# Rustam e hind wrestler, the giant of Gujranwala Raheem Baksh Sultaniwala



## Crusher

*Born in 1864 in Gujranwala town, Rahim’s family originally hailed from Kashmir but moved to the plains in the 1820s when his grandfather, Umar Baksh Pahelwan (died 1840), came under the patronage of the province’s Sikh governor, Hari Singh Nalwa. On Nalwa’s reassignment to the North-West-Frontier Province, Umar Baksh accompanied his patron and resettled his family in the governor’s native town of Gujranwala.* Umar Baksh’s wrestling career continued for a few years after Hari Singh’s death in 1837. His son, Sultan Pahelwan entered into the wrestling fraternity under the patronage of the Sikh court of Lahore around 1840.

Ghulam Pahelwan’s most successful pupil was Rahim Baksh Sultaniwala. Though born in Gujranwala, Rahim’s association with Ghulam meant that he was reared in his akhara in Amritsar.

Under his master’s watchful eye, Rahim developed a superb physical build; *in his heyday he was the picture of a veritable giant, standing almost seven feet tall and weighing close to 300 pounds. To strike fear into his opponents, he would often enter the arena covered from head to toe in vermillion, appearing like a fearsome red demon arisen from the underworld.




*

Between 1902 and 1918, Rahim fought, and mostly won, his bouts against Khalifa Bhai Madho Singh (ustad of the Great Gama), Sain Pahelwan, Rajab, Kala Partapa, Gora Partapa, Mehanni Reniwala, Khalifa Meraj Din, Biddo Pahelwan and Channan Qasai.

*Rahim’s most formidable rival in this period was the Great Gama with whom he clashed four times.* They first met in 1902 during a wrestling festival in the state of Junagarh. Rahim enjoyed the rank of chief court wrestler from amongst the maharaja’s stable of sixty pahelwans. Towering over Gama, who stood five-feet-seven-inches, Rahim entered the arena as the clear favourite. The contest raged for almost an hour before a draw was eventually declared. The return match in 1906 was held at Indore at the invitation of Sivaji Rao Holkar. The two pahelwans were evenly matched, and after two hours of skilful and thrilling grappling, the bout ended in a draw once again.

They met a third time several months later at Lahore. They clashed for two hours but the issue remained undecided. Their fourth and final meeting took place in December 1910 at Allahabad. The huge Rahim was out for blood, his body covered in red powder. At first Rahim evaded Gama's favourite shoulder-throw (“dhobi pat”) but his evasive tactics soon became less effective. Gama managed to score with the throw but was unable to secure a pin. Coming to grips again, Gama hoisted Rahim up by a crotch hold, turned him, and was starting to pin when Rahim scissored his arm and extricated himself. After two-and-a-half-hours of epic wrestling, Rahim’s rib broke, forcing him to concede the fight to Gama. This rib injury also forced Rahim to forfeit the match against Gama’s brother, Imam Baksh, at Kohlapur in 1918.

Rahim spent most of his later life in the princely states of Indore, Kohlapur, Junagarh, Murshidabad, Patiala and Datia. *In recognition of his services to the sport, the nawab of Bahawalpur granted him a life pension of one hundred rupees per month. In a career spanning over half a century, Rahim fought over three hundred bouts, lost maybe six decisions, but was never pinned.*

n 1926, Goonga Pahelwan (right) insisted on having a clash with Rahim who, at 52, was double his age. The old giant threw Goonga with an outside leg throw (‘bahrli tang’), causing one of the greatest upsets of the century. Inspired by the outcome, a local punjabi poet composed the following verse (translated in english) in praise of the victor:

*‘O Rahim pinned Goonga and paid him in his own coin; Goonga bought trouble by awakening the sleeping lion!’*

Despite sustaining several serious injuries, Rahim enjoyed perhaps the longest competitive career of any pahelwan. *In his last serious public engagement at Wazirabad in 1936, the 72-year-old defeated a 28-year-old Canadian wrestler named Hudson with a body-lift and throw (‘ukher’). It was all over in just three minutes.* The giant from Gujranwala died in August 1942 in his native town.

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## Crusher

View attachment 564871


*Born in 1864 in Gujranwala town, Rahim’s family originally hailed from Kashmir but moved to the plains in the 1820s when his grandfather, Umar Baksh Pahelwan (died 1840), came under the patronage of the province’s Sikh governor, Hari Singh Nalwa. On Nalwa’s reassignment to the North-West-Frontier Province, Umar Baksh accompanied his patron and resettled his family in the governor’s native town of Gujranwala.* Umar Baksh’s wrestling career continued for a few years after Hari Singh’s death in 1837. His son, Sultan Pahelwan entered into the wrestling fraternity under the patronage of the Sikh court of Lahore around 1840.

Ghulam Pahelwan’s most successful pupil was Rahim Baksh Sultaniwala. Though born in Gujranwala, Rahim’s association with Ghulam meant that he was reared in his akhara in Amritsar.

Under his master’s watchful eye, Rahim developed a superb physical build; *in his heyday he was the picture of a veritable giant, standing almost seven feet tall and weighing close to 300 pounds. To strike fear into his opponents, he would often enter the arena covered from head to toe in vermillion, appearing like a fearsome red demon arisen from the underworld.

View attachment 564872
*

Between 1902 and 1918, Rahim fought, and mostly won, his bouts against Khalifa Bhai Madho Singh (ustad of the Great Gama), Sain Pahelwan, Rajab, Kala Partapa, Gora Partapa, Mehanni Reniwala, Khalifa Meraj Din, Biddo Pahelwan and Channan Qasai.

*Rahim’s most formidable rival in this period was the Great Gama with whom he clashed four times.* They first met in 1902 during a wrestling festival in the state of Junagarh. Rahim enjoyed the rank of chief court wrestler from amongst the maharaja’s stable of sixty pahelwans. Towering over Gama, who stood five-feet-seven-inches, Rahim entered the arena as the clear favourite. The contest raged for almost an hour before a draw was eventually declared. The return match in 1906 was held at Indore at the invitation of Sivaji Rao Holkar. The two pahelwans were evenly matched, and after two hours of skilful and thrilling grappling, the bout ended in a draw once again.

They met a third time several months later at Lahore. They clashed for two hours but the issue remained undecided. Their fourth and final meeting took place in December 1910 at Allahabad. The huge Rahim was out for blood, his body covered in red powder. At first Rahim evaded Gama's favourite shoulder-throw (“dhobi pat”) but his evasive tactics soon became less effective. Gama managed to score with the throw but was unable to secure a pin. Coming to grips again, Gama hoisted Rahim up by a crotch hold, turned him, and was starting to pin when Rahim scissored his arm and extricated himself. After two-and-a-half-hours of epic wrestling, Rahim’s rib broke, forcing him to concede the fight to Gama. This rib injury also forced Rahim to forfeit the match against Gama’s brother, Imam Baksh, at Kohlapur in 1918.

Rahim spent most of his later life in the princely states of Indore, Kohlapur, Junagarh, Murshidabad, Patiala and Datia. *In recognition of his services to the sport, the nawab of Bahawalpur granted him a life pension of one hundred rupees per month. In a career spanning over half a century, Rahim fought over three hundred bouts, lost maybe six decisions, but was never pinned.*

n 1926, Goonga Pahelwan (right) insisted on having a clash with Rahim who, at 52, was double his age. The old giant threw Goonga with an outside leg throw (‘bahrli tang’), causing one of the greatest upsets of the century. Inspired by the outcome, a local punjabi poet composed the following verse (translated in english) in praise of the victor:

*‘O Rahim pinned Goonga and paid him in his own coin; Goonga bought trouble by awakening the sleeping lion!’*

Despite sustaining several serious injuries, Rahim enjoyed perhaps the longest competitive career of any pahelwan. *In his last serious public engagement at Wazirabad in 1936, the 72-year-old defeated a 28-year-old Canadian wrestler named Hudson with a body-lift and throw (‘ukher’). It was all over in just three minutes.* The giant from Gujranwala died in August 1942 in his native town.

Source: http://www.pahelwani.com/#/rahim-sultaniwala/4544812222

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## Crusher

*Born in 1864 in Gujranwala town, Rahim’s family originally hailed from Kashmir but moved to the plains in the 1820s when his grandfather, Umar Baksh Pahelwan (died 1840), came under the patronage of the province’s Sikh governor, Hari Singh Nalwa. On Nalwa’s reassignment to the North-West-Frontier Province, Umar Baksh accompanied his patron and resettled his family in the governor’s native town of Gujranwala.* Umar Baksh’s wrestling career continued for a few years after Hari Singh’s death in 1837. His son, Baba Sultan Pahelwan entered into the wrestling fraternity under the patronage of the Sikh court of Lahore around 1840.

Ghulam Pahelwan’s most successful pupil was Rahim Baksh Sultaniwala. Though born in Gujranwala, Rahim’s association with Ghulam meant that he was reared in his akhara in Amritsar.

Under his master’s watchful eye, Rahim developed a superb physical build; *in his heyday he was the picture of a veritable giant, standing almost seven feet tall and weighing close to 300 pounds. To strike fear into his opponents, he would often enter the arena covered from head to toe in vermillion, appearing like a fearsome red demon arisen from the underworld.
*





Between 1902 and 1918, Rahim fought, and mostly won, his bouts against Khalifa Bhai Madho Singh (ustad of the Great Gama), Sain Pahelwan, Rajab, Kala Partapa, Gora Partapa, Mehanni Reniwala, Khalifa Meraj Din, Biddo Pahelwan and Channan Qasai.

*Rahim’s most formidable rival in this period was the Great Gama with whom he clashed four times.* They first met in 1902 during a wrestling festival in the state of Junagarh. Rahim enjoyed the rank of chief court wrestler from amongst the maharaja’s stable of sixty pahelwans. Towering over Gama, who stood five-feet-seven-inches, Rahim entered the arena as the clear favourite. The contest raged for almost an hour before a draw was eventually declared. The return match in 1906 was held at Indore at the invitation of Sivaji Rao Holkar. The two pahelwans were evenly matched, and after two hours of skilful and thrilling grappling, the bout ended in a draw once again.

They met a third time several months later at Lahore. They clashed for two hours but the issue remained undecided. Their fourth and final meeting took place in December 1910 at Allahabad. The huge Rahim was out for blood, his body covered in red powder. At first Rahim evaded Gama's favourite shoulder-throw (“dhobi pat”) but his evasive tactics soon became less effective. Gama managed to score with the throw but was unable to secure a pin. Coming to grips again, Gama hoisted Rahim up by a crotch hold, turned him, and was starting to pin when Rahim scissored his arm and extricated himself. After two-and-a-half-hours of epic wrestling, Rahim’s rib broke, forcing him to concede the fight to Gama. This rib injury also forced Rahim to forfeit the match against Gama’s brother, Imam Baksh, at Kohlapur in 1918.

Rahim spent most of his later life in the princely states of Indore, Kohlapur, Junagarh, Murshidabad, Patiala and Datia. *In recognition of his services to the sport, the nawab of Bahawalpur granted him a life pension of one hundred rupees per month. In a career spanning over half a century, Rahim fought over three hundred bouts, lost maybe six decisions, but was never pinned.*

n 1926, Goonga Pahelwan insisted on having a clash with Rahim who, at 52, was double his age. The old giant threw Goonga with an outside leg throw (‘bahrli tang’), causing one of the greatest upsets of the century. Inspired by the outcome, a local punjabi poet composed the following verse (translated in english) in praise of the victor:

*‘O Rahim pinned Goonga and paid him in his own coin; Goonga bought trouble by awakening the sleeping lion!’*

Despite sustaining several serious injuries, Rahim enjoyed perhaps the longest competitive career of any pahelwan. *In his last serious public engagement at Wazirabad in 1936, the 72-year-old defeated a 28-year-old Canadian wrestler named Hudson with a body-lift and throw (‘ukher’). It was all over in just three minutes.* The giant from Gujranwala died in August 1942 in his native town.

Source: http://www.pahelwani.com/#/rahim-sultaniwala/4544812222

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## Crusher



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## Whirling_dervesh

Almost all these pehelwans seem to be ethnic kashmiris. Why did they have monopoly? Anyone know?


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## Crusher

Whirling_dervesh said:


> Almost all these pehelwans seem to be ethnic kashmiris. Why did they have monopoly? Anyone know?



But the modern Kashmiri people look very "fragile" from physique wise. I personally believe these pehlwans had mixed ancestries so they were not pure "kashmiri" as these pehlwan families used to intermarry only among other pehlwan families irrespective of their ethnicities and they used to roam in various kingdoms ranging from Afghanistan to deep India. And their ancestries were all mixed, it was a common occurrence for a "kashmiri" pehlwan from Gujranwala to marry into a pehlwan family of Amritsar, Multan or some other hub of wrestler families which were not necessarily "kashmiri".


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## M. Sarmad

Simurgh said:


> *Rahim’s most formidable rival in this period was the Great Gama with whom he clashed four times.* They first met in 1902 during a wrestling festival in the state of Junagarh. Rahim enjoyed the rank of chief court wrestler from amongst the maharaja’s stable of sixty pahelwans. Towering over Gama, who stood five-feet-seven-inches, Rahim entered the arena as the clear favourite. The contest raged for almost an hour before a draw was eventually declared. The return match in 1906 was held at Indore at the invitation of Sivaji Rao Holkar. The two pahelwans were evenly matched, and after two hours of skilful and thrilling grappling, the bout ended in a draw once again.
> 
> They met a third time several months later at Lahore. They clashed for two hours but the issue remained undecided. Their fourth and final meeting took place in December 1910 at Allahabad. The huge Rahim was out for blood, his body covered in red powder. At first Rahim evaded Gama's favourite shoulder-throw (“dhobi pat”) but his evasive tactics soon became less effective. Gama managed to score with the throw but was unable to secure a pin. Coming to grips again, Gama hoisted Rahim up by a crotch hold, turned him, and was starting to pin when Rahim scissored his arm and extricated himself. After two-and-a-half-hours of epic wrestling, Rahim’s rib broke, forcing him to concede the fight to Gama. This rib injury also forced Rahim to forfeit the match against Gama’s brother, Imam Baksh, at Kohlapur in 1918.



_Rahim_ was 46 years old and near the end of his career when Gama defeated him in 1910. (_Gama_ was 15 years younger than him).

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## Crusher

M. Sarmad said:


> _Rahim_ was 46 years old and near the end of his career when Gama defeated him in 1910. (_Gama_ was 15 years younger than him).



But Gama couldn't pin him down, Raheem got his rib broken after two hours wrestling bout and Gama won because of technical knock out.

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## Crusher

@Dubious , can you delete this thread, I seem to have posted this thread three times by mistake.


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## Crusher

@Dubious , can you delete this thread, I seem to have posted this thread three times by mistake.

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## M. Sarmad

Simurgh said:


> But Gama couldn't pin him down, Raheem got his rib broken after two hours wrestling bout and Gama won because of technical knock out.



No doubt, Rahim who had never been pinned in his entire career, has had a very impressive and distinguished career. Gama, Rahim and Imam Bukhsh were the greatest wrestlers we ever had.

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## Crusher

M. Sarmad said:


> No doubt, Rahim who had never been pinned in his entire career, has had very impressive and distinguished career. Gama, Rahim and Imam Bukhsh were the greatest wrestlers we ever had.



I would include "Goonga pehlwan" of Pasroor/Sialkot too in the list.

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## B.K.N

Whirling_dervesh said:


> Almost all these pehelwans seem to be ethnic kashmiris. Why did they have monopoly? Anyone know?



these sports have nothing to do with their ancestories but it is about exposure to some specific sport
When people see some of their family member or someone from niehborhood successful in some sport or some other thing then a lot of others start copying the successful person
One big reason maybe for this sport training starts from childhood so taking part in it is only possible if you have some akhara in nieghborhood
so availability of facilities is one major reason

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## Thorough Pro

three separate threads on the same topic?


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## Crusher

Brass Knuckles said:


> t*hese sports have nothing to do with their ancestories* but it is about exposure to some specific sport
> When people see some of their family member or someone from niehborhood successful in some sport or some other thing then a lot of others start copying the successful person
> One big reason maybe for this sport training starts from childhood so taking part in it is only possible if you have some akhara in nieghborhood
> so availability of facilities is one major reason



Absolutely agree with you, I don't know why some people have "fetish" about the "ancestry" (even if it is distant) of an athlete rather than looking at that athlete as an individual who rose to fame due to his "own" hard work and training starting from childhood under experts of his chosen sport. People just excel in field in which they put their sweat and blood, achievement in sports is always an individual achievement. Just because Usan Bolt became world record holder as the fastest man on earth doesn't mean that every "Jamaican" is going to be second Usan Bolt, it doesn't happen this way.
In case of some Kashmiri families dominating the wrestling field in the 19th and 20th century, it was purely coincidence that some handful of Kashmiri families developed a passion for wrestling and their kids were fascinated with this sport and put their sweat and blood to achieve the excellence in this field, it had nothing to do with their "kashmiri" ancestry but depended entirely on their individual family histories. Goonga pehlwan was a formidable wrestler from Pasroor Sialkot and he was not Kashmiri but belonged to "Faqeer" bradari of his village.

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## Crusher

Thorough Pro said:


> three separate threads on the same topic?


It was mistake by me, I have tagged the mod @Dubious on this thread to delete it because it is redundant.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

I heard that once; most Punjabi villages fielded a team of Pehelwans, I wonder why our martial sports died out so rapidly.

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## B.K.N

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I heard that once; most Punjabi villages fielded a team of Pehelwans, I wonder why our martial sports died out so rapidly.



Not true
But in past local games like kabadi and lambi khed etc were popular
These games are not dead but are still played mostly at melas





Not a lot of men would like to play something like this dressed like them this may be the reason why these games are not popular


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## khanmubashir

The Punjabi mountain


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## Crusher

Brass Knuckles said:


> Not true
> But in past local games like kabadi and lambi khed etc were popular
> These games are not dead but are still played mostly at melas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a lot of men would like to play something like this dressed like them this may be the reason why these games are not popular



Did you play this game which was called "Badi" (probably distortion of kabadi) in our areas in my childhood in 80s and 90s, I think west of Gujranwala it is called "wanju" or "vanju". It was a great game to test one's agilitiy, speed and reflexes, we used to play it quite frequently in our childhood.


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## B.K.N

Simurgh said:


> Did you play this game which was called "



Yes I've played
this is a team game
One team stands in columns and other have to cross these columns if even one player is successful in returning to starting position without being touched by any player of opponent team than game is over
and aggressor team wins
Played this game last time about 7 or 8 years ago
and never knew this word badi originated from kabadi we used to prounce it as body

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## B.K.N

Simurgh said:


> Did you play this game which was called "Badi"



What other games are played in your area


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## Crusher

Brass Knuckles said:


> What other games are played in your area



I have really forgotten now, I played most of local games during my childhood in 80s and early 90s, many of them have even got extinct now. I used to play "sua" with my friends, langra sher, bandar killa, bara tain, chor sipahi, kaudian gajji chara, badi, latu, bantay etc. I was a good wrestler too in my childhood in 80s, I used to pin down my friends easily but as I grew up I lost my wrestling strength, might have something to do with genetics.

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## hussain0216

Simurgh said:


>



This picture is so freaking weird!


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## CodeforFood

hussain0216 said:


> This picture is so freaking weird!


especially the guy laying down. actually the guys hanging like monkeys as well tbh. smh. kinky to say the least.


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## Crusher

Yes for mummy daddy kids born outside of Pakistan these pictures are "strange" and "weird" looking but for someone who is born and grown up in the indigenous culture of central Punjab Pakistan, these are pretty normal and elegant pictures. That is why I feel that "Pakistanis" born and grown up outside of Pakistan are not fit to integrate in Pakistan's indigenous society. This is our culture and history and we are proud of every bit of it.

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## CodeforFood

Simurgh said:


> Yes for mummy daddy kids born outside of Pakistan these pictures are "strange" and "weird" looking but for someone who is born and grown up in the indigenous culture of central Punjab Pakistan, these are pretty normal and elegant pictures. That is why I feel that "Pakistanis" born and grown up outside of Pakistan are not fit to integrate in Pakistan's indigenous society. This is our culture and history and we are proud of every bit of it.


I was born and raised in Pakistan and spent most of my life in Pakistan. You need to stop assuming and look at the picture and try to understand the joke. If this is difficult to understand I mean get some sense of humor. It will have a good effect on you.


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## zulu

Support on govt level even back then they were supported by different states (rajwaray ).Anyone knows the name the book written by Akhtar hussain Sheikh who used to write about pehlwans in sarghuzhast digest back in 90's??on this website i check they dont have info about my favorite kalia jalalpuri 

Also check this guy channel he put many videos about different pehalwans
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzI7Bku0fwpj3R7nm8eKC0w


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## Crusher

CodeforFood said:


> I was born and raised in Pakistan and spent most of my life in Pakistan. You need to stop assuming and look at the picture and try to understand the joke. If this is difficult to understand I mean get some sense of humor. It will have a good effect on you.



You may be born and raised in Pakistan but you certainly have to sense of our indigenous popular culture and history.

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## TurkshilButt786

Simurgh said:


> But the modern Kashmiri people look very "fragile" from physique wise. I personally believe these pehlwans had mixed ancestries so they were not pure "kashmiri" as these pehlwan families used to intermarry only among other pehlwan families irrespective of their ethnicities and they used to roam in various kingdoms ranging from Afghanistan to deep India. And their ancestries were all mixed, it was a common occurrence for a "kashmiri" pehlwan from Gujranwala to marry into a pehlwan family of Amritsar, Multan or some other hub of wrestler families which were not necessarily "kashmiri".



I have looked at your other posts on this thread which are quite logical and were a good read but I completely disagree with your comment on the modern Kashmiri people looking very fragile. I am not sure if you're referring to the Kashmiris from Kashmir Valley in India or Kashmiris settled in Punjab, Pakistan.
But if you look at the Butt/Kashmiris of Punjab then 
The current Wrestling Champion of Pakistan with 2 Commonwealth Golds is Inam Butt
The current best Weightlifter of Pakistan is Muhammad Nooh Butt (Bronze in Commonwealth)
The current best Kabbadi raider after Babbar Gujjar is Heera Butt
All of them are of Kashmiri descent so I am not sure where you got this concept of modern Kashmiris being fragile? I think currently it is the Kashmiris of Gujranwala that are keeping the Punjabi Riwaj of Pehalwani alive.
As for marrying into other ethnicities, It is reported that Gama Pehalwan had a second wife in Gujrat but being from the Kashmiri community what I have felt is that Kashmiris from Gujranwala & also Amritsar (back in the day) are very strict on not marrying outside Kashmiris.
It's just the diet and mindset I believe that has made the difference between Kashmiris from the valley and Punjab. Diet in Punjab is very high in Saturated fat such as Ghee, Paya also Kashmiris from the valley are believed to be very disciplined and non-aggressive individuals which I feel is due to a very heavy sufi influence but you don't see such traits in majority of the Punjabis of Kashmiri descent 
Peace!


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## Crusher

TurkshilButt786 said:


> I have looked at your other posts on this thread which are quite logical and were a good read but I completely disagree with your comment on the modern Kashmiri people looking very fragile. I am not sure if you're referring to the Kashmiris from Kashmir Valley in India or Kashmiris settled in Punjab, Pakistan.
> But if you look at the Butt/Kashmiris of Punjab then
> The current Wrestling Champion of Pakistan with 2 Commonwealth Golds is Inam Butt
> The current best Weightlifter of Pakistan is Muhammad Nooh Butt (Bronze in Commonwealth)
> The current best Kabbadi raider after Babbar Gujjar is Heera Butt
> All of them are of Kashmiri descent so I am not sure where you got this concept of modern Kashmiris being fragile? I think currently it is the Kashmiris of Gujranwala that are keeping the Punjabi Riwaj of Pehalwani alive.
> As for marrying into other ethnicities, It is reported that Gama Pehalwan had a second wife in Gujrat but being from the Kashmiri community what I have felt is that Kashmiris from Gujranwala & also Amritsar (back in the day) are very strict on not marrying outside Kashmiris.
> It's just the diet and mindset I believe that has made the difference between Kashmiris from the valley and Punjab. Diet in Punjab is very high in Saturated fat such as Ghee, Paya also Kashmiris from the valley are believed to be very disciplined and non-aggressive individuals which I feel is due to a very heavy sufi influence but you don't see such traits in majority of the Punjabis of Kashmiri descent
> Peace!



Just one answer, Inam Butt, Nooh Butt and Heera Butt don't look like Kashmiris from "Kashmir valley" even remotely speaking. If they have Kashmiri ancestry then it is definitely diluted in them. Even in Gujranwala too, there are two types of Kashmiris, the one who look like "slander fragile" looking and "peaceful" like the Kashmiris of Kashmir valley and the other goup "sturdy heavy" looking Kashmiris which are definitely Kashmiris of category one plus mixed with something else most probably either with local punjabis or with people of areas of Kashmir outside of Kashmir valley probably modern Azad Kashmir or even Jammu areas where there is significant concentration of "sturdy" looking people. Also back in the day, a "Kashmiri" settling in Punjab was NOT always supposed to be a "pure Kashmiri" originating "strictly" from "Kashmir valley" but many guys who were from neighboring areas of Kashmir like modern Azad Kashmir and greater Jammu areas who were even slightly mixed with Kashmiris of Kashmir valley also used to identify as full "Kashmiris" in Punjab. Believe it or not, but Kashmiris of Punjab predominantly don't look like the Kashmiris of the valley and there is a reason behind it because most of them have only "diluted Kashmiri" ancestries and some might not have even "any genetic ancestry" from the Kashmiris of the Kashmir valley.

I mean a Kashmiri from Gujranwala strongly believes in "vengeance" and "revenge" which is a trait almost absent from the "Kashmiris" of the Kashmir valley who look to me "peaceful" (basically weak) type of people, probably due to their limited "physical strength" in those fragile looking bodies they carry, compared to the "sturdy" looking "angry" and "not so peaceful"  type of kashmiris of Gujranwala or Lahore areas .


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## TurkshilButt786

TurkshilButt786 said:


> ical and were a good read but I completely disagree with your comment on the modern Kashmiri people looking very fragile. I am not sure if you're referring to the Kashmiris from Kashmir Valley in India or Kashmiris settled in Punja





Simurgh said:


> Just one answer, Inam Butt, Nooh Butt and Heera Butt don't look like Kashmiris from "Kashmir valley" even remotely speaking. If they have Kashmiri ancestry then it is definitely diluted in them. Even in Gujranwala too, there are two types of Kashmiris, the one who look like "slander fragile" looking and "peaceful" like the Kashmiris of Kashmir valley and the other goup "sturdy heavy" looking Kashmiris which are definitely Kashmiris of category one plus mixed with something else most probably either with local punjabis or with people of areas of Kashmir outside of Kashmir valley probably modern Azad Kashmir or even Jammu areas where there is significant concentration of "sturdy" looking people. Also back in the day, a "Kashmiri" settling in Punjab was NOT always supposed to be a "pure Kashmiri" originating "strictly" from "Kashmir valley" but many guys who were from neighboring areas of Kashmir like modern Azad Kashmir and greater Jammu areas who were even slightly mixed with Kashmiris of Kashmir valley also used to identify as full "Kashmiris" in Punjab. Believe it or not, but Kashmiris of Punjab predominantly don't look like the Kashmiris of the valley and there is a reason behind it because most of them have only "diluted Kashmiri" ancestries and some might not have even "any genetic ancestry" from the Kashmiris of the Kashmir valley.
> 
> I mean a Kashmiri from Gujranwala strongly believes in "vengeance" and "revenge" which is a trait almost absent from the "Kashmiris" of the Kashmir valley who look to me "peaceful" (basically weak) type of people, probably due to their limited "physical strength" in those fragile looking bodies they carry, compared to the "sturdy" looking "angry" and "not so peaceful"  type of kashmiris of Gujranwala or Lahore areas .



I understand the point that you made. Yes a lot of Kashmiris in Gujranwala believe in the traits that you have mentioned. 
To answer you firstly, I think it is a misconception we have that all Kashmiris from the Kashmir Valley are fair skinned and look different to Punjabis but what I have been observing more and more especially from posts coming from IOK over the years of people living there is that a lot of them really just look like normal Punjabis particularly in areas like Srinagar so all these Kashmiris of Punjab you think are diluted might actually not be diluted. 
I am from the Kashmiri community of Gujranwala myself and my Dad was brought up in the most badass suburbs of Gujranwala dominated by Kashmiris so what I have seen from them is that they just don’t marry outside their biradari unlike the parey likhey Kashmiris of say Lahore. 
As for looking like Kashmiris, well Inam and Heera don’t but then again as I said a lot of Kashmiris from the Valley do not look like the preconceived “Kashmiri” look we have in mind too. Nooh Butt does not look like a Punjabi though. Also Zubair Jhara, Tipu Truckanwala/Chand Pehalwan, Hamza Butt Pehalwan all of these don’t look Punjabi too so Kashmiris can have different looking people among them.
Anyways I respect your points. I don’t think there’s any evidence to back it but who knows you might be true. I am myself puzzled at why there’s such a big difference between the two and how did so diplomatic Kangri Pehalwan Peaceful lads turn into Blunt Short tempered Pehalwans. 
Just out of curiosity though, what is your background? Cheers


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## Crusher

TurkshilButt786 said:


> I understand the point that you made. Yes a lot of Kashmiris in Gujranwala believe in the traits that you have mentioned.
> To answer you firstly, I think it is a misconception we have that all Kashmiris from the Kashmir Valley are fair skinned and look different to Punjabis but what I have been observing more and more especially from posts coming from IOK over the years of people living there is that a lot of them really just look like normal Punjabis particularly in areas like Srinagar so all these Kashmiris of Punjab you think are diluted might actually not be diluted.
> I am from the Kashmiri community of Gujranwala myself and my Dad was brought up in the most badass suburbs of Gujranwala dominated by Kashmiris so what I have seen from them is that they just don’t marry outside their biradari unlike the parey likhey Kashmiris of say Lahore.
> As for looking like Kashmiris, well Inam and Heera don’t but then again as I said a lot of Kashmiris from the Valley do not look like the preconceived “Kashmiri” look we have in mind too. Nooh Butt does not look like a Punjabi though. Also Zubair Jhara, Tipu Truckanwala/Chand Pehalwan, Hamza Butt Pehalwan all of these don’t look Punjabi too so Kashmiris can have different looking people among them.
> Anyways I respect your points. I don’t think there’s any evidence to back it but who knows you might be true. I am myself puzzled at why there’s such a big difference between the two and how did so diplomatic Kangri Pehalwan Peaceful lads turn into Blunt Short tempered Pehalwans.
> Just out of curiosity though, what is your background? Cheers



This "Kashmiri Butt" from Gujranwala definitely looks like the stereotypical Kashmiris of Kashmir valley,







Now this is also "Kashmiri Butt" from Gujranwala, but he definitely doesn't look like a Kashmiri from Kashmir valley, this guy's "kashmiri" ancestry is definitely diluted, he looks to me like any other Gujranwaliya.






There is even a third type of "Kashmiri Butt" also in Gujrawala like this guy,






This guy's acestors might not have been Kashmiri but rather from areas north of Kashmir, he looks more like someone from northern Pakistan than Kashmir. So in his case his Kashmiri ancestry is diluted with some mixing from the northern Pakistan.

So we see all identify as "Kashmiri" in Gujranwala and probably would "intermarry" too in each other's family due to same "Kashmiri Bradari" not knowing about the "diluted" nature of one another's Kashmiri ancestries.

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## lastofthepatriots

My great grandmother was Kashmiri. It definitely showed in all of my grandfathers(dadkay).

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## TurkshilButt786

Simurgh said:


> This "Kashmiri Butt" from Gujranwala definitely looks like the stereotypical Kashmiris of Kashmir valley,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now this is also "Kashmiri Butt" from Gujranwala, but he definitely doesn't look like a Kashmiri from Kashmir valley, this guy's "kashmiri" ancestry is definitely diluted, he looks to me like any other Gujranwaliya.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is even a third type of "Kashmiri Butt" also in Gujrawala like this guy,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This guy's acestors might not have been Kashmiri but rather from areas north of Kashmir, he looks more like someone from northern Pakistan than Kashmir. So in his case his Kashmiri ancestry is diluted with some mixing from the northern Pakistan.
> 
> So we see all identify as "Kashmiri" in Gujranwala and probably would "intermarry" too in each other's family due to same "Kashmiri Bradari" not knowing about the "diluted" nature of one another's Kashmiri ancestries.



You basically have no evidence to prove anything that you're saying. A lot of Kashmiris from the valley do look just like normal North Indian as I said. I'm from the same community you're talking about mate. Anyways, I initially posted due to your comment that Kashmiris were good pehalwan because maybe they were mixed with other races which I felt was a bit derogatory. Kashmiris have a glorious history before the Mughals came (We established big Kingdoms and even ruled areas of Punjab for a long time, you can read authentic history and you'll know; also we were the last Northern state to be conquered by the Mughals after a long resistance) but yes since then Kashmiris from the Valley don't have much martial characteristics and there are some theories on how this happened. I personally believe it’s the change in diet, surroundings & mentality that has brought about a change in a lot of Kashmiris of Punjab rather than intermixture with other races though I am not denying that it would not have happened at all. Some Kashmiri Butt probably however were not affected by these changes and remained the same (Temper and Strength wise)

Anyways the pictures you shared; even the 1st one looks quite Punjabi to me. Maybe you haven't met many Kashmiris.
These two blokes below are from Gujranwala and look like Kashmiris from the Valley while at the same time they've got Pehalwan like physiques. I can show you so many more but don't want to share pics of people I know

Para Butt Singer (Famous for Butt Da Vair song)





Hamza Butt Pehalwan (Comes on TV often, came on Jeeto Pakistan Gujranwala special)





Peace!


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## Crusher

TurkshilButt786 said:


> You basically have no evidence to prove anything that you're saying.* A lot of Kashmiris from the valley do look just like normal North Indian as I said............*
> Peace!



Bye bye indian gangu troll, I already thought your ID name looks crazy, sending you to the hell of ignore list where you can party with your so-called "north" and "south" indian gangu bros who all belong there

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## Maarkhoor

Simurgh said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


Quite gayish picture....


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## TurkshilButt786

Simurgh said:


> Bye bye indian troll, I already thought your ID name looks crazy, sending you to the hell of ignore list where you can party with your so-called "north" and "south" indian bros who all belong there



Lol very mature man. Just because you lost the debate you start bullshitting around. 
North Indians = Punjabis, Haryanvi who more or less just look like Pakistani Punjabis/Potoharis. 
Anyways I won’t reply further as there’s no point arguing with you & no I’m not a Indian.


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## ghazi52




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## Talwar e Pakistan

TurkshilButt786 said:


> Lol very mature man. Just because you lost the debate you start bullshitting around.
> North Indians = Punjabis, Haryanvi who more or less just look like Pakistani Punjabis/Potoharis.
> Anyways I won’t reply further as there’s no point arguing with you & no I’m not a Indian.


Oh yes, add Pashtuns and Baloch to the list of North Indians as well.

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## Kabira

Simurgh said:


> Bye bye indian gangu troll, I already thought your ID name looks crazy, sending you to the hell of ignore list where you can party with your so-called "north" and "south" indian gangu bros who all belong there



Gangu teli gone mad. Even in 16th century someone noticed that Kashmiris might have jew origins along with pashtuns. I think it was French traveller. 

Its not surprised after few centuries Kashmiris who migrated to punjab also got some other genes. Like the Kashmiris in valley themselves have mixed with people from further north and south of then over the centuries.

Its weird, my cousin friend who is butt from Gujrat/Bhimber have ginger hair and very light skin. But he also have sturdy look unlike Kashmiris in valley who tend to have longer face and sharper features.

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## Crusher

Kabira said:


> ........................
> *Its weird, my cousin friend who is butt from Gujrat/Bhimber have ginger hair and very light skin. But he also have sturdy look unlike Kashmiris in valley* who tend to have longer face and sharper features.



I have a feeling that there were geographically "many different" types of Kashmiris throughout the history in the geographic vicinity of the region called Kashmir kingdom in ancient texts and it might not have been restricted only to "Kashmir valley" of today but extended further west towards ancient Gandhara, as both were very closely related kingdoms and allies throughout the history. It is quite possible that more "lighter" skinned sturdy bodied Kashmiris in Punjab could be "indirect" immigrants to Punjab, I mean not directly from Kashmir valley to Punjab but rather from Kashmir valley to some region "X" to Punjab. And these "indirect" Kashmiri immigrants might have mixed with local populations of their "X" regions before arriving in Punjab. I agree with you "Kashmir valley people" at least the current ones are majority "slender" bodied, longer narrower faces and noses. They do have sturdy, broader faced Kashmiris in Kashmir valley but they are currently in minority compared to the slender narrow faced majority there.

Take a look at thsi picture,







Other than Sabzar Bhat and Ishfaq Dar, all others have that typical narrow faces that are trademark of Kashmiris in Kashmir valley these days. Only the two guys Sabzar Bhat and Ishfaq Dar have heavier broader faces and are somewhat sturdier (in comparison to the others in the above picture) that are more similar to general "indus valley" populations (Punjabis, Sindhis, Baloch, southern Pashtuns) where broader faces are definitely the majority.

There is however one possibility that most Kashmiris were like Sabzar Bhat and Ishfaq Dar a couple of centuries ago but the major earth quakes, famines and outward migrations in the 19th century (1800s) have caused the drift that we observe among Kashmiris of the Kashmir valley, some documents from 1800s point that during 1800 to 1850 AD the population of Kashmir valley was reduced to 1/4 th of its size before 1800 AD due to a major earth quake, famines and outward migrations during this period, that is a huge drift in terms of population and certain traits might been "lost" considerably among the Kashmiris of the Kashmir valley and the modern inhabitants of Kashmir valley just represents the gene-pool of those 1/4 survived population during 1800 to 1850 AD. Your cousin's friends family might have come to punjab perhaps before 1800 AD. Irrespective of the general BS on internet regarding Kashmiris movement to Punjab, many Kashmir moved to Punjab as early as during 1700s, even an "information board" in front of Allam Iqbal's ancestral home in Sialkot reads that his ancestors moved to Sialkot from Kashmir in 1752 that is well before the "perverted" late 1800s during dogra rule when a lot of Kashmiris migrated to Punjab particularly to Amritsar and Lahore urban settlements.
Here is the picture where the board in front of Iqbal ancestral house in Sialkot reads that his family came from Kashmir to Sialkot city in 1752, that is a good century before his birth in 1877.





As the case of Raheem Bakhsh and Allama Iqbal families show that many Kashmiris in Sailkot, Gujranwala, Gujrat and Rawalpindi have been some of the earliest immigrants from Kashmir to Punjab with many migrating even before 1800s. I once read a Kashmiri khawaja Lone guy from Wah area of northern punjab who disclosed that he has written record of his family migration from Kashmir valley to Wah area around 1769 during Afghan durrani rule in Kashmir. So a lot of "facts" have got burried under the dust due to political instabilites and turmoil in Kashmir valley from 1800 onwards. These are all speculations but in the absence of concrete data/facts the only thing one is left with is speculation.

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## Whirling_dervesh

A lot of bullshit and speculation from so called experts on this thread, based on what people looked like. The thread is about a wrestler and one comment about the fact that wrestling was dominated by kashmiris in a certain period has led to kashmiri geneologist experts mushrooming out of nowhere. Makes no difference but people talk of Jamaican sprinters or Pakistani squash players or even Romanian Gymnasts as these races have excelled in a particular sport, its not a superiority issue and those who have said that in this thread are deeply insecure.

Kashmiris like other peoples have sub sects within the overall branches hence why the difference in looks. There are countless sects such as Butt, Lone, Dar, Mir, Wani, Mantoo, Khwaja, Kak, Tartrin etc etc hence the difference from people to people. I think the least diluted race in subcontinent is Kashmiris due to the fact that the terrain is unforgiving and mountain locked from 3 out of 4 sides.

Earthquakes, Famines, despotic rulers have forced migration to across north subcontinet and of course diet and climate will play a part and im sure inter caste marriage may play a part but by and large that is extremely low as kashmiris largely do not marry outside of caste like a lot of other north subcontinent tribes.

Its not a racially superiority contest but just an observation. Some people on here need to put aside their inherent bias and prejudices and move on, if they had a bad experience with a particular person be it kashmiri or anyone else then do not tar an entire race with the same brush .....get over it.


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## ZAC1

Whirling_dervesh said:


> Almost all these pehelwans seem to be ethnic kashmiris. Why did they have monopoly? Anyone know?


If u visit real kashmiris they are all skinny ...singl paslie...

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## Shazzad123

Crusher said:


> I have a feeling that there were geographically "many different" types of Kashmiris throughout the history in the geographic vicinity of the region called Kashmir kingdom in ancient texts and it might not have been restricted only to "Kashmir valley" of today but extended further west towards ancient Gandhara, as both were very closely related kingdoms and allies throughout the history. It is quite possible that more "lighter" skinned sturdy bodied Kashmiris in Punjab could be "indirect" immigrants to Punjab, I mean not directly from Kashmir valley to Punjab but rather from Kashmir valley to some region "X" to Punjab. And these "indirect" Kashmiri immigrants might have mixed with local populations of their "X" regions before arriving in Punjab. I agree with you "Kashmir valley people" at least the current ones are majority "slender" bodied, longer narrower faces and noses. They do have sturdy, broader faced Kashmiris in Kashmir valley but they are currently in minority compared to the slender narrow faced majority there.
> 
> Take a look at thsi picture,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other than Sabzar Bhat and Ishfaq Dar, all others have that typical narrow faces that are trademark of Kashmiris in Kashmir valley these days. Only the two guys Sabzar Bhat and Ishfaq Dar have heavier broader faces and are somewhat sturdier (in comparison to the others in the above picture) that are more similar to general "indus valley" populations (Punjabis, Sindhis, Baloch, southern Pashtuns) where broader faces are definitely the majority.
> 
> There is however one possibility that most Kashmiris were like Sabzar Bhat and Ishfaq Dar a couple of centuries ago but the major earth quakes, famines and outward migrations in the 19th century (1800s) have caused the drift that we observe among Kashmiris of the Kashmir valley, some documents from 1800s point that during 1800 to 1850 AD the population of Kashmir valley was reduced to 1/4 th of its size before 1800 AD due to a major earth quake, famines and outward migrations during this period, that is a huge drift in terms of population and certain traits might been "lost" considerably among the Kashmiris of the Kashmir valley and the modern inhabitants of Kashmir valley just represents the gene-pool of those 1/4 survived population during 1800 to 1850 AD. Your cousin's friends family might have come to punjab perhaps before 1800 AD. Irrespective of the general BS on internet regarding Kashmiris movement to Punjab, many Kashmir moved to Punjab as early as during 1700s, even an "information board" in front of Allam Iqbal's ancestral home in Sialkot reads that his ancestors moved to Sialkot from Kashmir in 1752 that is well before the "perverted" late 1800s during dogra rule when a lot of Kashmiris migrated to Punjab particularly to Amritsar and Lahore urban settlements.
> Here is the picture where the board in front of Iqbal ancestral house in Sialkot reads that his family came from Kashmir to Sialkot city in 1752, that is a good century before his birth in 1877.
> View attachment 578742
> 
> 
> As the case of Raheem Bakhsh and Allama Iqbal families show that many Kashmiris in Sailkot, Gujranwala, Gujrat and Rawalpindi have been some of the earliest immigrants from Kashmir to Punjab with many migrating even before 1800s. I once read a Kashmiri khawaja Lone guy from Wah area of northern punjab who disclosed that he has written record of his family migration from Kashmir valley to Wah area around 1769 during Afghan durrani rule in Kashmir. So a lot of "facts" have got burried under the dust due to political instabilites and turmoil in Kashmir valley from 1800 onwards. These are all speculations but in the absence of concrete data/facts the only thing one is left with is speculation.




I live in the UK and I'll tell you Punjabis of Lahore who settle in London are small to medium just like Indian people. Pashtuns are a bit bigger but most Pashtuns are average size similar to Middle Eastern people like Iranians and Turks here. Then you have the Mirpuri Gujjars and Bhain Rajputs in Alum Rock and Bradford who are as big as the Jamaican guys in my town. Even in MMA clubs they're generally in the middle to heavyweight divisions

Look at Zubair Khan, he doesn't understand the rules but fights like a animal in the ring. He is a Mirpuri Gujjar. 






Another AJK guy is Zack Khan from Britain 

Even professional bodybuilders say he is gifted with a great back.


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