# Sever ties with India, Pakistan tells Afghanistan



## StormShadow

Western hopes of leaving Afghanistan within reach of a peace deal when Nato troops pull out in 2014 are dimming, with planned negotiations in Qatar at a stalemate and Pakistan demanding that Afghanistan, for example, sever all ties with India in return for supporting the talks.


Afghans and foreigners across the political spectrum have been pushing hard for negotiations for several years, driven by concerns that the already-bloody insurgency could spiral into full-blown civil war when foreign forces have left.

*A key reason for the failure is the ambivalence of the Pakistani government, which in recent weeks appears to have backed away from support for the process.* 

*The Afghan government says the demands are that ties with India be severed, that army officers be sent to Pakistan for training and that a strategic partnership deal be signed immediately.* 

Unfortunately Pakistan today is changing the goalposts on its support for the peace process once again, said the Afghan foreign ministry spokesman, Janan Mosazai. 

Pakistan somehow decided now to put down certain preconditions for its support for the peace process which are completely unacceptable to Afghanistan and to any other independent country.

The deterioration in ties has already had an impact: one senior Afghan source said flights organised by Pakistan for militants to Doha had already been halted. Without transport for negotiators, talks are unlikely to get very far.

The Taliban themselves have remained elusive, attacking top government negotiators and refusing to publicly embrace talks.

The Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, visited the Qatari capital, Doha, at the weekend, where a handful of Taliban have set up base since 2011.

Sever ties with India, Pakistan tells Afghanistan - Hindustan Times

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## Ajaxpaul

Afghanistan should send its army officers to Pakistan ? Not even asking the permission of Afghans !!!.

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## Silverblaze

I do not think that severing ties with India would be a proposal by Pakistan. 

If closing down consulates in some areas is equated to severing of ties, then may God with be the Afghan foreign ministry.

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## BATMAN

I seriously, doubt that zardari may have said any thing like this. Sounds more like a usual lie of hindustan times for brain washed hindu audience.

Zardari actually is supplying free fuel to indian army in Afghanistan and pushing indian containers in and around Pakistan.

Why would he suddenly take u turn.

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## ExtraOdinary

Still treating afghanistan as their own backyard, this will only alienate the afghans more

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## iajj

the biggest stakeholder in afghanistan is neither afghans nor yindoos. the greatest stake is the safety and security of pakistanis - and yindoos know this. yindoos also know that correspondingly pakistan can more effectively and more economically intervene in afghanistan and yindoos cannot compete with this insuperable pakistani advantage, so yindoos are only in afghanistan to create mischief, to be annoying, to no advantage of either themselves or afghans or pakistanis, but i guess that is what yindoos are really playing at.

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## W.11

Cherokee said:


> I will say it in UP Style ..



my dear hamid kerzai on record has said india supports terrorism in pakistan from afghanistan, uses afghans, we pakistanis dont hve anything against afghans developing their country by forging strong relations, but truth is afghanistan the backyard of pakistan is being used for notorious activites

BTW if pakistan government was little mature itself it would forge better relations with afghnistan and tried to treat them as equal friends instead of masters, in this way afghans would have liked pakistan more then indians and indians wouldnt hve got any change to use afghans



Ayush said:


> paksitanwa ki lolwa hoi gawa.


 @Ayush trolling thats new

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## Cherokee

W.11 said:


> my dear hamid kerzai on record has said india supports terrorism in pakistan from afghanistan, uses afghans, we pakistanis dont hve anything against afghans developing their country by forging strong relations, but truth is afghanistan the backyard of pakistan is being used for notorious activites
> 
> BTW if pakistan government was little mature itself it would forge better relations with afghnistan and tried to treat them as equal friends instead of masters, in this way afghans would have liked pakistan more then indians and indians wouldnt hve got any change to use afghans
> 
> 
> @Ayush trolling thats new




Where did Hamid Karzai on record said that India supports Terrorism in Pakistab from Afghanistan .Tell me .

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## joekrish

@W.11 - "hamid kerzai on record has said india supports terrorism in pakistan" do you have any links to the statement?

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## Ayush

W.11 said:


> @Ayush trolling thats new



yaar,hum bhi insaan hain..

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## joekrish

Ayush said:


> yaar,hum bhi insaan hain..




Kabhi, kabhi kuch loge insaan ko be janvar bana dhey gay. (pardon my Hindi and hinglish spellings)

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## iajj

W.11 said:


> my dear hamid kerzai on record has said india supports terrorism in pakistan from afghanistan, uses afghans, we pakistanis dont hve anything against afghans developing their country by forging strong relations, but truth is afghanistan the backyard of pakistan is being used for notorious activites
> 
> BTW if pakistan government was little mature itself it would forge better relations with afghnistan and tried to treat them as equal friends instead of masters, in this way afghans would have liked pakistan more then indians and indians wouldnt hve got any change to use afghans
> 
> 
> @Ayush trolling thats new



pakistan can be friends with mexico: does that mean angloamericans can be friends with mexico? of course not. pakistan can treat mexico with equality and fairness because the two countries are far apart and pakistan wants very little from mexico, but angloamericans' strategic calculation with their neighbor right to the south is completely different and they wanted many, many more things from mexico. so it makes sense that angloamericans wanted to dominate that relationship and tries to bully, cajole, blackmail mexico in order to get what they want to get whereas pakistan can always be friendly and equal to mexico. 

same thing with afghanitan: yindoos want very little from afghtanistan and yindoos know that. pakistan, by contrast, has too many needs in afghanistan and cannot simply set that relationship on autopilot: pakistan is far more motivated to control that relationship, and it is compelled by its own national security to do so.

so it is always easier for yindoos to make these (meaningless) goodwill gestures to afghanistan that pakistan simply cannot make. and pakistanis need not take this as a bad thing: if pakistanis must take actions in afghanistan that ruffles some weathers, pakistanis just need to understand these actions are taken with good cause conducive to pakistan's national interests. what is truly important is not to match yindoos' meaningless gestures in afghanistan but to really understand your own unique relationship to afghanistan and what you really want to get out of the relationship. your relationship with afghanistan is bound to be far more complicated than yindoo-afghan relationship, but the best strategic mind doesn't necessarily make most friends: it just knows what it truly wants, pays the price it deems truly reasonable to pay, and obtains what it sets out to obtain. he knows no pity, no regrets, nor sorrow. pakistan cannot afford to compete with yindoos in being "friendly" to afghanistan, and a pakistani should feel no pang about it

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## Ayush

^^ .


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## Secur

Any International sources reporting that news ?

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## Caucasian Albania

What??????????????? I doubt this is real news.

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## JanjaWeed

To all those who seems to question the credibility of the source... already been reported a week ago in the international media...



> *Pakistan An Obstacle To Peace &#8211; OpEd*
> It is amazing how Pakistan continues to sponsor terrorism and it is getting away with it. In the past few weeks, Afghanistan and Pakistan have been sparring over how to resolve the Afghan quagmire. For the last 12 years, every attempt by Afghanistan to get the Pakistani government and its terrorist proxies to the table of negotiation has failed. On March 27th, Afghanistan announced an alternate plan of side-lining Pakistan, and directly negotiating with its proxies.
> 
> *Amongst many demands that Pakistan brings to the negotiating table for taming its Taliban proxies is for Afghanistan to cut its relationship with India*. As a sovereign state, Afghanistan has every right to pursue friendly relations with any country it deems necessary for its national interests. Since the fall of the Taliban, India has benefited Afghanistan in many ways which cannot be taken for granted.
> 
> Overall, India has provided between 650-750 million US dollars to support Afghanistan&#8217;s reconstruction, one of the largest contributions amongst neighboring countries. Amongst other aid, India has been actively supporting Afghanistan in its health and education sector. Thousands of Afghan students are provided scholarships to study in India; a very necessary aid that will help educate Afghanistan&#8217;s much needed future qualified administrators and work force.
> 
> Importantly, India is actively supporting Afghanistan to develop an alternate economic corridor via Iran to the Indian Ocean, bypassing Pakistan&#8217;s Karachi port, which happens to be landlocked Afghanistan&#8217;s sole route to the ocean. Afghanistan has been forced to seek an alternate route due to Pakistan&#8217;s erratic border closures and intentional processing delays at Karachi port lasting months, which cost Afghan businessmen millions of dollars. With such an unpredictable and hostile neighbor, Afghanistan has no choice, but to seek an alternate economic corridor to ensure its independence.
> 
> More recently, Afghanistan sought the aid of Pakistani Ulema (religious leaders) to declare suicide bombings contrary to the principles of Islam, but they refused to accept that request. On the contrary, the head of the Pakistani Ulema Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi&#8212;who is close to Pakistan&#8217;s security establishment&#8212;proclaimed that waging war in Afghanistan is a Jihad (religious war).
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s never ending double dealings and double crossings and its lack of seriousness in supporting a peace process in Afghanistan is leading to frustration and is causing the Afghan people and government to look beyond the Pakistani government and the international community. If the international community continues to succumb to Pakistan&#8217;s irresponsible attitude, the tension in the region, including terrorism, can spread to nearby countries and perhaps beyond. The international community must take a strong stand against Pakistan for supporting terror proxies. The Afghans and the international community have provided Pakistan many opportunities to redeem itself, and if it continues along the same wrong path, economic and military sanctions through the UN rather than appeasement are warranted.
> 
> Pakistan An Obstacle To Peace - OpEd Eurasia Review





BATMAN said:


> I seriously, doubt that zardari may have said any thing like this. Sounds more like a usual lie of hindustan times for brain washed hindu audience.
> 
> Zardari actually is supplying free fuel to indian army in Afghanistan and pushing indian containers in and around Pakistan.
> 
> Why would he suddenly take u turn.



Batman & usual brainfarts go side by side. What's with bringing religion into the discussion willy nilly? Here.. an international source for you.. just in case Indian one is not good enough for you.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/29032013-pakistan-an-obstacle-to-peace-oped/

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## GR!FF!N

Secur said:


> Any International sources reporting that news ?






> They said Islamabad demanded three preconditions: That Afghanistan limit its relations with India  Pakistan's archenemy; reach a domestic consensus on peace; and immediately sign a strategic partnership with Pakistan.



Afghanistan says Pakistan putting conditions on Taliban peace effort, relations at new low | Fox News

The Associated Press: Afghan relations with Pakistan at new low



i request you that read both the news or search more in google..there are dozens of them..


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## INDIC

Caucasian Albania said:


> What??????????????? I doubt this is real news.



Then you have no idea of this region.


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## Pandora

Afghan Government = A gathering of Moron$

And people who believe these moron$ are even bigger moron$.


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## ExtraOdinary

smuhs1 said:


> Afghan Government = A gathering of Moron$
> 
> And people who believe these moron$ are even bigger moron$.



just 'coz they dont kowtow your line makes them morons?


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## Pandora

ExtraOdinary said:


> just 'coz they dont kowtow your line makes them morons?



Karzai and his cronies will be cleaning afghan toilets after Americans are finished with their negotiations with taliban.


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## A1Kaid

Severing ties with India is in Afghanistan's best interest, it will benefit their relations with Pakistan which they need the most.

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## Pandora

Secur said:


> Any International sources reporting that news ?



Just India as usual.


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## A1Kaid

smuhs1 said:


> Just India as usual.




No, Guardian is reporting this as well, but it states "Afghanistan government says" Pakistan requested they sever ties with India in a new deal which will allow Afghan army officers to be trained in Pakistan.

Afghanistan peace deal: Taliban talks hit deadlock | World news | guardian.co.uk

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Its good for afghanistans "future" in the long run.

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## Pandora

A1Kaid said:


> No, Guardian is reporting this as well, but it states "Afghanistan government says" Pakistan requested they sever ties with India in a new deal which will allow Afghan army officers to be trained in Pakistan.
> 
> Afghanistan peace deal: Taliban talks hit deadlock | World news | guardian.co.uk



Even so these are negotiations so no one should expect any compromise from pakistani side. Afghanistan Government is very hostile towards pakistan so we should make sure that any future solution does not have an effect on pakistan in a bad way. If we are helping them then the least they can do is to talk with good manners.


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## GR!FF!N

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Its good for afghanistans "future" in the long run.



I think you should let them decide what is best for them.every other day they are blaming pakistan for all the terror attack happened inside afganistan.don't know for long run,but short run doesn't look promising.and strategic ties with pakistan will harm their relation with nato and USA.


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## Pakistanisage

Pakistan calls the SHOTS, Bozos......

You can twist yourself into a PRETZEL but it won't help.

In the end what Pakistan says goes.

Any of you Indians care to make a bet ?

Just wait for 2014 and Afghan Taliban will do Pakistan's bidding and your Indian rear would be kicked out of Afghanistan.

Again, put your money where your mouth is.

I say you Indians will be out of Afghanistan by 2015.

Get used to it BOZOS................. Pakistan RULZZZZZZZ, BOZOS......

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## Pandora

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan calls the SHOTS, Bozos......
> 
> You can twist yourself into a PRETZEL but it won't help.
> 
> In the end what Pakistan says goes.
> 
> Any of you Indians care to make a bet ?
> 
> Just wait for 2014 and Afghan Taliban will do Pakistan's bidding and your Indian rear would be kicked out of Afghanistan.
> 
> Again, put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> I say you Indians will be out of Afghanistan by 2015.
> 
> Get used to it BOZOS................. Pakistan RULZZZZZZZ, BOZOS......



Couldn't have said it better .

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## ExtraOdinary

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan calls the SHOTS, Bozos......
> 
> You can twist yourself into a PRETZEL but it won't help.
> 
> In the end what Pakistan says goes.
> 
> Any of you Indians care to make a bet ?
> 
> Just wait for 2014 and Afghan Taliban will do Pakistan's bidding and your Indian rear would be kicked out of Afghanistan.
> 
> Again, put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> I say you Indians will be out of Afghanistan by 2015.
> 
> Get used to it BOZOS................. Pakistan RULZZZZZZZ, BOZOS......



whatever floats your boat


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## indushek

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan calls the SHOTS, Bozos......
> 
> You can twist yourself into a PRETZEL but it won't help.
> 
> In the end what Pakistan says goes.
> 
> Any of you Indians care to make a bet ?
> 
> Just wait for 2014 and Afghan Taliban will do Pakistan's bidding and your Indian rear would be kicked out of Afghanistan.
> 
> Again, put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> I say you Indians will be out of Afghanistan by 2015.
> 
> Get used to it BOZOS................. Pakistan RULZZZZZZZ, BOZOS......



What an entry to the thread !!!

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## Ajaxpaul

BATMAN said:


> I seriously, doubt that zardari may have said any thing like this. Sounds more like a usual lie of hindustan times for brain washed hindu audience.
> 
> Zardari actually is supplying free fuel to* indian army in Afghanistan* and pushing indian containers in and around Pakistan.
> 
> Why would he suddenly take u turn.



India does not have an army in Afghanistan....security maybe provided to diplomates in counslates, but i can assure you of the fact that zardari is not providing it.


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## acetophenol

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan calls the SHOTS, Bozos......
> 
> You can twist yourself into a PRETZEL but it won't help.
> 
> In the end what Pakistan says goes.
> 
> Any of you Indians care to make a bet ?
> 
> Just wait for 2014 and Afghan Taliban will do Pakistan's bidding and your Indian rear would be kicked out of Afghanistan.
> 
> Again, put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> I say you Indians will be out of Afghanistan by 2015.
> 
> Get used to it BOZOS................. Pakistan RULZZZZZZZ, BOZOS......



You are talking as if Taliban is an internationally reputed charitable organization.

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## Vinod2070

BATMAN said:


> I seriously, doubt that zardari may have said any thing like this. Sounds more like a usual lie of hindustan times for brain washed hindu audience.
> 
> *Zardari actually is supplying free fuel to indian army in Afghanistan and pushing indian containers in and around Pakistan.*
> 
> Why would he suddenly take u turn.



If this is true (and presumably happening with army's buy in), you are really in a tough spot.


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## EzioAltaïr

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan calls the SHOTS, Bozos......
> 
> You can twist yourself into a PRETZEL but it won't help.
> 
> In the end what Pakistan says goes.
> 
> Any of you Indians care to make a bet ?
> 
> Just wait for 2014 and Afghan Taliban will do Pakistan's bidding and your Indian rear would be kicked out of Afghanistan.
> 
> Again, put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> I say you Indians will be out of Afghanistan by 2015.
> 
> Get used to it BOZOS................. Pakistan RULZZZZZZZ, BOZOS......



Reading that gave me an allergy.


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## Vinod2070

acetophenol said:


> You are talking as if Taliban is an internationally reputed charitable organization.



If there is one country (besides Afghanistan itself) that needs to worry about post 2014, it is Pakistan.

It will feel the most heat, especially in the tribal areas.

If Afghanistan is divided along ethnic lines (formally or informally as in Iraq), guess what is going to happen in the tribal areas.

And where will the Taliban fancy their chances?

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## notsuperstitious

Pakistani hegemonic and imperialistic designs at work again. The past delusion of grandeur is still alive. Although in that past too it was the Afghan warlords who were imperialistic and hegemonic 

BTW Pakistan doesn't even rule their own Pashtun areas. So the chest thumping may not be rooted in reality.

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## invincible

A1Kaid said:


> Severing ties with India is in Afghanistan's best interest, it will benefit their relations with Pakistan which they need the most.



They don't need it more than u need it


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## Bang Galore

Vinod2070 said:


> If there is one country (besides Afghanistan itself) that needs to worry about post 2014, it is Pakistan.
> 
> It will feel the most heat, especially in the tribal areas.
> 
> If Afghanistan is divided along ethnic lines (formally or informally as in Iraq), guess what is going to happen in the tribal areas.
> 
> And where will the Taliban fancy their chances?




Yeah, I almost never understand why so many Pakistanis rub their hands gleefully as if 2014 is some kind of a godsend. They keep talking about kicking Indians about but don't seem to realise that Afghanistan is Pakistan's neighbour, not India's. How much would it take to keep things on a boil permanently bogging down Pakistan with their delusions on their western border ? Keep reminding them, to no avail however, that 2014 won't be the 1990's, India will easily be able to channel in a couple of billion dollars a year if necessary, to keep the Pakistanis & their proxies at bay. Add to the mix, the Russians, the Iranians & the Americans_(who would be itching to pay Pakistan back in their own coin)_ and Pakistan will quickly realise what the reality is._ As I have said before, one should be careful what they wish for, they might just get it._

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## INDIC

What a baseless demand? Afghanistan always have deep relations with India since 1947, it was Pakistan who never had good terms with Afghans since the day of Pakistan's creation.


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## Vinod2070

Bang Galore said:


> Yeah, I almost never understand why so many Pakistanis rub their hands gleefully as if 2014 is some kind of a godsend. They keep talking about kicking Indians about but don't seem to realise that Afghanistan is Pakistan's neighbour, not India's. How much would it take to keep things on a boil permanently bogging down Pakistan with their delusions on their western border. Keep reminding them, to no avail however, that 2014 won't be the 1990's, India will easily be able to channel in a couple of billion dollars a year if necessary, to keep the Pakistanis & their proxies at bay. Add to the mix, the Russians, the Iranians & the Americans_(who would itching to pay Pakistan back)_ and Pakistan will quickly realise what the reality is. As I have said before, *one should be careful what they wish for, they might just get it.*



The time is not far. We will all see how the events pan out.

The reality is that Pakistan will have to have a detente with India and start focusing on her Western borders as her primary threat perception.

I am sure those in position of power and decision making in Pakistan are not as eager at this turn of events. 

We have little expectations from Afghanistan, we just don't want it to become a terror factory like in Taliban days. There are enough others who share our interests and will be able to secure them, at least to an acceptable degree.

We have a buffer state in between to absorb the shocks. 

Now, that is a service to the motherland that we will appreciate.

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## Gentelman

Ayush said:


> yaar,hum bhi insaan hain..



Bhai bt jab sab hee Insan banay hoon tab to haath halka rakha karo na...



Gigawatt said:


> What a baseless demand? Afghanistan always have deep relations with India since 1947, it was Pakistan who never had good terms with Afghans since the day of Pakistan's creation.



Pakistan always try bro but the Afghans are ruled by brought puppies who just lick feet...
Pakistan is giving land to it's refugees thousands in number while just chk out the Afghan missiles attack on Pakistan..and infiltrating terrorism and giving safe heaven to terrorists in their land...
yeah you are away so you are happy if India was a little near the Afghanistan then we will se how good your relations are with them...

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## StormShadow

acetophenol said:


> You are talking as if Taliban is an internationally reputed charitable organization.


For him it is. After all, they also follow the book!

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## Secur

Fair enough it is ...

The Afghan Govt wants our help for these peace talks and since the world runs on quid pro quos , it will have to submit to our demands , the foremost being the " limiting " of their ties with India which aren't in our interests , the interference in FATA and Baluchistan and the terrorism planned and executed from Afghanistan is a serious problem originating from a significantly high number of consulates ( which somehow give the impression that either the Afghans are rich people or Afghanistan is a tourism or business hub ) the thing is that whatever happens in that country directly or indirectly affects us , hence the need to take measures to control it . If Karzai changes his aggressive stance towards Pakistan , stop the same old " Durand Line " rhetoric and doesn't allow anti-Pakistan activity from his soil then I am sure we will reciprocate in kind but at the moment , this is the state of affairs . Either do it or talk on your own , why involve us ?

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## Star Wars

If this happens, Afghanistan is doomed again .... The govt. will fall , militants will take over , proxy war will begin to terrorize Innocent Kashmir's and Indians and not to mention , the whole thing thing will end up biting at their back again ....


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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> What a baseless demand? Afghanistan always have deep relations with India since 1947, it was Pakistan who never had good terms with Afghans since the day of Pakistan's creation.



How is it baseless in the first place ? Your presence there is not in our interests , why should we allow for that to continue ? 

Despite the hostility which was started by the Afghans in the first place , we still provide food and almost everything from the transit route , play host to 3 million refugees and provide training .



Star Wars said:


> If this happens, Afghanistan is doomed again ...



What , if Kabul severs its ties with India ?

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## Star Wars

Secur said:


> How is it baseless in the first place ? Your presence there is not in our interests , why should we allow for that to continue ?
> 
> Despite the hostility which was started by the Afghans in the first place , we still provide food and almost everything from the transit route , play host to 3 million refugees and provide training .
> 
> 
> 
> What , if Kabul severs its ties with India ?



We allow ? What do you mean we allow ? all you can do is protest and nothing more ... you have completely lost control over Afghanistan for you to even talk about "*allowing*" anything . 

Its the people of Afghanistan who will decide on their own ... Afghanistan is an independent country and they will make their own decisions .... These demands are at best laughable ....

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## Secur

Star Wars said:


> We allow ? What do you mean we allow ? all you can do is protest and nothing more ... you have completely lost control over Afghanistan for you to even talk about "*allowing*" anything .
> 
> Its the people of Afghanistan who will decide on their own ... Afghanistan is an independent country and they will make their own decisions .... These demands are at best laughable ....



We still have that much influence in that country that you cant even imagine , a few years under the permission of a puppet regime shouldn't put you in any delusions of any sort ... Afghanistan is solely dependent on Pakistan for its needs ... Why do you think the Chicago summit and Bonn conference failed ? Why the hell do you think the Afghan Govt requests Pakistani co-operation for progress in these talks ? The USSR tried before and failed , the US is going next year abandoning the country , a war that they can neither afford to fight nor have the will left for it any longer ... Simply put , without Pakistan on board , there is little you can do there ...

Exactly , for the people to decide , first there must be a Central Govt in Afghanistan , at the moment it even lacks coherence as a nation ... You really think so ?  Good for you to cheer for a regime that cant even exert control beyond the presidential palace in Kabul ...

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## JohnSeb

StormShadow said:


> Western hopes of leaving Afghanistan within reach of a peace deal when Nato troops pull out in 2014 are dimming, with planned negotiations in Qatar at a stalemate and Pakistan demanding that Afghanistan, for example, sever all ties with India in return for supporting the talks.
> 
> 
> Afghans and foreigners across the political spectrum have been pushing hard for negotiations for several years, driven by concerns that the already-bloody insurgency could spiral into full-blown civil war when foreign forces have left.
> 
> *A key reason for the failure is the ambivalence of the Pakistani government, which in recent weeks appears to have backed away from support for the process.*
> 
> *The Afghan government says the demands are that ties with India be severed, that army officers be sent to Pakistan for training and that a strategic partnership deal be signed immediately.*
> 
> Unfortunately Pakistan today is changing the goalposts on its support for the peace process once again, said the Afghan foreign ministry spokesman, Janan Mosazai.
> 
> Pakistan somehow decided now to put down certain preconditions for its support for the peace process which are completely unacceptable to Afghanistan and to any other independent country.
> 
> The deterioration in ties has already had an impact: one senior Afghan source said flights organised by Pakistan for militants to Doha had already been halted. Without transport for negotiators, talks are unlikely to get very far.
> 
> The Taliban themselves have remained elusive, attacking top government negotiators and refusing to publicly embrace talks.
> 
> The Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, visited the Qatari capital, Doha, at the weekend, where a handful of Taliban have set up base since 2011.
> 
> Sever ties with India, Pakistan tells Afghanistan - Hindustan Times



I read another article which says The Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, visited the Qatar's capital, Doha where the Taliban has an 'OFFICE'


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## Secur

Vinod2070 said:


> If Afghanistan is divided along ethnic lines (formally or informally as in Iraq), guess what is going to happen in the tribal areas.



I thought you boys commenting on this thread like an Afghan affairs expert had any idea of reality on ground at least , but it turns out I was mistaken . Afghanistan has always been like that volatile and not completely stable and forget about dividing it , even if you try to alienate Pashtuns there in any way , that alone would be enough for that plan to fail and send that country into civil war . 

The tribal areas will be safe , the loyalty of the Pashtuns living on this side of the Durand line is unquestionable ... I can assure you of that , much like the Afghans were when they attacked Bajaur once upon a time only to be turned back by the tribals .



JohnSeb said:


> I read another article which says The Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, visited the Qatar's capital, Doha where the Taliban has an 'OFFICE'



Yes they have , just because you came to know about it only recently doesn't make it funny or non existent , what is there to laugh about it ?


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## JohnSeb

Any lasting solution/peace in Afghanistan need Pakistan's support, no doubt about that


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## Vinod2070

Secur said:


> I thought you boys commenting on this thread like an Afghan affairs expert had any idea of reality on ground at least , but it turns out I was mistaken . Afghanistan has always been like that and forget about dividing it , even if you try to alienate Pashtuns there in any way , that alone would be enough for that plan to fail and send that country into civil war .



I am just looking at the possible outcomes after the US withdrawal.

It does seem that neither the ANA nor the Taliban will be in a position to enforce its writ on all of Afghanistan. We hope it doesn't degenerate into a civil war.

So the likely outcome is sort of self rule or division along ethnic lines (formal or informal).



> The tribal areas will be safe , the loyalty of the Pashtuns living on this side of the Durand line is unquestionable ... I can assure you of that , much like the Afghans were when they attacked Bajaur once upon a time only to be turned back by the tribals .



True. But there is also a strong Pro Pushtun sentiment for those across the Durand. How that plays out in future has to be seen.


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## JohnSeb

Secur said:


> I thought you boys commenting on this thread like an Afghan affairs expert had any idea of reality on ground at least , but it turns out I was mistaken . Afghanistan has always been like that volatile and not completely stable and forget about dividing it , even if you try to alienate Pashtuns there in any way , that alone would be enough for that plan to fail and send that country into civil war .
> 
> The tribal areas will be safe , the loyalty of the Pashtuns living on this side of the Durand line is unquestionable ... I can assure you of that , much like the Afghans were when they attacked Bajaur once upon a time only to be turned back by the tribals .
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they have , just because you came to know about it only recently doesn't make it funny or non existent , what is there to laugh about it ?



Yeah I find it damn funny that a notorious terrorist organization have opened offices in the Middle East

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## Secur

JohnSeb said:


> Yeah I find it damn funny that a notorious terrorist organization have opened offices in the Middle East



Well , its surprising and something new  But still seeing the coalition's progress in the country , doesn't lie in the realms of fiction ...


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## Secur

Vinod2070 said:


> I am just looking at the possible outcomes after the US withdrawal.
> 
> It does seem that neither the ANA nor the Taliban will be in a position to enforce its writ on all of Afghanistan. We hope it doesn't degenerate into a civil war.
> 
> So the likely outcome is sort of self rule or division along ethnic lines (formal or informal).
> 
> True. But there is also a strong Pro Pushtun sentiment for those across the Durand. How that plays out in future has to be seen.



Alright , if it helps ... The US is more keen to bring Taliban in the mainstream if you want something that is likely to happen ...

I have always predicted a civil war after Americans depart , both do not have the power or resources to control Afghanistan completely , the ANA will most likely disintegrate and join different factions like NA or Iran backed , even today their loyalty is questionable ... But the thing to remember there that even today Taliban control a very significant part of Afghanistan and that is important ...

No , the Pashtuns will never accept that , a civil war is nothing new , that country has been like that for the past 200 years if you read history , so if it couldn't be divided then , then it isn't possible now ...

Of course , there is ... But not at the cost of betraying Pakistan , this much our planners know for sure looking at their past reactions and behaviors ...

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## Sugarcane

Well Done!!! Nothing is free in this world and Northern Alliance is not trustworthy.

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## Star Wars

StormShadow said:


> &#8220;Pakistan somehow decided now to put *down certain preconditions for its support for the peace process which are completely unacceptable to Afghanistan and to any other independent country*.&#8221;
> 
> The deterioration in ties has already had an impact: one senior Afghan source said flights organised by Pakistan for militants to Doha had already been halted. Without transport for negotiators, talks are unlikely to get very far.
> 
> Sever ties with India, Pakistan tells Afghanistan - Hindustan Times



Bolded a few points which should have been bolded ........

here is another one from Hindu

Pakistan denies asking Afghanistan to snap ties with India - The Hindu


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## Star Wars

well..that ended the discussion ....


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## Secur

At best, Pakistan would have asked Mr Karzai to limit their relations and to make sure the Afghan soil isn't being used by the Indians for anti Pakistan activity, not sever them completely, the FOX report said exactly that and the Indian media is well known for exaggerating things. You ask for our help in the peace process and we will naturally take advantage of that opportunity to make them stop anti Pakistan activity. Simple as that, talk to Taliban yourself if you are so uncomfortable with us, who's stopping you? 

As for the above part, the Afghan Govt must be asked if it can exercise any control over areas except the Presidential palace.


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## Cheetah786

The whole news is a complete fabrication and poor attempt to make India looks like the victim here propaganda journalism. At the end Guardian name is shown as it was the source of the news but doesent say guardian is the source.


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## Serpentine

StormShadow said:


> Western hopes of leaving Afghanistan within reach of a peace deal when Nato troops pull out in 2014 are dimming, with planned negotiations in Qatar at a stalemate and *Pakistan demanding that Afghanistan, for example, sever all ties with India in return for supporting the talks.*



Is this real? Neither Pakistan nor any other country can tell Afghanistan with who it should have relations or not.It just doesn't make sense. Why on earth should Afghanistan cut diplomatic relations with India or other countries?

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## StormShadow

Era_923 said:


> Is this real? Neither Pakistan nor any other country can tell Afghanistan with who it should have relations or not.It just doesn't make sense. *Why on earth should Afghanistan cut diplomatic relations with India or other countries?*


"Strategic Depth". A strong, stable and independent Afghanistan is not in pak's interest. They want Afghanistan to be a client state and tow pakistan's line and use militias against India and Indian interests. India is making great progress in pakistan with developmental works and winning Afghan's hearts which pakistan is unable to digest and becoming a pain in the @ss for the pakistans and hence the obvious reaction which is more of a frustration.


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## Sedqal

Era_923 said:


> Is this real? Neither Pakistan nor any other country can tell Afghanistan with who it should have relations or not.It just doesn't make sense. Why on earth should Afghanistan cut diplomatic relations with India or other countries?



You are the one to talk, you armed northern alliance to teeth - where the heck was Afghanistan's sovereignty then?

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## ExtraOdinary

Sedqal said:


> You are the one to talk, you armed northern alliance to teeth - where the heck was Afghanistan's sovereignty then?



You guys supported a mass murdering genocidal regime. Go read up on how they executed hazaras of mazar-e-sharif.


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## haviZsultan

Trying to order Afghanistan around has never worked nor will it work anymore. I have no clue what to do with that country to our north which constantly creates hurdles for us and considers us an enemy. When Pakistan supported the Afghans in the 1980's in order to see a Soviet defeat our leaders probably did not even imagine that it could have such repercursions. Today I have not met a single Afghan who doesn't partly or wholly blame Pakistan for its problems.

Approximately a year ago while I was writing my book Badal I dared to venture into an Afghan dominated forum. I seek to merge as a Pashtun and call myself one after Pakistani as they are some of the most misunderstood people on earth (often blamed for terror too though they are actually the victims), so I thought there would be a welcome and I would develop a market for my book. Instead all I found there was abuse for Pakistan, Pakistanis and Jinnah. Going there was really a traumatic experience.

But it still proved one thing. The Afghans hate us beyond hate. I think they are even worse than the Indians.

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## Serpentine

Sedqal said:


> You are the one to talk, you armed northern alliance to teeth - where the heck was Afghanistan's sovereignty then?



Yes of course we did,but I wasn't talking about arming any sides, the fact is, we didn't force Afghanistan to cut its relations with any country, that's just absurd.Please don't change my words.

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## Sashan

ExtraOdinary said:


> You guys supported a mass murdering genocidal regime. Go read up on how they executed hazaras of mazar-e-sharif.




Not to mention the murdering of the Iranian diplomats when the Talibans captured Mazar-e-Sharif.

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## NALANDA

...and I am told again and again on this Forum that India is a bully. 

I have never seen such a shameless bully around.


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## Pandora

Even without our intervention taliban will still going to kick all the indians out. Secondly pakistan is not acting alone as a lot of countries want a piece of afghan riches and i don't need to spell their name as it is very obvious.


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## Vinod2070

NALANDA said:


> ...and I am told again and again on this Forum that India is a bully.
> 
> I have never seen such a shameless bully around.



Actually it is desperation if you think of it.


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## Sedqal

ExtraOdinary said:


> You guys supported a mass murdering genocidal regime. Go read up on how they executed hazaras of mazar-e-sharif.



Your information is wrong, during soviet/ Afghan war these groups were united against one common enemy afterwards Iran used its Persia connection and made an alliance against Pashtoons (great game). 'Mass murdering' etc lose their meaning when NGOs which blamed Talibans have pointedly asserted that warlords of NA are worse then Talibans in human right violations. 

You should actually read some serious books written about post soviet Afghanistan.



Era_923 said:


> Yes of course we did,but I wasn't talking about arming any sides, the fact is, we didn't force Afghanistan to cut its relations with any country, that's just absurd.Please don't change my words.



Afghanistan lost its sovereignty the moment you armed one specific group (which by chance speak Persian and which by chance are majority Shi'ite). What you did was far worse then trying to diplomatically use your influence for a favorable position. Pakistan has a sizable Pashtoon population which for centuries has been linked with Pashtoons in Afghanistan. What did you think was going to happen after you gang up on Pashtoon segment?

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## INDIC

Secur said:


> How is it baseless in the first place ? Your presence there is not in our interests , why should we allow for that to continue ?
> 
> Despite the hostility which was started by the Afghans in the first place , we still provide food and almost everything from the transit route , play host to 3 million refugees and provide training .



It were Arabs and America who paid for Afghan refugees, not Pakistan. Pakistan has no right to ask Afghanistan to sever any relation with any country. 

Do you know the history of Afghanistan-Pakistan relation before Soviet-Afghan war. In 1955, Afghans even ransacked Pakistan Embassy in Kabul when NWFP province was dissolved to form one unit. Indians had never been unwanted people in Afghanistan, they always have dislike for Pakistan, not the Indians.


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## Serpentine

Sedqal said:


> Your information is wrong, during soviet/ Afghan war these groups were united against one common enemy *afterwards Iran used its Persia connection and made an alliance against Pashtoons* (great game). 'Mass murdering' etc lose their meaning when NGOs which blamed Talibans have pointedly asserted that warlords of NA are worse then Talibans in human right violations.



I'm interested to see you proofs and documents for this claim.

Prove to me that it was Iran who armed NA against Pashtuns,first.Sir, we are in internet and information age, people can easily search on internet and get their facts.Let's read a brief history pf NA and Taliban:

NA:


> The Afghan Northern Alliance, officially known as the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan (Persian: &#8207; &#1580;&#1576;&#1607;&#1607; &#1605;&#1578;&#1581;&#1583; &#1575;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605;&#1740; &#1605;&#1604;&#1740; &#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1740; &#1606;&#1580;&#1575;&#1578; &#1575;&#1601;&#1594;&#1575;&#1606;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#8206; - Jabha-yi Muttahid-i Islami-yi Milli bara-yi Nijat-i Afghanistan), *was a military front that came to formation in late 1996 after the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (Taliban) took over Kabul.* The United Front was assembled by key leaders of the Islamic State of Afghanistan, particularly president in exile Burhanuddin Rabbani and former Defense Minister Ahmad Shah Massoud. Initially it included mostly Tajiks but by 2000, leaders of other ethnic groups had joined the Northern Alliance. This included Abdul Rashid Dostum, Mohammad Mohaqiq, Abdul Qadir, Sayed Hussein Anwari and others.
> The Northern Alliance fought a defensive war against the Taliban government. They received support from Iran, Russia, India, Tajikistan and others, *while the Taliban were backed by al-Qaeda and Pakistan Armed Forces. The Northern Alliance was mostly made up of ethnic Tajiks, but later included Uzbeks, Hazaras, and Pashtuns.* The Taliban government was dominated by Pashtuns with other groups being the minority. After the US-led invasion and establishment of the Karzai administration in late 2001, the Northern Alliance broke apart and different political parties were formed.



Taliban:



> The Taliban (Pashto: &#1591;&#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1575;&#1606;&#8206; &#7789;&#257;lib&#257;n "students"), alternative spelling Taleban, is an Islamic fundamentalist political movement in Afghanistan. It spread into Afghanistan and formed a government, *ruling as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan from September 1996 until December 2001, with Kandahar as the capital. However, it gained diplomatic recognition from only three states: Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates. *Mohammed Omar has been serving as the spiritual leader of the Taliban since 1994.
> *While in power, it enforced its strict interpretation of Sharia law, and leading Muslims have been highly critical of the Taliban's interpretations of Islamic law. The Taliban were condemned internationally for their brutal treatment of women.*The majority of the Taliban are made up of Pashtun tribesmen. The Taliban's leaders were influenced by Deobandi fundamentalism,[14] and many also strictly follow the social and cultural norm called Pashtunwali.
> *From 1995-2001, the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence and military are widely alleged by the international community to have provided support to the Taliban. Their connections are possibly through Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, a terrorist group founded by Sami ul Haq. Pakistan has been accused by many international officials of continuing to support the Taliban today, but Pakistan claims to have dropped all support for the group since 9/11.* Al Qaeda also supported the Taliban with regiments of imported fighters from Arab countries and Central Asia. *Saudi Arabia provided financial support*. *The Taliban and their allies committed massacres against Afghan civilians, denied UN food supplies to 160,000 starving civilians and conducted a policy of scorched earth burning vast areas of fertile land and destroying tens of thousands of homes during their rule from 1996-2001. Hundreds of thousands of people were forced to flee to United Front-controlled territory, Pakistan, and Iran.*
> After the attacks of September 11, 2001 the Taliban were overthrown by the American-led invasion of Afghanistan. Later it regrouped as an insurgency movement to fight the American-backed Karzai administration and the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF). The Taliban have been accused of using terrorism as a specific tactic to further their ideological and political goals. *According to the United Nations, the Taliban and their allies were responsible for 75% of Afghan civilian casualties in 2010, 80% in 2011, and 80% in 2012.* It is widely believed that the city of Quetta in Pakistan serves as Quetta Shura's headquarter.





> *In 1992, the Afghan political parties agreed on the Peshawar Accords which established the Islamic State of Afghanistan and appointed an interim government. Militia leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was opposed to the agreement and with Pakistani support started a bombardment campaign against Kabul. *

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## DESERT FIGHTER

May Allah protect Gulbadeen Hikmatyar and Mullah Omar...


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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> It were Arabs and America who paid for Afghan refugees, not Pakistan. Pakistan has no right to ask Afghanistan to sever any relation with any country.
> 
> Do you know the history of Afghanistan-Pakistan relation before Soviet-Afghan war. In 1955, Afghans even ransacked Pakistan Embassy in Kabul when NWFP province was dissolved to form one unit. Indians had never been unwanted people in Afghanistan, they always have dislike for Pakistan, not the Indians.



Did they pay the money for their whole time spent in Pakistan which is indefinite ? The money was provided when they needed our assistance , it isn't given any longer ... Islamabad provides that country with food , drugs and other essentials and hence has the right to ask it for anything that isn't in Pakistan's interests ... They want our help for talks , not the other way around , so go figure that now ... Why should we do it for free looking at what they have reciprocated whilst taking our assistance in every field and specially something in which we can really help them ? Why should we not take this chance to make them stop anti Pakistan activity from their soil ? 

I know it from the start , that invasion of Bajaur was carried out well before 1955 , the incident you mentioned only proves my point of Afghan hostility towards Pakistan due to an agreement signed by their late Amir with the British but still we provide them with almost everything necessary for their survival , some unthankful people they are ...


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## INDIC

Sedqal said:


> Your information is wrong, during soviet/ Afghan war these groups were united against one common enemy afterwards Iran used its Persia connection and made an alliance against Pashtoons (great game). 'Mass murdering' etc lose their meaning when NGOs which blamed Talibans have pointedly asserted that warlords of NA are worse then Talibans in human right violations.
> 
> You should actually read some serious books written about post soviet Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> 
> Afghanistan lost its sovereignty the moment you armed one specific group (which by chance speak Persian and which by chance are majority Shi'ite). What you did was far worse then trying to diplomatically use your influence for a favorable position. Pakistan has a sizable Pashtoon population which for centuries has been linked with Pashtoons in Afghanistan. What did you think was going to happen after you gang up on Pashtoon segment?



The reality is Pakistanis don't care about well-being of Afghan people, all you guys care about "Strategic depth".

Pakistanis always make fun of Afghan people about their poverty, their social issues and their aspirations as a peaceful developing nation.



Secur said:


> Did they pay the money for their whole time spent in Pakistan ? The money was provided when they needed our assistance , it isn't given any longer ... Islamabad provides that country with food , drugs and other essentials and hence has the right to ask it for anything that isn't in Pakistan's interests ...
> 
> I know it from the start , that invasion of Bajaur was carried out well before 1955 , the incident you mentioned only proves my point of Afghan hostility towards Pakistan due to an agreement signed by their late Amir with the British but still we provide them with almost everything necessary for their survival ...



Pakistan didn't make any sacrifice, it was one of the beneficiaries of Soviet-Afghan war. Have you ever seen the movie Charlie Wilson's war, there was a scene where Ziaul Haq was complaining to Charlie Wilson that America is giving too little to Pakistan and they want more aid and military assistance from America.


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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> The reality is Pakistanis don't care about well-being of Afghan people, all you guys care about "Strategic depth".
> 
> Pakistan didn't make any sacrifice, it was one of the beneficiaries of Soviet-Afghan war. Have you ever seen the movie Charlie Wilson's war, there was a scene where Ziaul Haq was complaining to Charlie Wilson that America is giving too little to Pakistan and they want more aid and military assistance from America.



Why would we need some " strategic depth " when our nuclear deterrence works so well and has been time tested and reliable ? 

We never wanted the Soviet presence so close to our border , very true , but it is also true that the war was fought by the Afghans against Afghans themselves , not by Pakistan Army ... You conveniently excluded the rest of the beneficiaries , why ? ... Unfortunately , the situation in that country has an effect on us , so we can always take measures to control it ... As for the rest , I am not interested in same old rhetoric and movie scenes , keep it for others


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## INDIC

Secur said:


> *Why would we need some " strategic depth " when our nuclear deterrence works so well and has been time tested and reliable ?*



Are you sure about the bolded part. 



Secur said:


> We never wanted the Soviet presence so close to our border , very true , but it is also true that the war was fought by the Afghans against Afghans themselves , not by Pakistan Army ... You conveniently excluded the rest of the beneficiaries , why ? ... Unfortunately , the situation in that country has an effect on us , so we can always take measures to control it ... As for the rest , I am not interested in same old rhetoric and movie scenes , keep it for others



Now it proves my point the Pakistan did all that her own benefit instead of some charity work. Pakistan started interference in Afghanistan right after the removal of King Zahir Shah by Muhammad Daud Khan.


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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> Are you sure about the bolded part.
> 
> Now it proves my point the Pakistan did all that her own benefit instead of some charity work. Pakistan started interference in Afghanistan right after the removal of King Zahir Shah by Muhammad Daud Khan.



Go read history and then come to me 

Why exactly should we have done anything for charity specially fight a whole war ? The Afghans shouldn't have invited USSR into Afghanistan to fight against fellow Afghans and directly threatening us with their presence so close to our borders ... Pakistan was never interested in that sorry excuse for a country ever before , only when it invited the Soviets did we interfere by taking help of the same Afghans and providing them with weapons and training backed by the Americans and Saudis ... Funny , you kids , never mention them ?


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## GR!FF!N

Secur said:


> Go read history and then come to me
> 
> Why exactly should we have done anything for charity specially fight a whole war ? The Afghans shouldn't have invited USSR into Afghanistan to fight against fellow Afghans and directly threatening us with their presence so close to our borders ... Pakistan was never interested in that sorry excuse for a country ever before , only when it invited the Soviets did we interfere by taking help of the same Afghans and providing them with weapons and training backed by the Americans and Saudis ... Funny , you kids , never mention them ?




so,in this case,India's objection of China's presence in Pakistan and SL is logical,isn't it??then why you guys cry aloud when India object??double standard.. 

but main point is,why would Afganistan pay heed to the issues of Pakistan??they are a sovereign nation.is not it unethical to dictate the foreign affairs of another country??


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## Secur

GR!FF!N said:


> so,in this case,India's objection of China's presence in Pakistan and SL is logical,isn't it??then why you guys cry aloud when India object??double standard..
> 
> but main point is,why would Afganistan pay heed to the issues of Pakistan??they are a sovereign nation.is not it unethical to dictate the foreign affairs of another country??



Different situations , different scenarios , different responses ... None of the mentioned countries have the same situation and over dependence as Afghanistan ...

Are we asking them to ? Read it again carefully who needs whose help ! That so called sovereign nation must first control its country , not just its capital city , take back its refugees and stop the fighting within its country ... It is more unethical for them to allow our enemy to operate from their lands and destabilize a whole province or territory of our country despite what we have done for them ...


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## QMAN

.............................


who is Pakistan to Tell Afghanistan ????????   

.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

QMAN said:


> .............................
> 
> 
> who is Pakistan to Tell Afghanistan ????????
> 
> .



Afghanistans older twin brother.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Secur said:


> I thought you boys commenting on this thread like an Afghan affairs expert had any idea of reality on ground at least , but it turns out I was mistaken . Afghanistan has always been like that volatile and not completely stable and forget about dividing it , even if you try to alienate Pashtuns there in any way , that alone would be enough for that plan to fail and send that country into civil war .
> 
> The tribal areas will be safe , the loyalty of the Pashtuns living on this side of the Durand line is unquestionable ... I can assure you of that , much like the Afghans were when they attacked Bajaur once upon a time only to be turned back by the tribals .
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they have , just because you came to know about it only recently doesn't make it funny or non existent , what is there to laugh about it ?



Afghanistan is three centuries old country. It is volatile and unstable since russian invasion.
As for as civil war is concerned, Afghanistan plunged it into it in 90s while in pakistan Mohajirs are in civil wars with pretty much every community since creation of pakistan.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Afghanistan is three centuries old country. It is volatile and unstable since russian invasion.
> As for as civil war is concerned, Afghanistan plunged it into it in 90s while in pakistan Mohajirs are in civil wars with pretty much every community since creation of pakistan.



Can u stop playin ur flute about mohajirs etc in an afghanistan thread?

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## GR!FF!N

Secur said:


> Different situations , different scenarios , different responses ... None of the mentioned countries have the same situation and over dependence as Afghanistan ...
> 
> Are we asking them to ? Read it again carefully who needs whose help ! That so called sovereign nation must first control its country , not just its capital city , take back its refugees and stop the fighting within its country ... It is more unethical for them to allow our enemy to operate from their lands and destabilize a whole province or territory of our country despite what we have done for them ...




who needs whose help??allow to operate enemy from "Their Lands"???are you alright bro??from where Afghan Taliban is launching its operation??from where they are getting the training??in which country their senior leaders are hiding??In which country OBL hid for nearly a decade and later got killed??which country get bombed every single day by drones for sheltering the terrorist??which country is obstructing the Afghan peace process??TTP is the effect of your actions in FATA..those were the same soldiers who fought for you in Afganistan,direct consequence of your own action.


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## QMAN

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Afghanistans older twin brother.





Oh ! thats why You Made Life of Afghanis like "Hell" by Supporting and Creating Taliban , Which you don't want in Pakistan ?????? ......

I think they recognized your "Brother" policy .


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## Secur

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Afghanistan is three centuries old country. It is volatile and unstable since russian invasion.
> As for as civil war is concerned, Afghanistan plunged it into it in 90s while in pakistan Mohajirs are in civil wars with pretty much every community since creation of pakistan.



Tell me , when was the time it was anything close to being stable ?  When ?

Afghans have been fighting within themselves for the last 200 years ... Where do you the Muhajirs come here in between , kiddo ? The same old racism at work again , huh ?

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## Sugarcane

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Can u stop playin ur flute about mohajirs etc in an afghanistan thread?



This afghan refugee always try to start ethnic & sectarian fights

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## Secur

GR!FF!N said:


> who needs whose help??allow to operate enemy from "Their Lands"???are you alright bro??from where Afghan Taliban is launching its operation??from where they are getting the training??in which country their senior leaders are hiding??In which country OBL hid for nearly a decade and later got killed??which country get bombed every single day by drones for sheltering the terrorist??which country is obstructing the Afghan peace process??TTP is the effect of your actions in FATA..those were the same soldiers who fought for you in Afganistan,direct consequence of your own action.



We have a pretty good idea of who needs whose help , thank you ... 

Well if we are the only culprit in this whole thing , perhaps you should ask Kabul to not ask for our assistance and see if they can get the Taliban in the negotiations


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## DESERT FIGHTER

QMAN said:


> Oh ! thats why You Made Life of Afghanis like "Hell" by Supporting and Creating Taliban , Which you don't want in Pakistan ?????? ......
> 
> I think they recognized your "Brother" policy .



Afghan taliban have local support.. while TTP doesnt.. also does ur defination of brotherhood apply to srilanka and bangladesh aswell?

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## INDIC

Secur said:


> Go read history and then come to me
> 
> Why exactly should we have done anything for charity specially fight a whole war ? The Afghans shouldn't have invited USSR into Afghanistan to fight against fellow Afghans and directly threatening us with their presence so close to our borders ... Pakistan was never interested in that sorry excuse for a country ever before , only when it invited the Soviets did we interfere by taking help of the same Afghans and providing them with weapons and training backed by the Americans and Saudis ... Funny , you kids , never mention them ?



USSR was just an excuse, America was invited by Pakistan 6 months before Soviet troops entered Afghanistan.

So, stop your bs claims that Pakistanis have done great charity work for Afghanistan when Pakistan was the greatest beneficiary of Soviet-America rivalry in Afghanistan.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Secur said:


> Tell me , when was the time it was anything close to being stable ?  When ?
> 
> Afghans have been fighting within themselves for the last 200 years ... Where do you the Muhajirs come here in between , kiddo ? The same old racism at work again , huh ?



Quote me examples from history where different ethnicities were at civil war in Afghanistan for last two hundred years?


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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> So, stop your bs claims that Pakistanis have done great charity work for Afghanistan when Pakistan was the greatest beneficiary of Soviet-America rivalry in Afghanistan.



How childish of you , go read my post again ... Where do you see me mentioning that we did them some " charity " by helping them fight the Soviet war ? The same Afghans fought against the same ...


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## INDIC

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Afghan taliban have local support.. while TTP doesnt.. also does ur defination of brotherhood apply to srilanka and bangladesh aswell?



If TTP don't have local support, why Pakistan army failed to tame them even with 5500 airstrikes in mere 4 years in FATA. Infact, infact TTP has fully utilized Pakistan government incompetence to solve problems of Pashtun people.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Afghanistans older twin brother.



Pakistan is 65 year old while Afghanistan is centuries old so Pakistan is younger brother.

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## QMAN

Secur said:


> We have a pretty good idea of who needs whose help , thank you ...
> 
> Well if we are the only culprit in this whole thing , perhaps you should ask Kabul to not ask for our assistance and see if they can get the Taliban in the negotiations





I think today you need more negotiations with Taliban !  than Afghanistan .


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## Secur

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Quote me examples from history where different ethnicities were at civil in Afghanistan for last two hundred years?



So , actually , civil war only started when the Soviets arrived , make yourself clear first ?

Tell me , who invited the Soviets and for what ? 

Who took over from Daoud Khan and why ?

Why were the communists asking for help in the first place if they had local support ?

Why was Afghanistan always so lets say fuc-ked up ? 



QMAN said:


> I think today you need more negotiations with Taliban !  than Afghanistan .



That is why except for North Waziristan , every single area is under our control , kid ...

Whilst except for Kabul , what even lies in Karzai's control , nobody knows 



Gigawatt said:


> If TTP don't have local support, why Pakistan army failed to tame them even with 5500 airstrikes in mere 4 years in FATA.



We give full credit for that to the Indian consulates operating in Afghanistan hence the need to ask Mr Karzai to shut them otherwise maybe he wont even be able to escape from Kabul ...

One must check his recent statements


----------



## INDIC

Secur said:


> How childish of you , go read my post again ... Where do you see me mentioning that we did them some " charity " by helping them fight the Soviet war ? The same Afghans fought against the same ...



Most of the Pakistanis claim the same thing of doing charity work for Afghans. Afghans had their priority for which they fought but Pakistan was the greatest beneficiary of all this mess in Afghanistan. Afghans spilled their blood and Pakistan counted the American or Arab aid and military assistence. 

Thing only went bad for Pakistan with the recent rise of TTP.

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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> Most of the Pakistanis claim the same thing of doing charity work for Afghans. Afghans had their priority for which they fought but Pakistan was the greatest beneficiary of all this mess in Afghanistan. Afghans spilled their blood and Pakistan counted the American or Arab aid and military assistence.
> 
> Thing only went bad for Pakistan with the recent rise of TTP.



Most of the Pakistanis claim charity of helping Afghan refugees ( till now ) later , not of the war itself ... Afghans had their priority , so did we ... How exactly did we benefit by destabilization in our neighborhood which mind you would have happened sooner or later even if we had not intervened ?

More than 40 000+ Pakistanis have lost their lives in this WOT , have some shame , kid ...

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

Secur said:


> So , actually , civil war only started when the Soviets arrived , make yourself clear first ?
> 
> Tell me , who invited the Soviets and for what ?
> 
> Who took over from Daoud Khan and why ?
> 
> Why were the communists asking for help in the first place if they had local support ?
> 
> Why was Afghanistan always so lets say fuc-ked up ?
> 
> 
> 
> That is why except for North Waziristan , every single area is under our control , kid ...
> 
> Whilst except for Kabul , what even lies in Karzai's control , nobody knows
> 
> 
> 
> We give full credit for that to the Indian consulates operating in Afghanistan hence the need to ask Mr Karzai to shut them otherwise maybe he wont even be able to escape from Kabul ...
> 
> One must check his recent statements



You didnt give me examples from two year hundred years, i am waiting.
Our Pakistan experienced worst of bloody civil war just 25 years after its creation and lost its east wing .


----------



## QMAN

Secur said:


> That is why except for North Waziristan , every single area is under our control , kid ...
> 
> Whilst except for Kabul , what even lies in Karzai's control , nobody knows




So Ghost of Taliban attack In Sindh , Karachi , Peshawar , Islamabad  

you r still in dream , At least next 25 years US drone will be upon Afghanistan sponsored by Pakistan so In result Talibad will offer Return "Gift" for That to Pakistan.  

look like first target of taliban today is Pakistan not Afghanistan


----------



## INDIC

Secur said:


> give full credit for that to the Indian consulates operating in Afghanistan hence the need to ask Mr Karzai to shut them otherwise maybe he wont even be able to escape from Kabul ...
> 
> One must check his recent statements



What is the proof that India is supporting TTP? Like finding wine bottles or Bollywood cds in these areas.  Bollywood cds are available in every corner of Pakistan just like aata-daal sold in the market place.


----------



## Secur

Monkey D Luffy said:


> You didnt give me examples from two year hundred years, i am waiting.
> Our Pakistan experienced worst of bloody civil war just 25 years after its creation and lost its east wing .



I am just thinking how many examples of civil war in Afghanistan should I indeed give when I cant even remember when was the last time it was even stable  Can you tell me that ?

I know , but is that the point of discussion here , I do not think so ... No part of Afghanistan was thousands of miles away like us , unfortunately for you ...



Gigawatt said:


> What is the proof that India is supporting TTP?



Where is the proof for accusations you make even when your leaders sneeze , kid ?

I am sure the Pakistan Govt would have provided it to your Govt by now , Mr Hagel's statement came as a little surprise , didn't it ? Want me to get it for you ?

From the Americans , the Indians , love so much


----------



## INDIC

Secur said:


> Most of the Pakistanis claim charity of helping Afghan refugees ( till now ) later , not of the war itself ... Afghans had their priority , so did we ... How exactly did we benefit by destabilization in our neighborhood which mind you would have happened sooner or later even if we had not intervened ?
> 
> More than 40 000+ Pakistanis have lost their lives in this WOT , have some shame , kid ...



You are forgetting you got more than 20 billion aid from America. Leaving aside the refugee crisis, Pakistan harvested lots of benefit except the rise of TTP.


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## Secur

QMAN said:


> So Ghost of Taliban attack In Sindh , Karachi , Peshawar , Islamabad



A few attacks here and there doesn't mean that they control the area , otherwise your red corridors are full of them ... Aren't they ?



Gigawatt said:


> You are forgetting you got more than 20 billion aid from America.



Are you calling it as compensation for the lives lost and the status that Americans got due to Soviet defeat in Afghanistan ?


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## INDIC

Secur said:


> I am just thinking how many examples of civil war in Afghanistan should I indeed give when I cant even remember when was the last time it was even stable  Can you tell me that ?
> 
> I know , but is that the point of discussion here , I do not think so ... No part of Afghanistan was thousands of miles away like us , unfortunately for you ...
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the proof for accusations you make even when your leaders sneeze , kid ?
> 
> I am sure the Pakistan Govt would have provided it to your Govt by now , Mr Hagel's statement came as a little surprise , didn't it ? Want me to get it for you ?
> 
> From the Americans , the Indians , love so much



Where did Hagel said India is financing TTP, you trying to twist his accusations. 

When did your government provide proof.


----------



## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> Where did Hagel said India is financing TTP, you trying to twist his accusations.
> 
> When did your government provide proof.



_WASHINGTON: India has over the years financed problems for Pakistan from across the border in Afghanistan, says Senator Chuck Hagel, US President Barack Obama&#8217;s nominee for secretary of defence. _

India finances trouble in Pakistan: Hagel | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

_ He went on to add that &#8220;India for sometime has always used Afghanistan as a second front and India has over the years financed problems for Pakistan on that side of the border &#8212; and you can carry that into many dimensions.&#8221; _

Chuck Hagel

He said it all , what was left ?


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## QMAN

Secur said:


> I am just thinking how many examples of civil war in Afghanistan should I indeed give when I cant even remember when was the last time it was even stable  Can you tell me that ?
> 
> I know , but is that the point of discussion here , I do not think so ... No part of Afghanistan was thousands of miles away like us , unfortunately for you ...
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the proof for accusations you make even when your leaders sneeze , kid ?
> 
> I am sure the Pakistan Govt would have provided it to your Govt by now , Mr Hagel's statement came as a little surprise , didn't it ? Want me to get it for you ?
> 
> From the Americans , the Indians , love so much




well we grant official Versions from Americans .

*Clark : Pakistani are Pathological liars .............*

*BBC : Double Cross Pakistan .... 2 Hr Documentary..*

Sorry for u , Ur government didn't give single Proof To India.............

For Pakistan Proof is Presented in America too by Hedly , there is warrant against ur ISI officers in America .


----------



## INDIC

Secur said:


> A few attacks here and there doesn't mean that they control the area , otherwise your red corridors are full of them ... Aren't they ?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you calling it as compensation for the lives lost and the status that Americans got due to Soviet defeat in Afghanistan ?



Who decided to storm Lal Masjid resulting in almost frequent terror attacks in Pakistan. Pakistanis are more responsible for for this mess. 

In 2008 Pakistan took 8 billion loan from IMF, struggling to pay it back and another economic crisis to seek another 9 billion aid is coming just in 5 years. So, I can understand the importance of 20 billion aid from America.


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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> Who decided to storm Lal Masjid resulting in almost frequent terror attacks in Pakistan. Pakistanis are more responsible for for this mess.



Off topic nonsense , will not be replied to , carry it to the Lal Masjid thread , unrelated here 

Otherwise you can be asked about a lot of things beginning with attack on Golden Temple , wouldn't serve the thread , right ?


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## INDIC

Secur said:


> _WASHINGTON: India has over the years financed problems for Pakistan from across the border in Afghanistan, says Senator Chuck Hagel, US President Barack Obama&#8217;s nominee for secretary of defence. _
> 
> India finances trouble in Pakistan: Hagel | Pakistan | DAWN.COM
> 
> _ He went on to add that &#8220;India for sometime has always used Afghanistan as a second front and India has over the years financed problems for Pakistan on that side of the border &#8212; and you can carry that into many dimensions.&#8221; _
> 
> Chuck Hagel
> 
> He said it all , what was left ?



Where does it say India is financing TTP or BLA. 

The following accusations can be translated into number of meanings.


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## Solomon2

So the price of peace is that Afghanistan should submit and become a satellite of Pakistan, the justification being that the State needs control to ensure security, which as the areas it controls get larger more such conquests are needed - that is, the world should agree that Pakistan needs to become an Empire.

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## INDIC

Secur said:


> Off topic nonsense , will not be replied to , carry it to the Lal Masjid thread , unrelated here
> 
> Otherwise you can be asked about a lot of things beginning with attack on Golden Temple , wouldn't serve the thread , right ?



The difference is present and past.


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## Secur

QMAN said:


> well we grant official Versions from Americans .



Ok , but we are partners in this war and we both have blamed each other at times ...

Want me to post links by Pakistan Army's officers accusing US of the same ?

At least , a person keeps one of his flags right , giving himself away with the level of English and poor way of posting 



Gigawatt said:


> The following accusations can be translated into number of meanings.



_ He went on to add that &#8220;India for sometime has always used Afghanistan as a second front and India has over the years *financed problems for Pakistan on that side of the border &#8212; and you can carry that into many dimensions.&#8221;*_

Check " finance " in Oxford's dictionary now ... The problem became worse in the same years Hagel gave this statement hence India supports proxies in Pakistan through that country whether it be TTP or BLA or any other ... 



Gigawatt said:


> The difference is present and past.



When you are keen to discuss a war that happened three decades ago , that wouldn't be present and past , kiddo ... 

Unless , of course , we have double standards of choosing things to discuss ...


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## INDIC

Secur said:


> Ok , but we are partners in this war and we both have blamed each other at times ...
> 
> Want me to post links by Pakistan Army's officers accusing US of the same ?
> 
> At least , a person keeps one of his flags right , giving himself away with the level of English and poor way of posting
> 
> 
> 
> _ He went on to add that &#8220;India for sometime has always used Afghanistan as a second front and India has over the years *financed problems for Pakistan on that side of the border &#8212; and you can carry that into many dimensions.&#8221;*_
> 
> Check " finance " in Oxford's dictionary now ... The problem became worse in the same years Hagel gave this statement hence India supports proxies in Pakistan through that country whether it be TTP or BLA or any other ...
> 
> 
> 
> When you are keen to discuss a war that happened three decades ago , that wouldn't be present and past , kiddo ...
> 
> Unless , of course , we have double standards of choosing things to discuss ...



As I already said the following accusations don't translate into supporting TTP or BLA. Your own government is unable to provide proof but trying to prove it by twisting the accusations of an American.


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## Secur

@Gigawatt 

Not interested in going round and round in circles when the statement was as clear as hell ...  TTP couldn't have survived without foreign money ...

My own Govt has said it many times publicly and I am sure and have little doubt they would have conveyed it to your Govt too , I remember an instance of it being told to your PM at Sharm-el-Sheikh , accepting it or not wont make a difference if the GOP is adamant to take action against it by whatever way possible ...


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## QMAN

Secur said:


> @Gigawatt
> 
> Not interested in going round and round in circles when the statement was as clear as hell ...
> 
> My own Govt has said it many times publicly and I am sure they would have conveyed it to your Govt too , accepting it or not wont make a difference if the GOP is adamant to take action against it by whatever way possible ...



.......................................... I say Pakistan is on mars and Pakistan is sponsoring terror against Aliens , 100 times ....


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## Shardul.....the lion

i guess...
Pakistani establishment just scared of indian presence in Afghanistan,

They dont care whether its taliban or karzai or ANA, they want the Govt of Afgan to be anti-India.

i guess...
Pakistani establishment just scared of indian presence in Afghanistan,

They dont care whether its taliban or karzai or ANA, they want the Govt of Afgan to be anti-India.


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## Argus Panoptes

Shardul.....the lion said:


> i guess...
> *Pakistani establishment just scared of indian presence in Afghanistan,*
> 
> They dont care whether its taliban or karzai or ANA, they want the Govt of Afgan to be anti-India.



It is not a matter of being scared. It is only wise to be aware of being attempted encirclement by your worst enemy, and taking all precautions and steps to avoid that situation.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

What utter nonsense 

Even when the Taleban regime was in power Pakistan made no such requests. 

The only concern would be Indian entities known or suspected to be working with terrorist groups that are against Pakistani state. But diplomatic relations no big deal.

I mean - Pakistan has diplomatic relations with those people so why would we ask others not to



Sounds only like indian logic


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## Guynextdoor2

*he Afghan government says the demands are that ties with India be severed, that army officers be sent to Pakistan for training and that a strategic partnership deal be signed immediately. 
*

Were these demands made before or after the generals smoked the high quality pot?


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## INDIC

Secur said:


> @Gigawatt
> 
> Not interested in going round and round in circles when the statement was as clear as hell ...  *TTP couldn't have survived without foreign money ...
> *
> My own Govt has said it many times publicly and I am sure and have little doubt they would have conveyed it to your Govt too , I remember an instance of it being told to your PM at Sharm-el-Sheikh , accepting it or not wont make a difference if the GOP is adamant to take action against it by whatever way possible ...



Even Pakistanis accept the fact that TTP gets fund from Arab world. Your government blame India with the fake stories of wines or bollywood movies to proof that TTP is not a religion inspired movement like Afghan taliban. 

It is the fact that Afghans never liked Pakistan in Pakistan's entire history since 1947, they voted against Pakistan UN membership, Afghans attacked Pakistani embassy in 1955 after one unit was formed dissolving NWFP. If you have tensions with Afghanistan, Indians aren't responsible for that.

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## QMAN

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> What utter nonsense
> 
> Even when the Taleban regime was in power Pakistan made no such requests.
> 
> The only concern would be Indian entities known or suspected to be working with terrorist groups that are against Pakistani state. But diplomatic relations no big deal.
> 
> I mean - Pakistan has diplomatic relations with those people so why would we ask others not to
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds only like indian logic



well Taliaban was like half Pakistan ! 


During Taliban There was no Indian relation with Afghanistan .....


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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> Even Pakistanis accept the fact that TTP gets fund from Arab world. Your government blame India with the fake stories of wines or bollywood movies to proof that TTP is not a religion inspired movement like Afghan taliban.
> 
> It is the fact that Afghans never liked Pakistan in Pakistan's entire history since 1947. If you have tensions with Afghanistan, Indians aren't responsible for that.



The only problem is that the Indian support through its just too many consulates in Afghanistan is well established by Pakistani leaders and US ones . My Govt only blames India when it has the evidence , otherwise how many times you saw the GOP blaming India for every mishap in Pakistan like your one does at every chance ? 

I know it , I was the one who posted about it in the first place . Why tell me again and again ? Indians are responsible for exploiting that and Afghans for letting them , what is the problem then if we ask them to " limit " their relations with you or do not expect any help from us ?



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> What utter nonsense
> 
> Sounds only like indian logic



Well I said it before , that it is possible that the Govt of Pakistan asked them to " limit " their relations and keep a check and dont allow anti Pakistan activity from their country by the Indians but " severing " off ties is merely exaggeration of things by the Indian media ...


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## INDIC

Secur said:


> The only problem is that the Indian support through its just *too many consulates in Afghanistan* is well established by Pakistani leaders and US ones . My Govt only blames India when it has the evidence , otherwise how many times you saw the GOP blaming India for every mishap in Pakistan like your one does at every chance ?



Because India is one of the most prefeered destination for Afghans to get affordable heathcare and education facilities. Even Karzai had studied in India. Even Pakistan come to India for heathcare facilities. So, don't complain about Indian consulates in Afghanistan. 

Some Pakistani guy was claiming India has dozens of consulates in Afghanistan.

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## QMAN

Secur said:


> My Govt only blames India when it has the evidence , otherwise how many times you saw the GOP blaming India for every mishap in Pakistan like your one does at every chance ?
> ...



Then tell your Government to give us proof , Represent Front of international community . like we did 

File case against our official in US , UK , Afghanistan . .....  


this fairytale is only good for children and to make fool to yourself 

your Government once refused bodies of your own soldier calling them terrorist in kargil....


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## Abu Zolfiqar

QMAN said:


> well Taliaban was like half Pakistan !
> 
> 
> During Taliban There was no Indian relation with Afghanistan .....



What the heck is that supposed to mean? 

More brilliance from you people


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## Secur

Gigawatt said:


> So, don't complain about Indian consulates in Afghanistan.



Crap ! Afghans aren't that rich nor their country is some tourism or business hub , I told you before , therefore we have every reason to believe and evidence to support it that they are being used for sinister purposes under the guise of " good " ...



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> What the heck is that supposed to mean?



I , usually ask , where the hell are moderators and what are they doing ?

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## QMAN

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> What the heck is that supposed to mean?
> 
> More brilliance from you people



More idiocy from you people .

taliban wasn't government . It was terrorist org. supported by ISI . 


And how could Pakistan Publicly say to taliban to avoid relation with India ? when there was no relation !!! this my answer to your foolish note.

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## INDIC

Secur said:


> *Crap ! Afghans aren't that rich nor their country is some tourism or business hub ,* I told you before , therefore we have every reason to believe and evidence to support it that they are being used for sinister purposes under the guise of " good " ...



Many Afghans can surely afford healthcare and education in India because its not costly. Pakistan is trying to interfere in every aspect of Afghans' lives.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Pakistan is 65 year old while Afghanistan is centuries old so Pakistan is younger brother.



LOL.. Who has the bigger population.. who depends on Pakistan for even the basic necessities of life? heck Pakistan might be a new state but its people have thousands of years of history... do u understand my afghan refugee frnd.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> LOL.. Who has the bigger population.. who depends on Pakistan for even the basic necessities of life? heck Pakistan might be a new state but its people have thousands of years of history... do u understand my afghan refugee frnd.


Pakistan depends on U.S dollors so America is Pakistan's papa? India has 7 times more population than Pakistan so it is our uncle?....
And Pakistan is not thousands of year old, it has age of only 65 years. India on the other hand is thousands of year old country. Pakistan is a country carved out of India.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Pakistan depends on U.S dollors so America is Pakistan's papa? India has 7 times more population than Pakistan so it is our uncle?....
> And Pakistan is not thousands of year old, it has age of only 65 years. India on the other hand is thousands of year old country. Pakistan is a country carved out of India.



Pak doesnt "depend" on usa... India doesnt share religion or ethnicty with us... although india might be ur (afghanistans)new pimp daddy.

I never said Pakistan is thousands of years old... rather its PEOPLE HAVE A HISTORY DATING BACK SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS...
You need to get an education afghani.

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## INDIC

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pak doesnt "depend" on usa... India doesnt share religion or *ethnicty with us... *although india might be ur (afghanistans)new pimp daddy.



Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs share same ethnicity and languages with North Indians.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gigawatt said:


> Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs share same ethnicity and languages with North Indians.



And punjabis,sindhis make how much of indian population? 2-3%? also they dont share the same religion or culture with ur people....just language..


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Pakistan depends on U.S dollors so America is Pakistan's papa? India has 7 times more population than Pakistan so it is our uncle?....
> And Pakistan is not thousands of year old, it has age of only 65 years. India on the other hand is thousands of year old country. Pakistan is a country carved out of India.



Pakistan is repaying its payable loans to the IMF (on time and as schedule); military reimbursement (under CSF) is done case by case and in many cases Pakistan was not given its dues due to selective auditing; civilian aid is largely siphoned off by the government and hardly trickles down to common man (though some projects do deserve great credit)

so please explain your reasoning

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Pak doesnt "depend" on usa... India doesnt share religion or ethnicty with us... although india might be ur (afghanistans)new pimp daddy.
> 
> I never said Pakistan is thousands of years old... rather its PEOPLE HAVE A HISTORY DATING BACK SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS...
> You need to get an education afghani.



1- India has more muslims than Pakistan so it share religion with you through its muslim population. India's UP, delhi and bihar share ethnicity with mohajirs. India's sindhis share ethnicity with our sindhis. India's punjab share ethnicity with our punjab...
2- as for as people's history is concerned then you should know that it dates back to hazrat adam and eve. Or according to darwinists back to our monkey ancestors...as pakistanis we are only 65 years old, it doesnt matter how much we are old as pashtuns, punjabis, sindhis and baloch.

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## INDIC

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And punjabis,sindhis make how much of indian population? 2-3%? also they dont share the same religion or culture with ur people....just language..



Why you missed the Muhajir part.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gigawatt said:


> Why you missed the Muhajir part.



Only 8% live in our country.


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## INDIC

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Only 8% live in our country.



Those 8% came from everywhere from North India.  I even found people from Pakistan having Konkani or Marathi heritage.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gigawatt said:


> Those 8% came from everywhere from North India.  I even found people from Pakistan having Konkani or Marathi heritage.



So? we even have millions of bangalis,rohingias,iraqis,iranians etc...


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Only 8% live in our country.



Punjabis, sindhis and mohajirs make 82% population of Pakistan...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Punjabis, sindhis and mohajirs make 82% population of Pakistan...



they constitute 75% if u count even the pashtuns,baluch and others living in both provinces.. mardamshumari as they like to call it doesnt take into account the ethnicity of citizens.


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So? we even have millions of bangalis,rohingias,iraqis,iranians etc...



Identity crisis as usual...Pakistan is not middle east or central asian country, it is in south asia. It is twin brother of India.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> they constitute 75% if u count even the pashtuns,baluch and others living in both provinces.. mardamshumari as they like to call it doesnt take into account the ethnicity of citizens.



Why you are trying so hard to prove that pakistan doesnt share any thing with india?

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## Sugarcane

Gigawatt said:


> Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs share same ethnicity and languages with North Indians.



How Sindhi share same ethnicity & language with North Indians? Only Punjab shares that also with Indian Punjab only - and complete Punjab was demand of Muslim League.


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## W.11

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Identity crisis as usual...Pakistan is not middle east or central asian country, it is in south asia. It is twin brother of India.
> 
> 
> 
> Why you are trying so hard to prove that pakistan doesnt share any thing with india?



its very hard to ignore your stupid childish arguments

punjab and sindh lie on the prt called south asia

the baloch part is iranian part thus called middle eastern part

KPK and kashmir part is called central asian part

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## INDIC

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So? we even have millions of bangalis,rohingias,iraqis,iranians etc...



You have a shared history with Bengalis. But others you mentioned have nothing to do with Pakistan's creation and they are outsiders.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

LoveIcon said:


> How Sindhi share same ethnicity & language with North Indians? Only Punjab shares that also with Indian Punjab only - and complete Punjab was demand of Muslim League.



There are millions of sindhi hindus in India. Our Qauid e azam sahab was gujrati by ethnicity. Our first prime minister Liaqat ali khan was from surroundings of delhi. Mohajirs who make 8% with more than 14 million population were from delhi, U.P , bihar, hyderabad etc...and pakistan was originally not entirely north west india..before 1971 more than half of the pakistanis were bengalis.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Gigawatt said:


> You have a shared history with Bengalis. But others you mentioned have nothing to do with Pakistan's creation and they are outsiders.



I was replyin in context with ur "mohajir" konkona or marathi rant...


@ monkey the refugee... its u who has an identity crises... the urdu proverb " na ghar ka na ghat ka" suites u well.


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## INDIC

LoveIcon said:


> How Sindhi share same ethnicity & language with North Indians? Only Punjab shares that also with Indian Punjab only - and complete Punjab was demand of Muslim League.



Like you have Muhajirs we have Sindhis too. Sindhi is also an official language of India, most of them live in Mumbai or Gujarat.



W.11 said:


> its very hard to ignore your stupid childish arguments
> 
> punjab and sindh lie on the prt called south asia
> 
> the baloch part is iranian part thus called middle eastern part
> 
> KPK and kashmir part is called central asian part



Central Asia starts with Northern side of Khyber pass.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

W.11 said:


> its very hard to ignore your stupid childish arguments
> 
> punjab and sindh lie on the prt called south asia
> 
> the baloch part is iranian part thus called middle eastern part
> 
> KPK and kashmir part is called central asian part



Kashmir is in south asia, kashmiris are indic people.
Why you people are trying so hard to disconnect yourself from sub-continent identity? Some sort of identity crisis?...dude you are not arab or turk or iranian...pakistan movement was all about hindostani muslims. Pakistan is actually "muslim india".



Gigawatt said:


> Like you have Muhajirs we have Sindhis too. Sindhi is also an official language of India, most of them live in Mumbai or Gujarat.
> 
> 
> 
> Central Asia starts with Northern side of Khyber pass.



Indeed. Khyber pass is gateway to central asia.

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## INDIC

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I was replyin in context with ur "mohajir" konkona or marathi rant...
> 
> 
> @ monkey the refugee... its u who has an identity crises... the urdu proverb " na ghar ka na ghat ka" suites u well.



Pakistan was created for Muslims of British India, not the Iraqis or Rohingyas. You comparison was funny.

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## Sugarcane

Monkey D Luffy said:


> There are millions of sindhi hindus in India. Our Qauid e azam sahab was gujrati by ethnicity. Our first prime minister Liaqat ali khan was from surroundings of delhi. Mohajirs who make 8% with more than 14 million population were from delhi, U.P , bihar, hyderabad etc...and pakistan was originally not entirely north west india..before 1971 more than half of the pakistanis were bengalis.



Not millions some 0.2% - plus Sindh is in Pakistan - 

Inclusion of Bengal was not practical from start, it should have been separate entity from start. 

Pakistan is on cross roads and we share culture with India, Afghanistan & Iran


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## A1Kaid

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Kashmir is in south asia, kashmiris are indic people.
> Why you people are trying so hard to disconnect yourself from sub-continent identity? Some sort of identity crisis?...dude you are not arab or turk or iranian...pakistan movement was all about hindostani muslims. Pakistan is actually "muslim india".
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Khyber pass is gateway to central asia.



Kashmiris aren't an Indic people, don't lecture about history and ethnic composition you know little about. The Haplogroups and Mitochondrial DNA found in Kashmiri population differs considerably from common Indic peoples.

For starters you can read this and learn a little before making racial declarations.

Kashmiri Overseas Association, Inc. (KOA)


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## INDIC

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Kashmir is in south asia, kashmiris are indic people.
> Why you people are trying so hard to disconnect yourself from sub-continent identity? Some sort of identity crisis?...dude you are not arab or turk or iranian...pakistan movement was all about hindostani muslims. Pakistan is actually "muslim india".
> 
> Indeed. Khyber pass is gateway to central asia.



Hindus have tradition of Gotra(clan) name, Gotra name is passed from father to son or daughter but not from mother, and many Indians share same gotra irrespective of ethnicity. Even Sindhi Hindus share same with non-Sindhi Indians.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> @ monkey the refugee... its u who has an identity crises... the urdu proverb " na ghar ka na ghat ka" suites u well.



I do not suffer from identity crisis like you people...i am a pashtun


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I do not suffer from identity crisis like you people...i am a pashtun



Im a Pakistani and a baluch by ethnicity... its u whose confused about his country.



Monkey D Luffy said:


> Indeed. Khyber pass is gateway to central asia.



Lol... so now ur "central asian"... never knew central asians had hindu or buddhist ancestors..

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

A1Kaid said:


> Kashmiris aren't an Indic people, don't lecture about history and ethnic composition you know little about. The Haplogroups and Mitochondrial DNA found in Kashmiri population differs considerably from common Indic peoples.
> 
> For starters you can read this and learn a little before making racial declarations.
> 
> Kashmiri Overseas Association, Inc. (KOA)



I dont give a damn about halogroups and mitochondrial non-sense...you can say that balti are tibetians but kashmiris are indian people, they converted to islam from hinduism...lighter skin tone doesnt make you non-indic, many hindus across the india are of very light skin tone.

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## Armstrong

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Im a Pakistani and a baluch by ethnicity... its u whose confused about his country.



Mein nei sunna haii ke Baluch bhii humm Buttonn kii koii offshoot race hain ?


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## W.11

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Kashmir is in south asia, kashmiris are indic people.
> Why you people are trying so hard to disconnect yourself from sub-continent identity? Some sort of identity crisis?...dude you are not arab or turk or iranian...pakistan movement was all about hindostani muslims. Pakistan is actually "muslim india".



you are a dumb fool where am i trying to associate myself with anybody i have stated what the reality, its like you are in for an identity crises idiot

i dont care who is indic who is arabic, i hate arabs, iranians and afghanis like you

seems like you re too ashamed of your identity, afghani identity that is


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Im a Pakistani and a baluch by ethnicity... its u whose confused about his country.



Nationality is a different matter , we are talking about origin.


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## INDIC

A1Kaid said:


> Kashmiris aren't an Indic people, don't lecture about history and ethnic composition you know little about. The Haplogroups and Mitochondrial DNA found in Kashmiri population differs considerably from common Indic peoples.
> 
> For starters you can read this and learn a little before making racial declarations.
> 
> Kashmiri Overseas Association, Inc. (KOA)



Kashmiri language originated from Sanskrit. Not just Kashmir ethnic makeup of whole of North India changed with the migration of new people coming from central Asia. 

Our first Prime Minister Nehru was a Kashmiri, his wife Kamla Kaul was too a Kashmiri.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

W.11 said:


> you are a dumb fool where am i trying to associate myself with anybody i have stated what the reality, its like you are in for an identity crises idiot
> 
> i dont care who is indic who is arabic, i hate arabs, iranians and afghanis like you
> 
> seems like you re too ashamed of your identity, afghani identity that is



Nope, i am very proud of my pashtun/afghan identity.


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## INDIC

Armstrong said:


> Mein nei sunna haii ke Baluch bhii humm Buttonn kii koii offshoot race hain ?



Bhatt/Batt are/were Saraswat Brahmins, they are found everywhere in India Kashmir, Konkan, Karnataka. I have a Bhatt friend from Karnataka.

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## ShahidT

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Nope, i am very proud of my pashtun/afghan identity.



hazaras, tajiks, uzbeks to our north also associate themselves with an afghan identity. why can't you just be satisfied with your pakhtun identity as part of Pakistan? if you're so interested in afghan identity go to afghanistan.

and no pakhtun here falls for this crap. they are and will remain proud Pakistanis til the end of time. so just give it up dino.


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## aakash_2410

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And punjabis,sindhis make how much of indian population? 2-3%? also they dont share the same religion or culture with ur people....just language..



Absurd, ludicrous and laughable logic to say the least!

India is the bigger country out of two it has many sub-cultures and ethnicities. Indic population (Punjabis, Sindhis, Kashmiris and Mohajirs) are about 80% population of Pakistan. Heck, India even has sizable Pashtun population, whom we call 'Pathans'.

'Pakistan = A home for Indian Muslims where Muslims would be in majority' that was motto of Muslim league and Jinnah. You guys and your identity crisis. Arabs/Persians/Afghans must be laughing their heads off!







Only Pashtuns and Balochis can claim Iranian heritage rest of the Pakistanis are Indo-Aryans linguistically and ethnically but then again so are 80% of Indians. But Pashtuns have their own distinctive culture and identity. They don't need to pose as Arabs or Turks or whatever.



Areesh said:


> Modern India came into exitence on 15 August 1947. Before that it was British India, Mughal India and many more Indias. So technically 1 day younger than us.



Let's just say the words 'India', 'Hindustan' or 'Bharat' have existed for thousands of years but the first time ANYONE in this WHOLE WORLD ever heard the word 'Pakistan' was not before 1940s. See the difference?

@Topic,

How can any country ask another country to not have relations with x,y,z country in this day and age. Then they talk about brotherhood and equality :/

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## Areesh

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Pakistan depends on U.S dollors so America is Pakistan's papa? India has 7 times more population than Pakistan so it is our uncle?....
> *And Pakistan is not thousands of year old, it has age of only 65 years. India on the other hand is thousands of year old country. *Pakistan is a country carved out of India.



Modern India came into exitence on 15 August 1947. Before that it was British India, Mughal India and many more Indias. So technically 1 day younger than us.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

pehgaam e mohabbat said:


> hazaras, tajiks, uzbeks to our north also associate themselves with an afghan identity. why can't you just be satisfied with your pakhtun identity as part of Pakistan? if you're so interested in afghan identity go to afghanistan.
> 
> and no pakhtun here falls for this crap. they are and will remain proud Pakistanis til the end of time. so just give it up dino.



All pashtuns are afghans but not all afghans are pashtuns. The "A" in Pakistan stands for Afghania..you can call us "crap" but we didnt join pakistan to serve your punjab or go according to dictations of punjabis.

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## INDIC

LoveIcon said:


> Not millions some 0.2% - plus Sindh is in Pakistan -
> 
> Inclusion of Bengal was not practical from start, it should have been separate entity from start.
> 
> Pakistan is on cross roads and we share culture with India, Afghanistan & Iran



There are 3 million Sindhis in India. While Pakistan founder was a Gujarati. His real name was Muhammad Ali *Jinnahbhai*, both Hindu and Muslim Gujarati put Bhai with their names.

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## ares

Areesh said:


> Modern India came into exitence on 15 August 1947. Before that it was British India, Mughal India and many more Indias. So technically 1 day younger than us.



Ya rite !!

As per your logic, modern Pakistan only came into existence on 16 dec 1971..before that existed untied Pakistan.
So technically Pakistan is twenty four years younger than modern India.

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> Modern India came into exitence on 15 August 1947. Before that it was British India, Mughal India and many more Indias. So technically 1 day younger than us.



Some of the Pakistanis were claiming they don't share common ethnicity with Indians.


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## RazPaK

Is luffy saab having diarrhea from the mouth again?


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## Sugarcane

pehgaam e mohabbat said:


> hazaras, tajiks, uzbeks to our north also associate themselves with an afghan identity. why can't you just be satisfied with your pakhtun identity as part of Pakistan? if you're so interested in afghan identity go to afghanistan.
> 
> and no pakhtun here falls for this crap. they are and will remain proud Pakistanis til the end of time. so just give it up dino.



How an afghan refugee can be proud Pakistani?



Gigawatt said:


> Some of the Pakistanis were claiming they don't share common ethnicity with Indians.



Most of Indian thinks All Pakistanis share ethnicity with Indians



aakash_2410 said:


> Absurd, ludicrous and laughable logic to say the least!
> 
> India is the bigger country out of two it has many sub-cultures and ethnicities. Indic population (Punjabis, Sindhis, Kashmiris and Mohajirs) are about 80% population of Pakistan. Heck, India even has sizable Pashtun population, whom we call 'Pathans'.
> 
> 'Pakistan = A home for Indian Muslims where Muslims would be in majority' that was motto of Muslim league and Jinnah. You guys and your identity crisis. Arabs/Persians/Afghans must be laughing their heads off!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only Pashtuns and Balochis can claim Iranian heritage rest of the Pakistanis are Indo-Aryans linguistically and ethnically but then again so are 80% of Indians. But Pashtuns have their own distinctive culture and identity. They don't need to pose as Arabs or Turks or whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's just say the words 'India', 'Hindustan' or 'Bharat' have existed for thousands of years but the first time ANYONE in this WHOLE WORLD ever heard the word 'Pakistan' was not before 1940s. See the difference?



And Arabs & Turks just evaporated in air when British came -

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## W.11

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I dont give a damn about halogroups and mitochondrial non-sense...you can say that balti are tibetians but kashmiris are indian people, they converted to islam from hinduism...lighter skin tone doesnt make you non-indic, many hindus across the india are of very light skin tone.



so ******* what?


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

LoveIcon said:


> How an afghan refugee can be proud Pakistani?
> 
> 
> 
> Most of Indian thinks All Pakistanis share ethnicity with Indians



I am not a mohajir, mohajirs are those who migrated from Delhi, U.P, Bihar , bhopal, hyderabad, gujrat etc to Pakistan.


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## Areesh

ares said:


> Ya rite !!
> 
> As per your logic, modern Pakistan only came into existence on 16 dec 1971..before that existed untied Pakistan.
> So technically Pakistan is twenty four years younger than modern India.



Pakistan came into existence on 14 August 1947. Even the present Pakistan came in to existence on 14 August 1947. Only a part of its land became another country on 16 Dec 1971.

By the way if present India existed before 15 August 1947 why the hell your ancestors were called servants of Britain instead of servants government of India. 



Monkey D Luffy said:


> I am not a mohajir, mohajirs are those who migrated from Delhi, U.P, Bihar , bhopal, hyderabad, gujrat etc to Pakistan.



And also are not traitors and are completely loyal to there new adopted home.



Gigawatt said:


> Some of the Pakistanis were claiming they don't share common ethnicity with Indians.



That's wrong.

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## Marwat Khan Lodhi

W.11 said:


> so ******* what?



so lubricate your thumb and sit on it.


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## Areesh

RazPaK said:


> Is luffy saab having diarrhea from the mouth again?



Afghanistan ki mohabbat josh maar rahi hai. Thandai ho jaye gai kuch dair main.


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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> Pakistan came into existence on 14 August 1947. Even the present Pakistan came in to existence on 14 August 1947. Only a part of its land became another country on 16 Dec 1971.



Part of India became Pakistan on 14th August 1947. Tell me who wrote "Hindi hai hum watan hai Hindustan hamara."

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## Sugarcane

Gigawatt said:


> There are 3 million Sindhis in India. While Pakistan founder was a Gujarati. His real name was Muhammad Ali *Jinnahbhai*, both Hindu and Muslim Gujarati put Bhai with their names.



Still 3 million is nothing in population of over billion but anyway, does it prove that Pakistan share nothing with Afghanistan & Iran?


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> Part of India became Pakistan on 14th August 1947. Tell me who wrote "Hindi hai hum watan hai Hindustan hamara."



Part of *British* India became Pakistan and other part became modern India. True story.


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## aakash_2410

LoveIcon said:


> Most of Indian thinks _*All Pakistanis*_ share ethnicity with Indians
> 
> 
> 
> And Arabs & Turks just evaporated in air when British came -



Not all but most of them 

Hunn kar lo gall? What percentage of Pakistani population did Arabs and Tuks make up? not more than 1% I would have thought. Every Pakistani says he is Arab/Turk.

Are you a Punjabi? Be proud of your indentity, your language your land. No matter how much you try Arabs will never call you Arab even if you have remote Arab roots. They laugh on people like you. Be proud of what your parents gave you in veersa. Be desi be proud.

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## ares

Areesh said:


> Pakistan came into existence on 14 August 1947. Even the present Pakistan came in to existence on 14 August 1947. Only a part of its land became another country on 16 Dec 1971.



Same logic ..India has existed for centuries ... albeit with changing maps..On 14 Aug 1947 just *a part* of India became another country...that is why the process was called partition. 



Areesh said:


> By the way if present India existed before 15 August 1947 why the hell your ancestors were called servants of Britain instead of servants government of India.




For the same reason your ancestors were British slaves..India(Pakistan and Bangladesh being parts of India) was a British colony.
India was a part of British Commonwealth and not a part of Britain..so technically separate country with separate identity.


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## W.11

Monkey D Luffy said:


> so lubricate your thumb and sit on it.



why dont you get busy your father is coming apply some makeup and prepare yourself

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## INDIC

LoveIcon said:


> Still 3 million is nothing in population of over billion but anyway, *does it prove that Pakistan share nothing with Afghanistan & Iran?*



Pashtuns and Baloch  But Majority with North Indians  

A Punjabi says he is not similar to UPwale, then how are you similar to your own Muhajirs.


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## W.11

Monkey D Luffy said:


> I am not a mohajir, mohajirs are those who migrated from Delhi, U.P, Bihar , bhopal, hyderabad, gujrat etc to Pakistan.



you are not mohajoir you are a refugee

panah guzeen

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> Part of *British* India became Pakistan and other part became modern India. True story.



Modern Pakistan came on 16th december 1971 when West Pakistan became whole Pakistan.

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## aakash_2410

W.11 said:


> why dont you get busy your father is coming apply some makeup and prepare yourself



Post reported!

That was cheap/unnecessary/vulgar/out of order and of foul taste!

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## Areesh

ares said:


> Same logic ..India has existed for centuries ... albeit with changing maps..On 14 Aug 1947 just *a part* of India became another country...that is why the process was called partition.



British India existed for centuries. And before them Mughals. If your ancestors were ruling India before 15 August 1947, then your argument would have been valid. But since they were loyal servants of Queen, hence proves modern India is one day younger modern Pakistan.



> For the same reason your ancestors were British slaves



True. That's why we say unlike delusional Indians that we came into existence on 14 August.



> India was a part of British Commonwealth and not a part of Britain..so technically separate country with separate identity.



Take it anyways. You were under colonial rule. Modern India didn't existed before 15 August 1947. 

If modern India existed before 15 August 1947, then that guy Bhagat Singh was fighting against India and is a terrorist. Stop making him a hero and treat him like Afzal Guru.


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## Sugarcane

aakash_2410 said:


> Not all but most of them
> 
> Hunn kar lo gall? What percentage of Pakistani population did Arabs and Tuks make up? not more than 1% I would have thought. Every Pakistani says he is Arab/Turk.
> 
> Are you a Punjabi? Be proud of your indentity, your language your land. No matter how much you try Arabs will never call you Arab even if you have remote Arab roots. They laugh on people like you. Be proud of what your parents gave you in veersa. Be desi be proud.



Whatever percentage but that's fact that Arab, Turk, Mughal descents are there. 

LOL at your last part, my location and comments even on this thread doesn't tell you anything? I am proud Punjabi and proud at my Identity, rich culture and fertile lands and superior language - any doubts?


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> Modern Pakistan came on 16th december 1971 when West Pakistan became whole Pakistan.



Modern Pakistan was liberated on 14 August 1947. A day before liberation modern India. 

Your argument would have been valid if modern Pakistan was also liberated on 16 December 1971, which it didn't.


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## W.11

Gigawatt said:


> Pashtuns and Baloch  But Majority with North Indians



what are you trying to prove anyway whats your point?


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## Areesh

W.11 said:


> you are not mohajoir you are a refugee
> 
> panah guzeen



He is just a wannabe Sometimes wannabe Afghan. Sometimes wannabe Indian.

At least us whose ancestors migrated from India are not confused, and are completely and purely Pakistanis.

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> Modern Pakistan was liberated on 14 August 1947. A day before liberation modern India.
> 
> Your argument would have been valid if modern Pakistan was also liberated on 16 December 1971, which it didn't.



What about current map.


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## Sugarcane

Gigawatt said:


> Pashtuns and Baloch  But Majority with North Indians
> 
> A Punjabi says he is not similar to UPwale, then how are you similar to your own Muhajirs.



Muhajirs have their own distinct culture and they are proud of it same like i am proud of mine. They can claim their association with UP or Gujrat but UP has nothing to do with rest of Pakistanis


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## W.11

Gigawatt said:


> Modern Pakistan came on 16th december 1971 when West Pakistan became whole Pakistan.



dont be stupid, before 1947 no hindu was incharge of india, it were british and before for a millinnium, muhhal muslims, west pakistan was incharge for itself from 1947


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> What about current map.



Current map was liberated on 14 August 1947.

Talking about maps, your official map is also very flawed by the way.


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## Sugarcane

Areesh said:


> British India existed for centuries. And before them Mughals. If your ancestors were ruling India before 15 August 1947, then your argument would have been valid. But since they were loyal servants of Queen, hence proves modern India is one day younger modern Pakistan.



Indians are descent of Queen Elizbith

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## Areesh

LoveIcon said:


> Indians are descent of Queen Elizbith



Or of those different viceroys.

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## INDIC

LoveIcon said:


> Muhajirs have their own distinct culture and they are proud of it same like i am proud of mine. They can claim their association with UP or Gujrat but *UP has nothing to do with rest of Pakistanis*



Are you sure, what about Urdu language and the Pakistani cuisine that originated in UP. Your famous Nihari of Lahore originated in Delhi. While Real Punjabi dress is Kurta and Lungi(I saw in Maula Jatt).

Sometimes I see you guys unintentionally promote your ethnic fissure.



Areesh said:


> Current map was liberated on 14 August 1947.
> 
> Talking about maps, your official map is also very flawed by the way.



What flaw.

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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> What flaw.



It contains territories which are not included in India.


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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> It contains territories which are not included in India.



Both Portuguese and French called Goa and Pondicherry as India like Portuguese India, French India respectively same like British India and we asked them return those land since independence.


----------



## Solomon2

Argus Panoptes said:


> It is not a matter of being scared. It is only wise to be aware of being attempted encirclement by your worst enemy, and taking all precautions and steps to avoid that situation.


It's thinking like this that keeps Pakistanis cowed and enslaved rather than free. It took the Russians forty years to break out of such deluded paranoid thinking. Where are the Pakistanis willing to put down the Argus Panopteses in their midst?

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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> Both Portuguese and French called Goa and Pondicherry as India like Portuguese India, French India respectively same like British India and we asked them return those land since independence.



So. The point is still the same my friend. The country whose passport you use came into existence on 15 august 1947. It is pretty simple.


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## Sugarcane

Gigawatt said:


> Are you sure, what about Urdu language and the Pakistani cuisine that originated in UP. Your famous Nihari of Lahore originated in Delhi.



We also have Kababs all over Pakistan, does that make us all Iranians? We have Burgers, Pizzas does that mean we share culture with westerns? 


Gigawatt said:


> While Real Punjabi dress is Kurta and Lungi(I saw in Maula Jatt).
> 
> Sometimes I see you guys unintentionally promote your ethnic fissure.
> 
> What flaw.



You can't differentiate between UP & Punjab and discussing culture here?


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## Mian H Amin.

typical indian media, who have to make news out of nowhere .. typical india's Pakistan phobia ..

typical indian media, who have to make news out of nowhere .. typical india's Pakistan phobia ..


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## notsuperstitious

Gigawatt said:


> Modern Pakistan came on 16th december 1971 when West Pakistan became whole Pakistan.



Absolutely right. Logic must be consistently applied. Otherwise India was a founding member of League of Nations much before 1947

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> So. The point is still the same my friend. The country whose passport you use came into existence on 15 august 1947. It is pretty simple.



Your passport changed in 1971 with the removal of Bengali language.

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## ares

Areesh said:


> British India existed for centuries. And before them Mughals. If your ancestors were ruling India before 15 August 1947, then your argument would have been valid. But since they were loyal servants of Queen, hence proves modern India is one day younger modern Pakistan.



What is it stupid day or are your generally this obtuse ??
A nation is defined by its people ..passage of crown does not redefine a country..British crown passed on from Romans to Saxons to Normans like a hockey puck ..does it mean Britain ceased to Britain became different nation every time crown changed hands? 



Areesh said:


> True. That's why we say unlike delusional Indians that we came into existence on 14 August.



If we stick to your logic ..then you should say modern Pakistan came into existence on 16 Dec 1971.. as both geographical and physical identity of *'united' Pakistan* changed that day and two new nations came into being with completely different maps.



Areesh said:


> Take it anyways. You were under colonial rule. Modern India didn't existed before 15 August 1947.
> 
> If modern India existed before 15 August 1947, then that guy Bhagat Singh was fighting against India and is a terrorist. Stop making him a hero and treat him like Afzal Guru.



Well India has existed for centuries , before modern India, it was medieval India and before that ancient India..but those are just time periods.
India is not just a nation state, it is a civilization, which has existed and grown by absorbing aspects of many different civilizations.

It is understandable why this idea make you crib like an insecure little girl.The idea your "hamsaya" is centuries old civilizations can be frightening , when you realize your own nation was merely an afterthought, created just because two politician could not share power, is also perhaps one the reason many Pakistanis try to associate with Arab civilization.

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## INDIC

LoveIcon said:


> We also have Kababs all over Pakistan, does that make us all Iranians? We have Burgers, Pizzas does that mean we share culture with westerns?
> 
> 
> You can't differentiate between UP & Punjab and discussing culture here?



Punjabis in Pakistan has shifted to culture of UP. Your national language is also from UP. So, how you claim you have nothing common with UP.

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## Areesh

ares said:


> What is it stupid day or are your generally this obtuse ??
> A nation is defined by its people ..passage of crown does not redefine a country..British crown passed on from Romans to Saxons to Normans like a hockey puck ..does it mean Britain ceased to Britain became different nation every time crown changed hands?



Going by your stupid definition every country in this world including Pakistan existed for centuries and has a history of thousand years behind them. The name doesn't even matter. People used to live in these territories for centuries just like India. But the truth is that even modern Britain is way different from the Britain of 1900. You can't say Modern Britain and the Britain under the rule of Normans are the same. It is completely stupid. 



> If we stick to your logic ..then you should say modern Pakistan came into existence on 16 Dec 1971.. as both geographical and physical identity of 'united' Pakistan changed that day and two new nations came into being with completely different maps.



For the nth time. Modern Pakistan came into existence on 14 August 1947 when it gained freedom from British India. On 16 December it just lost a portion of its territory. Doesn't change the fact that present Pakistan used to exist even before that and Islamabad was the capital even before 16 December 1971.



> Well India has existed for centuries



Yeah right. And so does every other country in this world in one way or the other. 



> it was medieval India and before that ancient India..but those are just time periods.



Before that it was British India and Mughal India and Hindu India and Buddhist India. Not the modern India. 



> India is not just a nation state, it is a civilization, which has existed and grown by absorbing and absolving different many other civilizations.



Again. Applies to every other country in one way or the other. Doesn't change the fact that modern India came into existence on 15 August 1947.



> It is understandable why this idea make you crib like an insecure little girl.



We are actually laughing that how stupid you are. 



> The idea your "hamsaya" is centuries old civilizations can be frightening ,



The idea that our hamsaya is delusional and is facing issues of self praise is even more frightening. Such type of people are dangerous after all.



> when you realize your own nation was merely an afterthought, created just because two politician could not share power,



Well that's what you think. If you think so, go abuse Nehru for it. We don't believe in this.



> is also perhaps one the reason many Pakistanis try to associate with Arab civilization.



The whole Muslim world is related to Arab civilization because of the religion thing. Anyways this is a separate debate.



VishX said:


> *in 1947 born "Republic of India" not "India"*
> 
> India existed thousands of years before birth of Islam and their "Allah"



And Japan existed even before the planet earth existed. 

Oops that is as false as the notion that modern India existed for thousands of years.


----------



## Sugarcane

Gigawatt said:


> Punjabis in Pakistan has shifted to culture of UP. Your national language is also from UP. So, how you claim you have nothing common with UP.



LOL!!! In Pakistan we are being blamed that we have done Punjabization in everything and you are saying we shifted to UP culture 



VishX said:


> *in 1947 born "Republic of India" not "India"*
> 
> India existed thousands of years before birth of Islam and their "Allah"



And we took land from mars and imported people from moon and created country "Pakistan" on 14th Aug 1947

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## INDIC

LoveIcon said:


> LOL!!! In Pakistan we are being blamed that we have done Punjabization in everything and you are saying we shifted to UP culture


Punjabization is in economic term in cultural term its Urdufication. Lots of Punjabis want to speak Urdu like Urdu of Awadh. I even saw Pakistani singers singing the song in Brajbhasha mixed Urdu.


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## Sugarcane

Gigawatt said:


> Punjabization is in economic term in cultural term its Urdufication. Lots of Punjabis want to speak Urdu like Urdu of Awadh. I even saw Pakistani singers singing the song in Brajbhasha mixed Urdu.



You have to learn more about Pakistan

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## Argus Panoptes

Solomon2 said:


> It's thinking like this that keeps Pakistanis cowed and enslaved rather than free. It took the Russians forty years to break out of such deluded paranoid thinking. Where are the Pakistanis willing to put down the Argus Panopteses in their midst?



There is nothing wrong with my thinking. Imagine yourself as a American, with a military alliance between Canada and Mexico and the Caribbean States, and then tell me you wouldn't feel encircled with Mexico claiming back its territories including Texas, California, New Mexico and few other States. Remember how you guys went nearly ballistic in 1962 fearing the USSR was moving in to close? Same thing here.

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## Solomon2

Argus Panoptes said:


> There is nothing wrong with my thinking. Imagine yourself as a American, with a military alliance between Canada and Mexico and the Caribbean States -


More accurate analogy would be to imagine myself an American who insists that Mexico can't have a Canadian Embassy and all the officers of its military and police must serve at the pleasure of the United States government. 

An "alliance" between Afghanistan and India? Pakistan might push them into one, yes, but they'd hardly be interested if Pakistan was more interested in making peace with its neighbors rather than dominating or conquering them, yes?

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## RazPaK

Gigawatt said:


> Punjabis in Pakistan has shifted to culture of UP. Your national language is also from UP. So, how you claim you have nothing common with UP.



Lmao. 

We real Punjabis consider Lahore as commercialized Punjabis and even they are more Punjabi than Indian Punjab.


Perhaps it is time to broaden your horizons before making face palm type generalizations.

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## SamantK

Many Pakistanis accuse us of bullying countries in our neighborhood, then they justify bullying Afghanistan for national interest, against India. Why these double standards? 

Pakistanis are doing what they feel is the best way, correct or otherwise only time will tell. If one looks at the history of Pakistan and Afghanistan, the former's plans have always backfired cause they wanted a more than normal influence in the latter.

For India it will be good if it backfires again even otherwise keeping Pakistan busy on its western border will not be very difficult even post 2014 withdrawal..


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## RazPaK

samantk said:


> Many Pakistanis accuse us of bullying countries in our neighborhood, then they justify bullying Afghanistan for national interest, against India. Why these double standards?
> 
> Pakistanis are doing what they feel is the best way, correct or otherwise only time will tell. If one looks at the history of Pakistan and Afghanistan, the former's plans have always backfired cause they wanted a more than normal influence in the latter.
> 
> For India it will be good if it backfires again even otherwise keeping Pakistan busy on its western border will not be very difficult even post 2014 withdrawal..



Looks like you haven't studied Pak-Afghan history enough.

Stop with the hot air and research more.


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## SamantK

RazPaK said:


> Lmao.
> [/B]
> We real Punjabis consider Lahore as commercialized Punjabis and even they are more Punjabi than Indian Punjab.[/B]
> 
> 
> Perhaps it is time to broaden your horizons before making face palm type generalizations.



His statement seems inacurrate but can you explain the bolded part about how you are a real Punjabi and more Punjabi than Indian Punjab? Who gave this certificate?


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## SamantK

RazPaK said:


> Looks like you haven't studied Pak-Afghan history enough.
> 
> Stop with the hot air and research more.



Don't pass these one liners you are famous for, either refute my statements case by case or let it go.

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## RazPaK

Gigawatt said:


> In Maula Jatt I saw real Punjabis wearing Lungi-Kurta instead of Shalwar Kameez.



So you are basing your historical deductions on a film?

Punjabis wear shalwar kamiz, ya shalwar chador aur dhoti.


Instead of those films have a look at this and gain some knowledge.


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## KingMamba

samantk said:


> Many Pakistanis accuse us of bullying countries in our neighborhood, then they justify bullying Afghanistan for national interest, against India. Why these double standards?
> 
> Pakistanis are doing what they feel is the best way, correct or otherwise only time will tell. If one looks at the history of Pakistan and Afghanistan, the former's plans have always backfired cause they wanted a more than normal influence in the latter.
> 
> For India it will be good if it backfires again even otherwise keeping Pakistan busy on its western border will not be very difficult even post 2014 withdrawal..



No Pakistani thinks India is a bully, a bully can actually inflict damage on those weaker than it. India despite being stronger than Pakistan cannot do sht ergo India is not a bully. India is a punk that needs to stop killing innocent kashmiris.

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## W.11

Gigawatt said:


> Your passport changed in 1971 with the removal of Bengali language.



lol what a pathetic reason, you are s dumb as elephant


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## Solomon2

RazPaK said:


> Looks like you haven't studied Pak-Afghan history enough.


RazPak, do you accept that a nation can do evil things both when it's led by bad people _*or*_ when a wicked cause is served by good people - even if they happen to be your relatives?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

W.11 said:


> you are not mohajoir you are a refugee
> 
> panah guzeen



the bitter way he talks - i am fairly certain he just may be a refugee 



Solomon2 said:


> More accurate analogy would be to imagine myself an American who insists that Mexico can't have a Canadian Embassy and all the officers of its military and police must serve at the pleasure of the United States government.
> 
> An "alliance" between Afghanistan and India? Pakistan might push them into one, yes, but they'd hardly be interested if Pakistan was more interested in making peace with its neighbors rather than dominating or conquering them, yes?



an American talking and lecturing others about "coercive diplomacy" and hegemony/'domination' etc. is rather unusual i must say and invites criticism more than anything else

thanks anywayz

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## RazPaK

Solomon2 said:


> RazPak, do you accept that a nation can do evil things both when it's led by bad people _*or*_ when a wicked cause is served by good people - even if they happen to be your relatives?



In your reference to the US, I believe only the first can be the case.


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## Solomon2

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> t\an American talking and lecturing others about "coercive diplomacy" and hegemony/'domination' etc. is rather unusual i must say and invites criticism more than anything else
> thanks anywayz


So you agree with my analogy 100% - you just want to make out America as more guilty than Pakistan, but - unlike Pakistan today - you don't (or can't) cite a specific example.



RazPaK said:


> In your reference to the US, I believe only the first can be the case.


Not at all. Consider -





General Robert E. Lee. The classic case of a good man serving a bad cause - the perpetuation of slavery and tyranny. And if we can look at American military leaders this way, there isn't any reason we can't look at Pakistani military leaders in the same fashion, is there?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Solomon2 said:


> So you agree with my analogy 100% - you just want to make out America as more guilty than Pakistan, but - unlike Pakistan today - you don't (or can't) cite a specific example.
> 
> Not at all. Consider -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> General Robert E. Lee. The classic case of a good man serving a bad cause - the perpetuation of slavery and tyranny. And if we can look at American military leaders this way, there isn't any reason we can't look at Pakistani military leaders in the same fashion, is there?



an example about what? 

the part about coercive diplomacy or the part about hegemonic ambitions and practices?

hey -- it's nothing personal; every country does what's in its own best interest. USA does it, Pakistan aint much different.




p.s. too bad you don't want to talk about Andrew Jackon. A revolutionary American who also represented this whole "good man bad cause" thing. He'd figure better as an example than this bloke.

what about that marxist dear leader of the white house you and your bolshevik counterparts voted for in 2012; is he a "good guy" and a nobel peace prize winner whose drones kill school age children?


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## SamantK

KingMamba93 said:


> No Pakistani thinks India is a bully, a bully can actually inflict damage on those weaker than it. India despite being stronger than Pakistan cannot do sht ergo India is not a bully. India is a punk that needs to stop killing innocent kashmiris.



I would hate to mention it but since you speak with your ego rather than logic, 1971 will serve as a grim rebuttal.

And I have seen many Pakistanis calling India a bully, the topic is not Kashmir since Pakistan is not clean too


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## Solomon2

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hey -- it's nothing personal; every country does what's in its own best interest. USA does it, Pakistan aint much different.


The speeder and the murderer both break the law, yet they are usually very very different. 



> p.s. too bad you don't want to talk about Andrew Jackon. A revolutionary American who also represented this whole "good man bad cause" thing. He'd figure better as an example than this bloke.


 I was talking about A.J. yesterday! [O.K., Friday: link]



> what about that marxist dear leader of the white house you and your bolshevik counterparts voted for in 2012; is he a "good guy" and a nobel peace prize winner whose drones kill school age children?


We appear to agree on several OT matters.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Solomon2 said:


> The speeder and the murderer both break the law, yet they are usually very very different



Uhhh yeah great example. One is answerable to traffic courts (I'd know; i'm there at judiciary square almost every God damn Wednesday) while the latter is in a CRIMINAL court

a ticket and points vs. a felony and possible life in jail

jay-walking is breaking the law too 




> I was talking about A.J. yesterday!



too bad you didn't invite me to the conversation

he was a great nationalist and a great American (like Ronald Reagan)



> We appear to agree on several OT matters.



good.

let's roll a fat spliff and hug it out then. 


Just be advised; it's illegal too, but ehhh....."mehhhh" !!!!


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> Your passport changed in 1971 with the removal of Bengali language.



Our passport also changed in Mushy's reign when he introduced computerized passports. 

Doesn't mean that Pakistan came into existence in Musharraf's reign. Facts are facts buddy. You deny them. You present the stupid and childish arguments you presented just now. You make a clown out of yourself.

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> Our passport also changed in Mushy's reign when he introduced computerized passports.
> 
> Doesn't mean that Pakistan came into existence in Musharraf's reign. Facts are facts buddy. You deny them. You present the stupid and childish arguments you presented just now. You make a clown out of yourself.



Same Urdu English passport.


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## Spring Onion

StormShadow said:


> Western hopes of leaving Afghanistan within reach of a peace deal when Nato troops pull out in 2014 are dimming, with planned negotiations in Qatar at a stalemate and Pakistan demanding that Afghanistan, for example, sever all ties with India in return for supporting the talks.
> 
> 
> Afghans and foreigners across the political spectrum have been pushing hard for negotiations for several years, driven by concerns that the already-bloody insurgency could spiral into full-blown civil war when foreign forces have left.
> 
> *A key reason for the failure is the ambivalence of the Pakistani government, which in recent weeks appears to have backed away from support for the process.*
> 
> *The Afghan government says the demands are that ties with India be severed, that army officers be sent to Pakistan for training and that a strategic partnership deal be signed immediately.*
> 
> Unfortunately Pakistan today is changing the goalposts on its support for the peace process once again, said the Afghan foreign ministry spokesman, Janan Mosazai.
> 
> Pakistan somehow decided now to put down certain preconditions for its support for the peace process which are completely unacceptable to Afghanistan and to any other independent country.
> 
> The deterioration in ties has already had an impact: one senior Afghan source said flights organised by Pakistan for militants to Doha had already been halted. Without transport for negotiators, talks are unlikely to get very far.
> 
> The Taliban themselves have remained elusive, attacking top government negotiators and refusing to publicly embrace talks.
> 
> The Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, visited the Qatari capital, Doha, at the weekend, where a handful of Taliban have set up base since 2011.
> 
> Sever ties with India, Pakistan tells Afghanistan - Hindustan Times



Bwahahahahahahahhahahahahahah where piece of Gutteral from Hindustan times with NO such thing proven by it neither said by Pakistan.

 @nuclearpak can we allow such baseless claims?


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> Same Urdu English passport.



Lol. We would make it urdu completely. 

Yur argument is childish buddy. Admit it.


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## KingMamba

samantk said:


> I would hate to mention it but since you speak with your ego rather than logic, 1971 will serve as a grim rebuttal.
> 
> And I have seen many Pakistanis calling India a bully, the topic is not Kashmir since Pakistan is not clean too



1971 was an anomaly, not the norm. Commend India for its brilliant success but they only speeded up what was inevitable.


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## nair

Spring Onion said:


> Bwahahahahahahahhahahahahahah where piece of Gutteral from Hindustan times with NO such thing proven by it neither said by Pakistan.
> 
> 
> @nuclearpak can we allow such baseless claims?



I am sure you stopped reading from the Post 1 and wrote the above.... If you could read few more post, will help you in finding the answer for the question you raised to a mod......

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## Spring Onion

nair said:


> I am sure you stopped reading from the Post 1 and wrote the above.... If you could read few more post, will help you in finding the answer for the question you raised to a mod......



i dont need to because at no point Pakistan officially conveyed anything like that to Afghanistan neither we or anyone else can demand such a thing.


the best we or anyone can do is to deny any passage or levearage


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## nair

Spring Onion said:


> i dont need to because at no point Pakistan officially conveyed anything like that to Afghanistan neither we or anyone else can demand such a thing.
> 
> 
> the best we or anyone can do is to deny any passage or levearage



I dono how you know the detail of every official communication between paksitan and afganistan.... If you do then you must be knowing.... otherwise..... 

But i do agree with you on the last line....


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## SamantK

KingMamba93 said:


> 1971 was an anomaly, not the norm. Commend India for its brilliant success but they only speeded up what was inevitable.



Sure, you can spin it any way you want. Many say, including @Armstrong, @Spring Onion and @Kalu Miah that India was responsible for generating the discord at the first place and you come and say it was inevitable but India acted as a catalyst.

Whatever be the case, one point is clear Pakistanis have a divided view on the Indian hand in the creation of BD which also suggests that we achieved a lot plus shaming Pakistan for the genocide. Then Kargil an incident not very long ago, again from a position of disadvantage we turned the whole Pakistani rhetoric against them diplomatically. I am not even considering the military defeat (Internal situations notwithstandig cause you have only your generals and politicians to blame for) . That is a lot of hurting indeed but then you choose not to accept and I will leave it at that.

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## Spring Onion

samantk said:


> Sure, you can spin it any way you want. Many say, including @Armstrong, @Spring Onion and @Kalu Miah that India was responsible for generating the discord at the first place and you come and say it was inevitable but India acted as a catalyst.[/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever be the case, one point is clear Pakistanis have a divided view on the Indian hand in the creation of BD which also suggests that we achieved a lot plus shaming Pakistan for the genocide. *Then Kargil an incident not very long ago, again from a position of disadvantage we turned the whole Pakistani rhetoric against them diplomatically*. I am not even considering the military defeat (Internal situations notwithstandig cause you have only your generals and politicians to blame for) . That is a lot of hurting indeed but then you choose not to accept and I will leave it at that.



India was the one who established Terror camps for terrorist outfit.

Our politicians did have mistakes, but these werent that big to result in breakage.

anyway the region was hositile and stil is. India failed to impose its will on BD thats what summs up the event.

as far as kargil is concerned, i say we needed more preparation specially for securing supply routes, that would have been a big factor before India diplomatically had done anything.

but again plans are either for success or failure only after these are executed. we did and we must focus on our weak points for future plans.

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## SamantK

Spring Onion said:


> *India was the one who established Terror camps for terrorist outfit.*
> Our politicians did have mistakes, *but these werent that big to result in breakage*.
> 
> anyway the region was hositile and stil is. *India failed to impose its will on BD thats what summs up the event.*
> 
> as far as kargil is concerned, i say we needed more preparation specially for securing supply routes, that would have been a big factor before India diplomatically had done anything.
> 
> but again plans are either for* success or failure only after these are executed*. we did and we must focus on our weak points for future plans.



1. Where? When? Links?
2. @KingMamba93, I think she means that it was India's hand completely
3. What was India's will?
4. It still was a win on two fronts against Pakistan m and d. Kargil was not a plan, it was a self-goal

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## indushek

KingMamba93 said:


> No Pakistani thinks India is a bully, a bully can actually inflict damage on those weaker than it. India despite being stronger than Pakistan cannot do sht ergo India is not a bully. India is a punk that needs to stop killing innocent kashmiris.



Look language of the world and language of PDF are different, anyway when Pakistani's talk of India wrt Bangladesh Bhutan Nepal Srilanka they do bring up the bully word to talk of India.

India actually doesn't need to do any $h!t to Pakistan, you guys are being better than us by screwing yourselves.

If India is a Punk that kills then all those coming to die in my country are B...es for sure.

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## AHAM BRIHMASMI

smuhs1 said:


> Even without our intervention taliban will still going to kick all the indians out. Secondly pakistan is not acting alone as a lot of countries want a piece of afghan riches and i don't need to spell their name as it is very obvious.



How can they ? because thousand times I have heard my pakistani friends saying in this forum that talibans are being backed by India ? they are creation of RAW . Indeed, some pakistani friends in this forum have borrowed their tong from snake


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## Rig Vedic

LoveIcon said:


> How Sindhi share same ethnicity & language with North Indians? Only Punjab shares that also with Indian Punjab only - and complete Punjab was demand of Muslim League.



Sindhi, Punjabi and Urdu are based on Sanskrit, like many North Indian languages, and Nepali and Bengali. Pashto is in a different category. That is a fact.

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## Rig Vedic

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Im a Pakistani and a baluch by ethnicity... its u whose confused about his country.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol... so now ur "central asian"... never knew central asians had hindu or buddhist ancestors..



Actually Buddhism was once widespread in Central Asia. Even now there is a Republic of the Russian Federation, Kalmykia, which is Buddhist.


----------



## Pandora

tharkibuddha said:


> How can they ? because thousand times I have heard my pakistani friends saying in this forum that talibans are being backed by India ? they are creation of RAW . Indeed, some pakistani friends in this forum have borrowed their tong from snake



Well Taliban are not just one group. They are formed of different groups like TTP, Afghan Taliban, Hikmatyaar group, Hafiz Gul Bahadar group, TTP LI and this list goes on forever. Even the centeral TTP is now divided into 3-4 group on leadership issues. They just work under the same umbrella and before invasion some of the groups were actually fighting with each other.


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## Abingdonboy

I too doubt the Pakistanis would be this blunt with the Afghans. This isn't how diplomacy works in the real world.


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## JanjaWeed

Abingdonboy said:


> I too doubt the Pakistanis would be this blunt with the Afghans. *This isn't how diplomacy works in the real world*.



That's the key. Diplomacy doesn't work that way when it's handled by the diplomats. But Pakistan foreign policy is seldom handled by civilian diplomats.

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## Abingdonboy

JanjaWeed said:


> That's the key. Diplomacy doesn't work that way when it's handled by the diplomats. But Pakistan foreign policy is seldom handled by civilian diplomats.



Too true, after writing this post i was thinking along these lines and thinking "since when does Pakistan get what it wants and since when does its foreign policy meet Pakistan's national interests?"


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## JanjaWeed

Abingdonboy said:


> Too true, after writing this post i was thinking along these lines and thinking "since when does Pakistan get what it wants and since when does its foreign policy meet Pakistan's national interests?"



That's what you get when you are more accustomed to clandestine diplomacy. It's quite blatant the way things have developed off late. Whether it's do with the 'blood for drone' diplomacy or with asking US to spare bombing militants who are acting against Indian interest or this one, asking Afghan govt to drop relationship with India. These are all done with short term gain with long term implications. Then again that's how Pakistan conducted it's diplomacy right from the start.. whether by taking sides openly in cold war era or cultivate taliban culture by training them to fight against soviets or exchange prisoners for money. These are all done with short term interest in mind.. & seasoned diplomats don't go that route.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Monkey D Luffy said:


> Pakistan depends on U.S dollors so America is Pakistan's papa? India has 7 times more population than Pakistan so it is our uncle?....
> And Pakistan is not thousands of year old, it has age of only 65 years. India on the other hand is thousands of year old country. Pakistan is a country carved out of India.



You have quite a fan base from these short pipsqueak bhartis who you love to please so much 

Something on aid? You escaped from a country whose 99% of economy relies on foreign aid handouts  

Do you know how much Pak GDP growth would be affected by a cutoff in aid? Not even 1% 

Perhaps you are drug dealer "pharmacist" so you are providing great contribution to your afghan economy. 

You should move back there. I'm sure you will love it and be happy there. We will all pay for your ticket



Abingdonboy said:


> I too doubt the Pakistanis would be this blunt with the Afghans. This isn't how diplomacy works in the real world.



Afghan leadership have always been peasants and puppets. They should be thanking us for looking out for them all these years

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## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> You have quite a fan base from these short pipsqueak bhartis who you love to please so much
> 
> Something on aid? You escaped from a country whose 99% of economy relies on foreign aid handouts
> 
> Do you know how much Pak GDP growth would be affected by a cutoff in aid? Not even 1%
> 
> Perhaps you are drug dealer "pharmacist" so you are providing great contribution to your afghan economy.
> 
> You should move back there. I'm sure you will love it and be happy there. We will all pay for your ticket


Mr Think Tank, We would appreciate, if you do not bring your racist mentality and offend my nationality over here, there are quite a few adjectives that we can throw around here to reply to you ignorant and bigoted rants, but we choose not to do so. If you have anything positive to bring to the discussion than go ahead. If you want to insult Indians here by calling them weak willed and short, it just demonstrates your physical and mental complex. 

If you are on the team of PDF, at least learn some manners!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Abingdonboy said:


> Too true, after writing this post i was thinking along these lines and thinking "since when does Pakistan get what it wants and since when does its foreign policy meet Pakistan's national interests?"



I was going to say the same about Indian foreign diplomacy with regards to Pakistan 

Your pipsqueak funny looking diplomats who look more like toilet-janitors can't stop arms sales to Pakistan; can't even get any "credit" she thinks she deserves on Afghanistan policy; can't get Pakistan to hand over people like Hafiz Saeed; failed miserably to stop Pakistani small arms and artillery + armor to Sri Lanka during the crushing of militant Tamil movement

And you talk about "getting what wanted" 


Pipsqueaks

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## Abingdonboy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Afghan leadership have always been peasants and puppets. They should be thanking us or looking out for them all these years



What do you call "looking after them"? Cultivating a breed of savage monsters who terrorized the people of Afghanistan, imposed the most draconian and barbaric system of governance possible and obliterated the very idea of the nation of Afghanistan?


Jesus, with freinds like these-who needs enemies, eh?

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## MilSpec

Secur said:


> Fair enough it is ...
> 
> The Afghan Govt wants our help for these peace talks and since the world runs on quid pro quos , it will have to submit to our demands , the foremost being the " limiting " of their ties with India which aren't in our interests , the interference in FATA and Baluchistan and the terrorism planned and executed from Afghanistan is a serious problem originating from a significantly high number of consulates ( which somehow give the impression that either the Afghans are rich people or Afghanistan is a tourism or business hub ) the thing is that whatever happens in that country directly or indirectly affects us , hence the need to take measures to control it . If Karzai changes his aggressive stance towards Pakistan , stop the same old " Durand Line " rhetoric and doesn't allow anti-Pakistan activity from his soil *then I am sure we will reciprocate in kind *but at the moment , this is the state of affairs . Either do it or talk on your own , why involve us ?



Can you please shed some light of the reciprocity??


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was going to say the same about Indian foreign diplomacy with regards to Pakistan
> 
> Your pipsqueak funny looking diplomats who look more like toilet-janitors can't stop arms sales to Pakistan; can't even get any "credit" she thinks she deserves on Afghanistan policy; can't get Pakistan to hand over people like Hafiz Saeed; failed miserably to stop Pakistani small arms and artillery + armor to Sri Lanka during the crushing of militant Tamil movement
> 
> And you talk about "getting what wanted"
> 
> 
> Pipsqueaks

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## Abingdonboy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was going to say the same about Indian foreign diplomacy with regards to Pakistan
> 
> Your pipsqueak funny looking diplomats who look more like toilet-janitors can't stop arms sales to Pakistan; can't even get any "credit" she thinks she deserves on Afghanistan policy; can't get Pakistan to hand over people like Hafiz Saeed; failed miserably to stop Pakistani small arms and artillery + armor to Sri Lanka during the crushing of militant Tamil movement
> 
> And you talk about "getting what wanted"
> 
> 
> Pipsqueaks



When you are dealing with a nation and leadership as stubborn and beligerant as Pakistan what do expect the Indian diplomats to be able to do? Anything the Indian diplomats try and do the Pakistanis, you can assume, will do the opposite. Even the US, the most powerful nation on earth bar none, has not been able to bring Pakistan under control. What could India possibly achieve?


Leaving Pakistani-Indian ties alone, Indian diplomacy is almost the mirror opposite of the Pakistani. Indian interests are served more often than not or what do you call getting the Italian marines back (after your countrymen mocked India for never seeing them returned), Nuke deal (btw Pakistan asked for the same, did they get it-remind me?), close friendship with Israel and most of M.East etc etc 

What have your diplomats done on the world stage to compare? Pakistan is still looked upon as a rouge state who no one wants to touch.

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## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was going to say the same about Indian foreign diplomacy with regards to Pakistan
> 
> Your pipsqueak funny looking diplomats who look more like toilet-janitors can't stop arms sales to Pakistan; can't even get any "credit" she thinks she deserves on Afghanistan policy; can't get Pakistan to hand over people like Hafiz Saeed; failed miserably to stop Pakistani small arms and artillery + armor to Sri Lanka during the crushing of militant Tamil movement
> 
> And you talk about "getting what wanted"
> 
> 
> Pipsqueaks




Yes it is true, our meek and mellow policies towards pakistan needs to change, we should indeed stop negotiating with nation which uses terrorism as a state policy and then hides behind it's supreme court (which is a joke to begin with). 

As far as Pipsqueaks, look at your history......... a log of cowardice, deceit and mismanagement!!! big mighty pakistanis...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Abingdonboy said:


> When you are dealing with a nation and leadership as stubborn and beligerant as Pakistan what do expect the Indian diplomats to be able to do? Anything the Indian diplomats try and do the Pakistanis, you can assume, will do the opposite. Even the US, the most powerful nation on earth bar none, has not been able to bring Pakistan under control. What could India possibly achieve?
> 
> 
> Leaving Pakistani-Indian ties alone, Indian diplomacy is almost the mirror opposite of the Pakistani. Indian interests are served more often than not or what do you call getting the Italian marines back (after your countrymen mocked India for never seeing them returned), Nuke deal (btw Pakistan asked for the same, did they get it-remind me?), close friendship with Israel and most of M.East etc etc
> 
> What have your diplomats done on the world stage to compare? Pakistan is still looked upon as a rouge state who no one wants to touch.



But yet they come to us and insist we attend their conferences. Yet Pakistan Navy approached for international piracy operations support. We've been accused of proliferation of nuclear tech in the past but even despite not signing the NPT we are still viewed as a legit member of nuclear club and an arms exporter - without having been declared as "rogue" which is a word you and those mouthy people of yours use regularly 


And id rather be "stubborn" than be a pushover. We live in a very difficult and hostile region. Once we help clean up Afghanistan and remove a few irritants then at least western sector won't be as unruly as it is now hopefully. There'd then be some grounds for us to not be so "rogue" as you call it  

By the way, unlike in India - in Pakistan we may have extremists but none of them are actually in political power. Whereas your RSS/BJP nexus is neither new nor unfamiliar to hendostan political scene. Something to ponder

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## Areesh

sandy_3126 said:


> Yes it is true, our meek and mellow policies towards pakistan needs to change, we should indeed stop negotiating with nation which uses terrorism as a state policy and then hides behind it's supreme court (which is a joke to begin with).
> *
> As far as Pipsqueaks, look at your history......... a log of cowardice, deceit and mismanagement!!! big mighty pakistanis... *



What's your history? R@ping foreign tourists.

Anyways I would be happy if we have good relations with everyone except you guys. Friendship with your country is not acceptable.

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## Abingdonboy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> But yet they come to us and insist we attend their conferences. Yet Pakistan Navy approached for international piracy operations support. We've been accused of proliferation of nuclear tech in the past but even despite not signing the NPT we are still viewed as a legit member of nuclear club and an arms exporter - without having been declared as "rogue" which is a word you and those mouthy people of yours use regularly



This is only because Pakistan offers some strategic benefits for the West, they can't afford to call you a "rogue" state, it doesn't mean this isn't the general opinion of the leadership and intel communities.


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## Vinod2070

Abingdonboy said:


> When you are dealing with a nation and leadership as stubborn and beligerant as Pakistan what do expect the Indian diplomats to be able to do? Anything the Indian diplomats try and do the Pakistanis, you can assume, will do the opposite. Even the US, the most powerful nation on earth bar none, has not been able to bring Pakistan under control. What could India possibly achieve?
> 
> 
> Leaving Pakistani-Indian ties alone, Indian diplomacy is almost the mirror opposite of the Pakistani. Indian interests are served more often than not or what do you call getting the Italian marines back (after your countrymen mocked India for never seeing them returned), Nuke deal (btw Pakistan asked for the same, did they get it-remind me?), close friendship with Israel and most of M.East etc etc
> 
> *What have your diplomats done on the world stage to compare?* Pakistan is still looked upon as a rouge state who no one wants to touch.



Threatened the world with a gun to their own head.

It has worked like a charm. 

Only the inevitable is happening whether they pulled the trigger or not.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Sandy

with regards to karzai what reciprocity - is a hard question

The man sings a different tune every day. One day we are brothers and conjoined twin next day we are meddling.

NATO he visits their wounded soldiers at Walter Reed and thanks NATOS for their support of afghan people next day he accuse them of working/supporting with taleban and calls their invasion unjust etc 

You Indians should be prepared to deal with a post Karzai Afghanistan because his mental abilities and stability are in question and he's deeply unpopular


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## Areesh

Abingdonboy said:


> This is only because Pakistan offers some strategic benefits for the West, they can't afford to call you a "rogue" state, *it doesn't mean this isn't the general opinion of the leadership and intel communities*.



Did they tell you Indians personally what they think. Unless their thinking is exhibited by their policies towards Pakistan it means zilch.

And apparently they are doing exact opposite of what you Indians think about what they think. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...er-sale-major-defence-equipment-pakistan.html


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Vinod2070 said:


> Threatened the world with a gun to their own head.
> 
> It has worked like a charm.
> 
> Only the inevitable is happening whether they pulled the trigger or not.



Don't confuse our convoluted and confusing messed up domestic politics with our foreign policy matters

And yes even on foreign policy we've made mistakes - some correctable and some that would take time to correct. Has your foreign policy been genuinely successful? Yeah you got those marines back and they'll go home when Indian prisoners are swapped and instead languish in your prisons at state expense. Great deal. What about Sri Lanka?

I think india should learn to live at peace with her neighbours rather than engage in jingoistic banter. Don't you agree?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Abingdonboy said:


> This is only because Pakistan offers some strategic benefits for the West, they can't afford to call you a "rogue" state, it doesn't mean this isn't the general opinion of the leadership and intel communities.



Seems almost no different in India's case which is being used and as a "check" of sorts against China. Or so it's perceived at least. 

In fact india won a few handsome concessions itself too in order for this function to work no?


Eg civilian nuclear deal under previous admin, etc


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## MilSpec

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Sandy
> 
> with regards to karzai what reciprocity - is a hard question
> 
> The man sings a different tune every day. One day we are brothers and conjoined twin next day we are meddling.
> 
> NATO he visits their wounded soldiers at Walter Reed and thanks NATOS for their support of afghan people next day he accuse them of working/supporting with taleban and calls their invasion unjust etc
> 
> You Indians should be prepared to deal with a post Karzai Afghanistan because his mental abilities and stability are in question and he's deeply unpopular



Not many know this but real foriegn and mil policies in Afghanistan actually go through Gen Fahim, and his bunch, I dont think there is any way post 2014, there can be any consolidation where the inner circle of Late Ahmed Shah Massoud will loose any significance. Those are our guys in kabul, and Indeed you are correct that we need to find and better relations with Pashtun leaders, India had started developing good relations with Abdul Haq, but too bad he didn't survive.


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## INDIC

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was going to say the same about Indian foreign diplomacy with regards to Pakistan
> 
> Your pipsqueak funny looking diplomats who look more like toilet-janitors can't stop arms sales to Pakistan; can't even get any "credit" she thinks she deserves on Afghanistan policy; can't get Pakistan to hand over people like Hafiz Saeed; failed miserably to stop Pakistani small arms and artillery + armor to Sri Lanka during the crushing of militant Tamil movement
> 
> And you talk about "getting what wanted"
> 
> 
> Pipsqueaks



Keeping aside your delusions, Pakistan encounter with India is a bag full of failures,  Be it losing Kashmir and Junagarh in 1947, to failed Operation Gibraltar in 1965 to 1971 surrender, or debacle in Siachin and Kargil. Even the Kashmir insurgency backfired at Pakistan as TTP, even 5500 airstrikes on average in 4 years could not dislodge the militants and sacrificing 45,000 Pakistanis. 

while your strategic depth obsession in Afghanistan ended up Pakistan as an enemy of America. I saw how your closing of supply route for America ended up as a failure.

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## Vinod2070

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Don't confuse our convoluted and confusing messed up domestic politics with our foreign policy matters



It's an even bigger disaster. You run from one patron state to the next.

USA, Saudis, China... the list goes on. And the client relationship continues.



> And yes even on foreign policy we've made mistakes - some correctable and some that would take time to correct. Has your foreign policy been genuinely successful? Yeah you got those marines back and they'll go home when Indian prisoners are swapped and instead languish in your prisons at state expense. Great deal. What about Sri Lanka?



There is no comparison at all. No point in discussing individual issues.

What you think as mistakes have been disasters.

And unfortunately you are lumbering from one to the next.

You should not compare yourself to India but to the Afghans across the Durand. That is more real in every sense.



> I think india should learn to live at peace with her neighbours rather than engage in jingoistic banter. Don't you agree?



I agree.

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## Abingdonboy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Seems almost no different in India's case which is being used and as a "check" of sorts against China. Or so it's perceived at least.
> 
> In fact india won a few handsome concessions itself too in order for this function to work no?
> 
> 
> Eg civilian nuclear deal under previous admin, etc


The difference being, India uses its diplomatic advantages (whatever they are) to further its (peaceful) national ends and the Indian people. Pakistan uses them to blackmail these same nations into inaction whilst to goes around causing whatever mayhem it likes (selling nuke tech, training terrorists etc) to the detriment of the planet as a whole and, to a large extent, Pakistan itself. 

The reason for these differences is the fact that Pakistan is run by a small group of self-serving military men, India is a functioning democracy where the diplomatic cadre are entirely civilians and independent of any political affiliation. As such their primary interest is the well being of the Indian people, by and large.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

We almost lost Kashmir but Kashmiri freedom fighters and regular poorly equipped ones still managed to wrestle and retain what is now Azad Kashmir.

You can't claim you "won" Kashmir when the rebellion against the occupation forces (aka the sissies) has been going on off and on for the past several decades. Don't you know they "celebrate" your Independence Day with black flags, protests and bandhs. If you "won" it there'd be no need for mass graves, fake encounters, AFSPA etc and foreign journalists would have been allowed to cover the conflict (without India's fear of the truth and true ground realities being revealed)

As of late Pakistan hardly has any hands in the Kashmiri freedom struggle; not as much as I'd like though I'm not in charge. 

As for "enmity" with America - we have major differences with the Obama admin but I don't see any future enmity with America per se. Relations were one hell of a lot worse in 2011 than they are now though we'll have to wait till 2014 to see the extent of our relationship. Some on both sides call for total cutoff in ties while most people suggest "reassessment" or a pragmatic approach. It's a bad relationship at times in which interests directly clashed (mild understatement) but I don't see any actual divorce; our trade with the US is still quite substantial. If/when they are declared enemies then we can reply here years from now and rekindle the discussion.



Abingdonboy said:


> The difference being, India uses its diplomatic advantages (whatever they are) to further its (peaceful) national ends and the Indian people. Pakistan uses them to blackmail these same nations into inaction whilst to goes around causing whatever mayhem it likes (selling nuke tech, training terrorists etc) to the detriment of the planet as a whole and, to a large extent, Pakistan itself.
> 
> The reason for these differences is the fact that Pakistan is run by a small group of self-serving military men, India is a functioning democracy where the diplomatic cadre are entirely civilians and independent of any political affiliation. As such their primary interest is the well being of the Indian people, by and large.



On national security matters the military/MOD is taken into confidence on some issues. No big deal. Even in developed countries the intel/mil apparatus testify and give assessments or act based on assessments. 

How do you come up with all of this garble NOW - when a civilian govt (the worst in our history) just completed its term and elections are just around the corner 


Poorly timed statement buddy

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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> Keeping aside your delusions, Pakistan encounter with India is a bag full of failures,  Be it losing *Kashmir *and Junagarh in 1947, to failed Operation Gibraltar in 1965 to 1971 surrender, or debacle in Siachin and Kargil. Even the Kashmir insurgency backfired at Pakistan as TTP, even 5500 airstrikes on average in 4 years could not dislodge the militants and sacrificing 45,000 Pakistanis.
> 
> while your strategic depth obsession in Afghanistan ended up Pakistan as an enemy of America. I saw how your closing of supply route for America ended up as a failure.



The opposite is in fact true. You lost 45% of Kashmir to your two best friends. China and Pakistan.



> while your strategic depth obsession in Afghanistan ended up Pakistan as an enemy of America.



This would be the first time America would be approving arms sales for its own enemy. Lol. What a loose use of words by Indians.

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## Abingdonboy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> How do you come up with all of that when a civilian govt just completed its term and elections are around the corner
> 
> 
> Badly timed statement



First time in,what, 66 years? Wow! 


And what do we all think has happened to military masters who have been running the nation for the other 61 years? They are still there but they have now understood that the West isn't going to be happy been seen dealing with and supporting a dictatorship so they let "Mr ten percent" and his cronies be the "front men" for the govt whilst they keep the reigns. 



Do you honestly expect anyone to believe these generals, who have amassed so much power of the decades, have just walked away and given the civilian establishment full authority, without even so much as a single reform or policy change? Please, don't take us for fools.

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> The opposite is in fact true. You lost 45% of Kashmir to your two best friends. China and Pakistan.



But the Juglar veins(rivers) for which you attacked Kashmir in 47 and 65 is still with us even after losing East Pakistan. 




> This would be the first time America would be approving arms sales for its own enemy. Lol. What a loose use of words by Indians.



Because 2014 is still to come. Last time, before 1989 too they gave you lots of F-16 but after 1989 they gave you economic sanction.

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## Abingdonboy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> On national security matters the military/MOD is taken into confidence on some issues. No big deal. Even in developed countries the intel/mil apparatus testify and give assessments or act based on assessments.
> 
> How do you come up with all of this garble NOW - when a civilian govt (the worst in our history) just completed its term and elections are just around the corner
> 
> 
> Poorly timed statement buddy



There's taking into confidence and then there's being on puppet strings to their military masters as in the case of the GoP. 



How does giving Iran, Libya and N.Korea meet the national aspirations of the Pakistani PEOPLE?


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> But your Juglar veins(rivers) is still with us even after loosing half of your country.



And 35% of your *atoot ang* is with Pakistan. 10% is with China. 45% that you have might start boiling again. Who knows. 



> Because 2014 is still to come.



So now you are contradicting yourself. First USA and Pakistan were enemies but wait they are not. They need each other. So USA will support Pakistan. But they are enemies.

You are confused bachai. 



> Last time, before 1989 too they gave you lots of F-16 but after 1989 they gave you economic sanction.



Because of atomic program which has successfully completed and has stopped you to do something stupid after some drama happens in India.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Abingdonboy said:


> How does giving Iran, Libya and N.Korea meet the national aspirations of the Pakistani PEOPLE?



Well at least on Iran and Libya - that they are Muslim countries.

An individual (not the military) engaged in that type of conduct and added "liability" next to his title as national hero - it was a selfish act on his part.

On North Korea - same case (sold knowledge, models and components) not nuclear tech or materials 

And in latter case it was a barter. At the time our missile program was in prenatal stages. They had something we wanted we had something they wanted 

Looking to today - enlighten me on how Pakistan is a rogue state? And if we indeed are, it speaks volumes about countries that do trade with us, sell us weapons and invite us to attend Bonn, NATO, Davos, Anti Piracy or other such conferences 

Isn't it?




P.s. who started the arms race in the first place


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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> And 35% of your *atoot ang* is with Pakistan. 10% is with China. 45% that you have might start boiling again. Who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> So now you are contradicting yourself. First USA and Pakistan were enemies but wait they are not. They need each other. So USA will support Pakistan. But they are enemies.
> 
> You are confused bachai.


But who don't want LOC as IB, unlike your FATA we are not bombing villages with our Airforce in Baramulla or Anantnag.




> Because of atomic program which has successfully completed and has stopped you to do something stupid after some drama happens in India.



What was Pakistan economic condition in 1989 and right now.  American are tolerating you because they need thd supply route evacation, they won't tolerate you after 2014. Even China reached to India over the Taliban getting control of Afghanistan and spillover in Xinjiang.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Abingdonboy said:


> First time in,what, 66 years? Wow!
> 
> 
> And what do we all think has happened to military masters who have been running the nation for the other 61 years? They are still there but they have now understood that the West isn't going to be happy been seen dealing with and supporting a dictatorship so they let "Mr ten percent" and his cronies be the "front men" for the govt whilst they keep the reigns.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you honestly expect anyone to believe these generals, who have amassed so much power of the decades, have just walked away and given the civilian establishment full authority, without even so much as a single reform or policy change? Please, don't take us for fools.



Polls show that the public is more supportive of military than the culture of cronyist incompetence introduced by Zardari during the past 5 difficult years.

Your opinion means little here.

We hope for strong institutions as does the Army so that it can remain depoliticized. 

As for completion of civilian term - better late than never; and that too despite blunder after blunder by PPP and their coalition govt. 

The generals you talk about are war heros and they earned their rank. They didn't buy them nor did they grease any palms. Merit got them to where they are.

And as I said earlier - army has say in national security matters that affect Pakistans security. And it shall continue to be that way in the future as well, hopefully.


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> But who don't want LOC as IB, unlike your FATA we are not bombing villages with our Airforce in Baramulla or Anantnag.



You want to convert LOC into IB. May be because you know you aren't going to get them back. 

You love to bring this airforce thingy in every other thread. FATA is not Kashmir and you have used various other violations against civilians to counter insurgency in IOK. The death of 100+ kids of age 16-22 in the summer of 2010 is one of them.



> What was Pakistan economic condition in 1989 and right now.



Pakistan economic condition is not just related to US sanctions. Pakistan survived very well with those sanctions.



> American are tolerating you because they need thd supply route evacation, they won't tolerate you after 2014.



So Pakistan and USA are not enemies? Make your mind buddy. You switching sides on this.



> Even China reached to India over the Taliban getting control of Afghanistan and spillover in Xinjiang.



Good for them. But at the same time they don't give a sh!t to India's concerns when it comes issues like their presence in construction activities in AJK And GB or their take over of Gawadar. Wonder why is that!!!


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## Abingdonboy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> And if we indeed are, it speaks volumes about countries that do trade with us, sell us weapons and invite us to attend Bonn, NATO, Davos, Anti Piracy or other such conferences
> 
> Isn't it?



You are indeed right on this point sir. To serve their own ends the West have completely left the issue of Pakistan to one side.


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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> You want to convert LOC into IB. May be because you know you aren't going to get them back.
> 
> You love to bring this airforce thingy in every other thread. FATA is not Kashmir and you have used various other violations against civilians to counter insurgency in IOK. The death of 100+ kids of age 16-22 in the summer of 2010 is one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan economic condition is not just related to US sanctions. Pakistan survived very well with those sanctions.
> 
> 
> 
> So Pakistan and USA are not enemies? Make your mind buddy. You switching sides on this.
> 
> 
> 
> Good for them. But at the same time they don't give a sh!t to India's concerns when it comes issues like their presence in construction activities in AJK And GB or their take over of Gawadar. Wonder why is that!!!



Conditions in Pakistani provinces of KPK, FATA and Balochistan are worse than Kashmir so are the casualties. Meanwhile you can watch this video about American perception of Pakistan.


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> *Conditions in Pakistani provinces of KPK, FATA and Balochistan* are worse than Kashmir so are the casualties. Meanwhile you can watch this video about American perception of Pakistan.



None of them are disputed territories either. And GB and AJK are far better than IOK for that matter. 

Thanks for the video. There govt as you admit is bound to support Pakistan for various reasons. That matters.

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> None of them are disputed territories either. And GB and AJK are far better than IOK for that matter.
> 
> Thanks for the video. There govt as you admit is bound to support Pakistan for various reasons. That matters.



But we don't consider Kashmir as disputed.  Check the freedom house rating for Pak--occupied Kashmir. Durand Line is a disputed border.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Abingdonboy said:


> You are indeed right on this point sir. To serve their own ends the West have completely left the issue of Pakistan to one side.



They've extended "courtesies" to you too soo it works both ways

E.g. The witch hunt against Fai and the Kashmir Action Council


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## Abingdonboy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> They've extended "courtesies" to you too soo it works both ways
> 
> E.g. The witch hunt against Fai and the Kashmir Action Council



Indeed, the West have entirely left the Kashmir issue alone in effect. They could make things VERY awkward for India on the Kashmir but have made a smart call to put their own interests first before preaching to India on a topic that would undoubtedly rile all Indians up.


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## indushek




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## afghanis_hehe

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Im a Pakistani and a baluch by ethnicity... its u whose confused about his country.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol... so now ur "central asian"... never knew central asians had hindu or buddhist ancestors..



wel these afghanis are actually having identity crisis.. whats afghans dnt know is that this pakistan was the country where alot of invaders came and married and gave birth toooo.. so thats the reason u can find all type of people in pakistan .. 
they the afghani pashtuns want to steal the history that the pakistani pashtuns hold and on the other hand dont want to call the peshwarys real pashtuns .. tajiks on the other hand want to be iranian but theyare treated like **** in iran .. uzbek hazara are nice people who these afghanis hate the most .. acc to them everybody is indian except them who were undrer the rule of same turks and persians since 1 century or before too as the area which is pakistan india .. they forgot that the descendanst of these turks and persians are in pakistan india not in afghanistan .. 
they were hindus like all other in subcontinet as proved by long reign of kabul shahi dynasty for 6 centuries.. alot of lies that they hold which i dont have enough space to write


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> But we don't consider Kashmir as disputed.  Check the freedom house rating for Pak--occupied Kashmir. _* Durand Line is a disputed border. ;*_)



According to you and Afghans. Not for the rest of the world.

It doesn't matter whether you consider it as disputed or not, since it is disputed. Fact. And don't bring that freedom thing of AJK again. It has been discussed enough.

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> According to you and Afghans. Not for the rest of the world.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether you consider it as disputed or not, since it is disputed. Fact. And don't bring that freedom thing of AJK again. It has been discussed enough.



We too don't recognize Kashmir as disputed, because Kashmir's ruler neither signed an accession or surrender paper to Pakistan. Like Durand line, Kashmir is also one sided.


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## The SC

To stay on topic, Yindous have economic reasons (Billions of dollars already invested in some mining activities or for buying mines; to get advantage of the chaotic situation and the very urgent need of Afghanistan for ca$h, a tactic leaded by the occupiers!) to be in Afghanistan apart from trying to surround Pakistan (too many consulates to be innocent of intelligence gathering -with USsrael; the US and Indian nuclear activities permissions are but a hint to some form of compensation!!! -
Concerning Pakistan, it has a few million Afghan refugees living on its land for decades now, apart from having so much in common with Afghanistan that yindous do not share with them, hence the concerns of Pakistan...


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> *We too don't recognize Kashmir as disputed*, because Kashmir's ruler neither signed an accession or surrender paper to Pakistan. Like Durand line, Kashmir is also one sided.



Your recognition doesn't matter. It is disputed. No wonder it is called Line of control instead of international border. It is called line of control for some reason bachai.


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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> Your recognition doesn't matter. It is disputed. No wonder it is called Line of control instead of international border. It is called line of control for some reason bachai.



Even the durand Line only exist on paper and people really don't need passport to move to both sides. 

Your one sided K-obsession holds no importance.


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> *Even the durand Line only exist on paper and people really don't need passport to move to both sides. *
> 
> Your one sided K-obsession holds no importance.



It is an international border for everyone except weed smoking Afghans and some troll Indians.

We are a party to K issue. Whether you accept or not.


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## foxbat

Areesh said:


> It is an international border for everyone except weed smoking Afghans and some troll Indians.
> 
> We are a party to K issue. Whether you accept or not.



You certainly are a party to the Kashmir Issue and I dont think anyone has an issue with that. Some even believe that  the Monkey Trap
is intentional on India's part (though I personally doubt it)


On the other hand, while Durand line is not a UN recognized disputed area, the ground situation there is probably worse than the situation of all disputed areas in the world put together.


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## Areesh

foxbat said:


> You certainly are a party to the Kashmir Issue and I dont think anyone has an issue with that. Some even believe that  the Monkey Trap
> is intentional on India's part (though I personally doubt it)



Many delusional have an issue with that too and think Pakistan is not a party to the dispute. This monkey trap story is also irrelevant and is also someone's biased opinion..



> On the other hand, while Durand line is not a UN recognized disputed area, the ground situation there is probably worse than the situation of all disputed areas in the world put together.



Fine. That doesn't make it disputed either. You also admit it.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was going to say the same about Indian foreign diplomacy with regards to Pakistan
> 
> Your pipsqueak funny looking diplomats who look more like toilet-janitors



Since when did physical characteristics or presentation of diplomats matter?  even for some Indo-phobic pseudo-masculine tribal savages?



> can't stop arms sales to Pakistan;


Ok!



> can't even get any "credit" she thinks she deserves on Afghanistan policy;



When did India seek any credit for any issue?

Our Afghan policy is stability of Afghanistan to ensure peace in Kashmir and keep foreign influence out of the subcontinent.




> can't get Pakistan to hand over people like Hafiz Saeed;



USA couldn't manage to get Osama to be handed over , what chance do we stand 




> failed miserably to stop Pakistani small arms and artillery + armor to Sri Lanka during the crushing of militant Tamil movement



When did India even protest any of this?



> And you talk about "getting what wanted"



If it is jealousy and insecurity of Pakistanis over Indian policy in Afghanistan what we wanted, India certainly achieved it 




> Pipsqueaks



Degenerate tribal savages!

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## INDIC

Areesh said:


> It is an international border for everyone except weed smoking Afghans and some troll Indians.
> 
> We are a party to K issue. *Whether you accept or not.*



But trying hard to convince us.


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## Areesh

Gigawatt said:


> But trying hard to convince us.



Not convincing you. Even you know that. Just don't want to admit it.

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## IamINDIA

Pakistanis think that anything that is good for them is also good for Afghanistan.


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## afghanis_hehe

IamINDIA said:


> Pakistanis think that anything that is good for them is also good for Afghanistan.



yes because we are keeping there 3 million afghan refugees for freee ..what the hell are u yindus keeping.... u guys just want to stick their nose into every problem..why dont u stick ur nose somewhere else

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## IamINDIA

afghanis_hehe said:


> yes because we are keeping there 3 million afghan refugees for freee ..what the hell are u yindus keeping.... u guys just want to stick their nose into every problem..why dont u stick ur nose somewhere else



first of all its Hindus not yindus..
second of all i am a christian not a hindu
the state dose not pay for the refugees (uncle Sam does).... i am not sure if they can even be called refugees since they are so well looked after


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## INDIC

afghanis_hehe said:


> yes because we are keeping there 3 million afghan refugees for freee ..what the hell are u yindus keeping.... u guys just want to stick their nose into every problem..why dont u stick ur nose somewhere else



You gots lots of American aid, military eqipment and petrodollar in the name of these refugees.


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## afghanis_hehe

Gigawatt said:


> You gots lots of American aid, military eqipment and petrodollar in the name of these refugees.


no we got this aid against talibans .....and infact our country men from kpk were also in poor situation due to the floods so we need to take care of them too as that is our frst priority


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## Thorough Pro

In order to solve the problem, Pakistan wants the trouble maker out, simple as that.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Watch Amrullah Saleh taking on and putting down  3 Pakistanis alone in a Pak-Afghan debate. It is available on You Tube. 

Watch it and realise how delusional some Pakistanis are and which country it really is that the Afghans want to sever ties with.


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## r3alist

nick_indian said:


> Watch Amrullah Saleh taking on and putting down  3 Pakistanis alone in a Pak-Afghan debate. It is available on You Tube.
> 
> Watch it and realise how delusional some Pakistanis are and which country it really is that the Afghans want to sever ties with.



I saw this debate....saleh's performance was rather poor.

firstly it was against a spirit of the debate to get b*tchy and snidey.

in fact he got so heated up that he resorted to making overt threats of splitting pakistan up.
Yet a few minutes later he would emphasize the need for constructive corporation with pakistan, in short he very quickly lost his credibility as a reasonable person to engage with.

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## Gandhi G in da house

r3alist said:


> I saw this debate....saleh's performance was rather poor.
> 
> firstly it was against a spirit of the debate to get b*tchy and snidey.
> 
> in fact he got so heated up that he resorted to making overt threats of splitting pakistan up.
> Yet a few minutes later he would emphasize the need for constructive corporation with pakistan, in short he very quickly lost his credibility as a reasonable person to engage with.



Whatever it was, he shut the three Pakistanis up single handedly and they had no answer to any of the points he made which were all very valid.

I especially loved his response to that idiot journalist sitting in Pakistan who said that Saleh was still acting as if he was the intelligence chief in Afghanistan . Typical sign of losing a debate when you get personal and you have no response to his points.Something we see from the Pakistani side on this forum as well, very often, ironically. 

Saleh's response ? My position in any office in Afghanistan or lack of it has no bearing upon my sense of patriotism towards my country ... or something to this effect. Classic !


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## EXPERIMENT

Pakistanisage said:


> Pakistan calls the SHOTS, Bozos......
> 
> You can twist yourself into a PRETZEL but it won't help.
> 
> In the end what Pakistan says goes.
> 
> Any of you Indians care to make a bet ?
> 
> Just wait for 2014 and Afghan Taliban will do Pakistan's bidding and your Indian rear would be kicked out of Afghanistan.
> 
> Again, put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> I say you Indians will be out of Afghanistan by 2015.
> 
> Get used to it BOZOS................. Pakistan RULZZZZZZZ, BOZOS......



Finally someone speaks the truth. Thanks.

Pakistan needs a few more Afghan Officers Trained in Pakistan. I hope they bring their family along as well. Your training will also equip them for all their future causes.


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## EXPERIMENT

Gigawatt said:


> Bhatt/Batt are/were Saraswat Brahmins, they are found everywhere in India Kashmir, Konkan, Karnataka. I have a Bhatt friend from Karnataka.



I have 2, One from Kashmir the other from Gujarat


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## r3alist

nick_indian said:


> Whatever it was, he shut the three Pakistanis up single handedly and they had no answer to any of the points he made which were all very valid.
> 
> I especially loved his response to that idiot journalist sitting in Pakistan who said that Saleh was still acting as if he was the intelligence chief in Afghanistan . Typical sign of losing a debate when you get personal and you have no response to his points.Something we see from the Pakistani side on this forum as well, very often, ironically.
> 
> Saleh's response ? My position in any office in Afghanistan or lack of it has no bearing upon my sense of patriotism towards my country ... or something to this effect. Classic !



Well he was forcefull and outspoken....not sure he achieved much other than cheap thrills...so enjoy away....


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## Sinnerman108

nick_indian said:


> Watch Amrullah Saleh taking on and putting down  3 Pakistanis alone in a Pak-Afghan debate. It is available on You Tube.
> 
> Watch it and realise how delusional some Pakistanis are and which country it really is that the Afghans want to sever ties with.



They ... want a lot of things ... that does not mean they will get to do them.

All we need to do is close / seal the border.

Wait for some time ....

and then Enjoy !


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