then any other 4th Gen or 4.5th Gen Jet.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> I stand corrected. Wiki showed sales of C7 for PAF the last I checked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You serious? The net is full of engagements of US Jets and Russian Jets almost all around the world and stats clearly are in favour of US Jets.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.....then the acquisition makes sense. But the way Indians create a hype about the MKI I thought most of you guys considered an MKI to be a more potent Air Superiority Fighter Plane then any other 4th Gen or 4.5th Gen Jet.



rafale because it's latest and one of the top few 4.5 gen jets around. it has many advantages against current mki, such as spectra, low rcs, aesa radar super cruise etc. mki also got some advantage such as load, hard points, altitude, massive space to accommodate powerful radar and electronics etc. 

once mki upgrades happen then most of this rafale advantages would become void. Mki upgrade and new rafale will come at more or less same time.


----------



## Mav3rick

Storm Force said:


> Mav3rick
> 
> Your comment re SINGPORE PILOTS being amaretish is rich coming from a pakistani paf fan boy.
> 
> PAF can only dream about the level of technology and training that is avialble to singpore air force pilots. They have military budget per pilot that is ten fold of the average PAF pilot.
> 
> I suggest you check the AIRFORCE faxciklities and planes and hardware abnd compare. BELIEVE the singpore air force do not fly MIRAGE from the 1970S OR F7s as per average PAF pilot.
> 
> BY THE WAY IAF uses israeli jammers from ELTA NOT RUSSIAN.
> 
> CHECK YOUR FACTS.
> 
> and finally
> 
> since awarding RAFALE THE MMRCA contract india have signed for a further 42 su30mki . SO youir comments about MKI being deemed russian crap is also way off the mark
> 
> ANY MORE COMMENTS im all ears



As per technology, I can agree that RSAF may have that advantage but training.....well let's not kid ourselves who has more potent training. I mean they need training from IAF pilots speaks volumes of their level of training! Kinda speaks volumes of their training budget too as otherwise they would have been trained by the best (I mean those who are considered the best).

By the way I have stated numerous times that it is only the Israeli Jammers (that are not carried on all MKI's) that would actually matter in real war and not Russian Jammers. *Finally, please be aware that MMRCA contract has 'as yet' not been awarded!!!!* So the 42 MKI's are purchased before signing the MMRCA contract!


----------



## Mav3rick

sandy_3126 said:


> OK.... SU 30MKI seems to be ordinary aircraft in your opinion, not comparable to your f16's if FC1's. Please do underestimate this platform at your own risk.



Not really, the MKI has to be a superb Fighter most likely on par with F-16 B52. But it will have to fight PAF where it will not have any SAM or AWACS cover whereas PAF will have not only that but ground based EW assets as well. This may tild the advantage in favour of PAF.





sandy_3126 said:


> And jaguars mirages and harriers are of russian make. It seems your highness is unaware of India's relations with european comapanies in the past. as far as rafale is considered, it seems dear sir's logic is extremely marred when it comes to understanding the need for medium sized multi role aircraft.



You are merely proving my point further, the IAF had tried Mirages and was aware how good non Russian technology was. But that's just my take on things. However, you might be able to explain the need for MMRCA.





sandy_3126 said:


> I have to repeatedly remind pakistani members that their chinese munitions are nothing but cloned vympel designs which often outperform their american ordinance on the forum. You have no clue of what RVV-ae/sd/md can do.



Outperform American Munitions? Hardly!

And China does not merely 'clone', it actually produces more advanced 'versions'.





sandy_3126 said:


> there are dedicated satellites too, but Phalcons it seems are useless as they can be bought down by "train borne stinger armed mujhideens" (TBSAM) according to the "think tonks"
> 
> Perhaps it would be the best scenario where Pakistanis do underestimate IAF platforms like Su30MKI, Rafale's. Mig29UPG's, Mirage 2000-05MK2, and others.
> 
> And if the general consensus is reached that SU30MKI is indeed a weak/poor platform which can be over run by FC1's F16's RPG's, Ak47's tt33's (take your pick!) mods might as well close this thread.



This is what I had written:

"So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!"

Now look at your response.



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Can your mirages use BVR missiles without having BVR missiles?



How does anybody know whether the Mirages were armed with BVR or not? I mean why upgrade them with a BVR capable radar if they were never going to use a BVR? But why the fuss, the Mirages can use a BVR today right?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notorious_eagle

sandy_3126 said:


> OK.... SU 30MKI seems to be ordinary aircraft in your opinion, not comparable to your f16's if FC1's. Please do underestimate this platform at your own risk.



No one on the Pakistani side believes that SU30MKI is an ordinary aircraft. It is a very well oiled machine, a very good one if i might add. But it is also not 'God's Gift to Aviation' as some of your fellow brethren's have been advocating. It is not an aircraft without weaknesses that cannot be exploited, i guess this is the point we Pakistani's are trying to send but it is being stubbornly refuted by Indian members whom seem to be under the spell that MKI is the best fighter aircraft ever built. 



sandy_3126 said:


> I have to repeatedly remind pakistani members that their chinese munitions are nothing but cloned vympel designs which often outperform their american ordinance on the forum. You have no clue of what RVV-ae/sd/md can do.



I agree, initially a lot of the Chinese tech were clones of Russian tech. But with the rapid modernization of Chinese Forces and billions of dollars invested in R&D, the Chinese have been able to come up with tech that exceeds the Russian in some aspects, J11B is a good example. The Chinese are churning out hundreds and thousands of engineers every year and investing billions, do you honestly think Russia can keep up for long even with Indian financing? Its only a matter of time before the Chinese tech will exceed Russian or even European, they simply cannot compete. The European defence industry is starting to stagnate due to budget cuts in Europe, that is why you can see they are increasingly partnering up with American firms and focusing on small and niche products as they cannot find the funding from their Home Governments. 



sandy_3126 said:


> there are dedicated satellites too, but Phalcons it seems are useless as they can be bought down by "train borne stinger armed mujhideens" (TBSAM) according to the "think tonks"



Calm down. But you cannot deny the fact that both sides will not employ platoons of specialized trained commandos whom will try to operate behind the enemy lines with the sole purpose of destroying valuable assets. I have no doubt in my mind that specialized Indian commandos will try to get behind enemy lines to try and eliminate Pakistani strategic assets. 



sandy_3126 said:


> Perhaps it would be the best scenario where Pakistanis do underestimate IAF platforms like Su30MKI, Rafale's. Mig29UPG's, Mirage 2000-05MK2, and others.



I can assure you that PAF is not underestimating these assets. IAF is one formidable foe and certainly the strongest force in the region. 



sandy_3126 said:


> And if the general consensus is reached that SU30MKI is indeed a weak/poor platform which can be over run by FC1's F16's RPG's, Ak47's tt33's (take your pick!) mods might as well close this thread.



Nops, this is a consensus that has been reached by you. We respect the SU30MKI, its an awesome machine but not invincible as Indian members are trying to make it out to be.



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Can your mirages use BVR missiles without having BVR missiles?



Read post 1372 and 1370. R Darter has been in PAF service for quite some time now.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Mav3rick

Agnostic_Indian said:


> rafale because it's latest and one of the top few 4.5 gen jets around. it has many advantages against current mki, such as spectra, low rcs, aesa radar super cruise etc. mki also got some advantage such as load, hard points, altitude, massive space to accommodate powerful radar and electronics etc.
> 
> once mki upgrades happen then most of this rafale advantages would become void. Mki upgrade and new rafale will come at more or less same time.



But then wasn't it cheaper to simply upgrade the MKI's and purchase 2x more upgraded MKI's if the advantages of Rafale are lost post MKI upgrade? I mean IAF may have been able to procure 250+ Super MKI's for the same amount of money and if the Rafale then holds no advantage then why buy Rafale?

Or is it a lot to do with politics and attempts to derive PAF of French avionics/radars etc.?


----------



## nair

Ok guys chill.... Sukhoi MKI is not as good as F16.... Agreed... Now lets move on.... I dono why indians are trying hard to proov MKI is a better aircraft.... If Pakistan is happy and estimate that sukhoi is not a greatone you should be happy about it... and as we all know.... We will never know till it is been used.....so till then... Lets agree with pakistani friends that it is not a worth an aircraft.... chillll just chillll...


----------



## MilSpec

Mav3rick said:


> Not really, the MKI has to be a superb Fighter most likely on par with F-16 B52. But it will have to fight PAF where it will not have any SAM or AWACS cover whereas PAF will have not only that but ground based EW assets as well. This may tild the advantage in favour of PAF.



Well in your opinion where will be the first strikes on, Command and control centeres of pakistan or horse stables ? 




> You are merely proving my point further, the IAF had tried Mirages and was aware how good non Russian technology was. But that's just my take on things. However, you might be able to explain the need for MMRCA.


IAF classifies MKI as an Air dominance air craft. With a better bank balance, IAF has decided to transition from it's point defence fighter Mig 21 to a mix of Lmrca (LCA MK2) and MMRCA (Rafale). It brings additional power projection capabilities.



> Outperform American Munitions? Hardly!
> 
> And China does not merely 'clone', it actually produces more advanced 'versions'.


Sure why not. It's your belief




> This is what I had written:
> 
> "So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!"
> 
> Now look at your response.


Whats the point of objective responses when you are programmed to believe mujhideens carrying stingers on passenger bogies of rajdhani express are going to bring down phalcons. Phalcons that see 400 Sq Kms, for 2 m2 targets and upto 600 m2 for bigger targets (ahem.. eriye or chinese awacs) will some how have to go inside pak airspace?


and if you were looking for an objective response after all: there you go 



sandy_3126 said:


> Dear members,
> 
> I would like to present my views on this thread which seems to have gathered a lot of momentum. I will not be able to go into critical data on an open forum. I have been following aviation posts and have certain perspective that I would like to present to remove the a few misconceptions regarding the SU30 MKI.I have worked for HAL nasik division and have interacted with quite a few CTP&#8217;s to be in a decent position to give you a general perspective on the SU30MKI and its subsystems.
> 
> *SU 30 MKI Airframe:* MKI&#8217;s airframe is very similar to Russian base model irrespective of what others claim. It differs slightly on the load requirements that were presented to the Russians during the development. I left HAL 4 yrs ago, back then there were plans to use domestic material instead of Russian with same or better physical characteristics which is not necessarily an improvement performance wise but a cost saving measure.
> 
> *Radar:* PESA BARS N011 Bars is the biggest ace up IAF&#8217;s sleeve, without divulging into the details detecting range, I can very confidently say that this radar has better resolution, noise cancellation and detection range than Captor and RBE2 hands down. Nothing in the subcontinent can come close to this radar today. I am not fully aware of Chinese subsystems, but this was the take of two Russian CTP&#8217;s 4 years ago. I don&#8217;t think PAF&#8217;s jf 17 radar is as good, but that&#8217;s my perspective and I could be wrong.
> SU 30 MKI another advantage it can function as airborne command post and has excellent ability to function as such due to the two person crew and its radar.
> 
> *Avionics:* Additional subsystems like the Israeli HUD, OLS 30, laser/infrared hybrid IRST or also called optical laser tracker is very handy device. IAF and USAF goes gaga over the litening pod, it is as good as it gets.
> 
> *Upgrades:* have been discussed to death, so won&#8217;t go there again
> 
> *Misconception on this forum about MKI*
> 
> Airshow aircraft
> 
> There is a general American sentiment of flanker that it is a airshow aircraft which has permeated especially in Pakistani members here. Although the thrust vectoring is something I wouldn&#8217;t credit in WVR, without its pucgahevs and tail slides, its still a very high tvr and is a very nimble and agile dogfighter. Its weapons loadout gives immense amount of firepower in WVR conflict with its inherent disadvantage being size.
> 
> Lets not forget a fact that SU 30 MKI despite its airshow maneuvers is an excellent high speed performer. Its avionics, radar and weapons load out makes it a deadly BVR platform.
> 
> MKI is a huge blip on the radar waiting to be shot down
> 
> To begin with I am not a big believer in BVR combat to the ranges that people think it is effective. BVR regime is most effective to half the radar tracking range sometimes even less. Jammers awacs , Self protection suites have equally evolved as have the BVR missiles. MKI is RCS is not much different from that of a F15SE and I don&#8217;t hear the American complain about it. Indian pilots that I have interacted with will never say anything against their plane , but from what I have heard from the Russian ctp&#8217;s SU27 and su30 are not straight up traditional A2A packages. The A2A combat philosophy is more of simultaneous staggered formations entering tactical area to obtain maximum results . Su 30 MkI is not a lone gun slinger which will go up and bring down an aircraft with every pull of the trigger as some of my fellow countrymen here believe.
> 
> *Pakistan&#8217;s counter to SU30 MKI.*
> 
> Theoretically you can bring down any aircraft with from fro any platform that PAF fields. Hitting a MKI is not miracle and is possible by almost every platform, But in my honest opinion the most effective platform that counters the threat of MKI&#8217;s firepower and range is PAF&#8217;s SAAB ERIEYE. Awacs platform has given the capability to PAF to detec MKI, SMT, UPG, M2k even a rustom that flies into Pakistani airspace and device a counter to thwart the treat. Hence I wouldn&#8217;t be rushing to order f22&#8217;s as of yet, PAF is very well prepared to faceoff IAF successfully at the present movement. SAAB erieye and the chiniese awacs platform will provide a stiff counter to whatever IAF throws at them.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## dbc

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Each and every thing can be beaten. If you believe in quantum physics, there is even a possibility that I can throw a pebble from the ground which can take the F22 Raptor down. But that doesn't mean that IAF will recruit me to prepare for a scenario when US attacks India. The scenario you suggested (about using JF17 to put down our AWACS) *was extremely unplausible, laughable in every respect*.



Listen kid I told you before this tactic has been employed successfully by the Israeli's, the US, the Swedes and the Japanese.
As a matter of fact an Indian Air Force Mirage pilot and squadron leader made the same suggestion for a AWACS busting mission. The only difference between what I suggested and what he proposed is the armament since the IAF Mirage does not have anti-radiation missile he proposed the use of BVR missiles and since the Mirage does not have short take off capability he proposed following low flying fighters on a ground strike mission popping up to take a BVR shot once beyond the slant range of the airborne radar.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Mav3rick said:


> But then wasn't it cheaper to simply upgrade the MKI's and purchase 2x more upgraded MKI's if the advantages of Rafale are lost post MKI upgrade? I mean IAF may have been able to procure 250+ Super MKI's for the same amount of money and if the Rafale then holds no advantage then why buy Rafale?
> 
> Or is it a lot to do with politics and attempts to derive PAF of French avionics/radars etc.?



I said most of the advantages not all, such as rcs, spectra+mica combo etc would still be an advantage exact comparison is possible only when the mki upgrade details are revealed. rafale is a multi role fighter, designed for that from scratch and it's medium weight category(mki is heavy class air superiority fighter upgraded into strike fighter , lca is light weight class ) jack of all trades.Every air force needs different class fighters, otherwise every country would have had a single type fighter jet..

it's like cricket you need specialist bowler , specialist batsman as well as all rounders too..rafale is our all rounder.


----------



## notorious_eagle

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> *Hello and a happy a new year to you too.I'm Kathy's husband, Kathy's busy with our beautiful baby girl.* I sometimes log in using her account. PAF know they don't have the territorial depth to protect their airborne radar and they train to be almost as effective without it. As for what the Phalcon can see, the problem is the Phalcon sees too much. I admit I don't know much about the Phalcon but I assume it is as good or better than the USAF E3.



Heartiest felicitations for this wonderful news and a pleasure to meet your acquaintance Good Sir. Please convey our regards and felicitations to DBC whom is one of our most esteemed members. 

Belated Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## MilSpec

nair said:


> Ok guys chill.... Sukhoi MKI is not as good as F16.... Agreed... Now lets move on.... I dono why indians are trying hard to proov MKI is a better aircraft.... If Pakistan is happy and estimate that sukhoi is not a greatone you should be happy about it... and as we all know.... We will never know till it is been used.....so till then... Lets agree with pakistani friends that it is not a worth an aircraft.... chillll just chillll...



Do you see a thread dedicated to countering F16's?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bang Galore

notorious_eagle said:


> No one on the Pakistani side believes that SU30MKI is an ordinary aircraft. It is a very well oiled machine, a very good one if i might add. *But it is also not 'God's Gift to Aviation' as some of your fellow brethren's have been advocating. *



 I agree.


----------



## Gentelman

notorious_eagle said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3586&d=1246053197
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3585&d=1246053171



not working...
bt i suppose u r counting H-2 and H-4....
well these r state secrets and we don't even know with proofs wether these r BVR Missiles or BVR bombs....
soo better don't count them......
well as far as i know these r bombs according to PAF officials and i never read if PAF was BVR capable...
well BVR capability of block 52 is a bonus....
and PAF was not expecting them as their bird...
and u can't attack with it outside of PAF airspace without uncle sam permission....
thats why i counted JF 17 as 1st BVR platform...
well i dont know if F 16 block 50 was delivered 1st of JF 17.....
its obvious pak got BVR from americans for F 16 block 50 and all this happened after arrival of these birts soo i suppose JF 17 was 1st one in PAF....
well yep u were right...
H 4 is bvr missile in PAF service....
it was supposed to be used on mairages bt dont have any info on it...
its tests were conducted on mairages....
Developed by NESCOM 120km range.......
resemblance to SA A Darter i suppose...


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> I stand corrected. Wiki showed sales of C7 for PAF the last I checked.





> In early 2006 the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) ordered 500 *AIM-120C-5* AMRAAM missiles as part of a $650 million F-16 ammunition deal to equip the PAF's F-16C/D Block 52+ and F-16A/B MLU fighters



AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One thing is sure you cannot be wrong... Its has generally been the case with your types.





Mav3rick said:


> You serious? The net is full of engagements of US Jets and Russian Jets almost all around the world and stats clearly are in favour of US Jets.



As assumed earlier and rightly so... It goes over your Head... No point in explaining.


----------



## danger007

notorious_eagle said:


> Not at all, war is a very dirty and tricky business as DOB pointed out. Expect both sides to employ dirty techniques to harass the enemy. To prevent something like this, you would need Neighbourhood Community Watch pretty much all around the country similar to what the Israelis have.
> 
> 
> 
> To put it in one word: No. IAF is not the USAF.



So your mean only PAF have EW assets and awacs block IAF awacs? lol funny argument think tank..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

sandy_3126 said:


> Whats the point of objective responses when you are programmed to believe mujhideens carrying stingers on passenger bogies of* rajdhani express* are going to bring down phalcons. Phalcons that see 400 Sq Kms, for 2 m2 targets and upto 600 m2 for bigger targets (ahem.. eriye or chinese awacs) will some how have to go inside pak airspace?



Rajdhani express was funny... 

BTW.. Its a radius of 400Km for 2m^2 targets... Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace... I have not yet gone into power radiated or antenna size or processors or etc..etc.. Just making a rough estimation on the number of TRMM and their working band gives the idea as to how pun the Pakistani AEW&C are against Phalcons of IAF.

Besides IAF would have AWACS cover in dual band with DRDO Emb-145 AEW&C aircraft providing the coverage in S-band.. along with Phalcons in L-band.. and If we add the long range radar capabilities of Su30MKI[X-band]... It becomes a total coverage in triple bands... a coverage even a stealth planes would like to stay away from.



danger007 said:


> So your mean only PAF have EW assets and awacs block IAF awacs? lol funny argument think tank..



PAF AEW&C cannot perform active/offensive jamming It only has ECM to defend itself.... due to the power limitations and its small size... while an AWACS like Phalcon can perform additional duties like communication links jamming or Signal jamming all the while providing coordinates for enemy aircrafts and ground vehicles[upto certain distance] simultaneously.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## notorious_eagle

danger007 said:


> So your mean only PAF have EW assets and awacs block IAF awacs? lol funny argument think tank..



Where did i say that? How did you interpret that? Lets look at what you said:



danger007 said:


> doesn't our awacs and EW assets block PAF awacs?



What i can interpret is that you are asking whether your EW or AWACS can jam PAF AWACS. I replied with a 'No'. So pray tell me, how did you come up with the conclusion that i stated that PAF assets could jam IAF EW and AWACS? If you are having a hard time communicating in English, please let me know i will switch to Hindi.


----------



## danger007

@notorious_eagle: read mav3rick post number 1355.. I guess you have problem with english... are you might closed your eyes.


----------



## GURU DUTT

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> War is dirty business kid and if you don't believe me google "The CIA saboteurs handbook" the edition used during WW II was recently declassified. I'm sure the latest edition is a million times nastier. Don't expect the enemy to fight fair and the best way to loose a fight is to go into it thinking you can't be beaten.



well nice to have you here sir but do you think indians who burned there fingers in 1965 and 1971 with PAF and there croonies to do sabotage work will be sleeping this time unlike pakitan we sir are not so soft to keep people roaming around with guns and after mumbai be rest assured we have taken evry sceanario into account let me tell you we have a dedicated force just to do this job and about your thoughts about pakitanies sending there Super duper JF17 + F 16 to wipe off owr Air defences well sir i guess you must be having sme knowledge about greenpine radars and other isreali and french stuff + ever heared of SPYDER sam systems and let me assure u they are just the tip of the ice berg here and as for Phalcon well sir you are quite able yourself and fave an idea about its real range dont you ? SIR

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> One thing is sure you cannot be wrong... Its has generally been the case with your types.



If only you had been smart enough to read the last modification date.

*"This page was last modified on 28 December 2012 at 07:44."*

I don't give a lot of weight to Wiki usually and most likely I must have ignored the C7 thing when I read it before it was 'corrected'. Anyway this is the best thing about me, I am man enough to say that I am corrected when I am instead of continued nonsense ranting like you. You can continue your rant because we all know the ratio of downed Jets in US/Russian Jets fights.


----------



## AUSTERLITZ

1 question,what is PAF's counter to the r-73 archer off boresight missile in dogfights.Amplified when combined with TVC,but lets keep tvc out.


----------



## trident2010

Mav3rick said:


> That may not be possible because at maximum range the Phalcons will be Jammed by PAF AWACS and other ground based EW Assets. I mean the Phalcon would most definitely hold its own within Indian air space where it would be safe 150-200 km's inside IAF territory but to think that it's range would be maximum advertised range despite the adversary's AWACS Jamming the signals and successfully Jamming Phalcons the closeer the detection gets to PAF AWACS is not very smart.
> Maybe if the Phalcons are 200km's deep within IAF territory then they may be able to look 100km's inside PAF air space. And so on.



Yes I agree there will be counter measured such as jamming or creating dummy EM noise. I found a pic showing the specifications of the MKI radar in the presence of natural / organised counter measures. Still its detection range is 135 km air to air. Which is more than enough to fire a volley of long range BVR's to the enemy formations. 

https://e68a5715-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...GIg0Sfop5M-9nfYjEMuv6YtaaicASw&attredirects=1


----------



## Skull and Bones

DARKY said:


> AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> One thing is sure you cannot be wrong... Its has generally been the case with your types.
> 
> As assumed earlier and rightly so... It goes over your Head... No point in explaining.





> Raytheon Co., Tucson, Ariz., is being awarded a $269,646,834 firm-fixed-price contract modification. *This action is exercising an option to purchase 500 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) Air Vehicles (AAVs) Air Intercept Missile (AIM) &#8211; 120C-5 missiles and rehost. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan 100%.* At this time, total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete April 2011. Headquarters Medium Range Missile Systems Group, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., is the contracting activity (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028).



Defense.gov: Contracts for Friday, November 17, 2006

Directly from US department of Defense.


----------



## GURU DUTT

DARKY said:


> Rajdhani express was funny...
> *
> BTW.. Its a radius of 400Km for 2m^2 targets... Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace... I have not yet gone into power radiated or antenna size or processors or etc..etc.. Just making a rough estimation on the number of TRMM and their working band gives the idea as to how pun the Pakistani AEW&C are against Phalcons of IAF.*
> 
> Besides IAF would have AWACS cover in dual band with DRDO Emb-145 AEW&C aircraft providing the coverage in S-band.. along with Phalcons in L-band.. and If we add the long range radar capabilities of Su30MKI[X-band]... It becomes a total coverage in triple bands... a coverage even a stealth planes would like to stay away from.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF AEW&C cannot perform active/offensive jamming It only has ECM to defend itself.... due to the power limitations and its small size... while an AWACS like Phalcon can perform additional duties like communication links jamming or Signal jamming all the while providing coordinates for enemy aircrafts and ground vehicles[upto certain distance] simultaneously.



well i guess all those fan boys who beleave pakistan can block or jam Phalcons should read it and think what happens when there AWACS takes of from base to intercept owrs well guess what we already have an idea about where it is and already will be sending a bunch of MKI's with a few Novotar 100 and some other BVR's to take a good care of pakistans AWACS now under such circumstances will pakistani AWACS will ever be close to border by say at least 100 odd miles as the range of Novotar is atleast 200 KM 

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...CcZY6kjCxYlxBYW7NthMw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk

plus green pine and other such radars 

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...84GICA&usg=AFQjCNHCcCiLC1eUC2PTIIEbrusj3cI62w
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swordfish_Long_Range_Tracking_Radar

now look at its range + the other stuff we are having not to meation all the AA batteries we have


----------



## dbc

DARKY said:


> PAF AEW&C cannot perform active/offensive jamming It only has ECM to defend itself.... due to the power limitations and its small size... while an AWACS like Phalcon can perform additional duties like communication links jamming or Signal jamming all the while providing coordinates for enemy aircrafts and ground vehicles[upto certain distance] simultaneously.



I haven't heard of an air borne early warning system being used for jamming. The Phalcon may have some directional jamming capability assuming it has dedicated antenna pointed away from its main radar. Then again the jammer has to get a lot closer to the hostile emitter to be of any use.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## GURU DUTT

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I haven't heard of an air borne early warning system being used for jamming. The Phalcon may have some directional jamming capability assuming it has dedicated antenna pointed away from its main radar. *Then again the jammer has to get a lot closer to the hostile emitter to be of any use*.



Very true sir but tell us who got the bigger and better and more power ful platform here ......

*Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace...*

and if it ever comes to such a sceanario who you think is bettr placed to give its opponent a bloody nose

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

sandy_3126 said:


> Well in your opinion where will be the first strikes on, Command and control centeres of pakistan or horse stables ?



PAF AWACS will most likely be at the the maximum range from Indian border (it's my guess that they may be as far as 200km's away). And ground based EW assets are all mobile. It would be very hard for IAF to wipe these off.





sandy_3126 said:


> Whats the point of objective responses when you are programmed to believe mujhideens carrying stingers on passenger bogies of rajdhani express are going to bring down phalcons. Phalcons that see 400 Sq Kms, for 2 m2 targets and upto 600 m2 for bigger targets (ahem.. eriye or chinese awacs) will some how have to go inside pak airspace?



Are you quoting me on the Stinger thingy? Do you wanna make sure that I said it? In any case, it was a few well trained commandoes that infiltrated PAF bases and damaged valuable assets, why cannot the same happen to IAF?

Phalcon will not have to cross over the border but to be perfectly safe lets assume that it will operate 200km's inside IAF air space to be at a maximum distance from the PAF standoff ARM missiles. That leaves it about 200km's range to detect fighter sized A/C, right? Similarly PAF AWACS will be roughly 200km's inside PAF airspace but will be covering 150km's deep inside IAF territory.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## GURU DUTT

Mav3rick said:


> PAF AWACS will most likely be at the the maximum range from Indian border (it's my guess that they may be as far as 200km's away). And ground based EW assets are all mobile. It would be very hard for IAF to wipe these off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you quoting me on the Stinger thingy? Do you wanna make sure that I said it? In any case,* it was a few well trained commandoes that infiltrated PAF bases and damaged valuable assets, why cannot the same happen to IAF?*
> 
> Phalcon will not have to cross over the border but to be perfectly safe lets assume that it will operate 200km's inside IAF air space to be at a maximum distance from the PAF standoff ARM missiles. That leaves it about 200km's range to detect fighter sized A/C, right? Similarly PAF AWACS will be roughly 200km's inside PAF airspace but will be covering 150km's deep inside IAF territory.



about the first part sir with all deu respect to PA well sir here in India the ARMY is accountable and takes it job very serousli and does not deviates from its real job to run petrol pumps and marige hall & baekeries as in some countries + we have a very alaborate system of poliecing both for civilian and ARMED forces + we have a very dedicated task force to handle such Sabotage as we got its taste way back in 1965 & 1971 + ever heared of Garud commandoes and other asociated Special forces
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...eW74FI&usg=AFQjCNH4HcmvNRsFpe2xfRvtN10z8xn-wQ



and about the second part 

*Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace...*

now kindli do your maths and tell who got the better and bigger platform here SIR

+ We (IAF) have some systems to keep you way beyond say 150 kms because OWR MKI's have these aswell 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_K-100

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Mav3rick

GURU DUTT said:


> about the first part sir with all deu respect to PA well sir here in India the ARMY is accountable and takes it job very serousli and does not deviates from its real job to run petrol pumps and marige hall & baekeries as in some countries + we have a very alaborate system of poliecing both for civilian and ARMED forces + we have a very dedicated task force to handle such Sabotage as we got its taste way back in 1965 & 1971 + ever heared of Garud commandoes and other asociated Special forces
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...eW74FI&usg=AFQjCNH4HcmvNRsFpe2xfRvtN10z8xn-wQ
> 
> 
> 
> and about the second part
> 
> *Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace...*
> 
> now kindli do your maths and tell who got the better and bigger platform here SIR
> 
> + We (IAF) have some systems to keep you way beyond say 150 kms because OWR MKI's have these aswell
> 
> Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Kindly stop repeating the same posted message again and again. No matter how many TRM's Phalcon has, it can still only look as far as 450km's and Erieye too can see as far as 450km's so what's the big deal here? The only big deal is that PAF jets have much smaller RCS then IAF Jets hence smaller chance of being picked up at range over 300km's.


----------



## Pfpilot

sandy_3126 said:


> *OK.... SU 30MKI seems to be ordinary aircraft in your opinion, not comparable to your f16's if FC1's. Please do underestimate this platform at your own risk.*
> 
> 
> 
> And jaguars mirages and harriers are of russian make. It seems your highness is unaware of India's relations with european comapanies in the past. as far as rafale is considered, it seems dear sir's logic is extremely marred when it comes to understanding the need for medium sized multi role aircraft.
> 
> 
> *I have to repeatedly remind pakistani members that their chinese munitions are nothing but cloned vympel designs which often outperform their american ordinance on the forum. You have no clue of what RVV-ae/sd/md can do.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> there are dedicated satellites too, but Phalcons it seems are useless as they can be bought down by "train borne stinger armed mujhideens" (TBSAM) according to the "think tonks"
> 
> *Perhaps it would be the best scenario where Pakistanis do underestimate IAF platforms like Su30MKI, Rafale's. Mig29UPG's, Mirage 2000-05MK2, and others. *
> 
> And if the general consensus is reached that SU30MKI is indeed a weak/poor platform which can be over run by FC1's F16's RPG's, Ak47's tt33's (take your pick!) mods might as well close this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Glide bombs and guided bombs modified into a AAM, thats a new one.



With all due respect, I think you fell into your own trap there. While your thorough knowledge of the Indian armed forces gives you great insight into the capabilities of the IAF, it also creates a bias against systems that aren't as well understood. The IAF capability isn't, and shouldn't be, underestimated. But while you proclaimed that, you just as easily underestimated the capabilities of Chinese missiles based on potentially outdated information. The Chinese military machine, much like the Indian economic machine, is moving at a pace so fast that judging it's capabilities on information even a couple of years prior is folly. 

You may be right in the end and the Russian munitions may end up proving superior, but to claim that as an absolute truth, in turn, greatly underestimates the capabilities of the Chinese and PAF. It is completely possible that a Chinese insider viewing this thread may feel that Chinese BVR platforms are superior to and separate developments from anything the Russians have produced; he would be limited by the same type of bias you displayed in this post. The Russians and Chinese have much in overlapping technology at this point and while I agree that a more mature Russian industry is superior, I don't think it is fair for you to claim that we have no idea what the RVV-ae/sd/md can do, when you may have no idea what the sd-10b and its successors can do.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GURU DUTT

Mav3rick said:


> Kindly stop repeating the same posted message again and again. No matter how many TRM's Phalcon has, it can still only look as far as 450km's and Erieye too can see as far as 450km's so what's the big deal here? The only big deal is that PAF jets have much smaller RCS then IAF Jets hence smaller chance of being picked up at range over 300km's.



he he he sirji looking is different and looking and tracking multiple targets in a very intense electronik war sceanario is a diff game altogether yes you can look at us from that far but the question is how you will utilize it and how you stop your opponent who is bigger and better than you almost twice if not more + last i read sme where that the biggest diff between pakistni awacs and indian Phalcon is that Pakistani awacs has to beam every message first to ground control and then its first edited & then transmitted to the fighting force where as Phalcon transmitts and edits on its own twice as fast as pakistani awacs & deu to indian sats and other net centrik capabilities it gives a massive advantage to owr fighting force in real terms coupled by owr offensive capabilities against your assaets and the already very capable SU30MKI's radar and load carrying capacity and its sheer numbers i dont think your awacs will do any thing substantial as for backup already we will have a few Greenpines helping us hope u get the picture SIR

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

GURU DUTT said:


> about the first part sir with all deu respect to PA well sir here in India the ARMY is accountable and takes it job very serousli and does not deviates from its real job to run petrol pumps and marige hall & baekeries as in some countries + we have a very alaborate system of poliecing both for civilian and ARMED forces + we have a very dedicated task force to handle such Sabotage as we got its taste way back in 1965 & 1971 + ever heared of Garud commandoes and other asociated Special forces
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...eW74FI&usg=AFQjCNH4HcmvNRsFpe2xfRvtN10z8xn-wQ
> 
> 
> 
> and about the second part
> 
> *Phalcons contain over 600 TRMMs that too working in L-band which provides better resolution for low RCS targets at much longer ranges as compared to S-band Ere-eye which has a total of 192 TRMMs... out of which only 96 would be used for tracking and locating targets due to the antenna design.. while a Phalcon would use about/over 400 TRMMs radiating any time full power to see deep inside Pakistani airspace...*
> 
> now kindli do your maths and tell who got the better and bigger platform here SIR
> 
> + We (IAF) have some systems to keep you way beyond say 150 kms because OWR MKI's have these aswell
> 
> Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




last time I read, One sortie of Phalcon AWAC generates 8-10 hour of maintenance. Do you think in war time, Phalcon can operate at it's peak for such long due to heating issues and the maintenance they have to done in war time?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstarIN

mafiya said:


> last time I read, One sortie of Phalcon AWAC generates 8-10 hour of maintenance. Do you think in war time, Phalcon can operate at it's peak for such long due to heating issues and the maintenance they have to done in war time?



As explained, i think gambit, regarding this 1 hour fly 45 hour maintenance stuff. It is not like you fly 1 hour and take break 35 hrs. In war time, it can perform continiously. No worries...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

mafiya said:


> last time I read, One sortie of Phalcon AWAC generates 8-10 hour of maintenance. Do you think in war time, Phalcon can operate at it's peak for such long due to heating issues and the maintenance they have to done in war time?



phalcon can be refueled in mid air erieye can't do it.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

SO PAF TACTICS of overcoming the MKI is to sit on the defensive in their own back yard under cover of their AWACS & GCC & sam COVER...

Seems to me your paf has HANDED THE IAF the intiative to conduct the war at their desired location/targets and their desired speed & intensity.

YOUR PAF retaliation tactic of cruise missle strrikes is very flawed and very HIT & MISS. 

NO ONE EVER ACHIEVD AIR SUPERIORITY USING BALLISTIC MISSLES ONLY .

bit like saddam hussains tactics with his SCUDS proved to be rubbish doctrine

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

Storm Force said:


> SO PAF TACTICS of overcoming the MKI is to sit on the defensive in their own back yard under cover of their AWACS & GCC & sam COVER...
> 
> Seems to me your paf has HANDED THE IAF the intiative to conduct the war at their desired location/targets and their desired speed & intensity.
> 
> *YOUR PAF retaliation tactic of cruise missle strrikes is very flawed and very HIT & MISS.
> 
> NO ONE EVER ACHIEVD AIR SUPERIORITY USING BALLISTIC MISSLES ONLY .
> 
> bit like saddam hussains tactics with his SCUDS proved to be rubbish doctrine*



Sometimes i like to hit my head in wall... COmpare how Guidance systems of BM has evolved now since Saddam Era and how in Libyan Conflict, US used tomahawk to destroy the Air defenses of Libyan forces. If cruise missiles were flawed or hit or miss we would have seen it in Libyan or Gulf War 2 conflicts. Instead of just generalizing, try to bring concrete data to support your BS claim that cruise missiles are flawed or very hit and miss in south asian scenario. Plus with the emergence of ALCM and Upgraded Ballistic Missile Shaheen 1 A. All indian airbases are very much unsecured.!

The development of cruise missiles were major game changer. It allowed PA and PAF to conduct precision strikes without sending larke strike packages of PAF and thus obtaining the offensive edge and allowed them to remain concentrated in defensive posture at home

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## danger007

In this thread and remaining IAF or MKI related threads i only learned some points...
1. mav3rick said PAF do have ground EW assets and Awacs to Jam the IAF awacs.. and some other member said IAF don't have EW assets to Jam the PAF awacs..
2. and some other members (Pakistani) said PAF role will be purely defensive, so it hold the home advantage (AWACS+SAM's +Radars+others)... so you guys think IAF will be aggressor... In that case IAF primary aim is to destroy your ground assets, that is why Super su-30mki and brahmos Integration.
3. F-16 will give upper hand for PAF. how many F-16 blk 52 is with PAF? how many will stay in reserve command?
4. some other member said we have large area to defend... where as pakistan do have small area to defend.. we got problem with 2 countries... and we do have strategic bases for them. we are happy to say that we surrounded three sides with ocean.... you don't have long legs to attack us deep inside our territory...

Final conclusion is India will be aggressor so MKI is not useful against PAF because PAF have sam's,awacs, ew ,F-16,JF-17 holds advantage because of it's RCS is lower than MKI...
@sancho, @Storm Force, and other Indian members.. please guys how many days you will argue like this.. come to one conclusion...


----------



## Storm Force

Tommahawk

Cruise missles are guided by GPS satalites. 

Stop comparing a multi billion dollar tommahawk cruise missle with FIRE AND FORGET programme costing a few million dollars. 

If indian bases are unsecured I SUGGEST PAF BASES are comparitvely NAKED . The reason PAF bases are NAKED you people have invested virtually zero on long range sam cover. YOUR RELYING ON man pads with ranges of 4km .

I mean common on man a few terrirsts blew your AWACS up in your own city airfield...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

Storm Force said:


> Tommahawk
> 
> Cruise missles are guided by GPS satalites.
> 
> *Stop comparing a multi billion dollar tommahawk cruise missle with FIRE AND FORGET programme costing a few million dollars.*
> 
> If indian bases are unsecured I SUGGEST PAF BASES are comparitvely NAKED . The reason PAF bases are NAKED you people have invested virtually zero on long range sam cover. YOUR RELYING ON man pads with ranges of 4km .
> 
> I mean common on man a few terrirsts blew your AWACS up in your own city airfield...



The bolded part showed your desperataion and how little you knew about babur F&F capability and how little you knew about it's linkup to Beidou navigation system Plus GPS is needed if you want CEP of less than <5 M. All the navigation systems in Babur CM i.e INS, DSMAC and TERCOM are their for a purpose Smarty pants and in 2012 test, babur CEP was calculated 2 meter, go read up BABUR info thread to really lighten your brain. If CM were to be guided by GPS. than INS would have been sufficient. You really need to update yourself about the things going around you

Rest of your post is purely a hysterical rants not worth responding because you were owned in previous post and instead of admitting your mistake, you are trying to desperately divert the discussion

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Bratva

danger007 said:


> In this thread and remaining IAF or MKI related threads i only learned some points...
> 1. mav3rick said PAF do have ground EW assets and Awacs to Jam the IAF awacs.. and some other member said IAF don't have EW assets to Jam the PAF awacs..
> 2. and some other members (Pakistani) said PAF role will be purely defensive, so it hold the home advantage (AWACS+SAM's +Radars+others)... so you guys think IAF will be aggressor... In that case IAF primary aim is to destroy your ground assets, that is why Super su-30mki and brahmos Integration.
> 3. F-16 will give upper hand for PAF. how many F-16 blk 52 is with PAF? how many will stay in reserve command?
> 4. some other member said we have large area to defend... where as pakistan do have small area to defend.. we got problem with 2 countries... and we do have strategic bases for them. we are happy to say that we surrounded three sides with ocean.... you don't have long legs to attack us deep inside our territory...
> 
> Final conclusion is India will be aggressor so MKI is not useful against PAF because PAF have sam's,awacs, ew ,F-16,JF-17 holds advantage because of it's RCS is lower than MKI...
> @sancho, @Storm Force, and other Indian members.. please guys how many days you will argue like this.. come to one conclusion...




Land Attack Cruise Missiles and Air Launch Cruise Missiles in PA and PAF inventory are their for a reason, to give them the limited offensive capability to strike your Airbases. So keep dreaming that IAF will have an advantage of being an aggressor.



Storm Force said:


> *SO PAF TACTICS of overcoming the MKI is to sit on the defensive in their own back yard under cover of their AWACS & GCC & sam COVER...
> 
> Seems to me your paf has HANDED THE IAF the intiative to conduct the war at their desired location/targets and their desired speed & intensity.*
> 
> YOUR PAF retaliation tactic of cruise missle strrikes is very flawed and very HIT & MISS.
> 
> NO ONE EVER ACHIEVD AIR SUPERIORITY USING BALLISTIC MISSLES ONLY .
> 
> bit like saddam hussains tactics with his SCUDS proved to be rubbish doctrine



As if we are living in a an era where pakistan has no advance Cruise missiles and Ballistic missiles to hit your Military And Airbase installations!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## GURU DUTT

mafiya said:


> Land Attack Cruise Missiles and Air Launch Cruise Missiles in PA and PAF inventory are their for a reason, to give them the limited offensive capability to strike your Airbases. So keep dreaming that IAF will have an advantage of being an aggressor.
> 
> 
> 
> As if we are living in a an era where pakistan has no advance Cruise missiles and Ballistic missiles to hit your Military And Airbase installations!



well sir with all deu respects do you have any idea about indian AA batteries and the ground support both interms of electronik servivelence and human resources well im not a very technikal person but sir when u harp about sabotaging tactiks we can onli laugh as IA is not PA and there is hell lot of differnce in protection and assets of the both and as for your super dubar babur and Raad well sir do you have any idea about the BM's in indian inventory to do the same to you and also take in account the diff and time they both take vice versa and not to mention the multi layerd radar and AA combo capabilitiers what IAF & IA have over the PA & PAF well you could denai it but cant ignoare it and about gudence and cpabilities of cruise missiles well sir dont forget about owr AAD ,PAD,Akash , SPYDER & some russian and French stuff + the backing of SATS & greenpines + PHalcons he he he he now bring some thing new as this thread suggests

Re: How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-95.html#ixzz2H4ivzMjd


----------



## Mav3rick

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir with all deu respects do you have any idea about indian AA batteries and the ground support both interms of electronik servivelence and human resources well im not a very technikal person but sir when u harp about sabotaging tactiks we can onli laugh as IA is not PA and there is hell lot of differnce in protection and assets of the both and as for your super dubar babur and Raad well sir do you have any idea about the BM's in indian inventory to do the same to you and also take in account the diff and time they both take vice versa and not to mention the multi layerd radar and AA combo capabilitiers what IAF & IA have over the PA & PAF well you could denai it but cant ignoare it and about gudence and cpabilities of cruise missiles well sir dont forget about owr AAD ,PAD,Akash , SPYDER & some russian and French stuff + the backing of SATS & greenpines + PHalcons he he he he now bring some thing new as this thread suggests
> 
> Re: How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-95.html#ixzz2H4ivzMjd



You are expanding the topic of this discussion from countering the MKI within PAF Air Space to overall suppression of enemy air defense tactics and air superiority over IAF by PAF which the PAF was never raised for! PAF would only venture deep into IAF territory when it is quite certain that it will be able to deliver a package and return safely which will only happen when IAF air superiority fighters are eliminated (which is quite unlikely).


----------



## Armstrong

@GURU DUTT : Yeh eik Tharkii Brigade ki member ka kiyaa kaam haiii aisiii threads parrr ? 

P.S All the things you mentioned in your post...we've got them too perhaps not pound for pound but eve still; which means even at a conventional level the deterrence probably holds.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Storm Force said:


> Tommahawk
> 
> Cruise missles are guided by GPS satalites.
> 
> Stop comparing a multi billion dollar tommahawk cruise missle with FIRE AND FORGET programme costing a few million dollars.
> 
> If indian bases are unsecured I SUGGEST PAF BASES are comparitvely NAKED . The reason PAF bases are NAKED you people have invested virtually zero on long range sam cover. YOUR RELYING ON man pads with ranges of 4km .
> 
> I mean common on man a few terrirsts blew your AWACS up in your own city airfield...



You do realize that you are speaking of 2 totally different scenarios, 1 where the attack happens during peace time but still by a bunch of highly trained, highly skilled commandos that were equipped with highly sophisticated night time fighting ability that even PAF operators lacked on their base? And the other is an attack by IAF.

Personally, I believe the airforce was caught with its pants down and severely wanting as they should have had some contingency plans for such situations. However, the sophistication of the attack and the help and support provided by insiders was extremely helpful to the terrorists.

By the way, study the history of Pakistan Military and try to find out how many times they have disclosed their true capabilities unless there is a specific reason to do so. Many of my esteemed co members of the forum have disclosed secrets that offer insight of what PAF operated to defend itself against IAF Fighters, many times it has been disclosed what kind of assets PAF operates especially the long range SAM systems.

We are of the opinion that Indians boast about weapons systems that they may 'yet acquire' and start figuring and counting it as part of an integrated system. However PakMil does not disclose most of her acquisitions and assets are only revealed when the time is right, be it JFT/Ra'ad/Babur etc., although these may be floated by pdf members through rumors earlier, these things are never disclosed by the military until they absolutely have to, for some reason.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

notorious_eagle said:


> Read post 1372 and 1370. R Darter has been in PAF service for quite some time now.



Only a very very thin source present about that. It has been reported only once in 2010. Doesn't exactly fit the definition of a reliable source.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Listen kid I told you before this tactic has been employed successfully by the Israeli's, the US, the Swedes and the Japanese.
> As a matter of fact an Indian Air Force Mirage pilot and squadron leader made the same suggestion for a AWACS busting mission. The only difference between what I suggested and what he proposed is the armament since the IAF Mirage does not have anti-radiation missile he proposed the use of BVR missiles and since the Mirage does not have short take off capability he proposed following low flying fighters on a ground strike mission popping up to take a BVR shot once beyond the slant range of the airborne radar.



Can you give me a link of what IAF squadron leader said?



Mav3rick said:


> How does anybody know whether the Mirages were armed with BVR or not? I mean why upgrade them with a BVR capable radar if they were never going to use a BVR? But why the fuss, the Mirages can use a BVR today right?



They can't use BVRs till they have BVRs.


----------



## GURU DUTT

Armstrong said:


> @GURU DUTT : Yeh eik Tharkii Brigade ki member ka kiyaa kaam haiii aisiii threads parrr ?
> 
> P.S All the things you mentioned in your post...we've got them too perhaps not pound for pound but eve still; which means even at a conventional level the deterrence probably holds.



Sirji tharki lg bhee insan hi hote  hain na aur muhib ul watan bhee 

baki baat palle nahi pari jara aam bhasha me samjhaosirji

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Armstrong

GURU DUTT said:


> Sirji tharki lg bhee insan hi hote  hain na aur muhi ul watan bhee
> 
> baki baat palle nahi pari jara aam bhasha me samjhaosirji



I miss @cheekybird & the old gang !  

Meraa matlaab thaa keh aap kee paaas bhii baraa kuch hai aur hamareii passs bhii bohat kuch haiii eikk dosreiii kii bohat casualties karniii ke liyee even in a purely non-nuclear conventional war isss wasteiii junnng hoii giii hiii nahin because both High Commands would weigh up the probable costs of even a conventional war & digress. 

Abbb ziyadaaa seh ziyadaa koiii isolated skirmish yaa phir stand-offs hon gain !


----------



## GURU DUTT

Armstrong said:


> I miss @cheekybird & the old gang !
> 
> Meraa matlaab thaa keh aap kee paaas bhii baraa kuch hai aur hamareii passs bhii bohat kuch haiii eikk dosreiii kii bohat casualties karniii ke liyee even in a purely non-nuclear conventional war isss wasteiii junnng hoii giii hiii nahin because both High Commands would weigh up the probable costs of even a conventional war & digress.
> 
> Abbb ziyadaaa seh ziyadaa koiii isolated skirmish yaa phir stand-offs hon gain !



Sirji uska naam leke to apne mere ko imotional ker diya hai 

well sir i was saying the samethatpaskitani and indian commands both cant do any thing to each other as we already have too much on owr hands to handle but i guess this thread is good and im Lovin it

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

trident2010 said:


> Yes I agree there will be counter measured such as jamming or creating dummy EM noise. I found a pic showing the specifications of the MKI radar in the presence of natural / organised counter measures. Still its detection range is 135 km air to air. Which is more than enough to fire a volley of long range BVR's to the enemy formations.
> 
> https://e68a5715-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...GIg0Sfop5M-9nfYjEMuv6YtaaicASw&attredirects=1



The detection range presented on the poster is the training mode figures... with the radar operating 1KW maximum.... or just the figures required for illumination of wave tube.. which had the ratings for about 4KW maximum... those have been replaced by wave tubes in the ratings between 7 to 10KW... over the time.

These figures describe the performance at peak power.







The AESA selected for Su30MKI wold have ratings in between 10-15 watt/Channel... equating for upto about 16 to 24KW peak power.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> They can't use BVRs till they have BVRs.



But that's my point, some speculate that PAF had undisclosed BVR capability, others claim otherwise. I guess we will never know. Even AIM-120C5 were disclosed because they were part of a package deal and I guess because the US announces its deals with PAF. SD-10 was disclosed because it is expected to arm the JFT which Pakistan & China wish to export to other countries. Otherwise these would have remained a secret.


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> Kindly stop repeating the same posted message again and again. *No matter how many TRM's Phalcon has*, it can still only look as far as 450km's and Erieye too can see as far as 450km's so what's the big deal here? The only big deal is that PAF jets have much smaller RCS then IAF Jets hence smaller chance of being picked up at range over 300km's.



There you go showing true colors.
No the phalcon looks beyond... tracks more targets both near/on ground or in the air.
Phalcons have the luxury to stay 100 miles inside the Indian border and know what is happening upto the Afghanistan border in Pakistan... same cannot be said the Ere-eye.

The Phalcon radar can pick up 1-2m^2 targets at 400km distance.
Other than MKI what other jets are you talking about ?... a Mig21bison has an RCS figure below 1m^2 in clean configuration.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## naseem shah

We have 45 F-16 A/B&#8217;s being upgraded to blk-50 and 18 blk-52 and negociating for 14 more blk 52
Now USAF uses blk 52 and was able to defeat ur MKI at red flag 2008


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> The detection range presented on the poster is the training mode figures... with the radar operating 1KW maximum.... or just the figures required for illumination of wave tube.. which had the ratings for about 4KW maximum... those have been replaced by wave tubes in the ratings between 7 to 10KW... over the time.
> 
> These figures describe the performance at peak power.
> 
> The AESA selected for Su30MKI wold have ratings in between 10-15 watt/Channel... equating for upto about 16 to 24KW peak power.



I have an idea, why don't you raise the power to 100KW and eliminate the need of an AWACS altogether? Or make MKI an AWACS air superiority fighter that can detect targets (on paper) up to 800 km's away?? In all reality I can digest that actual ranges would be classified but would that not hold true for PAF fighters too???

And while IAF continues to expand the MKI's detection "range", I am sure PAF would be more interested in acquisition of Jets that "cannot" be detected or locked by conventional radars!


----------



## danger007

naseem shah said:


> We have 45 F-16 A/B&#8217;s being upgraded to blk-50 and 18 blk-52 and negociating for 14 more blk 52
> Now USAF uses blk 52 and was able to defeat ur MKI at red flag 2008




That is new to me thanks for your information lieutenant ..


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> There you go showing true colors.
> No the phalcon looks beyond... tracks more targets both near/on ground or in the air.
> Phalcons have the luxury to stay 100 miles inside the Indian border and know what is happening upto the Afghanistan border in Pakistan... same cannot be said the Ere-eye.
> 
> The Phalcon radar can pick up 1-2m^2 targets at 400km distance.
> Other than MKI what other jets are you talking about ?... a Mig21bison has an RCS figure below 1m^2 in clean configuration.



I am not really sure what you mean by showing my true colors.

Anyway, Please prove that the Phalcon can pick up and track targets at 400km's with RCS of 1m^2 and that the Bison has an RCS < that in clean configuration (although I wonder what use the Bison would be in that case unless you want a Kamikazi style attack)!

At the same time, I also wonder how you know for a fact that the Phalcon looks and tracks farther then the Eri-Eye, I mean Phalcon maybe in a class of its own but since actual characteristics of atleast the Eri-Eye (PAF configured) are classified. And at the same time you are also discounting the characteristics of Chinese K series AWACS which are classified. To me, the boasts look too tall.


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> I have an idea, *why don't you raise the power to 100KW and eliminate the need of an AWACS altogether*? Or make MKI an AWACS air superiority fighter that can detect targets (on paper) up to 800 km's away?? In all reality I can digest that actual ranges would be classified but would that not hold true for PAF fighters too???
> 
> And while IAF continues to expand the MKI's detection "range", I am sure PAF would be more interested in acquisition of Jets that "cannot" be detected or locked by conventional radars!



Not possible due to limitations in semiconductor industry... However you might see ratings of upto 25-50watt/channel on the radars used on later blocks of rafale aircraft... thanks to GaN transistors.

Sure they would... but IAF already knows that they have evaluated F-16block52 and even the block70... what they don't know is about JF-17 radar which has inferior performance with only 550Watt max. power I guess.

What Jet are you talking about IAF is already planning to induct the 5th Gen. PAK FA/FGFA in that regard.. and HAL are development partners in the project.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> I am not really sure what you mean by showing my true colors.
> 
> Anyway, Please prove that the Phalcon can pick up and track targets at 400km's with RCS of 1m^2 and that the Bison has an RCS < that in clean configuration (although I wonder what use the Bison would be in that case unless you want a Kamikazi style attack)!
> 
> At the same time, I also wonder how you know for a fact that the Phalcon looks and tracks farther then the Eri-Eye, I mean Phalcon maybe in a class of its own but since actual characteristics of atleast the Eri-Eye (PAF configured) are classified. And at the same time you are also discounting the characteristics of Chinese K series AWACS which are classified. To me, the boasts look too tall.



Denialism.

You are very quick to ask for proofs while haven't proved any of your previous claims most of which were proven wrong.
The figures I wrote is what I used to read in different books and journals... The official figures for Phalcon is 250miles for 2m^2 RCS targets... in normal mode.

Bison uses Radar absorbent paints to reduce its RCS from 3m^2 to 1m^2 or below... It was the Mig21 which downed the Atlantique aircraft of PN.. I am sure the Kamikazi style was other way round in that case.

Phalcons looks farther and tracks more targets... as It has more powerful generators to provide more power for a much bigger and powerful radar to radiate farther... and more TRMMs to track more targets... It can performs much faster processing thanks to more powerful computers and Supercomputers used with better programming codes.

I am talking on basis of class... If you classify a scooter it does not compare with a sports car.

The only AWACS close to Phalcon is the Chinese KJ-2000 which is based on earlier models of Phalcon radar watered down.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> Not possible due to limitations in semiconductor industry... However you might see ratings of upto 25-50watt/channel on the radars used on later blocks of rafale aircraft... thanks to GaN transistors.
> 
> Sure they would... but IAF already knows that they have evaluated F-16block52 and even the block70... what they don't know is about JF-17 radar which has inferior performance with only 550Watt max. power I guess.
> 
> What Jet are you talking about IAF is already planning to induct the 5th Gen. PAK FA/FGFA in that regard.. and HAL are development partners in the project.



O yaar tu sota nahi hai kia?? 550W Max power is what you know, you have no idea what JFT has and is being upgraded with.

By the way, don't let me think that you don't know what PAF is involved in for next gen Fighters.


----------



## MilSpec

Mav3rick said:


> O yaar tu sota nahi hai kia?? 550W Max power is what you know, you have no idea what JFT has and is being upgraded with.
> 
> By the way, don't let me think that you don't know what PAF is involved in for next gen Fighters.



whats the point of comparison then, your FC1 upgrades are super secret so are the details of your zdk awacs, saab erirye, and bvr missiles which were aparently highly upgraded by pakistan. In all there are no details available, except that "It surely trumps MKI and whatever IAF fields", right?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GURU DUTT

Mav3rick said:


> O yaar tu sota nahi hai kia?? 550W Max power is what you know, you have no idea what JFT has and is being upgraded with.
> 
> By the way, don't let me think that you don't know what PAF is involved in for next gen Fighters.



sirji with deu respect your now trying to deviate  here well do you have any idea about what MKI already has and its real streanth not to mention what its going to get in couple of years from now


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> Denialism.
> 
> You are very quick to ask for proofs while haven't proved any of your previous claims most of which were proven wrong.
> The figures I wrote is what I used to read in different books and journals... The official figures for Phalcon is 250miles for 2m^2 RCS targets... in normal mode.



On the contrary, I am the only one who has accepted whenever proof has been provided or when logical posts are posted.

None of my claims have proved anything but fact, not a single one as unlike you I accept reality. By the way didn't you say something about 1m^2? at 400km's (and not 2m^2?). I still await proof of that.





DARKY said:


> Bison uses Radar absorbent paints to reduce its RCS from 3m^2 to 1m^2 or below... It was the Mig21 which downed the Atlantique aircraft of PN.. I am sure the Kamikazi style was other way round in that case.



It was a Mig-21 that downed the atlantique that's why it has 1m^2 RCS? And the Bison was able to achieve such unbelievable feats of reducing it's RCS 2 times just be RAM coatings??? I'd like proof of that too please. As well as it's RCS when loaded!





DARKY said:


> Phalcons looks farther and tracks more targets... as It has more powerful generators to provide more power for a much bigger and powerful radar to radiate farther... and more TRMMs to track more targets... It can performs much faster processing thanks to more powerful computers and Supercomputers used with better programming codes.



Now see, you are making claims but are unable to prove them. You keep saying that Phalcons can look farther & track more targets but you do not provide any evidence to back your claims. Most likely the Phalcon does see further and is able to track more targets and faster too. But you make it as if the Phalcon is 1 end of technological spectrum and the Eri-eye the other (high and low). I'd like you to prove that with evidence and not just hollow words.





DARKY said:


> I am talking on basis of class... If you classify a scooter it does not compare with a sports car.



What makes Phalcon a scooter?





DARKY said:


> The only AWACS close to Phalcon is the Chinese KJ-2000 which is based on earlier models of Phalcon radar watered down.



And what details do you have of the KJ-2000 or even 200? As far as I know, the Chinese never got anything that resembles the Phalcon except the hollow core then why is the KJ2K comparable to Phalcon's "watered down earlier model"??


----------



## danger007

Mav3rick said:


> O yaar tu sota nahi hai kia?? 550W Max power is what you know, you have no idea what JFT has and is being upgraded with.
> 
> By the way, don't let me think that you don't know what PAF is involved in for next gen Fighters.




Even you don't know about that.. am i right... you are just hoping ..


----------



## datalibdaz

You people have seriously no idea what you are talking about..Useless comparison, copied fake wrong stats and stupid meaningless
arguments,no knowledge about the topic but still this thread will continue beyond 100 pages...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> O yaar tu sota nahi hai kia?? 550W Max power is what you know, you have no idea what JFT has and is being upgraded with.
> 
> By the way, don't let me think that you don't know what PAF is involved in for next gen Fighters.



Go and read the JF17 information pool... and you'll find the maximum power ratings for KLJ-7 stands at 550W.

Which project are you talking about ?


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> On the contrary, I am the only one who has accepted whenever proof has been provided or when logical posts are posted.
> 
> None of my claims have proved anything but fact, not a single one as unlike you I accept reality. By the way didn't you say something about 1m^2? at 400km's (and not 2m^2?). I still await proof of that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was a Mig-21 that downed the atlantique that's why it has 1m^2 RCS? And the Bison was able to achieve such unbelievable feats of reducing it's RCS 2 times just be RAM coatings??? I'd like proof of that too please. As well as it's RCS when loaded!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now see, you are making claims but are unable to prove them. You keep saying that Phalcons can look farther & track more targets but you do not provide any evidence to back your claims. Most likely the Phalcon does see further and is able to track more targets and faster too. But you make it as if the Phalcon is 1 end of technological spectrum and the Eri-eye the other (high and low). I'd like you to prove that with evidence and not just hollow words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes Phalcon a scooter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what details do you have of the KJ-2000 or even 200? As far as I know, the Chinese never got anything that resembles the Phalcon except the hollow core then why is the KJ2K comparable to Phalcon's "watered down earlier model"??



Your facts.. said that JF17 fires Aim120,
PAF ordered Aim120C5.
Singapore AF doesn't allow IAF pilots study their aircrafts.
And many more... which I forgot... 

I said that I read about those figures in some books/journals years ago.
Even simple browsing through internet or a little understanding about radars would explain that to you.
If you can't browse or don't understand then its not my problem.

Thats was for the Kamikazi comment you made about Mig21 which by far is the most produced aircraft after the 2nd WW.
Go and read about the difference RAM had on F16 RCS clean[reduction from 5m^2 to 1.2m^2].. Bison had similar upgrade in this regard.. It RCS stands well below normal Mig21 and is around 1m^2 or less.

A normal Air-Air configuration would add about 2-3m^2.

No body can provide you with evidence... there are somethings which are understood however It was my mistake that I posted something your Brain cannot understand.

Your question is similar to asking proof as to why a truck carriers more load and a car cannot.
I don't have time for such elaborate explanation which would again go wasted thanks to your IQ and understanding abilities.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/5/37545.pdf

There you go... you can't even understand little examples...
Your Brain is worse than that of the dumbest person I've come across.

Chinese got a lot of help from Israel which included antenna design and some classified information which only the Israeli and Chinese engineers know... they were very close to sign the deal when the US govt. blocked it.

The information offered by Israel was for financial benefits and It was against their interests to provide their top information to Chinese which could help anti-Israeli groups in long run.

Besides there were newer version of the AWACS radar evolved with the EL/W-2090 being the latest... used in the Phalcon AWACS project.

EL/W-2090 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> And while IAF continues to expand the MKI's detection "range", I am sure PAF would be more interested in acquisition of Jets that "cannot" be detected or locked by conventional radars!



Like JF17???


----------



## wakapdf

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Like JF17???



No, Flying carpets  They have very low radar signature and cannot be detected by any radar. Guy holding a genie lamp riding the carpet is better than any bvr out there. Very cheap to maintain and could be acquired in large numbers very quickly.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## viper1972

wakapdf said:


> No, Flying carpets  They have very low radar signature and cannot be detected by any radar. Guy holding a genie lamp riding the carpet is better than any bvr out there. Very cheap to maintain and could be acquired in large numbers very quickly.



bravo bro no one can come close to this stealth technology.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Like JF17???



he doesn't have any Idea.. what exactly he is talking...

cannot be detected? i guess he is talking about 5th gen fighters... well certainly he is forgetting one thing... Even china itself don't offer 5th gen fighter let it be J-20 or any thing unless until PLAAF full fill it's requirement... his arguments is pretty useless..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## wakapdf

viper1972 said:


> bravo bro no one can come close to this stealth technology.



Glad to see someone who also sees this from my pov.  .... In the age of BVR's we talk of countering this plane or that plane, but everyone seems to forget the era we are in. Today, whoever detects first, shoots first. No-one would even come close for dog fights. It would be 1 in a 100 thing. BVR and radar is the name of the game. Not plane for plane!


----------



## Storm Force

wakapdf I thank you for making the MOST SENSIBLE POST in over 90 pages of pure fanboyz jingoism

your comment


> In the age of BVR's we talk of countering this plane or that plane, but everyone seems to forget the era we are in. Today, whoever detects first, shoots first. No-one would even come close for dog fights. It would be 1 in a 100 thing. BVR and radar is the name of the game. Not plane for plane!
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-97.html#ixzz2H8DqHbPG



The BEST, RICHIST , air powers in the world train for 80% of their time to fight a WAR IN A BVR SCENARIO

iTS ALL ABOUT

Radar power which includes range and processing power ie AESA PESA at least MSA 
dectection = RCS 
bvr = range. diffderent seelers for confusion 
NEZ = NO ESCAPE ZONE
AWACS support
sophiticated JAMMERS 


21st century air war is not about PILOT SKILL and the sooner PDF members realise this THE BETTER 

DOG FIGHTING IS DEAD in front of a AMRAAM C5 , MICA, R27/R77 amramski or in the FUTURE meteore bvr

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

DARKY said:


> Your facts.. said that JF17 fires Aim120,
> *PAF ordered Aim120C5.*
> Singapore AF doesn't allow IAF pilots study their aircrafts.
> And many more... which I forgot...









*Actually the PAF already possesses the Aim-120 C-5's

And if you wanna compare so that there is no room for doubt then go ahead....*


----------



## airomerix

Dog fighting days are over...

The same blunder which was done by Americans during Vietnam war. If there was even a little sense in this statement then Eurofighter, Rafale, Raptor or even the latest F-35 wouldnt be equipped with an inbuilt 20mm cannon.


----------



## GURU DUTT

airomerix said:


> Dog fighting days are over...
> 
> The same blunder which was done by Americans during Vietnam war. If there was even a little sense in this statement then Eurofighter, Rafale, Raptor or even the latest F-35 wouldnt be equipped with an inbuilt 20mm cannon.



Sir with deu respect there's always a plan B


----------



## airomerix

GURU DUTT said:


> Sir with deu respect there's always a plan B



I would be highly obliged if you can disclose the Plan B of IAF?


----------



## GURU DUTT

airomerix said:


> I would be highly obliged if you can disclose the Plan B of IAF?



well if we disclose it wont be plan B 

but the funny part is that you dont have an escape route fr plan A itself (MKIs with all that elekronik hokus phokus +Israeli, french and russian missiles on board+Indian radar assets-net centrikk warfare-sat cover+Phalcon)..


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> Dog fighting days are over...
> 
> The same blunder which was done by Americans during Vietnam war. If there was even a little sense in this statement then Eurofighter, Rafale, Raptor or even the latest F-35 wouldnt be equipped with an inbuilt 20mm cannon.



Planes are equipped with cannon for the scenario when it is out of missiles. When was vietnam war fought? Oh yes, 40 years ago. BVR is the everything today. And PAF has nothing in its arsenal to counter the BVR capability of Su30 MKI. And we have the numerical strength as well.


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Planes are equipped with cannon for the scenario when it is out of missiles. When was vietnam war fought? Oh yes, 40 years ago. BVR is the everything today. And PAF has nothing in its arsenal to counter the BVR capability of Su30 MKI. And we have the numerical strength as well.



Indeed a very far fetched statement from you as expected. Cannons were NEVER a replacement for missiles even if they run out. It maybe the secondary use of the cannon's but only a fool would think "hey im out of missiles, im switching to guns!". 

In WVR combat If the target is less then a kilometer away, then missiles are deemed as in-effective as they cannot reach their terminal performance in that short period. This is exactly what happened in Vietnam war (which was fought 40 years ago and still you donot want to learn anything from it because you are too busy defending your vague and insane statements) when the F-4s lacked inbuilt cannons and the pilots became dependent upon missiles which were largely ineffective due to the small Migs slipping through beneath while they used their own CANNONS to down the large Phantoms. The combat kills of USAF vis a vis Russians/Chinese were reduced to 3:1 from 8:1 only because of some one like you perhaps made a blunder while designing the F-4 Phantom. 

Nothing fancy

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> Indeed a very far fetched statement from you as expected. Cannons were NEVER a replacement for missiles even if they run out. It maybe the secondaring use of the cannon's but only a fool would think "hey im out of missiles, im switching to guns!".
> 
> In WVR combat If the target is less then a kilometer away, then missiles are deemed as in-effective as they cannot reach their terminal performance in that short period. This is exactly what happened in Vietnam war (which was fought 40 years ago and still you donot want to learn anything from it because you are too busy defending your vague and insane statements) when the F-4s lacked inbuilt cannons and the pilots became dependent upon missiles which were largely ineffective due to the small Migs slipping through beneath while they used their own CANNONS to down the large Phantoms. The combat kills of USAF vis a vis Russians/Chinese were reduced to 3:1 from 8:1 only because of some one like you perhaps made a blunder while designing the F-4 Phantom.
> 
> Nothing fancy




You just don't give up do you? Just two days you came stupidly claiming Matra 530 to be a BVR mssile, or was that your compatriot? Anyways, Guns are only effective against *agile fighters* and *"only" in WVR combat*. *An aircraft with Cannons will have no chance against a BVR capable aircraft*. Cannons will only be effective after an aircraft is out of its BVR missiles.

Experience in Vietnam showed that the *WVR missile* of the phantoms AIM-4 was less effective than cannon. If BVR missiles had been used, the story would have been different. Don't reply without proper context.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

airomerix said:


> Indeed a very far fetched statement from you as expected. Cannons were NEVER a replacement for missiles even if they run out. It maybe the secondary use of the cannon's but only a fool would think "hey im out of missiles, im switching to guns!".
> 
> In WVR combat If the target is less then a kilometer away, then missiles are deemed as in-effective as they cannot reach their terminal performance in that short period. This is exactly what happened in Vietnam war (which was fought 40 years ago and still you donot want to learn anything from it because you are too busy defending your vague and insane statements) when the F-4s lacked inbuilt cannons and the pilots became dependent upon missiles which were largely ineffective due to the small Migs slipping through beneath while they used their own CANNONS to down the large Phantoms. The combat kills of USAF vis a vis Russians/Chinese were reduced to 3:1 from 8:1 only because of some one like you perhaps made a blunder while designing the F-4 Phantom.
> 
> Nothing fancy



40 years ago you don't have BVR option. but you have now... why you need to go just 1km to your foe fighter?.. I guess you can't reach that short distance you might be shot down by the time. when you reach within 1km to your foe... you have lame argument..

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Shadow_Hunter said:


> You just don't give up do you? Just two days you came stupidly claiming Matra 530 to be a BVR mssile, or was that your compatriot? Anyways, Guns are only effective against *agile fighters* and *"only" in WVR combat*. *An aircraft with Cannons will have no chance against a BVR capable aircraft*. Cannons will only be effective after an aircraft is out of its BVR missiles.
> 
> Experience in Vietnam showed that the *WVR missile* of the phantoms AIM-4 was less effective than cannon. If BVR missiles had been used, the story would have been different. Don't reply without proper context.



performance /pk of bvr missiles were even less..they were not mature enough.


www.pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Agnostic_Indian said:


> performance /pk of bvr missiles were even less..they were not mature enough.
> 
> 
> www.pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf



But they are mature now. 

The person whose post I quoted told me something about a 40 year old war and argued that since a particular weapon did not work at that time, its upgraded will not work even today. Today's BVR missiles are state of art, and evolving rapidly. His argument doesn't hold water anymore.


----------



## rockstarIN

In fact, PAF should think about to counter upgraded versions of SU-30MKIs (Super Su-30MKIs) NOW and plan accordingly. Because soon Super Su-30 MKIs will be paired with FGFAs in the future.


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> You just don't give up do you? Just two days you came stupidly claiming Matra 530 to be a BVR mssile, or was that your compatriot? Anyways, Guns are only effective against *agile fighters* and *"only" in WVR combat*. *An aircraft with Cannons will have no chance against a BVR capable aircraft*. Cannons will only be effective after an aircraft is out of its BVR missiles.
> 
> Experience in Vietnam showed that the *WVR missile* of the phantoms AIM-4 was less effective than cannon. If BVR missiles had been used, the story would have been different. Don't reply without proper context.



I never claimed Matra 530 is a BVR. I just refuted your claim that PAF Mirages are limited to WVR warfare only. 



> Guns are only effective against agile fighters and "only" in WVR combat. An aircraft with Cannons will have no chance against a BVR capable aircraft.



So Guns wouldnt be effecting against less agile fighters? Seriously?  



> Cannons will only be effective after an aircraft is out of its BVR missiles.



Su-30 Pilot: Tower this is Nancy 1, Im out of Aadars. What to do? 

Tower: Copy Nancy 1, Switch to Guns.

Su-30 Pilots: So I should wait for another 200 kilometers Tower 1?

Tower: Positive Nancy 1, OVER.

According to your STUPIDITY the above discussion will take place. And i thought my jokes were bad. 



> Experience in Vietnam showed that the WVR missile of the phantoms AIM-4 was less effective than cannon. If BVR missiles had been used, the story would have been different. Don't reply without proper context.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-97.html#ixzz2HBZdQuWL



Are claimng that BVR's are more accurate then WVR's? Should I shoot you or the poor admin who is having mercy over you?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Shadow_Hunter said:


> But they are mature now.
> 
> The person whose post I quoted told me something about a 40 year old war and argued that since a particular weapon did not work at that time, its upgraded will not work even today. Today's BVR missiles are state of art, and evolving rapidly. His argument doesn't hold water anymore.



yes you are right, I was just pointing out that bvr missiles pk was worse than wvr missiles pk at that point of time. Today most of the air to air battles will be bvr but there will be wvr battle also.


----------



## danger007

airomerix said:


> I never claimed Matra 530 is a BVR. I just refuted your claim that PAF Mirages are limited to WVR warfare only.
> 
> 
> 
> So Guns wouldnt be effecting against less agile fighters? Seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> Su-30 Pilot: Tower this is Nancy 1, Im out of Aadars. What to do?
> 
> Tower: Copy Nancy 1, Switch to Guns.
> 
> Su-30 Pilots: So I should wait for another 200 kilometers Tower 1?
> 
> Tower: Positive Nancy 1, OVER.
> 
> According to your STUPIDITY the above discussion will take place. And i thought my jokes were bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Are claimng that BVR's are more accurate then WVR's? Should I shoot you or the poor admin who is having mercy over you?



huh are you real


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> I never claimed Matra 530 is a BVR. I just refuted your claim that PAF Mirages are limited to WVR warfare only.



Your own countrymen claimed that mirages are limited to WVR while you continued with your rant. Turn back to check.



> So Guns wouldnt be effecting against less agile fighters? Seriously?



Guns would be less effective as compared to WVR missiles against less agile fighters. Again, reply only after understanding the context, idiot.



> Su-30 Pilot: Tower this is Nancy 1, Im out of Aadars. What to do?
> 
> Tower: Copy Nancy 1, Switch to Guns.
> 
> Su-30 Pilots: So I should wait for another 200 kilometers Tower 1?
> 
> Tower: Positive Nancy 1, OVER.
> 
> According to your STUPIDITY the above discussion will take place. And i thought my jokes were bad.



Then tell me why will a MKI enter a dogfight when it still has it BVR missiles or shut up. Give me a scenario where that will be useful.



> Are claimng that BVR's are more accurate then WVR's? Should I shoot you or the poor admin who is having mercy over you?



I am claiming that BVR is more effective than WVR. That is why the world is moving towards BVR. Look at F35 whose WVR capability is as good as ****.


----------



## abdulbarijan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Your own countrymen claimed that mirages are limited to WVR while you continued with your rant. Turn back to check.



Some of the mirages are using Grifo radar which does provide BVR capability as far as detection goes, for weapons lets not get in to conclusions but there is alot of confusion over some *" rumored weaponry" *of PAF .... wanna take a look ??



> "Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets," they said, adding the missiles were modified version of the South African T-Darter BVR missiles. The PAF claims to have H-2 BVR missiles which could hit targets up to 60 km.
> 
> Reports of Pakistan seeking the BVR technology appeared in the South African media. In the face of protests from India, the South African government blamed "rogue" elements to collaborate with Pakistan to develop BVRs.
> 
> *PAF officials said the H-4 missiles which was an infra-red device and comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 missiles of the IAF would be fitted on to the PAF's Mirage aircraft until the induction of new plane JF-17 Thunder, jointly developed by Pakistan and China, in 2006.*



P.S I GET BONUS POINTS FOR QUOTING TIMES OF INDIA 

Pak Air Force inducts BVR missiles - Times Of India



> Then tell me why will a MKI enter a dogfight when it still has it BVR missiles or shut up. Give me a scenario where that will be useful.



Sure consider the following things :-
*
-Close proximity of IAF and PAF bases
-Acquiring radar locks on the target
-The target resisting using jamming / ECM's
-The speed of both aircrafts (supersonic / or high subsonic)
-The average success rate of a BVR missile (Its never a 100% or is it?)
-Fratricides (see the kills eg in red flag )*

So consider all the above in a 2-3 minute window and tell us how do you think a WVR cannot occur ... Its not even an option ... its nearly inevitable and that is why* you see the likes of high T/W, TVC, canards etc to increase maneuverability and improve turn rates*.....

And while we are at it why dont you simply answer this ... 

*IF WVR IS FINISHED----WHY THEN DOES IAF OPERATE R-73 SRAAM ?*

Actions speak louder than words you see.....





> I am claiming that BVR is more effective than WVR. That is why the world is moving towards BVR. Look at F35 whose WVR capability is as good as ****.



Even the first air dominance full stealth aircraft aka the F-22 houses a gun, why is that ??? 
You cannot evade WVR .... It is not possible until a complete revolution of aerospace technology occurs where every one can see and target everything from anywhere .... 

If you talk F-35, just think that countries would in the next decade be *operating the F-60, PAK-FA and F-35's ... all stealthy aircrafts and their own respective sensors will detect each other later* .....(if you talk the current methods being employed to detect aircrafts like radars, IR signatures etc), *so again WVR will occur* .....Its just a fact ...

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> Go and read the JF17 information pool... and you'll find the maximum power ratings for KLJ-7 stands at 550W.
> 
> Which project are you talking about ?



Doesn't matter what information pool states about KLJ-7 as the true capabilities, just like that of the BARS radar, are always classified. Furthermore, the radars will be upgraded, the same is true for MKI too.

I am talking about the 5th Gen Projects that PAF is involved in with PLAAF. That is sufficient information for you.


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> Your facts.. said that JF17 fires Aim120,
> PAF ordered Aim120C5.
> Singapore AF doesn't allow IAF pilots study their aircrafts.
> And many more... which I forgot...



It does,
It did,
It doesn't,
Lol......don't have anything at all right, no wonder. LOL!!!





DARKY said:


> I said that I read about those figures in some books/journals years ago.
> Even simple browsing through internet or a little understanding about radars would explain that to you.
> If you can't browse or don't understand then its not my problem.



So you have no 'proof', right??





DARKY said:


> Thats was for the Kamikazi comment you made about Mig21 which by far is the most produced aircraft after the 2nd WW.
> Go and read about the difference RAM had on F16 RCS clean[reduction from 5m^2 to 1.2m^2].. Bison had similar upgrade in this regard.. It RCS stands well below normal Mig21 and is around 1m^2 or less.
> 
> A normal Air-Air configuration would add about 2-3m^2.
> 
> No body can provide you with evidence... there are somethings which are understood however It was my mistake that I posted something your Brain cannot understand.
> 
> Your question is similar to asking proof as to why a truck carriers more load and a car cannot.
> I don't have time for such elaborate explanation which would again go wasted thanks to your IQ and understanding abilities.



So yet again you have no proof, right? All you have is a pile of BS. Atleast you are consistent with your BS, I have to give you that. And my Kamikazi comment stands valid still because there is no point in discussing clean configurations unless the Jet is to be used in such a way.





DARKY said:


> http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/5/37545.pdf
> 
> There you go... you can't even understand little examples...
> Your Brain is worse than that of the dumbest person I've come across.



And just as expected, consistency without *PROOF*. No proof at all for any BS claim. Listen Kid, either come back to me with proof or stay put!





DARKY said:


> Chinese got a lot of help from Israel which included antenna design and some classified information which only the Israeli and Chinese engineers know... they were very close to sign the deal when the US govt. blocked it.



And ignorant too, the agreement was already signed and Israel had to reimburse China for non-implementation!





DARKY said:


> The information offered by Israel was for financial benefits and It was against their interests to provide their top information to Chinese which could help anti-Israeli groups in long run.
> 
> Besides there were newer version of the AWACS radar evolved with the EL/W-2090 being the latest... used in the Phalcon AWACS project.
> 
> EL/W-2090 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



And yet again, stories from the wild!

Next time, bring proof or as I said, stay put!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Like JF17???



5th Gen fighters. By the way the RCS of JF-17 is already comparable to an F-16 so it can be reduced even further with RAM, use of composites, compliant engine etc., albeit at the expense of cost.



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Planes are equipped with cannon for the scenario when it is out of missiles. When was vietnam war fought? Oh yes, 40 years ago. BVR is the everything today. And PAF has nothing in its arsenal to counter the BVR capability of Su30 MKI. And we have the numerical strength as well.



Atleast prove successful BVR engagements of Russian Missiles and their kill probability! And when you cannot, I will know that you had some shame so you stopped posting about things that have failed miserably in actual combat.


----------



## Mav3rick

danger007 said:


> 40 years ago you don't have BVR option. but you have now... why you need to go just 1km to your foe fighter?.. I guess you can't reach that short distance you might be shot down by the time. when you reach within 1km to your foe... you have lame argument..



Ah well.....Perhaps you should go and read up on Sparrow 1 or AIM-54 BVR Missiles.


----------



## GURU DUTT

Mav3rick said:


> Ah well.....Perhaps you should go and read up on Sparrow 1 or AIM-54 BVR Missiles.



well sir we already have Novatar 100 on owr MKI 

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...CcZY6kjCxYlxBYW7NthMw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk


----------



## BigDaddyWatch

Shenyang J-31 + PL-21 long range ramjet AAM.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

abdulbarijan said:


> Some of the mirages are using Grifo radar which does provide BVR capability as far as detection goes, for weapons lets not get in to conclusions but there is alot of confusion over some *" rumored weaponry" *of PAF .... wanna take a look ??
> 
> 
> 
> P.S I GET BONUS POINTS FOR QUOTING TIMES OF INDIA
> 
> Pak Air Force inducts BVR missiles - Times Of India
> 
> 
> 
> Sure consider the following things :-
> *
> -Close proximity of IAF and PAF bases
> -Acquiring radar locks on the target
> -The target resisting using jamming / ECM's
> -The speed of both aircrafts (supersonic / or high subsonic)
> -The average success rate of a BVR missile (Its never a 100% or is it?)
> -Fratricides (see the kills eg in red flag )*
> 
> So consider all the above in a 2-3 minute window and tell us how do you think a WVR cannot occur ... Its not even an option ... its nearly inevitable and that is why* you see the likes of high T/W, TVC, canards etc to increase maneuverability and improve turn rates*.....
> 
> And while we are at it why dont you simply answer this ...
> 
> *IF WVR IS FINISHED----WHY THEN DOES IAF OPERATE R-73 SRAAM ?*
> 
> Actions speak louder than words you see.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even the first air dominance full stealth aircraft aka the F-22 houses a gun, why is that ???
> You cannot evade WVR .... It is not possible until a complete revolution of aerospace technology occurs where every one can see and target everything from anywhere ....
> 
> If you talk F-35, just think that countries would in the next decade be *operating the F-60, PAK-FA and F-35's ... all stealthy aircrafts and their own respective sensors will detect each other later* .....(if you talk the current methods being employed to detect aircrafts like radars, IR signatures etc), *so again WVR will occur* .....Its just a fact ...



I have never said WVR will never occur. I have always said that rate of WVR will go on decreasing. Already BVR is the dominant form of action, and WVR is receding. Is it so hard to comprehend?

I haven't said PAF does not have BVR missile. I have said your Mirages aren't BVR capable.



Mav3rick said:


> 5th Gen fighters. By the way the RCS of JF-17 is already comparable to an F-16 so it can be reduced even further with RAM, use of composites, compliant engine etc., albeit at the expense of cost.
> 
> 
> 
> Atleast prove successful BVR engagements of Russian Missiles and their kill probability! And when you cannot, I will know that you had some shame so you stopped posting about things that have failed miserably in actual combat.



I will post everything you want me to. After you can define the term "kill probabilty" of a missile. And please give a source as well from where you give this definition. If you can't, shut up.


----------



## Storm Force

MAVERICK PLEASE PROVIDE PROOF OF A CHINESE FIGHTER ACTUALLY ENGAGING AT bvr at knocking out the adversary.

Maverick i ask you this because you keep asking SILLY QUESTIONS like this 

R77 AMRAMSKI IS A NEW BVR not fired in anger

JUST LIKE THE CHINEASE SD10 

OR THE SOON TO BE INDUCTED SUPER bvr meteore or indian ASTRA..

This does not dilute their effectiveness

ON PAPER THE R77 has better kinmetic performance than both MICA & AMRAAM which are top notch western missles. 

SD10 OF CHINA i believe will be copied version of R77 VYMPEL from Russia. 

Finally you giys goinf on about KLJ7 & KLJ10 i suggest you do some RESEARCH on the advantages of a PESA RADAR like the BARS on the mki over the mechanical scanning KLJ & APG63/69 in the PAF . The is no comprison the PESA is lethel

No matter how you dress this question up about countering the MKI the facts are as follows

IAF have far more su30mki in service today than PAF has JF17 & F16 combined

IAF have more SU30MKI on order than PAF has JF17 or F16 

su30mki has a better m,ore advanced PESA radar 

SU30MKI has bigger range of BVR weapons 

SU30MKI has a superb TVC engine giving extreme agility and AOA that cant be MATCHED by both JF17/F16...

RCS on its own with we have SAM COVER will negate this obvious advantages by MUCH MARGINS to make the difference.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> It does,
> It did,
> It doesn't,
> Lol......don't have anything at all right, no wonder. LOL!!!





No it does not...
You said they they ordered/have Aim120C7... *FACEPLAM*
I provided enough pictures for you to see... may be your Brain could not process that.

Here again... a few Images.
















And you still wonder...









Mav3rick said:


> So you have no 'proof', right??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yet again you have no proof, right? All you have is a pile of BS. Atleast you are consistent with your BS, I have to give you that. And my Kamikazi comment stands valid still because there is no point in discussing clean configurations unless the Jet is to be used in such a way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And just as expected, consistency without *PROOF*. No proof at all for any BS claim. Listen Kid, either come back to me with proof or stay put!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And ignorant too, the agreement was already signed and Israel had to reimburse China for non-implementation!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet again, stories from the wild!
> 
> Next time, bring proof or as I said, stay put!



What are you ?
You cannot understand simple language and keep on ranting proof.

I gave the proof... as simple as it gets... read the post again... try to understand... If you can't get some one to make you understand as simple as that.

you don't know what are radars how they work.. what is phased array and what are planar arrays... what are TRMMs and what How different range of frequencies work in illuminating or tracking a target.
You don't know how the RCS works with additional pay load.... *FACEPLAM*
The Mig 21bison armed with 2 RVV-AE and a EL/L-8222 pod would still have RCS below 2m^2 allowing that to get within the striking range against and Ere-eye type target.

What ever I said till now went over your head.

There is no substitute for a Dumb brain and on top of that deliberate stupidity.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Your own countrymen claimed that mirages are limited to WVR while you continued with your rant. Turn back to check.



Iam only here to fix your rants. Im sorry. 




> Guns would be less effective as compared to WVR missiles against less agile fighters. Again, reply only after understanding the context, idiot.



So you mean your flankers will prefer to loose a $85000 r-73 on lets say our Il78s or some C-130 which i suppose would not be as agile as your divine flanker instead of letting go 50 rounds of vulcan cannon which may roughly cost $3000 to the tax payer of India. Not a good bargain I think. Are really on Indian side? 




> Then tell me why will a MKI enter a dogfight when it still has it BVR missiles or shut up. Give me a scenario where that will be useful.



You want a scenario? Lets make one! MKI enters Pakistani airspace over lahore. Manages to get onto the tail of the chasing JF-17 but WAITs for it create a distance of atleast 5-6 Kilometers so that it may utilze its R-77. He will never touch the guns because a retard at defence.pk thinks guns are supposed to be used when BEYOND VISUAL RANGE missiles are used up! How fancy is that? 




> I am claiming that BVR is more effective than WVR. That is why the world is moving towards BVR. Look at F35 whose WVR capability is as good as ****.



Obama should shoot the Raythoens CEO for intiating the AIM-9X programme and draining down billions of dollars of US taxpayer money because the SAME RETARD thinks that WVR missiles are a waste and no longer needed. 

Instead of telling some dozen other members here to 'shut up' why dont you shut the 'eff" up and get the 'eff' out of this thread? Or I have a better idea! Join some IAF instuctor school and help PAF in saving our jets from cannon and WVR missiles of MKI. 

Cheers!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Manticore

Keep silly images out of your posts --- next time there will be infractions


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Your own countrymen claimed that mirages are limited to WVR while you continued with your rant. Turn back to check.



Iam only here to fix your rants. Im sorry. 




> Guns would be less effective as compared to WVR missiles against less agile fighters. Again, reply only after understanding the context, idiot.



So you mean your flankers will prefer to loose a $85000 r-73 on lets say our Il78s or some C-130 which i suppose would not be as agile as your divine flanker instead of letting go 50 rounds of vulcan cannon which may roughly cost $3000 to the tax payer of India. Not a good bargain I think. Are really on Indian side? 




> Then tell me why will a MKI enter a dogfight when it still has it BVR missiles or shut up. Give me a scenario where that will be useful.



You want a scenario? Lets make one! MKI enters Pakistani airspace over lahore. Manages to get onto the tail of the chasing JF-17 but WAITs for it create a distance of atleast 5-6 Kilometers so that it may utilze its R-77. He will never touch the guns because a retard at defence.pk thinks guns are supposed to be used when BEYOND VISUAL RANGE missiles are used up! How fancy is that? 




> I am claiming that BVR is more effective than WVR. That is why the world is moving towards BVR. Look at F35 whose WVR capability is as good as ****.



Obama should shoot the Raythoens CEO for intiating the AIM-9X programme and draining down billions of dollars of US taxpayer money because the SAME RETARD thinks that WVR missiles are a waste and no longer needed. 

Instead of telling some dozen other members here to 'shut up' why dont you shut the 'eff" up and get the 'eff' out of this thread? Or I have a better idea! Join some IAF instuctor school and help PAF in saving our jets from cannon and WVR missiles of MKI. 

Cheers!


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> So you mean your flankers will prefer to loose a $85000 r-73 on lets say our Il78s or some C-130 which i suppose would not be as agile as your divine flanker instead of letting go 50 rounds of vulcan cannon which may roughly cost $3000 to the tax payer of India. Not a good bargain I think. Are really on Indian side?



Actually our flankers will use neither R73 nor cannon for that purpose. We will use R77.



> You want a scenario? Lets make one! MKI enters Pakistani airspace over lahore. Manages to get onto the tail of the chasing JF-17 but WAITs for it create a distance of atleast 5-6 Kilometers so that it may utilze its R-77. He will never touch the guns because a retard at defence.pk thinks guns are supposed to be used when BEYOND VISUAL RANGE missiles are used up! How fancy is that?



Tell me one thing, how did JF17 reached there? It was already flying there wasn't it? So, MKI would have detected it before entering Lahore and would have fired R77 before itself.



> Obama should shoot the Raythoens CEO for intiating the AIM-9X programme and draining down billions of dollars of US taxpayer money because the SAME RETARD thinks that WVR missiles are a waste and no longer needed.
> 
> Instead of telling some dozen other members here to 'shut up' why dont you shut the 'eff" up and get the 'eff' out of this thread? Or I have a better idea! Join some IAF instuctor school and help PAF in saving our jets from cannon and WVR missiles of MKI.
> 
> Cheers!



Another silly post. When I say BVR is more effective than WVR, it somehow gets interpreted as "*the SAME RETARD thinks that WVR missiles are a waste and no longer needed.*"

Next I will say that assault rifle is more effective than a pistol and you will interpret it as "the Same RETARD thinks that pistol are a waste and are no longer needed."

No words needed. You can continue to to delusion yourself. I will not reply to you anymore. You compatriots like maverick may know lesser than you do but they atleast have the ability to read.


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I haven't said PAF does not have BVR missile. *I have said your Mirages aren't BVR capable.*



Oh yes, they are! Ever since ROSE upgrades!





Shadow_Hunter said:


> I will post everything you want me to. After you can define the term "kill probabilty" of a missile. And please give a source as well from where you give this definition. If you can't, shut up.



Hit a nerve, have I, lol!!

Provide details of BVR engagements of Russian BVR Missiles, the releases and kills. That will determine the kill probability and then find the same for the American Missiles. Perhaps, then, you will rest your senseless yapping.


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Actually our flankers will use neither R73 nor cannon for that purpose. We will use R77.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me one thing, how did JF17 reached there? It was already flying there wasn't it? So, MKI would have detected it before entering Lahore and would have fired R77 before itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Another silly post. When I say BVR is more effective than WVR, it somehow gets interpreted as "*the SAME RETARD thinks that WVR missiles are a waste and no longer needed.*"
> 
> Next I will say that assault rifle is more effective than a pistol and you will interpret it as "the Same RETARD thinks that pistol are a waste and are no longer needed."
> 
> No words needed. You can continue to to delusion yourself. I will not reply to you anymore. You compatriots like maverick may know lesser than you do but they atleast have the ability to read.



Its better if you dont. And im glad that you decided to shut the EF up.

On a last note, turn the pages honey. Just to defend your idiotic claims you have derailed the F-35's WVR capability while being ignorant about the its capability to field AIM-9X and JHMCS which will turn any jet with even a TVC into a ball of fire.

Next you are put the guns after BVR missiles only because you did not want to learn from Vietnam. Sad


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> No it does not...
> You said they they ordered/have Aim120C7... *FACEPLAM*
> I provided enough pictures for you to see... may be your Brain could not process that.
> 
> Here again... a few Images.
> 
> And you still wonder...



es it does!!
Having trouble posting then? Check your post, accept your mistake and post again!
You mean pictures of IAF & RSAF pilots standing together? Is that what you mean by study? Next time there is an airshow where they display the F-35 & F-22 you must send your pilots for higher studies. Perhaps that's how you evaluated the performance of JFT by looking at brochure pictures! LOL. You are getting seriously pathetic and irony is that you most like know that already!

And yet I am sure!!





DARKY said:


> What are you ?
> You cannot understand simple language and keep on ranting proof.
> 
> I gave the proof... as simple as it gets... read the post again... try to understand... If you can't get some one to make you understand as simple as that.
> 
> you don't know what are radars how they work.. what is phased array and what are planar arrays... what are TRMMs and what How different range of frequencies work in illuminating or tracking a target.
> You don't know how the RCS works with additional pay load.... *FACEPLAM*
> The Mig 21bison armed with 2 RVV-AE and a EL/L-8222 pod would still have RCS below 2m^2 allowing that to get within the striking range against and Ere-eye type target.
> 
> What ever I said till now went over your head.
> 
> There is no substitute for a Dumb brain and on top of that deliberate stupidity.



So you cannot understand simple posted messages right, perhaps you can understand a single word, let me spell it out for you "P R O O F"!!!

And I can understand your frustration at not being able to back any single claim with proof. You wanna live in a fairyland by all means do, but do not force the rest of us to follow. And dude, keep things linear, stop jumping here and there from RCS to TRMM to what not when demanded proof of Bisons's RCS (Clean).

*Starting again, provide proof of Bisons clean RCS of 1m^2, provide proof of detection of 1m^2 targets at 400km's and beyond by the Phalcon and provide proof of Israeli involvement in KJ2K. Otherwise.........well, you know!*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## danger007

@Indians members... why you guys wasting time by talking some kid who arguing like child... and who don't have work... common guys you don't need to make him believe....


----------



## airomerix

Next time PAF pilots go to redflag. They will make sure that they get to drink a cup of coffee with couple of raptor pilots so that couple of idiots here may know that PAF has blue prints of the F-22. Pathetic and useless rants!


----------



## abdulbarijan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I have never said WVR will never occur. I have always said that rate of WVR will go on decreasing. Already BVR is the dominant form of action, and WVR is receding. Is it so hard to comprehend?
> 
> I haven't said PAF does not have BVR missile. I have said your Mirages aren't BVR capable.



I gave you* a link from "times of India" saying other wise*, as far as BVR combat goes... ok lets talk about it .. 

You say *WVR is receding and will decrease further in the future ...*

What happens *when two stealth aircrafts (the future) face each other* ?? (BVR of WVR) 

Since there is no other stealth fighter except the raptor lets take a *raptor vs raptor scenario* 

*APG-77 has a range of 300 odd KM for 5m2 RCS
The raptor's rumored RCS is 0.0001 m2*

So put it in the equation *you get 20 Km detection range from the front*, which is nearly *WVR combat*, so you can deny it, but the fact is *WVR will be there and it will be of grave importance* otherwise you wont have scientists figuring out ways to get better turn rates, climb rates 
and all that ---

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## danger007

airomerix said:


> Next time PAF pilots go to redflag. They will make sure that they get to drink a cup of coffee with couple of raptor pilots so that couple of idiots here may know that PAF has blue prints of the F-22. Pathetic and useless rants!



that BASE is Indian base... fielded only F-16's.... you are just fool to think we will give our base to other countries... just for money... If it is like that... we might give our base to USA or some other country already... we are not like Pak... Indian air force pilots went have flew F-16 ... look once in mirror...


----------



## Skull and Bones

airomerix said:


> Next time PAF pilots go to redflag. They will make sure that they get to drink a cup of coffee with couple of raptor pilots so that couple of idiots here may know that PAF has blue prints of the F-22. Pathetic and useless rants!



http://www.f-16.net/news_article1353.html


----------



## Hellraiser007

India has the info about F16 through singapore and MMRCA tender which evaluated close to staggering 660 parameters(We are also trying to patent the evaluation process). India also has powerful radars (AWACS and ground based) to know every move of PAF inside Pakistan.

India can teach a lesson to PAF at any time with su 30 MKI . The air doctrine and procurement going on now is aimed at maintaining IAF superiority in Indian subcontinent for decades to come.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Hellraiser007 said:


> India has the info about F16 through singapore and MMRCA tender which evaluated close to staggering 660 parameters(We are also trying to patent the evaluation process). India also has powerful radars (AWACS and ground based) to know every move of PAF inside Pakistan.
> 
> India can teach a lesson to PAF at any time with su 30 MKI . The air doctrine and procurement going on now is aimed at maintaining IAF superiority in Indian subcontinent for decades to come.



So just to bring reality into the pic......IAF's superiority in Indian subcontinent.....are you including China and Pakistan...? Because you can never obtain 'IAF' air superiority without escalating to the last resort!!! 
I've noticed that people like you from India, have a VERY hard time in understanding the reality. Will IAF be big in numbers and all?? Sure. Will it ever achieve 'air superiority' over Pakistani or the Chinese airspace....NO, not unless the Indian military establishment is willing to take India back about 50 years and of course, destroy half the Pakistan too. Remember, in which case, I'd recommend you watch those early days tv shows from the 1940's....if that's where you want to be, then you should try such silly attempts.

Between India and Pakistan, there is no superiority of anything. There is just total escalation and that'll result in losses you probably can't understand. Indian military planners know this too and that's why they haven't been gunge-ho about attacking Pakistan. Anyone with three times the numbers of decent modern jets can eventually 'teach a lesson' to the other, specially in a prolong war's scenario. So please keep the macho-man mentality to yourself and lets post something productive to debate on.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## airomerix

Skull and Bones said:


> http://www.f-16.net/news_article1353.html



Will you consider it even if I post some pictures of PAF pilots prior and after flights of J-11?


----------



## Hellraiser007

orangzaib said:


> So just to bring reality into the pic......IAF's superiority in Indian subcontinent.....are you including China and Pakistan...? Because you can never obtain 'IAF' air superiority without escalating to the last resort!!!
> I've noticed that people like you from India, have a VERY hard time in understanding the reality. Will IAF be big in numbers and all?? Sure. Will it ever achieve 'air superiority' over Pakistani or the Chinese airspace....NO, not unless the Indian military establishment is willing to take India back about 50 years and of course, destroy half the Pakistan too. Remember, in which case, I'd recommend you watch those early days tv shows from the 1940's....if that's where you want to be, then you should try such silly attempts.
> 
> Between India and Pakistan, there is no superiority of anything. There is just total escalation and that'll result in losses you probably can't understand. Indian military planners know this too and that's why they haven't been gunge-ho about attacking Pakistan. Anyone with three times the numbers of decent modern jets can eventually 'teach a lesson' to the other, specially in a prolong war's scenario. So please keep the macho-man mentality to yourself and lets post something productive to debate on.



China is a different scenario and plz stay on topic. The thread is related to How PAF will counter su 30 MKI and my post goes well with it.


----------



## airomerix

Hellraiser007 said:


> China is a different scenario and plz stay on topic. The thread is related to How PAF will counter su 30 MKI and my post goes well with it.



Read the last past paragraph of his post with open eyes please. And TWICE if possible.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

airomerix said:


> Will you consider it even if I post some pictures of PAF pilots prior and after flights of J-11?



That's not pilot's photo sessions, that's an article about pilot exchange program. You didn't even read it.


----------



## airomerix

Skull and Bones said:


> That's not pilot's photo sessions, that's an article about pilot exchange program. You didn't even read it.



And what makes you think PAF pilots traveled 2000km to the north for some random clicks with the J-11? Explanation please!


----------



## Hellraiser007

airomerix said:


> Read the last past paragraph of his post with open eyes please. And TWICE if possible.



Mate We are only discussing about scenario of Su 30 MKI dogfight with PAF not war

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Viper0011.

Hellraiser007 said:


> Mate We are only discussing about scenario of Su 30 MKI dogfight with PAF not war



Ok, so now life goes from the universe down to a village. Just SU-30 dogfight when the first post was talking about 'IAF obtaining Air Superiority over the Sub Continent and teaching PAF a lesson'.....entirely different discussion and contradictory don't you think?

In Dog Fight, F-16 will hold its own. It's been testing and proven. It takes out F-15's in Dog Fights....and Dog Fight's why PAF bought it. You realize PAF has amazed Western air forces with its Dog Fighting skills right? I'd stay away from that as that's PAF's forte. Plus future is really BRV...and even that through unmanned.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Storm Force

Orangzaib

NO OFFENCE but 160 su30mki can ACHIEVE air superority over PAF which is 75% obselete F7 & ,IRAGE ROSE upgrades.

PAF wil be lucky to keep IAF out for more than 72 hours max.

SHORT OF SUPPLIES. MATERIAL THEY WIL RESULT to tacical nukes 

COVENTIONAL BOTH THE PAK AIRFORCE & ESPECIALLY NAVY WILL STRUGGLE big time

THIS GAP WILL WIDEN due to india,s massive economic advantage of $10 to $1


----------



## airomerix

Hellraiser007 said:


> Mate We are only discussing about scenario of *Su 30 MKI dogfight with PAF* not war



Now that made me really sad.

I want to bring it in your notice that one of your Major thinks there would be no more dogfights as R-73 and other short range missiles are loaded to enhance the beauty of your MKI. If you do not believe me then you can search pg no. 97,98 and 99.

Secondly if we are not discussing 'war' then thats even better. We can catch your intruding MKI and shoot it down while the international community pardons us because that MKI was over Pakistani airspace. No?


----------



## MZUBAIR

I dont think PAF have any solid reply for Su30 ...!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Skull and Bones

airomerix said:


> And what makes you think PAF pilots traveled 2000km to the north for some random clicks with the J-11? Explanation please!



Your matter, doesn't concern us. 

MKI and J-11 doesn't even have the same aerodynamic characteristics. Go on.


----------



## silent hawk

One aspect which I believe needs considerations is Pakistan's VERA-E system which enables Pakistan to classify ememy aircrafts while they are across the border. This means that PAF will know when a SU 30 is approaching the border and hence can have better employment techniques. As long as Pakistan can deploy block 52 against Su 30 it has a good chance of success.

Training is another factor. India's lack of a dedicated jet trainer means PAF pilots are better trained.

Better employment conditions and training give PAF the edge.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> Oh yes, they are! Ever since ROSE upgrades!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hit a nerve, have I, lol!!
> 
> Provide details of BVR engagements of Russian BVR Missiles, the releases and kills. That will determine the kill probability and then find the same for the American Missiles. Perhaps, then, you will rest your senseless yapping.



We are back to the circle with Rose upgrades.

I am saying I will post everything. Just define "kill probability" with a reliable source first. It shouldn't be too hard for you, since you claim to know that "kill probability" of Russian BVRs is less than that of American BVR. Is it so hard for you to post just one definition?


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

abdulbarijan said:


> I gave you* a link from "times of India" saying other wise*, as far as BVR combat goes... ok lets talk about it ..
> 
> You say *WVR is receding and will decrease further in the future ...*
> 
> What happens *when two stealth aircrafts (the future) face each other* ?? (BVR of WVR)
> 
> Since there is no other stealth fighter except the raptor lets take a *raptor vs raptor scenario*
> 
> *APG-77 has a range of 300 odd KM for 5m2 RCS
> The raptor's rumored RCS is 0.0001 m2*
> 
> So put it in the equation *you get 20 Km detection range from the front*, which is nearly *WVR combat*, so you can deny it, but the fact is *WVR will be there and it will be of grave importance* otherwise you wont have scientists figuring out ways to get better turn rates, climb rates
> and all that ---



First of all, its a rumor. Both the RCS of F22 and detection range of APG-77. Secondly radars go advancements all the time. Once again, I have never said WVR will never occur. Answer just simple questions?

Is BVR the dominant form of combat today when air superiority aircrafts face off?
Is the ratio of BVR engagements today higher than it was yesterday?

Scientists spend time figuring out better turn rates, climb rates, etc. But the newer US airforce doctrine is of the one to avoid dogfights and perform hit and runs by detecting the adversary first and launch its missile. Is it true or not?


----------



## Mav3rick

abdulbarijan said:


> ummmm....Your post is reported for the bolded parts --- and lastly for the part highlighted in red --
> 
> *You did that after 26/11 where the whole indian media and nation demanded surgical strikes and the media released reports of the great IAF awaiting the green signal only to chicken out when PAF promised for an equal response* ....



The green signal was supposed to come from the US ensuring that PAF would not respond. That would have given IAF and the overall Indian Government a major chest thumping position in the world and at the same time would have consolidated Pakistan for showing restraint and for not pursuing or engaging IAF/India in taking out "alleged" terrorist camps.

However, the Civilian Government could not guarantee a subdued, vocal only response and the Military outright rejected the demands. This was not well taken by the US Government.

India and IAF's hope of an engagement free "precision strike" evaporated as soon as they were delivered the message by the US ambassador that PAF was ready & itching for the challenge!



Hobo1 said:


> Dawood bhai jaan and his gang control the hawala channel through which Indian politicans and Indian rich send their money to swiss bank. Now Sonia and her gangs doesn't want to spoil this by attacking Pakistan.
> And Indian sunni will not like IAF attacking Pakistan. even when 1\4 of dead in 26\11 were Muslim. Congress party will not want to loose its ever growing sunni vote bank by attacking Pak.
> 
> *And had India attacked Pakistan at time of 26\11, then it would have given PA a pretext to move its troops from Afghan border.*



I don't agree with the first part and Indian Muslims support India in case of war with Pakistan. I know that for a fact. The second part, I can somewhat agree that yes Pakistan would have had to focus entirely on Indian front in case of a war.

But, my friend, can you tell me what the cause was for you to amass almsot a million soldiers at our border to only, unilaterally and unconditionally, withdraw? Not only that, in that 6+ month time period, why could you not cross even an inch of LoC??

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> We are back to the circle with Rose upgrades.
> 
> I am saying I will post everything. Just define "kill probability" with a reliable source first. It shouldn't be too hard for you, since you claim to know that "kill probability" of Russian BVRs is less than that of American BVR. Is it so hard for you to post just one definition?



Definition of a kill probability would be hits:launches. Now you may run along and find how many Russian BVR's have been fired to date and even more importantly, how many have hit any target at all. Similarly, find details of American BVR engagements. Hopefully, you will understand how effective your MKI would actually be when it's shot down 40-50km's away while it has also wasted 2-4 expensive BVR Missiles.

Literally, detection is only a part of the game, the bigger challenge is shooting down the adversary and this is where PAF trumps IAF, both in BVR and WVR.


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> es it does!!
> Having trouble posting then? Check your post, accept your mistake and post again!
> You mean pictures of IAF & RSAF pilots standing together? Is that what you mean by study? Next time there is an airshow where they display the F-35 & F-22 you must send your pilots for higher studies. Perhaps that's how you evaluated the performance of JFT by looking at brochure pictures! LOL. You are getting seriously pathetic and irony is that you most like know that already!
> 
> And yet I am sure!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you cannot understand simple posted messages right, perhaps you can understand a single word, let me spell it out for you "P R O O F"!!!
> 
> And I can understand your frustration at not being able to back any single claim with proof. You wanna live in a fairyland by all means do, but do not force the rest of us to follow. And dude, keep things linear, stop jumping here and there from RCS to TRMM to what not when demanded proof of Bisons's RCS (Clean).
> 
> *Starting again, provide proof of Bisons clean RCS of 1m^2, provide proof of detection of 1m^2 targets at 400km's and beyond by the Phalcon and provide proof of Israeli involvement in KJ2K. Otherwise.........well, you know!*



Offcourse in your dreams.
And we are yet to see a single JF-17 in service with PAF armed with any BVR whatsoever.

There shows the inability of your pathetic brain again.... they are not just standing together.. they are returning from shorties on F-16block52 some of which you can see parked in the back ground... Singapore Airforce pilots [who have been veterans on F-16 and have more pilots with over 2000 and 1000 hours than what the PAF ever had.. perhaps double the number or even more.] are talking about their birds.

And this is not airshow [I can understand that your poor IQ brain cannot differentiate between air shows and air exercises]... But Air exercise and Training which has been going on in India for about five years or so... I won't be surprised If a few IAF pilots already made it the 100hrs club on F-16block52.

And you were flying the JF-17 to conclude its performance... 


Good to see that you can spell words correctly atleast.

I gave the "P R O O F"... in my previous posts... go and *read* that again... ranting the same thing over and over again doesn't change it.

No body is forcing you to come out of your well... you are better suited to stay there.

That was the point.. you don't understand terms such as RCS, TRMMs... and yet commenting on those.


----------



## DARKY

ANTIBODY said:


> Keep silly images out of your posts --- next time there will be infractions



What do you expect when people from your side are outright Denialist.
Claiming things like...

*JF-17 using Aim120.*
*PAF having Aim120C7.*
*The peak power ratings for KLJ-7 is not 550W.*[for this he couldn't even come up with his usual imaginary number/stats]
*F-16 datalinked with Chinese AEW&C and JF-17 datalinked with SAAB eri-eye.*

cannot differentiate between airshows and air exercise.
Doesn't read what was answered and ask for the same answers again.
Perhaps you could have some effect... answer about bold parts before deleting this post.


----------



## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> Orangzaib
> NO OFFENCE but 160 su30mki can ACHIEVE air superority over PAF which is 75% obselete F7 & ,IRAGE ROSE upgrades.



One sentence response: At The Cost Of What?????

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

abdulbarijan said:


> *Actually the PAF already possesses the Aim-120 C-5's
> 
> And if you wanna compare so that there is no room for doubt then go ahead....*



Why you showing this to me ?


----------



## GURU DUTT

wow the thread was how PAF will counter the threat posted by SU30MKI

and there is all kind of verbal jingoism that can be imagined but not one post that can clearli say and 101 pages lost 

well what they posted here to support there argument was 

1. PAF will *in future* have 150 JF17 Block XYZ + 80 F16 52's +50 J10B's +150 other aircraft to defend pakistani air space and they have AWACS cover wich will see MKI's from 200 km's and will shoot it down before it can post any thread...but but 

in reality its not just 180MKI's(rest will be for eastern front) that they have to think though they very vell know the power of elctronikk hokus phokus MKI's have on boared and it can onli on its strenth alone can enhilate any thing PAF deu to its massive load carrying capacity , a radar wich has no equevelent right now in sub continent(dont bring chinese as they are not goint to fight with IAF ) + all the BVR's& WWR's(missiles)on board MKI's of Israeli , french & russian origins coupled by french HMS IFF systems+Israeli jammers with baking of all french , israeli & russian ground based and airborn radars with net centrik cabality aided by Indian Sat cover

2. now they think IAF pilots are sitting DUCKS as compred to Divine PAF pilots ......

well guess what it isnt 40 years back infra we are having now we have every thing better and bigger than pakistani fan boys ever could imagine both in training and multi national expouser and training inputs(from russian, french israeli & singapori friends)

3.Pakistani AWACS Radars and pakistani SAM wont let IAF have a commanding position.....

well to start with Indian green pines and swordsish + french and israeli + russian radars already see as far beyond as Afghanistan already and we know as what takes of any pakistani airbase well before what pakistani sees within india coupled with sat cover enaballed phalcons wich can locate a threat as far as Afganistan flying well over hundred miles within indian territory & least we forget Indian AAD , PAD ,and other AA bateries which i dont thnk even likes of PALF(though thats main pakistani dream that they will come to rescue) would easy about forget PAF lolzz



4.PAF will enhilate all INDIAN air bases within mins if not hours of starting the war

thought the reality is PAF is now a defending air force which was not the case 40 years back so waeky waeky and IAF will dictate where and when it wants to fight (big diff) + ever wonder what IAF has in store if ever pakistani cruise missiles and airpalnes try to repeate what they achived in 1965

*
so in short 101 pages wasted and Paksitani freinds are yet to give any substantial answer to MKI threat forget about upgraded MIG's , M2K's among others *

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Major Sam

GURU DUTT said:


> wow the thread was how PAF will counter the threat posted by SU30MKI
> 
> and there is all kind of verbal jingoism that can be imagined but not one post that can clearli say and 101 pages lost
> 
> well what they posted here to support there argument was
> 
> 1. PAF will *in future* have 150 JF17 Block XYZ + 80 F16 52's +50 J10B's +150 other aircraft to defend pakistani air space and they have AWACS cover wich will see MKI's from 200 km's and will shoot it down before it can post any thread...but but
> 
> in reality its not just 180MKI's(rest will be for eastern front) that they have to think though they very vell know the power of elctronikk hokus phokus MKI's have on boared and it can onli on its strenth alone can enhilate any thing PAF deu to its massive load carrying capacity , a radar wich has no equevelent right now in sub continent(dont bring chinese as they are not goint to fight with IAF ) + all the BVR's& WWR's(missiles)on board MKI's of Israeli , french & russian origins coupled by french HMS IFF systems+Israeli jammers with baking of all french , israeli & russian ground based and airborn radars with net centrik cabality aided by Indian Sat cover
> 
> 2. now they think IAF pilots are sitting DUCKS as compred to Divine PAF pilots ......
> 
> well guess what it isnt 40 years back infra we are having now we have every thing better and bigger than pakistani fan boys ever could imagine both in training and multi national expouser and training inputs(from russian, french israeli & singapori friends)
> 
> 3.Pakistani AWACS Radars and pakistani SAM wont let IAF have a commanding position.....
> 
> well to start with Indian green pines and swordsish + french and israeli + russian radars already see as far beyond as Afghanistan already and we know as what takes of any pakistani airbase well before what pakistani sees within india coupled with sat cover enaballed phalcons wich can locate a threat as far as Afganistan flying well over hundred miles within indian territory & least we forget Indian AAD , PAD ,and other AA bateries which i dont thnk even likes of PALF(though thats main pakistani dream that they will come to rescue) would easy about forget PAF lolzz
> 
> 
> 
> 4.PAF will enhilate all INDIAN air bases within mins if not hours of starting the war
> 
> thought the reality is PAF is now a defending air force which was not the case 40 years back so waeky waeky and IAF will dictate where and when it wants to fight (big diff) + ever wonder what IAF has in store if ever pakistani cruise missiles and airpalnes try to repeate what they achived in 1965
> 
> *
> so in short 101 pages wasted and Paksitani freinds are yet to give any substantial answer to MKI threat forget about upgraded MIG's , M2K's among others *



THanks for your Cooperation. Please go back to your home and sleep Tight. You need Rest buddy.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## GURU DUTT

usama waqas said:


> THanks for your Cooperation. Please go back to your home and sleep Tight. You need Rest buddy.



no sir just came to office a couple of hours back ......its too cold and i reaali want to go haome and have some XXX Rum &warmth  

But sir ji kaam nahi karoonga to rotee kaun dega meree koi jageeren t hai nahi

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> Definition of a kill probability would be hits:launches. Now you may run along and find how many Russian BVR's have been fired to date and even more importantly, how many have hit any target at all. Similarly, find details of American BVR engagements. Hopefully, you will understand how effective your MKI would actually be when it's shot down 40-50km's away while it has also wasted 2-4 expensive BVR Missiles.
> 
> Literally, detection is only a part of the game, the bigger challenge is shooting down the adversary and this is where PAF trumps IAF, both in BVR and WVR.



Kindly, don't invent your own definitions. Post a definition with a proper source. I just want to see when was the term kill probability for a missile was invented by intellectuals.

Hint: A term like "Kill probability of a BVR missile" cannot exist.


----------



## abdulbarijan

Hobo1 said:


> Dawood bhai jaan and his gang control the hawala channel through which Indian politicans and Indian rich send their money to swiss bank. Now Sonia and her gangs doesn't want to spoil this by attacking Pakistan.
> And Indian sunni will not like IAF attacking Pakistan. even when 1\4 of dead in 26\11 were Muslim. Congress party will not want to loose its ever growing sunni vote bank by attacking Pak.
> 
> And had India attacked Pakistan at time of 26\11, then it would have given PA a pretext to move its troops from Afghan border.



OOh--- the same bad Pakistan that was responsible for giving millions to rescue your citizen when you talk about your booming economy and all .... but my answer was never really to you it was to someone who was using sarcasm while personally attacking the nationality and race of an esteemed member ....


----------



## abdulbarijan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> First of all, its a rumor. Both the RCS of F22 and detection range of APG-77. Secondly radars go advancements all the time. Once again, I have never said WVR will never occur. Answer just simple questions?
> 
> Is BVR the dominant form of combat today when air superiority aircrafts face off?
> Is the ratio of BVR engagements today higher than it was yesterday?



I took the figures from F-16.net, anyways what the heck --- umm depends on the superiority aircrafts your talking about, the BVR missiles are not just shot 150-170 odd Km's away from the target ...its like wasting your missiles --- in today's world you have bvr shots in like 50-70 odd Km range, and even then you cant say 100 percent success because even aircrafts like JF-17 are now equipt with *EW suites*, you have a whole array of *jamming equipment* --- You now have equipment *warning you about missiles approaching* your aircraft ---- 

Even today BVR cannot be deemed really successful, because of these factors, the only time it can be successful is that when the target aircraft is and the attacker has a difference of an entire generation -- (4th and 5th) --- only then can you say---ohk *one side will overwhelm the other due to BVR capabilities* .... Now taking in two fighters which approach each other at high subsonic or supersonic speeds how much time till they get in to a merge after their BVR fails to get the job done ?? and then again the WVR is inevitable ...





> Scientists spend time figuring out better turn rates, climb rates, etc. But the newer US airforce doctrine is of the one to avoid dogfights and perform hit and runs by detecting the adversary first and launch its missile. Is it true or not?



What happens to that doctrine when the likes of* PLAAF field J-20 and Russia fields PAK-FA *--- There is a reason you *have guns and super maneuverability on an F-22*, because the Americans know they are ahead but the world will catch up eventually and when that happens (the future) there will be WVR again ....


----------



## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> I took the figures from F-16.net, anyways what the heck --- umm depends on the superiority aircrafts your talking about, the BVR missiles are not just shot 150-170 odd Km's away from the target ...its like wasting your missiles --- in today's world you have bvr shots in like 50-70 odd Km range, and even then you cant say 100 percent success because even aircrafts like JF-17 are now equipt with *EW suites*, you have a whole array of *jamming equipment* --- You now have equipment *warning you about missiles approaching* your aircraft ----
> 
> Even today BVR cannot be deemed really successful, because of these factors, the only time it can be successful is that when the target aircraft is and the attacker has a difference of an entire generation -- (4th and 5th) --- only then can you say---ohk *one side will overwhelm the other due to BVR capabilities* .... Now taking in two fighters which approach each other at high subsonic or supersonic speeds how much time till they get in to a merge after their BVR fails to get the job done ?? and then again the WVR is inevitable ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What happens to that doctrine when the likes of PLAAF field J-20 and Russia fields PAK-FA --- There is a reason you have guns and super maneuverability on an F-22, because the Americans know they are ahead but the world will catch up eventually and when that happens (the future) there will be WVR again* ....


well sir the thread is about SU30MKI& how PAF counters it well as for BVR's sir be rest assured onli if few pakistanies and there freinds think the range of BVR's in indian inoventarry is 70-80KM's well we are more happy if you beleve so (there is no better enemy whos over confident and deilliosioned about its enemies real cabailities)

about Stealth Planes well they wont be in south asian theater for at least one decade so forget about them 

and about chinese fielding there super stealth planes for aiding PAF well there is a story that comes to my mind 

boy 1...se my dad bought me a new Bike(gleeming with pride showing of to naighbour hood kids)

Boy 2...my uncle has a bigger and better bike than this (burning in jealousy)

now who is boy1, boy 2 , uncle & the bike go figure

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir the thread is about SU30MKI& how PAF counters it well as for BVR's sir be rest assured onli if few pakistanies and there freinds think the range of BVR's in indian inoventarry is 70-80KM's well we are more happy if you beleve so (there is no better enemy whos over confident and deilliosioned about its enemies real cabailities)



I never said that--- however If you wanna continue believing that your pilots are so stupid that they *will try and shoot a BVR missile on its max ranges* -- then I have no words for you --- 




> about Stealth Planes well they wont be in south asian theater for at least one decade so forget about them
> 
> and about chinese fielding there super stealth planes for aiding PAF well there is a story that comes to my mind
> 
> boy 1...se my dad bought me a new Bike(gleeming with pride showing of to naighbour hood kids)
> 
> Boy 2...my uncle has a bigger and better bike than this (burning in jealousy)
> 
> now who is boy1, boy 2 , uncle & the bike go figure





I never talked about China aiding Pakistan -- infact the only time I came close was when I said India would need to field some of its assets near the Chinese border as a safety insurance ...

Hats off for the "Nice stories", but the fact is you didn't see the context--- you just saw your fellow member getting owned in his own points (BVR being the future and the dominant course of action)---

Well actually this is how the story really goes

* boy 1 (starts gleaming with pride) : This bike is soo awesome its got this and that --- and 10 years from now (if my plans stay on course and economy stays stable) I will get this bike !!!*


----------



## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> I never said that--- however If you wanna continue believing that your pilots are so stupid that they *will try and shoot a BVR missile on its max ranges* -- then I have no words for you ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never talked about China aiding Pakistan -- infact the only time I came close was when I said India would need to field some of its assets near the Chinese border as a safety insurance ...
> 
> Hats of for the "Nice stories", but the fact is you didn't see the context--- you just saw your fellow member getting owned in his own points (BVR being the future and the dominant course of action)---
> 
> Well actually this is how the story really goes
> 
> * boy 1 (starts gleaming with pride) : 10 years from now (if my plans stay on course and economy stays stable) I will get this bike !!!*


well to start with well sir try to read what some of your poasters said i just replied as its a norm here that when paksitani fan boys have no answer they start cribbing about chinese might and in my earlier post if u can see i said onli 180 MKI's are for western front rest will be stationed for eastern front and same ratio goes for all other war planes and IAF & IA assets 

now about the bike well if we have a bike today (3 foot child=MKI) then in 10 years we will have *(geared one MRCA & a mobike FGFA) now what will you do about it then as we have already started the process required
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...5R-z03-hd69JjLTiDD-PQ&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...SCod5bjesbPahlz3dpj7A&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk


http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...HysgR8vUF7hwerTMBeAQA&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk


----------



## Black Widow

Breaking News: PAF is not considering buying J10B aka FC20, Rather PAF will go with FC1 aka JF17 block II and III. Alongside PAF is planning to buy more F16s... 


So now PAF has FC1 and F16 left.. ... 


Source "FC20 J10 thread in PAF subforum"

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> well to start with well sir try to read what some of your poasters said i just replied as its a norm here that when paksitani fan boys have no answer they start cribbing about chinese might and in my earlier post if u can see i said onli 180 MKI's are for china rest will be stationed for eastern front and same ratio goes for all other war planes and IAF & IA assets



IAF now has around 160+ MKI's, the last time I checked ... Now as for China and Pakistan, isn't it the same norm from Indian posters when they start crippling under the *"Chinese reality"* they start about Chinese fighters being* copies of russian fighters*, that russian *"original"* fighters are far more superior, that the international technology they have access to beats the Chinese--

*So before pointing fingers at others try pointing one in the mirror .. *

*As far as the MKI's ratio you give, its nearly a 65% for China and 35%* (assuming 180 Mki's for China out of 270 total planned) *for Pakistan* distribution, going by that in the current scenario of 160-170 odd MKI's *we have only 60 odd MKI's to worry about --*

*Now all this is calculated based on your own distribution*, and we have 18 block 50/52's + 5 MLU's on the same level in avionics and the weaponry, with 40 F-16 A/B and 40-50 JF-17's, a fully developed C4I with SAAB AWACS and ZDK-03 based on the CHinese KJ-2000 AWACS and ground based SAMS and Manpads to take care of that and your other force of Mig-21's/29's and M2k's ----




> now about the bike well if we have a bike today (3 foot child=MKI) then in 10 years we will have *(geared one MRCA & a mobike FGFA) now what will you do about it then as we have already started the process required
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...5R-z03-hd69JjLTiDD-PQ&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk
> 
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...SCod5bjesbPahlz3dpj7A&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk
> 
> 
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...HysgR8vUF7hwerTMBeAQA&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk





Good for you, but let me remind you of a mini-bike that you wanted to make and started the process in the early 80's and wanted it to complete in the 90's --- and its been more than a decade after the deadline and your still like --- 

*"the mini bike will get FOC soon enough ... but atleast its 65% indigenous " *


----------



## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> IAF now has around 160+ MKI's, the last time I checked ... Now as for China and Pakistan, isn't it the same norm from Indian posters when they start crippling under the *"Chinese reality"* they start about Chinese fighters being* copies of russian fighters*, that russian *"original"* fighters are far more superior, that the international technology they have access to beats the Chinese--
> 
> *So before pointing fingers at others try pointing one in the mirror .. *
> 
> *As far as the MKI's ratio you give, its nearly a 65% for China and 35%* (assuming 180 Mki's for China out of 270 total planned) *for Pakistan* distribution, going by that in the current scenario of 160-170 odd MKI's *we have only 60 odd MKI's to worry about --*
> 
> *Now all this is calculated based on your own distribution*, and we have 18 block 50/52's + 5 MLU's on the same level in avionics and the weaponry, with 40 F-16 A/B and 40-50 JF-17's, a fully developed C4I with SAAB AWACS and ZDK-03 based on the CHinese KJ-2000 AWACS and ground based SAMS and Manpads to take care of that and your other force of Mig-21's/29's and M2k's ----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you, but let me remind you of a mini-bike that you wanted to make --- and its been 2 decades and your still like ---
> 
> *"the mini bike will get FOC soon enough ... but atleast its 65% indigenous " *



well sir if i take your nombers into account then dont worry we add 20 of them to force every year and even if you take 65% of 160 it is still well over 104 MKI's which means almost 6 Sqads with 2Phalcons(1 for eastern front)& 3 greenpines(which can see deep until afghanistan and cover whole pakistani air space as of now ) among others(Israeli+french and russian AA bateries & 3D radars) which will have to stand against say 50 as of now JF17's & some 60 F16 52's + 3 sweedish & two Chinese AWACS(well after MAY 2011 im not a great fan of pakistani ground based radars) so whats your point now as i dont think it will be a big problem since we have well over 8 years of training owr inferior pilots on them but as i know you still dont have more than couple of years for the same for your super dupar JF17's & F16'52s and im not countiong any other IAF assets 

and about when we will get owr geared cycles & mobikes well sir i guess im very positive that the geared one will start coming in couple of years and were in not a very big rush for owr mobikes as of yet

and least we forget the mini bike sir then again we are not loosing any sleep over it as we have enof fire power(Upgraded MIGs,M2ks& JAGs) to say the least


----------



## Skull and Bones

Black Widow said:


> Breaking News: PAF is not considering buying J10B aka FC20, Rather PAF will go with FC1 aka JF17 block II and III. Alongside PAF is planning to buy more F16s...
> 
> 
> So now PAF has FC1 and F16 left.. ...
> 
> 
> Source "FC20 J10 thread in PAF subforum"



When did this happened?


----------



## abdulbarijan

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir if i take your nombers into account then dont worry we add 20 of them to force every year and* even if you take 65% *of 160 it is still well over 104 MKI's which means almost 6 Sqads with 2Phalcons(1 for eastern front)& 3 greenpines(which can see deep until afghanistan and cover whole pakistani air space as of now ) among others(Israeli+french and russian AA bateries & 3D radars) which will have to stand against say 50 as of now JF17's & some 60 F16 52's + 3 sweedish & two Chinese AWACS(well after MAY 2011 im not a great fan of pakistani ground based radars) so whats your point now as i dont think it will be a big problem since we have well over 8 years of training owr inferior pilots on them but as i know you still dont have more than couple of years for the same for your super dupar JF17's & F16'52s and im not countiong any other IAF assets



Good suddenly when your own equation makes the situation grim for you, you go and bring in the future of 20 A/C per year and talk in the year 2018 where the orders are "planned" to be fulfilled--

As for the OBL raid, how many times the ruskies (an ally) tried and use a full stealth aircraft on you guys, so that you are comparing --- secondly have you heard what happened to the other heli about how it got some "mechanical issues" in the air -- and just crashed ... 

On the contrary what happened when the great MKI's tried violating PAF's airspace -- I mean *the great MKI officially received its first locking by PAF* --- but I know -- its too much of a burden for your superegos to take and so you guys need a
*"Source"* and by source you mean* Indian media* ... 

You make a good point about the training issues, now that is a fact and we need to face it, As time goes by It will be addressed automatically --- but lets not forget PAF's 30 year experience over the F-16's (including war experience with the soviets) while you start making your claims--

The point that made me really laugh was the fact that *MKI's *(on your 65% to china 35% to Pakistan distribution) *rose to 104 while the poor JF-17's still stayed to 50---which is the numerical strength we have today --*




> and about when we will get owr geared cycles & mobikes well sir i guess im very positive that the geared one will start coming in couple of years and were in not a very big rush for owr mobikes as of yet
> 
> and least we forget the mini bike sir then again we are not loosing any sleep over it as we have enof fire power(Upgraded MIGs,M2ks& JAGs) to say the least



yup, your not loosing sleep over it, *just the thing called "cost" w*hich has now surpassed that of the SAAB Gripens ... 

Tejas LCA project to cost more than Rs 13,000 crore over 35 years - Times Of India

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GURU DUTT

abdulbarijan said:


> Good suddenly when your own equation makes the situation grim for you, you go and bring in the future of 20 A/C per year and talk in the year 2018 where the orders are "planned" to be fulfilled--
> 
> As for the OBL raid, how many times the ruskies (an ally) tried and use a full stealth aircraft on you guys, so that you are comparing --- secondly have you heard what happened to the other heli about how it got some "mechanical issues" in the air -- and just crashed ...
> 
> On the contrary what happened when the great MKI's tried violating PAF's airspace -- I mean *the great MKI officially received its first locking by PAF* --- but I know -- its too much of a burden for your superegos to take and so you guys need a
> *"Source"* and by source you mean* Indian media* ...
> 
> You make a good point about the training issues, now that is a fact and we need to face it, As time goes by It will be addressed automatically --- but lets not forget PAF's 30 year experience over the F-16's (including war experience with the soviets) while you start making your claims--
> 
> The point that made me really laugh was the fact that *MKI's *(on your 65% to china 35% to Pakistan distribution) *rose to 104 while the poor JF-17's still stayed to 50---which is the numerical strength we have today --*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yup, your not loosing sleep over it, *just the thing called "cost" w*hich has now surpassed that of the SAAB Gripens ...
> 
> Tejas LCA project to cost more than Rs 13,000 crore over 35 years - Times Of India



well well well when u dont have anything good to say you try to deviate it by trying to start verbal mumbul jumbal and passing the buck (typicall PDF response) well sir read again its called THE POT IS CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK 

now about the ruskies they sureli are owr largest wepons suppliers & a friendli nation not what a FIELD MARSHALL had said about "Friends Not Masters" though the same ruskies saved your sorry *** in 1965 remeber Tashkent

Tashkent Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan lost ALL 4 wars against India : Mr. Najam Sethi - YouTube

Pakistan lost all wars against india - YouTube

A Khan: Pak Started All Wars with India - YouTube

and about owr LCA well dont worry we can sustain those cost as we dont have a super duper economy as the land of the pure to worry about 

and about JF17 numbers you onli gave those in your second last post 

so the moral of the story =BRING SOMETHING NEW ....sir


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

silent hawk said:


> One aspect which I believe needs considerations is Pakistan's VERA-E system which enables Pakistan to classify ememy aircrafts while they are across the border. This means that PAF will know when a SU 30 is approaching the border and hence can have better employment techniques. As long as Pakistan can deploy block 52 against Su 30 it has a good chance of success.
> 
> Training is another factor. India's lack of a dedicated jet trainer means PAF pilots are better trained.
> 
> Better employment conditions and training give PAF the edge.



LoL

google for kiran, hawks.


----------



## airomerix

Hobo1 said:


> Dawood bhai jaan and his gang control the hawala channel through which Indian politicans and Indian rich send their money to swiss bank. Now Sonia and her gangs doesn't want to spoil this by attacking Pakistan.
> And Indian sunni will not like IAF attacking Pakistan. even when 1\4 of dead in 26\11 were Muslim. Congress party will not want to loose its ever growing sunni vote bank by attacking Pak.
> 
> And had India attacked Pakistan at time of 26\11, then it would have given PA a pretext to move its troops from Afghan border.



Cut your crap. In short you want to say that IAF is having mercy on PAF due to sunni muslims and some gang bangs of sonia gandhi. Damn your flankers then. And then you all are crying like little girls to prove the superiority of MKI over JF-17.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## airomerix

@Indians

First gather enough BALLs to even intrude Pakistan. In the mean time park your flankers at Aero India and give joy rides to Shahrukh Khan and family. 



Black Widow said:


> Breaking News: PAF is not considering buying J10B aka FC20, Rather PAF will go with FC1 aka JF17 block II and III. Alongside PAF is planning to buy more F16s...
> 
> 
> So now PAF has FC1 and F16 left.. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Source "FC20 J10 thread in PAF subforum"





Skull and Bones said:


> When did this happened?



In his dreams


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Kindly, don't invent your own definitions. Post a definition with a proper source. I just want to see when was the term kill probability for a missile was invented by intellectuals.
> 
> Hint: A term like "Kill probability of a BVR missile" cannot exist.



You know **** about missiles and air warfare. The term 'kill probability' DEFINITELY exists for YOU and YOUR RUSSIAN missiles because only AMRAAM is a missile which is referred as 'FIRE and FORGET" due to its superior guidance system. 

First you made cannons as a replacement of missile, then you flopped the development of short range missiles and now you are vomiting on the discussion by posting useless and senseless crap.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

airomerix said:


> You know **** about missiles and air warfare. The term 'kill probability' DEFINITELY exists for YOU and YOUR RUSSIAN missiles because only AMRAAM is a missile which is referred as 'FIRE and FORGET" due to its superior guidance system.
> 
> First you made cannons as a replacement of missile, then you flopped the development of short range missiles and now you are vomiting on the discussion by posting useless and senseless crap.



And the clown is back.


----------



## GURU DUTT

Shadow_Hunter said:


> And the clown is back.



well sir we know there real pain so heres my FAV song dedicated to them God Bless Them 

Dan Hill - It&#39;s a Long Road + lyrics - YouTube


----------



## MilSpec

airomerix said:


> You know **** about missiles and air warfare. The term 'kill probability' DEFINITELY exists for YOU and YOUR RUSSIAN missiles because only AMRAAM is a missile which is referred as 'FIRE and FORGET" due to its superior guidance system.
> 
> First you made cannons as a replacement of missile, then you flopped the development of short range missiles and now you are vomiting on the discussion by posting useless and senseless crap.




And despite the capability of integrating European/Israeli missiles, IAF is still choosing to use RVV-AE/SD/MD says a lot about quality of OUR RUSSIAN missiles. Discount them at your own peril.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Black Widow

airomerix said:


> @Indians
> 
> First gather enough BALLs to even intrude Pakistan. In the mean time park your flankers at Aero India and give joy rides to Shahrukh Khan and family.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *In his dreams*






And you didn't bother to read my post... Why don't you browse to thrd I mentioed and look ursef???


----------



## Black Widow

I am looking for exact news about cancelling/postponing of J10B. Till that time you guys enjoy with these comments...


*Some china defense forum guess PAF skip J10b cause it worry the induction of J10b will dampen the export market of JF17.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-422.html#ixzz2HHxzjRxQ*



Black Widow said:


> I am looking for exact news about cancelling/postponing/proposal to cancel/Rumor about J10 etc . Till that time you guys enjoy with these comments...
> 
> 
> *Some china defense forum guess PAF skip J10b cause it worry the induction of J10b will dampen the export market of JF17.
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-422.html#ixzz2HHxzjRxQ*





Here lies the expert comment of a Think Tank

*internet reports....
it is being stated that PK may not be interested in the J-10B anymore, as the JFT Block-2 and planned Block-3 will provide 'similar' performance and weapons like the J-10B. for the sake of simplicity, PAF would prefer to invest in the JFT. further in the new year, PAF is going to request additional F-16's from the USA either via EDA or new order for atleast 28 aircraft.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-423.html#ixzz2HHyjgXFX*


----------



## KRAIT

NVM.............................


----------



## arbit

NUCLEARPARK Ji,

Mazedaar post thi. Delete kar di aapne. Thodi der to maze lene dete! You told me that it was a post of no value.. did you mean something like this






airomerix said:


> Cut your crap. In short you want to say that IAF is having mercy on PAF due to sunni muslims and some gang bangs of sonia gandhi. Damn your flankers then. And then you all are crying like little girls to prove the superiority of MKI over JF-17.


----------



## wakapdf

Storm Force said:


> wakapdf I thank you for making the MOST SENSIBLE POST in over 90 pages of pure fanboyz jingoism
> 
> your comment
> 
> The BEST, RICHIST , air powers in the world train for 80% of their time to fight a WAR IN A BVR SCENARIO
> 
> iTS ALL ABOUT
> 
> Radar power which includes range and processing power ie AESA PESA at least MSA
> dectection = RCS
> bvr = range. diffderent seelers for confusion
> NEZ = NO ESCAPE ZONE
> AWACS support
> sophiticated JAMMERS
> 
> 
> 21st century air war is not about PILOT SKILL and the sooner PDF members realise this THE BETTER
> 
> DOG FIGHTING IS DEAD in front of a AMRAAM C5 , MICA, R27/R77 amramski or in the FUTURE meteore bvr



Thanks mate!


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir we know there real pain so heres my FAV song dedicated to them God Bless Them
> 
> Dan Hill - It's a Long Road + lyrics - YouTube



Its funny, how the fool ranted that kill probability for BVR missiles exists but stopped short of posting the definition. Probably couldn't find it on wikipidia and sp had to satisfy himself with abusing me.


----------



## surya kiran

airomerix said:


> @Indians
> 
> First gather enough BALLs to even intrude Pakistan.




Ahem....Mig 25s. Over Pak airspace. Squadron called trisonics. Was a regular feature operated by the ARC. Was quite a good view from up there is what I have heard. And yea...not one intrusion. It was a regular feature. Like in and out and in and out and in and out....and may I add at will?


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> Offcourse in your dreams.
> And we are yet to see a single JF-17 in service with PAF armed with any BVR whatsoever.



So now, not even the F-16's are BVR capable? I don't know what to say.





DARKY said:


> There shows the inability of your pathetic brain again.... they are not just standing together.. they are returning from shorties on F-16block52 some of which you can see parked in the back ground... Singapore Airforce pilots [who have been veterans on F-16 and have more pilots with over 2000 and 1000 hours than what the PAF ever had.. perhaps double the number or even more.] are talking about their birds.



First of all, how would you or anybody else know how many hours PAF pilots have clocked on the F-16's?? We have operated them for many decades and we were overhauling and manufacturing spares when they were blocked under the pressler amendment. Even under the severest of sanctions we kept our F's flying. It's quite amateurish to consider that PAF pilots have less experience then RSAF F-16 pilot.

Not only that, PAF pilots shot down IsAF Jets flying Russian Jets that they were not used to flying, I am sure PAF must be doing something right in their development and training.

And well, there is still no proof that IAF pilots ever flew RSAF F-16 B52's. The pictures merely show pilots standing and chatting, most likely the IAF pilots are admiring the F-16, from a safe distance after a flight on their own jets!





DARKY said:


> And this is not airshow [I can understand that your poor IQ brain cannot differentiate between air shows and air exercises]... But Air exercise and Training which has been going on in India for about five years or so... I won't be surprised If a few IAF pilots already made it the 100hrs club on F-16block52.



You, most likely, wouldn't be surprised if IAF pilots haven't even had a chance to climb into RSAF F-16's cockpit. But know something and admitting it are different matter. Anyway, provide proof and I will accept. I merely do not accept because there is no proof and because the US has very stringent policies about usage of their equipment.





DARKY said:


> And you were flying the JF-17 to conclude its performance...



Does that make any sense, in any part of the world??





DARKY said:


> Good to see that you can spell words correctly atleast.
> 
> I gave the "P R O O F"... in my previous posts... go and *read* that again... ranting the same thing over and over again doesn't change it.
> 
> No body is forcing you to come out of your well... you are better suited to stay there.
> 
> That was the point.. you don't understand terms such as RCS, TRMMs... and yet commenting on those.



You don't understand the term 'intelligence' or 'practicality' or 'proof' yet you keep ranting on those, you have no how to provide proof as the brochure that you posted had not a single line on TRMM's or the detection range of Phalcon!

Please provide proof, or GTFO!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Kindly, don't invent your own definitions. Post a definition with a proper source. I just want to see when was the term kill probability for a missile was invented by intellectuals.
> 
> Hint: A term like "Kill probability of a BVR missile" cannot exist.



So, you got your stats and decided to derail the discussion as any further discussion would have shamed you in to submission. No worries! Atleast you are not aware how many Russian BVRs have been released (21) and how many have found their mark (0!!).



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Kindly, don't invent your own definitions. Post a definition with a proper source. I just want to see when was the term kill probability for a missile was invented by intellectuals.
> 
> Hint: A term like "Kill probability of a BVR missile" cannot exist.



So, you got your stats and decided to derail the discussion as any further discussion would have shamed you in to submission. No worries! Atleast you are not aware how many Russian BVRs have been released (21) and how many have found their mark (0!!).





GURU DUTT said:


> wow the thread was how PAF will counter the threat posted by SU30MKI
> 
> and there is all kind of verbal jingoism that can be imagined but not one post that can clearli say and 101 pages lost
> 
> well what they posted here to support there argument was
> 
> 1. .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> in short 101 pages wasted and Paksitani freinds are yet to give any substantial answer to MKI threat forget about upgraded MIG's , M2K's among others [/B]



By God, you made me laugh!!

Thank you


----------



## silent hawk

*It is not the aircraft but the pilots who really matter*

in 1965 The hunter was in many ways superior to the sabre yet PAF not only achieved local area air superiority but was flying target area caps inside Indian Airspace

in 1971 PAF was shooting down Mig 21 with Mig 19s (F-6)

IAF pilots were and still are professionally inferior

*PAF will outgun the SU 30 not because of the gun but because of the man behind the gun*


----------



## Hobo1

silent hawk said:


> *It is not the aircraft but the pilots who really matter*
> 
> in *1965 The hunter was in many ways superior to the sabre yet PAF not only achieved local area air superiority but was flying target area caps inside Indian Airspace*
> 
> *in 1971 PAF was shooting down Mig 21 with Mig 19s (F-6)
> *
> IAF pilots were and still are professionally inferior
> 
> *PAF will outgun the SU 30 not because of the gun but because of the man behind the gun*



Hunter was bomber hardly any match for dog fighting skill of sabres. in 65 PAF had air to air missile when IAF had none. But still Pakistan lost. 

In 71 we PAF was totally humiliated by IAF, Gnat a fighter exclusively designed for Indian needs with Indian money with IAF's input totally destroyed sabres and went out to called Sabre slayer.


----------



## silent hawk

Hobo1 said:


> Hunter was bomber hardly any match for dog fighting skill of sabres. in 65 PAF had air to air missile when IAF had none. But still Pakistan lost.
> 
> In 71 we PAF was totally humiliated by IAF, Gnat a fighter exclusively designed for Indian needs with Indian money with IAF's input totally destroyed sabres and went out to called Sabre slayer.



The hunter was a very capable fighter. PAF pilots shot down Isreali Mirages with Arab hunters.

I know it is a hard pill to swallow but the facts are clear Indian Pilots are just not professional enough.


----------



## Pfpilot

silent hawk said:


> *It is not the aircraft but the pilots who really matter*
> 
> in 1965 The hunter was in many ways superior to the sabre yet PAF not only achieved local area air superiority but was flying target area caps inside Indian Airspace
> 
> in 1971 PAF was shooting down Mig 21 with Mig 19s (F-6)
> 
> IAF pilots were and still are professionally inferior
> 
> *PAF will outgun the SU 30 not because of the gun but because of the man behind the gun*



The pilot will always be the most important factor in the outcome of any fight. But that has more to do with decision making skills than anything. The advantage of the countless hours spent on training, that make the aircraft an extension of the pilot, himself, are most invaluable. Understanding the limitations and advantages of one's platform in relation to the adversary allows the pilot to fight on his own terms. Situational awareness is where electronics play a crucial role, pulling together information from various sensors into a comprehensive picture, something the human brain would struggle to comprehend. This is the real difference between modern combat and knife fights of the past. Sensor fusion allows the pilot to focus his energy on shooting the adversary down, and let the sensors pinpoint the enemy's location.

Based on that, there is no tangible evidence that the PAF is any better than the IAF. Modern IAF pilots have trained with many of the same air forces as the PAF, they have trained for hours comparable to ours, and have aircraft that are at the least comparable to the PAF and potentially superior. The perceived advantages of the PAF in the past conflicts were borne out of training with the USAF. That was a world divided by the Cold War; today the IAF can approach many western air forces and train with and against the very aircraft that form our spearhead. We can do the same to a large degree. So I am reluctant to accept any advantage that can't be proven in any tangible manner. Then there is the sad reality that for all our claimed superiorities in 65, we had little to show for it in the end. We never did establish any kind of air superiority over India, so that may not be the best example.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## silent hawk

Does India have a dedicated jet trainer such as the PAF T-37 and K-8?


----------



## surya kiran

silent hawk said:


> Does India have a dedicated jet trainer such as the PAF T-37 and K-8?



BAE Systems Hawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HAL Kiran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HJT-36_Sitara


----------



## silent hawk

surya kiran said:


> BAE Systems Hawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> HAL Kiran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> HAL HJT-36 Sitara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



According to the website the Hawk was inducted in 2008. It took a long time time for IAF to make a fundamental decision.

Had they spent more money on Hawks and less on SU-30 maybe some Mig 21 crashes could have been avoided.


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Kindly, don't invent your own definitions. Post a definition with a proper source. I just want to see when was the term kill probability for a missile was invented by intellectuals.
> 
> Hint: A term like "Kill probability of a BVR missile" cannot exist.



Google it and you will get many articles which mentions probability of kill. 

Probability of kill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Abingdonboy

silent hawk said:


> According to the website the Hawk was inducted in 2008. It took a long time time for IAF to make a fundamental decision.
> 
> Had they spent more money on Hawks and less on SU-30 maybe some Mig 21 crashes could have been avoided.



Yes HAWKs did take a while to be contracted but now this is irrlevant has the IAF has received all the the first 66 contracted and the follow-on order for 57 is being produced. The HAWK varient the IAF is getting, namely the HAWK mk.132 is the most advanced such AJT in production right now sir. What's done is done.

+the delays can be attributed to a paucity of funds the Indian military had from the mid '80s to mid '00s.


----------



## silent hawk

The block 52 F-16 has far less cross sectional area than SU 30. The PAF would hence have first shot capability. It would be like a guy with a spear fighting a guy with a shotgun and PAF has the shotgun


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

silent hawk said:


> The block 52 F-16 has far less cross sectional area than SU 30. The PAF would hence have first shot capability. It would be like a guy with a spear fighting a guy with a shotgun and PAF has the shotgun


explain how so ?


----------



## surya kiran

Agnostic_Indian said:


> explain how so ?



Cannot explain man. He just compared Mirage recon capability to a Mig 25 recon capcabilty on another thread.


----------



## Abingdonboy

silent hawk said:


> The block 52 F-16 has far less cross sectional area than SU 30. The PAF would hence have first shot capability. It would be like a guy with a spear fighting a guy with a shotgun and PAF has the shotgun


This analysis does not take into account the MKI's superior radar and EW/ECM suite meaning the F-16 is unlikely to get the first shot.

Note the Super Sukhois will have an AESA radar with RAM coatings, an improved EW/ECM suite and an improved weapons suite.


----------



## Xracer

simply nothing to Counter right now expect our brave pilots and may be j10

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## GURU DUTT

Xracer said:


> simply nothing to Counter right now expect our brave pilots and may be j10



the bestpaskistani response honest and it sums all there feelings well good luck with pilots anlone cant say the same about the beloved super duper J10's


----------



## ptldM3

silent hawk said:


> The block 52 F-16 has far less cross sectional area than SU 30. The PAF would hence have first shot capability. It would be like a guy with a spear fighting a guy with a shotgun and PAF has the shotgun



The SU-27 has shot down smaller aircraft (zero air to air losses).

The F-15 has shot down smaller aircraft (zero air to air losses).

I see radars, electronic counter measures, and weapons means nothing to you.


----------



## notorious_eagle

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Only a very very thin source present about that. It has been reported only once in 2010. Doesn't exactly fit the definition of a reliable source.



You need a source more credible than Sir Parvez Shamim . An individual who has served for more than 20 years in the PAF and worked for 10 years in General Dynamics. You cannot find a source more impeccable or trustworthy than Parvez Shamim or Murad Khan. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> They can't use BVRs till they have BVRs.



Really? So can you please explain how F7PG's were taking shots during High Mark 2010 exercises from a distance of 40 km, or how Mirage III's during an exercise in 2009 were taking shots from a distance of 60km. Strange isn't it that PAF is not in possession of a BVR according to you but they have been practising BVR warfare for over a decade.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

Abingdonboy said:


> This analysis does not take into account the MKI's superior radar and EW/ECM suite meaning the F-16 is unlikely to get the first shot.
> 
> Note the Super Sukhois will have an AESA radar with RAM coatings, an improved EW/ECM suite and an improved weapons suite.



I am not sure which platform will detect the other first but I am pretty sure that neither will use it's BVR at maximum range, they would most likely engage in BVR fight at 50-80 km's. But you also have to take into account the weapons that these platforms will employ. While the AMRAAM has a far superior kill ratio and reliability in dense jamming envoirnment, Russian BVR's deployed by IAF have yet to hit a fighter with jamming pods in real combat (they have only missed so far).


----------



## GURU DUTT

Mav3rick said:


> I am not sure which platform will detect the other first but I am pretty sure that neither will use it's BVR at maximum range, they would most likely engage in BVR fight at 50-80 km's. But you also have to take into account the weapons that these platforms will employ. *While the AMRAAM has a far superior kill ratio and reliability in dense jamming envoirnment, Russian BVR's deployed by IAF have yet to hit a fighter with jamming pods in real combat *(they have only missed so far).


Well dil behlane ko ghalib khayal achha hai good for you if you thing so ....good look


----------



## Black Widow

ptldM3 said:


> The SU-27 has shot down smaller aircraft (zero air to air losses).
> 
> The F-15 has shot down smaller aircraft (zero air to air losses).
> 
> I see radars, electronic counter measures, and weapons means nothing to you.





Exactly the same I am trying to convey. In 4th generation fight RCS plays minimal role... No matter how much RCS is reduced the Plane will be tracked within BVR range... In loaded configuration no 4th gen fighter (NO idea bout Su35BM, RAFAEL and EFT) cannot have RCS less than 4-5 m2, and that is enough to tracked by Huge/Powerful Radar of F15 or Su27 family....


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> So, you got your stats and decided to derail the discussion as any further discussion would have shamed you in to submission. No worries! Atleast you are not aware how many Russian BVRs have been released (21) and how many have found their mark (0!!).
> 
> 
> 
> So, you got your stats and decided to derail the discussion as any further discussion would have shamed you in to submission. No worries! Atleast you are not aware how many Russian BVRs have been released (21) and how many have found their mark (0!!).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By God, you made me laugh!!
> 
> Thank you



Each time you post replies like this, it only highlights your inability to post a simple definition with a proper source.

About Russian BVRs not finding their marks, there are a lot of other factors involved as well.


----------



## Mav3rick

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Each time you post replies like this, it only highlights your inability to post a simple definition with a proper source.
> 
> About Russian BVRs not finding their marks, there are a lot of other factors involved as well.



And each time you post something as the first line, you prove how "intelligent" you are.

Russian BVR's not finding their marks may have a lot of other factors but US BVR's finding their mark also had a lot of other factors, yet they vectored on to the target.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Agnostic_Indian said:


> Google it and you will get many articles which mentions probability of kill.
> 
> Probability of kill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Now that you know what it is, you know that it is impossible for kill probability of a BVR missile to exist.

Note that probability of kill is defined for a particular combat situation, eg, a Su30 MKI firing an R77 at F16 blk 52 from a distance of 50 km when F16 is moving towards it, and the Falcon will take countermeasures against the incoming missile.

Note the number of factors involved in this. If EW suite of F16 or radar of MKI is upgraded, probability of kill for the scenario will change. Probability of kill is not a sole function of the missile and so kill probability of a missile cannot exist.

It is possible to determine the effectiveness of a missile if all other factors are kept standard. But those tests (if they take place) take place only the labs of companies like Raytheon and there is no way for us to know it. The only results in public domain are about real time combat situations which hardly gives an idea about the missile capabilities. When you give these missiles to countries like Eritria and Iraq, who use them bad maintained Mig-29s piloted by badly trained pilots, you can't expect very good kill ratio. If this gives some reason to cheer to our western friends, so be it. There are no taxes on dreaming.


----------



## rockstarIN

notorious_eagle said:


> You need a source more credible than Sir Parvez Shamim . An individual who has served for more than 20 years in the PAF and worked for 10 years in General Dynamics. You cannot find a source more impeccable or trustworthy than Parvez Shamim or Murad Khan.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? So can you please explain how F7PG's were taking shots during High Mark 2010 exercises from a distance of 40 km, or how *Mirage III's during an exercise in 2009 were taking shots from a distance of 60km.* Strange isn't it that PAF is not in possession of a BVR according to you but they have been practising BVR warfare for over a decade.



Upgraded Mirage fire control radar (Grifo M3 radar) range is only 35km.


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

Mav3rick said:


> And each time you post something as the first line, you prove how "intelligent" you are.
> 
> Russian BVR's not finding their marks may have a lot of other factors but US BVR's finding their mark also had a lot of other factors, yet they vectored on to the target.



Yes, the other factors include:
Better American radars
Nicely maintained american jets
Better trained pilots

But idiots like you will put all blame on the missile since India posses these missiles. Shows your knowledge level.


----------



## airomerix

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Now that you know what it is, you know that it is impossible for kill probability of a BVR missile to exist.
> 
> Note that probability of kill is defined for a particular combat situation, eg, a Su30 MKI firing an R77 at F16 blk 52 from a distance of 50 km when F16 is moving towards it, and the Falcon will take countermeasures against the incoming missile.
> 
> Note the number of factors involved in this. If EW suite of F16 or radar of MKI is upgraded, probability of kill for the scenario will change. Probability of kill is not a sole function of the missile and so kill probability of a missile cannot exist.
> 
> It is possible to determine the effectiveness of a missile if all other factors are kept standard. But those tests (if they take place) take place only the labs of companies like Raytheon and there is no way for us to know it. The only results in public domain are about real time combat situations which hardly gives an idea about the missile capabilities. When you give these missiles to countries like Eritria and Iraq, who use them bad maintained Mig-29s piloted by badly trained pilots, you can't expect very good kill ratio. If this gives some reason to cheer to our western friends, so be it. There are no taxes on dreaming.



What the F*** are you ranting now? All you have been doing is just posting baseless BS. 



> Note that probability of kill is defined for a particular combat situation
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ould-counter-su-30-mki-104.html#ixzz2HNCa4tM5



What else do you expect? You'll be firing your BVR's in non combat situation? 



> Note the number of factors involved in this.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ould-counter-su-30-mki-104.html#ixzz2HNCog3Jm



Now you're taking a look at number of factors. It was better to look at them before you bluntly refuted the existence of "Probability of Kill"



> It is possible to determine the effectiveness of a missile if all other factors are kept standard
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ould-counter-su-30-mki-104.html#ixzz2HNDCE6iO



Keep your 3rd copy of Einstine to yourself! 

And find a shadow to disappear in it forever.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Mav3rick

rockstar said:


> Upgraded Mirage fire control radar (Grifo M3 radar) range is only 35km.



Grifo M series radars are licensed copies of APG-68 Radars, their actual track and scan ranges have always been classified. However, the range you have specified is not accurate as the 400-450 W Radar is estimated to have a scan range of 80+ km's and track range of 45+ km. But actual ranges are classified. Not only that, the PAF Mirages (ROSE upgraded) carried Exocet.AM39 anti-ship missiles that had a range of 50-70km's.

Have found an interesting post by a respected fellow member:



nabil_05 said:


> This is highly debatable as you are claiming something which is far from reality. JFT radar has publicized detection range of 105 km against 5m2 target and Su-30 even if, has RCS of 10m2, will be detected at around 200-210 kms!! I bet BARS cannot detect a 3m2 target even at 150 kms and JFT is much less than 3m2 so MKI will have a hard time detecting the JFT at advertised range. Reality is, it will most likely be the other way around.



I hope it makes sense to the highly "intelligent" Indians!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> So now, not even the F-16's are BVR capable? I don't know what to say.




I believe and rightly so... that yo have problem in reading and understanding things.
Read again... what was written there If its worth the effort.



Mav3rick said:


> First of all, how would you or anybody else know how many hours PAF pilots have clocked on the F-16's?? We have operated them for many decades and we were overhauling and manufacturing spares when they were blocked under the pressler amendment. Even under the severest of sanctions we kept our F's flying. It's quite amateurish to consider that PAF pilots have less experience then RSAF F-16 pilot.
> 
> Not only that, PAF pilots shot down IsAF Jets flying Russian Jets that they were not used to flying, I am sure PAF must be doing something right in their development and training.
> 
> And well, there is still no proof that IAF pilots ever flew RSAF F-16 B52's. The pictures merely show pilots standing and chatting, most likely the IAF pilots are admiring the F-16, from a safe distance after a flight on their own jets!



Go and read the data on F-16.net.. It gives the name of the pilots who clocked over 1000hrs on F-16.
Russian jets whose copies[Chinese] they had flown earlier... Its not your tricycle kid supersonic jets are no joke... and what makes you sure ?... If you are so sure why wasting other's time on thread.. be sure and sleep tight... you can report the thread and hope it closes down.
People like you cannot have proof... Is there a proof that you are human and not a Delusional bot ?
... what planes do you see on run way ?
Which is usually the case when a group returns from a sortie or is heading for one.
F-16 is not your favorite cartoon show and those pilots are not 8 year old girls.
Mean while there was also a link posted about Thai Airforce F-16...being flown by IAF pilots.






Mav3rick said:


> You, most likely, wouldn't be surprised if IAF pilots haven't even had a chance to climb into RSAF F-16's cockpit. But know something and admitting it are different matter. Anyway, provide proof and I will accept. I merely do not accept because there is no proof and because the US has very stringent policies about usage of their equipment.




No need to be surprised... what I know is that they have been flying them for more than 2-3 years... You can stay in your Delusion dreams.




Mav3rick said:


> Does that make any sense, in any part of the world??




Yes.. The for rest of the world.





Mav3rick said:


> You don't understand the term 'intelligence' or 'practicality' or 'proof' yet you keep ranting on those, you have no how to provide proof as the brochure that you posted had not a single line on TRMM's or the detection range of Phalcon!
> 
> Please provide proof, or GTFO!!



No one is coming to your place... better GTFO from the Delusion world and be reasonable... and stop embarrassing the name of your country on some international forum... there are always those alien no-body understand lang. forms where you can go and express your sure-ity about what PAF is doing and it must e doing well...


----------



## Mav3rick

DARKY said:


> I believe and rightly so... that yo have problem in reading and understanding things.
> Read again... what was written there If its worth the effort.



A retard can do only that, post retarded things!





DARKY said:


> Go and read the data on F-16.net.. It gives the name of the pilots who clocked over 1000hrs on F-16.
> Russian jets whose copies[Chinese] they had flown earlier... Its not your tricycle kid supersonic jets are no joke... and what makes you sure ?... If you are so sure why wasting other's time on thread.. be sure and sleep tight... you can report the thread and hope it closes down.
> People like you cannot have proof... Is there a proof that you are human and not a Delusional bot ?
> ... what planes do you see on run way ?
> Which is usually the case when a group returns from a sortie or is heading for one.
> F-16 is not your favorite cartoon show and those pilots are not 8 year old girls.
> Mean while there was also a link posted about Thai Airforce F-16...being flown by IAF pilots.



And the stupidity continues. The link that was posted, son, was about the 'possibility' yet no other information exists which states that any such thing actually happened either in Thailand or India!!!!

And you can continue your idiotic rants. *I know you will not be bringing forth any proof so you by default have to revert to trolling.*





DARKY said:


> No need to be surprised... what I know is that they have been flying them for more than 2-3 years... You can stay in your Delusion dreams.



It's no surprise, the whole world knows what IAF have been flying for the past 2-3 years and even before, too bad for you that F-16 is not one of them!!

*And yet, just as expected, no proof!*





DARKY said:


> Yes.. The for rest of the world.



You honestly need professional help, I hope your parents can afford it.





DARKY said:


> No one is coming to your place... better GTFO from the Delusion world and be reasonable... and stop embarrassing the name of your country on some international forum... there are always those alien no-body understand lang. forms where you can go and express your sure-ity about what PAF is doing and it must e doing well...



I can understand your frustration at lack of proof of imaginary things. Taking it out on me won't solve anything, you have already dragged the name of your country as low as I thought you could but you are still going on. 

Now that I do know you have not even a hint of proof, GTFO!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Skull and Bones

@Aeronaut 

Don't you think this thread served it's purpose?

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## arp2041

Skull and Bones said:


> @Aeronaut
> 
> Don't you think this thread served it's purpose?



Yes, i also think the same, now we should look ahead:

How PAF Should Counter the Dassault Rafale


----------



## Skull and Bones

arp2041 said:


> Yes, i also think the same, now we should look ahead:
> 
> How PAF Should Counter the Dassault Rafale



Yes, and after 2017, how should PAF counter Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Markus

105 pages and people still debating as to how PAF will face the MKI. 

Tough bird the MKI is !

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## arp2041

Markus said:


> 105 pages and people still debating as to how PAF will face the MKI.
> 
> Tough bird the MKI is !



Imagine the no. of Pages if a new thread on countering Rafale or FGFA comes up

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Markus

arp2041 said:


> Imagine the no. of Pages if a new thread on countering Rafale or FGFA comes up



This forum will run out of bandwidth but even then those discussions will not end.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## DARKY

Mav3rick said:


> A *retard* can do only that, post *retarded* things!




You are right about yourself on that part... 




Mav3rick said:


> And the stupidity continues. The link that was posted, son, was about the 'possibility' yet no other information exists which states that any such thing actually happened either in Thailand or India!!!!
> 
> And you can continue your idiotic rants. *I know you will not be bringing forth any proof so you by default have to revert to trolling.*




The obvious response... now you ask for proofs.
I wonder you with your maths master... and you asking him the proof as to why 2+2=4 




Mav3rick said:


> It's no surprise, the whole world knows what IAF have been flying for the past 2-3 years and even before, too bad for you that F-16 is not one of them!!
> 
> *And yet, just as expected, no proof!*



Why you burning you arse extra time... IAF already evaluated the Best F-16 package available on over 600 different parameters at different places all over India.
You want proof... 




Mav3rick said:


> You honestly need *professional help*, I hope your parents can afford it.



something which your parents could not afford... obvious... 




Mav3rick said:


> I can understand your *frustration* at lack of proof of imaginary things. *Taking it out on me* won't solve anything, you have already dragged the name of your country as low as I thought you could but you are still going on.
> 
> Now that I do know you have not even a hint of proof, GTFO!!



One can see where that is coming from.... pity you.. 
Long live .. you happy now... no Su30MKI will scare your nights.
you want proof of this too...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstarIN

Mav3rick said:


> Grifo M series radars are licensed copies of APG-68 Radars, their actual track and scan ranges have always been classified. However, the range you have specified is not accurate as the 400-450 W Radar is estimated to have a scan range of 80+ km's and track range of 45+ km. But actual ranges are classified. Not only that, the PAF Mirages (ROSE upgraded) carried Exocet.AM39 anti-ship missiles that had a range of 50-70km's.
> 
> Have found an interesting post by a respected fellow member:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope it makes sense to the highly "intelligent" Indians!




Even if I go by your figures, If the tracking range is 45km, how they shoot missiles @60km as written by N.E

And for the RCS v/s detection range, read my earlier post here regarding the antenna size.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mav3rick said:


> *Grifo M series radars are licensed copies of APG-68 Radars*, their actual track and scan ranges have always been classified. However, the range you have specified is not accurate as the 400-450 W Radar is estimated to have a scan range of 80+ km's and track range of 45+ km. But actual ranges are classified. Not only that, the PAF Mirages (ROSE upgraded) carried Exocet.AM39 anti-ship missiles that had a range of 50-70km's.



That's a big lol. Weight of APG-68 is 164 kg with MTBF of 390 hours, while the weight of Grifo M is less than 120 kg with MTBF of about 220 hours. 

This guy is shamelessly trolling in this thread, and we're feeding this troll. And FYI, every details of Grifo-M (200) is available on it's makers website. 

Just a summary from Selex

http://www.selex-sas.com/~/media/Fi...backgrounders/04grifo-family-backgrounder.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## notorious_eagle

rockstar said:


> Even if I go by your figures, If the tracking range is 45km, *how they shoot missiles @60km as written by N.E*
> 
> And for the RCS v/s detection range, read my earlier post here regarding the antenna size.



Three Words: Net Centric Warfare. 

There are other external sources that can guide an active seeker missile.

At topic, enough trolling from Indian members here. I am going to lock the thread now and let the mods do their job.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## rockstarIN

notorious_eagle said:


> Three Words: Net Centric Warfare.
> 
> There are other external sources that can guide an active seeker missile.
> 
> At topic, enough trolling from Indian members here. I am going to lock the thread now and let the mods do their job.



You mean to say that your BVR can be guided by AWACS? 

So your AWACS will have an 'active radar lock' on the target and will ask the fighter to fire the missile. is that correct?


----------



## Manticore

The thread is approved [visible] but closed for the time being

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Smoke it with SD 10 or AIM120 watch it crash across the LOC

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------

