# ISI to have more civilians at the top



## somebozo

*DAWN.COM*


*ISI to have more civilians at the top*




ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) government has increased the civilian share in the senior hierarchy of the country’s premier intelligence agency — Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

Prime Minister Shahid Khaqan Abbasi on Sept 15, 2017 approved a proposal to increase the number of directors general (DGs) — the highest civilian post in the agency — from one to four.

The post of civilian DG in the ISI is a grade 21 position, equivalent to a serving major general of the armed forces.

Previously, there was only one civilian DG post in the intelligence agency.

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PM Abbasi approved the summary sent to the PM Office by the Defence Ministry, proposing four civilian DGs in the ISI.

In addition, the prime minister has also enhanced the number of deputy directors general (DDGs) from eight to 15. The same summary recommended the creation of seven additional DDG posts for civilian officers in grade 20.

PM approves three new DG posts in grade 21, seven deputy director slots in grade 20

According to the office order issued by the PM Office on Sept 15, “The prime minister has seen and is pleased to approve the proposal at para 5 read with the views of Establishment Division… and of Finance Division.”

The office order titled: “Revised establishment — Defence Intelligence Service (DIS) Cadre Of Directorate General ISI” was signed by the Prime Minister’s Secretary Fawad Hassan Fawad and was circulated to Establishment Division Secretary Mian Asad Hayauddin, the finance ministry and the defence secretary.

When contacted, Parliamentary Secretary for the Cabinet and Establishment Division Raja Javed Ikhlas termed the order “a routine matter”.

An official of the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) did not comment on the development, but said that since the prime minister was the competent authority, as the ISI worked under the PM Secretariat, it was his prerogative to increase the sanctioned posts in the agency.

Formed in 1948 as an independent unit to strengthen the country’s intelligence network, ISI was formerly part of the Intelligence Bureau (IB), which handled intelligence-sharing between different branches of the military, as well as external intelligence gathering.

Its headquarters was initially located in Rawalpindi, but was later moved to Islamabad.

In 1950, ISI was officially given the task of safeguarding Pakistani interests and national security, inside and outside the country.

During the Soviet-Afghan war, ISI was strengthened and re-organised, with a handful of posts being created for civilians from the Defence Intelligence Services (DIS) cadre.

According to a former ISI official, it was in 2005 when retired Gen Pervez Musharraf approved the posting of a civilian as DG ISI in grade 21 for the first time. The process for the promotion of civilian ISI officers was slow, since there was only one DG slot, he said.

However, with the addition of seven grade 20 and three grade 21 posts, the official hoped that promotion of civilians, especially young DIS officers working in “hard areas”, would be accelerated.

In June 2013, some ISI officials had petitioned the Islamabad High Court (IHC) against the slow pace of their promotions. The petition stated that there were over 300 officers in grade 17 to 21 in the five cadres of the ISI, including the Surveillance (field intelligence) cadre, Vetting cadre, Joint Intelligence Miscellaneous cadre, Ministerial cadre and DIS.

The petition was dismissed by IHC Chief Justice Mohammad Anwar Khan Kasi in September the same year, saying that the aggrieved officials should approach the Federal Services Tribunal, which was the relevant forum for such petitions.

_Published in Dawn, September 17th, 2017_

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## HAIDER

PMLn all out war against Pakistan army.

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## Burhan Wani

HAIDER said:


> PMLn all out war against Pakistan army.


By Inducting civilians in ISI can enhance capabilities of intelligence agency in many factors. For example if you want to create finance Division in ISI to monitor black money and money laundering then you need expertise related to finance, Audit and Economy which you can never find in Pakistan Defence Forces. Similarly if you want to create Cyber Intel Division then you need top professionals with decades of experience in Cyber security and Information technology etc.
I appreciate this step and ISI should induct more professionals without outsourcing their departments to minimize risk.

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## sparten

ISI is a civilian agency and always has been. The fact a serving Three Star heads it up and has military officers on secondment does not change that.


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## CriticalThought

I do not trust national security in the hands of any civilian officials. Even more than that, I do not trust any steps taken by the entire civilian administration in regards to anything to do with ISI.

There is only one way I can express my feelings: MY BLOOD IS BOILING. This bast*rd should be tied to the back of a pickup and dragged on the streets of Isb to make him an example before throwing his chopped head across the border at Wagah.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

sparten said:


> ISI is a civilian agency and always has been. The fact a serving Three Star heads it up and has military officers on secondment does not change that.


Inter "services" intelligence is not a civilian agency.. its officers have always come from "services" aka the 3 branches of military. It however has civilian officers.

N League is again trying to destroy another institution for its political gains...4-5 DGs?

Dumb bastards appointment Gen Mukhtar thinking a relative of Maryam safdars samdhis will save em..



Radio Mirchi said:


> Looks like Ajit Doval's plans are working....


In a thread which has nothing to do with india.

One indian arsehole pops up and starts moaning about ajit gandus n whatever without any reason.

Sukoon kar chutiye.



Burhan Wani said:


> By Inducting civilians in ISI can enhance capabilities of intelligence agency in many factors. For example if you want to create finance Division in ISI to monitor black money and money laundering then you need expertise related to finance, Audit and Economy which you can never find in Pakistan Defence Forces. Similarly if you want to create Cyber Intel Division then you need top professionals with decades of experience in Cyber security and Information technology etc.
> I appreciate this step and ISI should induct more professionals without outsourcing their departments to minimize risk.


Or political appointments can destroy the organisation!

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## WaLeEdK2

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Inter "services" intelligence is not a civilian agency.. its officers have always come from "services" aka the 3 branches of military.
> 
> N League is again trying to destroy another institution for its political gains.
> 
> Dumb bastards appointment Gen Mukhtar thinking a relative of Maryam safdars samdhis will save em..
> 
> 
> In a thread which has nothing to do with india.
> 
> One indian arsehole pops and and starts moaning about ajit gandus n whatever without any reason.
> 
> Sukoon kar chutiye.
> 
> 
> Or political appointments can destroy the organisation!



The ISI is ultimately under the control of the army chief. If they wanted to do something that could harm it they wouldn't be able to, isn't that so? At the end of the day it's a branch of the Pakistan Army

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Radio Mirchi said:


> Read My Signature!
> Kasam kha ke bol, ISI has nothing to do with India.


Got no time for a monkeys like u..piss off or you will be banned and taken out like trash.



WaLeEdK2 said:


> The ISI is ultimately under the control of the army chief. If they wanted to do something that could harm it they wouldn't be able to, isn't that so? At the end of the day it's a branch of the Pakistan Army


Do you understand whats happening sir?
Appointment of multiple civilian DGs...

While ISI has always had only 1 DG,chief.

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## WaLeEdK2

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Got no time for a monkeys like u..piss off or you will be banned and taken out like trash.
> 
> 
> Do you understand whats happening sir?
> Appointment of multiple civilian DGs...
> 
> While ISI has always had only 1 DG,chief.


Yes I know but wouldn't those DGs need to get the army chiefs approval before doing anything? Or am i missing something here?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Yes I know but wouldn't those DGs need to get the army chiefs approval before doing anything? Or am i missing something here?


Chosen by PM, advised by army chief.

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## Amaa'n

CriticalThought said:


> I do not trust national security in the hands of any civilian officials. Even more than that, I do not trust any steps taken by the entire civilian administration in regards to anything to do with ISI.
> 
> There is only one way I can express my feelings: MY BLOOD IS BOILING. This bast*rd should be tied to the back of a pickup and dragged on the streets of Isb to make him an example before throwing his chopped head across the border at Wagah.


Do you even know what this Agency is & what it stands for?
Do you even know what Civilians in this agency have done for the country? 
Do you even know that your entire Strategic Organization is run by Civilians? & I mean SPD, NESCOM, AWC, etc .... do remind me how man secrets were sold off by civilian officials in this organizations ---
Not every tom dick & harry gets to work in ISI, heck the recruitment procedure demands such a calibre that even your Army Officers might not be able to clear that procedure ---- 
there are hundreds of Contract employees working in the Agency performing technical roles at the rank of BPS 18, those guys will get nothing at the end of their service & yet they are working tirelessly ---- there are civilian field operatives doing tremendous job while conducting IBOs, Surveillance ...... so please give some credit where its due

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## sparten

@DESERT FIGHTER "Inter-Services" means amongst the intelligence services not the military. It's a hark-back to its original role, to act as a clearing house for other Agencies, which it still does to an extent. 

The Army's intelligence is MI.


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## Imran Khan

if they need a think tank i am ready to join them

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## Burhan Wani

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Inter "services" intelligence is not a civilian agency.. its officers have always come from "services" aka the 3 branches of military. It however has civilian officers.
> 
> N League is again trying to destroy another institution for its political gains...4-5 DGs?
> 
> Dumb bastards appointment Gen Mukhtar thinking a relative of Maryam safdars samdhis will save em..
> 
> 
> In a thread which has nothing to do with india.
> 
> One indian arsehole pops up and starts moaning about ajit gandus n whatever without any reason.
> 
> Sukoon kar chutiye.
> 
> 
> Or political appointments can destroy the organisation!


Ultimately ISI works under Government of Pakistan. I some how managed to get information of current ISI needs and deployment related to ICT infrastructure and security because i already experienced some Internet Service Providers companies during my professional career. You know who were the advisers of ISI officers during meetings with ISP companies these were civilians hired from Third Party companies which is very risky.
YOu can get an experienced SSG officer from Tri services or professional Doctor from Mecial Corps but from where you will get experienced ICT professional, Finance professional and Cyber Security professional?

Both military and Civilians depends upon each other. More challenges are awaited in future and we have to enhance our capabilities by mutual cooperation and understanding.

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## Yaseen1

army chief should take over country 
before things go worst and out of hand


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## simplestguy

Uncle sam's new afghan policy, this has to be done.


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## CriticalThought

balixd said:


> Do you even know what this Agency is & what it stands for?
> Do you even know what Civilians in this agency have done for the country?
> Do you even know that your entire Strategic Organization is run by Civilians? & I mean SPD, NESCOM, AWC, etc .... do remind me how man secrets were sold off by civilian officials in this organizations ---
> Not every tom dick & harry gets to work in ISI, heck the recruitment procedure demands such a calibre that even your Army Officers might not be able to clear that procedure ----
> there are hundreds of Contract employees working in the Agency performing technical roles at the rank of BPS 18, those guys will get nothing at the end of their service & yet they are working tirelessly ---- there are civilian field operatives doing tremendous job while conducting IBOs, Surveillance ...... so please give some credit where its due



The civvies can keep toiling at BPS 18 like they have been doing for the past 70 of years. You join ISI because of passion, your reward is the cloaks and daggers game you get to play. If someone is looking for authority, let them find some other organization for ladder climbing.



Burhan Wani said:


> Ultimately ISI works under Government of Pakistan. I some how managed to get information of current ISI needs and deployment related to ICT infrastructure and security because i already experienced some Internet Service Providers companies during my professional career. You know who were the advisers of ISI officers during meetings with ISP companies these were civilians hired from Third Party companies which is very risky.
> YOu can get an experienced SSG officer from Tri services or professional Doctor from Mecial Corps but from where you will get experienced ICT professional, Finance professional and Cyber Security professional?
> 
> Both military and Civilians depends upon each other. More challenges are awaited in future and we have to enhance our capabilities by mutual cooperation and understanding.



The route to such expertise should be the usual commission offered after bachelors. They should formally induct into the military. And no PM should have any say into any appointment in the ISI, PERIOD.


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## Max

For what role they need multiple civilian DGs?


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## Burhan Wani

CriticalThought said:


> The civvies can keep toiling at BPS 18 like they have been doing for the past 70 of years. You join ISI because of passion, your reward is the cloaks and daggers game you get to play. If someone is looking for authority, let them find some other organization for ladder climbing.
> 
> 
> 
> The route to such expertise should be the usual commission offered after bachelors. They should formally induct into the military. And no PM should have any say into any appointment in the ISI, PERIOD.


A militarized person can be more discipline but you cannot fill patriotism, dedication and great intellect during training. Pakistan Army has a dedicated core of Signals but still they are dependent upon civilians have experience in more sophisticated specialties. I will not share internal story but there are still many departments in Intelligence agencies in role of managed services, supervised by civilians and authorized by Intelligence agency personnel.
I attended many meetings during my professional career related to Cyber security within the presence of military officers but they were completely unaware to understand our terminology. There is always a civilian adviser with intelligence agencies during such meetings.

A fresh graduate is like a child but if you train him well on multiple technologies, with time he will become a professional. I hope you understand.

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## CriticalThought

Max said:


> For what role they need multiple civilian DGs?



Obviously to water down the power structure and create opportunities for buying out more people at topmost ranks.



Burhan Wani said:


> A militarized person can be more discipline but you cannot fill patriotism, dedication and great intellect during training. Pakistan Army has a dedicated core of Signals but still they are dependent upon civilians have experience in more sophisticated specialties. I will not share internal story but there are still many departments in Intelligence agencies in role of managed services, supervised by civilians and authorized by Intelligence agency personnel.
> I attended many meetings during my professional career related to Cyber security within the presence of military officers but they were completely unaware to understand our terminology. There is always a civilian adviser with intelligence agencies during such meetings.
> 
> A fresh graduate is like a child but if you train him well on multiple technologies, with time he will become a professional. I hope you understand.



Fine. But what is the need to increase the grade and seniority level of civilians? At most, they can be paid very high salaries if their services are irreplaceable. But no civilian should even think of acquiring seniority, decision making powers, and access to sensitive administrative information.


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## Winchester

We have had people in the military too whose loyalty to the country you can question. There have been numerous cases to bust this illusion of the military somehow immune to this phenomenon.

According to some accounts it was an Army Brigadier who walked into the American embassy and told them he had info regarding OBL's location. 

I myself recently ran into a _bhagora _from NESCOM who happened to be from the Army.

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## Clutch

Imran Khan said:


> if they need a think tank i am ready to join them




Only one small snag... you might be missing the thinking part of the "think tank" ...

"tank" yes; "thinking" not so much...


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## Burhan Wani

CriticalThought said:


> Obviously to water down the power structure and create opportunities for buying out more people at topmost ranks.
> 
> 
> 
> Fine. But what is the need to increase the grade and seniority level of civilians? At most, they can be paid very high salaries if their services are irreplaceable. But no civilian should even think of acquiring seniority, decision making powers, and access to sensitive administrative information.



Let me explain. 
Q#1. YOu want to create finance division in ISI and you need a head of this directorate what will be the requirement?
Ans: A. 12-15 year of experience professional with PMP certification, CA/ICMA or MS 18 year qualification in finance , Economics and Banking. Can you fill this requirement from defence forces never civilian will be required. But if you need a professional with that much experience you should provide him attractive package in the form of salary and benefits because he will never quit his current job for low profile job.
B. If you induct military officer of the rank of LT Col in this post who is experienced in Heavy mecahnized Unit he will ruin entire department.

To meet future challenges you can never ever completely depend upon defence forces because it is not their work to manage Finance divisions, ICT departments, Media professionals and other expertise who are irrelevant.

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## Amaa'n

Burhan Wani said:


> A militarized person can be more discipline but you cannot fill patriotism, dedication and great intellect during training. Pakistan Army has a dedicated core of Signals but still they are dependent upon civilians have experience in more sophisticated specialties. I will not share internal story but there are still many departments in Intelligence agencies in role of managed services, supervised by civilians and authorized by Intelligence agency personnel.
> I attended many meetings during my professional career related to Cyber security within the presence of military officers but they were completely unaware to understand our terminology. There is always a civilian adviser with intelligence agencies during such meetings.
> 
> A fresh graduate is like a child but if you train him well on multiple technologies, with time he will become a professional. I hope you understand.


Hes a lost cause, no need arguing with him over this, he is not even getting the point here --- to him, the job being done by ISI is apprehending Terrorists by standing outside the doors of terroirsts ----



CriticalThought said:


> The civvies can keep toiling at BPS 18 like they have been doing for the past 70 of years. You join ISI because of passion, your reward is the cloaks and daggers game you get to play. If someone is looking for authority, let them find some other organization for ladder climbing.
> .


 The civies have already been working till the post of BPS 19 - Director level, but they need to climb up the ladder further - not to enjoy the authority but to effectively manage their department ----
Let me put it this way - 
You have a Tech team working on GIS project (now this could be CT related) they require some tools, instruments, equipment to upgrade their system - now those demands would be understood well by a Professional with in the same field or some Brigadier sb who have spent some tough nights at the mountains of FATA ---- 

Also you don't get the point of increasing the seats for Civilians either --- it will ease off the pressure on Military to have an equally competent commander in place --- they don't need to pull a good commander from Military because they will have a Civil commander who has served same amount of time fighting tangos in Urban areas, going through same level of training ---- & more diplomatic approach -----

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## Max

CriticalThought said:


> Obviously to water down the power structure and create opportunities for buying out more people at topmost ranks.



well, let the ISPR speak, i am sure Govt will be doing with establishment's approval. you cannot run older setup for centuries, you have to bring changes, be positive,

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## Amaa'n

Burhan Wani said:


> Ultimately ISI works under Government of Pakistan. I some how managed to get information of current ISI needs and deployment related to ICT infrastructure and security because i already experienced some Internet Service Providers companies during my professional career. You know who were the advisers of ISI officers during meetings with ISP companies these were civilians hired from Third Party companies which is very risky.
> YOu can get an experienced SSG officer from Tri services or professional Doctor from Mecial Corps but from where you will get experienced ICT professional, Finance professional and Cyber Security professional?
> 
> Both military and Civilians depends upon each other. More challenges are awaited in future and we have to enhance our capabilities by mutual cooperation and understanding.


You are focusing all lot on Civilians in IT related fields, but the truth is there are many civilians working in Field Operations too, performing Counter Intelligence, Intelligence & Surveillance , CT roles -- this would involve conducting raids, interviews, Forensic evidence collection ----- 

Am out of this thread now, too much fanboyism here ----

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## Burhan Wani

balixd said:


> Hes a lost cause, no need arguing with him over this, he is not even getting the point here --- to him, the job being done by ISI is apprehending Terrorists by standing outside the doors of terroirsts ----


I tried my best through further explanation in better way. He will understand it now.
By involving military in every department we are not only ruining their expertise but we are burdening their work. Once i experienced on-service naval officer who was from Ordinance department and have very little idea about Information Technology but his assignment was a Managerial role in a IT department of leading university related to Defence forces.(I will not disclose name)
We have plans to upgrade their data Center and i personally collected all necessary requirements and equipment who were required during this project. After necessary arrangements i entered well furnished office of the Naval officer to share list of requirements but he refused to observe with one sentence. "Beta you are professionals with more related experience to me, i am from ordinance but i don't know why they transferred me here. From my side you are cleared to procure what ever you want because i trust you and i don't have single idea related to ICT industry".



balixd said:


> You are focusing all lot on Civilians in IT related fields, but the truth is there are many civilians working in Field Operations too, performing Counter Intelligence, Intelligence & Surveillance , CT roles -- this would involve conducting raids, interviews, Forensic evidence collection -----
> 
> Am out of this thread now, too much fanboyism here ----


Sir actually i am actually Professional engineer have experience in this industry that is why i am trying to explain with my own prospective and experience.


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## PakBlood

Well, this is certainly a move to welcome.

It should be known that intelligence agencies around the world operate as civilian institutions and actually draw their agents/empoyees from the civilian populace rather than cherry-picking them from the military,this includes the CIA which requires applicants to have at least a bachelor's degree with a 3.0 GPA, others that employ civilians include the Mossad,MI6 and even our beloved R.A.W.

Also, other nations are careful to keep their intelligence agecies under their control and supervision rather than giving them a free-hand to create a "Political Wing" to manipulate national politics(see:https://www.dawn.com/news/331357).

But still, these civilian appointments might end up rotting the ISI like the rest of our civilian institutions such as the police or customs,but may God forbid this from happening.

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## Amaa'n

Burhan Wani said:


> Sir actually i am actually Professional engineer have experience in this industry that is why i am trying to explain with my own prospective and experience.


am an engineer too but different subject, different industry , i was just trying to explain the situation that how civilians are embedded into security establishment & the wider role they are taking

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## DESERT FIGHTER

sparten said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER "Inter-Services" means amongst the intelligence services not the military. It's a hark-back to its original role, to act as a clearing house for other Agencies, which it still does to an extent.
> 
> The Army's intelligence is MI.




So ISPR also means that?


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## Sine Nomine

CriticalThought said:


> The civvies can keep toiling at BPS 18 like they have been doing for the past 70 of years. You join ISI because of passion, your reward is the cloaks and daggers game you get to play. If someone is looking for authority, let them find some other organization for ladder climbing.


Why civilians Should be toiling at 18?Because all of those lying in unmarked graves,in some foreign country are always civilians or Pak Army Men are more loyal to Pakistan then DD Usman and Ad Lashari.
All of your IBO are carried out by them,your COAS is dependent on there feeds for decision making.
That proposal was on table for decade, it's a wise step because no one likes to be exploited forever.
I am damn sure you are just a fanboy without any knowledge about gravity of situation.

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Got no time for a monkeys like u..piss off or you will be banned and taken out like trash.
> 
> 
> Do you understand whats happening sir?
> Appointment of multiple civilian DGs...
> 
> While ISI has always had only 1 DG,chief.


You are confusing the Head of Directorate with Head of ISI itself --- seats are increased for DGs of a particular Directorate

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## CriticalThought

Winchester said:


> We have had people in the military too whose loyalty to the country you can question. There have been numerous cases to bust this illusion of the military somehow immune to this phenomenon.
> 
> According to some accounts it was an Army Brigadier who walked into the American embassy and told them he had info regarding OBL's location.
> 
> I myself recently ran into a _bhagora _from NESCOM who happened to be from the Army.



True, the army's history isn't exemplary. But the current fiefdom of economic terrorists is the last species of animals in whose hands national security can be entrusted.



Burhan Wani said:


> Let me explain.
> Q#1. YOu want to create finance division in ISI and you need a head of this directorate what will be the requirement?
> Ans: A. 12-15 year of experience professional with PMP certification, CA/ICMA or MS 18 year qualification in finance , Economics and Banking. Can you fill this requirement from defence forces never civilian will be required. But if you need a professional with that much experience you should provide him attractive package in the form of salary and benefits because he will never quit his current job for low profile job.
> B. If you induct military officer of the rank of LT Col in this post who is experienced in Heavy mecahnized Unit he will ruin entire department.
> 
> To meet future challenges you can never ever completely depend upon defence forces because it is not their work to manage Finance divisions, ICT departments, Media professionals and other expertise who are irrelevant.



I won't talk about ISI, but in general, intelligence agencies are financed by... black budgets. No one knows anything about them. You want some civilian to enter there and track all the money spent by ISI? At this point, discussion is moot. You have an agenda to open ISI's internal affairs to enemies of the state.



balixd said:


> Hes a lost cause, no need arguing with him over this, he is not even getting the point here --- to him, the job being done by ISI is apprehending Terrorists by standing outside the doors of terroirsts ----
> 
> 
> The civies have already been working till the post of BPS 19 - Director level, but they need to climb up the ladder further - not to enjoy the authority but to effectively manage their department ----
> Let me put it this way -
> You have a Tech team working on GIS project (now this could be CT related) they require some tools, instruments, equipment to upgrade their system - now those demands would be understood well by a Professional with in the same field or some Brigadier sb who have spent some tough nights at the mountains of FATA ----
> 
> Also you don't get the point of increasing the seats for Civilians either --- it will ease off the pressure on Military to have an equally competent commander in place --- they don't need to pull a good commander from Military because they will have a Civil commander who has served same amount of time fighting tangos in Urban areas, going through same level of training ---- & more diplomatic approach -----



I don't know why you are demeaning the intellects of Army officers. Not all of them are equal. The most critical training in the army is to think on your feet, and adapt quickly to changes. Some officers never truly evolve, but many do. How come army officers are running the most ambitious, intellectual, and scientific operations in the country such as PAC, and HIT? If you create the requirement that serving officers must acquire relevant qualifications before being posted at management posts in key departments, a lot of the problems you are pointing out can get solved.

Here in Australia, we have managers who have at most Bachelors degrees who have PhDs working for them. How do you think this becomes possible? In the modern workforce, learning is a lifetime process. You keep learning and adapting as the requirements of the job evolve.

All I have seen up till now are specious arguments to facilitate the agenda of increasing civilian intervention in Army affairs.


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## Zarvan

I hate PML N more than many of you here, but people if you have no idea How ISI works than it's your fault. This entire plan of increasing civilians on top was of ISI and Army not PML N. They just gave the approval, entire plan was made by Army. And one major reason is in modern times not only you need people with modern degrees and point of view. Experts of Cyber Warfare and security are needed along with those who are expert in dealing with criminals and understand their Psychology and other things. You need criminal pro filers and all other experts. Technology has changed entire Intelligence Warfare thing. First I was supporting the idea that NSA type agency should be created but now I think ISI should create a NSA within instead of having a separate agency and for that you need civilians.

@balixd @Horus @CriticalThought @Burhan Wani


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## CriticalThought

PakBlood said:


> Well, this is certainly a move to welcome.
> 
> It should be known that intelligence agencies around the world operate as civilian institutions and actually draw their agents/empoyees from the civilian populace rather than cherry-picking them from the military,this includes the CIA which requires applicants to have at least a bachelor's degree with a 3.0 GPA, others that employ civilians include the Mossad,MI6 and even our beloved R.A.W.
> 
> Also, other nations are careful to keep their intelligence agecies under their control and supervision rather than giving them a free-hand to create a "Political Wing" to manipulate national politics(see:https://www.dawn.com/news/331357).
> 
> But still, these civilian appointments might end up rotting the ISI like the rest of our civilian institutions such as the police or customs,but may God forbid this from happening.



Here is the key difference between the rest of the world and us. In general, an American would not defect to Pakistan because we don't have anything to offer. We don't have beautiful women, modern infrastructure, clean roads, quality of life, etc. Even if you offer a million dollars, he knows the money will be tracked and he will lose the money and his life. On the other hand, Pakistanis are sellouts by nature. The Army isn't immune, but so far, it has proven its worth. Don't fix what ain't broke.



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Why civilians Should be toiling at 18?Because all of those lying in unmarked graves,in some foreign country are always civilians or Pak Army Men are more loyal to Pakistan then DD Usman and Ad Lashari.
> All of your IBO are carried out by them,your COAS is dependent on there feeds for decision making.
> That proposal was on table for decade, it's a wise step because no one likes to be exploited forever.
> I am damn sure you are just a fanboy without any knowledge about gravity of situation.



I am damn sure of one thing. At this point, Americans and Indians are looking to inspect the inner workings of our armed forces and national security agencies, this whole government is a bunch of sellouts, and increasing people who have power in an organization is the easiest way to create opportunities for buying people out. This is the main thing which concerns me.



Zarvan said:


> I hate PML N more than many of you here, but people if you have no idea How ISI works than it's your fault. This entire plan of increasing civilians on top was of ISI and Army not PML N. They just gave the approval, entire plan was made by Army. And one major reason is in modern times not only you need people with modern degrees and point of view. Experts of Cyber Warfare and security are needed along with those who are expert in dealing with criminals and understand their Psychology and other things. You need criminal pro filers and all other experts. Technology has changed entire Intelligence Warfare thing. First I was supporting the idea that NSA type agency should be created but now I think ISI should create a NSA within instead of having a separate agency and for that you need civilians.
> 
> @balixd @Horus @CriticalThought @Burhan Wani



Brother, you need all of those, but you don't need to appoint them has heads who have a lot of power and access to sensitive information. Now if you tell me these new fangled posts are limited in the information they get, then that is OK. It is like a hierarchy within a civil part of the organization. But a separation of concerns MUST be maintained where these civilian types are completely denied access to other parts. And putting a civilian in a sensitive department like Finance... people have got to be out of their minds!


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## Zarvan

CriticalThought said:


> Here is the key difference between the rest of the world and us. In general, an American would not defect to Pakistan because we don't have anything to offer. We don't have beautiful women, modern infrastructure, clean roads, quality of life, etc. Even if you offer a million dollars, he knows the money will be tracked and he will lose the money and his life. On the other hand, Pakistanis are sellouts by nature. The Army isn't immune, but so far, it has proven its worth. Don't fix what ain't broke.
> 
> 
> 
> I am damn sure of one thing. At this point, Americans and Indians are looking to inspect the inner workings of our armed forces and national security agencies, this whole government is a bunch of sellouts, and increasing people who have power in an organization is the easiest way to create opportunities for buying people out. This is the main thing which concerns me.
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, you need all of those, but you don't need to appoint them has heads who have a lot of power and access to sensitive information. Now if you tell me these new fangled posts are limited in the information they get, then that is OK. It is like a hierarchy within a civil part of the organization. But a separation of concerns MUST be maintained where these civilian types are completely denied access to other parts. And putting a civilian in a sensitive department like Finance... people have got to be out of their minds!


Yes you have to appoint them as heads that is why you build trust that is how you keep people motivated until you gave them better pay and also better opportunities to go on next level you can't expect them to give their 100 %. Religious Motivation and Patriotism is great but we are also humans with human needs which needs to be addressed.


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## CriticalThought

Zarvan said:


> Yes you have to appoint them as heads that is why you build trust that is how you keep people motivated until you gave them better pay and also better opportunities to go on next level you can't expect them to give their 100 %. Religious Motivation and Patriotism is great but we are also humans with human needs which needs to be addressed.



Let me introduce you to the charms of contracting. Here in Australia, there is a part of the workforce who spend their lives as contractors. They have no annual leaves or sick leaves, no job surety, no bonuses, and no career growth. What they do have is obscene salaries. And I mean up to $1000/- per day. Read that number again. For the right contractor, companies can pay up to $1000/- per day. Top talent can certainly be attracted with the right incentives.


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## Amaa'n

CriticalThought said:


> I don't know why you are demeaning the intellects of Army officers. Not all of them are equal


May be I have the first hand experience of interacting with them??


> The most critical training in the army is to think on your feet, and adapt quickly to changes. Some officers never truly evolve, but many do.


I would like to hear some of the cases you have come across --- my counter narrative still stands strong that Civilians in the Intelligence Agencies across Military Establishment have proven their meddle, by not only sitting in the office behind the Monitors but in the Field Operations too ---- there are vast examples (record & off the record)



> How come army officers are running the most ambitious, intellectual, and scientific operations in the country such as PAC, and HIT? If you create the requirement that serving officers must acquire relevant qualifications before being posted at management posts in key departments, a lot of the problems you are pointing out can get solved.


 & look at the ambitious state of these institutions - do you know PoF have some civilians working so they could advise them on choosing the best weapon ? (small arms) no you don't my brother ---




> Here in Australia, we have managers who have at most Bachelors degrees who have PhDs working for them. How do you think this becomes possible? In the modern workforce, learning is a lifetime process. You keep learning and adapting as the requirements of the job evolve.
> .


let me point it out to you that we are talking about a commander who has same set of expertise in the same field he is heading ---- I wonder which school they would teach a Colonel on procuring Cisco system ----
a Military agency had to recruit a Network Engineer --- a monitoring panel was sitting of serving Officers - yet interview was conducted by a Consultant of Computer manufacturer ----
Later a team of Experts was to be hired - & that Network engineer was asked to conduct interviews & select the candidates ---- & let me add here that Military Agency had ICTOs at disposal, one wonders why no one came forward in this case??

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## CriticalThought

balixd said:


> let me point it out to you that we are talking about a commander who has same set of expertise in the same field he is heading ---- I wonder which school they would teach a Colonel on procuring Cisco system ----
> a Military agency had to recruit a Network Engineer --- a monitoring panel was sitting of serving Officers - yet interview was conducted by a Consultant of Computer manufacturer ----
> Later a team of Experts was to be hired - & that Network engineer was asked to conduct interviews & select the candidates ---- & let me add here that Military Agency had ICTOs at disposal, one wonders why no one came forward in this case??



We have software managers without any knowledge of machine learning who supervise data scientists performing highly mathematical work. The manager needs to learn quickly and demand that the employee make things understandable for him. Continuous learning, quantitative time bounded goals, and plain good management is how you achieve it. No need to install every Tom, Dick, and Harry to sensitive posts.


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## Burhan Wani

CriticalThought said:


> True, the army's history isn't exemplary. But the current fiefdom of economic terrorists is the last species of animals in whose hands national security can be entrusted.
> 
> 
> 
> I won't talk about ISI, but in general, intelligence agencies are financed by... black budgets. No one knows anything about them. You want some civilian to enter there and track all the money spent by ISI? At this point, discussion is moot. You have an agenda to open ISI's internal affairs to enemies of the state.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why you are demeaning the intellects of Army officers. Not all of them are equal. The most critical training in the army is to think on your feet, and adapt quickly to changes. Some officers never truly evolve, but many do. How come army officers are running the most ambitious, intellectual, and scientific operations in the country such as PAC, and HIT? If you create the requirement that serving officers must acquire relevant qualifications before being posted at management posts in key departments, a lot of the problems you are pointing out can get solved.
> 
> Here in Australia, we have managers who have at most Bachelors degrees who have PhDs working for them. How do you think this becomes possible? In the modern workforce, learning is a lifetime process. You keep learning and adapting as the requirements of the job evolve.
> 
> All I have seen up till now are specious arguments to facilitate the agenda of increasing civilian intervention in Army affairs.


Dear The Finance directorate have nothing to do with internal Audit and ISI finances. A purpose of this directorate is to monitor Terror funding, Hawala money, Black money and legal or illegal fund transfers to foreign banks. A person who have deep knowledge about Finance, Banking and economy can better handle this matter rather than military official. Please try to differentiate between a civilian and politician.


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## Zarvan

CriticalThought said:


> Let me introduce you to the charms of contracting. Here in Australia, there is a part of the workforce who spend their lives as contractors. They have no annual leaves or sick leaves, no job surety, no bonuses, and no career growth. What they do have is obscene salaries. And I mean up to $1000/- per day. Read that number again. For the right contractor, companies can pay up to $1000/- per day. Top talent can certainly be attracted with the right incentives.


You don't establish intelligence like that you destroy your entire network by doing that


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## CriticalThought

Burhan Wani said:


> Dear The Finance directorate have nothing to do with internal Audit and ISI finances. A purpose of this directorate is to monitor Terror funding, Hawala money, Black money and legal or illegal fund transfers to foreign banks. A person who have deep knowledge about Finance, Banking and economy can better handle this matter rather than military official. Please try to differentiate between a civilian and politician.



Now let's see if a civilian walks into this post. Per your requirement, this person should be highly qualified. What better person to have than a foreign educated professional? Already, I can see the trouble here. So, let's say we impose the restriction that the person should have remained in Pakistan all his life. You now have a post that the enemy knows can be targeted. The enemy will try his level best to get his moles into this post. It is easy for him to get a mole into this publicized mole from a pool of 200 million people. On the other hand, if Army personnel are trained for this role, the enemy has to do exponentially more work. He needs to work on multiple moles across multiple courses of Kakul Academy, and even then his bets may not pay off because nothing is guaranteed.

An army officer, after appropriate training, can command a department of finance specialists. Coming from the army background, he has a life's training to be on the lookout for enemies. He has the warrior mindset. He treats everything, and everyone with the suspicion they deserver. I would rather have him looking after the department than some civilian.



Zarvan said:


> You don't establish intelligence like that you destroy your entire network by doing that



The contractor model is employed by the CIA itself. They need clearances, and these need to be refreshed on a regular basis.


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## Big Tank

CriticalThought said:


> Now let's see if a civilian walks into this post. Per your requirement, this person should be highly qualified. What better person to have than a foreign educated professional? Already, I can see the trouble here. So, let's say we impose the restriction that the person should have remained in Pakistan all his life. You now have a post that the enemy knows can be targeted. The enemy will try his level best to get his moles into this post. It is easy for him to get a mole into this publicized mole from a pool of 200 million people. On the other hand, if Army personnel are trained for this role, the enemy has to do exponentially more work. He needs to work on multiple moles across multiple courses of Kakul Academy, and even then his bets may not pay off because nothing is guaranteed.
> 
> An army officer, after appropriate training, can command a department of finance specialists. Coming from the army background, he has a life's training to be on the lookout for enemies. He has the warrior mindset. He treats everything, and everyone with the suspicion they deserver. I would rather have him looking after the department than some civilian.
> 
> 
> 
> The contractor model is employed by the CIA itself. They need clearances, and these need to be refreshed on a regular basis.



By reading all your replies. I have came to the conclusion that you Kid have no idea how things work in the ISI. You're merely a fanboy who goes through Youtube videos to learn about 'Deepest Covert Operations'. I bet you've never read a single book written by an author who served in Intelligence Community of Pakistan or related to it. ISI operates differently. It's external intelligence totally relies upon its Civilian Agents who give up their life to infiltrate wherever they're told. The Field Operatives in the ISI are largely based of Civilians rather than Military Personnel. I was the same fanboy dude like you back in my teens. That no one except Army is a patriot here but trust me, living in a Military Cantonment with a Brother who serves. I know that there is no difference. Army is just so good to hide the deeds and how lousy and corrupt its Personnel is. CAD (Covert Activities Div) is commanded by Military but operated by the Civilian Agents. Military Officers in ISI (Major, Cols or Brigs) are likely posted OCs, GSO-IIs or Section Commanders for commanding a useless DTE within Cantonment or some sensitive area to gather useless Intelligence about people living nearby in return having amazing housing benifits, NCBs, Unit Perks and lot more as compared to a Civilian Agent who gets no shit. I am not ignoring the sacrifices given by Military Officers but those guys whom you think about doing 'Dishoom Dishoom' for the Agency, walking on dead lonely roads. Are actually Civilian Field Operation Agents. Watch one of the interviews of Maj Amir. Where he says I'd never send a Military Personnel working for Intelligence to some other or hostile country but instead a Civilian. That's the SOP. And Major Intelligence collections were done by Civilians working in India Afghanistan or other hostile countries. If they aren't so good. That wouldn't have been the structure. You need to learn so much yet.

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## CriticalThought

Mini Tank said:


> By reading all your replies. I have came to the conclusion that you Kid have no idea how things work in the ISI. You're merely a fanboy who goes through Youtube videos to learn about 'Deepest Covert Operations'. I bet you've never read a single book written by an author who served in Intelligence Community of Pakistan or related to it. ISI operates differently. It's external intelligence totally relies upon its Civilian Agents who give up their life to infiltrate wherever they're told. The Field Operatives in the ISI are largely based of Civilians rather than Military Personnel. I was the same fanboy dude like you back in my teens. That no one except Army is a patriot here but trust me, living in a Military Cantonment with a Brother who serves. I know that there is no difference. Army is just so good to hide the deeds and how lousy and corrupt its Personnel is. CAD (Covert Activities Div) is commanded by Military but operated by the Civilian Agents. Military Officers in ISI (Major, Cols or Brigs) are likely posted for commanding a useless DTE within Cantonment or some sensitive area to gather useless Intelligence about people living nearby. I am not ignoring the sacrifices given by Military Officers but those guys whom you think about doing 'Dishoom Dishoom' for the Agency, walking on dead lonely roads. Are actually Civilian Field Operation Agents. Watch one of the interviews of Maj Amir. Where he says I'd never send a Military Personnel working for Intelligence to some other or hostile country but instead a Civilian. That's the SOP. And Major Intelligence collections were done by Civilians working in India Afghanistan or other hostile countries. If they aren't so good. That wouldn't have been the structure. You need to learn so much yet.



You simply need to read my posts better. I am saying no civilians should be appointed to posts holding high level of authority within ISI.


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## Big Tank

CriticalThought said:


> You simply need to read my posts better. I am saying no civilians should be appointed to posts holding high level of authority within ISI.



I've read all of them and you make no sense. PM me for some recommendations if you are really interested.


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## Burhan Wani

CriticalThought said:


> Now let's see if a civilian walks into this post. Per your requirement, this person should be highly qualified. What better person to have than a foreign educated professional? Already, I can see the trouble here. So, let's say we impose the restriction that the person should have remained in Pakistan all his life. You now have a post that the enemy knows can be targeted. The enemy will try his level best to get his moles into this post. It is easy for him to get a mole into this publicized mole from a pool of 200 million people. On the other hand, if Army personnel are trained for this role, the enemy has to do exponentially more work. He needs to work on multiple moles across multiple courses of Kakul Academy, and even then his bets may not pay off because nothing is guaranteed.
> 
> An army officer, after appropriate training, can command a department of finance specialists. Coming from the army background, he has a life's training to be on the lookout for enemies. He has the warrior mindset. He treats everything, and everyone with the suspicion they deserver. I would rather have him looking after the department than some civilian.
> 
> 
> 
> The contractor model is employed by the CIA itself. They need clearances, and these need to be refreshed on a regular basis.


An army officer graduated from PMA has different training and cause. They can be a great administrator but cannot handle Finance matters like bankers and Chartered Accountant do, they cannot design Core Network Design better then me, they cannot create paintings better then professional artist. etc
I already informed you in my recent post that there are still many departments in Intelligence who are working as a third party contractor. There is more risk if you hire any individual as a third party employee but if you induct full time employees with 100 percent monitoring he can be better option.
Intelligence agencies have different procedure for induction, first the qualified person who is eligible for job go through different test process and then they monitor you for more than one year before joining.


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## Big Tank

Burhan Wani said:


> An army officer graduated from PMA has different training and cause. They can be a great administrator but cannot handle Finance matters like bankers and Chartered Accountant do, they cannot design Core Network Design better then me, they cannot create paintings better then professional artist. etc
> I already informed you in my recent post that there are still many departments in Intelligence who are working as a third party contractor. There is more risk if you hire any individual as a third party employee but if you induct full time employees with 100 percent monitoring he can be better option.
> Intelligence agencies have different procedure for induction, first the qualified person who is eligible for job go through different test process and then they monitor you for more than one year before joining.



Selection Criteria to be an Officer in the Pakistan Army is largely outed. ISSB was founded long ago and still they are following same procedure and looking for same qualities within a candidate which can be easily faked. Psychologists are no Gods as the way they are portrayed in ISSB. While selection Criteria for Intelligence Agencies is kept altered time to time. We had a case here when a Havildar attached to Field Intelligence Unit was blackmailing a housemaid to buy him Gutkhas or else he wouldn't let her file get forwarded for Intelligence clearance linked to her Cantt Pass. I can share many of such cases where Officers were involved along. So having such mentality that a Military Personnel is all clean while a Civilian is all bad is kiddish. This Aussie guy above is hilarious though.


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## Burhan Wani

Mini Tank said:


> Selection Criteria to be an Officer in the Pakistan Army is largely outed. ISSB was founded long ago and still they are following same procedure and looking for same qualities within a candidate which can be easily faked. Psychologists are no Gods as the way they are portrayed in ISSB. While selection Criteria for Intelligence Agencies is kept altered time to time. We had a case here when a Havildar attached to Field Intelligence Unit was blackmailing a housemaid to buy him Gutkhas or else he wouldn't let her file get forwarded for Intelligence clearance linked to her Cantt Pass. I can share many of such cases where Officers were involved along. So having such mentality that a Military Personnel is all clean while a Civilian is all bad is kiddish. This Aussie guy above is hilarious though.


I already given my best to convince this guy but he is still strict to his childish point.
Today he is saying that civilians are not allowed in Intelligence agencies in future he will say kick out these civilians from Pakistan. I guarantee it this civilian-military crap should end.


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## CriticalThought

Burhan Wani said:


> I already given my best to convince this guy but he is still strict to his childish point.
> Today he is saying that civilians are not allowed in Intelligence agencies in future he will say kick out these civilians from Pakistan. I guarantee it this civilian-military crap should end.



Kindly avoid misquoting me. It's better you re-read what I have posted, and if you still cannot understand then avoid commenting about me.


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## Sheikh Rauf

Radio Mirchi said:


> Looks like Ajit Doval's plans are working....


indian jahan bhi hongay apni mari maa ka matam kernay pohanch jaingay.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> You don't establish intelligence like that you destroy your entire network by doing that


let him pay 1000$ / day to Civilian contractors


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## Burhan Wani

CriticalThought said:


> Kindly avoid misquoting me. It's better you re-read what I have posted, and if you still cannot understand then avoid commenting about me.


The way you were portraying Civilians and military personnel are completely wrong, even other users are also criticizing your point of views.


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## CriticalThought

balixd said:


> let him pay 1000$ / day to Civilian contractors



If that's what you understood from my post, then...


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## Sheikh Rauf

Burhan Wani said:


> I already given my best to convince this guy but he is still strict to his childish point.
> Today he is saying that civilians are not allowed in Intelligence agencies in future he will say kick out these civilians from Pakistan. I guarantee it this civilian-military crap should end.


Bro its good have civilian in everywhere but when its backing by politicians you cant trust look at your state bank your cities your zakat funds your PIA railway and etc you have to higher your civilian standard first before you involve any. there are more civilian in ISI than you can compare. But supervision sud be under Army.


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## CriticalThought

Burhan Wani said:


> The way you were portraying Civilians and military personnel are completely wrong, even other users are also criticizing your point of views.



You are failing to understand the crux of my argument. Setting aside everything else, the main point is giving civilians further authority in sensitive posts. There is no need for that.


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## Sine Nomine

CriticalThought said:


> I am damn sure of one thing. At this point, Americans and Indians are looking to inspect the inner workings of our armed forces and national security agencies, this whole government is a bunch of sellouts, and increasing people who have power in an organization is the easiest way to create opportunities for buying people out. This is the main thing which concerns me.


Well have a nice day boy.
P.S All those gonna make up to that rank have earned some good marks on body and in personal file,You see everything is kept in check,even COAS.On sometimes Military officers are worst nuisance in ops.I can't take place of a computer engineer simply how outstanding he is,he can't replace me, simple as that


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## Amaa'n

Sheikh Rauf said:


> Bro its good have civilian in everywhere but when its backing by politicians you cant trust look at your state bank your cities your zakat funds your PIA railway and etc you have to higher your civilian standard first before you involve any. there are more civilian in ISI than you can compare. But supervision sud be under Army.


wajid Zia, Bilal rasool are also "Bloody Civilians" i bet they secretly handed out info to MNS


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## Sine Nomine

CriticalThought said:


> You are failing to understand the crux of my argument. Setting aside everything else, the main point is giving civilians further authority in sensitive posts. There is no need for that.


Then why is there need for sending them on sensitive operations,where death has more chances then getting pure milk in Pakistan?

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## CriticalThought

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Well have a nice day boy.
> P.S All those gonna make up to that rank have earned some good marks on body and in personal file,You see everything is kept in check,even COAS.On sometimes Military officers are worst nuisance in ops.I can't take place of a computer engineer simply how outstanding he is,he can't replace me, simple as that



Sir, is it so hard to understand that those computer engineers don't need to be given management positions with authority and access?



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Then why is there need for sending them on sensitive operations,where death has more chances then getting pure milk in Pakistan?



They are low level operations. If they fail, others can be sent. They have volunteered for it, good on them. Pay them highly if you must and that's it.


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## Sine Nomine

balixd said:


> wajid Zia, Bilal rasool are also "Bloody Civilians" i bet they secretly handed out info to MNS


No point in arguing them,these and likes of these in some offices almost ruined everything in 2010.


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## Sheikh Rauf

balixd said:


> wajid Zia, Bilal rasool are also "Bloody Civilians" i bet they secretly handed out info to MNS


they are not DG.. and they sudnt be till civilian raiz its standard. simple is that you guys cant calmly argue and wanted to run ISI. i sud stay away its a serious business which we need to keep it away from politicians.


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## Burhan Wani

CriticalThought said:


> the main point is giving civilians further authority in sensitive posts.


Then from where you will find professionals like CA, Geologist, Pharmacist, Artist, Musician and Cyber security engineers to fulfill your requirements?
PMA can only produce soldiers not above mentioned professionals. Trust me there are still many civilians working in intelligence agencies within sensitive posts.


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## Sine Nomine

CriticalThought said:


> They are low level operations. If they fail, others can be sent. They have volunteered for it, good on them. Pay them highly if you must and that's it.


My foot lower level ops,just tell me two type of Intel.
Kid,those who have spent there lives planning, coordinating and excuteing these ops in younger days have every right down the road to command and instruct others in older days,you can't match experience,no matter if even you are from US Army.CIA has wrecked havoc on US enemies, because in there only Master of Art is put in charge.

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## Amaa'n

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, is it so hard to understand that those computer engineers don't need to be given management positions with authority and access?
> .


you really have noooo idea what you are talking about, do you my friend??
good luck getting approval from Brigadier sb for replacing your GPU from gaming series to professional Quadra FX series -- because to him GPU is a GPU, right? why would we be need FX for rendering? now as you say he may need some time to pick up on things --- but the fact is by that that he will be sent back for next assignment with next department ------ so when next Officer comes in ---- you start from the scratch 

plus Brigadier sb will be more worried about spending his time and get that pat on the shoulder & look a head for Board -- & do know that Military officers are posted on Temporary basis while Civilians are Permanent ----- they may be well aware of the depth & dynamics of the situation then the military officer

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## Sine Nomine

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, is it so hard to understand that those computer engineers don't need to be given management positions with authority and access?


.
So for managing those affairs,which are realated to Computers,but are sensitive.I should depute a person in uniform,whose only Qualification is uniform and down the Road directorate will be ruined.
Excuse me from is BS.
Civilian in ISI are just Gunslingers with diplomatic approach.
@balixd

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## Burhan Wani

Sheikh Rauf said:


> Bro its good have civilian in everywhere but when its backing by politicians you cant trust look at your state bank your cities your zakat funds your PIA railway and etc you have to higher your civilian standard first before you involve any. there are more civilian in ISI than you can compare. But supervision sud be under Army.


If politician have authority to change DG ISI then what can you more expect from them. ISI and other agencies are under GOP and without induction of civilians in intelligence agencies you cannot expand your capabilities.
I am telling you there are still many departments in our intelligence agencies who are working as managed services, supervised by civilians and authorized by Intelligence agencies.


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## Amaa'n

Burhan Wani said:


> Then from where you will find professionals like CA, Geologist, Pharmacist, Artist, Musician and Cyber security engineers to fulfill your requirements?
> PMA can only produce soldiers not above mentioned professionals. Trust me there are still many civilians working in intelligence agencies within sensitive posts.


what he is saying is that keep civies limited to BPS 19, they shouldn't be allowed to go further as it effects the integrity of OPSEC ---- which i think is bull crap & don't agree with --- because as i explained above, Military commanders can't just handle that -----

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## CriticalThought

balixd said:


> you really have noooo idea what you are talking about, do you my friend??
> good luck getting approval from Brigadier sb for replacing your GPU from gaming series to professional Quadra FX series -- because to him GPU is a GPU, right? why would we be need FX for rendering? now as you say he may need some time to pick up on things --- but the fact is by that that he will be sent back for next assignment with next department ------ so when next Officer comes in ---- you start from the scratch
> 
> plus Brigadier sb will be more worried about spending his time and get that pat on the shoulder & look a head for Board -- & do know that Military officers are posted on Temporary basis while Civilians are Permanent ----- they may be well aware of the depth & dynamics of the situation then the military officer





MUSTAKSHAF said:


> .
> So for managing those affairs,which are realated to Computers,but are sensitive.I should depute a person in uniform,whose only Qualification is uniform and down the Road directorate will be ruined.
> Excuse me from is BS.
> Civilian in ISI are just Gunslingers with diplomatic approach.
> @balixd



So what you are telling me is we need to raise the quality of our brigadiers.

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## Soldier-Boy

Burhan Wani said:


> By Inducting civilians in ISI can enhance capabilities of intelligence agency in many factors. For example if you want to create finance Division in ISI to monitor black money and money laundering then you need expertise related to finance, Audit and Economy which you can never find in Pakistan Defence Forces. Similarly if you want to create Cyber Intel Division then you need top professionals with decades of experience in Cyber security and Information technology etc.
> I appreciate this step and ISI should induct more professionals without outsourcing their departments to minimize risk.


PMLN doing this to create moles in ISSI for them, they are not doing any favor to the agency.


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## Amaa'n

CriticalThought said:


> So what you are telling me is we need to raise the quality of our brigadiers.


No !!!! that is what YOU have been saying ----- how else a Manager who has Bachelors going to lead a team of Ph.Ds?


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## CriticalThought

balixd said:


> No !!!! that is what YOU have been saying ----- how else a Manager who has Bachelors going to lead a team of Ph.Ds?



Take a deep breath and think. You are as much guilty of closed mindedness as the brigadiers you are accusing.


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## Sine Nomine

CriticalThought said:


> So what you are telling me is we need to raise the quality of our brigadiers.


We don't have need for raising there fu@king Quality,they are already Master of there field but putting them in that field most of times doesn't makes any sense or fails to yield desired outcome.


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## CriticalThought

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> We don't have need for raising there fu@king Quality,they are already Master of there field but putting them in that field most of times doesn't makes any sense or fails to yield desired outcome.



Creativity, adaptability, thinking on your feet, picking up new knowledge as you go, these are all qualities that can at least be filtered for, if not inculcated into officers from the start.


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## Burhan Wani

balixd said:


> what he is saying is that keep civies limited to BPS 19, they shouldn't be allowed to go further as it effects the integrity of OPSEC ---- which i think is bull crap & don't agree with --- because as i explained above, Military commanders can't just handle that -----


BPS 19 are mostly Directors supervising many teams lead by Deputy Directors BPS 18. So if your requirement is to establish Cyber Crime Department who will be the most suitable Director. A person who have 12-15 year experience at Juniper/Cisco/Huawei in related department Network Security will be more better or LT Col SSG Zarrar Unit?
Obviously Network professional.



Soldier-Boy said:


> PMLN doing this to create moles in ISSI for them, they are not doing any favor to the agency.


If any one have such desires they will be blown into pieces before planning this idea.

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## Amaa'n

CriticalThought said:


> Take a deep breath and think. You are as much guilty of closed mindedness as the brigadiers you are accusing.


believe me, am calm as hell --- just enjoying my tea break ---- I have a really open mind, that is why am speaking out of personal experience & making this forum aware of ground reality ----- each individual in our establishment have their own role to play, each brings something different to the table ---- Brigadier sb did not get those Patches just like that , taking a walk in the park, he earned that patch hard ---- & you put him where he actually fits correctly

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## CriticalThought

Burhan Wani said:


> BPS 19 are mostly Directors supervising many teams lead by Deputy Directors BPS 18. So if your requirement is to establish Cyber Crime Department who will be the most suitable Director. A person who have 12-15 year experience in Juniper/Cisco/Huawei in related department Network Security will be more better or LT Col SSG Zarrar Unit?
> Obviously Network professional.



The Cyber Crime Department must have some objectives. If Lt. Col. is unable to lay down the high level objectives, then he is inadequate for the post. If he has the qualities of good management, he will listen to feedback from Network Professional and modify them as needed. The Professional can then translate them into implementation steps. Purchases etc. needed to be verified by the Lt Col. who will also keep close tabs on the Professional's activities.



balixd said:


> believe me, am calm as hell --- just enjoying my tea break ---- I have a really open mind, that is why am speaking out of personal experience & making this forum aware of ground reality ----- each individual in our establishment have their own role to play, each brings something different to the table ---- Brigadier sb did not get those Patches just like that , taking a walk in the park, he earned that patch hard ---- & you put him where he actually fits correctly



The army has a large number of retirees of very high calibre. They can't all keep commanding tank units. Their intelligence, creativity, and leadership can be utilized in many other departments, if they are trained for it.


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## Sine Nomine

CriticalThought said:


> Creativity, adaptability, thinking on your feet, picking up new knowledge as you go, these are all qualities that can at least be filtered for, if not inculcated into officers from the start.


In nutshell dear,you can't replace an officer who has spent best years of his life in a certain field and eventually climbed the ladder with utmost Professionalism and Hard work to higher post in same field.No matter how much qualified you are he would beat shit out of you in his field and same would apply if he challenges you in your field.
Those who are going to lead a directorate,they deserve it,they earned it with Will and hard work.
You are entitled to your opinion but your opinion does costed us many lives in past.
FAREWELL


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## Big Tank

Burhan Wani said:


> I already given my best to convince this guy but he is still strict to his childish point.
> Today he is saying that civilians are not allowed in Intelligence agencies in future he will say kick out these civilians from Pakistan. I guarantee it this civilian-military crap should end.



I agree. In the end everyone is picked up from this country whether into the Military or in a Civil Institution. Who cares if someone spent their last 3-10 years into a department which actually puts them apart from other human beings LOL. Whether a Civil or Armed Forces Personnel. Gund karne pe aen to phir koi peche nai hat'ta. These two classes are actually a Western Tradition followed in Western Militaries. I had previously posted an opinion of mine regarding this Military and Civil classification in Pakistan followed by the Imperial British Military germs in Pakistan Military Academy which should end. Islam has no such rulings and neither supports. The only reason some Muslim countries are successfully deterring against West is because there is no such thing as 'Ap civil ho?' 'Asi te fauji aan' 'Yo am an Army Brat' 'Yo am a Bureaucratic Brat'. They are simply the natives.


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## Soldier-Boy

Burhan Wani said:


> If any one have such desires they will be blown into pieces before planning this idea.


They are since ex ISI Gen Pasha directly responsible for creating (means today's PTI) PTI and staging a Dharna against PMLN although he was retired when he did this but PMLN is of the opinion that ISI help PTI so that to create their own men in ISI they are adding more civilians in ISI to create a pressure group within ISI.


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## Amaa'n

CriticalThought said:


> The army has a large number of retirees of very high calibre. They can't all keep commanding tank units. Their intelligence, creativity, and leadership can be utilized in many other departments, if they are trained for it.


Yep, go ahead and get some baba g sitting at home and appoint him head of department ---- 

am out of here yar ---- please don't quote me now unless there is something new to ad

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## Big Tank

Soldier-Boy said:


> They are since ex ISI Gen Pasha directly responsible for creating (means today's PTI) PTI and staging a Dharna against PMLN although he was retired when he did this but PMLN is of the opinion that ISI help PTI so that to create their own men in ISI they are adding more civilians in ISI to create a pressure group within ISI.



Kahan se le aty ho itni chussen yar? Please!!


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## Soldier-Boy

Mini Tank said:


> chussen


?


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## Big Tank

balixd said:


> Yep, go ahead and get some baba g sitting at home and appoint him head of department ----
> 
> am out of here yar ---- please don't quote me now unless there is something new to ad



And trust me he is right. You may see a lot of these Baba Gees in Field Operation who can't even chase or apprehend an individual yet they are hired because of the same old hiring a Military Vet Policy he is advocating


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## Burhan Wani

CriticalThought said:


> The Cyber Crime Department must have some objectives. If Lt. Col. is unable to lay down the high level objectives, then he is inadequate for the post. If he has the qualities of good management, he will listen to feedback from Network Professional and modify them as needed. The Professional can then translate them into implementation steps. Purchases etc. needed to be verified by the Lt Col. who will also keep close tabs on the Professional's activities.


If a person cannot understand Arabic then how can he be understand either a person speaking to him is doing tilawat or abusing him.
Suppose an outage occurred, DDOS attacked, Cyber Attack on Network, Network Professional is on annual leaves and Lt Col is leading the team can he do necessary changes to restore critical services.
A person who cannot in position to define Router, Switch, Firewall how can he be procure and purchase Data center requirement.?

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## Sine Nomine

balixd said:


> Yep, go ahead and get some baba g sitting at home and appoint him head of department ----
> 
> am out of here yar ---- please don't quote me now unless there is something new to ad


In ke sui wahi a Kar rukti Hai, mai nai itney saal ghass nahi Kati,aur tume Kia pata.....
Karoo,Maroo tum Tamgha Hamara.....
It's good eventually things are improving but not before huge losses at both ends.


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## Burhan Wani

Soldier-Boy said:


> They are since ex ISI Gen Pasha directly responsible for creating (means today's PTI) PTI and staging a Dharna against PMLN although he was retired when he did this but PMLN is of the opinion that ISI help PTI so that to create their own men in ISI they are adding more civilians in ISI to create a pressure group within ISI.


Military personnel are not allowed to interfere in polticial issues. PMA Oath.


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## Soldier-Boy

Burhan Wani said:


> If a person cannot understand Arabic then how can he be understand either a person speaking to him is doing tilawat or abusing him.
> Suppose an outage occurred, DDOS attacked, Cyber Attack on Network, Network Professional is on annual leaves and Lt Col is leading the team can he do necessary changes to restore critical services.
> A person who cannot in position to define Router, Switch, Firewall how can he be procure and purchase Data center requirement.?


Yes civilian can help them and for that they don't need even directors post since that high level post means direct operation of intelligence agencies and believe me 99% civilian would fail without military training.



Burhan Wani said:


> Military personnel are not allowed to interfere in polticial issues. PMA Oath.



he was retired at that time. Genius


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## Burhan Wani

Soldier-Boy said:


> Yes civilian can help them and for that they don't need even directors post since that high level post means direct operation of intelligence agencies and believe me 99% civilian would fail without military training.


If director have no idea what is happening in the network than how will he lead the team.Suppose i am managing a team of Network Engineer and you send me to supervise a group of doctors is this a good move?


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## Soldier-Boy

Burhan Wani said:


> If director have no idea what is happening in the network than how will he lead the team.Suppose i am managing a team of Network Engineer and you send me to supervise a group of doctors is this a good move?


same applies to professional civilian who even don't know how to save his @ss when some nut going to hit him.
Do you know how to perform raid against armed suspects?


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## Burhan Wani

Soldier-Boy said:


> Yes civilian can help them and for that they don't need even directors post since that high level post means direct operation of intelligence agencies and believe me 99% civilian would fail without military training.
> 
> 
> 
> he was retired at that time. Genius


Those who are retired from sophisticated posts have some boundaries.



Soldier-Boy said:


> same applies to professional civilian who even don't know how to save his @ss when some nut going to hit him.
> Do you know how to perform raid against armed suspects?


It will only require four weeks training which is compulsory for Assistant Directors before induction. Gun handling is easier compared to Hifi computer simulations and Cuber security.


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## Soldier-Boy

Burhan Wani said:


> It will only require four weeks training


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## HAIDER

Burhan Wani said:


> By Inducting civilians in ISI can enhance capabilities of intelligence agency in many factors. For example if you want to create finance Division in ISI to monitor black money and money laundering then you need expertise related to finance, Audit and Economy which you can never find in Pakistan Defence Forces. Similarly if you want to create Cyber Intel Division then you need top professionals with decades of experience in Cyber security and Information technology etc.
> I appreciate this step and ISI should induct more professionals without outsourcing their departments to minimize risk.


Intelligence agencies has internal and secretive audit division. And all is secret and undisclosed. We never heard any premier agency budget been disclosed.


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## American Pakistani

There should be one DG and other 3 should work under him. And yes I agree with one member who said that Pakistan need professionals in cyber security, etc field which I'm sure Army might not have.


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## Burhan Wani

HAIDER said:


> Intelligence agencies has internal and secretive audit division. And all is secret and undisclosed. We never heard any premier agency budget been disclosed.


I am not referring to monitor ISI internal budget and Inflow. I am giving example with respect to monitor Terror Funding, HAwala Money, Transfer of funds and black money. A person who have vast experience in Banking, Chartered accountant can investigate or head this group better then a military personnel.


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## HAIDER

Burhan Wani said:


> I am not referring to monitor ISI internal budget and Inflow. I am giving example with respect to monitor Terror Funding, HAwala Money, Transfer of funds and black money. A person who have vast experience in Banking, Chartered accountant can investigate or head this group better then a military personnel.


Pakistan need to follow the US policy. They even shutdown any financial institution once they even find suspicious money trail. They don't care how big is a bank. Habib Bank NY is one most recent example.


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## Burhan Wani

HAIDER said:


> Pakistan need to follow the US policy. They even shutdown any financial institution once they even find suspicious money trail. They don't care how big is a bank. Habib Bank NY is one most recent example.


We have open borders with Afghanistan and it is not very difficult for terror organisations to provide their workers funds. I have given a single example but of you want to monitor Internet traffic of all Internet service providers of all companies then what will they do?
Obviously a professional like me can provide better solution for this task not any military professional from tri services. For example they hired me for a project on temporary basis but what will they do if any modification or up gradation required then they will call me again. Totally dependent on me and if i became anti national i can bring wrath upon them within minutes.


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## Eagle_storm

not agree with this.........


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## I.R.A

Relax ............. I am sure these won't be like appointing Chairman of PIA, Election Commission or SECP etc. A strong organisation / institute itself will have greater say and its own mechanisms to promote and clear people to undertake different roles. Vetting and verification is a routine process else Pakistan's many strategic secrets are in hands of civilians. Its good if they are decreasing their reliance on outsourced manpower, being permanent part of an organisation and recognition has its own positive affects .......... increased loyalty, mental satisfaction, better team work, greater coordination, sense of serving the greater cause and high productivity. The only thing that matters is thorough training and better robust vetting process.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Imran Khan said:


> if they need a think tank i am ready to join them



Please channel our thoughts to them too....



PakBlood said:


> Well, this is certainly a move to welcome.
> 
> It should be known that intelligence agencies around the world operate as civilian institutions and actually draw their agents/empoyees from the civilian populace rather than cherry-picking them from the military,this includes the CIA which requires applicants to have at least a bachelor's degree with a 3.0 GPA, others that employ civilians include the Mossad,MI6 and even our beloved R.A.W.
> 
> Also, other nations are careful to keep their intelligence agecies under their control and supervision rather than giving them a free-hand to create a "Political Wing" to manipulate national politics(see:https://www.dawn.com/news/331357).
> 
> But still, these civilian appointments might end up rotting the ISI like the rest of our civilian institutions such as the police or customs,but may God forbid this from happening.


As for RAW, I think it's always headed by an ex-Police officer - a bad cop is the closest "criminal mind" you get in the street apart from the gangster....

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## Kompromat

The officers will be career Intelligence officers of the ISI, not appointees.

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## Thanatos

balixd said:


> Do you even know what this Agency is & what it stands for?
> Do you even know what Civilians in this agency have done for the country?
> Do you even know that your entire Strategic Organization is run by Civilians? & I mean SPD, NESCOM, AWC, etc .... do remind me how man secrets were sold off by civilian officials in this organizations ---
> Not every tom dick & harry gets to work in ISI, heck the recruitment procedure demands such a calibre that even your Army Officers might not be able to clear that procedure ----
> there are hundreds of Contract employees working in the Agency performing technical roles at the rank of BPS 18, those guys will get nothing at the end of their service & yet they are working tirelessly ---- there are civilian field operatives doing tremendous job while conducting IBOs, Surveillance ...... so please give some credit where its due


Exactly.


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## Kamikaze Pilot

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> In a thread which has nothing to do with india.
> 
> One indian arsehole pops up and starts moaning about ajit gandus n whatever without any reason.
> 
> Sukoon kar chutiye.


I really love your posts. Very entertaining. A treat to read. Also some of your signatures. Now I will make it a point to specifically search for your posts. 

@Kaptaan

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## DESERT FIGHTER

abcxyz0000 said:


> I really love your posts. Very entertaining. A treat to read. Also some of your signatures. Now I will make it a point to specifically search for your posts.
> 
> @Kaptaan


Thank you.. enjoy.


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## Indus Pakistan

abcxyz0000 said:


> I really love your posts. Very entertaining. A treat to read. Also some of your signatures. Now I will make it a point to specifically search for your posts.
> 
> @Kaptaan


Me as well. Should @DESERT FIGHTER ever get bored of law he has a assured future as a comedian. I also enjoy his post. Fast, racy, to the point. Regulary delivering 'knockouts'.

And another note I have a second cousin in the ISI who joined as civilian in late 1980s.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kaptaan said:


> Me as well. Should @DESERT FIGHTER ever get bored of law he has a assured future as a comedian. I also enjoy his post. Fast, racy, to the point. Regulary delivering 'knockouts'.
> 
> And another note I have a second cousin in the ISI who joined as civilian in late 1980s.


Jimmy Carr is the best comedian ever from UK..



Kaptaan said:


> Me as well. Should @DESERT FIGHTER ever get bored of law he has a assured future as a comedian. I also enjoy his post. Fast, racy, to the point. Regulary delivering 'knockouts'.
> 
> And another note I have a second cousin in the ISI who joined as civilian in late 1980s.


Watch this ;


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## SabzShaheen

Hopefully this move will be beneficial as it will likely bring the ISI under greater civilian control


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## DESERT FIGHTER

SabzShaheen said:


> Hopefully this move will be beneficial as it will likely bring the ISI under greater civilian control


ISI stands for Inter-Services Intelligence.


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