# Pakistan conducted successful flight test of Air Launched Cruise Missile “Ra’ad-II”.



## Amavous

According to ARY news, Pakistan successfully tested RAAD II cruise missile today.

Updates incoming, Will update soon


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229703300620210177

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## Haris Ali2140

Amavous said:


> According to ARY news, Pakistan successfully tested RAAD II cruise missile today.
> 
> Updates incoming, Will update soon


Which platform???


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## Pakistani Fighter

Range is being stated as 600km

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## Zarvan

RAAD II means 550 KM


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## Pakistani Fighter

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Which platform???


Mirage



Zarvan said:


> RAAD II means 550 KM


600km coming in News

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## hussain0216

How is RAAD 2 different to RAAD 1?

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229703043207266305

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## Pakistani Fighter

No need for buying ALCM from foreign countries. Upgrade what u have

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## Zarvan

hussain0216 said:


> How is RAAD 2 different to RAAD 1?


RAAD 1 has 350 KM Range and RAAD II has 600 KM range

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## HRK



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## hussain0216

Zarvan said:


> RAAD 1 has 350 KM Range and RAAD II has 600 KM range



Last question, do we know if it can be carried by the JF17 now?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229703043207266305


What does strategic standoff capability means in Sea. Anti Ship? @Signalian @HRK @Dazzler @Basel @Gryphon

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## HRK



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## Mentee

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Which platform???


They launched it by a Mirage but then it's Raad ll  congrats to our nerds for making us achieve a terrific indeginous and credible stand off weaponry

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## bananarepublic

Ok so now we have a ALCM with 600km range that can target both land and sea targets .
So now our navy has harba,zarb and now raad.

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## Mentee

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What does strategic standoff capability means in Sea. Anti Ship? @Signalian @HRK @Dazzler @Basel @Gryphon



It allows us to hash tag our dearest mates by remaining anonymous

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## Pakistani Fighter

@seven0seven do you think it can be used to Target S400?

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## Mentee

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Brother mine,
> 
> The design looks a bit different from Ra'ad I... or am I seeing things that are not there?
> 
> Mangus



I think the Mirage too could launch it hence why they used it as a testing delivery platform

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## War Thunder

hussain0216 said:


> Last question, do we know if it can be carried by the JF17 now?



why would they make a missile that cannot be carried by half their fleet?

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## Haris Ali2140

Not complaining but we need to employ them on modern platforms especially on the thunders.

And how does it fare against SOM series???
@seven0seven @Signalian @Quwa @Tank131 @Dazzler @Tipu7 @Rashid Mahmood


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## War Thunder

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What does strategic standoff capability means in Sea. Anti Ship? @Signalian @HRK @Dazzler @Basel @Gryphon




To target enemies targets on the sea, and on land from the sea.


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## hussain0216

War Thunder said:


> why would they make a missile that cannot be carried by half their fleet?



Because my understanding was that the RAAD 1 couldn't be carried by the thunder due to low clearance of the plane


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## War Thunder

Haris Ali2140 said:


> And how does it fare against SOM series???
> @seven0seven @Signalian @Quwa @Tank131 @Dazzler @Tipu7 @Rashid Mahmood




Why does it need to "fare" against SOM series?
Can the two target each other lol?



hussain0216 said:


> Because my understanding was that the RAAD 1 couldn't be carried by the thunder due to low clearance of the plane



Can be on the belly mate.


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## Pakistani Fighter

War Thunder said:


> To target enemies targets on the sea, and on land from the sea.


On the sea you mean Mobile Surface fleet?


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## Sulman Badshah

Pakistan conducted successful flight test of Air Launched Cruise Missile “Ra’ad-II”. Ra’ad-II, with a range of 600 Km, which significantly enhances air delivered strategic standoff capability on land and at sea. The weapon system is equipped with state of the art guidance and navigation systems ensuring engagement of targets with high precision. The successful flight test was witnessed by Lieutenant General Nadeem Zaki Manj, Director General Strategic Plans Division, Dr. Nabeel Hayat Malik, Chairman NESCOM, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces and Strategic Organizations. Director General Strategic Plans Division appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists and engineers who contributed whole-heartedly to develop the weapon system and making this launch a success. He also termed it “a major step towards complementing Pakistan’s deterrence capability”. The President, Prime Minister of Pakistan, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee and Services Chiefs have congratulated the Scientists and Engineers on the successful conduct of missile test.

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## Haris Ali2140

War Thunder said:


> Why does it need to "fare" against SOM series?
> Can the two target each other lol?


There are other ways of competing too. Like comparing capabilities.


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## Rashid Mahmood

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What does strategic standoff capability means in Sea. Anti Ship? @Signalian @HRK @Dazzler @Basel @Gryphon




What else will you fire it on at sea? 
+ another warhead.

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## Zephyrus

That looks like a mini babur

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229706616985079810

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## Rashid Mahmood

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Not complaining but we need to employ them on modern platforms especially on the thunders.
> 
> And how does it fare against SOM series???
> @seven0seven @Signalian @Quwa @Tank131 @Dazzler @Tipu7 @Rashid Mahmood



So you know better than the operators.

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## Sulman Badshah

@waz Kindly merge this thread (as it is duplicate)


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## War Thunder

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> On the sea you mean Mobile Surface fleet?




Depends on the weapon being used.
A standard Cruise Missile won't follow a fast moving boat but can easily adjust to the movement of larger ships/AC's.
An anti ship missile will do better at dealing with faster boats. The very reason you have a Raad, Harba, and Zarb as different variants with different seakers.

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


>



Notice the new X-tail configuration, meaning better clearance for JFT

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## HRK

bananarepublic said:


> So now our navy has harba,zarb and now raad.


So now our option for Naval Strike are 

- C-602 
- C-802 
- CM-400AKG
- Babur-II
- SLCM Babur-III 
- Zarb Missile
- Harba Missile
- RA'AD-II 
- Harpoon Missiles 
- Exocet Missile

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## Haris Ali2140

Rashid Mahmood said:


> So you know better than the operators.


No but wont integrating them on Thunders increase the capabilities of PAF???


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## HRK

*Pakistan conducted successful flight test of Air Launched Cruise Missile “Ra’ad-II”. *link



*Rawalpindi - February 18, 2020*
*No PR-27/2020-ISPR*
Pakistan conducted successful flight test of Air Launched Cruise Missile “Ra’ad-II”. Ra’ad-II, with a range of 600 Km, which significantly enhances air delivered strategic standoff capability on land and at sea. The weapon system is equipped with state of the art guidance and navigation systems ensuring engagement of targets with high precision.
The successful flight test was witnessed by Lieutenant General Nadeem Zaki Manj, Director General Strategic Plans Division, Dr. Nabeel Hayat Malik, Chairman NESCOM, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces and Strategic Organizations.
Director General Strategic Plans Division appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists and engineers who contributed whole-heartedly to develop the weapon system and making this launch a success. He also termed it “a major step towards complementing Pakistan’s deterrence capability”. The President, Prime Minister of Pakistan, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee and Services Chiefs have congratulated the Scientists and Engineers on the successful conduct of missile test.

-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

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## Zephyrus

hussain0216 said:


> How is RAAD 2 different to RAAD 1?


Raad 2 looks like a miniaturized babur

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## HRK

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Brother mine,
> 
> The design looks a bit different from Ra'ad I... or am I seeing things that are not there?
> 
> Mangus


yaap I also felt some difference in tail section but waiting for clear pics .....

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## Caprxl

Haris Ali2140 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229706616985079810



_*" Integration on JF-17 is in Progress "*_
Well well well . . If this news is coreect

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## Rashid Mahmood

Haris Ali2140 said:


> No but wont integrating them on Thunders increase the capabilities of PAF???



Every aircraft has its own role and use.

PAF will do when it is cleared for it.

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## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> Babur-II


I have a question. Would Babur Cruise Missile will be used as the same role as Zarb which is Anti ship Missile launched from Coast?


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## Zephyrus

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I have a question. Would Babur Cruise Missile will be used as the same role as Zarb which is Anti ship Missile launched from Coast?


Zarb is anti ahip
Babur is LACM

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## Bilal.

Old T shaped tail vs new X-tail. Better compact design may make it easier to integrate on JFT.

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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> Notice the new X-tail configuration, meaning better clearance for JFT


I am also suspecting, but this pic is not clear enough .... so not commenting on this right now ....

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## Pakistani Fighter

Zephyrus said:


> Zarb is anti ahip
> Babur is LACM


Babur 2 LACM is with Navy. So it would mean that LACM is being used for Anti ship?


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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> I am also suspecting this pic is not clear enough .... so not commenting on this right now ....



look at the white line running the side of the body.

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## Zephyrus

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Babur 2 LACM is with Navy. So it would mean that LACM is being used for Anti ship?


No, harbah is Anti ship Variant of babur, babur is strictly land attack

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## The Eagle

Congratulations Pakistan. 

Validation and success, all the way.

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## HRK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I have a question. Would Babur Cruise Missile will be used as the same role as Zarb which is Anti ship Missile launched from Coast?


may be or may not be ... can't comment yet ....


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## Yaseen1

nice effort but due to rise in mirage crashes we should enable jf17 to carry such missiles as mirages are becoming older and also next version should be supersonic or hypersonic cruise missile

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Ma Sha ALLAH

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## Pakistani Fighter

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Well, we need to establish *No Sail Zone *in *Our Sea!*
> 
> With *Air Delivery Services* this can effectively be *1000+Km* from Our Shores!
> 
> However, I would like to see a *Supersonic Cruise Missile* test sooner than later. PNS was supposed to be working on it.. we need that in the mix as well!


We need some Destroyers with Long Range SAMs too. No Sail Zone+No Fly Zone for the Enemy


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## Rafi

Its range is impressive, potential "range" is even more impressive Nuff said.

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## The Eagle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Babur 2 LACM is with Navy. So it would mean that LACM is being used for Anti ship?



You will never find any details of use or role of any strategic weapon as such. When, how, where will be deployed is the key of tactics. Ra'ad II details will not be shared but timing as such is good enough to run my imagination towards more offensive & strategic nature weapon being successfully tested. The difference and in appearance; will validate the purpose of this launch & testing for the eyes only.

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## The Accountant

I feel Mirage serves as test bed platform for Pakistan thats why most of the new weapon system get testing on mirage

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## Dil_Pakistan

HRK said:


> So now our option for Naval Strike are
> 
> - C-602
> - C-802
> - CM-400AKG
> - Babur-II
> - SLCM Babur-III
> - Zarb Missile
> - Harba Missile
> - RA'AD-II
> - Harpoon Missiles
> - Exocet Missile


If anybody doesn't mind, would someone kindly simplify the information about these system i.e. type, launch platform options, target type option and range. A graphic or table of some sort would do. or kindly refer me to some link where all these information is displayed in a compact form.
On topic, congratulations to the team and all people involved. Pakistan Zindabad

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## JohnWick

I think the quality of video is lowered on 
purpose....
Looks like tomahawk to me.....

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## Zephyrus

Dil_Pakistan said:


> If anybody doesn't mind, would someone kindly simplify the information about these system i.e. type, launch platform options, target type option and range. A graphic or table of some sort would do. or kindly refer me to some link where all these information is displayed in a compact form.
> On topic, congratulations to the team and all people involved. Pakistan Zindabad


Nice try R&AW

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## 313ghazi

Alhamdulillah. Day by day, step by step we strengthen. It is a far throw to the dark days of the late 90's, when Migs were breaking the sound barrier over our capital.

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## JohnWick

Dil_Pakistan said:


> If anybody doesn't mind, would someone kindly simplify the information about these system i.e. type, launch platform options, target type option and range. A graphic or table of some sort would do. or kindly refer me to some link where all these information is displayed in a compact form.
> On topic, congratulations to the team and all people involved. Pakistan Zindabad


Spy....do you work for us....ISI?


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## Dil_Pakistan

Zephyrus said:


> Nice try R&AW


LOL no..
i am asking for basic information, which everyone is discussing also. its a headache to search individually on wikipedia or so.


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## alee92nawaz

HRK said:


> View attachment 606942
> View attachment 606943
> View attachment 606944


Focus on the " can strike targets at seas "... Yoooooolooo

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## maverick1977

time for supersonic Raad 3

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## Sunny4pak

*Ra'ad Two Cruise Missile Test | Facts about Raad Missile System*

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## HRK

Dil_Pakistan said:


> If anybody doesn't mind, would someone kindly simplify the information about these system i.e. type, launch platform options, target type option and range. A graphic or table of some sort would do. or kindly refer me to some link where all these information is displayed in a compact form.
> On topic, congratulations to the team and all people involved. Pakistan Zindabad


that will take some extra effort and I am currently feeling lazy so If interested remind me about this in coming Sunday will post some detail about these systems ....


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## Fox_hound

What is its maximum speed?


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## Zephyrus

Dil_Pakistan said:


> LOL no..
> i am asking for basic information, which everyone is discussing also. its a headache to search individually on wikipedia or so.


Joke tha Bhai, if you can wait for sometime i might design and upload it

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## Dil_Pakistan

HRK said:


> that will take some extra effort and I am currently feeling lazy so If interested remind me about this in coming Sunday will post some detail about these systems ....


ok thank you 
i think it would be helpful especially for all general members of the forum. Also prevents some of the basic redundant questioning as to what the platform is etc every time a news of some of these missile test news comes up..
and for all the members who got serious, or maybe were just pulling my leg ..no i don't want any confidential type info, just basic and i am sure people here on this forum are responsible to not share anything confidential as such.

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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> Notice the new X-tail configuration, meaning better clearance for JFT





Bilal. said:


> Old T shaped tail vs new X-tail. Better compact design may make it easier to integrate on JFT.
> 
> View attachment 606945
> 
> 
> View attachment 606946


@JamD ..... 

soon we will witness RAAD with JF-17 ....

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## Dil_Pakistan

Zephyrus said:


> Joke tha Bhai, *if you can wait for sometime i might design and upload it*



you people scared me for a second . Hum aam awam ko aise mat daraye karein bhai.. But i was quiet sure that you were pulling my leg. @bold That would be awesome...You can take your time.


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## The Eagle

HRK said:


> soon we will witness RAAD with JF-17 .



Exactly. February is turning into a Surprise Month.

The unsung heroes of Air Weapon Complex.

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## Sulemanms202

weapons hitting the desiganted target shot was not clear and no weapon was visible just an explosion. Further, i cant seem to differentiate between these pictures and pictures of previous tests carried out with mirage III

so i dont see any encouraging signs, just yet!


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## The Eagle

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @The Eagle @HRK
> 
> Brothers mine,
> 
> *One of many things* *undeclared *for now is the *Supersonic Cruise Missile!*
> 
> I do hope we come out and demonstrate... it shall be far bigger *PsyOp Effect* ..trust you me!
> 
> Anyways, *OurBoys n OurGirls* deserve all the respect ...they make us proud. Always!
> 
> Mangus
> 
> 
> @SIPRA Pajee, now shall come those who will catch fish from pixx... Always ... *kiray kaddae nae!*



Sir, that's into play and will be revealed as done. There is no chance of scrapping at all but one thing that I can say is, many will be surprised to see it happening far differently than one can expect.

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## Zarvan

Rafi said:


> Its range is impressive, potential "range" is even more impressive Nuff said.


Pakistan should work on and develop a conventional warhead whose destructive powers are at least 20 times more than our current conventional warheads

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## Amaa'n

HRK said:


> that will take some extra effort and I am currently feeling lazy so If interested remind me about this in coming Sunday will post some detail about these systems ....


A good idea --- I will work on it and share the draft with you....if you have some suggestions & I will make amendments to it....we will share it on FB / forum & tweeter

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## The Eagle

Check the difference by comparing with Ra'ad-I. "Air to Sea" capability is in-fact telling a lot.

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## Bilal.

The Eagle said:


> View attachment 606950
> 
> 
> View attachment 606951
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 606952
> 
> 
> View attachment 606953
> 
> 
> Check the difference by comparing with Ra'ad-I. "Air to Sea" capability is in-fact telling a lot.



Radar seeker? Radome/Seeker head?

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## The Eagle

Bilal. said:


> Radar seeker? Radome/Seeker head?



The weapon system is equipped with state of the art guidance and navigation systems ensuring engagement of targets with high precision.

That's all for now. However, I see that enhancing deterrence capability further.

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## Bilal.

The Eagle said:


> The weapon system is equipped with state of the art guidance and navigation systems ensuring engagement of targets with high precision.
> 
> That's all for now. However, I see that enhancing deterrence capability further.



The nose does seem as if having a radome.

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## CriticalThought

NOTE: This is pure speculation based on my own interpretation of visual cues in the released video and theorization.

The missile seems to be in the 850 kg mass range, travelling at approx. 350 knots at an average altitutde of 10000 ft. Previous estimates of mass were in the 1100 kg range, which means the new version has been able to shed around 250 kg. This could theoretically become possible through a combination of lighter materials, advanced power supply, and improved internal data bus architecture amongst other improvements.

The detonation seems delayed, which shows possible ground penetration capabilities. Given the strategic nature of the missile, this means nuclear delivery to hardened, underground targets.

An improved navigation could hint at satellite navigation, while improved guidance could come due to a combination of better control algorithms that utilize better knowledge of the missile's aerodynamic capabilities, and possibly even mid-course corrections. This would mean that even if the missile is intercepted relatively intacdt, the enemy would not be able to determine the target. This last point could be a useful feature for next iterations, even if the current version doesn't support it.

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## The Eagle

Bilal. said:


> The nose does seem as if having a radome.



The seeker along with advance navigation system... capable enough to hit sea target... means mid course correction and so not just for stationary targets only..... and the size seems to be different along with reshape/alteration of fins.

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## NA71

HRK said:


> @JamD .....
> 
> soon we will witness RAAD with JF-17 ....



very soon IA.

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## Bilal.

The Eagle said:


> The seeker along with advance navigation system... capable enough to hit sea target... means mid course correction and so not just for stationary targets only..... and the size seems to be different along with reshape/alteration of fins.



Fin change already noticed.

We need to have multiple terminal guidance options/versions for different mission requirement and price points:

- Pure GPS/INS
- GPS/INS + DSMAC
- GPS/INS + IIR (with ATR)
- GPS/INS + Radar
- GPS/INS + Radar + IIR (as developed recently for SOM)
- GPS/INS + Anti-Radiation

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## Pakistani Fighter

CriticalThought said:


> NOTE: This is pure speculation based on my own interpretation of visual cues in the released video and theorization.
> 
> The missile seems to be in the 850 kg mass range, travelling at approx. 350 knots at an average altitutde of 10000 ft. Previous estimates of mass were in the 1100 kg range, which means the new version has been able to shed around 250 kg. This could theoretically become possible through a combination of lighter materials, advanced power supply, and improved internal data bus architecture amongst other improvements.
> 
> The detonation seems delayed, which shows possible ground penetration capabilities. Given the strategic nature of the missile, this means nuclear delivery to hardened, underground targets.
> 
> An improved navigation could hint at satellite navigation, while improved guidance could come due to a combination of better control algorithms that utilize better knowledge of the missile's aerodynamic capabilities, and possibly even mid-course corrections. This would mean that even if the missile is intercepted relatively intacdt, the enemy would not be able to determine the target. This last point could be a useful feature for next iterations, even if the current version doesn't support it.


Can Loss of weight be attributed to Lesser Warhead?


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## StormBreaker

HRK said:


> yaap I also felt some difference in tail section but waiting for clear pics .....





Caprxl said:


> _*" Integration on JF-17 is in Progress "*_
> Well well well . . If this news is coreect





Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Well, we need to establish *No Sail Zone *in *Our Sea!*
> 
> With *Air Delivery Services* this can effectively be *1000+Km* from Our Shores!
> 
> However, I would like to see a *Supersonic Cruise Missile* test sooner than later. PNS was supposed to be working on it.. we need that in the mix as well!





The Eagle said:


> Congratulations Pakistan.
> 
> Validation and success, all the way.



@aliyusuf Notice the timing guys, RAAD 2 was first displayed in 2017 March Parade but test video is released today. Block 3 first prototype is already flying, 2nd in May inshaAllah. We might see the next RAAD II appearance directly on a Block 3 test flight or sequential flights by this year. Just a guess

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## Cookie Monster

Congrats...now Pak has an equivalent to storm shadow, which I think India had ordered with its Rafales.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Cookie Monster said:


> Congrats...now Pak has an equivalent to storm shadow, which I think India had ordered with its Rafales.


Yes they had ordered. I hope we develop Supersonic/Hypersonic ALCM against Indian ALCM Brahmos

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## DANGER-ZONE

Two News Things That I Have Noticed.

1. X Cross tail.
2. Fixed Engine Inlet / intake.
Before it use to came out after launch like Babur.

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## SABRE

bananarepublic said:


> Ok so now we have a ALCM with 600km range that can target both land and sea targets .
> So now our navy has harba,zarb and now raad.



Technically, the air force has both the Ra'ad and Ra'ad-II.

The Navy has Babur-III.

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## graphican

Alhamdolillah! Congratulations Paksitan! 

Timing of the test is interesting. 16 Billion-dollar S-400 news came today and 600KM deep striking capability revealed by PAF.

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## Pakistani Fighter

graphican said:


> Alhamdolillah! Congratulations Paksitan!
> 
> Timing of the test is interesting. 16 Billion-dollar S-400 news came today and 600KM deep striking capability revealed by PAF.


You will see Ababeel test once S400 lands in India

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## baqai

Allah o Akbar  MashaAllah .... 600 bola hai tu i guess thora tu "onch neech" hu ga zaroor

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## Pied Piper

Alhamdulillah....excellent news....the range of Raad 2 has increased considerably.

A saturation of Raad ALCM fired on enemy positions, at least 600km away from the target - Will considerably erode any advantage that the Indian Armed forces currently posses. It can potentially nullify the Russian S400 missiles that India has ordered. A Saturation strike on key locations of S400 or other strategic missiles can render Indian defences obsolete.

Once key targets of the supporting items for S400 (radars or different supporting vehicles) have been hit...then gaps will emerge in its defence ability. 1 or 2 key items taken will considerably reduce the effectiveness of S400 systems - Albeit cheapley taken out.

Pakistan's current economic position and the 5th generation warfare implemented against it...requires astute reflection and best mechanisms to deny or erode enemy capabilities.

The 50 years old Mirages (with the excellent service by PAC) has made this aircraft still worthy for conducting these kind strike/attack missions. Due to financial constraints, more spares or examples need to be purchased in the interim (until economy improves so that more modern items can be purchased or developed).

More F-7PG's need to bought at a cheap price and upgraded to handle BVR missiles (similar it IAF Bisons).

Increasing number of JF-17 Thunders will take time....block 3 numbers need to increase gradually (total number 250-300) in the long run.

F-16s numbers need to increase (if feasible)..I.e for spare parts and upgrade.

All this will be an interim measure until Pakistan's 5th generation aircraft eventually come into service.

Pakistan Also needs to upgrade existing AWACS and Electronic Warfare aircraft. The numbers of Electronic Warfare aircraft need to increase substantially.

The network centric Warfare of Pakistan needs to increase...so that it can continue to 'surprise it's enemies

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## Cookie Monster

baqai said:


> Allah o Akbar  MashaAllah .... 600 bola hai tu i guess thora tu "onch neech" hu ga zaroor


Oonch toh sahi hai neech nahi manzoor hum PDF fanboys ko.

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## Maarkhoor

hussain0216 said:


> Last question, do we know if it can be carried by the JF17 now?


Yes and no...
Yes mean with current configuration of missile it can't be fit but with folding back fins it can be and as per reports it is under construction / trials.



Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan conducted successful flight test of Air Launched Cruise Missile “Ra’ad-II”. Ra’ad-II, with a range of 600 Km, which significantly enhances air delivered strategic standoff capability on land and at sea. The weapon system is equipped with state of the art guidance and navigation systems ensuring engagement of targets with high precision. The successful flight test was witnessed by Lieutenant General Nadeem Zaki Manj, Director General Strategic Plans Division, Dr. Nabeel Hayat Malik, Chairman NESCOM, senior officers from Strategic Plans Division, Strategic Forces and Strategic Organizations. Director General Strategic Plans Division appreciated the technical prowess, dedication and commitment of scientists and engineers who contributed whole-heartedly to develop the weapon system and making this launch a success. He also termed it “a major step towards complementing Pakistan’s deterrence capability”. The President, Prime Minister of Pakistan, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee and Services Chiefs have congratulated the Scientists and Engineers on the successful conduct of missile test.


Fuel air explosion....imagine this thing hit Indian airbase and without destroying the structures shock waves will rendered Indian jets useless.

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## TOPGUN

Great news mashallah !!

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## Taimoor Khan

South block in New Delhi and Doval office can be easily targeted with precision, avioding collateral damage, while flying deep inside Pakistani airspace. 

Range wise, it surpasses the European storm shadow, and I doubt the Indian sugardaddies Israelis got anything comparable in their inventory as well. 

Would be interesting on how Turks will see this development. They are very keen on defense cooperation. Their SOM standoff missile is very handy but lack the range. 600+ km range mean targets in Israel can be hit with standoff ranges.

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## Sine Nomine

The Eagle said:


> You will never find any details of use or role of any strategic weapon as such. When, how, where will be deployed is the key of tactics. Ra'ad II details will not be shared but timing as such is good enough to run my imagination towards more offensive & strategic nature weapon being successfully tested. The difference and in appearance; will validate the purpose of this launch & testing for the eyes only.


It's a hidden knife in sleeves of Pakistan,even color of operational version is not known to anyone let alone parameters.

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## NeonNinja

Congratulations to all

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## StormBreaker

Cookie Monster said:


> Oonch toh sahi hai neech nahi manzoor hum PDF fanboys ko.


@MastanKhan approves oonch as well as neech of range. That is a basic scientific rule 



Sine Nomine said:


> It's a hidden knife in sleeves of Pakistan,even color of operational version is not known to anyone let alone parameters.


I never liked the orange color tho. Looks like a sausage if you ask me, they should give it a silver/grey/black color similar to SOM of Turkey

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## DESERT FIGHTER

I believe we have had if in service for years now.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Pied Piper said:


> More F-7PG's need to bought at a cheap price and upgraded to handle BVR missiles (similar it IAF Bisons).


No


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## Maxpane

Congrats to all Pakistanis and salute to the scientists who always work hard for the security of Pakistan

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## Shah_Deu

A very significant test! A range of 600km makes it even more interesting. Mid Path Correction makes it even more deadlier!

Consider a scenario.

S-400 picks a target deep within our airspace. As soon as it fires at it, it reveals its position. Being a TEL, the crew will want to pack up and leave the position as per the shoot and scoot strategy. Little they know, their follower (Ra'ad 2) has a mid course correction! *Hunter becomes the prey!* Ideally for us all the TELs of S-400 battery can fire at the same time to lose all of them within a matter of minutes! And all this, under the big eye of S-400 scanning radar so Gangus can record the proof of its own destruction!* $5.4 Billion up in smoke! Game over before it even got started!*

  CONGRATULATIONS PAKISTAN

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> View attachment 606942
> View attachment 606943
> View attachment 606944


It says both at sea and land
This is new
Have they found a seeker for at sea ship targets.

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## Shah_Deu

ziaulislam said:


> It says both at sea and land
> This is new
> Have they found a seeker for at sea ship targets.


Being at sea is similar to the shoot and scoot on land. Both the targets are dynamic, hence could be treated with the same medicine!


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## ziaulislam

Bilal. said:


> Notice the new X-tail configuration, meaning better clearance for JFT


Good catch

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Yes they had ordered. I hope we develop Supersonic/Hypersonic ALCM against Indian ALCM Brahmos


Supersonic anti ship missiles we already have in form of c803 and acm-400 but hypersonic is has to long way to come


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## ziaulislam

StormBreaker said:


> @aliyusuf Notice the timing guys, RAAD 2 was first displayed in 2017 March Parade but test video is released today. Block 3 first prototype is already flying, 2nd in May inshaAllah. We might see the next RAAD II appearance directly on a Block 3 test flight or sequential flights by this year. Just a guess


Seems different from "that" raad 2..its smaller and different fin and forward section 
May be that one never went into serial production


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## Basel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What does strategic standoff capability means in Sea. Anti Ship? @Signalian @HRK @Dazzler @Basel @Gryphon



Nuclear strike capacity.

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## raja786

All the defence insulation on indian side within 1000km range are at risk now, a big migraine for cold start doctrine. Amo dumps oil storage tanks front air fields every little or big insulation is potential target. Need a map to see 1000km from our side where and what we can hit. As the weapon has 600km range always undermined from our side can achieve more range if fired from high altitude.


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## Pakistani Fighter

raja786 said:


> All the defence insulation on indian side within 1000km range are at risk now, a big migraine for cold start doctrine. Amo dumps oil storage tanks front air fields every little or big insulation is potential target. Need a map to see 1000km from our side where and what we can hit. As the weapon has 600km range always undermined from our side can achieve more range if fired from high altitude.


We already had Babur 2(750km) for this

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## Shah_Deu

raja786 said:


> All the defence insulation on indian side within 1000km range are at risk now, a big migraine for cold start doctrine. Amo dumps oil storage tanks front air fields every little or big insulation is potential target. Need a map to see 1000km from our side where and what we can hit. As the weapon has 600km range always undermined from our side can achieve more range if fired from high altitude.


Modi and Doval could be addressed in Delhi directly by PAF now! Previously only PA had this capability!

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## koolio

Congratulations to the Pakistani engineers and scientists, I am still waiting for war hungry RSS to invade Azad Kashmir then we can use these toys to smoke them out and put them back in thier caves where they belong.

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## Dazzler



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## raja786

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> We already had Babur 2(750km) for this


With this babe we got free hand. Imagine 2 of these on each Jeff and rest Mirage 50 or 60 of them heading towards multiple locations. They can cause hell on other side.

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## Darth Vader

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Can Loss of weight be attributed to Lesser Warhead?


Could be but with Better materials could increase the survivability of platform.
Pakistan had this issue with its Ballistic platforms where range could be affected depending on the weight of payload


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## Pakistani Fighter

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> This makes all *INS capital naval surface assets targets of our Stand Off Strike Packages*... and with it goes those Indian dreams of blockading our sealines of communications...


They can take out your Surface fleet with their Fighter jets carrying Anti ship Missiles like Mig29K. U need destroyers with long range SAMs to deny Indian jets and cruise missiles from coming close to your surface fleets


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## raja786

Dazzler said:


>


Look at those red circles man that's way inside in from our side not even close to border and where we hitting. Bombay is gonna get hit pretty bad.

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## The Eagle

StormBreaker said:


> I never liked the orange color tho. Looks like a sausage if you ask me, they should give it a silver/grey/black color similar to SOM of Turkey



Colour choice for tests, easy to visually track it.



Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> YoungPak,
> 
> It is perhaps too early to form a conclusive opinion..given how *SPD keeps everything under tight wraps* even when they are operational as @Sine Nomine correctly described.
> 
> Air to Sea!
> Air to Land!
> 
> Since, Target at Sea requires course correction...we can safely deduct, as you have said, that moving targets on land can also become destructable.
> 
> Pak has extensive *digital liberaries of all of Indian fixed targets*.. and are constantly updated...so that is not a worry. It is the mobile ones...such as *BraMouse *and this *S400 *which need to be made redundant... and *we do see signs of attempts in this regard by SPD.*
> 
> SOW is now part and parcel of our *OffensiveDefence* as we saw in *Operation Swift Retort* @The Eagle
> 
> By the looks of the *Ra'ad II *it doesn't have that *squarish bulk of Ra'ad I* but is rather a different form altogether @HRK
> Also the fins are Xd.... my feeling is we are looking at *air luanched Babur version*...which is also very *understated* in range and payload.
> 
> *The biggest headache for us has been protection of OurSea*... and the smallish size of our PNS..which is now coming of Age after 72 years and I might add it is becoming rather potent agressive force...*with 2nd/3rd Strike Responsibiites! *
> 
> Now if we can put all our assets on the table...we can see that Azmat Class can impose an effective _*Cordon Sanitaire*_ for *400+ Km* from its stationing postion... And then we have *coastal defences* to provide cover to these assets..
> 
> Now this will force the INS to be stationed far away from the strike range of our Azmat Class... and this the area of operation from which we can now strike with Ra'ad II... *600km Stand off distance*...
> 
> This makes all *INS capital naval surface assets targets of our Stand Off Strike Packages*... and with it goes those Indian dreams of blockading our sealines of communications...
> 
> On land we need to be much more creative given the layered defensive systems Indians have in place... hence, as you rightly mentioned, saturation strikes with *cheaper SOWs becomes extremely Innovative* and Cost Effective solution for us...
> 
> *However, we need to work on these solutions a bit more*... Turkish SOM is compact enough for Thunder... we can work with Turks on this... *SouthAfricans *have other solutions as well... so our *Options increase without bankrupting the PakNation or engaging in Stupid Arms Race.*
> 
> *The Paradigm is simple:* *Make Indian expensive toys redundant through cost effective solutions.* (Creativity, innovation and more creativiity)
> 
> Of course, it is not good for us..since, the bragging rights go away with this approach. *But the War is about Winning and not Bragging. *
> 
> I do percieve, in due time, we shall see *SPD testing Supersonic Cruise Missiles* as well... a lot of solutions are available.. and we, as always, don't reinvent the wheel...we improve the wheel every time!
> 
> I have not included PNS near future platforms from Turkiye or PRC... because with arrival of those our Naval Air Defence will get the needed boost along with Our Strike Range...
> 
> *If India spends $5.4Bln for S400 and we can take it out with $5.4mln mixed package* then I believe it to be an Innovative, Cost Effective Offensive Defence...without any bragging rights as penalty!
> 
> In all this focus on Karachi we have somehow neglected Gawadar... we need to see this Ra'ad II test in broader context.
> 
> For now, of course, it all speculative till ...if ever... we know more about our new _*danda*_!
> 
> Mangus



Ameen to you Sir. Imagine, just an hypothetical scenario that S400 with 400 Km range (Maximum to say for argument) and then a Babur just going for hunting past that range safely launched, with a smile paint on front saying that "Surprise".

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## Dazzler

raja786 said:


> Look at those red circles man that's way inside in from our side not even close to border and where we hitting. Bombay is gonna get hit pretty bad.



Now imagine it being launched from FOBs, the ranges will extend further deep inside. Both versions are in active service.

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## SIPRA

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @SIPRA Pajee, now shall come those who will catch fish from pixx... Always ... *kiray kaddae nae!*



"Aata gundi ae, tay hildi ae"

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## Maarkhoor

Sine Nomine said:


> It's a hidden knife in sleeves of Pakistan,even color of operational version is not known to anyone let alone parameters.


People here not discussing the real feature of this missile...it is stealth cruise missile and Indian will only know when this thing will hit them on their heads.

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## raja786

Dazzler said:


> Now imagined it being launched from FOBs, the ranges will extend further deep inside. Both versions are in active service.


I am not concerned hitting them deep but hitting high value targets on front line with safe distance. Now it seems all possible even they deploy S400. It's not just ads a knock out punch but sends Indians back to drawing boards. A sneaky attack on front air fields with Rafael parked there. This babe just opens all the doors seems hard to open with S400 in play. Top it all we dont buy this, this is our home grown missile. Saving on all fronts. Sending shivers all the way deep inside kufir کفر۔

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## Shah_Deu

raja786 said:


> I am not concerned hitting them deep but hitting high value targets on front line with safe distance. Now it seems all possible even they deploy S400. It's not just ads a knock out punch but sends Indians back to drawing boards. A sneaky attack on front air fields with Rafael parked there. This babe just opens all the doors seems hard to open with S400 in play. Top it all we dont buy this, this is our home grown missile. Saving on all fronts. Sending shivers all the way deep inside kufir کفر۔


 Next time inshaAllah we need to take the shit out of this Gangu Bully. Only locks wouldnt work.

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## Maarkhoor

Dazzler said:


>


Stealth cruise missile with conventional and un-conventional warhead a nightmare for India since their S-400 is now in our range either they dare or they have to put them out of range in both cases we denied India the full advantage of S-400.

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## raja786

Shah_Deu said:


> Next time inshaAllah we need to take the shit out of this Gangu Bully. Only locks wouldnt work.


Cool heads always win. That was in our interest not to kill him or create massive destruction. When time comes Inshallah we will achieve that. All thanks to Almighty we have good brains in top brass and good well spoken PM in our ranks. They have put our country in limelight. It seems Pakistan is so important for world all of sudden.

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## Sine Nomine

StormBreaker said:


> I never liked the orange color tho. Looks like a sausage if you ask me, they should give it a silver/grey/black color similar to SOM of Turkey


Both Babur and Ra'ad have orange colors,you always see that during testing that's only for visibility purpose.It aids in visibility using lens.



Maarkhoor said:


> People here not discussing the real feature of this missile...it is stealth cruise missile and Indian will only know when this thing will hit them on their heads.


These are known features,it's an ASSASSIN in hands of Govt,there are lot of things this system can do it's deployment with grace of Almighty would be surprise for enemy at many levels.

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## LeGenD

Very impressive development. 



Shah_Deu said:


> A very significant test! A range of 600km makes it even more interesting. Mid Path Correction makes it even more deadlier!
> 
> Consider a scenario.
> 
> S-400 picks a target deep within our airspace. As soon as it fires at it, it reveals its position. Being a TEL, the crew will want to pack up and leave the position as per the shoot and scoot strategy. Little they know, their follower (Ra'ad 2) has a mid course correction! *Hunter becomes the prey!* Ideally for us all the TELs of S-400 battery can fire at the same time to lose all of them within a matter of minutes! And all this, under the big eye of S-400 scanning radar so Gangus can record the proof of its own destruction!* $5.4 Billion up in smoke! Game over before it even got started!*
> 
> CONGRATULATIONS PAKISTAN


Not so fast, my friend.

Pakistani ballistic missiles and cruise missiles are largely committed to strategic applications (to deliver nuclear payloads to potential targets). These are not easy to mass produce due to 'capacity constraints' which are largely overlooked in the Public discourse.

S-400 system feature several launchers and can develop fire solution for multiple targets in one go. India is also expected to complement S-400 system with additional set of defenses - layered defensive strategy.

To counter _that_, Pakistan might have to subject the location of an S-400 system to a volley of ballistic missiles followed by UAV as well as introduce Ra'ad II cruise missiles in the mix. WE can take cues from the Iranian model of mass producing theater ballistic missiles (TBMs) and UAV for the needful. If this is not easy then Pakistan can try its best to make sure that the costs of waging a WAR with _it_ will remain very high for India for indefinite period.

If several countries (Russia; Israel; France; USA) are committed to enable India to deter China in the long term, I am not sure how strategic balance can be ensured in the region for indefinite period.

Pakistan-China duo is POTENT in theory but China have never gone out of its way to make it possible for Pakistan to defeat India in any WAR before. This might change with CPEC in the picture hopefully _but_ Pakistan need a bigger geopolitical clout wherein it can reach out to Turkey, USA and UK for advanced technologies. Pakistan must devise a comprehensive strategy to fix its dysfunctional economy and develop powerful connections.

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## Rafi

.

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## Pakistani Fighter

LeGenD said:


> Very impressive development.
> 
> 
> Not so fast, my friend.
> 
> Pakistani ballistic missiles and cruise missiles are largely committed to strategic applications (to deliver nuclear payloads to potential targets). These are not easy to mass produce due to 'capacity constraints' which are largely overlooked in the Public discourse.
> 
> S-400 system feature several launchers and can develop fire solution for multiple targets in one go. India is also expected to complement S-400 system with additional set of defenses - layered defensive strategy.
> 
> To counter _that_, Pakistan might have to subject the location of an S-400 system to a volley of ballistic missiles followed by UAV as well as introduce Ra'ad II cruise missiles in the mix. WE can take cues from the Iranian model of mass producing theater ballistic missiles (TBMs) and UAV for the needful. If this is not easy then Pakistan can try its best to make sure that the costs of waging a WAR with _it_ will remain very high for India for indefinite period.
> 
> If several countries (Russia; Israel; France; USA) are committed to enable India to deter China in the long term, I am not sure how strategic balance can be ensured in the region for indefinite period.
> 
> Pakistan-China duo is POTENT in theory but China have never gone out of its way to make it possible for Pakistan to defeat India in any WAR before. This might change with CPEC in the picture hopefully _but_ Pakistan need a bigger geopolitical clout wherein it can reach out to Turkey, USA and UK for advanced technologies. Pakistan must devise a comprehensive strategy to fix its dysfunctional economy and develop powerful connections.


Only two reliable partners we have. China and Turkey. Happy to see both developing in military technology

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

A good coincidence with President Trump’s visit to India!! A good news for the US defense industries. A good job from Pak....

No wonder Turkey is also extending her cruise missile ranges to 800Km....

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## Goku

raja786 said:


> Look at those red circles man that's way inside in from our side not even close to border and where we hitting. Bombay is gonna get hit pretty bad.


Bombay /Mumbai is not in that red circle.


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## monitor

> During its March 23 Pakistan Day Parade, the Pakistan Strategic Plans Division (SPD) officially revealed the Ra’ad 2 (“Thunder 2”) air-launched cruise missile (ALCM).
> 
> Described as an improved and extended-range of the 350 km Ra’ad ALCM, which was introduced by Air Weapons Complex (AWC) and the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) in 2007, the Ra’ad 2 has a stated range of 550 km



So Pakistan have successfully extended the range to 600 KM though they had the plane to extend it to 550 KM . So Congratulation on this excellence development . 
.

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## raja786

Goku said:


> Bombay /Mumbai is not in that red circle.


That circle is just to show the radius, we are not bound to ground or limited to options.

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## HRK

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> my feeling is we are looking at *air luanched Babur version*...which is also very *understated* in range and payload.


RAAD is Babur Cruise Missile adopted for air launch .... 


Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> This makes all *INS capital naval surface assets targets of our Stand Off Strike Packages*... and with it goes those Indian dreams of blockading our sealines of communications...


all of coast of Sindh and the coast of Indian Gujarat and Eastern Maharashtra would be a contested space for naval forces of India and Pakistan

Now I don't see Indian Navy deploying its Naval Assets within 1000 Km range at the south of Sindh Coast, but there is a possibility of deployment of Indian Naval Flotilla in open International sea 200-300 Km down south of Duqm port of Oman where they have agreement for logistic and docking with Oman to intercept and disturb Pakistani SLOC.

So from the south of Gwadar and Makran Coast relatively 1,000 KM secure zone for operation for PN would be available, but IN submarine force in this zone would still pose threat in this zone, therefore long range and long endurance anti-submarine Jet is necessary for PN operation in this zone in Future Naval war.

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> RAAD is Babur Cruise Missile adopted for air launch ....



It also has or had H4 DNA in it

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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> It also has or had H4 DNA in it


undeniable fact ....


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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal. said:


> It also has or had H4 DNA in it


What about Tomahawk?



HRK said:


> RAAD is Babur Cruise Missile adopted for air launch ....
> 
> all of coast of Sindh and the coast of Indian Gujarat and Eastern Maharashtra would be a contested space for naval forces of India and Pakistan
> 
> Now I don't see Indian Navy deploying its Naval Assets within 1000 Km range at the south of Sindh Coast, but there is a possibility of deployment of Indian Naval Flotilla in open International sea 200-300 Km down south of Duqm port of Oman where they have agreement for logistic and docking with Oman to intercept and disturb Pakistani SLOC.
> 
> So from the south of Gwadar and Makran Coast relatively 1,000 KM secure zone for operation for PN would be available, but IN submarine force in this zone would still pose threat in this zone, therefore long range and long endurance anti-submarine Jet is necessary for PN operation in this zone in Future Naval war.
> View attachment 607066


The one with Air Superiority will surely win the contest


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## Mujahid Memon

bananarepublic said:


> Ok so now we have a ALCM with 600km range that can target both land and sea targets .
> So now our navy has harba,zarb and now raad.


There's a high probability the next Feb 26/27 will happen in the sea

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## waz

Great development. 
Now time for home developed supersonic versions.

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## HRK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What about Tomahawk?
> 
> 
> The one with Air Superiority will surely win the contest


India does not have capabilities to establish Air Superiority 1000 KM away from her shores ..... 


Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> If I may add... *UACV for PNS with SOM* carrying capcity will be force multipliers... both Turkish and Chinese systems are available.. however, PAC needs to now produce that MALE UACV for all *Four Services*...


UCAV is already under consideration and officially stated by PN chief





but I believe initially those would be for operation in littoral zone for Marine and near sea maritime operations not in anti-ship role, though I may be wrong as Turkey is developing MALE UAV which can carry SOM so may be PN may find her interest in capabilities similar to Turkey 


Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Regardless, key here is *Integeration *and application of *Artificial Intelligence* into our overall asset utilisations...which is available and can be developed further.


AI is must for future wars in all domains

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## Gryphon

This is a step towards consolidation of the triad, congrats to PAF.

Look forward to see this fired from the JF.

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## Khanivore

Off-topic but has Pakistan looked into loitering munitions, something to suppress SAM defences or take out armored columns or supply conveys?

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## Salza

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> However, I would like to see a *Supersonic Cruise Missile* test sooner than later.



*Supersonic Cruise Missile* --> CM-400AKG (experts believe that we already have this missile from China for Thunders, not 100% confirmed yet)

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## Haris Ali2140

Gryphon said:


> This is a step towards consolidation of the triad, congrats to PAF.
> 
> Look forward to see this fired from the JF.


What about nukes from subs???


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## FuturePAF

*Similar to the KEPD-350E*
















Haris Ali2140 said:


> What about nukes from subs???


Babur 3 at 450 km

Although a *hypersonic* boost glide missile like the CJ-100/DF-100 would be great. Small enough that a hanger class could carry 8-12 in a VLS configuration. (hopefully; my guess is the diameter is 1 meter or less)
At a *1000+ km range* per globalsecurity.org

if half of the hangor class carry VLS similar to the Amur 950 SSK design (the other half still as well as the Agostas carrying babur 3 as backup), Pakistan can always have a modest minimum credible second strike force on deterence patrol AT ALL TIMES; even at 1000 km off the coast of Mumbai. the indians would be going nuts sending out their P-8s trying to hunt down all our submarines.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2019/10/cj-100-or-df-100-cruise-missile.html?m=1
https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/df-100.htm








Khanivore said:


> Off-topic but has Pakistan looked into loitering munitions, something to suppress SAM defences or take out armored columns or supply conveys?


PAF should look into developing a similar missile as the Spear EW; designed to suppress S-400 and allow regular Spear missiles to take out the SAM radar and launchers.

here is the Chinese equivalent; PAF just needs to build an EW variant with China and we can safely arm the JF-17 Growlers with a means to suppress enemy air defense from multiple angles and from a safe distance

*We are already getting BriteCloud From Leonardo, stick it in the Chinese CS/BBM-2 and you have Spear 3, SEAD capabilities greatly improved, S-400 capabilities neutered. *

http://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2014/11/csbbm2-100-kg-chinese-small-diameter.html









These can also be launched along with or inside the Ra'ad II Missile and released near the target to provide terminal jamming protection from enemy air defenses, similar to the MBDA CVS 401. except the sub-munitions would be two mini-spear EW type missiles that protect for the last 100-200 km of the journey.

more details on Spear EW
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-warfare-variant-to-swarm-with-is-a-huge-deal

BriteCloud

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

HRK said:


> UCAV is already under consideration and officially stated by PN chief
> View attachment 607070
> 
> 
> but I believe initially those would be for operation in littoral zone for Marine and near sea maritime operations not in anti-ship role, though I may be wrong as Turkey is developing MALE UAV which can carry SOM so may be PN may find her interest in capabilities similar to Turkey
> 
> AI is must for future wars in all domains


The following brothers-in-arms have the motivation and potential to embody the “collective” and “cooperating” and “collaborative” intelligence of Turks and Paks spanning over a couple of millenniums spanking hard all the “ignorant” and “arrogant” folks - imaged after Satan - spread over the entire known world....

These are the modern versions of the _Zulfiker_ at the hands of neo _Zulkernain_...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gryphon said:


> This is a step towards consolidation of the triad, congrats to PAF.
> 
> Look forward to see this fired from the JF.


The Ra'ad II was revealed in 2017, and with a range of 550 km. So, not only did they extend the stated range to 600 km, but it's been 3 years since its first disclosure. So, I wonder if they actually went back to redesign it (e.g. @Bilal.'s notes about the different horizontal stabilizers). The Ra'ad II shown at IDEAS 2017 seems to retain the older version's stabilizers, while this one has a new design @JamD

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## Haris Ali2140

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Ra'ad II was revealed in 2017, and with a range of 550 km. So, not only did they extend the stated range to 600 km, but it's been 3 years since its first disclosure. So, I wonder if they actually went back to redesign it (e.g. @Bilal.'s notes about the different horizontal stabilizers). The Ra'ad II shown at IDEAS 2017 seems to retain the older version's stabilizers, while this one has a new design @JamD



Does RAAD series have midcourse correction capability???


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## Rafi

Very exciting thing is the development of new warhead types, which are being employed for different targets.

Further improvements in design allow more power at a much lower weight, allowing Raad type missiles to have thermo nuclear power.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Ra'ad II was revealed in 2017, and with a range of 550 km. So, not only did they extend the stated range to 600 km, but it's been 3 years since its first disclosure. So, I wonder if they actually went back to redesign it (e.g. @Bilal.'s notes about the different horizontal stabilizers). The Ra'ad II shown at IDEAS 2017 seems to retain the older version's stabilizers, while this one has a new design @JamD



Many possibilities, Depends on if the Doctrine or requirement of the PAF were updated in the last 3 years, especially after lessons learned from Feb 2019.

Maybe re-design to fit the JF-17 Block III (Strengthen wings to carry it) under the wing, as well as making it lighter to also allow it to be carried by the JF-17. Hopefully integration with more modern data-links to prevent jamming if there is a man in the loop capability, or re-designed with help from the Turks to make it more stealthy. Or could be re-designed around new warhead designs; minimum credible deterrence with a tactical (5 kt) warhead. Similar to the French Doctrine of _ultime avertissement_ or Final warning or Warning Shot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-Sol_Moyenne_Portée

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## Wrath

Congratulations boys


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## SecularNationalist

Zarvan said:


> RAAD 1 has 350 KM Range and RAAD II has 600 KM range


So finally something new to see in a test after a long time.Bravo.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Ra'ad II was revealed in 2017, and with a range of 550 km. So, not only did they extend the stated range to 600 km, but it's been 3 years since its first disclosure. So, I wonder if they actually went back to redesign it (e.g. @Bilal.'s notes about the different horizontal stabilizers). The Ra'ad II shown at IDEAS 2017 seems to retain the older version's stabilizers, while this one has a new design @JamD


It seems that RAAD II never went into production and was redesigned to be fitted in thunder

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## FuturePAF

ziaulislam said:


> It seems that RAAD II never went into production and was redesigned to be fitted in thunder



Wise Choice. Wonder if the JF-17 will only be able to one on the Centerline or Two Under the wings; Probably the later due to ground clearance, the missile does seem to be relatively large.

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## xyx007

Allah Akbar and Allah big blessings to our Pakistani Engineers and Scientist. This successful test definitely unrest India and projection are steerable to hit the Indian targets and low altitude flight without getting a trace from the air defense system.

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## Haris Ali2140

FuturePAF said:


> Wise Choice. Wonder if the JF-17 will only be able to one on the Centerline or Two Under the wings; Probably the later due to ground clearance, the missile does seem to be relatively large.


By wiki the length od RAAD 1 is 4.85 m whereas the length of CM-400AKG is more than 6 m.


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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Ra'ad II was revealed in 2017, and with a range of 550 km. So, not only did they extend the stated range to 600 km, but it's been 3 years since its first disclosure. So, I wonder if they actually went back to redesign it (e.g. @Bilal.'s notes about the different horizontal stabilizers). The Ra'ad II shown at IDEAS 2017 seems to retain the older version's stabilizers, while this one has a new design @JamD


I think the paraded Ra'ad II was an initial design iteration that has since evolved into the Ra'ad II we saw today. It was kind of weird for the SPD to parade a missile that wasn't even officially tested/revealed before that. So it makes sense that the final design is different. The X-tail might very well be indicative of two things:
1. Reduced weight of the missile (allowing for overall smaller fins: the X-tail has smaller area than the original H-tail).
2. An active desire to reduce the size of the missile for it be carried by the JF-17 (or not). 
3. Perhaps the mysterious SOW tested on JF-17 might also have an X-tail (this is pure speculation) and that design made it onto Ra'ad II.

Flight control system design is a bit more complicated for an X-tail than a H-tail so this advancement may have taken time as well.

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## Rafi

Ansu fati said:


> Excellent news now should be tested in syria against bashar el dog
> Can someone tell me whether those rumors about pakistan sending air defense system to turkey are they real or fake news???



Don't go off topic, there is literally no chance of this happening, unless our Turkish brethren directly ask for assistance and that is not happening.

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## Ansu fati

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> The following brothers-in-arms have the motivation and potential to embody the “collective” and “cooperating” and “collaborative” intelligence of Turks and Paks spanning over a couple of millenniums spanking hard all the “ignorant” and “arrogant” folks - imaged after Satan - spread over the entire known world....
> 
> These are the modern versions of the _Zulfiker_ at the hands of neo _Zulkernain_...
> 
> View attachment 607072
> View attachment 607073


Actually it would be GREAT NEWS IF this air cruise launched missile IS INTEGRATED into Akinci heavy mission drone
For those who question whether it is possible let me tell you it is because already turkish air launched cruise missile called som will be intergrated so adding another one is no problem for Baykar Makina-the company behind this GAME CHANGER drone
S400 is finished only toilet air defense can counter RAAD II and SOM HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

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## Haris Ali2140

Ansu fati said:


> Actually it would be GREAT NEWS IF this air cruise launched missile IS INTEGRATED into Akinci heavy mission drone
> For those who question whether it is possible let me tell you it is because already turkish air launched cruise missile called som will be intergrated so adding another one is no problem for Baykar Makina-the company behind this GAME CHANGER drone
> S400 is finished only toilet air defense can counter RAAD II and SOM HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


I read that SOM's range will cross 800 kms.

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## FuturePAF

Haris Ali2140 said:


> By wiki the length od RAAD 1 is 4.85 m whereas the length of CM-400AKG is more than 6 m.



What are their respective diameters? That will probably be more of a determinant after weight.


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## HRK

Ansu fati said:


> pakistan sending air defense system to turkey are they real or fake news???


Pakistan do not have any indigenous SAM system

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## Ansu fati

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I read that SOM's range will cross 800 kms.


That will happen in near future turkish domestic engine should be ready by 2021
Turkey has also signed engine deal with ukranians made for specifically cruise
I think raad II cruise missile and akinci with 1.5t of payloads will be critical asset against indian air defenses including against s400
There are actually a lot of secret projects in development who knows maybe turkey indeed already has 800km som version but
due to being nato member and having signed MTR convention they have to pretend like they don’t have missiles witn over 300 km range

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## Maarkhoor

Ansu fati said:


> Actually it would be GREAT NEWS IF this air cruise launched missile IS INTEGRATED into Akinci heavy mission drone
> For those who question whether it is possible let me tell you it is because already turkish air launched cruise missile called som will be intergrated so adding another one is no problem for Baykar Makina-the company behind this GAME CHANGER drone
> S400 is finished only toilet air defense can counter RAAD II and SOM HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


They already have SOM though non-nuclear....somehow our Turkish brothers are more advance in tech but again it takes some time.

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## Basel

Maarkhoor said:


> They already have SOM though non-nuclear....somehow our Turkish brothers are more advance in tech but again it takes some time.



They are part of NATO which allow them access to advance tech which is good for their industry.

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## Dalit

StormBreaker said:


> @MastanKhan approves oonch as well as neech of range. That is a basic scientific rule
> 
> 
> I never liked the orange color tho. Looks like a sausage if you ask me, they should give it a silver/grey/black color similar to SOM of Turkey



The orange color is probably only used for visibility and a test prototype. I have seen Babur missiles in camo.







You know the test prototype of this missile are also orange and white.

The pictures are grainy, but first impression is definitely that the missile looks sleeker compared to bulkier Ra'ad I. Looks like aerodynamics got improved drastically. This makes sense if it is going to be integrated with JF-17. A lethal combo. JF-17 is already getting a massive upgrade due to Block 3. With such additional improvements the JF-17 is a different animal all together.

These upgrades is what sets our JF-17 apart from others. It is a true multirole fighter. Such weapons upgrades also add more teeth to our existing platforms.

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## Falcon26

Pied Piper said:


> Alhamdulillah....excellent news....the range of Raad 2 has increased considerably.
> 
> A saturation of Raad ALCM fired on enemy positions, at least 600km away from the target - Will considerably erode any advantage that the Indian Armed forces currently posses. It can potentially nullify the Russian S400 missiles that India has ordered. A Saturation strike on key locations of S400 or other strategic missiles can render Indian defences obsolete.
> 
> Once key targets of the supporting items for S400 (radars or different supporting vehicles) have been hit...then gaps will emerge in its defence ability. 1 or 2 key items taken will considerably reduce the effectiveness of S400 systems - Albeit cheapley taken out.
> 
> Pakistan's current economic position and the 5th generation warfare implemented against it...requires astute reflection and best mechanisms to deny or erode enemy capabilities.
> 
> The 50 years old Mirages (with the excellent service by PAC) has made this aircraft still worthy for conducting these kind strike/attack missions. Due to financial constraints, more spares or examples need to be purchased in the interim (until economy improves so that more modern items can be purchased or developed).
> 
> More F-7PG's need to bought at a cheap price and upgraded to handle BVR missiles (similar it IAF Bisons).
> 
> Increasing number of JF-17 Thunders will take time....block 3 numbers need to increase gradually (total number 250-300) in the long run.
> 
> F-16s numbers need to increase (if feasible)..I.e for spare parts and upgrade.
> 
> All this will be an interim measure until Pakistan's 5th generation aircraft eventually come into service.
> 
> Pakistan Also needs to upgrade existing AWACS and Electronic Warfare aircraft. The numbers of Electronic Warfare aircraft need to increase substantially.
> 
> The network centric Warfare of Pakistan needs to increase...so that it can continue to 'surprise it's enemies



There’s a need to focus on supersonic and hypersonic delivery systems as well; else, Pakistan becomes a one trick pony with its collection of subsonic cruisers

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## Ali_Baba

War Thunder said:


> why would they make a missile that cannot be carried by half their fleet?



PAF would !!!! It would not suprise me.. Not always the most strategic of thinkers!!! That is why they had to redesign it now with the new tail wings so that it could fit onto something different!

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## krash

Bilal. said:


> Notice the new X-tail configuration, meaning better clearance for JFT





HRK said:


> yaap I also felt some difference in tail section but waiting for clear pics .....



I believe Ra'ad II was unveiled back in 2017 on March 23rd. It didn't have an X-tail then.






Did they change the missile drastically or is it because of the poor quality of the video?




Bilal. said:


> Old T shaped tail vs new X-tail. Better compact design may make it easier to integrate on JFT.
> 
> View attachment 606945
> 
> 
> View attachment 606946



Does seem like they might've changed it.

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## Maarkhoor

Basel said:


> They are part of NATO which allow them access to advance tech which is good for their industry.


And for us....

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## Rafi

krash said:


> I believe Ra'ad II was unveiled back in 2017 on March 23rd. It didn't have an X-tail then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did they change the missile drastically or is it because of the poor quality of the video?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does seem like they might've changed it.



More likely they just used Raad 1 as they didn't want to reveal the prototype of Raad 2, nuff said.

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## krash

Rafi said:


> More likely they just used Raad 1 as they didn't want to reveal the prototype of Raad 2, nuff said.



Could very well be. Would be less than wise, but I wouldn't put it past us.


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## Rafi

krash said:


> Could very well be. Would be less than wise, but I wouldn't put it past us.



It would be very wise, because of the very low rcs of Raad 2, it will be very hard to spot........nuff said.

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## Ali_Baba

Taimoor Khan said:


> South block in New Delhi and Doval office can be easily targeted with precision, avioding collateral damage, while flying deep inside Pakistani airspace.



Good point!!! that didnot occur to me until you said. It is a deterrence for Modi, with a personal promise to ram it up his arse for sure!

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## StormBreaker

Dalit said:


> The orange color is probably only used for visibility and a test prototype. I have seen Babur missiles in camo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know the test prototype of this missile are also orange and white.
> 
> The pictures are grainy, but first impression is definitely that the missile looks sleeker compared to bulkier Ra'ad I. Looks like aerodynamics got improved drastically. This makes sense if it is going to be integrated with JF-17. A lethal combo. JF-17 is already getting a massive upgrade due to Block 3. With such additional improvements the JF-17 is a different animal all together.
> 
> These upgrades is what sets our JF-17 apart from others. It is a true multirole fighter. Such weapons upgrades also add more teeth to our existing platforms.


Doesn’t look slimmer tho, actually more bulkier if you ask me


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## xyx007

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> And with all these little disclosures... the dreams of *PakhandBharat *go *down the drain*...
> _*Zalima ae ki kar dita e!!!*_


Can't stop my laugh .....perfectly fit

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## Ali_Baba

*India on alert as Pakistan moves one step closer to nuclear superiority after breakthrough*

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...uclear-missile-world-war-3-latest-Kashmir-ww3

(a bit of rag reporting didn't do anyone anyharm).

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## Taimoor Khan

Ali_Baba said:


> Good point!!! that didnot occur to me until you said. It is a deterrence for Modi, with a personal promise to ram it up his arse for sure!




Yeap, can be delivered through the window of Modi and Doval office, right up their rear ends.

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## krash

Rafi said:


> It would be very wise, because of the very low rcs of Raad 2, it will be very hard to spot........nuff said.



Not the design change, I meant plastering Raad II on a Raad I. Discounting typical Pakistani mess ups, we usually don't disclose systems until after they've been in use for quite some time, let alone repaint older systems as new. I'd put my money on design alterations post 2017. Would also account for the change in range from 550 km to 600 km.

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> Old T shaped tail vs new X-tail. Better compact design may make it easier to integrate on JFT.
> 
> View attachment 606945
> 
> 
> View attachment 606946


Based off these pictures Ra'ad II HAS to be lighter than Ra'ad. The tail surface area has been halved. This can also point towards a more compact design (with heavier components packed closely and closer to the center of gravity). Very happy with the work being done at AWC.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Based off these pictures Ra'ad II HAS to be lighter than Ra'ad. The tail surface area has been halved. This can also point towards a more compact design (with heavier components packed closely and closer to the center of gravity). Very happy with the work being done at AWC.


It'd be nice if the Ra'ad 2 can fit on the JF-17, but even not, it seems that is the eventual goal if making it more compact and lighter is the goal.

PS: Can't compare this to the Turkish SOM as the SOM is by design a lighter and shorter range ALCM. But if push comes to shove, I'm sure AWC can design a very similar missile with relaxed/lowered warhead and range. But the goal with the Ra'ad is to emulate the larger KEPD 350.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But if push comes to shove, I'm sure AWC can design a very similar missile with relaxed/lowered warhead and range.


I would be EXTREMELY surprised if they haven't already.

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## Foxtrot Delta

O man good news! I hope JF17 block 3 would be able to lift two of them hopefully. That mirage was carrying only 1 at center hard point. That thing looks big and heavy. Good luck pakistani engineers.

I hope among the next few remaining tests atleast one missile is a *Hypersonic* mach 7 + missile. Even if its range is 300 km i it would be enough.

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## Khan vilatey

Zephyrus said:


> Nice try R&AW


lol
KV


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## Path-Finder

I think it can go further than 600KM, I wouldn't be surprised if after some time a more extended range variant is revealed as per appropriate time. This new system is much beefier than the the first one so I think Mirage may have reached it limitation for being a delivery platform. 

I think JH7-B is needed even more so now!

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## TeesraIndiotHunter

Pakistani fighter jets flying _hundreds of kilometers_ *inside* Pakistan can launch devastating strikes on New Delhi or even Mumbai.

ZABARDAST!

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Modi desperately needs a “war” to win the next election...

By displaying such capabilities Pak is honestly trying to keep it as “civil” as possible....

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## Rafi

TeesraIndiotHunter said:


> Pakistani fighter jets flying _hundreds of kilometers_ *inside* Pakistan can launch devastating strikes on New Delhi or even Mumbai.
> 
> ZABARDAST!
> 
> Poor Hindus getting caged in india without any chance of military breakthrough to get land access to Central Asia or Middle-East and beyond. Must hurt Hindus that after dominating them for 1000 years, Muslims took away the most strategic lands of india during partition



I humbly request you change Hindu, to gangu we have our brethren in Pak who follow that faith, but are loyal and patriotic Pakistanis putting their lives on the line for our country.

Thanks.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 607090
> 
> 
> I think it can go further than 600KM, I wouldn't be surprised if after some time a more extended range variant is revealed as per appropriate time. This new system is much beefier than the the first one so I think Mirage may have reached it limitation for being a delivery platform.
> 
> I think JH7-B is needed even more so now!


We need a bomber or a jet whose capabilities of ground strike its main highlight


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## Thorough Pro

Hello Bharti.



Dil_Pakistan said:


> If anybody doesn't mind, would someone kindly simplify the information about these system i.e. type, launch platform options, target type option and range. A graphic or table of some sort would do. or kindly refer me to some link where all these information is displayed in a compact form.
> On topic, congratulations to the team and all people involved. Pakistan Zindabad



If its a headache, then its a job, if its passion then its fun.
Do your job bharti agent.



Dil_Pakistan said:


> LOL no..
> i am asking for basic information, which everyone is discussing also. its a headache to search individually on wikipedia or so.


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## blain2

Falcon26 said:


> There’s a need to focus on supersonic and hypersonic delivery systems as well; else, Pakistan becomes a one trick pony with its collection of subsonic cruisers


CM-400AKG supersonic ALCM out to 150 miles range. Pakistan can do more work on extending range on its own (due to MTCR).

Where there is a will, there is always a way. They can induct Rafale and S-400 but they cannot avoid getting hit by Pakistan and taking very serious damage if they attempt further strikes.

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## Signalian

Dil_Pakistan said:


> If anybody doesn't mind, would someone kindly simplify the information about these system i.e. type, launch platform options, target type option and range. A graphic or table of some sort would do. or kindly refer me to some link where all these information is displayed in a compact form.
> On topic, congratulations to the team and all people involved. Pakistan Zindabad


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/anat...-launched-cruise-missile.436702/#post-8416613

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## Bilal.

Rafi said:


> More likely they just used Raad 1 as they didn't want to reveal the prototype of Raad 2, nuff said.


Remember the Shaheen 2 with mid-body fin that was shown during the parade

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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> An improved navigation could hint at satellite navigation, while improved guidance could come due to a combination of better control algorithms that utilize better knowledge of the missile's aerodynamic capabilities, and possibly even mid-course corrections. This would mean that even if the missile is intercepted relatively intacdt, the enemy would not be able to determine the target. This last point could be a useful feature for next iterations, even if the current version doesn't support it.


Three phases:
1. Boost: Should see target, should receive guidance signals.
2. Mid Course: At mid-course phase, the missile comes at the desired trajectory to hit the target, so enemy would know.
3. Terminal: To hit a moving target (like a ship), terminal guidance comes to play at some stage. That could mean an active seeker, not INS nor GPS.



StormBreaker said:


> I never liked the orange color tho. Looks like a sausage if you ask me, they should give it a silver/grey/black color similar to SOM of Turkey


Orange is high visibility colour, to see the missile visible with naked eye from long range during testing.

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## Bilal.

The interesting question would be that if a smaller ALCM can achieve 600km, then what would be the actual range of Babur...

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## The Accountant

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 607090
> 
> 
> I think it can go further than 600KM, I wouldn't be surprised if after some time a more extended range variant is revealed as per appropriate time. This new system is much beefier than the the first one so I think Mirage may have reached it limitation for being a delivery platform.
> 
> I think JH7-B is needed even more so now!


JH7B is very old platform with little utility of maritime strike role ... arming Awacs and MPAs can give you better utility

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## Signalian

Shah_Deu said:


> A very significant test! A range of 600km makes it even more interesting. Mid Path Correction makes it even more deadlier!
> 
> Consider a scenario.
> 
> S-400 picks a target deep within our airspace. As soon as it fires at it, it reveals its position. Being a TEL, the crew will want to pack up and leave the position as per the shoot and scoot strategy. Little they know, their follower (Ra'ad 2) has a mid course correction! *Hunter becomes the prey!* Ideally for us all the TELs of S-400 battery can fire at the same time to lose all of them within a matter of minutes! And all this, under the big eye of S-400 scanning radar so Gangus can record the proof of its own destruction!* $5.4 Billion up in smoke! Game over before it even got started!*
> 
> CONGRATULATIONS PAKISTAN



S-400 will have a SAM and AAA layer around it, multi layered basically. There will be lots of radars including S-400's own, tracking ALCM. An ARM can be fired on the radars, but a better weapon need be to be fired at the S-400 Launcher. The conceptual model for cruise missile defence is the combined use of AEW&C, fighters, tankers and in many instances, airborne X-band surveillance radars to detect, track and engage both launch aircraft and cruise missiles.



The Accountant said:


> JH7B is very old platform with little utility of maritime strike role ... arming Awacs and MPAs can give you better utility


ATR-72 probably has an upgrade of X-Band Radar used to detect Cruise missiles.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Signalian said:


> S-400 will have a SAM and AAA layer around it, multi layered basically. There will be lots of radars including S-400's own, tracking ALCM.


Dont forget the enemy AWAC



blain2 said:


> CM-400AKG supersonic ALCM out to 150 miles range. Pakistan can do more work on extending range on its own (due to MTCR).


Does it have Low Terrian flying Capability?

I hope Babur's Range is increased to 1000+ km now


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## Riz

The Accountant said:


> JH7B is very old platform with little utility of maritime strike role ... arming Awacs and MPAs can give you better utility


Can we used AWACS to carry PL-15, Babur & RAAD???


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Does it have Low Terrian flying Capability?
> 
> I hope Babur's Range is increased to 1000+ km now


No Its a kind of semi ballistic Missile go high in the atmosphere 50,000-80,000 feet than its dive onto the targets with terminal hypersonic speed (Mach-5.5) by some source

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## Smoke

Riz said:


> Can we used AWACS to carry PL-15, Babur & RAAD???



Onboard as cargo, yes. Lol


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## Pakistani Fighter

Riz said:


> PL-15


Too risky


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Too risky


Why too risky, please explain?, PL-15 can easily integrated At least on ZDK-3 with no problem


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## Pakistani Fighter

seven0seven said:


> Why too risky, please explain?, PL-15 can easily integrated At least on ZDK-3 with no problem


Too risky to come close to enemy jets


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Too risky to come close to enemy jets


Why AWACS want to close in to enemy fighter, PL-15 has range of 150-200 km, ZDK-3 can easily guide PL-15 to its Extreme range

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## Shah_Deu

seven0seven said:


> Why AWACS want to close in to enemy fighter, PL-15 has range of 150-200 km, ZDK-3 can easily guide PL-15 to its Extreme range


Because the RCS of AWACS makes it detectable from almost the maximum range envelope of the enemy radar. Additionlly since the AWACS are slow moving targets, the Long range AAM doesnt have to bleed much energy on maneuvering all the way (AWACS cant do +9Gs to outmaneuver the AAM) which means a missile like Meteor or R-37M can take it down to their maximum range potential. Taking down an AWACS is like creating a black hole in the enemy's situational awareness and hence is a top priority target for any foe.

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## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> India does not have capabilities to establish Air Superiority 1000 KM away from her shores


By having another IAC operational with Destroyers having Long Range SAMs, they can reach close to this capability


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## Bullzz

Sep. Ashok Kumar, who laid down his life fighting in Waziristan in 2013.

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## The Accountant

Riz said:


> Can we used AWACS to carry PL-15, Babur & RAAD???


Yes we can but it is not wise to arm them with PL15.


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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 607090
> 
> 
> I think it can go further than 600KM, I wouldn't be surprised if after some time a more extended range variant is revealed as per appropriate time. This new system is much beefier than the the first one so I think Mirage may have reached it limitation for being a delivery platform.
> 
> I think JH7-B is needed even more so now!



I expect the Raad-II to replace Raad-I on the Mirages and also make it to the JF-17, spreading out the (strategic) strike capability.

The specs of KEPD 350 have been matched without much fanfare - wonder if the JASSM-ER is the new benchmark.

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## crankthatskunk

Rafi said:


> Its range is impressive, potential "range" is even more impressive Nuff said.



If We are working on close to or surpassing 1000K range, it would be "Phantastic", Indians tu gau.



Dil_Pakistan said:


> LOL no..
> i am asking for basic information, which everyone is discussing also. its a headache to search individually on wikipedia or so.



Why are you trying to give away people's secrets!!

By the way, this newest version looks lot more like Babur. 
Probably it is the amalgamation version of both. 
I was also about to ask the "Experts" that it says in the news, it uses advance systems, without giving any hint of what systems for navigation are used!! 
But I guess this question "our Experts" would solve. 
Unlike you I am not suggesting "Wiki" search.

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## Cool_Soldier

Weldon Raad II has Double Range than Raad I plus it has capability to target sea based assets (Slow Moving objects e.g ships)
It means it can be used on land against slow moving objects as well.
Portable Radars
Air defence command vehicles and Radar Vehicles
Artillery

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## Pakistani Fighter

Gryphon said:


> The specs of KEPD 350 have been matched without much fanfare - wonder if the JASSM-ER is the new benchmark.


Does it Match the specs of Storm Shadow?

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## Bilal.

Gryphon said:


> I expect the Raad-II to replace Raad-I on the Mirages and also make it to the JF-17, spreading out the (strategic) strike capability.
> 
> The specs of KEPD 350 have been matched without much fanfare - wonder if the JASSM-ER is the new benchmark.



And may spinoff into LRASM type intelligent anti-ship missile.

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## khanmubashir

qw should have raad configuration with jf17 as mirages r old and being retired


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## HRK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> By having another IAC operational with Destroyers having Long Range SAMs, they can reach close to this capability


I wish them good luck for this ....

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## Riz

Any new missile test today??


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## Shah_Deu

*Ra'ad-II cruise missile can hit Delhi from deep inside Pakistan: Report*
Ra'ad-II reportedly features design changes, allowing more types of jets to carry it

Web Desk February 19, 2020 13:37 IST





Screengrab of Ra'ad-II missile being launched from a Mirage-III/V fighter

Pakistan on Tuesday announced it had conducted a successful test of an air-launched cruise missile called the Ra'ad-II. The Inter Services Public Relations, the PR wing of the Pakistan military, released a statement on the Ra'ad-II test, noting that the weapon had a range of 600km. The Ra'ad-II cruise missile is a modernised version of the Ra'ad-I missile, which Pakistan first test-fired in 2007 and was claimed to have a range of 350km.

The Ra'ad-II was first unveiled at a military parade in 2017.

ISPR also shared a video of the Ra'ad-II cruise missile being launched off a French-built Mirage III/V fighter. The aircraft, which Pakistan has operated for over 50 years, was also used in testing the earlier Ra'ad-I missile. Interestingly, the Mirage-III/V jet was the aircraft Pakistan claimed to have used when it attempted to bomb an Indian Army facility on February 27 last year in retaliation for the Balakot air strike.

_Defence News_, a reputed defence website, on Tuesday, analysed the video footage of the Ra'ad-II test and speculated that the missile had been "entirely redesigned with a new intake and control surfaces".

The original Ra'ad-I missile had a 'twin tail' configuration, "but the Ra'ad-II appears to have adopted a more compact 'X' configuration layout", _Defence News_ reported. This would enable it to be carried on more aircraft, such as the JF-17 fighter, jointly developed by Pakistan and China. Pakistan has built more than 100 JF-17 jets and the type will be the mainstay of the Pakistan Air Force.

_Quwa_, a Pakistani website covering Islamabad's military, claimed the design changes may have made the Ra'ad-II missile lighter, conceivably enabling it to be carried under the wings of the JF-17.

*Defence News also speculated that the "range increase would allow the missile to launch well within Pakistan’s territory while being able to hit critical targets within India—New Delhi is roughly 430 kilometers from Lahore.."*

The publication observed Pakistan's need for longer-range weapons has increased as India prepares to receive the Russian S-400 air defence system. Last week, the Donald Trump administration cleared the possible sale of a medium-range air defence missile system to India, which can shoot down targets such as aircraft and cruise missiles.

_Defence News_ quoted Mansoor Ahmed, a Pakistan strategic analyst, as saying the Ra'ad-II was "Pakistan’s answer to India’s development of the Nirbhay cruise missile". Pakistan's ability to hit targets in India has been largely limited to its fleet of ballistic missiles, the use of which could be considered a massive escalation in the event of even a non-nuclear conflict.

Moreover, cruise missiles, which fly in the atmosphere like an jet airplane, are more accurate than ballistic missiles in hitting ground targets.

*https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2...t-delhi-from-deep-inside-pakistan-report.html*

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## Cookie Monster

Bilal. said:


> The interesting question would be that if a smaller ALCM can achieve 600km, then what would be the actual range of Babur...


But an ALCM has a lot of speed before launch, which would add to its range. An ALCM launched at high altitude and high speed can achieve a longer range than a similar sized cruise missile launched from standstill. Therefore even with a significant size difference between Raad and Babur...their ranges wouldn't be drastically different(as we see 600km for Raad and 750km I think for Babur).

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> I expect the Raad-II to replace Raad-I on the Mirages and also make it to the JF-17, spreading out the (strategic) strike capability.
> 
> The specs of KEPD 350 have been matched without much fanfare - wonder if the JASSM-ER is the new benchmark.


I think JH7 is now an even more mouthwatering prospect as a carrier of such systems. 

I think KEPD 350 is based on a SA system!



The Accountant said:


> JH7B is very old platform with little utility of maritime strike role ... arming Awacs and MPAs can give you better utility


No the JH7B is new development that is undergoing final tests. It should have many structural improvements but not sure about the power plant upgrade.


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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> Three phases:
> 1. Boost: Should see target, should receive guidance signals.
> 2. Mid Course: At mid-course phase, the missile comes at the desired trajectory to hit the target, so enemy would know.
> 3. Terminal: To hit a moving target (like a ship), terminal guidance comes to play at some stage. That could mean an active seeker, not INS nor GPS.



The boost phase is not needed in an ALCM. There is the initial ignition, but the classical boost is irrelevant.

Mid course and terminal phase can only be speculated based on video evidence and circumspect wording in ISPR release. I was myself going to comment on the known trajectory of incoming missile. But the key point that many of the celeberatory 600 km posts ignore is the concomitant increase in endurance, which enables a more circuitous route to fool enemy defences and exploit weaknesses in air defence. The enemy would do well by not relying on the expected trajectory of Raad II. But even having said that, the reason I posted speculative weight estimates is to show how even a layman can determine a lot about the missile from visual evidence. A determined adversary would actually construct a replica and test it in a wind tunnel to learn the full extent of the aerodynamic characteristics. I sincerely hope the deployed version is significantly different from what is shown.

Receiving mid-course updates about waypoints means there is no way for the enemy to extract the final destination from mission computers if the missile is captured intact. Coupled with unpredictable route and numerous possible enemy targets, enemy planners will certainly loose sleep over Raad II.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) has previously written about the possibility of bomblet dispenser. It is possible this version realizes this feature. The impact shown in the video does not show the missile at all. Only the start of the explosion is shown, which begins with dust rising before the actual explosion. This is in accordance with a smaller bomblet finding its target. Such a bomblet would not be visible on the camera, and only the explosion would be seen. Again, pure speculation.

Finally, as far as the video evidence is concerned, there is no hint of terminal active guidance since the target is a point on the ground. Hopefully, multiple tests have been conducted in parallel, including one at sea. Terminal guidance would be very important for targets at sea.

A creative use of the bomblet dispenser would be laying depth charges against enemy submarines on the way to the final target. If the enemy detects Raad II at a certain location, it should be extremely wary of what lies beneath the surface of any water body over which the missile may have travelled.

Finally, the beauty of the ALCM is that its range does not depend on propulsion system as much as it depends on the launch platform. This relieves Pakistani scientists from expensive research in turbo fans, and they can spend more time on safe separtion at supersonic speeds, flight control, lighter and stronger materials, etc. If the launch platform is also capable of AAR, it creates a whole different set of headaches for the enemy. With a creative use of fighters and transport aircraft, the entire Western coast of India is at risk. And if Pakistan is able to negotiate a base in Malaysia, the 'ring of pearls' shall be complete.

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## Bilal.

Cookie Monster said:


> But an ALCM has a lot of speed before launch, which would add to its range. An ALCM launched at high altitude and high speed can achieve a longer range than a similar sized cruise missile launched from standstill. Therefore even with a significant size difference between Raad and Babur...their ranges wouldn't be drastically different(as we see 600km for Raad and 750km I think for Babur).



That’s what the solid rocket booster does for Babur. Takes it to altitude and help it achieve high speed before the jet motor kicks in. 

For reference, please check Tomahawk range.

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## appliedfor

Can anyone share the Speed (MACH) of RAAD II ?


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> I think JH7 is now an even more mouthwatering prospect as a carrier of such systems.
> 
> I think KEPD 350 is based on a SA system!
> 
> 
> No the JH7B is new development that is undergoing final tests. It should have many structural improvements but not sure about the power plant upgrade.


JH-7 B has been cancelled. It's not in trials. It was cancelled for J-16

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## naahmad28

hussain0216 said:


> How is RAAD 2 different to RAAD 1?


1) Nose cone
2) Vertical stabilizers
3) Range


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## War Thunder

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Babur 2 LACM is with Navy. So it would mean that LACM is being used for Anti ship?



More like for launching against land targets from a Naval Asset.
Or for nuking enemy stationary or slow moving ship formations.

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> JH-7 B has been cancelled. It's not in trials. It was cancelled for J-16


Hazrat @Zarvan you have ruined the dreams of JH7 party

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## raja786

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you have ruined the dreams of JH7 party


I see jf17b more viable option for Raad¹¹.

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## blain2

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Dont forget the enemy AWAC
> 
> 
> Does it have Low Terrian flying Capability?
> 
> I hope Babur's Range is increased to 1000+ km now


Ra'ad II range covers ND. Eventually Pakistan will have LACM range to cover all of India iA.

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## Amavous

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230113659638210561

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> Hazrat @Zarvan you have ruined the dreams of JH7 party


I think @Deino can confirm that JH-7 B has been cancelled


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## Haris Ali2140

One more important thing about RAAD II is its signaling to India about the consequences of future misadventure.

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## krash

Shah_Deu said:


> _Defence News_ quoted Mansoor Ahmed, a Pakistan strategic analyst, as saying the Ra'ad-II was "Pakistan’s answer to India’s development of the Nirbhay cruise missile".



........Indian journalism again. Nirbhay is a failing attempt to answer Pakistani cruise missiles which have been in service for years.



Shah_Deu said:


> Pakistan's ability to hit targets in India has been largely limited to its fleet of ballistic missiles, the use of which could be considered a massive escalation in the event of even a non-nuclear conflict.



So Babur I, II, III and Ra'ad I were planning on sitting it out?




Shah_Deu said:


> Moreover, cruise missiles, which fly in the atmosphere like an jet airplane, are more accurate than ballistic missiles in hitting ground targets.



...........



seven0seven said:


> Why AWACS want to close in to enemy fighter, PL-15 has range of 150-200 km, ZDK-3 can easily guide PL-15 to its Extreme range



That might not be the best idea. Firstly, no one wants to launch A2A missiles at their max ranges, it decreases the probability of kill substantially. Secondly, 200 km is still pretty close in for an AWACS, we want them to stay as far away from any skirmishes as possible. What if one of the enemy's slips through? Thirdly, its better to leave the AWACS to focus on their primary job which is exponentially more important than downing a bird or two. Trying to down an enemy aircraft will surely reduce their capacity of performing their primary task to the best of their ability. Fourthly, the slower speeds and lower altitudes that AWACs operate at will decrease the max range of the PL-15.



StormBreaker said:


> I never liked the orange color tho. Looks like a sausage if you ask me, they should give it a silver/grey/black color similar to SOM of Turkey



We saw this example back in 2008.









Bilal. said:


> That’s what the solid rocket booster does for Babur. Takes it to altitude and help it achieve high speed before the jet motor kicks in.
> 
> For reference, please check Tomahawk range.



The boost phase doesn't really take it anywhere near those altitudes or those cruise speeds. Note in the first video where it levels out. The second video shows the moment when the booster is separated.










[/QUOTE]



Amavous said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230113659638210561



Someone please tell that expert that missile tests aren't always conducted with live warheads. "The warhead bounced off and then exploded"......must be made from Vibranium, naughty Pakistanis smuggling it out of Wakanda again. The explosion that we saw was the leftover fuel igniting. Babur III as an example,

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

krash said:


> Someone please tell that expert that the missile tests aren't exactly conducted with live warheads. The explosion that he saw was the leftover fuel igniting.


The Indian 'analysts' will always find something to whine and complain about when it comes to Pakistan.

The explosion was weird, the flight profile was weird! 

Why was it launched from an airplane?!

Why did the missile not fly backwards?! All Chinese missiles fly forwards which means this is 'Cheeni Maal'!

Ha! Pakistani Lies busted"

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## HRK

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> The Indian 'analysts' will always find something to whine and complain about when it comes to Pakistan.
> 
> The explosion was weird, the flight profile was weird!
> 
> Why was it launched from an airplane?!
> 
> Why did the missile not fly backwards?! All Chinese missiles fly forwards which means this is 'Cheeni Maal'!
> 
> Ha! Pakistani Lies busted"


enjoy .... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229874442895003651

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## krash

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> The Indian 'analysts' will always find something to whine and complain about when it comes to Pakistan.
> 
> The explosion was weird, the flight profile was weird!
> 
> Why was it launched from an airplane?!
> 
> Why did the missile not fly backwards?! All Chinese missiles fly forwards which means this is 'Cheeni Maal'!
> 
> Ha! Pakistani Lies busted"





HRK said:


> enjoy ....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229874442895003651




And then suddenly, just like that, all our weapons were rendered useless. Just don't go boom no more.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

blain2 said:


> Ra'ad II range covers ND. Eventually Pakistan will have LACM range to cover all of India iA.


I think the bigger impact is the possibility of deploying the Ra'ad series from the JF-17 -- the PAF would have many more launch platforms at its disposal for SOW/ALCM/AShM. That said, I do think a 1,000+ km ALCM will eventually come, especially if AWC is making headway in flight control, fuel management, and composites.

I would be as interested in seeing if Pakistan could come up with EW-equipped decoys and loyal wingman drones by leveraging the Ra'ad-II and AvRID's target drone programs. Even Integrated Dynamics is working on a larger next-generation target drone. We're getting closer.

So, in lieu of an off-the-shelf 4+/4.5-gen fighter, we could start investing in asymmetry in the air through drones. Not only would this make the JF-17 the lowest cost network+drone integration fighter with on the market, but it'd give a next-gen infrastructure for Project AZM to blend into right away.

The final step to all this would be a larger stealthy UAV (perhaps with AZM's technology) for high-risk deep-strike missions. Combined with drones and SOW/ALCMs, this capability would give the PAF immense flexibility.

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## Taimoor Khan

A heavy duty bomber carrying many of these beasts under her belly would be a sight to behold. One sortie would be enough to raise the whole new Delhi south block to ground.

One thing I keep on emphasising. Pakistani planners need to test these weapons with some HE explosives. Optics are very important in this day and age, adds to power projection. Need to up our game, and stop testing without warheads.

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## FuturePAF

raja786 said:


> I see jf17b more viable option for Raad¹¹.


Especially if the JF-17 engine upgrade comes through soon; Higher TWR and strengthened wings should help compensate for the heavier load.

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## Ultima Thule

FuturePAF said:


> Especially if the JF-17 engine upgrade comes through soon; Higher TWR and strengthened wings should help compensate for the heavier load.


You mean Block-3 sir?


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## blain2

HRK said:


> enjoy ....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229874442895003651


Its going to light up Gagan sahib's neighborhood all the same (regardless of it being Pak-Cheeni maal).

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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> Receiving mid-course updates about waypoints means there is no way for the enemy to extract the final destination from mission computers if the missile is captured intact. Coupled with unpredictable route and numerous possible enemy targets, enemy planners will certainly loose sleep over Raad II.


Negotiating way-points doesnt carry deviation of 50 km or 100 km, that enemy will not be able to determine Ra'ad's Target if it gets detected, thus high probability is there that enemy will get to know Ra'ad's target during mid-course as it will have its trajectory vectoring towards the target. The way points could be introduced for the ALCM to stay at edges of SAM radar coverage or blind spots of radar coverage and the launch platform will fire it as such from acceptable altitude and range.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Shah_Deu said:


> *Ra'ad-II cruise missile can hit Delhi from deep inside Pakistan: Report*
> Ra'ad-II reportedly features design changes, allowing more types of jets to carry it
> 
> Web Desk February 19, 2020 13:37 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screengrab of Ra'ad-II missile being launched from a Mirage-III/V fighter
> 
> Pakistan on Tuesday announced it had conducted a successful test of an air-launched cruise missile called the Ra'ad-II. The Inter Services Public Relations, the PR wing of the Pakistan military, released a statement on the Ra'ad-II test, noting that the weapon had a range of 600km. The Ra'ad-II cruise missile is a modernised version of the Ra'ad-I missile, which Pakistan first test-fired in 2007 and was claimed to have a range of 350km.
> 
> The Ra'ad-II was first unveiled at a military parade in 2017.
> 
> ISPR also shared a video of the Ra'ad-II cruise missile being launched off a French-built Mirage III/V fighter. The aircraft, which Pakistan has operated for over 50 years, was also used in testing the earlier Ra'ad-I missile. Interestingly, the Mirage-III/V jet was the aircraft Pakistan claimed to have used when it attempted to bomb an Indian Army facility on February 27 last year in retaliation for the Balakot air strike.
> 
> _Defence News_, a reputed defence website, on Tuesday, analysed the video footage of the Ra'ad-II test and speculated that the missile had been "entirely redesigned with a new intake and control surfaces".
> 
> The original Ra'ad-I missile had a 'twin tail' configuration, "but the Ra'ad-II appears to have adopted a more compact 'X' configuration layout", _Defence News_ reported. This would enable it to be carried on more aircraft, such as the JF-17 fighter, jointly developed by Pakistan and China. Pakistan has built more than 100 JF-17 jets and the type will be the mainstay of the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> _Quwa_, a Pakistani website covering Islamabad's military, claimed the design changes may have made the Ra'ad-II missile lighter, conceivably enabling it to be carried under the wings of the JF-17.
> 
> *Defence News also speculated that the "range increase would allow the missile to launch well within Pakistan’s territory while being able to hit critical targets within India—New Delhi is roughly 430 kilometers from Lahore.."*
> 
> The publication observed Pakistan's need for longer-range weapons has increased as India prepares to receive the Russian S-400 air defence system. Last week, the Donald Trump administration cleared the possible sale of a medium-range air defence missile system to India, which can shoot down targets such as aircraft and cruise missiles.
> 
> _Defence News_ quoted Mansoor Ahmed, a Pakistan strategic analyst, as saying the Ra'ad-II was "Pakistan’s answer to India’s development of the Nirbhay cruise missile". Pakistan's ability to hit targets in India has been largely limited to its fleet of ballistic missiles, the use of which could be considered a massive escalation in the event of even a non-nuclear conflict.
> 
> Moreover, cruise missiles, which fly in the atmosphere like an jet airplane, are more accurate than ballistic missiles in hitting ground targets.
> 
> *https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2...t-delhi-from-deep-inside-pakistan-report.html*


Fire from Lahore to hit Delhi!!! Historically speaking, Delhi's security lies in ruling over Lahore...

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## Mrc

HRK said:


> enjoy ....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229874442895003651




Warhead yield can be from sub kiloton to a 100 kilo tones ... what a moron...

Explosion is from left over fuel as dummy warhead does not explode

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## FuturePAF

seven0seven said:


> You mean Block-3 sir?



Separate from Block 3.

The Chinese are developing a much more powerful engine, which will be a game changer. The JF-17 with the higher Thrust to Weight Ratio will be able to perform nearly as well as the latest F-16.

Current Max Thrust on the JF-17's RD-93 is 85.3 KN (19,200 lb)
The Engine being developed is expected to reach nearly 100 kn as mentioned in the following link.
http://www.jf-17.com/engine/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder#Specifications_(JF-17_Block_2)

Eventually the goal is for the Engine to reach the Thrust of GE-414 highest thrust variant at 116 KN
For reference the PAF F-16s have a max thrust of 129.7 KN (29,160 lb)

F-16 Block 52 has a Thrust to weight of 1.095 (*1.24* with loaded weight & 50% internal fuel);
Thrust (28,600 lb) / Loaded weight with 50% internal fuel (23,000 lb)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gener...ing_Falcon#Specifications_(F-16C_Block_50/52)

If the JF-17 was in the same configuration (references from PAC: https://www.pac.org.pk/jf-17)
Empty weight is 14,520 lb, 50% internal fuel would be 2565 lb, 2 SD-10 and 2 PL-9 would be approx. 1300 lb. = 18,385 lb.

With the current engine at full afterburner (max thrust) Thrust to weight ratio would be 1.044, *with the 100 kn engine it would be 1.22*, and if reaching the GE414 level of 116 kn; TWR would be 1.41.
Realistically the plane would not be fly with just 2 BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles and half a tank of gas.
Max takeoff weight for the current configuration of the JF-17 is 27,300 lb; and at the GE414 level, TWR would be 0.95

If the JF-17 design could shave off some weight in the Block III design TWR could be at or even greater than 1.0 and still be able to carry the 3400 lb of weapons and external pods, allowing the plane to maintain maneuverability and nearly the full range of its flight envelope despite all the weapons and fuel it is carry.

Perhaps even with the more efficient engine, the plane could super cruise and have nearly the same range as the F-16.



Signalian said:


> Negotiating way-points doesnt carry deviation of 50 km or 100 km, that enemy will not be able to determine Ra'ad's Target if it gets detected, thus high probability is there that enemy will get to know Ra'ad's target during mid-course as it will have its trajectory vectoring towards the target. The way points could be introduced for the ALCM to stay at edges of SAM radar coverage or blind spots of radar coverage and the launch platform will fire it as such from acceptable altitude and range.



The Design will need to be refined to reduce its RCS, IR, Audio, and Electromagnetic Signatures similar to the MBDA designs. the missile could also be escorted by Jammer variants of the same cruise missile similar to the MALD-J concept. A few MALD-J escorting a large SALVO of RA'AD II to Delhi on a few low probability of intercept courses get through all the way through if there is a lot of confusion in the Indian C4ISR.; Cyber Attacks, EM clutter along the border, and potential mass hysteria through PSYOPS.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

FuturePAF said:


> A few MALD-J escorting a large SALVO of RA'AD II to Delhi on a few low probability of intercept courses get through all the way through if there is a lot of confusion in the Indian C4ISR.; Cyber Attacks, EM clutter along the border, and potential mass hysteria through PSYOPS.


You’ve almost re-enacted Panipat IV!!! The climax would be the be-heading of Modi/Shah/Doval/Yogi etc....

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## Pakistani Fighter

FuturePAF said:


> Separate from Block 3.
> 
> The Chinese are developing a much more powerful engine, which will be a game changer. The JF-17 with the higher Thrust to Weight Ratio will be able to perform nearly as well as the latest F-16.
> 
> Current Max Thrust on the JF-17's RD-93 is 85.3 KN (19,200 lb)
> The Engine being developed is expected to reach nearly 100 kn as mentioned in the following link.
> http://www.jf-17.com/engine/
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder#Specifications_(JF-17_Block_2)
> 
> Eventually the goal is for the Engine to reach the Thrust of GE-414 highest thrust variant at 116 KN
> For reference the PAF F-16s have a max thrust of 129.7 KN (29,160 lb)
> 
> F-16 Block 52 has a Thrust to weight of 1.095 (*1.24* with loaded weight & 50% internal fuel);
> Thrust (28,600 lb) / Loaded weight with 50% internal fuel (23,000 lb)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gener...ing_Falcon#Specifications_(F-16C_Block_50/52)
> 
> If the JF-17 was in the same configuration (references from PAC: https://www.pac.org.pk/jf-17)
> Empty weight is 14,520 lb, 50% internal fuel would be 2565 lb, 2 SD-10 and 2 PL-9 would be approx. 1300 lb. = 18,385 lb.
> 
> With the current engine at full afterburner (max thrust) Thrust to weight ratio would be 1.044, *with the 100 kn engine it would be 1.22*, and if reaching the GE414 level of 116 kn; TWR would be 1.41.
> Realistically the plane would not be fly with just 2 BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles and half a tank of gas.
> Max takeoff weight for the current configuration of the JF-17 is 27,300 lb; and at the GE414 level, TWR would be 0.95
> 
> If the JF-17 design could shave off some weight in the Block III design TWR could be at or even greater than 1.0 and still be able to carry the 3400 lb of weapons and external pods, allowing the plane to maintain maneuverability and nearly the full range of its flight envelope despite all the weapons and fuel it is carry.
> 
> Perhaps even with the more efficient engine, the plane could super cruise and have nearly the same range as the F-16.
> 
> 
> 
> The Design will need to be refined to reduce its RCS, IR, Audio, and Electromagnetic Signatures similar to the MBDA designs. the missile could also be escorted by Jammer variants of the same cruise missile similar to the MALD-J concept. A few MALD-J escorting a large SALVO of RA'AD II to Delhi on a few low probability of intercept courses get through all the way through if there is a lot of confusion in the Indian C4ISR.; Cyber Attacks, EM clutter along the border, and potential mass hysteria through PSYOPS.


Why don't we use composites to decrease the mass of the plane?


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## FuturePAF

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why don't we use composites to decrease the mass of the plane?



We do use some, but not as much as other 4th gen fighter use, due to costs. Block 3 is expected to use more composites than Block 2, and so performance should improve. when the 100 kn engine is used, Performance should also improve noticeably (17% increase in thrust could allow the carriage of two Ra'ad Missiles as each missile weighs around 2425 lb).

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## ARMalik

Lots of members mentioned Raad-2 being used against S-400. Why can't the PAF not use its *Anti-Radiation missiles *against S-400 instead?


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## Shabi1

ARMalik said:


> Lots of members mentioned Raad-2 being used against S-400. Why can't the PAF not use its *Anti-Radiation missiles *against S-400 instead?


Yes but Raad 2 has longer range, so gives more standoff range and safety.

Also CM-400AKG which is better than Israels Rampage missiles (their answer to S300/400) seem even better options.

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> Negotiating way-points doesnt carry deviation of 50 km or 100 km, that enemy will not be able to determine Ra'ad's Target if it gets detected, thus high probability is there that enemy will get to know Ra'ad's target during mid-course as it will have its trajectory vectoring towards the target. The way points could be introduced for the ALCM to stay at edges of SAM radar coverage or blind spots of radar coverage and the launch platform will fire it as such from acceptable altitude and range.



There is no set rule book which limits mission planning for a cruise missile. The classical literature has been shaped by the technical limitations of past decades. Ultra long endurance and mid-course corrections open up an entirely new set of possibilities which bring entirely new headaches for the enemy.


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## Khanivore

One good way to burn up an S-400 battery would be to send in a wave of Baburs and Ra'ads. Any major SAM threat could be exhausted using similar strategy followed by volley of loitering munitions that could search, ID and kill anything emitting radiation or thermal heat.


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## ziaulislam

ARMalik said:


> Lots of members mentioned Raad-2 being used against S-400. Why can't the PAF not use its *Anti-Radiation missiles *against S-400 instead?


Because the memebers over estimates the range of s400
Its common range is ~100km not the 200-300km often quoted 
Raad will never be used for that purpose

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## Pakistani Fighter

ziaulislam said:


> Because the memebers over estimates the range of s400
> Its common range is ~100km not the 200-300km often quoted
> Raad will never be used for that purpose


Its max range is 400km and its radar max range is 600km as said by some members here


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## ziaulislam

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Its max range is 400km and its raar max range is 600km as said by some members here


No its not
The max range around 250 ONLY WITH SEPCIAL MISSLE whoch india wont even buy more than 40-50.
The 400km missles is under trials 

Also radar range is irrelevant as it has different fire and control and detection radar..
Forget about low flying objects thats not even possible to detect early

The 40n6e missles hasnt been exported or verified by an independent expert

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> No its not
> The max range around 250 ONLY WITH SEPCIAL MISSLE whoch india wont even buy more than 40-50.
> The 400km missles is under trials
> 
> Also radar range is irrelevant as it has different fire and control and detection radar..
> Forget about low flying objects thats not even possible to detect early
> 
> The 40n6e missles hasnt been exported or verified by an independent expert



Big question is that, is 400km range missile good against small RCS birds like JFT and F-16 at max range? Because 400km range is said to be good against large birds e.g. AWACS, MPAs etc.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Basel said:


> 400km range is said to be good against large birds e.g. AWACS, MPAs etc.


Means our AWACs and Tankers are staying away from 400km of the launcher


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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> Big question is that, is 400km range missile good against small RCS birds like JFT and F-16 at max range? Because 400km range is said to be good against large birds e.g. AWACS, MPAs etc.


Well there is no 380km range missles YET. 
Even if there was one ..the fire contril solution will be tricky 
And even of they solve that the missles kill range will be still low and manuveribility bad

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## S.Y.A

ziaulislam said:


> No its not
> The max range around 250 ONLY WITH SEPCIAL MISSLE whoch india wont even buy more than 40-50.
> The 400km missles is under trials
> 
> Also radar range is irrelevant as it has different fire and control and detection radar..
> Forget about low flying objects thats not even possible to detect early
> 
> The 40n6e missles hasnt been exported or verified by an independent expert


whatever the max range is, it is the diagonal range. therefore not truly 200 or 300 or 400.

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## Basel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Means our AWACs and Tankers are staying away from 400km of the launcher



It depends what tactics and assets PAF will deploy against threat posed by India.


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## TsAr

ARMalik said:


> Lots of members mentioned Raad-2 being used against S-400. Why can't the PAF not use its *Anti-Radiation missiles *against S-400 instead?


Everyone is entitled to a viewpoint.....What weapon to use will depend upon the situation....Depending on the circumstances people who matter would decide how to counter s-400 or any other weapon...


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## Signalian

ARMalik said:


> Lots of members mentioned Raad-2 being used against S-400. Why can't the PAF not use its *Anti-Radiation missiles *against S-400 instead?





ziaulislam said:


> Because the memebers over estimates the range of s400
> Its common range is ~100km not the 200-300km often quoted
> Raad will never be used for that purpose


Ra'ad is used for D-EAD Ops, not exactly S-EAD Ops. ARM are primarily used for SEAD Ops, not DEAD Ops. If ARM serves its purpose to destroy radars, then Ra'ad might not be required to destroy SAM launchers.



CriticalThought said:


> There is no set rule book which limits mission planning for a cruise missile. The classical literature has been shaped by the technical limitations of past decades. Ultra long endurance and mid-course corrections open up an entirely new set of possibilities which bring entirely new headaches for the enemy.


Theoretically maybe, practically its yet to be seen.



Basel said:


> Big question is that, is 400km range missile good against small RCS birds like JFT and F-16 at max range? Because 400km range is said to be good against large birds e.g. AWACS, MPAs etc.


S-400 can also work on principles of ABM/ACM shield, to stop incoming BM/CM instead of just acting as a basic SAM.
As for the range, it will be a n EW/ECM tug of war. The further a target stays away from the radar (S-400 Radar), the difficult it is for the radar to track and lock it. The close the target moves to the Radar, it becomes easier for the radar to track,lock and fire on it. Similarly, its difficult to jam the S-400 Radar as the EW aircraft gets closer to it, since the transmitter power of S-400 radar would be higher than that of the EW aircraft jammer.

If PAF's AWACS, MPAs and Air-Refueller are with in Pakistan's airspace and protected by EW/ECM of AWACS or DA-20, as they will be receiving radar radiation of the S-400 radar and countering them through their own means and thwarting a lock onto PAF aircrafts, then PAF aircrafts are safe within own air space. F-16 have EW pods that can break locks.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Signalian said:


> F-16 have EW pods that can break locks.


And JF 17s?


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## raazh

The real question will be that how India will use its own air assets if and when S400 goes into hunting mode .. cz lets face it their record is abysmal .. at longer ranges it might prove to be more dangerous for India than Pakistan ..

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## Basel

Signalian said:


> Ra'ad is used for D-EAD Ops, not exactly S-EAD Ops. ARM are primarily used for SEAD Ops, not DEAD Ops. If ARM serves its purpose to destroy radars, then Ra'ad might not be required to destroy SAM launchers.
> 
> 
> Theoretically maybe, practically its yet to be seen.
> 
> 
> S-400 can also work on principles of ABM/ACM shield, to stop incoming BM/CM instead of just acting as a basic SAM.
> As for the range, it will be a n EW/ECM tug of war. The further a target stays away from the radar (S-400 Radar), the difficult it is for the radar to track and lock it. The close the target moves to the Radar, it becomes easier for the radar to track,lock and fire on it. Similarly, its difficult to jam the S-400 Radar as the EW aircraft gets closer to it, since the transmitter power of S-400 radar would be higher than that of the EW aircraft jammer.
> 
> If PAF's AWACS, MPAs and Air-Refueller are with in Pakistan's airspace and protected by EW/ECM of AWACS or DA-20, as they will be receiving radar radiation of the S-400 radar and countering them through their own means and thwarting a lock onto PAF aircrafts, then PAF aircrafts are safe within own air space. F-16 have EW pods that can break locks.



JFT also have self protection jammer / EW capabilities, block-3 will enhance it, also Ground based Radars and EW systems will play their role so situation is not as bad as many here pose it.

MALD type system should be developed for penetrating advance Air Defense systems, it can also allow other assets and munitions to go through enemy defenses.

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## Signalian

Basel said:


> JFT also have self protection jammer / EW capabilities, block-3 will enhance it


Details of these ?



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> And JF 17s?


Not that im undermining JFT, but the whole system in place supports the aircraft and the Ops.


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## Basel

Signalian said:


> Details of these ?
> 
> 
> Not that im undermining JFT, but the whole system in place supports the aircraft and the Ops.



Do you think PA and PAF will share those in public?? Did PA ever mentioned in public that they had installed EW equipment on Mi-17 and had sent it near border to collect data??

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## Gripen9

One significant change made is to the air intake. Used to be a complex retractable mechanism which has been changed to fixed version. Which has resulted in lower weight and volume inside the body that is being used for fuel now extending the range. Otherwise the body dimensions are essentially same.

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## Signalian

Basel said:


> Do you think PA and PAF will share those in public?? Did PA ever mentioned in public that they had installed EW equipment on Mi-17 and had sent it near border to collect data??


It has more to do with Chinese origin EW, where as USA made pods are public, even if PAF doesn't publicize them.

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> Theoretically maybe, practically its yet to be seen.



Modern wars are won by those who make the theoretical, even the seemingly improbable or impractical, possible. I wish to see Pakistani Armed Forces developing new technology that keeps the enemy on its toes.

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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> Modern wars are won by those who make the theoretical, even the seemingly improbable or impractical, possible. I wish to see Pakistani Armed Forces developing new technology that keeps the enemy on its toes.


That is analogous to R&D. 

If there is R&D occurring on such level in Pak Unis or collaboration with foreign support, its possible.

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> That is analogous to R&D.
> 
> If there is R&D occurring on such level in Pak Unis or collaboration with foreign support, its possible.



R&D doesn't happen in isolation. It is the job of army personnel to understand the current bleeding edge of technology and the possibilities it creates for warfare, then propose a new world of possibilities that give them the edge against the enemy. Only then R&D is engaged to realize those possibilities through technology. Otherwise you are asking researchers to wage the war for you.


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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> R&D doesn't happen in isolation. It is the job of army personnel to understand the current bleeding edge of technology and the possibilities it creates for warfare, then propose a new world of possibilities that give them the edge against the enemy. Only then R&D is engaged to realize those possibilities through technology. Otherwise you are asking researchers to wage the war for you.


From your post it seems either you don't understand R&D through educational institutions or you have no idea about military R&D at all. Perhaps you don't understand - Research.

The Pakistan Military has its own institutions of R&D and also outsources projects to organizations and universities. R&D works both ways; Military hands out its own parameters, Defense organizations are sent those requirements, who in their capacity either can start designing them or with the hep of military set up certain syndicates who are assigned to start a research project on them. At this point, different universities like NUST for example come in. NUST is an amalgamation of uniformed and civilian cadres, who work for the defense branches of the Military domain. NUST has affiliated itself with all the educational defense institutions. Next there are local contractor companies, who directly or indirectly work in the R&D sector for the Military. On the other hand, researchers themselves can propose projects which could align with the military. These can be funded by educational institutions in which the Research will be conducted. The aim of a researcher is to enhance current body of knowledge. In doing so, research never goes wasted. It becomes a citation for a different project which may share similarities in certain aspects. Under some sensitive conditions, the secrecy of a research does become important and has been happening in many different countries especially in the nuclear domain, however research has been centralized to a larger capacity than decades ago where confidentiality was important, at least till the end product was in sight. Military R&D in all countries demanded some sort of secrecy. Even back then researchers of same field, working day and night together, had a lot of exposure to material which was not publicly available. Research and Development itself has been revolutionized now in this modern century, whether in Military or civilian applications.

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> From your post it seems either you don't understand R&D through educational institutions or you have no idea about military R&D at all. Perhaps you don't understand - Research.



That's a bit rich coming from someone who thinks the F-16 is a dog, and F-14, F-15, SU-30 were built for BVR combat or 'heavy strike roles':

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-un-intended-eye-opener-of-27th-feb.609124/page-27#post-11303247

and that an effective counter against Brahmos is a CIWS. Your posts show you are clueless about aerial warfare.



Signalian said:


> The Pakistan Military has its own institutions of R&D and also outsources projects to organizations and universities. R&D works both ways; Military hands out its own parameters, Defense organizations are sent those requirements, who in their capacity either can start designing them or with the hep of military set up certain syndicates who are assigned to start a research project on them. At this point, different universities like NUST for example come in. NUST is an amalgamation of uniformed and civilian cadres, who work for the defense branches of the Military domain. NUST has affiliated itself with all the educational defense institutions. Next there are local contractor companies, who directly or indirectly work in the R&D sector for the Military. On the other hand, researchers themselves can propose projects which could align with the military. These can be funded by educational institutions in which the Research will be conducted. The aim of a researcher is to enhance current body of knowledge. In doing so, research never goes wasted. It becomes a citation for a different project which may share similarities in certain aspects. Under some sensitive conditions, the secrecy of a research does become important and has been happening in many different countries especially in the nuclear domain, however research has been centralized to a larger capacity than decades ago where confidentiality was important, at least till the end product was in sight. Military R&D in all countries demanded some sort of secrecy. Even back then researchers of same field, working day and night together, had a lot of exposure to material which was not publicly available. Research and Development itself has been revolutionized now in this modern century, whether in Military or civilian applications.



Stop arguing against your ownself and confusing yourself to a point you go off on a tangent. We are discussing why Pakistan Army cannot employ a 600 km range Raad in a manner that conceals the final target in case the missile is intercepted mid course. Stop making excuses and stop derailing the thread with useless rants.


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## Basel

Signalian said:


> It has more to do with Chinese origin EW, where as USA made pods are public, even if PAF doesn't publicize them.



Did PAF published what European EW they are using??


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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> That's a bit rich coming from someone who thinks the F-16 is a dog, and F-14, F-15, SU-30 were built for BVR combat or 'heavy strike roles':
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-un-intended-eye-opener-of-27th-feb.609124/page-27#post-11303247
> 
> and that an effective counter against Brahmos is a CIWS. Your posts show you are clueless about aerial warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop arguing against your ownself and confusing yourself to a point you go off on a tangent. We are discussing why Pakistan Army cannot employ a 600 km range Raad in a manner that conceals the final target in case the missile is intercepted mid course. Stop making excuses and stop derailing the thread with useless rants.



Ok, you are getting back at me with older posts because i said you dont know anything about R&D, well you don't know about R&D and that is a fact, but all is not lost, since you can learn here on PDF, if you dont have any other channel of learning, which seems to be the case from your posts. 

F-16 has proved itself and CIWS are there for a reason, if you cant accept that, then maybe you need to learn about weapon systems also. 

As for R&D, I had a hunch you won't get what I will be saying that you dwell on your ego, not on logic, not on reason, which is actually critical in a learning curve, but let me not give you that lesson, your posts are a testimony to that already. I have explained the R&D concept of Pak Military since I have been associated with that institution. Yours are general comments not specific information, sorry to say but yours are more like to increase post count with no worthwhile information.



Basel said:


> Did PAF published what European EW they are using??


Much of European systems are also published online already, just like american.

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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> You have no idea how much I actually know about both civilian and military R&D in Pakistan. But unlike you:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/systems-took-kit-stk-has-anybody-worked-on-this-program.653062/
> 
> I don't provide R&AW with my calling card so they can congratulate me personally for a job well done. Stop your attempts at sabre rattling like Raj from 'The Big Bang Theory':
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 607561


Saying that you "know" about something and unable to prove it or show it in posts are two very different things 

If a post is to be made about a certain topic, then there is enough solid material in that post which gives information or shows a certain mechanism or structure for the readers. You mentioned mid course, i corrected you about it. Then you yourself mentioned R&D, i again showed you how R&D is conducted in Pakistan Military, since yours was a general idea.

Now since you had no reply to both the topics, which you actually brought up yourself, after which you then accused me of de-railing the thread, where as i was merely replying you. In the next post that you reply me, you start to post pictures/videos about which this thread has no concern with. So I would suggest you to have a look who is de-railing the thread and who is making rants here.

You are proving me right again and again about you and your posts  You actually mention one of my post to which you might disagree but i have been given Positive ratings so my contribution was worthwhile. See this is what your ego makes you do, it has the tendency to turn you blind at a certain point where you dont even know what and why your are giving references. I don't feel the need to explain myself to you. You should read more into mid course as well as R&D.

I have now seen that you have nothing worthwhile to contribute anymore on the topic, so have the last word if you want for your own personal satisfaction. I have yet to see if you have anything significant to contribute.

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> Saying that you "know" about something and unable to prove it or show it in posts are two very different things
> 
> If a post is to be made about a certain topic, then there is enough solid material in that post which gives information or shows a certain mechanism or structure for the readers. You mentioned mid course, i corrected you about it. Then you yourself mentioned R&D, i again showed you how R&D is conducted in Pakistan Military, since yours was a general idea.
> 
> Now since you had no reply to both the topics, which you actually brought up yourself, after which you then accused me of de-railing the thread, where as i was merely replying you. In the next post that you reply me, you start to post pictures/videos about which this thread has no concern with. So I would suggest you to have a look who is de-railing the thread and who is making rants here.
> 
> You are proving me right again and again about you and your posts  You actually mention one of my post to which you might disagree but i have been given Positive ratings so my contribution was worthwhile. See this is what your ego makes you do, it has the tendency to turn you blind at a certain point where you dont even know what and why your are giving references. I don't feel the need to explain myself to you. You should read more into mid course as well as R&D.
> 
> I have now seen that you have nothing worthwhile to contribute anymore on the topic, so have the last word if you want for your own personal satisfaction. I have yet to see if you have anything significant to contribute.



Your positive ratings show the abysmal level of the forum in general. See, that's what lack of training does to you.

I haven't written anything 'substantive' about mid course, because you haven't corrected me yet. So how about you drop the attitude and express your exact thoughts on mid course. And before you do, you might want to search google scholar about 'cruise missile mid course correction' and 'cruise missile data link' where you might find a lot of research output from our Chinese friends, and american military articles assessing it as a threat.


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## Signalian

Riz said:


> Can we used AWACS to carry PL-15, Babur & RAAD???


The concept of Bomb truck for a large dimensional aircraft is there, however AWACS has a very important task of its own. Its a force multiplier being "eyes in the sky" and a redundant command in the air.



Shah_Deu said:


> *Defence News also speculated that the "range increase would allow the missile to launch well within Pakistan’s territory while being able to hit critical targets within India—New Delhi is roughly 430 kilometers from Lahore.."*


Politically, this can be given out as a statement and is possible in reality too however, there will be military targets of interest also side by side before any other targets are considered.

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## Basel

Signalian said:


> Ok, you are getting back at me with older posts because i said you dont know anything about R&D, well you don't know about R&D and that is a fact, but all is not lost, since you can learn here on PDF, if you dont have any other channel of learning, which seems to be the case from your posts.
> 
> F-16 has proved itself and CIWS are there for a reason, if you cant accept that, then maybe you need to learn about weapon systems also.
> 
> As for R&D, I had a hunch you won't get what I will be saying that you dwell on your ego, not on logic, not on reason, which is actually critical in a learning curve, but let me not give you that lesson, your posts are a testimony to that already. I have explained the R&D concept of Pak Military since I have been associated with that institution. Yours are general comments not specific information, sorry to say but yours are more like to increase post count with no worthwhile information.
> 
> 
> Much of European systems are also published online already, just like american.



Really, I doubt many system came in spot light which Pakistan went for. Pakistani military wants things not to be publicized like many posters think, they prefer ambiguity about certain stuff, that is why DG ISPR said we will always surprise you.

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## Dubious

CriticalThought said:


> I wish to see Pakistani Armed Forces developing new technology that keeps the enemy on its toes.


You exhibited a wish and You further express your wish


CriticalThought said:


> It is the job of army personnel to understand the current bleeding edge of technology and the possibilities it creates for warfare, then propose a new world of possibilities that give them the edge against the enemy.


Our TT gave you the setting in Pakistan


and you choose to mock it. May I know why?

@Irfan Baloch kindly intervene

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## CriticalThought

Dubious said:


> You exhibited a wish and You further express your wish
> 
> Our TT gave you the setting in Pakistan
> 
> 
> and you choose to mock it. May I know why?
> 
> @Irfan Baloch kindly intervene



Go back and re-read the post by your TT. He has rephrased what I said, and thus argued against himself, because earlier he placed the entire burden on the presence of R&D in Pakistani universities and foreign collaboration, thus absolving the Army proper of any responsibility to improve their own game.

And while you are at it, kindly notice the TT's jeering and demeaning behavior. He seems to be missing an _'eye'_ in the middle.


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## Dubious

CriticalThought said:


> Go back and re-read the post by your TT. He has rephrased what I said, and thus argued against himself, because earlier he placed the entire burden on the presence of R&D in Pakistani universities and foreign collaboration, thus absolving the Army proper of any responsibility to improve their own game.
> 
> And while you are at it, kindly notice the TT's jeering and demeaning behavior. He seems to be missing an _'eye'_ in the middle.


I shall leave it to @Irfan Baloch and @waz to have a second look

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## SQ8

As an observation. If two members are unable to convince each other on the merits of their technical arguments, they should agree to disagree and move on instead of descending into a egoistic cock fight.

Everyone else will decide the value of either parties posts themselves and gauge accordingly.

Trying to defend an anonymous online contribution on a subject as a matter of personal respect is the most foolish act in my opinion.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Not a single clear picture of the missile.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Socra said:


> As an observation. If two members are unable to convince each other on the merits of their technical arguments, they should agree to disagree and move on instead of descending into a egoistic cock fight.
> 
> Everyone else will decide the value of either parties posts themselves and gauge accordingly.
> 
> Trying to defend an anonymous online contribution on a subject as a matter of personal respect is the most foolish act in my opinion.


Agreed. It's best to make your point, and move on. If you truly believe in the authenticity of your statements, then moving on is the wisest move -- the reality of the truth will not change.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Not a single clear picture of the missile.


This missile is like _Hazret-i Azrail_ (AS) for the folks who'd face it!!! They see it to be dead...

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## MastanKhan

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why don't we use composites to decrease the mass of the plane?



Hi,

Composites are very expensive first of all---then their operational life is not that great---they are extremely maintenance extensive---cracks underneath the skin are not visible---. Delamination is another problem---

Enjoy the read in the link---.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...ome..69i57.14863j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

At the end of the day aluminum skin maybe fine for the JF17---but composite material on the JF17 would teach mechanics of future issues with the composite material.



Path-Finder said:


> I think JH7 is now an even more mouthwatering prospect as a carrier of such systems.
> 
> I think KEPD 350 is based on a SA system!
> 
> 
> No the JH7B is new development that is undergoing final tests. It should have many structural improvements but not sure about the power plant upgrade.



Hi,

It is JH7A---it is still a younger aircraft---I believe came to service in 2004---.

The chinese got carried away showing off their new found technology building capabilities and they forgot the fundamentals and basics---the flight characteristics of an aircraft---the purpose and utility of an aircraft---.

The J16 is a great aircraft on its own merits---but cannot compete with the Jh7A's on low flight missions over ground or over the water---.

The primary utility of both the aircraft is different---. The JH7 built on the F111 Aardvark minus the swing wing---the J16 an off shoot of the SU27's---.

So no comparison---.

It is just like the US military vs US congress----.

Military---what do you like---the A10

Congress---what do you like---the F35.



Socra said:


> As an observation. If two members are unable to convince each other on the merits of their technical arguments, they should agree to disagree and move on instead of descending into a egoistic cock fight.
> 
> Everyone else will decide the value of either parties posts themselves and gauge accordingly.
> 
> Trying to defend an anonymous online contribution on a subject as a matter of personal respect is the most foolish act in my opinion.



Hi,

(when I use the term 'you' over here---it is a term in general and not directed at 'you')

Cock fights are good fights---. " The Eagle" knows that they are useful---don't you 'Eagle'---.

It gets the best information out of people---. They should happen more often and more frequently---.

That is how the information gets leaked out---.

But sometimes when I leak the actual information out in front of you and you start to make fun of me because your level of intelligence / intellect reaches just upto someone's knees---so then how to face it and what can be done about it---.

I have laid out the truth on the paper---but if have not been to room AB 9501 in area 51 how would you understand that what I am saying is the whole truth and nothing but the truth---.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Composites are very expensive first of all---then their operational life is not that great---they are extremely maintenance extensive---cracks underneath the skin are not visible---. Delamination is another problem---
> 
> Enjoy the read in the link---.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=how...ome..69i57.14863j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
> 
> At the end of the day aluminum skin maybe fine for the JF17---but composite material on the JF17 would teach mechanics of future issues with the composite material.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It is JH7A---it is still a younger aircraft---I believe came to service in 2004---.
> 
> The chinese got carried away showing off their new found technology building capabilities and they forgot the fundamentals and basics---the flight characteristics of an aircraft---the purpose and utility of an aircraft---.
> 
> The J16 is a great aircraft on its own merits---but cannot compete with the Jh7A's on low flight missions over ground or over the water---.
> 
> The primary utility of both the aircraft is different---. The JH7 built on the F111 Aardvark minus the swing wing---the J16 an off shoot of the SU27's---.
> 
> So no comparison---.
> 
> It is just like the US military vs US congress----.
> 
> Military---what do you like---the A10
> 
> Congress---what do you like---the F35.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> (when I use the term 'you' over here---it is a term in general and not directed at 'you')
> 
> Cock fights are good fights---. " The Eagle" knows that they are useful---don't you 'Eagle'---.
> 
> It gets the best information out of people---. They should happen more often and more frequently---.
> 
> That is how the information gets leaked out---.
> 
> But sometimes when I leak the actual information out in front of you and you start to make fun of me because your level of intelligence / intellect reaches just upto someone's knees---so then how to face it and what can be done about it---.
> 
> I have laid out the truth on the paper---but if have not been to room AB 9501 in area 51 how would you understand that what I am saying is the whole truth and nothing but the truth---.


—-so help you god.

As I said before hazrat, you can seek these tiny gains for your ego and Mubarak ; Im happier getting recognition from actual people sitting in the mahogany lane of Schneider.
The members of this forum are better served to focus on this place as a haven for constructive discussions and learning- and keep their self valuation focused on their careers and character.
A character that encourages mutual respect and understanding along with agreeing to disagree.. instead of ignorant insecure people looking for cock fights.

And it seems Area 51 doesn’t pay as well either so I have no interest in going on a Trip and ending up in dreamland.

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## MastanKhan

Socra said:


> —-so help you god.
> 
> As I said before hazrat, you can seek these tiny gains for your ego and Mubarak ; Im happier getting recognition from actual people sitting in the mahogany lane of Schneider.
> The members of this forum are better served to focus on this place as a haven for constructive discussions and learning- and keep their self valuation focused on their careers and character.
> A character that encourages mutual respect and understanding along with agreeing to disagree.. instead of ignorant insecure people looking for cock fights.
> 
> And it seems Area 51 doesn’t pay as well either so I have no interest in going on a Trip and ending up in dreamland.



Hi,

It would have been better to have understood the post---.

It was not meant for you---and it was not me that made 'those' statements---.

Those were comments based on 'anyone's comments on the internet' in general'---.


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## araz

Signalian said:


> From your post it seems either you don't understand R&D through educational institutions or you have no idea about military R&D at all. Perhaps you don't understand - Research.
> 
> The Pakistan Military has its own institutions of R&D and also outsources projects to organizations and universities. R&D works both ways; Military hands out its own parameters, Defense organizations are sent those requirements, who in their capacity either can start designing them or with the hep of military set up certain syndicates who are assigned to start a research project on them. At this point, different universities like NUST for example come in. NUST is an amalgamation of uniformed and civilian cadres, who work for the defense branches of the Military domain. NUST has affiliated itself with all the educational defense institutions. Next there are local contractor companies, who directly or indirectly work in the R&D sector for the Military. On the other hand, researchers themselves can propose projects which could align with the military. These can be funded by educational institutions in which the Research will be conducted. The aim of a researcher is to enhance current body of knowledge. In doing so, research never goes wasted. It becomes a citation for a different project which may share similarities in certain aspects. Under some sensitive conditions, the secrecy of a research does become important and has been happening in many different countries especially in the nuclear domain, however research has been centralized to a larger capacity than decades ago where confidentiality was important, at least till the end product was in sight. Military R&D in all countries demanded some sort of secrecy. Even back then researchers of same field, working day and night together, had a lot of exposure to material which was not publicly available. Research and Development itself has been revolutionized now in this modern century, whether in Military or civilian applications.


Thank you for a very informative post. I fully agree that the educationsl institutions need to form the core of research which maybe nonsensitive and broad based. The defence sector might then amalgamate the lessons learnt into more sensitive domains. However this requires time, money, effort and sincerity. Having been out of the country for nearly 3 decades I do not know what the current status is and whether people are still studying so they can run abroad to greener pastures for more lucrative jobs. I know of a few people who were picked up by scouts from UK and went to Isloo and did a lot of productive work both for general and defence sectors. As long as there are decent jobs and environment available people will keep coming and sharing the learning. However this needs a very open and competitive culture where you are valued based on the results you generate. Even short tenure employment maybe of help. 
A

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## Safriz

I guess I won the bragging rights.
Look closely at the model. It shows a lot.

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## Windjammer

We tested R'had-2 and released a video of it....so what's the big revelations here.


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## Clutch

شاھین میزایل said:


> I guess I won the bragging rights.
> Look closely at the model. It shows a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 613871



Looks like a drone or a cruise missile


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## Safriz

Clutch said:


> Looks like a drone or a cruise missile


Buddy..
This is a screenshot from Raad-2 test video, so definitely not a drone



Windjammer said:


> We tested R'had-2 and released a video of it....so what's the big revelations here.


Actual shape and similarity with SCALP.
Also the video was from a potato cam.
At the end of the video was this "Big reveal".
Watch the video I posted.



StormBreaker said:


> Bahria town mein corner, road facing plot apka hoaa...


Shut up and jog off.
Don't krap in my thread.

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## Windjammer

شاھین میزایل said:


> Actual shape and similarity with SCALP.
> Also the video was from a potato cam.
> At the end of the video was this "Big reveal".
> Watch the video I posted.


Why imagine and compare models when you have the actual product at hand which looks nothing like the SCALP.

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## Safriz

MBDA SCALP / Storm shadow , comparison with Raad-2 model as held by the Pilot.



Windjammer said:


> Why imagine and compare models when you have the actual product at hand which looks nothing like the SCALP.
> 
> 
> View attachment 613876


It does actually.
Two sideways angled wings at the top.
Elongated air intake which goes almost to the midsection. These are same as SCALP.


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## YeBeWarned

شاھین میزایل said:


> Shut up and jog off.
> Don't krap in my thread.



relax he was just joking ..

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## Safriz

Starlord said:


> relax he was just joking ..


I wasn't

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## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> Bahria town mein corner, road facing plot apka hoaa...


Not like SCALP but if you closer look its more resemble US AGM-129 stealth advance cruise missile with conventional wings

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## crankthatskunk

@waz what is happening here!! 
Too many times, i was blocked from participating on threads because I disagreed on point of principles with some "Chosen ones" on this forum. 
Here we are seeing an open shouting match of obscenities, without any actions.


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## Safriz

crankthatskunk said:


> @waz what is happening here!!
> Too many times, i was blocked from participating on threads because I disagreed on point of principles with some "Chosen ones" on this forum.
> Here we are seeing an open shouting match of obscenities, without any actions.


Please take your complaints to GHQ section and stop posting useless offtopic comments

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## crankthatskunk

شاھین میزایل said:


> Please take your complaints to GHQ section and stop posting useless offtopic comments


 
Are you going insane because you opened this thread!! Come on mate, it is a free forum, don't be so silly, let people comment, resist to answer everyone back. We all have freedom of expressing our opinions.


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## graphican

@Rafi, @شاھین میزایل,

Brothers our Ehlaaq (احلاق) is our fragrance and reveal to the world what we are within. The fragrance coming out of a rose tells you it came from a rose and the fragrance coming out of an orange tells you it came from an orange. Likewise whatever comes out of us (our Ehlaaq) tells the world who we are within.

I request you to tolerate each other and forgive each other. May Allah be happy with you for this act.

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## graphican

شاھین میزایل said:


> View attachment 613877
> 
> 
> MBDA SCALP / Storm shadow , comparison with Raad-2 model as held by the Pilot.
> 
> 
> It does actually.
> Two sideways angled wings at the top.
> Elongated air intake which goes almost to the midsection. These are same as SCALP.
> 
> View attachment 613878



This model looks something like this. It appears to be different from Raad-II.

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