# Ukraine says Malaysian airliner shot down, 295 dead: agency



## Ola

News just coming in of yet another Malaysia Airlines flight crashing on the Russia - Ukraine Border. The flight originated in Amsterdam and was headed to Kuala Lumpur.

Its been a bad year for MH.


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## Donatello

B777? RIP.

This is just so sad.

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## Mr.S.Singh

shot down by a missile

295 onboard


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## Ola

Malaysia Airlines now have a hell of a lot of explaining to do. RIP to the departed.



Mr.S.Singh said:


> shot down by a missile
> 
> 295 onboard



Is the shooting down true? At that stage of the flight it would have been flying at about 35000 feet.

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## SQ8

Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live - Telegraph

* Interfax reports that a Malaysian plane has crashed in Ukraine*
*• The plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur*
*• 295 people were on board*
*• *

*16.34 *Interfax are saying that the plane was shot down.



*16.28* Initial reports suggested that the flight could have been Malaysia Airlines MH17, which left Amsterdam at 12.14.

It was due to arrive in Kuala Lumpur at 06.09.



*16.27 *Unconfirmed reports on Twitter showed YouTube footage of a large pall of smoke in fields near Shaktersk.

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## acetophenol

I don't think anyone will dare to fly with Malayasian Airlines again.

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## SQ8

Bad luck for Malaysian airlines, just jinxed.


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## Owl of Abott

UK and Russia share no border with each other

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## Donatello

Speculation going on that it was shot down. Like seriously? WTF WTF WTF WTF!

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## haman10

Owl of Abott said:


> UK and Russia share no border with each other


UKraine =/= United Kingdom

smart dude

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## JanjaWeed

Looks like the plane came down in an area which has been seeing military action for quite a while now. This incident will change the game completely in that part of the world. wow..

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## Owl of Abott

haman10 said:


> UKraine =/= United Kingdom
> 
> smart dude


Thanks anyway.

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## vishnuvardhana

News channel says that an surface to Air missile shot down the plane......


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## MarkusS

Looks like russian terrorists shot it down. According to "Der Spiegel", the airplane was shot down at cruising altitude.

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## nik141991

Reuters saying it was shot down

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## Indischer

Bloody Hell! Just when you thought it was safe to fly Malaysia Airlines again, now that everyone had conveniently forgotten about MH370 and moved on......


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## Mr.S.Singh

Ola said:


> Is the shooting down true? At that stage of the flight it would have been flying at about 35000 feet.


news here are quoting Russian news agency, which says the plane has been shot down


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## sree45

Ola said:


> Malaysia Airlines now have a hell of a lot of explaining to do. RIP to the departed.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the shooting down true? At that stage of the flight it would have been flying at about 35000 feet.



Some sources are reporting that the plane was shot down at an altitude of 10KMS


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## rockstar08

WTF ? now they will shoot passenger planes ?


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## SwAggeR

But why a civilian plane ?? Person behind it must be brought to book.


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## Victory

295 passengers killed


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## majesticpankaj

In june, i was travelling from melbourne to bangalore.. my wife didn't allow me to book malaysian airline. This is such a horrible news. RIP

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## Zabaniyah

Oh, they gotta be kidding...
BBC News - Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine



> Anton Herashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying the plane had been hit by a missile at an altitude of 10,000m (33,000ft).
> 
> A number of military planes have been shot down by missiles in recent weeks over eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russian separatist rebels have been fighting government forces.



Uh-oh...


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## majesticpankaj

Malaysia Airlines plane with 295 on board crashes in Ukraine near Russian border

KIEV: A Malaysian Airlines plane with 295 people on board crashed in Ukraine near the Russian border on Thursday, the Interfax news agency cited an aviation industry source as saying. 

The Boeing plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, it said. Reuters could not immediately confirm the report. 

The Interfax report said the plane came down 50 km (20 miles) short of entering Russian airspace. It "began to drop, afterwards it was found burning on the ground on Ukrainian territory," the unnamed source said. 

The plane appeared to have come down in a region of military action where Ukrainian government forces are battling pro-Russian separatists.

Ukraine interior ministry adviser says 280 passengers, 15 crew dead in crash, Interfax reported. 

A separate unnamed source in the Ukrainian security apparatus, quoted by Interfax, said the plane disappeared from radar at a height of 10,000 metres after which it came down near the town of Shakhtyorsk.

The Malaysian plane was brought down by a Buk Ground-to-Air missile, the interior minister adviser said, quoted by Interfax. 
Malaysian Airlines has confirmed it has lost contact with flight MH17. The airline's Twitter feed confirms last known position of the aircraft was over Ukrainian airspace.

Malaysia Airlines plane with 295 on board crashes in Ukraine near Russian border - The Times of India


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## Pangu

This is crazy, why wasn't the airliner diverted away from the hot zone?


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## MarkusS

SwAggeR said:


> But why a civilian plane ?? Person behind it must be brought to book.



easy answer. russia supplier terrorists with technology to shot down airplanes. Those are stupid morons like the self proclaimed mayor of slawansk. My guess is that ome of those morons simply made a mistake. That happens when you give technology to those morons. Now it will get interesting. I feel sorry for the victims. The brak up happemed at cruisimg altitude. I hope the hull did crack early so people got unconcious and did not suffer all the way down.

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## senses

Still no confirmation.


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## IR1907

MarkusS said:


> Looks like russian terrorists shot it down. According to "Der Spiegel", the airplane was shot down at cruising altitude.


Anyone who pulled the trigger should be ashamed, literally. There is nothing more cowardly than shooting a defenceless passenger airplane with almost 300 people on board.

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## khanboy007

London: *A Malaysian Boeing 777 *en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has crashed in eastern Ukraine near Donetsk, according to online reports.

On board were 280 passengers and 15 crew, Russia’s Interfax news agency said.

*Anti-Russian activists in the Ukraine claimed it was shot down over territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists.*

Interfax quoted a source in aviation circles saying the flight was about 80 kilometres from Russian airspace.

The plane wreckage was said to be on fire.

Euromaidan PR linked to several videos showing thick plumes of smoke coming from an unidentified site.

Ukarine’s Espreso TV reported that pro-Russian militants had recently received anti-aircraft weapons capable of shooting down planes at high altitudes.

*However there was not yet any official confirmation of the crash, or its cause.*


Read more: Malaysian Airlines plane crashes in east Ukraine near Russian border: reports

here is the video (as mentioned in the report)





----------------------------------------------------------------------

yes it's a boeing 777 and it was shot down !!!!! but yet no confirmation

first mh370 and now this too.. 

very sad to hear of this !!!!!

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## IndoCarib

A Malaysian Airlines passenger plane with 295 aboard was shot down by a surface-to-air missile in Ukraine near the Russian border, according to multiple reports.

The airline, the same one whose plane disappeared over the Indian Ocean in March, confirmed only that "an incident" had occurred involving the Boeing 777, which was en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam.

“Malaysia Airlines has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam," read a tweet from the airline. "The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace. More details to follow,” read a tweet from Malaysia Airlines’ account.

Multiple reports said the plane was shot down at cruising altitude. Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's Interior Minister told The Associated press that the plane, carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew people onboard, was shot down.

Gerashenko says on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit Thursday by a missile fired from a Buk launcher. A similar launcher was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday.
The adviser also told Russian news agency Interfax that all onboard have been killed.

On March 8, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, carrying 227 passengers and 12 crew on a route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, disappeared somehwere over the ocean. It has not been found.

Malaysia Airlines passenger jet reportedly shot down in Ukraine | Fox News

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## Aepsilons

Condolences to all families of the victims!


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## gau8av

unbelievable.. hope it's not an igla 

self defence forces deny involvment, Poroshenko releases statement denying any hand of Ukrainian forces.


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## Dubious

Damn thats scary!! I used to use MAS alot 


RIP

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## JanjaWeed

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489804267675713537

Malaysian Airlines going through real bad time!


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## Star Wars

JanjaWeed said:


> Looks like the plane came down in an area which has been seeing military action for quite a while now. This incident will change the game completely in that part of the world. wow..



Could this cause an NATO intervention in Ukraine ? this is very worrying , Russians would never allow it


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## Kaalapani

Who on Earth proposed Flight path over Conflict Zone?
RIP.

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## IR1907

JanjaWeed said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489804267675713537
> 
> Malaysian Airlines going through real bad time!


So sad ... unbelievable

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## Dubious

Thread merge : Malaysia Airlines in trouble once again | Page 2

@WebMaster @Aeronaut @Manticore @Jungibaaz @Emmie @Chak Bamu @T-Faz @Oscar @blain2 @Adios Amigo @Fulcrum15 @TaimiKhan

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## JanjaWeed

Star Wars said:


> Could this cause an NATO intervention in Ukraine ? this is very worrying , Russians would never allow it


This would be a rallying point for the West & their partners against Russia. Interesting time ahead. But... this is the last thing Russia would have wanted at this point in time.


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## IR1907

Kaalapani said:


> Who on Earth proposed Flight path over Conflict Zone?
> RIP.


I think flight paths are limited due to heavy air traffic around those areas

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## Lux de Veritas

It is a sad event.

I really suspect the Nazi Ukraine government more than Putin in case of any foul play. Putin despite of all his weaknesses, is a man who play by the rules and someone people can do business with. 

Unlike others, Putin defended his countries against traitors who sold themselves to USA.

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## lightoftruth

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489804938470375425


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## Counter-Errorist



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## JanjaWeed

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489804726272532480


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## mmkextreme_1

Wonder why they would shoot a Malaysian jetliner? 

This is the second incident with Malaysian airliner in the past 6 months.

inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon

RIP to all the people that have passed because of this unfortunate accident.

I would assume this jetliner would have been at an high altitude, don't think rebels have that kind of technology to shoot down a plane at that altitude. If it was shot down by something, has to be some form off sophisticated weaponry. Serious serious error caused, if it was shot down.

My heart goes out to all the families that have been effected.

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## waz

Well with Putin's pets having access to the S-200 system this was bound to happen. The Ukrainian military has said they had nothing to do with it. As for the Russians there is silence....Which I might add speaks volumes.

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## Counter-Errorist

Ukraine says Malaysian airliner shot down, 295 dead: agency| Reuters



waz said:


> Well with Putin's pets having access to the S-200 system this was bound to happen. The Ukrainians military has said they had nothing to do with it. As for the Russians there is silence....Which I might add speaks volumes.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489798936224628736

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## waz

MarkusS said:


> Looks like russian terrorists shot it down. According to "Der Spiegel", the airplane was shot down at cruising altitude.



Yes a result of Putin's little project. This is going to damage Russia's reputation beyond any hope of repair. There are reports saying "many" nationalities were on board. Oh dear....

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## lightoftruth

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489802664264212480


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## Archdemon

Probably Russian thought it was Ukrainian military plane approaching Russia and shot it down.


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## Counter-Errorist

waz said:


> Yes a result of Putin's little project. This is going to damage Russia's reputation beyond any hope of repair. There are reports saying "many" nationalities were on board. Oh dear....



He's likely gonna skin someone alive for this


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## LordTyrannus

Putin could had easily avoid that all. His lust for power will be his downfall.


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## JanjaWeed

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489806421622411264

& the blame game begins! 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489806978248900609


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## Jf Thunder

Archdemon said:


> Probably Russian through it was Ukrainian military plane approaching Russia and shot it down.


im sure in today's age of advanced tech, you can tell the difference between a passenger plane and a civilian plane

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## IR1907

https://pp.vk.me/c616525/v616525687/17daf/SFYAkmqz14c.jpg

https://pp.vk.me/c616525/v616525687/17d9b/s7Di_ae3LYM.jpg

https://pp.vk.me/c616525/v616525687/17dcd/v2JcB5N-qdw.jpg


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## illusion8

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — A Ukrainian official said a passenger plane carrying 295 people was shot down Thursday over a town in the east of the country, and Malaysian Airlines tweeted that it lost contact with one of its flights over Ukrainian airspace.

Ukraine’s president said the “Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets.”

Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s interior minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters (33,000 feet) when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher. A similar launcher was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday. The Buk missile system can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).

Malaysia Airlines said on its Twitter feed that it ‘‘has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace. More details to follow.’’

The region has seen severe fighting between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russia separatist rebels in recent days.

Passenger plane carrying 295 shot down, adviser to Ukrainian official says - World - The Boston Globe


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## waz

Archdemon said:


> Probably Russian thought it was Ukrainian military plane approaching Russia and shot it down.



You don't make a mistake like that dude. This is a well known flight path. Some airlines avoid, some don't.

This is horrible beyond words.


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## JonAsad

RIP-
Gaza was getting to much attention-
That will again put Ukraine issue top in the press-

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## Star Wars

WTF is a civilian airliner doing over a warzone


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## AHMED85

There is a Worm kill in flour making.....
.


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## Roybot

This is messed up, Malaysian Airlines is jinxed. This shyte in Ukraine is going to escalate. RIP.


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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489806169276678146

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## AHMED85

So it has been estimated same as Gaza Lose..


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## Archdemon

waz said:


> You don't make a mistake like that dude. This is a well known flight path. Some airlines avoid, some don't.
> 
> This is horrible beyond words.



Mistakes is human nature, technology will not eliminate mistakes.


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## JanjaWeed

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489810518505717761


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## Contrarian

RIP


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## Rangila

*We didn't shoot the plane: Ukraine President : *

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## AHMED85

Archdemon said:


> Mistakes is human nature, technology will not eliminate mistakes.



R8 , Beware


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## Aepsilons

waz said:


> Well with Putin's pets having access to the S-200 system this was bound to happen. The Ukrainian military has said they had nothing to do with it. As for the Russians there is silence....Which I might add speaks volumes.



The former Soviet Union has a history of shooting down civilian jet liners, as well.I am afraid that the separatist forces did this, and their weapons undoubtedly came from...

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Stealth

Again Malaysian Airline shootdown by Russian Missile... ye **** Malaysia pore tarhan apni airline baeech kyo nahedeta... 300 people on board...* new slogan of Malaysian Airline - Die with Us....*

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## A1Kaid

Why a passenger airline would risk flying over a war zone is just idiocy. According to news report the plane took from Amsterdam and was headed to Malaysia, why it would be flying over the Ukranian/Russian border is a terrible flight path. US and other countries have already banned their airliners form flying over that airspace. Why a Malaysian airline flight was over a war zone is a question for Malaysian airline officials and government.

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## gau8av

wait, some reports saying it was at cruising altiude 30,000+ feet.. that's well above the flight ceiling of an igla


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## Men in Green




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## Aepsilons

A1Kaid said:


> Why a passenger airline would risk flying over a war zone is just idiocy. According to news report the plane took from Amsterdam and was headed to Malaysia, why it would be flying over the Ukranian/Russian border is a terrible flight path.




Yes, i am asking this same question, too.


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## Lux de Veritas

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Russia has a history of shooting down civilian jet liners, as well.
> 
> Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I do not think this has anything to do with Russia. You have been trying to mix up USSR and Russia which is 2 different thing, just like Imperial Japan and Japan today is not the same.

The Ukrainian government today are full of gangsterism teeming with neo Nazi. I distrust these folks more than Eastern Ukraine rebel.


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## Mr.S.Singh

putin n obama on phone ! somethings cooking


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## Ajaysingh

Condolences to all families..... RIP
Case of miss-identity or deliberately done......shameful


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## Aepsilons

Men in Green said:


>





Blessed is our God always, both now and ever, and to the ages of ages.

Amen. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us. (3)

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

All-Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, be gracious unto our sins. Master, pardon our transgressions. Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities, for Your Name's sake.

Lord have mercy; Lord have mercy; Lord have mercy.

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

Our Father, Who are in Heaven,
Hallowed be Your Name; Your Kingdom come.
Your Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

*Priest: *For Yours is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory, I of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; both now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

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## flamer84

RIP to the dead.

The Russians f-ed big time on this one.They are now a terrorist state.The world should take drastic measures against this rogue state.


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## Lux de Veritas

Above is Syrian chemical attack now mostly blame on USA and allies supported rebels. USA supported terrorist tried to put blame on Assad.


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## Aepsilons

With the spirits of the righteous made perfect Give rest to the soul of Your servant, O Savior; And keep it safe in that life of blessedness That is lived with You, O Friend of Man.

In the place of Your rest, O Lord, Where all Your Saints repose, Give rest also to the soul of Your servant, For You alone are immortal.

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

You are our God Who went down to Hades To loose the pains of the dead that were there; Give rest also to the soul of Your servant, O Savior.

Both now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

O Virgin, alone pure and immaculate that in maiden-motherhood brought forth God, intercede for the salvation of the soul of your servant.

*Priest: *Have mercy on us. O God, according to Your great mercy; we pray You, listen and have mercy.

*Choir: *Lord have mercy.

*AMEN.*

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## flamer84

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Blessed is our God always, both now and ever, and to the ages of ages.
> 
> Amen. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us. (3)
> 
> Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
> 
> All-Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, be gracious unto our sins. Master, pardon our transgressions. Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities, for Your Name's sake.
> 
> Lord have mercy; Lord have mercy; Lord have mercy.
> 
> Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
> 
> Our Father, Who are in Heaven,
> Hallowed be Your Name; Your Kingdom come.
> Your Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
> Give us this day our daily bread;
> And forgive us our trespasses,
> As we forgive those who trespass against us.
> And lead us not into temptation,
> But deliver us from evil.
> 
> *Priest: *For Yours is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory, I of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; both now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.




Amin.

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## scorpionx

Rest in peace the poor souls. Something is just not right with Malaysian Airlines at present.

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## Peaceful Civilian

I think Russia is involved in this incident... Years ago, they already shot down civilian plane, killing 269 people, in the name of security and they accepted the responsibility .... Same incident again..... This is deliberate attempt of Russia to keep away planes from disputed areas.

RIP to the poor souls.

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## NEPALESE GURKHA

Not possible that a unskilled hand can operate any surface to air missile system that can hit plane at altitude of 10000 meter.


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## Kaalapani

flamer84 said:


> RIP to the dead.
> 
> The Russians f-ed big time on this one.They are now a terrorist state.The world should take drastic measures against this rogue state.



MR.Dracula at it again.


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## vostok

What did the plane was doing in a combat zone? It has long been closed to civil aviation. Ukrainian troops likely thought it fly Russian paratroopers. Or maybe just want to denigrate militias. Or maybe they're just stupid.
RIP to passengers.

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## nair

RIP...... Its a case of being at Wrong place at a wrong time.....


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## JanjaWeed

There have been few coming down in that area... & I wonder why commercial airlines still use the same airspace? They could have crossed over either via Belarusian airspace or over black sea & could avoided Ukraine - Russia border altogether! Then again... what do I know!

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## Kaalapani

The Guys who authorized this Flight Path should be hanged by their balls..

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## vostok

Peaceful Civilian said:


> I think Russia is involved in this incident... Years ago, they already shot down civilian plane, killing 300 people, in the name of security and they accepted the responsibility .... Same incident again..... This is deliberate attempt of Russia to keep away civilian planes from disputed areas.
> 
> RIP to the poor souls.


It was Ukrainian who shot down Israel plane above Black Sea
Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Lux de Veritas

It is definitely not possible for any militia to fire a missile to a plane at cruise attitude. This is the work of air defence artillery.

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## Donatello

JanjaWeed said:


> There have been few coming down in that area... & I wonder why commercial airlines still use the same airspace? They could have crossed over either via Belarusian airspace or over black sea & could avoided Ukraine - Russia border altogether! Then again... what do I know!



It's not easy to route planes over different routes. Planes must fly within designated radar zones and flight paths.


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## Chak Bamu

Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Basic missile system specifications[edit]*

Target acquisition range (by TAR 9S18M1, 9S18M1-1)
range – 140–,
altitude – 60 m – 25 km,
Firing groups in one division – up to 6 (with one command post)
Firing groups operating in a sector
90° in azimuth, 0–7° and 7–14° in elevation,
45° in azimuth, 14–52° in elevation,
Radar mast lifting height (for TAR 9S36) – 21 m,
Reloading of 4 missiles by TEL from itself – around 15 min,
Combat readiness time – no more than 5 min,
Kill probability (by one missile) – 0.9–0.95,
*Target engagement zone
aircraft
altitude – 15 m – 25 km
range – 3–42 km*
TBM
altitude – 2.0–16 km
range – 3–20 km
sea targets – up to 25 km
land targets – up to 15 km.

Somebody already shared the below tweet. I am copying it here just to relate to the above:

*ConflictReporter* ‏@MiddleEast_BRK  1h
The BUK system that downed MH17 was provided to Russians inside Ukraine by the Russian army in the last 48 hrs. I reported it 3 hours ago.



*ConflictReporter* @MiddleEast_BRK · 43m
#BREAKINGNEWS RUSSIAN GRU OFFICER / MILITARY LEADER IN UKRAINE IGOR STRELKOV CLAIMS #MH17 DOWNING, says "we told you not to fly here".

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## NEPALESE GURKHA

Only system that can bring plane down from that altitude in that part is Russian buk system.

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## Chak Bamu

Retweeted by ConflictReporter


*James Miller* @MillerMENA · 55m
Note the HIGHLY suspicious news story ONLY reported by Russian military that separatists 'captured' a BUK SAM system http://bit.ly/1t9kN1r


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## nair

What is happening in this world???? Conflicts every where...... and innocent civilians get killed....

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## flamer84

vostok said:


> What did the plane was doing in a combat zone? It has long been closed to civil aviation. Ukrainian troops likely thought it fly Russian paratroopers. Or maybe just want to denigrate militias. Or maybe they're just stupid.
> RIP to passengers.




Nikolai Holmov
#*Strelkov*'s page boasts of A-26 being downed as Boeing MH17 reportedly crashed over #*Donetsk*. Inferences to be drawn
6:47 PM - 17 Jul 2014

Your terrorists were just bragging of downing an Ukr plane on twitter....those inbreed fucks killed 300 innocents instead....Find some more excuses now ***************************************.

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## Rahul9090

_Those behind this tragedy will be brought to justice"_
- Ukraine presiden




sad news ... RIP...

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## NEPALESE GURKHA

The only 2 spy satellite that can provided radar data there is either US spy satellite or Russian. NATO has no satellite coverage to Ukraine coz they are not NATO member as well as there satellite is operated in Eastern Europe not there.


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## skullMAN

poor innocent people....

R I P


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## Strigon

nair said:


> What is happening in this world???? Conflicts every where...... and innocent civilians get killed....




Indeed. Everyday I wake up to atleast 100 people dead somewhere. What would it take for the world to live and let live for one day!

Maybe its our time to get hit by a meteor as well.

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## vostok

Yesterday Ukrainian troops redeployed division of "Buks" near Donetsk. So it's their job.

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## MarkusS

Kaalapani said:


> The Guys who authorized this Flight Path should be hanged by their balls..



the flight path is not banned, used from hundrds of airliners each day.


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## waz

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The former Soviet Union has a history of shooting down civilian jet liners, as well.I am afraid that the separatist forces did this, and their weapons undoubtedly came from...
> 
> Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Of course bro. I remember the incident well.

This time the evidence is weighty and the will find it hard to wriggle their way out of this.

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## nair

CNN is reporting that the separatist leader tweeting, One more bird down (implying Ukraine fighter is down), once he realised that this is a commercial airliner, he re tweeted saying We told you not to fly in our zone....


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## Aepsilons

I fear there were Japanese citizens aboard that plane. And if there were Japanese citizens on that plane, who ever is responsible for this heinous act will pay!

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## MarkusS

vostok said:


> Yesterday Ukrainian troops redeployed division of "Buks" near Donetsk. So it's their job.



your goons celebrated the shot down before they heared it was a passenger plane.

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## Aepsilons

*Ukraine Says Russian Plane Shot Down Its Fighter Jet*

MOSCOW — The Ukrainian government said on Thursday that a Russian military plane had shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet in Ukrainian airspace the previous evening, a serious allegation of direct intervention by Russia’s armed forces.

If confirmed, the confrontation would represent the first open and direct involvement by Russia’s military in eastern Ukraine since the separatist rebellion began there in April.

There was no immediate confirmation or denial by Russian officials. Vladislav Brig, a spokesman for one of the separatist groups in eastern Ukraine, said in a telephone interview that rebel fighters had shot rockets at two or three Ukrainian fighter jets on Wednesday evening. Mr. Brig said the rockets were fired from the ground.

The Ukrainian government alleged a more dramatic midair confrontation, involving Russia.


“Military aircraft of the Russian Federation carried out a rocket attack on a Su-25 plane of the armed forces of Ukraine, which was on a mission in Ukraine,” Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, said on Thursday at a news briefing in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital. “Our plane was shot down.”

Continue reading the main story




* Ukraine Crisis in Maps *
Though there is a growing body of evidence that Russia has provided tanks, weapons and other support to the separatist rebels, and several leaders of the insurrection have identified themselves as Russian citizens, there has been no proof of active engagement in Ukraine by the regular Russian military. The Ukrainian government, however, has complained on several occasions of violations of its airspace by Russian aircraft.

Mr. Lysenko said the pilot of the Su-25 fighter had ejected from the aircraft and parachuted safely to the ground, and had been removed to safety by Ukrainian ground forces. “The pilot had no injuries,” he said.

Although President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has called repeatedly in recent weeks for a renewal of peace negotiations that would directly involve separatist leaders, the United States has said Russia has stepped up its military support for the rebels. On Wednesday, President Obama announced additional economic sanctions to penalize Russia for its role in the Ukraine crisis.

“Even in the face of all this diplomacy that’s been going on and very high-level efforts by us and by key members of the European Union, notably France, Germany, the U.K., in fact, over the past month, the flow of heavy weapons and support for separatists from Russia has actually increased,” a senior Obama administration official said on Wednesday, during a briefing for reporters about the new sanctions.

“You will have seen on social media over the last week convoys of Russian tanks, armored personnel carriers, infantry combat vehicles, Grad rocket launchers, Howitzers, self-propelled mortars flowing into Ukraine,” said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity under the ground rules that the White House has imposed for such briefings.

Ukraine and Russia have traded several accusations of cross-border hostilities in recent days. The Russian Foreign Ministry, for instance, warned of potentially “irreversible consequences” after a man was killed in the Russian city of Donetsk, which shares the same name as the regional capital in eastern Ukraine where rebel forces have been regrouping in recent days. The Russians said the man was killed by a mortar shell fired from the Ukrainian side of the border.

Ukraine, in turn, has accused Russia of firing a rocket that destroyed an Antonov-26 military transport plane on Monday, and Ukraine also accused Russian military planes of carrying out an airstrike that destroyed a residential building and killed 11 people in the town of Snizhne on Tuesday morning.

The American official who briefed reporters on the new sanctions said the Ukrainian transport plane had been flying at an altitude of 21,000 feet. “Only very sophisticated weapons systems would be able to reach this height,” the official said.

In explaining the sanctions, American officials also noted that three of the top leaders of the separatist movement — Alexander Borodai, the prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic; Igor Strelkov, the republic’s defense minister; and Pavel Gubarev, its governor — are Russian citizens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/w...ian-plane-shot-down-its-fighter-jet.html?_r=0


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## nair

vostok said:


> Yesterday Ukrainian troops redeployed division of "Buks" near Donetsk. So it's their job.



Why would they fire at a commercial airliner when they have enough info on that flight???

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## Aepsilons

MarkusS said:


> your goons celebrated the shot down before they heared it was a passenger plane.




It is suspected that the Russian Air Force shot it down. If this is true, then THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY must condemn the perpetrator.

I was once against sanctions on Russia. If this is true, then I wish all trade be cut off. Until justice is done.


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## Lux de Veritas

It is quite fishy to me that many PDF chaps jump in and accuse Russia. I have strong suspicious you guys are from intelligence community.

An introduction to the Ukraine fascist government.

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## Tunisian Marine Corps

i think that the terrorists of Donetsk shot it down because they the only ones that use anti air

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## vostok

100% provocation of the West and their puppets in Kiev. Militia have turned the tide of the war, so it is only in the interest of Kiev junta.

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## Aepsilons

nair said:


> Why would they fire at a commercial airliner when they have enough info on that flight???



Precisely.

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## waz

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I fear there were Japanese citizens aboard that plane. And if there were Japanese citizens on that plane, who ever is responsible for this heinous act will pay!



Sanctions on the level of North Korea? I think think this is what is going to happen. There is now news that our a dozen other nationalities were on the plane, including 14 Dutch folk.

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## Lux de Veritas

Tunisian Marine Corps said:


> i think that the terrorists of Donetsk shot it down because they the only ones that use anti air



A normal militia cannot pull that off. It is specially trained SAM unit.


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## nair

Ukrain says separatists shot down a fighter plane at a altitude of 22k , So the capability is there...... Ironically the previous episode of similar case had russia involved.... (here they may not be directly)

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## MarkusS

vostok said:


> 100% provocation of the West and their puppets in Kiev. Militia have turned the tide of the war, so it is only in the interest of Kiev junta.


your terrorist friends already admitted it.  They celebrated the shot down.

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## Pakistani E

Lux de Veritas said:


> It is quite fishy to me that many PDF chaps jump in and accuse Russia. I have strong suspicious you guys are from intelligence community.
> 
> An introduction to the Ukraine fascist government.



We don't know enough to judge yet, but all throughout the thread you have done nothing but defend the civilian killing terrorists in eastern Ukraine.

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## flamer84

vostok said:


> Yesterday Ukrainian troops redeployed division of "Buks" near Donetsk. So it's their job.




Liar !! 


Nikolai Holmov
#*Strelkov*'s page boasts of A-26 being downed as Boeing MH17 reportedly crashed over #*Donetsk*. Inferences to be drawn
6:47 PM - 17 Jul 2014

I will post this every time you lie without shame.

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## waz

MarkusS said:


> your goons celebrated the shot down before they heared it was a passenger plane.



These rebels had videos all over social media, claiming they had shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane. They were then hastily taken off when they discovered it was a passenger plane. This just shows their guilt.

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## gau8av

John McCain is live on CNN now saying the Ukrainian military don't have the capability to hit an airliner ... but we're not sure yet  sanction Russia and arm Ukraine  .. putin evil blabla 

warmonger neoconman POS

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## nair

gau8av said:


> John McCain is live on CNN now saying the Ukrainian military don't have the capability to hit an airliner ... but we're not sure yet  sanction Russia and arm Ukraine  .. putin evil blabla
> 
> warmonger neoconman POS



I am watching it......


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## Lux de Veritas

Pakistani Exile said:


> We don't know enough to judge yet, but all throughout the thread you have done nothing but defend the civilian killing terrorists in eastern Ukraine.



I served in the infantry unit. A normal infantry weapon has no capability of shooting a bird at cruise attitude. That is the domain special SAM unit.

Not even all air defence artillery can pull that off.

I do not believe Ukraine rebels can do it.

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## MarkusS

waz said:


> These rebels had videos all over social media, claiming they had shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane. They were then hastily taken off when they discovered it was a passenger plane. This just shows their guilt.



Putin is ******. Thats basicly his worst case scenario. The sanctions yesterday were already hard. Nobody knows what happenes now.

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## Aepsilons

Me too.

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## flamer84

Lux de Veritas said:


> It is quite fishy to me that many PDF chaps jump in and accuse Russia. I have strong suspicious you guys are from intelligence community.
> 
> An introduction to the Ukraine fascist government.




What's the goverment relation to this ?

That separatist moron was bragging on twitter that he shot down an Ukr plane.What don't you understand ??? While he was celebrating 300 innocent lives were taken by those morons.

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## gau8av

McCain "it would open the gates for us to finally give Ukraine the _defensive_ capability"

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## Tunisian Marine Corps

MarkusS said:


> your terrorist friends already admitted it.  They celebrated the shot down.


give me the video to silence the Arabs pro those terrorists


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## MarkusS

Lux de Veritas said:


> I served in the infantry unit. A normal infantry weapon has no capability of shooting a bird at cruise attitude. That is the domain special SAM unit.
> 
> Not even all air defence artillery can pull that off.
> 
> I do not believe Ukraine rebels can do it.



Ukraine "rebels" is russian army without insignia.


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## vostok

State Aviation Service of Ukraine on July 8 banned flies "in order to ensure an adequate level of safety" and close the airspace over the Donetsk and Lugansk regions "for the implementation of any flight of civil aircraft in favor of state aircraft."
Air traffic controllers sitting in Kiev, not in Donetsk, as airport and control tower destroyed, hence the aircraft was specially sent from Kiev to the combat zone.

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## LordTyrannus

JonAsad said:


> RIP-
> Gaza was getting to much attention-
> That will again put Ukraine issue top in the press-



Noone cares Gaza.

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## Tunisian Marine Corps

Lux de Veritas said:


> A normal militia cannot pull that off. It is specially trained SAM unit.


they shot down jets 
a passenger plane is not that hard 1 9K38 Igla missile and say good bye


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## flamer84

MarkusS said:


> Ukraine "rebels" is russian army without insignia.




Game over for Putin in Ukraine...he will save his *** by condemning the separatists as terrorist.Ofcourse they are the scape goats,he armed them but this is politics for you.

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## MarkusS

vostok said:


> State Aviation Service of Ukraine on July 8 banned flies "in order to ensure an adequate level of safety" and close the airspace over the Donetsk and Lugansk regions "for the implementation of any flight of civil aircraft in favor of state aircraft."
> Air traffic controllers sitting in Kiev, not in Donetsk, as airport and control tower destroyed, hence the aircraft was specially sent from Kiev to the combat zone.



your goons celebrated the shot down vosty. They admitted it. You are *******.

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## LordTyrannus

You are all disgusting people. They thought they can fly over a warzone untouched.

That was a wrong thought!


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## waz

I'm surprised some people are denying this when the rebels themselves were celebrating all over social media, with videos and all.

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## Pakistani E

Lux de Veritas said:


> I served in the infantry unit. A normal infantry weapon has no capability of shooting a bird at cruise attitude. That is the domain special SAM unit.
> 
> Not even all air defence artillery can pull that off.
> 
> I do not believe Ukraine rebels can do it.



Why were the pro Russian rebels celebrating there kill until they discovered that it was in fact a civilian plane and not a Ukrainian military jet??

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## 544_delta

what is this world coming to??


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## LordTyrannus

Beidou2020 said:


> 100% a false flag event done by US private military contractors together with US government and Ukrainian government to blame Russia.
> 
> US = officially the king of false flags.
> 
> First 9/11, then MH370 now this.
> 
> US is now without a doubt a terrorist regime.


Stupid ****


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## Peaceful Civilian

vostok said:


> It was Ukrainian who shot down Israel plane above Black Sea
> Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I'm talking about Korean air line which you people shot down years ago. you people blamed some spies, and killed 269 people of passenger airline and Even accepted the responsibility.

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## F-22Raptor

The people here that think Ukraine shot this down are deluded and grasping at straws. The separatists in the east are the only ones that have been shooting down planes for weeks now. Their leader also was celebrating the shootdown just an hour before this went public. It's highly likely that the Russian sponsored separatists shot this down using a Russian provided anti aircraft system, and no its not that difficult to use if covert Russian agents have trained the separatists on how to operate the radar. Once you receive a lock-on it's easy to shoot. This is going to be a disaster for Putin and Russia. My thoughts and prayers go to the victims and families of this horrendous act.

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## nair

Why was that flight in that zone? especially when there are several flights shot down in past few weeks? 
I am sure the airliner must be aware of this conflict....


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## MarkusS

Lufthansa just announced that this airspace is not closed and they use it too. They just send 4 planes on a differnt route because the current events. Just to show you that Vosti tells you bullshit here.

Few days ago " rebels" celebrated to have systems to shot airplanes down at high altitude.

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## LordTyrannus

F-22Raptor said:


> The people here that think Ukraine shot this down are deluded and grasping at straws. The separatists in the east are the only ones that have been shooting down planes for weeks now. Their leader also was celebrating the shootdown just an hour before this went public. It's highly likely that the Russian sponsored separatists shot this down using a Russian provided anti aircraft system, and no its not that difficult to use if covert Russian agents have trained the separatists on how to operate the radar. Once you receive a lock-on it's easy to shoot. This is going to be a disaster for Putin and Russia. My thoughts and prayers go to the victims and families of this horrendous act.



Who cares who shot that down, you dumb american?


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## Pakistani E

Beidou2020 said:


> 100% a false flag event done by US private military contractors together with US government and Ukrainian government to blame Russia.
> 
> US = officially the king of false flags.
> 
> First 9/11, then MH370 now this.
> 
> US is now without a doubt a terrorist regime.



Who's been shooting down planes for the last few days?


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## MarkusS

nair said:


> Why was that flight in that zone? especially when there are several flights shot down in past few weeks?
> I am sure the airliner must be aware of this conflict....



the airspace was not closed. At the time of the shot down at least 4 Lufthansa machines were in same airspace. Dont blame Air Malaysia for Putins barbarism. This could have been a Lufthansa machine!

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## gau8av

Tunisian Marine Corps said:


> they shot down jets
> a passenger plane is not that hard 1 9K38 Igla missile and say good bye


igla flight ceiling : 11,000 feet

this one was cruising at 30k+ feet

a deliberate diversion(gross negligence?) through contested airspace in a warzone by the Kiev ATC seems the most possible to me

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## Aepsilons

MarkusS said:


> Lufthansa just announced that this airspace is not closed and they use it too. They just send 4 planes on a differnt route because the current events. Just to show you that Vosti tells you bullshit here.
> 
> Few days ago " rebels" celebrated to have systems to shot airplanes down at high altitude.




Yes, i was just watching Japan News and they said that many air lines are re routing its flights through Ukraine - Russia.

Other airlines that are re-routing include: Air France, Lufthansa, All Nippon Airways, Asiana Airlines etc....

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## Lux de Veritas

flamer84 said:


> What's the goverment relation to this ?
> 
> That separatist moron was bragging on twitter that he shot down an Ukr plane.What don't you understand ??? While he was celebrating 300 innocent lives were taken by those morons.





Tunisian Marine Corps said:


> they shot down jets
> a passenger plane is not that hard 1 9K38 Igla missile and say good bye



The cruise attitude of airline is more than 10km. Igla cannot reach. To pull it off, this kind of SAM artillery need good radar and other ground unit support. 

The only suspicious bad guy is Ukraine government.


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## nair

Peaceful Civilian said:


> I'm talking about Korean air line which you people shot down years ago. you people blamed some spies, and killed 269 people of passenger airline and Even accepted the responsibility.

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## flamer84

nair said:


> Why was that flight in that zone? especially when there are several flights shot down in past few weeks?
> I am sure the airliner must be aware of this conflict....




The thing is that the plane was flying at 10.000+ metres,at that altitude it should have been obvious that it was not a Ukr military plane as it was about to leave Ukr ai spece in a few minutes but those brainless monkeys at the radar on the ground couldn't put 2 and 2 together so they just shot it down.

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## MarkusS

Lux de Veritas said:


> The cruise attitude of airline is more than 10km. Igla cannot reach. To pull it off, this kind of SAM artillery need good radar and other ground unit support.
> 
> The only suspicious bad guy is Ukraine government.



This is laughable. The russian terroristd already admitted it.


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## LordTyrannus

Lux de Veritas said:


> The cruise attitude of airline is more than 10km. Igla cannot reach. To pull it off, this kind of SAM artillery need good radar and other ground unit support.
> 
> The only suspicious bad guy is Ukraine government.



Dont talk shit! Ukrainian government does not shoot passenger planes. only crazy rebels with questionable command structure do such things!


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## flamer84

Lux de Veritas said:


> The cruise attitude of airline is more than 10km. Igla cannot reach. To pull it off, this kind of SAM artillery need good radar and other ground unit support.
> 
> The only suspicious bad guy is Ukraine government.




Again,maybe you're impared or something...the separatist were bragging on twitter that they shot down an Ukr plane just after the air liner crushed.What eludes you ?

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## Lux de Veritas

LordTyrannus said:


> Dont talk shit! Ukrainian government does not shoot passenger planes. only crazy rebels with questionable command structure do such things!



I do not think rebels can pull this off. I was former infantry.



flamer84 said:


> Again,maybe you're impared or something...the separatist were bragging on twitter that they shot down an Ukr plane just after the air liner crushed.What eludes you ?



The separatist denied. 

The Fingerpointing Begins: Ukraine Accuses Rebels Of Shooting Down Airplane, Rebels Deny | Zero Hedge


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## MarkusS

Beidou2020 said:


> Ukrainian and US using thus to Blane Russia. This is 100% done by the terrorist US regime.
> 
> Separatists have no such weapons to shoot down commercial airliners.



too bad that separatists celebrated the shot down. What now? let me try to bend it into your propaganda world. So you think the seperatists are ukrainian agents. lol

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## LordTyrannus

Beidou2020 said:


> Ukrainian and US using thus to Blane Russia. This is 100% done by the terrorist US regime.
> 
> Separatists have no such weapons to shoot down commercial airliners.



Of course they have. Soviet junk is available everywhere in Ukraine.


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## nair

flamer84 said:


> The thing is that the plane was flying at 10.000+ metres,at that altitude it should have been obvious that it was not a Ukr military plane as it was about to leave Ukr ai spece in a few minutes but those brainless monkeys at the radar on the ground couldn't put 2 and 2 together so they just shot it down.



Previous day they shot an ukrainian fighter at 20k ft..... they might have thought of a possibility of an aircraft took off from far away base and flying in this area... May be?

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## Strigon

Whatever the cause might be..I think its very reckless of airlines to fly over dangerous zones to save some money. Maybe someone in the administration now has realized this.

Also why such events happening to Malaysian airlines only? There def. is something going on behind the scenes. Much more than shooting down.

But seriously...295 people that had nothing to do with anyone's conflict paid the price for some moron's lunacy.


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## F-22Raptor

The people blaming the US are morons. Plain and simple....

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## LordTyrannus

Lux de Veritas said:


> I do not think rebels can pull this off. I was former infantry.



Why? A bunch of morons can take over a buk system and push some buttons. These kind of systems are automated for maximum efficience.


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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489823109701066752

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## vostok

Green line - the usual route of flight, red - today's route. Avia controllers sitting in Kiev - they led aircraft.

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## waz

The rebels were bragging about their ability to shoot down planes at high altitude. They must be pleased with themselves now, or they were a few hours ago....

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## MarkusS

Rahul9090 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489823109701066752



Lufthansa just announced the same


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## nair

MarkusS said:


> the airspace was not closed. At the time of the shot down at least 4 Lufthansa machines were in same airspace. Dont blame Air Malaysia for Putins barbarism. This could have been a Lufthansa machine!



I saw a picture displayed in CNN channel, which showed several aircraft in that region when this flight went down.... the picture was taken from a website which tracks flights in real time....

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## Lux de Veritas

LordTyrannus said:


> Why? A bunch of morons can take over a buk system and push some buttons. These kind of systems are automated for maximum efficience.



You think its so easy to man such system You need radar unit.You need good radar man to inform you arrival of a big bird. Idiot.


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## gau8av

Ukraine release official statement saying it was a Russian buk missile 

most likely their own

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## LordTyrannus

Rahul9090 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489823109701066752



Turkish airlines planes crash themselfs because of bad maintenance and pilot error.


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## Pakistani E

Beidou2020 said:


> Ukrainian and US using thus to Blane Russia. This is 100% done by the terrorist US regime.
> 
> Separatists have no such weapons to shoot down commercial airliners.



'According to an adviser to the Ukraine Interior Minister, the Malaysia plane was shot down by a Buk ground-to-air missile system. These systems require additional training to use and are launched from trucks. *The *AP* saw a launch system resembling Buk missiles in the pro-Russian held Ukrainian town of Snizhne early Thursday.' *
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-separatists-have-shot-down-multiple-aircraft-over-the-past-month-2014-7#ixzz37kQaBHC9

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## TheNoob

This is too suspicious........

The losing side might have pulled this off.

I dont think its russia for now.

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## LordTyrannus

Beidou2020 said:


> US and Ukraine 100% behind this false flag. No question US is doing this to blame Russia. False flag is an an American expertise and this clearly has US hands all over this.
> 
> No other country does false flags except the US.



Nonsense!


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## flamer84

Lux de Veritas said:


> You think its so easy to man such system You need radar unit.




Hence Russian advisors were on the ground for sure.Q.E.D

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## F-22Raptor

Beidou2020 said:


> US desperately wanted an event to blame Russia so they used Kiev and private military contractors from the US using US weapons to shoot down innocent commercial airliners.
> 
> Shameful behaviour by the terrorist Yankee regime.



Why has this guy not been banned yet?

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## nair

LordTyrannus said:


> Turkish airlines planes crash themselfs because of bad maintenance and pilot error.


When was the last time you heard such a news?

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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489823840432697344


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## Beidou2020

Pakistani Exile said:


> 'According to an adviser to the Ukraine Interior Minister, the Malaysia plane was shot down by a Buk ground-to-air missile system. These systems require additional training to use and are launched from trucks. *The *AP* saw a launch system resembling Buk missiles in the pro-Russian held Ukrainian town of Snizhne early Thursday.' *
> Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-separatists-have-shot-down-multiple-aircraft-over-the-past-month-2014-7#ixzz37kQaBHC9



It was operated by Ukrainian military with the help of private military contractors from US.

This has all the hallmarks of a US false flag operation. 

Terrorism is in the blood of Americans.


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## Pakistani E

TheNoob said:


> This is too suspicious........
> 
> The losing side might have pulled this off.
> 
> I dont think its russia for now.



So just because you hate the USA, you will automatically absolve all its enemies of any crimes they commit?


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## MarkusS

Comes even worse, news say that the "seperatists" do not allow rescue teams to the aircraft.

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## LordTyrannus

Lux de Veritas said:


> You think its so easy to man such system You need radar unit.You need good radar man to inform you arrival of a big bird. Idiot.



Radars are cheap soviet kit. Available everywhere.


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## waz

MarkusS said:


> Comes even worse, news say that the "seperatists" do not allow rescue teams to the aircraft.



Just seen the report myself. They are preventing people. They are probably cleaning up their handiwork. They should give Putin a ring to send some official teams to help them out.

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## Pakistani E

Beidou2020 said:


> It was operated by Ukrainian military with the help of private military contractors from US.
> 
> This has all the hallmarks of a US false flag operation.
> 
> Terrorism is in the blood of Americans.



Now your just being childish. I am not pro American by any stretch of the imagination but your insistence in defending terrorists only because they oppose the US, stands on some very shaky moral grounds.

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## Lux de Veritas

flamer84 said:


> Hence Russian advisors were on the ground for sure.Q.E.D



That could be a possibility. Regulars need to be involve but moving batteries of SAM will leave a lot of footprint. USA has remote sensing system and may be able to expose Russia if she has done it.

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## Aepsilons

F-22Raptor said:


> Why has this guy not been banned yet?



Just ignore the troll.

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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489824863725813760


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## Strigon

LordTyrannus said:


> Reckless people always die. Who fukin cares?!



295 on board were not reckless but ordinary people going for business or to meet their loved ones. The authorities that planned the flight path over Ukraine are.

But I guess now one can say don't fly Malaysian, that's being reckless.



> Who fukin cares?!



That sort of mentality differentiates b/w humans and a species worse than animals.

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## Lux de Veritas

LordTyrannus said:


> Radars are cheap soviet kit. Available everywhere.



You are crazy. You never serve the arm forces, dont you?


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## MarkusS

waz said:


> Just seen the report myself. They are preventing people. They are probably cleaning up their handiwork. They should give Putin a ring to send some official teams to help them out.



I think czar Putin boils right now. Thats his personal Titanic.


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## nair

Now the entire world focus is going to shift from gaza to this incident.... They are going to track this news vigorously for some time from now......


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## F-22Raptor

Rahul9090 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489824863725813760


 23 US citizens? The annihilation of the separatists has my full support.

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## Star Wars

vostok said:


> Green line - the usual route of flight, red - today's route. Avia controllers sitting in Kiev - they led aircraft.




Something is really very wrong here


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## JanjaWeed

Donatello said:


> It's not easy to route planes over different routes. Planes must fly within designated radar zones and flight paths.


Not necessarily. Airlines can avoid a particular airspace in exceptional circumstances. There have been announcements from quite a few airlines already since this tragedy, stating they will avoid this airspace with immediate effect.


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## waz

MarkusS said:


> I think czar Putin boils right now. Thats his personal Titanic.



Unlike the Titanic, this is no accident. He has armed these crazed fanatics and this is the outcome. If he thought he was isolated before, this will seal it for sure.

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## LordTyrannus

Lux de Veritas said:


> You are crazy. You never serve the arm forces, dont you?



I served in wars you even cant imagine.


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## MarkusS

The Buk System has been photographed, Seperatists were mot able to hide it.

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## Rahul9090

Nine British citizens on board downed Malaysian plane - ITV News


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## waz

F-22Raptor said:


> 23 US citizens? The annihilation of the separatists has my full support.



Oh wow......RIP.

That is simply going to blow everything up.


----------



## Counter-Errorist

Removed pictures showing the dead - some members understandably found them disturbing,


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## F-22Raptor

This is going to be catastrophic for Russia.


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## LordTyrannus

Beidou2020 said:


> US is so desperate that they are using false flag activities to achieve their geopolitical goals.
> 
> Using commercial airliners in false flags is a US tactic.
> 
> They used it in 9/11 false flag and now this.
> 
> This is terrorism of the worst kind by US regime.



Russia wanted to play tough man.


----------



## waz

Rahul9090 said:


> Nine British citizens on board downed Malaysian plane - ITV News



Things were already bad between the UK and Russia. Now relations will be wreaked.


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## nair

There is a video shown in CNN which shows the blast during the crash..... Surprisingly there is no flame before the crash (atleat i cant see it from video)


----------



## TheNoob

Pakistani Exile said:


> So just because you hate the USA, you will automatically absolve all its enemies of any crimes they commit?



the wut m8?

-_-

false flag


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## Counter-Errorist

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489795929940430848


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## Hashshāshīn

23 US and 9 UK citizens? Russia is finished.

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## Counter-Errorist

Beidou2020 said:


> News coming in now that US private military contractors Blackwater had a major hand in this.
> 
> Apparently a US missile was used to shoot down the plane.



If you're making highly controversial claims, please provide a credible source to validate it


----------



## LordTyrannus

Beidou2020 said:


> BREAKING NEWS:
> 
> US missile was used to shoot down plane. This confirms US government is involved in this tragedy.



you are funny dude!


----------



## waz

Counter-Errorist said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489806899916050432
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489806899916050432
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489813938255986688



Oh my Lord....That is horrible.


----------



## Serpentine

flamer84 said:


> RIP to the dead.
> 
> The Russians f-ed big time on this one.They are now a terrorist state.The world should take drastic measures against this rogue state.



It's not clear what happenned yet. Besides, U.S has also shot down civilian air planes and that makes them a terrorist state too, right?

Let's wait and see who is responsible for this. Any scumbag who is behind this should be brought to justice.


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## flamer84

MarkusS said:


> The Buk System has been photographed, Seperatists were mot able to hide it.




News in the last hour.........Russians in the East delete fb/twitter/etc photos of BUK syatems they proudly presented until now...bad news clowns ! Welcome to the internet,it doesn't go away by deleting now.

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## ChennaiDude

Beidou2020 said:


> BREAKING NEWS:
> 
> US missile was used to shoot down plane. This confirms US government is involved in this tragedy.


Lets Troll another day..Not today..This is some serious shit...RIP to the deceased passengers....!

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## Hashshāshīn

Beidou2020 said:


> All done by US forces in Ukraine. There is zero proof of Russian involvement. Missile was a US missile.


Ok, what is the proof of US involvement?


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## Pakistani E

I'd just like to offer my deepest sympathies to relatives of the deceased. I truly hope those responsible for this crime are brought to justice. I think the mods should have a look at this thread, there are some serious disgusting trolls on here, it is utterly in bad taste to be trolling in such a tragic situation. *You trolls should be ashamed of yourselves regardless of who was responsible.*

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## Peaceful Civilian

Rahul9090 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489823840432697344


This was the objective of Russia, "Do not fly any plane from this territory". Mission accomplished.
Now, Russia is happy that No spy can do any activity in this region. But it was barbaric , and inhuman act.
RIP to the poor souls


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## flamer84

Hashshāshīn said:


> Ok, what is the proof of US involvement?



Don't indulge him pls.


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## MarkusS

please dont post pictures of the victims. show dignity.

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## Pakistani E

I'd just like to offer my deepest sympathies to relatives of the deceased. I truly hope those responsible for this crime are brought to justice. I think the mods should have a look at this thread, there are some serious disgusting trolls on here, it is utterly in bad taste to be trolling in such a tragic situation. *You trolls should be ashamed of yourselves regardless of who was responsible.*

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## Lux de Veritas

LordTyrannus said:


> I served in wars you even cant imagine.



You idiot. You have no idea about infantry style weapon systems and their capability.

Below is what BBC say about shooting down a airliner at cruise attitude. The thread here seems to be full of USA lapdog. I would not believe Ukrainian rebels can pull that off.

If Rebel did it, USA can always provide footprints of SAM movement, to incriminate them. Such as SAM system will leave significant foot print and they requires regulars. Militia could not do it.

BBC News - Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone

_A defence expert has told the BBC that shooting down a plane at 10,000m (32,000ft) would have required a long- range surface-to-air missile - possibly guided by radar.

That suggests it is unlikely it could have been downed by a portable air defence missile, or Manpad, which has a much shorter range.

The only other possibility is for an aircraft at that height to be downed by a fighter carrying air-to-air missiles.

The US will have access to satellite imagery that should be able to identify ultra-violet plumes if a long-range surface-to-air missile was fired.





_


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## Sherlock Holmes

Man this is sad news. RIP.


----------



## Hashshāshīn

MarkusS said:


> please dont post pictures of the victims. show dignity.


That's funny, considering just yesterday you said your shoes were more important than Palestinians.

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## gau8av

flamer84 said:


> News in the last hour.........Russians in the East delete fb/twitter/etc photos of BUK syatems they proudly presented until now...bad news clowns ! Welcome to the internet,it doesn't go away by deleting now.


source that confirms the pic was being 'proudly presented' by the militia ?

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## Counter-Errorist

Beidou2020 said:


> It's all over the news, US missile was used.


Then should be a fairly simply task to find a source then. Care to help me on that?

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## LordTyrannus

Beidou2020 said:


> US smuggled its missiles into Ukraine to shoot down airliner to blame Russia. US thought it would fool everyone but the world sees right through US terrorist activities.
> 
> Russian separatists have no US missiles. This confirms this is 100% US military operation.



Lying is a sin dude.


----------



## Zabaniyah

MarkusS said:


> easy answer. russia supplier terrorists with technology to shot down airplanes. Those are stupid morons like the self proclaimed mayor of slawansk. My guess is that ome of those morons simply made a mistake. That happens when you give technology to those morons. Now it will get interesting. I feel sorry for the victims. The brak up happemed at cruisimg altitude. I hope the hull did crack early so people got unconcious and did not suffer all the way down.



They have shot down aircraft within that area in the past. 

So the chance of militants shooting it down is quite high.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Over 300 ppl .. 23 Americans.. Rip .. 


Never travel on a Malaysian airliner ..


----------



## Hashshāshīn

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Never travel on a Malaysian airliner ..


Because getting shot by a missile was the airline's fault.

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## sahaliyan

RIP,Now the Russian terrorists should be wipe out

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## Arzamas 16

Hashshāshīn said:


> 23 US and 9 UK citizens? *Russia is finished*.




I am afraid your going to be very disappointed

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hashshāshīn said:


> Because getting shot by a missile was the airline's fault.



Na Malaysian airliners tend to vanish or get shot down killing hundreds.. **** seems Malay air is cursed or somethin.


----------



## Hashshāshīn

Arzamas 16 said:


> I am afraid your going to be very disappointed


If there really were US and UK citizens, and it is proven Russia was involved, you can be sure of something severe.

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## Strigon

Hashshāshīn said:


> Prime example of why Pakistan is a shithole




Lets not generalize whole country based on one poster there.

But I guess at the rate events are unfolding around the world, the whole world is a shithole...Including your country which you are ashamed to show.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Beidou2020 said:


> Apparently Ukraine used BUK missile to shoot down this plabe. USA missiles were also there. Definitely US operation to frame Russia. No question about it.



A Ukrainian airliner was shot by Russian airforce just recently


----------



## flamer84

*80 Children dead *

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## Parwaz-e-Shaheen

this is tragic! Malaysian Airline was already coming back from a unsolved tragedy and now this! I do hope this plane wasn't shot down.. this might just be the reason enough to initiate a war in already civil war struck Ukraine and Russian influence in the region would give USA and NATO to react as well.. anyway the immediate concern should be the plane catastrophe and the poor passengers who lost their lives

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## Aepsilons

flamer84 said:


> *80 Children dead *




They are all in Heaven. God is Merciful...!

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## MarkusS

flamer84 said:


> *80 Children dead *



Putin has become an international pariah by now. A persona non grata. Russia is finished with this.


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## waz

I'm sure there is an explanation folks. 

The Malays being the tiny unnoticed folks they are, were secretly supplying arms to the Ukrainian military by way of passenger jet. They were literally opening up the backdoors and dropping weapons down. The US had contracted the Malay special mission so therefore it is the US's fault. 

By the way to the Kremlin. Please don't use this, I have copyright protection.


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## Basel

Very sad incident RIP to departed souls, whoever shot down this plane should be brought to justice its just cold blood murder of civilians, but what surprises me is why commercial planes are flying over a conflict zone??


----------



## ozzy22

Hashshāshīn said:


> If there really were US and UK citizens, and it is proven Russia was involved, you can be sure of something severe.


Nothing like that is going to happen, the international community will condemn it and move on


----------



## Kaalapani

MarkusS said:


> the flight path is not banned, used from hundrds of airliners each day.





MarkusS said:


> Putin has become an international pariah by now. A persona non grata. Russia is finished with this.




There is nothing which cab touch Russia.Come out of your dreams.wake up.

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## Aepsilons

MarkusS said:


> Putin has become an international pariah by now. A persona non grata. Russia is finished with this.



Yes, I agree. 300 souls , mostly foreign citizens who are not partakers of the Ukrainian and Russian debacle.

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## flamer84

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswxsDECYAARu_D.jpg

And the translation :

"This is what we have shot AN-26 down, this is captured by DPR "Buk". We have repaired it, it works)))"

Yes.....it works indeed.

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## MarkusS

ozzy22 said:


> Nothing like that is going to happen, the international community will condemn it and move on



doubtful. just yesterday hard sanctions against russia were installed. Now this...and you know whats going on


----------



## gau8av

did they chose an "expendable" asian country ? Imagine the uproar had this been a British Airways/United flight 


look at CNN all over this like flies on shit (and pushing their story down our throat) 


Kiev ATC sent it to it's death, to use as false flag against Russia or was it just a case of gross incompetence is the question


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

A launcher similar to the Buk missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists earlier Thursday near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne, which is held by the rebels

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## Arzamas 16

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Strigon

Hashshāshīn said:


> It is not one poster. After reading 1000s of comments/pictures and videos, it is clear to me that Pakistanis are the most delusional and self hating people on the planet.



Or maybe you just have a very deep hate against Pakistanis. 

Here read this line by me, a Pakistani : I love the world.

What did you understand? Do I love the world or hate it.

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## LordTyrannus

flamer84 said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswxsDECYAARu_D.jpg
> 
> And the translation :
> 
> "This is what we have shot AN-26 down, this is captured by DPR "Buk". We have repaired it, it works)))"
> 
> Yes.....it works indeed.



And a little infanterist here called me crazy. I was also infanterist and got some medal or something. i cant remember.


----------



## flamer84

gau8av said:


> did they chose an "expendable" asian country ? Imagine the uproar had this been a British Airways/United flight
> 
> 
> look at CNN all over this like flies on shit (and pushing their story down our throat)
> 
> 
> Kiev ATC sent it to it's death, to use as false flag against Russia or was it just a case of gross incompetence is the question




Yes...they chose Asians at least 23 US citizens,9 UK,70 Netherlands and others from the EU......

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## Aepsilons

Whatever leverage Putin had, just went down with this jet.

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## Lux de Veritas

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Yes, I agree. 300 souls , mostly foreign citizens who are not partakers of the Ukrainian and Russian debacle.



By putting up so many posts on Japanese military and lack of critical thinking on this thread, I am quite suspicious of your agenda.

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## Kaalapani

MarkusS said:


> doubtful. just yesterday hard sanctions against russia were installed. Now this...and you know whats going on



This means Russia will now gang rape Ukrain with out any hesitation.


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## Arzamas 16

MarkusS said:


> Putin has become an international pariah by now. A persona non grata.




The West doesn't represent the whole world you Italian ******.



> Russia is finished with this




Like I said too the other guy, be prepared to b*e very disappointed*

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## LordTyrannus

Lux de Veritas said:


> By putting up so many posts on Japanese military and lack of critical thinking on this thread, I am quite suspicious of your agenda.



You called me crazy. I am waiting for an apology mr.!!!


----------



## Star Wars

> A Spanish Air-Traffic Controller based in Ukraine has tweeted a few messages which seems to be saying that the passenger plane was being escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets just minutes prior to its 'demolition'... I used google translate so I don't trust the translations to be completely accurate.



this looks more and more as a deliberately done event


----------



## Luftwaffe

post: 5930487, member: 151420"]Putin has become an international pariah by now. A persona non grata. Russia is finished with this.[/quote]

Take a hike racist, russia is never finished. Until there is investigations and rational explanation there can be no blame.


----------



## Devil Soul

*Malaysia Airlines plane crash in Ukraine*
[an error occurred while processing this directive]
A Malaysian airliner with 295 people on board has crashed in Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. The following images include some taken at the site of the crash.





Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 is thought to have crashed near the settlement of Grabovo, as the Ukrainian government and rebels traded allegations it was shot down.



It had been due to enter Russian airspace when contact was lost, Malaysia Airlines said.



The plane, pictured here taking off earlier on Thursday, was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.



Rescue workers are at the site of what is believed to be wreckage of the jet.



Russian separatists are believed to have shot down two Ukrainian military planes in recent days.



This is the second plane crash involving a Malaysia Airlines plane this year. Flight MH370 from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing went missing in March.


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## Beidou2020

MarkusS said:


> doubtful. just yesterday hard sanctions against russia were installed. Now this...and you know whats going on



Sanctions have had ZERO impact on Russia. Russia has other BRICS.

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## LordTyrannus

Star Wars said:


> this looks more and more as a deliberately done event



I am sure ukrainian government wanted to risk foreigners lifes to get more attention from the world. This is absolutely true!

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## Donatello

JanjaWeed said:


> Not necessarily. Airlines can avoid a particular airspace in exceptional circumstances. There have been announcements from quite a few airlines already since this tragedy, stating they will avoid this airspace with immediate effect.



Up until now, civilians planes had not crashed. Now, after the fact, the cost of making such a mistake is too damn high. Hence, inevitably they will have to re-route or passengers won't fly those airlines that take this route. I am sure if an airline were to tell passengers now that tickets will cost a bit more, passengers would be happy to pay, than be shot down. I remember I flew on Gulf Air flight from Bahrain to London back in 2008, and i went right over Iraq. Thinking about the US Navy-Iran Air incident, it did make me nervous.


----------



## Beidou2020

Star Wars said:


> this looks more and more as a deliberately done event



By Kiev regime forces.


----------



## TheNoob

Man i dont want to sound cruel or anything.
Nor do i like russia much.

But how about a conspiracy?
Here.
The zionist, illuminati and JEW NATO wanted to take the worlds attention off from gaza so they can achieve the mass murder of muslims?
(not serious) @Victory


Anyway.
Sorry if i offended anyone here.
Suspicious stuff pops up like this .-.

RIP to the pessengers.
RIP to the people israel kills everday...


----------



## Victory

waiting for a guy to say JEW NATO did this to get away from the international attention


----------



## danger007

What happened to M A. . Rest in peace. ..


I will not travel in Malaysia Airlines...In my lifetime. ..

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## Donatello

Counter-Errorist said:


>



Oh lord, i can see dead people in there. They shouldn't post these pictures. It's the murder of the highest kind, if proven to be shot down. Putin needs to seriously think.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Obama the monkey on bbc right now.

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## Donatello

The Lockerbie bombing was the last nail in the coffin of Pan-Am. Would a similar fate fall upon Malaysian airlines?


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## Star Wars

How does one find passports in such a mint condition after an Crash ? this is certainly odd ...


----------



## gau8av

or maybe the nazis just shot it down themselves, with blessings from uncle sam of course 



flamer84 said:


> Yes...they chose Asians at least 23 US citizens,9 UK,70 Netherlands and others from the EU......


I said "expendable", those numbers would have been a lot higher had it been a UK/US airliner, is there a breakdown of the nationalities of the victims ?

and sorry I don't mean to drag this into wild conspiracy theories but I'm just not buying the "almost official" line

but in an hour or two we'll probably see that propagandist whore Jen Psaki blabbering "it was putin, it was putin"

so let's not jump to any conclusions just yet


----------



## Götterdämmerung

Funny that all the US-puppets keep telling about the former USSR shot down a Korean passenger plane and forget to mention the US shooting down an Iranian passenger plane as well.

My gut feeling tells me that it's a false flag operation.

Incidentally, today, there was an article from the former German speaker of defense policy and vice-president of the OSCE, Willy Wimmer, warning us of US scheme against Europe and Russia in the Ukraine crisis. He is party member of the current German government, CDU.

Google translate it if you are interested:



> *Alarmstufe Rot*
> Willy Wimmer 17.07.2014
> *Ein Gastkommentar des ehemaligen verteidigungspolitischen Sprechers der CDU/CSU und Ex-Vizepräsidenten der OSZE zum Ukraine-Konflikt*
> *Seit dem Versuch, die Ukraine-Krise wegen der Aufstände in Kiew durch die Außenminister Fabius, Sikorski und Steinmeier zu lösen, zieht es sich bis zu den jüngsten und angeblichen Vereinbarungen zwischen Poroschenko, Putin und Hollande wie ein roter Faden durch die kriegsgefährlich gewordene Ukraine-Krise. Es wird der nachdrückliche Beweis dafür erbracht, dass jeder europäische Lösungsversuch durch den ukrainischen Präsidenten und seine Master in Washington hintertrieben werden. Die europäischen Staaten müssen nicht erst seit den offenen Worten von Frau Nuland aus dem US-Außenministerium erkennen, dass das Drehbuch für das, was in der Ukraine zum offenen Krieg mit Nachbarn führen wird, in Washington und in keiner europäischen Hauptstadt liegt.*
> Es ging in der Erwartung für das Endspiel für die Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft völlig unter, dass offenbar von ukrainischen Stellungen Ziele auf russischem Staatsgebiet unter Feuer genommen worden sind. Zufall oder nicht? Aus der Reaktion in Kiew kann jeder entnehmen, dass Vorfälle wie die von diesem Wochenende den dortigen Machthabern völlig egal sind. Folgen haben sie ohnehin nicht zu befürchten. Dafür sorgen andere. Nicht zuletzt der noch im Amt befindliche NATO-Generalsekretär Rasmussen.
> 
> Wochenlang hat er die russische Seite aufgefordert, die eigenen Truppen von der russischen Seite der ukrainisch-russischen Grenze abzuziehen. Jetzt wissen wir auch, warum diese Aufforderung erfolgt ist. In einer Zeit, in der sich die eine Hälfte Europas in Ferien befindet und ein weiterer Teil sich mit Fußball beschäftigt, brennt zwischen der Ukraine und Russland die Zündschnur. Von dem Massenmord auf dem Maidan-Platz in Kiew angefangen, wurde diese Lunte für etwas größeres bewusst gelegt.
> 
> Dabei spielte es für den Westen und hier vor allem für die grenzenlos willfährige "Qualitätspresse" keine Rolle, aufzuklären, wer die Menschen auf dem Platz erschossen hat, um dem Umsturz die "Krone" aufzusetzen. Bislang konnten die Opfer solcher Massaker davon ausgehen, dass der Westen um ihrer selbst willen die Täter anklagt. Heute ist gewiss, dass westliches Handeln eine Frage der Opportunität ist. Das nennt man gemeinhin "moralische Verkommenheit".
> 
> In Kiew und in der Frage, wer sich dort allgemein westlicher Unterstützung erfreut, kann sehr gut festgestellt werden, wie wenig von einer ehemals stolzen "westlichen Wertegemeinschaft" übrig ist. Die Ukraine scheint die Blaupause für weiteres Vorgehen in Europa und darüber hinaus zu werden. Das Vorgehen des ukrainischen Machthabers Poroschenko gegenüber dem Osten seines eigenen Landes (und vor allem der dort lebenden Bevölkerung) hat nichts mehr von dem an sich, wie Schwierigkeiten im eigenen Land beigelegt oder angegangen werden können. Das ist Krieg gegen die eigene Bevölkerung - und zwar mit einer angeblich aus dem Boden gestampften "Nationalgarde", die aus den faschistischen Gruppen, vor allem aus der Westukraine, geschaffen worden ist.
> 
> Den Menschen in der Ostukraine wird derart demonstriert, dass jene Kräfte zurückkehren, die in der Vergangenheit millionenfaches Leid nicht nur über diese Landstriche gebracht haben. Europa sollte sich schämen, diesen Gestalten auch nur den Schimmer eines Verständnisses zukommen zu lassen. Das amerikanisch-Kiew-ukrainische Ziel dieses Vorgehens wird auf den offenen Krieg mit Russland aus sein, um letztlich die Ukraine als Bollwerk nutzen zu können - nicht nur gegen Russland. Sollte es gelingen, die Ukraine derart den USA dienstbar zu machen, wird es einen kompletten Riegel unter US-Kontrolle zwischen dem Baltikum über Polen und die Ukraine zum Schwarzen Meer geben. Ein amerikanisches Ziel, das auf dem NATO-Gipfel in Riga 2006 schon einmal angesteuert worden ist.
> 
> Da dieser amerikanische Vorstoß am Widerstand der Europäer seinerzeit gescheitert ist, hat jetzt Washington die Daumenschrauben gegenüber den unbotmäßigen Europäern angesetzt: Dann eben Totalkontrolle über die Ukraine ohne die Europäer. Damit können gleich zwei substantielle Ziele in dramatischer Weise umgesetzt werden: Washington schmeißt Russland aus Europa hinaus und bekommt Westeuropa unter Komplett-Kontrolle. Da mag es traditionell noch so gute Wirtschaftsbeziehungen zwischen Russland und Deutschland geben.
> 
> Washington dreht diesen Hahn in Zukunft ab oder Moskau kriecht zu Kreuze und liefert nicht nur das russische Erdgas und Erdöl amerikanischer Kontrolle aus, wie es zu Zeiten von Yukos fast gelungen wäre. Die Grenzverletzungen durch ukrainische Einheiten an der russisch/ukrainischen Grenze sind der Vorgeschmack dafür, wie hoch das "Preisschild" ausfallen dürfte.


----------



## flamer84

vkontakte page *Igor Girkin (Strelkov)*http://i.imgur.com/fi4Zkx6.png

translation: _“Just downed an AN-26 in Torez region, lying somewhere near the Progress mine. We warned – no flying in our sky. Here’s video proof of another bird down. Bird fell behind the terricon, didn’t touch the residential area. *No civillians harmed* (sic!). There’s also information about another downed jet, possibly SU"


@gau8av Good enough for you ?_

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## Hashshāshīn

Star Wars said:


> How does one find passports in such a mint condition after an Crash ? this is certainly odd ...


Because passports are usually inside suitcases, surrounded by clothes


----------



## gau8av

she's on now


----------



## Beidou2020

Donatello said:


> Oh lord, i can see dead people in there. They shouldn't post these pictures. It's the murder of the highest kind, if proven to be shot down. Putin needs to seriously think.



It's US and Kiev. Putin has zero involvement.



gau8av said:


> she's on now



What happened?


----------



## Star Wars

Hashshāshīn said:


> Because passports are usually inside suitcases, surrounded by clothes



Look at the pics of the crash site , the whole plane is literally dust

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## TheNoob

Star Wars said:


> How does one find passports in such a mint condition after an Crash ? this is certainly odd ...



Their usually in bags....


----------



## flamer84

gau8av said:


> she's on now



Those emoticons in such a thread are in bad taste.

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## gau8av

Beidou2020 said:


> What happened?



didn't say anything for now.. "has no further information etc"

but she should be back in an hour or so screaming "bloody murder, Putin putin putin !!" 

let's wait and see


----------



## Strigon

Menace2Society said:


> After reading 1 post from you, I have realised you are a complete moron and a closet homosexual.



Couldnt have said it any better. Kudos


----------



## StarCraft_ZT

Malaysia Airline, after you make all the compensation to the dead, just disband


----------



## Zabaniyah

Beidou2020 said:


> Separatists don't have technology to shoot down commercial airliners. US and Ukraine does.



Well, nothing is being ruled out here. That being said, they have shot down aircraft before:










Who knows that other weapons they'd acquire?

As one user wisely said, whatever leverage Putin had may go down with that plane.

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## gau8av

flamer84 said:


> Those emoticons in such a thread are in bad taste.


oops, sorry about that.. but you can see the western media already deployed and running a major operation telling us what to think 

and I think CNN etc are a bit of a joke so..


----------



## acid rain

Why the hell are they messing with the accident scene and debris?

Is this in rebel territory? is the site accessible to boeing or malaysian airline authorities?


----------



## flamer84

gau8av said:


> oops, sorry about that.. but you can see the western media already deployed and running a major operation telling us what to think
> 
> and I think CNN etc are a bit of a joke so..




Strelkov allready told us what happenned as i've showed you.Now noone can claim otherwise.


----------



## IR1907

Star Wars said:


> How does one find passports in such a mint condition after an Crash ? this is certainly odd ...


I wonder why people are sometimes so dumb and with IQ compared to a ape.

IS IT POSSIBLE that the passports were concealed well enough to survive a crash impact ?

^^consider the above

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## BestUsernameEver

flamer84 said:


> vkontakte page *Igor Girkin (Strelkov)*http://i.imgur.com/fi4Zkx6.png
> 
> translation: _“Just downed an AN-26 in Torez region, lying somewhere near the Progress mine. We warned – no flying in our sky. Here’s video proof of another bird down. Bird fell behind the terricon, didn’t touch the residential area. *No civillians harmed* (sic!). There’s also information about another downed jet, possibly SU"
> 
> @gau8av Good enough for you ?_



Look at this:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/483248037629018112
Russian rebels boasting on the 29th of June 2014 that they have captured BUK anti aircraft system.

The plot is thickening...


----------



## Hashshāshīn

acid rain said:


> Why the hell are they messing with the accident scene and debris?
> 
> Is this in rebel territory? is the site accessible to boeing or malaysian airline authorities?


Nope, that is rebel controlled area. They are scavenging for money and other valuable goods.


----------



## flamer84

BestUsernameEver said:


> Look at this:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/483248037629018112
> Russian rebels boasting on the 29th of June 2014 that they have captured BUK anti aircraft system.
> 
> The plot is thickening...




They're running for the hills now but deleting previous id's ,photos won't help.

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## acid rain

The black box would provide vital evidence, so would russian, US or any other radar, satellite data.


----------



## BestUsernameEver

flamer84 said:


> They're running for the hills now but deleting previous id's ,photos won't help.



Let's see if it works this time:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/483248037629018112


----------



## Beidou2020

Loki said:


> Well, nothing is being ruled out here. That being said, they have shot down aircraft before:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows that other weapons they'd acquire?
> 
> As one user wisely said, whatever leverage Putin had may go down with that plane.



Those were done by Kiev forces. No proof those videos were by rebels.


----------



## flamer84

Beidou2020 said:


> BREAKING NEWS:
> 
> Putin's plane was apparently target. Same type and colour of plane.




@Chak Bamu ...Seriously..i got a warning in this thread-probably deserved-but how is this guy not banned yet ??

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## BestUsernameEver

BestUsernameEver said:


> Let's see if it works this time:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/483248037629018112



Edit: /int/ - International

Here it is. Copy paste the google cache twitter URL. Post No.27225597


----------



## flamer84

BestUsernameEver said:


> Let's see if it works this time:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/483248037629018112




It works for me.....seriously.....

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## Star Wars

IR1907 said:


> I wonder why people are sometimes so dumb and with IQ compared to a ape.



Did you kiss your mother with that mouth ?


Right and your telling me a suitcase can conceal something from an anti aircraft missile and a drop from 33,000ft with the plane crashing into the ground...


----------



## Beidou2020

Apparently Putin's plane was the target as he was flying just 40 minutes after the plane was shot down on the same route.

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## LordTyrannus

IR1907 said:


> I wonder why people are sometimes so dumb and with IQ compared to a ape.
> 
> IS IT POSSIBLE that the passports were concealed well enough to survive a crash impact ?
> 
> ^^consider the above



Why is it important? The ones who collected the dead bodies took away their passports to make some propaganda.

Unfortunatly because of this stupidity, the flight investigators cant identify the passengers anymore.

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## Zabaniyah

Beidou2020 said:


> Those were done by Kiev forces. No proof those videos were by rebels.



Then where's your proof? 

And for the record, Kiev have very limited access to that region. 

Listen, if you love BRICS so much, I suggest that you keep quiet other than inventing conspiracy theories. Otherwise, folks will think you have something to hide. Trust me.


----------



## ozzy22

Hashshāshīn said:


> Lmao. Go comment on facebook pages to suck up to Arabs some more


if you don't mind me asking. what's your nationality?


----------



## LordTyrannus

Star Wars said:


> Do you kiss your mother with that mouth ?
> 
> 
> Right and your telling me a suitcase can conceal something from an anti aircraft missile and a drop from 33,000ft with the plane crashing into the ground...



The passport did not fall from 11.000 feet. It was in the pocket at the time of the crash of the plane.


----------



## acid rain

Hashshāshīn said:


> Nope, that is rebel controlled area. They are scavenging for money and other valuable goods.



forget about recovering the black box then.

radar and sat data may reveal what happened.


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## Water Car Engineer

WHHHHHHHHHY WOULD YOU SHOOT A PASSENGER PLANE!!?


----------



## Star Wars

LordTyrannus said:


> The passport did not fall from 11.000 feet. It was in the pocket at the time of the crash of the plane.



33,000 ft not 11,000ft ...


----------



## IR1907

LordTyrannus said:


> Why is it important? The ones who collected the dead bodies took away their passports to make some propaganda.
> 
> Unfortunatly because of this stupidity, the flight investigators cant identify the passengers anymore.



Passports were scattered then collected, put on a spot to take pictures etc. They will be most likely sold on the black market (if it fell in the hands of opportunists)


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

Water Car Engineer said:


> WHHHHHHHHHY WOULD YOU SHOOT A PASSENGER PLANE!!?


To ensure zero threat from any single spy
Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## flamer84

Apparently the separatists have the black boxes and will send them to Moscow...yeah,that seems fair

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## IR1907

Star Wars said:


> Right and your telling me a suitcase can conceal something from an anti aircraft missile and a drop from 33,000ft with the plane crashing into the ground...



Dude, i dont even know why i am arguing over the most basic things with you.

Do you think the anti air missile directly hit the baggages carrying the passports or what ? the bulk of the airplane metal protected the baggages till somewhere midair where then the baggages fell independently on the ground. Baggages/suitcases well protected the passport so it can survive a crash impact.

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## Hack-Hook

Peaceful Civilian said:


> I think Russia is involved in this incident... Years ago, they already shot down civilian plane, killing 269 people, in the name of security and they accepted the responsibility .... Same incident again..... This is deliberate attempt of Russia to keep away planes from disputed areas.
> 
> RIP to the poor souls.


I wonder why you guys remember that flight which no were looked like this incident , but don't remember this one which was far more like this incident
Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## flamer84

The UK is calling for a UN meeting.Hopefully in the next few days the separatists will be indicted for terrorism and NATO will move in to establish order,there is no other way now,US,European citizens have been murdered in cold blood.

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## senses

President Putin's plane might have been the target for Ukrainian missile - sources — RT News

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## Skull and Bones

Mr.S.Singh said:


> shot down by a missile
> 
> 295 onboard



Not possible, MANPADs cannot hit that high.


----------



## Star Wars

IR1907 said:


> Dude, i dont even know why i am arguing over the most basic things with you.
> 
> Do you think the anti air missile directly hit the baggages carrying the passports or what ? the bulk of the airplane metal protected the baggages till somewhere midair where then the baggages fell independently on the ground. Baggages/suitcases well protected the passport so it can survive a crash impact.



If something pierced the fuselage at speed and altitude there would be explosive decompression. And how do you manage to collect perfectly intact passports over a 9 mile area? I mean they aren't even dirty from being on the ground. Also I'm surprised that paper stands up that well after falling 30,000 feet at several hundred miles an hour. They are airplanes , not flying tanks .


----------



## nangyale

The latest nasty surprise, courtesy of the Kiev freaks. Thanks again uncle Sam


----------



## Kaalapani

flamer84 said:


> The UK is calling for a UN meeting.Hopefully in the next few days the separatists will be indicted for terrorism and NATO will move in to establish order,there is no other way now,US,European citizens have been murdered in cold blood.




NATO will be eliminated from the face of earth if it enters Donbass.

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## TheNoob

flamer84 said:


> The UK is calling for a UN meeting.Hopefully in the next few days the separatists will be indicted for terrorism and NATO will move in to establish order,there is no other way now,US,European citizens have been murdered in cold blood.



Take that into account of suspicion... :|


----------



## Hack-Hook

nair said:


> Ukrain says separatists shot down a fighter plane at a altitude of 22k , So the capability is there...... Ironically the previous episode of similar case had russia involved.... (here they may not be directly)


Does Ukraine have a plane capable of flying that high .

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## flamer84

Kaalapani said:


> NATO will be eliminated from the face of earth if it enters Donbass.




Game over for your terrorists,you don't kill US/EU citizens at will.Slavyans will be a joke compared to what the separatists will face in the few days and terrorist sympathisesrs like you will cry their hearts out.


----------



## JanjaWeed

Donatello said:


> Up until now, civilians planes had not crashed. Now, after the fact, the cost of making such a mistake is too damn high. Hence, inevitably they will have to re-route or passengers won't fly those airlines that take this route. I am sure if an airline were to tell passengers now that tickets will cost a bit more, passengers would be happy to pay, than be shot down. I remember I flew on Gulf Air flight from Bahrain to London back in 2008, and i went right over Iraq. Thinking about the US Navy-Iran Air incident, it did make me nervous.


It's the fuel consumption & the transit time they look for. Apparently the alternate route would have delayed the flight by only 15 mins & the fuel for that additional flying time. Only a couple of days ago an Ukrainian military transport plane was shot down at the same area & an air force jet earlier today. Obviously this airspace is pretty much vulnerable & accident prone, with both state & non-state actors having a field day.


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

JEskandari said:


> I wonder why you guys remember that flight which no were looked like this incident , but don't remember this one which was far more like this incident


Now, different situation there, Whole world knows that Russia is supporting rebels there.

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## Star Wars

Skull and Bones said:


> Not possible, MANPADs cannot hit that high.



You need a well trained SAM crew to hit something that high, which the Rebels don't posses ...

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## pakdefender

F-22Raptor said:


> The people blaming the US are morons. Plain and simple....



this event does take the focus aways from Israel committing mass murder in Gaza , No ?

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## IR1907

Star Wars said:


> If something pierced the fuselage at speed and altitude there would be explosive decompression. And how do you manage to collect perfectly intact passports over a 9 mile area? I mean they aren't even dirty from being on the ground. Also I'm surprised that paper stands up that well after falling 30,000 feet at several hundred miles an hour. They are airplanes , not flying tanks .


Are you suggesting that the passports are not from the crashed plane ?

Just a simple google will reveal the names (on the passport) that were on that flight from the family,media, booking agencies etc

RIP


----------



## Star Wars

JanjaWeed said:


> It's the fuel consumption & the transit time they look for. Apparently the alternate route would have delayed the flight by only 15 mins & the fuel for that additional flying time. Only a couple of days ago an Ukrainian military transport plane was shot down at the same area & an air force jet earlier today. Obviously this airspace is pretty much vulnerable & accident prone, with both state & non-state actors having a field day.



Also as per certain reports there were Ukrainian fighter jets escorting the Aircraft .


----------



## Hashshāshīn

Kaalapani said:


> NATO will be eliminated from the face of earth if it enters Donbass.


Who by? the rebels?


----------



## Kaalapani

flamer84 said:


> Game over for your terrorists,you don't kill US/EU citizens at will.Slavyans will be a joke compared to what the separatists will face in the few days and terrorist sympathisesrs like you will cry their hearts out.



Dont joke drakula.

IS your papa going to come to donbass and fight?

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## ozzy22

senses said:


> President Putin's plane might have been the target for Ukrainian missile - sources — RT News


I doubt this is true. I think the Ukrainian rebels mistook the airliner for a military jet


----------



## senses

At least seventy-one Dutch nationals were on board, reported RTL. It has also been reported by the media that 23 US nationals could have been on board, as well as four French nationals and "between five and 10 Britons" according to a Whitehall source who spoke to Mail Online.


----------



## Kaalapani

Hashshāshīn said:


> Who by? the rebels?




You didn’t get the joke didn’t you?


----------



## gau8av

CNN expert "..conspiracy theories we shouldn't even entertain.." followed by "here's what I think.."

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## Star Wars

IR1907 said:


> Are you suggesting that the passports are not from the crashed plane ?
> 
> Just a simple google will reveal the names (on the passport) that were on that flight from the family,media, booking agencies etc
> 
> RIP




Am not suggesting anything , i find it totally bizarre anything can survive that in one piece, unless information being provided is wrong

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## Strigon

Hashshāshīn said:


> Who would be insecure over a Pakistani? Lmao



Pretty evident you are since one without even saying anything can get on your nerves

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## Hashshāshīn

Kaalapani said:


> You didn’t get the joke didn’t you?


Kind of hard to detect sarcasm over text, isn't it boss?

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## Hack-Hook

nair said:


> Previous day they shot an ukrainian fighter at 20k ft..... they might have thought of a possibility of an aircraft took off from far away base and flying in this area... May be?


10km is 33000 feet not 20000 feet


----------



## Donatello

JanjaWeed said:


> It's the fuel consumption & the transit time they look for. Apparently the alternate route would have delayed the flight by only 15 mins & the fuel for that additional flying time. Only a couple of days ago an Ukrainian military transport plane was shot down at the same area & an air force jet earlier today. Obviously this airspace is pretty much vulnerable & accident prone, with both state & non-state actors having a field day.



During active air hostilities, air-space is a no fly zone anyway. In this case not so much because you have rebels and separatists fighting against each other in muddy territories. Air space is not marked by boundaries and as such. If this was a case of shoot down, the operators probably didn't know how to use the system. They probably saw a blip on the radar and shot at it. The blip could be anything from a Russian su-25 to a civilian airliner. That's why there are checks in place and the last call for missile launch comes from a senior officer. But when you put this in the hands of amateurs at best, shyt like this can happen. No body could see this coming. Yes there was a possibility, but not certainty. Now there is.

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## acid rain

Star Wars said:


> You need a well trained SAM crew to hit something that high, which the Rebels don't posses ...



How do you know that? they just took down a su25 and a military jet which are much more difficult targets with counter measures. This could have been a rebel mistaking it for something else.


----------



## Zabaniyah

Skull and Bones said:


> Not possible, MANPADs cannot hit that high.



At that kind of altitude, it must have been a radar-guided missile.


----------



## Jlaw

Lux de Veritas said:


> It is a sad event.
> 
> I really suspect the Nazi Ukraine government more than Putin in case of any foul play. Putin despite of all his weaknesses, is a man who play by the rules and someone people can do business with.
> 
> Unlike others, Putin defended his countries against traitors who sold themselves to USA.



Or maybe it's like the sinking of the RMS Lusutania. The pro-Western forcesy are hoping to draw NATO into this conflict.


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

nangyale said:


> The latest nasty surprise, courtesy of the Kiev freaks. Thanks again uncle Sam


23 U.S.A citizens also died in this incident. What thanks to uncle SAM? I don't understand logic in your post

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## Strigon

Star Wars said:


> Am not suggesting anything , i find it totally bizarre anything can survive that in one piece, unless information being provided is wrong



I kinda agree with you. Barely anything survived in the pictures. Almost everything is charred, from engines to frames. Exception being somewhat still intact but dead victims....But passports in perfect condition...


----------



## pakdefender

Peaceful Civilian said:


> *23 U.S.A citizens also died* in this incident. What thanks to uncle SAM? I don't understand logic in your post



Sacrificial lambs for the Temple of Solomon

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## acid rain

Star Wars said:


> Am not suggesting anything , i find it totally bizarre anything can survive that in one piece, unless information being provided is wrong



Throw a bunch of paper from a high rise, it will land in one piece, its not made of metal to disintegrate.


----------



## Donatello

Star Wars said:


> Am not suggesting anything , i find it totally bizarre anything can survive that in one piece, unless information being provided is wrong



Nothing bizzare. You can have look at the pictures again, with dead passengers. some have their clothes on (indicating they were shielded from the air outside when the plane came down in one big piece) while others have their shirts off, indicating their clothes were blown off by the rushing air and thus were seated in areas that broke off. From the looks of the crash, the plane fell in one big piece with engines lying close to the rest of the main body and wings/ailerons etc. So yes something like a passport can easily survive in a hand carry bag, etc.

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## JanjaWeed

Star Wars said:


> Also as per certain reports there were Ukrainian fighter jets escorting the Aircraft .



Why would they do that? Most of the media in the west seems to be pointing fingers at Russia. Then again.. it would be naive to come to that sort of conclusion this early.


----------



## Zabaniyah

Strigon said:


> 4 types of people on this thread so far :
> 
> 
> Russia is FINISHED!
> US/NATO is FINISHED!
> That's a horrible news, why a passenger aircraft!
> I just hate Pakistanis because of my Insecurities! @Hashshāshīn



LOL!


----------



## Star Wars

acid rain said:


> How do you know that? they just took down a su25 and a military jet which are much more difficult targets with counter measures. This could have been a rebel mistaking it for something else.



they don't fly at 33,000 ft , they fly much lower than that ...

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## nangyale

Peaceful Civilian said:


> 23 U.S.A citizens also died in this incident. What thanks to uncle SAM? I don't understand logic in your post


The Kiev Junta thanks to uncle Sam. What is so difficult for you to comprehend.

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## DV RULES

Murder of 295 passengers was attempt to bring situation in eastern Ukraine in broader sense, to get legitimacy for EU/NATO/Ukraine joint operation against people of eastern Ukraine. 

We should remember that "a wounded dog ever bits in short" *because some one couldn't digest loss of Crimea. *

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## Peaceful Civilian

pakdefender said:


> Sacrificial lambs for the Temple of Solomon


Sorry to say, U.S.A is not Pakistan . They take care life of their citizens unlike our police shoots 100+ people in Lahore and even not allows to register FIR from effected families.

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## Star Wars

JanjaWeed said:


> Why would they do that? Most of the media in the west seems to be pointing fingers at Russia. Then again.. it would be naive to come to that sort of conclusion this early.



First they divert the aircraft into a conflict zone and then you get reports of two fighter jets escorting the aircraft.
I don't know of the second report is true but if both are factually correct statements . then this looks very bad

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## Hashshāshīn

@Strigon This is what I mean by delusional (read previous few posts). Why does every single thing that happens got to be "Amerika did it"?


----------



## waz

Hashshāshīn said:


> @Strigon This is what I mean by delusional (read previous few posts). Why does every single thing that happens got to be "Amerika did it"?



There is plenty of Pakistanis saying otherwise. 

Let's stick to the topic.


----------



## Rahul9090

French says there were at least 4 French citizens

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## acid rain

Star Wars said:


> they don't fly at 33,000 ft , they fly much lower than that ...



If someone can take out a su25 which has auto countermeasures and which is much more agile and faster than one can take out a lumbering passanger plane. Height is your only issue here it seems. Buk has an effective range of 62000 ft.

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## DV RULES

Skull and Bones said:


> Not possible, MANPADs cannot hit that high.


at the hight of 10000 meters, only S-300 or BUK can hit the target so in general Donetsk self defense force hasn't such equipment but only Ukrainian BUK air defense system which was moved on July 16, 2014.

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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489841409223327744


----------



## The SC

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said the jet may have been downed near the city of Shaktarsk in the volatile Donetsk region.

“We do not exclude that the plane was shot down and confirm that the Ukraine Armed Forces did not fire at any targets in the sky,” Poroshenko said in a statement.

Pro-Russian activists fighting the Ukrainian government said the jetliner had been shot down by a Ukrainian jet.

“Witnesses watching the flight of the Boeing 777 passenger plane saw it being attacked by a battle plane of the Ukrainian forces,” the self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic (LPR) said in a statement.

“After that the passenger plane split in two in the air and fell on the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic,” it said.

PressTV - Malaysia passenger plane ‘shot down’ over Ukraine, 295 dead

Some people say:



> This is clearly a message to the Kuala Lumpur War tribunal which is going to impeach Israel for their war crimes! You remember the KLWT found Bush and Blair guilty for war crimes and crimes against humanity. This is the second malaysian Civil aircraft shot down by the NATO forces. In may they did military exercices in Thailand and this time in Ukraine! These criminal bunch should be impeached too.



.


> .....It is heart breaking!!....... Is it COINCIDENT that plane is a Malaysian Plane??........Or is this SPECIFICALLY AIMED toward Malaysia???.........The ONLY country who had a INTERNATIONAL war crime TRIBUNAL COURT about WAR CRIMES committed by BUSH, CHENEY, RUMSFIELD .........And found them GUILTY of committing war crimes??........... Just some thing to thing about??........ Two Malaysian plane in such a short time??......... In such a questionable circonstences!!!.........Our deep condolences to the family for this HEART BREAKING NEWS..........May they rest in PEACE!





> Facts: Months ago a court in Malasia declared Israel guilty for crimes against humanity. There's the second plain of Malasia airlines lost in a short time. Coincidence?

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## Star Wars

acid rain said:


> If someone can take out a su25 which has auto countermeasures and which is much more agile and faster than one can take out a lumbering passanger plane. Height is your only issue here it seems. Buk has an effective range of 62000 ft.



Ukrainian Military are in possession of Buk missiles not the separatists .

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## JanjaWeed

Star Wars said:


> First they divert the aircraft into a conflict zone and then you get reports of two fighter jets escorting the aircraft.
> I don't know of the second report is true but if both are factually correct statements . then this looks very bad


Many conspiracy theories are already floating around. & the West can easily manipulate any incident to it's advantage. I wouldn't be surprised if this is all a part of the larger game plan. Then again.. feel bad for the family of those departed souls... & Malaysian Airline too. They seems be the guinea pig in this geopolitical & geo-strategic experiment!

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## Hashshāshīn

TheNoob said:


> I did not mean you....
> 
> Butthurt, in the Ukraine crisis.
> See two sides.
> And figure it out.


Yeah, people tend to be butthurt when 300 people including 70 children are murdered.


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## nangyale

The Ukies are losing the battle on the ground. So want to gain international sympathy by blowing an airliner and trying to blame it on the Novorussian defense forces.


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## Hack-Hook

Hashshāshīn said:


> Because passports are usually inside suitcases, surrounded by clothes


well , to be honest on international flight you want to keep your passport somewhere easier to reach


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## Mercenary

Looks like those pro-Russian rebels mistook this plane for a Ukraine Transport Plane and fired a missile and shot it down.


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## ExtraOdinary




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## Peaceful Civilian

*UKRAINIAN OFFICIAL:*
We have recording of Phone calls between terrorists Discussing "Shoot down"


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## Star Wars

JanjaWeed said:


> Many conspiracy theories are already floating around. & the West can easily manipulate any incident to it's advantage. I wouldn't be surprised if this is all a part of the larger game plan. Then again.. feel bad for the family of those departed souls... & Malaysian Airline too. They seems be the guinea pig in this geopolitical & geo-strategic experiment!



AM only hoping this is not used as an excuse for NATO intervention .

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## acid rain

Star Wars said:


> Ukrainian Military are in possession of Buk missiles not the separatists .



Again, how do you know that? AFP correspondents reported seeing BUk missiles in rebel territory 48 hours prior to this incident.


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## Strigon

@Hashshāshīn


> StrigonThis is what I mean by delusional (read previous few posts). Why does every single thing that happens got to be "Amerika did it"?



There are plenty non-Pakistanis also saying Russia did it. Where are your hateful screams in that case? Or even better why you care so much? To us, you seem like a citizen of no where and/ or too ashamed to reveal your country.

If you are so immature to even pay a mind to people talking without any source/ evidence then you should just stay at a day care center. Maybe start over.

Since I and many other Pakistanis joined the thread we have been talking about how sad the event is and not blaming anyone without evidence but obviously you dont see those posts. Seems like you have an agenda here.

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## Bratva

*20.16 *The Ukrainian security services have released what they say are recordings proving that Russian military intelligence ordered MH17 to be shot down.

*0.15 *The *International Air Transport Association*, the global airline body based in Geneva, is denying reports that the Malaysia Airlines flight was in restricted airspace at the time it went down.



_Based on the information currently available, it is believed that the airspace that the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions._


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## Serpentine

Let's not jump in to conclusions, all these 3 countries, Russia (Soviets), U.S and Ukraine have a history of this barbaric act, shooting down civilian airliners and I wouldn't be surprised if any of them have done this or secretly supported it.

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## Leader

*Putin's plane overlapped MH17 flight route less than hour before - report*


Putin's plane overlapped MH17 flight route less than hour before - report — RT News

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## Hack-Hook

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Now, different situation there, Whole world knows that Russia is supporting rebels there.


and whole world knew Kiev just dies for blaming something quiet nasty to separatist to get help from NATO after loosing its air-force at a dangerous rate.


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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489852832921559040


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## JanjaWeed

Star Wars said:


> AM only hoping this is not used as an excuse for NATO intervention .


Would be a foolish thing to do. If there's going to be a head on collision between NATO & Russia... it won't be just confined to them alone. Lot many countries will get sucked into this or will be forced to take sides!

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## Star Wars

acid rain said:


> Again, how do you know that? AFP correspondents reported seeing BUk missiles in rebel territory 48 hours prior to this incident.



How do i know that ? thats like asking why India does not fly F-16s.. Its well know Ukrainians have Buk missile systems and there are reports separatists had Captured one 48 hours ago . You don't expect a mob of separatists to actually know how to operate these systems, do you ? Besides according to twitter reports these system were not in working condition when they captured it ...

Its one thing to operate a MANPAD and bring down helicopters and military aircrafts and its something else entirely to operate SAM systems

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## joekrish

RIP.

It will be quite intresting to know who is going to head the investigation (which country).


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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489853349119139841


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## JanjaWeed

joekrish said:


> RIP.
> 
> It will be quite intresting to know who is going to head the investigation (which country).


I think Malaysia will have a major say in deciding that!

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## F-22Raptor

Star Wars said:


> AM only hoping this is not used as an excuse for NATO intervention .


 All evidence points to the separatists shooting down this plane. They are the only ones that have been shooting down aircraft. They have received high end weapons systems and training covertly from Russia for weeks now. The Buk anti air system has been confirmed to be in the possession of the separatists within the last week. The separatists leader was boasting just an hour before this went public about shooting down a plane, and how they should stay out of their territory. The tweet has since been deleted. Some of you are just in denial.

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## Tunisian Marine Corps

Russia terrorists they shot it down ..... why because they think it is cargo plane .... but don't mean they don't get punished for it .... i hope that Ukrainian army kill them all .. then kick Russians out

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## Serpentine

Rahul9090 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489853349119139841



These cheap Ukrainian government propaganda will get nowhere and has no value until a thorough investigation reveals the perpetrator.

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## Hack-Hook

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Sorry to say, U.S.A is not Pakistan . They take care life of their citizens unlike our police shoots 100+ people in Lahore and even not allows to register FIR from effected families.


we saw the help USA gave its soldier at the USS Liberty incident while they desperately asked for help for several time. let just remember , yes a US vice president at the time said no one interfere so a dear ally won't get embarrassed.

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## Hashshāshīn

Strigon said:


> @Hashshāshīn
> 
> There are plenty non-Pakistanis also saying Russia did it. Where are your hateful screams in that case? Or even better why you care so much? To us, you seem like a citizen of no where and/ or too ashamed to reveal your country.
> 
> If you are so immature to even pay a mind to people talking without any source/ evidence then you should just stay at a day care center. Maybe start over.
> 
> Since I and many other Pakistanis joined the thread we have been talking about how sad the event is and not blaming anyone without evidence but obviously you dont see those posts. Seems like you have an agenda here.


Because Russia is a legitimate suspect, and US is not.
And maybe you should tell those people blaming US for everything to provide sources/evidence or stay at daycare centres.
Which other 3rd party members are saying false flag and US did it? Blaming US is a past time for these people


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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489853349119139841


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489853813772537856


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## acid rain

RT and Press TV FTW!!!! they have come up with at least 20 conspiracy theories between them.

@starwars, Ukr officials claim Russian supplied equipment 48 hours back.

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## Declein

pakdefender said:


> Sacrificial lambs for the Temple of Solomon



You're a moron, I hope you don't breed.

Things are pretty clear by now, what remains to be seen is:

- if the missile was fired directly from Russia (my guess)
- or if the rebels used some toys they really shouldn't have used.

Regardless, the outcome should be similar.


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## Star Wars

F-22Raptor said:


> All evidence points to the separatists shooting down this plane. They are the only ones that have been shooting down aircraft. They have received high end weapons systems and training covertly from Russia for weeks now. The Buk anti air system has been confirmed to be in the possession of the separatists within the last week. The separatists leader was boasting just an hour before this went public about shooting down a plane, and how they should stay out of their territory. The tweet has since been deleted. Some of you are just in denial.



Stop being so desperate and start thinking , these mobs you call separatists are incapable of arming and using complex SAM systems . Most of what they use is Manpads . And any plane going down in a war zone can be easily assumed as a Ukrainian military Aircraft considering the history of that place , so its no surprise he was celebrating .

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## Hack-Hook

Peaceful Civilian said:


> *UKRAINIAN OFFICIAL:*
> We have recording of Phone calls between terrorists Discussing "Shoot down"
> 
> Source: CW live news


If you want I'll provide recording of two Aum Shinrikyo. member who discus how they shut down the plane .


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## Beidou2020

acid rain said:


> RT and Press TV FTW!!!! they have come up with at least 20 conspiracy theories between them.
> 
> @starwars, Ukr officials claim Russian supplied equipment 48 hours back.



And you believe every western propaganda


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## joekrish

JanjaWeed said:


> I think Malaysia will have a major say in deciding that!


But...would the Russians give in to that, without their help the investigation agency would not be able to get in.

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## Star Wars

acid rain said:


> RT and Press TV FTW!!!! they have come up with at least 20 conspiracy theories between them.
> 
> @starwars, Ukr officials claim Russian supplied equipment 48 hours back.



And Separatists Claim Ukraine shot down the aircraft . everyone has been claiming everything since this incident.
Anything which does not conform to your views does not automatically become a conspiracy theory .


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## A.P. Richelieu

Beidou2020 said:


> US smuggled its missiles into Ukraine to shoot down airliner to blame Russia. US thought it would fool everyone but the world sees right through US terrorist activities.
> 
> Russian separatists have no US missiles. This confirms this is 100% US military operation.



@Chak Bamu can we get rid of the Troll, and all his postings pls?

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## Pakistani E

Star Wars said:


> You need a well trained SAM crew to hit something that high, which the Rebels don't posses ...



You are just defending Russia because it is an ally of India.


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## al-Hasani

Rahul9090 said:


> French says there were at least 4 French citizens



Un avion de ligne malaisien s'écrase en Ukraine - BFMTV.com

EUROPE - En direct : des dizaines de morts dont au moins quatre Français - France 24

Horrible "accident". This will have serious consequences for Russia and their terrorists in Eastern Ukraine. Hopefully they will be taught a lesson as many of the causalities were Dutch and American aside from the 4 Frenchmen until now.

Aside from all the Malaysian casualties.

Ukraine and its allies should remove those terrorists once and for all.

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## Pakistani E

Chak Bamu said:


> Unfortunately, I can not warn him for saying his mind unless he uses foul language, abuses someone, insults a nationality, etc...
> Like they say, every village has an idiot. People are known by the quality of their posts.
> 
> If I come across something from him that crosses the line, I will take action. This is a fast moving thread and I am a few pages behind.



I have been banned from numerous threads for supposedly posting 'un related' stuff. Maybe you should ban all people who are defending the actions of Russian terrorists by coming up with outrageous conspiracy theories that even make the Jamat e Islami nutjobs look sane. Conspiracy theories should be off topic too, right?

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## Star Wars

Today we have a plane crash in Ukraine in which there are no eyewitnesses to a missile, but we know that it was a missile, we know which kind of missile it is, and we know who fired it, except for the fact that there is no evidence


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## Strigon

Hashshāshīn said:


> Because Russia is a legitimate suspect, and US is not.
> And maybe you should tell those people blaming US for everything to provide sources/evidence or stay at daycare centres.
> Which other 3rd party members are saying false flag and US did it? Blaming US is a past time for these people




I repeat this for *emphasis *because one you obviously wont simply understand a simple line, two since I practice the following quite often and not seem stupid like you.

<< *Why do you care what some person without any evidence has to say?* >>

why do I need to tell anyone why they are wrong? Do I have any authority to decide on the limited information avalible? Do they? Do you? Answer : NO

Its about time you stop feeding that hateful mentality against Pakistanis you have grown like a well groomed garden in your brain, its effecting your way of thinking and leaking the stench of arrogance.


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## IR1907

al-Hasani said:


> Un avion de ligne malaisien s'écrase en Ukraine - BFMTV.com
> 
> EUROPE - En direct : des dizaines de morts dont au moins quatre Français - France 24
> 
> Horrible "accident". This will have serious consequences for Russia and their terrorists in Eastern Ukraine. Hopefully they will be taught a lesson as many of the causalities were Dutch and American aside from the 4 Frenchmen until now.
> 
> Aside from all the Malaysian casualties.
> 
> Ukraine and its allies should remove those terrorists once and for all.



They wont use force against Russia itself. Most likely extra sanctions


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## acid rain

Star Wars said:


> And Separatists Claim Ukraine shot down the aircraft . everyone has been claiming everything since this incident.
> Anything which does not conform to your views does not automatically become a conspiracy theory .



Russia is a dear friend, but what I feel is this was a horrible mistake on the rebels part, they mistook it for another of UKR military craft. Most rebels are bozos with guns - plenty of examples of that in Syria.


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## boomslang

You ( Vladi ) gives a monkey (Russian terrorists) a gun and the monkey shoots someone, do you blame the monk


MarkusS said:


> easy answer. russia supplier terrorists with technology to shot down airplanes. Those are stupid morons like the self proclaimed mayor of slawansk. My guess is that ome of those morons simply made a mistake. That happens when you give technology to those morons. Now it will get interesting. I feel sorry for the victims. The brak up happemed at cruisimg altitude. I hope the hull did crack early so people got unconcious and did not suffer all the way down.




When an idiot gives a monkey a gun, and the monkey shoots someone, who do you blame, the monkey ? The little dictator Vladi is in DEEP BORSCHT !! He's going to have sanctions coming out his stupid, little @ss !!


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## Star Wars

AM hearing Israel is launching ground invasion of Gaza right now


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## DV RULES

*Kiev deployed powerful surface-to-air missile systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash*


*The Ukrainian military reportedly deployed a battery of Buk surface-to-air missile systems, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, to the Donetsk region the day before the Malaysian passenger plane crashed in the area.

Itar-Tass and Interfax news agencies are citing a source familiar with the issue, who said that another battery of Buk systems is currently being prepared for shipment to Donetsk region from the Ukrainian city of Kharkov. The Donetsk region remains the scene of heavy fighting between government troops and the forces of the opposition, which refused to recognize the regime change in Kiev and demand federalization. 

A Malaysian Airlines aircraft en route from Amsterdam to Malaysia crashed in Eastern Ukraine – not far from the Russian border – on Thursday. *
*There were reportedly 280 people and 15 crew members on board the Boeing-777 plane, who reportedly all died in the crash. 

There were unconfirmed reports the Malaysian plane was travelling at an altitude of over 10,000 meters when it was allegedly hit by a missile. 

There’s no way that the self-defense forces in Donetsk Region are in possession of such complex weaponry, he stressed. 

Only S-300 and Buk surface-to-air missile systems are capable of hitting targets at such altitude, the source said. 

Buk (Blume) is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an altitude of up to 30 kilometers.

Chances are high that the Malaysian plane was really downed by the Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense, Yury Karash, pilot and aviation expert, told RT. 

“A Boeing-777 is an extremely reliable piece of machinery. Modern planes don’t just crash with no reason,” he said. “Let us recall how a Ukrainian missile downed Russian TU-154 aircraft ten years ago. I can’t completely exclude the possibility the Boeing-777 was also hit by a missile.”

“I don’t know who could’ve shot it down. But I can allege that it was most likely the Ukrainian armed forces: simply because its military – anti-aircraft defense, in particular – are, unfortunately, unqualified. As judging by the overall state of the Ukrainian armed forces, insufficient attention has been paid to their training,” Karash added. 

Reports in the Western media hurried to blame the self-defense forces of the People’s Republic of Donetsk for bringing the plane down. 

The claims were denied by the representatives of the Donetsk People’s Republic, saying that it’s the Ukrainian military, which destroyed the aircraft. 

“We simply don’t have such air defense systems. Our man-portable air defense systems have a firing range 3,000 - 4,000 meters. The Boeing was flying at a much higher altitude,” Sergey Kavtaradze, special representative for the prime minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, explained. 

Kavtaradze also expressed condolences to the relatives of all of those who lost their lives in the tragedy.
Kiev deployed powerful surface-to-air missile systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash – reports — RT News*


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## Declein

IR1907 said:


> They wont use force against Russia itself. Most likely extra sanctions



They don;t want to use force against Russia. They also don;t need to use force against Russia. 

The issue was always the EU: as long as the EU would be hurt by sanctions and didn't completely agree to them, the USA couldn't act. Now this will most likely change: EU will swallow the losses and go forward with the sanctions


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## al-Hasani

IR1907 said:


> They wont use force against Russia itself. Most likely extra sanctions



Russia is creating problems everywhere. Threatening peaceful Eastern European states, causing great trouble in Ukraine, invading Georgia, oppressing the native Caucasians and other minorities, ruling Central Asia directly etc.

I hope that France, Netherlands and the US will be very vocal. We all know who is behind this. Mistake or not.

It's not the first time that those so-called "separatists" have been shooting planes down be it war planes or civilian planes.

When Russia is not sponsoring mass-murder in Syria they are doing things like those.

Thankfully Europeans will never trust any Russian regime.

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## Rahul9090

Russian authorities blames Ukraine for not ensuring flight safety in Ukraine's airspace


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## Star Wars

acid rain said:


> Russia is a dear friend, but what I feel is this was a horrible mistake on the rebels part, they mistook it for another of UKR military craft. Most rebels are bozos with guns - plenty of examples of that in Syria.



Bozos with guns can't operate SAM systems and destroy something at 33,000 ft . Something is really very wrong . The timing of this is also very wrong . Till now there is absolutely no evidence to point out who did it. all we know for certain is Kiev flight controller diverted this flight directly into a conflict zone .


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## al-Hasani

boomslang said:


> You ( Vladi ) gives a monkey (Russian terrorists) a gun and the monkey shoots someone, do you blame the monk
> 
> 
> 
> When an idiot gives a monkey a gun, and the monkey shoots someone, who do you blame, the monkey ? The little dictator Vladi is in DEEP BORSCHT !! He's going to have sanctions coming out his stupid, little @ss !!



"Deep borscht"

Good one!

Vladi should return to Siberia. He is a hidden Mongol.

Europe and in particular France should never bow down to Russian savagery. Let them stick to Central Asia.

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## LordTyrannus

Star Wars said:


> Bozos with guns can't operate SAM systems and destroy something at 33,000 ft . Something is really very wrong . The timing of this is also very wrong . Till now there is absolutely no evidence to point out who did it. all we know for certain is Kiev flight controller diverted this flight directly into a conflict zone .



Yes your comment is very wrong. Rebels are military hardened legioneirs payed from moscow.


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## Declein

Star Wars said:


> Bozos with guns can't operate SAM systems and destroy something at 33,000 ft . Something is really very wrong . The timing of this is also very wrong . Till now there is absolutely no evidence to point out who did it. all we know for certain is Kiev flight controller diverted this flight directly into a conflict zone .



It seems all the trolls came out tonight...OFCOURSE THEY CAN'T, that's why they have Russian "volunteer" crews to operate their shit for them.
Or do you think that all the those Ukrainian plane looses were caused by the rebels acting alone?

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## Tunisian Marine Corps

people it is clear Russian terrorists shot it down because they the only ones that shot down planes so they have active anti air system 
and to any idiot that say Ukrainian army shot it down you are the most stupid and idiot person in the world ... the Ukrainian army is in war vs terrorists so when became the usage of anti air system part of counter terrorism

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## boomslang

Rahul9090 said:


> Russian authorities blames Ukraine for not ensuring flight safety in Ukraine's airspace




HAHAHAHAHAHA !!! That's a GOOD ONE !! That little weasel Vladi is an idiot. ( No offense meant towards weasels)

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## Pakistani E

Star Wars said:


> Today we have a plane crash in Ukraine in which there are no eyewitnesses to a missile, but we know that it was a missile, we know which kind of missile it is, and we know who fired it, except for the fact that there is no evidence



*Through his VK.com account, Russia’s version of Facebook, the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Girkin — who goes by the nom de guerre Igor Strelkov — boasted about shooting down a plane.

"We did warn you — do not fly in our sky," he wrote.

Thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane, Strelkov added that “a plane has just been downed somewhere around Torez, it lays there behind the 'Progress' mine,” referring to the mining town of some 80,000 people.

“And here is the video proving another 'bird' falling down,” he continued. “The bird went down behind a slagheap, not in a residential district. So no peaceful people were injured,” Strelkov wrote, adding that there is also information about a Ukrainian military plane shot down.

However, Strelkov deleted the post when he found out it was actually a commercial jetliner carrying 295 innocent people — not a military aircraft.*


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## Strigon

Star Wars said:


> AM hearing Israel is launching ground invasion of Gaza right now




You are right.

BBC News - Israel starts ground offensive in Gaza

Clever move, i'd say. Since all attention is diverted to this incident, prime time to roll tanks over teddy bears and not hear too much of world complaining. What a bloody day.

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## al-Hasani

boomslang said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHA !!! That's a GOOD ONE !! That little weasel Vladi is an idiot. ( No offense meant towards weasels)



How about NATO string some trouble up in Russia? I mean Russian's are living on stolen land in most of their current territories. I think that Russia could be further divided like the failed USSR was.

In the meantime I suggest that Vladi returns to Siberia.

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## xenon54 out

Ukraine army must clear his homeland from terrorists backed by JEW Russia.

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## acid rain

Star Wars said:


> Bozos with guns can't operate SAM systems and destroy something at 33,000 ft . Something is really very wrong . The timing of this is also very wrong . Till now there is absolutely no evidence to point out who did it. all we know for certain is Kiev flight controller diverted this flight directly into a conflict zone .



I meant bozos with big guns, yeah, I guess we should wait for the dust to settle, but I have a bad feeling about this being a horrible mistake.


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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489860446388645888


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## boomslang

*Ukraine Air Force jet shot down by Russian plane*
Published July 17, 2014
Associated Press

KIEV, Ukraine – An Air Force fighter jet has been shot down by an air-to-air missile fired from a Russian plane, a spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council said Thursday.

Andrei Lysenko also said Ukrainian troops had been fired upon by missiles from a village just inside Russia.

Officials in Kiev have recently accused Russia's armed forces of being directly implicated in attacks on Ukrainian troops battling an insurgency near the border.

Lysenko said in a televised briefing that the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet that was hit on Wednesday evening was forced to bail out after his jet was shot down. He provided no further details.

Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets (and a Boeing on Thursday.)

The Defense Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely.

Moscow denies Western charges that is supporting the separatists in Ukraine or sowing unrest in its neighbor.

On Monday, Ukraine said one of its military transport planes carrying eight people was shot down by a missile fired from Russian territory. Security Service chief Valentyn Nalyvaichenko said he had "unconditional evidence" that Russia was involved in downing the craft.

Rebels claimed to have shot that plane down.

The U.S. slapped tougher sanctions against Russia on Wednesday for its actions in Ukraine, prompting a strong reaction Thursday from Russian President Vladimir Putin, who said they will stalemate bilateral relations and hurt not only Russian but also American businesses.

Russia's benchmark MICEX was down 2.6 percent in early afternoon trading Thursday upon news of the sanctions while Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was nearly 5 percent down.

The U.S. sanctions target two major Russian energy firms including Rosneft, a pair of powerful financial institutions, eight weapons firms and four individuals.

The U.S. penalties, however, stopped short of the most stringent actions the West has threatened, which would fully cut off key sectors of Russia's oil-dependent economy. But officials said those steps were still on the table if Russia fails to abide by the West's demands to stop its support for the pro-Russia insurgents.


Interesting.


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## Marshmallow

RIP ...so many ppl died!


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## al-Hasani

France should make it very clear to Vladi that such behavior is unacceptable and that it will not be tolerated again alongside NATO. 4 French citizens died. This is unacceptable. I suggest Vladi should worry about Belarus instead of trying to annex Ukraine. Ukrainians do not want to be part of a failed system anymore or under failed Russian rule. They want to become a part of the West and they should be helped to achieve just that.

I expect NATO to make a clear statement and engage in further sanctions.

As partially French and a long-time resident in France I condemn this act sharply.


----------



## Schutz

Beidou2020 said:


> And you believe every western propaganda



Theres a difference between believing "propaganda" which has fair and balanced viewpoints and then the likes of RT which only produces articles against the west, even when they almost definitely have no doing in the affair. Even on sky news/bbc this week there has been alot of anti Israeli stuff and they show alot of both sides of the Ukrainian conflict, whereas all RT shows is "NATO MERCENARIES RAPING MILLIONS OF RUSSIANS..IN UKRAINE..." etc etc

Always the same with these stories, even when the verdict is fairly certain people will just say oh it was the west they did it to make it seem like it was the Russians, the Russians are always infallible on this forum as no matter what happens people just blame others. The Ukrainians would not do this, they are likely to be the only ones with planes in the area anyway and they have lost plenty themselves, I doubt they even have much in the way of this technology, the Russians on the other hand and their "puppets" I imagine can be fairly well equipped if needs be. Terrible thing to happen, my condolences to the victims and I cant imagine the shear terror of being in an airliner at a high altitude being struck by a fucking missile, **** this world.


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## sincity

This tragic accident won't cause a major war between the west and Russia.


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## boomslang

Declein said:


> It seems all the trolls came out tonight...



I'm out almost every night.

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## Gandhi G in da house

These white people are by far the most violent people on Earth. They always do some shit like this that can devolve the world into a world war or world war like situation. A few decades of peace that's all , despite all the prosperity.


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## sincity

You don't fly civilian airplane into a war zone, any plane fly over a conflict zone bound to be shot down.

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## al-Hasani

nick_indian said:


> These white people are by far the most violent people on Earth. They always do some shit like this that can devolve the world into a world war or world war like situation. A few decades of peace that's all , despite all the prosperity.



What is this kind of nonsense? Russians are the number 1 when it comes to murdering others and their own together with the Chinese.

Last time I checked Russian's are white too despite having Mongol/Uralic (non-Caucasian) admixture to various degrees.

Russia should be further sanctioned and Europe should find alternative energy suppliers. The sooner the better.

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## xenon54 out

nick_indian said:


> These white people are by far the most violent people on Earth. They always do some shit like this that can devolve the world into a world war or world war like situation. A few decades of peace that's all , despite all the prosperity.


You would scream racism if a white person would say the same about indians.

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## Gandhi G in da house

al-Hasani said:


> What is this kind of nonsense? Russians are the number 1 when it comes to murdering others and their own together with the Chinese.
> 
> Last time I checked Russian's are white too despite having Mongol/Uralic (non-Caucasian) admixture to various degrees.



Yeah yeah I am including Russians in whites. Come on man. Just look at these white dudes history. No need to be politically correct.



xenon54 said:


> You would scream racism if a white person would say the same about indians.



Racist but true.


----------



## Mercenary

In any case....this should be very interesting how this plays out.

I hope this doesnt become like the Archduke Ferdinand's assassinaion 100 years ago which sparked world war I

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## boomslang

sincity said:


> You don't fly civilian airplane into a war zone, any plane fly over a conflict zone bound to be shot down.




Sort of like IranAir ?


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## BestUsernameEver

xenon54 said:


> Ukraine army must clear his homeland from terrorists backed by JEW Russia.



hahahah well played.

You know what's funny?

In Russia there are just as many Jews in positions of power as in the USA. Just as many... 

Yet this doesn't seem to bother the usual suspects à la Fukuoka nor the far right idiots who support Putin because they think that supporting Putin = combating "international jewry" 

Hence why you have people like the Hungarian Jobbik (Hungarians traditionally aren't exactly fond of Russians) so strongly supporting Putin and his ideologues such as Dugin.

Some people are truly to stupid for their own good...

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## Kaalapani

boomslang said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHA !!! That's a GOOD ONE !! That little weasel Vladi is an idiot. ( No offense meant towards weasels)



First take care of your Mulla obama.


----------



## al-Hasani

sincity said:


> Arab never murder your own kind or any other kind for that matter?



What have Arabs to do with the well-known Russian mass genocides etc.? Yes, they do. Just like thousands of Americans murder each other due to crime each year. I already wrote that people are all the same everywhere. The only difference is their actual track record and the Russian track-record is well-known for everybody.

Anyway this is history, I just hope that Russia will be further sanctioned. It's a pariah state. It's just a shame that Russian's don't know any better due to centuries of brainwashing. Ordinary Russians tend to be good people although their tourists are horrible at least in France.

Vladi is a scumbag though. Don't like the man a bit.


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## boomslang

Kaalapani said:


> First take care of your Mulla obama.




We're going to shoot him at a Russian plane.

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## dexter



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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489864945366876160


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## 500

Place where the airliner was shot down:






Red - rebel controlled area. Green - the airliner route.

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## al-Hasani

Rahul9090 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489864945366876160



RT are the exact same as their PISSTV cousins. Both should be banned. Horrible "news" outlets. No wonder that Russia and mullahistan are allies.

Only RT clowns can make such pathetic theories that would envy an alcoholic in a Danish bodega early Saturday morning.

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## DV RULES

boomslang said:


> You ( Vladi ) gives a monkey (Russian terrorists) a gun and the monkey shoots someone, do you blame the monk
> 
> 
> 
> When an idiot gives a monkey a gun, and the monkey shoots someone, who do you blame, the monkey ? The little dictator Vladi is in DEEP BORSCHT !! He's going to have sanctions coming out his stupid, little @ss !!



Well, than who gave gun to monkeys in Libya, Syria .......... and whom to blame? And who gave weapons to Israel to genocide Palestinians?


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## UnChosen

Wasn't the Ukrainian government accusing Russia of violating their air space just a while ago? Considering the rebel was losing some territories just before this and they were all in the same area it could have been anyone who shot the plane down, assuming it's proven that the plane was shot down of course.

Ukraine did have a past history of bungling their air defence exercises...

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## xenon54 out

Rahul9090 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489864945366876160


RT getting more retarded every day.

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## EternalJives

@dexter, what's your point?

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## boomslang

DV RULES said:


> Well, than who gave gun to monkeys in Libya, Syria .......... and whom to blame? And who gave weapons to Israel to genocide Palestinians?



Who are these 'Palestinians' I keep reading about ?

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## MarkusS

Several other large airplanes were close to this when it happened. A Boeing 777 from Singapore Airlines and a 787 from Air India. Both were only 25 km away...and could have been a victim as well.


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## 500

UnChosen said:


> Wasn't the Ukrainian government accusing Russia of violating their air space just a while ago? Considering the rebel was losing some territories just before this and they were all in the same area it could have been anyone who shot the plane down, assuming it's proven that the plane was shot down of course.
> 
> Ukraine did have a past history of bungling their air defence exercises...


The Ukraine is unlikely, because prior being shot over rebel controlled area it flew hundreds of miles over the Ukraine.


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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489866539513151488


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## DV RULES

boomslang said:


> Who are these 'Palestinians' I keep reading about ?


You got the point and rest of your question is worthless to explain.


----------



## MOHSENAM

WW3 is soon.


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## boomslang

Didn't the Russian terrorists just capture a BUK missile base just the other day ? HMMMMMM ?

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## DV RULES

xenon54 said:


> RT getting more retarded every day.



truth ever hurts to those used to trust propaganda.

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## Superboy

Fact of the matter is, no airliner should have been flying over a war zone in the first place. It is the fault of the Ukrainian government for not restricting airspace over Ukraine.

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## MarkusS

Superboy said:


> Fact of the matter is, no airliner should have been flying over a war zone in the first place. It is the fault of the Ukrainian government for not restricting airspace over Ukraine.



That is not true. The airspace was open and secure.


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## BestUsernameEver

xenon54 said:


> RT getting more retarded every day.



They're not retarded. They're just continuing to use the decades old Soviet propaganda doctrine, which consists in large part of made up stories. This is called "active measures".






Active measures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How Putin Uses KGB-style “Active Measures”

Putin is a former KGB boss and RT is a state tv channel. No surprise really...

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## Superboy

MarkusS said:


> That is not true. The airspace was open and secure.




Pro Russia folks running all over the place. Yes they are also in Slavyansk. Every week Ukraine loses military aircraft. Open and secured? BS.

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## MarkusS

Superboy said:


> Pro Russia folks running all over the place. Yes they are also in Slavyansk. Every week Ukraine loses military aircraft. Open and secured? BS.



It was called secure from the EU flight control. Evry airline did fly over this area.


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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489869517582258177


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## In arduis fidelis

MarkusS said:


> That is not true. The airspace was open and secure.


We have already seen how secure it was.


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## xenon54 out

DV RULES said:


> truth ever hurts to those used to trust propaganda.


The only propaganda is the BS coming from Russian *state owned* RT.

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## MarkusS

Rafay Jamil said:


> We have already seen how secure it was.



What about "until now" did you not understand? Who could think that the russian terrorists would go this far?


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## Superboy

Let this be a stark warning for other airliners NOT to fly over eastern Ukraine.



MarkusS said:


> What about "until now" did you not understand? Who could think that the russian terrorists would go this far?




They are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters.

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## nvKyleBrown

Superboy said:


> They are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters.



I think they just convinced the world (excepting Russian shills) that they are, in fact, terrorists.

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## Superboy

nvKyleBrown said:


> I think they just convinced the world (excepting Russian shills) that they are, in fact, terrorists.




Pro Russia folks defend their land from pro EU folks. Don't want to get killed? Then get the HELL out of Novorossiya.

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## F-22Raptor

Star Wars said:


> Stop being so desperate and start thinking , these mobs you call separatists are incapable of arming and using complex SAM systems . Most of what they use is Manpads . And any plane going down in a war zone can be easily assumed as a Ukrainian military Aircraft considering the history of that place , so its no surprise he was celebrating .


 Desperate? No, it is highly likely that my version of the events took place. The Buk anti air system was confirmed by the AP to be in the hands of the separatists. They are not nearly as complex as you make out. Many of these fighters have past military experience, and its likely they are receiving covert training from the Russians. We already know they are receiving covert weapon shipments across the border. 

The separatists were referring to this plane, which is why they have deleted all their tweets since. No other aircraft was reported down at the time the 777 went down. It's obvious they were speaking of this plane. While you conjure up a fantasy in your head, I'll stick with the facts.

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## Chak Bamu

*Thread Cleaned (somewhat), posters warned, etc.... Please keep it civil and free of unfounded claims.*

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## JanjaWeed

joekrish said:


> But...would the Russians give in to that, without their help the investigation agency would not be able to get in.



Maybe a UN lead investigation with everyone's consent. Then again... fat chance of that being neutral either! One side or the other will dominate the proceedings!

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## Superboy

JanjaWeed said:


> Maybe a UN lead investigation with everyone's consent. Then again... fat chance of that being neutral either! One side or the other will dominate the proceedings!




Problem is, UN has 0 power and 0 use these days. UN has no investigation team. Methinks the truth will never be made public.


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## Rahul9090

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489875631648169984



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489875093057572865


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## Rahul9090

Reports that Putin flew similar route as MH17, presidential airport says 'hasn't overflown Ukraine for long time' — RT News


----------



## MAK 42

Ola said:


> News just coming in of yet another Malaysia Airlines flight crashing on the Russia - Ukraine Border. The flight originated in Amsterdam and was headed to Kuala Lumpur.
> 
> Its been a bad year for MH.





Nihonjin1051 said:


> Condolences to all families of the victims!


They say it was shot by Russia. Seems to be a plan to get Russia under pressure


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## LordTyrannus

xenon54 said:


> Ukraine army must clear his homeland from terrorists backed by JEW Russia.



Most stupid comment ever.

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## LordTyrannus

Superboy said:


> Problem is, UN has 0 power and 0 use these days. UN has no investigation team. Methinks the truth will never be made public.



UN is just a bunch of morons. Only force and kills count in this world.


----------



## xenon54 out

LordTyrannus said:


> Most stupid comment ever.


Was thinking the same about the comments of your types for the last couple years.

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## SouthDesi

boomslang said:


> Well, than who gave gun to monkeys in Libya, Syria .......... and whom to blame? And who gave weapons to Israel to genocide Palestinians?



If USA wasn't involved in ME affairs, these countries might have destroyed each other long time back. Be gratitude to USA for that.


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## xenon54 out

LordTyrannus said:


> You are too nervous. Why posting nonsense? Are you a fukin child?


The only nervous one is probably Putin in his office right now.

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## dexter

NEW VIDEO reportedly shows the moment that#MH17 crashed.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152331018091336


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## A.Rafay

saw it on the news. Shocking incident, Big lose for Malaysian Airlines,. RIP


----------



## A1Kaid

US should stay out of this whoever did it that's between Malaysia, Ukraine, and Russia.


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## LeveragedBuyout

A1Kaid said:


> US should stay out of this whoever did it that's between Malaysia, Ukraine, and Russia.



What about the US victims who were on board? This is just as much the business of the US as any other country.

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## IR1907

^^ There has been no US victims i think


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## xenon54 out

Airlines are avoiding Ukrainian airspace now.

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## A1Kaid

LeveragedBuyout said:


> What about the US victims who were on board? This is just as much the business of the US as any other country.




That hasn't been confirmed yet but there is speculation of 23 US citizens being killed. If there are US victims then US can have more leeway, but it already just passed sanctions on a Russian oil company which has hurt Russian stock market.

VP Biden says it has already sent an investigation team. What I'm saying no US military involvement is necessary.


----------



## Devil Soul

*Dr Shahid Masood* ‏@Shahidmasooddr  37s
Ukraine Officials claim to have data of call between Pro Russian separatists and a Russian Intel Officer before taking the plane down#MH17


----------



## Aepsilons

Donatello said:


> Oh lord, i can see dead people in there. They shouldn't post these pictures. It's the murder of the highest kind, if proven to be shot down. Putin needs to seriously think.





flamer84 said:


> The UK is calling for a UN meeting.Hopefully in the next few days the separatists will be indicted for terrorism and NATO will move in to establish order,there is no other way now,US,European citizens have been murdered in cold blood.



Correct. They must all be prosecuted until there is restitution.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> Bad luck for Malaysian airlines, just jinxed.


I wonder what made them fly over conflict zone
normally any sane commeriocal flyer will stay away from such places where opposing forces have ability to shoot down planes and its not that this plane was the first one
there were many planes shot down already over Ukraine recently


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## Aepsilons

The most important thing is that the bodies of the victims must be preserved and placed in morgues until they can be repatriated back to their homeland(s). America, and UK citizens should be sent back to their lands. And not buried in Ukrainian dirt.


----------



## Aepsilons

F-22Raptor said:


> All evidence points to the separatists shooting down this plane. They are the only ones that have been shooting down aircraft. They have received high end weapons systems and training covertly from Russia for weeks now. The Buk anti air system has been confirmed to be in the possession of the separatists within the last week. The separatists leader was boasting just an hour before this went public about shooting down a plane, and how they should stay out of their territory. The tweet has since been deleted. Some of you are just in denial.



Well said. Agreed.


----------



## SQ8

At this point I am only thread banning those acting like 9 year old girls having a girl fight. However, I have no problems in adding pink tutu's to complete that image for members who cannot keep their family jewels in control. 

Let the 280 dead have some respect.

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## Bratva

*Pro-Russian rebels discuss the shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines airliner*

*



*


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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> I wonder what made them fly over conflict zone
> normally any sane commeriocal flyer will stay away from such places where opposing forces have ability to shoot down planes and its not that this plane was the first one
> there were many planes shot down already over Ukraine recently



They have pre-planned routes. I suppose certain airlines opted out of it and others stuck to the risk. In either case, a Buk-M1 is a very potent system. And who ever used it , used it well. Considering that a Ukrainian Su-25 bit the dust recently, I would not discount a trigger happy rebel Sam user( _who would have no coordination with ATC nor would be interested as such_) to bring down a airliner in the race to claim more Ukrainian aircraft.


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## Donatello

Whoever did this, needs to be skinned alive in front of everyone. You simply have no excuse to pull a trigger without knowing the consequences.

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## Irfan Baloch

LordTyrannus said:


> You sound like a kid. I doubt that you own a gun


you must be a mind reader and posses some extra sensory perception that picks up sounds from words
can you guess if I am a toddler too since @boomslang is a kid? I must admit though I dont have much to show apart from some vintage British arms passed to me from my dad for his military service an Enfield .38 British revolver and Lee Enfield number 5 carbine.
must say they are a treat to shoot and beat the new local amrs hands down


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> They have pre-planned routes. I suppose certain airlines opted out of it and others stuck to the risk. In either case, a Buk-M1 is a very potent system. And who ever used it , used it well. Considering that a Ukrainian Su-25 bit the dust recently, I would not discount a trigger happy rebel Sam user( _who would have no coordination with ATC nor would be interested as such_) to bring down a airliner in the race to claim more Ukrainian aircraft.



Proper SAM operators are trained to first track and identify the aircraft, you can't just shoot it down just because you saw a blip on the radar. Each civilian airliner has a squak code for a reason that lets you know what it is, and as such a simple receiver (which you can literally build with off the shelf components, just like GPS receiver) is integrated with all such air-defense assets so they know who is who.


----------



## W.11

proud_indian said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489806169276678146



wow lol


----------



## SQ8

Both Ukraine and Russia have Buk-M2 missiles active. Ironically, google reveals that Malaysia was about to order the system ten years ago.


----------



## notsuperstitious

Donatello said:


> Whoever did this, needs to be skinned alive in front of everyone. You simply have no excuse to pull a trigger without knowing the consequences.



100% agree with the skinning alive part. What an ahole.

But I'm truly shocked the airline flew over area where its known SAMS are being fired to bring down hostile aircraft. This is just inexcusable. Those responsible for this must also be held accountable.


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## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> They have pre-planned routes. I suppose certain airlines opted out of it and others stuck to the risk. In either case, a Buk-M1 is a very potent system. And who ever used it , used it well. Considering that a Ukrainian Su-25 bit the dust recently, I would not discount a trigger happy rebel Sam user( _who would have no coordination with ATC nor would be interested as such_) to bring down a airliner in the race to claim more Ukrainian aircraft.


I was listening to the Ukrainian ambassador who said that most likely a manpad was involved the same thig that brought down the SU25.
he says the rebels were chest thumping over shooting down yet another Ukranian plane abut when they found out that it was a commercial airliner then they dont want to know
if something has reached 35K feet then it might be bigger than a Manpad

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## Jango

Irfan Baloch said:


> if something has reached 35K feet then it might be bigger than a Manpad



No question about it.

Various reports coming in, regarding photos of a missile found at the crash site, BUK launcher pictured in a nearby city with separatists and a separatists tweet regarding a threat for overhead flying.

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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> I was listening to the Ukrainian ambassador who said that most likely a manpad was involved the same thig that brought down the SU25.
> he says the rebels were chest thumping over shooting down yet another Ukranian plane abut when they found out that it was a commercial airliner then they dont want to know
> if something has reached 35K feet then it might be bigger than a Manpad



MANPADS cant make it to 35000 feet.. nor do they have the ability to pick out a target that high easily. Additionally, a MANPAD wont blow an airliner out of the sky that quickly. Even the Igla carries a 11kg warhead that would cripple the airliner but leave enough time for the pilots to call a distress. 
This was a large SAM that had a warhead in the order of around 50 Kg plus and a missile with a high terminal velocity. The Buk missile weighs around 700 Kg.. and a 70 kg warhead. That will kill an airliner and literally bring it crashing down as with this flight.

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## senheiser

nik141991 said:


> Reuters saying it was shot down



Reuters = western propaganda



MarkusS said:


> It was called secure from the EU flight control. Evry airline did fly over this area.



so the EU is to be blamed



al-Hasani said:


> RT are the exact same as their PISSTV cousins. Both should be banned. Horrible "news" outlets. No wonder that Russia and mullahistan are allies.
> 
> Only RT clowns can make such pathetic theories that would envy an alcoholic in a Danish bodega early Saturday morning.



comes from child molesters and womens beating media.



500 said:


> The Ukraine is unlikely, because prior being shot over rebel controlled area it flew hundreds of miles over the Ukraine.



they shot it down because of flase flag attack

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## senheiser

al-Hasani said:


> What is this kind of nonsense? Russians are the number 1 when it comes to murdering others and their own together with the Chinese.
> 
> Last time I checked Russian's are white too despite having Mongol/Uralic (non-Caucasian) admixture to various degrees.
> 
> Russia should be further sanctioned and Europe should find alternative energy suppliers. The sooner the better.



haha from Jihadists and womens beater like you who spread their wahbi islam into europe?



al-Hasani said:


> How about NATO string some trouble up in Russia? I mean Russian's are living on stolen land in most of their current territories. I think that Russia could be further divided like the failed USSR was.
> 
> In the meantime I suggest that Vladi returns to Siberia.



the only living ins tolen land are you saudis, which belongs to shias



Tunisian Marine Corps said:


> Russia terrorists they shot it down ..... why because they think it is cargo plane .... but don't mean they don't get punished for it .... i hope that Ukrainian army kill them all .. then kick Russians out


jawohl mein führer


----------



## Kaalapani

500 said:


> The Ukraine is unlikely, because prior being shot over rebel controlled area it flew hundreds of miles over the Ukraine.



I have seen same post once or twice from different posters or peoplE with multiple IDS.

SAMS fired from Ukraine can take out planes on enemy soil.

Logic fails.


----------



## Schutz

senheiser said:


> Reuters = western propaganda
> 
> 
> 
> so the EU is to be blamed
> 
> 
> 
> comes from child molesters and womens beating media.
> 
> 
> 
> they shot it down because of flase flag attack



Typical response, blame someone else and then claim false flag, you CANT do that for every single attack that has ever happened from Russia/Supporters, that is a very bloody region historically so always denying everything stinks of bullshit. They have to take the blame, people in that region value human life as much as I value that of a spider and one side always acting innocent is laughable, savages surrounded by savages, that area reminds me of Africa, people killing each other over politics, poverty, corruption, idealising leaders. The same uneducated people are just as likely to fire an AA missile into the sky thinking hooahh for the great leader Putin, lets defeat these Nazi dogs etcetc


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> MANPADS cant make it to 35000 feet.. nor do they have the ability to pick out a target that high easily. Additionally, a MANPAD wont blow an airliner out of the sky that quickly. Even the Igla carries a 11kg warhead that would cripple the airliner but leave enough time for the pilots to call a distress.
> This was a large SAM that had a warhead in the order of around 50 Kg plus and a missile with a high terminal velocity. The Buk missile weighs around 700 Kg.. and a 70 kg warhead. That will kill an airliner and literally bring it crashing down as with this flight.


thats true
the rebels have full compliment of dedicated bigger air defense equipment shoulder fired or man pad has only up to 2 to 6 km range.


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## Chak Bamu

@Kaalapani , watch it. You are skirting Thread Ban territory. Me and Oscar have already cleaned this thread three times. We can not go on wasting our time on other people's indiscretions and bickering.

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## Burger Boy

So if this was pro-Russian rebels then how exactly do they have access to something like Buk Missile system

Shouldn't "rebels" anti-air weapons only be limited to MANPADS....or is the Russian military occupying eastern Ukraine?

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## senheiser

Schutz said:


> Typical response, blame someone else and then claim false flag, you CANT do that for every single attack that has ever happened from Russia/Supporters, that is a very bloody region historically so always denying everything stinks of bullshit. They have to take the blame, people in that region value human life as much as I value that of a spider and one side always acting innocent is laughable, savages surrounded by savages, that area reminds me of Africa, people killing each other over politics, poverty, corruption, idealising leaders. The same uneducated people are just as likely to fire an AA missile into the sky thinking hooahh for the great leader Putin, lets defeat these Nazi dogs etcetc


 
lol we are africa? You egyptians are africans and poor and in turmoil since 100 years, your a backwards culture thats why youre mega poor. Its just that ukraine is completely backwards, we need to bring them civilisation.

Also even if we shot it down i still dont care because you westerners and other thought you could sit down and watch how russian and ukrainian brothers are killing each other but what goes around comes around.


god gave revenge against the foreign conspirators in ukraine


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## nangyale

There are already speculations about a false flag, about Ukie military aircraft seen flying next to the Malaysian aircraft, even about some parachutes seen near the place were the plane was shot down. I have even seen some speculations about Putin's official aircraft looking like the Malaysian one and that this could have been an attempt to shoot it down. Clearly the rumor mill is blasting at full power.

Still, the Ukies have already immensely benefited from this incident: now that all the media is completely focused on what happened to this Malaysian airliner, nobody is informed of the catastrophic failure of Poroshenko "surprise" offensive. Right there we already have the first _cui bono_ going to the junta. Second, *since no matter what happened the western regimes and media will blame the Russians for this incident, the Ukies will use it in their propaganda campaign *(they apparently have already asked NATO for "help" whatever that means). So that is a second _cui bono_ for the junta. As for the Novorussians and Russia, this incident is really the last thing they need.

For whatever it's worth, and without wanting to give anybody false hopes, I personally think that it is extremely unlikely that the Russians did it because they have a fully integrated, multi layered, advance air defense systems staffed only by specialists. In contrast, the Ukies have an old, decrepit, non-integrated air defense "system" staffed by underpaid, demoralized and poorly trained conscripts. And since the Kremlin likes to maintain the illusion that it does not control the Novorussians, even if there is proof that the latter are responsible for this catastrophe, this will not directly implicate Russia (which would have been the worst option). I hope that the Russians will be able to prove that the Novorussians did not do it by, for example, finding key parts of the missile(s) which hit MH17 or by showing all the Resistance missiles "unshot", right there in the hangars were they were found.

Another thing which has not been done is a careful calculation of the exact flight envelope of the missiles in Novorussian hands. In the real world, you cannot just say that a missile can shoot a target going at speed X and altitude Y. You need to calculate an exact flight envelope and compare it against the exact flight characteristics of the target supposedly hit. In other words, until somebody makes such an analysis, there is no proof that the Novorussian Buks could have shot down this aircraft.

Then, let's see what the black boxes show. Apparently, those were found by the good guys and sent to Moscow. Also, the Russian Air Defenses have the exact flight parameters of the Malaysian aircraft and of any missile(s) which could have hit him. If the Ukies did it, chances are pretty good that the Russians will be able to prove it. Alas, if the Novorussians did it, the Russians will probably also provide the evidence as covering up for it would be foolish.

For the time being, let's not run after each rumor and let's just wait for 48 hours or so, when at least we will have some facts to look at.

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## dlclong

Wait for the real conclusions

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## Counter-Errorist

nangyale said:


> , I personally think that it is extremely unlikely that the Russians did it because they have a fully integrated, multi layered, advance air defense systems staffed only by specialists. In contrast, the Ukies have an old, decrepit, non-integrated air defense "system" staffed by underpaid, demoralized and poorly trained conscripts.



Russians are arming the separatists who've got these SAMs capable of taking out the airline but no multi-layered, integrated air defense system to go with it. They probably don't even have a functioning radar.


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## jbond197

Damn, this is sick!! What the F is wrong with these people, they shot down a civilian airplane? Why?? What was the fault of those who were in the flight?

Looks like Malaysian airlines is jinxed. Till now I would have been scared flying in it over sea, but now even over land!!

RIP, the deceased souls!!


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## dlclong

Good or bad, all Westerners definition, we know that the result can only be screened after being them,
Maybe like MH370 same, so far without result.
There was the media said that the U.S. and Thai military exercises, MH370 was shot down

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## kbd-raaf

RIP


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## nangyale

Counter-Errorist said:


> Russians are arming the separatists who've got these SAMs capable of taking out the airline but no multi-layered, integrated air defense system to go with it. They probably don't even have a functioning radar.


Russians are helping the locals defend themselves against the neo-nazi onslaught. 
The Buk system that the rebels have is the one they got from Ukies, *not from Russia*. But it still has to be seen if that's the system which has been used. At this moment it seems highly unlikely. As They don't have the radar coverage and trained personnel to operate this system.
On the other hand the downing of this plane will help the Ukie cause immensely, especially since the establishment media is only going to parrot the Kiev propaganda. 
So if we were to go by circumstantial evidence it is clear that the only party that benefits is the Ukies. But like I said in my previous post it's too early to call, and we shall have more clearer picture in the next couple of days.


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## Imran Khan

this airline sucks man big time


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## nangyale

Imran Khan said:


> this airline sucks man big time


Nothing wrong with the airline.
Can you name a single airliner which can dodge sophisticated SAMs like Buk?

This is just the perfect example of being in wrong place at the wrong time.

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## Hyperion

I've been reading and reading.............so who did it? 

R.I.P......


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## IR1907

nangyale said:


> Nothing wrong with the airline.
> Can you name a single airliner which can dodge sophisticated SAMs like Buk?
> 
> This is just the perfect example of being in wrong place at the wrong time.



Can you name a airline whose airplane with 250+ people just ''dissapears'' ?

Malaysia airlines should be dissolved out of respect for the victims, or continue their work under a totally different name,logo etc


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## Allah Akbar

jbond197 said:


> Damn, this is sick!! What the F is wrong with these people, they shot down a civilian airplane? Why?? What was the fault of those who were in the flight?
> 
> Looks like Malaysian airlines is jinxed. Till now I would have been scared flying in it over sea, but now even over land!!
> 
> RIP, the deceased souls!!


The NATO should bomb the pro Russian rebel positions at once ! we want justice .


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## Lux de Veritas

French biggest newspaper Le Monde say the aircraft was shot down and this is act of war. French always spoil the show for USA corporate media.

*Google translate.*

According to this expert, the aircraft could not be shot by mistake impossible to confuse a civilian jet and a fighter plane. Indeed, each aircraft shall by a transponder (transmitter), and even the identity of the airline to which it belongs. With this transponder, radar ground stations can identify all the devices through their airspace.

According to the military specialist, to bring down a commercial airliner must have a "system of sophisticated weaponry of anti-air defense." This type of missile battery consists mainly of a radar to detect aircraft, a command post for the target and decide to kill him, and finally a platform to launch missiles to kill him. This specialist specifies that only a powerful missile can reach an airplane in the sky.

Indeed, the cruising altitude of an airliner is between eight and ten kilometers. Too high for arms MANPADS type

The opinion of the military specialist, the implementation of a battery of ground-to-air missile falls more appropriately "regular army" than of "nickel feet" as pro-Russian separatists. It states that such weapons mobilized a dozen soldiers skills sharp.

If the investigation proves, especially after examining the black boxes, the firing of the missile is the result of a "regular army", it can be considered an "act of war", he considers.


Le crash du Boeing de la Malaysia est « un acte forcément volontaire »

D'après cet expert, l'avion n'a pas pu être abattu par erreur : impossible de confondre un jet civil et un avion de chasse. En effet, chaque avion émet, par un transpondeur (un émetteur), son identité et même celle de la compagnie aérienne à laquelle il appartient. Grâce à ce transpondeur, les stations radars au sol peuvent identifier tous les appareils qui traversent leur espace aérien.

Selon le spécialiste militaire, pour abattre un avion de ligne il faut disposer d'un « système d'armement sophistiqué de défense anti-aérienne ». Ce type de batterie de missiles se compose principalement d'un radar pour repérer l'avion, d'un poste de commandement pour le cibler et décider de l'abattre, et enfin d'une plateforme de lancement de missiles pour l'abattre. Ce spécialiste précise que seul un puissant missile peut atteindre un avion en plein ciel.

En effet, l'altitude de croisière d'un avion de ligne se situe entre huit et dix kilomètres. Bien trop haut pour des armements de type manpads,

De l'avis du spécialiste militaire, la mise en œuvre d'une batterie de missile sol-air relève plutôt de la compétence « d'une armée régulière » que de celle de « pieds nickelés » comme les séparatistes prorusses. Il précise que ce type d'armement mobilise une dizaine de soldats au savoir-faire pointu.

Si l'enquête prouve, notamment après l'examen des boîtes noires, que le tir du missile est le fait d'une « armée régulière », il peut être considéré comme un « acte de guerre », juge-t-il.


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## Allah Akbar

Superboy said:


> Let this be a stark warning for other airliners NOT to fly over eastern Ukraine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters.


If the russian terrorists are freedom fighter then you are a moron !


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## Aepsilons

*Update*: Its not 295 dead, but 298. There were 3 infants on board. 

Malaysian airliner downed in Ukraine war zone, 298 dead| Reuters


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## thesolar65

Strigon said:


> Indeed. Everyday I wake up to atleast 100 people dead somewhere. What would it take for the world to live and let live for one day!
> 
> Maybe its our time to get hit by a meteor as well.



I would disagree with you, man. I mean in those days i.e before 80s there were no communication like today and that's why these deaths though unfortunate are big to us. Of course I do feel pain and nausea thinking about it and Gaza. But think about those days. We would not know for quite some days that some tens of thousand people are dead in Hurricane somewhere, or some where some massacre has happened of some lakhs of people or some earthquake or disease has killed tens of thousands (like Plague)!! So what can one do? Feel the pain, express anger and then move towards next sad news.....


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## Aepsilons

*BREAKING:*

The number of Britons killed in the Malaysia Airlines crash in eastern Ukraine has reportedly risen to nine.

Including the 15 crew members, this brings the total death toll in the disaster to 298.

Flight MH17 was said by eyewitnesses to have "exploded" after it was reportedly shot down by a ground-to-air missile.

The passenger jet crashed near the village of Grabovo.

Ukrainian officials say they believe all 283 passengers and 15 crew members died in the crash, which has been blamed on separatist rebels.

However, no group has yet admitted responsibility for bringing the plane down.

Those on board included nine British citizens, 154 Dutch passengers, 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians, four from Germany, four from Belgium, three from the Philippines, and one from Canada.

The rest of the passengers have yet to be identified. All 15 crew members were Malaysian.

@madokafc , @Indos , @JayMandan , @Pinoy , @MarkusS , @Peter C , @gambit , @F-22Raptor

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## SrNair

RIP.
But it seems it gave a nice interval for Israel.Till now all the world media was in the tail of Israel with so called human rights.But now they got a complete new subject and Israel start ground operation with little attention from media.

Any way time will tell who is behind this.


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## T-Rex

Imran Khan said:


> this airline sucks man big time



*Yeah, that show just how mature you are! I can't believe just how immature some people on this forum are!*

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## cirr

RIP

Now who are the culprits？

We all know who the indirect and ultimate culprits are。

They are those who landed Ukraine in its present warring state in the first place。

Fcuk and death to all those who turned this once great country into hell for their own petty gains。

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## Kabira

Indian pm Modi flight was in same corridor, one hour behind. :o


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## Star Wars

F-22Raptor said:


> Desperate? No, it is highly likely that my version of the events took place. The Buk anti air system was confirmed by the AP to be in the hands of the separatists. They are not nearly as complex as you make out. Many of these fighters have past military experience, and its likely they are receiving covert training from the Russians. We already know they are receiving covert weapon shipments across the border.
> 
> The separatists were referring to this plane, which is why they have deleted all their tweets since. No other aircraft was reported down at the time the 777 went down. It's obvious they were speaking of this plane. While you conjure up a fantasy in your head, I'll stick with the facts.



As i said Earlier there is absolutely no evidence to point out a missile even brought down the air plane . As far as we know Ukraine had Buk missiles deployed just days before this incident took place . So the only thing you are doing here is assuming and speculating . The evil Russians /separatists did it just because you hate them ?. There is absolutely nothing to back it up ...

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## Star Wars

Hyperion said:


> I've been reading and reading.............so who did it?
> 
> R.I.P......



Who ever gets the most benefit out of the incident is usually the one who does these things , but thats just me speculating ...


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## MarkusS

Superboy said:


> Let this be a stark warning for other airliners NOT to fly over eastern Ukraine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters.





Star Wars said:


> As i said Earlier there is absolutely no evidence to point out a missile even brought down the air plane . As far as we know Ukraine had Buk missiles deployed just days before this incident took place . So the only thing you are doing here is assuming and speculating . The evil Russians /separatists did it just because you hate them ?. There is absolutely nothing to back it up ...



Putin even admitted it in telling its Ukraine fault for not stoppimg the war. With that he basicly admits: yes we shot it down but its your fault because you did not surrender to my nazi politics...the seperatists admitted it too. Putin is plain and simly ****** and he knows it. He was isolated, now he is a persona non grata. It will get interesting now.


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## Tsilihin

Plane was downed in Ukraine territory so the guiltiness can be only on the incapability of the Ukrainian government.
They are responsible for approval of Commercial planes to fly over Ukrainian war zone ...
Or maybe they was think that is possible to make international conflict with the downed plane and to turn the view of of fact that they lost the war.

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## rohailmalhi

Or may be ....... Ukrainian rebel were fed with the wrong intel , maybe they were told that it was military plane .They took it down .
Objective were achieved.
Ukrainian made a statement that they need international help to fight with rebel , more money , weapons e.t.c. It gets even better when the plane was having mostly europeans onboard.
Bought bad name to rebels and put Russia in a bad place .
Steal all the media attention , away from mass killings by zonists. 

This is my conspiracy theory.......


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## narcon

rohailmalhi said:


> Or may be ....... Ukrainian rebel were fed with the wrong intel , maybe they were told that it was military plane .They took it down .
> Objective were achieved.
> Ukrainian made a statement that they need international help to fight with rebel , more money , weapons e.t.c. It gets even better when the plane was having mostly europeans onboard.
> Bought bad name to rebels and put Russia in a bad place .
> Steal all the media attention , away from mass killings by zonists.
> 
> This is my conspiracy theory.......



You are entitled to your opinions.
But opinions are formed without facts, once you have them (facts), you do not need opinions...


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## Strigon

I'm a little surprised by the lack of Malaysian response/care, or maybe I'm not seeing it.


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## acid rain

rohailmalhi said:


> Or may be ....... Ukrainian rebel were fed with the wrong intel , maybe they were told that it was military plane .They took it down .
> Objective were achieved.
> Ukrainian made a statement that they need international help to fight with rebel , more money , weapons e.t.c. It gets even better when the plane was having mostly europeans onboard.
> Bought bad name to rebels and put Russia in a bad place .
> Steal all the media attention , away from mass killings by zonists.
> 
> This is my conspiracy theory.......



If it was not for Gaza, it would be either US economic meltdown, or Afghanistan, or Africa or Iran or NK or some other random events that take place. Conspiracy theorists just need to come up with something leaving aside the plain fact.

The fact is its an international known air corridor, the fact is rebels / fighters have taken down aircrafts just a few days ago. The fact is rebel leaders claimed it downed and then retreated when they knew they messed up, 295 people are dead and someone is the culprit and will pay and conspiraciess dont hold up in court.

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## rockstarIN

WhAt was the altitude of the jet before it went missing?

Hand held SAM need visual contact with the jet to shoot it down. Otherwise it should be a radar guided or from a fighter jet. I think tables does not have both.


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## narcon

Strigon said:


> I'm a little surprised by the lack of Malaysian response/care, or maybe I'm not seeing it.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/490028698364436480


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## Jaam92

2nd tragedy this year for Malaysian Airline

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## Vassnti

rockstarIN said:


> WhAt was the altitude of the jet before it went missing?
> 
> Hand held SAM need visual contact with the jet to shoot it down. Otherwise it should be a radar guided or from a fighter jet. I think tables does not have both.


cruise 35000

sa11 launch not a hand held

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## Crypto

So both Malaysian planes had 'important scientists' onboard. Coincidence???

Conspiracies


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## Strigon

narcon said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/490028698364436480



Still the outrage is not as significant as it *should be*. Like protests, news interviews, day of mourning etc


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## Vassnti

Strigon said:


> Still the outrage is not as significant as it *should be*. Like protests, news interviews, day of mourning etc



Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott described the attack as an horrific act that “raises the stakes” in the dispute between Russia and the Ukraine, saying the Russia wanted to “stir up trouble” and that the likely attackers were “Russian proxies”. He said Russia was involved in an “outrageous” attempt to bully a neighbour.

Flags will be flown at half-mast across Australia tomorrow. Abbott also announced there would be a National Day of Mourning.

Australia Plans A National Day Of Mourning For The 28 Citizens Lost In The Ukraine Passenger Jet Disaster That Killed 298 | Business Insider


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## Strigon

Vassnti said:


> Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott described the attack as an horrific act that “raises the stakes” in the dispute between Russia and the Ukraine, saying the Russia wanted to “stir up trouble” and that the likely attackers were “Russian proxies”. He said Russia was involved in an “outrageous” attempt to bully a neighbour.
> 
> Flags will be flown at half-mast across Australia tomorrow. Abbott also announced there would be a National Day of Mourning.




Yeah well, I'm talking about Malaysian side in particular. 

Speaking of Tony Abbott, I saw this video. Like....he is kinda weird.

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## senheiser

Mudassar Jalil said:


> 2nd tragedy this year for Malaysian Airline



and for Boeing 777

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## Oldman1

Based on these transcripts, it was accidental shoot down of what they thought was a Ukrainian transport plane. Not deliberate. And based on Putin's response where he blamed Ukraine for the war that led to the destruction of the plane. Not blaming Ukraine for shooting it down. He knows it was the separatists' fault.

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## MarkusS

This ***** even has the guts to "pray" for the people he personal murdered:







This is an insult for the victims and their families. Look how they stand there, trying to make a sad face.

I don´t care if Putler and his crooks wanted this or not. Fact is that it happened. This is basicly a decleration of war against the EU. Against the USA. Against Australia, Against Indonesia, Against Malaysia.

I fully agree with the voices in our government who want isolate russia. And this act of terror will not be unanswered.

We already placed hard sanctions on them. This allows to take much bigger steps. Putin has become a persona non grata. He will never gain any support in the west again. The band is broken.

And this terror regime want host the next world cup? He can say good bye to that.

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## asad71

*Close Shave for Modi & Putin*

NEW DELHI: While the world struggles to come to terms with the shooting down of the Malaysian passenger aircraft that killed 298 passengers and crew over Ukraine, it has come to light that the Air India flight carrying Prime Minister Narendra Modi was on the same path as the MH17 Boeing 777, a report in The Hindu newspaper has claimed.



The newspaper reported that the prime minister’s flight back to India was rerouted after the incident, in which 298 people died. 

Modi’s flight – Air India 1 – had taken off from Frankfurt, Germany, about two hours before the Malaysian airliner was hit supposedly by a surface-to-air missile.

*The report said that Modi’s flight would have flown over the same area only some minutes after the Malaysian passenger jet was shot down had it continued on the same flight path.*

*Meanwhile, it is being speculated that Russian President Vladimir Putin whose flight back to Moscow too was through the same route might have been the real target of the rebels who purportedly shot down the MH17.*

Earlier, Putin blamed Ukraine for the incident saying that the nation bore responsibility for the downing of the Malaysian passenger plane and pointing out that it would not have happened if Kiev had not resumed a military campaign against separatists.

*Probe demanded*

World leaders demanded an international investigation into the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner over eastern Ukraine in which all 298 people on board were killed, a tragedy that could further heighten tensions between Russia and the West.

One US official said Washington strongly suspected a surface-to-air missile that downed the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on Thursday was fired by Ukrainian separatists backed by Moscow.

There was no evidence Ukrainian government forces fired a missile, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, speaking in Detroit, said the passenger jet was apparently "blown out of the sky".

More than 20 Australians were among the many nationalities aboard Flight MH17. The Netherlands was the worst affected, with 154 Dutch citizens on the downed plane.

The plane crashed near the village of Hrabove about 40 km (25 miles) from the border with Russia near the regional capital of Donetsk, an area that is a stronghold of rebels who have been fighting Ukrainian government forces for several months.

Ukraine accused pro-Moscow militants, aided by Russian military intelligence officers, of firing a long-range, Soviet-era SA-11 ground-to-air missile. Leaders of the rebel Donetsk People's Republic denied any involvement and said a Ukrainian air force jet had brought down the intercontinental flight.

Russian President Vladimir Putin - at loggerheads with the West over his policies toward Ukraine - pinned the blame on Kiev for renewing its offensive against rebels two weeks ago after a ceasefire failed to hold. The Kremlin leader called it a "tragedy" but did not say who brought the Boeing 777 down.

The loss of MH17 is the second for Malaysia Airlines this year, following the mysterious disappearance of Flight MH370 in March, which vanished with 239 passengers and crew on board on its way from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.

In Malaysia, there was a sense of disbelief that another airline disaster could strike so soon.

"If it transpires that the plane was indeed shot down, we insist that the perpetrators must swiftly be brought to justice," Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak told a pre-dawn news conference in Kuala Lumpur.

"This is a tragic day, in what has already been a tragic year, for Malaysia."

*National mourning in Netherlands*

Reuters journalists saw burning and charred wreckage bearing the red and blue Malaysia Airlines insignia and dozens of bodies in fields near the village of Hrabove.

"I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang," one local man told Reuters at Hrabove, known in Russian as Grabovo. "Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke."

An emergency worker said at least 100 bodies had been found so far and that debris was spread over 15 km (9 miles).

The airline said it was carrying 283 passengers and 15 crew.

The Netherlands declared a day of national mourning for its 154 dead. Twenty-eight passengers were Malaysian, 27 Australian, 12 Indonesian, nine British, four German, four Belgian, three Filipino and one Canadian. All 15 crew were Malaysian. Nationalities of the others aboard were unclear.

Ukrainian officials accused rebels of using a Soviet-era SA-11 missile system acquired from Russia - offering evidence that they may have believed they were firing on a Ukrainian military aircraft.


----------



## Nike

The list of Passengers who holding Indonesian Passports: 

1. Hadiono Gunawan/man
2. Yodricunda Theistiasih/woman
3. Ketut Wiartini/woman
4. Yuli Hastini/woman
5. Vickline Kurniati Kardia/woman
6. Supartini/woman
7. Hendry/man
8. Gerda Leliana Lahenda/woman
9. Werther Smallenburg/man
10. Jane M Hadi Soetjipto/woman
11. Wayan Sujana/man
12. Clarice Yelena Huizen/infant
May Allah accept them in heaven


This is acts of terrorism, someone must pay this barbarism.

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## HariPrasad

Archdemon said:


> Probably Russian thought it was Ukrainian military plane approaching Russia and shot it down.




Not Possible.


----------



## rohailmalhi

acid rain said:


> If it was not for Gaza, it would be either US economic meltdown, or Afghanistan, or Africa or Iran or NK or some other random events that take place. Conspiracy theorists just need to come up with something leaving aside the plain fact.
> 
> The fact is its an international known air corridor, the fact is rebels / fighters have taken down aircrafts just a few days ago. The fact is rebel leaders claimed it downed and then retreated when they knew they messed up, 295 people are dead and someone is the culprit and will pay and conspiraciess dont hold up in court.



thats y i called it a conspiracy theory ........ 

there are to many coincidences happening now a days...


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## Chak Bamu

As some sane analyst observed that it is EU/NATO over-reach that has precipitated this conflict and hence the present situation. 

I can not but agree with this view. Rather than keep Ukraine as a buffer state and an enduring channel for EU-Russia balance, EU/NATO has ensured that Russians adopt unconventional strategy to deal with them. As far back as early 90s Ukraine was suspected to be the fault-line that would rupture one day.

Western narratives invariably prop own interests in guise of human rights, democracy, & freedoms of various sorts, via monopolizing coverage via CNN, BBC, etc... I've been seeing all this develop in Iraq, Syria, & now Ukraine. However you see it, at the end of the day, it is about money, influence, and cutting off future challenges. Any improvement in human rights, or democracy, or freedoms are purely incidental.

I am reminded of the incident of Shoe-tossing at Bush by a journalist in Baghdad in Dec 2008 (?). I was visiting USA back then. I was surprised to see common gullible Americans wondering why someone would do this to the US President since he had 'liberated' and 'freed' Iraqis.

The proverbial shoe necklace that seems ready to be hung around Putin's neck really is made in EU.

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## HariPrasad

vostok said:


> It was Ukrainian who shot down Israel plane above Black Sea




How can i like the post to see the link?


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## nair

Chak Bamu said:


> As some sane analyst observed that it is EU/NATO over-reach that has precipitated this conflict and hence the present situation.
> 
> I can not but agree with this view. Rather than keep Ukraine as a buffer state and an enduring channel for EU-Russia balance, EU/NATO has ensured that Russians adopt unconventional strategy to deal with them. As far back as early 90s Ukraine was suspected to be the fault-line that would rupture one day.
> 
> Western narratives invariably prop own interests in guise of human rights, democracy, & freedoms of various sorts, via monopolizing coverage via CNN, BBC, etc... I've been seeing all this develop in Iraq, Syria, & now Ukraine. However you see it, at the end of the day, it is about money, influence, and cutting off future challenges. Any improvement in human rights, or democracy, or freedoms are purely incidental.
> 
> I am reminded of the incident of Shoe-tossing at Bush by a journalist in Baghdad in Dec 2008 (?). I was visiting USA back then. I was surprised to see common gullible Americans wondering why someone would do this to the US President since he had 'liberated' and 'freed' Iraqis.
> 
> The proverbial shoe necklace that seems ready to be hung around Putin's neck really is made in EU.



Sad part of the story is, It was innocent civilians from other countries and an air craft of a far away nation who paid the price for this strategic game....I read somewhere there are about 18 similar cases, out of which 2 are done by Russia, 1 by US, 1 by Israel, ....

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## Musafir117

RIP
It's just madness


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## Chak Bamu

nair said:


> Sad part of the story is, It was innocent civilians from other countries and an air craft of a far away nation who paid the price for this strategic game....I read somewhere there are about 18 similar cases, out of which 2 are done by Russia, 1 by US, 1 by Israel, ....



Stuff like this was bound to happen sooner or later; always does. This is the world we live in my friend. Strategy always trumps humanity, unfortunately.

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## Tsilihin

I cannot understand how is possible commercial airplanes to flying above the chaotic country and do not take account of safety of people who are on the plane ??


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## Zabaniyah

madokafc said:


> This is acts of terrorism, someone must pay this barbarism.



It is not an act of terrorism if it wasn't a Muslim who hit that button 

Gotta love the media.

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## vostok

Militias do have launcher of "Buk", but without radar it is just scrap metal, it can not be used. Militias do not have radar.

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## nair

vostok said:


> Militias do have launcher of "Buk", but without radar it is just scrap metal, it can not be used. Militias do not have radar.


Then the question is asked who gave the radar support? 

But i have seen a video of the impact of the aircraft.... I could not see any trace of smoke till it hit the ground.......


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## dexter

First Footage: Malaysia flight MH17 crash site.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=692634840790939


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## qamar1990

Rangila said:


> *: *


@WebMaster 

whats going on with liking all these posts to see the links? i like the post and i still can't see the link..


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## forcetrip




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## qamar1990

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I fear there were Japanese citizens aboard that plane. And if there were Japanese citizens on that plane, who ever is responsible for this heinous act will pay!


they shall no matter who is on that plane…. even if its a plane full of israeli soldier..


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## vostok

nair said:


> Then the question is asked who gave the radar support?
> 
> But i have seen a video of the impact of the aircraft.... I could not see any trace of smoke till it hit the ground.......


Junta almoust defeated. Several thousand soldiers and hundreds units of technics were surrounded in last 3 days. Hundreds of people have deserted. 
On Wednesday morning, out of Kharkiv to Donetsk (30 km from Donetsk) were deployed several battalions of "Buks" of junta. They have radars anf all need to shot. Nobody exept them could shoot the plane.

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## ashok321

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/490082457668956160


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## pokdo

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash: Top Aids expert Joep Lange among up to 100 researchers and activists on board - Europe - World - The Independent





*Mr Lange (far right) was with group on the way to an Aids conference*

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## Parul

Rest in peace!


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## Crypto

Possible video of jet plummeting from sky with right engine/wing on fire. 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=579774978797791

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## A.P. Richelieu

nangyale said:


> Russians are helping the locals defend themselves against the neo-nazi onslaught.
> The Buk system that the rebels have is the one they got from Ukies, *not from Russia*. But it still has to be seen if that's the system which has been used. At this moment it seems highly unlikely. As They don't have the radar coverage and trained personnel to operate this system.
> On the other hand the downing of this plane will help the Ukie cause immensely, especially since the establishment media is only going to parrot the Kiev propaganda.
> So if we were to go by circumstantial evidence it is clear that the only party that benefits is the Ukies. But like I said in my previous post it's too early to call, and we shall have more clearer picture in the next couple of days.



Exactly how did you get your hands on Ukrainan Armed Forces list of personel,
and what methods did you use to sort soldiers according to loyalty?
If you don't have that data you are just a hot-air producer.

It is entirely possible that East Ukrainan defectors include people trained on BUK.



Star Wars said:


> As i said Earlier there is absolutely no evidence to point out a missile even brought down the air plane . As far as we know Ukraine had Buk missiles deployed just days before this incident took place . So the only thing you are doing here is assuming and speculating . The evil Russians /separatists did it just because you hate them ?. There is absolutely nothing to back it up ...


According to our local news, the US has hard satellite data that proves it was a missile, but no data that shows
where it was fired from.

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## Screambowl

Crypto said:


> Possible video of jet plummeting from sky with right engine/wing on fire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=579774978797791



horrific!! 

How the hell in the day light they cannot recognize the civilian jet. Its a clear sky. Even from Binoculars one can recognize.


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## Götterdämmerung

This all sound like Operation Northwoods

Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the documents, the plan called for the following:


Since it would seem desirable to use legitimate provocation as the basis for U.S. military intervention in Cuba a cover and deception plan, to include requisite preliminary actions such as has been developed in response to Task 33 c, could be executed as an initial effort to provoke Cuban reactions. Harassment plus deceptive actions to convince the Cubans of imminent invasion would be emphasized. Our military posture throughout execution of the plan will allow a rapid change from exercise to intervention if Cuban response justifies.
A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.
Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in chronological order):
Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.
Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence" to stage attack on base.
Capture Cuban (friendly) saboteurs inside the base.
Start riots near the base main gate (friendly Cubans).[11]
Blow up ammunition inside the base; start fires.
Burn aircraft on air base (sabotage).
Lob mortar shells from outside of base into base. Some damage to installations.
Capture assault teams approaching from the sea or vicinity of Guantanamo City.
Capture militia group which storms the base.
Sabotage ship in harbor; large fires—naphthalene.
Sink ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals for mock-victims (may be in lieu of (10)).

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## RPK

*WASHINGTON --* Before Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 went down in Ukraine, it was following a flight path from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that its pilots should have been familiar with.

In the last two weeks, the plane flew roughly the same path 14 times, traversing the diagonal length of Ukraine to the Sea of Azov close to Crimea. But Thursday's route deviated slightly. The Boeing 777 went farther north than typical. It's unclear why.







Because of the conflict in the region, on April 3 the Federal Aviation Administration issued what's called a "notice to airman" prohibiting U.S. commercial flight operations in the airspace over Crimea and portions of the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. But the notice did not cover the airspace where the Malaysia Airlines jet crashed.










The wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is seen in Ukraine July 17, 2014.


The Malaysian prime minister Thursday said the plane's route had been considered safe, but after the plane went down, other aircraft began to avoid the region.

The FAA has announced U.S. planes will also stay out of that airspace.

No airline in the world has gotten as much scrutiny over the last four months as Malaysia Airlines. Since March, along with the Malaysian government, it has been part of an international effort to find its missing jetliner, MH370, which disappeared from radar with 239 people on board. It was en route to Beijing from Kuala Lumpur and is now believed to have crashed in the southern Indian Ocean.

Typically investigators try to get to the scene as quickly as possible, but in this case because it's a war zone, it's unclear if and when a U.S. team of investigators will go to the crash site.

*Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 deviated slightly from typical flight path - CBS News*


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## Devil Soul

*Australian family hit by both Malaysia Airlines tragedies*
By AP




Rodney and Mary Burrows were presumed dead on flight MH370. -Photo courtesy The Courier Mail
An Australian family has tragically been hit by both Malaysia Airlines tragedies, having now lost four members through flight MH370's disappearance and flight MH17 being shot down over Ukraine.

Irene and George Burrows, from Bileola, Queensland, were still mourning their son Rodney and his wife Mary after their plane vanished without a trace over the southern Indian Ocean in March, and will now have to grieve for their step-granddaughter Maree Rizk and her husband Albert who were aboard MH17.

The couple were travelling home from a holiday in Europe when the plane was shot down, according to the Sydney Morning Herald, with all 298 people on board perishing in the tragedy.

A recording of conversations between a man identified by Ukrainian media as a Russian military commander and a rebel fighter has emerged this morning, in which they are reportedly heard discussing the downing of a jet over eastern Ukraine shortly after MH17 fell in between Krasni Luch in Luhansk region and Shakhtarsk in the neighbouring region of Donetsk.

In one of the calls a man going by the name Bezler can be heard saying: “Just now a plane was hit and destroyed by the miners group.”

In a post on Russian social media site Vkontake, Igor Girkin, also known by the nom de guerre Strelkov, the commander of the pro-Russian Donbass People's Militia, is reported to have claimed that his forces shot down a plane in the Donbass region of eastern Ukraine at 5.50pm (GMT+4), shortly before reports emerged the passenger jet was missing.

According to a translation obtained by The Independent, he allegedly wrote: “We warned [sic] not to fly in our sky.”

Kiev has branded the event an "act of terrorism" and demanded a UN investigation, while Russian president Vladimir Putin has insisted it would not have happened if the Ukrainian government had agreed to a ceasefire.

Nine Britons died in the crash, along with 54 Dutch passengers, 45 Malaysians, 27 Australians, 12 Indonesians, four Germans, four Belgians, three Filipinos and one Canadian.


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## Götterdämmerung

A Spanish air-controller who works in Kiev twittered that minutes before the Malaysian plane went down, there were two Ukraine military jets escorting the passenger plane. His account has been deleted but his messages have been saved in archive:

✈ Carlos. (spainbuca) в Твиттере

Post the link into google translate and let it translate from Spanish to English.

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## Star Wars

Götterdämmerung said:


> A Spanish air-controller who works in Kiev twittered that minutes before the Malaysian plane went down, there were two Ukraine military jets escorting the passenger plane. His account has been deleted but his messages have been saved in archive:
> 
> 
> 
> Post the link into google translate and let it translate from Spanish to English.




So here is what we have ...

1 .Plane diverted directly into conflict zone
2. Two fighter Jets escorting the Passenger aircraft Over a conflict zone 
3. Separatists Captures a Buk Missile 
4. Ukraine also moves in Buk missiles with active Radar few days ago , there are also unconfirmed reports that their Radar was active when the plane was destroyed

any other info ??


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## flamer84

Star Wars said:


> So here is what we have ...
> 
> 1 .Plane diverted directly into conflict zone
> 2. Two fighter Jets escorting the Passenger aircraft Over a conflict zone
> 3. Separatists Captures a Buk Missile
> 4. Ukraine also moves in Buk missiles with active Radar few days ago , there are also unconfirmed reports that their Radar was active when the plane was destroyed
> 
> any other info ??




5.Separatists bragg about shooting down Ukr plane at the exact moment and location of the downed Malaysian flight.

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## sahaliyan

Götterdämmerung said:


> A Spanish air-controller who works in Kiev twittered that minutes before the Malaysian plane went down, there were two Ukraine military jets escorting the passenger plane. His account has been deleted but his messages have been saved in archive:
> 
> 
> 
> Post the link into google translate and let it translate from Spanish to English.


Fake
Ukraine Liveblog Day 151: Who Shot Down MH17? | The Interpreter


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## sahaliyan

Debunking The Myth Of 'Carlos - Spanish Air Controller in Ukraine'
14:08 (GMT)
Matthew Bennett, editor of_The Spain Report_, has debunked one of yesterday's many disinformation campaigns. Yesterday, a man who identified himself as "Carlos,"supposedly a Spanish air traffic controller working in Kiev, made many fantastical claims on Twitter about yesterday's events. According to Carlos, two Ukrainian jets shot down the airliner, and soldiers were raiding his traffic control tower in Kiev as the story was unfolding.

Bennett has received confirmation from the Spanish embassy that "Carlos," a man who made similar claims during the Maidan protests, does not exist. Bennett tells us that, "he was posting yesterday that he was a Spanish controller in a tower that was taken over by soldiers as events unfolded. As far as I know, he was the source of the 'MH 17 tailed by two Ukrainian fighters' story. He's been quoted quite a bit on RT [the Russian state-operated propaganda network] since yesterday, and gained several thousand new Twitter followers in just a few hours."

_The Spain Report_posted this note on their Facebook page:

Full reply from Spanish embassy to The Spain Report via e-mail on the existence of "Carlos, @spainbuca, the Spanish air traffic controller" in Ukraine:

"This is not the first time we have been asked about him. This "Carlos" was also active during the Maidán revolution in Ukraine.

We have no knowledge of "Carlos" having been in Ukraine. There is no record of his passing through the Consulate, and no one from the (relatively small) Spanish colony knows him.
The airport where he supposedly worked for several years told us at the time that all of their air traffic controllers are Ukranian, and that in any case they have never employed any Spaniard for that or any other task.

Furthermore, the last information he was posting before the airline tragedy was of the same sort. He was saying, for example, that he lived in Kiev and had been threatened by radical extreme-right elements. No Spaniard or national of another country—to my knowledge—has ever been threatened in this country."

As of now,Carlos's Twitter accountappears to have been removed.

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## Mercenary

Looks like the beginning of the end for these so called Rebels.

Europe will sanction Russia, USA and NATO will provide arms to Ukraine to wipe out these Rebels and retain control.

Overall, this incident is a disaster for Russia.


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## Avik274

Now I want to see some protest against Russia like we have seen against Israel?What would Muslim brothers mainly do..lets see!!matter of humanity!


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## Mercenary

Avik274 said:


> Now I want to see some protest against Russia like we have seen against Israel?What would Muslim brothers mainly do..lets see!!matter of humanity!



Muslims only care if non-muslims kill muslims.

And Non-Muslims like China are excluded from their rage.

If Israel kills 1 Palestinian vs China killing 1,000 Muslims....they will protest against Israel.

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## DV RULES

Mercenary said:


> Looks like the beginning of the end for these so called Rebels.
> 
> Europe will sanction Russia, USA and NATO will provide arms to Ukraine to wipe out these Rebels and retain control.
> 
> Overall, this incident is a disaster for Russia.



Look like so easy........
disaster for Russia??? huh......If a country could digest crash of polish plane in their own territory than that's after all on the other side of border. 

I don't know why you people turned quickly against Russia, they are also going in same manners as these NATO in your neighbourhood.

*Ukrainian Buk battery radar was operational when Malaysian plane downed - Moscow*

*On Thursday, when a Malaysian Airlines plane was apparently shot down over Ukraine, a Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational in the region, the Russian Defense Ministry said, contradicting Kiev’s statements.


The battery was deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner, the ministry said in a statement. It said radiation from the battery’s radar was detected by the Russian military. 

“The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30km south of Donetsk],” the ministry said in a statement. 

 The ministry said the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery deployed in the region, which was at a firing distance from the plane’s flight path. 

 Earlier Kiev said it could not have fired a missile at the passing civilian plane because it had no Buk missile launchers deployed in the region. At the same time the Ukrainians said the militias had no Buk systems in their hands, according to a statement from the country’s Prosecutor General. 

 After the Russian ministry came out with the statement, Bogdan Senyk, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Defense Ministry reiterated Kiev’s position, saying that "anti-aircraft missiles have not been deployed during the anti-terrorist operation ... they are all in place."

Ukrainian Buk battery radar was operational when Malaysian plane downed - Moscow — RT News
*

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## Soumitra

Woman, who lost her brother in MH370 tragedy, now loses daughter in MH17 crash - IBNLive

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## Vinod2070

Mercenary said:


> *Muslims only care if non-muslims kill muslims.*
> 
> And Non-Muslims like China are excluded from their rage.
> 
> If Israel kills 1 Palestinian vs China killing 1,000 Muslims....they will protest against Israel.



They don't really care.

They just make use of the opportunity to point fingers at others.

Caring means doing something about it, not just hand wringing in impotent rage.

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## senheiser

Soumitra said:


> Woman, who lost her brother in MH370 tragedy, now loses daughter in MH17 crash - IBNLive



Malaysia airlines set a world record



Strigon said:


> I'm a little surprised by the lack of Malaysian response/care, or maybe I'm not seeing it.


they are quite and use the western propaganda to be forgotten for their incompetence


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## Strigon

senheiser said:


> they are quite and use the western propaganda to be forgotten for their incompetence



I hardly see their incompetence here, besides the fact that they flew over a "No fly zone" still being considered safe for every airline. 

Usually airlines and pilots don't have training to dodge missiles, hardly their fault. But an expression of anger is due.


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## Icewolf

It was a Indian pilot... Nuff said.. Haha


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## yuba

Icewolf said:


> It was a Indian pilot... Nuff said.. Haha


Using the word ha ha on a plane crash you need to get yourself a life


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## Nike

vostok said:


> Militias do have launcher of "Buk", but without radar it is just scrap metal, it can not be used. Militias do not have radar.



Doesn't need a radar in the sites, Russian can give/support via data link to the Buk-M system, otherwise the rebels can't claim to have shoot down Ukrainian gov. AN-25 and Frogfoot previously.


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## Reashot Xigwin

*Deleted posts suggest Ukraine rebels downed Malaysian jet in error*
Social media posts by pro-Russian insurgents – most of them hastily removed – suggest the rebels thought they had shot down a Ukrainian army plane before realizing in horror that it was in fact a packed Malaysian airliner


* Dmitry Zaks, Agence France-Presse *
Published 7:12 AM, Jul 18, 2014
Updated 11:00 AM, Jul 18, 2014




WRECK. A man walks on July 17, 2014 amongst the wreckage of Malaysian airliner carrying 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur after it crashed, near the town of Shaktarsk, in rebel-held east Ukraine. Photo by Alexander Khudoteply

KIEV, Ukraine – Social media posts by pro-Russian insurgents – most of them hastily removed – suggest the rebels thought they had shot down a Ukrainian army plane before realizing in horror that it was in fact a packed Malaysian airliner.

The Twitter and blog messages were immediately publicized by top Kiev officials in their furious information war with the Kremlin for global opinion and the hearts and minds of ethnic Russians caught in the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War.

Confirmation of separatist fighters killing 298 passengers and crew on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would further complicate Russian President Vladimir Putin's efforts to paint their uprising as a fight for self-determination.

Russia's state media avoided any mention of the controversial posts and instead reported militia leaders' later charges that the Ukrainian air force had shot down the Boeing 777 liner instead.

*'We downed an An-26' *

The rebels first claimed to have downed at least one Ukrainian army plane over the strife-torn eastern rustbelt on late Thursday afternoon.

The VK social networking page of Igor Strelkov -- "defense minister" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic – first announced: "We just downed an An-26 near (the town of) Torez."

"And here is a video confirming that a 'bird fell,'" said the post.

The website then provides a link identical to that published by Ukrainian media in reports about the Malaysia Airlines jet.

The video shows locals referring to the same coalmine in the region mentioned by Strelkov.

The strongly pro-Kiev Ukrainska Pravda news site later posted an audio recording of what it claimed were the intercepted field communications between rebels and a Russian agent discussing the downing.

"We just downed a plane," a rebel the recording identifies as Bes (Demon) tells an alleged Russian military intelligence officer.

Another recording shows one alleged fighter reporting from the site of the plane's remains that it was "100 percent certain this is a civilian aircraft.

He spits out a Russian expletive when asked whether there were a lot of passengers on board.

*'We have seized missiles'*

The VK post was soon removed – but not before its screen grab was captured and distributed in an English-language press release by the military headquarters of Kiev's eastern campaign.

The comments attributed to Strelkov did not identify what missile was used to down the craft at what Kiev said was an altitude of 10,000 meters (33,000 feet).

But a message on the official Twitter account of the Donetsk People's Republic had announced hours earlier that insurgents had seized a series of Russian-made Buk systems capable of soaring to that height.

"@dnrpress: self-propelled Buk surface-to-air missile systems have been seized by the DNR from (Ukrainian) surface-to-air missile regiment A1402," said the post.

That tweet was later deleted as well.

*Putin says Kiev responsible*

Ukraine's pro-Western President Petro Poroshenko quickly called the incident a "terrorist act" and said he "could not exclude" that the plane was shot down by the insurgents.

But Putin said the incident would have never have happened had Poroshenko not ripped up a brief truce agreement and "resumed military activities in southeastern Ukraine".

Both separatist leaders and Russian defense officials also took pains to implicate Poroshenko's forces and erase all memories of the insurgents' initial pronouncements about downing a Ukrainian transport plane.

Rebel Donetsk prime minister Oleksandr Borodai told Russian media that his units did not have equipment capable of reaching the cruising altitude of a Boeing.

Borodai said it was "technically impossible" for the pro-Russian gunmen to have launched such a high-altitude strike.

And the Russian defence ministry argued that it was far more likely for the Ukrainian military to have fired the Buk missile.

"Statements by Kiev officials that such systems... were not used in air attacks arouse serious doubts," the Russian defence ministry said in a statement. * – Rappler.com*


Deleted posts suggest Ukraine rebels downed Malaysian jet in error

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## gau8av

CNN etc are out in full force pushing the _Russia/"Russian" rebels did it_ line... nato/west propaganda machine is full steam ahead

look at this propagandist joker, Richard Quest.. wasn't he caught high on meth with a rope tied around his genitals and drugs on his person not very long ago  New York, was it .. ? 

there's a huge propaganda operation underway by the west at this time, I take it all with a fistful of salt and a shot of tequila but what's the counter for Strelkov's tweets right after news of the crash broke ? they're all over it like flies on shit 

@vostok .. any inputs on the Strelkov tweet controversy ?


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## Bobshouse

One thing is absolutely certain from a purely military strategic standpoint. Russia has no idea when it come to cold hard forward thinking military strategic thinking. They hasnt displayed any forward thinking military intelligence in the last 100 years. Somebody please point to specific example and prove me wrong please. Anybody? Any Example?

This is just ging to push ex soviet states towards Europe and possibly NATO membership

Russia is going to take a big bite of a dog turd sandwich here. The average Russian citizen is going to feel it via heavy sanctions unfortunately.


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## Serpentine

Very shocking news:

*Flight MH17 crash: Was the cure for AIDS lost along with 100 top researchers?*



> Joep Lange, a world-renowned researcher and former president of the International AIDS Society, was with the group heading to the global AIDS 2014 conference in Melbourne, Australia.
> 
> The exact number of scientists he was travelling with has not been confirmed but delegates in Sydney were told that emails indicated around 100 attendees were on the ill-fated plane.
> 
> Nine British passengers, including a student, former BBC journalist and two Newcastle United fans, were among the 298 people killed when the Boeing 777-200 was reportedly shot down as it passed over the war-torn country on Thursday.
> 
> Trevor Stratton, a Canadian HIV researcher attending the conference told ABC researchers had been getting close to a vaccine against AIDS.
> 
> "What if the cure for AIDS was on that plane? Really? We don't know," he said.
> 
> "There were some really prominent researchers that have been doing this for a very long time and we're getting close to vaccines and people are talking about cures and the end of AIDS.



Flight MH17 crash: Was the cure for AIDS lost along with 100 top researchers? - The Times of India


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## illusion8

*1) Rebels aim higher*

The first evidence comes from earlier this week, with the downing of an An-26 Ukrainian military transport plane (pictured below) on Monday in Lugansk. Crucially, the aircraft was flying at 6,500m when it was hit. At such an altitude the plane was well beyond the range of the anti-aircraft weaponry that rebel forces were known to have at their disposal. If they had shot it down as they said, they did so with a new piece of equipment hitherto unseen in their arsenal.

Rebel leaders insist they do not possess rocket launchers capable of hitting MH17, which was flying at 10,000m, but they would have needed one to have hit the An-26.


*2) The rebel armoury*

The second set of evidence against the rebels comes from open-source social media. It points to the kind of anti-aircraft system that could hit a plane at 6,500 or 10,000m.

On June 29, an official account of the Donetsk rebels tweeted a picture of a Russian-made Buk missile launcher – a large, vehicle-mounted missile system with a range of more than 11,000m. The picture, which has since been deleted, was accompanied by text claiming the launcher was in the rebels’ possession.
Where it came from is not clear. In late June rebel forces over-ran a small military base near Donetsk that houses anti-aircraft unit A1402 of the Ukrainian army. It is possible that they captured the launcher in doing so. The Ukrainian ministry of defence, however, has said it has accounted for all 60 of those it operates.

Speaking to the BBC on Friday morning, the Ukrainian ambassador to Nato said he was in no doubt the Buk launcher had come from Russia.

Claiming their equipment was captured when it fact it was smuggled over the border has also long been part of the rebel playbook. “They try to cover Russian arms supply by publicly stating they have captured equipment in the days or weeks before they use it,” says Igor Sutyagin, a research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute and an expert on Russian weaponry and tactics.


*3) Buk missiles in the area*

The third set of evidence, again from open-source social media, purports to show a Buk system being moved around by rebel forces in the past 24 hours in the area of the attack on MH17. 
The FT has reviewed numerous pictures and videos of a Buk launcher from different sources online. Their exact date and location cannot be verified, but image checking software indicates they are not historic. And in some, landmarks can be identified that indicate the location is indeed the town of Torez, close to where MH17 was blown up.

Several witness accounts of Torez locals also now claim to have seen a Buk launcher in the town. A video on YouTube shows a Buk launcher travelling along the road from Torez to Snizhne.The Buk system in question was “transported to Russia overnight . . . where it will likely be destroyed”, Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s interior minister, claimed on Friday in a Facebook posting citing intelligence.





Late on Friday morning another video surfaced on YouTube purportedly from eastern Ukraine. Depicted in it: a Buk, barely covered in a tarpaulin on the back of a lorry, driving away at speed towards the Russian border.







*4) The rebel boast*

The fourth piece of evidence was a claim made by Igor Strelkov, the rebels’ military commander, on his official page on a Russian social media site soon after Flight MH17 crashed. Mr Strelkov boasted that separatists had downed a Ukrainian An-26 military transport plane “in the area of Torez”.

“We warned them not to fly in ‘our sky’,” he said, adding there was video confirmation of the latest “bird drop”.

Around the same time, Russia’s state-controlled RIA-Novosti news agency carried a report, citing local “witnesses”, that a Ukrainian An-26 had been shot down “near the Progress coal mine” – the same location given by Mr Strelkov. Reporters from Russia’s LifeNews channel, seen as close to the Russian security establishment, rushed to the scene apparently believing a Ukrainian military plane had been shot down.

No An-26 was downed, indicating that the rebels may have mistakenly targeted MH17 and only later realised their mistake.

Indeed, Mr Strelkov’s post was hastily deleted as the reality of the situation became clear, and he said posts under his name were coming directly from the field, not from him. He denied claiming responsibility for downing the transport plane.


*5) The intercepts*

The fifth set of evidence is the most clear-cut. On Thursday evening, the SBU, Ukraine’s security service, released recordings of several conversations it alleged were between separatist rebels. Some involve senior commanders, including Colonel Vasyl Mykolaiovych Geranin, who the SBU say is a serving Russian military officer.
“Just now a plane was hit and destroyed by the miners group,” one rebel called Besler tells Colonel Geranin.
“On TV they’re saying now that it is an An-26, a Ukrainian transporter. But what’s written on it is Malaysia Airlines,” another recording says. “There is a sea of bodies, women, children.”

The recording is clear and gives no indication of having been staged. Western intelligence officials told the FT they believed it to be accurate.

FT

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## A.P. Richelieu

Star Wars said:


> So here is what we have ...
> 
> 1 .Plane diverted directly into conflict zone
> 2. Two fighter Jets escorting the Passenger aircraft Over a conflict zone
> 3. Separatists Captures a Buk Missile
> 4. Ukraine also moves in Buk missiles with active Radar few days ago , there are also unconfirmed reports that their Radar was active when the plane was destroyed
> 
> any other info ??


According to CNN, there was bad weather on a more southern route, so several planes got rerouted.


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## MarveL

According to Flight radar24, which also monitors live flight paths, the airlines that most frequently flew over Donetsk in the last week were: Aeroflot (86 flights), Singapore Airlines (75), Ukraine International Airlines (62), Lufthansa (56), and Malaysia Airlines (48).

At the time of the MH17 crash on 17 July, a number of other flights were in the area.
Selected flights over eastern Ukraine on the afternoon of 17 July







In the 48 hours running up to the MH17 crash, many airlines had chosen to keep flying in the area, data from flight tracker Planefinder shows.


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## Aepsilons

madokafc said:


> The list of Passengers who holding Indonesian Passports:
> 
> 1. Hadiono Gunawan/man
> 2. Yodricunda Theistiasih/woman
> 3. Ketut Wiartini/woman
> 4. Yuli Hastini/woman
> 5. Vickline Kurniati Kardia/woman
> 6. Supartini/woman
> 7. Hendry/man
> 8. Gerda Leliana Lahenda/woman
> 9. Werther Smallenburg/man
> 10. Jane M Hadi Soetjipto/woman
> 11. Wayan Sujana/man
> 12. Clarice Yelena Huizen/infant
> May Allah accept them in heaven
> 
> 
> This is acts of terrorism, someone must pay this barbarism.




Our heartfelt condolences to all the citizens of Indonesia. 

_Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. *Amen*._

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## Lux de Veritas

MH17: Russia Today presenter Sara Firth quits over Malaysia Airlines crash coverage - Media - News - The Independent

Sara Firth quit the post she has held at the Moscow based station for five years over what she described as their “total disrespect to the facts”, claiming on Twitter that the RT style guide rule one is: "It is ALWAYS *Ukraine's fault.

Firth, who was a London-based correspondent, told the Press Gazette: “It’s scary that it’s genuine RT guidance on how to do a story, and you have to believe it to succeed there. You stop believing that what they say is the way it is and you stop being useful to them.”


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## senheiser

Lux de Veritas said:


> MH17: Russia Today presenter Sara Firth quits over Malaysia Airlines crash coverage - Media - News - The Independent
> 
> Sara Firth quit the post she has held at the Moscow based station for five years over what she described as their “total disrespect to the facts”, claiming on Twitter that the RT style guide rule one is: "It is ALWAYS *Ukraine's fault.
> 
> Firth, who was a London-based correspondent, told the Press Gazette: “It’s scary that it’s genuine RT guidance on how to do a story, and you have to believe it to succeed there. You stop believing that what they say is the way it is and you stop being useful to them.”


just another one who wants more money


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## Lux de Veritas

senheiser said:


> just another one who wants more money





Nihonjin1051 said:


> Our heartfelt condolences to all the citizens of Indonesia.
> 
> _Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. *Amen*._



Right now I have yet another hypothesis on why the plane was downed. Before, I suspected Ukraine because I think they are more gangster. I suspect less of the rebel because militias generally do not have the SAM capabilities to hit commercial jet. Only regulars of sovereigns are capable of pulling that off.

Now I wonder if there is a scenario whereby Russia deploy some of their regular SAM units in Ukraine. These units may not have enough capabilities to fully identify incoming aircraft. Under combat condition whereby Ukraine deploy her air superiority against the militias, the militias may get fatigue. Then MAS flew by combat zone, and it was mistaken as military aircraft.

Russia and USA will KNOW who did it by now. USA, especially has the Space-Based Infrared System (SBIRS), on their satellite. The infrared footprint of a SAM that is capable of striking an airliner is not small and readily detectable.

Space-Based Infrared System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






This is just my 2nd hypothesis.


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## F-22Raptor

High-tech spycraft tracked missile's path to Malaysia Airlines jet - LA Times

Article on the advanced US satellites used to identify and track the missile launch.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Jayhawk

This is just so wrong. My prayers and thoughts with the victims family.


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## vK_man

First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the “pin and shrapnel” warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything. 

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27

@senheiser @Lux de Veritas

Reactions: Like Like:
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## vostok

madokafc said:


> Doesn't need a radar in the sites, Russian can give/support via data link to the Buk-M system, otherwise the rebels can't claim to have shoot down Ukrainian gov. AN-25 and Frogfoot previously.


Militias have working complex Strela-10, which they use along with MANPADS. But no working radar for "Buk" .
You must understand the difference between junta, which burned alive dozens of people in Odessa and then boastfully showed these pictures to the whole world and militias - people with the chivalric ideals that simply protect their land from Kiev Nazi occupiers. This provocation of fascists, their handwriting.


----------



## vostok

gau8av said:


> CNN etc are out in full force pushing the _Russia/"Russian" rebels did it_ line... nato/west propaganda machine is full steam ahead
> 
> look at this propagandist joker, Richard Quest.. wasn't he caught high on meth with a rope tied around his genitals and drugs on his person not very long ago  New York, was it .. ?
> 
> there's a huge propaganda operation underway by the west at this time, I take it all with a fistful of salt and a shot of tequila but what's the counter for Strelkov's tweets right after news of the crash broke ? they're all over it like flies on shit
> 
> @vostok .. any inputs on the Strelkov tweet controversy ?


As always, the West uses provocation. I think it's all been done to justify the "help" to junta with weapons to fight "terrorists", or even to enter troops.


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

Lux de Veritas said:


> Right now I have yet another hypothesis on why the plane was downed. Before, I suspected Ukraine because I think they are more gangster. I suspect less of the rebel because militias generally do not have the SAM capabilities to hit commercial jet. Only regulars of sovereigns are capable of pulling that off.
> 
> Now I wonder if there is a scenario whereby Russia deploy some of their regular SAM units in Ukraine. These units may not have enough capabilities to fully identify incoming aircraft. Under combat condition whereby Ukraine deploy her air superiority against the militias, the militias may get fatigue. Then MAS flew by combat zone, and it was mistaken as military aircraft.
> 
> Russia and USA will KNOW who did it by now. USA, especially has the Space-Based Infrared System (SBIRS), on their satellite. The infrared footprint of a SAM that is capable of striking an airliner is not small and readily detectable.
> 
> Space-Based Infrared System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is just my 2nd hypothesis.


Just watched the news (TV4, Nyhetsmorgon 08:00), and they cite Reuters claiming that US intelligence sources now have proof that the plane was shot down by a missile, and the missile came from territory held by separatists.

The proof comes from a spy satellite normally used to detect ICBMs with IR detectors.
Separatists are also limiting access for international investigators, including warning shots.



vK_man said:


> First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1
> 
> Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html
> 
> Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the “pin and shrapnel” warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.
> 
> But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27
> 
> @senheiser @Lux de Veritas


And already now, we know that you are wrong.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Pakistanisage

RIP for the unfortunate Passengers. Shame on the attackers for this inhumane act.


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## Hack-Hook

boomslang said:


> Sort of like IranAir ?


well Iran Air was not a war zone , it was just an American trigger happy cowboy who entered Iranian water were there would have been no skirmish , nd by the way still can't understand how a USA navy personnel would ever think that an F-14A was on a mission to attack their ships.



500 said:


> The Ukraine is unlikely, because prior being shot over rebel controlled area it flew hundreds of miles over the Ukraine.


It was more useful for them for it to fall in a place that can be blamed on separatist , and as a matter of fact it get shot down in a place you could not ruleout Ukraine. now tell me what was to point of attacking the plane over Kiev ?


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## vK_man

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Just watched the news (TV4, Nyhetsmorgon 08:00), and they cite Reuters claiming that US intelligence sources now have proof that the plane was shot down by a missile, and the missile came from territory held by separatists.
> 
> The proof comes from a spy satellite normally used to detect ICBMs with IR detectors.
> Separatists are also limiting access for international investigators, including warning shots.
> 
> 
> And already now, we know that you are wrong.



reuters? corporate propaganda. we know who is behind the junta and its lies.


----------



## Hack-Hook

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Just watched the news (TV4, Nyhetsmorgon 08:00), and they cite Reuters claiming that US intelligence sources now have proof that the plane was shot down by a missile, and the missile came from territory held by separatists.
> 
> The proof comes from a spy satellite normally used to detect ICBMs with IR detectors.
> Separatists are also limiting access for international investigators, including warning shots.



In news it was the plane crashed with a missile but they said they don't knew where the missile come from.



vK_man said:


> First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1
> 
> Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html
> 
> Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the “pin and shrapnel” warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.
> 
> But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27
> 
> @senheiser @Lux de Veritas



Very Interesting . at least it's something that can be checked individually . not just some speculation and baseless accusation .


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

JEskandari said:


> In news it was the plane crashed with a missile but they said they don't knew where the missile come from.


That was Yesterday, same report in Sweden.
Today they say they can tell where it came from - an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists.
Will try to find the original Reuters bulletin, messages passing through several mouths can get twarted.


----------



## ptldM3

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Just watched the news (TV4, Nyhetsmorgon 08:00), and they cite Reuters *claiming that US intelligence sources now have proof* that the plane was shot down by a missile, and the missile came from territory held by separatists.
> 
> The proof comes from a spy satellite normally used to detect ICBMs with IR detectors.
> Separatists are also limiting access for international investigators, including warning shots.
> 
> 
> And already now, we know that you are wrong.





The US would have to physically provide proof of the launch location, word of mouth means nothing. Furthermore, this would have to be cross examined with other satellites from other countries. Moreover, the battlefield is always changing and the Ukrainians military and rebels are fighting up close and personal.

It should also be noted that Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner and denied it, so we know they are incompetent and they lie, we also have pictures of the Ukrainian military with Buk in the same area where the airliner was shot down.




The US has an agenda in Ukraine, of course they will claim it was fired from separatist territory, but that does not make it true. The US has been caught time after time lying about what is going on in Ukraine. Russia has been taking the blame in Ukraine for everything; likewise, everything that is coming from Russia is a lie, everything that is coming from Ukraine is true. All of the atrocities committed by the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian nationalists is simply ignored in the west.


When journalists confront the State Department about Ukrainian military targeting civilians the State Department goes into denial and even shamelessly praises Ukraine for "restraint" despite Ukraine using heavy artillery in civilian areas which resulted in hundreds of deaths, and a pattern of purposeful targeting of civilians. When confronted with a UN report about 110,000 Ukrainian refuges fleeing into Russia the State department claimed "we can't confirm that" basically denying facts. When confronted about Russian minorities being targeted the State Department goes into denial despite overwhelming video evidence not to mention there has been no condemnation for Ukrainian politicians and high ranking military generals calling for the extermination of Russians, calling for deporting east Ukrainians and putting them in concentration camps, threatening to murder civilians for every Ukrainians soldier killed, calling Russians derogatory names such as Moskol. Let me remind everyone this is coming from the Ukraine's most powerful leaders.

The pattern is obvious in Ukraine, if tomorrow Ukrainian soldiers execute 1000 innocent people and have it on camera it would not make news in the west, the west would simply ignore it like they did Odessa, Slavyansk, ect.


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

ptldM3 said:


> The US would have to physically provide proof of the launch location, word of mouth means nothing. Furthermore, this would have to be cross examined with other satellites from other countries. Moreover, the battlefield is always changing and the Ukrainians military and rebels are fighting up close and personal.
> 
> It should also be noted that Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner and denied it, so we know they are incompetent and they lie, we also have pictures of the Ukrainian military with Buk in the same area where the airliner was shot down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The US has an agenda in Ukraine, of course they will claim it was fired from separatist territory, but that does not make it true. The US has been caught time after time lying about what is going on in Ukraine. Russia has been taking the blame in Ukraine for everything; likewise, everything that is coming from Russia is a lie, everything that is coming from Ukraine is true. All of the atrocities committed by the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian nationalists is simply ignored in the west.
> 
> 
> When journalists confront the State Department about Ukrainian military targeting civilians the State Department goes into denial and even shamelessly praises Ukraine for "restraint" despite Ukraine using heavy artillery in civilian areas which resulted in hundreds of deaths, and a pattern of purposeful targeting of civilians. When confronted with a UN report about 110,000 Ukrainian refuges fleeing into Russia the State department claimed "we can't confirm that" basically denying facts. When confronted about Russian minorities being targeted the State Department goes into denial despite overwhelming video evidence not to mention there has been no condemnation for Ukrainian politicians and high ranking military generals calling for the extermination of Russians, calling for deporting east Ukrainians and putting them in concentration camps, threatening to murder civilians for every Ukrainians soldier killed, calling Russians derogatory names such as Moskol. Let me remind everyone this is coming from the Ukraine's most powerful leaders.
> 
> The pattern is obvious in Ukraine, if tomorrow Ukrainian soldiers execute 1000 innocent people and have it on camera it would not make news in the west, the west would simply ignore it like they did Odessa, Slavyansk, ect.


So by Your logic, if the Ukrainans shot down MH17, it would have been ignored by Western Media.
Since it is all over the news, this is proof, they did not do it!

(Failed Logic, but could not resist)

I do agree that accusations have to be backed up by documentation.

BTW: What has been ignored? Odessa fire reported over several days,
and use of heavy arms in Slavyansk also reported.


----------



## ptldM3

Bobshouse said:


> One thing is absolutely certain from a purely military strategic standpoint. *Russia has no idea when it come to cold hard forward thinking military strategic thinking. *They hasnt displayed any forward thinking military intelligence in the last 100 years. Somebody please point to specific example and prove me wrong please. Anybody? Any Example?
> 
> This is just ging to push ex soviet states towards Europe and possibly NATO membership
> 
> Russia is going to take a big bite of a dog turd sandwich here. The average Russian citizen is going to feel it via heavy sanctions unfortunately.




You are dismissed, some of the greatest defensive and offensive military strategies have come from the Soviet Union. Some of the largest military operations in history such as Kursk required required massive planning, concealment, reconnaissance, ect, The biggest strategy came in planing assaults, defenses, deciding how much reserves to use and when, deciding when to fall back, what devisions to use, ect, ect.

Like i said you are dismissed.


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

*Russia helping rebels to destroy evidence at MH17 crash site: Ukraine*

Kiev: Ukraine on Saturday accused Russia of helping separatist insurgents they say shot down Malaysian airliner MH17 try to destroy evidence at the crash site

"The Ukrainian government officially announces: terrorists with the support of Russia are trying to destroy proof of this international crime," Ukraine's government said in a statement.

*It adding that rebels had removed 38 bodies from the scene and were blocking Ukrainian investigators from accessing the site*. 

Rebels trying to destroy crash evidence `with Russian support`: Kiev


----------



## ptldM3

A.P. Richelieu said:


> So by Your logic, if the Ukrainans shot down MH17, it would have been ignored by Western Media.
> Since it is all over the news, this is proof, they did not do it!
> 
> (Failed Logic, but could not resist)
> 
> I do agree that accusations have to be backed up by documentation.




No if was shot down by the Ukrainians it would simply be blamed on Russia. Everything is blamed on Russia, heck the Odessa massacre was being blamed on Russia by some politicians.

The Ukrainians military has killed a lot more then 295 civilians, where is the outrage? I am not taking sides on who shot down the aircraft, for now it is a 50/50 split. Ukraine's checkered past of shooting down civilian airliners and denying it does not help their case, either does the fact that a Ukrainian Buk was photographed in the area.



Peaceful Civilian said:


> *Russia helping rebels to destroy evidence at MH17 crash site: Ukraine*
> 
> Kiev: Ukraine on Saturday accused Russia of helping separatist insurgents they say shot down Malaysian airliner MH17 try to destroy evidence at the crash site
> 
> "The Ukrainian government officially announces: terrorists with the support of Russia are trying to destroy proof of this international crime," Ukraine's government said in a statement.
> 
> *It adding that rebels had removed 38 bodies from the scene and were blocking Ukrainian investigators from accessing the site*.
> 
> Rebels trying to destroy crash evidence `with Russian support`: Kiev




Oh god....the news coming out of Ukraine is comical, Russia is at fault for everything, Ukrainian "proof" has been nothing more then cheap propaganda with zero evidence and usually many claims made by Ukraine has been proven false.


----------



## flamer84

ptldM3 said:


> No if was shot down by the Ukrainians it would simply be blamed on Russia. Everything is blamed on Russia, heck the Odessa massacre was being blamed on Russia by some politicians.
> 
> The Ukrainians military has killed a lot more then 295 civilians, where is the outrage? I am not taking sides on who shot down the aircraft, for now it is a 50/50 split. Ukraine's checkered past of shooting down civilian airliners and denying it does not help their case either does the fact that a Ukrainian Buk was photographed in the area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god....the news coming out of Ukraine is comical, Russia is at fault for everything, Ukrainian "proof" has been nothing more then cheap propaganda with zero evidence and usually many claims made by Ukraine has been proven false.




It would be more humane if you would just express regrets for what Russia did and be done with it.295 people were murdered by the separatists (most likely by the Russian advisors manning the missile systems) and even in death their memory is tarnished by yours and others propaganda.All the evidences (radar location-sep areea,tweeter vkontakt messages,bragging of the seps,the previous downing of Ukr aircraft) point to one direction -Russians.You f-ed people,at least own to the horror you've created instead of digging your hole even deeper.You know it,I know it,all of the world knows it now,that's why one by one countries start to name the seps and Russia directly.No doubt that in the next few days more and more will accuse you of this crime.


----------



## Hack-Hook

flamer84 said:


> It would be more humane if you would just express regrets for what Russia did and be done with it.295 people were murdered by the separatists (most likely by the Russian advisors manning the missile systems) and even in death their memory is tarnished by yours and others propaganda.All the evidences (radar location-sep areea,tweeter vkontakt messages,bragging of the seps,the previous downing of Ukr aircraft) point to one direction -Russians.You f-ed people,at least own to the horror you've created instead of digging your hole even deeper.You know it,I know it,all of the world knows it now,that's why one by one countries start to name the seps and Russia directly.No doubt that in the next few days more and more will accuse you of this crime.


Even Russian Advisor can't hit shit with that missile if they don't have radar


----------



## flamer84

JEskandari said:


> Even Russian Advisor can hit shit with that missile if they don't have radar




They did ok with Ukr planes up until now ,i doubt that a civilian air liner would be such a great undertaking.They have radars,rest assured,it was showed by the downing of Ukr planes before.They did it,they are guilty,all the water of the world can't wash them clean now anymore.


----------



## Hack-Hook

flamer84 said:


> They did ok with Ukr planes up until now ,i doubt that a civilian air liner would be such a great undertaking.They have radars,rest assured,it was showed by the downing of Ukr planes before.They did it,they are guilty,all the water of the world can't wash them clean now anymore.


they used man-pads and hit them at the altitude of less than 6 km not at more than 10km



Peaceful Civilian said:


> *Russia helping rebels to destroy evidence at MH17 crash site: Ukraine*
> 
> Kiev: Ukraine on Saturday accused Russia of helping separatist insurgents they say shot down Malaysian airliner MH17 try to destroy evidence at the crash site
> 
> "The Ukrainian government officially announces: terrorists with the support of Russia are trying to destroy proof of this international crime," Ukraine's government said in a statement.
> 
> *It adding that rebels had removed 38 bodies from the scene and were blocking Ukrainian investigators from accessing the site*.
> 
> Rebels trying to destroy crash evidence `with Russian support`: Kiev


oh I get it they must let the Animals remove the bodies , not removing the remain themselves and then Identifying them and hand them back to the families ?


----------



## ptldM3

flamer84 said:


> It would be more humane if you would just express regrets for what Russia did and be done with it.295 people were murdered by the separatists (most likely by the Russian advisors manning the missile systems) and even in death their memory is tarnished by yours and others propaganda.All the evidences (radar location-sep areea,tweeter vkontakt messages,bragging of the seps,the previous downing of Ukr aircraft) point to one direction -Russians.You f-ed people,at least own to the horror you've created instead of digging your hole even deeper.You know it,I know it,all of the world knows it now,that's why one by one countries start to name the seps and Russia directly.No doubt that in the next few days more and more will accuse you of this crime.




Of course it is tragic what happened but so far there is no solid evidence. Some supposed Ukrainian voice recording is equates to toilet paper. Anyone can fabricate a recording, if Ukraine was so great at intercepting rebel leaders conversations then those rebels would have been killed long ago and the military operation would not have been a disaster.

Moreover, there is a Spanish flight controller that tweeted that there was Ukrainians fighters in the area of the downed aircraft and that he was threatened by Ukrainian military. Is it proof? Maybe but it is ironic how you chose to ignore the Spanish flight recorder but picked up other claims that are no more credible. Also what about Ukraine's checkered past of shooting down a Russian airliner and then denying it? What about Ukrainian Buk missiles being photographed in the area of the downed aircraft?

Being selective are we?

Also Russian military advisors would never shoot down an airliners, military advisors are usally the best trained and they would know the difference between a transponder from a civilian aircraft and a military one. Ukraine on the other hand has a very poorly trained military and has in the past mistakenly shot down a Russian airliner.


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## kalu_miah

Putin, the scumbag terrorist, has killed 300 innocent people, "blown them out of the sky". ICJ should confiscate Russian assets and pay compensation to the victims families. It will not bring back loved ones, but at least it will ease some of the pain.


----------



## flamer84

ptldM3 said:


> Of course it is tragic what happened but so far there is no solid evidence. Some supposed Ukrainian voice recording is equates to toilet paper. Anyone can fabricate a recording, if Ukraine was so great at intercepting rebel leaders conversations then those rebels would have been killed long ago and the military operation would not have been a disaster.
> 
> Moreover, there is a Spanish flight controller that tweeted that there was Ukrainians fighters in the area of the downed aircraft and that he was threatened by Ukrainian military. Is it proof? Maybe but it is ironic how you chose to ignore the Spanish flight recorder but picked up other claims that are no more credible. Also what about Ukraine's checkered past of shooting down a Russian airliner and then denying it? What about Ukrainian Buk missiles being photographed in the area of the downed aircraft?
> 
> Being selective are we?




Spanish flight controller was debunked as a myth,nobody heard of him,including Spanish authorities who even released a statement saying there is no such person.


----------



## ptldM3

flamer84 said:


> Spanish flight controller was debunked as a myth,nobody heard of him,including Spanish authorities who even released a statement saying there is no such person.




I added more to my previous post. Like i said Russian military advisors would know the difference between a civilian airliner and a military one. Moreover the Ukrainian military had a Buk in the area of the downed aircraft and of course Ukraine has in the past shot down civilian airliners. 


So why are you ignoring these actual facts?



kalu_miah said:


> Putin, the scumbag terrorist, has killed 300 innocent people, "blown them out of the sky". ICJ should confiscate Russian assets and pay compensation to the victims families. It will not bring back loved ones, but at least it will ease some of the pain.




Did he? Amazing how you know this, you must have been there right?


----------



## flamer84

ptldM3 said:


> I added more to my previous post. Like i said Russian military advisors would know the difference between a civilian airliner and a military one. Moreover the Ukrainian military had a Buk in the area of the downed aircraft and of course Ukraine has in the past shot down civilian airliners.
> 
> 
> So why are you ignoring these actual facts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did he? Amazing how you know this, you must have been there right?




1.The seps admitted downing the plane,granted,they thought it was a Ukr plane.

2.NATO radars,AWACS pin pointed the location of the fired missile-Separatisty held territory.

3.Seps bragging of having Buk before.

4.Previous downing of Ukr planes.

This is an open and shut case.No doubt NATO will present their recordings in a short time,Russia hasn't said anything about their radars picking up the missile in Ukr territory,they know the guilty party as well.


----------



## ptldM3

flamer84 said:


> 1.The seps admitted downing the plane,granted,they thought it was a Ukr plane.






The rebels deny that they were the ones that targeted the aircraft. The amount of lies and misinformation that Ukraine has put out really hurts their credibility. Are tweets and recordings real? possible but it is very easy to fake, and Ukraine is know to fake.




flamer84 said:


> 2.NATO radars,AWACS pin pointed the location of the fired missile-Separatisty held territory.





The ukrainian military is fighting in rebel held territory, so this not proof of any kind.





flamer84 said:


> 3.Seps bragging of having Buk before.





Ukrainians actually have Buk.





flamer84 said:


> 4.Previous downing of Ukr planes.





Ukraine previously downing a Russian airliner.


You are also wrong, you follow to much western and Ukrainian news, Russia *is* calling for a full investigation.


----------



## flamer84

ptldM3 said:


> Russia is calling for a full investigation




Now you take us for retards.Even since yesterday armed separatists forbid access to investigators to the crash site.One word from Putin and investigators would be allowed.Russia doesn't want that because it knows that international investigators will only confirm the obvious truth:Russian backed separatists are guilty as charged.

Why don't the separatists allow investigators in ? From all countries,including Russia,a sort of international team.


----------



## ptldM3

flamer84 said:


> *Now you take us for retards.Even since yesterday armed separatists forbid access to investigators to the crash site*.One word from Putin and investigators would be allowed.Russia doesn't want that because it knows that international investigators will only confirm the obvious truth:Russian backed separatists are guilty as charged.
> 
> Why don't the separatists allow investigators in ? From all countries,including Russia,a sort of international team.





BBC News - MH17 crash: OSCE investigators reach east ...




> *International investigators have arrived at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, after rebels in eastern Ukraine allowed them access.*




This article was written almost a day ago, which means you are wrong.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Bobshouse

ptldM3 said:


> You are dismissed, some of the greatest defensive and offensive military strategies have come from the Soviet Union. Some of the largest military operations in history such as Kursk required required massive planning, concealment, reconnaissance, ect, The biggest strategy came in planing assaults, defenses, deciding how much reserves to use and when, deciding when to fall back, what devisions to use, ect, ect.
> 
> Like i said you are dismissed.



Thats seriously laughable

The battle where the soviets had overwhelming troop a machine numbers but still lost 3 men to very german 1?
The battle that the soviets were only able to wage due to their sheer numbers and the supply of equipment from the allies?
You mean the battle where they had lines of their own soldiers shooting their own front line troops that were retreating?

No solider you are dismissed, time to clean to latrine


----------



## flamer84

ptldM3 said:


> BBC News - MH17 crash: OSCE investigators reach east ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article was written almost a day ago, which means you are wrong.




No.They were denied access.The article is wrong.Corpses rott on that field while separatists loot the remains.


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## ptldM3

Bobshouse said:


> Thats seriously laughable
> 
> The battle where the soviets had overwhelming troop a machine numbers but still lost 3 men to very german 1?
> The battle that the soviets were only able to wage due to their sheer numbers and the supply of equipment from the allies?
> You mean the battle where they had lines of their own soldiers shooting their own front line troops that were retreating?
> 
> No solider you are dismissed, time to clean to latrine




Fool statement, the heavy Soviet losses was due the superior German tanks, German tanks were almost impossible to destroy from the front, they could also target Soviet tanks from a much greater distance. You are a fool to claim that the Russians have never in their history showed any tactical thinking. Kursk was one of the most brilliant and largest military campaigns in history. Soviets losing more men and equipment does not mean that they were any less planned, it just means the Germans has superior equipment and training.

Kursk involved one of the greatest logistics chains in the history of warfare. This alone required a lot of consideration and planing. The Soviets military was spread out and exhausted, it is nothing short of brilliant of how they managed to gather all of the military equipment and move it without the Germans spotting and destroying it. The battle of Kursk lasted for days, the Soviets prepared well, the Germans were falling victim to well prepared Soviet "kill zones" these zones would allow gaps in the battlefield, the Germans would see an opening, and drive through it, the Soviets exploited the weaker side armor of German tanks and destroyed them. The battle of Kursk is one of the most complex battles in history the Soviet military used deception, logistical planing, well prepared defenses, and complex infantry as well as armor maneuvers.



flamer84 said:


> No.They were denied access.The article is wrong.Corpses rott on that field while separatists loot the remains.




 Now BBC is lying? BBC is not the only news outlet reporting this. There is also *pictures of the investigators* at the crash site.

I have proof you have claims that i have debunked with proof.

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## Bobshouse

ptldM3 said:


> Fool statement, the heavy Soviet losses was due the superior German tanks, German tanks were almost impossible to destroy from the front, they could also target Soviet tanks from a much greater distance. You are a fool to claim that the Russians have never in their history showed any tactical thinking. Kursk was one of the most brilliant and largest military campaigns in history. Soviets losing more men and equipment does not mean that they were any less planned, it just means the Germans has superior equipment and training.
> 
> Kursk involved one of the greatest logistics chains in the history of warfare. This alone required a lot of consideration and planing. The Soviets military was spread out and exhausted, it is nothing short of brilliant of how they managed to gather all of the military equipment and move it without the Germans spotting and destroying it. The battle of Kursk lasted for days, the Soviets prepared well, the Germans were falling victim to well prepared Soviet "kill zones" these zones would allow gaps in the battlefield, the Germans would see an opening, and drive through it, the Soviets exploited the weaker side armor of German tanks and destroyed them. The battle of Kursk is one of the most complex battles in history the Soviet military used deception, logistical planing, well prepared defenses, and complex infantry as well as armor maneuvers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now BBC is lying? BBC is not the only news outlet reporting this. There is also *pictures of the investigators* at the crash site.
> 
> I have proof you have claims that i have debunked with proof.




Ok so now im just going to assume your a young uneducated guy. You have not mentioned any military tactics or innovative techniques?
What so the Soviets his their equipment well in the bushes? You mean the equipments the Allies gave to the Soviets? You mean to say you consider it good military tactics to have a supply chain within your own country? What about the German supply chain? their chain reached from Berlin to the doorsteps of Moscow.
Seriously, you have not mentioned one single tactic or innovative technique in the wall of text you have written. If you consider hiding in bushes and being able to suppy your troops within your own country great Soviet military thinking, then you need to ask better of your country


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## Schutz

Be nice to just cho


ptldM3 said:


> Fool statement, the heavy Soviet losses was due the superior German tanks, German tanks were almost impossible to destroy from the front, they could also target Soviet tanks from a much greater distance. You are a fool to claim that the Russians have never in their history showed any tactical thinking. Kursk was one of the most brilliant and largest military campaigns in history. Soviets losing more men and equipment does not mean that they were any less planned, it just means the Germans has superior equipment and training.
> 
> Kursk involved one of the greatest logistics chains in the history of warfare. This alone required a lot of consideration and planing. The Soviets military was spread out and exhausted, it is nothing short of brilliant of how they managed to gather all of the military equipment and move it without the Germans spotting and destroying it. The battle of Kursk lasted for days, the Soviets prepared well, the Germans were falling victim to well prepared Soviet "kill zones" these zones would allow gaps in the battlefield, the Germans would see an opening, and drive through it, the Soviets exploited the weaker side armor of German tanks and destroyed them. The battle of Kursk is one of the most complex battles in history the Soviet military used deception, logistical planing, well prepared defenses, and complex infantry as well as armor maneuvers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now BBC is lying? BBC is not the only news outlet reporting this. There is also *pictures of the investigators* at the crash site.
> 
> I have proof you have claims that i have debunked with proof.




Can you really not use google, there are loads of articles dating from several minutes ago to yesterday with press releases saying that access was blocked by gunmen who fired warning shots.

Google

As for Kursk your clearly not that well informed, the British codebreaker/double agent John Cairncross informed the Russians that a major offensive was to take place in the area, with a few months notice aswell and the Russians built up large defences/minefields/entrenched weapons around Kursk and brought in alot more weaponry aswell, they decided to go on the defensive when the Germans first attacked so that there armoured power would be destroyed which is decisive, it was a very easy battle for them to win really as all it required was a surplus of men which the Germans having no allies/allied armies in the area and so far from home with an already depleted army couldnt counter.


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## flamer84

Now seps claiming that black boxes "dissapeared".

If i had to guess..."NATO/Jew-Nazi stealth monkeys" took them.


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## Schutz

Thats preposterous, its obvious that Mossad agents infiltrated the area in the night and teleported back to Israel, I mean the "white house" where they are planning a false flag operation with the black box. 

Disclaimer
this quote can not be taken by news agencies (RT) and used as the truth..although I am sure that you will anyway.


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## Meengla

RIP for the dead people. How tragic! But please don't ruin Malaysian Airline for this--they are the VICTIM!

When I first heard of the downing of this plane over eastern Ukraine my immediate suspicion was that the rebels had done that: They have been shooting down the planes and been gloating about those. But I also thought this was a tragic mistake--a mistake made by a rag tag militia without enough training--and probably drunk quite often. I think my initial suspicion was correct. 

Someone must be made answerable for this! At the least Putin should make sure those who shot this down are held accountable and given severe punishment. 

Yes, Ukraine gains the most from this tragic incident but this kind of logic that those who gain the most are the culprit is often not valid. 

I don't know the ethnic dimensions of eastern Ukraine enough to comment upon whether the rebels should be supported or not. But they can't be allowed to be armed with sophisticated weapons to act as threat to the regional and world peace.


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## nvKyleBrown

I am convinced this was a mistaken identity shoot by the separatists. It would have been 1 million times more ironic if they had accidentally bagged an Aeroflot jet.


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## ptldM3

Bobshouse said:


> Ok so now im just going to assume your a young uneducated guy.



I'm going to assume you're a young uneducated and mentally challenged guy.





Bobshouse said:


> You have not mentioned any military tactics or innovative techniques?





Yes i have, i have mentioned plenty. The tank kill zones, logistics, defenses, ect. The Soviets launched two famous offensive pushes at Kurst that ended in German defeat in both operations and that would be operation Kutuzov and operation Polkovodets. You are completely ignorant of all things military and it shows. The battle of Kursk lasted for nearly two weeks, the battlefield was always moving, in fact it was many battle, the Soviets had well prepared lines of defenses that caused the German heavy loses, the Soviet also pushed their way through German lines.

So far i have backed every claim while you have blew hot air. 





Bobshouse said:


> What so the Soviets his their equipment well in the bushes? You mean the equipments the Allies gave to the Soviets?




Most of the Equipment the Soviets used was Soviet.





Bobshouse said:


> You mean to say you consider it good military tactics to have a supply chain within your own country?





Yes, the fact that you do not consider this a good tactic or planning strategy shows how ignorant you are in the subject. Without a good supply chain the Soviets would not have been able to concentrate as many men and machines at Kursk thus the Germans would have likely won the war. There is a reason why the Soviets massed at Kursk.






Bobshouse said:


> What about the German supply chain? their chain reached from Berlin to the doorsteps of Moscow.





What about them? We are talking about the Soviets and not the Germans. The reason for the German success was that they moved east in three armies, the Soviets were unprepared and faced three large armies.





Bobshouse said:


> Seriously, you have not mentioned one single tactic or innovative technique in the wall of text you have written.






Of course i have, you just demonstrated that you cant read.




Bobshouse said:


> If you consider hiding in bushes and being able to suppy your troops within your own country great Soviet military thinking, then you need to ask better of your country





Right because the nearly two week battle meant nothing? In your head the Soviets just got a mass of men and machines and simply pushed into the Germans when in reality there was offensive maneuvers, defensive lines, tactical retreats, ect.


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## ptldM3

Schutz said:


> Be nice to just cho
> 
> 
> 
> Can you really not use google, there are loads of articles dating from several minutes ago to yesterday with press releases saying that access was blocked by gunmen who fired warning shots.
> 
> Google




And your point is what? Another member made a claim that there was *no access* for investigators. That was proven to be false, with this thing called a source, from the BBC at that. Do you to want to argue that the BBC and many other news outlets are lying when they are saying that investigators have reached the crash site?





Schutz said:


> As for Kursk your clearly not that well informed, the British codebreaker/double agent John Cairncross informed the Russians that a major offensive was to take place in the area, with a few months notice aswell and the Russians built up large defences/minefields/entrenched weapons around Kursk and brought in alot more weaponry aswell, they decided to go on the defensive when the Germans first attacked so that there armoured power would be destroyed which is decisive, it was a very easy battle for them to win really as all it required was a surplus of men which the Germans having no allies/allied armies in the area and so far from home with an already depleted army couldnt counter.





The Soviet already knew most everything everything that British told them. The Soviets had their own code breakers and spies. The Soviets intercepted and broke German, Japanese, French, US, and Italian codes even prior to WW2.


Read:


Soviet codebreakers of WWII - Christos military and ...




> During this period the *Soviet codebreakers were able to exploit the codes of several foreign nations including Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, USA, Poland and many others.* The main target was Japan due to the military incidents in the Far East between the Soviet forces and the Kwantung Army.




And yes, the Soviets did have double agents, in that regard you are right. This just demonstrates how vast their intelligence program was. Intelligence and troop concentrations aside the battle of Kursk was one of the most complex battles in history, are you going to argue that the Soviets somehow defeated the Germans by simply having more men and machines like another member here is arguing?

The British information about Kursk was already known by the Soviets because of their spy network so in reality British code breakers had no effect on the battle of Kursk. Not to mention the Soviets had their own code breakers which has only recently been revealed.


Soviet codebreakers of WWII - Christos military and ...




> Apart from general warnings about impending German actions the Brits also sent more detailed reports. In April ’43 they transmitted a report sent by General von Weichs to Foreign Armies East that revealed the main points of the German plan for the battle of Kursk. In October of the same year they informed the Soviet authorities about the Abwehr’s Klatt network.
> 
> Although the British authorities were careful to hide the source of their reports the *Soviets already knew about Bletchley Park and the Enigma codebreaking through their spy network*. During WWII Kim Philby and Anthony Blunt passed along information on Abwehr ciphers while John Cairncross was able to infiltrate Bletchley Park.


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## Informant

Russia fucked up big time.


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## Bobshouse

Time is running out to collect those bodies

Its over 30 degrees over there

Animals are going to start feeding on the dead

Putin needs to pull his finger out NOW!!!!!


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## gau8av

f@ck what CNN and the western propaganda machine says, the militia should use this to draw the attention of the world on the atrocities being committed by the puppet regime

and it's begun to happen as well, saw something on CNN where the reporter was forced to talk about the situation there and the regime crimes against the people and was unable to paint it all as "russian terrorists"

it was telling that Obama warned of "misinformation" in his address as well, he's obviously scared the truth may come out

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## ptldM3

Informant said:


> Russia fucked up big time.



Really? Based on what? So far we know nothing, despite all of the theories and finger pointing nothing is clear.

Ukraine makes wild accusations on a daily basis, first they claim all victims in Odessa were Russians then they deny the Ukrainian military is killing civilians, they then murder, arrest and kidnap Russian journalist which they laughably deny, they deny the UN report of refugees, ect.

Ukraine is playing the victim yet there is photo and video evidence of the ukrainian military with the Buk system in the area of the accident; moreover, Ukraine has shot down a Russian airliner which they initially denied. If the rebels shot down the airliner the Ukrainians also have some questions to answer. Such as:

Why bring a Buk air defense system into the battle when the rebels have no aircraft and the chances of the Buk being captured or abandoned is high. Very suspicious and irresponsible.

Next why divert or allow civilian aircraft over a war zone that has had many aircraft shot down.

If i did not know any better i would say Ukraine wanted the rebels to down a civilian airliner to get more world support. Think about it. Ukraine has been losing dozens of pieces of heavy equipment to the rebels, so why would the Ukrainian military bring in a Buk? The rebels do not operate aircraft of any kind and the Buk is overkill in terms of range. Next why allow airliners to fly over airspace that has seen many aircraft shot down?

If the rebels shot down the airliner they should be punished, but so should the Ukrainians for the above reasons. The Ukrainians acted irresponsibly and did everything possible to make it easy for the rebels to shoot down the aircraft. The crash also happened on Ukrainian territory, ukraine needs to man up and do something instead playing the blame game.

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## Bearwithclaws

I offer my condolences to the people who lost their lives. One of the saddest incidents in our times. 

I hope the concerned parties in Ukraine crisis can come to an agreement. I have been viewing RT Today as well and its strange that while most of the media is showing the Gaza crisis and there has been absolutely no mention of the Ukrainian shelling in the border regions with Russia. So many innocents have died because of insane shelling by the Govt. 

I don't know who is to blame for the downing of the plane but I now we can only hope no more innocent people loose their lives.


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## F-22Raptor

All signs point to an active coverup. A Buk system was caught on video heading towards the Russian border, the seps are contaminating, looting, and desecrating the bodies at the crime scene, and they are restricting access to the site. It's shameful stuff.


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## Falcon29

Nothing new. False flag attack by Jews/Christians

So Jews/Christians in the US can talk about the urgent need for counter systems on all airliners. Already CNN guests involved in this industry addressing the urgent need.

Industries in the US will make billions under the pretext of security threats. Just like the TSA industry. Just a new chapter in the same cycle.

It's about money.


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## kalu_miah

ptldM3 said:


> Did he? Amazing how you know this, you must have been there right?



What is amazing is the stupidity and shamelessness of people trying to defend Putin's personal project of rebellion (read TERRORISM) in Eastern Ukraine and arming and training and perhaps sending personnel to run Buk missiles. The whole world knows about it by now. No point in trying to deny the obvious.

The separatist rebels thought this was another Ukrainian air-force plane and blown in out of the sky. They even posted in website claiming they downed a AN-xx but later when they figured out that it was a passenger plane, they promptly deleted those posts. Now there is a cover-up going on to destroy the evidence of their RUSSIAN TERROR CRIME.

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## STEVEN囧

RIP and damn those perpetrators.


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## F-22Raptor

kalu_miah said:


> What is amazing is the stupidity and shamelessness of people trying to defend Putin's personal project of rebellion (read TERRORISM) in Eastern Ukraine and arming and training and perhaps sending personnel to run Buk missiles. The whole world knows about it by now. No point in trying to deny the obvious.
> 
> The separatist rebels thought this was another Ukrainian air-force plane and blown in out of the sky. They even posted in website claiming they downed a AN-xx but later when they figured out that it was a passenger plane, they promptly deleted those posts. Now there is a cover-up going on to destroy the evidence of their RUSSIAN TERROR CRIME.



The actions of the rebels today has been outrageous. They are desecrating the bodies, and throwing them in the back of run down trucks like animals, and hauling them off to god knows where. It's absolutely absurd.

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## Reashot Xigwin

This pretty much sums up the MH-17 debacle is to Putin.

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## pakdefender

NATO/US cannot really do much beyond posturing , Russia is not some poor third world country


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## ptldM3

kalu_miah said:


> *What is amazing is the stupidity and shamelessness of people trying to defend Putin's personal project of rebellion* (read TERRORISM) in Eastern Ukraine and arming and training and perhaps sending personnel to run Buk missiles. The whole world knows about it by now. No point in trying to deny the obvious.
> 
> The separatist rebels thought this was another Ukrainian air-force plane and blown in out of the sky. They even posted in website claiming they downed a AN-xx but later when they figured out that it was a passenger plane, they promptly deleted those posts. Now there is a cover-up going on to destroy the evidence of their RUSSIAN TERROR CRIME.




What is amazing is people jumping to conclusions, moments after the shoot down Russia was being blamed. Funny how Ukraine has killed hundreds of civilians, and we hear nothing. Now an airliner is shot down and Ukraine, the US and the EU are in "shock" they weren't in shock in Odessa or Slavyansk.

Considering Ukraine has Buks in the same area not to mention their shoot down of a Russian airliner which they denied back in 2001 i find them to be suspicious. So far i will wait for an investigation with real evidence before i jump to conclusions.



F-22Raptor said:


> T*he actions of the rebels today has been outrageous. They are desecrating the bodies, *and throwing them in the back of run down trucks like animals, and hauling them off to god knows where. It's absolutely absurd.




You are outrageous, outrageously naive, the bodies were moved to a morgue to avoid decomposing of the bodies. What do you think happens to corpses after a crash? You think investigators examine aircraft debris with rotten corpses mangled among the wreckage?


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## Hack-Hook

Amazing , first some people come and claim the separatist are destroying the evidence because they are removing the bodies , now when explained to them why the bodies must be removed they come and claim the bodies are left in the field to rot and then they are coming and saying that they are looting the bodies . really funny it seems some peoples attention span is a little short so they even don't remember their own lies.


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## ptldM3

JEskandari said:


> Amazing , first some people come and claim the separatist are destroying the evidence because they are removing the bodies , now when explained to them why the bodies must be removed they come and claim the bodies are left in the field to rot and then they are coming and saying that they are looting the bodies . really funny it seems some peoples attention span is a little short so they even don't remember their own lies.




No matter what happens it is Russia and the "pro Russians" that take the blame. There are volunteers that are helping locate bodies far from the crash sight, i guess this is now considered "desecration". Ukrainian rescue workers are also helping with retrieving bodies, somehow when the Ukrainian rescue workers move bodies it's okay and no one objects but when rebels help move bodies, it's desecration. Moreover, The rebels have allowed investigators to comb through the wreckage, this is being reported by all major news networks but many still denying this fact and continue to claim that the rebels are blocking investigators from the crash site. Similarly, Putin has openly stated that the rebels should let investigators do their job but many news networks and people on this forum are claiming that Putin in "tampering" with the evidence. As for the bodies being looted, i have yet to see any proof of this, just more Ukrainian propaganda. The Ukrainian government are opportunists they are exploiting this tragedy for political gains.


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## kalu_miah

ptldM3 said:


> What is amazing is people jumping to conclusions, moments after the shoot down Russia was being blamed. Funny how Ukraine has killed hundreds of civilians, and we hear nothing. Now an airliner is shot down and Ukraine, the US and the EU are in "shock" they weren't in shock in Odessa or Slavyansk.
> 
> Considering Ukraine has Buks in the same area not to mention their shoot down of a Russian airliner which they denied back in 2001 i find them to be suspicious. So far i will wait for an investigation with real evidence before i jump to conclusions.
> 
> You are outrageous, outrageously naive, the bodies were moved to a morgue to avoid decomposing of the bodies. What do you think happens to corpses after a crash? You think investigators examine aircraft debris with rotten corpses mangled among the wreckage?



Let me guess, you are implying:
- Ukrainian govt. fired their Buk missile to bring down a Rebel air force plane
- Ukrainian govt. fired their Buk missile to bring down MH17 to make Putin and his pet rebels look bad

Any other theories?


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## notgoodenough

If you honestly believe porky makes any real decisions, youre dumber than this latest post of yours implies.



kalu_miah said:


> Let me guess, you are implying:
> - Ukrainian govt. fired their Buk missile to bring down a Rebel air force plane
> - Ukrainian govt. fired their Buk missile to bring down MH17 to make Putin and his pet rebels look bad
> 
> Any other theories?


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## Bobshouse

@ptldM3 
Love the way you had to google and carefully write out a planned response when you obviously dont know the history of your own country
You point out Russian military innovation and point to a battle where you lost 3 men to every enemy, then you mention a great supply chain that was supplied to you from the allies. 
You got no idea, ou cant even win a war within your own country. The last 20 years have proven than
What further proof? This stuff up by Putin has just cost you the battle for Eastern Ukraine. What do you think is going to happen next? You really think the real innovators of this planet will stand by.
A country you have rich history with that you now treat like a dog. 
This has cost Russia Eastern Ukraine. Mark my words on that.
Just another example of Russian innovation right?


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## ptldM3

kalu_miah said:


> Let me guess, you are implying:
> - Ukrainian govt. fired their Buk missile to bring down a Rebel air force plane
> - Ukrainian govt. fired their Buk missile to bring down MH17 to make Putin and his pet rebels look bad
> 
> Any other theories?




Before trying to act sarcastic do some research. Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner in 2001 which they initially denied. In the region of the downed aircraft the Ukrainian military is operating Buk batteries. Do i think that Ukraine could have purposefully down the aircraft to blame Russia? Absolutely considering Ukraine is slaughtering civilians on a daily basis with heavy artillery and then denying it. Not only that, Ukraine has let the people that committed the Odessa massacre walk free while they arrested the victims. This should tell you about the government in Ukraine and their hatred for Russian speakers in the east. All of this is ignored by western governments, Ukraine has the green light to do anything, it doesn't matter if it's killing hundreds of civilians, killing and abducting Russian journalists, or Ukrainian politicians and generals inciting hate crime by calling for putting Russian speakers in concentration camps.

On the other hand, Ukraine could have targeted not a rebel aircraft but one they thought was Russian. 

These are all possible scenarios but i am not jumping to any conclusions. One thing i do know is that at least the Ukrainians are reporting that the aircraft was mistaken for a military target, while the Ukrainian military purposefully targets civilian areas each day resulting in dozens of deaths each week.


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## ptldM3

Bobshouse said:


> @ptldM3
> *Love the way you had to google and carefully write out a planned response* when you obviously dont know the history of your own country




You know the difference between you and i? I do write out carefully written responses while you make empty claims.





Bobshouse said:


> You point out Russian military innovation and point to a battle where you lost 3 men to every enemy,





Yes and i provide facts, any you? What counter arguments have you made? The Soviet Union is regarded as having some of the best generals of all time such as Konstantin Rokossovsky and Georgy Zhukov. Kursk was long battle, it is one of the largest and most complex battles in history, Soviet forces would have been whipped out if they would have simply charged head on in to the Germans as you are foolishly suggesting. The Soviets battle plan was far too complicated for me to explain in one post, there are entire books on the battle. The Soviets had well positioned defensive belts as well as *dozens of divisions* that were tasked with everything from defusing mines, to destroying tanks, to providing recon. Look at a map at the battle of Kursk, Soviet forces were constantly moving trying to outflank the Germans and trying to avoid being outflanked themselves. They lured Germans tanks into open channels making the Germans believe that they could maneuver into a pincher but the Germans fell into an ambush trap by exposing their weaker side armor to well fortified tank kill zones that were located to either side of these open channels. 

Also innovative is that the Soviets prepared multiple defensive belts that weakened the German offensive if the Germans ever got too far the Soviets had reserve divisions mostly comprising of heavy armor that that eventually finished off the depleted German advanced.









Bobshouse said:


> then you mention a great supply chain that was supplied to you from the allies.




Again most of the supplies in the battle of Kursk were of Soviet origin; moreover, the allies did not help move any supplies to the battle of Kursk. Someone as dishonest as you would try to convince the readers otherwise.







Bobshouse said:


> You got no idea, ou cant even win a war within your own country.




 If anyone has no idea it is you. If anyone is clueless, it's you. 90% of the German military was destroyed by the Soviets. I also don't even need to mention the dozens other wars the Russians have fought in an won.




Bobshouse said:


> The last 20 years have proven than





In the past 20 years the Russian military faced two insurgent wars in Chechnya, the first war did not end well because of poor planing and a disorganized military after the Soviet collapse. The second Chechen campaign was a success and in 2008 the Russian military faced the Georgians which took all but 5 days to take over Georgia.





Bobshouse said:


> What further proof? This stuff up by Putin has just cost you the battle for Eastern Ukraine. What do you think is going to happen next? You really think the real innovators of this planet will stand by.




You seem incoherent, are you drunk?






Bobshouse said:


> A country you have rich history with that you now treat like a dog.
> This has cost Russia Eastern Ukraine. *Mark my words* on that.
> Just another example of Russian innovation right?




No


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## RayOfLight

Hashshāshīn said:


> Because passports are usually inside suitcases, surrounded by clothes


 
Normally people carry passport in hand baggage.. no?


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## Hashshāshīn

RayOfLight said:


> Normally people carry passport in hand baggage.. no?


Briefcases are pretty strong these days.


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## Devil Soul

*United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath*
We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors. 

Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included training on air defense systems. 

Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft. 

At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11. 

Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems. 

Social media postings on Thursday show an SA-11 system traveling through the separatist-controlled towns of Torez and Snizhne, near the crash site and assessed location of the SAM launch. From this location, the SA-11 has the range and altitude capability to have shot down flight MH17. 

Ukraine also operates SA-11 systems, but we are confident no Ukrainian air defense systems were within range of the crash. Ukrainian forces have also not fired a single surface-to-air missile during the conflict, despite often complaining about violations of their airspace by Russian military aircraft. 

Shortly after the crash, separatists – including the self-proclaimed “Defense Minister” of the Donetsk People’s Republic Igor Strelkov – claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane on social media. 

In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a separatist faction downed the aircraft. After it became evident that the plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) SAM system. 

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists. 

Video posted on social media yesterday show an SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon are back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch. 

Events on the ground at the crash site clearly demonstrate that separatists are in full control of the area. 

###


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## JSCh

A sensitive times for this news to appear, not assuming anything....

Daily: Finnish Customs intercepted Ukraine-bound missile components | Yle Uutiset | yle.fi

*Daily: Finnish Customs intercepted Ukraine-bound missile components*
*Finnish Customs have intercepted a large consignment of arms bound for Ukraine, reports the daily Helsingin Sanomat. Finnish Defence Forces are said to be looking into the case.*





*The shipment of missile components was bound for the far-eastern corner of Ukraine, according to customs officials. *Image: Yle
The daily Helsingin Sanomat reported Thursday that an air freight consignment destined for Ukraine was found to contain numerous parts of a missile guidance system. The find was discovered in June as part of routine customs surveillance at the Helsinki-Vantaa airport.

Officials discovered however, that the shipment did not have the required clearance for transit through Finland to the far eastern part of Ukraine.

Because of the delicacy of the Ukrainian crisis the case had initially only been reported to very high-ranking members of government.

Defence Force officials are now examining the items to determine what parts of the missile system they represent.

Officers from Customs' anti-crime unit are awaiting further information about the parts from defence experts before pressing ahead with a criminal investigation into unlawful exports. They are also trying to determine the intended recipients of the shipment.


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## Götterdämmerung

Robert Parry is a well-known investigative journalist and an expert of intelligence services. He is best known for his covering of the Iran-Contra Affair.



> "Regarding the shoot-down of the Malaysian jetliner
> on Thursday, I’m told that some CIA analysts cite
> U.S. satellite reconnaissance photos suggesting that
> the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Flight
> 17 was fired by Ukrainian troops from a government
> battery, not by ethnic Russian rebels who have been
> resisting the regime in Kiev since elected President
> Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown on Feb. 22.
> 
> According to a source briefed on the tentative findings,
> the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing
> Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since
> what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the
> site. But the source added that the information was still
> incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility
> of rebel responsibility."



More @
Airline Horror Spurs New Rush to Judgment | Consortiumnews

About Robert Parry: Robert Parry (journalist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## IR1907

People wondering why passports survived and humans didnt, do the following :

1.Go to the nearest top building in your area, climb to the roof 
2.First throw your passport from the building, go down and pick up to see the state of the passport (most likely the passport is fully intact)
3.Now climb back to the roof again and throw yourself this time and see for yourself what happens

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Schutz

It shows that conspiracy nuts will literally jump at every possible opportunity, last time I checked a passport/clothing arent human flesh.


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## Al Bhatti

UAE dispatches team to identify MH17 victims


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## Hypersonicmissiles

IR1907 said:


> People wondering why passports survived and humans didnt, do the following :
> 
> 1.Go to the nearest top building in your area, climb to the roof
> 2.First throw your passport from the building, go down and pick up to see the state of the passport (most likely the passport is fully intact)
> 3.Now climb back to the roof again and throw yourself this time and see for yourself what happens



LOL you are so dumb. The plane blew up you clown. Passports don't survive when something blows up.


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## IR1907

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> LOL you are so dumb. The plane blew up you clown. Passports don't survive when something blows up.


No, bozo. You fail to understand the most simple issue here, the explosion that blew up the airplane didnt form into dozens of many other little explosions in the cabin that specifically targeted the passengers passports, maybe in your retarded brains this is possible but there is no certain type of weapon that ''goes for'' the passports. LOL

No doubt a dozens of passport that were within the vicinity of the explosion or fires that broke out got destroyed but there is a good amount of passports that survived it, as it is evident on the pictures of the crash. And bozo, when the passport survives the fire/explosion it wont get ''destroyed'' if it falls from 30.000 ft high.

Before opening your stinking mouth and calling others as ''clowns'' or ''dumb'' use your braincells. (if you have any, bozo)


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## Hack-Hook

IR1907 said:


> No, bozo. You fail to understand the most simple issue here, the explosion that blew up the airplane didnt form into dozens of many other little explosions in the cabin that specifically targeted the passengers passports, maybe in your retarded brains this is possible but there is no certain type of weapon that ''goes for'' the passports. LOL
> 
> No doubt a dozens of passport that were within the vicinity of the explosion or fires that broke out got destroyed but there is a good amount of passports that survived it, as it is evident on the pictures of the crash. And bozo, when the passport survives the fire/explosion it wont get ''destroyed'' if it falls from 30.000 ft high.
> 
> Before opening your stinking mouth and calling others as ''clowns'' or ''dumb'' use your braincells. (if you have any, bozo)


well when it come to passport I have always wondered if they scattered at the height of 10km , honestly why they did not fall in Helsinki ,those passports are very light and the air current at those altitudes are a little strong . It would not be strange if you throw a passport at the height of 40km in it land several hundred km away


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## IR1907

JEskandari said:


> well when it come to passport I have always wondered if they scattered at the height of 10km , honestly why they did not fall in Helsinki ,those passports are very light and the air current at those altitudes are a little strong . It would not be strange if you throw a passport at the height of 40km in it land several hundred km away



I dont think it started to immediately scatter at the height of 10KM. Also, most of the passports are put in a safe place in a bag,suitcase. It most likely scattered when the bags,suitcases hit the ground.


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