# EDEX 2018: Egypt eyes JF-17 Thunder Block-III



## The SC

*JF-17 Thunder Block-III Draws Interest from Egyptian Air Force. 
*






5th December 2018 - 16:50 GMT | by Alan Warnes in Cairo

The Egyptian Air Force (EAF) is currently reviewing the progress of the PAC/Chengdu JF-17 Thunder.

At EDEX 2018 in Cairo, _Shephard_ has learnt that representatives from the EAF held a meeting with AVIC officials at Zhuhai Air Show in early November.


Officials were provided with a progress..


https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-notes/egypt-eyes-jf-17-thunder-block-3s/

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## ziaulislam

I though saudis were financing the rafales and migs were being given from Russia ..
Why jf17 ..odd


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## The SC



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## Oublious

Pakistan should forget Arab countries, they will never buy. I am for 6 years reading stuf about JF17, each time some Arab country talks about the fighter, and after that you hear nothing for 1 or 2 years. Againg a defence exhibition and same JF-17 with big letters, result is like before zero.

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## war&peace

Oublious said:


> Pakistan should forget Arab countries, they will never buy. I am for 6 years reading stuf about JF17, each time some Arab country talks about the fighter, and after that you hear nothing for 1 or 2 years. Againg a defence exhibition and same JF-17 with big letters, result is like before zero.


No need for such a negative approach regardless of your political difference. It is not their fault. Before block-III, JF17 was not that attractive package especially when they could afford to buy Rafales, F16, F15, EFT and other superior A/C..However JF17Blk-III is a game changer because it packs quite a lot of advanced systems in a small package that is maintainable, cheaper to buy and operate.. That means the pilots can fly more hours and get much better relationship with the machine which is an asset for any airforce. Thus, buying JF17 block-III makes a lot of economic and pragmatic sense.

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## MastanKhan

Oublious said:


> Pakistan should forget Arab countries, they will never buy. I am for 6 years reading stuf about JF17, each time some Arab country talks about the fighter, and after that you hear nothing for 1 or 2 years. Againg a defence exhibition and same JF-17 with big letters, result is like before zero.



Hi,

The reason is that the JF17 has not reached a stable tier 1 EW package---. 

The BLK3 would reflect that stage---.

The air forces which have ordered the JF17---are satisfied with the BLK2 package---.

Egypt---which already is flying Rafales---would want something extra ordinary---. Only time will tell if JF17 BLK3 meets its requirements---.

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## Beast

ziaulislam said:


> I though saudis were financing the rafales and migs were being given from Russia ..
> Why jf17 ..odd


The egypt may want to acquire more advance aircraft production method. They do this with K-8.

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## Maxpane

Hope they buy it . This time it should not be rumour

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Hopefully. JF-17 is good replacement for J-7.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason is that the JF17 has not reached a stable tier 1 EW package---.
> 
> The BLK3 would reflect that stage---.
> 
> The air forces which have ordered the JF17---are satisfied with the BLK2 package---.
> 
> Egypt---which already is flying Rafales---would want something extra ordinary---. Only time will tell if JF17 BLK3 meets its requirements---.


Quantity is quality in its own right. With the Block-III, the EAF has an opportunity to supplant scores of old aircraft with a cheap AESA radar-equipped fighter with relatively good A2A and A2G capabilities. If even the JF-17 can lob ALCMs, AShMs and BVRAAMs, then the Rafale can be preserved for much more complex strike roles (e.g., OCA or DEAD).

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Quantity is quality in its own right. With the Block-III, the EAF has an opportunity to supplant scores of old aircraft with a cheap AESA radar-equipped fighter with relatively good A2A and A2G capabilities. If even the JF-17 can lob ALCMs, AShMs and BVRAAMs, then the Rafale can be preserved for much more complex strike roles (e.g., OCA or DEAD).



Hi,

Cheap is the wrong term to be used for a product that you publicize yourself thru your writings---.

There is no such thing as 'cheap' and capable---. No 'cheap' product is a capable product---.

A quality product is a capable product---. The JF17 is a quality product---.

The only reason it is less expensive is because the labor costs are extremely low---and I know that you know that---.

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## JohnWick

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Cheap is the wrong term to be used for a product that you publicize yourself thru your writings---.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'cheap' and capable---. No 'cheap' product is a capable product---.
> 
> A quality product is a capable product---. The JF17 is a quality product---.
> 
> The only reason it is less expensive is because the labor costs are extremely low---and I know that you know that---.


Sir can we do an analogy of jft with 
Suzuki Mehran/800.


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## Chimgathar

I dont understand Egyptian Air Force operates F-16, mirage 2000, Mig-29-35, soon Rafales, why they need JF-17?
Although Mig-29, Mig-35 share engine variants similar to JF-17 engine, it could be a reason.

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## Maxpane

@The SC your thoughts sir


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## Imran Khan

come on man not again . thanks just forget


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## khanasifm

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-notes/edex-2018-weaponised-jets-proving-challenge-egypt/

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## Kompromat

EAF F-16s are handicapped.

AESA/BVRAAM gap persists

Rafale/Migs are expensive to operate

Mirages, Mig21s need replacement.

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## MastanKhan

JohnWick said:


> Sir can we do an analogy of jft with
> Suzuki Mehran/800.





Chimgathar said:


> I dont understand Egyptian Air Force operates F-16, mirage 2000, Mig-29-35, soon Rafales, why they need JF-17?
> Although Mig-29, Mig-35 share engine variants similar to JF-17 engine, it could be a reason.



Hi,

The F16's are not true bvr capable---sanctions electronic sabotage at times of war---.

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## Maxpane

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The F16's are not true bvr capable---sanctions electronic sabotage at times of war---.


Sir do you believe we will get order from egypt this time?

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## MastanKhan

Maxpane said:


> Sir do you believe we will get order from egypt this time?



Hi,

It all depends on the total package---.

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## Maxpane

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It all depends on the total package---.


Hm . Thank you sir for your reply


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## JohnWick

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The F16's are not true bvr capable---sanctions electronic sabotage at times of war---.


Sir.
Analogy k nahi btaya apne....


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## 50cent

e

For last 4 years threads of jf17 sales to azrbijan are running but it never happened



Only cash strapped nations like niageria burma in future afghanistan would go for this plane because they cant afford modern planes like f15 rafales my honest review all over world airforce select superior technolgy to be one step ahead of opposition

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Cheap is the wrong term to be used for a product that you publicize yourself thru your writings---.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'cheap' and capable---. No 'cheap' product is a capable product---.
> 
> A quality product is a capable product---. The JF17 is a quality product---.
> 
> The only reason it is less expensive is because the labor costs are extremely low---and I know that you know that---.


'Cheap' certainly means ''capable' when -- instead of useless pedantry and noise -- we remember that the JF-17 and its subsystems are being compared to others that are 2x, 3x or even 4x the cost, yet fulfill the same functions and results in most air warfare scenarios. If you think 'cheap' is being used in isolation of all that context, then you haven't been paying attention.

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## 50cent

@MMM-E 
If this is true regardiing azerbijan i guess samctions are going to stop azerbijan deal but i highly doubt it

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## MMM-E

50cent said:


> If this is true regardiing azerbijan i guess samctions are going to stop azerbijan deal but i highly doubt it



Western Countries and Russia dont sell modern Fighter Jets to Azerbaijan .. because of power balance between Azerbaijan and Armenia

Azerbaijan bought second hand MIG-29s from Ukraine

and Azerbaijan is preparing order for JF-17 Block III standart from Pakistan to replace MIG21s

-- Advanced avionics , datalink 
-- Italian Vixen 1000E AESA Radar 
-- Turkish ASELPOD Targeting Pod
-- Turkish guided munitions
-- Turkish SOM Cruise Missile

also Azerbaijan is close to signing a deal to buy ASTER 30 SAMP/T and VL MICA Air Defense Systems

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## The SC

Maxpane said:


> @The SC your thoughts sir


I think it is possible, since Egypt needs to replace 100s of old platforms..and that there is no smoke without fire!
The Migs 29/35 and the Rafales are not in big numbers.. they are 70 in total now..Egypt wants to upgrade a good number of its F-16s to the Viper version, and that might be why it is postponing everything else..

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## Maxpane

The SC said:


> I think it is possible, since Egypt needs to replace 100s of old platforms..and that there is no smoke without fire!
> The Migs 29/35 and the rafales are not in big numbers.. they are 70 in total now..Egypt wants to upgrade a good number its F-16s to the Viper version, and that might be why it is postponing everything thing else..


Thank you sir

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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Cheap is the wrong term to be used for a product that you publicize yourself thru your writings---.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'cheap' and capable---. No 'cheap' product is a capable product---.
> 
> A quality product is a capable product---. The JF17 is a quality product---.
> 
> The only reason it is less expensive is because the labor costs are extremely low---and I know that you know that---.


Our people need to learn there is a huge difference between a "cheap" product and an economical solution. JF17 is by no means a cheap product with capabilities which only top blocks of F16 offer.

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## Amun

The SC said:


> I think it is possible, since Egypt needs to replace 100s of old platforms..and that there is no smoke without fire!
> The Migs 29/35 and the Rafales are not in big numbers.. they are 70 in total now..Egypt wants to upgrade a good number of its F-16s to the Viper version, and that might be why it is postponing everything else..



In addition to that....it is all about the total package......
Why going to Pakistan if you can deal with Chaina....?! Unless there is some thing else.....
TOT, local production of it’s ammunition or even some thing different like cruise missiles know how....

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## BATMAN

Amun said:


> In addition to that....it is all about the total package......
> Why going to Pakistan if you can deal with Chaina....?! Unless there is some thing else.....
> TOT, local production of it’s ammunition or even some thing different like cruise missiles know how....



You may go to China, if that satisfy your ego!
PAC is anyway occupied with other buyers, who trust Pakistan more than China.

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## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> You may go to China, if that satisfy your ego!
> PAC is anyway occupied with other buyers, who trust Pakistan more than China.



Hi,

Egypt has its own built up relationship with China---. So---they would be happier with dealing with the Chinese---.

In any kind of major procurement---you have to undrstand the mentality and thinking of the buyer---. Some buyers are purely utalitarian---they care less who they buy from---only the product needs to meet the standards---.

Egypt is not one of them---. For Egyptians---pakistanis are inferior---so they would want to deal with the superior---. It would be difficult for the egyptians to bring pakistans to their level on the pedestal---.

In simple words---the egyptians consider pakistan to be lower on the totem pole than the egyptians---.

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## Maxpane

They can go to china we want business and profit

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## Trango Towers

50cent said:


> e
> 
> For last 4 years threads of jf17 sales to azrbijan are running but it never happened
> 
> 
> 
> Only cash strapped nations like niageria burma in future afghanistan would go for this plane because they cant afford modern planes like f15 rafales my honest review all over world airforce select superior technolgy to be one step ahead of opposition


Ha ha ha.....i think burnol application required....apply even when sitting on a truck

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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> In simple words---the egyptians consider pakistan to be lower on the totem pole than the egyptians---.



I told you so, basically for Egypt they are above most of the world, specially their pilots and engineers. They do have good civil engineers, they have better town planning. So in this sense they are truly better.
Their only link with Pakistan is internet news, which are mostly from indian sources.
I blame 50% to our foreign office, who only have presence in many countries just for holiday.
PAF should some times do exercises with Egypt.

Yes Egypt already making trainer a/c with support of China. Same as our K-8.

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## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> I told you so, basically for Egypt they are above most of the world, specially their pilots and engineers. They do have good civil engineers, they have better town planning. So in this sense they are truly better.
> Their only link with Pakistan is internet news, which are mostly from indian sources.
> I blame 50% to our foreign office, who only have presence in many countries just for holiday.
> PAF should some times do exercises with Egypt.
> 
> Yes Egypt already making trainer a/c with support of China. Same as our K-8.



Hi,

I know them---because I worked with them---.

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## The SC

The fact is that it is China who came with the offer, not Pakistan.. and by the way Egyptians in general are very humble people.. they do not think that Pakistanis are less..

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## jupiter2007

undertakerwwefan said:


> Hopefully. JF-17 is good replacement for J-7.



L-15 is a good replacement of J-7 and it's half the cost of JF-17.


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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Egypt has its own built up relationship with China---. So---they would be happier with dealing with the Chinese---.
> 
> In any kind of major procurement---you have to undrstand the mentality and thinking of the buyer---. Some buyers are purely utalitarian---they care less who they buy from---only the product needs to meet the standards---.
> 
> Egypt is not one of them---. For Egyptians---pakistanis are inferior---so they would want to deal with the superior---. It would be difficult for the egyptians to bring pakistans to their level on the pedestal---.
> 
> In simple words---the egyptians consider pakistan to be lower on the totem pole than the egyptians---.


And I have seen their aukaat...when I attended a advance aerodynamics series at VKI... I was the only Asian origin guy in that institute directly supervised by NATO and how they made fun of Egyptians for very simple engineering issues ..they paid millions of dollars to a team of Germans.. I'm sure a normally qualified Pakistani mechanic would resolved it for Rs. 50,000. Their stupid ego is hurt but just look at them what's their achievement in the field of engineering and defence production.. NADA.. they are just buying stuff from others while Pakistan is a nuclear and a missile power despite its economic issues and also builds a lot of conventional weapons..
Israel handed them their asses in 1967 war and only Pakistani pilots were the ones who secured kills against IAF. 
So I think, they should can ride on that totem pole and scream... empty egoists without any honour..

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## Awan68

We can spank egyptian *** ten ways till sunday n not even blink, egypt is a feminine country, a whore basically ravaged by powers in all ages. In the grand scheme of things egypt is an ant compared to Pakistan. They are nothing but a shitty vessel state. The only two muslim nations worth a dime in the world today are Pakistan n Turkey, all the rest including egyptians are stupid, ignorant and defeated in every sense. U see, inferior in every sense.


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## kingQamaR

Don’t be to eager to sell your bird jf17 to Egypt. There airforces performance against its enemy in air combat is rubbish. Russians aircraft mauling by Israelis is still legendary. Better keep jf17 away from incompetence.

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## Saddam Hussein

Awan68 said:


> We can spank egyptian *** ten ways till sunday n not even blink, egypt is a feminine country, a whore basically ravaged by powers in all ages. In the grand scheme of things egypt is an ant compared to Pakistan. They are nothing but a shitty vessel state. The only two muslim nations worth a dime in the world today are Pakistan n Turkey, all the rest including egyptians are stupid, ignorant and defeated in every sense. U see, inferior in every sense.



Pakistan and Turkey are under the US and have been so for decades. Turkey only recently (last 15 years) rose, before that it was poor and busy within its own borders whilst Iran and certain Arab states were highly influential. As for Pakistan you should keep busy with India instead of insulting a country too far away for you to do anything with.

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## Awan68

CamelGuy said:


> Pakistan and Turkey are under the US and have been so for decades. Turkey only recently (last 15 years) rose, before that it was poor and busy within its own borders whilst Iran and certain Arab states were highly influential. As for Pakistan you should keep busy with India instead of insulting a country too far away for you to do anything with.


Look here kid, turkey was under US influence yes but they had the guts to come out n now are braving it out under Erdogan, Pakistan is a all different ball gane mate, u cannot talk on that level bieng an egyptian, we are the sole nuclear power on earth, we destroyed the soviets, we trapped the americans in afghanistan n now they are begging us for a resolution in afghanistan. We are the sole threat from the muslim world to the west n israel, the only country they cant invade or control, apart from that we are the only muslim country struggling it out with india( the sole pagan power on earth from 70 yrs, Prophet( pbuh) struggle was against the pagans n we are the only ones doing that now while u arabs bend over for india. While egypt on the other hand is a bitch of america,they control ur military, they made ur military kill ur elected govt n its supporters n installed a vessel sissi on u, u are a vessel of america now so shut it buddy.


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## Total Destruction

Amun said:


> In addition to that....it is all about the total package......
> Why going to Pakistan if you can deal with Chaina....?! Unless there is some thing else.....
> TOT, local production of it’s ammunition or even some thing different like cruise missiles know how....


Egypt should care more about TOT in its coming deals.

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## The SC

Total Destruction said:


> Egypt should care more about TOT in its coming deals.


It is already the new official Egyptian weapons procurement policy..The making of 3 Gowind in Egypt is a good example..

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## Globalwarrior

Please don’t label anything you make in which so much work has been placed as ‘cheap’....
the west equates cheap to calling it garbage which it certainly isn’t. 
It’s a quality product

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## Trango Towers

Globalwarrior said:


> Please don’t label anything you make in which so much work has been placed as ‘cheap’....
> the west equates cheap to calling it garbage which it certainly isn’t.
> It’s a quality product



cost effective

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## Saddam Hussein

Awan68 said:


> Look here kid, turkey was under US influence yes but they had the guts to come out n now are braving it out under Erdogan, Pakistan is a all different ball gane mate, u cannot talk on that level bieng an egyptian, we are the sole nuclear power on earth, we destroyed the soviets, we trapped the americans in afghanistan n now they are begging us for a resolution in afghanistan. We are the sole threat from the muslim world to the west n israel, the only country they cant invade or control, apart from that we are the only muslim country struggling it out with india( the sole pagan power on earth from 70 yrs, Prophet( pbuh) struggle was against the pagans n we are the only ones doing that now while u arabs bend over for india. While egypt on the other hand is a bitch of america,they control ur military, they made ur military kill ur elected govt n its supporters n installed a vessel sissi on u, u are a vessel of america now so shut it buddy.



You need Arabization, didn't read your shit.


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## Awan68

CamelGuy said:


> You need Arabization, didn't read your shit.


Im more Arab than u will ever be boy, iam from those because of whom all arabs have recognition.


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## Saddam Hussein

Awan68 said:


> Im more Arab than u will ever be boy, iam from those because of whom all arabs have recognition.



Turkey is friendly to the US, Erdogan makes speeches and that's about all the hostility there has been between them. People on this forum act like Turkey is some kind of resistance against the US, they host American troops there so spare me the 'US bitches' insults to other Arab states. That said i'm not Egyptian but from Iraq, the state which had to deal with all other Muslim states siding with America, including Pakistan which does what Saudi Arabia says.

Your air force is built on American donations, not much different from Egypt's air force. are you done now?

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## Awan68

CamelGuy said:


> Turkey is friendly to the US, Erdogan makes speeches and that's about all the hostility there has been between them. People on this forum act like Turkey is some kind of resistance against the US, they host American troops there so spare me the 'US bitches' insults to other Arab states. That said i'm not Egyptian but from Iraq, the state which had to deal with all other Muslim states siding with America, including Pakistan which does what Saudi Arabia says.
> 
> Your air force is built on American donations, not much different from Egypt's air force. are you done now?


What a load of adoloscent bullshit, i will not continue this with a kid who knws zero about geopolitics and recent history.


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## Saddam Hussein

Awan68 said:


> What a load of adoloscent bullshit, i will not continue this with a kid who knws zero about geopolitics and recent history.



looooooooooooooooooooooool

you don't even know me idiot yet assume that which I know and don't. Are you angry about the JF-17, didn't read this entire thread but that might just be it someone criticized that precious piece of metal SHIT whether it works or not, I don't care too much.


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## Skywalker

CamelGuy said:


> looooooooooooooooooooooool
> 
> you don't even know me idiot yet assume that which I know and don't. Are you angry about the JF-17, didn't read this entire thread but that might just be it someone criticized that precious piece of metal SHIT whether it works or not, I don't care too much.


I never thought that this day will come when an Iraqi retard give us a lecture about geopolitics. A tiny small country like Israel ripped your a$$ apart, have you forgotten what they did to your ozirak reactor. Have you forgotten that your own Arab brethren’s raped you time n again, have you forgotten that with all your billions of petro dollars you still had to beg for day to day expenses from your western masters and Arab allies you piece of shit.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

CamelGuy said:


> Turkey is friendly to the US, Erdogan makes speeches and that's about all the hostility there has been between them. People on this forum act like Turkey is some kind of resistance against the US, they host American troops there so spare me the 'US bitches' insults to other Arab states. That said i'm not Egyptian but from Iraq, the state which had to deal with all other Muslim states siding with America, including Pakistan which does what Saudi Arabia says.
> 
> Your air force is built on American donations, not much different from Egypt's air force. are you done now?


Welcome to POLITICS... This is a classic way to earn good wills from every one be internal or external. 
What happens in the world of politics is friends are only till time they needed. Saddam Hussain was needed to finish the Iranian Revolution, something he did not achieve in a long war, further he fell pray to those who were helping him when he tried to gain control of what was never authorized i.e INVADE KUWAIT. Though unofficially there may have been some sort of promises. 

Once a puppet should always remain a puppet was no more valid...Saddam never looked upon the Shah of IRAN life story...The same thing happened to Qaddafi...

Any way this is a thread that talks about JF-17 and Egypt so lets get back to the topic. 
By the way you mentioned that Egyptian and Pakistani air forces are made from the donations of USA, this is true now do also understand this that the F-16's bought by IRAQ along with the FA-50 Golden Eagle from South Korea are also on donation. Moreover the USA has demanded Iraq to pay for the WAR for its Liberation by the supplies of oil. With due respect your leaders did not even raise the issue that the WAR that was waged on IRAQ was based on Weapons of Mass Destruction and Chemical Weapons which were shown in the UNITED NATION but never found in IRAQ. Moreover the OIL that has been supplied to USA since the beginning of war has never been counted for and paid.


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## Saddam Hussein

Skywalker said:


> I never thought that this day will come when an Iraqi retard give us a lecture about geopolitics. A tiny small country like Israel ripped your a$$ apart, have you forgotten what they did to your ozirak reactor. Have you forgotten that your own Arab brethren’s raped you time n again, have you forgotten that with all your billions of petro dollars you still had to beg for day to day expenses from your western masters and Arab allies you piece of shit.



The reactor is called Tammuz-1, Osirak is the name of their operation. They did this whilst Iraq was engaged in a war with Iran which is a large country. Israel didn't rip anything as they can barely do anything, it was the US military and they can rip your *** apart as well, oh I forgot they conduct drone and infil-exfil OPS within Pakistan.

Pakistan and Turkey work with the US, they're no better than Egypt or any other Arab state. Kuffar animals, that counts for Erdogan and the cricket player of yours.

I don't see any begging, the core component of your air fore (F-16's) was built on US military aid donations so you shouldn't bring up that topic.

Are you and your friends done now with the anti-Arab, Turkey/Pakistan stronk story? You would both be in a deep shit if you took a strong stance against the US, hence you're both letting them do as they like. Erdogan jumps around with a few speeches in Turkish, that means nothing it's the same what Trump does to Americans to target the uneducated masses.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Welcome to POLITICS... This is a classic way to earn good wills from every one be internal or external.
> What happens in the world of politics is friends are only till time they needed. Saddam Hussain was needed to finish the Iranian Revolution, something he did not achieve in a long war, further he fell pray to those who were helping him when he tried to gain control of what was never authorized i.e INVADE KUWAIT. Though unofficially there may have been some sort of promises.
> 
> Once a puppet should always remain a puppet was no more valid...Saddam never looked upon the Shah of IRAN life story...The same thing happened to Qaddafi...
> 
> Any way this is a thread that talks about JF-17 and Egypt so lets get back to the topic.
> By the way you mentioned that Egyptian and Pakistani air forces are made from the donations of USA, this is true now do also understand this that the F-16's bought by IRAQ along with the FA-50 Golden Eagle from South Korea are also on donation. Moreover the USA has demanded Iraq to pay for the WAR for its Liberation by the supplies of oil. With due respect your leaders did not even raise the issue that the WAR that was waged on IRAQ was based on Weapons of Mass Destruction and Chemical Weapons which were shown in the UNITED NATION but never found in IRAQ. Moreover the OIL that has been supplied to USA since the beginning of war has never been counted for and paid.



Iraq's purchase of F-16's and FA-50 are not on donation but paid for by the oil money, likewise the Abrams tanks were purchased with the oil money, the US did not formally demand for Iraq to pay for any way, a few officials did unofficially.

You have to back up these claims, US military aid to Iraq consisted and still consists out of small arms, ammunition and training as well as a small number of old UH-1 helicopters back in 2005-2007. Heavy weaponry (tanks, jets) was not given for free.


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## Skywalker

CamelGuy said:


> The reactor is called Tammuz-1, Osirak is the name of their operation. They did this whilst Iraq was engaged in a war with Iran which is a large country. Israel didn't rip anything as they can barely do anything, it was the US military and they can rip your *** apart as well, oh I forgot they conduct drone and infil-exfil OPS within Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan and Turkey work with the US, they're no better than Egypt or any other Arab state. Kuffar animals, that counts for Erdogan and the cricket player of yours.
> 
> I don't see any begging, the core component of your air fore (F-16's) was built on US military aid donations so you shouldn't bring up that topic.
> 
> Are you and your friends done now with the anti-Arab, Turkey/Pakistan stronk story? You would both be in a deep shit if you took a strong stance against the US, hence you're both letting them do as they like. Erdogan jumps around with a few speeches in Turkish, that means nothing it's the same what Trump does to Americans to target the uneducated masses.
> 
> 
> 
> Iraq's purchase of F-16's and FA-50 are not on donation but paid for by the oil money, likewise the Abrams tanks were purchased with the oil money, the US did not formally demand for Iraq to pay for any way, a few officials did unofficially.
> 
> You have to back up these claims, US military aid to Iraq consisted and still consists out of small arms, ammunition and training as well as a small number of old UH-1 helicopters back in 2005-2007. Heavy weaponry (tanks, jets) was not given for free.


A shitty Iraqi retard trying to be the hero of what not. Before the gulf war you were the darling of the west just because of your shitty petro dollars, look what happened to your shitty country with all that petro money. Now wonder you call yourself camel guy, if had used brain instead of camel nstincts you would have been far better off idiot.

You Iraqis have lost your balls long time ago(in fact you never had one). Tell all these bs Arab stories to someone shitty like your own countrymen. All your imagination about USA have done this or that is mental fart which Iraqis are expert in. I hope your new generation would not be the illegitimate kids of American soldiers you retard.

Show some balls and start using your mouth rather than your back.


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## Saddam Hussein

Skywalker said:


> A shitty Iraqi retard trying to be the hero of what not. Before the gulf war you were the darling of the west just because of your shitty petro dollars, look what happened to your shitty country with all that petro money. Now wonder you call yourself camel guy, if had used brain instead of camel nstincts you would have been far better off idiot.
> 
> You Iraqis have lost your balls long time ago(in fact you never had one). Tell all these bs Arab stories to someone shitty like your own countrymen. All your imagination about USA have done this or that is mental fart which Iraqis are expert in. I hope your new generation would not be the illegitimate kids of American soldiers you retard.
> 
> Show some balls and start using your mouth rather than your back.



The hinduism hasn't left this animal, you need more Arabism to clean yourself from the Indian in you which is what you are anyway.

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## Skywalker

CamelGuy said:


> The hinduism hasn't left this animal, you need more Arabism to clean yourself from the Indian in you which is what you are anyway.


Ok Iraqi retard what makes you think that my ancestors were Hindu. So what were your ancestors like, before Islam came to Arab. Start using your brain you camel fart.


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## Maxpane

Am sorry but plz be on topic .


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## ACE OF THE AIR

CamelGuy said:


> The reactor is called Tammuz-1, Osirak is the name of their operation. They did this whilst Iraq was engaged in a war with Iran which is a large country. Israel didn't rip anything as they can barely do anything


Yes the Israeli's did not do much but S***faced the Iraqi's. Iranians also could have destroyed it if they had the adequate weapons. It was not once but twice that the Iraqi's had to wipe their faces clean.

Now you better get going before you are further humiliated


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## Amun

@CamelGuy don’t bother your self my dear friend....we see a lot of those ignorant people here for years.
Just ignore them.



BATMAN said:


> You may go to China, if that satisfy your ego!
> PAC is anyway occupied with other buyers, who trust Pakistan more than China.



Why so angry....?!
Does the Pakistani negotiators have the same manners......!? If so.....your weapon exports will not go far.

I’m not saying something bad about Pakistan or JF-17 BIII.....am only saying that as Egyptians we have to make the maximum use of this deal.....get the maximum benefits and value for money..... this thing is called ( NEGOTIATIONS).
If you want some country to get the plan blindly...it is not Egypt 
Or if you want us to buy it from you as a Muslim country not from other (Koffar) then you can provide us with some Nukes as a Muslim country as well....a thing that you will never do.

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## BATMAN

Amun said:


> @CamelGuy don’t bother your self my dear friend....we see a lot of those ignorant people here for years.
> Just ignore them.
> 
> 
> 
> Why so angry....?!
> Does the Pakistani negotiators have the same manners......!? If so.....your weapon exports will not go far.
> 
> I’m not saying something bad about Pakistan or JF-17 BIII.....am only saying that as Egyptians we have to make the maximum use of this deal.....get the maximum benefits and value for money..... this thing is called ( NEGOTIATIONS).
> If you want some country to get the plan blindly...it is not Egypt
> Or if you want us to buy it from you as a Muslim country not from other (Koffar) then you can provide us with some Nukes as a Muslim country as well....a thing that you will never do.



I'm not angry, read my remarks in context to your earlier remarks.
Yes, Pakistan may not be a good salesman, but we do go out of the way to help our friends and brothers.
I also don't mean you go out blindly, test fly jF-17 as much you like, pit it against Rafael, may be do a war games with Pakistan.
If it was upto me, i'll surely give you nukes or nuclear umbrella.
Egypt govt. should also do some effort to build strong diplomatic connections based on mutual interests.

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## PakAlp

I believe paf must have told EAF to buy a fighter platform which is sanction free, from a different supplier, can install different weapon systems, with full support of a Muslim nation, cheaper running cost as it's light weight plane. This would be highly beneficial just incase of war. This seems very attractive.

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## Ace of Spades

war&peace said:


> And I have seen their aukaat...when I attended a advance aerodynamics series at VKI... I was the only Asian origin guy in that institute directly supervised by NATO and how they made fun of Egyptians for very simple engineering issues ..they paid millions of dollars to a team of Germans.. I'm sure a normally qualified Pakistani mechanic would resolved it for Rs. 50,000. Their stupid ego is hurt but just look at them what's their achievement in the field of engineering and defence production.. NADA.. they are just buying stuff from others while Pakistan is a nuclear and a missile power despite its economic issues and also builds a lot of conventional weapons..
> Israel handed them their asses in 1967 war and only Pakistani pilots were the ones who secured kills against IAF.
> So I think, they should can ride on that totem pole and scream... empty egoists without any honour..



That's the general trend i have seen with people from our bradar islamic mumalik. They ride high on their horses and think quite much of themselves. Starting from our immediate neighbors to all the way to africa.



CamelGuy said:


> The hinduism hasn't left this animal, you need more Arabism to clean yourself from the Indian in you which is what you are anyway.



Spoken like a true Pharaoh (firon) descendant. He used to think quite much of himself as well. Be careful there boy. What have you guys achieved in your miserable history? Got oil from earth; which these so called "evil americans" extracted for you. What else you guys have except for empty talk? BTW what's the reason you gave for asylum application in UK? Getting fucked by literally everyone?

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## war&peace

Ace of Spades said:


> That's the general trend i have seen with people from our bradar islamic mumalik. They ride high on their horses and think quite much of themselves. Starting from our immediate neighbors to all the way to africa.


Well, some of them have attitude problem especially GCC guys and as you said starting with Iran to Arab countries... while Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey and most of central asian states have no such issues... in fact, Pakistani and Turkish people have the best attitude towards each other.. Many Bd people are also nice but their politics and politicians make them bitter. But if you see, due to this arrogance, Arabs have suffered a lot and if they don't change, they will suffer even more... their suffering is not over yet regardless of how many weapons they buy from USA and west...everything is coming with kill switches..

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## Ace of Spades

war&peace said:


> Well, some of them have attitude problem especially GCC guys and as you said starting with Iran to Arab countries... while Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey and most of central asian states have no such issues... in fact, Pakistani and Turkish people have the best attitude towards each other.. Many Bd people are also nice but their politics and politicians make them bitter. But if you see, due to this arrogance, Arabs have suffered a lot and if they don't change, they will suffer even more... their suffering is not over yet regardless of how many weapons they buy from USA and west...everything is coming with kill switches..



I agree; it's this lot you mentioned who have quite an attitude. But it will all fall in line, it's just the matter of time. The reasons for which they are what they are today haven't changed; after gone through such a miserable ridicule and shame i thought even a monkey would learn. But oh boy... here we are!!


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## Philip the Arab

BATMAN said:


> I'm not angry, read my remarks in context to your earlier remarks.
> Yes, Pakistan may not be a good salesman, but we do go out of the way to help our friends and brothers.
> I also don't mean you go out blindly, test fly jF-17 as much you like, pit it against Rafael, may be do a war games with Pakistan.
> If it was upto me, i'll surely give you nukes or nuclear umbrella.
> Egypt govt. should also do some effort to build strong diplomatic connections based on mutual interests.


Rafale would trash on JF-17 with equal pilots just because it has much better technology and isn't a light fighter. This image should tell you a lot


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## war&peace

Ace of Spades said:


> I agree; it's this lot you mentioned who have quite an attitude. But it will all fall in line, it's just the matter of time. The reasons for which they are what they are today haven't changed; after gone through such a miserable ridicule and shame i thought even a monkey would learn. But oh boy... here we are!!


Well, normally people at the top have problem.. I have met pretty kind and friendly brothers and sisters from Arab countries including UAE, KSA, Egypt, Lebanon so it is not intended to malign all but some definitely have an arrogant attitude firstly because of their Arab superiority complex that has no place in Islam..in fact it is pre-islamic and secondly because of the newly found wealth through and since they can expensive so they think they have become developed. However not all people are the same.. Many of them are pretty decent people who try to live their lives by Islamic principles of brotherhood and equality. However, we need to focus on our economy and get our house in order before can point fingers at them... For example, Turkey is pretty okay and does not have to think about them and most of the Arabs come to Turkey for tourism and Turks only go to KSA for Hajj and Umra.. other than that it is rare to find a Turk working or even staying in GCC.

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## The SC

war&peace said:


> Well, normally people at the top have problem.. I have met pretty kind and friendly brothers and sisters from Arab countries including UAE, KSA, Egypt, Lebanon so it is not intended to malign all but some definitely have an arrogant attitude firstly because of their Arab superiority complex that has no place in Islam..in fact it is pre-islamic and secondly because of the newly found wealth through and since they can expensive so they think they have become developed. However not all people are the same.. Many of them are pretty decent people who try to live their lives by Islamic principles of brotherhood and equality. However, we need to focus on our economy and get our house in order before can point fingers at them... For example, Turkey is pretty okay and does not have to think about them and most of the Arabs come to Turkey for tourism and Turks only go to KSA for Hajj and Umra.. other than that it is rare to find a Turk working or even staying in GCC.


Sorry, but there are some wrong assumptions in your post, first the Arabs had some of the richest empires on earth and they have not showed this so called Arab supremacy that is in fact opposed to Islam's essence..but hey you've got some on PDF, you can count on your fingers who might get emotional and answer some arrogance with the same tone!
Also, there are more than a hundred thousand Turks working, and some doing business in KSA..

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## Sinnerman108

Amun said:


> In addition to that....it is all about the total package......
> Why going to Pakistan if you can deal with Chaina....?! Unless there is some thing else.....
> TOT, local production of it’s ammunition or even some thing different like cruise missiles know how....



See Destruction's post. Self reliance is more important than anything else.



Total Destruction said:


> Egypt should care more about TOT in its coming deals.





YvngEngineer said:


> Rafale would trash on JF-17 with equal pilots just because it has much better technology and isn't a light fighter. This image should tell you a lot



You maybe right,
However when you are operating an aircraft that you make or known inside and out,
you are confident it will do what it is suppose to do; without any tricks and surprise buttons from the manufacturers.
After every cycle your approach and confidence gets better and better .. that is how you make progress.
Buying foreign weapons on commercial basis alone will never make a nation self reliant.
Lets not even talk about IFF and radar signatures ..

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## Trango Towers

Amun said:


> @CamelGuy don’t bother your self my dear friend....we see a lot of those ignorant people here for years.
> Just ignore them.
> 
> 
> 
> Why so angry....?!
> Does the Pakistani negotiators have the same manners......!? If so.....your weapon exports will not go far.
> 
> I’m not saying something bad about Pakistan or JF-17 BIII.....am only saying that as Egyptians we have to make the maximum use of this deal.....get the maximum benefits and value for money..... this thing is called ( NEGOTIATIONS).
> If you want some country to get the plan blindly...it is not Egypt
> Or if you want us to buy it from you as a Muslim country not from other (Koffar) then you can provide us with some Nukes as a Muslim country as well....a thing that you will never do.


Firstly its a lact of understanding. Pakistan now owns 58 percent of this aircraft. If you had a grocery shop as a partnership you will discuss the terms of sales with your partners. Going to China or Pakistan is the same. This is business and islamically there are no brothers. We in pakistan know exactlt how our arab brothers think and how palestine is suffering.
Regarding nukes....if you had them you would only use them on your own people or neighbouring muslim countries. So thats just a silly statement.

Personally if arab countries but them theh should be manned by pakistani pilots under the command of their country. Combat with israel i want the jf17 to be able to fight and not perform like arab aircoces of past conflict. Else the world will think ist jf17 thats a bad aircraft


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## The SC

Awan68 said:


> We can spank egyptian *** ten ways till sunday n not even blink, egypt is a feminine country, a whore basically ravaged by powers in all ages. In the grand scheme of things egypt is an ant compared to Pakistan. They are nothing but a shitty vessel state. The only two muslim nations worth a dime in the world today are Pakistan n Turkey, all the rest including egyptians are stupid, ignorant and defeated in every sense. U see, inferior in every sense.




https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/egypt/egcivile.html 

You are just ignorant of Egypt..
*Pyramids of Giza and Orion’s Belt*






https://osr.org/blog/astronomy/pyramids-of-giza-and-orions-belt/

You can spank Sh**

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## Sinnerman108

The SC said:


> https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/egypt/egcivile.html
> 
> You are just ignorant of Egypt..
> *Pyramids of Giza and Orion’s Belt*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://osr.org/blog/astronomy/pyramids-of-giza-and-orions-belt/
> 
> You can spank Sh**



That is history
this is reality.


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## I S I

The SC said:


> * Belt*


Nice LEDs there bud


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## The SC

Sinnerman108 said:


> That is history
> this is reality.


Reality my friend is that Egypt has the most powerful and advanced armed forces of Africa and the middle East.. the rest is confidential..I can only tell you that it can retaliate on even nuclear bombs with its own WMD up to 5500 km away....Not mentioning its very strong back..



I S I said:


> Nice LEDs there bud


Those are Saturn, Venus and Mercury "LEDs"..

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## sami_1

Ha ha ha ha
It is clear that there is a real problem for the Pakistanis. They deal hostile against the Egyptians, perhaps due to other things, sympathy for the terrorist groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and also as a result of their sympathy for the Turks, so we find an unfriendly tone for dealing.


To clarify a very important point, the JF-17 failed to attract the attention of any real or effective air force, even the Pakistanis themselves turned it into a ground attack by using Israeli scoring ASELPOD with a Turkish name.






The plane is modest and Egypt used it as a tool to obtain the best MiG-Mi 29 planes with various armament and also a continuous development program for it followed by obtaining the SU-35
Malaysia, Azerbaijan and other countries put it in comparison with the advanced training planes yak-130,
M346
Argentina favored the T-50 advanced training plane

Even Qatar was considering replacing it with Alpha jet

And the fact that Egypt had 45 Alpha jet and the JF-17B is a good alternative to the Alpha jet training plane if we take into account that the JF-17B was sold to Myanmar at a price of $ 16 million for 16 aircraft, therefore Egypt can get this plane at a better price less than the Pakistani assessments in Failed plane pricing because simply there is stiff competition from competing training planes, the Russians supply the YAk-130 radar BARS-130 even if it is not AESA radar but it will also keep the plane's low pricing of munitions at $ 15.5 million
We will not talk about the competing M346 plane that Italy has offered for the JF-17 less advanced electronic equipment
We will not talk about the Chinese competition in the FTC-2000G plane, which is priced at 10 million dollars, and it will be exported by the WS-13 to raise its capabilities to the level of the Pakistani plane, but at a much lower cost.




Let us invite Egypt to be convinced of the JF-17 as an advanced training plane that in this case you may be interested in against M346 / YAK-130 / T-7A 






Away from the Pakistani national pride, but all the global air force does not accept the Pakistani JF-17 , and the Pakistanis themselves feel a need to fight the reality of facing the best aircraft of the Indian Air Force.

Egypt, if there is any benefit in the Pakistani plane, that it was ignorant of a year 2003


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## Trango Towers

sami_1 said:


> Ha ha ha ha
> It is clear that there is a real problem for the Pakistanis. They deal hostile against the Egyptians, perhaps due to other things, sympathy for the terrorist groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and also as a result of their sympathy for the Turks, so we find an unfriendly tone for dealing.
> 
> 
> To clarify a very important point, the JF-17 failed to attract the attention of any real or effective air force, even the Pakistanis themselves turned it into a ground attack by using Israeli scoring ASELPOD with a Turkish name.
> View attachment 622624
> 
> 
> The plane is modest and Egypt used it as a tool to obtain the best MiG-Mi 29 planes with various armament and also a continuous development program for it followed by obtaining the SU-35
> Malaysia, Azerbaijan and other countries put it in comparison with the advanced training planes yak-130,
> M346
> Argentina favored the T-50 advanced training plane
> 
> Even Qatar was considering replacing it with Alpha jet
> 
> And the fact that Egypt had 45 Alpha jet and the JF-17B is a good alternative to the Alpha jet training plane if we take into account that the JF-17B was sold to Myanmar at a price of $ 16 million for 16 aircraft, therefore Egypt can get this plane at a better price less than the Pakistani assessments in Failed plane pricing because simply there is stiff competition from competing training planes, the Russians supply the YAk-130 radar BARS-130 even if it is not AESA radar but it will also keep the plane's low pricing of munitions at $ 15.5 million
> We will not talk about the competing M346 plane that Italy has offered for the JF-17 less advanced electronic equipment
> We will not talk about the Chinese competition in the FTC-2000G plane, which is priced at 10 million dollars, and it will be exported by the WS-13 to raise its capabilities to the level of the Pakistani plane, but at a much lower cost.
> View attachment 622627
> 
> Let us invite Egypt to be convinced of the JF-17 as an advanced training plane that in this case you may be interested in against M346 / YAK-130 / T-7A
> View attachment 622628
> 
> 
> 
> Away from the Pakistani national pride, but all the global air force does not accept the Pakistani JF-17 , and the Pakistanis themselves feel a need to fight the reality of facing the best aircraft of the Indian Air Force.
> 
> Egypt, if there is any benefit in the Pakistani plane, that it was ignorant of a year 2003


Oh dear. Sami you are truly an arab.. waffling is your speciality and you are self indulged in look how great I am. Fact is you Egyptians have been whooped in every war you have fought by a tiny country called israel. You were asleep when they took out your entire airforce in a single day.
The reason you african(not arabs) cant make up your mind on an independent weapons system is because your white masters do not allow you. Additionally, you slave mentality still tells you that whatever the white man does is best and a brown fellow can never compete. Just look in the mirror.
Who cares if you buy or not. Best you dont as when the Israelis whoop you again you will blame the equipment instead of your inability to fight. Remember it require heart. You Africans dont have that
The fact you state that egypt used it to buy mig 29 show how effective the plane is. 
The you state global airforce didnt accept it....well how long did it take the french to get the 1st order for Rafaels before you Africans begged Saudis to buy you some and in turn you gave Egyptian islands to the Saudis. Gosh is there a limit to your humiliations. And ps you use k8. Pakistani sino project. So suck it up my little spear chucker. No wonder the israelis think you are pathetic

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## Amun

Trango Towers said:


> Oh dear. Sami you are truly an arab.. waffling is your speciality and you are self indulged in look how great I am. Fact is you Egyptians have been whooped in every war you have fought by a tiny country called israel. You were asleep when they took out your entire airforce in a single day.
> The reason you african(not arabs) cant make up your mind on an independent weapons system is because your white masters do not allow you. Additionally, you slave mentality still tells you that whatever the white man does is best and a brown fellow can never compete. Just look in the mirror.
> Who cares if you buy or not. Best you dont as when the Israelis whoop you again you will blame the equipment instead of your inability to fight. Remember it require heart. You Africans dont have that
> The fact you state that egypt used it to buy mig 29 show how effective the plane is.
> The you state global airforce didnt accept it....well how long did it take the french to get the 1st order for Rafaels before you Africans begged Saudis to buy you some and in turn you gave Egyptian islands to the Saudis. Gosh is there a limit to your humiliations. And ps you use k8. Pakistani sino project. So suck it up my little spear chucker. No wonder the israelis think you are pathetic



*So much ignorance..... not a single info about the plan ..... I know many of you Pakistanis here are pro Israel & Turkish NATO state ..... but be more rational ..... Egypt is the only country that cares about Alquds ..... you people only protest or hid behind your Key boards .....

Why should Egypt deal with Pakistan in that plan while it can deal with China ( the main source ) ... 
As for wars with Israel .... yes we have been defeated then we smashed them and took our lands back just after 6 years .... but as you Israeli/ Turkish NATO state lovers .... don’t see the whole picture.....

BTW 
Have Americans stopped killing your citizens up by drones inside your national soil .... without your knowledge....!?*



Trango Towers said:


> Oh dear. Sami you are truly an arab.. waffling is your speciality and you are self indulged in look how great I am. Fact is you Egyptians have been whooped in every war you have fought by a tiny country called israel. You were asleep when they took out your entire airforce in a single day.
> The reason you african(not arabs) cant make up your mind on an independent weapons system is because your white masters do not allow you. Additionally, you slave mentality still tells you that whatever the white man does is best and a brown fellow can never compete. Just look in the mirror.
> Who cares if you buy or not. Best you dont as when the Israelis whoop you again you will blame the equipment instead of your inability to fight. Remember it require heart. You Africans dont have that
> The fact you state that egypt used it to buy mig 29 show how effective the plane is.
> The you state global airforce didnt accept it....well how long did it take the french to get the 1st order for Rafaels before you Africans begged Saudis to buy you some and in turn you gave Egyptian islands to the Saudis. Gosh is there a limit to your humiliations. And ps you use k8. Pakistani sino project. So suck it up my little spear chucker. No wonder the israelis think you are pathetic



*I forgot to mention that Rafal deal come with a loan from French Banks in order to keep the deal going and avoid canceling it for any reason like what happened for the Russian Mistrals .....

try to read and learn ...!*

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## PakFactor

sami_1 said:


> Ha ha ha ha
> It is clear that there is a real problem for the Pakistanis. They deal hostile against the Egyptians, perhaps due to other things, sympathy for the terrorist groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and also as a result of their sympathy for the Turks, so we find an unfriendly tone for dealing.
> 
> 
> To clarify a very important point, the JF-17 failed to attract the attention of any real or effective air force, even the Pakistanis themselves turned it into a ground attack by using Israeli scoring ASELPOD with a Turkish name.
> View attachment 622624
> 
> 
> The plane is modest and Egypt used it as a tool to obtain the best MiG-Mi 29 planes with various armament and also a continuous development program for it followed by obtaining the SU-35
> Malaysia, Azerbaijan and other countries put it in comparison with the advanced training planes yak-130,
> M346
> Argentina favored the T-50 advanced training plane
> 
> Even Qatar was considering replacing it with Alpha jet
> 
> And the fact that Egypt had 45 Alpha jet and the JF-17B is a good alternative to the Alpha jet training plane if we take into account that the JF-17B was sold to Myanmar at a price of $ 16 million for 16 aircraft, therefore Egypt can get this plane at a better price less than the Pakistani assessments in Failed plane pricing because simply there is stiff competition from competing training planes, the Russians supply the YAk-130 radar BARS-130 even if it is not AESA radar but it will also keep the plane's low pricing of munitions at $ 15.5 million
> We will not talk about the competing M346 plane that Italy has offered for the JF-17 less advanced electronic equipment
> We will not talk about the Chinese competition in the FTC-2000G plane, which is priced at 10 million dollars, and it will be exported by the WS-13 to raise its capabilities to the level of the Pakistani plane, but at a much lower cost.
> View attachment 622627
> 
> Let us invite Egypt to be convinced of the JF-17 as an advanced training plane that in this case you may be interested in against M346 / YAK-130 / T-7A
> View attachment 622628
> 
> 
> 
> Away from the Pakistani national pride, but all the global air force does not accept the Pakistani JF-17 , and the Pakistanis themselves feel a need to fight the reality of facing the best aircraft of the Indian Air Force.
> 
> Egypt, if there is any benefit in the Pakistani plane, that it was ignorant of a year 2003



I have no idea where you picked up your garage information. JF-17 is designed by an Air Force to do what needs to be done, and has shown it’s effectiveness as as a air to air fighter during our assault on India last year. JF-17 is a multi role fighter can be used in any role. I suggest you learn more about this plane rather than making stupid assumptions. 

As for you talking about an effective Air Force, Egypt, by no measure is an effective force even when you had the latest equipment your military failed on all fronts. Rather not just Egypt, all Arab Air Forces, have failed just having some F-16s and again latest Russian fighters will not save you. 

Also, globally very few air forces are even effective in war and looked at for training etc. and Pakistan Air Force is one of them. I have yet to see any Africa / Middle Eastern Air Force being taken seriously. 

Suggest you learn more before opening your mouth.



Amun said:


> *So much ignorance..... not a single info about the plan ..... I know many of you Pakistanis here are pro Israel & Turkish NATO state ..... but be more rational ..... Egypt is the only country that cares about Alquds ..... you people only protest or hid behind your Key boards .....
> 
> Why should Egypt deal with Pakistan in that plan while it can deal with China ( the main source ) ...
> As for wars with Israel .... yes we have been defeated then we smashed them and took our lands back just after 6 years .... but as you Israeli/ Turkish NATO state lovers .... don’t see the whole picture.....
> 
> BTW
> Have Americans stopped killing your citizens up by drones inside your national soil .... without your knowledge....!?*
> 
> 
> 
> *I forgot to mention that Rafal deal come with a loan from French Banks in order to keep the deal going and avoid canceling it for any reason like what happened for the Russian Mistrals .....
> 
> try to read and learn ...!*



Israeli through a peace deal gave you back Sinai and other territories you’ve lost, they were at your door step Cairo, and their was not a thing you can do about it. You couldn’t hold a country the size of my fish bowl back, and you talk smack about our forces which is holding back a country 7x our size. Lol.

Had you cared about this so called Al Quds; which I don’t care about at all, you would have armed and taken care of the Palestinians and not help Israel enforce the blockade so your hypocrites right there. Also your Arab policies and wars made things worse for the Palestinians. Hell if they had two neurons firing they should have joined Israel by now and hit Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt as retribution by now.

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## wali87

Block3s are a natural solution to Egyptian air force’s longstanding problem, BVR capability. all those f16s and no aim120s. US won’t sell them and Russian ones aren’t reliable enough. Jf17 armed with AESA and pl15 would we be a game changer for Egypt. They can even afford it!

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## Philip the Arab

Have said this before, and will say it again. Israeli air force means nothing if you can take it out on the ground, it is hard but theoretically possible to do with long range MLRS, Iron Dome will not be able to counter large barrages of 50-100 missiles. Now doing that before Israel can strike back is a bit harder, so this strategy is more realistic for Hezbollah or SAA to do.

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## flameboard

This news is 2 years old


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## Philip the Arab

flameboard said:


> This news is 2 years old


Maybe once EDEX 2020 comes around we will see more.


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## flameboard

Philip the Arab said:


> Maybe once EDEX 2020 comes around we will see more.


My bad I was referring to the first post

BTW Where’s the article showing Egyptian interest in 2020


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## Philip the Arab

flameboard said:


> My bad I was referring to the first post
> 
> BTW Where’s the article showing Egyptian interest in 2020


There isn't because Egypt has not had it's defense expo yet. Somebody made a video detailing benefits it would do for Egyptian industry.


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## Trango Towers

Amun said:


> *So much ignorance..... not a single info about the plan ..... I know many of you Pakistanis here are pro Israel & Turkish NATO state ..... but be more rational ..... Egypt is the only country that cares about Alquds ..... you people only protest or hid behind your Key boards .....
> 
> Why should Egypt deal with Pakistan in that plan while it can deal with China ( the main source ) ...
> As for wars with Israel .... yes we have been defeated then we smashed them and took our lands back just after 6 years .... but as you Israeli/ Turkish NATO state lovers .... don’t see the whole picture.....
> 
> BTW
> Have Americans stopped killing your citizens up by drones inside your national soil .... without your knowledge....!?*
> 
> 
> 
> *I forgot to mention that Rafal deal come with a loan from French Banks in order to keep the deal going and avoid canceling it for any reason like what happened for the Russian Mistrals .....
> 
> try to read and learn ...!*


And another one comes along with bold writing.
Egypt cares for al quds...what planet are you on. Egypt works with israel on killing Palestinians. Pakistan doesn't have relations with Israel like you pathetic slave to the jews arabs. We protest behind keyboards...now the sand between your ears is clear. No wonder the term STUPID ARAB is so popular in the west and your Zionist masters.
Dumbo..pakistan own 58% of the aircraft...but arab sentiment is hurt by dealing g with pakistan because losers like you cannot accept we are not pathetic like you. Israelis are right. Arabs cant fight. They can just talk. Now run along my little pharaoh. Go build a pyramid.

Ps turkey is the only one that speaks for the Palestinians. You sisi is busy cleaning saudi and israeli boots with his tongue.



Amun said:


> *So much ignorance..... not a single info about the plan ..... I know many of you Pakistanis here are pro Israel & Turkish NATO state ..... but be more rational ..... Egypt is the only country that cares about Alquds ..... you people only protest or hid behind your Key boards .....
> 
> Why should Egypt deal with Pakistan in that plan while it can deal with China ( the main source ) ...
> As for wars with Israel .... yes we have been defeated then we smashed them and took our lands back just after 6 years .... but as you Israeli/ Turkish NATO state lovers .... don’t see the whole picture.....
> 
> BTW
> Have Americans stopped killing your citizens up by drones inside your national soil .... without your knowledge....!?*
> 
> 
> 
> *I forgot to mention that Rafal deal come with a loan from French Banks in order to keep the deal going and avoid canceling it for any reason like what happened for the Russian Mistrals .....
> 
> try to read and learn ...!*


Iqra was the 1st lesson of islam...if you dumb Bedouin hadnt left reading you would make your own aircraft Instead of buying from France. Israel humiliated you daily...dont you read that little arab man?



Philip the Arab said:


> There isn't because Egypt has not had it's defense expo yet. Somebody made a video detailing benefits it would do for Egyptian industry.


Egypt should buy what's good for egypt.
What annoys me is stupid here who mix stuff up.
They forget how during the Suez crossing the Egyptians double crossed jordan and syria by cutting g communications in the middle of war



wali87 said:


> Block3s are a natural solution to Egyptian air force’s longstanding problem, BVR capability. all those f16s and no aim120s. US won’t sell them and Russian ones aren’t reliable enough. Jf17 armed with AESA and pl15 would we be a game changer for Egypt. They can even afford it!


No no let these dumb Bedouin beg scraps from gora shahib.

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## Amun

PakFactor said:


> I have no idea where you picked up your garage information. JF-17 is designed by an Air Force to do what needs to be done, and has shown it’s effectiveness as as a air to air fighter during our assault on India last year. JF-17 is a multi role fighter can be used in any role. I suggest you learn more about this plane rather than making stupid assumptions.
> 
> As for you talking about an effective Air Force, Egypt, by no measure is an effective force even when you had the latest equipment your military failed on all fronts. Rather not just Egypt, all Arab Air Forces, have failed just having some F-16s and again latest Russian fighters will not save you.
> 
> Also, globally very few air forces are even effective in war and looked at for training etc. and Pakistan Air Force is one of them. I have yet to see any Africa / Middle Eastern Air Force being taken seriously.
> 
> Suggest you learn more before opening your mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli through a peace deal gave you back Sinai and other territories you’ve lost, they were at your door step Cairo, and their was not a thing you can do about it. You couldn’t hold a country the size of my fish bowl back, and you talk smack about our forces which is holding back a country 7x our size. Lol.
> 
> Had you cared about this so called Al Quds; which I don’t care about at all, you would have armed and taken care of the Palestinians and not help Israel enforce the blockade so your hypocrites right there. Also your Arab policies and wars made things worse for the Palestinians. Hell if they had two neurons firing they should have joined Israel by now and hit Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt as retribution by now.





Trango Towers said:


> And another one comes along with bold writing.
> Egypt cares for al quds...what planet are you on. Egypt works with israel on killing Palestinians. Pakistan doesn't have relations with Israel like you pathetic slave to the jews arabs. We protest behind keyboards...now the sand between your ears is clear. No wonder the term STUPID ARAB is so popular in the west and your Zionist masters.
> Dumbo..pakistan own 58% of the aircraft...but arab sentiment is hurt by dealing g with pakistan because losers like you cannot accept we are not pathetic like you. Israelis are right. Arabs cant fight. They can just talk. Now run along my little pharaoh. Go build a pyramid.
> 
> Ps turkey is the only one that speaks for the Palestinians. You sisi is busy cleaning saudi and israeli boots with his tongue.
> 
> 
> Iqra was the 1st lesson of islam...if you dumb Bedouin hadnt left reading you would make your own aircraft Instead of buying from France. Israel humiliated you daily...dont you read that little arab man?
> 
> 
> Egypt should buy what's good for egypt.
> What annoys me is stupid here who mix stuff up.
> They forget how during the Suez crossing the Egyptians double crossed jordan and syria by cutting g communications in the middle of war
> 
> 
> No no let these dumb Bedouin beg scraps from gora shahib.



*both of you are just an example of why Pakistan should take care of economy and education ....

one of you said he don’t care about Muslims first Qibla ( Alqksa) ..... but the other cares a lot about Palestinian.... 

Both are so ignorant to know that the only country around Israel that didn’t do massacres against Palestinians is Egypt and they are not in camps ... they are welcomed .... Palestinians slaughtered in Israel,Lebanon, Syria and Jordan except Egypt.

Ignorance continued by saying That The NATO country of Turkey cares about Palestine 

as you ignorant people ... you don’t know that the first Islamic country that recognized Israel is your Masters Khalifas of Turkish NATO .

can you ignorants tell me how many wars That Turkey fought Israel ......?!?! NON .

we have defeated Israel then choosed peace .... we were fighting US not Israel in the last days of 73 war .

Last of all ..... you call an EGYPTIAN a Bedouin ( with respect to our Bedouin brothers ) ..... go read some books to educate yourself. 

I still have respect to my Pakistani friends and don’t want to go deeper.*

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## Trango Towers

Amun said:


> *both of you are just an example of why Pakistan should take care of economy and education ....
> 
> one of you said he don’t care about Muslims first Qibla ( Alqksa) ..... but the other cares a lot about Palestinian....
> 
> Both are so ignorant to know that the only country around Israel that didn’t do massacres against Palestinians is Egypt and they are not in camps ... they are welcomed .... Palestinians slaughtered in Israel,Lebanon, Syria and Jordan except Egypt.
> 
> Ignorance continued by saying That The NATO country of Turkey cares about Palestine
> 
> as you ignorant people ... you don’t know that the first Islamic country that recognized Israel is your Masters Khalifas of Turkish NATO .
> 
> can you ignorants tell me how many wars That Turkey fought Israel ......?!?! NON .
> 
> we have defeated Israel then choosed peace .... we were fighting US not Israel in the last days of 73 war .
> 
> Last of all ..... you call an EGYPTIAN a Bedouin ( with respect to our Bedouin brothers ) ..... go read some books to educate yourself.
> 
> I still have respect to my Pakistani friends and don’t want to go deeper.*


Lecture us on economy and education when the Egyptians catch up with us.
You talk about al Quds and Palestine...yet you acted about neither...you should die of shame...all you talk of is Arab this Arab that...but you are cowards in front of the jews. They took al Quds from you and you are talking. Shame Arabi shame. Lanat is upon you, pharaonic people.
So Egypt didn't massacre Palestinians but massacred Egyptians only a few years ago. Your illegal government of America's favorite dictator (trumps words not mine) Sisi. That was not a massacre. So you judge you goodness by not doing a massacre...what a Bedouin jahil you are.
You are just pissed at turkey because you Arabs are in bed with Israel and turkey hates Israel. Remember you double-crossed the Muslims of turkey to help the kaffir English Lawrence of arabia...so Allah gave you the jews...enjoy my dumbest little African pharaoh. Jews kick your *** every day. They humiliate you and you are talking. But that's what your fathers did. Your grandfathers also talked. Useless people.
Respect for your Bedouin...sorry you are Abu jahils. Your kunya. Remember it and use it

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## Defense Reader

All of my seniors & respected members please stop further discussion about Arab & Ajam stick to thread please. I read all pages of the thread & found to much anguish replies from both side.
It is humble request please.

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## Trango Towers

Defense Reader said:


> All of my seniors & respected members please stop further discussion about Arab & Ajam stick to thread please. I read all pages of the thread & found to much anguish replies from both side.
> It is humble request please.


I am good with that. I just wish when people come to PDF they should know that if you abuse us we will give it back

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## Amun

Trango Towers said:


> Lecture us on economy and education when the Egyptians catch up with us.
> You talk about al Quds and Palestine...yet you acted about neither...you should die of shame...all you talk of is Arab this Arab that...but you are cowards in front of the jews. They took al Quds from you and you are talking. Shame Arabi shame. Lanat is upon you, pharaonic people.
> So Egypt didn't massacre Palestinians but massacred Egyptians only a few years ago. Your illegal government of America's favorite dictator (trumps words not mine) Sisi. That was not a massacre. So you judge you goodness by not doing a massacre...what a Bedouin jahil you are.
> You are just pissed at turkey because you Arabs are in bed with Israel and turkey hates Israel. Remember you double-crossed the Muslims of turkey to help the kaffir English Lawrence of arabia...so Allah gave you the jews...enjoy my dumbest little African pharaoh. Jews kick your *** every day. They humiliate you and you are talking. But that's what your fathers did. Your grandfathers also talked. Useless people.
> Respect for your Bedouin...sorry you are Abu jahils. Your kunya. Remember it and use it





Trango Towers said:


> I am good with that. I just wish when people come to PDF they should know that if you abuse us we will give it back



A lot of other ignorance ..... so you as a Pakistani which is a puppet for the Turks saying that Turkey which is a NATO country that helped crusaders to invade your neighbors Muslims of Afghanistan .... saying that Egypt which is the Only Muslim country that actually defeated Israel is pro Israel...... what a brainwashed ignorant....!!

just as an example for your ignorance....

Egyptian GDP ( PPP) 2019 is 1.4 Trillions USD with population of 100 M 
Pakistani GDP ( PPP) 2019 is 1.1 Trillions USD with population of 214 M 

Egyptian GDP per Capita is 2,600 USD
Pakistani GDP per Capita is 1,600 USD 

both countries need more work and dedication rather than big mouths like yours ...
But as you see The Egyptian Economy is doing outstanding performance in the recent 4 years .....

I wish all the best for my Pakistani brothers and sisters..... and don’t follow big mouths and keyboard fighters like you.


If this PDF is exclusive for Pakistanis like you who are feeling inferior to the Turks and don’t need other nationalities to log in .... Let the MODs tell us....

but I don’t think so ..... I have met here many respectful Pakistani Members who welcoming others ..... but don’t think that i will leave the members and visitors seeing your false propaganda and let you go .

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## The SC

sami_1 said:


> Ha ha ha ha
> It is clear that there is a real problem for the Pakistanis. They deal hostile against the Egyptians, perhaps due to other things, sympathy for the terrorist groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and also as a result of their sympathy for the Turks, so we find an unfriendly tone for dealing.
> 
> 
> To clarify a very important point, the JF-17 failed to attract the attention of any real or effective air force, even the Pakistanis themselves turned it into a ground attack by using Israeli scoring ASELPOD with a Turkish name.
> View attachment 622624
> 
> 
> The plane is modest and Egypt used it as a tool to obtain the best MiG-Mi 29 planes with various armament and also a continuous development program for it followed by obtaining the SU-35
> Malaysia, Azerbaijan and other countries put it in comparison with the advanced training planes yak-130,
> M346
> Argentina favored the T-50 advanced training plane
> 
> Even Qatar was considering replacing it with Alpha jet
> 
> And the fact that Egypt had 45 Alpha jet and the JF-17B is a good alternative to the Alpha jet training plane if we take into account that the JF-17B was sold to Myanmar at a price of $ 16 million for 16 aircraft, therefore Egypt can get this plane at a better price less than the Pakistani assessments in Failed plane pricing because simply there is stiff competition from competing training planes, the Russians supply the YAk-130 radar BARS-130 even if it is not AESA radar but it will also keep the plane's low pricing of munitions at $ 15.5 million
> We will not talk about the competing M346 plane that Italy has offered for the JF-17 less advanced electronic equipment
> We will not talk about the Chinese competition in the FTC-2000G plane, which is priced at 10 million dollars, and it will be exported by the WS-13 to raise its capabilities to the level of the Pakistani plane, but at a much lower cost.
> View attachment 622627
> 
> Let us invite Egypt to be convinced of the JF-17 as an advanced training plane that in this case you may be interested in against M346 / YAK-130 / T-7A
> View attachment 622628
> 
> 
> 
> Away from the Pakistani national pride, but all the global air force does not accept the Pakistani JF-17 , and the Pakistanis themselves feel a need to fight the reality of facing the best aircraft of the Indian Air Force.
> 
> Egypt, if there is any benefit in the Pakistani plane, that it was ignorant of a year 2003


The benefit for Egypt is in manufacturing the JF-17 block III locally instead of the K-8.. just the production line should be updated..TOT for some Chinese missiles and Pakistani cruise missile can be of great benefit too.. I believe 100 JF-17 Block III produced locally ( The cost might be 2/3 to1/2 the sale price..$20 million a piece is not bad at all for the block III) will be a good addition to the Egyptian airforce..Mostly if we consider Hi-Low tiers..There are almost 100 F-16s to be either upgraded or retired.. and IMHO if the cost of upgrading them is more than producing a modern new fighter locally with all the benefits it might entail..and with no new US advanced air to air missiles and other modern weapons.. Then the choice is very clear.. JF-17 block III..



PakFactor said:


> I have no idea where you picked up your garage information. JF-17 is designed by an Air Force to do what needs to be done, and has shown it’s effectiveness as as a air to air fighter during our assault on India last year. JF-17 is a multi role fighter can be used in any role. I suggest you learn more about this plane rather than making stupid assumptions.
> 
> As for you talking about an effective Air Force, Egypt, by no measure is an effective force even when you had the latest equipment your military failed on all fronts. Rather not just Egypt, all Arab Air Forces, have failed just having some F-16s and again latest Russian fighters will not save you.
> 
> Also, globally very few air forces are even effective in war and looked at for training etc. and Pakistan Air Force is one of them. I have yet to see any Africa / Middle Eastern Air Force being taken seriously.
> 
> Suggest you learn more before opening your mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli through a peace deal gave you back Sinai and other territories you’ve lost, they were at your door step Cairo, and their was not a thing you can do about it. You couldn’t hold a country the size of my fish bowl back, and you talk smack about our forces which is holding back a country 7x our size. Lol.
> 
> Had you cared about this so called Al Quds; which I don’t care about at all, you would have armed and taken care of the Palestinians and not help Israel enforce the blockade so your hypocrites right there. Also your Arab policies and wars made things worse for the Palestinians. Hell if they had two neurons firing they should have joined Israel by now and hit Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt as retribution by now.


That is too much ignorance in one post my friend..You should educate yourself about topics you have no idea about.. I suggest Many threads here on PDF about Arab -Usraeli wars.. some I have posted a while ago.. some by other members..
First word in Koran..read
اقرأ
اقرأ
اقرأ
اقرأ​

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## Trango Towers

Amun said:


> A lot of other ignorance ..... so you as a Pakistani which is a puppet for the Turks saying that Turkey which is a NATO country that helped crusaders to invade your neighbors Muslims of Afghanistan .... saying that Egypt which is the Only Muslim country that actually defeated Israel is pro Israel...... what a brainwashed ignorant....!!
> 
> just as an example for your ignorance....
> 
> Egyptian GDP ( PPP) 2019 is 1.4 Trillions USD with population of 100 M
> Pakistani GDP ( PPP) 2019 is 1.1 Trillions USD with population of 214 M
> 
> Egyptian GDP per Capita is 2,600 USD
> Pakistani GDP per Capita is 1,600 USD
> 
> both countries need more work and dedication rather than big mouths like yours ...
> But as you see The Egyptian Economy is doing outstanding performance in the recent 4 years .....
> 
> I wish all the best for my Pakistani brothers and sisters..... and don’t follow big mouths and keyboard fighters like you.
> 
> 
> If this PDF is exclusive for Pakistanis like you who are feeling inferior to the Turks and don’t need other nationalities to log in .... Let the MODs tell us....
> 
> but I don’t think so ..... I have met here many respectful Pakistani Members who welcoming others ..... but don’t think that i will leave the members and visitors seeing your false propaganda and let you go .


see a mark of a jahil is when someone say ok to ending bullsh1t you carry on..
we refused to fire on the Turks in 194-1918 war when you sided with kaffirs...yes kaffirs and now Allah has given you yahood to rule over you ungrateful slaves.
now f off and worship the jews that are your masters after all.
Turks are our brothers.....way better than a stupid Pharoah who lost their entire airforce in a day and talks rubbish here..

bye bye slave of the jews

here is a direct comparison of economy read and weep
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/egypt/pakistan

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## Armchair

I think @MastanKhan has a good point. Kudos to him being a pro salesman. Pak shouldn't advertise the JF-17 as "cheap". It's not a positive psychological factor. Instead, discussing low labour costs makes it far more appealing.

If I were in charge of marketing, I would have gone all out marketing the JF-17 to Erdogan, with a high level team headed by Imran Khan himself. They have a clear need for a capable multirole aircraft right now, without strings attached.

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## Genghis khan1

Armchair said:


> I think @MastanKhan has a good point. Kudos to him being a pro salesman. Pak shouldn't advertise the JF-17 as "cheap". It's not a positive psychological factor. Instead, discussing low labour costs makes it far more appealing.
> 
> If I were in charge of marketing, I would have gone all out marketing the JF-17 to Erdogan, with a high level team headed by Imran Khan himself. They have a clear need for a capable multirole aircraft right now, without strings attached.


Even a cheap whore don’t like to be called a Cheap. Cheap = low Quality = substandard. 

Pull JF-17 out of market. Add some bells and whistles, create new image and re market it with like block 3 SE (super Eagal) type nonsense. Double the price and wait for idiots to line up.

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## loanranger

Genghis khan1 said:


> Even a cheap whore don’t like to be called a Cheap. Cheap = low Quality = substandard.
> 
> Pull JF-17 out of market. Add some bells and whistles, create new image and re market it with like block 3 SE (super Eagal) type nonsense. Double the price and wait for idiots to line up.


Haha sadly these are not cars which normal people can buy. These jets are evaluated extensively by seversl idiots themselves. Jets don't need advertisement. Their performance in real life and politics determines the sales.

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## sami_1

There is a technical problem with Chinese fighters
Egypt is simply the k-8e. There are high complaints about the level of quality and Egypt was forced to develop it several times, which gave a poor reputation to the Chinese planes in general in Egypt. Egypt found itself spending on the Chinese planes a long time and a great effort to make them with our minimum quality level we need 

We have already mentioned that Egypt tried the JF-17 and Egyptian pilots tested it and did not find it suitable for a fighter with the level of hostilities of Egypt to countries like Israel, Turkey and Iran, so Egypt rejected it completely.

The story of the plane JF-17 block III Pakistanis themselves were disappointed in the plane because it did not provide significant development that would take it out of the level of an advanced training plane
What you will benefit from a 4,000 hour flying fighter and an aluminum air frame 

What is the technical level that will benefit or prolong the Egyptian industry for a backward plane?

Some people speak on the bird equipped with the SD-10
Some ignore completely different things. Egypt currently has contracted and owned 100 4+ MIG-29M2 , Rafale and Su-35 aircraft.
The stock of BVR rockets in Egypt is much larger than that of any country in the region, primarily from the different types 
EVEN MBDA offer for Egypt new local production line for requirements for air/air ,air / surface an surface / surface missiles




Which is better, producing the MiG 35 or cooperating with the Russians in fighting a new fifth generation, or even FC-31

it is easy Chinese offer FC-31 & L-15W/B

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bro you can flex all you want with GDP and Arab superiority. But the fact is we have love and respect for Turks because they treat us with love and respect. Therefore, we return same vibe. 

If you snap out of your Arab superiroity and stop mistreating Ajam then you will also enjoy same respect.

BTW Pakistanis often treat Arabs with respect in spirit of brotherhood but sadly Arabs are too mired in their superiority complex to realize.


Amun said:


> A lot of other ignorance ..... so you as a Pakistani which is a puppet for the Turks saying that Turkey which is a NATO country that helped crusaders to invade your neighbors Muslims of Afghanistan .... saying that Egypt which is the Only Muslim country that actually defeated Israel is pro Israel...... what a brainwashed ignorant....!!
> 
> just as an example for your ignorance....
> 
> Egyptian GDP ( PPP) 2019 is 1.4 Trillions USD with population of 100 M
> Pakistani GDP ( PPP) 2019 is 1.1 Trillions USD with population of 214 M
> 
> Egyptian GDP per Capita is 2,600 USD
> Pakistani GDP per Capita is 1,600 USD
> 
> both countries need more work and dedication rather than big mouths like yours ...
> But as you see The Egyptian Economy is doing outstanding performance in the recent 4 years .....
> 
> I wish all the best for my Pakistani brothers and sisters..... and don’t follow big mouths and keyboard fighters like you.
> 
> 
> If this PDF is exclusive for Pakistanis like you who are feeling inferior to the Turks and don’t need other nationalities to log in .... Let the MODs tell us....
> 
> but I don’t think so ..... I have met here many respectful Pakistani Members who welcoming others ..... but don’t think that i will leave the members and visitors seeing your false propaganda and let you go .

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## Trango Towers

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bro you can flex all you want with GDP and Arab superiority. But the fact is we have love and respect for Turks because they treat us with love and respect. Therefore, we return same vibe.
> 
> If you snap out of your Arab superiroity and stop mistreating Ajam then you will also enjoy same respect.
> 
> BTW Pakistanis often treat Arabs with respect in spirit of brotherhood but sadly Arabs are too mired in their superiority complex to realize.


Sadly egyptians are treated with real respect in the gulf states.. Emirates Oman water and saudi. I have seen it 1st hand


----------



## StormBreaker

Amun said:


> A lot of other ignorance ..... so you as a Pakistani which is a puppet for the Turks saying that Turkey which is a NATO country that helped crusaders to invade your neighbors Muslims of Afghanistan .... saying that Egypt which is the Only Muslim country that actually defeated Israel is pro Israel...... what a brainwashed ignorant....!!
> 
> just as an example for your ignorance....
> 
> Egyptian GDP ( PPP) 2019 is 1.4 Trillions USD with population of 100 M
> Pakistani GDP ( PPP) 2019 is 1.1 Trillions USD with population of 214 M
> 
> Egyptian GDP per Capita is 2,600 USD
> Pakistani GDP per Capita is 1,600 USD
> 
> both countries need more work and dedication rather than big mouths like yours ...
> But as you see The Egyptian Economy is doing outstanding performance in the recent 4 years .....
> 
> I wish all the best for my Pakistani brothers and sisters..... and don’t follow big mouths and keyboard fighters like you.
> 
> 
> If this PDF is exclusive for Pakistanis like you who are feeling inferior to the Turks and don’t need other nationalities to log in .... Let the MODs tell us....
> 
> but I don’t think so ..... I have met here many respectful Pakistani Members who welcoming others ..... but don’t think that i will leave the members and visitors seeing your false propaganda and let you go .


I know how dedicated Egyptians really are to their nation.

We as Pakistanis are mostly patriotic by mouth but most of our actions are hypocritic and destroys the interests of this nation.

You guys on the other hand mostly are working hard, taking every chance you get to lead your nation up & up.

I know Egyptians very well, Good and rude as well, But what matters is loyalty to the nation which is very much available.



Trango Towers said:


> Sadly egyptians are treated with real respect in the gulf states.. Emirates Oman water and saudi. I have seen it 1st hand


Nothing sad in that, Other day, I advised you to open up your mind, get in the reality of the world, taunting and blaming others, venting your frustration on someone who doesn’t need it doesn’t make one better...

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## StormBreaker

PakFactor said:


> A nation that hasn't built anything of significance related to the arms industry is lecturing us Pakistani's? Lol
> 
> This is when you know the down fall of the remaining Muslims is very close.


Hey,

Don’t get all proud for nothing.

You think that co producing and as well as contributing to JF-17 development which is officially a Partnership, makes us a self reliance nation ?

Remember, Never to get proud over little things, Instead, Whenever you do good, consider yourself always inferior, so that you get motivated to do more and more, ultimately becoming a great nation one day.

Not that “yeah, We make thunder, alkhalid”.

@MastanKhan Kon samjhaye ab inhen ?

Victory is always achieved by dedication, hardwork, not self praises and comparing yourself to those who are already below your level in terms of production.

Is it even fair to judge Pak with Egypt in terms of Defence Production ? Definitely not, It is like comparing taste of KFC and Pizza hut, both of different types, Egypt is always a procuring country, we on the other hand are mix, procure, assemble or develop.

So and yes, Don’t belittle other nations, What makes you or me a better muslim than Arabs ? No one is better or worse.
They have adulterers so do we, We drink alcohol so do they, We rob, they rob, We get into nudity so do they.

Don’t fall for the superstitious claims of our senior generation who claim that We Pakistanis are the best and proud muslims coz we aren’t and that is a myth. I have seen better somali muslims, trust me with this.

@Mangus Ortus Novem Sir. Your input

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## MastanKhan

sami_1 said:


> View attachment 622777
> 
> 
> There is a technical problem with Chinese fighters
> Egypt is simply the k-8e. There are high complaints about the level of quality and Egypt was forced to develop it several times, which gave a poor reputation to the Chinese planes in general in Egypt. Egypt found itself spending on the Chinese planes a long time and a great effort to make them with our minimum quality level we need
> 
> We have already mentioned that Egypt tried the JF-17 and Egyptian pilots tested it and did not find it suitable for a fighter with the level of hostilities of Egypt to countries like Israel, Turkey and Iran, so Egypt rejected it completely.
> 
> The story of the plane JF-17 block III Pakistanis themselves were disappointed in the plane because it did not provide significant development that would take it out of the level of an advanced training plane
> What you will benefit from a 4,000 hour flying fighter and an aluminum air frame
> 
> What is the technical level that will benefit or prolong the Egyptian industry for a backward plane?
> 
> Some people speak on the bird equipped with the SD-10
> Some ignore completely different things. Egypt currently has contracted and owned 100 4+ MIG-29M2 , Rafale and Su-35 aircraft.
> The stock of BVR rockets in Egypt is much larger than that of any country in the region, primarily from the different types
> EVEN MBDA offer for Egypt new local production line for requirements for air/air ,air / surface an surface / surface missiles
> View attachment 622788
> 
> Which is better, producing the MiG 35 or cooperating with the Russians in fighting a new fifth generation, or even FC-31
> 
> it is easy Chinese offer FC-31 & L-15W/B



Hi,

Welcome to the forum---.

You are correct in what you wrote---.

At the end of the day---you have to be satisfied with your procurement---.

Anything lesser will not provide any justification of purchase as your heart would not be in it because you already know it is inferior to your needs & usage.

But we are in a different position---. The JF17 has increased our utility multifolds---. We know that this is The Best that we have & this is the best we are going to get---and so our mindset training & utility of this aircraft would be totally different than your---.

There is a reason that we looked at the Gripen and made a copy---. Both the swedish air force and the Pak air force have a similar mindset---get the most out of the least--. Both these warriors look at weapons in a similar manner---so the function and utility of both would be the same---. We maybe lagging behind a tad bit---but not for long.

In mid 90's I went to buy a desk top---. I asked the seller " how good this computer is "---he replied " as good you are at using it "---.

But this mindset of ours has also created a hurdle in selling this aircraft---because our air force is looking to sell this aircraft with how they see it---.

Which is a big NO NO in sales 101---. When you are selling---look at your product thru the eyes of the buyer---what he sees---what wants to see in it---what his utility is---what Features & Benefits he wants in it---.

And as long you have the ability to go buy the Rafale---the SU35 the Mig 29 at your whims just like that---you will never find the JF17 suitable to your needs---. It really does not fit in to your picture frame---.

PAF management was extremely NAIVE to present this aircraft for sale to countries ahead of time and not with the right bells and whistles---.



PakFactor said:


> A nation who teamed up with others to take on a fish bowl size country and that hasn't built anything of significance related to the arms industry is lecturing us Pakistani's? Lol
> 
> This is when you know the down fall of the remaining Muslims is very close.
> 
> 
> 
> Please, I have enough knowledge and learned enough about Arab failures in war from reading and interacting with those who fought on both sides of the conflict.



Hi,

But still they are the END USERS---. We should be glad that they have not manufactured this item---so it still gives us an opportunity to make something that they would want---.

Why do you people think that I had written about a 25% larger JF17 for so many years---.

We the pakistanis know the fight between the Sabre & The Gnat and the results---. That is why we built this little light weight fighter / strike aircraft that could disappear in ground clutter at low level flight---.

We just need to update this aircraft with a WESTERN PACKAGE---.

We can get all the EW package from Italy and Spain & Turkey---but the engine---we won't. Because France / UK would want to sell their product---but after the COVID is over---maybe to boost the economy they might.

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## StormBreaker

sami_1 said:


> View attachment 622777
> 
> 
> There is a technical problem with Chinese fighters
> Egypt is simply the k-8e. There are high complaints about the level of quality and Egypt was forced to develop it several times, which gave a poor reputation to the Chinese planes in general in Egypt. Egypt found itself spending on the Chinese planes a long time and a great effort to make them with our minimum quality level we need
> 
> We have already mentioned that Egypt tried the JF-17 and Egyptian pilots tested it and did not find it suitable for a fighter with the level of hostilities of Egypt to countries like Israel, Turkey and Iran, so Egypt rejected it completely.
> 
> The story of the plane JF-17 block III Pakistanis themselves were disappointed in the plane because it did not provide significant development that would take it out of the level of an advanced training plane
> What you will benefit from a 4,000 hour flying fighter and an aluminum air frame
> 
> What is the technical level that will benefit or prolong the Egyptian industry for a backward plane?
> 
> Some people speak on the bird equipped with the SD-10
> Some ignore completely different things. Egypt currently has contracted and owned 100 4+ MIG-29M2 , Rafale and Su-35 aircraft.
> The stock of BVR rockets in Egypt is much larger than that of any country in the region, primarily from the different types
> EVEN MBDA offer for Egypt new local production line for requirements for air/air ,air / surface an surface / surface missiles
> View attachment 622788
> 
> Which is better, producing the MiG 35 or cooperating with the Russians in fighting a new fifth generation, or even FC-31
> 
> it is easy Chinese offer FC-31 & L-15W/B


Russia doesn’t offer good BVRs, they are useless and lagging behind as to what others have to offer mainly MBDA, Raytheon and China.

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Welcome to the forum---.
> 
> You are correct in what you wrote---.
> 
> At the end of the day---you have to be satisfied with your procurement---.
> 
> Anything lesser will not provide any justification of purchase as your heart would not be in it because you already know it is inferior to your needs & usage.
> 
> But we are in a different position---. The JF17 has increased our utility multifolds---. We know that this is The Best that we have & this is the best we are going to get---and so our mindset training & utility of this aircraft would be totally different than your---.
> 
> In mid 90's I went to buy a desk top---. I asked the seller " how good this computer is "---he replied " as good you are at using it "---.
> 
> But this mindset of ours has also created a hurdle in selling this aircraft---because our air force is looking to sell this aircraft with how they see it---.
> 
> Which is a big NO NO in sales 101---. When you are selling---look at your product thru the eyes of the buyer---what he sees---what wants to see in it---what his utility is---what Features & Benefits he wants in it---.
> 
> And as long you have the ability to go buy the Rafale---the SU35 the Mig 29 at your whims just like that---you will never find the JF17 suitable to your needs---. It really does not fit in to your picture frame---.
> 
> PAF management was extremely NAIVE to present this aircraft for sale to countries ahead of time and not with the right bells and whistles---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> But still they are the END USERS---. We should be glad that they have not manufactured this item---so it still gives us an opportunity to make something that they would want---.
> 
> Why do you people think that I had written about a 25% larger JF17 for so many years---.
> 
> We the pakistanis know the fight between the Sabre & The Gnat and the results---. That is why we built this little light weight fighter / strike aircraft that could disappear in ground clutter at low level flight---.
> 
> We just need to update this aircraft with a WESTERN PACKAGE---.
> 
> We can get all the EW package from Italy and Spain & Turkey---but the engine---we won't. Because France / UK would want to sell their product---but after the COVID is over---maybe to boost the economy they might.



True, PAF/PAC did a poor marketing job on a very capable platform; I blame this on the desi mentality of calling anything cheap or discounted it didn't play well into the marketing of this plane. We can fix this issue with Block III and hopefully hire a proper marketing team.

Only issue I had with posters above is their lack of technical knowledge and calling it a trainer plane? No one reputable defense analyst has said anything of the sort, and even if Egyptian AF Personal said it these members should realize their officers hold no weight in giving any analysis. Guess we shouldn't worry about the opinion of sheep.

But as your said for us this plane suits out needs due to our projected theater of war.

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## StormBreaker

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) I believe, if by any chance China and Egypt sort out a deal for Block 3, Engine will be the issue and Russia will be the reason. They wouldn’t want Egypt to buy from someone else when they themselves are supplying their Mig-35 and Mig-29 in order to avoid losing a customer and possibly follow up order for Mig-35.

Key is the engine similarity of Thunders and MIG-35 that why Block lll will be most suitable for Egyptian Light Single engine need. Local maintenance and overhaul will be the key player.

What do you say ? Russia will give or will not ?



PakFactor said:


> True, PAF/PAC did a poor marketing job on a very capable platform; I blame this on the desi mentality of calling anything cheap or discounted it didn't play well into the marketing of this plane. We can fix this issue with Block III and hopefully hire a proper marketing team.
> 
> Only issue I had with posters above is their lack of technical knowledge and calling it a trainer plane? No one reputable defense analyst has said anything of the sort, and even if Egyptian AF Personal said it these members should realize their officers hold no weight in giving any analysis. Guess we shouldn't worry about the opinion of sheep.
> 
> But as your said for us this plane suits out needs due to our projected theater of war.


Precisely, @MastanKhan Might have a lifetime experience of selling cars,

When one markets the product, You have to bring in excitement and attraction towards the product in the customer.

Forget all the things you feel about it, rather think of it with the requirements of the certain air force and how beautifully this product can satisfy the requirements with those regards.

This cheap sheep drama is typical subcontinent mentality...

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## MastanKhan

PakFactor said:


> True, PAF/PAC did a poor marketing job on a very capable platform; I blame this on the desi mentality of calling anything cheap or discounted it didn't play well into the marketing of this plane. We can fix this issue with Block III and hopefully hire a proper marketing team.
> 
> Only issue I had with posters above is their lack of technical knowledge and calling it a trainer plane? No one reputable defense analyst has said anything of the sort, and even if Egyptian AF Personal said it these members should realize their officers hold no weight in giving any analysis. Guess we shouldn't worry about the opinion of sheep.
> 
> But as your said for us this plane suits out needs due to our projected theater of war.



Hi,

Regarding the two seater---we created this problem ie the Paf---first they stated we did not need a two seater---our pilots are capable to get into the single seater and fly comfortably---.

When they manufactured the 2 seater---they touted it is a training platform as well and not as a strike platform---.

Again the Paf lowered the expectations of this aircraft out of negligence and incompetence of thought and presentation---.

Now after all this---it would not be easy to present this platform as a strike option---.

So---we cannot blame the egyptians for what they believe in about this aircraft---.

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## The SC

flameboard said:


> My bad I was referring to the first post
> 
> BTW Where’s the article showing Egyptian interest in 2020


Is block III here yet?
These news came 2 years ago when Pakistan announced the start of the new design for the JF-17 block III..


----------



## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I believe, if by any chance China and Egypt sort out a deal for Block 3, Engine will be the issue and Russia will be the reason. They wouldn’t want Egypt to buy from someone else when they themselves are supplying their Mig-35 and Mig-29 in order to avoid losing a customer and possibly follow up order for Mig-35.
> 
> Key is the engine similarity of Thunders and MIG-35 that why Block lll will be most suitable for Egyptian Light Single engine need. Local maintenance and overhaul will be the key player.
> 
> What do you say ? Russia will give or will not ?


Did you know that Egypt is a comprehensive strategic partner of Russia..?
Hence the Engines won't be a problem..and the commonality with the Mig's engine will just make the maintenance much easier..

Mig-35 or M/M2 advanced..are medium weight fighters..while the JF-17 all blocks is a light weight fighter, so even when Egypt buys another 50 Mig-35.. there is is still room in the EAF for a light weight fighter..

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## Maxpane

StormBreaker said:


> Lol, If you think Pakistan will end, You are delusional.
> 
> Indus valley civilization is even older than Your Egyptian Civilization which is full of ruthless kings.
> 
> Our nation was born to be leader, Unlike you.
> 
> Talk to me with the same words in 10 years.
> 
> Remember, You have a small foe, You have a military on par with Pakistan, while Pakistan has a foe 15 times larger than Your foe israel.
> 
> We have kept our enemy on toe. Just imagine what we would have done with your enemy. Have you forgotten how your neighbour jordan asked for PAF pilots and how our Pilot SaifulAzam fu’ked up IAF jets ?
> 
> Go get a life.
> 
> 
> I will make sure to bring this post back to your face once A thunder shoots down IAF rafale in future, same rafale that you are purchasing.
> 
> Get ready...





StormBreaker said:


> Lol, If you think Pakistan will end, You are delusional.
> 
> Indus valley civilization is even older than Your Egyptian Civilization which is full of ruthless kings.
> 
> Our nation was born to be leader, Unlike you.
> 
> Talk to me with the same words in 10 years.
> 
> Remember, You have a small foe, You have a military on par with Pakistan, while Pakistan has a foe 15 times larger than Your foe israel.
> 
> We have kept our enemy on toe. Just imagine what we would have done with your enemy which is tiny and an embarrassment for your “Mighty Egypt”. Have you forgotten how your neighbour jordan asked for PAF pilots and how our Pilot SaifulAzam fu’ked up IAF jets ?
> 
> Go get a life.
> 
> 
> I will make sure to bring this post back to your face once A thunder shoots down IAF rafale in future, same rafale that you are purchasing.
> 
> Get ready...


buddy now you know why tango was angry .

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## BATMAN

The SC said:


> Is block III here yet?
> These news came 2 years ago when Pakistan announced the start of the new design for the JF-17 block III..



they have finalized the design after 3rd prototype. In such case, i believe production is underway.

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## StormBreaker

Maxpane said:


> buddy now you know why tango was angry .


I was pointing out the inaccurate arguments of @Trango Towers , Wasn’t disagreeing with him entirely.

@Trango Towers Bro, You can defend this country all you want as it is our duty to, But also try to do the same thing with professional approach, one that doesnt give a chance for another party to come up with logical arguments.



BATMAN said:


> they have finalized the design after 3rd prototype. In such case, i believe production is underway.


Chacha G,
Tesra prototype abhi kahan bana, or is it that the one which flew was PT-1, And the two being produced this year are PT-2 and PT-3 or the ones being produced this year are the first two serial productions ? As these two will be eventually inducted so I don’t think they are to be called prototypes anymore ?



sami_1 said:


> Ha ha ha ha
> It is clear that there is a real problem for the Pakistanis. They deal hostile against the Egyptians, perhaps due to other things, sympathy for the terrorist groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and also as a result of their sympathy for the Turks, so we find an unfriendly tone for dealing.
> 
> 
> To clarify a very important point, the JF-17 failed to attract the attention of any real or effective air force, even the Pakistanis themselves turned it into a ground attack by using Israeli scoring ASELPOD with a Turkish name.
> View attachment 622624
> 
> 
> The plane is modest and Egypt used it as a tool to obtain the best MiG-Mi 29 planes with various armament and also a continuous development program for it followed by obtaining the SU-35
> Malaysia, Azerbaijan and other countries put it in comparison with the advanced training planes yak-130,
> M346
> Argentina favored the T-50 advanced training plane
> 
> Even Qatar was considering replacing it with Alpha jet
> 
> And the fact that Egypt had 45 Alpha jet and the JF-17B is a good alternative to the Alpha jet training plane if we take into account that the JF-17B was sold to Myanmar at a price of $ 16 million for 16 aircraft, therefore Egypt can get this plane at a better price less than the Pakistani assessments in Failed plane pricing because simply there is stiff competition from competing training planes, the Russians supply the YAk-130 radar BARS-130 even if it is not AESA radar but it will also keep the plane's low pricing of munitions at $ 15.5 million
> We will not talk about the competing M346 plane that Italy has offered for the JF-17 less advanced electronic equipment
> We will not talk about the Chinese competition in the FTC-2000G plane, which is priced at 10 million dollars, and it will be exported by the WS-13 to raise its capabilities to the level of the Pakistani plane, but at a much lower cost.
> View attachment 622627
> 
> Let us invite Egypt to be convinced of the JF-17 as an advanced training plane that in this case you may be interested in against M346 / YAK-130 / T-7A
> View attachment 622628
> 
> 
> 
> Away from the Pakistani national pride, but all the global air force does not accept the Pakistani JF-17 , and the Pakistanis themselves feel a need to fight the reality of facing the best aircraft of the Indian Air Force.
> 
> Egypt, if there is any benefit in the Pakistani plane, that it was ignorant of a year 2003


Oh yeah, 

Why don’t you make up a something better than Thunder yourself instead of begging KSA for money to buy Russian junk ?

No russian BVR or Mikoyan plane is worthy against the might of Israel Air force or Turkey.

Keep throwing away the money at junk, apart from rafales, all your acquisitions are meaningless.

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## Maxpane

StormBreaker said:


> I was pointing out the inaccurate arguments of @Trango Towers , Wasn’t disagreeing with him entirely.
> 
> @Trango Towers Bro, You can defend this country all you want as it is our duty to, But also try to do the same thing with professional approach, one that doesnt give a chance for another party to come up with logical arguments.


bhai there is a saying that always side your brother when he is fighting even when he is wrong but highlight his mistake when he is alone. 
I agree there are lot of bad people in our nation but as a youth like you can change the destiny of our country. Time of baba's has long gone . now you are youth would lead our country. 
As far as egypt is concern its upto them what they want we are not forcing them to buy our junk bvr capable without restriction . they have the oprton to buy mighty jets with full strings of sanction .

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## StormBreaker

Maxpane said:


> bhai there is a saying that always side your brother when he is fighting even when he is wrong but highlight his mistake when he is alone.
> I agree there are lot of bad people in our nation but as a youth like you can change the destiny of our country. Time of baba's has long gone . now you are youth would lead our country.
> As far as egypt is concern its upto them what they want we are not forcing them to buy our junk bvr capable without restriction . they have the oprton to buy mighty jets with full strings of sanction .


Mein ne pehle paray nai the is bewaqoof ke posts.

@Trango Towers Mazrat but do take the lessons as well, everything aside


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## The SC

BATMAN said:


> they have finalized the design after 3rd prototype. In such case, i believe production is underway.


Yes I believe so too..
Can't wait to see it flying..


----------



## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> I was pointing out the inaccurate arguments of @Trango Towers , Wasn’t disagreeing with him entirely.
> 
> @Trango Towers Bro, You can defend this country all you want as it is our duty to, But also try to do the same thing with professional approach, one that doesnt give a chance for another party to come up with logical arguments.
> 
> 
> Chacha G,
> Tesra prototype abhi kahan bana, or is it that the one which flew was PT-1, And the two being produced this year are PT-2 and PT-3 or the ones being produced this year are the first two serial productions ? As these two will be eventually inducted so I don’t think they are to be called prototypes anymore ?
> 
> 
> Oh yeah,
> 
> Why don’t you make up a something better than Thunder yourself instead of begging KSA for money to buy Russian junk ?
> 
> 
> No russian BVR or Mikoyan plane is worthy against the might of Israel Air force or Turkey.
> 
> Keep throwing away the money at junk, apart from rafales, all your acquisitions are meaningless.








Helwan HA-300 was a single-engine, delta-wing, light supersonic interceptor aircraft developed in Egypt during the 1960s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helwan_HA-300

Work on the Egyptian interceptor began in 1959

















And for your information..Egypt fought Usrael and won the 1973 Ramadan war with mig-21 alone Against the American F-4 phantom , Mirage and sky hawks..these Migs had no radar, could stay less than half an hour in flight and could carry only two air to air missiles.. it is the men who fought..not the machine..You can just imagine what EAF is now..with F-16..still with a 50 Km bvr.. but mostly with Rafale, Mig-35 and SU-35 all with excellent bvr capabilities....Just saying!



BATMAN said:


> You may go to China, if that satisfy your ego!
> PAC is anyway occupied with other buyers, who trust Pakistan more than China.


Egypt might buy it from China..and Pakistan will still get its cut anyway..
I believe if Egypt buys it..it will be from both..since Pakistan has a good production line and a very good experience at making them in good numbers..hence the know how.. while China will provide the avionics and other tech..

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## StormBreaker

The SC said:


> Helwan HA-300 was a single-engine, delta-wing, light supersonic interceptor aircraft developed in Egypt during the 1960s.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helwan_HA-300
> 
> Work on the Egyptian interceptor began in 1959
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And for your information..Egypt fought Usrael and won the 1973 Ramadan war with mig-21 alone Against the American F-4 phantom , Mirage and sky hawks..these Migs had no radar, could stay less than half an hour in flight and could carry only two air to air missiles.. it is the men who fought..not the machine..You can just imagine what EAF is now..with F-16..still with a 50 Km bvr.. but mostly with Rafale, Mig-35 and SU-35 all with excellent bvr capabilities....Just saying!


Are you Egyptian as well ?

I was criticizing him, not egypt or it’s people. He deserved a slappy post for the nonsense.

And btw Halwan was a third Gen fighter, developed initially by spain but then egypt just took all of it by money and the same workforce complete of spain with german engineers resumed their work.
Mossad stopped the program by threatening the engineers and Egypt had to kneel down sadly...

So nothing extra ordinary here, money talks.

Make something with one’s own technical involvement or Dont call it one’s own achievement.


----------



## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> Are you Egyptian as well ?
> 
> I was criticizing him, not egypt or it’s people. He deserved a slappy post for the nonsense.
> 
> And btw Halwan was a third Gen fighter, developed initially by spain but then egypt just took all of it by money and the same workforce complete of spain with german engineers resumed their work.
> Mossad stopped the program by threatening the engineers and Egypt had to kneel down sadly...
> 
> So nothing extra ordinary here, money talks.
> 
> Make something with one’s own technical involvement or Dont call it one’s own achievement.


It was made by Egyptian Engineers..designed by Wilhelm Messerschmitt..Development of the Egyptian HA-300 started in the test facilities and workshops in Factory No. 36 in Helwan, southeast of Cairo, under the supervision of the Egyptian General Aero Organisation (EGAO), beginning officially in 1959.
The HA-300 was modified for the Egyptian Brandner E-300 engine, whose planned output was to have been 10,600 lbf (47.2 kN) of thrust on afterburner, which would also improve the HA-300's performance..
The Helwan-300 project was cancelled on May 1969. The reason was not publicly stated but financial and political factors likely played a part.

How could you have skipped all this information from the same article..!?

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## BATMAN

StormBreaker said:


> Chacha G,
> Tesra prototype abhi kahan bana, or is it that the one which flew was PT-1, And the two being produced this year are PT-2 and PT-3 or the ones being produced this year are the first two serial productions ? As these two will be eventually inducted so I don’t think they are to be called prototypes anymore ?



I didn't exactly get your question!

What i said is:
The one who's pictures were leaked from some Chinese location was the 3rd prototype and that has been finalized for production.
This was the information from the internet... non of my personal intelligence.
If you have info., of two blk3 being under production this year.. that would be limited serial production category and i calculated nothing different!

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## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> No need for enlightenment, the other day, someone was calling me an arab boot licker for presenting facts in favor of GCC.


I am stating facts..people can do their own search if they want to be enlightened about some topics or subjects..

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## BATMAN

The SC said:


> Just trying to enlighten some people.. maybe they don't know much..


If pdf brigade, have no idea how Israel was pushed back, while once they were at banks of canal Suize, which is 100km from Cairo and why Egypt cherish 10th Ramadan so overwhelmingly.
They better not claim to be expert of Egyptian military and their capabilities.
I my self have read comments on pdf by the declared experts, that Egyptian army is used to sitting in Air-conditioners and good for nothing. While i have seen them patrolling in 50°C in Sinai etc. They are as solid as iron.
Egyptian Airforce pilots are trained from US, how good they are.... may be some Egyptian friend should come and explain to the useless and hateful bunch.
Where i have no doubt... is that in today's date Israel can't even think of going to war with Egypt and why should they! There are no territorial disputes!

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## MastanKhan

The SC said:


> Helwan HA-300 was a single-engine, delta-wing, light supersonic interceptor aircraft developed in Egypt during the 1960s.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helwan_HA-300
> 
> Work on the Egyptian interceptor began in 1959
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And for your information..Egypt fought Usrael and won the 1973 Ramadan war with mig-21 alone Against the American F-4 phantom , Mirage and sky hawks..these Migs had no radar, could stay less than half an hour in flight and could carry only two air to air missiles.. it is the men who fought..not the machine..You can just imagine what EAF is now..with F-16..still with a 50 Km bvr.. but mostly with Rafale, Mig-35 and SU-35 all with excellent bvr capabilities....Just saying!
> 
> 
> Egypt might buy it from China..and Pakistan will still get its cut anyway..
> I believe if Egypt buys it..it will be from both..since Pakistan has a good production line and a very good experience at making them in good numbers..hence the know how.. while China will provide the avionics and other tech..



Hi,

Just looks like the Delta dagger F-102 with taller front landing gear and slight modifications---









The *Helwan HA-300* (Arabic: حلوان ٣٠٠‎) was a single-engine, delta-wing, light supersonic interceptor aircraft developed in Egypt during the 1960s. It was designed by the German aircraft designer Willy Messerschmitt.

At various stages, Spain and India were involved in the development program. Spain was financing two projects, the HA-200 and the *Hispano HA-300*, but cancelled the HA-300 project before a prototype was built due to overruns. Egypt then took over financing, and the program was transferred to Egypt were both it and its engine would be made, and where the aircraft was successfully flown. Near the end of the program, India began financing the development of the E-300 engine for use in the Indian HF-24 Marut jet fighter.

The HA-300 was an ambitious and costly project for Egypt, at a time when it was seeking to expand both its civilian and defence aviation industry. Six aircraft had entered service before the project was terminated in 1969.

Following their defeat at the end of World War II, the West Germans were prohibited from undertaking any research or development related to aircraft until 1955, which left Willy Messerschmitt looking for work. He therefore moved to Spain where he joined Hispano Aviación and started designing an ultralight fighter aircraft in 1951.[1] A lack of funds slowed the aircraft's development and Messerschmitt was able to build only a delta-shaped tailless plywood glider. Towed by a CASA 2.111, the test flight for the glider was prematurely terminated due to instability and the airplane did not become airborne.[2] Due to funding problems and the resultant long development time, Spain abandoned the project in 1960.[3]




Front view of HA-300 showing tailed delta-wing and the undercarriage
Egypt then acquired the design from Hispano Aviación.








BATMAN said:


> If pdf brigade, have no idea how Israel was pushed back, while once they were at banks of canal Suize, which is 100km from Cairo and why Egypt cherish 10th Ramadan so overwhelmingly.
> They better not claim to be expert of Egyptian military and their capabilities.
> I my self have read comments on pdf by the declared experts, that Egyptian army is used to sitting in Air-conditioners and good for nothing. While i have seen them patrolling in 50°C in Sinai etc. They are as solid as iron.
> Egyptian Airforce pilots are trained from US, how good they are.... may be some Egyptian friend should come and explain to the useless and hateful bunch.
> Where i have no doubt... is that in today's date Israel can't even think of going to war with Egypt and why should they! There are no territorial disputes!



Hi,

Well as long the egyptian army kept itself under the umbrella of its sam missiles after crossing the suez---they held good---.

But then The Egypt Pres overruled his air chief and moved the troops forward and that is where the egyptians got routed---.

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## StormBreaker

BATMAN said:


> I didn't exactly get your question!
> 
> What i said is:
> The one who's pictures were leaked from some Chinese location was the 3rd prototype and that has been finalized for production.
> This was the information from the internet... non of my personal intelligence.
> If you have info., of two blk3 being under production this year.. that would be limited serial production category and i calculated nothing different!


No one said it was 3rd prototype of BLOCK 3.

3000 is supposedly first pt of Block 3 which we all saw



BATMAN said:


> If pdf brigade, have no idea how Israel was pushed back, while once they were at banks of canal Suize, which is 100km from Cairo and why Egypt cherish 10th Ramadan so overwhelmingly.
> They better not claim to be expert of Egyptian military and their capabilities.
> I my self have read comments on pdf by the declared experts, that Egyptian army is used to sitting in Air-conditioners and good for nothing. While i have seen them patrolling in 50°C in Sinai etc. They are as solid as iron.
> Egyptian Airforce pilots are trained from US, how good they are.... may be some Egyptian friend should come and explain to the useless and hateful bunch.
> Where i have no doubt... is that in today's date Israel can't even think of going to war with Egypt and why should they! There are no territorial disputes!


I didn’t say such about Egyptian army atleast. After all, they are the powerhouse of Arab countries...

Plus, Egyptians are no regular rich arabs, they are used to hardships and regular tough life.


----------



## The SC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just looks like the Delta dagger F-102 with taller front landing gear and slight modifications---
> 
> View attachment 622882
> View attachment 622883
> 
> 
> The *Helwan HA-300* (Arabic: حلوان ٣٠٠‎) was a single-engine, delta-wing, light supersonic interceptor aircraft developed in Egypt during the 1960s. It was designed by the German aircraft designer Willy Messerschmitt.
> 
> At various stages, Spain and India were involved in the development program. Spain was financing two projects, the HA-200 and the *Hispano HA-300*, but cancelled the HA-300 project before a prototype was built due to overruns. Egypt then took over financing, and the program was transferred to Egypt were both it and its engine would be made, and where the aircraft was successfully flown. Near the end of the program, India began financing the development of the E-300 engine for use in the Indian HF-24 Marut jet fighter.
> 
> The HA-300 was an ambitious and costly project for Egypt, at a time when it was seeking to expand both its civilian and defence aviation industry. Six aircraft had entered service before the project was terminated in 1969.
> 
> Following their defeat at the end of World War II, the West Germans were prohibited from undertaking any research or development related to aircraft until 1955, which left Willy Messerschmitt looking for work. He therefore moved to Spain where he joined Hispano Aviación and started designing an ultralight fighter aircraft in 1951.[1] A lack of funds slowed the aircraft's development and Messerschmitt was able to build only a delta-shaped tailless plywood glider. Towed by a CASA 2.111, the test flight for the glider was prematurely terminated due to instability and the airplane did not become airborne.[2] Due to funding problems and the resultant long development time, Spain abandoned the project in 1960.[3]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front view of HA-300 showing tailed delta-wing and the undercarriage
> Egypt then acquired the design from Hispano Aviación.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Well as long the egyptian army kept itself under the umbrella of its sam missiles after crossing the suez---they held good---.
> 
> But then The Egypt Pres overruled his air chief and moved the troops forward and that is where the egyptians got routed---.


Egyptian Engineers modified the whole design around their own new Engine helped to conceive it by the Austrian designer "Brandner" ..

Then the trap was set already..
Can you believe that The Egyptians would leave a big gap like that open and deserted between the 2nd and 3rd army .. just like that..
and can you believe that Egypt had only 100 000 men army!?

There is a thread here on PDF called "Operation Shamel" ..It shows how IDF was trapped..And the US had to threaten force..

Here is a good read @MastanKhan

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/1973...of-the-gap-comprehensive-chaamil-plan.512349/https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/1973...of-the-gap-comprehensive-chaamil-plan.512349/

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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well as long the egyptian army kept itself under the umbrella of its sam missiles after crossing the suez---they held good---.
> 
> But then The Egypt Pres overruled his air chief and moved the troops forward and that is where the egyptians got routed---.



I have heard that part as well... was it not the earlier war of 1967?
Actually in 1973 Ramadan war Egyptians pushed Israelis back. In any case that's history and Egyptian army and nation have come long way from that point. At least i can confirm the part on technical progress and pilot training. Again war is an integrated affair and can't confirm where Egypt army stands in that sphere.


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## StormBreaker

The SC said:


> Egyptian Engineers modified the whole design around their own new Engine helped to conceive it by the Austrian designer "Brandner" ..
> 
> Then the trap was set already..
> Can you believe that The Egyptians would leave a big gap like that open and deserted between the 2nd and 3rd army .. just like that..
> and can you believe that Egypt had only 100 000 men army!?
> 
> There is a thread here on PDF called "Operation Shamel" ..It shows how IDF was trapped..And the US had to threaten force..


BTW, I meant no disrespect earlier, that guy asked for it. You will find me praising as well as criticizing everyone where necessary, Be it Arabs, Turks, Iran, India, Israel and even My own country. So I am no biased mind.

So enlighten me of how is local Egyptian industry doing recently ?
What are the future plannings ? I have a saying “Egyptians are the Professor Arabs”, like if you want a nerd or a bookworm arab, go to Egypt, you will find many. High scoring and achieving students of Egypt, bright minds.

So it would be really unimpressive if Egypt isn’t working on big things yet.

Like about fighter programs or trainers. About avionics and Joint ventures. Local assemblies.

In terms of aviation only...

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## BATMAN

StormBreaker said:


> No one said it was 3rd prototype of BLOCK 3.
> 
> 3000 is supposedly first pt of Block 3 which we all saw



That's stupid supposedly.


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## StormBreaker

BATMAN said:


> That's stupid supposedly.




You have any evidence that it was 3rd prototype of Block 3 ? No...

So how can you call me or everyone else stupid ?


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## BATMAN

StormBreaker said:


> You have any evidence that it was 3rd prototype of Block 3 ? No...
> 
> So how can you call me or everyone else stupid ?



You are not every one... and neither i call you stupid.
If you think only one prototype lead to blk3 that's stupid thinking. irrespective its you or every one else as in your words.
Go ask the gods of pdf for clarification.
I was also the first one giving out the thrust of upgraded engine, people as well asked me to give proof.
I also predicted about Imran Khan back in early 2000 that he's going to deliver no good to Pakistan... today no one would dare ask for evidence.

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## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> I have heard that part as well... was it not the earlier war of 1967?
> Actually in 1973 Ramadan war Egyptians pushed Israelis back. In any case that's history and Egyptian army and nation have come long way from that point. At least i can confirm the part on technical progress and pilot training. Again war is an integrated affair and can't confirm where Egypt army stands in that sphere.



Hi,

That was in 1973---when Anwer Sadaat was the president and I believe Gen Shzli was the air chief---.

By overruling Shazli---Sadaat chose defeat over the overwhelming victory after crossing the suez---. Did a lots of damage to the egyptian army and air force in the process---.

The mig21's were no match for the american phantoms without the Sam air cover---.

Where the mig21 could stay in the air for 30 minutes---the Phantom would loiter around for hours and the moment the migs were landing desperate to refuel---the Phantoms would pounce on them and take them out---.

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## StormBreaker

BATMAN said:


> You are not every one... and neither i call you stupid.
> If you think only one prototype lead to blk3 that's stupid thinking. irrespective its you or every one else as in your words.
> Go ask the gods of pdf for clarification.
> I was also the first one giving out the thrust of upgraded engine, people as well asked me to give proof.
> I also predicted about Imran Khan back in early 2000 that he's going to deliver no good to Pakistan... today no one would dare ask for evidence.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @aliyusuf Is 3000 the third prototype of Block 3 or First or second ?


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## Amun

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bro you can flex all you want with GDP and Arab superiority. But the fact is we have love and respect for Turks because they treat us with love and respect. Therefore, we return same vibe.
> 
> If you snap out of your Arab superiroity and stop mistreating Ajam then you will also enjoy same respect.
> 
> BTW Pakistanis often treat Arabs with respect in spirit of brotherhood but sadly Arabs are too mired in their superiority complex to realize.





StormBreaker said:


> I know how dedicated Egyptians really are to their nation.
> 
> We as Pakistanis are mostly patriotic by mouth but most of our actions are hypocritic and destroys the interests of this nation.
> 
> You guys on the other hand mostly are working hard, taking every chance you get to lead your nation up & up.
> 
> I know Egyptians very well, Good and rude as well, But what matters is loyalty to the nation which is very much available.
> 
> 
> Nothing sad in that, Other day, I advised you to open up your mind, get in the reality of the world, taunting and blaming others, venting your frustration on someone who doesn’t need it doesn’t make one better...



*full respect to you and all nations... Muslims or not ..... we as Egyptians don’t have any negative feelings regarding any nation.... we are peaceful Nation but if any one attacked us and thinking he will not suffer  that is totally wrong be it Crusaders, Mongols , Israel Or Turks ..

we don’t have too much info about Pakistan......
our perception for Pakistan is a state that has National pride ..... a state that When it’s No1 enemy has Nuks ..... Pakistanis work day and night to reach to the knowledge of the Nuclear bomb..... 
a country that has so religious people..... that’s all we know all positive things about Pakistan .... 

So what I’m seeing here is shocking 

that level of hostility then going down to insulting Egyptians ... and make fun of our National sacrifices in fighting Israel/ US in order to gain some Turkish likes .... forgive me brothers .. it requires response.*

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## The SC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was in 1973---when Anwer Sadaat was the president and I believe Gen Shzli was the air chief---.
> 
> By overruling Shazli---Sadaat chose defeat over the overwhelming victory after crossing the suez---. Did a lots of damage to the egyptian army and air force in the process---.
> 
> The mig21's were no match for the american phantoms without the Sam air cover---.
> 
> Where the mig21 could stay in the air for 30 minutes---the Phantom would loiter around for hours and the moment the migs were landing desperate to refuel---the Phantoms would pounce on them and take them out---.


The Air Chief was Mubarak the late president..Chazli was the chief of staff..
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/1973...of-the-gap-comprehensive-chaamil-plan.512349/
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/1973...of-the-gap-comprehensive-chaamil-plan.512349/

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## BATMAN

StormBreaker said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @aliyusuf Is 3000 the third prototype of Block 3 or First or second ?


That's the right way of debate... ask for clarifications, if you have hard time believing it.

It may be fourth, but that could be memory issue, which makes no difference, but definitely not first..
It's alright if final product was after 2-3 prototypes, nothing wrong with it.

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## StormBreaker

Amun said:


> *full respect to you and all nations... Muslims or not ..... we as Egyptians don’t have any negative feelings regarding any nation.... we are peaceful Nation but if any one attacked us and thinking he will not suffer  that is totally wrong be it Crusaders, Mongols , Israel Or Turks ..
> 
> we don’t have too much info about Pakistan......
> our perception for Pakistan is a state that has National pride ..... a state that When it’s No1 enemy has Nuks ..... Pakistanis work day and night to reach to the knowledge of the Nuclear is bomb.....
> a country that has so religious people..... that’s all we know all positive things about Pakistan ....
> 
> So what I’m seeing here is shocking
> 
> that level of hostility then going down to insulting Egyptians ... and make fun of our National sacrifices in fighting Israel/ US in order to gain some Turkish likes .... forgive me brothers .. it requires response.*


I know egyptians very well brother. That’s why I am supporting the good side of egyptians as well as criticizing that crap member who went all bs over pak...

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## aziqbal

NO No NO

do not sell JF17 Block III to Egypt

Egypt will end up having it shot down by the Israelis and it will do a lot of damage to our reputation due to Egyptain incompetence

Only Block II is for sale

I have been to Egypt and love them but sorry

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## StormBreaker

The SC said:


> It was made by Egyptian Engineers..designed by Wilhelm Messerschmitt..Development of the Egyptian HA-300 started in the test facilities and workshops in Factory No. 36 in Helwan, southeast of Cairo, under the supervision of the Egyptian General Aero Organisation (EGAO), beginning officially in 1959.
> The HA-300 was modified for the Egyptian Brandner E-300 engine, whose planned output was to have been 10,600 lbf (47.2 kN) of thrust on afterburner, which would also improve the HA-300's performance..
> The Helwan-300 project was cancelled on May 1969. The reason was not publicly stated but financial and political factors likely played a part.
> 
> How could you have skipped all this information from the same article..!?


Had this project been completed, Egypt would have been on a total different level now in terms of local industry...
We got caught in the F-16 dilemma, you got caught with bad politics with regards to toss program. Loss and loss


----------



## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> BTW, I meant no disrespect earlier, that guy asked for it. You will find me praising as well as criticizing everyone where necessary, Be it Arabs, Turks, Iran, India, Israel and even My own country. So I am no biased mind.
> 
> So enlighten me of how is local Egyptian industry doing recently ?
> What are the future plannings ? I have a saying “Egyptians are the Professor Arabs”, like if you want a nerd or a bookworm arab, go to Egypt, you will find many. High scoring and achieving students of Egypt, bright minds.
> 
> So it would be really unimpressive if Egypt isn’t working on big things yet.
> 
> Like about fighter programs or trainers. About avionics and Joint ventures. Local assemblies.
> 
> In terms of aviation only...


There are 10s of thousands of projects going on ..from mega-projects like building new modern cities all over Egypt to small local very exciting projects and everything in between.. the economy is doing very well..in fact what was achieved in 4-5 years of President Sissi surpasses what was achieved in the last 30 years..

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## StormBreaker

The SC said:


> There are 10s of thousands of projects going on ..from mega-projects like building new modern cities all over Egypt to small local very exciting projects and everything in between.. the economy is doing very well..in fact what was achieved in 4-5 years of President Sissi surpasses what was achieved in the last 30 years..


I am talking about defence production.
About your real estate, i already know how booming that sector is right not in Egypt.


----------



## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> Had this project been completed, Egypt would have been on a total different level now in terms of local industry...
> We got caught in the F-16 dilemma, you got caught with bad politics with regards to toss program. Loss and loss


That is true.. but you have the URSS at that time proposing cheaper planes to Egypt than what would have been its own fighter.. That also played a role ..



StormBreaker said:


> I am talking about defence production.
> About your real estate, i already know how booming that sector is right not in Egypt.


It is coming very good.. after the end of production of the Abrams very soon..there is the production of the T-90MS to be started soon too.. Many air defense systems have been improved locally..there are 2D radars already and working on 3D radars.. 3 Gowinds have been made in Egypt..one Meko to be made in Egypt too as well as 20 Italian OPV.. and this is just the tip of the iceberg.. A lot of TOT now..plus a lot of spare parts and their production as well as other weapons..

For much more:
You can visit Egyptian armed forces sticky thread on this section we are on ..Arab Defence

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## PakFactor

The SC said:


> That tells me you do not know enough..because both sides said that Egypt won the 1973 Ramadan war..To the point that the US had to intervene..and even threaten nuclear war....You understand now..????



I have studied Military History and Tactics of pretty much all Major Wars conducted from Saladin to Present as members on this forum know.

Egyptian Forces during Operation Badr (and Syrian Forces on the Golan Heights side) had the surprise during the initial spearhead of the conflict Egypt crossed on to the East of Suez Canal. 

NOTE: Israeli's Solider's were away due to religious holiday and were away from posts.

You goal was to get a foothold their and close on the Israeli Border and use it as a bargaining chip to get back the remaining lands lost to Israel in the previous conflict, and a favorable Peace Deal. Russia was supplying Arab Forces with ammunition and equipment, and U.S. saw this as the opportunity as well to supply Israel.

Now this is the fun part and shows how useless you Arabs are -- Israel regroups its forces and launches a thrust into the Sinai surrounding your Egyptian Third army led by Ariel Sharon and creating a bridge in Northern Sinai which allowed Israel to push Armored Forces and men unchallenged, advancing all the way to Cairo (stopped 60 miles from your capital). You Army was effectively sandwiched between Israel and Israeli Forces in the West of Sinai while you were stuck in the middle, you left you back wide open, had Israel wanted to make Kefta Kabob out of you they could have done it.

Northern Israel the forces gathered and launched an assault on the Golan Heights against Syrian Forces, bloody conflict and losses on both sides exceeded what analysts expected. This to the Israeli's takes command and control of the whole Golan Heights region with full access to the roadway leading to Damascus. This was because Egypt decided to have a cease-fire without the Syrians knowledge and left them to take the full brunt of the attack as well; which also resulted in you getting kicked out of the Arab League.

However, while Egypt got back the Sinai Region full in 1980's, the rest of Arab lands Gaza (was control by Egypt before the previous war), West Bank (was controlled by Jordan), East Jerusalem (was controlled by Jordan) and Golan Heights (Syrian land) still to this day remains in Israeli control

Israel, however, become to relaxed after the previous conflict thinking Arabs wouldn't hit again, this was mostly intelligence failure on their part. They were reprimanded for this, and this mistake they will not allow to happen again.

I can go into more detail(s) but time doesn't permit me as I have clients to attend to and stuff, but you get the general gist of things as you didn't win anything but Arabs as a whole lost.

Hence, I stand by my previous comments your stupid wars ended up costing Arab's more than winning.

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## Philip the Arab

StormBreaker said:


> I am talking about defence production.
> About your real estate, i already know how booming that sector is right not in Egypt.


It is very booming with Sisi coming to power, there are many defense projects like ESR-32A 2D radar, 3D 450km radar should be unveiled at EDEX 2020 if everything goes right, and most likely many other things that will be unveiled in December if this Coronavirus bullshit is done with. JF-17 presents a good opportunity to get TOT from China for aircraft systems, weapons, and help with integration on future Egyptian UAVs, and other aircraft possibly being developed.

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## PakFactor

BATMAN said:


> If pdf brigade, have no idea how Israel was pushed back, while once they were at banks of canal Suize, which is 100km from Cairo and why Egypt cherish 10th Ramadan so overwhelmingly.
> They better not claim to be expert of Egyptian military and their capabilities.
> I my self have read comments on pdf by the declared experts, that Egyptian army is used to sitting in Air-conditioners and good for nothing. While i have seen them patrolling in 50°C in Sinai etc. They are as solid as iron.
> Egyptian Airforce pilots are trained from US, how good they are.... may be some Egyptian friend should come and explain to the useless and hateful bunch.
> Where i have no doubt... is that in today's date Israel can't even think of going to war with Egypt and why should they! There are no territorial disputes!



Your as stupid as they come Patwai without reading anything of substance of this conflict; read above why this war was a failure.
Only reason the Peace Treaty was pushed is because this could have gone nuclear from USSR/US and Israel/Arab; eventually after Egyptian **** up and leaving their ally's dry signing a cease-fire after getting happy to early in their surprise for their Operation Badr but when Israel regrouped it was a spanking.


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## StormBreaker

Philip the Arab said:


> It is very booming with Sisi coming to power, there are many defense projects like ESR-32A 2D radar, 3D 450km radar should be unveiled at EDEX 2020 if everything goes right, and most likely many other things that will be unveiled in December if this Coronavirus bullshit is done with. JF-17 prevents a good opportunity to get TOT from China for aircraft systems, weapons, and help with integration on future Egyptian UAVs, and other aircraft possibly being developed.


To get my answer, I must probably go through the older IDEX threads

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## Philip the Arab

StormBreaker said:


> To get my answer, I must probably go through the older IDEX threads


EDEX, I will link some stuff

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## The SC

PakFactor said:


> I have studied Military History and Tactics of pretty much all Major Wars conducted from Saladin to Present as members on this forum know.
> 
> Egyptian Forces during Operation Badr (and Syrian Forces on the Golan Heights side) had the surprise during the initial spearhead of the conflict Egypt crossed on to the East of Suez Canal.
> 
> NOTE: Israeli's Solider's were away due to religious holiday and were away from posts.
> 
> You goal was to get a foothold their and close on the Israeli Border and use it as a bargaining chip to get back the remaining lands lost to Israel in the previous conflict, and a favorable Peace Deal. Russia was supplying Arab Forces with ammunition and equipment, and U.S. saw this as the opportunity as well to supply Israel.
> 
> Now this is the fun part and shows how useless you Arabs are -- Israel regroups its forces and launches a thrust into the Sinai surrounding your Egyptian Third army led by Ariel Sharon and creating a bridge in Northern Sinai which allowed Israel to push Armored Forces and men unchallenged, advancing all the way to Cairo (stopped 60 miles from your capital). You Army was effectively sandwiched between Israel and Israeli Forces in the West of Sinai while you were stuck in the middle, you left you back wide open, had Israel wanted to make Kefta Kabob out of you they could have done it.
> 
> Northern Israel the forces gathered and launched an assault on the Golan Heights against Syrian Forces, bloody conflict and losses on both sides exceeded what analysts expected. This to the Israeli's takes command and control of the whole Golan Heights region with full access to the roadway leading to Damascus. This was because Egypt decided to have a cease-fire without the Syrians knowledge and left them to take the full brunt of the attack as well; which also resulted in you getting kicked out of the Arab League.
> 
> However, while Egypt got back the Sinai Region full in 1980's, the rest of Arab lands Gaza (was control by Egypt before the previous war), West Bank (was controlled by Jordan), East Jerusalem (was controlled by Jordan) and Golan Heights (Syrian land) still to this day remains in Israeli control
> 
> I can go into more detail(s) but time doesn't permit me as I have clients to attend to and stuff, but you get the general gist of things as you didn't win anything but Arabs as a whole lost.
> 
> Hence, I stand by my previous comments your stupid wars ended up costing Arab's more than winning.


Sorry to tell you that you got most of it wrong.. starting from not knowing that this was from the satart a limited war to liberate the Sinai peninsula.. it was called ..operation spark.... the Egyptians destroyed what was supposed to be the indestructible Barlev line..advanced 15 km inside Sinai and stopped there they had no intention to go to the borders with Usrael..
You messed it up too when you said the Russians were supplying the Arabs with weapons..while all the Usraeli weapons were already American..
There are too much fallacies about this Ramadan war in your "Studies".. that it is not even worth an answer..
I can just see jealousy mixed with ignorance.. really too much without any sources or facts on the ground.. you better stay with your customers..lol.. and forget about Military history and tactics all together ..because the 1973 war Arab tactics are still being studied to this day in major Military academies around the world..

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## StormBreaker

The SC said:


> Sorry to tell you that you got most of it wrong.. starting from not knowing that this was from the satart a limited war to liberate the Sinai peninsula.. it was called ..operation spark.... the Egyptians destroyed what was supposed to be the indestructible Barlev line..advanced 15 km inside Sinai and stopped there they had no intention to go to the borders with Usrael..
> You messed it up too when you said the Russians was supplying the Arabs with weapons..while all the Usraeli weapons were already American..
> There are too much fallacies about this Ramadan war in your "Studies".. that it is not even worth an answer..
> I can just see jealousy mixed with ignorance..really too much for you..


Could you link up some legit stuff to read about this all

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## Philip the Arab

@StormBreaker 





Egypt gained TOT from America, and used it to manufacture upgraded radars from the 80s and 90s. Go to 3:19.






There is no DSCA upgrade announced so America was not involved in it. Original radar is called AN/TPS-63

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## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> Could you link up some legit stuff to read about this all


You can go to the Arab defense section..and look for my threads about the October war or the Ramadan war as it is know in the Arab world.. there are a few real good reads in which I had put a lot of time and effort in research..I bet you will enjoy the reads..

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## StormBreaker

The SC said:


> You can go to the Arab defense section..and look for my threads about the October war or the Ramadan war as it is know in the Arab world.. there are a few real good reads in which I had put a lot of time and effort in research..I bet you will enjoy the reads..


Let me check, Sure


----------



## PakFactor

The SC said:


> Sorry to tell you that you got most of it wrong.. starting from not knowing that this was from the satart a limited war to liberate the Sinai peninsula.. it was called ..operation spark.... the Egyptians destroyed what was supposed to be the indestructible Barlev line..advanced 15 km inside Sinai and stopped there they had no intention to go to the borders with Usrael..
> You messed it up too when you said the Russians was supplying the Arabs with weapons..while all the Usraeli weapons were already American..
> There are too much fallacies about this Ramadan war in your "Studies".. that it is not even worth an answer..
> I can just see jealousy mixed with ignorance.. really too much without any sources or facts on the ground.. you better stay with your customers..lol.. and forget about Military history and tactics all together ..because the 1973 war Arab tactics are still being studied to this day in major Military academies around the world..



Your as stupid as they come, hence, why Arabs don't win anything. Operation Spark was the political strategy named by Sadat, that this conflict would create "spark" and an international intervention. Your war started with Operation Badr.

Yes, Egypt did destroy, because, Israeli Forces were away due to a religious holiday, as I stated in my previous post, and didn't have an active presence on posts and patrols, etc.; along with that it was intelligence failure and after the 1967 Arab whooping the Israeli's didn't expect a conflict to happen.

Russians were selling to Egyptians 1-2 years before the conflict, U.S. initially refused to supply but once they saw the Russian intervention they U.S. started supplying arms and opened an air corridor to Israel.

You should go back and study your history because you've been fed a lot of misinformation from your Arab books and some online useless sites.

And your correct, Arab tactics are studied greatly in military schools across the world, on how "NOT" to fight a damn war.



StormBreaker said:


> Let me check, Sure



Suggest you go outside and read about this conflict as from The SC and other Arabs you'll not find a neutral point of view. This conflict was a total waste of time, money and resources for the Arabs.

This conflict basically after the peace agreement made Israel the defecto power of the region. Egypt only regained it's territory but what ever else was lost is still in Israeli' control till this day.


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## The SC

PakFactor said:


> Your as stupid as they come, hence, why Arabs don't win anything. Operation Spark was the political strategy named by Sadat, that this conflict would create "spark" and an international intervention. Your war started with Operation Badr.
> 
> Yes, Egypt did destroy, because, Israeli Forces were away due to a religious holiday, as I stated in my previous post, and didn't have an active presence on posts and patrols, etc.; along with that it was intelligence failure and after the 1967 Arab whooping the Israeli's didn't expect a conflict to happen.
> 
> Russians were selling to Egyptians 1-2 years before the conflict, U.S. initially refused to supply but once they saw the Russian intervention they U.S. started supplying arms and opened an air corridor to Israel.
> 
> You should go back and study your history because you've been fed a lot of misinformation from your Arab books and some online useless sites.
> 
> And your correct, Arab tactics are studied greatly in military schools across the world, on how "NOT" to fight a damn war.


You confuse a war with its first battle..

Then you say it was a one day Jewish holiday.. forgetting that the Egyptians fought on The sacred Muslim Ramadan..means they were fasting..how dumb can you be..

After that you get dumber, saying 
After that you say: "along with that it was intelligence failure and after the 1967 Arab whooping the Israeli's didn't expect a conflict to happen."
That means they were totally deceived..the Arabs had won the intelligence war before the the conflict had ever started..

Than go find out what were the Usraeli weapons before 1973..if not all European and US weapons..

Just think again..
Who has brought you Islam..? The Arabs

Second I will let you suffer in your jealousy and ignorance..

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## PakFactor

The SC said:


> Just think again..
> Who has brought you Islam..?
> 
> Second I will let you suffer in your jealousy and ignorance..



Right, can't refute anything and you now you toss the, "who brought you Islam" crap, I don't even need to respond to it. Because it makes no difference in this day and age. You guys will be wiped out anyways, when the malhama starts.

I'm not jealous and why should I be? Was my country surrounded by a country the size of Cairo? Lol, now take your butt-hurt somewhere else.


----------



## StormBreaker

The SC said:


> Just think again..
> Who has brought you Islam..?
> 
> Second I will let you suffer in your jealousy and ignorance..


I believe you will be interested in this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qais_Abdur_Rashid

Do checkout the “Legend” section


----------



## The SC

PakFactor said:


> Right, can't refute anything and you now you toss the, "who brought you Islam" crap, I don't even need to respond to it. Because it makes no difference in this day and age. You guys will be wiped out anyways, when the malhama starts.
> 
> I'm not jealous and why should I be? Was my country surrounded by a country the size of Cairo? Lol, now take your butt-hurt somewhere else.


Oh I can see how jealous you are..I know your sick type just from you dumb answers..


----------



## HRK

StormBreaker said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @aliyusuf Is 3000 the third prototype of Block 3 or First or second ?


as of now we only know about one prototype of blk-III but there must be more then one prototype before the final product go into production therefore we can not say it was the 'First' or last prototype of blk-III .....

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## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> I believe you will be interested in this
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qais_Abdur_Rashid
> 
> Do checkout the “Legend” section


It is nice but difficult to understand.. since both Qais and Malik names are Arabic..


----------



## StormBreaker

HRK said:


> as of now we only know about one prototype of blk-III but there must be more then one prototype before the final product go into production therefore we can not say it was the 'First' or last prototype of blk-III .....


Thanks HRK @BATMAN To kia farmaya tha mein ne hazrat ? There is no evidence to 3000 being the third of its kind, so we can’t believe or deny but definitely former being the most probable scenario.


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## PakFactor

The SC said:


> You confuse a war with its first battle..
> 
> Then you say it was a one day Jewish holiday.. forgetting that the Egyptians fought on The sacred Muslim Ramadan..means they were fasting..how dumb can you be..
> 
> After that you get dumber, saying
> After that you say: "along with that it was intelligence failure and after the 1967 Arab whooping the Israeli's didn't expect a conflict to happen."
> That means they were totally deceived..the Arabs had won the intelligence war before the the conflict had ever started..
> 
> Than go find out what were the Usraeli weapons before 1973..if not all European and US weapons..
> 
> Just think again..
> Who has brought you Islam..? The Arabs
> 
> Second I will let you suffer in your jealousy and ignorance..



Lol, still show me where the Arabs won the war!

Yom Kippur <-- Is what the Israeli nation was observing, and their armed forces were away, where did I say it was a one day holiday? So stop making stupid assumptions unless you have reading issues.

I, don't care about the intelligence war, what matters is what came after that. Admit it, like I stated you only got back the Sinai after throwing Syria under the bus, till this day Israel retains control of all other lost land, lol.


You have no legs to stand on and talking to you now like talking to a tree trunk.


----------



## The SC

StormBreaker said:


> Had this project been completed, Egypt would have been on a total different level now in terms of local industry...
> We got caught in the F-16 dilemma, you got caught with bad politics with regards to toss program. Loss and loss


But look at the JF-17 now.. that pretty positive..

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## StormBreaker

The SC said:


> It is nice but difficult to understand.. since both Qais and Malik names are Arabic..


The name was after accepting islam. BTW, names have no copyrights of Arabs or so. The names have been there even been there before centuries Pre-Islamic times. Take Sulayman for example, It is both a persian word as well as Arab. There is a myth that Pashtun tribe is actually a descendant of one of the 12 brothers of Yusuf AS, Children of Israel.



The SC said:


> But look at the JF-17 now.. that pretty positive..


The joy of owning a modifiable car and own garage is totally something else...

You can race a v8 with your decades old car if you modify it accordingly.


----------



## The SC

PakFactor said:


> Lol, still show me where the Arabs won the war!
> 
> Yom Kippur <-- Is what the Israeli nation was observing, and their armed forces were away, where did I say it was a one day holiday? So stop making stupid assumptions unless you have reading issues.
> 
> I, don't care about the intelligence war, what matters is what came after that. Admit it, like I stated you only got back the Sinai after throwing Syria under the bus, till this day Israel retains control of all other lost land, lol.
> 
> 
> You have no legs to stand on and talking to you now like talking to a tree trunk.


WOW..what a dumb example again..



StormBreaker said:


> The name was after accepting islam. BTW, names have no copyrights of Arabs or so. The names have been there even been there before centuries Pre-Islamic times. Take Sulayman for example, It is both a persian word as well as Arab. There is a myth that Pashtun tribe is actually a descendant of one of the 12 brothers of Yusuf AS, Children of Israel.
> 
> 
> The joy of owning a modifiable car and own garage is totally something else...
> 
> You can race a v8 with your decades old car if you modify it accordingly.


Yes but think about it.. that v8 old car..as much as you modify it and maintain it..it won't live forever..


----------



## BATMAN

StormBreaker said:


> Thanks HRK @BATMAN To kia farmaya tha mein ne hazrat ? There is no evidence to 3000 being the third of its kind, so we can’t believe or deny but definitely former being the most probable scenario.



Khwaje ka gawa daddu...
I identify HRK as a any other hater of pdf with history.
Ask him to re-write that there was no prototype.. not stating that he's an ignorant, than i'll have a screen shot of his post.


----------



## PakFactor

The SC said:


> WOW..what a dumb example again..



Again can't refute anything, lol.

Good day, sir, and I pray the Israeli's keep making an example out of the Arab race. Until you actually learn how to war, and how to deal with facts.


----------



## StormBreaker

BATMAN said:


> Khwaje ka gawa daddu...
> I identify HRK as a any other hater of pdf with history.
> Ask him to re-write that there was no prototype.. not stating that he's an ignorant, than i'll have a screen shot of his post.


Consult some nearest Mind therapy session. Pray Tahajjud, Do zikr and Recite Quran. Your mind will come to ease, perhaps you can cure yourself



The SC said:


> WOW..what a dumb example again..
> 
> 
> Yes but think about it.. that v8 old car..as much as you modify it and maintain it..it won't live forever..


That’s where the “Plan v12” comes *AZM*


----------



## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Many a project could not be completed---because the israelis got to the german scientists on multiple occasions on different projects---.
> 
> Germans scientists tried to help the arabs a lots after the world war---.
> 
> So---I was travelling by Tezgam in 1974 from interior sindh to rawalpindi going to college---. I would get a free travel pass for A/C sleeper---. In the morning time the other passenger started talking to me---he introduced himself---can't remember the name but remember he resided in germany---his older brother was a minister in earlier days of Pres Ayub cabinet. Asks me what my subjects were in college---told him biology---he say I should study Physics---great opportunities in the field---then he talked about the how the german scientists were helping the arab countries in sciences related to "physics" & other engineering fields ( in missile technology )---. Mentioned that the germans had great affinity to muslims because of their stand against the israelis---.
> 
> I remembered him enough that when I saw my grand father the next time---maybe after 6 months and related the story---he recognized that guys brother's name as a minster---.
> 
> Years later when I grew older---I realized that the arabs had so many opportunities over the years but could not take advantage due to their lack of education---their attitude towards people of different faith---and lackadasical work ethics---.
> 
> I also realized that why my parents generation succeeded and as well as our generation---because we did not have prejudice against people of other faiths & nationalities---.
> 
> The polish air force personal working for the Paf is one example---then christian missionary schools another example---making it the church of pakistan another leading decision---.
> 
> It all lasted well and good till Gen Zia came to power---.


Great read,

Never thought about that...
Was Turkey ally of israel back then ?


----------



## BATMAN

StormBreaker said:


> Consult some nearest Mind therapy session. Pray Tahajjud, Do zikr and Recite Quran. Your mind will come to ease, perhaps you can cure yourself



You should go visit some nearest shrine, lick the grills and read the newest edition of Ahadis, perhaps you will be able to win a position in cabinet of naya Pakistan.


----------



## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> Great read,
> 
> Never thought about that...
> Was Turkey ally of israel back then ?



Turkey wanted to be a part of europe for the longest time period---till they realised they have more in common with those behind them---. But Turkey always had good relations with Pakistan---.



StormBreaker said:


> Consult some nearest Mind therapy session. Pray Tahajjud, Do zikr and Recite Quran. Your mind will come to ease, perhaps you can cure yourself
> 
> 
> That’s where the “Plan v12” comes *AZM*
> 
> 
> View attachment 622911



Lau Kar Lau Gal---you been preaching me and now????????

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Turkey wanted to be a part of europe for the longest time period---till they realised they have more in common with those behind them---. But Turkey always had good relations with Pakistan---.



The problem with Arabs once money started flowing they left all this and went on bing buying. This killed their word ethics and created a superiority complex in their thinking.

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## StormBreaker

BATMAN said:


> You should go visit some nearest shrine, lick the grills and read the newest edition of Ahadis, perhaps you will be able to win a position in cabinet of naya Pakistan.


@Blacklight 
Isnt he so cute ?



MastanKhan said:


> Turkey wanted to be a part of europe for the longest time period---till they realised they have more in common with those behind them---. But Turkey always had good relations with Pakistan---.
> 
> 
> 
> Lau Kar Lau Gal---you been preaching me and now????????


Sometimes the urge is real and asked for 



MastanKhan said:


> Turkey wanted to be a part of europe for the longest time period---till they realised they have more in common with those behind them---. But Turkey always had good relations with Pakistan---.
> 
> 
> 
> Lau Kar Lau Gal---you been preaching me and now????????


So how did the germans take turks into regards ?

And do the germans care about the history now ?

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## BATMAN

StormBreaker said:


> @Blacklight
> Isnt he so cute ?


welcome to the obsession club... enjoy.
I can change my religion, if it helps?



PakFactor said:


> Again can't refute anything, lol.
> 
> Good day, sir, and I pray the Israeli's keep making an example out of the Arab race. Until you actually learn how to war, and how to deal with facts.



You are not the first one to pray the destruction of Arabs on pdf.... but they have saved Pakistan from bankruptcy on many occasions, do you remember when was it last time?


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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> @Blacklight
> 
> 
> Sometimes the urge is real and asked for
> 
> 
> So how did the germans take turks into regards ?
> 
> And do the germans care about the history now ?



Hi,

The arabs never appreciated the germans or others like Gerald Bull I believe out of sheer prejudice and racism because the drank liquor and ate pork---.

Now if the germans had turned to pakistan in the 60's---they would have benefitted much better---because many a pakistanis have enjoyed both at the dining table or after work---.

The israelis saw the germans helping on the missile program---they started taking out the scientists---they took out Bull---. After the assasinations and lackadaisical attitude of the arabs---the germans retreated and moved away---.

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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The arabs never appreciated the germans or others like Gerald Bull I believe out of sheer prejudice and racism because the drank liquor and ate pork---.
> 
> Now if the germans had turned to pakistan in the 60's---they would have benefitted much better---because many a pakistanis have enjoyed both at the dining table or after work---.
> 
> The israelis saw the germans helping on the missile program---they started taking out the scientists---they took out Bull---. After the assasinations and lackadaisical attitude of the arabs---the germans retreated and moved away---.



What you earlier narrated was an individual German, but officially Germans came to Pakistan during the industrial revolution of 60s for sourcing engineers.
Gen. Ayub declined the offer politely. As he wanted to build Pakistan.

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## Blacklight

StormBreaker said:


> @Blacklight
> Isnt he so cute ?


He has a point, why are there so many idiots in the cabinet, that work on their own agenda, and ultimately will cause the downfall of IK.

Btw, I dont remember a cabinet that had so many factions inside it, does any one else?


----------



## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> What you earlier narrated was an individual German, but officially Germans came to Pakistan during the industrial revolution of 60s for sourcing engineers.
> Gen. Ayub declined the offer politely. As he wanted to build Pakistan.



Hi,

Germans offered us industry---we replied that we want to stay a farming nation---.


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## Genghis khan1

loanranger said:


> Haha sadly these are not cars which normal people can buy. These jets are evaluated extensively by seversl idiots themselves. Jets don't need advertisement. Their performance in real life and politics determines the sales.


These expert are also humans, Verbal judo and psychological factor plays it’s wonders. Not to mention, many countries, decision come down to politicians. No body wants to own cheap stuff. There is a reason Defence companies hire good looking articulate marketing professionals. Most countries buy fancy these toys to show credibility Military deterrence (Specially oil rich Habibis). What kinda deterrence would you expect world to perceive, if the sell itself is calling it’s product cheap. Call it Affordable or something. But I would suggest to improve quality and hike price. 

Drop Apple Watch price and People will lost interest in it.


----------



## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> He has a point, why are there so many idiots in the cabinet, that work on their own agenda, and ultimately will cause the downfall of IK.
> 
> Btw, I dont remember a cabinet that had so many factions inside it, does any one else?


Two months ago He called me an iranian agent, 1 day ago, I was called some relative or close to mods and now I am called a paid troll.

He just doesn’t stop naming me new things. So I say he’s cute

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## Genghis khan1

sami_1 said:


> View attachment 622777
> 
> 
> There is a technical problem with Chinese fighters
> Egypt is simply the k-8e. There are high complaints about the level of quality and Egypt was forced to develop it several times, which gave a poor reputation to the Chinese planes in general in Egypt. Egypt found itself spending on the Chinese planes a long time and a great effort to make them with our minimum quality level we need
> 
> We have already mentioned that Egypt tried the JF-17 and Egyptian pilots tested it and did not find it suitable for a fighter with the level of hostilities of Egypt to countries like Israel, Turkey and Iran, so Egypt rejected it completely.
> 
> The story of the plane JF-17 block III Pakistanis themselves were disappointed in the plane because it did not provide significant development that would take it out of the level of an advanced training plane
> What you will benefit from a 4,000 hour flying fighter and an aluminum air frame
> 
> What is the technical level that will benefit or prolong the Egyptian industry for a backward plane?
> 
> Some people speak on the bird equipped with the SD-10
> Some ignore completely different things. Egypt currently has contracted and owned 100 4+ MIG-29M2 , Rafale and Su-35 aircraft.
> The stock of BVR rockets in Egypt is much larger than that of any country in the region, primarily from the different types
> EVEN MBDA offer for Egypt new local production line for requirements for air/air ,air / surface an surface / surface missiles
> View attachment 622788
> 
> Which is better, producing the MiG 35 or cooperating with the Russians in fighting a new fifth generation, or even FC-31
> 
> it is easy Chinese offer FC-31 & L-15W/B


Day Egypt decided to show hostilities against Israel, Egypt’s can subtract western military equipment in its arsenal. No economic assistance, weapons or spare part. Rafael, F-16s and so on.. 

No GCC funding either. GCC Royals and sheiks aren’t risking their trillion $ investments (their economic lifeline after oil) in western banks find Egypt. 

Turkey is a Still a NATO member. Situation don’t look good here either. 

Egypt only bet is fighting Iran for Saudis and Emiratis. I think JF-17 BLK 2 is more than sufficient for that job.

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## Blacklight

StormBreaker said:


> Two months ago He called me an iranian agent, 1 day ago, I was called some relative or close to mods and now I am called a paid troll.
> 
> He just doesn’t stop naming me new things. So I say he’s cute


At the end of the day, he is our brother. He is entitled to his difference of opinion, lets not turn into gangus and lynch him. THAT is the difference between us and them.

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## The SC

PakFactor said:


> Again can't refute anything, lol.
> 
> Good day, sir, and I pray the Israeli's keep making an example out of the Arab race. Until you actually learn how to war, and how to deal with facts.


You want to stay ignorant and blind to facts? ..it is up to you.. All I can do is try to help you open your eye..if you can..

The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that  Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:
"For many years we have fought wars (de Lux), where we demonstrated ... mobilizing a fight for a few days, ending in with a swift victory, returning home to father, wife and work.
In the Yom Kippur War, the situation was very different. Preparedness in the army and beyond put pressure on the psyche of soldiers who still find it very difficult to understand the new situation created by the Kppur war. Today we need great efforts in the field of media. Soldiers ask many questions with no answers to them. And most of the answers to them are not true."

General Aharon Yariv, former director of military intelligence, says:
There is no doubt that the Arabs have emerged victorious from the war. As we came out we were crushed and weak

Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.

Aaron Geva The Jerusalem Newspaper Davar: The Arabs do not give in to force 

*
Israel recognizes the mistakes of its defeat in the October 1973 war*






Head of State, Reuven Rivlin

"Voice of Israel" radio, Broadcast the Israeli president's remarks, Roovin Rivlin made on Sunday, he said that during the Yom Kippur War "October 1973" witnessed significant errors within the army and the Israeli leadership, the most important was to underestimate the enemy, "the Egyptian army."

He explained during the military ceremony which was held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem, that the most important mistakes committed by the army of Israel was excessive vanity and disdain for the capabilities of the enemy and the lack of training and preparation of Israel's soldiers to fight against a strong army.

The Israeli President added, that after 41 years of the October war, we can not forgive or pardon the mistakes we made, and we do not have the time to search for negligence or accusation of the perpetrators of the defeat, but we must draw examples and lessons from the mistakes of the past.

General Sharon said about the third army:
To tell you the truth, we did not know who was surrounding whom

So who are you to contradict these top ranking Usraelis???

And this is The Egyptian armed forces at war and after the end of 1973 Ramadan war
Does it look like a defeated armed forces for you..











These are the IDF soldiers celebrating their escape from the gap.. they are praising Sadat for letting them go and not destroying them right there..

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## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> At the end of the day, he is our brother. He is entitled to his difference of opinion, lets not turn into gangus and lynch him. THAT is the difference between us and them.


He must be fun at parties 

That’s why I am trolling him...

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## Genghis khan1

The SC said:


> You want to stay ignorant and blind to facts? ..it is up to you.. All I can do is try to help you open your eye..if you can..
> 
> The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that  Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:
> "For many years we have fought wars (de Lux), where we demonstrated ... mobilizing a fight for a few days, ending in with a swift victory, returning home to father, wife and work.
> In the Yom Kippur War, the situation was very different. Preparedness in the army and beyond put pressure on the psyche of soldiers who still find it very difficult to understand the new situation created by the Kppur war. Today we need great efforts in the field of media. Soldiers ask many questions with no answers to them. And most of the answers to them are not true."
> 
> General Aharon Yariv, former director of military intelligence, says:
> There is no doubt that the Arabs have emerged victorious from the war. As we came out we were crushed and weak
> 
> Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.
> 
> Aaron Geva The Jerusalem Newspaper Davar: The Arabs do not give in to force
> 
> *
> Israel recognizes the mistakes of its defeat in the October 1973 war*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Head of State, Reuven Rivlin
> 
> "Voice of Israel" radio, Broadcast the Israeli president's remarks, Roovin Rivlin made on Sunday, he said that during the Yom Kippur War "October 1973" witnessed significant errors within the army and the Israeli leadership, the most important was to underestimate the enemy, "the Egyptian army."
> 
> He explained during the military ceremony which was held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem, that the most important mistakes committed by the army of Israel was excessive vanity and disdain for the capabilities of the enemy and the lack of training and preparation of Israel's soldiers to fight against a strong army.
> 
> The Israeli President added, that after 41 years of the October war, we can not forgive or pardon the mistakes we made, and we do not have the time to search for negligence or accusation of the perpetrators of the defeat, but we must draw examples and lessons from the mistakes of the past.
> 
> General Sharon said about the third army:
> To tell you the truth, we did not know who was surrounding whom
> 
> So who are you to contradict these top ranking Usraelis???
> 
> And this is The Egyptian armed forces at war and after the end of 1973 Ramadan war
> Does it look like a defeated armed forces for you..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the IDF soldiers celebrating their escape from the gap.. they are praising Sadat for letting them go and not destroying them right there..


Smaller country doesn’t have to decisively win a war. All they have to do is not lose and It is automatically a win for them. 
Arabs failed to decisively Defeat Israel, despite overwhelming large army and population. We can argue reasons and find excuses But fact on ground remains the same. Not only they failed to defeat, Israelis manage to break their will to fight by bribing them with so called economic assistance via western capitals. Much Much cheaper than constantly providing war level protection to Israel.

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## ARMalik

aziqbal said:


> NO No NO
> 
> do not sell JF17 Block III to Egypt
> 
> Egypt will end up having it shot down by the Israelis and it will do a lot of damage to our reputation due to Egyptain incompetence
> 
> Only Block II is for sale
> 
> I have been to Egypt and love them but sorry



Agreed 110%. Actually I was one of few who raised objection here when this first became news a few months ago. But the problem is *"corruption"* due to which Pakistan *"authorities"* will export this to Egypt even if it is against national interests.


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## PakFactor

Genghis khan1 said:


> Smaller country doesn’t have to decisively win a war. All they have to do is not lose and It is automatically a win for them.
> Arabs failed to decisively Defeat Israel, despite overwhelming large army and population. We can argue reasons and find excuses But fact on ground remains the same. Not only they failed to defeat, Israelis manage to break their will to fight by bribing them with so called economic assistance via western capitals. Much Much cheaper than constantly providing war level protection to Israel.



Bro, it’s useless arguing with him. He brings a few quotes to show they’ve won the war some how. Not realizing the Israeli were in a relaxed posture after defeating Arab armies in previous wars. If their is a mistake according to Israeli investigation it was intelligence gathering on Arab activity. But militarily the Arabs couldn’t holder the upper hand even after a surprise attack, the Israelis were able to quickly mobilize their forces and take the war to the enemies front door. 

I can’t find a 3rd party to verify any of his quotes and doesn’t show up in my searches either unless it some Arab news outlet throwing garbage out. 

But I can say the Israelis have learned from this lesson, and Ariel Sharon warned his nation this peace agreement is between leaders and not its nation and people. 

I have not seen any nation besides Egyptians who celebrate an *** whopping as a victory, so theirs always a first I guess, lol. 

With the below I rest my case and done with this useless conversation with a delusional Arab:


Recently, Efraim Halevy, ex-chief of Mossad, likened current intelligence failures to his reflections on the Yom Kippur War:

“There is an inherent understanding in the findings that the shortage of information on the threats—from Islamic terrorism and from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD)—was at the root of the intelligence breakdown on these two fronts. It seems only logical that the more you know, the safer you are and the greater the chance that you will get things right. Yet Israel's most costly and fateful failure was its mistaken estimate of Egyptian and Syrian intentions, on the eve of the Yom Kippur war in 1973, when the two armies unexpectedly attacked Israel in a bid to regain the territories lost in the 1967 war. At the time, Israel had it all: superior intelligence coverage, excellent human resources with good access, high-level and discreet dialogue with more than one Arab or Muslim leader, and an intelligence-evaluation arm that had provided an early warning several months before the war, thus preventing it from breaking out at that time. But despite all of the above, we got it all wrong. The abundance of information led us to intelligence “hubris”: we trusted our superior analytical prowess rather than ominous indicators on the ground. Naturally, one should not conclude from this that the less you know, the better your judgment. On the other hand, one should understand that, although knowledge is strength, knowledge by itself is no guarantee of safety.”- The Economist, Jul 24, 2004

http://csel.eng.ohio-state.edu/prod...ence Analysis: scenario : Yom Kippur War.html


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## The SC

Genghis khan1 said:


> Smaller country doesn’t have to decisively win a war. All they have to do is not lose and It is automatically a win for them.
> Arabs failed to decisively Defeat Israel, despite overwhelming large army and population. We can argue reasons and find excuses But fact on ground remains the same. Not only they failed to defeat, Israelis manage to break their will to fight by bribing them with so called economic assistance via western capitals. Much Much cheaper than constantly providing war level protection to Israel.


In reality the Arabs were fighting the whole support of Usrael, not the small country you see..mainly Europe and the US.. So try to defeat that.. at least Egypt got its lands back.. Syria got back its city Kuneitera in The Golan despite the West full backing of Usrael..



PakFactor said:


> Bro, it’s useless arguing with him. He brings a few quotes to show they’ve won the war some how. Not realizing the Israeli were in a relaxed posture after defeating Arab armies in previous wars. If their is a mistake according to Israeli investigation it was intelligence gathering on Arab activity. But militarily the Arabs couldn’t holder the upper hand even after a surprise attack, the Israelis were able to quickly mobilize their forces and take the war to the enemies front door.
> 
> I can’t find a 3rd party to verify any of his quotes and doesn’t show up in my searches either unless it some Arab news outlet throwing garbage out.
> 
> But I can say the Israelis have learned from this lesson, and Ariel Sharon warned his nation this peace agreement is between leaders and not its nation and people.
> 
> I have not seen any nation besides Egyptians who celebrate an *** whopping as a victory, so theirs always a first I guess, lol.
> 
> With the below I rest my case and done with this useless conversation with a delusional Arab:
> 
> 
> Recently, Efraim Halevy, ex-chief of Mossad, likened current intelligence failures to his reflections on the Yom Kippur War:
> 
> “There is an inherent understanding in the findings that the shortage of information on the threats—from Islamic terrorism and from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD)—was at the root of the intelligence breakdown on these two fronts. It seems only logical that the more you know, the safer you are and the greater the chance that you will get things right. Yet Israel's most costly and fateful failure was its mistaken estimate of Egyptian and Syrian intentions, on the eve of the Yom Kippur war in 1973, when the two armies unexpectedly attacked Israel in a bid to regain the territories lost in the 1967 war. At the time, Israel had it all: superior intelligence coverage, excellent human resources with good access, high-level and discreet dialogue with more than one Arab or Muslim leader, and an intelligence-evaluation arm that had provided an early warning several months before the war, thus preventing it from breaking out at that time. But despite all of the above, we got it all wrong. The abundance of information led us to intelligence “hubris”: we trusted our superior analytical prowess rather than ominous indicators on the ground. Naturally, one should not conclude from this that the less you know, the better your judgment. On the other hand, one should understand that, although knowledge is strength, knowledge by itself is no guarantee of safety.”- The Economist, Jul 24, 2004
> 
> http://csel.eng.ohio-state.edu/productions/intel/oldeintel/Intelligence Analysis: scenario : Yom Kippur War.html


Well Mr delusional, you are just proving it with your contradictions in the same post..Go play with dome kids somewhere and never tackle a subject you have no knowledge about..All you have being doing is contradicting yourself in each and every post.. so go troll kids somewhere else..

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## PakFactor

The SC said:


> In reality the Arabs were fighting the whole support of Usrael, not the small country you see..mainly Europe and the US.. So try to defeat that.. at least Egypt got its lands back.. Syria got back its city Kuneitera in The Golan despite the West full backing of Usrael..
> 
> 
> Well Mr delusional, you are just proving it with your contradictions in the same post..Go play with dome kids somewhere and never tackle a subject you have no knowledge about..All you have being doing is contradicting yourself in each and every post.. so go troll kids somewhere else..



LOL! Not once have you posted anything of substance to back yourself as to how you won this war. Your only success was the initial surprise due to gaps in Israeli intelligence about ground activity and build up, but you failed to build up from their. Your own dismissed Cheif of Staff who led the Egyptian Army during the 1973 War said their was no victory in the end.

If theirs anyone delusional it’s you. 

About those dome kids who whooped your asses, I would rather be with them than a dumb Arab like you or your race. 

Your own dismissed Chief of Staff Saad El-Shazly maintains in his book The Crossing of the Suez (till this day still banned in Egypt). Sadat's plan's of advancing forward Oct 14 without air cover sealed Egypt's faith in that war.

@StormBreaker you want to learn about the war and who won read this CIA Report which I did and it’s a good analysis of this war: 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/1975-09-01A.pdf

@StormBreaker

This article is written by an Egyptian Professor at The American University of Cairo:

What Did the Arabs Really Win in the 1973 War With Israel?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-did-the-arabs-really_b_751263

Below is one excerpt from the article: 

"By the time of an Oct. 22 ceasefire, Israeli forces were on the outskirts of Ismailia. On Oct. 23, the Israelis surrounded the Egyptian Third Army, which Shazly claimed was on the verge of collapse. 

Although Egypt agreed to the ceasefire, the Israelis continued to shell and air raid the surrounded Third Army.

When disengagement began on Oct. 28, the Egyptians were so desperate to resupply their Third Army with food that they hinted at the possibility of unprecedented direct talks with the Israelis. 

Arabs today point at that conflict as testament to their unity and claim the military gains prove that they are not powerless. 

Arab states that did not send military forces in time for the conflict contributed in materiel and funds; Libya, among others, gave Egypt $1 billion to procure armaments.

But initial gains can never accurately predict how the rest of the war will be waged.

By Oct. 24, the Israeli Army was 80 km. from Cairo and 40 km. from Damascus.

Egyptian nationalists say the return of the Sinai was the goal and that they achieved that through negotiations and the 1978 Camp David Peace Accords. However, they could not have achieved even the initial military gains had Israel not been occupied with the Syrians in the strategically more important Golan theater."

Furthermore, the Camp David Peace Accords alienated Egypt for a decade, broke Arab unity and effectively shackled Cairo to a series of international agreements and protocols it can never violate for fear of losing billions of dollars in US economic and military aid.

@The SC

This will be my last post as you have nothing of substance to post to back up your claims of winning this war -- the more I think about it I feel sorry for your kind, as I've not seen a much more useless race on this earth than yours.


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## The SC

PakFactor said:


> LOL! Not once have you posted anything of substance to back yourself as to how you won this war. Your only success was the initial surprise due to gaps in Israeli intelligence about ground activity and build up, but you failed to build up from their. Your own dismissed Cheif of Staff who led the Egyptian Army during the 1973 War said their was no victory in the end.
> 
> If theirs anyone delusional it’s you.
> 
> About those dome kids who whooped your asses, I would rather be with them than a dumb Arab like you or your race.
> 
> Your own dismissed Chief of Staff Saad El-Shazly maintains in his book The Crossing of the Suez (till this day still banned in Egypt). Sadat's plan's of advancing forward Oct 14 without air cover sealed Egypt's faith in that war.
> 
> @StormBreaker you want to learn about the war and who won read this CIA Report which I did and it’s a good analysis of this war:
> 
> https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/1975-09-01A.pdf
> 
> @StormBreaker
> 
> This article is written by an Egyptian Professor at The American University of Cairo:
> 
> What Did the Arabs Really Win in the 1973 War With Israel?
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-did-the-arabs-really_b_751263
> 
> Below is one excerpt from the article:
> 
> "By the time of an Oct. 22 ceasefire, Israeli forces were on the outskirts of Ismailia. On Oct. 23, the Israelis surrounded the Egyptian Third Army, which Shazly claimed was on the verge of collapse.
> 
> Although Egypt agreed to the ceasefire, the Israelis continued to shell and air raid the surrounded Third Army.
> 
> When disengagement began on Oct. 28, the Egyptians were so desperate to resupply their Third Army with food that they hinted at the possibility of unprecedented direct talks with the Israelis.
> 
> Arabs today point at that conflict as testament to their unity and claim the military gains prove that they are not powerless.
> 
> Arab states that did not send military forces in time for the conflict contributed in materiel and funds; Libya, among others, gave Egypt $1 billion to procure armaments.
> 
> But initial gains can never accurately predict how the rest of the war will be waged.
> 
> By Oct. 24, the Israeli Army was 80 km. from Cairo and 40 km. from Damascus.
> 
> Egyptian nationalists say the return of the Sinai was the goal and that they achieved that through negotiations and the 1978 Camp David Peace Accords. However, they could not have achieved even the initial military gains had Israel not been occupied with the Syrians in the strategically more important Golan theater."
> 
> Furthermore, the Camp David Peace Accords alienated Egypt for a decade, broke Arab unity and effectively shackled Cairo to a series of international agreements and protocols it can never violate for fear of losing billions of dollars in US economic and military aid.
> 
> @The SC
> 
> This will be my last post as you have nothing of substance to post to back up your claims of winning this war -- the more I think about it I feel sorry for your kind, as I've not seen a much more useless race on this earth than yours.


You must be very sick about an Arab victory..one of thousands like it throughout history..
All my posts are facts backed with solid sources.. you are stating mostly your opinion and talking about things you have no idea about..
Better be your last post..as you seem to be talking to yourself in a mirror..


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## SD 10

sami_1 said:


> Why do you cry from Egypt we are not enemies
> 
> You long years want to force us to buy this tea that your country produce
> 
> Egypt not force your country for example to buy M1a1 tank for example
> 
> go to your friend Turkish to purchase JF - 17
> 
> As for Egypt to buy from you, or Egypt becomes an underdeveloped country, and Egypt is an enemy country, and you must spread hatred and reduce it
> 
> Oh this Egypt exists thousands of years before Pakistan called it
> Also, Pakistan will end and Egypt will remain as it is we who write history
> 
> Egypt fought more than 900 wars, most of which were victorious and defeated in 12 war only
> 
> And why do you want to force us into a worst fourth-generation fighter that exists
> 
> Do pyramids cause you a problem or because you have no history and nothing
> 
> Try to be more gentle and smarter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you cry from Egypt we are not enemies
> 
> You long years want to force us to buy this tea that your country produce
> 
> Egypt not force your country for example to buy M1a1 tank for example
> 
> go to your friend Turkish to purchase JF - 17
> 
> As for Egypt to buy from you, or Egypt becomes an underdeveloped country, and Egypt is an enemy country, and you must spread hatred and reduce it
> 
> Oh this Egypt exists thousands of years before Pakistan called it
> Also, Pakistan will end and Egypt will remain as it is we who write history
> 
> Egypt fought more than 900 wars, most of which were victorious and defeated in 12 war only
> 
> And why do you want to force us into a worst fourth-generation fighter that exists
> 
> Do pyramids cause you a problem or because you have no history and nothing
> 
> Try to be more gentle and smarter


wtf did you just wrote? Brain farts?


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## PakFactor

The SC said:


> You must be very sick about an Arab victory..one of thousands like it throughout history..
> All my posts are facts backed with solid sources.. you are stating mostly your opinion and talking about things you have no idea about..
> Better be your last post..as you seem to be talking to yourself in a mirror..



You very own Chief of Staff Saad El-Shazly who lead the Egyptian Military in 1973 and was the chief architect maintains in his book The Crossing of the Suez; you lost the war. LOL

But if it helps you sleep well at night by all means Egypt won 1973 took over Israel and established a Palestinian homeland. And after every Jummah they have a falafel party in Palestine.

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## The SC

PakFactor said:


> You very own Chief of Staff Saad El-Shazly who lead the Egyptian Military in 1973 and was the chief architect maintains in his book The Crossing of the Suez; you lost the war. LOL
> 
> But if it helps you sleep well at night by all means Egypt won 1973 took over Israel and established a Palestinian homeland.


Come fight the US if you can..what Usrael..
Chazly was a brilliant tactical mind.. but no strategist like Sadat.. there is always diplomacy first ..the war is the extension of it if it fails.. Hence go find why this war has happened in the first place and see how many times Egypt asked Usrael to negotiate before the war, but it was always negative.. So call it what you want.. it was a victory on all fronts.. not only the IDF was defeated on the ground but the whole state of Usrael backed by the US lost diplomatically as it was forced to negotiate.... if you don't understand what is a victory then go educate yourself about it..

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## Trango Towers

The SC said:


> You want to stay ignorant and blind to facts? ..it is up to you.. All I can do is try to help you open your eye..if you can..
> 
> The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that  Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:
> "For many years we have fought wars (de Lux), where we demonstrated ... mobilizing a fight for a few days, ending in with a swift victory, returning home to father, wife and work.
> In the Yom Kippur War, the situation was very different. Preparedness in the army and beyond put pressure on the psyche of soldiers who still find it very difficult to understand the new situation created by the Kppur war. Today we need great efforts in the field of media. Soldiers ask many questions with no answers to them. And most of the answers to them are not true."
> 
> General Aharon Yariv, former director of military intelligence, says:
> There is no doubt that the Arabs have emerged victorious from the war. As we came out we were crushed and weak
> 
> Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.
> 
> Aaron Geva The Jerusalem Newspaper Davar: The Arabs do not give in to force
> 
> *
> Israel recognizes the mistakes of its defeat in the October 1973 war*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Head of State, Reuven Rivlin
> 
> "Voice of Israel" radio, Broadcast the Israeli president's remarks, Roovin Rivlin made on Sunday, he said that during the Yom Kippur War "October 1973" witnessed significant errors within the army and the Israeli leadership, the most important was to underestimate the enemy, "the Egyptian army."
> 
> He explained during the military ceremony which was held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem, that the most important mistakes committed by the army of Israel was excessive vanity and disdain for the capabilities of the enemy and the lack of training and preparation of Israel's soldiers to fight against a strong army.
> 
> The Israeli President added, that after 41 years of the October war, we can not forgive or pardon the mistakes we made, and we do not have the time to search for negligence or accusation of the perpetrators of the defeat, but we must draw examples and lessons from the mistakes of the past.
> 
> General Sharon said about the third army:
> To tell you the truth, we did not know who was surrounding whom
> 
> So who are you to contradict these top ranking Usraelis???
> 
> And this is The Egyptian armed forces at war and after the end of 1973 Ramadan war
> Does it look like a defeated armed forces for you..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the IDF soldiers celebrating their escape from the gap.. they are praising Sadat for letting them go and not destroying them right there..


Ground check...before ww2...no Israeli. It was palestine.
After ww2 israel became a nation on arab land.

Reality check. Arab land is under israel...

Rest of what you say is bull..

Have a nice day

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## Amun

Trango Towers said:


> Ground check...before ww2...no Israeli. It was palestine.
> After ww2 israel became a nation on arab land.
> 
> Reality check. Arab land is under israel...
> 
> Rest of what you say is bull..
> 
> Have a nice day



*Do you see the logic...?! @BATMAN @StormBreaker @The SC do you guys see the logic here....?!

he can’t differentiate between Arab countries....!!

I wonder, why people with such a shallow knowledge about something..... giving their opinions...!?*

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## StormBreaker

Amun said:


> *Do you see the logic...?! @BATMAN @StormBreaker @The SC do you guys see the logic here....?!
> 
> he can’t differentiate between Arab countries....!!
> 
> I wonder, why people with such a shallow knowledge about something..... giving their opinions...!?*


I believe his concept was that Palestine was An Arab land but now that it is forcefully occupied, so he means to say that “An Arab land (Palestine) is under Israel”

BTW Bro, You should consider participating more, There is a lack of Arabs on the forum, Always fascinating to see Arabs talk amongst...

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## Genghis khan1

The SC said:


> In reality the Arabs were fighting the whole support of Usrael, not the small country you see..mainly Europe and the US.. So try to defeat that.. at least Egypt got its lands back.. Syria got back its city Kuneitera in The Golan despite the West full backing of Usrael..
> 
> 
> Well Mr delusional, you are just proving it with your contradictions in the same post..Go play with dome kids somewhere and never tackle a subject you have no knowledge about..All you have being doing is contradicting yourself in each and every post.. so go troll kids somewhere else..


Isreal is just 10 miles across into ocean from its narrow point. No Western country took active combat involvement into war. So Arabs weren’t fighting anyone else. Arabs were armed to teeth by Soviets , the same way Isreal was supported by US.

After the war, Isreal came out on top and Arabs Neighbour compromised their stance and signed peace treaties for aid. 

There is a reason, every country consider Arabs peninsula a walkover. At a mercy of any aggressor.

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## Amun

StormBreaker said:


> I believe his concept was that Palestine was An Arab land but now that it is forcefully occupied, so he means to say that “An Arab land (Palestine) is under Israel”
> 
> BTW Bro, You should consider participating more, There is a lack of Arabs on the forum, Always fascinating to see Arabs talk amongst...



yes ..... but Alquds is not Arab thing ..... Alquds and Alaqsa Mosque is a Muslim thing ... and throughout the history we have defended it as Arabs and as Egyptians .....
remember who ...
- opened Alquds and spreaded justice in it .... Muslim Arabs of Arabia..
- Who stopped the Mongols from destroying Alquds / Mecca / Medina .in Ainjalut battle..Egyptians ( Arabs) ..
- Who Defeated the Crusaders and returned Alquds back to Muslims after 88 years of occupation .... Egyptian- Muslims army ( Arabs) led by Salaheldin .

- Who protected Mecca and Medina from Portuguese invaders ..... Egyptians ( Arabs).
- Who fought Israel many wars to return Alquds ..... Arabs.

Now you see .... this is a war of thousands of years ... Israel presence is a lost battle ..... but one day the war will continue till we win it inshaaallah we believe in that .... ....

now who do you think will fight the next war ...... Turks of NATO ...?! that Pakistani keyboard warrior....?! ( no offense) A BIG NOOOOO .... it will be also ARABS .


as for participating in PDF .... I will try brother but as you see we are not welcomed from Turks and Turks loving Pakistanis

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## Aspen

I hope some day they buy it. Orders from countries like Egypt are exactly what is needed to prove to the world that JF-17 Block III is as good as any 4th gen fighter out there.


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## Genghis khan1

Amun said:


> yes ..... but Alquds is not Arab thing ..... Alquds and Alaqsa Mosque is a Muslim thing ... and throughout the history we have defended it as Arabs and as Egyptians .....
> remember who ...
> - opened Alquds and spreaded justice in it .... Muslim Arabs of Arabia..
> - Who stopped the Mongols from destroying Alquds / Mecca / Medina .in Ainjalut battle..Egyptians ( Arabs) ..
> - Who Defeated the Crusaders and returned Alquds back to Muslims after 88 years of occupation .... Egyptian- Muslims army ( Arabs) led by Salaheldin .
> 
> - Who protected Mecca and Medina from Portuguese invaders ..... Egyptians ( Arabs).
> - Who fought Israel many wars to return Alquds ..... Arabs.
> 
> Now you see .... this is a war of thousands of years ... Israel presence is a lost battle ..... but one day the war will continue till we win it inshaaallah we believe in that .... ....
> 
> now who do you think will fight the next war ...... Turks of NATO ...?! that Pakistani keyboard warrior....?! ( no offense) A BIG NOOOOO .... it will be also ARABS .
> 
> 
> as for participating in PDF .... I will try brother but as you see we are not welcomed from Turks and Turks loving Pakistanis



Yes, most probably a Turk or a Key board Pakistani. Do you know why???

Salahudin was not Arab but Kurd. 
Baybars who defeated Mongols was not Arab but Turk. 

Arab ruler of Egypt was defeated by mongols and ran away when Baybars took charge and defeated Mongols. Baybars (Turk) become sultan of Egypt.

Btw Saladin defeated Egypt (Shia ruler) before fighting Crusaders.

My friend issue is that Arabs lie to themselves to satisfy their ego. Most probably due their Evolution in Harsh desert And tribal Customers. My Iraq course mate use to called out by instructors to be hard headed and wouldn’t listen. May be this Ego And hard headedness played role back in old days for Tribes survival but today, it’s Holding Arab back.

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## Philip the Arab

Genghis khan1 said:


> Salahudin was not Arab but Kurd.
> Baybars who defeated Mongols was not Arab but Turk.


They were both completely Arabized.

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## Amun

Genghis khan1 said:


> Yes, most probably a Turk or a Key board Pakistani. Do you know why???
> 
> Salahudin was not Arab but Kurd.
> Baybars who defeated Mongols was not Arab but Turk.
> 
> Arab ruler of Egypt was defeated by mongols and ran away when Baybars took charge and defeated Mongols. Baybars (Turk) become sultan of Egypt.



*the Turks here in PDF acknowledged that nothing Turkish about them ..... so you come now and say this false propaganda....

the leader of Egyptian army who marched from Egypt to defeat Mongols leaded by Qutuz not Baybars ..... 
and both are Egyptians more than being any thing else .... they brought to Egypt while they are young.... 5-10 years .... lived in Egypt , Married in Egypt , died for Egypt and buried in Egypt... and to be fair.... at that time there is no specific boarders ... and nationalities are not clear .... but once you enter Sinai .... this means you have reached Egypt ( the same name .... the same place for 7,000 years and more).
*
https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Ayn-Jalut
*Battle of ʿAyn Jālūt, ʿAyn Jālūt also spelled Ain Jalut, (September 3, 1260), decisive victory of the Mamlūks of Egypt over the invading Mongols, which saved Egypt and Islam and halted the westward expansion of the Mongol empire.


As for Salaheldin yes he is originally Kurdish / Muslim hero .... leaded Muslims ( Mainly Egyptian) armies to open Jerusalem....I was specific in that point.... saying led by Salaheldin.....

and in all cases be it Mongols defeat in Ain Jalut or in Heten Battles.... Levant nearly fallen in hands of Mongols and Crusaders.... so the backbone of the Army Was Egyptian soldiers.....


In our Egyptian 7,000 years of history ..... we have met people like you need to steal our history .... you are not the first one ..... 
Some people said ancient Egyptians are Europeans ..... others said they are black Africans ..... some said Aliens built the pyramids ..... so you are not surprising me ..... I have met many other people like you .... but honestly, they offer references and once you show them the facts .... they accept it.*

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## Genghis khan1

Amun said:


> *the Turks here in PDF acknowledged that nothing Turkish about them ..... so you come now and say this false propaganda....
> 
> the leader of Egyptian army who marched from Egypt to defeat Mongols leaded by Qutuz not Baybars .....
> and both are Egyptians more than being any thing else .... they brought to Egypt while they are young.... 5-10 years .... lived in Egypt , Married in Egypt , died for Egypt and buried in Egypt
> *
> https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Ayn-Jalut
> *Battle of ʿAyn Jālūt, ʿAyn Jālūt also spelled Ain Jalut, (September 3, 1260), decisive victory of the Mamlūks of Egypt over the invading Mongols, which saved Egypt and Islam and halted the westward expansion of the Mongol empire.
> 
> 
> As for Salaheldin yes he is originally Kurdish / Muslim hero .... leaded Muslims ( Mainly Egyptian) armies to open Jerusalem....I was specific in that point.... saying led by Salaheldin.....
> 
> and in all cases be it Mongols defeat in Ain Jalut or in Heten Battles.... Levant nearly fallen in hands of Mongols and Crusaders.... so the backbone of the Army Was Egyptian soldiers.....
> 
> 
> In our Egyptian 7,000 years of history ..... we have met people like you need to steal our history .... you are not the first one .....
> Some people said ancient Egyptians are Europeans ..... others said they are black Africans ..... some said Aliens built the pyramids ..... so you are not surprising me ..... I have met many other people like you .... but honestly, they offer references and once you show them the facts .... they accept it.*


This has already been discussed on PDF many times over.
You can’t change history. Read book or two.
You can’t change genetics of Saladin or Baybars and call them Arabs.

You can’t change the fact that Saladin defeated Egypt Arab Ruler before marching onto juleslum.

Can’t change the fact that Arab leader of Egypt Army was defeated by mongols and later it was a non Arabs that defeated Mongols.

From you own links, can proved that Turks were prized worriers in Arabs armies.

So if leaders were non Arabs, prized worriers were non Arabs, than why it’s you are the one claiming something, that’s only circumstantially happens to involve Arabs.

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## Amun

Genghis khan1 said:


> This has already been discussed on PDF many times over.
> You can’t change history. Read book or two.
> You can’t change genetics of Saladin or Baybars and call them Arabs.
> 
> You can’t change the fact that Saladin defeated Egypt Arab Ruler before marching onto juleslum.
> 
> Can’t change the fact that Arab leader of Egypt Army was defeated and it was a non Arabs that defeated Mongols.
> 
> From you own links, can proved that Turks were prized worriers in Arabs armies.
> 
> So if leaders were non Arabs, prized worries were non Arabs, than why it’s you are the one claiming something, that’s only circumstantially happens to involve Arabs.



As I expected .... just another troll ..... no source ... no data ... all false propaganda and just hate .... it’s Britannica ... not my source.... if you know Britannica ..... I don’t know what false history you people have learned ....

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## Genghis khan1

Amun said:


> As I expected .... just another troll ..... no source ... no data ... all false propaganda and just hate .... it’s Britannica ... not my source.... if you know Britannica ..... I don’t know what false history you people have learned ....


Dude I got no stake in it. If it was Egyptian, Turk, Arab or whoever. I just busted your fake claims and lies. 

This is JF-17 thread. Your historical claims has been busted many times over in other thread with all the links by much more history savvy members. 

So read on our own and move on.


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## Amun

Genghis khan1 said:


> Btw Saladin defeated Egypt (Shia ruler) before fighting Crusaders.
> 
> My friend issue is that Arabs lie to themselves to satisfy their ego. Most probably due their Evolution in Harsh desert And tribal Customers. My Iraq course mate use to called out by instructors to be hard headed and wouldn’t listen. May be this Ego And hard headedness played role back in old days for Tribes survival but today, it’s Holding Arab back.



BTW the Shia leaders during that time was from Morocco but Egyptians haven’t been turned shiaa.....

about being raised in Harsh deserts .... plz .... what are you taking about .... Do you refer to Egypt .... Just read even a few links to know what are you taking about....

about your Iraqi friend .... don’t let your personal experience affects your logical thinking.



Genghis khan1 said:


> Dude I got no stake in it. If it was Egyptian, Turk, Arab or whoever. I just busted your fake claims and lies.
> 
> This is JF-17 thread. Your historical claims has been busted many times over in other thread with all the links by much more history savvy members.
> 
> So read on our own and move on.



all what I see is just claims with no sources .... let who ever lied to you come and gets into respectful debate WITH RESPECTFUL SOURCES .... not like as we know or as confirmed things ... with source out of Turks or Arabs ( be it international sources) but for your info we have here in Cairo some Original books back to 700 years and more about those events .

or just mention me in one of those False and fake propaganda threads to let him think again and READ .....!!


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## gangsta_rap

Philip the Arab said:


> They were both completely Arabized.


not sure about beybars...he even drank kumis apparantly


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## Philip the Arab

Angry Easterling said:


> not sure about beybars...he even drank kumis apparantly


He spoke Arabic fluently, and his kids become Arab after he died. He never tried to be Turkish culturally like Ottomans did.

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## Amun

Trango Towers said:


> How dumb are you...if there was a medal I would give it to u
> 
> USELESS PEOPLE ONLY MAKE EXCUSES. YOU ARE LIKE THIS AND SADLY YOU WILL TEACH YOUR KIDS TO BE LIKE THIS



just a big mouth .... with a small brain..... pathetic...!!


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## Philip the Arab

Amun said:


> just a big mouth .... with a small brain..... pathetic...!!


Lol you are actually arguing with Trango the nerd? I have had this khanzir on my block list for months and I suggest you do the same.


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## Amun

Philip the Arab said:


> Lol you are actually arguing with Trango the nerd? I have had this khanzir on my block list for months and I suggest you do the same.



I will try the first block in PDF for me to him as I trust you...


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## gangsta_rap

Philip the Arab said:


> He spoke Arabic fluently, and his kids become Arab after he died. He never tried to be Turkish culturally like Ottomans did.


i do admit that there is a clear distinction between pre ottoman mamluks and post ottoman mamluks. thats why figures like muhammad ali (he was albanian/balkan) identified moreso with turks rather than arabs

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## Armchair

I think it is unwise to sell the block 3 to Egypt. They will hand it in to the Israelis for a full test and evaluation, who will then pass it on to the monkeys in India.

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## Philip the Arab

Armchair said:


> I think it is unwise to sell the block 3 to Egypt. They will hand it in to the Israelis for a full test and evaluation, who will then pass it on to the monkeys in India.


I mean, It would be stupid to not assume the Nigerians are already going to let the Israelis have a peek at the Block 2.


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## gangsta_rap

Armchair said:


> I think it is unwise to sell the block 3 to Egypt. They will hand it in to the Israelis for a full test and evaluation, who will then pass it on to the monkeys in India.


if the azeris do get their hands on fc-1 jets they will definitely ask for israeli upgrades.

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## Amun

Armchair said:


> I think it is unwise to sell the block 3 to Egypt. They will hand it in to the Israelis for a full test and evaluation, who will then pass it on to the monkeys in India.



so Israel which has F-35 / F-15 and F-16s ... and the first opponent to Egypt that has ( Rafales, SU-35 , MIG-29 M2 and F-16 ... will take block 3 from Egypt to counteract those 50 or some thing fighters bought or co-produced in Egypt ..... then handled it to India .... 

Do you work as a marketer for JF-17 factory....!? It suits you.


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## Armchair

my dear Israel would love to get their hands on the JFT not as a defense procurement, but from an EW analysis POV. I wouldn't expect you to understand that but that's okay.

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## Philip the Arab

Angry Easterling said:


> if the azeris do get their hands on fc-1 jets they will definitely ask for israeli upgrades.


Exactly.


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## Armchair

Philip the Arab said:


> I mean, It would be stupid to not assume the Nigerians are already going to let the Israelis have a peek at the Block 2.



Block 2 doesn't matter. The electronics on the block 3 are totally different. They are competitive to the Rafale.

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## Philip the Arab

Armchair said:


> Block 2 doesn't matter. The electronics on the block 3 are totally different. They are competitive to the Rafale.


If you say so...


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## Amun

Philip the Arab said:


> I mean, It would be stupid to not assume the Nigerians are already going to let the Israelis have a peek at the Block 2.




Manufacturers should think about Market requirements before letting the marketers work .....

what are the requirements of the EAF .....?! That is the point .... in points to end that Hassle for Egypt pros and cons in having JF-17 bIII

PROS
- An open sourced plan that can be equipped with many EW and weapons of different sources.
- Local production of weapons including Cruise Missiles.
- Manufacturing facilitates that creates jobs.
- has a promising platform that can has many future upgrades.
- has another friendly country operating the same plane.


Cons
- less capable than MIG-29 .
- facing too many capable fighters in ME including F-15 and F-35.
- supply chain ( some parts will be locally produced others comes from Pakistan... others from China)
- Hostilities against Egypt/ Arabs and Moody mindset of some Pakistanis ( as I’m seeing here) that may lead to stopping the cooperation.
- Turkish- Pakistani relations that may lead to the Turks will get a considerable knowledge about the platform that will end up in Israeli hands as a part of Billions USD military cooperation between Turkey and Israel to counter Egyptian - Greek cooperation.

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## Philip the Arab

Amun said:


> Manufacturers should think about Market requirements before letting the marketers work .....
> 
> what are the requirements of the EAF .....?! That is the point .... in points to end that Hassle for Egypt pros and cons in having JF-17 bIII
> 
> PROS
> - An open sourced plan that can be equipped with many EW and weapons of different sources.
> - Local production of weapons including Cruise Missiles.
> - Manufacturing facilitates that creates jobs.
> - has a promising platform that can has many future upgrades.
> - has another friendly country operating the same plane.
> 
> 
> Cons
> - less capable than MIG-29 .
> - facing too many capable fighters in ME including F-15 and F-35.
> - supply chain ( some parts will be locally produced others comes from Pakistan... others from China)
> - Hostilities against Egypt/ Arabs and Moody mindset of some Pakistanis ( as I’m seeing here) that may lead to stopping the cooperation.
> - Turkish- Pakistani relations that may lead to the Turks will get a considerable knowledge about the platform that will end up in Israeli hands as a part of Billions USD military cooperation between Turkey and Israel to counter Egyptian - Greek cooperation.


Brother you make some great points, all in all I thinks its worth it in the long run.

Usrael air force would not be a problem if Egypt could manage to take out it's airbases on the ground, but Mossad is very skilled at it's job so that may be hard.


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## Trango Towers

Amun said:


> just a big mouth .... with a small brain..... pathetic...!!


Well at we have a brain...you have sand between your ears.

Palestine is not arab land...you slaves of the yahood. Lanat is upon you for sure.

How do u sleep at night with such lies and denials. It's so sad that you spend you life making excuses instead of facing your enemies. But you have made your enemies your masters havent you.

I know many many good arabs in real life. Excellent men. Excellent character...you I can say with confidence are the genetic crap of the arabs



Philip the Arab said:


> Lol you are actually arguing with Trango the nerd? I have had this khanzir on my block list for months and I suggest you do the same.


I am a nerd...here is another arab...licking jewish boots...pathetic. jahil Bedouin all of you. Where is your boss Khafee....oh he in in hiding after the block 70 lies...lying is natural to the arabs..

Remember easops fables. He wrote thousands of years ago

Arabs are a cart full of mischief. How true he was.

And why did all the prophets come to you...oh because you were the worst of creation. Nothing has changed o slave of the jews. You are still a pathetic and crap people.


You dont like me because when you attack me unnecessarily like you have done here..I take you pants off in public and you arabs like being humiliated font you. REMEMBER YOU ATTACKED ME FIRST



Amun said:


> so Israel which has F-35 / F-15 and F-16s ... and the first opponent to Egypt that has ( Rafales, SU-35 , MIG-29 M2 and F-16 ... will take block 3 from Egypt to counteract those 50 or some thing fighters bought or co-produced in Egypt ..... then handled it to India ....
> 
> Do you work as a marketer for JF-17 factory....!? It suits you.


Amun...a name taken from Amun Ra. The king of pharaohic gods. Men with small wewe have big names.

You can have f22 and f35s only...and outnumber israel 10 to 1. They will still whoop you because you are talkers not fighters


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## Aspen

Armchair said:


> I think it is unwise to sell the block 3 to Egypt. They will hand it in to the Israelis for a full test and evaluation, who will then pass it on to the monkeys in India.



This is what I am most afraid of. I don't want to sell JF-17 to any country that could indirectly lead to it being used against us. So that basically eliminates any country which has good relations with Israel as Israelis will give that technology to India for sure.

So that eliminates:

Egypt
Saudi
UAE
Qatar
Azerbaijan

I would be ok with giving a basic model of JF-17 to Sri Lanka/Bangladesh for strategic reasons but nothing should be on it that we don't want India to see if it gets into wrong hands.

The only countries I would 100% trust with JF-17 are Iran and Turkey.

Iran may reverse engineer JF-17 but I do not ever see them using it against us and they will never leak its tech to Israel which is good enough for me. In fact this could actually benefit us as Iran could help us improve JF-17 since they have so much aerospace experience with reverse engineering. What Iran does with JF-17 is anyone's guess, but US will start a war with Iran if they can get away with it and Iran has the right to a competent Air Force so they can defend themselves against any aggression and create a strong deterrent against any US or Israeli actions. A safe Iran is a safe Pakistan, so ultimately, I think selling JF-17 to Iran will benefit our regional security. Iran is probably one of the few countries that will use the full capabilities of JF-17 in combat as it is designed to be used given their enemies, so Pakistan will get some good feedback on the strengths and weaknesses of the plane so we can improve. A JF-17 would be the best plane in Iran's Air Force above their F-14's so JF-17 would get the most real use. In the event that an Iranian JF-17 shoots down an intruding Israeli or American jet against the likes of an F35, JF-17 will get a lot of good publicity and reputation as a true killer.

I also trust Turkey for the same reason that they have a lot of aerospace experience and their strong industry could probably help make the JF-17 much better with some Turkish avionics and engine upgrades. Turkey at the moment has enough of a backbone and strong relation with Pakistan that I trust they would never leak JF-17 tech to Israel. What concerns me about Turkey is that Erdogan gov't doesn't like Israel but a future gov't might leak it. So I would still trust Iran more than Turkey with JF-17 but probably no one else that is in our immediate region.

Nigeria and Malaysia should get JF-17 with good equipment as they are not a threat to us but with strict conditions to not leak it to India or Israel.

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## Armchair

Aspen said:


> This is what I am most afraid of. I don't want to sell JF-17 to any country that could indirectly lead to it being used against us. So that basically eliminates any country which has good relations with Israel as Israelis will give that technology to India for sure.
> 
> So that eliminates:
> 
> Egypt
> Saudi
> UAE
> Qatar
> Azerbaijan
> 
> I would be ok with giving a basic model of JF-17 to Sri Lanka/Bangladesh for strategic reasons but nothing should be on it that we don't want India to see if it gets into wrong hands.
> 
> The only countries I would 100% trust with JF-17 are Iran and Turkey.
> 
> Iran may reverse engineer JF-17 but I do not ever see them using it against us and they will never leak its tech to Israel which is good enough for me. In fact this could actually benefit us as Iran could help us improve JF-17 since they have so much aerospace experience with reverse engineering.
> 
> I also trust Turkey for the same reason that they have a lot of aerospace experience and their strong industry could probably help make the JF-17 much better with some Turkish avionics and engine upgrades. Turkey at the moment has enough of a backbone and strong relation with Pakistan that I trust they would never leak JF-17 tech to Israel. What concerns me about Turkey is that Erdogan gov't doesn't like Israel but a future gov't might leak it. So I would still trust Iran more than Turkey with JF-17 but probably no one else that is in our immediate region.
> 
> Nigeria and Malaysia should get JF-17 with good equipment as they are not a threat to us but with strict conditions to not leak it to India or Israel.




Pak needs to sell them a downgraded version suitable for them. Definitely not the same EW equipment and not the same radar and RWR. Perhaps source them from chinese cr@p and use the other AESA that didn't win the Pak tender. 

They don't really know much about real capabilities, they just go with the bling. Give them some bling and brown envelopes they will be happy to buy.

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## The SC

Amun said:


> *Do you see the logic...?! @BATMAN @StormBreaker @The SC do you guys see the logic here....?!
> 
> he can’t differentiate between Arab countries....!!
> 
> I wonder, why people with such a shallow knowledge about something..... giving their opinions...!?*


The guy has no knowledge of the history of the ME.. all he seems to have is some venom in his heart against Arabs..which is bad for his health..



StormBreaker said:


> I believe his concept was that Palestine was An Arab land but now that it is forcefully occupied, so he means to say that “An Arab land (Palestine) is under Israel”
> 
> BTW Bro, You should consider participating more, There is a lack of Arabs on the forum, Always fascinating to see Arabs talk amongst...


He forgot that Al Aqsa (Quds) is Muslim land..
He also forgot that Palestine was already occupied by Britain before handing it to the Jews after WW2.. and that came as the Palestinians supported the Germans..obviously because they hated their British occupiers..



Genghis khan1 said:


> Isreal is just 10 miles across into ocean from its narrow point. No Western country took active combat involvement into war. So Arabs weren’t fighting anyone else. Arabs were armed to teeth by Soviets , the same way Isreal was supported by US.
> 
> After the war, Isreal came out on top and Arabs Neighbour compromised their stance and signed peace treaties for aid.
> 
> There is a reason, every country consider Arabs peninsula a walkover. At a mercy of any aggressor.


WOW.. sounds so simple from a simple mind.. I guess that is as far as you can go about something you have no clue about or just some venom eating you inside for who knows what reason..

The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that  Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:
"For many years we have fought wars (de Lux), where we demonstrated ... mobilizing a fight for a few days, ending in with a swift victory, returning home to father, wife and work.
In the Yom Kippur War, the situation was very different. Preparedness in the army and beyond put pressure on the psyche of soldiers who still find it very difficult to understand the new situation created by the Kippur war. Today we need great efforts in the field of media. Soldiers ask many questions with no answers to them. And most of the answers to them are not true."

General Aharon Yariv, former director of military intelligence, says:
There is no doubt that the Arabs have emerged victorious from the war. As we came out we were crushed and weak

Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.

Aaron Geva The Jerusalem Newspaper Davar: The Arabs do not give in to force 

*
Israel recognizes the mistakes of its defeat in the October 1973 war*






Head of State, Reuven Rivlin

"Voice of Israel" radio, Broadcast the Israeli president's remarks, Roovin Rivlin made on Sunday, he said that during the Yom Kippur War "October 1973" witnessed significant errors within the army and the Israeli leadership, the most important was to underestimate the enemy, "the Egyptian army."

He explained during the military ceremony which was held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem, that the most important mistakes committed by the army of Israel was excessive vanity and disdain for the capabilities of the enemy and the lack of training and preparation of Israel's soldiers to fight against a strong army.

The Israeli President added, that after 41 years of the October war, we can not forgive or pardon the mistakes we made, and we do not have the time to search for negligence or accusation of the perpetrators of the defeat, but we must draw examples and lessons from the mistakes of the past.

General Sharon said about the third army:
To tell you the truth, we did not know who was surrounding whom

So who are you to contradict these top ranking Usraelis???

And this is The Egyptian armed forces at war and after the end of 1973 Ramadan war
Does it look like a defeated armed forces for you..





These are the IDF soldiers celebrating their escape from the gap.. they are praising Sadat for letting them go and not destroying them right there..

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## Armchair

The SC said:


> The guy has no knowledge of the history of the ME.. all he seems to have is some venom in his heart against Arabs..which is bad for his health..
> 
> 
> He forgot that Al Aqsa (Quds) is Muslim land..
> He also forgot that Palestine was already occupied by Britain before handing it to the Jews after WW2.. and that came as the Palestinians supported the Germans..obviously because they hated their British occupiers..



It is surprising that a senior member like you would be repeating Zionist propaganda. The Palestinians sided with the British, acting as guides and informants against the Ottomans. They also welcomed initial waves of Jewish refugees, who never went back.

It goes to the Jewish prowess in mass media that they have managed to spread their propaganda even among Muslims.

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## The SC

Genghis khan1 said:


> This has already been discussed on PDF many times over.
> You can’t change history. Read book or two.
> You can’t change genetics of Saladin or Baybars and call them Arabs.
> 
> You can’t change the fact that Saladin defeated Egypt Arab Ruler before marching onto juleslum.
> 
> Can’t change the fact that Arab leader of Egypt Army was defeated by mongols and later it was a non Arabs that defeated Mongols.
> 
> From you own links, can proved that Turks were prized worriers in Arabs armies.
> 
> So if leaders were non Arabs, prized worriers were non Arabs, than why it’s you are the one claiming something, that’s only circumstantially happens to involve Arabs.


You can't change the fact that our Prophet asws was Arab.. and the fact that20 thousand Arabs managed to defeat two empires at the same time.. the Persian and the Roman.. the fact is that you need to read hundreds and thousands of books to get a glimpse about the ME and Arabs history .. not even mentioning the cradle of civilisation Mesopotamia and Egypt..These are the facts.. now go educate yourself..



Aspen said:


> I hope some day they buy it. Orders from countries like Egypt are exactly what is needed to prove to the world that JF-17 Block III is as good as any 4th gen fighter out there.


Not only Egypt..KSA too will buy it....

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## Maxpane

The SC said:


> You can't change the fact that our Prophet asws was Arab.. and the fact that20 thousand Arabs managed to defeat two empires at the same time.. the Persian and the Roman.. the fact is that you need to read hundreds and thousands of books to get a glimpse about the ME and Arabs history .. not even mentioning the cradle of civilisation Mesopotamia and Egypt..These are the facts.. now go educate yourself..
> 
> 
> Not only Egypt..KSA too will buy it....


salam sir. sir how many jets is the requirement of KSA ? 
HaS KSA shown interest in jf 17?


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## The SC

Armchair said:


> It is surprising that a senior member like you would be repeating Zionist propaganda. The Palestinians sided with the British, acting as guides and informants against the Ottomans. They also welcomed initial waves of Jewish refugees, who never went back.
> 
> It goes to the Jewish prowess in mass media that they have managed to spread their propaganda even among Muslims.


Seems your ignorance has no limits.. go read a bit about the Mufti of Jerusalem..







https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/







You can't switch this to feel good about yourself.. You proved yourself dumb about the JF-17 sale.. and now on this too..Egypt or KSA can put any western Engine or avionics on the plane if they want to..And your country is closer to India than Pakistan or Arabs diplomatically speaking.. who are you trying to deceive here..



Maxpane said:


> salam sir. sir how many jets is the requirement of KSA ?
> HaS KSA shown interest in jf 17?


I remember a promise for a substantial quantity..
Yes, still following the progress closely..

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## Trango Towers

The SC said:


> The guy has no knowledge of the history of the ME.. all he seems to have is some venom in his heart against Arabs..which is bad for his health..
> 
> 
> He forgot that Al Aqsa (Quds) is Muslim land..
> He also forgot that Palestine was already occupied by Britain before handing it to the Jews after WW2.. and that came as the Palestinians supported the Germans..obviously because they hated their British occupiers..
> 
> 
> WOW.. sounds so simple from a simple mind.. I guess that is as far as you can go about something you have no clue about or just some venom eating you inside for who knows what reason..
> 
> The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that  Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:
> "For many years we have fought wars (de Lux), where we demonstrated ... mobilizing a fight for a few days, ending in with a swift victory, returning home to father, wife and work.
> In the Yom Kippur War, the situation was very different. Preparedness in the army and beyond put pressure on the psyche of soldiers who still find it very difficult to understand the new situation created by the Kippur war. Today we need great efforts in the field of media. Soldiers ask many questions with no answers to them. And most of the answers to them are not true."
> 
> General Aharon Yariv, former director of military intelligence, says:
> There is no doubt that the Arabs have emerged victorious from the war. As we came out we were crushed and weak
> 
> Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.
> 
> Aaron Geva The Jerusalem Newspaper Davar: The Arabs do not give in to force
> 
> *
> Israel recognizes the mistakes of its defeat in the October 1973 war*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Head of State, Reuven Rivlin
> 
> "Voice of Israel" radio, Broadcast the Israeli president's remarks, Roovin Rivlin made on Sunday, he said that during the Yom Kippur War "October 1973" witnessed significant errors within the army and the Israeli leadership, the most important was to underestimate the enemy, "the Egyptian army."
> 
> He explained during the military ceremony which was held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem, that the most important mistakes committed by the army of Israel was excessive vanity and disdain for the capabilities of the enemy and the lack of training and preparation of Israel's soldiers to fight against a strong army.
> 
> The Israeli President added, that after 41 years of the October war, we can not forgive or pardon the mistakes we made, and we do not have the time to search for negligence or accusation of the perpetrators of the defeat, but we must draw examples and lessons from the mistakes of the past.
> 
> General Sharon said about the third army:
> To tell you the truth, we did not know who was surrounding whom
> 
> So who are you to contradict these top ranking Usraelis???
> 
> And this is The Egyptian armed forces at war and after the end of 1973 Ramadan war
> Does it look like a defeated armed forces for you..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the IDF soldiers celebrating their escape from the gap.. they are praising Sadat for letting them go and not destroying them right there..


I have no knowledge of arab conflict and here is the excuse the loser arabs are using.

The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:

Now let's see the opinion of this one man...and for all I know SC made that up because lying is the new religion of the arabs vs what the world says.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab–Israeli_conflict

Now I guess the whole world is wrong and SC and Amun Ra are correct.

Dumb as soup the both of you



The SC said:


> The guy has no knowledge of the history of the ME.. all he seems to have is some venom in his heart against Arabs..which is bad for his health..
> 
> 
> He forgot that Al Aqsa (Quds) is Muslim land..
> He also forgot that Palestine was already occupied by Britain before handing it to the Jews after WW2.. and that came as the Palestinians supported the Germans..obviously because they hated their British occupiers..
> 
> 
> WOW.. sounds so simple from a simple mind.. I guess that is as far as you can go about something you have no clue about or just some venom eating you inside for who knows what reason..
> 
> The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that  Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:
> "For many years we have fought wars (de Lux), where we demonstrated ... mobilizing a fight for a few days, ending in with a swift victory, returning home to father, wife and work.
> In the Yom Kippur War, the situation was very different. Preparedness in the army and beyond put pressure on the psyche of soldiers who still find it very difficult to understand the new situation created by the Kippur war. Today we need great efforts in the field of media. Soldiers ask many questions with no answers to them. And most of the answers to them are not true."
> 
> General Aharon Yariv, former director of military intelligence, says:
> There is no doubt that the Arabs have emerged victorious from the war. As we came out we were crushed and weak
> 
> Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.
> 
> Aaron Geva The Jerusalem Newspaper Davar: The Arabs do not give in to force
> 
> *
> Israel recognizes the mistakes of its defeat in the October 1973 war*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Head of State, Reuven Rivlin
> 
> "Voice of Israel" radio, Broadcast the Israeli president's remarks, Roovin Rivlin made on Sunday, he said that during the Yom Kippur War "October 1973" witnessed significant errors within the army and the Israeli leadership, the most important was to underestimate the enemy, "the Egyptian army."
> 
> He explained during the military ceremony which was held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem, that the most important mistakes committed by the army of Israel was excessive vanity and disdain for the capabilities of the enemy and the lack of training and preparation of Israel's soldiers to fight against a strong army.
> 
> The Israeli President added, that after 41 years of the October war, we can not forgive or pardon the mistakes we made, and we do not have the time to search for negligence or accusation of the perpetrators of the defeat, but we must draw examples and lessons from the mistakes of the past.
> 
> General Sharon said about the third army:
> To tell you the truth, we did not know who was surrounding whom
> 
> So who are you to contradict these top ranking Usraelis???
> 
> And this is The Egyptian armed forces at war and after the end of 1973 Ramadan war
> Does it look like a defeated armed forces for you..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the IDF soldiers celebrating their escape from the gap.. they are praising Sadat for letting them go and not destroying them right there..


We do t forget Palestine was occupied by the british..the british were aided by treacherous arabs who help the British fight muslims forces under the command of the turkish. So Allah gave you jews for your treachery.
Pakistan was not created and when muslim soldiers in the then Indian army were ordered to fire upon the Turkish they refused and many were court martial and shot. This is why Pakistan and Turkey are close even today. 
So now talk habibi....all you habli babli smokes just blow smoke dont you. 
Regarding al aqsa. It was you pathetic arabs that lost the third holiest place. It was part of Jordan and the Israelis took it from you pathetic arabs. Read your history before talking. 

If I was one of you I would kill myself out of shame but you just eat extra bizer and sleep and wake up to talk more nonsense.

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## PakFactor

Trango Towers said:


> I have no knowledge of arab conflict and here is the excuse the loser arabs are using.
> 
> The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:
> 
> Now let's see the opinion of this one man...and for all I know SC made that up because lying is the new religion of the arabs vs what the world says.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab–Israeli_conflict
> 
> Now I guess the whole world is wrong and SC and Amun Ra are correct.
> 
> Dumb as soup the both of you
> 
> 
> We do t forget Palestine was occupied by the british..the british were aided by treacherous arabs who help the British fight muslims forces under the command of the turkish. So Allah gave you jews for your treachery.
> Pakistan was not created and when muslim soldiers in the then Indian army were ordered to fire upon the Turkish they refused and many were court martial and shot. This is why Pakistan and Turkey are close even today.
> So now talk habibi....all you habli babli smokes just blow smoke dont you.
> Regarding al aqsa. It was you pathetic arabs that lost the third holiest place. It was part of Jordan and the Israelis took it from you pathetic arabs. Read your history before talking.
> 
> If I was one of you I would kill myself out of shame but you just eat extra bizer and sleep and wake up to talk more nonsense.



Funny how he brings up some quotes that can’t be found online from any authentic source. 

However their own Chief of Staff who lead the Egyptian Armed Forces in that 1973 War wrote in his book (till this day still banned in Egypt) after he was politically exiled they lost the war and the Third Army was trapped. I posted a declassified CIA Report that gives a neutral perspective as well, which Egypt did good in initial stages as Israelis were busy with the Syrians in the strategically more important Golan Heights once that was done they punished the Egyptians who ran for a cease fire and Israelis didn’t acknowledge it for a few days until they got the upper hand and continued on to Cairo and Damascus. lol

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## Genghis khan1

The SC said:


> You can't change the fact that our Prophet asws was Arab.. and the fact that20 thousand Arabs managed to defeat two empires at the same time.. the Persian and the Roman.. the fact is that you need to read hundreds and thousands of books to get a glimpse about the ME and Arabs history .. not even mentioning the cradle of civilisation Mesopotamia and Egypt..These are the facts.. now go educate yourself..


Well, what All this have to do with Saladin being Kurd and Baybars bring Turk? 

Abu jahil was also Arab, should I start quoting Quran, how It’s refer Ignorance and backwardness of Arab culture and people compared to How it referred Jews For their knowledge. 

Or should I reference western historical books to compare The Might of Roman and Persian civilization to the desert tribes of “No ones cares” Arabian peninsula. 

Every history book, every Civilizations revolves around people from Greek to Indus and Mesopotamia in between. Desert of Arabian peninsula was irrelevant. Now there are book on Arabian history but so does every other culture and region. Doesn’t mean tribes of Arabian peninsula was any relevant to anything until the advent of Islam. 

But this had been discussed many times over on PDF and totally irrelevant to Defence forum.

Btw first victims of Islamic conquest was non other Than Arabs themselves. Their culture and traditions. There is a reason history refer to these conquests as Islamic and not Arabs.

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## Genghis khan1

The SC said:


> The guy has no knowledge of the history of the ME.. all he seems to have is some venom in his heart against Arabs..which is bad for his health..
> 
> 
> He forgot that Al Aqsa (Quds) is Muslim land..
> He also forgot that Palestine was already occupied by Britain before handing it to the Jews after WW2.. and that came as the Palestinians supported the Germans..obviously because they hated their British occupiers..
> 
> 
> WOW.. sounds so simple from a simple mind.. I guess that is as far as you can go about something you have no clue about or just some venom eating you inside for who knows what reason..
> 
> The Israeli writer (Eitan Hever) admits very recently on Maariv pages that  Israel did not face Arab armies except in the fourth war of 1973 says:
> "For many years we have fought wars (de Lux), where we demonstrated ... mobilizing a fight for a few days, ending in with a swift victory, returning home to father, wife and work.
> In the Yom Kippur War, the situation was very different. Preparedness in the army and beyond put pressure on the psyche of soldiers who still find it very difficult to understand the new situation created by the Kippur war. Today we need great efforts in the field of media. Soldiers ask many questions with no answers to them. And most of the answers to them are not true."
> 
> General Aharon Yariv, former director of military intelligence, says:
> There is no doubt that the Arabs have emerged victorious from the war. As we came out we were crushed and weak
> 
> Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.
> 
> Aaron Geva The Jerusalem Newspaper Davar: The Arabs do not give in to force
> 
> *
> Israel recognizes the mistakes of its defeat in the October 1973 war*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Head of State, Reuven Rivlin
> 
> "Voice of Israel" radio, Broadcast the Israeli president's remarks, Roovin Rivlin made on Sunday, he said that during the Yom Kippur War "October 1973" witnessed significant errors within the army and the Israeli leadership, the most important was to underestimate the enemy, "the Egyptian army."
> 
> He explained during the military ceremony which was held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem, that the most important mistakes committed by the army of Israel was excessive vanity and disdain for the capabilities of the enemy and the lack of training and preparation of Israel's soldiers to fight against a strong army.
> 
> The Israeli President added, that after 41 years of the October war, we can not forgive or pardon the mistakes we made, and we do not have the time to search for negligence or accusation of the perpetrators of the defeat, but we must draw examples and lessons from the mistakes of the past.
> 
> General Sharon said about the third army:
> To tell you the truth, we did not know who was surrounding whom
> 
> So who are you to contradict these top ranking Usraelis???
> 
> And this is The Egyptian armed forces at war and after the end of 1973 Ramadan war
> Does it look like a defeated armed forces for you..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the IDF soldiers celebrating their escape from the gap.. they are praising Sadat for letting them go and not destroying them right there..


My fiends Israeli are real serious about their safety and they fully realize the odds against them. So it’s quite understandable them being critical of their short comings. Same way Pakistanis are very critical of its military. We know odds are against us and margin of error is low. For Israelis, It’s very low.

You don’t needs to copy paste every Lengthy articles. The Day Arab realize their short comings and be critical like Israeli instead of self gratification, is the day ME will change. 

For you ease, let me break it down at a 6 year old level.

*There is fight between 2 kids. *

_Kid 1 Weight Aprox 8 stones. 
Vs 
Kids 2 weight 9 stones
(But kids 2 is not alone) 
His brother weight 16 stones. 
His older brother weight 100 stone. _

In round 1 kid one preemptive strikes and kick Kid 2 and his brother *** and take their candy.

Older and heavier brother of kid 2 was furious for losing his candy in such a humiliating manner. They all train and prepare for round 2.

This time kid 2 and brother stuck preemptively and After a quick slap, he mange to take his candy back, but still failed to take any of kid 1 stuff or decisively show his dominance despite their combined weight of 135 stones.

Every body in the school watch the quarrel and call it a win for kids 1.

After such a nasty outcome, kids 2 and brothers decided to sign a truce, but would argue rest of the school, how they actually won.



Amun said:


> BTW the Shia leaders during that time was from Morocco but Egyptians haven’t been turned shiaa.....
> 
> about being raised in Harsh deserts .... plz .... what are you taking about .... Do you refer to Egypt .... Just read even a few links to know what are you taking about....
> 
> about your Iraqi friend .... don’t let your personal experience affects your logical thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> all what I see is just claims with no sources .... let who ever lied to you come and gets into respectful debate WITH RESPECTFUL SOURCES .... not like as we know or as confirmed things ... with source out of Turks or Arabs ( be it international sources) but for your info we have here in Cairo some Original books back to 700 years and more about those events .
> 
> or just mention me in one of those False and fake propaganda threads to let him think again and READ .....!!



It’s not a Arabian history Thread and I am not interested in googling Arabian history as it’s like beating a dead horse. 

if you know history so well then debunked the facts that Baybars and Saladin were not Arabs. 

I will correct myself and move on. If you don’t have anything, than deal with the Historical reality and move on.

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## SD 10

I just hope, Egyp buys gripen or something else. Good for them and good for us.


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## Amun

Genghis khan1 said:


> My fiends Israeli are real serious about their safety and they fully realize the odds against them. So it’s quite understandable them being critical of their short comings. Same way Pakistanis are very critical of its military. We know odds are against us and margin of error is low. For Israelis, It’s very low.
> 
> You don’t needs to copy paste every Lengthy articles. The Day Arab realize their short comings and be critical like Israeli instead of self gratification, is the day ME will change.
> 
> For you ease, let me break it down at a 6 year old level.
> 
> *There is fight between 2 kids. *
> 
> _Kid 1 Weight Aprox 8 stones.
> Vs
> Kids 2 weight 9 stones
> (But kids 2 is not alone)
> His brother weight 16 stones.
> His older brother weight 100 stone. _
> 
> In round 1 kid one preemptive strikes and kick Kid 2 and his brother *** and take their candy.
> 
> Older and heavier brother of kid 2 was furious for losing his candy in such a humiliating manner. They all train and prepare for round 2.
> 
> This time kid 2 and brother stuck preemptively and After a quick slap, he mange to take his candy back, but still failed to take any of kid 1 stuff or decisively show his dominance despite their combined weight of 135 stones.
> 
> Every body in the school watch the quarrel and call it a win for kids 1.
> 
> After such a nasty outcome, kids 2 and brothers decided to sign a truce, but would argue rest of the school, how they actually won.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s not a Arabian history Thread and I am not interested in googling Arabian history as it’s like beating a dead horse.
> 
> if you know history so well then debunked the facts that Baybars and Saladin were not Arabs.
> 
> I will correct myself and move on. If you don’t have anything, than deal with the Historical reality and move on.



2 tips
1- It is not Arabian history.... it is Islamic history .... defending the heart of Islam in Mecca , Medina and Alquds .... is Islamic . If you ever care.
2- If you don’t want to read for more correct info .... then why you write about the issue.

salam


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## The SC

Genghis khan1 said:


> Well, what All this have to do with Saladin being Kurd and Baybars bring Turk?
> 
> Abu jahil was also Arab, should I start quoting Quran, how It’s refer Ignorance and backwardness of Arab culture and people compared to How it referred Jews For their knowledge.
> 
> Or should I reference western historical books to compare The Might of Roman and Persian civilization to the desert tribes of “No ones cares” Arabian peninsula.
> 
> Every history book, every Civilizations revolves around people from Greek to Indus and Mesopotamia in between. Desert of Arabian peninsula was irrelevant. Now there are book on Arabian history but so does every other culture and region. Doesn’t mean tribes of Arabian peninsula was any relevant to anything until the advent of Islam.
> 
> But this had been discussed many times over on PDF and totally irrelevant to Defence forum.
> 
> Btw first victims of Islamic conquest was non other Than Arabs themselves. Their culture and traditions. There is a reason history refer to these conquests as Islamic and not Arabs.


Seems you have not heard about Mesopotamia..ever
And comparing the prophet asws with Abu Jahl is jahl (ignorance) in it self..



Genghis khan1 said:


> My fiends Israeli are real serious about their safety and they fully realize the odds against them. So it’s quite understandable them being critical of their short comings. Same way Pakistanis are very critical of its military. We know odds are against us and margin of error is low. For Israelis, It’s very low.
> 
> You don’t needs to copy paste every Lengthy articles. The Day Arab realize their short comings and be critical like Israeli instead of self gratification, is the day ME will change.
> 
> For you ease, let me break it down at a 6 year old level.
> 
> *There is fight between 2 kids. *
> 
> _Kid 1 Weight Aprox 8 stones.
> Vs
> Kids 2 weight 9 stones
> (But kids 2 is not alone)
> His brother weight 16 stones.
> His older brother weight 100 stone. _
> 
> In round 1 kid one preemptive strikes and kick Kid 2 and his brother *** and take their candy.
> 
> Older and heavier brother of kid 2 was furious for losing his candy in such a humiliating manner. They all train and prepare for round 2.
> 
> This time kid 2 and brother stuck preemptively and After a quick slap, he mange to take his candy back, but still failed to take any of kid 1 stuff or decisively show his dominance despite their combined weight of 135 stones.
> 
> Every body in the school watch the quarrel and call it a win for kids 1.
> 
> After such a nasty outcome, kids 2 and brothers decided to sign a truce, but would argue rest of the school, how they actually won.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s not a Arabian history Thread and I am not interested in googling Arabian history as it’s like beating a dead horse.
> 
> if you know history so well then debunked the facts that Baybars and Saladin were not Arabs.
> 
> I will correct myself and move on. If you don’t have anything, than deal with the Historical reality and move on.


Again from my previous post..and from the mouth of Usraelis:
Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.

Now you really messed it up with your completely reversed example..forgetting the first kid of 8 stones had brothers weighting 1000 stones each (UK and France at that time 1948 till '67) and yet a bigger brother weighting 10000 stone (The US from the 60s on..).. Still the 9 stone and his two brothers managed to snatch back their candies under the nose of the heavy weights of this world..both by force and by diplomacy.. that is the naked truth..Just the blinded and sick minded can see it differently..and contradict the facts of history..



PakFactor said:


> Funny how he brings up some quotes that can’t be found online from any authentic source.
> 
> However their own Chief of Staff who lead the Egyptian Armed Forces in that 1973 War wrote in his book (till this day still banned in Egypt) after he was politically exiled they lost the war and the Third Army was trapped. I posted a declassified CIA Report that gives a neutral perspective as well, which Egypt did good in initial stages as Israelis were busy with the Syrians in the strategically more important Golan Heights once that was done they punished the Egyptians who ran for a cease fire and Israelis didn’t acknowledge it for a few days until they got the upper hand and continued on to Cairo and Damascus. lol


Go cry rivers somewhere else.. you defeatist mentality shows more on you than any Arabs (and Usraelis) who know the truth..
And stop lying about the sources ..

Here is more than you can ever think about:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/1973-arab-israeli-conflict-the-truth-once-and-for-all.315824/

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## The SC

SD 10 said:


> I just hope, Egyp buys gripen or something else. Good for them and good for us.


More Rafale..maybe Typhoon..and more Mig-35 and SU-35..later on the SU-57 too
The JF-17 block III is not in this category anyway ..it is a light fighter ..so it might still have a place in the EAF..



Genghis khan1 said:


> It’s not a Arabian history Thread and I am not interested in googling Arabian history as it’s like beating a dead horse.
> 
> if you know history so well then debunked the facts that Baybars and Saladin were not Arabs.
> 
> I will correct myself and move on. If you don’t have anything, than deal with the Historical reality and move on.


Friend you debunked nothing really..
Would you say American generals in the US army, are British, irish, Germans, Polish, Italians or anything like that?
The same applies to baybars and Salahudin.. They were both Generals of the Muslim Arab empire..

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## Genghis khan1

The SC said:


> Seems you have not heard about Mesopotamia..ever
> And comparing the prophet asws with Abu Jahl is jahl (ignorance) in it self..
> 
> 
> Again from my previous post..and from the mouth of Usraelis:
> Dr. Amnon Kabiuk in Hamshar newspaper considers that what characterized the Arabs in their goals and their war is that they are more realistic.
> 
> Now you really messed it up with your completely reversed example..forgetting the first kid of 8 stones had brothers weighting 1000 stones each (UK and France at that time 1948 till '67) and yet a bigger brother weighting 10000 stone (The US from the 60s on..).. Still the 9 stone and his two brothers managed to snatch back their candies under the nose of the heavy weights of this world..both by force and by diplomacy.. that is the naked truth..Just the blinded and sick minded can see it differently..and contradict the facts of history..
> 
> 
> Go cry rivers somewhere else.. you defeatist mentality shows more on you than any Arabs (and Usraelis) who know the truth..
> And stop lying about the sources ..


You sounds like one of the tools of Imran Hossaini. You are just making excuses and excuses will get you no where.

You are the one that brought Prophet to cover face for modern day Abu jahl. Than you switch to Mesopotamia!!

Buddy there were no 1000 and 10000 stones, these stones are the fears of Arabs. Arabs had 100,000 stones Soviet Union on it’s side. Israeli fought alone. Stop lying to yourself. Seriously I am feeling ridiculous comparing 2 side but you don’t feel a things making nonstop excuses. It’s a country 10x40 miles across, FFS. It’s doesn’t Even takes jet a min to cover this distance. 

How about you come back when Egypt or its GCC funders Grow a pair, open the Gaza blockade and help out Starving Arabs.



The SC said:


> More Rafale..maybe Typhoon..and more Mig-35 and SU-35..later on the SU-57 too
> The JF-17 block III is not in this category anyway ..it is a light fighter ..so it might still have a place in the EAF..
> 
> 
> Friend you debunked nothing really..
> Would you say American generals in the US army, are British, irish, Germans, Polish, Italians or anything like that?
> The same applies to baybars and Salahudin.. They were both Generals of the Muslim Arab empire..


Arab is an a race, an ethnicity, American isn’t an ethnicity. Your friends here was Highlight Arabia-ness @Amun that they did it and will do it again and was mocking Non Arabs. I just did a reality check. Well now you guys are switching to Islam n Muslims. Nothing new, just like when national Arabs Armies failed to free Palestinian Arabs started calling it a Muslim issue.

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## The SC

Genghis khan1 said:


> You sounds like one of the tools of Imran Hossaini. You are just making excuses and excuses will get you no where.
> 
> You are the one that brought Prophet to cover face for modern day Abu jahl. Than you switch to Mesopotamia!!
> 
> Buddy there were no 1000 and 10000 stones, these stones are the fears of Arabs. Arabs had 100,000 stones Soviet Union on it’s side. Israeli fought alone. Stop lying to yourself. Seriously I am feeling ridiculous comparing 2 side but you don’t feel a things making nonstop excuses. It’s a country 10x40 miles across, FFS. It’s doesn’t Even takes jet a min to cover this distance.
> 
> How about you come back when Egypt or its GCC funders Grow a pair, open the Gaza blockade and help out Starving Arabs.
> 
> 
> Arab is an a race, an ethnicity, American isn’t an ethnicity. Your friends here was Highlight Arabia-ness @Amun that they did it and will do it again and was mocking Non Arabs. I just did a reality check. Well now you guys are switching to Islam n Muslims. Nothing new, just like when national Arabs Armies failed to free Palestinian Arabs started calling it a Muslim issue.


Well keep covering your ignorance because you are spreading fallacies about the Arabs..and that might sooth your sick soul.. but changes nothing for the Arabs pride and self confidence in their abilities..

Go have a good read here..and also some history books about Arab empires so you won't be personifying Abu Jahl to a worst extent..

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/1973-arab-israeli-conflict-the-truth-once-and-for-all.315824/

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## ArabianEmpires&Caliphates

@The SC @Amun @Philip the Arab @sami_1

I request fellow Arab users, the very few that remain after 99.9% of us left PDF, to ignore the anti-Arab and Arab-obsessed drivel in this thread and elsewhere from largely partially Arabized trolls.

Arabs as a people and civilization are too great to continuously be dragged into such moronic discussions and irrelevant troll wars on this forum.

Our ancient pre-Islamic history (that of the Arab world, Arabs and fellow Semitic peoples) is objectively speaking the most impressive in existence. It gave rise to the oldest known civilizations on the planet and influential (influencing every later civilization basically), science, mathematics, farming, the first major population centers and cities in the world, writing, alphabet, the wheel, musical instruments, the first monotheistic (Abrahamic) religions, first known religions, poetry, literature, domestication of animals, the Arab world is home to the most impressive and most ancient archaeological and architectural wonders of the world and the list goes on.

After the Islamic conquest we Arabs created the largest (by far) and most influential empires EVER (stands to this date) created by non-Westerners (in the form of much more recent colonial empires, the British being the largest), expect for the incredibly short-lived and destructive Mongol empire, in the Muslim/non-Western world. It was under those Arab Caliphates/empires, that the height of Islamic civilization was reached and where the Islamic world was the leading player in almost every field. Arabic, the liturgic language of Islam, is the most influential language (by far) in the Muslim world too, influencing languages on all continents of the world and every single language spoken in the Muslim world to a greater or smaller degree.

To this very day, despite 3-4 centuries of Ottoman darkness and colonial exploration of much of the Arab world, we still stand strong, despite being at our weakest point. We still control a landmass the size of Russia, our lands are some of the most richest and sought after on the planet and so is our geographical location, hence the constant meddling from almost everyone else. We are still by far the largest Muslim ethnic group (second largest in the World overall) and our combined economy is in the top 5 of the world which incredible potential for future growth due to unused potential, population growth etc.

This post is not aimed at showcasing what is already known among educated people across the world (not only historians) but just to tell the few fellow Arab users that remain on PDF, not to get yourself dragged down by a few insulting loudmouths who give their own nation/s a very bad name.

It is worth mentioning that the Pyramids in Egypt alone, are older than any known civilization that emerged in all of South Asia.

Speaking about age, people etc. the first people who colonized the barren lands of South Asia (in terms of them not being inhabited by humans), many 10.000's of years ago, came from nowhere else but the modern-day Arab world.

Lastly, there is nothing called "Arab-Israeli wars", as that would require all 20 + Arab nations to have taken actively part in those wars. This was mostly the doing of 3 Arab nations (Egypt, Syria and Iraq) and in the last major war (1973), Arabs were victorious and achieved all of their goals expect for Syria (Golan Heights) and the foolishness of the Hafiz al-Assad.

If not for US protection and Israel being allowed to have nuclear weapons and the Israeli elite being survivors of the Holocaust and them fighting for their very existence (unlike Arabs), a few Arab clans and tribes in Palestine, Egypt and Syria alone, would have ransacked it. We should not forget that Jews/Israels have been dominated by Arabs military for millennia. Not withstanding that modern day Israel is ethnically an Arab state given that 20% of Israel's population is Arab and 2/3 of all Israeli Jews are Arab Jews (Jews from Arab lands who genetically are no different from Arab Muslim Yemenis, Arab Muslim Iraqis, Arab Muslim Egyptians etc.)

I strongly recommend the few remaining Arab users to leave this forum permanently if things don’t improve on this forum, as it has turned into a troll-infected and Arab-obsessed (ironically given the Arabization that most of its users have undergone) forum and the moderation is not doing their job in preventing this and whenever the few Arab users that are left, reply using a similar language to put those trolls in their place, we get banned! Why spend time on such a forum when there are plenty of vibrant and much more active Arab military forums? We are just wasting our time on a platform of this nature, I am afraid, when Pakistani and other Arab-obsessed trolls, are dominating the discourse and creating a fake/not real picture of Pakistan and Pakistanis.

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## Genghis khan1

ArabianEmpires&Caliphates said:


> @The SC @Amun @Philip the Arab @sami_1
> 
> I request fellow Arab users, the very few that remain after 99.9% of us left PDF, to ignore the anti-Arab and Arab-obsessed drivel in this thread and elsewhere from largely partially Arabized trolls.
> 
> Arabs as a people and civilization are too great to continuously be dragged into such moronic discussions and irrelevant troll wars on this forum.
> 
> Our ancient pre-Islamic history (that of the Arab world, Arabs and fellow Semitic peoples) is objectively speaking the most impressive in existence. It gave rise to the oldest known civilizations on the planet and influential (influencing every later civilization basically), science, mathematics, farming, the first major population centers and cities in the world, writing, alphabet, the wheel, musical instruments, the first monotheistic (Abrahamic) religions, first known religions, poetry, literature, domesticate of animals, the Arab world is home to the most impressive and most ancient archaeological and architectural wonders of the world and the list goes on.
> 
> After the Islamic conquest we Arabs created the largest (by far) and most influential empires EVER (stands to this date) created by non-Westerners (in the form of much more recent colonial empires, the British being the largest), expect for the incredibly short-lived and destructive Mongol empire, in the Muslim/non-Western world. It was under those Arab Caliphates/empires, that the height of Islamic civilization was reached and where the Islamic world was the leading player in almost every field. Arabic, the liturgic language of Islam, is the most influential language (by far) in the Muslim world too, influencing languages on all continents of the world and every single language spoken in the Muslim world to a greater or smaller degree.
> 
> To this very day, despite 3-4 centuries of Ottoman darkness and colonial exploration of much of the Arab world, we still stand strong, despite being at our weakest point. We still control a landmass the size of Russia, our lands are some of the most richest and sought after on the planet and so is our geographical location, hence the constant meddling from almost everyone else. We are still by far the largest Muslim ethnic group (second largest in the World overall) and our combined economy is in the top 5 of the world which incredible potential for future growth due to unused potential, population growth etc.
> 
> This post is not aimed at showcasing what is already known among educated people across the world (not only historians) but just to tell the few fellow Arab users that remain on PDF, not to get yourself dragged down by a few insulting loudmouths who give their own nation/s a very bad name.
> 
> It is worth mentioning that the Pyramids in Egypt alone, are older than any known civilization that emerged in all of South Asia.
> 
> Speaking about age, people etc. the first people who colonized the barren lands of South Asia (in terms of them not being inhabited by humans), many 10.000's of years ago, came from nowhere else but the modern-day Arab world.
> 
> Lastly, there is nothing called "Arab-Israeli wars", as that would require all 20 + Arab nations to have taken actively part in those wars. This was mostly the doing of 3 Arab nations (Egypt, Syria and Iraq) and in the last major war (1973), Arabs were victorious and achieved all of their goals expect for Syria (Golan Heights) and the foolishness of the Hafiz al-Assad.
> 
> If not for US protection and Israel being allowed to have nuclear weapons and the Israeli elite being survivors of the Holocaust and them fighting for their very existence (unlike Arabs), a few Arab clans and tribes in Palestine, Egypt and Syria alone, would have ransacked it. We should not forget that Jews/Israels have been dominated by Arabs military for millennia. Not withstanding that modern day Israel is ethnically an Arab state given that 20% of Israel's population is Arab and 2/3 of all Israeli Jews are Arab Jews (Jews from Arab lands who genetically are no different from Arab Muslim Yemenis, Arab Muslim Iraqis, Arab Muslim Egyptians etc.)
> 
> I strongly recommend the few remaining Arab users to leave this forum permanently if things don’t improve on this forum, as it has turned into a troll-infected and Arab-obsessed (ironically given the Arabization that most of its users have undergone) forum and the moderation is not doing their job in preventing this and whenever the few Arab users that are left, reply using a similar language to put those trolls in their place, we get banned! Why spend time on such a forum when there are plenty of vibrant and much more active Arab military forums? We are just wasting our time on a platform of this nature, I am afraid, when Pakistani and other Arab-obsessed trolls, are dominating the discourse and creating a fake/not real picture of Pakistan and Pakistanis.


Buddy why are you so butthurt. When you guys are getting ripped open for fake claims, you run away. It was a JF-17 thread, your Arabian brethren brought their claims of Arab victory over Israel. *Why blame PDF member when no one in the world buy your excuses.* Than they step back into Arab ethnicity, Saladin, mongol defeat. All We did was Just inform them that the stone they are standing on, for their claims aren’t even Arab. Then the move back to Prophet and masopotamia.

I mean seriously, can they just stick with Discussing the thread.

Now your are coming with another rubbish of “dark ottomans times“ and “glorious Jewish ancestry ( Squeeze in Arab). I bet Romans were also Arab in your dictionary.

You telling other Members to leave when you yourself are present here.

Buddy, previously You and your friend, came here with cooked up, cherry pick links, while claims genetic link to other ethnicities and everything glorious They did. 90% member Visiting here never gave a flying F about your claims . The 10% that Actually read, or Knew some history started ripping you apart with Little bit history search of their own. 

When you were caught distorting history, you resort to abusing others and end up getting banned.

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## StormBreaker

Genghis khan1 said:


> Buddy why are you so butthurt. When you guys are getting ripped open for fake claims, you run away. It was a JF-17 thread, your Arabian brethren brought their claims of Arab victory over Israel. *Why blame PDF member when no one in the world buy your excuses.* Than they step back into Arab ethnicity, Saladin, mongol defeat. All We did was Just inform them that the stone they are standing on, for their claims aren’t even Arab. Then the move back to Prophet and masopotamia.
> 
> I mean seriously, can they just stick with Discussing the thread.
> 
> Now your are coming with another rubbish of “dark ottomans times“ and “glorious Jewish ancestry ( Squeeze in Arab). I bet Romans were also Arab in your dictionary.
> 
> You telling other Members to leave when you yourself are present here.
> 
> Buddy, previously You and your friend, come here with cook up, cherry pick links, while claims genetic link to other ethnicities and everything glorious That did. Since 90% member Visiting here never gave a flying F about your claims. The 10% that did or Knew some history started ripping you apart with Little bit search of history.
> 
> When you were caught distorting history, you resort to abuses others and end up getting banned.


I would not blame him or you out others, simply history subject has been made to be distorted, multiple versions, What can one expect ?
Useless endless debates

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## ArabianEmpires&Caliphates

Genghis khan1 said:


> Buddy why are you so butthurt. When you guys are getting ripped open for fake claims, you run away. It was a JF-17 thread, your Arabian brethren brought their claims of Arab victory over Israel. *Why blame PDF member when no one in the world buy your excuses.* Than they step back into Arab ethnicity, Saladin, mongol defeat. All We did was Just inform them that the stone they are standing on, for their claims aren’t even Arab. Then the move back to Prophet and masopotamia.
> 
> I mean seriously, can they just stick with Discussing the thread.
> 
> Now your are coming with another rubbish of “dark ottomans times“ and “glorious Jewish ancestry ( Squeeze in Arab). I bet Romans were also Arab in your dictionary.
> 
> You telling other Members to leave when you yourself are present here.
> 
> Buddy, previously You and your friend, come here with cook up, cherry pick links, while claims genetic link to other ethnicities and everything glorious That did. Since 90% member Visiting here never gave a flying F about your claims. The 10% that did or Knew some history started ripping you apart with Little bit search of history.
> 
> When you were caught distorting history, you resort to abuses others and end up getting banned.



First of all, none of you Pakistanis or others in this thread would dare to insult Arabs in person. All I saw in this thread was inferiority ridden (ironically partially Arabized themselves) users who were insulting Arabs and writing nonsense when they can't count to 10 in Arabic and have no clue about Arab history, events in the Arab world or "Arab"-Israeli wars. I don't see any Arab users insulting Pakistanis or others here even when insulted. Since you have moderator protection it is pointless although we could use that tenfold the other way around if we were as primitive as those individuals in question and had so many complexes towards a particular group of people as some users seem to have with 500 million Arabs here on PDF.

Saladin (ra) was a Kurdified Arab paternally. His paternal ancestors were Arabs and his offspring have lived in the Arab world for 800 years and intermarried with Arabs and live in today's KSA and Jordan mainly. They go by the name Al-Ayyubi which surprise surprise, is an Arabic name.

Saladin (ra) was a member of the *Rawadiya tribe *which is an Arab tribe. He was born on Arab land (Kirkuk) as well but his mother was Kurdish speaking and much of the Rawadiya tribe (back then) intermingled with Kurds and became partially Kurdizied. Despite this, his mother tongue was Arabic. Also with all due respect, there have been literally 50 or so greater Arab generals than him.

Mongols? What have those irrelevant people to do with this thread? All they were good for in the Islamic context was to destroy Islamic civilization and from their appearance it has only gone downwards for the entire Muslim world. There is a reason why the very name (Mongol) is considered an insult in much of the world. Eventually to get their asses kicked in the Arab world after destroying only parts of the Arab world (Iraq).

2/3 of all Jewish Israelis are Arab Jews and Israelis (Jews) are a Semitic people and closely related to Arabs. That is a fact. One of the greatest ancient Jewish Kings, Herod the Great, was half Nabatean (Nabatean princess mother from modern-day KSA) and his father was an Edomite, a Semitic people, from Hijaz in KSA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Jews

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

Do you want to embarrass yourself a bit more?

Everything that I wrote in my earlier post is factually correct and well-known among educated people. I can back every single claim up with factual information and scholarly work. So no, go troll to someone else on your own level who bothers to engage in such moronic and laughable discussions.

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## Genghis khan1

ArabianEmpires&Caliphates said:


> First of all, none of you Pakistanis or others in this thread would dare to insult Arabs in person. All I saw in this thread was inferiority ridden (ironically partially Arabized themselves) users who were insulting Arabs and writing nonsense when they can't count to 10 in Arabic and have no clue about Arab history, events in the Arab world or "Arab"-Israeli wars. I don't see any Arab users insulting Pakistanis or others here even when insulted. Since you have moderator protection it is pointless although we could use that tenfold the other way around if we were as primitive as those individuals in question and had so many complexes towards a particular group of people as some users seem to have with 500 million Arabs here on PDF.
> 
> Saladin (ra) was a Kurdified Arab paternally. His paternal ancestors were Arabs and his offspring have lived in the Arab world for 800 years and intermarried with Arabs and live in today's KSA and Jordan mainly. They go by the name Al-Ayyubi which surprise surprise, is an Arabic name.
> 
> Saladin (ra) was a member of the *Rawadiya tribe *which is an Arab tribe. He was born on Arab land (Kirkuk) as well but his mother was Kurdish speaking and much of the Rawadiya tribe (back then) intermingled with Kurds and became partially Kurdizied. Despite this, his mother tongue was Arabic. Also with all due respect, there have been literally 50 or so greater Arab generals than him.
> 
> Mongols? What have those irrelevant people to do with this thread? All they were good for in the Islamic context was to destroy Islamic civilization and from their appearance it has only gone downwards for the entire Muslim world. Eventually to get their asses kicked in the Arab world after destroying only parts of the Arab world (Iraq).
> 
> 2/3 of all Jewish Israelis are Arab Jews and Israelis (Jews) are a Semitic people and closely related to Arabs. That is a fact. One of the greatest ancient Jewish Kings, Herod the Great, was half Nabatean (Nabatean princess mother from modern-day KSA) and his father was an Edomite, a Semitic people, from Hijaz in KSA.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Jews
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews
> 
> Do you want to embarrass yourself a bit more?
> 
> Everything that I wrote in my earlier post is factually correct and well-known among educated people. I can back every single claim off with factual information and scholarly work. So no, go troll to someone else on your own level who bothers to engage in such moronic and laughable discussions.


Again your Wikipedia Links, and last time you Even had your own Unverified personal links. I am not gonna waste time on them. It’s has nothing to do with JF-17 or modern day Israelis, American and Persian humiliating and ransacking Arab land every day. 

Buddy nobody is insulting Arabs here. We are pointed out historical fact. You take it as insult than it’s your problem. As far as talking Facts, infront of Arab, guess what, I did corrected them in University or hookah lounge, in a group of Arabs, and response I Got was Mix Every time, Partial agreement, silence, mother fuckin own Arab leadership mostly Saudis (idk why) or a simply walk away. I am not a history major but google is our friend. We respect Turks and Persian for whatever their historical achievement are. They admit their faults, Their ups and down, but Arabs like to lie and argue.

Last time you came down to insults Pakistanis and than you or your Other troll friend found out my ethnic Background and ancestry, Which humbled you real quick. So I was would suggest to stay out of this rubbish this time.

Unless you have anything of value to add, I am not responding anymore.



StormBreaker said:


> I would not blame him or you out others, simply history subject has been made to be distorted, multiple versions, What can one expect ?
> Useless endless debates



... And I wouldn’t blame you liking this Arabian troll post, self proclaimed master of distorted history for his own Typical Arab gratification. 
Most Pakistanis just look at big words, Islam and bunch of links and believe, it has to be true. 
Why are we even discussing this nonsense on a fighter jet thread. Answer: Arab. 
How often a Persian or Turk argue such Ethnic nonsense. Some people needs validation for their existence when they can’t merge their nationalist school learned BS with real world facts and humiliation.

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## StormBreaker

Genghis khan1 said:


> Again your Wikipedia Links, and last time you Even had your own Unverified personal links. I am not gonna waste time on them. It’s has nothing to do with JF-17 or modern day Israelis, American and Persian humiliating and ransacking Arab land every day.
> 
> Buddy nobody is insulting Arabs here. We are pointed out historical fact. You take it as insult than it’s your problem. As far as talking Facts, infront of Arab, guess what, I did corrected them in University or hookah lounge, in a group of Arabs, and response I Got was Mix Every time, Partial agreement, silence, mother fuckin own Arab leadership mostly Saudis (idk why) or a simply walk away. I am not a history major but google is our friend. We respect Turks and Persian for whatever their historical achievement are. They admit their faults, Their ups and down, but Arabs like to lie and argue.
> 
> Last time you came down to insults Pakistanis and than you or your Other troll friend found out my ethnic Background and ancestry, Which humbled you real quick. So I was would suggest to stay out of this rubbish this time.
> 
> Unless you have anything of value to add, I am not responding anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> ... And I wouldn’t blame you liking this Arabian troll post, self proclaimed master of distorted history for his own Typical Arab gratification.
> Most Pakistanis just look at big words, Islam and bunch of links and believe, it has to be true.
> Why are we even discussing this nonsense on a fighter jet thread. Answer: Arab.
> How often a Persian or Turk argue such Ethnic nonsense. Some people needs validation for their existence when they can’t merge their nationalist school learned BS with real world facts and humiliation.


You and we call them and generalize them as arabs, so of anyone is wrong, it is us...

Why not call out by nationality? Wouldn’t that be too easy ? Do you see anyone generalizing pakistan and india as subcontinent or south asian

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## Genghis khan1

StormBreaker said:


> You and we call them and generalize them as arabs, so of anyone is wrong, it is us...
> 
> Why not call out by nationality? Wouldn’t that be too easy ? Do you see anyone generalizing pakistan and india as subcontinent or south asian


You simplified the hell out of history. You understand is on a whole different level. For your ease, in his dictionary, you Al-Hindi are a like a slave conquered by Mohammad bin Qasim. We heard his nonsense before.

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## StormBreaker

Genghis khan1 said:


> You simplified the hell out of history. You understand is on a whole different level. For your ease, in his dictionary, you Al-Hindi are a like a slave conquered by Mohammad bin Qasim. We heard his nonsense before.


You probably need some sleep, I simply suggested to call him a “KSA-ian” instead of Arab and then see the response, It will be quite different.

Sometimes generally, while you are conversing with someone, You introduce a rarely used concept or word, The other party takes note of it, gets his attention, and then in the flow, uses the same thing again and again. So the point is to just try best to keep some things out until really necessary.


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## PakFactor

StormBreaker said:


> You probably need some sleep, I simply suggested to call him a “KSA-ian” instead of Arab and then see the response, It will be quite different.
> 
> Sometimes generally, while you are conversing with someone, You introduce a rarely used concept or word, The other party takes note of it, gets his attention, and then in the flow, uses the same thing again and again. So the point is to just try best to keep some things out until really necessary.



This issue is when they talk collectively they group all those countries as Arab -- as you've seen above their posts.

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## ArabianEmpires&Caliphates

Genghis khan1 said:


> Again your Wikipedia Links, and last time you Even had your own Unverified personal links. I am not gonna waste time on them. It’s has nothing to do with JF-17 or modern day Israelis, American and Persian humiliating and ransacking Arab land every day.
> 
> Buddy nobody is insulting Arabs here. We are pointed out historical fact. You take it as insult than it’s your problem. As far as talking Facts, infront of Arab, guess what, I did corrected them in University or hookah lounge, in a group of Arabs, and response I Got was Mix Every time, Partial agreement, silence, mother fuckin own Arab leadership mostly Saudis (idk why) or a simply walk away. I am not a history major but google is our friend. We respect Turks and Persian for whatever their historical achievement are. They admit their faults, Their ups and down, but Arabs like to lie and argue.
> 
> Last time you came down to insults Pakistanis and than you or your Other troll friend found out my ethnic Background and ancestry, Which humbled you real quick. So I was would suggest to stay out of this rubbish this time.
> 
> Unless you have anything of value to add, I am not responding anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> ... And I wouldn’t blame you liking this Arabian troll post, self proclaimed master of distorted history for his own Typical Arab gratification.
> Most Pakistanis just look at big words, Islam and bunch of links and believe, it has to be true.
> Why are we even discussing this nonsense on a fighter jet thread. Answer: Arab.
> How often a Persian or Turk argue such Ethnic nonsense. Some people needs validation for their existence when they can’t merge their nationalist school learned BS with real world facts and humiliation.



I am using Wikipedia links as this is the easiest way of communication in this regard as I don't bother to find 100's of scholarly works that support the obvious (what I write) just for you to not even click on them, which I can already guess in advance would have been the case.

As for "just Wikipedia", I suggest to take a look at the links/references under those claims. They are all scholarly work and moreover well-known historical facts.

"Persians" (you mean those thoroughly Arabized people with Arab blood in their veins and who the Arabs conquered completely in every way, ruled for centuries and who are now Muslims) don't rule anything in the Arab world? Arab Shias aligned to the ARABS ruling Iran (Khomeini is an Sayyid that proudly claims Arabic ancestry, wears a Black Turban showcasing it and who speaks fluent Arabic) has nothing to do with Persians, lol. Since when have Iraqi Shia Arabs or Syrian Alawites turned into Persians, lol?

Americans? Almost 4000 American soldiers were killed in Iraq, all of the US objectives failed and trillions where lost. Now reduced to a few American bases with Iraqi government blessing. Israel, other than tiny Golan Heights (due to Al-Assad regime incompetence) and some land grabbing in Palestine against defenseless stone-throwing Palestinians with the entire support of the US/West, is a great achievement since when? Equals an elephant celebrating stepping on an ant.

As for Israel, you were already told that 20% of Israelis are Arab Muslims and that 2/3 of all Israeli Jews are Arab Jews. Israel is basically an Arab state ethnically. Moreover this is a conflict between cousins (Arabs and Jews) about land. Mostly Palestinians and Israeli Jews to make it even more clear.

More unverified nonsense. "Arabs like to argue and lie". Unlike every other people on the planet who never "lie" or "argue", lol. Am I supposed to take this nonsense seriously?

What are you blabbering about? Are you not the same troll that claims Mongol ancestry? How in the world can you humble any Arab objectively speaking when your achievements don't even reach the toe of that of Arabs and our ancestors? Let alone any other possibility that might be your ancestry. No offense.

As for you other reply (not to me), more unfounded nonsense. Last time I checked the whole Aryan nonsense is a Farsi speciality (despite Arabs being closer genetically to Europeans and Europeans being our neighbors, unlike Iranians) similarly with the "We are Turkic" from the Turks, even though they have almost nothing to do (genetically) with Turkic people. Arabs on the other hand, unless challenged, never discuss such topics which every PDF user that has a history on PDF can confirm, including the moderators. Nor do Arabs care about such topics as we are not inferiority ridden people and we are well-known for being very proud people.

So as I wrote to you, waste such nonsense on a troll, not me, and quite frankly, if you don't have anything useful to write on this topic and section of the forum (Arab), I suggest to find another address to troll in/waste space in with nonsense and take your troll friends with you. I can speak for Arab users here and on their behalf, they are not interested in such nonsense.

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## gangsta_rap



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## Genghis khan1

ArabianEmpires&Caliphates said:


> I am using Wikipedia links as this is the easiest way of communication in this regard as I don't bother to find 100's of scholarly works that support the obvious (what I write) just for you to not even click on them, which I can already guess in advance would have been the case.
> 
> As for "just Wikipedia", I suggest to take a look at the links/references under those claims. They are all scholarly work and moreover well-known historical facts.
> 
> "Persians" (you mean those thoroughly Arabized people with Arab blood in their veins and who the Arabs conquered completely in every way, ruled for centuries and who are now Muslims) don't rule anything in the Arab world? Arab Shias aligned to the ARABS ruling Iran (Khomeini is an Sayyid that proudly claims Arabic ancestry, wears a Black Turban showcasing it and who speaks fluent Arabic) has nothing to do with Persians, lol. Since when have Iraqi Shia Arabs or Syrian Alawites turned into Persians, lol?
> 
> Americans? Almost 4000 American soldiers were killed in Iraq, all of the US objectives failed and trillions where lost. Now reduced to a few American bases with Iraqi government blessing. Israel, other than tiny Golan Heights (due to Al-Assad regime incompetence) and some land grabbing in Palestine against defenseless stone-throwing Palestinians with the entire support of the US/West, is a great achievement since when? Equals an elephant celebrating stepping on an ant.
> 
> As for Israel, you were already told that 20% of Israelis are Arab Muslims and that 2/3 of all Israeli Jews are Arab Jews. Israel is basically an Arab state ethnically. Moreover this is a conflict between cousins (Arabs and Jews) about land. Mostly Palestinians and Israeli Jews to make it even more clear.
> 
> More unverified nonsense. "Arabs like to argue and lie". Unlike every other people on the planet who never "lie" or "argue", lol. Am I supposed to take this nonsense seriously?
> 
> What are you blabbering about? Are you not the same troll that claims Mongol ancestry? How in the world can you humble any Arab objectively speaking when your achievements don't even reach the toe of that of Arabs and our ancestors? Let alone any other possibility that might be your ancestry. No offense.
> 
> As for you other reply (not to me), more unfounded nonsense. Last time I checked the whole Aryan nonsense is a Farsi speciality (despite Arabs being closer genetically to Europeans and Europeans being our neighbors, unlike Iranians) similarly with the "We are Turkic" from the Turks, even though they have almost nothing to do (genetically) with Turkic people. Arabs on the other hand, unless challenged, never discuss such topics which every PDF user that has a history on PDF can confirm, including the moderators. Nor do Arabs care about such topics as we are not inferiority ridden people and we are well-known for being very proud people.
> 
> So as I wrote to you, waste such nonsense on a troll, not me, and quite frankly, if you don't have anything useful to write on this topic and section of the forum (Arab), I suggest to find another address to troll in/waste space in with nonsense and take your troll friends with you. I can speak for Arab users here and on their behalf, they are not interested in such nonsense.


Idk man, you are just shooting random arrows in every direction hoping to hit something.

Let us all agree:
* Israel lost all battles. Palestine Liberated and total Arab victory.
* Iraq War. Total Arabian domination. US went Bankrupt.
* ME was never bend over again and again by Mongols, Turk-o-mongols (Timur Dynasties), Ottomans and before, their major population centers by Romans and Persians.

* KSA is the center of innovation and LHC is located in Jeddah. There are no expats in ME any more. Arab labor force are fully skilled and hardworking, 5 gen Jets are locally produced by Arab engineers.

* There is no Al-Bakistani General in KSA leading IMCTC. I think he is Arabized Now cuz he lives in KSA, his last name is Sharif and history can be distorted to say Arab Gen help Pakistan fight WoT.

* Arabs are white European, generics tells us, 7000 years ago even Donald Trump and Queen of England were also Arab.

Did I miss anything, buddy? Can we now return to actual thread?

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## Maxpane

@waz @The Eagle just clean this thread . again there a war going on among arab and ajam

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## Clutch

Why has this thread degenerated interested a ethic racial debate???... It's about a fighter jet not about race...

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## The SC

ArabianEmpires&Caliphates said:


> Arab Americans are the most influential (by far) Muslim community in the US. As for your hallucinations and continued lies, due to your well-known Arab obsession, despite being partially Arabized yourself, is probably the same type of delusion/illusion that makes you think that you are a Mongol.
> 
> You are literally braindead. Most mosques in the US are sponsored by Arabs, there are literally 100.000's of them in the US, Arabic learning centers can be found in every major US city, Arabic restaurants, shops, halal stores, business etc. All proudly displaying their heritage and identity.
> 
> More of your habitual lies exposed yet again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, how old is this Arab-obsessed and Arabized troll again?
> 
> This is a *list of Arab Americans*. It includes prominent Arab American individuals from various fields, such as business, science, entertainment, sports and fine arts.
> 
> 
> Elias J. Corey, organic chemistry professor at Harvard University, winner of the 1990 Nobel Prize in Chemistry[1](Lebanese parents)
> Ahmed Zewail, Egyptian-American scientist, known as the "father of femtochemistry", winner of the 1999 Nobel Prize in Chemistry
> Michael E. DeBakey, Lebanese-American cardiovascular surgeon and researcher,[2] 1963 Lasker Award laureate
> Omar M. Yaghi, Palestinian-American reticular chemistry pioneer; winner of the 2018 Wolf Prize in Chemistry
> Mostafa El-Sayed, Egyptian-American US National Medal of Science laureate; nanoscience researcher; known for the spectroscopy rule named after him, the El-Sayed rule
> Farouk El-Baz Egyptian-American space scientist who worked with NASA to assist in the planning of scientific exploration of the Moon
> Huda Zoghbi, Lebanese-American physician and medical researcher who discovered the genetic cause of the Rett syndrome
> Huda Akil, Syrian-American neuroscientist and medical researcher
> Yasmine Belkaid, Algerian-American immunologist, professor and a senior investigator at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases
> Mounir Laroussi, Tunisian-American plasma physicist, pioneer of plasma medicine
> Hunein Maassab, Syrian-American professor of epidemiology and the inventor of the live attenuated influenza vaccine
> Joanne Chory, plant biologist and geneticist (Lebanese)
> Anthony Atala, Director of the Wake Forest Institute for Regenerative Medicine (Lebanese)
> Noureddine Melikechi, Algerian-American Atomic, Molecular, and Optical Physicist, member of the Mars Science Laboratory
> Michel T. Halbouty, Lebanese-American geologist and geophysicist; pioneer in oil field research
> Adah al-Mutairi (Saudi Arabian), inventor and scholar in nanotechnology and nanomedicine
> M. Amin Arnaout, Lebanese-American nephrologist and biologist
> Essam Heggy, Egyptian-American Planetary scientist
> Shadia Habbal, Syrian-American astronomer and physicist specialized in Space physics
> 
> Mohamed Atalla, engineer, inventor of MOSFET (metal-oxide-semiconductor field-effect transistor), pioneer in silicon semiconductors and security systems, founder of Atalla Corporation[3]
> Charles Elachi, Lebanese-American professor of electrical engineering and planetary science at Caltech and the former director of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> Fawwaz T. Ulaby Syrian-American professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, former Vice President of Research for the University of Michigan; first Arab-American winner of the IEEE Edison Medal
> Taher ElGamal, Egyptian-American cryptographer, inventor of the ElGamal discrete log cryptosystem and the ElGamal signature scheme
> Ali H. Nayfeh, Palestinian-American mechanical engineer, the 2014 recipient of Benjamin Franklin Medal in mechanical engineering
> Dina Katabi, Syrian-American Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at MIT and the director of the MIT Wireless Center.
> Abbas El Gamal, Egyptian-American electrical engineer, educator and entrepreneur, the recipient of the 2012 Claude E. Shannon Award
> Oussama Khatib, roboticist and a professor of computer science
> Elias Zerhouni, former director of the National Institutes of Health (Algerian)
> Hassan Kamel Al-Sabbah, Lebanese-American technology innovator.[4][5] He received 43 patents covering his work. Among the patents were reported innovations in television transmission.
> Mohammad S. Obaidat (Jordanian), computer science/engineering academic and scholar
> Charbel Farhat, Vivian Church Hoff Professor of Aircraft Structures; Director of the Army High Performance Computing Research Center; Chair of the Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Stanford University (Lebanese)
> Hany Farid, Professor of computer science at Dartmouth College, pioneer in Digital forensics (Egyptian)
> Ahmed Tewfik, Egyptian-American electrical engineer, Professor and college administrator
> Munther A. Dahleh, Professor and Director at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Palestinian)
> 
> Ismail al-Faruqi, philosopher, professor
> Fouad Ajami, Professor of International Relations
> Saddeka Arebi, professor of anthropology at UC Berkeley
> Mohammed Adam El-Sheikh, executive director of the Fiqh Council of North America[6] (Sudanese)
> Samih Farsoun, sociology professor at the American University[7]
> Philip Khuri Hitti, historian of Arab culture and history (Lebanese)
> Philip S. Khoury, Ford International Professor of History and Associate Provost at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Lebanese)
> Laura Nader, cultural anthropologist
> Edward Said, Palestinian-American literary theorist and former professor at Columbia University
> Ahmed Ismail Samatar, writer, professor and former dean of the Institute for Global Citizenship at Macalester College; Somali ancestry
> Nada Shabout, Professor of Art History at University of North Texas
> Naseer Aruri, Chancellor Professor of Political Science at University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth
> Nadia Abu El Haj, Author & Professor of Anthropology at Barnard College and subject of a major tenure controversy case at Columbia University
> Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, former Director of Graduate Studies at Northwestern University, father of Lila Abu-Lughod
> Lila Abu-Lughod, professor of Anthropology and Women's and Gender Studies at Columbia University
> Leila Farsakh, Professor of Political Science at the University of Massachusetts, Boston
> Samih Farsoun, Professor of sociology at American University and editor of Arab Studies Quarterly
> Nadia Hijab, Journalist with _Middle East Magazine_ and Senior Fellow at the Institute for Palestine Studies
> Rashid Khalidi, Edward Said Professor of Modern Arab Studies at Columbia University
> Joseph Massad, Professor at Columbia University known for his work on nationalism and sexuality in the Arab world
> Hisham Sharabi Professor Emeritus of History and Umar al-Mukhtar Chair of Arab Culture at Georgetown University
> Rosemarie Said Zahlan, historian, journalist & author, sister of Edward Said
> Steven Salaita, former Professor of English at Virginia Tech, winner of Myers Outstanding Book Award for the Study of Human Rights 2007
> Majid Khadduri, academic and founder of the Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies Middle East Studies program
> Thomas L. Saaty, Assyrian-Iraqi University Professor at the University of Pittsburgh
> Nada Shabout, art historian and Assistant Professor at the University of North Texas[8][9][10][11][12][13][14]
> Ella Shohat, professor, author and activist
> Saadi Simawe, translator, novelist and teacher
> Donny George Youkhanna, Iraqi archaeologist, anthropologist, author, curator, and scholar, and a visiting professor at Stony Brook University in New York, internationally known as "the man who saved the Iraqi National Museum."
> Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad, teaches religion, science, and freedom at the University of Maryland, College Park; directs the Minaret of Freedom Institute[15][16]
> Muhsin Mahdi, Iraqi-American Islamologist and Arabist.
> Talal Asad, anthropologist at the CUNY Graduate Center.
> 
> Mitch Daniels, President of Purdue University (Syrian)
> Donna Shalala, President of the University of Miami (Lebanese)
> Joseph E. Aoun, president of Northeastern University (Lebanese)
> Robert Khayat, chancellor of the University of Mississippi (Lebanese)
> 
> Mohamed A. El-Erian, CEO and co-CIO of PIMCO (Egyptian)
> Alec Gores, founder of Gores Group; on the _Forbes_ list of billionaires (Palestinian-born of Lebanese descent)
> Tom Gores, founder and CEO of Platinum Equity; on the _Forbes_ list of billionaires (Palestinian-born of Lebanese descent)
> Sam Gores, founder of talent agency Paradigm Agency; on the _Forbes_ list of billionaires[17] (Palestinian-born of Lebanese descent)
> Najeeb Halaby, former head of Federal Aviation Administration and CEO of Pan-American Airlines, and father of Queen Noor of Jordan (Syrian father)[18]
> Ray R. Irani, Chairman and CEO of Occidental Petroleum (Palestinian)
> Joseph Jacobs, founder of Jacobs Engineering, one of the engineering firms in the US (Lebanese)
> Steve Jobs, head of Apple, (Syrian biological father)[19][20]
> Mario Kassar, formerly headed Carolco Pictures[21] (Lebanese)
> John J. Mack, CEO of investment bank Morgan Stanley (Lebanese parents)[22]
> Maloof family, Lebanese family who owns numerous business properties in the Western United States, majority owners of the Sacramento Kings and the Palms Casino Hotel in Paradise, Nevada
> Sam Maloof (Lebanese parents)
> Sam Moore, founder and president of Thomas Nelson Publishers, the largest worldwide distributor of the Bible
> Manuel Moroun, owner of CenTra, Inc., the holding company which controls the Ambassador Bridge and Michigan Central Depot
> Jacques Nasser, former president and CEO of Ford Motor Company (Lebanese)
> Musse Olol, Chairman of the Somali American Council of Oregon (SACOO), Somali ancestry
> Paul Orfalea, nicknamed "Kinko", entrepreneur, founder the copy-chain Kinko's (parents of Lebanese descent)
> Moose Scheib, founder and CEO of Loanmod.com; inventor of the modern day loan modification
> Farouk Shami, founder of Farouk systems, a Houston-based company that manufactures hair care and spa products like CHI hair Irons (Palestinian)
> Joe Sitt, real estate developer and founder of Thor Equities (Syrian grandparents)
> John Zogby (Lebanese), founder and current President/CEO of Zogby International
> Sam Yagan (born 1977), American entrepreneur and business executive, co-founder of SparkNotes, eDonkey, OkCupid, and Techstars Chicago, also CEO of Match Group, including Tinder.
> Rana el Kaliouby (1978–present), Egyptian-born American computer scientist, CEO of Affectiva, Researcher at MIT Media Lab, contributor to facial expression recognition research and technology development
> Huda Kattan, CEO of Huda Beauty
> Shakir al Khafaji, businessman
> Madeleine A. Pickens, business executive
> Magid Abraham, market research expert and businessman
> Nahim Abraham, businessman, philanthropist
> Tom Abraham, businessman, philanthropist
> Paul Orfalea, founder of Kinko's[23]
> Richard E. Rainwater, investor and fund manager
> Robert Khuzami, former director of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission
> Salem Abraham, businessman
> Thomas J. Barrack, Jr., businessman and founder of Colony Capital
> Tony Fadell, product development manager at Apple Inc., co-inventor of iPod and iPhone
> 
> Sam Esmail, screenwriter, director and producer; creator of the television series Mr. Robot (Egyptian)
> 
> Callie Khouri, Academy Award-winning screenwriter (Lebanese father)
> William Peter Blatty, Academy Award-winning screenwriter and writer (Lebanese)
> Nessa Diab, Radio and TV personality and television host (Egyptian parents)
> Sanaa Hamri, music video and movie director; her films include the _Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants 2_ (Moroccan)
> Moustapha Akkad, Syrian-American film producer and director
> Casey Kasem, radio personality and voice actor, co-founder of American Top 40 franchise,[24] (Lebanese Druze descent)
> George Noory, radio broadcaster of late-night paranormal-themed radio talk show _Coast to Coast AM_, Lebanese[25]
> Mario Kassar, film producer, founder of Carolco Pictures, (Lebanese descent)
> Tom Shadyac, director, screenwriter and producer, (Lebanese descent)
> Tony Thomas, producer, (Lebanese descent)
> Jehane Noujaim, documentary film director, (Egyptian)[26]
> Kerri Kasem, radio personality, (Lebanese descent)
> Dan Jbara, television and film producer, (Lebanese father)
> Diane Rehm, host and executive producer of The Diane Rehm Show on National Public Radio, (Syrian-Lebanese descent)
> Elie Samaha, film producer, (Lebanese)
> Emile Kuri, Academy Award-winning art director, (Lebanese descent)
> Zaida Ben-Yusuf, portrait photographer (Algerian)
> Rima Fakih, Miss USA 2010, (Lebanese)
> Remi Kanazi, performance poet, Palestinian descent[27]
> Abdisalam Aato, film director, producer, entrepreneur, and media consultant (Somali)
> Mia Khalifa, pornographic artist (Lebanese)
> Yousef Abu-Taleb, actor, _lonelygirl15_; film producer (Jordanian)
> James Sayess, actor NCIS:LA, _Barry (TV series)_ (Palestinian heritage)
> Adam Saleh, YouTuber and singer (Yemeni)
> Cherien Dabis, film director (Palestinian)
> Tareq Salahi, television personality (Palestinian father)
> Yousef Erakat, YouTuber and actor (Palestinian)
> 
> Yasmine Bleeth, actress, her mother was Algerian.
> Gabbie Hanna, Comedian, Actress, YouTube Personality, Singer. Lebanese Descent
> Tony Shalhoub, three-time Emmy Award-winning television actor on _Monk_, Lebanese[28]
> F. Murray Abraham, Academy Award-winning actor for his role in _Amadeus_, father was an Assyrian from Syria
> Danny Thomas, Emmy Award-winning actor, founder of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital; father of Marlo Thomas (Lebanese parents)[29]
> Marlo Thomas, Golden Globe and Emmy Award-winning actress, (father of Lebanese descent)
> Rami Malek, Emmy Award and Academy Award - winning actor, (Egyptian descent)
> Vic Tayback, two-time Golden Globe-winning actor, (Syrian parents)
> Kristy McNichol, two-time Emmy Award-winning actress,[30] maternal grandfather was of Lebanese descent
> Tige Andrews, Emmy-nominated actor, Syrian-American
> Michael Ansara, actor (Lebanese)
> George Nader, American film and television actor.
> Jenna Dewan, film/TV actress (_Step Up_); paternal grandfather was of Lebanese descent[31]
> Shannon Elizabeth, film actress (_American Pie_, _Scary Movie_),[32] (father is of Lebanese and Syrian ancestry)
> Khrystyne Haje, actress on _Head of the Class_, Lebanese descent
> Teri Hatcher, actress, maternal grandfather was of Syrian ancestry
> Salma Hayek, Mexican actress (paternal grandfather was Lebanese)
> Rowan Blanchard, actress (paternal grandfather was Syrian)
> Anissa Jones, actress, _Family Affair_ (maternal Lebanese grandparents)
> Jamie Farr, character actor, Lebanese[33]
> Catherine Keener, actress, Lebanese ancestry on mother's side
> Wendie Malick, actress, Egyptian paternal grandfather
> Alanna Masterson, actress, half Lebanese
> Wentworth Miller, actor on _Prison Break_, Lebanese-Syrian from maternal great-grandmother[34]
> Najee Mondalek, actor/playwright, Lebanese descent
> Kathy Najimy, actress, Lebanese descent[35]
> Gregory Jbara, television and film actor
> Alia Shawkat, actress on _Arrested Development_, Iraqi father
> James Stacy, actor, father is of Lebanese descent
> Paola Turbay, actress, father is of Lebanese descent
> Vince Vaughn, actor (paternal grandmother was of Lebanese descent)
> Amy Yasbeck, actress, father was of Lebanese ancestry
> Sammy Sheik, actor, Egyptians parents
> Omar Metwally, actor, Egyptian father
> Waleed Zuaiter, actor; Palestinian parents
> Mo Gallini, actor; Lebanese parents
> Michael Nouri, actor; Iraqi father
> Haaz Sleiman, Lebanese-American television and film actor
> Emeraude Toubia, actress (Lebanese father)
> Edy Ganem, actress (Lebanese descent)
> Nadia Dajani, actress (Palestinian father)
> Rose Abdoo, comedian, actress (Lebanese)
> 
> Jerry Seinfeld, stand-up comedian, actor and writer,(Hungarian father and Syrian Mother)
> Dean Obeidallah, stand-up comedian, writer, (Palestinian father)
> Ahmed Ahmed, actor and comedian, (Egyptian)
> Mohammed Amer, comedian, writer, actor; _Rolling Stone_, _Al Barnameg_, _Allah Made Me Funny_ (Palestinian parents, born in Kuwait),
> Remy Munasifi, comedian also known as GoRemy (Iraqi father/Lebanese mother)
> Ronnie Khalil, stand-up comedian (Egyptian)
> Aron Kader, stand-up comedian, (Palestinian father)
> Maysoon Zayid, actress and comedian (Palestinian)
> Ray Hanania, journalist and stand-up comedian (Palestinian)
> Kassem G, comedian, actor, and YouTuber (Jordanian)
> Anwar Jibawi, YouTuber and comedian (Palestinian)
> 
> Joseph Abboud, menswear fashion designer and author[36] (Lebanese descent)
> Reem Acra, Lebanese fashion designer
> Norma Kamali, fashion designer (Lebanese descent)
> Rami Kashou, fashion designer ( Palestinian descent)
> 
> Gigi Hadid, supermodel and TV personality, (Palestinian father)
> Bella Hadid, supermodel and TV personality, (Palestinian father)
> Anwar Hadid, fashion model and TV personality, (Palestinian father)
> Iman, fashion model and actress, (Somali ancestry)
> Touriya Haoud, fashion model and actress, (Moroccan father)
> Jawahir Ahmed, fashion model, (Somali-American)
> Wafah Dufour, fashion model and singer (Saudi Arabian father)
> Jaclyn Stapp, beauty queen and fashion model (Jordanian)
> Amy Fadhli, fitness model, actress and winner of the Fitness America National Champion 1996, (Iraqi father)
> Halima Aden, fashion model, (Somali-American)
> 
> Jack Barakat All Time Low guitarist/songwriter (Lebanese parents)
> Paul Anka legendary singer/songwriter (Syrian Lebanese)
> Frank Zappa, musician, part Lebanese father[37] (Part Lebanese)
> Shakira, singer, songwriter, dancer, record producer, choreographer, and model (paternal grandparents emigrated from Lebanon to New York City)
> DJ Khaled (Palestinian), hip-hop DJ, rapper, music producer
> RedOne producer, songwriter, music executive (Moroccan, Swedish)
> Tiffany, born Tiffany Renee Darwish, singer, father is of Lebanese descent
> Tiny Tim (born Herbert Khaury), musician, Lebanese father[38]
> French Montana, New York rapper (Moroccan)
> Paul Jabara, actor, singer, songwriter, Lebanese ancestry
> Dick Dale, surf rock guitarist, father was of Lebanese descent[39]
> Andrew Bazzi, singer-songwriter, Lebanese-American
> Soraya, singer/songwriter, mother is part Lebanese
> G.E. Smith, lead guitarist in the band Hall & Oates; musical director of Saturday Night Live
> David Yazbek, songwriter and musician, half Lebanese
> Raef Haggag singer (Egyptian)
> Stephan Said, singer, musician, writer and activist, Iraqi descent
> Kareem Salama, country singer-songwriter and musician, Egyptian-American
> Alissa Musto, singer/pianist, of partial Arab descent
> Kurtis Mantronik, born Kurtis el Khaleel, remixer and producer, founding member of 1980s old school hip hop group Mantronix, Syrian father
> Malek Jandali, composer and pianist (Syrian-American)
> Sammy Hagar, songwriter, singer, musician, guitarist, Lebanese descent
> Ferras, Los Angeles-based singer-songwriter (Jordanian)
> Fredwreck hip hop producer (Palestinian)
> Mohammed Fairouz, musician, composer (Arab)
> Emilio Estefan, Cuban-born, manager and producer of wife Gloria Estefan, Lebanese ancestry
> Ayad Al Adhamy, synthesizer player and multi-instrumentalist musician, born in Bahrain
> Ferras Alqaisi, singer-songwriter, Jordanian-American
> Jeff Becerra, death metal musician, Arab Mexican origin
> Ron Affif, jazz guitarist and musician
> Paula Abdul, singer, musician, writer, actress, and television personality of partial Arab descent (Syrian-American), Syrian Jewish father
> Queen Naija, singer and songwriter, Yemeni, Italian, and African American ancestry
> 
> Khalil Gibran, writer, poet, and member of the New York Pen League; the third-best-selling poet of all time (Lebanese)
> William Peter Blatty, American writer best known for his 1971 horror novel _The Exorcist_ (Lebanese)
> Laila Lalami, Pulitzer Prize-nominated novelist, journalist, essayist, and professor (Moroccan)
> Mikhail Naimy, Nobel Prize-nominated author; member of the New York Pen League; well-known works include _The Book of Mirdad_ and a biography of Khalil Gibran
> Edward Said, literary theorist, thinker, and the founder of the academic field of postcolonial studies (Palestinian)
> Ameen Rihani, "father of Arab American literature," member of the New York Pen League and author of _The Book of Khalid,_ the first Arab American novel in English; also an ambassador
> Mona Simpson, author of _Anywhere but Here_ (Syrian father)
> Stephen Adly Guirgis, Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright (Egyptian father)
> Elmaz Abinader, poet, playwright, memoirist, writer (Lebanese)
> Diana Abu-Jaber, novelist and professor, author of _Arabian Jazz_ and _Crescent_ (Jordanian)
> Elia Abu Madi, poet, publisher and member of the New York Pen League (Lebanese)
> Etel Adnan, poet, essayist, and visual artist (Syrian father)
> Catherine Filloux, French-Algerian-American playwright
> Suheir Hammad, poet, playwright, artist, Tony Award winner, 2003 (Russel Simmons Presents Def Poetry Jam on Broadway)
> Samuel John Hazo, State Poet of Pennsylvania
> Lawrence Joseph, poet
> Lisa Suhair Majaj, poet and literary scholar
> Jack Marshall, poet and author (Iraqi father/Syrian mother)
> Khaled Mattawa, poet, recipient of an Academy of American Poets award
> Claire Messud, author, Algerian
> Naomi Shihab Nye, poet
> Abraham Rihbany, writer on politics and religion
> Steven Salaita, expert on comparative literature and post-colonialism, writer, activist (Palestinian/Jordanian)
> 
> Helen Thomas reporter, columnist, and White House correspondent (Lebanese descent)
> Hala Gorani journalist and anchor of CNN's International Desk; Levantine Cultural Center (Syrian)
> Anthony Shadid, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, foreign correspondent (Lebanese)
> Hoda Kotb broadcast journalist and TV host on _Dateline NBC_ and the _Today Show_ (Egyptian)
> Jim Avila, correspondent for ABC News "20/20", half Lebanese
> Jamal Dajani, television producer and Middle East analyst, Palestinian
> Paula Faris, television correspondent and personality, half Lebanese[40]
> Ray Hanania, award-winning journalist; Managing Editor of _The Arab Daily News_; President and CEO of Urban Strategies Group media and political consultants
> Diane Rehm, American public radio talk show host
> Dena Takruri journalist, on-air presenter, and producer (Palestinian)
> Fawaz Gerges, ABC analyst and regular guest on "Oprah's Anti-war series" (Lebanese)
> Yasmeen Sami Alamiri, journalist, first member of the White House foreign press pool, (Iraqi)
> Susan Chira, journalist, former _New York Times_ editor, foreign correspondent (Syrian)
> Lorraine Ali, reporter, editor, culture writer and music critic for _Newsweek_ (Iraqi)
> Susie Gharib, co-anchor of the _Nightly Business Report_
> Walid Phares, Fox News correspondent, Middle Eastern policy advisor to the 2012 Mitt Romney presidential campaign and the 2016 Donald Trump presidential campaign (Lebanese)
> Paul Ajlouny, founder of the Palestinian newspaper _Al-Fajr_
> Daoud Kuttab, award-winning journalist; Ferris Professor of Journalism at Princeton University (Palestinian)
> Nasser Weddady activist, Director of Civil Rights Outreach at American Islamic Congress (Mauritanian)
> Mona Eltahawy, freelance journalist. (Egyptian)
> Ayman Mohyeldin, journalist for NBC News (Egyptian)
> Serena Shim, journalist for Press TV (Lebanese)
> 
> John Abizaid, Lebanese[41]
> Ahmed Qusai al-Taayie, specialist in the United States Army who was kidnapped by insurgents in Baghdad, Iraq, on October 23, 2006
> Florent Groberg, mother of Algerian descent
> James Jabara, Lebanese
> George Joulwan, Lebanese
> Peter Mansoor, Palestinian Arab
> Michael A. Monsoor, first Arab American Medal of Honor awardee
> Ray Hanania, Vietnam Era Military Service, U.S. Air Force
> 
> James Abdnor, U.S. Senator (R-South Dakota) (1981–1987)
> John Abizaid, retired general (Lebanese)
> James Abourezk, U.S. Senator (D-South Dakota) (1973–1979) (Lebanese ancestry)[42]
> Spencer Abraham, U.S. Secretary of Energy (2001–2005) and U.S. Senator (R-Mich.) Secretary of Energy under Bush (1995–2001) (Lebanese ancestry)
> Justin Amash, U.S. Representative (R-Michigan) (2011–), Palestinian and Syrian descent
> Victor G. Atiyeh, Governor of Oregon (R) (1979–1987) (Syrian)
> John Baldacci, Governor of Maine (D) (2003–2011) (Lebanese mother)
> Rosemary Barkett, U.S. Circuit Judge and the first woman Supreme Court Justice and Chief Justice for the state of Florida (Syrian)
> Charles Boustany,[43] U.S. Representative from Louisiana; cousin of Victoria Reggie Kennedy[44] (Lebanese)
> Pat Danner, U.S. Congresswoman (D-Mo.) (1993–2001)
> Brigitte Gabriel, pro-Israel activist and founder of the American Congress For Truth (immigrated from Lebanon)
> Philip Charles Habib, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs and Special Envoy to Ronald Reagan (Lebanese)
> Lisa Halaby (a.k.a. Queen Noor), Queen-consort of Jordan and wife of King Hussein of Jordan (father is of Syrian descent)
> Darrell Issa, U.S. Congressman (R-California) (2001–) (Lebanese father)
> Joe Jamail, Renown American trial lawyer and billionaire, also known as the "King of Torts" (Lebanese)
> James Jabara, colonel and Korean War flying ace (Lebanese)
> Chris John, U.S. Congressman (D-Louisiana) (1997–2005) (Lebanese ancestry)
> George Joulwan, retired general, former NATO commander-in-chief (Lebanese)
> George Kasem, U.S. Congressman (D-California) (1959-1961)[45]
> Abraham Kazen, U.S. Congressman (D-Texas) (1967–1985) (Lebanese ancestry)
> Jill Kelley, global advocate and American socialite[46] (Lebanese)
> Victoria Reggie Kennedy, attorney and widow of late Senator Ted Kennedy (Lebanese)
> Muna Khalif, fashion designer and MP in the Federal Parliament of Somalia (Somali)
> Johnny Khamis, Councilmember from San Jose (Lebanese)
> Ray LaHood, U.S. Congressman (R-Illinois) (1995–2009), U.S. Secretary of Transportation (2009–2013) (Lebanese and Jordanian ancestry)
> Darin LaHood, U.S. Congressman (R-Illinois) (2015–), son of Ray Lahood
> George J. Mitchell, U.S. Senator (D-Maine) (1980–1995) United States of America special envoy to the Middle East under the Obama administration, U.S. senator from Maine, Senate Majority Leader (Lebanese mother)
> Mohamed Abdullahi Mohamed, President and former prime minister of Somalia (Somali descent)
> Ralph Nader, politician and consumer advocate, author, lecturer, and attorney, candidate for US Presidency
> Jimmy Naifeh, Speaker of the Tennessee House of Representatives (D) (Lebanese ancestry)
> Mary Rose Oakar, U.S. Congresswoman (D-Ohio) (1977–1993)
> Abdisalam Omer, Foreign Minister of Somalia (Somali descent)
> Ilhan Omar U.S. Congresswoman (D-Minnesota) she is one of the first two Muslim women elected to the United States Congress (Somali descent)
> Jeanine Pirro, former Westchester County District Attorney and New York Republican attorney general candidate (Lebanese parents)
> Dina Powell, current U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategy (Egyptian)
> Edward Rafeedie, U.S. District Judge for the Central District of California (Palestinian)
> Nick Rahall, U.S. Congressman (D-West Virginia) (1977–2015) (Lebanese ancestry)
> Selwa Roosevelt (Lebanese), former Chief of Protocol of the United States and wife of the late Archibald Bulloch Roosevelt, Jr., grandson of President Theodore Roosevelt
> Zainab Salbi, co-founder and president of Women for Women International (Iraqi)
> Donna Shalala, U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services (1993–2001) (Lebanese parents)
> Chris Sununu, Governor of New Hampshire (R) (2017–), son of Governor John H. Sununu
> John E. Sununu, U.S. Senator (R-New Hampshire) (2003–2009) (father is of Lebanese and Palestinian ancestry)
> John H. Sununu, Governor of New Hampshire (R) (1983–1989) and Chief of Staff to George H.W. Bush (Lebanese and Palestinian ancestry)
> Rashida Tlaib, U.S. Congresswoman (D-Michigan)(2016-) (Palestinian parents)
> James Zogby (Lebanese), founder and president of the Arab American Institute
> Hady Amr diplomat, founding director of Brookings Doha Center (Lebanese father)
> 
> Alaa Abdelnaby, played for Duke and five years in the NBA (Egyptian descent)
> Rony Seikaly, former NBA player, now DJ (Lebanese descent)
> Abdel Nader, player for the Oklahoma City Thunder of the National Basketball Association (Egyptian descent).
> Salah Mejri, Tunisian professional basketball for the Dallas Mavericks of the National Basketball Association.
> Justin Abdelkader, ice hockey forward playing in NHL
> Brandon Saad, NHL player (Syrian)
> Patrick Maroon, ice hockey player for the Edmonton Oilers in the NHL (Lebanese)
> Oday Aboushi, NFL player (Palestinian descent)
> Doug Flutie, NFL player (Lebanese father)
> Drew Haddad, NFL player (Jordanian)
> Gibran Hamdan, NFL QB (Palestinian and Pakistani descent)
> Bill George, NFL player and Hall of Fame.
> Jeff George, NFL quarterback (Lebanese descent)
> Rich Kotite, retired NFL tight end; NFL Head coach for the Philadelphia Eagles and New York Jets
> Joe Robbie, former owner and founder of the NFL's Miami Dolphins
> Rocco Baldelli professional baseball player (Syrian)
> John Jaha, baseball player, of the MLB
> Sam Khalifa, MLB baseball player
> Joe Lahoud, MLB player for Boston an California (Lebanese descent)
> Damien Sandow, WWE wrestler (Lebanese)
> Sabu ECW wrestler (Lebanese mother)
> Skandor Akbar former professional wrestler (Lebanese)
> Ed Farhat Lebanese-American professional wrestler best known by his ring name The Sheik
> Adnan Al-Kaissie former professional wrestler and manager (Iraqi)
> Armando Estrada professional wrestler and manager ( Palestinian)
> Mojo Rawley professional wrestler currently signed to WWE ( Palestinian and Syrian)
> Dina Al-Sabah, professional figure competitor (Kuwaiti descent)
> Sarah Attar track and field athlete (Saudi Arabian father)
> Isra Girgrah, boxer
> Jim Harrick, UCLA coach
> Omar Hassan, pro skateboarder[47]
> Ahmed Kaddour professional boxer, from NBC show _The Contender_ (Lebanese)
> Hocine Khalfi, professional boxer, Algerian-American
> Khalid Khannouchi, athlete marathon runner (Moroccan)
> Amir Khillah, mixed martial artist and _The Ultimate Fighter_ contestant (Egyptian)
> Gavin Maloof, businessman and owner of the Sacramento Kings
> George Maloof, Sr. businessman and former owner of the NBA's Houston Rockets
> Justin Meram, MLS player for Columbus Crew (Iraqi sescent)
> Faryd Mondragón, MLS player for Philadelphia Union (Lebanese parents)
> Carl Nassib, defensive end for the Cleveland Browns
> Ryan Nassib, backup quarterback for the New York Giants
> Ramsey Nijem (Palestinian), mixed martial artist and UFC fighter
> Bobby Rahal (Lebanese ancestry)
> Soony Saad, MLS player (Lebanese descent)
> Robert Saleh, defensive coordinator for the San Francisco 49ers (Lebanese Mother).
> Tarick Salmaci, professional boxer (Lebanese)
> Adam Shaheen, tight end from Ashland
> Omar Sheika (Palestinian), professional boxer, four-time world title challenger
> Kelly Slater, professional surfer (Lebanese descent)
> 
> Naser Jason Abdo, former soldier convicted of planning an attack near Fort Hood
> Sami Al-Arian, professor guilty of conspiracy to contribute services to or for the benefit of a Specially Designated Terrorist organization (Palestinian)
> Anwar al-Awlaki, believed by US officials to be a recruiter involved in planning terrorist operations for the Islamist militant group al-Qaeda (Yemeni)
> Nihad Awad, founding Executive Director of largest Muslim civil rights organization in the U.S., Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) (Palestinian)
> Rosemary Barkett, federal judge and first woman Justice and Chief Justice on the Florida Supreme Court (Syrian)
> Charles Bishop, suicide by plane crash in Tampa, Florida; grandson of Syrian immigrant[48][49]
> Nidal Malik Hasan, former soldier convicted of the 2009 Fort Hood shooting (Palestinian descent)
> Hussein Ibish, writer, journalist, advocate for Arab causes in the United States (Lebanese)
> Ali Hassan Abu Kama, gunman in 1997 Empire State Building shooting (Palestinian)
> Candice Lightner, founder of MADD (Lebanese mother)[50]
> Edward L. Masry, lawyer (Lebanese descent)
> Rasmea Odeh, convicted of immigration fraud, for concealing her arrest, conviction, and imprisonment for fatal terrorist bombing (Palestinian)[51][52]
> Walid Rabah, publisher
> Saint Raphael of Brooklyn, first Orthodox bishop to be consecrated in North America; born Raphael Hawaweeny in Beirut of Damascene Syrian parents
> Karim Rashid (Lebanese descent)
> Zainab Salbi, co-founder and president of Women for Women International (Iraqi)
> Sirhan Sirhan, convicted murderer of Robert F. Kennedy (Palestinian with Jordanian citizenship)
> Nadya Suleman, "Octomom", father is Iraqi
> James Zogby, Arab-American civil rights activist (Arab-American Institute); brother of John (Lebanese descent)
> John Zogby, pollster for Zogby International (Lebanese descent)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_Americans
> 
> How about you stop projecting my mentally ill troll?
> 
> @The SC this forum/thread seems to attract pure morons.
> 
> Yes a nation where 40% cannot even write or read their own names, are somehow purely doctors, while Arabs, whose contribution to science throughout history is lightyears ahead, are recused to truck drivers, despite just 100.000 Saudi Arabian students at US universities alone, yet alone the 1000's of Arab engineers, doctors, lawyers, scientists working in the US since decades ago from NASA to many other firms.
> 
> This Mongol is mentally ill.


Yes from the start..some morons started insulting Egyptians..Just like that..what a defeatist mentality..even when it is good news for Egypt, China, Pakistan and most likely KSA..
I know these people who started to derail the thread and their ill psychy..they project their own shortcomings and expose their minds without knowing it.. because they are not rational and don't understand that their negative emotions pollute their deep state of mind.. like some zombies not conscious of their consciousness or that their subconscious mind will expose them mentaly naked to some piercing eyes....One can see what negative emotions can do to the rational mind..be it jealousy, inferiority complex, hatred, ignorance, false sense of pride, false sense of importance..and so much more.. It is kinda amusing when you know how they think, feel and behave..
I am glad to have seen many rational Pakistanis here..they really make a difference.. but the forum got really infected by trolls or maybe just newbies trying to state their opinions on any and every subject even if they have no idea about it..ignoring the first rule of debate is to come up with solid sources that can be validated..

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## Total Destruction

I'm sorry but Thunder has no place in Egyptian air force, we are even not satisfied with f-16s and we hope to sell them to acquire more rafales and su-35.



StormBreaker said:


> Lol, If you think Pakistan will end, You are delusional.
> 
> Indus valley civilization is even older than Your Egyptian Civilization which is full of ruthless kings.
> 
> Our nation was born to be leader, Unlike you.
> 
> Talk to me with the same words in 10 years.
> 
> Remember, You have a small foe, You have a military on par with Pakistan, while Pakistan has a foe 15 times larger than Your foe israel.
> 
> We have kept our enemy on toe. Just imagine what we would have done with your enemy which is tiny and an embarrassment for your “Mighty Egypt”. Have you forgotten how your neighbour jordan asked for PAF pilots and how our Pilot SaifulAzam fu’ked up IAF jets ?
> 
> Go get a life.
> 
> 
> I will make sure to bring this post back to your face once A thunder shoots down IAF rafale in future, same rafale that you are purchasing.
> 
> Get ready...


Indus is no older than Egypt .. Egypt or (Misr) was named after prophet Noah grandson (Misryam) .. how come you are older? lol

we are no mighty not weak .. we are Egyptians and that's all.

save your hatred to some Indians occupying Kashmir.



Aslan1071 said:


>


Egypt defeated Ottoman empire more than once. 
: )

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## The SC

Total Destruction said:


> I'm sorry but Thunder has no place in Egyptian air force, we are even not satisfied with f-16s and we hope to sell them to acquire more rafales and su-35.
> 
> 
> Indus is no older than Egypt .. Egypt or (Misr) was named after prophet Noah grandson (Misryam) .. how come you are older? lol
> 
> we are no mighty not weak .. we are Egyptians and that's all.
> 
> save your hatred to some Indians occupying Kashmir.
> 
> 
> Egypt defeated Ottoman empire more than once.
> : )


There is place for the JF-17 mostly the new block III..because the F-16A will be retired and replaced by more Mig-35s..while the Mig-21 retired already and f-5s too add the j-8..these will need replacement in their light weight category..Egypt will have a Hi-low combination..Rafale, F-16B and beyond, Mig-35 and SU-35 as TheHhi end and there is need for the Low end..Also Egypt won't get more than 48 Rafale, their might be more SU-35 to 48 too.. but those are not very big numbers.. The JF-17 block III with its AESA radar and open weaponry will be a good choice if made locally and in good numbers..


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## OldTwilight

The SC said:


> There is place for the JF-17 mostly the new block III..because the F-16A will be retired and replaced by more Mig-35s..while the Mig-21 retired already and f-5s too add the j-8..these will need replacement in their light weight category..Egypt will have a Hi-low combination..Rafale, F-16B and beyond, Mig-35 and SU-35 as TheHhi end and there is need for the Low end..Also Egypt won't get more than 48 Rafale, their might be more SU-35 to 48 too.. but those are not very big numbers.. The JF-17 block III with its AESA radar and open weaponry will be a good choice if made locally and in good numbers..



Well , recently I was reading an interview with one of IIRGC commander . He stated that they (IIRGC) don't welcome too many drone types because any new drone will require training of new pilot operator , providing specialize weapon , new control system , providing different type of spare parts which in time of need will become logistic nightmare and reduce the force capability to operate effectively . So IIRGC want to operate only one type of drone in any field ... 

If maintaining and operating different kind of drones is logistical and operational nightmare, then the situation will be worst in manned combat aircraft field ... 

Egypt has too many aircraft, which will drain her resource .... Rafael , Mig 35 , Su-30 , .... all of these are multi role fighters , Egypt should only choose one and buy 100-150 of chosen aircraft to reduce it long term spending ...


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## The SC

OldTwilight said:


> Well , recently I was reading an interview with one of IIRGC commander . He stated that they (IIRGC) don't welcome too many drone types because any new drone will require training of new pilot operator , providing specialize weapon , new control system , providing different type of spare parts which in time of need will become logistic nightmare and reduce the force capability to operate effectively . So IIRGC want to operate only one type of drone in any field ...
> 
> If maintaining and operating different kind of drones is logistical and operational nightmare, then the situation will be worst in manned combat aircraft field ...
> 
> Egypt has too many aircraft, which will drain her resource .... Rafael , Mig 35 , Su-30 , .... all of these are multi role fighters , Egypt should only choose one and buy 100-150 of chosen aircraft to reduce it long term spending ...


A lot of people say that.. but the fact is Egypt has Mig trained staff for over 40 years, the Rafale replaces the Mirage..stuff trained on that too, Chinese fighters J-7 many staff trained on it..the only new platform is the SU-35.. So here you go..


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## Nashab

StormBreaker said:


> We have kept our enemy on toe. Just imagine what we would have done with your enemy which is tiny and an embarrassment for your “Mighty Egypt”. Have you forgotten how your neighbour jordan asked for PAF pilots and how our Pilot SaifulAzam fu’ked up IAF jets ?


*Saif Al-Din Al-Azeem is honored by the leader of King Hussein College (then), Brigadier Pilot Yusef Al-Hunaity. Al-Hunaity is currently the Chairman of the Jordanian Joint Staff*
*










*

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## Abdelrahman

OldTwilight said:


> Well , recently I was reading an interview with one of IIRGC commander . He stated that they (IIRGC) don't welcome too many drone types because any new drone will require training of new pilot operator , providing specialize weapon , new control system , providing different type of spare parts which in time of need will become logistic nightmare and reduce the force capability to operate effectively . So IIRGC want to operate only one type of drone in any field ...
> 
> If maintaining and operating different kind of drones is logistical and operational nightmare, then the situation will be worst in manned combat aircraft field ...
> 
> Egypt has too many aircraft, which will drain her resource .... Rafael , Mig 35 , Su-30 , .... all of these are multi role fighters , Egypt should only choose one and buy 100-150 of chosen aircraft to reduce it long term spending ...



Again. We have trust issues with depending on only one main supplier. Just watch what Russia is doing with its allies. They are humiliating the Syrians without giving them anything while being attacked by the Israelis day and night. They wanna keep them enslaved and always in need for Russia. All of that and this is Russia which is way more trusted than the Americans.

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## Turan09

Abdelrahman said:


> Again. We have trust issues with depending on only one main supplier. Just watch what Russia is doing with its allies. They are humiliating the Syrians without giving them anything while being attacked by the Israelis day and night. They wanna keep them enslaved and always in need for Russia. All of that and this is Russia which is way more trusted than the Americans.


A fair point... But the answer must be producing your own jet, just like how Pakistan did it. Truth is, you can't win a war with all this different kind of jets. Even their communication will be a problem. Let alone all this spare parts, and maintenance issue...

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## The SC

Turan09 said:


> A fair point... But the answer must be producing your own jet, just like how Pakistan did it. Truth is, you can't win a war with all this different kind of jets. Even their communication will be a problem. Let alone all this spare parts, and maintenance issue...


First.. It is obvious you didn't know that Egypt has its own C4i for decades now and most likely upgraded to C5i now that integrated all weapon platforms, air, land and sea ones..on top of military satellites.. So now you should know that integrating all the airforce fighter planes is done in Egypt with not much difficulties ..so no issues there..
Second.. Spare parts are usually bought in big quantities with the initial deals and most of the time they come with ToT to be manufactured locally.. mostly those parts that get used quickly.. As for maintenance, the old issues are gone long time ago, since any modern fighter computer can tell and pinpoint to the technicians what part or parts are faulty, so they go directly there to change of fix it..Gone the days of checking every piece of the airplane to try to find the faulty parts.. now it is 1000 times faster to fix a fighter plane's part after the automatic diagnosis which is permanently updated by the plane's computer..
And third there is a 90% chance that Egypt will start manufacturing the JF-17 blk3 through China and Pakistan.. as soon as it is thoroughly tested and approved..

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## Turan09

The SC said:


> First.. It is obvious you didn't know that Egypt has its own C4i for decades now and most likely upgraded to C5i now that integrated all weapon platforms, air, land and sea ones..on top of military satellites.. So now you should know that integrating all the airforce fighter planes is done in Egypt with not much difficulties ..so no issues there..
> Second.. Spare parts are usually bought in big quantities with the initial deals and most of the time they come with ToT to be manufactured locally.. mostly those parts that get used quickly.. As for maintenance, the old issues are gone long time ago, since any modern fighter computer can tell and pinpoint to the technicians what part or parts are faulty, so they go directly there to change of fix it..Gone the days of checking every piece of the airplane to try to find the faulty parts.. now it is 1000 times faster to fix a fighter plane parts after the automatic diagnosis which is permanently updated by the plane's computer..
> And third there is a 90% chance that Egypt will start manufacturing the JF-17 blk3 through China and Pakistan.. as soon as it is thoroughly tested and approved..


You talk nice... I must admit that, but the realty on ground doesn't support you.
''Government of Egypt to refurbish forty-three (43) AH-64E Apache attack helicopters for an estimated cost of $2.3 billion''
When I saw this Apache deal, it was weird. Helicopters were new, why you would spent 2.3 billion dollars to ''refurbish'' them? The answer I got is, engines of the Apache's are dead. Because of the lack of necessary maintenance, this brand new beasts were damaged, and remind you, this happened in peace time. And funny part is it will repeat itself if egypt doesn't fix it's own problem.
This is the same for jets... stock spare parts as much as you want, without a back up, maybe you can resist for a year or two, and that's it.
PS; You still don't see my point. Yes you might buy JF17. Maybe you will buy another 24 or 50 jets, and you think this will fix the problems? No. This time you gonna need new facilities. New maintenance workers and so on. And if you try to play smart by not buying necessary equipment you are gonna need more dollars just like this Apache deal.
All we need is to think. Is there any other nation except egypt that buys so many different types of jets? Perhaps India is a little bit closer but even they didn't brought that many... And we should ask ourselves. Is Egypt and India posses a greater knowledge than rest of the world? I think we all know the answer.

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## The SC

Turan09 said:


> You talk nice... I must admit that, but the realty on ground doesn't support you.
> ''Government of Egypt to refurbish forty-three (43) AH-64E Apache attack helicopters for an estimated cost of $2.3 billion''
> When I saw this Apache deal, it was weird. Helicopters were new, why you would spent 2.3 billion dollars to ''refurbish'' them? The answer I got is, engines of the Apache's are dead. Because of the lack of necessary maintenance, this brand new beasts were damaged, and remind you, this happened in peace time. And funny part is it will repeat itself if egypt doesn't fix it's own problem.
> This is the same for jets... stock spare parts as much as you want, without a back up, maybe you can resist for a year or two, and that's it.
> PS; You still don't see my point. Yes you might buy JF17. Maybe you will buy another 24 or 50 jets, and you think this will fix the problems? No. This time you gonna need new facilities. New maintenance workers and so on. And if you try to play smart by not buying necessary equipment you are gonna need more dollars just like this Apache deal.
> All we need is to think. Is there any other nation except egypt that buys so many different types of jets? Perhaps India is a little bit closer but even they didn't brought that many... And we should ask ourselves. Is Egypt and India posses a greater knowledge than rest of the world? I think we all know the answer.


- Again you did not understand the Apache deal.. 10 are new ..43 are old and being upgraded to a better version.. they were Apache D now they are Apache E Guardian..

*Egypt to upgrade Apaches to AH-64E standard*

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/2020/05/12/eefaf364-91de-4095-8e38-0edc28f05c58

- Egypt won't buy the JF-17 blk III.. it is going to manufacture it locally..

- You jumped the ToT part about spare parts.. sorry but you seem not very fluent in military affairs.. Just read my previous post again..


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## Turan09

The SC said:


> - Again you did not understand the Apache deal.. 10 are new ..43 are old and being upgraded to a better version.. they were Apache D now they are Apache E Guardian..
> 
> *Egypt to upgrade Apaches to AH-64E standard*
> 
> https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/2020/05/12/eefaf364-91de-4095-8e38-0edc28f05c58
> 
> - Egypt won't buy the JF-17 blk III.. it is going to manufacture it locally..
> 
> - You jumped the ToT part about spare parts.. sorry but you seem not very fluent in military affairs.. Just read my previous post again..


Again perhaps I wasn't clear with what I said, gonna repeat myself with more basic words.
This Apache deal is not a ''modernization'' You know this word right? ''modernization'' What you doing with Apache is ''remanufacture'' And you are gonna pay billions (US's military aid actually) because you damaged the helicopters, is it more clear now?

''Assembling'' is not ''producing'' you know this words too right? Or you can look at to dictionary if you need. Even if you do this, which it is questionable because egypt normally just buys without local Assemble, Rafale is an example. And even if you do that, so what? I ignored this part, simply because it doesn't mean anything. We did the same with F16s in 80's... Heck we even assembled egyptian f16s here is Turkey. Assembling the existent parts means nothing.
Now, answer my question, does Egypt and maybe India posses a greater knowledge than rest of the world? The answer is simple as that.
The words you need to know, ''modernization'' - ''remanufacture'' - ''Assembling'' - ''Producing''


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## The SC

Turan09 said:


> Again perhaps I wasn't clear with what I said, gonna repeat myself with more basic words.
> This Apache deal is not a ''modernization'' You know this word right? ''modernization'' What you doing with Apache is ''remanufacture'' And you are gonna pay billions (US's military aid actually) because you damaged the helicopters, is it more clear now?
> 
> ''Assembling'' is not ''producing'' you know this words too right? Or you can look at to dictionary if you need. Even if you do this, which it is questionable because egypt normally just buys without local Assemble, Rafale is an example. And even if you do that, so what? I ignored this part, simply because it doesn't mean anything. We did the same with F16s in 80's... Heck we even assembled egyptian f16s here is Turkey. Assembling the existent parts means nothing.
> Now, answer my question, does Egypt and maybe India posses a greater knowledge than rest of the world? The answer is simple as that.
> The words you need to know, ''modernization'' - ''remanufacture'' - ''Assembling'' - ''Producing''


OK go learn them first and come back to discuss it..
And don't forget to read the article again ..it is from Jane defense..they say upgrade to the Apache E Guardian standard..which is the latest..and if Egypt could upgrade the Apache Ds purchased in 2003 and 2010 it means they are in a good state..otherwise new ones would have been purchased..

I don't know why I smell jealousy in your comments!
You can try to hide it but the more you come out, the more it shows..


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## Turan09

The SC said:


> OK go learn them first and come back to discuss it..
> And don't forget to read the article again ..it is from Jane defense..they say upgrade to the Apache E Guardian standard..which is the latest..and if Egypt could upgrade the Apache Ds purchased in 2003 and 2010 it means they are in a good state..otherwise new ones would have been purchased..
> 
> I don't know why I smell jealousy in your comments!
> You can try to hide it but the more you come out, the more it shows..


Your comment about jealousy is kind of funny... Do you remember before Sisi egypt was one of our costumers of Turkish Defence Industry, right? Because I do remember. 
Just gonna let it sink in... 
The words you need to know, ''modernization'' - ''remanufacture'' - ''Assembling'' - ''Producing'' When you understand the difference of this words, we will be in the same page.

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## The SC

Turan09 said:


> Your comment about jealousy is kind of funny... Do you remember before Sisi egypt was one of our costumers of Turkish Defence Industry, right? Because I do remember.
> Just gonna let it sink in...
> The words you need to know, ''modernization'' - ''remanufacture'' - ''Assembling'' - ''Producing'' When you understand the difference of this words, we will be in the same page.


Nope it was turkey contracting under US..it happened once with F-16s and they had to go back to the US for final assessments and delivered to Egypt from the US.. just get your facts right..


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## Turan09

The SC said:


> Nope it was turkey contracting under US..it happened once with F-16s and they had to go back to the US for final assessments and delivered to Egypt from the US.. just get your facts right..


egypt was first country who interested with Anka and actually, they were gonna order 10 Drones. Same for some MRTP Class boats. 
About F16s, this happens when you buy your weapons from US by ''FMS'' channel. (Foreign Military Sales) Long story short, your weapons first must handed to US army ( army, navy or airforce) , and after US army got it officially, it will ''gift'' it to you. 
We used FMS channel in 80s... 
And this is arab, some more military info for you.


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## The SC

Turan09 said:


> egypt was first country who interested with Anka and actually, they were gonna order 10 Drones. Same for some MRTP Class boats.
> About F16s, this happens when you buy your weapons from US by ''FMS'' channel. (Foreign Military Sales) Long story short, your weapons first must handed to US army ( army, navy or airforce) , and after US army got it officially, it will ''gift'' it to you.
> We used FMS channel in 80s...
> And this is arab, some more military info for you.


You are repeating after me the Arab..like a Parrot.. just to feel a lil' important.. OK then
See! told you the more you come out, the more you expose your hidden feelings.. Now it came out again with "Gift"..ignoring the Camp David accord.. where Usrael gets double in FMS..OK Turk?

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## XTQ1999

if Egyptian JF-17s are equipped with Chinese BVR missiles and cruise missiles, they will be way more advanced than their limited F-16, JF-17 is a perfect platform it terms of cost to replace a large fleet of F-16s

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## IblinI

what, this is just a rumor right?


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## The SC

ziaulislam said:


> I though saudis were financing the rafales and migs were being given from Russia ..
> Why jf17 ..odd


Means you were wrong in your thoughts..

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## The SC

IblinI said:


> what, this is just a rumor right?


The JF-17 was proposed to Egypt.. by China..since 2010..

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## Sheikh Rauf

Not possible, Egyptians think they are in higher league so they can acquire money from saudia and buy anything from us or europe but not from Pakistan.
unity is a rare breed among muslims so dont expect anything.

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## Philip the Arab

If the deal is going to happen it will happen at or before EDEX 2020 in December in my opinion.


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## The SC

Philip the Arab said:


> If the deal is going to happen it will happen at or before EDEX 2020 in December in my opinion.


It is possible.. but why Bro?
Need to see how it performs first.. and it is not even ready yet..maybe in tests as many threads show in the F-17 BlkIII section.. but in fact it will be good as soon as it is possible..

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## Mrc

Instead of buying f 16s without BVR or rafael without meteor Egypt is far better even with jf 17 block 2 let alone block 3


Chinese can open another production line and supply then a descent BVR platform in numbers like 2 3 hundred in no time.

All sissi f 16s can do at the moment is bomb own population if required

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## Philip the Arab

Mrc said:


> Instead of buying f 16s without BVR or rafael without meteor Egypt is far better even with jf 17 block 2 let alone block 3
> 
> 
> Chinese can open another production line and supply then a descent BVR platform in numbers like 2 3 hundred in no time.
> 
> All sissi f 16s can do at the moment is bomb own population if required


They have a BVR with AIM-7 Sparrow M, and its really funny how you classify Sisi. I bet you the population that supports him is equal to the percent of the population that supports Erodgan, but none of you ever say about Erdogan that it seems.

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## Mrc

Philip the Arab said:


> They have a BVR with AIM-7 Sparrow M, and its really funny how you classify Sisi. I bet you the population that supports him is equal to the percent of the population that supports Erodgan, but none of you ever say about Erdogan that it seems.




Semi active radar homing... 1000 years old tech 

Iranian f 14s have same


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## Philip the Arab

Mrc said:


> Semi active radar homing... 1000 years old tech
> 
> Iranian f 14s have same


Fair enough, you didn't answer my second comment.


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## The SC

Mrc said:


> Semi active radar homing... 1000 years old tech
> 
> Iranian f 14s have same


You forgot the Rafale with Mica, the Mig-35 with many Bvr missile and the Su-35 with much more and better ones.. how stupid can one be? Oh I understand you are living a 1000 years ago..HaHa


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Philip the Arab said:


> They have a BVR with AIM-7 Sparrow M, and its really funny how you classify Sisi. I bet you the population that supports him is equal to the percent of the population that supports Erodgan, but none of you ever say about Erdogan that it seems.


Elections vs military overthrow and deaths in prison of opponents.

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## Mrc

The SC said:


> You forgot the Rafale with Mica, the Mig-35 with many Bvr missile and the Su-35 with much more and better ones.. how stupid can one be? Oh I understand you are living a 1000 years ago..HaHa




OK don't buy than

Those r 77 on su 35 is enough


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## Philip the Arab

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Elections vs military overthrow and deaths in prison of opponents.


If Morsi stayed in power the Copts would have revolted eventually and Egypt would be in situation 5 times worse than Syria. If you don't know something, don't speak.


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## The SC

Mrc said:


> OK don't buy than
> 
> Those r 77 on su 35 is enough


None of your business..Turkish stooge and spy.. Real Pakistan knows your stupid game..


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## zectech

If Egypt gets a hold of the PL-15s for JF-17s, China should put a BeiDou tracking chip in them to make sure they stay in Egypt. Sisi is a former CiA asset. I am sure the CiA/Washington would pay Sisi many millions of dollars for a PL-15 shipped/flown to the US.

Too many Russian weapons end up in the US, without Russian approval. China is supposedly the new cold war. I would oppose China selling PL-15s to Egypt. Sisi was essentially installed by the CiA/Washington.

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## Philip the Arab

zectech said:


> If Egypt gets a hold of the PL-15s for JF-17s, China should put a BeiDou tracking chip in them to make sure they stay in Egypt. Sisi is a former CiA asset. I am sure the CiA/Washington would pay Sisi many millions of dollars for a PL-15 shipped/flown to the US.
> 
> Too many Russian weapons end up in the US, without Russian approval. China is supposedly the new cold war. I would oppose China selling PL-15s to Egypt. Sisi was essentially installed by the CiA/Washington.


Why would they sanction his goverment if they wanted him? Obama supported the Morsi terrorists.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/10/world/middleeast/obama-military-aid-to-egypt.html

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## The SC

zectech said:


> If Egypt gets a hold of the PL-15s for JF-17s, China should put a BeiDou tracking chip in them to make sure they stay in Egypt. Sisi is a former CiA asset. I am sure the CiA/Washington would pay Sisi many millions of dollars for a PL-15 shipped/flown to the US.
> 
> Too many Russian weapons end up in the US, without Russian approval. China is supposedly the new cold war. I would oppose China selling PL-15s to Egypt. Sisi was essentially installed by the CiA/Washington.



Are you sure of what you are saying or just ignorant of the facts?
*Imran Khan claims Pakistani intelligence led CIA to bin Laden*

https://www.france24.com/en/20190723-imran-khan-bin-laden-pakistani-usa-cia-intelligence


Man.. Russia proposed the sale of the S-400 system to the US.._you can google it_..they are so sure of their systems integrity that they have done that..And in fact what can the US do with antique Russian systems..that is not logical..


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Philip the Arab said:


> If Morsi stayed in power the Copts would have revolted eventually and Egypt would be in situation 5 times worse than Syria. If you don't know something, don't speak.


This is a discussion forum.

I am really tired of trolls rudely telling other posters what they can or cannot speak on.

Ciao

With respect to the actual comment - hypothetical what-ifs of X revolting are not justification for a dictator overthrowing an elected government and murdering the leadership of the winning political party in prison.

Sissy is a unelected tyrant who overthrew an elected government and, by some accounts, murdered the political leadership in custody, and no amount of dissembling and excuses change that reality.

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## The SC

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> This is a discussion forum.
> 
> I am really tired of trolls rudely telling other posters what they can or cannot speak on.
> 
> Ciao
> 
> With respect to the actual comment - hypothetical what-ifs of X revolting are not justification for a dictator overthrowing an elected government and murdering the leadership of the winning political party in prison.
> 
> Sissy is a unelected tyrant who overthrew an elected government and, by some accounts, murdered the political leadership in custody, and no amount of dissembling and excuses change that reality.


*Why Did Ousted Egyptian President Morsi Lose Power?*

...
When the 2011 revolution broke out, Brotherhood leaders did not initially take a position. They later encouraged their members to participate without invoking the Brotherhood’s Islamist slogans or ideology. But with Mubarak’s ouster and the beginning of a political transition, they sided with the military against secular and leftist protesters in favor of holding parliamentary elections before drafting a new constitution. Employing the strongest mass organization of any party, they succeeded in taking a large plurality of seats in the new legislature and finally, after a two rounds and a legal battle, the presidency in 2012.

Yet while formally assuming these offices of power, Morsi and the Brotherhood still shared effective power with the military and other bodies. Paranoid and with little governing experience, they embarked on a campaign to eliminate their opposition as quickly as possible. But they only succeeded in alienating any potential allies and the public at large.

Morsi soon revoked an interim constitutional declaration that defined his relationship to the military leadership and forced through a new constitution with little cooperation from other revolutionary parties in December 2012. Although it made no direct move on military or police authority, the Brotherhood sought to impose its will on the judiciary, prosecutor’s office, and cultural and social ministries, sparking outrage in many different areas of Egyptian society. Morsi even decided to cull the older generation of generals in the military leadership, actually placing al-Sisi as chairman. The Brotherhood’s own actions effectively squandered the public legitimacy that was its only support.

...

https://daily.jstor.org/why-did-ousted-egyptian-president-morsi-lose-power/


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The SC said:


> Although it made no direct move on military or police authority, the Brotherhood sought to impose its will on the judiciary, prosecutor’s office, and cultural and social ministries, sparking outrage in many different areas of Egyptian society. Morsi even decided to cull the older generation of generals in the military leadership, actually placing al-Sisi as chairman. The Brotherhood’s own actions effectively squandered the public legitimacy that was its only support.


If those actions had in fact 'squandered public legitimacy', the solution to that lost legitimacy was to engage in peaceful protests for new elections or wait for new elections.

Government decisions can also be challenged in the courts.

A proper democratic process takes time, patience and continuity to develop, and Pakistan, while a far more complex case given it's ethno-linguistic diversity and geo-political challenges, is an excellent example of that.

None of the actions detailed in the article you quoted justify a dictator overthrowing a government and murdering political opponents in prison.

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## The SC

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> If those actions had in fact 'squandered public legitimacy', the solution to that lost legitimacy was to engage in peaceful protests for new elections or wait for new elections.
> 
> Government decisions can also be challenged in the courts.
> 
> A proper democratic process takes time, patience and continuity to develop, and Pakistan, while a far more complex case given it's ethno-linguistic diversity and geo-political challenges, is an excellent example of that.
> 
> None of the actions detailed in the article you quoted justify a dictator overthrowing a government and murdering political opponents in prison.


*Protesters across Egypt call for Mohamed Morsi to go *

*Millions of demonstrators line streets to demand president's removal on first anniversary of his inauguration
*





Egyptians protest against President Mohamed Morsi in Cairo. Photograph: EPA 

Millions of Egyptians filled streets across Egypt on Sunday calling for the departure of Mohamed Morsi on Sunday, hours after the president told the Guardian he would not resign.

A year to the day after Morsi's inauguration as Egypt's first democratically elected president, up to 500,000 protesters swelled Cairo's Tahrir Square calling for Morsi's removal. They then headed to Itahadiya, the presidential palace in the north-east of the city in the evening.

Security sources said that at least seven people were killed and more than 600 wounded in clashes between Morsi's supporters and opponents.

Five of the dead were shot in towns south of Cairo, one each in Beni Suef and Fayoum and three in Assiut.

Two more were killed by gunfire during an attack on the national headquarters of Mursi's Muslim Brotherhood in a suburb of the capital, medical sources said.

Hundreds of people throwing petrol bombs and rocks attacked the building, which caught fire as guards and Brotherhood members inside the building exchanged gunfire with attackers.

State news agency MENA reported that 11 were treated in hospital for birdshot wounds, and across the country, the health ministry said, 613 people were injured as a result of factional fighting in the streets.

In Alexandria, Egypt's second city, 100,000 rallied in the centre, with similar rallies reported in dozens of other Egyptian cities. The headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood, Morsi's Islamist group, came under attack as night fell.
A spokesman for Morsi said that the president knew he had made mistakes and was working to fix them. Omar Amer added that Morsi was serious in his repeated calls for national dialogue.

"(Morsi) announced to all of Egypt's people that he made mistakes and that he is in the process of fixing these mistakes," Amer told a late-night news conference.

He said Morsi had "extended his hand" for dialogue and wanted to listen to everyone, repeating the president's previous calls for national dialogue, which the opposition has rebuffed as not serious.

"I want to confirm one truth, if there is a total lack of response to this initiative, no listening to it, no interest in it from any side, what do you think the presidency can do?" the president's spokesman said. "The presidency is now waiting for a reaction, no matter how small, so it can build on it." The scale of the protests – which took place on the first day of the Egyptian working week – surpassed predictions made by presidential aides, who had expected only 150,000 people to take part nationwide.

A military source told Reuters that as many as 14 million people in the country of 84 million took part in the demonstrations. There was no independent way of verifying that estimate, though the armed forces used helicopters to monitor the crowds. 

"The scenes of protests are unprecedented in size and scope, and seemingly surpass those during the 18-day uprising that toppled Mubarak," said Michael Hanna, a fellow at the Century Foundation and a longtime Egypt analyst.

The scale of protests were even more remarkable, Hanna said, because they were "a bottom-up, grassroots effort and not directed by political opposition leaders. In a sense, they have latched on to this expanding current. While the organisers were diligent and creative, while lacking organisation and funding, this breadth of mass mobilisation could not have transpired unless the protest movement was tapping into deep and growing frustration and disenchantment with the current course of the country and its leadership."

Some senior members of the Muslim Brotherhood spent the day travelling, fearing for their safety. Morsi himself moved from Itahadiya to the Quba palace, a state building in a safer part of Cairo.

"Egyptians are doing it again," said Ahmed Said, a leader of the largest opposition coalition, the National Salvation Front (NSF).

"They insist on regaining their hijacked revolution. We have revolted to reclaim our dignity, and reclaim our dignity we will."

But Morsi was defiant in the face of such dissent. "If we changed someone in office who [was elected] according to constitutional legitimacy – well, there will be people opposing the new president too, and a week or a month later they will ask him to step down," Morsi told the Guardian in an exclusive interview.

While Morsi was elected in free elections, his opponents believe he has failed to uphold the democratic values on which a well-rounded democracy depends. In particular, he has been criticised for using a presidential decree to force through an Islamist-slanted constitution, viewed by many as the act of a dictator.

Among many other complaints, Morsi has been accused of presiding over the oppression of activists and journalists, and a marked drop in living standards.

Once a consensus candidate for Islamist and secular voters, critics say he has alienated secular politicians and failed to achieve the unity he was elected to build. Morsi blames the opposition for failing to meet him halfway.

"Morsi got elected in a democratic way," said one government critic, businessman Hassan Shanab. "But since he took over, everything's been polarised. All of a sudden, we see ourselves part of an Islamic regime like Iran. Morsi's answerable to the Brotherhood, but they are not answerable to us." As Shanab spoke, a crowd of protesters nearby started pelting a giant poster of Morsi with stones.

The president still has a vocal support base, 20,000 of whom have been camped in east Cairo since Friday in a show of support for his regime and for its democratic legitimacy. Many of them saw the protests elsewhere as counter-revolutionary and some claimed they had been started by forces loyal to former dictator Hosni Mubarak. 

"I'm here to defend my vote, and to defend a revolution I was part of," said Shaima Abdel-Hamid, a teacher and Morsi supporter.

"We chose a president and now they want to get rid of him when he's dealing with 30 years of corruption. And they want to get rid of him after only a year."

"Seculars will not rule Egypt again," chanted one crowd of Morsi backers, who come not just from the Muslim Brotherhood, but from other Islamist groups such as Gamaa Islamiya, a Salafi movement.

A senior Brotherhood politician, Essam El-Erian, denounced the protests as a "coup attempt". In a statement on the group's website, he challenged the opposition to test public opinion in parliamentary elections instead of "simply massing people in violent demonstrations, thuggery or shedding the precious blood of Egyptians".

Yet many in Tahrir Square emphasised their religiosity, while rejecting what they perceived as the Brotherhood's attempts to run the Egyptian state along religious lines and to arbitrate on the correct interpretation of Islam. "I voted for him," said Haga Zeinab, a niqab-wearing protester in Tahrir. "But it turns out he only thinks his own people can be Muslims."

Anti-regime protesters created a carnival atmosphere in the square, with many setting off fireworks. At Itahadiya, they bobbed to patriotic songs played from a soundsystem resting on a first-floor balcony.

But at the Islamist rally, the mood was tetchy, particularly after several Brotherhood offices were attacked this week, and one former Brotherhood MP was killed. Many donned cycle helmets and builders' hard hats, and held shields and sticks in case of attack, waiting in defensive mode behind six lines of security checks. Some carried homemade shields emblazoned with the slogan: "Legitimacy is a red line" – a reference to Morsi's democratic mandate.

But with senior Muslim clerics warning of the prospect of civil war this week, many of the Islamists promised to act if the presidential palace came under attack from anti-Morsi protesters, and the police or the army fail to defend it.

The police have historically been no friend of the Brotherhood; across Egypt there were isolated accounts of policemen expressing support for anti-Morsi protesters.

"Now we're seeing the revolution being threatened," said Mohamed Sherif Abdeen, an IT teacher and member of the Muslim Brotherhood. He was carrying a stick and wearing a hard hat – for self-defence, he said. "We won't do anything if the army and police do their job. But, if not, and they don't protect the presidential palace, we will protect it with our chests."

At Itahadiya, medics were taking precautions, anticipating night-time attacks from Islamist forces or state officials. Tahrir Doctors, who tend to the injured at most Cairo protests, set up three field hospitals, staffed by about 30 medics. "If we get any injured from any side, we will treat them equally," said Dr Amr Shebaita, the group's head.
Egypt has been rife with speculation about what will happen next. Two of Egypt's best-known opposition leaders – leftist Hamdeen Sabbahy and liberal Mohamed Baradei – were photographed marching arm in arm towards Itahadiya on Sunday. Should Morsi fall, both are considered potential key players in any transition scenario. Among Morsi's opponents, the most popular and startling choice of successor – at least in the interim – may be the head of the armed forces, General Abdel Fattah Sisi.

There is widespread support for an army coup, particularly after Sisi hinted at the possibility of military intervention last week. "Come on Sisi," chanted protesters outside the presidential palace on Sunday. "My president is not Morsi."

Demonstrators camped outside Cairo's defence ministry – in yet another protest – shouted: "The people and the army are one hand."

...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/30/mohamed-morsi-egypt-protests


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The SC said:


> *Protesters across Egypt call for Mohamed Morsi to go *


That’s wonderful- and guess what?

You keep protesting peacefully until the government has no choice but to step down and call for new elections.

Did Morsi govt step down peacefully or was it forcibly overthrown by the military?

Were transparent and fair elections held?

We’ve had massive protests against the PMLN govt and the PTI govt in Pakistan - that isn’t justification for a dictator to overthrow a government.

@The SC 
Why are you so intent on justifying sissy’s actions?

Whatever the flaws of the Morsi govt, it should have had a fair chance to govern and address issues. As I said earlier, democracy, like Rome, isn’t built in a day, especially when you’re dealing with a society and State that has been governed as a dictatorship for decades.

Systems, institutions and societies are destroyed during dictatorships that long - they need to be rebuilt and that takes time.

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## The SC

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> That’s wonderful- and guess what?
> 
> You keep protesting peacefully until the government has no choice but to step down and call for new elections.
> 
> Did Morsi govt step down peacefully or was it forcibly overthrown by the military?
> 
> Were transparent and fair elections held?
> 
> We’ve had massive protests against the PMLN govt and the PTI govt in Pakistan - that isn’t justification for a dictator to overthrow a government.
> 
> @The SC
> Why are you so intent on justifying sissy’s actions?
> 
> Whatever the flaws of the Morsi govt, it should have had a fair chance to govern and address issues. As I said earlier, democracy, like Rome, isn’t built in a day, especially when you’re dealing with a society and State that has been governed as a dictatorship for decades.
> 
> Systems, institutions and societies are destroyed during dictatorships that long - they need to be rebuilt and that takes time.


It is obvious that the Egyptian people did not want to give Morsi anymore time, Because as simple as it might sound, they did not want to be another Iran..

I am not justifying ..just brought facts..that might help understand why Morsi was toppled by the Egyptian people ..


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The SC said:


> It is obvious that the Egyptian people did not want to give Morsi anymore time, Because as simple as it might sound, they did not want to be another Iran..
> 
> I am not justifying ..just brought facts..that might help understand why Morsi was toppled by the Egyptian people ..


I can't accept that he was toppled by the Egyptian people because the military overthrew him.

Egyptians protested, as is their right, but the military taking control of the country makes those protests suspect in terms of how much involvement the Egyptian military had in stoking them.

How long was Morsi in power after all? About a year?

Are the Egyptian people that stupid that they wanted to overthrow a government in just over a year?

Even in Pakistan we have idiots who were cursing and abusing Imran Khan and the PTI after a year for not fixing the myriad structural issues that have been decades in the making, and while there have been protests, many of us have also called for calm and patience and letting the new PTI government make mistakes, learn and have a fair chance to demonstrate whether it can start to deliver on the promises it made.

Even during the previous 10 years of the abysmal PPP and PMLN governments, that I opposed, I argued against anyone who wanted an unconstitutional overthrow of the PPP or PMLN government because democracy is never going to have a chance to mature without letting both the electorate and the governing parties go through the process of governance and elections where they are judged based on their performance.

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## Indos

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> That’s wonderful- and guess what?
> 
> You keep protesting peacefully until the government has no choice but to step down and call for new elections.
> 
> Did Morsi govt step down peacefully or was it forcibly overthrown by the military?
> 
> Were transparent and fair elections held?
> 
> We’ve had massive protests against the PMLN govt and the PTI govt in Pakistan - that isn’t justification for a dictator to overthrow a government.
> 
> @The SC
> Why are you so intent on justifying sissy’s actions?
> 
> Whatever the flaws of the Morsi govt, it should have had a fair chance to govern and address issues. As I said earlier, democracy, like Rome, isn’t built in a day, especially when you’re dealing with a society and State that has been governed as a dictatorship for decades.
> 
> Systems, institutions and societies are destroyed during dictatorships that long - they need to be rebuilt and that takes time.



It is weird that he live in a democratic Canada but dont understand simple logic that demonstration cannot topple any democratic elected President.

This 212 demonstration in Jakarta, Indonesia, was held by Islamist who is naturally anti Jokowi. Despite huge demonstrator that filled the Jakarta street, they do understand that demonstration cannot make what they want to happen. They just want to show their political power during Jakarta election which is a fight between Jokowi camp vs Islamist.

It is why they dont force their agenda through demonstration like happening in Thailand/Egypt/Iraq/Hongkong/Lebanon. The demonstration was only held 2 times so our economy doesnt get any effect.

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## The SC

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I can't accept that he was toppled by the Egyptian people because the military overthrew him.
> 
> Egyptians protested, as is their right, but the military taking control of the country makes those protests suspect in terms of how much involvement the Egyptian military had in stoking them.
> 
> How long was Morsi in power after all? About a year?
> 
> Are the Egyptian people that stupid that they wanted to overthrow a government in just over a year?
> 
> Even in Pakistan we have idiots who were cursing and abusing Imran Khan and the PTI after a year for not fixing the myriad structural issues that have been decades in the making, and while there have been protests, many of us have also called for calm and patience and letting the new PTI government make mistakes, learn and have a fair chance to demonstrate whether it can start to deliver on the promises it made.
> 
> Even during the previous 10 years of the abysmal PPP and PMLN governments, that I opposed, I argued against anyone who wanted an unconstitutional overthrow of the PPP or PMLN government because democracy is never going to have a chance to mature without letting both the electorate and the governing parties go through the process of governance and elections where they are judged based on their performance.


Well I understand that it goes smoothly in Pakistan sometimes, and in other cases there were assassinations too as in the cases of Benazir and Zia.. And I am curious to know what Pakistani people would have done if any president decides on his own to make Pakistan another Islamist nation like Iran..
The smoothness was tried in Egypt by holding fair elections and electing Morsi..but what do you do when a President starts doing opposite things to what he was elected for and almost right away..Egyptians in fact were very smart to topple him sooner rather than later.. as we can see now Egypt is doing pretty well on all levels..And the army is not a different entity in Egypt, it is from the same people and serves them..



Indos said:


> It is weird that he live in a democratic Canada but dont understand simple logic that demonstration cannot topple any democratic elected President.
> 
> This 212 demonstration in Jakarta, Indonesia, was held by Islamist who is naturally anti Jokowi. Despite huge demonstrator that filled the Jakarta street, they do understand that demonstration cannot make what they want to happen. They just want to show their political power during Jakarta election which is a fight between Jokowi camp vs Islamist.
> 
> It is why they dont force their agenda through demonstration like happening in Thailand/Egypt/Iraq/Hongkong/Lebanon. The demonstration was only held 2 times so our economy doesnt get any effect.


No my friend.. if a prime minister here in Canada tries to change the whole system like let say to a communist system, he will be rejected right away and forced to resign and leave his post..

BTW how long those demonstrations lasted in your country? Because in Egypt the protests went on for 18 days 24/h a day to topple Mubarak and more than a week to topple Morsi.. So as you say the economy was hit.. but the end justifies the means in the Egyptian case..as you can see now Egypt is doing better than ever..


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## Indos

The SC said:


> No my friend.. if a prime minister here in Canada tries to change the whole system like let say a communist system , he will be rejected right away and forced to resign and leave his post..
> 
> BTW how long those demonstrations lasted in your country? Because in Egypt the protests went on for 18 days 24/h a day to topple Mubarak and more than a week to topple Morsi.. So as you say the economy was hit.. but the end justifies the means in the Egyptians case..as you can see now Egypt is doing better than ever..



Look like you and other Nationalist Arab are afraid with Mursi intention to change the constitution while he has 70 % seat in parliament (with Salafist backing). What ever he will make on the constitution, I believe Egypt will not likely to turn 180 degree into a country like Iran. I believe MB still believe with democracy. They do understand there is still military there that hold significant power. 

And I also see that you dont have any problem with Saudi government despite they have become ultra Islamist (although currently they are against political Islam that believe with democracy system). I also dont like ultra Islamist who control people too much and enforce rule like obligatory hijab, forcing men to pray Jumah, something that I believe is not even written in both Quran and Hadith. 

Actually any change should be made gradually, it is one of the wrong thing made by MB. I have seen it during that period and I have suggested Egyptian MB not to take any drastic change in constitution through popular Facebook page. But since individual posting in FB page is not really having any exposure among the party elite so no one hearing my suggestion. 

They should first make military give up their political and economical power like what Indonesia did during 1999-2004. They should cooperate with the other group (Nationalist) to weaken the military first instead of targeting its Islamist agenda. Indonesia also still respect Soeharto and political party under Soeharto (Golkar). Golkar still hold big power even until now and Soeharto was stil respected until his death. Putting Mubarak into a jail is a mistake since it makes the military angry. I hope if there is any political change happen again in Arab world, they should instead follow what has been done by Indonesian.

The reason Indonesian Islamist dont do long demonstration at that event (2016) because we as people have become more mature about democracy. The event happened during Jakarta election campaign. In the first 4 years of our democracy, there were many demonstration conducted by university students. Particularly the secularist, Christian and nationalist one since they are afraid that democracy in the long term will favor Islamist agenda. They want to change democracy with a committee of group with equal power. Maybe in essence their effort is similar with Egypt anti Mursi demonstration to prevent Islamist reach their goal. But unlike happening in Egypt, our people dont support them.


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## The SC

Indos said:


> Look like you and other Nationalist Arab are afraid with Mursi intention to change the constitution while he has 70 % seat in parliament (with Salafist backing). What ever he will make on the constitution, I believe Egypt will not likely to turn 180 degree into a country like Iran. I believe MB still believe with democracy. They do understand there is still military there that hold significant power.
> 
> And I also see that you dont have any problem with Saudi government despite they have become ultra Islamist (although currently they are against political Islam that believe with democracy system). I also dont like ultra Islamist who control people too much and enforce rule like obligatory hijab, forcing men to pray Jumah, something that I believe is not even written in both Quran and Hadith.
> 
> Actually any change should be made gradually, it is one of the wrong thing made by MB. I have seen it during that period and I have suggested Egyptian MB not to take any drastic change in constitution through popular Facebook page. But since individual posting in FB page is not really having any exposure among the party elite so no one hearing my suggestion.
> 
> They should first make military give up their political and economical power like what Indonesia did during 1999-2004. They should cooperate with the other group (Nationalist) to weaken the military first instead of targeting its Islamist agenda. Indonesia also still respect Soeharto and political party under Soeharto (Golkar). Golkar still hold big power even until now and Soeharto was stil respected until his death. Putting Mubarak into a jail is a mistake since it makes the military angry. I hope if there is any political change happen again in Arab world, they should instead follow what has been done by Indonesian.
> 
> The reason Indonesian Islamist dont do long demonstration at that event (2016) because we as people have become more mature about democracy. The event happened during Jakarta election campaign. In the first 4 years of our democracy, there were many demonstration conducted by university students. Particularly the secularist, Christian and nationalist one since they are afraid that democracy in the long term will favor Islamist agenda. They want to change democracy with a committee of group with equal power. Maybe in essence their effort is similar with Egypt anti Mursi demonstration to prevent Islamist reach their goal. But unlike happening in Egypt, our people dont support them.


I am glad to hear that your country Indonesia is a democratic state.. I can see your nationalism is moderate as most Arabs..
But here we are talking about the ME, a hot spot by all means..Already 3 Arab nations were almost lost to that Arab spring movement that apparently has been stirred from outside the Arab world, namely; Syria, Libya and Yemen.. and it has reached most other Arab nations with demonstrations.. so you can be sure that there is some form of democracy in those countries that have survived the Arab spring without any bloodshed, violence or suppression..


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## Imran Khan

i think it was about JF-17 BLOCK 3 and egypt 
not mursi vs sisi and internal issues of egypt

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## Elgamd

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> That’s wonderful- and guess what?
> 
> You keep protesting peacefully until the government has no choice but to step down and call for new elections.
> 
> Did Morsi govt step down peacefully or was it forcibly overthrown by the military?
> 
> Were transparent and fair elections held?
> 
> We’ve had massive protests against the PMLN govt and the PTI govt in Pakistan - that isn’t justification for a dictator to overthrow a government.
> 
> @The SC
> Why are you so intent on justifying sissy’s actions?
> 
> Whatever the flaws of the Morsi govt, it should have had a fair chance to govern and address issues. As I said earlier, democracy, like Rome, isn’t built in a day, especially when you’re dealing with a society and State that has been governed as a dictatorship for decades.
> 
> Systems, institutions and societies are destroyed during dictatorships that long - they need to be rebuilt and that takes time.


We did protest against Morsi, and demanded him to leave, but he refused, and said "Let me complete my 4 years" so the military warned him, and gave him a date to resign before, but again he refused. and the rest went down as history.

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## The SC

3amtarekelgamd said:


> We did protest against Morsi, and demanded him to leave, but he refused, and said "Let me complete my 4 years" so the military warned him, and gave him a date to resign before, but again he refused. and the rest went down as history.


What is your take on Egypt getting an assembly line for the JF-17 BLK III?


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## Elgamd

The SC said:


> What is your take on Egypt getting an assembly line for the JF-17 BLK III?


The Egyptian Airforce, would be completely independent on their weapons, they will also be capable of changing their aging Jets, and pretty much would make the EAF unstopable, also as a natural side affect, the Egyptian Engineers would gain alot of experience, that they could use in developing their own jets.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

3amtarekelgamd said:


> We did protest against Morsi, and demanded him to leave, but he refused, and said "Let me complete my 4 years" so the military warned him, and gave him a date to resign before, but again he refused. and the rest went down as history.


If he refused then you keep trying and keep protesting peacefully.

What the military did was tyranny. No amount of excuses trotted out for Sissy’s actions justify them.

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## Elgamd

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> If he refused then you keep trying and keep protesting peacefully.
> 
> What the military did was tyranny. No amount of excuses trotted out for Sissy’s actions justify them.


If we kept going longer, a gigantic civil war would have started.
MB during this time were litearly going to the protests, fighting them and people were dying. 
some nation could just sent weapons to one side, and made things worse.


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## The SC

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> If he refused then you keep trying and keep protesting peacefully.
> 
> What the military did was tyranny. No amount of excuses trotted out for Sissy’s actions justify them.



Is almost 30 million Egyptians going to the street to authorize Sisi, is what you call tyranny and a coup ..you know a demonstration of 30 million like that one did not take place in the history of any nation ever and you still call it a coup.. please revise your thoughts and regards to you..

So to stay on topic here.. what is your take as a PDF Veteran on Egypt getting and manufacturing the JF-17 blk III?


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