# The Taliban will never be defeated



## waraich66

The Taliban will never be defeated
Colonel Imam, the Pakistani agent who trained Mullah Omar and the warlords to fight the Soviets, says the US must negotiate with its enemies
Taleban insurgents in Afghanistan

The Taliban have Nato forces trapped says 'Colonel Imam'. Eventually the West will tire
Christina Lamb in Rawalpindi
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THE Pakistani intelligence agent who trained Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, to fight has warned that Nato forces will never overpower their enemies in Afghanistan and should talk to them rather than sacrifice more lives.

You can never win the war in Afghanistan, said so-called Colonel Imam, who ran a training programme for the Afghan resistance to the Soviet Unions occupation from 1979 to 1989, then helped to form the Taliban.

I have worked with these people since the 1970s and I tell you they will never be defeated. Anyone who has come here has got stuck. The more you kill, the more they will expand.

A tall, bearded figure, whose real name is Amir Sultan Tarar, he trained at Fort Bragg, the US army base where Americas special forces are stationed.
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During the late 1970s and 1980s he controlled CIA-funded training camps for 95,000 Afghans and often accompanied his students on missions.

After the Soviet defeat and the collapse of communism, he was invited to the White House by the first President George Bush and was given a piece of the Berlin Wall with a brass plaque inscribed: To the one who dealt the first blow.

Today western intelligence agencies believe Imam is among a group of renegade officers from Pakistans Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI) who continued to help the Taliban after Pakistan turned against them following the attacks of September 11, 2001.

United Nations officials and Afghanistans intelligence service have reported sightings of him in the Afghan provinces of Helmand and Uruzgan. It is a charge he shrugs off, claiming that at 65 he has not worked for almost eight years.

I wish I could do it but they dont need me any more, he says. My students are far ahead of me now. They are giving a lesson to the world. I am very proud of them.

Although he expresses great admiration for the British military (far more gallant than the Americans), Imam says that in sending troops to Helmand, Britain had forgotten its previous wars in Afghanistan.

In particular, he chides, they should have remembered the battle of Maiwand in 1880, in which 2,500 British troops took on 25,000 Afghans and suffered a devastating defeat.

When people in Helmand heard the British were coming back, the cry went up all over: Remember Maiwand? Our old enemy has come to the same area where they were once defeated to take revenge. Then everyone, Taliban and nonTaliban, joined together. They told me on the phone, Dont worry, well make sure the Brits dont have an easy time.

His comments come as the number of British soldiers killed by enemy action in Afghanistan has risen to 137, one more than the number who have died in Iraq.

According to Imam, Helmand is particularly difficult because of the character of the people. They couldnt care less about loss of property or loss of life, he said.

It is unlikely that anybody alive today knows the Afghans as well as Imam. All the key figures were trained in his camps, from the late Ahmad Shah Massoud, the Lion of Panj-shir, to warlords such as Gul-buddin Hekmatyar, his naughtiest student. It was a matter of pride for me that my students later became big commanders, he said.

The Afghan is a very cunning soldier, he added. He picks things up very quickly and never forgets. As a Pakistani unit commander Id be training my men for six months and maybe they would remember 70%. But in Afghanistan teenagers came, had only three days weapon training and they remembered 100%. In just 15 days they mastered the Stinger [the shoulder-mounted surface-to-air missile].

Omar passed through his camps in 1985. He was a simple man, a small commander leading a maximum of 40 people and didnt have much weaponry, Imam recalled.

One of Imams biggest backers was Congressman Charlie Wilson, the Texan who was instrumental in securing funding for Operation Cyclone, the CIA programme to supply arms with which the mujaheddin would fight the Soviet troops.

He used to dance with happiness at seeing our training camps, said Imam.

Within 10 years the Russians had been forced out. Total expenditure just $5 billion and not a single American life, said Imam. Now the Americans are spending hundreds of billions and losing hundreds of lives.

The last time he saw Wilson was after the 1988 Geneva accords on the Soviet withdrawal. Imam told him: Youre abandoning the Afghans. They need financial support for rehabilitation. Wilson replied: Dollars dont grow on trees. Do Afghan youth grow on trees? asked Imam. Over 1.5m Afghans have died.

Furious at the American betrayal and devastated by the resulting infighting in the Afghan resistance, he became close to Omar. I love him, he said. He brought peace to Afghanistan.

Imam was Pakistans consul-general in Herat when the Taliban captured the city in 1995 from Ismail Khan, the mujaheddin commander, who claims the ISI agent oversaw the whole Taliban operation. From there he guided the Taliban as they took over the cities of Mazar-e-Sharif and Jalalabad and eventually captured Kabul.

Like many Pakistanis he refuses to believe the September 11 attacks were carried out by Osama Bin Laden. An operation like that needs ground support, he said. I have no doubt it was carried out by the Americans to give a bad name to the Taliban government as an excuse to topple it.

When General Pervez Musharraf, then president of Pakistan, agreed to American pressure to cut ties to the Taliban, the colonel was outraged.

Recalled to Islamabad, he told Musharraf: You cannot defeat these people, they are well trained, they have a lot of ammunition and the more you kill, the more supporters will come.

Today he adds: It was the blunder of his life and because of it we are all doomed.

Imam left Afghanistan when the US bombing of the country ceased in 2001 and claims he has not returned. I can go any time on my old routes, even the Americans cannot stop me, but there is no need, he said. I have friends roaming all over there. At times they give me a call, they like to hear my voice.

Im quite happy with the current situation because the Americans are trapped there. The Taliban will not win but in the end the enemy will tire, like the Russians.

He has offered to find the Americans a way out: We can give them a face-saving solution but they must change their strategy.

First, he says, they must spend billions on reconstruction. Then they must open talks with Omar rather than the so-called moderate Taliban with whom negotiations are under way.

When are you people going to understand there are no number two Taliban? he asked. Those who break away from mainstream Taliban have no place in society. You may make deals in Dubai or Saudi Arabia, but when they come back to Afghanistan and people know they have compromised with the Americans, they are finished.

In Afghanistan the only man who can make a decision and people listen is Mullah Omar. Hes a very reasonable man. He would listen and work for the interests of his country.

He insisted the Taliban leader was not in Pakistan: Hes in the hills of Uruzgan, his home province. If theres a requirement he will listen to me, but why should I get him involved in a risky situation?

Imam said he had watched with horror as fighting spread into Pakistan and had been shocked to see his fellow officers having to fight against their own countrymen in the Swat district.

These are not Taliban, they are tribals, he said. Mullah Omar told them time and time again not to fight against Pakistan. They are fighting against the government of Pakistan because it is supporting the enemies of Islam. Everybody knows our government is supporting the US drone attacks in our own area.

This is an American plan to make us a subjugated country and have an excuse to get our nukes. Everybody, your prime minister, President Obama, all go, Oh, the nuclear weapons are unsafe. I say youre making them unsafe. When you were not in the region there was no problem.

The call for prayer brings our interview to an end. Before he goes he has one last warning: I tell you when my nation rises up it is not Afghanistan, not Iraq. There will be tremendous killing.

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## Solomon2

The article is from 6/7/2009. link

Colonel Imam accurately notes the fate of the British in Maiwand in 1880, pointing out that part of the reason for their failure was lack of popular support. I would hazard a guess that Tarar is too close to his former proteg&#233;s to recognize that that support nowadays is more likely to belong to the Afghan government and the U.S.-led coalition, rather than the Taliban - even if a populace subject to Taliban occupation is too frightened to say so.

Am I wrong? Ask you countrymen in Swat...


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## waraich66

Solomon2 said:


> The article is from 6/7/2009. link
> 
> Colonel Imam accurately notes the fate of the British in Maiwand in 1880, pointing out that part of the reason for their failure was lack of popular support. I would hazard a guess that Tarar is too close to his former protegés to recognize that that support nowadays is more likely to belong to the Afghan government and the U.S.-led coalition, rather than the Taliban - even if a populace subject to Taliban occupation is too frightened to say so.
> 
> Am I wrong? Ask you countrymen in Swat...



What was reason of failure of Russian , they had double forces then ISAF? are they lacking supplies? i dont think so


Talaban needed Gurrilla training against Russians , which was provided by ISI/CIA , now they can trained their fighter themself .

Other important factors for effective gurrilla warfare are local environmental support and congo (fighting spirit) which ISAF dont have


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## PWFI

Personnely, i think Afgan talibans="Army of MAHADI" !
NO ONE CAN defeat THEM BY FORCE !

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## Solomon2

> i think Afgan talibans="Army of MAHADI"


What would it take to convince you otherwise?


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## Gazzi

PWFI said:


> Personnely, i think Afgan talibans="Army of MAHADI" !
> NO ONE CAN defeat THEM BY FORCE !



This is dangerous talk, please refrain from it. Are you aware of the consequences of such a claim..........by God, every youth, everywhere will join them....it is compulsory upon every able bodied person to join them.........there has to be a religious body that makes this sort of claim..


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The reason why talibans are causing a problem is as follow

When 1-2 Talibans are killed their cousines and brother or friend pick up arms 

Every time 1 is killed - 6 more ppl join the battle and pick up arms, and they don't need to necessarily be full time Taliban they will dig their weapons underground , and suitable just pick it up again

Predetor drones may seem sophistically but in realitistic terms they anger the populations of Afghan to pick up arms - and tradtionally they value their friends and kins much, even if it that means war with US ...

This is a basic problem is what Americans don't understand , if you will take a water squirter and squirt the lion in eye and then expect to pet it and hug it , the lion will obviously grab your throat.

When ppl who live as sheap herders are left along to farm their lands and take their sheeps to mountains , there will be no problem they will communicate , if you use missiles they will pick up gungs

Many civilizations have come to end , after getting caught up in Afghanistan -

a) The first thing that must be done is give Pakistan 80 Apache , helicoptors, so our 
operations againts the talibans can be intensified (against armed men)
b) Protection of villages or areas that oppose Taliban , and protection for schools
c) Ban on Arms , in the region and hiring of local afghan as police officers with training
d) Availability of food , and water , and electricity 

If you want to win hearts of nation give them food/water/electricity 

Not preditor missile launched at their homes at night


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## The Patriot

taliban are terrorists and history has shown that terrorists never succeed. Even if there is no ISAF or NATO these terrorists would have been slaughtered one day by their own people.

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## dabong1

The intelligent thing to do in my opinion is for the US to pull out of the pushtoon areas and set up a base in the northern alliance areas......this gives a guarantee that the taliban or anybody else will not overrun the country.
The taliban should take over the pushtoon areas under the eyes of pakistan and let the shias have the backing of iran.
They should make kabul a united city with with all three faction running affairs and the central govt is split three ways also.
If this can be achieved we then move onto total reconstruction.
The US can concerntrate on to the real danger of international terrorisim and direct its resources towards the real enemy rather then a nationalistic guerrilla army.......it always reminds of vietnam where the US thought it was fighting communisim when infact it was fighting a nationalist force.


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## Desert Fox

Mark my words, *Taliban will never (and i mean never) be defeated!*

I don't care how much you know about war, or your expertise but mark my words!

There can be a solution through reconciliation but militarily they can not be defeated!

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## SparklingCrescent

SilentNinja said:


> Mark my words, *Taliban will never (and i mean never) be defeated!*
> 
> I don't care how much you know about war, or your expertise but mark my words!
> 
> There can be a solution through reconciliation but militarily they can not be defeated!




well said ... U.S (aka the superpower ) sukksss, almost 9 years at war with Afghan Taliban, and loosing. theyr gonna get their @$$e$ kicked out of Afghan.. youll see.. 

Lets say U.S gets defeated, and Taliban govern Afghanistan again.... who becomes superpower ???

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## FreekiN

And OP thumbed this up? 

Resistance my foot.

Of course they won't be 'defeated' but it would only be better for everyone else if they would just surrender.


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## waraich66

The Patriot said:


> taliban are terrorists and history has shown that terrorists never succeed. Even if there is no ISAF or NATO these terrorists would have been slaughtered one day by their own people.



Afghans had their own justice system and no doubt they were involved in many Haram activities as per Islam ie Riba,Norcotics,bloodshed,selling of their daughters,homosexuality etc but Talaban were little better then war lords .

Thausand of years of old traditions could not be changed in five years of Talaban rule , minimum time to built a nation is 13 -23 years .

If they are practicing basic fundamentals of islam and performing *amir bil marouf nahi munkir* then no power could destroy them even US use WMD against them.

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## SparklingCrescent

a little off topic.. lol... but good stuff i found..

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## Awesome

Well its true that the Taliban may never be defeated in Afghanistan or their capability to always resurge may be not be defeated, they will have to be suppressed all the time and that is possible.

Problem is Nato has made this an anti-Pashtoon Afghan drive (as per perceptions). The same thing was marketed in Pakistan too, but in Pakistan national solidarity is infinitely more stronger than Afghan national solidarity. The Afghan government has done zilch for national reconciliation. Even today one type of Afghan is ready to kill the other type of Afghan. In such an environment, when Taliban says they are out to kill the Pashtoon and we're fighting for the Pashtoon (garnished with their fight for Islam) they generate plenty of support from Afghanistan.

To defeat the Taliban you'll have to kill all Pashtoon in Afghanistan and your own western public won't let your governments ever do that.


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## waraich66

Asim Aquil said:


> Well its true that the Taliban may never be defeated in Afghanistan or their capability to always resurge may be not be defeated, they will have to be suppressed all the time and that is possible.
> 
> Problem is Nato has made this an anti-Pashtoon Afghan drive (as per perceptions). The same thing was marketed in Pakistan too, but in Pakistan national solidarity is infinitely more stronger than Afghan national solidarity. The Afghan government has done zilch for national reconciliation. Even today one type of Afghan is ready to kill the other type of Afghan. In such an environment, when Taliban says they are out to kill the Pashtoon and we're fighting for the Pashtoon (garnished with their fight for Islam) they generate plenty of support from Afghanistan.
> 
> To defeat the Taliban you'll have to kill all Pashtoon in Afghanistan and your own western public won't let your governments ever do that.




No need to kill all Pushtoon or Taliban , Enemies of Islam have more lethal and effective weapon which shall be used to destroy their morale values and faith through western punk culture (music, alcohol, adultery, riba (interest based system),corrupt leadership, sectarianism etc .

They know real power of Islam is in their values and faith.The day Talaban accept their system same day US NATO will stop war in Afghanistan.

They feel real danger from Islamic values and faith and shariah law which is totally different from capitalism and imperialism and which need free and independent environment to practically implement.


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## S-2

*"Problem is Nato has made this an anti-Pashtoon Afghan drive (as per perceptions)."*

Perceptions are fickle and, in your case, unsubstantiated but, further, don't explain why the pashtuns aren't all dead or that a pashtun like Karzai sits as President. Weak argument and you know it. There's no anti-pashtun agenda here. ISAF/America would very much like Pashtuns to hold their rightful share of power.

It is pashtun taliban whom prevent them from such. Funny that most here could care less that it is Pashtun taliban whom killed two-thirds of all afghans last year. However, most here are Pakistani with designs to dominate Afghanistan so that's understandable I suppose.

Thanks.

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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> No need to kill all Pushtoon or Taliban , Enemies of Islam have more lethal and effective weapon which shall be used to destroy their morale values and faith through western punk culture (music, alcohol, adultery, riba (interest based system),corrupt leadership, sectarianism etc .
> 
> They know real power of Islam is in their values and faith.The day Talaban accept their system same day US NATO will stop war in Afghanistan.
> 
> They feel real danger from Islamic values and faith and shariah law which is totally different from capitalism and imperialism and which need free and independent environment to practically implement.



I am a Muslim i believe in my religion, though i am a muslim who do many things that are against teaching of islam but no way on earth am i going to accept the Taliban Version of Islam
Taliban are doing no good to people of Afghanistan & Pakistan & to Islam they are Barbarians who are out for Blood & power by using Islam they gaining the 'emotional support' of uneducated people who don't know the real Islam they believe in what they are TOLD

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## Awesome

S-2 said:


> *"Problem is Nato has made this an anti-Pashtoon Afghan drive (as per perceptions)."*
> 
> Perceptions are fickle and, in your case, unsubstantiated but, further, don't explain why the pashtuns aren't all dead or that a pashtun like Karzai sits as President. Weak argument and you know it. There's no anti-pashtun agenda here. ISAF/America would very much like Pashtuns to hold their rightful share of power.
> 
> It is pashtun taliban whom prevent them from such. Funny that most here could care less that it is Pashtun taliban whom killed two-thirds of all afghans last year. However, most here are Pakistani with designs to dominate Afghanistan so that's understandable I suppose.
> 
> Thanks.


Have you ever seen Afghans discuss politics? Its all emotion, no substance, no logic.

Taliban is an ideology, not an organization. The ideology has many components. Karzai can be explained as an American agent. The Taliban take credit for the Pashtoons that live as their saviors. The other thing that is packaged is that you guys are out to make Pashtoon their slaves. Major Ego hurt here, for the Pashtoon once you talk about their subjugation.

Its very hard to explain the Pashtoon mindset. But that mindset is the best weapon the Taliban have. Its important that the Nato puts in an effort to understand it.

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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> I am a Muslim i believe in my religion, though i am a muslim who do many things that are against teaching of islam but no way on earth am i going to accept the Taliban Version of Islam
> Taliban are doing no good to people of Afghanistan & Pakistan & to Islam they are Barbarians who are out for Blood & power by using Islam they gaining the 'emotional support' of uneducated people who don't know the real Islam they believe in what they are TOLD



Battle field is acid test of any nation's strength , from last eight years Talaban passed this test but ISAF failed miserably.

ISAF have no option left other than to talk with Mullah Omar , they had used all their cards


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## S-2

"Have you ever seen Afghans discuss politics?"

Yes. Actually I have.

*"Its all emotion, no substance, no logic..."*

Allow me to quote you from another thread-

_"Without a doubt, it will be slim pickings for anyone from Pakistan, China or India. Our countries have set new lows in absolute crap bickering throughout 2009. We can't take difference of opinions, we can't tolerate the other sides point of view, if I say you have this thing bad, instead of acknowledging or refuting it, the response would be "Oh yeah you suck too and I have pictures of Slums/Terrorists to prove it".

Our countrymen come with heavy duty agendas, as if they will launch their world domination schemes off defence.pk."_

See where I'm going? Needless to say, this American is more than occasionally guilty of unrepentant anger as well. So? 

*"Karzai can be explained as an American agent. The Taliban take credit for the Pashtoons that live as their saviors. The other thing that is packaged is that you guys are out to make Pashtoon their slaves..."*

I concur. The taliban are very adept information warriors but that wasn't what YOU said, sir.

Here's your comment if I may-

_"Problem is Nato has made this an anti-Pashtoon Afghan drive (as per perceptions)."_

NATO hasn't done so whatsoever. That the taliban would manufacture this message is expected. That others *here* would pick up that cry is painful, unfortunate, and unnecessary. We talk of a "_trust deficit_" among Americans and Pakistanis. It's real enough.

The greater trust deficit, however, exists between Pakistanis and Afghans. It will continue so long as Afghans know Haqqani and Hekmatyar send their suicide bombers across the border from Miram Shah. Someday you must make real peace with all Afghans-Pashtuns, tajiks, hazara, uzbeks, turkomen and Baloch. 

That will be the only assurance of an Afghanistan that can only be dominated by Afghans for afghans. Not Pakistanis. Not Iranians. Not Indians. Then you'll be secure on your western borders as never before.

Thanks.

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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> I am a Muslim i believe in my religion, though i am a muslim who do many things that are against teaching of islam but no way on earth am i going to accept the Taliban Version of Islam
> Taliban are doing no good to people of Afghanistan & Pakistan & to Islam they are Barbarians who are out for Blood & power by using Islam they gaining the 'emotional support' of uneducated people who don't know the real Islam they believe in what they are TOLD



Every nation has right to defend their home land , Afghan are defending their home land , do you agree or not?

If during their war against invaders any one support invaders , they should also fight with these infedels or not ?

Please dont mix TTP with AT .

We are not discussing here about version of Islam of Talaban , 
point of discussion here is that fight against invader is valid or not.

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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> Every nation has right to defend their home land , Afghan are defending their home land , do you agree or not?
> 
> If during their war against invaders any one support invaders , they should also fight with these infedels or not ?
> 
> Please dont mix TTP with AT .



When did a clan of people from all over the world became a 'nation', Some Uzebks, Saudis, Some Yemeni, Egyptians, Pakistanis gearing up for the 'Greater good of God' are no NATION, i repeat no NATION
If they were ever interested in development of Afghanistan they could have done good things, Tell me one just one University they opened for the people of Afghanistan, Development Projects
Thugs are thugs no matter from where they are, They defend their Home land by killing their own people, Now you can say that they are all consumable for the 'Greater good of God & Afghanistan'




> We are not discussing here about version of Islam of Talaban ,
> point of discussion here is that fight against invader is valid or not.



what was i to make out of these line of yours 



> They know real power of Islam is in their values and faith.The day Talaban accept their system same day US NATO will stop war in Afghanistan.
> 
> They feel real danger from Islamic values and faith and shariah law which is totally different from capitalism and imperialism and which need free and independent environment to practically implement.

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## FreekiN

Can't we just kill them all? Good Taliban or not? Some of us just want to get back to our lives.


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> When did a clan of people from all over the world became a 'nation', Some Uzebks, Saudis, Some Yemeni, Egyptians, Pakistanis gearing up for the 'Greater good of God' are no NATION, i repeat no NATION
> If they were ever interested in development of Afghanistan they could have done good things, Tell me one just one University they opened for the people of Afghanistan, Development Projects
> Thugs are thugs no matter from where they are, They defend their Home land by killing their own people, Now you can say that they are all consumable for the 'Greater good of God & Afghanistan'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what was i to make out of this line of yours



Remember one thing , zoinist and neo cons wanted to weaken all muslim powers from which they feel danger, they destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan and now Pakistan is their next target.

I agree with you talaban had done mistakes but now they are fighting war of Pakistan .


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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> *Remember one thing , zoinist and neo cons wanted to weaken all muslim powers from which they feel danger, they destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan* and now Pakistan is their next target.
> 
> *I agree with you talaban had done mistakes but now they are fighting war of Pakistan .*



was Afghanistan a Muslim Power & Taliban Fighting for Pakistan

Do i need to say anything after reading these stupid Jokes, hats off for you


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## PakistaniPhysco

Talibans can only be defeated by brutal massacre which i highly support.There should be no human rights applied on Taliban.When you capture, Kill them by pumping oil into their blood nerves and then burn their nerves..This show should be shown to couple dozen Talibans and slowly they will start loosing.Talibans are very very arrogant.It is because of the arrogance they got kicked in 2001.They thought no body could touch them but they got their ***** handed to them by ISAF.If push comes to shove US Army alone (Let Alone NATO) can take care of talibans.They would just have to deploy 200 to 300k troops and more air force.I hope they do.


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## Icarus

I believe the Taliban lost all reason to exist after the soviets left Afghanistan, they are denying the death of their ideology by finding new reasons to support there existence...........Fighting Pakistan is one such reason even though Pakistan trained them and armed them along with the US during the soviet occupation of Afghanistan...............but looking at the thrashing they received by the hands of our forces, i can conclusively say that: Indeed, billi sher ki khala hai !!!!!!!


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> was Afghanistan a Muslim Power & Taliban Fighting for Pakistan
> 
> Do i need to say anything after reading these stupid Jokes, hats off for you



Read history of Britishers invaders , US is using same techniques .

Infact two civilizations (muslim &capitalism) are at clash in Afghanistan.

Stupid jokes become reality after ISAF defeat in Afghanistan soon

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Remember one thing , zoinist and neo cons wanted to weaken all muslim powers from which they feel danger, they destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan and now Pakistan is their next target.
> 
> I agree with you talaban had done mistakes but now* they are fighting war of Pakistan* .



Yeah right..........more like the war to wipe Pakistan off the map.


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## waraich66

PakistaniPhysco said:


> Talibans can only be defeated in by brutal massacre which is i highly support.There should be no human rights applied on Taliban.When you capture, Kill them by pumping oil into their blood nerves and then burn their nerves..This show should be shown to couple dozen Talibans and slowly they will start loosing.Talibans are very very arrogant.It is because of the arrogance they got kicked in 2001.They thought no body could touch them but they got their ***** handed to them by ISAF.If push comes to shove US Army alone (Let Alone NATO) can take care of talibans.They would just have to deploy 200 to 300k troops and more air force.I hope they do.



defeat of talaban is your dream nothing else

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## DaRk WaVe

Fundamentalist said:


> Read history of Britishers invaders , US is using same techniques .
> 
> Infact two civilizations (*muslim &capitalism*) are at clash in Afghanistan.
> 
> Stupid jokes become reality after ISAF defeat in Afghanistan soon



Muslims who have been drinking Blood & who never did anything good for the people of their own country, They don't deserve to be called Muslims & Taliban are band of Blood & power Hungry Idiots who are using Religion as a weapon

Taliban fighting for Pakistan ain't a stupid joke then what is it?


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## FreekiN

Fight the Kaffir with the Kaffir's weapons.

Ironic eh?

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> I believe the Taliban lost all reason to exist after the soviets left Afghanistan, they are denying the death of their ideology by finding new reasons to support there existence...........Fighting Pakistan is one such reason even though Pakistan trained them and armed them along with the US during the soviet occupation of Afghanistan...............but looking at the thrashing they received by the hands of our forces, i can conclusively say that: Indeed, billi sher ki khala hai !!!!!!!



Afghan talaban have support of local tribes , dont mix them with TTP , AT are loyal to Pakistan and remain.

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Afghan talaban have support of local tribes , dont mix them with TTP , AT are loyal to Pakistan and remain.



My friend, I have yet to meet a single afghan who supports the taliban over ISAF.
As for the local tribes, except those of Orakzai, none wish to have anything to do with the Taliban as they brutally murdered about 550 of their tribal elders, the orakzai guys don't like em either but being under their occupation, there isn't much they can do...............


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## Solomon2

Kakgeta said:


> I believe the Taliban lost all reason to exist after the soviets left Afghanistan -


Kakgeta, you need a little more schooling here. Even the Taliban themselves admit they had nothing to do with kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan. They told the U.S. they only decided to get involved in politics afterward, in order "to form a strong, effective government, which could control its borders, prevent outside interference, and provide security to the people." link


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## Icarus

Solomon2 said:


> Kakgeta, you need a little more schooling here. Even the Taliban themselves admit they had nothing to do with kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan. They told the U.S. they only decided to get involved in politics afterward, in order "to form a strong, effective government, which could control its borders, prevent outside interference, and provide security to the people." link



I'm kinda lost, could you please expand on your statement ? I mean do you wish to rebut my statement or are you adding to it ?


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## waraich66

EmO GiRl said:


> Muslims who have been drinking Blood & who never did anything good for the people of their own country, They don't deserve to be called Muslims & Taliban are band of Blood & power Hungry Idiots who are using Religion as a weapon
> 
> Taliban fighting for Pakistan ain't a stupid joke then what is it?



Real target of US is Pakistan not Afghanistan , ISAF underetimated Talaban but now they are realizing depth of waters.

Defeat of US will be in favour of Pakistan and China .US invaded in Afghanistan to get safe passage of oil pipe lines from central asia , which was refused by Talaban.

Karzai was employee of same US oil company wanted to deal with Talaban for oil pipe line from central asias oil rich states.

Better read about big game of US in central asia to understand their war strategies.US is not fool to spend 70 Billion USD per year only to catch OBL

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> My friend, I have yet to meet a single afghan who supports the taliban over ISAF.
> As for the local tribes, except those of Orakzai, none wish to have anything to do with the Taliban as they brutally murdered about 550 of their tribal elders, the orakzai guys don't like em either but being under their occupation, there isn't much they can do...............



If Afghans are not supporting then , from where they are getting man power from nepal or bangladesh


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## Solomon2

It is a rebuttal. The Taliban movement was to rule Afghanistan, replacing the disorderly armed factions that remained after the Russians withdrew. The Taliban's active support came from Pakistan. Though the Taliban later co-opted some of the former resistance into its ranks, its direction was always from the top - from Mullah Omar - and was administered with the aid of Pakistan. link


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> If Afghans are not supporting then , from where they are getting man power from nepal or bangladesh



You are talking like they number in the millions, of course there are bound to be an odd few individuals who support them, you do, i bet a few others do too, but the majority of us want them exterminated.


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## Icarus

Solomon2 said:


> It is a rebuttal. The Taliban movement was to rule Afghanistan, replacing the disorderly armed factions that remained after the Russians withdrew. The Taliban's active support came from Pakistan. Though the Taliban later co-opted some of the former resistance into its ranks, its direction was always from the top - from Mullah Omar - and was administered with the aid of Pakistan. link



Oh, so it's our fault now ? These are your creations gone wild........you just try to keep the blame from yourself by putting it on Pak Army and ISI.......................your country created and armed them, paid them and trained them in guerrilla warfare...........you promised to "Build a better and stronger Afghanistan" after the soviets left..............but when you withdrew, leaving the people to realize that they had been lied to, there was bound to be some backlash...............
At the time when they took power, Pakistan was too busy trying to survive through drought and sanctions...............what was going down in Afghanistan was the least of our worries.


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## Awesome

S-2 said:


> I concur. The taliban are very adept information warriors but that wasn't what YOU said, sir.
> 
> Here's your comment if I may-
> 
> _"Problem is Nato has made this an anti-Pashtoon Afghan drive (as per perceptions)."_
> 
> NATO hasn't done so whatsoever. That the taliban would manufacture this message is expected...



The qualifier being "As per perceptions". The same thing was marketed against Pakistan Army by the Taliban in Pakistan. That we're out to kill Pashtoons. The downer for Taliban being that where it would've worked in Afghanistan, there is a strong working federation between the Pashtoons, Punjabis, Sindhis and Balochis. It just didn't fly.

It's not the same for Nato. The real trust deficit that Nato needs to contend with is not between Afghanis and Pakistanis, its between Afghanis and Afghanis. The government of Afghanistan should have a Pashtun majority, the Pashtuns shouldn't impose tyranny by utilizing that majority and a collaborative government should go on.

When I talk to Afghan Hazaras in Dubai and ask them this question that why can't you guys unite, they refuse to acknowledge that Pashtuns are even Afghans. 

Pakistan's trust deficit with Afghans is simply based upon this government. This current government thinks in this way, the Pakistanis support the Taliban against the Northern Alliance, so now we got to support the Indians so that we can get back at the Pakistanis. Our trust issues are natural consequence of their post-9/11 behavior and largely in self-defence. 

Any true democratic government would have popular Pashtun leaders which would automatically align them with Pakistan over India.


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## Solomon2

Kakgeta said:


> Oh, so it's our fault now ? These are your creations gone wild -


Certainly the U.S. helped support the Afghan resistance to Soviet occupation. But the U.S. had nothing to do with creating the Taliban.



> you just try to keep the blame from yourself by putting it on Pak Army and ISI -


I think at first the U.S. thought Taliban rule was beneficial, especially in the Kandahar region. 



> ...you promised to "Build a better and stronger Afghanistan" after the soviets left


I don't think the U.S. made that promise at that time. Certainly we were working to do so before the Russians invaded - the irrigation canals U.S. Marines are fighting through in Marjah today were built with the assistance of U.S. engineers decades ago. Our Agency for International Development (USAID) can do much to build the infrastructure of third-world countries. Same with other international development agencies. But they first need order to operate, and America never promised to provide that. 



> At the time when they took power, Pakistan was too busy trying to survive through drought and sanctions.....what was going down in Afghanistan was the least of our worries.


Read the links.


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## Gazzi

EmO GiRl said:


> I am a Muslim i believe in my religion, though i am a muslim who do many things that are against teaching of islam but no way on earth am i going to accept the Taliban Version of Islam
> Taliban are doing no good to people of Afghanistan & Pakistan & to Islam they are Barbarians who are out for Blood & power by using Islam they gaining the 'emotional support' of uneducated people who don't know the real Islam they believe in what they are TOLD



This could be seen from their viewpoint and believe that you want them to believe what your version/viewpoint of Islamn is..........calling someone barbarian with no evidence other then what the media has reported isn;t a very good line to take or practice......you cannot cherry pick a news source from a media oprganisation for one thing and deny it for another........the Taliban have tried to explain their actions many a times over and over......there PR and media outlet is not existent, abit like Pakistan's when it comes to india

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## Arik

PWFI said:


> Personnely, i think Afgan talibans="Army of MAHADI" !
> NO ONE CAN defeat THEM BY FORCE !



They can surely be defeated.The only thing needed by the allied force is the support of the locals.They need people who are well versed with the terrain.The rugged terrain is the only thing that protects the Taliban.


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## Gazzi

Solomon2 said:


> Certainly the U.S. helped support the Afghan resistance to Soviet occupation. But the U.S. had nothing to do with creating the Taliban.
> 
> I think at first the U.S. thought Taliban rule was beneficial, especially in the Kandahar region.
> 
> I don't think the U.S. made that promise at that time. Certainly we were working to do so before the Russians invaded - the irrigation canals U.S. Marines are fighting through in Marjah today were built with the assistance of U.S. engineers decades ago. Our Agency for International Development (USAID) can do much to build the infrastructure of third-world countries. Same with other international development agencies. But they first need order to operate, and America never promised to provide that.
> 
> Read the links.



On the contrary Solomon...........the US is the one who created this whole new ideology of Jihad using Abdullah Azzam who was OBL mentor.......todays world in this region of of your making.......the name is Taliban, heck, they could have called themselves anything but the US is the one who bought back this ideology to defeat the Soviets, for the vengeance of Vietnam.........forgetting that it has already cost 1.5 million Afghan lives during the Soviet invasion, the jury is still out for this WoT which God knows how many lives it is going to take......

Had the US not created this Johad strategy to rally support from Muslims, which had died out after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, yet the US found it a useful tool for itself to revive such feelings, which we are now seeing the results of.

The came and went leaving an absolute mess in Afghanistan, and leaving Pakistan to deal with this neighbour..........clearly Pakistan does not want unrest in its neighbouring country as this means problems for Pakistan. ie refugees, terror etc etc etc, which by the way we didn;t see the US take in as refugees in its country. 

So clearly they are going to try and stabilise the country by whatever is the easiest and practical route, here comes the Taliban, who by the way bought PEACE. Something not seen for decades and near enough eradicated Opium production which has now sprung back up again........Need I continue


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## PWFI

The Patriot said:


> taliban are terrorists and history has shown that terrorists never succeed. Even if there is no ISAF or NATO these terrorists would have been slaughtered one day by their own people.




Bro do you know what are you saying ?!!
If you are talking about TTP ,i agree but if it's about afgans talibans, you are doing a big mistake!
Just tell me why afgan talibans are terroristes?

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## PWFI

Arik said:


> They can surely be defeated.The only thing needed by the allied force is the support of the locals.They need people who are well versed with the terrain.The rugged terrain is the only thing that protects the Taliban.



 evry local afgani=freedome fighter=taliban how they can help you to defeat them!


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## PWFI

Gazzi said:


> *This is dangerous talk*, please refrain from it. Are you aware of the consequences of such a claim..........by God, every youth, everywhere will join them....it is compulsory upon every able bodied person to join them.........there has to be a religious body that makes this sort of claim..



Bro perhaps you don't know,but army of MAHADI will rise from KHORASAN=actuel afganistan! khorasan=afganistan,pakistani paktoun belt,north EST of iran.....but the epicentre is afganistan! 
source(hadith)

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## Desert Fox

Fundamentalist said:


> Thausand of years of old traditions could not be changed in five years of Talaban rule , minimum time to built a nation is 13 -23 years .



And besides, when Taliban ruled Afghanistan, America and its allies imposed sanctions on Afghanistan cutting off all resources to the landlocked country!

So basically it doesn't make sense that you cut off resources of a nation, and them afterward blame Taliban for the poverty, human rights violations and hunger of the Afghan people!

How do you expect someone to build schools and hospitals if you take away their tools, and skilled workers?

Maybe if the world had given Taliban a chance and in stead of imposing sanctions on them, helped them build their nation we could have seen a much better and stable Afghanistan today!

But i guess America was too much worried about its own national interest and didn't give a d@mn about the innocent Afghan lives!

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## FreekiN

PWFI said:


> Bro perhaps you don't know,but amry of MAHADI will rise from KHORASAN=zctuel afganistan! khorasan=afganistan,pakistani paktoun belt,north EST of iran.....but the epicentre is afganistan!
> source(hadith)



No... i'm pretty sure it was Syria.


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## Arik

SilentNinja said:


> And besides, when Taliban ruled Afghanistan, America and its allies imposed sanctions on Afghanistan cutting off all resources to the landlocked country!
> 
> So basically it doesn't make sense that you cut off resources of a nation, and them afterward blame Taliban for the poverty, human rights violations and hunger of the Afghan people!
> 
> How do you expect someone to build schools and hospitals if you take away their tools, and skilled workers?
> 
> Maybe if the world had given Taliban a chance and in stead of imposing sanctions on them, helped them build their nation we could have seen a much better and stable Afghanistan today!
> 
> But i guess America was too much worried about its own national interest and didn't give a d@mn about the innocent Afghan lives!



The Taliban made a lot of money buy selling opium in the western countries.They controlled all opium fields especially the larger ones in the helmand province.besides they were constantly funded by sheikhs in the Middle East particularly Saudi Arabia.They had lots of money enough to bulid schools hospitals etc..


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## Gazzi

FreekiN said:


> No... i'm pretty sure it was Syria.



nah, he is right with Khurasan, however, not any wily nilly can make the claim of Mahdi.........lets not discuss religion here and get to the topic

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## Gazzi

EmO GiRl said:


> Muslims who have been drinking Blood & who never did anything good for the people of their own country, They don't deserve to be called Muslims & Taliban are band of Blood & power Hungry Idiots who are using Religion as a weapon
> 
> Taliban fighting for Pakistan ain't a stupid joke then what is it?



EmoGirl - Look at it from the Afghan Talibans POV. The US has declared war on them and invaded their country. Palistan has provided them with Intell, airspace, base of operatons and many other things.......THEIR families has been killed. Don't you think they have a right to come after Pakistan now...........???????????

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## Desert Fox

Arik said:


> The Taliban made a lot of money buy selling opium in the western countries.They controlled all opium fields especially the larger ones in the helmand province.



 your kidding right? Do you know who brought opium production to a halt in the history of Afghanistan? Taliban did, and no one else! In fact, do you know how many people internationally lost their jobs due to the Taliban bringing an end to narcotics trade in Afghanistan? Millions of people all over the world in, including in the FBI and CIA lost their jobs because they weren't needed anymore and this took a big toll on the organizations of many countries that used illegal narcotics as a way to gain influence and money in poor nations. So basically this angered many people in Moscow, Washington, Beijing, and god knows where else! 76&#37; (that's a lot) of the worlds opium came from Afghanistan before Taliban rule!



Arik said:


> They had lots of money enough to bulid schools hospitals etc..




Even Hamas has a lot of money, but the problems is how are they supposed to spend it when they can't buy anything?

Like i said before, when you don't have skilled workers you can't build anything!

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## Ahmad

Asim Aquil said:


> which would automatically align them with Pakistan over India.



Trust me that would remain pakistan's dream. Afghanistan has got its ethnic problems no question about it and so does Pakistan(we see all sort of sectarian and ethnic conflict in paksitan), but no matter what ethnic group we talk in Afghanistan, they have got one common thing among themselves and that is negative opinion about pakistan. Go to afghani sites, they fight with each other over pitty things, but they all heavily criticize(using nice word here) pakistan no matter who they are.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> If Afghans are not supporting then , from where they are getting man power from nepal or bangladesh



If ttp isnt getting manpower support from the local people and tribes then where did they come from? from Iran or China?


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> How do you expect someone to build schools and hospitals if you take away their tools, and skilled workers?



they didnt have to build new schools, all they needed to do was letting the existing schools to open and operate. they closed every single of the girls' schools in their areas of control, they shut down the TV channel. people had to establish underground school girls, as if sending your daughter to school was a crime and they were doing it in hiden.


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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> they didnt have to build new schools, all they needed to do was letting the existing schools to open and operate. they closed every single of the girls' schools in their areas of control, they shut down the TV channel. people had to establish underground school girls, as if sending your daughter to school was a crime and they were doing it in hiden.



BS, who told you this? 

lol, who's going to teach the children in the school?

After the Afghan soviet war and the bloody civil war that followed, there was not even a teacher left in Afghanistan, they were all either killed by the Soviets or the criminal warlords, Afghanistan didn't even have a single standing hospital!

It wasn't the Taliban's fault that America (after using the Afghans for their own interest) abandoned Afghanistan for more than a decade! The Taliban was a reaction to the horrible things taking place in Afghanistan during the civil war!

If America cared they would have helped Afghans right after the d@mn Afghan Soviet war!

But instead they were busy celebrating in Washington drinking Champagne!


Do you know what a former Pakistani ISI agent said to the American congressman Charlie Wilson? 


Below is colonel Imam's conversation with Charlie Wilson:*

"The last time he saw Wilson was after the 1988 Geneva accords on the Soviet withdrawal. Imam told him: &#8220;You&#8217;re abandoning the Afghans. They need financial support for rehabilitation.&#8221; Wilson replied: &#8220;Dollars don&#8217;t grow on trees.&#8221; &#8220;Do Afghan youth grow on trees?&#8221; asked Imam. &#8220;Over 1.5m Afghans have died.&#8221;*

Even now, if you think America is working to help you then your mistaken!

And the only d@mn country that always helped you Afghans was and still is Pakistan! India never gave a cr@p about you, they helped the soviets occupy Afghanistan, and even today they want NATO and America to stay just so they can USE (Their USING you) Afghanistan against Pakistan!

And even if we did support Taliban, we had no choice, its not like we had another option open to us, America abandoned us along with the mess in your country, so if anyone you should be hating then its America, NOT Pakistan so you need to get your mind straight and keep your hate for Pakistan off this forum!


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## gambit

SilentNinja said:


> If America cared they would have helped Afghans right after the d@mn Afghan Soviet war!


Why not the muslims? Did they not care, after all, the fight against the Soviets was a collaborative effort between the US, Pakistan and the muslims in the ME. Each had their own interests. If we remained in Afghanistan, what make you think our (speculative) efforts would fare any better than the real efforts today? We are criticized today for not knowing the people and the culture. So who was left? How about other muslim countries in the ME? Who had and still do have the greatest cultural and religious ties to Afghanistan? Certainly not US. This argument is a canard and you know it.


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> BS, who told you this?
> 
> lol, who's going to teach the children in the school?
> 
> After the Afghan soviet war and the bloody civil war that followed, there was not even a teacher left in Afghanistan, they were all either killed by the Soviets or the criminal warlords, Afghanistan didn't even have a single standing hospital!
> 
> It wasn't the Taliban's fault that America (after using the Afghans for their own interest) abandoned Afghanistan for more than a decade! The Taliban was a reaction to the horrible things taking place in Afghanistan during the civil war!
> 
> If America cared they would have helped Afghans right after the d@mn Afghan Soviet war!
> 
> But instead they were busy celebrating in Washington drinking Champagne!
> 
> 
> Do you know what a former Pakistani ISI agent said to the American congressman Charlie Wilson?
> 
> 
> Below is colonel Imam's conversation with Charlie Wilson:*
> 
> "The last time he saw Wilson was after the 1988 Geneva accords on the Soviet withdrawal. Imam told him: &#8220;You&#8217;re abandoning the Afghans. They need financial support for rehabilitation.&#8221; Wilson replied: &#8220;Dollars don&#8217;t grow on trees.&#8221; &#8220;Do Afghan youth grow on trees?&#8221; asked Imam. &#8220;Over 1.5m Afghans have died.&#8221;*
> 
> Even now, if you think America is working to help you then your mistaken!
> 
> And the only d@mn country that always helped you Afghans was and still is Pakistan! India never gave a cr@p about you, they helped the soviets occupy Afghanistan, and even today they want NATO and America to stay just so they can USE (Their USING you) Afghanistan against Pakistan!
> 
> And even if we did support Taliban, we had no choice, its not like we had another option open to us, America abandoned us along with the mess in your country, so if anyone you should be hating then its America, NOT Pakistan so you need to get your mind straight and keep your hate for Pakistan off this forum!



Dear Silent,

What i said is not BS, it is the truth, because i used to live there at that time. And who told you that all the teachers were killed by the soviets or mujahideen? Alot of people died in Afghanistan and that included the teachers, doctors, drivers, students, shop keepers etc, but if we say all the teachers(or even if we say alot of teachers died) then it is absolutely wrong. there were teachers everywhere both female and male, we can say shortage of teachers but it will be very wrong to say there was no teacher. And that is another wrong thing you said, no standing hospital, do you want me to give you the names of the hospitals which were all operating before and after the taliban? secondly the NGOs funded by the UN and EU were always busy building schools, small hospitals, clinics, irregation structures etc, Afghanistan has been a very devastated country but not a jungle as you imagine. and who is saying that the americans are there for only and only one purpose to serve afghans' interests? did i every say that? our president ever said that? even Obama said that? i dont think anybody is saying this. America is clearly and loudly saying that it wants make secure its own country and to do that they need to have a stable afghanistan. nobody is doing anything for free to anybody. and please dont say that Pakistan helped us, pakistan helped itself, pakistan also had a big hand in our civil war, yes if you say that you support/supported the taliban for your proxy benefits then i can agree with you, and the thing with about supporting mujahideen, but never ever say that Pakistan helped afghanistan, because it is nothing but an incorrect statment. you guys helped yourselves, you protected your own skin from the might of the soviets and then used afghanistan against india for your proxy interests.

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## Desert Fox

gambit said:


> Why not the muslims? Did they not care, after all, the fight against the Soviets was a collaborative effort between the US, Pakistan and the muslims in the ME. Each had their own interests. If we remained in Afghanistan, what make you think our (speculative) efforts would fare any better than the real efforts today? We are criticized today for not knowing the people and the culture. So who was left? How about other muslim countries in the ME? Who had and still do have the greatest cultural and religious ties to Afghanistan? Certainly not US. This argument is a canard and you know it.



lol, don't give me that, we all know that the Muslims leaders are only there to fill their fat bellies! The only Muslim country that tried to solve the Afghan problem was Pakistan, but we are criticized for that!

But i'm talking about the USA, the same good ol USA who went to Iraq to liberate Iraqis from the ruthless Saddam Hussien (the same guy whom they once supported)!

How come these liberating American's didn't help Afghans when ruthless warlords were tearing the country apart?

How come these Americans who dearly love and admire their Afghan brethren didn't come to bring "democracy" and "freedom" during the civil war in Afghanistan? Where was the call for Human rights violations back then? How come America failed to see the rapes of many Afghan women at the hands of the ruthless warlords (the same warlords whom America is today supporting)!

I mean you guys could have prevented the horrible, ruthless, barbaric Taliban from coming into power, couldn't you? You could have stopped Al-Qaeda from gaining foothold in Afghanistan right?

Please, who do you think your fooling? your only USING Afghanistan for your own interest!


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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> Dear Silent,
> 
> What i said is not BS, it is the truth, because i used to live there at that time. And who told you that all the teachers were killed by the soviets or mujahideen? Alot of people died in Afghanistan and that included the teachers, doctors, drivers, students, shop keepers etc, but if we say all the teachers(or even if we say alot of teachers died) then it is absolutely wrong. there were teachers everywhere both female and male, we can say shortage of teachers but it will be very wrong to say there was no teacher. And that is another wrong thing you said, no standing hospital, do you want me to give you the names of the hospitals which were all operating before and after the taliban? secondly the NGOs funded by the UN and EU were always busy building schools, small hospitals, clinics, irregation structures etc, Afghanistan has been a very devastated country but *not a jungle as you imagine*.




Who said Afghanistan was a jungle, stop putting words in my mouth! And pleas, kindly provide me the names of hospitals!



Unity said:


> and who is saying that the americans are there for only and only one purpose to serve afghans' interests? did i every say that?



clearly your hatred for Pakistanis show's that you consider everyone else an angel and Pakistan the devil!



Unity said:


> our president ever said that? even Obama said that? i dont think anybody is saying this. *America is clearly and loudly saying that it wants make secure its own country and to do that they need to have a stable afghanistan*.



Why a stable Afghanistan now, why not before?




Unity said:


> *and please dont say that Pakistan helped us, pakistan helped itself*



So you mean to tell me all those 3-7 million Afghan refuges were undercover Pakistanis who crossed the border fleeing Soviet Army?



Unity said:


> *, pakistan also had a big hand in our civil war,*



So i'm guessing it was Pakistan who was backing the Northern Alliance and the Taliban! Your hatred for Pakistan is what is blinding you! 

You seem to forget that it was because of indian proxies (BLA) and Northern alliance we had to support Taliban, so why are you blaiming us for? like i said, if America gave a d@mn about you the Taliban wouldn't have existed in the first place, so keep your hatred for America, not Pakistan!



Unity said:


> yes if you say that you support/supported the taliban for your proxy benefits then i can agree with you,



I'm guessing your uneducated and don't know anything about your country! How can you forget about india's proxy wars against Pakistan, was Pakistan the only country involved in Afghanistan after Soviet withdrawal?



Unity said:


> and the thing with about supporting mujahideen, but never ever say that Pakistan helped afghanistan, because it is nothing but an incorrect statment.



Yeah, i guess your right, it was the indians who allowed more than 3 million refuges into their country, and still today they are caring for Afghans with love



Unity said:


> you guys helped yourselves, *you protected your own skin from the might of the soviets and then used afghanistan against india for your proxy interests.*



Tell me, who wants peace in Afghanistan today? who is helping reconciliation between Taliban, Karzai, and America? india, or Pakistan?

India wants America and NATO to stay so that they can continue to USE (their USING you) against Pakistan! indian can care less about how many children die in this war, but as long as they can continue to wage proxy war against Pakistan its fine with them!

I can understand your hypocrisy and hatred, no wonder your country is in shambles! I bet you love it when india and America play with Afghanistan, and then throws you away after using you, no problem, if that's how you like then i'm good!

Complete and total BS, that's all i can say, bravo, congratulations, you have posted the most BS i have ever read in one post!

Tell me one by one, step by step, why exactly your mind spews sooooooooooooooooooo much BS against Pakistan?

Tell me, why, of all countries who ****** up Afghanistan, you choose Pakistan?

Tell me, why?

What did Pakistan do to to be so honored to be your enemy?

Tell me why don't you? instead of posting lame one line excuses explain to me why you hate Pakistan? i would be glad to know?

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## adrenalin

Nothing is impossible. 
Just to freshen your memory, America conquered Moon decades back. 
But yeah! the right sense should prevail!


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## Gazzi

Unity said:


> Dear Silent,
> 
> What i said is not BS, it is the truth, because i used to live there at that time. And who told you that all the teachers were killed by the soviets or mujahideen? Alot of people died in Afghanistan and that included the teachers, doctors, drivers, students, shop keepers etc, but if we say all the teachers(or even if we say alot of teachers died) then it is absolutely wrong. there were teachers everywhere both female and male, we can say shortage of teachers but it will be very wrong to say there was no teacher. And that is another wrong thing you said, no standing hospital, do you want me to give you the names of the hospitals which were all operating before and after the taliban? secondly the NGOs funded by the UN and EU were always busy building schools, small hospitals, clinics, irregation structures etc, Afghanistan has been a very devastated country but not a jungle as you imagine. and who is saying that the americans are there for only and only one purpose to serve afghans' interests? did i every say that? our president ever said that? even Obama said that? i dont think anybody is saying this. America is clearly and loudly saying that it wants make secure its own country and to do that they need to have a stable afghanistan. nobody is doing anything for free to anybody. and please dont say that Pakistan helped us, pakistan helped itself, pakistan also had a big hand in our civil war, yes if you say that you support/supported the taliban for your proxy benefits then i can agree with you, and the thing with about supporting mujahideen, but never ever say that Pakistan helped afghanistan, because it is nothing but an incorrect statment. you guys helped yourselves, you protected your own skin from the might of the soviets and then used afghanistan against india for your proxy interests.



"Our president", "our civil war", 

WTF, your the one who is displaying UN flags in your profile and you are actually using the word OUR. If you were that sincere and caring, you would go back now when the US is there and help in the countries reconstruction......but noooooo, sitting in the comfort of your armchair typing away your poison with ill information really helps now doesn't it.

About your lie about the drugs issue with Taliban

-----------> Link Who benefits from the Afghan Opium Trade? Link <----------

Taliban actually eradicated Opium production where they could, it has now increased. I am well aware of the drugs issue in the News before 9/11 and how grateful in the West the media was for the Taliban help in wiping out the drugs trade....however, just before war all the false proaganda, abit like yourself started pouring out about how the Taliban is running the drugs market, what absolute F ing BS.

I can qoute many other links for you, if you so wish

On one hand you call them fundmentalists and on the other drug barons, first understand the word fundamentalist, fanatics, extremist then come and spread your lies here.......the Taliban, as fundamentalist hold on dealry to the basic fundamentals of Islam and follow Islam strictly, which means drugs is out of the question, hence why they eradicated drugs during their rule.....only corrupt ill minded persons, like yourself, would not like this sort of move as the Taliban bought security and PEACE........recall that word PEACE to the region where once outlaws, warlords and gangsters roamed the streets.

You Sir, talk about living in Afghanistan and that there were teachers available, tell me, if this is true, then why the F ing hell would you live there during the Taliban rule and leave during the US rule....makes no sense, stop trying to get the upper hand in a debate by using this crap about having first hand knowledge and by publicising more of your BS here.

Question is, were the Taliban under sanctions, if so, why........they had just taken over most of Afghanistan, bought PEACE and security........something no one else was able to do....but they get hit with sanctions and suddenly all this proaganda crap starts to come out which is even refuted by the Taliban at the time and others who have actually met the Taliban......Yes they punish people, but guess what.....so do the champions of democracy, Abu Ghraib, Bagran, Guantanamo, and many other Police/Military brutality videos I could show you on Youtube alone.....the US even executes people by electric chair, lethal injection.....thats has a nice ring to it don't you think, lethal injection, its like calling a vacuum bomb, a weapon of mass destruction a daisy cutter........Give the Taliban electricity and they too will have electric chair executions, but guess, what....they don't, hence they use whatever means are avilable to them to maintain law and order, just like they do in the west.

But heyho, when the warlords were running amock and looting, robbing, murdering, raping etc etc etc, no sanctions, instead they were taking sides.....only the Taliban, didn't want to take any side or assist the outside world in helping to destroy its country.

Please get your story correct and not pussyfoot around here with your crap.

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## qaisar52

PWFI said:


> Personnely, i think Afgan talibans="Army of MAHADI" !
> NO ONE CAN defeat THEM BY FORCE !



Sorry My Dear Taliban can never be Mahdi army. Taliban are those who killed Syed families (Prophet Mohammed (Sallah Allah ho aleh hey Waslam). 

Please do search than post.

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## Solomon2

Gazzi said:


> On the contrary Solomon the US is the one who created...the US is the one who bought back -


In addition to the series of declassified U.S. government cables I've linked to, Kakgeta, Ahmed Rashid's 2000 book, _Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia_ is a good reference.



> The [U.S.] came and went leaving an absolute mess in Afghanistan, and leaving Pakistan to deal with this neighbour -


The Geneva Accords that ended Soviet involvement also forbade the U.S. from meddling in Afghanistan's internal affairs. Still, the fact that post-conflict support was practically non-existent was rather uncharacteristic for the U.S. I'm not sure what form that aid could have taken, or to whom, exactly.



> So clearly they are going to try and stabilise the country by whatever is the easiest and practical route, here comes the Taliban -


This is the first time I've heard the argument that Pakistan's support of the Taliban was "the easiest and practical route" to a post-war Afghanistan that satisfied Pakistan. Gazzi, do you think the U.S. secretly supported Pakistan to bring this about? I don't doubt that after the Russians pulled out the U.S. often deferred to Pakistani judgment and initiative regarding Afghan affairs; after all, Pakistan not only did the most to assure victory, but still harbored millions of Afghan refugees.


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## Thomas

PakiTheBrave1 said:


> well said ... U.S (aka the superpower ) sukksss, almost 9 years at war with Afghan Taliban, and loosing. theyr gonna get their @$$e$ kicked out of Afghan.. youll see..
> 
> Lets say U.S gets defeated, and Taliban govern Afghanistan again.... who becomes superpower ???



Do you hope for Taliban rule of Pakistan as well?


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## gambit

SilentNinja said:


> lol, don't give me that, we all know that the Muslims leaders are only there to fill their fat bellies!


Why are you avoiding the question? Answer me -- Who is the better choice to help Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal? US or the muslims? If Osama bin Laden can do it in his own way with his own money, why not individual muslims? Why not the muslim governments in Asia?



SilentNinja said:


> But i'm talking about the USA, the same good ol USA who went to Iraq to liberate Iraqis from the ruthless Saddam Hussien (the same guy whom they once supported)!


May be you either forget or did not know but the muslims supported Saddam Hussein as well.

Gulf Cooperation Council [GCC]


> ...immediate objective was to protect themselves from the threat posed by the Iran-Iraq War and Iranian-inspired activist Islamism (also seen as fundamentalism).


If anything, Saddam Hussein needed the approval and support of the muslims more than he did from US. It was a muslims against muslims war. It was about muslim, not American or European, oil interests.

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## The Patriot

Solomon2 said:


> The Geneva Accords that ended Soviet involvement also forbade the U.S. from meddling in Afghanistan's internal affairs. Still, the fact that post-conflict support was practically non-existent was rather uncharacteristic for the U.S. I'm not sure what form that aid could have taken, or to whom, exactly.



Besides the Geneva accord, two things happened which changed or shifted American focus: one was to oversee the smooth transition from the cold war to the post cold war world. And to manage the reunification of Germany. The second thing was the Gulf situation. in early 90s the US was dealing with something big than Afghanistan. In fact, it was a good opportunity for Pakistan to serve its interests, if it wanted, in Afghanistan while the US was engaged somewhere else. But our policy makers failed to capitalize on the gains and favorable situation. It was a great opportunity which they lost.

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## S-2

*"...two things happened which changed or shifted American focus: one was to oversee the smooth transition from the cold war to the post cold war world. And to manage the reunification of Germany. The second thing was the Gulf situation."*

Good call and completely accurate. Moreover, it was natural that our focus would shift as we'd held no historical interests to Afghanistan.

WRT to a taliban victory in Afghanistan, we'll know a lot more based upon how Marjah evolves, specifically as well as the overall situation in Afghanistan by the end of this year. The taliban are being challenged in areas that heretofore they'd assumed were in-country sanctuary. Whether our efforts to reassert Afghan government control can take effective hold or not will go far to deciding the issue.

Thanks.

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## Ahmad

*
Who said Afghanistan was a jungle, stop putting words in my mouth! And pleas, kindly provide me the names of hospitals!*

You were just short of saying that. But anyways, all over Afghanisan there are many many schools and hospitals that i dont remember the names and/or dont know the names, but i can give you the list of some big hospitals and schools in Kabul as an example: *Hospitals--> *Jamhoryat, Nesaye wa Woladi, Chaharsad Bestar, Malalay Maternitiy Hospital, Ali Abad, Maiwand etc. *Schools--->*Habibia, Sayed Noor M. Shah, Amani, Naderi, Esteqlal, Mariam, Rabia Balkhi, Ghazi etc. all of these stand well in good shape upto now.

*clearly your hatred for Pakistanis show's that you consider everyone else an angle and Pakistan the devil!*

Nope, i dont consider everyone as angel and i dont consider pakisan as devil, i was just trying to tell you how you were wrong in your assessments and ideas.


*Why a stable Afghanistan now, why not before?*

Ask the americans, i dont know. I never said and will never say that the americans are there to help us, they help themselves, but if we are clever enough we can take benefit from that situation.


*So you mean to tell me all those 3-7 million Afghan refuges were undercover Pakistanis who crossed the border fleeing Soviet Army?*

No, i dont say that, but if you didnt allow that 2 millions afghans in your soil, you couldnt find any recruits to train to go to afghanistan and fight the russians, you were only interested to save pakistan, you are wrong to say you helped afghanistan, cuz you didnt.

*So i'm guessing it was Pakistan who was backing the Northern Alliance and the Taliban! Your hatred for Pakistan is what is blinding you! *

Do you know who the NA was? they were the mujahideen who were fighting against the russians(with the exception of one man) and they were under the protection and help of pakistan. later on you stopped supporting them and prefered Gulbudin, by helping him you fueled the civil war, thats how the NA asked for help from India, otherwise the so called NA was your servents before that.


*I'm guessing your uneducated and don't know anything about your country! How can you forget about india's proxy wars against Pakistan, was Pakistan the only country involved in Afghanistan after Soviet withdrawal?*

I might or might not be uneducated, but the fact is i know alot about my country. I can never forget the proxy wars, i have literally mentioned in alot of my posts, this is exactly what i am intended to say. it is all about proxy wars, india-pakistan, alqaeda-america, and others, it is a lie to say that you care about afghanistan, because you dont, you are only interested in your proxies. Freedom, muslims, freedom fighters, good taliban and bad taliban etc they are all the deception.

*Yeah, i guess your right, it was the indians who allowed more than 3 million refuges into their country, and still today they are caring for Afghans with love*

You did it for your own purpose.


*Tell me, who wants peace in Afghanistan today? who is helping reconciliation between Taliban, Karzai, and America? india, or Pakistan?*

Only it is because of the pressure from your american masters.


*India wants America and NATO to stay so that they can continue to USE (their USING you) against Pakistan! indian can care less about how many children die in this war, but as long as they can continue to wage proxy war against Pakistan its fine with them!*

And pakistan want the taliban to fight! does that bring any peace?


*I can understand your hypocrisy and hatred, no wonder your country is in shambles! I bet you love it when india and America play with Afghanistan, and then throws you away after using you, no problem, if that's how you like then i'm good!*

No, no hypocracy, just telling the truth.


*Complete and total BS, that's all i can say, bravo, congratulations, you have posted the most BS i have ever read in one post!

Tell me one by one, step by step, why exactly your mind spews sooooooooooooooooooo much BS against Pakistan?*

tell me why your mouth is so full of BS today?


*Tell me, why, of all countries who ****** up Afghanistan, you choose Pakistan?

Tell me, why?*

Because pakistan did most of the things and still not leaving us alone.


*Tell me why don't you? instead of posting lame one line excuses explain to me why you hate Pakistan? i would be glad to know?*

NO, i dont hate pakisan as a matter of fact i respect nation of pakistan. criticizing your wrong foreign policy is something else.

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## Ahmad

*"Our president", "our civil war", *

I swear to allah that i was absolutely critical of my president until i saw how much you guys wanted afghanistan down and burning in fire but now i have changed my mind and will give him all the support.


*WTF, your the one who is displaying UN flags in your profile and you are actually using the word OUR. If you were that sincere and caring, you would go back now when the US is there and help in the countries reconstruction......but noooooo, sitting in the comfort of your armchair typing away your poison with ill information really helps now doesn't it.*

And WTF are you doing in the UK? doesnt your country need you in this critical situation? Pakistan is burning and you are sitting in the armchair comfort of the UK. I am not the only afghan living abroad, and there are millions others. We earn money and send it our hungry families, it is by itself a help to my country, by the way i didnt need to explain myself to you.

*About your lie about the drugs issue with Taliban

-----------> Link Who benefits from the Afghan Opium Trade? Link <----------

Taliban actually eradicated Opium production where they could, it has now increased. I am well aware of the drugs issue in the News before 9/11 and how grateful in the West the media was for the Taliban help in wiping out the drugs trade....however, just before war all the false proaganda, abit like yourself started pouring out about how the Taliban is running the drugs market, what absolute F ing BS.

I can qoute many other links for you, if you so wish*

They eradicated all the fields at once and left the farmers with nothing, Government of Afghanistan can do the same thing with poisoning the fields from air, but they dont because that will take all the livelihood from the farmers. they are doing it gradually by introducing the programmes. it has been very very successful in the north with the exception of one province and largely successful in west and east, my provice which was full of poppy , but now you dont see it anymore.

*On one hand you call them fundmentalists and on the other drug barons, first understand the word fundamentalist, fanatics, extremist then come and spread your lies here.......the Taliban, as fundamentalist hold on dealry to the basic fundamentals of Islam and follow Islam strictly, which means drugs is out of the question, hence why they eradicated drugs during their rule.....only corrupt ill minded persons, like yourself, would not like this sort of move as the Taliban bought security and PEACE........recall that word PEACE to the region where once outlaws, warlords and gangsters roamed the streets.*

I didnt call the taliban as fundemantalists etc. where did i say that? I called them criminals and murderes. Taliban didnt bring any peace, there was full scale war right from the begining until the time they were removed from kabul. they did kill thousands and thousands of civilians on purpose by entering every house and killing the people, hope you know this.

*You Sir, talk about living in Afghanistan and that there were teachers available, tell me, if this is true, then why the F ing hell would you live there during the Taliban rule and leave during the US rule....makes no sense, stop trying to get the upper hand in a debate by using this crap about having first hand knowledge and by publicising more of your BS here.*

I was in Afghanistan until Nov 2000, then i left Afghanistan as the situation was bad.

*Question is, were the Taliban under sanctions, if so, why........they had just taken over most of Afghanistan, bought PEACE and security........something no one else was able to do....but they get hit with sanctions and suddenly all this proaganda crap starts to come out which is even refuted by the Taliban at the time and others who have actually met the Taliban......Yes they punish people, but guess what.....so do the champions of democracy, Abu Ghraib, Bagran, Guantanamo, and many other Police/Military brutality videos I could show you on Youtube alone.....the US even executes people by electric chair, lethal injection.....thats has a nice ring to it don't you think, lethal injection, its like calling a vacuum bomb, a weapon of mass destruction a daisy cutter........Give the Taliban electricity and they too will have electric chair executions, but guess, what....they don't, hence they use whatever means are avilable to them to maintain law and order, just like they do in the west.*

I dont care what was the taliban's system and what laws did they apply. I am critical of them because they murdered civilians on purpose, they killed people based on shia-sunni prejudice, and other stupid reasons. do you know how many people they masacared(all of them civilians)? do you know how many times and how many cities and villages they completely demolished and burnt down? they cut all the fruit trees of some villages. Even after all these atrocites, if they come and join the political process, lay down their weapons, nobody will criticize them.

*But heyho, when the warlords were running amock and looting, robbing, murdering, raping etc etc etc, no sanctions, instead they were taking sides.....only the Taliban, didn't want to take any side or assist the outside world in helping to destroy its country.

Please get your story correct and not pussyfoot around here with your crap.*

And who cares about these warlords? they are just as bad, and dont forget that they were once supported by pakistan big time. but now they have layed their weapon down.

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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> The Taliban will &#8216;never be defeated&#8217;
> &#8216;Colonel Imam&#8217;, the Pakistani agent who trained Mullah Omar and the warlords to fight the Soviets, says the US must negotiate with its enemies
> Taleban insurgents in Afghanistan
> 
> *Poor Col. Imam suffers from the memories of the past. Its obvious that (if he is delusional) he must have held court to fawning GOP and US officials keen to know about the way forward in Afghanistan to end USSR backed regime. Now only sound bytes he can offer is to the odd journalist. I can understand his frustrations.*
> 
> In particular, he chides, they should have remembered the battle of Maiwand in 1880, in which 2,500 British troops took on 25,000 Afghans and suffered a devastating defeat.
> 
> *Well poor Col. Imam living in the past when there was no Taliban and cleverly trying to confuse people by stating that todays Taliban with 1880 united Afghan population. Todays Taliban are a mixture of deluded kids and mercenary scum. Day by day their safe sancturies are being whittled down. They have been reduced to the level of a tribal mafia.*
> 
> His comments come as the number of British soldiers killed by enemy action in Afghanistan has risen to 137, one more than the number who have died in Iraq.
> 
> *So ? I salute these 137 men as they have died for a higher purpose just as I salute the rest of the ISAF men killed or wounded and just I salute the 2500 odd PA men killed. TALIBAN IS DEFEATED and heart of heart Col. Imam cannot accept it as he trained them. *
> 
> According to Imam, Helmand is particularly difficult because of the character of the people. &#8220;They couldn&#8217;t care less about loss of property or loss of life,&#8221; he said.
> 
> *Well sorry Col. we have moved into Helmand alongwith the ANA smoothly, inspite letting the Taliban know, when we would in advance. Your boys ran like rats.*
> 
> It is unlikely that anybody alive today knows the Afghans as well as Imam. All the key figures were trained in his camps, from the late Ahmad Shah Massoud, the Lion of Panj-shir, to warlords such as Gul-buddin Hekmatyar, his &#8220;naughtiest&#8221; student. *&#8220;It was a matter of pride for me that my students later became big commanders,&#8221; he said.*
> 
> *THEY ALSO BECAME BARBARIC DEPOTS, FEUDAL LORDS, ALLLOWED THEIR MINIONS TO CARESS WOMENS BOTTOM IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. I CAN NOW UNDERSTAND HIS FRUSTRATION WHEN HE SEES THEM RUNNING LIKE HEADLESS CHICKENS FROM THE ISAF.*
> &#8220;The Afghan is a very cunning soldier,&#8221; he added. &#8220;He picks things up very quickly and never forgets. As a Pakistani unit commander I&#8217;d be training my men for six months and maybe they would remember 70&#37;. But in Afghanistan teenagers came, had only three days&#8217; weapon training and they remembered 100%. In just 15 days they mastered the Stinger [the shoulder-mounted surface-to-air missile].&#8221;
> 
> *Conviniently forgetting that the ANA fighting the Taliban are Afghanis to.*
> 
> Omar passed through his camps in 1985. &#8220;He was a simple man, a small commander leading a maximum of 40 people and didn&#8217;t have much weaponry,&#8221; Imam recalled.
> 
> *Sounds like delusional musings of a guy desperate for attention.*
> 
> One of Imam&#8217;s biggest backers was Congressman Charlie Wilson, the Texan who was instrumental in securing funding for Operation Cyclone, the CIA programme to supply arms with which the mujaheddin would fight the Soviet troops.
> &#8220;He used to dance with happiness at seeing our training camps,&#8221; said Imam.
> 
> *Never seen CS ever dance. Though he must have been happy to get rid of the USSR just like Pakistan.*
> 
> Within 10 years the Russians had been forced out. &#8220;Total expenditure just $5 billion and not a single American life,&#8221; said Imam. &#8220;Now the Americans are spending hundreds of billions and losing hundreds of lives.&#8221;
> 
> 
> *Like many Pakistanis he refuses to believe the September 11 attacks were carried out by Osama Bin Laden. &#8220;An operation like that needs ground support,&#8221; he said. &#8220;I have no doubt it was carried out by the Americans to give a bad name to the Taliban government as an excuse to topple it.&#8221;*
> 
> *YES THE WORLD IS FULL OF FOOLS EXCEPT COL. IMAM. A DISGRACE TO PA WHICH IS FIGHTING TTP.*
> 
> When General Pervez Musharraf, then president of Pakistan, agreed to American pressure to cut ties to the Taliban, the colonel was outraged.
> 
> *OFCOURSE HE WOULD HAVE PREFERRED A WAR BETWEEN US AND GOP ? *
> 
> Recalled to Islamabad, he told Musharraf: &#8220;You cannot defeat these people, they are well trained, they have a lot of ammunition and the more you kill, the more supporters will come.&#8221; Today he adds: &#8220;It was the blunder of his life and because of it we are all doomed.&#8221;
> 
> *WELL KIYANI SAYS ITS GOP WAR SO IMAM CAN GO AND HOP.*
> 
> 
> &#8220;I&#8217;m quite happy with the current situation because the Americans are trapped there. *The Taliban will not win *but in the end the enemy will tire, like the Russians.&#8221;
> 
> *NEED I SAY MORE.* *Makes a mockery of the title of the thread.*
> 
> He has offered to find the Americans a way out: &#8220;We can give them a face-saving solution but they must change their strategy.&#8221;
> 
> *I can tell him where to shove his face saving solution. We will not tire. We will remain in a support role and help the ANA whenever required.*
> 
> 
> He insisted the Taliban leader was not in Pakistan: &#8220;He&#8217;s in the hills of Uruzgan, his home province. If there&#8217;s a requirement he will listen to me, but why should I get him involved in a risky situation?&#8221;
> 
> *WHAT A CARTOON. Guess he put his foot in his mouth. Mullah "Brother" caught a few days back was arrested in Karachi. Guess this moron considers Karachi in AF. This statement exposes his desperation.*
> 
> Imam said he had watched with horror as fighting spread into Pakistan and had been shocked to see his fellow officers having to fight against their own countrymen in the Swat district.&#8220;These are not Taliban, they are tribals,&#8221; he said.
> 
> *So he agrees with the ISI Chief that TTP is not RAW in disguise but tribal patriots. Tell that to the family of the PA Brigadier they killed eventhough he was on a rescue mission.*
> 
> 
> The call for prayer brings our interview to an end. Before he goes he has one last warning: &#8220;I tell you when my nation rises up it is not Afghanistan, not Iraq. There will be tremendous killing.&#8221;



*Drivel of a man who should be arrested and put in a mental home. Lastly I salute the ANA and the ordinary AF people for their bravery.

Regards*

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## Icarus

Their claim of establishing a muslim empire is FAKE !!!!!, they ruled afghanistan for 6 years yet all they did was stone alot of people(most of whom were outspoken critics of the Taliban regime) to death.
They hardly know anything about Islam, they do not follow the rules of engagement highlighted by the Prophet(P.B.U.H).
Once during the crusades, a christian army had encamped in a desert to fight the muslims the next day, they were having severe problems due to shortage of water and were extremely thirsty, muslim soldiers took advantage of this and would signal christian soldiers over by waving their water bottles towards them but when they came near, they would waste the water by throwing it into the sand, Sallah ud Din Ayubi was so upset at this that he ordered every muslim soldiers to share his water with one christian soldier, even though they were set to fight the next day..................Can we expect the same treatment from the Taliban ?
Their motivation isn't even religion, it's having an orgy in heaven with 72 virgins !!!!!! This kind of disgusts me since there is alot in this world and the hereafter that is worth living or dying for other than virgins...............................


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## waraich66

Col Tarrar is right 

If ISAF need 15000+ army to capture one distt (Helmand) 

How much they need to capture 398 Distts of Afghanistan? 

6 Million

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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Col Tarrar is right
> 
> If ISAF need 15000+ army to capture one distt (Helmand)
> 
> How much they need to capture 398 Distts of Afghanistan?
> 
> 6 Million



Its obvious Col. Tarar and you need straws of hope to cling on to as you see the Talibani Scum tuck their tails and run like rabbits.

Capturing and running a district are two different operations incase you have no clue. Soon ANA and local govt. will run it. Sorry to pucture your bubble.

Regards


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## Condor

Kakgeta said:


> Their claim of establishing a muslim empire is FAKE !!!!!, they ruled afghanistan for 6 years yet all they did was stone alot of people(most of whom were outspoken critics of the Taliban regime) to death.
> They hardly know anything about Islam, they do not follow the rules of engagement highlighted by the Prophet(P.B.U.H).
> Once during the crusades, a christian army had encamped in a desert to fight the muslims the next day, they were having severe problems due to shortage of water and were extremely thirsty, muslim soldiers took advantage of this and would signal christian soldiers over by waving their water bottles towards them but when they came near, they would waste the water by throwing it into the sand, Sallah ud Din Ayubi was so upset at this that he ordered every muslim soldiers to share his water with one christian soldier, even though they were set to fight the next day..................Can we expect the same treatment from the Taliban ?
> Their motivation isn't even religion, it's having an orgy in heaven with 72 virgins !!!!!! This kind of disgusts me since there is alot in this world and the hereafter that is worth living or dying for other than virgins...............................


Hey Kakgeta,
In the same crusades that you mention above, this same Salahuddin Ayubbi presented the gift of a fine horse when he saw that his enemy, Richard's horse was killed.
Can you see any of that in these modern day crusaders to give some of their own weapon systems to these ragtag group ofMuslim fighters, who are terribly disadvantaged in weaponry and equipment - but still fight on.
What kind of a war is it anyway when the invader has an near infinite superiority in both the air and on the ground.
This is no war this is a massacre of a people in which your Govt participates and you cheer them on.
This is an occupation and forced enforcing of a solution that those people simply won't accept. And herein lies their strength and their triumph. And have shown with a certitude beyond any doubt that the WILL indeed is supreme.
An enormity of our times is happening in your neighbourhood and now within your own country and not only you choose not to oppose it - you side with the bully and the oppressor. what kind of moral fibre constitutes people like you? 
Makes me wonder.


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## Icarus

Condor said:


> Hey Kakgeta,
> In the same crusades that you mention above, this same Salahuddin Ayubbi presented the gift of a fine horse when he saw that his enemy, Richard's horse was killed.
> Can you see any of that in these modern day crusaders to give some of their own weapon systems to these ragtag group ofMuslim fighters, who are terribly disadvantaged in weaponry and equipment - but still fight on.
> What kind of a war is it anyway when the invader has an near infinite superiority in both the air and on the ground.
> This is no war this is a massacre of a people in which your Govt participates and you cheer them on.
> This is an occupation and forced enforcing of a solution that those people simply won't accept. And herein lies their strength and their triumph. And have shown with a certitude beyond any doubt that the WILL indeed is supreme.
> An enormity of our times is happening in your neighbourhood and now within your own country and not only you choose not to oppose it - you side with the bully and the oppressor. what kind of moral fibre constitutes people like you?
> Makes me wonder.



You ask what kind of moral fiber constitutes people like me ? Well for starters, one with some real morals..........Sure we and ISAF have airplanes and tanks that the taliban lack, but don't they have the dreaded suicide bomber ? The same that they use to kill innocent men, women and children indiscriminately, in mosques, markets and our own streets..............you support those people who attack our mosques shouting "Inn ki naslon ko Khatam kar do(Irradicate their children)" before killing any worshipper who falls in their sight, in particular young boys ?
With this i reciprocate your question, What kind of moral fiber constitutes people like you ?

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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> Its obvious Col. Tarar and you need straws of hope to cling on to as you see the Talibani Scum tuck their tails and run like rabbits.
> 
> Capturing and running a district are two different operations incase you have no clue. Soon ANA and local govt. will run it. Sorry to pucture your bubble.
> 
> Regards



India deployed 700000 troops to fight against freedom fighters in Kashmir but still operation is continued after 20 years.

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## blueoval79

Fundamentalist said:


> India deployed 700000 troops to fight against freedom fighters in Kashmir but still operation is continued after 20 years.


Sick and tired of this figure : 700000.......some old *** mentions it in his book.....some Human rights organization pick it up and uses in a report.....and the whole world uses it ...

Can anyone put a more authentic source.....


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> India deployed 700000 troops to fight against freedom fighters in Kashmir but still operation is continued after 20 years.



Good attempt at throwing a googly and trying to link the two for trying to gain some support for your loosing arguments. However lets dissect that too but in another thread.


Now lets come to your " American Idols" the burka clad fleeingTaliban.

We are only kicking them out, read the article carefully. The administration and future security will be ANA. They have proved themselves time and again.

Taliban will be the masters of the *** holes they hid in but that too not for very long.


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## PWFI

qaisar52 said:


> Sorry My Dear Taliban can never be Mahdi army. Taliban are those who killed Syed families (Prophet Mohammed (Sallah Allah ho aleh hey Waslam).
> 
> Please do search than post.



so do you know where is khorasan? it's very logic!

These taliban have killed Syed families?
and 2nd who kill syed families ,is not a muslim!right?
Only jew have killed prophets!

Thank for your very informative info, watch this:

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## Icarus

PWFI said:


> so do you where is khorasan? it's very logic!
> 
> These taliban have killed Syed families?
> and 2nd who kill syed families ,is not a muslim!right?
> Only jew have killed prophets!
> 
> Thank for your very informative info, watch this:
> YouTube - Hadith of the Holy Prophet Pathan of the Khorasan are the Army of Imam Mahdi




The Army of Mahdi has to be led by Mahdi, right now taliban are being led by Mullah Omar............According to the Prophecy, the Imam Mahdi will be a Syed(Descendant of The Holy Prophet's(P.B.U.H) family) which Mullah Omar is not. It also states that Mahdi will be noticed by some pious men while performing Hajj, who will convince him he is the one, which he will continue to deny until the men indicate the similarities between the Mahdi's attributes and the man's. Which is not the case in Mullah Omar's case, therefore your Army of Mahdi claim is probably false, unless you can prove otherwise...........................


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## Always Neutral

*THE BURKHA CLAD ARMY OF TALIBAN NOW WANT THEIR OWN EMBEDDED JOURNALIST!



FUNDAMENTALIST, ILLUMINITUS, CONDOR ETC WHAT SAY ?

DONT FORGET TO TAKE ADEQUATE SUPPLY OF BURKHAS WITH YOU SINCE THAT SEEMS THE TALIBAN'S BATTLE DRESS.

Regards*

Taliban invite journalists to Afghan battleground

In an emailed invitation to a foreign news agency, the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" -- as the Taliban called itself during its 1996-2001 rule invited "all independent mass media outlets of the world to send their reporters to Marjah".

Reporters who accepted would "see the situation with their own eyes and convey the facts to the public of the world," the email said.


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## Parashuram1

The Taliban have become a pain not just for Afghanistan but also for the entire world and if all countries value humanity and freedom of life, they should help ISAF and all those countries who support the ouster of Taliban.

Imagine the level of freedom, education, development opportunities Afghanistan has in its future just like China and India of today. An economy has to be built there and then gradually rise of job opportunities, better standards of living, more educated population and other such positive factors to develop along with being an established democracy.

The Taliban don't want all that. Their primitive and barbarian tactics are nothing short of inhuman and they deserve what they are getting. First of, they should be ashamed of being Afghans and bringing this misfortune to their own countrymen. If they indeed honor their lands, then how did they have the heart to bring such misery to their lands?

Contrary to this title, Taliban will go down just as it had risen with support of many sympathizers tucked away in their safety of democratic and better-off countries while the Afghans kept suffering. Even today's suffering of war is again blamed on the forces that seek to stabilize Afghanistan. Many members here argue that "American imperialists want to take the resources of Afghanistan". Nothing comes for free and Afghan nationals shall definitely be paid for their resources just as every other trade goes around the world. 

If Afghanistan is indeed rich in minerals, then their economy could easily become one of the most established and prosperous in Asia. But this is only possible if certain countries are willing to sympathize with Afghanistan rather than Taliban alone and help it become a secure, democratic, free-minded and self-reliant state.


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## DaRk WaVe

Always Neutral said:


> Taliban invite journalists to Afghan battleground
> 
> In an emailed invitation to a foreign news agency, the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" -- as the Taliban called itself during its 1996-2001 rule invited "all independent mass media outlets of the world to send their reporters to Marjah".
> 
> Reporters who accepted would "see the situation with their own eyes and convey the facts to the public of the world," the email said.



I don't think any Journalist will go there, after all they can behead any one anytime by calling 'em 'American Spy', so better send some key Board Jehadis Down there, I think they want some action now 

& about Burqa, The Brave God Fearing Maulana Aunt have tried to escape under Burqa & were humiliated in front of whole world & it will happen again & again

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## Icarus

EmO GiRl said:


> I don't think any Journalist will go them after all they can behead any one anytime by calling 'em American Spy, so better send some* key Board Jehadis* Down there
> 
> & about Burqa, Maulana Aunt have tried to escape under Burqa & were humiliated in front of whole world & it will happen again & again



Thats a cool new term !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Desert Fox

gambit said:


> *Why are you avoiding the question? *



I'm not avoiding the question, i told you the plain truth! Muslims leaders don't care what happens to their fellow Muslims! A good example is the Gaza Massacre and how Egypt is building a wall to seal off Gaza strip!




gambit said:


> May be you either forget or did not know but the muslims supported Saddam Hussein as well.



Of course Muslims supported Saddam Hussein, but it was also the Muslims who later on provided American army land bases to launch Operation Desert Storm against Saddam and his Army in 1991.

But tell me, was it the Muslims who gave Saddam Chemical weapons?





gambit said:


> If anything, Saddam Hussein needed the approval and support of the muslims more than he did from US. It was a muslims against muslims war. It was about muslim, not American or European, oil interests.



America was pissed off at Iran for overthrowing the Shah's regime and for bringing in a Shiah Islamic regime, and this is where the Saudi's came in! Saudi's didn't want Iran to spread its Shiah ideology so they supported Saddam and American's supported Saddam against Iran!


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> *THE BURKHA CLAD ARMY OF TALIBAN NOW WANT THEIR OWN EMBEDDED JOURNALIST!
> 
> 
> 
> FUNDAMENTALIST, ILLUMINITUS, CONDOR ETC WHAT SAY ?
> 
> DONT FORGET TO TAKE ADEQUATE SUPPLY OF BURKHAS WITH YOU SINCE THAT SEEMS THE TALIBAN'S BATTLE DRESS.
> 
> Regards*
> 
> Taliban invite journalists to Afghan battleground
> 
> In an emailed invitation to a foreign news agency, the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" -- as the Taliban called itself during its 1996-2001 rule invited "all independent mass media outlets of the world to send their reporters to Marjah".
> 
> Reporters who accepted would "see the situation with their own eyes and convey the facts to the public of the world," the email said.



ISAF never allow independent reporters because it will creat anger in muslim world after release of picture of innocient citizens killed by ISAF bombing.


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> ISAF never allow independent reporters because it will creat anger in muslim world after release of picture of innocient citizens killed by ISAF bombing.



Why worry what the ISAF thinks? The article points out that the lovely and brotherly Taliban wish your esteemed company as their embedded journalist and we look forward to learn the true story from you now? 

Come on are U shirking from the honor of Jehad without weapon?

Regards

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> ISAF never allow independent reporters because it will creat anger in muslim world after release of picture of innocient citizens killed by ISAF bombing.



You must be kidding me. it is not the isaf but the Taliban who are anti journalists. The taliban took an italian journalist hostage and only freed him after their demand was met by the GoA, they beheaded the afghan driver and later on chopped off the head of afghan journalist(Ajmal Naqshbandi) who was accompanying the italian journalist.

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## Solomon2

The Taliban _like_ journalists! Kidnapped for ransom or slaughtered like sheep, the Taliban considers journalists are good for money or eating!

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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> You were just short of saying that.



Again, STOP putting words in my mouth, if i didn't say it, i didn't say it! 







Unity said:


> Nope, i dont consider everyone as angel and i dont consider pakisan as devil, i was just trying to tell you how you were wrong in your assessments and ideas.



But your here spewing all this nonsense against Pakistan, as if Pakistan was the only country involved in Afghanistan's civil war after Soviet withdrawal?

Iran and india also had a BIG hand in the war!






Unity said:


> Ask the americans, i dont know. I never said and will never say that the americans are there to help us, they help themselves, but if we are clever enough we can take benefit from that situation.



Again, your hypocrisy is showing! You love it when America plays around with your country, invades it and makes things worse, and you love it when india uses Afghanistan to wage proxy wars against Pakistan, but when Pakistan retaliates you cry wolf?






Unity said:


> No, i dont say that, but if you didnt allow that 2 millions afghans in your soil, *you couldnt find any recruits to train to go to afghanistan and fight the russians, you were only interested to save pakistan,*



If Pakistan hadn't supported the Mujahideen fight against Soviets then you people would have been singing the Soviet National Anthem today!




Unity said:


> you are wrong to say you helped afghanistan, cuz you didnt.



Then who did, tell me who helped Afghanistan? Who let 3 million refuges cross border? If we wanted to we could have let all you Afghans die right at our border, but we didn't!






Unity said:


> Do you know who the NA was? they were the mujahideen who were fighting against the russians(with the exception of one man) and they were under the protection and help of pakistan. later on you stopped supporting them and prefered Gulbudin, by helping him you fueled the civil war, thats how the NA asked for help from India, otherwise the so called NA was your servents before that.



Your argument holds no water! Like i repeated thousand times before, india used Afghanistan as a base to supply and fund BLA terrorist against Pakistan (this is before the Afghan civil war and before NA came into existence), so in retaliation we used Mujahideen factions against indian influence!







Unity said:


> I might or might not be uneducated, but the fact is i know alot about my country. I can never forget the proxy wars, i have literally mentioned in alot of my posts, this is exactly what i am intended to say. it is all about proxy wars, india-pakistan, alqaeda-america, and others, * it is a lie to say that you care about afghanistan, because you dont,* you are only interested in your proxies. Freedom, muslims, freedom fighters, good taliban and bad taliban etc they are all the deception.



Like i said, if it wasn't for Pakistan supporting Mujahideen, you people would have been singing Soviet National Anthem today!





Unity said:


> You did it for your own purpose.



And i'll repeat myself again, if it wasn't for Pakistan, you Afghans would have been singing the Soviet National Anthem, and your National Flag would have a Hammer and Sickle on it!





Unity said:


> Only it is because of the pressure from your american masters.



You mean your American masters! You love it when they occupy your country!

We want the Americans and Karzai to reconcile with Taliban so that there can be a stable Afghanistan with a Stable government, and this in return will stabilize Pakistan! But the indians (whom you love so much) want to continue the war for their own purpose (indians don't give a damn about you)! They don't care how many suicide bombings or NATO air strikes kill innocent Afghans, they only want to harm Pakistan!




Unity said:


> And pakistan want the taliban to fight! does that bring any peace?



Your proving my point, your really good at making up BS!

Since when did i say Pakistan wants Taliban to continue the war? Pakistan is helping Afghan Gov and America to *RECONCILE* with Taliban!

Do you even know what *RECONCILE* means? *It means to bring to or more feuding sides/factions to an agreement so that a conflict can be brought to an END!
*




Unity said:


> No, no hypocracy, just telling *the truth.*



And the truth is your a hypocrite, thanks for proving my point!





Unity said:


> *Tell me, why, of all countries who ****** up Afghanistan, you choose Pakistan?
> 
> Tell me, why?*



your the one who is full of hatred towards Pakistan, not me!



Unity said:


> Because pakistan did most of the things and still not leaving us alone.



How can we leave you alone, your our neighbor, its not like we can pick Pakistan up and put it somewhere else on the map!

If india is going to use your soil against Pakistan then we're going to have to retaliate!






Unity said:


> NO, i dont hate pakisan as a matter of fact i respect nation of pakistan. criticizing your wrong foreign policy is something else.


 
You should be criticizing America's foreign policy! If they hadn't abandoned Afghanistan in this mess, Afghanistan wouldn't be in a civil war and therefore Pakistan, Iran, and india wouldn't have the chance to be involved in Afghan conflict!

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## Condor

Always Neutral said:


> *THE BURKHA CLAD ARMY OF TALIBAN NOW WANT THEIR OWN EMBEDDED JOURNALIST!
> 
> 
> 
> FUNDAMENTALIST, ILLUMINITUS, CONDOR ETC WHAT SAY ?
> 
> DONT FORGET TO TAKE ADEQUATE SUPPLY OF BURKHAS WITH YOU SINCE THAT SEEMS THE TALIBAN'S BATTLE DRESS.
> 
> Regards*
> 
> Taliban invite journalists to Afghan battleground
> 
> In an emailed invitation to a foreign news agency, the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" -- as the Taliban called itself during its 1996-2001 rule invited "all independent mass media outlets of the world to send their reporters to Marjah".
> 
> Reporters who accepted would "see the situation with their own eyes and convey the facts to the public of the world," the email said.


And you are Always Neutral? HUH!!

You give a new meaning to neutrality

Never seen a bigger HYPOCRITE.

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## Desert Fox

EmO GiRl said:


> *I don't think any Journalist will go there, after all they can behead any one anytime by calling 'em 'American Spy', *so better send some key Board Jehadis Down there, I think they want some action now



I hope you know a british Journalist Yvonne Ridley converted to Islam after she was captured by Taliban in Afghanistan!

She converted after she saw how well Taliban treated her with respect and honor!

Below is her whole story, you might want to watch all the parts to this video, she explains her experience under Taliban!






Seriously, Taliban aren't Americans, britishers or israelis who tortured their captives in Bagram, Guantanamo, and Abu Ghraib!

Taliban know how to treat a woman with respect, but Americans tortured Dr.Afia when they held her in Bagram!

But i understand you people have hatred for Islam!

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## DaRk WaVe

SilentNinja said:


> I hope you know a british Journalist Yvonne Ridley converted to Islam after she was captured by Taliban in Afghanistan!
> 
> She converted after she saw how well Taliban treated her with respect and honor!
> 
> Below is her whole story, you might want to watch all the parts to this video, she explains her experience under Taliban!
> 
> YouTube - 11/13/2007 Behind Enemy Lines by Yvonne Ridly Part 1 of 12
> 
> Seriously, Taliban aren't Americans, britishers or israelis who tortured their captives in Bagram, Guantanamo, and Abu Ghraib!
> 
> Taliban know how to treat a woman with respect, but Americans tortured Dr.Afia when they held her in Bagram!
> 
> *But i understand you people have hatred for Islam!*



before you jump in with your guns & declare me an Infidel I am a Muslim & a proud Muslim, so please

I condemn all inhumae acts conducted whether by Taliban or ISAF


Al right i agree i got she must have been treated good but have you ever heard of Taliban battering women???

Don't you know about Korean Hostages & recently the Italian one?

http://www.rawa.org/women.php

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Life_Death_ThirdWorld/Taliban_WarWomen.html

& this take some time & read all parts 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/world/asia/18hostage.html

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## Icarus

SilentNinja said:


> I hope you know a british Journalist Yvonne Ridley converted to Islam after she was captured by Taliban in Afghanistan!
> 
> She converted after she saw how well Taliban treated her with respect and honor!
> 
> Below is her whole story, you might want to watch all the parts to this video, she explains her experience under Taliban!
> 
> YouTube - 11/13/2007 Behind Enemy Lines by Yvonne Ridly Part 1 of 12
> 
> Seriously, Taliban aren't Americans, britishers or israelis who tortured their captives in Bagram, Guantanamo, and Abu Ghraib!
> 
> Taliban know how to treat a woman with respect, but Americans tortured Dr.Afia when they held her in Bagram!
> 
> But i understand you people have hatred for Islam!



Ok, thats one but what about these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Burton_(journalist)
Pierre Billaud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Johanne Sutton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volker Handloik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aziz Ullah Haidari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
These are only some of the victims of Taliban, if you want to find more, i'm sure you can just google it up.

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## Always Neutral

Condor said:


> And you are Always Neutral? HUH!!
> 
> You give a new meaning to neutrality
> 
> Never seen a bigger HYPOCRITE.



jUST AMAZED how these key board jehadist avoided their brother burkha Talibans offer to be their embedded journalist. Yvonne converted to Islam not Taliban.

Get a life and go to help your taliban brothers.

Regards

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## DaRk WaVe

Always Neutral said:


> j*UST AMAZED how these key board jehadist avoided their brother burkha Talibans offer to be their embedded journalist*.


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## Spring Onion

Unity said:


> You must be kidding me. it is not the isaf but the Taliban who are anti journalists. The taliban took an italian journalist hostage and only freed him after their demand was met by the GoA, they beheaded the afghan driver and later on chopped off the head of afghan journalist(Ajmal Naqshbandi) who was accompanying the italian journalist.



 Journalists are easiest prey to use for bargaining and its not something new which Taliban had discovered.


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## Desert Fox

EmO GiRl said:


> before you jump in with your guns & declare me an Infidel I am a Muslim & a proud Muslim, so please



I never said your a infidel, but your love for the Emo cult (they cut themselves when their depressed) show's that you admire western culture more than Islam!

But that's your own choice, but please, don't bash others who follow Islam, don't call them "women beaters" because you and i haven't seen anything, you and i haven't witnessed anything, so why should we be the judges of what Taliban do! If they were as bad as the world claims they are, then they would have been done with already!

When truth and falsehood come face to face, falsehood perishes because falsehood is bound to perish by nature!



EmO GiRl said:


> I condemn all inhumae acts conducted whether by Taliban or ISAF



So next time even things out, if you speak against Taliban, you should also speak against atrocities committed by ISAF!




EmO GiRl said:


> Al right i agree i got she must have been treated good but have you ever heard of Taliban battering women???



Crimes against women take place everywhere on this earth! Innocent girls in india are sold into child sex slavery, women in india are beaten by their husbands just because they fail to bring dowry for their husband and his family!Many girls are still buried alive in rural india!

But you see, Americans and the west want to fuel their cause against the Muslims, so they will use any excuse to invade our lands, they only care for their own interest not the innocents suffering!



EmO GiRl said:


> Don't you know about *Korean Hostages* & recently the Italian one?



The Koreans were Christian missionaries, also known as Rice Christians! They took advantage of innocent, poor, starving Afghans by offering them rice and food if they converted to Christianity! And we Muslims are commanded by Allah to prevent another Muslim from going astray from the right path!


Its like i give you food if you in return become a hindu, would you like that?

Seriously, ones religion and faith is not for sale!

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## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> *board jehadist *



would you like it if i call you a *Keyboard Crusader*?

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## Condor

Fundamentalist,

Wud you be able to have Col Imam join us in the discussions here. Its always balancing and so fascinating to have the other side of the story.

Perhaps our respected *Super Mod BLAIN2* can play a crucial part in getting this done.
What say?


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## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> would you like it if i call you a *Keyboard Crusader*?



Feel Free,

If its for my percieved beliefs I am happy and if its for my service in the Armed Forces than even better.

The question is have you done anything for your Taliban Friends other than shed crocodile tears?

Regards


----------



## Gazzi

Why is this becoming a slanging match with members calling each other silly names...please grow up and just get to the topic at hand

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## DaRk WaVe

SilentNinja said:


> I never said your a infidel, but your love for the Emo cult (they cut themselves when their depressed) show's that you admire western culture more than Islam!
> 
> But that's your own choice, but please, don't bash others who follow Islam, don't call them "women beaters" because you and i haven't seen anything, you and i haven't witnessed anything, so why should we be the judges of what Taliban do! If they were as bad as the world claims they are, then they would have been done with already!
> 
> When truth and falsehood come face to face, falsehood perishes because falsehood is bound to perish by nature!



Joke of the day just because i have a particular user name this means i am... 
now have a user name that is Japanese now this means you are  
this is nothing more than rant & personal attack you have no right to comment on me & my faith . I had no other name in my mind so i just did it, Don't know why people here are so much worked up with my user name, No where i have admired western Culture & said anything against Islam, I don't need to clarify myself to you about my religion to & you are no one, i repeat no one to determine my faith & assume things you don't know of 
just because i don't support Taliban does not mean i am no Muslim, GO GET A LIFE

about been witness how many Taliban have you seen doing good things, again nothing more than ranting 



> So next time even things out, if you speak against Taliban, you should also speak against atrocities committed by ISAF!



i have, had & will condemn all acts of nuisance by ISAF & i stand by it, This in no way means i justify the killings of innocents but you & your fellows indirectly justify the killings of Afghan people just for the greater good of God, pathetic, where in Islam is written you blow yourselves in markets in the name of God & kill your own brothers & sisters



> Crimes against women take place everywhere on this earth! Innocent girls in india are sold into child sex slavery, women in india are beaten by their husbands just because they fail to bring dowry for their husband and his family!Many girls are still buried alive in rural india!
> 
> But you see, Americans and the west want to fuel their cause against the Muslims, so they will use any excuse to invade our lands, they only care for their own interest not the innocents suffering!



the most pathetic thing we Pakistanis do is we start comparing, EVIL IS EVIL, there is nothing in this world which says 'my evil is smaller than yours', Muslims are maligned no doubt, But take a good look don't we indirectly provide them with opportunities to malign us, Think about it? Our perception is so bad that Muslims are now universally called Terrorists, is the Gun the way out? NO WAY, how many higher education universities have been opened by Taliban who call themselves the Saviour of Islam, where in Islam is written you stop women from education?



> The Koreans were Christian missionaries, also known as Rice Christians! They took advantage of innocent, poor, starving Afghans by offering them rice and food if they converted to Christianity! And we Muslims are commanded by Allah to prevent another Muslim from going astray from the right path!
> 
> Its like i give you food if you in return become a hindu, would you like that?
> Seriously, ones religion and faith is not for sale!



Hunger is one thing that can turn people cannibals, agreed they were Christian Missionary but think for a moment if something like this happened to Muslim preaching Islam, what will be your reaction

& wow you can slaughter Koreans, is that justified in any case??? & if i am not wrong they took some money before releasing some the rest of 'em
We are only giving them reasons to Malign Islam nothing else, the line "Islam is religion of peace & i will kill you to prove that" is been used against us, THINK for God Sake

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## Arik

SilentNinja said:


> your kidding right? Do you know who brought opium production to a halt in the history of Afghanistan? Taliban did, and no one else! In fact, do you know how many people internationally lost their jobs due to the Taliban bringing an end to narcotics trade in Afghanistan? Millions of people all over the world in, including in the FBI and CIA lost their jobs because they weren't needed anymore and this took a big toll on the organizations of many countries that used illegal narcotics as a way to gain influence and money in poor nations. So basically this angered many people in Moscow, Washington, Beijing, and god knows where else! 76% (that's a lot) of the worlds opium came from Afghanistan before Taliban rule!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even Hamas has a lot of money, but the problems is how are they supposed to spend it when they can't buy anything?
> 
> Like i said before, when you don't have skilled workers you can't build anything!



www.usip.org/files/resources/taliban_opium_1.pdf


----------



## Arik

Actually i am a bit suprised after reading the comments posted by Pakistani members .it appears that majority of Pakistanis atleast on this forum have a soft corner for the Taliban.It is the same Taliban that killed 3000 people in Pakistan last year and around 300 so far this year.

I just don't understand.


----------



## Ahmad

Jana said:


> Journalists are easiest prey to use for bargaining and its not something new which Taliban had discovered.



what is your opinion? was it a good act by the taliban or bad? they beheaded 2 innocent muslims. by the way one of the members above complained that the taliban's voice dont get heard because they dont have access to the journalists, thats why i told him the story of Ajmal Naqshbandi.


----------



## Desert Fox

Arik said:


> Actually i am a bit *suprised* after reading the comments posted by Pakistani members .it appears that majority of Pakistanis atleast on this forum have a soft corner for the Taliban.



Don't be, its nothing new!



Arik said:


> *It is the same Taliban that killed 3000 people in Pakistan last year and around 300 so far this year.*



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/world/asia/23taliban.html



Arik said:


> I just don't understand.



Of course you don't, because your country has never been invaded, plundered, and torn by war for more than 30 years, and has not been occupied by 2 superpowers in 3 decades time!

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## Desert Fox

Arik said:


> www.usip.org/files/resources/taliban_opium_1.pdf



Afghanistan, Opium and the Taliban

*" U.N. drug control officers said the Taliban religious militia has nearly wiped out opium production in Afghanistan -- once the world's largest producer -- since banning poppy cultivation last summer.

A 12-member team from the U.N. Drug Control Program spent two weeks searching most of the nation's largest opium-producing areas and found so few poppies that they do not expect any opium to come out of Afghanistan this year.

"We are not just guessing. We have seen the proof in the fields," said Bernard Frahi, regional director for the U.N. program in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He laid out photographs of vast tracts of land cultivated with wheat alongside pictures of the same fields taken a year earlier -- a sea of blood-red poppies. "*

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## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> Feel Free,
> 
> If its for my percieved beliefs I am happy and if its for my service in the Armed Forces than even better.
> 
> The question is have you done anything for your Taliban Friends other *than shed crocodile tears?*
> 
> Regards




Nobody's shedding tears here! your just mad that 40+ different countries armed to the teeth can't defeat a ragtag militia!

now that's something to laugh about

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## Arik

SilentNinja said:


> Afghanistan, Opium and the Taliban
> 
> *" U.N. drug control officers said the Taliban religious militia has nearly wiped out opium production in Afghanistan -- once the world's largest producer -- since banning poppy cultivation last summer.
> 
> A 12-member team from the U.N. Drug Control Program spent two weeks searching most of the nation's largest opium-producing areas and found so few poppies that they do not expect any opium to come out of Afghanistan this year.
> 
> "We are not just guessing. We have seen the proof in the fields," said Bernard Frahi, regional director for the U.N. program in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He laid out photographs of vast tracts of land cultivated with wheat alongside pictures of the same fields taken a year earlier -- a sea of blood-red poppies. "*



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/world/middleeast/28opium.html


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## Parashuram1

EmO GiRl said:


> I don't think any Journalist will go there, after all they can behead any one anytime by calling 'em 'American Spy', so better send some key Board Jehadis Down there, I think they want some action now
> 
> & about Burqa, The Brave God Fearing Maulana Aunt have tried to escape under Burqa & were humiliated in front of whole world & it will happen again & again


Now that's one really witty answer Emo. Appreciate the good comment.


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## Desert Fox

EmO GiRl said:


> Joke of the day just because i have a particular user name this means i am...
> now have a user name that is Japanese now this means you are
> *this is nothing more than rant & personal attack you have no right to comment on me & my faith* .



lol, look who's talking! Excuse me, but i wasn't the one who's calling Taliban women beaters, you don't even know the people and you judge them! So please practice what you preach




EmO GiRl said:


> you are no one, i repeat no one to determine my faith & assume things you don't know of
> just because i don't support Taliban does not mean i am no Muslim,



Who said your not a Muslims, did i say that? if i did can you kindly quote from my posts, or else what's the point of all this BS you just said?

Don't put words in my mouth, and i REPEAT, don't put words in my mouth



EmO GiRl said:


> *GO GET A LIFE*



I i didn't have a life i wouldn't exist! doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that



EmO GiRl said:


> about been witness how many Taliban have you seen doing good things, again nothing more than ranting



Ranting according to you, but its useful info for me! I can provide you links to soooo many atrocities done at the hands of NATO, America, and british, just let me know when your ready





EmO GiRl said:


> i have, had & will condemn all acts of nuisance by ISAF & i stand by it, This in no way means i justify the killings of innocents *but you & your fellows indirectly justify the killings of Afghan people just for the greater good of God, pathetic, where in Islam is written you blow yourselves in markets in the name of God & kill your own brothers & sisters*



Whoa, you need to take a chill pill! I never said i support Suicide bombings, neither did i say i justify the killings of innocent Afghans!

I want peace in Afghanistan just as much as anyone who is tired of this war! But seriously do you think peace can be brought through war? Do you think Taliban will be defeated militarily?

If so, then your out of your mind because it will only cause more damage and collateral damage in both Afghanistan and Pakistan!

Reconciliation is more like it! Negotiating with Taliban will bring peace, not war! If you don't believe then go ahead, because history has proven it that war has always lead to the defeat of the occupier!





EmO GiRl said:


> the most pathetic thing we Pakistanis do is we start comparing, EVIL IS EVIL,* there is nothing in this world which says 'my evil is smaller than yours',*



Again, stop putting words in my mouth! I never was comparing "Evil with Evil" (what's the difference?), my point was that western media doesn't highlight all the violence and human rights violations going on across the globe, but for some reason they are obsessed with Muslims countries!




EmO GiRl said:


> Muslims are maligned no doubt, But take a good look don't we indirectly provide them with opportunities to malign us, Think about it?



I agree on this point, we have to admit our mistakes sometimes




EmO GiRl said:


> Our perception is so bad that Muslims are now universally called Terrorists, is the Gun the way out? NO WAY



Yeah, gun isn't the way out, but when your land is illegally occupied, and the U.N doesn't do cr@p to help you, then yeah you have to resist with the gun!





EmO GiRl said:


> *, how many higher education universities have been opened by Taliban who call themselves the Saviour of Islam, where in Islam is written you stop women from education?*



Wow, OMG, i'm astonished about your lack of knowledge about Taliban!

I hope this isn't too much to read:

*"And you have criticized us for violating women's rights; now, who knows what happened before us. Only some symbolic schools, or symbolic posts were given to some women in the ministry, and that was called the restoration of women's rights. I can see some Afghans living here, and they will agree with me, that in the rural areas of Afghanistan, women were used as animals. They were SOLD actually. The first thing we have done is to give the self-determination to women, and it happened not in the history of Afghanistan. Throughout the history of Afghanistan, during all the so-called civilized kings or whatever, they didn't give this right to women, so women were sold. ! They didn't have the right to select their husbands, or to reject their husbands. First thing we have done is to let them choose their future. And you will know that throughout south Asia, women are killed under the title of honor killings. It happens when a woman's relation is detected with a man, whether or not the relation was sexual, they're both killed. But now this is not happening in our country. And the third thing that happened only in Afghanistan, was women were exchanged as gifts; this was not something religious; this was something cultural. When two tribal tribes were fighting among themselves, then in order to get their tribal issue reconciliated, they would exchange women, and then [they] would make, or announce reconciliation. And this has been stopped. If we [had to give] fundamental rights of woman, we had to start from zero; we couldn't jump in the middle. Now you've asked me about the rights of women s education and the rights of women's work. Unlike what is said here, women do work in Afghanistan. You're right that until 1997 I mean, in 1996 when we captured the capitol Kabul, we did ask women to stay home. It didn't mean that we wanted them to stay at home forever, but nobody listened to us. We said that there is no law, and there is no order, and have to stay at home. They were raped before us, everyday. So, after we disarmed the people, and after we brought law and order, and now women are working. You are right that women are not working in the ministry of defense, like here. We don t want our women to be fighter pilot, or to be used as objects of decoration for advertisements. But they do work. They work in the Ministry of Health, Interior, Ministry of Education, Ministry of Social Affairs, and so on. So, and we don t have any problem with women's education. We have said that we want education, and we will have education whether or not we are under anybody's pressure, because that is part of our belief. We are ordered to do that. When we say that there should be segregated schools, it does not mean that we don't want our women to be educated. It is true that we are against co-education; but it is not true that we are against women's education. We do have schools even now, but the problem is the resources. We cannot expand these programs. Before our government there were numerous curriculums that were going on; there were curriculums which preached the king for the kings, and there were curriculums which preached for the communists, and there were curriculums from all these seven parties [the previously mentioned]. So, the Students were confused as to what to study, and the first we have done today is to unify that curriculum, and that's going on. But we are criticized, and we say that instead of criticism, if you just help us once, that will make a difference. Because criticism will not make a difference. If you [talk?] criticism from New York, thousands of miles away, we don t care. But if you come there and help us, we do care. So actually there are more girls students studying in the faculty of medical sciences than boys are. This is not me who is saying this, it is the United Nations who has announced this. Recently we reopened the faculty of medical science in all major cities of Afghanistan and in Kandahar, there are more girl students than boys. ! But they are segregated. And the Swedish committees have also established schools for girls. I know they are not enough, but that s what we can do. So, that is what I say that we have restored. I don't say we are 100&#37; perfect, and nobody will say that they are 100% perfect. We do have shortcomings, and we do need to amend our policies. But we can't do everything overnight."*

Truth about Taliban & Buddha statues

You might also want to check this out, an actual interview of Taliban envoy before the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, its the story from the Talibans POV: http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/43309-interview-taliban.html






EmO GiRl said:


> Hunger is one thing that can turn people cannibals, agreed they were Christian Missionary but think for a moment* if something like this happened to Muslim preaching Islam, what will be your reaction*



I think a person should understand Islam in order to convert to it! For example, when a person converting to Islam recites the Kalima Sherrif he first has to understand its meaning, same goes for when a person converts he must understand Islam!



EmO GiRl said:


> & wow you can slaughter Koreans, is that justified in any case???



Well, yeah it is, if you don't believe me then search it up for yourself!

On the day of judgment you will be responsible for that kid going astray from the path of Islam!



EmO GiRl said:


> & if i am not wrong they took some money before releasing some the rest of 'em



At least they didn't torture the women!



EmO GiRl said:


> We are only giving them reasons to Malign Islam nothing else, the line "Islam is religion of peace & i will kill you to prove that" is been used against us, THINK for God Sake



We, what we? You mean you? Appeasement isn't going to solve anything!

Tell me, what wrong did those 1 million+ innocent iraqi children do to America to deserve dying from being sanctioned? 1 million+ iraqi infants dies of malnutrition, but what was their fault?

like i said, we didn't do **** to these occupiers, they invaded our lands, and you want us to be nice? lol, got to be joking right?


----------



## Desert Fox

Arik said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/world/middleeast/28opium.html



Its really childish to say Taliban get there $$ from opium! Seriously, who are you fooling? Certainly not me!

We all know America is supporting a government made our of warlords and thugs who run narcotics business!

Lets not forget about Hamid Karzais brother!

Taliban have stated that they get their money from abroad from Muslims who sympathize with their cause, and there are more than a million ways to smuggle guns, weapons, and bombs through Afghanistan!

Taliban have said that western media is defaming them! But hey, what do they care, their winning the war anyways, and the world's sole "superpower" is trying to negotiate with them!

Seriously, keep this childish nonsense, its just too funny to read that i can't help but laugh


----------



## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> :



*
But your here spewing all this nonsense against Pakistan, as if Pakistan was the only country involved in Afghanistan's civil war after Soviet withdrawal?

Iran and india also had a BIG hand in the war!*

Nop, not nonsense, it makes a great deal of sense. You are right, pakistan was not the only proxy power in Afghanistan, but it was the most effective and number one. India was involved, iran was involved, but the suffer we took was mostly from pakistan. And dont say you helped us, you care about us, muslim brothers, jihad, freedom, etc, because non of those mean nothing, you were/are just busy pushing your proxy war with your rivals, brotherhood and muslimhood was something false.


*
Again, your hypocrisy is showing! You love it when America plays around with your country, invades it and makes things worse, and you love it when india uses Afghanistan to wage proxy wars against Pakistan, but when Pakistan retaliates you cry wolf?*

Why should i differntiate between american and pakistan? they are both foreginers to us, you should never forget why america invaded afghanistan. americans are also busy fighting their proxy war in afghanistan just like the others. i am glad you mentioned the pakistani retaliation yourself, it only proves that you guys are interested in your proxies, brotherhood and muslimhood is nothing but a false statement.

*
If Pakistan hadn't supported the Mujahideen fight against Soviets then you people would have been singing the Soviet National Anthem today!*

i wish americans and pakistan as well as the others never helped us(so called help), then there wouldnt have been any death and destruciton for the last 30 years. by the way, you didnt help us, you helped yourself, if you didnt have a benefit in this so called help, you would never have done anyting, you only managed to save your own skin from the might of the soviets. if it wasnt for our suffering i think your national anthem would be in russian rather than Pak Sarzameen Ka Neshan.

*
Then who did, tell me who helped Afghanistan? Who let 3 million refuges cross border? If we wanted to we could have let all you Afghans die right at our border, but we didn't!*

You did all those for your own benefit, simple as that.


*
Your argument holds no water! Like i repeated thousand times before, india used Afghanistan as a base to supply and fund BLA terrorist against Pakistan (this is before the Afghan civil war and before NA came into existence), so in retaliation we used Mujahideen factions against indian influence!*

Here is another confesion by you confirming my point!!! it is all about proxy war, so never claim that you helped us, you helped yourself and dont put this false Ahsan on us.


*
Like i said, if it wasn't for Pakistan supporting Mujahideen, you people would have been singing Soviet National Anthem today!*

Wish you didnt, we would then had our national anthem in russian toghether.

*
And i'll repeat myself again, if it wasn't for Pakistan, you Afghans would have been singing the Soviet National Anthem, and your National Flag would have a Hammer and Sickle on it!*

And you too would have had a russian national anthem if the afghans didnt lose their lives fighting this war.

*
You mean your American masters! You love it when they occupy your country!*

If americans are our masters, they are your master too. so same same situation.
*
We want the Americans and Karzai to reconcile with Taliban so that there can be a stable Afghanistan with a Stable government, and this in return will stabilize Pakistan! But the indians (whom you love so much) want to continue the war for their own purpose (indians don't give a damn about you)! They don't care how many suicide bombings or NATO air strikes kill innocent Afghans, they only want to harm Pakistan!*

Yes, evil indians want war and angel pakistanis want peace and stability in afghanistan, the action of pakistan for the last 3 decades have shown us enough evidence to believe this BS.


*
Since when did i say Pakistan wants Taliban to continue the war? Pakistan is helping Afghan Gov and America to RECONCILE with Taliban!*

Yes, they say it in the public.


*your the one who is full of hatred towards Pakistan, not me!*

No i am not, i am only criticizing the foreign policy. i have got many paksitani friends, i am very close with them. if you dont believe it then it is your problem and i dont have to emphasize on it anymore.


*
How can we leave you alone, your our neighbor, its not like we can pick Pakistan up and put it somewhere else on the map!

If india is going to use your soil against Pakistan then we're going to have to retaliate!*

Confirming my point again, proxy. dont say you supposedly care about us. brotherhood, freedom fighters, muslimhood etc are all false statments.

*
You should be criticizing America's foreign policy! If they hadn't abandoned Afghanistan in this mess, Afghanistan wouldn't be in a civil war and therefore Pakistan, Iran, and india wouldn't have the chance to be involved in Afghan conflict!*

Wish you guys and other proxy powers had left us and abondaned us. in such a situation there wouldnt have been any civial war, and even if there was a war it wouldnt last long. proxy and civial wars need money and foreign back up and support without that non of these stupid factions would have been able to fight forever.



Hope we can put this mistrust behind and move on.


----------



## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> *
> But your here spewing all this nonsense against Pakistan, as if Pakistan was the only country involved in Afghanistan's civil war after Soviet withdrawal?
> 
> Iran and india also had a BIG hand in the war!*
> 
> Nop, not nonsense, it makes a great deal of sense. You are right, pakistan was not the only proxy power in Afghanistan, but it was the most effective and number one. India was involved, iran was involved, but the suffer we took was mostly from pakistan. And dont say you helped us, you care about us, muslim brothers, jihad, freedom, etc, because non of those mean nothing, you were/are just busy pushing your proxy war with your rivals, brotherhood and muslimhood was something false.
> 
> 
> *
> Again, your hypocrisy is showing! You love it when America plays around with your country, invades it and makes things worse, and you love it when india uses Afghanistan to wage proxy wars against Pakistan, but when Pakistan retaliates you cry wolf?*
> 
> Why should i differntiate between american and pakistan? they are both foreginers to us, you should never forget why america invaded afghanistan. americans are also busy fighting their proxy war in afghanistan just like the others. i am glad you mentioned the pakistani retaliation yourself, it only proves that you guys are interested in your proxies, brotherhood and muslimhood is nothing but a false statement.
> 
> *
> If Pakistan hadn't supported the Mujahideen fight against Soviets then you people would have been singing the Soviet National Anthem today!*
> 
> i wish americans and pakistan as well as the others never helped us(so called help), then there wouldnt have been any death and destruciton for the last 30 years. by the way, you didnt help us, you helped yourself, if you didnt have a benefit in this so called help, you would never have done anyting, you only managed to save your own skin from the might of the soviets. if it wasnt for our suffering i think your national anthem would be in russian rather than Pak Sarzameen Ka Neshan.
> 
> *
> Then who did, tell me who helped Afghanistan? Who let 3 million refuges cross border? If we wanted to we could have let all you Afghans die right at our border, but we didn't!*
> 
> You did all those for your own benefit, simple as that.
> 
> 
> *
> Your argument holds no water! Like i repeated thousand times before, india used Afghanistan as a base to supply and fund BLA terrorist against Pakistan (this is before the Afghan civil war and before NA came into existence), so in retaliation we used Mujahideen factions against indian influence!*
> 
> Here is another confesion by you confirming my point!!! it is all about proxy war, so never claim that you helped us, you helped yourself and dont put this false Ahsan on us.
> 
> 
> *
> Like i said, if it wasn't for Pakistan supporting Mujahideen, you people would have been singing Soviet National Anthem today!*
> 
> Wish you didnt, we would then had our national anthem in russian toghether.
> 
> *
> And i'll repeat myself again, if it wasn't for Pakistan, you Afghans would have been singing the Soviet National Anthem, and your National Flag would have a Hammer and Sickle on it!*
> 
> And you too would have had a russian national anthem if the afghans didnt lose their lives fighting this war.
> 
> *
> You mean your American masters! You love it when they occupy your country!*
> 
> If americans are our masters, they are your master too. so same same situation.
> *
> We want the Americans and Karzai to reconcile with Taliban so that there can be a stable Afghanistan with a Stable government, and this in return will stabilize Pakistan! But the indians (whom you love so much) want to continue the war for their own purpose (indians don't give a damn about you)! They don't care how many suicide bombings or NATO air strikes kill innocent Afghans, they only want to harm Pakistan!*
> 
> Yes, evil indians want war and angel pakistanis want peace and stability in afghanistan, the action of pakistan for the last 3 decades have shown us enough evidence to believe this BS.
> 
> 
> *
> Since when did i say Pakistan wants Taliban to continue the war? Pakistan is helping Afghan Gov and America to RECONCILE with Taliban!*
> 
> Yes, they say it in the public.
> 
> 
> *your the one who is full of hatred towards Pakistan, not me!*
> 
> No i am not, i am only criticizing the foreign policy. i have got many paksitani friends, i am very close with them. if you dont believe it then it is your problem and i dont have to emphasize on it anymore.
> 
> 
> *
> How can we leave you alone, your our neighbor, its not like we can pick Pakistan up and put it somewhere else on the map!
> 
> If india is going to use your soil against Pakistan then we're going to have to retaliate!*
> 
> Confirming my point again, proxy. dont say you supposedly care about us. brotherhood, freedom fighters, muslimhood etc are all false statments.
> 
> *
> You should be criticizing America's foreign policy! If they hadn't abandoned Afghanistan in this mess, Afghanistan wouldn't be in a civil war and therefore Pakistan, Iran, and india wouldn't have the chance to be involved in Afghan conflict!*
> 
> Wish you guys and other proxy powers had left us and abondaned us. in such a situation there wouldnt have been any civial war, and even if there was a war it wouldnt last long. proxy and civial wars need money and foreign back up and support without that non of these stupid factions would have been able to fight forever.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope we can put this mistrust behind and move on.



Actually, in your above post, all in all, you proved my points! And yeah, i never said we didn't have our own interest! We did, but like i said if we did interfere we did it because of india!




Unity said:


> Hope we can put this mistrust behind and move on.



what do you think we're trying to do, if can get Taliban, America, and Afghan gov to reconcile then there would not be any indian influence left in Afghanistan, and in return we would keep our nose out of your internal affairs as long as you stay neutral in Pakistan-india conflict!


----------



## Thomas

SilentNinja said:


> Nobody's shedding tears here! your just mad that 40+ different countries armed to the teeth can't defeat a ragtag militia!
> 
> now that's something to laugh about



Seems like the Taliban are dieing in large numbers through out Afghanistan. Also have you noticed that when directly challenged on the battlefield. The only thing they can do to slow down ISAF is to hide behind civilans, and set booby traps and I.E.D.'s. 

In the end though Marja is surrounded. So there is no escape for them. they will give up or die. No matter how slowed down the ISAF becomes. Which by the way shows much constraint on the part of the ISAF. In order to minimize civilian casualties.


----------



## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> Actually, in your above post, all in all, you proved my points! And yeah, i never said we didn't have our own interest! We did, but like i said if we did interfere we did it because of india!
> 
> what do you think we're trying to do, if can get Taliban, America, and Afghan gov to reconcile then there would not be any indian influence left in Afghanistan, and in return we would keep our nose out of your internal affairs as long as you stay neutral in Pakistan-india conflict!



Good, then dont cry falselsy about the suffering of Afghans because it is nothing but a big fat lie, and all you care is about proxy wars. By the way, the factions(as you call them NA) which were supported by the indians, they were long before the stooges of pakistan.


----------



## Desert Fox

Thomas said:


> Seems like the Taliban are dieing in larg numbers through out Afghanistan. Also have you noticed that when directly challenged on the battlefield. The only thing they can do to slow down ISAF is to hide behind civilans, and set booby traps and I.E.D.'s.
> 
> In the end though Marja is surrounded. So there is no escape for them. they will give up or die. No matter how slowed down the ISAF becomes. Which by the way shows much constraint on the part of the ISAF. In order to minimize civilian casualties.



lol, look who's talking, the people who hide in tanks, apc's, apaches, f-16's and humvees!

You consider yourself big men?

alright, get our of your tanks, your apaches, apc's, f-16's and fight Taliban face to face with only m-16's, rocket propelled grenades, and machine guns and we'll see how long you last in Afghanistan!

You people won't last a second in Afghanistan without your supplies!

Taliban have more war experience than you do! They were playing with AK's and grenades when your army was in their momy's laps being breast fed!

They were killing machines by the time you guys were watching elmo on Sesame Street!

I would love to see you people without all your high tech armored and airborne vehicles and weapons!

Taliban would make a very terrible example out of you just as the Afghan Militias did with the 16,000 birtish soldiers during the first Anglo-Afghan war where only 1 british soldier was spared (i guess he was used as a messenger to the british Barracks)!


----------



## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> Good, then dont cry falselsy about the suffering of Afghans because it is nothing but a big fat lie, and all you care is about proxy wars. By the way, the factions(as you call them NA) which were supported by the indians, they were long before the stooges of pakistan.



To you its a lie, but i don't really care, keep lying to yourself, your only going to be living in illusion! Even if we try to help you, you think its some kind of conspiracy! No wonder your country is in shambles!

Keep it up my boy, you'll bring your country to more success than it already is!


----------



## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> To you its a lie, but i don't really care, keep lying to yourself, your only going to be living in illusion! Even if we try to help you, you think its some kind of conspiracy! No wonder your country is in shambles!
> 
> Keep it up my boy, you'll bring your country to more success than it already is!



To me it is a lie? NO, it is a lie. You said it yourself above that all and all it was proxy interests. secondly, please dont try to help us. we have seen the result of your help alot, thanks but no thanks.


----------



## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> To me it is a lie? NO, it is a lie. You said it yourself above that all and all it was proxy interests. secondly, please dont try to help us. we have seen the result of your help alot, thanks but no thanks.




Keep living in your fantasy world, you think this will be over? no no no, your wrong! If you can let india use you against us, then yes we will do what we have to do to retaliate!

If you will side with india against us, then we will retaliate!

I can sense your hatred for Pakistan (more like jealousy)!

but keep hating, your only harming yourself!


----------



## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> lol, look who's talking, the people who hide in tanks, apc's, apaches, f-16's and humvees!
> 
> You consider yourself big men?
> 
> alright, get our of your tanks, your apaches, apc's, f-16's and fight Taliban face to face with only m-16's, rocket propelled grenades, and machine guns and we'll see how long you last in Afghanistan!
> 
> You people won't last a second in Afghanistan without your supplies!
> 
> !



Big Man with little intellect the last time I heard the PA and PAF were using the same tactics, tanks and aircrafts as the ISAF against the TTP ?

Are you implying that the PA and PAF are also of the same calibre of the spineless ISAF in tanks and planes?

Carefull boy you stand exposed.

Regards

Reactions: Like Like:
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----------



## Ahmad

Previousely there was talk on how the taliban treat women, here is an example:


----------



## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> Keep living in your fantasy world, you think this will be over? no no no, your wrong! If you can let india use you against us, then yes we will do what we have to do to retaliate!
> 
> If you will side with india against us, then we will retaliate!
> 
> I can sense your hatred for Pakistan (more like jealousy)!
> 
> but keep hating, your only harming yourself!



He is so jealous that he does not want you or the Taliban in his country just as you don't want TTP or do you want them?

Regards


----------



## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> Keep living in your fantasy world, you think this will be over? no no no, your wrong! If you can let india use you against us, then yes we will do what we have to do to retaliate!
> 
> If you will side with india against us, then we will retaliate!
> 
> I can sense your hatred for Pakistan (more like jealousy)!
> 
> but keep hating, your only harming yourself!



who cares about india, they as ajnabi as you are. Your enemy NA was once your own servents, why didnt you complain about them before?

Fantasy cant be for 30 years, we have seen enough of everything, a generation experience. people are illeterate there, but not stupid, they know everything.


----------



## Ahmad

Always Neutral said:


> He is so jealous that he does not want you or the Taliban in his country just as you don't want TTP or do you want them?
> 
> Regards



Trust me we dont have a problem with the taliban if they lay down their weapon and stop destroying our country and killing our people. afghan public can forgive them for the sake of their country. the taliban are destructive force, the destructive force can bring all sort of damage even if they are in small numbers, it is the constructive force which requires alot of energy and resource. the taliban can distrupt everything very easily, but GoA will have huge task ahead by bringing stability.


----------



## gambit

SilentNinja said:


> I'm not avoiding the question, i told you the plain truth! Muslims leaders don't care what happens to their fellow Muslims! A good example is the Gaza Massacre and how Egypt is building a wall to seal off Gaza strip!


But you have avoided the question, and still do. Answer me -- After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, who were (and still are) the most appropriate to help Afghanistan?



SilentNinja said:


> Of course Muslims supported Saddam Hussein, but it was also the Muslims who later on provided American army land bases to launch Operation Desert Storm against Saddam and his Army in 1991.


Good...Then from now on it would be good to lay equal blame on the muslims for the mess in the ME. So much for the myth of muslim unity and brotherhood. Buddy...If *YOU* are one of these oily sheiks, *YOU* would have behaved *EXACTLY* the same way as they are today.



SilentNinja said:


> But tell me, was it the Muslims who gave Saddam Chemical weapons?


Forensic evidences indicated Egypt...

Chemical > WMD statistics - countries compared - NationMaster


> In the 1980s Egypt was a conduit for the supply of precursor chemicals to Iraqs CW program. These chemicals were often obtained from European suppliers and then exported to Iraq.


Please do not insult our intelligences by posting that silly photo-ops picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam Hussein. It mean nothing.

It is not for discussion on Egypt's extensive chemical and biological weapons program. Egypt was the first in the ME and today remain the most sophisticated. Any dual use chemical sources Iraq purchased from US would be no different than if we sold Iraq steel or even trucks. Egypt was the most logical choice for *REFINED* and *PACKAGED* chemical and biological weaponry, as well as technical education and training.



SilentNinja said:


> America was pissed off at Iran for overthrowing the Shah's regime and for bringing in a Shiah Islamic regime, and this is where the Saudi's came in! Saudi's didn't want Iran to spread its Shiah ideology so they supported Saddam and American's supported Saddam against Iran!


Good...Then from now on it would be good to lay equal blame on the muslims for the mess in the ME. So much for the myth of muslim unity and brotherhood. Buddy...If *YOU* were on any of the political leaderships at that time, *YOU* would have behaved *EXACTLY* the same way out of national interests.


----------



## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> They were killing machines by the time you guys were watching elmo on Sesame Street!
> 
> *Time to read History. Killing machines? They were the easiest to conquer.*
> 
> I would love to see you people without all your high tech armored and airborne vehicles and weapons!
> 
> *Give that advise to your countrymen fighting the TTP take some medication and welcome back.*
> 
> Taliban would make a very terrible example out of you just as the Afghan Militias did with the 16,000 birtish soldiers during the first Anglo-Afghan war where only 1 british soldier was spared (i guess he was used as a messenger to the british Barracks)!



Can you give me a specific reference from the History Book or is it weed talk. Btw the people they killed were majority of your own ancestors from British India which included Pakistan. Have some respect for them.



Regards


----------



## gambit

SilentNinja said:


> lol, look who's talking, the people who hide in tanks, apc's, apaches, f-16's and humvees!
> 
> You consider yourself big men?
> 
> alright, get our of your tanks, your apaches, apc's, f-16's and fight Taliban face to face with only m-16's, rocket propelled grenades, and machine guns and we'll see how long you last in Afghanistan!
> 
> You people won't last a second in Afghanistan without your supplies!


Sonny...The goal in war is to win at as much a cost to the enemy as possible and as few the casualties to one's side as possible. I suggest you enlist for a few years and learn the reality of military life and war and come back in few years.

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## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> Big Man with little intellect the last time I heard the PA and PAF were using the same tactics, tanks and aircrafts as the ISAF against the TTP ?
> 
> Are you implying that the PA and PAF are also of the same calibre of the spineless ISAF in tanks and planes?
> 
> Carefull boy you stand exposed.
> 
> Regards



What's Pakistan got anything to do with this? I was replying to your buddy!


Pakistan is not the one occupying Afghanistan and calling calling Taliban cowards who hide behind civilians! its you who is!

You call Taliban cowards, but you yourself are hiding inside tanks?

Careful boy, practice what your preach

They have more guts then you can dream of!


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## Desert Fox

gambit said:


> But you have avoided the question, and still do. Answer me -- After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, who were (and still are) the most appropriate to help Afghanistan?



America.





gambit said:


> Good...Then from now on it would be good to lay equal blame on the muslims for the mess in the ME. So much for the myth of muslim unity and brotherhood. Buddy...If *YOU* are one of these oily sheiks, *YOU* would have behaved *EXACTLY* the same way as they are today.



Al the Muslim leaderships are on America's pay role 






gambit said:


> Please do not insult our intelligences by posting that silly photo-ops picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam Hussein. It mean nothing.



Uhhh huh? what photo? i didn't post any photo.....



gambit said:


> It is not for discussion on Egypt's extensive chemical and biological weapons program. Egypt was the first in the ME and today remain the most sophisticated. Any dual use chemical sources Iraq purchased from US would be no different than if we sold Iraq steel or even trucks. Egypt was the most logical choice for *REFINED* and *PACKAGED* chemical and biological weaponry, as well as technical education and training.



Still doesn't change the fact your gave him weapons


----------



## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> What's Pakistan got anything to do with this? I was replying to your buddy!
> 
> 
> Pakistan is not the one occupying Afghanistan and calling calling Taliban cowards who hide behind civilians! its you who is!
> 
> You call Taliban cowards, but you yourself are hiding inside tanks?
> 
> Careful boy, practice what your preach
> 
> They have more guts then you can dream of!



Taliban and TTP are using human shields whereas PA and ISAF are using Tanks as shields.

Taliban and TTP are escaping wearing burqas whereas PA and ISAF fight wearing uniforms.

Taliban and TTP caress bottoms (sorry whip) of their sisters in the name of Islam whereas PA and ISAF don't.

Taliban and TTP have fled whenever they see the PA and ISAF in battle.

So the similarity in the tactics of PA and ISAF and hence they are equally brave or equally spineless so choose ur sides carefully young boy.

Regards


----------



## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> He is so jealous that he does not want you or the Taliban in his country just as you don't want TTP or do you want them?
> 
> Regards



No, he's jealous that his country is being occupied, torn up, destroyed, and its being used by foreign and regional powers for their own gains!

While Pakistan, despite it hardships has come out stronger than before! Every challenge we face makes us stronger!

And with god blessing we continue to stand no matter how hard our enemies try to bring us down!


----------



## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> You call Taliban cowards, but you yourself are hiding inside tanks?
> 
> Careful boy, practice what your preach
> 
> They have more guts then you can dream of!



I consider TTP as cowards too but I suppose you find them very brave ? Come one out with the truth.


----------



## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> Taliban and TTP are using human shields whereas PA and ISAF are using Tanks as shields.
> 
> Taliban and TTP are escaping wearing burqas whereas PA and ISAF fight wearing uniforms.
> 
> Taliban and TTP caress bottoms (sorry whip) of their sisters in the name of Islam whereas PA and ISAF don't.
> 
> Taliban and TTP have fled whenever they see the PA and ISAF in battle.
> 
> So the similarity in the tactics of PA and ISAF and hence they are equally brave or equally spineless so choose ur sides carefully young boy.
> 
> Regards



Well, i would choose PA and PAF because they are not occupying another country


----------



## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> No, he's jealous that his country is being occupied, torn up, destroyed, and its being used by foreign and regional powers for their own gains!
> 
> While Pakistan, despite it hardships has come out stronger than before! Every challenge we face makes us stronger!
> 
> And with god blessing we continue to stand no matter how hard our enemies try to bring us down!



The only enemy bringing you down are fellow TTP brothers  the rest is a figment of your and your spin doctors fertile imagination.


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## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> Well, i would choose PA and PAF because they are not occupying another country



Not if you asked the TTP? 

Similarly not if you ask the majority of the Afghans.

Well done self goal


----------



## gambit

> Answer me -- After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, who were (and still are) the most appropriate to help Afghanistan?
> 
> 
> SilentNinja said:
> 
> 
> 
> America.
Click to expand...

You really must learn to keep track of your arguments....


SilentNinja said:


> Taliban have stated that they get their money from abroad from Muslims who sympathize with their cause, and there are more than a million ways to smuggle guns, weapons, and bombs through Afghanistan!


Sooo...We have muslims who do not believe that the US was the most appropriate choice for Afghanistan, even *YOU* pretty much said so by your own words. It does not matter at this point if it was guns instead of butter. But if it was state level, then Afghanistan would have received both guns and butter along with true muslim unity and brotherhood since it would have been the muslims themselves who provided those guns and butter.



SilentNinja said:


> Al the Muslim leaderships are on America's pay role


Then we would have paid them to lay off Israel. We would have paid them to take over Iraq instead of US doing it.



SilentNinja said:


> Still doesn't change the fact your gave him weapons


You mean AK-47s and MIGs are American products?


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## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> The only enemy bringing you down are fellow TTP brothers  the rest is a figment of your and your spin doctors fertile imagination.



Really? But didn't PA dismantle TTP networks in SWAT valley and cleared them off from there? Didn't PA capture South Waziristan from TTP?


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## Desert Fox

gambit said:


> You really must learn to keep track of your arguments....



naahhh, you should keep track of yours 



gambit said:


> Sooo...We have muslims who do not believe that the US was the most appropriate choice for Afghanistan, even *YOU* pretty much said so by your own words. It does not matter at this point if it was guns instead of butter. But if it was state level, then Afghanistan would have received both guns and butter along with true muslim unity and brotherhood since it would have been the muslims themselves who provided those guns and butter.



well, after Taliban came into power America wanted to return to Afghanistan, but when soviets withdrew and civil was broke out American left Afghanistan and were partying in Washington!

You should watch "Charlie Wilson's war"! Even your own politicians admit that they made a mistake by leaving Afghanistan after Soviet withdrawal!




gambit said:


> Then we would have paid them to lay off Israel. We would have paid them to take over Iraq instead of US doing it.



elaborate please?




gambit said:


> You mean AK-47s and MIGs are American products?



I was talking about chemical weapons, stop putting words in my mouth!


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## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> Really? But didn't PA dismantle TTP networks in SWAT valley and cleared them off from there? Didn't PA capture South Waziristan from TTP?



They are trying their best but if they had cleared it than you would not have a Cobra and a brave Brigadier down. Does that prove that the TTP cannot be defeated?

We face the same situation this side of the border alongwith the ANA. When the total writ of the PA runs over the areas cleared by PA and there is peace come back to boast till then feel happy that PA and ISAF are on the same side against the scum Taliban and their twin brothers TTP.

Regards


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## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> Not if you asked the TTP?
> 
> Similarly not if you ask the majority of the Afghans.
> 
> Well done self goal




TTP only existed for 3-4 years, whereas Afghanistan is a sovereign nation whom your brave armies are occupying!

Its really sad that even when your technologically superior to Taliban you can't defeat them! how sad 

PA on the other hand armed with only Cobras from the 70's and G3's, lightly armored vehicles, and we don't even have half the thigs you guys have in Afghanistan yet we slaughtered the TTP who is more heavily armed than Afghan Taliban!


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## Always Neutral

SilentNinja said:


> TTP only existed for 3-4 years, whereas Afghanistan is a sovereign nation whom your brave armies are occupying!
> 
> Its really sad that even when your technologically superior to Taliban you can't defeat them! how sad



See Boy even a two bit history about TTP would help you? TTP has had equal or more success than Taliban still you delude urself that ISAF is loosing and PA is winning? Shows your utter frustration at our success and now Helmand is lost too. Within a day of the offensive the No2 man of taliban was picked up and the taliban gov of helmand is singing songs all night long.

Your pretense of knowledge has been systematically stripped of layer by layer by every poster here.

Lastly any idea why a brave army like PA and ANA is co-operating with a failed army like the ISAF whole heartedly and not with the scums like Taliban?



Ps : As per Kiyani the PA has lost 2500 men in this difficult TTP ops and compare that to that of the ISAF and hence I can't understand how you can apply such different yardsticks unless you are myopic


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## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> See Boy even a two bit history about TTP would help you? TTP has had lesser success than Taliban still you delude urself that ISAF is loosing and PA is winning? Shows your utter frustration at our success and now Helmand is lost too. Within a day of the offensive the No2 man of taliban was picked up and the taliban gov of helmand is singing songs all night long.



if i were you i wouldn't be celebrating too early, i wouldn't be surprised if this war is dragged on for much longer and you end up losing like the soviets!



Always Neutral said:


> Your pretense of knowledge has been systematically stripped of layer by layer by every poster here.



it has?



Always Neutral said:


> *Lastly any idea why a brave army like is co-operating with a failed army like ISAF whole heartedly and not with the scums like Taliban?*



Wait! hold your horses, we haven't been into North Waziristan yet

You know, in my opinion, PA is much more braver than NATO and America combined!

We fought more harder and tougher battles, we gave more sacrifices despite not having the weapons you have! We fought on even when you didn't help us, and we still fight on without your help! We have more b@lls than you do!

We fought the soviets, and we continue to fight, while your leadership sits back at home in comfy chairs telling us to do more! We're not fighting your war, we're not fighting your enemy, we're fighting TTP, a proxy created by india under the American umbrella in Afghanistan!


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## Desert Fox

Always Neutral said:


> Ps : *As per Kiyani the PA has lost 2500 men in this difficult TTP ops and compare that to that of the ISAF and hence I can't understand how you can apply such different yardsticks unless you are myopic*



That's because we don't need tanks to protect us, we are willing to protect our nation, even if it means we must lay our lives down!

On the other hand, you "tough" guys rofl siting in your high tech weapons can't win a war!

Machines can't fight wars, only men can, men who are willing to sacrifice themselves, not a bunch of nerds controlling predator and reaper drones from thousands of miles away!


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## Vassnti

SilentNinja said:


> That's because we don't need tanks to protect us, we are willing to protect our nation, even if it means we must lay our lives down!
> 
> On the other hand, you "tough" guys rofl siting in your high tech weapons can't win a war!
> 
> Machines can't fight wars, only men can, men who are willing to sacrifice themselves, not a bunch of nerds controlling predator and reaper drones from thousands of miles away!



Yup plenty tough i will admit you couldnt get me to wear a dress.



> To evade the allied cordon around the town, some insurgents were donning the head-to-toe burkhas worn by Afghan women, the reports said.



Their leaders are either being captured or killed most of their fighters are running away hate to burst you bubble but not only can the taliban be defeted, they are being defeated. 

its not the side winning that puts on a dress and runs away.


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## Gazzi

This ideology of winning Helmand within a few days or nights will prove to be nothing but a false sense of joy......lessons from the past have shown that the Pashtun tribes will never fully co-operate with the occupying force.......surely history have shown that plenty of times in the past. This sounds more like the brief moment of joy the Soviets felt before their decline. 

I just hope British troops are pulled out of this illegal war for which proof has still not been presented to the British public of OBL guilt in 9/11 as promised by Blair before going to war.

The Taliban will just return and continue their geurilla warfare....that is how it is fought with hit and runs. Once they have laid the ground for a second phase t geurilla warfare that is when casualties will mount. Hopefully ISAF will be out by then.

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## gambit

SilentNinja said:


> naahhh, you should keep track of yours


I keep track of my arguments just fine. In your case, you failed. 



SilentNinja said:


> Even your own politicians admit that they made a mistake by leaving Afghanistan after Soviet withdrawal!


Fine...I have no problems with that. But you are still avoiding my question -- After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, who is the *BETTER* choice for Afghanistan, the infidel West or the more culturally and religiously related muslims? Your own arguments, the ones you forgot, showed that many individual muslims disagreed with you. One of those many muslims are Osama bin Laden. He knows about US involvement in Afghanistan, but even so, he does not feel we infidels have any place in the ME at all, let alone Afghanistan.

The US abandonment of Afghanistan is nothing more than a convenient excuse for muslims like *YOU* to refuse to own up to your governments' direct involvement and indirect complicity with the West in Afghanistan. If we remained in Afghanistan, we would attempt to reshape the country to our image. Look at how we are vilified in Iraq and Afghanistan today. If our abandonment of Afghanistan is a mistake, the greater one belongs to the muslims and their government.



SilentNinja said:


> elaborate please?


What is there to 'elaborate'? This is more tap-dancing on your part. You said that the muslims governments are under US control. That is funny because it is often believe that the US government is under Israeli control. So how is it that there still exist the Israelis-Palestinians conflict. No wonder the world laughs at your loony conspiracy mentality.



SilentNinja said:


> I was talking about chemical weapons, stop putting words in my mouth!


And I have shown you that charge to be dubious at best. Let me guess...You have a problem with sources?


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## Desert Fox

Vassnti said:


> its not the side winning that puts on a dress and runs away.



Its also not the side that hides in tanks and apaches! like i said, practice what you preach


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## Gazzi

gambit said:


> I keep track of my arguments just fine. In your case, you failed.
> 
> 
> Fine...I have no problems with that. But you are still avoiding my question -- After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, who is the *BETTER* choice for Afghanistan, the infidel West or the more culturally and religiously related muslims? Your own arguments, the ones you forgot, showed that many individual muslims disagreed with you. One of those many muslims are Osama bin Laden. He knows about US involvement in Afghanistan, but even so, he does not feel we infidels have any place in the ME at all, let alone Afghanistan.



Who is best choice for Afghanistan....a little for that excuse isn't it....if that was the case then you should not have got involved in the first place and left the Soviets to occupy Afghanistan....at least 1.5 million Afghans would not have lost their lives....but that doesn;t mean anything now does it as the US or you think that after training, arming and financing the groups in Afghanistan, your job is done...Soviets are out and no further need to help the country which the US is physically responsible for shaping the way it was......without US involvement this country would not have gone down the path that it did as the Sovoets would still have been on control today.



gambit said:


> The US abandonment of Afghanistan is nothing more than a convenient excuse for muslims like *YOU* to refuse to own up to your governments' direct involvement and indirect complicity with the West in Afghanistan. If we remained in Afghanistan, we would attempt to reshape the country to our image. Look at how we are vilified in Iraq and Afghanistan today. If our abandonment of Afghanistan is a mistake, the greater one belongs to the muslims and their government.



convenient excuse.....yes, please tell the millions died what your excuse really is then........3000 die inthe World Trade Centre and its all upheavels but 1.5 million dead, F it, who cares hey.....If that was your attitude then you should have stayed right out in the first place.

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## Desert Fox

gambit said:


> I keep track of my arguments just fine. In your case, you failed.



no, i keep track of my arguments, thank you very much 




gambit said:


> Fine...I have no problems with that. But you are still avoiding my question -- After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, who is the *BETTER* choice for Afghanistan, the infidel West or the more culturally and religiously related muslims?



Firstly, during the Afghan Jihad Muslims all over the world had a good view of America because you helped us fight Soviets, but yeah, you do have a point here, Muslims should have helped Afghanistan, but they didn't so i'll admit Muslim countries didn't play their part!




gambit said:


> Your own arguments, the ones you forgot, showed that many individual muslims disagreed with you. One of those many muslims are *Osama bin Laden*. He knows about US involvement in Afghanistan, but even so, he does not feel we infidels have any place in the ME at all, let alone Afghanistan.



i don't care about what Osama or Al-Qaeda have to say, i don't relate myself to people who target 3,000 innocent people, and then use religion to justify it (that's if they really did it).



gambit said:


> The US abandonment of Afghanistan is nothing more than a convenient excuse for muslims like *YOU* to refuse to own up to your governments' direct involvement and indirect complicity with the West in Afghanistan. If we remained in Afghanistan, we would attempt to reshape the country to our image. Look at how we are vilified in *Iraq* and Afghanistan today. If our abandonment of Afghanistan is a mistake, the greater one belongs to the muslims and their government.



no one asked you people to invade Iraq, you did it on your own will!

Muslims, like i said, don't get me started on them! Zardari and co are Muslims and they have really messed up Pakistan, so who said Muslims are perfect?




gambit said:


> What is there to 'elaborate'? This is more tap-dancing on your part. You said that the muslims governments are under US control.



they are, we all know that, you have to be a loony toon in order not to believe that! They all are your servants! They'll do anything America asks them to! I still remember how Saudi King gave Condoleesa Rice (spelling?) a full gold and diamond set, and this is the same condoleesa rise who along with the rest of republican party is responsible for the death of 1 million+ innocent Iraqis! And before you blame Al-Qaeda, don't forget Al-Qaeda only came into Iraq after your invaded it (that's if Al-Qaeda exists)!





gambit said:


> *That is funny because it is often believe that the US government is under Israeli control*. So how is it that there still exist the Israelis-Palestinians conflict. No wonder the world laughs at your loony conspiracy mentality.



its true, it is, because whenever israel feels threatened, America came with a huge yardstick ready to beat the cr@p out of any country that israel feels threatened by!

BTW, America didn't condemn israeli bombardment on Gaza strip, but every other country did!




gambit said:


> And I have shown you that charge to be dubious at best. Let me guess...You have a problem with sources?



What sources? do you have any trustworthy sources other than your biased, one sided media?


----------



## Desert Fox

Vassnti said:


> *
> Their leaders are either being captured or killed *



So tell me, how many of their leaders have you killed and captured so far?

You kill/capture one commander, another one will pop out from somewhere!

Remember Mullah Dadullah? The most feared Taliban commander of his time, 2nd to Mullah Omar? he was supposedly killed by NATO, but another Taliban commander replaced him and took up his reputation!



Vassnti said:


> most of their fighters are running away[/B] .



Yep, and they'll live to fight another day, smart move on their part!


----------



## gambit

SilentNinja said:


> no, i keep track of my arguments, thank you very much


Suuuurre...You do.



SilentNinja said:


> Firstly, during the Afghan Jihad Muslims all over the world had a good view of America because you helped us fight Soviets, but yeah, you do have a point here, Muslims should have helped Afghanistan, but they didn't so *i'll admit Muslim countries didn't play their part!*


Very good...!!! So from this admission, we can conclude:

1- That there was a collaborative effort between the muslims and the infidel West out of perceived necessity and mutual benefit, namely the removal of Soviet occupation in Afghanistan but before said removal, Soviet life in Afghanistan should be made as difficult as possible.

2- The fighting was done by muslims, therefore this established the foundation for eventual responsibilities of rebuilding and stewardship of Afghanistan in the event the Soviet would withdraw, which they did.

3- Remember...We invaded Iraq, removed Saddam Hussein as leader of the country and either deconstructed or reformated much of Iraq's governmental institutions in said invasion, therefore it became US responsibilities to rebuild those same governmental institutions to maintain Iraq as a viable political entity. Nothing difficult to understand...If the police apprehend a criminal, not only did the police removed some harm to society, but it also became the police's responsibility to shelter and feed the criminal until other events. Same principle for the muslims fighting in Afghanistan back then. Once the Soviets left Afghanistan, regardless of how the US should or did not behaved in Afghanistan, the bulk of responsibilities, and therefore blame, should be on the muslims', not US. Like it or not, every single muslim country in the ME was a buffer for other muslim countries against the Soviets. Why else was Afghanistan so important for the muslims there?



SilentNinja said:


> i don't care about what Osama or Al-Qaeda have to say, *i don't relate myself to people who target 3,000 innocent people, and then use religion to justify* it (that's if they really did it).


Never said you did or should have. I said that unlike your tap-dancing so far, many individual muslims, and Osama bin Laden is one of them, disagreed with you that the US should be to blamed for the mess in Afghanistan by virtue of their individual efforts to help Afghanistan. Many of them no doubt disagreed with Osama bin Laden.



SilentNinja said:


> no one asked you people to invade Iraq, you did it on your own will!
> 
> Muslims, like i said, don't get me started on them! Zardari and co are Muslims and they have really messed up Pakistan, so who said Muslims are perfect?
> 
> they are, we all know that, you have to be a loony toon in order not to believe that! They all are your servants! They'll do anything America asks them to! I still remember how Saudi King gave Condoleesa Rice (spelling?) a full gold and diamond set, and this is the same condoleesa rise who along with the rest of republican party is responsible for the death of 1 million+ innocent Iraqis! And before you blame Al-Qaeda, don't forget Al-Qaeda only came into Iraq after your invaded it (that's if Al-Qaeda exists)!
> 
> its true, it is, because whenever israel feels threatened, America came with a huge yardstick ready to beat the cr@p out of any country that israel feels threatened by!
> 
> BTW, America didn't condemn israeli bombardment on Gaza strip, but every other country did!


Looky here...Nothing you said satisfied the question as to why: If the muslim governments in the ME is under US control and that since the US is under Israeli control, why do we still have the Israelis-Palestinians conflict? Why not just ordered Libya, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt to cut Iran off the region, go in and crack down on the Palestinians so the Israelis can have some peace? Can you explain that instead of tap-dancing around *YOUR* charge? Fred Astaire you ain't.



SilentNinja said:


> What sources? do you have any trustworthy sources other than your biased, one sided media?


Sure is better than your none. Why not show the readership a non-US source that said the US, not Egypt, sold *REFINED* and *PACKAGED* biological and chemical weaponry to Iraq? Explain to the readership, in a logical manner and devoid of empty rhetorics, why was it *ILLOGICAL* to purchase those *REFINED* and *PACKAGED* biological and chemical weaponry from Egypt, and instead purchase raw materials which would take months or even years to educate and produce these weapons.


----------



## Thomas

Gazzi said:


> lessons from the past have shown that the Pashtun tribes will never fully co-operate with the occupying force



Afghan Tribe, Vowing to Fight Taliban, to Get U.S. Aid in Return - NYTimes.com

*"The leaders of one of the largest Pashtun tribes in a Taliban stronghold said Wednesday that they had agreed to support the American-backed government, battle insurgents and burn down the home of any Afghan who harbored Taliban guerrillas."
*

It appears these Pashtun people consider the Taliban to be more of a threat then the ISAF. 



Gazzi said:


> I just hope British troops are pulled out of this illegal war for which *proof has still not been presented to the British public of OBL guilt in 9/11* as promised by Blair before going to war.



In Oct 2004 Al-Jazeera Aired a tape with Osama Bin laden in which he admits he orchestrated 9/11. 







Are you a Policeman Gazzi? asking becuase of your avatar.


**the posted video above is not the 2004 broadcast. It is a prior personal video captured in Afghanistan. I posted the 2004 video in a following post.


----------



## waraich66

Thomas said:


> Afghan Tribe, Vowing to Fight Taliban, to Get U.S. Aid in Return - NYTimes.com
> 
> *"The leaders of one of the largest Pashtun tribes in a Taliban stronghold said Wednesday that they had agreed to support the American-backed government, battle insurgents and burn down the home of any Afghan who harbored Taliban guerrillas."
> *
> 
> It appears these Pashtun people consider the Taliban to be more of a threat then the ISAF.
> 
> 
> 
> In Oct 2004 Al-Jazeera Aired a tape with Osama Bin laden in which he admits he orchestrated 9/11.
> 
> YouTube - Osama Bin Laden Admits Planning 9/11 in Meeting with Egyptian Terrorist, taped by Al Qaeda @ 5:30
> 
> 
> Are you a Policeman Gazzi? asking becuase of your avatar.



person shown in vedio is not OBL, DARK TAN, SHORT NOSE AND LONGER BEARD? FAKE MOVIE OF CIA

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## DaRk WaVe

SilentNinja said:


> lol, look who's talking! Excuse me, but i wasn't the one who's calling Taliban women beaters, you don't even know the people and you judge them! So please practice what you preach



now youa re going to compare my user name with Taliban what the hell was i to make out of these lines of yours 



> but your love for the Emo cult (they cut themselves when their depressed) show's that you admire western culture more than Islam!



you went down to personal attacks not me & now you are down to comparison, ranting at its best  



> I i didn't have a life i wouldn't exist! doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that



you are kind of retard who is unable to grasp basic points ohh my God who am i talking to 




> Ranting according to you, but its useful info for me! I can provide you links to soooo many atrocities done at the hands of NATO, America, and british, just let me know when your ready



ranting again, when did i said that ISAF, JDAMS & Cruise Missiles have 'Taliban recognition Sensors', but does this means we stop talking about the Atrocities done by Taliban



> Whoa, you need to take a chill pill! I never said i support Suicide bombings, neither did i say i justify the killings of innocent Afghans!
> 
> I want peace in Afghanistan just as much as anyone who is tired of this war! But seriously do you think peace can be brought through war? Do you think Taliban will be defeated militarily?
> 
> If so, then your out of your mind because it will only cause more damage and collateral damage in both Afghanistan and Pakistan!
> 
> Reconciliation is more like it! Negotiating with Taliban will bring peace, not war! If you don't believe then go ahead, because history has proven it that war has always lead to the defeat of the occupier!



Taliban will bring peace, Damn right ehh!!!
so on that basis the Taliban Rule in Pakistan was absolutely justified, I don't need to tell you what kind of 'Rule' they have but no you will again come & say me its all western propaganda, Sorry My bad




> Again, stop putting words in my mouth! I never was comparing "Evil with Evil" (what's the difference?), my point was that western media doesn't highlight all the violence and human rights violations going on across the globe, but for some reason they are obsessed with Muslims countries!



They will because we provie them with all the reasons in the world to do more & more propaganda against us, we are such stupids that they insult our Prophet (PBUH) instaed of protesting peacefully we in Pakistan destroyed property wroth 2 Billion Rupees in one day in the name of Namos-e-Risalat, I hope you have not forgotten that, what a super super way to protest huh!!
We claim ourselves to be followers of Religion of peace & we can't even follow this code even on our soil, Don't you think they will malign us 



> Yeah, gun isn't the way out, but when your land is illegally occupied, and the U.N doesn't do cr@p to help you, then yeah you have to resist with the gun!



If we were strong in education, health & if common man was satisfied with the so called greater Taliban Gov & if they would have got something in their Skulls this massacre was not there, I am not putting all Blame on Taliban US & NATO all of them has got its share in the mess we are in






> Wow, OMG, i'm astonished about your lack of knowledge about Taliban!
> 
> I hope this isn't too much to read:
> 
> *"And you have criticized us for violating women's rights; now, who knows what happened before us. Only some symbolic schools, or symbolic posts were given to some women in the ministry, and that was called the restoration of women's rights. I can see some Afghans living here, and they will agree with me, that in the rural areas of Afghanistan, women were used as animals. They were SOLD actually. The first thing we have done is to give the self-determination to women, and it happened not in the history of Afghanistan. Throughout the history of Afghanistan, during all the so-called civilized kings or whatever, they didn't give this right to women, so women were sold. ! They didn't have the right to select their husbands, or to reject their husbands. First thing we have done is to let them choose their future*
> 
> Truth about Taliban & Buddha statues
> 
> You might also want to check this out, an actual interview of Taliban envoy before the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, its the story from the Talibans POV: http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/43309-interview-taliban.html



BS, Mullah Mouth Piece giving his good deeds from his own mouth give me a neutral source, If they were so good to the people of Afgh we would not have seen so many Afghan people complaining 




> I think a person should understand Islam in order to convert to it! For example, when a person converting to Islam recites the Kalima Sherrif he first has to understand its meaning, same goes for when a person converts he must understand Islam!
> Well, yeah it is, if you don't believe me then search it up for yourself!
> 
> On the day of judgment you will be responsible for that kid going astray from the path of Islam!



Thats the problem, me & you think our religion is the best & other think their religion is the best, Now if some Muslims go out preaching Islam & are killed what will be your reaction? 
Those Koreans feed Afghans with what ever Intentions is another issue but you are indirectly saying that Killing them is justified because they were preaching their religion



> At least they didn't torture the women!



didnt i told you there is nothing like 'My evil is smaller than yours' you are accepting that they did atrocities against women, Hmm Good, remember this ok



> We, what we? You mean you? Appeasement isn't going to solve anything!
> 
> Tell me, what wrong did those 1 million+ innocent iraqi children do to America to deserve dying from being sanctioned? 1 million+ iraqi infants dies of malnutrition, but what was their fault?
> 
> like i said, we didn't do **** to these occupiers, they invaded our lands, and you want us to be nice? lol, got to be joking right?



I am not talking about Iraq here, its a different Issue you can have a different Thread on that

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## Condor

Vassnti said:


> Yup plenty tough i will admit you couldnt get me to wear a dress



We love it when you say that.......Vassanti.


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## Condor

Fundamentalist said:


> person shown in vedio is not OBL, DARK TAN, SHORT NOSE AND LONGER BEARD? FAKE MOVIE OF CIA


This has been dealt with in depth by Dr Sangeen Shah in his encounter with S-2 on his introductory thread.
Its a complete waste of time going thru it all over again.


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## Condor

To Gambit: The countries you mention in the ME are not Muslim countries. You are not focused upon a healthy debate

You're intent upon mischief making.


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## Ahmad

*No, he's jealous that his country is being occupied, torn up, destroyed, and its being used by foreign and regional powers for their own gains!*

You are right, but that is not jealouy, it is anger.

*While Pakistan, despite it hardships has come out stronger than before! Every challenge we face makes us stronger!*

I do really hope that pakistan gain its stability back, there is no ill wish for pakistani people and their country. But at the moment i highly doubt if you have come out of your problems, let alone being stronger.


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## Ahmad

self delete


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> Well, i would choose PA and PAF because they are not occupying another country





Why should americans be different from pakistan? To afghans they are both the same, they are both foreigners and they are both fighting their proxy wars in afghanistan but by different methods, americans are sending their troops directly but pakistan is creating their monstors like the taliban to govern people on gun point. but at least at the moment we have got a parliament unlike the taliban time and a gov which has a milion times legitimacy compare to the taliban despite all the problems in general election process.


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> Really? But didn't PA dismantle TTP networks in SWAT valley and cleared them off from there? Didn't PA capture South Waziristan from TTP?



who cares how many of the leaders you captured or killed, despite the fact that 2 of the most powerful leadership of the TTP was killed by the US drones. Mullah baradar is also captured but that does not mean everything is fine in Afghanistan. Dont you see all the problems in Pakistan? Nowhere is safe, people have lost confidence in everything and they are too scared to go out. schools, mosques, gov installations including army and isi headquarters are not safe. they are well capable of disruption and killing as much as they buddies are in afghanistan.


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> So tell me, how many of their leaders have you killed and captured so far?
> 
> You kill/capture one commander, another one will pop out from somewhere!



Dont you think the same thing is correct with your Taliban? you have captured some of their leaders and americans have killed their top leaders but they are still well capable of operating in all pakistan and can generate one leader after another.


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## doberman

yes it is true,u never can fully defeat then,u can only supress them to an extent,every time u get relived they stand up again,this is never going to end


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## Icarus

I'm so tired of hearing that TTP is bad whereas TTA is good.............There can never be a moderate devil, good devil and yeah who can forget, the bad devil !!!!!!!! There is only the devil(Who is Bad, for those who didn't know).
There are two sides, you are either with the left or the right, there is no intermediate option............For God's sake, Condor,Fundamentalist and Silentninja................MAKE UP YOUR MIND !!!!!! Where do you stand ?

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## Condor

^^^^^

You speak like George Bush himself.
'Either you are with us or against us'

My mind is made up like the hundreds of millions of Americans and the Europeans who oppose this... WAR. 
I'm hesitant and ashamed to call it a War.

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## Icarus

Condor said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> *You speak like George Bush himself*.
> *'Either you are with us or against us'*
> 
> My mind is made up like the hundreds of millions of Americans and the Europeans who oppose this... WAR.
> I'm hesitant and ashamed to call it a War.



I never said that !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Icarus

Condor said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> You speak like George Bush himself.
> 'Either you are with us or against us'
> 
> My mind is made up like the *hundreds of millions* of Americans and the Europeans who oppose this... WAR.
> I'm hesitant and ashamed to call it a War.



HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!! please.......................I bet you won't find HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people who oppose this war in the whole world, Of which America and Europe are a small part of.
Even the Afghans themselves DESPISE the Taliban and are happy that ISAF intervened, so why do you support them.........when they were rejected by their own people ????????????????????


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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!! please.......................I bet you won't find HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people who oppose this war in the whole world, Of which America and Europe are a small part of.
> Even the Afghans themselves DESPISE the Taliban and are happy that ISAF intervened, so why do you support them.........when they were rejected by their own people ????????????????????



If they are rejected by people then ISAF should have establish a stable government like Iraq long back

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> If they are rejected by people then ISAF should have establish a stable government like Iraq long back



AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.....................What do you think Karazai is running, a freak show ??????????????


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> If they are rejected by people then ISAF should have establish a stable government like Iraq long back



Let me tell you the difference: Government of Afghanistan(and the UN plus other countries) are the constructive force and the Taliban are destructive forces. do you know how easy it is to destroy and how difficult it is to build something? If you drop a glass, it will only take less than 10 seconds to smash into peices, you didnt lose energy, used your hands and job done - the glas is broke. Now if you want to make that glass, what do you think how much time, energy, planning, skills, resources and alot of other things are required? You need a factory for it, people to work, money, material etc. Taliban can disrupt peace and stability easily with their few thousands guys, no question about it, what else do they lose? Just nothing. They carry out a suicide bombing or attack somewhere and then run away. Being able to disrupt peace and kill people is someting and being popular is something esle.

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## Icarus

Unity said:


> Let me tell you the difference: Government of Afghanistan(and the UN plus other countries) are the constructive force and the Taliban are destructive forces. do you know how easy it is to destroy and how difficult it is to build something? *If you drop a glass, it will only take less than 10 seconds to smash into peices, you didnt lose energy, used your hands and job done - the glas is broke. Now if you want to make that glass, what do you think how much time, energy, planning, skills, resources and alot of other things are required? You need a factory for it, people to work, money, material etc.* Taliban can disrupt peace and stability easily with their few thousands guys, no question about it, what else do they lose? Just nothing. They carry out a suicide bombing or attack somewhere and then run away. Being able to disrupt peace and kill people is someting and being popular is something esle.



Well said !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Parashuram1

SilentNinja said:


> No, he's jealous that his country is being occupied, torn up, destroyed, and its being used by foreign and regional powers for their own gains!
> 
> While Pakistan, despite it hardships has come out stronger than before! Every challenge we face makes us stronger!
> 
> And with god blessing we continue to stand no matter how hard our enemies try to bring us down!


Dear friend, this is your problem. Despite all the hardships that you face, you refuse to acknowledge that these are there from within your country in today's time. Your soldiers are fighting bravely against terrorists who are of your own race, profess your faith, speak one of your languages and are nationals of your country and yet you find solace in blaming half the world for the mess your country is in.

On one side you claim that Islamic brotherhood is united and strong and will stand against every obstacle united and on the other hand you criticize them. Don't you think this criticism is applicable even against these TTP people who are Muslims by faith and yet don't hesitate to gun down a fellow Pakistani? 

While on this forum, I have noticed people saying that Iranians, Indians, Israelis, Americans and what not nationalities are involved in sponsoring this terrorism in your country. Don't you then feel that your earlier criticism hold no value that would make your fellow Muslims kill your people for some foreign ideology and gains? 

Your country is strong and you have good soldiers and there is no denying that fact. Despite being decades behind the West in terms of technology and development, your armed forces are professional and compensate by equivalent levels of ferocity. That is good because you need fierce soldiers at a time like this when terrorists, hooligans and the lawless run amuck freely in your country.

However, by putting blame on every neighbour around you and/or on some ally countries just because you have certain disagreements with them, doesn't really solve your problems. There are many intellectuals in Pakistan I have observed who have smartly and maturely recognized that the current situation in your country is in a way due to their own mistakes.

Unfortunately, such pragmatic and far-sighted people don't seem to be in position of power in your country for they would be able to not only solve your problems but also earn the respect of the entire world community including your strategic rival(s).

I would sincerely ask you to re-consider your mindset and look at the broader picture in not just your country but all around South and Western Asia, because your current mindset is not allowing you to even accept an ethnic Afghan's statements who is a national of Afghanistan and probably has seen more action than many of us who only analyse all those actions and predict its possibilities.

I hope you take my words in a positive way and realize that the world isn't Pakistan's enemy. We all see you as a part of Humanity and therefore want to help you even out of your own false fears and apprehensions.

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## Thomas

Fundamentalist said:


> person shown in vedio is not OBL, DARK TAN, SHORT NOSE AND LONGER BEARD? FAKE MOVIE OF CIA



how about this then:

[video=metacafe;393559/osama_bin_laden_broadcast_on_al_jazeera_on_october]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/393559/osama_bin_laden_broadcast_on_al_jazeera_on_october _29_2004/[/video]

CNN.com - Bin Laden: 'Your security is in your own hands' - Oct 29, 2004


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## Parashuram1

Kakgeta said:


> I'm so tired of hearing that TTP is bad whereas TTA is good.............There can never be a moderate devil, good devil and yeah who can forget, the bad devil !!!!!!!! There is only the devil(Who is Bad, for those who didn't know).
> There are two sides, you are either with the left or the right, there is no intermediate option............For God's sake, Condor,Fundamentalist and Silentninja................MAKE UP YOUR MIND !!!!!! Where do you stand ?


Very well and reasonably said, Kakgeta. I see you are one of those Pakistanis who should be running your country's government at the moment. As a Swiss, I feel that it is very unfortunate that most of your fellow countrymen/women here are swept away my misleading conspiracy theories concocted by fundamentalist hardliner so-called fanatics who only aim to dupe the crowds with bold but shallow words. They rise to fame within days of their chest-thumping statements without realizing the dangerous direction they are leading their society into. 

For example, in many threads on this forum, most member think that wars or even nuclear conflicts are just a morning walk in a wintery park and therefore kill the entire logic of analyzing a situation, outrightly rejecting what is practical and and what is not possible based on self-praising ideas like religious unity worldwide, strategic alliances that would perennially last based on similar cultures, religions, ideologies, or even one's superiority over another country's military capability because one belongs to a particular faith. 

This itself clearly shows that many of them have no military backgrounds or have never even served in any cadet corps lets alone in full-fledged armies to know what is the meaning of even a small skirmish.

It is extremely regrettable that no matter how many foreigners such as myself or Solomon or totach7 or even S-2 explain them to re-think their mindset, they still consider us as "foreign invaders" and refuse to listen to us.

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## Icarus

Parashuram1 said:


> Very well and reasonably said, Kakgeta. I see you are one of those Pakistanis who should be running your country's government at the moment. As a Swiss, I feel that it is very unfortunate that most of your fellow countrymen/women here are swept away my misleading conspiracy theories concocted by fundamentalist hardliner so-called fanatics who only aim to dupe the crowds with bold but shallow words. They rise to fame within days of their chest-thumping statements without realizing the dangerous direction they are leading their society into.
> 
> For example, in many threads on this forum, most member think that wars or even nuclear conflicts are just a morning walk in a wintery park and therefore kill the entire logic of analyzing a situation, outrightly rejecting what is practical and and what is not possible based on self-praising ideas like religious unity worldwide, strategic alliances that would perennially last based on similar cultures, religions, ideologies, or even one's superiority over another country's military capability because one belongs to a particular faith.
> 
> This itself clearly shows that many of them have no military backgrounds or have never even served in any cadet corps lets alone in full-fledged armies to know what is the meaning of even a small skirmish.
> 
> It is extremely regrettable that no matter how many foreigners such as myself or Solomon or totach7 or even S-2 explain them to re-think their mindset, they still consider us as "foreign invaders" and refuse to listen to us.



Thank you for your praise, firstly, the lobby that supports Taliban has seen a rapid decline in numbers here in Pakistan, Even in PDF, you will find that most people who support the Taliban are abroad and therefore unaware of the situation at ground zero.
Secondly, as for the "Foreign Invader" attitude, well that is a consequence of the Arms Embargoes and Economic Sanctions slammed on Pakistan by the US and most European countries back in the 1990s, since time heals all wounds, i hope it will heal this one soon too.

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## Arik

SilentNinja said:


> That's because we don't need tanks to protect us, we are willing to protect our nation, even if it means we must lay our lives down!
> 
> On the other hand, you "tough" guys rofl siting in your high tech weapons can't win a war!
> 
> Machines can't fight wars, only men can, men who are willing to sacrifice themselves, not a bunch of nerds controlling predator and reaper drones from thousands of miles away!



The drones blasted Baitullah Mehsud and Hakimullah Mehsud into pieces.
*War requires an equal contribution of both men and machin**es.*


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## Desert Fox

Arik said:


> *The drones blasted Baitullah Mehsud and Hakimullah Mehsud into pieces*.
> *War requires an equal contribution of both men and machin**es.*



Yeah, they found their targets after killing more than a thousand innocent Pakistanis!



like i said, Machines can't fight wars, only men can!


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> Yeah, they found their targets after killing more than a thousand innocent Pakistanis!
> 
> 
> 
> like i said, Machines can't fight wars, only men can!




PA also killed the civilians, but there is a difference between the casualies caused by TTP and PA.


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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> PA also killed the civilians.



So did ISAF, America


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## Arik

SilentNinja said:


> Yeah, they found their targets after killing more than a thousand innocent Pakistanis!
> 
> 
> 
> like i said, Machines can't fight wars, only men can!



Some reports suggest that the drones take off from a base somewhere within Pakistan.If the drones indeed kill so many civilians then why can't the Pak airforce scramble a couple of F-16s and shoot them down.

The CIA operates the drones because they are given permission by Pakistan .So if u want to blame someone blame your own government.

The Pakistani government is indirectly responsible for the deaths of 1000 civilians!!!!


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> So did ISAF, America




that is my point. what is the differnce then? if you blame ISAF and afghan gov, then you should blame PA as well. By they way, when it comes to afghanistan i dont see why you should complain, you are one of the proxy players.


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## waraich66

Arik said:


> Some reports suggest that the drones take off from a base somewhere within Pakistan.If the drones indeed kill so many civilians then why can't the Pak airforce scramble a couple of F-16s and shoot them down.
> 
> The CIA operates the drones because they are given permission by Pakistan .So if u want to blame someone blame your own government.
> 
> The Pakistani government is indirectly responsible for the deaths of 1000 civilians!!!!



Pakistan can not face US war machine , which can fight three countries like Russia at same time.

But US is facing defeat in Afghanistan like Russian , Muslim Ummah should support Afghan Talaban by all means.

Allah is helping Afghan Talaban


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## Arik

SilentNinja said:


> like i said, Machines can't fight wars, only *men *can!



140000 Pak soilders along with 10000 frontier corps(*assisted b**y** many machines *)fighting against 20000 militias .The battle is still going on and on and on.Imagine the condition of the Pak soilders without the cobras or the F-16s.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Allah is helping Afghan Talaban



Allah never helps the murderes of human being .

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## waraich66

Unity said:


> that is my point. what is the differnce then? if you blame ISAF and afghan gov, then you should blame PA as well. By they way, when it comes to afghanistan i dont see why you should complain, you are one of the proxy players.



Pakistani public is against US aggression and remain , people like you who support US will have to be answerable for bloodshed in Afghanistan.

Be ready , Allah will catch all of you soon.


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> Allah never helps the murderes of human being .



Why ISAF can not defeat Afghan Talaban in eight years?

May be they have less weapons


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Pakistani public is against US aggression and remain , people like you who support US will have to be answerable for bloodshed in Afghanistan.
> 
> Be ready , Allah will catch all of you soon.



I dont care what the Pakistanis think about my country? who are you to dictate us what to do and what not? If Pakistanis are happy with the taliban they need to have with them and dont fight them. Allah will catch and punish the murderes and killers.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Why ISAF can not defeat Afghan Talaban in eight years?
> 
> May be they have less weapons



It is not that easy to fight the enemy which hide itself among the civilians. by the way, your army hasnt defeated the taliban either, thanks to american droes otherwise baitullah and hakeemullah might have well been alive.

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## waraich66

Unity said:


> It is not that easy to fight the enemy which hide itself among the civilians. by the way, your army hasnt defeated the taliban either, thanks to american droes otherwise baitullah and hakeemullah might have well been alive.



Afghan Talaban are civilians not a regular army , you are right army can not defeat whole nation.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Afghan Talaban are civilians not a regular army , you are right army can not defeat whole nation.



Whole nation? where did you get that from? If you mean that the taliban have the capability of disruption, death and destruction, then TTP is as lethal and effective as Afghani taliban. does it mean the whole pakistani nation is behind the TTP?


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> Whole nation? where did you get that from? If you mean that the taliban have the capability of disruption, death and destruction, then TTP is as lethal and effective as Afghani taliban. does it mean the whole pakistani nation is behind the TTP?



TTP are terrorist not mujahdeen , campare apple with apple

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> TTP are terrorist not mujahdeen , campare apple with apple



That is a Pakistanis point of view which sees everything through their proxy lenses under the cover of religion and brotherhood, but Afghan point of view is a world apart different.


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## r4rehan

Unity said:


> Whole nation? where did you get that from? If you mean that the taliban have the capability of disruption, death and destruction, then TTP is as lethal and effective as Afghani taliban. does it mean the whole pakistani nation is behind the TTP?



TTP is a Creation of India, Isreal and our frnd USA ,,, to creat a Civil war in Pakistan do u not know this fact ? even every pakistani knows that.. 

Massage for our Dear Enemy : 
we are ready for every thing we are ready for die..  ...
my dear ENEMY r u ready for this ?? 
be ready for every thing coz it is a begning for GAZW-E-HIND (Whole South Asia) 

and just wait for remove a currpt Leadership of Pakistan which is not represent our nation ..........  

I LOVE U MY PAKISTAN

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## waraich66

Unity said:


> That is a Pakistanis point of view which sees everything through their proxy lenses under the cover of religion and brotherhood, but Afghan point of view is a world apart different.



You & hazara Afghan which are less then 10% of total Afghan population , your point of view has no value


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## Ahmad

r4rehan said:


> TTP is a Creation of India, Isreal and our frnd USA ,,, to creat a Civil war in Pakistan do u not know this fact ? even every pakistani knows that..
> 
> Massage for our Dear Enemy :
> we are ready for every thing we are ready for die..  ...
> my dear ENEMY r u ready for this ??
> be ready for every thing coz it is a begning for GAZW-E-HIND (Whole South Asia)
> 
> and just wait for remove a currpt Leadership of Pakistan which is not represent our nation ..........
> 
> I LOVE U MY PAKISTAN



TTP the creation of India and afghani taliban the creation of pakistan. TTP destroy pakistan and afghani taliban destroy afghanistan. if you dont allow ttp why should we cheer for afghani taliban.


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## Desert Fox

EmO GiRl said:


> you are kind of *retard* who is unable to grasp basic points ohh my God who am i talking to




Usual ranting, congratulations, you have won the worlds best ranter award

You might want to watch your language

And you say i went down to personal attacks, your getting to emotional already huh "*Emo*Girl"?






EmO GiRl said:


> *ranting again*, when did i said that ISAF, JDAMS & Cruise Missiles have 'Taliban recognition Sensors', but does this means we stop talking about the Atrocities done by Taliban



lol, no no, that only applies to you 





EmO GiRl said:


> Taliban will bring peace, Damn right ehh!!!
> so on that basis the Taliban Rule in Pakistan was absolutely justified, I don't need to tell you what kind of 'Rule' they have but no you will again come & say me its all western propaganda, Sorry My bad



Usual ranting 

"The Advisor said, India is using Afghan soil to destabilize Pakistan and Afghan security agencies are unable to stop Indian intervention due to absence of centralized government mechanism."

Top Stories | Pakistan Observer Newspaper online edition

TTP and Afghan Taliban are different, both have different cause! 

TTP and BLA are being funded through Afghanistan by indian consulates!











EmO GiRl said:


> BS, Mullah Mouth Piece giving his good deeds from his own mouth give me a neutral source, If they were so good to the people of Afgh we would not have seen so many Afghan people complaining



Neutral source? what neutral source, all sources bash Taliban! i would really be surprised if you give me a neutral source





The problem is, even if i bring down the moon to prove you wrong you still wouldn't believe me! thats because of your ignorance

Here is a *NEUTRAL* source:






This proves all those people wrong who say "Taliban are Pakistanis blah blah blah"! Taliban are just as much Afghan as Karzai, the only difference is they don't compromise their countries sovereignty 

Taliban aint losing this war, no matter how many of you hate (more like obsession) them, their here and their staying!






EmO GiRl said:


> Thats the problem, *me & you think our religion is the best* & other think their religion is the best, Now if some Muslims go out preaching Islam & are killed what will be your reaction?
> Those Koreans feed Afghans with what ever Intentions is another issue but you are indirectly saying that Killing them is justified because they were preaching their religion



Keep religion out of this, save this for a different thread





EmO GiRl said:


> didnt i told you there is nothing like 'My evil is smaller than yours' you are accepting that they did atrocities against women, Hmm Good, remember this ok



Again, the usual ranting! Yes there is a such thing as my evil is smaller than yours, especially since your obsessed with Taliban and them beating women (shows that you do have some love for Taliban)! But you fail and ignore what other do.

And i never said they beat women, i said that at least unlike the Americans (also known as the angels who never harm a fly) they didn't torture the women





EmO GiRl said:


> I am not talking about Iraq here, its a different Issue you can have a different Thread on that



but you were talking about how "Muslims shouldn't use guns" and usual ranting, so i decided to tell you why exactly we use guns, and how peace fails!

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> You & hazara Afghan which are less then 10% of total Afghan population , your point of view has no value



Here you go, you came up with such a great great response. Thanks for that. By the way you guys seriousely need to know more about your next door neigbhour.


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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> TTP the creation of India and *afghani taliban the creation of pakistan.* * afghani taliban destroy afghanistan. why should we cheer for afghani taliban.*




But your own well educated countrymen support return of Taliban, you might want to check the video on post #203


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> But your own well educated countrymen support return of Taliban, you might want to check the video on post #203




yes i would when i go home cuz i cant view any videos from my work computer.


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## Arik

r4rehan said:


> TTP is a Creation of India, Isreal and our frnd USA ,,, to creat a Civil war in Pakistan do u not know this fact ? even every pakistani knows that..
> 
> Massage for our Dear Enemy :
> we are ready for every thing we are ready for die..  ...
> my dear ENEMY r u ready for this ??
> be ready for every thing coz it is a begning for GAZW-E-HIND (Whole South Asia)
> 
> and just wait for remove a currpt Leadership of Pakistan which is not represent our nation ..........
> 
> I LOVE U MY PAKISTAN


Why don't u just add MI6 ,KGB,Bundesnachrichtendienst,Centro Nacional de Inteligencia,Sigurnosno-obavjetajna agencija into the list of organisations trying to destabalize Pakistan.


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## r4rehan

Unity said:


> TTP the creation of India and afghani taliban the creation of pakistan. TTP destroy pakistan and afghani taliban destroy afghanistan. if you dont allow ttp why should we cheer for afghani taliban.



they are destroying Afghanistan ?? ooo what a jok my frnd do u know know who has F-12 , F-22 , and other ... which can destroy every innocent family and Country as well.. 

who attacked on Afghanistan  USA or TALIBAN ,,, 
9/11 was not done bye TALIBAN ,,, 
even in TALIBAN's Govt there was not any drug do u not know ,,,  
my frnd if i will come to u and want to kill u what will u do ..
ovisly u'll kill me m i wrong ... so AFGHAN TALIBAN doing SAME coz they are also a Human bean just talk to them coz what they did with U.S.S.R remember every think ,,,,
i m not any offical or a big man in PAKISTAN ,,,
but Just Student of B.COM and doing Little job 

but i can see the fact n hope u have nice place rather then me ... 
but u cant see fact 

 

we are muslim ...
we want to live with peace and dignity ... but just let live us with that,
hope brother  u'll not mind my talks 

and sorry for my ENGLISH  it is poor i know


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## Gazzi

Thomas said:


> Afghan Tribe, Vowing to Fight Taliban, to Get U.S. Aid in Return - NYTimes.com
> 
> *"The leaders of one of the largest Pashtun tribes in a Taliban stronghold said Wednesday that they had agreed to support the American-backed government, battle insurgents and burn down the home of any Afghan who harbored Taliban guerrillas."
> *
> 
> It appears these Pashtun people consider the Taliban to be more of a threat then the ISAF.
> 
> 
> 
> In Oct 2004 Al-Jazeera Aired a tape with Osama Bin laden in which he admits he orchestrated 9/11.
> 
> YouTube - Osama Bin Laden Admits Planning 9/11 in Meeting with Egyptian Terrorist, taped by Al Qaeda @ 5:30
> 
> 
> Are you a Policeman Gazzi? asking becuase of your avatar.
> 
> 
> **the posted video above is not the 2004 broadcast. It is a prior personal video captured in Afghanistan. I posted the 2004 video in a following post.



Thomas, sorry to burst your bubble matey but many Arab media have refuted the translations in that video and many others. It was shown on Sky News where it was challenged by a speaker from Pakistan and Sky News admitted fault and never broadcast it again.

Afghan loyalties will change like the weather......they know the US forces will push in, they will show that they are working with them but never share anything about the Taliban or anyone else knowing full well that a geurilla campaign will eventually get them packing.

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## r4rehan

Arik said:


> Why don't u just add MI6 ,KGB,Bundesnachrichtendienst,Centro Nacional de Inteligencia,Sigurnosno-obavjetajna agencija into the list of organisations trying to destabalize Pakistan.



coz i don't have as much time what u have  ask to any pakistani u'll hear same answer  my brother


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> Here you go, you came up with such a great great response. Thanks for that. By the way you guys seriousely need to know more about your next door neigbhour.



Can you enlighten us ? ISAF (kUFAR) supporter

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## DaRk WaVe

SilentNinja said:


> Usual ranting, congratulations, you have won the worlds best ranter award
> 
> You might want to watch your language
> 
> And you say i went down to personal attacks, your getting to emotional already huh "EmoGirl"?



the person who cannot even get the meaning of 'go get a life' is here to educate us wow, Cool, you can call make assumptions but some one hits back they think, hey i was not that cruel  



> lol, no no, that only applies to you



the person who could not not even get the meaning of 'go get a life' is here to tell me bout ranting, yeah sure after all its your specialty, I know



> Usual ranting
> 
> "The Advisor said, India is using Afghan soil to destabilize Pakistan and Afghan security agencies are unable to stop Indian intervention due to absence of centralized government mechanism."
> 
> Top Stories | Pakistan Observer Newspaper online edition
> 
> TTP and Afghan Taliban are different, both have different cause!
> 
> TTP and BLA are being funded through Afghanistan by indian consulates!



again 'My evil is smaller than yours', Taliban has been doing the massacre in the name of religion & now they are using the same religion to use Afghan people so that come back to power, Indian Connection yeah sure its there with TTP but TTP is not what we are talking about TTP got themselves killed & annihilated by our Lions & they are 'almost' history.
For AT man they are no different we have seen their rule & the development that took place in their reign I don't need to comment on that 



> Neutral source? what neutral source, all sources bash Taliban! i would really be surprised if you give me a neutral source
> 
> The problem is, even if i bring down the moon to prove you wrong you still wouldn't believe me! thats because of your ignorance
> 
> Here is a NEUTRAL source:
> 
> YouTube - Who's voting for the Taliban? - 2009 Afghan Election
> 
> This proves all those people wrong who say "Taliban are Pakistanis :"! Taliban are just as much Afghan as Karzai, the only difference is they don't compromise their countries sovereignty
> 
> Taliban aint losing this war, no matter how many of you hate (more like obsession) them, their here and their staying!



 

Can you believe it that person in the video said i will vote for Taliban but still he said they have zero Medical infrastructure, can aperson be more stupid, what medical facalitites wre setup by taliban in their reign, Just give me one example I will be very pleased to know about it.
as for Karazai, I have no doubt that he is incompetent but throwing back the gov to Taliban is no way out, Americans have done a big blunder by letting Karazai do his corruption, If you people love taliban so much i was thinking why not live under their rule, It will fun you know



> Again, the usual ranting! Yes there is a such thing as my evil is smaller than yours, especially since your obsessed with Taliban and them beating women (shows that you do have some love for Taliban)! But you fail and ignore what other do.
> 
> And i never said they beat women, i said that at least unlike the Americans (also known as the angels who never harm a fly) they didn't torture the women



once again your own assumptions about me
question & then answer in the same post, Americans do nuisance so do Taliban this do not means you all supporting the nuisance done by Taliban just because they are Muslims, they did harmed women you accept that good



> but you were talking about how "Muslims shouldn't use guns" and usual ranting, so i decided to tell you why exactly we use guns, and how peace fails!



yeah right Gun is giving us the desired results, we are now universally 'terrorists', just look at the movement f our own sub continent, Muslims took towards the political process gained educated leaders, the same leaders who were declared infidels by our great mullahs (e.g. Sir Syed Ahmed khan) their enlightment by education produced leaders that eventually lead us to our goal, had Muslims picked up arms & started doing the rampage i don't think we would have got our Pakistan

bye

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## Desert Fox

EmO GiRl said:


> the person who cannot even get the meaning of 'go get a life' is here to educate us wow, Cool, you can call make assumptions but some one hits back they think, hey i was not that cruel



I have a life, do you want the details? let me know when your ready?





EmO GiRl said:


> again 'My evil is smaller than yours', Taliban has been doing the massacre in the name of religion & now they are using the same religion to use Afghan people so that come back to power, Indian Connection yeah sure its there with TTP but TTP is not what we are talking about TTP got themselves killed & annihilated by our Lions & they are 'almost' history.
> *For AT man they are no different we have seen their rule & the development that took place in their reign I don't need to comment on that *



*"I think life under the Taliban was very good," said Maria Farah, a mother of five. "If we did not have a full stomach, we could at least get some food and go to sleep, and if we went out somewhere there were no problems. How about now? If we go out, we don't know if we will arrive home or not. If there is an explosion and the Americans are passing, they will just open fire on everyone. The security problems are too much here."*

We want the Taliban back, say ordinary Afghans - Asia, World - The Independent







EmO GiRl said:


> Can you believe it that person in the video said i will vote for Taliban but still he said they have zero *Medical infrastructure*, can aperson be more stupid, what medical facalitites wre setup by taliban in their reign, Just give me one example I will be very pleased to know about it.



How do you expect a country that has been sanctioned to build infrastructure?

BTW, i hope you know that Taliban was the first gov in history of Afghanistan that provided computers in its universities!



EmO GiRl said:


> as for Karazai, I have no doubt that he is incompetent but throwing back the gov to Taliban is no way out, Americans have done a big blunder by letting Karazai do his corruption, *If you people love taliban so much i was thinking why not live under their rule, It will fun you know*



would love to once they come back into power! You know, a friend of mines once told me that his house in Afghanistan caught fire, his family had to leave home and they had nowhere to go and they desperately needed evacuation, Taliban saved him and his family by bringing in a helicopter and getting them into shelter!





EmO GiRl said:


> once again your own assumptions about me
> question & then answer in the same post, Americans do nuisance so do Taliban this do not means you all supporting the nuisance done by Taliban just because they are Muslims, they did harmed women you accept that good



no no no, don't try to lie now, according to you Taliban are devils and terrorists while America and NATO are angels who were sent down by god to save the poor innocent Afghans who were being ruthlessly slaughtered by Taliban devils for 7 years now!





EmO GiRl said:


> yeah right Gun is giving us the desired results, we are now universally 'terrorists', just look at the movement f our own sub continent, Muslims took towards the political process gained educated leaders, the same leaders who were declared infidels by our great mullahs (e.g. Sir Syed Ahmed khan) their enlightment by education produced leaders that eventually lead us to our goal, had Muslims picked up arms & started doing the rampage i don't think we would have got our Pakistan



If i had control of world media i would also promote propaganda against America and NATO day and night, but sadly that's not the case, world media is controlled by Jews who are using it to promote their cause against Muslims!

*like i said Miss. EmoGirl, i have a lot of things to show you about how American soldiers gang raped and killed a iraqi girl and burned her and her family alive after wards, do you want to see your little angels being naughty?*






Below is a link to a picture of what these ********* did to my Muslims sister in Iraq, and your here talking **** about Taliban:

Rape of Iraqi Women by US Forces as Weapon of War: Photos and Data Emerge | Asian Tribune






But after all Taliban and every other Mujahid and those who are striving for the cause of Allah are devils according to you and people like you, but on the other hand American s are saviours and our brothers who are dying for the truth!

and we're not allowed to pick up a gun and fight back because we don't have the right to self defense and determination, is that right?

These savages dishonor my sisters, and you want us to put our guns down?

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## adrenalin

SilentNinja said:


> I have a life, do you want the details? let me know when your ready?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"I think life under the Taliban was very good," said Maria Farah, a mother of five. "If we did not have a full stomach, we could at least get some food and go to sleep, and if we went out somewhere there were no problems. How about now? If we go out, we don't know if we will arrive home or not. If there is an explosion and the Americans are passing, they will just open fire on everyone. The security problems are too much here."*
> 
> We want the Taliban back, say ordinary Afghans - Asia, World - The Independent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you expect a country that has been sanctioned to build infrastructure?
> 
> BTW, i hope you know that Taliban was the first gov in history of Afghanistan that provided computers in its universities!
> 
> 
> 
> would love to once they come back into power! You know, a friend of mines once told me that his house in Afghanistan caught fire, his family had to leave home and they had nowhere to go and they desperately needed evacuation, Taliban saved him and his family by bringing in a helicopter and getting them into shelter!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no no no, don't try to lie now, according to you Taliban are devils and terrorists while America and NATO are angels who were sent down by god to save the poor innocent Afghans who were being ruthlessly slaughtered by Taliban devils for 7 years now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If i had control of world media i would also promote propaganda against America and NATO day and night, but sadly that's not the case, world media is controlled by Jews who are using it to promote their cause against Muslims!
> 
> *like i said Miss. EmoGirl, i have a lot of things to show you about how American soldiers gang raped and killed a iraqi girl and burned her and her family alive after wards, do you want to see your little angels being naughty?*
> 
> YouTube - Iraq War - The rape and murder of Abeer Qassim Hamza
> 
> Below is a link to a picture of what these ********* did to my Muslims sister in Iraq, and your here talking **** about Taliban:
> 
> Rape of Iraqi Women by US Forces as Weapon of War: Photos and Data Emerge | Asian Tribune
> 
> YouTube - Iraqi women rape by the forces of order
> 
> But after all Taliban and every other Mujahid and those who are striving for the cause of Allah are devils according to you and people like you, but on the other hand American s are saviours and our brothers who are dying for the truth!
> 
> and we're not allowed to pick up a gun and fight back because we don't have the right to self defense and determination, is that right?
> 
> These savages dishonor my sisters, and you want us to put our guns down?
> 
> YouTube- A letter from sister Fatima from Abu Graib Prison in Iraq!



Stop glorifying Terrorists and Terrorism


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## Desert Fox

adrenalin said:


> Stop glorifying Terrorists and Terrorism




How would you like if your mom, or sister was raped and impregnated?

Nobody's glorifying terrorists, its the truth of what Americans did in Iraq and Afghanistan! Ad their still doing it!

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## waraich66

SilentNinja said:


> How would you like if your mom, or sister was raped and impregnated?
> 
> Nobody's glorifying terrorists, its the truth of what Americans did in Iraq and Afghanistan!



For muslim death is better then dishonour

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## Solomon2

^^^^
The Japanese of WWII thought the same. What happened is that they accepted defeat with honor.


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## Desert Fox

look here what the brave American liberators are doing in iraq

according to the video, iraqi women were forced to strip in front of male guards and were raped:






So where were the women's rights groups? where was CNN? where was BBC? Where was RAWA?

I mean their always there when Taliban "beat" women? where did they disappear now? lunch break?

Aren't these the same propaganda channels that show Muslims as terrorists? But how come they didn't show any of the info and videos i posted above?


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> But your own well educated countrymen support return of Taliban, you might want to check the video on post #203



Dear Silent,

I just watched the video and listend to what mr Wahaj said, here i noted a few things:
*
He will vote for the Taliban*
Fine, if he votes for the taliban not a problem, but are the taliban ready to participate in political process? will he vote in battlefield? My gov have always called upon them to come and join the political process, instead of killing listen to each other, but do the taliban do that? Have i ever said in this forum that all the taliban must be killed and dont want them? Havent I everytime said that afghans wont have a problems with the taliban if they lay down their weapons despite the fact that they have committed very very seriouse crimes against afghans.
*
2-He complained about healthcare, education, no medical equipment, no pathalogyst, no radaiation(or whatever) etc.*

May I ask what was the situation of the education and healthcare during the taliban? How many pathalogyst we had that time? they closed down every single female school and boys school was nothing but an open entertaining building for the school kids. we shouldnt forget that they barred every women from working as well as barring them from going to the University.
*
3-He said there is no national leader:*

But how come Mullah Omar is a national leader? he killed people of other areas becuse of different prejudice, he masacared thousands of shias, i dont understand how come he is a national leader, i consider Karzai a milion times more national leader than him(he is a the leader of the killers).
*
4- He said Mullah Omar and Gulbudin are Afghans:*

Nothing new, we all know that. Baitullah and Hakeemullah were also pakistanis, why did you guys kill them with the help of americans?
*
7-He said that the taliban ruled Afghanistan for 7 years:*

So what? Musharaf also ruled pakistan for several years, was his gov legitimate in the eyes of pakistains? secondly the Taliban in AFghanistan ruled alot of part of the country on gun point, how come the taliban gov becomes legitimate and present gov not legitimate? despite the fact taht this gov have elected parliament besides it and it was elected itself despite all the problems in general elections but the taliban ruled on gun point, it simply doesnt add up.
*
8-ARe the taliban terrorist:*

We dont have to listen to americans what they say, cant we see it ourselves how much of a terrorist the talian are? didnt we see the masacar of civilians in the past by them? dont we see it now? is it a rocket science to figure out if they are terrorist or not?
*
9-He(this docotr) will call for national reconciliation if he becomes presedent:*

That is what our gov is doin, but the taliban are not listending. What do you think what this calls for negotiona is, isnt it national reconciliantion?


One more thing i need to add: Look at him how he is talking in favour of the taliban in broaday light and in an interview with a newspaper, i am asking him if he could do the same thing during the taliban rule and praising the taliban's oppositon? Everybody knows he couldnt, he would have had his head chopped off by the taliban.

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## Desert Fox

*"The London newspaper further noted &#8220;graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President Obama&#8217;s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.&#8221;*

Rape of Iraqi Women by US Forces as Weapon of War: Photos and Data Emerge | Asian Tribune

And Obama wants to improve America's image in Muslims world? lol, yeah right, get outa here with that cr@p!

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## waraich66

Solomon2 said:


> ^^^^
> The Japanese of WWII thought the same. What happened is that they accepted defeat with honor.



If you use 100 A bombs, mujahdeen will never accept defeat , Afghanistan is recent example , mujahdeen are ready to fight for more then 100 years .

There is no third option for muslim if attacked by enemy shaheed or Gazi

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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> Dear Silent,
> 
> I just watched the video and listend to what mr Wahaj said, here i noted a few things:
> *
> He will vote for the Taliban*
> Fine, if he votes for the taliban not a problem, but are the taliban ready to participate in political process? will he vote in battlefield? My gov have always called upon them to come and join the political process, instead of killing listen to each other, but do the taliban do that? Have i ever said in this forum that all the taliban must be killed and dont want them? Havent I everytime said that afghans wont have a problems with the taliban if they lay down their weapons despite the fact that they have committed very very seriouse crimes against afghans.
> *
> 2-He complained about healthcare, education, no medical equipment, no pathalogyst, no radaiation(or whatever) etc.*
> 
> May I ask what was the situation of the education and healthcare during the taliban? How many pathalogyst we had that time? they closed down every single female school and boys school was nothing but an open entertaining building for the school kids. we shouldnt forget that they barred every women from working as well as barring them from going to the University.
> *
> 3-He said there is no national leader:*
> 
> But how come Mullah Omar is a national leader? he killed people of other areas becuse of different prejudice, he masacared thousands of shias, i dont understand how come he is a national leader, i consider Karzai a milion times more national leader than him.
> *
> 4- He said Mullah Omar and Gulbudin are Afghans:*
> 
> Nothing new, we all know that. Baitullah and Hakeemullah were also pakistanis, why did you guys kill the with the help of americans?
> *
> 7-He said that the taliban ruled Afghanistan for 7 years:*
> 
> So what? Musharaf also ruled pakistan for several years, was his gov legitimate in the eyes of pakistains? secondly the Taliban in AFghanistan ruled alot of part of the country on gun point, how come that gov becomes legitimate and present one not despite the fact taht this gov have elected parliament besides it and it was elected itself despite all the problems in general elections.
> *
> 8-ARe the taliban terrorist:*
> 
> We dont have to listen to americans what they say, cant we see it ourselves how much of a terrorist the talian are? didnt we see the masacar of civilians in the past by them? dont we see it now? is it a rocket science to figure out if they are terrorist or not?
> *
> 9-He(this docotr) will call for national reconciliation if he becomes presedent:*
> 
> That is what our gov is doin, but the taliban are not listending. What do you think what this calls for negotiona is, isnt it national reconciliantion?
> 
> 
> One more thing i need to add: Look at him how he is talking in favour of the taliban in broaday light and in an interview with a newspaper, i am asking him if he could do the same thing during the taliban rule and praising the taliban's oppositon? Everybody knows he couldnt, he would have had his head chopped off.



either way, he wants Taliban back, now don't feel ashamed and embarrassed just because your own well educated countrymen proved you wrong!

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## Desert Fox

You know, we should open up a separate thread for the atrocities committed by America, israel, NATO, and india!

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Can you enlighten us ? ISAF (kUFAR) supporter



Please, I appreciate if you dont do personal attacks in the future, i havent done anything like this to you and i expect the same thing from you. I only support my country and people and nobody else, even and even if i do such a thing, it shouldnt be your bussines as you are not my countryman.
*
You & hazara Afghan which are less then 10&#37; of total Afghan population , your point of view has no value*

With regards to your above statment, Afghanistan's population is roughly made up of around 40% Pashtoon(largest ethnic group), Tajiks around or little bit below 30%(second largest) and then comes hazars and uzbeks which are around 15 and 10 each. Now, if you claim that the Pashtoons are all supporting the taliban(which is itself a wrong notion) then 60% of Afghanistan is opposing the taliban which is making it majority of the population against the taliban, but even that is wrong because it will be an insult to the poor pashtoons to say they are all supporters of the taliban beause they are not. 

The last thing: dont try to ethnicize the issue of AFghanistan any further, it will be pakistan to lose more than afghanistan, if ethno nationalism goes further in Afghanistan the pashtoons will seek even harder for the durand line.


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## Solomon2

Fundamentalist said:


> If you use 100 A bombs, mujahdeen will never accept defeat , Afghanistan is recent example , mujahdeen are ready to fight for more then 100 years .


What are they fighting for? 

Not for peace - there would be no conflict without the Taliban.

Not for justice - the people of Swat learned that.

Not to liberate their country - the coalition forces aren't colonialists, and everyone expects they will depart once there is peace.

Not for national prosperity - international aid, schools, and peaceful markets will bring that.

Not for Islam - otherwise the Taliban wouldn't be blowing up mosques.

Not for honor - for there is no honor in throwing acid at girls.

So what is left? Fighting for ego and robbery, that's all, right? And for that, you think the Taliban will fight for more than 100 years?


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> either way, he wants Taliban back, now don't feel ashamed and embarrassed just because your own well educated countrymen proved you wrong!



I think you didnt have a reply to my post that is why you are saying all this which does not make any sense. Yes, he is an educated person and i know him(not personally), but is afghanistan a one man country that only and only his ideas should be counted? i am sure there are other people as well who want the taliban, how can i deny that, but how much the taliban are popular is another thing. The taliban have supporters, but they are not popular.

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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> I think you didnt have a reply to my post that is why you are saying all this which does not make any sense. Yes, he is an educated person and i know him(not personally), but is afghanistan a one man country that only and only his ideas should be counted? i am sure there are other people as well who want the taliban, how can i deny that, but how much the taliban are popular is another thing. The taliban have supporters, but they are not popular.



yep, to you it makes no sense! But still, a AFGHAN said he wants TALIBAN BACK!

Get that into your head!

And i don't need to read your silly posts, their full of hatred anyways so there is no point in wasting my time, i'd rather watch a snail race!

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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> yep, to you it makes no sense! But still, a AFGHAN said he wants TALIBAN BACK!
> 
> Get that into your head!
> 
> And i don't need to read your silly posts, their full of hatred anyways so there is no point in wasting my time, i'd rather watch a snail race!



You dont have a proper and logical reponse to my post that is why you are ignoring it. Yes, he is educated and supports the taliban, is afghanisan a one man band? and i noted several points in my previouse post see if you can comment on each of them.


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> TTP are terrorist not mujahdeen , campare apple with apple



They are one and the same, either they are both Mujahideen or both are terrorists, make up your mind.........

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## Icarus

Ok, hasn't this gone on long enough ? We should just accept that if the Afghans are happy with American intervention, we should be too, it's their country and their right to decide, who's rule they want to live under.................

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## Icarus

SilentNinja said:


> yep, to you it makes no sense! But still, *a AFGHAN* said he wants TALIBAN BACK!
> 
> Get that into your head!
> 
> And i don't need to read your silly posts, their full of hatred anyways so there is no point in wasting my time, i'd rather watch a snail race!



What about the other 20 million or so ????????
Don't they have a voice ???????????

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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> You dont have a proper and logical reponse to my post that is why you are ignoring it. Yes, he is educated and supports the taliban, is afghanisan a one man band? and i noted several points in my previouse post see if you can comment on each of them.



no, i proved you wrong, if your own well educated countrymen can say Taliban are Afghans and that he supports them then i have achieved my goal here, and that is that i have proved you wrong!

All along you have been saying that Talibans are not Afghans and they are working for Pakistan and, so i decided why not prove him wrong!

Now that i have proved your silly theory wrong, your using your ignorance to make yourself happy by denying the truth!

But who cares? your gonna have to come out the darkness one day won't you? your going to have to face the reality!

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## Desert Fox

Kakgeta said:


> What about the other 20 million or so ????????
> Don't they have a voice ???????????



like i said to a previous member (emogirl) that even if i bring the moon to this earth to prove you wrong, you still won't believe me because your ignorance and hate doesn't want you to!

so i'd rather watch a snail race then to argue with you

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> They are one and the same, either they are both Mujahideen or both are terrorists, make up your mind.........



Afghan talaban are fighting against invaders (ISAF) ,can you prove them terrorist?

What about Kashmir freedom fighters , what about 1947 freedom fighters? 
What about Palestine freedom fighters ?

Extreme Height of stupidity

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## Desert Fox

Kakgeta said:


> They are one and the same, either they are both Mujahideen or both are terrorists, make up your mind.........



no, their not the same, gosh don't you people do your own research?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/world/asia/23taliban.html

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## Desert Fox

Solomon2 said:


> What are they fighting for?
> 
> Not for peace - there would be no conflict without the Taliban.
> 
> Not for justice - the people of Swat learned that.
> 
> Not to liberate their country - the coalition forces aren't colonialists, and everyone expects they will depart once there is peace.
> 
> Not for national prosperity - international aid, schools, and peaceful markets will bring that.
> 
> Not for Islam - otherwise the Taliban wouldn't be blowing up mosques.
> 
> Not for honor - for there is no honor in throwing acid at girls.
> 
> So what is left? Fighting for ego and robbery, that's all, right? And for that, you think the Taliban will fight for more than 100 years?



oh don't give us that cr@p, your army is full of former inmates and criminals, you expect us to give you flowers after your army rapes our Muslim sisters?

You expect us to love you, HELL NOOOO! expect resistance! Taliban are will fight back, your army rapes and kills our sisters and mothers, you don't expect us to be friendly do you?

How would you like it if we occupy your land, rape your moms and sisters? would you love that? Is that what your culture is?

would you love it if your sister was carrying our babies in her womb?

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## Desert Fox

This *Solomon2* dude says Taliban threw acid on girls faces? ha ha ha?

lol, i hope you know Taliban denied that:
*
BTW, british troops were caught dressed up as Iraqi insurgents planting bombs in Basra Iraq:*

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=992


This explains who's really behind these bombings in Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghanistan! No wonder Taliban deny most of these bombings!

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## Solomon2

Afghan girls risk lives to go to school

Kabul (AsiaNews) - Shamsia Husseini has gone back to the Mirwais School for Girls in Kandahar. Shamsia is the 17-year-old young woman who had acid thrown into her face in November, to punish her because she wanted an education...The Taliban are accused of the violence. In their regime, girls were forbidden to go to school. Now the schools are one of their main targets, and they have burned hundreds of them. Before these attacks, in the streets and in many mosques of Kandahar there were fliers with phrases like: "Don't send your daughters to school."

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## sur

Fundamentalist said:


> The Taliban will never be defeated
> Colonel Imam, the Pakistani agent who trained Mullah Omar and the warlords to fight the Soviets, says the US must negotiate with its enemies...


Rather accurate thing to say would be *"US does NOT want taliban to be defeated"*..... US wants to perpetuate this "catch word"....

Such wars r NOT ment to be won,,, these are profit making moves combined with acheiving other geo-political goals... "Killing many birds with one stone"...

Longer the war goes more profit certain group of ppl make, who happen to be in power too. The day they win, their profits will sharply go down. & the "other" goals ofcourse.

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## Desert Fox

Solomon2 said:


> Afghan girls risk lives to go to school
> 
> Kabul (AsiaNews) - Shamsia Husseini has gone back to the Mirwais School for Girls in Kandahar. Shamsia is the 17-year-old young woman who had acid thrown into her face in November, to punish her because she wanted an education...The Taliban are accused of the violence. In their regime, girls were forbidden to go to school. Now the schools are one of their main targets, and they have burned hundreds of them. Before these attacks, in the streets and in many mosques of Kandahar there were fliers with phrases like: "Don't send your daughters to school."



Taliban denied it, but your biased western media doesn't show that!

I think some undercover American or british soldiers threw the acid on their faces!

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## Solomon2

SilentNinja said:


> oh don't give us that cr@p, your army is full of -


It appears you agree with what I wrote 100%. Our only point of disagreement is the conduct of coalition soldiers. 

I don't think coalition forces can commit any of the crimes you've accused them of without severe punishment from their countrymen. 

The Taliban, as the people of Afghanistan and Swat know, demand their own judges so they can do whatever they want.

What you discuss, and the stories you've linked to, seem to be empty accusations, mostly from Iranian sources. Haven't you learned better than to trust that stuff?

So the Taliban aren't fighting to protect themselves or the people under their thumb from criminal behavior of coalition troops, either.

Which brings us back to robbery and ego as, if not the Taliban's primary motivations, certainly their primary accomplishments, and the future they envision for those subject to their rule.

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## Desert Fox

Solomon2 said:


> The Taliban, as the people of Afghanistan and Swat know, demand their own judges so they can do whatever they want.



Taliban are not sick minded people like your army! They don't rape women during interrogation to make them confess to crimes they haven't even committed!


No, i disagree with everything you said, that's it, its that simple! If your armed forces can allow rape of Muslim women in Iraq Abu Ghraib and not punish your soldiers then i don't need any silly nonsense from you! You will be defeated in Afghanistan, just watch!

Taliban are not even close to being as cruel as your armies are!

you'll be humiliated just as the Soviet Union was humiliated!

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## waraich66

sur said:


> Rather accurate thing to say would be *"US does NOT want taliban to be defeated"*..... US wants to perpetuate this "catch word"....
> 
> Such wars r NOT ment to be won,,, these are profit making moves combined with acheiving other geo-political goals... "Killing many birds with one stone"...
> 
> Longer the war goes more profit certain group of ppl make, who happen to be in power too. The day they win, their profits will sharply go down. & the "other" goals ofcourse.



No doubt,US wanted to drag Pakistan into this never ending war , our army leaders are wise and experienced , defeated Russia in same battle field.

Pentagon is in great trouble , just wanted to safe face value of super power and shame of defeat which is inevitable.

Reason is US cant afford long term Gurrilla war with 200000 soldiers , they are afraid of casualties but Afghan love shadat and confident that if they could defeat one super power they could other also.

But they(US) are afraid of Al Qaeda also , MO is the only person could provide assurance that Al Qaeda will not be given heaven in Afghanistan.

Where Al Qaeda shall go , they may move to Nepal,Kashmir,Chechinia,Somalia,Yeman, Lybia then what will be US strategy?

Al Qaeda will remain problem for world peace untill family of world fine any solution of Palestine.

85&#37; US senators are Israel supported , they will never support peace efforts in Palestine against Israel.

Infact WW3 Zoinism vS Islam is taking a startup.

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## Solomon2

SilentNinja said:


> Taliban denied it, but your biased western media doesn't show that!


They can deny it, but after the propaganda campaign followed by an acid attack, everybody thinks they did it. "Denial" in this context means, "We can throw acid and get away with it, just because we said so and nobody can bring us to justice."



> I think some undercover American or british soldiers threw the acid on their faces!


Do you think Afghans are stupid? Don't you think that after seven years an Afghan child could tell a Western soldier from a Talib, no matter how they are dressed?


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## Desert Fox

Solomon2 said:


> Do you think Afghans are stupid? Don't you think that after seven years an Afghan child could tell a Western soldier from a Talib, no matter how they are dressed?



Lol, don't play your games here, they won't work! Check my previous posts in which there was link to a article that stated how british SAS were dressed up as Iraqi insurgents planting roadside bombs, these same SAS were caught by the Iraqi police after they fired some shots at the police! Later on Iraqi insurgents were blamed for these attacks, but since the event involving SAS, people began to doubt that Iraqi insurgents were planting these bombs that killed mostly civilians!

In Afghanistan there was a incident in which a mans eyes lids were taken out by some "men in masks", Taliban were blamed for this incident! But when Taliban found out they said that they would inquired the local Taliban of that area in which this incident took place, and the local Taliban stated that the same day the guys eyes were taken out they were busy fighting ANA!

Don't play games, especially when your not good at them!

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## Solomon2

SilentNinja said:


> If your armed forces can allow rape of Muslim women in Iraq Abu Ghraib and not punish your soldiers then i don't need any silly nonsense from you!


And if they don't allow rape, etc., what then?



> You will be defeated in Afghanistan, just watch!


Somebody out there must find your faith very touching, I'm sure.



> Taliban are not even close to being as cruel as your armies are!


 On this we agree, but with opposite emphasis:

Gen Ghori, the senior commander for Afghan troops in the area, accused the Taliban of taking civilians hostage in Marjah and putting them in the line of fire.

"Especially in the south of Marjah, the enemy is fighting from compounds where soldiers can very clearly see women or children on the roof or in a second-floor or third-floor window," he is quoted by Associated Press as saying.

"They are trying to get us to fire on them and kill the civilians."

As a result, his forces were having to make the choice either not to return fire, he said, or to advance much more slowly in order to distinguish militants from civilians.

Also on Tuesday, US artillery fired non-lethal smoke rounds to disperse Taliban fighters in Marjah - the first time cannons have been used in the fight to drive the militants from their logistical and opium poppy-smuggling base. Commanders refused a Marine request to fire deadly high-explosive rounds because the unit on the ground could not be sure if civilians were at risk.

Whether it's Pakistan or Afghanistan, the Taliban are the Taliban.


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## Desert Fox

Solomon2 said:


> *And if they don't allow rape, etc., what then?*



you just proved my point!



Solomon2 said:


> Somebody out there must find your faith very touching, I'm sure.



i'm sure that's you!

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## Solomon2

SilentNinja said:


> Check my previous posts in which -


No. As far as I'm concerned, you lost credibility of judging sources when you resorted to quoting empty propaganda from Press TV and didn't apologize for it when this was pointed out to you.

Why should people listen to or follow you any further? What good could come of it?


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## Desert Fox

Solomon2 said:


> Why should people listen to or follow you any further? What good could come of it?



What good can come out of from following you?

you praise rapists and child killers, show's what's going on in your head.

I certainly would be very afraid if i were your neighbor, especially if i had kids!

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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> This *Solomon2* dude says Taliban threw acid on girls faces? ha ha ha?
> 
> lol, i hope you know Taliban denied that:
> *
> BTW, british troops were caught dressed up as Iraqi insurgents planting bombs in Basra Iraq:*
> 
> British Pseudo-Gang Terrorists Exposed in Basra
> 
> 
> This explains who's really behind these bombings in Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghanistan! No wonder Taliban deny most of these bombings!



Taliban denied some of their deadliest attacks in pakistan too(one of them meena bazar), do you agree with the TTP on that claim? The taliban in afghanistan also denied that Mullah Beradar wasnt arrested, but all it came out as false claim.


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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> Taliban denied some of their deadliest attacks in pakistan too(one of them meena bazar), do you agree with the TTP on that claim? The taliban in afghanistan also denied that Mullah Beradar wasnt arrested, but all it came out as false claim.



The bomb blast in Meena Bazar was suspected to have been done by Black Water!


oh, and one more thing, just to let you know, congratulations, your now on my ignore list

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## Jalal1230

salam to all,
i think dat pakistan is a islamic country and taliban too.
i doesn't say dat taliban are right but wat they want is right.
islam should be our first mission dat is the teaching of prophet S.A.W
we have to stop those fight and prepare our self for the future "Dajjal" we should be one to resiste and protect a maximum our families.
May Allah Give us Hidayat And forgive our sins.


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## Ahmad

*
no, i proved you wrong, if your own well educated countrymen can say Taliban are Afghans and that he supports them then i have achieved my goal here, and that is that i have proved you wrong!*

No, you didnt prove me wrong. you are again nervouse and cant give me a logical reply. Is afghanistan a one man country? There are surely supporters of the Talbiban but are they any popular? What can you say about the TTP? they have also got supporters in large numers, does it mean all pakistan want the taliban? you simply dont have reply to that post, accept it and get over it.


*
All along you have been saying that Talibans are not Afghans and they are working for Pakistan and, so i decided why not prove him wrong!*

Show me a single post of mine to suggest i said the Taliban are not Afghans? Yes, they are serving the intersts of Pakistan but they are afghanistan's nationals. Among the taliban there are other foreign extremists as well, like the central asians, pakistanis, chechens , arabs etc.

*
Now that i have proved your silly theory wrong, your using your ignorance to make yourself happy by denying the truth!*

YOu have proved nothing wrong, you simply dont have the answer.


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## Desert Fox

Solomon2 said:


> This thread stands as evidence that I've done no such thing.



this is what you said in your post #246: below:



Solomon2 said:


> And if they don't allow rape, etc., what then?



So your saying that they have to rape ^^^? Your justifying it basically.






Solomon2 said:


> *You'd be my pet SNake, SN. I'd feed you a mouse or frog twice a week or so. I'd show you off to the other neighbors so everyone could see you hiss and know you better.*



i think you really need some attention from a therapist!

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Reason is US cant afford long term Gurrilla war with 200000 soldiers , they are afraid of casualties but Afghan love shadat and confident that if they could defeat one super power they could other also.



oh yes, we were once fooled by this slogan of shahad in the past and you cant decive us anymore, there are surely a bunch of criminals serving the interests of your country, but people of afghansitan have learned their lessons. you want us to die in the name of shahada and want your own country to be free of the taliban.

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## Ahmad

Jalal1230 said:


> salam to all,
> i think dat pakistan is a islamic country and taliban too.
> i doesn't say dat taliban are right but wat they want is right.
> islam should be our first mission dat is the teaching of prophet S.A.W
> we have to stop those fight and prepare our self for the future "Dajjal" we should be one to resiste and protect a maximum our families.
> May Allah Give us Hidayat And forgive our sins.



Yes, you are right Tehreke Taliban Pakisan is good and what they want is right. we should support them all.


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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> The bomb blast in Meena Bazar was suspected to have been done by Black Water!
> 
> 
> oh, and one more thing, just to let you know, congratulations, your now on my ignore list



Yes, ignoring was the only choice you had, because you were left with no answer to my posts.

by the way taliban also denied the attack on that military mosque, remember what they said when they opend fire on the kids and prayers? Enke Nasal Ko Khatam Kardo(sorry for my bad urdo). and yes, they also dendied the killing of Benazir Bhutoo that your governments have strongly accused them of engineering that attack.

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## Desert Fox

Solomon2 said:


> Not at all. I'm asking you that if coalition forces don't allow these crimes what objection do you have to what they are doing. And I maintain that the crimes you value so highly either aren't being committed by the coalition or that justice is meted out when they do.



No, they did really happen, your ignorance just doesn't want you to believe!



Solomon2 said:


> So once again, the Taliban do not fight for justice.



Yes they do, but according to you, rapists and child killers do give justice!

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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> You & hazara Afghan which are less then 10% of total Afghan population , your point of view has no value


Whatever be his ethnicity, he is an Afghan national and has full right to decide what is right for his country. Technically speaking, if you blame the ISAF for imperialism, you as a person(and a country) are equally to blame as you are imposing your own whims upon Afghanistan a sovereign country just because you wish to use their country as a method to keep a watch over an enemy that is on your opposite border.

Its funny you call ISAF and NATO as imperialist when you yourself are hell-bent on imposing yourself on Afghanistan. If he doesn't agree with you, it is his right and you have no right to force another sovereign country to do your bid.

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## Parashuram1

SilentNinja said:


> You know, we should open up a separate thread for the atrocities committed by America, israel, NATO, and india!


And what about the atrocities committed by your country on your minorities? Or are you telling the world that Pakistan is the most angelic righteous and religious country in the world that everyone is envious of and is conspiring against? 

Your country is no different from any of these countries. Do you have an idea of how many militants have been frolicking around in your entire neighbourhood using your territory? And yet you say all those words of an innocent, neutral country. Look at your own image and then talk about other countries. Your country is equally guilty of similar things as what you blame all these countries for. 

Please stop commenting based on listening to self-obsessed foolish crowd-pullers and look at the situation with your own eyes and mind. You will find a very different picture. The reason why I am saying this is because funny Mr. Fundamentalist is so paranoid of Western countries and non-Muslims that he even refuses to acknowledge an Afghan's view of his own country. 

How would you feel if say NATO bullied you the way you start to make policies for Afghanistan? I am not demanding the "Muslims will fight like Lions" answer from you but just how would you as a Pakistani citizen feel? You think as if USA and Europe want to oppress the world and you are their sole liberator.

Look at South Korea and Japan today. Both have seen USA's involvement directly in their wars in the form of Korean war and World War II. Today, these countries are two of the most developed countries in the world. Their economies rank in top 10 and their prosperity is an envy even to some European countries. Science, medicine, technology, infrastructure....they have everything material *AS WELL AS* their culture and their faith of Buddhism. None of these nations use English and if a foreigner visits these countries, he or she HAS to learn their language, culture, customs and traditions. Do you see Koreans and Japanese begging NATO to spare their lives? Tell me what Taliban has done as compared to any of this?

After Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing, Japan was reduced to rubbles. Today you go to Hiroshima and see the change. This is the answer to your "sanctions" issue that you argued with Emo in another post. Japanese are here today because of their own pursuit of knowledge, dedication, hardwork, patience, perseverance and will. Can Taliban even achieve one millonth of this? 

You seem to spew so much venom against USA for nuclear bombing Imperial Japan; do you know if the USA had not done that and Axis had won what would have happened? Italy, Nazis and Japanese would have conquered entire world. Most of you non-white "non-Aryans"would be sent into concentration camps and those who survive would be speaking Japanese, Italian and German. So read some history for goodness sake before spitting venom.

The videos that you have posted are a part of every war that takes place. Soldiers are humans and human vice sometimes takes over some of those who are not able to control their minds. Should you be reminded of the war crimes perpetrated by Pakistani trooped on the Bangladeshi women during that war? Or do you still want to live in denial of your soldiers and people being God-gifted angels? 

War crimes are a tragedy and unfortunately since we are all humans, such evil happens always around the world. The best that can be done is to punish those who are guilty as individuals rather than blaming an entire nation for it and pray that such horrors don't happen to other innocents.

Besides, how would you know that the woman has spoken truth about her rapes? Do you think it is not easy for a bunch of savage-militants to rape her and threaten to kill her family if she doesn't lie about her rape in front of the camera? Or did you see the video while it was being filmed? 

You get to see half of these videos because US and other NATO troops allow the cameras and neutral agencies to come and film. HOW much of media freedom was available to Afghans during the rule of Taliban? In one of the posts here, someone actually posted that Taliban provided computers to some university in Afghanistan!! LOLZ!! Was he on drugs or what? 

The Taliban didn't even allow clapping during sports events, no music, no radio, no news channels, no schools for women, no medical institutes, no scientific academics, no television, no theaters, no nothing! And someone says about Computers? Media? That made my day.

You may call me a liar, zionist, fascist, or whatever but the truth is that these lines that I have written above is cross-checked, believed, documented, mentioned and trusted by all the countries around the world including neutral countries like France, Greece and we in Switzerland. You seem to be the only kind that support Taliban and their terrorist activities. NATO and US dismisses the perpetrators of war crimes, rapes etc. Every civilized country punishes the guilty which might be ignored by you due to selective blindness. Would a Taliban leader accept a charge like that despite being guilty, after holding untold power over people at gunpoint? Ask yourself without jumping into religious passion.

They are not responsible for 9/11 but giving safe haven to AQ, and militant agencies operating in Northern provinces of Republic India (please go to your favorite YouTube and see the international news report) for hijacking a civilian aircraft, is equivalent to abetting in terrorism themselves. 

Now if you want, deny all you want and call my posts rubbish, which majority of the world knows, accepts and acknowledges. For that I just have this:

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## Condor

Solomon2 said:


> Why are they proud of you?


SilentNinja: I am surprised to see you find these JUVENILES posts even worthy of reading.

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## waraich66

Parashuram1 said:


> Whatever be his ethnicity, he is an Afghan national and has full right to decide what is right for his country. Technically speaking, if you blame the ISAF for imperialism, you as a person(and a country) are equally to blame as you are imposing your own whims upon Afghanistan a sovereign country just because you wish to use their country as a method to keep a watch over an enemy that is on your opposite border.
> 
> Its funny you call ISAF and NATO as imperialist when you yourself are hell-bent on imposing yourself on Afghanistan. If he doesn't agree with you, it is his right and you have no right to force another sovereign country to do your bid.



I agree that my country not playing right role, we are all muslims we should be above of any ethnic differences.

Afghan should resolve their differences internally , but to support ISAF just because some one has fiqa differences is haram as per Islam.


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## adrenalin

With God's will, the Taliban will be eliminated this time. It's long overdue.


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Afghan talaban are fighting against invaders (ISAF) ,can you prove them terrorist?
> 
> What about Kashmir freedom fighters , what about 1947 freedom fighters?
> What about Palestine freedom fighters ?
> 
> Extreme Height of stupidity



The Kashmiris, Palestinians are fighting for their PEOPLE, the Taliban are fighting to establish their GOVERNMENT............Hell of a difference.....

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## Icarus

SilentNinja said:


> no, their not the same, gosh don't you people do your own research?
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/world/asia/23taliban.html



TTP is a franchise of the Afghan Taliban this is what they had to say when Baitullah died:

The Talibans jihad against foreign forces in Afghanistan will not be affected if a Pakistani Taliban leader is killed on the other side of the Durand line, Afghan Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid said by telephone from an undisclosed location.

We feel sympathy for our brothers who fight for the same cause, but resistance against the Afghan government and its foreign allies will continue.

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> The Kashmiris, Palestinians are fighting for their PEOPLE, the Taliban are fighting to establish their GOVERNMENT............Hell of a difference.....





Brother,

Can government be established without land , these all three(Afghan,Palestinian,kashmiris) are fighting to liberate their land from occupation then government as per wishes of people will be formed.


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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> I agree that my country not playing right role, we are all muslims we should be above of any ethnic differences.
> 
> Afghan should resolve their differences internally , but to support ISAF just because some one has fiqa differences is haram as per Islam.


Then don't howl and cry that the whole world is conspiring against Pakistani success of something. You have decided to do religious policing and therefore it is entirely *your *headache regarding how many enemies you _pile up_ in that process. Simply blaming other countries is not enough to prove them guilty. You tend to believe the news reports of Taliban denying any of their crimes yet when the same news agencies report that ISAF troops are guilty, you accept it and post it. This is called selective blindness where a person ignores what the truth is and chooses anything to escape the situation.

In the process of your disturbing obsession with religious fundamentalism, you even ignored an Afghan poster's view of his own country, one of the very Few Afghan members who represent their country here. You even went to call him a non-believer and what not because you feel Taliban serves your interests in their country, crushing their own say about their country. 

And you call ISAF imperialist? At least the international forces are constructing roadways highways, dams, hospitals etc. What medical infrastructure did Taliban have for Afghans? Didn't they just let women die of diseases because their perverted laws didn't let doctors treat them? 

What is the use of so-called law and order of this Taliban when a person cannot listen to music, watch T.V, listen to news, radio, come on internet and chat like you are right now sitting safely in some other country away from Taliban, or even CLAP for a national sports event? This is the worst prison any human can get. If you love the Taliban's so much then why don't you live under them in your country?

Sitting in a foreign country and blabbing around fundamentalist and extremist ideologies is easy Mr. Fundamentalist, living in those harsh conditions that Afghans suffered for so long is not. Settled in an oil rich country, with a good financial establishment and the convenience of modern amenities including the very internet you use, has perhaps made you forget the scenes of horror that Afghans face daily under Taliban.

What did the Taliban do to Hazaras and Shias if they are Muslims? You talk of the fictitious religious brotherhood when your own ideal warriors butcher your own brothers. And you blame that on ISAF? People like you and Silent Ninja just know how to talk like 15 year old chest-thumping teenagers sitting in the safety of their houses.

Even if there is not as much safety under the ISAF these days, at least Afghans can be treated in hospitals, can use public roads, can have food, can be sure that they are free to do as they please rather than the insane levels of fundamentalist nonsense they had to endure under the Talibans.

Supporting terrorism is easy. However these same "supporters" back away when law agencies raid your house and demand your affiliation with terrorists.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> I agree that my country not playing right role, we are all muslims we should be above of any ethnic differences.
> 
> Afghan should resolve their differences internally , but to support ISAF just because some one has fiqa differences is haram as per Islam.



Good, at least you now confirm that you guys have played negative role, thanks for being honest. Please practice what you preach. Arent you guys always playing ethnic card in Afghanistan to reach your proxy goals? How come now you talk about muslim unity and reject ethnicizm? You have got ethnic problems too, instead of looking at my country, first look at yourself.

On one hand you say people of afghanistan should solve their problmes internally and on the other hand you dictate them what to do.


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## DaRk WaVe

SilentNinja said:


> I have a life, do you want the details? let me know when your ready?



you were un able to understand the my sarcastic comments 'Go get a life' in my post & started bringing in rocket science 




> *"I think life under the Taliban was very good," said Maria Farah, a mother of five. "If we did not have a full stomach, we could at least get some food and go to sleep, and if we went out somewhere there were no problems. How about now? If we go out, we don't know if we will arrive home or not. If there is an explosion and the Americans are passing, they will just open fire on everyone. The security problems are too much here."*
> 
> We want the Taliban back, say ordinary Afghans - Asia, World - The Independent



If i for a moment think that Taliban were right, I mean their rule was same in Afgh & Pakistan this mean we did a wrong thing by annihilating them in Swat is it?
Pathetic, She is a uneducated woman who don't even knows whats right & wrong & even that previous doctor who said that he will support taliban rule but at the same time he said there are zero Medical facilities in afgh, so tell me what Medical facilities were been setup by Tlaiban in their Era? Just let me know 

& BTW read again 


> *If we go out, we don't know if we will arrive home or not. If there is an explosion and the Americans are passing, they will just open fire on everyone. The security problems are too much here."*



so they are killing the people they are fighting for, ain't that cool ain't eh? Or they are the people who are consumable for the greater good of God 


> UNAMA Human Rights (HR) recorded a total of 2,412 civilian deaths between 01 January and 31 December 2009. This figure represents an increase of 14% on the 2118 civilian deaths recorded in 2008. Of the 2,412 deaths reported in 2009, 1,630 (67%) were attributed to anti-Government elements (AGEs) and 596 (25%) to pro-Government forces (PGF). The remaining 186 deaths (8%) could not be attributed to any of the conflicting parties given as some civilians died as a result of cross-fire or were killed by unexploded ordinance.
> 
> AGEs remain responsible for the largest proportion of civilian deaths. Civilian deaths
> reportedly caused by the armed opposition increased by 41% between 2008 and 2009,
> from 1,160 to 1,630. Deaths resulting from insurgent-related activities in 2009 were a ratio of approximately three to one as compared to casualties caused by PGF.
> 
> http://unama.unmissions.org/Portals...rotection of Civilian 2009 report English.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a report by Human Rights Watch on the actions of the taliban upon their own afghan brothers and sisters. It itemizes targeted attacks, use of human shields, and IED/Mortar/rocket attacks without regard to civilians.
> 
> The Human Cost | Human Rights Watch
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


But i know you wont accept it, even if i bring down moon on earth 

Before you bring in ISAF, i have said you before I am not blind, Undoubtly ISAF has done many things which 'were un called for'




> How do you expect a country that has been sanctioned to build infrastructure?
> 
> BTW, i hope you know that Taliban was the first gov in history of Afghanistan that provided computers in its universities!b



universities in which women were banned???? 




> would love to once they come back into power! You know, a friend of mines once told me that his house in Afghanistan caught fire, his family had to leave home and they had nowhere to go and they desperately needed evacuation, Taliban saved him and his family by bringing in a helicopter and getting them into shelter!



hahahha, You beleive that friend but you won't believe what Afghan here have to say about their rule, anything said against tailban is propaganda, BTW Taliban do own Helicopters? Correct me if i am wrong




> no no no, don't try to lie now, according to you Taliban are devils and terrorists while America and NATO are angels who were sent down by god to save the poor innocent Afghans who were being ruthlessly slaughtered by Taliban devils for 7 years now!



as i said before. 'My evil is not smaller than yours, Evil is Evil', & did i said NATO missiles have Taliban recognition sensors, at least i condemn their nuisance what are you doing, you are justifying each act carried out by Taliban whether right or wrong only because they are Muslims 



> If i had control of world media i would also promote propaganda against America and NATO day and night, but sadly that's not the case, world media is controlled by Jews who are using it to promote their cause against Muslims!
> 
> *like i said Miss. EmoGirl, i have a lot of things to show you about how American soldiers gang raped and killed a iraqi girl and burned her and her family alive after wards, do you want to see your little angels being naughty?*
> 
> YouTube - Iraq War - The rape and murder of Abeer Qassim Hamza
> 
> Below is a link to a picture of what these ********* did to my Muslims sister in Iraq, and your here talking **** about Taliban:
> 
> Rape of Iraqi Women by US Forces as Weapon of War: Photos and Data Emerge | Asian Tribune
> 
> YouTube - Iraqi women rape by the forces of order
> 
> But after all Taliban and every other Mujahid and those who are striving for the cause of Allah are devils according to you and people like you, but on the other hand American s are saviours and our brothers who are dying for the truth!
> 
> and we're not allowed to pick up a gun and fight back because we don't have the right to self defense and determination, is that right?
> 
> These savages dishonor my sisters, and you want us to put our guns down?
> 
> YouTube- A letter from sister Fatima from Abu Graib Prison in Iraq!



Right, so is going to give you power over Media, we Muslims give them more & more reasons to malign us, can't you see that & moreover my point was different & you have diverted it i just proved how Muslims used education & political process to gain their goals without picking up guns & going on a rampage
what ever happened in Abu Gharib is in humane & US must trail & punish those who carried out these acts in name of investigation, I stand by you on that issue

I have never justified the rape carried out by US, this rape phenomenon is there in every country whether Muslim or non Muslim & i never talked about Iraq, there are many points in case of Iraq where i can actually agree with you


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Brother,
> 
> Can government be established without land , these all three(Afghan,Palestinian,kashmiris) are fighting to liberate their land from occupation then government as per wishes of people will be formed.



The taliban are also the stooges of pakistan, how come they liberate afghanistan? to liberate from one and give to another.

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## Patriot

Taliban will be defeated no doubt.I hope Afghans defeat them successfully..Taliban lost in 2001 not because of NATO but because of their arrogance and brutal methods.

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Brother,
> 
> Can government be established without land , these all three(Afghan,Palestinian,kashmiris) are fighting to liberate their land from occupation then government as per wishes of people will be formed.



With all due respect, Afghans already have their land and government.
Quote any one recent survey from a credible source that suggests that majority of Afghans want to live under Taliban rule again, and i will leave this discussion in shame.

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> With all due respect, Afghans already have their land and government.
> Quote any one recent survey from a credible source that suggests that majority of Afghans want to live under Taliban rule again, and i will leave this discussion in shame.



which government 

Karzai Government elected by fraud election , you dont know

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## S-2

A really interesting report from Afghanistan on the decreasing impact that suicide bombers are having upon the afghan population-

Afghan Suicide Bombings Lose Effectiveness As Tactic-NYT February 15, 2010

In short, although there have been more attacks since 2007, they numbers killed have dropped. I LOVE the last sentence of this story-

KABUL, Afghanistan  _"The Talibans suicide bombers have been selling their lives cheaply of late.

From Jan. 24 to Feb. 14, a total of 17 suicide bombers took aim at one coalition member after another but failed to kill any of them, according to a compilation of reports from Afghan police and military officials, and from the American-led International Security Assistance Force.

The latest failures were three suicide bombers who attacked an Afghan headquarters outside Marja on Sunday; local people reported them to the authorities, who shot them before they could set off their explosives, according to a spokesman for the Helmand Province governor.

ISAF officials credit better training of Afghan forces, and disruption of the bomb-makers networks by NATO-led raids. Analysts say the Taliban no longer have foreign expertise in preparing suicide bombers, and have a hard time finding competent recruits in a society that until recent years had little history of suicide attacks.

According to a New York Times tally, at least 480 people were killed in 129 suicide bombings in Afghanistan in 2007, not counting the bombers themselves. That death toll dropped to 275 in 2009, even though the number of bombings had increased. A spokesman for ISAF, Maj. Steve Cole, said bombings in recent months have averaged 15 or 16 a month.

In three episodes during the last three weeks, the bombers killed innocent bystanders instead of their coalition targets. Six of the last 17 suicide bombers did not wound anyone beyond themselves. In all, those 17 bombers wounded 23 members of NATO or Afghan security forces, while killing 6 civilians and wounding 27 others. 

A series of four episodes last Thursday, Friday and Saturday were illustrative of the recent attacks and near misses.

On Saturday, at a village in Kandahar Province, a suicide bomber on a motorcycle drove into a joint American-Afghan foot patrol and struck, wounding six American soldiers and five civilians, two of them children, but killing no one, according to the provincial governors spokesman. (An ISAF spokesman said earlier reports that three Americans were killed were incorrect.)

On Friday, a suicide car bomber took aim at an American convoy in Khost Province, detonating as it passed, according to a Taliban spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, who claimed that all the soldiers in two trucks were killed. A NATO spokesman, Maj. Matthew Gregory, scoffed at that, saying no coalition personnel were hurt. Also on Friday, a suicide bomber being pursued by ISAF forces blew himself up rather than surrender, according to the ISAF.

On Thursday, a man reportedly wearing a vest of explosives under an Afghan Border Police uniform penetrated a joint Afghan and American military base in Paktia Province in eastern Afghanistan, and exploded close to five American servicemen, wounding all five  but again killing none of them, according to the spokesman for the provinces governor. 

Asked about the attacks, Mr. Mujahid, the Taliban spokesman, argued that ISAF forces were covering up the damage. We fill those cars and vests using good techniques and lots of explosives but the American military will not let journalists go to the site of the incidents and make honest and real reports, he said.

Brig. Gen. Eric Tremblay, an ISAF spokesman, called the recent phenomenon a cumulative effect of many factors. The Afghan National Security Forces, in quality and quantity, are getting better and getting more experience, he said.

Were also targeting their command and control nodes and degrading their capacity, he added, both for bomb making and supplies.

In the Thursday episode, for example, the suicide bomber got close enough to kill the American soldiers, but his explosives were not powerful enough, General Tremblay said. If they had the right recipe, then those soldiers could not have survived, he said. 

Where suicide bombers have succeeded in Afghanistan, they have often been imports, not local people. A Jan. 18 attack involving at least two suicide bombers and other gunmen paralyzed Kabul for a day and killed five people, two of them police officers. The bombers, it later developed, had been smuggled into Afghanistan from Pakistan, according to Afghanistans intelligence service.

Similarly, while the Taliban claimed responsibility for the Dec. 30 attack in which a Jordanian double agent blew himself up at a C.I.A. base, killing seven Americans and a Jordanian intelligence officer, the bombers family maintained that he was working for Al Qaeda. In any case, he was not an Afghan.

The Taliban cannot reach their strategic goals, so they just go and blow themselves up on the roads, said Brig. Gen. Nawab Khan of the Afghan National Army. In the end, they dont have any achievements.

Mia Bloom, a researcher at the International Center for the Study of Terrorism at Pennsylvania State University, says their relative lack of recent success is due to a lower level of education, training and willingness among bombers here. Many of them are coerced or duped into becoming bombers, and the bombers are generally not very excited about the prospect, she said.

Less-motivated, less-educated guys are more likely to make mistakes, she added.

The Talibans success in their suicide campaign, particularly in 2007, was largely due to foreign fighters from Pakistan and Uzbekistan, but that has become much more difficult now because of better border enforcement, she said.

Suicide bombings are an imported tactic that took root slowly here. In the first four years of the conflict, there were only five suicide attacks, according to a United Nations report in 2007. The report also noted that 80 percent of the victims were civilians.

In 2007, the Taliban enlisted a 6-year-old boy, put a bomb vest on him and told him to go up to a group of soldiers and push a button. They told him flowers would shoot out, but the boy was not naïve enough to fall for it; instead he told authorities and they managed to get the vest off safely. 

It just shows you theyre not able to get the kind of volunteers in Afghanistan that you get in Israel, Sri Lanka or anywhere else, Ms. Bloom said.

The Talibans suicide bombers should not be dismissed simply because their body count is so low, General Tremblay cautioned. They still are projecting terror.

Dr. Bloom of the terrorism study center said, Theres also still a terror factor of course, but if the only person being killed is the bomber himself, its sort of like Darwinian selection.

The martyrdom testament videos that are so common in other countries are unknown here. Such individual recognition, said the United Nations report, is largely absent in Afghanistan. Instead, these suicide bombers are buried secretly at a potters field in a wasteland at the foot of a mountain, at Kol-e-Hashmat Khan, a neighborhood of junkyards on the outskirts of Kabul. A policeman on duty there said no one ever visited. Many of the unmarked graves have been dug open by starving dogs, which feast on the remains."_

Sangar Rahimi contributed reporting from Kabul, and employees of The New York Times from Khost, Kandahar and Helmand Provinces.

Thanks.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> which government
> 
> Karzai Government elected by fraud election , you dont know



That is very funny statement from you, isnt it? The first time Karzai got elected was fair and free, because the taliban had gone for good. The parliament is elected and there was no fraud in it and was free and fair(By our standard). Karzai's second term was fraudant in those areas where the Taliban are active. In West, North, North East, Central afghanistan and capital the election was held with no significant problem and was free/fair. In the south notabley in Helmand and Qandahar there was fraud because the Taliban disrupted the election and this caused major problems. 

Now you tell me about the Taliban elections? They simply came on gun point and killed the innocent peopole. and kakgeta is right. give us one source to suggest that the people of afghanistan want to live under the taliban?


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> which government
> 
> Karzai Government elected by fraud election , you dont know



I have loads of Afghan friends and i know for a fact that Karazai's government is quite popular in Afghanistan, not because he is a very able politician but because Afghanistan has experienced development during his time and after about 3 decades of stagnation, it is quite a blessing for them.

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## Icarus

S-2 said:


> A really interesting report from Afghanistan on the decreasing impact that suicide bombers are having upon the afghan population-
> 
> Afghan Suicide Bombings Lose Effectiveness As Tactic-NYT February 15, 2010
> 
> In short, although there have been more attacks since 2007, they numbers killed have dropped. I LOVE the last sentence of this story-
> 
> KABUL, Afghanistan  _"The Talibans suicide bombers have been selling their lives cheaply of late.
> 
> From Jan. 24 to Feb. 14, a total of 17 suicide bombers took aim at one coalition member after another but failed to kill any of them, according to a compilation of reports from Afghan police and military officials, and from the American-led International Security Assistance Force.
> 
> The latest failures were three suicide bombers who attacked an Afghan headquarters outside Marja on Sunday; local people reported them to the authorities, who shot them before they could set off their explosives, according to a spokesman for the Helmand Province governor.
> 
> ISAF officials credit better training of Afghan forces, and disruption of the bomb-makers networks by NATO-led raids. Analysts say the Taliban no longer have foreign expertise in preparing suicide bombers, and have a hard time finding competent recruits in a society that until recent years had little history of suicide attacks.
> 
> According to a New York Times tally, at least 480 people were killed in 129 suicide bombings in Afghanistan in 2007, not counting the bombers themselves. That death toll dropped to 275 in 2009, even though the number of bombings had increased. A spokesman for ISAF, Maj. Steve Cole, said bombings in recent months have averaged 15 or 16 a month.
> 
> In three episodes during the last three weeks, the bombers killed innocent bystanders instead of their coalition targets. Six of the last 17 suicide bombers did not wound anyone beyond themselves. In all, those 17 bombers wounded 23 members of NATO or Afghan security forces, while killing 6 civilians and wounding 27 others.
> 
> A series of four episodes last Thursday, Friday and Saturday were illustrative of the recent attacks and near misses.
> 
> On Saturday, at a village in Kandahar Province, a suicide bomber on a motorcycle drove into a joint American-Afghan foot patrol and struck, wounding six American soldiers and five civilians, two of them children, but killing no one, according to the provincial governors spokesman. (An ISAF spokesman said earlier reports that three Americans were killed were incorrect.)
> 
> On Friday, a suicide car bomber took aim at an American convoy in Khost Province, detonating as it passed, according to a Taliban spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, who claimed that all the soldiers in two trucks were killed. A NATO spokesman, Maj. Matthew Gregory, scoffed at that, saying no coalition personnel were hurt. Also on Friday, a suicide bomber being pursued by ISAF forces blew himself up rather than surrender, according to the ISAF.
> 
> On Thursday, a man reportedly wearing a vest of explosives under an Afghan Border Police uniform penetrated a joint Afghan and American military base in Paktia Province in eastern Afghanistan, and exploded close to five American servicemen, wounding all five  but again killing none of them, according to the spokesman for the provinces governor.
> 
> Asked about the attacks, Mr. Mujahid, the Taliban spokesman, argued that ISAF forces were covering up the damage. We fill those cars and vests using good techniques and lots of explosives but the American military will not let journalists go to the site of the incidents and make honest and real reports, he said.
> 
> Brig. Gen. Eric Tremblay, an ISAF spokesman, called the recent phenomenon a cumulative effect of many factors. The Afghan National Security Forces, in quality and quantity, are getting better and getting more experience, he said.
> 
> Were also targeting their command and control nodes and degrading their capacity, he added, both for bomb making and supplies.
> 
> In the Thursday episode, for example, the suicide bomber got close enough to kill the American soldiers, but his explosives were not powerful enough, General Tremblay said. If they had the right recipe, then those soldiers could not have survived, he said.
> 
> Where suicide bombers have succeeded in Afghanistan, they have often been imports, not local people. A Jan. 18 attack involving at least two suicide bombers and other gunmen paralyzed Kabul for a day and killed five people, two of them police officers. The bombers, it later developed, had been smuggled into Afghanistan from Pakistan, according to Afghanistans intelligence service.
> 
> Similarly, while the Taliban claimed responsibility for the Dec. 30 attack in which a Jordanian double agent blew himself up at a C.I.A. base, killing seven Americans and a Jordanian intelligence officer, the bombers family maintained that he was working for Al Qaeda. In any case, he was not an Afghan.
> 
> The Taliban cannot reach their strategic goals, so they just go and blow themselves up on the roads, said Brig. Gen. Nawab Khan of the Afghan National Army. In the end, they dont have any achievements.
> 
> Mia Bloom, a researcher at the International Center for the Study of Terrorism at Pennsylvania State University, says their relative lack of recent success is due to a lower level of education, training and willingness among bombers here. Many of them are coerced or duped into becoming bombers, and the bombers are generally not very excited about the prospect, she said.
> 
> Less-motivated, less-educated guys are more likely to make mistakes, she added.
> 
> The Talibans success in their suicide campaign, particularly in 2007, was largely due to foreign fighters from Pakistan and Uzbekistan, but that has become much more difficult now because of better border enforcement, she said.
> 
> Suicide bombings are an imported tactic that took root slowly here. In the first four years of the conflict, there were only five suicide attacks, according to a United Nations report in 2007. The report also noted that 80 percent of the victims were civilians.
> 
> In 2007, the Taliban enlisted a 6-year-old boy, put a bomb vest on him and told him to go up to a group of soldiers and push a button. They told him flowers would shoot out, but the boy was not naïve enough to fall for it; instead he told authorities and they managed to get the vest off safely.
> 
> It just shows you theyre not able to get the kind of volunteers in Afghanistan that you get in Israel, Sri Lanka or anywhere else, Ms. Bloom said.
> 
> The Talibans suicide bombers should not be dismissed simply because their body count is so low, General Tremblay cautioned. They still are projecting terror.
> 
> Dr. Bloom of the terrorism study center said, Theres also still a terror factor of course, but if the only person being killed is the bomber himself, its sort of like Darwinian selection.
> 
> The martyrdom testament videos that are so common in other countries are unknown here. Such individual recognition, said the United Nations report, is largely absent in Afghanistan. Instead, these suicide bombers are buried secretly at a potters field in a wasteland at the foot of a mountain, at Kol-e-Hashmat Khan, a neighborhood of junkyards on the outskirts of Kabul. *A policeman on duty there said no one ever visited. Many of the unmarked graves have been dug open by starving dogs, which feast on the remains."*_
> 
> Sangar Rahimi contributed reporting from Kabul, and employees of The New York Times from Khost, Kandahar and Helmand Provinces.
> 
> Thanks.



God protect us from such a gruesome end.........Ameen


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## S-2

*"God protect us from such a gruesome end..."*

God spare these evil men no end to the eternal misery you can call forth.

See? Even the lowly dogs suffer from hunger. At least these deluded souls found SOME useful purpose in life even if it followed their deaths. Today another bomb blast killed more than 25 innocents at a market in Orakzai. 
Even now, the accomplice celebrates his _victory_ with his peers and minions.

I've no sympathy for men who look to harm innocent civilians just to heighten fear and despair. Life is sufficiently hard enough in Afghanistan and Pakistan for all these days.

Thanks.

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## Developereo

S-2 said:


> Afghan Suicide Bombings Lose Effectiveness As Tactic-NYT February 15, 2010
> [...]
> these suicide bombers are buried secretly at a potters field in a wasteland at the foot of a mountain, at Kol-e-Hashmat Khan, a neighborhood of junkyards on the outskirts of Kabul. A policeman on duty there said no one ever visited. Many of the unmarked graves have been dug open by starving dogs, which feast on the remains.



The "report" pretty much lost credibility at that statement, not that it had much to begin with.

The NYT must be getting desperate to get so sloppy and amateurish in their propaganda; normally they are much more polished and circuitous.

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## waraich66

Can We Defeat the Taliban?
We must understand why our foes in Afghanistan are so formidable.

1 | 2 | 3 | Next >

EDITORS NOTE: Last week, the New York Times asked President Obama whether the United States is winning in Afghanistan. No, he replied. An additional 17,000 U.S. troops are now on their way to the war-torn country. Why has the Taliban proven to be such a difficult adversary? David Kilcullen, senior counterinsurgency adviser to Gen. David Petraeus in Iraq, explains in this exclusive book excerpt from The Accidental Guerilla: Fighting Small Wars in the Midst of a Big One.


On the basis of my field experience in 200508 in Iraq, Southeast Asia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, I assess the current generation of Taliban fighters, within the broader Taliban confederation (which loosely combines old Taliban cadres with Pashtun nationalists, tribal fighters, and religious extremists), as the most tactically competent enemy we currently face in any theater. This judgment draws on four factors: organizational structure, motivation, combat skills, and equipment.

Taliban organizational structure varies between districts, but most show some variation of the generic pattern of a local clandestine network structure, a main force of full-time guerrillas who travel from valley to valley, and a part-time network of villagers who cooperate with the main force when it is in their area. In districts close to the Pakistan border, young men graduating from Pakistani madrassas also swarm across the frontier to join the main force when it engages in major combat  as happened during the September 2006 fighting in Kandahar Province, and again in the 2007 and 2008 fighting seasons.

These multifaceted motivations provide Taliban fighters with a strong but elastic discipline. Although opportunities may arise for us to divide and conquer elements of the enemy, in practice local ties tend to far outweigh government influence. Thus we need to induce local tribal and community leaders who have the respect and tribal loyalty of part-time elements to wean them away from loyalty to the main-force Taliban. Appealing to the self-interest of local clandestine cell leaders may also help isolate them from the influence of senior Taliban leaders who are currently safe in Pakistan.

Can We Defeat the Taliban? - David Kilcullen - National Review Online

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Can We Defeat the Taliban?
> We must understand why our foes in Afghanistan are so formidable.
> 
> 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >
> 
> EDITORS NOTE: Last week, the New York Times asked President Obama whether the United States is winning in Afghanistan. No, he replied. An additional 17,000 U.S. troops are now on their way to the war-torn country. Why has the Taliban proven to be such a difficult adversary? David Kilcullen, senior counterinsurgency adviser to Gen. David Petraeus in Iraq, explains in this exclusive book excerpt from The Accidental Guerilla: Fighting Small Wars in the Midst of a Big One.
> 
> 
> On the basis of my field experience in 200508 in Iraq, Southeast Asia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, I assess the current generation of Taliban fighters, within the broader Taliban confederation (which loosely combines old Taliban cadres with Pashtun nationalists, tribal fighters, and religious extremists), as the most tactically competent enemy we currently face in any theater. This judgment draws on four factors: organizational structure, motivation, combat skills, and equipment.
> 
> Taliban organizational structure varies between districts, but most show some variation of the generic pattern of a local clandestine network structure, a main force of full-time guerrillas who travel from valley to valley, and a part-time network of villagers who cooperate with the main force when it is in their area. In districts close to the Pakistan border, young men graduating from Pakistani madrassas also swarm across the frontier to join the main force when it engages in major combat  as happened during the September 2006 fighting in Kandahar Province, and again in the 2007 and 2008 fighting seasons.
> 
> These multifaceted motivations provide Taliban fighters with a strong but elastic discipline. Although opportunities may arise for us to divide and conquer elements of the enemy, in practice local ties tend to far outweigh government influence. Thus we need to induce local tribal and community leaders who have the respect and tribal loyalty of part-time elements to wean them away from loyalty to the main-force Taliban. Appealing to the self-interest of local clandestine cell leaders may also help isolate them from the influence of senior Taliban leaders who are currently safe in Pakistan.
> 
> Can We Defeat the Taliban? - David Kilcullen - National Review Online



tell them not to take the civilians as human shield and see if they can win or lose.


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Can We Defeat the Taliban?
> We must understand why our foes in Afghanistan are so formidable.
> 
> 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >
> 
> EDITOR&#8217;S NOTE: Last week, the New York Times asked President Obama whether the United States is winning in Afghanistan. &#8220;No,&#8221; he replied. An additional 17,000 U.S. troops are now on their way to the war-torn country. Why has the Taliban proven to be such a difficult adversary? David Kilcullen, senior counterinsurgency adviser to Gen. David Petraeus in Iraq, explains in this exclusive book excerpt from The Accidental Guerilla: Fighting Small Wars in the Midst of a Big One.
> 
> 
> On the basis of my field experience in 2005&#8211;08 in Iraq, Southeast Asia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, I assess the current generation of Taliban fighters, within the broader Taliban confederation (which loosely combines old Taliban cadres with Pashtun nationalists, tribal fighters, and religious extremists), as the most tactically competent enemy we currently face in any theater. This judgment draws on four factors: organizational structure, motivation, combat skills, and equipment.
> 
> Taliban organizational structure varies between districts, but most show some variation of the generic pattern of a local clandestine network structure, a main force of full-time guerrillas who travel from valley to valley, and a part-time network of villagers who cooperate with the main force when it is in their area. In districts close to the Pakistan border, young men graduating from Pakistani madrassas also swarm across the frontier to join the main force when it engages in major combat &#8212; as happened during the September 2006 fighting in Kandahar Province, and again in the 2007 and 2008 fighting seasons.
> 
> These multifaceted motivations provide Taliban fighters with a strong but elastic discipline. Although opportunities may arise for us to &#8220;divide and conquer&#8221; elements of the enemy, in practice local ties tend to far outweigh government influence. Thus we need to induce local tribal and community leaders who have the respect and tribal loyalty of part-time elements to wean them away from loyalty to the main-force Taliban. Appealing to the self-interest of local clandestine cell leaders may also help isolate them from the influence of senior Taliban leaders who are currently safe in Pakistan.
> 
> Can We Defeat the Taliban? - David Kilcullen - National Review Online



If we also forget our morals and indiscriminately bomb areas under their control, killing them and their hostage population, i believe the War in Afghanistan and Pakistan can be wrapped up within a week, but then............we wouldn't be much different from these guys would we ?

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## Icarus

Plus they never stand and fight, they attack from behind and then run back into the shadows like the cowards that they are, can you cite any one occurrence when these people stood and fight ? I for one would rather lose like a Hero then to win like a coward.


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> tell them not to take the civilians as human shield and see if they can win or lose.



Read full article and make comment, Aghan Mujahdeen are much stronger in Gurrilla ware tactics then ISAF which need minimum one million COIN trained army @ 15000 per distt(398 Total Distts ) to defeat them.

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> Plus they never stand and fight, they attack from behind and then run back into the shadows like the cowards that they are, can you cite any one occurrence when these people stood and fight ? I for one would rather lose like a Hero then to win like a coward.



Hit and Run is Gurrilla war Tactic is sucessfull against 10 times greater army with air support .When they will get stinger they will fight one to one 

Russia had 150K army defeated in same battle field with Gurrilla Tactics.

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Read full article and make comment, Aghan Mujahdeen are much stronger in Gurrilla ware tactics then ISAF which need minimum one million COIN trained army @ 15000 per distt(398 Total Distts ) to defeat them.



If you call taking hostages/making people human shields as the Gurilla tactics, than god save both of us. but how can you say that all the districts of Afghanistan is like Marjah? West, North, Central parts, alot of parts of east are calm areas, south is problem but not all of them, helmand and qandahar is worst.

lastly, if people of afghanistan are not able to deal with the talbian then your taliban can survive too, you and me(afghanistan and paksitan) will burn in this same fire togheter inshallah.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Hit and Run is Gurrilla war Tactic is sucessfull against 10 times greater army with air support .When they will get stinger they will fight one to one
> 
> Russia had 150K army defeated in same battle field with Gurrilla Tactics.



Dont mix hit and run tactics with taking people as hostages, they are world apart different things. and also dont mix the situation of russians with the NATO, there are differences like sky and earth.

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Hit and Run is Gurrilla war Tactic is sucessfull against 10 times greater army with air support .When they will get stinger they will fight one to one
> 
> Russia had 150K army defeated in same battle field with Gurrilla Tactics.



Hit and Run can cause disruption but cannot win a war,to win a war you have to mount offensives and overcome your enemy not kill afew of their men and lots of civilians, another reason why the Taliban can and will be defeated, InshahAllah(God Willing).


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## Icarus

Unity said:


> If you call taking hostages/making people human shields as the Gurilla tactics, than god save both of us. but how can you say that all the districts of Afghanistan is like Marjah? West, North, Central parts, alot of parts of east are calm areas, south is problem but not all of them, helmand and qandahar is worst.
> 
> lastly, if people of afghanistan are not able to deal with the talbian then your taliban can survive too, you and me(afghanistan and paksitan) will burn in this same fire togheter *inshallah*.



I don't think writing InshAllah there is the brightest thing to do.......


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## Thomas

Fundamentalist said:


> Hit and Run is Gurrilla war Tactic is sucessfull against 10 times greater army with air support .When they will get stinger they will fight one to one
> 
> Russia had 150K army defeated in same battle field with Gurrilla Tactics.



Huge differences with the War against the Soviets and now. The Mujaheddin had the financial, logistical, and technical support of a number of countries. They also had the overall support of the people. 

Today the Taliban even with their drug money does not enjoy that level of support. Every time they blow up a school. Use the civilians as human shields. Or march into a village and executing the men. They alienate themselves from the civilian populace. And without winning the hearts and minds of the civilian populace. An insurgency is doomed to fail eventually.

No Human being wants to live in fear. And fear has been the only tool the Taliban have been adept at using from even before 9/11. Once the people realize they no longer have to live in fear. Then you will see true change come to Afghanistan. 

When you live in darkness for so long and then experience the light. You learn to appreciate life in new ways.

Question for you Fundamentalist. If you believe so strongly in the Taliban and their methods and ideology. Why are you not fighting with them? Or do you work with them already? Not that I expect you to really have the guts to answer that last one.

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## Desert Fox

EmO GiRl said:


> you were un able to understand the my *sarcastic* comments 'Go get a life' in my post & started bringing in rocket science



I didn't know you were being sarcastic, Sarcasm isn't allowed, read forum rules:

*"Sarcastic posts
We do not allow people to post sarcastic post at all. They are a very pathetic way in the end to back things up. They will be deleted on sight."*

Did you even read forum rules before joining defence.pk?





EmO GiRl said:


> If i for a moment think that Taliban were right, I mean their rule was same in Afgh & Pakistan this mean we did a wrong thing by annihilating them in Swat is it?



No, it was different, very different! In fact TTP were forcing girls into marriage with their men, but Afghan Taliban never did that!




EmO GiRl said:


> Pathetic, She is a uneducated woman who don't even knows whats right & wrong & even that previous doctor who said that he will support taliban rule but at the same time he said there are zero Medical facilities in afgh, so tell me what Medical facilities were been setup by Tlaiban in their Era? Just let me know



I can prove you wrong many times, but your ignorance doesn't want to to believe, but one day you will have to face reality



EmO GiRl said:


> & BTW read again



no, you should read again:

"If we go out, we don't know if we will arrive home or not. If there is an explosion and *the Americans are passing, they will just open fire on everyone. The security problems are too much here.*"




EmO GiRl said:


> so they are killing the people they are fighting for, ain't that cool ain't eh? Or they are the people who are consumable for the greater good of God



No, their not, its just western propaganda.


BTW, you should check out my post #237 about how British SAS were caught dressed up as insurgents planting bombs in civilian populated areas in Afghanistan and Iraq, here is the link:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/677558-post237.html



EmO GiRl said:


> But i know you wont accept it, even if i bring down moon on earth



nice try, but i already know ground reality, no need to bring in propaganda posts



EmO GiRl said:


> Before you bring in ISAF, i have said you before I am not blind, Undoubtly ISAF has done many things which 'were un called for'



No, Taliban evil is greater then ISAF evil (according to you)!






EmO GiRl said:


> universities in which women were banned????



Said who, RAWA? CNN? BBC? Fox News? MSNBC? NY times? Did any of these channels (propaganda channels who cover up American atrocities committed in Muslims countries) tell you this?






EmO GiRl said:


> hahahha, You beleive that friend but you won't believe what Afghan here have to say about their rule, anything said against tailban is propaganda, *BTW Taliban do own Helicopters? Correct me if i am wrong*



Yeah Taliban did own a few helicopters that they had captured from the communist gov of Afghanistan during Soviet Afghan war!

You'll be surprised to know how many weapons they had captured

And trust me, my friend was telling the truth! But like i said, i can prove you wrong many times but you still won't believe me because your ignorance doesn't want you to!





EmO GiRl said:


> as i said before. 'My evil is not smaller than yours, Evil is Evil', & did i said NATO missiles have Taliban recognition sensors, at least i condemn their nuisance what are you doing, you are justifying each act carried out by Taliban whether right or wrong only because they are Muslims



Nope, Taliban "evil" (that's if they did evil) is much much less than American, NATO, indian, and israeli evil!

Like i said, if had control of world media i would also broadcast propaganda against America, israel, and india NATO 24/7!





EmO GiRl said:


> Right, so is going to give you power over Media, we Muslims give them more & more reasons to malign us, can't you see that & moreover my point was different & you have diverted it i just proved how Muslims used education & political process to gain their goals without picking up guns & going on a rampage
> what ever happened in Abu Gharib is in humane & US must trail & punish those who carried out these acts in name of investigation, I stand by you on that issue
> 
> I have never justified the rape carried out by US, this rape phenomenon is there in every country whether Muslim or non Muslim & i never talked about Iraq, there are many points in case of Iraq where i can actually agree with you



You don't make sense in your above post, if someone brakes into your house and rapes your mom or sister, would you start picking up a book and educating yourself? or would you pick up a gun and defend your god given right?

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## Icarus

> *I can prove you wrong many times*, but your ignorance doesn't want to to believe, but one day you will have to face reality



Then go ahead and prove it................

*"If we go out, we don't know if we will arrive home or not. If there is an explosion and the Americans are passing, they will just open fire on everyone. The security problems are too much here."*

Same can easily be said for the Taliban too.


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## Icarus

I have an Afghan friend named Junaid, once last year an ISAF plane accidentally bombed a marriage ceremony in Afghanistan, killing 100 people. I went to him and asked:"Don't these things make you hate ISAF ?"
His reply hit me like a solid brick wall at 210kmph, he said "The ISAF people will knock on that family's door next morning, admit that they made a horrible mistake and compensate the family by paying them blood money, giving jobs to each heir, taking full responsibility for the family's medical and educational needs and give them the alternative to pursue the matter in court." However, had the same 100 people died at the hands of the Taliban, they would have knocked on that family's door and said: "Congratulations, we have sent 100 of your clansmen to heaven, now YOU pay us compensation and give 1 heir from each family for jihad, if you choose to say otherwise, we will just kill another 100 people." 
That my friends is the difference.............

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## Desert Fox

Kakgeta said:


> I have an Afghan friend named Junaid, once last year an ISAF plane accidentally bombed a marriage ceremony in Afghanistan, killing 100 people. I went to him and asked:"Don't these things make you hate ISAF ?"
> His reply hit me like a solid brick wall at 210kmph, he said "The ISAF people will knock on that family's door next morning, admit that they made a horrible mistake and compensate the family by paying them blood money, giving jobs to each heir, taking full responsibility for the family's medical and educational needs and give them the alternative to pursue the matter in court." However, had the same 100 people died at the hands of the Taliban, they would have knocked on that family's door and said: "Congratulations, we have sent 100 of your clansmen to heaven, now YOU pay us compensation and give 1 heir from each family for jihad, if you choose to say otherwise, we will just kill another 100 people."
> That my friends is the difference.............



lol, that's not what this video is showing:






like i said, i can prove you wrong a thousand time, but your ignorance will not let you believe!

BTW, what kind of human being would forget about the death of their family members and take money from those who killed them?

like i said, Taliban will never be defeated 

clearly Taliban are gaining support! And people say* "Taliban will lose"*, that is the biggest joke on the face of this earth! Seriously, even Chris Rock can't come up with such hilarious jokes!

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## Ahmad

Dear Silent,

The death of these civilians are as painful as the death of those killed by the Taliban. I ask you something: In paksitan you have also got the problem of Taliban, your army is engaged in a full scale war against your taliban with no prospect of any near end to that war. Dont you think the civilians have been killed by the PA's fire power? what is your reaction to that civilian casualty in the hands of PA?

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## Ahmad

the Taliban killed 27 people in around Helmand province(old news), they were all from the same province of Laghman, they were on their way to Iran to find work, the taliban caught and beheaded them all in charge of spying. Here is a protest against the Taliban in this province. There are alot of videos that all of us can post to prove our points, but non of them on their own can definately be the ultimate judgement and verdict of Afghan people. there is no question that the Taliban have some support, but they are certainly not popular group and their support is very limited, people get frustrated by these insecurity but that does not mean they prefer the Taliban. Dont we have insecurity in Pakistan too? Do the Pakistani public want the taliban instead of this gov? the answer is a big no. Here is the video of protest against the taliban because of the slaying of those 27 young guys. By the way i come from this province.


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## Desert Fox

Yep, Afghans hate Taliban and they want America to stay:











Taliban will never be defeated, mark my words!

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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> Yep, Afghans hate Taliban and they want America to stay:
> 
> YouTube - Afghans' anger at Obama's Nobel peace prize win - 10 December 09
> 
> YouTube - Afghan anger at government over civilian deaths - 24 Mar 09
> 
> Taliban will never be defeated, mark my words!



As i said above, these videos on their own cant be the verdict of afghan people. if you say so then what do you think about the video i posted? Afghans dont love the Americans, but they dont want them to leave afghanistan either until things get settled down. Do the afghans want americans leave right now and the taliban take over? the answer is a big NO!

I asked you a question about the civilian casualty of Pakistanis by the PA fire power, what do you call that and what is your reaction to taht?


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## Desert Fox

Taliban winning hearts and minds:
















Don't worry, within a few years even the Northern Alliance will switch sides and join Taliban against American forces! its only a matter of time!

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## waraich66

Thomas said:


> Huge differences with the War against the Soviets and now. The Mujaheddin had the financial, logistical, and technical support of a number of countries. They also had the overall support of the people.
> 
> Today the Taliban even with their drug money does not enjoy that level of support. Every time they blow up a school. Use the civilians as human shields. Or march into a village and executing the men. They alienate themselves from the civilian populace. And without winning the hearts and minds of the civilian populace. An insurgency is doomed to fail eventually.
> 
> No Human being wants to live in fear. And fear has been the only tool the Taliban have been adept at using from even before 9/11. Once the people realize they no longer have to live in fear. Then you will see true change come to Afghanistan.
> 
> When you live in darkness for so long and then experience the light. You learn to appreciate life in new ways.
> 
> Question for you Fundamentalist. If you believe so strongly in the Taliban and their methods and ideology. Why are you not fighting with them? Or do you work with them already? Not that I expect you to really have the guts to answer that last one.



No doubt , being Khan love them also all muslim are just like one body , although i dont agree with style of governance and forced islam methodology of talaban.

My point is ISAF should use political sources , present war is just to force them on peace talk which also wrong method, Talaban shourah can be convinced to lay down their arms , i can assure you but through dialogues not with force.


But ISAF and Obama should also take soft tone , war is not solution of any problem.


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## prithwidw

I think the taliban cannot be defeated. US created it against Russia. But too much for US to control it now.

Talibans will emerge as the winners

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## Solomon2

prithwidw said:


> I think the taliban cannot be defeated. US created it against Russia.


See my previous post on this thread: link


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## prithwidw

Solomon2 said:


> See my previous post on this thread: link



Seen and replied.


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## Desert Fox

Fundamentalist said:


> No doubt , being Khan love them also all muslim are just like one body , although i dont agree with style of governance and forced islam methodology of talaban.
> 
> My point is ISAF should use political sources , present war is just to force them on peace talk which also wrong method, Talaban shourah can be convinced to lay down their arms , i can assure you but through dialogues not with force.
> 
> 
> But ISAF and Obama should also take soft tone , war is not solution of any problem.



yeah, a peaceful dialogue should be the way out of this mess!

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## Ahmad

Surrendering and switching side is not something new in Afghanistan's 30 year trouble , look at this report:
*Taliban surrendering in Badghis:

HERAT, Afghanistan - With the focus of the Taliban's spring offensive turning increasingly toward the northwestern provinces adjoining Iran, rather than on the southwest, the next few months could prove pivotal in the ongoing insurgency against North Atlantic Treaty Organization-led forces.

Indeed, within the space of a few hours the surprises included the surrender of 40 Taliban and a mass Taliban attack on district police outposts.

On Saturday morning in Herat, this correspondent witnessed the surrender of 40 Taliban under the government's Takhim-e-Solh - Program for Strengthening Peace and Reconciliation (PTS) - which is aimed primarily at the Taliban and members of the Hizb-i-Islami of warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar.

All of those handing themselves over hailed from Badghis province, Herat province's immediate northerly neighbor. Under tight security, the Taliban were accommodated in a guesthouse, after which they handed over their weapons. These included mortars, light machine-guns, AK-47 rifles, shells and rockets.

The PTS now has 11 regional offices, and more than 2,500 former Taliban fighters and other insurgents have left the battlefield and joined the program.

The Herat provincial head of the PTS, Mohammed Sharif Mojadidi, told Asia Times Online that in the past year and a half, about 800 Taliban and fighters loyal to Hekmatyar had surrendered their weapons to his office.

Those who are qualified enough are given government jobs and others are simply given an amnesty and allowed to return to their towns and villages in peace.

The Taliban surrendering on Saturday were reluctant to speak, let alone give their names or details, so it is difficult to say what motivated them. Certainly many of them looked positively terrified, presumably thinking of what might happen to them should the Taliban find out about them. *

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - A Taliban surrender and a mass attack

Here's the video of another taliban commander surrendering in Herat to the Government of Afghanistan:






Herat is now a peaceful province, economy is flouresing(spelling) economy, Iran has heavily invested in these areas, NGOs are deeply involved, roads, buildings, hospitals, trade, schools, many many things have brought life back to this historic and one of the main cultural centres of afghansitan. And since the Taliban have surrendered or being killed in this province, the security have greatly improved.

here is another report that the taliban surrenedred in Herat:

*KABUL, Oct. 14 (Xinhua) -- Over 68 Taliban insurgents laid down their arms and surrendered to the government in western Herat province of Afghanistan on Wednesday, head of Strengthening Peace Committee Hazrat Sharif Mujadadi said.

&#12288;&#12288;"Fifty insurgents from Gazara and Pashtun Zarghon districts laid down their arms today and vowed not to fight against the government," Mujadadi told Xinhua.

&#12288;&#12288;Senior military commander of Afghan forces in the province General Jalandar Shah Behnam also said that 18 more insurgents from both the above districts surrendered to the government troops Wednesday.

&#12288;&#12288;Their surrender took place in the wake of the killing of Taliban key commander Ghulam Yahya Akbari days ago.*

68 militants surrender in W. Afghanistan

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## Parashuram1

It is very disturbing to see the level of happiness Silent Ninja and Fundamentalist show towards the Taliban's violent and uncivilized methods of oppressive ruling. And for those of you who are relying on the "Soviet got defeated by the Taliban mujahideens" was 50&#37; because the Mujahideen had total support of more than 25 NATO countries against 1 Soviet Union. Though I am not a fan of Communism and dislike their cold methods, being neutral I would say that Soviets fought valiantly. It was unexpected for United States to fall in the same well that it had seen Soviet Union fall into.

Today the case is different. Except for maybe a handful of Pakistanis (majority of your countrymen hate the Taliban and have expressed in clear words) like you, Taliban has no support; not even from the Arab states. The only financial support is through rogue channels managed by fanatic supporters in government misappropriating national wealth, versus the might of 30 countries and the political support of more than 50. 

Remember that even though Americans, Iranians, Russians, Indians and Chinese are all separate countries none of them militarily aligned to the other (with former two on a collision course) even these countries are against the thought of Taliban ever rising. So even arch-rivals and estranged countries have united against Taliban and this shows that except for fundamentalists like some of you, the entire world including the people of your country and your government support the efforts against these terrorists. Let me tell you why each of these countries have same interest despite different political ideologies.

1) *United States/NATO*: To quell fundamentalist terrorism and avoiding any future attacks on its soil.

2) *Iranians*: Sensitive to Shiite cause and to avoid any further massacres of Shiite Muslims in future.

3) *Russians*: Vital stakes in Central Asia (CIS countries) at threat from Islamist fundamentalism and a threat to their area of influence. Also Taliban may offer refuge to terrorists operating in Chechen areas of Russian Federation. Even vengeance can be a possibility. Russians are well-known for punishing those who attack them.

4)* Indians:* Wary about their potential access to Central Asia and after the haven provided by Talibans to the Indian Airlines hijackers, an idea of how many terrorists against Indian government can Taliban help and wreak havoc in South Asia.

5) *Chinese:* To quell Islamist fundamentalism and the uprising of potential terrorism in their own country, which out of unwarranted emotions might be supported by Taliban and their AQ allies. Please refer to the threat of Al-Qaeda to bomb Chinese cities.

So you see, the so-called "invincible" Taliban has only support of individual fundamentalists and religious fascists who are themselves living in luxury with all modern facilities in democratic countries but continue to blindly support a terrorist organization who claims to be the savior of Islam even after massacring innocent fellow-Muslims in Afghanistan.

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## Desert Fox

Parashuram1 said:


> It is very disturbing to see the level of happiness Silent Ninja and Fundamentalist show towards the Taliban's violent and uncivilized methods of oppressive ruling.



and you think Taliban are violent and oppressive? Wait till you go to this link:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/677417-post213.html

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## S-2

Nicely presented. Good luck.

Thanks.


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## Parashuram1

> and you think Taliban are violent and oppressive? Wait till you go to this link:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/677417-post213.html



I have seen the link myself and thank you for reminding me about it. So you plan to take isolated incidents of individual damage as an excuse to re-install a terrorist regime that conducted routine horrors against its population and also supporting terrorists from world around? Warzones are hotspots of every possible forms of violence and it is a well-known fact. Apart from possibly considering the half-baked and illogical conspiracy theories flying around in this forum, there is no reason for ISAF to stay in Afghanistan other than stabilize the country and ensure that it doesn't become a haven to all fundamentalist terrorist organizations.

If you are going to say that ISAF is here for strategic reasons, I would agree partially with you because nothing comes for free. Fighting Taliban apart from protecting the Afghans is an act of protecting a host of countries in South and West Asia that would suffer greatly from the lunacy that Taliban consider as "just" law. And in order to do this, resources are needed to compensate the losses that are being made in the events of a war.

As I had earlier said in one post, during wars such dirty things do happen and this is very unfortunate and bad. For this, those individuals must be punished which they are. I would like to see a Taliban local leader accept the guilt from allegations of the local population honestly. You don't go blaming the entire country to be responsible what one or two cheap-mentality soldiers have done to embarrass their countries

The thing here is that while most Afghans are not very pleased with the current government, they are seeing a potential for development of their country which is why majority are supportive. Plus, in such a chaotic environment, even the words of this poor innocent woman are doubtful as she might have been threatened by Taliban to speak against the ISAF at gunpoint. If you call the other people's proofs as untruthful words, how can you believe this claim which is also after all a set of words? This is called selective blindness.

My statements on this thread and many other, have the backing and valid claims from not just NATO (mind you, Switzerland is not a part of NATO or any military alliance.. we are neutral) but also from official policies of militarily non-involved countries like Iran, CIS, Russia, China and India which makes substantial enough evidence for all other countries to believe. It is not possible for such diverse set of countries to think in the same line until there is genuinely a problem, which there is BIG TIME.

From what impression you and your Fundamentalist pal have given here, you want Afghanistan to be your strategic base and backyard for God-knows-what, without giving a damn to an Afghan's words here.


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## Thomas

Here is one example of why the Taliban will lose. Disgusting how they like to use children to carry out their nefarious tactics.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\02\18\story_18-2-2010_pg12_4



*TTP man held; was in city to train 270 teenage girls as suicide bombers*

*KARACHI*: The Crime Investigation Department on Wednesday claimed to have arrested a Taliban commander who was in the city to train 270 teenage girls as suicide bombers. As per CID officials, Abdullah alias Abu Waqas - a Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan commander for Bajaur&#8217;s Naimatullah group - was arrested near Safoora Goth Chowrangi in Karachi where, according to the accused, he had arrived to visit the members of his underground group. In a raid on a tip-off, a CID team arrested the TTP commander and recovered a loaded TT pistol, jihadi literature and CDs from his possession.

As per the officials, the TTP man had revealed that he had to train 270 teenage girls aged between 13 and 16 for suicide attacks. He also confessed that he had been involved in various terrorism activities in his hometown including targeting security forces and check-posts, and girls&#8217; schools, the officials added. staff report

Here is another reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Thor#Exposing_Taliban_Pornography_Ring

*Exposing Taliban Pornography Ring*

In January of 2010, Brad broke the story of the murder and pornography ring being run in Pakistan and Afghanistan by the Taliban's Haqqani network. Through his sources, he was able to secure a video showing the forced sexual assault of young Pashtun women by members of the Haqqani family. The pornography ring centered around Sirajuddin Haqqani's doctor, Hassan Duraz, who was sent throughout the AfPak theater to offer medical care to those villages willing to contribute young Muslim men to fight for the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Dr. Duraz was accomanied on these trips by Siraj Haqqani's uncle, Ibrahim and Haqqani's cousin, Ishak.

When word of the Haqqani pornography ring leaked, Siraj Haqqani had his doctor, as well as the girls who had been raped and sexually assaulted in the videos, killed. He also attempted to destroy all of the remaining evidence, but several of the tapes were salvaged and smuggled out by mid-level Taliban commanders disenchanted with the Haqqani family's hypocrisy.

The Haqqani network is known as the "backbone" of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and have been responsible for many of the deadliest and most audacious attacks in the region including the Camp Chapman attack, the 2008 Kabul Serena Hotel attack, and the Kidnapping of David Rohde.

Brad's thriller, The Apostle is based in part upon the Haqqani family and their terror network.

****I won't post the link for the Video. But it can be found through a Google search. Even though some of it is blacked out. I believe it would still be to indecent to post.*

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## PakSher

Talibaan need to defeated at every cost. They will not progress and they will never let any body else get educated and economically successful. Allah does not want people to pray 24/7. All prophets had a profession, Moses was a shephered, Jesus was a carpenter and Mohammad was a merhcnat. Talibaan want to to pray all day, commit home sexual acts when not praying, smoke hasish and force their brand of Islam of the majority. Screw them to hell. Let the Talibaan list 10 thinks they did to benefit the population they ruled. Yes during their time, they built a telephone exchange in Kabul, but China built it, other progress zerrrrrrrrrrrrrroo.


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## S-2

*"Siraj Haqqani had ... the girls who had been raped and sexually assaulted in the videos, killed..."*

Very, very sad. FATA has been devastated by these men and the murders of the tribal maliks is only the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks.


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## waraich66

Parashuram1 said:


> It is very disturbing to see the level of happiness Silent Ninja and Fundamentalist show towards the Taliban's violent and uncivilized methods of oppressive ruling. And for those of you who are relying on the "Soviet got defeated by the Taliban mujahideens" was 50&#37; because the Mujahideen had total support of more than 25 NATO countries against 1 Soviet Union. Though I am not a fan of Communism and dislike their cold methods, being neutral I would say that Soviets fought valiantly. It was unexpected for United States to fall in the same well that it had seen Soviet Union fall into.
> 
> Today the case is different. Except for maybe a handful of Pakistanis (majority of your countrymen hate the Taliban and have expressed in clear words) like you, Taliban has no support; not even from the Arab states. The only financial support is through rogue channels managed by fanatic supporters in government misappropriating national wealth, versus the might of 30 countries and the political support of more than 50.
> 
> Remember that even though Americans, Iranians, Russians, Indians and Chinese are all separate countries none of them militarily aligned to the other (with former two on a collision course) even these countries are against the thought of Taliban ever rising. So even arch-rivals and estranged countries have united against Taliban and this shows that except for fundamentalists like some of you, the entire world including the people of your country and your government support the efforts against these terrorists. Let me tell you why each of these countries have same interest despite different political ideologies.
> 
> 1) *United States/NATO*: To quell fundamentalist terrorism and avoiding any future attacks on its soil.
> 
> 2) *Iranians*: Sensitive to Shiite cause and to avoid any further massacres of Shiite Muslims in future.
> 
> 3) *Russians*: Vital stakes in Central Asia (CIS countries) at threat from Islamist fundamentalism and a threat to their area of influence. Also Taliban may offer refuge to terrorists operating in Chechen areas of Russian Federation. Even vengeance can be a possibility. Russians are well-known for punishing those who attack them.
> 
> 4)* Indians:* Wary about their potential access to Central Asia and after the haven provided by Talibans to the Indian Airlines hijackers, an idea of how many terrorists against Indian government can Taliban help and wreak havoc in South Asia.
> 
> 5) *Chinese:* To quell Islamist fundamentalism and the uprising of potential terrorism in their own country, which out of unwarranted emotions might be supported by Taliban and their AQ allies. Please refer to the threat of Al-Qaeda to bomb Chinese cities.
> 
> So you see, the so-called "invincible" Taliban has only support of individual fundamentalists and religious fascists who are themselves living in luxury with all modern facilities in democratic countries but continue to blindly support a terrorist organization who claims to be the savior of Islam even after massacring innocent fellow-Muslims in Afghanistan.



You forget the devine support , average mind can judge that , why after lot of opposition and 40+ nations support ISAF is badly failing ?????????

NATO cammanders admitted this fact that talaban can not be defeated .

Do you think those people had first hand experience are fool and you are the only vissionary 

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ost-initiative-against-taliban_100292578.html

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## Icarus

> clearly Taliban are gaining support!



PROVE IT.....................get me a survey, a report, any evidence will suffice...............

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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> and you think Taliban are violent and oppressive? Wait till you go to this link:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/677417-post213.html



UN confirms Taliban massacre of ethnic minority




ISLAMABAD, Sept 11,1998 (AFP) - The United Nations here Friday said Afghanistan's Taliban militia massacred thousands of ethnic-Hazara people when they seized the opposition stronghold of Mazar-i-Sharif last month.


Amnesty International had alleged the Taliban massacred thousands of the minority Hazara comunity in the days following their capture of the northern Afghan city on August 8.


The Taliban rejected the Amnesty report. 





Taliban killed 4,000 in ethnic cleansing drive
By Ahmed Rashid in Islamabad
Electronic Telegraph, September 10,1998, Issue 1203
BETWEEN 4,000 and 6,000 Afghan Hazaras - three times more than recent Amnesty International estimates - were massacred by the Taliban when they captured areas of northern Afghanistan last month, according to diplomats.

The envoys described the killings as a deliberate campaign of ethnic cleansing by the Islamic fundamentalist militia. Diplomats, United Nations officials and aid workers say thousands of Hazaras, mostly males, were killed in front of their families in Mazar-i-Sharif, capital of the anti-Taliban alliance in northern Afghanistan, when the Taliban captured the city last month.

A senior diplomat who has interviewed dozens of Hazara families said: "Young men over 16 were brought out of their houses into the streets and had their throats slit in a ritualistic killing. Younger boys had both hands chopped off at the wrist."

An aid worker said Hazara bodies were left in the streets for days, and people trying to escape from the city were shot. The aid worker said: "They were mutilating children and telling them, 'You will never fight us again'."

The Hazaras, a Mongol people who form some 15 per cent of the country's 18 million population, have resisted Taliban offensives for the past four years from their strongholds in the Hindu Kush mountains.

The Hazaras are Shia Muslims, whom the Sunni Taliban loathe. Iran, which is predominantly Shia, has used the massacre issue as a reasons to mobilise 70,000 troops on the Iran-Afghanistan border.

Last week, Amnesty International released a report saying that thousands of Hazaras were killed in Mazar. But aid workers and diplomats who left the city after the Taliban takeover and have met Hazaras who escaped, say the number of dead could be much higher.

UN confirms Taliban massacre of ethnic minority

This report documents two massacres committed by Taliban forces in the central highlands of Afghanistan, in January 2001and May 2000. In both cases the victims were primarily Hazaras, a Shia Muslim ethnic group that has been the target of previous massacres and other serious human rights violations by Taliban forces. These massacres took place in the context of the six-year war between the Taliban and parties now grouped in the United National Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan (the 'United Front'), in which international human rights and humanitarian law have been repeatedly violated by the warring factions. Ethnic and religious minorities, and the Hazaras in particular, have been especially vulnerable in areas of conflict, and Taliban forces have committed large-scale abuses against Hazara civilians with impunity. In this report Human Rights Watch calls upon the United Nations to investigate both massacres and to systematically monitor human rights and humanitarian law violations by all parties to Afghanistan's civil war.

UNHCR | Refworld | Afghanistan: Massacres of Hazaras in Afghanistan

Taleban kill Afghanistan reporter 

Ajmal Naqshbandi worked as a guide for visiting reporters 
The Taleban in Afghanistan have killed an Afghan reporter abducted last month with an Italian journalist. 
The group said it had killed Ajmal Naqshbandi because the government had refused to meet its demands to release senior figures from prison. 

Italian reporter Daniele Mastrogiacomo was released after five Taleban members were freed in exchange. The driver, Sayed Agha, was beheaded last month. 

Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi has condemned Mr Naqshbandi's killing. 

The two reporters and their driver were captured on 6 March in Helmand province. 

Shohaabuddin Atal, a spokesman for Taleban commander Mullah Dadullah, said: "We killed Ajmal today because the government did not respond to our demands." 

Italian deal 

The Afghan government's intelligence services spokesman, Saeed Ansari, confirmed Mr Naqshbandi had been killed. 


Mr Mastrogiacomo was freed in an exchange with Taleban prisoners 

Tom Koenigs, UN special envoy to Afghanistan, said: "I condemn this senseless murder unreservedly and call on the authorities to bring those responsible to justice." 

In Italy, Mr Prodi said he "learned with anguish" of Mr Naqshbandi's death. "We strongly condemn this absurd crime," he said. 

Ajmal Naqshbandi worked as a guide and translator for visiting foreign reporters. 

He was abducted with Mr Mastrogiacomo and their driver at a Taleban checkpoint and originally accused of spying for the British army. 

The reporters' driver was beheaded to put pressure on negotiations for their release. 

The BBC's Mark Dummett in Kabul says after intense lobbying from the Italians, a deal was done. Five Taleban were allowed to go and Mr Mastrogiacomo was set free. 

Our correspondent says there was outrage in Afghanistan that the government would firstly bow to its enemy's demands and secondly that it would save a foreigner but not an Afghan. 

The Taleban are still holding five government medics and two French aid workers along with three Afghan colleagues. Their fate will be decided next, they say. 

President Hamid Karzai has ruled out any more hostage deals with the Taleban. 

"[Mr Mastrogiacomo] was an extraordinary situation and won't be repeated again," Mr Karzai said on Friday. "No more deals with no-one and with no other country." 

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Taleban kill Afghanistan reporter

This was a handfull of their atrocities, they have done similar things in other provinces as well to the other people.

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## Icarus

> BTW, what kind of human being would forget about the death of their family members and take money from those who killed them?



Atleast they are given some thing to try and reduce the suffering of the family, by supporting them, it is ensured that they will never be dependant on anyone, but do the taliban offer any form of compensation to the victims of their bomb blasts ? Last time I checked, they didn't.......................They don't care if the people they kill are their own countrymen......scratch that...............their own family, as long as the body count is high............


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## DaRk WaVe

SilentNinja said:


> I didn't know you were being sarcastic, Sarcasm isn't allowed, read forum rules:
> 
> *"Sarcastic posts
> We do not allow people to post sarcastic post at all. They are a very pathetic way in the end to back things up. They will be deleted on sight."*
> 
> Did you even read forum rules before joining defence.pk?



are you telling this to ME, 
there is a rule for 'personal attack' as well
do read your own posts as well ok



> No, it was different, very different! In fact TTP were forcing girls into marriage with their men, but Afghan Taliban never did that!


I know you are going to reject it as propaganda



> Many families were reportedly forced to marry off their daughters to members of the Taliban. Taliban members abducted countless women and ...
> Independent Lens . AFGHANISTAN UNVEILED . Afghan Women's Rights | PBS





> I can prove you wrong many times, but your ignorance doesn't want to to believe, but one day you will have to face reality
> 
> 
> 
> 
> same applies on you, ain't eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, their not, its just western propaganda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so now who was saying this,_your ignorance doesn't want to to believe_
> when same western sources report bad about Taliban they are bad but once they say something slightly good they are all right
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nice try, but i already know ground reality, no need to bring in propaganda posts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ranting again, are you tied to some insurgent teams??
> every thing provided by me is propaganda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Taliban evil is greater then ISAF evil (according to you)!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> how many times i have repeat, _My evil is not smaller than yours, EVIL IS EVIL_, your ognorace don't want you to believe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Said who, RAWA? CNN? BBC? Fox News? MSNBC? NY times? Did any of these channels (propaganda channels who cover up American atrocities committed in Muslims countries) tell you this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hope this ain't propaganda
> 
> BBC NEWS | Middle East | US soldier guilty of Iraq murder
> 
> BBC NEWS | Americas | US ex-soldier guilty of Iraq rape
> 
> Steve Green : U.S. soldier sentenced to life in Iraq murder case - Nachrichten English-News - WELT ONLINE
> 
> Iraq: US Soldier Convicted Of 2007 Murder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, Taliban "evil" (that's if they did evil) is much much less than American, NATO, indian, and israeli evil!
> 
> Like i said, if had control of world media i would also broadcast propaganda against America, israel, and india NATO 24/7!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> at least you agree Taliban is evil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't make sense in your above post, if someone brakes into your house and rapes your mom or sister, would you start picking up a book and educating yourself? or would you pick up a gun and defend your god given right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never ever brought in Iraq, I was talking about the importance of political process & Education in Afgh, & from no where you brought in Iraq, we can have a thread on Iraq, We are here talking about Afgh not IRAQ
> 
> PS: many of big fishes are going down & great thing is they are talking in custody of Pakistani Agencies
Click to expand...

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## Desert Fox

EmO GiRl said:


> I know you are going to reject it as propaganda



It is propaganda! More than half the things they show is lies!







EmO GiRl said:


> same applies on you, ain't eh?



No it doesn't, the biggest proof is the ground reality, NATO, America are losing! Stanley McChrystal (spelling?) said Taliban have upper hand because they have support of the people!

Operation Moshtarak is a complete failure, Taliban will recover!





EmO GiRl said:


> so now who was saying this,_your ignorance doesn't want to to believe_



I was saying it and i was right when i said it! Like i said before, ground reality is different, Taliban will never be defeated no matter what BBC, RAWA, CNN, or Fox News says



EmO GiRl said:


> when same western sources report bad about Taliban they are bad but once they say something *slightly good* they are all right



They said something good about Taliban? 





EmO GiRl said:


> ranting again, are you tied to some insurgent teams??



No, i'm not, and your telling me about "personal attacks"?



EmO GiRl said:


> every thing provided by me is propaganda



Yes it is.





EmO GiRl said:


> how many times i have repeat, _My evil is not smaller than yours, EVIL IS EVIL_, your ognorace don't want you to believe



I'm not ignorant, i just know the reality, the reality that you fail to understand!





EmO GiRl said:


> I hope this ain't propaganda
> 
> BBC NEWS | Middle East | US soldier guilty of Iraq murder
> 
> BBC NEWS | Americas | US ex-soldier guilty of Iraq rape
> 
> Steve Green : U.S. soldier sentenced to life in Iraq murder case - Nachrichten English-News - WELT ONLINE
> 
> Iraq: US Soldier Convicted Of 2007 Murder



The punishment they gave them was not enough, they should have been executed!

And what about all the other hundreds of Iraqi women who were raped in Abu Ghraib, and what about all those little Iraqi girls sold into child sex slavery and prostitution by Black water? These propaganda channels/sites fail to highlight the other numerous atrocities committed by western "civilized" armies against Muslims!





EmO GiRl said:


> at least you agree Taliban is evil



Yeah, they made some mistakes because after all their not angels! But compare their mistakes to crimes committed by western "civilized" nations and you'll see big difference!





EmO GiRl said:


> I never ever brought in Iraq, I was talking about the importance of political process & Education in Afgh, & from no where you brought in Iraq, we can have a thread on Iraq, We are here talking about Afgh not IRAQ



You said MUSLIMS shouldn't use guns, so basically you were talking about Muslims as a whole which includes Iraq and other Muslim countries that are resisting occupiers! 

Seriously, do you even know what your talking about? And you say i rant?  shows your hypocrisy.



EmO GiRl said:


> PS: many of big fishes are going down & great thing is they are talking in custody of Pakistani Agencies



Mullah Baradar was given up by Afghan Taliban and Mullah Omar because he wanted negotiations with the Americans, and we all know Taliban's log term stand is that they will not negotiate unless all foreign entities have left the country! American tired to play a game with Taliban by trying to split the movement by bribing Mullah Baradar and weakening Mullah Omar, but Mullah Omar and other senior commanders aren't that stupid like the American consider them! Mullah Omar gave away Mullah Baradars location to Americans and Americans captured him in Karachi! For Americans this was a way to show the whole world that they are making progress, but in reality they only captured a traitor in the ranks of Taliban, and instead this benefited Taliban, not ISAF! 

National Review: Realities Of The Taliban Capture : NPR

Like i said a thousand times, you can not defeat Taliban no matter what! And not only am i saying this but so is "Colonel Imam" in the article on the first page of this thread! Talibs aint stupid


And this isn't the first time Taliban movement lost a big commander! You might remember Mullah Dadullah. He was known as the most feared Taliban commander in Afghanistan, he was later "killed" by NATO (some say Afghan Taliban themselves killed him), and his death had no impact on Taliban movement! In fact, as you have seen in recent years, Taliban have gained more momentum and strength!


There's a saying *"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger"*.

The former Soviet army Generals and red army veterans are probably laughing when they see this "operation Moshtarak" that these American are making a big deal out of! Their probably like "been there, done that"! You see, what the Americans are doing now was already done and tried by the Russians!

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## Desert Fox

Kakgeta said:


> PROVE IT.....................get me a survey, a report, *any evidence will suffice*...............



Alright, you better keep your word, don't start ranting "oh that's not enough", or "that doesn't prove anything"! Like i said, i can prove you wrong a thousand times but your ignorance won't let you believe!

And the biggest proof is in front of you!!!! What world do you live in?

Taliban have gained more support and strength!

Report: Taliban Gaining Strength In Afghanistan : NPR

Taliban gaining strength in Afghanistan: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

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## Desert Fox

Parashuram1 said:


> I have seen the link myself and thank you for reminding me about it. So you plan to take isolated incidents of individual damage as an excuse to re-install a terrorist regime that conducted routine horrors against its population and also supporting terrorists from world around? Warzones are hotspots of every possible forms of violence and it is a well-known fact. Apart from possibly considering the half-baked and illogical conspiracy theories flying around in this forum, there is no reason for ISAF to stay in Afghanistan other than stabilize the country and ensure that it doesn't become a haven to all fundamentalist terrorist organizations.
> 
> If you are going to say that ISAF is here for strategic reasons, I would agree partially with you because nothing comes for free. Fighting Taliban apart from protecting the Afghans is an act of protecting a host of countries in South and West Asia that would suffer greatly from the lunacy that Taliban consider as "just" law. And in order to do this, resources are needed to compensate the losses that are being made in the events of a war.
> 
> As I had earlier said in one post, during wars such dirty things do happen and this is very unfortunate and bad. For this, those individuals must be punished which they are. I would like to see a Taliban local leader accept the guilt from allegations of the local population honestly. *You don't go blaming the entire country to be responsible what one or two cheap-mentality soldiers have done to embarrass their countries
> *



I never said anything against an entire nation, Americans are cool people!



Parashuram1 said:


> The thing here is that while most Afghans are not very pleased with the current government, they are seeing a potential for development of their country which is why majority are supportive. Plus, in such a chaotic environment, even the words of this poor innocent woman are doubtful as she might have been threatened by Taliban to speak against the ISAF at gunpoint. If you call the other people's proofs as untruthful words, how can you believe this claim which is also after all a set of words? This is called selective blindness.
> 
> My statements on this thread and many other, have the backing and valid claims from not just NATO (mind you, Switzerland is not a part of NATO or any military alliance.. we are neutral) but also from official policies of militarily non-involved countries like Iran, CIS, Russia, China and India which makes substantial enough evidence for all other countries to believe. It is not possible for such diverse set of countries to think in the same line until there is genuinely a problem, which there is BIG TIME.
> 
> From what impression you and your Fundamentalist pal have given here, you want Afghanistan to be your strategic base and backyard for God-knows-what, without giving a damn to an Afghan's words here.



what about America and how they systematically removed all Natives from their lands? And all those millions of Native American killed and massacred, wasn't that a genocide? And now those poor people are a minority and live in reserves as if they are some Animals in a Zoo? 

Keep posting nonsense and i'll be happy to refute/counter you

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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> Alright, you better keep your word, don't start ranting "oh that's not enough", or "that doesn't prove anything"! Like i said, i can prove you wrong a thousand times but your ignorance won't let you believe!
> 
> And the biggest proof is in front of you!!!! What world do you live in?
> 
> Taliban have gained more support and strength!
> 
> Report: Taliban Gaining Strength In Afghanistan : NPR
> 
> Taliban gaining strength in Afghanistan: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)















BBC News - Afghans more optimistic for future, survey shows

The links you provided are for 2008, although there is no doubt the Taliban have gained strenght, but gaining strenght is not equal to being popular. According to a BBC poll people of Afghanistan are more optimistic and have more trust their president, having said that they think the taliban are least popular in Afghanistan. Only 6% of people of AFghanistan are in favour of the Taliban. Here is the report:



Most Afghans are increasingly optimistic about the state of their country, a poll commissioned by the BBC, ABC News and Germany's ARD shows.

Of more than 1,500 Afghans questioned, 70% said they believed Afghanistan was going in the right direction - a big jump from 40% a year ago.

Of those questioned, 68% now back the presence of US troops in Afghanistan, compared with 63% a year ago.

For Nato troops, including UK forces, support has risen from 59% to 62%.


READ THE FULL REPORT
Poll of Afghan opinion, 11-23 December 2009 [779 KB]
Most computers will open this document automatically, but you may need Adobe Reader
Download the reader here

Send us your comments
Afghans react to the poll

The survey was conducted in all of the country's 34 provinces in December 2009.

In 2009 only 51% of those surveyed had expected improvement and 13% thought conditions would deteriorate.

But in the latest survey 71% said they were optimistic about the situation in 12 months' time, compared with 5% who said it would be worse.

The other significant theme which emerges from the figures is growing antipathy towards the Taliban.

*Ninety per cent said they wanted their country run by the current government, compared with 6% who said they favoured a Taliban administration.*

Sixty-nine per cent believed the Taliban posed the biggest danger to the country, and 66% blamed the Taliban, al-Qaeda and foreign militants for violence in Afghanistan. 

Most Afghans appeared positive about the presence of troops from Nato and other countries stationed in Afghanistan.

The survey also asked if people thought it was good or bad that US forces entered Afghanistan in 2001 to drive out the Taliban. Of those questioned, 83% said it was either very good or mostly good. This compares with 69% for 2009.

However, more of those questioned believe troops with the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) are now worse at avoiding civilian casualties (43% worse and 24% better).

There was some ambivalence about how long Isaf forces should remain in the country - 22% said they should leave within the next 18 months, and 21% said they should stay longer than 18 months from now.

Afghans appear more positive about their general living conditions and the availability of electricity, medical care and jobs compared with a year ago.

Insecurity and crime were slightly worse, they said, and freedom of movement slightly better.

Despite a presidential election last year mired in controversy over ballot rigging, 74% said they were either very satisfied or somewhat satisfied with the outcome.

Also, 72% of Afghans rated President Hamid Karzai as excellent or good - compared with 52% 12 months ago - and 60% rated the performance of the present government as good or excellent, as opposed to 10% who thought it was poor.

One of the major issues facing Afghanistan is corruption among government officials or the police.

Of those surveyed, 95% identified it as a problem; 76% said it was a big problem and 19% said they considered it a moderate problem.

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## Ahmad

I couldnt post the other details, you need to open the link.


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## Desert Fox

i don't get it, what part of "Taliban will never be defeated" don't you understand? Post as many charts and graphs as you like, your not going to change the ground reality!

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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> i don't get it, what part of "Taliban will never be defeated" don't you understand? Post as many charts and graphs as you like, your not going to change the ground reality!



I dont understand one part of it. If somebody is not popular how come they will win the war. They surely gaining strenght. But they are not popular. dont you think TTP is not strong enough? Can you say they are defeating the pakistani army? you cant have it both ways. Give arms and amunitions to a bunch of thieves they can disrupt the whole city that you wont live your life, but it doesnt mean they are wining. Wining is something and being capable of desruption and destruction is something else. Thats what both TTP and AFghani taliban can do.

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## Thomas

SilentNinja said:


> The former Soviet army Generals and red army veterans are probably laughing when they see this "operation Moshtarak" that these American are making a big deal out of! Their probably like "been there, done that"! You see, what the Americans are doing now was already done and tried by the Russians!



Please explain to me how the Taliban of today resemble the Mujaheddin of the Soviet invasion years. The Mujaheddin then numbered upwards of 140,000 operating out of almost 4000 bases. They could muster upwards of 10,000 fighters at any one time to repel major Soviet assaults. And they had far more sophisticated weaponry in large numbers then the Taliban today have. 

One thing that is true compared to the Soviet years. Like the Soviets who would always withdraw to their compounds from constant Mujaheddin assaults. The ISAF in the past has withdrawn from areas becuase of lack of troops. That is and has changed now. Marja is a good example. Once Marja is taken there will remain a ISAF and Afghan Government presence So the Taliban can not come back in to Govern. And that process will be repeated throughout Afghanistan.

Also can you explain to me why the Taliban can not muster the amount of fighters like the Soviet invasion years? Could it be becuase they do not enjoy the amount of support you would like people to think?


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## Desert Fox

Thomas said:


> *Please explain to me how the Taliban of today resemble the Mujaheddin of the Soviet invasion years.* The Mujaheddin then numbered upwards of 140,000 operating out of almost 4000 bases. They could muster upwards of 10,000 fighters at any one time to repel major Soviet assaults. And they had far more sophisticated weaponry in large numbers then the Taliban today have.



Dude, you don't make sense here! Your acting like the Mujahideen back then were a different race and the Taliban of today are Aliens from outer space! Just because today they appose your interests in the region doesn't make them "different"! 

The same Jallaludin Haqani whom your president Reagan invited to Washington, the Same Gulbudin Heckmatyar and the same Hizb-e-Islami and the same Mullah Omar who lost his right eye in combat against the Soviets!

The only difference is that back then you people called them freedom fighters, and today you call them "terrorists", "insurgents", and "religious extremists" because their your enemies now!



Thomas said:


> One thing that is true compared to the Soviet years. Like the Soviets who would always withdraw to their compounds from constant Mujaheddin assaults. The ISAF in the past has withdrawn from areas becuase of lack of troops. That is and has changed now. Marja is a good example. Once Marja is taken there will remain a ISAF and Afghan Government presence So the Taliban can not come back in to Govern. And that process will be repeated throughout Afghanistan.
> 
> Also can you explain to me why the *Taliban can not muster the amount of fighters like the Soviet invasion years?* Could it be becuase they do not enjoy the amount of support you would like people to think?



I feel really sad for you people! Taliban are in few number yet they give your generals and commanders such a headache! BTW, Taliban are in large numbers, your army and media just hide the truth fearing that the people back home will feel demoralized and your silly cause will lose support. Your media and army sugar coat things too much! If 1 American or Nato soldier is killed they'll say 25 militants have been killed! If you go on youtube you'll find many videos of American and NATO bases being overran by Taliban fighters (show's that they do have large numbers)! There was a video where a group of Taliban fighters were engaging American soldiers and shot and wounded the Americans and finally went up to them and killed them with bayonet, at the end of the video the Taliban were holding up a 20$ bill that they found from the Americans they killed! Like i said before, ground reality is different!

And Mostarak is a joke, i can assure you this for sure! 15,000 NATO, American and Afghan forces with backup from artillery, helicopters, and armored vehicles vs 1,000 Taliban?

Its like trying to kill a fly with a sledge hammer! Seriously, who do you guys think your fooling?

Marjah isn't different from any other operation conducted by NATO, America, and Afghan forces! This one is only getting publicity!

lol, even CNN is smart enough to keep out the propaganda this time

Soviet commander: U.S. faces similar Afghan fate - CNN.com

The more troops you increase in Afghanistan, the more the war will become costly, and the more America will become in debt, and your economy will fall apart, and your countrymen will lose jobs! But the sad part is you didn't learn from the mistakes of others! I guess you don't care about your country!

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## S-2

The most salient difference between the mujahideen whom did battle against the Soviet Union and today's taliban is that the mujahideen received the support of the world's nations. Not so at all for the taliban.

Huge difference.

Thanks.

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## waraich66

S-2 said:


> The most salient difference between the mujahideen whom did battle against the Soviet Union and today's taliban is that the mujahideen received the support of the world's nations. Not so at all for the taliban.
> 
> Huge difference.
> 
> Thanks.



They dont need any support from any country ,Allah is supporting them , nine year war with ISAF without any support is enough for normal person to understand that they have devine support , their core strength is *Iman*

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## Parashuram1

> what about America and how they systematically removed all Natives from their lands? And all those millions of Native American killed and massacred, wasn't that a genocide? And now those poor people are a minority and live in reserves as if they are some Animals in a Zoo?
> 
> Keep posting nonsense and i'll be happy to refute/counter you



So you want to take a 200+ year old incident to justify the killing of innocent Afghans at the hands of Taliban? How is that even connected to Americans in first place, sonny Jim? Did today's Americans kill their indigenous population for you to settle this score with Taliban justifying American attacks on Red Indians as a means to kill and oppress innocent Afghans?

As for refuting my comments, keep doing it. This is perhaps the reason why your fellow countrymen are suffering.. because people like you waste your time here meaninglessly countering valid and proven facts instead of accepting the reality and moving on. Are you actually living in Pakistan? Have you lost your family member at the hands of your own government? If not, then you don't have the right to comment on behalf of Afghanistan.

Past history has shown that you argue only for the sake of arguing and no substance at all. To you and that Fundamentalist, this seems like a debate contest and not any concern of what is happening to your neighbourhood. 

You seem to believe Gen. McChrystal's words on Taliban gaining grounds in Afghanistan but the same words when said that Talibans are weakening in another press report, you deny it. This is called selective blindness and basically choosing what you feel is convenient for you. Suit yourself if you think that these savage terrorists are even going to win against the forces of good.

ISAF might be very weak by the time it pulls out but they would eventually emerge victorious. Why? Because the entire civilized world stand in support of their action, including their former and present political rivals (read here as Russia and China). Why this support because no one wants a fundamentalist bunch of perverted lunatics of some alien faith or culture creating havoc in one's country, especially if that country shares a region with the 'infected' zone.

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## Parashuram1

> They dont need any support from any country ,Allah is supporting them , nine year war with ISAF without any support is enough for normal person to understand that they have devine support , their core strength is Iman



Do you actually believe this nonsense of "Divine Army"? Man.. in the case you are accusing God of being partial. To Him, you(Taliban and supporters) are technically the same as the Americans. If He is taking into accounts the sin of Americans what they did as old as 200+ years back as your pal Silent Ninja says, then God would also be taking into account the atrocities that you lot might have committed upon someone else since an equal amount of time till date. And this Neutrality of God becomes one sided as the other side piles up sins and crimes; which is why the better side gets lesser punishment. 

That's the beauty of Nature; it is perfectly, and totally neutral.

You actually think that Taliban is winning? Even if hypothetically it wins, winning for what? Thousands of its own citizens it has been the cause of killing, the country has turned into a nightmare for any sane person to stay there. No medical facilities, no roads, railways, no aviation industry, no government benefits, no schools, no colleges, no cultural events, NOTHING!!

What is the use of such victory? with ISAF winning, Afghans have a hope of getting at least basic infrastructural facilities and a possible 'human' life. And who knows tomorrow Afghanistan might become like Japan and Singapore? Won't that be far far better than what Taliban could EVER do if at all any good worthy of humans? What would the Taliban rule over? Rubble? Opium? Oppressed innocent boys and tortured young girls? vast barren lands of nothing? How long would they drive those old Soviet tanks and walk around those lifeless stretches of land that they would never be able to develop?

How could you call this a will of God? You are insulting Him by such comments.


What's with your place of residence? Seems like the land of "Unbelievers" is saving your behind from Talibans. How about you live upto your words if you have even slightest bit of honor, leave the comforts of developed and civilized countries of the West and go and fight alongside the Taliban against the "sinning" Americans?

At least honor your own tenets if you cannot respect other's.

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## Parashuram1

Unity said:


> I couldnt post the other details, you need to open the link.


Don't bother. Those who live in the comforts of the same countries they curse like hypocrites, those who are not of your country will never understand your pain for your own people. To them, Taliban is nothing but a tool of their dominance over your country.

I am relieved that such hypocrites aren't even given a chance to stay in my country Switzerland.

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## DaRk WaVe

To them anything & everything posted against Taliban is propaganda, strange ain't eh? But at the same time something they post is Divine Truth, Taliban can't be defeated because they are Divine Soldiers who never committed any atrocity in their damn life, The Afghan here is not acceptable to them but their Afghan Friend is acceptable & moreover they all know 'ground situation' loool


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Hard to say

Even though without USA / NATO,

Russia, China, India and Iran still defeat Taliban very easily.

If Taliban wants to survive after withdrawal of USA / NATO, please don't challenge Russia, China, India and Iran first! Also Taliban should get rid of Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.

Very clear fact :

Russia + China + India + Iran have at least 10M soliders, 10k nuclear bombs, unlimited gunpowers!

Does Taliban think thay you will win Russia + China + India + Iran?


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## waraich66

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Hard to say
> 
> Even though without USA / NATO,
> 
> Russia, China, India and Iran still defeat Taliban very easily.
> 
> If Taliban wants to survive after withdrawal of USA / NATO, please don't challenge Russia, China, India and Iran first! Also Taliban should get rid of Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.
> 
> Very clear fact :
> 
> Russia + China + India + Iran have at least 10M soliders, 10k nuclear bombs, unlimited gunpowers!
> 
> Does Taliban think thay you will win Russia + China + India + Iran?



Did taliban attacked or declared war against these countries, they are defending their home land , which is their right.

What you will do if US attack your country ?

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## waraich66

Parashuram1 said:


> Do you actually believe this nonsense of "Divine Army"? Man.. in the case you are accusing God of being partial. To Him, you(Taliban and supporters) are technically the same as the Americans. If He is taking into accounts the sin of Americans what they did as old as 200+ years back as your pal Silent Ninja says, then God would also be taking into account the atrocities that you lot might have committed upon someone else since an equal amount of time till date. And this Neutrality of God becomes one sided as the other side piles up sins and crimes; which is why the better side gets lesser punishment.
> 
> That's the beauty of Nature; it is perfectly, and totally neutral.
> 
> You actually think that Taliban is winning? Even if hypothetically it wins, winning for what? Thousands of its own citizens it has been the cause of killing, the country has turned into a nightmare for any sane person to stay there. No medical facilities, no roads, railways, no aviation industry, no government benefits, no schools, no colleges, no cultural events, NOTHING!!
> 
> What is the use of such victory? with ISAF winning, Afghans have a hope of getting at least basic infrastructural facilities and a possible 'human' life. And who knows tomorrow Afghanistan might become like Japan and Singapore? Won't that be far far better than what Taliban could EVER do if at all any good worthy of humans? What would the Taliban rule over? Rubble? Opium? Oppressed innocent boys and tortured young girls? vast barren lands of nothing? How long would they drive those old Soviet tanks and walk around those lifeless stretches of land that they would never be able to develop?
> 
> How could you call this a will of God? You are insulting Him by such comments.
> 
> 
> What's with your place of residence? Seems like the land of "Unbelievers" is saving your behind from Talibans. How about you live upto your words if you have even slightest bit of honor, leave the comforts of developed and civilized countries of the West and go and fight alongside the Taliban against the "sinning" Americans?
> 
> At least honor your own tenets if you cannot respect other's.



You can not understand what is Iman? Can you tell me taste of apple without eating it????

You open your eyes in world of materialism ,better search little about the how man can achieved sweetness of Iman and eternal peace. 

I think Afghan nation is richest nation in the world because they are fighting for Liberty and Independence , they refused any forced occuption , they proved them self stronge nation and win respect in unbaised minds .

Atleast people are thinking what is the strength of Talaban, why ISAF with all best minds ,resources failed after nine years of long war against illiterate and weak and poor nation of world?

If you try to get answer from your brain it will not accept this logic , but if you will get Iman and see with the Eyes of Wisdom(Baserat and Aqeedat). You will definately reach to conclusion that there is one Greated Power always supporting supressed and poor people irrespect of which religion and faith they belong.

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## Ahmad

S-2 said:


> The most salient difference between the mujahideen whom did battle against the Soviet Union and today's taliban is that the mujahideen received the support of the world's nations. Not so at all for the taliban.
> 
> Huge difference.
> 
> Thanks.



Not to mention the local support. Mujahideen had support in every corner, in every village, and every house of the country no matter which ethnic group, which faith, which province etc. while the taliban dont enjoy that, the taliban are millions years away from that privillage.

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## Desert Fox

Unity said:


> Not to mention the local support. Mujahideen had support in every corner, in every village, and every house of the country no matter which ethnic group, which faith, which province etc. while the taliban dont enjoy that,* the taliban are millions years away from that privillage.*



yep, and this exactly why they have been winning for the last 9 years!

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> They dont need any support from any country ,Allah is supporting them , nine year war with ISAF without any support is enough for normal person to understand that they have devine support , their core strength is *Iman*



Dont be funny. Fighting NATO without outside support is nothing but a slander. You are talking double standard, you guys claim that the TTP cannot fight PA without outside support(indian support), but here you say the Afghaniistan's taliban do all these atrocities without support. you cant have it both ways, choose one of them.

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## Ahmad

SilentNinja said:


> yep, and this exactly why they have been winning for the last 9 years!



This is war and we yet to see who is the winner and who is the loser, tell me if the Taliban have broad support as the mujahideen.


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## Ahmad

*Dude, you don't make sense here! Your acting like the Mujahideen back then were a different race and the Taliban of today are Aliens from outer space! Just because today they appose your interests in the region doesn't make them "different"! 

The same Jallaludin Haqani whom your president Reagan invited to Washington, the Same Gulbudin Heckmatyar and the same Hizb-e-Islami and the same Mullah Omar who lost his right eye in combat against the Soviets!

The only difference is that back then you people called them freedom fighters, and today you call them "terrorists", "insurgents", and "religious extremists" because their your enemies now!*

This is called self interest. Yes americans are condemning the Haqanis because of their interest. Doesnt Pakistan do the same thing? It is proxy war, America is having interest in it and so do Pakistan and others, what is the difference then? can you tell me? If you have a tiny bit of Rahim(mercy) to Afghan poeple, you'll speak in favour of peace and security, but you are here promoting violance. Do you remember the Mujahideen who fought against the Soviets? hope you havent forgotten them. They were once the Mujahideen being trained by Pakistan, they were heros back then but now they have become Northern Allience and warlords according to Pakistan, because they are not serving pakistan's interest anymore !!! Tell me what is the difference between the stance of americans and pakistanis? Isnt it a proxy war for both of them who want to win? and isnt it only and only the afghans who are suffering? Please dont pretend that you care about afghanistan and its people, it is nothing but a big fat lie.


*
I feel really sad for you people! Taliban are in few number yet they give your generals and commanders such a headache! BTW, Taliban are in large numbers*

Look at these videos and see some of the taliban soldiers:


















*
And Mostarak is a joke, i can assure you this for sure! 15,000 NATO, American and Afghan forces with backup from artillery, helicopters, and armored vehicles vs 1,000 Taliban?*

Hope you know just a little bit about military, i am not military man but at least i know that if you want to capture a place from your enemy, you need to have many times more troops than your oponent to secced.

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## S-2

*"And Mostarak is a joke, i can assure you this for sure! 15,000 NATO, American and Afghan forces with backup from artillery, helicopters, and armored vehicles vs 1,000 Taliban?"*

Who said war is about a fair fight? The idea is to squash them like the centipedes they are.

Counter-insurgency is about DOMINATING the ground you stand upon and all that you survey...like the master of a ship.

They are welcome to crawl on their knees in front of the locals and SURRENDER-or die. We don't really care. Either works.

Thanks.


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## karan.1970

S-2 said:


> *"And Mostarak is a joke, i can assure you this for sure! 15,000 NATO, American and Afghan forces with backup from artillery, helicopters, and armored vehicles vs 1,000 Taliban?"*
> 
> Who said war is about a fair fight? The idea is to squash them like the centipedes they are.



So true.. A good general makes a fight as unfair as possible..Its not about the thrill of fighiting.. Its about winning with least casualties on your side..


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> They dont need any support from any country ,Allah is supporting them , nine year war with ISAF without any support is enough for normal person to understand that they have devine support , their core strength is *Iman*



Devine support ? More like barging into homes and demanding financial support.


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Did taliban attacked or declared war against these countries, they are defending their home land , which is their right.
> 
> What you will do if US attack your country ?



The Taliban themselves were holding the Afghan population hostage, might as well be the kind invader rather than the cruel ruler.............


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> You can not understand what is Iman? Can you tell me taste of apple without eating it????
> 
> You open your eyes in world of materialism ,better search little about the how man can achieved sweetness of Iman and eternal peace.
> 
> I think Afghan nation is richest nation in the world because they are fighting for Liberty and Independence , they refused any forced occuption , they proved them self stronge nation and win respect in unbaised minds .
> 
> Atleast people are thinking what is the strength of Talaban, why ISAF with all best minds ,resources failed after nine years of long war against illiterate and weak and poor nation of world?
> 
> If you try to get answer from your brain it will not accept this logic , but if you will get Iman and see with the Eyes of Wisdom(Baserat and Aqeedat). You will definately reach to conclusion that there is one Greated Power always supporting supressed and poor people irrespect of which religion and faith they belong.



Don't be too kind and shower praises on the Afghan people like that, might i remind you, they have rejected the oppressive regime of the Taliban like every1 else................

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## Icarus

Simply, it's a fight that they cannot win, all logic dictates that they won't.
1) No public support
2) No way to acquire new weapons/ammo, their resrves will run out eventually.
3) They will run out of people but behind ANA, PA and ISAF stand populations of millions eager to replace each fallen comrade.

How can they win ?

P.S: Please don't drag religion back into the discussion here, last time i checked, it was Pakistan Defence Forums not Pakistan Religious Forums.
BTW, it is worth noting that the ANA guys are also muslims...........

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> Simply, it's a fight that they cannot win, all logic dictates that they won't.
> 1) No public support
> 2) No way to acquire new weapons/ammo, their resrves will run out eventually.
> 3) They will run out of people but behind ANA, PA and ISAF stand populations of millions eager to replace each fallen comrade.
> 
> How can they win ?
> 
> P.S: Please don't drag religion back into the discussion here, last time i checked, it was Pakistan Defence Forums not Pakistan Religious Forums.
> BTW, it is worth noting that the ANA guys are also muslims...........



Your statements 1,2,3 proved wrong in nine years of war, ISAF have watches but Talaban have time

Islam is way of life not only Religion , Iman is source of motivation of muslims for jehad against Kufar.

Can fish live without water

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Your statements 1,2,3 proved wrong in nine years of war, ISAF have watches but Talaban have time
> 
> Islam is way of life not only Religion , Iman is source of motivation of muslims for jehad against Kufar.
> 
> Can fish live without water



Your claim of divine support is a speculation, there is no way to prove it.
If you think just because they haven't been defeated in the last 9 years qualifies them as God's soldiers, then where does that put the tamil tigers, who couldn't be defeated for 26 years ??????????


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Fundamentalist said:


> Did taliban attacked or declared war against these countries, they are defending their home land , which is their right.
> 
> What you will do if US attack your country ?



Taliban gets involvement in Kashmir, Chechenya, Xinjiang and Anti-Sh&#299;'a.

Kashmir is Indo-Pakistan territory dispute (China don't want to get involvement so we don't talk further!)

But Taliban joins Al Qaeda to support East Turkistan terrorism against China and Chechenya terrorism against Russia. This is a fact!


What is the outcome if the following happens at the same times:

Russia attacks Taliban / Al Qaeda from North
China attacks Taliban / Al Qaeda from East
India attacks Taliban / Al Qaeda from South
Iran attacks Taliban / Al Qaeda from West

It is obvious that Taliban / Al Qaeda will die soon.

Arabia states and Pakistan will not help you!



If Taliban want to survive, withdrawal of US / NATO army is not the soltuion. But you also need to keep friendly with neighbouring, especially Russia, China, Iran. Also you need to give up Al Qaeda.


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## waraich66

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Taliban gets involvement in Kashmir, Chechenya, Xinjiang and Anti-Sh&#299;'a.
> 
> Kashmir is Indo-Pakistan territory dispute (China don't want to get involvement so we don't talk further!)
> 
> But Taliban joins Al Qaeda to support East Turkistan terrorism against China and Chechenya terrorism against Russia. This is a fact!
> 
> 
> What is the outcome if the following happens at the same times:
> 
> Russia attacks Taliban / Al Qaeda from North
> China attacks Taliban / Al Qaeda from East
> India attacks Taliban / Al Qaeda from South
> Iran attacks Taliban / Al Qaeda from West
> 
> It is obvious that Taliban / Al Qaeda will die soon.
> 
> Arabia states and Pakistan will not help you!
> 
> 
> 
> If Taliban want to survive, withdrawal of US / NATO army is not the soltuion. But you also need to keep friendly with neighbouring, especially Russia, China, Iran. Also you need to give up Al Qaeda.



Al Qaeda is shadow army but Talaban proved themself live and vibrant ,

There is possibility they start Gurrilla war in Russia,China and India in near future if these countries attacked them or local population wanted their style of governance and invite them .


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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> Your claim of divine support is a speculation, there is no way to prove it.
> If you think just because they haven't been defeated in the last 9 years qualifies them as God's soldiers, then where does that put the tamil tigers, who couldn't be defeated for 26 years ??????????



Tamil Tiger dont have support of Allah because they are not follower of Religion of Allah.

Islam dont allow any movements based on race ,colour and land .The cause or mission of muslim's life should be implementation of shariah law.


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## Thomas

Fundamentalist said:


> They dont need any support from any country ,Allah is supporting them , nine year war with ISAF without any support is enough for normal person to understand that they have devine support , their core strength is *Iman*




if the Taliban were divinely protected. Don't you think that all the leaders would be protected as well? Yet they are systematically being hunted down, captured, and killed.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Your statements 1,2,3 proved wrong in nine years of war, ISAF have watches but Talaban have time
> 
> Islam is way of life not only Religion , Iman is source of motivation of muslims for jehad against Kufar.
> 
> Can fish live without water



if they had iman, they wouldnt have killed innocent people during this nine years and before that, also look at them how they use children for their bad intentions.


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Tamil Tiger dont have support of Allah because they are not follower of Religion of Allah.
> 
> Islam dont allow any movements based on race ,colour and land .The cause or mission of muslim's life should be implementation of shariah law.



You sound as if God is our possession(nauzubillah) and his benefits are limited only to us, let me ask you, if a christian gets promoted to a higher post, who is behind this ? If a buddhist has a baby, who has blessed him, if a hindu narrowly avoids death, who do you think protected him ? It's God brother, and he cares for all people of all faiths without bias or prejudice, because all of us are his creation.

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## Sino-PakFriendship

Fundamentalist said:


> Al Qaeda is shadow army but Talaban proved themself live and vibrant ,
> 
> There is possibility they start Gurrilla war in Russia,China and India in near future if these countries attacked them or local population wanted their style of governance and invite them .





To play Gurrilla war,

Vietnamese army is World NO.1 and Chinese army is only World No.2, Al Qaeda and Taliban is no comparsion with both above!

Provided that Vietnamese army and Chinese army have the same number of Army. Obviously, amount of Chinese soliders overwhalmingly outnumber the amount of Vietnamese soliders.

Chinese state terrorsim can totally suppresses Al Qaeda and Taliban.


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## waraich66

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> To play Gurrilla war,
> 
> Vietnamese army is World NO.1 and Chinese army is only World No.2, Al Qaeda and Taliban is no comparsion with both above!
> 
> Provided that Vietnamese army and Chinese army have the same number of Army. Obviously, amount of Chinese soliders overwhalmingly outnumber the amount of Vietnamese soliders.
> 
> Chinese state terrorsim can totally suppresses Al Qaeda and Taliban.



If Chines muslim started Gurrilla war , they could not be defeated by Chinies army as well like Talaban.


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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> You sound as if God is our possession(nauzubillah) and his benefits are limited only to us, let me ask you, if a christian gets promoted to a higher post, who is behind this ? If a buddhist has a baby, who has blessed him, if a hindu narrowly avoids death, who do you think protected him ? It's God brother, and he cares for all people of all faiths without bias or prejudice, because all of us are his creation.




Please read Islamic history of wars , how weak muslim army defeated Roman and Persian 20 times stronger armies.

It is possible only with devine power


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> if they had iman, they wouldnt have killed innocent people during this nine years and before that, also look at them how they use children for their bad intentions.



If you vote to corrupt leaders , then you are not innocient , you are also partner of the crimes of your leaders.

Hence invaders and supporters of invaders should be eligible for same punishment.


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Fundamentalist said:


> If Chines muslim started Gurrilla war , they could not be defeated by Chinies army as well like Talaban.




We are East Asia and NOT Middle East.

Most of Chinese Muslim are secular. 

Hui? No difference from Han Chinese in appearance and languages!

Uyghur? Except East Turkistan terrorists, they are totally secular.

Also, real Muslim population in China is less than 3&#37;.

China don't want to be enemy of Islam, but if Islam extremists want to be enemy of China, it is definitely a disaster for your Islam extremists.

We are nothing for fear!

We played the war against invasion powers like USA, UK, Jap, India, USSR and Vietnam in the past. Finally, most of them withdraw! We don't fear Taliban and Al Qaeda!


We can easily get all intelligence about Muslim extremists from Israel.

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## footmarks

Fundamentalist said:


> Tamil Tiger dont have support of Allah because they are not follower of Religion of Allah.
> 
> Islam dont allow any movements based on race ,colour and land .*The cause or mission of muslim's life should be implementation of shariah law*.



Exactly, but on to himself, not on others. The day everyone start implementing their religious preachings unto their lives and acts without trying to force the same on to others, this world' all miseries will vanish
As for your opinion regarding the Tamil Tigers, there is absolutely no relation between God's will and Humans' acts. If god ( or Allah, or any other name we call) do exist, he/she cant subscribe to such beliefs which makes humans and this world self destructive. I am also a follower of religion of Allah, I just call it by a different name and prey in a different way.


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Please read Islamic history of wars , how weak muslim army defeated Roman and Persian 20 times stronger armies.
> 
> It is possible only with devine power



But that is the whole thing.......................Taliban are not winning, any major territorial gains you can quote ?


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## kumar_V1.0

Marines corner Taliban holdouts in Afghan town

By ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU, Associated Press Writer Alfred De Montesquiou, Associated Press Writer &#8211; 24 mins ago

MARJAH, Afghanistan &#8211; Marines and Afghan units converged on a dangerous western quarter of the Taliban stronghold of Marjah on Sunday, with NATO forces facing "determined resistance" as their assault on the southern town entered its second week.

Fighter jets, drones and attack helicopters hovered overhead, as Marine and Afghan companies moved on a 2-square-mile (5.2-sq. kilometer) area of the town where more than 40 insurgents have apparently holed up.

"They are squeezed," said Lt. Col. Brian Christmas, commander of 3rd Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment. "It looks like they want to stay and fight but they can always drop their weapons and slip away. That's the nature of this war."

Insurgents are putting up a "determined resistance" in various parts of Marjah, though the overall offensive is "on track," NATO said Sunday, eight days after thousands of Afghan and international forces launched their largest joint operation since the Taliban regime's ouster in 2001.

Late last week, Maj. Gen. Nick Carter, head of NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, said he believed it would take at least 30 days to complete securing the Nad Ali district and Marjah in Helmand province, a hub for a lucrative opium trade that profits militants.

The Marjah operation is a major test of a new NATO strategy that stresses protecting civilians over routing insurgents as quickly as possible. It's also the first major ground operation since President Barack Obama ordered 30,000 reinforcements to Afghanistan to curb the rise of the Taliban.

Once the town is secure, NATO plans to rush in a civilian Afghan administration, restore public services and pour in aid to try to win the loyalty of the population and prevent the Taliban from returning.

Twelve NATO troops and one Afghan soldier have died so far in the offensive. Senior Marine officers say intelligence reports suggest more than 120 insurgents have died.

NATO reported two more service member deaths suffered on Saturday &#8212; one by rocket or mortar fire in eastern Afghanistan and another in a bombing in southern Afghanistan. Neither was related to the Marjah area fighting, NATO said Sunday without identifying the victims by nationality.

On Sunday, Afghan Defense Ministry spokesman Gen. Mohammad Zahir Azimi said that they had been more prepared for large numbers of planted bombs than for the sniper shooting and sustained firefights that have characterized the last few days of the Marjah operation.

"We predicted it would take many days. But our prediction was that the insurgency would not resist that way. Maybe they would use more mines, or roadside bombs or these things," Azimi said.

Even so, he said the operation has always been planned to last a month and noted some aspects are ahead of schedule, including the deployment of Afghan police units to the town.

He said progress through the contested areas is intentionally slow so that troops can clear bombs and take the most care possible to prevent civilian casualties as they fight the insurgents.

On Saturday, President Hamid Karzai had urged NATO to do more to protect civilians during combat operations to secure Marjah.

NATO forces have repeatedly said they want to prevent civilian casualties but acknowledged that it is not always possible. On Saturday, the alliance said its troops killed another civilian in the Marjah area, bringing the civilian death toll from the operation to at least 16.

Though NATO had made progress in reducing civilian casualties &#8212; mainly by reducing airstrikes and restricting combat rules &#8212; more needed to be done, Karzai said.

"We need to reach the point where there are no civilian casualties," he said. "Our effort and our criticism will continue until we reach that goal."

Karzai had also reached out to Taliban fighters, urging them to renounce al-Qaida and join with the government.

But the process of reconciliation and reintegration is likely to prove difficult.

On Sunday, Mohammad Jan Rasool Yar, spokesman for Zabul province, said authorities arrested 14 police in the Shar-e Safa district on Saturday who had defected to the Taliban's side last week and were found on a bus heading to Pakistan.

____

Associated Press Writer Amir Shah and Tini Tran in Kabul contributed to this report.

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## Sino-PakFriendship

If Taliban wants to survive, please don't intervene with China, Russia, Iran, India, Central Asia and Pakistan.

You cannot win the Asian ally against terrorism.

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## waraich66

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> If Taliban wants to survive, please don't intervene with China, Russia, Iran, India, Central Asia and Pakistan.
> 
> You cannot win the Asian ally against terrorism.



Tit for Tat , those supporting ISAF should be ready for revenge in case of Talaban victory.

In future Talaban Russia and China can make anti ISAF block.

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## Tiger Awan

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> China don't want to be enemy of Islam, but if Islam extremists want to be enemy of China, it is definitely a disaster for your Islam extremists.




My friend there is nothing as such ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS


These talibans are just following their leaders and what ever they dictate talibans accept it as Islam.

Islam has never gone for extremism.


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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> But that is the whole thing.......................Taliban are not winning, any major territorial gains you can quote ?



How much time ISAF need to defeat Talaban?

If ISAF fail to defeat them in nine years , then they should accept their defeat with grace like great warrior nations.

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Tit for Tat , those supporting ISAF should be ready for revenge in case of Talaban victory.
> 
> In future Talaban Russia and China can make anti ISAF block.



Who the hell are you promoting violence in Afghanistan? If I say something in favour of TTP then i will bet banned by the admin/mods. so mind your own business and let us live a peaceful life.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> How much time ISAF need to defeat Talaban?
> 
> If ISAF fail to defeat them in nine years , then they should accept their defeat with grace like great warrior nations.



PA have also not won the fight against TTP, what you say about that? what do you think how much time you need to defeat the mujahideen in paksitan?


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> If you vote to corrupt leaders , then you are not innocient , you are also partner of the crimes of your leaders.
> 
> Hence invaders and supporters of invaders should be eligible for same punishment.



and what do you think about your own corrupt gov? they are many times more professional corrupt leaders than ours!! If we go according to this stupid theory then every single person in pakistan who have voted in general elections should be executed, is that what you say? dont forget that it is you pakistanis who blame your own gov for corruption, being pupet, taking blood money etc etc etc. dont give us morality lessons. by the way, what the taliban did was killing innocetn people based on their ethnicity, religion, region and many more things, if that is what islam says then it is a different islam i believe in, my islam doesnt preach this.

You are running out of logic.

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## waraich66

Unity said:


> and what do you think about your own corrupt gov? they are many times more professional corrupt leaders than ours!! If we go according to this stupid theory then every single person in pakistan who have voted in general elections should be executed, is that what you say? dont forget that it is you pakistanis who blame your own gov for corruption, being pupet, taking blood money etc etc etc. dont give us morality lessons. by the way, what the taliban did was killing innocetn people based on their ethnicity, religion, region and many more things, if that is what islam says then it is a different islam i believe in, my islam doesnt preach this.
> 
> You are running out of logic.



I am not supporter of my government , how i am running out of logic?


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> PA have also not won the fight against TTP, what you say about that? what do you think how much time you need to defeat the mujahideen in paksitan?



TTP is defeated by PA with in few weeks , dont you know?


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> TTP is defeated by PA with in few weeks , dont you know?



I dont think they have been defeated. I dont know what you mean by defeat. They still control areas and also, they have got full capability of launching attacks in every corner of paksitan. if they lose that ability and capability then you can say they have been defeated. nowdays there are more explosions in pakistan than afghansitan.


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> Who the hell are you promoting violence in Afghanistan? If I say something in favour of TTP then i will bet banned by the admin/mods. so mind your own business and let us live a peaceful life.



ISAF uprooted legitimate government of Talaban with force , so they violated the country and international law , no compromise at any cost with thugs and invaders is possible.They have to withdraw their forces ASAP.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> I am not supporter of my government , how i am running out of logic?



YOu said those people who support corrupt leaders in afghanistan they deserve to die. i reminded you about your own gov and told you how there are similiarties, now i dont care if you voted or not, but there were milions of other pakistanis who voted for the leaders. if we apply your formulla in afghansitan on pakistanis as well, do you think all those who voted for the leaders in general election in pakistan should be killed?


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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> Did taliban attacked or declared war against these countries, they are defending their home land , which is their right.
> 
> What you will do if US attack your country ?





> Did taliban attacked or declared war against these countries, they are defending their home land , which is their right.



Please talk about the situation BEFORE ISAF entered Afghanistan. First of all, I agree that Taliban has not invaded another country. However, Taliban became notorious for sheltering terrorists of Islamist fundamentalist cause from quite a lot of countries and this made Afghanistan the breeding ground of fundamentalist terrorism. Countries as diverse as extremists of middle east, south Asia, Russia and Caucasus came and started taking shelter in the region. 

I am sure you must have heard the hijack of an airline from your neighbouring country that took place about 12 years back. The hijackers were allowed shelter and were given refuge along with forcing them to demand additional conditions from New Delhi. 

In international diplomacy, sheltering a force hostile to another country and to numerous other countries is considered the same as abetting in their crime and therefore being regarded as an equal enemy.

Therefore, kindly don't get washed away by their "patriotic claims". This is a false mindset they are promoting to win the emotional support of numerous unaware and perhaps innocent Muslims around the world who don't know what these people harbor. I believe you hate us because we are not of your race or faith.

But just because we don't share your faith and race doesn't mean that we are lying. This 'we' includes entire West plus non-NATO and democratic countries around the world. After all, so many Western countries have accepted Afghan refugees... if we all were such big conspirators, why would we allow additional foreign burden on our economies? Please think with a cool head.

While ISAF might have some selfish interest in blackening Taliban's image completely, Talibans aren't exactly angels either and on many occasions have proven NATO correct, therefore tipping the scales in the latter's favor.




> What you will do if US attack your country ?



Chinese haven't bombed and killed 3,000 people in USA. Chinese government hasn't sheltered terrorists that are considered a threat to the entire civilized world in general and neither intends to do so. Chinese condemn terrorism in such fundamentalist forms and have declared support in this initiative along with many other countries for ISAF cause. Therefore there is no reason for USA to attack China.

Don't you see it? Rival countries, regional rivals, old enemies, political competitors etc... everyone agrees on this same point and that is ouster and elimination of a threat like Taliban who are a danger to every country in Asia and by breeding more fundamentalism, a threat to all societies? Why do you think that so many countries agree from all different continents, races and cultures at one point in the UNO? 

It is not like USA can or will threaten to attack 200 countries if they don't agree with them.


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> I dont think they have been defeated. I dont know what you mean by defeat. They still control areas and also, they have got full capability of launching attacks in every corner of paksitan. if they lose that ability and capability then you can say they have been defeated. nowdays there are more explosions in pakistan than afghansitan.



GOA/RAW/MOSAD involved in supporting terrorists as Najeeb government during Russian jehad.Dont worry Pakistan and Afghan talaban will be victorious as before

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> ISAF uprooted legitimate government of Talaban with force , so they violated the country and international law , no compromise at any cost with thugs and invaders is possible.They have to withdraw their forces ASAP.



tell me how the taliban gov was legitimate? they took power on gun point. taking office in gun point cant be legitimate. if they were legitimate then the mujahideen gov and comunists were also legitimate.


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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> ISAF uprooted legitimate government of Talaban with force , so they violated the country and international law , no compromise at any cost with thugs and invaders is possible.They have to withdraw their forces ASAP.


Why don't you join them and fight the American 'invaders' then? Why sit in your comfortable house in Saudi and blab extremism?


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> GOA/RAW/MOSAD involved in supporting terrorists as Najeeb government during Russian jehad.Dont worry Pakistan and Afghan talaban will be victorious as before



Look! my post and your reply doent match. if you dont have a proper reply then you can keep quiet. i was talking about the defeat of TTP and you bring najeeb etc in the middle. If TTP gets support and so do the TAliban in afghanistan. and dont prematurely say that the TTP is defeated, you will see alot of drama in pakistan.


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## Parashuram1

Unity said:


> tell me how the taliban gov was legitimate? they took power on gun point. taking office in gun point cant be legitimate. if they were legitimate then the mujahideen gov and comunists were also legitimate.


He cannot see anything beyond the lenses of a primitive and false interpretation of faith that was created by a bunch of selfish sick-minded terrorists to fool and terrorize the world. He doesn't realize that no religion promotes hatred and barbarianism.

Perhaps he gets sadistic pleasure of seeing Afghan women needlessly being thrashed and young boys being stoned to death for "not keeping beards". Sadism is something that some people have as a disturbing and dark trait.


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Tit for Tat , those supporting ISAF should be ready for revenge in case of Talaban victory.
> 
> In future Talaban Russia and China can make anti ISAF block.



In your dreams? Russia and China hate muslim xtremist slightly more than the ISAF.

Regards


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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> GOA/RAW/MOSAD involved in supporting terrorists as Najeeb government during Russian jehad.Dont worry Pakistan and Afghan talaban will be *victorious as before*


Oh for Heaven's sake, your hatred of Jews, Americans and Hindus is seriously disgusting. Get a life, Talib.

Keep dreaming about the highlighted part sipping your tea in Saudi. It will never happen. The world will never let it happen. Maybe Talibans are angels of God to you with divine powers, but to us the rest of the world, they are uncivilized, primitive, perverted, cheap and sick-minded brutes who have no value for human freedom and life of innocent people and the Taliban are going down. 

You want to get into your government and support Taliban? First you'll get ousted by your own fellow Pakistanis who are fed up of terrorism. Good luck in your terrorism.

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> How much time ISAF need to defeat Talaban?
> 
> If ISAF fail to defeat them in nine years , then they should accept their defeat with grace like great warrior nations.



ISAF have taken their territory, won the hearts and minds of their people, disabled their network, dismantled their chain of command...........perhaps the taliban should admit defeat and come out of the mountains ?

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## waraich66

Parashuram1 said:


> Oh for Heaven's sake, your hatred of Jews, Americans and Hindus is seriously disgusting. Get a life, Talib.
> 
> Keep dreaming about the highlighted part sipping your tea in Saudi. It will never happen. The world will never let it happen. Maybe Talibans are angels of God to you with divine powers, but to us the rest of the world, they are uncivilized, primitive, perverted, cheap and sick-minded brutes who have no value for human freedom and life of innocent people and the Taliban are going down.
> 
> You want to get into your government and support Taliban? First you'll get ousted by your own fellow Pakistanis who are fed up of terrorism. Good luck in your terrorism.



No i love them as human being but hate their bloodshed in poor Afghan country

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## Icarus

Rules of engagements as highlighted by Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W):
1) Women, Children and Aged citizens not to be harmed.
2) Anyone who does not engage with you should not be harmed.
3) Buildings not to be destroyed.
4) Crops and trees not to be destroyed.
5) Women to be respected, not to be touched by any soldier.
6) PRISONERS OF WAR TO BE TREATED FAIRLY, TO BE ALLOWED FREEDOM, IF THEY CAN PURCHASE IT THEN SO OTHERWISE THROUGH SOME NEGOTIATION(as in Ghazwa-i-Badar, when prisoners were to educate 10 muslim children for a specific time to earn their freedom)
And many more but do the Taliban abide by these rules ?


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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> ISAF have taken their territory, won the hearts and minds of their people, disabled their network, dismantled their chain of command...........perhaps the taliban should admit defeat and come out of the mountains ?



Won the Hearts and minds 

joke of day

you dont know the masacare of ISAF ?

3000 Talaban POWs and quater million Afghan innocient citizens killed by desi cutters and tomo hawk missile of US NATO forces .Stiil you are supporting them , do you want to become their partner in their crime against humanity?????


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> In your dreams? Russia and China hate muslim xtremist slightly more than the ISAF.
> 
> Regards



Chinies and Russians hate imperialism and unlateralism of US , dont you know?

Enemy of enemy is my friend.

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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Won the Hearts and minds
> 
> joke of day
> 
> you dont know the masacare of ISAF ?
> 
> 3000 Talaban POWs and quater million Afghan innocient citizens killed by desi cutters and tomo hawk missile of US NATO forces .Stiil you are supporting them , do you want to become their partner in their crime against humanity?????



Is that what they teach you in talibani madrasas now days?


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Chinies and Russians hate imperialism and unlateralism of US , dont you know?
> 
> Enemy of enemy is my friend.



Thats why Taliban govt was never recognised by these countries. You such a joke.

Regards


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> Thats why Taliban govt was never recognised by these countries. You such a joke.
> 
> Regards



Pakistan ,Saudia and many muslim countries recognised them even US wanted to sign deal for oil pipe line with Mullah Omar which he refused. may be you are school boy these days.

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## waraich66

Parashuram1 said:


> Why don't you join them and fight the American 'invaders' then? Why sit in your comfortable house in Saudi and blab extremism?



Can you arrange visa for me


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Won the Hearts and minds
> 
> joke of day
> 
> you dont know the masacare of ISAF ?
> 
> 3000 Talaban POWs and quater million Afghan innocient citizens killed by desi cutters and tomo hawk missile of US NATO forces .Stiil you are supporting them , do you want to become their partner in their crime against humanity?????



link to any stats ?


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Can you arrange visa for me



A visa to afghanistan should be no problem for you, all you need is the determination, which you have shown over the past 26 pages of this discussion.

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> link to any stats ?



More evidence of US war crimes in Afghanistan: Taliban POWs suffocated inside cargo containers

Do you still support US Nato Forces ? They are not human beings but Bloody B******

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> More evidence of US war crimes in Afghanistan: Taliban POWs suffocated inside cargo containers
> 
> Do you still support US Nato Forces ? They are not human beings but Bloody B******



Brother, i doubt you can find an older link, it's a decade old !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> Brother, i doubt you can find an older link, it's a decade old !!!!!!!!!!!!



Obama Covers Up A Dozen My Lais: Were 3,000 Afghans Murdered As U.S. Troops Stood By? :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dal medio oriente :: information from middle east :: [vs-1]

OK ,see the latest

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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> More evidence of US war crimes in Afghanistan: Taliban POWs suffocated inside cargo containers
> 
> Do you still support US Nato Forces ? They are not human beings but Bloody B******



Again you and your ignorance stands exposed

READ and EDUCATE UR SELF

Journalists who had also been barred from the prison entered last Saturday and began interviewing prisoners, as well as *the Northern Alliance commander in charge. Colonel General Jurabek said 43 prisoners had died inside the containers, while another 3 died from their wounds upon arrival.* Several prisoners interviewed by the Times, however, said the number was much higher.

They were captured by ISAF and handed over to the NA who are Afghans too. Nothing to do with ISAF.

Regards


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## Icarus

> Do you still support US Nato Forces ?



Up till 2006 I had a point of view similar to yours, Taliban from Afghanistan are good whereas the homegrown variety is bad, but the mounting number of terrorist incidents and later our posting to Bajaur taught me otherwise, i saw things first hand that....even being a free lance writer, i find hard to put into words.............indescribable acts of cruelty carried out without remorse and with complete disregard for the value of human life..............My Afghan friends only cemented my new found view of the Taliban, they described the Taliban's cruelty to me so graphically that it made my heart weep and sent chills down my spine.............

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Obama Covers Up A Dozen My Lais: Were 3,000 Afghans Murdered As U.S. Troops Stood By? :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dal medio oriente :: information from middle east :: [vs-1]
> 
> OK ,see the latest



Again it's a story from 2002 and the source is hardly reliable they can't even spell "lied" right.....................


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> Again you and your ignorance stands exposed
> 
> READ and EDUCATE UR SELF
> 
> Journalists who had also been barred from the prison entered last Saturday and began interviewing prisoners, as well as *the Northern Alliance commander in charge. Colonel General Jurabek said 43 prisoners had died inside the containers, while another 3 died from their wounds upon arrival.* Several prisoners interviewed by the Times, however, said the number was much higher.
> 
> They were captured by ISAF and handed over to the NA who are Afghans too. *Nothing to do with ISAF.*
> 
> Regards


 

ISAF generals, Gen Dostam, Bush ,Blair all should be trailed in ICJ for masacare of 3000 talaban POWs for justice.

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## Icarus

And it is yet to be proven.............


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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> And it is yet to be proven.............



Then why you are supporting mass murderers?????

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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> ISAF generals, Gen Dostam, Bush ,Blair all should be trailed in ICJ for masacare of 3000 talaban POWs for justice.



Boy have you had your medication ? or does it hurt when ur lies get exposed?

Gen Dostum is from Afghanistan so nothing is going to happen.

Blair and Bush are happy where they are and your frustrated talibani bros can do nothing.

Only trials i see are that Mullah Brother scum soon in Kabul.

Regards


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> Boy have you had your medication ? or does it hurt when ur lies get exposed?
> 
> Gen Dostum is from Afghanistan so nothing is going to happen.
> 
> Blair and Bush are happy where they are and your frustrated talibani bros can do nothing.
> 
> Only trials i see are that Mullah Brother scum soon in Kabul.
> 
> Regards



I can understand your limitations.

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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> I can understand your limitations.



And I yours?


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## The Patriot

Guys pl don't argue with a brainwashed fundo. You can never talk sense to him because he is completely brainwashed and is incapable of thinking straight. His mental faculties have been damaged completely by his handlers. He doesn't have any logic, analysis, academic background and any knowledge. He will always deviate and distract thread when he doesn't have any answer, which he never gets. He will stretch it and stretch it. I think he gets some kind of sadistic pleasure in it and thinks he is doing jihad. I ignored him when i had my first draw with him and found him dumb---. But i will give him one credit, he is best at derailing threads and putting his agenda, where everyone starts arguing with him. I think he is also hungry for attention. The best way is to ignore him and continue healthy debate.

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## waraich66

The Patriot said:


> Guys pl don't argue with a brainwashed fundo. You can never talk sense to him because he is completely brainwashed and is incapable of thinking straight. His mental faculties have been damaged completely by his handlers. He doesn't have any logic, analysis, academic background and any knowledge. He will always deviate and distract thread when he doesn't have any answer, which he never gets. He will stretch it and stretch it. I think he gets some kind of sadistic pleasure in it and thinks he is doing jihad. I ignored him when i had my first draw with him and found him dumb---. But i will give him one credit, he is best at derailing threads and putting his agenda, where everyone starts arguing with him. I think he is also hungry for attention. The best way is to ignore him and continue healthy debate.



Blame game and personal attack nothing else.

Any how still if you need any help to understand the Afghan issue you are wellcome.

Remember one thing either you are at sending end or receiving end .You have no other choice to listen others if you dont any knowledge about the subject.

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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Blame game and personal attack nothing else.
> 
> Any how still if you need any help to understand the Afghan issue you are wellcome.
> 
> Remember one thing either you are at sending end or receiving end .You have no other choice to listen others if you dont any knowledge about the subject.



Learn something from you who does his jihad from behind a keyboard in saudi and not old enough to travel or get a visa compared someone who has travelled twice there?

Thanks but No thanks your offer for Afghan knowledge is appreciated but lacking in substance as always like ur posts.


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## Gazzi

People seriously need to understand what Jihad is and what context to use it in...happy bashers jumping on the bandwagon to unleash some of their venom here.

I sure think in a couple of weeks the facts on the ground will be known as to who is winning the battle of hearts and minds.........ANA needs to change it attitude, especially with corruption and sectarianism/tribalism if this is to success.....nontheless, something tells me it won't change and ISAF/coalition forces will end up getting bogged down and leaving as the strategy thus far, of using military force to get the Taliban to come ot the negotitaing table hasn;t worked.

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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> Learn something from you who does his jihad from behind a keyboard in saudi and not old enough to travel or get a visa compared someone who has travelled twice there?
> 
> Thanks but No thanks your offer for Afghan knowledge is appreciated but lacking in substance as always like ur posts.



Do you know what is meaning of jehad ? Please learn about Islam and then open your mouth to critise some one .

Critisim for sake of critism will not be beneficial to any one here , you are just wasting your time and others wanted to know point of view of both factions at war.

Thanks


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## AMERICAN WIND

As a retired U.S. service member and non-Muslim ...but one who has been active on the Pak Tribune site for four years...I can comment that the great counterfit Jihad that was laid on Islam by Osama and Aymin(later) is predicated on a flawed foundation as outlined within holy Qu'ran!

Oh...he (OBL) attempted to set the stage for what he belived would be viewed as a legit Jihad, replete with bogus FATWAS and subjegated(ideologically) Clerics...to do this he needed to draw the U.S. into the region, as well as other western powers, that's what 9/11 was all about!

Iraq, an unquallified mistake by the Bush administration was simply an added bonus for Al-Qaida!

Jihad, as referred to by the Prophet(PBUH) and within the holy Qu'ran...is most oft referred too and defined as the internal struggle that a person wages between the forces of good and evil!

When "external" Jihad is referred too...it is always with caveats that pertain to reasons and manner in which it may, and may not be waged!

"Anyone" reviewing the tactics and strategy of AQ, and like minded so called "Global Jihadi" organizations, can, if honest, easily deduce that the actions of AQ...in any theater in which they operate...are tactics and actions clearly prohibited by the tennents regarding what is allowable in waging Jihad, according to holy Qu'ran!

Now, many would state that the Taliban and AQ are not connected. Regarding the Afghani Taliban that is partially true...regarding Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan that is incorrect totally.

I would like to talk about the split between Mullah Omar and OBL and the resulting splintering of Haqqani Network from Omar's movement within Pakistan (or) the creation of TTP in 2007 by AQ and in which the Pashtoon in NWF/Waziristan and FATA were duped by AQ and then later brutalized by Baitullah(himself an AQ man)..but time does not permit today...I will return though later...promise!

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## Desert Fox

AMERICAN WIND said:


> As a retired U.S. service member and non-Muslim ...but one who has been active on the Pak Tribune site for four years...I can comment that the great counterfit Jihad that was laid on Islam by Osama and Aymin(later) is predicated on a flawed foundation as outlined within holy Qu'ran!
> 
> Oh...he (OBL) attempted to set the stage for what he belived would be viewed as a legit Jihad, replete with bogus FATWAS and subjegated(ideologically) Clerics...to do this he needed to draw the U.S. into the region, as well as other western powers, that's what 9/11 was all about!
> 
> Iraq, an unquallified mistake by the Bush administration was simply an added bonus for Al-Qaida!
> 
> Jihad, as referred to by the Prophet(PBUH) and within the holy Qu'ran...is most oft referred too and defined as the internal struggle that a person wages between the forces of good and evil!
> 
> When "external" Jihad is referred too...it is always with caveats that pertain to reasons and manner in which it may, and may not be waged!
> 
> "Anyone" reviewing the tactics and strategy of AQ, and like minded so called "Global Jihadi" organizations, can, if honest, easily deduce that the actions of AQ...in any theater in which they operate...are tactics and actions clearly prohibited by the tennents regarding what is allowable in waging Jihad, according to holy Qu'ran!
> 
> Now, many would state that the Taliban and AQ are not connected. Regarding the Afghani Taliban that is partially true...regarding Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan that is incorrect totally.
> 
> I would like to talk about the split between Mullah Omar and OBL and the resulting splintering of Haqqani Network from Omar's movement within Pakistan (or) the creation of TTP in 2007 by AQ and in which the Pashtoon in NWF/Waziristan and FATA were duped by AQ and then later brutalized by Baitullah(himself an AQ man)..but time does not permit today...I will return though later...promise!



i'm glad you understand the situation regarding AQ, even i don't like them or the TTP!

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## waraich66

AMERICAN WIND said:


> As a retired U.S. service member and non-Muslim ...but one who has been active on the Pak Tribune site for four years...I can comment that the great counterfit Jihad that was laid on Islam by Osama and Aymin(later) is predicated on a flawed foundation as outlined within holy Qu'ran!
> 
> Oh...he (OBL) attempted to set the stage for what he belived would be viewed as a legit Jihad, replete with bogus FATWAS and subjegated(ideologically) Clerics...to do this he needed to draw the U.S. into the region, as well as other western powers, that's what 9/11 was all about!
> 
> Iraq, an unquallified mistake by the Bush administration was simply an added bonus for Al-Qaida!
> 
> Jihad, as referred to by the Prophet(PBUH) and within the holy Qu'ran...is most oft referred too and defined as the internal struggle that a person wages between the forces of good and evil!
> 
> When "external" Jihad is referred too...it is always with caveats that pertain to reasons and manner in which it may, and may not be waged!
> 
> "Anyone" reviewing the tactics and strategy of AQ, and like minded so called "Global Jihadi" organizations, can, if honest, easily deduce that the actions of AQ...in any theater in which they operate...are tactics and actions clearly prohibited by the tennents regarding what is allowable in waging Jihad, according to holy Qu'ran!
> 
> Now, many would state that the Taliban and AQ are not connected. Regarding the Afghani Taliban that is partially true...regarding Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan that is incorrect totally.
> 
> I would like to talk about the split between Mullah Omar and OBL and the resulting splintering of Haqqani Network from Omar's movement within Pakistan (or) the creation of TTP in 2007 by AQ and in which the Pashtoon in NWF/Waziristan and FATA were duped by AQ and then later brutalized by Baitullah(himself an AQ man)..but time does not permit today...I will return though later...promise!



First of all wellcome to you to PDF.

Dear Sir,

Jehad is very waste term not easy to understand even by few non practicing muslims.

Major types of Jahad are

Jehad bil Nafs ( it is for your personal safety from evil forces)
Jehad Bil Mal and Jan (it is required for muslims learning and preaching to non muslims ) 
Jehad Bil Saif.(It is momentry act , allowed only if enemy attacked any muslim country or for individual self defence).


First two types of Jehad are continues 24/7 daily basis.


I agree with you that OBL interpretation about jehad is not correct , he only wanted Jehad bil saif but with wrong way , The correct method of jehad bil saif is to give three times invitation to enemy to accept Islam or peace, if they reject offer of peace and wanted war at any cost then muslims as nation must do jehad uptill any decision .

9/11 incident is shocking for whole world including muslims, if it is planned by OBL or his organisation because it mainly damaged the image of islam.


You are right that AQ and Afghan talaban are not connected , they have different agenda .

I request to you and all American please force your government to stop war in Afghanistan , all your concern about future safety of America and Europe has no link with Afghan Talabans , they will never targeted America and Europe in past or have any objective.

Real issue is to destroy breeding grounds of Al Qaeda , i am sure MO will cooperate with USA and NATO upto their desired level but if they agreed to leave Afghanistan .

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Won the Hearts and minds
> 
> joke of day
> 
> you dont know the masacare of ISAF ?
> 
> 3000 Talaban POWs and quater million Afghan innocient citizens killed by desi cutters and tomo hawk missile of US NATO forces .Stiil you are supporting them , do you want to become their partner in their crime against humanity?????



ISAF might not be wining the hearts and minds, and neither do the taliban. that is why in a surevey they ended up scoring 6&#37;, so you can imagine how popular they are.

Secondly, 25% of all the civilian casualties have been because of Nato/isaf fire power and 75% of them have been killed due to the Taliban attacks and suicide bombing. 3000 taliban were killed here and there and you and I shouldnt be worried about it, they chose that path and they got what they wanted. the main issue should be civilian casualty. Tell me where did you get that 1/4 a milion civilian casualty from?

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Pakistan ,Saudia and many muslim countries recognised them even US wanted to sign deal for oil pipe line with Mullah Omar which he refused. may be you are school boy these days.



YOu know nothing about nothing. nobody recognized the Taliban except the uae, pakistan and saudis. dont say many muslim countries recognized them.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> More evidence of US war crimes in Afghanistan: Taliban POWs suffocated inside cargo containers
> 
> Do you still support US Nato Forces ? They are not human beings but Bloody B******



It is good, i am happy they got killed. the taliban also killed their armed opponents with zero mercy, why should the talibani prisoners be spared? but the main concern is about the civilians.


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> Do you know what is meaning of jehad ? Please learn about Islam and then open your mouth to critise some one .
> 
> Critisim for sake of critism will not be beneficial to any one here , you are just wasting your time and others wanted to know point of view of both factions at war.
> 
> Thanks



Never want to learn your version or the Talibani scum version of Jihad.

I doubt most pakistanis also favor ur version of Jihad? Thats why Mullah Brother will now jihad in jail where he belongs.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> ISAF generals, Gen Dostam, Bush ,Blair all should be trailed in ICJ for masacare of 3000 talaban POWs for justice.



Here you go, what a joke. You call for trial of Dostum(he is one of those cruel guys just like your mullah omar) and others for the murder of taliban fighters, but you justify the killing of civilians in the hands of the taliban!!! what sort of joke is that?


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## Ahmad

*Blame game and personal attack nothing else.*

He was giving you the taste of your own medicine.


*
Any how still if you need any help to understand the Afghan issue you are wellcome.*

I believe everybody else knows alot about afghanistan than you.


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## AMERICAN WIND

The Taliban will never be defeated militarily alone...that's true enough...you can't defeat an insurgent military movement 100&#37; militarily...but I, at least, have every confidence that they will ultimately be defeated through a combination of political and military action coupled with significant efforts at improving the "social condition" within Afghanistan!

The Taliban are your basic run of the mill thuggish ideologues who , when in power, and since, have depended on violence and intimidation...they are no more repesentative of Islam and it's best ideals than is a Kafur trying to impose a new social order on an Islamic society!

Most Muslims and most Afghanis are fully aware of this... give Obama's new strategy a chance and remember that President Kharzie is "not" the defining word on democracy within Afghanistan...as Zardari is not within Pakistan!

Democracy, is planted and then nurtured by strengthening democratic institutions and laws..it evolves over time as we have seen within every democracy!

Jinah knew that!

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## Ahmad

Always Neutral said:


> Learn something from you who does his jihad from behind a keyboard in saudi and not old enough to travel or get a visa compared someone who has travelled twice there?
> 
> Thanks but No thanks your offer for Afghan knowledge is appreciated but lacking in substance as always like ur posts.



Canada I think.


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## Patriot

If such thing happened in Jinnah time he would order Army to literally wipe these scumbags of earth.I would not worry much about Fundamentalist..he is a cyber miguided man who wants to Join Canadian Millitary...NATO LOL.Personal interests do come over misguided interests.

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> You are right that AQ and Afghan talaban are not connected , they have different agenda .
> 
> .



Who cares if the Taliban and Al Qaeda are connected to each other or not. as an afghan, it is the cruelty of the taliban which matter to us.


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## AMERICAN WIND

PBin Laden's fabricated Jihad serves a partisan political purpose as does that of all the affiliated "Global Jihadis"...that being their political end game which is the creation of a pan-Islamic Kalipha based political model...preportedly, according to them, fabricated along the same lines as the "rightous Kalipha's" that exsisted in the wake of the Prophet's(PBUH) death!

Hizb-ut-Tahrir, also advocates for a similar system, however, vocally disavows OBL's methodolgy for attaining same...and if you listen and look carefully, you will find that , if talking to a HUT person, the conceptual design, regarding eugalitarianism, is quite different than we would expect to receive at the hands of a regime(Kalipha) headed by men such as OBL...which would make the Taliban(non-Kaliphists) seem like "cream puffs"!

In addition, OBL would pursue Global Jihad indefinately and until he and his "pac-man type of Kalipha"...had swallowed up any and all that were different than he...perpetual Jihad...only a sick mind would welcome same, or the mind of a totally outt'a touch religious fundoo!

The problems regarding the Afghan Taliban (non-Gobal Jihadi) were created by the void left after the Soviets were driven from Afghanistan and America's "abject failure" in providing suitible building blocks for Islamic democracy within Afghanistan!

Now, some Muslims...of the fundementalist school (not all by any means) would argue that democracy is at odds with Islam, I couldn;t disagree more and even the founder of the Islamic Revolution in Iran knew that much.

Although democracy has been hijacked by the Achmajinejad regime...it functioned well for a long time and the revolution's founder made sure to incorporate many democratic values and ideals into it's first constituion(for the Islamic Republic) even as he rejected calls to install a Kalipha by groups such as HUT?

Unfortunately, that successful Islamic democracy has now been effectively hijacked by hardline Mullahs and Revolutionary Guard military secularists!

Hence we see millions of Iranians taking to their rooftops at night chanting, as they did during the waning days of the Shah..."death to the dictator"!

Islam is "fully compatible with democracy"...which in fact enables an Islamic nation to magnify the finer points and qualities of Islam!

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## Thomas

Fundamentalist said:


> Can you arrange visa for me



here you go! please follow the linked instructions. I bet Silent Ninja will let you stay with him while in Pakistan since you both share such close Jihadist views. Maybe even hook you up with some Taliban Connections.  Not that you probably don't already have some. I'm sure you regularly cruise their known websites.


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## Abi

Why do some members here support the Taliban?


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## Thomas

Unity said:


> Canada I think.



Only the people here with access to his IP address could really say were he truly lives. he has a tendency to change his residence flag.


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## Ahmad

Abi said:


> Why do some members here support the Taliban?



Wish we knew brother.


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## waraich66

Thomas said:


> Only the people here with access to his IP address could really say were he truly lives. he has a tendency to change his residence flag.



Sorry to say you also involved into personal attack like other few stupid fellows just wanted to secure points through blame game and personal attack because you dont have any reason to support masacare of 3000 talaban POWs and other many innocient civilian killed by your fellow ISAF bombing .

I am happy you are now guilty concious that is reason getting help of blame game and personal attack.

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Sorry to say you also involved into personal attack like other few stupid fellows just wanted to secure points through blame game and personal attack because you dont have any reason to support masacare of 3000 talaban POWs and other many innocient civilian killed by your fellow ISAF bombing .
> 
> I am happy you are now guilty concious that is reason getting help of blame game and personal attack.



tell me what is the reason of taliban killing the civilians? and you should know that the taliban have killed their prisoners of war in their custody, nothing new in afghanistan. Do you know that the taliban used to kill civilians because they were shias? they entered the houses and took people and killed them.


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## waraich66

Patriot said:


> If such thing happened in Jinnah time he would order Army to literally wipe these scumbags of earth.I would not worry much about Fundamentalist..he is a cyber miguided man who wants to Join Canadian Millitary...NATO LOL.Personal interests do come over misguided interests.



Yup , i will join them only when they return from Afghanistan.


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> tell me what is the reason of taliban killing the civilians? and you should know that the taliban have killed their prisoners of war in their custody, nothing new in afghanistan. Do you know that the taliban used to kill civilians because they were shias? they entered the houses and took people and killed them.



Your dont know killing of POWs is crime?

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Your dont know killing of POWs is crime?



They had done the same thing to their opponents' pows, same same. so?

you are worried about the life of talib fighters but dont give a damn about the life of civilians who have got nothing to do with military. what is your answer to that?


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> dont have any reason to support masacare of 3000 talaban POWs and other many innocient civilian killed by your fellow ISAF bombing .
> 
> .



Why would you not want those 3000 guys to become martyrs? They must be with their 72 virgins by now and hopefully happy and exhausted.

The must be cheering Dostum, Blair and Bush from Hell.

Btw you still have to prove that your story was true as the prison was run by NA not ISAF and your own pathetic article states that.


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## waraich66

Unity said:


> They had done the same thing to their opponents' pows, same same. so?
> 
> you are worried about the life of talib fighters but dont give a damn about the life of civilians who have got nothing to do with military. what is your answer to that?



Your information is baised , if you can provide unbaised link about your claim, i shall appreciate.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Your information is baised , if you can provide unbaised link about your claim, i shall appreciate.



I have provided you tones of different sources about the atrocities of the taliban. if you dont accept it then i wont be able to force you. you have already decided not to agree with me.


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> Why would you not want those 3000 guys to become martyrs? They must be with their 72 virgins by now and hopefully happy and exhausted.
> 
> The must be cheering Dostum, Blair and Bush from Hell.
> 
> Btw you still have to prove that your story was true as the prison was run by NA not ISAF and your own pathetic article states that.



NA is under the cammand of ISAF , hence your justification have no value, you have to accept the responsibility of mass murder of 3000 Talaban POWs.


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> NA is under the cammand of ISAF , hence your justification have no value, you have to accept the responsibility of mass murder of 3000 Talaban POWs.



NA are Afghans and they paid back the Taliban in the same coin.

You have to provide proof that ISAF told the NA to execute them which you could not?

Go back to your masters young boy and come back with proof and don't forget to take your medication?


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> NA are Afghans and they paid back the Taliban in the same coin.
> 
> You have to provide proof that ISAF told the NA to execute them which you could not?
> 
> Go back to your masters young boy and come back with proof and don't forget to take your medication?



How it is possible , ISAF dont know about transportation of 8000 POWs?

I can judge your real mind set( Bania) even you are showing british flags?


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> How it is possible , ISAF dont know about transportation of 8000 POWs?
> 
> I can judge your real mind set( Bania) even you are showing british flags?



Can't debate call the poster an Indian and hope for some sympathy.


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## Vassnti

Fundamentalist said:


> Yup , i will join them only when they return from Afghanistan.



LOL and when you get to the line on the form, Have you expressed support or do you suport any terrorist organisations?

Your answer will be?


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Unity said:


> I have provided you tones of different sources about the atrocities of the taliban. if you dont accept it then i wont be able to force you. you have already decided not to agree with me.



Taliban implementing extreme Islamic governing over Afghanistan bring hatred of Afghanistani peoples also instability of neighbouring states. That is why Russia, India, Iran also China don't like Taliban!

But Western Whites don't be so happy!

Existance of USA / NATO hypocrites in Afghanistan also make hatred of Russia, Iran and China. 

Afghanistan cannot be the monitoring point for USA Hegemony.

Hope USA / NATO army and Taliban die together!


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## waraich66

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Taliban implementing extreme Islamic governing over Afghanistan bring hatred of Afghanistani peoples also instability of neighbouring states. That is why Russia, India, Iran also China don't like Taliban!
> 
> But Western Whites don't be so happy!
> 
> Existance of USA / NATO hypocrites in Afghanistan also make hatred of Russia, Iran and China.
> 
> Afghanistan cannot be the monitoring point for USA Hegemony.
> 
> Hope USA / NATO army and Taliban die together!



Right Talaban will also die if they dont support Allah , but be ready your horses to serve Islam as history may repeat itself , Mongolians conqoured and destroyed Bagdad was center of Muslim Empire then served Islam for many handred years.


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## FireFighter

This thread has been on the top for many days and I noticed that the title is more than enough to rile up many Indians and Americans. It's like reading being cursed at from their POV. LOL No wonder they flame it...

Also we can ascertain another fact that Taliban cannot and will not be defeated...at least not in this thread


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## waraich66

FireFighter said:


> This thread has been on the top for many days and I noticed that the title is more than enough to rile up many Indians and Americans. It's like reading being cursed at from their POV. LOL No wonder they flame it...
> 
> Also we can ascertain another fact that Taliban cannot and will not be defeated...at least not in this thread



I think not only Indian and American also Chinies and Russian are very much concerned about prolonged Afghan war more then WW1&WW2.

All logic and calculation are failing how such a poor nation dont have proper gear for war defeating greatest super power ever seen on face of earth with support of ex super powers UK,France,Germany,Italy etc.

ISAF is dead army but Talaban is alive army , simple statement for understanding of those who know what is *Iman* but difficult to understand for those who dont know what is *Iman*.


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## Always Neutral

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Taliban implementing extreme Islamic governing over Afghanistan bring hatred of Afghanistani peoples also instability of neighbouring states. That is why Russia, India, Iran also China don't like Taliban!
> 
> But Western Whites don't be so happy!
> 
> Existance of USA / NATO hypocrites in Afghanistan also make hatred of Russia, Iran and China.
> 
> Afghanistan cannot be the monitoring point for USA Hegemony.
> 
> Hope USA / NATO army and Taliban die together!



Presently its PA which is taking the brunt from the TTP and giving it equally a good hiding. So your wet dreams will have to wait.

Regards


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> I think not only Indian and American also Chinies and Russian are very much concerned about prolonged Afghan war more then WW1&WW2.
> 
> All logic and calculation are failing how such a poor nation dont have proper gear for war defeating greatest super power ever seen on face of earth with support of ex super powers UK,France,Germany,Italy etc.
> 
> ISAF is dead army but Talaban is alive army , simple statement for understanding of those who know what is *Iman* but difficult to understand for those who dont know what is *Iman*.



War is a concern to all Peace Loving nations and majority of the Afghani people but they understand that ISAF needs to be there till ANA can take over. Taliban days are over. The insurgency may take years to kill but the days of Taliban rule are over. Their last bastion in Pakistan is also now under threat otherwise Mullah brother would not singing so loudly.

Regards


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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Then why you are supporting mass murderers?????



Like i said before, when the Talib's own country folk support these "mass murderers", what reason do i have to say otherwise, it's their country, their people, their territory and their interests in question.........


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Always Neutral said:


> Presently its PA which is taking the brunt from the TTP and giving it equally a good hiding. So your wet dreams will have to wait.
> 
> Regards



British dxgs want to return Asia [Pakistan, India, Sri-Lanka, Nepal, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, China (Tibet / Hong Kong)] for imperalism again?

No way


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## Always Neutral

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> *British dxgs *want to return Asia [Pakistan, India, Sri-Lanka, Nepal, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, China (Tibet / Hong Kong)] for imperalism again?
> 
> No way



Is that the best repartee your Chinese masters taught you till date? Get an education child. Only ISAF and PA are operating of different sides of the border to get rid of Talibani scums and doing a damn good job. Keep your sniping to yourself and do a better job this time trying to cross the Taiwan Straits.


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## Icarus

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> British dxgs want to return Asia [Pakistan, India, Sri-Lanka, Nepal, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, China (Tibet / Hong Kong)] for imperalism again?
> 
> No way



Come on brother, lets not stray from the topic.......................We all know the age of imperialism has passed...........at this moment we are all on one side............


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Kakgeta said:


> Come on brother, lets not stray from the topic.......................We all know the age of imperialism has passed...........at this moment we are all on one side............



NATO / USA invaded Afghanistan not for anti-terrorism and democracy! (Even though Al Qaeda is definitely terrorist group!)

They only want to return Asia for their White World / Western domination! But their conspiracy will bankrupt!

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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> Come on brother, lets not stray from the topic.......................We all know the age of imperialism has passed...........at this moment we are all on one side............



Democracy is a modified tool of imperialism, UK and US have no natural resources left , they are hungry again for oil and gas and wanted to regain control of key sea and land trade routes.

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## Icarus

Fundamentalist said:


> Democracy is a modified tool of imperialism, UK and US have no natural resources left , they are hungry again for oil and gas and wanted to regain control of key sea and land trade routes.



If you had said that when Iraq was under U.S control, i would have definitely agreed with you, but Afghanistan has no significant reserves of any natural resources, their are claims of the mountains being rich in precious metals but it remains to be proven.


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## waraich66

Kakgeta said:


> If you had said that when Iraq was under U.S control, i would have definitely agreed with you, but Afghanistan has no significant reserves of any natural resources, their are claims of the mountains being rich in precious metals but it remains to be proven.



*WHY IS AFGHANISTAN SO IMPORTANT? *
John Foster, Toronto Star - A glance at a map and a little knowledge of the region suggest that the real reasons for Western military involvement may be largely hidden. 

Afghanistan is adjacent to Middle Eastern countries that are rich in oil and natural gas. And though Afghanistan may have little petroleum itself, it borders both Iran and Turkmenistan, countries with the second and third largest natural gas reserves in the world. (Russia is first.) 

Turkmenistan is the country nobody talks about. Its huge reserves of natural gas can only get to market through pipelines. Until 1991, it was part of the Soviet Union and its gas flowed only north through Soviet pipelines. Now the Russians plan a new pipeline north. The Chinese are building a new pipeline east. The U.S. is pushing for "multiple oil and gas export routes." High-level Russian, Chinese and American delegations visit Turkmenistan frequently to discuss energy. The U.S. even has a special envoy for Eurasian energy diplomacy. 

Rivalry for pipeline routes and energy resources reflects competition for power and control in the region. Pipelines are important today in the same way that railway building was important in the 19th century. They connect trading partners and influence the regional balance of power. Afghanistan is a strategic piece of real estate in the geopolitical struggle for power and dominance in the region. 

Since the 1990s, Washington has promoted a natural gas pipeline south through Afghanistan. The route would pass through Kandahar province. In 2007, Richard Boucher, U.S. assistant secretary of state, said: "One of our goals is to stabilize Afghanistan," and to link South and Central Asia "so that energy can flow to the south." Oil and gas have motivated U.S. involvement in the Middle East for decades. Unwittingly or willingly, Canadian forces are supporting American goals. 

The proposed pipeline is called TAPI, after the initials of the four participating countries (Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India). Eleven high-level planning meetings have been held during the past seven years, with Asian Development Bank sponsorship and multilateral support (including Canada's). Construction is planned to start next year. . . 

Ukraine is the main gateway for gas from Russia to Europe. The United States has pushed for alternate pipelines and encouraged European countries to diversify their sources of supply. Recently built pipelines for oil and gas originate in Azerbaijan and extend through Georgia to Turkey. They are the jewels in the crown of U.S. strategy to bypass Russia and Iran. 

The rivalry continues with plans for new gas pipelines to Europe from Russia and the Caspian region. . . Meanwhile, Iran is planning a pipeline to deliver gas east to Pakistan and India. Pakistan has agreed in principle, but India has yet to do so. It's an alternative to the long-planned, U.S.-supported pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan and India. 

A very big game is underway, with geopolitics intruding everywhere. U.S. journalist Steven LeVine describes American policy in the region as "pipeline-driven." Other countries are pushing for pipeline routes, too. . . 

John Foster is an energy economist and author of "A Pipeline Through A Troubled Land - Afghanistan, Canada, and the New Great Energy Game," published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. 
UNDERNEWS: WHY IS AFGHANISTAN SO IMPORTANT?

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## gambit

> Oil and gas have motivated U.S. involvement in the Middle East for decades.


Should be..."Oil and gas have motivated *GLOBAL* involvement in the Middle East for decades."

First it was the US invaded Iraq 'for oil'. Then when the current Iraqi government honored what Saddam Hussein promised Russia and China, now the US is in Afghanistan 'for oil'.

You guys need to make up your minds.


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## Always Neutral

Fundamentalist said:


> *WHY IS AFGHANISTAN SO IMPORTANT? *
> 
> The proposed pipeline is called TAPI, after the initials of the four participating countries (Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India).
> 
> *India cannot decide on a safer route thru Pakistan but now it will go for a route thru Pakistan and Afghanistan.*
> 
> . Construction is planned to start next year. . .
> 
> *Oh yes just in time for my Coronation as King of England. Wonder who planned it?*
> 
> Ukraine is the main gateway for gas from Russia to Europe. The United States has pushed for alternate pipelines and encouraged European countries to diversify their sources of supply. Recently built pipelines for oil and gas originate in Azerbaijan and extend through Georgia to Turkey. They are the jewels in the crown of U.S. strategy to bypass Russia and Iran.
> 
> *The have already completed it and don't need any more. If they want cheap oil better de stabilize some countries in South America.*
> 
> Meanwhile, Iran is planning a pipeline to deliver gas east to Pakistan and India. Pakistan has agreed in principle, but India has yet to do so.
> It's an alternative to the long-planned, U.S.-supported pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan and India.
> 
> *Sure India will bring the pipline till pakistan and then make it fly over the mountains without touching pakistani soil as an alternative to getting it from Iran.*
> 
> A very big game is underway, with geopolitics intruding everywhere. U.S. journalist Steven LeVine describes American policy in the region as "pipeline-driven." Other countries are pushing for pipeline routes, too. . .
> 
> John Foster is an energy economist and author of "A Pipeline Through A Troubled Land - Afghanistan, Canada, and the New Great Energy Game," published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.
> UNDERNEWS: WHY IS AFGHANISTAN SO IMPORTANT?



Good if it floats your boat that you dug up an article which in August 2009 predicted this year the pipline construction will start.

Now Mr. smarty pants does it cross your mind that Afghanistan has no oil so its in their benefit if

1. An oil pipline is built from Turkmanistan as it will give them cheap oil.
2. It will give jobs.
3. Will get valuable transit fees with no one making them pay for it.

Regards


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## Hammy007

i only support taliban because they are hope in pakistan's salvation, by which i mean that the mess which the colation forces nato and americans are spreading, taliban are the only way to stop them and kick them out because the pakistani govt and the amry consider these snakes as friends

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## Sino-PakFriendship

Always Neutral said:


> Good if it floats your boat that you dug up an article which in August 2009 predicted this year the pipline construction will start.
> 
> Now Mr. smarty pants does it cross your mind that Afghanistan has no oil so its in their benefit if
> 
> 1. An oil pipline is built from Turkmanistan as it will give them cheap oil.
> 2. It will give jobs.
> 3. Will get valuable transit fees with no one making them pay for it.
> 
> Regards




Because Russia and Iran, both are World larger petroleum production states, block the main route to petroleum fields of Central Asia, Afghanistan is the break point to this blockage. (Taliban and Western are ally before 911, Pakistan must keep good relationship with Western.)

USA wants to control Afghanistan as soon as possible, so she find an excuse to invade Afghanistan.

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## Icarus

mech-e said:


> i only support taliban because they are hope in pakistan's salvation, by which i mean that the mess which the colation forces nato and americans are spreading, taliban are the only way to stop them and kick them out because the pakistani govt and the amry consider these snakes as friends



And your good reason for hating them ????????


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## ASQ-1918

PWFI said:


> Personnely, i think Afgan talibans="Army of MAHADI" !



I don't understand why one would support Taliban? They are only evil and nothing to do with Islam. Without them, Afghanistan would not be the place it is now. 

And I doubt a band of drug dealers can be called as "Army of Mahdi".

I m 100% sure that most of the fighters there are for drug rather then their belief in Islam. If you look at the things they commit, you would easily see that anyway.

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## Icarus

There is an urdu saying that fits perfectly on my friends who support these terrorist:
"Door kay dhol suhane"(The drum sounds most melodious from afar)
You will notice that practically no one from Afghanistan supports these daemons, then when you move into Pakistan, you have a fraction of population which is sympathetic to the Taliban but people of Pakistani origin in europe, the americas and the middle east support these guys........................If you seriously have such a problem with the "Crusaders" than stop living in western countries and go help the Taliban.........


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## Icarus

mech-e said:


> i only support taliban because they are hope in pakistan's salvation, by which i mean that the mess which the colation forces nato and americans are spreading, taliban are the only way to stop them and kick them out because the pakistani govt and the amry consider these snakes as friends



Buddy, you live in England and you hate the English at the same time...........so either you are a hypocrite or you are there on some covert-operation for the Talibs, which one is it..........I have a hunch it's option 1.....................

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## Always Neutral

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Because Russia and Iran, both are World larger petroleum production states, block the main route to petroleum fields of Central Asia, Afghanistan is the break point to this blockage. (Taliban and Western are ally before 911, Pakistan must keep good relationship with Western.)
> 
> USA wants to control Afghanistan as soon as possible, so she find an excuse to invade Afghanistan.



You seem either to be a moron or your Chinese masters do not coach you properly. Did you read the article?

It talks about a pipline called TAPI sponsored by USA which benefits Afghanistan by way of cheap oil from Turkmenistan which is nearer than Russia. The Transit fees and development it will bring Afghanistan, puctures your balloon since there is no oil to loot for the US. Yes it may deprive GOP off some transit fees if the pipeline from Iran went through only Pakistan but both pipelines are presently non starters. I don't think china is funding barbaric regimes in Africa for fun.

Your stand exposes your lie and that of Fundamentalist that you want the afghans to benefit.

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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> Chinies and Russians hate imperialism and unlateralism of US , dont you know?
> 
> Enemy of enemy is my friend.


Your logic is flawed buddy. Russia is not Communist anymore and China is only Communist in governance not ideologically. There is no more 'imperialism is th evil' there. Moreover, Russia and China both have their own worries of Chechen and Uyighur militant organizations being trained by Taliban potentially in future.

Please educate yourself a bit more on international politics and strategy. It is connected to practicality and feasability; not based on fancy words of religious scholars.


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## waraich66

Always Neutral said:


> You seem either to be a moron or your Chinese masters do not coach you properly. Did you read the article?
> 
> It talks about a pipline called TAPI sponsored by USA which benefits Afghanistan by way of cheap oil from Turkmenistan which is nearer than Russia. The Transit fees and development it will bring Afghanistan, puctures your balloon since there is no oil to loot for the US. Yes it may deprive GOP off some transit fees if the pipeline from Iran went through only Pakistan but both pipelines are presently non starters. I don't think china is funding barbaric regimes in Africa for fun.
> 
> Your stand exposes your lie and that of Fundamentalist that you want the afghans to benefit.



Pipe line through Iran is not feasible , better try to understand great game of USA in region and stop blame game tactics.

The U.S. War in Afghanistan:
Another
Oil War?

by David Michael Smith
art/Eric Spitler

In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, President Bush declared that the United States would launch a "War on Terrorism." In early October, U.S. airplanes began bombing Afghanistan and providing assistance to the Northern Alliance and other groups opposed to the Taliban regime. Within a few months, U.S. troops and their Afghan allies had succeeded in ousting the Taliban and installing a new regime. Although Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants apparently escaped, U.S. officials proclaimed that a significant blow had been dealt to the al-Qa'ida network.

Traumatized and outraged by the horrific events of September 11, the majority of Americans supported the war in Afghanistan. Most people believed the Commander-in-Chief when he said that the replacement of the Taliban regime was required to safeguard our country against another catastrophic attack by al-Qa'ida forces. Even Princeton Professor Richard Falk, a longtime anti-war activist, wrote in The Nation ("Defining a Just War," Oct. 29, 2001) that the war in Afghanistan was "the first truly just war since World War II." But was it?

Since last October, thousands of people have participated in anti-war rallies, marches, and teach-ins in New York City, Washington, San Francisco, Houston, and other cities. People opposed to the war have made clear that they condemn the atrocity of September 11. But they also condemn the U.S. role in the deaths of thousands of Afghan people who had nothing to do with the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In the British Guardian ("The innocent dead in a coward's war," Dec. 20, 2001), journalist Seumas Milne estimated that about ten thousand Afghan soldiers may have died in the war and cited University of New Hampshire Professor Marc Herold's estimate that about four thousand civilians have also died.

Moreover, anti-war activists and progressive writers argue that the war in Afghanistan has been, in large part, another "oil war." The September 11 attacks provided a compelling pretext for military action against the al-Qa'ida forces in Afghanistan. But a growing body of research by journalists and scholars reveals that the Bush Administration's decision in favor of a regime change and all-out war in Afghanistan was significantly influenced by the desire to install a new government that would be more sympathetic to U.S. economic interests in Central Asia.

Although Afghanistan itself has no significant oil or natural gas reserves, it is strategically located in a region which does. As Eric Margolis observed in the Toronto Sun ("The U.S. is Determined to Dominate the World's Richest New Source," Jan. 13, 2002), Central Asia's Caspian Basin, over which sit the former Soviet states of Uzbekistan, Tajikstan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan, and Kazakhstan, is the world's "richest new source of oil." In the Jurist ("The Deadly Pipeline War," Dec. 8, 2001), Marjorie Cohn noted that some analysts have estimated the potential value of Caspian oil and natural gas reserves at four trillion dollars. Phil Gasper recalled in the Socialist Worker ("The Politics of Oil," Jan. 25, 2002) that the Middle East Economic Digest editors have described Central Asia as "the Middle East of the twenty-first century."

Even if this latter projection proves overly optimistic, Martha Hamilton concluded in a Washington Post article ("The Last Great Race For Oil Reserves," April 26, 1998) that the "largely untapped subterranean treasure" in the Caspian Basin may be "the third-largest reserve in the world, after the Persian Gulf and Siberia."

As Hamilton wrote, "The possibility of bringing those huge energy reserves to market has touched off a scramble by international oil and gas companies to get in on what may be one of the world's last great energy plays."

As Cohn pointed out in "The Deadly Pipeline War," Dick Cheney, then chief executive officer of the energy company Halliburton, told a meeting of oil industry leaders in 1998: "I can't think of a time when we've had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian."

U.S. government officials and energy company executives have been anxious to exploit what Daniel Yergin, renowned energy expert and author of The Prize (1993), has called "the number-one prize in world oil." However, the transportation of oil and natural gas extracted from the region has posed a serious challenge for them. The Caspian Pipeline Consortium, led by the Chevron Corporation, opened a new oil pipeline from Kazakhstan to Russia in October, 2001. But, as George Monbiot reported in the Guardian ("America's pipe dream," Oct. 23, 2001), policymakers in Washington have generally opposed the construction of pipelines through Russia or Iran. This is why U.S. energy companies and government officials have been so interested in Afghanistan.

As Ahmed Rashid explained in his book, Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil, and Fundamentalism in Central Asia (2001), U.S. policy toward Afghanistan during the past decade has been largely driven by corporate interests in the region's resources. Rashid noted that in 1995, the California-based UNOCAL Corporation began negotiating with the government of Turkmenistan to build oil and gas pipelines from that country through Afghanistan to Pakistani ports on the Arabian Sea. Soon after the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan in 1996, UNOCAL executives initiated discussions with them in order to secure the pipeline agreement.

According to Rashid, the Taliban's religious fundamentalism and harsh repression precluded normal diplomatic relations at the time but did not pose an insurmountable obstacle to a potential business deal. Strikingly, neither did the relocation of Osama bin Laden and numerous al-Qa'ida fighters to Afghanistan in 1996 and 1997. As Rashid recounted, UNOCAL Vice President Marty Miller and other company executives even wined and dined Taliban representatives in Houston in November 1997. Mullah Mohammed Ghaus and his Afghan colleagues stayed at an expensive hotel and visited the Houston Zoo and the NASA Space Center during their visit. Miller offered the Taliban representatives a lucrative contract and thought a formal agreement was imminent.

The Clinton Administration quietly supported UNOCAL's efforts, but these negotiations eventually failed. Taliban leaders finally decided against the pipeline deal, and Washington's willingness to do business with them ended after the al-Qa'ida bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998. President Clinton ordered cruise missile attacks on al-Qa'ida training camps in Afghanistan and even authorized efforts to assassinate bin Laden. At the same time, the U.S. tried to persuade Taliban officials to surrender bin Laden. As Monbiot has noted, notwithstanding these developments, U.S. business executives and government officials remained deeply interested in the potential of oil and gas pipelines through Afghanistan.

In May 2001, the mainstream media widely reported that the new Bush Administration had awarded the Taliban regime forty-two million dollars to support the eradication of opium production in Afghanistan. Less well known is the fact that, shortly after taking office, the Bush Administration had quietly resumed negotiations with the Taliban. In an important new book, Bin Laden: The Forbidden Truth (2001), French authors Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie have revealed that the Bush Administration worked long and hard to "decouple" bin Laden from the Taliban and lay the foundations for U.S. diplomatic recognition and pipelines for oil and natural gas.

Brisard and Dasquie have drawn on numerous sources, including discussions with John O'Neill, the former FBI Deputy Director who retired in July 2001. Ironically, O'Neill then became security director for the World Trade Center, where he died in the September 11 attacks. According to the authors, O'Neill resigned from the FBI because the State Department had continually blocked his investigation into al-Qa'ida's roots in Saudi Arabia. The authors report that O'Neill bitterly complained about the ability of the U.S. oil companies and their State Department allies to thwart an investigation that might offend the Saudi royal family and jeopardize U.S. economic interests in that country.

Brisard and Dasquie's account of the negotiations between the Bush Administration and the Taliban between February and August 2001, provides a helpful framework for understanding the eventual U.S. decision to topple the Afghan regime after the tragedy of September 11. The authors have explained that Washington saw the Taliban as a potential partner who could provide stability in Afghanistan and benefit from the construction of pipelines by U.S. corporations. But, in a series of meetings in Washington, Islamabad, and Berlin, U.S. officials demanded that the Taliban surrender bin Laden and invite other Afghan political forces to join their government.

When the Taliban equivocated over and eventually refused these demands, U.S. officials threatened to take military action against them. As Brisard revealed in an interview in Paris, at one point in the negotiations, these officials told the Taliban, "Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs." As Jonathan Steele and his colleagues reported in the Guardian ("Threat of US strikes passed to Taliban weeks before NY attack," Sept. 22, 2001), U.S. representatives told Russian, Iranian, and Pakistani diplomats at a mid-July meeting in Berlin that Washington was seriously contemplating this option. Although these U.S. officials have since denied making such a threat, former Pakistan Foreign Minister Niaz Naik, who was present at the meeting, confirmed their remarks in an interview with the Guardian reporters.

Is it a coincidence that the deadliest terrorist attacks in U.S. history occurred just several weeks after negotiations with the Taliban broke down? Perhaps. But Brisard and Dasquie have speculated that the prospect of U.S. military action against Afghanistan may have led bin Laden to approve the massive assault on New York City and Washington. Similarly, Steele and his colleagues have raised the possibility that bin Laden "was launching a preemptive strike in response to what he saw as U.S. threats." Other analysts have suggested that bin Laden may have authorized such a "preemptive strike" because he feared that the Taliban might finally accede to Washington's demands and try to force him to leave Afghanistan.

Although such speculation cannot be confirmed, it seems clear that long-standing U.S. economic interests in pipeline construction played a major role in the U.S. government's decision in favor of a regime change and all-out war in Afghanistan. Notably, as Shaun Casey emphasized in the Boston Globe ("Ethics of This War Have Yet to be Spelled Out," Oct. 11, 2001) and Stephen Zunes pointed out in the San Jose Mercury News (" U.S. Military Response is Wrong -- And It Won't Work," Oct. 12, 2001), there has never been any evidence of the Taliban regime's involvement in the attacks on the U.S. As John Pilger remarked in the British Daily Mirror ("Hidden Agenda Behind War on Terror," Oct. 29, 2001), the Bush Administration knew well before the Pentagon's first bombs began falling on Afghanistan that the attacks of September 11 were planned in Britain and the United States, and that none of the actual perpetrators were Afghan nationals.

As Howard Zinn observed in The Progressive ("A Just Cause, Not a Just War," December 2001), the U.S. government rejected the alternative of turning to international law, diplomacy, and limited multinational military action in order to bring al-Qa'ida forces to justice. As Zinn has noted, the U.S. government also rejected the Taliban regime's offer to surrender bin Laden for trial in a third country after receiving evidence of his involvement in the September 11 atrocity. As Phil Gasper wrote in the International Socialist Review ("Afghanistan, the CIA, bin Laden, and the Taliban," November-December 2001), the Bush Administration's refusal to seriously consider these options revealed that the overthrow of the Taliban and the installation of a new, more business-friendly regime had already been designated as primary objectives of the impending war.

In his book Resource Wars: The New Landscape of Global Conflict (2002), Professor Michael Klare of Hampshire College has acknowledged that one purpose of "Operation Enduring Freedom" was to "capture and punish those responsible for the September 11 attacks." But Klare has explained that

a second objective was "to consolidate U.S. power in the Persian Gulf and Caspian Sea area, and to ensure continued flow of oil." As Klare has emphasized, while this latter objective "may get far less public attention than the first, this does not mean it is any less important."

In a report released just days before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the U.S. Energy Information Administration described Afghanistan as a significant "potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from Central Asia to the Arabian Sea." However, the report noted that the potential construction of oil and natural gas pipelines has "been undermined by Afghanistan's instability." As Monbiot has written, "Given that the U.S. government is dominated by former oil industry executives, we would be foolish to suppose that such plans no longer figure in its strategic thinking." Indeed, the way in which the Bush Administration sought to "capture and punish" the al-Qa'ida forces in Afghanistan was significantly influenced by its commitment to promoting U.S. economic interests and power in the region.

Gore Vidal argues in his new book, Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace (2002), that the drive for profits and power are central to the Bush Administration's so-called "War on Terrorism." Vidal writes,

"We need Afghanistan because it's the gateway to Central Asia, which is full of oil and natural gas...That's what it's all about. We are establishing our control over Central Asia."

Many Americans may not want to believe that such economic motives could play so important a role in U.S. foreign policy. But developments in the aftermath of the war in Afghanistan make it difficult to deny journalists Jim Hightower and Phillip Frazer's observation that "War is politics by other means, and politics is business, and oil is very big business."

As Hightower and Frazer concluded in their book The Hightower Lowdown (January, 2002), the tragedy of September 11 and the subsequent war in Afghanistan "put the U.S. pipeline plans back on track." Hightower and Frazer cited a remarkable article in the Pakistani Frontier Post (Oct. 10, 2001). This article reported that, though the U.S. war against the Taliban had barely begun, U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain had already informed the Pakistan government that, "in view of recent geopolitical developments," the negotiations for a pipeline through Afghanistan would be revived.

After the Taliban regime collapsed, the Bush Administration hand-picked Hamid Karzai to head the new Afghan government and named Zalmay Khalilzad, an Afghan-American, as its new special envoy to the Karzai government. As Richard Neville pointed out in the Australian Sydney Morning Herald ("Beyond Good and Evil," April 15, 2002), both Karzai and Khalilzad are former consultants to UNOCAL. Eric Margolis has disclosed in the Toronto Sun ("America's New War: A Progress Report," Dec. 9, 2001) that Karzai is also a former "asset" for the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency. As Salim Muwakkil wrote in the Chicago Tribune ("Pipeline Politics Taint U.S. War," March 18, 2002), the "rise to power" of these two former UNOCAL employees will "make things even smoother" for the resumption of the pipeline project in Afghanistan.

As Daniel Fisher reported in Forbes Magazine (Feb. 4, 2002), "It has been called the pipeline from hell, to hell, through hell" but "now, with the collapse of the Taliban, oil executives are suddenly talking again about building it." To be sure, the giant U.S. energy corporations are unlikely to make major investments in the project until the new Afghan regime proves able to suppress the outbreaks of violence among the various warlords' forces and any military challenge from resurgent Taliban fighters. This is certainly one reason why U.S. and British troops in Afghanistan are struggling to piece together a viable Afghan national army that can defend the new regime.

In the meantime, Karzai has already made clear that his government fully intends to work closely with neighboring countries and U.S. oil companies to reap the immense profits from the transport of Caspian Basin oil and natural gas. On Feb. 8, 2002, Karzai visited Pakistan and joined with General Pervez Musharraf in pledging "mutual brotherly relations" and cooperation "in all spheres of activity." As the Irish Times reported on Feb. 11, 2002, Karzai announced that he and Musharraf had discussed the proposed Central Asian pipeline project "and agreed that it was in the interest of both countries."

The mounting U.S. military presence in Afghanistan and other Central Asian countries may enable Chevron, Exxon-Mobil, UNOCAL, and other giant corporations to lay claim to "the number-one prize in world oil." But the extension of U.S. military power and economic domination into this region comes with very grave risks. As hundreds of millions of people in Central Asia and the Middle East watch their oil and natural gas being extracted and transported for the profit of Western companies, the prospects for a massive, violent backlash against the U.S. and its client regimes are likely to grow. As horrific as the September 11 attacks were, they may only be the beginning.

David Michael Smith is a professor of government at the College of the Mainland in Texas City, Texas. His e-mail is Dsmith@com.edu. &#8226;

Email your feedback on this article to editor@impactpress.com. 

http://www.impactpress.com/articles/junjul02/oil6702.html

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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> Pipe line through Iran is not feasible , better try to understand great game of USA in region and stop blame game tactics.



It doesnt matter what is feasible and what is not. There is one thing for sure that stability and peace will definately benefit Afghansitan unlike war which will ruin it. If there is stability and peace then there will be every chance and opportunity of development and progress. In west and North of Afghanistan there is peace, go and see Herat and Balkh provinces how much they are ahead from the other cities, they even are better than the capital.


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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> Pipe line through Iran is not feasible , better try to understand great game of USA in region and stop blame game tactics.


YOU better stop blinding yourself with hatred for someone who hasn't done what you think they are doing and look at the situation with your own eyes. And yeah, throw away the religious glasses that you see the world with. 
You so happily criticize American invasion 'against Afghans' whereas it is strictly against Taliban terrorists but you conveniently skip off the questions about the inhuman acts that Taliban committed against Afghans in their own country... why do you do that? If the Americans wanted to just wipe Afghanistan out like a bunch of barbarians, don't you think their Minutemans and Tridents would be doing the job with conventional warheads rather than them wasting thousands of soldiers in Afghanistan? For once use your common sense.

Only then, you will realize that the world runs on practicality, whether it is Europe, China, Turkey, Germany, USA or India.... Not on the basis of religion that is supposed to be a divine communication between a person and God. Do you know why *HALF THE CONFLICTS* arise around the world? 

Because people *LIKE YOU* bring the religion out of your place of worship and in a two-entity dialog try to stuff everyone. Keep religion in your house and mosques rather than in every single aspect of life and see how the world becomes a peaceful place. Obsession with anything is not good.


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## waraich66

Parashuram1 said:


> YOU better stop blinding yourself with hatred for someone who hasn't done what you think they are doing and look at the situation with your own eyes. And yeah, throw away the religious glasses that you see the world with.
> You so happily criticize American invasion 'against Afghans' whereas it is strictly against Taliban terrorists but you conveniently skip off the questions about the inhuman acts that Taliban committed against Afghans in their own country... why do you do that? If the Americans wanted to just wipe Afghanistan out like a bunch of barbarians, don't you think their Minutemans and Tridents would be doing the job with conventional warheads rather than them wasting thousands of soldiers in Afghanistan? For once use your common sense.
> 
> Only then, you will realize that the world runs on practicality, whether it is Europe, China, Turkey, Germany, USA or India.... Not on the basis of religion that is supposed to be a divine communication between a person and God. Do you know why *HALF THE CONFLICTS* arise around the world?
> 
> Because people *LIKE YOU* bring the religion out of your place of worship and in a two-entity dialog try to stuff everyone. Keep religion in your house and mosques rather than in every single aspect of life and see how the world becomes a peaceful place. Obsession with anything is not good.



I respect your concern for peace , but try to understand surgery is not solution for Afghanistan , US general are fully convinced at this point that major reason of failure is misunderstanding between the Talaban/Tribes and ISAF.

Please dont try to grow mango tree at -10 Deg C ,Islam is not only religion it is way of life , Muslims should spend their life under certain limitations which is not possible in secular society or democratic laws which ISAF wanted to implement with force.

You need to first learn basic fundamentals of Islam then you could understand my point.

ISAF and family of nation should try to solve the root of terrorism which is Palestine conflict then only myth of Al Qaeda will die automatically , only one group known as Salafi believe on force implementation of Islam , 99.9&#37; muslims are against their idealogy.Why should Talaban be blamed or punished for sins of Al Qaeda?

All 9/11 attacker were Arabs not Talaban , you dont have any concern about them, why?

May be because they have oil wealth ?

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## Sino-PakFriendship

Always Neutral said:


> You seem either to be a moron or your Chinese masters do not coach you properly. Did you read the article?
> 
> It talks about a pipline called TAPI sponsored by USA which benefits Afghanistan by way of cheap oil from Turkmenistan which is nearer than Russia. The Transit fees and development it will bring Afghanistan, puctures your balloon since there is no oil to loot for the US. Yes it may deprive GOP off some transit fees if the pipeline from Iran went through only Pakistan but both pipelines are presently non starters. I don't think china is funding barbaric regimes in Africa for fun.
> 
> Your stand exposes your lie and that of Fundamentalist that you want the afghans to benefit.




Lie? Just a joke!

Don't say Britain + US invasion of Afghanistan for democracy!

You bastards are for Geopolitics!

Afghanistan is a good location for Britain + US to monitor Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Iran.

Divide-and-Govern policy is your British bastards to maintain your influence on the World!

Afghanistan is a point for your bastards (Britain + US) to disunite and destabilize Asia (Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Iran)






We must defeat British and US imperialism (&#33521;&#32654;&#20841;&#24093.

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## aimarraul

this war will never end because neither side have pure motives .Neither side will win but civilian suffer, just let the U.N clean up the mess


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## waraich66

aimarraul said:


> this war will never end because neither side have pure motives .Neither side will win but civilian suffer, just let the U.N clean up the mess



This is not conventional war , it is war of ethics and idealogy and faith , UN is helpless , I think this war is never ending war, Talaban should also shift this war to their countries , only then they will come to peace table.


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## Ahmad

Fundamentalist said:


> This is not conventional war , it is war of ethics and idealogy and faith , UN is helpless , I think this war is never ending war, Talaban should also shift this war to their countries , only then they will come to peace table.



this is a war of proxy, taliban are just used as a result it is afghans who suffer.


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## All-Green

mech-e said:


> i only support *taliban* because they are hope in *pakistan's salvation*, by which i mean that the mess which the colation forces nato and americans are spreading, taliban are the only way to stop them and kick them out because the pakistani govt and the amry consider these snakes as friends



After this much unrest and unprecedented loss of innocent life, much of it which is justified by TTP and even owned by themselves as part of Jihad, you attribute our salvation with Taliban like mentality which enables a group to do anything to others in the name of Islam?

The extremely intolerant set of views held by Taliban have no place in a country like Pakistan and can in no way positively contribute to the cause of Pakistan, leave alone salvation of Pakistan!
The way this whole Taliban movement has evolved and spiraled out of control, it is a shield which can be wielded by any criminal mafia and terrorist group to wage war against a state and that has been proven in case of TTP to our utmost grief.

We need a modern reformist Pakistan which does not let people abuse Islam and honors the vision of Jinnah.
The people of Pakistan never wanted a Mullah rule and will never support it.
Taliban like movements will never ever bring anything positive to Pakistan and Pakistanis.

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## waraich66

Unity said:


> this is a war of proxy, taliban are just used as a result it is afghans who suffer.



US know very well who are supporting Talaban indirectly .


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## Sino-PakFriendship

aimarraul said:


> this war will never end because neither side have pure motives .Neither side will win but civilian suffer, just let the U.N clean up the mess



UN can do nothing


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Always Neutral said:


> Is that the best repartee your Chinese masters taught you till date? Get an education child. Only ISAF and PA are operating of different sides of the border to get rid of Talibani scums and doing a damn good job. Keep your sniping to yourself and do a better job this time trying to cross the Taiwan Straits.



What goes around, comes around!

USA / NATO army and Taliban are destined to lose together!


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## Solomon2

All-Green said:


> The extremely intolerant set of views held by Taliban have no place in a country like Pakistan and can in no way positively contribute to the cause of Pakistan, leave alone salvation of Pakistan!


They may contribute to "the cause of Pakistan", but perhaps not its salvation. 

I recall the Sauds employed bezerkers - the Ikhwans - in their conquest of Arabia. When the Ikhwans became uncontrollable, the Sauds used modern weaponry - armored cars and British-piloted aircraft - to eliminate the Ikhwans. How different is Pakistan's current situation?


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## Parashuram1

Fundamentalist said:


> I respect your concern for peace , but try to understand surgery is not solution for Afghanistan , US general are fully convinced at this point that major reason of failure is misunderstanding between the Talaban/Tribes and ISAF.
> 
> Please dont try to grow mango tree at -10 Deg C ,Islam is not only religion it is way of life , Muslims should spend their life under certain limitations which is not possible in secular society or democratic laws which ISAF wanted to implement with force.
> 
> You need to first learn basic fundamentals of Islam then you could understand my point.
> 
> ISAF and family of nation should try to solve the root of terrorism which is Palestine conflict then only myth of Al Qaeda will die automatically , only one group known as Salafi believe on force implementation of Islam , 99.9&#37; muslims are against their idealogy.Why should Talaban be blamed or punished for sins of Al Qaeda?
> 
> All 9/11 attacker were Arabs not Talaban , you dont have any concern about them, why?
> 
> May be because they have oil wealth ?





> Please dont try to grow mango tree at -10 Deg C ,Islam is not only religion it is way of life , Muslims should spend their life under certain limitations which is not possible in secular society or democratic laws which ISAF wanted to implement with force.



No faith has remained the same as it was thousands of years back. Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism etc also have their tenets which are basically the same as they were thousand(s) of years back. However, there has to be something called evolution. As man evolves, his mindset, surroundings, thinking, interpretation etc also evolves. This year when a baby is born, he/she is born with a much different set of characteristics than a baby born last year. This is evolution. Every religion has had dark ages.

Christianity had those witch hunting and other meaningless stuff, Judaism also had certain principles that were eliminated during evolution, Hinduism had the social evil of casteism etc. But over time, they evolved. Certain practices of ancient times is not possible and therefore has to be eliminated.

This trait is shown by Turkey and other such countries that have evolved over time and eliminated fanaticism. If you don't choose to evolve, how do you call rest of the world as not flexible or rigid? Isn't this wrong?

Evolution of man and his faith/thinking/mindset etc is a natural process that cannot be stopped. Those who have refused to evolve, have perished in the history. While maintaining the basic principles of any ideology is right, evolving it with time is essential. 

For example, many of your fellow Muslims here are opposed to your mindset; why do you think that is? Because they know what is important for their evolution and despite being open-minded, they retain their faith without breaking any of it tenets. 

Blaming everyone that doesn't agree with you including your fellow Muslim countrymen, of having "Zionist" doesn't help at all. You are denying a natural process which God Himself has created. Taliban are doing the same. If this was an untold invasion of some country like say Kuwait, or Tonga or Fiji or some other country, I assure you, EVERY country in UNO will object to US invasion and force them to withdraw.

However, Taliban are guilty of crimes against Afghans, minorities, fellow Muslims etc. The recent beheading of innocent Sikhs in your country by similar fanatics is a shining example. Just because these poor people didn't pay them , they were brutally murdered. Now tell me, was this just? The Afghan Taliban are no different and over the period of their rule, have done such numerous atrocities on innocent Afghans, both Muslims and non-Muslims.

No religion teaches violence and if Taliban are hiding behind the religious curtain, then it should be people like you who deem themselves religious to actually be the first to attack Talibans for giving your faith a wrong image and bad name rather than glorifying them and further antagonizing the world community while confirming their misconceptions.

Either you aren't so aware of your faith or you have more political interests rather than considering your religion seriously. Afghans have the right to decide what is in their country and so far Afghan government has not demanded an expulsion of ISAF from the UNO off their land. 

Taliban is guilty of abetting in terrorist activities and giving refuge to terrorists from foreign countries. This act itself is guilty enough to mark them as enemies.


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## Parashuram1

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> UN can do nothing


Actually, UN is the only one that can do *everything*. Pray tell me what do you imply by your statement. That reason why your country (I assume you are originally a Chinese?) still considers its move to get rid of Taiwan in UN and replace it. If UNO was so relevant, why did your government so desperately seek a permanent seat?

What can China do anything in Afghanistan scenario if UNO's other P5 don't approve? Nothing. Neither is China strong enough to take on Taliban single-handedly without needlessly flattening the entire country with bombs, thereby killing civilians.

Afghan war is not about bombing Afghanistan to stone age (sadly it isn't really that far from that) from aerial bombers and missiles;it is about being able to separate innocent civilians from the similar ethnic/faith sharing Taliban that are almost impossible to detect for foreign eyes. If it was bomb-combing that was needed, Don't you think NATO has enough bombers alone to do the job? If you actually think manpower and bombing alone is going to get you to end Taliban single-handedly, you are just too full of national pride to see the situation. The manpower provided by ISAF is sufficient for Afghanistan operations. From my understanding of infantry operations,

I personally think the reason for ISAF's headaches in Afghanistan is because they refused to listen to experienced countries in the region on developing a joint-combat strategy in the early years; not due to "Divine help" that some people assume Taliban terrorists to be getting.

Russia's experience in Afghanistan could have been a valuable input to the US military along with the Indian Army's tremendous experience in mountain warfare in Asian conditions. I don't remember which journal this was mentioned in, but please do try searching it up.

There was even a proposal to setup a joint-study programme between USA/NATO, Russia, Central Asian states and India for carefully re-thinking the war strategy in Afghanistan. However, American over-confidence I daresay and NATO's apprehension on cooperating with Russia led to abandonment of this study and despite repeated reminders from Moscow and New Delhi, this was not taken into view. For the ISAF troops, unfamiliar terrain, high altitude combat, geographical disadvantage etc all came together and this was realized only after 7 years had been wasted.

This is one of the few logical reasons I feel that are possible for today's NATO's troubles. And UN alone can clean it up


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