# India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:



## SuperSubrayan

Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely
India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.
The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.

The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.

Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.

According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.

India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.

The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.

NewsWarrior: Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely

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## SuperSubrayan

Sooo we are going for Su35S as rumoured if this is what we are doing. Well thought move by PMO . Cost effective and way more better option as we already upgraded our Mirage fleet to impressive upgrades . More over I guess and vet these rafales will be committed for Nuclear delivery system also. Since the price tag is huge this must our starter for follow on in the future as negotiations ccan take place after full mutual understanding. Hope this is true . Finger crossed !!! Do pray guys


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## Srinivas

"Make in India" should be the prime motto of Modi in France

Buying 60 fighter jets manufactured in France is not an issue, But Indian Aero space Industry needs technological edge, for that a partnership with Dassault is a good move, I hope the remaining Rafales will be manufactured here in India.



SuperSubrayan said:


> Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely
> India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.
> The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.
> 
> The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
> 
> Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.
> 
> According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.
> 
> India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.
> 
> The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.


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## C130

well we'll see if this is true or not soon I guess.


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## Chinese-Dragon

If they are all built in France, what happens to the ToT?

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## Peshwa

ill believe it when I see it...
right now its all just hot fluff, esp since no other news source available to confirm the intel

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## Hyperion

It's nothing but renegotiating "kickbacks"!

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## HRK

sound reasonable .....

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## SuperSubrayan

Srinivas said:


> "Make in India" should be the prime motto of Modi in France
> 
> Buying 60 fighter jets manufactured in France is not an issue, But Indian Aero space Industry needs technological edge, for that a partnership with Dassault is a good move, I hope the remaining Rafales will be manufactured here in India.



Dude are you serious? Now we will get Rafael at reasonable price . And we are not US or China to spend all our money on defence . Now we will get rafale and at the same time we will get Su35S I guess . If true it's a great thing. No need to buy 124 rafale when we will get FGFA and AMCA . Hopefully 30-40% of money will be invested in India to produce some basic high tech rafale components for sure as per our defence procurement law. 

So cheer up dude . This whole drama will be over and we can move on with our life 



Hyperion said:


> It's nothing but renegotiating "kickbacks"!


Ohhhh no problem 



C130 said:


> well we'll see if this is true or not soon I guess.



His tweet is been shared like forest fire by all Indian Jurno and defence experts . I have asked him to reply on its conformation let's see. It's very reasonable for India to buy of the shelves in small numbers . Anyway we will get know ow how of this high tech weapon system. But remember it's just an proposal by PM Modi . But I don't see any reason why french men will deny it



Peshwa said:


> ill believe it when I see it...
> right now its all just hot fluff, esp since no other news source available to confirm the intel


In no time you will get new source from NDTV or Live fist for sure.


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## flamer84

Chinese-Dragon said:


> If they are all built in France, what happens to the ToT?




What happens in Paris,stays in Paris.

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## Donatello

India has a better chance of getting discount on a large order (126 jets) vs smaller order (60 jets)

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## SuperSubrayan

flamer84 said:


> What happens in Paris,stays in Paris.


Lol good one Bro 



Donatello said:


> India has a better chance of getting discount on a large order (126 jets) vs smaller order (60 jets)


Dude now we will get pure MMRCA . What else do we want ? When fighter is in our hand we will do every trick to copy it's technology. It's new Act India government at the centre

Huge take away : 


LOW COST as G-G process will take place to reduce the price by 20-30% . Since its Without ToT
BOOST FOR IAF : IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers
Issue of guaranteeing quality will be sorted out !!!!


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## Penguin



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## SuperSubrayan

Don't get surprised if we get 1st 2 EF from Germany .


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## Sugarcane

Mothers of breaking news regarding Rafale have been shared millions of time on PDF

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## SuperSubrayan

Penguin said:


>


Beast 



Chinese-Dragon said:


> If they are all built in France, what happens to the ToT?


When we get RAFALE we will we do what it has to be done.


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## HRK

LoveIcon said:


> Mothers of breaking news regarding Rafale are shared millions of time on PDF



Actually this is the dilemma of Rafale deal there are so many mothers for this baby (Indian fanboys) but no farther (political ownership) .... let see Modi adopt this child or not ....

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## Armstrong

flamer84 said:


> What happens in Paris,stays in Paris.


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## Hyperion

Oki, so it's the grand-mother of all shattering news(es - if there's such a word)! 

Party-pooper....... 



LoveIcon said:


> Mothers of breaking news regarding Rafale have been shared millions of time on PDF

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## The SC

That is around a $6 billion deal, if it is true and not some news to dress up the other more important news of scraping the deal all together.


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## slapshot

LoveIcon said:


> Mothers of breaking news regarding Rafale have been shared millions of time on PDF


It lays eggs to keep up with the status of mother news  yet another MMRCA thread


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## ptldM3

Options are:

More Tejas (inexpensive, unclear if Hal can meet the extra demand)
Go for Typhoon (Typhoon+Rafale+all other Indian aircraft is a logistics problem)
Mig-35 (a lot of commonality with Mig-29)

Order JF-17 (it has DSI)

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## Dillinger

Hyperion said:


> It's nothing but renegotiating "kickbacks"!



I was going to comment, and then I saw the children had beat me to it, with inane notions of what this means.

Was a time when you and I taught the Lungians how to build the bomb, and now, the quality's gone down the drain.

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## Hyperion

The greatest lungi of all time is still active on the forum....... munshi sahab has opened a new thread today, courtesy Saudi money! 

Btw, how iz you? 



Dillinger said:


> I was going to comment, and then I saw the children had beat me to it, with inane notions of what this means.
> 
> Was a time when you and I taught the Lungians how to build the bomb, and now, the quality's gone down the drain.

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## Abingdonboy

I don't buy this a major part of the MMRCA was about ToT, industrial benefits and addressing the depleting Sqn strength issue this 60 Rafales through a G-G deal undermines every aspect of this. 126 Rafales simply isn't enough the IAF hinted they would be pursuing the clause for 63 follow on Rafales, they might as well not bother 60 Rafales won't bring enough to India to justify the cost. 


I could be wrong but it doesn't make a lot of sense AT ALL.

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## Dillinger

Hyperion said:


> The greatest lungi of all time is still active on the forum....... munshi sahab has opened a new thread today, courtesy Saudi money!
> 
> Btw, how iz you?



Been very busy brother, hence my long leave of absence from pdf. How's the family, any little Hype's running about? 

On topic. Seems like GOI has finally found its head. Now to top it off they should find the appropriate in country partners for providing a complete MRO solution, properly monitored such a process will ensure exemplary fleet availability. Private companies would be keen to get into the MRO business, it would serve as a good access point for them into the defence aviation business and could build a bountiful relationship between the companies in question and the IAF.

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## Hyperion

Same here mate.... very busy as well.......... little Hype's on the way......... waiting game now........ 

Yeah, in seriousness, it's a good decision by GoI..... makes sense! 



Dillinger said:


> Been very busy brother, hence my long leave of absence from pdf. How's the family, any little Hype's running about?
> 
> On topic. Seems like GOI has finally found its head. Now to top it off they should find the appropriate in country partners for providing a complete MRO solution, properly monitored such a process will ensure exemplary fleet availability. Private companies would be keen to get into the MRO business, it would serve as a good access point for them into the defence aviation business and could build a bountiful relationship between the companies in question and the IAF.

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## Abingdonboy

ptldM3 said:


> Options are:
> 
> More Tejas (inexpensive, unclear if Hal can meet the extra demand)
> Go for Typhoon (Typhoon+Rafale+all other Indian aircraft is a logistics problem)
> Mig-35 (a lot of commonality with Mig-29)
> 
> Order JF-17 (it has DSI)


None of these are viable options

- The LCA is coming regardless and they will be ramping up production to 16 LCA a year within the next two years but they are not capable enough to be substitutes for the Rafale.
-The IAF is not going to add yet ANOTHER fighter type to its fleet, it is trying to simplify logistics not complicate them
- They don't want the MiG-35, it failed to meet their technical specifications.

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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't buy this a major part of the MMRCA was about ToT, industrial benefits and addressing the depleting Sqn strength issue this 60 Rafales through a G-G deal undermines every aspect of this. 126 Rafales simply isn't enough the IAF hinted they would be pursuing the clause for 63 follow on Rafales, they might as well not bother 60 Rafales won't bring enough to India to justify the cost.
> 
> 
> I could be wrong but it doesn't make a lot of sense AT ALL.



It would be a step in the right direction. The aforementioned depleting force levels require a quick and simple solution (a direct off the shelf purchase instead of first going through the lead time of setting up in country manufacturing facilities). A second flight of fighters can then be procured (G2G) or built in country by using the time taken by Dassault to fulfill the 60 fighter contract to get the facilities up and running in country and ensuring that the contractors providing the components can meet the QC/QR.



Hyperion said:


> Same here mate.... very busy as well.......... little Hype's on the way......... waiting game now........
> 
> Yeah, in seriousness, it's a good decision by GoI..... makes sense!



Teach him early on, all the tricks the likes of us learnt over an eventful albeit short (so far) life.

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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> It would be a step in the right direction. The aforementioned depleting force levels require a quick and simple solutions (a direct off the shelf purchase instead of first going through the lead time of setting up in country manufacturing facilities). A second flight of fighters can then be procured (G2G) or built in country by using the time taken by Dassault to fulfill the 60 fighter contract to get the facilities up and running in country and ensuring that the contractors providing the components can meet the QC/QR.


IF this is the long term plan then it makes sense because India effectively gets the MMRCA deal without needing to untangle an MMRCA mess BUT 60 fighters off the shelf and that alone is an almost meaningless deal for India.

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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> None of these are viable options
> 
> - The LCA is coming regardless and they will be ramping up production to 16 LCA a year within the next two years but they are not capable enough to be substitutes for the Rafale.
> -The IAF is not going to add yet ANOTHER fighter type to its fleet, it is trying to simplify logistics not complicate them
> - They don't want the MiG-35, it failed to meet their technical specifications.



Add the Su-35 to the list and even the 34 (for the more crazy fanboys).

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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> Add the Su-35 to the list and even the 34 (for the more crazy fanboys).


Lol or maybe quicker induction of the PAK-FA (despite the fact Russia is pushing off their own induction of this plane)


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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> IF this is the long term plan then it makes sense because India effectively gets the MMRCA deal without needing to untangle an MMRCA mess BUT 60 fighters off the shelf and that alone is an almost meaningless deal for India.



Not particularly, 60 Rafales operating alongside 50+ upgraded Mirages will still constitute a potent force in the medium weight segment. But, it will also mean that the AMCA will have to be pursued with renewed vigor and actual focus (as opposed to our lackluster performance in the past and laughably hilarious decision making structure).

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## SipahSalar

60 Rafales destroyed even before take off.

BTW forget lowering the cost. The fewer jets India buys, the more they will cost per plane.


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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> Not particularly, 60 Rafales operating alongside 50+ upgraded Mirages will still constitute a potent force in the medium weight segment. But, it will also mean that the AMCA will have to be pursued with renewed vigor and actual focus (as opposed to our lackluster performance in the past and laughably hilarious decision making structure).


I'm still trying to digest this but the more I think about it the more I think the 60 would only be the first order and would be procured for purely operational reasons i.e. the IAF's depleting Sqn strength and that another order for Rafales built in India would come later bringing about all the industrial benefits the MMRCA was always meant to bring. 60 Rafales off the shelf simply makes no sense and I don't think this is the sum total of what would be agreed upon merely step one in untangling the MMRCA mess.


I think it is worth pointing out what Dassualt offered India a few years back:


*Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales*

LIVEFIST: Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales


I think what you wrote @Dillinger is not too far away from what I just said.

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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> Lol or maybe quicker induction of the PAK-FA (despite the fact Russia is pushing off their own induction of this plane)



A quicker induction of the PAK-FA is also unlikely. As it is designed at the moment, the deal is going to be a REAL headache (a BIGGER headache than the Rafale deal). The joint development plan is all but lying still-born, refusing to get off the tarmac. Not a single Indian pilot has taken the plane through its paces (just because its a 5th gen plane doesn't mean it's going to bypass the required mechanisms of meeting IAF requirements). 

Of course, any ideas about inducting the Su-35 or the EF (or the Mig-35, shudder) are laughable.

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## Abingdonboy

SipahSalar said:


> 60 Rafales destroyed even before take off.
> 
> BTW forget lowering the cost. The fewer jets India buys, the more they will cost per plane.


This would only hold true if these 60 were meant to be built in India. Given they are all going to be built in France who already have an open production line I don't see why the costs would increase in fact 60 Rafales is far more Rafales than were ever going to be built in France as per the MMRCA and Dassualt would actually have to ramp up production in all likelihood.


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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm still trying to digest this but the more I think about it the more I think the 60 would only be the first order and would be procured for purely operational reasons i.e. the IAF's depleting Sqn strength and that another order for Rafales built in India would come later bringing about all the industrial benefits the MMRCA was always meant to bring. 60 Rafales off the shelf simply makes no sense and I don't think this is the sum total of what would be agreed upon merely step one in untangling the MMRCA mess.
> 
> 
> I think it is worth pointing out what Dassualt offered India a few years back:
> 
> 
> *Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales*
> 
> LIVEFIST: Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales
> 
> 
> I think what you wrote @Dillinger is not too far away from what I just said.



Those industrial benefits will only come when the contentious points in the original contract are ironed out. 60 or 200, whatever be the number of planes we supposedly will build in country, it will only happen once issues relating to price and quality assurance are fixed, and that does not seem to be in sight.


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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> A quicker induction of the PAK-FA is also unlikely. As it is designed at the moment, the deal is going to be a REAL headache (a BIGGER headache than the Rafale deal). The joint development plan is all but lying still-born, refusing to get off the tarmac. Not a single Indian pilot has taken the plane through its paces (just because its a 5th gen plane doesn't mean it's going to bypass the required mechanisms of meeting IAF requirements).
> 
> Of course, any ideas about inducting the Su-35 or the EF (or the Mig-35, shudder) are laughable.


I agree entirely the FGFA is a disaster but no one is reporting this just yet. If you thought the MMRCA/Rafale was unbearable you haven't seen anything yet. Russia is being squeezed by sanctions who will (and are) pass on this squeeze onto India by way of demanding extra "development costs", the FGFA's design STILL isn't frozen, no development contract has been agreed and the work share is STILL unclear. 

The headache hasn't even begun yet....



Dillinger said:


> Those industrial benefits will only come when the contentious points in the original contract are ironed out. 60 or 200, whatever be the number of planes we supposedly will build in country, it will only happen once issues relating to price and quality assurance are fixed, and that does not seem to be in sight.


Indeed but all the noises seem to imply things are going in the right direction on that front and this off the shelf purchase would buy the IAF breathing room to properly address all such issues on that front.


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## axisofevil

Breaking news my @$$~!


Note this part and never forget it. Put it on repeat for generations to come....


*The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solutio*

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## Abingdonboy

axisofevil said:


> Breaking news my @$$~!
> 
> 
> Note this part and never forget it. Put it on repeat for generations to come....
> 
> 
> *The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solutio*


Let's wait and see if this news is correct but IF it is then chalk another failure up to Antony, yet more pilots he has got killed.


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## Luca1

SipahSalar said:


> 60 Rafales destroyed even before take off.
> 
> BTW forget lowering the cost. The fewer jets India buys, the more they will cost per plane.




It will be cheaper as there is no TOT or facility set up.


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## Dillinger

Abingdonboy said:


> I agree entirely the FGFA is a disaster but no one is reporting this just yet. If you thought the MMRCA/Rafale was unbearable you haven't seen anything yet. Russia is being squeezed by sanctions who will (and are) pass on this squeeze onto India by way of demanding extra "development costs", the FGFA's design STILL isn't frozen, no development contract has been agreed and the work share is STILL unclear.
> 
> The headache hasn't even begun yet....
> 
> 
> Indeed but all the noises seem to imply things are going in the right direction on that front and this off the shelf purchase would buy the IAF breathing room to properly address all such issues on that front.



There will be no solution to the quality assurance issue. Dassault is simply going to refuse, they will rightly argue that they cannot assure or ensure that all QC/QR will be met through the life of the production line. They would have to literally check the components going on every single jet being built in country to be able to take such a responsibility in good faith, and that is not feasible. Quality assurance does not mean that they pass on the certification process to HAL and then sit back and still assume the ultimate liability.

As to the FGFA/PAK-FA, the lesser said the better. GOI and the IAF had best pray to every god in the cosmos that the AMCA actually succeeds.


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## axisofevil

Abingdonboy said:


> Let's wait and see if this news is correct but IF it is then chalk another failure up to Antony, yet more pilots he has got killed.





I agree but blaming Anthony is not correct either. Sonia and Rahul have been pulling the strings when NDA was in power. They are behind every decision made in govt when Congress was in power. I mean their family.

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## Luca1

Dillinger said:


> There will be no solution to the quality assurance issue. Dassault is simply going to refuse, they will rightly argue that they cannot assure or ensure that all QC/QR will be met through the life of the production line. They would have to literally check the components going on every single jet being built in country to be able to take such a responsibility in good faith, and that is not feasible. Quality assurance does not mean that they pass on the certification process to HAL and then sit back and still assume the ultimate liability.
> 
> As to the FGFA/PAK-FA, the lesser said the better. GOI and the IAF had best pray to every god in the cosmos that the AMCA actually succeeds.



If it's all build in their plant, they will guarantee the quality.


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## Dillinger

Luca1 said:


> If it's all build in their plant, they will guarantee the quality.



That should be obvious, hardly something worth quoting my post for.  We are referring to quality assurance issues with regard to the jets which were supposed to be built in country.


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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> There will be no solution to the quality assurance issue. Dassault is simply going to refuse, they will rightly argue that they cannot assure or ensure that all QC/QR will be met through the life of the production line. They would have to literally check the components going on every single jet being built in country to be able to take such a responsibility in good faith, and that is not feasible. Quality assurance does not mean that they pass on the certification process to HAL and then sit back and still assume the ultimate liability.


There was said to be some traction on this with HAL open to the idea of allowing Dassualt to inspect all the work done in India.


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't buy this a major part of the MMRCA was about ToT, industrial benefits and addressing the depleting Sqn strength issue this 60 Rafales through a G-G deal undermines every aspect of this. 126 Rafales simply isn't enough the IAF hinted they would be pursuing the clause for 63 follow on Rafales, they might as well not bother 60 Rafales won't bring enough to India to justify the cost.
> 
> *I could be wrong but it doesn't make a lot of sense AT ALL.*




When has any news on this deal made any sense........


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## browser

Sounds like a replacement for the 60 mirage 2000's that will be retired in 10 years.

For those concerned on the differing platforms and their maintainence, in 10 yrs we will be rid of mig21/25/27/Jag/M2k so a lot of consolidation taking place.

So we will be left with:
Su30,Mig29,Rafael,LCA,FGFA

For a 600 aircraft air force, not too much of an issue.


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## East or West India Best

ptldM3 said:


> Options are:
> 
> More Tejas (inexpensive, unclear if Hal can meet the extra demand)
> Go for Typhoon (Typhoon+Rafale+all other Indian aircraft is a logistics problem)
> Mig-35 (a lot of commonality with Mig-29)
> 
> *Order JF-17 (it has DSI) *



JF 17 is our best option. It is made by the mighty han people so you know quality is good and has DSI!!


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## Beast

India don't get TOT but at least it can get their airforce moving. This is a wise move plus you get all gurantee from France since it build in France.

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## That Guy

If true, than it is a major cut from the original plan. Why even bother with the Rafale than?

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## The_Sidewinder

SuperSubrayan said:


> Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely
> India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.
> The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.
> 
> The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
> 
> Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.
> 
> According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.
> 
> India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.
> 
> The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.
> 
> NewsWarrior: Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely





SuperSubrayan said:


> Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely
> India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.
> The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.
> 
> The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
> 
> Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.
> 
> According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.
> 
> India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.
> 
> The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.
> 
> NewsWarrior: Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely




As much as I want to believe the news, I dont think source is reliable.


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## ito

That Guy said:


> If true, than it is a major cut from the original plan. Why even bother with the Rafale than?



I guess because Indian AirForce is hell bent on wanting these planes. If it was sole in Indian Government hands, the deal would have been scrapped.

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## Thorough Pro

Dear GOD...............start of another decade of indian brain farts

no money for 126?

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## Bang Galore

The_Sidewinder said:


> As much as I want to believe the news, I dont think source is reliable.




Some reporting from other sources:
With Modi arriving on visit, India, France set to push Rafale deal

*With Modi arriving on visit, India, France set to push Rafale deal*

*Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi*
|






_India's multi-billion-dollar potential combat jet deal with preferred bidder Dassault Aviation is one of the many that India wants to implement. In this file photo, a Dassault Rafale fighter jet takes part in a flying display during the 49th Paris Air Show._

_*India is considering direct purchase of two squadrons of the French Rafale fighter plane to avoid the mire of price negotiations that the deal for 126 of these aircraft has been stuck in since January 2012. *_

The Dassault-manufactured Rafale fighter was on January 31, 2012 announced as the preferred bidder in the $13-billion contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). India is now seriously considering strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafales for the Indian Air Force (IAF) through the government-to-government (G2G) route on account of operational necessity. The tentative price tag of this deal would be over $4 billion.

New Delhi and Paris remain silent on the new proposal.

But, a senior official involved in the deal says the decision to bypass the 2004 MMRCA tender route - on the basis of which Rafale emerged in the lead - was taken as both Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) were unable to bridge price differences arising out of original request for proposals (RFP).

"After detailed analysis of the RFP and the laborious process followed by the previous government, it was evident that the entire deal could not be worked out with serious discrepancies in the negotiations that could lead to litigation in future," said a senior official.

The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.

With the NDA government not willing to let the IAF fighter squadron strength dip into the critical zone in coming years, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President François Hollande will on Friday discuss ways to clinch the Rafale deal. "If the French company is willing to lower the price per aircraft due to recovery of development costs on missiles, ammunition and sale to other countries, then India could go for outright purchase of the 4.5 generation fighter through the French government route. The deal could be negotiated and signed in 2015 itself but numbers to be purchased depend on offered price. India has purchased the Lockheed Martin C-130 J Super Hercules, Boeing C-17 Globemaster and P-8I Poseidon aircraft from the US on the basis of strategic requirement and operational necessity through the G2G route," a senior official told Hindustan Times.

The IAF's sanctioned strength is 42 squadrons but it is currently operating only 34 with the Russian-origin Sukhoi 30 MKI being the teeth and the Soviet-era MiG-21 forming the long tail. Given the serviceability, repair and upgrade of these fighters and that eight MiG-21 squadrons are to be phased out in the next eight years, the IAF is set to be heavily depleted. It is in this context that the Modi government plans to have two or three Rafale squadrons to spearhead the IAF with the indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) replacing the MiG-21 in coming years.

The French government is expected to join the 'Make in India' initiative with an offer of two or three top defence technologies, and New Delhi is not adverse to Dassault floating a joint venture with a private company to build more Rafales in India. Similar offers of building fighters in India will also be made to other MMRCA competitors like the Saab Grippen, Boeing F-18, EADS Eurofighter, Russian MiG-35 and Lockheed Martin F-16 so that the IAF dominates the evolving security scenario in Asia

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## The_Sidewinder

@SuperSubrayan

As much as I want to believe the
news, I dont think source is
reliable. Lagta hei kisine firki le li   Other outlets not reporting the same yet.

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## ito

Thorough Pro said:


> Dear GOD...............start of another decade of indian brain farts
> 
> no money for 126?



He is Modi, he is not congress, I expect the deal to be either scraped or signed.

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## Bang Galore

ito said:


> I guess because Indian AirForce is hell bent on wanting these planes. If it was sole in Indian Government hands, the deal would have been scrapped.




If this news is confirmed, i think it is more of a face saver for everyone involved. A complete cancellation would have been seen as a snub for France, an important partner. This looks like a way to close this chapter_(if true)_

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## The_Sidewinder

Bang Galore said:


> Some reporting from more reliable sources:
> With Modi arriving on visit, India, France set to push Rafale deal
> 
> *With Modi arriving on visit, India, France set to push Rafale deal*
> 
> *Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi*
> |
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _India's multi-billion-dollar potential combat jet deal with preferred bidder Dassault Aviation is one of the many that India wants to implement. In this file photo, a Dassault Rafale fighter jet takes part in a flying display during the 49th Paris Air Show._
> 
> _*India is considering direct purchase of two squadrons of the French Rafale fighter plane to avoid the mire of price negotiations that the deal for 126 of these aircraft has been stuck in since January 2012. *_
> 
> The Dassault-manufactured Rafale fighter was on January 31, 2012 announced as the preferred bidder in the $13-billion contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). India is now seriously considering strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafales for the Indian Air Force (IAF) through the government-to-government (G2G) route on account of operational necessity. The tentative price tag of this deal would be over $4 billion.
> 
> New Delhi and Paris remain silent on the new proposal.
> 
> But, a senior official involved in the deal says the decision to bypass the 2004 MMRCA tender route - on the basis of which Rafale emerged in the lead - was taken as both Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) were unable to bridge price differences arising out of original request for proposals (RFP).
> 
> "After detailed analysis of the RFP and the laborious process followed by the previous government, it was evident that the entire deal could not be worked out with serious discrepancies in the negotiations that could lead to litigation in future," said a senior official.
> 
> The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.
> 
> With the NDA government not willing to let the IAF fighter squadron strength dip into the critical zone in coming years, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President François Hollande will on Friday discuss ways to clinch the Rafale deal. "If the French company is willing to lower the price per aircraft due to recovery of development costs on missiles, ammunition and sale to other countries, then India could go for outright purchase of the 4.5 generation fighter through the French government route. The deal could be negotiated and signed in 2015 itself but numbers to be purchased depend on offered price. India has purchased the Lockheed Martin C-130 J Super Hercules, Boeing C-17 Globemaster and P-8I Poseidon aircraft from the US on the basis of strategic requirement and operational necessity through the G2G route," a senior official told Hindustan Times.
> 
> The IAF's sanctioned strength is 42 squadrons but it is currently operating only 34 with the Russian-origin Sukhoi 30 MKI being the teeth and the Soviet-era MiG-21 forming the long tail. Given the serviceability, repair and upgrade of these fighters and that eight MiG-21 squadrons are to be phased out in the next eight years, the IAF is set to be heavily depleted. It is in this context that the Modi government plans to have two or three Rafale squadrons to spearhead the IAF with the indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) replacing the MiG-21 in coming years.
> 
> The French government is expected to join the 'Make in India' initiative with an offer of two or three top defence technologies, and New Delhi is not adverse to Dassault floating a joint venture with a private company to build more Rafales in India. Similar offers of building fighters in India will also be made to other MMRCA competitors like the Saab Grippen, Boeing F-18, EADS Eurofighter, Russian MiG-35 and Lockheed Martin F-16 so that the IAF dominates the evolving security scenario in Asia




lets wait & watch then.

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## Thorough Pro

time will tell. lets wait and see.



ito said:


> He is Modi, he is not congress, I expect the deal to be either scraped or signed.


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## Bang Galore

The_Sidewinder said:


> lets wait & watch then.




Btw, the earlier story came from Nitin Gokale, not a completely unreliable source.

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## Beast

That Guy said:


> If true, than it is a major cut from the original plan. Why even bother with the Rafale than?


Rafale will be a good option shall IN Induct them for carrier ops. I think that is the major reason for IAF hell bent on getting them.


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## ito

Bang Galore said:


> If this news is confirmed, i think it is more of a face saver for everyone involved. A complete cancellation would have been seen as a snub for France, an important partner. This looks like a way to close this chapter_(if true)_



This is an important issue too that Indian government might have taken into consideration



Thorough Pro said:


> time will tell. lets wait and see.



As I said, Modi takes decision very fast...and as BJP has absolute majority in the Parliament, Modi is too powerful in Indian political landscape.


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## Guynextdoor2

So....tooth fairy will make up for falling numbers?


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## Skull and Bones

Guynextdoor2 said:


> So....tooth fairy will make up for falling numbers?



No, flying pappus will.

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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't buy this a major part of the MMRCA was about ToT, industrial benefits and addressing the depleting Sqn strength issue this 60 Rafales through a G-G deal undermines every aspect of this. 126 Rafales simply isn't enough the IAF hinted they would be pursuing the clause for 63 follow on Rafales, they might as well not bother 60 Rafales won't bring enough to India to justify the cost.
> 
> 
> I could be wrong but it doesn't make a lot of sense AT ALL.



I think TOT will take a beating and schedule for full number buildup will be extended even more.



Skull and Bones said:


> No, flying pappus will.



At this time even that looks like an option to consider.....


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## Bang Galore

Guynextdoor2 said:


> So....tooth fairy will make up for falling numbers?



Numbers will probably have to be made up from elsewhere, the way the French were going, this deal would have been a CAG nightmare. A G2G contract might be the way out.


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## Soumitra

PM Narendra Modi says progress possible in Rafale fighter jet talks - The Economic Times

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## The_Sidewinder

For what I am observing there should be a way out of the whole saga like following the same procedure which have been followed in case of SUKHOI 30 MKI .

First Modi will sign the contract for off the selve procurement of 60 Rafales ( 3 squadron )., then go for 124 MMRCA after solving most issues. 
First of all it will helf to quickly replenish our depleting squadron strength. If MMRCA contract is signed within next 6 months, by the time HAL roles out first batch of rafales from its own production line by 2018-19, IAF will already induct 60 new toys to play with.
Thus keeps IAF happy & also HAL can rip benefits from long lasting booring MMRCA saga in form of Major TOT. Just a thought.

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## It.is.all.mudi's.fault

SuperSubrayan said:


> Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely
> India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.
> The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.
> 
> The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
> 
> Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.
> 
> According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.
> 
> India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.
> 
> The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.




Dude,

This news Source (News Warrior) is $hit and most probably having a brainfart.

Buying 40 Rafales off the shelf is most mind numbingly stupid deal of all possible options.

If you want a plane without ToT, why not go for F/A-18SE. It is much more cost effective plane in this category and Americans could deliver faster than French since they have more assembly lines of this Aircraft.

Whole MMRCA tender was about getting ToT for a pseudo fifth generation Airplane and industrial benefits that accompany western Industrial management techniques, not buying some shiny toy alone.

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## ashok321

India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources 


*Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely*

India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.

The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process. 

The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France. 

According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.

The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.

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## That Guy

Regardless of the massive cut in numbers, it seems Pakistan may end up having to speed up it's procurement of a high tech fighter soon. Even in small numbers, 60 is more than enough of a threat.


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## anant_s

Donatello said:


> India has a better chance of getting discount on a large order (126 jets) vs smaller order (60 jets)


If the news is true, it looks like government will negotiate a price for a immediate order value of 50-60 pieces and ask France to reserve the price for an equal quantity, that right could be exercised later. This way they might be able to cover for entire 120-125 pieces being negotiated now and at a much faster rate of induction.



Abingdonboy said:


> I don't buy this a major part of the MMRCA was about ToT, industrial benefits and addressing the depleting Sqn strength issue this 60 Rafales through a G-G deal undermines every aspect of this. 126 Rafales simply isn't enough the IAF hinted they would be pursuing the clause for 63 follow on Rafales, they might as well not bother 60 Rafales won't bring enough to India to justify the cost.


Well let the news get confirmed first, but if true, it is a complete Volte face by India and that would beg the question, why didn't we go for the option in first place and let squadron numbers dwindle.
My guess is that IAF has stood its ground and told establishment in clear manner that they need MMRCA. Now. & given the protracted negotiations, someone has now realized that the competitions (the commercial part) was muddled and it would be difficult to strike a deal with it. 
So clearly Government has found a middle path of graciously exiting from the negotiations while keeping concerns of ACM addressed and obviously keeping France in good humor. We should also look the visit in context that India is negotiating upto 6 EPR 2 reactors for Jaitapur NPP and other Geo-political support from France, the whole thing (MMRCA) could be a small cog in giant wheel of diplomacy.
PS: I think 60 could just be a number to begin with. Having just 3-3.5 squadrons doesn't make sense, the numbers will/should grow later.

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## ganesh177

*Rediff catching same story.*

*Live! India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources*

*08:47India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources:
Noted Strategic Affairs expert Nitin Gokhale says quoting highly-placed sources: India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago.

The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. 

Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process. The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.

Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. 


Live! India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources - Rediff.com India News
*

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## Bang Galore

ganesh177 said:


> *Rediff catching same story.*
> 
> *Live! India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources*
> 
> *08:47India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources:
> Noted Strategic Affairs expert Nitin Gokhale says quoting highly-placed sources: India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago.
> 
> The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added.
> 
> Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process. The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
> 
> Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed.
> 
> 
> Live! India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources - Rediff.com India News*




They are just posting Nitin Gokhale's piece, there's a link to that at the bottom.

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## C130

might as well of bought the F-35 then 









or 126+ super hornets/growlers with TOT

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## ashok321

They would want France to keep happy with "some order"
Kinda a bone to the dog type/
Because India wants all P-5 to be happy and give their assent on India becoming UNSC permanent member in a new set-up.
US has already made up its mind.


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## East or West India Best

C130 said:


> might as well of bought the F-35 then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or a 126 super hornets/growlers with TOT



or F-22

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## Beast

C130 said:


> might as well of bought the F-35 then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or a 126 super hornets/growlers with TOT


US will never provide Indian TOT. It will end up getting a 4th gen with AESA only.

Rafale with canard is more mavueour than Super hornet.

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## C130

East or West India Best said:


> or F-22



F-22 production is dead. if we wouldn't sell it to our closest allies back in the day why would we do it now???

FB-22 needs to happen or should of happened.

Lockheed Martin FB-22 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Beast said:


> US will never provide Indian TOT. It will end up getting a 4th gen with AESA only.
> 
> Rafale with canard is more mavueour than Super hornet.



of course not. will India get TOT with just buying 60 Rafale straight from Dassualt??


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## Beast

East or West India Best said:


> or F-22


In your dream.

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## Beast

C130 said:


> F-22 production is dead. if we wouldn't sell it to our closest allies back in the day why would we do it now???
> 
> FB-22 needs to happen or should of happened.
> 
> Lockheed Martin FB-22 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> of course not. will India get TOT with just buying 60 Rafale straight from Dassualt??


No, but off shelf and all made in france.


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## anant_s

Skull and Bones said:


> No, flying pappus will.


But sir, the planes will be on two months unannounced leave every year.
On the positive side, little technology transfer required and they might empower AWACS and all around them.

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## Beast

The French Won in the end...


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## kaykay

ashok321 said:


> They would want France to keep happy with "some order"
> Kinda a bone to the dog type/
> Because India wants all P-5 to be happy and give their assent on India becoming UNSC permanent member in a new set-up.
> US has already made up its mind.


You have given too much importance to mmrca. They have 20-25 Billion dollar worth nuclear plants in Jaitapur on order, Submarines, Mirage 2k5 upgrade etc. But lets not forget that IAF needs new multirole medium aircrfats badly and they have openly said it in past.


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## migflug

Probably mmrca from 126+63 has gone to 63+126 . Without it there is no need of rafale deal as it truely meant to set up industrial base in india

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## anant_s

migflug said:


> Probably mmrca from 126+63 has gone to 63+126 .


Well lets hope it is that way. 63 is a number that won't justify anything, but again as we know in deals like these, India doesn't commit to large numbers in one go. Pilatus trainers is one example where we have gone in small batches.


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## kaykay

anant_s said:


> Well lets hope it is that way. 63 is a number that won't justify anything, but again as we know in deals like these, India doesn't commit to large numbers in one go. Pilatus trainers is one example where we have gone in small batches.


Or Su30 MKI where initially we planned only 140 aircrafts, Mig-29Ks when we bought just 16 of them initially. Many deals to recall.

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## East or West India Best

C130 said:


> F-22 production is dead.* if we wouldn't sell it to our closest allies back in the day why would we do it now???*
> 
> FB-22 needs to happen or should of happened.
> 
> Lockheed Martin FB-22 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



When courting a girl you need to demonstrate you care for her.



Beast said:


> In your dream.

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## ashok321

kaykay said:


> You have given too much importance to mmrca. They have 20-25 Billion dollar worth nuclear plants in Jaitapur on order, Submarines, Mirage 2k5 upgrade etc. But lets not forget that IAF needs new multirole medium aircrfats badly and they have openly said it in past.



By denying this deal, India would have disappointed France, if not ruffled their feathers.

On Jaitpur, France does not have Indian money in their pockets yet.

Today's news:

_"We have no issues on the latter score (liability) with France. Since January, we have been updating our partners on this issue. But we have not sat down on this issue,"_ Mr Jaishankar said.


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## Bang Galore

NDTV is also running the story about _"Direct Purchase" _citing sources.

Vishnu Som was reporting a possible purchase of between 40 & 60 aircrafts & a possible announcement during the trip itself.

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## anant_s

Bang Galore said:


> NDTV is also running the story about _"Direct Purchase" _citing sources.


You mentioned Nitin Gokhale, looks like the news might be correct afterall, we could hear some announcement later in the day.
@DrSomnath999 @Gabriel92 Looks like a long wait might be coming to an end today.

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## shree835

That Guy said:


> Regardless of the massive cut in numbers, it seems Pakistan may end up having to speed up it's *procurement of a high tech fighter soon*. Even in small numbers, 60 is more than enough of a threat.



hmmm...Time to order some China Maal.

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## It.is.all.mudi's.fault

C130 said:


> might as well of bought the F-35 then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or 126+ super hornets/growlers with TOT




I concure.

If we have to buy a jet without ToT, why not buy F/A-18 SH. It is much cheaper than Rafale with nearly equivalent capabilities. F-35 would be a be a no-go for now as IAF would not be able to get in in time, even if it sign the deal NOW. Also maintaining two different stealth aircrafts would not make economic sense. 


But I should point out that origin of this news is from a $hit source. It has high probability of being false.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Has anyone considered the possibility:

No TOT would imply that the French might be able to sell Rafale to Pakistan as well.


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## Bang Galore

anant_s said:


> You mentioned Vikram Gokhale, looks like the news might be correct afterall, we could hear some announcement later in the day.
> .



_*Nithin*_ Gokhale.....

While I don't know how much this story holds up_ (it's only supposed to be a offer, we have no idea how much this has been discussed with the French if true)_, Nitin Gokhale is atleast a very good story teller with very good sources. I would recommend this book of his:

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## Stephen Cohen

Kite flying at its best


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## anant_s

Bang Galore said:


> _*Nithin*_ Gokhale.....
> 
> While I don't know how much this story holds up_ (it's only supposed to be a offer, we have no idea how much this has been discussed with the French if true)_, Nitin Gokhale is atleast a very good story teller with very good sources. I would recommend this book of his:


Sorry my bad.




I've heard several stories from him on NDTV, he looks like expert journalist on defence and strategic matters. I have great respect for him and his fellow Pallav Bagla (Both on NDTV).


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## C130

East or West India Best said:


> When courting a girl you need to demonstrate you care for her.



if India had invested at least $10 billion in R&D I would agree to ToT. getting ToT on the stealth,engine,avonics, and what ever else for buying 60 or even 126 for $100 million a piece would be great of a lost to the U.S

126 F-35 for $20 billion +$10 billion just towards R&D would India had done such a deal with limited ToT?

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## black-hawk_101

SuperSubrayan said:


> Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely
> India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.
> The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.
> 
> The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
> 
> Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.
> 
> According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.
> 
> India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.
> 
> The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.
> 
> NewsWarrior: Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely



I think the rest would be the 150 FAF Mirage-2000s.


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## The_Sidewinder

@ashok321
why post another thread when another thread is already running with same topic.


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## The SC

That Guy said:


> Regardless of the massive cut in numbers, it seems Pakistan may end up having to speed up it's procurement of a high tech fighter soon. Even in small numbers, 60 is more than enough of a threat.


They will be countered by 50/60 latest J-10s in no time, Pakistan is waiting for just that to happen. If it ever happens...

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## ashok321

The_Sidewinder said:


> @ashok321
> why post another thread when another thread is already running with same topic.



When I posted, I did not find any such article posted before.
May be because my primary source was different = Rediff.com
I don't do that.


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## Water Car Engineer

Bang Galore said:


> If this news is confirmed, i think it is more of a face saver for everyone involved. *A complete cancellation would have been seen as a snub for France, an important partner.* This looks like a way to close this chapter_(if true)_




This whole thing will be a waste of time if they're going to buy off the shelf. If the French dont want to comply with the original RFI or even compromise and meet at the middle, **** the French.

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## The_Sidewinder

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think the rest would be the 150 FAF Mirage-2000s.



Nope. Aint happening.

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## black-hawk_101

The_Sidewinder said:


> Nope. Aint happening.


Then another 50 M-2000s?


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## The_Sidewinder

ashok321 said:


> When I posted, I did not find any such article posted before.
> May be because my primary source was different = Rediff.com
> I don't do that.



No problem. You couldhv actually posted it on the earlier thread as well. Creating different threads only makes it difficult to follow the developments.

@waz if you dont mind, czn you please merge the threads sir.

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## ptldM3

Water Car Engineer said:


> This whole thing will be a waste of time if they're going to buy off the shelf. If the French dont want to comply with the original RFI or even compromise and meet at the middle, **** the French.






See post #22 i gave some viable options for what India can do. The last option is the best, but yes if India outright cancels the Rafale deal i would think that France would crawl to the negotiation table. I'm not sure why anyone would want to deal with France after the MMRCA and Mistral fiasco.


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## The_Sidewinder

black-hawk_101 said:


> Then another 50 M-2000s?



why buy that when you can give a follow up order of Rafale which is a generation ahead. Or like some other members suggested go for F18e/f super hornet. I bet Americans will happily sell us a few growlers as well just to sweeten the deal.

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## Established_1965

Ok! 

They are buying 60-65 from France and what are they going to do for rest 60?? It's so confusing


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## ganesh177

Bang Galore said:


> They are just posting Nitin Gokhale's piece, there's a link to that at the bottom.



Thats what i said.
Redff catching same story.


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## 45'22'

60 fighter = 45000crore
1 fighter = 750 crore
=122 million $

Sounds good



The_Sidewinder said:


> why buy that when you can give a follow up order of Rafale which is a generation ahead. Or like some other members suggested go for F18e/f super hornet. I bet Americans will happily sell us a few growlers as well just to sweeten the deal.


3 4 squadrons of super hornets will be too good

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## anant_s

Water Car Engineer said:


> This whole thing will be a waste of time if they're going to _buy off the shelf_.


This thing would open a Pandora box. We donot know what is the price tag for Rafale and EFT, but if the idea is to go for off the shelf procurement, why didn't India go with Typhoon, considering they were ready to induct India as a program partner, which could've meant far more customization than what we can expect from Rafale and perhaps bargained a better price too.
Or is there another twist in the story?

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## NKVD

As of now this news is looking like farce


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## That Guy

shree835 said:


> hmmm...Time to order some China Maal.


Perhaps, may be not. It's I'd wait and see.


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## It.is.all.mudi's.fault

Established_1965 said:


> Ok!
> 
> They are buying 60-65 from France and what are they going to do for rest 60?? It's so confusing




This is not an official news and has been started by a dubious source. Don't read much into it.

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## Thorough Pro

seems like there is no break through, France refused to budge and india lowered the numbers to save face, but the question is would the price for 60 remain the same as for 126? or go up? does that mean re-negotiation of price and terms? another 2/3 years or more? 




ashok321 said:


> India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources
> 
> 
> *Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely*
> 
> India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.
> 
> The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.
> 
> The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
> Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.
> 
> According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.
> 
> The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.

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## Water Car Engineer

anant_s said:


> This thing would open a Pandora box. We donot know what is the price tag for Rafale and EFT, but if the idea is to go for off the shelf procurement, why didn't India go with Typhoon, considering they were ready to induct India as a program partner, which could've meant far more customization than what we can expect from Rafale and perhaps bargained a better price too.
> Or is there another twist in the story?




This deal was supposed to be steroids for Indian aviation, now it's about to be a regular procurement. What a waste of tiiimmmmeeee.




ptldM3 said:


> See post #22 i gave some viable options for what India can do. The last option is the best, but yes if India outright cancels the Rafale deal i would think that France would crawl to the negotiation table. I'm not sure why anyone would want to deal with France after the MMRCA and Mistral fiasco.



MIG 35 and the Griphen were like the lowest on the desired totem pole.

Boeing and TATA Advanced Systems Limited team up to make Silent Hornet.

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## Archie

maybe its just Tranche 1
like the case with MKI
where the initial deal was for 50 Aircrafts, 
IAF liked them so they ended up ordering 272 of them in 4 batches

who knows
maybe these 60-63 jets are a stopgap, so as to allow IAF some room.

If you people take a look at the maths, then you will find out that IAF has marked 12 Sqds of Mig21/27 for retirement in next 8 years, 8 of these sqds will be retired by 2020
will our Induction outlook till now only involved delivery of remaining 4 MKI sqds and 2 sqds of LCA MK1
fast track induction of 3 Rafale Sqds could help in offsetting the drop in sad strength


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## The_Sidewinder

45'22' said:


> 60 fighter = 45000crore
> 1 fighter = 750 crore
> =122 million $
> 
> Sounds good
> 
> 
> 3 4 squadrons of super hornets will be too good




Deal will also include training, spares, support equipment, various gurantees. So aint be as costly as it looks.



Water Car Engineer said:


> Boeing and TATA Advanced Systems Limited team up to make Silent Hornet.



Looks good, really really really good.

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## NKVD

The news have dubious source it's looking same as TOI blunder of month back all the guys here are seriously trolled by this nithin gokhle


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## ptldM3

Water Car Engineer said:


> This deal was supposed to be steroids for Indian aviation, now it's about to be a regular procurement. What a waste of tiiimmmmeeee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MIG 35 and the Griphen were like the lowest on the desired totem pole.





The Mig-35 was an early prototype, even if it were mature, it did not have much of a chance because India wanted to branch out and diversify their aircraft fleet. And i wasn't talking about the Mig-35. Go back and see which aircraft i mentioned last. Hint, it has DSI

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## fatman17

Cost per aircraft would definitely go up. 
Anyway 60 Rafale is a potent force. This probably means additional order for SU30MKIS to make up the numbers.

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## The_Sidewinder

NKVD said:


> The news have dubious source it's looking same as TOI blunder of month back all the guys here are seriously trolled by this nithin gokhle



he he he
I told Supersubrayan aka India4ver that sabki kissine firki leli..


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## Water Car Engineer

ptldM3 said:


> The Mig-35 was an early prototype, even if it were mature, it did not have much of a chance because India wanted to branch out and diversify their aircraft fleet. And i wasn't talking about the Mig-35. Go back and see which aircraft i mentioned last. Hint, it has DSI




JF17's DSI is too complex to produce in India(due to it being alien tech @Superboy), your point is void.

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## ptldM3

Water Car Engineer said:


> JF17's DSI is to complex to produce in India(due to it being alien tech @Superboy), your point is void.





Indeed, DSI is too complicated to master even the Russians can not do it. But i'm talking about blending in with the enemy 


It's called strategery

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## hkdas

if NDA gov. sign this contract it will be the biggest blunder in the history of IAF. all these years of waiting for ToT is now gone with wind. modi's "make in india" is now is "make in france." the current gov. now saying pitty excuses by blaming previous gov. if this gov want then they can negotiate with euro fighter, they are ready to offer ToT. why this french dilemma?? if france is unwilling to provide the ToT then go for EF. but the decision of 60 rafeal with out ToT is a blunder.

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## Water Car Engineer

ptldM3 said:


> Indeed, DSI is too complicated to master even the Russians can not do it. But i'm talking about blending in with the enemy
> 
> 
> It's called strategery




DSI has it's own artificial intelligence, and can sees through fake, unpure DSI. *[1]*

*Citation
[1]*@Superboy


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## NKVD

fatman17 said:


> Cost per aircraft would definitely go up.
> Anyway 60 Rafale is a potent force. This probably means additional order for SU30MKIS to make up the numbers.


No because all the Aircraft's will manufactured in France which already has an assembly line.

Although this news is just a another brainfart from the media.


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## Indo-guy

That Guy said:


> If true, than it is a major cut from the original plan. Why even bother with the Rafale than?



Because WE LOVE YOU LOL 

Just kidding ...


----------



## ashok321

Established_1965 said:


> Ok!
> 
> They are buying 60-65 from France and what are they going to do for rest 60?? It's so confusing



The deal would be "restructured" quickly, should both parties agree.

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## The SC

Luca1 said:


> It will be cheaper as there is no TOT or facility set up.



With the same profits going to France as if the real big deal went through. This deal will further stimulate the French economy, Labor is expansive there, add to it the weapons, the training and the spare parts, all of which has to be paid for by India. Maintenance will be a headache and strings are going to be attached, it might also be subject to sanctions in the future or refusal to sell weapons and spare parts for any convenient reasons to France, NATO or the US.
On the other hand the Rafales are some of the best fighter planes out there, and if India can handle all these possibilities then it should go for them.


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## Archie

We could probably save a lot of money this way
however we can say goodbye to a 42 sqd airforce

Even I have tried to confirm this from my grapewine in MHA
and All they are saying is that NDA does not want to spend more than Rs 42000 crores which have already been budgeted, for the Rafale.

This money only buys 60-63 Rafales without TOT 
Buying 126 Rafales with TOT will cost Rs 100000 crores , something which modi doesn't want


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## uparyupari

This actually is the most logical and practical solution. 

Price is a major concern for GoI and this can ensure we get the aircrafts cheaper than the initial offer price. 

IAF will be unshackled from HAL, IAF don't have to carry HAL and HAL don't have to pretend its carrying IAF. 

India can now Focus on the AMCA. You do not need to buy aircrafts for ToT  ....... you can just pay money and get the necessary ToT where India is lagging. 

Its not a Win-Win solution, its a lose-lose solution. That was the only way out. 

HAL will now have to fight for survival and it will either have to perform or perish. 

IAF will get the aircrafts MUCH faster and of good build quality that will help them reach the numbers quickly. 

HAL and IAF can now also focus on PAK FA, this deal will make the Russians happy too. 

This deal would not have been "Make in India". LCA and AMCA is the REAL MAKE IN INDIA. These programs will get a BIG boost. IAF will be more inclined to support these projects now. 

Each of these points stand on its own merit, so I am certain this news is probably true.

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## ganesh177

If eventually it was going to end up buying 60 off the shelves, then why wait for 10+ years for TOT and make in india ?
How are you going to repay the lost 10+ years.

This whole thing is not making any sense to me.


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## nair

Let us wait for Official confirmation on this.... We had enough face palm scenario on MMRCA.......

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## KIND

TOI reporting 40


PM Modi arrives in France, India 'mulls direct purchase of Rafale jets' - The Times of India


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## uparyupari

ganesh177 said:


> If eventually it was going to end up buying 60 off the shelves, then why wait for 10+ years for TOT and make in india ?
> How are you going to repay the lost 10+ years.
> 
> This whole thing is not making any sense to me.



You can NEVER MAKE UP FOR LOST TIME. 

Time once gone is gone for ever. That is why its so precious.


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## anant_s

ptldM3 said:


> Indeed, DSI is too complicated to master even the Russians can not do it. But i'm talking about blending in with the enemy
> 
> 
> It's called strategery


True true!
can't win over them, join them!!
DSI ahoy...

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## SrNair

If this is correct then it would be an another wastage of our resources without any.breakthrough technology.
UPA another contribution .
What kind of idiots created this agreement .?

@sancho @SpArK


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## Thorough Pro

wrong, original plan/offer was for 8 manufactured in France remaining in india (at much cheaper labour). now with all (60-70) made in France (with high labour cost), price would definitely go up




NKVD said:


> No because all the Aircraft's will manufactured in France which already has an assembly line.
> 
> Although this news is just a another brainfart from the media.


----------



## nair

SrNair said:


> If this is correct then it would be an another wastage of our resources without any.breakthrough technology.
> UPA another contribution .
> What kind of idiots created this agreement .?
> 
> @sancho @SpArK



How you know it is UPA's fault?


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## ptldM3

Water Car Engineer said:


> *DSI has it's own artificial intelligence, and can sees through fake, unpure DSI*. *[1]*
> 
> *Citation
> [1]*@Superboy














If this is true, god help us all.


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## anant_s

hkdas said:


> if NDA gov. sign this contract it will be the biggest blunder in the history of IAF. all these years of waiting for ToT is now gone with wind. modi's "make in india" is now is "make in france." the current gov. now saying pitty excuses by blaming previous gov. if this gov want then they can negotiate with euro fighter, they are ready to offer ToT. why this french dilemma?? if france is unwilling to provide the ToT then go for EF. but the decision of 60 rafeal with out ToT is a blunder.


Well if we look at the whole issue from IAF's point of view, picture should get clearer. When the whole thing started back in 2007, IAF would've thought of getting the machines by now (8 years wait) and unfortunately all they have is Zilch. ACM would be the least concerned person if his jets are made in India or anywhere else till he has his fighters. The negotiations have been never ending and frustrating and in this regard, it looks IAF is loosing patience by the day.
IMHO by this possible arrangement of getting 3-3.5 odd squadrons, government actually might have brought some time and it might still negotiate a deal on lines of MMRCA tender. But yes the question remains, if this is what decision makers had in mind, why today and not sometime earlier.
& yes i think a thought should've been given to Typhoon, i'm sure we would've got a much better deal there.


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## Stealth

LOL... French resize Indians ... 126 to 60 or 40 - not fully TOT .... check em Out if if if this news is true even lol its purely pressure on the Indian military establishment that Pakistan and China is gearing up... on the other side, Indians are busy in delaying lol.... but one thing... whether 40 or 60 or 10.... Rafale is superb platform in terms of quality but reliability or battle proven test against same competitor....


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## Bang Galore

ganesh177 said:


> If eventually it was going to end up buying 60 off the shelves, then why wait for 10+ years for TOT and make in india ?
> How are you going to repay the lost 10+ years.
> 
> This whole thing is not making any sense to me.



The deal had been allowed to get to this point by the previous government and then Antony wanted to do nothing with it & refused to sign. This government inherited the problem, That deal was dead because of the problems it was likely to cause in any CAG assessment and this government, especially Parrikar & Modi didn't want any of that headache. In the meantime, the Russians have probably offered some sort of a sweet deal and the government wanted to somehow get away from this budget killing monster. To do so bluntly would cause some bad blood with the French, this is probably a face saver for all concerned with the IAF too getting a part of what they wanted.

Not the ideal solution but a compromise solution.

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## anant_s

KIND said:


> TOI reporting 40
> 
> 
> PM Modi arrives in France, India 'mulls direct purchase of Rafale jets' - The Times of India


Well ToI is also quoting Gokhale's blog and i'm still trying to search an independent source. Lets wait till evening today, something sure is brewing.



Bang Galore said:


> The deal had been allowed to get to this point by the previous government and then Antony wanted to do nothing with it & refused to sign. This government inherited the problem, That deal was dead because of the problems it was likely to cause in any CAG assessment and this government, especially Parrikar & Modi didn't want any of that headache. In the meantime, the Russians have probably offered some sort of a sweet deal and the government wanted to somehow get away from this budget killing monster. To do so bluntly would cause some bad blood with the French, this is probably a face saver for all concerned with the IAF too getting a part of what they wanted.
> 
> Not the ideal solution but a compromise solution.


Bang on assessment.
It looks like a please all settlement (everybody gets something) and probably a chance for government to get out of the mess. Had this deal fallen through, it would've had implications on other issues and tenders as well.
& just get a feeling this was the Plan B for the government.


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## Red Wolf

*Uncharacteristically, the french did not surrender to the Indians during negotiations.*


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## Kompromat

So HAL is out of the game?

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## SpArK

News put up by some guy called nithin gokhale..

Not buying it.


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## ito

C130 said:


> might as well of bought the F-35 then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or 126+ super hornets/growlers with TOT



Seems with PAK FA moving no where, India may have to go for F-35s. Anyway there are plan to equip the second Air Craft career being built in India with F-35s


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## hkdas

anant_s said:


> Well if we look at the whole issue from IAF's point of view, picture should get clearer. When the whole thing started back in 2007, IAF would've thought of getting the machines by now (8 years wait) and unfortunately all they have is Zilch. ACM would be the least concerned person if his jets are made in India or anywhere else till he has his fighters. The negotiations have been never ending and frustrating and in this regard, it looks IAF is loosing patience by the day.
> IMHO by this possible arrangement of getting 3-3.5 odd squadrons, government actually might have brought some time and it might still negotiate a deal on lines of MMRCA tender. But yes the question remains, if this is what decision makers had in mind, why today and not sometime earlier.
> & yes i think a thought should've been given to Typhoon, i'm sure we would've got a much better deal there.



dassault was ready to partner with a privet indian company and they also guarantee the quality if they built some parts of the jet with some indian privet company, it was MoD which rejected this and they said that they cannot divert from orginal conditions. and now they are building the jet in France. if MoD agrees with the dassaut to joint manufacture of rafeal in india with a privet company, it will be a great beneficial for indian companies.



Stealth said:


> LOL... French resize Indians ... 126 to 60 or 40 - not fully TOT .... check em Out if if if this news is true even lol its purely pressure on the Indian military establishment that Pakistan and China is gearing up... on the other side, Indians are busy in delaying lol.... but one thing... whether 40 or 60 or 10.... Rafale is superb platform in terms of quality but reliability or battle proven test against same competitor....



what pakistan have to challenge india in air combat?? your toy Jf-17?? jf-17 are inferior or same as Hal tajes. yes, china have a serious advantage over indian air force,


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## ravinderpalrulez

@livefist
FLASH:Top sources confirm: India & France to announce brand-new deal for 3 squadrons (60-63 aircraft) of @Dassault_OnAir Rafale for the IAF.

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## SrNair

Because they were the rulers during last 10 years.They couldnt find excellent technocrats from pur bureacracy .French is playing with the loopholes in that agreements.
Ball was in our court until those Egyptian deal.
Now they have space and we dont have that.
Present govt dont have any choice with these ever decreasing squadrons.
Even in this case it will cause 10 billion $.One hell of policy paralysis and it played very well.
In an economic perspective we will save billions of $ but we dont get any technology.


nair said:


> How you know it is UPA's fault?


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## SpArK

A Government to Government deal will be good at this point.




It will further reduce prices as negotiations will be based on L1 price.
There will be ToT assurance from French government itself.
No issues of messup from HAL.
Hidden deals beneficial for LCA-Mk2.
Purchase of the latest.
French hopeful for further orders in future will comply with most of our demands.

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## It.is.all.mudi's.fault

NKVD said:


> As of now this news is looking like farce




Why Madface??

I would say that zero rafales are better than 60 with no ToT.



SpArK said:


> A Government to Government deal will be good at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will further reduce prices as negotiations will be based on L1 price.
> There will be ToT assurance from French government itself.
> No issues of messup from HAL.
> Hidden deals beneficial for LCA-Mk2.
> Purchase of the latest.
> French hopeful for further orders in future will comply with most of our demands.




It would be good only if some of rafales are made in India and we get same ToT as before, something which seem unlikely with order of just 63 aircrafts.


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## SpArK

It.is.all.mudi's.fault said:


> It would be good only if some of rafales are made in India and we get same ToT as before, something which seem unlikely with order of just 63 aircrafts.




If the news is correct, then ToT will be surely there .

No need to assume stuff based on ur political affiliations.

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## Archie

Horus said:


> So HAL is out of the game?



It seems so.
France can deliver 60-63 Aircrafts in 5 years, compared to HAL which would take 8-9 years to deliver 60 aircrafts.

Our Sqds strength is going to fall to 28 Sqds by 2020 unless another fighter jet is ordered. These Rafales will ensure that Fighter Strength doesnot fall below the critical threshold of 650 Aircrafts
The price is estimated to be at 9 Billion USD for 63 Fighters without TOT, but including maintenence, training and spares for 10 year warranty period. add another 2 Billion USD for the weapons package.
The figure is still less than half the 25 Billion USD quoted by Dassault for 126 Aircrafts with TOT and everything else


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## The_Sidewinder

Livefist (@livefist) on Twitter

Livefist
@ livefist 22m
FLASH:Top sources confirm: India &
France to announce brand-new deal
for 3 squadrons (60-63 aircraft) of
@Dassault_OnAir Rafale for the IAF.

@SuperSubrayan my sincere appologies..

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## deckingraj

hkdas said:


> if NDA gov. sign this contract it will be the biggest blunder in the history of IAF. all these years of waiting for ToT is now gone with wind. modi's "make in india" is now is "make in france." the current gov. now saying pitty excuses by blaming previous gov. if this gov want then they can negotiate with euro fighter, they are ready to offer ToT. why this french dilemma?? if france is unwilling to provide the ToT then go for EF. but the decision of 60 rafeal with out ToT is a blunder.



You need to look at things from holistic perspective... Just imagine since when we are talking about MMRCA....8 years have passed and so far nothing concrete on the table...In its extensive trials Rafael came out to be a clear winner...so it ideally makes sense that IAF get its hands on Rafael...Even if you ignore that and start negotiating on Eurofighter then it will take another 2-3 years before things are thrashed out...because TOT is an absolute must(in that case as well), no?? Thereafter the work on delivery will start...So add another 5 years before IAF gets its first few Eurofighters....Imagine what will happen to our squadron strength by then??

In short apart from Rafael there is no other option...however if we go by what news is suggesting then may be we will get some breather on re-negotiation of TOT for remaining jets....


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## ito

Archie said:


> It seems so.
> France can deliver 60-63 Aircrafts in 5 years, compared to HAL which would take 8-9 years to deliver 60 aircrafts.
> 
> Our Sqds strength is going to fall to 28 Sqds by 2020 unless another fighter jet is ordered. These Rafales will ensure that Fighter Strength doesnot fall below the critical threshold of 650 Aircrafts
> The price is estimated to be at 9 Billion USD for 63 Fighters without TOT, but including maintenence, training and spares for 10 year warranty period. add another 2 Billion USD for the weapons package.
> The figure is still less than half the 25 Billion USD quoted by Dassault for 126 Aircrafts with TOT and everything else



These are all speculations. Unless it is official, we cannot say anything


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## uparyupari

It.is.all.mudi's.fault said:


> Why Madface??
> 
> I would say that zero rafales are better than 60 with no ToT.
> 
> It would be good only if some of rafales are made in India and we get same ToT as before, something which seem unlikely with order of just 63 aircrafts.



Not if the cost of ToT is REMOVED from the cost of purchasing those Rafale. 

Then its just the cost of buying Rafale for the IAF.


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## hkdas

SrNair said:


> Because they were the rulers during last 10 years.They couldnt find excellent technocrats from pur bureacracy .French is playing with the loopholes in that agreements.
> Ball was in our court until those Egyptian deal.
> Now they have space and we dont have that.
> Present govt dont have any choice with these ever decreasing squadrons.
> Even in this case it will cause 10 billion $.One hell of policy paralysis and it played very well.
> In an economic perspective we will save billions of $ but we dont get any technology.



ball is still in our court. if french don't agree with india then we should go for EF or super hornet.


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## Pichkari

This is called a surgical decision.
Had it been the previous gov. the deal would have been scrapped and antony would have then just sat there knowing not what to do.

This also sets a good precedence.How often have we heard of the country spending far more than planned in defence acquisitions.Some kind of discipline is needed.We are not a rich nation.

Use that money for our own defence industry and projects.
Benefits will only be visible later

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## SpArK

*The benefits of such deal *

*1. Free up funds for AMCA , MK-2, and engine development programmes
2. Free up facilities and manpower of HAL for faster LCA Mk-1 and MK-2 production.
3. Hard bargain and not clause bound and price reduction.
4. ToT was offered for such a deal with Canada earlier, hence not an issue.
5 .French hopeful for further orders will be a bargaining chip.
6. Since the MMRCA deal is off, we are free to approach other manufacturers and we have data's of their jets based on evaluation.*

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## anant_s

hkdas said:


> dassault was ready to partner with a privet indian company and they also guarantee the quality if they built some parts of the jet with some indian privet company, it was MoD which rejected this and they said that they cannot divert from orginal conditions. and now they are building the jet in France. if MoD agrees with the dassaut to joint manufacture of rafeal in india with a privet company, it will be a great beneficial for indian companies.


That HAL thing complicated the issues. 
But recent pitch by NDA government over Make in India might change the things here. Scrapping the tender actually gives Dassault a chance to assemble the things here in India (Hypothetically speaking they will not be bound with original tender conditions) with a private player of their choice. In this manner (assuming Offset clause remains intact in new contract), there will be a huge investment in Indian aviation industry, IAF will get its fighter of choice, Dassault will not have any issues and both governments can have something to smile about. My only concern is How much Technology Transfer will take place? my guess is that both governments might reach on some agreement with respect to critical technologies (engines, Radars, Avionics etc) which India might want to use for its own domestic products in future.
Lets see how things pan out.



SpArK said:


> If the news is correct, then ToT will be surely there .


That looks like the compromise reached between both parties. And (just a guess) that explains why only 60 fighters now. Based on how France keeps up with the schedule and promises, more pieces could be on order with India given a right of reserved price, for follow on order.


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## It.is.all.mudi's.fault

uparyupari said:


> Not if the cost of ToT is REMOVED from the cost of purchasing those Rafale.
> 
> Then its just the cost of buying Rafale for the IAF.




Yes.

Remove TOT, Remove cost of Industrial management knowledge that would have been transferred to India, Remove cost of setting up indigenous assembly line  and cost of Rafale would certainly fall drastically.

We needed to assemble western plane in-house to know how to manage production systems which would have benefited both LCA and AMCA project. Now that is all but lost.


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## ito

SpArK said:


> *The benefits of such deal *
> 
> *1. Free up funds for AMCA , MK-2, and engine development programmes
> 2. Free up facilities and manpower of HAL for faster LCA Mk-1 and MK-2 production.
> 3. Hard bargain and not clause bound and price reduction.
> 4. ToT was offered for such a deal with Canada earlier, hence not an issue.
> 5 .French hopeful for further orders will be a bargaining chip.
> 6. Since the deal is off, we are free to approach other manufacturers and we have data's of their jets based on evaluation.*



Also no need to buy so many 4.5 gen Rafale when India should be concentrating on getting 5 gen fighters. 60 Rafale can fill the gap till India gets PAKFA or even better if it can develop AMCA


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## SpArK

ito said:


> Also no need to buy so many 4.5 gen Rafale when India should be concentrating on getting 5 gen fighters. 60 Rafale can fill the gap till India gets PAKFA or even better if it can develop AMCA



As France has *no other* 5th Gen plans, Rafale will mutate in the coming future into something different. 
Believe that too !

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## uparyupari

anant_s said:


> That HAL thing complicated the issues.
> But recent pitch by NDA government over Make in India might change the things here. Scrapping the tender actually gives Dassault a chance to assemble the things here in India (Hypothetically speaking they will not be bound with original tender conditions) with a private player of their choice. In this manner (assuming Offset clause remains intact in new contract), there will be a huge investment in Indian aviation industry, IAF will get its fighter of choice, Dassault will not have any issues and both governments can have something to smile about. My only concern is How much Technology Transfer will take place? my guess is that both governments might reach on some agreement with respect to critical technologies (engines, Radars, Avionics etc) which India might want to use for its own domestic products in future.
> Lets see how things pan out.



Not happening. For one, dassault is ONLY the assembling company, the PARTS for the Rafale comes from a 1000 different vendors based in France and all over the globe. Its called a supply chain. 

Now unless those vendors set up shop in India, nothing changes. 

Finally, You do not need to buy aricrafts to get ToT for engines, Radars, Avionics etc. Just pay money to those companies and get the ToT. That is what Royalty and IP is all about.



It.is.all.mudi's.fault said:


> Yes.
> 
> Remove TOT, Remove cost of Industrial management knowledge that would have been transferred to India, Remove cost of setting up indigenous assembly line  and cost of Rafale would certainly fall drastically.
> 
> We needed to assemble western plane in-house to know how to manage production systems which would have benefited both LCA and AMCA project. Now that is all but lost.



Production management is not an extraordinary skill to have, we already have it. Production technology is the key. That we can PURCHASE independent of Rafale deal. 

We can still assemble LCA and AMCA using western technology. What is stopping us from doing that ?


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## hkdas

deckingraj said:


> You need to look at things from holistic perspective... Just imagine since when we are talking about MMRCA....8 years have passed and so far nothing concrete on the table...In its extensive trials Rafael came out to be a clear winner...so it ideally makes sense that IAF get its hands on Rafael...Even if you ignore that and start negotiating on Eurofighter then it will take another 2-3 years before things are thrashed out...because TOT is an absolute must(in that case as well), no?? Thereafter the work on delivery will start...So add another 5 years before IAF gets its first few Eurofighters....Imagine what will happen to our squadron strength by then??
> 
> In short apart from Rafael there is no other option...however if we go by what news is suggesting then may be we will get some breather on re-negotiation of TOT for remaining jets....



the 8 years of delay is occurred due to the requirement of ToT to HAL. french was offered complete ToT to Indian privet company due to lack of trust in the quality of HAL, MOD rejected by saying that the ToT should be given exclusively to HAL. now they are going for direct purchase. that means waiting for 8 years of that deep ToT was for noting. and the modi's make in india slogan is also gone. if MoD agreed to manufacture the jet in india with some privet companies, then it will be beneficial to our companies and even in case of sanction the supply of spares won't be stopped. now MoD is signing this contract in fever of french company. 
if the jet is manufactured in india then it will help india to absorb the technology, create job opportunity and the grantee of supply of spares will be there.now we have zero gain, and we will be depend on french for the spare parts.


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## Indian Patriot

Trust Indian government to come up with such unlimited ch*tiyapa. All these talks of "mother of all deals" and wasting a decade on now meaningless trials and evaluations only to end up in a whimper. Let's see when these 60 rafales are inducted. Interesting to see how much credibility foreign companies give India after the scrapping of MMRCA deal.


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## SrNair

No ,,zero chance for that.For French the Rafale assembly line is not a loss.But if we looks for another option then diplomatic headache will begin .If it is Superhonet then it will be with Russia .If that is with EF then France ,US and Russia will turn against us .Plus we dont have time.EF is more expensive than Rafale .

This deal also has some advantages @SpArK mentioned that in here.


hkdas said:


> ball is still in our court. if french don't agree with india then we should go for EF or super hornet.

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## magudi

Bang Galore said:


> The deal had been allowed to get to this point by the previous government and then Antony wanted to do nothing with it & refused to sign. This government inherited the problem, That deal was dead because of the problems it was likely to cause in any CAG assessment and this government, especially Parrikar & Modi didn't want any of that headache. In the meantime, the Russians have probably offered some sort of a sweet deal and the government wanted to somehow get away from this budget killing monster. To do so bluntly would cause some bad blood with the French, this is probably a face saver for all concerned with the IAF too getting a part of what they wanted.
> 
> Not the ideal solution but a compromise solution.




Precisely put ^^^ this + dwindling numbers @hkdas

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## Bang Galore

uparyupari said:


> Finally, You do not need to buy aricrafts to get ToT for engines, Radars, Avionics etc. Just pay money to those companies and get the ToT. That is what Royalty and IP is all about.



I for one would be glad if this story pans out. I never bought all the grand stories of how that ToT from this deal would change India etc. Especially in the face of all the stories of how little actual useful technology would be available. Better, as you say, to seperate the two. We can look at costs & get a better understanding rather than be fobbed off saying the extra amount was for this or that ToT. The aircraft was always a good one but the deal stunk.

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## ito

SpArK said:


> As France has *no other* 5th Gen plans, Rafale will mutate in the coming future into something different.
> Believe that too !



Good if it happens...if India wants 5 gen Rafale. It can float a new contact. Anyway Modi has shown his business acumen by not going for 126 4.5 gen fighters when 5 gen fighters may be available by the end of this decade

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## Tipu7

8 years of struggle now MMRCA end up as 60 Rafales (not 126). 
More over there is some thing concerning about HAL since France refused to guarantee Rafales built by HAL. so is HAL compatibility questionable?

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## SuperSubrayan

Breaking News : Deal is through . India to sign 4bl dollar rafale deal for 3 squadrons .  ... 

I really wonder 124 will get made at home in future as 124+63 was our plan for MMRCA ...

Bloody congress messed up with its 10 years of negotiations . With lots of kick backs in mind

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## uparyupari

Bang Galore said:


> I for one would be glad if this story pans out. I never bought all the grand stories of how that ToT from this deal would change India etc. Especially in the face of all the stories of how little actual useful technology would be available. Better, as you say, to seperate the two. We can look at costs & get a better understanding rather than be fobbed off saying the extra amount was for this or that ToT. The aircraft was always a good one but the deal stink.



We need ToT for LCA and AMCA, that way we get value for money and real ToT, and IAF is forced to respect their Indian wives and not hollywood divas

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## ito

Tipu7 said:


> 8 years of struggle now MMRCA end up as 60 Rafales (not 126).
> More over there is some thing concerning about HAL since France refused to guarantee Rafales built by HAL. so is HAL compatibility is questionable?



Rafale is not for Pak. So be happy why burn.


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## gslv

ito said:


> Good if it happens...if India wants 5 gen Rafale. It can float a new contact. Anyway Modi has shown his business acumen by not going for 126 4.5 gen fighters when 5 gen fighters may be available by the end of this decade


5th gen Rafale, that ain't happening. It may be modified to home a few techs. That's all.


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## Tipu7

ito said:


> Rafale is not for Pak. So be happy why burn.


Right now they are not. But in case of war they will ............. I don't think India will put its Rafales against Chinese Su30 and J11b..............
remember the quote of Russian defense analyst? ''Chinese Sukhois will kill Rafales like mosquitos''

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## ito

gslv said:


> 5th gen Rafale, that ain't happening. It may be modified to home a few techs. That's all.



I was replying to Spark when he told that Rafale could mutate. If not Rafale, some other 5 gen fighter...may be PAKFA or even better AMCA


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## SuperSubrayan

It.is.all.mudi's.fault said:


> Why Madface??
> 
> I would say that zero rafales are better than 60 with no ToT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would be good only if some of rafales are made in India and we get same ToT as before, something which seem unlikely with order of just 63 aircrafts.


 ! Pathetic ! Tot will fire missiles or Rafale jets ? Most advanced 4++ jet in the world . 



The_Sidewinder said:


> Livefist (@livefist) on Twitter
> 
> Livefist
> @ livefist 22m
> FLASH:Top sources confirm: India &
> France to announce brand-new deal
> for 3 squadrons (60-63 aircraft) of
> @Dassault_OnAir Rafale for the IAF.
> 
> @SuperSubrayan my sincere appologies..



I don't what you said it's 90+ posts . But apologise accepted

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## anant_s

uparyupari said:


> Now unless those vendors set up shop in India, nothing changes.


Well Dassault as OEM has the intellectual Property Rights over those parts along with drawings and manufacturing process. There is no reason to believe why that can't be done in India if Dassault wishes to. It won't happen overnight, but (as was the case with Su 30 MKI), slowly one can increase indigenous content, Indian Industry can well do that.
& in this context that i believe, that India will ask France to Guarantee this ToT to India and use the initial number as Dangling Carrot infront policy. 
Now that Dassault gets the choice of selecting its partner in India, one of the biggest issues of OEM standing guarantee for all planes to be assembled in India will be sorted out and maybe we can get speedier deliveries.
The reason i say all this is since Dassault is already executing orders for France and Egpyt deal coming up, it will not be possible to cover a possible Indian order with facilities in France alone. It will have to bring in assembly lines to India to meet the contractual timeline obligations.


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## deckingraj

hkdas said:


> the 8 years of delay is occurred due to the requirement of ToT to HAL. french was offered complete ToT to Indian privet company due to lack of trust in the quality of HAL, MOD rejected by saying that the ToT should be given exclusively to HAL.


That was not the only concern...the exhorbant amount of cost escalation was another....and plz don't give entire 8 years to this....Also there is difference in collaboration with Private company and a public company..Remember we have FDI of now 49% in a private company?? Secondly a lot has been invested in HAL and they can't be simply shunned out because Dafael doesn't have trust in HAL....They may have issues however keep in mind HAL has lot of stake in IAF....



> now they are going for direct purchase. that means waiting for 8 years of that deep ToT was for noting. and the modi's make in india slogan is also gone. if MoD agreed to manufacture the jet in india with some privet companies, then it will be beneficial to our companies and even in case of sanction the supply of spares won't be stopped. now MoD is signing this contract in fever of french company.


I am not sure from the fear but we are not in a great situation...with Tejas being very delayed and the sorry plight of MMRCA...we cannot afford more here...As far as make in India slogan is concerned then yes it will take a back seat in this deal...however as said we don't have enough details here....who knows may be this is just a breather for IAF immediate concers??



> if the jet is manufactured in india then it will help india to absorb the technology, create job opportunity and the grantee of supply of spares will be there.now we have zero gain, and we will be depend on french for the spare parts.


For all these reasons MOD pushing france was not a bad thing to do, no?? As far as fear of sanctions is concerned then France has done a decent job in the past...so let's wait till we get complete details...


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## ito

Tipu7 said:


> Right now they are not. But in case of war they will ............. I don't think India will put its Rafales against Chinese Su30 and J11b..............
> remember the quote of Russian defense analyst? ''Chinese Sukhois will kill Rafales like mosquitos''



India has better SU 30's than Chinese SU 30's. On J11, coming from China, I cannot say the quality of these planes. Chinese are still nascent in fighter technology.


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## Indian Patriot

That Guy said:


> If true, than it is a major cut from the original plan. Why even bother with the Rafale than?



A lame face-saving gesture.

This whole thing is such an embarrassment. I won't be surprised if in future foreign companies don't take Indian tenders seriously. 

Since 2000 Indian has been undertaking trials for acquisition of artillery guns. The dumb heads in the military and government still cannot decide after 15 long years which gun to purchase and the security of an entire country is supposed to rest on their shoulders. Any deal will take 10 years minimum in evaluation and negotiation. Foreigners kept their patience because at least the deal went through and they got paid money. Now it turns out India takes 10 years to say no. 

Indian policy making is a joke.


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## hkdas

SrNair said:


> No ,,zero chance for that.For French the Rafale assembly line is not a loss.But if we looks for another option then diplomatic headache will begin .If it is Superhonet then it will be with Russia .If that is with EF then France ,US and Russia will turn against us .Plus we dont have time.EF is more expensive than Rafale .
> 
> This deal also has some advantages @SpArK mentioned that in here.



no diplomatic headache will be caused with french. this is their fault, we waited for 8 years.


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## uparyupari

anant_s said:


> Well Dassault as OEM has the intellectual Property Rights over those parts along with drawings and manufacturing process. There is no reason to believe why that can't be done in India if Dassault wishes to. It won't happen overnight, but (as was the case with Su 30 MKI), slowly one can increase indigenous content, Indian Industry can well do that.
> & in this context that i believe, that India will ask France to Guarantee this ToT to India and use the initial number as Dangling Carrot infront policy.
> Now that Dassault gets the choice of selecting its partner in India, one of the biggest issues of OEM standing guarantee for all planes to be assembled in India will be sorted out and maybe we can get speedier deliveries.
> The reason i say all this is since Dassault is already executing orders for France and Egpyt deal coming up, it will not be possible to cover a possible Indian order with facilities in France alone. It will have to bring in assembly lines to India to meet the contractual timeline obligations.



You are wrong. Dassault Only has the IP on how those parts get used in Rafale. The company who own those parts, own the IP. 

Still how does it matter if Dassault or anyone holds the IP ? That is irrelevant to the cause. 

Decision to shift production to India is a Political minefield in france and it will destroy their aerospace industry which they have nurtured for decades. Its not going to happen just because we wish it. French jobs and the health of their aerospace industry is Far more Important, that is why this deal did not go though in the first place. 

Nothing has changed since then.


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## anant_s

That Guy said:


> Regardless of the massive cut in numbers, it seems Pakistan may end up having to speed up it's procurement of a high tech fighter soon. Even in small numbers, 60 is more than enough of a threat.


Do you believe J-10B might interest policy makers?


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## nair

SpArK said:


> *The benefits of such deal *
> 
> *1. Free up funds for AMCA , MK-2, and engine development programmes
> 2. Free up facilities and manpower of HAL for faster LCA Mk-1 and MK-2 production.
> 3. Hard bargain and not clause bound and price reduction.
> 4. ToT was offered for such a deal with Canada earlier, hence not an issue.
> 5 .French hopeful for further orders will be a bargaining chip.
> 6. Since the MMRCA deal is off, we are free to approach other manufacturers and we have data's of their jets based on evaluation.*



This makes sense...... Especially when we know the capacity of our HAL.....

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## hkdas

deckingraj said:


> That was not the only concern...the exhorbant amount of cost escalation was another....and plz don't give entire 8 years to this....Also there is difference in collaboration with Private company and a public company..Remember we have FDI of now 49% in a private company?? Secondly a lot has been invested in HAL and they can't be simply shunned out because Dafael doesn't have trust in HAL....They may have issues however keep in mind HAL has lot of stake in IAF....
> 
> 
> I am not sure from the fear but we are not in a great situation...with Tejas being very delayed and the sorry plight of MMRCA...we cannot afford more here...As far as make in India slogan is concerned then yes it will take a back seat in this deal...however as said we don't have enough details here....who knows may be this is just a breather for IAF immediate concers??
> 
> 
> For all these reasons MOD pushing france was not a bad thing to do, no?? As far as fear of sanctions is concerned then France has done a decent job in the past...so let's wait till we get complete details...



but at the end india get no technology. and 3 years of negotiation was for noting.
and the plan for using the technology from rafel deal on AMCA and pak fa are also gone. now we need to develop all the technology by our own.


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## gslv

TOT is on the table according to ndtv. It says that the direct purchase deal is more attractive.

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## Tipu7

ito said:


> India has better SU 30's than Chinese SU 30's. On J11, coming from China, I cannot say the quality of these planes. Chinese are still nascent in fighter technology.


But Su30MKI are not for us? And Rafales are for China?
if Su30MKI are for China then simply Rafales are for Pakistan 
since they r for Pakistan so its our concern too


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## ito

Tipu7 said:


> But Su30MKI are not for us? And Rafales are for China?
> if Su30MKI are for China then simply Rafales are for Pakistan
> since they r for Pakistan so its our concern too



What I was saying is that SU MKI are good enough for Pak. Another 60 Rafales would not make a lot of difference to the strategic equation.


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## deckingraj

hkdas said:


> but at the end india get no technology. and 3 years of negotiation was for noting.


Well that's one way of looking at it...the other way would be...India tried to stick to its stand as it made sense however given the situation we are in and deadlock not going anywhere we need to do what's next best for us....


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## IND151

The OP is False!

French Company Dassault confirmed to media that it is not aware of any plans by India to buy french made Rafale fighter jet directly off the shelf, as reported in a certain section of India media. but media is still reporting that India has made a final decision on the purchase of Rafale jet and soon which will be discussed with french diplomats soon.

Big Announcement of Rafale Possible soon | idrw.org


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## SpArK

ito said:


> What I was saying is that SU MKI are good enough for Pak. Another 60 Rafales would not make a lot of difference to the strategic equation.



Please refrain from putting offtopics subjects and make the thread derail from the purchase news.

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## kaykay

$4 Billion for 63 aircrafts. I think Its a very good deal.

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## IND151

Chinese-Dragon said:


> If they are all built in France, what happens to the ToT?



Sources which suggest so are wrong.

Big Announcement of Rafale Possible soon | idrw.org


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## Archie

SpArK said:


> As France has *no other* 5th Gen plans, Rafale will mutate in the coming future into something different.
> Believe that too !



France is inducting 186 Rafales in the *Armée de l'Air* out of which they have already inducted 96 Aircrafts , Rafales will serve in French Air force till atleast yr 2040, when they will start retiring them in favour of a possible 5.5 Gen fighter.

Dassault is Desperate for an order, otherwise they will be out of the Fighter Business in 10 yrs. 

The situation is even more dire for Boeing, MIG and EADS, without fresh orders, they will have to shut their fighter manufacturing units by 2017

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## anant_s

SpArK said:


> 1. Free up funds for AMCA , MK-2, and engine development programmes
> 2. Free up facilities and manpower of HAL for faster LCA Mk-1 and MK-2 production.


Guess two important points, now that HAL might be out of picture, it can focus elsewhere. Essentially that means IAF can start getting more fighters in a quicker time and government saving a lot of money. 
& if Dassault starts assembling those machines in India, it will also allow private parties to get matured by the time AMCA and LCA Mk 2 start to go on assembly line, by pitching in with their own assembly lines. Surely there will be a mention of this in contract and understanding between the two countries. 
Overall, guess this might actually be a better scenario as far as India (& domestic aviation industry) is concerned. This is looking very consistent with Make in India philosophy, with government trying to bring in as many private players as possible. 
& should i say it sends a message to HAL as well.

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## SuperSubrayan

kaykay said:


> $4 Billion for 63 aircrafts. I think Its a very good deal.


And mark my words . Rest of the money will go into AMCA/MK2/Su35S and PakFa


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## gslv

hkdas said:


> but at the end india get no technology. and 3 years of negotiation was for noting.
> and the plan for using the technology from rafel deal on AMCA and pak fa are also gone. now we need to develop all the technology by our own.


TOT is on the table. France offers more on direct purchase according to ndtv.


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## SuperSubrayan

We will go for next 50-60 in time bound manner .


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## Thorough Pro

Sour grapes?



ito said:


> Also no need to buy so many 4.5 gen Rafale when India should be concentrating on getting 5 gen fighters. 60 Rafale can fill the gap till India gets PAKFA or even better if it can develop AMCA


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## ito

SpArK said:


> Please refrain from putting offtopics subjects and make the thread derail from the purchase news.



Yes Boss

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## Tipu7

ito said:


> What I was saying is that SU MKI are good enough for Pak. Another 60 Rafales would not make a lot of difference to the strategic equation.


I guess they will. Since Pakistan will go for some new plate form to counter Rafales.................and this will make a difference if PAF goes for J10b............ 36 or 64 of them will make a lot of difference


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## SpArK

nair said:


> This makes sense...... Especially when we know the capacity of our HAL.....




As far as practicability is concerned our ToT for engine has to come up from US (GE) and Russia (deal already on ).
Radar technologies has to come from Israel and Russia.
Avionics and other suites ToT from Israel and France like in MK-1, MK-2 and MKI.
Structural technologies from Russia and this deal.

Anyway ToT will surely be there in this deal.

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## ito

Thorough Pro said:


> Sour grapes?



Off topic!

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## ganesh177

> Second report says India will break orders into two and Second lot of 60 + aircrafts will be assembled in India without any Transfer of technology (TOT) and will be delivered in Kit form for fighter aircrafts to be assembled in India . Since it will be local assembly without any TOT means aircrafts could be assembled at faster rates at a similar price.



Big Announcement of Rafale Possible soon | idrw.org


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## kaykay

SuperSubrayan said:


> And mark my words . Rest of the money will go into AMCA/MK2/Su35S and PakFa


Right. I think its time govt listen to IAF's need as so far we relied on future projects ( like mmrca and lca saga) and ignored the current needs of IAF and as a result their sqdn strength gone down to 32-34. Its time we balance in current and future needs unlike in past.

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## anant_s

gslv said:


> It says that the direct purchase deal is more attractive.


certainly looks so, in the changed scenario, with government trying to bring in private players and money into aviation industry. I suppose if India can work out a reasonable ToT agreement with France on the issue and then the work is spread out in between a few Indian companies, it will be a far better scenario, than just keeping it confined to HAL.

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## SrNair

hkdas said:


> no diplomatic headache will be caused with french. this is their fault, we waited for 8 years.




Wrong.
This was our fault .This was for our requiremrnts not theirs


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## 帅的一匹

Modi 


Tipu7 said:


> Right now they are not. But in case of war they will ............. I don't think India will put its Rafales against Chinese Su30 and J11b..............
> remember the quote of Russian defense analyst? ''Chinese Sukhois will kill Rafales like mosquitos''


I beg Modi buy 60 Rafale ASAP to end this nightmare. If they can't afford, China will consider soft loan to India.


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## The_Sidewinder

kaykay said:


> Right. I think its time govt listen to IAF's need as so far we relied on future projects ( like mmrca and lca saga) and ignored the current needs of IAF and as a result their sqdn strength gone down to 32-34. Its time we balance in current and future needs unlike in past.



True that. It will be even better if Frace can deliver 40 of these birds in a quick successetions as they promised before. What ever it may be be, it will be game changer in northeastern skies.

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## SuperSubrayan

Breaking news : PM to cut throu Red tapes . Airforce requirements given highest priority . And purchase of Rafale on the table tonight during meeting with Hollande

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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> Modi
> 
> I beg Modi buy 60 Rafale ASAP to end this nightmare. If they can't afford, China will consider soft loan to India.




You want his email or something?


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## Windjammer

*Mother of all BREAKING NEWS on RAFALE!!!! ......*
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Come on guys, by now it deserves to be called, Great Grandmother of all BREAKING NEWS. *

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## The_Sidewinder

anant_s said:


> certainly looks so, in the changed scenario, with government trying to bring in private players and money into aviation industry. I suppose if India can work out a reasonable ToT agreement with France on the issue and then the work is spread out in between a few Indian companies, it will be a far better scenario, than just keeping it confined to HAL.



Agreed bhaisahab. Monopoly of HAL has not brought anything revolutionary to our aero industry yet.



Windjammer said:


> *Mother of all BREAKING NEWS on RAFALE!!!! ......*
> *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
> *Come on guys, by now it deserves to be called, Great Grandmother of all BREAKING NEWS. *



 let the boys to have their minutes of fame  dont be a pasrty pooper

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## nair

SpArK said:


> As far as practicability is concerned our ToT for engine has to come up from US (GE) and Russia (deal already on ).
> Radar technologies has to come from Israel and Russia.
> Avionics and other suites ToT from Israel and France like in MK-1, MK-2 and MKI.
> Structural technologies from Russia and this deal.
> 
> Anyway ToT will surely be there in this deal.



But i wonder how authentic is this news????We had 100's of breaking news on MMRCA......



SpArK said:


> You want his email or something?




For what? Moderation is pretty strong there


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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> You want his email or something?


If this deal can't go through, Indian members in this forum can't sleep tight. It really hurts their health. As a Prime Minister, Modi has the responsibility to meet the hope of the Indian members. Go get the fucking planes.


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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> If this deal can't go through, Indian members in this forum can't sleep tight. It really hurts their health. As a Prime Minister, Modi has the responsibility to meet the hope of the Indian members. Go get the fucking planes.



Oh okay.

Sleep/health= Deal.

Got it.

What else?

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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> Oh okay.
> 
> Sleep/health= Deal.
> 
> Got it.
> 
> What else?


Is this a real or fabricated news?


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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> Is this a real or fabricated news?



Its a very realistic fabricated cooked up news..

Sleep still at stake.

To be honest, we are not sure as of yet.

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## Bang Galore

*India to sign major defence deal with France for 60 Rafale fighter jets for IAF*


 Zakka Jacob, CNN-IBN

*New Delhi:* Prime Minister Narendra Modi is likely to sign a major defence deal with France in order to boost India's military capabilities and infrastructure. A new deal to buy 60 Rafale fighter jets is likely to be announced in a joint press conference by Modi and French President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.

Three squadrons of about 60 jets are to be bought in a new contract between the Government of India and Government of France. The deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft. The final signing of the MMRCA deal is yet to take place as India and France have some differences over the final amount.

India is keen to finish the acquisition before 2017 when a large number of old MiG squadrons will have to be phased out.






*The deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft.*

Modi arrived in France on Thursday night, the first leg of his three-nation tour. During his four-day stay, Modi will hold talks with Hollande and meet business leaders and the focus of the talks will be civil nuclear, defence and trade.

The two leaders are also expected to unveil Franco-Indian stamps. The highlight of the trip will be a boat ride on the Seine river which is being described as 'Naav pe charcha'.

In France, the Prime Minister will also visit the World War-I memorial and pay tributes to about 10,000 Indians who lost their lives while fighting alongside France. He will also visit UNESCO headquarters, Airbus facility and French space agency office.

Ministry of External Affairs spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin said, "The Prime Minister will discuss all issues including those of strategic nature. There will be discussions on defence and nuclear matters."

On the question of promoting 'Make in India' concept, Akbaruddin said, "'Make in India' is PM Modi's most important goal and he will promote the concept in France."

After wrapping up the first leg of his tour, Modi will head to Germany, where business and technology will be the focus his engagements aimed at attracting participation in the 'Make in India' campaign.

In the third and last leg of his tour, Modi will travel to Canada, marking the first standalone visit by an Indian Prime Minister in over 42 years.

India to sign major defence deal with France for 60 Rafale fighter jets for IAF - IBNLive

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## magudi

Wow 60 for 4B, I'd say go sign it

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## Bang Galore

*India to sign major defence deal with France for 60 Rafale fighter jets for IAF*


 Zakka Jacob, CNN-IBN



*New Delhi:* Prime Minister Narendra Modi is likely to sign a major defence deal with France in order to boost India's military capabilities and infrastructure. A new deal to buy 60 Rafale fighter jets is likely to be announced in a joint press conference by Modi and French President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.

Three squadrons of about 60 jets are to be bought in a new contract between the Government of India and Government of France. The deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft. The final signing of the MMRCA deal is yet to take place as India and France have some differences over the final amount.

India is keen to finish the acquisition before 2017 when a large number of old MiG squadrons will have to be phased out.





_The deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft._


Modi arrived in France on Thursday night, the first leg of his three-nation tour. During his four-day stay, Modi will hold talks with Hollande and meet business leaders and the focus of the talks will be civil nuclear, defence and trade.

The two leaders are also expected to unveil Franco-Indian stamps. The highlight of the trip will be a boat ride on the Seine river which is being described as 'Naav pe charcha'.

In France, the Prime Minister will also visit the World War-I memorial and pay tributes to about 10,000 Indians who lost their lives while fighting alongside France. He will also visit UNESCO headquarters, Airbus facility and French space agency office.

Ministry of External Affairs spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin said, "The Prime Minister will discuss all issues including those of strategic nature. There will be discussions on defence and nuclear matters."

On the question of promoting 'Make in India' concept, Akbaruddin said, "'Make in India' is PM Modi's most important goal and he will promote the concept in France."

After wrapping up the first leg of his tour, Modi will head to Germany, where business and technology will be the focus his engagements aimed at attracting participation in the 'Make in India' campaign.

In the third and last leg of his tour, Modi will travel to Canada, marking the first standalone visit by an Indian Prime Minister in over 42 years.

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## gslv

Bang Galore said:


> The deal is worth over $4 billion


Only 4 billion, the how 126 comes to 20 billion as said by many.


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## uparyupari

SuperSubrayan said:


> And mark my words . Rest of the money will go into AMCA/MK2/Su35S and PakFa



I hope not. They need to go into LAC and AMCA.


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## hkdas

gslv said:


> TOT is on the table. France offers more on direct purchase according to ndtv.



what you mean by ToT is still on Table?? french offer ToT for what?? india is not going to built any plane.

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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> Its a very realistic fabricated cooked up news..
> 
> Sleep still at stake.
> 
> To be honest, we are not sure as of yet.


hope Modi won't let you down this time. When he plans to be China rival, he means serious.


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## Abingdonboy

Guys let's not forget that Modi is pushing the "Make in India" in a HUGE way so I seriously doubt 60 Rafales bought off the shelf built in a foreign land with no ToT is what Modi would okay, there is more to this than meets the eye.....

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## Archie

Thorough Pro said:


> Sour grapes?



You cant even afford Sour grapes

Keep Flying the Super Duper JF17 with Alien spec DSI

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## magudi

gslv said:


> Only 4 billion, the how 126 comes to 20 billion as said by many.



That's the point 'said by many' but 'confirmed by none' 



Abingdonboy said:


> Guys let's not forget that Modi is pushing the "Make in India" in a HUGE way so I seriously doubt 60 Rafales bought off the shelf built in a foreign land with no ToT is what Modi would okay, there is more to this than meets the eye.....



But it looks like that's the case, all channels are reporting the same story now


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## Bang Galore

gslv said:


> Only 4 billion, the how 126 comes to 20 billion as said by many.



 I haven't the faintest idea. The Egyptians will commit suicide or more likely murder, if we got 60 planes for $ 4 billion. My own feeling is that we might actually buy some planes already in use with the French Air Force along with brand new planes.


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## Abingdonboy

magudi said:


> But it looks like that's the case, all channels are reporting the same story now


They are reporting one element of it perhaps, it doesn't make sense to only procure 60 Rafales anyway.

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## GR!FF!N

wanglaokan said:


> hope Modi won't let you down this time. When he plans to be China rival, he means serious.



"China rival"????  bad translator or insufficient knowledge in English??


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## hkdas

SrNair said:


> Wrong.
> This was our fault .This was for our requiremrnts not theirs



they don't want to give as deep ToT as per the original conditions. so it is their fault. the conditions were send during the RFP, and the french agreed to those condition at that time,


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## SuperSubrayan

Windjammer said:


> *Mother of all BREAKING NEWS on RAFALE!!!! ......*
> *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
> *Come on guys, by now it deserves to be called, Great Grandmother of all BREAKING NEWS. *


UK dreams came true !!! MMRCA likely be cancelled and New govt to govt agreement to be inked  win win for both of us U and Me to be precise

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## 帅的一匹

GR!FF!N said:


> "China rival"????  bad translator or insufficient knowledge in English??


then what it should be,Bhi?


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## Abingdonboy

anant_s said:


> certainly looks so, in the changed scenario, with government trying to bring in private players and money into aviation industry. I suppose if India can work out a reasonable ToT agreement with France on the issue and then the work is spread out in between a few Indian companies, it will be a far better scenario, than just keeping it confined to HAL.


This would seem to fit with the current GoI's methodology, with govt-govt deals there is far more scope for "sweetners" and to negotiate such things.

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## kaku1

Abingdonboy said:


> They are reporting one element of it perhaps, it doesn't make sense to only procure 60 Rafales anyway.


Gap filler maybe.


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## hkdas

deckingraj said:


> Well that's one way of looking at it...the other way would be...India tried to stick to its stand as it made sense however given the situation we are in and deadlock not going anywhere we need to do what's next best for us....


if we negotiate with EF, then the french will agreed to us. now they know that india don't have a plan B. our lack of planing is their power.

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## duhastmish

wanglaokan said:


> If this deal can't go through, Indian members in this forum can't sleep tight. It really hurts their health. As a Prime Minister, Modi has the responsibility to meet the hope of the Indian members. Go get the fucking planes.



Bagal mein nahin Dane buddi chali bhunane!
Means
Old lady doesn't have seed in her underarms. And she is gone to get them roasted .

Brother you don't have 5 yuan in your pocket and you talking of soft loan. More over if you can give us loan to buy 500 Rafael. Please do it we will attack you only and don't have to pay money.;-)


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## deckingraj

hkdas said:


> if we negotiate with EF, then the french will agreed to us. now they know that india don't have a plan B. our lack of planing is their power.


Nahi dost....we can't keep on negotiating with Eurofighter when rafael was declared the winner...This negotiation was on when both were contender...however once we declare the results we were supposed to ink the deal...now what prevented us from signing the deal is a big question mark...because TOT and cost clause were always there...now surely somebody screw up there....


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## hkdas

Big Announcement of Rafale Possible soon | idrw.org
French Company Dassault confirmed to media that it is not aware of any plans by India to buy french made Rafale fighter jet directly off the shelf, as reported in a certain section of India media. but media is still reporting that India has made a final decision on the purchase of Rafale jet and soon it will be discussed with french diplomats soon .
@kaku1 @SuperSubrayan @Bang Galore @deckingraj @Abingdonboy

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## Abingdonboy

kaku1 said:


> Gap filler maybe.


This would be my guess- 60 off the shelf Rafales whilst the larger production of Rafales inside India was being worked out and set up (I was always in favour of more Rafales off the shelf anyway) so I don't see this deal being confined to 60 units for the IAF alone as is being reported by some- that makes ZERO sense.



hkdas said:


> Big Announcement of Rafale Possible soon | idrw.org
> French Company Dassault confirmed to media that it is not aware of any plans by India to buy french made Rafale fighter jet directly off the shelf, as reported in a certain section of India media. but media is still reporting that India has made a final decision on the purchase of Rafale jet and soon it will be discussed with french diplomats soon .


This means little, until a deal is signed they would gain nothing by disclosing such information either way.

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## ashok321

Finally!
Its true!

India to buy 60+ Rafale jets off the shelf - Rediff.com India News

India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway.

By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.

The government's drastic decision to scrap the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about Rs 60,000 crore (Rs 600 billion) in precious foreign exchange.

The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost around Rs 45,000 crore (Rs 450 billion) to be paid out over the next four, five years instead of over one lakh crore rupees (Rs 1 trillion) necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.


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## Pichkari

Abingdonboy said:


> This would be my guess- 60 off the shelf Rafales whilst the larger production of Rafales inside India was being worked out and set up (I was always in favour of more Rafales off the shelf anyway) so I don't see this deal being confined to 60 units for the IAF alone as is being reported by some- that makes ZERO sense.
> 
> 
> This means little, until a deal is signed they would gain nothing by disclosing such information either way.



But we do have same number of mirages and mig29;s right.
So maybe with 60 rafaels indigenous production may be given priority?


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## SrNair

hkdas said:


> they don't want to give as deep ToT as per the original conditions. so it is their fault. the conditions were send during the RFP, and the french agreed to those condition at that time,




This is business dude.Suppliers will do anything to increase their profit.It is our responsibility to provide zero loopholes in our agreement.And our govt machinery failed in that thing.


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## Abingdonboy

Pichkari said:


> But we do have same number of mirages and mig29;s right.


Yes but those purchases were made when the IAF had a far smaller budget and when the threat environment was not as pronounced. 



Pichkari said:


> So maybe with 60 rafaels indigenous production may be given priority?


60 off the shelf Rafales would buy the IAF some much needed breathing room whilst the local (in India) production issues of far more Rafales are sorted out. This would be the most pragmatic way.



ashok321 said:


> The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost around Rs 45,000 crore (Rs 450 billion) to be paid out over the next four, five years instead of over one lakh crore rupees (Rs 1 trillion) necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.


Well this is just a dumb way of thinking comparing a govt-govt deal to what the MMRCA deal is/was meant to bring vis a vis local production, ToT etc etc is comparing apples and oranges and thus the costs will be very, VERY different.

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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> This would be my guess- 60 off the shelf Rafales whilst the larger production of Rafales inside India was being worked out and set up (I was always in favour of more Rafales off the shelf anyway) so I don't see this deal being confined to 60 units for the IAF alone as is being reported by some- that makes ZERO sense.





You know...we discounted Bharat Karnad's articles but he did say that Rafale was asked for an off the shelf purchase of 40 aircrafts already in the French air force & they kept the price high and the deal didn't happen. I think the larger deal is unlikely unless there is a follow on purchase in a couple of years. The MMRCA contract has to be dead to go down this route, makes no sense otherwise.

You are looking for sense in a crazy situation, I think all parties want a face saver on the way out of the MMRCA mess. IAF needs planes badly & this adds to their numbers quickly, Dassault & France get a deal, they don't end up looking completely like losers and GoI can move on to whatever plan they have. I'm fairly sure there is something more here, just not convinced that it is there with the French.


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## uparyupari

ashok321 said:


> Finally!
> Its true!
> 
> India to buy 60+ Rafale jets off the shelf - Rediff.com India News
> 
> India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway.
> 
> By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.
> 
> The government's drastic decision to scrap the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about Rs 60,000 crore (Rs 600 billion) in precious foreign exchange.
> 
> The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost around Rs 45,000 crore (Rs 450 billion) to be paid out over the next four, five years instead of over one lakh crore rupees (Rs 1 trillion) necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.



Unlikely to be True. 

45,000 Crores is more than 7 Billion $ or 120 Million $ per Rafale. 

That would SUCK since there is No ToT. 

Without ToT, Rafale should be less than 100 million $, or its a Rip off.

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## SRP

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586444510516752385


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## Pichkari

Abingdonboy said:


> Yes but those purchases were made when the IAF had a far smaller budget and when the threat environment was not as pronounced.
> 
> 
> 60 off the shelf Rafales would buy the IAF some much needed breathing room whilst the local (in India) production issues of far more Rafales are sorted out. This would be the most pragmatic way.
> 
> 
> Well this is just a dumb way of thinking comparing a govt-govt deal to what the MMRCA deal is/was meant to bring vis a vis local production, ToT etc etc is comparing apples and oranges and thus the costs will be very, VERY different.



i was thinking more along the lines of buying 60 off the shelf and giving proirity to tejas mk2 and AMCA.
20 billion is almost 5 times the annual budget of DRDO man.


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## deckingraj

Bang Galore said:


> You know...we discounted Bharat Karnad's articles but he did say that Rafale was asked for an off the shelf purchase of 40 aircrafts already in the French air force & they kept the price high and the deal didn't happen. I think the larger deal is unlikely unless there is a follow on purchase in a couple of years. The MMRCA contract has to be dead to go down this route, makes no sense otherwise.
> 
> You are looking for sense in a crazy situation, I think all parties want a face saver on the way out of the *MMRCA mess*. IAF needs planes badly & this adds to their numbers quickly, Dassault & France get a deal, they don't end up looking completely like losers and GoI can move on to whatever plan they have. I'm fairly sure there is something more here, just not convinced that it is there with the French.


I hope this nightmare gets over soon...however to be honest with you i want to screw those bunch of mother fukcers who screwed this deal...if India with a $10 billion worth of money can't pen a favorable deal with so much competition then god knows what are we capable off!!

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## Abingdonboy

Bang Galore said:


> You know...we discounted Bharat Karnad's articles but he did say that Rafale was asked for an off the shelf purchase of 40 aircrafts already in the French air force & they kept the price high and the deal didn't happen. I think the larger deal is unlikely unless there is a follow on purchase in a couple of years. The MMRCA contract has to be dead to go down this route, makes no sense otherwise.
> 
> You are looking for sense in a crazy situation, I think all parties want a face saver on the way out of the MMRCA mess. IAF needs planes badly & this adds to their numbers quickly, Dassault & France get a deal, they don't end up looking completely like losers and GoI can move on to whatever plan they have. I'm fairly sure there is something more here, just not convinced that it is there with the French.


I'm not too sure about that, I agree there is something else going on here but I don't think this is all about face saving I think this looks like the GoI trying a new, more pragmatic, approach to solving all the issue with the MMRCA i.e. delayed induction and issues with local production.


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## Guynextdoor2

Bang Galore said:


> Numbers will probably have to be made up from elsewhere, the way the French were going, this deal would have been a CAG nightmare. A G2G contract might be the way out.



I'm not sure that this deal will be a CAG nightmare. There is evidence that this is a very transparent process of selection this time. I think that might have been the problem. Like all things done under the congress is presented as corrupt, a lot of time might have been expended in looking for 'bribes' or 'faults'. That didn't come through so they're watering it down. The cost of bringing in any other platform with this for the medium role will be on the whole even bigger than any gains the French will give us.


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## uparyupari

SRP said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586444510516752385



114 million per Rafale, still too expensive.


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## Guynextdoor2

ganesh177 said:


> *Rediff catching same story.*
> 
> *Live! India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources*
> 
> *08:47India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources:
> Noted Strategic Affairs expert Nitin Gokhale says quoting highly-placed sources: India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago.
> 
> The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added.
> 
> Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process. The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.
> 
> Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed.
> 
> 
> Live! India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: sources - Rediff.com India News*



Means ZERO TOT and ZERO Make In Inida. I think this is pure poitics. This deal was done under congress so screw this.



Abingdonboy said:


> I'm not too sure about that, I agree there is something else going on here but I don't think this is all about face saving I think this looks like the GoI trying a new, more pragmatic, approach to solving all the issue with the MMRCA i.e. delayed induction and issues with local production.



I think this GOI screwing the deal because it was done under congress.


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## ashok321

uparyupari said:


> Unlikely to be True.
> 
> 45,000 Crores is more than 7 Billion $ or 120 Million $ per Rafale.
> 
> That would SUCK since there is No ToT.
> 
> Without ToT, Rafale should be less than 100 million $, or its a Rip off.



Wait for fine prints type.

France can still supply blueprints for Rafale, or who knows if they have decided to help India on engine technology...

Don't speculate.


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## Abingdonboy

Pichkari said:


> i was thinking more along the lines of buying 60 off the shelf and giving proirity to tejas mk2 and AMCA.
> 20 billion is almost 5 times the annual budget of DRDO man.


I guess this is another, and quite logical, plan IF there is a coordinated approach to this. It can't just be the IAF gets these 60 Rafales to meet their immediate needs (they wouldn't even do that given how far their Sqn strength has fallen) but their medium to long term needs are still unmet because the AMCA is nowhere and the FGFA project is a mess- the LCA Mk.2 can only do so much but it is not going to be a suitable substitute for the Rafale but would be a very nice compliment to it.


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## Guynextdoor2

ashok321 said:


> Wait for fine prints type.
> 
> France can still supply blueprints for Rafale, or who knows if they have decided to help India on engine technology...
> 
> Don't speculate.



I'm sure we can take large printouts of the blue print and hang it on HAL auditorium wall.

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## uparyupari

ashok321 said:


> Wait for fine prints type.
> 
> France can still supply blueprints for Rafale, or who knows if they have decided to help India on engine technology...
> 
> Don't speculate.



We are all speculating dude, even the media

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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> I guess this is another, and quite logical, plan IF there is a coordinated approach to this. It can't just be the IAF gets these 60 Rafales to meet their immediate needs (they wouldn't even do that given how far their Sqn strength has fallen) but their medium to long term needs are still unmet because the AMCA is nowhere and the FGFA project is a mess- the LCA Mk.2 can only do so much but it is not going to be a suitable substitute for the Rafale but would be a very nice compliment to it.



I don't think so. MMRCA and Tejas Mk2 and AMCA have space.


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## Bang Galore

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I'm not sure that this deal will be a CAG nightmare. There is evidence that this is a very transparent process of selection this time. I think that might have been the problem. Like all things done under the congress is presented as corrupt, a lot of time might have been expended in looking for 'bribes' or 'faults'. That didn't come through so they're watering it down. The cost of bringing in any other platform with this for the medium role will be on the whole even bigger than any gains the French will give us.




It had very little to do with the UPA_ (I'm not one of those blaming everything on corruption of the UPA)_, it wasn't about the selection process itself though some questions were raised about lifetime cost calculations. This was about the French jacking up the price after they were declared L1 to a point where the increased price they were asking for would have normally made them L2. Imagine explaining that to the CAG - _Rafale is L1 but costlier than L2..._.


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## uparyupari

In reality, this is just History repeating Itself  

The same thing happened to Mirage 2000 deal decades ago and we got stuck with 50 odd aircraft's. Now its the same thing all over again and we get 63 Rafale . 

The more things change, the more things remain the same.

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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Means ZERO TOT and ZERO Make In Inida. I think this is pure poitics. This deal was done under congress so screw this.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this GOI screwing the deal because it was done under congress.


IF this was the Congress's "baby" then perhaps but the MMRCA purchase was always an apolitical process and zero ToT and zero Make in India would actually be a huge screwup for Modi a his critics could, rightly, point out the contradiction of this move and his "Make in India" campaign. Put yourself in his shoes, he is pushing HARD for "Make in India" (part of the "Make in India" declarations on their official website and in their advertisements is along the lines of "make anything from fighter jets to engines in India" ) and has been stung by recent reports that he has failed on the defence front with his "Make in India" ambitions.

I don't buy right now that no Rafales will be built in India, this is going to happen one way or another, the details of this are simply not in the public domain yet.

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## Bang Galore

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I'm sure we can take large printouts of the blue print and hang it on HAL auditorium wall.

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## ashok321

uparyupari said:


> We are all speculating dude, even the media



Do what pleases you.


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## uparyupari

hkdas said:


> if we negotiate with EF, then the french will agreed to us. now they know that india don't have a plan B. our lack of planing is their power.



This is Plan B.

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## Guynextdoor2

Bang Galore said:


> It had very little to do with the UPA_ (I'm not one of those blaming everything on corruption of the UPA)_, it wasn't about the selection process itself though some questions were raised about lifetime cost calculations. This was about the French jacking up the price after they were declared L1 to a point where the increased price they were asking for would have normally made them L2. Imagine explaining that to the CAG - _Rafale is L1 but costlier than L2..._.



Yeah, and not one objective will be met when we buy them off the shelf. No TOT, no manufacturing, nothing. I'd point to the Sukhoi deal as the ideal- ordered in large numbers, customized superbly for us and in time HAL made entire aircraft. I think the Rafale could have given us that. Now with these kinds of joke decisions it'll affect our force strength only. This is what happens when people can't think of national interest over politics. Imagine what would have happened if ABVP had shelved the Sukhoi deal when he came to power?


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## Tshering22

Srinivas said:


> Buying 60 fighter jets manufactured in France is not an issue, But Indian Aero space Industry needs technological edge, for that a partnership with Dassault is a good move, I hope the remaining Rafales will be manufactured here in India.



He doesn't want to risk IAF's depleting numbers. HAL will be hammered now behind closed doors for not having the standards required to make and maintain Rafale. 

This break up seems to be the only sensible option if France reduced per unit price of the jet.


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## Bang Galore

*IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons*

*HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times, New Delhi*
|
Updated: Apr 10, 2015 Indian Air Force is pushing for direct purchase of two squadrons of French Rafale fighters to scale up its dwindling combat capabilities, especially against the backdrop of a combined threat from China and Pakistan, defence sources said.


The issue has gained momentum with Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday starting his two-day trip to France where he is expected to discuss the Rafale deal during meetings with the French leadership including President Francois Hollande.

India requires 45 fighter squadrons urgently to counter a "two-front threat--from China and Pakistan--but has only 34 squadrons with about 18 planes each.

HT reported on Friday that New Delhi is seriously considering the strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafale fighters through the government-to-government route to boost the IAF's combat readiness.

India had selected Rafale fighters over Typhoons in January, 2012 after the French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder.

The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.

However, the two sides haven't been able to seal a deal yet.

The decision to buy two squadrons directly reflects the urgency to boost the IAF's combat potential, the sources said, adding the IAF's traditional air superiority over Pakistan may be severely diluted if new fighters are not inducted at the earliest.

14 of the IAF squadrons are equipped with vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter planes.

In an exclusive interview to HT last September, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had said it was critical to keep the Rafale fighter deal on schedule as the IAF could not afford any more delays.

The IAF had told a Parliamentary panel last year that a "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan would be difficult to tackle, making a strong case for beefing up its force levels.

India is years behind the Chinese military with the Communist neighbour currently outnumbering the country's combat power by a 3:1 ratio. India's hopes to bridge the gap in the next 15-20 years depend on availability of funds.

Raha said at Aero India-2015 in Bengaluru that India had no Plan B if negotiations with Dassault Aviation to buy Rafale fighters collapsed.

He underlined the IAF needed to induct medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) at the earliest to make up for the drawdown in its fighter fleet.

"We are not working on Plan B. We only have Plan A (Rafale)," Raha said.

He ruled out the possibility of buying more Sukhoi-30 fighters if talks with Dassault Aviation failed. He said the Su-30 and the MMRCA complemented each other but could not replace each other.
IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons


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## Abingdonboy

uparyupari said:


> In reality, this is just History repeating Itself
> 
> The same thing happened to Mirage 2000 deal decades ago and we got stuck with 50 odd aircraft's. Now its the same thing all over again and we get 63 Rafale .
> 
> The more things change, the more things remain the same.


EXCEPT the world (and India) today is very different to the 1980s, whilst the numbers are similar there is no direct comparison to be made really between the Mirage 2000 purchase and the Rafale purchase. I'm willing to put money on the fact the IAF will get a lot more than 60 or so Rafales, a LOT more. No way are the IAF interested in inducting another type of a/c with all the requisite infrastructure, maintenance and logistical headaches attached with this for merely 60 odd birds. 

Remember the IAF wasn't happy with 60 Mirages to begin with, this is how we got this MMRCA drama- they wanted 126-200 more Mirage 2000s.


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## uparyupari

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Yeah, and not one objective will be met when we buy them off the shelf. No TOT, no manufacturing, nothing. I'd point to the Sukhoi deal as the ideal- ordered in large numbers, customized superbly for us and in time HAL made entire aircraft. I think the Rafale could have given us that. Now with these kinds of joke decisions it'll affect our force strength only. This is what happens when people can't think of national interest over politics. Imagine what would have happened if ABVP had shelved the Sukhoi deal when he came to power?



That is right, Modi is putting his "hate" for congress, above national interest  

Next, he will put his "hate " for muslims above national interest. 

After that, his hate for christians will come into play. 

Then his hate for women. 

Then his hate for advani. 

Did I miss anything ? Its all about Mudi


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## Abingdonboy

Bang Galore said:


> *IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons*
> 
> *HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times, New Delhi*
> |
> Updated: Apr 10, 2015 Indian Air Force is pushing for direct purchase of two squadrons of French Rafale fighters to scale up its dwindling combat capabilities, especially against the backdrop of a combined threat from China and Pakistan, defence sources said.
> 
> 
> The issue has gained momentum with Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday starting his two-day trip to France where he is expected to discuss the Rafale deal during meetings with the French leadership including President Francois Hollande.
> 
> India requires 45 fighter squadrons urgently to counter a "two-front threat--from China and Pakistan--but has only 34 squadrons with about 18 planes each.
> 
> HT reported on Friday that New Delhi is seriously considering the strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafale fighters through the government-to-government route to boost the IAF's combat readiness.
> 
> India had selected Rafale fighters over Typhoons in January, 2012 after the French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder.
> 
> The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.
> 
> However, the two sides haven't been able to seal a deal yet.
> 
> The decision to buy two squadrons directly reflects the urgency to boost the IAF's combat potential, the sources said, adding the IAF's traditional air superiority over Pakistan may be severely diluted if new fighters are not inducted at the earliest.
> 
> 14 of the IAF squadrons are equipped with vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter planes.
> 
> In an exclusive interview to HT last September, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had said it was critical to keep the Rafale fighter deal on schedule as the IAF could not afford any more delays.
> 
> The IAF had told a Parliamentary panel last year that a "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan would be difficult to tackle, making a strong case for beefing up its force levels.
> 
> India is years behind the Chinese military with the Communist neighbour currently outnumbering the country's combat power by a 3:1 ratio. India's hopes to bridge the gap in the next 15-20 years depend on availability of funds.
> 
> Raha said at Aero India-2015 in Bengaluru that India had no Plan B if negotiations with Dassault Aviation to buy Rafale fighters collapsed.
> 
> He underlined the IAF needed to induct medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) at the earliest to make up for the drawdown in its fighter fleet.
> 
> "We are not working on Plan B. We only have Plan A (Rafale)," Raha said.
> 
> He ruled out the possibility of buying more Sukhoi-30 fighters if talks with Dassault Aviation failed. He said the Su-30 and the MMRCA complemented each other but could not replace each other.
> IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons


Hmmm, 2 Sqns is actually only about 20-24 birds (interestingly the exact number the ToI had reported that India had purchased a few weeks ago if you remember) and the only thing this article says is the number of Rafales to be bought off the shelf has increased NOT the MMRCA is scrapped or 24-60 is the total number of Rafales to be bought for the IAF.


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## deckingraj

Abingdonboy said:


> IF this was the Congress's "baby" then perhaps but the MMRCA purchase was always an apolitical process and zero ToT and zero Make in India would actually be a huge screwup for Modi a his critics could, rightly, point out the contradiction of this move and his "Make in India" campaign. Put yourself in his shoes, he is pushing HARD for "Make in India" (part of the "Make in India" declarations on their official website and in their advertisements is along the lines of "make anything from fighter jets to engines in India" ) and has been stung by recent reports that he has failed on the defence front with his "Make in India" ambitions.
> 
> *I don't buy right now that no Rafales will be built in India, this is going to happen one way or another, the details of this are simply not in the public domain yet.*


however the criticism would be on whatever is available in the public...anyhow let's wait and watch...too much speculation right now!!


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## Bang Galore

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Yeah, and not one objective will be met when we buy them off the shelf. No TOT, no manufacturing, nothing. I'd point to the Sukhoi deal as the ideal- ordered in large numbers, customized superbly for us and in time HAL made entire aircraft. I think the Rafale could have given us that. Now with these kinds of joke decisions it'll affect our force strength only. This is what happens when people can't think of national interest over politics. Imagine what would have happened if ABVP had shelved the Sukhoi deal when he came to power?



That deal was probably not salvageable, not like Antony made any progress with it either. He saw the same problem & he didn't want his reputation to be taken to the cleaners by the CAG. This has nothing to do with politics, the French were not ready to play ball & all the wishes wouldn't have helped.


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## Pichkari

uparyupari said:


> In reality, this is just History repeating Itself
> 
> The same thing happened to Mirage 2000 deal decades ago and we got stuck with 50 odd aircraft's. Now its the same thing all over again and we get 63 Rafale .
> 
> The more things change, the more things remain the same.



May be its better this way.
The things worth getting from rafale tot were rbe2 asea, Spectra and engine but not after spending 20 billion.
Better to satisfy our short term needs and spend rest on developing indigenous tech.As i stated earlier 20 billion is almost 5 times the drdo budget.

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586412470257844225

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## uparyupari

Abingdonboy said:


> EXCEPT the world (and India) today is very different to the 1980s, whilst the numbers are similar there is no direct comparison to be made really between the Mirage 2000 purchase and the Rafale purchase. I'm willing to put money on the fact the IAF will get a lot more than 60 or so Rafales, a LOT more. No way are the IAF interested in inducting another type of a/c with all the requisite infrastructure, maintenance and logistical headaches attached with this for merely 60 odd birds.
> 
> Remember the IAF wasn't happy with 60 Mirages to begin with, this is how we got this MMRCA drama- they wanted 126-200 more Mirage 2000s.



IAF is NEVER happy. Its futile trying to make them happy. Best to work for National interest and not worry about IAF "happiness" or DRDO happiness or HAL happiness. 

They will find their own path. 

Dig a bit about our history of Mirage 2000 vs Mig 29 and our national confusion regarding what to buy and what to build. It is very similar to Rafale vs Pak Fa story. 

Which is why I said, the more things change, the more things remain the same.


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## Guynextdoor2

Bang Galore said:


> That deal was probably not salvageable, not like Antony made any progress with it either. He saw the same problem & he didn't want his reputation to be taken to the cleaners by the CAG. This has nothing to do with politics, the French were not ready to play ball & all the wishes wouldn't have helped.



I don't think CAG would have had a problem with this. One think that Antony did was to make sure this was done with transparence and no one has ever raised a finger on the process. I think we should have handled discussions with the French better. *Now you may not agree with me* *on that *but you will agree that _any option would have been better than this. This is the most expensive option with little TOT, manufacturing benefits. _


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## NKVD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586412470257844225


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## Guynextdoor2

@Bang Galore do you not belive then that a 126 order for EFT might have made sense? If you want to scrap Rafale because deal had become 'unsalvageable' as you said, then why go for 60. Give all to EFT?



uparyupari said:


> That is right, Modi is putting his "hate" for congress, above national interest
> 
> Next, he will put his "hate " for muslims above national interest.
> 
> After that, his hate for christians will come into play.
> 
> Then his hate for women.
> 
> Then his hate for advani.
> 
> Did I miss anything ? Its all about Mudi



He is known to do this.


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## Srinivas

Tshering22 said:


> He doesn't want to risk IAF's depleting numbers. HAL will be hammered now behind closed doors for not having the standards required to make and maintain Rafale.
> 
> This break up seems to be the only sensible option if France reduced per unit price of the jet.



I think the deal is for 200 Fighter jets.

Since AMCA will take another 8 to 10 years, we need Rafale.

Buying 40 and manufacturing the remaining is a good option. HAL is building its capabilities these days.


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## uparyupari

Guynextdoor2 said:


> @Bang Galore do you not belive then that a 126 order for EFT might have made sense? If you want to scrap Rafale because deal had become 'unsalvageable' as you said, then why go for 60. Give all to EFT?
> 
> He is known to do this.



Do you really think a 63 year old man who has devoted his entire life to the nation will let his "hate" guide him when it matters ? 

You do not get to be the PM of a nation of 1.2 billion people by letting emotions control you. If a person cannot even control his emotion, how the hell can he control others ? A politician is nothing if not emotionally mature. And Modi is a TOP notch politician.

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## Abingdonboy

uparyupari said:


> IAF is NEVER happy. Its futile trying to make them happy. Best to work for National interest and not worry about IAF "happiness" or DRDO happiness or HAL happiness.


By "happy" I mean the IAF are satisfied that they can meet their goals and fulfil their requirements vis a vis ensuring national security. Let's not forget their sanctioned Sqn strength figure of 42 was not pulled out of thin air but was sanctioned by the GOVERNMENT so the IAF is merely working to the force levels the politicians has approved. 60 Rafales won't even make that significant of a dent in the Sqn numbers shortfall.

I really dislike when politicians say to the military (in any nation) "make do with what you have" or start dictating to them what is best for them meeting their obligations- it never works out. I'm not saying this is what has happened here- far from it, but this seems to be what you are implying.



uparyupari said:


> Dig a bit about our history of Mirage 2000 vs Mig 29 and our national confusion regarding what to buy and what to build. It is very similar to Rafale vs Pak Fa story.



I'm not too sure about this mate, yes a MiG-29 vs Mirage 2000 and Rafale vs PAK-FA/FGFA are both Franch vs Russian scenarios but I don't know if there is any link between the two situations, in fact I don't even see the Rafalr and PAK-FA/FGFA as being in anyway direct competitors for budget or attention in the IAF's eyes- they are planning for BOTH the induction of one does not come at the cost of the other. This is where the direct comparison from the past ends then because whilst the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 where of the same generation and had similar benefits and costs the same cannot be said for the Rafale/FGFA debate (not that there is any such debate going on anywhere outside of these forums).

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## PARIKRAMA

*India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France - Le Monde*
(Reuters) - India is negotiating to buy 63 Rafale fighter jets made in France for 7.2 billion euros ($7.65 billion) with a view to reaching a deal during the Indian prime minister's visit to Paris starting on Friday, French newspaper Le Monde reported.

"The discussions went on through the night and were still going on this morning," Le Monde quoted a source close to the matter as saying.

"The idea is to announce the contract during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris on Friday or Saturday," the source added.

Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA), which builds the Rafale, was not immediately available for comment.

India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France - Le Monde| Reuters

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## Abingdonboy

whoa whoa whoa, things are starting to make sense:




> _*Concretely, the Indian government would activate an option contained in the main deal for 126 devices, Dassault granted in 2012. It provides for the purchase "off the shelf" of 63 additional Rafale, made in France and not in India as provided in the main contract. So, New Delhi would would quickly dispose of the aircraft without waiting for the end of negotiations on the initial contract.*_
> 
> _The Rafale 'make in India ", with 108 aircraft would have an additional cost of € 8 billion, bringing the total contract of 12 to 20 billion euros._



L’Inde veut acheter au plus vite une soixantaine de Rafale


This means the MMRCA is still on, the 126 order is under negotiations BUT the follow-on units of 63 are being delivered upfront off the shelf and not at the back-end of production in India. This would make a hell of a lot of sense and ticks all the boxes- fast induction, address depleting Sqn strength, bring ToT, bring industrial benefits etc etc

IF Modi can pull this off and IF this is really what the GoI/MoD are planning I will not only be shocked by their forward thinking and pragmatism but in awe of the fact they sorted this entire mess out and did the seemingly impossible- came up with a deal that suits everyone.

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## Bang Galore

Guynextdoor2 said:


> @Bang Galore do you not belive then that a 126 order for EFT might have made sense? If you want to scrap Rafale because deal had become 'unsalvageable' as you said, then why go for 60. Give all to EFT?
> .



Yes & no. L2 couldn't have been considered & to eject the French & completely snubbing them would have had some consequences. Not like the cost of EF would have been too very different from Rafale. This deal was always going to be tough when the 2 costliest were shortlisted. Had it been a 3 way race with SH thrown in, it would have changed the equation forcing EF consortium & Dassault to drop their prices.

This was a mess, especially in the altered economic conditions of the last 2 years. These super expensive planes were never a realistic option, no matter how much the IAF was going crazy about them. I have always thought that the deal was crazy in being open ended about the costs and we are finally seeing_ (if true)_ the last act being played out in this charade.

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## That Guy

anant_s said:


> Do you believe J-10B might interest policy makers?


Perhaps, maybe Pakistan may look for other options, if financing allows it. Pakistan only needs about 35-40 initial advanced fighters to match the Rafales, simply as a deterrent.

If the gov and military feel that they must find an answer quickly, than the j-10 is going to be revisited, but if they feel they have time, they may visit other options.

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## uparyupari

PARIKRAMA said:


> *India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France - Le Monde*
> (Reuters) - India is negotiating to buy 63 Rafale fighter jets made in France for 7.2 billion euros ($7.65 billion) with a view to reaching a deal during the Indian prime minister's visit to Paris starting on Friday, French newspaper Le Monde reported.
> 
> "The discussions went on through the night and were still going on this morning," Le Monde quoted a source close to the matter as saying.
> 
> "The idea is to announce the contract during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris on Friday or Saturday," the source added.
> 
> Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA), which builds the Rafale, was not immediately available for comment.
> 
> India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France - Le Monde| Reuters



40,000 to 45,000 Crores was converted to 45,000 Crores and then that was translated to 7.2 billion $, and now the 7.2 billion $ has mutated to 7.2 billion Euros  

Amazing how the media operates and how things get changed with each telling


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*India wants to buy it as soon sixty Rafale*
The Monde.fr | 10.04.2015 at 10:05 • Updated 10.04.2015 at 10:46 | By Cédric Pietralunga , Dominique Gallois and Julien Bouissou (New Delhi, correspondence)


Reportedly, negotiations between the French and Indian governments were underway Friday morning April 10, for the purchase of three squadrons of Rafale, 63 planes, for $ 7.2 billion.

_"The discussions lasted all night, they continued this morning_ , provides a close case. _The idea is to be able to announce this contract during the visit to Paris of Narendra Modi, the Indian Prime Minister, Friday or Saturday. »_

If the number of fighters finally ordered was not yet fully arrested Friday morning, the principle of this contract would be granted.

*"Contract of the Century"*
*Specifically, the Indian government would play an option contained in the "Contract of the Century" 126 devices, Dassault granted in 2012. It provides for the purchase "off the shelf" of 63 additional Rafale, made in France and not India as provided in the main contract.*

New Delhi, this would quickly dispose of devices without waiting for the end of negotiations on the initial contract. The unit cost of a Rafale produced in India has indeed proved superior to that produced in France, due to the need to establish a comprehensive network of contractors, non-existent there, and train teams.

*The Rafale "Made in India", 108 copies are provided on the 126 contract, would have an additional cost of € 8 billion, bringing the total contract of 12 to 20 billion euros.*

The Indian Air Force has, meanwhile, been constantly alerting the government about the aging of its squadrons, while the country faces frozen conflicts at its borders with Pakistan and China. It plans to withdraw from circulation four MiG-21 squadrons, five squadrons of MiG-27 / UPG, and a squadron of MIG 21 bis 2017, losing ten squadrons in just one year.

*According to the Indian press, the purchase of 63 Rafale could be accompanied by the abandonment of the main contract. This information was not confirmed in Paris, Friday morning.*


L’Inde veut acheter au plus vite une soixantaine de Rafale


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## Guynextdoor2

Due, $6B worth of money for preveting 'snub' ? These are countries and the French would have understood that we're trying to get the best out of out public money. Now we're saddled with a strange kind of deal without any benefits and overall higher costs.



PARIKRAMA said:


> *India wants to buy it as soon sixty Rafale*
> The Monde.fr | 10.04.2015 at 10:05 • Updated 10.04.2015 at 10:46 | By Cédric Pietralunga , Dominique Gallois and Julien Bouissou (New Delhi, correspondence)
> 
> 
> Reportedly, negotiations between the French and Indian governments were underway Friday morning April 10, for the purchase of three squadrons of Rafale, 63 planes, for $ 7.2 billion.
> 
> _"The discussions lasted all night, they continued this morning_ , provides a close case. _The idea is to be able to announce this contract during the visit to Paris of Narendra Modi, the Indian Prime Minister, Friday or Saturday. »_
> 
> If the number of fighters finally ordered was not yet fully arrested Friday morning, the principle of this contract would be granted.
> 
> *"Contract of the Century"*
> *Specifically, the Indian government would play an option contained in the "Contract of the Century" 126 devices, Dassault granted in 2012. It provides for the purchase "off the shelf" of 63 additional Rafale, made in France and not India as provided in the main contract.*
> 
> New Delhi, this would quickly dispose of devices without waiting for the end of negotiations on the initial contract. The unit cost of a Rafale produced in India has indeed proved superior to that produced in France, due to the need to establish a comprehensive network of contractors, non-existent there, and train teams.
> 
> *The Rafale "Made in India", 108 copies are provided on the 126 contract, would have an additional cost of € 8 billion, bringing the total contract of 12 to 20 billion euros.*
> 
> The Indian Air Force has, meanwhile, been constantly alerting the government about the aging of its squadrons, while the country faces frozen conflicts at its borders with Pakistan and China. It plans to withdraw from circulation four MiG-21 squadrons, five squadrons of MiG-27 / UPG, and a squadron of MIG 21 bis 2017, losing ten squadrons in just one year.
> 
> *According to the Indian press, the purchase of 63 Rafale could be accompanied by the abandonment of the main contract. This information was not confirmed in Paris, Friday morning.*
> 
> 
> L’Inde veut acheter au plus vite une soixantaine de Rafale



So what does this mean- 126+ 63? I'm actually ok with that. These are great jets- lots made in the country and good to have in bigger nos. as the maintainence is common.

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## Stephen Cohen

The ORIGINAL DEAL had the provision of *126 PLUS 63 planes as options *

The deal size is getting BIGGER

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## uparyupari

I am speechless. What is going on ?


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## ptltejas

Stephen Cohen said:


> The ORIGINAL DEAL had the provision of *126 PLUS 63 planes as options *
> 
> The deal size is getting BIGGER


Not think so, we do not need numbers but quality, i think so, cause, su-30 mki 270, then Pak-fa and FGFA, LCA mk-1 and mk-2 will be their so how many fighters we need? perhaps it will be not 126 + 63 when the decision on 126 is pending.


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## PARIKRAMA

it is imperatively clear
Step 1: MMRCA had 126+63 follow on Off the shelf clause
Step 2: Buy 63 off the shelf now
STep 3: Continue negotiations for MMRCA 126 (18 flyaway +108 HAL produced ones)

Step 4:Ensure French government commits to Make In India properly by pushing Dassault and enhancing the capability of HAL in India and Hollande in France who with this contract will emerge more powerful within French politics. Thus this breakthrough is win win for all

Step 5: End for all end speculations of India buying everything from Eurofighter to Su35Stealth or Su 34 or Mig 35

Step 6: No more crying for IAF squadron falling numbers

Step 7: Make a clear pathway for LCA Mk2 and AMCA and status of FGFA (if its happening)

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## Sine Nomine

Archie said:


> You cant even afford Sour grapes
> 
> Keep Flying the Super Duper JF17 with Alien spec DSI


At least we are Flying this sour grape,75 are flying and 25 will be produced this year so of course we don't need sweet grapes like MMRCA and LCA years of work and still not a full operation squadron,you should worry about your own sweet grapes we are happy with our sour garpes.


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## Stephen Cohen

France HAS already conveyed to India that the best way to REDUCE COSTS 
is to make MORE planes in France

And that is also the case if we want the planes *ASAP *

So both cost factors and time factors are at work here

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## uparyupari

Here is a news from 26July, 2011

Biggest deal: IAF may buy 189 jets for $20bn

The “mother” could well become the “granny” of all defence deals in the years ahead. India is likely to go in for another* 63 fighters after the delivery of the first 126 *MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) if the “timelines” for its other fighter development projects are not met, say top defence officials. 

This would be the biggest overhaul of any air force in the world in such a short period. When the MMRCA selection process was initiated by the defence ministry (MoD) in mid-2007, the overall project cost was pegged at Rs 42,000 crore, or $10.4 billion, for 126 fighters. But it will zoom beyond $20 billion if India decides to opt for 189 jets since inflation is also being factored in. Even with 126 jets, this is the biggest such fighter contract in the world as of now. 

This comes as the MoD is set to open commercial bids of the two jets left in the MMRCA fray—French Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon—“in a week or two”. 

Eurofighter Typhoon is backed by the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy. The MoD has rejected “any scope for comeback” by the other four jets, including the American F/A-18s and F-16s, ejected out of the MMRCA race in April on technical grounds. “We are looking for only 126 fighters. The first 18 will come from abroad, while the rest 108 will be made by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd after transfer of technology from end-2016 or early-2017,” said a top MoD official. 

India likely to seek another 63 fighters after delivery of the first 126 

Will seek these jets if Tejas LCA and Indo-Russian stealth FGFA deadlines not met

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## Koovie

flamer84 said:


> What happens in Paris,stays in Paris.



LOL!


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## NKVD

قناص said:


> At least we are Flying this sour grape,75 are flying and 25 will be produced this year so of course


where do you adding up numbers uptill now only 64 jf-17 are produced that to in 8 years frame where to do you get 25 in year figure from

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## Pichkari

ye kya ho raha hai bhai!!!


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## Koovie

This would be a terrible decision... what about ToT? 50% offset? 

A huge part of this deal was to improve OUR aviation industry by manufacturing them in India


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## Guynextdoor2

If it is 128 + 63, I think it's a very good option to look at. But if it's only 63, then that's an incredibly lame deal.

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## Abingdonboy

uparyupari said:


> Will seek these jets if Tejas LCA and Indo-Russian stealth FGFA deadlines not met


It is worth noting this has come be- FGFA is nowhere in sight and whilst the LCA is now close to induction deadlines on this front have still been pushed back. 

If Modi is serious about India being global/regional player it needs to have a military to back this up and 126-200 Rafales would almost change the fortunes of the IAF in one stroke -taking their weakest link (MiGs) to their biggest strength (Rafales).



Guynextdoor2 said:


> If it is 128 + 63, I think it's a very good option to look at. But if it's only 63, then that's an incredibly lame deal.


Absolutely agree, 63 wouldn't be worth it.



Koovie said:


> This would be a terrible decision... what about ToT? 50% offset?
> 
> A huge part of this deal was to improve OUR aviation industry by manufacturing them in India


See posts 216 and 224 bro, things are becoming clearer...

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## ashok321



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## SuperSubrayan

The_Sidewinder said:


> For what I am observing there should be a way out of the whole saga like following the same procedure which have been followed in case of SUKHOI 30 MKI .






The_Sidewinder said:


> First Modi will sign the contract for off the selve procurement of 60 Rafales ( 3 squadron )., then go for 124 MMRCA after solving most issues.
> First of all it will helf to quickly replenish our depleting squadron strength. If MMRCA contract is signed within next 6 months, by the time HAL roles out first batch of rafales from its own production line by 2018-19, IAF will already induct 60 new toys to play with.
> Thus keeps IAF happy & also HAL can rip benefits from long lasting booring MMRCA saga in form of Major TOT. Just a thought.



Exactly mate! Don't forget we need rafale M for ins vishal . We don't want f18 of any kind . Our jealous IAf want to have Rafale before IN does. 

@narendramodi's address at @UNESCO, today 3PM. Watch live on YuvaiTV - The Internet TV initiative from BJP plz RT @YuvaiTV #modiinfrance सुमंत (Sumant) on Twitter: "@narendramodi's address at @UNESCO, today 3PM. Watch live on http://t.co/b48QrQZkuB. plz RT @YuvaiTV #modiinfrance http://t.co/PAWx77CvFY"

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## Manindra

Here goes Modi's make in India rant


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## uparyupari

Abingdonboy said:


> It is worth noting this has come be- FGFA is nowhere in sight and whilst the LCA is now close to induction deadlines on this front have still been pushed back.



That thought occurred to me while I read that article. 

If this deal goes though, I am going to guess PAK FA is not what the IAF expects it to be. LCA is our own baby, so we need to induct it in larger numbers. Ready or not.


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## SuperSubrayan

Abingdonboy said:


> It is worth noting this has come be- FGFA is nowhere in sight and whilst the LCA is now close to induction deadlines on this front have still been pushed back.
> 
> If Modi is serious about India being global/regional player it needs to have a military to back this up and 126-200 Rafales would almost change the fortunes of the IAF in one stroke -taking their weakest link (MiGs) to their biggest strength (Rafales).
> 
> 
> Absolutely agree, 63 wouldn't be worth it.
> 
> 
> See posts 216 and 224 bro, things are becoming clearer...




Great News is that by 2017 we will get all new 60 Rafales  

Frak ToT . First we need jets .


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## The_Sidewinder

SuperSubrayan said:


> Exactly mate! Don't forget we need rafale M for ins vishal . We don't want f18 of any kind . Our jealous IAf want to have Rafale before IN does.
> 
> @narendramodi's address at @UNESCO, today 3PM. Watch live on YuvaiTV - The Internet TV initiative from BJP plz RT @YuvaiTV #modiinfrance सुमंत (Sumant) on Twitter: "@narendramodi's address at @UNESCO, today 3PM. Watch live on http://t.co/b48QrQZkuB. plz RT @YuvaiTV #modiinfrance http://t.co/PAWx77CvFY"




Even I dont want those super hornet when we can access Rafales. About the " Jealous IAF" part, I certainly agree.

* Rafale all the way * Waiting for the big announcement.

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## NKVD

Manindra said:


> Here goes Modi's make in India rant


its no possible in any how according to current RFP. he made the correct choice best he could do what he got in hereditary from UPA.


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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> If Modi is serious about India being global/regional player it needs to have a military to back this up and 126-200 Rafales would almost change the fortunes of the IAF in one stroke -taking their weakest link (MiGs) to their biggest strength (Rafales).



This Sir is what i had been hoping for a long time. 108 from HAL is enough for TOT purposes. 18+63 flyaway means 4.5 squadrons.. That is also very good as HAL would definitely take time to ramp up production of Rafale in India as its first time hiccups would always incurred.

I only hope sanity prevails and not make a mockery of a splendid opportunity to turn around IAF in a single decisive decision

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## Manindra

NKVD said:


> its no possible in any how according to current RFP. he made the correct choice best he could do what he got in hereditary from UPA


If the same deal done by MMS ?


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## SuperSubrayan

The_Sidewinder said:


> Even I dont want those super hornet when we can access Rafales. About the " Jealous IAF" part, I certainly agree.
> 
> * Rafale all the way * Waiting for the big announcement.


 IAF always been a jealous cry baby. 

And as per CNN We are pushing to get all 60 by 2017 to replace Mig21

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## PARIKRAMA

Manindra said:


> If the same deal done by MMS ?



Here the polictial party does not matter. What matters is a concrete decision taking into account the value of time, money and the strategic vision hich MMRCA was first started.


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## NKVD

Manindra said:


> If the same deal done by MMS ?


If MMs had done that it might have saved much time but he didn't.


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## Manindra

NKVD said:


> If MMs had done that it might have saved much time but he didn't.


Some time I am amused people with these kind of blind following.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Here the polictial party does not matter. What matters is a concrete decision taking into account the value of time, money and the strategic vision hich MMRCA was first started.


Why not then F-18 SH with probably 30% cheaper than Rafale ?


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## PARIKRAMA

SuperSubrayan said:


> IAF always been a jealous cry baby.
> 
> And as per CNN We are pushing to get all 60 by 2017 to replace Mig21




2017 is a very aggressive time frame.. Even if Dassault ramps up production it will be a bit difficult as Egyptian rafales are also there. 
Unless 2.5 Rafales per month production rate is applied. Then say in 30 months uptill dec 2017 we can get a total production of 75 jets which can off course accomodate India's timeline too of 63 jets by 2017


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## Abingdonboy

uparyupari said:


> That thought occurred to me while I read that article.
> 
> If this deal goes though, I am going to guess PAK FA is not what the IAF expects it to be. LCA is our own baby, so we need to induct it in larger numbers. Ready or not.


If this deals goes through the need for the FGFA remains (for the long term) however it buys the IAF more time to allow the FGFA's development to work at its own pace and buys the IAF some breathing space. As such it would be an incredibly shrewd decision and would turn around the IAF's outlook from negative to positive almost overnight.

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## Manindra

PARIKRAMA said:


> Here the polictial party does not matter. What matters is a concrete decision taking into account the value of time, money and the strategic vision hich MMRCA was first started.


Why not then F-18 SH with probably 30% cheaper than Rafale ?


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> This Sir is what i had been hoping for a long time. 108 from HAL is enough for TOT purposes. 18+63 flyaway means 4.5 squadrons.. That is also very good as HAL would definitely take time to ramp up production of Rafale in India as its first time hiccups would always incurred.
> 
> I only hope sanity prevails and not make a mockery of a splendid opportunity to turn around IAF in a single decisive decision


It would be by far the most ideal scenario, let's not get ahead of ourselves though- this is really too good to be true

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## uparyupari

Abingdonboy said:


> If this deals goes through the need for the FGFA remains (for the long term) however it buys the IAF more time to allow the FGFA's development to work at its own pace and buys the IAF some breathing space. As such it would be an incredibly shrewd decision and would turn around the IAF's outlook from negative to positive almost overnight.



Its a lot of money to flow out of India, so can't say I am thrilled to see that happen. 

But if it does happen, I hope Modi like a good Baniya, got the best deal for us, including significant ToT.


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## PARIKRAMA

Manindra said:


> Why not then F-18 SH with probably 30% cheaper than Rafale ?



F18 did not meet most of the tech parameters under MMRCA when field evaluated . If i remember correctly it did not pass the cold tests at all. The US planes never designed to operate in high altitudes with cold weather conditions. I am sure Canada would replace F18s definitely with something else as they incurred lots of difficulty in operating F18s


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## Abingdonboy

SuperSubrayan said:


> Great News is that by 2017 we will get all new 60 Rafales


2017 is too optimistic but by 2019/20 the IAF could have 63 Rafales (actually more because by 2019 the HAL production line would be up and running if the 108 made in India Rafales is sill on) as opposed to about 30 Rafales that would be in service by the same time was the MMRCA deal being pursued in its current format- this is a HUGE deal. 

189 Rafales in service by 2024/5 with full ToT and all relevant industrial benefits is not something to be laughed at, if this is really on the table the GoI need to grab it with both hands and not let go.

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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> If this deals goes through the need for the FGFA remains (for the long term) however it buys the IAF more time to allow the FGFA's development to work at its own pace and buys the IAF some breathing space. As such it would be an incredibly shrewd decision and would turn around the IAF's outlook from negative to positive almost overnight.



You forget one factor. Most people don't realize that the early Sukhoi batches are actually gonna be due for retirement within the next decade. So the best case scenario- as the FGFA batches come in, the Su 30 we inducted in mid 1990s will be 25 years old and will be replaced. So the way to look at this might be- Jaguars, Mirage, Mig 29s which are even older are the prime replacement options for Rafale. It will not be obvious for some time since these won't be retired imedeately and the older Bisons will go out first. But eventually- LCA Mk-1 Mk2 will play role of Bisons, Rafale of the medium class and FGFA will directly replace the depleting Sukhoi fleet.

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## Abingdonboy

uparyupari said:


> Its a lot of money to flow out of India, so can't say I am thrilled to see that happen.
> 
> But if it does happen, I hope Modi like a good Baniya, got the best deal for us, including significant ToT.


In the long term it really isn't that much money especially not for a nation like India and the benefits this money will bring are huge.

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## NKVD

Manindra said:


> Some time I am amused people with these kind of blind following


So what in your Mind he should do you will Probably Say Scrap MMRCa well its will curtailed the Reliability of india as customer. whatever was flawed in MMrCA was due to inefficient RFP clauses that dragged this deal beyond time limit.


Manindra said:


> Why not then F-18 SH with probably 30% cheaper than Rafale


ohhh IAF still not have balls to play in the Hands of US. with strings attached


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## anant_s

Abingdonboy said:


> This would be my guess- 60 off the shelf Rafales whilst the larger production of Rafales inside India was being worked out and set up (I was always in favour of more Rafales off the shelf anyway) so I don't see this deal being confined to 60 units for the IAF alone as is being reported by some- that makes ZERO sense.


I'm hazarding a guess but looks like Rafale M might be on Navy's menu. In larger picture considering the capability profile of Rafale, it has a potential to cover up for lot of planes in India's fleet due for retirement (MiG 27, Jaguar, even Mirage 2000 etc) and act as backup to AMCA delays. So if military planners are convinced, we might want a much larger fleet of Rafales (in various variants) in foreseeable future and thus this possibly the first of several batch of Rafale that might don Indian colors.

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## migflug

Eager to hear officailly. Hope 63 +126. Will give iaf needed strength and time for development of fgfa amca without worrying abt dwindlling sqadrons. We r going to have more than 200 of these birds if navy buys it too .More than FRANCE


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## Manindra

PARIKRAMA said:


> F18 did not meet most of the tech parameters under MMRCA when field evaluated . If i remember correctly it did not pass the cold tests at all. The US planes never designed to operate in high altitudes with cold weather conditions. I am sure Canada would replace F18s definitely with something else as they incurred lots of difficulty in operating F18s


None of the Jet design for High Attitude , There made special tweak for this. For your Information Tejas MK1 engine uses F-18 engine which works on high attitude & Tejas MK2 engine would use Super Hornet engine which would also operate in high attitude.
US does not ready to provide complete TOT so these propaganda to save face.


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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> You forget one factor. Most people don't realize that the early Sukhoi batches are actually gonna be due for retirement within the next decade. So the best case scenario- as the FGFA batches come in, the Su 30 we inducted in mid 1990s will be 25 years old and will be replaced. So the way to look at this might be- Jaguars, Mirage, Mig 29s which are even older are the prime replacement options for Rafale. It will not be obvious for some time since these won't be retired imedeately and the older Bisons will go out first. But eventually- LCA Mk-1 Mk2 will play role of Bisons, Rafale of the medium class and FGFA will directly replace the depleting Sukhoi fleet.


Indeed, this is the way I see it going and then by 2027/30 when the DARIN III Jaguars are a bit long in the tooth the AMCA can replace them. 


This is becoming all too logical though, very un-Indian !!!

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## gslv

SuperSubrayan said:


> Great News is that by 2017 we will get all new 60 Rafales
> 
> Frak ToT . First we need jets .


Even if we get 60 planes by 2017, I think pilots wouldn't be trained for that. Does anyone know how many months it takes a pilot to get trained in a specific plane @Abingdonboy??

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## uparyupari

anant_s said:


> I'm hazarding a guess but looks like Rafale M might be on Navy's menu. In larger picture considering the capability profile of Rafale, it has a potential to cover up for lot of planes in India's fleet due for retirement (MiG 27, Jaguar, even Mirage 2000 etc) and act as backup to AMCA delays. So if military planners are convinced, we might want a much larger fleet of Rafales (in various variants) in foreseeable future and thus this possibly the first of several batch of Rafale that might don Indian colors.



I am certain this will also factor in as a Plan B for the Naval AMCA.

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## SuperSubrayan

Abngdonboy said:


> 2017 is too optimistic but by 2019/20 the IAF could have 63 Rafales (actually more because by 2019 the HAL production line would be up and running if the 108 made in India Rafales is sill on) as opposed to about 30 Rafales that would be in service by the same time was the MMRCA deal being pursued in its current format- this is a HUGE deal.
> 
> 189 Rafales in service by 2024/5 with full ToT and all relevant industrial benefits is not something to be laughed at, if this is really on the table the GoI need to grab it with both hands and not let go.



It's is .But as per source our PM looking to break or skip red tapes in getting 60-63 rafale by 2017. We gift french with 60 rafale orders so we expect them to take care of our immediate problems. If it's true then it can't get better do IAF . Asia's most advanced 4th fighter will be with India


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## Abingdonboy

gslv said:


> Even if we get 60 planes by 2017, I think pilots wouldn't be trained before that. Does anyone know how many months it takes a pilot to get trained in a specific plane @Abingdonboy??


Brother training will never be a major holdup in these deals! Between France and India the IAF will get the pilots trained up in time.

Conversion training and certification can happen in the span of a few months as the pilots won't be recruited specifically to fly on the Rafale but will already be within the IAF and qualified on single seat fighters.

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## Manindra

NKVD said:


> ohhh IAF still not have balls to play in the Hands of US. with strings attached



Same IAF have ball to use US frontline Transporter & special mission capable aircrafts, IN main Sub hunters are P-8Is , we ready to surrender our future $3 billion dollor ACC for the sake of EMALS & probably with US F-35C
Our Frontline frigate & under construction ACC use US GT engine.
These are just lame excuses.


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## SuperSubrayan

gslv said:


> Even if we get 60 planes by 2017, I think pilots wouldn't be trained for that. Does anyone know how many months it takes a pilot to get trained in a specific plane @Abingdonboy??


Good point . But IAF and Dasault will take care of it . I guess .


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## deckingraj

gslv said:


> Even if we get 60 planes by 2017, I think pilots wouldn't be trained for that. Does anyone know how many months it takes a pilot to get trained in a specific plane ??


Honing Pilot skills, creating and practicing strategies, familiarity with the machine, weapon payloads, ground operations etc etc...3-4 years at a minimum...


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## anant_s

uparyupari said:


> Naval AMCA



Not aware of that mate, but it sure can cover for N-LCA and considering IAC 2 and beyond ACs featuring CATOBAR (Steam or EMALS), such a ship based fighter in your inventory could be more than a handful.


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## gslv

deckingraj said:


> Honing Pilot skills, creating and practicing strategies, familiarity with the machine, weapon payloads, ground operations etc etc...3-4 years at a minimum...


Yeah operationality of Rafale will take at least 5 years, I was just asking pilot training, rest can follow.


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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, this is the way I see it going and then by 2027/30 when the DARIN III Jaguars are a bit long in the tooth the AMCA can replace them.
> 
> 
> This is becoming all too logical though, very un-Indian !!!



So let's just wait and see where we screw up

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## hkdas

SrNair said:


> This is business dude.Suppliers will do anything to increase their profit.It is our responsibility to provide zero loopholes in our agreement.And our govt machinery failed in that thing.


ToT was in the orginal RFP.


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## Abingdonboy

SuperSubrayan said:


> It's is .But as per source our PM looking to break or skip red tapes in getting 60-63 rafale by 2017. We gift french with 60 rafale orders so we expect them to take care of our immediate problems. If it's true then it can't get better do IAF . Asia's most advanced 4th fighter will be with India


It would be ideal but I don't see how it can be done in terms of production- 60 Rafales by 2017 (and consider we are already 4 months into 2015) would require signing the Rafale deal within weeks AND Dassualt producing 30 Rafales a year purely for the IAF. Considering Dassualt have been producing 11 Rafales a year (admittedly this is an artificially low rate with the intention to keep the Rafale production line open) and now have to deliver to the FraF, FrN and Egyptians I just don't see the IAF getting anywhere near 60 Rafales by 2017 BUT I do see them getting 60 by 2019/20.

Unless Dassualt have made an outrageously attractive offer to the GoI that will ensure 60 Rafales by 2017.

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## gslv

Abingdonboy said:


> Brother training will never be a major holdup in these deals! Between France and India the IAF will get the pilots trained up in time.
> 
> Conversion training and certification can happen in the span of a few months as the pilots won't be recruited specifically to fly on the Rafale but will already be within the IAF and qualified on single seat fighters.


So mig to Rafale mostly that is one single seater to another. Hmm.


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## Erroroverload

I think PAKISTAN will now should go for J10.


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## SuperSubrayan

Abingdonboy said:


> Brother training will never be a major holdup in these deals! Between France and India the IAF will get the pilots trained up in time.
> 
> Conversion training and certification can happen in the span of a few months as the pilots won't be recruited specifically to fly on the Rafale but will already be within the IAF and qualified on single seat fighters.


30 each year as per 2017 deadline. So 1 year from now will be good time frame for training in france and logistics support in India . 

Does French has 30 per year supply line ? Or they will give us their used one in service till we get all 60 ?


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## anant_s

Abingdonboy said:


> IF Modi can pull this off and IF this is really what the GoI/MoD are planning I will not only be shocked by their forward thinking and pragmatism but in awe of the fact they sorted this entire mess out and did the seemingly impossible- came up with a deal that suits everyone


My vote and tax money, strangely both seem to be working

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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> It would be ideal but I don't see how it can be done in terms of production- 60 Rafales by 2017 (and consider we are already 4 months into 2015) would require signing the Rafale deal within weeks AND Dassualt producing 30 Rafales a year purely for the IAF. Considering Dassualt have been producing 11 Rafales a year (admittedly this is an artificially low rate with the intention to keep the Rafale production line open) and now have to deliver to the FraF, FrN and Egyptians I just don't see the IAF getting anywhere near 60 Rafales by 2017 BUT I do see them getting 60 by 2019/20.
> 
> Unless Dassualt have made an outrageously attractive offer to the GoI that will ensure 60 Rafales by 2017.




I re-read the first post and think we might be wrong. This might be just a 63 jet deal basis this statement.

The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.

@Abingdonboy
The above statement smacks of 'half the money for half the jets


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## PARIKRAMA

SuperSubrayan said:


> 30 each year as per 2017 deadline. So 1 year from now will be good time frame for training in france and logistics support in India .
> 
> Does French has 30 per year supply line ? Or they will give us their used one in service till we get all 60 ?




Dassault indicated it could ramp production up from one per month to 2.5 per month in the face of export orders.
France’s Rafale: UAE Deal Back on Boards

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## anant_s

Guynextdoor2 said:


> You forget one factor. Most people don't realize that the early Sukhoi batches are actually gonna be due for retirement within the next decade. So the best case scenario- as the FGFA batches come in, the Su 30 we inducted in mid 1990s will be 25 years old and will be replaced. So the way to look at this might be- Jaguars, Mirage, Mig 29s which are even older are the prime replacement options for Rafale. It will not be obvious for some time since these won't be retired imedeately and the older Bisons will go out first. But eventually- LCA Mk-1 Mk2 will play role of Bisons, Rafale of the medium class and FGFA will directly replace the depleting Sukhoi fleet.


I've a question here. 
Consider hypothetically that by 2025, we replace all MiGs (other than MiG 29s), Mirage 2000s and Jaguar and replace them all with Rafale, FGFA and LCA Mk 2, with MKI upgrades and AMCA in induction complimented by a large fleet of MAR and AWACS, do we still need 42 squadrons as projected now, considering there is a huge capability jump involved here.

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## micky

SuperSubrayan said:


> Breaking news : PM to cut throu Red tapes . Airforce requirements given highest priority . And purchase of Rafale on the table tonight during meeting with Hollande


i love you man........... you are fantastic........... you are real bharathiey

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## SuperSubrayan

Abingdonboy said:


> It would be ideal but I don't see how it can be done in terms of production- 60 Rafales by 2017 (and consider we are already 4 months into 2015) would require signing the Rafale deal within weeks AND Dassualt producing 30 Rafales a year purely for the IAF. Considering Dassualt have been producing 11 Rafales a year (admittedly this is an artificially low rate with the intention to keep the Rafale production line open) and now have to deliver to the FraF, FrN and Egyptians I just don't see the IAF getting anywhere near 60 Rafales by 2017 BUT I do see them getting 60 by 2019/20.
> 
> Unless Dassualt have made an outrageously attractive offer to the GoI that will ensure 60 Rafales by 2017.



There are few possibilities ! 
1) Send their used jets like 1 squadron for training purposes and operational. Like we got 1st batch of Su30 which we later returned back to the Russians for new batch of MKI 

2) Highly doubtful but it's possible for them to Hold on to Egypt offers as its on soft loans . 


3) Or in hope of MMRCA they might have already produced spares sufficient enough to produce large numbers in short notice. As french were very desperate lately to sell some rafale enough with their own money as Soft loans.


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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I re-read the first post and think we might be wrong. This might be a 63 jet deal basis this statement.
> 
> The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.
> 
> @Abingdonboy
> The above statement smacks of 'half the money for half the jets


This article directly contradicts the points made by Le Monde (a far more credible outlet IMHO) so I wouldn't place too much weight behind it. It seems they have heard the "63 jets bought off the shelf from France", have not bothered to understand where that figure has come from (the exact number contained within the original MMRCA RFP for follow-on units) and jumped to the conclusion this means the end of the MMRCA. Now I've thought about it some more and seen this article from Le Monde I'm not convinced by this Indian media analysis of the whole thing.


----------



## Guynextdoor2

anant_s said:


> I've a question here.
> Consider hypothetically that by 2025, we replace all MiGs (other than MiG 29s), Mirage 2000s and Jaguar and replace them all with Rafale, FGFA and LCA Mk 2, with MKI upgrades and AMCA in induction complimented by a large fleet of MAR and AWACS, do we still need 42 squadrons as projected now, considering there is a huge capability jump involved here.



42 Squadron strength has been declared as optimum by IAF. Plus there will be a 'quantum jump' for our enemies (read China) too. So yes, we will still need numbers.



Abingdonboy said:


> This article directly contradicts the points made by Le Monde (a far more credible outlet IMHO) so I wouldn't place too much weight behind it. It seems they have heard the "63 jets bought off the shelf from France", have not bothered to understand where that figure has come from (the exact number contained within the original MMRCA RFP for follow-on units) and jumped to the conclusion this means the end of the MMRCA. Now I've thought about it some more and seen this article from Le Monde I'm not convinced by this Indian media analysis of the whole thing.



Well I hope you're right. Let's see what they say.

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## gslv

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dassault indicated it could ramp production up from one per month to 2.5 per month in the face of export orders.
> France’s Rafale: UAE Deal Back on Boards


Even then they could hardly give 10-12 a year considering they have also different commitments to Egypt and their own air force.

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## thesolar65

So it will be Right handed drive or Left handed??


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## SuperSubrayan

anant_s said:


> I've a question here.
> Consider hypothetically that by 2025, we replace all MiGs (other than MiG 29s), Mirage 2000s and Jaguar and replace them all with Rafale, FGFA and LCA Mk 2, with MKI upgrades and AMCA in induction complimented by a large fleet of MAR and AWACS, do we still need 42 squadrons as projected now, considering there is a huge capability jump involved here.


Very true . It's like walking on the rope for Modi ji. Bloody congress spoiled our IAF and Under water fleet or all armed forces for that matter. We have no choice but to spend more to fill in the blanks which left vacant for many years now. For a decade. But not to worry bhai . Our leader will take forward this nation. TEJAS Mk2 /MK 1 ( Bad nor good .First we need them in numbers to replace all mig21 ) 

AMCA has to pick up now . As things are moving fast in this field as Engine is more or less conformed . Again Good or bad . Need them in numbers to replace other migs other than 29. 

Now 60 rafale + 50 mirage 2KI will be our insurance for any delay in all the above . But If we succeed in AMCA LCA 2 and these Mirage and Rafale will pay the way to form 42+ squadron's . 

For heavy we have abandon resources at home itself . Super sukoi will be our insurance for delay in FGFA. But I belive since MMRCA cut downed to 60 . We can expect 1 squadron of PAKFA from Russia before FGFA takes shape ... 

Let's not go off topic . But this deal is very important . Our PM must have been advised by all other brains of Strategic planning of India. So trust our PM moves

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## Green Angel

Euro fighter is better choice than Rafale?.


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## The_Sidewinder

anant_s said:


> My vote and tax money, strangely both seem to be working



Feeling is mutual.

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## Abingdonboy

SuperSubrayan said:


> Does French has 30 per year supply line ? Or they will give us their used one in service till we get all 60 ?


I believe they have the capacity to ramp it up to 30 a year

@halloweene @Gabriel92

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## SuperSubrayan

gslv said:


> Even then they could hardly give 10-12 a year considering they have also different commitments to Egypt and their own air force.


But what if they slow down supply for Egypt ? And 2017 is our proposal . So let's wait by 9.30 PM tonight for press meet after both take a Nauv pe Charcha


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## anant_s

SuperSubrayan said:


> Very true . It's like walking on the rope for Modi ji. Bloody congress spoiled our IAF and Under water fleet or all armed forces for that matter. We have no choice but to spend more to fill in the blanks which left vacant for many years now. For a decade. But not to worry bhai . Our leader will take forward this nation. TEJAS Mk2 /MK 1 ( Bad nor good .First we need them in numbers to replace all mig21 )
> 
> AMCA has to pick up now . As things are moving fast in this field as Engine is more or less conformed . Again Good or bad . Need them in numbers to replace other migs other than 29.
> 
> Now 60 rafale + 50 mirage 2KI will be our insurance for any delay in all the above . But If we succeed in AMCA LCA 2 and these Mirage and Rafale will pay the way to form 42+ squadron's .
> 
> For heavy we have abandon resources at home itself . Super sukoi will be our insurance for delay in FGFA. But I belive since MMRCA cut downed to 60 . We can expect 1 squadron of PAKFA from Russia before FGFA takes shape ...
> 
> Let's not go off topic . But this deal is very important . Our PM must have been advised by all other brains of Strategic planning of India. So trust our PM moves



The thing i like most about Modi and his administration is that they are leading by the example. They are not shying away from taking decisions & just shows you if thinking is pragmatic and forward looking, there are solutions available, even in seemingly most messy situation.

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## Abingdonboy

anant_s said:


> I've a question here.
> Consider hypothetically that by 2025, we replace all MiGs (other than MiG 29s), Mirage 2000s and Jaguar and replace them all with Rafale, FGFA and LCA Mk 2, with MKI upgrades and AMCA in induction complimented by a large fleet of MAR and AWACS, do we still need 42 squadrons as projected now, considering there is a huge capability jump involved here.


42 Sqn is the _minimum_ strength the IAF needs to deal with both China and Pakistan to ensure the security of India's skies. This number is going to be increased to 49/50 by 2030 as the PLAAF and PAF grow and the Indian economy takes off.

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## SuperSubrayan

Abingdonboy said:


> I believe they have the capacity to ramp it up to 30 a year
> 
> @halloweene @Gabriel92




Ohhh then if France can help us out from our mess. Or they can supply us with used rafale in some numbers in 2016 and supply new one squadron for others and in 2017 solely to IAF . If it's take 2019 also no problem . It's better than 1st entering into IAF in 2018/19  as per our previous plan . Fingers crossed for provisions in this deal for additional 60 at the same cost or slightly higher . Hope its 62+62  But I know sometimes I get am carried away . all I need is to buy some new toys for our IAF

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## micky

SuperSubrayan said:


> UK dreams came true !!! MMRCA likely be cancelled and New govt to govt agreement to be inked  win win for both of us U and Me to be precise





Manindra said:


> If the same deal done by MMS ?


not at all possible man,,,,,,,, there is a gandhi family in b/w


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## The_Sidewinder

Abingdonboy said:


> 42 Sqn is the _minimum_ strength the IAF needs to deal with both China and Pakistan to ensure the security of India's skies. This number is going to be increased to 49/50 by 2030 as the PLAAF and PAF grow and the Indian economy takes off.



With the thread perception & war attiriation takibg into account I feel.sometimes even 60 squadrons feels bare minimum.

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## SuperSubrayan

thesolar65 said:


> So it will be Right handed drive or Left handed??


We prefer full RIGHT  for Hindustan



micky said:


> not at all possible man,,,,,,,, there is a gandhi family in b/w



They are history .


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## Manindra

micky said:


> not at all possible man,,,,,,,, there is a gandhi family in b/w



I know there are stupid cult who love modi over India

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## The_Sidewinder

SuperSubrayan said:


> Ohhh then if France can help us out from our mess. Or they can supply us with used rafale in some numbers in 2016 and supply new one squadron for others and in 2017 solely to IAF . If it's take 2019 also no problem . It's better than 1st entering into IAF in 2018/19  as per our previous plan . Fingers crossed for provisions in this deal for additional 60 at the same cost or slightly higher . Hope its 62+62  *But I know sometimes I get am carried away . all I need is to buy some new toys for our* IAF



These lines always gives up your identity.


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## Abingdonboy

The_Sidewinder said:


> With the thread perception & war attiriation takibg into account I feel.sometimes even 60 squadrons feels bare minimum.


Too true.

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## SuperSubrayan

The_Sidewinder said:


> These lines always gives up your identity.


 AM NOT AJIT Devil as some may think . Just for the record

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## Mr.Nair

SrNair said:


> This is business dude.Suppliers will do anything to increase their profit.It is our responsibility to provide zero loopholes in our agreement.And our govt machinery failed in that thing.



By making zero loopholes and red tapes, we are playing lives of our pilots by flying aged aircrafts.It is better to seal the deal as soon as possible.Some thing is better than noting.


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## The_Sidewinder

SuperSubrayan said:


> AM NOT AJIT Devil as some may think . Just for the record



    

I would igore you edited at D**** part. :p

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## Mr.Nair

Manindra said:


> I know there are stupid cult who love modi over India



Modi and India go together.


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## longewala

That Guy said:


> Regardless of the massive cut in numbers, it seems Pakistan may end up having to speed up it's procurement of a high tech fighter soon. Even in small numbers, 60 is more than enough of a threat.


The rafale are for china.
With the state the paf is in after the Americans reduced the amount of baksheesh, the mig-29s, m2k, lca mk-1 and a few dozen sukhois are enough.
What matters though is the potential threat from China, and even 60 rafale would be great in that respect.

The Rafales are exceptional strike aircraft, and would be critical over Tibet where their endurance, terrain hugging capability and payload would be excellent supplements for the sukhois. That's why the iaf are buying the, not to use against some joke air force.

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## Abingdonboy

@waz @Oscar please merge the running threads on this topic 
Mother of all BREAKING NEWS on RAFALE!!!! #ModiInFrance | Page 20


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## Manindra

Mr.Nair said:


> Modi and India go together.


I don't think so.
I see it is just blind following like congis do for Pappu or Aaparts for Khujliwal.

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## SuperSubrayan

And as we speak Modi launched international Yoga day website at UNESCO

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## micky

Manindra said:


> I know there are stupid cult who love modi over India


rather than gandhi family famous for mega scams in indian history and all the messssssssssss happened in defense.....

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## SuperSubrayan

The_Sidewinder said:


> I would igore you edited at D**** part. :p



You sounds like real Dovel

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## Mr.Nair

Manindra said:


> I don't think so.
> I see it is just blind following like congis do for Pappu or Aaparts for Khujliwal.



In today's world you can't get best politicians but better.Only a blind will compare modi with Pappu for that matter


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## Bilal587

If I'm not wrong Modi saying " I will get half amount in my pocket and let the rafale come baby "

On the other hand what Pakistan do to tackle their mighty ability ?


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## Manindra

micky said:


> rather than gandhi family famous for mega scams in indian history and all the messssssssssss happened in defense.....


I don't like to remind of defence scam during single NDA term .


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## The_Sidewinder

SuperSubrayan said:


> And as we speak Modi launched international Yoga day website at UNESCO



Congratulations ....


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## Gabriel92

Abingdonboy said:


> I believe they have the capacity to ramp it up to 30 a year
> 
> @halloweene @Gabriel92



Dassault said that they could increase the prduction to 2.5 aircrafts/month.


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## micky

Manindra said:


> I don't think so.
> I see it is just blind following like congis do for Pappu or Aaparts for Khujliwal.


so you dont want to believe pappu , khujiliwal and modi and any of one from india,,,,,,,,,

so can i assume you following kim from north korea who wil lift india...............

common mate,,,,,,, honestly can't you even see a hope from modi?????

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## Manindra

micky said:


> so you dont want to believe pappu , khujiliwal and modi and any of one from india,,,,,,,,,
> 
> so can i assume you following kim from north korea who wil lift india...............
> 
> common mate,,,,,,, honestly can't you even see a hope from modi?????


I don't blindly believe. I support which would be good for India.


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## Mr.Nair

Manindra said:


> I don't blindly believe. I support which would be good for India.



Modi do not have a magic stick, he is working hard to make india a better place.


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## drunken-monke

Manindra said:


> I don't blindly believe. I support which would be good for India.


You may not blindly support someone,, that's appreciable, but you could blindly criticize somebody... Havent you thought of that?? Coin has two sides mate....
Show option to Modi, we would believe you..

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## Manindra

Mr.Nair said:


> Modi do not have a magic stick, he is working hard to make india a better place.



By scraping major industrial ToT deal instead progressing with expensive complete built jet, then what problem with F-18 with $ 70 million a piece instead of more than $ 100 million per Rafale.
Buying obsolete BM-21 Grad MBRLS instead of Pinaka
Scraping talks with Pak then shamelessly resume it & humiliate whole 1.2 billion people.


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## Dr Gupta

Buying direct from France lowers the cost of the unit price of the fighter but what about the Made in India campagin?


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## Manindra

drunken-monke said:


> You may not blindly support someone,, that's appreciable, but you could blindly criticize somebody... Havent you thought of that?? Coin has two sides mate....
> Show option to Modi, we would believe you..


If you want immediate delievery of fighter without ToT or limited then what problem with F-18 SH with $ 70 million a piece?


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## The_Sidewinder

@Chanakya's chant & @Indian Jaat & @halupridol @Jayanta @zootinali @The Huskar

Bhailog time have come it seems. Kuch meetha ho jaye

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## Manindra

Dr Gupta said:


> Buying direct from France lowers the cost of the unit price of the fighter but what about the Made in India campagin?


Modi's shameless rant.

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## Joseph Goebbels

looks like modi is playing some big game have a feeling that this deal is just an eye "candy" for something bigges


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## xyxmt

Like I said in another thread, India will buy Rafeal on current Modi trip. French like English know the desi Psyche, roll out the red carpet, make him feel important and desi gets under pressure...he will buy steel as a Gold.


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## Mr.Nair

Manindra said:


> By scraping major industrial ToT deal instead progressing with expensive complete built jet, then what problem with F-18 with $ 70 million a piece instead of more than $ 100 million per Rafale.
> Buying obsolete BM-21 Grad MBRLS instead of Pinaka
> Scraping talks with Pak then shamelessly resume it & humiliate whole 1.2 billion people.



I also like to have ToT deal, but don't like to fly those aged aircraft by our pilots risking lives because all these delays.Every one know that US can't be a trusted partner nor they might not agree ToT or spare parts issue.Let's hope for the best


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## Dr Gupta

Manindra said:


> If you want immediate delievery of fighter without ToT or limited then what problem with F-18 SH with $ 70 million a piece?




Well the Rafale is a better plane and also it is ITAR free


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## Manindra

Mr.Nair said:


> I also like to have ToT deal, but don't like to fly those aged aircraft by our pilots risking lives because all these delays.Every one know that US can't be a trusted partner nor they might not agree ToT or spare parts issue.Let's hope for the best


Then you are surrendering whole Navy to US . Why?


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## The_Sidewinder

xyxmt said:


> Like I said in another thread, India will buy Rafeal on current Modi trip. French like English know the desi Psyche, roll out the red carpet, make him feel important and desi gets under pressure...he will buy steel as a Gold.



& Just like any other day, you will troll.

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## SRP

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586484811318988801

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## Manindra

Dr Gupta said:


> Well the Rafale is a better plane and also it is ITAR free


Slightly better than F-18 SH does not justify huge difference in price .
Only barrier for F-18 is Tot.


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## xyxmt

The_Sidewinder said:


> & Just like any other day, you will troll.



was there no truth in what I said? you can call anything trolling if you dont like it


----------



## Abingdonboy

Gabriel92 said:


> Dassault said that they could increase the prduction to 2.5 aircrafts/month.


30

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## Dr Gupta

Manindra said:


> Slightly better than F-18 SH does not justify huge difference in price .
> Only barrier for F-18 is Tot.




I would say the Rafale is quite better by far and it is a true omnirole aircraft and is ITAR free which even the EF is not. Plus we already operate the French Mirages so our pilots are familiar and like the bird.


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## Mr.Nair

Manindra said:


> Then you are surrendering whole Navy to US . Why?



I don't think India is hostile to US or as an ally.Your above post itself say that we are not buying F18,so you can assume that we are not surrendered our interest to any one especially in defense.


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## Manindra

Dr Gupta said:


> I would say the Rafale is quite better by far and it is a true omnirole aircraft and is ITAR free which even the EF is not. Plus we already operate the French Mirages so our pilots are familiar and like the bird.


Can you try to figure how much Rafale excel compare to F-18 ?


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## drunken-monke

Manindra said:


> If you want immediate delievery of fighter without ToT or limited then what problem with F-18 SH with $ 70 million a piece?


Operational capability.. 

Its IAF who rejected F18 in favor of Rafale...

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## Manindra

Mr.Nair said:


> I don't think India is a hostile to US or an aly.Your above post itself say that we are not buying F18,so you can assume that we are not surrendered our interest to any one especially in defense.


Then you should not equipped your frontline warships with US engine.



drunken-monke said:


> Operational capability..
> 
> Its IAF who rejected F18 in favor of Rafale...


Which operational capability F-18 lacks.
They does not ready to give full ToT specially AESA radar thats why they got rejected.


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## Abingdonboy

SRP said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586484811318988801


IST or GMT?


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## SRP

Abingdonboy said:


> IST or GMT?



Probably IST time. Not sure though .


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## Abingdonboy

Manindra said:


> They does not ready to give full ToT specially AESA radar thats why they got rejected.


Actually the F-18 was eliminated on the basis of inability to meet the IAF's technical criteria along with the MiG-35, Gripen and F-16IN.

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## AsianLion

Srinivas said:


> "Make in India" should be the prime motto of Modi in France
> .




What a joke is this,'Make in India' should be prime motto in France, eh? France in India or some foreign country.

Make in India should be by Indians themselves, invented indigenous, Indian raw materials, Indian skill.

Indians sure make a complete mockery of 'indigenous,' and 'make in India' slogans...and world laughs whenever an Indian comes up with indigenous, make in India empty words!


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## The_Sidewinder

xyxmt said:


> was there no truth in what I said? you can call anything trolling if you dont like it



its your plain hatred towards indian pm , nothing else.


----------



## Manindra

Abingdonboy said:


> Actually the F-18 was eliminated on the basis of inability to meet the IAF's technical criteria along with the MiG-35, Gripen and F-16IN.


Which Technical Criteria ?


----------



## Abingdonboy

Manindra said:


> Which Technical Criteria ?


As far as the F-18 goes if I remember correctly it was issues with start up during cold-soak tests in Leh.


----------



## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> IST or GMT?



IST

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## Abingdonboy

Bang Galore said:


> IST


Nice, means only a few hours from now

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## halupridol

The_Sidewinder said:


> @Chanakya's chant & @Indian Jaat & @halupridol @Jayanta @zootinali @The Huskar
> 
> Bhailog time have come it seems. Kuch meetha ho jaye


if this is true thn not much to be happy about,,,,bekar ka mmrca drama,,,"make in India",,no TOT,,:-(

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## Stephen Cohen

When is the BOAT RIDE ; at what time


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## Dr Gupta

AsianUnion said:


> What a joke is this,'Make in India' should be prime motto in France, eh? France in India or some foreign country.
> 
> Make in India should be by Indians themselves, invented indigenous, Indian raw materials, Indian skill.
> 
> Indians sure make a complete mockery of 'indigenous,' and 'make in India' slogans...and world laughs whenever an Indian comes up with indigenous, make in India empty words!




dumbass Germany are holding a exhibition on 'make in india' to get german companies to manufacture in India.


----------



## xyxmt

The_Sidewinder said:


> its your plain hatred towards indian pm , nothing else.



no its your short sightedness and nothing more. I dont hate him I dont even know him, for me modi is like you..why would i hate you?


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## drunken-monke

Manindra said:


> Then you should not equipped your frontline warships with US engine.
> 
> Which operational capability F-18 lacks.
> They does not ready to give full ToT specially AESA radar thats why they got rejected.


This would help..
Best Fighter for Canada: Fighter Jet Fight Club: Rafale versus Super Hornet!
Comparing modern Western fighters « Defense Issues


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## The_Sidewinder

Abingdonboy said:


> IST or GMT?


ist most probably

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## Dr Gupta

Hannover Messe 2015


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## Stephen Cohen

The announcement should be BEFORE the boat ride

Otherwise they will say that FRANCE has taken MODI for a ride

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## Dr Gupta

*The campaign aims at promoting India as an Investment destination and to establish India as a manufacturing hub by attracting the global investors to India to make their products in India as the country has a huge potential of workforce, infrastructure, raw material and other facilities. Initially 25 sectors have been identified in which there is wide scope for investment in manufacturing sector.*

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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> Nice, means only a few hours from now




This deal is the craziest.  Few hours away from the announcement & nobody still has a clue on what exactly is happening.

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## Dr Gupta

Bang Galore said:


> This deal is the craziest.  Few hours away from the announcement & nobody still has a clue on what exactly is happening.




Hardcore negotiation and trying to get the price down and the French trying to get as much profit as they can is what is going on right now.

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## Manindra

Abingdonboy said:


> As far as the F-18 goes if I remember correctly it was issues with start up during cold-soak tests in Leh.


Common mate, You know better .
Every engine on that attitute need special tweak to operate in that thin air including Su-30mki, Mirage 2000 or any other.
Those are just lame excuse neither 2 days of work sorted the problem.
How do the old engine of F-18 work on LCA MK1 on that attitude ?
LCA MK2 uses Super Hornet engine hows that works in the Leh ?
Main problem in ToT which restrict the path of F-18


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## Dr Gupta

Manindra said:


> Common mate, You know better .
> Every engine on that attitute need special tweak to operate in that thin air including Su-30mki, Mirage 2000 or any other.
> Those are just lame excuse neither 2 days of work sorted the problem.
> How do the old engine of F-18 work on LCA MK1 on that attitude ?
> LCA MK2 uses Super Hornet engine hows that works in the Leh ?
> Main problem in ToT which restrict the path of F-18




Buddy download that PDF it will give you a better insight


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## Chanakya's_Chant

@Manindra Let's be clear about one thing - US is an unreliable defense suppler in the eyes of the Indian establishment - both Military and Political - and we have many reasons to believe so - France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion.

It was India’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.

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## Mr.Nair

AsianUnion said:


> What a joke is this,'Make in India' should be prime motto in France, eh? France in India or some foreign country.
> 
> Make in India should be by Indians themselves, invented indigenous, Indian raw materials, Indian skill.
> 
> Indians sure make a complete mockery of 'indigenous,' and 'make in India' slogans...and world laughs whenever an Indian comes up with indigenous, make in India empty words!



Don't worry we are moving in a right direction, this is a *Tata Lockheed Martin Aerostructures Ltd 






*
This is a aerospace factory which your country never even dream about....

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## Srinivas

AsianUnion said:


> What a joke is this,'Make in India' should be prime motto in France, eh? France in India or some foreign country.
> 
> Make in India should be by Indians themselves, invented indigenous, Indian raw materials, Indian skill.
> 
> Indians sure make a complete mockery of 'indigenous,' and 'make in India' slogans...and world laughs whenever an Indian comes up with indigenous, make in India empty words!




The world admires !


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## Dr Gupta

F/A-18E/F
Advantages Disadvantages
Best AESA radar in a fourth-generation
aircraft
Excellent sensor fusion and system
integration
Advanced cooperative targeting
and EA capabilities
New advanced weaponry
Remarkable maneuverability
Excellent short fi eld performance
Moderate cost
High political benefits

*
Heavy weight*
Lacks organic IRST
Weaker energy addition compared
to competitors
Constrained technology transfer*


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## Stephen Cohen

I am reminded of few LINES from a Hindi song of the Movie DON

Pal Pal Ek Hulchul
*Every moment there’s some movement / distraction*

Dil Mein Ek Toofaan Hai
*There’s a storm inside my heart
*
Aane Ko Hai, Woh Manzil
*I’m about to reach that destination
*
Jiska Mujhe Armaan Hain
*Which I had desired *


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## Bang Galore

Dr Gupta said:


> Hardcore negotiation and trying to get the price down and the French trying to get as much profit as they can is what is going on right now.



That is the known part, the unknown part is what is it that they are negotiating...... Never seen so much confusion so close to any announcement. Nobody knows whether the correct number of aircrafts being bought are 40 or 60, whether we are paying $4 billion or $7 billion, whether the MMRCA is being written off or merely modified.

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## Sine Nomine

NKVD said:


> where do you adding up numbers uptill now only 64 jf-17 are produced that to in 8 years frame where to do you get 25 in year figure from


25 JF-17 BLOCK II produced ???????
50 until 2011 and up to 25-26 more units until 2015.


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## Joseph Goebbels

as for the so called TOT well its a joke on"patriots" which was care fully crafted by babu's of MOD , HAL and IAF to justify there kickbacks grabings from defnce purchases

no one is going to give his trade secrets just because your a big coustmar for his merchandise

looks like modi sarkar intends to tie the hands of the magician (corrupt officials) so he is taking the bull by its horns


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## Abingdonboy

Manindra said:


> Common mate, You know better .
> Every engine on that attitute need special tweak to operate in that thin air including Su-30mki, Mirage 2000 or any other.
> Those are just lame excuse neither 2 days of work sorted the problem.
> How do the old engine of F-18 work on LCA MK1 on that attitude ?
> LCA MK2 uses Super Hornet engine hows that works in the Leh ?
> Main problem in ToT which restrict the path of F-18


I am not saying the F-18 couldn't be made to operate at those heights and relatively easily (as the DRDO have shown) but the fact is the F-18 Boeing took to Leh were not able to deliver the performance the IAF stipulated and hence they were marked down because of it. It is no good any of the OEMs saying "we can produce a better product given xyz" if that were the case they should have brought that product in the first place! 

The ToT or lack thereof only would have become an issue had the F-18 been "down selected"with the Rafale and EFT. The trails and evaluations were 100% about technical capabilities, the sealed bids were only opened AFTER this down select and the bids of the non-down selected fighters (F-18, Gripen, F-16 and MiG-35) were returned to their OEMs unopened.


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## Dr Gupta

Bang Galore said:


> That is the known part, the unknown part is what is it that they are negotiating...... Never seen so much confusion so close to any announcement. Nobody knows whether the correct number of aircrafts being bought are 40 or 60, whether we are paying $4 billion or $7 billion, whether the MMRCA is being written off or merely modified.




3-4 years ago there was talk of buying 60+ off the shelf so if i was to bet I would say this figure to be right.


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## The_Sidewinder

xyxmt said:


> no its your short sightedness and nothing more. I dont hate him I dont even know him, for me modi is like you..why would i hate you?



*Like I said in another thread, India will
buy Rafeal on current Modi trip. French
like English know the desi Psyche, roll
out the red carpet, make him feel
important and desi gets under
pressure...he will buy steel as a Gold.* isnt this statement itself a naive one. Mode went to French & we all knew from months ago a breakthrough will be reached. Given IAFs depleting numbers & threat perception it was imperetive to reach a conclusion in here. Isnt it short sightedness in your part to ignore these facts & relating the deal to buttering on part of france.

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## Manindra

drunken-monke said:


> This would help..
> Best Fighter for Canada: Fighter Jet Fight Club: Rafale versus Super Hornet!
> Comparing modern Western fighters « Defense Issues


Very shoddy comparison
They compare current F-18 BVRAAM to future Rafale BVRAAM
They ignore F-18 operational AESA which also have edge Rafale's future AESA
Even they trying to compare their guns 
They ignore the price factor of both


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## Abingdonboy

badnam hazza miskin said:


> as for the so called TOT well its a joke on"patriots" which was care fully crafted by babu's of MOD , HAL and IAF to justify there kickbacks grabings from defnce purchases
> 
> no one is going to give his trade secrets just because your a big coustmar for his merchandise
> 
> looks like modi sarkar intends to tie the hands of the magician (corrupt officials) so he is taking the bull by its horns


No, just no.


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## The_Sidewinder

@halupridol
before getting into any forgone conclusions, lets wait for the announcement about the detail specifications of the deal.

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## Manindra

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> @Manindra Let's be clear about one thing - US is an unreliable defense suppler in the eyes of the Indian establishment - both Military and Political - and we have many reasons to believe so - France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion.
> 
> It was India’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.



Do you know how much our frontline naval ship use or may be use in future US GT engine, EMALS etc.?


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## Stephen Cohen

Guys JUST IMAGINE the Excitement ;anxiety and nervousness at * IAF Headquarters *


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## Joseph Goebbels

Abingdonboy said:


> No, just no.


care to explain that Sir ?


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## The Huskar

The_Sidewinder said:


> @Chanakya's chant & @Indian Jaat & @halupridol @Jayanta @zootinali @The Huskar
> 
> Bhailog time have come it seems. Kuch meetha ho jaye


Mithai from my home state




Happy bihu in advance to all my assamese brothers.

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## Manindra

Abingdonboy said:


> I am not saying the F-18 couldn't be made to operate at those heights and relatively easily (as the DRDO have shown) but the fact is the F-18 Boeing took to Leh were not able to deliver the performance the IAF stipulated and hence they were marked down because of it. It is no good any of the OEMs saying "we can produce a better product given xyz" if that were the case they should have brought that product in the first place!
> 
> The ToT or lack thereof only would have become an issue had the F-18 been "down selected"with the Rafale and EFT. The trails and evaluations were 100% about technical capabilities, the sealed bids were only opened AFTER this down select and the bids of the non-down selected fighters (F-18, Gripen, F-16 and MiG-35) were returned to their OEMs unopened.


Which are the capabilities ?
AoA or G performance or payload capacity on that attitude ?
These are just face savings


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## Srinivas

Stephen Cohen said:


> I am reminded of few LINES from a Hindi song of the Movie DON
> 
> Pal Pal Ek Hulchul
> *Every moment there’s some movement / distraction*
> 
> Dil Mein Ek Toofaan Hai
> *There’s a storm inside my heart
> *
> Aane Ko Hai, Woh Manzil
> *I’m about to reach that destination
> *
> Jiska Mujhe Armaan Hain
> *Which I had desired *



Poetry on Rafale

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> Guys JUST IMAGINE the Excitement ;anxiety and nervousness at * IAF Headquarters *


They will have been in the loop throughout so they are unlikely to be as anxious as us 



Manindra said:


> Which are the capabilities ?
> AoA or G performance or payload capacity on that attitude ?
> These are just face savings


There were 600+ technical criteria to meet, no a/c met all of them but some did better than others and the IAF picked the two a/c that performed best.


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## Stephen Cohen

Srinivas said:


> Poetry on Rafale



What ELSE can we do mate ; right now
just pray and sing


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## drunken-monke

Manindra said:


> Very shoddy comparison
> They compare current F-18 BVRAAM to future Rafale BVRAAM
> They ignore F-18 operational AESA which also have edge Rafale's future AESA
> Even they trying to compare their guns
> They ignore the price factor of both


F18 is a old design which has limited future development scope.. Barring growler, SH lags Rafale everywhere.. The most important segment is its thrust to weight ratio which is 0.93.. IAFs requirement is above 1..

And IAF had good experience while operating M2K in 1999..

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## Manindra

Abingdonboy said:


> There were 600+ technical criteria to meet, no a/c met all of them but some did better than others and the IAF picked the two a/c that performed best.



600 + Technical criteria applied only on high attitude without making public ?


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## The_Sidewinder

The Huskar said:


> Mithai from my home state
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy bihu in advance to all my assamese brothers.




Happy Rongali bihu bondhu. Axakoru bihubto kuxole mongole jauge. Right now pitha ponar raw materials or bojar ote byosto asu.

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## Joseph Goebbels

thing is Rafale is the best 4.5+ gen fighter owt there onli problem is cost and its wepons pakage is also way damn expensive when compared to F/A -18 E F advanced super hornet so its looks like this rafale deal if its true is just a eye wash for something bigger


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## Abingdonboy

badnam hazza miskin said:


> care to explain that Sir ?


The "kickbacks" argument when it comes to Indian defence deals has long since past, the rules in place are so stringent that the question of graft has virtually been removed the issue now is the MoD has been (perhaps is even today) run by bureaucrats who are so afraid of the mere perception of wrongdoing that they would chose inaction over sticking their neck out even the slightest bit.



badnam hazza miskin said:


> looks like this rafale deal if its true is just a eye wash for something bigger


Such as?


----------



## AsianLion

Mr.Nair said:


> Don't worry we are moving in a right direction, this is a *Tata Lockheed Martin Aerostructures Ltd
> 
> View attachment 213744
> 
> *
> This is a aerospace factory which your country never even dream about....




LOL - You prove my point, Tata LOCKHEED MARTIN - 99% Foreign US donated tech, only piece of land is in India and maybe some cheap labour & steel.

Stop making a Fool of India, with 'Make in India' n Indians so called indigenous inventions. Its a Joke! 

Tell me how can you go to France, and ask the foreigners for 'Make in India' ?? it sounds crazy and disappointing for Indian and its Prime Minister to carry such a slogan.


----------



## The Huskar

The_Sidewinder said:


> Happy Rongali bihu bondhu. Axakoru bihubto kuxole mongole jauge. Right now pitha ponar raw materials or bojar ote byosto asu.


Amuru ghorot pitha.ladu bonai ase juwakailoir pora.

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## Abingdonboy

Manindra said:


> 600 + Technical criteria applied only on high attitude without making public ?


No, 600+ for the entire evaluation for the MMRCA bid.


----------



## The Huskar

Abingdonboy said:


> The "kickbacks" argument when it comes to Indian defence deals has long since past, the rules in place are so stringent that the question of graft has virtually been removed the issue now is the MoD has been (perhaps is even today) run by bureaucrats who are so afraid of the mere perception of wrongdoing that they would chose inaction over sticking their neck out even the slightest bit.
> 
> 
> Such as?


Sir,do you think some amount of TOT is possible on such a deal.


----------



## Chanakya's_Chant

Manindra said:


> Do you know how much our frontline naval ship use or may be use in future US GT engine, EMALS etc.?



You mean LM 2500 gas turbine engines? Only Shivalik class frigates use them as of now - manufactured by HAL. As for the future - no one can be sure - the MMRCA deal until now was supposed to be 126 fighter deal - now its 63.



Manindra said:


> 600 + Technical criteria applied only on high attitude without making public ?



If there would have been anything fishy - the CAG would have taken a note of it as it usually does.


----------



## Indo-guy

Stephen Cohen said:


> The announcement should be BEFORE the boat ride
> 
> Otherwise they will say that FRANCE has taken MODI for a ride



I just hope they do not end up sinking each other !


----------



## Joseph Goebbels

Abingdonboy said:


> The "kickbacks" argument when it comes to Indian defence deals has long since past, the rules in place are so stringent that the question of graft has virtually been removed the issue now is the MoD has been (perhaps is even today) run by bureaucrats who are so afraid of the mere perception of wrongdoing that they would chose inaction over sticking their neck out even the slightest bit.
> 
> 
> Such as?


you mean indian babu's are scared of taking "bribe"i guess that was the biggest joke on this thread

trust me sir no matter how tight the contract maybe there still be some "leakages" or say "loopholes"


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## Abingdonboy

The Huskar said:


> Sir,do you think some amount of TOT is possible on such a deal.


Lol, the third "sir" of the day, come on guys I am only 20!!


And I think for the right place ToT for certain tech is possible.


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## Manindra

drunken-monke said:


> F18 is a old design which has limited future development scope.. Barring growler, SH lags Rafale everywhere.. The most important segment is its thrust to weight ratio which is 0.93.. IAFs requirement is above 1..
> 
> And IAF had good experience while operating M2K in 1999..



F-18 is old not F-18 Super Hornet
Your own badly written sources confirm that F-18 does not lag Rafale much except if it would be strip down model.

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## drunken-monke

AsianUnion said:


> LOL - You prove my point, Tata LOCKHEED MARTIN - 99% Foreign US donated tech, only piece of land is in India and maybe some cheap labour & steel.
> 
> Stop making a Fool of India, with 'Make in India' n Indians so called indigenous inventions. Its a Joke!
> 
> Tell me how can you go to France, and ask the foreigners for 'Make in India' ?? it sounds crazy and disappointing for Indian and its Prime Minister to carry such a slogan.


That's what China has been doing.. Meanwhile Pakistan Tourism departments advertisement,

*''Have a blast , it might be your last" !!!*
*
Ever you thought of why foreign multinational companies are not investing / setting up RND manufacturing sites at Pakistan?*

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## Abingdonboy

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> the MMRCA deal until now was supposed to be 126 fighter deal - now its 63.


Or 189 (63+ 126)


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## drunken-monke

Manindra said:


> F-18 is old not F-18 Super Hornet
> Your own badly written sources confirm that F-18 does not lag Rafale much except if it would be strip down model.


And do you expect USA/Boeing to give state of the art version to India??


----------



## Manindra

Abingdonboy said:


> No, 600+ for the entire evaluation for the MMRCA bid.


They don't make public that which criteria they disqualify F-18 except engine start in Leh. Rest you can guess.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

@Abingdonboy

There were more than 643 test points 

Source French jet Rafale bags $20bn IAF fighter order; India 'briefs' losing European countries - The Times of India

after grueling field trials by IAF test pilots found only Rafale and Typhoon "compliant" on all the* 643-660 technical *parameters laid down to meet specific operational requirements of India.

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## Bang Galore

Oh boy! More fun news on the Rafale: 

*Swamy Threatens 'Legal Recourse' If Govt Goes Ahead With Rafale Deal*



BJP leader Subramanian Swamy today threatened to take legal recourse if government went ahead with Rafale jet deal with France, saying there were shortcomings in the fighter aircraft.

Swamy, National Executive member of the party, requested Prime Minister Narendra Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.

Modi is currently in France and will hold comprehensive talks with the French leadership during which the Rafale deal is likely to figure.

"There are two major issues with the Rafale Aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.

"If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said.

The statement further said that some countries have cancelled contract after signing an MoU with Dassault.

"It is a fact that Dassault will go bankrupt if no country buys the Rafale and we want to oblige the French goodwill, it is better to buy Dassault itself rather than their planes as it will be more beneficial," the leader added.

Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.

While initially, the deal was expected to be around USD 10 billion, it is now estimated to be over USD 20 billion.

Swamy Threatens 'Legal Recourse' If Govt Goes Ahead With Rafale Deal

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## Indo-guy

Abingdonboy said:


> 30



is that the number of your teeth ?

what happened to ' wisdom ' teeth ? LOL

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## Manindra

drunken-monke said:


> And do you expect USA/Boeing to give state of the art version to India??


F-18 SH IN are not strip down.


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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> Or 189 (63+ 126)



I have a sinking feeling. SOmetimes things are too good to be true. The higher probability will be to get a lameduck deal.


----------



## Manindra

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> You mean LM 2500 gas turbine engines? Only Shivalik class frigates use them as of now - manufactured by HAL. As for the future - no one can be sure - the MMRCA deal until now was supposed to be 126 fighter deal - now its 63.
> 
> 
> 
> If there would have been anything fishy - the CAG would have taken a note of it as it usually does.


HAL just assemle from CKD kits and we use those engine in IAC-1, EMALS & their fighter wing, ASW helicopters .

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## Abingdonboy

Manindra said:


> They don't make public that which criteria they disqualify F-18 except engine start in Leh. Rest you can guess.


The IAF want the best plane for themselves, this is a safe assumption I'm sure you could agree. They don't care too much about ToT or "the bigger picture" and the decision to down select the Rafale and EFT was made based on the IAF's recommendations based on their technical analysis of all 6 products. As such I say that the notion the F-18 was eliminated purely because ToT was an issue is a pure fallacy there were more fundamental issues with the F-18 itself and the IAF saw the more modern "Eurocanards" as more attractive offers.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I have a sinking feeling. SOmetimes things are too good to be true. The higher probability will be to get a lameduck deal.



Keep calm and trust MODI


----------



## Abingdonboy

Bang Galore said:


> Oh boy! More fun news on the Rafale:
> 
> *Swamy Threatens 'Legal Recourse' If Govt Goes Ahead With Rafale Deal*
> 
> 
> 
> BJP leader Subramanian Swamy today threatened to take legal recourse if government went ahead with Rafale jet deal with France, saying there were shortcomings in the fighter aircraft.
> 
> Swamy, National Executive member of the party, requested Prime Minister Narendra Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.
> 
> Modi is currently in France and will hold comprehensive talks with the French leadership during which the Rafale deal is likely to figure.
> 
> "There are two major issues with the Rafale Aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.
> 
> "If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said.
> 
> The statement further said that some countries have cancelled contract after signing an MoU with Dassault.
> 
> "It is a fact that Dassault will go bankrupt if no country buys the Rafale and we want to oblige the French goodwill, it is better to buy Dassault itself rather than their planes as it will be more beneficial," the leader added.
> 
> Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.
> 
> While initially, the deal was expected to be around USD 10 billion, it is now estimated to be over USD 20 billion.
> 
> Swamy Threatens 'Legal Recourse' If Govt Goes Ahead With Rafale Deal


What an utter utter clown, Modi has got to be sick of these fools within his own party getting in the way of his own agenda and the greater good.


----------



## Manindra

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF want the best plane for themselves, this is a safe assumption I'm sure you could agree. They don't care too much about ToT or "the bigger picture" and the decision to down select the Rafale and EFT was made based on the IAF's recommendations based on their technical analysis of all 6 products. As such I say that the notion the F-18 was eliminated purely because ToT was an issue is a pure fallacy there were more fundamental issues with the F-18 itself and the IAF saw the more modern "Eurocanards" as more attractive offers.


With twice price of F-18 for slightly better performance ?


----------



## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> What an utter utter clown, Modi has got to be sick of these fools within his own party getting in the way of his own agenda and the greater good.




This movie has everything - love, dejection, anger,betrayal, hope...., there has to be a place for some humour somewhere.

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## Pichkari

My sources say that deal done for 63 aircrafts. Old one srapped.


----------



## Guynextdoor2

Bang Galore said:


> Oh boy! More fun news on the Rafale:
> 
> *Swamy Threatens 'Legal Recourse' If Govt Goes Ahead With Rafale Deal*
> 
> 
> 
> BJP leader Subramanian Swamy today threatened to take legal recourse if government went ahead with Rafale jet deal with France, saying there were shortcomings in the fighter aircraft.
> 
> Swamy, National Executive member of the party, requested Prime Minister Narendra Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.
> 
> Modi is currently in France and will hold comprehensive talks with the French leadership during which the Rafale deal is likely to figure.
> 
> "There are two major issues with the Rafale Aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.
> 
> "If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said.
> 
> The statement further said that some countries have cancelled contract after signing an MoU with Dassault.
> 
> "It is a fact that Dassault will go bankrupt if no country buys the Rafale and we want to oblige the French goodwill, it is better to buy Dassault itself rather than their planes as it will be more beneficial," the leader added.
> 
> Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.
> 
> While initially, the deal was expected to be around USD 10 billion, it is now estimated to be over USD 20 billion.
> 
> Swamy Threatens 'Legal Recourse' If Govt Goes Ahead With Rafale Deal



I had told you guys that Swami will now start attacking Modi. Didn't take long . Obviously another prediction that the Bhakt didn't like but is bang on 
Subramanian Swamy launches Hindutva outfit

@Bang Galore @Abingdonboy @Screambowl 



Pichkari said:


> My sources say that deal done for 63 aircrafts. Old one srapped.



You mean TOTAL only 63? Or 63 + 126?


----------



## Pichkari

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I had told you guys that Swami will now start attacking Modi. Didn't take long . Obviously another prediction that the Bhakt didn't like but is bang on
> Subramanian Swamy launches Hindutva outfit
> 
> 
> 
> You mean TOTAL only 63? Or 63 + 126?


 63 bhai.
The french were like "ITne poise mein itna hi milta hai ".


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## Guynextdoor2

Pichkari said:


> 63 bhai.
> The french were like "ITne poise mein itna hi milta hai ".



Please let this not be true. We desperately need them jets.

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## mad_max

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Please let this not be true. We desperately need them jets.


No money No honey


----------



## Guynextdoor2

mad_max said:


> No money No honey



There is money for this one.

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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I have a sinking feeling. SOmetimes things are too good to be true. The higher probability will be to get a lameduck deal.


Let's wait and see but I can't think this has got to be a 63+126 or if you wish 81+108 deal:

1)Will bring still ToT
2) Fits in with Modi's "Make in India" campaign 
3) Addresses the depleting Sqn strength of the IAF almost immediately 

A straight deal for 63 off the shelf undoes all three points.

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## mad_max

Guynextdoor2 said:


> There is money for this one.


French are like In 8 billion only 63 will come take it or leave it , we can add one packet of thepla free with every jet


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## mad_max

Abingdonboy said:


> Let's wait and see but I can't think this has got to be a 63+126 or if you wish 81+108 deal:
> 
> 1)Will bring still ToT
> 2) Fits in with Modi's "Make in India" campaign
> 3) Addresses the depleting Sqn strength of the IAF almost immediately
> 
> A straight deal for 63 off the shelf undoes all three points.


In 10 billion USD which your govt is willing to spend expect no more than 81 jets.


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## Guynextdoor2

mad_max said:


> French are like In 8 billion only 63 will come take it or leave it , we can add one packet of thepla free with every jet



French are not in a position to say take it or leave it. There are jobs on the line.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

mad_max said:


> , we can add one packet of thepla free with every jet



what ONLY thepla ? Get lost man


----------



## uparyupari

Pichkari said:


> 63 bhai.
> The french were like "ITne poise mein itna hi milta hai ".



Kitne paise mei ?


----------



## Abingdonboy

mad_max said:


> In 10 billion USD which your govt is willing to spend expect no more than 81 jets.


Where has this figure come from? No one has said that is all the GoI is willing to spend.

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## Guynextdoor2

UgandaToRawanda said:


> Do you mean 63 + 63 = 126



It can be 126/2 = 63 (bad)
or
126+63=189 (good)

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## Stephen Cohen

What if the Decision is POSTPONED till tomorrow 

It is going to be a LONG night

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## Indo-guy

Bang Galore said:


> This movie has everything - love, dejection, anger,betrayal, hope...., there has to be a place for some humour somewhere.



Just hope ..that movie has a Happy Ending ....

and we not just end up getting milked

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## Vyom

AsianUnion said:


> LOL - You prove my point, Tata LOCKHEED MARTIN - 99% Foreign US donated tech, only piece of land is in India and maybe some cheap labour & steel.
> 
> Stop making a Fool of India, with 'Make in India' n Indians so called indigenous inventions. Its a Joke!
> 
> Tell me how can you go to France, and ask the foreigners for 'Make in India' ?? it sounds crazy and disappointing for Indian and its Prime Minister to carry such a slogan.



And that is coming from Pakistan that doesn't even have an Automobile Industry. knock yourself out.  . for the record if anything is made in India and sold anywhere, using anyone's technology, as long it employs Indians and gives jobs to people it counts, that is make in India is all about, setting up manufacturing base, not R&D... which will develop gradually. Its beneficial to the economy. 

I work in one of the many power companies in Inida that has the available capacity twice than the total installed capacity of Pakistan. India's total installed capacity is 13 times bigger than that of Pakistan. Look who is talking .. now lets stick to the topic shall we ?

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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> It can be 126/2 = 63 (bad)


Correction- *VERY* bad.


I for one will be incredibly disappointed if 63 is the total deal, I don't think we will know the full long term agenda even if a deal for 63 is announced today because the issues with the local production of 108 jets in India remain. 63 could be announced today with the talks for the 108 to be built in India going on in the background.

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## Stephen Cohen

UgandaToRawanda said:


> how to start my own thread??



You have to WAIT 
First complete 100 posts or ONE week may be 

Read the rules

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## halupridol

The Huskar said:


> Mithai from my home state
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy bihu in advance to all my assamese brothers.


eibur bhogalitey khalu,,,,rongalit montu rong songiya koriboloi olop kiba paniya he Khambopiakon hot otike senehi rongalir xubhessa jasilu

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## Gabriel92

Come on Modi,i didn't buy this Champagne for nothing.

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## Pichkari

Guynextdoor2 said:


> It can be 126/2 = 63 (bad)
> or
> 126+63=189 (good)


 
thats almost equal to entire functional f16 fleet of pakistan. so not bad at all i delivered early.


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## mad_max

Guynextdoor2 said:


> French are not in a position to say take it or leave it. There are jobs on the line.


They are in fact , with 2 sales orders inline they are in better position to negotiate and they have vote in UN permanent membership which INDIA needs.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Gabriel92 said:


> Come on Modi,i didn't buy this Champagne for nothing.



Sir We Indian defence enthusiasts have INVESTED 
* So much emotion in this deal ; we really want it badly *


----------



## Guynextdoor2

mad_max said:


> They are in fact , with 2 sales orders inline they are in better position to negotiate and they have vote in UN permanent membership which INDIA needs.



You're a Chinese troll doing the usual Chinese trolling thing.



Gabriel92 said:


> Come on Modi,i didn't buy this Champagne for nothing.



A good deal and some Indians will open it with you. Good possibilities for a 'win-win' here. Hope intelligent bargaining prevails.

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## mad_max

Guynextdoor2 said:


> You're a Chinese troll doing the usual Chinese trolling thing.


FYI i am Indian origin american citizen.


----------



## commander jain

kuch hone to do...jan pehle hi nazar laga do ge tum sab..


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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> A good deal and some Indians will open it with you. Good possibilities for a 'win-win' here. Hope intelligent bargaining prevails.

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## Abingdonboy

A joint Hollande-Modi press conference is scheduled at 6pm French time (GMT +2)

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## a.kumar

Wait till 8 for some good news


----------



## Bang Galore

*UPDATE 2-India aims to agree $8 bln buy of 63 Rafale jets -Le Monde*


* Le Monde says deal could be worth 7.2 bln euros

* Sides eyeing compromise deal during Indian PM visit

* France, India have already been negotiating for 3 yrs (Adds Indian official's comment, more from Le Monde, background, share price)

PARIS, April 10 (Reuters) - India was aiming to agree a deal to buy 63 French-made Rafale fighter jets for 7.2 billion euros ($7.7 billion) during the Indian prime minister's visit to Paris starting on Friday, Le Monde newspaper reported.

Indian officials confirmed that a major push was on to reach an agreement to buy Rafales during Modi's visit to Paris, with one holding out the prospect of an announcement - if not a final deal - if India is able to secure more favourable terms.

Talks have been going on for more than three years over how to resolve differences over pricing and local assembly.

"The discussions went on through the night and were still going on this morning," Le Monde quoted a source close to the matter as saying.

"The idea is to announce the contract during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris on Friday or Saturday," the source said.

Neither Dassault Aviation, which builds the Rafale, nor the French president's office could be reached for comment. The French defence ministry declined to comment.

The Hindustan Times and a widely watched defence blogger said that a direct government-to-government contract to buy a smaller number of planes than the 126 originally envisaged under a tender deal was one possible outcome because of problems linked to localising production of most of the planes in India.

Blogger Nitin Ghokale said the talks focused on buying between 60 and 63 jets.

_*One Indian official, who requested anonymity, said, "It's correct that discussions are under way, but a contract announcement is a bit of hype."*_

_*"If things work out and terms are more attractive than earlier, then maybe an understanding."*_

_*A source at the Indian defence ministry said that a "serious effort" was under way by both sides to reach a solution*_.

Modi, who in an interview on April 8 said the two countries should be able to make progress in talks on the Rafale, is in France for a two-day state visit. There is due to be a signing ceremony for various contracts late on Friday and a joint news conference with President Francois Hollande at 1800 (1600 GMT).

The original Rafale contract was worth $12 billion but was widely estimated to have increased to $20 billion, primarily because of the implications of building some of the jets in India. It is not clear how the Paris talks fit into that deal.

Analysts say Dassault's Rafale deal with Egypt in February may have helped break the logjam in negotiations with other customers since they are now on notice that if they want to have the Rafale they may have to wait for it.

India's military says it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017.

Dassault shares were up 4.6 percent by 0957 GMT. (Reporting by Leigh Thomas, John Irish in Paris and Frank Jack Daniel, Rupam Jain Nair and Douglas Busvine in New Delhi; Editing by James Regan)

UPDATE 2-India aims to agree $8 bln buy of 63 Rafale jets -Le Monde| Reuters

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## UgandaToRawanda



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## AsianLion

Rafale delivery 2020 onwards, with PAF flying J-31 / Pak FC-31 and Jf17 Block III in numbers ...lol


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## Dr Gupta

I have a source who said a MoU would be signed in France


----------



## mad_max

AsianUnion said:


> Rafale delivery 2020 onwards, with PAF flying J-31 / Pak FC-31 and Jf17 Block III in numbers ...lol



Stop dreaming , first let Chinese complete this project by 2020 and even if they they wont be gifting it to Pakistan and buying these for Pakistan is out of question , no money no honey , no one will give you this as gift or donation.
And Indians in all probability would have inducted around 100 odd rafales or other 4.5 gen alternative to replace mig 27 by 2020

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## Pichkari

AsianUnion said:


> Rafale delivery 2020 onwards, with PAF flying J-31 / Pak FC-31 and Jf17 Block III in numbers ...lol


 
We dont need rafale to handle those.
Its a joke to mention jf17 along with rafales and j31.
BTW let china induct j31 pehle.

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## Matrixx

Gabriel92 said:


> Come on Modi,i didn't buy this Champagne for nothing.


Dont worry we will open Champagne together tonight

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## gslv mk3

AsianUnion said:


> What a joke is this,'Make in India' should be prime motto in France, eh? France in India or some foreign country.
> 
> Make in India should be by Indians themselves, invented indigenous, Indian raw materials, Indian skill.
> 
> Indians sure make a complete mockery of 'indigenous,' and 'make in India' slogans...and world laughs whenever an Indian comes up with indigenous, make in India empty words!



Seriously dude ? 'Make in India' is aimed at developing India as a manufacturing powerhouse.And FYI major aircraft manufacturers including Airbus & Boeing have design centers in India.

For the sake of indigenous development,there are numerous indigenous aerospace programs and all these -LCA,LCH,LUH,AMCA,NCA and several other programs which include indigenous design & development.

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## egodoc222

Tipu7 said:


> But Su30MKI are not for us? And Rafales are for China?
> if Su30MKI are for China then simply Rafales are for Pakistan
> since they r for Pakistan so its our concern too


both are for china...we have enough mig 29s for those old block 50s...so there nothing new to concern you!


----------



## AMCA

AsianUnion said:


> What a joke is this,'Make in India' should be prime motto in France, eh? France in India or some foreign country.
> 
> Make in India should be by Indians themselves, invented indigenous, Indian raw materials, Indian skill.
> 
> Indians sure make a complete mockery of 'indigenous,' and 'make in India' slogans...and world laughs whenever an Indian comes up with indigenous, make in India empty words!



Dude are all people from your country as dull witted as.... Never MIND!! Make in India is the Govt of India's push to make India a manufacturing hub for all the commodities the world produces today. India has now got the cheapest at the same time skilled laborers, which makes India an ideal location to invest. 

Although our bureaucracy in its present stage is very primitive and we are working on it to facilitate foreign investors to get their companies started within a day or two. But it sure takes time.

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## magudi

gslv mk3 said:


> Seriously dude ? 'Make in India' is aimed at developing India as a manufacturing powerhouse.And FYI major aircraft manufacturers including Airbus & Boeing have design centers in India.
> 
> For the sake of indigenous development,there are numerous indigenous aerospace programs and all these -LCA,LCH,LUH,AMCA,NCA and several other programs which include indigenous design & development.




Welcome back 

Missed you hunting trolls here

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## halfilhal

AsianUnion said:


> LOL, lol, LCA, LCH, LUH, AMCA (doesnot even exist), NCA...
> 
> The foreign content of the LCA/Tejas If you measure by value, the "Indian" LCA/Tejas is 90% foreign:
> 
> 1. American GE F414 engine
> 2. Israeli Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar
> 3. Israeli Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS)
> 4. French Sextant multi-function displays (MFDs)
> 5. British Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat
> 6. Israeli Rafael laser Litening Targeting Pods (which is derived from American Northrop Grumman technology)
> 7. Russian GSh-23 cannon
> 8. Russian/Israeli missiles
> 9. French Sagem SIGMA 95N ring-laser gyroscope
> 10. British BAE Systems ship-sets of actuators (at $2 million each) for LCA/Tejas
> 11. Canadian canopy sheath
> 12. British air-to-air refueling probe
> 13. British nose cone
> 
> So much joke news of 'Make in India', rather just assembled in India, indigenous LCA, LCH, Dhruv...lol.



I found it hard to fap to your post. Please include some sexy words.


----------



## AsianLion

gslv mk3 said:


> For the sake of indigenous development,there are numerous indigenous aerospace programs and all these -LCA,LCH,LUH,AMCA,NCA and several other programs which include indigenous design & development.




LOL, lol, LCA, LCH, LUH, AMCA (does not even exist), NCA...

The foreign donated content of the LCA / Tejas If you measure by value, the "Indian" LCA/Tejas is 90% foreign:

1. American GE F414 engine
2. Israeli Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar
3. Israeli Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS)
4. French Sextant multi-function displays (MFDs)
5. British Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat
6. Israeli Rafael laser Litening Targeting Pods (which is derived from American Northrop Grumman technology)
7. Russian GSh-23 cannon
8. Russian/Israeli missiles
9. French Sagem SIGMA 95N ring-laser gyroscope
10. British BAE Systems ship-sets of actuators (at $2 million each) for LCA/Tejas
11. Canadian canopy sheath
12. British air-to-air refueling probe
13. British nose cone

So much joke news of 'Make in India', indigenous LCA, LCH, Dhruv...lol.

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## xyxmt

The_Sidewinder said:


> *Like I said in another thread, India will
> buy Rafeal on current Modi trip. French
> like English know the desi Psyche, roll
> out the red carpet, make him feel
> important and desi gets under
> pressure...he will buy steel as a Gold.* isnt this statement itself a naive one. Mode went to French & we all knew from months ago a breakthrough will be reached. Given IAFs depleting numbers & threat perception it was imperetive to reach a conclusion in here. Isnt it short sightedness in your part to ignore these facts & relating the deal to buttering on part of france.



here is the deal, if someone can read doesn't mean he will understand the message.


----------



## Ammyy

AsianUnion said:


> LOL, lol, LCA, LCH, LUH, AMCA (does not even exist), NCA...
> 
> The foreign donated content of the LCA / Tejas If you measure by value, the "Indian" LCA/Tejas is 90% foreign:
> 
> 1. American GE F414 engine
> 2. Israeli Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar
> 3. Israeli Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS)
> 4. French Sextant multi-function displays (MFDs)
> 5. British Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat
> 6. Israeli Rafael laser Litening Targeting Pods (which is derived from American Northrop Grumman technology)
> 7. Russian GSh-23 cannon
> 8. Russian/Israeli missiles
> 9. French Sagem SIGMA 95N ring-laser gyroscope
> 10. British BAE Systems ship-sets of actuators (at $2 million each) for LCA/Tejas
> 11. Canadian canopy sheath
> 12. British air-to-air refueling probe
> 13. British nose cone
> 
> So much joke news of 'Make in India', indigenous LCA, LCH, Dhruv...lol.



 Atleast we are testing and developing subsystems in India, unlike some paint job scientist whose goods not even tested in your country.

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## egodoc222

AsianUnion said:


> LOL, lol, LCA, LCH, LUH, AMCA (does not even exist), NCA...
> 
> The foreign donated content of the LCA / Tejas If you measure by value, the "Indian" LCA/Tejas is 90% foreign:
> 
> 1. American GE F414 engine
> 2. Israeli Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar
> 3. Israeli Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS)
> 4. French Sextant multi-function displays (MFDs)
> 5. British Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat
> 6. Israeli Rafael laser Litening Targeting Pods (which is derived from American Northrop Grumman technology)
> 7. Russian GSh-23 cannon
> 8. Russian/Israeli missiles
> 9. French Sagem SIGMA 95N ring-laser gyroscope
> 10. British BAE Systems ship-sets of actuators (at $2 million each) for LCA/Tejas
> 11. Canadian canopy sheath
> 12. British air-to-air refueling probe
> 13. British nose cone
> 
> So much joke news of 'Make in India', indigenous LCA, LCH, Dhruv...lol.


lol 
love it when enemies back burns!!!


----------



## bloo

Very bittersweet.


----------



## egodoc222

Ammyy said:


> Atleast we are testing and developing subsystems in India, unlike some paint job scientist whose goods not even tested in your country.


dude! dont break the bubble...he may die of shock...let him live in his paradise land..

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## anant_s

gslv mk3 said:


> Seriously dude ? 'Make in India' is aimed at developing India as a manufacturing powerhouse.And FYI major aircraft manufacturers including Airbus & Boeing have design centers in India.
> 
> For the sake of indigenous development,there are numerous indigenous aerospace programs and all these -LCA,LCH,LUH,AMCA,NCA and several other programs which include indigenous design & development.


Good to see u back!

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## kaku1

AsianUnion said:


> LOL, lol, LCA, LCH, LUH, AMCA (does not even exist), NCA...
> 
> The foreign donated content of the LCA / Tejas If you measure by value, the "Indian" LCA/Tejas is 90% foreign:
> 
> 1. American GE F414 engine
> 2. Israeli Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar
> 3. Israeli Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS)
> 4. French Sextant multi-function displays (MFDs)
> 5. British Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat
> 6. Israeli Rafael laser Litening Targeting Pods (which is derived from American Northrop Grumman technology)
> 7. Russian GSh-23 cannon
> 8. Russian/Israeli missiles
> 9. French Sagem SIGMA 95N ring-laser gyroscope
> 10. British BAE Systems ship-sets of actuators (at $2 million each) for LCA/Tejas
> 11. Canadian canopy sheath
> 12. British air-to-air refueling probe
> 13. British nose cone
> 
> So much joke news of 'Make in India', indigenous LCA, LCH, Dhruv...lol.


Okey.


----------



## SR-91

Fu@king awesome.
60 Rafales by 2017. Deal for 126 signed by this year.
Dassault delivers 18 off the shelf 36 months after signing. So probably by 2018.
HAL starts production by the time n probably deliver a squadron by 2019.

So overall by 2019, indian air force will have approximately 5 squadrons. This is best case scenario, if delayed, around 3.5 to 4 squadrons, that's 70 to 80 jets. Which is still good.
That's about 70_ 100 brand new jets, this will change the outlook of IAF.

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## magudi

Ammyy said:


> Atleast we are testing and developing subsystems in India, unlike some paint job scientist whose goods not even tested in your country.




Are you effing kidding me? They import even the paint lol


----------



## The_Sidewinder

xyxmt said:


> here is the deal, if someone can read doesn't mean he will understand the message.



Sarcasm was not written over it, judging you from your previous posts history I am not wrong either.


----------



## UgandaToRawanda

*IF THIS DEAL IS SEALED TODAY*. *TOMORROW PAKISTAN WILL TEST HATF MISSILE.*


----------



## anant_s

Bang Galore said:


> Dassault shares were up 4.6 percent by 0957 GMT.


This probably is the biggest confirmation.


----------



## gslv mk3

AsianUnion said:


> LOL, lol, LCA, LCH, LUH, AMCA (does not even exist), NCA...


 Come back when your country have developed similar aircraft..lol



> The foreign donated content of the LCA / Tejas If you measure by value, the "Indian" LCA/Tejas is 90% foreign:



Absolute BS



> 1. American GE F414 engine
> 2. Israeli Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar
> 3. Israeli Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS)
> 4. French Sextant multi-function displays (MFDs)
> 5. British Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat
> 6. Israeli Rafael laser Litening Targeting Pods (which is derived from American Northrop Grumman technology)
> 7. Russian GSh-23 cannon
> 8. Russian/Israeli missiles
> 9. French Sagem SIGMA 95N ring-laser gyroscope
> 10. British BAE Systems ship-sets of actuators (at $2 million each) for LCA/Tejas
> 11. Canadian canopy sheath
> 12. British air-to-air refueling probe
> 13. British nose cone



Indo Israeli Hybrid Radar
Samtel MFDs
Actuators already indigenised
Indian weapons -Astra BVRAAM,LGBs,IAF developed glide bombs
Gsh 23 cannon license manufactured at OFB

Now read my posts in this thread : HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Page 40

And go check how many fighters developed outside US/Russia/Europe have an indigenous engine.
I dont want to debate with a dumb troll who claims that the weapon systems,HMDS etc would make an aircraft less indigenous



AsianUnion said:


> So much joke news of 'Make in India', indigenous LCA, LCH, Dhruv...lol.



Yup...keep making a fool out of yourself dumb troll.

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## magudi

UgandaToRawanda said:


> *IF THIS DEAL IS SEALED TODAY*. *TOMORROW PAKISTAN WILL TEST HATF MISSILE.*

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> Fu@king awesome.
> 60 Rafales by 2017. Deal for 126 signed by this year.
> Dassault delivers 18 off the shelf 36 months after signing. So probably by 2018.
> HAL starts production by the time n probably deliver a squadron by 2019.
> 
> So overall by 2019, indian air force will have approximately 5 squadrons. This is best case scenario, if delayed, around 3.5 to 4 squadrons, that's 70 to 80 jets. Which is still good.
> That's about 70_ 100 brand new jets, this will change the outlook of IAF.


IF this is the deal (189 jets) then we can actually celebrate tonight, if it is purely a "half MMRCA" for 63 Rafale then we will have to mourn.


----------



## kaku1

SR-91 said:


> Fu@king awesome.
> 60 Rafales by 2017. Deal for 126 signed by this year.
> Dassault delivers 18 off the shelf 36 months after signing. So probably by 2018.
> HAL starts production by the time n probably deliver a squadron by 2019.
> 
> So overall by 2019, indian air force will have approximately 5 squadrons. This is best case scenario, if delayed, around 3.5 to 4 squadrons, that's 70 to 80 jets. Which is still good.
> That's about 70_ 100 brand new jets, this will change the outlook of IAF.





Abingdonboy said:


> IF this is the deal (189 jets) then we can actually celebrate tonight, if it is purely a "half MMRCA" for 63 Rafale then we will have to mourn.


Funds bro?

Then say bye bye to FGFA.


----------



## longewala

UgandaToRawanda said:


> *IF THIS DEAL IS SEALED TODAY*. *TOMORROW PAKISTAN WILL TEST HATF MISSILE.*


Takes you that long to import from China and paint it green?


----------



## Joseph Goebbels

im sure if the deal goes thru for 63 french built and 126 HAL built rafale france just might add "DSI" tech to make rafales "super stealth" fighters


----------



## SuperSubrayan

So 2 hours to go ! Maximum . We will come to know is Deal is On or Off !


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## Donatello

How about PDF kills this Mother of all mother this and that?

Mods, no new news there, just same old parroting, we have a big specific thread on the Indian MMRCA.

Please close this.

@waz @Jungibaaz @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch

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## SuperSubrayan

Watch Headlines today ! Talk show on Rafale and french deal.buy expect some pot shot on modi. This channel is brand ambassador of Presstitutes .lol



Donatello said:


> How about PDF kills this Mother of all mother this and that?
> 
> Mods, no new news there, just same old parroting, we have a big specific thread on the Indian MMRCA.
> 
> Please close this.
> 
> @waz @Jungibaaz @Horus @Oscar @Irfan Baloch



You are mistaken ... MMRCA closed this is new govt to govt deal. Lots of new developments to take shape in coming hours by 9.30 - 10 PM ist we will hear the news on this. 

don't close this .

@WebMaster Bro why to close this thread ? This pure awesome response . I spent my whole night and day with this. Make it a futured thread !!! More info to follow during and after PRESS MEET !!! In just 2 hrs . 

@Oscar !!!!

Latest : NSAB member Pramit Chaudri says deal is aimed at buying insurance against China PLAF . And 40 -60 rafale and that's it .


----------



## Corsair

Green Angel said:


> Euro fighter is better choice than Rafale?.


In no way it is.


----------



## commander jain

any update?


----------



## GR!FF!N

wanglaokan said:


> then what it should be,Bhi?



Spelling is "bhai", not " bhi"...

Second,it should have to be "China's", not China

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## kaku1

Corsair said:


> In no way it is.


F-35 is better choice.


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## Corsair

kaku1 said:


> F-35 is better choice.


I highly doubt that India will accept to have a fighter jet under foreign control.
You don't really think that US will sell you AMRAAM and let you have full control of your F-35 do you ?

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## kaku1

Corsair said:


> I highly doubt that India will accept to have a fighter jet under foreign control.
> You don't really think that US will sell you AMRAAM and let you have full control of your F-35 do you ?


That was sarcasm.


----------



## Corsair

kaku1 said:


> That was sarcasm.


Don't mind me, sarcasm translates bad over the internet. And I already read a few totally non-sense serious post here, so.. you know..

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## ashok mourya

C130 said:


> might as well of bought the F-35 then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or 126+ super hornets/growlers with TOT


You came with F16 during tender if you came with F35 with tot then definitely you will get 20 billion$deal.But F35 not battle ready????


----------



## NKVD

قناص said:


> 25 JF-17 BLOCK II produced ???????
> 50 until 2011 and up to 25-26 more units until 2015.


i already visited that thread that you posted Even your Experts on PDF questioned its authenticity


----------



## ashok mourya

shree835 said:


> hmmm...Time to order some China Maal.


No guarantee and warranty. Just rasteka mall saste me...


----------



## Víðarr

Well at least this tender is making for some entertaining reading

The Rafale is amazing, though I'd still take an F/A-18 over it;










At the rate this tender is going though, this might be the only choice India is left with;





Hoping for some positive movement in the coming days.

And I know all about the stings attached (so don't lecture me on the politics of US sale), but still, the backup option remains a good choice too;

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## The_Sidewinder

@SuperSubrayan
what happened to breaking news thread dude??


----------



## NKVD

Corsair said:


> I highly doubt that India will accept to have a fighter jet under foreign control.
> You don't really think that US will sell you AMRAAM and let you have full control of your F-35 do you ?


why not india is not Britain but can be a successful ally of US in south Asia.they have given Us many high-tech equipment's like globemaster & c-130j super hercules ,P8i *Poseidon Many projects on its way why not fighters.*


----------



## Gabriel92

Víðarr said:


> Well at least this tender is making for some entertaining reading
> 
> The Rafale is amazing, though I'd still take an F/A-18 over it;
> View attachment 213828
> 
> 
> View attachment 213831
> 
> 
> At the rate this tender is going though, this might be the only choice India is left with;
> View attachment 213829
> 
> 
> Hoping for some positive movement in the coming days.
> 
> And I know all about the stings attached (so don't lecture me on the politics of US sale), but still, the backup option remains a good choice too;
> View attachment 213833
> 
> 
> View attachment 213834



Btch please

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## NKVD

Reuters) - India is hoping to mark a visit by its Prime Minister to France starting on Friday by finalising a deal for dozens of French fighter jets that the two countries have been negotiating over for more than three years, four French officials said.

Le Monde newspaper reported earlier on Friday that talks centred on the purchase of 63 Rafale jets for 7.2 billion euros ($7.7 billion), although the number of planes was not finalised.

A French diplomatic source said there could be an announcement as early as Friday evening but that the deal could ultimately involve fewer jets: more than the 24 France sold to Egypt in February but fewer than 50.

"There were discussions that lasted throughout the night," said a French government source, who declined to be identified due to the sensitivity of the talks. "We are probably in the final straight. We have never been so close."

Indian officials confirmed that a major push was on to reach an agreement to buy the Rafales during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris.

Talks have been going on for more than three years over how to resolve differences over pricing and local assembly for the planes, which are manufactured by Dassault Aviation.

The firm, whose shares were up 4.2 percent by 1426 GMT, declined to comment, as did the French president's office.

The original Indian Rafale contract - for 124 planes including 108 made in India - was worth $12 billion but was widely estimated to have increased to $20 billion, primarily because of the implications of building some of the jets in India.

It is not clear how the Paris talks fit into that deal.

Analysts say Dassault's Rafale deal with Egypt in February may have helped break the logjam in negotiations with other customers since they are now on notice that if they want to have the Rafale they may have to wait for it.

India's military says it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017.



India, France close to deal on Rafale jets - sources| Reuters

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## ashok mourya

Congressis started barking,without official confirmation about deal.


----------



## SpArK

3 squadrons. 21 aircraft in each squadrons. 

Break-up 
• 18 x active aircrafts
• 1 x aircraft in servicing
• 1 x standby aircraft
• 1 x trainer aircraft

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## ashok mourya

SpArK said:


> 3 squadrons. 21 aircraft in each squadrons.
> 
> Break-up
> • 18 x active aircrafts
> • 1 x aircraft in servicing
> • 1 x standby aircraft
> • 1 x trainer aircraft


What about rest 63 ,are they going to be in Make in India or they simply decreased the numbers that they flown in tender.


----------



## SpArK

ashok mourya said:


> What about rest 63 ,are they are going to be in Make in India or they simply decreased the numbers that they flown in tender.




Final news awaiting.

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## ruby007

*India on verge of deal for French Rafale jets - sources*
PARIS | By John Irish




A Rafale fighter jet performs during the Aero India air show at Yelahanka air base in Bengaluru February 18, 2015.
Reuters/Abhishek N. Chinnappa/Files

(Reuters) - India is close to finalising a deal for dozens of Rafale fighter jets during its Prime Minister's visit to France on Friday, four French officials said, an agreement that would come after three years of talks between the two countries on a larger contract.

Le Monde newspaper reported earlier on Friday that talks centred on the purchase of 63 Rafale jets for $7.7 billion.

A French diplomatic source said there could be an announcement as early as Friday evening but the deal could involve fewer planes: more than the 24 France sold to Egypt in February but fewer than 50.

"There were discussions that lasted throughout the night," said a French government source, who declined to be identified due to the sensitivity of the talks. "We are probably in the final straight. We have never been so close."

Two other French sources said talks were continuing throughout Friday.

Indian officials confirmed a major push to reach an agreement to buy the Rafales during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit.

Talks have been going on for more than three years amid differences over pricing and local assembly for the planes, which are manufactured by Dassault Aviation.

The firm, whose shares were up 3.6 percent by 1526 GMT, declined to comment, as did the French presidency and the defence ministry.

The original Indian Rafale contract - for 126 planes including 108 made in India - was worth $12 billion but was estimated to have increased to $20 billion, primarily because of the implications of building some of the jets in India.

It is not clear how the Paris talks fit into that deal.

Analysts say the deal with Egypt may have helped break the logjam in negotiations with other customers since they are now on notice that if they want to have Rafales they may have to wait for them.

India's military says it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017.

The Hindustan Times said a direct government-to-government contract for a smaller number of planes was one possible outcome because of problems linked to localising production of most of the planes in India.

Nitin Gokhale, a widely watched defence blogger, said the talks focused on buying between 60 and 63 jets.

A source at the Indian defence ministry said a “serious effort" was under way to reach a solution.

But another Indian official, who requested anonymity, described a possible contract announcement as "a bit of hype." "If things work out and terms are more attractive than earlier, then maybe (we will reach) an understanding."

Modi is in France for a two-day state visit. There is due to be a signing ceremony for various contracts late on Friday and a news conference with President Francois Hollande.


----------



## ashok mourya




----------



## Gabriel92

According to BFMTV,an "agreement" has been concluded between the two parts and India will only buy 40 Rafales the MMRCA is put aside because of the costs of the TOT,it could be official in the coming hours.
Let's wait an official confirmation though.

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## ashok mourya

Gabriel92 said:


> According to BFMTV,an "agreement" has been concluded between the two parts and India will only buy 40 Rafales the MMRCA is put aside because of the costs of the TOT,it could be official in the coming hours.
> Let's wait an official confirmation though.


Finally a practical deal that is accepted to both the parties which already delayed by a decade.


----------



## Pichkari

Gabriel92 said:


> According to BFMTV,an "agreement" has been concluded between the two parts and India will only buy 40 Rafales the MMRCA is put aside because of the costs of the TOT,it could be official in the coming hours.
> Let's wait an official confirmation though.



cost???


----------



## magudi

Gabriel92 said:


> According to BFMTV,an "agreement" has been concluded between the two parts and India will only buy 40 Rafales the MMRCA is put aside because of the costs of the TOT,it could be official in the coming hours.
> Let's wait an official confirmation though.



Just 40


----------



## nik141991

Gabriel92 said:


> According to BFMTV,an "agreement" has been concluded between the two parts and India will only buy 40 Rafales the MMRCA is put aside because of the costs of the TOT,it could be official in the coming hours.
> Let's wait an official confirmation though.


Only 40 this deal is killing me

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## ashok mourya




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## magudi

When exactly is the damn press conference


----------



## uparyupari

Pichkari said:


> cost???



Must be be little more than 4 Billion $ mentioned earlier. 

That would make it little more than 100 million $ per aircraft. A good deal without ToT.


----------



## ashok mourya

In this mean time news came one Indian died in Yemen.



magudi said:


> When exactly is the damn press conference


started

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## Stephen Cohen

PC has begun


----------



## gslv

If no TOT then no good for India. ToT should be must.


----------



## Basel

Tipu7 said:


> I guess they will. Since Pakistan will go for some new plate form to counter Rafales.................and this will make a difference if PAF goes for J10b............ 36 or 64 of them will make a lot of difference



If PAF will go for J-10 then they may like to go for the most updated "C" version not "B" version as the "C" version can handle any 4.5+ gen IAF can through against PAF.



egodoc222 said:


> both are for china...we have enough mig 29s for those old block 50s...so there nothing new to concern you!



Nah, you usually send MKI at our border during hostilities which mean IAF take those old F-16s very seriously.


----------



## nik141991

Plz any updates this anxiety is killing me


----------



## ganesh177

Presa conference is on but nothing on Rafael yet


----------



## Pulsar

That Guy said:


> Regardless of the massive cut in numbers, it seems Pakistan may end up having to speed up it's procurement of a high tech fighter soon. Even in small numbers, 60 is more than enough of a threat.


There is no cut in the overall numbers. *36 Rafales will be purchased in flyaway condition direct from France.* The remainder will be manufactured in India itself under a new HAL-Dassault consortium.


----------



## ashok mourya

Watch live Press conference of Modi and Hollande from Paris
PM Modi with France President Hollande at the Press Statement - YouTube


----------



## ganesh177

Hollande is talking now and news is modi will talk on Rafael


----------



## anant_s

Hollander is keeping the suspense, has asked PM Modi to explain.
Keep fingers crossed

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## magudi

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586571040152616961


----------



## Cry.me.a.River

nik141991 said:


> Plz any updates this anxiety is killing me




Currently President Hollande is addressing press conference. He has stated that Rafael deal would be announced by Modi; so in 10-15 minutes.

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## ashok mourya

Modi's speech started in hindi...


----------



## magudi

We have numerous joint projects in field of missiles, submarines as well as aircrafts: Hollande


----------



## PARIKRAMA

PM Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande are addressing a joint statement.
*Here are the highlights:*



France to invest 2 Billion Euros and develop 3 smart cities in India.
In the field of civil nuclear energy, India and France have signed the Jaitapur nuclear plant deal.
All of you are aware of the Rafale issue and I'll leave it to the PM to reveal the contents of our discussion, says President Hollande

Our partnership is not only restricted to economy, it is also because we have a global responsibility: French President Francois Hollande
France supports India to become member of United Nations Security Council: French President Francois Hollande

 more soon


----------



## ashok mourya

36 rafale in flyaway condition


----------



## anant_s

36 Rafael to be purchased on g to g


----------



## Pichkari

india to buy 36 rafale in fly away conditon


----------



## Matrixx

36 Rafale off the shelf ....on the way


----------



## ganesh177

36 it is


----------



## commander jain

36 rafael ..


----------



## Cry.me.a.River

Pulsar said:


> There is no cut in the overall numbers. *36 Rafales will be purchased in flyaway condition direct from France.* The remainder will be manufactured in India itself under a new HAL-Dassault consortium.




Only 36 Rafaels.


----------



## SamantK

36 aircraft in flyaway condition. Finally this mmcra is dead


----------



## UgandaToRawanda

36 rafales immediately.


----------



## anant_s

Yes yes yes


----------



## lightoftruth

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586574146391281665


----------



## Matrixx

filler planes


----------



## utraash

Which TV ?


----------



## Pulsar

East or West India Best said:


> or F-22


F-22? This a top secret technology aircraft not even given to its closest ally, Israel! Fighters like the F-35 have more than 35 international subcontractors! Therefore there's no secrecy in its systems. In contrast the F-22 has technology developed by top secret black projects like Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works like the top secret technology in the B-2 bomber.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

REST will be MADE in INDIA


----------



## SamantK

Some technology transfer on areas not disclosed


----------



## Corsair

Regarder France 24 en direct - France 24

I have no english link..


----------



## Chanakya's_Chant

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586574146391281665

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792

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## Cry.me.a.River

ashok mourya said:


> Modi's speech started in hindi...




If he is speaking in Hindi, he should speak in suudh Hindi, not Hindi-English mix like he is doing.



Cry.me.a.River said:


> Only 36 Rafaels.




That means that MMRCA deal is still on as 36 would not even make operational sense.


----------



## Screambowl

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833

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## uparyupari

36 for 4 billion $ ? 

111 million $ per aircraft.

2 squadron to be purchased from France on an immediate basis. In Fly away condition.


----------



## Matrixx

AREVA is coming back

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## Stephen Cohen

MODI used the words *Critical operational necessity of IAF *


----------



## SamantK

Cry.me.a.River said:


> If he is speaking in Hindi, he should speak in suudh Hindi, not Hindi-English mix like he is doing.


Please, Cry me a river

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## Georgeclark

@Gabriel92  Post the picture you wanted to post


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist* @livefist · now10 seconds ago
'Keeping IAF's crucial requirements in mind, have asked France to supply us 36 Rafale fighters ASAP.' ~ PM @NarendraModi


----------



## Pichkari

This is different from mmrca what i understand


----------



## ashok mourya

Cry.me.a.River said:


> If he is speaking in Hindi, he should speak in suudh Hindi, not Hindi-English mix like he is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That means that MMRCA deal is still on as 36 would not even make operational sense.


Thats called Hinglish ,the most used Language by Indians.


----------



## ganesh177

Hindi it is


----------



## Stephen Cohen

36 Rafales will take FOUR YEARS at least


----------



## ashok mourya

Matrixx said:


> AREVA is coming back


Joint venture with L& T

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## Storm Force

Great news we haveing 36 rafales off the shelf by 2017....

But want about the 126 mmrca is this Stil happening

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## uparyupari

I think this is a two part deal. 36 aircrafts for 2 squadrons to be purchased immediately in fly away condition from France. Further negotiations for Make in India for a larger order ?


----------



## kaku1

#*BreakingNews* #*Rafale* That's the news for the night. It's 36 and not 63.


----------



## ni8mare

utraash said:


> Which TV ?


NDTV 24x7: Watch Live TV, Live News, India News Free

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## Stephen Cohen

HAL will take time to set up its facilities 

Hence these 36 in FLY AWAY condition


----------



## Pichkari

Storm Force said:


> Great news we haveing 36 rafales off the shelf by 2017....
> 
> But want about the 126 mmrca is this Stil happening



All he said was that this is under a seperate deal.


----------



## Abingdonboy

ashok mourya said:


> Joint venture with L& T


Epic news in itself! L&T absolutely deserve it, with them you can trust you are going to get a well executed project.

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## NKVD

Screambowl said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833


hmmm so deal is still on What **** is cooking!!! @SpArK @Abingdonboy


----------



## PARIKRAMA

did somebody made Chu***a out of numbers?
63 became 36???

WTF
what happened to 126+63 --- MMRCA


----------



## ashok mourya

Storm Force said:


> Great news we haveing 36 rafales off the shelf by 2017....
> 
> But want about the 126 mmrca is this Stil happening


By 2017,is it possible to built?


----------



## Cry.me.a.River

ashok mourya said:


> Thats called Hinglish ,the most used Language by Indians.




That is not the point.

PM uses Hindi abroad in order to make a political and cultural point; something which is diluted by using Hinglish.


----------



## nik141991

Ye lo ji ye to chutiya ban gaya 10 saal Kay bad

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## Rau

anubody knows what is production capacity of Rafales??? how much year it will take to get 36 jet............
@kahonapyarhai come body with news.....
just come,........France ready to support India's permanent seat at UN elite group....


----------



## Pulsar

You're late off the blocks! 

It's already discussed here....

India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: | Page 10


----------



## Stephen Cohen

36 is the starting point


----------



## Abingdonboy

Gabriel92 said:


> Modi announced it on tv.
> --


I would like confirmation that 36 is not the final number before I celebrate as it stands 36 is barely a third of the conceived number and not enough at all.


But I am very confident this is just part 1 of any such deal, more are coming.

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## ashok mourya

Cry.me.a.River said:


> That is not the point.
> 
> PM uses Hindi abroad in order to make a political and cultural point; something which is diluted by using Hinglish.


Suddh hindi is not understandable to common Indian.


----------



## anant_s

PM mentions these 36 are for Critical operational readiness and apparently not to be linked with MMRCA negotiations. So two things Rafales are coming here (2 squadrons) and MMRCA is kicking and alive.

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## PurpleButcher

Congrats my indian brothers... finally your wait is over and what about the ToT?

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## Stephen Cohen

Rau said:


> anubody knows what is production capacity of Rafales??? how much year it will take to get 36 jet............
> @kahonapyarhai come body with news.....
> just come,........France ready to support India's permanent seat at UN elite group....



At least FOUR years


----------



## SipahSalar

20 jets bought. Congrats India.


----------



## ashok mourya

Breaking news
No deal on rafele yet.


----------



## Abingdonboy

NKVD said:


> hmmm so deal is still on What **** is cooking!!! @SpArK @Abingdonboy


36 Rafales ASAP, many more to follow later once agreeable terms are met (which will now get a new impetus) and will be made in India.

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## deckingraj

wtf....why so much fog around what is happening......36 is fine but what about so called MMRCA....


----------



## Stephen Cohen

ONLY 36 is NOT ENOUGH 

SO we will make the rest in India


----------



## nair

63?????36?????


----------



## Chanakya's_Chant

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586574390789218304

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586575492309880833

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## Abingdonboy

SipahSalar said:


> 20 jets bought. Congrats India.


Can you even read? Numbers are meant to be universal, 36 becomes 20 now?

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## uparyupari

Funny how 36 was reported as 63

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## Screambowl

Pulsar said:


> You're late off the blocks!
> 
> It's already discussed here....
> 
> India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: | Page 10



MEA posted it again I don't know why. But is it 36 or 63?


----------



## deckingraj

Stephen Cohen said:


> At least FOUR years


with capacity of 2.5 a month i am not sure why you are saying 4 years....2-2.5 years is what looks promising, no??


----------



## ashok mourya

Negotiations will continue between GoG for rafale.


----------



## Matrixx

Great move...we need multirole aircraft asap....cant wait for TOT and other deal....now in 2 years we will have 36 of them rather than nothing till 2020.....


----------



## Abingdonboy

Gabriel92 said:


> I'm sure more batch are being negociated,let's wait!


I am pretty confident about this sir it looks like this 36 could be entirely separate from the 126 MMRCA and are meant to meet the IAF's immediate requirements to buy them some breathing room whilst the issues on the remaining 126 are sorted out.

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## Cry.me.a.River

SamantK said:


> 36 aircraft in flyaway condition. Finally this mmcra is dead




I think it is opposite.

Had it been 63 , there was a high chance of MMRCA being dead as 63 is a sustainable number.

But 36 does not even make economic and operational sense for IAF. There is a very high chance that MMRCA is on but there are some technicalities left to be sorted out. With these 36 aircraft ordered, India could sort out those issues in sweet time.

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## uparyupari

Screambowl said:


> MEA posted it again I don't know why. But is it 36 or 63?



36 confirmed.

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## indianBong

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586574390789218304
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586575492309880833




bro it will like 2 squadron then.... i guess...??

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## Screambowl

arre bhaiya.. is it 36 or 63? 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833


----------



## Juggernautjatt

Abingdonboy said:


> I would like confirmation that 36 is not the final number before I celebrate as it stands 36 is barely a third of the conceived number and not enough at all.
> 
> 
> But I am very confident this is just part 1 of any such deal, more are coming.


Well according to some news channels deal of 36 jets is under changed terms & conditions of MMRCA. I think 36 is not the end of deal.


----------



## MilSpec

This could translate into 200+36 rafales.

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## ashok mourya

Screambowl said:


> arre bhaiya.. is it 36 or 63?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833


Negotiations still on,deal not finalized.


----------



## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> WTF
> what happened to 126+63 --- MMRCA


Looks like the 108 Rafales to be built in India as part of the MMRCA deal is entirely separate to this deal of 36 Rafles (basically 2 Sqns worth) being bought off the shelf.


----------



## SrNair

Perhaps further purchasing is also in pipeline.Otherwise we cant do anything with these 36 fighters.

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## Guynextdoor2

Matrixx said:


> Great move...we need multirole aircraft asap....cant wait for TOT and other deal....now in 2 years we will have 36 of them rather than nothing till 2020.....



how will you get TOT if all planes are made in France?

I wonder if Bhakt think it is a good deal @Rain Man @SarthakGanguly ? No Make in India, no TOT, overall costs higher than before

Now start whitewashing this too...


----------



## kaku1

Gabriel92 said:


> I'm sure more batch are being negociated,let's wait!


No champagne for today.


----------



## utraash

Abingdonboy said:


> I am pretty confident about this sir it looks like this 36 could be entirely separate from the 126 MMRCA and are meant to meet the IAF's immediate requirements to buy them some breathing room whilst the issues on the remaining 126 are sorted out.


I hope you would be right in coming days....


----------



## INDIAPOSITIVE

*India to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France as quickly as possible: PM Modi*

NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday announced that India has requested France to give 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible.

The decision on Rafale jets was among the several agreements reached between the two countries after a meeting of Prime Minister Narendra Modi with French President Francois Hollande.

The two leaders discussed defence, nuclear issues, economy, cultural and educational ties, according to MEA.

France has also agreed to give tourist visas to Indians in 48 hours.

France announced to invest 2 billion euros in India, President Francois Hollande said reading out the joint statement.

France will help India to develop smart cities and has also signed an agreement for a high speed rail line between Delhi and Chandigarh.

PM Modi and French President also released stamps to mark 50 years of India-French cooperation.

After delegation-level talks, several agreements were signed in the presence of the two leaders.

The two countries also signed an agreement on nuclear plant in Jaitapur.

















_(Images: MEA/Twitter)_


_India to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France as quickly as possible: PM Modi - The Times of India_

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## Gandhi follower

India to Buy 36 Rafale Jets in Fly-Away Condition, Announces Prime Minister Narendra Modi in France: Highlights


----------



## Screambowl

ashok mourya said:


> Negotiations still on,deal not finalized.



36 are confirmed, that's why they said ASAP in flyaway condition, rest of them may be part of negotiations?


----------



## Stephen Cohen

deckingraj said:


> with capacity of 2.5 a month i am not sure why you are saying 4 years....2-2.5 years is what looks promising, no??



The ANSWER is EGYPT 

It has placed an order for 24 jets before India


----------



## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> Looks like the 108 Rafales to be built in India as part of the MMRCA deal is entirely separate to this deal of 36 Rafles (basically 2 Sqns worth) being bought off the shelf.



Is that what they are saying? How come OP is not mentioning that? If so, I'm ok.


----------



## Cry.me.a.River

ashok mourya said:


> Suddh hindi is not understandable to common Indian.




Again not the point. Speaking in suddh Hindi is a cultural/political posturing. Most of Indians at high posts could speak fluent English + many other languages (though Modi could be an exception to that).It has little relation with ease of understanding. 

Even many BJP spokesperson speak in chaste Hindi just to troll Newstraders.


----------



## SR-91

uparyupari said:


> Funny how 36 was reported as 63




Like @Abingdonboy said, This is just part 1, chapter 1 of this book. It will be ordered in batches. Stay tuned, More detail will come out in few days time.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

*India to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France as quickly as possible: PM Modi*

NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday announced that India has requested France to give 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible.

The decision on Rafale jets was among the several agreements reached between the two countries after a meeting of Prime Minister Narendra Modi with French President Francois Hollande.

The two leaders discussed defence, nuclear issues, economy, cultural and educational ties, according to MEA.

France has also agreed to give tourist visas to Indians in 48 hours.

France announced to invest 2 billion euros in India, President Francois Hollande said reading out the joint statement.

France will help India to develop smart cities and has also signed an agreement for a high speed rail line between Delhi and Chandigarh.

PM Modi and French President also released stamps to mark 50 years of India-French cooperation.

After delegation-level talks, several agreements were signed in the presence of the two leaders.

The two countries also signed an agreement on nuclear plant in Jaitapur.


















_(Images: MEA/Twitter)_


_India to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France as quickly as possible: PM Modi - The Times of India_


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist* @livefist · 3m3 minutes ago
So @Dassault_OnAir, which was to build 18 Rafales under the MMRCA, now gets to build at least 36. Boost for French jobs. RIP MMRCA?






*Livefist* @livefist · 7m7 minutes ago
Squadron and a half?


----------



## Abingdonboy

MilSpec said:


> This could translate into 200+36 rafales.


My thoughts exactly- 36+126+63 (225)

OR

36+108+63 (207)


----------



## Tridibans

anant_s said:


> PM mentions these 36 are for Critical operational readiness and apparently not to be linked with MMRCA negotiations. So two things Rafales are coming here (2 squadrons) and MMRCA is kicking and alive.
> View attachment 213854




Why did you change BC to fanboys

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## Pichkari

I think we dont have the amount this financial year and deal was getting delayed as well.So india has ordered 36 jets quickly till the deal gets sorted out.


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## deckingraj

Stephen Cohen said:


> The ANSWER is EGYPT
> 
> It has placed an order for 24 jets before India


well that is soft loan and here hard cash...also this is govt to govt deal....what do you think??


----------



## uparyupari

Cry.me.a.River said:


> I think it is opposite.
> 
> Had it been 63 , there was a high chance of MMRCA being dead as 63 is a sustainable number.
> 
> But 36 does not even make economic and operational sense for IAF. There is a very high chance that MMRCA is on but there are some technicalities left to be sorted out. With these 36 aircraft ordered, India could sort out those issues in sweet time.



1 squadron of IAF has 18 aircraft's. So 36 is 2 squadron. It makes perfect operational sense. 

Dassalut was originally supposed to build on 18, so if they are building 36, it could very well mean no more MMRCA.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Guynextdoor2 said:


> how will you get TOT if all planes are made in France?
> 
> I wonder if Bhakt think it is a good deal @Rain Man @SarthakGanguly ? No Make in India, no TOT, overall costs higher than before
> 
> Now start whitewashing this too...



36 in fly away condition 
REST to be made in India

EVERY BODY knows that IAF's requirements are much more than 36 
IAF wants 126 planes 

So how will it be happy with 36 alone


----------



## Georgeclark

Gabriel you never posted the Voila picture  damn you


----------



## anant_s

Tridibans said:


> Why did you change BC to fanboys


This is a family page u know mate

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## magudi

So mmrca is dead right?


----------



## Stephen Cohen

uparyupari said:


> 1 squadron of IAF has 18 aircraft's. So 36 is 2 squadron. It makes perfect operational sense.
> 
> Dassalut was originally supposed to build on 18, so if they are building 36, it could very well mean no more MMRCA.



IAF's requirement is clearly 126 

So 36 is a PALTRY amount ; not enough at all


----------



## Matrixx

Guynextdoor2 said:


> how will you get TOT if all planes are made in France?
> 
> I wonder if Bhakt think it is a good deal @Rain Man @SarthakGanguly ? No Make in India, no TOT, overall costs higher than before
> 
> Now start whitewashing this too...


36 is not all.... 126 is all.....what congress did last 3 years...Mr Modi hater

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Looks like the 108 Rafales to be built in India as part of the MMRCA deal is entirely separate to this deal of 36 Rafles (basically 2 Sqns worth) being bought off the shelf.


So is that what i can infer
MMRCA 126 (18+108HAL) +63 follow on (possibly)
+

36 flyaway

grand total *225 Rafales ??*


----------



## ashok mourya

Screambowl said:


> 36 are confirmed, that's why they said ASAP in flyaway condition, rest of them may be part of negotiations?


But deal not signed in today's meeting.Negotiations will continue between official of both the nations.


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## Matrixx

Stephen Cohen said:


> IAF's requirement is clearly 126
> 
> So 36 is a PALTRY amount ; not enough at all


you mean all or nothing


----------



## lightoftruth

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792

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## Abingdonboy

Juggernautjatt said:


> Well according to some news channels deal of 36 jets is under changed terms & conditions of MMRCA. I think 36 is not the end of deal.


I am almost certain this is not the end of the deal. Had it been 63 then that is a possibility (see Mirage 2000 and MiG-29B purchases by the IAF) but 36 is far too few for this to be the final amount the IAF will fly- it just wouldn't be worth the effort for such few numbers.



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Livefist* @livefist · 3m3 minutes ago
> So @Dassault_OnAir, which was to build 18 Rafales under the MMRCA, now gets to build at least 36. Boost for French jobs. RIP MMRCA?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Livefist* @livefist · 7m7 minutes ago
> Squadron and a half?


Is he slow or something? "RIP MMRCA" over a 36 Rafale purchase, this is just dumb. 


And since when does an IAF fighter squadron consist of 14 planes? 36 is exactly 2 Sqns worth (18+18).

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## uparyupari

SR-91 said:


> Like @Abingdonboy said, This is just part 1, chapter 1 of this book. It will be ordered in batches. Stay tuned, More detail will come out in few days time.



Not necessarily true. 

Why would India agree to let Dassault build 36 instead of 18 ? is it rewarding Dassault for screwing us ? 

If the price and terms of building more is not decided, again why reward Dassault with 36 aircrafts ? 

It does not make sense. 

IT will make more sense if IAF is being mollified with 2 squadrons and the rest will be filled up by MKI and LCA.


----------



## Screambowl

ashok mourya said:


> But deal not signed in today's meeting.Negotiations will continue between official of both the nations.



that means 36 will come not ASAP?


----------



## magudi

So mmrca is dead right?


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## Guynextdoor2

PARIKRAMA said:


> So is that what i can infer
> MMRCA 126 (18+108HAL) +63 follow on (possibly)
> +
> 
> 36 flyaway
> 
> grand total *225 Rafales ??*



then why is OP saying MRCA deal off?


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## SuperSubrayan

Where is my Bro @The_Sidewinder .... 



indianBong said:


> bro it will like 2 squadron then.... i guess...??


Yup 18 each . 

And why I get an impression that additional jets will be made in India ? 

Am just guessing . No source to back my claim . Modi ji would have gone for it as stop gab solution . As negotiations for ToT will take more time. 

And now we have more time to negotiate . If that's the what in his mind then it's a Master Stroke move

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## Donatello

Umm, wait, unless i got that wrong, Isn't India changing the RFP rules itself now.....they wanted 18 in flyaway condition (original tender, regardless of which aircraft was selected) and rest by HAL....seems like even Modi has realized that they were demanding too much.....or expecting too much.

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## SR-91

We are not sure of the Final numbers of Rafale, IAF will induct, but we know for sure now, India's IAF will get the RAFALE fighter jets.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist* @livefist · 14s14 seconds ago
Livefist retweeted EconomicTimes

Aha. 

Livefist added,

*EconomicTimes* @EconomicTimes
India’s purchase of 36 Rafale jets is separate from ongoing talks on bigger order - defence official (Reuters India)

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## deckingraj

ashok mourya said:


> But deal not signed in today's meeting.Negotiations will continue between official of both the nations.


yup..however a bit quicker and final...Modi is after this 36 which means that finally GOI has got some brains and have understood the gravity of situation IAF is facing...


----------



## anant_s

> (Reuters) - India will purchase 36 of Dassault Aviation's French-manufactured Rafale fighter jets, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said on Friday during a visit to Paris.
> 
> The terms and conditions of the contract have yet to be finalised, Modi said at a joint press conference with French President Francois Hollande.


India to buy 36 French-made Rafale jets: PM Modi| Reuters


----------



## uparyupari

Stephen Cohen said:


> IAF's requirement is clearly 126
> 
> So 36 is a PALTRY amount ; not enough at all



IAF urgent requirement was for 36. That is being met now. 

I am going to guess a different aircraft will address its other needs.

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## ashok mourya

Screambowl said:


> that means 36 will come not ASAP?


 I think so.


----------



## Screambowl

lightoftruth said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792



it's 126 +36


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## 9%GDP_Growth

Matrixx said:


> 36 is not all.... 126 is all.....what congress did last 3 years...Mr Modi hater


..just leave the AAParasites....alone...they are good for nothing and won't let anybody doo anythingh..
Raste ke Patthar...

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## ACE OF THE AIR

From 126 to 36 

atleast 6 is common.


----------



## Chanakya's_Chant

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792

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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> I would like confirmation that 36 is not the final number before I celebrate as it stands 36 is barely a third of the conceived number and not enough at all.
> 
> 
> But I am very confident this is just part 1 of any such deal, more are coming.


This is a separate FMS styled Govt to Govt deal, with MMRCA negotiations still carrying forward.

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## ashok mourya

Nayo pe charchake baad dekhte hain.finally kya niklta hai.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Is that what they are saying? How come OP is not mentioning that? If so, I'm ok.


Let's wait for more details to come out sir (hey if I get called this so are you  ) had the order been for 63 then I would have been more pessimistic given no further information has flown vis a vis follow on orders but at only 36 units order there is simply no way this is the end of the story and did you notice Modi mentioned "Make in India" when talking about the Rafale deal? 

There are more coming.....

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## SuperSubrayan

@sancho @Oscar your view on this new deal ? Looks like by 2017 is the dead line for all 36 in fly away conditions from France


----------



## indianBong

SuperSubrayan said:


> Where is my Bro @The_Sidewinder ....
> 
> 
> Yup 18 each .
> 
> And why I get an impression that additional jets will be made in India ?
> 
> Am just guessing . No source to back my claim . Modi ji would have gone for it as stop gab solution . As negotiations for ToT will take more time.
> 
> And now we have more time to negotiate . If that's the what in his mind then it's a Master Stroke move



i guess the same..... it will give govt/DoD more time to negotiate..... as this deal is already 4years late and govt is under pressure... this buying is to release the pressure...

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## ashok mourya

9%GDP_Growth said:


> ..just leave the AAParasites....alone...they are good for nothing and won't let anybody doo anythingh..
> Raste ke Patthar...


Wow what a nice profile name....to burn aptards and khungressi....


----------



## Abingdonboy

MilSpec said:


> This is a separate FMS styled Govt to Govt deal, with MMRCA negotiations still carrying forward.


I am of the same mind sir

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## Bornubus

Could be 36 + 90 = 126 ,as 36 being off the shelf anyway great achievement on defence procurement .... Since Boss became PM

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## Stephen Cohen

36 is a teaser trailer 

The IAF will put in enormous investment in creating the RAFALE infrastructure

And 36 is just not enough

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## Cry.me.a.River

uparyupari said:


> 1 squadron of IAF has 18 aircraft's. So 36 is 2 squadron. It makes perfect operational sense.
> 
> Dassalut was originally supposed to build on 18, so if they are building 36, it could very well mean no more MMRCA.




36 unique jets would not make operational sense because they would noy justift the cost that would be sunk in establishing their maintenance, training, and spare stockpile.

IAF already suffers from curse of plenty. It is probably only major airforce fielding 3 or more frontline fighters. Had it been an Airline, it would have gone bankrupt long ago.

Addition of 36 Rafaels would be more of a burden than respite. That's why I think that MMRCA is still on though now India would have a greater breathing space to haggle with French on technology transfer and Price.

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## Pichkari

uparyupari said:


> Not necessarily true.
> 
> Why would India agree to let Dassault build 36 instead of 18 ? is it rewarding Dassault for screwing us ?
> 
> If the price and terms of building more is not decided, again why reward Dassault with 36 aircrafts ?
> 
> It does not make sense.
> 
> IT will make more sense if IAF is being mollified with 2 squadrons and the rest will be filled up by MKI and LCA.



He said in the speech that this is under a seperate deal,meaning not related to mmrca.

It dosent make sense to simply induct 36 new aircrafts which have no operational base in iaf [SPECIALLY WHEN THE REQUIREMENT IS 126+]
IF IT WAS 63 aircrafts i would have believed that the deal could be dead.
But with 36 .....no way

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## Matrixx

Abingdonboy said:


> My thoughts exactly- 36+126+63 (225)
> 
> OR
> 
> 36+108+63 (207)


it could be 36 +90 (126)


----------



## T90TankGuy

No deal . the press meet is over.


----------



## 9%GDP_Growth

uparyupari said:


> IAF urgent requirement was for 36. That is being met now.
> 
> I am going to guess a different aircraft will address its other needs.


..I too is getting the same hunch..Su-35 ???


----------



## Juggernautjatt

Abingdonboy said:


> I am almost certain this is not the end of the deal. Had it been 63 then that is a possibility (see Mirage 2000 and MiG-29B purchases by the IAF) but 36 is far too few for this to be the final amount the IAF will fly- it just wouldn't be worth the effort for such few numbers.


Surely it is just a stop gap arrangement for fast reducing strength of IAF & I think they will continue negotiations for rest of 90 jets under make in India scheme.

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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> I am of the same mind sir


Bhai, for the 17th time , no "sir"

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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> Let's wait for more details to come out sir (hey if I get called this so are you  ) had the order been for 63 then I would have been more pessimistic given no further information has flown vis a vis follow on orders but at only 36 units order there is simply no way this is the end of the story and did you notice Modi mentioned "Make in India" when talking about the Rafale deal?
> 
> There are more coming.....



Make in India with 36 will be just a publicity stunt. But with 80+, then a great deal without HAL, decent deal with HAL.


----------



## Screambowl

what i just want to conclude is.. 

this deal + MMRCA = 126 +36 = *162* aircrafts in total?


----------



## Abingdonboy

Bornubus said:


> Could be 36 + 90 = 126 ,as 36 being off the shelf


IF Rafales are going to built in India the 108 figure is set in stone- this is the figure HAL and Dassualt have been working to for the past three years, cut the order to 90 and the local content of the Rafales will go down, the costs of the ones built in India will go up and the return on investment for setting up of the Rafale production line in India will be less also.

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## Matrixx

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Livefist* @livefist · 14s14 seconds ago
> Livefist retweeted EconomicTimes
> 
> Aha.
> 
> Livefist added,
> 
> *EconomicTimes* @EconomicTimes
> India’s purchase of 36 Rafale jets is separate from ongoing talks on bigger order - defence official (Reuters India)


wow

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## Stephen Cohen

While we are splitting hairs MODI' S BOAT RIDE HAS BEGUN


----------



## SR-91

uparyupari said:


> Not necessarily true.
> 
> Why would India agree to let Dassault build 36 instead of 18 ? is it rewarding Dassault for screwing us ?
> 
> If the price and terms of building more is not decided, again why reward Dassault with 36 aircrafts ?
> 
> It does not make sense.
> 
> IT will make more sense if IAF is being mollified with 2 squadrons and the rest will be filled up by MKI and LCA.





You are getting this all wrong, this deal is part of "Optional package", back end of this contract. They are still negotiating 126 Rafale contract, The bigger contract or "Mother of all defence deals".


----------



## uparyupari

Cry.me.a.River said:


> 36 unique jets would not make operational sense because they would noy justift the cost that would be sunk in establishing their maintenance, training, and spare stockpile.
> 
> IAF already suffers from curse of plenty. It is probably only major airforce fielding 3 or more frontline fighters. Had it been an Airline, it would have gone bankrupt long ago.
> 
> Addition of 36 Rafaels would be more of a burden than respite. That's why I think that MMRCA is still on though now India would have a greater breathing space to haggle with French on technology transfer and Price.



On the contrary it removes our breathing space to haggle. 

Dasasult now has us on the hook. They just have to reel us in slowly. That is why it is a strange way to negotiate.


----------



## lightoftruth

Screambowl said:


> it's 126 +36


or The rest(90) of is under negotiation.


----------



## anant_s

Guynextdoor2 said:


> then why is OP saying MRCA deal off?


That certainly is not true, infact MMRCA is alive and kicking. These 36 planes must be looked separate from ongoing negotiations. One clipping (on NDTV) showed that France has offered_ Attractive offer_ for off the shelf deal and importantly these planes are being purchased on Govt. to Govt basis, so prices are going to be different (significantly lower i assume).

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## Basel

At least now India is getting some MMRCA finalist jets although few in numbers. 

Congrats to India.


----------



## Chanakya's_Chant

It seems the MMRCA deal is still alive! 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792

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## uparyupari

9%GDP_Growth said:


> ..I too is getting the same hunch..Su-35 ???



For now let us enjoy purchase of 36 Rafale

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## a.kumar

36 doesn't make sense . they can only be Two possibilities now , India gets 36 and orders few more after few years and buys additional Su30 . Second possibility could be 36 + MMRCA contract which might be executed after few years .


----------



## Abingdonboy

@MilSpec @Guynextdoor2 



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Livefist* @livefist · 14s14 seconds ago
> Livefist retweeted EconomicTimes
> 
> Aha.
> 
> Livefist added,
> 
> *EconomicTimes* @EconomicTimes
> India’s purchase of 36 Rafale jets is separate from ongoing talks on bigger order - defence official (Reuters India)


Gentlemen   

(and ladies of course)

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## Stephen Cohen

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Make in India with 36 will be just a publicity stunt.



If Rafale is made in India then it must be close to 100 jets 
to JUSTIFY the huge investment


----------



## SrNair

Indians .So it seems we got another Su30MKI deal.36 is just a temporary adjustment.
I can say without any doubt.Only proof you should check s that Rafale deal with Egypt.5 billion $ deal for just 24 planes.

Here our French friends agreed 36 for 4 billion$.Means further negotiation of MMRCA is possible.


----------



## PARIKRAMA



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## SuperSubrayan

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792



Lolz Bang On !!! As I suspected 



indianBong said:


> i guess the same..... it will give govt/DoD more time to negotiate..... as this deal is already 4years late and govt is under pressure... this buying is to release the pressure...


For sure !!! Now no need hurry as if we want we can go for another batch if Russians failed to get serious about fgfa/pasta

I guess french must have conveyed that's it's impossible to deliver 60+ in short period of time (2017) . They have already committed to Egypt as well . They must be working to increase their production rate to have next batch of 32 very soon.

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## Abingdonboy

9%GDP_Growth said:


> ..I too is getting the same hunch..Su-35 ???


lol no, any hope the Russians had of the Su-35 getting the nod were dashed about half an hour ago, Rafale all the way now.....


----------



## Matrixx

lightoftruth said:


> or The rest(90) of is under negotiation.


Looks like 36 Rafale are just appetizer....... main course will be 126 Rafale

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## uparyupari

SR-91 said:


> You are getting this all wrong, this deal is part of "Optional package", back end of this contract. They are still negotiating 126 Rafale contract, The bigger contract or "Mother of all defence deals".



Lets see how it all pans out. I hope the price is know soon. That is always the key and will tell us how the deal is going down.


----------



## Pichkari

SrNair said:


> Indians .So it seems we got another Su30MKI deal.36 is just a temporary adjustment.
> I can say without any doubt.Only proof you should check s that Rafale deal with Egypt.5 billion $ deal for just 24 planes.
> 
> Here our French friends agreed 36 for 4 billion$.Means further negotiation of MMRCA is possible.



That figure for Egypt includes a navalvessel and MICA missile package.


----------



## magudi

Wonder what's going on through our erstwhile DM saint Antony's mind right now


----------



## uparyupari

SrNair said:


> Indians .So it seems we got another Su30MKI deal.36 is just a temporary adjustment.
> I can say without any doubt.Only proof you should check s that Rafale deal with Egypt.5 billion $ deal for just 24 planes.
> 
> Here our French friends agreed 36 for 4 billion$.Means further negotiation of MMRCA is possible.



Egypt deal included missiles, spare, training, support etc..


----------



## Abingdonboy

Basel said:


> At least now India is getting some MMRCA finalist jets although few in numbers.
> 
> Congrats to India.










36 is just the start.....

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## Stephen Cohen

Donatello said:


> Umm, wait, unless i got that wrong, Isn't India changing the RFP rules itself now.....they wanted 18 in flyaway condition (original tender, regardless of which aircraft was selected) and rest by HAL....seems like even Modi has realized that they were demanding too much.....or expecting too much.



The planes to be made in India will come later ;at least 100 to be made in India
this 36 plane INTIAL order is to solve the problem caused by delays


----------



## 9%GDP_Growth

Abingdonboy said:


> lol no, any hope the Russians had of the Su-35 getting the nod were dashed about half an hour ago, Rafale all the way now.....


..only 36 announced..no news for others...U can expect teh unexpected from Modi..


----------



## anant_s

Matrixx said:


> Looks like 36 Rafale are just appetizer....... main course will be 126 Rafale


& then some more for Dessert too!

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## SR-91

For those who wants to watch Modi's announcement. watch from 14mins


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## 9%GDP_Growth

magudi said:


> Wonder what's going on through our erstwhile DM saint Antony's mind right now


..will die of heart attack...
..or sonia will kill him..missed the kickbacks...


----------



## Abingdonboy

SrNair said:


> Indians .So it seems we got another Su30MKI deal.36 is just a temporary adjustment.
> I can say without any doubt.Only proof you should check s that Rafale deal with Egypt.5 billion $ deal for just 24 planes.
> 
> Here our French friends agreed 36 for 4 billion$.Means further negotiation of MMRCA is possible.


Egypt's deal was VERY dubious and shady- a soft loans used, FrAF inventory, Frigates sold as part of the deal etc etc it is just impossible to compare that deal with any other especially not the IAF's (perhaps that was the intention?).


----------



## lightoftruth

Matrixx said:


> Looks like 36 Rafale are just appetizer....... main course will be 126 Rafale


Anyway this has assured that rafale are coming to IAF in a significant number whatever no be the larger order, other drama has ended.

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## Cry.me.a.River

Guynextdoor2 said:


> how will you get TOT if all planes are made in France?
> 
> I wonder if Bhakt think it is a good deal @Rain Man @SarthakGanguly ? No Make in India, no TOT, overall costs higher than before
> 
> Now start whitewashing this too...




This is a stop gap purchase which would fill shortfall in squadron strength that would occur due to retirement of Mig-27 in 2016-17.




Abingdonboy said:


> My thoughts exactly- 36+126+63 (225)
> 
> OR
> 
> 36+108+63 (207)




I think that option of 63 would not be exercised. At least not now.

While 36 is too low hence GoI would certainly buy more, but in wake of LCA-Mk II and AMCA project, 225 would not make sense specially when delivery of such a large order would finish in mid 20's.


----------



## Sargodhian_Eagle

SrNair said:


> Indians .So it seems we got another Su30MKI deal.36 is just a temporary adjustment.
> I can say without any doubt.Only proof you should check s that Rafale deal with Egypt.5 billion $ deal for just 24 planes.
> 
> Here our French friends agreed 36 for 4 billion$.Means further negotiation of MMRCA is possible.


Frenches have long pockets. Their hardware is always expensive. If you look on IAF Mirage 2000 upgrade deal, you will cry.


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## Abingdonboy

9%GDP_Growth said:


> ..only 36 announced..no news for others...U can expect teh unexpected from Modi..


By signing for 36 Modi has confirmed the IAF is going for the Rafale and in large numbers but he has, thankfully, bought the IAF some breathing space as the contract for the larger and more complicated Rafale deal is worked out. 

It is now simply out of the question of yet ANOTHER fighter type (Su-35) now entering the IAF although I suspect there will still be many coming up with all sorts of exotic alternatives to the Rafale just for the sake of it.....

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Donatello

Stephen Cohen said:


> The planes to be made in India will come later ;at least 100 to be made in India
> this 36 plane INTIAL order is to solve the problem caused by delays



Okay...ummm.....but what about all those who were saying Dassault cannot go away from the RFP terms which clearly (apparently) stated that only first 18 to be made by Dassault and rest in India? That's akin to changing the contract.....like moving a goal post.


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## ArsalanKhan21

Looks like numbers of Rafale that India is buying keeps dropipng by half with every new news ! From 126 to 62 and now 36. Next number in this sequence is 18 then 9!!


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## ni8mare

its 36 (now)+ 126(mmrca) +XX(future)


Donatello said:


> Umm, wait, unless i got that wrong, Isn't India changing the RFP rules itself now.....they wanted 18 in flyaway condition (original tender, regardless of which aircraft was selected) and rest by HAL....seems like even Modi has realized that they were demanding too much.....or expecting too much.


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## heisenberg

Abingdonboy said:


> I am pretty confident about this sir it looks like this 36 could be entirely separate from the 126 MMRCA and are meant to meet the IAF's immediate requirements to buy them some breathing room whilst the issues on the remaining 126 are sorted out.


IMO this 36 rafale is not part of MMRCA deal..Modi may be thinking of Russian jets for that..but 2 squadrons of Rafale are sufficient. India is getting these jets on fly-away condition-an excellent idea keeping in mind TOT will put presssure on HAL and delays are expected.


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## 9%GDP_Growth

Abingdonboy said:


> By signing for 36 Modi has confirmed the IAF is going for the Rafale and in large numbers but he has, thankfully, bought the IAF some breathing space as the contract for the larger and more complicated Rafale deal is worked out.
> 
> It is now simply out of the question of yet ANOTHER fighter type (Su-35) now entering the IAF although I suspect there will still be many coming up with all sorts of exotic alternatives to the Rafale just for the sake of it.....


...won't this be a bad bargaining practice to buy somethingh with expection of the seller will give discount on the remaining part of deal, when the buyer is at mercy...and has put itself in single vendor case...??


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## SR-91

This will go the way of SU-30MKI. Ordered in batches.


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## nair

I get a feeling that it is token order........Now that it is decided that we are going to buy Rafale....But i really fail to understand why we cant go ahead with the original order.........or if i could ask What is holding Goi signing the whole deal..... The good news is it is off the shelf......wonder how the rest 90 going to be delivered (if we are buying it)


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## kaku1

Donatello said:


> Okay...ummm.....but what about all those who were saying Dassault cannot go away from the RFP terms which clearly (apparently) stated that only first 18 to be made by Dassault and rest in India? That's akin to changing the contract.....like moving a goal post.


Both contracts are different,, 

MMRCA is still under negotiation, as usual. Reuters Reported.


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## Stephen Cohen

magudi said:


> Wonder what's going on through our erstwhile DM saint Antony's mind right now



He is kicking himself ; he could have done the same

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## Indo-guy

Abingdonboy said:


> Let's wait for more details to come out sir (hey if I get called this so are you  ) had the order been for 63 then I would have been more pessimistic given no further information has flown vis a vis follow on orders but at only 36 units order there is simply no way this is the end of the story and did you notice Modi mentioned "Make in India" when talking about the Rafale deal?
> 
> There are more coming.....



are we not losing bargaining tactic ...by agreeing to 36 jets before closing the deal ?

I think we have tied ourselves in knots by agreeing to this before closing the deal ....

this will only embolden Dassault to hard bargain later ....


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## browser

Time to dump HAL and give the assembly contract to the private sector.

ToT is nothing more than getting the technical specs. If a manufacturing base does not exist, it amounts to nothing.

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## Matrixx

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Looks like numbers of Rafale that India is buying keeps dropipng by half with every new news ! From 126 to 62 and now 36. Next number in this sequence is 18 then 9!!


FYI...it is 36 extra Rafale....plus 126 Rafale....India is not fool to buy 36 only...that make no sense...

Modi is smart guy ....he is asking for 36 on urgent basis...


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## SrNair

@Abingdonboy @nair @NKVD .So my source was correct after all .Look deal is signed

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## nik141991

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Looks like numbers of Rafale that India is buying keeps dropipng by half with every new news ! From 126 to 62 and now 36. Next number in this sequence is 18 then 9!!


Even 18 are enough to give PAF sleepless nights

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## Screambowl

so its 126 + 36=* 162 *


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## SR-91

Watch Modi speak in France @13.30 mins.

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## IndianView

I AM COMING.

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## Guynextdoor2

magudi said:


> Wonder what's going on through our erstwhile DM saint Antony's mind right now



That his decision is validated by the new govt 

On another note @Abingdonboy we'll now have to see what Subramania Swamy has to say about this

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## ranjeet

NDTV confirms that this deal is about 144 Rafale for India 36 off the shelf and others will be made in India.

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## anant_s

Abingdonboy said:


> By signing for 36 Modi has confirmed the IAF is going for the Rafale and in large numbers but he has, thankfully, bought the IAF some breathing space as the contract for the larger and more complicated Rafale deal is worked out.
> 
> It is now simply out of the question of yet ANOTHER fighter type (Su-35) now entering the IAF although I suspect there will still be many coming up with all sorts of exotic alternatives to the Rafale just for the sake of it.....



It confirms the faith IAF put in Rafale and therefore the number does not matter much at this stage. More rafale will come, its only a matter of time, We can trust our PM not to waste almost USD 4 billion on 2 squadrons just to keep a nation happy.
Also looks like recent remarks by DM (regarding getting more MKIs in lieu of rafale) was just a poker bluff. Rafale is Plan A, B and C.
PS: @DrSomnath999 Where are you doc? Time to rejoice!!

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## nair

SrNair said:


> @Abingdonboy @nair @NKVD .So my source was correct after all .Look deal is signed



36..... .Too less for our requirement...... Hope there is discussion for rest 90

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## SrNair

@waz Can you merge all of these threads .


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## Stephen Cohen

9%GDP_Growth said:


> .will die of heart attack...
> ..or sonia will kill him..missed the kickbacks...



Exactly Sonia ; manmohan and Antony missed this SMART IDEA 

They too could have ordered it way back in 2012


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## Abingdonboy

Cry.me.a.River said:


> While 36 is too low hence GoI would certainly buy more, but in wake of LCA-Mk II and AMCA project, 225 would not make sense specially when delivery of such a large order would finish in mid 20's.


Not sure about that logic, through the 36+108+63/36+126+63 route the IAF can have 207-225 of cutting edge 4.5++ yen fighters in service by 2025, the AMCA will (at best) be in the middle of its flight test program by then and around 50-60+ LCA Mk.2 will be in service but the latter is irrelevant as it is not a Rafale substitute. Money is not an issue, it is about doctrine and meeting force levels, if it looks like the FGFA is not going to be in service in large numbers by the middle of the next decade then the 225 figure is likely- in fact it might come regardless of what happens with the FGFA the IAF is that desperate for fighters.


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## magudi

Guynextdoor2 said:


> * That his decision is validated by the new govt *
> 
> On another note @Abingdonboy we'll now have to see what Subramania Swamy has to say about this




This is precisely why i posed the question, i knew you'd cheerlead

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## Donatello

Mods please merged all the threads....too much speculation.

@Oscar @waz @Jungibaaz @Irfan Baloch @Horus


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## Paranoid Android




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## Paranoid Android



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## kaykay

As per economic times, this is a new deal while mmrca deal will also stay. So in total India is getting 36+126 Rafales i.e 9 squadrons.


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## Guynextdoor2

nair said:


> I get a feeling that it is token order........Now that it is decided that we are going to buy Rafale....But i really fail to understand why we cant go ahead with the original order.........or if i could ask What is holding Goi signing the whole deal..... The good news is it is off the shelf......wonder how the rest 90 going to be delivered (if we are buying it)



I'm wondering too. Since we've given them the upper hand no significant discounts will come anyway, so just be done with it and move ahead. If they brig in another platform, that would be just lame.



magudi said:


> This is precisely why i posed the question, i knew you'd cheerlead



You got issues man.....


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## magudi

Indo-guy said:


> are we not losing bargaining tactic ...by agreeing to 36 jets before closing the deal ?
> 
> I think we have tied ourselves in knots by agreeing to this before closing the deal ....
> 
> this will only embolden Dassault to hard bargain later ....




Like we had any other choice 

Bargaining has been going on for years now, tells lot about our Bargaining efficacy ain't it


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## nik141991

Deal is for 144 ?

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## Pichkari

vishu som from ndtv just said that the original deal ad option for 18 in fly away and 108 to be made in india.
Now its 36 as quickly as possible and 108 to be made in india for which negotiaitons are on. So deal not dead and total =144

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## 9%GDP_Growth

Indo-guy said:


> are we not losing bargaining tactic ...by agreeing to 36 jets before closing the deal ?
> 
> I think we have tied ourselves in knots by agreeing to this before closing the deal ....
> 
> this will only embolden Dassault to hard bargain later ....


..I too have the same point...
..Modi is intillegent enough not to put himself in the situation...
..he must be having a different idea...for the remaining numbers..


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## Matrixx

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> From 126 to 36
> 
> atleast 6 is common.


Its is 36 + 126.....6 is still common......mind it


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## Water Car Engineer

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Looks like numbers of Rafale that India is buying keeps dropipng by half with every new news ! From 126 to 62 and now 36. Next number in this sequence is 18 then 9!!




No, it's actually seems like it's 36+. From what I understand from sources, this is a separate deal for 36 Rafales needed ASAP by the IAF, all the while the original MMRCA deal is being ironed out.


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## magudi

anant_s said:


> It confirms the faith IAF put in Rafale and therefore the number does not matter much at this stage. More rafale will come, its only a matter of time, We can trust our PM not to waste almost USD 4 billion on 2 squadrons just to keep a nation happy.
> Also looks like recent remarks by DM (regarding getting more MKIs in lieu of rafale) was just a poker bluff. Rafale is Plan A, B and C.
> PS: @DrSomnath999 Where are you doc? Time to rejoice!!




Do we have to wait till PM is back from tour for more details on this stuff? Is anyone going to take questions from media? 
Nobody has yet uttered a single word about mmrca


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## nair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I'm wondering too. Since we've given them the upper hand no significant discounts will come anyway, so just be done with it and move ahead. If they brig in another platform, that would be just lame.



Another Platform???? No way!!!!!!...... PM did not speak clearly on the deal..... He just said, Give me 36 jets As soon as possible.........


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## asquare

Indo-guy said:


> are we not losing bargaining tactic ...by agreeing to 36 jets before closing the deal ?
> 
> I think we have tied ourselves in knots by agreeing to this before closing the deal ....
> 
> this will only embolden Dassault to hard bargain later ....



My guess is that most of the details on the balance 108 to be built in India have already been worked out, hence this announcement. The 18 extra in fly away condition might have been Dassault's price for agree to provide guarantees on the HAL built Rafales.


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## ranjeet

nik141991 said:


> Deal is for 144 ?


yeah so that no 4 foreign fighters can come together in India.

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## utraash

This news made my day.... Aaaaahhhhhhh......
All hail to acumen of Parikkar, PM Saab n don't forget IAF pressure tactics .... 
Btw at least now ppl would stop opening thread with title "Mother of all deal".......

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## Stephen Cohen

magudi said:


> Like we had any other choice
> 
> Bargaining has been going on for years now, tells lot about our Bargaining efficacy ain't it



The Deal is just TOO complex it needs more finetuning

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## Guynextdoor2

nair said:


> Another Platform???? No way!!!!!!...... PM did not speak clearly on the deal..... He just said, Give me 36 jets As soon as possible.........



well I don't expect it to happen

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Matrixx said:


> Its is 36 + 126.....6 is still common......mind it


Its a numbers game

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## ashok mourya

Liability clause is the main reason for delay in deal. Rafale not agreeing for these clauses.


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## nair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> well I don't expect it to happen



I expect it to happen.......You cant have one more platform...... Additional su 30 is not the option


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## anant_s

nair said:


> I get a feeling that it is token order........Now that it is decided that we are going to buy Rafale....But i really fail to understand why we cant go ahead with the original order.........or if i could ask What is holding Goi signing the whole deal..... The good news is it is off the shelf......wonder how the rest 90 going to be delivered (if we are buying it)


Sir we can look at the situation in another way.
It could be that Government is now completely convinced that Rafale is the only way forward but given the messy condition of contract how to move, without causing any CAG concern or scrutiny. 
The most logical (& perhaps the only) way is G2G deal. 
Let us hypothetically assume the negotiations further linger on, there is always an option to place fresh orders and ask Dassault to bring in manufacturing here in India with private players bypassing HAL as whole. Deliveries will be faster and this will compensate for the time lost in protracted negotiations allowing IAF a flexibility in retiring fighters it is forced to fly.


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## Stephen Cohen

Guynextdoor2 said:


> well I don't expect it to happen



What if Saint Antony had done the same 

WOULD you have trusted him then 

We can LINK the final signature on NUCLEAR DEAL with MMRCA 

BOTH Together or Nothing

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## magudi

Water Car Engineer said:


> No, it's actually seems like it's 36+. From what I understand from sources, this is a separate deal for 36 Rafales needed ASAP by the IAF, all the while the original MMRCA deal is being ironed out.




Epic 

So it addresses immediate fleet concerns also affirms without doubts that rafale is the way forward 

I'd say good call by MOD


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## SR-91

Modi said in his speech that this is separate from the deal being negotiated.
watch from 13.30

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## Guynextdoor2

nair said:


> I expect it to happen.......You cant have one more platform...... Additional su 30 is not the option



That would be incredibly lame, instead of lowest total cost, it'll be among the highest total cost options.


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## nair

anant_s said:


> Sir we can look at the situation in another way.
> It could be that Government is now completely convinced that Rafale is the only way forward but given the messy condition of contract how to move, without causing any CAG concern or scrutiny.
> The most logical (& perhaps the only) way is G2G deal.
> Let us hypothetically assume the negotiations further linger on, there is always an option to place fresh orders and ask Dassault to bring in manufacturing here in India with private players bypassing HAL as whole. Deliveries will be faster and this will compensate for the time lost in protracted negotiations allowing IAF a flexibility in retiring fighters it is forced to fly.


Even in this deal CAG is relevant and can play a role if they want to ..... (they may not get anything though)


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## Paranoid Android

RAFALE UPDATE
Additional 108 Rafale will be built in india as per the mmrca terms.. Which makes a total of 144 birds. 36 off the shelf 108 built here=144.

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## Indo-guy

asquare said:


> My guess is that most of the details on the balance 108 to be built in India have already been worked out, hence this announcement. The 18 extra in fly away condition might have been Dassault's price for agree to provide guarantees on the HAL built Rafales.



If all details have been worked out then why the whole deal was not announced ? 

something is not settled yet ...

There was no need to be in so much hurry ...we have waited so long we might as well have waited another few months ..

these bits and pieces are not going to make anyone happy .

PM should have postponed his visit to France if so much he wanted to announce the deal during visit itself .

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## magudi

ashok mourya said:


> Liability clause is the main reason for delay in deal. Rafale not agreeing for these clauses.




Well whatever we've to iron it out now as we're stuck with the deal


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## Cry.me.a.River

Guynextdoor2 said:


> then why is OP saying MRCA deal off?




Op was based on speculation. Deal has been announced by PM on live TV.




uparyupari said:


> On the contrary it removes our breathing space to haggle.
> 
> Dasasult now has us on the hook. They just have to reel us in slowly. That is why it is a strange way to negotiate.



The only option it close for us is that of Eurofighter, which frankly was never a practical option. 


Strength of our bargaining hand would depend on how LCA-Mk II turns out. The only card that Dassault had with it is rapidly depleting squadron strength of IAF. If LCA-MkII turns out well, and turns out on time; it would remove this depletion anxiety from IAF and MoD's mind.

There is not much market for Eurocanards. USA's allies (Korea, Japan , Canada et al) always buys US made fighters. USA's enemies always but Russian. This leaves only some unattached markets like India and Brazil where Eurocanards would be preferred.


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## Stephen Cohen

Indo-guy said:


> PM should have postponed his visit to France if so much he wanted to announce the deal during visit itself



That is JUST NOT DONE


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## Paranoid Android

RAFALE UPDATE
Additional 108 Rafale will be built in india as per the mmrca terms.. Which makes a total of 144 birds. 36 off the shelf 108 built here=144.

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## nair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> That would be incredibly lame, instead of lowest total cost, it'll be among the highest total cost options.



I really dono , and i dont think current govt and our agencies are that stupid.... But having said that i am surprised with 36.....


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## SrNair

Look at that Rafale deal with Egypt .5 billion $ deal for just 24 plane.

Here 4 billion $ deal for 36 planes .Means another lucrative negotiations is already going on .
@SpArK @sancho 



nair said:


> 36..... .Too less for our requirement...... Hope there is discussion for rest 90

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## Indo-guy

9%GDP_Growth said:


> ..I too have the same point...
> ..Modi is intillegent enough not to put himself in the situation...
> ..he must be having a different idea...for the remaining numbers..



It does not make sense ...

But them Time will tell us ...

especially since we are not privy to inside information .we will have to see how situation evolves in future ...


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## Stephen Cohen

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> RAFALE UPDATE
> Additional 108 Rafale will be built in india as per the mmrca terms.. Which makes a total of 144 birds. 36 off the shelf 108 built here=144.



Could you please post a link


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## abhinav.mehrotra

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> RAFALE UPDATE
> Additional 108 Rafale will be built in india as per the mmrca terms.. Which makes a total of 144 birds. 36 off the shelf 108 built here=144.



What is your source???


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## ranjeet

what you worried about ...... Single fare double journey !!!

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## nik141991

Currently watching the thread 151 (users: 52 guests : 98)

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## SrNair

Total 144 plane .36 is direct deal and rest of 108 will be MMRCA deal.


nair said:


> I really dono , and i dont think current govt and our agencies are that stupid.... But having said that i am surprised with 36.....

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## anant_s

magudi said:


> Do we have to wait till PM is back from tour for more details on this stuff? Is anyone going to take questions from media?
> Nobody has yet uttered a single word about mmrca


Smartly so. 
IAF wants the plane it selected after trials irrespective of how they come. The number may be low, but government has vindicated stand of IAF that it wants MMRCA and not heavy fighters that were touted as possible replacements. Let MMRCA negotiations continue and reach a meaningful end, but till that time, the protector of our skies know, that there concerns are topmost and bureaucratic hurdles will not come in way of their genuine needs.

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## kaykay

@Abingdonboy this is confirmed as a separate order and mmrca deal stays too.

Rafale jet deal separate from talks on bigger order - source

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## nair

SrNair said:


> Look at that Rafale deal with Egypt .5 billion $ deal for just 24 plane.
> 
> Here 4 billion $ deal for 36 planes .Means another lucrative negotiations is already going on .
> @SpArK @sancho



Keep egypt aspect away from this...... our deal was for 126 and probability of a follow up order.... ( i dont think there is any comparison in this case, unless you want to compare the prices for the sake of it)

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## Indo-guy

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> RAFALE UPDATE
> Additional 108 Rafale will be built in india as per the mmrca terms.. Which makes a total of 144 birds. 36 off the shelf 108 built here=144.



hopefully you are correct ...

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## kaykay

Stephen Cohen said:


> Could you please post a link


Rafale jet deal separate from talks on bigger order - source


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## nair

SrNair said:


> Total 144 plane .36 is direct deal and rest of 108 will be MMRCA deal.



Where did u get this 144 for from?

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## magudi

Okay guys twitter is flooded with 144 numbers. 36 in fly away condition + 108 built in India. Can't confirm authenticity of the info though


----------



## Gandhi follower

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792

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## SuperSubrayan

HUGE Breaking News once again !!! 108 Rafale to be built in India as per MMRCA plan  NDTV !!!!

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## nair

kaykay said:


> Rafale jet deal separate from talks on bigger order - source



 Why this suspense???


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## Engineer Paad

So guys what is it all about ? Is India going to buy actual number or is it somewhere less ? Is numbers going to be > Imaan or Imaan will still beat it..Remember when it does not suit us it is always about the fighter who is behide the gun so answer it carefully. Correspondent shopkeeper of Fata @Windjammer what is your view on it ?


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## Stephen Cohen

These 36 planes will take FOUR YEARS

Mean while our economy grows STRONGER and the rest of the deal will not seem a burden 

The down payment for such deals is 10 percent immediately 

That is also manageable 400 Million immediately

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## magudi

Indo-guy said:


> If all details have been worked out then why the whole deal was not announced ?
> 
> something is not settled yet ...
> 
> There was no need to be in so much hurry ...we have waited so long we might as well have waited another few months ..
> 
> these bits and pieces are not going to make anyone happy .
> 
> PM should have postponed his visit to France if so much he wanted to announce the deal during visit itself .




Exactly my point 

This is all modi's fault 

But hey, don't worry fanboys are here to cheerlead whatever that goes on


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## ranjeet

nair said:


> Where did u get this 144 for from?


it was on none other than NDTV ...

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## anant_s

nair said:


> they may not get anything though


well they shouldn't. Technically IAF has cleared the machine (Check), Price committee has evaluated offers of both Rafale and EFT and found Rafale to be L-1 (Check). Now Dassault doesn't agree on some tender conditions of MMRCA tender, We stop (Check).
The machine is available on lower price on G2G basis, without involving any middlemen (Check). We should get them.
I think Government has double checked it all and like u say, it looks like a fair deal.

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## Indo-guy

anant_s said:


> Smartly so.
> IAF wants the plane it selected after trials irrespective of how they come. The number may be low, but government has vindicated stand of IAF that it wants MMRCA and not heavy fighters that were touted as possible replacements. Let MMRCA negotiations continue and reach a meaningful end, but till that time, the protector of our skies know, that there concerns are topmost and bureaucratic hurdles will not come in way of their genuine needs.



That's the whole point ...by agreeing to buy 36 rafale we have released pressure from dassault. Now Dassault will drive hard bargain ...because we have already committed to them .

what was the need to get so desperate ?

we should have just finalized the damn whole MMRCA deal !!!

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## Guynextdoor2

nair said:


> I really dono , and i dont think current govt and our agencies are that stupid.... But having said that i am surprised with 36.....



What I'm thinking is this...it's clear from our experience with SU 30 MKI. That's the only platform in our heavy category fighters and has proved itself to be a brilliant decision. So it is clear that a carefully chosen platform loaded with exception tech can service the entire class. So Rafale, selected carefully after thorough evaluation can serve as the only platform for the entire mid category.

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## nair

ranjeet said:


> it was on none other than NDTV ...



144 is a new number.... 18 more than what we originally planned........

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## magudi

Indo-guy said:


> That's the whole point ...by agreeing to buy 36 rafale we have released pressure from dassault. Now Dassault will drive hard bargain ...because we have already committed to them .
> 
> what was the need to get so desperate ?
> 
> we should have just finalized the damn whole MMRCA deal !!!



Illiteracy and sanghi mindset, what else? 

MMS and Antonyji would have handled it a lot better 

But seems bhakts are satisfied with this jumla again

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## Stephen Cohen

Indo-guy said:


> That's the whole point ...by agreeing to buy 36 rafale we have released pressure from dassault. Now Dassault will drive hard bargain ...because we have already committed to them .
> 
> what was the need to get so desperate ?
> 
> we should have just finalized the damn whole MMRCA deal !!!



IT is a question of trust ie political trust 

Now France cannot say that India is NOT committed to this deal 

If in such high level visits ; you cannot achieve success then it PUTS 
a BIG QUESTION MARK on your committment


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## #hydra#

Are u


Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> RAFALE UPDATE
> Additional 108 Rafale will be built in india as per the mmrca terms.. Which makes a total of 144 birds. 36 off the shelf 108 built here=144.


Are u sure abt this? 36 rafi costing us some 5 billion dollars,so another 12 billion (may be 20 billion) for mmrca.... Its a huge amount, we are not that much rich.I think mmrca contract is dead.


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## Engineer Paad

Guynextdoor2 said:


> What I'm thinking is this...it's clear from our experience with SU 30 MKI. That's the only platform in our heavy category fighters and has proved itself to be a brilliant decision. So it is clear that a carefully chosen platform loaded with exception tech can service the entire class. So Rafale, selected carefully after thorough evaluation can serve as the only platform for the entire mid category.



We are buying it from money of Manerga.So all in all it was Rahul ji who made the way for it and Darinder Moddy is going to take credit for it.


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## wiseone2

Srinivas said:


> "Make in India" should be the prime motto of Modi in France
> 
> Buying 60 fighter jets manufactured in France is not an issue, But Indian Aero space Industry needs technological edge, for that a partnership with Dassault is a good move, I hope the remaining Rafales will be manufactured here in India.



What does it mean to make in India ? Building all the components in France and assembling it in India is not going to work


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## ranjeet

nair said:


> 144 is a new number.... 18 more than what we originally planned........


yeah that's what Vishnu Som said live on TV ... 36 off the shelf and the rest 108 under Make in India.

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## Bornubus

Abingdonboy said:


> IF Rafales are going to built in India the 108 figure is set in stone- this is the figure HAL and Dassualt have been working to for the past three years, cut the order to 90 and the local content of the Rafales will go down, the costs of the ones built in India will go up and the return on investment for setting up of the Rafale production line in India will be less also.


Trade offs Bro teade offs


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## nair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> What I'm thinking is this...it's clear from our experience with SU 30 MKI. That's the only platform in our heavy category fighters and has proved itself to be a brilliant decision. So it is clear that a carefully chosen platform loaded with exception tech can service the entire class. So Rafale, selected carefully after thorough evaluation can serve as the only platform for the entire mid category.



36 is peanuts for our requirement....... luckily there are news reports of another 108 fighters......

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## SuperSubrayan

HUGE Breaking News once again !!! 108 Rafale to be built in India as per MMRCA plan :NDTV !!!!

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## Stephen Cohen

magudi said:


> Illiteracy and sanghi mindset, what else?
> 
> MMS and Antonyji would have handled it a lot better
> 
> But seems bhakts are satisfied with this jumla again



Yeah a lot better ; from 2007 till 2014 they only MESSED the MMRCA deal


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## Engineer Paad

We should buy something from Ummah as well to maintain secular fabric of India otherwise we condom it....Please condom it with me @nair

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## magudi

nair said:


> 144 is a new number.... 18 more than what we originally planned........




108+36?

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## nair

ranjeet said:


> yeah that's what Vishnu Som said live on TV ... 36 off the shelf and the rest 108 under Make in India.



I wonder what stopped modi from stating that during his press conference....

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## ranjeet

magudi said:


> Illiteracy and sanghi mindset, what else?
> 
> MMS and Antonyji would have handled it a lot better
> 
> But seems bhakts are satisfied with this jumla again


I bet Congress would have taken the number to 786

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## bharatiy

May be 36 for immediate recovery of 
IAF strength and more Su 35 are taken as per news. Since Su 35 deal is not finalise with china Russia is eager to deal with India


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## nair

magudi said:


> 108+36?



Yup that is what is been reported.... But i guess we will have to wait for some more time till we have a clear picture on this....

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## Pichkari

OK here is the status
1] This deal has nothing to do with ongoing negotiaitions for mmrca as per reuters,economic times and NDTV
2] The final cost and other details for 36 fighters is still being negotiated an the deal hasn,t been signed yet.

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## magudi

Stephen Cohen said:


> Yeah a lot better ; from 2007 till 2014 they only MESSED the MMRCA deal



You evil mudi bhekt don't quote me again, i am secular

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## Stephen Cohen

magudi said:


> Illiteracy and sanghi mindset, what else?
> 
> MMS and Antonyji would have handled it a lot better
> 
> But seems bhakts are satisfied with this jumla again



Why did not Antony think of an immediate order in 2012 

too bad he lacked the intellect to think ahead 

and MMS was busy DAY DREAMING about Breakfast in Lahore and Lunch in Delhi

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## Engineer Paad

magudi said:


> Illiteracy and sanghi mindset, what else?
> 
> MMS and Antonyji would have handled it a lot better
> 
> But seems bhakts are satisfied with this jumla again



Your mumma Sonia could have done it better unfortunately she is too old to break a deal

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## Stephen Cohen

magudi said:


> , i am secular



Mee too


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## ranjeet

nair said:


> I wonder what stopped modi from stating that during his press conference....


he is Gujju, who knows he just wanted to sweeten the deal with 18 more aircraft to over look minor hiccups.


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## nair

Engineer Paad said:


> We should buy something from Ummah as well to maintain secular fabric of India otherwise we condom it....Please condom it with me @nair




What happened to you my friend?? Are you alright???


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## Tridibans

Engineer Paad said:


> Your mumma Sonia could have done it better unfortunately she is too old to break a deal


 Naughty boy

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## Matrixx

SuperSubrayan said:


> HUGE Breaking News once again !!! 108 Rafale to be built in India as per MMRCA plan :NDTV !!!!


yes ...NDTV is showing the caption for it.....so finally it is 144 Rafale

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## ranjeet

Engineer Paad said:


> Your mumma Sonia could have done it better unfortunately she is too old to break a deal


Ahhh easy on the sarcasm bro ... no mumma pappa. just a request.

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## Stephen Cohen

ranjeet said:


> he is Gujju, who knows he just wanted to sweeten the deal with 18 more aircraft to over look minor hiccups.



Modi did say that the French defence companies have AFFIRMED the MAKE IN INDIA programme

That says a lot ; defence companies mean * Dassault and Friends *

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## Engineer Paad

nair said:


> What happened to you my friend?? Are you alright???



Yes brother it is our duty to condom it..We would like to see you as a mod by condomening everything.


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## Indo-guy

Stephen Cohen said:


> IT is a question of trust ie political trust
> 
> Now France cannot say that India is NOT committed to this deal
> 
> If in such high level visits ; you cannot achieve success then it PUTS
> a BIG QUESTION MARK on your committment



I absolutely understand what you say ...

But the decisions such as this can't be just left at mercy of ethics ....

I know now we have put onus on dassault ...

But you see Dassault has no direct obligation to political trust between India and France ...

We should have negotiated and finalized the whole deal ...using same political good will rather than leave it for another date .

You know we were in driver seat ...and now our practical bargaining power is reduced .

Dassault knows that we have no choice but to purchase remaining jets ....

it leaves us little room for any negotiations...

( this is what i feel )

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## sancho

Indo-guy said:


> That's the whole point ...by agreeing to buy 36 rafale we have released pressure from dassault. Now Dassault will drive hard bargain ...because we have already committed to them .
> 
> what was the need to get so desperate ?
> 
> we should have just finalized the damn whole MMRCA deal !!!



Very true, that's why it would be pretty embarrassing if the government took this commitment just for the photo opp now, while the negotiations on the actual deal goes on. So either they cleared the pending issues with Dassault and didn't announced it till the contract is fixed, or they created a whole new mess as said above. Let's see what details will follow to see where we actually stand now.

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## 9%GDP_Growth

magudi said:


> You evil mudi bhekt don't quote me again, i am secular


..no u are AAParasite..

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## ito

36+108 seems the number


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## Engineer Paad

ranjeet said:


> Ahhh easy on the sarcasm bro ... no mumma pappa. just a request.



My bad bro..Made a note of it but such kind of dirts are on my nerves.

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## Vasily Zaytsev

This will help to clear the doubts. Please read the tweets carefully before making any assumptions/speculations regarding original MMRCA contract and the price and configuration for current 36 Rafales. 

Read ... Read. 






Understood.

There can not be anything crystal clear than this. 

Please Read it carefully. 

Thank You.

Regards.

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## wiseone2

ito said:


> 36+108 seems the number



all these negotiations for nothing


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## nair

Engineer Paad said:


> Yes brother it is our duty to condom it..We would like to see you as a mod by condomening everything.



Spend some more time here....... you mighl condom yourself soon.... Now stop your off topic and concentrate on the topic at hand....

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## Stephen Cohen

Will Dassault be HAPPY and satisfied with just 4 BILLION Dollar deal 
ie just 36 planes

No they wont when they can get 16 BILLION MORE by cooperating with India

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## ranjeet

Engineer Paad said:


> My bad bro..Made a note of it but such kind of dirts are on my nerves.


he was being sarcastic too ... he a bigger bhakt then us.

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## ashok mourya

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> This will help to clear the doubts. Please read the tweets carefully before making any assumptions/speculations regarding original MMRCA contract and the price and configuration for current 36 Rafales.
> 
> Read ... Read.
> View attachment 213894
> 
> 
> Understood.
> 
> There can not be anything crystal clear than this.
> 
> Please Read it carefully.
> 
> Thank You.
> 
> Regards.


Smoke...lot of smoke.....


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## Stephen Cohen

Indo-guy said:


> You know we were in driver seat ...and now our practical bargaining power is reduced .



That vehicle was stuck up 

The IAF was paying the price


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## ranjeet

Engineer Paad said:


> My bad bro..Made a note of it but such kind of dirts are on my nerves.


And please no need to apologize

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## Engineer Paad

nair said:


> Spend some more time here....... you mighl condom yourself soon.... Now stop your off topic and concentrate on the topic at hand....



I am on topic my friend..I was just maintaining the secular fabric of India just to make you feel happy.Unfortunately we have to do all this

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## Stephen Cohen

wiseone2 said:


> all these negotiations for nothing



They are still not over they are going on

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## nair

Engineer Paad said:


> I am on topic my friend..I was just maintaining the secular fabric of India just to make you feel happy.Unfortunately we have to do all this



Ok if that make you happy..... Now that you made your statement get back to the topic.... that is MMRCA


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## Stephen Cohen

We were to get 18 planes WITHIN THREE years of signing the deal

Now we can get 36 in FOUR YEARS

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## nair

sancho said:


> Very true, that's why it would be pretty embarrassing if the government took this commitment just for the photo opp now, while the negotiations on the actual deal goes on. So either they cleared the pending issues with Dassault and didn't announced it till the contract is fixed, or they created a whole new mess as said above. Let's see what details will follow to see where we actually stand now.



I think It is too early to speculate.... I am sure IAF will not agree for 36...... Let us wait for some more time.....

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## Tridibans

Engineer Paad said:


> My bad bro..Made a note of it but such kind of dirts are on my nerves.



I see that you are inspired by our Pakistani friend @engineer saad

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## PARIKRAMA

*

Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 20m20 minutes ago
Now hearing that it's going to be 36 Rafales imported plus 108 to be built in India for a tot of 144. But this keeps changing !




*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 28m28 minutes ago
Sources: MMRCA not scrapped. 108 Rafale to be built in India. 36 imported from France. 144 total. Negotiations continue.




*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
Think this HAS to be an interim purchase of Rafale jets.




*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
No question and answer session. 36 jets won't solve the Air Forces problems.




*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
This is not a deal. It is a statement of intent to buy 36 Rafale jets. A fairly modest deal once it happens.




*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
Rafale deal - 36 Rafale jets in flyaway condition.




*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
Rafale deal - Hollande says Modi will talk about the Rafale deal next

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## Guynextdoor2

nair said:


> Ok if that make you happy..... Now that you made your statement get back to the topic.... that is MMRCA



He's a false flagger.

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## Screambowl

any Idea about the deadline for the procurement of these 36 rafales?


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## Indo-guy

Stephen Cohen said:


> That vehicle was stuck up
> 
> The IAF was paying the price



anyway proof of the pooding is in eating ...

let us see how Modi govt negotiates and concludes the MMRCA and how Dassault comes onboard ....

I will be only happy if you are vindicated !


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## Engineer Paad

sancho said:


> Very true, that's why it would be pretty embarrassing if the government took this commitment just for the photo opp now, while the negotiations on the actual deal goes on. So either they cleared the pending issues with Dassault and didn't announced it till the contract is fixed, or they created a whole new mess as said above. Let's see what details will follow to see where we actually stand now.



What all Congress headquarter has released for today ? 10 years and they slept keeping it under their arse and when someone is doing something you shameless creatures got the audacity to question..Nothing new, some people follow foolishness of their ancestors.



Guynextdoor2 said:


> He's a false flagger.



Rahul Gandhi is my God..Now you believe my loyalty lies with India and to be specific with Congress..I read Rahul mantra every morning when I wake up

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## Stephen Cohen

As per the The ORIGINAL RFP ; Dassault would have given 18 planes in THREE years 

THEN HAL would have started off by making just SIX PLANES a year 
followed by 8 the next year ; 10 in the third year and then 12 per year 

SO WHO WOULD have suffered *only the IAF 

Now 36 will be ready in FOUR years *


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## Gandhi follower



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## K M Cariappa

*India to buy 36 Rafale "ready to fly" on France*

*An agreement between France and India for the sale of 36 Rafale was announced Friday.*

France and India have signed an agreement to buy 36 Rafale as soon as possible, two squadrons. This announcement was made at the Elysee by the Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, in the presence of President Francois Hollande. Trading on the sale of 126 Rafale provided in the MMRCA contract will continue.When Narendra Modi arrived in France, the Indian newspaper The Hindustan Times already said that New Delhi was considering _"seriously buying up to 40 Rafale"_ because of " _operational requirements "_ .

"I asked the president (Hollande) supply 36 Rafale ready to fly to India," said Narendra Modi at a joint press conference with the head of the French state. The Prime Minister, speaking in Hindi, said that the terms and conditions of the contract were not finalized."Our officials will discuss these issues in more detail and continue negotiations," he said, according to the translation of his speech.

Concretely, New Delhi and Dassault Aviation will have in the coming months to finalize the financial and legal contract negotiation. In this context, the Minister of Defence, Jean-Yves Le Drian, quickly visit India for this purpose, said Francois Hollande. Dassault Aviation, which provides the Indian Air Force for over sixty years, _"was honored by the continued confidence of the Indian government and welcomes its intention to complete a purchase of 36 Rafale to conditions that will quickly meet the security needs of India "_ , said the aircraft manufacturer said in a statement Friday.

Further negotiations on the 126 Rafale
It's an amazing flashback . In February 2007, Dassault Aviation, who did not believe in the tender for 126 combat aircraft, had given the sidelines of the Aero India exhibition in Bangalore, the Indian Ministry of Defense an unsolicited offer for the sale OTC 40 Rafale.Eight years later, the story seems to stutter. Francois Hollande told a few hours of his meeting with Elisha with Indian Prime Minister that he hoped _"put"_ on the back of the sale of Rafale fighter jets to India while Narendra Modi said that the France and India _"should be able to move forward on mutually acceptable bases"_ on the occasion of his visit to France.

This agreement is separated into exclusive negotiations started three years ago for the delivery of 126 Rafale in New Delhi, of which 108 were to be manufactured in India.Negotiations have been ongoing for more than three years to overcome differences relating inter alia to the price and responsibility on the devices. The French aircraft had been preferred to the Eurofighter Typhoon of the European consortium. The highly technical negotiations with a massive transfer of technologies still last. Paris and New Delhi have also agreed on the continuation of work on technology transfer in India.

http:// http://www.latribune.fr/ent...ait-acheter-40-rafale-a-la-france-468100.html
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/l-inde-pourrait-acheter-40-rafale-a-la-france-468100.html

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## magudi

Stephen Cohen said:


> We were to get 18 planes WITHIN THREE years of signing the deal
> 
> Now we can get 36 in FOUR YEARS


That doesn't really matter 

We lost our Bargaining power. 

We were in driving seat till now 

Now Dassault has thrown us into the back seat and they've taken over the driving 

One of the worst procurement decision by a government in my lifetime

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## ranjeet

Guynextdoor2 said:


> He's a false flagger.


Sab milay hue hai ji

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## nair

magudi said:


> That doesn't really matter
> 
> We lost our Bargaining power.
> 
> We were in driving seat till now
> 
> Now Dassault has thrown us into the back seat and they've taken over the driving
> 
> One of the worst procurement decision by a government in my lifetime



Not really.... We are still looking for another 108 fighters.........


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## PARIKRAMA

[URL='https://twitter.com/thaparvishal']

*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal [/URL]· 2m2 minutes ago
To sum up: India importing 36 Rafale fighters to commit itself to the larger deal for 126 Rafales, and possibly 63 follow-ons



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 59s59 seconds ago
6/n Import of 36 Rafale justified on ground of "critical operational necessity". Quick delivery likely in time frame compatible with op reqt



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 4m4 minutes ago
5/n India expresses commitment to "separate process underway" for acquiring 126 Rafale fighters, while ordering import of 36 as a precursor



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 5m5 minutes ago
4/n France to deliver 36 fly-away Rafales in the same configuration as the one offered in the IAF tender for 126 fighters, with same weapons



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 7m7 minutes ago
3/n Imported Rafale fighters to cost less than price quoted by Dassault in tender for 126 fighters, govt to govt deal to facilitate import



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 9m9 minutes ago
2/n India commits itself to the French Rafale,sets speculation to rest:Import of 36 Rafale fighters recursor to larger deal for 126 fighters



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 11m11 minutes ago
India's decision to import 36 Rafale fighters in fly away condition a reassurance to France that its committed to tender for 126 Rafales 1/n

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## ito

So at last Rafale is going to fly Indian colors.


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## anant_s

Indo-guy said:


> what was the need to get so desperate ?


I'm not sure how long would one want to make IAF wait. See even now when if deal is signed tonight, it will take at least 36 months for deliveries to begin and given how long MMRCA negotiations are going on, u can imagine things would start looking desperate for IAF beyond 2018.

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## Guynextdoor2

ranjeet said:


> Sab milay hue hai ji



I've seen him with flags of 'biradar mulk'

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## Stephen Cohen

magudi said:


> That doesn't really matter
> 
> We lost our Bargaining power.
> 
> We were in driving seat till now
> 
> Now Dassault has thrown us into the back seat and they've taken over the driving
> 
> One of the worst procurement decision by a government in my lifetime



Relax your fears are BASELESS 

We are not dealing with China

India France relationship has been very good 

There is NO REASON why we cannot trust them 

Such deals are about trust and good faith

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## Indo-guy

Stephen Cohen said:


> As per the The ORIGINAL RFP ; Dassault would have given 18 planes in THREE years
> 
> THEN HAL would have started off by making just SIX PLANES a year
> followed by 8 the next year ; 10 in the third year and then 12 per year
> 
> SO WHO WOULD have suffered *only the IAF
> 
> Now 36 will be ready in FOUR years *




Yes what you are saying is true ...and no doubt that having more jets in fly away condition is good for IAF which is finding itself in terrible situation due to number crunch .

the argument is why this was not done within confines of MMRCA...but outside it .

If we had concluded MMRCA and ordered more Rafale in fly away condition then what you say would have had made sense....

You see due to this deal there is possibility that MMRCA may get delayed due to hard bargaining from Dssault ( they have nothing to lose from that ...)


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## migflug

S


PARIKRAMA said:


> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 2m2 minutes ago
> To sum up: India importing 36 Rafale fighters to commit itself to the larger deal for 126 Rafales, and possibly 63 follow-ons
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 59s59 seconds ago
> 6/n Import of 36 Rafale justified on ground of "critical operational necessity". Quick delivery likely in time frame compatible with op reqt
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 4m4 minutes ago
> 5/n India expresses commitment to "separate process underway" for acquiring 126 Rafale fighters, while ordering import of 36 as a precursor
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 5m5 minutes ago
> 4/n France to deliver 36 fly-away Rafales in the same configuration as the one offered in the IAF tender for 126 fighters, with same weapons
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 7m7 minutes ago
> 3/n Imported Rafale fighters to cost less than price quoted by Dassault in tender for 126 fighters, govt to govt deal to facilitate import
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 9m9 minutes ago
> 2/n India commits itself to the French Rafale,sets speculation to rest:Import of 36 Rafale fighters recursor to larger deal for 126 fighters
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 11m11 minutes ago
> India's decision to import 36 Rafale fighters in fly away condition a reassurance to France that its committed to tender for 126 Rafales 1/n


o Much confusion 144 or 162 total???


----------



## ranjeet

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I've seen him with flags of 'biradar mulk'


ok ... you know more than me about snooping.


----------



## SuperSubrayan

Matrixx said:


> yes ...NDTV is showing the caption for it.....so finally it is 144 Rafale



Hell yeahhhhh ! Total oh 8 Squadrons 

Enemy's nightmare !!!!!!!



Screambowl said:


> any Idea about the deadline for the procurement of these 36 rafales?


2017 I guess ...

Enough to replace all Mig27 . Now Mig 21 must be replaced with tejas MK1 maximum 4 squadrons rest with MK2



Matrixx said:


> yes ...NDTV is showing the caption for it.....so finally it is 144 Rafale


Give and take policy ! 16 more orders for French to relax their stands on HAL made rafale in India with TOT . Both are happy now. ..

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## Indo-guy

anant_s said:


> I'm not sure how long would one want to make IAF wait. See even now when if deal is signed tonight, it will take at least 36 months for deliveries to begin and given how long MMRCA negotiations are going on, u can imagine things would start looking desperate for IAF beyond 2018.


my answer is as above !

post # 890


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## Guynextdoor2

ranjeet said:


> ok ... you know more than me about snooping.



Didn't have to snoop. he has replied to some of my posts with some of those insignia. So I know.

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## K M Cariappa

Damn this thread is going to run longer then the original thread amid all this speculation.... :p

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## PARIKRAMA

migflug said:


> S
> 
> o Much confusion 144 or 162 total???




Vishnu Som - NDTV - 144 - 108+36

abingdonboy and rest of us after listening to Namo says 108+18+63 - MMRCA and 36 separate
Vishal Thapar just echoed the same


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## Stephen Cohen

The Whole RUSSIAN ROULETTE of More SU 30 or SU 35 had created 
an UNEASY environment 

India's CREDIBILITY WAS AT STAKE 

Your PRIME MINISTER cannot just go to a country with such high expectations and then 
have NOTHING to show for it 

Prime Ministerial visits are SERIOUS business 

Add to it the IAF's increasing problems 

This is a good solution

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## magudi

Manindra said:


> Modi's shameless rant.




Sirjeee happy now?


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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> That his decision is validated by the new govt



When (not if) the actual MMRCA deal is signed we will have this conversation again then? 



Indo-guy said:


> are we not losing bargaining tactic ...by agreeing to 36 jets before closing the deal ?
> 
> I think we have tied ourselves in knots by agreeing to this before closing the deal ....
> 
> this will only embolden Dassault to hard bargain later ....





9%GDP_Growth said:


> ...won't this be a bad bargaining practice to buy somethingh with expection of the seller will give discount on the remaining part of deal, when the buyer is at mercy...and has put itself in single vendor case...??


I don't know about that, this is a direct govt-govt deal so the French govt has got involved now and I'm sure some assurances have been given to the GoI before this deal of 36 was agreed upon- love him or hate him, Modi is no fool.


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## Engineer Paad

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I've seen him with flags of 'biradar mulk'



hahahaha call @Irfan Baloch @Horus @WebMaster to check when I had flag of Pakistan..Lying straight on the face you shameless creature when I am still around.


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## migflug

I


PARIKRAMA said:


> Vishnu Som - NDTV - 144 - 108+36
> 
> abingdonboy and rest of us after listening to Namo says 108+18+63 - MMRCA and 36 separate
> Vishal Thapar just echoed the same


if we r going for addition 36 why 63 more??original is only 126 .hence 126+36


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## UgandaToRawanda

*MEA CONFIRMS 108 RAFALE TO BE PRODUCED IN INDIA + 36 FLYAWAY FROM FRANCE = 144 RAFALE.*

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> The Whole RUSSIAN ROULETTE of More SU 30 or SU 35 had created
> an UNEASY environment
> 
> India's CREDIBILITY WAS AT STAKE
> 
> Your PRIME MINISTER cannot just go to a country with such high expectations and then
> have NOTHING to show for it
> 
> Prime Ministerial visits are SERIOUS business
> 
> Add to it the IAF's increasing problems
> 
> This is a good solution



You know there was a report that China had criticized the cost of Su35 and had also mentioned so called Su35S version discussion with India in a newsreport. Now i hope we dont again go back and start the mockery of Su35/Su34/Mig35/Su30MKI etc etc

We should first focus on getting 272 all upgraded to Super30 standard as well as closing the MMRCA deal. As now i am sure French gov and Hollande especially can make Dassault understand that India had committed such big numbers that small 5% (95% negotiations completed) should not become hiccup at all and create issues. With a potential 225 jets at stake and almost equalling French foreces number, Dassault i am sure understands the gravity of the situation much better than else.

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## dray

Guynextdoor2 said:


> how will you get TOT if all planes are made in France?
> 
> I wonder if Bhakt think it is a good deal @Rain Man @SarthakGanguly ? No Make in India, no TOT, overall costs higher than before
> 
> Now start whitewashing this too...



IAF needed new planes some 12 years back, and even if we finalize everything today, it will take at least 3 more years for us to start getting those planes. If something goes wrong in between, then our IAF pilots won't fly on ToT to war, they need real fighter jets, and really soon considering the depleting squadron strength of IAF. The delay by our previous 'do nothing remain clean' defence ministers has put us in this situation. However, as we plug the holes in our defence, the ToT will be there for rest of the planes to be made in India, but this move will save some 5 years for us to get those planes.

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## ranjeet

Indian tourists will be getting visa within 48 hours .... I know it's does not belong here but people are not visiting any other thread.

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## Abingdonboy

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Looks like numbers of Rafale that India is buying keeps dropipng by half with every new news ! From 126 to 62 and now 36. Next number in this sequence is 18 then 9!!


These 36 Rafales are SEPARATE to the 126 Rafale deal currently under negations, 36 is just the start don't you worry mate 


In case you missed it- *the IAF just became the most deadly airforce in Asia*

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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> When (not if) the actual MMRCA deal is signed we will have this conversation again then?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about that, this is a direct govt-govt deal so the French govt has got involved now and I'm sure some assurances have been given to the GoI before this deal of 36 was agreed upon- love him or hate him, Modi is no fool.



If politics gets in the way and a different platform is chosen then I can't help it. But no matter what kinds of faults St Antony had, one cannot deny that he oversaw the MRCA competition in what is considered an extremely transparent and merit oriented way, something that even the EF consortium had pointed out. When a person does good, that needs to be acknowledged too.

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## magudi

Abingdonboy said:


> When (not if) the actual MMRCA deal is signed we will have this conversation again then?
> 
> 
> I don't know about that, this is a direct govt-govt deal so the French govt has got involved now and I'm sure some assurances have been given to the GoI before this deal of 36 was agreed upon- love him or hate him, Modi is no fool.




It is because of blind followers like you our country is where it is today 

We've just lost the driving seat in a multi billion dollar deal

Years of hardwork by an honest and upright man like Antony gone to gutters

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## Guynextdoor2

UgandaToRawanda said:


> *MEA CONFIRMS 108 RAFALE TO BE PRODUCED IN INDIA + 36 FLYAWAY FROM FRANCE = 144 RAFALE.*



Link please?


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## Abingdonboy

heisenberg said:


> IMO this 36 rafale is not part of MMRCA deal..Modi may be thinking of Russian jets for that..but 2 squadrons of Rafale are sufficient. India is getting these jets on fly-away condition-an excellent idea keeping in mind TOT will put presssure on HAL and delays are expected.


You are correct in the first part- the 36 are not part of the MMRCA but the part about Russian jets is way off, the 126 MMRCA deal just needs to be worked out now that is all- Modi has bought the MoD some time to make sure the deal is properly worked out, there isn't as much of a rush now.


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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> You know there was a report that China had criticized the cost of Su35 and had also mentioned so called Su35S version discussion with India in a newsreport. Now i hope we dont again go back and start the mockery of Su35/Su34/Mig35/Su30MKI etc etc
> 
> We should first focus on getting 272 all upgraded to Super30 standard as well as closing the MMRCA deal. As now i am sure French gov and Hollande especially can make Dassault understand that India had committed such big numbers that small 5% (95% negotiations completed) should not become hiccup at all and create issues. With a potential 225 jets at stake and almost equalling French foreces number, Dassault i am sure understands the gravity of the situation much better than else.



Ultimately we will get 300 plus SU 30 there should be no doubt 

Rafale is about the LONG term ; IAF is planning for 2030 and beyond 

Rafale ; MKI ; FGFA will be the HIGH END of IAF


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## Gandhi follower

magudi said:


> It is because of blind followers like you our country is where it is today
> 
> We've just lost the driving seat in a multi billion dollar deal
> 
> *Year of hardwork by an honest and upright man like Antony gone to gutters*



 quote of the century

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## Engineer Paad

UgandaToRawanda said:


> *MEA CONFIRMS 108 RAFALE TO BE PRODUCED IN INDIA + 36 FLYAWAY FROM FRANCE = 144 RAFALE.*



All because of Rahul Ji..Indian media and congress leadership was lying that he is in cambodia whereas he was in France to break it out  @ranjeet @Guynextdoor2 @Tridibans @migflug @Abingdonboy @magudi @PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @kaykay

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## Thorough Pro

interesting move.
if done by india, then they lost the bargaining advantage.
if done by france, then a clever move to hook IAF to the planes. For the 36 planes, IAF would definitely need some kind of infrastructure which probably is not included in the plane cost, once IAF invests in to that (which is not going to be cheap), IAF would essentially close other doors on it, because after the initial investment on the infrastructure, buying more jets would "seem" cheaper even if the make in india deal for 126 (or whatever final number) is more expensive.

anyways congrats to IAF, 144 4+gen spanking new jets will make it very strong.

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## UgandaToRawanda

*MEA CONFIRMS 108 RAFALE TO BE PRODUCED IN INDIA + 36 FLYAWAY FROM FRANCE = 144 RAFALE.*

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## Engineer Paad

magudi said:


> Years of hardwork by an honest and upright man like Antony gone to gutters



May that lungiwala also get drown to gutter.

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## Abingdonboy

magudi said:


> *Year of hardwork by an honest and upright man like Antony gone to gutters*


Please, that man has blood on his hands F*CK his "honesty", I don't use expletives lightly but that man is nothing but vermin. Think of the families across India right now who have suffered an unbearable loss all because this "Saint" chose to put his image above serving his nation.

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## Pichkari

UgandaToRawanda said:


> *MEA CONFIRMS 108 RAFALE TO BE PRODUCED IN INDIA + 36 FLYAWAY FROM FRANCE = 144 RAFALE.*


link de do bhai


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## Stephen Cohen

magudi said:


> It is because of blind followers like you our country is where it is today
> 
> We've just lost the driving seat in a multi billion dollar deal
> 
> Years of hardwork by an honest and upright man like Antony gone to gutters



You must be kidding right



Thorough Pro said:


> anyways congrats to IAF, 144 4+gen spanking new jets will make it very strong.



Thank you for your appreciation

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## Abingdonboy

Thorough Pro said:


> interesting move.
> if done by india, then they lost the bargaining advantage..


If you think Modi signed this deal without seeking assurances from the French side about a favourable deal in the larger MMRCA order then you are being naive. You don't get from being a dirt poor tea seller to the Prime Minister of India without being an incredibly shrewd individual.

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## ranjeet

Engineer Paad said:


> All because of Rahul Ji..Indian media and congress leadership was lying that he is in cambodia whereas he was in France to break it out  @ranjeet @Guynextdoor2 @Tridibans @migflug @Abingdonboy @magudi @PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @kaykay


Rahul Gandhi was in Paris .... to finalize the details of this deal. how dare you blame the ever invisible prince charming?


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## Tridibans

Engineer Paad said:


> *All because of Rahul Ji..*Indian media and congress leadership was lying that he is in cambodia whereas he was in France to break it out  @ranjeet @Guynextdoor2 @Tridibans @migflug @Abingdonboy @magudi @PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @kaykay



Sorry @ranjeet bro.... cant help it.... thought he was referring to you for a moment...
see he has tagged you also

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Ahem ! ... Ahem ! 






Control Nitinji, ... Control !

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## magudi

Guynextdoor2 said:


> If politics gets in the way and a different platform is chosen then I can't help it. But no matter what kinds of faults St Antony had, one cannot deny that he oversaw the MRCA competition in what is considered an extremely transparent and merit oriented way, something that even the EF consortium had pointed out. When a person does good, that needs to be acknowledged too.




Whatever credit he deserves for the bidding he lost everything sitting ducks over the deal for years and now forcing the new govt to do a G to G deal to salvage mmrca


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## Tridibans

4 threads running on the same topic....

Mods are all asleep @WebMaster @Horus

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## ranjeet

Tridibans said:


> Sorry @ranjeet bro.... cant help it.... thought he was referring to you for a moment...
> see he has tagged you also


 no one knows me by that name here ...


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## PARIKRAMA

http://mea.gov.in/bilateral-documen...t_of_Prime_Minister_to_France_0912_April_2015

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## Tridibans

ranjeet said:


> no one knows me by that name here ...



What name

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## Stephen Cohen

ranjeet said:


> Rahul Gandhi was in Paris .... to finalize the details of this deal. how dare you blame the ever invisible prince charming?



Rahul is working out ; building SIX pack Abs 

After he comes back ; he will challenge Modi for a duel

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## A.M.

Rafales are the equivalent to which type of jet? F-16, F-22?

Can someone educate me?


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## K M Cariappa

Abingdonboy said:


> If you think Modi signed this deal without seeking assurances from the French side about a favourable deal in the larger MMRCA order then you are being naive. You don't get from being a dirt poor tea seller to the Prime Minister of India without being an incredibly shrewd individual.



Best reply that I have read till now which really sums up the growth of our PM... I remember an India film line when I see him do things like this.... " *Ganda hai par Dhanda hai ye*"

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## Engineer Paad

Thorough Pro said:


> interesting move.
> if done by india, then they lost the bargaining advantage.
> if done by france, then a clever move to hook IAF to the planes. For the 36 planes, IAF would definitely need some kind of infrastructure which probably is not included in the plane cost, once IAF invests in to that (which is not going to be cheap), IAF would essentially close other doors on it, because after the initial investment on the infrastructure, buying more jets would "seem" cheaper even if the make in india deal for 126 (or whatever final number) is more expensive.
> 
> anyways congrats to IAF, 144 4+gen spanking new jets will make it very strong.



See brother we are not in a losing position..We are the one who is going to pay for it..20-25 billion dollars is not a small amount.Since we have to pay and we have all the options open from American to Russian to European market we could have gone for anything but we know neither China or Pakistan can go for it so we are just taking our time to play with them. If the deal suits us we will go for it and if it does not then we will let it go because Pakistan can never afford it and China will not buy it because if they buy it then world will come to know what J stands in for their JF series.


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## ranjeet

Tridibans said:


> What name


rhne de dada ...

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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> If politics gets in the way and a different platform is chosen then I can't help it. But no matter what kinds of faults St Antony had, one cannot deny that he oversaw the MRCA competition in what is considered an extremely transparent and merit oriented way, something that even the EF consortium had pointed out. When a person does good, that needs to be acknowledged too.


Sure, but then a broken clock is right twice a day 

I'm sorry but looking at Antony's term holistically I can't but despise the man. He got Indians killed for incredibly trivial reasons i.e. he wanted to protect his "image", this is totally unforgivable.

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## Engineer Paad

ranjeet said:


> Rahul Gandhi was in Paris .... to finalize the details of this deal. how dare you blame the ever invisible prince charming?



Kill me if I am not the one who break out this news.

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## magudi

What happens to the 18 that were to be made in France according to mmrca?


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## Pichkari

A.M. said:


> Rafales are the equivalent to which type of jet? F-16, F-22?
> 
> Can someone educate me?


There is a rafale encyclopedia thread.Search for it.
Rafale would fall between f16 and f22


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## Tridibans

ranjeet said:


> rhne de dada ...

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## magudi

Abingdonboy said:


> Sure, but then a broken clock is right twice a day
> 
> I'm sorry but looking at Antony's term holistically I can't but despise the man. He got Indians killed for incredibly trivial reasons i.e. he wanted to protect his "image", this is totally unforgivable.



Sir is it 108 +18 (orig mmrca) + 36 OR 108 + 36?


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## Abingdonboy

magudi said:


> What happens to the 18 that were to be made in France according to mmrca?


Looks like they are part of this 36 leaving 108 to be built in India and this is now what talks will be centred on.

36+108=144 (with the option for 63 more).

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## kaykay

Excellent deal. It was time one has to think about operational capabilities of IAF which we ignored for last 10 years. Our ego were getting us nowhere and in the mean while our numbers were getting down.

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## SuperSubrayan

UgandaToRawanda said:


> *MEA CONFIRMS 108 RAFALE TO BE PRODUCED IN INDIA + 36 FLYAWAY FROM FRANCE = 144 RAFALE.*


Source ? And any more details ?


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## Abingdonboy

magudi said:


> Sir is it 108 +18 (orig mmrca) + 36 OR 108 + 36?


Still unclear mate (let's leave the sir out of this  ) but I've posted above what I think is likely to happen.

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## Indo-guy

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Ahem ! ... Ahem !
> 
> View attachment 213908
> 
> 
> Control Nitinji, ... Control !



I am happy he did not tweet asking to relocate whole of France to India ...for better deal !!!


----------



## trident2010

Marking a breakthrough in the protracted talks in the French Rafale jet deal, Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday announced that India will purchase 36 of these fighter planes that are ready to fly, citing critical operational requirement of the IAF.

The announcement was made by Mr. Modi at a joint news conference with French President Francois Hollande after their summit talks at Elysee palace.

India and France were locked in negotiations for three years over the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets valued at 12 billion USD but has been bogged down over cost and Dassault Aviation’s reluctance to stand guarantee for 108 planes to be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

“Keeping in mind critical operational necessity of fighter jets in India, I have talked to him(Hollande) and requested for 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible under government-to-government deal,” Mr. Modi said.

An agreement on proceeding forward on the stalled nuclear project in Jaitapur in Maharashtra was among the 17 pacts signed after the talks between Mr. Modi and Mr. Hollande.

The Jaitapur project, where French company Areva is to set up six nuclear reactors with total power generation capacity of about 10,000 MW, is stuck for long because of differences over the cost of electricity to be generated.

The agreement between India’s Larsen and Toubro and France’s AREVA is aimed at cost reduction by increasing localisation, to improve financial viability of Jaitapur project.

Another pact related to Pre-—engineering agreements between NPCIL and AREVA in connection with studies that is intended to bring clarity on all technical aspects of the plant so that all parties(AREVA, ALSTOM and NPCIL) can firm up their price and optimise all provisions for risks still included at this stage in the costs of the project.

It will also enable transfer of technology and development of indigenous nuclear energy industry in India.

France also informed India of its decision to implement a scheme for expedited 48 hours visa issuance for Indian tourists.

“There is no such sphere where India and France are not cooperating. France is among India’s most valued friend,” Mr. Modi said.

France also announced an investment of 2 billion euros (about $1 billion) in India as Mr. Modi invited French companies to pump in money in technology in the fastest growing economy.

France will invest 2 billion euros in India, Hollande announced at a CEO forum here.

Inviting French investors, Mr. Modi said, “There is no bigger market than India. It is also the fastest growing economy since the last six months. Various rating agencies like World Bank and Moodys have said in one voice that India is the fastest growing nation.

“It is rare to find a country with a market, with the government determined on development and demographic dividend.

Investors are usually worried about the security of intellectual property (IP). Only democracies like India can guarantee that,” he said.

Addressing a CEOs forum, Mr. Hollande said: “We are ready to allocate through French companies 2 billion euros to support India’s sustainable development.”

He said France will partner India in Urban development of infrastructure like railways and defence and nuclear sector.

*Modi has ‘Naav Pe Charcha’ with French President*

Mr. Modi and Mr. Hollande enjoyed a joint boat cruise on La Seine river here which was described as “_Naav Pe Charcha_” (chat on the boat).

MR. Hollande was seen giving details to Mr. Modi about various areas as the boat cruised through the river.

Many people enjoying a boat ride in the river at that time were seen waving at the dignitaries, including French ministers.

The two leaders had the boat ride after their detailed discussions, focusing on cooperation in the areas of civil nuclear energy, defence, space and trade.

Mr. Modi is visiting France in the first leg of his nine-day three-nation tour that will take him to Germany and Canada also.

It was the first time that Modi had ‘Naav Pe Charcha’ with any world leader.

Earlier, Mr. Modi has had ‘_Chai Pe Charcha_’ (chat over tea) with some world leaders, including US President Barack Obama during his visit to New Delhi in January and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe during the Indian leader’s visit to that country last year.

The concept of ‘_Chai Pe Charcha_’ came to be known during Modi’s campaign for Lok Sabha polls last year. During that, he used ‘_Chai Pe Charcha_’ as an election plank.


Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France - The Hindu

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## Stephen Cohen

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Control Nitinji, ... Control !



Nitin Gokhale is a good journalist 

It is good that his news of IAF getting more FLY away jets 
did not come wrong



magudi said:


> Hello to all fellow lurking Pakistanis



Please control your excitement

Dont get banned

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## SR-91

@Abingdonboy 
From what we are picking up so far, do u think the numbers are 36+126 or 36+108?


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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> We were to get 18 planes WITHIN THREE years of signing the deal
> 
> Now we can get 36 in FOUR YEARS


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## Stephen Cohen

SR-91 said:


> 36+108?



Yes Most likely 36 plus 108


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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> @Abingdonboy
> From what we are picking up so far, do u think the numbers are 36+126 or 36+108?


36+ 108= 144 with the option for 63 more.

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> 36+ 108= 144



Co incidentally FGFA is also being pegged at 144


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## kbd-raaf

Abingdonboy said:


> 36+ 108= 144 with the option for 63 more.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792

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## Cry.me.a.River

A.M. said:


> Rafales are the equivalent to which type of jet? F-16, F-22?
> 
> Can someone educate me?




Better than F-16 , inferior to F-22 (which plane is not ?)

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> 36+ 108= 144 with the option for 63 more.



Ouch!!!!
when all said and done, it will be *207 *jets.

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> Co incidentally FGFA is also being pegged at 144


I noticed that too, given these purchases are done using a base of 18 (1 Sqn) I guess that is hardly surprising. 144= 8 Sqns.



SR-91 said:


> Ouch!!!!
> when all said and done, it will *209 *jets.


Potentially 207

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## Engineer Paad

Abingdonboy said:


> 36+ 108= 144 with the option for 63 more.



Oh come on..Have you seen Damini..Remember a dialogue "Chadha in hathiyaro ko chalane k liye ladke to le aaoge par kaleja kahan se laoge" or "Chadha in hatho ne abhi hathiyar chalana chodda hai inhe chalana nahi bhula hai:..Now recall we will kill you with thousand cuts.We are calm because we are busy with something else and moreover for my first statement you don't have Imaan so you don't have kaleja so keep your Rafales with yourself.F16 with Imaan >Rafael,F22,PakFa>F35.

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## magudi

Abingdonboy said:


> 36+ 108= 144 with the option for 63 more.



But still no deal for even the 36 as of yet nor any confirmed time frames! 
Remind me again why we're all getting excited?


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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> I noticed that too, given these purchases are done using a base of 18 (1 Sqn) I guess that is hardly surprising. 144= 8 Sqns.
> 
> 
> Potentially 207



May be ; may be not 

But let us recall that MKI deal ALSO happened like 

First 40 were FLY AWAY s then we started making them here

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## Pichkari

Engineer Paad said:


> .F16 with Imaan >Rafael,F22,PakFa>F35.


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## Abingdonboy

Mr Aroor is doing some really dumb maths now:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586602438867587073

Simply to justify his premature patting himself on the back a few hours earlier:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586462607332155393

He has even admitted the truth:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586579091261784064

ALL of his figures are wrong- 162, 90 and 99

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## trident2010

*India-France Joint Statement during the visit of Prime Minister to France (April 9-11, 2015)*

14. Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force, *Government of India would like to acquire [36] Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible*. The two leaders agreed to conclude an *Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway*; the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF; and that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.

India-France Joint Statement during the visit of Prime Minister to France (April 9-11, 2015)

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## Stephen Cohen

Engineer Paad said:


> Oh come on..Have you seen Damini..Remember a dialogue "Chadha in hathiyaro ko chalane k liye ladke to le aaoge par kaleja kahan se laoge" or "Chadha in hatho ne abhi hathiyar chalana chodda hai inhe chalana nahi bhula hai:..Now recall we will kill you with thousand cuts.We are calm because we are busy with something else and moreover for my first statement you don't have Imaan so you don't have kaleja so keep your Rafales with yourself.F16 with Imaan >Rafael,F22,PakFa>F35.



What has gotten into you ?


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## Lonely Hermit

List of agreements signed during visit of Prime Minister to France | Home | www.narendramodi.in


I dont see any MOU signed for rafale in this list .


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## Suman

SuperSubrayan said:


> Source ? And any more details ?




Read yahoo news

India orders 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets - PM Modi - Yahoo News


----------



## Cry.me.a.River

Engineer Paad said:


> Oh come on..Have you seen Damini..Remember a dialogue "Chadha in hathiyaro ko chalane k liye ladke to le aaoge par kaleja kahan se laoge" or "Chadha in hatho ne abhi hathiyar chalana chodda hai inhe chalana nahi bhula hai:..Now recall we will kill you with thousand cuts.We are calm because we are busy with something else and moreover for my first statement you don't have Imaan so you don't have kaleja so keep your Rafales with yourself.F16 with Imaan >Rafael,F22,PakFa>F35.




There is one logical mistake in this paragraph.

Can you find that mistake?


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## East or West India Best

These are the DSI versions, right?


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## Storm Force

viv. la france Will take 36 right now thank you 

And license build 108 in India from 2018 onwards.

Mica meteore and scalp stealth missiles in few thousand plz


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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> May be ; may be not
> 
> But let us recall that MKI deal ALSO happened like
> 
> First 40 were FLY AWAY s then we started making them here


272 MKIs later and here we are


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## Engineer Paad

East or West India Best said:


> These are the DSI versions, right?



No, After spending billion of dollars we will send them straight to China to upgrade them to get DSI

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## East or West India Best

Engineer Paad said:


> No, After spending billion of dollars we will send them straight to China to upgrade them to get DSI



Maybe we can install the famous DF-21 too


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## Tridibans

@Engineer Paad @Cry.me.a.River 

Please get a chatroom you two....

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## DeathInvader

Wtf is going on?????


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## Abingdonboy

kbd-raaf said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586577566871457792


Hmmm, this is getting rather confusing- a lot of conflicting comments coming out as to whether the 36 are entirely separate from the 126 OR simply separate from the 108 and the 36 unit figure represents just an additional 18 Rafales to be built in India as opposed to the original deal.


Anyway we can safely say the IAF will have *at least *144 (36+108) but could conceivably get 162, add in the follow-on units (63) we are looking at 207- 225.

So all i can say with any degree of certainty is the IAF will be operating *144-225 Rafales by 2025*, the details will emerge in time....


And some of our "friends" just went

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## Engineer Paad

Guys a humble request..We started cheering up just by going through the sources where in we have bigger sources out here who claim otherwise.We are just reading on Internet which does not hold any credibility but one of the mod who has close relationship with forces and analysts worldwide claimed something different a month ago. Don't you think we should wait because @Horus heard something else from his credible sources.

France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

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## DeathInvader

Fap fap fap fap

Rafale you beautiful !


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## Abingdonboy

Engineer Paad said:


> Guys a humble request..We started cheering up just by going through the sources where in we have bigger sources out here who claim otherwise.We are just reading on Internet which does not hold any credibility but one of the mod who has close relationship with forces and analysts worldwide claimed something different a month ago. Don't you think we should wait because @Horus heard something else from his credible sources.
> 
> France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.


Yes let's all ignore the words of the *Prime Minister of India* some Pakistani industrialists know better....

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## ptldM3

East or West India Best said:


> These are the DSI versions, right?




The DSI things is so page 2, i trolled everyone and end up getting a bunch of thanks. Learn from the master....

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## kaykay

Shiv Aroor is confirming 144 number too.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586611856367714304


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## Trisonics

Donatello said:


> Umm, wait, unless i got that wrong, Isn't India changing the RFP rules itself now.....they wanted 18 in flyaway condition (original tender, regardless of which aircraft was selected) and rest by HAL....seems like even Modi has realized that they were demanding too much.....or expecting too much.



No they are not. They have used a follow-on order clause within the RFP which allowed them to get more than just 18. This has been reported in Le Monde.


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## Tridibans

Engineer Paad said:


> Guys a humble request..We started cheering up just by going through the sources where in we have bigger sources out here who claim otherwise.We are just reading on Internet which does not hold any credibility but one of the mod who has close relationship with forces and analysts worldwide claimed something different a month ago. Don't you think we should wait because @Horus heard something else from his credible sources.
> 
> France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.



I see what you did there....


----------



## kbd-raaf

Engineer Paad said:


> Guys a humble request..We started cheering up just by going through the sources where in we have bigger sources out here who claim otherwise.We are just reading on Internet which does not hold any credibility but one of the mod who has close relationship with forces and analysts worldwide claimed something different a month ago. Don't you think we should wait because @Horus heard something else from his credible sources.
> 
> France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.



I can't deal.


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## Engineer Paad

Abingdonboy said:


> Yes let's all ignore the words of the *Prime Minister of India* some Pakistani industrialists know better....



To me it looks like he checked date and time of birth of Rafael and consulted with bejan daaruwal.

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## East or West India Best

ptldM3 said:


> The DSI things is so page 2 i trolled everyone and end up getting a bunch of thanks. Learn from the master....
> View attachment 213922



Damn I just skipped to the end should have read it :'(


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## Abingdonboy

Mr Thapar (a respectable journalist) seems to think the IAF is looking at 225 Rafales by 2025:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586595912748662784


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## Engineer Paad

Meanwhile a French visitor celebrated the deal in his own way and was joined by a tibetan @41..We will liberate you brothers.


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## A.M.

Congratz neighbors.


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## jaiind

Finally it has happened.our neighbors question is does the rafale has dsi technology to compete with them.


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## East or West India Best

Why are these brits butthurt soo hard?

India orders 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets - PM Modi - Yahoo News UK

That's the gratitude our Country gets for sending to those Indian b******ds foreign aid since 1947 . We must be crazy in Britain . Sending aid to a Country that has a Space Agency and Nuclear Weapons . The French of all people ,getting a huge Trade Deal from a Country that laughs in our face . We should concentrate on China - boycott Indian goods -teach them a Lesson . I sometimes wish we had a strong Leader in this Country , a British Hitler -just for a few years who would teach these ungrateful Nations a Lesson .

How stupid India is still a very poor country. Calcutta could do with that money.

Yes ! Why not ? after all we do give them millions in aid to go and buy French.
Wonderful!! why could they not buy British, especially when most of them are over here claiming benefits as well. We are really stupid, how can we justify paying out millions in aid to India if they can afford to spend buying fighter jets, who are they protecting themselves from ? terrorists??? with fighter planes???

France is responsible for weaponizing a country that cannot feed its poor people.
They will act on impulse if anyone offends their religion.
This can only fuel the war between India & Pakistan.

Thats one country that should have its foreign aid stopped

it's amazing what you can buy with someone else's money !!!

Are they paying for them with British aid?


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## Iggy

The 36 Rafales now ordered muat be from the 40 they offered as a stop gap and has nothing to do with MCRA


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## Pichkari

India orders 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in historic deal | French News | Expatica France

India's prime minister announced Friday that New Delhi had ordered 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in a multi-billion-euro agreement that has been years in the making.

Standing alongside his counterpart Francois Hollande on a visit to France -- the first leg of his maiden trip to Europe -- Narendra Modi finally relieved the frantic speculation over whether tortuous, years-long negotiations on buying the jets would ever bear fruit.

"I asked the president (Hollande) to supply us with 36 Rafale jet fighter planes, the ready-to-fly models," Modi said at a joint news conference at the Elysee Palace.

While long-blocked exclusive negotiations between the two sides had initially focused on 126 French Rafales, the 36-jet order is manufacturer Dassault's biggest yet abroad -- estimated to be worth nearly four billion euros ($4.2 billion).

Paris sold 24 Rafale jets to Egypt earlier this year.

*Negotiations to buy the planes kicked off in 2012 but had been bogged down over cost and New Delhi's insistence on assembling a portion of the high-tech planes in India.

Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian told reporters after Modi's announcement that all 36 jets would be manufactured in France.

Negotiations, meanwhile, continue on finalising the initial 126-jet agreement.*

- Pakistan, China threat -

Indian defence analyst Saurabh Joshi said the country's air force urgently needs new jets to update its ageing fleet in the face of antagonistic neighbours Pakistan and China.

As such, India has launched a vast defence modernisation programme worth some $100 billion.

Modi, a right-wing Hindu nationalist, was effectively blacklisted by the European Union for years, accused of encouraging deadly communal riots in 2002 in the western state of Gujarat, which he governed for over a decade.

But after his landslide victory in a general election last year, and with India's economy now growing faster than even China's, France is rolling out the red carpet for the one-time outcast.

"France has always been a reliable supplier for India from jet fighters to submarines," Modi said, pointing to cooperation in a number of sectors such as space, nuclear energy and defence.

Hollande said he was "deeply moved" by the announcements and said they took the partnership between the two countries "into a new gear."

French nuclear giant Areva is still awaiting the go-ahead to install six reactors in India's western state of Maharashtra, five years after a bilateral civil nuclear accord.

Nothing was announced on this particular accord, but India and France signed agreements in a raft of other sectors such as space and transport.

They also discussed cooperation in the fight against extremism.

But Hollande expressed his "indignation" after Pakistani authorities on Thursday freed the alleged mastermind of the 2008 Mumbai attacks on bail. Modi made no comment on the issue.

After a two-day whistlestop tour that will take him from northern to southern France -- with a short breather to take in the Paris sights from a boat ride on the Seine -- Modi will jet off to Germany.

He will end his trip further afield in Canada, home to a large Indian diaspora.

- 'Jobs for the young' -

Modi is seeking to attract investors as he tries to rewrite India's reputation as a tricky place to do business, beset by bureaucracy, corruption and a stringent tax regime.

The government has already relaxed rules for foreign investors, eager to create work for the millions who enter India's job market each year.

"Our main challenge is to create jobs for the young -- 800 million Indians are less than 35 years old," he told Le Figaro daily.

While Modi was quick to meet US President Barack Obama and Asia's top leaders after his election last May, it has taken him nearly a year to travel to Europe.

Still, trade between India and the EU as a whole has grown from 28.6 billion euros ($30.5 billion) in 2003 to 72.7 billion euros in 2013, and both sides are keen for the upswing to continue.

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## Thorough Pro

if your bravado makes you feel happy, then be it, but that is not how long term strategic decisions are made. IAF will buy what meets its doctrinal needs in the backdrop of perceived threats. not what Pak or China can afford or not. It's never about the money, but somehow you guys can never come out of it.

Ones you commit for the 36, you will not go for any new platform, you may however limit it to 36 and acquire more SU30's, but it will not be anything else. It's neither easy nor tactically sound to go for two new similar platforms simultaneously. Setting up maintenance infrastructure, spares, armament would become a nightmare.

From our PIOV, we would love if you get 3 new platforms. get my point.




SrNair said:


> @Abingdonboy @nair @NKVD .So my source was correct after all .Look deal is signed





Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> View attachment 213887





Engineer Paad said:


> See brother we are not in a losing position..We are the one who is going to pay for it..20-25 billion dollars is not a small amount.Since we have to pay and we have all the options open from American to Russian to European market we could have gone for anything but we know neither China or Pakistan can go for it so we are just taking our time to play with them. If the deal suits us we will go for it and if it does not then we will let it go because Pakistan can never afford it and China will not buy it because if they buy it then world will come to know what J stands in for their JF series.


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## The_Sidewinder

SuperSubrayan said:


> Where is my Bro @The_Sidewinder ....
> 
> 
> Yup 18 each .
> 
> And why I get an impression that additional jets will be made in India ?
> 
> Am just guessing . No source to back my claim . Modi ji would have gone for it as stop gab solution . As negotiations for ToT will take more time.
> 
> And now we have more time to negotiate . If that's the what in his mind then it's a Master Stroke move




Just woke up mere bhai. Took a eatrly night hoping to wake up just in time for Modiji's historic press conferrence. But thanks to my lazy a$$ attitude , woke up just now.

anyways,   
Congratulations.

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> Please, that man has blood on his hands F*CK his "honesty", I don't use expletives lightly but that man is nothing but vermin. Think of the families across India right now who have suffered an unbearable loss all because this "Saint" chose to put his image above serving his nation.



@Abingdonboy 

AB, You are fu(king pumped up today dude, either that or you've cracked a few bottles today. Wuzup with that?

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## ptldM3

*Bombshell breaking news regarding Rafale. I can't believe it!!!*



338154_1326251216578_469_428.jpg




The saga continues...

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> @Abingdonboy
> 
> AB, You are fu(king pumped up today dude, either that or you've cracked a few bottles today. Wuzup with that?


haha, well I'm not much of a drinker mate- I guess it has just been a pretty good day, preordered an Apple Watch and the long awaited Rafale and AREVA deals came to India, who can help getting a little cheery?

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## Engineer Paad

Thorough Pro said:


> if your bravado makes you feel happy, then be it, but that is not how long term strategic decisions are made. IAF will buy what meets its doctrinal needs in the backdrop of perceived threats. not what Pak or China can afford or not. It's never about the money, but somehow you guys can never come out of it.
> 
> Ones you commit for the 36, you will not go for any new platform, you may however limit it to 36 and acquire more SU30's, but it will not be anything else. It's neither easy nor tactically sound to go for two new similar platforms simultaneously. Setting up maintenance infrastructure, spares, armament would become a nightmare.
> 
> From our PIOV, we would love if you get 3 new platforms. get my point.



Mate you took it seriously and to be honest you should have taken it seriously because whatever I wrote was meant to be taken up seriously.


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## ptldM3

Gabriel92 said:


> I can't see the pic you posted ?




It works for me. All you need to know is it is another bombshell. We have had so much news/bombshells regarding the Rafale deal lately that its hard to keep up with or differentiate what is real and what is not.


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## Gabriel92

ptldM3 said:


> It works for me. All you need to know is it is another bombshell. We have had so much news/bombshells regarding the Rafale deal lately that its hard to keep up with or differentiate what is real and what is not.



(To keep in mind) Actually the official news is that Modi has asked us to provide them 36 Rafale (though the deal needs to be finalized).
Let's wait and see for the rest.


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## SuperSubrayan

The_Sidewinder said:


> Just woke up mere bhai. Took a eatrly night hoping to wake up just in time for Modiji's historic press conferrence. But thanks to my lazy a$$ attitude , woke up just now.
> 
> anyways,
> Congratulations.



 

And looks like we are going for 180+ rafale for IAF alone 



Gabriel92 said:


> (To keep in mind) Actually the official news is 36 Rafale (though the deal needs to be finalized).
> Let's wait and see for the rest.


MMRCA is on !!!! 36 rafale won't solve anything for IAF. These are assurance for our commitment to buy 124 MMRCA . As our Navy will also need at least 40 Rafale M for INS Vishal . In a decade .

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## انگریز

Not an authentic source .


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## SuperSubrayan

Thorough Pro said:


> if your bravado makes you feel happy, then be it, but that is not how long term strategic decisions are made. IAF will buy what meets its doctrinal needs in the backdrop of perceived threats. not what Pak or China can afford or not. It's never about the money, but somehow you guys can never come out of it.
> 
> Ones you commit for the 36, you will not go for any new platform, you may however limit it to 36 and acquire more SU30's, but it will not be anything else. It's neither easy nor tactically sound to go for two new similar platforms simultaneously. Setting up maintenance infrastructure, spares, armament would become a nightmare.
> 
> From our PIOV, we would love if you get 3 new platforms. get my point.



I don't understand this point made by our neighbours. Two new platform will create logistic trouble. We already use many different platforms for over 3-4 decades now. And Rafale is not for air superiority as per our doctrine (it's has equal capabilities of air superiority) . Air dominance is usually carried out by MKI at present and in future by Super sukoi , FGFA .

Why this deal is important for us ? Because with this jet we are planned to replace our Migs from 2017 . It's very clear that at least 36 mig 21 will be replaced with this fighter . And 124 MMRCA is still on as per many different sources . This 36 is made to give assurance and our commitment on MMRCA . As anyways our IN will need 40-50 rafaleM for Ins Vishal in 10 years time frame . Our Nuclear forces looking to buy 40+ Rafale . And for IAF we need 124 + 64 was already planned for followOn in MMRCA deal guidelines. 

So its not just for IAF but for 2 other forces. Navy and Nuclear task forces . And that's the reason we are willing to pay huge amount for TOT . Or else India will have to develop new platform in short time . Better to get on safe side than putting our eggs in one basket. 

Note : IAF already operates Mig 21 , 27, 29, Jags , mirages , MKI and whole lots of Helicopters and transport aircraft In very large numbers so logistics won't be a problem


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## Luca1

Modi is doing the right thing by getting it off the shelf. India desperately need these planes and getting them off the shelf is the quickest way.

Why won't India buy all 126 off the shelf and save the TOT money on developing AMCA or buy PAKFA


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## SuperSubrayan

Luca1 said:


> Modi is doing the right thing by getting it off the shelf. India desperately need these planes and getting them off the shelf is the quickest way.
> 
> Why won't India buy all 126 off the shelf and save the TOT money on developing AMCA or buy PAKFA


Because we need more than 124 rafale and we are not some banana Republic to spend all these money on imports. We can afford to build it at Home . Ins Vishal will have RafaleM and Rafale is also preferred for Nuclear delivery 40+40 at least


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## Cyberian

Seems like a knee jerk reaction by India to Pakistan's recent acquisition of 13 F-16s from Jordan.


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## Luca1

SuperSubrayan said:


> Because we need more than 124 rafale and we are not some banana Republic to spend all these money on imports. We can afford to build it at Home . Ins Vishal will have RafaleM and Rafale is also preferred for Nuclear delivery 40+40 at least



Well. It's worse to spend on TOT than import existing planes and spend the money on developing domestic tech.


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## 45'22'

SUPARCO said:


> Seems like a knee jerk reaction by India to Pakistan's recent acquisition of 13 F-16s from Jordan.


13 F-16


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## Cyberian

45'22' said:


> 13 F-16



Yes, enough to scare india.

Indian militarily likes to have force at least 3 times bigger than Pakistan in order to feel safe.


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## 45'22'

SUPARCO said:


> Yes, enough to scare india.
> 
> Indian militarily likes to have force at least 3 times bigger than Pakistan in order to feel safe.


Lol

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## ni8mare

SUPARCO said:


> Seems like a knee jerk reaction by India to Pakistan's recent acquisition of 13 F-16s from Jordan.


says a person with a faltu logo....


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## Abingdonboy

SUPARCO said:


> Yes, enough to scare india.
> 
> Indian militarily likes to have force at least 3 times bigger than Pakistan in order to feel safe.


That's not how it works, they have a military that their threat perception and economy dictates. In the past the threat perception was less (China wasn't as omnipresent on the minds of Indian military planners) and the Indian economy couldn't support a particularly impressive military- both of these factors are no longer present and hence a rapidly growing Indian military and this is just the start......



SUPARCO said:


> Seems like a knee jerk reaction by India to Pakistan's recent acquisition of 13 F-16s from Jordan.


Of course, ordinarily you would need 3 F-16s to cover 1 Rafale but when you have 1 F-16 in the hands of a PAF pilot you need 3 Rafales piloted by weak Indians, and even that may not be enough

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> haha, well I'm not much of a drinker mate- I guess it has just been a pretty good day, preordered an Apple Watch and the long awaited Rafale and AREVA deals came to India, who can help getting a little cheery?



AH!!!! u suck dude, I can't put u on my friends list now. You're a APPLE fan.
U are suppose to be the "know everything guy", how did u screw up on this one 
Samsung is way better.

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> AH!!!! u suck dude, I can't put u on my friends list now. You're a APPLE fan.
> U are suppose to be the "know everything guy", how did u screw up on this one
> Samsung is way better.


hahaha, sadly you are not the first person to tell this to me I have been on the receiving end of a lot of insults because of my love of all things Apple


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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> hahaha, sadly you are not the first person to tell this to me I have been on the receiving end of a lot of insults because of my love of all things Apple



Im gonna let u off the hook this time, but if i hear u bought an apple product again, Im just gonna have to ban u.

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## 帅的一匹

only 36? said it is 63?


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## Chanakya's_Chant

wanglaokan said:


> only 36? said it is 63?



Its 36 (off the shelf) +108 (Original MMRCA - Manufactured under ToT from France) = 144 Rafales

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## 帅的一匹

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Its 36 (off the shelf) +108 (Original MMRCA - Manufactured under ToT from France) = 144 Rafales


seems the made in India plan is going down to the drain now.

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## Chanakya's_Chant

wanglaokan said:


> seems the made in India plan is going down to the drain now.



Why? The rest 108 Rafales are to be manufactured by HAL in India under ToT from Dassault Aviation.

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## Abingdonboy

wanglaokan said:


> seems the made in India plan is going down to the drain now.


Nope



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586579091261784064

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586611856367714304

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## New Resolve

So after 14 years of negotiating how much TOT is forth coming or is this the new strategic "MAKE IN FRANCE" Initiative.


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## 帅的一匹

144 units of Rafale is very decent number, It's a great incentives to our Pakistan friend.

while India is building up deals, Pakistan shall do something to respond.

it shall not be only restrained to buy some second handed F16 to cope with Rafale.

@Horus


----------



## Skull and Bones

wanglaokan said:


> 144 units of Rafale is very decent number, It's a great incentives to our Pakistan friend.
> 
> while India is building up deals, Pakistan shall do something to respond.
> 
> it shall not be only restrained to buy some second handed F16 to cope with Rafale.
> 
> @Horus



The Rafale orders can be well above 200 eventually.


----------



## salarsikander

Hi, 

This is far more better option for India as cancelling the deal would mean they would be left with depleting strength of fighters which is way too much to their own standards. 

MMRCA was about developing the technology base and infrastructure for hi-tech fighter crafts not about getting merely 60 crafts off the shelf

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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> 144 units of Rafale is very decent number, It's a great incentives to our Pakistan friend.
> 
> while India is building up deals, Pakistan shall do something to respond.
> 
> it shall not be only restrained to buy some second handed F16 to cope with Rafale.
> 
> @Horus



It poses no immediate threat. I'm sure FC-31 will mature right in time for PAF.

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## 帅的一匹

Skull and Bones said:


> The Rafale orders can be well above 200 eventually.


200 Rafale is hell of firepower out there, we need to address it.



Horus said:


> It poses no immediate threat. I'm sure FC-31 will mature right in time for PAF.


development of FC31 shall be accelerate to cope with Rafale induction.


----------



## Skull and Bones

wanglaokan said:


> 200 Rafale is hell of firepower out there, we need to address it.



Possible breakdown will be, 36 (ordered)+126 (as per contract)+ 63 (optional order as per the contract)


----------



## 帅的一匹

Skull and Bones said:


> Possible breakdown will be, 36 (ordered)+126 (as per contract)+ 63 (optional order as per the contract)


please mobilize all those Rafale along China border, leave Pakistan alone.


----------



## Skull and Bones

wanglaokan said:


> please mobilize all those Rafale along China border, leave Pakistan alone.



For Pakistan, we will have Mig-29 UPD and Mirage 2000-9s. 

For a moment, i forgot we also have 250 odd Su-30MKIs.

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## 帅的一匹

@Horus Is there any possibility that China deliver 2 squadrons of J10 b to PAF to cope with the incoming threats? Rumor of delivery of J10b still lingering around Chinese defence forum.



Skull and Bones said:


> For Pakistan, we will have Mig-29 UPD and Mirage 2000-9s.
> 
> For a moment, i forgot we also have 250 odd Su-30MKIs.


200 Radale +250 MKI = huge threat


----------



## Skull and Bones

wanglaokan said:


> 200 Radale +250 MKI = huge threat



I thought Hindi-Chinis are bhai bhai.

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## 帅的一匹

Skull and Bones said:


> I thought Hindi-Chinis are bhai bhai.


before 1962.


----------



## Skull and Bones

wanglaokan said:


> before 1962.



You broke my heart, nigga.


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## The_Sidewinder

Skull and Bones said:


> You broke my heart, nigga.


lol


----------



## ito

wanglaokan said:


> 144 units of Rafale is very decent number, It's a great incentives to our Pakistan friend.
> 
> while India is building up deals, Pakistan shall do something to respond.
> 
> it shall not be only restrained to buy some second handed F16 to cope with Rafale.
> 
> @Horus



Yes ... great opportunity for China to sell more military wares to Pakistan

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## ashok321

Its only 36 now.

'Have requested 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible,' PMO India tweeted on Friday night.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586599292351094786

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## Luca1

ashok321 said:


> Its only 36 now.
> 
> 'Have requested 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible,' PMO India tweeted on Friday night.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586599292351094786



If France keep on finding issues with the contract, India will keep on buying off the shelf.


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## babbar

Luca1 said:


> If France keep on finding issues with the contract, India will keep on buying off the shelf.



You try too hard to be cute chini.

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## 帅的一匹

Luca1 said:


> If France keep on finding issues with the contract, India will keep on buying off the shelf.


To be honest, France is not interested to set up assembly line in India at all.


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## GORKHALI

wanglaokan said:


> To be honest, France is not interested to set up assembly line in India at all.


Yea they will set up in china for sure....


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## babbar

wanglaokan said:


> To be honest, France is not interested to set up assembly line in India at all.



Thanks for your honesty on behalf of the french, chini no 2.

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## ashok321

wanglaokan said:


> To be honest, France is not interested to set up assembly line in India at all.



In how many countries does France has set up an assembly line?


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## GORKHALI

wanglaokan said:


> 144 units of Rafale is very decent number, It's a great incentives to our Pakistan friend.
> 
> while India is building up deals, Pakistan shall do something to respond.
> 
> it shall not be only restrained to buy some second handed F16 to cope with Rafale.
> 
> @Horus


Yes time for Chinese Session Clearance sale..


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## The BrOkEn HeArT

ashok321 said:


> Its only 36 now.
> 
> 'Have requested 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible,' PMO India tweeted on Friday night.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586573936961400833
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586599292351094786


Only 36??" Is there any plan to get more in future???


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## 帅的一匹

GORKHALI said:


> Yes time for Chinese Session Clearance sale..


We have very high-level military cooperation with Pakistan, to deal with any potential threat coming from India side.


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## ashok321

OT but historic event:

*Obama, Castro speak by phone amid bid to restore Cuba ties:*
*
If Pakistan did the same, they don't have to buy any weapons.*


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## ptldM3

Luca1 said:


> If France keep on finding issues with the contract, India will keep on buying off the shelf.





Contract and France are like oil and water, they don't mix well. But at the end it looks like India will get their aircraft.


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## ashok321

wanglaokan said:


> We have very high-level military cooperation with Pakistan, to deal with any potential threat coming from India side.



Oh since when?

2013, your annual investment overall (global) was 101 billions.
Investment in Pakistan? paltry 90 million.
Do you have more to say on such?
Lol

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## Chinese-Dragon

ptldM3 said:


> Contract and France are like oil and water, they don't mix well. But at the end it looks like India will get their aircraft.



Yep, France broke off their contract with Russia (for the Mistral-class) due to American pressure.

So it is fine, as long as they don't annoy America.


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## GORKHALI

wanglaokan said:


> We have very high-level military cooperation with Pakistan, to deal with any potential threat coming from India side.


History is against you,all you did was ,left pakistan in cold and dark room to get the beating.


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## ashok321

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Only 36??" Is there any plan to get more in future???



I don't like to speculate.
Lets wait for the fine print.

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## SrNair

Thorough Pro said:


> if your bravado makes you feel happy, then be it, but that is not how long term strategic decisions are made. IAF will buy what meets its doctrinal needs in the backdrop of perceived threats. not what Pak or China can afford or not. It's never about the money, but somehow you guys can never come out of it.
> 
> Ones you commit for the 36, you will not go for any new platform, you may however limit it to 36 and acquire more SU30's, but it will not be anything else. It's neither easy nor tactically sound to go for two new similar platforms simultaneously. Setting up maintenance infrastructure, spares, armament would become a nightmare.
> 
> From our PIOV, we would love if you get 3 new platforms. get my point.




Retardness should have some limit .And your post is full of that.
You dont need to butthurt but it is a reality.We are now applying a two prong strategy .Developing our own indigenous tech and buying advanced foreign tech from abroad .
LCA is the manifestation of our own hardwork and indigenous technology .
And Rafale is a crown jewel of most advanced European A/C technology .
So in near future we will have better domestic industry .


That post was correct .

Pakistan's only choice is Chinese because you dont have money .If you have that you would be surely at West camp for at lest EF.
And for Chinese they have a lots of money .but embargo is doing a nice job.

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## ptldM3

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yep, France broke off their contract with Russia (for the Mistral-class) due to American pressure.
> 
> So it is fine, as long as they don't annoy America.




France also gave the british sensitive codes to Mirage fighters, that is why Argentinian Mirages were helplessly shot down by British Harriers. It is off topic, but this thread is off topic. In the end once India gets those Rafales in numbers they will have one of the best equipped air forces in the world regardless of politics.

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## Paranoid Android

Abhijeet Sarkar said:


> RAFALE UPDATE
> Additional 108 Rafale will be built in india as per the mmrca terms.. Which makes a total of 144 birds. 36 off the shelf 108 built here=144.


India to buy 36 Rafale jets in fly away shape, HAL to build 108 after technology transfer | idrw.org



#hydra# said:


> Are u
> 
> Are u sure abt this? 36 rafi costing us some 5 billion dollars,so another 12 billion (may be 20 billion) for mmrca.... Its a huge amount, we are not that much rich.I think mmrca contract is dead.


we are rich
India to buy 36 Rafale jets in fly away shape, HAL to build 108 after technology transfer | idrw.org


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## SrNair

Thorough Pro said:


> if your bravado makes you feel happy, then be it, but that is not how long term strategic decisions are made. IAF will buy what meets its doctrinal needs in the backdrop of perceived threats. not what Pak or China can afford or not. It's never about the money, but somehow you guys can never come out of it.
> 
> Ones you commit for the 36, you will not go for any new platform, you may however limit it to 36 and acquire more SU30's, but it will not be anything else. It's neither easy nor tactically sound to go for two new similar platforms simultaneously. Setting up maintenance infrastructure, spares, armament would become a nightmare.
> 
> From our PIOV, we would love if you get 3 new platforms. get my point.


And IAF selected Rafale not because of their technology but Rafale is advanced version that has a lots of similarities with mirage .And we have mirage .



ptldM3 said:


> France also gave the british sensitive codes to Mirage fighters, that is why Argentinian Mirages were helplessly shot down by British Harriers. It is off topic, but this thread is off topic. In the end once India gets those Rafales in numbers they will have one of the best equipped air forces in the world regardless of politics.



That is why we still looking for a diversified AF until we get our own tech .Su and FGFA is already in there.
for us .

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## ashok321

Rafale deal sealed; India to buy 36 French-made jets - Rediff.com India News

Marking a breakthrough in the protracted talks in the French Rafale jet deal, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced on Friday that India will purchase 36 of these fighter planes that are ready to fly, citing critical operational requirement of the Indian Air Force.

The announcement was made by Modi at a joint news conference with French President Francois Hollange after their summit talks at Elysee palace.

India and France were locked in negotiations for three years over the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets valued at 12 billion USD (around 746 crore) but has been bogged down over cost and Dassault Aviation's reluctance to stand guarantee for 108 planes to be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

*“Keeping in mind critical operational necessity of fighter jets in India, I have talked to him (Hollande) and requested for 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible under government-to-government deal,” Modi said.*

An agreement on proceeding forward on the stalled nuclear project in Jaitapur in Maharashtra was among the *17 pacts *signed after the talks between Modi and Hollande. The Jaitapur project, where French company Areva is to set up six nuclear reactors with total power generation capacity of about 10,000 MW, is stuck for long because of differences over the cost of electricity to be generated.

*The agreement between India's Larsen and Toubro and France's AREVA is aimed at cost reduction by increasing localisation, to improve financial viability of Jaitapur project.*

*Another pact related to Pre-engineering agreements between NPCIL and AREVA in connection with studies that is intended to bring clarity on all technical aspects of the plant so that all parties (AREVA, ALSTOM and NPCIL) can firm up their price and optimise all provisions for risks still included at this stage in the costs of the project.

It will also enable transfer of technology and development of indigenous nuclear energy industry in India.*

*France also informed India of its decision to implement a scheme for expedited 48 hours visa issuance for Indian tourists*.

"There is no such sphere where India and France are not cooperating. France is among India's most valued friend," Modi said.

France also announced an investment of 2 billion euros (about USD 1 billion) in India as Modi invited French companies to pump in money in technology in the fastest growing economy.

France will invest 2 billion euros in India, Hollande announced at a CEO forum in Paris.

*Inviting French investors, Modi said, "There is no bigger market than India. It is also the fastest growing economy since the last six months. Various rating agencies like World Bank and Moodys have said in one voice that India is the fastest growing nation.*




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"It is rare to find a country with a market, with the government determined on development and demographic dividend. Investors are usually worried about the security of intellectual property (IP). Only democracies like India can guarantee that," he said.

Addressing a CEOs forum, Hollande said: "We are ready to allocate through French companies 2 billion euros to support India's sustainable development."

He said France will partner India in Urban development of infrastructure like railways and defence and nuclear sector.

Noting that President Hollande has supported 'Make in India' initiative especially in defence sector, Modi said at the joint news conference that* the two countries have decided that the Rafale jets will be provided to India in modified terms and conditions.*

"Today, we have taken defence cooperation between India and France to new levels."

"I had very good talks with President Hollande. Our defence sector ties are old. In defence equipment and technology. France has always been a reliable supplier. From fighter jets to submarines, our ties have been foremost," he said.

Modi said that in the area of Nuclear power, France has been a major partner with India.

"I am happy that in Jaitapur, we have made progress on setting up 6 nuclear power projects. Both have signed an agreement on reducing the cost of power production and more technical support and further study.

Especially, Areva and L&T have signed an agreement for making forgings in India. I feel this agreement is very significant and will be a perfect example of 'Make in India' and will take India to a new place in the area of advance technology." he said.

On other issues, Modi noted that there is a challenging atmosphere in the world and that there is turbulence in different areas due to which all are affected. "In this changing world, there are a number of uncertain questions on stability."

"Terrorism is spreading and taking new shapes. This challenge is being tackled in different forms and to tackle that an extensive strategy is to be evolved. Be it Paris or Mumbai, India and France have understood each other," Modi said.

The Prime Minister said it is the responsibility of every nation to lend support in the fight against terror and not allow terror groups to take shelter and punish the terrorists as soon as possible.

"India and France similarly views these challenges and that is why we will further strengthen our security ties," he added.

*Image: Prime Minister Narendra Modi with the President of France Francois Hollande in Paris. Photograph: PIB*


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## thesolar65

Some journalist read 36 as 63!!


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## ashok321




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## elitepilot09

Lol.... 126... to 60... to 36... and that too off the shelf.


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## Ammyy

What is the cost??


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## Bang Galore

thesolar65 said:


> Some journalist read 36 as 63!!



Begs the phrase _"chattis ka aakda hai"_

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## SrNair

nair said:


> Where did u get this 144 for from?


Link is in here.


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## Ammyy

elitepilot09 said:


> Lol.... 126... to 60... to 36... and that too off the shelf.



This is on urgent basis, contract for 126 is separate.


----------



## SpArK



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## Pulsar

Donatello said:


> Umm, wait, unless i got that wrong, Isn't India changing the RFP rules itself now.....they wanted 18 in flyaway condition (original tender, regardless of which aircraft was selected) and rest by HAL....seems like even Modi has realized that they were demanding too much.....or expecting too much.


Right! But there was a problem regarding manufacture of the aircraft by HAL. The French wanted to wash their hands of the clause in the contract which mentioned that Dassault would be responsible for the quality of fighters manufactured by HAL which was agreed to and signed. But they backed out of this clause saying that Dassault cannot be held responsible for planes manufactured by HAL.

Secondly there was the issue of price escalation which was exorbitant. However, this issue has now been sorted out. 36 rafales would be bought off the shelf in flyaway condition. The remainder would be built in India by a consortium led by HAL-Dassault.


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## SpArK

Problem was not with HAL, but with the cost of setting up manufacturing facilities in private and state sector from ZeRo along with the logistics which amounted to 8 Billion which added up total cost from 12 to 20 Billion.


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## kaykay

elitepilot09 said:


> Lol.... 126... to 60... to 36... and that too off the shelf.


If you didn't notice, It just got bigger.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586611856367714304

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## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist*‏@livefist

Full text of the section in the India-France joint statement on India's 36 flyaway Rafales proposal.









*Livefist* @livefist · 8h8 hours ago
Effectively, the total number of Rafales being negotiated now is 144: 36 (Flyaway) + 108 (Original number to be license-built by HAL.


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## duhastmish

wanglaokan said:


> We have very high-level military cooperation with Pakistan, to deal with any potential threat coming from India side.



How when where what?

Whhen did u help Pakistan ? Which war?

Lool you bloody selfish basket!

How much was you investment? In Pakistan ?

Who else buy your super military hardware??

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## 帅的一匹

duhastmish said:


> How when where what?
> 
> Whhen did u help Pakistan ? Which war?
> 
> Lool you bloody selfish basket!
> 
> How much was you investment? In Pakistan ?
> 
> Who else buy your super military hardware??


Calm down, we won't let you prevail Pakistan.


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## magudi

wanglaokan said:


> Calm down, we won't let you prevail Pakistan.




Cut the crap

Nobody's prevailing anybody here 

They mind their business we do same for ours 

Just don't spew offtopic BS in thread

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## Ammyy

wanglaokan said:


> Calm down, we won't let you prevail Pakistan.



 Just like you backstab in previous wars??


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## 帅的一匹

magudi said:


> Cut the crap
> 
> Nobody's prevailing anybody here
> 
> They mind their business we do same for ours
> 
> Just don't spew offtopic BS in thread


Pakistan is facing predicment in it's economy, don't tell me you won't bully them if China leave it alone.



Ammyy said:


> Just like you backstab in previous wars??


India is dedicated in backstabbing, see 1962.


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## Ammyy

wanglaokan said:


> India is dedicated in backstabbing, see 1962.



Some thing like Chola incident where you got spanked by India.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Explained: Taking off*
Deviating from the ongoing negotiations with French defence major Dassault Aviation, India on Friday directly asked France to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets instead of 18 in fly-away condition. While the announcement during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ongoing visit to France set the ball rolling for IAF, which has been in desperate need of fighter jets, ambiguity continues over the legalities and the number of aircraft in the multi-billion deal. _Pranav Kulkarni_ explains

_What does this announcement mean?_
Going by the statement, India and France have now agreed to sign an inter-governmental agreement for supply of aircraft on terms that would be “better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation” as part of the separate process underway. This indicates that India and France will now be dealing with the contract on a government-to-government (G-to-G) basis. _*Prima facie, it also marks a success for India which has been negotiating hard for lower price and maintenance besides other aspects of the contract.*_

_How is this different from the original proposal?_
The original proposal involved buying 18 aircraft from Dassault in fly-away condition while the rest 108 were to be manufactured in India under transfer of technology by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). *According to the statement, the number of aircraft to be purchased in fly-away condition has increased to 36. The cost of the 36 aircraft is now pegged at nearly 4 billion Euros. What has also changed is that instead of negotiating with Dassault, the project is now a G-to-G deal.*

_What happens to the role of HAL?_
As per the defence procurement procedure, every contract costing more than Rs 300 crore has an offset obligation of 30 per cent. This means that the manufacturer has to dispose of contracts worth 30 per cent of the cost of the contract to Indian industry. In case of MMRCA, the government had increased offset obligation to 50 per cent which benefitted the Indian industry. Going just by the statement, ambiguity continues over the offset obligation. The role of HAL is also not clear. The contract, in its earlier form, fitted well in the government’s Make in India slogan but now it remains to be seen as to how the government involves Indian industry in the deal.

_When will the aircraft be delivered?_
The government has clearly told France that the aircraft will have to be delivered in “time frame compatible with the operational requirement of IAF”. India has also asked the French government to deliver “the same configuration” that has been tested and approved by IAF. Ideally, as per the original terms, the first 18 aircraft were to be delivered within three years of signing the contract. With changed numbers, the timeframe may change.

_How critical is the contract for IAF?_
Very important. The IAF first expressed interest in the MMRCA in 2001. The Request for Proposal was issued in 2007 and from among six contenders-the Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 Super Hornet, Swedish Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and French Dassault Rafale, the final two contenders — Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted and Rafale was declared lowest bidder in January 2012. From stipulated strength of 42, the IAF is now down to 34 operational squadrons. While a few of its legacy aircraft such as Mirage 2000, Jaguars have been upgraded, others need immediate replacement. The Rafales will thus fill the gap between the yet-to-be inducted LCA Tejas and the frontline Sukhoi fighter jets.

_But why the delay? Is 36 sufficient to fill the number of squadrons?_
No, 36 will be sufficient to create just two squadrons, whereas 126 were to create nearly six squadrons. The clarity on the further agreement will unveil how the IAF plans to meet its operational squadron strength. Meanwhile, Reuters quoted Modi as saying in France that, “the civil servants will discuss the contract in more detail and continue negotiations.” The delay in the contract in the recent past was primarily due to disagreement between Indian Ministry of Defence and Dassault over the guarantee of aircraft manufactured by HAL. While Dassault was reluctant to take responsibility of aircraft manufactured by HAL, India wanted Dassault to take guarantee of the 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL. In February, the two sides clarified that all differences have been sorted out.

Explained: Taking off | The Indian Express


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## migflug

*Calculated political push, not regular process led to Rafale deal; all you need to know*
SOURCE: ECONOMIC TIMES







After a series of twists and turns, a multi-billion dollar deal for new fighter jets for the Air Force has hit the last mile with the NDA government determined to iron out differences and wrap up negotiations with an out-of-the-box solution to end a two-year deadlock.

A test of political will to find an innovative approach to ink a contract that was threatening to get out of hand, but one that had significant strategic and geopolitical implications, has been on display in the lead up to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris, where the Rafale deal has been firmed up along with a memorandum of understanding on joint defence production in India.

The reworked deal—buying 36 fighters outright with the option for more could work out to up to $7.5 billion and scrapping an earlier requirement to manufacture 108 jets in India—has the potential to pump in at least $2.3 billion into the Indian defence manufacturing sector, a major chunk of which will go to the private industry.

While the mega deal—initiated in 2007 with six competitors—had been chugging along since 2012 when Dassault’s Rafale was declared the winner, signs had appeared in the past few weeks that for the first time since coming to power, the NDA government was looking at walking the distance, provided New Delhi did not have to make significant concessions.

Dassault had been struggling to get the contract through in the last year of the UPA, which had gone slow on all defence procurements. The newfound political will in New Delhi, as well as a strong diplomatic push from Paris, offered the final chance to bag an order that was widely classified as the world’s biggest open tender for fighter aircraft.

While many differences had been sorted out, a deadlock persisted for almost two years on two major sticking points. Innovative solutions were needed for both, something that the NDA government is not known to shy away from.

The easier one to sort out was liability for quality and delays in production. As per the original terms, French manufacturer Dassault had responsibility for timely delivery of the fighters as well as technical defects. But as the final negotiations started, the French firm raised the point that in case of delays by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd—nominated to produce the fighter in India—penalties would be unfair.

The other sticking point was pricing. The deal is complex—it involves the calculation of life cycle costs, carries a major technology transfer component to HAL and has a clause that requires Dassault to invest half the value of the contract in India. After negotiations on the transfer of technology and the setting up of a production line in India with HAL, it emerged that the cost that Dassault had projected for the India-made Rafale would be surpassed. The Indian PSU would be required to purchase more equipment, facilities and technology than anticipated to deliver the fighter on time, escalating the costs. Again, a novel solution was needed. One proposal was to divide the cost of the production line as Dassault had offered to use it to make different platforms such as its Falcon executive jets and unmanned aerial vehicles, which are churned out of the same line in France. This would potentially lower the per-unit cost of the Rafale fighter.

While in 2007, the government had assessed the deal at $10 billion, the cost of 126 Rafale fighters had swelled to an estimated $22 billion by 2014.


What worked was a commitment by the government for the outright purchase of 36 jets. This would keep the French company in profit, do away with HAL’s liability issues and meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force, which is battling a crisis with obsolete fighter aircraft.


Going the final mile on the deal meant that some concessions have to be granted by both India and France. Dassault is likely to bend within reason, adhering to the commitments required by India on a fair price for the fighters, even at the cost of a dip in profit. For India, the outright purchase comes at the cost of the Make in India concept.

When it started in 2007, the fighter deal was touted as pivotal to moving modern aerospace and military technology to India. As per the original contract, the winner would have to set up a production line here. The outright purchase of 36 jets with the option for more means that will not happen immediately, although the option remains to manufacture subsequent orders in India.

However, caught between a rock and a hard place—the urgent need for new fighters and the inability to write off exceptions and concessions for the French firm, many of them made by the UPA—the Modi government has gone for the out-ofthe-box solution.

The scrapping of the original contract for 126 fighters is also a subtle message by the government about the UPA’s inability and bungling in dealing with a complex matter. An argument being made is that it would have been impossible to sign the deal in the form that was presented to the NDA government.

There were too many concessions and deviations from the original terms and conditions, which the bureaucracy would have been reluctant to sign off on. This would have forced a political directive or the scrapping of the deal. To offset criticism that the deal does not bring manufacturing and jobs to India, the government is likely to insist that the French company invest 30-50% of the contract value in India and rope in the Indian private sector as a major, global chain supplier to Dassault and its associates. The government also says that manufacturing of greater number of these jets in India is still not ruled out and talks on that could continue over the next few months.

Most of the investments that Dassault will need to make are likely to go to the Indian private sector— from the supply of sub-systems for the Rafale to linking into the global supply chain of Dassault for other products such as commercial jets and combat unmanned aerial vehicles. By conservative estimates, the amount that Dassault is likely to invest to meet offset obligations over the next 5-6 years would be over $2.5 billion.

Other lucrative contracts for maintenance and overhaul of the fighters in India would also be up for grabs—something that HAL and the private sector will need to fight for. Beyond the strategic need for new fighters that will enable the Air Force to maintain a combative edge in the region, the Rafale deal had implications for bilateral relations with France, which has been a reliable partner for India.

The partnership goes beyond defence and extends to civil nuclear cooperation and space. All these aspects were kept in mind while seeking a middle path on the deal—buying the fighters and scrapping the complex process initiated by the previous government.

One thing is clear: The deal has been decided by a carefully calculated political push, not by the regular process or bureaucratic approval.

Aq to this article mmrca has been scrapped???


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## ashok321

_What has also changed is that instead of negotiating with Dassault, the project is now a G-to-G deal._
*
So Dassault paid commission to Sonia/Congress for nothing!
Lol*


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## Suman

SpArK said:


> Problem was not with HAL, but with the cost of setting up manufacturing facilities in private and state sector from ZeRo along with the logistics which amounted to 8 Billion which added up total cost from 12 to 20 Billion.


Its one time investment anyway


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## magudi

ashok321 said:


> _What has also changed is that instead of negotiating with Dassault, the project is now a G-to-G deal._
> *
> So Dassault paid commission to Sonia/Congress for nothing!
> Lol*




Can't say that 

The old deal is still running


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## ashok321

magudi said:


> Can't say that
> 
> The old deal is still running



Albeit with new terms.
Game is just the same.
Rules have changed.


----------



## migflug

*By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th Apr 15*

Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.

“I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.

The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.

Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.

Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.

Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.

With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.

Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.

The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.

Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.

“Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.

If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.

Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.

Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.


It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CN

NO NEWS ON MMRCA.WHAT THE F***K. ALL NEWS REPORTING ABT 36 ONLY ,NOTHING ON MMRCA


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## syedali73

So the number is dropped down to 36 now?

Some interesting comments:


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## 帅的一匹

how long will it takes to deliver 36 Rafale?


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## magudi

ashok321 said:


> Albeit with new terms.
> Game is just the same.
> Rules have changed.




Hope so

These people have come to think of anything related to Gandhi's as tainted


----------



## ashok321

Ok guys.

How many of you think Subramanian Swamy will knock the SC door on Rafale & break his BJP ties?



magudi said:


> Hope so
> 
> These people have come to think of anything related to Gandhi's as tainted



So you think Sonia's 20 billion overseas stash came from thin air?


----------



## migflug

*By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th Apr 15*

Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.

“I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.

The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.

Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.

Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.

Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.

With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.

Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.

The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.

Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.

“Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.

If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.

Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.

Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.


It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CNC.


AGAIN NO NEWS ON MMRCA OR 108 TO BE BUILT IN INDIA.


----------



## magudi

ashok321 said:


> Ok guys.
> 
> How many of you think Subramanian Swamy will knock the SC door on Rafale & break his BJP ties?




Don't know 

Doesn't matter if he does or does not 

Either way it's good for bjp



ashok321 said:


> Ok guys.
> 
> How many of you think Subramanian Swamy will knock the SC door on Rafale & break his BJP ties?
> 
> 
> 
> So you think Sonia's 20 billion overseas stash came from thin air?




No am saying perception of people especially younger generation have changed a lot and that's a good thing . I don't think this generation will ever accept Gandhi's like the old guards used to


----------



## kaykay

@migflug Dont read Ajai Shukla. He was against Rafale deal since start and wanted either F-18s or F-35 for mmrca. Read this by the way for more clarification.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586609217831772161

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## magudi

migflug said:


> *By Ajai Shukla
> Business Standard, 11th Apr 15*
> 
> Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.
> 
> “I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.
> 
> The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.
> 
> Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.
> 
> Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.
> 
> Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.
> 
> With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.
> 
> Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.
> 
> The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.
> 
> Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.
> 
> “Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.
> 
> If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.
> 
> Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.
> 
> Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.
> 
> 
> It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CNC.
> 
> 
> AGAIN NO NEWS ON MMRCA OR 108 TO BE BUILT IN INDIA.




Typical cynicism from shukla

To hell with his analysis


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## kaykay

syedali73 said:


> So the number is dropped down to 36 now?
> 
> Some interesting comments:
> 
> View attachment 214031


Number just got bigger by 18 aircrafts. Now Its for 144 rafales though 36 in fly away conditions.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586611856367714304

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## ashok321

kaykay said:


> Number just got bigger by 18 aircrafts. Now Its for 144 rafales though 36 in fly away conditions.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586611856367714304



So again the liability sword (issue)...


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## Gessler

kaykay said:


> Number just got bigger by 18 aircrafts. Now Its for 144 rafales though 36 in fly away conditions.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586611856367714304



That sounds like music to my ears.


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## ashok321

*3 BSF jawans injured in firing from across the Attari border in Punjab:JUST IN: *


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## Manindra

magudi said:


> Sirjeee happy now?


I think we lose our upper hand in negotiation table


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## ashok321

Manindra said:


> I think we lose our upper hand in negotiation table



What makes you think India *had* a upper hand into this, that might be lost?


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## Mrc

ashok321 said:


> *3 BSF jawans injured in firing from across the Attari border in Punjab:JUST IN: *




How is this related to thus thread?


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## ashok321

Mrc said:


> How is this related to thus thread?



Dont wanna open a new thread for "breaking news"

Status: Read only = No comments.


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## Manindra

ashok321 said:


> What makes you think India *had* a upper hand into this, that might be lost?


To involve L2 bidder EF Consortium or go with more upgraded Su 30 MKI


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## shree835

Pichkari said:


> link de do bhai



Ye Lele Bhai....

India to buy 36 Rafale jets in fly away shape, HAL to build 108 after technology transfer - Firstpost

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## zootinali

kaykay said:


> Number just got bigger by 18 aircrafts. Now Its for 144 rafales though 36 in fly away conditions.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586611856367714304



Hi there is so much confusion. Could you please explain me the following.
1.We are buying 36 jets in flyaway condition, is it just this ? are we going for follow up order for more jets afterwards , if yes than how many ?
2.Are we going to ever buy/construct the original 126 jets ? or if the number is going to be more than that ,as you have mentioned of 144 jets?


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## Ammyy

So that mean final deal yet not signed (not even for 36 Rafales), this is just to increase order value to 36 from 18??

@sancho @Abingdonboy


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## migflug

after reading almost 10 articles and hundreds of views i can say mmrca is dead . there is no confirmation of 108 to be made in india


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## ashok321

Manindra said:


> To involve L2 bidder EF Consortium or go with more upgraded Su 30 MKI



Above are options.
And not a upper hand in the negotiations.


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## zootinali

migflug said:


> after reading almost 10 articles and hundreds of views i can say mmrca is dead . there is no confirmation of 108 to be made in india



I don`t want to hear, that ,after years of negotiations, all we are going to get is just 2 squadron of jets. Serious WTF moment for all of us ,unless someone give us a definite picture of what actually happening.


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## Manindra

ashok321 said:


> Above are options.
> And not a upper hand in the negotiations.


These are arm twisting technique in negotiation.


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## kaykay

migflug said:


> after reading almost 10 articles and hundreds of views i can say mmrca is dead . there is no confirmation of 108 to be made in india


Quoting you second time. Pls read the joint Indo-France statement again which clearly says that there is a separate process underway other than this.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586609217831772161

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## Cry.me.a.River

Manindra said:


> To involve L2 bidder EF Consortium or go with more upgraded Su 30 MKI




That was never on the table.

Negotiation with EF consortium would have taken further 3 more years at optimist best to conclude, and even then it was not guaranteed that they would succeed.

And selection of Su-30 would have defeated the very purpose of getting MMRCA. Su-30 , with all its superiority of Pakii airforce, still is maintenance wh0re which translated into low availability ,does not add anything to industrial capacity, and would have made IAF, Russian Air Force 2.0.



Everyone knew this and once rubicon of 2012 was passed, there was no going back to other options.

+You are assuming that price has not yet been worked out by GoI.


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## Manindra

Cry.me.a.River said:


> That was never on the table.
> 
> Negotiation with EF consortium would have taken further 3 more years at optimist best to conclude, and even then it was not guaranteed that they would succeed.
> 
> And selection of Su-30 would have defeated the very purpose of getting MMRCA. Su-30 , with all its superiority of Pakii airforce, still is maintenance wh0re which translated into low availability ,does not add anything to industrial capacity, and would have made IAF, Russian Air Force 2.0.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone knew this and once rubicon of 2012 was passed, there was no going back to other options.


Everybody know but it was just bargain from french.


----------



## magudi

zootinali said:


> Hi there is so much confusion. Could you please explain me the following.
> 1.We are buying 36 jets in flyaway condition, is it just this ? are we going for follow up order for more jets afterwards , if yes than how many ?
> 2.Are we going to ever buy/construct the original 126 jets ? or if the number is going to be more than that ,as you have mentioned of 144 jets?



Sir, 

We have essentially changed the RFP if i understand correct

Mmrca is not dead, it's still in negotiations 

The new numbers stand at

108 (made in india - negotiations not yet complete ) +36 (ready to fly from France- separate deal - agreed in principle ) + 63 (follow on for later)

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## kaykay

zootinali said:


> Hi there is so much confusion. Could you please explain me the following.
> 1.We are buying 36 jets in flyaway condition, is it just this ? are we going for follow up order for more jets afterwards , if yes than how many ?
> 2.Are we going to ever buy/construct the original 126 jets ? or if the number is going to be more than that ,as you have mentioned of 144 jets?


See this deal is for 36 Rafales in fly away condition and all 36 to be delivered in 4 years. While mmrca negotiations will go on further for 108 rafales to be built by HAL.

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## magudi

zootinali said:


> Hi there is so much confusion. Could you please explain me the following.
> 1.We are buying 36 jets in flyaway condition, is it just this ? are we going for follow up order for more jets afterwards , if yes than how many ?
> 2.Are we going to ever buy/construct the original 126 jets ? or if the number is going to be more than that ,as you have mentioned of 144 jets?



Sir, 

We have essentially changed the RFP if i understand correct

Mmrca is not dead, it's still in negotiations 

The new numbers stand at

108 (made in india - negotiations not yet complete ) +36 (ready to fly from France- separate deal - agreed in principle ) + 63 (follow on for later)


----------



## shree835

wanglaokan said:


> 144 units of Rafale is very decent number, It's a great incentives to our Pakistan friend.
> 
> while India is building up deals, Pakistan shall do something to respond.
> 
> it shall not be only restrained to buy some second handed F16 to cope with Rafale.
> 
> @Horus



Indirectly Chini guys are very happy with this deal…Now pakistani is going to order some china maal… And they will claim so and so chini jet is super duper advance.

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## Cry.me.a.River

Manindra said:


> Everybody know but it was just bargain from french.




When Dassault already knew this, how could we have arm-twisted them by threatening to get Eurofighter or Su-30. They would have known that we are bluffing.


Not buying Rafael would have been equivalent to not buying MMRCA at all. That is a hand we would always have. If Dassault demand unrealistic price for rest of , simply don't but them. 36 Dassault in inventory may cost a little more, but it would be nothing in comparision to $15Bn business that Dassault would lose.

+ This is a deal with Government of France , and though governments only look out for their self interest, they don't spoil relations with other countries for pennies. Bringing GoF in negotiation would have tempering effect on price gouging tendency of Dassault.


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## Manindra

Cry.me.a.River said:


> When Dassault already knew this, how could we have arm-twisted them by threatening to get Eurofighter or Su-30. They would have known that we are bluffing.
> 
> 
> Not buying Rafael would have been equivalent to not buying MMRCA at all. That is a hand we would always have. If Dassault demand unrealistic price for rest of , simply don't but them. 36 Dassault in inventory may cost a little more, but it would be nothing in comparision to $15Bn business that Dassault would lose.
> 
> + This is a deal with Government of France , and though governments only look out for their self interest, they don't spoil relations with other countries for pennies. Bringing GoF in negotiation would have tempering effect on price gouging tendency of Dassault.



more than 100 fighters over $ 120 million a piece does not called pennies so French government does not have much to say in large order.


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## migflug

L


kaykay said:


> Quoting you second time. Pls read the joint Indo-France statement again which clearly says that there is a separate process underway other than this.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586609217831772161


lets hope so .but here also its not clear if seperate process from what. Is it mmrca ? it could even mean govt to govt deal without dassault . We can get many meaning out of it


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## Cry.me.a.River

Manindra said:


> more than 100 fighters over $ 120 million a piece does not called pennies so French government does not have much to say in large order.




The pennies I am talking about is not whole cost of Rafael. GoF would never make Dassault sell Rafael for loss. They would not even make them take a steep cut in profit.

Pennies here is the differential between price the India thinks is justified (we do not expect Dassault to make zero profit) and what Dassault is trying to get from India.



magudi said:


> Sir,
> 
> *We have essentially changed the RFP if i understand correct*
> 
> Mmrca is not dead, it's still in negotiations
> 
> The new numbers stand at
> 
> 108 (made in india - negotiations not yet complete ) +36 (ready to fly from France- separate deal - agreed in principle ) + 63 (follow on for later)



I don't think that.

We had option of buying 18+63 = 81 Rafaels off the shelf. I don't think anyone could take India to court unless we breach that limit of 81.


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## Manindra

Cry.me.a.River said:


> The pennies I am talking about is not whole cost of Rafael. GoF would never make Dassault sell Rafael for loss. They would not even make them take a steep cut in profit.
> 
> Pennies here is the differential between price the India thinks is justified (we do not expect Dassault to make zero profit) and what Dassault is trying to get from India.


Dassault tries to make maximum gain due to ToT clause if it would be off shelf then price drastically came down.
For example, in our Su-30 MKI we import whole raw materials , rivets etc. from Russia thats why HAL built Su-30 MKI cost more than IRKUT built one.


----------



## Cry.me.a.River

syedali73 said:


> So the number is dropped down to 36 now?
> 
> Some interesting comments:
> 
> View attachment 214031




@nair ,

A negative rating is needed for this post. Scumali73 brought his hatred for Hindus into a technical discussion.



Manindra said:


> Dassault tries to make maximum gain due to ToT clause if it would be off shelf then price drastically came down.
> For example, in our Su-30 MKI we import whole raw materials , rivets etc. from Russia thats why HAL built Su-30 MKI cost more than IRKUT built one.




That is understandable.

But in this case Dassault would only be supplying raw material and technical advice , and they would be paid for that (off course they would be making profit on CKD kits too), but the further price increase would be on HALs part.

It is not something that India could not count properly. India would know when they are being price gouged by Dassault.


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## SpArK

Cry.me.a.River said:


> @nair ,
> 
> A negative rating is needed for this post. Scumali73 brought his Hindu hatred into a technical discussion.




Some habits seldom die... 

Report if u find its offensive and move on...

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## Donatello

How many confirmed India buying?

If 36, please change the thread title.


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## 500

Which planes Rafales are replacing? Jaguars? MiG-27?


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## 帅的一匹

shree835 said:


> Indirectly Chini guys are very happy with this deal…Now pakistani is going to order some china maal… And they will claim so and so chini jet is super duper advance.


 pathetic 36 units only, Modi is really frugal.


----------



## Manindra

Cry.me.a.River said:


> @nair ,
> 
> A negative rating is needed for this post. Scumali73 brought his Hindu hatred into a technical discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is understandable.
> 
> But in this case Dassault would only be supplying raw material and technical advice , and they would be paid for that (off course they would be making profit on CKD kits too), but the further price increase would be on HALs part.
> 
> It is not something that India could not count properly. India would know when they are being price gouged by Dassault.



Thats the problem if we make deal like this then this expensive jet become super expensive & not affordable to India.


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## SpArK

wanglaokan said:


> pathetic 36 units only, Modi is really frugal.




We started with lesser number for our sukhois... and this is flyaway... read the thread clearly if u understand english.... total order is now 144

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## Manindra

500 said:


> Which planes Rafales are replacing? Jaguars? MiG-27?


MIG 27

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## 帅的一匹

it takes 8 years for India to get only 36 units Rafales and it only takes less than one year for China to produce same amount of J10b. you guys shall try harder to catch up. we are waiting for you at the finishing line.


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## Cry.me.a.River

Manindra said:


> Thats the problem if we make deal like this then this expensive jet become super expensive & not affordable to India.




I don't think that "built in Rafaels" would cost a lot more (they would cost more but increase in cost would not be more than 10%) than "built in France", and most of the premium would stay in our economy only (I mean with HAL).



Donatello said:


> How many confirmed India buying?
> 
> If 36, please change the thread title.




144.

36 in flyaway condition.


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## Manindra

Cry.me.a.River said:


> I don't think that "built in Rafaels" would cost a lot more (they would cost more but increase in cost would not be more than 10%) than "built in France", and most of the premium would stay in our economy only (I mean with HAL).


Lets see. If this happen then very good

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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> We started with lesser number for our sukhois... and this is flyaway... read the thread clearly if u understand english.... total order is now 144


tell me how long will it takes to get the rest 108 units? I say before year 2025? continue to pay sky high price to update it until you get bled white. sorry, no TOT.


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## Cry.me.a.River

500 said:


> Which planes Rafales are replacing? Jaguars? MiG-27?




Mig 27.

Jaguar had undergone/is undergoing Darin III upgrades. They would not be retired for a decade at least, and would most probably be replaced by AMCA.

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## 帅的一匹

40 years from its first induction and you still can't produce Mig21, just let it crash. well done. don't tell me India stand on the high morale ground and never give shit about reverse it. or you just can't?

the Gap is widening.


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## MilSpec

syedali73 said:


> So the number is dropped down to 36 now?
> 
> Some interesting comments:
> 
> View attachment 214031


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Cry.me.a.River said:


> Mig 27.
> 
> Jaguar had undergone/is undergoing Darin III upgrades. They would not be retired for a decade at least, and would most probably be replaced by AMCA.



As it stands; the Jaguar has a niche role in the IAF's scheme of things: as a low level strike aircraft.
The Rafale comes in at A2G and also A2A roles, much more generalist. Therefore the Rafale will also substitute for the MiG-21 Bis and Bisons, while the MiG-27 is phasing out earlier.

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## kaykay

500 said:


> Which planes Rafales are replacing? Jaguars? MiG-27?


They will replace all 80 Mig-27s(4 sqds) and 3 sqds of Mig-21s. Rest Mig-21s will be replaced by Upcoming 6 sqds of MKIs and 2 sqds of Tejas.

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## Capt.Popeye

MilSpec said:


> ,



Will just a tube be enough???
Looks like a Container-Full will be needed.

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## MilSpec

Capt.Popeye said:


> As it stands; the Jaguar has a niche role in the IAF's scheme of things: as a low level strike aircraft.
> The Rafale comes in at A2G and also A2A roles, much more generalist. Therefore the Rafale will also substitute for the MiG-21 Bis and Bisons, while the MiG-27 is phasing out earlier.



For some reason I keep thinking we are wasting the 27 airframe, With dare III upgrades if we could stick a plain jane Al31F in the 27, it could get a nw lease on life. 23/27 airframe are built like effen Tank, and even though it looks ugly it's a mach 2 air superiority platform underneath all that A2G crap...



Capt.Popeye said:


> Will just a tube be enough???
> Looks like a Container-Full will be needed.


Container pe na jao.... it's a touchy subject here.

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## Capt.Popeye

MilSpec said:


> Fore som reason I keep thinking we are wasting the 27 airframe, With dare III upgrades if we could stick a plain jane Al31F in the 27, it could get a nw lease on life. 23/27 airframe are built like effen Tank, and even though it looks ugly it's a mach 2 air superiority platform underneath all that A2G crap...
> 
> 
> Container pe na jao.... it's a touchy subject here.




The MiG-27 has two issues; the engine which is a major one, from the maintenance stand-point. And the man-machine interface is horrible with flying controls totally out of date. There is only so much that can be done with the air-frame now, the aircraft was good; even revolutionary in its time. Now past its use-by-date.

And yes, I suggested the Container-Load; because deep inside my hard exterior, I am really charitably disposed.

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## Ammyy

wanglaokan said:


> 40 years from its first induction and you still can't produce Mig21, just let it crash. well done. don't tell me India stand on the high morale ground and never give shit about reverse it. or you just can't?
> 
> the Gap is widening.



40 years you start to copy russian jet, till now not able to sell any Chinese aircraft apart from cheap russian copies??


----------



## SRP

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586778147393122304

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## Joseph Goebbels

so can some one tellme whats the final deal and at what cost and other acessiories coming with them



SpArK said:


> We started with lesser number for our sukhois... and this is flyaway... read the thread clearly if u understand english.... total order is now 144


please tell me about the whole details of the latest deal ....thanks in advance Sir !


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## Pichkari

badnam hazza miskin said:


> so can some one tellme whats the final deal and at what cost and other acessiories coming with them


No official word from ministry or IAF but heres what reuteres ,ndtv have reported

1] 36 jets in fly away condition as soon as possible cost and other details still being negotiated
2] MMRCA To take its due course however it may now take more time imo.We do not have that kind of money this financial year.So effectively we will have rafales now in iaf irrespective of whether mmrca negotiations go through or not.

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## Roybot

SRP said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586778147393122304


 
That is good news for the IAF. Hopefully they ll sort out the the MMRCA agreement in the mean time.

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## manishmaithani

wanglaokan said:


> 40 years from its first induction and you still can't produce Mig21, just let it crash. well done. don't tell me India stand on the high morale ground and never give shit about reverse it. or you just can't?
> 
> the Gap is widening.



Somehow you are very right dear but the time has changed and we are also doing the same as Chinese doing but our style is different.this time we want technology.


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## MilSpec

Capt.Popeye said:


> The MiG-27 has two issues; the engine which is a major one, from the maintenance stand-point. And the man-machine interface is horrible with flying controls totally out of date. There is only so much that can be done with the air-frame now, the aircraft was good; even revolutionary in its time. Now past its use-by-date.
> 
> And yes, I suggested the Container-Load; because deep inside my hard exterior, I am really charitably disposed.



To me it was quite unfortunate to learn about r29's stress induced fatigue crack propagation, To me it was always a screamer of an engine.
The DARE III upgraded aircraft has a pilot friendly cockpit with state-of-Art Multi Function Display (MFD) and Head Up Display (HUD). The pilot flies "Head Up" with all the necessary NAV and attack guidance symbology presented on the HUD and superimposed on the outside world view. The Integrated Flight and Weapon Control System of the upgraded aircraft enables Hands Free (Auto Pilot) Route Flying and Auto-Weapon delivery.

Well now the IAF seems to have made up it's mind to replace Mig27M functions with MKI, so looks like it's going to be goodbye to the bahadur.


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## Capt.Popeye

MilSpec said:


> To me it was quite unfortunate to learn about r29's stress induced fatigue crack propagation, To me it was always a screamer of an engine.
> The DARE III upgraded aircraft has a pilot friendly cockpit with state-of-Art Multi Function Display (MFD) and Head Up Display (HUD). The pilot flies "Head Up" with all the necessary NAV and attack guidance symbology presented on the HUD and superimposed on the outside world view. The Integrated Flight and Weapon Control System of the upgraded aircraft enables Hands Free (Auto Pilot) Route Flying and Auto-Weapon delivery.
> 
> Well now the IAF seems to have made up it's mind to replace Mig27M functions with MKI, so looks like it's going to be goodbye to the bahadur.



Its only the instrumentation that has been changed there, but the flying control surfaces are the same. In these days of FBW, that is hardly an incentive to fliers. 
While the Engine issues had pissed off the Russians too.
Anyway the Bahadur is passing into history.

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## Abingdonboy

Ammyy said:


> So that mean final deal yet not signed (not even for 36 Rafales), this is just to increase order value to 36 from 18??
> 
> @sancho @Abingdonboy


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has stated today these Rafales will be in service within two years

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## Ammyy

Abingdonboy said:


> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has stated today these Rafales will be in service within two years



Yeh just read that tweet, is this really possible to manufacture 36 Rafales in 2 years?

Keeping in mind that final decision for contact/money not signed yet.


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## Gandhi follower

12:03 PM Rafale to be inducted in IAF in a span of two years: Parrikar: 

Hailing Prime Minister narendra Modi's announcement that India will purchase 36 of these fighter planes that are ready to fly, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that the deal is a great decision taken on the terms and conditions that are better.

"India has finally broken the ice over the deal which hasbeen pending for the last 17 years. The fighter jets will be inducted in the IAF in a span of two years," he said.


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## ito

The number of Rafale is 36 + 108 or 144

The title should be changed to reflect the new number

@MilSpec @SpArK


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## The_Sidewinder

@SuperSubrayan
bro, change the title of the thread.

On public demand off cource..

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## Assault Rifle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586778147393122304

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## Capt.Popeye

Ammyy said:


> Yeh just read that tweet, is this really possible to manufacture 36 Rafales in 2 years?
> 
> Keeping in mind that final decision for contact/money not signed yet.




Why??? Those jet will not be made by HAL. They will come off the Dassault production line which is already up and running.


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## Ammyy

So all 36 will be delivered within 2 years or they will start delivery of first batch within 2 years?


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## Ammyy

Capt.Popeye said:


> Why??? Those jet will not be made by HAL. They will come off the Dassault production line which is already up and running.



So increase the production for 18 more aircraft per year and that too for only 2 years is possible?


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## Indian Patriot

2 years is too optimistic, will take six years in the least.


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## Capt.Popeye

Ammyy said:


> So increase the production for 18 more aircraft per year and that too for only 2 years is possible?



Aw, c'mon; just check how many pending orders are there with Dassault and also check what their production capacity is.


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## Bang Galore

ito said:


> The number of Rafale is 36 + 108 or 144



Nobody knows what the heck is happening. Better to wait for the bigger number to be announced (if at all) than to go by assumption. This is a crazy deal, nobody has any idea what is really happening.


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## IND151

Ammyy said:


> So all 36 will be delivered within 2 years or they will start delivery of first batch within 2 years?



Later must be the case.


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## ito

Bang Galore said:


> Nobody knows what the heck is happening. Better to wait for the bigger number to be announced (if at all) than to go by assumption. This is a crazy deal, nobody has any idea what is really happening.



I was watching NDTV. This the figure quoted by them.


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## Bang Galore

ito said:


> I was watching NDTV. This the figure quoted by them.



You watch/read enough sources, your brains will run right outside of your head. There is so much crazy, contradictory information, don't think anyone knows for sure.

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## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> 2 years is too optimistic, will take six years in the least.


Current rate of Rafale production is 11 which would increase 2.5 fold if they got order which turn 28 or 27 jet a year.
They have to deliver 24 jets to Egypt & 36 jets to IAF.
Why do you think they can't complete within 2 years?

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## IND151

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 59


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## magudi

It's the first batch that he's talking about 

There's no effing way 36 can be inducted in two years from now


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## Dash

Bang Galore said:


> Nobody knows what the heck is happening. Better to wait for the bigger number to be announced (if at all) than to go by assumption. This is a crazy deal, nobody has any idea what is really happening.



I guess PMO wants to save the force depletion first, shut the shouting and demand for jets and proceed with usual negotiations. If this is the line of action then I say it's a good one

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## ito

Dash said:


> I guess PMO wants to save the force depletion first, shut the shouting and demand for jets and proceed with usual negotiations. If this is the line of action then I say it's a good one



Yes, this the line of action.

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## doppelganger

He says they are to be inducted in a span of two years.

He says nothing about when that span starts.

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## Ammyy

Manindra said:


> Current rate of Rafale production is 11 which would increase 2.5 fold if they got order which turn 28 or 27 jet a year.
> They have to deliver 24 jets to Egypt & 36 jets to IAF.
> Why do you think they can't complete within 2 years?



Well buddy this is really a great news for India and IAF but let not be too much optimistic 



> As of 2012, the fabrication process of *each fighter took 24 months*, with an annual production rate of eleven aircraft



Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So if they start to produce all 36 today then it will take two years to deliver them... that is not possible.

I think 3.5 years will deliver them all.


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## Indian Patriot

Manindra said:


> Why do you think they can't complete within 2 years?



Indian lethargy. 

The Scorpenes should have been inducted by now, only 1 has been complete. Artillery guns undergoing trials for past 15 years, and will continue to be on trial. Same will be true for Rafale.


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## Matrixx

Manindra said:


> Current rate of Rafale production is 11 which would increase 2.5 fold if they got order which turn 28 or 27 jet a year.
> They have to deliver 24 jets to Egypt & 36 jets to IAF.
> Why do you think they can't complete within 2 years?


@ 11 / year ....it would take around 3 years ....but 1st yr itself we can have 10-12 Rafale.....Great


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## Indian Patriot

Manindra said:


> Current rate of Rafale production is 11 which would increase 2.5 fold if they got order which turn 28 or 27 jet a year.



28-27 jets a year is not possible. Not unless France is under attack and their economy is on a war footing.


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## Cry.me.a.River

Capt.Popeye said:


> As it stands; the Jaguar has a niche role in the IAF's scheme of things: as a low level strike aircraft.
> The Rafale comes in at A2G and also A2A roles, much more generalist. Therefore the Rafale will also substitute for the MiG-21 Bis and Bisons, while the MiG-27 is phasing out earlier.




But sir, A Rafael (probably even Su-30MKI) could perform low level strike. So Jaguar's role is not irreplaceable.


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## Ammyy

Ammyy said:


> Well buddy this is really a great news for India and IAF but let not be too much optimistic
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> So if they start to produce all 36 today then it will take two years to deliver them... that is not possible.
> 
> I think 3.5 years will deliver them all.




So with this rate first aircraft/batch will arrive in India 2 year after signing the deal....


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## Manindra

Ammyy said:


> Well buddy this is really a great news for India and IAF but let not be too much optimistic
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> So if they start to produce all 36 today then it will take two years to deliver them... that is not possible.
> 
> I think 3.5 years will deliver them all.





> A Reuters report indicates that Dassault Aviation is in talks once more with UAE to replace its fighters.* Dassault indicated it could ramp production up from one per month to 2.5 per month in the face of export orders.*


France’s Rafale: UAE Deal Back on Boards

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## IND151

India's purchase of 36 French-made Rafale jets unveiled on Friday is not part of a larger order still being negotiated between the two countries, a French defense ministry source said.

The purchase of the Dassault Aviation planes, announced by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris, remains "separate from the tender under discussion for three years," the source said.

The value of the larger 126-plance deal being negotiated is estimated to have grown to about $20 billion from an initial $12 billion, primarily because of an Indian requirement that 108 of the jets be built in the country.

India's Rafale jet deal separate from talks on bigger order: source| Reuters

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## Dash

Bang Galore said:


> You watch/read enough sources, your brains will run right outside of your head. There is so much crazy, contradictory information, don't think anyone knows for sure.





Bang Galore said:


> You watch/read enough sources, your brains will run right outside of your head. There is so much crazy, contradictory information, don't think anyone knows for sure.



Just read the joint statement .confirmed


----------



## IND151

India to buy 36 Rafale jets in fly away shape, HAL to build 108 after technology transfer - Firstpost

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## Ammyy

Manindra said:


> France’s Rafale: UAE Deal Back on Boards



Ok they can increase production rate but as I posted fabrication take 24 months per aircraft so they have to start manufacturing all 36 at the same time to deliver them in 2 years.


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## Capt.Popeye

Cry.me.a.River said:


> But sir, A Rafael (probably even Su-30MKI) could perform low level strike. So Jaguar's role is not irreplaceable.



I am afraid that you are not conversant with the facts. The design of the Jaguar is better optimised for low level performance. The others can fly low, but will not perform as well. Look at the respective wing designs. That is the key, apart from other things.
The Jaguar performs much better at low and slow performance which is key to its role.

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## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> Indian lethargy.
> 
> The Scorpenes should have been inducted by now, only 1 has been complete. Artillery guns undergoing trials for past 15 years, and will continue to be on trial. Same will be true for Rafale.



Its off shelf , so no problem, main problem is remaining 108.
It may be Jaguar like situation. UK retire their Jaguars in 2004 & we churning out Jaguars from HAL production line till 2008.



Indian Patriot said:


> 28-27 jets a year is not possible. Not unless France is under attack and their economy is on a war footing.


They keep production lowest economical viable due to lack of export orders.
28 aircrafts are not a big deal like France.
You should check F-35 production rate schedule 1 aircraft a day 



Ammyy said:


> Ok they can increase production rate but as I posted fabrication take 24 months per aircraft so they have to start manufacturing all 36 at the same time to deliver them in 2 years.


As I previously posted production rate was minimum economical viable due to lack of exports order
Even our HAL churn out massive Su-30 MKI with 15 per year rate.


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## Indian Patriot

Manindra said:


> Its off shelf , so no problem, main problem is remaining 108.



Off the shelf means purchasing fighters already manufactured. Is France so confident that they have already manufactured 36 fighters and waiting for India to come and take them?

And there is no 108. The whole MMRCA deal is scrapped off. India is reportedly in talks for 60 Rafales and that is it. 



Manindra said:


> *It may be Jaguar like situation*. UK retire their Jaguars in 2004 & we churning out Jaguars from HAL production line till 2008.



No it is not. 



Manindra said:


> They keep production lowest economical viable due to lack of export orders.
> 28 aircrafts are not a big deal like France.



In modern age, building 28 aircrafts a years is simply NOT possible. 



Manindra said:


> You should check F-35 production rate schedule 1 aircraft a day



You should check the difference in defence budget between US and France. Also the difference in industrial muscle.


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## Srinivas

In two years time if India and France agree on MMRCA deal then India can initiate the production setup here, mean while India can train its pilots.

so it took almost 10 years to decide and buy a fighter jet.

For a country like India , it do not make sense to buy fighter jets, we need a solid arms industry and we need R&D.

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## SuperSubrayan

The_Sidewinder said:


> @SuperSubrayan
> bro, change the title of the thread.
> 
> On public demand off cource..



Meri bhai thread is now out of my control MoD should do it  I don't see any edit tool for tittle ... 

@WebMaster ! @sancho @Oscar ??? CAN YOU REPLACE THE HEADER ? With : India buys 36 Rafale from France ! News and updates .

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## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> In modern age, building 28 aircrafts a years is simply NOT possible.



I cannot comment on you such ignorant remark 
@MilSpec @sancho @Capt.Popeye @Oscar can you help him

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## Manindra

wanglaokan said:


> 40 years from its first induction and you still can't produce Mig21, just let it crash. well done. don't tell me India stand on the high morale ground and never give shit about reverse it. or you just can't?
> 
> the Gap is widening.



PLAAF still have MIG 15 & MIG 19

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## SuperSubrayan

Our thread has become Mother of all Threads


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## Indian Patriot

Manindra said:


> I cannot comment on you such ignorant remark
> @MilSpec @sancho @Capt.Popeye @Oscar can you help him



It is futile to argue with people blinded on nationalist fervor. Wait and watch, that is the only cure for fools like you. The 36 Rafales will not be inducted before 2020.


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## indianBong

IND151 said:


> India's purchase of 36 French-made Rafale jets unveiled on Friday is not part of a larger order still being negotiated between the two countries, a French defense ministry source said.
> 
> The purchase of the Dassault Aviation planes, announced by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris, remains "separate from the tender under discussion for three years," the source said.
> 
> The value of the larger 126-plance deal being negotiated is estimated to have grown to about $20 billion from an initial $12 billion, primarily because of an Indian requirement that 108 of the jets be built in the country.
> 
> India's Rafale jet deal separate from talks on bigger order: source| Reuters



144 from previous 126...... sir, why is this increase???? and what about future procurements of FGFA??


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## MilSpec

Manindra said:


> I cannot comment on you such ignorant remark
> @MilSpec @sancho @Capt.Popeye @Oscar can you help him


Not me. I am going to ignore

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## Rau

indianBong said:


> 144 from previous 126...... sir, why is this increase???? and what about future procurements of FGFA??


Can we assume increase in number means may delay in induction of FGFA...


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## indianBong

Rau said:


> Can we assume increase in number means may delay in induction of FGFA...



exactly... thats what i am pointing out.....


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## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> It is futile to argue with people blinded on nationalist fervor. Wait and watch, that is the only cure for fools like you. The 36 Rafales will not be inducted before 2020.


Stupidity have no limits 
HAL with many manual method produce 15 MKI per year
LM would produce more than 300 F-35 per year
But Dassault with 100 years of experience & advance production technique cannot produce 28 a year


> A Reuters report indicates that Dassault Aviation is in talks once more with UAE to replace its fighters.* Dassault indicated it could ramp production up from one per month to 2.5 per month in the face of export orders.*


France’s Rafale: UAE Deal Back on Boards

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## IND151

Rau said:


> Can we assume increase in number means may delay in induction of FGFA...



Maybe


----------



## 帅的一匹

Manindra said:


> PLAAF still have MIG 15 & MIG 19


Lol, come on!


----------



## kaku1

Indian Patriot said:


> In modern age, building 28 aircrafts a years is simply NOT possible.



So, it was possible in Stone Age?



Indian Patriot said:


> You should check the difference in defence budget between US and France. Also the difference in industrial muscle.


We are weaker than both. So, how India going to achieve 20 LCA/year?

You remember anything about supply and demand problem?

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## Matrixx

ok


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## Manindra

wanglaokan said:


> Lol, come on!


When you unable to retire your older than MIG 21 aircrafts from PLAAF inventory how can you expect IAF to do that.


----------



## Dash

Modi is bringing ancient Indian diplomacy to a new level. Indians have always tried to connect with people than 'contact'.

I'm liking it


----------



## 帅的一匹

Manindra said:


> When you unable to retire your older than MIG 21 aircrafts from PLAAF inventory how can you expect IAF to do that.


i think you mean F7.


----------



## Manindra

wanglaokan said:


> i think you mean F7.


Yes plus
Nanchang Q-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## SuperSubrayan

BREAKING NEWS : Just watched our defence Minister's latest response on rafale deal .

This is what he said and Surprise is there too .... 

DM : We have purchased 36 Rafale is fly away conditions. And more Aircraft will be made in India for medium multi role purpose. It would be any fighters Rafale or other. I don't want to go into it. Since for the past 14 years from 2000 we haven't inducted any major Advanced aircraft. So we will looking at adding more Advanced jets . Rafale is 4+ generation aircraft (very capabcapable is what he ment) 

We have well upgraded jets like Mig 29 mirages etc all are 3rd gen fighters .

Surprise statement on Tejas : He said our own Tejas light combat Multi role aircraft will go through final test flight next month. So within a month or two all issues will be sorted out . And major induction process will begin  

Tejas to complete all certifications in 1/2 months . This is what he said ?

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## Parul

Dash said:


> Modi is bringing ancient Indian diplomacy to a new level. Indians have always tried to connect with people than 'contact'.
> 
> *I'm liking it*

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## Indian Patriot

Manindra said:


> But Dassault with 100 years of experience & advance production technique cannot produce 28 a year



The only cure for deluded people like you is patience. Wait and see how long it takes.



Manindra said:


> LM would produce more than 300 F-35 per year



LM has not produced 300 F-35 a year and the F-35 program itself is under a big question mark. Where do you get your info from?



Manindra said:


> HAL with many manual method produce 15 MKI per year



Can HAL manufacture MKI and other aircraft at the same time?


----------



## Abingdonboy

144 or 207 (with the follow on clause of 63 being exercised).



indianBong said:


> 144 from previous 126...... sir, why is this increase???? and what about future procurements of FGFA??


An additional 18 are being procured in a flyway condition from France 144-126=18.



Rau said:


> Can we assume increase in number means may delay in induction of FGFA...


Perhaps but the DM also said he was pushing for the FGFA to be fast tracked, the Rafale will just about cover the immediate needs of the IAF until around 2025 and is not really a substitute for the FGFA but will buy some breathing room for them and stem the declining Sqn strength.

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## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> The only cure for deluded people like you is patience. Wait and see how long it takes.


Good until you not banned.
But what about the link I am given for backup my claim (& Its not from TOI or IDRW )?


----------



## Indian Patriot

Manindra said:


> Stupidity have no limits



The irony.


----------



## sree45

Once we start producing them, the numbers are definitely going to rise.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Indian Patriot said:


> It is futile to argue with people blinded on nationalist fervor. Wait and watch, that is the only cure for fools like you. The 36 Rafales will not be inducted before 2020.



There is no cure for being an imbecile.

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## SRP

This is umpteenth thread on same topic.


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## Skull and Bones

Don't forget the optional 63, my nigga.

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## Indian Patriot

Manindra said:


> Good until you not banned.
> But what about the link I am given for backup my claim (& Its not from TOI or IDRW )?



Banned for what? For calling your tall claims as BS? 

If you think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in two years its your problem not others. People like you can only comment on banning others for having a different opinion. Way to go.



Skull and Bones said:


> There is no cure for being an imbecile.



Another emotional troll trying to get personal. What a bunch of jokers.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Indian Patriot said:


> Another emotional troll trying to get personal. What a bunch of jokers.



Kid, when i joined defense forum, you were still in your diapers.

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## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> LM has not produced 300 F-35 a year and the F-35 program itself is under a big question mark. Where do you get your info from?


F-35 factory: One aircraft per day by 2016


----------



## Indian Patriot

Skull and Bones said:


> Kid, when i joined defense forum, you were still in your diapers.



Your language shows your maturity level. If you cannot cannot talk in a decent manner and lack the maturity then I suggest you refrain from commenting.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Indian Patriot said:


> Indian lethargy.
> 
> The Scorpenes should have been inducted by now, only 1 has been complete. Artillery guns undergoing trials for past 15 years, and will continue to be on trial. Same will be true for Rafale.


Except there is no ToT issues here, no issues with setting up production and no delays in sourcing supplies from the OEM because the 36 are coming directly from the OEM! In Modi's statement he said the French offered very good terms for this sale of 36 which includes fast track production. 


Dassault have already said they can ramp up production to 2.5 Rafales a month i.e. 30 Rafales a year and now they have three customers (four if you count the French Navy as separate tot eh French Air Force).


----------



## Skull and Bones

Indian Patriot said:


> Your language shows your maturity level. If you cannot cannot talk in a decent manner and lack the maturity then I suggest you refrain from commenting.



Lolwa

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## The_Sidewinder

SuperSubrayan said:


> BREAKING NEWS : Just watched our defence Minister's latest response on rafale deal .
> 
> This is what he said and Surprise is there too ....
> 
> DM : We have purchased 36 Rafale is fly away conditions. And more Aircraft will be made in India for medium multi role purpose. It would be any fighters Rafale or other. I don't want to go into it. Since for the past 14 years from 2000 we haven't inducted any major Advanced aircraft. So we will looking at adding more Advanced jets . Rafale is 4+ generation aircraft (very capabcapable is what he ment)
> 
> We have well upgraded jets like Mig 29 mirages etc all are 3rd gen fighters .
> 
> Surprise statement on Tejas : He said our own Tejas light combat Multi role aircraft will go through final test flight next month. So within a month or two all issues will be sorted out . And major induction process will begin
> 
> Tejas to complete all certifications in 1/2 months . This is what he said ?




  Boooohhooo thats a news for. Tejas getting FOC & its fast induction will enebale IAF to replenish atleast 5-6 squadrons by 2018. Add to that Sukhois rolling out from HAL. Next few years will be best years for IAF.

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## Rau

Abingdonboy said:


> Perhaps but the DM also said he was pushing for the FGFA to be fast tracked, the Rafale will just about cover the immediate needs of the IAF until around 2025 and is not really a substitute for the FGFA but will buy some breathing room for them and stem the declining Sqn strength.


Exactly, This increase in number will give breathing room even if delay in FGFA......about DM statement...I dont think its in his hands actually not in India's hands...its totally in Russia's R & D department which is are under financial crunch as well as technical hiccup....


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## kaku1

Rau said:


> Exactly, This increase in number will give breathing room even if delay in FGFA......about DM statement...I dont think its in his hands actually not in India's hands...its totally in Russia's R & D department which is are under financial crunch as well as technical hiccup....



The FGFA production in no way going to start before 2022, and induction by 2025.


----------



## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> Can HAL manufacture MKI and other aircraft at the same time?


Why not,
Didn't they manufacture Gnat, HF-24 Marut, MIG 21, MIG 27 & Jaguar same time.
So does Sukhoi 30 MKI, AJT Hawk & may be LCA , IJT & HTT 40 at same time
In future, Rafale, PAKFA & AMCA at same time

But with separate production facility.

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## Abingdonboy

Indian Patriot said:


> And there is no 108. The whole MMRCA deal is scrapped off. India is reportedly in talks for 60 Rafales and that is it.


Wrong again

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586611856367714304

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586579091261784064

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## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> Banned for what? For calling your tall claims as BS?
> If you think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in two years its your problem not others. People like you can only comment on banning others for having a different opinion. Way to go./QUOTE]


I am more happy if you not banned to badmouthing other till 2017 last to 2018 first when I would quote you if this dea signed immediately .


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## Dash

@Indian Patriot 

please know something about french prod lines and I'm sure on the basis what I know they can produce 36 planes on 2 years. And mind you it's a FMS deal, means you can comitt what you can deliver and it's not a joke


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## Manindra

Indian Patriot said:


> The irony.


May be for you


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## Rau

kaku1 said:


> The FGFA production in no way going to start before 2022, and induction by 2025.


Thinking same...so, till then our force mostly be 4++ and 4 generation plane....


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## migflug

SuperSubrayan said:


> BREAKING NEWS : Just watched our defence Minister's latest response on rafale deal .
> 
> This is what he said and Surprise is there too ....
> 
> DM : We have purchased 36 Rafale is fly away conditions. And more Aircraft will be made in India for medium multi role purpose. It would be any fighters Rafale or other. I don't want to go into it. Since for the past 14 years from 2000 we haven't inducted any major Advanced aircraft. So we will looking at adding more Advanced jets . Rafale is 4+ generation aircraft (very capabcapable is what he ment)
> 
> We have well upgraded jets like Mig 29 mirages etc all are 3rd gen fighters .
> 
> Surprise statement on Tejas : He said our own Tejas light combat Multi role aircraft will go through final test flight next month. So within a month or two all issues will be sorted out . And major induction process will begin
> 
> Tejas to complete all certifications in 1/2 months . This is what he said ?


So even govt confused abt mmrca.wow


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## MilSpec

Indian Patriot said:


> Can HAL manufacture MKI and other aircraft at the same time?


HAL manufactures MKI's, ovehauls Mig 27's and mig 21 bisons, ALH undercarriage and PSLV subsystems in Nasik division.
In the same time frame HAL Banglore complex manufactured Jaguar, ALH and AJT, and ovehauled Cheetah and Chetak,
Hope that answers your query

Before that.
HAL Nasik Division produced at one time around 30 Mig21 in a year, HAL nasik division also produced Mig21, Mig 23 CKD assm, and Mig27 at the same time.

HAL korput div produced R29, Adour, R25, simultaneously.

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## Abingdonboy

kaku1 said:


> The FGFA production in no way going to start before 2022, and induction by 2025.


From what I can see today I think 2022 is the current deadline for FGFA to enter IAF service but this is open to change- it _could_ be brought forward (if the DM comes good on his promise to "fast track" the FGFA deal- don't hold your breath).



Rau said:


> Exactly, This increase in number will give breathing room even if delay in FGFA......about DM statement...I dont think its in his hands actually not in India's hands...its totally in Russia's R & D department which is are under financial crunch as well as technical hiccup....


You're right about that, the trouble is on the Russian end and I have a sinking feeling they are going to take India for a ride, if we thought Vikramditya was a saga we haven't seen anything yet...

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## janon

I am of the opinion that the Rafale is too expensive for us, but if we are buying them, let's buy them in large numbers, so that the cost of training, infra etc can be used more. Buying just 36 would be as stupid as can be. We made the same mistake with the mirage-2K, buying just 50 of them.

Buying one more squadron directly from France also makes sense, in view of the declining squadron strength.


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## Indian Patriot

Abingdonboy said:


> Except there is no ToT issues here, no issues with setting up production and no delays in sourcing supplies from the OEM because the 36 are coming directly from the OEM! In Modi's statement he said the French offered very good terms for this sale of 36 which includes fast track production.
> 
> 
> Dassault have already said they can ramp up production to 2.5 Rafales a month i.e. 30 Rafales a year and now they have three customers (four if you count the French Navy as separate tot eh French Air Force).



Firstly it depends whether the jets will be manufactured in India or in France. That is the very first question. If the jets will be made in India then I pity those people who think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in 2 years. They are just amateurs who watch too many action movies.

The reason MMRCA deal got botched was cost issues and the friction with ToT. 

Yes Dassault MAY ramp up production. There is no hard clause signed that they will definitely do that and guarantee that 36 Rafales will be supplied to India in a span of two years. That is the first point.

Second point here is if and it is a big IF Dassault does produce 30 aircraft a year will those aircraft be meant exclusively for India or will there be other customers as well. Will Dassault put on hold other customers just to satisfy India or will they plan things according to their own schedule? 

Will French Airforce, their navy and others be waiting on standby till the Indian order is fulfilled?

That is why I am saying wait and watch. If inducting aircrafts in an airforce was such an easy task then it would have been done so by now. India takes her time when it comes to defence procurement and being an India you should be knowing that only too well. Assault rifles, Arty guns, tanks etc. are all still waiting to be inducted even though the process was started years ago.


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## Abingdonboy

janon said:


> I am of the opinion that the Rafale is too expensive for us, but if we are buying them, let's buy them in large numbers, so that the cost of training, infra etc can be used more. Buying just 36 would be as stupid as can be. We made the same mistake with the mirage-2K, buying just 50 of them.
> 
> Buying one more squadron directly from France also makes sense, in view of the declining squadron strength.


Maybe a little expensive upfront (but then these days you don't get much change from $100 million for the latest batch of Super MKIs with the ability to launch the Brahmos-A) but the Rafales pay for themselves in the savings over the span of their lives (offering 20-25% more availability whilst being 30-40% cheaper to run). And with a combined CAPEX/OPEX budget of $620 billion to spend between 2014-2022 and India now growing at 7.5%+ a year the money is there.


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## Dash

janon said:


> I am of the opinion that the Rafale is too expensive for us, but if we are buying them, let's buy them in large numbers, so that the cost of training, infra etc can be used more. Buying just 36 would be as stupid as can be. We made the same mistake with the mirage-2K, buying just 50 of them.
> 
> Buying one more squadron directly from France also makes sense, in view of the declining squadron strength.



Could be. But essentially better. when it comes to security we might and for the time we are not selfsuffecient. This is the way. However it's a stop gap check and we need to trust our generals


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## Abingdonboy

Indian Patriot said:


> Firstly it depends whether the jets will be manufactured in India or in France. That is the very first question. If the jets will be made in India then I pity those people who think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in 2 years. They are just amateurs who watch too many action movies.


have you been following this news even from a distance? All that was announced yesterday was a deal for 36 Rafales DIRECTLY FROM FRANCE ASAP- the words of the Prime Minister of India no less.



Indian Patriot said:


> Yes Dassault MAY ramp up production. There is no hard clause signed that they will definitely do that and guarantee that 36 Rafales will be supplied to India in a span of two years. That is the first point.


Neither of us know the details of the agreement they signed for this 36 but if the Defence Minister of India is saying two years then I am going to believe him, he is FAR more informed on these matters the any of us sat behind a keyboard. 



Indian Patriot said:


> Will French Airforce, their navy and others be waiting on standby till the Indian order is fulfilled?


To meet the needs of Egypt planes earmarked for the FrAF are being delivered direct to Egypt so yes, if you get the right deal from the French government anything is possible and note here this deal for 36 was SEPARATE from the MMRCA and a direct govt-govt deal so it is plausible such guarantees were made to the GoI.


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## kaykay

Indian Patriot said:


> Firstly it depends whether the jets will be manufactured in India or in France. That is the very first question. If the jets will be made in India then I pity those people who think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in 2 years. They are just amateurs who watch too many action movies.
> 
> The reason MMRCA deal got botched was cost issues and the friction with ToT.
> 
> Yes Dassault MAY ramp up production. There is no hard clause signed that they will definitely do that and guarantee that 36 Rafales will be supplied to India in a span of two years. That is the first point.
> 
> Second point here is if and it is a big IF Dassault does produce 30 aircraft a year will those aircraft be meant exclusively for India or will there be other customers as well. Will Dassault put on hold other customers just to satisfy India or will they plan things according to their own schedule?
> 
> Will French Airforce, their navy and others be waiting on standby till the Indian order is fulfilled?
> 
> That is why I am saying wait and watch. If inducting aircrafts in an airforce was such an easy task then it would have been done so by now. India takes her time when it comes to defence procurement and being an India you should be knowing that only too well. Assault rifles, Arty guns, tanks etc. are all still waiting to be inducted even though the process was started years ago.


I think you are arguing without even proper info. Whole point of this 36 rafale deal is to get them from France off the shelves. Where is the question of manufacturing them in India then? What India will manufacture is remaining 108 rafales which are under negotiations.


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## axisofevil

HAL better start incorporating cutting edge tech for manufacturing, we should do our best to limit manual work wherever we can. Mainly to address uniformity,quality control issues, reliability, faster output , etc.


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## axisofevil

Abingdonboy said:


> From what I can see today I think 2022 is the current deadline for FGFA to enter IAF service but this is open to change- it _could_ be brought forward (if the DM comes good on his promise to "fast track" the FGFA deal- don't hold your breath).
> 
> 
> You're right about that, the trouble is on the Russian end and I have a sinking feeling they are going to take India for a ride, if we thought Vikramditya was a saga we haven't seen anything yet...





Russia is in a fragile state, it can be squeezed by Chinese interests.....that is an issue...


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## Joseph Goebbels

The_Sidewinder said:


> Boooohhooo thats a news for. Tejas getting FOC & its fast induction will enebale IAF to replenish atleast 5-6 squadrons by 2018. Add to that Sukhois rolling out from HAL. Next few years will be best years for IAF.


so you mean PLAAF& PAF might attack India anytime before "next two years"  

Oh My God Im soooooooo scarred


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## MilSpec

axisofevil said:


> HAL better start incorporating cutting edge tech for manufacturing, we should do our best to limit manual work wherever we can. Mainly to address uniformity,quality control issues, reliability, faster output , etc.


You think MKI are built by blacksmiths with hammers and chisels? Let me remind you HAL Nasik division houses Asia's second largest CNC complex.
HAL's copq is a worrying issue, but much better than the private industry in India, In other words, HAL still is the manufacturing GIANT in India.

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## 45'22'

So the summary is 
1-We will be buying 36 off the shelves Rafales from France at the cost of 4 billion euros(under negotiations) under the G2G deal
so per unit cost will be around 120million $ which is good and will be getting them in a span of 2 years which is also good for our depleting forces.

2-the original deal of 126 rafales has been decreased to 108 which if signed will be manufactured by HAL under ToT.If the deal goes through then we can manufacture another 63 as mentioned in the clause.We will be negotiating this with Dassault.

Since both the deal are independent we may even scrap the 108 Rafales and go for other fighters be it EFs or SHs or Su35s 

The 2nd deal is now gonna take more time....at least 2 more years to finalize or getting scrapped


Did I miss anything

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## The_Sidewinder

badnam hazza miskin said:


> so you mean PLAAF& PAF might attack India anytime before "next two years"
> 
> Oh My God Im soooooooo scarred



Where did I said that??? Even if they attack us We have IAFs 150+ MKIs, 100+ mkii & upgs, INs KUBs to repel them.


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## Joseph Goebbels

The_Sidewinder said:


> Where did I said that??? Even if they attack us We have IAFs 150+ MKIs, 100+ mkii & upgs, INs KUBs to repel them.


but they have DSI tech enabelled JF -17s flown by worlds best trained & most skillful and ruthless PAF Pilots ...beat that


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## UgandaToRawanda

Top Sources Confirm : India has to buy at-least 3 Squadrons of f-35 For EMALS TOT FOR THE NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIER.


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## UgandaToRawanda

Top Sources Confirm : India has to buy at-least 3 Squadrons of f-35 For EMALS TOT FOR THE NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIER.


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## #hydra#

badnam hazza miskin said:


> but they have DSI tech enabelled JF -17s flown by worlds best trained & most skillful and ruthless PAF Pilots ...beat that


Please do not underestimate our enemy.

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## UgandaToRawanda

Top Sources Confirm : India has to buy at-least 3 Squadrons of f-35 For EMALS TOT FOR THE NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIER.


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## #hydra#

UgandaToRawanda said:


> Top Sources Confirm : India has to buy at-least 3 Squadrons of f-35 For EMALS TOT FOR THE NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIER.


source?

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## The_Sidewinder

badnam hazza miskin said:


> but they have DSI tech enabelled JF -17s flown by worlds best trained & most skillful and ruthless PAF Pilots ...beat that



You forgot their Majhab , marital race & Imaan. 

On a serious note why take a dig at them. Its our moment, lets enjoy it.
PAF is a professional force, if IAF meets them in battlefield in next few years, PAF will surely give us a good fight. But I am afraid, our MKIs will be too much of a firepower for them. 

Note: Appology on trolling

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## Odysseus

45'22' said:


> So the summary is
> 1-We will be buying 36 off the shelves Rafales from France at the cost of 4 billion euros(under negotiations) under the G2G deal
> so per unit cost will be around 120million $ which is good and will be getting them in a span of 2 years which is also good for our depleting forces.
> 
> 2-the original deal of 126 rafales has been decreased to 108 which if signed will be manufactured by HAL under ToT.If the deal goes through then we can manufacture another 63 as mentioned in the clause.We will be negotiating this with Dassault.
> 
> Since both the deal are independent we may even scrap the 108 Rafales and go for other fighters be it EFs or SHs or Su35s
> 
> The 2nd deal is now gonna take more time....at least 2 more years to finalize or getting scrapped
> 
> 
> Did I miss anything



I dont think you can change the RFP like this. According to the following article we will be getting 36 (G-G contract) + 126 (according to MMRCA tender). Otherwise scarp the contract altogether and go for more G-G order.

Another interesting speculation made by the author is-
"This has led to whispers of some other high-end defence technology transfers from France as a quid pro quo for this deal. One such technology being spoken about is the reactor for the Ship Submersible Ballistic Nuclear (SSBN) Submarine; India is currently in the process of making its first indigenous nuclear submarine, the Arihant."

Indian express: Rafale fighter jet deal- what does it mean for india? (Can't post links)


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## Chanakya's_Chant

*India likely to get F3 standard Rafale fighter jets*


India will place orders for 36 Rafale aircrafts which will be of exact standard which were tested by Indian air force under MMRCA Technical evaluation trials few years back which means it will be of the current production standard which is F3.3.

Dassault is currently manufacturing Rafale fighter jets which are of standard F3.3. Egypt which recently also has placed orders for 24 aircrafts will get Same standard F3.3 Rafales said Dassault officials. F3.3 standard Rafale will be equipped with an active array RBE2 AESA radar from Thales.

*About F3.3 standard*

F3.3 standard Rafale will be able to carry Reco NG aerial reconnaissance (AREOS) pod and 3rd generation Multifunction Targeting pod ” Damocles ” both which have been developed by Thales. ability to carry French ASMP-A air-launched nuclear missiles is irrelevant to export customers like India and Egypt and that capability will be taken off the fighters for India.

The f3.3 standard also gives Rafale ability to carry Scalp-Storm Shadow cruise missiles for Deep strike roles. Buddy-buddy in-flight refuelling. In Close air support roles use of laser-guided bombs, AASM and GBU-49 GPS-guided bombs along with Mica IR/EM missiles for Interception and air-to-air combat roles.

*Delivery Schedules*

After bagging order from Egypt, Dassault had planned to increase current annual production line of 11 aircrafts per year to 30 over next few years. India’s delivery schedule is still under negotiation and Defence minister Manohar Parrikar already has said that Indian Air force will start getting Rafale jets in next two years.

*Future Rafale “F3 R” standard launched*

Earlier last year French government and Dassault Aviation have agreed to start work on “F3 R” standard which will bring further upgrades to F3.3 standard. F3 R will feature software enhancements to make full use of the RBE2-AA radar, Meteor long-range air-to-air missile integration, SBU-64 dual-mode laser/GPS AASM smart bomb integration, improvements to Thales SPECTRA self-defence system, an Identification Friend or Foe interrogator/transponder with full Mode-5/ Mode-S-compatibility , New“F3 R” standard Rafales will enter production from 2018 on-wards.

Source:- India likely to get F3 standard Rafale fighter jets | idrw.org
Rafale Fighter Jets Will Be Inducted Into Air Force in 2 Years: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar

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## Chanakya's_Chant



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## Bullet500

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> View attachment 214090
> 
> View attachment 214091​


Blowing me a kiss is she?

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## 45'22'

Odysseus said:


> I dont think you can change the RFP like this. According to the following article we will be getting 36 (G-G contract) + 126 (according to MMRCA tender). Otherwise scarp the contract altogether and go for more G-G order.
> 
> Another interesting speculation made by the author is-
> "This has led to whispers of some other high-end defence technology transfers from France as a quid pro quo for this deal. One such technology being spoken about is the reactor for the Ship Submersible Ballistic Nuclear (SSBN) Submarine; India is currently in the process of making its first indigenous nuclear submarine, the Arihant."
> 
> Indian express: Rafale fighter jet deal- what does it mean for india? (Can't post links)


Arihant is already completed and we are doing fine with the 83MW pressurized reactor.....even we are making an 125MW reactor AFAIK .....
I don't know what you said is true or just speculation 

On Rafale......I think since its a G2G deal we can make certain changes.......if what you said is true then we will hear something about the 2 deals together.....if they keep it separate then it's as good as scrapped


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## SuperSubrayan

migflug said:


> So even govt confused abt mmrca.wow


Nothing to get confused . He just made his point on why 36 rafl needed . He dint talk on MMRCA because negotiations are already on. We need to put pressure on French to get a good dealdeal . Even if we buy Su35S it will be for Jags replacement . Rafale has its own place. As of now IN , Nuclear force will go for Rafale no matter what. So its wise for IAF to get Rafael to replace Mig27 . Mig21 will be replaced with Tejas. We need 180+ rafale

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## ruby007

Dassault is planning to increase the production capabilities to 30 in coming years... So i'd say its possible to add 36 in 2 years.. but not right now... most probably first batch would arrive in india by 2017


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## vsdave2302

Buy Su 35 MKI out of saved money with the condition that Russia will not sell that to china. Nothing morden than Su 30 MKK to be sold to china.


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## Abingdonboy

500 said:


> Which planes Rafales are replacing? Jaguars? MiG-27?


MiG-21s, MiG-27s and 1/2 old Jaguar SQNs.

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## vsdave2302

Buy Su 35 MKI out of saved money with the condition that Russia will not sell that to china. Nothing morden than Su 30 MKK to be sold to china.


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## Abingdonboy

wanglaokan said:


> it takes 8 years for India to get only 36 units Rafales and it only takes less than one year for China to produce same amount of J10b. you guys shall try harder to catch up. we are waiting for you at the finishing line.


You'e the same guy who was claiming it would take until 2019 for India to get the BARAK-8 and deliveries are baing made this year, now you are saying it will take EIGHT years to get 36 Rafales?

Sorry but the Defence Minister of India doesn't agree with you- it will take 2 years.

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## migflug

SuperSubrayan said:


> Nothing to get confused . He just made his point on why 36 rafl needed . He dint talk on MMRCA because negotiations are already on. We need to put pressure on French to get a good dealdeal . Even if we buy Su35S it will be for Jags replacement . Rafale has its own place. As of now IN , Nuclear force will go for Rafale no matter what. So its wise for IAF to get Rafael to replace Mig27 . Mig21 will be replaced with Tejas. We need 180+ rafale



Just hope so. But something big going to happen with tejas next month

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## Chanakya's_Chant

Shouldn't have India gone for F3 R Standard which was launched very recently? or at least the rest 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL should be of F3 R Standard? @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @sancho

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## Matrixx

wow

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## SuperSubrayan

> ASMP-A air-launched nuclear missiles is irrelevant to export customers like India and Egypt and that capability will be taken off the fighters for India.



Whatttt !!!!! Is this a mistake ? For Egypt nuclear delivery system will be taken off ... why for India ?

And as per this article F3. R won't be able to fire Meteor Missiles ? Only upgraded F4 can fire them ?


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## Matrixx

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Shouldn't have India gone for F3 R Standard which was launched very recently? or at least the rest 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL should be of F3 R Standard? @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @sancho


F3R will enter in production from 2018....

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## metronome

wow, just went thru the thread and I'm......... still confused 

so 36 French produced Rafales confirmed, what about the rest of the 90 ?.. a mix of Indian made Rafales and/or Russian fighters ?


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## SuperSubrayan

migflug said:


> Just hope so. But something big going to happen with tejas next month



Yes. What ever the critics from other side may say . Tejas is gonna be a ripper for sure. Total 200 of them including MK2 will be an awesome addition to any force .

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## vsdave2302

The right decission which I had been advocating for long time. Except spectra, there is nothing in Rafale which we can not buy very cheaply from other sources. MKI TOT, we are manufacturing almost 80% more powerful engine. We are soon going to have AESA Uttam. We have made very nice progress in EW too. So there is no need to spend additional 8 to 10 Bn USD for such shitty TOT. Buy that in fly away condition.

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## The_Sidewinder

vsdave2302 said:


> Buy Su 35 MKI out of saved money with the condition that Russia will not sell that to china. Nothing morden than Su 30 MKK to be sold to china.



I will forward your suggesions.to PM & DM. 



vsdave2302 said:


> The right decission which I had been advocating for long time. Except spectra, there is nothing in Rafale which we can not buy very cheaply from other sources. MKI TOT, we are manufacturing almost 80% more powerful engine. We are soon going to have AESA Uttam. We have made very nice progress in EW too. So there is no need to spend additional 8 to 10 Bn USD for such shitty TOT. Buy that in fly away condition.



Remaining birds will be bought. B)

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## Chanakya's_Chant

Matrixx said:


> F3R will enter in production from 2018....



Sabr ka phal meetha hota hai 

Anyways F3 R standard should be considered for the rest 108 fighters for they all are to serve IAF for at least three decades.



SuperSubrayan said:


> Whatttt !!!!! Is this a mistake ? For Egypt nuclear delivery system will be taken off ... why for India ?
> 
> And as per this article F3. R won't be able to fire Meteor Missiles ? Only upgraded F4 can fire them ?



BrahMos-M can compensate for ASMP-A - BrahMos-M may be heavier at 1.4-ton weight (against 860 kg ASMP-A) but in no other parameter is it outperformed by the ASMP-A.

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## The_Sidewinder

Newer the better..

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## Abingdonboy

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Shouldn't have India gone for F3 R Standard which was launched very recently? or at least the rest 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL should be of F3 R Standard? @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @sancho


This says it all:



Chanakya's_Chant said:


> India will place orders for 36 Rafale aircrafts which will be of exact standard which were tested by Indian air force under MMRCA Technical evaluation trials few years back which means it will be of the current production standard which is F3.3.





Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Earlier last year French government and Dassault Aviation have agreed to start work on “F3 R” standard which will bring further upgrades to F3.3 standard.





Chanakya's_Chant said:


> , New“F3 R” standard Rafales will enter production from 2018 on-wards.



The F3.3 standard is what Dassualt plant is currently churning out and given the 36 built for India will enter into production imminently they will be of the same standard. The F3 R will only be available from 2018 (i.e. after all 36 Rafales have been delivered to India) so the later batches delivered to India will be of this standard and the earlier F3.3 batch brought up to this standard (or an even later standard) in their MLUs.

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## Matrixx

Achchha wala dena Bhaiya

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## Abingdonboy

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Anyways F3 R standard should be considered for the rest 108 fighters for they all are to serve IAF for at least three decades.


The standard the fighters enter service as won't be the standard they end their service lives- look how many times the Jaguars, MiGs etc have been upgraded. There will be a F.5 standard and beyond to keep these birds cutting edge and relevant.

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## Abingdonboy

metronome said:


> wow, just went thru the thread and I'm......... still confused
> 
> so 36 French produced Rafales confirmed, what about the rest of the 90 ?.. a mix of Indian made Rafales and/or Russian fighters ?


36 Rafales coming off the shelf from France (as opposed to 18 as per the MMRCA) with the remaining 108 to be built in India deal being under negotiation as we speak.


So at a minimum India is getting 144 Rafales but it could be as many as 207 if the IAF exercise the option for 63 follow on units.

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## indianBong

UgandaToRawanda said:


> Top Sources Confirm : India has to buy at-least 3 Squadrons of f-35 For EMALS TOT FOR THE NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIER.



Your source is obama???

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## metronome

Abingdonboy said:


> 36 Rafales coming off the shelf from France (as opposed to 18 as per the MMRCA) with the remaining 108 to be built in India deal being under negotiation as we speak.
> 
> 
> *So at a minimum India is getting 144 Rafales but it could be as many as 207 if the IAF exercise the option for 63 follow on units.*

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## vsdave2302

Manindra said:


> PLAAF still have MIG 15 & MIG 19


 
That helps them to increase the number to match numbers of US' F 35 and F22s and F15 etc. After all Chinese airforce is not much behind (ofcourse in Numbers).


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Matrixx said:


> Achchha wala dena Bhaiya



Sahab Poora maal EKDUM Badhiya Hai 

Aisa AESA aur kahin nahin milega 

AESA (Aisa) Radar Aur Kaha Milega!!!

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## ito

UgandaToRawanda said:


> Top Sources Confirm : India has to buy at-least 3 Squadrons of f-35 For EMALS TOT FOR THE NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIER.



I don't know if it true now, but there was some news regarding this

Lockheed to offer fifth generation F-35 fighters to Navy - The Times of India

@*Abingdonboy what are chances of India having F-35? *

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## Matrixx

Stephen Cohen said:


> Sahab Poora maal EKDUM Badhiya Hai
> 
> Aisa AESA aur kahin nahin milega
> 
> AESA (Aisa) Radar Aur Kaha Milega!!!


Theek hai....3 dozen pack kar do

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## Sulman Badshah

A nice bird ....

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## Stephen Cohen

Matrixx said:


> Theek hai....3 dozen pack kar do



Par Sahab Aap to 8 DOZEN kahe the 

Hum to poora 8 dozen tayyar rakhe hain aapke liye alag se 

Aap hamare khaas grahak jo thehre


----------



## Matrixx

Stephen Cohen said:


> Par Sahab Aap to 8 DOZEN kahe the
> 
> Hum to poora 8 dozen tayyar rakhe hain aapke liye alag se
> 
> Aap hamare khaas grahak jo thehre


Phale 3 dozen do...achchha lagega to aur lenge.....

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy




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## Abingdonboy



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## Mr.Nair

Modi visited Air Bus plant.Airbus also plans to increase investment to 2 Billion dollar in India.Good going.

500% increase in 5 years: Airbus's 'Make in India' plan tobe worth $2bn - The Times of India

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## Archie

Matrixx said:


> Theek hai....3 dozen pack kar do



said Modi to Hollande


----------



## Luca1

Abingdonboy said:


> 144 or 207 (with the follow on clause of 63 being exercised).
> 
> 
> An additional 18 are being procured in a flyway condition from France 144-126=18.
> 
> 
> Perhaps but the DM also said he was pushing for the FGFA to be fast tracked, the Rafale will just about cover the immediate needs of the IAF until around 2025 and is not really a substitute for the FGFA but will buy some breathing room for them and stem the declining Sqn strength.



Why won't India separate plane purchase from development. Instead of getting TOT for RAFALE while working with Russia on FGFA, India should think outside of the box, such as invite France to be an equal partner on AMCA. Or join the next gen daussault project, which I'm certain is going on in secret.

India should focus on developing fifth generation planes instead of being assembler of 4th gen planes. The tot for RAFALE and a assembly line make sense 10 ears ago. But time has changed and India should get all of them, 124, off the shelf to save money. Save the money for fifth gen planes.



kaku1 said:


> The FGFA production in no way going to start before 2022, and induction by 2025.



It was 2018 and now is 2025. My bet will be beyond 2030 given that it's the first fifth gen fighter Russia has ever built and they are in a crunch.

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## Sugarcane

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Air force will start getting Rafale jets in next two years.



I thought it's in ready to fly condition and Modi will come back on them........

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## kaku1

Luca1 said:


> It was 2018 and now is 2025. My bet will be beyond 2030 given that it's the first fifth gen fighter Russia has ever built and they are in a crunch.


Your bet? There is any worth about your bet.

BTW, how many Fifth gen fighters you have build, and yes I mean Chinese.


----------



## Luca1

Congrats on India for finally get the plane.... And as I expected, right off the shelf. India could have done this back in 2012 if it had the right leadership.

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## Chanakya's_Chant

LoveIcon said:


> I thought it's in ready to fly condition and Modi will come back on them........



Never mind it's only day 2 and Modi is sure to come back with -

- ToT to Manufacture Heavy Nuclear Forgings for Areva's EPR Nuclear Reactors for the World's largest nuclear power plant.
The other ToT - India's L&T to Manufacture Heavy Nuclear Forgings for Areva's EPR Nuclear Reactors

- $2 Billion Cumulative Outsourcing by Airbus
#MakeInIndia Airbus Announces $2 Billion Cumulative Outsourcing From India By 2020

- €2 Billion French Foreign Direct Investment (FDI)
France to invest 2 billion euros in India - Business Today- Business News

And many more to come...

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## Luca1

kaku1 said:


> Your bet? There is any worth about your bet.
> 
> BTW, how many Fifth gen fighters you have build, and yes I mean Chinese.



im not chinese so you have to ask them. We only fly f-22. Instead of attacking me, my post is meant to have a discussion. So stop your trolling.


----------



## NKVD



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## ito

Luca1 said:


> Why won't India separate plane purchase from development. Instead of getting TOT for RAFALE while working with Russia on FGFA, India should think outside of the box, such as invite France to be an equal partner on AMCA. Or join the next gen daussault project, which I'm certain is going on in secret.
> 
> India should focus on developing fifth generation planes instead of being assembler of 4th gen planes. The tot for RAFALE and a assembly line make sense 10 ears ago. But time has changed and India should get all of them, 124, off the shelf to save money. Save the money for fifth gen planes.
> 
> 
> 
> It was 2018 and now is 2025. My bet will be beyond 2030 given that it's the first fifth gen fighter Russia has ever built and they are in a crunch.




TOT for Rafale is going to be used in developing AMCA. So no need for ordering Rafale from France directly and also asking France to partner on AMCA. Two times work.

By the way Rafale is almost a 5 gen aircraft.


----------



## Luca1

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Never mind it's only day 2 and Modi is sure to come back with -
> 
> - ToT to Manufacture Heavy Nuclear Forgings for Areva's EPR Nuclear Reactors for the World's largest nuclear power plant.
> The other ToT - India's L&T to Manufacture Heavy Nuclear Forgings for Areva's EPR Nuclear Reactors
> 
> - $2 Billion Cumulative Outsourcing by Airbus
> #MakeInIndia Airbus Announces $2 Billion Cumulative Outsourcing From India By 2020
> 
> - €2 Billion French Foreign Direct Investment (FDI)
> France to invest 2 billion euros in India - Business Today- Business News
> 
> And many more to come...



It will be fun if France provide the first 2 RAFALE to escort Modi back to India


----------



## kaku1

Luca1 said:


> im not chinese so you have to ask them. We only fly f-22. Instead of attacking me, my post is meant to have a discussion. So stop your trolling.


I know bro, form where you belong. So, stop your foolish deception, your disguising is disgusting.


----------



## mad_max

Indian Patriot said:


> Banned for what? For calling your tall claims as BS?
> 
> If you think IAF can induct 36 Rafales in two years its your problem not others. People like you can only comment on banning others for having a different opinion. Way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> Another emotional troll trying to get personal. What a bunch of jokers.


You should rename your handle to Indian AAPTARD , its pure waste of time reading any of your comments

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## Luca1

ito said:


> TOT for Rafale is going to be used in developing AMCA. So no need for ordering Rafale from France directly and also asking France to partner on AMCA. Two times work.
> 
> By the way Rafale is almost a 5 gen aircraft.



Instead of buying TOT, India should try self reliance. TOT is hurting Indian innovation. At least reverse engineer the plane so your can learn the pain of creating the plane instead of having the tech given to you. Indian engineers would only get the tech but not the process of acquiring the tech.


----------



## Pichkari

Abingdonboy said:


> 36 Rafales coming off the shelf from France (as opposed to 18 as per the MMRCA) with the remaining 108 to be built in India deal being under negotiation as we speak.
> 
> 
> So at a minimum India is getting 144 Rafales but it could be as many as 207 if the IAF exercise the option for 63 follow on units.



IMO we are going go the sukhoi way. 
The total requirement is 126+63=189

we may acquire 63 in batches starting with 36 first and when we have the money ,go for 126.



vsdave2302 said:


> The right decission which I had been advocating for long time. Except spectra, there is nothing in Rafale which we can not buy very cheaply from other sources. MKI TOT, we are manufacturing almost 80% more powerful engine. We are soon going to have AESA Uttam. We have made very nice progress in EW too. So there is no need to spend additional 8 to 10 Bn USD for such shitty TOT. Buy that in fly away condition.



good point
Even for spectra ,we are not going to learn how to design such a system.
We will have the codes so as to update the system and threat library.

People have all sort of notions regarding TOT.
TOT essentially enables us to operate such an aircraft independently without any external help.
It wont teach us to build one.
However the private copanies under the offset clause will be immensely benefited in terms of increased knowhow for making lubricants ,rotables .......


----------



## mad_max

Stephen Cohen said:


> Par Sahab Aap to 8 DOZEN kahe the
> 
> Hum to poora 8 dozen tayyar rakhe hain aapke liye alag se
> 
> Aap hamare khaas grahak jo thehre


saath mein thepla free milega kya ? 



Luca1 said:


> It will be fun if France provide the first 2 RAFALE to escort Modi back to India


Will prefer the model in your DP as escort


----------



## Luca1

mad_max said:


> saath mein thepla free milega kya ?
> 
> 
> Will prefer the model in your DP as escort



Her name is robyn lawley. She is in si swimsuit edition this year.

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## Luca1

Indian Patriot said:


> Indian lethargy.
> 
> The Scorpenes should have been inducted by now, only 1 has been complete. Artillery guns undergoing trials for past 15 years, and will continue to be on trial. Same will be true for Rafale.



If India bought Scorpenes off the shelf, how many would India have in service by now?


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Sun lo sarre duniya walon,
Jitna bhi tum zor laga lo,
Karenge party sari raat
G*nd mein dum hai,
toh band karwa lo ..!

Aaj botlan khullan doo,
Daaru shaaru dhullan do,
Whisky da peg laga ke,
Saari duniya bhullan doo ..!

Bajaate raho sabki
Bajaate raho..

Aunty police bula legi, Aunty police bula legi
Phir bhi party yoon hee chalegi
party all night,, party all night,...2x

We do party all night..

Bajaate raho sabki
Bajaate raho..!







Party All Night Boss Latest Full Video Song HD with Lyrics Feat Honey Singh - YouTube


----------



## UKBengali

So I suppose that production of Rafale will now increase to a maximum of 30 year.

60 aircraft can be produced by 2017 in that case - that is enough to satisfy the orders for both Egypt and India.

France may have agreed to not procure any for it's own armed forces for next 2 years in order to bag the contracts.

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## mad_max

PARIKRAMA said:


> Sun lo sarre duniya walon,
> Jitna bhi tum zor laga lo,
> Karenge party sari raat
> G*nd mein dum hai,
> toh band karwa lo ..!
> 
> Aaj botlan khullan doo,
> Daaru shaaru dhullan do,
> Whisky da peg laga ke,
> Saari duniya bhullan doo ..!
> 
> Bajaate raho sabki
> Bajaate raho..
> 
> Aunty police bula legi, Aunty police bula legi
> Phir bhi party yoon hee chalegi
> party all night,, party all night,...2x
> 
> We do party all night..
> 
> Bajaate raho sabki
> Bajaate raho..



Real party will roll when you get LCA mk2 inducted

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## PARIKRAMA

Luca1 said:


> If India bought Scorpenes off the shelf, how many would India have in service by now?



I dont think scorpene discussion matters as anything make in India properly is for creating a proper assmbly line or manufacturing base. So scorpene or MMRCA falls under that category. It would be nice if we could have got complete TOT as well as increase the scorpene numbers by another 6 but may be with time and speedy delivery we may see that too.

If you believe from cost perspective anything off the shelf would always be cheaper as it tales a minimum cost to set up requisite infrastructure at first. Thats why economies of scale may kick in when we order more scorpenes or more rafales from india manufacturing base (HAL or perhaps another line with Reliance)

what i would love to see is what the development product lifecycle had been shown to MOD for F4I (france 4 Inde) configuration and further development package as part of 20-25 years program. Reason being India provides a very harsh climate across from North (cold mountains) to west (sandy hot) to east (hills short take offs rainy) to south (dry humid) for any jet which may be rotated across the four regions. This data could perhaps help tailor made Rafale F4I to suit more Indian conditions especially in terms of Engine servicability, overhaul and life time duration in terms of hours. This is a critical data and perhaps via egyptians rafale the hot engine tech may be more refined too.

The only two things now left is to select snecma as official engine partner in AMCA (pls dont run after only russian engines but focus on TVC if its really needed) and use the experience of Dassault in codevelopment of AMCA (wishful thinking perhaps). Perhaps Rafale upgradation plans closer to 5th generation capability may also had been spelt to MOD which in case may be better be partially funded by India and use that directly in AMCA (speeding up the whole development timeframe). But then i feel it may be wishful thinking...

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## Mr.Nair

Hurray

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## SajeevJino

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Shouldn't have India gone for F3 R Standard which was launched very recently? or at least the rest 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL should be of F3 R Standard? @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @sancho



I don't know what they mentioning Recently Launched F 3 R standard, The Fourth Tranche of Rafale production already started and Al'A Receiving from Dassault. 

with the New orders of Egypt and India possibly UAE may increase the Tranche 4 with more Numbers that means significant increase of Numbers from current 11 per year to 20+ Rafale F 3 Aircrafts 

And the 5th Tranche more adavnced version of F 3 will enter production by 2019, French Defence Ministry already approved 50+ Aircraft's to Al'A



SuperSubrayan said:


> Whatttt !!!!! Is this a mistake ? For Egypt nuclear delivery system will be taken off ... why for India ?
> 
> And as per this article F3. R won't be able to fire Meteor Missiles ? Only upgraded F4 can fire them ?



Nope the Rafale can fire all kind of Missiles along with buddy to buddy refuel with this F 3 Config. 

Also It's a Note that everyone French won't sell ASMP-A to anyone, not India not Egypt not anyone



Luca1 said:


> It will be fun if France provide the first 2 RAFALE to escort Modi back to India



If my estimations were Correct, India would get first two Rafales before the end of this Year

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## shree835

wanglaokan said:


> pathetic 36 units only, Modi is really frugal.



Chini Guy...you need to worry about 36 number of aircraft or Modi...You should only concentrate on the order that you are going to get from pakistan... Try to get as much as money you can get from him...Give them some soft loan and take back that money with Interest by giving some aircraft...Trust me I am eagerly waiting for this news.



mad_max said:


> Real party will roll when you get LCA mk2 inducted



You are 100% correct...



wanglaokan said:


> it takes 8 years for India to get only 36 units Rafales and it only takes less than one year for China to produce same amount of J10b. you guys shall try harder to catch up. we are waiting for you at the finishing line.


IAF is going to get those 36 aircraft in another 2 year....Means by the end of 2017 Rafale will be with us.

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## Odysseus

45'22' said:


> Arihant is already completed and we are doing fine with the 83MW pressurized reactor.....even we are making an 125MW reactor AFAIK .....
> I don't know what you said is true or just speculation
> 
> On Rafale......I think since its a G2G deal we can make certain changes.......if what you said is true then we will hear something about the 2 deals together.....if they keep it separate then it's as good as scrapped



That's why I said the author is speculating. Maybe he got confused with the Areva reactor deal. 

IMO, the mmrca contract negotiations will go on and the government will take its time to solve all the kinks. At the end the number of birds inducted will be 36+126.

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## CrazyEagle9

SuperSubrayan said:


> Whatttt !!!!! Is this a mistake ? For Egypt nuclear delivery system will be taken off ... why for India ?
> 
> And as per this article F3. R won't be able to fire Meteor Missiles ? Only upgraded F4 can fire them ?



Indian Jugaad will fit anything on that...


----------



## Tridibans

Indian Patriot said:


> Off the shelf means purchasing fighters already manufactured. Is France so confident that they have already manufactured 36 fighters and waiting for India to come and take them?
> 
> And there is no 108. The whole MMRCA deal is scrapped off. India is reportedly in talks for 60 Rafales and that is it.
> 
> In modern age, building 28 aircrafts a years is simply NOT possible.
> 
> You should check the difference in defence budget between US and France. Also the difference in industrial muscle.





Indian Patriot said:


> It is futile to argue with people blinded on nationalist fervor. Wait and watch, that is the only cure for fools like you. The 36 Rafales will not be inducted before 2020.



I have read enough post of yours since yesterday and it is now all but confirmed that you are trolling.

So many posters have clarified to you "personally" that we are purchasing 36 + 108 (MMRCA is still on).... still you are hell bent with your hate filled / negative mindset.

Then there is this new part. 28 aircrafts in a year seems impossible to you..... have you ever checked the rate of production of Mirage 2000 at its peak? Or for that matter Mig 21? Or F35 (most recent)?

When people are giving you links which clearly has Dassault officials stating they can increase production to 2.5 per month, I don't know why you are going on with your rants.


----------



## egodoc222

Indian Patriot said:


> Indian lethargy.
> 
> The Scorpenes should have been inducted by now, only 1 has been complete. Artillery guns undergoing trials for past 15 years, and will continue to be on trial. Same will be true for Rafale.


but the french are gonna make them...not us


----------



## kaku1

Indian Patriot said:


> It is futile to argue with people blinded on nationalist fervor. Wait and watch, that is the only cure for fools like you. The 36 Rafales will not be inducted before 2020.


You able to born before 2020, then what the hell Rafale is.

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## SelfServeFive

Modi is humiliated thoroughly by France. After so much boasting about Indian superiority. Now we see everybody treats Indians like dirt.

India will crash at least 12 Rafale airframes within the first year.


----------



## janon

SelfServeFive said:


> Modi is humiliated thoroughly by France. After so much boasting about Indian superiority. Now we see everybody treats Indians like dirt.
> 
> India will crash at least 12 Rafale airframes within the first year.



Congratulations, you just earned 50 cents:

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## UgandaToRawanda

SelfServeFive said:


> Modi is humiliated thoroughly by France. After so much boasting about Indian superiority. Now we see everybody treats Indians like dirt.
> 
> India will crash at least 12 Rafale airframes within the first year.


that is still a better record than china.


----------



## Windjammer

NEW DELHI: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said India's decision to buy 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets off the shelf would infuse "minimum oxygen" into the Air Force, battling with an ageing warplane fleet. Describing the deal as "great", Mr Parrikar said that the planes would be inducted into the Air Force within a span of two years.

"It's a great decision taken by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on better terms and conditions. Procuring 36 planes for two squadrons is an extremely positive decision which was needed," Mr Parrikar told the Press Trust of India.




"Indian Air Force will get minimum oxygen (relief) it required with this deal... In fact we have not purchased any major new generation aircraft in (last) 17 years," the minister said.

On Friday, PM Modi announced at a press conference in Paris that he had "asked President (Francois Hollande) to provide 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition*." He said the terms and conditions of the contract have yet to be finalised and officials from both sides would work out the details.*

*Mr Parrikar said today that buying the planes in "fly away condition" did not mean that "we will get them tomorrow".*

"It has to be designed as per India's need," he said, adding negotiations would be held over the pricing of the planes.

The original plan was for India to buy 18 off-the-shelf jets from France's Dassault Aviation, with 108 others being assembled in India by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL in Bengaluru. Sources now say that if negotiations work out, India will buy 144 aircraft, 18 more than the original 126, ensuring that 108 jets will still be assembled at home.

For three years, the Rafale deal has been mired in extensive negotiations. Dassault has been reluctant to provide guarantees for the aircraft that are produced in India.

The Rafale was chosen in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The original proposal for 126 fighter jets was worth at least 12 billion dollars.

Rafale Deal Will Bring 'Minimum Oxygen' to Air Force: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar

*Basically just a follow up of the 2012 decision with ifs and buts still in place. *

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## ruby007

UgandaToRawanda said:


> Top Sources Confirm : India has to buy at-least 3 Squadrons of f-35 For EMALS TOT FOR THE NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIER.



if india goes for EMALS then yes... Americans would never allow any other aircraft than F-35 or may be if we are able to built AMCA naval version by the time we could play a game or.. its defiantly ging to be F-35


----------



## Cry.me.a.River

mad_max said:


> Real party will roll when you get LCA mk2 inducted




And AMCA. 

These two are truly Indian planes.


----------



## magudi

SelfServeFive said:


> India asked France to buy 60 off the shelf and get 100 for free. France laughed and said no. Now India is utterly humiliated. Everybody knows India is a poor beggar not a shupa powa as claimed.




And everybody knows you are a 50 cent troll with no real life.

Thanks

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## The Headache

@jamahir @The_Showstopper @magudi Any comments of you on this development ?


----------



## ROCKING

petrol tanki bhar ke dena bhaiya

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## nik141991

@Abingdonboy are we getting meteor BVRAAM with this 36 or just MICA ?


----------



## VelocuR

Okay cool. 

That's last option for India to purchase Rafale. Don't lose hope and be patience!


----------



## Stephen Cohen

IAF will be OK once we get say 50 Rafales say by 2020

Because BY THAT time we will also have received all our required Su 30 ; LCA mk 1

The Mig 29 upgradation will be over
Mirage 2000 upgradation will be half completed
Jaguar upgradation will be done

And Maybe one squadron of FGFA too would have been received

What the minister is hinting at is that we want MORE Rafales than just 36

But that will come from HAL


----------



## Matrixx

LoveIcon said:


> I thought it's in ready to fly condition and Modi will come back on them........


Modi will come back in Airbus 380


----------



## anant_s

Rau said:


> Can we assume increase in number means may delay in induction of FGFA...


Actually it could mean a lot of things. we discussed yesterday that Rafale (given its performance and capabilities) can be used to cover for a lot of machines either due for retirement (MiG 21, 27 possibly some Jaguars), or delay in induction (LCA mk 2) and attrition losses (Mirage 2000 and MiG 29).
Besides FGFA being an entirely different generation of aircraft can't be compared with Rafale. 
That said, it is likely (as a lot of us believe here) that the order could well grow past 144 mark touted for induction in future.


----------



## jamahir

The Headache said:


> @jamahir @The_Showstopper @magudi Any comments of you on this development ?



congrats.


----------



## anant_s

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Sabr ka phal meetha hota hai
> 
> Anyways F3 R standard should be considered for the rest 108 fighters for they all are to serve IAF for at least three decades.
> 
> 
> 
> BrahMos-M can compensate for ASMP-A - BrahMos-M may be heavier at 1.4-ton weight (against 860 kg ASMP-A) but in no other parameter is it outperformed by the ASMP-A.


There is always mid-life upgrade opportunity. I'm sure we are getting best bang for our buck.


----------



## NKVD

nik141991 said:


> @Abingdonboy are we getting meteor BVRAAM with this 36 or just MICA ?


May be in last Batch after 2018


----------



## Windjammer

Stephen Cohen said:


> Oh COME ON ; We know the reality
> 
> The best case scenario for Pakistan was
> if the deal collapsed or fizzled out
> 
> What is the harm in being honest


You are behaving like a typical fan boy, let me remind you that what i posted is a narrative by your defence minister published in an Indian paper. But displaying your frivolous nature, you have to drag the argument elsewhere. 
BTW, I'm not sure if any Pakistani paper even carried this three year old news.


----------



## magudi

The Headache said:


> @jamahir @The_Showstopper @magudi Any comments of you on this development ?



Utterly stupid move . Should've either cancelled the deal as a whole or signed it instaed of buying few off the shelf and giving france the leverage to arm twist us .Typical modi bhakts like you will upload the mess up we know



jamahir said:


> congrats.



Are you serious ?
Waste of billions when farmers are out there suiciding

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## PWFI

i am hearing about indian since 2006 and still  nothing to worry about these big mouths, they can only

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## Bornubus

Indian Media is not Reliable


----------



## Khalid Newazi

So, does this mean "No HAL Tejas II"?


----------



## The Headache

magudi said:


> Utterly stupid move . Should've either cancelled the deal as a whole or signed it instaed of buying few off the shelf and giving france the leverage to arm twist us .Typical modi bhakts like you will upload the mess up we know
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious ?
> Waste of billions when farmers are out there suiciding


And typical ch**iyas like you with exactly no info. will keep on whining around here!



jamahir said:


> congrats.


But why Magudi is unhappy?

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## duhastmish

These number of Rafael are too low to make any impact.
More over Pakistan was not really kept in frame of mind for Rafael.

The whole Pakistani doctrine of minimum attack maximum defence is perfect. No matter how much india try to increase number once in the Pakistani territory their radar and most importantly better pilot. Will come in framework. In dog fights it's a Pakistani edge.

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## magudi

The Headache said:


> And typical ch**iyas like you with exactly no info. will keep on whining around here!
> 
> 
> But why Magudi is unhappy?




Keep patting yourself on the back.
Feku is on the decline 
All your bhakti is shortlived my brother 
Only feku could've screwed up a deal like this and he didn't dissapoint
Keep supporting illiterates

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## cerberus

duhastmish said:


> These number of Rafael are too low to make any impact.
> More over Pakistan was not really kept in frame of mind for Rafael.
> 
> The whole Pakistani doctrine of minimum attack maximum defence is perfect. No matter how much india try to increase number once in the Pakistani territory their radar and most importantly better pilot. Will come in framework. In dog fights it's a Pakistani edge.


Its denial nothing Else.Any Big operation Like invasion of Pakistan will Done with Proper Planning and taking Every operational point into consideration the IAF which operationally and Economically superior to PAF will check all the things.


duhastmish said:


> These number of Rafael are too low to make any impact.


this Initial and Separate deal from the original MMrca which done to maintain operational Readiness of IAF.
the MMrca will be done in follow up Deal after this which add number up to 144

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## ni8mare

magudi said:


> Keep patting yourself on the back.
> Feku is on the decline
> All your bhakti is shortlived my brother
> Only feku could've screwed up a deal like this and he didn't dissapoint
> Keep supporting illiterates


So what has congress done for the deal?


----------



## Abingdonboy

Windjammer said:


> NEW DELHI: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said India's decision to buy 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets off the shelf would infuse "minimum oxygen" into the Air Force, battling with an ageing warplane fleet. Describing the deal as "great", Mr Parrikar said that the planes would be inducted into the Air Force within a span of two years.
> 
> "It's a great decision taken by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on better terms and conditions. Procuring 36 planes for two squadrons is an extremely positive decision which was needed," Mr Parrikar told the Press Trust of India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Indian Air Force will get minimum oxygen (relief) it required with this deal... In fact we have not purchased any major new generation aircraft in (last) 17 years," the minister said.
> 
> On Friday, PM Modi announced at a press conference in Paris that he had "asked President (Francois Hollande) to provide 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition*." He said the terms and conditions of the contract have yet to be finalised and officials from both sides would work out the details.*
> 
> *Mr Parrikar said today that buying the planes in "fly away condition" did not mean that "we will get them tomorrow".*
> 
> "It has to be designed as per India's need," he said, adding negotiations would be held over the pricing of the planes.
> 
> The original plan was for India to buy 18 off-the-shelf jets from France's Dassault Aviation, with 108 others being assembled in India by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL in Bengaluru. Sources now say that if negotiations work out, India will buy 144 aircraft, 18 more than the original 126, ensuring that 108 jets will still be assembled at home.
> 
> For three years, the Rafale deal has been mired in extensive negotiations. Dassault has been reluctant to provide guarantees for the aircraft that are produced in India.
> 
> The Rafale was chosen in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The original proposal for 126 fighter jets was worth at least 12 billion dollars.
> 
> Rafale Deal Will Bring 'Minimum Oxygen' to Air Force: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar
> 
> *Basically just a follow up of the 2012 decision with ifs and buts still in place. *





Windjammer said:


> You are behaving like a typical fan boy, let me remind you that what i posted is a narrative by your defence minister published in an Indian paper. But displaying your frivolous nature, you have to drag the argument elsewhere.
> BTW, I'm not sure if any Pakistani paper even carried this three year old news.



Lol at you getting all excited at this news.

-36 planes for the IAF in two years
-108 Rafale deal to be built in India under negations and needs to be signed ASAP
- Work is going on for that much larger Rafale deal


With the agreement on 36 Rafales India, and the Prime Minister, has shown intent and 144 Rafales (at least) are now guaranteed by 2025- the rest is all formalities.



Khalid Newazi said:


> So, does this mean "No HAL Tejas II"?


There will be over 200 LCAs (Mk.1 and Mk.2) aside for the number the IN will procure, the purchase of Rafales has NO correlation with that.

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## GORKHALI

Windjammer said:


> NEW DELHI: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said India's decision to buy 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets off the shelf would infuse "minimum oxygen" into the Air Force, battling with an ageing warplane fleet. Describing the deal as "great", Mr Parrikar said that the planes would be inducted into the Air Force within a span of two years.
> 
> "It's a great decision taken by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on better terms and conditions. Procuring 36 planes for two squadrons is an extremely positive decision which was needed," Mr Parrikar told the Press Trust of India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Indian Air Force will get minimum oxygen (relief) it required with this deal... In fact we have not purchased any major new generation aircraft in (last) 17 years," the minister said.
> 
> On Friday, PM Modi announced at a press conference in Paris that he had "asked President (Francois Hollande) to provide 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition*." He said the terms and conditions of the contract have yet to be finalised and officials from both sides would work out the details.*
> 
> *Mr Parrikar said today that buying the planes in "fly away condition" did not mean that "we will get them tomorrow".*
> 
> "It has to be designed as per India's need," he said, adding negotiations would be held over the pricing of the planes.
> 
> The original plan was for India to buy 18 off-the-shelf jets from France's Dassault Aviation, with 108 others being assembled in India by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL in Bengaluru. Sources now say that if negotiations work out, India will buy 144 aircraft, 18 more than the original 126, ensuring that 108 jets will still be assembled at home.
> 
> For three years, the Rafale deal has been mired in extensive negotiations. Dassault has been reluctant to provide guarantees for the aircraft that are produced in India.
> 
> The Rafale was chosen in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The original proposal for 126 fighter jets was worth at least 12 billion dollars.
> 
> Rafale Deal Will Bring 'Minimum Oxygen' to Air Force: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar
> 
> *Basically just a follow up of the 2012 decision with ifs and buts still in place. *



Well there is difference in your if and buts .Here they clearly said India will buy Rafale no matter what but this 36 will arrive in 2017. Coming to Thread name ,you once again proved that Pakistan feeling the heat.They yet to deal with Su 30mki and then this Rafale.Go and ask china to give something better.

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## Abingdonboy

duhastmish said:


> These number of Rafael are too low to make any impact.


144 of the most advanced 4.5+ gen planes won't have any impact?

Heck, even with 36 Rafales the IAF could take on most airforces in the region.

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## cerberus

GORKHALI said:


> Well there is difference in your if and buts .Here they clearly said India will buy Rafale no matter what but this 36 will arrive in 2017. Coming to Thread name ,you once again proved that Pakistan feeling the heat.They yet to deal with Su 30mki and then this Rafale.Go and ask china to give something better.


Guy is still in Denial Even after PM joint Statement in Front of All world Media


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## GORKHALI

Abingdonboy said:


> 144 of the most advanced 4.5+ gen planes won't have any impact?
> 
> Heck, even with 36 Rafales the IAF could take on most airforces in the region.


Thats why 36 rafales will be inducted in past pace mode while in coming days more clarifications will be there ragarding the Type and if this deal also include the weapon system and support system.

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## Abingdonboy

nik141991 said:


> @Abingdonboy are we getting meteor BVRAAM with this 36 or just MICA ?


Unclear right now, we will have to wait and see for the details of the package to become clear.


----------



## duhastmish

Abingdonboy said:


> 144 of the most advanced 4.5+ gen planes won't have any impact?
> 
> Heck, even with 36 Rafales the IAF could take on most airforces in the region.


Dude no info about 144 yet. 

I am talking about 36 . That number is too low make an impact toward china.

Even in deterrence . Look at their fleet and numbers how many they have and how many they are capable of making during war. They can increase production anytime.


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## GORKHALI

cerberus said:


> Guy is still in Denial Even after PM joint Statement in Front of All world Media


He ought to be.Niw he will again come up with famous story of Su30 mki escorted by F16

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## Abingdonboy

duhastmish said:


> Dude no info about 144 yet.
> 
> I am talking about 36 . That number is too low make an impact toward china.
> 
> Even in deterrence . Look at their fleet and numbers how many they have and how many they are capable of making during war. They can increase production anytime.


The Defence Minister talks about the 144 figure- the deal on the remaining 108 to be built in India will be signed sometime this year, no way are the GoI going to get into a situation where they buy 36 Rafales then let the 108 deal collapse. The agreement o the 36 has confirmed that India is committed to buying *at least* 144.

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## Windjammer

Abingdonboy said:


> Lol at you getting all excited at this news.
> 
> -36 planes for the IAF in two years
> -108 Rafale deal to be built in India under negations and needs to be signed ASAP
> - Work is going on for that much larger Rafale deal
> 
> 
> With the agreement on 36 Rafales India, and the Prime Minister, has shown intent and 144 Rafales (at least) are now guaranteed by 2025- the rest is all formalities.
> 
> 
> There will be over 200 LCAs (Mk.1 and Mk.2) aside for the number the IN will procure, the purchase of Rafales has NO correlation with that.


It's rather sad when even sane members like you jump the gun and start making predictions.
Firstly what's new here to get exited about, a decision made three years earlier may come into fruition in next few years. You talking about 2025 which is a decade from now.....keeping in mind the repeatedly missing dates for your other projects.


----------



## INDIAPOSITIVE

Congressgeneral secretaryDigvijay Singhon Saturday dared Subramanian Swamy to movecourtover the Rafale deal after theBJPleader said he will approach the court against the deal as he claimed the fighter jet has shortcomings.


Experts, however, have said the government's decision to acquire 36 Rafale jets is to be welcomed.

"I dare Subramanian Swamy to go to court on Rafale Jet purchase," Singh said in a tweet.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has welcomed the decision to purchase 36 Rafale jets, saying that India has not purchased any new generation aircraft in 17 years.

Swamy in a letter posted on Twitter has said: "I urge the Prime Minister not to finalize the Rafael Aircraft Deal with France. The deal originally was negotiated by the previous UPA Government."

He claimed "that Rafael is a less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristics because of which no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft.

"Some countries have cancelled contracts after signing an MoU with Dasault, the manufacturers, after carrying out a trial of the plane, for example, Switzerland."

"The Rafael performance of Libya and Egypt turned out to be worst of all the aircraft which were deployed by the allies liberating the countries from tyranny."

"If the Prime Minister for some other compulsion anyway decides to go ahead with the deal, then I will have no option but to approach the Court in a PIL to get it set aside"

Strategic expert Uday Bhaskar supported the decision to purchase 36 Rafale jets in fly away condition announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his meeting with French President Francois Hollande on Friday.

Bhaskar told IANS: "The decision to acquire 36 Rafale fighter aircraft is to be welcomed for it will redress a serious operational deficiency as far as the Indian Air Force is concerned."

"This is an innovative and expedient option, given the procedural complexity and time lines that are associated with the larger MMRCA deal."

"Hopefully the current Rafale deal will allow India to review its long term strategic and defence cooperation agreements with major suppliers such as France."

Digvijay Singh also tweeted: "Modi buys 36 Ready to Fly Rafale Jets from France off the shelf. Is this the new Defence Purchase Policy of GOI?Would CAG/CVC please take notice."

"When PM was buying Fighter Aircrafts in France our Defence Min was buying Fish in Goa! Minimum Govt and Max Governance."

"When PM is signing deals Abroad Foreign Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj is propagating Modi's future achievements in Vidisha MP," he tweeted.


Rafale deal: Congress dares Swamy to go to court | Business Standard News


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586777290207399936


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## duhastmish

cerberus said:


> Its denial nothing Else.Any Big operation Like invasion of Pakistan will Done with Proper Planning and taking Every operational point into consideration the IAF which operationally and Economically superior to PAF will check all the things.
> 
> this Initial and Separate deal from the original MMrca which done to maintain operational Readiness of IAF.
> the MMrca will be done in follow up Deal after this which add number up to 144



First of all let's see why only Pakistan ? Why not china and them realise the numbers.

Secondly Pakistan is one of the best airforce. They are flying diverse fighters.
They have extremely good pilot training.
They have very good g2a target system.
They have small territory to cover. They have smaller enemy the gap compare to china india and india pak is different .

I think india need to decide about rest of fighter soon. Because 4.5 gen age is almost over its 5th gen. 

May be 6th gen by the time india get full numbers.

Brother now the negotiation edge is gone.
India don't have options. It was best to ink with these 36. Why delay?



Abingdonboy said:


> The Defence Minister talks about the 144 figure- the deal on the remaining 108 to be built in India will be signed sometime this year, no way are the GoI going to get into a situation where they buy 36 Rafales then let the 108 deal collapse. The agreement o the 36 has confirmed that India is committed to buying *at least* 144.


----------



## Windjammer

GORKHALI said:


> Well there is difference in your if and buts .Here they clearly said India will buy Rafale no matter what but this 36 will arrive in 2017. Coming to Thread name ,you once again proved that Pakistan feeling the heat.They yet to deal with Su 30mki and then this Rafale.Go and ask china to give something better.


Feeling the heat ....for something which hasn't seen light of the day, you are a genius, one wonders what would you people do if there was no PDF.....so rather than advising me, go and rant your banter on that BR zoo to make yourself feel better.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Windjammer said:


> It's rather sad when even sane members like you jump the gun and start making predictions.


What's jumping the gun" about what I said? The Prime Minister of India officially announced an agreement for 36 Rafales as soon as possible for the IAF- this has not been talked about or even mooted before at any official level. Now the Defence Minister in this very article is stating the deal for the remaining 108 Rafales is under discussion and will be signed imminently considering that deal had been close to being signed anyway regardless of this 36 fast track deal. 



Windjammer said:


> Firstly what's new here to get exited about,


That a 3 year deadlock has been broken- 36 Rafales are on their way on a fast track basis to urgently address the IAF's depleting Sqn strength and the deal for 108 more is surely now only a formality as opposed to being in a perpetual state of uncertainty as it has been for the past few years.



Windjammer said:


> keeping in mind the repeatedly missing dates for your other projects.


LCA Mk.1 is on track to meet its FOC deadline this year, there is talk of actually reaping up production of the Mk.1 to 16/year from next year, the FGFA is uncertain true but the Defence Minister has said he is working on fast tracking this and given his background and suggested competency I have no reason to doubt his intent.



duhastmish said:


> Why delay?


There are still some aspects of the deal that need to be worked out- there is no point in signing a rushed deal and then paying for that haste in the decades to come. It is fair enough the MoD/PM/DM are taking a cautious approach on that front but it is now a question of when not if.

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## Windjammer

duhastmish said:


> These number of Rafael are too low to make any impact.
> More over Pakistan was not really kept in frame of mind for Rafael.
> 
> The whole Pakistani doctrine of minimum attack maximum defence is perfect. No matter how much india try to increase number once in the Pakistani territory their radar and most importantly better pilot. Will come in framework. In dog fights it's a Pakistani edge.


Wash your mouth with holy water, else you will be considered a false flagger.


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## duhastmish

Windjammer said:


> Feeling the heat ....for something which hasn't seen light of the day, you are a genius, one wonders what would you people do if there was no PDF.....so rather than advising me, go and rant your banter on that BR zoo to make yourself feel better.


I used to hate u for being biased. But saw your reply on paf thread got to respect u brother. Also I realise Indian are bit too one dimensional and adment. Too much jingoism. I apologise for being rude and abusive to u. May be you don't even remember.


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## cerberus

duhastmish said:


> Because 4.5 gen age is almost over its 5th gen.


then when why china is still Manufacturing J-10,J-11 etc mate 4.5 will be still remain main back bone on 90 % of air force's around world . 5 gen will be still beyond reach because it Costly Maintenance cost and technical difficulties.
Even IAF will Face difficulties in Adopting FGFA


duhastmish said:


> Secondly Pakistan is one of the best airforce. They are flying diverse fighters.
> They have extremely good pilot training.
> They have very good g2a target system.
> They have small territory to cover. They have smaller enemy the gap compare to china india and india pak is different


yes they good but not that Much that they will negate all the operational superiority of IAF. IAF Exercise in with USAF,RSAF & other is example they Not Rookies Either


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## mad_max

Cry.me.a.River said:


> And AMCA.
> 
> These two are truly Indian planes.


AMCA is decades away first complete LCA , stealth is overrated as it is



magudi said:


> And everybody knows you are a 50 cent troll with no real life.
> 
> Thanks


Dont feed the troll just ignore is best way to deal

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## Windjammer

duhastmish said:


> I used to hate u for being biased. But saw your reply on paf thread got to respect u brother. Also I realise Indian are bit too one dimensional and adment. Too much jingoism. I apologise for being rude and abusive to u. May be you don't even remember.


No harm done my friend, have a debate, agree to disagree and move on.

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## duhastmish

cerberus said:


> then when why china is still Manufacturing J-10,J-11 etc mate 4.5 will be still remain main back bone on 90 % of air force's around world 5 gen will be still be beyond reach of because it Costly Maintenance cost and technical difficulties.
> Even IAF will Face difficulties in Adopting FGFA
> 
> yes they good but not that Much that they will negate all the operational superiority of IAF. IAF Exercise in with USAF,RSAF & other is example they Not Rookies Either


Because they don't really have threat of fifth gen till now, also India is too small airforce to attack them. India is more on defence.

They have j20 and j31. Two programme, can also buy pakfa when ever.

--''''''-------'----------

As for Pakistan they have superior pilot training. Just see the falling number of jets on indian side. They have much less andThey are flying older fighter.


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## cerberus

duhastmish said:


> Brother now the negotiation edge is gone.
> India don't have options. It was best to ink with these 36. Why delay?


Due Know what is Procedure of Signing such deal .And who told you Negotiation Edge is gone


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## DeathInvader

This guy posts so much!


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## Cyberian

The way India has wasted away 17 years without acquiring any new fighter aircrafts is as if the country was under sanctions. Really unfortunate for India but very very fortunate for Pakistan to make up for the lost decade of the 1990s.


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## cerberus

duhastmish said:


> Because they don't really have threat of fifth gen till now, also India is too small airforce to attack them. India is more on defence.
> 
> They have j20 and j31. Two programme, can also buy pakfa when ever.
> 
> --''''''-------'----------
> 
> As for Pakistan they have superior pilot training. Just the falling number of jets. They are flying older fighter.


@MilSpec Is this guy is Indian or trolling


----------



## kaykay

True that. 36 rafales will give IAF some relief along with MKIs till 108 Rafales arrive at later stage.



SUPARCO said:


> The way India has wasted away 17 years without acquiring any new fighter aircrafts is as if the country was under sanctions. Really unfortunate for India but very very fortunate for Pakistan to make up for the lost decade of the 1990s.


Here DM is talking about new type of aircrafts not new aircrafts. In that case India has inducted over 220+ MKIs in last 12-13 years. Let alone 33 Mig-29Ks for navy till date.

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## The Huskar

So Congress is trying reverse psychology on BJP and Swamy,huh.Wonder how it will work out for them.

So Congress is trying reverse psychology on BJP and Swamy,huh.Wonder how it will work out for them.


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## GORKHALI

SUPARCO said:


> The way India has wasted away 17 years without acquiring any new fighter aircrafts is as if the country was under sanctions. Really unfortunate for India but very very fortunate for Pakistan to make up for the lost decade of the 1990s.


New aircrafts ? We are inducting 22 Mki every year while ,now LCA tejas is also online.by 2017-2018 . IAF will need more as they are phasing out more squadron than inducting.By 2017 there will be no Mig 21 and Mig27 around which constitute 1/3 of IAF strength.



duhastmish said:


> These number of Rafael are too low to make any impact.
> More over Pakistan was not really kept in frame of mind for Rafael.
> 
> The whole Pakistani doctrine of minimum attack maximum defence is perfect. No matter how much india try to increase number once in the Pakistani territory their radar and most importantly better pilot. Will come in framework. In dog fights it's a Pakistani edge.


When you don't know anything then why to post.Rafale gives safe distance to shoot down anything flyng while pounding on ground at the same time.Now do you understand why am saying this ? Ok Talking about better pilots even US says the same when it comes to WVR Indians are better but in this era why they need to focus on this not honing BVR skill where Indians pilots are blessed with thanks to earlier trance of R77 and Matra530 since mid 90s.

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## Matrixx

Good for Pakistan..so need to look for option against Rafale


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## GORKHALI

DeathInvader said:


> This guy posts so much!


He cant even write the Rafale while this man talking about shortcomings.

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## Storm Force

Windjammer Your really clutching at straws.

Our PRIME MINSTER has just signed a deal in PARIS govt to govr to get 36 STATE OF THE ART RAFALES.

EVERY NEWSPAPER IN THE WORLD IS REPORTING 

THEY ARRIVE ALL 36 INSIDE 24 MONTHS

but you put your head in the pillow AND HOPE ITS A DREAM 

CARRY ON 

MEANWHILE

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## duhastmish

GORKHALI said:


> New aircrafts ? We are inducting 22 Mki every year while ,now LCA tejas is also online.by 2017-2018 . IAF will need more as they are phasing out more squadron than inducting.By 2017 there will be no Mig 21 and Mig27 around which constitute 1/3 of IAF strength.
> 
> 
> When you don't know anything then why to post.Rafale gives safe distance to shoot down anything flyng while pounding on ground at the same time.Now do you understand why am saying this ? Ok Talking about better pilots even US says the same when it comes to WVR Indians are better but in this era why they need to focus on this not honing BVR skill where Indians pilots are blessed with thanks to earlier trance of R77 and Matra530 since mid 90s.


Once you enter their territory . They know you are there and then comes dog fights. Pilot vs pilot. 

Pakistan is playing within its premises. They always gave a better answer. Just read unbiased history. My pilots are no less but Pakistani seem to have better training.

Once you enter Pakistan during war the whole concept changes you are right in front within their land base radar and AWACS. Now you have hidden targets from g2a and anti aircraft and their pilots.

I don't care for USAF pilot they never fought against real airforce. Indian and Pakistani have and these country possess better pilots.



GORKHALI said:


> New aircrafts ? We are inducting 22 Mki every year while ,now LCA tejas is also online.by 2017-2018 . IAF will need more as they are phasing out more squadron than inducting.By 2017 there will be no Mig 21 and Mig27 around which constitute 1/3 of IAF strength.
> 
> 
> When you don't know anything then why to post.Rafale gives safe distance to shoot down anything flyng while pounding on ground at the same time.Now do you understand why am saying this ? Ok Talking about better pilots even US says the same when it comes to WVR Indians are better but in this era why they need to focus on this not honing BVR skill where Indians pilots are blessed with thanks to earlier trance of R77 and Matra530 since mid 90s.


Once you enter their territory . They know you are there and then comes dog fights. Pilot vs pilot. 

Pakistan is playing within its premises. They always gave a better answer. Just read unbiased history. My pilots are no less but Pakistani seem to have better training.

Once you enter Pakistan during war the whole concept changes you are right in front within their land base radar and AWACS. Now you have hidden targets from g2a and anti aircraft and their pilots.

I don't care for USAF pilot they never fought against real airforce. Indian and Pakistani have seen better airforce in past. Also these country possess better pilots.


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## SrNair

Luca1 said:


> It will be fun if France provide the first 2 RAFALE to escort Modi back to India




None cares about your opinion in here.

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## SrNair

Since when did the noisy Swamy become a top Aeronautical engineer like 'Kelly'Johnson.
Well he is talking too much about mileage  and performance

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## Stephen Cohen

We should lock up swamy and DIggy in a room

They will drive each other crazy

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## Suman

Stephen Cohen said:


> We should lock up swamy and DIggy in a room
> 
> They will drive each other crazy


funny hahaha, Diggi will lure subramanian with Anchor


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## anant_s

SrNair said:


> Since when did the noisy Swamy become a top Aeronautical engineer like 'Kelly'Johnson.
> Well he is talking too much about mileage  and performance


Swamiji your WORK reminds me of SKUNK, that could be Johnson's connection 
Skunk Works® · Lockheed Martin

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## SuperSubrayan

Guys let's call T a T ... so this article had lots of wrong info isn't it F3. 3 capable to fire Meteor and Nuclear war head ?


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## Niks

SUPARCO said:


> I'm surprised at the scared reaction of the Indian fanboys. Sounds like they've woken up to the reality of the MMRCA flop saga... just like they woke up to the LCA - Flying Rickshaws.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan has restricted any country from importing the JF-17 Thunder, so, if the push comes to shove there's always that option for India.


best of luck with your bandar then

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## Chanakya's_Chant

SuperSubrayan said:


> Guys let's call T a T ... so this article had lots of wrong info isn't it F3. 3 capable to fire Meteor and Nuclear war head ?



You mean TTA = Think Tank Analyst? As far as ASMP-A cruise missiles are concerned - they are not up for sale by France for them being a "pre-strategic" weapon, the last-resort "warning shot" prior to a full-scale employment of strategic nuclear weapons. Instead BrahMos-M will be used. 

And yes F3 standard is very well capable to fire Meteor BVRAAM. But where is it written it is not?

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## That Guy

Pulsar said:


> There is no cut in the overall numbers. *36 Rafales will be purchased in flyaway condition direct from France.* The remainder will be manufactured in India itself under a new HAL-Dassault consortium.


60-63 is the number being thrown around, that is cut from 126. If 36 is the number than it is new, and my comment was made probably before that number came to light.

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## Bornubus

Modi aya rafale laya

On top:Which AA missile would come with This Rafale F3


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## SuperSubrayan

So guys let's clarify for the record Rafale F3 can fire Meteor Missiles and we cane use Rafale for nuclear weapons delivery ?


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## Abingdonboy

SUPARCO said:


> I'm surprised at the scared reaction of the Indian fanboys. Sounds like they've woken up to the reality of the MMRCA flop saga... just like they woke up to the LCA - Flying Rickshaws.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan has restricted any country from importing the JF-17 Thunder, so, if the push comes to shove there's always that option for India.


This is the biggest load of BS I have heard in a long time.

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## duhastmish

SUPARCO said:


> I'm surprised at the scared reaction of the Indian fanboys. Sounds like they've woken up to the reality of the MMRCA flop saga... just like they woke up to the LCA - Flying Rickshaws.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan has restricted any country from importing the JF-17 Thunder, so, if the push comes to shove there's always that option for India.


Please don't bring jf17 here. Rafael is no match for it. Now su30 mki is like a child paper plane.

Good night it's a men discussion. Yours is most stupid comment I read whole day here

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## AMCA

SUPARCO said:


> I'm surprised at the scared reaction of the Indian fanboys. Sounds like they've woken up to the reality of the MMRCA flop saga... just like they woke up to the LCA - Flying Rickshaws.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan has restricted any country from importing the JF-17 Thunder, so, if the push comes to shove there's always that option for India.



Lol, thats the biggest Joke I've ever heard. The Kaveri engine that you people call "FAILED" has better ergonomics and performance than what powers your flagship aircraft. Speaks a lot about the sacrifice your forces have done to get something into their bowls. 

LCA on the other hand is an evolution of Indian Engineering. Your nation can only dream of building something like this, unless Chinese do it for you and give you kits to assemble.

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## Johny D

where the heck is much hyped TOT ,,and what abt Make In India?


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## axisofevil

Quick probing question. The UAE and other Guld nations typically don't make a move on fighter jet selection only after India does. Is there something more to it? They trust India will do a great job examining all the pro's and con's and thus their final selection will be a worthy jet? 


The other issue is how the UAE and other Gulf nations allow Pakistani's to fly their jets and engage in training. How will this affect India?


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## jamahir

magudi said:


> Are you serious ?
> Waste of billions when farmers are out there suiciding



i was being sarcastic... i was too tired then to post links to different things, including farmer suicides and the tag of "suicide capital of the world".

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## indianBong

AMCA said:


> Lol, thats the biggest Joke I've ever heard. The Kaveri engine that you people call "FAILED" has better ergonomics and performance than what powers your flagship aircraft. Speaks a lot about the sacrifice your forces have done to get something into their bowls.
> 
> LCA on the other hand is an evolution of Indian Engineering. Your nation can only dream of building something like this, unless Chinese do it for you and give you kits to assemble.




@Abingdonboy you people are forgetting they have a 10th gen aircraft which can bring down aircraft carrier, ballistic missile , heck even mangalayan from mars...... raphale is a kid in front of it..... so plzz accept that we are a failure.....



SUPARCO said:


> I'm surprised at the scared reaction of the Indian fanboys. Sounds like they've woken up to the reality of the MMRCA flop saga... just like they woke up to the LCA - Flying Rickshaws.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan has restricted any country from importing the JF-17 Thunder, so, if the push comes to shove there's always that option for India.





duhastmish said:


> These number of Rafael are too low to make any impact.
> More over Pakistan was not really kept in frame of mind for Rafael.
> 
> The whole Pakistani doctrine of minimum attack maximum defence is perfect. No matter how much india try to increase number once in the Pakistani territory their radar and most importantly better pilot. Will come in framework. In dog fights it's a Pakistani edge.




when 36 rafale won't create any impact to pak airforce.... then why do you people open threads like these... with everyone so tensed about only 36 rafale.......
Option's for PAF ?

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## Mustang06

Which all weapons would be bought in the package?
And what about pilot training?


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## SamantK

Cry.me.a.River said:


> I think it is opposite.
> 
> Had it been 63 , there was a high chance of MMRCA being dead as 63 is a sustainable number.
> 
> But 36 does not even make economic and operational sense for IAF. There is a very high chance that MMRCA is on but there are some technicalities left to be sorted out. With these 36 aircraft ordered, India could sort out those issues in sweet time.



What I meant is MMRCA in the current format is dead, Modi has brought with him a face saver and a chance to take up on offer any other jet, think of it. French can't complain we dint buy jets from them.


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## DeathInvader

SrNair said:


> None cares about your opinion in here.



I do, how else do you think I will get my entertainment at this forum?


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## munchkin

Interesting timing. J-20 and Rafael both delivery starting in 2017. Good competition.


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## Cry.me.a.River

duhastmish said:


> As for Pakistan they have superior pilot training. Just see the falling number of jets on indian side. They have much less andThey are flying older fighter.



Bhai, Jo muh me aayega woh bole chae jaaoge!!!

What superior pilot training? Would Pakistani mard-e-momin Übermensch shoot down IAF planes with their Imaan!!



Pilot training is directly proportional to hours flown by pilot which costs money , a lot of money;a metric which would be favorable for IAF by virtue of it having larger budget.


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## maniac@666

@halloweene @Gabriel92 @Taygibay @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy could any of you mates clarify whether we will getting Front-Sector Optronics(FSO)System on our rafale's,that we're getting because as per statement released it states that it should have all the systems that IAF tested on rafale during MMRCA competition.Production F3.3 versions don't have it(FSO)on them and Egyptian rafale's don't have it either.It's a bit confusing,on the other hand India wants latest tranche and all the goodies tested during MMRCA competition.Could that be possible?


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## maniac@666

Gabriel92 said:


> (If i understood well the question...) The FSO is fully integrated into the Rafale. (So yes)


but it's not in latest tranche F3.3 rafale,may be it will be integrated in rafale for India as per costumer's request.


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## maniac@666

Gabriel92 said:


> Where did you see/read that ?


didn't see in pics of Egyptian rafale and heard from a senior member on some another rafale thread that French air force is not interested in FSO any more and thales won't be producing next generation FSO ,Funding is not there.Just like HMDS, French air force is not interested in FSO.Will HMDS be integrated on Indian rafale?as it is one of the crucial requirement of IAF.


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## Abingdonboy

maniac@666 said:


> @halloweene @Gabriel92 @Taygibay @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy could any of you mates clarify whether we will getting Front-Sector Optronics(FSO)System on our rafale's,that we're getting because as per statement released it states that it should have all the systems that IAF tested on rafale during MMRCA competition.Production F3.3 versions don't have it(FSO)on them and Egyptian rafale's don't have it either.It's a bit confusing,on the other hand India wants latest tranche and all the goodies tested during MMRCA competition.Could that be possible?



FSO will come for the IAF's Rafales.



maniac@666 said:


> Will HMDS be integrated on Indian rafale?as it is one of the crucial requirement of IAF.



HMDS are part of the customer nominated equipment and thus will be coming on the IAF's Rafales (most likely TOPSIGHT-I)


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## ashok321

Swamy takes on Narendra Modi, calls new Rafale jet deal between India, France a 'case of arbitrariness' - IBNLive

*New Delhi:* Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition under a new deal with France has come will severe criticism from a prominent member of his own party. After meeting French President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday, Modi announced that Indian Air Force will get 36 Rafale jets which is apart from the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) agreement for 126 more planes.

But senior BJP leader Subramanian Swamy termed the new Rafale fighter jet deal between India and France a case of arbitrariness. Swamy is yet to decide on what action to take over Modi government's decision to purchase 36 aircraft from France.

Swamy said, "I have not yet decided on whether to approach the court. I am waiting for papers on the new Rafael deal. It prima facie appears to be a case of arbitrariness." Swamy requested Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.

"There are two major issues with the Rafale aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.

*"If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said.

Sources said that Finance Minister Arun Jaitley crafted the new arrangement between India and France during his brief spell as the defence minister earlier.*

IAF selected the Rafael fighter under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal after a close competition which also saw Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen in the race. While Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen were eliminated very early, Dassault Rafale edged out the Eurofighter Typhoon in the final negotiation.

At present the IAf has just 34 fighter squadrons against the ideal 45 squadrons required to take on the threat from both Pakistan and China simultaneously. The ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes are being phased out which will see the IAF strength depleting by at least eight more squadrons.

Under the MMRCA terms, India is to get only 18 Rafale directly while the rest 108 fighters will be manufactured by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. But the final deal between India and France is stuck over who would be responsible for the manufacturers' guarantee on 108 jets which could be built HAL. India wants Rafale maker Dassault Aviation to take full responsibility which the latter has till now not agreed to.


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## wali87

These 36 rafale aircrafts will be equiped with a PESA radars. It will be a while before indian airfirce upgrades them with Aesa. So technically PAF F-16 both 52s and MLUs armed with Recently aqcuired 120c5 missiles would be more than capable of keeping them at bay.

However PAF would require a couple ofnew squadrons of J10b or more f16s to counter the rising number of advanced fighters in IAF arsenal. AS per my sources, the number of rafales would probable rise to between 65-70 compared previously reports of 126.


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## axisofevil

magudi said:


> Utterly stupid move . Should've either cancelled the deal as a whole or signed it instaed of buying few off the shelf and giving france the leverage to arm twist us .Typical modi bhakts like you will upload the mess up we know
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious ?
> Waste of billions when farmers are out there suiciding






If we dont arm our forces properly, our enemies will keep eating up our land. As a result, of farmers will continue to die as they loose land to till.



As for the plane, how many choices do we have? A lot of folks on this forum will use the premise that we do not want to be arm twisted with sanctions and such, which eliminated a chunk of suppliers such as the Americans and the EFT. As a result, we are left with Russian and French. This deal and the entire negotiations was developed by Congress. Dont ever forget that. This tender was created in such a terrible way, it didnt allow Modi any room to develop more solutions. So thank Congress fo fuking up as they have done since Independence.


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## munchkin

144 is too many. 36 is a good number. Enough to replace the aging Mirages. India does not want to rely too much on any 1 country.


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## axisofevil

munchkin said:


> 144 is too many. 36 is a good number. Enough to replace the aging Mirages. India does not want to rely too much on any 1 country.





Better to rely on ourselves but only after we have attained a greater expertise in many spheres. Too many platforms is bad for us, regarding maintenance. More numbers is not a bad idea as the Rafale is a pretty good plane.


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## The_Sidewinder

Odysseus said:


> I dont think you can change the RFP like this. According to the following article we will be getting 36 (G-G contract) + 126 (according to MMRCA tender). Otherwise scarp the contract altogether and go for more G-G order.
> 
> Another interesting speculation made by the author is-
> "This has led to whispers of some other high-end defence technology transfers from France as a quid pro quo for this deal. One such technology being spoken about is the reactor for the Ship Submersible Ballistic Nuclear (SSBN) Submarine; India is currently in the process of making its first indigenous nuclear submarine, the Arihant."
> 
> Indian express: Rafale fighter jet deal- what does it mean for india? (Can't post links)



go to address bar & copy the url & paste it in your post. Simple. Assuming that your a newbee, am trying to help. 
Ignore if you know that already.


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## SuperSubrayan

ashok321 said:


> Swamy takes on Narendra Modi, calls new Rafale jet deal between India, France a 'case of arbitrariness' - IBNLive
> 
> *New Delhi:* Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition under a new deal with France has come will severe criticism from a prominent member of his own party. After meeting French President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday, Modi announced that Indian Air Force will get 36 Rafale jets which is apart from the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) agreement for 126 more planes.
> 
> But senior BJP leader Subramanian Swamy termed the new Rafale fighter jet deal between India and France a case of arbitrariness. Swamy is yet to decide on what action to take over Modi government's decision to purchase 36 aircraft from France.
> 
> Swamy said, "I have not yet decided on whether to approach the court. I am waiting for papers on the new Rafael deal. It prima facie appears to be a case of arbitrariness." Swamy requested Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.
> 
> "There are two major issues with the Rafale aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.
> 
> *"If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said.
> 
> Sources said that Finance Minister Arun Jaitley crafted the new arrangement between India and France during his brief spell as the defence minister earlier.*
> 
> IAF selected the Rafael fighter under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal after a close competition which also saw Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen in the race. While Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen were eliminated very early, Dassault Rafale edged out the Eurofighter Typhoon in the final negotiation.
> 
> At present the IAf has just 34 fighter squadrons against the ideal 45 squadrons required to take on the threat from both Pakistan and China simultaneously. The ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes are being phased out which will see the IAF strength depleting by at least eight more squadrons.
> 
> Under the MMRCA terms, India is to get only 18 Rafale directly while the rest 108 fighters will be manufactured by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. But the final deal between India and France is stuck over who would be responsible for the manufacturers' guarantee on 108 jets which could be built HAL. India wants Rafale maker Dassault Aviation to take full responsibility which the latter has till now not agreed to.


SWAMI sir making a huge mistake. Before people was so optimistic about Corrupted congress. But this move will back fire. 

SWAMI sir can go go Court it's his right but this govt will do its due duty . Rafale is a Mess to be selected over EF strong evidence of kickbacks like Scorpene deals scam . It's one of the reason RAFL can't decrease it's price . But negotiations are going on for correcting it. Rafale is need he hour . EF is not ready for multi role


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## Odysseus

The_Sidewinder said:


> go to address bar & copy the url & paste it in your post. Simple. Assuming that your a newbee, am trying to help.
> Ignore if you know that already.



Thanks for the info mate, but I am not able to post links cause the forum couldn't permit me until I reach a count of 30 posts. 

PS: not a newbie

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## egodoc222

SUPARCO said:


> I'm surprised at the scared reaction of the Indian fanboys. Sounds like they've woken up to the reality of the MMRCA flop saga... just like they woke up to the LCA - Flying Rickshaws.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan has restricted any country from importing the JF-17 Thunder, so, if the push comes to shove there's always that option for India.


i would say if push comes to shove...you guys shove it up your...

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## Pulsar

Bornubus said:


> On top:Which AA missile would come with This Rafale F3


Something akin to this....

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## Odysseus

How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it’s a winner: TOI


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## kaykay

wali87 said:


> These 36 rafale aircrafts will be equiped with a PESA radars. It will be a while before indian airfirce upgrades them with Aesa. So technically PAF F-16 both 52s and MLUs armed with Recently aqcuired 120c5 missiles would be more than capable of keeping them at bay.
> 
> However PAF would require a couple ofnew squadrons of J10b or more f16s to counter the rising number of advanced fighters in IAF arsenal. AS per my sources, the number of rafales would probable rise to between 65-70 compared previously reports of 126.


Naah. They will be equipped with RBE2-AA'S ( AESA radars) along with Spectra suite from very start. By the way number of Rafale will now rise to 144 from 126 earlier, 36+108 now compared to 18+108 earlier. Seems you have missed many infos so I will suggest that go through the entire thread.

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## cirr

Talk，talk，talk！

When will you guys stop talking and actually start doing something，on your own？


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## ashok321



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## anant_s

ashok321 said:


> Swamy said, "I have not yet decided on whether to approach the court. I am waiting for papers on the new Rafael deal. It prima facie appears to be a case of arbitrariness." Swamy requested Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.


Swami must realize that it was IAF that selected Rafale not UPA. It could be justified had he been taking objections over its price and other commercial issues, but don't think he is qualified to make comments Technicality of the selection process. The issue won't stand ground in any court of law, Swami being a legal eagle should understand this better than anyone.


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## ashok321

"Our main challenge is to create jobs for the young -- 800 million Indians are less than 35 years old," Modi told Le Figaro daily. 

HAL issue would be solved somehow.



anant_s said:


> Swami must realize that it was IAF that selected Rafale not UPA. It could be justified had he been taking objections over its price and other commercial issues, but don't think he is qualified to make comments Technicality of the selection process. The issue won't stand ground in any court of law, Swami being a legal eagle should understand this better than anyone.



SS is on the back foot. Would retreat.

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## Pichkari

Abingdonboy said:


> FSO will come for the IAF's Rafales.
> 
> 
> 
> HMDS are part of the customer nominated equipment and thus will be coming on the IAF's Rafales (most likely TOPSIGHT-I)



IMO FSO will come but hmd will not.
For HMD customer fuding is required for intgration which hasn;t happened yet.


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## PARIKRAMA

Few Articles on the topic

*RAFALE STORY FAR FROM OVER; GOVT TO KEEP HAL IN THE LOOP*








_by Dr. Anantha Krishnan M_
*BANGALORE*: Thirty-six Rafale jets for the plane-deprived Indian Air Force (IAF) from Dassault Aviation! That's buzz all around since last night after Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang yet another surprise. Finally, the much-hyped mother of all deals jettisoned out of the red-tape-trap, with even the number 36 surprising many.

Plane pundits are already out with many theories, with some even wondering the ‘logic' behind going for such a small order, which is just enough to fill only two Squadrons.

But, those who saw the Rafale script from close quarters confirm to OneIndia that the story is far from over. Any more surprises on this front? "Can't predict," they say.

*HAL will be kept in the loop*

Sources confirm that the Modi government is in no mood to push Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) away, despite a strong private lobby wanting it to be out of the Rafale frame.

"Any additional orders for Rafales will have to be via the Make in India route and it will be HAL who will be manufacturing the same. The private sector too will be roped in subsequently," an official in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said.

When asked about the fate of various Price Negotiation Committees (PNCs) looking into the 126 MMRCA deal, the official said: "Some clarity will emerge in the next one month."

The official said that the government was ‘aware of the implications' it would face following its decision to take the direct purchase route.

"It was expected that many would see it as a stand away from the Make in India policy. The numbers (36) should be seen as a pointer towards the government's thought process. Private industries and HAL will play a significant role in the new scheme of things set to unfold," the official said.

When asked whether RFP process in which Dassault Aviation has emerged as an L-1 stands nullified now, the official refused to comment.

*Fate of RFP a closed chapter: Matheswaran*

Reacting to the deal, Air Marshal M Matheswaran (Retd), former Deputy Chief of the Integrated Defence Staff (Policy, Planning and Development), IAF and currently an Advisor to HAL, told OneIndia the government's was keen to find a quick solution.

"The PNCs are good if they find a logical solution. In my personal opinion the RFP is a closed chapter now. I am sure the government will take a fresh call. All the future moves will be linked to Make in India, ToT (Transfer of Technology), production standards, delivery schedules and HAL's role," says Matheswaran. He had played a significant role when the IAF decided to go for the MMRCAs.

"The fate of the RFP (for the 126 Rafales as per the original tender now estimated around $20 billion) is now in the hands of the government. Plugging the gap was the key. The government could go in for any aircraft now which can fit into the Make in India plan," says the former IAF official, now a leading think-tank on military matters.

*Govt got some breathing space now*

When asked about the allegations that ‘HAL will not be in a position to roll out quality Rafales,' Matheswaran said that the premier aerospace company has been delivering different types of aircraft over the years.

"The vendor has no business to raise the issue at the end of the negotiation. Yes, I am for a good private eco system coming up for the benefit of aviation in India," Matheswaran said.

He said the decision to buy 36 Rafales in a fly-away was purely to strengthen the strategic partnership with the France. ‘It's a G-to-G decision and we have had the Mirages-2000s coming in the same format 30 years back," he added.

He said the government has got some breathing space now with the decision to go in for 36 fighters. "There's some room to move around. The freedom to take new decisions," Matheswaran added. He said that the Dassault has the capability to deliver all the 36 Rafales to IAF in the next two years.

*HAL's Bangalore Complex warms up to Rafale*

HAL insiders say that the Company has gone some distance in handling a new fighter plane and associated technologies. HAL's famed Bangalore Complex, which has manufactured many flying platforms in the last seven decades, has already warmed up to the Rafales.

"We have spent lot of time in the last five years. Much before the Make in India concept came, we were prepared to handle a new platform. It is now certain that the IAF will go for more Rafales. We have held series of consultations with Dassault and many of our engineers have gone to their facilities has well," an official said.

When asked about the built-quality concerns, the official said, "It's unfair to rake up a scenario before we reach there. There could have been instances of quality concerns in the past, but Bangalore Complex's recent track record in delivering Hawks needs to be factored in."

OneIndia has confirmed that HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju is among the delegates accompanying Modi during the current Paris trip.

_(The writer is a seasoned aerospace and defence journalist in India. He is the Consultant Editor (Defence) with OneIndia. He tweets __@writetake__)_

_Rafale story far from over; Govt to keep HAL in the loop - Oneindia_


*RAFALE FIGHTER JET DEAL: WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR INDIA?*
_



_

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, left, is greeted by French President Francois Hollande before a meeting at the Elysee Palace, in Paris, France, Friday, as part of a European tour for Modi (Source: AP photo)

During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France this week, India asked France to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets in “fly-away” condition “as quickly as possible”. This is under a government-to-government deal, unlike the tender currently being negotiated by the Ministry of Defence with Dassault, Rafale’s manufacturer.

For that tender, Rafale had earlier been chosen as the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) after a stringent technical evaluation and global tender process which has lasted a decade. That tender proposed the purchase of 18 Rafale aircraft in “fly-away” condition, and 108 to be made operational by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a transfer of technology clause.

Subsequently, the deal has been mired in controversies. It has been alleged that Dassault Aviation has refused to transfer technology, increased the price in violation of the original tender, and refused to take charge of timely deliveries for the aircraft produced in India.

The ostensible reason for India starting a separate process, away from the 126 aircraft deal, is to urgently meet the “critical operational necessity” of the IAF. IAF is now down to 34 squadrons from its authorised 42, and successive Air Chiefs have highlighted the necessity of expeditiously acquiring the MMRCA. This is way of rapidly alleviating the IAF’s most immediate concerns, while leaving room for future negotiations.

Dr Iskander Rehman, non-resident Fellow in the South Asia Programme at the Atlantic Council says, “I can only imagine the collective sighs of relief at this announcement, not only amongst the French employees of Dassault, but also within the IAF, which has repeatedly expressed its concern over the steady haemorrhaging of the Indian air fleet. This acquisition couldn’t have been more pressing in nature.”





Prime Minister Narendra Modi, left, with French President Francois Hollande attend a joint press conference at the Elysee Palace, in Paris, France, Friday. (Source: AP photo)

The bold political call taken by the Indian government is also a reflection of the frustration on both sides at how bogged down the deal has got in terms of procedures and pricing negotiations. As it is a government-to-government deal, India should be able to get these aircraft cheaper. The negotiations over price are still on but experts estimate at least a 10% lower price for these 36 aircraft. With limited funds available for capital acquisition in the defence budget, monetary considerations are an important factor in any major Indian procurement.

The announcement, however, doesn’t talk about making Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a core proposition of the original tender. This multi-billion dollar procurement thus runs contrary to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Make in India plan for the defence sector.

This has led to whispers of some other high-end defence technology transfers from France as a quid pro quo for this deal. One such technology being spoken about is the reactor for the Ship Submersible Ballistic Nuclear (SSBN) Submarine; India is currently in the process of making its first indigenous nuclear submarine, the Arihant. A nuclear submarine is seen as the best guarantor for a second strike capability in case of a nuclear conflict because it can stay underwater for longer periods than a diesel submarine, which needs to come to the surface for oxygen intake.

Speculation aside, there are doubts that France will part with such technology. “India badly needs help perfecting its SSBN reactors, but something tells me that that technology is way too sensitive for the French to part with it, even if India tries to strongarm them over the Rafale deal,” a French military analyst told The Indian Express.

Whatever be the case, India seems to have firmly thrown its lot with the Rafale. *Already running a mix of seven different fighter aircraft, it is highly unlikely that India will stop at buying 36 Rafale aircraft which can equip only two squadrons. This should put an end to speculation about another rival MMRCA manufacturer bagging the 126-aircraft deal.* However, Air Vice Marshal (retd) Manmohan Bahadur, Distinguished Fellow at the Centre for Air Power Studies though warns, “Nothing is certain. IAF has worked with only two squadrons of Mirage 2000 and two of Mig-29 earlier.”

The most pressing question that has cropped up after this 36 aircraft government-to-government deal is: what happens to the original tender of 126 Rafale fighters? The best option is for the ongoing negotiations to be completed under the current tender wherein India gets another 126 aircraft from Dassault. If India doesn’t want another 126 Rafale fighters, it would have to go for the option of issuing a new tender process. That is an extremely time-consuming process, with no guarantee that Rafale will again emerge as the winner.

The third option for India would be to go for a follow-up government-to-government deal with France for additional Rafale aircraft. This could include an option for Transfer of Technology to make them in India. AVM Bahadur suggests a way in which the current deal could help the Make in India programme in the defence sector. The Maintenance Transfer of Technology (MTOT) for these 36 Rafale fighters, Air Marshal Bahadur suggests, should go to a private vendor instead of HAL. The DPP (2013 revised) clearly specifies that nomination of DPSUs like HAL for MTOT can be done away with and the contract given to a private vendor.

“We have so far not leveraged the MTOTs. If we give the Rafale MTOT to a private player, positive spin-offs will happen as it will expose that vendor to R&D and modern technology,” AVM Bahadur said.

“It will take another five years for Rafale to go for maintenance, and that is a long enough period for a private player to create the capacity – hangars, jigs, procedures, equipment, trained manpower. Even HAL will have to do this from scratch, which is no different for a private player, and it is better we get the private sector in now,” AVM Bahadur added.

All the experts, however, agree on one thing. It is too early to conclude anything concrete about the 36 fighter procurements unless more details of the deal are made public by the government.

Rafale fighter jet deal: What does it mean for India? | The Indian Express | Page 99

*RAFALE DEAL – NAMO ACTS IN NATIONAL INTEREST, NO TIME FOR SECOND-GUESSING*






The biggest highlight of day one in France of Prime Minister Narendra Modi is the announcement that India will buy 36 Rafale jets from France in fly-away condition soon.

*The announcement comes even as some have attempted to second guess*_* (Subramanian Swamy) the Prime Minister’s decision unmindful of the fact that he was still on f*_*oreign soil.* For long the bipartisan Foreign Policy tradition in India has been to keep domestic disagreement back home with even the Opposition respecting this tradition. It is unfortunate that those closer home have chosen to go public with their disagreement even as the Prime Minister was conducting the nation’s business in France.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar however hailed the decision while exuding confidence that the Rafale jets will be inducted in the Indian Air Force in the coming two years. This is a major breakthrough as the MMRCA deal had been pending since last 17 years.

_*Jagran Post* added that, India and France had been locked in negotiations for three years over the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets valued at 12 billion USD. They were unable to seal the deal over cost and Dassault Aviation’s reluctance to stand guarantee for 108 planes to be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)._

_Dinakar Peri wrote for The Hindu that,_

_“The major reason for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale jets from France are the fast – depleting fighter strength of the Indian Air Force, ending delays in the Medium Multi – Role Combat Aircraft negotiations and the steep price rise."_

The fighter aircraft strength has fallen drastically to 34 squadrons from the sanctioned 42 and is set to further dip with the phasing out of MiG – 21s and MiG -27s in the next few years. The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, has flagged the issue on several occasions.”

_Sushant Singh while writing for The Indian Express said that,_

_“The ostensible reason for India starting a separate process, away from the 126 aircraft deal, is to urgently meet the “critical operational necessity” of the IAF. IAF is now down to 34 squadrons from its authorised 42, and successive Air Chiefs have highlighted the necessity of expeditiously acquiring the MMRCA. This is way of rapidly alleviating the IAF’s most immediate concerns, while leaving room for future negotiations.”_

_On this topic China.org reported that,_

_“France’s Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian would travel to India soon to finalise the deal, according to the French president. The contract could be worth 4 billion euros (4.24 billion U.S. dollars), with the price of a Rafale is estimated at 110 million euros without arms.”_

_China.org also added that,_

_“The Rafale, manufactured by French company Dassault Aviation, is a twin-engine delta-wing multi-role jet fighter. Since it was introduced in 2000, it only serves in the French navy. Due to its high price, the French aircraft faces competition from Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Gripen NG from Sweden’s Saab.”_

_Manu Pubby wrote for The Times of India about the Rafale deal that,_

_“After a series of twists and turns, a multi-billion dollar deal for new fighter jets for the Air Force has hit the last mile with the NDA government determined to iron out differences and wrap up negotiations with an out-of-the-box solution to end a two-year deadlock. A test of political will to find an innovative approach to ink a contract that was threatening to get out of hand, but one that had significant strategic and geopolitical implications, has been on display in the lead up to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris, where the Rafale deal has been firmed up along with a memorandum of understanding on joint defence production in India.”_

Vijainder K Thakur wrote on MyIndMakers on the same lines as Mr. Pubby and added that those who say that Su-30MKI is more capable as the Ralae in WVR (within visual range) is not true. He adds that:

_“The Su-30MKI is more maneuverable in WVR, only at low speeds. The Rafale outmaneuvers the Su-30MKI when energy levels are high. In a typical air-to-air engagement, It takes more than 40-secs of max g maneuvering for speeds to bleed off to an extent where the Su-30MKI begins to gain advantage and most WVR engagements end before 40-secs. The Rafale has an edge over the Su-30MKI in other important ways. Sensor fusion makes the aircraft a single pilot platform reducing costs, and gives it an edge in heavily contested airspace. In simpler words, threat assessment and engagement is automated to a greater degree.”_

Rafale deal – NaMo acts in National Interest, no time for second-guessing ~ Indian Defence News

*RAFALE DEAL: CONGRESS SPEAKS IN DIFFERENT VOICES - SLAMS SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY*

*NEW DELHI: *A day after Subramanian Swamy threatened to take legal recourse over the Rafale jet deal, Congress today spoke in different voices on the issue with Amarinder Singh strongly defending the purchase and asking Swamy not to sabotage it, and Digvijay Singh daring the BJP leader to move court.

"This statement (of Swamy threatening to go to court) is obviously for settling scores with the Prime Minister for not being taken into the cabinet," Congress Deputy Leader in the Lok Sabha Amarinder said in a statement, wondering whether Swamy's "personal requirement come before that of the nation?"

*Welcoming the government's decision to buy Rafale fighter jets from France to strengthen capability of Indian Air Force, Amarinder said, "For heaven's sake put your personal agenda aside for a while as this concerns the Defence of the Nation."*

Amarinder's strong defence of the deal came close on the heels of Congress General Secretary Digvijay Singh daring Swamy to move court over the Rafale deal a day after the latter threatened to take legal recourse claiming that there were shortcomings in the fighter aircraft.

"I dare Subramanian Swamy to go to court on Rafale Jet purchase," Singh said in a tweet, a day after Swamy threatened to move court if the government went ahead with the deal. Expressing surprise over India buying 36 'Ready to Fly' Rafale jets from France off the shelf, Singh wondered, "Is this the new Defence Purchase Policy of GOI? Would CAG/CVC please take notice."

Amarinder, who had served in the Army, said purchase of 36 jets to equip two squadrons was crucial for strengthening the IAF, as are the others, which are to follow.

The deal was decided during the Prime Minister current visit to France.

"It is time that we all look to the Defence of the nation, rather than playing politics," Amarinder said, insisting that all three Services require the government's "urgent attention" to make good their requirements.

Amarinder lamented that each year budgetary allocations for the Defence Ministry lapse as the decision making process goes "inactive, once again to the detriment of the nation". Amarinder claimed the country's defence forces were "badly short" of modern and sophisticated equipment and weapons.

"The Chinese air force has a 3:1 superiority over us, and against a minimum requirement of 45 squadrons the IAF has only 32," he said, adding that of these, 32 are MIG-21 jets which were first introduced in 1965 and have outlived their utility.

Amarinder, the former Punjab Chief Minister, claimed that the Armoured Corps has no fresh first line ammunition, the Infantry needs a new rifle, as the INSAS is not liked by the troops as they consider it ineffective.

AICC General Secretary Digvijay Singh also took a dig at the working of the Modi dispensation.

Taking a swipe at the Modi government's slogan of 'Minimum Government, Maximum Governance', he said, "When (the) Prime Minister was buying fighter aircraft in France our Defence Minister was buying fish in Goa! Minimum Government and Maximum Governance."

"When (the) Prime Minister is signing deals abroad Foreign Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj is propagating Modi's future achievements in Vidisha, Madhya Pradesh. Another example of Minimum Government and Maximum Governance", he said.

Amarinder said "for the AK 47, used extensively on the counter infiltration grid, we have to import ammunition as we are not making any in India". Besides, he said, "all major armies of the world use the 155 Howitzer as the standard medium gun".

"The Chinese have a vast submarine fleet and we are yet in the planning stage! What about the state of our defence roads when China has four-lane roads and even railways, right up to our border, we have been waiting for these since 1962!" Amarinder said.

Meanwhile, Congress spokesman Sanjay Jha said in a tweet, "The Rafale purchase is another brazen u-turn by PM Modi. It will help only France get a big sales order. What happened to 'Make in India'?"

Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 as it quoted the lowest price.

Rafale Deal: Congress Speaks in Different Voices -The New Indian Express


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## Taygibay

maniac@666 said:


> but it's not in latest tranche F3.3 rafale,may be it will be integrated in rafale for India as per costumer's request.



Excellent question, the answer to which is a little complex. The F3.3 has an OSF just not the full original OSF.
OSF-IT was the designation of the replacement equipment to the original, some of which parts had become obsolete and were not in production anymore. The IT version does not include an IR watch channel because this function is taken over by the wingtip MICAs. Of course this is a temporary solution since once fired, these missiles cannot fulfill the job anymore. The bet was that it did not matter to the AdlA in part due to peace time situation and also because the OSF kits received so far can be ported from jet to jet quickly as per need.
The Egyptian Raffys will have the OSF-IT.

As for the Indian 36 ones, Namo signed for ACs to the MMRCA standard. That should thus include a full OSF and an HMCS. The latter is no problem as it was tested. The former should be corrected and in fact was waiting for an export order requiring it to be funded and implemented. I cannot at the moment say which of the three following solutions Sagem will pick however :
A- new design; B- porting the MICA IR Head; C- porting the DDM-NG sensor.
You have to remember this tough : even the TV only OSF-IT already has a bit of IR spectrum abilities as almost all modern digital cameras do.
In any case, this is not a challenge for the industrials and is likely to be resolved very easily. I will let you know when I have a definitive and cleared for public answer.

For the rest of the gang, one remark : how come Indians reknowned through time for their math skills can't count?

Modi said separate deal; MMRCA said 126; 126 + 36 = 162. SEPARATE?
The MMRCA is not dead, guys and if it concludes in a couple months, say end of summer, this could come to help poor HAL have more time to start the line. I'm sorry if it hurts the pride of the most nationalists amongst you but HAL is slow. IT did not produce the Su-30 MKI in alloted time and you all know it. As this order is separate, it will still face the same challenge when/if the MMRCA gets signed. The 18 jets made in France will thus still be necessary as a time buffer IMHoO and clearly in that of Dassault.

Good news is : it means 3 squadrons by IAF metrics to be integrated sooner which covers the declining numbers.

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. Swamy is a moron, period! If his statement from that article to the effect that the Rafale was the worst plane in Libya - and not Egypt as there was no war there - is not the usual BS for Indian press, he should not even be allowed to buy spoons, too technical for him, much less figthters.

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## Odysseus

Taygibay said:


> Excellent question, the answer to which is a little complex. The F3.3 has an OSF just not the full original OSF.
> OSF-IT was the designation of the replacement equipment to the original, some of which parts had become obsolete and were not in production anymore. The IT version does not include an IR watch channel because this function is taken over by the wingtip MICAs. Of course this is a temporary solution since once fired, these missiles cannot fulfill the job anymore. The bet was that it did not matter to the AdlA in part due to peace time situation and also because the OSF kits received so far can be ported from jet to jet quickly as per need.
> The Egyptian Raffys will have the OSF-IT.
> 
> As for the Indian 36 ones, Namo signed for ACs to the MMRCA standard. That should thus include a full OSF and an HMCS. The latter is no problem as it was tested. The former should be corrected and in fact was waiting for an export order requiring it to be funded and implemented. I cannot at the moment say which of the three following solutions Sagem will pick however :
> A- new design; B- porting the MICA IR Head; C- porting the DDM-NG sensor.
> You have to remember this tough : even the TV only OSF-IT already has a bit of IR spectrum abilities as almost all modern digital cameras do.
> In any case, this is not a challenge for the industrials and is likely to be resolved very easily. I will let you know when I have a definitive and cleared for public answer.
> 
> For the rest of the gang, one remark : how come Indians reknowned through time for their math skills can't count?
> 
> Modi said separate deal; MMRCA said 126; 126 + 36 = 162. SEPARATE?
> The MMRCA is not dead, guys and if it concludes in a couple months, say end of summer, this could come to help poor HAL have more time to start the line. I'm sorry if it hurts the pride of the most nationalists amongst you but HAL is slow. IT did not produce the Su-30 MKI in alloted time and you all know it. As this order is separate, it will still face the same challenge when/if the MMRCA gets signed. The 18 jets made in France will thus still be necessary as a time buffer IMHoO and clearly in that of Dassault.
> 
> Good news is : it means 3 squadrons by IAF metrics to be integrated sooner which covers the declining numbers.
> 
> Good day all, Tay.
> 
> P.S. Swamy is a moron, period! If his statement from that article to the effect that the Rafale was the worst plane in Libya - and not Egypt as there was no war there - is not the usual BS for Indian press, he should not even be allowed to buy spoons, too technical for him, much less figthters.



I have been telling this since the announcement of the G2G contract that its going to be 36 (g2g) +126 (mmrca) rafales. Two separate deals. One cannot just change the RFP after its finalization. 

You know how these desi journos are, very confused lot.

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## TopCat

Sad very sad. Indians should had known the depth of their pocket before making a fuzz about MMRCA.


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## Taygibay

Odysseus said:


> You know how these desi journos are, very confused lot.



Incredibly so my poor chap but take heart, it's reallly not that much better anywhere else! 
Not much of a consolation lot, I know!

Read you later, Tay.


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## The_Sidewinder

iajdani said:


> Sad very sad. Indians should had known the depth of their pocket before making a fuzz about MMRCA.


Mr. * Aladeen * strikes again.

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## 帅的一匹

Indian Patriot said:


> It is futile to argue with people blinded on nationalist fervor. Wait and watch, that is the only cure for fools like you. The 36 Rafales will not be inducted before 2020.


I say before year 2017.

the contract of Rafale deal is singed too late, it shall have entered into service by now.


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## kaykay

iajdani said:


> Sad very sad. Indians should had known the depth of their pocket before making a fuzz about MMRCA.


Seems India just realised that and now ordering 144 Rafales(36+108), an increase of 18 from what planned earlier.

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## Skull and Bones

iajdani said:


> Sad very sad. Indians should had known the depth of their pocket before making a fuzz about MMRCA.



Only if Bangladeshis learned to read, before talking.

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## Ammyy

iajdani said:


> Sad very sad. Indians should had known the depth of their pocket before making a fuzz about MMRCA.



Yes we should learn from bangladesh aid/beg/loan.... Really impressive way to make a force

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## gslv mk3

SUPARCO said:


> Sounds like they've woken up to the reality of the MMRCA flop saga... just like they woke up to the LCA - Flying Rickshaws.



Meh ...calling LCA a flying rickshaw..while your own country cannot develop an effing microlight..

what a troll...

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## Ammyy

SUPARCO said:


> I'm surprised at the scared reaction of the Indian fanboys. Sounds like they've woken up to the reality of the MMRCA flop saga... just like they woke up to the LCA - Flying Rickshaws.




Still its much better then your FC1 which even Zimbabwe refuse to induct into its airforce 



> I don't think Pakistan has restricted any country from importing the JF-17 Thunder, so, if the push comes to shove there's always that option for India.



 It can only fulfil Pakistan requirement, cause even Zimbabwe dnt want this mighty aircraft.

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## gslv mk3

SUPARCO said:


> The foreign content of the LCA/Flying Rickshaws depends on how you measure it. If you measure by volume, the foreign content is significantly less than 90% because the Indian composite panels (used in the wings), landing gear, and tires take up a lot of room.
> 
> If you measure by value, the "Indian" LCA/Flying Rickshaws is 90% foreign:
> 
> 1. American GE F414 engine
> 2. Israeli Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar
> 3. Israeli Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS)
> 4. French Sextant multi-function displays (MFDs)
> 5. British Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat
> 6. Israeli Rafael laser Litening Targeting Pods (which is derived from American Northrop Grumman technology)
> 7. Russian GSh-23 cannon
> 8. Russian/Israeli missiles
> 9. French Sagem SIGMA 95N ring-laser gyroscope
> 10. British BAE Systems ship-sets of actuators (at $2 million each) for LCA/Flying Rickshaws
> 11. Canadian canopy sheath
> 12. British air-to-air refueling probe
> 13. British nose cone



FYI

Now read my posts in this and enlighten yourself

HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Page 40

I dont want to debate with a dumb troll who claims that the weapon systems,HMDS ,ejector seat etc would make an aircraft less indigenous

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## SamantK

SUPARCO said:


> *Foreign componentry in the LCA Flying Rickshaws.*
> 
> The foreign content of the LCA/Flying Rickshaws depends on how you measure it. If you measure by volume, the foreign content is significantly less than 90% because the Indian composite panels (used in the wings), landing gear, and tires take up a lot of room.
> 
> If you measure by value, the "Indian" LCA/Flying Rickshaws is 90% foreign:
> 
> 1. American GE F414 engine
> 2. Israeli Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar
> 3. Israeli Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS)
> 4. French Sextant multi-function displays (MFDs)
> 5. British Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat
> 6. Israeli Rafael laser Litening Targeting Pods (which is derived from American Northrop Grumman technology)
> 7. Russian GSh-23 cannon
> 8. Russian/Israeli missiles
> 9. French Sagem SIGMA 95N ring-laser gyroscope
> 10. British BAE Systems ship-sets of actuators (at $2 million each) for LCA/Flying Rickshaws
> 11. Canadian canopy sheath
> 12. British air-to-air refueling probe
> 13. British nose cone
> 
> PakDef


So you are saying anyone with components such as these cab build a fighter jet? Why didnt you then, why import the junks?

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## ganesh177

Title of the thread is wrong and misleading.
Either edit it or close the thread. And make a new one.


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## Screambowl

ganesh177 said:


> Title of the thread is wrong and misleading.
> Either edit it or close the thread. And make a new one.



I had posted a correct one, PM requests 36 in fly away conditions.. they have merged it with this one.

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## Su-11

What a moron this PM is. If this was done by congress then everyone would be screaming out and out of the sellouts and corruption, but this automatically becomes a brilliant decision since the dumbasses who elected this dumbass to office have to defend their dumdass decision. Dumbocrazy at work!!
How is this a brilliant decision to buy a plane which costs 700 crore RS!!! Fuuucking shit!!


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## Ammyy

Su-11 said:


> What a moron this PM is. If this was done by congress then everyone would be screaming out and out of the sellouts and corruption, but this automatically becomes a brilliant decision since the dumbasses who elected this dumbass to office have to defend their dumdass decision. Dumbocrazy at work!!
> How is this a brilliant decision to buy a plane which costs 700 crore RS!!! Fuuucking shit!!




Are you out of your mind .... MF congressi/Antony did not conclude this deal from 2007, why? Just to show themselves clean. IAF dying for new aircrafts. This government did right thing on right time. Meanwhile MMRCA contract will be signed.


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## PARIKRAMA

A very good analysis by a fellow poster in a different forum. I am pasting it here for the logical reasoning he had showed about the whole deal. Perhaps reader can comment on after reading on this

_I think the 36 rafale order is a trap & a message to dasault. I think there are 2 scenarios which can play out here. 
The contentious issues are pricing of the MMRCA (126 + 63 options) + probable 45 rafale m for IN reportedly Dassault is asking for a price hike which we are not willing to pay as it will create a controversy & a scandal. The dassault has increased the quoted price of MMRCA which we are not agreeing to pay, and now we made an offer to buy 36 in G2G contract with better terms than those offered under MMRCA. 

So the focus shifts back to pricing of MMRCA Offer as the pricing for 36 too depends on MMRCA quotes, because the whole game is now dependent upon it 

*Scenario 1 *
Now suppose dasault plays ball on MMRCA and agrees to original 12-14 billion quote then Dassault gets orders for 36+126+63 options+ probably 45 rafale M for IN = 270 Rafales

So if Dassault plays ball on MMRCA pricing and agrees to stick to original quote then there is an order for 225-270 for it to take. 

Of course it will have to take some hit right now but will earn much much more for spares, support, MLU etc etc and france will benefit in terms of weapons for 225 -270 instead of just for 36 now this could happen by MMRCA or by Su30 MKI like deal. 

Biggest - BJP will avoid a major controversy 

*Scenario 2*
Dasault does not play ball on MMRCA price and stick to asking upward revision in price then in such a case we will still buy 36 at higher prices BUT
if Modi govt went for Su30MKi like deal with incremantal orders at different price points which will effectively mean that Modi govt is willingly giving price hike to Dassault when the tender a route to get low priced rafale is till alive it will invite a major controversy & corruption allegations & scandal allegations - which it seems inclined to avoid . (read Subramanium Swamy and PILs)

so in such a case - MMRCA & SU30MKI like deal both gets ruled out 
so in such a scenario we still purchase 36 rafale at higher prices and keep the french govt happy - Dassault is too happy at they are going to supply 36 at higher prices but they can effectively forget the rest of the 126+63+45 rafle M 
with 36 Iaf gets a breather till 2020

modi govt avoids a major controvery & gets time till 2017 to work out the options so effectively 36 is what we are buying with higher prices and thats it no more second lot of 36 or 24 & MMRCA is History._

*Thus its a potential 225-270 birds order versus just 36 with MMRCA cancellation.
*
@halloweene @Abingdonboy @sancho @SuperSubrayan @MilSpec @jarves @SpArK @Capt.Popeye @Gabriel92 : 

What you all feel with this logic? i feel Eric Trappier is at crossroads with the toughest decision of his lifetime.. I mean who would not want a order of 225-270 birds and claim Rafale as one of the most successful 4.5+G bird or focus on just profits and be happy with 36 Indian order and try harder at Qatar/Malaysia (say another 24-36 each)..


SIDE NOTE: Why are some journos like Ajai Shukla are reporting that 36 jets is a hogwash and primarily its a quid pro quo for a miniaturized nuke reactor which is for future N Sub program for India? i thot we are already studying Chakra reactor and upgrading to 140+ Mw reactors for future subs.. is the areva -L&T deal just for name?

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## MilSpec

PARIKRAMA said:


> A very good analysis by a fellow poster in a different forum. I am pasting it here for the logical reasoning he had showed about the whole deal. Perhaps reader can comment on after reading on this
> 
> _I think the 36 rafale order is a trap & a message to dasault. I think there are 2 scenarios which can play out here.
> The contentious issues are pricing of the MMRCA (126 + 63 options) + probable 45 rafale m for IN reportedly Dassault is asking for a price hike which we are not willing to pay as it will create a controversy & a scandal. The dassault has increased the quoted price of MMRCA which we are not agreeing to pay, and now we made an offer to buy 36 in G2G contract with better terms than those offered under MMRCA.
> 
> So the focus shifts back to pricing of MMRCA Offer as the pricing for 36 too depends on MMRCA quotes, because the whole game is now dependent upon it
> 
> *Scenario 1 *
> Now suppose dasault plays ball on MMRCA and agrees to original 12-14 billion quote then Dassault gets orders for 36+126+63 options+ probably 45 rafale M for IN = 270 Rafales
> 
> So if Dassault plays ball on MMRCA pricing and agrees to stick to original quote then there is an order for 225-270 for it to take.
> 
> Of course it will have to take some hit right now but will earn much much more for spares, support, MLU etc etc and france will benefit in terms of weapons for 225 -270 instead of just for 36 now this could happen by MMRCA or by Su30 MKI like deal.
> 
> Biggest - BJP will avoid a major controversy
> 
> *Scenario 2*
> Dasault does not play ball on MMRCA price and stick to asking upward revision in price then in such a case we will still buy 36 at higher prices BUT
> if Modi govt went for Su30MKi like deal with incremantal orders at different price points which will effectively mean that Modi govt is willingly giving price hike to Dassault when the tender a route to get low priced rafale is till alive it will invite a major controversy & corruption allegations & scandal allegations - which it seems inclined to avoid . (read Subramanium Swamy and PILs)
> 
> so in such a case - MMRCA & SU30MKI like deal both gets ruled out
> so in such a scenario we still purchase 36 rafale at higher prices and keep the french govt happy - Dassault is too happy at they are going to supply 36 at higher prices but they can effectively forget the rest of the 126+63+45 rafle M
> with 36 Iaf gets a breather till 2020
> 
> modi govt avoids a major controvery & gets time till 2017 to work out the options so effectively 36 is what we are buying with higher prices and thats it no more second lot of 36 or 24 & MMRCA is History._
> 
> *Thus its a potential 225-270 birds order versus just 36 with MMRCA cancellation.
> *
> @halloweene @Abingdonboy @sancho @SuperSubrayan @MilSpec @jarves @SpArK @Capt.Popeye @Gabriel92 :
> 
> What you all feel with this logic? i feel Eric Trappier is at crossroads with the toughest decision of his lifetime.. I mean who would not want a order of 225-270 birds and claim Rafale as one of the most successful 4.5+G bird or focus on just profits and be happy with 36 Indian order and try harder at Qatar/Malaysia (say another 24-36 each)..
> 
> 
> SIDE NOTE: Why are some journos like Ajai Shukla are reporting that 36 jets is a hogwash and primarily its a quid pro quo for a miniaturized nuke reactor which is for future N Sub program for India? i thot we are already studying Chakra reactor and upgrading to 140+ Mw reactors for future subs.. is the areva -L&T deal just for name?



I will not comment on Ajai Shukla, my views on him is quite clear. Most of what he writes is a hogwash.


few points on the business case:
Profit margin on a 36 aircrafts cannot exceed the one on 109 or 129 or 200 aircrafts.

ToT transfers building are essentially the most profitable ventures, where HAL builds the aircraft and pay's a substantial percentage to dassualt, for rosoboron-irkut MKI production line is a goldmine. With close to zero input, there is no resource loading, no operating expense, capital expense projects are paid by HAL/MoD, it is essentially a financial controllers wet dream.

The issue on MMRCA is not the unit price but the critical technology transfer and deflated operating costs submitted by MMRCA, for which dassualt cannot be penalized. It was MoDs' error of the evaluating operating costs on what each individual firm had submitted.

During evaluations, IAF-MOD evaluated without bringing i HAL which would be the end-integrator and has the longest experience in ToT projects, now MMRCA half baked process is hitting roadblocks because of MoD's botched oversight.

HAL had long ago evaluated M2K production and suggested against it because of ridiculous prices submitted by Dassault Breguet at that time, so for me it was already surprising Rafale coming on top.

Going forward:
HAL and Dassault will come to equitable terms in manufacturing and initiate MMRCA. I had long ago predicted for Dassault to justify the business case for the amount of lost revenue, the fly away numbers have to be twice of what stated in MMRCA and this is exactly what it is.

Because increasing fly away units in MMRCA was out of the scope of the contract, additional flyway units were included in this separate contract, which will now facilitate the MMRCA context.

Brilliant move by the MoD and the new government.

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## Su-11

Ammyy said:


> Are you out of your mind .... MF congressi/Antony did not conclude this deal from 2007, why? Just to show themselves clean. IAF dying for new aircrafts. This government did right thing on right time. Meanwhile MMRCA contract will be signed.


Anthony did not conclude this deal because they wanted to remove the corruption from this corruption infested defence sector. So removing corruption becomes his fault? What a crazy world we are living in where wrongs are the right.
God knows how much the BJP scumbags will make out of this deal. This is the same party who's defence minister made money from soldiers coffins. They can go to new lows to fill up their pockets, basstarddds!


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## Ammyy

Su-11 said:


> Anthony did not conclude this deal because they wanted to remove the corruption from this corruption infested defence sector. So removing corruption becomes his fault? What a crazy world we are living in where wrongs are the right.
> God knows how much the BJP scumbags will make out of this deal. This is the same party who's defence minister made money from soldiers coffins. They can go to new lows to fill up their pockets, basstarddds!



I think you are talking about george fernandes.. belongs to JDU.

And really a great way to deal with corruption. just dnt make any decision. Like we say no work no problem 
Even national security at high risk? What a idiot point to prove yourself right.

This is much much required deal and that MF antony did nothing.


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## sathya

Wow 98 pages ? I only took few days off, since my net connection went down

Rafale buy came as a surprise just as Pakistan s f 16 buy from Jordan ..


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## SuperSubrayan

PARIKRAMA said:


> A very good analysis by a fellow poster in a different forum. I am pasting it here for the logical reasoning he had showed about the whole deal. Perhaps reader can comment on after reading on this
> 
> _I think the 36 rafale order is a trap & a message to dasault. I think there are 2 scenarios which can play out here.
> The contentious issues are pricing of the MMRCA (126 + 63 options) + probable 45 rafale m for IN reportedly Dassault is asking for a price hike which we are not willing to pay as it will create a controversy & a scandal. The dassault has increased the quoted price of MMRCA which we are not agreeing to pay, and now we made an offer to buy 36 in G2G contract with better terms than those offered under MMRCA.
> 
> So the focus shifts back to pricing of MMRCA Offer as the pricing for 36 too depends on MMRCA quotes, because the whole game is now dependent upon it
> 
> *Scenario 1 *
> Now suppose dasault plays ball on MMRCA and agrees to original 12-14 billion quote then Dassault gets orders for 36+126+63 options+ probably 45 rafale M for IN = 270 Rafales
> 
> So if Dassault plays ball on MMRCA pricing and agrees to stick to original quote then there is an order for 225-270 for it to take.
> 
> Of course it will have to take some hit right now but will earn much much more for spares, support, MLU etc etc and france will benefit in terms of weapons for 225 -270 instead of just for 36 now this could happen by MMRCA or by Su30 MKI like deal.
> 
> Biggest - BJP will avoid a major controversy
> 
> *Scenario 2*
> Dasault does not play ball on MMRCA price and stick to asking upward revision in price then in such a case we will still buy 36 at higher prices BUT
> if Modi govt went for Su30MKi like deal with incremantal orders at different price points which will effectively mean that Modi govt is willingly giving price hike to Dassault when the tender a route to get low priced rafale is till alive it will invite a major controversy & corruption allegations & scandal allegations - which it seems inclined to avoid . (read Subramanium Swamy and PILs)
> 
> so in such a case - MMRCA & SU30MKI like deal both gets ruled out
> so in such a scenario we still purchase 36 rafale at higher prices and keep the french govt happy - Dassault is too happy at they are going to supply 36 at higher prices but they can effectively forget the rest of the 126+63+45 rafle M
> with 36 Iaf gets a breather till 2020
> 
> modi govt avoids a major controvery & gets time till 2017 to work out the options so effectively 36 is what we are buying with higher prices and thats it no more second lot of 36 or 24 & MMRCA is History._
> 
> *Thus its a potential 225-270 birds order versus just 36 with MMRCA cancellation.
> *
> @halloweene @Abingdonboy @sancho @SuperSubrayan @MilSpec @jarves @SpArK @Capt.Popeye @Gabriel92 :
> 
> What you all feel with this logic? i feel Eric Trappier is at crossroads with the toughest decision of his lifetime.. I mean who would not want a order of 225-270 birds and claim Rafale as one of the most successful 4.5+G bird or focus on just profits and be happy with 36 Indian order and try harder at Qatar/Malaysia (say another 24-36 each)..
> 
> 
> SIDE NOTE: Why are some journos like Ajai Shukla are reporting that 36 jets is a hogwash and primarily its a quid pro quo for a miniaturized nuke reactor which is for future N Sub program for India? i thot we are already studying Chakra reactor and upgrading to 140+ Mw reactors for future subs.. is the areva -L&T deal just for name?



Reasonable . As this order came out of no where . When no one expected PM went for 36 at behest of french pricing which is to be at 4.2 billion usd . Recently defence minister in an interview said this 36 is for urgent requirement . Butnegotiations are still on for producing more at home. But he also said it might rafale or other ( probably Su35S modified 5th gen) As if we might not go for Rafale so we all think. But it's not . These are the tactics used by MP to bring french to their original quotation . If few minor increase in price. So MMRCA will be placed no matter what . This gift won't give a damn about Dr Swami law suit. as they don't have anything to do with the Deal. More over our IAF is the key player here . We already have plans in place with Rafale . Which is Mig 27 replacement. We all forgetting our Navy needs Rafale M for vishal. We don't trust the honey traps like PakFa or F35 . Both are under development . We are not satisfied even with Airforce variant . F35 is a complex deal so we don't have another 10 years to negotiate . 

Either we will go for less numbers for IAF and buy rafale for Navy and Nuclear Task force . Which alone will be about 45+45 + 108 Airforce variant . Excluding this 36. So as of now it's anyone's guess. It's true that Su35S is in advanced stage of finalising the requirements of IAF . since its been in India for 2 years as some source says. And we cannot risk ourself by ignoring Su35 when Chinese getting trained for Su35 in Russia as we speak. What we may say Su35 is superior to MKI for sure . That's some huge investment needed . Most probably for Jags replacement. 

So don't worry Bro . Rafale deal is ON. OP is very right when he says 36 rafale is just a warning. It's true . Once we made our intent clear and once we showed these french that we got money . Negotiations will move in different angle from now. This will push french government who is staving for weapon deals to pressurise OEM to losses a bit for more orders as we promised which is 126(or 108) + 64 + 45/50 rafale M . Who would lose it ? When we are ready to help them with imidiate purchase of 36 . Or lose MMRCA to Russians with more Super Sukois/PakFa and Su35S . We don't have a time to waste .



MilSpec said:


> I will not comment on Ajai Shukla, my views on him is quite clear. Most of what he writes is a hogwash.
> 
> 
> few points on the business case:
> Profit margin on a 36 aircrafts cannot exceed the one on 109 or 129 or 200 aircrafts.
> 
> ToT transfers building are essentially the most profitable ventures, where HAL builds the aircraft and pay's a substantial percentage to dassualt, for rosoboron-irkut MKI production line is a goldmine. With close to zero input, there is no resource loading, no operating expense, capital expense projects are paid by HAL/MoD, it is essentially a financial controllers wet dream.
> 
> The issue on MMRCA is not the unit price but the critical technology transfer and deflated operating costs submitted by MMRCA, for which dassualt cannot be penalized. It was MoDs' error of the evaluating operating costs on what each individual firm had submitted.
> 
> During evaluations, IAF-MOD evaluated without bringing i HAL which would be the end-integrator and has the longest experience in ToT projects, now MMRCA half baked process is hitting roadblocks because of MoD's botched oversight.
> 
> HAL had long ago evaluated M2K production and suggested against it because of ridiculous prices submitted by Dassault Breguet at that time, so for me it was already surprising Rafale coming on top.
> 
> Going forward:
> HAL and Dassault will come to equitable terms in manufacturing and initiate MMRCA. I had long ago predicted for Dassault to justify the business case for the amount of lost revenue, the fly away numbers have to be twice of what stated in MMRCA and this is exactly what it is.
> 
> Because increasing fly away units in MMRCA was out of the scope of the contract, additional flyway units were included in this separate contract, which will now facilitate the MMRCA context.
> 
> Brilliant move by the MoD and the new government.


Bhai as you said operational cost is a problem at some extent .And that's why now we want french to compensate on original price . So both will have good deal to cherish. Buy transfer of technology French will won't be left out of the picture . Through out the life cycle in some way or the other we will give business to them. It's a good deal for both . Who will but Rafale at this kind of numbers ? Even french them self ordered for some 190 rafale and till 2010 100 inducted . They need heavy funding to continue with current order for then and for development of this fighter with new features . India can offer then a cushion which they badly needed. 

But my guts says MMRCA will cost 20-22 billion including all weapons and infrastructure cost . And I guess we will go for it no matter what. Like ordering second batch of 36 jets we still can negotiate for better deal . But it won't take too long to come to an conclusion. With 64 new rafale IAF will be happy to live with it and go for Su35S and PakFa . We jays need 8-10 years of time frame to get our AMCA/LCA MK2 flying . So 64 Rafale + Upgraded Mirage 2kI will be good enough for MMRCA.  Along with LCA 1 and Super Sukois we will be in safe place to negotiate. As we don't have to agree for everything they say. 

But it's a done deal ! All things will fall in place with giving in here and there by both sides. And this is how modi works. Give some and get some policy .

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> What you all feel with this logic? i feel Eric Trappier is at crossroads with the toughest decision of his lifetime.. I mean who would not want a order of 225-270 birds and claim Rafale as one of the most successful 4.5+G bird or focus on just profits and be happy with 36 Indian order



There are several flaws, for example the fact that there is no order for 36 Rafales so far! All the PM did, was to give "a letter of intent" to buy 36 fighters in flyaway condition and the most important part is, that it's not a deal with Dassault, but the French Government, because it's about buying fighters produced for French forces, at reduced cost, than what Dassault would ask.

The next issue are the figures, the option of 63 is not a requirement issued by IAF, but just a standard clause by MoD implemented in the Defence Procurement Procedure, which requires the option of 50% of the deal at the same condition. So if we want 126 fighters, 63 will be the option, if we buy 6 x C130Js, 3 will be the option and if we buy 20 more Hawks, 10 will be the option...

The figure for naval fighters are even more bogus, since there is no requirement or tender yet and as long as the catapult issue is not cleared, we don't even know what restriction will come with it. Remember, the navy wanted Rafale for a long time, but ended up with Mig 29K and N-LCA, because the ealier was a fixed procurement along with the carrier, the latter the only option to improve indigenous naval fighter R&D. Similarly, US fighters might come with catapults and the only way to get indigenous figher R&D to the next level is to navalise FGFA or AMCA, which once again puts a block to naval Rafales (apart from shortcomings of the fighter itself).

And as I said in the Rafale thread, the biggest problem for additional fighters, is the fact that the MMRCA deal is still not signed! The more it will be delayed, the later the IAF will get the 108 fighters from HAL (2025 possibly), so any follow order, would directly compete with FGFA or even AMCA orders. It's simply not the same case as it was for the MKI, which came in a time where we had just that 1 option for new fighters (LCA delayed, MRCA re-issued to MMRCA) and the only other fighter in production was the Jaguar. By 2025, IAF has plenty of options for manned fighters and drones, to cover operational roles and numbers more effectively and that, will set the limit for Rafales now.

The potential for 200+ fighters was there in 2012, after the selection of Rafale and with IAF aiming on a fast conclusion of the deal, not to mention IN evaluating a follow order for Mig 29Ks and N-LCA only in it's concept stages. All that Dassault had to do back than, was to fix offsets and ToT in a fast manner, DON'T create delays by deviating from RFP requirements and prove that the Rafale M can be operated on STOBAR carriers. But they didn't and now the requirement till 2025 is more or less covered and anything beyond that in IAF or IN, might be a generation ahead of the Rafale.

Another major flaw is, that the main issue is not the cost, but Dassault not agreeing to the terms required by the MoD and IAF! So the cost negotiations has no relation with the intend to by 36 flyaway and even if they had a relation, the DM Parrikar had opened that option in Dec / Jan, when he negotiated with the French exactly about these RFP terms (we buy an additional squadron from you, if you comply and provide the performance guarantee for the full licence production and not only the first 18). THAT was the time, where such a move could had made an impact in negotiations, while it now adds mainly to a PR hype during a foreign visit of the PM.

So until there is an agreement with Dassault on the pending contractual matters, it doesn't matter if it's 18 or 36 in flyaway condition, nor what the potential order for Rafale was / could be. For the last 3 years we are stuck with Dassault and this distraction doesn't solve any of the issues.



Taygibay said:


> As for the Indian 36 ones, Namo signed for ACs to the MMRCA standard



Neither did he signed anything yet, nor are they to MMRCA standard, since they are produced to French Forces standards, which means current F3+ without IRST, HMS and just the current Damocles LDP. So, these 2 squads will be below MMRCA standard, similar to the Su30Ks that also wasn't up to the MKI level IAF wanted.

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## cerberus

sancho said:


> There are several flaws, for example the fact that there is no order for 36 Rafales so far! All the PM did, was to give "a letter of intent" to buy 36 fighters in flyaway condition and the most important part is, that it's not a deal with Dassault, but the French Government, because it's about buying fighters produced for French forces, at reduced cost, than what Dassault would ask.
> 
> The next issue are the figures, the option of 63 is not a requirement issued by IAF, but just a standard clause by MoD implemented in the Defence Procurement Procedure, which requires the option of 50% of the deal at the same condition. So if we want 126 fighters, 63 will be the option, if we buy 6 x C130Js, 3 will be the option and if we buy 20 more Hawks, 10 will be the option...
> 
> The figure for naval fighters are even more bogus, since there is no requirement or tender yet and as long as the catapult issue is not cleared, we don't even know what restriction will come with it. Remember, the navy wanted Rafale for a long time, but ended up with Mig 29K and N-LCA, because the ealier was a fixed procurement along with the carrier, the latter the only option to improve indigenous naval fighter R&D. Similarly, US fighters might come with catapults and the only way to get indigenous figher R&D to the next level is to navalise FGFA or AMCA, which once again puts a block to naval Rafales (apart from shortcomings of the fighter itself).
> 
> And as I said in the Rafale thread, the biggest problem for additional fighters, is the fact that the MMRCA deal is still not signed! The more it will be delayed, the later the IAF will get the 108 fighters from HAL (2025 possibly), so any follow order, would directly compete with FGFA or even AMCA orders. It's simply not the same case as it was for the MKI, which came in a time where we had just that 1 option for new fighters (LCA delayed, MRCA re-issued to MMRCA) and the only other fighter in production was the Jaguar. By 2025, IAF has plenty of options for manned fighters and drones, to cover operational roles and numbers more effectively and that, will set the limit for Rafales now.
> 
> The potential for 200+ fighters was there in 2012, after the selection of Rafale and with IAF aiming on a fast conclusion of the deal, not to mention IN evaluating a follow order for Mig 29Ks and N-LCA only in it's concept stages. All that Dassault had to do back than, was to fix offsets and ToT in a fast manner, DON'T create delays by deviating from RFP requirements and prove that the Rafale M can be operated on STOBAR carriers. But they didn't and now the requirement till 2025 is more or less covered and anything beyond that in IAF or IN, might be a generation ahead of the Rafale.
> 
> Another major flaw is, that the main issue is not the cost, but Dassault not agreeing to the terms required by the MoD and IAF! So the cost negotiations has no relation with the intend to by 36 flyaway and even if they had a relation, the DM Parrikar had opened that option in Dec / Jan, when he negotiated with the French exactly about these RFP terms (we buy an additional squadron from you, if you comply and provide the performance guarantee for the full licence production and not only the first 18). THAT was the time, where such a move could had made an impact in negotiations, while it now adds mainly to a PR hype during a foreign visit of the PM.
> 
> So until there is an agreement with Dassault on the pending contractual matters, it doesn't matter if it's 18 or 36 in flyaway condition, nor what the potential order for Rafale was / could be. For the last 3 years we are stuck with Dassault and this distraction doesn't solve any of the issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither did he signed anything yet, nor are they to MMRCA standard, since they are produced to French Forces standards, which means current F3+ without IRST, HMS and just the current Damocles LDP. So, these 2 squads will be below MMRCA standard, similar to the Su30Ks that also wasn't up to the MKI level IAF wanted.


Source of your Claim


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## sancho

cerberus said:


> Source of your Claim


Of what?


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## Indo-guy

cerberus said:


> Source of your Claim



what source do you need ?

it's just the logical analysis based on the hard facts that we have today ...


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## cerberus

sancho said:


> Of what?


Of what you said details of the separate contract is still not out yet 

Yesterday in a interview with PTI

FM clearly mentioned that 36 planes will be built according to Indian standards And will be delivered to India in 2 years if deal is sealed 

Whatever you mentioned about do you have source or details of your claims or you are Comprising your technical knowledge As Known Critic of The Current Nda GOI

Ps:No offence


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## cerberus

India to wait another two years for French Rafale jets, says Manohar Parrikar


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## sancho

cerberus said:


> FM clearly mentioned that 36 planes will be built according to Indian standards



Which is wrong, since the PM did not ordered them from Dassault, but asked the French President to provide them from their orders as the PM himself said! So these 36 are already produced or under production and that according to French standards!
Only new orders that we sign with Dassault can be build according to our requirements and standards, that's why signing the MMRCA contract is the key, not this side issue.


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## cerberus

sancho said:


> Which is wrong, since the PM did not ordered them from Dassault, but asked the French President to provide them from their orders as the PM himself said! So these 36 are already produced or under production and that according to French standards!
> Only new orders that we sign with Dassault can be build according to our requirements and standards, that's why signing the MMRCA contract is the key, not this side issue.


You made the assumptions based on IANS
Rafale jet fighters: Why Dassault deal is not simply a win-lose situation for India - The Economic Times



The government has already announced the two new squadrons would be inducted into the IAF in two years. The India-France joint statement said the order for the 36 jets would be "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway"

How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it’s a winner - The Economic Times

@sancho So basically deal will Done better than with Dassault aviation


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## sancho

cerberus said:


> You made the assumptions based on IANS
> Rafale jet fighters: Why Dassault deal is not simply a win-lose situation for India - The Economic Times
> 
> 
> 
> The government has already announced the two new squadrons would be inducted into the IAF in two years. The India-France joint statement said the order for the 36 jets would be "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway"
> 
> 
> How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it’s a winner - The Economic Times
> 
> @sancho So basically deal will Done better than with Dassault aviation



Which again is wrong, since the DM only stated that they will be available within 2 years, but that depends on when the deal is signed and how many fighters the French government can provide. Check the Rafale thread, I already showed that the French order for 2015 till the end of 2017 is not sufficient to provide us 36 fighters as well as the fighters to Egypt, which also will at least partially diverted from French orders.
And the part about the "terms" being better, is aimed to the costs, since the French government can sell them at lower costs, than newly ordered Rafale from Dassault. They however can't provide a technically more capable Rafale, than what they have ordered and produced. IRST is not in production anymore and actually is dependent on the ToT package of the MMRCA ti start production again. HMS is not integrated yet and again, might only come as an add on, after the MMRCA is signed and depending on which helmet will be integrated. But both are not required from French forces, therefor are not part of the Rafale they can provide to other countries.

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## Indo-guy

cerberus said:


> You made the assumptions based on IANS
> Rafale jet fighters: Why Dassault deal is not simply a win-lose situation for India - The Economic Times
> 
> 
> 
> The government has already announced the two new squadrons would be inducted into the IAF in two years. The India-France joint statement said the order for the 36 jets would be "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway"
> 
> How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it’s a winner - The Economic Times
> 
> @sancho So basically deal will Done better than with Dassault aviation



Sorry for just nosing in ...

But if MMRCA is not signed then why should Dassault take trouble of churning out Rafales with Indian specifications if there is no propsect of bigger order ?

How easy is it for dassault to accomodate India specific Rafale version ?

It would have been better if MMRCA would have been signed before making separate order ...

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## cerberus

sancho said:


> Which again is wrong, since the DM only stated that they will be available within 2 years, but that depends on when the deal is signed and how many fighters the French government can provide. Check the Rafale thread, I already showed that the French order for 2015 till the end of 2017 is not sufficient to provide us 36 fighters as well as the fighters to Egypt, which also will at least partially diverted from French orders.
> And the part about the "terms" being better, is aimed to the costs, since the French government can sell them at lower costs, than newly ordered Rafale from Dassault. They however can't provide a technically more capable Rafale, than what they have ordered and produced. IRST is not in production anymore and actually is dependent on the ToT package of the MMRCA ti start production again. HMS is not integrated yet and again, might only come as an add on, after the MMRCA is signed and depending on which helmet will be integrated. But both are not required from French forces, therefor are not part of the Rafale they can provide to other countries.


Well let wait and watch 
Until deal will be signed 

Unless official details of the deal will be out which only happens when deal is will be signed. We should wait by them 
Since its very hyped saga we can't trust even journous 

This MMRCA saga is very complicated and with new twist it's added it one step further.


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## sancho

Indo-guy said:


> It would have been better if MMRCA would have been signed before making separate order ...



Exactly, because the seperate order has no relevance if the MMRCA is not fixed, neither for the required numbers, nor for the required technical standards, the ToT or offset packages that we demanded. The whole point of the competition was, to get as much industrial benefits out of the deal as possible and a side deal with French government for their fighters doesn't provide that.


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## cerberus

sancho said:


> Exactly, because the seperate order has no relevance if the MMRCA is not fixed, neither for the required numbers, nor for the required technical standards, the ToT or offset packages that we demanded. The whole point of the competition was, to get as much industrial benefits out of the deal as possible and a side deal with French government for their fighters doesn't provide that.


You said technical standard 
Execept IRST and HMS what else will be difference 

The options can be available for HMS what else will be its short comings ???


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## Muhammad Omar

How many Rafales is India Buying exactly..?? there is a NEWS of 36 and title says 60-63 ??? any confirm news?? 

Not a troll


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## cerberus

Muhammad Omar said:


> How many Rafales is India Buying exactly..?? there is a NEWS of 36 and title says 60-63 ??? any confirm news??
> 
> Not a troll


As of now 36 by GtoG mode in separate contract. 
Which can be integrated span 2 to 3 year's 

Rest MMRCA saga continues

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## Muhammad Omar

cerberus said:


> As of now 36 by GtoG mode in separate contract.
> Which can be integrated span 2 to 3 year's
> 
> Rest MMRCA saga continues



Ok Thanks


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## cerberus

Indo-guy said:


> Sorry for just nosing in ...
> 
> But if MMRCA is not signed then why should Dassault take trouble of churning out Rafales with Indian specifications if there is no propsect of bigger order ?
> 
> How easy is it for dassault to accomodate India specific Rafale version ?
> 
> It would have been better if MMRCA would have been signed before making separate order ...


Don't ask me Dm is stated it in his statement to PTI
" While the order is meant to be delivered as soon as possible, terms and conditions of the deal - estimated at about $4.25 billion - have yet to be worked out, the minister said.
"It may take two to two-and-a-half years to get the first plane," Parrikar told reporters. "Fly-away means not tomorrow, it has to be designed as per India's need, plus there is a requirement of working out the price."

India to wait another two years for French Rafale jets, says Manohar Parrikar


Now im In puzzle whom to believe DM
Or Sancho 
Although Sancho is technically right


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## sancho

cerberus said:


> You said technical standard
> Execept IRST and HMS what else will be difference
> 
> The options can be available for HMS what else will be its short comings ???



IRST and HMS were base requirement of the MMRCA competition, but you can also take the Mirage upgrade as a hint to what IAF might go for on the Rafale. Litening targeting pods, which are far more capable than the current Damocles pod and offer commonality throughout the whole IAF and IN fleet. SPICE PGM kits, which IAF integrates to the M2K to replace older French bomb kits and that surely will find it's way to the Rafale too. Halloween said, that SATCOM is under integration now, possibly for the Indian order, not to mention that Indian forces don't use NATO com and data links, so these have to be custom made too. 

IAF and IN have opted on the Topsight helmet for M2K and Mig 29s, via Samtel, the French forces prefered a helmet of Sagem initially and again according to halloweene Thales might aim to integrate the latest Scorpion helmet.


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## cerberus

sancho said:


> IRST and HMS were base requirement of the MMRCA competition, but you can also take the Mirage upgrade as a hint to what IAF might go for on the Rafale. Litening targeting pods, which are far more capable than the current Damocles pod and offer commonality throughout the whole IAF and IN fleet. SPICE PGM kits, which IAF integrates to the M2K to replace older French bomb kits and that surely will find it's way to the Rafale too. Halloween said, that SATCOM is under integration now, possibly for the Indian order, not to mention that Indian forces don't use NATO com and data links, so these have to be custom made too.
> 
> IAF and IN have opted on the Topsight helmet for M2K and Mig 29s, via Samtel, the French forces prefered a helmet of Sagem initially and again according to halloweene Thales might aim to integrate the latest Scorpion helmet.


Hmm what about AESA it first aircraft with operationally available to IAF

Although meteor is not coming with this Tranche. MICA will be the main BVR then that too sad point


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## sancho

cerberus said:


> Now im In puzzle whom to believe DM
> Or Sancho



Neither him nor me! Get as much infos from as many sources and get to you own conclusions. You won't find it that difficult to find official sources that Dassault produces 11 fighters a year and that they need 3 years to build a Rafale. Or that the F3+ was meant to be produced only till the end of 2017, followed by the new F3R standard. Check that and you know, that the DM's statement doesn't hold it's own without some changes (increased production rate or including fighters that will be produced in 2018).



cerberus said:


> Hmm what about AESA it first aircraft with operationally available to IAF
> 
> Although meteor is not coming with this Tranche. MICA will be the main BVR then that too sad point



Yes AESA will be available, but honestly not a game changer when you have the BARS radar in huge numbers in the fleet too. It's more modern tech wise than the PESA, but that's it. The lack of METEOR is just a short term problem and the MICA IR + SPECTRA / FSO combo is imo equally important, but we need HMS and IRST to get the most of the Rafale.

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## cerberus

sancho said:


> Neither him nor me! Get as much infos from as many sources and get to you own conclusions. You won't find it that difficult to find official sources that Dassault produces 11 fighters a year and that they need 3 years to build a Rafale. Or that the F3+ was meant to be produced only till the end of 2017, followed by the new F3R standard. Check that and you know, that the DM's statement doesn't hold it's own without some changes (increased production rate or including fighters that will be produced in 2018).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes AESA will be available, but honestly not a game changer when you have the BARS radar in huge numbers in the fleet too. It's more modern tech wise than the PESA, but that's it. The lack of METEOR is just a short term problem and the MICA IR + SPECTRA / FSO combo is imo equally important, but we need HMS and IRST to get the most of the Rafale.


Thanks for the guidance


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## Riaz Hussain

Lol i wouldnt hold my breath. By the time these fighters arrive after Indian negotiations, the world will be flying 6th generation fighters.


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## Speeder 2

Indians say that India will buy (...) . The final prices are still to be negotiated, just like the good 'n old time...

100 pages!


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## PARIKRAMA

cerberus said:


> Thanks for the guidance



@sancho 



Pasting info posted by Olybrius in a seperate forum which is what Snacho had also posted in Main Rafale thread for easier understanding

*** Only 4 aircrafts are planned for the french military in 2016 and none the following years:






Recettes exceptionnelles et exportation du Rafale : des paris à 10 milliards pour boucler le budget

Taking into account deliveries to Egypt (According to Air&cosmos)
2015: 6
2016: 5
2017: 5
2018: 5
2019: 3

In theory, 6 Rafale/year would be available for India from 2016 + n additionnal Rafale each year due to increased production.

2016 - 6
2017 - 6
thus 12 meaning 24 left
Unless Dassault produces additional 12 birds with increased productivity or may be more production they wont be able to meet the 2017 timeline

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## Malik Alashter

Chinese-Dragon said:


> If they are all built in France, what happens to the ToT?


Do you have a fighter that can match the Rafale?.

This is not a troll as I don't respect trolling just to know thanks.


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## RISING SUN

45'22' said:


> Arihant is already completed and we are doing fine with the 83MW pressurized reactor.....even we are making an 125MW reactor AFAIK .....
> I don't know what you said is true or just speculation
> 
> On Rafale......I think since its a G2G deal we can make certain changes.......if what you said is true then we will hear something about the 2 deals together.....if they keep it separate then it's as good as scrapped


FYI Arihant reactor working at 70 mw steam power is really fantastic against 85 mw steam power of Nerpa. Nerpa is 8000 ton while Arihant is 6000 ton only. Do your math and see what you find out. Thank you.

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## PARIKRAMA

RISING SUN said:


> FYI Arihant reactor working at 70 mw steam power is really fantastic against 85 mw steam power of Nerpa. Nerpa is 8000 ton while Arihant is 6000 ton only. Do your math and see what you find out. Thank you.




Nerpa 85? I thot its 190..
Yes it is 190 Mw
The reconditioned Russian leased Chakra with 190MW nuclear power plant............
..:: India Strategic ::. Navy: Indian Navy inducts n-powered attack submarine INS Chakra

Steam turbine is 43000 hp of course

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## Skull and Bones

And we were missing you too, @RiazHaq

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## anant_s

Skull and Bones said:


> And we were missing you too, @RiazHaq


Don't tempt, some musing might be on their way!


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## Odysseus

@cerberus, @sancho 
This report clearly states that the Rafales are going to be in par with the Indian standard and will be delivered with in the stipulated schedule. 

*Hollande to hold high-level meeting today over Rafale jets sale to India.*

Paris/New Delhi: French President Francois Hollande would chair a high-level meeting in Paris on Monday to thrash out the finer details of the nearly $5 billion deal for the sale of 36 Rafale jets to India in flyaway conditions.French sources said the meeting at the Elysee Palace would be held between Hollande, his top officials and executives from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of the Rafale jets.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who concluded his four-day visit to France on Sunday, had asked the country to supply 36 Rafale jets in flyaway conditions as soon as possible in view of the critical operational necessity of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The deal would be between the two governments."There was nobody, either from Indian side or the French side, when the two leaders spoke about the Rafale. Everyone would be briefed in detail on Monday about what transpired and discussions would be held on how it can be taken forward," sources said.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said that the 36 Rafale fighter jets would be inducted into the IAF in two years. Sources said that two years is a fair time as a final contract needs to be negotiated and signed while production of planes will also take time.The capacity of the Dassault plant is 36 aircraft per anum and the Indian version of the aircraft will have to be fine-tuned as per its requirement."

The French already have an order from Egypt for 24 Rafale jets which has to be also delivered as soon as possible" sources said, pointing out that specific timelines will have to be worked out.

One of the options that is being looked at is putting on hold the order for the French military and diverting them to meet India's immediate requirements.

Another issue that will come up for discussion is the pricing and also if the French government will be providing a tax holiday or some other concession to Dassault to bring down the prices of the aircraft for India.Modi and Hollande had agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway, which is the MMRCA tender.

The delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF and the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France, a joint statement had said.

The general belief in France is that the order for 36 aircraft is different from the MMRCA tender for 126 aircraft which they believe will continue to be negotiated. It is not yet clear if the 36 jets are in addition to the MMRCA deal or whether it would be adjusted within the framework of the ongoing talks.Under the original deal, 18 were to be bought off the shelf while 108 were to be manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The talks have been stuck over pricing and Dassault's refusal to stand guarantee for the jets to be manufactured by HAL.While initially the MMRCA contract was valued at about $10 billion, it has now shot over $20 billion.

The Request for Information for a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft was issued in 2001 and a Request for Proposal was issued in 2007. Rafale was shortlisted in 2012.Officials from the Indian Defence Ministry as well as the IAF could not elaborate much about the deal for 36 Rafale jets saying it is being worked out by the Prime Minister's Office. While the 36 Rafale jets would be a shot in the arm of the IAF, it will not be able to counter the dwindling air power of the force.While the sanctioned strength of the IAF is 42 Squadrons, it is currently equipped with only 34.Adding to the trouble is the phasing out of the ageing MiG 21s and MiG 27s in the coming years. Their draw-down is scheduled to start in 2017 but sources indicated that it might be extended for another year."There is a serious problem as new planes need to be inducted to make up for the phasing out. Then new planes are also needed to boost up our strength to the desired levels," Defence sources in New Delhi said.TAP

Parrikar had said that the deal struck with France for purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets will bring some "oxygen" to the IAF.IAF has been banking on the Rafale, the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft -- Dhruv, and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft deal with Russia, all the three of which are running behind schedule.

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## Skull and Bones

anant_s said:


> Don't tempt, some musing might be on their way!



I'd love to chew on some Mushings, his heartburn after the successful Mars mission still puts a smile on my face.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Malik Alashter said:


> Do you have a fighter that can match the Rafale?.
> 
> This is not a troll as I don't respect trolling just to know thanks.



Well here is what the Russian ambassador in New Delhi said:

Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russian Envoy - NDTV

Rafale can be shot down like 'mosquitoes by Chinese-made Sukhoi': Russian envoy - AniNews.in

Granted, the Russian ambassador has reasons to say this, however the answer is yes we do have plenty of answers to the Rafale or any other plane that can be sent against us. And we have significant numbers of 4th generation fighters, far more than India has.

Not mentioning the J-20 or J-31 since those are 5th generation platforms.

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## Skull and Bones

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well here is what the Russian ambassador in New Delhi said:
> 
> Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russian Envoy - NDTV
> 
> Rafale can be shot down like 'mosquitoes by Chinese-made Sukhoi': Russian envoy , AniNews.in
> 
> Granted, the Russian ambassador has reasons to say this, however the answer is yes we do have plenty of answers to the Rafale or any other plane that can be sent against us. And we have significant numbers of 4th generation fighters, far more than India has.
> 
> Not mentioning the J-20 or J-31 since those are 5th generation platforms.



Indian Su-30MKIs are equally capable as our Chinese counterparts, if not more. Don't you think IAF may have equated the apparent advantage of Rafales over the Sukhois in the evaluation stage, in a possible confrontation?


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## Armstrong

@Gabriel92 - Can you be a good chap and place a tracker on each of these Rafales so that wherever they are....we know about that and we can shoot them down !

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## Chinese-Dragon

Skull and Bones said:


> Indian Su-30MKIs are equally capable as our Chinese counterparts, if not more. Don't you think IAF may have equated the apparent advantage of Rafales over the Sukhois in the evaluation stage, in a possible confrontation?



Wasn't a big point of the MMRCA to reduce dependency on Russian imports?

That's one of the main reasons why Russian planes weren't chosen, despite being arguably much more cost-efficient.


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## Skull and Bones

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wasn't a big point of the MMRCA to reduce dependency on Russian imports?
> 
> That's the big reason why Russian planes weren't chosen, despite being arguably much more cost-efficient.



Russian planes comes with their own shortfall, MKIs have an availability rate of 55-60%, it would be much lower if Chinese are using their own engines. Rafale exceeds 80% availability rate, and that can be a crucial factor in a time of crisis. On top of that, no official claim stated that IAF is looking to diversify their portfolio, or they wouldn't have invited Mig-35 in the competition. It's all media statements. Mig-35 was discarded because it failed on few crucial parameters, and it's low powered engine. 

Even Egypt discarded Mig-35s after evaluation, and went for Rafale. What does that tell you?


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## cerberus

Riaz Hussain said:


> Lol i wouldnt hold my breath. By the time these fighters arrive after Indian negotiations, the world will be flying 6th generation fighters.


Lol due know what gto g transaction is

It will come on 2 years as quoted by DM himself.


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## Skull and Bones

Armstrong said:


> @Gabriel92 - Can you be a good chap and place a tracker on each of these Rafales so that wherever they are....we know about that and we can shoot them down !



How you suppose to pay the French for this benevolent gesture?

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## Armstrong

Skull and Bones said:


> How you suppose to pay the French for this benevolent gesture?



@Gabriel92 is my Brother - Thats how ! 

Though hes said numerous times that Business is Business !  

Maybe if I threaten to scrap the Eiffel Tower for metal; he'd listen !

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## Malik Alashter

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well here is what the Russian ambassador in New Delhi said:
> 
> Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russian Envoy - NDTV
> 
> Rafale can be shot down like 'mosquitoes by Chinese-made Sukhoi': Russian envoy - AniNews.in
> 
> Granted, the Russian ambassador has reasons to say this, however the answer is yes we do have plenty of answers to the Rafale or any other plane that can be sent against us. And we have significant numbers of 4th generation fighters, far more than India has.
> 
> Not mentioning the J-20 or J-31 since those are 5th generation platforms.


Is it the J-10B or the J-11 is the equevelent to the Rafale I read some where Chinese thinks j-10B as good as the Rafale is that right.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Skull and Bones said:


> Russian planes comes with their own shortfall, MKIs have an availability rate of 55-60%, it would be much lower if Chinese are using their own engines. Rafale exceeds 80% availability rate, and that can be a crucial factor in a time of crisis. On top of that, no official claim stated that IAF is looking to diversify their portfolio, or they wouldn't have invited Mig-35 in the competition. It's all media statements. Mig-35 was discarded because it failed on few crucial parameters, and it's low powered engine.
> 
> Even Egypt discarded Mig-35s after evaluation, and went for Rafale. What does that tell you?



From what I've read, India doesn't want to be too reliant on Russian imports (due in part to previous massive price hikes and other concerns), or the Eurofighter which is manufactured by a consortium of European nations, any one of which could end up having political problems with India (i.e. Italy) and thus be a political constraint.

America would have similar problems (though even France cancelled the Mistral contract with Russia due to American pressure).

So politics definitely plays a part.

See when Turkey chose the Chinese SAM system over all the NATO systems (even though Turkey hates us due to Uyghur issues). Politics, etc.

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## RiazHaq

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wasn't a big point of the MMRCA to reduce dependency on Russian imports?
> 
> That's one of the main reasons why Russian planes weren't chosen, despite being arguably much more cost-efficient.



If the IAF can't maintain the Russian Sukhois, it'll have an even harder time keeping Rafales operational. That's why it's being rejected by many nations. Why Rafale is a Big Mistake -The New Indian Express


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## SamantK

Chinese-Dragon said:


> From what I've read, India doesn't want to be too reliant on Russian imports (due in part to previous massive price hikes), or the Eurofighter which is manufactured by a consortium of European nations, any one of which could end up having political problems with India (i.e. Italy) and thus be a political constraint.
> 
> America would have similar problems (though even France cancelled the Mistral contract with Russia due to American pressure).
> 
> So politics definitely plays a part.
> 
> See when Turkey chose the Chinese SAM system over all the NATO systems (even though Turkey hates us due to Uyghur issues). Politics, etc.


The geopolitical implications was the one thing which IAF wanted to be kept out of the MMRCA and even St Anthony gave in to this demand. 

Your argument only hinges on to that fact.

The Swiss AF also evaluate Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale and gave the same assessment that Rafale stood on top even when it was without HMS

Please see the page 1 and 2 both summarise the Rafale on top. 

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/...85d4f4ee253e53=0&bcsi_scan_filename=12332.pdf



RiazHaq said:


> If the IAF can't maintain the Russian Sukhois, it'll have an even harder time keeping Rafales operational. That's why it's being rejected by many nations. Why Rafale is a Big Mistake -The New Indian Express


Bharat Karnad 
He writes bullshit and all the defence experts which I have read discredit him.

IAF is maintaining Mirages so well that they kicked Pakistani arse in the Kargil war, so please buzz off

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## ares

RiazHaq said:


> If the IAF can't maintain the Russian Sukhois, it'll have an even harder time keeping Rafales operational. That's why it's being rejected by many nations. Why Rafale is a Big Mistake -The New Indian Express



IAF maintains French Mirages and British Jaguars just fine.


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## kaykay

RiazHaq said:


> If the IAF can't maintain the Russian Sukhois, it'll have an even harder time keeping Rafales operational. That's why it's being rejected by many nations. Why Rafale is a Big Mistake -The New Indian Express


LOLs so IAF couldn't maintain MKIs still they went for 130 more of them from 140 to 270? Dont make fool of your self. IAF was extremely happy with MKIs and Mirages and so will be with Rafale.


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## Tshering22

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wasn't a big point of the MMRCA to reduce dependency on Russian imports?
> 
> That's one of the main reasons why Russian planes weren't chosen, despite being arguably much more cost-efficient.



Yes you are right. 

We could have simply ordered additions 270+ MKIs. It would have made HAL comfortable, pilots relaxed and even Russians happier than ever because MKIs are something everyone in IAF and HAL know about.

Rafale was needed as a replacement and complement to Mirages as well as not keeping all eggs in one basket. 

By ordering a larger lot directly, we have come to re-negotiate the terms of contract by increasing the order, therefore pressing France to agree with TOT in a separate contract. Considering that India and Egypt are the only countries ordering them, the focus to supply us better would be high.

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## RiazHaq

SamantK said:


> The geopolitical implications was the one thing which IAF wanted to be kept out of the MMRCA and even St Anthony gave in to this demand.
> 
> Your argument only hinges on to that fact.
> 
> The Swiss AF also evaluate Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale and gave the same assessment that Rafale stood on top even when it was without HMS
> 
> Please see the page 1 and 2 both summarise the Rafale on top.
> 
> http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/...85d4f4ee253e53=0&bcsi_scan_filename=12332.pdf
> 
> 
> Bharat Karnad
> He writes bullshit and all the defence experts which I have read discredit him.
> 
> IAF is maintaining Mirages so well that they kicked Pakistani arse in the Kargil war, so please buzz off



Nonsense!! There was no air war in Kargil. And India suffered massive casualties at the hands of a few LET fighters with light arms. Here's how Japanese journalist Yoichi Shimatsu of Japan Times saw it: "In an attack on the strategic town of Kargil in late spring 1999, Lashkar broke through India’s alpine defense line and came close to forcing New Delhi to the negotiating table"....." Along the sawtooth LoC, Lashkar is respected by professional soldiers on both side. A Pakistani hero who fought on the Baltistan heights, Corporal Ahmed, told me of his admiration for the stoicism of these jihadis, who wore sandals to battle in the snow. At a checkpoint in Indian-controlled Kargil, an army captain wearing a Sikh turban said frankly that nobody in the Indian Army could fight man-to-man against Lashkar." Haq's Musings: Solving the Mumbai Attacks Puzzle



kaykay said:


> LOLs so IAF couldn't maintain MKIs still they went for 130 more of them from 140 to 270? Dont make fool of your self. IAF was extremely happy with MKIs and Mirages and so will be with Rafale.



30% of them are down at any given time. The entire fleet has been grounded several times; India plays safe, grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet


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## SamantK

RiazHaq said:


> Nonsense!! There was no air war in Kargil. And India suffered massive casualties at the hands of a few LET fighters with light arms. Here's how Japanese journalist Yoichi Shimatsu of Japan Times saw it: "In an attack on the strategic town of Kargil in late spring 1999, Lashkar broke through India’s alpine defense line and came close to forcing New Delhi to the negotiating table" Haq's Musings: Solving the Mumbai Attacks Puzzle
> 
> 
> 
> 30% of them are down at any given time. The entire fleet has been grounded several times; India plays safe, grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet






Few LeT fighters which were owned by your Army  

There goes your article down the drain. 

30% su-30 MKI down with serviceability of 50-55% is impressive, we have covered 20-25% of the gap

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## Chanakya's_Chant

RiazHaq said:


> Nonsense!! There was no air war in Kargil. And India suffered massive casualties at the hands of a few LET fighters with light arms. Here's how Japanese journalist Yoichi Shimatsu of Japan Times saw it: "In an attack on the strategic town of Kargil in late spring 1999, Lashkar broke through India’s alpine defense line and came close to forcing New Delhi to the negotiating table" Haq's Musings: Solving the Mumbai Attacks Puzzle



So those 453 soldiers and officers of Pakistani Army who were killed during the conflict were also a part of the terrorist outfit LeT? What a disgrace to equate them with terrorists. 

Pakistan lists Kargil war dead - The Hindu

It took you 11 odd years to accept that those slaughtered on the Kargil heights were your soldiers - let alone those whose dead bodies you refused to accept - what a shame! 

Rediff On The NeT: Pakistan refuses to take even officers' bodies

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## RiazHaq

SamantK said:


> Few LeT fighters which were owned by your Army
> 
> There goes your article down the drain.
> 
> 30% su-30 MKI down with serviceability of 50-55% is impressive, we have covered 20-25% of the gap



How would Rafale or any other modern fighter help India Air Force pilots who are fratricidal...unable to distinguish between friend and foe, according to USAF officer at Redflag 

The IAF has problems with its Russian jet engines
Indian pilots were prone to fratricide – shooting down friendly aircraft
The IAF required 60-second intervals between takeoffs, compared with half that for other air forces
The American F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI, the most advanced fighter in the Su-30 series
IAF not keen on 1 vs 1 dogfights with the USAF.


Dissecting a dogfight: Sukhoi vs USAF at Red Flag 2008 | Russia & India Report


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## kaykay

RiazHaq said:


> Nonsense!! There was no air war in Kargil. And India suffered massive casualties at the hands of a few LET fighters with light arms. Here's how Japanese journalist Yoichi Shimatsu of Japan Times saw it: "In an attack on the strategic town of Kargil in late spring 1999, Lashkar broke through India’s alpine defense line and came close to forcing New Delhi to the negotiating table"....." Along the sawtooth LoC, Lashkar is respected by professional soldiers on both side. A Pakistani hero who fought on the Baltistan heights, Corporal Ahmed, told me of his admiration for the stoicism of these jihadis, who wore sandals to battle in the snow. At a checkpoint in Indian-controlled Kargil, an army captain wearing a Sikh turban said frankly that nobody in the Indian Army could fight man-to-man against Lashkar." Haq's Musings: Solving the Mumbai Attacks Puzzle
> 
> 
> 
> 30% of them are down at any given time. The entire fleet has been grounded several times; India plays safe, grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet


Idiot no aircraft has 100% availability. And MKOs were grounded just once in their 15 year service life. And F-16s, F-15s, F-22s almost all of them have been grounded number of times but only idiots will underestimate them.

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## SamantK

RiazHaq said:


> How would Rafale or any other modern fighter help India Air Force pilots who are fratricidal...unable to distinguish between friend and foe, according to USAF officer at Redflag
> 
> The IAF has problems with its Russian jet engines
> Indian pilots were prone to fratricide – shooting down friendly aircraft
> The IAF required 60-second intervals between takeoffs, compared with half that for other air forces
> The American F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI, the most advanced fighter in the Su-30 series
> IAF not keen on 1 vs 1 dogfights with the USAF.
> 
> 
> Dissecting a dogfight: Sukhoi vs USAF at Red Flag 2008 | Russia & India Report



If you had enough sense, then you should have followed the discussion on that at least on PDF and of all the things stop shifting the goalpost. 

But hey, I am wasting no more time on you, shoo...


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## MilSpec

RiazHaq said:


> How would Rafale or any other modern fighter help India Air Force pilots who are fratricidal...unable to distinguish between friend and foe, according to USAF officer at Redflag
> 
> The IAF has problems with its Russian jet engines
> Indian pilots were prone to fratricide – shooting down friendly aircraft
> The IAF required 60-second intervals between takeoffs, compared with half that for other air forces
> The American F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI, the most advanced fighter in the Su-30 series
> IAF not keen on 1 vs 1 dogfights with the USAF.
> 
> 
> Dissecting a dogfight: Sukhoi vs USAF at Red Flag 2008 | Russia & India Report


Stick to sanitation thread....play to your strengths....

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## kaykay

RiazHaq said:


> How would Rafale or any other modern fighter help India Air Force pilots who are fratricidal...unable to distinguish between friend and foe, according to USAF officer at Redflag
> 
> The IAF has problems with its Russian jet engines
> Indian pilots were prone to fratricide – shooting down friendly aircraft
> The IAF required 60-second intervals between takeoffs, compared with half that for other air forces
> The American F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI, the most advanced fighter in the Su-30 series
> IAF not keen on 1 vs 1 dogfights with the USAF.
> 
> 
> Dissecting a dogfight: Sukhoi vs USAF at Red Flag 2008 | Russia & India Report


Last time I checked a Pakistani pilot shot down F-16 in real life during Soviet war in Afghanistan. Much for your rant. lols

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## RiazHaq

SamantK said:


> If you had enough sense, then you should have followed the discussion on that at least on PDF and of all the things stop shifting the goalpost.
> 
> But hey, I am wasting no more time on you, shoo...



It's obvious that you can't handle either one.


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## kaykay

BTW It was PAF F-16.


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## RiazHaq

kaykay said:


> Last time I checked a Pakistani pilot shot down F-16 in real life during Soviet war in Afghanistan. Much for your rant. lols



Don;t believe your Indian media reports...they have no credibility.


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## kaykay

RiazHaq said:


> Don;t believe your Indian media reports...they have no credibility.


LOLs just check your previous posts, you yourself are posting Indian sources. hahaha what a facepalm moment for you or you are just not bright enough. hahahaha

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## Chanakya's_Chant

RiazHaq said:


> The American F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI, the most advanced fighter in the Su-30 series



During Cope India 2004 IAF's MiG-21 Bisons defeated USAF's F-15Cs more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF. Kill Ratio of 9:1.

The Aviationist » Cope India: when India’s Russian jets achieved a surprising 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. F-15s


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## mad_max

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> During Cope India 2004 IAF's MiG-21 Bisons defeated USAF's F-15Cs more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF. Kill Ratio of 9:1.



Oh common that exercise was highly biased one where USAF was flying with lot of handicaps see quote from article you had posted

*engagements typically involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with no chance to simulate any beyond visual range (BVR) missile shot (due to the Indian request of not using the AMRAAM).*

So before making tall claims read the whole thing


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## wiseone2

Srinivas said:


> "Make in India" should be the prime motto of Modi in France
> 
> Buying 60 fighter jets manufactured in France is not an issue, But Indian Aero space Industry needs technological edge, for that a partnership with Dassault is a good move, I hope the remaining Rafales will be manufactured here in India.



it does not look like Dassault is interested in the partnership


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## Capt.Popeye

RiazHaq said:


> Nonsense!! There was no air war in Kargil. And India suffered massive casualties at the hands of a few LET fighters with light arms. Here's how Japanese journalist Yoichi Shimatsu of Japan Times saw it: "In an attack on the strategic town of Kargil in late spring 1999, Lashkar broke through India’s alpine defense line and came close to forcing New Delhi to the negotiating table"....." Along the sawtooth LoC, Lashkar is respected by professional soldiers on both side. A Pakistani hero who fought on the Baltistan heights, Corporal Ahmed, told me of his admiration for the stoicism of these jihadis, who wore sandals to battle in the snow. At a checkpoint in Indian-controlled Kargil, an army captain wearing a Sikh turban said frankly that nobody in the Indian Army could fight man-to-man against Lashkar." Haq's Musings: Solving the Mumbai Attacks Puzzle
> 
> 
> 
> 30% of them are down at any given time. The entire fleet has been grounded several times; India plays safe, grounds entire Sukhoi-30 fleet




Hey man, from writing about Toilets; you have shifted to Military matters? Another of you A-musings, _hain_?
Stick to what you are familiar with; just don't make a spectacle of yourself here, Riaz.


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## sathya

mad_max said:


> Oh common that exercise was highly biased one where USAF was flying with lot of handicaps see quote from article you had posted
> 
> *engagements typically involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with no chance to simulate any beyond visual range (BVR) missile shot (due to the Indian request of not using the AMRAAM).*
> 
> So before making tall claims read the whole thing




actually debate went on that USA wanted such a result so that F 35 can be pushed through..
each aircraft has its own strengths & weakness..

...................................

todays meeting in france may shed little more info regarding this '36" deal


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## Taygibay

@Gabriel92 @Armstrong @cerberus
UPDATE 5-India orders 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets - PM Modi| Reuters
Above is standard press; below is the kind of documents I for one rely on.


_"The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than *conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway*; the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF; and that *the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force* ..."_

quote from : India-France Joint Statement during the visit of Prime Minister to France (April 9-11, 2015)

Now having again attracted trolls and liars, I'm, as is my habit, leaving this thread.
May the Indians that understand their government's official statements as more valid than journos delirium explain the matter to the rest and best of luck with that.

Good day to those that earned it, Tay.

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## cerberus

mad_max said:


> Oh common that exercise was highly biased one where USAF was flying with lot of handicaps see quote from article you had posted
> 
> *engagements typically involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with no chance to simulate any beyond visual range (BVR) missile shot (due to the Indian request of not using the AMRAAM).*
> 
> So before making tall claims read the whole thing


Biased my *** don't cherry pick lines from the article 

It proposed training which was designed for WVR

Even Indians have used there su-30Mk which less advanced to MkI lacks many features like Irst & HmS etc

Article clearly state Low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate, acceleration and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles were among the factors that made the upgraded MiG-21 a deadly adversary for the U.S. F-15s.


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## cerberus

Cope India 2005 saw the U.S. Air Force deploy several F-16s that operated also mixed up with IAF Su-30MKIs (and not only against them). Nevertheless the results of the drills were much similar to those of the previous year, with Indian pilots able to win most of the engagements.

As reported by Scott Baldauf for CSMonitor, the same opinion is shared by Vinod Patney, retired Indian Air Force Marshal, and former vice chief of staff who said that the skills of IAF pilots combined with those possessed by Indian ground crews have been the real game changer during the several Cope India exercise editions since “..We’re not talking about a single aircraft. We’re talking about the overall infrastructure, the command and control systems, the radar on the ground and in the air, the technical crew on the ground, and how do you maximize that infrastructure. This is where the learning curve takes place.”

So, provided that the it went exactly as reported, was poor training the reason of the bad results achieved by US aircrews during Cope India exercises? Did the U.S. underestimate the IAF before the first simulated dogfights?

You only excuse was sighted was not proposed use AMRAAM.
Well know what is killing propibility is still Unproven

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## Chanakya's_Chant

mad_max said:


> Oh common that exercise was highly biased one where USAF was flying with lot of handicaps see quote from article you had posted
> 
> *engagements typically involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with no chance to simulate any beyond visual range (BVR) missile shot (due to the Indian request of not using the AMRAAM).*
> 
> So before making tall claims read the whole thing



As if the third generation MiG-21 Bisons were supposed to carry them! MiG's are not BVR capable let alone having an "option" to use them against the fourth generation F-15C's. In fact AIM-120 AMRAAM missile and AESA radars would have made little difference in BVR - as new jamming technologies (like DFRM) degrade or negate most of these (radio EM-spectrum) AIM-120 class capabilities - regardless. In one sense: active-homing (fire-and-forget) BVR class weapons have become increasingly ‘easier’ to elude - using DRFM-class deception techniques. Indeed this might be what effectively occurred during 'Red Flag' 2008. The American military always fight its wars over hostile airspace: so USAF-to-IAF numbers/odds/environment is 150% applicable.

American officials credited Indian pilots with being:

*"very proficient in [their] aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,"*

_*"The adversaries are better than we thought,"* _Col. Mike Snodgrass added_.*” And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated."*_

_*"The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MiG-27 and MiG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia."*_

When questioned on the capabilities of IAF pilots, Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader made the following remarks:
_
*“What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world.”*

*“I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.”*

*“The greatest compliment we heard from an IAF pilot – You American pilots are just like us, simply down to earth people.”*_

So before denying facts just beacuase they don't please your ego - maybe you should read the whole thing as well?

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## sathya

SajeevJino said:


> *If my estimations were Correct, India would get first two Rafales before the end of this Year*



we know you have OCD with rafales  , but how did you estimate that we will get 2 Rafales before the end of this year?


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## mad_max

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> As if the third generation MiG-21 Bisons were supposed to carry them! MiG's are not BVR capable let alone having an "option" to use them against the fourth generation F-15C's. In fact AIM-120 AMRAAM missile and AESA radars would have made little difference in BVR - as new jamming technologies (like DFRM) degrade or negate most of these (radio EM-spectrum) AIM-120 class capabilities - regardless. In one sense: active-homing (fire-and-forget) BVR class weapons have become increasingly ‘easier’ to elude - using DRFM-class deception techniques. Indeed this might be what effectively occurred during 'Red Flag' 2008. The American military always fight its wars over hostile airspace: so USAF-to-IAF numbers/odds/environment is 150% applicable.
> 
> American officials credited Indian pilots with being:
> 
> *"very proficient in [their] aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,"*
> 
> _*"The adversaries are better than we thought,"* _Col. Mike Snodgrass added_.*” And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated."*_
> 
> _*"The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MiG-27 and MiG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia."*_
> 
> When questioned on the capabilities of IAF pilots, Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader made the following remarks:
> _
> *“What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world.”*
> 
> *“I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.”*
> 
> *“The greatest compliment we heard from an IAF pilot – You American pilots are just like us, simply down to earth people.”*_
> 
> So before denying facts just beacuase they don't please your ego - maybe you should read the whole thing as well?


You can rant and day dream what ever you want , but IAF is plagued heavily by all Russian junk who pose mantainence nightmares and are less in capabilities then western counterparts.


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## cerberus

mad_max said:


> You can rant and day dream what ever you want , but IAF is plagued heavily by all Russian junk who pose mantainence nightmares and are less in capabilities then western counterparts.


@MilSpec this guy need a reality Check


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## SamantK

mad_max said:


> You can rant and day dream what ever you want , but IAF is plagued heavily by all Russian junk who pose mantainence nightmares and are less in capabilities then western counterparts.


So the answer to a detailed post is "russian junk" inferior to "western counterparts".. hmm, ok.


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## mad_max

SamantK said:


> So the answer to a detailed post is "russian junk" inferior to "western counterparts".. hmm, ok.


Yes that's the truth and buying rafales in large numbers is only viable option for IAF .
Another decade your famous Su30 will convert into flying coffins list like Mig21/27 that's what Russian junk do.

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## Joseph Goebbels

mad_max said:


> Yes that's the truth and buying rafales in large numbers is only viable options for IAF .


your right sir but not fully 

the best thing for IAF is get those 36 rafles pretty fast and in the mean time get the LCA MK2 ready on fast track basis and that too in equal numbers as rafale if not more


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## mad_max

badnam hazza miskin said:


> your right sir but not fully
> 
> the best thing for IAF is get those 36 rafles pretty fast and in the mean time get the LCA MK2 ready on fast track basis and that too in equal numbers as rafale if not more


LCA is a point defense light fighter /trainer at best it cannot win wars for you ever , with 7 hard points , 3500 kg payload , 50 km radar , 300 km CR its not of much use in attacking roles.

I have same opinion about JF 17 hope with Amca india does better for now concentrate on rafales purchases in big numbers and increasing maintainability and quality of su 30


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## Joseph Goebbels

mad_max said:


> LCA is a point defense light fighter /trainer at best it cannot win wars for you ever , with 7 hard points , 3500 kg payload , 50 km radar , 300 km CR its not of much use in attacking roles.


50 km radar now thats a new one


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## SamantK

mad_max said:


> Yes that's the truth and buying rafales in large numbers is only viable option for IAF .
> Another decade your famous Su30 will convert into flying coffins list like Mig21/27 that's what Russian junk do.


Ok, if you say so. 

I have no doubt in the capability of the western equipment but never underestimate others too.


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## Chanakya's_Chant

mad_max said:


> You can rant and day dream what ever you want , but IAF is plagued heavily by all Russian junk who pose mantainence nightmares and are less in capabilities then western counterparts.



Don't flip the topic when you can't keep up the argument - Who the hell claimed IAF to be superior to USAF? Yes it's a fact the IAF's squadron strength is in a alarming state and that's why the purchase of 36 MMRCA's is being made. It was about Cope India and the views expressed were of USAF's NOT that of IAF's. It were the American Generals who went on to publicize the exercise and demand the Pentagon accordingly -

Results of air exercise with India a "wake-up call" for US air force: general
USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For Changes In Training - Vayu Sena


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## mad_max

badnam hazza miskin said:


> 50 km radar now thats a new one


Not my fault if you are ignorant current radar range is 45 km to be increased to 80 km after changing to quartz radome , even 80 is somewhat inferior in current era


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## Ind4Ever

mad_max said:


> Yes that's the truth and buying rafales in large numbers is only viable option for IAF .
> Another decade your famous Su30 will convert into flying coffins list like Mig21/27 that's what Russian junk do.



Mr.Mad Moron You won't have anything closer to MKI in million years . This is not like your Burrrr uAV or your super joint fighter with just 15 years of official lifespan . This is Super fighter and king of Air superiority. Yes true when jets get old it will be obsolete . But it's will take more than 20 years for that to happen with IAF . And since we will keep upgrading it to Super Sukoi u can just wait with u r last wish for Sukoi to dance around your heads lol



mad_ma post: 7042127 said:


> Not my fault if you are ignorant current radar range is 45 km to be increased to 80 km after changing to quartz radome , even 80 is somewhat inferior in current era



Yes true ...


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## mad_max

Ind4Ever said:


> Mr.Mad Moron You won't have anything closer to MKI in million years . This is not like your Burrrr uAV or your super joint fighter with just 15 years of official lifespan . This is Super fighter and king of Air superiority. Yes true when jets get old it will be obsolete . But it's will take more than 20 years for that to happen with IAF . And since we will keep upgrading it to Super Sukoi u can just wait with u r last wish for Sukoi to dance around your heads lol
> 
> 
> 
> Yes true ...


 dance around my head , are u sure puny Indian you wont have anything close to f22/f35/predator drones in next 5 decades


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## Ind4Ever

mad_max said:


> dance around my head , are u sure puny Indian you wont have anything close to f22/f35/predator drones in next 5 decades


What is this new form for comedy terrorism ? 
..... 

Bhuahahaha Bhuahahaha  

Naaaiceeee


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## Chanakya's_Chant

mad_max said:


> dance around my head , are u sure puny Indian you wont have anything close to f22/f35/predator drones in next 5 decades



Aren't you an Indian-American? (most probably a Gujarati if I can make it out).  
Tu toh bhai hai hamara!  

Sorry if any of my posts have offended you.


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## mad_max

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Aren't you an Indian-American? (most probably a Gujarati if I can make it out).
> Tu toh bhai hai hamara!
> 
> Sorry if any of my posts have offended you.


I am american citizen and yes my parents were indian

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## Chanakya's_Chant

mad_max said:


> I am american citizen and yes my parents were indian



So a second generation Indian American? Just out of curiosity - what do second generation make out of India? India in the eyes of Indian-Americans...


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## mad_max

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> So a second generation Indian American? Just out of curiosity - what do second generation make out of India? India in the eyes of Indian-Americans...


depends on community to community but yes most keep ties with india

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## Joseph Goebbels

mad_max said:


> Not my fault if you are ignorant current radar range is 45 km to be increased to 80 km after changing to quartz radome , even 80 is somewhat inferior in current era


but the thing is LCA MK 2 which i was talking about LCA MK 1is just a show peice 

LCA MK2 will be a game changer already most of the work is done on it and it will come with an indian made AESA "uttam" and as MMRCA deal just might get underway it will bring dividents for MK2 aswell


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## mad_max

badnam hazza miskin said:


> but the thing is LCA MK 2 which i was talking about LCA MK 1is just a show peice
> 
> LCA MK2 will be a game changer already most of the work is done on it and it will come with an indian made AESA "uttam" and as MMRCA deal just might get underway it will bring dividents for MK2 aswell


And where is it now , on paper ?


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## Joseph Goebbels

mad_max said:


> I am american citizen and yes my parents were indian


so your one of the so called "ABCD" right !



mad_max said:


> And where is it now , on paper ?


no in early stages of prototype manufacturing


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## mad_max

badnam hazza miskin said:


> so your one of the so called "ABCD" right !


I am not aware of what you are trying to say here.


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## SamantK

Damn!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587593647773757440

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587594090360897536

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587594726842347520

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587595177738403840

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587595624536649728

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587595938635481091
@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Bang Galore

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## SajeevJino

sathya said:


> we know you have OCD with rafales  , but how did you estimate that we will get 2 Rafales before the end of this year?



Like how Egypt will receive Two Rafale before the end of this year.!!

and I think They signed the deal, But no , French DM will come India later to seal the deal, so we don't know how much time would it take 

So this 2 Raffy this year would be my wet dream

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## mad_max

SamantK said:


> Damn!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587593647773757440
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587594090360897536
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587594726842347520
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587595177738403840
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587595624536649728
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587595938635481091
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Bang Galore



Tight slap on face of fanboys of this govt , they are proving to be worst then previous one.

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## SamantK

LIVEFIST: It's Final: #MMRCA Dead, Rafales Coming

*Monday, April 13, 2015*



After a decade of speculation, intrigue, a generous measure of behind-the-scenes drama, finally some ironic clarity on the 'mother of all deals', India's massive combat jet acquisition effort, the M-MRCA. After committing to purchase 36 flyaway Rafales from Dassault last week, the Indian government today made it supremely clear that the M-MRCA process is effectively dead after careening earthward in a death spiral for over three years.

In a series of tweets today, MoD spokesperson Sitanshu Kar quoted Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on the MMRCA:




Posted by Shiv Aroor at 6:17 PM Categorised under: AIR FORCE , Aircraft And Helicopters , DEFENCE PROCUREMENTS ,Government-Policy-Politics , M-MRCA Competition


Post a Comment


Older PostHome

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## PARIKRAMA

Sitanshu Kar @SpokespersonMoD · 27m27 minutes ago
#MMRCA A car can not run on two paths simultaneoulsy: Defence Minister @manoharparrikar talking about the status of the existing RfP.

New Delhi, Delhi


Sitanshu Kar @SpokespersonMoD · 37m37 minutes ago
#MMRCA Negotiation under the existing RfP had 'gone into a loop with no solution in sight': Defence Minister @manoharparrikar


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## SamantK

mad_max said:


> Tight slap on face of fanboys of this govt , they are proving to be worst then previous one.


No, it looks like the right decision.. Almost all defense experts were very concerened with the pace of negotiations and the deadlocks seems to have remained.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 35m35 minutes ago
3/n #36Rafale@manoharparrikar: HAL's manpower reqt ratio of 2.7:1 (visavis OEM) high,driving up costs Details on Make in India in 2 months


So our HAL is inefficient and bcz of that cost is high??

*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 1m1 minute ago
#36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France: MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36

Either this is a pressure tactic as details in 2 months indicate or the rumored Su35Stealth version is a reality or perhaps PAKFA procurement quickly upfront like MKI..


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## Bhoot Pishach

MMRCA Tender "Gone with the Wind" !!!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587593647773757440

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587594090360897536


----------



## Pichkari

mad_max said:


> Tight slap on face of fanboys of this govt , they are proving to be worst then previous one.



Actually this isn't that bad.Being Indecisive is the worst form of governance.

Have said it so may times that instead of spending 20 billion on TOT ,better to spend that moolah on indigenous production and research.
IMO Acquire 36 more rafales in a few years and be done with it.

TOT and make in india will only make sense if a private player is roped in with dassault.
Only so much can be expected from HAL.l


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## Bhoot Pishach

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587603496792272897
NO MORE THEN 36 RAFALES!!!


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## Pichkari

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 35m35 minutes ago
> 3/n #36Rafale@manoharparrikar: HAL's manpower reqt ratio of 2.7:1 (visavis OEM) high,driving up costs Details on Make in India in 2 months
> 
> 
> So our HAL is inefficient and bcz of that cost is high??
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 1m1 minute ago
> #36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France: MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36
> 
> Either this is a pressure tactic as details in 2 months indicate or the rumored Su35Stealth version is a reality or perhaps PAKFA procurement quickly upfront like MKI..



No we Will go for more rafales but not 126.
This opportunity should be utilized to rope in a private player,give some competition to HAL.


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## uparyupari

Now Dr. Subramanian Swamy's statements begin to make sense  

He was batting for Modi's decision to scrap the deal.  ........... that wily old fox. As usual, he always gets the last laugh.

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## Bhoot Pishach

Pichkari said:


> No we Will go for more rafales but not 126.
> This opportunity should be utilized to rope in a private player,give some competition to HAL.



THIS EXPLAINS EVERY THING. NO FURTHER PURCHASE OR "MAKE IN INDIA".

#36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France: MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36

— Vishal Thapar (@thaparvishal) April 13, 2015


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## uparyupari

Pichkari said:


> No we Will go for more rafales but not 126.
> This opportunity should be utilized to rope in a private player,give some competition to HAL.



This is an opportunity for both Eurofighter and Rafale to make a pitch of "make in India", select their own partners and make a direct pitch to MoD and GoI 

The offer with the maximum offset and lowest price gets the new deal

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## The_Sidewinder

@Ind4Ever MMRCA scrapped buddy....


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## PARIKRAMA

As i wrote in the main sticky thread i think make in india is coming with Dassault partnering Reliance which will be the second line of production for Dassault outside france.

Or else its gonna be AMCA project in a big way plus PAKFA MKI route

But @Ind4Ever you have said that Su35 Stealth version is rumoured to be testing for last 2 years in India. Can you throw more light on the Su35 Stealth. How is it versus the normal Su35.. Anything substantial ? even if its more of heresay its surprising that the Su35S signage was perhaps kept secret for such a long time..Also Su35 means more russian planes.. i thot IAF was and is against that.. Hope you can quench our thirst for answers..

As i wrote in the main sticky thread i think make in india is coming with Dassault partnering Reliance which will be the second line of production for Dassault outside france.

Or else its gonna be AMCA project in a big way plus PAKFA MKI route

But @Ind4Ever you have said that Su35 Stealth version is rumoured to be testing for last 2 years in India. Can you throw more light on the Su35 Stealth. How is it versus the normal Su35.. Anything substantial ? even if its more of heresay its surprising that the Su35S signage was perhaps kept secret for such a long time..Also Su35 means more russian planes.. i thot IAF was and is against that.. Hope you can quench our thirst for answers..

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Well, Well, Well .... Thats Why Gujaratis are so good at doing business.

Hats off ! Killed Many Bird in a Single Stone !

If MMRCA is scrapped (good riddance!) and instead a pitch for Make In India is Made then,
1. On the Quality and timely delivery assurance the Manufacturer can be held liable. (HAL ka Patta cut, Stupid Folks at HAL can now go and fly a kite.)

2. And Nitin Gokahle was not joking when He tweeted that the entire Dassault Production line can be shifted to India. He might have got some hints.

3. Here the only Looser will be HAL, "HAL is a Looser ... Tall Claims ... Deliverable Zilch !"


IAF won't be complaining if it is going to get the planes either Imported or Made in India or Made by HAL or Made by XYZ.

I am Happy .... I want the Damn Planes .... I don't care how they come. Rest leave it to the Gujarati business acumen, it will deliver and it will deliver good and timely.

Welcome Rafale ! Welcome to IAF ! Welcome to India !

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## RiazHaq

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> During Cope India 2004 IAF's MiG-21 Bisons defeated USAF's F-15Cs more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF. Kill Ratio of 9:1.
> 
> The Aviationist » Cope India: when India’s Russian jets achieved a surprising 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. F-15s



I's an Indian media boast about some fixed fights in Gwalior India...not credible. Red Flag results are far more credible. 

Speaking about the encounter between the Su-30MKI and the F-15Cs, Fornof said: “The (IAF pilots) were amazed, matter of fact they were floored to the point after the first three days, they didn't want any more 1 vs 1 stuff. Let’s move on to something else (_laughs_). Funny ’cause in India, they wanted only 1 to 1 – ’cause they were winning at that.”

About the engines, he said: “Firstly, the Tumansky engines are very susceptible to FOD (foreign object damage). Now the reason that’s a big deal is because they asked for a one-minute spacing between take offs. At Red Flag with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off, if you have one person who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft... yeah.... right, they can go find some other place to fly.”

And he added: “They were very concerned about FOD and how Russian engines are not nearly as reliable as American (ones).”

Dissecting a dogfight: Sukhoi vs USAF at Red Flag 2008 | Russia & India Report


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Well, Well, Well .... Thats Why Gujaratis are so good at doing business.
> 
> Hats off ! Killed Many Bird in a Single Stone !
> 
> If MMRCA is scrapped (good riddance!) and instead a pitch for Make In India is Made then,
> 1. On the Quality and timely delivery assurance the Manufacturer can be held liable. (HAL ka Patta cut, Stupid Folks at HAL can now go and fly a kite.)
> 
> 2. And Nitin Gokahle was not joking when He tweeted that the entire Dassault Production line can be shifted to India. He might have got some hints.
> 
> 3. Here the only Looser will be HAL, "HAL is a Looser ... Tall Claims ... Deliverable Zilch !"
> 
> 
> IAF won't be complaining if it is going to get the planes either Imported or Made in India or Made by HAL or Made by XYZ.
> 
> I am Happy .... I want the Damn Planes .... I don't care how they come. Rest leave it to the Gujarati business acumen, it will deliver and it will deliver good and timely.
> 
> Welcome Rafale ! Welcome to IAF ! Welcome to India !



If HAL cannot make it cheaply with all the existing Experience Infrastructure and Manpower in place, are you nuts Reliance with "Zero" Experience in Precision Engineering forget about experience in Aviation Engineering, will be able to produce "CHEAPER AND BATTER" then HAL??

Same is true with all the Private Players.

Some are having experience of making some parts NOTHING MORE!!!

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## Donatello

Well, is this part of Modi's 'Make in France' plan?


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## SamantK

It looks like the cost escalation was from HAL side, Paarikar says India needs 2.7 times the manpower to produce a single Rafale.

Even the follow on orders can go the make in India route but the deal will be GtoG



Donatello said:


> Well, is this part of Modi's 'Make in France' plan?


It's called the smarter choice when the deal was not going anywhere, India needed these birds yesterday.

Paarikar gave an interview just now on DD news channel.


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## sathya

Donatello said:


> Well, is this part of Modi's 'Make in France' plan?



yep, so that there is enough budget left for other projects


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## Chanakya's_Chant

RiazHaq said:


> I's an Indian media boast about some fixed fights in Gwalior India...not credible. Red Flag results are far more credible.



The Aviationist is an Italian aviation blog and the article was written by an Italian Dario Leone. Where did you find that Indian connection? Don't embarrass yourself old man! 

After the Cope India 2004, American officials credited Indian pilots with being:

*"very proficient in [their] aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,"*

_*"The adversaries are better than we thought,"* _Col. Mike Snodgrass added_.*” And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated."*_

_*"The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MiG-27 and MiG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia."*_

When questioned on the capabilities of IAF pilots, Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader made the following remarks:
_
*“What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world.”*

*“I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.”*

*“The greatest compliment we heard from an IAF pilot – You American pilots are just like us, simply down to earth people.”*_

The views expressed were of USAF's NOT that of IAF's. It were the Americans who went on to publicize the exercise not the Indians -

The US Air Force got a "wake-up call" in air-to-air training exercises with India earlier this year that showed the United States can no longer take air superiority for granted in a conflict, a top US general said Wednesday.


> *Results of air exercise with India a "wake-up call" for US air force: general*_WASHINGTON (AFP) Jun 23, 2004_
> 
> *The US Air Force got a "wake-up call" in air-to-air training exercises with India earlier this year that showed the United States can no longer take air superiority for granted in a conflict, a top US general said Wednesday.*
> 
> A study of the "Cope India" air exercise, conducted by the US and Indian air forces in Gwalior, India last February, is secret, said General Hal Hornburg, head of the air force's Air Combat Command.
> 
> *"But we have to learn a lot of things from that,"* he told defense reporters here.* "We have to learn if we want air superiority it doesn't come cheap and it's not automatic."*
> 
> The Russian-made SU-30s are reported to have bested the F-15s in a majority of their engagements, much to the surprise of the organizers.
> 
> It was the first time the two top-of-the-line US and Russian-made fighters have flown against each other in an exercise, an air force spokeswoman said.
> 
> It pitted F-15Cs from the air force's 3rd Wing out of Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska against a variety of Indian fighters, not just the SU-30s. They included Russian-built MiG-21s, MiG-29s and French-made Mirage 2000s.
> 
> Although the US fighters flew with certain restrictions that handicapped their effectiveness, the performance of the Indian fighters exceeded expectations.
> 
> *"In general, we may have learned some things that suggest we may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we once thought we were,"* Hornburg said.
> 
> He said the results of the exercise showed the need for the F/A-22 Raptor and the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Both aircraft are stealthier than the F-15, but the F/A-18 also has greater range and speed than the air force's existing fighters.
> 
> The air force has been battling the perception that the costly new fighters are a luxury at a time when the United States has dominance in the air.
> 
> *"I thought it was a wake-up call for some things that we've been talking about before, and it provided validation," *Hornburg said.
> 
> The trade journal Aviation Week and Space Technology reported last month that the exercises showed the SU-30s had a clear advantage over the F-15C in a long-range fight.
> 
> The US and Indian aircraft were seeing each other at the same time with their radars but the SU-30 pilots were able to simulate-fire their Russian-made AA-10 "fire-and-forget" Alamo missiles first, the weekly said.
> 
> Experts say the SU-30 has a more advanced radar than the F-15C.
> 
> Hornburg said the F-15Cs that took part in "Cope India" were not equipped with the latest US active electronically scanned array radar.
> 
> "We are going to put new radars, as much as we can afford, in the F-16s and the F-15Es, and my prediction is we will have to do for the F-15C as well in due course," the general said.
> 
> The exercise appears to hold lessons for the air force in east Asia, where China is acquiring SU-27 and SU-30 fighters and AA-12 air-to-air missiles.
> 
> *"I see air forces across the spectrum and across the world becoming better and better as each year passes,"* Hornburg said.
> 
> "China is very formidable. It is a huge, collossal nation, and they are very technologically adept. Do I worry about the Chinese? I would say I worry about anyone who could be a possible threat, to include them and many others," he said.


Results of air exercise with India a "wake-up call" for US air force: general



> *USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For F/A-22, Changes In Training*
> © Inside The Air Force
> 
> By Hampton Stephens
> 
> [June 4, 2004]
> 
> A recent exercise with the Indian Air Force is causing U.S. Air Force officials to re-evaluate the way the service trains its fighter pilots while bolstering the case for buying the F/A-22 as a way to ensure continued air dominance for the United States, according to service officials.
> 
> *The surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots demonstrated at the Cope India air combat exercise Feb. 15 through 27 at Gwalior Air Force Station, India, should provide a reality check for those who had assumed unquestioned U.S. air superiority, service officials who participated in the exercise said this week. The event was the first-ever air combat exercise involving the U.S. and India and the most active bilateral military exchange in over 40 years, according to these officials.*
> 
> *“The major takeaway for the Air Force is that our prediction of needing to replace the F-15 with the F/A-22 is proving out as we get smarter and smarter about other [countries’] capabilities around the world and what technology is limited to in the F-15 airframe,”* said Col. Mike Snodgrass, commander of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, AK. “*We’ve taken [the F-15] about as far as we can and it’s now time to move to the next generation.” *Snodgrass, who has been selected to receive his first star, and two other wing officials spoke with Inside the Air Force June 2.
> 
> The Air Force has been arguing the absolute necessity of the F/A-22 since the program began. But the performance of the Indians in direct competition against the Air Force’s best fighter, the F-15C, was particularly striking evidence of an endangered U.S. lead in air combat capability, the statements of service officials indicate.
> 
> *Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper told the Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee in March that the results of Cope India were “very revealing,” although he declined to elaborate in a public forum. Privately, other senior service officials have pointed to Cope India as evidence that continued U.S. air superiority is dependent on the F/A-22.*
> 
> Although service officials have been reluctant to detail how the Indians performed against the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing that participated in Cope India, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.
> 
> Officials from the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf did not provide specifics about how their aircraft fared, but said the experience is causing the service to reevaluate the way it trains its pilots for air-to-air operations.
> 
> *“What happened to us was it looks like our red air training might not be as good because the adversaries are better than we thought,” Snodgrass said. “And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated.”*
> 
> “Red air” refers to the way the Air Force simulates enemy capability in air combat training. Because the service has assumed for years that its fighters are more capable than enemy aircraft, the U.S. pilots that simulate the enemy, known as “red” forces, in air combat training are required to operate under rules that constrain their combat capability.
> 
> *“We have always believed that our technology was superior to everyone else’s technology, that we would fight a somewhat inferior adversary, so we have had to supply a simulated adversary from our own resources; we call that ‘red air,’” Snodgrass said.*
> 
> As a result, Air Force pilots are used to flying against an enemy whose combat capability is deliberately limited.
> 
> *“There are manoeuvering limits as well as weapons employment limits, what we believe enemy aircraft may be able to do with their weapons systems, so we try to simulate that in our own airplane with our own weapons,” Snodgrass explained. “It becomes very complex because instead of using the airplane the way it was designed, you now have to come up with rules of thumb that limit what you do and cause you to not perform . . . the way we really would want to in combat.”*
> 
> The Cope India exercises consisted of air combat maneuvers in which pilots would practice their fighter tactics and fly against each other one-on-one, as well as simulated combat scenarios. It was during this simulated combat, which included both “offensive counterair” and “defensive counterair” scenarios, that the Indians proved the most formidable, according to the 3rd Wing officials. In the offensive counterair scenarios, a small number of F-15Cs would attempt to intercept an enemy strike aircraft en route to a target that was guarded by a larger number of Indian fighters. In the defensive counterair missions, the F-15s would attempt to defend a target against Indian fighters.
> 
> In these offensive and defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying against 10 or 12 of the same model Indian fighter, according to Col. Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing’s 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India. The 3rd Operations Group is responsible for the 3rd Wing’s flying mission.
> 
> The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MIG-27 and MIG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker, also made in Russia, Neubeck said. He emphasized the fact that U.S. forces were always outnumbered in these scenarios, but said the missions proved more difficult than expected.
> 
> *“What we faced were superior numbers, and an IAF pilot who was very proficient in his aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,” Neubeck said.*
> 
> One reason the Indian pilots proved so formidable is that their training regimen does not include a concept of “red air.” Instead, “they fly pretty much blue-on-blue . . . [a] full-up airplane with no restrictions against somebody else’s airplane with no restrictions, and that leads to more proficiency with your aircraft,” Neubeck said.
> 
> In addition to reinforcing the need for the F/A-22, therefore, Cope India demonstrated that the service might be able to immediately improve its air combat capability by changing the way Air Force pilots train.
> 
> *“The Air Force is re-examining, from what I can understand, our concept of red air and how we might be able to provide red air to our fighter forces so that we get [the best] training we can afford,” Snodgrass said.*
> 
> Neubeck said the service probably needs to “take off the handcuffs that we put on our red air training aids and allow them to be more aggressive and make the red air tougher than we have in the past.”
> 
> Although India is a friendly nation, the lesson of Cope India is that almost any nation could surpass the United States’ air combat capability if the Pentagon does not continue to invest in better training and technology, the Elmendorf officials said. At last count, for example, there were over 5,000 MIG-21s active in air forces around the world, Snodgrass said. Even American fighters, such as Boeing’s F-15, are being sold in upgraded versions to countries around the world.
> 
> “I believe what this demonstrates is that the capacity exists out there for any nation with the appropriate resources and the will to acquire technology and to train their aircrews to be very, very capable,” said Col. Russ Handy, commander of the 3rd Operations Group. “In the long term this could occur in nations outside of the Indian Air Force.”
> 
> The Air Force will get another chance to test its capabilities against the Indians in July, when the IAF will bring its Jaguar fighter-bomber aircraft to Eielson AFB, AK, for the Cooperative Cope Thunder exercise. The 3rd Wing officers said their pilots had not yet flown against an Indian-piloted Jaguar.


USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For Changes In Training - Vayu Sena

Col. Mike Snodgrass commander of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, AK - Col Greg Newbech deputy commander of operations for the wing’s 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India - General Hal Hornburg, head of the air force's Air Combat Command - *The Erstwhile Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper*

- Wonder whether they were from IAF or the USAF? - Neither of my sources are Indian - As a matter of fact this was hardly covered by the Indian Media then - It was widely covered by the Western Media only - a simple Google search will let you know. 

And yeah - do us a favor - stop quoting or giving reference to India Media Reports from you blog - for as you said they aren't "reliable" enough - stop being a bloody hypocrite.


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## Ind4Ever

WTF guys !!! This is what am hearing from my source !!!

54 rafale ... at 7-8 billion dollar in 7 years . NO RFI . No MMRCA

We will have to do with sukois and tejas. 

But this so called defence expert Bharat karnad who thinks Rafale is a bad choice and as per him we should have gone for Su25 Lol MORON ...

WTF guys !!! This is what am hearing from my source !!! 

54 rafale ... at 7-8 billion dollar in 7 years . NO RFI . No MMRCA

We will have to do with sukois and tejas. 

But this so called defence expert Bharat karnad who thinks Rafale is a bad choice and as per him we should have gone for Su25 Lol MORON ... 

Do what's next guys ? 36 +18 more is what we are looking at the .As 18 is said to be under current new deal as a follow on . SO 3 SQ of Rafale . Sources say that ball is in french court now. And I think MMRCA cancelled to bring in Private players if french wants good move 


And as I said Su35S is what we are looking for . Best deal I guess . Jags and Mig27 will be replaced with them . 


Because now we will have more or less same systems on New Su35S and Super Sukois . Not to forget large chunk of PakFa/FgFA will have lots of common parts . Which will make our fleets survivability better than before . 

@The_Side winder no problem Bro we will have 3 Sq of Rafale starting from 2017 . And looks like Tejas getting major push along with AMCA and FGFA . 

Su35S will be a great addition along with Rafale ... IAF gonna be a ripper 

But am disappointed but it's too costly due to poor negotiations done by previous govt .


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## Chanakya's_Chant

Donatello said:


> Well, is this part of Modi's 'Make in France' plan?



No, but these surely are "Make in India" -

The other ToT - India's L&T to Manufacture Heavy Nuclear Forgings for Areva's EPR Nuclear Reactors
#MakeInIndia Airbus Announces $2 Billion Cumulative Outsourcing From India By 2020
Airbus chips in 'Make in India' with largest sourcing deal | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
France to invest 2 billion euros in India - Business Today- Business News


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## Donatello

after 106 pages, various figures for the Rafale are being posted. Can anyone hold their horses and confirm how many are being procured?


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## PARIKRAMA

Ind4Ever said:


> WTF guys !!! This is what am hearing from my source !!!
> 
> 54 rafale ... at 7-8 billion dollar in 7 years . NO RFI . No MMRCA
> 
> We will have to do with sukois and tejas.
> 
> Because now we will have more or less same systems on New Su35S and Super Sukois . Not to forget large chunk of PakFa/FgFA will have lots of common parts . Which will make our fleets survivability better than before .
> 
> @The_Side winder no problem Bro we will have 3 Sq of Rafale starting from 2017 . And looks like Tejas getting major push along with AMCA and FGFA .
> 
> Su35S will be a great addition along with Rafale ... IAF gonna be a ripper
> 
> But am disappointed but it's too costly due to poor negotiations done by previous govt .




But what are the details of Su35S.. Super30 ASQRs were fixed as on 2011 (quoted from Prasun Sengupta's blog). Yet Stealth version there is no details at all.

Moreover if its only 36+18 why bother for this deal also.. better make more of Su35S only then.

Unless make in India Reliance twist is real which a blogger N Gokhle stated that a etire manufacturing line (second line) may be bought for industrial production of Rafale in India


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## kaykay

Donatello said:


> after 106 pages, various figures for the Rafale are being posted. Can anyone hold their horses and confirm how many are being procured?


No one knows to be honest. all that DM confirmed today is that all future Rafale ( apart from first 36) will be through govt to govt deal. He didnt specified any numbers though.

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## Donatello

kaykay said:


> No one knows to be honest. all that DM confirmed today is that all future Rafale ( apart from first 36) will be through govt to govt deal. He didnt specified any numbers though.



So the immediate deal is just a breather for France and India, since Modi was there and they had to offer something. Hmm, interesting.


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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> As i wrote in the main sticky thread i think make in india is coming with Dassault partnering Reliance which will be the second line of production for Dassault outside france.
> 
> Or else its gonna be AMCA project in a big way plus PAKFA MKI route
> 
> But @Ind4Ever you have said that Su35 Stealth version is rumoured to be testing for last 2 years in India. Can you throw more light on the Su35 Stealth. How is it versus the normal Su35.. Anything substantial ? even if its more of heresay its surprising that the Su35S signage was perhaps kept secret for such a long time..Also Su35 means more russian planes.. i thot IAF was and is against that.. Hope you can quench our thirst for answers..
> 
> As i wrote in the main sticky thread i think make in india is coming with Dassault partnering Reliance which will be the second line of production for Dassault outside france.
> 
> Or else its gonna be AMCA project in a big way plus PAKFA MKI route
> 
> But @Ind4Ever you have said that Su35 Stealth version is rumoured to be testing for last 2 years in India. Can you throw more light on the Su35 Stealth. How is it versus the normal Su35.. Anything substantial ? even if its more of heresay its surprising that the Su35S signage was perhaps kept secret for such a long time..Also Su35 means more russian planes.. i thot IAF was and is against that.. Hope you can quench our thirst for answers..



Ya bhai just got the news on MMRCA . And we are going with Su35S I guess . It's been there as a Plan B for very long time . Many times Russian ambassador mentioned about it and hinting on there hope to sell Su35S to the Indian Airforce . Now we can't buy Su35 as Chinese will get them . So we need to modify in such a way it will be superior to current Su35 . 

It's anyone's imagination . I belive in this gvt . There must be a plan for MMRCA . Or why they could just scrap it . 

This is my prediction bhai . I got from one of my friend during PM France visit . 

36 - 2 squadrons + One additional squadrons as follow on . Currently French have capability to produce 12 per year . But y hey want to increase it to 30-36 in 1/2 year. So with Egypt order for 26/36 , IAF order for 36+18 will he completed before 2020 . As for as IAF is concerned . 

It's a good move . When 2 5th generation jets under development . 3 Squadron will help us with some breather for future projects . 

Tejas to be operationalised in 2 months maximum . 

Tejas MK2 , AMCA FGFA need to be pushed . Mean while 1Squadron of PakFa and Follow on for rafale will do the trick .. 

NOTE : MMRCA CANCELED BUT FUTURE ORDERS ARE POSSIBLE WITH PRIVATE PLAYERS ROPED IN. HAL IS BETTER OPTION FOR SUKOIS .

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## PARIKRAMA

Ind4Ever said:


> Ya bhai just got the news on MMRCA . And we are going with Su35S I guess . It's been there as a Plan B for very long time . Many times Russian ambassador mentioned about it and hinting on there hope to sell Su35S to the Indian Airforce . Now we can't buy Su35 as Chinese will get them . So we need to modify in such a way it will be superior to current Su35 .
> 
> It's anyone's imagination . I belive in this gvt . There must be a plan for MMRCA . Or why they could just scrap it .
> 
> This is my prediction bhai . I got from one of my friend during PM France visit .
> 
> 36 - 2 squadrons + One additional squadrons as follow on . Currently French have capability to produce 12 per year . But y hey want to increase it to 30-36 in 1/2 year. So with Egypt order for 26/36 , IAF order for 36+18 will he completed before 2020 . As for as IAF is concerned .
> 
> It's a good move . When 2 5th generation jets under development . 3 Squadron will help us with some breather for future projects .
> 
> Tejas to be operationalised in 2 months maximum .
> 
> Tejas MK2 , AMCA FGFA need to be pushed . Mean while 1Squadron of PakFa and Follow on for rafale will do the trick ..
> 
> NOTE : MMRCA CANCELED BUT FUTURE ORDERS ARE POSSIBLE WITH PRIVATE PLAYERS ROPED IN. HAL IS BETTER OPTION FOR SUKOIS .




so 36+18 is a possibility.

You know the reliance angle and possible tweets by Nitin Gokhle (the guy who took DM MP interview in DD today some days back speculates a lot of things
see this



*nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
If Dassault can be persuaded to shift its assembly line to India (not under HAL), it would meet the Make in India requirements too!



*nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
Just a wild thought. Could it be that the entire Rafale assembly line relocates to India in coming years under the Make in India scheme?



*nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
The next steps on more Rafales is a matter of detail: sources. Being described as mix of meeting IAF's requirement and that of Make in India



*nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
Okay so I got it wrong on the numbers. 36 Rafale to be bought in ready to fly condition, announces PM. Price and further details awaited


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> @sancho
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pasting info posted by Olybrius in a seperate forum which is what Snacho had also posted in Main Rafale thread for easier understanding
> 
> *** Only 4 aircrafts are planned for the french military in 2016 and none the following years:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recettes exceptionnelles et exportation du Rafale : des paris à 10 milliards pour boucler le budget
> 
> Taking into account deliveries to Egypt (According to Air&cosmos)
> 2015: 6
> 2016: 5
> 2017: 5
> 2018: 5
> 2019: 3
> 
> In theory, 6 Rafale/year would be available for India from 2016 + n additionnal Rafale each year due to increased production.
> 
> 2016 - 6
> 2017 - 6
> thus 12 meaning 24 left
> Unless Dassault produces additional 12 birds with increased productivity or may be more production they wont be able to meet the 2017 timeline



The 7 next year and the 11 in 2017 were considered as reserved for India, as the first squad under the MMRCA tender, but even if the French Government gives us some of their production of this year (less than 11, because some of them wrere naval versions), that's not enough to form a 2nd squad. But the same production lot also is meant to provide fighters for Egypt, so it simply is not possible for the French Government, to provide that many fighters in 2 years. Also, because these fighters are meant to be diverted from the French order, it's not possible to increase the production rate, until France makes a new order with Dassault, for the fighters they have passed to other countries. 

2015 to 17 => 33 fighters on order from France. Now if they divert 11 to Egypt, 11 to India and keep 11 for their forces, Dassault would not get a single new order and therefor has no reason to increase the rate.


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## #hydra#

Su 34 gonna come I think instead of su35...


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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> But what are the details of Su35S.. Super30 ASQRs were fixed as on 2011 (quoted from Prasun Sengupta's blog). Yet Stealth version there is no details at all.
> 
> Moreover if its only 36+18 why bother for this deal also.. better make more of Su35S only then.
> 
> Unless make in India Reliance twist is real which a blogger N Gokhle stated that a etire manufacturing line (second line) may be bought for industrial production of Rafale in India



Bro Super skois are different deal. It's to upgrade our beast mKI with PakFa avionics and other stealth features . But Su35S is actually for two purposes. 1) For Jags replacement 2) So now we know it must be a logged for MMRCA plan B . So super is very different deal fro. SU35S . Which will won't be just an upgrade but like New 5th gen fighter other than PakFa . For different roles . Same like Jags and MKI differences . 

But now am worried about Air wing of Ins Vishal . Make no mistake it's the need of the hour. FOR may be used in a mix but can't form the full fleet which will lack Air dominance capabilities . Which is the main purpose when we want to have air dominance for our many kind of missions . 

Check this ... 

2 countries hv agreed on a deal for 36 planes in ready to fly condition.Make in India part will be after GoG negotiations- @manoharparrikar

So we might make few components in India for the 36+ jets. But am sure follow on order is in the provision of the new deal !!!



#hydra# said:


> Su 34 gonna come I think instead of su35...



That could be good if we upgrade them like MKI . SU34 much needed for long range deepstrike missions deep inside China . 

But my guts says we will go with Su35S ... ( Not present Su35S but but a different fighter all together developed on Su35 frame . Full stealth for low flying , upgraded EW suits etc )


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## PARIKRAMA

Ind4Ever said:


> But now am worried about Air wing of Ins Vishal . Make no mistake it's the need of the hour. FOR may be used in a mix but can't form the full fleet which will lack Air dominance capabilities . Which is the main purpose when we want to have air dominance for our many kind of missions .



I am sure for EMALSapproved by US i expect F35C bundled with that unless they offer EMALS standalone (unlikely). USA would never leave a single chance of Selling F35 as they need its sales asap to offset huge cost overlays.


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## Dillinger

Ind4Ever said:


> Ya bhai just got the news on MMRCA . And we are going with Su35S I guess . It's been there as a Plan B for very long time . Many times Russian ambassador mentioned about it and hinting on there hope to sell Su35S to the Indian Airforce . Now we can't buy Su35 as Chinese will get them . So we need to modify in such a way it will be superior to current Su35 .
> 
> It's anyone's imagination . I belive in this gvt . There must be a plan for MMRCA . Or why they could just scrap it .
> 
> This is my prediction bhai . I got from one of my friend during PM France visit .
> 
> 36 - 2 squadrons + One additional squadrons as follow on . Currently French have capability to produce 12 per year . But y hey want to increase it to 30-36 in 1/2 year. So with Egypt order for 26/36 , IAF order for 36+18 will he completed before 2020 . As for as IAF is concerned .
> 
> It's a good move . When 2 5th generation jets under development . 3 Squadron will help us with some breather for future projects .
> 
> Tejas to be operationalised in 2 months maximum .
> 
> Tejas MK2 , AMCA FGFA need to be pushed . Mean while 1Squadron of PakFa and Follow on for rafale will do the trick ..
> 
> NOTE : MMRCA CANCELED BUT FUTURE ORDERS ARE POSSIBLE WITH PRIVATE PLAYERS ROPED IN. HAL IS BETTER OPTION FOR SUKOIS .





#hydra# said:


> Su 34 gonna come I think instead of su35...



There will be no orders for the Su-34 or the 35. The IAF has simply no interest in either and the reported offers are just that, insubstantial offers made by OEMs or having been reported to be made by the media. Neither of the aircraft fit into the IAF's projected force structure. 

Furthermore, the MoD has officially stated (by way of the RM's) statement that any further purchase of the Rafale will be executed through the G2G route, this leaves the pvt. sector in India with only the option of entering the MRO business as far as the Rafale is considered, a privately run production line is out of the question (the cost escalation brought about due to such a production line would be untenable to begin with).

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Bhoot Pishach said:


> If HAL cannot make it cheaply with all the existing Experience Infrastructure and Manpower in place, are you nuts Reliance with "Zero" Experience in Precision Engineering forget about experience in Aviation Engineering, will be able to produce "CHEAPER AND BATTER" then HAL??
> 
> Same is true with all the Private Players.
> 
> Some are having experience of making some parts NOTHING MORE!!!



Nuts? ... Kindly check Yours? 

Fact1. Nowhere did I mention Reliance.

Fact2. Dassault can be trusted with producing Rafale in India with whichever Partner they choose to. I have no trust in those lazy, careless fat asses at HAL.

Fact3. I have more trust in Tata's, Mahindras, L&Ts, Bharat Forges than HAL. Their track record speaks for themselves. Just because The Government needs to feed their white elephants we can not comprise with the security of our country.

Fact4. The Boeings, Airbuses and Dassaults of the world would trust a TATA or L&T more than HAL or MDL. There is something called professionalism which I don't think any of our White Elephants have ever heard of the word.

Enough Said. Good riddance MMRCA. Good riddance HAL.

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## Dillinger

PARIKRAMA said:


> I am sure for EMALSapproved by US i expect F35C bundled with that unless they offer EMALS standalone (unlikely). USA would never leave a single chance of Selling F35 as they need its sales asap to offset huge cost overlays.



The US has no need to "bundle" the sales of the EMALS with the F-35, as such they will end up selling the E-2D to us anyway if we opt for either the EMALS of steam powered catapults.

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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> so 36+18 is a possibility.
> 
> You know the reliance angle and possible tweets by Nitin Gokhle (the guy who took DM MP interview in DD today some days back speculates a lot of things
> see this
> 
> 
> 
> *nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
> If Dassault can be persuaded to shift its assembly line to India (not under HAL), it would meet the Make in India requirements too!
> 
> 
> 
> *nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
> Just a wild thought. Could it be that the entire Rafale assembly line relocates to India in coming years under the Make in India scheme?
> 
> 
> 
> *nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
> The next steps on more Rafales is a matter of detail: sources. Being described as mix of meeting IAF's requirement and that of Make in India
> 
> 
> 
> *nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
> Okay so I got it wrong on the numbers. 36 Rafale to be bought in ready to fly condition, announces PM. Price and further details awaited



Again BANG ON !!! 
36+18 as per the new G2G deal . Extra orders depends up on what french are will to do . 

But negotiations will begin from today ! French President , HAL , PMO , mod Dassault all will be present as per my source . . 


Negotiations will be for manufacturing some equipment in India . As now we have given the french what they needed 54 rafale orders. Which will cherish their defence industry. Now talks will be for Rafale M too and For Nuclear Strike Force Am not sure whether we will use rafale or new MMRCA replacement . Which we speculate Su35S .



Dillinger said:


> The US has no need to "bundle" the sales of the EMALS with the F-35, as such they will end up selling the E-2D to us anyway if we opt for either the EMALS of steam powered catapults.



But we are not going for Steam Catapult systems . but electro magnetic system . And I don't think we will go for complete F35C or Lightening 2 either . At most we might but F35 for our So called 40 K helicopter carrier like Japanese are planing for . 

IN very much interested in weapon carrying capacity of Rafale M with 13 hard point upto 8/9 ton . Which is a good choice indeed . We can have a mix of fighter as we will have Catapult system to launch any kind of heavy fighters from the deck of Vishal . F35 will need pain in ye arse due to many other things too.


----------



## magudi

Ind4Ever said:


> Again BANG ON !!!
> 36+18 as per the new G2G deal . Extra orders depends up on what french are will to do .
> 
> But negotiations will begin from today ! French President , HAL , PMO , mod Dassault all will be present as per my source . .
> 
> 
> Negotiations will be for manufacturing some equipment in India . As now we have given the french what they needed 54 rafale orders. Which will cherish their defence industry. Now talks will be for Rafale M too and For Nuclear Strike Force Am not sure whether we will use rafale or new MMRCA replacement . Which we speculate Su35S .




su35s is out of question there won't be a new mmrca replacement


----------



## Ind4Ever

Dillinger said:


> The US has no need to "bundle" the sales of the EMALS with the F-35, as such they will end up selling the E-2D to us anyway if we opt for either the EMALS of steam powered catapults.



But we are not going for Steam Catapult systems . but electro magnetic system . And I don't think we will go for complete F35C or Lightening 2 either . At most we might but F35 for our So called 40 K helicopter carrier like Japanese are planing for . 

IN very much interested in weapon carrying capacity of Rafale M with 13 hard point upto 8/9 ton . Which is a good choice indeed . We can have a mix of fighter as we will have Catapult system to launch any kind of heavy fighters from the deck of Vishal . F35 will need pain in ye arse due to many other things too.


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## Nine Inch Nails

Whole lot of speculations.


I'm glad Modiji came to power.


Haters gonna hate and vandalize churches.


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## Ind4Ever

magudi said:


> su35s is out of question there won't be a new mmrca replacement



What is your point then ? We won't have anymore MMMRCA othe than 36 rafale


----------



## Vasily Zaytsev

The DM Parrikar to IBN7:

राफेल वायुसेना की जरूरत, सवाल बेमानीः पर्रिकर - IBN Khabar

*राफेल वायुसेना की जरूरत, सवाल बेमानीः पर्रिकर*
*सुमित अवस्थी | Apr 13, 2015 at 07:33pm | Updated Apr 13, 2015 at 09:33pm *

*नई दिल्ली। फ्रांस के लड़ाकू विमान राफेल की आलोचना कर रहे लोगों को आईबीएन7 पर देश के रक्षा मंत्री मनोहर पर्रिकर ने करारा जवाब दिया है। पर्रिकर ने आईबीएन7 से एक्सक्लूसिव बातचीत में साफ कहा कि ये विमान वायुसेना की जरूरत है। राफेल बेहतरीन क्षमता वाला विमान है और उसपर सवाल उठाना पूरी तरह से बेमानी है।*



*पर्रिकर ने राफेल को लेकर की जा रही आलोचनाओं का जवाब भी दिया और साफ कहा कि ये कहना गलत होगा कि राफेल विमान वायुसेना में इस वक्त मिग-21 विमानों का विकल्प है। पर्रिकर ने राफेल विमानों का विरोध कर रहे बीजेपी नेता सुब्रह्मण्यम स्वामी को समझाने की बात भी कही।*



*उन्होंने साफ कहा कि वो स्वामी से मिलेंगे और उन्हें समझाएंगे। गौरतलब है कि स्वामी ने इस सौदे के खिलाफ अदालत में जाने की धमकी दी थी। रक्षा मंत्री ने ये भी बताया कि मिग-21 की जगह देश में ही बन रहे हल्के विमान तेजस तैनात होंगे।*



*सुमित अवस्थी: 36 राफेल विमानों पर तो बात हो गई है लेकिन बाकी 90 विमानों के मुद्दे पर क्या बात हो रही है?*



*मनोहर पर्रिकर: मेक इन इंडिया पर दोनों सरकारों के साथ बात होने के बाद ही होगी। राफेल काफी महंगा विमान है। 126 विमानों के लिए 90 हजार करोड का सौदा होगा। सरकार से सरकार स्तर पर बात के बाद मेक इन इंडिया पर बात होगी। राफेल से मिग-21 रिप्लेस नहीं होगा, बाकी 90 विमानों पर हम चर्चा करेगें। तेजस से मिग-21 रिप्लेस होगा। 36 प्लेन खरीदने का निर्णय इन प्रिसिंपल हुआ है। दोनों देशों की टीमें बैठकर निर्णय लेगी कि कितने राफेल बनाने हैं। मिग 21 की जगह हल्का विमान तेजस लेगा।*



*सुमित अवस्थी: क्या ये सच है कि पिछले 10 सालों में दुनिया भर के रक्षा मंत्रालयों के मुकाबले हम पीछे छूट गए?*



*मनोहर पर्रिकर: मुझे किसी पर कीचढ़ फेंकने की आदत नहीं है, आरएफपी मॉडल से डील करना ही गलत है। पिछले दस सालों में किसी का किसी पर भरोसा नहीं रहा। एक रैंक, एक पेंशन का मुद्दा समाधान की ओर है। लेकिन कोर्ट के अंतरिम आदेश के कारण मुझे फैसला देखना होगा। अधिकतम 1 साल में हम एक रैंक, एक पेंशन को लागू कर सकेगें।*



*सुमित अवस्थी: राफेल सौदे को लेकर सुबह्यण्यम स्वामी कोर्ट जाने की बात कर रहे हैं?*



*मनोहर पर्रिकर: मैं सुबह्यण्यम स्वामी का सम्मान करता हूं। लेकिन मैं उन्हें एक दिन समझाने के लिए बुलाउंगा। उनका निर्णय इंस्टेट न्यूज पर आधारित हो सकता है।*



*सुमित अवस्थी: दिग्विजय सिंह के आरोपो पर क्या कहेंगे?*



*मनोहर पर्रिकर: हमारी डील क्लियर स्टेटमेंट पर है। हम आरएफपी से कम प्राइस पर बात करेगें। दोनों सरकारों के बीच सौदा क्या पहली बार हो रहा है।*


Some Clarity.

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## Bhoot Pishach

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Nuts? ... Kindly check Yours?
> 
> Fact1. Nowhere did I mention Reliance.
> 
> Fact2. Dassault can be trusted with producing Rafale in India with whichever Partner they choose to. I have no trust in those lazy, careless fat asses at HAL.
> 
> Fact3. I have more trust in Tata's, Mahindras, L&Ts, Bharat Forges than HAL. Their track record speaks for themselves. Just because The Government needs to feed their white elephants we can not comprise with the security of our country.
> 
> Fact4. The Boeings, Airbuses and Dassaults of the world would trust a TATA or L&T more than HAL or MDL. There is something called professionalism which I don't think any of our White Elephants have ever heard of the word.
> 
> Enough Said. Good riddance MMRCA. Good riddance HAL.



Dear "NUT" please dont jump the Gun!

Read MY POST AGAIN:

It clearly says:


Bhoot Pishach said:


> Same is true with all the Private Players.
> 
> Some are having experience of making some parts NOTHING MORE!!!


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## kaykay

Ind4Ever said:


> What is your point then ? We won't have anymore MMMRCA othe than 36 rafale


Why you think so? When DM clearly said that all further rafales will be procured through govt to govt route( bypassing dassault and thus no need of mmrca).


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## magudi

Ind4Ever said:


> What is your point then ? We won't have anymore MMMRCA othe than 36 rafale




Dm clearly says the following :-

36 will be bought in fly away condition from France 

Negotiations for another 90 to be made in India will go on, if they don't reach an agreement lca mk2 will take its place


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## Dillinger

Ind4Ever said:


> Again BANG ON !!!
> 36+18 as per the new G2G deal . Extra orders depends up on what french are will to do .
> 
> But negotiations will begin from today ! French President , HAL , PMO , mod Dassault all will be present as per my source . .
> 
> 
> Negotiations will be for manufacturing some equipment in India . As now we have given the french what they needed 54 rafale orders. Which will cherish their defence industry. Now talks will be for Rafale M too and For Nuclear Strike Force Am not sure whether we will use rafale or new MMRCA replacement . Which we speculate Su35S .
> 
> 
> 
> But we are not going for Steam Catapult systems . but electro magnetic system . And I don't think we will go for complete F35C or Lightening 2 either . At most we might but F35 for our So called 40 K helicopter carrier like Japanese are planing for .
> 
> IN very much interested in weapon carrying capacity of Rafale M with 13 hard point upto 8/9 ton . Which is a good choice indeed . We can have a mix of fighter as we will have Catapult system to launch any kind of heavy fighters from the deck of Vishal . F35 will need pain in ye arse due to many other things too.



The decision to opt for steam driven catapults or EMALS has not been taken yet, so the Indian Navy could end up with either and both of the systems would be a big step up for the Indian Navy. 

We are not going to be operating 40,000 ton "helicopter carriers"; it is only garbled up information which has been spewed by our witless scribes. The Indian Navy intends to operate 4 LHDs for HADR and marine combat operations, as such the top figure for the displacement of said LHD is going to be no more than 27,000 tons. Most importantly, a large helicopter carrier (by dint of being large) cannot simply operate a compliment of VL F-35s, the top deck would have to be specifically built for that purpose for it to be able to handle such operations (at the moment the Juan Carlos would have a better time at operating F-35s than the Izumo). 

As to whether the Indian Navy is interested in the marine Rafales, one cannot say either way; irregardless the future of its fixed wing carrier-borne force is now tied to the Mig-29K until a decision is taken to either opt for a completely different fixed wing combatant (best of luck with that given the IN's resources are even more strained than the IAF's) or we will opt for a carrier design incorporating a ski jump and catapults (for heavier AEW&C platforms).


----------



## #hydra#

We are not going to get more than 36 Rafi's,actually order for 36 is just a face saving action by govt of India.all aeging mig 21 will be replaced by tejas mk1 & mk2 together,a very wise movement.In future Jaguars will be replaced MKI used version of su34.AMCA will become our future medium category multirole fighter.


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## Ind4Ever

kaykay said:


> Why you think so? When DM clearly said that all further rafales will be procured through govt to govt route( bypassing dassault and thus no need of mmrca).



Bro right now there is now clarity . All are speculation. But if I may recall what DM as said " 36 rafale is for urgent requirement. Negotiations will take place to produce more aircraft needed to replace old migs (mig27s) . But it might be rafale or other aircraft. It don't have to to be Rafale alone. 

This is what he said. MMRCA canceled as per his statement made today . But G2G negotiations are still on for 

1) price of 36 
2) For manufacturer of parts in India 
3) for Future procurement if French are ready to offer a good deal . 
4) if possible to shift the supply line to India as their choice of Private partner . As we need another 18 (follow on + 45 Rafale M for the navy) 

So I speculate more rafale orders on transferring supply line to India . With other private players indeed . Which french was opting for with less ToT to the reliance rather than HAL. 

If this is what is going on then it's a better idea than pushing them to a contract with HAL . As in said . These are all my speculation . Since there is no any clear idea of future course of action by PM. He is simply unpredictable . In a whole new level . Will you be live if I said This 36 deal details is actually kept as secret from many babus of PMO and MoD ? . 

And look what happened with Nitin Ghokl 64 rafale predictions ? Actually he missed a que here. He was right when he said 3 squadrons and so he speculated 64 , 20 each . But we ended up with 18 each . As 36 is for 2 and 18 as follow on if needed . It makes it 3 . 

So we need to wait and keep eating our brains for now -_-

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Dear "NUT" please dont jump the Gun!
> 
> Read MY POST AGAIN:
> 
> It clearly says:




Oh Plheeaseeee. Its a defence forum. And People here are expected to know what the TATAs, L&T, Godrej etc have done in defence aerospace sector. Kid get yourself educated first about TATA, L&T, Godrej, Bharat Forge, Mahindra, Kirloskars before You Open Your mouth for My Nuts.

Now Shoooo.


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## Bhoot Pishach

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Now Shoooo.





Uncleji Which Car you Drive - TATA Indica, or Mahindra Bolaro????

Or atleast using Godraj Soap - Which One ?


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## Vasily Zaytsev

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Uncleji Which Car you Drive - TATA Indica, or Mahindra Bolaro????



Nahhh, Kid. My Nuts are too big for Your Mouth. Quite A Mouthful, aren't They? 

Tsk...Tsk.

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## Ind4Ever

Dillinger said:


> The decision to opt for steam driven catapults or EMALS has not been taken yet, so the Indian Navy could end up with either and both of the systems would be a big step up for the Indian Navy.
> 
> We are not going to be operating 40,000 ton "helicopter carriers"; it is only garbled up information which has been spewed by our witless scribes. The Indian Navy intends to operate 4 LHDs for HADR and marine combat operations, as such the top figure for the displacement of said LHD is going to be no more than 27,000 tons. Most importantly, a large helicopter carrier (by dint of being large) cannot simply operate a compliment of VL F-35s, the top deck would have to be specifically built for that purpose for it to be able to handle such operations (at the moment the Juan Carlos would have a better time at operating F-35s than the Izumo).
> 
> As to whether the Indian Navy is interested in the marine Rafales, one cannot say either way; irregardless the future of its fixed wing carrier-borne force is now tied to the Mig-29K until a decision is taken to either opt for a completely different fixed wing combatant (best of luck with that given the IN's resources are even more strained than the IAF's) or we will opt for a carrier design incorporating a ski jump and catapults (for heavier AEW&C platforms)


Bhai I seriously doubt that we will operate F35 or mig29 from Vishal . I don't see any other better replacement for RafaleM for our future carries. as Russians offer for Naval Mig35 for Vikrant already been turned down due to doubts on new platform. Instead we choose Mig29 again for Vikrant . It's not about the spec our IN is looking for but proven platform and RafaleM fits their rerequirements largely . Since its been in service with French Navy. And let's not doubt it's capabilities . It's a ripper at sea . F18 has no life left after 1 decade or so. Supply of spares will be a huge head for us . So its out of questions too.

And on F35 I seriously doubt it's capabilities so does our Navy. Spec alone won't win us war. I will chose F35 in small numbers for certain mission rather for all carrier operations. And it's not a proven platform with huge price tag if we want decent specs . And Japanese has no other option but to buy F35 under US pressure . And hence they came up with Helicopter carriers the likes of which we will operate . Most probably 27 T french vessel as you said. But am sure F35 can be operated from its deck . As VL and VT is very much similar to


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## Bhoot Pishach

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Nahhh, Kid. My Nuts are too big for Your Mouth. Quite A Mouthful, aren't They?
> 
> Tsk...Tsk.



Butter Hurt


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Sorry, can't hear You. You are choking ................... on My Nuts.



Uncle why getting angry? Auntiji engaged you in some TOT job like cleaning Utensils and Washing Clothes???

Complete you designated job before she knows about your roaming freely on PDF.

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Uncle why getting angry? Auntiji engaged you in some TOT job like cleaning Utensils and Washing Clothes???
> 
> Complete you designated job before she knows about your roaming freely on PDF.


You are still choking ................... on My Nuts. So can't hear You.

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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 35m35 minutes ago
> 3/n #36Rafale@manoharparrikar: HAL's manpower reqt ratio of 2.7:1 (visavis OEM) high,driving up costs Details on Make in India in 2 months
> 
> 
> So our HAL is inefficient and bcz of that cost is high??
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 1m1 minute ago
> #36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France: MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36
> 
> Either this is a pressure tactic as details in 2 months indicate or the rumored Su35Stealth version is a reality or perhaps PAKFA procurement quickly upfront like MKI..



Bang On ... Get ready for Stealth Su35S boys


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## Bhoot Pishach

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> You are still choking ................... on My Nuts. So can't hear You.



Uncleji I will not degrade my self to your level. Afterall this is not your fault, its your parents who failed to give you proper upbringing!

So live in your Dirty World!

Bye!


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## Pichkari

Bhoot Pishach said:


> THIS EXPLAINS EVERY THING. NO FURTHER PURCHASE OR "MAKE IN INDIA".
> 
> #36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France: MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36
> 
> — Vishal Thapar (@thaparvishal) April 13, 2015





Ind4Ever said:


> Bang On ... Get ready for Stealth Su35S boys




NO Chance dude.
IAF won be going for su 35 or su34.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Uncleji I will not degrade my self to your level. Afterall this is not your fault, its your parents who failed to give you proper upbringing!
> 
> So live in your Dirty World!
> 
> Bye!


Tsk...tsk.... Still Choking!


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

Pichkari said:


> NO Chance dude.
> IAF won be going for su 35 or su34.



Bitter Medicine for IAF is here for not having - NO "PLAN - B".

Now Tejas-MK1/MK2 (In large Numbers will be shove down their Throat), More Su-MKI (Super version) or Su-35s ---- If PKFA/FGFA goes late.

This will Keep IAF in GOOD HEALTH.

This will CURE "PHORAIN MALL" disease of IAF.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

In Berlin, Chancellor Merkel, will be rubbing her hands in glee after hearing this news of MMRCA cancellation. 
The guys at EF will try their level best to prepare the best G to G deal which the GOI finds it very difficult to refuse. 

Interesting times ahead. Get the Popcorn. The Rafale Vs EF game is still on.

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## Ind4Ever

*Future Rafale deals will also be under govt to govt: Manohar Parrikar*
By: Press Trust of India | New Delhi | Posted: April 13, 2015 8:54 pm | Updated: April 13, 2015 10:32 pm

Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on google_plusone_share


Comments (1)





Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.
India on Monday said all future negotiations for purchase of French Rafale fighters would be through government to government route, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said, discarding direct talks with manufacturers.

The disclosure came two days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government directly, sidestepping a grueling three-year negotiations for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft(MMRCA) tender.

While initially the tender was valued at about USD 10 billion for 126 aircraft, the current price is estimated to be over USD 20 billion, over which India had serious reservations.

Noting that negotiations had entered into a “loop” or a “vortex” with no solution in sight, Parrikar said direct negotiations with France will now decide how much more Rafale aircraft has to be bought and whether it will be under ‘Make in India’ programme.

The Minister refrained from giving a direct reply to questions whether the requirement of Air Force for more MMRCA will be through Rafale or if any other player can come into action.

“Scope was only possible in Government to Government deal. Instead of going through the Request for Proposal (RFP) route where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it was decided that we will go through the G2G route,” he said explaining that 36 Rafale jets would be procured in ready-to-fly condition.

He said what has to be done about the rest would be decided after discussions between the two government.

Asked what it means to the eight-year-old tender process for MMRCA, for which Rafale was shortlisted, Parrikar said it has not been decided yet.

“But if this (G2G) route is followed, obviously, one car cannot travel on two different roads. There were a lot of problems on that (tender) road. That is why we have adopted the procedure of direct government to government,” he said briefing reporters at South Block.

Replying to another query if future deals on Rafale would also be through G2G route, Parrikar said, “All deal(s) will be in G2G only. The 36 are in fly-away condition which means they will be manufactured by the company in France and supplied in fly away conditions”.

Under the MMRCA contract, while 18 aircraft were to be bought off the shelf, 108 were to be manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a license from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale.

Though Rafale was shortlisted in 2012 after a five-year tending process, a final contract could not be signed due to differences over two issues – pricing and Dassault’s reluctance to stand guarantee for planes manufactured by HAL.

- See more at: Future Rafale deals will also be under govt to govt: Manohar Parrikar | The Indian Express


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## wiseone2

is it 36 or 63 Rafale fighters ?


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## Ind4Ever

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> In Berlin, Chancellor Merkel, will be rubbing her hands in glee after hearing this news of MMRCA cancellation.
> The guys at EF will try their level best to prepare the best G to G deal which the GOI finds it very difficult to refuse.
> 
> Interesting times ahead. Get the Popcorn. The Rafale Vs EF game is still on.



Of course if EF can be offered with good deal as they said before with full Tot etc why not ? Germans was always there with MMRCA . May be ... JUST MAY BE keeping this in mind and heavy cost of rafale PM might have cancelled MMRCA so EF can be negotiated  

Start speculation as usual 

If it came true I wish I could see our neighbours faces



wiseone2 said:


> is it 36 or 63 Rafale fighters ?


36 so far conformed


----------



## Pichkari

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> In Berlin, Chancellor Merkel, will be rubbing her hands in glee after hearing this news of MMRCA cancellation.
> The guys at EF will try their level best to prepare the best G to G deal which the GOI finds it very difficult to refuse.
> 
> Interesting times ahead. Get the Popcorn. The Rafale Vs EF game is still on.



Highly unlikely. 36 rafales then 36 eft's lol
Why not go for 36 f18's 36 gripens and 36 f16's too.
Then we will have a nice assortment to show off.
In Unity in diversity,We believe.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

Pichkari said:


> Highly unlikely. 36 rafales then 36 eft's lol
> Why not go for 36 f18's 36 gripens and 36 f16's too.
> Then we will have a nice assortment to show off.
> In Unity in diversity,We believe.



The deal for 36 is still to be negotiated. And if EF can offer a better deal then why not? 
These 36 Rafales can go to SFC and IAF can have EF. All that I am saying is that EF has entered in the game if the contract is to be G to G.

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## Bullet500

syedali73 said:


> So the number is dropped down to 36 now?
> 
> Some interesting comments:
> 
> View attachment 214031



These people haven't read any of the Vedas (neither have I) and claim them to be source of super duper tech...I don't know when this nonsense will stop. 

As far as Rafale deal goes, at lease 36 is better than 0

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## Ind4Ever

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> The deal for 36 is still to be negotiated. And if EF can offer a better deal then why not?
> These 36 Rafales can go to SFC and IAF can have EF. All that I am saying is that EF has entered in the game if the contract is to be G to G.



I still remember during the result of MMRCA winner . Whole Internet community supported EF and few we on Rafale side due to its A2G and EW suits. But otherwise EF will eat rafale for breakfast in A2A . But the problem is to get spares if we don't get ToT . Now we will be locked in another loop for 4 countries . So better go for Su35S clean and clear road map with best HAL as a supplier for Sukois

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Ind4Ever said:


> I still remember during the result of MMRCA winner . Whole Internet community supported EF and few we on Rafale side due to its A2G and EW suits. But otherwise EF will eat rafale for breakfast in A2A . But the problem is to get spares if we don't get ToT . Now we will be locked in another loop for 4 countries . So better go for Su35S clean and clear road map with best HAL as a supplier for Sukois



Lets put aside these 36. Significant numbers further of any plane, be it Rafale/EF/Su35/XYZ will come through G to G Make in India route. MMRCA is gone. So each plane is fair game, Rafale/EF/Su35/XYZ.

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## Dillinger

Ind4Ever said:


> Bhai I seriously doubt that we will operate F35 or mig29 from Vishal . I don't see any other better replacement for RafaleM for our future carries. as Russians offer for Naval Mig35 for Vikrant already been turned down due to doubts on new platform. Instead we choose Mig29 again for Vikrant . It's not about the spec our IN is looking for but proven platform and RafaleM fits their rerequirements largely . Since its been in service with French Navy. And let's not doubt it's capabilities . It's a ripper at sea . F18 has no life left after 1 decade or so. Supply of spares will be a huge head for us . So its out of questions too.
> 
> And on F35 I seriously doubt it's capabilities so does our Navy. Spec alone won't win us war. I will chose F35 in small numbers for certain mission rather for all carrier operations. And it's not a proven platform with huge price tag if we want decent specs . And Japanese has no other option but to buy F35 under US pressure . And hence they came up with Helicopter carriers the likes of which we will operate . Most probably 27 T french vessel as you said. But am sure F35 can be operated from its deck . As VL and VT is very much similar to



You don't seem to be getting the point. The Indian Navy has *no* interest in operating a menagerie of fighters, the IAF itself has had a hard enough time operating fighters from varied OEMs and IN is definitely in no position to court such an MRO nightmare. We will* not *be operating any fixed wing combatants from our LHD (also at this point the LDH is unlikely to be French, Navantia is in the lead in this particular race). It doesn't matter if VTOL and STOL are "similar", the IN simply has no use for fixed wing combatants on its marine platforms, we are not building a marine expeditionary force and in the eventuality of a marine deployment during hostilities it will be one of the IN's carriers which will provide fixed wing air-cover (a luxury which the Japanese do not have and therefore may have to opt for VTOL F-35s in the future).

As to the Rafale, it is not its performance which is in question, it can be a "ripper" but that will not change the fact the IN is no position to operate three different fixed wing combatants in its carrier air arm (Mig-29K, N-LCA MK2 and the prospective Rafale). At this point- either the IN will opt for a future carrier configuration which will allow the deployment of both ski jump platforms (29K) as well as larger AEW&C aircrafts with the use of whichever system (steam of EMALS) they chose; or the IN will have to restructure its air wing drastically- which will strain its funds (at a time when it is expanding its sub-surface fleet aggressively- not an inexpensive venture).

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## wali87

kaykay said:


> Naah. They will be equipped with RBE2-AA'S ( AESA radars) along with Spectra suite from very start. By the way number of Rafale will now rise to 144 from 126 earlier, 36+108 now compared to 18+108 earlier. Seems you have missed many infos so I will suggest that go through the entire thread.



Well It appears my information was correct after all, which answers your suggestion of going through the entire thread lol. The MMRCA deal is cancelled. India is only going for 36 rafales despite my projection of 70, which would be supplemented by Tejas. So i guess IAF will have to settle with that. Understandably, 20 Billion dollars was an outlandishly high number, even for a country like India to afford. 36, however, sounds more realistic.
now i wouldn't suggest you go through the entire thread to get updated. But do bother to read up on it, its everywhere. and don't be disappointed.


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## RISING SUN

PARIKRAMA said:


> Nerpa 85? I thot its 190..
> Yes it is 190 Mw
> The reconditioned Russian leased Chakra with 190MW nuclear power plant............
> ..:: India Strategic ::. Navy: Indian Navy inducts n-powered attack submarine INS Chakra
> 
> Steam turbine is 43000 hp of course


As per my information Arihant reactor is rated at 85 mw stabilised power while Nerpa is rated at 180 mw peak power. Arihant's steam power is rated at 70 mw while Akula's steam power generated from nuke reactor power is rated at 85 mw. Thank you.

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## Ind4Ever

Dillinger said:


> You don't seem to be getting the point. The Indian Navy has *no* interest in operating a menagerie of fighters, the IAF itself has had a hard enough time operating fighters from varied OEMs and IN is definitely in no position to court such an MRO nightmare. We will* not *be operating any fixed wing combatants from our LHD (also at this point the LDH is unlikely to be French, Navantia is in the lead in this particular race). It doesn't matter if VTOL and STOL are "similar", the IN simply has no use for fixed wing combatants on its marine platforms, we are not building a marine expeditionary force and in the eventuality of a marine deployment during hostilities it will be one of the IN's carriers which will provide fixed wing air-cover (a luxury which the Japanese do not have and therefore may have to opt for VTOL F-35s in the future).
> 
> As to the Rafale, it is not its performance which is in question, it can be a "ripper" but that will not change the fact the IN is no position to operate three different fixed wing combatants in its carrier air arm (Mig-29K, N-LCA MK2 and the prospective Rafale). At this point- either the IN will opt for a future carrier configuration which will allow the deployment of both ski jump platforms (29K) as well as larger AEW&C aircrafts with the use of whichever system (steam of EMALS) they chose; or the IN will have to restructure its air wing drastically- which will strain its funds (at a time when it is expanding its sub-surface fleet aggressively- not an inexpensive venture).



Let's keep heli carrier out for moment . But how are you sure IN not interested in Rafale M for our next flat top carrier ? When Indian Navy have legally asked for RFI on Rafale M from dassault ? Which they have already submitted reply with IN recently if I may recall or if I am not wrong during later half of January 2015 ... CONFORMED BY DASSAULT chief himself.

*Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant*


Dassault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference that the French company has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter. 

Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant

Mig 29 K is a capable and most successful candidate too. But when IN can get more capable jet like Rafale M what's wrong with that. As of now 36 Rafale will be bought by IAF . Anyway we will have infrastructure for its maintenance purpose in India for sure . So logistics will be taken care of .



Dillinger said:


> You don't seem to be getting the point. The Indian Navy has *no* interest in operating a menagerie of fighters, the IAF itself has had a hard enough time operating fighters from varied OEMs and IN is definitely in no position to court such an MRO nightmare. We will* not *be operating any fixed wing combatants from our LHD (also at this point the LDH is unlikely to be French, Navantia is in the lead in this particular race). It doesn't matter if VTOL and STOL are "similar", the IN simply has no use for fixed wing combatants on its marine platforms, we are not building a marine expeditionary force and in the eventuality of a marine deployment during hostilities it will be one of the IN's carriers which will provide fixed wing air-cover (a luxury which the Japanese do not have and therefore may have to opt for VTOL F-35s in the future).
> 
> As to the Rafale, it is not its performance which is in question, it can be a "ripper" but that will not change the fact the IN is no position to operate three different fixed wing combatants in its carrier air arm (Mig-29K, N-LCA MK2 and the prospective Rafale). At this point- either the IN will opt for a future carrier configuration which will allow the deployment of both ski jump platforms (29K) as well as larger AEW&C aircrafts with the use of whichever system (steam of EMALS) they chose; or the IN will have to restructure its air wing drastically- which will strain its funds (at a time when it is expanding its sub-surface fleet aggressively- not an inexpensive venture).


Wonder how you claim Rafale won't be operated on Vishal when Navy shown keen interest on them . Later conformed by assault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference.


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## uparyupari

Ind4Ever said:


> Let's keep heli carrier out for moment . But how are you sure IN not interested in Rafale M for our next flat top carrier ? When Indian Navy have legally asked for RFI on Rafale M from dassault ? Which they have already submitted reply with IN recently if I may recall or if I am not wrong during later half of January 2015 ... CONFORMED BY DASSAULT chief himself.
> 
> *Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant*
> 
> 
> Dassault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference that the French company has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter.
> 
> Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant
> 
> Mig 29 K is a capable and most successful candidate too. But when IN can get more capable jet like Rafale M what's wrong with that. As of now 36 Rafale will be bought by IAF . Anyway we will have infrastructure for its maintenance purpose in India for sure . So logistics will be taken care of .
> 
> 
> Wonder how you claim Rafale won't be operated on Vishal when Navy shown keen interest on them . Later conformed by assault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference.



IN was interest when it thought the IAF is buying it and its being made in India. Under the current circumstances, IN will not touch it. It will always go with Naval LCA.


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## Ind4Ever

uparyupari said:


> IN was interest when it thought the IAF is buying it and its being made in India. Under the current circumstances, IN will not touch it. It will always go with Naval LCA.



You realise that we already bought it right ? And MMRCA cancelled but we MIGHT make in India under new G2G if possible/french willing to do so. Like MKI . 

And may be just may be this 36 is been sought keeping IN in mind . Vishal is supposed to be our most powerful war ship we ever built . So IN will be looking to get the best they can .


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## uparyupari

Ind4Ever said:


> You realise that we already bought it right ? And MMRCA cancelled but we MIGHT make in India under new G2G if possible/french willing to do so. Like MKI .
> 
> And may be just may be this 36 is been sought keeping IN in mind . Vishal is supposed to be our most powerful war ship we ever built . So IN will be looking to get the best they can .



So far we have only declared the intent to buy 36 Rafale PROVIDED they offer a lower price. 

Negotiations are still on and nothing has been signed yet. 

IN is quiet unlike the IAF. They prefer INDIAN stuff to Phoren maal. However good or bad the Indian maal might be, Indian Nay ALWAYS prefer Indian IF they have a choice.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Holland: the sale of additional Rafale to India "will be discussed"*
The Point - Published 14.04.2015 on 14:41 - Changed the 14.04.2015 at 14:46

*Negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority of which had to be manufactured in India.*

*The sale of additional Rafale to India, after an initial contract for 36 aircraft already passed, "will be discussed," but "our partner trust us", said Tuesday the president François Hollande, after recently sowed doubt by New Delhi about it. "The Rafale were sold within a framework that will be negotiated," said Francois Hollande, during a trip to Figeac (Lot). "It was necessary to do very quickly with the 36," said he explained with reference to the announcement made Friday by the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale. These 36 aircraft will be manufactured in France. Along with the sale of the 36 Rafale, negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority had to be manufactured in India. "For the rest, it will be discussed with our partner," but "he trusted us," continued Francois Hollande, following statements of India casting doubt on the future of this giant contract.*

*A contract close to 20 billion euros*
The Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar indicated Monday night that the negotiations would not only after a call for tenders, as for the first 36 aircraft, but "government to government". "The goal could be achieved in a government to government agreement," he said, estimating that the negotiations launched in 2012 were taken in a "whirlwind" no solution in sight. The initial contract for 126 Rafale stated that 108 of them are manufactured in India, but the discussions were skating on the overall cost of the devices as part of an innovative technological transfers. Initially estimated at 12 billion euros, the contract would be closer to 20 billion euros, the cost of production of 108 Rafale products in India proving higher than aircraft assembled in France. In contrast, 36 Rafale, the sale was announced Friday, will come out of the Dassault plants in France.

*The sale "is excellent for French industry, but at the same time, we must respect our Indian partner" and "see what part will be manufactured in France and how much will be manufactured in India," added the president Hollande, during a visit of advanced aeronautical industrial sites in Figeac.*


Hollande : la vente de Rafale supplémentaires à l'Inde "va être débattue" - Le Point




*MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief*



Welcoming the government's decision to buy 36 Rafale planes, former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief P V Naik today said India should not throw the deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) into the trash and renegotiate it through Government-to- Government (G2G) route. 

"I don't think the (MMRCA) deal is dead. The deal will probably be renegotiated, on a Government-to-Government basis if the price is right," the retired Air Chief Marshal told PTI in an interview. 

It was during Naik's tenure as IAF chief that India shortlisted Rafale jet and Eurofighter Typhoon in July 2010 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder. The price negotiations by Ministry of Defence then showed Rafale emerge as the lowest bidder (L1). 

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to France, announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from Dassault in fly-away condition through G2G route. 

"First of all, purchase of the 36 aircraft outright is a good thing. This is a positive step. The deal will be renegotiated on a G2G basis, like we have been doing with the US so far. We haven't done a G2G deal with any other country," Naik said. 

"Don't throw it (MMRCA deal) into the trash," he said, adding this means, whatever price that (French) air force gets at, you (India) will also get it at the same price. 

"They say the 36 aircraft will come (to India) in two years. If that happens, it is a good thing. After signing the contract, it takes minimum three years. Probably, we might gain a year or so," the former IAF chief said. 

He said people should not get worried about the deal. "You will get the number of aircraft needed." 

Asked what more does the Indian Government need to do to expedite the MMRCA deal, Naik said, "They will have to sit here at the ministry level, approve of the G2G deal. 

"I am not aware what transpired during the (Indo-French) discussions. If they have agreed to G2G, then there will be several other items on the basket," the former Air Chief Marshal said. 

To a query on his views on the status of overall defence procurement for IAF, he said, "it (procurement) is lagging. 

"This (MMRCA) is the biggest deal. It has been in the works for several years. Other things are on track, like additional AWACs, indigenisation and refuelling aircraft." 

Drawing the analogy that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated yesterday the USD 20 billion MMRCA tender may be scrapped.

MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief | Business Standard News

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## uparyupari

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Holland: the sale of additional Rafale to India "will be discussed"*
> The Point - Published 14.04.2015 on 14:41 - Changed the 14.04.2015 at 14:46
> 
> *Negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority of which had to be manufactured in India.*
> 
> *The sale of additional Rafale to India, after an initial contract for 36 aircraft already passed, "will be discussed," but "our partner trust us", said Tuesday the president François Hollande, after recently sowed doubt by New Delhi about it. "The Rafale were sold within a framework that will be negotiated," said Francois Hollande, during a trip to Figeac (Lot). "It was necessary to do very quickly with the 36," said he explained with reference to the announcement made Friday by the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale. These 36 aircraft will be manufactured in France. Along with the sale of the 36 Rafale, negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority had to be manufactured in India. "For the rest, it will be discussed with our partner," but "he trusted us," continued Francois Hollande, following statements of India casting doubt on the future of this giant contract.*
> 
> *A contract close to 20 billion euros*
> The Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar indicated Monday night that the negotiations would not only after a call for tenders, as for the first 36 aircraft, but "government to government". "The goal could be achieved in a government to government agreement," he said, estimating that the negotiations launched in 2012 were taken in a "whirlwind" no solution in sight. The initial contract for 126 Rafale stated that 108 of them are manufactured in India, but the discussions were skating on the overall cost of the devices as part of an innovative technological transfers. Initially estimated at 12 billion euros, the contract would be closer to 20 billion euros, the cost of production of 108 Rafale products in India proving higher than aircraft assembled in France. In contrast, 36 Rafale, the sale was announced Friday, will come out of the Dassault plants in France.
> 
> *The sale "is excellent for French industry, but at the same time, we must respect our Indian partner" and "see what part will be manufactured in France and how much will be manufactured in India," added the president Hollande, during a visit of advanced aeronautical industrial sites in Figeac.*
> 
> 
> Hollande : la vente de Rafale supplémentaires à l'Inde "va être débattue" - Le Point
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief*
> 
> 
> 
> Welcoming the government's decision to buy 36 Rafale planes, former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief P V Naik today said India should not throw the deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) into the trash and renegotiate it through Government-to- Government (G2G) route.
> 
> "I don't think the (MMRCA) deal is dead. The deal will probably be renegotiated, on a Government-to-Government basis if the price is right," the retired Air Chief Marshal told PTI in an interview.
> 
> It was during Naik's tenure as IAF chief that India shortlisted Rafale jet and Eurofighter Typhoon in July 2010 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder. The price negotiations by Ministry of Defence then showed Rafale emerge as the lowest bidder (L1).
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to France, announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from Dassault in fly-away condition through G2G route.
> 
> "First of all, purchase of the 36 aircraft outright is a good thing. This is a positive step. The deal will be renegotiated on a G2G basis, like we have been doing with the US so far. We haven't done a G2G deal with any other country," Naik said.
> 
> "Don't throw it (MMRCA deal) into the trash," he said, adding this means, whatever price that (French) air force gets at, you (India) will also get it at the same price.
> 
> "They say the 36 aircraft will come (to India) in two years. If that happens, it is a good thing. After signing the contract, it takes minimum three years. Probably, we might gain a year or so," the former IAF chief said.
> 
> He said people should not get worried about the deal. "You will get the number of aircraft needed."
> 
> Asked what more does the Indian Government need to do to expedite the MMRCA deal, Naik said, "They will have to sit here at the ministry level, approve of the G2G deal.
> 
> "I am not aware what transpired during the (Indo-French) discussions. If they have agreed to G2G, then there will be several other items on the basket," the former Air Chief Marshal said.
> 
> To a query on his views on the status of overall defence procurement for IAF, he said, "it (procurement) is lagging.
> 
> "This (MMRCA) is the biggest deal. It has been in the works for several years. Other things are on track, like additional AWACs, indigenisation and refuelling aircraft."
> 
> Drawing the analogy that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated yesterday the USD 20 billion MMRCA tender may be scrapped.
> 
> MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief | Business Standard News



Flogging a Dead horse


----------



## Ind4Ever

uparyupari said:


> So far we have only declared the intent to buy 36 Rafale PROVIDED they offer a lower price.
> 
> Negotiations are still on and nothing has been signed yet.
> 
> IN is quiet unlike the IAF. They prefer INDIAN stuff to Phoren maal. However good or bad the Indian maal might be, Indian Nay ALWAYS prefer Indian IF they have a choice.


Understand !! I agree . But my point was When we have mig 29K in service Our Navy sent RFI for rafale . So what it means ? We are not looking to operate migs on Vishal. We are going for big one.


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## uparyupari

Ind4Ever said:


> Understand !! I agree . But my point was When we have mig 29K in service Our Navy sent RFI for rafale . So what it means ? We are not looking to operate migs on Vishal. We are going for big one.



RFI is Request for Information. 

IN just wanted Information on Rafale IF it was being made in India. If its NOT being made in India, IN will drop it like a hot potato. 

IN is currently very keen on Naval LCA and AMCA in the future. No scope for Rafale.


----------



## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Holland: the sale of additional Rafale to India "will be discussed"*
> The Point - Published 14.04.2015 on 14:41 - Changed the 14.04.2015 at 14:46
> 
> *Negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority of which had to be manufactured in India.*
> 
> *The sale of additional Rafale to India, after an initial contract for 36 aircraft already passed, "will be discussed," but "our partner trust us", said Tuesday the president François Hollande, after recently sowed doubt by New Delhi about it. "The Rafale were sold within a framework that will be negotiated," said Francois Hollande, during a trip to Figeac (Lot). "It was necessary to do very quickly with the 36," said he explained with reference to the announcement made Friday by the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale. These 36 aircraft will be manufactured in France. Along with the sale of the 36 Rafale, negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority had to be manufactured in India. "For the rest, it will be discussed with our partner," but "he trusted us," continued Francois Hollande, following statements of India casting doubt on the future of this giant contract.*
> 
> *A contract close to 20 billion euros*
> The Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar indicated Monday night that the negotiations would not only after a call for tenders, as for the first 36 aircraft, but "government to government". "The goal could be achieved in a government to government agreement," he said, estimating that the negotiations launched in 2012 were taken in a "whirlwind" no solution in sight. The initial contract for 126 Rafale stated that 108 of them are manufactured in India, but the discussions were skating on the overall cost of the devices as part of an innovative technological transfers. Initially estimated at 12 billion euros, the contract would be closer to 20 billion euros, the cost of production of 108 Rafale products in India proving higher than aircraft assembled in France. In contrast, 36 Rafale, the sale was announced Friday, will come out of the Dassault plants in France.
> 
> *The sale "is excellent for French industry, but at the same time, we must respect our Indian partner" and "see what part will be manufactured in France and how much will be manufactured in India," added the president Hollande, during a visit of advanced aeronautical industrial sites in Figeac.*
> 
> 
> Hollande : la vente de Rafale supplémentaires à l'Inde "va être débattue" - Le Point
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief*
> 
> 
> 
> Welcoming the government's decision to buy 36 Rafale planes, former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief P V Naik today said India should not throw the deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) into the trash and renegotiate it through Government-to- Government (G2G) route.
> 
> "I don't think the (MMRCA) deal is dead. The deal will probably be renegotiated, on a Government-to-Government basis if the price is right," the retired Air Chief Marshal told PTI in an interview.
> 
> It was during Naik's tenure as IAF chief that India shortlisted Rafale jet and Eurofighter Typhoon in July 2010 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder. The price negotiations by Ministry of Defence then showed Rafale emerge as the lowest bidder (L1).
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to France, announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from Dassault in fly-away condition through G2G route.
> 
> "First of all, purchase of the 36 aircraft outright is a good thing. This is a positive step. The deal will be renegotiated on a G2G basis, like we have been doing with the US so far. We haven't done a G2G deal with any other country," Naik said.
> 
> "Don't throw it (MMRCA deal) into the trash," he said, adding this means, whatever price that (French) air force gets at, you (India) will also get it at the same price.
> 
> "They say the 36 aircraft will come (to India) in two years. If that happens, it is a good thing. After signing the contract, it takes minimum three years. Probably, we might gain a year or so," the former IAF chief said.
> 
> He said people should not get worried about the deal. "You will get the number of aircraft needed."
> 
> Asked what more does the Indian Government need to do to expedite the MMRCA deal, Naik said, "They will have to sit here at the ministry level, approve of the G2G deal.
> 
> "I am not aware what transpired during the (Indo-French) discussions. If they have agreed to G2G, then there will be several other items on the basket," the former Air Chief Marshal said.
> 
> To a query on his views on the status of overall defence procurement for IAF, he said, "it (procurement) is lagging.
> 
> "This (MMRCA) is the biggest deal. It has been in the works for several years. Other things are on track, like additional AWACs, indigenisation and refuelling aircraft."
> 
> Drawing the analogy that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated yesterday the USD 20 billion MMRCA tender may be scrapped.
> 
> MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief | Business Standard News


Exactly bhai. ... MNRCA is dead but G2G is very possible. Now French have shown interest by openly conveying thru media. This must give lots buzz among their people too. So Rafale might be made in India but now with Private Player of their choice .



uparyupari said:


> RFI is Request for Information.
> 
> IN just wanted Information on Rafale IF it was being made in India. If its NOT being made in India, IN will drop it like a hot potato.
> 
> IN is currently very keen on Naval LCA and AMCA in the future. No scope for Rafale.


Are Mig29 made in India ? Bhai come on !!!


----------



## uparyupari

Ind4Ever said:


> Exactly bhai. ... MNRCA is dead but G2G is very possible. Now French have shown interest by openly conveying thru media. This must give lots buzz among their people too. So Rafale might be made in India but now with Private Player of their choice .



How much do the private player need to invest to manufacture an aircraft in India ? 

How are they going to recover the cost ? Buy increasing the price of the Rafale. That is how.



> Are Mig29 made in India ? Bhai come on !!!



Mig 29K was purchased BEFORE LCA was flying. Besides we were required to buy as that deal was part of the larger dal to buy Vikramaditya.

Wishful thinking is not reality.


----------



## Ind4Ever

uparyupari said:


> How much do the private player need to invest to manufacture an aircraft in India ?
> 
> How are they going to recover the cost ? Buy increasing the price of the Rafale. That is how.
> 
> 
> 
> Mig 29K was purchased BEFORE LCA was flying. Besides we were required to buy as that deal was part of the larger dal to buy Vikramaditya.
> 
> Wishful thinking is not reality.



Well reliance was ready for it . So leave it to them and the French . 

As per your logic our IAF will operate rafale too like mig 29 .

Now price will be negotiated thru G2G with less ToT at the moment. If not full tot .

And RFI is not a timepass. It's shows our intent to buy naval version .



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Holland: the sale of additional Rafale to India "will be discussed"*
> The Point - Published 14.04.2015 on 14:41 - Changed the 14.04.2015 at 14:46
> 
> *Negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority of which had to be manufactured in India.*
> 
> *The sale of additional Rafale to India, after an initial contract for 36 aircraft already passed, "will be discussed," but "our partner trust us", said Tuesday the president François Hollande, after recently sowed doubt by New Delhi about it. "The Rafale were sold within a framework that will be negotiated," said Francois Hollande, during a trip to Figeac (Lot). "It was necessary to do very quickly with the 36," said he explained with reference to the announcement made Friday by the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale. These 36 aircraft will be manufactured in France. Along with the sale of the 36 Rafale, negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority had to be manufactured in India. "For the rest, it will be discussed with our partner," but "he trusted us," continued Francois Hollande, following statements of India casting doubt on the future of this giant contract.*
> 
> *A contract close to 20 billion euros*
> The Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar indicated Monday night that the negotiations would not only after a call for tenders, as for the first 36 aircraft, but "government to government". "The goal could be achieved in a government to government agreement," he said, estimating that the negotiations launched in 2012 were taken in a "whirlwind" no solution in sight. The initial contract for 126 Rafale stated that 108 of them are manufactured in India, but the discussions were skating on the overall cost of the devices as part of an innovative technological transfers. Initially estimated at 12 billion euros, the contract would be closer to 20 billion euros, the cost of production of 108 Rafale products in India proving higher than aircraft assembled in France. In contrast, 36 Rafale, the sale was announced Friday, will come out of the Dassault plants in France.
> 
> *The sale "is excellent for French industry, but at the same time, we must respect our Indian partner" and "see what part will be manufactured in France and how much will be manufactured in India," added the president Hollande, during a visit of advanced aeronautical industrial sites in Figeac.*
> 
> 
> Hollande : la vente de Rafale supplémentaires à l'Inde "va être débattue" - Le Point
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief*
> 
> 
> 
> Welcoming the government's decision to buy 36 Rafale planes, former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief P V Naik today said India should not throw the deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) into the trash and renegotiate it through Government-to- Government (G2G) route.
> 
> "I don't think the (MMRCA) deal is dead. The deal will probably be renegotiated, on a Government-to-Government basis if the price is right," the retired Air Chief Marshal told PTI in an interview.
> 
> It was during Naik's tenure as IAF chief that India shortlisted Rafale jet and Eurofighter Typhoon in July 2010 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder. The price negotiations by Ministry of Defence then showed Rafale emerge as the lowest bidder (L1).
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to France, announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from Dassault in fly-away condition through G2G route.
> 
> "First of all, purchase of the 36 aircraft outright is a good thing. This is a positive step. The deal will be renegotiated on a G2G basis, like we have been doing with the US so far. We haven't done a G2G deal with any other country," Naik said.
> 
> "Don't throw it (MMRCA deal) into the trash," he said, adding this means, whatever price that (French) air force gets at, you (India) will also get it at the same price.
> 
> "They say the 36 aircraft will come (to India) in two years. If that happens, it is a good thing. After signing the contract, it takes minimum three years. Probably, we might gain a year or so," the former IAF chief said.
> 
> He said people should not get worried about the deal. "You will get the number of aircraft needed."
> 
> Asked what more does the Indian Government need to do to expedite the MMRCA deal, Naik said, "They will have to sit here at the ministry level, approve of the G2G deal.
> 
> "I am not aware what transpired during the (Indo-French) discussions. If they have agreed to G2G, then there will be several other items on the basket," the former Air Chief Marshal said.
> 
> To a query on his views on the status of overall defence procurement for IAF, he said, "it (procurement) is lagging.
> 
> "This (MMRCA) is the biggest deal. It has been in the works for several years. Other things are on track, like additional AWACs, indigenisation and refuelling aircraft."
> 
> Drawing the analogy that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated yesterday the USD 20 billion MMRCA tender may be scrapped.
> 
> MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief | Business Standard News


@PARIKRAMA what's your thoughts Bro ? Twist in the tale ? 

@The_Sidewinder  wtf ? Roller coaster ride once again


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## uparyupari

Ind4Ever said:


> Well reliance was ready for it . So leave it to them and the French .
> 
> As per your logic our IAF will operate rafale too like mig 29 .
> 
> Now price will be negotiated thru G2G with less ToT at the moment. If not full tot .
> 
> And RFI is not a timepass. It's shows our intent to buy naval version .



How is G2G negotiations any different from normal negotiations ? ToT as per MMRCA is 50%. As per normal rules is only 30%. 

So how can G2G negotiations lead to MORE ToT ? 

At least TRY to be rational.


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## migflug

Buying "126 (fighters) would cost India about Rs. 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter," Mr Parrikar asked, adding, "you don't agree to a 1 lakh crore deal" without working out how and from where the money will come."

He said the Modi government would now review acquisitions worth Rs. 5,40,000 crore cleared by the previous government.

The BJP government, the minister said, will first acquire only equipment and weapon systems that are critical for the three forces. "We are in the process of weeding out the rest."

"Today we have only 40 LCAs, why can't we have 100 of these?" he said.

How many each of the Rafale and Tejas fighters will be deployed will depend on negotiations with the French government on any further purchase from Dassault, he said

The government, Mr Parrikar said, wants a fighter jet manufacturer to set up a facility in India which "may not necessarily be Dassault."


Good news for tejas

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## Ind4Ever

uparyupari said:


> How is G2G negotiations any different from normal negotiations ? ToT as per MMRCA is 50%. As per normal rules is only 30%.
> 
> So how can G2G negotiations lead to MORE ToT ?
> 
> At least TRY to be rational.



NOW it's 3rd source claiming the same. Negotiations are still on . But thru G2G . Look what french has said. They seems very thankful for the deal of 36 rafale. Now they might look to assemble them in India like we started with MKI . Later we can keep increasing our locally made components . Am just quoting what French and DM has said Bro And on IN interest it's not my speculation or something but the official statement made by Dassault chief executive officer during a press conference. And navy won't just ask for RFI because they are bored . But some serious intent is there for very long time. Given the capability rafale can bring to IN its not a surprise . I strongly belive it's gonna be very positive . Mr.AK Antony had nearly a decade but did nothing so I really willing to give few more months for DM and our proactive PM . I don't see why french won't agree to make in India programme when they are already busy with current orders from French AF , Egypt and IAF . More orders expected from others too. So its a master stroke to buy 36 off the shelf . They must show the same gratitude towards us now. Now let's see what they actually do . And when they openly talk about ongoing talks for additional 124 from the top most source openly why not to belive with that ?



migflug said:


> Buying "126 (fighters) would cost India about Rs. 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter," Mr Parrikar asked, adding, "you don't agree to a 1 lakh crore deal" without working out how and from where the money will come."
> 
> He said the Modi government would now review acquisitions worth Rs. 5,40,000 crore cleared by the previous government.
> 
> The BJP government, the minister said, will first acquire only equipment and weapon systems that are critical for the three forces. "We are in the process of weeding out the rest."
> 
> "Today we have only 40 LCAs, why can't we have 100 of these?" he said.
> 
> How many each of the Rafale and Tejas fighters will be deployed will depend on negotiations with the French government on any further purchase from Dassault, he said
> 
> The government, Mr Parrikar said, wants a fighter jet manufacturer to set up a facility in India which "may not necessarily be Dassault."
> 
> 
> Good news for tejas



Wowieeee Wowieeee Wowieeee 

Finally .... Our request been answered. He also mentioned about Tejas completing all the certification , clearing all the issues in 1or 2 months  

Good move ... First fill the critical requirements. Then go for future requirement  ... This 36 is for stop gap. Am now feeling we might go for more rafale in coming years.

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## uparyupari

Ind4Ever said:


> NOW it's 3rd source claiming the same. Negotiations are still on . But thru G2G . Look what french has said. They seems very thankful for the deal of 36 rafale. Now they might look to assemble them in India like we started with MKI . Later we can keep increasing our locally made components . Am just quoting what French and DM has said Bro And on IN interest it's not my speculation or something but the official statement made by Dassault chief executive officer during a press conference. And navy won't just ask for RFI because they are bored . But some serious intent is there for very long time. Given the capability rafale can bring to IN its not a surprise . I strongly belive it's gonna be very positive . Mr.AK Antony had nearly a decade but did nothing so I really willing to give few more months for DM and our proactive PM . I don't see why french won't agree to make in India programme when they are already busy with current orders from French AF , Egypt and IAF . More orders expected from others too. So its a master stroke to buy 36 off the shelf . They must show the same gratitude towards us now. Now let's see what they actually do . And when they openly talk about ongoing talks for additional 124 from the top most source openly why not to belive with that ?



1. French govt. will say what ever is pleasing for the French public. That is how politicians work. You need to focus on what INDIAN govt. is saying. 

2. Dassault has been looking at make in India for the last 3-6 years, nothing has changed. 

3. Reason for IN asked for RFI is already explained. What part of that did you not understand ? 

4. LOL at your assumption that they will show "gratitude"  ..... they will show NO such thing. They are not fools. 

5. Dassault in its entire history has not agreed to make its aircraft any where else. No reason to start now. 

6. Finally they know Rafale is pretty much the ONLY option for IAF and GoI. Too many vendors for Eurofighter, US is out, SAAB is similar to LCA and Russia is not wanted.


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## janon

uparyupari said:


> 5. Dassault in its entire history has not agreed to make its aircraft any where else. No reason to start now.



Umm...what?

Australia and Switzerland have both manufactured Mirage-IIIs, and Dassault agreed for South Africa's production of both Mirage-III and Mirage-F1 under license (but later had to cancel it due to an arms embargo). They also proposed building mirage-2K in India, which the GoI stupidly rejected.


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## uparyupari

janon said:


> Umm...what?
> 
> Australia and Switzerland have both manufactured Mirage-IIIs, and Dassault agreed for South Africa's production of both Mirage-III and Mirage-F1 under license (but later had to cancel it due to an arms embargo). They also proposed building mirage-2K in India, which the GoI stupidly rejected.



Ah yes, back in 1963 they had done a ToT. Good catch. 

Anything after that ?


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## PARIKRAMA

Ind4Ever said:


> what's your thoughts Bro ? Twist in the tale ?




See its clear that PM Modi one on one had clearly stated that India is very interested in Rafale and would like to make the entire MMRCA tender of 189 birds purchase work. But certain complexities like
1. the actual cost of TOT transfer (setting up the unit and supply tie ups)
2. the cost of production by HAL (higher cost quoted 2.7 times French produced rafales in terms of manhours)
3. In ability at present to absorb certain hitech like example GaN modules in Aesa radar (Semiconductor industry maturity still not upto that level)

Thus it was very clear that previous government when they realised all this sat on the process for 2+ years as they realised that the potential is immense under 50% offset but perhaps the present defence aero complex may still need more maturity to undertake such a epic technological upliftment required for Rafale.

Translated all this would add cost to Rafale production in India by HAL under MMRCA.
So the alternative is to do away MMRCA and perhaps produce Rafale under Make in India via tie up with Dassault thru G2G route.

the critical question: How will rafale produced by Reliance tie up or any private/ JV tie up would be cheaprer.
The answer is very very simple.
1. offset clause would be 30% not 50% stipulated under MMRCA
2. TOT of critical tech would not be forced upon (straight forward drop in cost)
3. Most importantly it would be ASSEMBLED (via kits) in the Reliance facility (perhaps in Gujarat)
4. The deal may be seeing complementary positions by Ambani brothers - Mukesh taking the assembly and ANil perhaps the MRO or may bewhatever they can share together cohesively.
5. 30% offset means certain localisation which Dassault needs to stick through in letter and spirit (not just simulators) and here comes the push from France government to adherance and review part
6. Weapons package also partially would include indian partners + the MRO business.

This plan is what i believe PM Modi had clearly talked with President Hollande but without taking Reliance 's Name.

Now President Hollande was impressed with 2 points
1. India's wishes to buy Rafales in good numbers
2. It wants hollande meaning French government help as it feels Dassault keeps personal corporate interests first whereas India- france both governments think much beyond that and takes position due to strategic partnership we share together

Of course its a very good news for Hollande as now unemployment and Dassault orders would certainly mean that it is french government which saved Dassault from losing the biggest deal of its lifetime and Hollande position (political) is strengthened with such a good lucrative deal. By reciprocating to PM modi's discussion positively and nudging according to the plan, Make in India is also satisfied. IAF is also kept happy and all the tangles of MMRCA is avoided.

The above interview of Hollande very much makes me feel that this path is what the both leaders have planned.

On top cherry picking would be incase this is actually realised than rumoured Baracuda N reactor help is provided (K15 reactor) which definitely would be potentially the game changer for the N sub project for bigger subs ( this reactor is 150 MW). Not really sure if we would like that reactor help or not as Russian help is already there in 83Mw Arihant. I expect if Hollande convinces a good price route for this Make in India rafale then may be we will see 6 more scorpenes order too..

This my friend is my gut feeling. PM Modi will definitely make some Juggad and ensure 8 years of MMRCA is not wasted but perhaps custom fitted to support his make in India initiative.

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## wiseone2

janon said:


> Umm...what?
> 
> Australia and Switzerland have both manufactured Mirage-IIIs, and Dassault agreed for South Africa's production of both Mirage-III and Mirage-F1 under license (but later had to cancel it due to an arms embargo). They also proposed building mirage-2K in India, which the GoI stupidly rejected.



mirage-2000 were all manufactured in france. i remember the offer of mirage-2000 production line.


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## janon

uparyupari said:


> Ah yes, back in 1963 they had done a ToT. Good catch.
> 
> Anything after that ?


As I said, they also offered to transfer the entire M2K production likne to India in 2001. It was our stupidity not to grab the offer with both hands.

Your statement that Dassault hasn't agreed to manufacture its aircrafts anywhere else "in it entire history" is very very wrong.

BTW, how many fighters have they produced, between the Mirage-III family and the M2K?

Seems like they have agreed to manufacture every aircraft they made since the 1960s, outside.



wiseone2 said:


> mirage-2000 were all manufactured in france. i remember the offer of mirage-2000 production line.


I know, I was talking about their 2001 offer.


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## Pichkari

HERE IS DEFENSE MINISTERS INTERVIEW
Highlights
1] Negotiations on for 36 rafales .MMRCA dead
2] During these procurement of more rafales will be discussed but all through gtg route
3] Final number may not necessarily be 90 more.
4] He explains the problem of cost escaltiond due to HAL production.
5lLCA or a single engine aircraft and not ]Rafale will be a replacement for MIG21.

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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> See its clear that PM Modi one on one had clearly stated that India is very interested in Rafale and would like to make the entire MMRCA tender of 189 birds purchase work. But certain complexities like
> 1. the actual cost of TOT transfer (setting up the unit and supply tie ups)
> 2. the cost of production by HAL (higher cost quoted 2.7 times French produced rafales in terms of manhours)
> 3. In ability at present to absorb certain hitech like example GaN modules in Aesa radar (Semiconductor industry maturity still not upto that level)
> 
> Thus it was very clear that previous government when they realised all this sat on the process for 2+ years as they realised that the potential is immense under 50% offset but perhaps the present defence aero complex may still need more maturity to undertake such a epic technological upliftment required for Rafale.
> 
> Translated all this would add cost to Rafale production in India by HAL under MMRCA.
> So the alternative is to do away MMRCA and perhaps produce Rafale under Make in India via tie up with Dassault thru G2G route.
> 
> the critical question: How will rafale produced by Reliance tie up or any private/ JV tie up would be cheaprer.
> The answer is very very simple.
> 1. offset clause would be 30% not 50% stipulated under MMRCA
> 2. TOT of critical tech would not be forced upon (straight forward drop in cost)
> 3. Most importantly it would be ASSEMBLED (via kits) in the Reliance facility (perhaps in Gujarat)
> 4. The deal may be seeing complementary positions by Ambani brothers - Mukesh taking the assembly and ANil perhaps the MRO or may bewhatever they can share together cohesively.
> 5. 30% offset means certain localisation which Dassault needs to stick through in letter and spirit (not just simulators) and here comes the push from France government to adherance and review part
> 6. Weapons package also partially would include indian partners + the MRO business.
> 
> This plan is what i believe PM Modi had clearly talked with President Hollande but without taking Reliance 's Name.
> 
> Now President Hollande was impressed with 2 points
> 1. India's wishes to buy Rafales in good numbers
> 2. It wants hollande meaning French government help as it feels Dassault keeps personal corporate interests first whereas India- france both governments think much beyond that and takes position due to strategic partnership we share together
> 
> Of course its a very good news for Hollande as now unemployment and Dassault orders would certainly mean that it is french government which saved Dassault from losing the biggest deal of its lifetime and Hollande position (political) is strengthened with such a good lucrative deal. By reciprocating to PM modi's discussion positively and nudging according to the plan, Make in India is also satisfied. IAF is also kept happy and all the tangles of MMRCA is avoided.
> 
> The above interview of Hollande very much makes me feel that this path is what the both leaders have planned.
> 
> On top cherry picking would be incase this is actually realised than rumoured Baracuda N reactor help is provided (K15 reactor) which definitely would be potentially the game changer for the N sub project for bigger subs ( this reactor is 150 MW). Not really sure if we would like that reactor help or not as Russian help is already there in 83Mw Arihant. I expect if Hollande convinces a good price route for this Make in India rafale then may be we will see 6 more scorpenes order too..
> 
> This my friend is my gut feeling. PM Modi will definitely make some Juggad and ensure 8 years of MMRCA is not wasted but perhaps custom fitted to support his make in India initiative.



Bang on man ... I except some positive announcements in few weeks time after PM returns home. All the issue of price now be sorted out with reliance and french already assured the govt about dedicated infrastructure to churn out the issue faced by HAL manpower . So cost will have to come down. Now am waiting for the news on Su35S . Fry mysterious news came out stating Su35S already being testing in India for 2years . That too 2 jets as been flown in. Some serious testing must been taking place . 

Now looks like MoD willing to go for 100 tejas and so can reduce the next batch order (if we go for) from 124 to 90 something jets or less . So Migs can be pulled out of service .By that time of 100 tejas or at least previously rumoured 80 in total can be done when Tejas 2 enters production . And so full fleet of Mi21 retirement can be sorted out . This govt as a good motive, very brave to take adverse steps to prop up our fleet strength . MMRCA cancelled mainly due to HAL being roped in unnecessarily . When we know they are already busy and will he for the next 2 decades with AMCA , Sukois upgrades, FGFA etc . 

It's positive if you ask me . So agree with your points . Except Submarine nuclear reactor . Which I guess will be drawn out from Akula . We had very detailed discussion on this before few weeks ago .

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## salarsikander

uparyupari said:


> This is an opportunity for both Eurofighter and Rafale to make a pitch of "make in India", select their own partners and make a direct pitch to MoD and GoI
> 
> The offer with the maximum offset and lowest price gets the new deal


And wait for another 10 years ?


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## doublemaster

Present deal was much easier to establish than the previous one which had to make in India. Would have been great if old one was worked out. Especially when rafale would have been in difficult times.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ind4Ever said:


> Now looks like MoD willing to go for 100 tejas and so can reduce the next batch order (if we go for) from 124 to 90 something jets or less . So Migs can be pulled out of service .By that time of 100 tejas or at least previously rumoured 80 in total can be done when Tejas 2 enters production .


i believe Teja is now enterming what is known as Mk1 to Mk1.5 stage where certain upgrades closer to Mk2 version may be reworked into Mk1 itself (hence Mk1.5). Certainly it makes sense if the LCA Mk1.5 at least 4 -5 Squadrons are ordered ncz then it gives the breather space for MK2 plan. I am not sure if Mk1.5 should do 1:1 replacement of Mig21. As i believe Mk1.5 should be max 5 squadrons and training purpose perhaps another 1 squadron but Mk2 should be closer to 8-10 squadrons.Thereby showing a carrot to HAL too.



Ind4Ever said:


> Except Submarine nuclear reactor . Which I guess will be drawn out from Akula . We had very detailed discussion on this before few weeks ago .


You are correct as i also assume akula 190 MW design (OPK650) but K15 caught my fancy perhaps bcz of size (its smaller) K15 reactor is rumoured to be at 50MW so its 3 units together powering upto 150 MW. But then thats for a different thread so i will stop about that here only.

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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> i believe Teja is now enterming what is known as Mk1 to Mk1.5 stage where certain upgrades closer to Mk2 version may be reworked into Mk1 itself (hence Mk1.5). Certainly it makes sense if the LCA Mk1.5 at least 4 -5 Squadrons are ordered ncz then it gives the breather space for MK2 plan. I am not sure if Mk1.5 should do 1:1 replacement of Mig21. As i believe Mk1.5 should be max 5 squadrons and training purpose perhaps another 1 squadron but Mk2 should be closer to 8-10 squadrons.Thereby showing a carrot to HAL too.
> 
> 
> You are correct as i also assume akula 190 MW design (OPK650) but K15 caught my fancy perhaps bcz of size (its smaller) K15 reactor is rumoured to be at 50MW so its 3 units together powering upto 150 MW. But then thats for a different thread so i will stop about that here only.


How did I missed that. Thanks man . I forgot to mention a point of ManPar . 
These are his words : Tejas can be inducted in numbers. But not IN CURRENT configuration but with improvements ." 
 I was wondering what me ment by that . May be 1.5 is the answer as we already tested satisfied with Tejas performance. That's a lot of confidence boost . Wonder what it might be . By few weeks we can expect some clear picture I guess . And he said it too that in few weeks clear details will be available  

And ya SSN reactor is done deal . We will go for Akula blue print when it's avail with in the country . Now we will get second hand old SSN as 2nd lease which will be for full patrol duty and chakra can be utilised for study .Let's leave it here . And focus on decoding our PM/DM mind 

French might agree to 30% offset for Make in India initiative !!! Indian and French source . 

As reported before talks have already began in France . Between Hollade , Hal officials , dassault official, PMO MoD... Some insight into the deal .... !!! 

The over USD 6 billion deal for 36 Rafale jets is likely to have a 30 percent offset clause valued at nearly USD 2 billion that the Indian private industry will be eyeing.

Even though speculation had risen whether the clause would be included in the government to government deal, Indian as well as French sources said that there will at least 30 per cent offset clause.




Representational image. AFP

Offset policy was first introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2005, under which a foreign company has to invest back a portion of the deal into India.

The DPP, 2013 indicates that the objective of the Defence Offset Policy is to leverage capital acquisitions to develop Indian defence industry by fostering development of internationally competitive enterprises.

It also aims to do it by augmenting capacity for research, design and development related to defence products and services besides encouraging development of synergistic sectors like civil aerospace and internal security.

The offset clause will work out to be around USD 2 billion. During the government to government talks, the offset obligation will also be finalised, defence sources said.

They pegged the deal at over USD 6 billion including the cost of the 36 aircraft, armament and spares.

Sources pointed out that previous government to government sale route also had offset clauses.

"The private sector will substantially gain from the offset part of the Rafale deal," a senior executive of a leading corporate group said.

The criticism against the government to government deal between India and France for 36 Rafale jets was that it does not bring manufacturing and jobs to India.

Sources said the government is likely to insist Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale, to rope in the Indian private sector, a global chain supplier to Dassault and its associates.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had yesterday insisted that the deal for 36 Rafale jets does not mean that 'Make in Indian' programme has been set aside.

He said everything will depend on the quantum of the jets that India would eventually be interested in, besides the 36 and the terms and conditions agreed to once the negotiations start.

ONE THING IS FOR SURE . WE ARE MOVING FROM LEAN AND MEAN AIRFORCE TO BIGGER AND BETTER AIRFORCE .. 

Remember these words ? 

"We will make Indian Armed forces in such away that any country must not dare to look into our eyes " 

From defensive to offensive defence !!!

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## The_Sidewinder

Ind4Ever said:


> @The_Sidewinder  wtf ? Roller coaster ride once again



I say bring it on. There wont be just 36.Rafales to be honest. IAF is not a rag tag airforce that GOI will cap such a high.end aircraft to just two squadrons. When DM talked about .other aircrafts as options, that to keep Franch govt on their toes. No sane govt will let go any opportunity to sell such a high no of highly priced birds. A larger export order only enhances Rafales reputation. GoI will aqcuire minimum 5-6 squadrons. LCAs will make up rest of the no for now. Dassault were playing a hardball on TOT issue which is a masnufacturers wet dream, its golden goose. Now that opportunity seems gone. So dessault will try hard again to gain the leaverage through MAKE IN INDIA. I can bet a fortune on it.
Bro Rafales are coming & they will come in numbers. 

About Tejas Improvement, a better radar with minimum 150 km range is a must. By commiting Rafale to a private player, it opens up opportunity for setting up.additional assembly line. We can certainly buy LCA Mki in quantity (100+) & letter upgrade them to Mkii status. With lower rcs & better weapons package, it can certainly be a game changer over Indian skies.

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## Thorough Pro

after 10 years of painful pregnancy punctuated by periodic spells of euphoria and orgasm the out come is just a silent stinky whiz of air. LOL

Poor Indian government don't have money to afford the mother of all defence deals, and poor Indian fan boys tch tch tch


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## Dillinger

Ind4Ever said:


> Let's keep heli carrier out for moment . But how are you sure IN not interested in Rafale M for our next flat top carrier ? When Indian Navy have legally asked for RFI on Rafale M from dassault ? Which they have already submitted reply with IN recently if I may recall or if I am not wrong during later half of January 2015 ... CONFORMED BY DASSAULT chief himself.
> 
> *Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant*
> 
> 
> Dassault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference that the French company has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter.
> 
> Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant
> 
> Mig 29 K is a capable and most successful candidate too. But when IN can get more capable jet like Rafale M what's wrong with that. As of now 36 Rafale will be bought by IAF . Anyway we will have infrastructure for its maintenance purpose in India for sure . So logistics will be taken care of .
> 
> 
> Wonder how you claim Rafale won't be operated on Vishal when Navy shown keen interest on them . Later conformed by assault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference.



I never said that the IN is "not interested" in the Rafale; I stated that it would not be feasible for the IN to operate the Rafale-M in light of the fact that they already have 2 fixed wing combatants (with the the N-LCA yet to be inducted) in their carrier air-wing. So, as I said, the IN will either have to stick to the Mig-29K for the foreseeable future (in which case the Vishal will have to be a hybrid- STOBAR+CATOBAR- design much like the projected Chinese carrier) or the IN will have to undertake an expensive restructuring of the air-wing; it is because of these reasons that I am quite sure that the IN will not end up operating the Rafale of its carriers. The forces have issued many RFIs over the years, but interest in a platform hardly translates to any modicum of surety that the platform will be acquired.

At the moment that IN's budget leaves no space for additional capex, furthermore, the IN has its own share of committed liabilities as well as projected acquisitions (since my job tilts me towards the financial angle I would enjoin you to take a look at their books too) and thus is in no position to strain said budget in the foreseeable future. 

Now does this mean that a restructuring of the air-wing is impossible? No, it very well could occur, but the IN is only likely to pay the attendant price if the reward is similarly disproportionately large- a generation jump in the deployed platform.

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## The_Sidewinder

Thorough Pro said:


> after 10 years of painful pregnancy punctuated by periodic spells of euphoria and orgasm the out come is just a silent stinky whiz of air. LOL
> 
> Poor Indian government don't have money to afford the mother of all defence deals, and poor Indian fan boys tch tch tch



lol... 

No wonder you are happy.


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## uparyupari

janon said:


> As I said, they also offered to transfer the entire M2K production likne to India in 2001. It was our stupidity not to grab the offer with both hands.
> 
> Your statement that Dassault hasn't agreed to manufacture its aircrafts anywhere else "in it entire history" is very very wrong.
> 
> BTW, how many fighters have they produced, between the Mirage-III family and the M2K?
> 
> Seems like they have agreed to manufacture every aircraft they made since the 1960s, outside.
> 
> I know, I was talking about their 2001 offer.



You are avoiding the question. HOW many aircraft's has dassult built outside France after 1963 ? 

Offers mean NOTHING. Especially if they are designed to ensure that its too expensive for anyone to consider it seriously.



PARIKRAMA said:


> See its clear that PM Modi one on one had clearly stated that India is very interested in Rafale and would like to make the entire MMRCA tender of 189 birds purchase work. But certain complexities like
> 1. the actual cost of TOT transfer (setting up the unit and supply tie ups)
> 2. the cost of production by HAL (higher cost quoted 2.7 times French produced rafales in terms of manhours)
> 3. In ability at present to absorb certain hitech like example GaN modules in Aesa radar (Semiconductor industry maturity still not upto that level)
> 
> Thus it was very clear that previous government when they realised all this sat on the process for 2+ years as they realised that the potential is immense under 50% offset but perhaps the present defence aero complex may still need more maturity to undertake such a epic technological upliftment required for Rafale.
> 
> Translated all this would add cost to Rafale production in India by HAL under MMRCA.
> So the alternative is to do away MMRCA and perhaps produce Rafale under Make in India via tie up with Dassault thru G2G route.
> 
> the critical question: How will rafale produced by Reliance tie up or any private/ JV tie up would be cheaprer.
> The answer is very very simple.
> 1. offset clause would be 30% not 50% stipulated under MMRCA
> 2. TOT of critical tech would not be forced upon (straight forward drop in cost)
> 3. Most importantly it would be ASSEMBLED (via kits) in the Reliance facility (perhaps in Gujarat)
> 4. The deal may be seeing complementary positions by Ambani brothers - Mukesh taking the assembly and ANil perhaps the MRO or may bewhatever they can share together cohesively.
> 5. 30% offset means certain localisation which Dassault needs to stick through in letter and spirit (not just simulators) and here comes the push from France government to adherance and review part
> 6. Weapons package also partially would include indian partners + the MRO business.
> 
> This plan is what i believe PM Modi had clearly talked with President Hollande but without taking Reliance 's Name.
> 
> Now President Hollande was impressed with 2 points
> 1. India's wishes to buy Rafales in good numbers
> 2. It wants hollande meaning French government help as it feels Dassault keeps personal corporate interests first whereas India- france both governments think much beyond that and takes position due to strategic partnership we share together
> 
> Of course its a very good news for Hollande as now unemployment and Dassault orders would certainly mean that it is french government which saved Dassault from losing the biggest deal of its lifetime and Hollande position (political) is strengthened with such a good lucrative deal. By reciprocating to PM modi's discussion positively and nudging according to the plan, Make in India is also satisfied. IAF is also kept happy and all the tangles of MMRCA is avoided.
> 
> The above interview of Hollande very much makes me feel that this path is what the both leaders have planned.
> 
> On top cherry picking would be incase this is actually realised than rumoured Baracuda N reactor help is provided (K15 reactor) which definitely would be potentially the game changer for the N sub project for bigger subs ( this reactor is 150 MW). Not really sure if we would like that reactor help or not as Russian help is already there in 83Mw Arihant. I expect if Hollande convinces a good price route for this Make in India rafale then may be we will see 6 more scorpenes order too..
> 
> This my friend is my gut feeling. PM Modi will definitely make some Juggad and ensure 8 years of MMRCA is not wasted but perhaps custom fitted to support his make in India initiative.



G2G also means the foreign govt. politicians gets to pocket the kick back and offer Indian more sweetener to make that happen.


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## PARIKRAMA

uparyupari said:


> G2G also means the foreign govt. politicians gets to pocket the kick back and offer Indian more sweetener to make that happen.




Not really true.
You see first time when NDA came into power, the former PM Atal Behari Vajpayee (a man whom i respect a lot for his truthful nature not ideological background) wa very keen to be part of history books and he initiated a lot of things (Nuclear Pokhran, Bus travel to Pakistan, Kargil incursion by Mushraff fightback, Naming LCA Tejas, Golden Quadrilateral (a project thot by Rajiv Gandhi but Vajpayee implemented it) and famous snubbing of Modi for Raj Dharma for 2002 riots, Pravasi Bharatiya, etcetc. Even though Bangaru Laxman or George Fernandez or various other netas of BJP (like ertswhile Late Pramod Mahajan) may have indulged in personal gains the fact remains the PM Vajpayee himself remained a man of integrity and never indulged into corruption. On top he was bounded by the coalition politics yet NDA government (now or earlier both)had far less issues as compared to UPA 1 and 2.
Judging Modi's record as CM (as i was posted in Gujarat for a good time so i had read all local gujarati newspapers too), he is free from Corruption as of now. his hold over the key ministries via close friend Arun Jaitley (a lawyer) and DM Parrikar is well known (MP being IIT guy is well respected by Modi for his logical approach), means he keeps corruption taint as far from himself as possible. I do believe not all NDA MPs have an impeccable record so certainly certain cabinet and perhaps NDA MPs will behave stupidly and corrupt themselves. BUT since MOdi wants to have a bigger legacy then Vajpayee i am sure he would acoid a corruption scam regime like UPAs and hence i dont see any kickbacks or Bofors like scandal chance. Simple reason being, he is smart enough to know it is people of India who made him PM and if he is tainted Congress would make sure he does not get a second term. At present unless certain vested interests destroy NDA with communal statements and work, Modi will remain in power surely for 2 terms. The 1st term performance and patience of people will reward him 2nd term but after that is purely based on performance and perhaps lack of a opposition political leader in true sense (Raga will always remain a prince not sure if he will become king just in position or in true sense).
The only difference bcz of which ppl will feel he is corrupted or tainted or like you stating kickbacks is this cabinet would not sit on proposals forever. It will say Yes or No which is good. better have a decisive government over others who may stagnate or choke the whole policy making and paralyse the nation. So far defence sector had benefitted in 11 months. But other areas of economy as well as parliament needs urgent more attention. They have to make it work properly over adjournments and foollish gossiping of namecalling /tainting/dharnas....if we want a proper economic revival decisions have to be made with least possible delay in time and minimum corruption at all levels.

BTW Euro had a resolution under which all parties indulging in lobbying has to declare all such processes and money spent.. i highly doubt Hollande would take any kickbacks or allow his cabinet to be stained by corruption allegations. He has enough problems already domestically so its not gonna happen again.

Thus, even though your fear is correct but i doubt if it may turn out to be true. If in case it does turn out to be true then even God cannot save our country from repeated disasters brought upon by Men who got corrupted by power.


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## uparyupari

PARIKRAMA said:


> Not really true.
> You see first time when NDA came into power, the former PM Atal Behari Vajpayee (a man whom i respect a lot for his truthful nature not ideological background) wa very keen to be part of history books and he initiated a lot of things (Nuclear Pokhran, Bus travel to Pakistan, Kargil incursion by Mushraff fightback, Naming LCA Tejas, Golden Quadrilateral (a project thot by Rajiv Gandhi but Vajpayee implemented it) and famous snubbing of Modi for Raj Dharma for 2002 riots, Pravasi Bharatiya, etcetc. Even though Bangaru Laxman or George Fernandez or various other netas of BJP (like ertswhile Late Pramod Mahajan) may have indulged in personal gains the fact remains the PM Vajpayee himself remained a man of integrity and never indulged into corruption. On top he was bounded by the coalition politics yet NDA government had far less issues as compared to UPA 1 and 2.
> Judging Modi's record as CM (as i was posted in Gujarat for a good time so i had read all local gujarati newspapers too), he is free from Corruption as of now. his hold over the key ministries via close friend Arun Jaitley (a lawyer) and DM Parrikar is well known (MP being IIT guy is well respected by Modi for his logical approach), means he keeps corruption taint as far from himself as possible. I do believe not all NDA MPs have an impeccable record so certainly certain cabinet and perhaps NDA MPs will behave stupidly and corrupt themselves. BUT since MOdi wants to have a bigger legacy then Vajpayee i am sure he would acoid a corruption scam regime like UPAs and hence i dont see any kickbacks or Bofors like scandal chance. Simple reason being, he is smart enough to know it is people of India who made him PM and if he is tainted Congress would make sure he does not get a second term. At present unless certain vested interests destroy NDA with communal statements and work, Modi will remain in power surely for 2 terms. The 1st term performance and patience of people will reward him 2nd term but after that is purely based on performance and perhaps lack of a opposition political leader in true sense (Raga will always remain a prince not sure if he will become king just in position or in true sense).
> The only difference bcz of which ppl will feel he is corrupted or tainted or like you stating kickbacks is this cabinet would not sit on proposals forever. It will say Yes or No which is good. better have a decisive government over others who may stagnate or choke the whole policy making and paralyse the nation. So far defence sector had benefitted in 11 months. But other areas of economy as well as parliament needs urgent more attention. They have to make it work properly over adjournments and foollish gossiping of namecalling /tainting/dharnas....if we want a proper economic revival decisions have to be made with least possible delay in time and minimum corruption at all levels.
> 
> BTW Euro had a resolution under which all parties indulging in lobbying has to declare all such processes and money spent.. i highly doubt Hollande would take any kickbacks or allow his cabinet to be stained by corruption allegations. He has enough problems already domestically so its not gonna happen again.
> 
> Thus, even though your fear is correct but i doubt if it may turn out to be true. If in case it does turn out to be true then even God cannot save our country from repeated disasters brought upon by Men who got corrupted by power.



I did not say Modi is corrupt or will take kickback. 

I said it will provide the FOREIGN politicians to take kickback from the company and provide favours to India for giving them that opportunity.

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## PARIKRAMA

uparyupari said:


> I did not say Modi is corrupt or will take kickback.
> 
> I said it will provide the FOREIGN politicians to take kickback from the company and provide favours to India for giving them that opportunity.


Oh i replied in both sense domestically as well as foreign. French may be better to deal than other Euro or Russian counterparts. i hope your statement does not turn out to be correct...


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## skybolt



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## Ind4Ever

Breaking news on Tejas now !!! 

DM :" Jas ki maar bhi kaafi hai (Tejas packs a PUNCH) And it's better than Mig21 but has certain limits. Mig21 will be replaced with Tejas or any other single engine fighters . Pushing DRDO&HAL to induct 5/6+ SQUADRONS in the next 4/5 years . This is possible by pushing HAL to its full potential. Which we are doing now. "

However some interpreted this means impending doom for the Tejas project, A Top officials dismissed it by clarifying that the was "just keeping all options open" to make "NUMBERS " with the IAF which is down to just 34 fighters Sq when 44 needed . 

Identically the original plan was for 6 sq each for mmrca and Tejas to replace 10 squadrons of Mig21&Mig29 . 

Parrikar said "In next 4/5 years we can add about 6 sq, if we push HAL , Which am doing" ( Cracking the wipe  ) 

Tejas MK2 with more powerful specs ll only enters service from 2021 . 

So DM pushing for Dr do and HAL to fire all its cylinders when country really needed them . Which is now. Or else We ll look for some other single engine fighter to fill the gap to replace Mig27 (May be Gripin)

For Tejas it's months not years 

(TYPICAL TOI CRITICS with half baked potato knowledge on tejas for misinterpreting DMs comment  ) Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said “some other single-engine, lighter fighter” other than the home-grown Tejas (above) could also be considered for a "Make in India" project to replace the obsolete MiG-21s.
Text resize:AAA

NEW DELHI: India's defence R&D establishment will have to fire on all cylinders to fast-track the meandering Tejas light combat aircraft, which is still not fully operational or combat ready, if it does not want the Narendra Modi government to critically re-examine the entire project. 

The Tejas project, in fact, may even get some competition in the light-weight fighter category. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said "some other single-engine, lighter fighter" other than the home-grown Tejas could also be considered for a "Make in India" project to replace the obsolete MiG-21s. 

Restricting the acquisition of expensive twin-engine French Rafale fighters to just 36 for now, instead of the original plan for 126 MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft), Parrikar stressed he was trying to plug operational gaps in airpower by improving serviceability of "heavy-weight" Sukhoi-30MKIs as well as "pushing" the DRDO-HAL combine to deliver Tejas faster. 

*READ ALSO: Tejas achieves another accomplishment in Ladakh *

"Don't compare Rafale, a top-end fighter, to MiG-21s, which we will phase out in about six to 10 years. The replacement for MiG-21s will be Tejas or some other single-engine, lighter aircraft. Tejas ki maar bhi kaafi hai (Tejas packs a punch) and it's much better than a MiG-21, but has certain limitations," said Parrikar. 

Though some interpreted this to mean impending doom for the Tejas project, a top official dismissed it by clarifying the government was "just keeping all options open" to make "numbers" with IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons when 44 are needed. "There could be scope for a single-engine fighter, which would be much cheaper than Rafale, somewhere between the capabilities of Rafale and Tejas," he said. 






Incidentally, the original plan was that six squadrons each of MMRCA and Tejas would replace the existing 10 Mig-21 and four MiG-27 squadrons. Parrikar, on his part, said, "In the next four to five years, we can add about six LCA squadrons if we push HAL, which I am doing." 

DRDO-HAL will certainly need to be pushed on the Tejas project since it's critical for self-reliance in defence production. The first Tejas was handed over to IAF on January 17 but it was in "initial operational configuration (IOC)", which signifies its airworthy but not combat-ready. The pilot training and maintenance manuals are also still not ready, delaying its actual induction into IAF. 

*READ ALSO: India finally gets indigenous LCA Tejas *

The fighter's final operational clearance (FOC), with integration of all weapons like guns, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well mid-air refuelling capability, is likely to be delayed beyond the re-revised deadline of December 2015. 

The Tejas Mark-II version which the IAF actually wants — with more powerful engines, airframe changes, weight and drag reduction — will begin to come in only by 2021 or so. So, Parrikar will need to do a lot of pushing if he wants swifter deliveries of the multi-role fighters.

For LCA Tejas, it’s now about months, not decades - TOI Mobile | The Times of India Mobile Site

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## PARIKRAMA

*Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - Mannu Pubby*

NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.
*
Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign up an Indian partner and form a joint venture company in which the local firm could own up to 51 per cent stake and this firm could execute the contract to supply the remaining planes.*

The sources insisted that these were initial discussions and there was no certainty a final plan would have these contours.

*The Indian partner, according to these discussions, would not be restricted to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), potentially opening up the field for private players to step into the lucrative defence and aerospace business. A consortium approach, in which a group of Indian private companies come together with HAL to constitute the Indian ownership, was also being spoken of during these discussions, the sources said, adding that the entire plan was nebulous and could undergo major changes.*

The matter will be taken forward after Prime Minister Narendra Modi returns from his foreign visit, the sources said. They requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The selection of Dassault to supply 126 Rafale fighters to the Indian Air Force took place during the UPA regime in 2012, but the deal got bogged down by controversies and political indecision. After weeks of uncertainty and amid intense speculation that the BJPled administration could even cancel the contract, Modi, during a visit to France last week, pulled a surprise and signed the purchase of 36 planes off-the-shelf in a direct government-to-government deal, effectively junking the old UPA deal while retaining the vendor.

However, the official announcement last week made no mention about what happens to the remaining planes, prompting speculation in some quarters whether the government could look at fresh competitive bidding.

But sources said the thinking in South Block was that it did not make sense to buy planes from a new vendor as that would saddle the Air Force with a 'mix and match fleet' and having to operate multiple platforms, which was cumbersome and operationally inefficient. Besides a fresh competitive bidding scenario would take years, severely delaying the Indian Air Force's plans to raise its flying strength up to 42 fighter squadrons.

This will effectively rule out the possibility of fresh competitive bidding for the remaining contract, which was also indicated by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Monday when he said a government-to-government route was better to acquire strategic defence platforms rather than competitive,global bidding.

*NUMBER COULD BE REVISITED*

*Sources said that while the original requirement of 126 fighters for the air force stands, this number could be revisited in the coming days after a reassessment. A higher number of planes could encourage the French side, which could otherwise have reservations on ceding the controlling stake in the Indian joint venture, to set up a production base for the jets. Such an approach could counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer and production capabilities. Going about the remainder of the contract though the joint venture route could give the Indian private sector a chance to partake of the government's defence spending and develop manufacturing expertise in an area that has largely been the preserve of staterun firms.*

The scrapping of the old Rafale deal, along with the cancellations of similar projects, is an indication that the L1, or lowest bidder based competitive bidding process, which was initiated by the UPA regime is on the way out. Some defence experts say the lengthy process of global competition has led to the stalling of many critical military acquisitions after these got bogged down by accusations of manipulations in testing or discrepancies in commercial proposals.

Officials also say that the view within the government is that the L1 system - choosing the cheapest product after it passes the basic technical evaluation - is not ideally suited to acquiring strategic and cutting edge systems for the military.

While the L1 process was promoted by the UPA government, most military acquisition plans did not see the light of day under the process. These include two attempts to buy light helicopters for the army, a proposal to purchase aerial refuelers for the air force and plans to acquire much-needed artillery systems.

The trend to cancel or do away with projects under competitive bidding continues with the NDA government with the cancelling of the light helicopter contract last year that saw Eurocopter and Kamov making it to the final zone. Most mega projects cleared by the UPA - C-17 transporters, P-8I planes for the Navy, C-130J special operations aircraft - were government-to-government purchases.

The last large tender cleared by competitive bidding was to purchase trainer aircraft from Swiss firm Pilatus in 2012. However, that too ran into trouble as the BJP government reduced the order and gave a large chunk of it to HAL.


Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - The Economic Times


@Ind4Ever 
See what i discussed with you yesterday the same story is being now said...

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## uparyupari

Unless dassault can show how its going to reinvest 30% offset for the 36 Rafale purchase, the deal for 36 Rafale itself might not move forward 

People are spinning fantasies under the guise of "news".


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## Ind4Ever

Dillinger said:


> I never said that the IN is "not interested" in the Rafale; I stated that it would not be feasible for the IN to operate the Rafale-M in light of the fact that they already have 2 fixed wing combatants (with the the N-LCA yet to be inducted) in their carrier air-wing. So, as I said, the IN will either have to stick to the Mig-29K for the foreseeable future (in which case the Vishal will have to be a hybrid- STOBAR+CATOBAR- design much like the projected Chinese carrier) or the IN will have to undertake an expensive restructuring of the air-wing; it is because of these reasons that I am quite sure that the IN will not end up operating the Rafale of its carriers. The forces have issued many RFIs over the years, but interest in a platform hardly translates to any modicum of surety that the platform will be acquired.
> 
> At the moment that IN's budget leaves no space for additional capex, furthermore, the IN has its own share of committed liabilities as well as projected acquisitions (since my job tilts me towards the financial angle I would enjoin you to take a look at their books too) and thus is in no position to strain said budget in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Now does this mean that a restructuring of the air-wing is impossible? No, it very well could occur, but the IN is only likely to pay the attendant price if the reward is similarly disproportionately large- a generation jump in the deployed platform.



I respect your opinion. But this is your opinion which may not be true. Because operating an carrier itself a costly affairs. That too we will operate three new carriers . Vikramaditya, Vikrant - which will have mig29 K for time being and LCA in a mix (near future) But it doesn't mean we will keep operating these two aircrafts alone for 3rd A/C . That's 10 years we are talking about . From there the lifetime will he about 30-40( which IN will be willing to operate) And so we won't be using Tejas Mk1 and Mig29K . Instead we will go for Tejas MK2 and Rafale M which is more futuristic for futuristic A/C . Please don't close the loop with funds . As far as IN is concerned it will be our top most priority(from now on) . 6 billion for 36 Rafale(2015/16) and 2.5 billion for 45 Mig29K (2008/9) . 1 Rafale can do/Carry/Perform twice that of Mig 29K. 

Mig29K - 4000 T 
Rafale M - 8.5T(less than AF variant 9T)

Mig29K - 2000 km
RafaleM - 3500 km 

And in operational capabilities Migs are no match for RafaleM . So for our future Aircraft carries at least for the next two we will have RafaleM&Tej2 as our main stay . While 2 A/C with Mig29K&tej 1 combo . 

Anyway you are entitled to ur . As you think IN will go for low cost fighter since u r in this field . But I think IN won't think twice to get RafaleM flying from its INS Vishal most prestigious project like Arihant. Firepower will cost more . You get what you pay for. When our economy is set to expand from medium to ultra large for the next 20 years spending 6 billion won't be a big deal for IN . Each year one bill is what we will do . Even with IAF latest order. Which is more than possible in economic front.


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## PARIKRAMA

Btw this is what Prasun K Sengupta believes about the following

Rafele

Only 36 will be imported off-the-shelf. 
Balance will be supplied in kits for final assembly in India by a consortium 
Consortium likely to include Reliance & Mahindra 
Production rate of 14 per annum. 
LCA MK2

HAL never had anything to do with R & D on Tejas MRCA. This was, is & will remain ADA’s responsibility. 
Tejas Mk2’s R & D calls for a totally redesigned airframe with some major changes to the wings & air-intakes, it will involve a totally all-new flight-test/certification regime lasting some 2,000 flights.
If two Tejas Mk2 prototypes are made available by 2018, airworthiness certification can at best be achieved by 2021
Series-production by HAL can begin in only 2022 at best & first fully-equipped squadron will be commissioned in only 2025.

Super Sukhoi Su30MKI

Super Sukhoi upgrade cannot proceed at very fast rate per month wise. 
If work starts in 2018, it will take more than 2 decades to complete the fleet-wide upgrade. 

FGFA

FGFA too won’t become available till 2025.

Again these are his views but his opinions seems a bit more realistic in nature. Perhaps we could assume and presume many things but always with a pinch of salt

@Ind4Ever - PSK even named Mahindra and said consortium. That may save BJP led NDA from favouritism to Ambani brothers. I guess when i said reliance or other pvt entities/JV i did nt think about mahindra but Mahindra Aersopace inclusion makes it a good consortium (if true of course).


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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - Mannu Pubby*
> 
> NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.
> *
> Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign up an Indian partner and form a joint venture company in which the local firm could own up to 51 per cent stake and this firm could execute the contract to supply the remaining planes.*
> 
> The sources insisted that these were initial discussions and there was no certainty a final plan would have these contours.
> 
> *The Indian partner, according to these discussions, would not be restricted to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), potentially opening up the field for private players to step into the lucrative defence and aerospace business. A consortium approach, in which a group of Indian private companies come together with HAL to constitute the Indian ownership, was also being spoken of during these discussions, the sources said, adding that the entire plan was nebulous and could undergo major changes.*
> 
> The matter will be taken forward after Prime Minister Narendra Modi returns from his foreign visit, the sources said. They requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.
> 
> The selection of Dassault to supply 126 Rafale fighters to the Indian Air Force took place during the UPA regime in 2012, but the deal got bogged down by controversies and political indecision. After weeks of uncertainty and amid intense speculation that the BJPled administration could even cancel the contract, Modi, during a visit to France last week, pulled a surprise and signed the purchase of 36 planes off-the-shelf in a direct government-to-government deal, effectively junking the old UPA deal while retaining the vendor.
> 
> However, the official announcement last week made no mention about what happens to the remaining planes, prompting speculation in some quarters whether the government could look at fresh competitive bidding.
> 
> But sources said the thinking in South Block was that it did not make sense to buy planes from a new vendor as that would saddle the Air Force with a 'mix and match fleet' and having to operate multiple platforms, which was cumbersome and operationally inefficient. Besides a fresh competitive bidding scenario would take years, severely delaying the Indian Air Force's plans to raise its flying strength up to 42 fighter squadrons.
> 
> This will effectively rule out the possibility of fresh competitive bidding for the remaining contract, which was also indicated by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Monday when he said a government-to-government route was better to acquire strategic defence platforms rather than competitive,global bidding.
> 
> *NUMBER COULD BE REVISITED*
> 
> *Sources said that while the original requirement of 126 fighters for the air force stands, this number could be revisited in the coming days after a reassessment. A higher number of planes could encourage the French side, which could otherwise have reservations on ceding the controlling stake in the Indian joint venture, to set up a production base for the jets. Such an approach could counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer and production capabilities. Going about the remainder of the contract though the joint venture route could give the Indian private sector a chance to partake of the government's defence spending and develop manufacturing expertise in an area that has largely been the preserve of staterun firms.*
> 
> The scrapping of the old Rafale deal, along with the cancellations of similar projects, is an indication that the L1, or lowest bidder based competitive bidding process, which was initiated by the UPA regime is on the way out. Some defence experts say the lengthy process of global competition has led to the stalling of many critical military acquisitions after these got bogged down by accusations of manipulations in testing or discrepancies in commercial proposals.
> 
> Officials also say that the view within the government is that the L1 system - choosing the cheapest product after it passes the basic technical evaluation - is not ideally suited to acquiring strategic and cutting edge systems for the military.
> 
> While the L1 process was promoted by the UPA government, most military acquisition plans did not see the light of day under the process. These include two attempts to buy light helicopters for the army, a proposal to purchase aerial refuelers for the air force and plans to acquire much-needed artillery systems.
> 
> The trend to cancel or do away with projects under competitive bidding continues with the NDA government with the cancelling of the light helicopter contract last year that saw Eurocopter and Kamov making it to the final zone. Most mega projects cleared by the UPA - C-17 transporters, P-8I planes for the Navy, C-130J special operations aircraft - were government-to-government purchases.
> 
> The last large tender cleared by competitive bidding was to purchase trainer aircraft from Swiss firm Pilatus in 2012. However, that too ran into trouble as the BJP government reduced the order and gave a large chunk of it to HAL.
> 
> 
> Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - The Economic Times
> 
> 
> @Ind4Ever
> See what i discussed with you yesterday the same story is being now said...



And Mr PM and Mr.ManPar thinks we can't crack their codes  So as we thought we might increase its number upto 180+ for airforce alone 36+126+64 .....+ 45 Navy 




PARIKRAMA said:


> *Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - Mannu Pubby*
> 
> NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.
> *
> Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign up an Indian partner and form a joint venture company in which the local firm could own up to 51 per cent stake and this firm could execute the contract to supply the remaining planes.*
> 
> The sources insisted that these were initial discussions and there was no certainty a final plan would have these contours.
> 
> *The Indian partner, according to these discussions, would not be restricted to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), potentially opening up the field for private players to step into the lucrative defence and aerospace business. A consortium approach, in which a group of Indian private companies come together with HAL to constitute the Indian ownership, was also being spoken of during these discussions, the sources said, adding that the entire plan was nebulous and could undergo major changes.*
> 
> The matter will be taken forward after Prime Minister Narendra Modi returns from his foreign visit, the sources said. They requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.
> 
> The selection of Dassault to supply 126 Rafale fighters to the Indian Air Force took place during the UPA regime in 2012, but the deal got bogged down by controversies and political indecision. After weeks of uncertainty and amid intense speculation that the BJPled administration could even cancel the contract, Modi, during a visit to France last week, pulled a surprise and signed the purchase of 36 planes off-the-shelf in a direct government-to-government deal, effectively junking the old UPA deal while retaining the vendor.
> 
> However, the official announcement last week made no mention about what happens to the remaining planes, prompting speculation in some quarters whether the government could look at fresh competitive bidding.
> 
> But sources said the thinking in South Block was that it did not make sense to buy planes from a new vendor as that would saddle the Air Force with a 'mix and match fleet' and having to operate multiple platforms, which was cumbersome and operationally inefficient. Besides a fresh competitive bidding scenario would take years, severely delaying the Indian Air Force's plans to raise its flying strength up to 42 fighter squadrons.
> 
> This will effectively rule out the possibility of fresh competitive bidding for the remaining contract, which was also indicated by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Monday when he said a government-to-government route was better to acquire strategic defence platforms rather than competitive,global bidding.
> 
> *NUMBER COULD BE REVISITED*
> 
> *Sources said that while the original requirement of 126 fighters for the air force stands, this number could be revisited in the coming days after a reassessment. A higher number of planes could encourage the French side, which could otherwise have reservations on ceding the controlling stake in the Indian joint venture, to set up a production base for the jets. Such an approach could counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer and production capabilities. Going about the remainder of the contract though the joint venture route could give the Indian private sector a chance to partake of the government's defence spending and develop manufacturing expertise in an area that has largely been the preserve of staterun firms.*
> 
> The scrapping of the old Rafale deal, along with the cancellations of similar projects, is an indication that the L1, or lowest bidder based competitive bidding process, which was initiated by the UPA regime is on the way out. Some defence experts say the lengthy process of global competition has led to the stalling of many critical military acquisitions after these got bogged down by accusations of manipulations in testing or discrepancies in commercial proposals.
> 
> Officials also say that the view within the government is that the L1 system - choosing the cheapest product after it passes the basic technical evaluation - is not ideally suited to acquiring strategic and cutting edge systems for the military.
> 
> While the L1 process was promoted by the UPA government, most military acquisition plans did not see the light of day under the process. These include two attempts to buy light helicopters for the army, a proposal to purchase aerial refuelers for the air force and plans to acquire much-needed artillery systems.
> 
> The trend to cancel or do away with projects under competitive bidding continues with the NDA government with the cancelling of the light helicopter contract last year that saw Eurocopter and Kamov making it to the final zone. Most mega projects cleared by the UPA - C-17 transporters, P-8I planes for the Navy, C-130J special operations aircraft - were government-to-government purchases.
> 
> The last large tender cleared by competitive bidding was to purchase trainer aircraft from Swiss firm Pilatus in 2012. However, that too ran into trouble as the BJP government reduced the order and gave a large chunk of it to HAL.
> 
> 
> Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - The Economic Times
> 
> 
> @Ind4Ever
> See what i discussed with you yesterday the same story is being now said...



And Mr PM and Mr.ManPar thinks we can't crack their codes  So as we thought we might increase its number upto 180+ for airforce alone 36+126+64 .....+ 45 Navy 




PARIKRAMA said:


> Btw this is what Prasun K Sengupta believes about the following
> 
> Rafele
> 
> Only 36 will be imported off-the-shelf.
> Balance will be supplied in kits for final assembly in India by a consortium
> Consortium likely to include Reliance & Mahindra
> Production rate of 14 per annum.
> LCA MK2
> 
> HAL never had anything to do with R & D on Tejas MRCA. This was, is & will remain ADA’s responsibility.
> Tejas Mk2’s R & D calls for a totally redesigned airframe with some major changes to the wings & air-intakes, it will involve a totally all-new flight-test/certification regime lasting some 2,000 flights.
> If two Tejas Mk2 prototypes are made available by 2018, airworthiness certification can at best be achieved by 2021
> Series-production by HAL can begin in only 2022 at best & first fully-equipped squadron will be commissioned in only 2025.
> 
> Super Sukhoi Su30MKI
> 
> Super Sukhoi upgrade cannot proceed at very fast rate per month wise.
> If work starts in 2018, it will take more than 2 decades to complete the fleet-wide upgrade.
> 
> FGFA
> 
> FGFA too won’t become available till 2025.
> 
> Again these are his views but his opinions seems a bit more realistic in nature. Perhaps we could assume and presume many things but always with a pinch of salt
> 
> @Ind4Ever - PSK even named Mahindra and said consortium. That may save BJP led NDA from favouritism to Ambani brothers. I guess when i said reliance or other pvt entities/JV i did nt think about mahindra but Mahindra Aersopace inclusion makes it a good consortium (if true of course).



He is right. DM also said the same just yesterday . Tejas MK2 will be inducted from 2021 only . And till the MK1 will be inducted upto 5/6 squadrons in 4/5 years . So Tejas 2 will be a very different fighter nearly matching MMRCA non stealth configuration with single engine. And so it will take time . 

And on other aircraft it will take lots of time to start production like AMCA/FGFA/SupeeSukoi . So we must have to go for more Made in India Rafale for two reasons. 1) we don't have other choice as all projects are stuck between 6-9 years . We have to replace Mig21 and 27s in the next 6-9 years . 2) Due to our threat perception eastern front is very alarming . So its not the time to looking for cost effective solutions rather than Capacity and capabilities build up. Rafale will give whole new dimension for the IAF if are to go after Eastern Neighbour . Rafale will be an Alien technology for them who use Russian's and this will us a upper hand to match their capabilities even with less numbers as far as number parity is concerned .... 

WE need rafale. And this is very expected move . Good we cancelled MMRCA which went into infinity loop . Now we can move ahead with private players for which french wr batting for a very long time . AWSOME GAME PLAN

Mean while we will add current mk2 break thru in mk1 making it 1.5 version as parikar said. WITH IMPROVEMENTS . So we can induct in large numbers by satisfying IAF requirements ...

Bring it on Biatch

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## doublemaster

PARIKRAMA said:


> Not really true.
> You see first time when NDA came into power, the former PM Atal Behari Vajpayee (a man whom i respect a lot for his truthful nature not ideological background) wa very keen to be part of history books and he initiated a lot of things (Nuclear Pokhran, Bus travel to Pakistan, Kargil incursion by Mushraff fightback, Naming LCA Tejas, Golden Quadrilateral (a project thot by Rajiv Gandhi but Vajpayee implemented it) and famous snubbing of Modi for Raj Dharma for 2002 riots, Pravasi Bharatiya, etcetc. Even though Bangaru Laxman or George Fernandez or various other netas of BJP (like ertswhile Late Pramod Mahajan) may have indulged in personal gains the fact remains the PM Vajpayee himself remained a man of integrity and never indulged into corruption. On top he was bounded by the coalition politics yet NDA government (now or earlier both)had far less issues as compared to UPA 1 and 2.
> Judging Modi's record as CM (as i was posted in Gujarat for a good time so i had read all local gujarati newspapers too), he is free from Corruption as of now. his hold over the key ministries via close friend Arun Jaitley (a lawyer) and DM Parrikar is well known (MP being IIT guy is well respected by Modi for his logical approach), means he keeps corruption taint as far from himself as possible. I do believe not all NDA MPs have an impeccable record so certainly certain cabinet and perhaps NDA MPs will behave stupidly and corrupt themselves. BUT since MOdi wants to have a bigger legacy then Vajpayee i am sure he would acoid a corruption scam regime like UPAs and hence i dont see any kickbacks or Bofors like scandal chance. Simple reason being, he is smart enough to know it is people of India who made him PM and if he is tainted Congress would make sure he does not get a second term. At present unless certain vested interests destroy NDA with communal statements and work, Modi will remain in power surely for 2 terms. The 1st term performance and patience of people will reward him 2nd term but after that is purely based on performance and perhaps lack of a opposition political leader in true sense (Raga will always remain a prince not sure if he will become king just in position or in true sense).
> The only difference bcz of which ppl will feel he is corrupted or tainted or like you stating kickbacks is this cabinet would not sit on proposals forever. It will say Yes or No which is good. better have a decisive government over others who may stagnate or choke the whole policy making and paralyse the nation. So far defence sector had benefitted in 11 months. But other areas of economy as well as parliament needs urgent more attention. They have to make it work properly over adjournments and foollish gossiping of namecalling /tainting/dharnas....if we want a proper economic revival decisions have to be made with least possible delay in time and minimum corruption at all levels.
> 
> BTW Euro had a resolution under which all parties indulging in lobbying has to declare all such processes and money spent.. i highly doubt Hollande would take any kickbacks or allow his cabinet to be stained by corruption allegations. He has enough problems already domestically so its not gonna happen again.
> 
> Thus, even though your fear is correct but i doubt if it may turn out to be true. If in case it does turn out to be true then even God cannot save our country from repeated disasters brought upon by Men who got corrupted by power.



Modi may not use the corruption directly but he may use it indirectly. I can not digest the idea that he is not corrupt, Amount of money used in election itself is the proof that money had definitely come from wrong ways. I do agree that, he may not get the kickbacks from defence deal directly but his problem is he can do anything for his popularity, spend any amount for his popularity. (In this sense MMS was far better, he was having more respectful life, he never cared about his popularity, he never got direct kickbacks like Vajapayee).

Just look at this defence deal, what was the amount committed for 126 rafale? 15B as said by Parikar. (Do we need to consider Rupee was much stronger that time that we would have paid much lesser?), This included manufacturing in India. It is possible that french might have agreed to Manufacturing in India just because they were not able sell, also Sarkozy popularity as good "Sales man" was in trouble. It is also possible that India was more stricter this time so that we are not cheated again (like it had happned during Rajiv era for manufacturing mirrage in India) we will never know what is the truth about why there was delay. Whatever is the case this deal is really hard to achieve and would benefit India in long run. but look at the way current deal is handled. We have not received much discount even after removing manufacture in India, (Also for India it has to pay more because of rupee value now). Also, if this clause was removed there were other fighters was available to sell "ready to fly" basis.

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## uparyupari

doublemaster said:


> Modi may not use the corruption directly but he may use it indirectly. I can not digest the idea that he is not corrupt, Amount of money used in election itself is the proof that money had definitely come from wrong ways. I do agree that, he may not get the kickbacks from defence deal directly but his problem is he can do anything for his popularity, spend any amount for his popularity. (In this sense MMS was far better, he was having more respectful life, he never cared about his popularity, he never got direct kickbacks like Vajapayee).
> 
> Just look at this defence deal, what was the amount committed for 126 rafale? 15B as said by Parikar. (Do we need to consider Rupee was much stronger that time that we would have paid much lesser?), This included manufacturing in India. It is possible that french might have agreed to Manufacturing in India just because they were not able sell, also Sarkozy popularity as good "Sales man" was in trouble. It is also possible that India was more stricter this time so that we are not cheated again (like it had happned during Rajiv era for manufacturing mirrage in India) we will never know what is the truth about why there was delay. Whatever is the case this deal is really hard to achieve and would benefit India in long run. but look at the way current deal is handled. We have not received much discount even after removing manufacture in India, (Also for India it has to pay more because of rupee value now). Also, if this clause was removed there were other fighters was available to sell "ready to fly" basis.



Why not open a new thread on "Political funding " and discover the truth ?


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## janon

uparyupari said:


> You are avoiding the question. HOW many aircraft's has dassult built outside France after 1963 ?


Your statement was not whether any aircrafts have been built - you said they never agreed to do so, and that too in their entire history. In fact they have taken the initiative and offered it themselves.


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## uparyupari

janon said:


> Your statement was not whether any aircrafts have been built - you said they never agreed to do so, and that too in their entire history. In fact they have taken the initiative and offered it themselves.



I subsequently said "good catch". The current fact is that in recent history, they have always resisted transferring technology and has made offers to do so at an unreasonable price. Their entire offer of ToT was considered uneconomical since 1963. That shows their intent.


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## doublemaster

uparyupari said:


> I subsequently said "good catch". The current fact is that in recent history, they have always resisted transferring technology and has made offers to do so at an unreasonable price. Their entire offer of ToT was considered uneconomical since 1963. That shows their intent.


Still, they committed that to India in 2007 for 15B-126


uparyupari said:


> Why not open a new thread on "Political funding " and discover the truth ?



Sir, I was just replying to the post where corruption and kickbacks were being talked.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Ajai Shukla says


In addition to Rafale, India could also buy light fighter to replace MiG-21: Parrikar
_MoD says it could bring in company other than HAL to build fighter in India_
_This is the first time an official has revealed the amount Dassault had quoted for 126 Rafales. Media speculation had favoured a figure of $15-18 billion [up to 30]. Parrikar’s revelation of Rs 90,000 crore come to about $15 billion._
_More than once, Parrikar referred to the Rafale’s capability for delivering weapons on deep-lying strategic targets --- his reference to a “strategic purchase” apparently hinting at a nuclear delivery role._
_“Rafale is a strategic purchase and should never have gone through an RfP. These important decisions need to be taken at government-to-government levels. Modiji took the decision; I back it up”, the defence minister said._
_“The penetration capability of this aircraft (Rafale) is 1,000-1,100 kilometres. The other [IAF] aircraft penetration range is 300-450 kilometres. So we get double the penetration,” said Parrikar, again referring to deep strike capability._
_
Broadsword: In addition to Rafale, India could also buy light fighter to replace MiG-21: Parrikar
_
@Ind4Ever As ajai shukla had commented even though it is inline with what we have discussed and i wrote, somehow i am feeling a bit sad. This guy keeps changing position too quickly from F35 to EF. So as i said earlier take every info with a pinch of salt

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## uparyupari

doublemaster said:


> Still, they committed that to India in 2007 for 15B-126
> 
> Sir, I was just replying to the post where corruption and kickbacks were being talked.



Their commitment is not worth the paper it is written on. Russians found that out the hard way with mistral. 

Indians realized it when the cost spiralled out of control. 

Political funding need not come from "kickbacks". Political funding is TAX FREE in India. So its smarter to contribute to a party and gain political influence than pay that money as tax to the govt. No need to call me sir.


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## doublemaster

uparyupari said:


> Their commitment is not worth the paper it is written on. Russians found that out the hard way with mistral.
> 
> Indians realized it when the cost spiralled out of control.
> 
> Political funding need not come from "kickbacks". Political funding is TAX FREE in India. So its smarter to contribute to a party and gain political influence than pay that money as tax to the govt. No need to call me sir.



Why their commitment not worth? cost could have been negotiated. If they were not ready for build in India, we should have moved on with others who would do that. Its not a solution spending tons of money every year to outsiders...how long we will be doing that?

BTW, Can trust AAP a little now (Not sure what they will do in future). but rest of them every one knows that corrupt money only fuding all parties. I remember reading about Modi in wikileaks, though he did not collect bribes, money some how reached party as kickback.


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## uparyupari

doublemaster said:


> Why their commitment not worth? cost could have been negotiated. If they were not ready for build in India, we should have moved on with others who would do that. Its not a solution spending tons of money every year to outsiders...how long we will be doing that?


'
I just gave the Mistral example to explain the commitment part. 

We have moved on. This is what moving on looks like. 



> BTW, Can trust AAP a little now (Not sure what they will do in future). but rest of them every one knows that corrupt money only fuding all parties. I remember reading about Modi in wikileaks, though he did not collect bribes, money some how reached party as kickback.



Provide link that shows Modi took kickback as party funds. I am sick and tired of such baseless self serving allegations. If you can't at least have the decency to apologize for your comment. 

AAP is a joke. But if you want to support it, do so with integrity. Not with cheap AAP tactics like throwing mud and praying that it will stick.

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## The_Sidewinder

uparyupari said:


> '
> I just gave the Mistral example to explain the commitment part.
> 
> We have moved on. This is what moving on looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> Provide link that shows Modi took kickback as party funds. I am sick and tired of such baseless self serving allegations. If you can't at least have the decency to apologize for your comment.
> 
> AAP is a joke. But if you want to support it, do so with integrity. Not with cheap AAP tactics like throwing mud and praying that it will stick.



Seems like you have confronted another AAPtard with his own political vendetta. 
Njoy the conversation.  jeez

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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> Ajai Shukla says
> 
> 
> In addition to Rafale, India could also buy light fighter to replace MiG-21: Parrikar
> _MoD says it could bring in company other than HAL to build fighter in India_
> _This is the first time an official has revealed the amount Dassault had quoted for 126 Rafales. Media speculation had favoured a figure of $15-18 billion [up to 30]. Parrikar’s revelation of Rs 90,000 crore come to about $15 billion._
> _More than once, Parrikar referred to the Rafale’s capability for delivering weapons on deep-lying strategic targets --- his reference to a “strategic purchase” apparently hinting at a nuclear delivery role._
> _“Rafale is a strategic purchase and should never have gone through an RfP. These important decisions need to be taken at government-to-government levels. Modiji took the decision; I back it up”, the defence minister said._
> _“The penetration capability of this aircraft (Rafale) is 1,000-1,100 kilometres. The other [IAF] aircraft penetration range is 300-450 kilometres. So we get double the penetration,” said Parrikar, again referring to deep strike capability._
> _
> Broadsword: In addition to Rafale, India could also buy light fighter to replace MiG-21: Parrikar
> _
> @Ind4Ever As ajai shukla had commented even though it is inline with what we have discussed and i wrote, somehow i am feeling a bit sad. This guy keeps changing position too quickly from F35 to EF. So as i said earlier take every info with a pinch of salt



He is just confusing and repeating what we already decoded in this thread

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## doublemaster

uparyupari said:


> '
> I just gave the Mistral example to explain the commitment part.
> 
> We have moved on. This is what moving on looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> Provide link that shows Modi took kickback as party funds. I am sick and tired of such baseless self serving allegations. If you can't at least have the decency to apologize for your comment.
> 
> AAP is a joke. But if you want to support it, do so with integrity. Not with cheap AAP tactics like throwing mud and praying that it will stick.


Narendra Modi’s incorruptibility | Millennium Post
Yet, ‘all our interlocutors acknowledge that Modi is a modest man who, unlike many elected officials in India, has not used his position to enrich himself or his family. Most contacts also say that he has purged the state administration of petty corruption at the mid- and lower levels of the bureaucracy. However, several people tell us that big ticket corruption is still common.’ Now comes the meaty party, which has (or lacks) as much truth value as ‘Modi-is-incorruptible’ line: ‘Journalist Javed Rahmatullah claimed that Reliance Industries Ltd. (RIL) paid a large bribe for permission to expand its refinery in Jamnagar. The money went into the BJP’s party coffers, Rahmatullah claimed, and not to Modi or any other individual. Other contacts have told us that business money flows to the BJP in Gujarat, but nobody had been this specific. We have been unable to verify Rahmatullah’s claim.’
If we wait a bit, some fan may soon tweet: Modi is incorruptible, says Mukesh Ambani.

Keep aside your AAP is joke comment. I have seen how they worked in delhi. Delhi which is already smart city now voted for AAP. Like this comment i can also say so many things to BJP. Bhartheeya Jumla Party we have already seen how they were taking anti-national stand in every project. One of the big neusense in the case of this Rafale deal is subbu swami.

By the way, Every one who is not bhakth can easily know that source of party fund for BJP/congress comes from where. Go interact with local MLA, just see how they solve the issue which need money. 

By the way, when it comes to congres or AAP you can run away saying they are corrupt without proving anything. when it comes to BJP only if court says you will blive  

Keep side corruption, its not hard to guess who murdered Haren Pandya.

Scroll.in - News. Politics. Culture.

*2000:* The Indian Air Force expresses interest in buying medium multi-role combat aircraft to replace Soviet-era MiG-21s. Over the years, the ageing MiG-21s have been involved in multiple accidents.

*2001:* The Indian Air Force issues requests for information for 126 combat jets. But there is little activity for the next six years.

*2007:* The Indian government issues tenders for 126 MMRCAs, for an estimated cost of Rs42,000 crore ($6.7 billion, now). The request for proposal is issued to six vendors: Russia’s MIG-35 (RAC MiG); Sweden’s JAS-39 (Saab); French Rafale (Dassault); American F-16 Falcon (Lockheed Martin); Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon (made by a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian firms).

*2008:* US majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation, France’s Dassault, European consortium’s European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS) and Saab submit their bids.

*2011:* The defence ministry says it will start discussions with Dassault and EADS. The ministry tells American companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin that their proposals have been rejected.

*2012:* India shortlists Dassault, after it submits the lowest bids for the deal. According to the RFP, the winner of the contract would supply 18 of the 126 aircraft to the Indian Air Force in 36 months from its facilities, and the remaining would be produced at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd plant in Bangalore.

*2013:* Negotiations continue during the year.

*2014:* India decides to put the deal on hold due to budgetary constraints until 2015. Dassault remains hopeful.

*2015:* After three years of negotiations with Dassault, Modi announces on April 10 that he has ordered 36 “ready-to-fly” Rafale fighter jets from Dassault. A day later, Parrikar indicates that the move is the right direction, and says that in future India would deal directly with the French government instead of the aviation company.

*How lengthy is the procedure, i wonder why only UPA had to take the blame for delay! When 2000 to 2004 nothing happened.*


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## doublemaster

============
India may reconsider $20 billion French Rafale jet deal in favor of Russia

Just go through the link: Many wanted India to teach lessons to French if they didnt accept the deal. Now?

@Guynextdoor2


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## uparyupari

doublemaster said:


> Narendra Modi’s incorruptibility | Millennium Post
> Yet, ‘all our interlocutors acknowledge that Modi is a modest man who, unlike many elected officials in India, has not used his position to enrich himself or his family. Most contacts also say that he has purged the state administration of petty corruption at the mid- and lower levels of the bureaucracy. However, several people tell us that big ticket corruption is still common.’ Now comes the meaty party, which has (or lacks) as much truth value as ‘Modi-is-incorruptible’ line: ‘Journalist Javed Rahmatullah claimed that Reliance Industries Ltd. (RIL) paid a large bribe for permission to expand its refinery in Jamnagar. The money went into the BJP’s party coffers, Rahmatullah claimed, and not to Modi or any other individual. Other contacts have told us that business money flows to the BJP in Gujarat, but nobody had been this specific. We have been unable to verify Rahmatullah’s claim.’
> If we wait a bit, some fan may soon tweet: Modi is incorruptible, says Mukesh Ambani.
> 
> Keep aside your AAP is joke comment. I have seen how they worked in delhi. Delhi which is already smart city now voted for AAP. Like this comment i can also say so many things to BJP. Bhartheeya Jumla Party we have already seen how they were taking anti-national stand in every project. One of the big neusense in the case of this Rafale deal is subbu swami.
> 
> By the way, Every one who is not bhakth can easily know that source of party fund for BJP/congress comes from where. Go interact with local MLA, just see how they solve the issue which need money.
> 
> By the way, when it comes to congres or AAP you can run away saying they are corrupt without proving anything. when it comes to BJP only if court says you will blive
> 
> Keep side corruption, its not hard to guess who murdered Haren Pandya.



LOL. What kind of Rubbish is this ? the empty claim of a frustrated muslim "Javed Rahmatullah" is the proof ? 

Rakhi Sawant told me that you are a Rapist. So that must be true too. 

Now that I know you are a aaptard, not point in have a rational conversation with you. What a waste of time.

Finally Yasin Bhatkal has already revealed who killed Haren Pandya 

Haren Pandya killing mastermind was at Pak meeting: IM's Akhtar - Indian Express

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## magudi

uparyupari said:


> LOL. What kind of Rubbish is this ? the empty claim of a frustrated muslim "Javed Rahmatullah" is the proof ?
> 
> Rakhi Sawant told me that you are a Rapist. So that must be true too.
> 
> Now that I know you are a aaptard, not point in have a rational conversation with you. What a waste of time.
> 
> Finally Yasin Bhatkal has already revealed who killed Haren Pandya
> 
> Haren Pandya killing mastermind was at Pak meeting: IM's Akhtar - Indian Express




Trust me don't waste time arguing with him, he's a resident Modi/bjp hater, religious bias actually, anyone whose been around for long would know

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## Jayanta

The_Sidewinder said:


> @Chanakya's chant & @Indian Jaat & @halupridol @Jayanta @zootinali @The Huskar
> 
> Bhailog time have come it seems. Kuch meetha ho jaye



Ki disa eibur...narikolor laru, tilor laru, til peethe ityadi diya.

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## The_Sidewinder

Jayanta said:


> Ki disa eibur...narikolor laru, tilor laru, til peethe ityadi diya.


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## Jayanta

The_Sidewinder said:


>


 Je baat...

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## Odysseus

*Antony’s questions killed Rafale tender process: Manohar Parrikar: Hindustan Times.*

Manohar Parrikar took over as defence minister in November 2014 after two successful stints as the Goa chief minister.

India’s multi-billion tender process to buy 126 advanced warplanes was doomed from the start because UPA defence minister AK Antony had put a “question mark” on the deal, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has said . 

Speaking to Hindustan Times, Parrikar questioned the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) tendering process, picking holes in the method employed to determine French firm Dassault Aviation as the lowest bidder (L1) in the final round of the competition. According to the defence minister, the UPA government had taken hold of the “wrong end of the stick”.

India has scrapped the $25-billion deal more than three years after Dassault, which manufactures the Rafale, was declared the lowest bidder, with Prime Minister Narendra Modi opting instead to buy 36 of these jets from France in a fly-away condition under a government-to-government (G2G) contract.

“The previous defence minister had himself put a question mark (on the deal’s future) by saying go for price negotiations (with L1) but after that, review the procedure by which L1 was determined… It’s a funny statement… Concluding the deal would have been extremely difficult for us,” Parrikar told HT in his Kota House suite on the eve of a four-day visit to South Korea. Attired in a familiar blue bush shirt, Parrikar said the L1 figure in the fighter contract was determined by factoring in a questionable life-cycle cost model.

The Rafale had beaten stiff competition from the Eurofighter Typhoon to emerge the frontrunner for the contract in January 2012. Six fighters took part in the contest.

Parrikar said the request for proposal (tender) was probably not a great document as it left a lot to “interpretation and imagination.”

He said it wasn’t prudent to take the tender route to buy critical platforms such as warplanes.

“How do you compare various varieties of planes? You may take a benchmark and say these two (fighters) are above the benchmark, but again how do you compare a particular missile with another missile?” said Parrikar. He said even if multiple fighter platforms met the IAF’s requirements of combat radius, rate of climb and angle of attack, the type and number of missiles fitted on the planes could make the difference in their “effective operation”.

“I believe such strategic platforms (in a non-nuclear sense) cannot be compared with each other that easily. Suppose one costs a million dollars more than the other but has a more effective missile. Technically, it may be costlier but it is better as it has longer stand-off range,” he said, suggesting the G2G route for “strategic” buys.

The usually amiable Parrikar could not resist taking a dig at Congress leader Digvijaya Singh, who ridiculed him on Twitter for buying fish in Goa when Modi was ordering fighters in France. “Digvijaya Singh should eat fish. It will sharpen his brains,” Parrikar said.

Parrikar moved to an Akbar Road residence on Wednesday after staying in the navy’s Kota House for four months.


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## 45'22'

RISING SUN said:


> FYI Arihant reactor working at 70 mw steam power is really fantastic against 85 mw steam power of Nerpa. Nerpa is 8000 ton while Arihant is 6000 ton only. Do your math and see what you find out. Thank you.


I think Nerpa is 190 MW and the pwr we are using in arihant is 83 MW 
please correct me if I am wrong


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## RISING SUN

45'22' said:


> I think Nerpa is 190 MW and the pwr we are using in arihant is 83 MW
> please correct me if I am wrong


You are absolutely correct mate. But that is only one of looking at the power required to propel the boat. What I am saying that Nerpa has 185-190 mw nuke reactor with peak steam power generation rated at 85 mw. While Arihant has 80-85 mw nuke reactor with stablised steam power rated at 70 mw. I have just read these specks online. Not sure whether genuine or not.

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## anant_s

45'22' said:


> I think Nerpa is 190 MW and the pwr we are using in arihant is 83 MW
> please correct me if I am wrong





RISING SUN said:


> You are absolutely correct mate. But that is only one of looking at the power required to propel the boat. What I am saying that Nerpa has 185-190 mw nuke reactor with peak steam power generation rated at 85 mw. While Arihant has 80-85 mw nuke reactor with stablised steam power rated at 70 mw. I have just read these specks online. Not sure whether genuine or not.


*Nerpa




Core of Nerpa




Arihant*

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## cerberus

Keep


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## Abingdonboy

Heena Qureshi said:


> Indians you going to get a beauty. What say @Abingdonboy


No doubt about it bro


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## Su-11

Ammyy said:


> I think you are talking about george fernandes.. belongs to JDU.
> 
> And really a great way to deal with corruption. just dnt make any decision. Like we say no work no problem
> Even national security at high risk? What a idiot point to prove yourself right.
> 
> This is much much required deal and that MF antony did nothing.


Also Bangaru laxman..
That is why the tender and the detailed list of requirements which are to be met by the competing Aircraft Manufacturer. Indian Govt should have sued Dassaul's asses for breaking the terms of the contract, but this stupid govt has done just the opposite and gave in to their deamns. Dumbshit bjp!


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## Abingdonboy

Su-11 said:


> Indian Govt should have sued Dassaul's asses for breaking the terms of the contract,


No contract was ever signed so nothing has been broken. 



Su-11 said:


> but this stupid govt has done just the opposite and gave in to their deamns. Dumbshit bjp!



Or to put it another way the GoI took action to address a deadlock that had existed for over three years and now we are finally seeing progress.

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## Su-11

Abingdonboy said:


> No contract was ever signed so nothing has been broken.
> 
> 
> 
> Or to put it another way the GoI took action to address a deadlock that had existed for over three years and now we are finally seeing progress.


They submitted false data on costs which made them win over Eurofighter.
A deadlock which was brought on by Dassault by breaking their own cost estimates.
And what a wonderful message which the current Govt sends out, "if you dont like the terms of the contract, then just stretch it out and in time the Indian Govt will bend to your wishes to get your fighter plane". Dumbshits


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## wiseone2

janon said:


> As I said, they also offered to transfer the entire M2K production likne to India in 2001. It was our stupidity not to grab the offer with both hands.
> 
> Your statement that Dassault hasn't agreed to manufacture its aircrafts anywhere else "in it entire history" is very very wrong.
> 
> BTW, how many fighters have they produced, between the Mirage-III family and the M2K?
> 
> Seems like they have agreed to manufacture every aircraft they made since the 1960s, outside.
> 
> 
> I know, I was talking about their 2001 offer.



The question is whether the French were serious in 2001



Su-11 said:


> They submitted false data on costs which made them win over Eurofighter.
> A deadlock which was brought on by Dassault by breaking their own cost estimates.
> And what a wonderful message which the current Govt sends out, "if you dont like the terms of the contract, then just stretch it out and in time the Indian Govt will bend to your wishes to get your fighter plane". Dumbshits



if that is the case cancel the deal and sign the Typhoon


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## BATTLE FIELD

Penguin said:


>


falled in love with it


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## Penguin

BATTLE FIELD said:


> falled in love with it



I like 'Sharkey" as well

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## BATTLE FIELD

Penguin said:


> I like 'Sharkey" as well


beauty and performance those European jets are like Ferrari.

i m new here, of course you know that.
36 rafale what we gonna do with it.is it enough for our Hugh country.

it is 36 or 63?


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## egodoc222

Penguin said:


> I like 'Sharkey" as well


Ugly cat fish!


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## Penguin

egodoc222 said:


> Ugly cat fish!


Spoilsport.

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## [Bregs]

BATTLE FIELD said:


> beauty and performance those European jets are like Ferrari.
> 
> i m new here, of course you know that.
> 36 rafale what we gonna do with it.is it enough for our Hugh country.
> 
> it is 36 or 63?



Till now 36 deal is not signed, talks moving slowly on offset clause which is in force in india since 2005 and french are well of aware of it

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## Penguin

All Hail Platypus!





Su-30MKI





I think it is alien

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## black-hawk_101

Penguin said:


> I like 'Sharkey" as well



I can easily assure you that IAF will going to go for:
100 Rafaels
100 EF-2000
off the shelf


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## GURU DUTT

black-hawk_101 said:


> I can easily assure you that IAF will going to go for:
> 100 Rafaels
> 100 EF-2000
> off the shelf


no rafale if it ever comes it will not be greater number than M2Ks right now in IAF

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## [Bregs]

black-hawk_101 said:


> I can easily assure you that IAF will going to go for:
> 100 Rafaels
> 100 EF-2000
> off the shelf




arey bhai what india will do multiple type of euro fighters, only rafales will be procured around 3 sq and some 6-8 as reserves

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## Penguin

egodoc222 said:


> Ugly cat fish!












Now that's a catfish.

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## egodoc222

Two ca


Penguin said:


>


Two canards on typhoons look like whiskers of the catfish....lol
Ugly ugly


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## Penguin

I THOUGHT I TAW A _*PUDDY CAT*_..........




I DID I DID I DID SEE A _*PUDDY CAT*_








egodoc222 said:


> Two ca
> 
> Two canards on typhoons look like whiskers of the catfish....lol
> Ugly ugly



Lavi





J-10





XB-70





Gripen






Guess the aircraft

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## surya kiran

Penguin said:


> Guess the aircraft


That looks like the experimental version before the Typhoon. The EAP.


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## Penguin

surya kiran said:


> That looks like the experimental version before the Typhoon. The EAP.


.... and we have a winner, ladies and gentlemen! Congratulations

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## Penguin

SecularNationalist said:


> And meanwhile the street poop party continues


Beg yur pardon?


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## surya kiran

Penguin said:


> Beg yur pardon?



He means toilets and poverty in India

@waz can you please take care of this idiot, @SecularNationalist


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## Penguin

SecularNationalist said:


> And meanwhile the street poop party continues


@SecularNationalist:
As a Dutch poster (and one of the many non-Indian and non-Pakistanis) on this forum, I don't quite appreaciate this kind of contribution. Please post contructively or move on.

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## BATTLE FIELD

Penguin said:


> Guess the aircraft


British experimental?


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## manojb

63 rafael + 63 Su35 = 126 MMRCA

How does this eqation look?

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## majid mehmood

manojb said:


> 63 rafael + 63 Su35 = 126 MMRCA
> 
> How does this eqation look?


no su 35 and might be pakistan would be getting it 
after this news at 30 august it was announced that mmrca was dead
so no rafales also


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## Penguin

BATTLE FIELD said:


> British experimental?


The *British Aerospace EAP* (for Experimental Aircraft Programme) was a technology demonstrator aircraft developed as a private venture in the 1980s and which eventually formed the basis for the Eurofighter Typhoon

British Aerospace EAP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Experimental Aircraft Programme - BAE Systems


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## BATTLE FIELD

Penguin said:


> The *British Aerospace EAP* (for Experimental Aircraft Programme) was a technology demonstrator aircraft developed as a private venture in the 1980s and which eventually formed the basis for the Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> British Aerospace EAP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Experimental Aircraft Programme - BAE Systems


britishfighter typhoon.


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## sathya

majid mehmood said:


> no su 35 and might be pakistan would be getting it
> after this news at 30 august it was announced that mmrca was dead
> so no rafales also



Yeah I will be very happy if it is so..

And got Pak Fa instead.


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## ultron

When will the deal be signed?


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